# Cayin HA-300MK2 (2022) TOTL Transformer coupled Direct Heated Triode Tube HeadAmp (Page 91)



## Andykong (Jun 22, 2022)

*Cayin HA-300MK2  
Transformer Coupled Direct Heated SET Class A Balanced Driven Vacuum Tube Headphone Amplifier*

The Cayin HA-300MK2 is finally here. The new Cayin flagship vacuum tube headphone amplifier is scheduled to debut at *CanJam Singapore 2022*. Like its predecessor, the HA-300MK2 is a Class A Transformer-coupled headphone and speaker Single-ended Triode Amplifier (SETA). It uses a matched pair 300B Direct Heated Triode as output tube and a matched pair of 6SN7 as driver tube. The tube amplification circuit is operated in Single-ended, that’s why it is referred to as SETA, and then feed to a pair of output transformers for single-ended headphones, XLR-4 and 4.4mm balanced headphone output, and one set of speaker terminals.

The suggested retail price of HA-300MK2 is *US$4,399*, and it will be widely available by *April 2022.*







*1. The irresistible 300B Direct Heated Triode*

A lot of tube enthusiasts consider the Directed Heated Triode (DHT) as the holy grail of vacuum tubes for audio applications. DHT refers to Triode tubes that use the cathode as the filament and will heat up the cathode directly during operation. These can be considered as the minimal approach to amplification and have a huge following, especially among Japanese and Chinese audiophile communities. There is a long list of vacuum tubes belonging to this family, but for modern audio applications, the more commonly used DHT is 45, 2A3, 300B, 845, and 211, and 300B is probably the most well-known and sought-after DHT in the audiophile community.

The 300B offers an attractive tonal characteristic that is very close to the dream of audiophiles. It has a prominent full-body midrange, harmonically rich with unforced details that bring out the best of an acoustic instrument, and the holographic presence that how the singer (or the band) appeared to be directly there in front of you. Technically, 300B offers very high linearity during amplification. This probably accounts for the natural presentation and excellent low-level details that re-created the presence that brings us closer to our music.

Cayin adopts a matched pair of *Gold Lion Genelex PX300B *as output tube for HA-300MK2.   This is a low-noise audio triode that offers a very decent frequency extension with a natural, sensible and realistic sound signature. This tube is considered to be an excellent upgrade tube by many 300B users and has been called the best “Common Man” 300B tube. 

For more detail about 300B Direct Heated Triode in HA-300MK2, please check *HERE*.








*2.   SETA, a Purist’s One-way Ticket *

Single-ended Triode Amplifier (SETA) is a vacuum tube-based design that uses a single-triode tube per channel to produce output without splitting the musical signal's plus/minus parts in each channel. In contrast, a push/pull amplifier, which uses a pair (or more) of tubes, splits the plus/minus of the music signal, then it has to put them back together to form the complete musical wave in each channel. ......The perceived high sonic quality is mainly attributed to the simplicity and minimalist approach of the circuits involved, as well as the triode vacuum tubes that are typically used. One SET aficionado describes it as "a Zen simplicity to reproduce the complexity of music. Less is more."

Cayin recognized the beauty of SETA and has devoted a lot of resource to develop dozens of SETAs in our history. HA-300 and HA-300MK2 employs the same 2-stage single-ended amplification with 6SN7 as driver tube. It will boost the input signal to the appropriate level so that the 300B output tube will perform its second stage amplification at a very linear condition. In simple terms, driver tube amplifies signal voltage while output tubes amplify current.

Cayin always use 6SN7 as driver tube when we use 300B as output tube. Chris Marten called this combination “legendary in audiophile circles” in his HA-300 review (HiFi+ July 2018, issue 161, page 69-72). For the HA-300MK2 implementation, Cayin uses a matched pair of *Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB *as driver tube for almost the same reason as Genalex Gold Lion PX300B. This is a super linear, low noise high performance, highly reliable and natural sounding driver tube for SET amplification.

For more detail about SETA implementation in HA-300MK2, please check *HERE*.








*3.   Transformer Coupled Balanced Driven*

HA-300MK2 is a transformer coupled SETA. The output from the 300B output tube will drive a pair of proprietary output transformers which support both headphone and speaker outputs. If the 300B triode tubes are the spirit of the HA-300MK2, the output transformers are the flesh and blood of the amplifier. Cayin believes in this design. While there are different types of vacuum tube amplifiers in the market, we stick with transformer couple whenever possible, and that means literally all our desktop tube amplifiers are transformer coupled.

We understand the preference towards balanced headphones in Personal Audio hobby. For transformer coupled design, it is fairly straight forward to support both single-ended and balanced driven in the same circuit because our amplifiers are transformer coupled.  Since balanced headphone amplification is feeding opposing polarity signals to the left and right ear-cup of your headphone (in regardless of whether there is a dynamic driver or a planar inside).  We can achieve this through a specific method to wind the transformer so that the positive polarity (aka "hot") and negative polarity (aka "cold") are driven in opposite directions, hence deliver a fully balanced output from a single-ended tube amplification circuit. In other word, both single-ended and balanced headphone output are "original" output from the transformers, we don't take the single-end output and then convert it into balanced through wiring. .

HA-300MK2 offers two balanced headphone outputs: 4.4mm and XLR4 and we have optimize these two headphone outputs separately. The XLR4 output is a full-fetched output from output transformer while the 4.4mm winding is a level-matched, lower noise, lower power output with the same audio performance, making it more suitable for portable headphones.

For more detail about transformer coupled implementation in HA-300MK2, please check *HERE*.





*4.   Impedance Matched Headphone Outputs*

One of the very useful feature of Cayin vacuum tube amplifier is the impedance matched headphone output. HA-300 provides three headphone impedance settings, and the amplifier will optimized its output to handle the headphone loading according to the specified headphone impedance. Each impedance matched output is an independent secondary winding from the output transformers. The impedance settings are:


Recommended for​Target Impedance (XLR4 and 4.4mm)​Low (L):8Ω~64Ω​32Ω​Medium (M):65Ω-250Ω​64Ω​High (H) :251Ω~600Ω​300Ω​

Matching headphone impedance should produce a natural sound with well-defined bass reproduction. This is our recommended starting point but not necessarily your preferred sound signature, so you can start with the nearest setting to your headphone and then experiment with other settings.

For more detail about Impedance Matched Headphone Output in HA-300MK2, please check *HERE*.

*Back to Transformer*

To summarize, the output transformers of HA-300B are extremely complicated because we need a pair of Multiple Winding Output Transformers that takes cares of three headphone outputs (6.35mm, 4.4mm, XLR4) at primary winding, and supports three impedance matched headphone outputs, plus one set of speaker output, at secondary winding.

Transformer plays a vital role in transformer coupled vacuum tube amplifier. The design and implementation of transformers become an important part of our product tuning. The choice of transformer core, specification of copper wire in different parts of winding, and the winding instruction will affect the performance and sound signature of our product. This is a critical core competence that will maximize our product development capability, extend our product life cycle and enhance our operate efficiency.

Given Cayin’s scale of operation and devotion to build high quality tube amplifiers for our customers, Cayin bite the bullet and incorporated a small transformer plant in our facilities. We design and wind all the power supply and output transformers of our tube amplifiers in-house. This will allow the R&D department to have total freedom in specifying the winding instructions for our products, and we have total control on the material and craftsmanship on the transformer of our tube amplifiers.

*5.  Tube Regulated Outboard Power Supply*

The power supply for HA-300MK2 uses a custom-build toroidal power transformer. This is a special circuit to supply different gain stages, and we have used 4 pieces of NOS RCA 22DE4 rectifier tubes to convert incoming power source to DC current for cleanest power with minimum interference for the amplification circuit. These are one of the best version of 22DE4 tube and when used as rectifier tube in HA-300MK2, they can easily last heavy usage of 5 to 10 years. The four 22DE4 are supposed to work independently from each other. When we replace a 22DE4 rectifier tube, we can do that per piece without any matching process.   _Please check back later for more detail about the outboard power supply of HA-300MK2._

*Design and Features *

Single-ended Direct-Heated Triode design, brings out the charm of the tubes with natural and realistic music playback.
Driver Tube: matched pair of Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB
Output Tube: matched pair of Genalex PX300B
Rectifier Tube: 4 pieces of NOS RCA 22DE4
Support Balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) input, balanced input will transform to single-ended through a pair of input transformer.
The output from 300B will feed into a pair of custom design in-house manufactured high quality EI output transformer for speaker, single-ended (6.35mm) or balanced (4-pins XLR and 4.4mm) headphone output.
Choice of three impedance matched headphone outputs (L, M and H) to make sure HA-300MK2 can handle vast variety of headphones satisfactory.
Powerful headphone output, handle demanding headphones with ample headroom.
Custom make silica gel shock absorber as anti-shock buffer between critical tube components, chassis mainframe and tube socket, remove microphonic of 300B DHT effectively and provide quiet and realistic playback from sensitive headphones.
Minimize interference by reinforcing shielding of transformers, effective circuit layout and optimized circuit design
60sec startup delay circuit to enhance circuit protection and minimize pop noise when startup.
One set of speaker terminal as alternative output, can be used as an integrated speaker amplifier with 8 watt per channel Class A output.
Outboard power supply provides pure and steady power for the amplification circuit with minimum interference.
Custom design in-house manufactured high quality toroidal power transformer and EI output transformers.
High voltage power rectification with set of four NOS RCA 22DE4 tubes.
Two-boxes design with multi-stage tube regulated power supply reduce interference to signal amplification effectively through independently regulated power supply for voltage amplification circuit. Optimize power provision to all circuit and enhance audio performance significantly.
Point-to-point Wielding to ensure shortest signal path and enhance the transparency and refinement of audio performance
High-Precision JRC MUSES72320V electronic volume controller with 41-steps ALPS balanced potentiometer to provide low noise and accurate volume control.
Premium grade MultiCap coupling capacitor improves resolving capability and soundstage.
High quality shielded silver-plated cable for internal wiring, minimize interference during internal transmission.
Beautifully design and crafted VU meter
Lock On quick-release aviation grade copper connectors with silver plated Teflon umbilical cable for outboard power supply connection.
Detachable vacuum tube shielding cage, easy to detach and install.
*Comparison between the original HA-300 and the newly announced HA-300MK2*


*HA-300MK2**HA-300*Output TubeGold Lion Genelax PX300BFull Music 300B/nDriver TubeTung-Sol 6SN7GTBShuguang WE6SN7BAL Phone Output4.4mm, 4-pin XLR4-pin XLROutput TransformerWide bandwidth EI transformer with reinforcing shieldingWide bandwidth EI TransformerPower Supply TransformerWide bandwidth toroidal transformer with reinforcing shielding and lower rippleWide bandwidth toroidal transformerVolume ControlJRC MUSES72320V volume controller with 41-steps ALPS balanced potentiometerCustom-built 24 Stepa balanced potentiometerCoupling capacitorCustom AudioCapX MultiCapMundorf MCap SilverGoldFuse for Output TubeUser-replaceable on amplifier chassisNon-user-replaceable on circuit boardPower ConnectorsLocking quick-release aviation-copper connectorsMilitary-grade screw-on connectorUmbilical cableLow internal resistance low loss silver plated TeflonBraided multi-strand heavy-duty copper cable


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## Andykong (Feb 14, 2022)

Cayin first rose to prominence in the audiophile community with their tube amplifier.  It is natural to expect Cayin will come out with a statement tube headphone amplifier sooner or later.  After devoting 18 months of endless revision and exploration, Cayin will unveil the HA-300, a flagship S.E.T. Class A Headphone Amplifier at CanJam NYC 2018





If you are coming to CanJam NYC 2018, please check out our HA-300 demo systems in the *URIS* room, this is a dedicated room directly next to the main Boardway exhibit area. Cayin is sharing the room with Meze Audio and we shall exhibit our complete product line in a nice and quite environment.  Since Meze will also introduce their flagship planar headphone EMPYREAN at the same time,  the URIS room is definitely a showstopper that you shouldn't miss.




We shall provide more photo with design and technical details of HA-300 during the CanJam event, please stay tuned if you want to find out more about our new flagship tube headphone amplifier.


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## Dobrescu George

Woah, people visiting Canjam will surely have a blast!


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## alphanumerix1

I gotta admit that looks beastly. Eagerly awaiting specs and price.


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## omniweltall (Feb 13, 2018)

Do we know the price yet?


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## Sir Gaben

Subscribed...


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## mulder01

Gonna guess... 12 grand?


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## omniweltall (Feb 13, 2018)

Usually cayin products have good value. Hope it is something within common folks' reach.


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## Dobrescu George

omniweltall said:


> Usually cayin products havr good value. Hope it is something within common folks' reach.



Actually, Cayin is one of the biggest kings of High-End, only their budget items are budget, they are a well-respected company making some of the best ultra high-end items out there. Like Shanling 

You can check out more about their products here: 

https://cayin.com/


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## omniweltall

Dobrescu George said:


> Actually, Cayin is one of the biggest kings of High-End, only their budget items are budget, they are a well-respected company making some of the best ultra high-end items out there. Like Shanling
> 
> You can check out more about their products here:
> 
> https://cayin.com/


Hey, thanks for the info. Did not know that. I only know their IHA-6 and IDAC. Both priced pretty fairly. 

Time to unsubscribe. Probably this one is out of my reach too


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## Dobrescu George

omniweltall said:


> Hey, thanks for the info. Did not know that. I only know their IHA-6 and IDAC. Both priced pretty fairly.
> 
> Time to unsubscribe. Probably this one is out of my reach too



No need to unsubscribe, I think it will have amazing price / performance ratio, and there are many AMPs with large tubes yet fair priced. 

I don't know about those dandy looking meters tho, those look expensive


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## alphanumerix1

Dobrescu George said:


> No need to unsubscribe, I think it will have amazing price / performance ratio, and there are many AMPs with large tubes yet fair priced.
> 
> I don't know about those dandy looking meters tho, those look expensive



Doubt it, Looks like it will be be quite up there in price.

Im happy to be surprised though.


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## Sir Gaben

We can hope it will have a lower price tag then Woo Audio WA 5.


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## omniweltall

alphanumerix1 said:


> Doubt it, Looks like it will be be quite up there in price.
> 
> Im happy to be surprised though.


I am hoping to be surprised too. But usually in this hobby, the surprise is on the high side, not the other way. Crossing fingers.


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## Dobrescu George

Does Cayin make any desktop amps? I'd buy an amp for a bookshelf speaker setup only because it would look this badass


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## mulder01

Dobrescu George said:


> Does Cayin make any desktop amps? I'd buy an amp for a bookshelf speaker setup only because it would look this badass


?
This is a speaker amp too isn't it?  Judging by the output switch on the front...


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## Sir Gaben

mulder01 said:


> ?
> This is a speaker amp too isn't it?  Judging by the output switch on the front...


Yes it have outputs for speakers


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## Dobrescu George

mulder01 said:


> ?
> This is a speaker amp too isn't it?  Judging by the output switch on the front...



Dandy! 

I wanted to get into better speakers, and this might be an awesome start. 

Currently rocking an Edifier S1000DB, but they really lack some deep low end on the 45Hz and lower, so I will keep close track of this for when I decide to get a good speaker setup 



Sir Gaben said:


> Yes it have outputs for speakers



Thanks, I'm new to speakers


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## Andykong (Feb 21, 2018)

*CAYIN UNVEILS HA-300 FLAGSHIP TUBE HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER AT CANJAM NYC 2018*

*New York City, NY, February 16, 2018* – Leading audio manufacturer Zhuhai Spark Electronic Equipment Co., Ltd., marketing their Hi-Fi products under the name of Cayin, will introduce their latest Single End Triode (S.E.T.) Class A tube amplifier, HA-300, at CanJam NYC 2018, Uris Room, New York Marriott Marquis, New York City, from 17th to 18th February 2018




Bin Liang, CEO of Zhuhai Spark Electronic Equipment Co., Ltd., parent company of Cayin, said “This has been one of our longest and most intense projects in the last decade. We spent 450 days in R&D before the HA-300 was production ready. We underwent three major rounds of re-design and 17 rounds of optimization and refinements prototyping.  The HA-300 is developed around the 300B Triode Vacuum tube, aka the Dream Tube of audiophiles and tube enthusiasts. We have selected 6SN7 to pair with 300B for a push-pull signal amplification. This is a very familiar Class A single-ended amplification design that Cayin has extensive experience with in past 20 years. Yet, we have not taken it for granted and did our very best to develop a statement headphone amplifier that we are proud off.”

*Design Philosophy*

The HA-300 adopts the two stages single-end Class A amplification with balanced output design. The output of the 300B power tube will feed to a pair of output transformers for single-end or balanced output.  Being one of the biggest tube amplifier manufacturers in the world, Cayin designs and builds our transformers, making sure even the finest detail will be attended to. In the case of HA-300, the output transformer was specially winded to provide three set of impedance matched outputs at 8-64Ω, 65-250Ω, and 251-600Ω respectively, making it extremely versatile to match with a wide range of headphones in the market.



We also built an outboard power supply for HA-300.  On top of the in-house design, custom-build toroidal power transformer, we developed a special circuit to supply steady power independently to different gain stages. The voltage amplifier circuit will adopt an independent regulator design, and we shall deploy 4 pieces of NOS RCA 22DE4 as rectifier tubes.  This power supply design will deliver the cleanest power possible with minimal interference to the line signal amplification in the main Amplifier chassis.

On top of a 6.35mm singled-ended and 4-pin XLR balanced headphone output, the HA-300 has a set of speaker outputs so it can be used as a speaker amplifier delivering up to 8wpc Class A output.



*Specification*



 
*
Pricing and Availability*

The new tube amplifier is planned to launch in March 2018 worldwide. The suggested retail price is US$3999.

The HA-300 will be demonstrated at CanJam NYC from the 17th to the 18th February 2018.  Cayin will also display their complete line of Personal Audio products including the latest Android based Digital Audio Player N5ii and the completed i-Series three-piece desktop suit at this CanJam. Please visit us at the Uris room or contact Mr., Andy Kong to reserve a special press audition session.

*About Cayin*

Cayin was founded in 1993. While our products carry a distinctive cultural connotation and span over a very wide price range, we are devoted to developing the best sounding audio equipment at competitive prices.

We have developed over 400 products to date, ranging from CD players to speakers, all of which provide the same high-quality benchmark and attractive price to performance capabilities. Our tube amplifiers have been particularly well-received within the audio community because of this commitment.  With a spectacular track record of over 70 local and international awards, Cayin has grown into one of the largest audio tube amplifier development and manufacturing facilities in the world.

Cayin pays attention to detail because we believe this is what it takes to reproduce music naturally.  We might have a different agenda or employ different technologies for different products, but ultimately, we serve only one purpose: to move our audience with hi-fidelity.

We deliver music diligently, and we are prepared to go a long way for that.

With Cayin, your music will never be the same again.

For more information, please visit www.cayin.cn


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## alphanumerix1

Is there a reason SE puts out more power than balanced at M and H? Just curious.


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## omniweltall

alphanumerix1 said:


> Is there a reason SE puts out more power than balanced at M and H? Just curious.


Yes interesting indeed.


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## mulder01

Also SE on high is 5000 + 5400...
heyyyy


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## alphanumerix1

mulder01 said:


> Also SE on high is 5000 + 5400...
> heyyyy



Yeah strange


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## Andykong

Thanks for pointing out the typo mistake, the single-end output of High Impedance should be 5000mW + 5000mW, I have corrected the numbers in previous post already.

I am in LA airport right now, waiting for my transit plane back to Hong Kong, will post more photo from the CanJam event after I settle down, please stay tuned.


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## mulder01

But SE output is still more than balanced?


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## alphanumerix1

mulder01 said:


> But SE output is still more than balanced?



Look forward to reply quite curious.


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## Maxx134 (Feb 21, 2018)

I was at NYC CaJam and did not know about this amp before.

I did not know about mostmost other new amps either,
And was quite surprised of all the new tube headphone amps there...

Yet only two amps stood out to me at this event.

The first was the Viva 845 amp there(forgot name),
And then this amp.

Visually it looks better than pics, so I was expecting a price like the Viva amp.

$4k may not be cheap, but for what I saw and heard I preferred it over all the other amps at Canjam.

The amp had no problem making the Susvara sound well balanced, which is usually not the case.
Weaker amps would make the Susvara sound a bit laid back.

Very important to me is the Soundstage as well,
Because other amps therr were also powerfull, but less "large" sounding.

This Cayin just had a wonderful Soundstage.
It just sounded right.

there were other resolving tube amps I heard, Wich did all have excellent resolution,
 but had other issues which to me would not make them desirable for a keeper.
Issues like a bit too:
 Slightly lean
 Slightly Rich
 Slightly dark
 Slightly lifeless
 Slightly forward

I fully believe in system synergy and that they all could have been matched better or used better tubes or different bias points in their design.

Anyways this Cayin really step up the headphone amp game, handling the Abyss Phi, Diana and Susvara really well with stock tubes and I was very impressed.

Last NY CanJam I thought the woo waa33 was most impressive, but this time around I have to say this Cayin HA-300 was the jewel of the show.

What's funny is that I would never have heard just how good this amp is if not for Canjam.


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## grizzlybeast

will this be my endgame. I really like my Mogwai SE


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## Maxx134

grizzlybeast said:


> will this be my endgame. I really like my Mogwai SE


Mogwai is another incredible value, and the main difference I would say is the difference that is always said about DHT vs indirect heated tubes.

Between both amps,
Driver tube linearity is similar as they both having similar driver tubes.

It boils down to both  output tube, and output transformer sound.

The 300b tube type sonic characteristics has always been a desirable one, 
but the 6L6GC is also one of most desirable indirect tube types.

For you it would be incredibly difficult to decide, especially when you can perform upgrades on the Mogwai...

But in the long run in this hobby, it is usually DHT amps that are usually chosen as end game.

I have noticed that there has been a lacking market in tube headohone amps, 
And these new amps are a breath of fresh air,
Because in the past you basically had to go DIY to have a great tube headphone amp.

I love tube amps and I think the Mogwai is really sweet.
Yet I could not imagine an amp like this Cayin for this price.
Hats off to them.


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## grizzlybeast

Thanks. My Mogwai SE sounds even better than the Mogwai. Id love to hear this thing one day. It looks gorgeous as is to be expected.


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## grizzlybeast

.


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## Andykong (Feb 24, 2018)

Maxx134 said:


> I was at NYC CaJam and did not know about this amp before.
> 
> I did not know about mostmost other new amps either,
> And was quite surprised of all the new tube headphone amps there...
> ...





Maxx134 said:


> Mogwai is another incredible value, and the main difference I would say is the difference that is always said about DHT vs indirect heated tubes.
> 
> Between both amps,
> Driver tube linearity is similar as they both having similar driver tubes.
> ...



This is definitely the most detail impression of HA-300 in CanJam NYC 2018, thank you very much for visiting our demo room and writing up this informative sharing of our new headphone amplifier.

The Viva Egoista 845 is a gorgeous headphone amplifier and it sounds amazingly to my ears, it was my show stopper when I first come across it at Munich High-end show 2016. When you said the Viva Egoista 845 and Cayin HA-300 are the only two headphone amplifiers stood out in this event, we are truly flattered.

Some of the very difficult issues to use DHT in headphone application are noise and interference control.  When DHT are used for speaker application, the amplifier and transducer (i,e, the speakers) are placed 2m to 3m away from the users, that means the user will not be able to touch the amplifier while listening to the playback, and the background noise from the filament of DHT is not audible unless the user deliberately place their ear at a few inches from the transducer.  However, a DHT based headphone amplifier will need to tackle these problems seriously because the headphone transducer is so close to the ear that any low level noise will become audible, and the headphone amplifier is normally  placed at arm-length from user only, so when users are touching or tab on the amplifier, the DHT will pick up the interference and amplified  into the headphone directly.

That explained why DHT based headphone amplifier tends to over-build.


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## Andykong

grizzlybeast said:


> will this be my endgame. I really like my Mogwai SE





grizzlybeast said:


> Thanks. My Mogwai SE sounds even better than the Mogwai. Id love to hear this thing one day. It looks gorgeous as is to be expected.



I heard the Mogwai but not the SE in previous CanJam, they are  best bang for the buck at their price range, and I love their retro design.  There is not urgent upgrade need when you have a beautiful ampsandsound amp. on your table, but  I certainly want to read the impression of HA-300 from a old friend who understand our house sound and headphone amplifiers inside out.


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## Stereolab42 (Feb 24, 2018)

Looks like a worthy WA5 competitor... but I'm not a fan of the reflective finish. Hopefully it can be offered with a matte or black finish instead.


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## Maxx134 (Feb 24, 2018)

Andykong said:


> This is definitely the most detail impression of HA-300 in CanJam NYC 2018, thank you very much for visiting our demo room and writing up this informative sharing of our new headphone amplifier.


Not really as I did not mention about the appearance.



Stereolab42 said:


> Looks like a worthy WA5 competitor... but I'm not a fan of the reflective finish. Hopefully it can be offered with a matte or black finish instead.


You can see all the surfaces and the metal surface has like a glossy type coating or finish.

I am under-stating that this is the most expensive looking finish I have seen at the CanJam.

I have seen the other amps there with nice  thick paint, or dry metal look, or thin looking metal, or aluminum look, or black look, or wood trim and even leather surfaces.

Hands down the fit and finish of this Cayin amp looks the most richly expensive and gorgeous.
You have to see it in person.

I realize this have nothing to do with sound, and why I didn't mention it,
But it is hands down a most luxurious and gorgeous finish compared to the rest.
Hats off to them.


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## Maxx134

Andykong said:


> The Viva Egoista 845 is a gorgeous headphone amplifier and it sounds amazingly to my ears, it was my show stopper when I first come across it at Munich High-end show 2016. When you said the Viva Egoista 845 and Cayin HA-300 are the only two headphone amplifiers stood out in this event, we are truly flattered.


Resolution was on par...

Egoista had more taught dynamic hit and airy treble while the HA-300 had a richer bass and more substantial sparkle,
 so the Egoista was somewhat more lean and powerful in comparison.

Personally I don't think the 845 tube is as musical as the 300b tube,
so maybe why I preferred the HA-300,
 but thats a personal preference.

I did hear similar level of resolution with wa33 (which use ouput 2a3 tube) and also the  modwright amp (which by coincidence has the same model number HA300) using 300b also but using different driver tube which you cannot roll.

I would say stock tube choice on the Cayin was very well done also so you don't feel a need to roll tubes.


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## grizzlybeast (Feb 24, 2018)

Andykong said:


> I heard the Mogwai but not the SE in previous CanJam, they are  best bang for the buck at their price range, and I love their retro design.  There is not urgent upgrade need when you have a beautiful ampsandsound amp. on your table, but  I certainly want to read the impression of HA-300 from a old friend who understand our house sound and headphone amplifiers inside out.


 definitely, actually I am happy with my amp and do not have 4K right a way. But if I did have 4K right now of undedicated funds there is no question where it would be going to the HA300B


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## fhuang

Stereolab42 said:


> Looks like a worthy WA5 competitor... but I'm not a fan of the reflective finish. Hopefully it can be offered with a matte or black finish instead.




my guess they would sound very different.  different design and different rectifier.


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## fhuang

wonder if we can hear the amp at the cayin flagship shop here in hong kong


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## SteveM324

Will Cayin have this amp at Axpona?  I see that they're listed as one of the exhibitors.


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## Andykong

Maxx134 said:


> Not really as I did not mention about the appearance.
> 
> 
> You can see all the surfaces and the metal surface has like a glossy type coating or finish.
> ...



You really know your preference, that's interesting.

Cayin opt for a professional grade industrial design with most, if not all, of our desktop audio product, we are not lifestyle or artistic according to some reviewer, but we spend a lot of effort to improve our craftsmanship on metal work and finishing, and a lot of users has comment that seeing the real thing is very different from looking at the picture of our product, they can't appreciate the finishing by looking at our product photo but once they laid their hand on our product, they'll have very different opinion.

However, the market preference is going to a different direction.  Instead of the low-profile high quality approach that Cayin has rooted into, they prefer high-profile high quality approach as they draw more attention at show and social media.   I would like to quote the Viva egoista 845 as an example of that.  Every time I walk by the Viva booth, that really is a show stopper, and will draw a lot of "likes" if I post a picture of that amplifier on my social media.  Although it all comes down to preference eventually, but the market norm is in flavor to the high profile option.


----------



## Andykong

Maxx134 said:


> Resolution was on par...
> 
> Egoista had more taught dynamic hit and airy treble while the HA-300 had a richer bass and more substantial sparkle,
> so the Egoista was somewhat more lean and powerful in comparison.
> ...



Among the popular Direct head tubes (45, 2A3, 300B, 845, 211), there is a common belief among the tube enthusiasts that tubes with smaller output tends to be more musical, but the 845 and 211 is more flexible with speaker application, hence more well-received by audiophiles in general.  However, when we move into headphone application, even the 45 with 1wpc output is good enough for most headphones already (when implemented with a high quality output transformer).  Cayin has developed a lot of 300B based amplifiers over the years but we has relatively little experience with 45 and 2A3, that's why we picked 300B instead.  Our assessment also suggested that 300B, when implemented correctly, is strong enough to handle even the most difficult headphones, and that's why we selected the 300B as the base of our reference product.

We are most grateful to your comparison with HA-300 against other highly praised tube headphone amplifiers.  We were quite concern that our customer will feel uncomfortable when we jump from $1000 to $4000 in our headphone amplifier lineup.  Your comment has created more space for us to prepare for the launch of the HA-300, frankly we have to thank you for that as Cayin is probably a total blank to you before you walk into our demo room at Canjam NYC.


----------



## Andykong

SteveM324 said:


> Will Cayin have this amp at Axpona?  I see that they're listed as one of the exhibitors.



Yes, the HA-300 will be displayed at AXPONA.  

In fact, we are going to demo the HA-300 at CanJam Singapore and Munich High end show as well.


----------



## Andykong

Dave Hanson from Enjoythemusic.com has posted a fairly detail impression on HA-300 in his CanJam NYC show report.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/CanJam_NYC_2018/CanJam_2018_page3.htm

In addition to this, Mr. Hanson's impression of Meze Emperyon at Page 1, and Kennerton Thror at page 2 of the show report is also based on Cayin HA-300.


----------



## Maxx134

Andykong said:


> Our assessment also suggested that 300B, when implemented correctly, is strong enough to handle even the most difficult headphones, and that's why we selected the 300B as the base of our reference product.


 300b seems like a good choice,
as I felt it sounded a bit more musical over 2a3 (in my experience)..

Another area I was impressed here is with the Soundstage.
 I find it varies in other amps, yet this one had great Soundstage.

I actually heard less soundstage on some  other tube amps, (with a more closer presentation) at the canjam ( except for a few like the Viva amp.)

So thats why I mentioned about the HA-300 stock tube choice (& design) sounding great as is..
Not feel any need to roll tubes with it.


----------



## Allanmarcus

Wait, there already is an HA-300 headphone tube amp! Two companies using the same name is very confusing. I think modwright used it before Cayin.

http://www.modwright.com/products/ha300-headphone-amp.php


----------



## mulder01

That design...^ Can't decide if they tried too hard, or didn't try at all...


----------



## Andykong

mulder01 said:


> That design...^ Can't decide if they tried too hard, or didn't try at all...


You mean using external power supply is trying too hard?  That's interesting?!


----------



## mulder01

No I was talking about the modwright amp, visually


----------



## Andykong

mulder01 said:


> No I was talking about the modwright amp, visually



 I see, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Dan_D

Hi.. 

I'm interested in getting this amp. Do you offer or plan to offer in " black faceplate" ? I mean you can attract more customer with this option.


----------



## XVampireX

I like the general design, everything except the fence that blocks view from the tubes, what purpose is it for?


----------



## Allanmarcus

XVampireX said:


> I like the general design, everything except the fence that blocks view from the tubes, what purpose is it for?


If you are referring to the ModWright, I assume the fence is for aesthetics. It probably can be removed in order to swap the tubes.

I certainly did' mean to hijack this thread with the ModWright. It starts at $8000, BTW.

Back to the _Cayin_ HA-300. From what I've been able to determine, there are very few 300b headphone amps:

Woo WA5-LE: $3699 
Woo WA5: $5899 (plus $365-$1900 for option tube upgrades)
Cayin HA-300: $3,999 
ModWrite HA-300: $8000
ampsandsound Agatha: $3600-$4250

GemTune GP-01: $859 - ChiFi crap, but has VU meters!

Eddie Current Balancing Act: n/a new, ~$3500-$4000 used

I think Manley may have made a 300b headphone amp, but not anymore.


A couple of DIY options;


ELEKit with all upgrades and good, tubes: $2467 (DIY)

There are some older ELEKit amps too

Transcendent Sound "The Masterpiece": $699 + tubes

Any others?
So the pricing of the Cayin is right in line with the other major 300b players. This is a small club.

If anyone has impressions comparing any of these, it would be great to hear.


----------



## XVampireX

No.... I was referring to the FENCE of the HA-300 from the product that is referenced in this thread.... wth


----------



## Allanmarcus

XVampireX said:


> No.... I was referring to the FENCE of the HA-300 from the product that is referenced in this thread.... wth



Sorry, I wasn't sure. To me, the tubes are completely exposed on Cayin HA-300. From the front there is a sort of window frame look into the tubes. I assume that is prevent an accidental touching of the tubes, but more likely it's just for looks.


----------



## Rossliew

When is this amp ready for purchase?


----------



## Icenine2

This looks fabulous!


----------



## reklov

Rossliew said:


> When is this amp ready for purchase?



It on sales in China on Cayin Chinese webpage cn.cayin.cn and on Taobao:

【cayin/凯音 HA-300斯巴克真空管耳机功率放大器耳放胆放HIFI发烧】http://m.tb.cn/h.Wus9mXh 点击链接，再选择浏览器打开；或复制这条信息￥aO510LYq9VD￥后打开手淘[来自超级会员的分享]


----------



## Andykong

reklov said:


> It on sales in China on Cayin Chinese webpage cn.cayin.cn and on Taobao:
> 
> 【cayin/凯音 HA-300斯巴克真空管耳机功率放大器耳放胆放HIFI发烧】http://m.tb.cn/h.Wus9mXh 点击链接，再选择浏览器打开；或复制这条信息￥aO510LYq9VD￥后打开手淘[来自超级会员的分享]



If you can read Chinese, then you probably notice that the item is marked at NOT FOR SALE (*此宝贝已下架)* right now.

We want to make sure customers will have first-hand experience with this amplifier before they purchase this headphone amplifier., so the HA-300 will not be available through on-line sales channel in China for the moment.  We might change this practice later on, but for the moment, I seriously doubt if they can actually deliver the amplifier even after they take the money from you upfront.


----------



## Andykong

XVampireX said:


> No.... I was referring to the FENCE of the HA-300 from the product that is referenced in this thread.... wth



If you have the experience to handle the HA-300, you'll love the FENCE.  They make life a lot easier when you need to lift the HA-300 from table.


----------



## Andykong

Allanmarcus said:


> Sorry, I wasn't sure. To me, the tubes are completely exposed on Cayin HA-300. From the front there is a sort of window frame look into the tubes. I assume that is prevent an accidental touching of the tubes, but more likely it's just for looks.



The HA-300 comes with a set of protection grid, but for demo purpose, we'll remove the grid otherwise the auto-focus of the camera will focused on the grid and the vacuum tubes will be blurred badly.


----------



## Andykong

Rossliew said:


> When is this amp ready for purchase?



We are in the middle of first production batch, this will be 230V exclusively, and 80% were pre-sold beforehand.  We are reluctant to take any orders right now because we  need several units for internal  and show/event usage.

We have scheduled the second production batch in April, and this round will be a mixed 120V and 230V version, expect to ship out by late April or early May.


----------



## Andykong (Mar 6, 2018)

Allanmarcus said:


> If you are referring to the ModWright, I assume the fence is for aesthetics. It probably can be removed in order to swap the tubes.
> 
> I certainly did' mean to hijack this thread with the ModWright. It starts at $8000, BTW.
> 
> ...



This is a very interesting listing of 300B headphone amplifier, thank you very much as I was building a similar list as well.  So with the exception of the GemTune GP-01, HA-300 is actually an "entry-model" to the 300B headphone amplifier community. I wish I can quote this when someone email me about the "very high price" of HA-300 


Manly has a headphone amplifier MSK8 in their line up but that is not a 300B based amplifier and it is a fairly recent item.  I believe you are referring to the Neo Classic 300B preamp with headphone out, SPR at around US$6000.
https://www.ttvjaudio.com/Manley_Neo_Classic_300B_p/man0000069.htm


----------



## Andykong

Dan_D said:


> Hi..
> 
> I'm interested in getting this amp. Do you offer or plan to offer in " black faceplate" ? I mean you can attract more customer with this option.



Sorry, we don't have any plan to offer alternative color or finishing option.  You suggestion is more complicated then it sounds like because the current finish (of faceplate) does not involve any painting process, if we want ot make it black, or anodized to black colour, we are changing the metal process completely.  

Right now we are more concern on the production volume, and steps to improve the efficient of production, so any "alternative requirements" will not be considered in near future.


----------



## Dobrescu George

This amplifier looks like it would rock the world of many people, really liking what I read so far about it 

BTW, I was thinking whether there is a set release day when people will be able to get it


----------



## Rossliew

Andykong said:


> We are in the middle of first production batch, this will be 230V exclusively, and 80% were pre-sold beforehand.  We are reluctant to take any orders right now because we  need several units for internal  and show/event usage.
> 
> We have scheduled the second production batch in April, and this round will be a mixed 120V and 230V version, expect to ship out by late April or early May.



Thanks for the update. It's clearer now as i checked with the local authorised dealer but they couldn't confirm the pricing..



Andykong said:


> This is a very interesting listing of 300B headphone amplifier, thank you very much as I was building a similar list as well.  So with the exception of the GemTune GP-01, HA-300 is actually an "entry-model" to the 300B headphone amplifier community. I wish I can quote this when someone email me about the "very high price" of HA-300
> 
> 
> Manly has a headphone amplifier MSK8 in their line up but that is not a 300B based amplifier and it is a fairly recent item.  I believe you are referring to the Neo Classic 300B preamp with headphone out, SPR at around US$6000.
> https://www.ttvjaudio.com/Manley_Neo_Classic_300B_p/man0000069.htm



There is another well regarded 300B amp but its custom built - the Glenn 300B.


----------



## reklov

Andykong said:


> If you can read Chinese, then you probably notice that the item is marked at NOT FOR SALE (*此宝贝已下架)* right now.
> 
> We want to make sure customers will have first-hand experience with this amplifier before they purchase this headphone amplifier., so the HA-300 will not be available through on-line sales channel in China for the moment.  We might change this practice later on, but for the moment, I seriously doubt if they can actually deliver the amplifier even after they take the money from you upfront.



It wasn’t “off the shelve” before, so you had it taken off. That’s fine, I respect that. By the way, it’s still on sale on your own Chinese webpage


----------



## XVampireX

Andykong said:


> If you have the experience to handle the HA-300, you'll love the FENCE.  They make life a lot easier when you need to lift the HA-300 from table.



I see that you don't have a worldwide market or dealer market unfortunately so I won't have a chance to listen to it, I've just added to my collection Focal Utopia's and I'm thinking of adding to my amplifier set a tube amp, WA33 is too expensive, I don't think I want to spend that much on an amp, even though I think it looks superior to the HA-300
but HA-300 is in a more decent price range, now the question is how good is it with the utopia's?


----------



## Andykong (Mar 7, 2018)

Enjoythemusic.com  holds very high regards to the audio performance of Cayin HA-300.

"The music was just full-of-life, and it was one of those listening sessions I know will stick with me for a long time." (with Focal Utopia)

"... dynamics were wide-open with a big walloping sense of slam. The sound was very airy and open with fantastic depth projection, layering and transparency." (with HiFiman Susvara)

Please follow the link to find out their full coverage on Cayin HA-300 at CanJam NYC 2018 show.


----------



## Andykong

Dobrescu George said:


> This amplifier looks like it would rock the world of many people, really liking what I read so far about it
> 
> BTW, I was thinking whether there is a set release day when people will be able to get it



First production batch is rolling out gradually, basically sold out to local preorders, local and 230V oversea shop demo.

Second production batch will be available by late April to early May, international availability subject to dealer order date.


----------



## Andykong

Rossliew said:


> Thanks for the update. It's clearer now as i checked with the local authorised dealer but they couldn't confirm the pricing..
> 
> There is another well regarded 300B amp but its custom built - the Glenn 300B.



They should be able to confirm the price very soon, we have set the Suggested retail price, but the HA-300 is very heavy, and the logistic cost can be fair high, so the dealer must be very careful in working out the logistic and import tax consequence.

The Glenn 300B is highly customized, so I guess it might sound a bit different among different units, and the cost might varied because of that.


----------



## Andykong

reklov said:


> It wasn’t “off the shelve” before, so you had it taken off. That’s fine, I respect that. By the way, it’s still on sale on your own Chinese webpage



I didn't had it taken off, but the time I respond to your post, I click into the link and notice the "off the shelve" status already.

We have it available on our webstie but the 商城 feature is more an online showroom for us.  The real transaction are taken place at our Tmall shop, and HA-300 is not listed there:
https://cayin.world.tmall.com/shop/view_shop.htm?shop_id=477721192

By the way, we are flattered to have customer try to hunt down the purchase option for HA-300 when there isn't any solid reviews or audition opportunity.  Thank you very much for your support and interest in HA-300.


----------



## Andykong

XVampireX said:


> I see that you don't have a worldwide market or dealer market unfortunately so I won't have a chance to listen to it, I've just added to my collection Focal Utopia's and I'm thinking of adding to my amplifier set a tube amp, WA33 is too expensive, I don't think I want to spend that much on an amp, even though I think it looks superior to the HA-300
> but HA-300 is in a more decent price range, now the question is how good is it with the utopia's?



Where are you located?  Maybe there is a dealer near you?  We have listed most of our dealers in the following link, with the exception of a few pending for update.
http://en.cayin.cn/netword?c=129&ctype=2

Cayin will attend CanJam Singapore (March), AXPONA (illinois, April) and Munich High-end audio show (May), if you plan to attend any on of these shows, you'll be able to audition the HA-300.

I just quoted the CanJam NYC show report from enjoythemusic.com earlier on, and there is a short impression on HA-300 + Utopia.


----------



## Jalo

Andy, I met you last year at SoCal Can Jam, looks like Cayin will not attend this year SoCal CanJam? I am disappointed as I am interested in audition the HA300. Did you say the HA300 is available for audition in your Hong Kong store? I may be there in April.


----------



## XVampireX

Andykong said:


> Where are you located?  Maybe there is a dealer near you?  We have listed most of our dealers in the following link, with the exception of a few pending for update.
> http://en.cayin.cn/netword?c=129&ctype=2
> 
> Cayin will attend CanJam Singapore (March), AXPONA (illinois, April) and Munich High-end audio show (May), if you plan to attend any on of these shows, you'll be able to audition the HA-300.
> ...



I live in Israel, I do travel sometimes, will be in The Netherlands soon too but even that you don't have


----------



## Andykong (Mar 8, 2018)

We own Mr Chris Marten of HiFi+ a salute as he always drop by our booth and spend a lot of time to audition our products since our first appearance at CanJam SoCal (2016).  He described the HA-300 as "Cayin’s best efforts, ever":



> The HA 300 is beautiful to look at with design cues reminiscent some of the lovely (but decidedly premium-priced) products from firms such as Airtight. But the real draw of this amplifier involves its sound quality, which I think could go toe-to-toe in comparison with most any top-tier offering regardless of price.


http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/ca...rom-ultimate-headphone-guide-part-two/?page=2

We are looking forward to a full-scale review from Mr. Marten, I am sure this will be a very interesting read for all HeadFier, especially for those who are interested int eh HA-300 specifically.


----------



## Andykong

Jalo said:


> Andy, I met you last year at SoCal Can Jam, looks like Cayin will not attend this year SoCal CanJam? I am disappointed as I am interested in audition the HA300. Did you say the HA300 is available for audition in your Hong Kong store? I may be there in April.



We don't plan to attend CanJam SoCal this year.  Cayin builds speaker amplifiers as well as headphone amplifiers, so we need to maintain presence in both HeadFi events and traditional HiFi events, that's why
 we can't attend each and every CanJam events even we know they are the most effective events to headphone market.

The HA-300 certainly will available at Hong Kong store, but unlikely during April.   They probably will start to import the HA-300 on or after May.


----------



## Andykong

XVampireX said:


> I live in Israel, I do travel sometimes, will be in The Netherlands soon too but even that you don't have



Unfortunately we don't have an authorized dealer near you.  Maybe you can check our dealers network (links below) while you are travelling, and setup an appointment when you visit a country on our dealer list.
http://en.cayin.cn/netword?c=129&ctype=2&smallid=188

On the other hand, the Munich High-end audio show is your best bet.  It is the best Audio show in Europe, and you'll be able to check out a lot of interesting products on top of the HA-300, definitely worth give it try.


----------



## iceanddice (Mar 9, 2018)

Andykong said:


> We don't plan to attend CanJam SoCal this year.  Cayin builds speaker amplifiers as well as headphone amplifiers, so we need to maintain presence in both HeadFi events and traditional HiFi events, that's why
> we can't attend each and every CanJam events even we know they are the most effective events to headphone market.
> 
> The HA-300 certainly will available at Hong Kong store, but unlikely during April.   They probably will start to import the HA-300 on or after May.



Heya Andy! Sucks that I’ll be in SG a week before Canjam so no auditions possible... But it seems like I have access to this at a reeeally good price by next month and am seriously considering it... any idea on synergy with the HD800s? So far pairings are with the Utopia and Empyrean correct?


----------



## Andykong

iceanddice said:


> Heya Andy! Sucks that I’ll be in SG a week before Canjam so no auditions possible... But it seems like I have access to this at a reeeally good price by next month and am seriously considering it... any idea on synergy with the HD800s? So far pairings are with the Utopia and Empyrean correct?



We have used HD800, T1, LCD3 and Abyss as reference headphones during the product development stage, and used HiFiman Susvara, Utopia, Empryean, and Kennerton Thror at CanJam NYC show.  We haven't tested HA-300 with HD800S, but based on the performance with HD800, I think it should pair with HD800S satisfactory, but I suggest you request  a decent audition opportunity before you pay up the deal.

You are dealing with Soundwave Audio Visual Store?


----------



## iceanddice (Mar 9, 2018)

Andykong said:


> We have used HD800, T1, LCD3 and Abyss as reference headphones during the product development stage, and used HiFiman Susvara, Utopia, Empryean, and Kennerton Thror at CanJam NYC show.  We haven't tested HA-300 with HD800S, but based on the performance with HD800, I think it should pair with HD800S satisfactory, but I suggest you request  a decent audition opportunity before you pay up the deal.
> 
> You are dealing with Soundwave Audio Visual Store?



Soundwave indeed, Andy


----------



## Andykong

Mr Chris Marten (HiFi+, The Absolute Sound) said the HA-300 is Cayin’s best efforts, ever and he holds very high regards to our headphone amplifier:

"The HA 300 is beautiful to look at with design cues reminiscent some of the lovely (but decidedly premium-priced) products from firms such as Airtight. But the real draw of this amplifier involves its sound quality, which I think could go toe-to-toe in comparison with most any top-tier offering regardless of price."

We are looking forward to a full-scale review from Mr. Marten, I am sure this will be a very interesting read for Headphone enthusiastic who are interested in Cayin HA-300. 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...ort-from-ultimate-headphone-guide-part-two-1/


----------



## Dan_D

Hi Andy...

Do you have any experience listening or pair HA-300 with Sony MDR-Z1R?

What do you think of this combo?


----------



## Dietmar Görtz

Hello,

I live in Germany.
I am very interested in the HA-300.
Is the HA-300 dead silent? Also with headphones under 50 Ohm? Absolutely no humming? 

Thanks,

Dietmar


----------



## musicman59

Are you going to be at Axpona?


----------



## Andykong

Dan_D said:


> Hi Andy...
> 
> Do you have any experience listening or pair HA-300 with Sony MDR-Z1R?
> 
> What do you think of this combo?



Sorry, didn't have the opportunity to try the Sony headphones with HA-300, lets hope someone will bring the Sony Z1R to our booth in CanJam SIngapore, AXPONA, and/or Munich High End Audio Show.


----------



## Andykong

Dietmar Görtz said:


> Hello,
> 
> I live in Germany.
> I am very interested in the HA-300.
> ...



To my ears, yes, the HA-300 is dead silent, and I have two reviewers and one tube amp. manufacturer shared the same view. 

We'll attend Munich High End Audio Show from 10 to 13 May 2018 at the MOC Munich.  You can audition the HA-300 in person if you come to this show.


----------



## Andykong

musicman59 said:


> Are you going to be at Axpona?




Yes, we'll be there, booth 433 at Ear Gear Expo.  Full line up including HA-300 will be there waiting for you.


----------



## Andykong

Cayin will attend CanJam Singapore, March 24th and 25th, 2018, at Pan Pacific, Marina Square. We shall showcase our new Flagship tube headphone amplifier HA-300, the 3 pieces i-Series suite (iDAP-6, iDAC-6 and iHA-6), N5ii Android DAP, and our complete Personal Audio line up.

Please come and say Hi at Booth 34-35 if you'll attend this wonderful event.


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

Andykong said:


> I heard the Mogwai but not the SE in previous CanJam, they are  best bang for the buck at their price range, and I love their retro design.  There is not urgent upgrade need when you have a beautiful ampsandsound amp. on your table, but  I certainly want to read the impression of HA-300 from a old friend who understand our house sound and headphone amplifiers inside out.


The Mogwai looks a lot like the DIYTube Clementine http://www.diytube.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4893 ... I assume they are using their own values for a headphone specific application.


----------



## Dan_D

Hi Andy...

Sorry, if I can ask. What sort of hi-end speaker comes in mind when designing HA-300 with 8w per channel?
It would be better to have a preamp option, so the customer can just add power amp and connect to preferred loudspeakers.


----------



## Andykong

Dan_D said:


> Hi Andy...
> 
> Sorry, if I can ask. What sort of hi-end speaker comes in mind when designing HA-300 with 8w per channel?
> It would be better to have a preamp option, so the customer can just add power amp and connect to preferred loudspeakers.



We didn't have a specific speaker model in mind when we decide HA-300.  For the record, Cayin has a bookshelf speaker, LYRE T50 in our lineup and naturally this is one of the speakers we'll used to test the speaker output of HA-300.
http://en.cayin.cn/products_info?itemid=92

By the way, are you familiar with the concept of  Single End Triode Class A (SETA) tube Amplifier?  The standard output of 300B SETA is around 8-11 wpc.  The driving capability of a 8-11W Class A  output transformer coupled tube amplifier can be quite different from a 8wpc Class AB solid state amplifier,  Take a quick look at the reviews of single end 300B amplifiers from speaker-based audio magazine and you'll find out they can offer a lot of fun in speaker domain:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/cayin-300b-integrated-amplifier
https://www.stereophile.com/content/thöress-300b-monoblock-power-amplifier
https://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/398/index.html


----------



## musicman59

Andykong said:


> Yes, we'll be there, booth 433 at Ear Gear Expo.  Full line up including HA-300 will be there waiting for you.


What headphones are you going to have available at Axpona?
Depending on your availability I may bring some of mine like the Z1R you mentioned in a previous post.


----------



## Jalo

Andy even though you are not coming to SoCal CanJam you should consider sending the HA300 with other partners I am sure many attendees will like the opportunities to audition your great amp.


----------



## Maxx134 (Mar 26, 2018)

Allanmarcus said:


> If you are referring to the ModWright, I assume the fence is for aesthetics. It probably can be removed in order to swap the tubes.
> 
> I certainly did' mean to hijack this thread with the ModWright. It starts at $8000, BTW.
> 
> ...


The Modwright is a slightly dark sounding unit.

In appearance it has a very thick coating of shiny paint over what "looks" visually like a DIY design.
Driver tubes cannot be rolled as there are no substitutes for it.
Therefore you are stuck with the sound it has.

Personally I hate the looks as you cant see the tubes in all their glory.
I'm glad I didn't know the unit was going for $8k,
 or I would have walked away sooner...

IMO too many tube amps do not look their true value.
The Cayin actually does and more.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Allanmarcus said:


> If you are referring to the ModWright, I assume the fence is for aesthetics. It probably can be removed in order to swap the tubes.
> 
> I certainly did' mean to hijack this thread with the ModWright. It starts at $8000, BTW.
> 
> ...




GlennOTL makes custom 300 amps & there are a few Chinese brand 300b tube head phone & amps.

The Mind Da MC-300 Ear has both 1/4th & 4 pin headphone jacks & a impedance selector. All for $2,050 plus shipping.
There are also cheaper Chinese 300B amps, that start at around $1,000, but don't have the 4 pin or output impedance selectors.

Problem is no one has ever bought or demoed any of them.


----------



## Icenine2

The takeaway here for me is cost for 300B tubes. EML's are $662 a pop. Not to mention if you go hunting for rare tubes.


----------



## Maxx134 (Mar 29, 2018)

Thenewguy007 said:


> GlennOTL makes custom 300 amps & there are a few Chinese brand 300b tube head phone & amps.
> 
> The Mind Da MC-300 Ear has both 1/4th & 4 pin headphone jacks & a impedance selector. All for $2,050 plus shipping.
> There are also cheaper Chinese 300B amps, that start at around $1,000, but don't have the 4 pin or output impedance selectors.
> ...



*1*-
The problem with cheaper speaker tube amps are the increased noise floor (hiss/hum) from mismatch of connecting lower impedance Headphones,
 and volume setting too sensitive,
and the need for a headphone box/adapter to properly come out of the amp's speaker outputs...

Not to mention the issue of Soundstage which  may not be fully present,
 as most speaker amps tend to be a bit forward and lacking of holography.

*2-*
The The Mind Da MC-300  has only 900mw output to headphones.
The 7w is for speaker out.
So Engineering level of modification would have to be done to change  that,
And level of sound quality is unknown.

*3-*
Both the GlennOTL  custom 300 amp,
And the EC Aficionado (with 300b option) are excellent amp choices,
But both are $4k amps.

I still see the Cayin on top with most power, most options and best finish quality.


----------



## once

I actually own a Ming Da MC-300. If someone has questions, feel free to ask.

In terms of speakers - 8 watts is actually plenty for many speakers, especially in near field applications. No, you probably won't fill a stadium, but my 7 wpc output drives my LS50 plenty loud for my near-field home office application. I don't even turn the dial up much beyond a quarter of the way to full volume.

Speaker sensitivities are measured per watt, so for example, the LS50 gets to 85DB off a single watt - not bad if they are sitting close to you. 85 is typically the level at which you start to get hearing loss, so in reality my music spiking to 85 DB over dynamic range is perfectly fine, which means I'm using much much less than 1 watt for normal listening.

Getting one of these low power amplifiers to power speakers can really open your eyes to how little power you really need (in certain applications, that is).


----------



## Rayzilla

once said:


> I actually own a Ming Da MC-300. If someone has questions, feel free to ask.
> 
> In terms of speakers - 8 watts is actually plenty for many speakers, especially in near field applications. No, you probably won't fill a stadium, but my 7 wpc output drives my LS50 plenty loud for my near-field home office application. I don't even turn the dial up much beyond a quarter of the way to full volume.
> 
> ...


Is your Ming Da MC-300 the headphone model (MC-300 EAR)? Do you think it has enough power to drive the HE6? I would love to hear what you think of it. You can PM me so that we do not derail this thread.


----------



## Maxx134

Jalo said:


> Andy even though you are not coming to SoCal CanJam you should consider sending the HA300 with other partners I am sure many attendees will like the opportunities to audition your great amp.


SoCal should not be avoided as huge market there.


----------



## Andykong

musicman59 said:


> What headphones are you going to have available at Axpona?
> Depending on your availability I may bring some of mine like the Z1R you mentioned in a previous post.



Sorry for the delay, I stay back in Singapore for a few days and just get back on track today.

For planar, we'll have HiFiman Susvara, Abyss AB-1266 Phi, Kennerton Thror and possibly Meze Empryean.  For dynamic, we'll have Focal Utopia and HD800 (not the S).

Please bring your Z1R as we didn't have a lot of choice on dynamics headphones.


----------



## Andykong (Apr 1, 2018)

Jalo said:


> Andy even though you are not coming to SoCal CanJam you should consider sending the HA300 with other partners I am sure many attendees will like the opportunities to audition your great amp.





Maxx134 said:


> SoCal should not be avoided as huge market there.



Sorry, its too late to arrange anything by now. I did ask around at CanJam Singapore but the HA-300 is simply too big and occupied half a table immediately, so it is difficult to find a partner with space to spare at last minute.


----------



## T Bone

@Andykong I am disappointed that the Cayin HA-300 won't be at CanJam SoCal.  It ranks high on my list of "top of the line" gear to listen to.


----------



## Level5

Will be getting this very soon! I'm upgrading from HA-1A mk2 which was my first tube amp that got me hooked on tubes, but sadly I had to sell to make room for this big boi.


----------



## iceanddice

Level5 said:


> Will be getting this very soon! I'm upgrading from HA-1A mk2 which was my first tube amp that got me hooked on tubes, but sadly I had to sell to make room for this big boi.



I got mine this week and boy does this make my HD800S sing. Any peakiness I had with it disappeared, gave the mids a bit more body to them and the cans just felt even more spacious and resolving than they already are. Got a Utopia with lazuli on its way to me as well!


----------



## Level5

iceanddice said:


> I got mine this week and boy does this make my HD800S sing. Any peakiness I had with it disappeared, gave the mids a bit more body to them and the cans just felt even more spacious and resolving than they already are. Got a Utopia with lazuli on its way to me as well!



The stocks tubes seems to be really good from what I read/heard, but I'd want to order some different ones to roll after I get acclimated with them for a bit. Any suggestions?


----------



## Level5

iceanddice said:


> I got mine this week and boy does this make my HD800S sing. Any peakiness I had with it disappeared, gave the mids a bit more body to them and the cans just felt even more spacious and resolving than they already are. Got a Utopia with lazuli on its way to me as well!



I'll have to borrow an hd800 again just to test it on this amp. I already have a Utopia which will benefit greatly due to its narrow soundstage and paired with this, should be a real treat!


----------



## iceanddice

Level5 said:


> The stocks tubes seems to be really good from what I read/heard, but I'd want to order some different ones to roll after I get acclimated with them for a bit. Any suggestions?



I haven’t experimented either, as they are a week old. Getting a pair of Gold Lion 300B’s soon. I’ll try em out and let you know any notable changes. For preamp tubes, as far as 6sn7’s go, the stock are pretty good already being Shuguang WE6sn7’s.


----------



## T Bone

Level5 said:


> Will be getting this very soon! I'm upgrading from HA-1A mk2


That's one heck of a big jump.  Going from an EL84 based tube amp to a 300B tube amp is a Ford Mustang to Ferrari leap!
Congratulations on your decision.  Please do share your impressions when you take delivery.


----------



## iceanddice

T Bone said:


> That's one heck of a big jump.  Going from an EL84 based tube amp to a 300B tube amp is a Ford Mustang to Ferrari leap!
> Congratulations on your decision.  Please do share your impressions when you take delivery.


I on the other hand went from the iHA-6 to the HA-300... what car was I driving then?


----------



## T Bone

iceanddice said:


> I on the other hand went from the iHA-6 to the HA-300... what car was I driving then?


Hmmm - how about a Turbocharged Subura WRX!  

I currently own a tube amp and tube pre-amp in my 2-channel system.  I've had tube gear in my Head-Fi rig before.
....but I've never listened to a 300B system and have always wanted too.  The HA-300 looks like a great amplifier and I can't wait to start hearing listening impressions from owners.


----------



## Level5 (Apr 27, 2018)

T Bone said:


> That's one heck of a big jump.  Going from an EL84 based tube amp to a 300B tube amp is a Ford Mustang to Ferrari leap!
> Congratulations on your decision.  Please do share your impressions when you take delivery.



Indeed it is! I've outgrown the HA-1A mk2 upon upgrading to Utopia and the only logical move forward is the HA-300. While there are plenty of great choices out there, nothing really interest me enough other than the HA-300.

I have a Holo Spring as well and its going to be really interesting how that will add/affect its holographic characteristics that I love about it. With the HA-1A mk2, it brought it a bit forward while the IHA-6 seems to retains its holographic airy nature but at the sacrifice of tube goodness.

I'll update back when I receive it in a week or two!


----------



## musicman59

i you don't want to pay big bucks for a pair of 300B I would go with EML 300B Mesh tubes but if money is not a problem then the Takatsuki 300B.
For drivers I like the Tungsol Black Glass/Round Plates 6SN7 or the 6F8G (but you need an adapter for these). Also the Sylvania Brown Base/Chrome top 6SN7WGT are nice.
The guys from Cayin recommended not to mess with the rectifier tubes. They are rare and the stock are very good.


----------



## Andykong

Would like to explain the amplification concept of HA-300 before we go into other detail discussion.

Cayin adopts a pragmatic Class A single-ended amplification with balanced output approach when we design HA-300. We accept RCA and XLR inputs, but we convert the balanced signal to single end with a pair of input transformers before we feed the signal into the amplification circuit. 


 

The tube circuit is developed around the 300B DHT (Direct-Heated Triode) tube, aka the Dream tube of audiophile and tube enthusiasts, and we use 6SN7 as the first stage of our push-pull circuit. We believe single-end approach will bring out the charm of the tubes and it is more effective and feasible in high-end tube amplifier as we have minimized the tube matching requirements.

 

The output from 300B will then feed into a pair of output transformers for single-ended or balanced output. We design and produce these transformers in-housed, this is how we achieve optimized output for different settings. HA-300 provides three sets of impedance matched headphone outputs and one set of speaker output. Since these output options are extracted from our output transformer directly, that explains why HA-300 is one of the most transparent tube headphone amplifier in the market.


----------



## Andykong

Level5 said:


> The stocks tubes seems to be really good from what I read/heard, but I'd want to order some different ones to roll after I get acclimated with them for a bit. Any suggestions?



I'll suggest you start with 6SN7 , this is the first stage of the single end tube amplification, any change in tonal balance or sound signature will further "enlarged" in second stage, so I always recommend customers to start with the smaller Stage 1 tube.  

One final reminder, stick with the stock tubes for a while, wait till all the components (and transformers) has settled down, this will allow you to audition the tube accurately,


----------



## Andykong

iceanddice said:


> I got mine this week and boy does this make my HD800S sing. Any peakiness I had with it disappeared, gave the mids a bit more body to them and the cans just felt even more spacious and resolving than they already are. Got a Utopia with lazuli on its way to me as well!



Utopia with Dana Lazuli Reference is the reference headphone setup I used at CanJam NYC and AXPONA, this works with HA-300 extremely well, a very good choice indeed.


----------



## Andykong

T Bone said:


> That's one heck of a big jump.  Going from an EL84 based tube amp to a 300B tube amp is a Ford Mustang to Ferrari leap!
> Congratulations on your decision.  Please do share your impressions when you take delivery.



Well, I think the Transformers also contributed to the big jump


----------



## Maxx134

Andykong said:


> Utopia with Dana Lazuli Reference is the reference headphone setup I used at CanJam NYC and AXPONA, this works with HA-300 extremely well, a very good choice indeed.


May I ask what is your source dac used?
I forgot to take notice.


----------



## Andykong

T Bone said:


> Hmmm - how about a Turbocharged Subura WRX!
> 
> I currently own a tube amp and tube pre-amp in my 2-channel system.  I've had tube gear in my Head-Fi rig before.
> ....but I've never listened to a 300B system and have always wanted too.  The HA-300 looks like a great amplifier and I can't wait to start hearing listening impressions from owners.



Direct Heated Triode is magical, if you were to upgrade your speaker amp, consider tube amp with 845 tubes if your speaker is not too difficult.

Likewise for headphone amplifier, check out  300B or  2A3  based headphone amplifier first, they are gorgeous if executed correctly.


----------



## Andykong

Maxx134 said:


> May I ask what is your source dac used?
> I forgot to take notice.



iDAP-6 and iDAC-6.

Come back next week, Munich start on 10 May and I'll try a new setup this time.


----------



## Andykong

Level5 said:


> Indeed it is! I've outgrown the HA-1A mk2 upon upgrading to Utopia and the only logical move forward is the HA-300. While there are plenty of great choices out there, nothing really interest me enough other than the HA-300.
> 
> I have a Holo Spring as well and its going to be really interesting how that will add/affect its holographic characteristics that I love about it. With the HA-1A mk2, it brought it a bit forward while the IHA-6 seems to retains its holographic airy nature but at the sacrifice of tube goodness.
> 
> I'll update back when I receive it in a week or two!



You have both? I mean iHA-6 and HA-1AMK2? and when HA-300 arrive, you'll have all three headphone amplifiers form Cayin ? This is very interesting.


----------



## Andykong

musicman59 said:


> i you don't want to pay big bucks for a pair of 300B I would go with EML 300B Mesh tubes but if money is not a problem then the Takatsuki 300B.
> For drivers I like the Tungsol Black Glass/Round Plates 6SN7 or the 6F8G (but you need an adapter for these). Also the Sylvania Brown Base/Chrome top 6SN7WGT are nice.
> The guys from Cayin recommended not to mess with the rectifier tubes. They are rare and the stock are very good.



That probably is me.  Rolling rectifier tubes will most likely improve the sound but  since we use NOS RCA tubes for this purpose in HA-300, we can wait.


----------



## Level5

Andykong said:


> You have both? I mean iHA-6 and HA-1AMK2? and when HA-300 arrive, you'll have all three headphone amplifiers form Cayin ? This is very interesting.



Sadly I had to sell the HA-1A mk2 to make room for HA-300 on my desk and besides It'll just collect dust when I get the HA-300.


----------



## cradon

Andykong said:


> I'll suggest you start with 6SN7 , this is the first stage of the single end tube amplification, any change in tonal balance or sound signature will further "enlarged" in second stage, so I always recommend customers to start with the smaller Stage 1 tube.
> 
> One final reminder, stick with the stock tubes for a while, wait till all the components (and transformers) has settled down, this will allow you to audition the tube accurately,



I got my unit in yesterday and found it a little lacking in resulution, top end sparkle/air and soundstaging. After about 5 hours I noticed some improvements. How long do you recommend waiting for the components and transformers to settle down?


----------



## Andykong

cradon said:


> I got my unit in yesterday and found it a little lacking in resulution, top end sparkle/air and soundstaging. After about 5 hours I noticed some improvements. How long do you recommend waiting for the components and transformers to settle down?



The first 50 hours will be fairly noticeable, the changes will become subtle after that, and kind of fairly stable one you pass the 100 hours mark.


----------



## Level5 (May 10, 2018)

Just got it yesterday so still breaking in but with a brief listen, I am left speechless with Utopia!

First thing I noticed is the gobs of resolution this thing spits out and the thunderous slam and bass yet its not muddy nor bloomy!

The level of transparency, layering and clarity is almost SS-like and made me not want to listen to my IHA-6 anymore. I never knew a tube amp is able to go toe to toe with a good SS amp!

Soundstage is very open, airy and I get a better sense of depth. It paired really well with my Holo Spring and it didn't ruin its holographic nature.

I'll add more later when its fully broken in but so far it has exceeded my expectations and made my Utopia show its true colors!


----------



## Dobrescu George

Level5 said:


> Just got it yesterday so still breaking in but with a brief listen, I am left speechless with Utopia!
> 
> First thing I noticed is the gobs of resolution this thing spits out and the thunderous slam and bass yet its not muddy nor bloomy!
> 
> ...




Oooh, sounds like it would give a lot of energy and life to a pair of LCD headphones as well


----------



## alphanumerix1

Level5 said:


> Just got it yesterday so still breaking in but with a brief listen, I am left speechless with Utopia!
> 
> First thing I noticed is the gobs of resolution this thing spits out and the thunderous slam and bass yet its not muddy nor bloomy!
> 
> ...



Looks great aswell


----------



## Maxx134 (May 11, 2018)

Level5 said:


> I'll add more later when its fully broken in but so far it has exceeded my expectations and made my Utopia show its true colors!


The Utopia is very much like the Abyss Diana.

They match Really really well because they are so transparent, and the Cayin is so dam musical.
It increases the size and power and life of the headphones.

I was listening to the Cayin 3days ago at a friend's house, so memory still fresh.

The euphoric nature of the amp, is extremely well done, because it is ever so slightly richer than a 2a3 amp, while being extremely resolving so you only notice how musicall it is.

Especially with highly resolving headphones.
It makes the HD800 scale higher than I have heard before.
You would never say the HD800 lacks any bass with this amp.


Wait till your tubes burn in and the trebles become optimal.
Happens to all new tubes, you gotta burn them in.

Stock driver tubes highly musicall, but take a while to burn in...
 If your not patient,
 roll in some old stock Tung-sol in driver tube spot, you get an instant slap of dynamics and stage.


----------



## wasupdog

where did you order from?  I didn't know they had these yet in the usa.


----------



## Level5

wasupdog said:


> where did you order from?  I didn't know they had these yet in the usa.



Musicteck


----------



## Level5

Maxx134 said:


> It increases the size and power and life of the headphones.



Yes this was the most surprising aspect of this amp that just boggles my mind. Its like all my previous amps that are more than capable powering my Utopia felt under powered somehow! Its totally a different animal now! 

I'm im love with the stock tubes to start rolling right away, but will try Tung Sol in the future!


----------



## musicman59

Can the 6F8G tubes with adapters be used instead of the 6SN7?


----------



## Level5 (May 23, 2018)

Back from the honey moon phase and now I no longer love the stock 300b after swapping it with a pair of Gold Lions PX300B.

I must admit the stock TJ Full Music 300b/n were slightly more transparent, faster and had deeper/punchier bass than the GL, but at the cost of being too sizzly/shrilly with vocals! The GL on the other hand is very balanced with better depth and soundstage!

One of my of stock TJ 300b/n glass is bigger than the other and I noticed a chip on the ceramic base of the tube. I'll try a different mesh type 300b from another brand tube next time. 

I'm still at break in period with the GL at less than 100hrs and I'm sure these will loosen up a bit more in a few days.

Later today I'm swapping the stock Shuguang WE6SN7 with a pair of Psvane CV181-TII and will give a brief impression on them.

Overall I'm very satisfied with the HA-300 and I already sold my IHA-6 because it'll just collect dust. I'm pretty much done with solid state amps!

300B is truly a magical tube and I can't wait to try more!


----------



## Level5 (May 23, 2018)

I forgot to add that the HA-300 is really sensitive to wifi signals and had to relocate my wifi router. Other than that, I don't really have any issues with any hum or noise.


----------



## musicman59

Can the AVVT AV32B SL be used in this amplifier? I think these are equivalent as the EML 300B-XLS
http://www.jacmusic.com/avvt/datashts/av32b.htm


----------



## Andykong

Level5 said:


> I forgot to add that the HA-300b is really sensitive to wifi signals and had to relocate my wifi router. Other than that, I don't really have any issues with any hum or noise.



Glad you mentioned this.  Whenever HA-300 user approach me with a hum/hissing problem, I'll ask him to check if there is a RF signal in the circuit (e.g., antenna input to TV or STB) or nearby,  Most Solid State amp users will not understand the Direct Heated Triode tube amplifiers are typically sensitive to RF interference.


----------



## iceanddice

Level5 said:


> Back from the honey moon phase and now I no longer love the stock 300b after swapping it with a pair of Gold Lions PX300B.
> 
> I must admit the stock TJ Full Music 300b/n were slightly more transparent, faster and had deeper/punchier bass than the GL, but at the cost of being too sizzly/shrilly with vocals! The GL on the other hand is very balanced with better depth and soundstage!
> 
> ...



I actually got the Gold Lions even before I got my amp. I told myself I'd only stick em in when the stock tubes gave out -- turns out I was just lying to myself. Slapped em on 3 days ago! Sound stage is primarily where I sense the improvement... Didn't get to A/B with the stock ones though but I'm not sure I still wanna go back.


----------



## Andykong

Level5 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Level5 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Find new love in 300B already? That's a quick move. 

Glad you like your HA-300.   The Utopia is one of the reference headphones that I used to demonstrate HA-300 frequently in previous shows. On top of demonstrating the quality of a TOTL headphone system, the HA-300 + Utopia synergy is unique and attractive, the system will draw the listeners into music in regardless of your preference: whatever you are looking for, we have it in this demo.

When I started my audiophile hobby , I also jumped to the conclusion quickly that tube amplifiers are slow (or sluggish?), colored (non-neutral), laid back (boring) and mid-range centric (below average extension on both ends).  So you are not alone to underrate the performance of a high quality tube amplifier.  When properly design and built, tube amplifier can definitely compete with Solid State amplifiers on almost every aspect (well, maybe except background noise) and at the same time offers impressive musicality and much longer continuous listening duration. 

I am not surprised that you have done with Solid State amplifier, the 300B is magical, there is a good reason why this tube is so sought after in the audiophile community. By the way, Western Electric has announced that the WE 300B electron tube will re-enter production this year, in time for their 80th Anniversary, so stay tune for that,  A pair of NOS Western Electronic 300B can easily cost more then the HA-300 right now, so it would be interesting if the new batch of WE300B will retain the glory of the dream tube and yet become affordable.

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2018...-re-enter-production-launch-of-new-amplifier/


----------



## Andykong

Maxx134 said:


> The Utopia is very much like the Abyss Diana.
> 
> They match Really really well because they are so transparent, and the Cayin is so dam musical.
> It increases the size and power and life of the headphones.
> ...



Hey, you are MK6+ and MK8se users? I owned MK6+ previously and had written a very long review for MK6+ vs MK8se before I join Cayin, they are marvelous headphone amplifiers.  

Wander where you are located?  Little Dot has limited circulation outside China, 

I tends to agree with you that HA-300 works well with highly resolving headphones.  In my experience, HA-300  works well with almost every dynamic headphone I throw to it.  I have tried, Utopia, Clear, HD800, T1, K812/K872,, and ZMF Auteur already and none has disappointed me so far.  The result with Planar is mixed.  Susvara, Thror (Kennerton), Empyrean and D8000 sounds very good but Abyss, HEK, Ether Flow are not as outstanding.  I haven't try Audeze yet and I am looking forwards to that,


----------



## Andykong

iceanddice said:


> I actually got the Gold Lions even before I got my amp. I told myself I'd only stick em in when the stock tubes gave out -- turns out I was just lying to myself. Slapped em on 3 days ago! Sound stage is primarily where I sense the improvement... Didn't get to A/B with the stock ones though but I'm not sure I still wanna go back.



Well, consider you bought the Utopia and Dana lazuli almost immediately after you bought our HA-300, I don't think can stand the temptation to NOT plugging the GL into HA-300 right away.  I think you are doing very well already if you only do that 3 days ago.


----------



## iceanddice

Andykong said:


> Well, consider you bought the Utopia and Dana lazuli almost immediately after you bought our HA-300, I don't think can stand the temptation to NOT plugging the GL into HA-300 right away.  I think you are doing very well already if you only do that 3 days ago.



LOL! You're right but the stock Full Music's we're pulling their weight in gold and my unaccustomed ears (coming from a Deckard --> iha-6 --> HA-300) were no match for what they brought to the table.


----------



## Andykong

musicman59 said:


> Can the 6F8G tubes with adapters be used instead of the 6SN7?



Yes, 6F8G with adapters can be used as replacement for 6SN7 in HA-300



musicman59 said:


> Can the AVVT AV32B SL be used in this amplifier? I think these are equivalent as the EML 300B-XLS
> http://www.jacmusic.com/avvt/datashts/av32b.htm



Technically yes, but we don't recommend this.  The Plate Dissipation of AV32B SL is 65W.  HA-300 is optimized to work with standard 300B with plate dissipation at around 42W.


----------



## Andykong

Andykong said:


> Glad you mentioned this.  Whenever HA-300 user approach me with a hum/hissing problem, I'll ask him to check if there is a RF signal in the circuit (e.g., antenna input to TV or STB) or nearby,  Most Solid State amp users will not understand the Direct Heated Triode tube amplifiers are typically sensitive to RF interference.



And I want to add one remark that is partially related to this issue.  If you set the HA-300 input to XLR, you must connect a source device to the XLR input terminals, otherwise you'll likely hear background noise or hum from the HA-300.  Similar will also applied to RCA inputs.

This is because the input impedance of HA-300 is rated at 100KΩ, this is significantly higher then input impedance of Solid State amplifier.  When testing the HA-300 without a source device connected, the "opened" input terminal will work as an antenna picking up all sorts of noise and RF interference.  When you connect a source device to the input terminal, you have closed up the circuit sealed the amplifier from interference. For similar reason, we recommend interconnects with strong shielding capability, especially if you have tight space in the back of the amplifier and the interconnect will mingle with power cords inevitably.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jun 9, 2018)

Andykong said:


> When properly design and built, tube amplifier can definitely compete with Solid State amplifiers on almost every aspect (well, maybe except background noise) and at the same time offers impressive musicality and much longer continuous listening duration.


I have had different experience.
In my experience no solid sate amp come close to the resolve and holography of tube amp..
I have also had tube amps dead silent as well.
Solid state amps can deliver some raw power but the micro details, ambience, layering, and resolve are all superior in tube amps, for me.



Andykong said:


> The result with Planar is mixed. Susvara, Thror (Kennerton), Empyrean and D8000 sounds very good but Abyss, HEK, Ether Flow are not as outstanding. I haven't try Audeze yet and I am looking forwards to that,


I remember you guys had them all in Cayin room at CanJam NYC.

I remember I felt the D8000 and kennerton Headphones were nice, but both were less lively than both abyss models and Susvara.




Andykong said:


> , you are MK6+ and MK8se users? I owned MK6+ previously and had written a very long review for MK6+ vs MK8se before I join Cayin, they are marvelous headphone amplifiers.
> 
> Wander where you are located? Little Dot has limited circulation outside China


Yes I have MK8 which was nice upper mid-tier level in stock form,
And used it as guinipig to learn about tube amps and worked on it,
But currently like my friend's Cayin a bit more, as it have more power and 300b sound has unique euphoric touch.




iceanddice said:


> Sound stage is primarily where I sense the improvement...


I don't know how long it takes the stock tubes to fully break in, and they are a very nicely balanced selection,
 but I have experienced a bit more even larger soundstage with EML tubes.


----------



## Andykong

Cayin HA-300 received Silver Award in the Fujiya Avic Spring Headphone Festival 2018, ¥200,000 and above Desktop Headphone Amplifier category. The Gold Award goes to Headamp Audio BSHE electrostatic headphone amplifier and the Bronze award goes to GS-X2 headphone amplifier of the same company.

Cayin is grateful for the recognition from our Toyko friends, and we are looking forward to the Autumn Headphone Festival already.

Full list of Spring Headphone Festival 2018 awards:
https://www.fujiya-avic.jp/user_data/hpfes-award2018s.php


----------



## CSIR

Andy feel free to send me a unit for review .  Even if it doesn't sound great it looks fantastic.

#topofthewishlist


----------



## Andykong

To ice-break form a long silent, let's talk about the volume control of HA-300.

For those who have used headphone amplifiers and speaker amplifiers extensively, do you recognize that the attenuation rates of volume control of these amplifiers are quite different?  Headphone users prefer a fine control on the volume control of their amplifier.  IEM users prefer 1dB steps, and headphone users prefer 2 to 3 dB steps, but speaker amplifier need a larger gap between each volume adjustment to reach similar “impact” on volume control.  In other word, the distance between the transducer and your ear will correlate to the attenuation rate of volume control they preferred.  Since the HA-300 is a headphone amplifier and speaker amplifier in one chassis, so defining an attenuation curve that can work with headphones and speakers become a challenge. 

We start off by setting the mid-point (i.e., volume mark at 12 o’clock) attenuation value with our standard speaker system, and then work out +12 and -12 desirable steps that will work for both headphones and speakers on both side of the mid-point, this become our targeted 24 steps attenuation curve for HA-300 volume pot (step zero as mute). We then set off to find the best possible after-market volume pot that will closely resemble our attenuation curve.  Unfortunately we couldn’t find any, so at the end of the day, we have to custom make a 4 channel rotary potentiometer according to our attenuation curve exactly from one of our trusted supplier, and this is what we end up with:


 



Some basic information about this volume pot:
Network: Serial Type
No. of Steps: 24
Resistor: BH1/4w Carbon Film
Total: 65dB
Mechanical life: minimum 20,000 cycles

The installation of the volume pot looks like this:


----------



## riffrafff

Looks good.  Do the left and right channels "track" correctly at the first few steps off of mute (step zero)?


----------



## Andykong

riffrafff said:


> Looks good.  Do the left and right channels "track" correctly at the first few steps off of mute (step zero)?



Yes, I didn't have the right headphone to try step 1, but step 2 is balanced.


----------



## Andykong (Jun 22, 2018)

Fresh from production line.  I wish I can be there to witness 30 sets of HA-300 rolling out at the same time.


----------



## riffrafff

Impressive!


----------



## dstubked

Hey Andy, is there somewhere in Singapore I can demo this?


----------



## alphanumerix1

Andykong said:


> Fresh from production line.  I wish I can be there to witness 30 sets of HA-300 rolling out at the same time.



Looks great. Any chance for a pic of the internals?


----------



## iceanddice

dstubked said:


> Hey Andy, is there somewhere in Singapore I can demo this?



I see it on Jaben SG’s instagram. Try there maybe?


----------



## dstubked

iceanddice said:


> I see it on Jaben SG’s instagram. Try there maybe?



Called them and sadly no demo unit.


----------



## Andykong

dstubked said:


> Called them and sadly no demo unit.



Did you ask them whether they'll have new stock coming in?  

The production of HA-300 is a very labor-intensive process, we can only make a limited number of unit per month, and basically 1 batch per month only.  Quite often the shop will run out of stock and even sold out their demo unit when there is a good offer from the customer.


----------



## Andykong

alphanumerix1 said:


> Looks great. Any chance for a pic of the internals?



How about this?


----------



## alphanumerix1

Andykong said:


> How about this?



Wowee, am I the only one who love a good internal shot. Cheers  Andy.


----------



## Andykong

Andykong said:


> We own Mr Chris Marten of HiFi+ a salute as he always drop by our booth and spend a lot of time to audition our products since our first appearance at CanJam SoCal (2016).  He described the HA-300 as "Cayin’s best efforts, ever":
> 
> 
> http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/ca...rom-ultimate-headphone-guide-part-two/?page=2
> ...



HiFi+ has published a HA-300 review on their latest July 2018 issue (161, page 69-72), Mr Marten said the "HA-300 is drop dead gorgeous", "but the “real magic of the HA-300, however, has far more to do with its sound than its look”,  I shall quote one small paragraph of the review for your reference:



 

If you want to read Mr Marten's review after he tried the HA-300 with  HiFiman Susvara, Final Audio D8000 and Abyss AB-1266 Phi, get the HiFi+ magazine if you saw it on newsstand, , or you can read the electronic copy of HiFI+ through pocketmags or their Android/iOS app.

Alternatively you can check out HiFi+ website regularly, I don't know for sure but they might put the review up on their website later.


----------



## Level5

I've settled with Shuguang CV181-Z + Black Treasure 300B and found it to be the best pairing I've tried so far. The Psvane CV181-TII that I replaced it with tend to be a bit bright specially with ADX5000, although I will say its slightly more detailed, but I prefer the CV181-Z sweeter tonality and smoothness. 

Adding the Black Treasure 300B brought back the detail that was lacking with the CV181-Z, but its not as holographic as the other 300B I've tried (Gold Lion & TJ Full Music 300b/n).


----------



## galacticsoap

I'd like to purchase a tube amplifier to partner with my BluDave & Abyss. Contenders are the HA300 and the substantially more expensive WA33. I've looked at the Australian retailers that stock Cayin and can't seem to find anyone who's stocking it (or even listing it on their website's for that matter). Does anyone know how I can source one here?


----------



## alphanumerix1

galacticsoap said:


> I'd like to purchase a tube amplifier to partner with my BluDave & Abyss. Contenders are the HA300 and the substantially more expensive WA33. I've looked at the Australian retailers that stock Cayin and can't seem to find anyone who's stocking it (or even listing it on their website's for that matter). Does anyone know how I can source one here?



AFAIK futureshop is the only stockist of head-fi have you tried contacting them directly?


----------



## galacticsoap

alphanumerix1 said:


> AFAIK futureshop is the only stockist of head-fi have you tried contacting them directly?



Futureshop! Excellent - thanks for the heads up mate. Gave them a ring this afternoon. Unfortunately, the HA300 is yet to arrive in Australia. Futureshop mentioned that he's anticipates it arriving next month, and expected the cost to be around the $5K mark. 

Can anyone comment on any comparisons between the HA300 vs WA33 for someone using an Abyss Phi, listening predominantly to electronic music i.e. Techno, Progressive House, Ambient etc.


----------



## Andykong

galacticsoap said:


> Futureshop! Excellent - thanks for the heads up mate. Gave them a ring this afternoon. Unfortunately, the HA300 is yet to arrive in Australia. Futureshop mentioned that he's anticipates it arriving next month, and expected the cost to be around the $5K mark.
> 
> Can anyone comment on any comparisons between the HA300 vs WA33 for someone using an Abyss Phi, listening predominantly to electronic music i.e. Techno, Progressive House, Ambient etc.



Thank you very much for considering HA-300 as your next headphone amplifier. I hope you'll be able to audition the amp at FutureShop ASAP, make sure you bring your Abyss Phi and music files to the shop, I want you to hear them as a system before you make your final choice, and I am confident on this combination.


----------



## Andykong

Today is the 25th birthday of Cayin, we served the high-end audio business since 8th August 1993 and have developed over 400 Hi-Fi products in past 25 years, ranging from amplifier to Digital Audio Players (DAP). We pay attention to detail because we believe this is what it takes to reproduce music naturally. With your blessing, we shall continue to work with dedication and strive for excellence for the years to come.




To celebrate our Silver Jubilee, Cayin will launch a special edition of our well-received A-845 Direct Heated Triode vacuum tube amplifier. The extremely attractive A-840Pro will be a limited production of 250 units only, it shares the same infrastructure as A-845 but will comes with all sorts of refinements. We shall announce the SRP and availability soon.


----------



## alphanumerix1

Looks great


----------



## Fatdoi

Hi Andy, just like to confirm HA-300 is not a true balanced circuit but SE with XLR attached both input and output?


----------



## Benny-x (Aug 13, 2018)

Fatdoi said:


> Hi Andy, just like to confirm HA-300 is not a true balanced circuit but SE with XLR attached both input and output?


This is probably one of the best product info pages I've seen on a sales page:
https://shop.musicteck.com/products/cayin-ha-300-direct-heated-triode-tube-headphone-amplifer

It's not really accurate to say it's "not a true balanced circuit", because I think that's hard to define as a non-EE, and there are many different ways to "just put some XLR connectors on an amp", and thankfully that's not what's happening here. I follow your question and no, it's not "true balanced". But like I was just mentioning, it's not a lazy approach to just tick the "XLR" box either and it should meet your needs better than many single-ended amplifiers out there. 300B is single-ended, unless you have more tubes, design skill, and money.

As both explained, and pictured twice on that linked page!, it has true Balanced XLR inputs that go through an input transformer, which are converted to single-ended for Class-A push-pull amplification, which then go through an output transformer and are converted to a true balanced signal for either the 4-pin XLR headphone jack or the speaker taps.

**anyone please feel free to correct me if any of that is incorrect.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Andykong said:


> To celebrate our Silver Jubilee, Cayin will launch a special edition of our well-received A-845 Direct Heated Triode vacuum tube amplifier. The extremely attractive A-840Pro will be a limited production of 250 units only, it shares the same infrastructure as A-845 but will comes with all sorts of refinements. We shall announce the SRP and availability soon.



Will this have any headphone inputs?


----------



## Fatdoi (Aug 14, 2018)

Benny-x said:


> This is probably one of the best product info pages I've seen on a sales page:
> https://shop.musicteck.com/products/cayin-ha-300-direct-heated-triode-tube-headphone-amplifer
> 
> It's not really accurate to say it's "not a true balanced circuit", because I think that's hard to define as a non-EE, and there are many different ways to "just put some XLR connectors on an amp", and thankfully that's not what's happening here. I follow your question and no, it's not "true balanced". But like I was just mentioning, it's not a lazy approach to just tick the "XLR" box either and it should meet your needs better than many single-ended amplifiers out there. 300B is single-ended, unless you have more tubes, design skill, and money.
> ...



Thanks for info, it's really helpful now I kinda understand more about this amp. So for XLR signal needs to go through 2 extra transformation steps both input and output, which means the best connection is still via RCA/SE. That's great news. Thanks


----------



## Benny-x

Fatdoi said:


> Thanks for info, it's really helpful now I kinda understand more about this amp. So for XLR signal needs to go through 2 extra transformation steps both input and output, which means the best connection is still via RCA/SE. That's great news. Thanks


I'm not the designer, I can't say for sure. 

But I can reason a guess that you can't simplify it quite like that. You can say that the RCA input does skip the input transformer, so, you are skipping the input transformer conversion by using the RCA inputs vs. the XLR. But the amp was designed with those input transformers, so it's not like they're an unknown variable, and even more so, they were designed into the amp and touted as a feature of the amp. And so far, some of the reports/feedback are via its balanced inputs, and it's pretty positive feedback. Maybe RCA input is compromised because it doesn't go through the input transformers... Haha.

The angle you're going after applies when some compromised "feature" is added to an amp/component as a convenience and not as a planned design element. In this case, the XLR inputs are intentional and a design element. One could even say that if the input transformers were used in tuning (and they would have been since the amp was designed on them), that the XLR inputs may be preferred because they're taking advantage of the inherent common mode noise rejection of XLR/balanced signals over RCA... So together with the input transformers, they're being used to deliver a purer, controlled, and known signal to the Class-A amplification stage vs. the RCA inputs that do not... Haha.

These are the limitations of my guesses. From here, you'd have to try it out on your own or talk with someone who has listened and compared and whose info you know how top decypher. I plan to do the same, but I have confidence in those engineered input transformers that Cayin makes themselves, for this application.


----------



## Andykong

Fatdoi said:


> Hi Andy, just like to confirm HA-300 is not a true balanced circuit but SE with XLR attached both input and output?





Benny-x said:


> This is probably one of the best product info pages I've seen on a sales page:
> https://shop.musicteck.com/products/cayin-ha-300-direct-heated-triode-tube-headphone-amplifer
> 
> It's not really accurate to say it's "not a true balanced circuit", because I think that's hard to define as a non-EE, and there are many different ways to "just put some XLR connectors on an amp", and thankfully that's not what's happening here. I follow your question and no, it's not "true balanced". But like I was just mentioning, it's not a lazy approach to just tick the "XLR" box either and it should meet your needs better than many single-ended amplifiers out there. 300B is single-ended, unless you have more tubes, design skill, and money.
> ...



I have explained the  amplification concept of HA-300 here, this is a good stating point to explore this single-ended vs balanced question.  

The HA-300 is designed around the legendary 300B vacuum tube, this is a Direct Heated Triode  tube and is particularly fit for single-ended circuit, or refer as SET (Single-ended Triode) amplifier by tube audiophiles, if you google SET amplifier, you'll find a lot of exotic example, and this article explain the special charm of SET amplifier.  In fact, even when a tube amp manufacturer decided to go for a 4x300B configuration, they won't go for balanced design but stick with parallel single-ended instead, you can find examples here, here, and here.  Cayin is very experienced in 300B and we have 8 current products that use 300B in different configuration, when we decided to develop a 300B based tube headphone amplifier as our statement product, we know for sure that this will be a SET amplifier immediately. 

We understand the preference towards balanced headphones in Personal Audio hobby, but this is a fairly straight-forward requirement to tube amp designer because we can handle that in the output transformer.  In simplified terms, balanced amplification is all about feeding opposing polarity signals to the left and right transducer.  In the case of  single-ended transformer-coupled speaker amplifier, it will deliver + and - output to the left and right speaker terminals in order to drive a pair of speaker correct, and these L+, L- and R+, R- output from are in fact equivalent to a fully balanced output already.     In other word, single-ended transformer-coupled speaker amplifiers are single-end tube amplification with fully balanced output.  

When we apply this to headphone application,  balanced headphone amplification is feeding opposing polarity signals to the left and right ear-cup of your headphone (in regardless of whether there is a dynamic driver or a planar inside).  Likewise to the example I quoted above, we can achieve that through a specific method to wire the transformer so that the positive polarity (aka "hot") and negative polarity (aka "cold") are driven in opposite directions, hence deliver a fully balanced output from the 300B single-ended tube amplification circuit.

For more detail about HA-300 features, please check out this link from Cayin website.


----------



## Fatdoi

Andykong said:


> I have explained the  amplification concept of HA-300 here, this is a good stating point to explore this single-ended vs balanced question.
> 
> The HA-300 is designed around the legendary 300B vacuum tube, this is a Direct Heated Triode  tube and is particularly fit for single-ended circuit, or refer as SET (Single-ended Triode) amplifier by tube audiophiles, if you google SET amplifier, you'll find a lot of exotic example, and this article explain the special charm of SET amplifier.  In fact, even when a tube amp manufacturer decided to go for a 4x300B configuration, they won't go for balanced design but stick with parallel single-ended instead, you can find examples here, here, and here.  Cayin is very experienced in 300B and we have 8 current products that use 300B in different configuration, when we decided to develop a 300B based tube headphone amplifier as our statement product, we know for sure that this will be a SET amplifier immediately.
> 
> ...



Thanks Andy for your reply. I read it a few times still chewing through the info as i'm not engineering background.


----------



## Andykong (Sep 18, 2018)

Cayin HA-300 will be used as demo amplifier at Final Audio booth at CanJam RMAF 2018.  We want to thank Final Audio for their support to use HA-300 in the event. Those who are interested in HA-300 and will attend the CanJam RMAF are welcome to check out the HA-300 with Final Audio headphones at their booth.

By the way, we have had a typhoon attack few days ago, there might be some delay in our support service in past few days.  We are trying our best to recover full capacity ASAP.


----------



## musicman59

I bet the combination of the HA-300 and D8000 is going to be a killer!!


----------



## Hansotek

Hey guys, here's my full-blown world-premiere review of the Cayin HA-300!

http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1018/Cayin_HA300_Headphone_Amplifier_Review.htm


----------



## Benny-x

Hansotek said:


> Hey guys, here's my full-blown world-premiere review of the Cayin HA-300!
> 
> http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1018/Cayin_HA300_Headphone_Amplifier_Review.htm


Thanks a lot, nice to finally read some words about this amp!


----------



## Fatdoi

Here @ Australia, the price kept creeping up to the point is same as Woo WA5LE.... Also it's special order only so can't audition the sound.... Now putting it in risky purchase.


----------



## Andykong

Cayin is sorry for unable to attend the RMAF for various reasons, but we want to thank Final Audio for using our HA-300 tube headphone amplifier to demostrate their headphones at RMAF. If you want to check out the HA-300 and happens to be at, or planning to attend the CanJam RMAF, don't miss this opportunity to test HA-300 with Final Audio D8000 at the RMAF. Our next public demonstration of HA-300 at US will be CanJam New York 2019.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Anyone who owned this, can you elaborate on the humming noise people have said the unit have?

Can anything mitigate it or completely remove the noise with better tubes or better power cables or would it still be audible with that as well?


----------



## GuyForkes

Thenewguy007 said:


> Anyone who owned this, can you elaborate on the humming noise people have said the unit have?
> 
> Can anything mitigate it or completely remove the noise with better tubes or better power cables or would it still be audible with that as well?



I use this amplifier with with Susvara and HD600. It's completely silent with Susvara but there's a slightly audible hum with the HD600 on low impedance setting. This hum gets louder as I increase the impedance setting though to be honest I never had to increase it above low setting. Changing to a cleaner set of tubes and using a power conditioner (I use the Audioquest Niagara 1000) does seem to reduce the hum to where its almost inaudible but it's still there. Hum is a lot more noticeable on low impedance headphones like Utopia which I used to own. Having said that, the sound out of this amp is just fantastic! Hope this helps.


----------



## project86

HA-300 in the house. This thing is a monster! Currently running it with the Full Music 300B/n mesh plates but that will probably change in the future. Better make sure you have adequate support and space in your audio rack.... this thing is huge and very heavy. 

So far it's phenomenal with HD650 - not quite perfectly silent but very very quiet for a tube amp. Some noise is definitely there when you first turn it on, but after warm up it settles down. I use a balanced power conditioner which probably helps keep noise in check, so I can't say for sure what others are hearing.

I personally prefer the low impedance setting so far, regardless of headphone. Medium and high just make the bass loose and increase general background noise, without any benefit that I can hear. Will keep playing with it though, perhaps certain headphones like a higher impedance (kind of doubt it...) Also the gain is pretty high, I sometimes turn down volume using my DAC so I have more room to work with. But I prefer lower volumes than the vast majority of my friends and fellow HeadFi users so again, your mileage may vary on this aspect. 

Will report back with further findings as I get more time with it. So far I've mainly paired it with the iFi Pro iDSD, but also the ModWright Instruments Oppo 205 and the Cayin iDAC-6 as well. All three sound great in their own ways, and the HA-300 resolves differences very clearly - yet still imparts a beautiful tone of its own.


----------



## Matro5

Love seeing pics of this beautiful amp. enjoy!


----------



## project86

Ok here are more for you.


----------



## iceanddice

project86 said:


> Ok here are more for you.


Those arent the stock full music mesh’s... what 300b’s do you have on there?


----------



## project86

iceanddice said:


> Those arent the stock full music mesh’s... what 300b’s do you have on there?



These are probably going to be the new stock tubes included with the HA-300. It's still Full Music, listed as 300B/n with a different shape than the original domed version. Apparently Full Music is discontinuing or making a change to their line, so Cayin is trying to figure out their plan.


----------



## Andykong

iceanddice said:


> Those arent the stock full music mesh’s... what 300b’s do you have on there?



The current Full Music 300B stock tube has cease production, we have to replace that with another 300B tube.　I am still waiting for the new HA-300 stock photo but I was told the new stock tube is more expansive and is supposed to be a better tube in general.


----------



## Andykong (Oct 24, 2018)

project86 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fantastic, have been looking forward to your impression since I told you our plan on this new amplifier, I hope you like what you hear so far.

By the way the amplifier is very close to the back wall.  The Umbilical Power cable is very thick and firm, I can't imagine how difficult it was to setup the HA-300 so close to the back wall, I get you spend quite some time to get this right.


----------



## project86

Andykong said:


> By the way the amplifier is very close to the back wall.  The Umbilical Power cable is very thick and firm, I can't imagine how difficult it was to setup the HA-300 so close to the back wall, I get you spend quite some time to get this right.



Wow it does look very close in the picture... I hadn't noticed that. Must be a sort of trick of the camera. In real life there's a decent amount of room between the amp and the rear wall. Enough that I didn't have trouble with the umbilical (which I agree is quite thick), nor with the equally thick Audio Art AC cables I use.


----------



## DrummerLeo (Nov 2, 2018)

I received my ha-300 today. It is amazing, one of the best headphone amp I've tried. But mine does have some humming issues with hd800s and Utopia from the balanced output. However, I have no humming issue with TH900 from the single end output, which is a little wired...
I moved my router out of my room last night too...


----------



## Fatdoi

DrummerLeo said:


> I received my ha-300 today. It is amazing, one of the best headphone amp I've tried. But mine does have some humming issues with hd800s and Utopia from the balanced output. However, I have no humming issue with TH900 from the single end output, which is a little wired...
> I moved my router out of my room last night too...



My suspicion is this amp isn't a true balanced design my feeling is it works best at RCA/SE mode.....


----------



## DrummerLeo

Fatdoi said:


> My suspicion is this amp isn't a true balanced design my feeling is it works best at RCA/SE mode.....


That’s true, after few days burning I don’t have any humming issue with hd800 now. I tried RCA/SE mode and it sounds very expensive. I’m now searching for 300b tubes and start rolling!!! (The stock tubes are good tho)


----------



## Fatdoi

DrummerLeo said:


> I tried RCA/SE mode and it sounds very expensive.



Can you explain bit more on what you mean about expensive sounds? Or expansive?


----------



## Benny-x

Fatdoi said:


> My suspicion is this amp isn't a true balanced design my feeling is it works best at RCA/SE mode.....


If you read the thread, Andykong from Cayin details the topology as well as the reasoning, then several other members commented on it as well. 

There no secret about it and nothing you need to "have a suspicion" for. It's laid out bare. 

Anyway, still crossing my fingers that I can pick one of these up in the coming months.


----------



## DrummerLeo

Hi, I'm here to update some impressions.
The word expensive in terms of sound to me is a very refined but not overly colored sound, pretty much like how Johann Sebastian Bach's music sounds like. HA300 sounds "expensive". HA300's treble is the most impressive part to me. It is very natural and comfortable, everything is just smooth and it reveals all the details I want. The mid range is also very sweet, smooth however it is not like Woo's products that I tried that is very thick in mid and bass, where I think that's why some say HA300 has some SS amp's feature. HA300's bass could be faster and with more attack, it is very accurate but sometimes I was expecting it could go a little deeper. 
Well, I don't if it's proper to make a comparison in this thread, but I have to say I tried lots of amps from $2000 to $5000 and 2-3 $7000 level amps, HA300 is so far my favorite. I can't recall everything about DNA's stellaris, but to me these two amps are similar in sound, but stellaris has a better noise control with Utopia(still HA300 is surprisingly quiet with TH900, no humming at all...).
I tried my Uto, HD800s, HE6se, TH900, Tribute 7. My uto sounds just amazing with HA300, it is so attractive, it almost touches the "Utopia" but with a little humming lol. HA with HD800s and TH900 really surprised me, both of these 2 headphones sounds great, HA is able to control their treble, to me HA300 makes them beyond what they were in my mind and brought them to a completely new level. HE6se on HA300 is a little thin with vocals, to be honest I don't know what can drive he6 or 6se to a "perfect" level, I feel they have a potential that sounds better than hekv2, but I also feel there is no amp can completely control this monster. Tribute 7 on HA is a little dark, but I use them for portable anyway.
Overall, I think Cayin did a fantastic job on this amp, HA300 is a very satisfying amp at a very reasonable price. If you are looking for a amp under $4000 or even $5000 please check this one out! I'm going to start my tube rolling this BF, if there is a sale anywhere please let me know lol, thanks!


----------



## iceanddice

DrummerLeo said:


> Hi, I'm here to update some impressions.
> The word expensive in terms of sound to me is a very refined but not overly colored sound, pretty much like how Johann Sebastian Bach's music sounds like. HA300 sounds "expensive". HA300's treble is the most impressive part to me. It is very natural and comfortable, everything is just smooth and it reveals all the details I want. The mid range is also very sweet, smooth however it is not like Woo's products that I tried that is very thick in mid and bass, where I think that's why some say HA300 has some SS amp's feature. HA300's bass could be faster and with more attack, it is very accurate but sometimes I was expecting it could go a little deeper.
> Well, I don't if it's proper to make a comparison in this thread, but I have to say I tried lots of amps from $2000 to $5000 and 2-3 $7000 level amps, HA300 is so far my favorite. I can't recall everything about DNA's stellaris, but to me these two amps are similar in sound, but stellaris has a better noise control with Utopia(still HA300 is surprisingly quiet with TH900, no humming at all...).
> I tried my Uto, HD800s, HE6se, TH900, Tribute 7. My uto sounds just amazing with HA300, it is so attractive, it almost touches the "Utopia" but with a little humming lol. HA with HD800s and TH900 really surprised me, both of these 2 headphones sounds great, HA is able to control their treble, to me HA300 makes them beyond what they were in my mind and brought them to a completely new level. HE6se on HA300 is a little thin with vocals, to be honest I don't know what can drive he6 or 6se to a "perfect" level, I feel they have a potential that sounds better than hekv2, but I also feel there is no amp can completely control this monster. Tribute 7 on HA is a little dark, but I use them for portable anyway.
> Overall, I think Cayin did a fantastic job on this amp, HA300 is a very satisfying amp at a very reasonable price. If you are looking for a amp under $4000 or even $5000 please check this one out! I'm going to start my tube rolling this BF, if there is a sale anywhere please let me know lol, thanks!



Check out Aliexpress for deals on the WE300B Plus replicas by PsVane this coming Black Friday.  cheers!


----------



## Andykong

2018 is a special year to Cayin because this is our 25th Anniversary, we have delivered several milestone products that summarized our effort in past three four years. We are fortunate to have customers who take us seriously and valued our contribution. Our highest gratitude and appreciation on this special day – we are so grateful for your support and we are looking forward to a fruitful and exciting 2019, and we hope you'll be there with us. Happy Thanksgiving Day!


----------



## Benny-x

DrummerLeo said:


> Hi, I'm here to update some impressions.
> The word expensive in terms of sound to me is a very refined but not overly colored sound, pretty much like how Johann Sebastian Bach's music sounds like. HA300 sounds "expensive". HA300's treble is the most impressive part to me. It is very natural and comfortable, everything is just smooth and it reveals all the details I want. The mid range is also very sweet, smooth however it is not like Woo's products that I tried that is very thick in mid and bass, where I think that's why some say HA300 has some SS amp's feature. HA300's bass could be faster and with more attack, it is very accurate but sometimes I was expecting it could go a little deeper.
> Well, I don't if it's proper to make a comparison in this thread, but I have to say I tried lots of amps from $2000 to $5000 and 2-3 $7000 level amps, HA300 is so far my favorite. I can't recall everything about DNA's stellaris, but to me these two amps are similar in sound, but stellaris has a better noise control with Utopia(still HA300 is surprisingly quiet with TH900, no humming at all...).
> I tried my Uto, HD800s, HE6se, TH900, Tribute 7. My uto sounds just amazing with HA300, it is so attractive, it almost touches the "Utopia" but with a little humming lol. HA with HD800s and TH900 really surprised me, both of these 2 headphones sounds great, HA is able to control their treble, to me HA300 makes them beyond what they were in my mind and brought them to a completely new level. HE6se on HA300 is a little thin with vocals, to be honest I don't know what can drive he6 or 6se to a "perfect" level, I feel they have a potential that sounds better than hekv2, but I also feel there is no amp can completely control this monster. Tribute 7 on HA is a little dark, but I use them for portable anyway.
> Overall, I think Cayin did a fantastic job on this amp, HA300 is a very satisfying amp at a very reasonable price. If you are looking for a amp under $4000 or even $5000 please check this one out! I'm going to start my tube rolling this BF, if there is a sale anywhere please let me know lol, thanks!


Thanks for the write-up, it covered a lot of different headphones there. 

Can you share any info on where your Goldenwave GA-X sits in all of this?

And regarding the HE-6, there are 3 amps I've really gotten them to sing with:
1. Cavalli Audio - Liquid Gold
2. First Watt - F1J
3. Xindak - a600e MkII

If I had to pick 1, it'd be the F1J. It adds a little something more, like a little more meat on the bone, maybe. The Xindak is the best bargain, but it's been too long since I've compared the LAu to the 2 speaker amps, so I can't really place it. It also sounds great.

In the beginning, I could tell the HE-6s had qualities I liked, but they were severely limited by my amps. Now that I have the right stuff for them, the sound is really engaging and I'm sure I'll never let my pair go.


----------



## dadracer2

[/QUOTE]


[/QUOTE]



Andykong said:


> 2018 is a special year to Cayin because this is our 25th Anniversary, we have delivered several milestone products that summarized our effort in past three four years. We are fortunate to have customers who take us seriously and valued our contribution. Our highest gratitude and appreciation on this special day – we are so grateful for your support and we are looking forward to a fruitful and exciting 2019, and we hope you'll be there with us. Happy Thanksgiving Day!



I am hoping for an exciting 2019 as I am in the process of ordering an HA300. It will replace my existing KT66 integrated amp and ss headphone amp. The one question I have is about wifi interference. Has anyone found this to be a problem when say you are using a wifi streamer next to the HA300 please?


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## project86 (Jan 22, 2019)

dadracer2 said:


> I am hoping for an exciting 2019 as I am in the process of ordering an HA300. It will replace my existing KT66 integrated amp and ss headphone amp. The one question I have is about wifi interference. Has anyone found this to be a problem when say you are using a wifi streamer next to the HA300 please?



I've used the HA300 on the same rack as the Cayin iDap-6 running wireless networking, no issues. Also the Nativ Vita which I normally run via Ethernet, but initially did WiFi just to test it out.... no issues there either.

The streaming player is on one side of the rack, then HA300 a foot or two away, and the router is about 5 feet over to the other side. So it is in between the signals but not super close to either device.... I'm gonna say it's pretty safe but if you put a WiFi device within inches I suppose it could be a problem.

EDIT just remembered I used the iFi iDSD Pro for a while, within about a foot of the HA300, with WiFi streaming. No issues there either.


----------



## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> I am hoping for an exciting 2019 as I am in the process of ordering an HA300. It will replace my existing KT66 integrated amp and ss headphone amp. The one question I have is about wifi interference. Has anyone found this to be a problem when say you are using a wifi streamer next to the HA300 please?



We do receive user feedback that they need to relocate their router to a different room to get rid of interference, I guess that depends on the model of the router (some of the recent routers are monsters with 6-8 antenna shooting up to enhance transmission power) and wifi streamer is smaller problem when compare to router.   In general  tube amplifier tends to sensitive to ground hum more then wifi interference.  Make sure you have used shielded interconnects and properly plug into your equipment otherwise the cable will become an antenna picking up noise into your amplifier.


----------



## project86

Agreed, I have had more issues with ground-related noise than WiFi noise. That goes for tube amps but also SS headphone amps and even preamps etc. Ground loops and other issues are no joke.

I deal with phone noise more often than WiFi. Like when I'm testing a music server that is controlled by a phone, and I set the phone down on or next to the component, I get intermittent and very obvious interference. 

Not saying WiFi is not an issue at all but in my particular home it hasn't caused problems. And this with a massive Asus router. Your results may differ of course.


----------



## dadracer2

project86 said:


> Agreed, I have had more issues with ground-related noise than WiFi noise. That goes for tube amps but also SS headphone amps and even preamps etc. Ground loops and other issues are no joke.
> 
> I deal with phone noise more often than WiFi. Like when I'm testing a music server that is controlled by a phone, and I set the phone down on or next to the component, I get intermittent and very obvious interference.
> 
> Not saying WiFi is not an issue at all but in my particular home it hasn't caused problems. And this with a massive Asus router. Your results may differ of course.


Thanks both for your feedback and tips. I use a valve integrated at the moment (only tetrodes strapped as triodes) and there is not an issue so am hoping it is the same again. You are right about ground loops and I have an annoying buzz from my phono amp which I am having trouble solving.


----------



## project86

It also varies from headphone to headphone. I hear zero noise with HD650 but a _very _slight background grunge with HD660S. AKG K812 has a tiny bit of noise, K7XX has none at all. Fostex woodies are silent, Sony Z1R has noise if you listen closely. So not only does it vary but it can be hard to predict as well.


----------



## Andykong

We would like to thank all our friends, customers and partners for your continuous support throughout the year. We shall take a short break to reunion with our family and celebrate the Chinese New Year. We shall resume office on 14th February 2019.


----------



## DrummerLeo

I've heard lots of good feedback from headfiers who are in canjam and tried ha300. I believe ha-300 will become much more popular after the show. A true diamond will eventually shine out!


----------



## project86

Glad more people can experience this beast - it is exceptional!


----------



## westyjeff

I am loving mine,,,


----------



## Ethereal Sound

project86 said:


> Glad more people can experience this beast - it is exceptional!




oh man, that's practically my grail...


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## franz12

project86 said:


> Glad more people can experience this beast - it is exceptional!



From your picture, may I guess your holy grail is ifi Pro iDSD + Cayin HA-300?
 6.5k setup..definitely expensive, but not astronomical either..


----------



## project86

Well if we throw in the Titans Audio Lab Helen reclocker and the Nativ Vita music server, the total goes up beyond $10k... but those - while being fantastic devices imho - are probably not what @Ethereal Sound was thinking of in his end-game comment. 

Personally, having perhaps a bit more experience than most with various gear at all ends of the price spectrum... I'm forced to conclude that "end-game" or "holy grail" quality rarely tracks with price anyway.


----------



## yenrios

I've had the privilege to test the Cayin HA-300 with the Focal Utopia and it was a total revelation.
Like the perfect wedding

I hope to be able to spare more time with the HA-300 to test it further (at the expense of my seller )
So far, and with the time I was able to spend with it : VERY GOOD JOB Cayin, very impressive  !


----------



## Trickness

Hey all - I'm new here! I heard the HA-300 at CanJam NYC with the Meze Empys, loved the sound. I'm thinking of buying an HA-300, I currently have a Schiit Mjonir 2 with NOS tubes, really love it, but the siren song of the 300B is calling me. I'm a little concerned though that a fair amount of folks seem to have sold their HA-300s in the classifieds, and there's not a lot of action in this thread. I'm not necessarily fishing for negatives, just curious if there are any long terms owners here who can chime in with thoughts and/or anyone who sold theirs on can share why. I bought a set of the Empys which I absolutely love and should be a good match. Thanks in advance!


----------



## westyjeff (Apr 24, 2019)

Here is mine, this is an end game amplifier. I do have it for sale, but only because I am buying a home. Otherwise I would not sell. You can spend a lot more on a tube amplifier for headphones but the quality of this is going to be hard to match at this price point. I have pared it with multiple headphones, K7XX, HD58X, Focal Elex, Mr Speaker Alpha Prime, M1060. It has driven all of them perfectly with good warmth, sound stage and plenty of volume. I have tried different sources from Hiby R6 Pro, Geshelli ENOG 2 Pro but my favorite is my RME ADI 2. The RME sends higher current to the balanced inputs and really brings out the most this amp has to offer. This amp also has speaker posts and it works very well driving efficient speakers as well.


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## Level5 (Apr 25, 2019)

Trickness said:


> Hey all - I'm new here! I heard the HA-300 at CanJam NYC with the Meze Empys, loved the sound. I'm thinking of buying an HA-300, I currently have a Schiit Mjonir 2 with NOS tubes, really love it, but the siren song of the 300B is calling me. I'm a little concerned though that a fair amount of folks seem to have sold their HA-300s in the classifieds, and there's not a lot of action in this thread. I'm not necessarily fishing for negatives, just curious if there are any long terms owners here who can chime in with thoughts and/or anyone who sold theirs on can share why. I bought a set of the Empys which I absolutely love and should be a good match. Thanks in advance!



I actually sold mine last year simply because I wanted to dabble into electostats, but alas it was short lived. After trying a number of different amps (SS and non-300b amps), nothing really satisfied me except the HA-300 and its 300b tube magic. I had no choice but to buy another one!






I plan to utilize the speaker outputs because its such a waste to just use the 300b on headphones even though I already have KH310. I see omega speakers in my future...


----------



## westyjeff

I believe mine was @Level5 first HA-300.


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## Level5 (Apr 24, 2019)

westyjeff said:


> I believe mine was @Level5 first HA-300.



Haha wow she's still looking MINT! It seems the new batch changed the stock 300b tubes, no longer the  shape.


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## Trickness

Level5 said:


> I actually sold mine last year simply because I wanted to dabble into electostats, but alas it was short lived. After trying a number of different amps (SS and non-300b amps), nothing really satisfied me except the HA-300 and its 300b tube magic. I had no choice but to buy another one!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! I use a Schiit Yggdrasil and that is the combo with the Meze I heard at CanJam.  Haven’t been able to get that sound out of my head… How is the HA-300 with detail retrieval and soundstage? It was a little hard to tell in that environment


----------



## Thenewguy007

Trickness said:


> Thanks! I use a Schiit Yggdrasil and that is the combo with the Meze I heard at CanJam.  Haven’t been able to get that sound out of my head… How is the HA-300 with detail retrieval and soundstage? It was a little hard to tell in that environment



I wonder if anyone heard the HA-300 & the new Eddie Current Jr 300B amp. 
They are priced similarly. The Eddie Current amp doesn't look as nice as the Cayin, but they have a much better reputation for sound quality.


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## Level5 (Apr 24, 2019)

Trickness said:


> Thanks! I use a Schiit Yggdrasil and that is the combo with the Meze I heard at CanJam.  Haven’t been able to get that sound out of my head… How is the HA-300 with detail retrieval and soundstage? It was a little hard to tell in that environment


 
Detail retrieval is excellent and balanced on the stock tubes, it gets better when I switched to Psvane CV181-T mk2 but might be too fatiguing on long listening session. Soundstage is almost infinite when paired with my HD800 and there's times I almost gets fooled that I'm not listening to speakers lol. Some 300b tubes are not as wide however, but compared to non-300b tubes, its immense! 

I actually just got my HA-300 a few days ago and I've yet to fully burn in the stock tubes. I have other tubes awaiting to be rolled but I'm taking my time with stock tube configuration.


----------



## Level5

Forgot to mention that I previously was using a Holo Spring DAC on my first HA-300 and while I did enjoy its laid back presentation, to me it handicapped the detail and resolution compared to my Soekris 1541.


----------



## westyjeff

Thenewguy007 said:


> I wonder if anyone heard the HA-300 & the new Eddie Current Jr 300B amp.
> They are priced similarly. The Eddie Current amp doesn't look as nice as the Cayin, but they have a much better reputation for sound quality.



Eddie Current makes nice stuff, their 300B only does 4 watts to the speaker output, many other features/refinements on the Cayin HA-300 that just are not there on the EC Jr though.


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## Trickness

westyjeff said:


> Eddie Current makes nice stuff, their 300B only does 4 watts to the speaker output, many other features/refinements on the Cayin HA-300 that just are not there on the EC Jr though.



Yeah but on the other hand I’d imagine that the eddy current staff is a much simpler circuit that will be around and repairable for many years beyond the Cayin. I wonder if the E.C. even has any pcbs in the chassis? And I wonder if the Cayin is driving the tubes harder to get that greater output?


----------



## Trickness

Forgot to mention I have a Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated which I LOVE and I believe is manufactured in the same facility as some of the Cayin stuff if I’m not mistaken


----------



## Fatdoi

I am wondering on earlier posts there is a hum issue... Is it still there or it's been fixed?


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## Level5 (Apr 25, 2019)

Fatdoi said:


> I am wondering on earlier posts there is a hum issue... Is it still there or it's been fixed?



I'm currently not hearing any transformer hum or buzz on my new one with the stock tubes paired with my HD800, only when I upped the impedance selector to HIGH that I start to hear a very faint hum, but its not audible when music is playing and I prefer to keep at LOW or else I wont have as much play on the volume steps due to higher watts on balanced. However, some 300b tubes are more/prone to microphonics than others and also do make sure you don't have any ac line noise/ground loops issues and keep away any devices like wifi router or phones from causing the tubes to pick up those stray radio frequencies.


----------



## Level5 (Apr 25, 2019)

I want to mention that my previous tube amp (Dragon Inspire IHA-1) supposedly had some hum issues, but I didn't hear it on mine so YMMV!!! (due to a wide variety of setups/hps/tubes and etc)


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## westyjeff

No hum on mine, hum can be from the amplifier, tubes or even the source electrical supply, bad house wiring can induce a hum.


----------



## project86

I never heard hum on the review unit but there is just a tiny bit of that "tube hiss" or "grunge" that many tube amps have, depending on what headphones are used. I was able to get perfect, silent results with LCD-3, LCD-2, Susvara, HE1000, HD650 and HD800, various Fostex-based models like TH900 and TH-X00, plus the AKG K7XX. That's a lot of choices!

On the other hand, I did get a touch of background hiss when using AKG K812, Focal Utopia and Elex, Sony Z1R, and just a tiny bit with HD660S. This was not bothersome enough to ruin the listening experience in general, but it did impact my enjoyment of quiet classical recordings.

I'll note that very few potent tube-based amps like this are truly silent with all headphones.


----------



## Level5

I'm surprised nobody tried high efficient speakers yet or maybe I missed it? Usually I'm listening to speakers during the day, but each passing day, I've slowly started sneaking in some HD800 session. Its just hauntingly GOOD!


----------



## iceanddice

I use a Tekton Design Impact monitor with them. Compared to my Cayin mt35 mk2, which is definitely a lower tier of an amplifier, the HA300 emphasizes those lovely mids. I also believe it scales well in speaker setups with great DACs as the difference between a mojo and a Qutest is apparent. Not crazy night and day for the common man but I can tell the instrument separation is more prevalent with the Qutest. 

I use a Utopia and an Auteur on it as well.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Fatdoi said:


> I am wondering on earlier posts there is a hum issue... Is it still there or it's been fixed?



I also think most of the hums issues were with the balanced inputs.
I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the Cayin 300B uses separate smaller (cheaper) transformers inside the chassis for the XLR, while the RCA connections uses the superior larger transformers on the top of the amp?


----------



## iceanddice

Thenewguy007 said:


> I also think most of the hums issues were with the balanced inputs.
> I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the Cayin 300B uses separate smaller (cheaper) transformers inside the chassis for the XLR, while the RCA connections uses the superior larger transformers on the top of the amp?



I first noticed a hum when I changed 6sn7’s... but after some burn in the hum from the tube went away. Could be a case of burn in or rebiasing in my case! Other than that, I noticed a time where it picked up radio signal while speaker cables were attached to the taps. You’d hear a certain radio station especially if listening through cans. I was thinking my speaker cables werent shielded so I attached some ferrites and it fixed the problem.


----------



## Level5

iceanddice said:


> I use a Tekton Design Impact monitor with them. Compared to my Cayin mt35 mk2, which is definitely a lower tier of an amplifier, the HA300 emphasizes those lovely mids. I also believe it scales well in speaker setups with great DACs as the difference between a mojo and a Qutest is apparent. Not crazy night and day for the common man but I can tell the instrument separation is more prevalent with the Qutest.
> 
> I use a Utopia and an Auteur on it as well.



Thanks for the input! Going to try out those Tektons Impact monitors, since I heard they seem to be a good alternative to Klipsch Forte III's and actually useable for my mostly nearfield listening.


----------



## Benny-x

Thenewguy007 said:


> I also think most of the hums issues were with the balanced inputs.
> I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the Cayin 300B uses separate smaller (cheaper) transformers inside the chassis for the XLR, while the RCA connections uses the superior larger transformers on the top of the amp?



Not quite. The XLR input, 4-pin XLR output, and the speaker taps all use transformers to convert from the amp's native single ended, internal design to a balanced signal. 

In the case of the XLR input, the balanced signal is converted to single ended, then follows the standard signal path just like the RCA input, until you reach the output stage. 

In the case of the 4-pin XLR output and speaker taps, the amp's single ended internal signal then goes through output transformers to be converted to balanced. In the case of speakers, unless your amp is balanced end to end and uses a balanced attenuator (if it has one), there will always be a transformer or an op-amp on the output to create a regular+inverted signal to send to the speakers (+/-). 

And in the case of all SET (Single Ended Triode; 300B, 2A3, 845, etc.) speaker amps, they will have some kind of output transformer because the design requires that the internal signal be Single Ended. 

Someone might argue that these transformer conversions make the signal "less pure" or "less direct", but if the designers are designing everything from step 1 and there isn't some constraint, then you can bet that they know what they're dealing with and the conversion stage is leveraged in achieving the final sound. That doesn't mean they won't sound different or that one might have better synergy with your up/down stream components or that you might just prefer one to the other, though. 

"RCA in -> signal path -> 6.35mm TRS out" is the most 'direct' signal path this amp has. 

"XLR in -> conversion -> signal path -> conversion -> (A) 4-pin XLR or (B) speaker taps" is the 'less direct' signal path that that side follows.


----------



## Level5

Finally able to try the speaker outputs on my Tekton Impact and they sound even amazing! Plenty of power since they're only 4ohms/94db which is perfect for the HA-300's 4-8ohms @ 8w per ch and even better no hiss or hum!


----------



## Ricky64

Have to say, I was quite familiar to the Final D8000 prior to hearing it though this amp at RMAF in 2018. The HA 300 sounded remarkable in its imaging and dynamics. Thinking about one of these, although I'm not sure I have the room for it and a DAC on my desktop...


----------



## project86

Ricky64 said:


> Have to say, I was quite familiar to the Final D8000 prior to hearing it though this amp at RMAF in 2018. The HA 300 sounded remarkable in its imaging and dynamics. Thinking about one of these, although I'm not sure I have the room for it and a DAC on my desktop...



The size aspect is one of the few downsides I can think of when it comes to this amp. Thought it's not the only amp in the world to feature a large external power supply, the HA-300 is also rather tall and extremely heavy. So you really must have the space for it on your rack or desktop. 

I ran into trouble when I tried running my ModWright Instruments Oppo 205 (with external PSU) along with the HA-300 in a traditional audio rack (multi-tier, 20" wide). The umbilical cable on the Cayin could stand to be a bit longer.... or maybe give us an option of buying a longer one. Switched to my wide cabinet stand and the combo sounded amazing together, worth the effort for sure, but it's something to consider when planning out your system.


----------



## Trickness

project86 said:


> The size aspect is one of the few downsides I can think of when it comes to this amp. Thought it's not the only amp in the world to feature a large external power supply, the HA-300 is also rather tall and extremely heavy. So you really must have the space for it on your rack or desktop.
> 
> I ran into trouble when I tried running my ModWright Instruments Oppo 205 (with external PSU) along with the HA-300 in a traditional audio rack (multi-tier, 20" wide). The umbilical cable on the Cayin could stand to be a bit longer.... or maybe give us an option of buying a longer one. Switched to my wide cabinet stand and the combo sounded amazing together, worth the effort for sure, but it's something to consider when planning out your system.



The documentation says side-by-side the power supply and the amp are 17.4 inches wide… Is this correct?


----------



## project86

Sounds about right - together they basically add up to a typical full-size unit. 

But when many of my headphone amps use a more narrow form factor (Violectric, Pass Labs, Cavalli CTH, Arcam, Cayin iHA-6 and HA-1A mk2, etc), the HA-300 feels huge. 

Totally worth it though.


----------



## Andykong

Level5 said:


> I actually sold mine last year simply because I wanted to dabble into electostats, but alas it was short lived. After trying a number of different amps (SS and non-300b amps), nothing really satisfied me except the HA-300 and its 300b tube magic. I had no choice but to buy another one!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





westyjeff said:


> I believe mine was @Level5 first HA-300.



Now this is fate. 

@Level5  Now this is new to me, bought HA-300 twice and still love it?  This is the best endorsement from customer, something that drive us to work harder for next breakthrough.  Thank you.


----------



## Andykong

Trickness said:


> Yeah but on the other hand I’d imagine that the eddy current staff is a much simpler circuit that will be around and repairable for many years beyond the Cayin. I wonder if the E.C. even has any pcbs in the chassis? And I wonder if the Cayin is driving the tubes harder to get that greater output?



Well, I can't speak for EC but we sure didn't over-drive the tube to deliver the output we specified.  Please be reminded that the power of a transformer coupled tube amplifier actually comes from the output transformer, not the tube directly.  The size and quality of output transformer makes a lot of different and Cayin is one of the very few (if not the only) headphone amplifier manufacturer that design and wind all our transformers in-house.


----------



## Andykong

Level5 said:


> I'm currently not hearing any transformer hum or buzz on my new one with the stock tubes paired with my HD800, only when I upped the impedance selector to HIGH that I start to hear a very faint hum, but its not audible when music is playing and I prefer to keep at LOW or else I wont have as much play on the volume steps due to higher watts on balanced. However, some 300b tubes are more/prone to microphonics than others and also do make sure you don't have any ac line noise/ground loops issues and keep away any devices like wifi router or phones from causing the tubes to pick up those stray radio frequencies.



Actually that is a common issue with DHT (Direct Heated Triode), so 45, 2A3, 300B, 845 all suffer from the same microphonic issue.  Event the Nutube we used in N8 shared the same characteristics.

And the sauce of interference can literally drive you crazy.  Someone shared recently that after he replaced the keyboard of his computer, the hum disappeared completely. and that's because the keyboard has LED lights built in. Isn't that crazy?


----------



## Andykong

Thenewguy007 said:


> I also think most of the hums issues were with the balanced inputs.
> I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the Cayin 300B uses separate smaller (cheaper) transformers inside the chassis for the XLR, while the RCA connections uses the superior larger transformers on the top of the amp?





Benny-x said:


> Not quite. The XLR input, 4-pin XLR output, and the speaker taps all use transformers to convert from the amp's native single ended, internal design to a balanced signal.
> 
> In the case of the XLR input, the balanced signal is converted to single ended, then follows the standard signal path just like the RCA input, until you reach the output stage.
> 
> ...



@Benny-x is correct, both 6.35mm  and XLR4 output employes  same output transformer for final stage amplification, so you can consider them identical in that aspect.  The only different is input transformer, RCA input go straight to the 6SN7 circuit but the XLR input will do through a pair of input transformer before feeding to the 6SN7.   The input transformer is working with low level signal only, so it is a small transformer by design, there is no point for us to cut corner on this inexpensive component.

Theoretically using RCA input will skip the input transformer stage, purist audiophile definitely will prefer this.  However we have allow users to AB compare the XLR and RCA inputs in multiple shows and exhibition already.  When we connect the XLR and RCA input of HA-300 to the same DAC, and using similar cable (well,  we use Cayin XLR and RCA cable, so the shielding and conductors are the same), the different is inaudible according to visitors even when they AB compare it repeatedly.


----------



## Level5 (May 6, 2019)

Andykong said:


> Now this is fate.
> 
> @Level5  Now this is new to me, bought HA-300 twice and still love it?  This is the best endorsement from customer, something that drive us to work harder for next breakthrough.  Thank you.


 
Yes and what makes it worse is after getting it back and using the HD800, I've fallen out of love for PRO speakers (KH310) and actually preferred listening to HD800 instead which is just crazy! So I remedied the issue and got a different speaker to be able to use it on the HA-300 and now its the other way around, the way it should be.  Speakers > Headphones

Once you get a taste of 300b, its kinda hard to go back!


----------



## Level5 (May 6, 2019)

The only MAJOR downside is this thing puts out serious heat which is a serious issue this summer where I live. My AC is already working overtime ever since it arrived and managing the AC noise is my real noise issue with this amp! 

First world Class A + tubes problems!!!


----------



## iceanddice

Look Andy, he got the Impact monitors too!




Andykong said:


> Now this is fate.
> 
> @Level5  Now this is new to me, bought HA-300 twice and still love it?  This is the best endorsement from customer, something that drive us to work harder for next breakthrough.  Thank you.


----------



## Andykong

iceanddice said:


> Look Andy, he got the Impact monitors too!



Speechless, so are brothers in audio, do you guys drive the same car? or use the same mobile phone?


----------



## Andykong

Level5 said:


> Yes and what makes it worse is after getting it back and using the HD800, I've fallen out of love for PRO speakers (KH310) and actually preferred listening to HD800 instead which is just crazy! So I remedied the issue and got a different speaker to be able to use it on the HA-300 and now its the other way around, the way it should be.  Speakers > Headphones
> 
> Once you get a taste of 300b, its kinda hard to go back!



Speaker is definitely a better channel to experience your music, ... if you have the room to setup the speakers properly, no doubt about that.

But headphone has its up side too. You can easily own and enjoy multiple headphones in your system, a lot of friends in this thread will keep 3, 4, or even 10 pairs of headphones besides their system, I bet you can't do that with your speaker setup.  Changing headphone for different mood and music genre is fun, especially when you have a headphone amplifier like HA-300, it is so versatile and literally make every headphone sing at their best.


----------



## Andykong

Cayin will host a booth at Hall 4 S04/T07, and we have HA-300 setup for audition, with our flagship source CS-100DAC.  Our i-Series 3-pieces stack (iDAP-6, iDAC-6MK2, iHA-6) and HA-1AMK2 will also be displayed.  If anyone plans to visit Munich High-end (9-12 May), please drop by and say Hi, I am sure you'll be excited by our new products.

One last note, I have left my full-time role from Cayin but I'll continue to serve the brand under a new capacitor. I'll participate in all the Cayin product threads as usual, so the change probably is minimal for HeadFi forum friends and customers.


----------



## Benny-x

Andykong said:


> Cayin will host a booth at Hall 4 S04/T07, and we have HA-300 setup for audition, with our flagship source CS-100DAC.  Our i-Series 3-pieces stack (iDAP-6, iDAC-6MK2, iHA-6) and HA-1AMK2 will also be displayed.  If anyone plans to visit Munich High-end (9-12 May), please drop by and say Hi, I am sure you'll be excited by our new products.
> 
> One last note, I have left my full-time role from Cayin but I'll continue to serve the brand under a new capacitor. I'll participate in all the Cayin product threads as usual, so the change probably is minimal for HeadFi forum friends and customers.


That's too bad, Andy. I've always really appreciated your work and support at Cayin. I hope the move is a positive one and you enjoy whatever new work you'll be focusing on.


----------



## ken6217

Doses anyone know the width of the power supply and also of the amplifier?


----------



## Trickness

ken6217 said:


> Doses anyone know the width of the power supply and also of the amplifier?



It’s on the website, although the dimension of the power supply is incorrect:

https://en.cayin.cn/products_info?itemid=112

It’s under 19 inches total. 

Nice Streetfighter btw.


----------



## ken6217

Thanks for the measurements. I had noticed the power supply dimensions had to be incorrect and that's why I wanted to check here.

I noticed that you have the Empyreans. I do as well. Best headphones I've owned.

Thanks. The Streetfighter is from the first year it came out. It has the 1098 engine. I'm not sure if they still make it or not.
Ken


----------



## Trickness

ken6217 said:


> Thanks for the measurements. I had noticed the power supply dimensions had to be incorrect and that's why I wanted to check here.
> 
> I noticed that you have the Empyreans. I do as well. Best headphones I've owned.
> 
> ...



I've owned about 15 Ducatis over the years, my favorite bikes by far. Funny that the Meze Empyreans and the HA-300 appeal in the same way a Ducati does - limited production, unique craftsmanship and design, perhaps a bit high maintenance but with an indefinable emotional appeal. Sounds like ad copy but I really gravitate to products where the manufacturer has a passion that shows in their products, no matter what it is....a motorcycle, a pair of chopsticks or coffee.


----------



## ken6217

I know what you mean. This is the only Duc that I've owned. I have however owned 4 BMW R1200RT's. Everytime I decide to sell one and try out another bike, I keep coming back to the RT. I do a lot of touring so this bike suits me. Actually, I am going to drive down to Maryland to visit my son in a few weeks, and then I'm going to ride west to West Virginia. Excellent riding there.


----------



## dadracer2

Its 17.5 inches in old money or 44.5cm if you are of a metric persuasion. I guess you will leave a little gap between them on a shelf/table so should be fine even on my aging equipment stand which currently is home to a KT66 powered integrated which is bigger and heavier still! Roll on the 20th June.......


----------



## ken6217

dadracer2 said:


> Its 17.5 inches in old money or 44.5cm if you are of a metric persuasion. I guess you will leave a little gap between them on a shelf/table so should be fine even on my aging equipment stand which currently is home to a KT66 powered integrated which is bigger and heavier still! Roll on the 20th June.......



Thanks! 

So what is June 20?


----------



## dadracer2

Delivery day!


----------



## ken6217

Oh, I thought you had one already.


----------



## dadracer2

Sadly no, just been saving up my pocket money as I need to swap out my speakers due to the lower output on the HA300. If only Cayin had used a circuit that utilised the 300BXLS valve........but then it would have been more costly and less of an outrageous bargain.


----------



## ken6217

But in the end you’re ending up getting the amp, so that’s good.


----------



## ken6217

Can 6SN7GT and 6SN7GTB be used?


----------



## dadracer2

ken6217 said:


> But in the end you’re ending up getting the amp, so that’s good.


Yes indeed


----------



## Andykong

Benny-x said:


> That's too bad, Andy. I've always really appreciated your work and support at Cayin. I hope the move is a positive one and you enjoy whatever new work you'll be focusing on.



Well, I am still around representing Cayin (and Meze) on HeadFi, but I am no longer in their decision chain.


----------



## Andykong

ken6217 said:


> Can 6SN7GT and 6SN7GTB be used?



Yes, 6SN7GT is definitely a regular 6SN7 and you can use it in HA-300 for sure.  6SN7GTB, to the best of my knowledge, has introduced controlled heater warmup time to to reduce the voltage imbalance on power up. This was a customization for TV appliance, it won't make any different to HA-300 electrically, so you can use this in HA-300 as well, but not sure if the sound will not be affected.


----------



## ken6217

Hi Andy,
Thanks for the reply. 

I’m receiving my amp today. 

During breakin, can I run the amp for several hours at a time, or is that not good for it?


----------



## Clive101

Has anyone compared the HA 300 to the Woo WA33...?

I need advice as going to make a purchase shortly and unable to decide which one to go for.

Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks....


----------



## Andykong

ken6217 said:


> Hi Andy,
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I’m receiving my amp today.
> ...



Surely not a problem.  We keep the HA-300 running all day at shows and exhibition.  At Munich High-end last month, the longest day is 9 to 7, HA-300 operates for 10 hours non-stop.


----------



## ken6217

Andykong said:


> Surely not a problem.  We keep the HA-300 running all day at shows and exhibition.  At Munich High-end last month, the longest day is 9 to 7, HA-300 operates for 10 hours non-stop.



Thanks.  I should have added that is it OK to leave it unattended sometimes while doing so? I was wondering about if a tube failed etc. I’ve never had to amp before and so I want to make sure.


----------



## Andykong

Clive101 said:


> Has anyone compared the HA 300 to the Woo WA33...?
> 
> I need advice as going to make a purchase shortly and unable to decide which one to go for.
> 
> ...



Do you mean WA5?  I came across a lot of customers asking for pro and cons with reference to WA5 because we are both 300B based, two boxes design and provides speaker output, especially those who didn't have the opportunity to audition HA-300 but have come across WA5 in various occasion.  Comparing HA-300 against WA33 is relatively uncommon in my experience.


----------



## Clive101

Andykong said:


> Do you mean WA5?  I came across a lot of customers asking for pro and cons with reference to WA5 because we are both 300B based, two boxes design and provides speaker output, especially those who didn't have the opportunity to audition HA-300 but have come across WA5 in various occasion.  Comparing HA-300 against WA33 is relatively uncommon in my experience.


Hello Andy,
I did mean the WA33, but by your answer the WA5 is in the same ball park.
So I guess the WA33 is a different beast entirely....briefly I would be interested to learn the difference ( I am a novice with tubes )


----------



## ken6217

Clive101 said:


> Hello Andy,
> I did mean the WA33, but by your answer the WA5 is in the same ball park.
> So I guess the WA33 is a different beast entirely....briefly I would be interested to learn the difference ( I am a novice with tubes )



It would be pretty rare to get anyone from a given company that’s going to give a comparison of their product to another regardless of what that product is to someone else’s in the same industry. It’s not even about if he or she feels their product is better, the same, are not as good. It’s just a good business practice not to get involved with that type of question.


----------



## Clive101

ken6217 said:


> It would be pretty rare to get anyone from a given company that’s going to give a comparison of their product to another regardless of what that product is to someone else’s in the same industry. It’s not even about if he or she feels their product is better, the same, are not as good. It’s just a good business practice not to get involved with that type of question.



Yes, I agree and understand ( it's a forum rule for members of the trade ) but Andy did ask me a question to clarify as it was an unusual question (I see why, now) , I responded so someone else maybe able to help.?

They are both good products I have no doubt.... but surely there is some difference. For example power or sound.?


----------



## ken6217

Actually, I’ve had a few occasions where I spoke to the company that I bought a component from and asked them for a recommendation on something that was out of their lane, like for instance a cable recommendation, and they said their policy is not to do recommendations.


----------



## Yassa

I need to hear the ampsandsound's Suolo Mono before i purchase the HA-300. 

The 1626 is commonly referred to as the “Poor Man’s 300B” so i am intrigued.


----------



## Andykong

Clive101 said:


> Hello Andy,
> I did mean the WA33, but by your answer the WA5 is in the same ball park.
> So I guess the WA33 is a different beast entirely....briefly I would be interested to learn the difference ( I am a novice with tubes )



First of all, you are entitle to that question, and I don't mean A is better then B in whatever sense, I just want to make sure you did get the model right.

I doubt because :

(1)  300B is a legendary tube among audiophiles, it has a special magic on midrange (vocal and violin) and the harmonic is so rich that  music tracks with acoustic instrument will draw you into the music instantly.  That's why when someone wants a 300B amplifier, quite often they'll only focus on 300B options.
(2)  WA33 is priced at US$8000 to US$15,000, quite a big budget different when compare to HA-300.  The WA5, on the other hand, are much closer to each.  Customers tends to compare product within a smaller budget range, that's why I describe your HA-300 vs WA33 question as "uncommon".  Nothing wrong with that, just "uncommon".


----------



## Andykong

Yassa said:


> I need to hear the ampsandsound's Suolo Mono before i purchase the HA-300.
> 
> The 1626 is commonly referred to as the “Poor Man’s 300B” so i am intrigued.



A very interesting analogy.  When someone said, this mobile phone X is a poor man's iphone, normally we expect Phone X is cheaper than an iPhone, but in this case, Suolo Mono is more expensive then HA-300.


----------



## Yassa (Jun 6, 2019)

Andykong said:


> A very interesting analogy.  When someone said, this mobile phone X is a poor man's iphone, normally we expect Phone X is cheaper than an iPhone, but in this case, Suolo Mono is more expensive then HA-300.




The 1626 is commonly referred to as the “Poor Man’s 300B” Quoted from the ampsandsound product page i should have made it clear before.

poor man's 300B cost $5,500 hence the " intrigued " part and also how it actually sounds.


----------



## ken6217

How many hours typically for break in?


----------



## Andykong (Jun 7, 2019)

ken6217 said:


> How many hours typically for break in?



I don't pay a lot of attention to this.  I hear the different, but it is not night and day.  I  have a habit to run the amplifier for 2 days non-stop (around 50 hours) when I received it.  Beyond that, changes are subtle.


----------



## iceanddice

Andykong said:


> I don't pay a lot of attention to this.  I hear the different, but it is not night and day.  I  have a habit to run the DAP for 2 days non-stop (around 50 hours) when I received it.  Beyond that, changes are subtle.



Would it be the tubes more than the amp itself that would benefit from burn in?


----------



## Andykong

iceanddice said:


> Would it be the tubes more than the amp itself that would benefit from burn in?



The Transformer and tubes would benefit from burn in., IMHO.


----------



## ken6217

I know people listen at different volume level, but I noticed in a couple of reviews that it was mentioned that they didn't have much play in the volume knob as it was very loud even set at the first two clicks or so. 

I'm using the Empyrean headphones with a Metrum Pavane DAC which outputs 4 volts. My XLR interconnects have a switch to match the impedance to the amp. While listening, the volume knob on the amp is usually between 11:00 - 12:00. 

This would seem pretty normal to me but after seeing those reviews, I'm wondering if my amp is functioning properly.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## westyjeff

ken6217 said:


> I know people listen at different volume level, but I noticed in a couple of reviews that it was mentioned that they didn't have much play in the volume knob as it was very loud even set at the first two clicks or so.
> 
> I'm using the Empyrean headphones with a Metrum Pavane DAC which outputs 4 volts. My XLR interconnects have a switch to match the impedance to the amp. While listening, the volume knob on the amp is usually between 11:00 - 12:00.
> 
> ...



That is typically were my volume knob is, M1060, Elex, 58XX, MrSpeaker Alpha Prime need a little more.


----------



## iceanddice (Jun 7, 2019)

ken6217 said:


> I know people listen at different volume level, but I noticed in a couple of reviews that it was mentioned that they didn't have much play in the volume knob as it was very loud even set at the first two clicks or so.
> 
> I'm using the Empyrean headphones with a Metrum Pavane DAC which outputs 4 volts. My XLR interconnects have a switch to match the impedance to the amp. While listening, the volume knob on the amp is usually between 11:00 - 12:00.
> 
> ...



Utopias are around 10-11 for me as well. Auteur about the same as far as i can remember before selling them.

RCA from a Qutest as my DAC. They’re around 1-3 oclock with my speakers which are the Tekton Impact Monitors.


----------



## ken6217

Thanks!


----------



## Spareribs

Looks like a killer amp. I like the fact that it uses rectifier tubes.


----------



## ken6217

I developed a tizz/buzz noise. I’m not sure where if it  is coming from the power supply or the amp self. You’re starting after I replace the driver tubes with a pair of older Tung Sol 6SN7GT tubes  I don’t hear it through the headphones though. 

 I put back the original stock driver tubes, and ithr noise is still there. Any ideas what this is and there’s any issue with the amp now?


----------



## ken6217

The above resolved itself and went away.


----------



## ken6217

Can ECC32 tubes definitely be used in this amp? It won't overdrive it?


----------



## GuyForkes

I would like to use my preamp, the Rogue Audio RP-7, as the source input to the HA-300. I want to avoid having to physically swap interconnects on my DAC every time I switch between using the HA-300 and my power amp. The preamp allows me to switch between outputs at the push of a button. Before I try this, would like to find out whether it is safe to do so given that the RP-7 has quite a lot of gain (20db via XLR). Would there be issues (safety or otherwise) with connecting my preamp to the HA-300?

To help, these are the specs for the RP-7:
- Tube complement: 4 x 12AU7/ECC82 tubes
- Frequency response: 1Hz – 100KHz +/- 1 dB
- THD: <0.1%
- Gain line stage: 14 dB (20dB XLR)
- Rated output: 1V
- Maximum output: 30V
- Output impedance: <10 Ohms

Appreciate any advice I can get on this.


----------



## westyjeff

I have noticed when changing from low, mid and high impedance I hear a difference between low and mid but not mid to high, can anyone else comment on this?


----------



## LCMusicLover

westyjeff said:


> I have noticed when changing from low, mid and high impedance I hear a difference between low and mid but not mid to high, can anyone else comment on this?


Depends on the impedance response curve for your cans.


----------



## Ake_Y

I am a newbie, especially for tube amp. I noticed that 22DE4 rectifier tubes are no longer in production. Where could I find the 22DE4 tubes in case I would like to roll up or else ? I tried Google and eBay, but there are not many 22DE4 tubes out there. Also there is no alternate rectifier tube options per HA-300 manual.


----------



## westyjeff

Ake_Y said:


> I am a newbie, especially for tube amp. I noticed that 22DE4 rectifier tubes are no longer in production. Where could I find the 22DE4 tubes in case I would like to roll up or else ? I tried Google and eBay, but there are not many 22DE4 tubes out there. Also there is no alternate rectifier tube options per HA-300 manual.



Look here:

https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/rectifiers/22DE4


----------



## Ake_Y (Jun 28, 2019)

I tried HA-300 with my Ether2 at authorized shop yesterday. Unluckily, my iPhone could not connect to shop's DAC so I just listened to shop's cd, which are vocal audiophiles and instrumental. It was the first time I heard music from tube amp. The vocal is sweet like next to my ears. The instruments has layer and dimensions. I like it a lot. However, I normally listen to most kinds of music, like R&B, Jazz, Pop, Acoustics, Pop dance ( Michael Jackson : Dangerous / Thriller ) , and Rock ( AC/DC ) . I have no idea how HA-300 will perform with fast-tempo songs like Pop dance and Rock. Most friends of mine said that the sound should be sluggish and unpleasant. To all HA-300 owners, please comments. Thank you.


----------



## westyjeff

I find it works well for all of the music genres I listen too, house, rock, electronic, DISCO! The HA-300 has the extra voltage/wattage to carry the high demands of bass heavy music.


----------



## GuyForkes

Ake_Y said:


> I tried HA-300 with my Ether2 at authorized shop yesterday. Unluckily, my iPhone could not connect to shop's DAC so I just listened to shop's cd, which are vocal audiophiles and instrumental. It was the first time I heard music from tube amp. The vocal is sweet like next to my ears. The instruments has layer and dimensions. I like it a lot. However, I normally listen to most kinds of music, like R&B, Jazz, Pop, Acoustics, Pop dance ( Michael Jackson : Dangerous / Thriller ) , and Rock ( AC/DC ) . I have no idea how HA-300 will perform with fast-tempo songs like Pop dance and Rock. Most friends of mine said that the sound should be sluggish and unpleasant. To all HA-300 owners, please comments. Thank you.



Well implemented modern tube amps (like the HA-300) have no problems with modern music. The sluggishness/gooeyness you're describing is usually associated with older tube gear. The HA-300 is quite fast, though maybe slower than something like GS-X MKII. Where it excels is in its naturalness and ability to create space and layers between instruments to produce that holographic image that no solid state amp is able to recreate.


----------



## ken6217

GuyForkes said:


> Well implemented modern tube amps (like the HA-300) have no problems with modern music. The sluggishness/gooeyness you're describing is usually associated with older tube gear. The HA-300 is quite fast, though maybe slower than something like GS-X MKII. Where it excels is in its naturalness and ability to create space and layers between instruments to produce that holographic image that no solid state amp is able to recreate.



Well said. I have had solid state amps my entire life. I currently have a Violectric V281. I bought the HA-300 3 weeks ago and I am pleasantly surprised. It is exactly how it is described above. 

I listen to mostly classic rock and I love this amp.


----------



## GuyForkes

ken6217 said:


> Well said. I have had solid state amps my entire life. I currently have a Violectric V281. I bought the HA-300 3 weeks ago and I am pleasantly surprised. It is exactly how it is described above.
> 
> I listen to mostly classic rock and I love this amp.



This will ruin solid state amps for you. Don't think you'll be going back for awhile. I havent heard a solid state amp that I've liked since owning the HA-300.


----------



## Ake_Y

Thank you for your comments... westyjeff, GuyForkes, and ken6217. I will go back to the shop and try with my thumb drive and cd. I have one last question. If I buy HA-300, I will put it in my bedroom. My concern is the heat. From my last experience, the power supply will create lots of heat, especially when HA-300 is at idle. I intend to keep it on the rack, but not on the top to avoid people to play around like touching tubes or else. Please advise.


----------



## ken6217

GuyForkes said:


> This will ruin solid state amps for you. Don't think you'll be going back for awhile. I havent heard a solid state amp that I've liked since owning the HA-300.



I have a feeling that you are right.


----------



## ken6217

Ake_Y said:


> Thank you for your comments... westyjeff, GuyForkes, and ken6217. I will go back to the shop and try with my thumb drive and cd. I have one last question. If I buy HA-300, I will put it in my bedroom. My concern is the heat. From my last experience, the power supply will create lots of heat, especially when HA-300 is at idle. I intend to keep it on the rack, but not on the top to avoid people to play around like touching tubes or else. Please advise.



It doesn't have a standby. I turn it off when I'm not using it. It des give off heat when in use though. I would doubt it would heat up your bedroom.


----------



## westyjeff

you will need to power it off when not in use.


----------



## dadracer2

I got mine about a week ago and it is a remarkable amplifier. I had a good KT66 powered amp and separate SS powered Headphone amp but this is a whole new level. The only downside was having to change speakers for something more efficient. While I appreciate this is a headphone forum I just wondered what speakers other owners are using?
On the headphone front I believe this is the best amp for HD800S I have ever heard. If anyone from Sennheiser is reading this, please do a deal with Cayin to commision a black version which can then be renamed the HA800.


----------



## ken6217

I was changing driver tubes and turned on the amp forgot that the headphones were not connected. It was on for I'd say less than 2 minutes and the volume setting was on the first click. I quickly shut off the amp. Do you think this did any damage to the amp or tubes?


----------



## GuyForkes

ken6217 said:


> I was changing driver tubes and turned on the amp forgot that the headphones were not connected. It was on for I'd say less than 2 minutes and the volume setting was on the first click. I quickly shut off the amp. Do you think this did any damage to the amp or tubes?



I don't think any damage was done. I usually only plug in the headphones after warming the amp up for about 15mins (with volume at 2 o'clock). This happens daily without any problems.


----------



## ken6217

Thanks. I didn’t hear any difference but I had always heard about not having an amp turned on without speakers attached and wondered.


----------



## ken6217

Can I use the EML 300B-XLS. I believe it is higher power.


----------



## dadracer2

ken6217 said:


> Can I use the EML 300B-XLS. I believe it is higher power.



It is my understanding you can use these or the KR 300B XLS but that it won’t result in more power. It is because that would necessitate a change in the circuit design. I don’t think Cayin want to do that.


----------



## ken6217

Thanks.  I heard both of these tubes were good, but don’t know if that’s based on the extra power they can achieve or just the sonic signature that they have.


----------



## dadracer2

ken6217 said:


> Thanks.  I heard both of these tubes were good, but don’t know if that’s based on the extra power they can achieve or just the sonic signature that they have.



I don't know too much about the EMLs but I have good confidence in the KRs (and their amps) as my HiFi dealer retails them. I think that KR are one of only a few companies who make the valves for their amps in their own factory (although GEC are now making amps as well as valves). They make a standard 300B as well as an XLS and the XLS appears to deliver about twice the wattage so are also more expensive. As I said Andy Kong told me that Cayin would have to change the circuit to get the power benefit of the XLS and were not planning on this as it would then be too powerful for some IEMs. I know there are reviews of 300Bs around and the EML seems to be a good one although there are a range of versions. So maybe speak to a dealer or some folks you can trust about which 300B would suit you best and maybe what you can afford (if that's an issue) but I think the XLS versions wouldn't be worth it as you can't take the main benefit.    

Hope that helps?


----------



## ken6217

Yes. Very helpful. Thanks so much!


----------



## dadracer2

ken6217 said:


> Yes. Very helpful. Thanks so much!



You are most welcome. I wish I understood more tech but here's a thing you might want to check. Take a look at the valve seats and see if they say "Full Music 300B/n" as that means they are the TJ Full Music valves which are very well regarded and not just cheap and nasty valves to keep the amp costs down! There are several version of the TJ FM 300B and the SE version seems to be one of the best around. So if you feel the urge to upgrade that might be the place to start as it should build on the basic character of the amp......maybe?  Anyway let me know what you decide in case I want to copy you!!!


----------



## ken6217

The stock tubes say Full Music 300B/n. 

I'll let you know what I decide on doing. Btw, if you haven't experimented with the 6SN7 tubes, try that. You get a bigger difference in changing these out than the 300b tubes.


----------



## dadracer2

Thanks yes I wondered about those. Probably cheaper too!


----------



## Andykong

GuyForkes said:


> I would like to use my preamp, the Rogue Audio RP-7, as the source input to the HA-300. I want to avoid having to physically swap interconnects on my DAC every time I switch between using the HA-300 and my power amp. The preamp allows me to switch between outputs at the push of a button. Before I try this, would like to find out whether it is safe to do so given that the RP-7 has quite a lot of gain (20db via XLR). Would there be issues (safety or otherwise) with connecting my preamp to the HA-300?
> 
> To help, these are the specs for the RP-7:
> - Tube complement: 4 x 12AU7/ECC82 tubes
> ...



The maximum output of RP-7 is 30V, that is quite a lot when compare to the standard XLR line output of DAC (4V in general).

However, this is maximum output only, I don't suppose you'll turn up the volume kof your RP-7 to maximum even with your speaker. So its a matter of setting the volume (or output) of your PR-7 to an appropriate level when you use it as the source of your HA-300.  I recommend the following procedure to determine the suitable volume setting of PR-7

Connect your DAC to HA-300, preferably in XLR, plug in your favourite (and most familiar) headphone.
Play some familiar tune and set the volume to your preferred level.
Keep the volume level and setting of HA-300, turn it off, and now connect the DAC to PR-7, and then connect PR-7 to HA-300 in XLR.
Turn the volume of PR-7 to 0, power on the PR-7 and HA-300.
Play the same music files/CD again and gradually turn up the volume of PR-7 until you reached the same sound level from your headphone.  This is one of the potential volume setting of PR-7 when serve as source of HA-300.  Make sure you don't change anything on the HA-300 during the test.
Now repeat the process with a different headphone, and arrived at the second set of potential volume setting of PR-7.
If these two setting is vastly different, you might need to repeat the test with more headphones.  Otherwise you can use the mean of the two potential volume setting as your final volume setting when connect PR-7 to HA-300


----------



## GuyForkes

Andykong said:


> The maximum output of RP-7 is 30V, that is quite a lot when compare to the standard XLR line output of DAC (4V in general).
> 
> However, this is maximum output only, I don't suppose you'll turn up the volume kof your RP-7 to maximum even with your speaker. So its a matter of setting the volume (or output) of your PR-7 to an appropriate level when you use it as the source of your HA-300.  I recommend the following procedure to determine the suitable volume setting of PR-7
> 
> ...



Thanks for the helpful advice Andy! Will try it this evening


----------



## project86

My review of the HA-300 is (finally) complete - take a look if you are interested. I know a growing number of folks in this thread already own the amp but at least there are pretty pictures to view.....

I agree with the past few pages where folks called out the imaging, layering, etc as particularly noteworthy. But it's hard to keep up with all the things this amp does well.


----------



## westyjeff

Nice review, great pictures, looks like the one on my desk!


----------



## ken6217

Great review. Too bad you didn’t have the Empyrean at the time you did the review. 

I don’t find the same problem that you did with the volume control. I play music between 11 and 12 o’clock on mine. There were others on this thread that said similar as well.


----------



## project86

Yep, I've realized that my hearing is super sensitive and thus I prefer lower levels than most people around here. It's a blessing and a curse....


----------



## ken6217

Your comment about the gain however was mentioned in another review as well.


----------



## project86

As much as my hearing is admittedly sensitive, I do think the HA-300 should have the ability to go lower in volume. With HD660S or K812 (among others) there's just no way to listen at quiet levels. It comes on with moderate volume and ramps up quickly from there. 

And yeah, I can make it work, but someone in the mood for quieter listening with those headphones would be out of luck if their source doesn't have volume control. Jazz and classical works better but a lot of modern music is already really hot in the mix anyway, which doesn't help.

I just think the top 5-10 volume steps (out of 24) are unlikely to be useful for most people, outside of maybe Susvara or HE6 type headphones. And there's a gain switch as well... so I would expect a full range from "barely audible" to "way too loud". And HA-300 does not accomplish that.

Again, nitpicking a bit.... but something to be aware of.


----------



## westyjeff

After your comment about the K7XX I had to get mine out and turn up some Van Halen,,,,,,,Damn forgot how good these are with a little bass added. Hot for Teacher !!


----------



## ken6217

project86 said:


> I just think the top 5-10 volume steps (out of 24) are unlikely to be useful for most people, outside of maybe Susvara or HE6 type headphones. And there's a gain switch as well... so I would expect a full range from "barely audible" to "way too loud". And HA-300 does not accomplish that.



I find it odd that your amp plays this way and I play mine at approx 50% up in the volume knob,
even taking into account volume preferences. My DAC outputs 4V which is pretty standard.


----------



## westyjeff

ken6217 said:


> I find it odd that your amp plays this way and I play mine at approx 50% up in the volume knob,
> even taking into account volume preferences. My DAC outputs 4V which is pretty standard.



I felt the same about this comment, my volume is plenty low at one or two clicks, progressivly louder untill 12 which is high, but thats where I like it. Impedance at M.


----------



## ken6217

westyjeff said:


> I felt the same about this comment, my volume is plenty low at one or two clicks, progressivly louder untill 12 which is high, but thats where I like it. Impedance at M.



Same impedance for me as well.


----------



## project86 (Jul 14, 2019)

It's all down to headphone choice. I can crank up to 50% with Audeze or HiFiMAN, no problem. Using a K812 though, not so much. Westyjeff, try your Elex (which I like with this amp) then imagine it being even more sensitive.

EDIT I also like it at the Low impedance setting which feels the loudest of the three settings. I find the other two mess with the bass definition on many headphones (dynamic drivers specifically) so I prefer low despite the potential volume issues.


----------



## Andykong

project86 said:


> My review of the HA-300 is (finally) complete - take a look if you are interested. I know a growing number of folks in this thread already own the amp but at least there are pretty pictures to view.....
> 
> I agree with the past few pages where folks called out the imaging, layering, etc as particularly noteworthy. But it's hard to keep up with all the things this amp does well.



When John said "for 90% of the headphones I tried, the result was up there among the very best performance that particular headphone has ever displayed - which means the HA-300 is doing something right", I take that as the biggest compliment to our HA-300 ever.   I am sure the very positive impression with Sennheiser, HiFiman, Fostex and Audeze has drawn the attention of a lot headphone collectors already,  let's hope the HA-300 will now be included in their audition list after this reviews get published.

Regarding the Volume setting, I would to point out that we had gone through a lot of different combinations before we arrive at this final volume setting.  John's comment is 100% valid, but on the other hand, the same volume setting were applicable  concurrently to speaker setup. We can indeed solve the problem by expanding the first volume position to 2 or 3 slots, leaving more room for the most sensitivity headphones, but then we won't have enough volume control on the top to explore speaker setups.  

We used AKG K812 as the reference for sensitive headphones during HA-300 development stage, it works fine for most but not all users/music genre in our initial test.  The K812 is my personal unit and it is also a mod set.  I used Neotech Rectangular OCC to mod the K812 into a double entry XLR4 balanced headphone.   I picked this cable because it is flat/slim instead of circular shape, so I can open the headphone cup, install the cable, and put the cup back without drilling any hole.  
 

From circuit design topology of HA-300, I don't know the correct description so shall we call it "Balanced Driven" tentatively?   It is different from the fully balanced designed which operated in fully differentiate amplification from input to output.  It is not a Single End Amplifier with XLR output connectors attached because the rated output of  6.35mm phone jack and XLR-4 should be largely the same, if not identical.    However, the output of 6.35mm phone jack and XLR4 are completely different  and non-correlated (don't ask me why, I can't understand that even I consulted our Engineer specifically ).   The tube amplification stages (6SN7 and 300B) of HA-300 remain Single-ended, but the final output stage of HA-300 is the dual output transformers and they are running in balanced configuration - it is fairly straightforward to create the inverted phase in a transformer.

If someone can provide an accurate description of this circuit topology, please give me a hand.  While we design HA-300 based on our own know-how and experience with tube amplifier, I suppose we are not the first amp. using this topology in headphone application.


----------



## ken6217

I have the Meze Empyrean headphones which weren’t part of the review. I can say that these sound absolutely stunning with the HA-300.


----------



## project86

Andy - thanks for the background info on volume stuff, totally makes sense. Balancing between headphone out and speaker out is surely a difficult task. Btw your K812 solution is clever, I love that it doesn't require drilling holes.... mine required a lot more work and the end result probably isn't any better than what you did. Clever!

As far as the output topology, that sounds vaguely similar to some of the newer Luxman amps like the P-750u. They use a bridge tied load (BTL) for the XLR4 output, while the 6.35mm output uses a dual paralleled design. This results in different power delivery and slightly different sound from each jack, though nothing drastic. I believe the Auralic Taurus mkII was configured similarly as well, if I recall correctly. But HA-300 is better than either of those amps by a large margin (Luxman is expensive but I'm not really sold on their house sound, too syrupy).

Ken - you are like the 5th person I know who says HA-300 and Empyrean is an amazing combo. That's my one disappointment, that I didn't get to hear them together.


----------



## ken6217

project86 said:


> - Ken - you are like the 5th person I know who says HA-300 and Empyrean is an amazing combo. That's my one disappointment, that I didn't get to hear them together.



 I have to thank Peter for that recommendation. He had heard the combo at a show and told me how great they were together.


----------



## ken6217

Last night I was listening to my amplifier and we had a storm and I lost my power and so obviously the amp turned off. I then immediately push the off button and pull the plug out of the outlet in case the power came right back on. I was curious if having the amp turned off by the power plug is the same has turning off using the switch. I’m just curious if any any damage can be done to the amp or tubes by the power going off losing power to the house


----------



## Andykong (Jul 19, 2019)

ken6217 said:


> Last night I was listening to my amplifier and we had a storm and I lost my power and so obviously the amp turned off. I then immediately push the off button and pull the plug out of the outlet in case the power came right back on. I was curious if having the amp turned off by the power plug is the same has turning off using the switch. I’m just curious if any any damage can be done to the amp or tubes by the power going off losing power to the house



It doesn't matter.  You can power off the amplifier using the ON/Off switch in the front panel. That will work better then unplug the power connection or turn off the power connection on your powerbar directly.

On the other hand, power surge from thunder/lighting is more risky then sudden power lost in lighting storm. If you live in area where thunderstorm is common, make sure you have a decent surge protector in the power supply of your sound system


----------



## Andykong

project86 said:


> Andy - thanks for the background info on volume stuff, totally makes sense. Balancing between headphone out and speaker out is surely a difficult task. Btw your K812 solution is clever, I love that it doesn't require drilling holes.... mine required a lot more work and the end result probably isn't any better than what you did. Clever!
> 
> As far as the output topology, that sounds vaguely similar to some of the newer Luxman amps like the P-750u. They use a bridge tied load (BTL) for the XLR4 output, while the 6.35mm output uses a dual paralleled design. This results in different power delivery and slightly different sound from each jack, though nothing drastic. I believe the Auralic Taurus mkII was configured similarly as well, if I recall correctly. But HA-300 is better than either of those amps by a large margin (Luxman is expensive but I'm not really sold on their house sound, too syrupy).
> 
> Ken - you are like the 5th person I know who says HA-300 and Empyrean is an amazing combo. That's my one disappointment, that I didn't get to hear them together.



I did try your method because it looks better, but I gave up after I investigated the path seriously.  I want to make sure the headphone cable remain the same length on both earcup, and unless I use very thin internal cable, otherwise I'll have a hard time to find space for the extra cables of the right earcup.

BTL is equivalent to dual mono, so the Luxman is not balanced driven, the signal is single-ended by nature, just better current and control due to dual mono design?  Besides, HA-300 can maintain very similar sound signature between the 6.35mm and XLR4 output.


----------



## silversurfer616

Had a chance to listen to this amp at the HighEnd in Munich and I was seriously impressed. Various top headphones were available and they all sounded spectacular( although Empyrean is not my taste)but best were the people there. After mentioning that I came all the way from NZ I was treated like royalty...it really felt like a community of friends sharing the same hobby. If I wouldn‘t be focusing on my Stax rig right now, I would get this amp...and the music player.


----------



## ken6217

A question about the ECC32 tubes. I know these tubes are compatible with the HA-300. I just purchased a pair, and waiting to receive it. 

I received an email from the person that I purchased them from and said the following: 

“Are you going to put these ECC32 in an amp that normally uses 6SN7 tubes. They will go straight in, but have a voltage rating of 300V. 6SN7 has a rating of 450V. If the volts are fine they sound superb. Most amps run the 6SN7s under 300V so it will most likely be fine.”

Can someone explain this to me, and will my amp be able to take advantage of any potential benefits of these tubes?

Thanks.


----------



## Ake_Y (Jul 28, 2019)

I bought HA-300 a couple weeks ago, but just have time to set up this afternoon. This amp is so heavy. Thank you all for your suggestions. 

After listening for an hour, it improves textures and bass impact from internal amp of Audio-GD R-28.

My next target should be DAC and power conditioner. Any recommend for DAC would be welcomed. Still decide between R2R and Dual ES9038PRO.


----------



## ken6217

Ake_Y said:


> I bought HA-300 a couple weeks ago, but just have time to set up this afternoon. This amp is so heavy. Thank you all for your suggestions. My next target should be DAC and power conditioner. Any recommend for DAC would be welcomed. Still decide between R2R and Dual ES9038PRO.



It depends on what you like. I’m not a fan of Sabre chips. I do have an R2R DAC. Get something that you can listen to and return if you don’t like, if that’s possible. 

Don’t get anything yet until the amp and tubes are broken in otherwise you won’t know what’s what. 

If you are using a stock power cord, put the money into an aftermarket power cord instead of a power conditioner.


----------



## project86 (Jul 28, 2019)

ken6217 said:


> A question about the ECC32 tubes. I know these tubes are compatible with the HA-300. I just purchased a pair, and waiting to receive it.
> 
> I received an email from the person that I purchased them from and said the following:
> 
> ...



We'd need Cayin to tell us if their design exceeds that 300V limit or not. As the person told you, it's not all that common, but also not totally unheard of to go higher... and unless Cayin tells you for sure, you'd be potentially sacrificing the new tubes just to test it out.





Ake_Y said:


> I bought HA-300 a couple weeks ago, but just have time to set up this afternoon. This amp is so heavy. Thank you all for your suggestions. My next target should be DAC and power conditioner. Any recommend for DAC would be welcomed. Still decide between R2R and Dual ES9038PRO.



I loved the HA-300 with iFi Pro iDSD (4x PCM1793), Resonessence Mirus Pro Signature (2x ES9028Pro), Wyred4Sound Anniversary DAC (single ES9038Pro), Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 mkII (2x UltraAnalog 20400A R2R), and Airist R2R (discrete R2R). They all sounded unique in their own ways, regardless of ESS or TI or R2R etc. So I wouldn't get caught up in that one aspect alone, but rather find something that fits your needs for sonics, budget, features, looks, etc, no matter what type of chip it uses.


----------



## ken6217

project86 said:


> We'd need Cayin to tell us if their design exceeds that 300V limit or not. As the person told you, it's not all that common, but also not totally unheard of to go higher... and unless Cayin tells you for sure, you'd be potentially sacrificing the new tubes just to test it out.



John,  what did you mean about sacrificing the tubes? I do know that I can use ECC 32 tubes with this amp as Andy confirmed that, and it says so in the manual. I was just wondering if the amp can take advantage of these tubes (whatever that means)?


----------



## Ake_Y

ken6217 said:


> It depends on what you like. I’m not a fan of Sabre chips. I do have an R2R DAC. Get something that you can listen to and return if you don’t like, if that’s possible.
> 
> Don’t get anything yet until the amp and tubes are broken in otherwise you won’t know what’s what.
> 
> If you are using a stock power cord, put the money into an aftermarket power cord instead of a power conditioner.



It is sad that it's quite impossible to return stuff in my country if we don't like it. After buying HA-300, I may have enough budget to buy power cords and a small power conditioner ( like AQ Niagara 1000/1200 ) at the end of this year. I'm not in hurry to buy DAC ( probably next year ) since it's seems that DAC technology changes quite quickly ( IMHO ) . Also waiting for amp and tubes to be broken in per your suggestion is a great idea. It might have good synergy with my R-28 after stable. If you have preferred power cord, please recommend. Thank you.


----------



## westyjeff

ken6217 said:


> John, what did you mean about sacrificing the tubes? I do know that I can use ECC 32 tubes with this amp as Andy confirmed that, and it says so in the manual. I was just wondering if the amp can take advantage of these tubes (whatever that means)?



I have not tried these tubes, I saw the post were @Andykong confirmed the use, try them and let us know!



Ake_Y said:


> My next target should be DAC and power conditioner. Any recommend for DAC would be welcomed. Still decide between R2R and Dual ES9038PRO.



I have the RME ADI 2 DAC with the HA 300 and like it very much, I have also tried the Geshelli ENOG2 Pro with it also, is sounded good but prefer the RME.


----------



## westyjeff

I have a Massdrop Arist R2R dac comming in September, I am looking forward to seeing how this tech changes the sound characteristics of the HA 300 and the THX 789.


----------



## ken6217

Ake_Y said:


> It is sad that it's quite impossible to return stuff in my country if we don't like it. After buying HA-300, I may have enough budget to buy power cords and a small power conditioner ( like AQ Niagara 1000/1200 ) at the end of this year. I'm not in hurry to buy DAC ( probably next year ) since it's seems that DAC technology changes quite quickly ( IMHO ) . Also waiting for amp and tubes to be broken in per your suggestion is a great idea. It might have good synergy with my R-28 after stable. If you have preferred power cord, please recommend. Thank you.



 I’m sure there are a lot of really good power cords out there. I like Shunyata.  Definitely buy used if you can. It’s a lot cheaper than new and  what could the previous owner have done to it to make it not still being great condition?  

BTW,  you may find out they love how your system sounds with the existing DAC that you have now and with your new amp.  I have bought and sold a lot of equipment over the years and I think that this amp might’ve been a bigger upgrade in sound then when I switched DAC’s.


----------



## project86 (Jul 28, 2019)

The guy is telling you 6SN7 is rated at 450v, while ECC32 is only rated to 300v. So it stands to reason that there is a risk there - if HA-300 runs more than 300v to the 6SN7, that could potentially damage the tubes if you put an ECC32 in there. Make sense? It's not a problem for the higher-rated 6SN7 to handle, but an ECC32 isn't made for those voltages.

This is only theoretical, and it is very possible that Cayin runs below 300v which would make the ECC32 totally fine.

EDIT if Andy told you ECC32 works, then it's pretty much confirmed to be not dangerous.


----------



## ken6217

project86 said:


> The guy is telling you 6SN7 is rated at 450v, while ECC32 is only rated to 300v. So it stands to reason that there is a risk there - if HA-300 runs more than 300v to the 6SN7, that could potentially damage the tubes if you put an ECC32 in there. Make sense? It's not a problem for the higher-rated 6SN7 to handle, but an ECC32 isn't made for those voltages.
> 
> This is only theoretical, and it is very possible that Cayin runs below 300v which would make the ECC32 totally fine.
> 
> EDIT if Andy told you ECC32 works, then it's pretty much confirmed to be not dangerous.




The tube will be fine as well as the amp. Not Only did it and he say it was OK, but the manual does as well. I thought maybe he was trying to say that with the different voltage that maybe I won’t hear the advantage of these Mullard tubes. 

The reason why I was thinking in these terms was that when I was looking at different 300 
B tubes I read that EML has a 300B XL tube that runs at a higher voltage and a supposedly sounds very good, but if the amp didn’t support it it would be a waste of money.


----------



## Ake_Y (Jul 30, 2019)

I have another question regarding to burn-in. Normally, I burn-in my R-28 overnight with Spotify/Tidal. Since tubes degrade over time, while they are operating, I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to burn-in HA-300 like before. Please advise how to burn-in it properly. Thanks.​


----------



## Khronos

Is it possible to use this beast as a pre-amp for speakers?


----------



## GuyForkes

Khronos said:


> Is it possible to use this beast as a pre-amp for speakers?



Don't think so, it doesn't have line-level outputs


----------



## iceanddice

Khronos said:


> Is it possible to use this beast as a pre-amp for speakers?



nope... it only has speaker taps and balanced and SE headphone outs... Cayin actually labels it as an integrated amp in itself.


----------



## Khronos

GuyForkes said:


> Don't think so, it doesn't have line-level outputs





iceanddice said:


> nope... it only has speaker taps and balanced and SE headphone outs... Cayin actually labels it as an integrated amp in itself.



OK, thank you very much for your help!


----------



## Ake_Y (Aug 2, 2019)

@project86 I searched for Sony MDR-Z1R impression on this topic and found that you mentioned about its background hiss. I went back to your full review, but did not find comments about Z1R. Could you please provide comments on Z1R? Thanks.


----------



## project86

Sorry, too many things to cover so I guess I left that one out. 

My thoughts on the MDR-Z1R - it's got obvious colorations, but I enjoy them so I don't mind. It doesn't shoot for linear, neutral response, and I'm perfectly fine with that. The HA-300 drives it quite well and really controls the big Sony driver. 

*It doesn't accentuate the peaks which bother some people, and in fact makes the whole thing feel slightly smoother, more refined and even handed but without losing that character which I love. 

*Treble detail is excellent. These are very resolving headphones with the right chain behind them.

*There's a focus on the lush, beautiful midrange Z1R brings to the table, as well as massive soundstage the likes of which I haven't heard from a sealed can since the classic Sony MDR-R10. 

*Bass is superb, well controlled and obviously north of neutral. I love it, but people who think it is overdone should know that the HA-300 doesn't mitigate the impact. They really kick.

*Background is not silent. There's a bit of a hiss, much like you'd hear with sensitive IEMs and powerful DAPs or portable amps - hopefully that means something to you. It isn't crazy loud, but definitely easy to hear during quiet passages. This is one of those things that either bugs you so much you can't stand it, or fades away after a while and you don't really notice. Kind of like vinyl playback with ticks and pops etc. I grew to ignore it over time but I would prefer to have it silent.


Sorry that's about as much as I can say on the topic. Z1R was very enjoyable, but not quite on the top of my list when I think of HA-300 headphone pairings. Obviously tube rolling will change this - I'm just talking stock tubes.


----------



## Trickness (Aug 16, 2019)

Ake_Y said:


> It is sad that it's quite impossible to return stuff in my country if we don't like it. After buying HA-300, I may have enough budget to buy power cords and a small power conditioner ( like AQ Niagara 1000/1200 ) at the end of this year. I'm not in hurry to buy DAC ( probably next year ) since it's seems that DAC technology changes quite quickly ( IMHO ) . Also waiting for amp and tubes to be broken in per your suggestion is a great idea. It might have good synergy with my R-28 after stable. If you have preferred power cord, please recommend. Thank you.



Also recommend Shunyata as others here have. Very musical power treatment, doesn’t lean up the sound. Their NR cables are really spectacular at cleaning up AC line noise and they just recently introduced a Venom NR model which is very affordable compared to other power cables at that performance level. I use Shunyata with my DNA Stratus and my Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated.


----------



## project86

For AC cables, I'm quite fond of the Audio Art power1 ePlus. I started with one and liked it so much I now use them for all components in my rig. 

I feel that you really get a lot of bang for your buck when using some of the smaller companies like Audio Art. Nothing against Audioquest, Nordost, or Kimber etc but I always feel like I am paying part of their marketing expenses...


----------



## dadracer2

project86 said:


> For AC cables, I'm quite fond of the Audio Art power1 ePlus. I started with one and liked it so much I now use them for all components in my rig.
> 
> I feel that you really get a lot of bang for your buck when using some of the smaller companies like Audio Art. Nothing against Audioquest, Nordost, or Kimber etc but I always feel like I am paying part of their marketing expenses...


----------



## dadracer2

If you are looking for great value for money on AC power cables then I'd recommend Titan Audio. They have a wide range and prices start at around $120. I have their basic level distribution block and a few of their power cables and they are really well made with no bus bars but direct wiring and excellent connectors. It will leave you with more money for a new DAC. I have heard good things about the new Cayin DAC, but I am staying with what I have as it is a good fit with my streamer. I really would like Cayin to build a new phono amp if possible!!!


----------



## ken6217

project86 said:


> I feel that you really get a lot of bang for your buck when using some of the smaller companies like Audio Art. Nothing against Audioquest, Nordost, or Kimber etc but I always feel like I am paying part of their marketing expenses...



I'm sure we are, but that doesn't mean that they are not better sounding. No one is going to pay $1000, $2000, etc or so for a power cord if they don't think it's improving their system dramatically. 

If it is worth it, that's up to the individual making that decision.


----------



## project86

Well yeah, cables are very highly subjective and personal. I'm just stating my experience with "smaller" companies in general. That said, I've owned my share of Shunyata, AQ, Nordost, MIT, etc, and they all did good things in their own ways. Value is highly relative and debatable anyway. 

I guess I should say, for _my _particular system I like what the Audio Art stuff does compared to most others.


----------



## Trickness

Wondering if any long term owners of the HA-300 can speak to the amp's reliability - they've been out for a couple of years now. I have a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP integrated amp which I believe is built in the same factory, which has been bulletproof for me for 2 years of very heavy use, just curious if there's anyone out there who's REALLY used their HA-300 for serious hours and can share their experiences - thanks!


----------



## project86

That's a good question - I'd like to hear input as well. 

For what it's worth, I've been using the Cayin HA-1Amk2 for years now without issue, and the original version of that was known to be quite reliable (I've seen some examples still going strong after a decade+ of use). But I realize the HA300 is a whole different animal.


----------



## westyjeff

project86 said:


> That's a good question - I'd like to hear input as well.
> 
> For what it's worth, I've been using the Cayin HA-1Amk2 for years now without issue, and the original version of that was known to be quite reliable (I've seen some examples still going strong after a decade+ of use). But I realize the HA300 is a whole different animal.



The one I have was originally purchased in May 2018 by Level5, I received it in January 2019, I use it almost daily and it has not missed a beat!!!


----------



## ken6217

Well, this isn’t long term, but I have at least 500 hours on mine and it works flawless and sounds amazing. Also it responds so well to tube rolling. 

I have had solid state my entire life, and I would never go back.


----------



## iceanddice

Trickness said:


> Wondering if any long term owners of the HA-300 can speak to the amp's reliability - they've been out for a couple of years now. I have a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP integrated amp which I believe is built in the same factory, which has been bulletproof for me for 2 years of very heavy use, just curious if there's anyone out there who's REALLY used their HA-300 for serious hours and can share their experiences - thanks!



Have had one since April 2018. No problems here


----------



## westyjeff (Aug 19, 2019)

What tubes has everyone been using? I like the Black treasure tubes, both 6SN7 and 300b as well as the PSvane TII tubes, both 6SN7 and 300b. I just bought the Shuguang WE6SN7Plus, we'll see how those sound.

http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/sto...lack-plate-curvy-vacuum-tubes-pair-or-single/


----------



## ken6217

For Driver tubes, NOS Tung Sold 6SN7GT black glass round plate, and also Brimar CV181. 

KR Audio Come Bottle 300B tubes.


----------



## Trickness

Thanks all! I bought a DNA Stratus here a while back, was just about to buy an HA-300 when it came up in the buy sell forum. I'm getting out of vinyl and thinking of using the proceeds of my turntable & pre-amp sale to get an HA-300 to replace it. Hi-res with a good DAC through a really good tube amp for me is the most enjoyable way to listen to music, surprisingly moreso than vinyl.


----------



## astrostar59

I am curious about the HA-300. Does it have enough drive for the 1266 Abyss? How does it sound on the HP? I saw a post from Cayin saying it was ok not special on the Abyss. 

Any feedback on this combo would be most useful.


----------



## ken6217

I can only speak for the Headphones that I have. Meze Empyrean. Best combo I’ve ever owned.


----------



## GuyForkes

astrostar59 said:


> I am curious about the HA-300. Does it have enough drive for the 1266 Abyss? How does it sound on the HP? I saw a post from Cayin saying it was ok not special on the Abyss.
> 
> Any feedback on this combo would be most useful.



I think what Andy meant was that the Susvara sounded better than the Abyss with the HA-300. I echo that sentiment having driven both headphones with the HA-300. I felt that images were less sharp/defined on the HA-300 compared to top-tier SS amps. This is not an issue for Susvara but the Abyss 1266 does not image as well. IMO, an SS amp plays to the strengths and weaknesses of the Abyss 1266 better. Switching to the Pass XA25 was a noticeable improvement for the Abyss 1266.


----------



## ken6217

I tried a pair of unused NOS Mullard ECC32 tubes tonight, and the sound seems to have some distortion. I know the tubes need breaking in but I hadn't heard this type of sound on new tubes before. Any ideas.


----------



## westyjeff

I have not tried ECC32 tubes, are they a direct replacement? I think I remember seeing that these could be used but mayby not?


----------



## DrummerLeo

Trickness said:


> Wondering if any long term owners of the HA-300 can speak to the amp's reliability - they've been out for a couple of years now. I have a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP integrated amp which I believe is built in the same factory, which has been bulletproof for me for 2 years of very heavy use, just curious if there's anyone out there who's REALLY used their HA-300 for serious hours and can share their experiences - thanks!


Mine is about a year now, daily use, 500+ hours, sounds better and better. 
I never use a headphone amp longer than a year.I usually went to try some different sounds at this point. But it seems I'm going to settle down with HA300 for a long time.


----------



## DrummerLeo

astrostar59 said:


> I am curious about the HA-300. Does it have enough drive for the 1266 Abyss? How does it sound on the HP? I saw a post from Cayin saying it was ok not special on the Abyss.
> 
> Any feedback on this combo would be most useful.


GuyForkes is pretty much spot on. Abyss is a very unique headphones, I do find it suits more with SS. But HA300 with some tubes can make it a good amp with 1266. I tried JJ 300b, and Full music 300b/q can make 1266 sound quite beautiful. KR300B(newer version) on the other hand is not that good. So I think tubes with smoother treble(300bq) or darker signature ( JJ)  can pretty much adjust 1266 more to my taste.


----------



## DrummerLeo

ken6217 said:


> I tried a pair of unused NOS Mullard ECC32 tubes tonight, and the sound seems to have some distortion. I know the tubes need breaking in but I hadn't heard this type of sound on new tubes before. Any ideas.


I tried a pair of NOS GE GTA.  In the first few hours, they did sound rough, but after about 10 hours, they are just fine. I did switch back to my old tubes and another pair of NOS GTA to eliminate bias.


----------



## wasupdog

I thought it was a bad match with the Abyss.  I don't know the technicalities of how to describe it in terms of the impedance/voltage/current mismatch between the amp and headphones but it's definitely not the ideal match for Abyss.  

The amp was excellent with Utopias but it does hum a little since the Utopias are sensitive.  It transformed the HD800S.  All of the HD800/HD800S owners out there that have never heard it on a high end tube amp don't know what it's capable of.  This was my favorite match with the HA-300.  There was lack of nothing with this pairing and it had good bass too.  

I actually preferred the stock tubes.  The aftermarket assortment I tried was too smooth sounding for me.


----------



## astrostar59

Thanks guys, looks like the HA-300 won't work in our system then.

Anyone compared / heard the Woo WA5 LE on the Abyss? The review on Part Time Audiophile was positive about the Abyss pairing on that amp:
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/09/27/review-woo-audio-wa5le-v2-vacuum-tube-headphone-amplifier/

Apologies going off topic, I can ask this on the Abyss forum as well.


----------



## DrummerLeo

astrostar59 said:


> Thanks guys, looks like the HA-300 won't work in our system then.
> 
> Anyone compared / heard the Woo WA5 LE on the Abyss? The review on Part Time Audiophile was positive about the Abyss pairing on that amp:
> https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/09/27/review-woo-audio-wa5le-v2-vacuum-tube-headphone-amplifier/
> ...


I would say both are ok, soso level... I actually came from WA5...


----------



## ken6217

DrummerLeo said:


> I tried a pair of NOS GE GTA.  In the first few hours, they did sound rough, but after about 10 hours, they are just fine. I did switch back to my old tubes and another pair of NOS GTA to eliminate bias.



 Thanks for the reply. What did you mean about eliminating bias?


----------



## DrummerLeo

ken6217 said:


> Thanks for the reply. What did you mean about eliminating bias?


brain effects? I mean I was trying to make sure, the distortion is gone, in stead of "I feel it is gone".


----------



## astrostar59

How is the volume position if driving the Abyss, or Susvara? I am confused, but it seems the HA-300 outputs about 2W at 50 ohms, so well below it's rated 8W on the speaker 8 ohm taps.

Thus technically for headphones, we have a 3W head amp or lower? Or am I missing something?


----------



## Fatdoi

astrostar59 said:


> How is the volume position if driving the Abyss, or Susvara? I am confused, but it seems the HA-300 outputs about 2W at 50 ohms, so well below it's rated 8W on the speaker 8 ohm taps.
> 
> Thus technically for headphones, we have a 3W head amp or lower? Or am I missing something?


Tube works differently than SS.... When SS has less power with higher ohm, tubes may have greater output at high ohm... Lots of tubes active in 200, 300ohm environment hence they're great for high impedance HP but hit/miss for planars...


----------



## GuyForkes

astrostar59 said:


> How is the volume position if driving the Abyss, or Susvara? I am confused, but it seems the HA-300 outputs about 2W at 50 ohms, so well below it's rated 8W on the speaker 8 ohm taps.
> 
> Thus technically for headphones, we have a 3W head amp or lower? Or am I missing something?



I set the volume pot at 2 o'clock for Susvara and it's as loud as I ever needed to go. I set it at 12-1 o'clock for Abyss. I dont think the stated specs on the product page are telling the whole story here.


----------



## ken6217

Playing loud, and driving "effectively" are not the same thing. The amp very well may be driving them to their potential, but I just wanted to point out the distinction.


----------



## LCMusicLover

astrostar59 said:


> How is the volume position if driving the Abyss, or Susvara? I am confused, but it seems the HA-300 outputs about 2W at 50 ohms, so well below it's rated 8W on the speaker 8 ohm taps.
> 
> Thus technically for headphones, we have a 3W head amp or lower? Or am I missing something?


Not what I'm getting.

V = √(P*R) = √(2 * 50) = √100 = 10 V

So 2 Watts into a 50 Ohm load requires 10 Volts

P = V^2 / R = 10^2 / 8 = 100 / 8 = 12.5 W

and 10 Volts into 8 Ohms would provide 12.5 Watts

Note that the 10V output shown above is actually higher than the voltage for the rated 8W @ 8Ω which comes out as 8V.  And it implies that the amp could provide 1.25 amps of current, while the 8W @ 8Ω requires 1 amp output, and the 2W @ 50Ω requires only 1/5 amp.  At some point, as resistance increases, current limitations reduce possible power output (the whole 'ideal amp vs real-world amp' thing).


----------



## westyjeff

I really, really like this amp, makes lower priced headphones sound amazing. My AKG K7XX and Elex have been my favorite for the last couple of weeks. HD 800s are going to be here this weekend if everything works out and I am excited to see if the hype is real for this match up. I wanted my 100th post to be on this thread!!!


----------



## ken6217

If anyone is interested, I am selling a pair of Sophia Electric Royal Princess 300B matched pair tubes. Sound great. About 50 hours on them. Three months old.


----------



## ls13coco

I just read through the whole thread and I am wondering - have we figured out why SE output has a higher maximum power output than the XLR output?

More importantly, this amp is on my shortlist of 3, the others being the Woo WA22 and WA6-SE. I am curious if anybody has experience with these amps and could share some comparative impressions.
Do note that I have a preference to planars and that the Arya and Empyrean are next on my list, with the Aeolus being the only dynamic in my consideration.

Cheers


----------



## ken6217

I have a HA-300 with the Empyrean. Absolutely fantastic pair. 

I have not had the other amps that you mentioned but have had the Woo WA-5 LE, and the HA-300 is superior sounding to me.


----------



## Ake_Y (Sep 20, 2019)

After using HA-300 for two months, I sometimes feel that the volume of left channel is slightly lower that that of right channel. I just tested with Pink Noise playlist in Spotify and found as attached images. You could see that the level of VU meter on the left is lower that that on the right. I already contacted my dealer. They recommended the initial test by swapping left/right tubes and rechecked the volume. I haven't tried that yet.

1. Please suggest how to remove / install the tube.

2. Any other advices are also welcomed. Thank you.


----------



## ken6217

No special technique. Just try to grab it by the base and pull straight up. You might have to wiggle it a little bit as you’re pulling up. I always use the gloves that it came with so I don’t put fingerprints on the glass. I don’t know if that matters or not.


----------



## LCMusicLover

Ake_Y said:


> After using HA-300 for two months, I sometimes feel that the volume of left channel is slightly lower that that of right channel. I just tested with Pink Noise playlist in Spotify and found as attached images. You could see that the level of VU meter on the left is lower that that on the right. I already contacted my dealer. They recommended the initial test by swapping left/right tubes and rechecked the volume. I haven't tried that yet.
> 
> 1. Please suggest how to remove / install the tube.
> 
> 2. Any other advices are also welcomed. Thank you.


Silly question, but...

Are you sure it's the amp?  Simple test -- swap the inputs and see if the problem stays put or moves.


----------



## Thenewguy007

ken6217 said:


> No special technique. Just try to grab it by the base and pull straight up. You might have to wiggle it a little bit as you’re pulling up. I always use the gloves that it came with so I don’t put fingerprints on the glass. I don’t know if that matters or not.



Also be sure the amplifier is turned OFF before doing this!


----------



## Ake_Y (Sep 20, 2019)

ken6217 said:


> No special technique. Just try to grab it by the base and pull straight up. You might have to wiggle it a little bit as you’re pulling up. I always use the gloves that it came with so I don’t put fingerprints on the glass. I don’t know if that matters or not.



Thank you. Since this is my first tube amp, I was not sure whether I have to twist the tube before or pull it up directly.



LCMusicLover said:


> Silly question, but...
> 
> Are you sure it's the amp?  Simple test -- swap the inputs and see if the problem stays put or moves.



Thank you for mention that. There is no silly question. I don't have other source, but I will try to swap left/right balance input cables. Initially, my R-28 ( source ) is DAC/Amp. If I drive my HP directly from it, there is no balance issue. However, it could be the output ports or the cables impact as well.



Thenewguy007 said:


> Also be sure the amplifier is turned OFF before doing this!



Thank you. Sure I will follow that.


----------



## astrostar59

Is this amp self biasing? May be that it needs bias on the tubes? It is common to find one tube lower than the other, that is why tube sellers are supposed to sell as pairs, matching. 

Don't forget the power tube and the smaller driver tubes both need to be balanced left to right.

On a similar subject, I would personally never buy a HP amp without manual balance control pot (like a volume pot but balance). It drives me nuts if one side is louder than the other on headphones. You can get away with it a bit of on speakers.


----------



## woodcans

astrostar59 said:


> On a similar subject, I would personally never buy a HP amp without manual balance control pot (like a volume pot but balance). It drives me nuts if one side is louder than the other on headphones. You can get away with it a bit of on speakers.



I have had multiple amps over the years, none having had a manual balance control pot, and have not had a balance issue. This includes currently the Cayin HA-300, ZMF Pendant, Allnic HPA-3000 GT and a Bottlehead Crack/SB. 

Ake-Y I hope you get your problem sorted, the 300 is an incredible amp.


----------



## ken6217

It does not need a balance knob, and it is self biasing


----------



## astrostar59

I need a balance knob, as my right ear is down maybe 7-10%


----------



## Bonddam

woodcans said:


> I have had multiple amps over the years, none having had a manual balance control pot, and have not had a balance issue. This includes currently the Cayin HA-300, ZMF Pendant, Allnic HPA-3000 GT and a Bottlehead Crack/SB.
> 
> Ake-Y I hope you get your problem sorted, the 300 is an incredible amp.


I just ordered the Pendant which will be my first tube amp. I emailed Zach for help but wondering if you have any guidance to offer being you have one? I'm using Verite and Eikon as the main cans for this amp. Will I be able too enjoy my planar's from this setup aswell?


----------



## ken6217

I use Meze Empyrean with my HA-300 and it is phenomenal. I understand other planars are good as well with this amp.


----------



## GuyForkes

Bonddam said:


> I just ordered the Pendant which will be my first tube amp. I emailed Zach for help but wondering if you have any guidance to offer being you have one? I'm using Verite and Eikon as the main cans for this amp. Will I be able too enjoy my planar's from this setup aswell?



The Pendant has settings for high and low impedance headphones. You should be able to use low impedence Planars with them.


----------



## Bonddam

GuyForkes said:


> The Pendant has settings for high and low impedance headphones. You should be able to use low impedence Planars with them.


Thank you for the response.


----------



## woodcans

Bonddam said:


> I just ordered the Pendant which will be my first tube amp. I emailed Zach for help but wondering if you have any guidance to offer being you have one



The ZMF cans have excellent synergy with the Pendant, you are going to love it with your Eikon & Verite. It has plenty of power and a low Z output, so will likely be excellent with your planars as well.


----------



## ken6217 (Oct 4, 2019)

Deleted


----------



## ken6217

If anyone is interested, I will be listing my HA-300 for sale this week, Mint condition with a lot of beyond excellent tubes we can discuss... NOS Tung Sol Black Glass, Round Pates, Brimar CV1988 Brown base, and KR Audio 300B Coke Bottle tubes. Also a back up quad of Rectifier tubes. Willing too work out a kick ass deal as I want to get a second motorcycle ASAP before riding season is done. PM me, and let's discuss!


----------



## westyjeff

ken6217 said:


> If anyone is interested, I will be listing my HA-300 for sale this week, Mint condition with a lot of beyond excellent tubes we can discuss... NOS Tung Sol Black Glass, Round Pates, Brimar CV1988 Brown base, and KR Audio 300B Coke Bottle tubes. Also a back up quad of Rectifier tubes. Willing too work out a kick ass deal as I want to get a second motorcycle ASAP before riding season is done. PM me, and let's discuss!



Don't do it,,good luck with your sale if you absolutely have too.


----------



## ken6217

westyjeff said:


> Don't do it,,good luck with your sale if you absolutely have too.



You’re talking to the wrong person. It’s the monkey on my back.


----------



## Trickness

ken6217 said:


> You’re talking to the wrong person. It’s the monkey on my back.



Another Ducati, perhaps?


----------



## ken6217

Trickness said:


> Another Ducati, perhaps?



Nope. Got one. I got a BMW touring bike. I've actually had this one before, but bought it again. I planned on leaving within the week for ride up through New Hampshire and Vermont from NJ. The leaves are past prime, but it's beautiful up there regardless.


----------



## ken6217

Well, the amp is sold. I have a couple of matched pairs of NOS Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plates, and Brimar CV1988 brown base. All have low hours and test strong. Also a pair of KR Audio 300B Coke Bottle tubes. For me, the best 300B tubes out there. Bass is incredible. If anyone is interested, PM me.


----------



## leilei787

Hi, does anyone know if ha300 can drive JBL 4312 sufficiently? 

thanks


----------



## dadracer2

leilei787 said:


> Hi, does anyone know if ha300 can drive JBL 4312 sufficiently?
> 
> thanks


It depends a lot on what you mean by sufficiently. The JBLs are 93db and 6 ohm is that correct? It also depends on your room size and how far away you are from the speakers. I think it will be ok as long as you don't expect room bending volume. I have KLHs which are notionally 94db in a biggish room and they are ok for most things but I'm beginning to think 97db would be more ideal so I'm considering single driver fill range speakers which also have a favourable impedance curve. I guess as always try it and see if you dealer will let you.

All else being equal it makes an astonishingly good sound on speakers.......


----------



## Andykong

Let me quote the following JBL4312 article for your reference:

https://cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.com/2011/08/review-jbl-4312a-part-i.html


> When I am by myself, I continue to listen to the 4312A. The same amp does not quite work nearly as well as the ICL 300B amp. The 300B gives a good degree of cleanliness and is just sufficient for personal listening. Last night I played a Mozart symphony, a Martinu quartet, a Kogan Beethoven, and only in Mahler's 4th did I encounter outright clipping and had to turn down the volume one notch. The 300B does not give that much bass but it does give a high quality bass, ans so the bass passages had surprising speed and depth for 8 watts. No, I did not find any of the stuff too lean.



I know this writer in person, we had a lot of heated discussion back in the good old days.  He is a trustworthy audiophile sharing his honest opinion.  I think his opinion is a good reference to HA-300 users who plan t use JBL4312 or 4312A.


----------



## Domisondo

The amp was excellent with Utopias but it does hum a little since the Utopias are sensitive.  It transformed the HD800S.  All of the HD800/HD800S owners out there that have never heard it on a high end tube amp don't know what it's capable of.  This was my favorite match with the HA-300.  There was lack of nothing with this pairing and it had good bass too. 

[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> What would be your pick between HD 800 and HD 800S if paring up with HA300 ? and would appreciate if you can elaborate the thoughts behind your choice …


----------



## dadracer2

Domisondo said:


> My preference is for the 800S as it sounds better than the 800 when used balanced. I also think it is correct that the HA300 is a fabulous partnering amp for the 800S and it is as if they were made for each other. The slight warmth of the HA300 suits the slight coolness of the 800S and the midrange and sound-staging are spectacular. Of course I have not heard every headphone and every amp although I’ve tried a lot, and it depends on your personal preferences so what my thoughts are may not coincide with yours.


----------



## Domisondo

Thanks for your shared experience. I liked they way you describe HD800S with HA300. This will temp me to borrow an 800S to audition as I consider whether to upgrade to 800S or just replace my old 800 which had problem with the right can. My preference of music large scale orchestra works and therefore I am going after sound-stage, imaging, instrument separation and details. Cheers !


----------



## dadracer2

Domisondo said:


> Thanks for your shared experience. I liked they way you describe HD800S with HA300. This will temp me to borrow an 800S to audition as I consider whether to upgrade to 800S or just replace my old 800 which had problem with the right can. My preference of music large scale orchestra works and therefore I am going after sound-stage, imaging, instrument separation and details. Cheers !


If you like the sound of the HD800 then you should like the 800S. If you are a fan of soundstage and imaging then the 800S is even better than the 800 when used balanced. I have heard a lot of planar and electrostatic headphones with a variety of amps. My preference for the 800S remains and when paired with the HA300 is only reinforced. The one combination I have heard that betters this combination is the HE1. Again though if you like the sound of the Meze Empyrean or Hi-Fi Man Susvara or Focal Utopia then this may not be the case for you ear.


----------



## ken6217

Sounds great with the Meze Empyrean


----------



## dadracer2

ken6217 said:


> Sounds great with the Meze Empyrean


The Empyreans are very good indeed but sadly I have not tried them with the HA300. I have tried them with another valve headphone amp and preferred my HD800S which I was able to compare directly. In fairness if you prefer a planar type sound the Mezes are the best I have heard or at least equal with the HiFiMan Susvara. Nonetheless I prefer what the HD800S does in terms of imaging and soundstage and extended treble so I will stick with them. I am certain other folks will have a differing view and that is right and proper...for them.


----------



## westyjeff




----------



## Andykong

A new tube headphone amplifier is round the corner. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/mys...one-amplifier-at-canjam-shanghai-2019.918779/


----------



## llamaluv

My HA-300 arrived last night.

As part of doing a "reconnaissance lap", I briefly sampled the headphones I have on hand and found the Susvara easily stood out as the most interesting pairing. Even un-burned-in and with the stock tubes, imaging on the Susvara is so very nice. Easily among the best imaging with the Susvara I've ever heard, maybe more so. Puts the Abyss Phi TC with my Pass Labs solid state speaker amp to shame in this regard. The jury's still out on questions of bass quantity and extension, but there are many other strong points with this pairing, including communicating the appeal of 300B in general.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to groking what this amp has to offer in the coming weeks. I have some EML 300Bs on the way this evening.


----------



## ken6217

llamaluv said:


> My HA-300 arrived last night.
> 
> As part of doing a "reconnaissance lap", I briefly sampled the headphones I have on hand and found the Susvara easily stood out as the most interesting pairing. Even un-burned-in and with the stock tubes, imaging on the Susvara is so very nice. Easily among the best imaging with the Susvara I've ever heard, maybe more so. Puts the Abyss Phi TC with my Pass Labs solid state speaker amp to shame in this regard. The jury's still out on questions of bass quantity and extension, but there are many other strong points with this pairing, including communicating the appeal of 300B in general.
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking forward to groking what this amp has to offer in the coming weeks. I have some EML 300Bs on the way this evening.



Nice. Try it with the Empyrean as well.


----------



## dadracer2

llamaluv said:


> My HA-300 arrived last night.
> 
> As part of doing a "reconnaissance lap", I briefly sampled the headphones I have on hand and found the Susvara easily stood out as the most interesting pairing. Even un-burned-in and with the stock tubes, imaging on the Susvara is so very nice. Easily among the best imaging with the Susvara I've ever heard, maybe more so. Puts the Abyss Phi TC with my Pass Labs solid state speaker amp to shame in this regard. The jury's still out on questions of bass quantity and extension, but there are many other strong points with this pairing, including communicating the appeal of 300B in general.
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking forward to groking what this amp has to offer in the coming weeks. I have some EML 300Bs on the way this evening.



You might want to consider rolling the 6SN7s first as a couple of folks (including Andy Kong) have suggested this will provide a bigger improvement. Anyhow just a thought! I am going to have a look at valve in the New Year and once I have got the loudspeakers finally sorted. I had been looking at the PSVane range which seem well regarded and have valves at a range of price levels. I believe they are the folks who made the new 300B valve for Audio Note which is being touted as the best in breed...


----------



## ken6217

I’ve tried a few and the Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass and round plates. Takes the amp to a new level.


----------



## Maxx134

dadracer2 said:


> You might want to consider rolling the 6SN7s first as a couple of folks (including Andy Kong) have suggested this will provide a bigger improvement


I agree, even though the output tubes upgrade was noticable, the driver tubes change is more apparent and I myself preferred some Sylvania, which made it a bit more lively.


----------



## llamaluv

dadracer2 said:


> You might want to consider rolling the 6SN7s first as a couple of folks (including Andy Kong) have suggested this will provide a bigger improvement. Anyhow just a thought! I am going to have a look at valve in the New Year and once I have got the loudspeakers finally sorted. I had been looking at the PSVane range which seem well regarded and have valves at a range of price levels. I believe they are the folks who made the new 300B valve for Audio Note which is being touted as the best in breed...





ken6217 said:


> I’ve tried a few and the Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass and round plates. Takes the amp to a new level.





Maxx134 said:


> I agree, even though the output tubes upgrade was noticable, the driver tubes change is more apparent and I myself preferred some Sylvania, which made it a bit more lively.



Thanks yep, I have these on deck:

PSVane CV181-TII
Sylvania 6SN7GT
RCA 6SN7GTB​
I'll for sure keep the Tung Sols in mind if and when I conclude that it's time to up the ante.

And for the power tubes, will be (burning in and) trying these out:

EML 300B
JJ 300B (thanks Ken!)​
I shouldn't even say this since it surely exposes me as a "bad" audiophile but rolling tubes in previous tube amps didn't make much of a difference to my ears. However, I have a feeling that will not be the case this time around.


----------



## Maxx134

ken6217 said:


> I’ve tried a few and the Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass and round plates. Takes the amp to a new level.


Those are my favorites as well..
I actually prefer to use the coke-bottle type equivalents(with adapter) with any amps using 6sn7..


----------



## ken6217

llamaluv said:


> Thanks yep, I have these on deck:
> 
> PSVane CV181-TII
> Sylvania 6SN7GT
> ...



Guaranteed.


----------



## Maxx134

ken6217 said:


> Guaranteed.


I bet he will like them in the exact order he listed them.(6sn7 types)


----------



## llamaluv

Maxx134 said:


> I bet he will like them in the exact order he listed them.(6sn7 types)


Wait, in ascending or descending order?


----------



## ken6217

llamaluv said:


> Wait, in ascending or descending order?



does it matter? You’re in the headphone hobby. There’s no logic to anything. Buy them all.


----------



## llamaluv

ken6217 said:


> does it matter? You’re in the headphone hobby. There’s no logic to anything. Buy them all.


Yea, true


----------



## llamaluv (Dec 6, 2019)

llamaluv said:


> As part of doing a "reconnaissance lap", I briefly sampled the headphones I have on hand and found the Susvara easily stood out as the most interesting pairing.



Okay, so I lied: I actually skipped trying the *Abyss Phi TC *previously, having read some slightly tepid reports on that combination, so wanted to wait until I got some better tubes and/or let things burn in a little first before trying them so as to avoid getting an overly negative first impression.

I swapped out the stock tubes for new (non-burned-in) EML 300B's and Sylvania Baldwin 6SN7GTB's c. 1950 (with low hours still, thanks again, Ken) and can easily say that the synergy is there -- this headphone pairing should work out. Frequency extension is there in full in both directions and it's as big and dynamic and lively as it should be. On the low impedance setting, it sounds extra expressive and loose (as in reactive), while on medium, it's more controlled, somehow.

_Edit: _Also worth noting is that there's an added midrange emphasis. I'm guessing for now that it's the nature of this pairing rather than the particularities of these (un-burnt-in) tubes. In contrast, I get a slight recession in the lower-to-middle-mids with my speaker amp.

As an aside, I had first tried out some well-burnt-in PSVane CV181 TII's for the driver tubes and found the combination to be well resolving but too bright.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> Okay, so I lied: I actually skipped trying the *Abyss Phi TC *previously, having read some slightly tepid reports on that combination, so wanted to wait until I got some better tubes and/or let things burn in a little first before trying them so as to avoid getting an overly negative first impression.
> 
> I swapped out the stock tubes for new (non-burned-in) EML 300B's and Sylvania Baldwin 6SN7GTB's c. 1950 (with low hours still, thanks again, Ken) and can easily say that the synergy is there -- this headphone pairing should work out. Frequency extension is there in full in both directions and it's as big and dynamic and lively as it should be. On the low impedance setting, it sounds extra expressive and loose (as in reactive), while on medium, it's more controlled, somehow.
> 
> ...



The slightly tepid reports probably originated from me.  I shouldn't have said that as a brand rep. but the audiophile blood inside me somehow sold me out.

I think the Abyss AB-1266 + HA-300 is more a synergy issue between 300B power tube and the house sound of 1266, and the latest Phi TC just put things slightly more difficult then the previous version.  To me, the glorious part of 300B power tube is intimating mid-range, outstanding microdynamic, extremely rich harmonic and holographic presentation.  The headphone implementation of 300B placed these beautiful tonal characteristic  in full-scale dynamic and FR extension context, something uneasy to obtain from speaker application.  Unfortunately, I still find the 300B  lacking if you are after rumbling bass and wide soundstage in a magnificent presentation.  

But I haven't heard the EML 300B (I assume you have the XLS version) which is said to be the strongest 300B tube, maybe this can contribute to the synergy issue and help HA-300 and Aybss Phi TC matching.  So maybe keeping the Sylvania Baldwin 6SN7GTB as-is, AB compare the stock 300B vs EML 300L with your Abyss Phi TC will clarify my hopothesis.


----------



## llamaluv (Dec 20, 2019)

I think the Abyss Phi TC offers an important improvement in the mids over its predecessor, which might account for some of the difference. I'm running the non-XLS version of the EML 300Bs...

Here are some updated headphone pairing impressions:

After having listened to the HA-300 exclusively for a few weeks, I'm now in the phase where I'm switching back and forth somewhat between the HA-300 and my other amps to compare, and can say I prefer the *Phi TC *with the HA-300 over my Pass Labs X150.8 speaker amp, quite handily. For me, the "musicality" and fuller mids of the HA-300 wins, and it's more tonally balanced in general. Also, I'd previously commented on how I heard the TC as being a little extra-forward in the mids on the HA-300, but after the power tubes burned in, I no longer think that's the case (I kind of regret now that -- in my enthusiasm -- I started posting impressions while the amp and tubes were still close to brand-new :/ ).

For the *Susvara*, however, the X150.8 wins for being faster, more expansive-sounding, and having deeper bass extension. Though the HA-300 still sounds very good with the Susvara and brings something slightly different -- as I'd mentioned earlier, and especially with acoustic music -- so I anticipate doing a good part of my listening with the it on the HA-300 into the future...

A couple other headphones to mention:

The *Denon D9200 *sounds fantastic. I think I was vaguely not expecting much for this pairing for some reason, but what the HA-300 brings to the party is probably most evident with this headphone over the others I've tried. Most of all, it opens it up a lot. This headphone is criminally overlooked (IMO), and really sings when paired well. I prefer the HA-300 over the DAVE headphone-out, and it promotes the D9200 to being on the same playing field as the rest of my headphones in terms of preference (despite it being a closed-back, which I normally only fall back to for purposes of sound isolation).

Same goes for the *Empyrean *(which I'd been borrowing for a couple weeks), as @ken6217 has mentioned. There's a mid-range bloom and very nice soundstage expansion which cuts through the Empyrean veil and slightly closed-back-like sound. I prefer it on the HA-300 to the DAVE headphone-out as well.

Last up is the *Utopia*, which sounds very good, but I have to do more listening to have much more useful to say on it. Except that it more than the others sounds the most like itself (hopefully that makes sense... to someone ).


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> I think the Abyss Phi TC offers an important improvement in the mids over its predecessor, which might account for some of the difference. I'm running the non-XLS version of the EML 300Bs...
> 
> Here are some updated headphone pairing impressions:
> 
> ...




When we launch the HA-300 at Canjam New York 2018, we have the Susvara, Kennerton Thror (debut), Empyrean (debut) and Utopia on the same audition bench and the Utopia with DanaCable Lazuli Reference cable stands out as the most impression setup according to a lot of visitors, Dave Hanson described this combo as "perfect synergy" and "one of those listening sessions I know will stick with me for a long time".  I bought a set of Lazuli Reference cable from Dana at the end of the show, unfortunately I don't have the Utopia after that.  So  my advice is, get a good copper headphone cable for your HA-300/Utopia combo, it will shine.


----------



## llamaluv

I used to own the Lazuli Reference for the Utopia, and liked it just fine. Since then I've gone in the opposite direction with a Wireworld Nano Eclipse Platinum.


----------



## Jon L

llamaluv said:


> I used to own the Lazuli Reference for the Utopia, and liked it just fine. Since then I've gone in the opposite direction with a Wireworld Nano Eclipse Platinum.



Hmm.. the Wireworld is small AWG pure silver (27 AWG).  It is not too lean in tone?


----------



## llamaluv (Dec 21, 2019)

Jon L said:


> Hmm.. the Wireworld is small AWG pure silver (27 AWG).  It is not too lean in tone?



I'd always subscribed to the the-thicker-the-better school of thought and made my cable choices accordingly, but this was the cable that disabused me of that notion as one which is overly simplistic.

It's not thin with the Utopia with any good upstream components (and definitely not so on something like a 300B tube amp). It's very dynamic and resolving, fast and deep in the bass. Brighter than the Danacable house sound for sure, though neutral in absolute terms (IMO). It's my favorite cable on the Utopia out of about half a dozen I've owned (including the Lazuli Ref), though everyone's preferences differ and I usually prefer silver to copper.

As an aside, when used with an adapter on the Abyss Phi TC, I find it to be less sucked-out in the lower-mids compared to the Abyss stock cable.


----------



## Strayngs

Hi guys. I Am very interested in this amp. I used to own a ampsandsound SE84. And miss it sooo much. I sold it when I purchased my Audeze LCD4. Has anyone tried a LCD4 with this amp? I am wanting to get that tube sound again as my Wells Audio Milo is good....but I miss my tubes.

Second question. Does that black protective cover over the tubes that I have seen in some of the pictures come with the amp? Thanks guys.


----------



## ken6217

I can only answer one of your questions. The protective cover does come with the amp.


----------



## Jon L

llamaluv said:


> It's my favorite cable on the Utopia...
> As an aside, when used with an adapter on the Abyss Phi TC, I find it to be less sucked-out in the lower-mids compared to the Abyss stock cable.


But is it your favorite cable on the Abyss..?
I think I am just going to make my own shorter Abyss cable at this point, possibly with VH Audio OCC copper with Airlok or OCC silver with Airlok, maybe a hybrid of both...


----------



## llamaluv

Jon L said:


> But is it your favorite cable on the Abyss..?
> I think I am just going to make my own shorter Abyss cable at this point, possibly with VH Audio OCC copper with Airlok or OCC silver with Airlok, maybe a hybrid of both...


Jon, I'll PM you in a sec so as to not go further off-topic.


----------



## CayinSupport

*Cayin's Chinese New Year Holiday Announcement*

The Chinese New Year is around the corner, all teams in Cayin will be having their yearly holiday starting from this Sunday.

Holiday period: _19/01/2020 to 02/02/2020_

Everything will be back to normal operation on February 3rd.

During this period, you can still contact us by DM on Facebook or tag @CayinSupport in your post.

All members of Cayin wish everyone an amazing Year of the Rat.


----------



## DrummerLeo

Andykong said:


> The slightly tepid reports probably originated from me.  I shouldn't have said that as a brand rep. but the audiophile blood inside me somehow sold me out.
> 
> I think the Abyss AB-1266 + HA-300 is more a synergy issue between 300B power tube and the house sound of 1266, and the latest Phi TC just put things slightly more difficult then the previous version.  To me, the glorious part of 300B power tube is intimating mid-range, outstanding microdynamic, extremely rich harmonic and holographic presentation.  The headphone implementation of 300B placed these beautiful tonal characteristic  in full-scale dynamic and FR extension context, something uneasy to obtain from speaker application.  Unfortunately, I still find the 300B  lacking if you are after rumbling bass and wide soundstage in a magnificent presentation.
> 
> But I haven't heard the EML 300B (I assume you have the XLS version) which is said to be the strongest 300B tube, maybe this can contribute to the synergy issue and help HA-300 and Aybss Phi TC matching.  So maybe keeping the Sylvania Baldwin 6SN7GTB as-is, AB compare the stock 300B vs EML 300L with your Abyss Phi TC will clarify my hopothesis.


Try the Psvane ACME 300B, that's a great pair of 300B tubes. To my ears, ACME 300Bs have a very open and precious sound, the combo of HA300 + ACME sounds like a mixture of high-end SS and 300B. I have tried TA300B, Elrog 300B, FullMusic 300B/Q, and ACME 300B recently on HA300, I'm confident enough to say ACME is so far the best tie with TA300B but in different flavors. I tested with TC, Susvara, D8000pro and Utopia+Dana all these headphones are handled extremely well under this combo.
Susvara: The overall sound becomes fuller and richer, the treble extension is further improved, the soundstage is about 30% larger than before. IMO, Susvara still fits this system the best.
TC: Previously, I do find the 300B amps generally make TC sound a bit too gentle, even with those TOTL 300B tubes (except Elrog). ACME is like a more refined or smoother version of Elrog (which sounds very clean but a little harsh in treble sometimes, an atypical 300B sound I would say). ACME is rich and warm in the bottom-end but clean and open in the treble. Thus, I feel ACME fixes some problems of TC without affecting the sound signature of TC by too much, the extra warmth in the mid-bass makes TC sound more "approachable". However, the bass attack is still not as satisfying as it with SS amps like headtrip.


----------



## ken6217

Try the KR Audio Cole Bottle 300B tube. Very dynamic and killer bass.


----------



## DrummerLeo

ken6217 said:


> Try the KR Audio Cole Bottle 300B tube. Very dynamic and killer bass.


Is that the HP version?


----------



## ken6217

No. The HA-300 can’t take advantage of the HP. Same situation as the EML XLS.


----------



## Maxx134 (Jan 24, 2020)

llamaluv said:


> Since then I've gone in the opposite direction with a Wireworld Nano Eclipse Platinum.



I have the one step down version:




 And it is not solid silver.



But this cable(wireworldcable) is the first and only silver & copper wire that beat out my fav solid core silver, and my fancy silver Norne cable.

The technology is unique and proves its not just the metal or the any fancy winding.

This is one of the most resolving wire I have ever heard, with the other being the MIT Vero Reference cable (mitcables).

Neither of these are  normal braided cables.
I no longer believe the hype of fancy braided cable.


----------



## dstubked

does anyone has anything to say comparing the HA-300 to a Woo WA5-LE?


----------



## ken6217

I’ve had both. HA-300 to me is much better. Personally I don’t think the WA5 is that good. Period


----------



## Ake_Y (Jan 27, 2020)

Just want to update my channel imbalance situation. I've tried burn-in and swap tubes / cables. However, right channel is still louder than left channel. I'm not sure whether VU meters are accurate neither. Do I have to check anything else before taking it back to store for fixing? Thank you.

*Note* : the left video is recorded today, while the right video was recorded on September 2019


----------



## jambaj0e

Hey guys, so I'm very interested in this amp as my potential 300B amp. I have the Chord Qutest DAC and the Audeze LCD-3. How do either one pair with this amp?


----------



## iceanddice

jambaj0e said:


> Hey guys, so I'm very interested in this amp as my potential 300B amp. I have the Chord Qutest DAC and the Audeze LCD-3. How do either one pair with this amp?



have this amp... used to own a Qutest and can say nothing but good things with the pairing. Great extension and detail, with a solid low end.


----------



## jambaj0e

Does anyone have this amp in Los Angeles? I'd really love to have a listen with my LCD-3. I'm literally waiting for my dealer to get me one, BUT the coronavirus situation in China is preventing them from shipping one over =X


----------



## DrummerLeo

I just published my review on Final D8000 Pro and some comparisons versus Utopia, Susvara, 1266 TC.  All impressions are based on HA300 as the main amp. I think that would be helpful for you guys who are looking for some information about this gorgeous amp! 
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/final-d8000-pro-edition.23832/reviews


----------



## jambaj0e

Were you able to try the D8000 Pro on other amps? What do you find to be the pros and cons? 




DrummerLeo said:


> I just published my review on Final D8000 Pro and some comparisons versus Utopia, Susvara, 1266 TC.  All impressions are based on HA300 as the main amp. I think that would be helpful for you guys who are looking for some information about this gorgeous amp!
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/final-d8000-pro-edition.23832/reviews


----------



## DrummerLeo

jambaj0e said:


> Were you able to try the D8000 Pro on other amps? What do you find to be the pros and cons?


I haven't tried any other amps in similar sound quality. I have tested D8000 Pro on SMSL SP200, but they are not comparable in terms of sound quality, HA300 wins in almost every aspect. I was expecting that sp200 has a darker background and possibly more details, but the backgrounds from these two amps are quite similar and I got more details from HA300.


----------



## jambaj0e

Hi guys! I'm finally going to be in the Ha-300 family, as I was able to buy a used one for a great deal. I personally have the Audeze LCD-3, which I hear pairs nicely with this Amp. My next upgrade is probably going to be the Rosson Rad-0. Had anyone heard that headphone on this Amp? 

Ooh, I can't wait to get it, hopefully by the end of this coming week!


----------



## LCMusicLover

jambaj0e said:


> Hi guys! I'm finally going to be in the Ha-300 family ... My next upgrade is probably going to be the Rosson Rad-0...


Wow, I’m jealous — I’d love to hear myRAD-0 from one of these. It has such a ‘clean’ precise sound that I think a little tube magic will really make them sing.


----------



## LCMusicLover

LCMusicLover said:


> Wow, I’m jealous — I’d love to hear myRAD-0 from one of these. It has such a ‘clean’ precise sound that I think a little tube magic will really make them sing.


Amusing ... just after this post I was reading the Hiby R8 thread and they mentioned the ‘tonality’ feature of the R6 Pro which I just bought. The feature has a ‘tube amp’ setting, so I immediately grabbed my RAD-0 to try it. Again, expectation bias confirmed. First track which came up was Sade’s ‘No Ordinary Love’, and the ‘tube amp’ setting made her voice seem even more ‘liquid’.

I get that there’s no way this feature gets anywhere near the effect an actual tube amp would have on the sound, but it does give a sense of where a tube amp could take RAD-0. 

I must resist!


----------



## CayinSupport (Feb 3, 2020)

Dear customers,

According to the government's latest notice, due to the Coronavirus outbreak in the nation, the Chinese New Year holiday has been extended for a week, to Sunday, February 9th. All team members will be back in the office on February 10th.

However, you can still contact us on our Facebook page if you have any enquiry about our products or customer service.

We wish everyone a healthy and happy 2020.




CayinSupport said:


> *Cayin's Chinese New Year Holiday Announcement*
> 
> The Chinese New Year is around the corner, all teams in Cayin will be having their yearly holiday starting from this Sunday.
> 
> ...


----------



## CayinSupport (Feb 3, 2020)

Dear customers,

According to the government's latest notice, due to the Coronavirus outbreak in the nation, the Chinese New Year holiday has been extended for a week, to Sunday, February 9th. All team members will be back in the office on February 10th.

However, you can still contact us on our Facebook page if you have any enquiry about our products or customer service.

We wish everyone a healthy and happy 2020.




CayinSupport said:


> *Cayin's Chinese New Year Holiday Announcement*
> 
> The Chinese New Year is around the corner, all teams in Cayin will be having their yearly holiday starting from this Sunday.
> 
> ...


----------



## jambaj0e

so I just got the Cayin HA-300 amp for my LCD-3 + Chord Qutest combo, and I have to say.... it's quieter and has less impact than my Thx AAA 789 + SChiit Lyr 3, and there's not a lot of the bass slam/impact/extension. I'm kinda disappointed, actually. It's kinda like, it's not substantially more special than what I already have. I feel like I'm missing some full-bodyness in the mid-bass and bass.

First track I put on is Selena Gomez's "Lose You to Love Me," and I don't think I'm getting all the complex timbre in the piano nor the powerful low end sound of the double bass plucks. I remember hearing this track on the Woo Audio WA5-LE + LCD-4, as well as the Primaluna EVO 200+ my LCD-3, and I found them to be more engaging.

I don't know maybe I just have to listen to this a bit more, see if I can get used to it or keep my old system and find another alternative.


----------



## jmills8

jambaj0e said:


> so I just got the Cayin HA-300 amp for my LCD-3 + Chord Qutest combo, and I have to say.... it's quieter and has less impact than my Thx AAA 789 + SChiit Lyr 3, and there's not a lot of the bass slam/impact/extension. I'm kinda disappointed, actually. It's kinda like, it's not substantially more special than what I already have. I feel like I'm missing some full-bodyness in the mid-bass and bass.
> 
> First track I put on is Selena Gomez's "Lose You to Love Me," and I don't think I'm getting all the complex timbre in the piano nor the powerful low end sound of the double bass plucks. I remember hearing this track on the Woo Audio WA5-LE + LCD-4, as well as the Primaluna EVO 200+ my LCD-3, and I found them to be more engaging.
> 
> I don't know maybe I just have to listen to this a bit more, see if I can get used to it or keep my old system and find another alternative.


You bought this ?





and it gives no impact and no bass ?


----------



## jambaj0e

jmills8 said:


> You bought this ?
> 
> 
> and it gives no impact and no bass ?



Well, it's starting to warm up and the bass extension is starting to come in more. I still have to use the EQ on the bass that I've had before for the Ly3+THX 789, but it's coming in more than before. The previous owner bought it early Dec, so maybe it is still kind of new. By the way, I don't have the 300b tubes like the ones in the photo. I have these. Are these the newer ones or older ones?



Also, on my LCD-3, I have more volume and impact coming out of the SE vs the 4-pin XLR. Is that common?


----------



## GuyForkes (Feb 7, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> so I just got the Cayin HA-300 amp for my LCD-3 + Chord Qutest combo, and I have to say.... it's quieter and has less impact than my Thx AAA 789 + SChiit Lyr 3, and there's not a lot of the bass slam/impact/extension. I'm kinda disappointed, actually. It's kinda like, it's not substantially more special than what I already have. I feel like I'm missing some full-bodyness in the mid-bass and bass.
> 
> First track I put on is Selena Gomez's "Lose You to Love Me," and I don't think I'm getting all the complex timbre in the piano nor the powerful low end sound of the double bass plucks. I remember hearing this track on the Woo Audio WA5-LE + LCD-4, as well as the Primaluna EVO 200+ my LCD-3, and I found them to be more engaging.
> 
> I don't know maybe I just have to listen to this a bit more, see if I can get used to it or keep my old system and find another alternative.



Traditionally, tube amps do not slam as hard in the bass vs solid state amps. Where a tube amp excels is in the treble where it is airier and more refined. Tube amps also do better on timbre, image separation and sound stage. I had the HA-300 for over a year and it's still my favourite amp to date.

My suggestion would be to:
- Let the amp warm up for at least 20 mins before listening
- Ensure that the impedance setting is correct and matches your headphone
- When possible, replace the tubes, start with the 6sn7s. Make sure they test strong, bad tubes severely impact sound quality, especially bass slam. Combo of Ken Rads (6sn7) & EML XLS (300b) was the best I tried in the area of bass slam.

Hope this helps.


----------



## jambaj0e (Feb 11, 2020)

So, after several hours, the bass is starting to settle in and become fuller. The resolution and clarity, I think, is also probably why I think it sounds "leaner" at first, but I realize that I'm hearing more detail and instrument separation than before.

It is not as warm as I'd think for a tube amp, but I have heard the Qutest is a bit more reference and leaner on bass than certain DACs, and the LCD-3 is also a bit leaner on bass, too.

UPDATE: WHOA!
After several days of listening and overnight pink noise sessions, this HA300 has blossomed beautifully. The bass has opened up a lot and has stronger weight and impact while staying concise. The soundstage has widened and everything just sounds richer.

I think the only thing that still kind of gets me a bit is the mid-treble can sometimes get a bit too forward and accentuated, but it's something I took care with a little EQ.

Overall, a fantastic headphone integrated amp, and I'm sure I'll start to get into tube-rolling soon.

Anyone have 2x Sylvania VT-231/6SN7GT 3-river Bad Boys they want to sell, lol? Which other ones should I look for my driver tubes? What about for the 300b?


----------



## jambaj0e

By the way, what line level voltage are you guys outputting from your DAC to the HA300? I'm still trying to decide whether to use 3V or 2V from my Qutest.


----------



## jambaj0e

Also, anyone tried rolling the Mullard ECC32 or Sylvania VT231 3-rivet bad boys? I have the 6SN7 version of the latter, but I know I'd have to buy a matched pair.

Do you guys recommend rolling these tubes first or the 300b?


----------



## CayinSupport

Dear customers,

Due to the Coronavirus outbreak in the country, we will restore limited service tomorrow on February 10th. Until the next notice, you still can contact us on our Facebook page for inquiry of our products and customer service.

Best regards,

Cayin


----------



## llamaluv

Have any current or former owners compared XLR vs RCA inputs? If I'm to interpret @Andykong's  post from a while back correctly, it sounds like RCA ought to be the optimal input, all other things being equal.

I started comparing the XLR and RCA inputs this evening and was surprised to discover that I highly preferred XLR, but I'm guessing my findings are more about the quality of my respective interconnect cables rather than that of the amp's inputs. My XLR interconnects are *Danacable Diamond Reference* 1-meter, and my RCA interconnects are *Danacable Diamond mk1* (non-Reference) 0.5-meter. The result using XLR was considerably punchier, deeper bass (always a welcome thing with a tube amp) and more extended treble and air, and generally slightly better all the way around. This was with the Abyss Phi TC.

Both connections were active simultaneously, going from the DAC to the HA300. It was easy and quick to volume-match by adjusting digital volume on the DAVE by +/- 6dB. Worth noting too is that the DAVE's preferred output is supposed to be RCA (though I doubt the DAVE's XLR loses much if at all to RCA in practice).

Anyway, if I could be half-way confident that the better results I'm getting via XLR is due to the interconnects and not the amp input, I may have to spring for another set of Diamond Ref's but with RCA terminations this time (since my current XLR pair are normally in use with my solid state amp), so was curious to know if anyone had anything thoughts...


----------



## jambaj0e (Feb 11, 2020)

I'm happy to say that after I got my HA300's tubes burned in a bit with 3 overnights of pink-noise, it is now sounding incredible and beautiful! I am just loving this amp now!!!

I know it's pretty early, but man, do I have an itch to tube roll now, lol!


----------



## jambaj0e

Anyone tried the Psvane Acme 300b on their HA300 yet? I think that'll be my upgrade 300b tubes once I settled on a good pair of 6SN7 (most likely Sylvania VT-231/6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boy or Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate)


----------



## UniqueMelody

jambaj0e said:


> Anyone tried the Psvane Acme 300b on their HA300 yet? I think that'll be my upgrade 300b tubes once I settled on a good pair of 6SN7 (most likely Sylvania VT-231/6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boy or Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate)


I have a short review in previous page, check that out.


----------



## Benny-x

DrummerLeo said:


> Try the Psvane ACME 300B, that's a great pair of 300B tubes. To my ears, ACME 300Bs have a very open and precious sound, the combo of HA300 + ACME sounds like a mixture of high-end SS and 300B. I have tried TA300B, Elrog 300B, FullMusic 300B/Q, and ACME 300B recently on HA300, I'm confident enough to say ACME is so far the best tie with TA300B but in different flavors. I tested with TC, Susvara, D8000pro and Utopia+Dana all these headphones are handled extremely well under this combo.
> Susvara: The overall sound becomes fuller and richer, the treble extension is further improved, the soundstage is about 30% larger than before. IMO, Susvara still fits this system the best.
> TC: Previously, I do find the 300B amps generally make TC sound a bit too gentle, even with those TOTL 300B tubes (except Elrog). ACME is like a more refined or smoother version of Elrog (which sounds very clean but a little harsh in treble sometimes, an atypical 300B sound I would say). ACME is rich and warm in the bottom-end but clean and open in the treble. Thus, I feel ACME fixes some problems of TC without affecting the sound signature of TC by too much, the extra warmth in the mid-bass makes TC sound more "approachable". However, the bass attack is still not as satisfying as it with SS amps like headtrip.


Can you talk more about the Elrogs vs. the Psvane ACMEs? I've been eyeing the Elrogs for a couple months now for my incoming HA-300 and am pretty interested in them because their technology is different than all the other 300B tubes in the field. 

I read a few reports on the Psvane ACMEs so far and they're all positive, but none of them are actually with thise HA-300. And very few of them mention the Elrogs. 



ken6217 said:


> Try the KR Audio Cole Bottle 300B tube. Very dynamic and killer bass.


Did you stick with these as your final choice in the HA-300 or did they just put on the best dynamic, killer bass show? And if so, how'd your 1st place pick compare on those fronts?



Maxx134 said:


> I have the one step down version:
> 
> And it is not solid silver.
> 
> ...


I've followed a lot of your modding threads and also slightly kept track of your cables, so this is surprising to read. I've never been sold by the fancy braiding or thinking it had a big effect on the sound from companies like Norne or DHC as compared to the specifics of the wire they were using and the internal geometry of that wire. 

What do you think it is about these WW cables that is beating out all your previous ones?



llamaluv said:


> Have any current or former owners compared XLR vs RCA inputs? If I'm to interpret @Andykong's  post from a while back correctly, it sounds like RCA ought to be the optimal input, all other things being equal.
> 
> I started comparing the XLR and RCA inputs this evening and was surprised to discover that I highly preferred XLR, but I'm guessing my findings are more about the quality of my respective interconnect cables rather than that of the amp's inputs. My XLR interconnects are *Danacable Diamond Reference* 1-meter, and my RCA interconnects are *Danacable Diamond mk1* (non-Reference) 0.5-meter. The result using XLR was considerably punchier, deeper bass (always a welcome thing with a tube amp) and more extended treble and air, and generally slightly better all the way around. This was with the Abyss Phi TC.
> 
> ...


I took part in those earlier posts by Andy and shared the signal path diagrams. The point was never that the RCA signal path would be better in any way, it was just that it was more direct beause a 300B tube is single-ended (it could be balanced, but that's not the point here wit hthe HA-300) and thus the middle of this amp is single ended. So going RCA in->6.3mm out is the least complicated and most direct path through this amp. 

However, Cayin winds there own transformers and the XLR/balanced input transformer->SE signal->300B tubes->XLR/balanced output transformer was DESIGNED into the amp from the drawing board. It's not an afterthought and not half-assed implementation. And by leveraging the balanced input transformer and balanced output transformer, the designers would have even more control in delivering a target sound signature rather than being more exposed with the RCA input (source quality/choice) and RCA output (tube quality/choice).

So, your finding about the cables might just mean that you're finding the XLR input and XLR output of the amp are better than the RCA and 6.3mm ones. It could also be your cables, that's true, but when you've got ones that are already both "good", it doesn't add up to me that the clear preference you've found must be coming from the marginal differences in cables rather than the significant differences in amp signal path. 

Do you have any other ideas what might be going on? It's an interesting topic, and those are nice interconnects and headphones you've got on either end of that amp


----------



## DrummerLeo

Benny-x said:


> Can you talk more about the Elrogs vs. the Psvane ACMEs? I've been eyeing the Elrogs for a couple months now for my incoming HA-300 and am pretty interested in them because their technology is different than all the other 300B tubes in the field.
> 
> I read a few reports on the Psvane ACMEs so far and they're all positive, but none of them are actually with thise HA-300. And very few of them mention the Elrogs.
> 
> ...


Elrogs are indeed quite different from other 300B tubes. To me, they do not sound like a 300B but more like a 2A3 or SS even. The resolution, speed and dynamic from Elrogs are probably the best that I have ever heard from 300B tubes. But as a trade-off, the mid from Elrogs sound less lively compared with ACMEs, also the treble is a little bit dry and maybe sharp from Elrogs. ACMEs are more refined and smoother, they have a very beautiful and fluid mid and the treble is very airy and smooth. The resolution and transparency of ACMEs are not as good as Elrogs but very close. Also, the bass from ACEM improved a lot after burn-in.
Let say it in this way:
Resolution & Transparency: ER>=ACME
Soundstage: ER=ACME
Dynamic: ER>ACME
Bass: ER>=ACME
Mid: ACME>>ER
Treble: ACME>>ER
Value: ACME>>ER
Elrogs are great as their own, but ACME is a no-brainer for the price. You can save a few hundred bucks with ACME and invest that money on cables to improve the bass and dynamic of your system accordingly. 
If you really like the signature of ER300Bs then go for them, but it kinda loses the point of playing with 300Bs.


----------



## llamaluv

Benny-x said:


> So, your finding about the cables might just mean that you're finding the XLR input and XLR output of the amp are better than the RCA and 6.3mm ones. It could also be your cables, that's true, but when you've got ones that are already both "good", it doesn't add up to me that the clear preference you've found must be coming from the marginal differences in cables rather than the significant differences in amp signal path.
> 
> Do you have any other ideas what might be going on? It's an interesting topic, and those are nice interconnects and headphones you've got on either end of that amp



Thanks for your thoughts. I agree, it does sound like the XLR "conversions" being done in the amp are of a very high quality. I think the only way to know for sure (or at least to be "more sure") will be to use two interconnects that are identical except for their terminations and compare them side-by-side. Maybe two pairs of inexpensive interconnects from, say, Blue Jeans Cables or something similar, before moving forward...


----------



## Benny-x

llamaluv said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. I agree, it does sound like the XLR "conversions" being done in the amp are of a very high quality. I think the only way to know for sure (or at least to be "more sure") will be to use two interconnects that are identical except for their terminations and compare them side-by-side. Maybe two pairs of inexpensive interconnects from, say, Blue Jeans Cables or something similar, before moving forward...


Blue Jeans Cables is a solid choice to start with. I still like my Belden ethernet cable from them.

That "identical" part for 2 different interconnects is a rabbit hole. You already mentioned about your DAC's preferred output, and what you could end up showing is your DAC's preferred output. It's a system, so the amp isn't operating in isolation, but to get closer to showing the amp's best signal path you may need more DACs to test from, to get a more amp-focused picture of how the inputs sound. I guess you'd be getting into scholarly work there vs. just looking for the best combination. Could be good if you ever looked at changing your DAC down the road, though.

If I were doing this, though, I would definitely make sure to roll at least 2 sets of 300B tubes and 2 sets of 6SN7 tubes while I was rolling the cables. This way you can see how those inputs reflect the changes in tubes, which is giving you a hint of how transparent each respective input is. And then it'd be good to try different DACs for the same reason...

Good luck with it. Please make sure to post your results, it's valuable to all of us.


----------



## Benny-x

DrummerLeo said:


> Elrogs are indeed quite different from other 300B tubes. To me, they do not sound like a 300B but more like a 2A3 or SS even. The resolution, speed and dynamic from Elrogs are probably the best that I have ever heard from 300B tubes. But as a trade-off, the mid from Elrogs sound less lively compared with ACMEs, also the treble is a little bit dry and maybe sharp from Elrogs. ACMEs are more refined and smoother, they have a very beautiful and fluid mid and the treble is very airy and smooth. The resolution and transparency of ACMEs are not as good as Elrogs but very close. Also, the bass from ACEM improved a lot after burn-in.
> Let say it in this way:
> Resolution & Transparency: ER>=ACME
> Soundstage: ER=ACME
> ...


Thanks a million for that deeper feedback. Really clear and helpful. 

With the differences between them, it sounds like the two would make for good tube-rolling compliments. I think I'll take your advice and move on the ACMEs first, then take a shot at the Elrogs once funds free up. 

One last question. How did you find each tube matched with the 6SN7 tubes? I mean, what were the best combinations and did you find either the ACMEs or the Elrogs to either be more transparent of their partner tubes capabilities or to be more influenced by them, etc?


----------



## jambaj0e

CRAP CRAP CRAP!! I just came home, and when I tried playing music, my Cayin HA-300 did not play any music! Nothing is going through it via RCA interconnect, and my right 300b tube is out. 

I switched the two 300bs tube and the one that didn't light up stayed off.

I switched out both 300b tube with another set of 300b tubes, and while they light up, I'm still not getting any sound or even any VU meter.  

To rule out any other components, I took out my old Drop THX AAA 789, and music played normally on them.

This is INCREDIBLY frustrating!! This amp is only from November and I am getting NOTHING now!


----------



## Jarle

jambaj0e said:


> CRAP CRAP CRAP!! I just came home, and when I tried playing music, my Cayin HA-300 did not play any music! Nothing is going through it via RCA interconnect, and my right 300b tube is out.
> 
> I switched the two 300bs tube and the one that didn't light up stayed off.
> 
> ...



It’s quit similar to a problem I had two months ago.

The right 300B tube died as I switched on the amp and then went silent.

My dealer (in Norway) did fix it by changing a fuse in the power supply.


----------



## jambaj0e

Jarle said:


> It’s quit similar to a problem I had two months ago.
> 
> The right 300B tube died as I switched on the amp and then went silent.
> 
> My dealer (in Norway) did fix it by changing a fuse in the power supply.



Damnit, I bought it used and the dealer that the original guy bought it is in New York. I'm in Los Angeles!


----------



## Jarle

jambaj0e said:


> Damnit, I bought it used and the dealer that the original guy bought it is in New York. I'm in Los Angeles!



My dealer did remove the bottom plate to get access to the fuse. He don´t remember what kind of fuse but he said it´s not a regular fuse.


----------



## Jarle (Feb 13, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> Anyone tried the Psvane Acme 300b on their HA300 yet? I think that'll be my upgrade 300b tubes once I settled on a good pair of 6SN7 (most likely Sylvania VT-231/6SN7GT 3-hole Bad Boy or Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate)


 
*I have not tried the Acme but I do use Psvane WE Series WE300B. Compared to Full Music they are significant more transparent, dynamic and joyful with an articulated bass.*

*The reason I didn´t go for Acme is that the dealer told me they bring the stage closer and that the WE300B is slightly warmer in the midrange. *


----------



## jambaj0e

Sigh, well, I managed to convince the guy I bought it for a refund and I returned it. 

I think I'll buy the Ha-300 straight from the Musictek dealer, unless you guys can suggest much better 300b Amp in the same price range.

The question is, am I going to have to worry about the long term reliability of the Ha-300? This was stressful as hell.


----------



## jmills8

jambaj0e said:


> Sigh, well, I managed to convince the guy I bought it for a refund and I returned it.
> 
> I think I'll buy the Ha-300 straight from the Musictek dealer, unless you guys can suggest much better 300b Amp in the same price range.
> 
> The question is, am I going to have to worry about the long term reliability of the Ha-300? This was stressful as hell.


Wow , bet its just a tiny thing yo replace.


----------



## jambaj0e

You know, one thing I don't quite understand is how to read Cayin's headphone power ratings. Why is it written as a "mW number + mW number" for both Balanced and Single-Ended. For example Balanced has 2200mW+2200mW for medium impedance and 3700mW+3700mW for high.

Single-ended, surprisingly, is showing more power, correct? How do you interpret 2400mW+2400mW (M) and 5000mW+5000mW (H)?I did notice that single ended is louder, but I always thought balanced would be more powerful than single-ended.


----------



## jmills8

jambaj0e said:


> You know, one thing I don't quite understand is how to read Cayin's headphone power ratings. Why is it written as a "mW number + mW number" for both Balanced and Single-Ended. For example Balanced has 2200mW+2200mW for medium impedance and 3700mW+3700mW for high.
> 
> Single-ended, surprisingly, is showing more power, correct? How do you interpret 2400mW+2400mW (M) and 5000mW+5000mW (H)?I did notice that single ended is louder, but I always thought balanced would be more powerful than single-ended.


 2400 = 2.4 watts , but I just use my hearing not go by numbers and symbols.


----------



## jambaj0e

I know 2400mW means 2.4W. I meant, why is single-ended written as 2400mW +2400mW? Why the addition symbol and the two numbers?


----------



## LCMusicLover

jambaj0e said:


> I know 2400mW means 2.4W. I meant, why is single-ended written as 2400mW +2400mW? Why the addition symbol and the two numbers?


They used to say ‘...xxx watts per channel...’ Same idea. It’s all just marketing copy.


----------



## jambaj0e

Dies anyone have better, high resolution photos of the inside of both units?


----------



## Stefanbat

I had a problem while auditioning the HA-300  on original tubes, that it to warm for my taste. 
Does tube swaping for some 500$ 300B, can make this amp sound colder?


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> CRAP CRAP CRAP!! I just came home, and when I tried playing music, my Cayin HA-300 did not play any music! Nothing is going through it via RCA interconnect, and my right 300b tube is out.
> 
> I switched the two 300bs tube and the one that didn't light up stayed off.
> 
> ...





jambaj0e said:


> Sigh, well, I managed to convince the guy I bought it for a refund and I returned it.
> 
> I think I'll buy the Ha-300 straight from the Musictek dealer, unless you guys can suggest much better 300b Amp in the same price range.
> 
> The question is, am I going to have to worry about the long term reliability of the Ha-300? This was stressful as hell.



Sorry to know that you have run into some problem with your HA-300.   We resume operation today after a long break but I still can't get hold of the Engineer and get his advice on your case.  Only one out of three support engineers are available today.   

If the tubes are lighting up and the transformer were running warm, then the problem is likely a minor one, but troubleshooting might be a bit inconvenient.  Anyway this is nothing much we can do right now.  I assume the original owner will contact his dealer and the case will come back to us through other channel.   

MusicTeck is a good dealer with reputable track record in customer service, he takes good care of his customers.  I sincerely hope you'll have an satisfactory experience if you decided to go for HA-300 again.


----------



## Andykong

Stefanbat said:


> I had a problem while auditioning the HA-300  on original tubes, that it to warm for my taste.
> Does tube swaping for some 500$ 300B, can make this amp sound colder?



Tube rolling definitely will change the sound signature, especially if you prefer a more transparent and neutral (less-warm) presentation, but I think you should start with roling the 6SN7 instead of the 300B tubes.  I believe options such as Sylvania vt231 and Sylvania 6SN7W  might fit your bill.  I am not a tube guy so I am sure there are better 6SN7 options out there.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> Dies anyone have better, high resolution photos of the inside of both units?



I only have the internal photo of the Amp box.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> You know, one thing I don't quite understand is how to read Cayin's headphone power ratings. Why is it written as a "mW number + mW number" for both Balanced and Single-Ended. For example Balanced has 2200mW+2200mW for medium impedance and 3700mW+3700mW for high.
> 
> Single-ended, surprisingly, is showing more power, correct? How do you interpret 2400mW+2400mW (M) and 5000mW+5000mW (H)?I did notice that single ended is louder, but I always thought balanced would be more powerful than single-ended.



You can read that as  2.2Wpc for medium impedance, that will be the common presentation of speaker amplifier.  The specification of headphone amplifier appears in different format.  Some manufacturer provides one numbers without stating whether that is total output or per channel output, so we want to stated explicitly that this is per channel rating. 

The output power of transformer coupled tube amplifier is NOT a linear function like Solid State amplifier, and balanced is NOT necessarily more powerful then single-ended.  The design (winding) of the transformer plays a deciding role here, not the amount of electrical components, especially when the 300B and 6SN7 are operated in Single-ended configuration.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> Have any current or former owners compared XLR vs RCA inputs? If I'm to interpret @Andykong's  post from a while back correctly, it sounds like RCA ought to be the optimal input, all other things being equal.
> 
> I started comparing the XLR and RCA inputs this evening and was surprised to discover that I highly preferred XLR, but I'm guessing my findings are more about the quality of my respective interconnect cables rather than that of the amp's inputs. My XLR interconnects are *Danacable Diamond Reference* 1-meter, and my RCA interconnects are *Danacable Diamond mk1* (non-Reference) 0.5-meter. The result using XLR was considerably punchier, deeper bass (always a welcome thing with a tube amp) and more extended treble and air, and generally slightly better all the way around. This was with the Abyss Phi TC.
> 
> ...





Benny-x said:


> I took part in those earlier posts by Andy and shared the signal path diagrams. The point was never that the RCA signal path would be better in any way, it was just that it was more direct beause a 300B tube is single-ended (it could be balanced, but that's not the point here wit hthe HA-300) and thus the middle of this amp is single ended. So going RCA in->6.3mm out is the least complicated and most direct path through this amp.
> 
> However, Cayin winds there own transformers and the XLR/balanced input transformer->SE signal->300B tubes->XLR/balanced output transformer was DESIGNED into the amp from the drawing board. It's not an afterthought and not half-assed implementation. And by leveraging the balanced input transformer and balanced output transformer, the designers would have even more control in delivering a target sound signature rather than being more exposed with the RCA input (source quality/choice) and RCA output (tube quality/choice).
> 
> ...



The RCA route is not better, but its is a slightly simpler route.  The XLR input will convert to singled-ended by a pair of input transformer before feeding to 6SN7, everything is identical after that.  Since converting from Balanced to Single-ended is relatively straightforward, I doubt you can hear the different, after volume matched, because of the extra conversion stage, maybe when you are using a very revealing system and you are purposively looking for the different.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> By the way, what line level voltage are you guys outputting from your DAC to the HA300? I'm still trying to decide whether to use 3V or 2V from my Qutest.



I recommend you use  2V from the Qutest, that 's the input level we used during R&D and final fine turning.


----------



## Jarle

Stefanbat said:


> I had a problem while auditioning the HA-300  on original tubes, that it to warm for my taste.
> Does tube swaping for some 500$ 300B, can make this amp sound colder?



*Psvane WE Series WE300B. Compared to Full Music they are colder (more neutral), significant more transparent, dynamic and joyful with an articulated bass. *


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Sorry to know that you have run into some problem with your HA-300.   We resume operation today after a long break but I still can't get hold of the Engineer and get his advice on your case.  Only one out of three support engineers are available today.
> 
> If the tubes are lighting up and the transformer were running warm, then the problem is likely a minor one, but troubleshooting might be a bit inconvenient.  Anyway this is nothing much we can do right now.  I assume the original owner will contact his dealer and the case will come back to us through other channel.
> 
> MusicTeck is a good dealer with reputable track record in customer service, he takes good care of his customers.  I sincerely hope you'll have an satisfactory experience if you decided to go for HA-300 again.



I ended buying an ha-300 straight from Musictek this time & it should come this week! Hope to have a better experience since I really like the Amp!


----------



## jambaj0e

Jarle said:


> *Psvane WE Series WE300B. Compared to Full Music they are colder (more neutral), significant more transparent, dynamic and joyful with an articulated bass. *



You'd choose the Psvane WE 300B over the ACME? If I want something like the WE, but warmer, what's my best choice?


----------



## JinTam

jambaj0e said:


> I ended buying an ha-300 straight from Musictek this time & it should come this week! Hope to have a better experience since I really like the Amp!


I just had a similar event with the amp almost going dead. It turns out that the sockets were loose and the service center tighten them up and it works flawlessly again. Seems to be the 300B and 6SN7 sockets.
Other symptoms were one of the channels would go silent. 

Anyways, I hope this helps some body with similar problems.


----------



## jambaj0e

Question: Do you tend to leave your HA-300 when you're not using it? Here's an interesting video regarding if it's better to leave electronic equipment on or not:

Does leaving equipment on shorten its life?


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Sorry to know that you have run into some problem with your HA-300.   We resume operation today after a long break but I still can't get hold of the Engineer and get his advice on your case.  Only one out of three support engineers are available today.
> 
> If the tubes are lighting up and the transformer were running warm, then the problem is likely a minor one, but troubleshooting might be a bit inconvenient.  Anyway this is nothing much we can do right now.  I assume the original owner will contact his dealer and the case will come back to us through other channel.
> 
> MusicTeck is a good dealer with reputable track record in customer service, he takes good care of his customers.  I sincerely hope you'll have an satisfactory experience if you decided to go for HA-300 again.



Also Andy, where is the fuse for the HA-300? Are there two of them? How do I open the one under the power plug, and for the 2nd one do you have to open up the main case, which is something the dealer probably should do? These are things that are seriously lacking from the manual.


----------



## Thenewguy007

jambaj0e said:


> Question: Do you tend to leave your HA-300 when you're not using it? Here's an interesting video regarding if it's better to leave electronic equipment on or not:
> 
> Does leaving equipment on shorten its life?



For solid state, yes, but you DO NOT want to leave a tube amp powered on 24/7.
Those tubes have a 10,000 hour lifespan. Turn the amp on, only when you plan on using it.


----------



## Benny-x

I fire my tube amps up about 30-60mins before really listening to them. Let's everything settle in. I also log my hours in an Excel spreadsheet, damn consumables.

For solid state, pretty much 24/7 unless I'm going away or expect not ot be using them for a week.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> Also Andy, where is the fuse for the HA-300? Are there two of them? How do I open the one under the power plug, and for the 2nd one do you have to open up the main case, which is something the dealer probably should do? These are things that are seriously lacking from the manual.



If you are referring to the fuse right below the IEC power connector, you can use a small flat headed screwdriver applied at the red arrow location to replace the fuse.






In our opinion, anything related to removing the chassis cover and gain access to internal circuit is consider service instruction and we didn't include this information in User Guide.   Some countries have very straight rules on the consumer safety and we have to comply all requirements.


----------



## deuter

Who sells this amp  in Australia, can we demo?


----------



## jambaj0e

So happy to get my replacement HA-300! It was an open box review unit from MusicTeck, but for $2800 WITH full warranty since it's from the dealer, it's practically a steal. Curiously, it has the older-style 300b tubes. I have to say that since this was a review unit, the tubes are properly burnt in and that expansive soundstage, clarity, and sweet mids are very present in this system vs the previous I had that I received with only 50 hours on the tubes.


----------



## deuter

Will this amp power the Abyss 1266 headphones?


----------



## llamaluv

deuter said:


> Will this amp power the Abyss 1266 headphones?


Shor can. Listening to the HA-300 w/ the TC this very moment.


----------



## deuter

llamaluv said:


> Shor can. Listening to the HA-300 w/ the TC this very moment.


Nice. does it get loud?
You compared to any other amps?


----------



## jambaj0e

Has anyone rolled their 6SN7 tubes yet? While I really like the stock ones, I'm probably going to try my newly bought matched pair of Sylvania 1952 3-hole Bad Boys. I'm sure it can handle it, right?


----------



## jambaj0e (Feb 26, 2020)

Just rolled it to my 1952 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys! So far, I noticed a bit less air in the treble and more body in the bass and mid-bass. Soundstage is slightly more intimate than the Shuguang, but still large enough. Vocals seem to be much more forward, though.

I may like this more for its bass performance, but may go back to the Shuguangs since I think it pairs better with the LCD3.


----------



## jambaj0e

So quick question, what are the safety measures in rolling 300b tubes? Am I not supposed to do it right away after shutting down? Do I wait after powering down and swapping for a certain amount of time before powering back on?


----------



## llamaluv

deuter said:


> Nice. does it get loud?
> You compared to any other amps?



Yes, plenty loud, at least for me. When using XLR coming from the DAVE (ie, 6 volts), I have the dial at the 2 o'clock to get the headphone to my normal listening volume of 70 dBA SPL RMS.

I'm been strongly preferring the HA300 over my Pass Labs speaker amp for the Phi TC these days. And also over the DAVE headphone-out (which I've never been crazy about as a headphone amp). I think neutral headphones like the Phi/TC or Utopia really benefit from the tonal richness and space that the HA300 can bring.

I will say, though, that choice of tubes plays a big role for getting the best synergy with the Phi TC. And more generally, I'm finding tube choice (for both the 6SN7s and 300Bs) to make a bigger difference with the HA300 than any of the previous 4 or 5 tubes amps I've had in the past..


----------



## llamaluv

jambaj0e said:


> Has anyone rolled their 6SN7 tubes yet? While I really like the stock ones, I'm probably going to try my newly bought matched pair of Sylvania 1952 3-hole Bad Boys. I'm sure it can handle it, right?



Now that I've had the amp for a couple months, I feel like I'm understanding differences between the 6SN7s that I have on hand a little better now. My experiences so far, but only for what they're worth (all while using EML 300B's):

PSVane CV-181 Tii - Extra-warm and thick, to the detriment of space and air and treble. Bass is very good though on the Abyss Phi TC. They can create a positive impression for a while because they're comfortable-sounding, but there's too much being omitted, and just too unspacious (Early on I had mentioned that I thought it sounded bright compared to others, which is strange to me now. It could have been due to the amp being un-burned-in at that time? Or maybe it's just me).


Tung Sol 6SN7GTB (unsure of the year, unfortunately) - My favorite at the moment. Very spacious and nicely imaged sound. And lots of nuance to dynamics. A little bit on the mid-forward side such that I find myself raising the bass a little with EQ, but other than that, no complaints. Having swapped these in only recently, there have been a few tracks where I've felt like I've never heard the Utopia sound so satisfying with acoustic instruments (piano, solo violin and cello come to mind).


RCA 6SN7GTB c. 1959 - Too bright!, which does seem a little odd to me. I should probably give them another go.


I had some Sylvanias briefly that were very nice and well balanced, but failed unfortunately. I have some 1940's Sylvanias on the way on the recommendation of Andy at vintagetubeservices.


----------



## llamaluv

jambaj0e said:


> So quick question, what are the safety measures in rolling 300b tubes? Am I not supposed to do it right away after shutting down? Do I wait after powering down and swapping for a certain amount of time before powering back on?



I like this post by @TomSix on the Studio Six thread:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/alo...s-and-impressions-thread.674498/post-12985441


----------



## llamaluv

DrummerLeo said:


> Try the Psvane ACME 300B, that's a great pair of 300B tubes. To my ears, ACME 300Bs have a very open and precious sound, the combo of HA300 + ACME sounds like a mixture of high-end SS and 300B. I have tried TA300B, Elrog 300B, FullMusic 300B/Q, and ACME 300B recently on HA300, I'm confident enough to say ACME is so far the best tie with TA300B but in different flavors. I tested with TC, Susvara, D8000pro and Utopia+Dana all these headphones are handled extremely well under this combo.
> Susvara: The overall sound becomes fuller and richer, the treble extension is further improved, the soundstage is about 30% larger than before. IMO, Susvara still fits this system the best.
> TC: Previously, I do find the 300B amps generally make TC sound a bit too gentle, even with those TOTL 300B tubes (except Elrog). ACME is like a more refined or smoother version of Elrog (which sounds very clean but a little harsh in treble sometimes, an atypical 300B sound I would say). ACME is rich and warm in the bottom-end but clean and open in the treble. Thus, I feel ACME fixes some problems of TC without affecting the sound signature of TC by too much, the extra warmth in the mid-bass makes TC sound more "approachable". However, the bass attack is still not as satisfying as it with SS amps like headtrip.



Just wanted to say thanks for your post, as it became the tipping point leading me to decide on the ACMEs as my next pair of 300Bs. So now I have them plugged in, and they're sounding great straight out of the box, listening to them with the TCs. "Vivid" is the main word that comes to mind. I'm coming from EML 300Bs. I believe the ACMEs do sound like they're in a different class.


----------



## DrummerLeo

"Vivid"! Spot on! ACME really should not be a hidden gem. I hope the price of ACME will not be hyped up forever. I still remember when I bought Fullmusic B/Q they were like $600ish, but now they go up to $800+ ... The same thing happened to Elrog and TAK which is a shame.


----------



## Jon L

DrummerLeo said:


> "Vivid"! Spot on! ACME really should not be a hidden gem. I hope the price of ACME will not be hyped up forever. I still remember when I bought Fullmusic B/Q they were like $600ish, but now they go up to $800+ ... The same thing happened to Elrog and TAK which is a shame.



Well, it's we audiophiles' fault for hyping many tubes up to the skies, claiming many to be the second coming of Jesus.  Tube vendors are only happy to take full advantage.  
It really is a crime what happened to 6SN7 and 300B prices IMO.  
Luckily, there are still few current-production tubes that sound very nice at much lower prices, e.g. Genalex Gold Lion PX300B


----------



## jambaj0e (Feb 27, 2020)

DrummerLeo said:


> "Vivid"! Spot on! ACME really should not be a hidden gem. I hope the price of ACME will not be hyped up forever. I still remember when I bought Fullmusic B/Q they were like $600ish, but now they go up to $800+ ... The same thing happened to Elrog and TAK which is a shame.



Oh yikes, hope the ACME 300b prices don't go up, I do want to get that. Where did you guys buy yours? Where's the best place/site to buy in the US?

 Do you think it makes a difference paying for Top 10% Best vs QC Pass? What's the difference between the Acme vs the Psvane WE300b (Western Replica)?


----------



## GU1DO

Hi ,, 
guys did anybody try this amp with HE6SE ?


----------



## DrummerLeo

GU1DO said:


> Hi ,,
> guys did anybody try this amp with HE6SE ?


I used to have HE6SE with HA300, but I sold them. HA300 is a good match with HE6SE, generally, Hifiman's sound signature works very well with 300B amps. In my experience, HA300 is an outstanding 300B amp at this price range, very versatile, superb build quality, great noise control, and I also prefer its sound over WA5LE 2, where to me WA5LE is more mid concentrated, HA300 is more balanced and elegant (don't count my words as the final judgment, everyone in this thread knows that I'm a stupid fanboy of this amp).


----------



## GU1DO

DrummerLeo said:


> I used to have HE6SE with HA300, but I sold them. HA300 is a good match with HE6SE, generally, Hifiman's sound signature works very well with 300B amps. In my experience, HA300 is an outstanding 300B amp at this price range, very versatile, superb build quality, great noise control, and I also prefer its sound over WA5LE 2, where to me WA5LE is more mid concentrated, HA300 is more balanced and elegant (don't count my words as the final judgment, everyone in this thread knows that I'm a stupid fanboy of this amp).


Thank you very much for the input , that's really impressive it can power the HE6se
This amp is high in my list but i am still exploring other options,
Thanks again


----------



## dadracer2

On the topic of tube/valve rolling has anyone tried the new Audio Note 4300E. It is the molybdenum anode 300B made by Psvane for AN. They are around the same price as the Psvane WE 1:1 replica 300B so expecting at least that level of performance.

Also has anyone tried the Psvane 6SN7 T series mk2 on the HA300 as it looks to be a cost effective upgrade.

Meantime I have come to what may well be the culmination of my quest for an ideal speaker match for the HA300. Yes, yes I know its not a headphone thing per se. Anyhow the speakers are Horning Hybrid Perikles. They are out of production but the new Horning Aristotle will fill that gap in the range presently I believe. Mine are pre owned but well loved and refurbished by the dealer. They are a bit over 96dB in sensitivity with a very easy impedance curve (min at 6.1ohm) and here is a review link from a bit ago but still relevant. It is by Thorsten Loesch of ifi Audio fame!!!
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0700/horning.htm

I had tried some regular high efficiency speakers (allegedly) and auditioned some horn based speakers but didn't like their sound too much. The Hornings are based around a full range speaker cone which is used almost as a midrange unit but the sound it very dynamic and quite neutral in the mids. The soundstage is quite headphone like to me (more so than regular speakers) and they fill our lounge with sound at only 11 o'clock on the volume dial which is ideal.


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> On the topic of tube/valve rolling has anyone tried the new Audio Note 4300E. It is the molybdenum anode 300B made by Psvane for AN. They are around the same price as the Psvane WE 1:1 replica 300B so expecting at least that level of performance.



I'm actually wondering about that Audio Note 4300E, too. Hopefully someone has some experience with it


----------



## DrummerLeo

Just a quick update. If you want to experience some KILLER BASS, try Ken Rad VT231(6sn7GT) black glass version(not the clear one, they are completely different), they are mind blowing!!! These tubes are all about the bass, it's deep, punchy and fast. The price of NOS KR VT231 is still OK, not as crazy as metal base sylvania 6sn7gtw or Tungsol v231 black round plate.


----------



## jambaj0e

DrummerLeo said:


> Just a quick update. If you want to experience some KILLER BASS, try Ken Rad VT231(6sn7GT) black glass version(not the clear one, they are completely different), they are mind blowing!!! These tubes are all about the bass, it's deep, punchy and fast. The price of NOS KR VT231 is still OK, not as crazy as metal base sylvania 6sn7gtw or Tungsol v231 black round plate.



I have used the Ken-Rad Black Glass on my Schiit Lyr 3 amp vs the Sylvania '52 3-hole Bad Boys, and although there's better bass, I felt the mids got a bit thinner w/ the Ken-Rad. I'm open to trying it again, though.


----------



## DrummerLeo

jambaj0e said:


> I have used the Ken-Rad Black Glass on my Schiit Lyr 3 amp vs the Sylvania '52 3-hole Bad Boys, and although there's better bass, I felt the mids got a bit thinner w/ the Ken-Rad. I'm open to trying it again, though.


Yes, they do make the mid thinner. I think that's also why they are one tiny step away from those all time classic 6sn7/vt231s. But with 300bs like TA300B, or ACMEs they are fine.


----------



## GuyForkes

I have most of the rare tubes in my collection including Tung-Sol BGRPs, Sylvania 6sn7w metal bases, RCA 5692s. My favourite 6sn7s for the HA-300 are the Melz 1578 (Perforated Anodes). Neutral sounding while tightening up the bass and giving a more airy treble, leading to more precise and holographic imaging. It is on the drier, leaner side though and not recommended for those who prefer a "tubier" sound.

These tubes are cheaper than Tung-Sol BGRPs and Sylvania metal bases but are pretty rare and most of those being sold aren't the real deal.
The real 1578s will feature:

A metal base ; not a plastic one.
Show an OTK label
The plates will be black, metallic, and have 2 holes in each, along with 5 holes on the poles.
The glass will absolutely state 1578 on it. If it doesn't have that, you're still not getting the right ones.
If you do come across them, its worth giving them a shot.


----------



## jambaj0e (Mar 5, 2020)

Do you guys notice any sonic improvements going from single ended to balanced headphone cable w/ the Cayin HA-300, given that it's not a true balanced amp end to end? 

I noticed on my LCD-3 2018 Fazor that going from my Single Ended to Balanced XLR on Periapt cables, I lose weight in the bottom end in place of clearer, more extended mids and treble.


----------



## geoffalter11

The HA 300 is gorgeous.  Maybe one day.  It might be a good replacement for my Pathos Aurium.  Looking forward to reading the entire thread.


----------



## jambaj0e

Question: when rolling a set 6SN7GT tubes, do you guys find that when top plate flexes a bit as you push down on the tubes into the socket?


----------



## jambaj0e (Mar 12, 2020)

Ever since I heard my first 300b tube amp, I knew I was hooked and that I have to have one. After much research, I took my chance and bought the Cayin HA-300 from Musicteck. I am definitely not disappointed with this amp. If you read the handful of reviews out there, they are all pretty much true.

On my system with the Chord Qutest DAC and Audeze LCD-3 Fazor (all cables from Morrow Audio), I am hearing a lot more dynamic musicality than ever before. There is a heightened sense of realness and presence that elevates the Audeze LCD-3 from what I thought was possible without having to upgrade to the LCD-4.

In addition to the music being more visceral, the soundstage and treble extension have opened up. The mids are still nice and lush, but vocals are no longer as veiled as my previous amp can sometimes exhibit.

The bass is still quite good. About the same amount of slam as before, but there's more tightness and articulation. Overall, instrumentation separation, resolution, and transients have improved. Another thing I notice is that with a highly resolving combo like what I have now, poorly mastered music sticks out like a sore thumb, while beautifully mastered tracks becomes even more enjoyable.

Interestingly, even though my Qutest outputs RCAs into the HA-300, when I switch over from Single Ended 6.3mm to 4-pin balanced XLR, I get even clearer mid-treble and treble, with just a slight loss of bass, which also came in tighter than before.

I would say that this tube amp is just left of neutral, but not overly buttery warm as some tube amps can be. Of course, all you need to do is roll some tubes to change the sound signature. These stock Shuguang WE6SN7 and JJ Full Music 300b tubes work very well with this amp, and I can't to explore other sound by rolling my tubes.


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> Ever since I heard my first 300b tube amp, I knew I was hooked and that I have to have one. After much research, I took my chance and bought the Cayin HA-300 from Musicteck. I am definitely not disappointed with this amp. If you read the handful of reviews out there, they are all pretty much true.
> 
> On my system with the Chord Qutest DAC and Audeze LCD-3 Fazor (all cables from Morrow Audio), I am hearing a lot more dynamic musicality than ever before. There is a heightened sense of realness and presence that elevates the Audeze LCD-3 from what I thought was possible without having to upgrade to the LCD-4.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on your new amp. I have had mine for about 6 months and it is still delightful. Most recently I have been tracking down speakers that would work well with it and haven't yet given any time to tube rolling but there are a numbers of folks on here who have. I was told early on that changing the 6SN7 would yield bigger results than the 300B and certainly would be cheaper. Enjoy!


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> Congratulations on your new amp. I have had mine for about 6 months and it is still delightful. Most recently I have been tracking down speakers that would work well with it and haven't yet given any time to tube rolling but there are a numbers of folks on here who have. I was told early on that changing the 6SN7 would yield bigger results than the 300B and certainly would be cheaper. Enjoy!



Thanks! What headphones and DAC are you using on it?

I do have the Matched Pair Psvane CV181-T Mark II Vacuum Tube New Premium Grade Treasure Tube on the way from Amazon. Heard some good things with these tubes that compete well to NOS and vintage tubes. 



Otherwise, I'm also waiting for a good deal on a pair of 6F8G Tungsol Black Glass Round Plate, hopefully under $400



My real goal, however is to get the pair of Psvane ACME 300B, though. At close to $1000, it'll hopefully be as amazing as I've been reading


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> Thanks! What headphones and DAC are you using on it?
> 
> I do have the Matched Pair Psvane CV181-T Mark II Vacuum Tube New Premium Grade Treasure Tube on the way from Amazon. Heard some good things with these tubes that compete well to NOS and vintage tubes.
> 
> ...


I have Sennheiser HD800S headphones which I think pair beautifully with the Cayin. i have a penchant for stereo imaging and neutrality. The bonus is a midrange that is one of the best I have heard on anything ever. i have an Auralic Vega DAC and Aries G1 streamer. The speakers I finally settled on are Horning Perikles.


----------



## dadracer2

Oh I forgot too say let me know how you get on with PSVanes please. They would be my pick when I heard Peter Quortrup is big fan and has got them to make his new 4300E valve which is a molybdenum plate 300B and allegedly outstanding.


----------



## jambaj0e

And there I did it, I just bought a pair of Psvane ACME 300B! I will let you know how they'll sound, along with the Psvane CV181-T Mark II


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> And there I did it, I just bought a pair of Psvane ACME 300B! I will let you know how they'll sound, along with the Psvane CV181-T Mark II
> [/QUOTE
> Yes please that would be of considerable interest.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

Probably a silly question but how much of a change in the sound signature do you get when changing the 6SN7 tubes vs the 300B?


----------



## jambaj0e

Relaxasaurus said:


> Probably a silly question but how much of a change in the sound signature do you get when changing the 6SN7 tubes vs the 300B?



You're supposed to be getting a lot more change with the 6SN7, but I think the 300B will help expand the boundaries more


----------



## dadracer2

Relaxasaurus said:


> Probably a silly question but how much of a change in the sound signature do you get when changing the 6SN7 tubes vs the 300B?


I don't know the metrics but it was Andy Kong himself who said changing the 6SN7 made a bigger difference than with the 300B. It may be of course that Cayin think the choice of stock 300B is a bit higher standard than the stock 6SN7? Also you should bear in mind the difference you obtain may not be one you prefer in your system.....


----------



## GU1DO

Guys is this amp is more toward Dark or Warm sound signature ?


----------



## dadracer2

GU1DO said:


> Guys is this amp is more toward Dark or Warm sound signature ?


Not dark at all and only very slightly on the warm side of neutral. It does not have that warm sloppy tube sound. It is neutral at the top and through the mids only in the bass is there that slight warmth. That’s why I think it is such a perfect amp for the HD800S for me anyway.


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> I don't know the metrics but it was Andy Kong himself who said changing the 6SN7 made a bigger difference than with the 300B. It may be of course that Cayin think the choice of stock 300B is a bit higher standard than the stock 6SN7? Also you should bear in mind the difference you obtain may not be one you prefer in your system.....



OH I know it'll change more for the 6SN7. I already tried my 1952 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys, and thought it dampened too much of the treble and mid-treble presence to make it worth while. I like the openness of the stock Shuguangs


----------



## jambaj0e

GU1DO said:


> Guys is this amp is more toward Dark or Warm sound signature ?


Definitely just slight warm past neutral, and with my even more airy when using the balanced XLR on my lcd-3 Fazor


----------



## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> I don't know the metrics but it was Andy Kong himself who said changing the 6SN7 made a bigger difference than with the 300B. It may be of course that Cayin think the choice of stock 300B is a bit higher standard than the stock 6SN7? Also you should bear in mind the difference you obtain may not be one you prefer in your system.....



The 6SN7 is on the upstream of 300B, any changes introduced by rolling the 6SN7 will be "amplified" in subsequent amplification circuit, hence produce a bigger different on sound signature.  The 300B output tube will have a bigger effect on how your headphone will be driven, so it will have  bigger effect on harmonic, soundstage, dynamic etc.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> Yes, plenty loud, at least for me. When using XLR coming from the DAVE (ie, 6 volts), I have the dial at the 2 o'clock to get the headphone to my normal listening volume of 70 dBA SPL RMS.
> 
> I'm been strongly preferring the HA300 over my Pass Labs speaker amp for the Phi TC these days. And also over the DAVE headphone-out (which I've never been crazy about as a headphone amp). I think neutral headphones like the Phi/TC or Utopia really benefit from the tonal richness and space that the HA300 can bring.
> 
> I will say, though, that choice of tubes plays a big role for getting the best synergy with the Phi TC. And more generally, I'm finding tube choice (for both the 6SN7s and 300Bs) to make a bigger difference with the HA300 than any of the previous 4 or 5 tubes amps I've had in the past..



Interested to know what are the tube amps you have used previously?  In general, Single-end Direct-Heated Triode amplifiers are more sensitive to tube rolling.


----------



## llamaluv

Andykong said:


> Interested to know what are the tube amps you have used previously?  In general, Single-end Direct-Heated Triode amplifiers are more sensitive to tube rolling.



Woo WA7/WA7TP, ampsandsound Kenzie Encore Deluxe, Studio Six, and most recently, the Woo WA33.

Only with the WA33 did I notice tube swapping to have an important effect on the resulting sound (but even then, only with the rectifier, at least in my experience). Or maybe I was just caring more about it and paying greater attention as I was laddering up in price, lol.

I'm in agreement that the 6SN7 in the HA-300 plays a very important role. There's a surprising amount of variation to be had based on the choice of 6SN7s. Of what I've tried so far, my favorite is still a pair of Tung Sol GTBs (costing 'only' around $100 for the pair), followed closely by a pair of 1940's Sylvania 6SN7 (ie, pre-GT#), and below that, the Shuguang CV181-z, an RCA pair circa 1950s, and probably in last, the PSVane CV181-Tii Premium Grade.


----------



## jambaj0e

llamaluv said:


> Woo WA7/WA7TP, ampsandsound Kenzie Encore Deluxe, Studio Six, and most recently, the Woo WA33.
> 
> Only with the WA33 did I notice tube swapping to have an important effect on the resulting sound (but even then, only with the rectifier, at least in my experience). Or maybe I was just caring more about it and paying greater attention as I was laddering up in price, lol.
> 
> I'm in agreement that the 6SN7 in the HA-300 plays a very important role. There's a surprising amount of variation to be had based on the choice of 6SN7s. Of what I've tried so far, my favorite is still a pair of Tung Sol GTBs (costing 'only' around $100 for the pair), followed closely by a pair of 1940's Sylvania 6SN7 (ie, pre-GT#), and below that, the Shuguang CV181-z, an RCA pair circa 1950s, and probably in last, the PSVane CV181-Tii Premium Grade.



OH hah, the Psvane CV181-T II is the one I just ordered. Well, I hope it'll sound better than the still good stock Shuguangs. I have the 1952 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys, but I thought it dampened the treble too much. Would love to try the 6F8G Tungsol Black Glass Round Plate, though!


----------



## llamaluv

jambaj0e said:


> OH hah, the Psvane CV181-T II is the one I just ordered. Well, I hope it'll sound better than the still good stock Shuguangs. I have the 1952 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys, but I thought it dampened the treble too much. Would love to try the 6F8G Tungsol Black Glass Round Plate, though!


I liked them a lot when I used them in a Freya preamp feeding my solid state speaker amp into the RAAL SR1a. But in the HA-300 into my Phi TC's, they're overly warm and un-spacious. It leaves me a little puzzled, so I'll be interested to find out how you like them. Hopefully you'll like them better...


----------



## jambaj0e

llamaluv said:


> I liked them a lot when I used them in a Freya preamp feeding my solid state speaker amp into the RAAL SR1a. But in the HA-300 into my Phi TC's, they're overly warm and un-spacious. It leaves me a little puzzled, so I'll be interested to find out how you like them. Hopefully you'll like them better...



Mmm, that's what I'd be worried about, losing the soundstage and large sound I'm enjoying right now on the HA-300. I actually felt the space closing in a bit with the Bad Boys and my already-somewhat-dark LCD-3 Fazor.


----------



## GU1DO (Mar 14, 2020)

dadracer2 said:


> Not dark at all and only very slightly on the warm side of neutral. It does not have that warm sloppy tube sound. It is neutral at the top and through the mids only in the bass is there that slight warmth. That’s why I think it is such a perfect amp for the HD800S for me anyway.


Thank you


llamaluv said:


> Woo WA7/WA7TP, ampsandsound Kenzie Encore Deluxe, Studio Six, and most recently, the Woo WA33
> 
> Only with the WA33 did I notice tube swapping to have an important effect on the resulting sound (but even then, only with the rectifier, at least in my experience). Or maybe I was just caring more about it and paying greater attention as I was laddering up in price, lol.
> 
> I'm in agreement that the 6SN7 in the HA-300 plays a very important role. There's a surprising amount of variation to be had based on the choice of 6SN7s. Of what I've tried so far, my favorite is still a pair of Tung Sol GTBs (costing 'only' around $100 for the pair), followed closely by a pair of 1940's Sylvania 6SN7 (ie, pre-GT#), and below that, the Shuguang CV181-z, an RCA pair circa 1950s, and probably in last, the PSVane CV181-Tii Premium Grade.


"Woo WA7/WA7TP, ampsandsound Kenzie Encore Deluxe, Studio Six, and most recently, the Woo WA33"
No wonder , all these amps use Alps Pot (except WA7/WA7TP not sure) which has strong character that compete withe the amp signature , i dismissed a lot of amps just because it use this potentiometer , thankfully Cayin dont use this pot with HA6A and the HA300


----------



## llamaluv

GU1DO said:


> No wonder , all these amps use Alps Pot (except WA7/WA7TP not sure) which has strong character that compete withe the amp signature , i dismissed a lot of amps just because it use this potentiometer , thankfully Cayin dont use this pot with HA6A and the HA300


That's interesting, I've never had to opportunity to compare different volume pots in an amp before, so I've never considered how big of a factor the choice of pot could be.

Out of curiosity, are there any pots that you especially prefer?


----------



## llamaluv

There've been no reports of anyone swapping out the stock RCA NOS rectifiers.

Is there any good reason for someone (me in this case!) not to give it a try, just as a test? A cursory Google search suggests it shouldn't be too difficult to source a quad of Sylvanias for cheap...


----------



## GU1DO

llamaluv said:


> That's interesting, I've never had to opportunity to compare different volume pots in an amp before, so I've never considered how big of a factor the choice of pot could be.
> 
> Out of curiosity, are there any pots that you especially prefer?


Audio-GD volume control is the best to my ears , very transparent though its amps need quality clean power otherwise it will sound mid-fi


----------



## jambaj0e (Mar 17, 2020)

New tubes alert! So I got the Psvane CV181-T Mark II to replace the stock Shuguang WE6SN7, which I do really, really like, but I want even more. My system is as follows:

Custom Windows 10 PC to iFi Nano iUSB3.0 (usb conditioner) to Chord Qutest DAC to Cayin HA-300 amp to Audeze LCD-3 Fazor.

So after about 3 hours, here's what I notice about the CV181 vs Shuguang.

The Shuguang has really nice soundstage and excellent separation, with a lot of energy and musicality. At times, though the mid-treble vocal can get somewhat grainy. I also tend to use EQ to add some body and bottom end to the bass, which although they're nicely responsive and tight, they can be slightly lean with certain instruments like bass guitar. There's impact across the range, and transients are nice and fast. For stock tubes, these are excellent, and actually, when I tried my pair of 1952 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boys, I switched back to the Shuguangs since the Bad Boys dampened the treble a bit too much in order to get a little more bass, which wasn't much.



Moving to the Psvane CV181-T mkII, wow, right away, these sounded beautiful! Just a tad darker, sweeter, and warmer than the Shuguang, but no less musical and energetic.If anything, there's a sense of "roundness" to the notes, a little more "tubey" than the fairly neutral Shuguang, and definitely more body and slam in the mid-bass and bass. I didn't have to EQ anymore. The treble is slightly smoothen out, but not dampened, meaning I still get nice crisp cymbals and anything high that hits, but vocals and wind/string instruments have a smoother, sweeter high melody.

This is especially great for jazz and classical/soundtrack, but works well for pop, rock, EDM, and yes, rap. The only fault so far that I found is if the mid to mid-treble is densely layered, it can get a little too dense. Also, the mid-vocal can be a little too forward if it's recorded forward. It almost takes over too much at times, but, luckily this doesn't happen too often. I'm hoping these two things will settle down as I continue to burn in these tubes.



Packaging-wise, if you get the Matched Pair Premium Grade from Amazon, you'll get it in a nice case. I ordered it on Monday March 9, it was shipped from Hong Kong, and it arrived today on March 16. Surprising, considering the craziness we're all dealing with the Coronavirus.






Only thing I'm a bit disappointed is that the left tube has some uneven application of the grey coating at its bottom, and some of the gold coating is also rubbed off



Here is how it looks compared to the stock tube



And installed in my HA-300





Music listened on Amazon Music HD (via Jriver in order to bypass Windows 10's upscaling) mostly in UltraHD (24-bit 48Khz to 192Khz) and some in HD (16-bit 44.Khz)


Selena Gomez - Lose You to Love Me (Amazing test for low, powerful piano, great vocals, low distinct bass pluck, etc)
Friday Night Plans - Plastic Love (that dark electronic groove)
Jeff Buckley - Hallelujah (that vocal and guitar!)
Heize feat. Dean - And July
Heize feat. Dean - Shut Up and Groove (Has this fast, rhythmic bass groove and just great vocals)
Common - Resurrection
Polo & Pan - Bakara (An audiophile dream with amazing percussive rhythm and so much to listen and pick out. One of my favorites)
Fleetwood Mac - Dreams
Fleetwood Mac - The Chain
Monty Alexander - Sweet Georgia Brown (really tests the speed, dynamic, separation, and transient of a system. Fast and complex!)
The Yuri Honing Trio - Walking on the Moon
Whitney Houston - I Have Nothing
Mariah Carey - Fourth of July
Arne Domnerus - Limehouse Blues (live)
Damien Rice - My Favorite Faded Fantasy
Taylor Swift - Delicate
Ariana Grande - Thank You Next
Ariana Grande - Break Up with Your Girlfriend, I'm Bored
Missy Elliot - Work It
Lizzo - Good as Hell
Queen - Under Pressure (remastered)
Ben Webster - Ben's Blues
M83 - Outro
Santana feat Michelle Branch - The Game of Love
Rebecca Pidgeon - Spanish Harlem
Sara K - If I Could Sing Your Blues
The Fred Hersh Trio - Played Twice
Johnny Frigo - I Love Paris
Paquito D'Rivera - Havana Cafe
Bela Banfalvi & Antoino Vivaldi - The Four Seasons "Summer" III. Presto
Jung Jaiel (Parasite Soundtrack) - The Belt of Faith (that amazing montage from the film!)
Heize - But, I am Your Buddy
Lisa Batiashvili - Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto in D Major 1. Allegro moderato


Oh, within a few days, I'm also going to receive a matched pair of Psvane ACME 300b, which is reported to perform almost as well as vintage Western Electric 300bs! If anything, that should further extend the lovely sound from the Psvane CV181-T mark II.


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> New tubes alert! So I got the Psvane CV181-T Mark II to replace the stock Shuguang WE6SN7, which I do really, really like, but I want even more. My system is as follows:
> 
> Custom Windows 10 PC to iFi Nano iUSB3.0 (usb conditioner) to Chord Qutest DAC to Cayin HA-300 amp to Audeze LCD-3 Fazor.
> 
> ...


Nice write up. Please let us know how the sound changes/improves over the next few days as the new CV181 valves settle in. Good luck with the Acme 300b.


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> Nice write up. Please let us know how the sound changes/improves over the next few days as the new CV181 valves settle in. Good luck with the Acme 300b.



Yes, will do. I'll put up another post once I got a good day in with the ACME 300b, too


----------



## Jarle

jambaj0e said:


> New tubes alert! So I got the Psvane CV181-T Mark II to replace the stock Shuguang WE6SN7, which I do really, really like, but I want even more. My system is as follows:
> 
> Custom Windows 10 PC to iFi Nano iUSB3.0 (usb conditioner) to Chord Qutest DAC to Cayin HA-300 amp to Audeze LCD-3 Fazor.
> 
> ...


Tanks for sharing. Looking forward to part 2.


----------



## Lucky87

Hey guys I was wondering if anyone can comment on the HA-300 vs the Feliks Euforia I am looking to move up to the next level? Also where you purchased yours in the US?  Thanks


----------



## dadracer2

Lucky87 said:


> Hey guys I was wondering if anyone can comment on the HA-300 vs the Feliks Euforia I am looking to move up to the next level? Also where you purchased yours in the US?  Thanks


I haven't compared them directly but did use a Feliks Euforia to compare my own HD800S to a pair of the dealers Meze Empyreans in a quiet room  at their store. The Feliks is very good indeed and for the money is fantastic value. When I went home and tried the same music on my HA300 I preferred it by a good margin to be honest. Have you considered the new Cayin  HA6A which I think is priced at about the same as the Feliks?


----------



## Lucky87 (Mar 18, 2020)

dadracer2 said:


> I haven't compared them directly but did use a Feliks Euforia to compare my own HD800S to a pair of the dealers Meze Empyreans in a quiet room  at their store. The Feliks is very good indeed and for the money is fantastic value. When I went home and tried the same music on my HA300 I preferred it by a good margin to be honest. Have you considered the new Cayin  HA6A which I think is priced at about the same as the Feliks?


Yeah I've been eyeing both to be honest but as of now I'm using 4 x KT88 Gold Lion for a Quad setup which sounds awesome.. But I'm interested in the TOTL at the moment which is HA-300,  Donald North Amps, or Eddie Current. But I must say the HA-300 best looking..


----------



## dadracer2

Lucky87 said:


> Yeah I've been eyeing both to be honest but as of now I'm using 4 x KT88 Gold Lion for a Quad setup which sounds awesome.. But I'm interested in the TOTL at the moment which is HA-300,  Donald North Amps, or Eddie Current. But I must say the HA-300 best looking..


Well I'm not in the US so the DNA and EC are almost non existent over here. I guess you should try them out for yourself and as you will be spending a not inconsiderable sum of money. The bonus of the Cayin is that you can also use it to power a pair of speakers (which I do) so that made it an easy choice for me over a lot of other options.


----------



## jambaj0e

Lucky87 said:


> Hey guys I was wondering if anyone can comment on the HA-300 vs the Feliks Euforia I am looking to move up to the next level? Also where you purchased yours in the US?  Thanks



I didn't hear the Feliks vs the HA-300, but I did hear the Feliks vs the PrimaLuna Prologue with my LCD-3, and the PrimaLuna is much more dynamic than the Feliks. It also has a much better treble and bass extension, and just a better amp overall.

The PrimaIuna's more comparable to the HA-300, so based on what I heard, I'd put the HA-300 first, then PrimaLuna right below it but not by far, then the Feliks Euforia


----------



## jambaj0e (Mar 18, 2020)

Lucky87 said:


> Yeah I've been eyeing both to be honest but as of now I'm using 4 x KT88 Gold Lion for a Quad setup which sounds awesome.. But I'm interested in the TOTL at the moment which is HA-300,  Donald North Amps, or Eddie Current. But I must say the HA-300 best looking..



I have listened to all three, the HA-300, DNA Stellaris, and Eddie Current Studio Jr. The HA-300 I think is the most versatile and most musical, with just a bit of warmth and lots of soundstage and enough slam on bass and treble extension. The DNA Stellaris with its 2A3 tubes is a little to clinical to me. I lost a lot of the lusciousness that I like from my Audeze LCD-3. It's clean, but not musical enough. The Eddie Current is very good tubey amp that's a bit on the relaxed side. It's pretty warm, warmer than the HA-300, but I don't think it's as dynamic.

Since I've changed the tubes on my HA-300, it has only gotten better, too. It really is a chameleon, a versatile, sweet sounding dynamic 300b SET tube amp.  And aesthetic-wise, it's by far the best looking amp, too. It actually looks like it costs thousands of dollars, while the DNA and Eddie Current, while amazingly well-built, do look slightly more DIY garage.


----------



## jambaj0e (Mar 19, 2020)

So I just got my new Psvane ACME 300b for my Cayin HA-300 just a few days after I got the new Psvane CV181-T II. The Acme replaced the JJ Full Music 300b and the CV181 replaced Shuguang WE6SN7. My headphone is the Audeze LCD-3 with source coming from a Windows 10 desktop to iFi Nano iUSB3.0 to Chord Qutest DAC.

I bought it on March 12th from China-hifi-Audio.com and it arrived at my door on March 18th. Pretty amazing, considering all the lockdown that's happening because of Coronavirus.

So first of all to recap, when I only rolled the CV181-T II, from what was already an excellent 300B SET amp in stock form, I immediately gained more body and slam in the bass, smooth treble extension, beautiful vocals, and larger soundstage. There was a beautiful "roundness", a tube sound that's well articulated, but smooth with great energy and musicality.

The stock tube sometimes give a bit of a shoutiness in the mid-treble register of female vocals when belting, but not so with the CV181. Only small complaint I have with it is that sometimes the mid can get a little dense if there's a lot going on, but otherwise, instrument separation is well done.



Today, I rolled the ACME 300b, and what I got was an even bigger soundstage and incredible clarity and resolution. I mean, every single instruments and vocals are very distinct and separation everywhere. It's if everything before was slightly foggy and I never knew that. Like breathing air in the middle of National Park vs the city. All of this seems effortless.

But there is one problem. I feel that the midbass lost some of its weight and fullness. The Bass is a bit leaner but tight and not as slamming either. So my question is this. How will my ACME 300bs sound after 50-100-200 hours of burning? Will I expect more heft in the bass or I'd have to find a different way to add it, like warmer cables (all of my cables are Morrow Audio) or adding the Schiit Loki (which is actually on its way)?

I really hope I can get some of that meaty bass-midbass that I had with the stock JJ Full Music 300b tubes, because everything else so far is perfect!



Here are some closeups of both my new Psvane tubes.





Here's how the Psvane ACME 300b and Psvane CV181-T II look next to the stock tubes.


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> So I just got my new Psvane ACME 300b for my Cayin HA-300 just a few days after I got the new Psvane CV181-T II. The Acme replaced the JJ Full Music 300b and the CV181 replaced Shuguang WE6SN7. My headphone is the Audeze LCD-3 with source coming from a Windows 10 desktop to iFi Nano iUSB3.0 to Chord Qutest DAC.
> 
> I bought it on March 12th from China-hifi-Audio.com and it arrived at my door on March 18th. Pretty amazing, considering all the lockdown that's happening because of Coronavirus.
> 
> ...


Maybe see how things are after a few days of running in. I read a review recently where the guy reckoned the sound only got better after a couple of hundred hours!


----------



## Lucky87

Thank you all for your input on the HA300 I appreciate it.


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## jambaj0e (Mar 23, 2020)

dadracer2 said:


> Maybe see how things are after a few days of running in. I read a review recently where the guy reckoned the sound only got better after a couple of hundred hours!



Actually, after an overnight pink noise burn in, the bass definitely has started to deepen. Mid-bass is starting to get more body as well. I'm getting excited to see how this'll be by next week!


----------



## dadracer2

How is the burn in going?
In the meantime here is a picture of the speakers I got (as mentioned above) which seem to be a near perfect match for the HA300 (other 300B DHT amps are available).


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> How is the burn in going?
> In the meantime here is a picture of the speakers I got (as mentioned above) which seem to be a near perfect match for the HA300 (other 300B DHT amps are available).



It was getting better, then it got worse, but now it's getting better again, lol. Seems like you really have to put in the 200 hours on the Psvane, as people have said elsewhere. I think I'm 80-100 hours in?

Which speakers are those again?


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> It was getting better, then it got worse, but now it's getting better again, lol. Seems like you really have to put in the 200 hours on the Psvane, as people have said elsewhere. I think I'm 80-100 hours in?
> 
> Which speakers are those again?


Good work and I think I saw the same article. They are the Horning Perikles, but now out of date and replaced with the Horning Aristoteles (which I would not be able to afford!).


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> Good work and I think I saw the same article. They are the Horning Perikles, but now out of date and replaced with the Horning Aristoteles (which I would not be able to afford!).



Right now after about 130 hours, they sound fantastic! I had a Schiit Loki for tone control between 50-90 hours, to add a bit more on the bass, but after 100 hours in, man, I don't need that. The bass is just about right, the soundstage is still huge and precise, and now I have more body in the mids and mid-bass without losing the resolution in the treble. Excellent tubes, even more now that I've paired it with matched pair of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole bad boys


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## jambaj0e (Apr 21, 2020)

@Andykong ,one thing about the HA-300's description that I still don't understand is how can it be a "push-pull" amp as described by Cayin when it clearly only has one output tube per channel? I thought you need two output tubes per channel to do push-pull? Yet, the also call it a "Single End Triode (S.E.T.) Class A tube amplifier"

" We have selected 6SN7 to pair with 300B for a push-pull signal amplification. This is a very familiar Class A single-ended amplification design that Cayin has extensive experience with in past 20 years."

"The tube circuit is developed around the 300B DHT (Direct-Heated Triode) tube, aka the Dream tube of audiophile and tube enthusiasts, and we use 6SN7 as the first stage of our push-pull circuit. We believe single-end approach will bring out the charm of the tubes and it is more effective and feasible in high-end tube amplifier as we have minimized the tube matching requirements."

So is the signal sinewave form being handled for the entire 360 degrees of the AC signal cycle like shown below?





because I don't see how you can have push-pull without two output tubes like shown below


----------



## Maxx134

jambaj0e said:


> @Andykong ,one thing about the HA-300's description that I still don't understand is how can it be a "push-pull" amp as described by Cayin when it clearly only has one output tube per channel? I thought you need two output tubes per channel to do push-pull? Yet, the also call it a "Single End Triode (S.E.T.) Class A tube amplifier"
> 
> " We have selected 6SN7 to pair with 300B for a push-pull signal amplification. This is a very familiar Class A single-ended amplification design that Cayin has extensive experience with in past 20 years."
> 
> ...


Your missing the point that the driver tubes have two triodes inside, to do the push/pull to the 300b, although I haven't looked into it.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Have done a little research on this amp today and I am flabbergasted at the asking price here in the UK, £5000!!


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## Maxx134 (Apr 21, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> Right now after about 130 hours, they sound fantastic! I had a Schiit Loki for tone control between 50-90 hours, to add a bit more on the bass, but after 100 hours in, man, I don't need that. The bass is just about right, the soundstage is still huge and precise, and now I have more body in the mids and mid-bass without losing the resolution in the treble. Excellent tubes, even more now that I've paired it with matched pair of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole bad boys


So What are your output tubes again?




alvin sawdust said:


> Have done a little research on this amp today and I am flabbergasted at the asking price here in the UK, £5000!!


----------



## jambaj0e

Maxx134 said:


> Your missing the point that the driver tubes have two triodes inside, to do the push/pull to the 300b, although I haven't looked into it.



Mm, I don't think that's it. I only hear about push-pull Vs Single ended in relation to the power tubes, not driver tubes.


----------



## jambaj0e

Maxx134 said:


> So What are your output tubes again?


 

PSVANE Acme Supreme 300b tubes


----------



## dadracer2

alvin sawdust said:


> Have done a little research on this amp today and I am flabbergasted at the asking price here in the UK, £5000!!


In a good way?


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> Right now after about 130 hours, they sound fantastic! I had a Schiit Loki for tone control between 50-90 hours, to add a bit more on the bass, but after 100 hours in, man, I don't need that. The bass is just about right, the soundstage is still huge and precise, and now I have more body in the mids and mid-bass without losing the resolution in the treble. Excellent tubes, even more now that I've paired it with matched pair of 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT 3-hole bad boys


Great stuff. I wonder if anyone will try out the Audio Note 4300E which are made for AN by PSVane.


----------



## alvin sawdust

dadracer2 said:


> In a good way?


No


----------



## dadracer2

alvin sawdust said:


> No


Oh ok. I think that it is good value for what is effectively a 300B powered integrated amp that also has balanced headphone connectivity. You would pay a whole lot more for something similar made in the UK or USA to be fair. Its not cheap of course but it is excellent. What do you feel is reasonable?


----------



## alvin sawdust

dadracer2 said:


> Oh ok. I think that it is good value for what is effectively a 300B powered integrated amp that also has balanced headphone connectivity. You would pay a whole lot more for something similar made in the UK or USA to be fair. Its not cheap of course but it is excellent. What do you feel is reasonable?


It's way higher than what you would pay in the States, would be great if you can explain to me why this is?


----------



## alvin sawdust

One example: https://shop.musicteck.com/products...tube-headphone-amplifer?variant=7283201245246


----------



## alvin sawdust

I'm not saying the amp is expensive per se, just in comparison to the price asked here in Blighty.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

alvin sawdust said:


> I'm not saying the amp is expensive per se, just in comparison to the price asked here in Blighty.


Couldn't you buy it from Musicteck and have it shipped to the UK? Would VAT kick in and make it that much more? Sorry, not sure how it works


----------



## ken6217

alvin sawdust said:


> I'm not saying the amp is expensive per se, just in comparison to the price asked here in Blighty.



I don’t understand what’s so difficult to understand here? $4000 in US and $6200 in Britain. That should be checked out as it makes no sense. Maybe they put Coronavirus tax on it.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Relaxasaurus said:


> Couldn't you buy it from Musicteck and have it shipped to the UK? Would VAT kick in and make it that much more? Sorry, not sure how it works


Yes it's an option, not sure if they can supply 230v versions but overall it would probably be a saving.
As it is I'm looking at the Ampsandsound Bigger Ben.


----------



## ken6217

Why don’t you just email Cayin customer service and ask if there’s a mistake because it doesn’t make any sense that the difference in price would be so great, let alone a difference at all.


----------



## alvin sawdust

ken6217 said:


> Why don’t you just email Cayin customer service and ask if there’s a mistake because it doesn’t make any sense that the difference in price would be so great, let alone a difference at all.


Have just done so, lets see what they say.


----------



## ken6217

alvin sawdust said:


> Have just done so, lets see what they say.



They should get back to you quickly. I found their customer service to be excellent.


----------



## dadracer2

alvin sawdust said:


> I'm not saying the amp is expensive per se, just in comparison to the price asked here in Blighty.


It may be partly down to currency exchange rates (CNY to $US or £GBP) and then don't forget prices in the US are quoted without tax whereas in UK (and EU) the prices include VAT or local taxes. There will always be a discrepancy though unless it is products made in the UK or EU in which case they can be better priced than the US. I'm not excusing this just how it is has been for as long as I can remember.  Its not just hifi of course look at cars and what you buy a Ford Mustang for example in the US vs UK.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Cayin got back to me and their view is that the dealer has the freedom to set the price.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

alvin sawdust said:


> Cayin got back to me and their view is that the dealer has the freedom to set the price.


Your best bet is to reach out to the dealer and ask about any deals or specials they may have for such a pricey amp. Who knows, they may have a B-stock unit you can take off their hands.


----------



## ken6217

Usually the conversion rate is relevant. If something cost $4000 in the United States, it’s the same value in England in pounds. I. Any speak for VAT.


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## Articnoise (Apr 30, 2020)

alvin sawdust said:


> Yes it's an option, not sure if they can supply 230v versions but overall it would probably be a saving.
> As it is I'm looking at the Ampsandsound Bigger Ben.



You can buy it (230V) from Sweden for 5000 Swedish kronor.

https://audioconcept.se/product/cayin-ha-300/

Edit: It should of course be 50 000 Swedish kronor = 4700 Euro.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Relaxasaurus said:


> Your best bet is to reach out to the dealer and ask about any deals or specials they may have for such a pricey amp. Who knows, they may have a B-stock unit you can take off their hands.


I have been emailing the UK dealer and he is offering a fairly sweet discount, very tempting


----------



## alvin sawdust

Is anyone here using or tried the zmf verite with this amp?


----------



## jambaj0e

alvin sawdust said:


> Is anyone here using or tried the zmf verite with this amp?



I haven't, but if anyone in Los Angeles have a higher end headphones like ZMF, Abyss, Focal, Final, etc., once the lockdown is removed, I'm inviting you all to listen on my Ha-300


----------



## Relaxasaurus

jambaj0e said:


> I haven't, but if anyone in Los Angeles have a higher end headphones like ZMF, Abyss, Focal, Final, etc., once the lockdown is removed, I'm inviting you all to listen on my Ha-300


Can you ship it to NYC so us east coasters can check it out?


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## westyjeff (Apr 30, 2020)

I have ZMF Verite C and Aeolus, both sound sublime on my HA 300.


----------



## jambaj0e

Relaxasaurus said:


> Can you ship it to NYC so us east coasters can check it out?



Oh contact Andy at Musicteck in NY. I actually got my HA-300 from there and he shipped it to Los Angeles!


----------



## Relaxasaurus

jambaj0e said:


> Oh contact Andy at Musicteck in NY. I actually got my HA-300 from there and he shipped it to Los Angeles!


Hah I actually did and he has a B-stock unit available that he'd be willing to let me review but it needed to be repaired first. Another day perhaps!


----------



## jambaj0e

Relaxasaurus said:


> Hah I actually did and he has a B-stock unit available that he'd be willing to let me review but it needed to be repaired first. Another day perhaps!



Oh, what did he say is wrong with them?


----------



## Relaxasaurus

jambaj0e said:


> Oh, what did he say is wrong with them?


I forget exactly but as I recall it had some hum issues.


----------



## ken6217

No way I’d buy someone else’s problem. Even if they fix it.


----------



## jambaj0e

Relaxasaurus said:


> I forget exactly but as I recall it had some hum issues.



Interesting. With the stock tubes and the other tubes I've used on my HA-300, I haven't had a hum issue. I even tested with putting the volume all the way to 100% without any music playing to see if there are any hum or noise. Dead silent =D


----------



## jambaj0e

Video of the Vu right channel going crazy!

Help! My right channel is going crazy! I've been getting a small crackle off and on in the last 2 weeks, but tonight was the worst. The right channel just crackled and pop at 100% on the VU. Meter. I disconnected the RCA cable and it kept on doing this. Is this an amp issue, power tube or driver tube issue?


----------



## alvin sawdust

jambaj0e said:


> Video of the Vu right channel going crazy!
> 
> Help! My right channel is going crazy! I've been getting a small crackle off and on in the last 2 weeks, but tonight was the worst. The right channel just crackled and pop at 100% on the VU. Meter. I disconnected the RCA cable and it kept on doing this. Is this an amp issue, power tube or driver tube issue?


Sounds like a tube gone bad or not seated properly.


----------



## jambaj0e

Ugh eff me, so after this craziness and some patience to allow the amp to cool down in between tube swapping, it seems that the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boys tube were the source of the crackling. I swapped out the Psvane ACME 300b with the stock TJ Full Music 300b and that decreased the crackling to minimal levels, but it was there.

Once I replaced those Sylvanias with my new stock Psvane CV-181t mkII, everything is dead silent again. Swapped the TJ Full Music 300b with the Psvane ACME 300b and it's still dead silent. 

Will monitor this, hopefully this will NOT happen again, especially now that my 300b and 6SN7 tubes are new stocks.


----------



## Relaxasaurus

jambaj0e said:


> Ugh eff me, so after this craziness and some patience to allow the amp to cool down in between tube swapping, it seems that the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boys tube were the source of the crackling. I swapped out the Psvane ACME 300b with the stock TJ Full Music 300b and that decreased the crackling to minimal levels, but it was there.
> 
> Once I replaced those Sylvanias with my new stock Psvane CV-181t mkII, everything is dead silent again. Swapped the TJ Full Music 300b with the Psvane ACME 300b and it's still dead silent.
> 
> Will monitor this, hopefully this will NOT happen again, especially now that my 300b and 6SN7 tubes are new stocks.


So frustrating. Glad to hear you most likely found the source of the problem. Do you have another amp that you can test the tubes out with to make sure they were they were the culprit?


----------



## jambaj0e

Relaxasaurus said:


> So frustrating. Glad to hear you most likely found the source of the problem. Do you have another amp that you can test the tubes out with to make sure they were they were the culprit?



I don't, but I suppose I can plug them back into my amp again. I'm just worried if it will mess them up or not =\


----------



## alvin sawdust

jambaj0e said:


> I don't, but I suppose I can plug them back into my amp again. I'm just worried if it will mess them up or not =\


Also check if the tube pins need cleaning.


----------



## jambaj0e

alvin sawdust said:


> Also check if the tube pins need cleaning.



This is the tube that was causing me trouble


----------



## jambaj0e

And here's matched pair


----------



## jambaj0e

UPDATE: Ok, now I'm hearing the same problematic tube causing the small pulse crackling again, this time in the left channel since I swapped them around on this insertion to eliminate the amp right channel as the problem.  So I guess there is something bad with this tube.


----------



## alvin sawdust

jambaj0e said:


> UPDATE: Ok, now I'm hearing the same problematic tube causing the small pulse crackling again, this time in the left channel since I swapped them around on this insertion to eliminate the amp right channel as the problem.  So I guess there is something bad with this tube.


I would definitely clean the pins with some deoxit just to rule that out.


----------



## jambaj0e

alvin sawdust said:


> I would definitely clean the pins with some deoxit just to rule that out.



I think I want to have someone else take a look at them before plugging them in. I'd hate to lose a $4000 amp over a $160 tube =(


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## jambaj0e (May 11, 2020)

This is what someone from the Tube Rollers and Tube Amps Facebook Group said when I posted the stock interior photo of the HA-300 amp. @Andykong any thoughts on this?

"Thanks, I can see that the first half of the 6sn7 is directly coupled to the second gain stage. Now this could be why your older 6sn7 is suffering. Since its directly coupled the cathode may be elevated to a voltage that exceeds the heater to cathode voltage rating. This is around 100Vdc. When the cathode to heater insulation starts to break down, you get random pops and clicks and swirly noises, sometimes like water."

I asked him if this is a bad design, and here's his answer:

"Bad design, the usual trick is to elevate the heater voltage by connecting it to a voltage closer to whatever the cathode is sitting at. Now the designers may have done that, however since the other cathode is sitting at a much lower voltage and is close to zero, they may have elevated it to somewhere in the middle, say 50V. I'm unable to answer this just by looking at the photos."


----------



## thomaskong78 (May 11, 2020)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-1956-RCA-6SN7GT-Amp-Tubes-Matched-voice-of-music-VM-Strong-Pair/264691958675?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I bought this as  reserve 6sn7 for Freya which use quad 6sn7.

After using KR vt231, I switched to this pair. It sounds clean and transparent with nice decays.

It sound better than " Bad boy" which cost me 10 times more.


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## jambaj0e (May 11, 2020)

Crap, I heard a bit of shuffling noise after listening to music and with the new tubes. It was like this intermittently for maybe a minute but since then has not happened. I kept my Audeze LCD-3 headphones on for another 10 minute and it's silent. I plugged in the more sensitive ATH M50 and it is still silent.


----------



## dpump

You will often get random static noises from a new tube or one that hasn't been used in a long time. Give it some time and see if the noise reduces or goes away. Another thing to be aware of is that 6SN7GT tubes have a lower voltage rating than 6SN7GTB tubes and this could be why you started getting noise on your 6SN7GT tubes. Something similar happened to me when using 6SN7GT tubes in my microZOTL. The microZOTL actually calls for GTB tubes because of the higher voltage that is used on the tube and cautions that using the older 6SN7GT may lead to problems. Your amp, due to its design, may be putting too much voltage on the 6SN7GT. Your newer design tubes are probably designed for higher voltage like the 6SN7GTB and thus won't 'break down' if subjected to a higher voltage.


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## jambaj0e (May 11, 2020)

dpump said:


> You will often get random static noises from a new tube or one that hasn't been used in a long time. Give it some time and see if the noise reduces or goes away. Another thing to be aware of is that 6SN7GT tubes have a lower voltage rating than 6SN7GTB tubes and this could be why you started getting noise on your 6SN7GT tubes. Something similar happened to me when using 6SN7GT tubes in my microZOTL. The microZOTL actually calls for GTB tubes because of the higher voltage that is used on the tube and cautions that using the older 6SN7GT may lead to problems. Your amp, due to its design, may be putting too much voltage on the 6SN7GT. Your newer design tubes are probably designed for higher voltage like the 6SN7GTB and thus won't 'break down' if subjected to a higher voltage.



Hmm, the manual does say it's fine for 6SN7GT, but maybe modern Chinese tubes like Shuguang (comes with that stock) or the Psvane CV181-T MkII are easier to work with voltage wise.

At least other than that first initial listen on the CV181-T that has been sitting in the drawer for about a couple of weeks since I briefly rolled them in to have a listen, they haven't made a strange sound. This is 5 hours in now.


----------



## Maxx134 (May 19, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> UPDATE: Ok, now I'm hearing the same problematic tube causing the small pulse crackling again, this time in the left channel since I swapped them around on this insertion to eliminate the amp right channel as the problem.  So I guess there is something bad with this tube.



Yep, that's how tubes die...
Hisss, snap, crackle, pop!
Toss the damn tube...
Count your blessings you didn't mess up the amp.


----------



## jambaj0e (May 19, 2020)

Maxx134 said:


> Yep, that's how tubes die...
> Hisss, snap, crackle, pop!
> Toss the damn tube...
> Count your blessings you didn't mess up the amp.



Yeah, so far it's back to normal with my Psvane CV-181T mkII instead of those Sylvanias. It's really too bad because I do like the sonic qualities of those Bad Boys. But yea, I'm so glad my amp is ok.

Oh! I also upgraded my DAC! I now have the Hugo TT2 instead of the Qutest!


----------



## jambaj0e

Do you guys prefer to run RCA or XLR cable into your HA-300? I could've sworn I read that the RCA is more transparent/more direct than XLR for the HA-300


----------



## westyjeff

Both sound great, I could not tell the difference.


----------



## jambaj0e

Anyone running speakers off their speaker taps. My Hugo TT2 is outputting 2.5 RMVS to the HA-300, and I got the Klipsch RP-600m speakers, but I still have to put volume to about 65-75% for decent volume (not loud) even though it says its 96dB. I just replaced it with the Tekton Lore Reference because I have read the RP-600m is more like a 90dB. Surprisingly, even though the Lore Reference is rated 96db, it is a bit quieter than the RP-600m. I had to bring up the line out voltage to 3 RVMS from the Hugo TT2 to match the volume, and I still am listening around 60-75% for decent, not loud sound.

Are the speaker taps on the HA-300 truly 8wpc, and will I harm the amp or the tubes if I'm running close to 65-75% volume at 3V line in?


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> Anyone running speakers off their speaker taps. My Hugo TT2 is outputting 2.5 RMVS to the HA-300, and I got the Klipsch RP-600m speakers, but I still have to put volume to about 65-75% for decent volume (not loud) even though it says its 96dB. I just replaced it with the Tekton Lore Reference because I have read the RP-600m is more like a 90dB. Surprisingly, even though the Lore Reference is rated 96db, it is a bit quieter than the RP-600m. I had to bring up the line out voltage to 3 RVMS from the Hugo TT2 to match the volume, and I still am listening around 60-75% for decent, not loud sound.
> 
> Are the speaker taps on the HA-300 truly 8wpc, and will I harm the amp or the tubes if I'm running close to 65-75% volume at 3V line in?


Yes I am and yes I believe it is a real 8 watts per channel. What you must not believe is that Klipsch number. If they say 96 db you can subtract 3-4 db to get the real number in your set up. I tried a couple of sets of speakers with 92 and 95 db (allegedly) and like you was at 3 o'clock on the volume to get enough sound. Finally my dealer got hold of a pair of pre owned Horning speakers which are a real 96 db and they are ideal. So if you can find some speakers that are really 96 db you will be fine as long as your listening room isn't massive. It looks as though you are in the USA so you will have a good choice of speakers and which we don't get in Europe. If you are determined to have Klipsch speakers then look at their Heritage range and the Heresy 3 or 4 which have 99 db according to their brochure but in reality will be 95/96 so should be suitable and if you like that Klipsch sound.

Oh and the other thing about Klipsch is that their impedance curve can make them trickier to drive as they are certainly not 8 ohm nominal as per their spec sheet but nearer 5 or 6 ohm nominal and so compounds their reduced efficiency rating (on paper). You ideally need a speaker which stays above 8 ohm for as much of their output as possible. Please don't think I am disparaging about the Klipsch speakers as I like them quite a lot, but they seem to consistently over state the spec on their speakers. 

Now although I have a medium to large lounge and my volume control is set between 12 and 1 o'clock to be sufficiently loud enough with the Hornings.

Hope that helps!


----------



## jambaj0e (May 23, 2020)

dadracer2 said:


> Yes I am and yes I believe it is a real 8 watts per channel. What you must not believe is that Klipsch number. If they say 96 db you can subtract 3-4 db to get the real number in your set up. I tried a couple of sets of speakers with 92 and 95 db (allegedly) and like you was at 3 o'clock on the volume to get enough sound. Finally my dealer got hold of a pair of pre owned Horning speakers which are a real 96 db and they are ideal. So if you can find some speakers that are really 96 db you will be fine as long as your listening room isn't massive. It looks as though you are in the USA so you will have a good choice of speakers and which we don't get in Europe. If you are determined to have Klipsch speakers then look at their Heritage range and the Heresy 3 or 4 which have 99 db according to their brochure but in reality will be 95/96 so should be suitable and if you like that Klipsch sound.
> 
> Oh and the other thing about Klipsch is that their impedance curve can make them trickier to drive as they are certainly not 8 ohm nominal as per their spec sheet but nearer 5 or 6 ohm nominal and so compounds their reduced efficiency rating (on paper). You ideally need a speaker which stays above 8 ohm for as much of their output as possible. Please don't think I am disparaging about the Klipsch speakers as I like them quite a lot, but they seem to consistently over state the spec on their speakers.
> 
> ...



But I'm also getting the same with the Tekton Lore Reference with 96dB sensitivity,and from I've read Tekton speakers are true to their Sensitivity numbers. I still have to go 2-3pm on the dial for just decent (not loud) listening volume.

I already returned the Klipsch since I had 60 days. I'm in a bedroom so I'm still fairly tight in my room.

Tekton Lore Reference


----------



## LCMusicLover

jambaj0e said:


> But I'm also getting the same with the Tekton Lore Reference with 96dB sensitivity,and from I've read Tekton speakers are true to their Sensitivity numbers. I still have to go 2-3pm on the dial for just decent (not loud) listening volume.
> 
> I already returned the Klipsch since I had 60 days. I'm in a bedroom so I'm still fairly tight in my room.
> 
> Tekton Lore Reference


Funny, I was looking for an HA-300 in those pics. I was like “Where’s Waldo?”


----------



## jambaj0e

LCMusicLover said:


> Funny, I was looking for an HA-300 in those pics. I was like “Where’s Waldo?”



Oh, it's next to my computer desk. Hard part about my room set up, I have to run 20ft speaker cable underneath my bed from the amp to the speakers.


----------



## koven

jambaj0e said:


> Oh, it's next to my computer desk. Hard part about my room set up, I have to run 20ft speaker cable underneath my bed from the amp to the speakers.



IU.. good track,


----------



## jambaj0e

koven said:


> IU.. good track,



Good eye! Yes, love the soundtrack for Crash Landing on You. Been getting more into the K-music in general, as well as K-drama during this lockdown.


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> But I'm also getting the same with the Tekton Lore Reference with 96dB sensitivity,and from I've read Tekton speakers are true to their Sensitivity numbers. I still have to go 2-3pm on the dial for just decent (not loud) listening volume.
> 
> I already returned the Klipsch since I had 60 days. I'm in a bedroom so I'm still fairly tight in my room.
> 
> Tekton Lore Reference


Ok that is surprising. In fairness I think your speakers need to be nearer to a rear wall and that should help but more possible is that the Tekton impedance curve is not so friendly. This can make as much of a difference as sensitivity to be honest. For example a pair of Rogers LS3/5a will play loud from a low powered valve amp such as Quad 22/11 not because of the sensitivity which is about 83db but because they have a nominal impedance of around 15 ohms!!!
Maybe you could try a full range speaker just for a trial as they can have high sensitivity, friendly impedance and no crossover to soak up up wattage as heat. If not available try a Klipsch Heresy III or IV and see if either of those work even just to know as both full range speakers and the Klipsch Heritage range were designed to work from low powered DHT amps of even less than 8 watts.


----------



## ken6217

I decided to go in a different direction with my amp. If anyone is interested, a pair of KR Audio 300B tubes with very low hours on them.

Also selling a pair of Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plates. They had never been used prior to me getting them. They now have about 30 hours on them. They are immaculate. 

And lastly, a pair of excellent strong Ken Rad VT-231 6SN7GT grey glass.


----------



## GU1DO

jambaj0e said:


> Yeah, so far it's back to normal with my Psvane CV-181T mkII instead of those Sylvanias. It's really too bad because I do like the sonic qualities of those Bad Boys. But yea, I'm so glad my amp is ok.
> 
> Oh! I also upgraded my DAC! I now have the Hugo TT2 instead of the Qutest!


Nice dac , i was going to buy it last month but i went for a different direction and i wanted to try somthing other than Chord so i bought the R7 fro Audio Gd,, i heard the tt2 before and i know how it sound compared to my hugo 2, mostly the improvement was fuller sound , warmer tone than the Hugo2 , i never heard the Qutest ,, so what do think the tt2 improved over the qutest beside better resolution ?


----------



## jambaj0e

GU1DO said:


> Nice dac , i was going to buy it last month but i went for a different direction and i wanted to try somthing other than Chord so i bought the R7 fro Audio Gd,, i heard the tt2 before and i know how it sound compared to my hugo 2, mostly the improvement was fuller sound , warmer tone than the Hugo2 , i never heard the Qutest ,, so what do think the tt2 improved over the qutest beside better resolution ?



Definitely much better resolution, instrument separation, soundstage, and just a bit more musical and warmer, but not terribly warm or at the expense of detail or speed.


----------



## GMaxx

I need some feedback on the reliability of the HA-300. I'm thinking about buying a used one about one year old one for a pretty good price. The one area of concern is the his/hum/grunge with some headphones. It seems that some had a defective problem while others had to isolate the unit from the router and any interference to the tubes. I'm not sure if lower impedance headphones will always have this issue. My daily driver is the Focal Stellia which is similar and even lower in impedance than Utopia at 35 ohms. Everything about the HA-300 sounds like something I would love but it's just the thought of having to send something so heavy for repair or the hiss/hum/grunge issue. TIA


----------



## westyjeff

I have had mine for a year and a half with no problems.


----------



## jambaj0e

GMaxx said:


> I need some feedback on the reliability of the HA-300. I'm thinking about buying a used one about one year old one for a pretty good price. The one area of concern is the his/hum/grunge with some headphones. It seems that some had a defective problem while others had to isolate the unit from the router and any interference to the tubes. I'm not sure if lower impedance headphones will always have this issue. My daily driver is the Focal Stellia which is similar and even lower in impedance than Utopia at 35 ohms. Everything about the HA-300 sounds like something I would love but it's just the thought of having to send something so heavy for repair or the hiss/hum/grunge issue. TIA



On my Audeze LCD-3 I haven't had a problem, and when I plugged in the Audiotechnica M50 to test out hums, I didn't hear any either.


----------



## GMaxx

Cool. I'm down to this guy or an LTA amp. Thanks!


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> Anyone running speakers off their speaker taps. My Hugo TT2 is outputting 2.5 RMVS to the HA-300, and I got the Klipsch RP-600m speakers, but I still have to put volume to about 65-75% for decent volume (not loud) even though it says its 96dB. I just replaced it with the Tekton Lore Reference because I have read the RP-600m is more like a 90dB. Surprisingly, even though the Lore Reference is rated 96db, it is a bit quieter than the RP-600m. I had to bring up the line out voltage to 3 RVMS from the Hugo TT2 to match the volume, and I still am listening around 60-75% for decent, not loud sound.
> 
> Are the speaker taps on the HA-300 truly 8wpc, and will I harm the amp or the tubes if I'm running close to 65-75% volume at 3V line in?



No, you won't harm your amp  or the tubes if you are turning the volume to 3am with 3V line in.  I'll be more concern on the distortion caused by higher input voltage, if the system sounds clean and satisfactory, that would be fine.


----------



## Andykong (Jun 4, 2020)

GMaxx said:


> I need some feedback on the reliability of the HA-300. I'm thinking about buying a used one about one year old one for a pretty good price. The one area of concern is the his/hum/grunge with some headphones. It seems that some had a defective problem while others had to isolate the unit from the router and any interference to the tubes. I'm not sure if lower impedance headphones will always have this issue. My daily driver is the Focal Stellia which is similar and even lower in impedance than Utopia at 35 ohms. Everything about the HA-300 sounds like something I would love but it's just the thought of having to send something so heavy for repair or the hiss/hum/grunge issue. TIA





jambaj0e said:


> On my Audeze LCD-3 I haven't had a problem, and when I plugged in the Audiotechnica M50 to test out hums, I didn't hear any either.



Thank  you @jambaj0e for contributing  your first hand experience.  The ATH-M50 is 38 Ω while the Stella is 35 Ω, this should provide some bearing on the hiss/hum issue that GMaxx is concerned.

However, tube amplifier are indeed more sensitive to Interference and ground loop in general, not just HA-300. When we discuss about interference, we probably have "dirty" devices such as RF mouse, WiFi Router, mobile phones in mind, but what if I told you that your *USB cable*, light dimmer and computer *keyboard *are the source of interference?  Check out some of the sharing from HA-300 and HA-1AMK2 users (check *HERE* and *HERE *for examples), it is not straightforward, but the problems are well discussed and solvable.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Thank  you @jambaj0e for contributing  your first hand experience.  The ATH-M50 is 38 Ω while the Stella is 35 Ω, this should provide some bearing on the hiss/hum issue that GMaxx is concerned.
> 
> However, tube amplifier are indeed more sensitive to Interference and ground loop in general, not just HA-300. When we discuss about interference, we probably have "dirty" devices such as RF mouse, WiFi Router, mobile phones in mind, but what if I told you that your *USB cable*, light dimmer and computer *keyboard *are the source of interference?  Check out some of the sharing from HA-300 and HA-1AMK2 users (check *HERE* and *HERE *for examples), it is not straightforward, but the problems are well discussed and solvable.



By the way Andy, can I plug both the RCA and XLR cables from the Hugo TT2 to the Cayin HA-300? The TT2 doesn't have a selection switch for RCA and XLR as the HA-300, so I'm guessing it'll be a hot signal all the time from both cables. I would think it'll be ok for the HA-300, right?


----------



## jambaj0e (Jun 7, 2020)

@Andykong  By the way, I notice that when I have both the RCA and XLR cables in the amp from my Hugo TT2, they play fine, but when when I have nothing playing, I have a hum/buzz at 100% volume on the HA-300 through the XLR side, but nothing from the RCA side. 

I even turned off the TT2 DAC, and tested it again, still getting a buzz from the XLR side, but not the RCA side.

Why is that?


----------



## jambaj0e (Jun 7, 2020)

Here's the Norse XLR Cable I'm using. Strangely, when I only have the Amp on and the RCA cable disconnect, the XLR side starts to buzz at 3 o'clock position instead of the last click on volume dial to 100%.


----------



## jambaj0e

So I have an update @Andykong : I took off the XLR cables completely, and when I switch to the XLR selector and turn up the volume, I can hear buzzing starting at 75% volume.


----------



## Coffee Music

How's the Cayin as a standalone amp with speakers? I've been trying to find more information on this but can't seem to find much. Is it exceptional or just good?

I'm planning to use this amp for both speakers and headphone and I think if it's as good with speakers as it is with headphone I think it's an endgame product for me.


----------



## jambaj0e (Jul 1, 2020)

Coffee Music said:


> How's the Cayin as a standalone amp with speakers? I've been trying to find more information on this but can't seem to find much. Is it exceptional or just good?
> 
> I'm planning to use this amp for both speakers and headphone and I think if it's as good with speakers as it is with headphone I think it's an endgame product for me.



It sounds great and clear with my Tekton Lore Reference, although I don't necessarily have it in the most optimal listening position in my bedroom. I would say, though, I wish I can squeeze more juice out of it, since I'm constantly at 65-75% volume to have decent volume, not talking blasting, too, even though the speakers rate 96dB 8Ohms.












https://www.tektondesign.com/lore-reference.html

I also run a thin 100W powered Dayton Audio SUB-1000L subwoofer with 10" driver under my bed towards the foot of the table, just to add just enough sub-bass slam, although the Lore Reference does have a pretty darn good bass extension

https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...0-watt-low-profile-powered-subwoofer--300-639



I tend to listen to music 95% on my Audezes and because my room is not optimized for speakers, I didn't want to spend over a $ grand for them. When I move to a better space, that's when I'll upgrade the speakers. The Lore Reference still sound good, too!


----------



## dadracer2

Coffee Music said:


> How's the Cayin as a standalone amp with speakers? I've been trying to find more information on this but can't seem to find much. Is it exceptional or just good?
> 
> I'm planning to use this amp for both speakers and headphone and I think if it's as good with speakers as it is with headphone I think it's an endgame product for me.


It works very well but is dependent on speaker sensitivity, impedance and room size.

I bought the HA300 with the plan to use it as an integrated amp with speakers and headphones and am very happy with it in that role. 

If your room is of average size then you need speakers which have an impedance curve that stays above 8 ohm as much as possible across the frequency range to make it am easier load. In terms of sensitivity you will need around 96db@1W/1M . Now there are companies which seem to have their own "scale" such as Klipsch where they overstate things. So you need a REAL 96 db or more (if you have a bigger room). 

As you are in the USA you should have a good election to choose from as there are quite a few small bespoke speaker companies making high efficiency speakers ideal for 8 watt amps or even less. It will just be a case of finding what suits you in terms of the sound profile you prefer.

Good hunting.


----------



## Coffee Music

I see. Thanks to both. @jambaj0e I think the Tekton Double Impact is an amazing set of speakers and if funds permit that's what I'd like to pair with Cayin with. What's with all these hum talks I'm hearing about though.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> By the way Andy, can I plug both the RCA and XLR cables from the Hugo TT2 to the Cayin HA-300? The TT2 doesn't have a selection switch for RCA and XLR as the HA-300, so I'm guessing it'll be a hot signal all the time from both cables. I would think it'll be ok for the HA-300, right?


----------



## jambaj0e

@Andykong for some reason I don't see your response


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> By the way Andy, can I plug both the RCA and XLR cables from the Hugo TT2 to the Cayin HA-300? The TT2 doesn't have a selection switch for RCA and XLR as the HA-300, so I'm guessing it'll be a hot signal all the time from both cables. I would think it'll be ok for the HA-300, right?



I am not familiar with Hugo TT2, I guess it is OK to do that.  I have used our iDAC-6MK2 and CS-100DAC with HA-300 in various shows, with both RCA and XLR connected, it worked fine so far, so unless there HugoTT2 has some protective mechanism to stop that practise, otherwise it should be OK.



jambaj0e said:


> @Andykong  By the way, I notice that when I have both the RCA and XLR cables in the amp from my Hugo TT2, they play fine, but when when I have nothing playing, I have a hum/buzz at 100% volume on the HA-300 through the XLR side, but nothing from the RCA side.
> 
> I even turned off the TT2 DAC, and tested it again, still getting a buzz from the XLR side, but not the RCA side.
> 
> Why is that?



I don't think the XLR cable is causing the hum, so we can ignore that at this stage, unless you have tested the cable and observed similar problem in another system.

The RCA and XLR input are identical with the exception of input transformer in the XLR input circuit. What happened is, the 6SN7 and 300B are operated in single-ended, therefore the XLR signal will go through a pair of input transformers and convert the balanced signal to single-end before feeding to the tube amplification circuit.  If everything remain the same but the RCA input is completely silent, only the XLR is hummed at full volume, that is likely caused by the input transformer. 

If the hum only appear when there is no input signal (i.e., when the input transformer is not loaded), and you don't hear any hum whenever music is playing (i.e, when the transformer is loaded), then I would see any point to worry about that.  The input transformers are working as intended. 



jambaj0e said:


> So I have an update @Andykong : I took off the XLR cables completely, and when I switch to the XLR selector and turn up the volume, I can hear buzzing starting at 75% volume.



That is the same problem with your previous test, the only different is when you connect the HA-300 to TT2 with a pair of XLR cable, you have connected the ground of the two pieces of equipment.  When you disconnect the XLR, you have changed the ground level of your system.   Not any different from what you have raised previously.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> @Andykong for some reason I don't see your response



I was trying to combine all your three question into one post.  I probably hit the post reply button accidentally when I copy and paste the Quotes.


----------



## jambaj0e (Jul 1, 2020)

Andykong said:


> I don't think the XLR cable is causing the hum, so we can ignore that at this stage, unless you have tested the cable and observed similar problem in another system.
> 
> The RCA and XLR input are identical with the exception of input transformer in the XLR input circuit. What happened is, the 6SN7 and 300B are operated in single-ended, therefore the XLR signal will go through a pair of input transformers and convert the balanced signal to single-end before feeding to the tube amplification circuit.  If everything remain the same but the RCA input is completely silent, only the XLR is hummed at full volume, that is likely caused by the input transformer.
> 
> ...



The hum happens from the XLR input selected at very high volume without any music, around 95-100%. When the DAC is off or not connected to the HA-300 via XLR, the hum starts much sooner at around 70%"


Also, I have gotten an e-mail from John from Cayin ( john@cayin.cn ), is he saying the same thing you're saying?

"Thanks for your quick response.

Please also help check when it is setting at normal listening volume. Also with and without music and see if there are any differences. Appreciated for your help.

Differences between the RCA and XLR is that we have used Balanced transformers for the XLR. As for the audio transformer it may cause extra hum when volume goes very high compared with RCA. It is normal under such case. That is also why we have suggested you to test under normal listening volume and normal operation mode.

Yes, hum at very high volume is normal. Please kindly note."


----------



## Coffee Music (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm afraid this humming issue is causing concerns for me and others as potential buyers. It's something I can live with for an amp that is $1500 or less but for $4000 I don't think I can do it. Other reviews I've came across did mention humming as well. The Cayin is an absolutely beautiful piece it's unfortunate it's being struck by this humming issue. Perhaps Cayin could release a potential new product identical to this but without the speaker sections.


----------



## ken6217

I don’t think this problem is universal. I’ve on the same twice, and this problem is not universal. I’ve owned this amp twice, and I know two people that havethis amp, and one of them (project 86) did the review it on Head Fi and never had this issue. Maybe there’s an issue with yours, or something else that’s not compatible in your system.


----------



## jambaj0e

ken6217 said:


> I don’t think this problem is universal. I’ve on the same twice, and this problem is not universal. I’ve owned this amp twice, and I know two people that havethis amp, and one of them (project 86) did the review it on Head Fi and never had this issue. Maybe there’s an issue with yours, or something else that’s not compatible in your system.



Have you tried going XLR connection to the Ha-300, and with no music playing, put the volume all the way up? With RCA is silent, but XLR, I do get this at the extreme volume, which I'll never listen to in real life, though. 

Otherwise, it does sound fantastic in normal listening levels.


----------



## ken6217

jambaj0e said:


> Have you tried going XLR connection to the Ha-300, and with no music playing, put the volume all the way up? With RCA is silent, but XLR, I do get this at the extreme volume, which I'll never listen to in real life, though.
> 
> Otherwise, it does sound fantastic in normal listening levels.



I do use XLR but never had the volume up all of the way with no music playing, and so you got me there.


----------



## jambaj0e

ken6217 said:


> I do use XLR but never had the volume up all of the way with no music playing, and so you got me there.



That's the only time I've ever heard it, at the 95-100% otherwise, it's great.

My audiophile friend who's been a big Fleetwood Mac fan for decades, when he heard my system + my other friend's M-Scaler with the $1700 Wave Reference BNC cables, Innuos Streamer, & LCD-4, he said that was the best Fleetwood Mac's Dreams that he ever heard, besting out his $25k Linn & and T+A system.


----------



## Coffee Music (Jul 2, 2020)

What was your system that he listened to? Really comes to show you can't just fling money and get good sound. It's an adventure. Gotta understand what's good beyond the price. Synergy is a big deal.

200 years from now we will look back to 2020 and realize synergy is just another word for bad products working well with bad products


----------



## dadracer2

Over the years I have had hum issues with a number of the valve amps I have owned and most of the time it has been a grounding issue or a proximity issue with other transformers such as SUT for phono stages. If you are getting some hum on XLR at max volume I really think this is not an issue with the HA300 but any DHT amp would probably do the same. Do you have hum at normal or even slightly higher than normal listening levels? If not then I don't think you have a big worry......frankly.  

The HA300 is capable of delivering quite remarkable music but it is a DHT amp so it is never going to behave or measure like a SS amp or digital amp. Your money, your choice.


----------



## jambaj0e

Coffee Music said:


> What was your system that he listened to? Really comes to show you can't just fling money and get good sound. It's an adventure. Gotta understand what's good beyond the price. Synergy is a big deal.
> 
> 200 years from now we will look back to 2020 and realize synergy is just another word for bad products working well with bad products





dadracer2 said:


> Over the years I have had hum issues with a number of the valve amps I have owned and most of the time it has been a grounding issue or a proximity issue with other transformers such as SUT for phono stages. If you are getting some hum on XLR at max volume I really think this is not an issue with the HA300 but any DHT amp would probably do the same. Do you have hum at normal or even slightly higher than normal listening levels? If not then I don't think you have a big worry......frankly.
> 
> The HA300 is capable of delivering quite remarkable music but it is a DHT amp so it is never going to behave or measure like a SS amp or digital amp. Your money, your choice.



Dead silent on the XLRs until 95% volume AND only when I listen through the headphones. Can't hear it on my Tekton Lore Reference speakers at 100%


----------



## jambaj0e (Jul 2, 2020)

Coffee Music said:


> What was your system that he listened to? Really comes to show you can't just fling money and get good sound. It's an adventure. Gotta understand what's good beyond the price. Synergy is a big deal.
> 
> 200 years from now we will look back to 2020 and realize synergy is just another word for bad products working well with bad products


What do you mean? The entire system he listened to as his "ultimate Fleetwood Mac Dreams experience" was:


Innuos Zen Mk3 Streamer ($2599)
to Chord M-Scaler ($4795)
with 1m Wave STORM Reference Dual BNC cable ($1700)
to Chord Hugo TT2 DAC ($5495)
to Cayin HA-300 tube amp ($3995)
via Sommer Cable Epilogue XLR Cable ($182)
with a pair of Psvane ACME Supreme 300b tubes ($955)
and a pair of NOS Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Base tubes ($600)
powered by Morrow Audio MAP3 Power Cord ($379)
to Audeze LCD-4 ($3995)
So sure you can get great sound elsewhere, but the sound from this $24,695 system was simply incredible.


----------



## Coffee Music

jambaj0e said:


> What do you mean? The entire system he listened to as his "ultimate Fleetwood Mac Dreams experience" was:
> 
> 
> Innuos Zenith Mk3 Streamer ($4249)
> ...


So the system he listened to was around $25k that bests his own system that was also $25k?


----------



## ken6217

jambaj0e said:


> What do you mean? The entire system he listened to as his "ultimate Fleetwood Mac Dreams experience" was:
> 
> 
> Innuos Zenith Mk3 Streamer ($4249)
> ...



What about the interconnects and power cables?

You didn’t add that in. Post the brand and model.


----------



## Coffee Music

I would love to hear that system vs a 7k system consisting of a the cayin 300 + Empyrean


----------



## ken6217

Coffee Music said:


> I would love to hear that system vs a 7k system consisting of a the cayin 300 + Empyrean



Using price as a barometer doesn’t work. What if you don’t like the sound signature of a particular brand.

For example, I know a lot of people like Chord products, but I wouldn’t own it for free.


----------



## jambaj0e (Jul 2, 2020)

ken6217 said:


> What about the interconnects and power cables?
> 
> You didn’t add that in. Post the brand and model.



Just updated with the cables, and also corrected the Innuos Zenith to the Zen.


----------



## Coffee Music (Jul 2, 2020)

ken6217 said:


> Using price as a barometer doesn’t work. What if you don’t like the sound signature of a particular brand.
> 
> For example, I know a lot of people like Chord products, but I wouldn’t own it for free.


I like different types of sound. I prefer a smooth sweet and lush sound but I can enjoy the opposite of that too.

I never liked Chord products. I've never listened to them and also too poor to own them but I've heard a few people I trust that chord is meh. The biggest redflag to me is Chord having a 4k dac and a jump up from that is a 11k dac. The huge price discrepancy speaks nothing more than simple greed to me. Again, I want to emphasis I'm too poor to own a chord product and so I'm biased, but it's not a blind bias.

EDIT: It has been shown times and times again that if you give people 2 identical pizzas and say one of them cost $5 the other is $30. They will most likely tell you the $30 is better. It would be interesting to get knowledgeable listeners that don't know about Chord products and let them listen to a Chord Dave and show the pricetag as $2000. That would be a an interesting experiment.


----------



## jambaj0e

ken6217 said:


> Using price as a barometer doesn’t work. What if you don’t like the sound signature of a particular brand.
> 
> For example, I know a lot of people like Chord products, but I wouldn’t own it for free.



That's true, not all system works for everything. Personally, the Focal Clear didn't work as well with the HA-300 with the particular tubes.The bass become a bit too overpowering and bloomy. The Clear was excellent on the Hugo TT2 directly, though.

Interesting that you don't like Chord products. Which ones have you heard and why do you not like them?


----------



## Coffee Music

If I had $10k to spend. A use it or lose it scenario. I would first buy the Cayin300. 1 senn HD650, 1 Empyrean, and a Utopia for $2400. The rest of the money goes to tacos for everybody in town.


----------



## Andykong

Coffee Music said:


> How's the Cayin as a standalone amp with speakers? I've been trying to find more information on this but can't seem to find much. Is it exceptional or just good?
> 
> I'm planning to use this amp for both speakers and headphone and I think if it's as good with speakers as it is with headphone I think it's an endgame product for me.





dadracer2 said:


> It works very well but is dependent on speaker sensitivity, impedance and room size.
> 
> I bought the HA300 with the plan to use it as an integrated amp with speakers and headphones and am very happy with it in that role.
> 
> ...



If you want to access the speaker driving capability of HA-300, you can look for audiophile review of 300B SET amplifiers, such as *THIS ONE*.  This is Cayin A-300B SET Amplifier, speaker only.  Other then 1 additional stage with 6SL7 before 6SN7, the major advantage of  A-300B over HA-300 on speaker application is the provision of 16Ohm and 4Ohm speaker output.  We can't offer multiple speaker output in HA-300 before we have 4 sets of output from the HA-300 output transformer already, 3 sets for headphones and 1 set for speaker.  But if you stick with 8 ohm speakers, then the different will be minimized.  

While 8W Class A is limited power if you want to fill up a decent size sitting room, but if you were to use it a a study room, it should be very sufficient, given the right speaker.  @dadracer2 has suggested a very good guideline: sensitivity around 96db @ 1W/1M), and this is a good guideline.  In addition, if two speakers are rated at the same sensitivity, bookshelf is easier then floor standing, bass reflex is easier then sealed box, placing near wall will almost equivalent to +3db sensitivity, and +6dB if placed near corner.  

Regarding Kilpsch speakers, the horn designed models are indeed very efficient, Klipsch use a different sensitivity rating, Take *THIS* model as example, RF-7III is rated at  100 dB @ 2.83V / 1M and 8 ohm and that is very efficient.  In case you are not familiar with this format of rating, 100 dB @ 2.83V / 1M is equal to 100 dB @ 1W / 1M at 8Ohm,  but if the speaker is rated at 4 ohm, then 2.83V will get you 2W. and the sensitivity rating will become 100 dB @ 2W/1m, which is equivalent to 97 dB @ 1W/1M (3 dB different for doubled power).


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> What do you mean? The entire system he listened to as his "ultimate Fleetwood Mac Dreams experience" was:
> 
> 
> Innuos Zenith Mk3 Streamer ($4249)
> ...



Where were this dream system documented?  any link?  This sounds very interesting.


----------



## Andykong (Jul 2, 2020)

Coffee Music said:


> I would love to hear that system vs a 7k system consisting of a the cayin 300 + Empyrean



Let's say 8K, you need to have a DAC at least.




Coffee Music said:


> If I had $10k to spend. A use it or lose it scenario. I would first buy the Cayin300. 1 senn HD650, 1 Empyrean, and a Utopia for $2400. The rest of the money goes to tacos for everybody in town.



If you were to buy 3 pairs of  headphones, try to fit one pair of closed back into your plan.  Just make sure you can enjoy your system when isolation is critical.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Where were this dream system documented?  any link?  This sounds very interesting.



This was at my house. I have the Cayin HA-300 + Hugo TT2 + Audeze LCD-3, and my friend @kyle1010  brought over his M-Scaler with the Wave Storm Reference BNC, Innuos Zen mk3 streamer, and LCD-4


----------



## Andykong (Jul 2, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> The hum happens from the XLR input selected at very high volume without any music, around 95-100%. When the DAC is off or not connected to the HA-300 via XLR, the hum starts much sooner at around 70%"
> 
> 
> Also, I have gotten an e-mail from John from Cayin ( john@cayin.cn ), is he saying the same thing you're saying?
> ...



Yes, we are saying the same thing from different perspective, John is stationed in our headquarter so he is closer to the engineers.  I am cutting into the problem as an experienced user. 




jambaj0e said:


> Have you tried going XLR connection to the Ha-300, and with no music playing, put the volume all the way up? With RCA is silent, but XLR, I do get this at the extreme volume, which I'll never listen to in real life, though.
> 
> Otherwise, it does sound fantastic in normal listening levels.



If you can hear Hum at very high volume position when music is playing, I'll definitely alerted and suggested a thorough examination on your unit, but if this only happens when there is no music playing, then you are deliberately creating an extreme condition outside practical usage. This is like you complained you can smell burning tyre when you floor your padel at N gear but you can't smell anything wrong when your are driving.


----------



## Andykong

Coffee Music said:


> I'm afraid this humming issue is causing concerns for me and others as potential buyers. It's something I can live with for an amp that is $1500 or less but for $4000 I don't think I can do it. Other reviews I've came across did mention humming as well. The Cayin is an absolutely beautiful piece it's unfortunate it's being struck by this humming issue. Perhaps Cayin could release a potential new product identical to this but without the speaker sections.



If you are referring to the noise problem mentioned in Dave Hanson's review, the same HA-300 review units was reviewed by Chris Marten of HiFI+ before Dave received the unit, and the HA-300B review sample was then shipped to  John Grandberg (aka @project86 ) after Dave completed his review.  John noticed the protective sponge around the 300B tubes was missing, so we changed the 300B power tubes.  Since Chris Marten and John Grandberg described the HA-300 as quiet and silent, so I assume the 300B power tubes was damaged during the shipping process to Dave Hanson.


----------



## project86

Yes I definitely know there was an issue with a damaged tube(s) at first. Shipping tubes can be tricky. Once those were replaced, it's not an issue at all in my experience.


----------



## Coffee Music (Jul 2, 2020)

project86 said:


> Yes I definitely know there was an issue with a damaged tube(s) at first. Shipping tubes can be tricky. Once those were replaced, it's not an issue at all in my experience.


I guess it is time I open my wallet.

EDIT: oh wait there's not enough.


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> If you want to access the speaker driving capability of HA-300, you can look for audiophile review of 300B SET amplifiers, such as *THIS ONE*.  This is Cayin A-300B SET Amplifier, speaker only.  Other then 1 additional stage with 6SL7 before 6SN7, the major advantage of  A-300B over HA-300 on speaker application is the provision of 16Ohm and 4Ohm speaker output.  We can't offer multiple speaker output in HA-300 before we have 4 sets of output from the HA-300 output transformer already, 3 sets for headphones and 1 set for speaker.  But if you stick with 8 ohm speakers, then the different will be minimized.
> 
> While 8W Class A is limited power if you want to fill up a decent size sitting room, but if you were to use it a a study room, it should be very sufficient, given the right speaker.  @dadracer2 has suggested a very good guideline: sensitivity around 96db @ 1W/1M), and this is a good guideline.  In addition, if two speakers are rated at the same sensitivity, bookshelf is easier then floor standing, bass reflex is easier then sealed box, placing near wall will almost equivalent to +3db sensitivity, and +6dB if placed near corner.
> 
> Regarding Kilpsch speakers, the horn designed models are indeed very efficient, Klipsch use a different sensitivity rating, Take *THIS* model as example, RF-7III is rated at  100 dB @ 2.83V / 1M and 8 ohm and that is very efficient.  In case you are not familiar with this format of rating, 100 dB @ 2.83V / 1M is equal to 100 dB @ 1W / 1M at 8Ohm,  but if the speaker is rated at 4 ohm, then 2.83V will get you 2W. and the sensitivity rating will become 100 dB @ 2W/1m, which is equivalent to 97 dB @ 1W/1M (3 dB different for doubled power).



I found these speaker results by trial and error and not by the physics which on reflection would have made more sense. Oh yes and corner/rear wall reinforcement helps. I ended up with some pre loved Horning Perikles which are made for corner placement. The resulting sound levels are hard to believe coming from only 8 watts. Your figure on Klipsch and others such as KLH are about 3dB down on what their brochure numbers suggest and may also be worse due to their impedance curve. On the other hand if you try some Klipsch Heresy 3 they will still be ok as they are rated at 99dB so in reality 96dB, so I'm not against them....just their sensitivity specs!!!


----------



## wazzupi

Any good priced speakers to run off this amp ?


----------



## dadracer2

wazzupi said:


> Any good priced speakers to run off this amp ?


A lot depends on what your classification of good price is, but as you are in the US there are quite a number of companies such as Zu, Kipsch, Tekton, Lore and Omega which have speakers that will work well with the HA300 from a power/impedance/sensitivity perspective. Then it's down to you and your room size and sound preferences.....oh and your wallet! Some of these speakers seem to start at $900 or so, which when you've already spent a load more on an HA300 seems good to me. But at the end of the day it's your money, so it is your choice.


----------



## wazzupi (Jul 6, 2020)

dadracer2 said:


> A lot depends on what your classification of good price is, but as you are in the US there are quite a number of companies such as Zu, Kipsch, Tekton, Lore and Omega which have speakers that will work well with the HA300 from a power/impedance/sensitivity perspective. Then it's down to you and your room size and sound preferences.....oh and your wallet! Some of these speakers seem to start at $900 or so, which when you've already spent a load more on an HA300 seems good to me. But at the end of the day it's your money, so it is your choice.


It's for a bedroom probably 12 by 12 feet


----------



## wazzupi

dadracer2 said:


> A lot depends on what your classification of good price is, but as you are in the US there are quite a number of companies such as Zu, Kipsch, Tekton, Lore and Omega which have speakers that will work well with the HA300 from a power/impedance/sensitivity perspective. Then it's down to you and your room size and sound preferences.....oh and your wallet! Some of these speakers seem to start at $900 or so, which when you've already spent a load more on an HA300 seems good to me. But at the end of the day it's your money, so it is your choice.


those tekton lore sound interesting I wonder if i should go for the full size or middle reference ? (I'm a newb to speakers :O)


----------



## Andykong

wazzupi said:


> It's for a bedroom probably 12 by 12 feet


Not a good listening environment for speaker, a square room will have a lot of standing wave, better choose speaker with less bass, less is more definitively apply to your room.


----------



## koven

You only need a mini monitor for a 12x12 room. Something small like the ProAc tablette which works well w/ 5-10 watts. Omega is also a good choice for cheaper.


----------



## wazzupi

Andykong said:


> Not a good listening environment for speaker, a square room will have a lot of standing wave, better choose speaker with less bass, less is more definitively apply to your room.


What would you say is the minimum size room ?


----------



## Articnoise

wazzupi said:


> What would you say is the minimum size room ?



It is not the size of the room that is the problem, it’s that the shape of the room is square.


----------



## wazzupi

Articnoise said:


> It is not the size of the room that is the problem, it’s that the shape of the room is square.


What shape does it need to be ?


----------



## Articnoise

Rectangular (Golden ratio for room acoustics).

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php


----------



## wazzupi

My room is 10 x 14 (I measured it)idk if that's enough ?!?


----------



## jambaj0e

This is why even though I have my Tekton Lore Reference, I still listen 95% on my LCD-3 from my HA-300. No compromises due to my room arrangements =D


----------



## wazzupi (Jul 7, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> This is why even though I have my Tekton Lore Reference, I still listen 95% on my LCD-3 from my HA-300. No compromises due to my room arrangements =D


What's wrong with your room ? You mentioned you wish it got louder ? Is it because it's too low or very loud volume requires you to push the amp to 90% or above ?

What do you think of the lore ? It's more efficient only a few hundred bucks difference


----------



## llamaluv (Jul 7, 2020)

Hi, speaking of speaker taps, a question for @Andykong and anyone else who may have experience with this. I can already anticipate what kind of response this question could elicit, but let me ask it anyway:

What if any differences in sound quality might one expect by connecting headphones to the speaker taps (by using a speaker adapter cable) instead of the conventional 1/4" or XLR headphone outputs?

Also, is it okay to connect headphones using the speaker taps in the first place? There are no issues with doing so with solid state amps, but I know it can be a different question with it comes to tube amps...


----------



## jambaj0e

wazzupi said:


> What's wrong with your room ? You mentioned you wish it got louder ? Is it because it's too low or very loud volume requires you to push the amp to 90% or above ?
> 
> What do you think of the lore ? It's more efficient only a few hundred bucks difference



Actually, I noticed it mostly when I'm streaming Netflix and only certain films. I think it's more of that. With music, I don't have to push as far, especially now that I'm going from the HUGO TT2 to the HA-300 via XLR cables. I've never push 90%, even on those other situations, I've only gone 75%.

I do like the Lore Reference, but because of my setup arrangement, the speaker "hasn't disappeared" even though it sounds really good. That's why I don't want to put too much in-depth review on it because my setup is not optimized as much for really proper speaker listening


----------



## Dave01236

New user of the cayin ha300 amp here. I have seen people in the forums worried that it might not be the appropriate amp for them because of the supposed humming the amp has. I've had this amp for maybe a month now, and tried different tubes in it. So far, it has been DEAD silent for me, even at 100% volume. And I'm pretty sure this amp is dead silent for many others as well. Anyway, I can understand why people are concerned. If you're gonna spend over $4,000 on a headphone amp, it has to be perfect. And to me, it really is the perfect amp. I have used many tube amplifiers in the past, and also many tubes. I've used 6DJ8, 5998, 274B, ECC35, 6SN7, 6F8G. So far, the cayin ha300 with the 300B and 6SN7 tubes is the best setup I've ever had. You really can't go wrong with a 300B amp. The 300B tubes compared to many great rectifiers I've heard in the past, really have a magical sound. It helps reveal things in music that couldn't be revealed properly before. I really noticed that. They are really sweet sounding tubes. The 300B sound is tough to beat. The stock 300B tubes that come with the amp are pretty good already, although I didn't have the time to use them much. I bought a pair of takatsuki 300B tubes, and I truly believe they are the best 300B tubes out there with the western electric's and perhaps the psvane's. I really recommend tube rolling with this amp, it really does improve the sound even further! As for the 6sn7's, once again the stock tubes are good for starters. I have used the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters and the 1578 Melz (russian tubes) in the cayin ha300. The tung sol's are great sounding tubes really, but their midrange doesn't quite compare to the midrange of the Melz. Many consider the Melz as the holy grail of 6SN7. And I completely understand why. The midrange of those tubes is legendary. It truly is. My pair was made in the 80's, and I have a pair from '63 coming my way. Apparently the '63 tubes are better than the '80. So I can't wait to give those tubes a good listen! Previously, before I decided to buy a cayin ha300, I had the woo audio WA22. Amazing amp, really. But once again I had to buy something even better than what I already had. I've done that only what, 5 or 6 times so far (sigh). The cayin ha300, compared to the wa22, has more slam. The snare drum hits harder. There's a bigger soundstage, more precise imaging. Also, in some tracks I felt like the cymbal was literally next to me. So the highs are better for sure. There's also more clarity in my songs now. The cayin ha300 isn't cheap, but if you have a $1000 - $2000 amp and you want to upgrade to something even better, I absolutely recommend the cayin ha300!!


----------



## wazzupi

jambaj0e said:


> Actually, I noticed it mostly when I'm streaming Netflix and only certain films. I think it's more of that. With music, I don't have to push as far, especially now that I'm going from the HUGO TT2 to the HA-300 via XLR cables. I've never push 90%, even on those other situations, I've only gone 75%.
> 
> I do like the Lore Reference, but because of my setup arrangement, the speaker "hasn't disappeared" even though it sounds really good. That's why I don't want to put too much in-depth review on it because my setup is not optimized as much for really proper speaker listening


Do you have the beryllium tweeters ?


----------



## wazzupi

Dave01236 said:


> New user of the cayin ha300 amp here. I have seen people in the forums worried that it might not be the appropriate amp for them because of the supposed humming the amp has. I've had this amp for maybe a month now, and tried different tubes in it. So far, it has been DEAD silent for me, even at 100% volume. And I'm pretty sure this amp is dead silent for many others as well. Anyway, I can understand why people are concerned. If you're gonna spend over $4,000 on a headphone amp, it has to be perfect. And to me, it really is the perfect amp. I have used many tube amplifiers in the past, and also many tubes. I've used 6DJ8, 5998, 274B, ECC35, 6SN7, 6F8G. So far, the cayin ha300 with the 300B and 6SN7 tubes is the best setup I've ever had. You really can't go wrong with a 300B amp. The 300B tubes compared to many great rectifiers I've heard in the past, really have a magical sound. It helps reveal things in music that couldn't be revealed properly before. I really noticed that. They are really sweet sounding tubes. The 300B sound is tough to beat. The stock 300B tubes that come with the amp are pretty good already, although I didn't have the time to use them much. I bought a pair of takatsuki 300B tubes, and I truly believe they are the best 300B tubes out there with the western electric's and perhaps the psvane's. I really recommend tube rolling with this amp, it really does improve the sound even further! As for the 6sn7's, once again the stock tubes are good for starters. I have used the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters and the 1578 Melz (russian tubes) in the cayin ha300. The tung sol's are great sounding tubes really, but their midrange doesn't quite compare to the midrange of the Melz. Many consider the Melz as the holy grail of 6SN7. And I completely understand why. The midrange of those tubes is legendary. It truly is. My pair was made in the 80's, and I have a pair from '63 coming my way. Apparently the '63 tubes are better than the '80. So I can't wait to give those tubes a good listen! Previously, before I decided to buy a cayin ha300, I had the woo audio WA22. Amazing amp, really. But once again I had to buy something even better than what I already had. I've done that only what, 5 or 6 times so far (sigh). The cayin ha300, compared to the wa22, has more slam. The snare drum hits harder. There's a bigger soundstage, more precise imaging. Also, in some tracks I felt like the cymbal was literally next to me. So the highs are better for sure. There's also more clarity in my songs now. The cayin ha300 isn't cheap, but if you have a $1000 - $2000 amp and you want to upgrade to something even better, I absolutely recommend the cayin ha300!!


I'm interested in getting a pair of melz got any recommendations where to find them


----------



## Dave01236

wazzupi said:


> I'm interested in getting a pair of melz got any recommendations where to find them



I think there are some pairs on ebay but you have to be careful. Some try to sell them as Melz but they aren't. There are many ways to know whether they are real or not, like the ''1578'' displayed on the tubes. Also, the real Melz have 5 holes in the plates.


----------



## dandu3

Dave01236 said:


> New user of the cayin ha300 amp here. I have seen people in the forums worried that it might not be the appropriate amp for them because of the supposed humming the amp has. I've had this amp for maybe a month now, and tried different tubes in it. So far, it has been DEAD silent for me, even at 100% volume. And I'm pretty sure this amp is dead silent for many others as well. Anyway, I can understand why people are concerned. If you're gonna spend over $4,000 on a headphone amp, it has to be perfect. And to me, it really is the perfect amp. I have used many tube amplifiers in the past, and also many tubes. I've used 6DJ8, 5998, 274B, ECC35, 6SN7, 6F8G. So far, the cayin ha300 with the 300B and 6SN7 tubes is the best setup I've ever had. You really can't go wrong with a 300B amp. The 300B tubes compared to many great rectifiers I've heard in the past, really have a magical sound. It helps reveal things in music that couldn't be revealed properly before. I really noticed that. They are really sweet sounding tubes. The 300B sound is tough to beat. The stock 300B tubes that come with the amp are pretty good already, although I didn't have the time to use them much. I bought a pair of takatsuki 300B tubes, and I truly believe they are the best 300B tubes out there with the western electric's and perhaps the psvane's. I really recommend tube rolling with this amp, it really does improve the sound even further! As for the 6sn7's, once again the stock tubes are good for starters. I have used the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters and the 1578 Melz (russian tubes) in the cayin ha300. The tung sol's are great sounding tubes really, but their midrange doesn't quite compare to the midrange of the Melz. Many consider the Melz as the holy grail of 6SN7. And I completely understand why. The midrange of those tubes is legendary. It truly is. My pair was made in the 80's, and I have a pair from '63 coming my way. Apparently the '63 tubes are better than the '80. So I can't wait to give those tubes a good listen! Previously, before I decided to buy a cayin ha300, I had the woo audio WA22. Amazing amp, really. But once again I had to buy something even better than what I already had. I've done that only what, 5 or 6 times so far (sigh). The cayin ha300, compared to the wa22, has more slam. The snare drum hits harder. There's a bigger soundstage, more precise imaging. Also, in some tracks I felt like the cymbal was literally next to me. So the highs are better for sure. There's also more clarity in my songs now. The cayin ha300 isn't cheap, but if you have a $1000 - $2000 amp and you want to upgrade to something even better, I absolutely recommend the cayin ha300!!




holy crap dude use some paragraphs i'm 2 lines in and I'm already out of ****ing breath


----------



## jambaj0e

wazzupi said:


> Do you have the beryllium tweeters ?




I don't. I actually got a free upgrade to the ScanSpeak tweeters that's usually used on the flagship speakers (Moab, Ulbreth), since they ran out of the normal SEAS tweeter and can't get anymore due to COVID-19.


----------



## dadracer2

llamaluv said:


> Hi, speaking of speaker taps, a question for @Andykong and anyone else who may have experience with this. I can already anticipate what kind of response this question could elicit, but let me ask it anyway:
> 
> What if any differences in sound quality might one expect by connecting headphones to the speaker taps (by using a speaker adapter cable) instead of the conventional 1/4" or XLR headphone outputs?
> 
> Also, is it okay to connect headphones using the speaker taps in the first place? There are no issues with doing so with solid state amps, but I know it can be a different question with it comes to tube amps...


I'm pretty sure you can, but I'm not sure why you would want to do that unless you are thinking of using electrostats and so are connecting an adapter box to the speaker posts. Otherwise if you are using dynamics or planars you will miss out on the balanced connection and variable impedance matching by not using the 4 pin XLR.

I'm not claiming absolute expertise on this but other than for the e'stat option I don't see a benefit.


----------



## wazzupi

You guys have undersold this amp it took my focal elegia to a whole different level I didn't think they could reach. Now I'm scared to connect my final audio d8000pro xD


----------



## llamaluv

dadracer2 said:


> I'm not claiming absolute expertise on this but other than for the e'stat option I don't see a benefit.



There are anecdotal reports of a number of amps which have both headphone-outputs and speaker taps that actually sound better out of the speaker taps when using hard-to-drive headphones.

Though I'd be in agreement that since this is a headphone-first amplifer, it ought to sound best out of its headphone outputs. However, that's just an _a priori_ assumption. It would be nice to be able to verify this through direct experience.

Would like to get confirmation first that there's no issues with doing so first, however...


----------



## llamaluv

wazzupi said:


> You guys have undersold this amp it took my focal elegia to a whole different level I didn't think they could reach. Now I'm scared to connect my final audio d8000pro xD


Nice! Please do elaborate, when you get the chance...


----------



## wazzupi

llamaluv said:


> Nice! Please do elaborate, when you get the chance...


Well I'll describe my Elegia improvements, way wider soundstage imaging and dynamics big or small are insanely better. vocals take a  few steps back but sibilance is gone completely and vocals show off their emotion and grit while being cleaner, revealing more detail and clarity across the spectrum.bass is dynamic and punchy this amp is dead silent and creates a rock concert atmosphere when called upon.


----------



## wazzupi

Is it normal for the 300b tubes to sit loose like they kinda around if you move em slightly ?


----------



## jambaj0e (Jul 10, 2020)

Congrats on your Amp! By the way, when I use RCA cables between the HUGO TT2 Dax and the ha-300, mine is dead silent even 100% volume. It's only when I switch to XLR Cables that I'd get the hum between 95-100%. But I get better dynamics, though, so it's worth keeping since I'll never listen to music at 95% volume.

I am curious to hear how those Takatsuky 300Bs sound, since I hear they're pretty analytical. I'd believe the Psvane ACME 300b that I own have similar characteristics, which is more neutral, fast,very good separation with large soundstage, and emphasis in the midrage.

I myself use the Sylvania 6SN7W Metal base tubes, and they also have a really great luscious mids and extended mid-bass and bass. With my Audeze LCD-3, it's a great combo!






Dave01236 said:


> New user of the cayin ha300 amp here. I have seen people in the forums worried that it might not be the appropriate amp for them because of the supposed humming the amp has. I've had this amp for maybe a month now, and tried different tubes in it. So far, it has been DEAD silent for me, even at 100% volume. And I'm pretty sure this amp is dead silent for many others as well. Anyway, I can understand why people are concerned. If you're gonna spend over $4,000 on a headphone amp, it has to be perfect. And to me, it really is the perfect amp. I have used many tube amplifiers in the past, and also many tubes. I've used 6DJ8, 5998, 274B, ECC35, 6SN7, 6F8G. So far, the cayin ha300 with the 300B and 6SN7 tubes is the best setup I've ever had. You really can't go wrong with a 300B amp. The 300B tubes compared to many great rectifiers I've heard in the past, really have a magical sound. It helps reveal things in music that couldn't be revealed properly before. I really noticed that. They are really sweet sounding tubes. The 300B sound is tough to beat. The stock 300B tubes that come with the amp are pretty good already, although I didn't have the time to use them much. I bought a pair of takatsuki 300B tubes, and I truly believe they are the best 300B tubes out there with the western electric's and perhaps the psvane's. I really recommend tube rolling with this amp, it really does improve the sound even further! As for the 6sn7's, once again the stock tubes are good for starters. I have used the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters and the 1578 Melz (russian tubes) in the cayin ha300. The tung sol's are great sounding tubes really, but their midrange doesn't quite compare to the midrange of the Melz. Many consider the Melz as the holy grail of 6SN7. And I completely understand why. The midrange of those tubes is legendary. It truly is. My pair was made in the 80's, and I have a pair from '63 coming my way. Apparently the '63 tubes are better than the '80. So I can't wait to give those tubes a good listen! Previously, before I decided to buy a cayin ha300, I had the woo audio WA22. Amazing amp, really. But once again I had to buy something even better than what I already had. I've done that only what, 5 or 6 times so far (sigh). The cayin ha300, compared to the wa22, has more slam. The snare drum hits harder. There's a bigger soundstage, more precise imaging. Also, in some tracks I felt like the cymbal was literally next to me. So the highs are better for sure. There's also more clarity in my songs now. The cayin ha300 isn't cheap, but if you have a $1000 - $2000 amp and you want to upgrade to something even better, I absolutely recommend the cayin ha300!!


----------



## jambaj0e

wazzupi said:


> Is it normal for the 300b tubes to sit loose like they kinda around if you move em slightly ?



Mine does have a slight wiggle, but you do want to make sure you push them down hard to "click". I tend to keep my cage over my tubes that way nothing can accidentally bump into them.


----------



## wazzupi

jambaj0e said:


> Congrats on your Amp! By the way, when I use RCA cables between the HUGO TT2 Dax and the ha-300, mine is dead silent even 100% volume. It's only when I switch to XLR Cables that I'd get the hum between 95-100%. But I get better dynamics, though, so it's worth keeping since I'll never listen to music at 95% volume.
> 
> I am curious to hear how those Takatsuky 300Bs sound, since I hear they're pretty analytical. I'd believe the Psvane ACME 300b that I own have similar characteristics, which is more neutral, fast,very good separation with large soundstage, and emphasis in the midrage.
> 
> I myself use the Sylvania 6SN7W Metal base tubes, and they also have a really great luscious mids and extended mid-bass and bass. With my Audeze LCD-3, it's a great combo!


Have you tried xlr input only to se ?


----------



## wazzupi

jambaj0e said:


> Mine does have a slight wiggle, but you do want to make sure you push them down hard to "click". I tend to keep my cage over my tubes that way nothing can accidentally bump into them.


Would you say this click is light ?barely noticeable ?


----------



## Andykong

wazzupi said:


> My room is 10 x 14 (I measured it)idk if that's enough ?!?



This is a much better room dimension when compare to 10 x 10 in general, and I hope your room height is not close to 10ft, otherwise the standing wave in a square room dilemma still applied.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> Hi, speaking of speaker taps, a question for @Andykong and anyone else who may have experience with this. I can already anticipate what kind of response this question could elicit, but let me ask it anyway:
> 
> What if any differences in sound quality might one expect by connecting headphones to the speaker taps (by using a speaker adapter cable) instead of the conventional 1/4" or XLR headphone outputs?
> 
> Also, is it okay to connect headphones using the speaker taps in the first place? There are no issues with doing so with solid state amps, but I know it can be a different question with it comes to tube amps...





llamaluv said:


> There are anecdotal reports of a number of amps which have both headphone-outputs and speaker taps that actually sound better out of the speaker taps when using hard-to-drive headphones.
> 
> Though I'd be in agreement that since this is a headphone-first amplifer, it ought to sound best out of its headphone outputs. However, that's just an _a priori_ assumption. It would be nice to be able to verify this through direct experience.
> 
> Would like to get confirmation first that there's no issues with doing so first, however...



Quick answer, better connect your headphone to the headphone output.   The speaker output of HA-300  will drive your headphone, it won't blow up, but you'll bypass the impedance matched output of the HA-300 (i.e., the H/M/L impedance switch).

If you are using an amplifier that was designed primarily as integrated amplifier for speakers but with a headphone output bundled, then it is worth to give it a try, its likely that the speaker output and the headphone output are not coming from the same amplification circuit.   HA-300, on the other hand, were designed primarily as headphone amp and we have provide an extra set of output for the speaker application.  So they are the same set of output with different impedance loading in mind, the headphone output has provide full power from the amplification circuit already, you won't get any benefit by using the speaker output.


----------



## llamaluv

Andykong said:


> you won't get any benefit by using the speaker output


Thank you, makes sense!


----------



## wazzupi

https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/vacuum-tubes/products/tung-sol-6sn7gtb I bought a pair of these matched cryo and Kevin stash which is the best tube they have of these. Is it worth? Anyone have experience with these tubes?


----------



## Andykong

Dave01236 said:


> New user of the cayin ha300 amp here. I have seen people in the forums worried that it might not be the appropriate amp for them because of the supposed humming the amp has. I've had this amp for maybe a month now, and tried different tubes in it. So far, it has been DEAD silent for me, even at 100% volume. And I'm pretty sure this amp is dead silent for many others as well. Anyway, I can understand why people are concerned. If you're gonna spend over $4,000 on a headphone amp, it has to be perfect. And to me, it really is the perfect amp. I have used many tube amplifiers in the past, and also many tubes. I've used 6DJ8, 5998, 274B, ECC35, 6SN7, 6F8G. So far, the cayin ha300 with the 300B and 6SN7 tubes is the best setup I've ever had.
> 
> You really can't go wrong with a 300B amp. The 300B tubes compared to many great rectifiers I've heard in the past, really have a magical sound. It helps reveal things in music that couldn't be revealed properly before. I really noticed that. They are really sweet sounding tubes. The 300B sound is tough to beat. The stock 300B tubes that come with the amp are pretty good already, although I didn't have the time to use them much. I bought a pair of takatsuki 300B tubes, and I truly believe they are the best 300B tubes out there with the western electric's and perhaps the psvane's. I really recommend tube rolling with this amp, it really does improve the sound even further!
> 
> ...



Thank you so much, I hope your experience will clear the doubt of a lot of potential and new HA-300 users.   The 300B is a legendary tube in audiophile history, unfortunately we can hardly experience the full potential of the this Direct Heated Triode with speakers.  Its limited output power restricted the choice of speaker and music genre, so we tends to focus on the dreamy midrange and rich harmonic,  But with headphones amplifier, we can hear the 300B with authoritative presentation, full scale orchestra with stella dynamic, and intense rock music with outstanding transient and detail, this is one of the scenario that put headphones in a "better" position over speaker setup, IMHO.

Unfortunately Direct Heated Triodes are very sensitive to vibration and interference.  Making a dead silent headphone amplifier is 10 times more difficult than making a dead silent speaker amplifier, and setting up the amplifier plays a very important role in achieve dead silent as you described.  Experience tube amp. user probably can get this right quickly, and sharing first hand experience will certainly help each other.


----------



## dadracer2

I meant to ask this before now, but has anyone tried the Audio Note 4300E valves as a replacement for their 300b? They are made by PSVANE specially for Audio Note and feature molybdenum anodes. It look like they will cost around the same as PSVANE WE replicas or their Acme 300b.


----------



## wazzupi

dadracer2 said:


> I meant to ask this before now, but has anyone tried the Audio Note 4300E valves as a replacement for their 300b? They are made by PSVANE specially for Audio Note and feature molybdenum anodes. It look like they will cost around the same as PSVANE WE replicas or their Acme 300b.


never heard of em, I'm intrigued XD


----------



## koven

I kind of want an HA300, it seems to be a comparable alternative to WA33 at lesser price. But the QC issues between this and smaller HA-6A thread makes me nervous.. I cannot tell if Cayin has addressed QC improvements in newer units or not.


----------



## wazzupi (Jul 16, 2020)

koven said:


> I kind of want an HA300, it seems to be a comparable alternative to WA33 at lesser price. But the QC issues between this and smaller HA-6A thread makes me nervous.. I cannot tell if Cayin has addressed QC improvements in newer units or not.


I own the Cayin ha-300(about 2 weeks now) and I haven't had a single issue with it all stock it's the best Amp i've heard and or owned. I've owned the highest quality OTL Glenn amp, La Figaro 339 OTL tube amp, I've heard ampnsounds tube amps for extensive lengths of time, I've auditioned higher priced tube amps but I can't say I had enough time with them to be 100% confident.

PS I don't hear any tube sounds either, let alone a high noise floor and I'm using low ohm headphones. Dead Silent amp.


----------



## llamaluv

koven said:


> I kind of want an HA300, it seems to be a comparable alternative to WA33 at lesser price. But the QC issues between this and smaller HA-6A thread makes me nervous.. I cannot tell if Cayin has addressed QC improvements in newer units or not.



Oh nice, the HA300 is very much worth being interested in! 

FWIW, my unit has been problem-free since I got it last fall (I sold my WA33 last summer). And no hums that I haven't been able to isolate to belonging to specific tubes (and even in those instances, intermittent and not much of it).


----------



## Dave01236

A ha300 with *good *tubes is dead silent indeed. I have it paired with the yggdrasil DAC, and my hifiman he1000SE headphones. It is the dream setup I've always wanted to have ever since I bought my first tube amp, the shiit valhalla. I received my '63 6sn7 Melz russian tubes last week. I thought the '80 were very good, well the '63 takes what the '80 offers and makes it even better. They truly are the best 6sn7's I've ever heard, they are up there with the sylvania 6sn7w, ecc32 and some others. If someone wanted to get a new pair of 6sn7, I highly recommend the melz. For me its got the perfect midrange. Listening to some albums I've heard many, many times in the past is a brand new experience now. They do NOT sound the same!


----------



## wazzupi

Has anyone found 22DE4 tubes ?


----------



## dadracer2

wazzupi said:


> Has anyone found 22DE4 tubes ?


Sylvania and RCA both have this model. There are also quite a few on ebay as they are not expensive.


----------



## wazzupi

dadracer2 said:


> Sylvania and RCA both have this model. There are also quite a few on ebay as they are not expensive.


Well I like to match my tubes and quad matching doesn't seem to be a thing on eBay. thank you


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> Sylvania and RCA both have this model. There are also quite a few on ebay as they are not expensive.



Have you tried them and found any difference?


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> Have you tried them and found any difference?


No, just trying to help out the other chap in his request. I would not expect changing them to make any improvement on the sound quality though as they are power supply rectifiers aren't they? Now having said that I expect a flood of replies saying that's not the case!!!


----------



## Dave01236

dadracer2 said:


> No, just trying to help out the other chap in his request. I would not expect changing them to make any improvement on the sound quality though as they are power supply rectifiers aren't they? Now having said that I expect a flood of replies saying that's not the case!!!



Not many of us have tried different 22DE4'S so I don't think that'll happen haha. You can't really be doing any tube rolling with those. You can go with either RCA or Sylvania, as far as I know. I have 4 RCA's but I did order 4 sylvania 22DE4 tubes today. According to the seller, the sylvania's are ''far superior'' he did not comment on the sound but he did say that the sylvania's are more durable. Now is this true? Maybe. Maybe not. As for the sound I will see by myself once I recieve them.


----------



## Dave01236

It appears GE and raytheon also made this tube, but they don't seem to be as common as Sylvania / RCA.


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## dadracer2

Dave01236 said:


> It appears GE and raytheon also made this tube, but they don't seem to be as common as Sylvania / RCA.


 I'm not sure where I read it but I believe that Cayin tried a number of 22DE4 before going with the RCA. Maybe Andy knows or can comment? In the meantime yes it would be interesting to know if you do hear any difference with the Sylvanias. Are they NOS by the way?


----------



## Dave01236

dadracer2 said:


> I'm not sure where I read it but I believe that Cayin tried a number of 22DE4 before going with the RCA. Maybe Andy knows or can comment? In the meantime yes it would be interesting to know if you do hear any difference with the Sylvanias. Are they NOS by the way?


 
I remember reading something similar as well. Yes they are NOS from the 60/70 decade it appears.


----------



## wazzupi (Jul 24, 2020)

Any dac recommendations for the cayin ha-300 ? Square or round sound, delta sigma or r2r

PS. I think I like the stock 6sn7 over these tung sol 6sn7gtb from upsideaudio, which is pretty much I do prefer them, but could the tung sols need burn in ? how long do tubes take to burn in ?


----------



## dadracer2

wazzupi said:


> Any dac recommendations for the cayin ha-300 ? Square or round sound, delta sigma or r2r
> 
> PS. I think I like the stock 6sn7 over these tung sol 6sn7gtb from upsideaudio which is pretty much I do, but could they need burn in ? how long do tubes take to burn in ?


The choice is very wide but I wouldn't get hung up over the chip. It is all about implementation of the chip which gives the DAC its overall sound. There is of course the Cayin CS100 DAC which has valves in the output stage and should match well.


----------



## wazzupi

what are the blue arrows ?!?


----------



## dadracer2

wazzupi said:


> what are the blue arrows ?!?


I think it is to show you have 3 impedance settings on the amp to match a wide variety of headphones and in order that the headphones are not adversely affected in regard to their frequency response.

Either that or they are an air force display team........


----------



## wazzupi

dadracer2 said:


> I think it is to show you have 3 impedance settings on the amp to match a wide variety of headphones and in order that the headphones are not adversely affected in regard to their frequency response.
> 
> Either that or they are an air force display team........


LOL I want to believe it's the latter ? is that wrong ?


----------



## wazzupi

dadracer2 said:


> I think it is to show you have 3 impedance settings on the amp to match a wide variety of headphones and in order that the headphones are not adversely affected in regard to their frequency response.
> 
> Either that or they are an air force display team........


is there any pros/cons to skipping the input transformer ?


----------



## Andykong

wazzupi said:


> is there any pros/cons to skipping the input transformer ?



The input transformer converts balanced (XLR) input signal to single-ended before feeding to 6SN7.  If you are  using HA-300 XLR input. then you must go through input transformer, there is no other choice.  On the other hand, if you use RCA input, you'll by-pass the input transformer.


----------



## wazzupi

Andykong said:


> The input transformer converts balanced (XLR) input signal to single-ended before feeding to 6SN7.  If you are  using HA-300 XLR input. then you must go through input transformer, there is no other choice.  On the other hand, if you use RCA input, you'll by-pass the input transformer.


I have a XLR to rca adapters what's the difference of connecting XLR cables to rca adapters into the rca?


----------



## Andykong

wazzupi said:


> I have a XLR to rca adapters what's the difference of connecting XLR cables to rca adapters into the rca?



I suggest you use XLR input of HA-300, the input transformer in the amplifier should do a better then job then a passive adapter when converting balanced signal to single-ended.


----------



## dadracer2

What I wondered was if Cayin themselves or other HA300 owners have some recommended 6SN7 tubes to upgrade the amp. I am looking at present at the PSVANE range which seem to get a good press and have an excellent 6SN7 option but there are many others out there such as Tung Sol and so forth. Alternatively if there is no real recommended tubes and it is just a case of finding what the individual prefers from a sound quality then that's fine.


----------



## musicman59

IMO the best sounding 6SN7 is the NOS TungSol Round Plates/Black Glass. Another nice one is the Sylvania short bottle Brown base and Chrome too.


----------



## dadracer2

musicman59 said:


> IMO the best sounding 6SN7 is the NOS TungSol Round Plates/Black Glass. Another nice one is the Sylvania short bottle Brown base and Chrome too.


Thanks, I will check these out.


----------



## wazzupi

musicman59 said:


> IMO the best sounding 6SN7 is the NOS TungSol Round Plates/Black Glass. Another nice one is the Sylvania short bottle Brown base and Chrome too.


TungSol Round Plates/Black Glass is this the Sylvania one?? Metal base? Or am I confusing it


----------



## musicman59

Yes, you are confusing them...
Here is a picture.


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## musicman59

These are the Sylvania...


----------



## wazzupi

These are the best Tubes i've ever heard.


----------



## musicman59

Yes, those Sylvania supposed to be pretty good too but I have never tried them. They are difficult to find.


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## wazzupi (Aug 23, 2020)

musicman59 said:


> Yes, those Sylvania supposed to be pretty good too but I have never tried them. They are difficult to find.


I paid $200 for 1 and it broke after a month  (after the return policy) and the guy sold me one for $110 cuz it broke, but he doesn't have anymore now . i see a few on ebay.

ps this is when i had a Glenn OTL amp and only need 1


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## dadracer2

I am getting all the love for the large variety of NOS 6SN7 out there but it is difficult to know what to choose and also to determine the provenance of these valves. Does anyone have a good recommendation of a new/modern 6SN7 as I would feel a bit more certain about them and also if they were to expire at least I would have some warranty.


----------



## wazzupi

dadracer2 said:


> I am getting all the love for the large variety of NOS 6SN7 out there but it is difficult to know what to choose and also to determine the provenance of these valves. Does anyone have a good recommendation of a new/modern 6SN7 as I would feel a bit more certain about them and also if they were to expire at least I would have some warranty.


Hmm I tried to go this path with the tung sol from upscale audio I truly disliked the tubes and I paid for the highest quality version, cryo. I'd like to know as well, is there a tube that's new production, sounds really well ??


----------



## wazzupi

I'm considering getting Klipish Heresy IV, anyone know if  the Cayin HA-300 will be more than enough for them ?


----------



## dadracer2

The sensitivity on Klipsch speakers seems to be calculated in a unique manner but in reality is about 3db overstated compared to  most manufacturers. So if we say that's 99-3 , you should have a real world 96. The impedance curve is supposed to be reasonable so it comes to the size of your room and how loud you listen to your music. If you have a medium size room of about 1200 cubic feet or less as long as you don't listen at crazy levels then I'd say you should be ok.

My speakers are 96db and with a flattish impedance curve and need between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock on the volume dial to give sufficient listening volume.

Of course I'm sure any decent dealer should let you try before you buy?


----------



## Treva (Sep 17, 2020)

G'day. New HA300 owner here from "down under". Bought mine from Jaben Singapore. Shipped direct from China to home. I notice it is a 220 volt model. So I've had to go and get a mains regulator that puts out a constant 220 volts from the wall mains which is 240 ish volts. As you can see from the attached photo, more often than not, the mains is frequently 246 volts +. Now that is outside the 220v tolerance, is it not?   (I have a PrimaLuna pre-amp, bought locally.  That has "240v" stickers on the amp and on the box.  Made in the Cayin factory, so I am reliably informed.)


----------



## Treva

A basic question: when do people start listening to music after powering on this tube amp?  I'm used to the PL where there the system is 'mute' for 30 seconds while the system warms up and then a green LED comes on.  Thanks.


----------



## Benny-x

Treva said:


> G'day. New HA300 owner here from "down under". Bought mine from Jaben Singapore. Shipped direct from China to home. I notice it is a 220 volt model. So I've had to go and get a mains regulator that puts out a constant 220 volts from the wall mains which is 240 ish volts. As you can see from the attached photo, more often than not, the mains is frequently 246 volts +. Now that is outside the 220v tolerance, is it not?


The general voltage tolerance is +/- 10% rating, so in this case, one rated for 220V should work fine at either 200V or 240V. I'm not sure what the situation is with feeding it a constant 246V like what you showed, but as a personal person, I'd skip the step-down transformer and run it direct in that case. I don't know whether the internals are actually different for 220V, 230V, and 240V countries, but I have my suspicions that there aren't any in a mass market product. As a personal person, not as an advisor. 

In my case, I'm running a 220V version at 219-231V, in a 220V country. All without any issue.


----------



## Benny-x

Treva said:


> A basic question: when do people start listening to music after powering on this tube amp?  I'm used to the PL where there the system is 'mute' for 30 seconds while the system warms up and then a green LED comes on.  Thanks.


I have always warmed up my tube gear for >30mins before listening, and that it was I do now too. That is also what led me to following solidstate for a while, it's much more convenient about the power-up and power-down cycles.


----------



## Treva

Benny-x said:


> The general voltage tolerance is +/- 10% rating, so in this case, one rated for 220V should work fine at either 200V or 240V. I'm not sure what the situation is with feeding it a constant 246V like what you showed, but as a personal person, I'd skip the step-down transformer and run it direct in that case. I don't know whether the internals are actually different for 220V, 230V, and 240V countries, but I have my suspicions that there aren't any in a mass market product. As a personal person, not as an advisor.
> 
> In my case, I'm running a 220V version at 219-231V, in a 220V country. All without any issue.


Thanks for your experiences Benny-x.  I did plug the HA300 straight into the AC mains outlet (that's supposed to be 240v) before delivery of AC mains regulator.  Worked and sounded fine.  However, it was obvious the Power Supply Transformer was much hotter (hot to touch after a good listening session) running from the wall socket c/w running from 220v from the regulator (just very warm).


----------



## ThanatosVI

can anyone compare this amp to the little brother Ha-6A?

Which differences in sound signature do they have?


----------



## Treva

ThanatosVI said:


> can anyone compare this amp to the little brother Ha-6A?
> 
> Which differences in sound signature do they have?


According the comments section in  , this reviewer is supposed to be doing a HA-6A <-> HA300 comparison soon.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Treva said:


> According the comments section in  , this reviewer is supposed to be doing a HA-6A <-> HA300 comparison soon.



Thank you


----------



## Andykong (Oct 8, 2020)

Treva said:


> G'day. New HA300 owner here from "down under". Bought mine from Jaben Singapore. Shipped direct from China to home. I notice it is a 220 volt model. So I've had to go and get a mains regulator that puts out a constant 220 volts from the wall mains which is 240 ish volts. As you can see from the attached photo, more often than not, the mains is frequently 246 volts +. Now that is outside the 220v tolerance, is it not?   (I have a PrimaLuna pre-amp, bought locally.  That has "240v" stickers on the amp and on the box.  Made in the Cayin factory, so I am reliably informed.)





Treva said:


> Thanks for your experiences Benny-x.  I did plug the HA300 straight into the AC mains outlet (that's supposed to be 240v) before delivery of AC mains regulator.  Worked and sounded fine.  However, it was obvious the Power Supply Transformer was much hotter (hot to touch after a good listening session) running from the wall socket c/w running from 220v from the regulator (just very warm).



For amplifier wearing 220V label, our QA process will test the amplifier with 230V +/- 5% before the amplifier leave the production line, so 218V to 242V are consider normal power supply to the amplifier, and 207V to 253V are still acceptable.  I won't worry about 246V, it certainly will run warmer than feeding with regulated 220V, that's natural even when we purposively design an amplifier for 240V +/- 5%.

By the way, you live in Australia and buy your HA300 from Jaben Singapore?  That's kind of weird.


----------



## Andykong

ThanatosVI said:


> can anyone compare this amp to the little brother Ha-6A?
> 
> Which differences in sound signature do they have?



@project86 had published a very detail HA300 review and he is working on HA-6A review right now, with a bit of luck, we should be able to read his review on Darko very soon.


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> @project86 had published a very detail HA300 review and he is working on HA-6A review right now, with a bit of luck, we should be able to read his review on Darko very soon.


It is here.......well kind of.......good review though

https://darko.audio/2020/10/moving-upfield-the-cayin-ha-6a/


----------



## Treva

Can I / Should I connect 4 ohm speakers to the HA-300?  I've read in the forum the speaker outlets on the HA-300 are 8 ohm.  Hopefully, by the end of this year, I will get my hands on some Tekton super-sensitive 96 db speakers. (Very, very, very, very long lead time to order many Tekton models.)    They are really meant for my main system. which has a pair of solid state mono power amps.  Hence the 4 ohm Tektons have been ordered .


----------



## Treva

Andykong said:


> By the way, you live in Australia and buy your HA300 from Jaben Singapore?  That's kind of weird.



Price was cheaper from Singapore.  Australia seems to have the Distributor-Dealer hierarchy, each adding their own margin to the price.


----------



## dadracer2

Treva said:


> Can I / Should I connect 4 ohm speakers to the HA-300?  I've read in the forum the speaker outlets on the HA-300 are 8 ohm.  Hopefully, by the end of this year, I will get my hands on some Tekton super-sensitive 96 db speakers. (Very, very, very, very long lead time to order many Tekton models.)    They are really meant for my main system. which has a pair of solid state mono power amps.  Hence the 4 ohm Tektons have been ordered .


It says 4-8 ohms in the manual, so it might depend how much of the frequency range the Tektons go below 4 ohms and what the minimum is. Maybe send a PM to Andy Kong for his feedback just to be certain?


----------



## jambaj0e

Treva said:


> Can I / Should I connect 4 ohm speakers to the HA-300?  I've read in the forum the speaker outlets on the HA-300 are 8 ohm.  Hopefully, by the end of this year, I will get my hands on some Tekton super-sensitive 96 db speakers. (Very, very, very, very long lead time to order many Tekton models.)    They are really meant for my main system. which has a pair of solid state mono power amps.  Hence the 4 ohm Tektons have been ordered .



I have the Tekton Lore Reference with my HA-300, and unlike my LCD-3 that I usually leave at 9-10 o'clock, I'd put the Lore Reference at 2-3 o'clock. It drives it nicely, but because of my bedroom arrangement, I'm not getting the best out of my room positioning, so I still listen predominantly on my LCD-3, which is absolutely sublime, especially after with combo of Chord HUGO TT2, Psvane ACME 300b tubes, Sylvania 6SN7W metal base, and most recently the usb cable I can't recommend enough, the Sablon 2020 USB cable!


----------



## Marutks (Oct 30, 2020)

https://darko.audio/2020/10/moving-upfield-the-cayin-ha-6a/

_"Cayin has a slightly louder noise floor"_

Sounds like an understatement.


----------



## wazzupi

My ha300 has no noise floor unless u max it out on the knob... At any settings.


----------



## jambaj0e

wazzupi said:


> My ha300 has no noise floor unless u max it out on the knob... At any settings.



Same, I can only hear noise on max volume knob and ONLY from XLR input, not RCA input


----------



## dadracer2

Marutks said:


> https://darko.audio/2020/10/moving-upfield-the-cayin-ha-6a/
> 
> _"Cayin has a slightly louder noise floor"_
> 
> Sounds like an understatement.


. 
No, don't think so. I think it's an honest review. Most valve amps will have a higher noise floor than an SS amp. Will it affect your enjoyment of the music at normal levels? Almost certainly not. Do you prefer the reviewer to tell you something factually incorrect instead?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Marutks said:


> https://darko.audio/2020/10/moving-upfield-the-cayin-ha-6a/
> 
> _"Cayin has a slightly louder noise floor"_
> 
> Sounds like an understatement.


It's not though,  depending on headphone and tubes it is nearly nonexistant.
In those cases where it is existant it still isn't problematic most of the time

Sure it would be better if the left tube Socket wasn't as sensitive to tube noise and if the noise weren't there, no matter the setup.
However especially for planars it's no issue, and shouldn't scare people off of an otherwise excellent amp.


----------



## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> It is here.......well kind of.......good review though
> 
> https://darko.audio/2020/10/moving-upfield-the-cayin-ha-6a/



Thank you very much for sharing the link, I was occupied recently and didn't notice the review is online already.


----------



## Andykong (Oct 31, 2020)

Treva said:


> Can I / Should I connect 4 ohm speakers to the HA-300?  I've read in the forum the speaker outlets on the HA-300 are 8 ohm.  Hopefully, by the end of this year, I will get my hands on some Tekton super-sensitive 96 db speakers. (Very, very, very, very long lead time to order many Tekton models.)    They are really meant for my main system. which has a pair of solid state mono power amps.  Hence the 4 ohm Tektons have been ordered .



Yes, you can connect 4 ohm speakers to the speaker output of HA-300.  4 ohm 96dB is a safe loading to HA-300.



Treva said:


> Price was cheaper from Singapore.  Australia seems to have the Distributor-Dealer hierarchy, each adding their own margin to the price.



I understand your decision but I have to remind you that this is a risky move, your Singapore dealer was carrying out an unauthorized sales transaction, this might cost them their dealership, and you might lost your warranty.


----------



## Andykong (Oct 31, 2020)

Marutks said:


> https://darko.audio/2020/10/moving-upfield-the-cayin-ha-6a/
> 
> _"Cayin has a slightly louder noise floor"_
> 
> Sounds like an understatement.



May I provide the full sentence from others reference?

John Grandberg said "Compared to our Pro-Ject DS2 baseline, the Cayin has a slightly louder noise floor" in his HA-6A review.

For the record, Head Box DS2 is a solid state headphone amplifier, and is rated at 2 x 550 mW (in 33 Ohms, both channels driven) in their specification.  HA-6A, on the other hands, delivers 2 x 1600mW in Low impedance setting (KT88, Ultralinear, Balanced phone out).


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> Thank you very much for sharing the link, I was occupied recently and didn't notice the review is online already.


No problem, wished though that he had given a bit more of a sound comparison between the HA6A and HA300.


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> No problem, wished though that he had given a bit more of a sound comparison between the HA6A and HA300.


Yeah direct comparison would be nice.
Also did anyone compare the HA-300 to the woo wa5-le ?
Both use the same tube setup, so I'd be very interested in the sonical differences


----------



## jambaj0e (Oct 31, 2020)

ThanatosVI said:


> Yeah direct comparison would be nice.
> Also did anyone compare the HA-300 to the woo wa5-le ?
> Both use the same tube setup, so I'd be very interested in the sonical differences



I have had compared the WA5-LE and with stock tubes, the HA-300 just have a sweeter, more musical sound and timbre. The WA5-LE may be slightly warmer and have a bit better mid-bass but that's all I remember that stood out. If you read about the WA5-LE, majority of people said upgrading the stock 300bs is a must. That being said, I love the Psvane ACME 300bs I have in my HA-300 now..


----------



## ThanatosVI

jambaj0e said:


> I have had compared the WA5-LE and with stock tubes, the HA-300 just have a sweeter, more musical sound and timbre. The WA5-LE may slightly warmer, and have a bit better mid-bass but that's all I remember that stood out. If you read about the WA5-LE, majority of people said upgrading the stock 300bs is a must. That being said, I love the Psvane ACME 300bs I have in my HA-300 now..


Thanks for the comparison


----------



## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> No problem, wished though that he had given a bit more of a sound comparison between the HA6A and HA300.



The review was part of a series of four "mainstream" high-end headphone amplifiers, so only limited reference to HA-300 make perfect sense, maybe  @project86 will share "additional" impression at HA-6A thread later, or he'll drop by here as well.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> The review was part of a series of four "mainstream" high-end headphone amplifiers, so only limited reference to HA-300 make perfect sense, maybe  @project86 will share "additional" impression at HA-6A thread later, or he'll drop by here as well.



He's one of the reasons I bought the HA-300, too. Thoroughly enjoying it, as paired with the Hugo TT2 + LCD-3 and everything in between.


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> The review was part of a series of four "mainstream" high-end headphone amplifiers, so only limited reference to HA-300 make perfect sense, maybe  @project86 will share "additional" impression at HA-6A thread later, or he'll drop by here as well.


Yes thanks I had understood that as I had spoken with John before it was published.

Do you think that Cayin would make a compact desktop headphone amp (no batteries) using the Raytheon JAN6418 please? Say 120mm square footprint with RCA inputs and 3.5mm SE and 4.4mm Bal headphone output. Oh and plus a switch for different headphone impedances. You can call it the Cayin HA3A. Doesn't need to be a portable just compact for in an office/ at home (where it looks like we are going to be for quite a while). I know there is the N3Pro but it doesn't have inputs and the forthcoming C9 amp uses Nutubes not the JAN6418 and is portable.


----------



## Treva (Nov 5, 2020)

jambaj0e said:


> I have the Tekton Lore Reference with my HA-300, and unlike my LCD-3 that I usually leave at 9-10 o'clock, I'd put the Lore Reference at 2-3 o'clock. It drives it nicely, but because of my bedroom arrangement, I'm not getting the best out of my room positioning, so I still listen predominantly on my LCD-3, which is absolutely sublime, especially after with combo of Chord HUGO TT2, Psvane ACME 300b tubes, Sylvania 6SN7W metal base, and most recently the usb cable I can't recommend enough, the Sablon 2020 USB cable!


I too have the "bedroom arrangement" with a Chord DAC.  (It's a small 'shoebox' bedroom which has become the home office with all this wfh due to COVID.)   One interview with Rob Watts I saw around last Christmas time talked about how the HUGO TT2 has a much better output stage than the HUGO 2.  I have the HUGO 2, so the HA-300 is my output stage .  I have the Sony MDR-Z1R headphones which I'm always testing with the volume on the HA-300 set at the lowest possible setting i.e. 7 o'clock.  I'm listening with the balanced Sony cable on a 4.4mm to XLR 4-pin converter.  It's truly incredible how much detail retrieval the Chord DAC has, and, how incredibly wide the soundstage + so much "dynamic range" is still there at the lowest volume setting on the HA-300 !


----------



## honeyjjack

Has anyone heard both the ha300 and ampsandsound amps? Trying to pick between the mogwai and ha300 but cant seem to find any comparisons.


----------



## jambaj0e

honeyjjack said:


> Has anyone heard both the ha300 and ampsandsound amps? Trying to pick between the mogwai and ha300 but cant seem to find any comparisons.



I have with the Qutest & LCD-3, and at least for me the Amp&Sounds was a bit too dark and mids recessed/highs rolled off with that combo. The HA-300 was sweeter and better extended, with a far larger soundstage. It only got better after tube rolling to my current setup with the pair Psvane ACME 300b and NOS pair of Sylvania 6SN7W metal tubes


----------



## vkenz

Just got my HA-300 for a week now of burn in listening on default tubes.


----------



## terirapt

*New HA-300 fuse blown 3 times*

Just got my HA-300 and it was dead on arrival; the set can be turned on with tubes lighting up but there is no sound. Was advised by the dealer to change the fuse (160ma) inside the power supply; and then all seems fine. Then next day, the same fuse blew again twice. Set was taken to a service centre and I was advised that the 6SN7 tubes are bad and are causing the fuse to blow. I have changed the 6SN7 tubes and is running in the amp now as I am typing this.

A few questions on my mind and I appreciate all the advises :

1) Is it true that the 6SN7 is causing the problem? Read somewhere that only the bad output tubes i.e. 300b tubes can cause this particular fuse to blow.  Other faulty tubes, what else can cause the fuse to blow?
2) With the fuse blowing 3 times, will it affect the other components of the amp such that it has degraded sound quality, and also future reliability of the amp? Was thinking should I insist on the exchange for a new set.

Honestly, my confidence in my HA-300 set is severely dented.

Thank you in advanced for your advises.


----------



## vkenz

terirapt said:


> *New HA-300 fuse blown 3 times*
> 
> Just got my HA-300 and it was dead on arrival; the set can be turned on with tubes lighting up but there is no sound. Was advised by the dealer to change the fuse (160ma) inside the power supply; and then all seems fine. Then next day, the same fuse blew again twice. Set was taken to a service centre and I was advised that the 6SN7 tubes are bad and are causing the fuse to blow. I have changed the 6SN7 tubes and is running in the amp now as I am typing this.
> 
> ...



I think it should be fine.  The fuse is there to prevent damage on your equipment.  Maybe the tubes just didn't survive the shipment.  They do put the tubes in the unit when they ship it.  Thank goodness mine was in good condition with it arrive.  But not my darkvoice, that one they didn't put the tubes in to the unit and I have to do it myself and that one got hum issues until I have to remove and put it back in again.


----------



## dadracer2

terirapt said:


> *New HA-300 fuse blown 3 times*
> 
> Just got my HA-300 and it was dead on arrival; the set can be turned on with tubes lighting up but there is no sound. Was advised by the dealer to change the fuse (160ma) inside the power supply; and then all seems fine. Then next day, the same fuse blew again twice. Set was taken to a service centre and I was advised that the 6SN7 tubes are bad and are causing the fuse to blow. I have changed the 6SN7 tubes and is running in the amp now as I am typing this.
> 
> ...


It could be something minor but if it were me I would be having a very frank discussion with the dealer who supplied it and ask for it to be replaced. I am not sure where you are but contact Andy Kong who is the marketing guy at Cayin and who often reads this forum and see what he has to say. I am no electrical expert but if your fuses are blowing then hopefully they have protected the rest of the circuitry. At the very least your dealer owes you an upgrade set of 6SN7s free of charge.


----------



## project86

I've blown many fuses in many devices over the years. It's never fun, but also not something to worry about once the cause is determined and taken care of. Think of it like tripping a circuit breaker at your home. That happens to protect everything else in the system from harm, and no damage or degradation should be expected.

And yes, bad tubes in any stage of the device can lead to unpredictable results including fuses blowing.


----------



## vkenz

project86 said:


> I've blown many fuses in many devices over the years. It's never fun, but also not something to worry about once the cause is determined and taken care of. Think of it like tripping a circuit breaker at your home. That happens to protect everything else in the system from harm, and no damage or degradation should be expected.
> 
> And yes, bad tubes in any stage of the device can lead to unpredictable results including fuses blowing.


Will he get replacement tubes FOC?


----------



## terirapt

vkenz said:


> Will he get replacement tubes FOC?


Yes, I will be getting replacement for the Shuguang WE6SN7 tubes


----------



## dadracer2

That seems reasonable.


----------



## Andykong

terirapt said:


> *New HA-300 fuse blown 3 times*
> 
> Just got my HA-300 and it was dead on arrival; the set can be turned on with tubes lighting up but there is no sound. Was advised by the dealer to change the fuse (160ma) inside the power supply; and then all seems fine. Then next day, the same fuse blew again twice. Set was taken to a service centre and I was advised that the 6SN7 tubes are bad and are causing the fuse to blow. I have changed the 6SN7 tubes and is running in the amp now as I am typing this.
> 
> ...



Sorry for all the inconvenient and disturb caused, I sincerely hope you can sit back and enjoy your HA-300 peacefully from here on.

I can confirm that not "only the bad output tubes i.e. 300b tubes can cause this particular fuse to blow", a bad driver tube can cause also cause overload and blow the fuse.


----------



## jambaj0e

terirapt said:


> Yes, I will be getting replacement for the Shuguang WE6SN7 tubes



Are you looking to roll tubes in the near future? What are you already looking into?


----------



## terirapt (Dec 25, 2020)

Thank you all for the advises, really appreciate it.

As for tube rolling, has been reading through this forum and probably looking at Psvane CV181 TII and Acme 300b. I am more into Jazz and Classical, and looking for details, holographic soundstaging with proper instrument placing, airiness (especially for strings), warmth/sweetness but not too slow and thick. Not sure if I make sense? Any advise on possible tube combinations? Headphones are He1000se, Utopia and Abyss TC. DAC is Rockna Wavelight fed with Aurender X100.

One more question : regarding the 22DE4, they don’t seem to be that expensive now but looks like not easily available especially in quad. Do they last long on the HA-300, or should we start getting spares before High demand-Low supply drive the prices up? And as they don’t seem to be easily available in quad, can I mix and match different brands?

And wishing all a Merriest Christmas!


----------



## jambaj0e

terirapt said:


> Thank you all for the advises, really appreciate it.
> 
> As for tube rolling, has been reading through this forum and probably looking at Psvane CV181 TII and Acme 300b. I am more into Jazz and Classical, and looking for details, holographic soundstaging with proper instrument placing, airiness (especially for strings), warmth/sweetness but not too slow and thick. Not sure if I make sense? Any advise on possible tube combinations? Headphones are He1000se, Utopia and Abyss TC. DAC is Rockna Wavelight fed with Aurender X100.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's what I had, except I upgraded the CV181 TII to a NOS pair of Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Tubes. It's stunning how much more wider and larger the soundstage is compared to my HUGO TT2's headphone amp. There's also a bit more midrage sweetness, too. I much prefer it over the TT2/


----------



## jambaj0e

Oh hello upgraded power cable! Gotta say, going from my Morrow Audio MAP3 1m power cable ($379) to the Audioquest Thunder 2m power cable ($999) immediately brought SO much more clarity, separation, dynamic range, and so much texture to the Cayin HA-300! (Box cutter to show size)



It is as if another veil that I didn't even realize was there got lifted. This is so much more noticeable w/ cymbal and hi-hats where I can really hear more texture, but also applies to electric bass guitar. Voices are also more purer-sounding.

Songs listened:
- Fleetwood Mac: The Chain (2001 remaster)
- Friday Night Plans - HONDA
 - Dead Can Dance - Song of the Stars (remaster)
- Yerin Baek - Popo (How deep is our love?)
 - Flannel Graph - Pure Imagination
 - Seatbelt - Tank! (Cowboy Bebop OST)
 - Selena Gomez - Lose You to Love Me
 - Julia Michaels - Issues
 - Polo & Pan - Baraka
 - Billie Eilish - Listen Before I go
 - Billy Joel - The Ballad of Billy the Kid
 - Jung Seung Hwan - Across the Universe
 - Victor Wooten - Back to India
 -  Great White - Rock Me (2001 remaster)
 - Jacques Loussier Trio - JS Bach: Fugue in G minor (Arr for Jazz Trio)

Only bad thing is that this cable with its braiding is very very stiff. As you can see, I can't push the HA-300 close enough to its original position



Here's how it looks compared to my Morrow Audio MAP3:



Here's the closeup of the termination ends. That device attached to one end is their "noise-trapping" DBS pack (Dielectric Bias System):





Audioquest DBS Pack

Here's the box and carrying/protective case:






Now, I'm waiting for the PS Audio Stellar Power Plant 3 to arrive, but once that arrives, the Thunder will go from the wall to the P3, while the HA-300 will get the Morrow Audio MAP3... although I am now pretty damn tempted to get a 2nd 1m Thunder to go from the Power Plant 3 to the HA-300!


----------



## Sampajanna

Hi. Love the sound from my Cayin HA300. Anyone know why the stock tubes would make a stuttering noise in the right channel that completely goes away when I switch the tubes? It seems like one is made for right and one for left. Could that be? Odd...

Those metal base Sylvanias are now very expensive and some sites say they have a high failure rate. I already tried a Ken rad 6sn7, which failed and then teh "Bad Boy," which I thought were worse than the stock tubes. Thinking of either the Psvanne or maybe Melz 1578 now....

Also, I have to say, in case it matters to anyone, IMO Cayin's customer service is really lame. They just shuffle you back to your dealer no matter what your issue is, even if asking for advice. Maybe that is just my bad luck or dude was having a bad day on the occasions I contacted them, but over 8 months I asked 3 questions and got a very curt email back each time saying basically: go ask ur dealer. They seem polite in these forums, but I found them unhelpful to say the least. And I dont have a good relationship to my dealer or any at all, in fact. So I would recommend buying this amp from a good dealer that can help you if you have any issues and not expect Cayin to be of much help.


----------



## Andykong

terirapt said:


> Thank you all for the advises, really appreciate it.
> 
> As for tube rolling, has been reading through this forum and probably looking at Psvane CV181 TII and Acme 300b. I am more into Jazz and Classical, and looking for details, holographic soundstaging with proper instrument placing, airiness (especially for strings), warmth/sweetness but not too slow and thick. Not sure if I make sense? Any advise on possible tube combinations? Headphones are He1000se, Utopia and Abyss TC. DAC is Rockna Wavelight fed with Aurender X100.
> 
> ...



Just check with the engineers, the 22DE4 as rectifier tube can last almost forever.  Well, put that into the context of a tube amplifier, that probably means 5 to 10 years.   

The four 22DE4 are supposed to work independently from each other, their whole point is to minimize the interference between different power supply circuit, so if you want or need to replace them, you can do that per piece without any matching.


----------



## Andykong

Sampajanna said:


> Hi. Love the sound from my Cayin HA300. Anyone know why the stock tubes would make a stuttering noise in the right channel that completely goes away when I switch the tubes? It seems like one is made for right and one for left. Could that be? Odd...
> 
> Those metal base Sylvanias are now very expensive and some sites say they have a high failure rate. I already tried a Ken rad 6sn7, which failed and then teh "Bad Boy," which I thought were worse than the stock tubes. Thinking of either the Psvanne or maybe Melz 1578 now....
> 
> Also, I have to say, in case it matters to anyone, IMO Cayin's customer service is really lame. They just shuffle you back to your dealer no matter what your issue is, even if asking for advice. Maybe that is just my bad luck or dude was having a bad day on the occasions I contacted them, but over 8 months I asked 3 questions and got a very curt email back each time saying basically: go ask ur dealer. They seem polite in these forums, but I found them unhelpful to say the least. And I dont have a good relationship to my dealer or any at all, in fact. So I would recommend buying this amp from a good dealer that can help you if you have any issues and not expect Cayin to be of much help.



Have you tried to swap back the tube to right channel?  If the stuttering goes away, then its likely a bad contact during tube installation.  On the other hand, it can be the vacuum tube has a different level of sensitivity to interference, and in your case, the "right" tube is more sensitive then the "left" tube, so the right tube position has more interference then the left tube position, so when you swapped the tube, the more sensitive tubes goes to the less interference position and solved the problem.  This happens with NOS tubes but less common with stock tubes which are fresh from tube manufacturer production line.


----------



## Sampajanna

Andykong said:


> Have you tried to swap back the tube to right channel?  If the stuttering goes away, then its likely a bad contact during tube installation.  On the other hand, it can be the vacuum tube has a different level of sensitivity to interference, and in your case, the "right" tube is more sensitive then the "left" tube, so the right tube position has more interference then the left tube position, so when you swapped the tube, the more sensitive tubes goes to the less interference position and solved the problem.  This happens with NOS tubes but less common with stock tubes which are fresh from tube manufacturer production line.


If I switch them back it comes back  but switch again and compleytely gone ... So it mast be this sensitivity issue. These are the stock tubes though. Not NOS


----------



## Andykong

Sampajanna said:


> If I switch them back it comes back  but switch again and compleytely gone ... So it mast be this sensitivity issue. These are the stock tubes though. Not NOS



I know, that's why I said this is less common.

The noisy position in near the center of the amplifier?


----------



## Sampajanna

Andykong said:


> I know, that's why I said this is less common.
> 
> The noisy position in near the center of the amplifier?


No it is in the right headphone only... sputtering sound. then switch the two 6sn7 and issue is gone.


----------



## Dave01236 (Jan 12, 2021)

Hi fellow headfiers. I bought the cayin ha300 in June 2020. 7 months of fun, and it's not over yet. I tried many tubes (many of them are 6n8s melz tubes) and in the past few months that's all I've been rolling. I tried different years of manufacture (1948-1950-1952) I also have two matched pairs of melz 1578 (the real ones with 5 holes in the plates) one pair from 1963 and one from 1980 I believe. My conclusion : year 1948,1950 and 1952 are the best ones. If you can get two of the same year, even if they're not a matched pair, they will sound very similar to a matched pair from 1963, and they're 3 times cheaper. I managed to get some tubes from those years of manufacture (1948-1950-1952) for only $30 each. Nowadays you get a matched pair of 1578's for up to $150. I'm pretty confident to say that the Melz tubes, whether they're 6n8s or 1578, are in the top 3 of the best tubes you could use in the cayin ha300. Plus, they're very cheap and easy to get

Of course if you are into tube rolling, you will want to try as many 6sn7 tubes as possible. Because tubes will sound different for everyone, and especially on every amp. So far I have tried the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters, sylvania 6sn7w metal base, melz tubes, the sylvania bad boys and the stock tubes. The bad boys did glow in my cayin ha300  but gave me no sound. I tried them in my woo audio wa22 and oddly enough, I did get sound. Unfortunately the cayin is a much bigger beast so I do not use the wa22 anymore. Sadly I had to send the bad boys back to the seller. They are supposed to work in the cayin ha300 since 6sn7GT is supported by the amp. Unfortunately, it wasn't the case for me. I wonder if anyone has had issues like this one with their ha300 on any pair of tubes?

I will rate the tubes below :

1: Tung Sol 6f8g
2: Melz tubes
3: Sylvania 6sn7w metal base
4: Stock Tubes

I won't say much about the stock tubes because meh, they are stock tubes. They're not bad, far from that. But they just don't compare to many, many tubes out there. The sylvania metal base tubes, let's just say I was disappointed. Many, many claim that they are the best 6sn7 tubes out there. Now I say : it depends. For me, they sounded boring. I'm not sure if it's because of the amp or my headphones the he1000SE. Maybe I got a bad pair. Maybe I just don't like their sound. Plus, they are very, very expensive. I'm pretty sure that the guy who I sold the tubes to will be 3 times happier with the sylvania tubes than I was  !

Now the melz tubes and the 6f8g's. So far these are my favorite tubes in the cayin ha300. Their midrange is simply magnificent. Vocals are great, acoustics are great. You have amazing bass as well. I had a lot of difficulty choosing one pair or the other. In the end, I feel like the 6f8g's offer a slightly bigger soundstage. I also prefer the tone of the 6f8g's. They just sound very natural and they don't add any coloration to the sound. You can get adapters for these on ebay no problem, and they aren't that expensive either.

Conclusion : I like this amp very much, compared to my woo audio wa22 it has a huge soundstage. Better bass (on some albums I did not hear many details, but now I do) , better instrument separation (thanks to the 300B magic) , now cymbals are more detailed than ever. The kick drums have a lot more impact. I could go on and on and on but I'm not very good at describing what I hear. Just being honest. I just know that I do not regret my decision buying this amp, simply because it kicks ass! And that the 300B tubes that I currently own (takatsuki 300B) are definitely the main factor in my amp right now. These are getting very rare, and lately they've been selling for absurd prices. People often compare them to the western electric's, and for good reason. I like them very much, let's just say I don't miss the stock 300B'S at all.

If anyone has recommendations for tubes to roll in this amp, please tell me because I'm not done yet !


----------



## terirapt

*How do I know if I am clipping the HA-300?*

I read that the ideal speakers for the 300b amplifiers are the high sensitivity (preferably high 90s?) and/or flat high impedance ones (I see that HA-300 manual states 4-8 ohms). However I am using a pair of Spendor Classic 3/1 (rated 88 sensitivity, 8 ohms, 25-150 watts ), and I am concerned of damaging the speakers due to underpower. I read that speakers will distort when the amp clips, but also read that tube amp may not result in audible distortion when clipping? Thus I am confused how would I know if I am clipping the HA-300? Does the VU meter help ie. do not operate above the 100/0 mark? 

Thank you.


----------



## dadracer2

Dave01236 said:


> Hi fellow headfiers. I bought the cayin ha300 in June 2020. 7 months of fun, and it's not over yet. I tried many tubes (many of them are 6n8s melz tubes) and in the past few months that's all I've been rolling. I tried different years of manufacture (1948-1950-1952) I also have two matched pairs of melz 1578 (the real ones with 5 holes in the plates) one pair from 1963 and one from 1980 I believe. My conclusion : year 1948,1950 and 1952 are the best ones. If you can get two of the same year, even if they're not a matched pair, they will sound very similar to a matched pair from 1963, and they're 3 times cheaper. I managed to get some tubes from those years of manufacture (1948-1950-1952) for only $30 each. Nowadays you get a matched pair of 1578's for up to $150. I'm pretty confident to say that the Melz tubes, whether they're 6n8s or 1578, are in the top 3 of the best tubes you could use in the cayin ha300. Plus, they're very cheap and easy to get
> 
> Of course if you are into tube rolling, you will want to try as many 6sn7 tubes as possible. Because tubes will sound different for everyone, and especially on every amp. So far I have tried the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters, sylvania 6sn7w metal base, melz tubes, the sylvania bad boys and the stock tubes. The bad boys did glow in my cayin ha300  but gave me no sound. I tried them in my woo audio wa22 and oddly enough, I did get sound. Unfortunately the cayin is a much bigger beast so I do not use the wa22 anymore. Sadly I had to send the bad boys back to the seller. They are supposed to work in the cayin ha300 since 6sn7GT is supported by the amp. Unfortunately, it wasn't the case for me. I wonder if anyone has had issues like this one with their ha300 on any pair of tubes?
> 
> ...


Have you tried any of the PSVANE 6SN7 valves at all?


----------



## dadracer2

terirapt said:


> *How do I know if I am clipping the HA-300?*
> 
> I read that the ideal speakers for the 300b amplifiers are the high sensitivity (preferably high 90s?) and/or flat high impedance ones (I see that HA-300 manual states 4-8 ohms). However I am using a pair of Spendor Classic 3/1 (rated 88 sensitivity, 8 ohms, 25-150 watts ), and I am concerned of damaging the speakers due to underpower. I read that speakers will distort when the amp clips, but also read that tube amp may not result in audible distortion when clipping? Thus I am confused how would I know if I am clipping the HA-300? Does the VU meter help ie. do not operate above the 100/0 mark?
> 
> Thank you.


It depends also on your room size and what volume you consider normal, but I found I needed 96db sensitivity speakers in our mid sized listening room. They have a very smooth impedance curve with no big drops or peaks that is close to 8 ohm across the spectrum. These 2 issues are key so you could have a 99db speakers but it had a 4 ohm impedance and sharp drops then this would not be as ideal as say a 95db speaker with a more gentle impedance curve. Also some manufacturers overstate their sensitivity as they measure to a modified standard. So for example Klipsch seem to measure their speakers at around 3db more than reality.

If you were constantly running you amp at max into your speakers and then clipping or distortion would become a potential issue. Even though a valve amp clips more softly than SS amps they do have higher distortion levels (especially a SET amp!) but these are generally even order harmonics and so your ear does not hear that so much of a distortion as it is. Does that make sense?

So maybe you will either have play at lower levels (below 3 o'clock on the volume dial) or consider getting some new speakers if you want/need more volume.

Just my thoughts FWIW.


----------



## Level5

Andykong said:


> I know, that's why I said this is less common.
> 
> The noisy position in near the center of the amplifier?



Has there been any silent revisions?  Looking to pick one up again to cure my HD800S. Its the only amp that gave me goosebumps! Once you hear a proper 300b, its hard to be satisfied with anything else.


----------



## jambaj0e (Jan 17, 2021)

Dave01236 said:


> Hi fellow headfiers. I bought the cayin ha300 in June 2020. 7 months of fun, and it's not over yet. I tried many tubes (many of them are 6n8s melz tubes) and in the past few months that's all I've been rolling. I tried different years of manufacture (1948-1950-1952) I also have two matched pairs of melz 1578 (the real ones with 5 holes in the plates) one pair from 1963 and one from 1980 I believe. My conclusion : year 1948,1950 and 1952 are the best ones. If you can get two of the same year, even if they're not a matched pair, they will sound very similar to a matched pair from 1963, and they're 3 times cheaper. I managed to get some tubes from those years of manufacture (1948-1950-1952) for only $30 each. Nowadays you get a matched pair of 1578's for up to $150. I'm pretty confident to say that the Melz tubes, whether they're 6n8s or 1578, are in the top 3 of the best tubes you could use in the cayin ha300. Plus, they're very cheap and easy to get
> 
> Of course if you are into tube rolling, you will want to try as many 6sn7 tubes as possible. Because tubes will sound different for everyone, and especially on every amp. So far I have tried the tung sol 6f8g's with adapters, sylvania 6sn7w metal base, melz tubes, the sylvania bad boys and the stock tubes. The bad boys did glow in my cayin ha300  but gave me no sound. I tried them in my woo audio wa22 and oddly enough, I did get sound. Unfortunately the cayin is a much bigger beast so I do not use the wa22 anymore. Sadly I had to send the bad boys back to the seller. They are supposed to work in the cayin ha300 since 6sn7GT is supported by the amp. Unfortunately, it wasn't the case for me. I wonder if anyone has had issues like this one with their ha300 on any pair of tubes?
> 
> ...



I'm very surprised that the 6SN7W metal base tube didn't work out for you, but I found it to be a massive improvement over the previous Shuguang tubes, the Psvane CV-181-TII, and the 3-hole Sylvania bad boys I had. Then again, I did managed to get a NOS pair, but even the not as new pair I auditioned from my friend sounded fantastic. Coupled with the Psvane ACME 300b, I found the on my Audeze LCD-3F headphones, I had bigger soundstage, clearer air, faster/snappier more-defined texture, sweeter midrange voice, and tighter bass. I didn't have as much boy in the midbass and bass as I'd like, but the PS Audio Stellar Audio Power Plant 3 and the Sablon Audio 2020 Panatella Reserva USB cable added that while improving everything all around. Right now, I can't even listen to the Chord Hugo TT2's stock headphone amp without feeling like I'm missing a lot of special sound when I go through the HA-300 instead.


----------



## dadracer2

Level5 said:


> Has there been any silent revisions?  Looking to pick one up again to cure my HD800S. Its the only amp that gave me goosebumps! Once you hear a proper 300b, its hard to be satisfied with anything else.


Very true on the HD800S. There is some kind of magic or witchcraft with this pairing.


----------



## Dave01236

jambaj0e said:


> I'm very surprised that the 6SN7W metal base tube didn't work out for you, but I found it to be a massive improvement over the previous Shuguang tubes, the Psvane CV-181-TII, and the 3-hole Sylvania bad boys I had. Then again, I did managed to get a NOS pair, but even the not as new pair I auditioned from my friend sounded fantastic. Coupled with the Psvane ACME 300b, I found the on my Audeze LCD-3F headphones, I had bigger soundstage, clearer air, faster/snappier more-defined texture, sweeter midrange voice, and tighter bass. I didn't have as much boy in the midbass and bass as I'd like, but the PS Audio Stellar Audio Power Plant 3 and the Sablon Audio 2020 Panatella Reserva USB cable added that while improving everything all around. Right now, I can't even listen to the Chord Hugo TT2's stock headphone amp without feeling like I'm missing a lot of special sound when I go through the HA-300 instead.



Same thing goes for me. I can't listen to my wa22 anymore... ha300 is in another league of course. I was also surprised that I did not like the 6sn7w tubes, but like I said the new owner of those tubes will definitely like them. I'm not worried at all. I'm glad you managed to improve your sound. I think one of my biggest upgrades lately apart from the driver tubes (6F8G) is my new cable for my headphones that I ordered from Trevor. He works for norne audio, and quite recently they released the brand new silvergarde S4. I highly recommend this headphone cable to anyone, I immediately noticed a difference the day I received it. Much much better instrument separation, bigger soundstage.. the s4 is not a cheap cable but it's definitely worth it.

Did anyone roll 7N7's or 6J5'S in their HA300? I read that 7N7 is electrically fully identical to 6sn7 apart from the loctal base, and the pin out is different. I plan on getting adapters on ebay and roll some 7N7'S while they're still cheap. For 6j5 I need 4 of those, two for each socket. I'm still unsure if they could work in the ha300 even with adapters.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Dave01236 said:


> Same thing goes for me. I can't listen to my wa22 anymore... ha300 is in another league of course. I was also surprised that I did not like the 6sn7w tubes, but like I said the new owner of those tubes will definitely like them. I'm not worried at all. I'm glad you managed to improve your sound. I think one of my biggest upgrades lately apart from the driver tubes (6F8G) is my new cable for my headphones that I ordered from Trevor. He works for norne audio, and quite recently they released the brand new silvergarde S4. I highly recommend this headphone cable to anyone, I immediately noticed a difference the day I received it. Much much better instrument separation, bigger soundstage.. the s4 is not a cheap cable but it's definitely worth it.
> 
> Did anyone roll 7N7's or 6J5'S in their HA300? I read that 7N7 is electrically fully identical to 6sn7 apart from the loctal base, and the pin out is different. I plan on getting adapters on ebay and roll some 7N7'S while they're still cheap. For 6j5 I need 4 of those, two for each socket. I'm still unsure if they could work in the ha300 even with adapters.


I wonder if I will someday switch also to a Ha300.
Currently I don't have the space for it and I don't know if it can match the satisfaction of the Ha6a with EDM.

Maybe with some EAT 300Bs


Also +1 to Norne cables. Can't wait to receive my new load


----------



## jambaj0e

Dave01236 said:


> Same thing goes for me. I can't listen to my wa22 anymore... ha300 is in another league of course. I was also surprised that I did not like the 6sn7w tubes, but like I said the new owner of those tubes will definitely like them. I'm not worried at all. I'm glad you managed to improve your sound. I think one of my biggest upgrades lately apart from the driver tubes (6F8G) is my new cable for my headphones that I ordered from Trevor. He works for norne audio, and quite recently they released the brand new silvergarde S4. I highly recommend this headphone cable to anyone, I immediately noticed a difference the day I received it. Much much better instrument separation, bigger soundstage.. the s4 is not a cheap cable but it's definitely worth it.
> 
> Did anyone roll 7N7's or 6J5'S in their HA300? I read that 7N7 is electrically fully identical to 6sn7 apart from the loctal base, and the pin out is different. I plan on getting adapters on ebay and roll some 7N7'S while they're still cheap. For 6j5 I need 4 of those, two for each socket. I'm still unsure if they could work in the ha300 even with adapters.



Do you have a link for his cables? I'd like to get new cables for my Lcd-3 and my Aeon 2 closed


----------



## ThanatosVI

jambaj0e said:


> Do you have a link for his cables? I'd like to get new cables for my Lcd-3 and my Aeon 2 closed


Here you go
http://www.norneaudio.com/litzheim/index.php?route=common/home


----------



## Dave01236

It took him some time to update his website but he finally did it   

He's been extremely busy and it's been a few months that I've been trying to order his XLR cables. But I highly suggest patience when dealing with Trevor. His products are worth it.


----------



## Sampajanna

I just got some Psvanne CV181 and they have a static low level. Are they bad? anyone have this experience. Vendor is claiming they need warm up, but this seems no good....


----------



## Level5

Sampajanna said:


> I just got some Psvanne CV181 and they have a static low level. Are they bad? anyone have this experience. Vendor is claiming they need warm up, but this seems no good....



I'd give it a few hours warm up and if it still there, then I would demand a replacement or refund. Happened to me before and I just returned it to the ebay seller at my expense, but I did get a refund.


----------



## Level5

Was bit too excited swapping dacs and forgot to turn it off! Good thing Cayin provided 2 spares!


----------



## jambaj0e

Sampajanna said:


> I just got some Psvanne CV181 and they have a static low level. Are they bad? anyone have this experience. Vendor is claiming they need warm up, but this seems no good....



I had those before and never got the static low level. Doesn't sound like a good pair


----------



## Sampajanna

By low level I just mean it isn't super loud. Just a constant, but very audible static hiss...


----------



## jambaj0e

Sampajanna said:


> By low level I just mean it isn't super loud. Just a constant, but very audible static hiss...



Yeah, mine is dead silent. Only time I can hear anything is when I select the XLR as source and XLR out to my Audeze LCD-3 with nothing playing and the volume knob at 99 or 100%. Everything below that is dead silent.


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> Was bit too excited swapping dacs and forgot to turn it off! Good thing Cayin provided 2 spares!



I hear there are two fuses in the HA-300. How did you access them? I know there are audiophile fuses and I wonder if they'll make a difference.


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> I hear there are two fuses in the HA-300. How did you access them? I know there are audiophile fuses and I wonder if they'll make a difference.






Just the one located there.

Yeah, those "audiofool" fuses are a big waste of money and you're just paying for the snake oil look of them. I'd rather invest more on tubes!


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> Just the one located there.
> 
> Yeah, those "audiofool" fuses are a big waste of money and you're just paying for the snake oil look of them. I'd rather invest more on tubes!


I remember looking at that. How do you open it up?


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> I remember looking at that. How do you open it up?



You can use a flat head screw driver to pop it out. 

I had this (meant for phone replacement screen) laying around and it worked as well and doesn't leave any scratches or damage.


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> You can use a flat head screw driver to pop it out.
> 
> I had this (meant for phone replacement screen) laying around and it worked as well and doesn't leave any scratches or damage.


Ahh! I didn't know you just pop it open. As for the audiophile fuses, I think it's still worth testing them rather than say they don't work without any tests. I mean, it is still part of the electrical chain, and if my two power cables (Morrow Audio MAP3 to the HA-300 and Audioquest Thunder to the PS Audio Power Plant 3 power regen) made a difference to the overall sound (tighter bass and mid bass with a lot more bass extension, clearer separation, and better dynamics and speed), I wouldn't count the fuses out.


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> Ahh! I didn't know you just pop it open. As for the audiophile fuses, I think it's still worth testing them rather than say they don't work without any tests. I mean, it is still part of the electrical chain, and if my two power cables (Morrow Audio MAP3 to the HA-300 and Audioquest Thunder to the PS Audio Power Plant 3 power regen) made a difference to the overall sound (tighter bass and mid bass with a lot more bass extension, clearer separation, and better dynamics and speed), I wouldn't count the fuses out.



Be sure to do a blind test on those fancy fuses and report back! Meanwhile, I just ordered 20pcs of T3.15AL250V (100V-120V) on amazon for less than $10!


----------



## jambaj0e (Jan 24, 2021)

Level5 said:


> Be sure to do a blind test on those fancy fuses and report back! Meanwhile, I just ordered 20pcs of T3.15AL250V (100V-120V) on amazon for less than $10!



It is something I do want to do down the line, although I'm not sure I'd want to open it up to access the 2nd fuse. That being said, you should take a look at the thread on AudioScienceReview on the subject matter. I think changing it can affect the sound. The question is how much, is it audible, and is it an improvement. @Andykong  maybe you can chime in on how fuses can affect sound quality. And also, how do you replace the 2nd fuse that's inside?

*Fuses do affect sound, the question is how much*

"Fuses react to current flow and they heat up when it happens. Now, I don't think I heard the affects of this fuse whose impedance was increasing on each surge of bass current to the speaker, but it is a varying resistance and so it will also affect lower energy but higher frequency pulses going through it (that is a higher impedance (impedance resists current flow or restricts it)would therefore encounter more impedance than if the fuse impedance was not changing. What I mean is lower energy signals will be impeded more by this higher impedance state of the fuse on those bass notes that "pulsate" the fuse.

So, yes, anything in line with the signal can affect the signal or sound. This pulsation is also not linear, so that also can affect the sound.

That's pretty much a short summings up on fuses in the audio path.

I do not say that any so called audiophile fuses are any better, I will say that if the fuse is not used directly in the audio circuit path, (ie it is used in the incoming mains ac power) it is highly unlikely to have any audible improvement for even the most golden of golden ears and I would place some money on those bets any day of the week."


----------



## Level5 (Jan 24, 2021)

jambaj0e said:


> It is something I do want to do down the line, although I'm not sure I'd want to open it up to access the 2nd fuse. That being said, you should take a look at the thread on AudioScienceReview on the subject matter. I think changing it can affect the sound. The question is how much, is it audible, and is it an improvement. @Andykong  maybe you can chime in on how fuses can affect sound quality. And also, how do you replace the 2nd fuse that's inside?



I'm pretty sure any tinkering inside of the ha300 would instantly void the warranty, but most are out of warranty by now. I do want to tighten/bend the right side 300b socket in the future since the left one is more snug, but for now, I'll leave it be because its not causing any issues.







jambaj0e said:


> I do not say that any so called audiophile fuses are any better, I will say that if the fuse is not used directly in the audio circuit path, (ie it is used in the incoming mains ac power) it is highly unlikely to have any audible improvement for even the most golden of golden ears and I would place some money on those bets any day of the week."



I was only talking about the fuse on the power supply, so any modding on the circuit should have some effects for better or worse.


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> I'm pretty sure any tinkering inside of the ha300 would instantly void the warranty, but most are out of warranty by now. I do want to tighten/bend the right side 300b socket in the future since the left one is more snug, but for now, I'll leave it be because its not causing any issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh no, the fuse is part of the power line, that's what I mean. It doesn't exist outside of it, or else how would it stop a current from coming into the amp when broken? So that means it can affect sound quality.


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> Oh no, the fuse is part of the power line, that's what I mean. It doesn't exist outside of it, or else how would it stop a current from coming into the amp when broken? So that means it can affect sound quality.



Now, the big question is, will getting fancy fuses affect the sounds? In a blind test, that's pretty hard to do because you have to wait a while to get the tubes to operating temps and I'm sure you know how cold/warmed up tubes sounds. I'll just leave these fuse nervosas to somebody else! Color me unconvinced...


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> Now, the big question is, will getting fancy fuses affect the sounds? In a blind test, that's pretty hard to do because you have to wait a while to get the tubes to operating temps and I'm sure you know how cold/warmed up tubes sounds. I'll just leave these fuse nervosas to somebody else! Color me unconvinced...



I'm sure you can still do it. I also have about 10 songs that I use as references because there are parts of each song that I use to let me know what's going on with the sound.
Either way, it's still in the power line path, and different fuses have different metallurgy. It's like caps on the circuit board. Different material and oil can change things, too.

Seems that most of the threads I've read of people ACTUALLY swapping them out can hear the difference.


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> Now, the big question is, will getting fancy fuses affect the sounds? In a blind test, that's pretty hard to do because you have to wait a while to get the tubes to operating temps and I'm sure you know how cold/warmed up tubes sounds. I'll just leave these fuse nervosas to somebody else! Color me unconvinced...



Actually, Paul McGowan from PS Audio talks about his experience on when one of his distributors did a blind test on the PerfectWave DAC by swapping out the stock fuse w/ his German ceramic fuse and made a noticeable difference. Remember, Paul has decades of electrical engineering experience, and even he immediately noticed the difference. He also explains the power path that comes out of the wall all go through the fuses before it goes to the rest of the system:

PS Audio - Audiophile fuses


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> Actually, Paul McGowan from PS Audio talks about his experience on when one of his distributors did a blind test on the PerfectWave DAC by swapping out the stock fuse w/ his German ceramic fuse and made a noticeable difference. Remember, Paul has decades of electrical engineering experience, and even he immediately noticed the difference. He also explains the power path that comes out of the wall all go through the fuses before it goes to the rest of the system:
> 
> PS Audio - Audiophile fuses



No offense, but anything he promotes is automatically taken with a HUGE grain of salt. I rather listen to a complete rando than Paul for obvious reasons...


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> No offense, but anything he promotes is automatically taken with a HUGE grain of salt. I rather listen to a complete rando than Paul for obvious reasons...



In what way? He is still an electrical engineer who's been designing and building for decades, and it's not like he's selling fuses. He's just retelling the story of how one of his suppliers surprised him by changing the fuse in the DAC. So what part of his story is misleading? Is he not correct that the fuse is in the line of the electrical path?

To me, you're one of the people who likes to dismiss without actually trying things out. I didn't think USB cables would make a big difference until I participated in a blind 5-cable test, including my Sablon 2002 Panatala Reserva cable that in my system also sounds much better than the previous Kimber Cable. Also the same w/ my Audioquest Thunder Cable + PS Audio Stellar Power Plant 3 and Morrow Audio MA6 XLR cable with flagship Furutech XLR ends. All of those things, I can hear the difference.

So basically, until I can test audiophile fuses or be in a room where someone's doing the fuse changing, I'm not going to automatically dismiss it. That's just lazy.


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> In what way? He is still an electrical engineer who's been designing and building for decades, and it's not like he's selling fuses. He's just retelling the story of how one of his suppliers surprised him by changing the fuse in the DAC. So what part of his story is misleading? Is he not correct that the fuse is in the line of the electrical path?
> 
> To me, you're one of the people who likes to dismiss without actually trying things out. I didn't think USB cables would make a big difference until I participated in a blind 5-cable test, including my Sablon 2002 Panatala Reserva cable that in my system also sounds much better than the previous Kimber Cable. Also the same w/ my Audioquest Thunder Cable + PS Audio Stellar Power Plant 3 and Morrow Audio MA6 XLR cable with flagship Furutech XLR ends. All of those things, I can hear the difference.
> 
> So basically, until I can test audiophile fuses or be in a room where someone's doing the fuse changing, I'm not going to automatically dismiss it. That's just lazy.



I don't really want to derail this thread on these fuse mythology any longer.  If it makes you happy and you think it makes a difference, then good for you! Fuse away!

BTW, I do buy fancy cable! I've replaced tons of stock hp cables, but mostly DIY though.


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> I don't really want to derail this thread on these fuse mythology any longer.  If it makes you happy and you think it makes a difference, then good for you! Fuse away!
> 
> BTW, I do buy fancy cable! I've replaced tons of stock hp cables, but mostly DIY though.



Sure that's fine, but for me, I just can't take your argument seriously when you don't provide any proof or backing that says otherwise. I've provided my argument to be open minded and not dismiss things offhand.


----------



## Level5

Pro tip: For anybody that uses hard to drive planars, use your damn speaker taps! You're welcome! 
I was never satisfied with how it drove my Verum 1, it just sounded like its struggling and anemic via HP out. Made me love this amp even more!


----------



## jambaj0e (Jan 25, 2021)

Level5 said:


> Pro tip: For anybody that uses hard to drive planars, use your damn speaker taps! You're welcome!
> I was never satisfied with how it drove my Verum 1, it just sounded like its struggling and anemic via HP out. Made me love this amp even more!



Wait, this Verum 1 headphones is hard to drive? I checked that it's only rated at 10Ω and 96dB. I have the LCD-3 and it has 110 Ohms and 102dB and I tend to keep it around 20-40% volume (around 9-11 o'clock on the dial) depending on the musical genre and recording. My LCD-3 definitely does NOT sound anemic at all.

With the LCD-4 with 200 Ohms and 97dB that my friend would bring, I keep it 50-70% volume (around 12-2:30 o'clock on the dial).

What's your source and its power output? I have a Hugo TT2 pushing through the XLR cables rated at 2.5V RMS via DAC mode.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Level5 said:


> Pro tip: For anybody that uses hard to drive planars, use your damn speaker taps! You're welcome!
> I was never satisfied with how it drove my Verum 1, it just sounded like its struggling and anemic via HP out. Made me love this amp even more!


Interesting, and that even though it has only 8w output (presumably in 8 ohm)


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> Wait, this Verum 1 headphones is hard to drive? I checked that it's only rated at 10Ω and 96dB. I have the LCD-3 and it has 110 Ohms and 102dB and I tend to keep it around 20-40% volume (around 9-11 o'clock on the dial) depending on the musical genre and recording. My LCD-3 definitely does NOT sound anemic at all.
> 
> With the LCD-4 with 200 Ohms and 97dB that my friend would bring, I keep it 50-70% volume (around 12-2:30 o'clock on the dial).
> 
> What's your source and its power output? I have a Hugo TT2 pushing through the XLR cables rated at 2.5V RMS via DAC mode.



Its not really hard to drive, even my phone could drive it, but on the ha300 in particular, it just sounded like ass and I had to be around 3-4'oclock on the knob via hp out to be loud enough. Also, I'm a big proponent of using speakers amps/taps on planars. They do love more current after all.


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> Wait, this Verum 1 headphones is hard to drive? I checked that it's only rated at 10Ω and 96dB.



It's actually 8 ohms! Perfectly fine on speaker taps and its sounds like nite/day compared to hp out.


----------



## Level5 (Jan 25, 2021)

The ability to switch from my HD800 to Verum 1 with a flick of a switch is awesome! Can't believe I didn't do this sooner!


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> It's actually 8 ohms! Perfectly fine on speaker taps and its sounds like nite/day compared to hp out.



Headphone Ohms vs Speaker Ohms are two different things, actually. I can't remember whose podcast I listened to that explains it, but they aren't apples to apples.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Level5 said:


> It's actually 8 ohms! Perfectly fine on speaker taps and its sounds like nite/day compared to hp out.


That's an very interesting finding, Since it isn't a particularly powerful speaker out, I'd have guessed that the difference isn't all that big.

My new amp will be similar, also with 8w into 8ohm,speaker out on top of the headphone out.
Curious if it will be the same story there


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> Headphone Ohms vs Speaker Ohms are two different things, actually. I can't remember whose podcast I listened to that explains it, but they aren't apples to apples.



I simply just said that the ohms match.... Of course, its not apples to apples. I'm sure you've heard of planar users (he6, abyss, etc) preferring speaker taps.


----------



## Level5

ThanatosVI said:


> That's an very interesting finding, Since it isn't a particularly powerful speaker out, I'd have guessed that the difference isn't all that big.
> 
> My new amp will be similar, also with 8w into 8ohm,speaker out on top of the headphone out.
> Curious if it will be the same story there



8wpc is nothing haha. I've used much more powerful amps on my verum and hifiman. Try it and report back!


----------



## ThanatosVI

Level5 said:


> 8wpc is nothing haha. I've used much more powerful amps on my verum and hifiman. Try it and report back!


That's what I meant, even though it's nothing you reported a significant difference compared to the headphone out.

With a powerful speakeramp that is excpected, with the Cayin Ha-300 it is a little surprising. I would have expected very small differences only.


----------



## jambaj0e

Level5 said:


> I simply just said that the ohms match.... Of course, its not apples to apples. I'm sure you've heard of planar users (he6, abyss, etc) preferring speaker taps.



of course I do, but those headphones (HE6, Abyss, Susvara) are highly inefficient. You can see it not only w/ the impedance, but particularly the sensitivity. Yours is not really insensitive:

*HEADPHONE: IMPEDANCE / SENSITIVITY*
Verum 1: 10 Ohms / 96dB
HE6: 50 Ohms / 83.5dB
Susvara: 60 Ohms / 83dB
Abyss AB-1266: 47 Ohms / 88dB
Abyss Diana Phi: 32 Ohms / 91dB


----------



## Level5

ThanatosVI said:


> That's what I meant, even though it's nothing you reported a significant difference compared to the headphone out.
> 
> With a powerful speakeramp that is excpected, with the Cayin Ha-300 it is a little surprising. I would have expected very small differences only.



Yes, I was bit surprised too. I just wanted to try it out for the hell of it, but damn, it actually made a HUGE difference and sounds just as good as the higher wattage amps.


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> of course I do, but those headphones (HE6, Abyss, Susvara) are highly inefficient. You can see it not only w/ the impedance, but particularly the sensitivity. Yours is not really insensitive:
> 
> *HEADPHONE: IMPEDANCE / SENSITIVITY*
> Verum 1: 10 Ohms / 96dB
> ...



Cool specs bro! Yes, your right about the sensitivity, but I still prefer via speaker taps.

BTW, your passive aggressiveness is cute!


----------



## jambaj0e (Jan 25, 2021)

Level5 said:


> Cool specs bro! Yes, your right about the sensitivity, but I still prefer via speaker taps.
> 
> BTW, your passive aggressiveness is cute!



Lol, oh dude. Not being passive aggressive at all, just clarifying what you were saying that the Verum 1 is an inefficient headphones like those other Hifiman and Abyss. I'll agree with you that planars will probably sound more dynamic via speaker taps, though. I have a friend who does that for his Susvaras, too.

Good thing about the HA-300 is that it scales up very nicely with higher levels of headphones, just wait until you try them, you'll be even more amazed. Love my LCD-3 and my friend's LCD-4 on it, and that same friend who has the Susvara says the ZMF Auteurs sound fantastic on it, too.


----------



## Level5 (Jan 25, 2021)

jambaj0e said:


> Lol, oh dude. Not being passive aggressive at all, just clarifying what you were saying that the Verum 1 is an inefficient headphones like those other Hifiman and Abyss. I'll agree with you that planars will probably sound more dynamic via speaker taps, though. I have a friend who does that for his Susvaras, too.
> 
> Good thing about the HA-300 is that it scales up very nicely with higher levels of headphones, just wait until you try them, you'll be even more amazed. Love my LCD-3 and my friend's LCD-4 on it, and that same friend who has the Susvara says the ZMF Auteurs sound fantastic on it, too.



Oh, I have actually. This was my first ha-300 chain with a decent "high level" hp.  

I'm mostly into 2ch nowadays...


----------



## jambaj0e (Jan 25, 2021)

Level5 said:


> Cool specs bro! Yes, your right about the sensitivity, but I still prefer via speaker taps.
> 
> BTW, your passive aggressiveness is cute!



Also, my questions started from when you said the Verum 1 sounded anemic from the headphone jack and that you have to crank it up to 3 or 4 o' clock or 75-80% volume. That's what surprising for me, because even on harder to drive headphones, I haven't had that problem, so I'm trying to see why yours would sound like that considering the Verum 1 is not that hard to drive.


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> Also, my questions started from when you said the Verum 1 sounded anemic from the headphone jack and that you have to crank it up to 3 or 4 o' clock or 75% volume. That's what surprising for me, because even on harder to drive headphones, I haven't had that problem, so I'm trying to see why yours would sound like that considering the Verum 1 is not that hard to drive.



Can't explain it, lets just say its one of Verum's quirks on this tube amp. It boggles the mind sometimes, you know? How about you order one and find out, but you'll have to wait quite awhile.


----------



## Level5

It would be great if any ha300 users try their planars via speaker taps... I'm sure some of you are not perfectly satisfied with how its sounds via hp out.


----------



## Benny-x

Level5 said:


> It would be great if any ha300 users try their planars via speaker taps... I'm sure some of you are not perfectly satisfied with how its sounds via hp out.


I applaud your fortitude in making it through the past 2-3 pages. 

What other headphones have you been able to try the HA-300 taps with? I see you've got the pigtail, so I wondered if you had other compatible cables and gave it a shot? 

My HA-300 is packed up right now, but I have wondered about doing this for a while. The output power doesn't seem high, but it seems like an interesting thing to try out. I think you're the fi at person I've seen actually do it.


----------



## Level5 (Jan 25, 2021)

Benny-x said:


> I applaud your fortitude in making it through the past 2-3 pages.
> 
> What other headphones have you been able to try the HA-300 taps with? I see you've got the pigtail, so I wondered if you had other compatible cables and gave it a shot?
> 
> My HA-300 is packed up right now, but I have wondered about doing this for a while. The output power doesn't seem high, but it seems like an interesting thing to try out. I think you're the fi at person I've seen actually do it.



Thanks, I appreciate it! I hope you found it amusing at least.

This is kind of embarrassing, but this is my third HA-300 (long story, don't ask)....  I experimented with this Verum 1 (very cursed hp and a good lab rat for testing) with several solid state (class d, ab) high watts amps because I always found it subpar (like most planars) on most headphone amps that I've tried (even worse on ha-300).

Sadly, this is the only time I got to play with the taps. I didn't bother with my other hps (Utopia/HD800) at the time, and there really wouldn't be any point with those dynamic drivers anyways. I wasn't into planars that much back then, and even now.

Regarding the pigtail, I got it done from a DIY'er. I know the gauge of the wire is not ideal, but it works! I'll most likely get an upgraded one with better/thicker wires and fancy braiding in the future, or just do it myself if I get bored enough.

I'm actually quite shock that I'm the first person to ever try and publish this bonus feature! Again, you guys have fun with it!


----------



## donato (Jan 25, 2021)

Level5 said:


> Thanks, I appreciate it! I hope you found it amusing at least.
> 
> This is kind of embarrassing, but this is my third HA-300 (long story, don't ask)....  I experimented with this Verum 1 (very cursed hp and a good lab rat for testing) with several solid state (class d, ab) high watts amps because I always found it subpar (like most planars) on most headphone amps that I've tried (even worse on ha-300).
> 
> ...



There are very extensive discussion about driving headphones off of speaker amps here on headfi.  This is a dedicated thread on the subject
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/speaker-amps-for-headphones.649107/

There are similar discussions in Susvara and HE6 threads for the same reason.

The Verum might be uniquely suited to work well with the outputs on the HA300 because the Verum's impedance is what the HA300 expects to see (8 ohm).  I would caution the use of doing this with other higher impedance headphones since my understanding is that tube amps with output transformers don't like to see high impedances since it effectively looks like an open circuit (somebody can jump in to explain the specific tube amp electronics issues).  When I've used my Primaluna tube amp to drive my HPs, I've put a resistor in parallel on the binding posts to bring the parallel resistance in line with the load that the amp expects to see (i.e. 8 ohms).

I can agree thought that there can be benefits to driving off of speaker amps (I use a Pass XA25 myself), esp. when driving difficult to drive HPs.


----------



## Level5 (Jan 25, 2021)

donato said:


> There are very extensive discussion about driving headphones off of speaker amps here on headfi.  This is a dedicated thread on the subject
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/speaker-amps-for-headphones.649107/
> 
> There are similar discussions in Susvara and HE6 threads for the same reason.
> ...



Good point! I forgot to add a disclaimer that *there's always a potential risk connecting hps via speaker taps*.


----------



## Benny-x

As donato said, there's actually a long running scene about doing that and I have been in on it for ~5 years. The main 'phones I was doing it with were my HE-6 and now sold HE-1000 v1, and both planars as you said. 

But~ there's another guy on here with my Pioneer SE-Master1 that exclusively runs them off the taps of a 250W vintage integrated. He also runs his HE-6, Denon D7000, HD800, and TH-900 off that big watt amp too. 

Based on my impressions with my other headphones, I'm willing to believe that dynamic driver 'phones can sound great of those speaker amps too. I will hopefully get my ass back to that some time in 2021 when I get both my headphones back and system back up... Cross all my fingers...

And unfortunately in line with what donato also said, I/we do have to be careful with a tube amp and higher impendence headphones. The parallel resistor part is important and I think you did luck out with those Verums. Haha.


----------



## Level5

Benny-x said:


> And unfortunately in line with what donato also said, I/we do have to be careful with a tube amp and higher impendence headphones. The parallel resistor part is important and I think you did luck out with those Verums. Haha.



Hmmm, maybe that's why I haven't heard that much talk about using hps via speaker taps w/ tube amps... This cursed Verum might just be one of a kind!  

Disclaimer: I don't recommend buying this verum hp because that guy is racist!


----------



## wazzupi

I just ordered the GL2000s and HE6SE which from my understanding comes with an adapter for speaker taps, so I might just try it out.


----------



## wazzupi

hmm so I shouldn't try the HE6SE on the HA-300 can someone chime in on this please ?


----------



## jambaj0e (Jan 25, 2021)

Level5 said:


> Can't explain it, lets just say its one of Verum's quirks on this tube amp. It boggles the mind sometimes, you know? How about you order one and find out, but you'll have to wait quite awhile.




Well, I don't see a reason for me to though. I already own the Audeze LCD-3 and the Dan Clark Audio Aeon2 Closed (which I do crank up 55% since its less sensitive than the Audezes), so the Verum would be a downgrade for me.

Out of curiosity, what's the rest of your system? What DAC + cables + source + etc are you using?


----------



## Level5 (Jan 25, 2021)

wazzupi said:


> hmm so I shouldn't try the HE6SE on the HA-300 can someone chime in on this please ?



Might want to shoot an email to Hifiman just in case! They should be more knowledgeable about it since they obviously want users to try speaker amps w/ their hps.


----------



## Level5

jambaj0e said:


> Well, I don't see a reason for me to though. I already own the Audeze LCD-3 and the Dan Clark Audio Aeon2 Closed (which I do crank up 55% since its less sensitive than the Audezes), so the Verum would be a downgrade for me.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what's the rest of your system? What DAC + cables + source + etc are you using?



Current chain: Prism Callia > BHA1/Jot2/HA-300
I tend to change my dac a lot, but this IMO, is the best synergy for me. Will probably sell the Jot 2 though...

Cables: Mostly DIY, and XLR cables are made with Star quad/Mogami and I tend to avoid most "audiophile" brands like a plague!
Tweaks: Hi Res stickers! 

I just put an order for Omega CAM to try out w/ HA-300. More headphones? NOPE, I'm satisfied with my HD800S & Cursed Verum 1.

Again, I'm pretty much 2ch guy now. I only just got back into it due to this pandemic! Lots of time at home these past months....


----------



## llamaluv

Interesting to hear about your speaker tap experience with those low-impedance planars.

By the way, Andy posted this reply to a question I asked about using speaker taps for headphones back in the summer:



Andykong said:


> Quick answer, better connect your headphone to the headphone output. The speaker output of HA-300 will drive your headphone, it won't blow up, but you'll bypass the impedance matched output of the HA-300 (i.e., the H/M/L impedance switch).
> 
> If you are using an amplifier that was designed primarily as integrated amplifier for speakers but with a headphone output bundled, then it is worth to give it a try, its likely that the speaker output and the headphone output are not coming from the same amplification circuit. HA-300, on the other hand, were designed primarily as headphone amp and we have provide an extra set of output for the speaker application. So they are the same set of output with different impedance loading in mind, the headphone output has provide full power from the amplification circuit already, you won't get any benefit by using the speaker output.


----------



## Level5 (Jan 25, 2021)

llamaluv said:


> Interesting to hear about your speaker tap experience with those low-impedance planars.
> 
> By the way, Andy posted this reply to a question I asked about using speaker taps for headphones back in the summer:



Thanks for finding this!

Well, it looks like its safe to use after all and wont blow up your hps! The impedance matching being bypass via speaker taps is probably one of the reasons (besides the raw 8wpc) why my planar sounds better. YMMV


----------



## Level5 (Jan 25, 2021)

jambaj0e said:


> Out of curiosity, what's the rest of your system? What DAC + cables + source + etc are you using?



I forgot to add my current toobs!

300B: Shuguang BT 50yrs 300B-Z Premium grade
I want to try Acme, Elrog and Takatsuki soon!

Psvane CV181-T MKII Premium grade
Shuguang 50yrs CV181-Z Premium grade
I avoid NOS tubes because I've had nothing but issues with them!


----------



## donato

wazzupi said:


> hmm so I shouldn't try the HE6SE on the HA-300 can someone chime in on this please ?



If you're talking about the Hifiman HE Adapter, it was designed to allow you to use it with speaker amps.  But based on the design of the HA-300 speaker outputs described in @llamaluv 's post that it probably won't sound any better.


----------



## Level5

donato said:


> If you're talking about the Hifiman HE Adapter, it was designed to allow you to use it with speaker amps.  But based on the design of the HA-300 speaker outputs described in @llamaluv 's post that it probably won't sound any better.



I'd avoid using that HE adapter and get a 4-pin XLR to speaker taps instead. Something about the resistor inside it will bottleneck the signal.


----------



## donato

Level5 said:


> I'd avoid using that HE adapter and get a 4-pin XLR to speaker taps instead. Something about the resistor inside it will bottleneck the signal.



I'd refer people to the speaker tap thread which goes into detail on the HE adapter, although you may have to dig for the info.  The HE adapter is a voltage divider with a series and a parallel resistor.  the parallel resistor is to adjust the impedance that the amp sees which again is typically important with transformer output tube amps and higher impedance headphones.  The series resistor is in the signal path and is primarily there to help manage gain.  Some say the resistors used in the HE adapter are not of particularly good quality and may introduce a veil to the sound.  I'd say think of the HE adapter as tool to provide greater compatibility, but not necessarily the best sound quality.


----------



## Andykong (Feb 1, 2021)

donato said:


> There are very extensive discussion about driving headphones off of speaker amps here on headfi.  This is a dedicated thread on the subject
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/speaker-amps-for-headphones.649107/
> 
> There are similar discussions in Susvara and HE6 threads for the same reason.
> ...





llamaluv said:


> Interesting to hear about your speaker tap experience with those low-impedance planars.
> 
> By the way, Andy posted this reply to a question I asked about using speaker taps for headphones back in the summer:



Thank you @donato for point this out and @llamaluv for recovering my previous suggestion. I didn't aware of the discussion about speaker tab connection until today.

I must remind everyone that HA-300 is an amplifier purposively designed for headphone application, with speaker output as value-added feature.  This is very different from generic integrated amplifier with speaker as primarily output and headphone as value-added feature.  For example, with Cayin tube integrated amplifier such as CS-55A or MT-35 MK2, the headphone output is an amplification that is independent and much lesser output from the speaker output.  If you compare the different output value of HA-300, you should notice that the speaker output is actually a lesser output, especially when you use a higher impedance setting.  To illustrate my point, I have provided a table with to compare the  output at VRMS, with the R value as an arbitrary impedance loading that is close to the mid value of the Low, Mid and High impedance setting respectively.  For the record, the Mid impedance Balanced output of HA-300 is more than doubled the speaker output already, so if you want more power, stick with the balanced phone output.




As others has pointed out, Verum is not a very difficult load according to its specification.  Verum is very different from other planar headphone because of its extremely low impedance rating, at 10 ohm.   It is very close to the 8 ohm fixed impedance loading of speaker output.  With planar headphone, the impedance will affect the sound signature significantly, and that's why Cayin developed impedance matched output features in our tube headphone amplifier.  In the case of Verum, the impedance is very clos to the speaker output, that's why it sound "better" with speaker output. If you have a low sensitivity planar at 24ohm or above, Cayin do not recommend using the speaker output.  You can explore with caution, but we don't recommend this officially.


----------



## Level5

Andykong said:


> As others has pointed out, Verum is not a very difficult load according to its specification.  Verum is very different from other planar headphone because of its extremely low impedance rating, at 10 ohm.   It is very close to the 8 ohm fixed impedance loading of speaker output.  With planar headphone, the impedance will affect the sound signature significantly, and that's why Cayin developed impedance matched output features in our tube headphone amplifier.  In the case of Verum, the impedance is very clos to the speaker output, that's why it sound "better" with speaker output. If you have a low sensitivity planar at 24ohm or above, Cayin do not recommend using the speaker output.  You can explore with caution, but we don't recommend this officially.



So I guess Verum is a rare case... Also, on Verum's site, its specifically says its 8ohms! Not sure where people are getting this 10ohm from.

https://www.verum-audio.com/products


----------



## wazzupi

Andykong said:


> Thank you @donato for point this out and @llamaluv for recovering my previous suggestion. I didn't aware of the discussion about speaker tab connection until today.
> 
> I must remind everyone that HA-300 is an amplifier purposively designed for headphone application, with speaker output as value-added feature.  This is very different from generic integrated amplifier with speaker as primarily output and headphone as value-added feature.  For example, with Cayin tube integrated amplifier such as CS-55A or MT-35 MK2, the headphone output is an amplification that is independent and much lesser output from the speaker output.  If you compare the different output value of HA-300, you should notice that the speaker output is actually a lesser output, especially when you use a higher impedance setting.  To illustrate my point, I have provided a table with to compare the  output at VRMS, with the R value as an arbitrary impedance loading that is close to the mid value of the Low, Mid and High impedance setting respectively.  For the record, the Mid impedance Balanced output of HA-300 is more than doubled the speaker output already, so if you want more power, stick with the balanced phone output.
> 
> ...



I thought the single ended output was the highest power output ?


----------



## jambaj0e

wazzupi said:


> I thought the single ended output was the highest power output ?



I can definitely day that the balanced XLR output is louder than the single-ended. I own cables for both and I don't need to have the volume dial as high with the XLR. This is regardless of whether I use single or balanced inputs, the XLR output is always louder. 

 Now between the XLR input VS single-ended, the XLR input is louder but that may also be because my Hugo TT2 does push higher wattage via its XLRs.


----------



## Andykong

wazzupi said:


> I thought the single ended output was the highest power output ?



Yes and no, it depends on the impedance setting, since we are discussing the different between speaker output at 8 ohm and low impedance setting (64ohm and below), the balanced output deliver more power then the single-ended output.  I have provided the rest of the table for your reference.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Yes and no, it depends on the impedance setting, since we are discussing the different between speaker output at 8 ohm and low impedance setting (64ohm and below), the balanced output deliver more power then the single-ended output.  I have provided the rest of the table for your reference.



How does using RCA vs XLR inputs from the DAC change the power you're getting? Is there a limit of what voltage can go into the HA-300 before distortion creeps in? For the Chord HUGO TT2, what's safe and useable based on their chart here?


----------



## rulerofrecords

Question to the owners, dealers, sponsors - are the HA-300 and the HA-6a multi-voltage = 110 -230V???  Because there is one thing I know - I'm not paying 2000 Euros more than Asia or US-Customers ... 
cheers guys


----------



## ThanatosVI

rulerofrecords said:


> Question to the owners, dealers, sponsors - are the HA-300 and the HA-6a multi-voltage = 110 -230V???  Because there is one thing I know - I'm not paying 2000 Euros more than Asia or US-Customers ...
> cheers guys


No they are not.
If you're looking for a Ha-6a 230V Version try france.

Keep in mind that Cayins warranty restrictions suck


----------



## rulerofrecords

ThanatosVI said:


> No they are not.
> If you're looking for a Ha-6a 230V Version try france.
> 
> Keep in mind that Cayins warranty restrictions suck


not good - but thanx for clarifying. Any particular dealer in mind in France?


----------



## ThanatosVI

rulerofrecords said:


> not good - but thanx for clarifying. Any particular dealer in mind in France?


I bought mine @son-video but the only reason Was the price. Any french dealer is probably fine since the official price for the Ha-6a is 2500€ over there. 

The Cayin Ha-300 is unfortunately just as expensive as in most other european countries.


----------



## rulerofrecords

ThanatosVI said:


> I bought mine @son-video but the only reason Was the price. Any french dealer is probably fine since the official price for the Ha-6a is 2500€ over there.
> 
> The Cayin Ha-300 is unfortunately just as expensive as in most other european countries.


Wow - I just checked with two dealers and it is exactly as you say. Remarkable, that makes the HA-6a quite attractive. If that for me can overcome the myth that is the 300b remains to be seen. Have you heard both before buying ThanatosVI?


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> How does using RCA vs XLR inputs from the DAC change the power you're getting? Is there a limit of what voltage can go into the HA-300 before distortion creeps in? For the Chord HUGO TT2, what's safe and useable based on their chart here?



So the maximum output of Hugo TT2 is 3V single-ended and 5V balanced in regardless of Amp mode or DAC mode, in this case, they are all safe and useable with HA-6A or HA-300.


----------



## ThanatosVI

rulerofrecords said:


> Wow - I just checked with two dealers and it is exactly as you say. Remarkable, that makes the HA-6a quite attractive. If that for me can overcome the myth that is the 300b remains to be seen. Have you heard both before buying ThanatosVI?


No I did not, the fact that the Ha-300 costs twice as much made the decision easy at that time


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> So the maximum output of Hugo TT2 is 3V single-ended and 5V balanced in regardless of Amp mode or DAC mode, in this case, they are all safe and useable with HA-6A or HA-300.



Actually, I'm not sure if this only pertains to when driving speakers, vs when you're Amp mode going to another Amp. What do you think @Andykong ?


----------



## Andykong

According to Chord's description, Amp mode is equivalent to variable output of Pre-amp from traditional HiFi music system. I can only tell from specification that 3V Single-ended and 5V Balanced are safe for HA-300 or HA-6A, I can't tell whether it'll sound better then DAC mode, you have to try it out yourselves.

The problem is double amping  and double volume control when connecting HA-300 in Amp mode, and that will introduce endless combination when you explore them as a system.  For instance, you can fix the HA-300 volume knob at 12, 1, 2, 3 o'clock position, and then turn up the volume of TT2 from 0 gradually, and then fixed the volume output of TT2 to -20 or -10, and turn up the volume of HA-300 gradually.


----------



## rulerofrecords

ThanatosVI said:


> No I did not, the fact that the Ha-300 costs twice as much made the decision easy at that time


hard to argue with that


----------



## Sampajanna

I have mscaler/TT2. I have found for most headphones, preamp volume on TT2 and HA300 at 12oclock is best IMO


----------



## Sampajanna

Also, just got those Tung Sol 6F8G. So far loving it. it is tight. Soundstage seems reduced. But everything is clean. Letting them warm up and get some run in.... As of now, they are the best drivers I have had in the amp thus far. Thanks so much for the recommendation!


----------



## Sampajanna

With my Utopia, the Dac mode on the TT2 is already very loud at the lowest step on the HA-300 even set to low impedence "L," so with these headphones at least, using the preamp mode on the TT2 is necessary--no choice.


----------



## Andykong

Sampajanna said:


> With my Utopia, the Dac mode on the TT2 is already very loud at the lowest step on the HA-300 even set to low impedence "L," so with these headphones at least, using the preamp mode on the TT2 is necessary--no choice.



I am also a bit peculiar with the output level of TT2 at DAC mode.  I believe 2V single-ended and 4V Balance is the de facto level among recording and home audio equipments, but Chord decided to raise the bar to 2.5V and 5V.


----------



## Sampajanna

I rolled some EML 300b tubes and no sound came out and now when I went back to stock also no sound....  Any ideas? tubes all light up but no sound


----------



## Sampajanna (Feb 5, 2021)

It is also making a different sound when it shuts off (clicking)... Did these tubes break my amp? The friend that loaned them to me said they were suitable.... They say "300B" on them as well.


----------



## Sampajanna

Was just a fuse.... phew.... Maybe these EML are defective


----------



## Level5

Sampajanna said:


> Was just a fuse.... phew.... Maybe these EML are defective



Was this the Mesh? Not sure what specs the HA300 runs on... 

Per EML recommendation:
http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML300B-mesh.html

To replace a 300B by the EML 300B-Mesh, be sure the wire mesh tube is run at following conditions:

*Recommended:* 22Wat Anode dissipation.
*Absolute maximum*: 28 Watt Anode dissipation. Please note, this is a lot less than with standard 300B, which has 40 Watt absolute maximum.

A normal 300B amplifier runs normally at 26....36 Watt plate dissipation. And some abnormal products run it above 36 Watt. Without measurement, you can not know where you are on this scale from 26...36. So suppose it was 26Watt or even less, you could plug&play the EML 300B-Mesh. On the other hand, at 36Watt, this would damage the EML 300B-Mesh by just plugging it in. So this is needing very good attention.


----------



## wazzupi

Andykong said:


> Yes and no, it depends on the impedance setting, since we are discussing the different between speaker output at 8 ohm and low impedance setting (64ohm and below), the balanced output deliver more power then the single-ended output.  I have provided the rest of the table for your reference.


so using mid or high on xlr or SE for lets say a h6se or D8000pro isn't ideal ? even though it seems to provide more power ?!?


----------



## wazzupi

so I have a blur b2 bomber Dac which has output level selector and it actually increases/decreases volume (it sounds like adding/subtracting Gain) I find this a little odd that a Dac can provide loudness to the sound ? It would be interesting to know how that works in more detail.


----------



## Andykong

wazzupi said:


> so using mid or high on xlr or SE for lets say a h6se or D8000pro isn't ideal ? even though it seems to provide more power ?!?



Yes, in our opinion.  Matched output will deliver better sonic performance for planar headphones,  The more obvious different is the linearity and definition in the bass frequency range.


----------



## Andykong

wazzupi said:


> so I have a blur b2 bomber Dac which has output level selector and it actually increases/decreases volume (it sounds like adding/subtracting Gain) I find this a little odd that a Dac can provide loudness to the sound ? It would be interesting to know how that works in more detail.


Probably the digital volume in the DAC chipset.  Line out was meant to be fixed value output, but some manufacturer has revised their design to "variable line out" by keeping the digital volume control in DAC chipset.  Theoretically that is an attenuator that lower the output of your line out so you should set it to a relatively higher level or maximum in order to deliver the standard 2V SE or 4V BAL rated output level for line out.


----------



## wazzupi

Andykong said:


> Probably the digital volume in the DAC chipset.  Line out was meant to be fixed value output, but some manufacturer has revised their design to "variable line out" by keeping the digital volume control in DAC chipset.  Theoretically that is an attenuator that lower the output of your line out so you should set it to a relatively higher level or maximum in order to deliver the standard 2V SE or 4V BAL rated output level for line out.


thank you for the explanation I appreciate it.


----------



## musicman59

About the digital volume control, doing it in the digital domain the disadvantage is if you go lower than about -16db you start affecting the resolution of the DAC because it start eliminating significant bits with information.


----------



## Andykong

musicman59 said:


> About the digital volume control, doing it in the digital domain the disadvantage is if you go lower than about -16db you start affecting the resolution of the DAC because it start eliminating significant bits with information.



Modern DAC chipset are operated in 32bit.  if we playback 24Bits music files on a 32 bit DAC and lower the volume by 48dB (8bits), we still have 24 bits "untouched" in the DAC chipset, so 16 bits is definitely not a problem.  Some DAC even compute the signal at 64bit internally because and that will safeguard a 32 bit data path without truncation.


----------



## xand

Looking forward to the update with the 4.4mm port and 130 step volume control...


----------



## wazzupi

xand said:


> Looking forward to the update with the 4.4mm port and 130 step volume control...


doesn't need a 4.4mm port..


----------



## xand

Sure.. To be clear of the source  - 4.4mm given the 6A has it (doesn't need it either) and 130 steps given the C9s volume control (although I have no clue if a similar scheme would work for a DHT amp).

Oh and I have a 4.4mm cable already... As I'm sure others have or will more often have from now on...


----------



## Level5

Anyone else notice that certain 6SN7 tubes are more microphonic (hiss) when plugged via balanced out, but no hiss with SE out. This is with HD800S on Hi impedance btw.


----------



## donato

Just joined the club (bought from @Level5 )!  A bit too soon give impressions since I just unboxed and set it up a couple hours ago, but more to come.


----------



## rulerofrecords

I gave this some hard thinking - but I have not seen a more impressive desktop-setup anywhere yet. Congratulations! However - A tube-amp to go with the Pass SS = sure. But - what is that truly impressive 845 Viva amp missing that got you to go for the 300b Cayin?


----------



## donato

rulerofrecords said:


> I gave this some hard thinking - but I have not seen a more impressive desktop-setup anywhere yet. Congratulations! However - A tube-amp to go with the Pass SS = sure. But - what is that truly impressive 845 Viva amp missing that got you to go for the 300b Cayin?



Not anything "missing" per se with the 845.  It is an impressive headphone amp to be sure, but a bit overpowered for sensitive headphones and there is a little bit of buzz when using those.  I bought the 845 to use with my Susvara, LCD-4, and soon Abyss Phi TC.  But I was also interested in what a 300b-based tube amp sounded like, hence the HA-300.  Plus, the 845 does draw a lot of power, 300W+, and of course generates a commensurate amount of heat (fortunately, the weather is very moderate almost all year here).


----------



## llamaluv

I've been pretty enamored with the Egoista since giving it a serious listen a few years ago. Will be very interested to hear any comparisons to the HA-300 that you'll share!


----------



## rulerofrecords

rulerofrecords said:


> I gave this some hard thinking - but I have not seen a more impressive desktop-setup anywhere yet. Congratulations! However - A tube-amp to go with the Pass SS = sure. But - what is that truly impressive 845 Viva amp missing that got you to go for the 300b Cayin?


yeah, I'll sure would like to change that shitshow called "Spring in Germany" for that "moderate" weather you guys are dealing with  Anyhow I've heard people saying they have similar issues with headroom on their sensitive cans on the 300b, too. So I'm very interested as well in hearing your thoughts on the two amps ...


----------



## jambaj0e

donato said:


> Just joined the club (bought from @Level5 )!  A bit too soon give impressions since I just unboxed and set it up a couple hours ago, but more to come.



Congratulations and welcome to the family!


----------



## jambaj0e

donato said:


> Not anything "missing" per se with the 845.  It is an impressive headphone amp to be sure, but a bit overpowered for sensitive headphones and there is a little bit of buzz when using those.  I bought the 845 to use with my Susvara, LCD-4, and soon Abyss Phi TC.  But I was also interested in what a 300b-based tube amp sounded like, hence the HA-300.  Plus, the 845 does draw a lot of power, 300W+, and of course generates a commensurate amount of heat (fortunately, the weather is very moderate almost all year here).



How does the Susvara sound on the HA-300? I've heard the LCD-4 on mine, and while I love it, the soundstage especially the vocal is just a bit more intimate and closed in vs my LCD-3. So even though I may lose a bit more purity and transient speed, tonality and soundstage wise I prefer my LCD-3 over the LCD-4.


----------



## Benny-x

rulerofrecords said:


> I gave this some hard thinking - but I have not seen a more impressive desktop-setup anywhere yet. Congratulations! However - A tube-amp to go with the Pass SS = sure. But - what is that truly impressive 845 Viva amp missing that got you to go for the 300b Cayin?


I had a closer look and it looks like there's a Luxman P-750u, maybe a Denafrips Terminator on top of it, and another big bottle tube amp on the other side.

It is quite the collection, and fronted by the HOLO May DAC, it looks like. 

But with all those amps, @donato , how do you feed them without constant disconnecting and connecting cables? I still haven't found a good/highend preamp that has say 2 inputs & 5 outputs.


----------



## Benny-x

jambaj0e said:


> How does the Susvara sound on the HA-300? I've heard the LCD-4 on mine, and while I love it, the soundstage especially the vocal is just a bit more intimate and closed in vs my LCD-3. So even though I may lose a bit more purity and transient speed, tonality and soundstage wise I prefer my LCD-3 over the LCD-4.


Do you mean you prefer the LCD-3F over the LCD-4 *on the HA-300*, or in total?

Have you ever tried the LCD-3C?


----------



## donato (Apr 11, 2021)

Just some day 1 thoughts and musings:

First off, I love the build quality and the aesthetic works for me.  I previously owned a Primaluna amp and my understanding is that these were (at least at one time) built in the same factory.  The paint finish reminds of the Primaluna.  I like the thick solid front faceplate with the cutout.  The Cayin nameplate is a littly blingy but I have something similar on my Luxman, so sure why not.  The umbilical cord is impressively substantial and gives a very solid industrial aesthetic.  The switches can seem a little insubstantial next to all the rest of the build.  VU meters are fun retro touch.  Using an orange light is a good match I suppose for a tube amp since some of the light comes up through the driver tube sockets and at least it kind of matches tube glow.

it's interesting to hear the these 300b tubes warm up, with all the pinging they do.  It kind of makes me think of the old radiators in grade school that would clang, but this is much more musical sounding 

I did most of my listening with the stock tubes, but I briefly do some rolling.  The first thing that came across to me was the soundstaging and how expansive it was.  The second was that there was a bit of extra warmth in the bass, which could be quite pleasing in many cases, but a bit too much on some tracks that already had some prominent bass.

I know there have been discussions in the past about the XLR vs. RCA inputs and that the XLR input will go through a transformer to convert the signal to single ended.  The purist in me wants to just use RCA and bypass addition al component, but reality is not so cut and dried.  For one, it depends on the quality of the respective outputs on your source component; some DACs are know for having one output better than the other (e.g. Yggy is supposed to have much better balanced output) so it would clearly make sense to use whichever was better from your source.  In my case, I am using a Holo May DAC which has separate circuitry to power the single ended and balanced outputs.  I also had sets of same length Norne Silvergarde S4 interconnects in both RCA and XLR.  I could flip back and forth between RCA and XLR inputs.  Obviously, there is a volume difference so I had to compensate by adjusting the volume.  This brings me a bit to the stepped attenuator. I believe it's 24 steps and from reading earlier posts, there was also a design compromise to balance the gain between steps to handle HP volume changes as well as speaker output volume changes.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who wishes there were more steps or it was a non-stepped attenuator, but undoubtedly there are always cost/performance tradeoffs.  Because of the jumps in the stepped attenuator, I wasn't able to quite level match between the two inputs since it seems to be somewhere in between the gain of 2 and 3 steps of adjustment (and it's tricky to do anyway).  All of that being said, I didn't find a significant difference between the two inputs.  So my recommendation would be use whichever is the best output your source has.  The only other potential consideration is the additional gain the XLR input provides.  If you need more gain, than XLR might be beneficial; if you want finer control between steps in adjustment, then go with RCA inputs.  I did have some potential concerns that since my DAC (and I know others e.g. DAVE) run much higher output levels than standard and whether or not that could overload/saturate the input transformer, but again, I didn't find anything that concerned me.

I know this was noted in previous discussions, but I don't recall the explanations for this, but maybe someone can clarify regarding he power output from the various outputs with the different impedance settings is curious to me.  The amp outputs 1.8W/2.2W/3.7W on balanced, 1.1W/2.4W/5.0W single ended for the L/M/H impedance settings.  Why does the single ended have higher output power on M and H compared to balanced and why is it so much lower on single ended?  Any why is the speaker output able to do 8W?  I assume this all has to do with how the various taps are coming off of the output transformer, but it makes me wonder what compromises there are with such a discrepancy between single ended and balanced output and both those vs. the speaker output.  personally, I don't have a use case for speaker outputs (although I can certainly understand if others do), so my personal preference would have been to just be a pure HP amp focused on optimizing that performance (e.g. the Viva is unapologetically a headphone amp only).  Although I certainly can't blame Cayin for including that feature because there are no doubt plenty who would be unhappy if that option hadn't been there.  But again, I still wonder about some of the compromised that might have been involved (e.g. stepped attenuator is another).

As far as tube rolling went.  I did mention that I found the stock WE6SN7 tubes seem to have a bit of extra warmth in the bass (and possibly some rolloff).  As a couple examples, in Girl from Ipanema which seems to be recorded a bit thick to begin with this began very thick.  Similarly with Holly Cole's Tempatation, bass would get a bit thick.  I tried switching in some Melz 1578 (appear to be 1979 vintage) that I also purchased from Level5.  this seemed to tame that added warmth a bit and perhaps provide a little bit more subbass extenstion, but I really need to test out.  These tubes seem to sputter a bit so these may have to go back.  I also briefly tried some TS BGRP 6f8g via adapter, but to briefly to have an opinion.  I have a pretty decent collection of 6sn7 so I'll have some fun rolling.

I'm very interested in tube rolling the 300b tube.  In my Viva, I'm using a PsVane ACME which I like a lot (only tried the stock and a Psvane Treasure Mk. II) and I know others have posted the 300b is quite good. Someone mentioned to me that Torq likes the Western Electric 300b new production, but it doesn't seem like anyone on this thread has posted about it.  If you have used that, I'd be interested.  Elrog would also be on my list, but I read that they can be a bit analytical, which is probably not what I'm looking for.  In any case, I'd love to hear some recommendations.

Regarding rectifier tubes, I know rolling those have been briefly discussed and I'm probably not that interested in rolling those, but how do you know when to replace them?  Is it only when they fail or is there some other indicator?  Do you replace them in pairs (and which way left/right or front/back together) or as a quad?

@jambaj0e as to your questions about LCD-4 and Susvara, I thought the LCD-4 worked fine and sounded quite good, but the bass was probably still a bit loose compared to SS or more power amps (e.g. Viva), but I need to do more listening, but again, still very enjoyable.  Note that I use oratory EQ which also has a -8.3db level compensation, but it still did fine.  I did not think the Susvara sounded very good.  It could sound quite congested  and the bass became a bit wooly and thumpy.  This was one of the primary reasons I bought the Viva because it was one of the few SET amps that could drive the Susvara adequately.  I used XLR input to maximize gain and tried both RCA and XLR out as well as the different impedance settings.  I also noticed that even at moderate volume the VU meters were pretty much pegged at 100.  I don't think this is a good pairing.  However, with the HEK SE which has very moderate power requirements, I thought this was a very enjoyable combination - plus the soundstaging ability of the HEK SE with the amp made for a nice combination.

in any case, that's probably enough for day 1, lol.

Info on my setup:
Roon (local files, Tidal, Qobuz) -> HQPlayer (sinc-M upsampling up to 768K, sinc-M, LNS15) -> Sonore UltraRendu -> May DAC (NOS mode)
Headphones primarily used: LCD-4 (EQ'd to oratory settings) and Norne Silvergarde S3, Susvara (with Dekoni FSS pads) Norne Vykari, HEK SE with Norne Silvergarde S3


----------



## donato

Benny-x said:


> I had a closer look and it looks like there's a Luxman P-750u, maybe a Denafrips Terminator on top of it, and another big bottle tube amp on the other side.
> 
> It is quite the collection, and fronted by the HOLO May DAC, it looks like.
> 
> But with all those amps, @donato , how do you feed them without constant disconnecting and connecting cables? I still haven't found a good/highend preamp that has say 2 inputs & 5 outputs.



Yes, Luxman P-750u (good eye!).  On top of that, it's a Pass XP12 preamp and further below I have a Pass XA25 amp that I use with speaker taps.  I bought almost all of this during the pandemic.  I've been working from home/remote even before the pandemic so I'm at my desk all the time and then with all the travel plans and dining not happening, I finally just decided to go for it.

Yes, unforunately I do end up having to switch things around manually if I want to use different equipment so I can't really quickly A/B things that way.  I mentioned that I have a May DAC which has solid outputs for both the RCA and XLR (i.e. separate circuitry to power) so I can normally have at least 2 things connected full time.  I've thought about daisy chaining things (e.g. Pass preamp has HT bypass mode, etc.), but just trying to keep simple.  And really, comparing gear is kind of tedious so when I do listening, I'll primarily just use one setup.  I used to switch things around a lot more in the past, but then I'd have a setting wrong or whatever so I've been trying to keep listening sessions simple and just enjoy the music.


----------



## jambaj0e

Benny-x said:


> Do you mean you prefer the LCD-3F over the LCD-4 *on the HA-300*, or in total?
> 
> Have you ever tried the LCD-3C?



Oh yes, the my LCD-3F vs my friend's LCD-4. I preferred the soundstage and tonality of my LCD-3F over the LCD-4. And do you mean the LCD-2C or LCD-XC? I had listened to the LCD-X on my HA-300, and I feel the LCD-3F sounded better, too.

I think in the Audeze line, I'll wait for the LCD-5, lol. I do really want to listen to the upper echelon of ZMFs, as well as the Final Audio 8000 Pro, T+A headphones, and the Abyss Phi TC


----------



## Benny-x

jambaj0e said:


> Oh yes, the my LCD-3F vs my friend's LCD-4. I preferred the soundstage and tonality of my LCD-3F over the LCD-4. And do you mean the LCD-2C or LCD-XC? I had listened to the LCD-X on my HA-300, and I feel the LCD-3F sounded better, too.
> 
> I think in the Audeze line, I'll wait for the LCD-5, lol. I do really want to listen to the upper echelon of ZMFs, as well as the Final Audio 8000 Pro, T+A headphones, and the Abyss Phi TC


That's pretty interesting, thanks for sharing about the 3F vs. 4. 

And naw, I did in fact mean the 3C, which is the "unofficial" name for the "Classic", non-fazor version of the LCD-3 that came out first. I'm not sure, but I think the 3F is also an unofficial name for the latter razor version. I -think- they're both officially just called LCD-3 and then the non-fazor vs. fazor is just a spec. Kinda like the updated LCD-4s when they changed the impedance of the drivers from like 200-Ohm to 100/120-Ohm. 

LCD-5s, they've, they've got to be in the works, eh? I found the full-size, over-ear headphone scene was going gangbusters there for a few years, but the new model release seems to have hit a lull from all the big players the past 2-3 years. It's got to be a calm before the storm...


----------



## Benny-x

donato said:


> Yes, Luxman P-750u (good eye!).  On top of that, it's a Pass XP12 preamp and further below I have a Pass XA25 amp that I use with speaker taps.  I bought almost all of this during the pandemic.  I've been working from home/remote even before the pandemic so I'm at my desk all the time and then with all the travel plans and dining not happening, I finally just decided to go for it.
> 
> Yes, unforunately I do end up having to switch things around manually if I want to use different equipment so I can't really quickly A/B things that way.  I mentioned that I have a May DAC which has solid outputs for both the RCA and XLR (i.e. separate circuitry to power) so I can normally have at least 2 things connected full time.  I've thought about daisy chaining things (e.g. Pass preamp has HT bypass mode, etc.), but just trying to keep simple.  And really, comparing gear is kind of tedious so when I do listening, I'll primarily just use one setup.  I used to switch things around a lot more in the past, but then I'd have a setting wrong or whatever so I've been trying to keep listening sessions simple and just enjoy the music.


Nice gear! Even a Pass XP12 pre! 

And what I meant about the cables wasn't for comparison purposes, it was just for regular listening. I also have ~5-6 amps, 4-5 headphones, and 1 main DAC, and it literally drives me up the wall to keep unplugging and plugging cables when I want to listen to the desired pairing. 

I hunted for a "modern" preamp that had 1-2 XLR ins + 5-6 XLR outs, but I eventually gave up and started down the custom path because there aren't any nice ones out there. The closest I could find were more like pro audio switching boxes, but even then it wasn't that easy to find one that had the I/O I needed. 

So haha, I was just kinda fishing to see if you might have an answer to that. Too bad, my custom journey continues. That one is a thorn in my foot, but I can't live with the unplugging and plugging cables thing for the rest of my life.


----------



## infinitejustice

Question for those with the HA-300, I tried it multiple times with several headphones, it pair really well with some of my favorite headphone, and I’m thinking of getting one, just a matter of timing.

I also have a large collection of IEMs, HA300 seems already too powerful that the like of Focal dynamic headphone is almost too sensitive for it, would it be possible to use HA300 with IEMs? Has anyone tried?


----------



## donato

Benny-x said:


> Nice gear! Even a Pass XP12 pre!
> 
> And what I meant about the cables wasn't for comparison purposes, it was just for regular listening. I also have ~5-6 amps, 4-5 headphones, and 1 main DAC, and it literally drives me up the wall to keep unplugging and plugging cables when I want to listen to the desired pairing.
> 
> ...



I always worry about additional equipment and cables degrading the sound (although most of the time it's probably irrelevant).   I wonder if there are some passives that might give you some of that switching (multiple output capability).   I could have sworn I saw some.


----------



## Benny-x

donato said:


> Just some day 1 thoughts and musings:
> 
> First off, I love the build quality and the aesthetic works for me.  I previously owned a Primaluna amp and my understanding is that these were (at least at one time) built in the same factory.  The paint finish reminds of the Primaluna.  I like the thick solid front faceplate with the cutout.  The Cayin nameplate is a littly blingy but I have something similar on my Luxman, so sure why not.  The umbilical cord is impressively substantial and gives a very solid industrial aesthetic.  The switches can seem a little insubstantial next to all the rest of the build.  VU meters are fun retro touch.  Using an orange light is a good match I suppose for a tube amp since some of the light comes up through the driver tube sockets and at least it kind of matches tube glow.
> 
> ...


I got a new pair of Elrog 300Bs, but just after that I learned that they've got new set called 300B-Mo with a thoriated tungsten filament and a Molybdenum Plate. They're quite a bit more expensive than the standard version, which go for about $1200 USD new for a matched pair. 

However, unfortunately due to covid my tubes are stuck at my parents house on the other side of the world and I won't risk shipping them here, so I can't share any feedback on how they sound. 

As for the pairing, the experience you had with the Susvaras might be the kind of demand for a more dynamic tube like the Elrogs, or even like the hotter EML 300B-XLS?

I'd like to try the Pavane ACMEs, then there's also the newcomer Linlai, from some old Pavane engineers.


----------



## Benny-x

donato said:


> I always worry about additional equipment and cables degrading the sound (although most of the time it's probably irrelevant).   I wonder if there are some passives that might give you some of that switching (multiple output capability).   I could have sworn I saw some.


As I went down this road, the issue with totally passive preamps is that the outputs are all seen by the input, i.e. the DAC. So the risk is that the the sum of all the loads and impedances will become too little, then ruin the damping factor, and then the sound quality will deteriorate. It could be fine, but then it limits the functionality of the preamp because you need to watch out wgat the specs are of the gear you're connecting to it are. 

Passive preamps aren't a free lunch, unfortunately. I have an AVC preamp now by Bent Audio, but I'm working on rebuilding the I/O with input and output buffers to mitigate the total impedance issue. 

You could take care of that with a relay switch on the outputs, since most of us are only looking for 1-2 outputs at a time, but then it does add another connection inline. The only nice relay switches like that that I know of are quite out reach of the one-off scene.


----------



## Andykong

donato said:


> Just some day 1 thoughts and musings:
> 
> First off, I love the build quality and the aesthetic works for me.  I previously owned a Primaluna amp and my understanding is that these were (at least at one time) built in the same factory.  The paint finish reminds of the Primaluna.  I like the thick solid front faceplate with the cutout.  The Cayin nameplate is a littly blingy but I have something similar on my Luxman, so sure why not.  The umbilical cord is impressively substantial and gives a very solid industrial aesthetic.  The switches can seem a little insubstantial next to all the rest of the build.  VU meters are fun retro touch.  Using an orange light is a good match I suppose for a tube amp since some of the light comes up through the driver tube sockets and at least it kind of matches tube glow.
> 
> ...



So excited to have a senior HeadFi members onboard with HA-300.  Your system is jaw-dropping, and you can describe sound in great detail, that is a very good start for fruitful exchanges and interaction.

The Speaker output is 8 watt per channel at 8 ohm, the much lower impedance loading changed the output rating.  

We design and wind the output transformer in-house, so we have total control on the wire used in different layer and the wiring instruction were developed by our R&D department specifically. Since the speaker and headphone output are independent taps from output transformer, they have their own wiring requirement and don't affect each other, and we don't need to compromise the headphone output because of inclusion of speaker terminals.

The stepped attenuator is a custom make components, the setting of steps have to take care of both speaker and headphone applications, and this indeed is a compromise to certain extend.  The 24 volume steps are generally adequate for different headphones we tired, but if you need to perform volume matching to, for example, within 1dB range, we need a lot more than 24 steps to do that correctly.   

I was surprised by the power rating figures when I received the specification form R&D Engineer and I asked the same question.  They explained how they wind the output transformer to achieve different impedance and resulted in the output rating, I couldn't understand the technical detail but form what I gathered, the single-end and balanced output are fairly independent form each other, so the output rating are not directly corelated to each other.  Sorry for unable to provide more detail on this subject.


----------



## Andykong

infinitejustice said:


> Question for those with the HA-300, I tried it multiple times with several headphones, it pair really well with some of my favorite headphone, and I’m thinking of getting one, just a matter of timing.
> 
> I also have a large collection of IEMs, HA300 seems already too powerful that the like of Focal dynamic headphone is almost too sensitive for it, would it be possible to use HA300 with IEMs? Has anyone tried?



I have tried, but only a small proportion of IEMs are feasible, my UERM is rated at 50ohm and that is barely OK. Multi-BA at 16 Ohm or below is unlikely to work.  Pure Dynamic IEMs has a slightly higher chance than Hybrid and Multi-BA in my experience.


----------



## donato

Andykong said:


> So excited to have a senior HeadFi members onboard with HA-300.  Your system is jaw-dropping, and you can describe sound in great detail, that is a very good start for fruitful exchanges and interaction.
> 
> The Speaker output is 8 watt per channel at 8 ohm, the much lower impedance loading changed the output rating.
> 
> ...



@Andykong thanks for taking time to read my post and to respond to my questons.  I'm really enjoying this amp!


----------



## xand

Andykong said:


> The stepped attenuator is a custom make components, the setting of steps have to take care of both speaker and headphone applications, and this indeed is a compromise to certain extend.  The 24 volume steps are generally adequate for different headphones we tired, but if you need to perform volume matching to, for example, within 1dB range, we need a lot more than 24 steps to do that correctly.



Oh, it would be really nice if the ha300 had more volume steps to accommodate more headphones, and a 4.4mm output. 😬


----------



## llamaluv

I'm looking for impressions of how the Auteur fares with the HA-300. What I suspect is that it should synergize well, and maybe/possibly/hopefully _really _well. 

I'm sorely tempted to get one -- I mean get one _again_ -- and by again, I mean for a _third time_, actually  -- just in order to see...


----------



## jambaj0e

llamaluv said:


> I'm looking for impressions of how the Auteur fares with the HA-300. What I suspect is that it should synergize well, and maybe/possibly/hopefully _really _well.
> 
> I'm sorely tempted to get one -- I mean get one _again_ -- and by again, I mean for a _third time_, actually  -- just in order to see...


How well does your HA-300 run the Phi-TC?


----------



## llamaluv

jambaj0e said:


> How well does your HA-300 run the Phi-TC?



It does very well with the TC. And I do like the TC on tube amps generally (in contrast to the Susvara, where I have a clear bias for solid state).

However, I'm ... probably going to put my TCs up for sale, due to only liking them, but not loving them. 

But on the Auteurs, now I have one on order, so eventually, I'll be able to find out the answer to the question I asked.


----------



## jambaj0e

llamaluv said:


> It does very well with the TC. And I do like the TC on tube amps generally (in contrast to the Susvara, where I have a clear bias for solid state).
> 
> However, I'm ... probably going to put my TCs up for sale, due to only liking them, but not loving them.
> 
> But on the Auteurs, now I have one on order, so eventually, I'll be able to find out the answer to the question I asked.



@kyle1010 his TC is up for sale, and he said it sounds great on tubes!


----------



## rmsanger

I’m interested in buying an HA-300 if anybody Is looking to sell theirs.  I was saving up for a Flux Volot but frankly I’m tired of waiting so am ready to make an investment in tubes.  There is a HA-6a listed on the classified but frankly i think the HA-300 will be more to my liking to pair with the 1266 Phi TC and HE6 SE V2 along with my other Hps.

I figure I’d give it a month on here before heading to the US distributor.


----------



## jambaj0e

rmsanger said:


> I’m interested in buying an HA-300 if anybody Is looking to sell theirs.  I was saving up for a Flux Volot but frankly I’m tired of waiting so am ready to make an investment in tubes.  There is a HA-6a listed on the classified but frankly i think the HA-300 will be more to my liking to pair with the 1266 Phi TC and HE6 SE V2 along with my other Hps.
> 
> I figure I’d give it a month on here before heading to the US distributor.



DM me your email, I'll connect you to my dealer, he may be abe to get you a good deal one.


----------



## jambaj0e (May 1, 2021)

Got a bit bored and finally swapped out the stock RCA 22DE4 rectifier tubes with the NOS GE 22DE4 and I gotta say, it's a welcome improvement! A bit more body and sweetness to the mids and vocals. It's a cheap tube to get and I recommend you guys try it out!

Has anyone tried out the Sylvania 22DE4s?


----------



## ThanatosVI

donato said:


> Just joined the club (bought from @Level5 )!  A bit too soon give impressions since I just unboxed and set it up a couple hours ago, but more to come.


After 3 weeks now, how do you like your ha300?


----------



## jambaj0e

By the way @Andykong what's the reasoning for choosing the 22DE4 for rectifiers?


----------



## ThanatosVI

jambaj0e said:


> By the way @Andykong what's the reasoning for choosing the 22DE4 for rectifiers?


I asked this myself, why not 274B or 5U4G?


----------



## jambaj0e

jambaj0e said:


> Got a bit bored and finally swapped out the stock RCA 22DE4 rectifier tubes with the NOS GE 22DE4 and I gotta say, it's a welcome improvement! A bit more body and sweetness to the mids and vocals. It's a cheap tube to get and I recommend you guys try it out!
> 
> Has anyone tried out the Sylvania 22DE4s?



So I went back to the stock RCA 22DE4 rectifier tubes. Things I've noticed w/ the GE after a few days. There is indeed more body in the mids and midbass, but the vocal seems to also become "less in the space" but not exactly forward. The width of the soundstage hasn't changed, but I feel things have flattened a bit front to back. What's worse, there are times where vocal harmonies, like in the chorus of Christina Perri's A Thousand Years where I can hear mild distortion within those harmonies.

Now that I switched back, there is slightly less body, but much better imaging and spatial separation. Things sound more distinct, tighter. And maybe that's what I thought was the "fuller body" at first, it's more flattening and clumping of texture. I feel I hear more micro details with the RCAs now. This is all very noticeable on M83's Outro, which I think is real great torture test for separation with so many instruments and chords happening.


----------



## kimdeug

Hey Cayin HA300 lovers

Try to get few 22DE4 tubes as spare. But can not find them as quad sell or bigger stock for sell available.
Any links will be very helpful.

Regards, 
Kim


----------



## donato

ThanatosVI said:


> After 3 weeks now, how do you like your ha300?



Enjoying it, but I have to admit I have I haven't given it as much listening time as I should.  Too much other gear distracting me, but I do need to spend some serious time with it.  I'd like to try some upgraded 300b tubes to see what it can really do.


----------



## ThanatosVI

donato said:


> Enjoying it, but I have to admit I have I haven't given it as much listening time as I should.  Too much other gear distracting me, but I do need to spend some serious time with it.  I'd like to try some upgraded 300b tubes to see what it can really do.


I'd be interested in EAT 300B


----------



## llamaluv

kimdeug said:


> Hey Cayin HA300 lovers
> 
> Try to get few 22DE4 tubes as spare. But can not find them as quad sell or bigger stock for sell available.
> Any links will be very helpful.
> ...


For reference, I reached out Musictek, where I got the amp in the U.S., and they ordered me a quad from Cayin for $112 USD.


----------



## jambaj0e

ThanatosVI said:


> I'd be interested in EAT 300B


Ooo, I am interested in that one, too, although I'm super happy with my Psvane ACME 300b tubes!


----------



## jambaj0e (May 5, 2021)

kimdeug said:


> Hey Cayin HA300 lovers
> 
> Try to get few 22DE4 tubes as spare. But can not find them as quad sell or bigger stock for sell available.
> Any links will be very helpful.
> ...



How about these? You can order the set of 4

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373501234037


----------



## jambaj0e (May 7, 2021)

@Andykong I have a HUGE problem with my Cayin HA-300! It's been working just fine with the Psvane ACME 300b + NOS pair of Sylvania 6sn7w metal base for the last year or so, but today. I had nothing from the right channel, then all of a sudden I have a loud clicking sound even with the volume all the way down. What's worse, I see a flash of white light emitting from under the  right ACME 300b.

I swapped those with the stock TJ Full music tubes, and that at least fixes it, BUT now the right channel is about -20-25dB lower than the left channel per the VU meter, even on a simple sine test. I've swapped the two 300bs around, as well as the 6sn7w tubes and the rectifier tubes around, and the VU meters are still showing -20 to 25 dB less on the right channel. What can I do here? I bought the Cayin HA-300 on February 14th, 2020 from Musicteck.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> @Andykong I have a HUGE problem with my Cayin HA-300! It's been working just fine with the Psvane ACME 300b + NOS pair of Sylvania 6sn7w metal base for the last year or so, but today. I had nothing from the right channel, then all of a sudden I have a loud clicking sound even with the volume all the way down. What's worse, I see a flash of white light emitting from under the  right ACME 300b.
> 
> I swapped those with the stock TJ Full music tubes, and that at least fixes it, BUT now the right channel is about -20-25dB lower than the left channel per the VU meter, even on a simple sine test. I've swapped the two 300bs around, as well as the 6sn7w tubes and the rectifier tubes around, and the VU meters are still showing -20 to 25 dB less on the right channel. What can I do here? I bought the Cayin HA-300 on February 14th, 2020 from Musicteck.


 Pleaae contact MusicTeck immediately, you probably need to send the amp to their technicia for inspection.  Your tests eliminated tube prolems already, so unless I falsify your test (whch doesn't make sense until we cnconduct the test ourselves), we need to examine the amplifier before we can diagnosis the prolem properly.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> For reference, I reached out Musictek, where I got the amp in the U.S., and they ordered me a quad from Cayin for $112 USD.


The 22DE4 are low cost vacuum tubes,but it cost a lot to send them to US, with double box and extra foam.  Try to puchase locally if you could.

22DE4 as rectifier tube has very long expected life span, they can easily last 3-5 years of regular use. You don't need to have matched pair or quad set with 22DE4. They are mean to isolate the power supply from each other, so each tube is working independently, and they will age at different pace.  You can swap out one tube only instead of changing two or four tubes at the same time.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Pleaae contact MusicTeck immediately, you probably need to send the amp to their technicia for inspection.  Your tests eliminated tube prolems already, so unless I falsify your test (whch doesn't make sense until we cnconduct the test ourselves), we need to examine the amplifier before we can diagnosis the prolem properly.



Yeah, I've been in contact with them, and they said I can either ship it back to them at my cost, as well as pay for repair, or I can try a local repair in Los Angeles. Unfortunately, I'm literally 3 months past the 1-year warranty, which is really awful. Now I have to pay for the expense and shipping, and buy a new set of ACME 300bs, which I also bought 1 year and 2 months ago.

For such a high-priced purchase, I'm really not happy that both has failed me in just a little over a year. It's like buying a car with 36,000 mile warranty and having it break down at 40,000 miles.


----------



## Strayngs

jambaj0e said:


> Yeah, I've been in contact with them, and they said I can either ship it back to them at my cost, as well as pay for repair, or I can try a local repair in Los Angeles. Unfortunately, I'm literally 3 months past the 1-year warranty, which is really awful. Now I have to pay for the expense and shipping, and buy a new set of ACME 300bs, which I also bought 1 year and 2 months ago.
> 
> For such a high-priced purchase, I'm really not happy that both has failed me in just a little over a year. It's like buying a car with 36,000 mile warranty and having it break down at 40,000 miles.


I don’t blame you for being upset. This stinks.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Pleaae contact MusicTeck immediately, you probably need to send the amp to their technicia for inspection.  Your tests eliminated tube prolems already, so unless I falsify your test (whch doesn't make sense until we cnconduct the test ourselves), we need to examine the amplifier before we can diagnosis the prolem properly.


Musictek said I could try a local repair shop, too, since it's out of warranty. I have found a reputable local repair in Los Angeles, but they absolutely need the schematics. Can you send me via msg or email that schematics as soon as possible? 

I really don't want to have to ship it from Los Angeles to New York if I don't have too.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> Musictek said I could try a local repair shop, too, since it's out of warranty. I have found a reputable local repair in Los Angeles, but they absolutely need the schematics. Can you send me via msg or email that schematics as soon as possible?
> 
> I really don't want to have to ship it from Los Angeles to New York if I don't have too.



Sorry, we can't provide a schematic to customer or unauthorized technician, that is an important trade secret to our brand.  Really sorry about that.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Sorry, we can't provide a schematic to customer or unauthorized technician, that is an important trade secret to our brand.  Really sorry about that.


Well why can't you get a technician certified in the West Coast then? The United States is huge and shipping across the country for such a large amp is very expensive!


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Sorry, we can't provide a schematic to customer or unauthorized technician, that is an important trade secret to our brand.  Really sorry about that.


Do you have an authorized technician in Los Angeles? If not, why not?


----------



## Andykong (May 9, 2021)

jambaj0e said:


> Do you have an authorized technician in Los Angeles? If not, why not?



You have no idea about the authorisation process and the risk involved in this exercise.  We got burned badly way back when we trusted the wrong person.  The damages ranged from copycat to inappropriate comment to our products.

Your request and question is unfair and unreasonable.  Please go through the proper repair and service channel, there is nothing I can help regarding your case from this point forward.


----------



## jambaj0e

OK, do you know if Kevin Bourke from Tube Tek (or Anthony's Electronic Service) out of Illinois is a Cayin authorized tech? He said he is and it's cheaper to ship to Chicago to fix.


----------



## Andykong

For the record, Cayin has two authorized distributor/dealer for Personal Audio products in US (HERE):

*RSM Communications Inc.*
Michael Brown
250 South Ronald Reagan Blvd Ste 108 Longwood, FL 32750
800-506-0628

*Musicteck*
Address:15 Jefferson Ave Tenafly, NJ 07670
Phone: 917-576-4365 +1-9175764365


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> For the record, Cayin has two authorized distributor/dealer for Personal Audio products in US (HERE):
> 
> *RSM Communications Inc.*
> Michael Brown
> ...


What about a list of certified technicians, then?


----------



## UntilThen

jambaj0e said:


> What about a list of certified technicians, then?



I find what you're going through totally awful and to be left without help uninmaginable especially with all your good feedback for this amp in the past.


----------



## jambaj0e

UntilThen said:


> I find what you're going through totally awful and to be left without help uninmaginable especially with all your good feedback for this amp in the past.


It is what separates the high-end manufacturers apart, not just the wonderful tech and gear, but the service and support behind it. I wish Cayin could have a bigger presence here in the US just like how Woo Audio has. They both compete for the same set of clientele in the same general price range, but Woo Audio have a superior support, dealer network, and other intangibles.


----------



## rmsanger

Just curious... what is the difference on shipping the HA300 from LA to FL than say LA to Seattle?   Are we talking $25 or $200 ?


----------



## jambaj0e

rmsanger said:


> Just curious... what is the difference on shipping the HA300 from LA to FL than say LA to Seattle?   Are we talking $25 or $200 ?


I have no idea, but the shipping weight is about 76 lbs. Big ol' box and all. Why, what's in Seattle?


----------



## ThanatosVI

jambaj0e said:


> It is what separates the high-end manufacturers apart, not just the wonderful tech and gear, but the service and support behind it. I wish Cayin could have a bigger presence here in the US just like how Woo Audio has. They both compete for the same set of clientele in the same general price range, but Woo Audio have a superior support, dealer network, and other intangibles.


Woo audio has probably the better Support, but internationally they certainly don't have a better Dealer network.
I.e. here in germany I'd have to order directly from Woo Audio in america. No Chance to Audition them at all.
However that means I'd also have international warranty and no distributor Mark up. (Which can be a tremendous price increase on cayin products)
Cayin doesn't offer international warranty at all...
This leaves us with vastly different scenarios depending on region. 

However Cayin isn't alone there McIntosh for example has even stricter sale and warranty restrictions.


----------



## paradoxper

You can likely find a DIY-builder to repair this amp. 

In fact, I am positive we may even publish our own schematics and put this company out of business as it deserves.

What a piss poor representation of a company.


----------



## UntilThen

paradoxper said:


> You can likely find a DIY-builder to repair this amp.
> 
> In fact, I am positive we may even publish our own schematics and put this company out of business as it deserves.
> 
> What a piss poor representation of a company.


You put in words what I haven’t brought myself to do yet but that’s my sentiments.

This should be none of my business but reading what happened to Jam is beyond sad.

After all the praise and good publicity he has given this amp, he deserves more.


----------



## Strayngs

UntilThen said:


> I find what you're going through totally awful and to be left without help uninmaginable especially with all your good feedback for this amp in the past.


Yes Cayin has left this gentleman high and dry. The first surprise for me was that they only give 1 year for warranty. Most manufactures will let the time slide if it is close. I actually physically broke the speaker binding post on my PrimaLuna. I contacted them asking if they would sell me a OEM binding post. They responded that they would, but instead asked me to ship my amp to their service center (upscale audio). I had to pay shipping there, but they fixed it for free and they paid for the return shipping for something I broke! What a contrast to the comments given by the Cayin representative on this tread. Truly disappointing.


----------



## Sampajanna

My experience with Cayin customer service has been awful as well--dismissive, impolite, bounced back to dealerr, etc... Great amp but poor service imo. YMMV


----------



## jambaj0e

At least Musictek was helpful enough that when I took it to a local tube amp repair guy here from Westrex, they gave him guidance on what to fix, etc.


----------



## kimdeug

jambaj0e said:


> At least Musictek was helpful enough that when I took it to a local tube amp repair guy here from Westrex, they gave him guidance on what to fix, etc.


Finger cross for you. I have Cayine HA-6A and can imagine your pain.


----------



## Strayngs

I would have bought a HA-6A last week except I read the customer service issue here. Customer service is significant factor when I buy. Jeff Wells gives amazing customer service. Therefore my new Wells Audio Dragon level II will be arriving via UPS today!


----------



## infinitejustice

Just got it delivered today, my entry into the world of tube amp. Any recommendation for newbie?


----------



## ThanatosVI

infinitejustice said:


> Just got it delivered today, my entry into the world of tube amp. Any recommendation for newbie?


Congratulations, tube amps are amazing and you started out BIG!

Unfortunately there is no turning back now, once you heard tube magic you're corrupted for life.


----------



## UntilThen

infinitejustice said:


> Just got it delivered today, my entry into the world of tube amp. Any recommendation for newbie?



Remove the cage. 300b tubes need to be shown, not caged up.... and banish the kids and cats.


----------



## 425455 (May 20, 2021)

infinitejustice said:


> Just got it delivered today, my entry into the world of tube amp. Any recommendation for newbie?



tube zoo ...

you don't want those aggressive little tubes to break out and wreak havoc...

But seriously, you must have pets/kids or play volley ball in that room.

Respect ...

edit ... my bad .. that's how they are delivered ... makes sense!


----------



## infinitejustice

drlorks said:


> tube zoo ...
> 
> you don't want those aggressive little tubes to break out and wreak havoc...
> 
> ...


I do have two kids... But that is also why I put it up at the top of the cupboard, out of reach. 

So you're right on two counts..... because it's also delivered in this condition, lol.


----------



## jambaj0e

jambaj0e said:


> At least Musictek was helpful enough that when I took it to a local tube amp repair guy here from Westrex, they gave him guidance on what to fix, etc.





I got my ha-300 back! Since I don't have another pair of Psvane Acme 300b tubes, I went back to the TJ full music. Jake From Westrex was very impressed how musical it sounded, and I realized I have the Sylvania 6sn7 3-hole bad boys on there instead of the Sylvania 6sn7w metal base tubes. 

I listened to both sets and for the TJ Full music, it does sound better when paired with the bad boys, especially in the midrange. 

That being said, I really do miss the fast transient and airiness of the Acme 300b. 

But I'm going a different route for 300b. I ordered the reissue Western Electric 300b. I can't wait to get those in my HA-300 amp! 

Here's a photo of what was removed and replaced. The orange wire wound resistor was replaced, and surprisingly, Jake said when he talked to a Cayin tech, they told him to remove the Tacmen resistors completely as they're not needed. Strange, huh? 



You can see where they are originally located inside the amp, towards the bottom center of this factory photo.


----------



## UntilThen

@jambaj0e I am glad there's a happy ending to your saga because a 300b amp sound is special and you get a chance to buy outrageously expensive 300b tubes.  Do report back on how those WE300b tubes sound when you get them. I did read about Psvane Acme 300b tubes but after your experience I'll skip it.  

As a matter of fact I did think about getting a Cayin HA-300 sometime ago but I procrastinate .... then I got one custom made that is call Destiny. It's taking way too much of my time now for nearly a month.


----------



## jambaj0e

UntilThen said:


> @jambaj0e I am glad there's a happy ending to your saga because a 300b amp sound is special and you get a chance to buy outrageously expensive 300b tubes.  Do report back on how those WE300b tubes sound when you get them. I did read about Psvane Acme 300b tubes but after your experience I'll skip it.
> 
> As a matter of fact I did think about getting a Cayin HA-300 sometime ago but I procrastinate .... then I got one custom made that is call Destiny. It's taking way too much of my time now for nearly a month.


I still highly recommend the ACME, especially if you can get it from a more reputable dealer (I got mine from China-hifi-Audio.com, and while it was a great deal, I'm a little wary of them: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en...p-2143?zenid=eb036ae6c80cc3ce7dc772ad60292230 )

The sound from the ACME 300b is definitely hi-fidelity, audiophile grade sound that's not analytical or cold, but refined, fast, open, has amazing instrumental separation, and sounds just slightly warm.  Let's hope the WE300b will blow it away.

I can tell where the TJ Full Music stock sounds a bit slow, congested at times when there's a lot going on in the mids, but they are still fine musical tubes.

Anyone tried the Melz 1578 6sn7 tubes, by the way? I want to try those, as well as the Linlai 6sn7 tubes, too.


----------



## ThanatosVI

jambaj0e said:


> I still highly recommend the ACME, especially if you can get it from a more reputable dealer (I got mine from China-hifi-Audio.com, and while it was a great deal, I'm a little wary of them: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en...p-2143?zenid=eb036ae6c80cc3ce7dc772ad60292230 )
> 
> The sound from the ACME 300b is definitely hi-fidelity, audiophile grade sound that's not analytical or cold, but refined, fast, open, has amazing instrumental separation, and sounds just slightly warm.  Let's hope the WE300b will blow it away.
> 
> ...


I haven't tried them but heard really good things about the Linlai


----------



## UntilThen

I have only tasted Psvane 300b mesh plates and Genalex Gold Lion PX300. They are at the cheaper end of the town but they sounded great to me and have astonishing glow.


----------



## ThanatosVI

UntilThen said:


> I have only tasted Psvane 300b mesh plates and Genalex Gold Lion PX300. They are at the cheaper end of the town but they sounded great to me and have astonishing glow.


How would you compare them to each other?
Are the Gold Lions as good as their KT88 counterparts?


----------



## dpump

Was it the Acme tube that caused the problem or you can't be sure what it was?


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> How would you compare them to each other?
> Are the Gold Lions as good as their KT88 counterparts?


The Psvane mesh plates stood out in the top and bottom end. Gold Lion 300b is great in the mids and bass and smoother.

It’s hard to compare Gold Lion 300b with KT88. They are just living on the different side of town. I have though found current production Gold Lion tubes very good in tonality. I also have their KT77. They are a good 2nd choice after their NOS cousins.


----------



## jambaj0e

The other more affordable 300b that I do want to try or maybe you guys should try out too is the TJ Full Music SE Special Edition 300b. There have been several good reviews on it:

http://shop.diyhifisupply.com/product/tj-fullmusic-300b-se-special-edition-matched-pair/

TJ Full Music Carbon Plate 300B Getting to the heart and soul of the performance.


----------



## jambaj0e

dpump said:


> Was it the Acme tube that caused the problem or you can't be sure what it was?


Oh yeah, it was definitely the ACME that caused it. The tube repair guy said there was a defect inside where two things touched that shouldn't and created a short and white flashed. That caused a high voltage into the resistor. Luckily I only had it on for a few seconds before I turned it off and swapped tubes.

The wire-wound resistor that got damaged affected the volume output so I was consistently getting lower volume on the right channel. Now both channels are equal again.


----------



## ThanatosVI (May 20, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> The Psvane mesh plates stood out in the top and bottom end. Gold Lion 300b is great in the mids and bass and smoother.
> 
> It’s hard to compare Gold Lion 300b with KT88. They are just living on the different side of town. I have though found current production Gold Lion tubes very good in tonality. I also have their KT77. They are a good 2nd choice after their NOS cousins.


I really meant only the comparison to the PSVane. Thanks for that.

The comment about the KT88 was about their standing among KT88s.
These reissued Gold lions are amazing KT88s especially for the money and with many tube types people go "NOS or bust"
So what I meant to ask is, if these reissued Gold Lion 300Bs can also keep up with most NOS 300B tubes. Guess I could have phrased it like that from the beginning

Edit: btw I also have a pair of Gold lion kt77s, they are also great


----------



## UntilThen

ThanatosVI said:


> I really meant only the comparison to the PSVane. Thanks for that.
> 
> The comment about the KT88 was about their standing among KT88s.
> These reissued Gold lions are amazing KT88s especially for the money and with many tube types people go "NOS or bust"
> ...



The general consensus is that the Gold Lion 300b is considered the best at the $500 mark and below but as usual it's individual preference. The next logical step up would be the KR Audio 300b ... I think. Then the Takatsuki TA-300.  

With Odyssey coming in July or August, I'll have the chance to test out Gold Lion KT88, Psvane classic KT88 Tii and Shugang KT88 50 years treasures and Svetlana KT88. Maybe GEC KT88 at a later stage. So many tubes to buy and they are all expensive.  

I agree that the Gold Lion KT77 is a gem for not much money.


----------



## jambaj0e (Jun 2, 2021)

Hello Western Electric 300b!

Since my Psvane Acme 300b tubes flashed white and sent my Cayin Ha-300 amp to repair (replaced a wire-wound resistor) last month, I thought might as well upgrade my tubes, and the Western Electric 300b was the obvious choice.


Took almost 3 weeks to have one allocated and shipped straight from the factory, but it's worth having.

Compared to the stock TJ Full music, this is already a much more dynamic, musical tubes. Better mids, open treble, tight bass, wider Soundstage, and much better image separation are what I noticed right out of the box.

This is also a better tube than the Psvane Acme 300b tubes, at least out of the box, but not by a substantial amount. I'd be willing to bet the sound will continue to get better after a few hundred hours, though.

What I also noticed at first power on, though is a lot of clicks, pops, and pings, which freaked me out, but they disappeared after a few minutes. I did read this is common with these new tubes, so crossing fingers.


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> Hello Western Electric 300b!
> 
> Since my Psvane Acme 300b tubes flashed white and sent my Cayin Ha-300 amp to repair (replaced a wire-wound resistor) last month, I thought might as well upgrade my tubes, and the Western Electric 300b was the obvious choice.
> 
> ...


They look fabulous and like a work of art in the box. Keep us up dated with how they settle in. It seems as if the QA at PSvane isn't as good as it could be and you were lucky not to sustain any more damage. Can I ask what 6SN7 you are using as I cannot tell from the photos, are they Tung Sol?


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> They look fabulous and like a work of art in the box. Keep us up dated with how they settle in. It seems as if the QA at PSvane isn't as good as it could be and you were lucky not to sustain any more damage. Can I ask what 6SN7 you are using as I cannot tell from the photos, are they Tung Sol?



Thanks, and yeah, let's hope these will fare better. The 6SN7s here are the Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boy that I had paired w/ the stock TJ Full Music. I'm gonna use them while burning in the WE300B for a week, then try on my more expensive and rarer Sylvania 6SN7W metal tubes.


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> Thanks, and yeah, let's hope these will fare better. The 6SN7s here are the Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boy that I had paired w/ the stock TJ Full Music. I'm gonna use them while burning in the WE300B for a week, then try on my more expensive and rarer Sylvania 6SN7W metal tubes.


Good luck with the WEs I am sure they will be of high quality manufacture and should not blow up your HA300 again. What kinds of difference have you had with your 2 sets of Sylvanias may I ask? I was looking at Tung Sols as I heard that 300B amps pair well with a GTB version 6SN7. I think overall and for the price of the HA300 itself that it does come with pretty decent stock valves and that is certainly not true with some other companies out there.


----------



## jambaj0e

Sigh, so I'm having problems with my Cayin HA-300 again. This time, I'm getting this buzzy, pitchy hum, almost like buzzy air coming out of a balloon or if you rub your hand across a balloon. I thought it may be my new power cable, but the old one does the same. I changed all the tubes, and it's still doing it. It's sometimes constant, sometimes intermitten.

I haven't added any new devices in my room, so I can't imagine it's some new RFI or anything. The noise doesn't register on the VU meter, nor is it affected or muted by the volume knob.  What can be causing this @Andykong  ?


----------



## dadracer2

jambaj0e said:


> Sigh, so I'm having problems with my Cayin HA-300 again. This time, I'm getting this buzzy, pitchy hum, almost like buzzy air coming out of a balloon or if you rub your hand across a balloon. I thought it may be my new power cable, but the old one does the same. I changed all the tubes, and it's still doing it. It's sometimes constant, sometimes intermitten.
> 
> I haven't added any new devices in my room, so I can't imagine it's some new RFI or anything. The noise doesn't register on the VU meter, nor is it affected or muted by the volume knob.  What can be causing this @Andykong  ?


Could it be an earthing issue? Have you checked all your other cables going into the amp to be sure they are seated fully? Otherwise not sure, sorry.


----------



## jambaj0e

dadracer2 said:


> Could it be an earthing issue? Have you checked all your other cables going into the amp to be sure they are seated fully? Otherwise not sure, sorry.


Yeah, I've unplugged and replugged my amp, swapped power cables, swapped tubes, unplugged and replugged my XLRs and RCAs, took off the RCA completely since they're not what I use between the TT2 to the HA-300, then tried only RCAs no XLR, but still the same issue.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> Sigh, so I'm having problems with my Cayin HA-300 again. This time, I'm getting this buzzy, pitchy hum, almost like buzzy air coming out of a balloon or if you rub your hand across a balloon. I thought it may be my new power cable, but the old one does the same. I changed all the tubes, and it's still doing it. It's sometimes constant, sometimes intermitten.
> 
> I haven't added any new devices in my room, so I can't imagine it's some new RFI or anything. The noise doesn't register on the VU meter, nor is it affected or muted by the volume knob.  What can be causing this @Andykong  ?





jambaj0e said:


> Yeah, I've unplugged and replugged my amp, swapped power cables, swapped tubes, unplugged and replugged my XLRs and RCAs, took off the RCA completely since they're not what I use between the TT2 to the HA-300, then tried only RCAs no XLR, but still the same issue.



Did the hum remain constant or change when you switch among different impedance or volume position?

You can reset the system with cables and power cords that you used previously and the hum remains, so we can ruled out the cables.  What is your source to your TT2?  computer to USB?  Can you remove the USB and test the system with coaxial or optical?  Just to eliminate the hum is USB ground related?


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Did the hum remain constant or change when you switch among different impedance or volume position?
> 
> You can reset the system with cables and power cords that you used previously and the hum remains, so we can ruled out the cables.  What is your source to your TT2?  computer to USB?  Can you remove the USB and test the system with coaxial or optical?  Just to eliminate the hum is USB ground related?



The hum sometimes fluctuates in pitch and can be intermittent. I can't remember if it change w/ impedance, but volume doesn't affect it, nor does it go away at 0 volume.
Strange thing is when I swapped to optical or COAX, the hum is still there. Also, when I use the TT2's headphone jack directly, no hum.

Now it has been fine all the way to yesterday afternoon when I listened to it before I went running. Then I didn't listened to my system until after I ate dinner and took a shower, and that's when the problem started.

Nothing was physically touched on my system other than the power button and volume, and no other new devices were plugged in.

But, good news is that this morning, I powered it on this morning. There was a little fuzz for a few seconds, but nothing since. It's been about 20 minutes in, no awful hums, even when I start and stop songs


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> The hum sometimes fluctuates in pitch and can be intermittent. I can't remember if it change w/ impedance, but volume doesn't affect it, nor does it go away at 0 volume.
> Strange thing is when I swapped to optical or COAX, the hum is still there. Also, when I use the TT2's headphone jack directly, no hum.
> 
> Now it has been fine all the way to yesterday afternoon when I listened to it before I went running. Then I didn't listened to my system until after I ate dinner and took a shower, and that's when the problem started.
> ...


That's good start, let's hope this will remain in good shape from here on.

From what  you described, the impedance setting probably won't affect the hum, but when  you run into that again, do give it a try.

Since the system was fine before dinner and nothing was physically touched before it turn bad, logically it's very likely a HA-300 hardware problem.  So let's keep a close eye from here on and don't change anything in next few days.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> That's good start, let's hope this will remain in good shape from here on.
> 
> From what  you described, the impedance setting probably won't affect the hum, but when  you run into that again, do give it a try.
> 
> Since the system was fine before dinner and nothing was physically touched before it turn bad, logically it's very likely a HA-300 hardware problem.  So let's keep a close eye from here on and don't change anything in next few days.



Well, the bad news is that this morning, after half hour, the noise came back. Then I had to leave the house, and I just got home, so I'm trying it again to see if the noise come back again this time. It's so weird because of how it doesn't always appear, and it doesn't always appear around the same time


----------



## jambaj0e (Jun 11, 2021)

So it's still making the buzz, and I turned off my Chord Hugo TT2 right away and it's still there, so it doesn't seem to be the source, nor can I replicate the sound through the TT2's headphone jack.

The buzz is also a lot quieter, so much so that I could barely hear it from the Tekton Lore Reference speakers, and it's just a bit there on my Audeze LCD-3.

But the biggest thing I found is that it's only coming out of the left channel. I thought it was both, but I flipped the headphones around, and it certainly traveled with the left ear cup!

And if anything, the "buzz" kinda sounds like a mix of air out of a balloon and static noise.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> Well, the bad news is that this morning, after half hour, the noise came back. Then I had to leave the house, and I just got home, so I'm trying it again to see if the noise come back again this time. It's so weird because of how it doesn't always appear, and it doesn't always appear around the same time





jambaj0e said:


> So it's still making the buzz, and I turned off my Chord Hugo TT2 right away and it's still there, so it doesn't seem to be the source, nor can I replicate the sound through the TT2's headphone jack.
> 
> The buzz is also a lot quieter, so much so that I could barely hear it from the Tekton Lore Reference speakers, and it's just a bit there on my Audeze LCD-3.
> 
> ...



Move the HA-300 and Huto TT2 to a different location, if you can find a place where you are absolutely sure that there is zero or very litter RF and ground interference, that would be the ideal testing spot.  If the noise appear again, then you can eliminate interference as the source of the noise.

At that point, you really should send the amplifier to Musicteck for a thorough check. You probably won't like my suggestion but this is the correct suggestion IMHO.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Move the HA-300 and Huto TT2 to a different location, if you can find a place where you are absolutely sure that there is zero or very litter RF and ground interference, that would be the ideal testing spot.  If the noise appear again, then you can eliminate interference as the source of the noise.
> 
> At that point, you really should send the amplifier to Musicteck for a thorough check. You probably won't like my suggestion but this is the correct suggestion IMHO.



But the thing is, I haven't added anything new into the room in a year. The last thing I added to the system was that power cable that I've since took out. Plus, how could it be RF or ground interference when I didn't experience that the whole morning and afternoon with listening to music, but did so from last night into today? That is strange. Also, it is still only on the left channel, regardless of RCA or XLR cables used, too.

I'm waiting to cool the tubes down and swap the 300b tubes around.


----------



## Andykong (Jun 11, 2021)

jambaj0e said:


> But the thing is, I haven't added anything new into the room in a year. The last thing I added to the system was that power cable that I've since took out. Plus, how could it be RF or ground interference when I didn't experience that the whole morning and afternoon with listening to music, but did so from last night into today? That is strange. Also, it is still only on the left channel, regardless of RCA or XLR cables used, too.
> 
> I'm waiting to cool the tubes down and swap the 300b tubes around.


Eliminate the unexpected is an effective method to debug an audio system, especially from third party perspective.

RF interference can be originated from a nearby location, ground interference can be orginatee from anywhere sharing the same main ground, theoretically.


----------



## jambaj0e

The buzz traveled with the we300b tube! I swapped them, and the weird noise traveled to the right channel! On both the headphone and speaker, the noise is now on the right channel, not left! Next thing I'll have to do is take the WE300b out completely.


----------



## jambaj0e

@Andykong while I wait for the tubes to cool down, is there still a chance there's something to be checked out internally with the HA-300?


----------



## jambaj0e

Ok, so far so good with the stock TJ Full Music tubes. I really hope that this problem is now behind me and I will get a replacement Western Electric 300b tubes soon. Ugh, so disappointed that this happened, though.


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> @Andykong while I wait for the tubes to cool down, is there still a chance there's something to be checked out internally with the HA-300?



Other then checking the fuse inside the HA-300, we don't recommend user to check out anything internally with HA-300, that's liability issue.  Since your HA-300 is driving the headphones without any problem, it doesn't related to the fuse.



jambaj0e said:


> The buzz traveled with the we300b tube! I swapped them, and the weird noise traveled to the right channel! On both the headphone and speaker, the noise is now on the right channel, not left! Next thing I'll have to do is take the WE300b out completely.



I was under the assumption that you have fall back to previous tubes and the only changes were interconnects and power cord.  If the noise shift from left to right when you swap the 300B tubes, then the tubes are suspicious.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> Other then checking the fuse inside the HA-300, we don't recommend user to check out anything internally with HA-300, that's liability issue.  Since your HA-300 is driving the headphones without any problem, it doesn't related to the fuse.
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the assumption that you have fall back to previous tubes and the only changes were interconnects and power cord.  If the noise shift from left to right when you swap the 300B tubes, then the tubes are suspicious.


I still don't even know how to check the fuse inside, lol, nor would I want to open it myself. 

And yeah, I didn't have time to swap the 300bs until last night when I had more time. So you think I should be OK to use my new power cable, then? I'd assume if it was bad, it would've affected a whole lot more of the system, rather than just one tube...

Also, just got this email from Western Electric's support: "Based on the detail you've given us, you may have what we call a "leaker," or gassy tube. This problem can be quite difficult to detect during final inspection and sometimes goes for years without notice. "


----------



## Andykong

If the amplifier runs stable with another set of 300B tubes, then the new 300B tube probably is the primary suspect. 

I didn't know any detail about your power cord, so I can't make any judgement at this point.  Can't image your hum is caused by a bad power cord.  Common problem with power cords are wrong connection or bad connection, or low voltage leaks to the chassis of the amplifier, nothing like the problem you have encountered.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> If the amplifier runs stable with another set of 300B tubes, then the new 300B tube probably is the primary suspect.
> 
> I didn't know any detail about your power cord, so I can't make any judgement at this point.  Can't image your hum is caused by a bad power cord.  Common problem with power cords are wrong connection or bad connection, or low voltage leaks to the chassis of the amplifier, nothing like the problem you have encountered.



That's what I suspect, too, especially given it affected one channel and the problem followed the WE 300b when I swapped channel and ultimately removed the WE300b completely from the system.


----------



## llamaluv

I feel like I should have asked this a long time ago, but out of curiosity, what is the output impedance when the impedance switch is at L, M, and H, and for XLR and SE outputs respectively? 

Thanks.


----------



## jambaj0e

llamaluv said:


> I feel like I should have asked this a long time ago, but out of curiosity, what is the output impedance when the impedance switch is at L, M, and H, and for XLR and SE outputs respectively?
> 
> Thanks.



The impedance is at M, which is where my Audeze LCD-3 is happiest at. This is for both XLR and SE, although I only use the XLR.


----------



## llamaluv

jambaj0e said:


> The impedance is at M, which is where my Audeze LCD-3 is happiest at. This is for both XLR and SE, although I only use the XLR.


I was asking about the impedance rating in ohms of the HA-300 when at the three impedance positions for the SE and XLR outputs. 

I probably should have at'ed @Andykong in my question above...


----------



## jambaj0e (Jun 17, 2021)

So in the ongoing saga of my Western Electric 300b, I got my replacement WE300b yesterday, and put them into my HA-300, which has been running dead silent w/ the stock TJ Full Music 300b when no music's playing.  Sadly, the left channel tube (the working original WE300b) does have a low-volume radio static kind of noise that's particularly notable in the first 10-15 minutes, although it can kinda come back later, but much harder to hear.

The replacement 300b does not make this noise. 

Last night, right before I went to sleep and with all the lights off, I noticed that the WE300b gives out a glow, so I took this photo from my phone (Huawei P40 Pro rocks in low light!). I sent that photo as well as what I'm hearing from the original tube to Western Electric's support.

They called me the next day. Turns out Western Electric 300b suppose to have a blue glow, BUT only in the top portion just like the replacement tube on the right. The glowing gas in the left meant that it's leaking or something because that gas is spreading downward. So they told me to send another RMA and they'll send me another replacement tube.

Other than the low, low level noise from the left channel tube, the tubes do sound great, and the support and warranty from Western Electric is world class. 5 years warranty with 90 day return goes a long way to keep me as their client. I'm looking forward to the 2nd replacement tube.


----------



## ThanatosVI

jambaj0e said:


> So in the ongoing saga of my Western Electric 300b, I got my replacement WE300b yesterday, and put them into my HA-300, which has been running dead silent w/ the stock TJ Full Music 300b when no music's playing.  Sadly, the left channel tube (the working original WE300b) does have a low-volume radio static kind of noise that's particularly notable in the first 10-15 minutes, although it can kinda come back later, but much harder to hear.
> 
> The replacement 300b does not make this noise.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing these impressions. 
A welcome difference to EML warranty


----------



## UntilThen

Blue glow from some 300b tubes are not uncommon. Genelax Gold Lion 300b tubes have blue glow too.

Kudos to WE for their outstanding warranty support but I'm concern that you'll be on your 2nd replacements of WE 300b tubes.


----------



## jambaj0e

UntilThen said:


> Blue glow from some 300b tubes are not uncommon. Genelax Gold Lion 300b tubes have blue glow too.
> 
> Kudos to WE for their outstanding warranty support but I'm concern that you'll be on your 2nd replacements of WE 300b tubes.



Yeah, he said perhaps the batch that I got both tubes had issues, so even though they have tested electronically and with computer matching, things like this don't show up until a decent amount of hours are burnt in (about 50 hours before problems occurred on both original tubes).


----------



## jambaj0e (Jun 19, 2021)

And then this happened. My buddy @kyle1010 brought over not only his week old Abyss Ab-1266 TC Headphone (worth a cool $5000) with the Danacable Lazuli Ultra cables, but also his Innuos Zenith mk3 streamer and Chord M Scaler with Wave Storm BNC cables.

With my system before the Zenith and M Scaler, my Audeze Lcd-3 sounds quite amazing, but the Abyss brought a whole new level of clarity, detail, and separation that I didn't know was missing.

The Lcd-3 did sound a bit more sweeter and  slightly more soulful in the vocals, though, but that is until we added the M Scaler and the Zenith into the mix.

What we discovered was that the gap between the two headphones expanded considerably. It's as if was 80% as good ad the Abyss, and now it's only 60% as good. The Abyss clearly scales much better when you started adding even more high end components into the mix.

There is a strong sense of confidence with where everything this is in the music spatially and clarity wise. For example, I thought the lcd-3 does a fine job with guitars, but the Abyss really shows when the guitarists play the steel VS nylon strings. You really can discern the difference. Everything just sounds more effortless, even when the layers of music got busier. Voice sounds even more alive and in your room VS just between the headphones.

That's also if you go through single-ended, as we found out right away the XLR jack makes the Abyss sound a bit distorted.

Single ended on high impedance is the best combination, and I can comfortably hear at around 65-70% volume level to match what I usually hear on the lcd-3.

In short, the Abyss Ab-1266  TC truly is an endgame headphone, and as long as you have enough power, it can really flex its muscle as you scale your components up.


----------



## ziggy72 (Jun 20, 2021)

Jambaj0e, how did the headphone output of the cayin sound compared with the Hugo tt2 / m scaler with the abyss headphones?
I own the abyss headphones with Auralic Aries G1, Vega G1 and Taurus mkii headphone amplifier and was looking for a higher powered amplifier to drive the abyss. I've been thinking of the chord combo and there is a used cayin ha300b available in the UK where I live also.
Your opinion would be appreciated.
PS I also owned both the Audeze LCD 3 fazor and LCD 4 and sold them to buy the Abyss which I much prefer.


----------



## rockna

hello, I just bought this amp, and so I join you on this forum to share with you


----------



## jambaj0e

rockna said:


> hello, I just bought this amp, and so I join you on this forum to share with you



Which headphone do you like most on it and do you prefer the sound from single-ended or balanced out?


----------



## rockna

this amp was built for focal, all the journalists noticed that it sounded extremely good with utopia, i don't have utopia, but i have its cousin stelia, and i see the same thing, stelia is a marvel with the cayin.
the kenerton also sounds great with an extremely colorful and warm sound that lends itself well to jazz and blues.
when my klipsh headphones are not good at all, they were better on my old mcintosh transistor amp.

how to say about about single or balanced , my DAC is linked to the cayin with XLR ( real cable ) , only the stelia use the XLR , it's very good ,  , i've tryed to use an adaptator on the stelia to use the 6.35 output , i did not really noticed a difference , there maybe some fews , but nothing important to my ears.

the difference is not on the output , if you want to upgrade the sound i highlly recommend you something like this 
if you live in the countryside it will have little effect, but if you live in the city it will protect your current from parasitic waves, thanks to this box of 250 € I have actually seen a difference in the quality of the sound, it goes without saying that you will also have to change the power cords of the cayin and your dac for armored models






I have a quick question, cayin made an effort by putting the correct tubes but I would like to go further by changing them, but I don't see where the BIAS setting is, is it automatic?


----------



## Andykong

rockna said:


> this amp was built for focal, all the journalists noticed that it sounded extremely good with utopia, i don't have utopia, but i have its cousin stelia, and i see the same thing, stelia is a marvel with the cayin.
> the kenerton also sounds great with an extremely colorful and warm sound that lends itself well to jazz and blues.
> when my klipsh headphones are not good at all, they were better on my old mcintosh transistor amp.
> 
> ...



The HA-300 is auto-biased.


----------



## rockna

thanks Andy ....


----------



## Sampajanna

Wonder if anyone could explain this: A friend loaned me a pair of 300B from EML. They work fine in his Woo audio. They are the normal one. Anyway, both times I rolled them in my Cayin, they blue the fuse... Tubes are perfectly fine back in other 300B amps. Very strange. Any ideas why this would be?


----------



## jambaj0e

rockna said:


> this amp was built for focal, all the journalists noticed that it sounded extremely good with utopia, i don't have utopia, but i have its cousin stelia, and i see the same thing, stelia is a marvel with the cayin.
> the kenerton also sounds great with an extremely colorful and warm sound that lends itself well to jazz and blues.
> when my klipsh headphones are not good at all, they were better on my old mcintosh transistor amp.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I have the PS Audio Power Plant 3 to power my Cayin HA-300 and Chord HUGO TT2 amp, which I also run XLR to the HA-300.  I think the HA-300 does benefit greatly w/ tube upgrades, and it is autobias, if I'm not wrong.


ziggy72 said:


> Jambaj0e, how did the headphone output of the cayin sound compared with the Hugo tt2 / m scaler with the abyss headphones?
> I own the abyss headphones with Auralic Aries G1, Vega G1 and Taurus mkii headphone amplifier and was looking for a higher powered amplifier to drive the abyss. I've been thinking of the chord combo and there is a used cayin ha300b available in the UK where I live also.
> Your opinion would be appreciated.
> PS I also owned both the Audeze LCD 3 fazor and LCD 4 and sold them to buy the Abyss which I much prefer.


Oh, the Hugo TT2 + M-Scaler + Cayin HA-300 + Western Electric 300b + Abyss TC combo is just amazing! Everything scaled well, and when it was just the TT2 + Cayin HA300, the Audeze LCD-3 and Abyss weren't too far apart, but once you add everything else, the TC has so much more headroom and a higher ceiling in terms of performance!


----------



## Treva (Jul 23, 2021)

I am extremely pleased to discover my HA-300 sounds magical when placed in my living lounge room HiFi system and connected to some sensitive 96 dB 4 ohm Tekton Encore floortstander speakers. Those eight watts are plenty watts for my apartment living. Question: if I start to use the HA-300 mostly for loudspeaker listening, will I wear it our more than if I used it mostly for easy-to-drive Sony Z1R headphone listening? Thanks, Trevor.


----------



## llamaluv

Sampajanna said:


> Wonder if anyone could explain this: A friend loaned me a pair of 300B from EML. They work fine in his Woo audio. They are the normal one. Anyway, both times I rolled them in my Cayin, they blue the fuse... Tubes are perfectly fine back in other 300B amps. Very strange. Any ideas why this would be?


For what it's worth, I was running EML 300Bs (also the normal ones, bought new in late 2019) for about six months without any issues.


----------



## Sampajanna

Thanks. Man oh man, it is strange because the stock tubes work just fine, so the amp is working just not with those tubes. Makes me scared to get other ones. And I have to say Cayin isn't much help either... Unbelievably, EML was far more helpful and it wasn't even their product. They were kind and even looked at the amp manual and offered suggestions to try. This is one of many times I have regretted buying Cayin....


----------



## vkenz

Sampajanna said:


> Thanks. Man oh man, it is strange because the stock tubes work just fine, so the amp is working just not with those tubes. Makes me scared to get other ones. And I have to say Cayin isn't much help either... Unbelievably, EML was far more helpful and it wasn't even their product. They were kind and even looked at the amp manual and offered suggestions to try. This is one of many times I have regretted buying Cayin....


Save yourself the trouble and buy the V281.  It is more tubey sounding that most tube amps with the right power cable.


----------



## Sampajanna (Jul 25, 2021)

What brand is the V281?
I "upgraded" to the Cayin because it sounds great with Focal and I hv Utopias amongst other cans. And that great synergy remains, but I have been disappointed with Cayin. The list is long: Their "official" dealers here dont have shops; they are just kids with online websites; their customer service is cold and off-putting/dismissive and they aren't keen to help you in any way. You may get the "ask your dealer" routine, and then the dealer says "ask Cayin..." I have encountered way more issues than any amp of this price should have, including defective stock tubes (never replaced!), EML tubes that dont work, etc... With hindsight, I wouldn't have bought this amp. I have expensive amps for my speaker rig and they had an issue and the manufacturer was all over it--super kind and helpful, replaced the issue and even gave me a gift to say sorry, which is above and beyond... What you are paying for with more expensive products should be kind and courteous, helpful customer service and careful QC to avoid problems as well. Just my two cents.


----------



## vkenz (Jul 25, 2021)

Sampajanna said:


> What brand is the V281?
> I "upgraded" to the Cayin because it sounds great with Focal and I hv Utopias amongst other cans. And that great synergy remains, but I have been disappointed with Cayin. The list is long: Their "official" dealers here dont have shops; they are just kids with online websites; their customer service is cold and off-putting/dismissive and they aren't keen to help you in any way. You may get the "ask your dealer" routine, and then the dealer says "ask Cayin..." I have encountered way more issues than any amp of this price should have, including defective stock tubes (never replaced!), EML tubes that dont work, etc... With hindsight, I wouldn't have bought this amp. I have expensive amps for my speaker rig and they had an issue and the manufacturer was all over it--super kind and helpful, replaced the issue and even gave me a gift to say sorry, which is above and beyond... What you are paying for with more expensive products should be kind and courteous, helpful customer service and careful QC to avoid problems as well. Just my two cents.


Go to the Violectric V281 thread.  I also have the Cayin HA300, Burson Soloist 3XP and V590, but I just don't use it as much as my V281.  With the V281 you can do power cable rolling with it to make it more euphonic or less.


----------



## Andykong

Treva said:


> I am extremely pleased to discover my HA-300 sounds magical when placed in my living lounge room HiFi system and connected to some sensitive 96 dB 4 ohm Tekton Encore floortstander speakers. Those eight watts are plenty watts for my apartment living. Question: if I start to use the HA-300 mostly for loudspeaker listening, will I wear it our more than if I used it mostly for easy-to-drive Sony Z1R headphone listening? Thanks, Trevor.



It won't.  In fact, the amplifier will work "harder" with some of the headphone application.  

The following table compare the Vrms output level of different HA-300 output options.  The speaker output,  balanced and singled-end low impedance headphone output are all rated at or below 8V, which is below 20% of the max output.  So the amplifier is operating at fairly low loading only, it won't affect the product life or tube life.  In the contrary of common expectation, the amplifier will work harder when using headphone output at high impedance setting.


----------



## Andykong

Sampajanna said:


> Wonder if anyone could explain this: A friend loaned me a pair of 300B from EML. They work fine in his Woo audio. They are the normal one. Anyway, both times I rolled them in my Cayin, they blue the fuse... Tubes are perfectly fine back in other 300B amps. Very strange. Any ideas why this would be?





Sampajanna said:


> Thanks. Man oh man, it is strange because the stock tubes work just fine, so the amp is working just not with those tubes. Makes me scared to get other ones. And I have to say Cayin isn't much help either... Unbelievably, EML was far more helpful and it wasn't even their product. They were kind and even looked at the amp manual and offered suggestions to try. This is one of many times I have regretted buying Cayin....





Sampajanna said:


> What brand is the V281?
> I "upgraded" to the Cayin because it sounds great with Focal and I hv Utopias amongst other cans. And that great synergy remains, but I have been disappointed with Cayin. The list is long: Their "official" dealers here dont have shops; they are just kids with online websites; their customer service is cold and off-putting/dismissive and they aren't keen to help you in any way. You may get the "ask your dealer" routine, and then the dealer says "ask Cayin..." I have encountered way more issues than any amp of this price should have, including defective stock tubes (never replaced!), EML tubes that dont work, etc... With hindsight, I wouldn't have bought this amp. I have expensive amps for my speaker rig and they had an issue and the manufacturer was all over it--super kind and helpful, replaced the issue and even gave me a gift to say sorry, which is above and beyond... What you are paying for with more expensive products should be kind and courteous, helpful customer service and careful QC to avoid problems as well. Just my two cents.



Sorry for your unpleasant experience with Cayin product.   The HA-300 is a relative stable product by now, so I didn't check out this thread as often.  I used to check thsi thread regularly two years ago, and participate in discussion promptly.

You can use both EML 300B and EML XLR 300B with HA-300.  the EML XLR 300B can offer higher output in some 300B based amplifier, but you can't take advantage of that with HA-300.  In other word, you can enjoy the sound signature of EML XLR 300B with HA-300, but not the benefit of extra output watts.

May I introduce the "Search this thread" feature for your reference.  If you type EML in this box and hit search, you'll find all the posts that mentioned EML in this thread, listed in chronological order.  You should notice from previous discussion that EML 300B should work fine with HA-300.  For example, llamaluv has shared his EML 300B experience briefly, and you can read his detail sharing *HERE*.

I cannot figure out the reason why your HA-300 will blow its fuse when you install the EML 300B, it shouldn't.  Sending your amp to your dealer for inspection will cost a lot, maybe you can send your EML 300B to your dealer and ask them to test them with their demo HA-300.  If it works with their unit, then the problem is with your HA-300 units.  If the tube don't work with your dealer's demo unit, then likely the problem is with your EML 300B.


----------



## Andykong

vkenz said:


> Go to the Violectric V281 thread.  I also have the Cayin HA300, Burson Soloist 3XP and V590, but I just don't use it as much as my V281.  With the V281 you can do power cable rolling with it to make it more euphonic or less.



The V281 is a very good headphone amplifier, I especially like its performance with low impedance headphones.  without any doubt, it is one of the best headphone amplifier in its price range, I wasn under the impression that V281 has been discontinued, would be great if they are making it again.

On the other hand, have you tried power cable rolling with HA-300? Shouldn't it display similar result as V281.  On the other hand, if you are referring to variation of sound signature, tube amplifier should have an edge over solid state amplifier.  You don't need to roll the 300B power tubes which are relatively expensive, just roll the 6SN7 driver tube and you can fine tune the sound signature to your preference.  I can't comment on the performance of HA-300 vs V281 because I haven't try them side by side, but I am quite sure the variation of sound signature offered by tube rolling is more significant that power cable rolling with V281.


----------



## Sampajanna

I didn’t get the tubes from dealer. But they work fine in other amp….. As I said, Cayin’s “official” dealers here are just fly by night websites. Useless. They just tell u to contact Cayin who then tells you to contact your dealer. What is strange is that the stock tubes work fine. I disagree that Cayin products are ”stable”. Search around and read reviews….


----------



## Andykong

Sampajanna said:


> I didn’t get the tubes from dealer. But they work fine in other amp….. As I said, Cayin’s “official” dealers here are just fly by night websites. Useless. They just tell u to contact Cayin who then tells you to contact your dealer. What is strange is that the stock tubes work fine. I disagree that Cayin products are ”stable”. Search around and read reviews….



This is undesirable for sure, our dealer should provide necessary after-sales support, if they run into issues that they are not knowledgeable with, they should ask Cayin team directly instead of asking the client to contact Cayin.  They have direct connection to Cayin staff beyond general CS service, so I am surprised that your Cayin dealer asked you to contact Cayin for technical product detail.    We do have a tendency to refer our customers to local dealer, we sign them up as the first contact point of our users, on the assumption of better customer interaction given they are in the same time-zone and use the same language.  I'll bring up your case to review our practise in near future.  

By the way, did you buy your HA-300 from MusicTeck?  They are on-line based without a store-front, but they have good reputation on after-sales support.


----------



## Sampajanna

No, I live in Taiwan.


----------



## Andykong

@Sampajanna looks like I can't help you to resolve your problem through forum discussion, may I refer you to the Sales Manager who look after International sales?  Drop an email to john@cayin.cn, I'll brief him the background information of your case, and you can talk to him regarding your HA-300 problem as well as discontent with your dealer, he is the right channel for both problems  you have encountered.


----------



## rockna

I changed my tubes for psvane, and I notice changes in the sound, it is drier, and faster note attacks, the bass is also very "degreased", the precision has been improved and the instruments are detach more, on the other hand I took a step back on the sound scene, with the original tubes I had the feeling to be in the first row of a scene, now I am in the 10th row


----------



## rmsanger

Anything in the works from Cayin to replace the HA-300 as their flagship amp?   The HA-6A came out so assumed at some point they would be working on a replacement/update for this...


----------



## ThanatosVI

rmsanger said:


> Anything in the works from Cayin to replace the HA-300 as their flagship amp?   The HA-6A came out so assumed at some point they would be working on a replacement/update for this...


I feel like it's way too soon for that.


----------



## Andykong

rmsanger said:


> Anything in the works from Cayin to replace the HA-300 as their flagship amp?   The HA-6A came out so assumed at some point they would be working on a replacement/update for this...



We are indeed working on a revision of HA-300.  We have completed the R&D process recently and is planning for production.  Normally this will take 2-3 months as we need to develop the supply chain and safety certification etc..  If everything go smooth, we should be able to deliver the new generation of HA-300 by end of year.  We hope the epidemic will become stable in next few months.  If not, we might suffer serious logistic and supplier delays and put everything on hold.  That's why we are skeptical to announce the new HA-300 officially.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Andykong said:


> We are indeed working on a revision of HA-300.  We have completed the R&D process recently and is planning for production.  Normally this will take 2-3 months as we need to develop the supply chain and safety certification etc..  If everything go smooth, we should be able to deliver the new generation of HA-300 by end of year.  We hope the epidemic will become stable in next few months.  If not, we might suffer serious logistic and supplier delays and put everything on hold.  That's why we are skeptical to announce the new HA-300 officially.


Any Details you can share?
Like differences to the current Ha300?


----------



## vkenz

Yeah like the details on the weight and size reduction maybe?


----------



## Ragnar-BY

Andykong said:


> If everything go smooth, we should be able to deliver the new generation of HA-300 by end of year.


Nice to hear that!


----------



## Andykong

ThanatosVI said:


> Any Details you can share?
> Like differences to the current Ha300?





vkenz said:


> Yeah like the details on the weight and size reduction maybe?



Technically, nothing is finalised until we have performed a trail production.  We are waiting for new parts, given the current global supply chain delay, this can take a while.


----------



## rmsanger

Andykong said:


> We are indeed working on a revision of HA-300.  We have completed the R&D process recently and is planning for production.  Normally this will take 2-3 months as we need to develop the supply chain and safety certification etc..  If everything go smooth, we should be able to deliver the new generation of HA-300 by end of year.  We hope the epidemic will become stable in next few months.  If not, we might suffer serious logistic and supplier delays and put everything on hold.  That's why we are skeptical to announce the new HA-300 officially.



Thanks Andy, I'm excited to hear a new model is in the works!  This will be my next targeted hifi purchase.


----------



## Ragnar-BY (Aug 22, 2021)

Andykong said:


> Technically, nothing is finalised until we have performed a trail production.


It would be nice to have direct input for bypassing volume pot in new gen amp. I assume that Cayin has a specific price range to fit in. And that price range would not allow to have good relay switching volume control with a lot of steps. On the other hand, tube amp is often not the only amp in house, so there is a good chance that it’s owner would have preamp already.


----------



## No Disc

Andykong said:


> We are indeed working on a revision of HA-300.  We have completed the R&D process recently and is planning for production.  Normally this will take 2-3 months as we need to develop the supply chain and safety certification etc..  If everything go smooth, we should be able to deliver the new generation of HA-300 by end of year.  We hope the epidemic will become stable in next few months.  If not, we might suffer serious logistic and supplier delays and put everything on hold.  That's why we are skeptical to announce the new HA-300 officially.


This revised unit will have a new model designation or will it remain the HA-300?


----------



## Andykong

No Disc said:


> This revised unit will have a new model designation or will it remain the HA-300?



Most probably will be renamed as HA-300MK2, like what we did to HA-1A and iDAC-6


----------



## No Disc

Andykong said:


> Hey, you are MK6+ and MK8se users? I owned MK6+ previously and had written a very long review for MK6+ vs MK8se before I join Cayin, they are marvelous headphone amplifiers.
> 
> Wander where you are located?  Little Dot has limited circulation outside China,
> 
> I tends to agree with you that HA-300 works well with highly resolving headphones.  In my experience, HA-300  works well with almost every dynamic headphone I throw to it.  I have tried, Utopia, Clear, HD800, T1, K812/K872,, and ZMF Auteur already and none has disappointed me so far.  The result with Planar is mixed.  Susvara, Thror (Kennerton), Empyrean and D8000 sounds very good but Abyss, HEK, Ether Flow are not as outstanding.  I haven't try Audeze yet and I am looking forwards to that,


Hey, I would not mind reading that very long review.  I am in mainland China and also in the market for some headphone amps, I am waiting for the HA-300MK2 but would not mind getting something sooner to tide me over until then.  If you have the review link handy, please share it.   I'm using Senn HD600 and Kinera Bladr IEM. 
​


----------



## rmsanger

A few questions for the HA-300 owners.

1) does it come with a remote for volume control?
2) How is the speaker output performance paired with something like a Tekton uruz (98dB 2.83V@1m sensitivity · 8 Ohm) or Zu Dirty Weekends Mk 2 (97 dB-SPL 1W, 1m - 12 ohm) ? 
2b)  I've tried something like the primaluna dialogue hp where it was great as a speaker amp but the hp amp was poor or somewhat of an afterthought.   Obviously the HA-300 is primarily a HP amp but when paired with efficient speakers have the results been positive or does it feel the like the speaker output was an afterthought?

3)  @Andykong  previous comments on this thread was the HA-300 was just an average pairing with the 1266 Phi TC.  With the mk 2 coming is there anything in the works that might improve the pairing or are we primarily limited with the 300b tube limitations in pairing with them?


----------



## vkenz

Andykong said:


> Most probably will be renamed as HA-300MK2, like what we did to HA-1A and iDAC-6


How many available color options?


----------



## HiGHFLYiN9

jambaj0e said:


> ...and my right 300b tube is out.
> 
> I switched the two 300bs tube and the one that didn't light up stayed off.
> 
> I switched out both 300b tube with another set of 300b tubes, and while they light up, I'm still not getting any sound or even any VU meter.


I'm having the same issue. I dropped the unit off at repair shop and they can't seem to figure out what the problem is. Was there ever any closure with this finding out what the specific issue is? Thanks.


----------



## Sampajanna

Probably fuse. The one inside= high voltage. that is what happened to me. These amps have serious issues. It seems like one of three people who has one has had repair issues. I would not upgrade, nor recommend Cayin to anyone. My HA 300 sounds great but I hv had more issues with it than any piece of kit I have owned. Not great service either….


----------



## Andykong

No Disc said:


> Hey, I would not mind reading that very long review.  I am in mainland China and also in the market for some headphone amps, I am waiting for the HA-300MK2 but would not mind getting something sooner to tide me over until then.  If you have the review link handy, please share it.   I'm using Senn HD600 and Kinera Bladr IEM.
> ​


The post dated all the way back to 2015, and it was written in Chinese, so you need to Google Translate the content which I am not optimistic because it was written in Cantonese for HK audiophiles.


----------



## Andykong

HiGHFLYiN9 said:


> I'm having the same issue. I dropped the unit off at repair shop and they can't seem to figure out what the problem is. Was there ever any closure with this finding out what the specific issue is? Thanks.



If you have changed your 300B power tubes in between, mostly like its the high voltage fuse inside the Power Supply unit.  I have send a PM to you for more detail.


----------



## Andykong

rmsanger said:


> A few questions for the HA-300 owners.
> 
> 1) does it come with a remote for volume control?
> 2) How is the speaker output performance paired with something like a Tekton uruz (98dB 2.83V@1m sensitivity · 8 Ohm) or Zu Dirty Weekends Mk 2 (97 dB-SPL 1W, 1m - 12 ohm) ?
> ...



HA-300 does not come with remote control.

Base on my personal experience, the speaker output of HA-300 can handle the Tekton and Zu speakers in your list.  It won't be very authoritative, which is quite normal when you go for 300B SETA in speaker setting.  8W Class A should be quite sufficient with 97/98 dB sensitivity speakers.

In my brief experience with Susvara and Abyss 1266 Phi TC, I think the Susvara is more demanding/power hungry between the two, both from specification and experience with several Cayin headphone amplifiers.  However I prefer Susvara over 1266 when HA-300 is in used.  I think this comes down to the sound signature instead of purely power and handling problem.  The 300B is a very sweat sounding tube, it offers very rich  harmonic with holographic presence, and midrange is always the outstanding part of the 300B amplifier.  Susvara takes advantage of the 300B characteristics nicely but when I go with 1266, on top of the regular high quality playback, I expect authoritative with rumbling base, airy and out of chart soundstage and very engaging presentation. 

The HA-300 is still a very capable amplifier for Abyss 1266, as you can read a lot of favourable impression of this paring in this thread.  When I look at it from the perspective of best synergy headphones for HA-300, I won't put Abyss 1266 on the top of the list; but if you look at this as a Abyss 1266 owner looking for high quality amplifier at $4000 budget, the HA-300 would be a good choice.  So the answer is more complicated than a black on white Yes/No answer.


----------



## No Disc

Andykong said:


> The post dated all the way back to 2015, and it was written in Chinese, so you need to Google Translate the content which I am not optimistic because it was written in Cantonese for HK audiophiles.


Lucky for me my wife speaks Cantonese.   Thank you.


----------



## llamaluv

Andykong said:


> In my brief experience with Susvara and Abyss 1266 Phi TC, I think the Susvara is more demanding/power hungry between the two, both from specification and experience with several Cayin headphone amplifiers.  However I prefer Susvara over 1266 when HA-300 is in used.  I think this comes down to the sound signature instead of purely power and handling problem.  The 300B is a very sweat sounding tube, it offers very rich  harmonic with holographic presence, and midrange is always the outstanding part of the 300B amplifier.  Susvara takes advantage of the 300B characteristics nicely but when I go with 1266, on top of the regular high quality playback, I expect authoritative with rumbling base, airy and out of chart soundstage and very engaging presentation.
> 
> The HA-300 is still a very capable amplifier for Abyss 1266, as you can read a lot of favourable impression of this paring in this thread.  When I look at it from the perspective of best synergy headphones for HA-300, I won't put Abyss 1266 on the top of the list; but if you look at this as a Abyss 1266 owner looking for high quality amplifier at $4000 budget, the HA-300 would be a good choice.  So the answer is more complicated than a black on white Yes/No answer.


I agree with your characterization of the Susvara with the HA-300. It was a very brief listen with the Susvara with the HA-300 at a CanJam that convinced me to get this amp. 

And I like the TC even more than the Susvara with the HA-300, actually. For me, the TC retains its big and dynamic sound with the HA-300, but also gains a smoother / less coarse midrange presentation, which in my opinion the TC sorely needs. And nice and full-bodied as well, which is also something the TC can lack in the midrange on setups that are too "neutral". I've listened to the TC and the Susvara on the HA-300 on and off for about 2+ years now.

Additionally, I've not heard a dynamic headphone I didn't like on the HA-300. I've listened to the Stellia, Denon D9200, Utopia, and ZMF Auteur, all at some length. 

The last thing I'd say as part of a summary of my time with this amp is that it's universally well-received by audiophile pals when they come and visit to listen to what I've got.


----------



## Benny-x

Ragnar-BY said:


> It would be nice to have direct input for bypassing volume pot in new gen amp. I assume that Cayin has a specific price range to fit in. And that price range would not allow to have good relay switching volume control with a lot of steps. On the other hand, tube amp is often not the only amp in house, so there is a good chance that it’s owner would have preamp already.


This is exactly the situation I'm in. I have a nice preamp and use it with the HA-300 along with several other amps, but it'd be even better of there was an onboard "volume pot bypass" and then ve really been wishing that lately. 

I suppose I'll be keeping my fingers randomly crossed since they're not looking for feature requests and R&D is already done.


----------



## Andykong (Sep 4, 2021)

Ragnar-BY said:


> It would be nice to have direct input for bypassing volume pot in new gen amp. I assume that Cayin has a specific price range to fit in. And that price range would not allow to have good relay switching volume control with a lot of steps. On the other hand, tube amp is often not the only amp in house, so there is a good chance that it’s owner would have preamp already.





Benny-x said:


> This is exactly the situation I'm in. I have a nice preamp and use it with the HA-300 along with several other amps, but it'd be even better of there was an onboard "volume pot bypass" and then ve really been wishing that lately.
> 
> I suppose I'll be keeping my fingers randomly crossed since they're not looking for feature requests and R&D is already done.



As I mentioned previously, we have completed R&D already and is proceeding to production planning, trial run and supply chain.  Pure power amplifier mode will not be featured in the HA-300 MK2.

If we have to implement a pure power amplifier mode, we don't just bypass the volume control, the situation is a lot more complicated than only bypassing the volume knob.  We need to bypass the first gain stage as well because the pre-amp output and line-level out of DAC are very different in voltage level.  The sound signature of the HA-300 will be significantly changed if we bypassed the 6SN7, and likewise if we implement similar feature to the MK2.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> I agree with your characterization of the Susvara with the HA-300. It was a very brief listen with the Susvara with the HA-300 at a CanJam that convinced me to get this amp.
> 
> And I like the TC even more than the Susvara with the HA-300, actually. For me, the TC retains its big and dynamic sound with the HA-300, but also gains a smoother / less coarse midrange presentation, which in my opinion the TC sorely needs. And nice and full-bodied as well, which is also something the TC can lack in the midrange on setups that are too "neutral". I've listened to the TC and the Susvara on the HA-300 on and off for about 2+ years now.
> 
> ...



I can proudly claim that versatility to mix and match with different headphones is one of the common strength of Cayin headphone amplifiers.  From iHA-6 to HA-6A and to our flagship HA-300, each of these headphone amplifiers are well-received to sound decent with almost anything that plug into it.  Our HA-1AMK2 probably is the least flexible in our desktop lineup, but that is in relative terms.  There can be some settings (or tube rolling) to deal with, but the flexibility is amazing.   

Thank you very much for sharing your experience of HA300 with Susvara and 1266 TC.  To generalise from your sharing, if someone owns the TC and is looking for an  amplifier to make up for certain sound signature requirements, the HA-300 become a very good alternative.  This is a new perspective to me, I am glad that you have bring this up.


----------



## Benny-x

Andykong said:


> As I mentioned previously, we have completed R&D already and is proceeding to production planning, trial run and supply chain.  Pure power amplifier mode will not be featured in the HA-300 MK2.
> 
> If we have to implement a pure power amplifier mode, we don't just bypass the volume control, the situation is a lot more complicated than only bypassing the volume knob.  We need to bypass the first gain stage as well because the pre-amp output and line-level out of DAC are very different in voltage level.  The sound signature of the HA-300 will be significantly changed if we bypassed the 6SN7, and likewise if we implement similar feature to the MK2.


Thanks for the reply, Andy. I really appreciate how hands on you are here with everyone's different comments here. 

If you could give me/us some advice, what's the best way to run the HA-300 if you're using it with a preamp and if all of the volume control will be done upstream via the preamp or if someone digitally reduces the volume in their system before the DAC? 

Is it just simply turn the volume all the way up and then the pot is "bypassed"? I get that that's a simplistic way to say it and you've got to be careful about sending too high a signal into the amp that way, but let's just say that we're being careful and that whatever the amp is passing to the connected headphones/speakers isn't going to hurt them or our ears.


----------



## Benny-x

Andykong said:


> I can proudly claim that versatility to mix and match with different headphones is one of the common strength of Cayin headphone amplifiers.  From iHA-6 to HA-6A and to our flagship HA-300, each of these headphone amplifiers are well-received to sound decent with almost anything that plug into it.  Our HA-1AMK2 probably is the least flexible in our desktop lineup, but that is in relative terms.  There can be some settings (or tube rolling) to deal with, but the flexibility is amazing.
> 
> Thank you very much for sharing your experience of HA300 with Susvara and 1266 TC.  To generalise from your sharing, if someone owns the TC and is looking for an  amplifier to make up for certain sound signature requirements, the HA-300 become a very good alternative.  This is a new perspective to me, I am glad that you have bring this up.


That's actually been a long discussed aspect of amp matching with the TC/1266. Probably it's greatest weakness are the mids, so finding a mid-centric amp to pair it with can help fill in part of the picture, pending that pairing doesn't have too many other tradeoffs. 

I don't have a TC yet, but I'm very much looking forward to trying them once I do. Hopefully on the list for next year, maybe with an HA-300mk2 upgrade~


----------



## Yggy

Absolutely love my Cayin HA-300 amp. I run it from a Melco N1ZS MKII EX to an Yggdrasil A2 with Unison USB and through Susvaras. Rolled a pair of NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases which took things up a gear and have a pair of WE300B new production tubes on order.

I tried a Cayin CS-100DAC in the week, it didn’t sound good to my ears. The tube sound, in particular, lacked punch and detail. It was smooth and polite but flat and lifeless. Probably a reflection on how good the Yggdrasil is for the money with a good USB source or how my ears have got used to its more forward, bigger, and holographic sound.

Has anybody tried the HA-300 with a Denafrips Terminator or Terminator Plus? I have a Terminator 2 on order. Hoping that will be a worthwhile upgrade for the Yggdrasil. The guy I bought my Yggdrasil from had upgraded to a Terminator and raved about it.


----------



## Yggy

New production WE300b tubes are an excellent upgrade for the HA-300. They sounded slightly odd for a few minutes because my ears were accustomed to the less tubey TJ Full Music 300b sound, instruments sounded more forward, and vocals more recessed. But after a few minutes I realised they were more detailed and lush than the stock tubes and I was hooked.

I considered Takatsuki 300b tubes but they were slightly more expensive and didn’t have the Western Electric 5 year warranty. I’m also a bit wary of anything tuned for Japanese audiophile ears. I worry I’d find it too analytical and polite. 

I read a lot about PSVane Acme 300b tubes, they seemed like the best “budget” option. They were about half the price of the new production WE300b tubes but had less than half the warranty period so I wondered if that was a false economy, considering the lingering concerns about Chinese tube longevity.

I’m fine buying Chinese, it’s a good way of maximising the bang for your buck in a high end market that can be ridiculously overpriced but I take a lot of convincing. Once convinced, I’m evangelical. I love my HiSusvara headphone. They are sublime and super comfortable. However, the quality is still questionable, the original (very soft and luxurious feeling) sheep skin ear pads fell apart within 100 hours of listening and I was handling them like a baby and storing them in a Hifiman hard case.

I switched the stock RCA 22DE4 tubes for a quad matched set of General Electric NOS 22DE4s from eBay for under USD 100. Hard to hear much of an improvement but I prefer them to the stock tubes, just.  

NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases and new production WE300b tubes really do turn the HA-300 into a different amp. The stock tubes are excellent, and on one level it’s ridiculous to spend 2/3 of what the HA-300 cost used upgrading all the tubes but a tube amp can only be as good as it’s tubes, however well designed it is.

Can’t wait for my Denafrips Terminator 2 to ship. Hopefully, will be any time now. Difficult to believe anything can sound as good as a permanently on Yggdrasil A2 with Unison USB fed hi res from a high end source without breaking the bank but from what I’ve read, it will. What a DAC the Yggy is though for the money. The guys at Schiit deserve a Nobel prize for services to affordable audiophilia.


----------



## Yassa

Andykong said:


> We are indeed working on a revision of HA-300.  We have completed the R&D process recently and is planning for production.  Normally this will take 2-3 months as we need to develop the supply chain and safety certification etc..  If everything go smooth, we should be able to deliver the new generation of HA-300 by end of year.  We hope the epidemic will become stable in next few months.  If not, we might suffer serious logistic and supplier delays and put everything on hold.  That's why we are skeptical to announce the new HA-300 officially.



I was going to purchase HA-300 as my first tube amp in November. Extremely happy I waited, thank you for confirming the update @Andykong.


----------



## rmsanger

@Andykong do you think this will be available to purchase in December on possibly shipping Jan ‘22 or is that to optimistic for timing?

also any sneak peaks In Mk2 improvements?  Do you think mk2 will be better pairing with PhI TC?

sorry to dig but I need something To keep from buying a burson soloist 3GT


----------



## Yggy

If I had Abyss 1266 Phi TC headphones, I’d get the Audiovalve Solista amp. Only downside is you can’t roll the tubes without invalidating your warranty. 

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/au...i-function-headphones-amplifier.24443/reviews


----------



## Yggy




----------



## Yggy

The blue glow of new production Western Electric 300b tubes in my Cayin HA-300. Shot in a dark room with an iPhone 12 Pro Max in night mode.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Audiovalve is not a good buy at the moment given their situation.


----------



## Nicolas Yance

Yggy said:


> The blue glow of new production Western Electric 300b tubes in my Cayin HA-300. Shot in a dark room with an iPhone 12 Pro Max in night mode.


They look really good. How do they sound?


----------



## rmsanger

Yggy said:


> If I had Abyss 1266 Phi TC headphones, I’d get the Audiovalve Solista amp. Only downside is you can’t roll the tubes without invalidating your warranty.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/au...i-function-headphones-amplifier.24443/reviews


thanks but hard pass on Audiovalve products... general feedback is they are swiss army knife of tube fine at many things but not great at any.  Appreciate the suggestion though!


----------



## Yggy

Nicolas Yance said:


> They look really good. How do they sound?


More tubey than the TJ Full Music stock 300b tubes. Lush, romantic, rich, ethereal, euphonic, more detailed, comfort food for your ears.

I’m listening to You Want It Darker by Leonard Cohen and they make his deep, growly, almost spoken voice sound sublime.

They beautify well recorded hi res vocals, acoustic music, and bass heavy modern pop and electronic music, in particular.


----------



## rsbrsvp

For those who have heard the WA33, how much better is it than the HA-300?  I Know the price difference is huge- but I still want to know- how close I get for a lot less...


----------



## Andykong (Oct 7, 2021)

Yassa said:


> I was going to purchase HA-300 as my first tube amp in November. Extremely happy I waited, thank you for confirming the update @Andykong.





rmsanger said:


> @Andykong do you think this will be available to purchase in December on possibly shipping Jan ‘22 or is that to optimistic for timing?
> 
> also any sneak peaks In Mk2 improvements?  Do you think mk2 will be better pairing with PhI TC?
> 
> sorry to dig but I need something To keep from buying a burson soloist 3GT








We are still in our National Anniversary Golden week, will resume operation tomorrow.

I don't have a lot of information before the holiday break.  Received a casual photo on the final prototype:   new color with 4.4mm phone out.  The design is 90% finalised, but I don't have a firm schedule, still waiting for green light.  The bottleneck is supply chain and logistic, components prices goes up like hell, and delays become a habit, that's why we still can't finalise the price and date.  My guess is, November is hopeful, December is very likely.


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> If I had Abyss 1266 Phi TC headphones, I’d get the Audiovalve Solista amp. Only downside is you can’t roll the tubes without invalidating your warranty.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/au...i-function-headphones-amplifier.24443/reviews



Audiovalve makes beautiful tube amplifiers, I used to spend a long time to admire their "white" tube headphone amplifiers in HiFi shows, they are one of its kind in the market.  I  hope they can resume when the pandemic quiet down.


----------



## ThanatosVI (Oct 7, 2021)

Andykong said:


> We are still in our National Anniversary Golden week, will resume operation tomorrow.
> 
> I don't have a lot of information before the holiday break.  Received a casual photo on the final prototype:   new color with 4.4mm phone out.  The design is 90% finalised, but I don't have a firm schedule, still waiting for green light.  The bottleneck is supply chain and logistic, components prices goes up like hell, and delays become a habit, that's why we still can't finalise the price and date.  My guess is, November is hopeful, December is very likely.


Finally in black.
Even a new Ha-6A.

Any mk2 changes on that one or just another color?

The color change on the Voltmeter is also great.
I know that haptics of the Cayin amps are great. (Feels amazing to press that power button)


Unfortunately I have no space at my listening Station anymore (or should I say luckily, from my wallets perspective?)


----------



## Yassa

Andykong said:


> We are still in our National Anniversary Golden week, will resume operation tomorrow.
> 
> I don't have a lot of information before the holiday break.  Received a casual photo on the final prototype:   new color with 4.4mm phone out.  The design is 90% finalised, but I don't have a firm schedule, still waiting for green light.  The bottleneck is supply chain and logistic, components prices goes up like hell, and delays become a habit, that's why we still can't finalise the price and date.  My guess is, November is hopeful, December is very likely.


Nice. but 4.4mm focused on IEMs?, which means its that quiet


----------



## ThanatosVI (Oct 7, 2021)

Yassa said:


> Nice. but 4.4mm focused on IEMs?, which means its that quiet


4.4mm is more and more common for flagship overears.
Many full size amps offer these now.

The upside compared to 4 pin XLR is, thst it also fits for DAPs with the same cable.

From a technical/measurement point of view they are equal to 4 pin XLR (actually I read manufacturer reports both ways, some prefer XLR some the 4.4mm)

T+A for instance ships with 4.4mm and 6.3mm by defsult and the 4-pin XLR is the special request


----------



## Andykong

ThanatosVI said:


> Finally in black.
> Even a new Ha-6A.
> 
> Any mk2 changes on that one or just another color?
> ...



One of the biggest complain was the 24 steps volume control, we hear you, please stay tune for the official announcement.



Yassa said:


> Nice. but 4.4mm focused on IEMs?, which means its that quiet



The 4.4mm phone output is the most frequently requested feature in our desktop headphone amplifiers, and  4.4mm headphone cables are widely used in full size headphones already.  If you buy a pair of Sennheiser HD820, you'll receive a 4.4mm headphone cables in the package.  If you order your headphone from DCA, ZMF or Kennerton, you can request 4.4mm terminated headphone cables as part of your standard package.  Other headphone companies such as Meze Audio offers 4.4mm balanced headphone cables as upgrade options.   Last but not least, almost all aftermarket cables offers 4.4mm options.


----------



## rsbrsvp

Does the detail retrieval and bass slam of this amp. compare to a good solid state amp. or is that just not possible?


----------



## ThanatosVI

rsbrsvp said:


> Does the detail retrieval and bass slam of this amp. compare to a good solid state amp. or is that just not possible?


Unfortunately I can't speak for this amp in particular, since I never had the pleasure to audition it. Others please chime in.

However my own tube amp the Octave V16 most definitely rivals even the best solid state amps in detail and bass impact, as do certain other tube amps. It is definitely possible!

There are warmer tube amps for sure,  but especially in the flagship Region they are often very neutral with amazing detail, while still offering the sought after tube sweetness.
Exact tube model used also has great impact on the degree of warmth and detail.


----------



## Benny-x

Benny-x said:


> Could give me/us some advice, what's the best way to run the HA-300 if you're using it with a preamp and if all of the volume control will be done upstream via the preamp or if someone digitally reduces the volume in their system before the DAC?
> 
> Is it just simply turn the volume all the way up and then the pot is "bypassed"? I get that that's a simplistic way to say it and you've got to be careful about sending too high a signal into the amp that way, but let's just say that we're being careful and that whatever the amp is passing to the connected headphones/speakers isn't going to hurt them or our ears.


@Andykong 

Sorry, you might have missed my question, Andy, but I was hoping you could share the "factory recommended setting" about this^


----------



## Andykong (Oct 9, 2021)

Benny-x said:


> Thanks for the reply, Andy. I really appreciate how hands on you are here with everyone's different comments here.
> 
> If you could give me/us some advice, what's the best way to run the HA-300 if you're using it with a preamp and if all of the volume control will be done upstream via the preamp or if someone digitally reduces the volume in their system before the DAC?
> 
> Is it just simply turn the volume all the way up and then the pot is "bypassed"? I get that that's a simplistic way to say it and you've got to be careful about sending too high a signal into the amp that way, but let's just say that we're being careful and that whatever the amp is passing to the connected headphones/speakers isn't going to hurt them or our ears.





Benny-x said:


> @Andykong
> 
> Sorry, you might have missed my question, Andy, but I was hoping you could share the "factory recommended setting" about this^



You can't bypass the volume or any circuit in HA-300 by turning the volume all the way up.  There is no by-pass feature in HA-300.  If you must include a pre-amp in a HA-300 based setup, you have no choice but to live with double amping.  For this reason,  there is NO factory recommended setting. 

There is no setting or procedure that will always work fine, we just have to find out the best compromise by audition, experience and trial and error.  Some of the pre-amp will only deliver maximum 4Vrms or 8Vrms from their line out, but I have also run into some preamp that deliver over 20Vrms.  Take THIS preamp as example:
_"The LA4's balanced output doesn't clip (ie, when the THD+N reaches 1%) until a very high 24V. Reducing the load to a punishing 600 ohms reduced the maximum output level to 15V (fig.4), which is still much higher than will be needed to drive a power amplifier into clipping"_

In addition, the output of your HA-300 varied a lot when you change between L, M and H impedance setting.  Take a look at the following table:





The rated output power of HA-300 are 7.59V at Low impedance, 18.17V at Mid impedance, 39.42V at High impedance.  So when you switch from Low impedance to High impedance, the maximum output power of the amplifier will increased by over 500%.

Without knowing the specification of your preamp, line out level of your source, and impedance of your headphones, I simply can't offer any suggestion to make sure "whatever the amp is passing to the connected  headphones/speakers isn't going to hurt them or our ears".

There is a safe method, but won't necessarily the good sounding method.

Connect your DAC to HA-300 directly without preamp, test your headphones under different impedance setting, record the volume setting of each headphone, and select the LOWEST setting as the "safe volume setting" on HA-300
Connect your DAC to preamp, and preamp output to HA-300, set HA-300 at "safe volume setting" and adjust the volume of the preamp to achieve the required output level.
This is safe,  and it will work fine if your headphones are not vastly different in power requirement.  Naturally if you have a headphone that sounds good at 8 o'clock volume position and then you have another headphone that sound good at 3 o'clock position, your more demanding headphone probably will sound very dull even when your pre-amp can offer enough output to compensate the low volume setting at HA-300.  But you probably understand why it is impossible to recommend a "factory recommended setting" as requested.


----------



## No Disc

Looks like they will be showing the MK2 in Shenzhen expo this weekend.


----------



## ThanatosVI

No Disc said:


> Looks like they will be showing the MK2 in Shenzhen expo this weekend.


It is a beauty in black.
Curious what improvements it has over the mk1


----------



## rmsanger

yep hopefully Cayin will give a product release sheet at some point.


----------



## Benny-x

ThanatosVI said:


> It is a beauty in black.
> Curious what improvements it has over the mk1


The only things I've been able to gleen so far are the 4.4mm balanced connection and likely a volume pot with many more steps, according to what Andy said over the past few pages. 

For sure there will be more than that, but I can't really figure anything else out even with those nice, new pictures. 

Looking forward to the event, though. I looked around online in China and couldn't find any threads yet about the MK2. That's definitely going to change after this weekend.


----------



## llamaluv

What I'm most interested to find out is if it will use the same coupling caps, or something different. 

The black finish looks wicked.


----------



## rmsanger

Benny-x said:


> The only things I've been able to gleen so far are the 4.4mm balanced connection and likely a volume pot with many more steps, according to what Andy said over the past few pages.
> 
> For sure there will be more than that, but I can't really figure anything else out even with those nice, new pictures.
> 
> Looking forward to the event, though. I looked around online in China and couldn't find any threads yet about the MK2. That's definitely going to change after this weekend.


Any details you get and help with translation to English would be greatly appreciated!

im hoping the power output is improved just a touch to Improve macros with sus /1266 and hoping the speaker output gets a bump as well.


----------



## Yggy

Yes, more power would be good for Susvara headphones. I listen at 12:00 on the low impedance setting and have no problems with volume but maybe more power would scale up the performance of hard-to-drive headphones like Susvara to the level reviewers describe with the Riviera AIC-10 and Bakoon Amp-13R. 

I don’t have a problem with the volume pot increments. I think I read that there is no benefit driving Susvara headphones from the HA300 speak taps? Has anybody tried that? 

My Denafrips Terminator 2 arrived yesterday. In my rush to switch out my Yggy I reconnected the HA300 umbilical cord plugs upside down with the socket notch down and only got 1 channel of RCA and XLR analog from the HA300 so I thought the Terminator 2 was faulty for a couple of hours. Doh!  

The Chinese really are a clever bunch. The Terminator 2 bested my Yggy A2 with Unison USB comprehensively, albeit at three times its price. Nothing beats the Yggy at its price point though. My DAC, headphone amp, and headphones are now all Chinese with the Brits taking care of the back-end with a Melco N1ZS/2A audio server and Isol 8 Minisub 2 power conditioner I’ve had for years.


----------



## Andykong

We have debut an engineering sample of HA-300 MK2 at the 16th Shenzhen Headphone Show.  The event will last from 15 to 17 October at The Pavilion Hotel.


The MK2 Engineering sample will be demoed with 2 x Genalex PX300B and 2 x Tung-SOL 6SN7, power rectification remain unchanged as 4x RCA 22DE4.
4.4mm and XLR4 Balanced and 6.35m Single-ended Phone Out
L, M, H Impedance Matching Output
Electronic Volume Control with ALPS Potentiometer

We shall finalised the design and setting of HA-300MK2 after this event and provide more measurements after this event.


----------



## vkenz

finally, they fixed the volume control.


----------



## Yggy

Would be interesting to compare the sound of the MK2 with MK1 tubes swapped in to the MK1.


----------



## jambaj0e

This is great! Can't wait to hear more about this!


----------



## ThanatosVI

Andykong said:


> We have debut an engineering sample of HA-300 MK2 at the 16th Shenzhen Headphone Show.  The event will last from 15 to 17 October at The Pavilion Hotel.
> 
> 
> The MK2 Engineering sample will be demoed with 2 x Genalex PX300B and 2 x Tung-SOL 6SN7, power rectification remain unchanged as 4x RCA 22DE4.
> ...


In black I actually consider getting it in addition to my Octave. 

From my past experience with the Ha-6a I know that the haptics with the power Button feel really nice. It's weird how even these little details contribute to the experience. 

With the Speakertaps I can also connect my Mjölnir SRD-7 Energizer for usage with the Audeze CRBN. 

Since I am using a pre amp, the volume pot Was never a problem for me.
Unity gain/power amp Mode would have been nice though.

The only dreadfull thing are the 22DE4 tubes. No new production available and NOS is really hard to find in germany. 
I wish the Rectifiers would be changed to 274B.

Will there be a price change between Mk1 and Mk2?

Can't wait to see how it compares to the Feliks Audio 300B.


----------



## normie610

ThanatosVI said:


> The only dreadfull thing are the 22DE4 tubes. No new production available and NOS is really hard to find in germany.
> I wish the Rectifiers would be changed to 274B.


Is there no substitute for 22DE4?


----------



## ThanatosVI

normie610 said:


> Is there no substitute for 22DE4?


None that I know of.


----------



## normie610

ThanatosVI said:


> None that I know of.


That’s too bad since rectifiers can bring a noticeable change to sound.


----------



## Andykong

ThanatosVI said:


> In black I actually consider getting it in addition to my Octave.
> 
> From my past experience with the Ha-6a I know that the haptics with the power Button feel really nice. It's weird how even these little details contribute to the experience.
> 
> ...



What is the minimal input requirement of your SRD-7 Energizer?  The HA-300 only deliver 8W per channel from its speaker tap, it is relatively low for speaker output, not sure if it'll work well with your SRD-7 and CRBN.

The 22DE4 are available under RCA (stock tube), GE, Raytheon, and a coupe of smaller labels.  It's most unfortunately that they are not available in Germany.  Please be reminded that there is no need to get the tube in match pair (or matched quad), and the tubes are meant to be used for 5 to 10 years of normal operation, non-NOS or even less than premium condition 22DE4 will work fine.  These are relatively low-priced vacuum tubes (lots of choice below $10 per tube), so I guess the risk to source from other European countries are relatively low?

We are trying very hard to stay within the same budget, but there has been an increase in component prices of up to 40% as compared to last quarter (*HERE*), and selected components price even raised 100% since the outbreak, we are really struggling at this stage.  We can't work out the final number until all the components has arrived (2-4 weeks if the logistic delays are not too  outrageous).


----------



## ThanatosVI

Andykong said:


> What is the minimal input requirement of your SRD-7 Energizer?  The HA-300 only deliver 8W per channel from its speaker tap, it is relatively low for speaker output, not sure if it'll work well with your SRD-7 and CRBN.
> 
> The 22DE4 are available under RCA (stock tube), GE, Raytheon, and a coupe of smaller labels.  It's most unfortunately that they are not available in Germany.  Please be reminded that there is no need to get the tube in match pair (or matched quad), and the tubes are meant to be used for 5 to 10 years of normal operation, non-NOS or even less than premium condition 22DE4 will work fine.  These are relatively low-priced vacuum tubes (lots of choice below $10 per tube), so I guess the risk to source from other European countries are relatively low?
> 
> We are trying very hard to stay within the same budget, but there has been an increase in component prices of up to 40% as compared to last quarter (*HERE*), and selected components price even raised 100% since the outbreak, we are really struggling at this stage.  We can't work out the final number until all the components has arrived (2-4 weeks if the logistic delays are not too  outrageous).


The SRD-7 would work fine with like 3W, so 8W should be enough.
Even if not I can still use the pre out and connect my 100W speakeramp. 
It would be a bonus not a requirement. 

Looking forward to the final details and price.
Especially in germany where the Cayin distributor sometimes applies enormous markups.


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> Yes, more power would be good for Susvara headphones. I listen at 12:00 on the low impedance setting and have no problems with volume but maybe more power would scale up the performance of hard-to-drive headphones like Susvara to the level reviewers describe with the Riviera AIC-10 and Bakoon Amp-13R.
> 
> I don’t have a problem with the volume pot increments. I think I read that there is no benefit driving Susvara headphones from the HA300 speak taps? Has anybody tried that?
> 
> ...



I can confirm there is no benefit to drive Susvara from the HA300 speak taps.  The speaker output from HA-300 delivers 8Vrms, the Low impedance XLR4 headphone output delivers 7.59Vrms, which is very close to the speaker output already.  If you change to Mid impedance, the XL4 headphone output will deliver 18.17Vrms, which is more than double of the speaker taps output.  Since the Susvara is rated at 60ohm, you should try the Mid impedance, it might works better.  Pay special attention to the bass response, linear and articulate bass reproduction is the key factor to decide which is a better impedance setting to match with your headphone.  

I didn't know you can turn the umbilical cord plugs upside down and yet screwed into the connectors.  Anyway we have received some feedback on the very "bulky" power connectors between the Main Unit and the Power supply unit, so revise the connectors was one of the agenda during MK2 development.  I have no idea whether they have identified an alternative connector for that purpose, we'll have to wait and see about that. I can't travel to our Zhuhai head office or attend the Shenzhen headphone show because of the outbreak, so I am as curious as you all regarding the HA-300 MK2.

Yes, we have revised the output transformers, so the output power will be revised as well.  However we have to make sure the Focal Steller or LCD-MX4 or Denon 9200 users will also be very happy with the new HA-300. So we are working on the output power and volume control as one complete move.   12 o'clock on low impedance for Susvara is on the low side, I remember I turned the HA-300 to 2 o'clock (at least) at Low impedance when I test drive the Susvara.


----------



## Andykong

rmsanger said:


> yep hopefully Cayin will give a product release sheet at some point.



Yes, definitely.  Please be rest assured. 

Cayin always provide detail product explanation and specification.  You can take a look at our HA-300 product page *HERE *and expect the new MK2 amplifier will have similar if not better treatment in terms of being informative and transparency.


----------



## Andykong

rsbrsvp said:


> Does the detail retrieval and bass slam of this amp. compare to a good solid state amp. or is that just not possible?



Detail retrieval are excellent on modern tube amplifier, including the HA-300 or the new MK2.  

Bass slam will depends on the synergy.  The HA-300 + Utopia combo slam really well IMHO, but I must said bass slam is not the strongest suit of HA-300.   

Modern tube amplifier can be very powerful, especially when they are operated in push-pull configuration and in ultralinear mode.  Unfortunately, the HA-300 or HA-300MK2 is neither.  It is a Single-ended Direct-Heated Triode amplifier and we used the famous 300B dream tube as the power tube in this amplifier. The HA-300 can delivery a lot of dynamic and authoritative playback when called for, but the 300B is famous for its lush and euphonic midrange, rich harmonic and holographic soundstage.


----------



## llamaluv

Andykong said:


> Yes, we have revised the output transformers, so the output power will be revised as well. However we have to make sure the Focal Steller or LCD-MX4 or Denon 9200 users will also be very happy with the new HA-300. So we are working on the output power and volume control as one complete move.


I appreciate calling out specific headphones in this manner. It helps to show that the designers are not out of touch with their target audience.  

I can corroborate from personal experience that both the D9200 and the Stellia sounded really, really good out of the HA-300.


----------



## Yggy

Andykong said:


> I can confirm there is no benefit to drive Susvara from the HA300 speak taps.  The speaker output from HA-300 delivers 8Vrms, the Low impedance XLR4 headphone output delivers 7.59Vrms, which is very close to the speaker output already.  If you change to Mid impedance, the XL4 headphone output will deliver 18.17Vrms, which is more than double of the speaker taps output.  Since the Susvara is rated at 60ohm, you should try the Mid impedance, it might works better.  Pay special attention to the bass response, linear and articulate bass reproduction is the key factor to decide which is a better impedance setting to match with your headphone.





Andykong said:


> I didn't know you can turn the umbilical cord plugs upside down and yet screwed into the connectors.



The male / female connectors on the unbilical cord sockets have a diamond shape with 2 pins / holes at the top and bottom so you have to know the notch needs to be on the top. It’s clear in the manual, you can see the notch needs to be on top in



Andykong said:


> Anyway we have received some feedback on the very "bulky" power connectors between the Main Unit and the Power supply unit, so revise the connectors was one of the agenda during MK2 development.  I have no idea whether they have identified an alternative connector for that purpose, we'll have to wait and see about that.



The umbilical cord can be fiddly to attach and detach. I have the HA-300 at the top of a stack on my desk with the power unit and the main unit side-by-side and the force required to screw and unscrew the socket can make the units slide around. I find I have to screw it in a bit and then push the plug into the socket,  screw it in a bit more, the. wiggle the plug a bit further into the socket, it takes a while.




Andykong said:


> 12 o'clock on low impedance for Susvara is on the low side, I remember I turned the HA-300 to 2 o'clock (at least)



I try to protect my ears. I start at 12:00 and


----------



## Yggy

Andykong said:


> Since the Susvara is rated at 60ohm, you should try the Mid impedance, it might works better.


I don’t know what other HA-300 owners think but low impedance sounds better to my ears than medium or high even with Susvara headphones. It sounds cleaner.


----------



## rmsanger

Just curious if any headfiers are at the show this weekend and able to listen to the Mk2?   any initial takes on the build, looks, sound qualities?


----------



## Palyodgree

Andykong said:


> Yes, definitely.  Please be rest assured.
> 
> Cayin always provide detail product explanation and specification.  You can take a look at our HA-300 product page *HERE *and expect the new MK2 amplifier will have similar if not better treatment in terms of being informative and transparency.


I think I’m going to order the MA 300 Mk2 in black when it’s available, I have solid state now however a vacuum tube driven little system is more appealing to me . I came very close to purchasing a Woo Audio WA 33 JPS edition a couple weeks ago then decided against it partly over thinking about diminishing returns on this $9000.00 plus the $3000.00 select tube upgrade owners of the standard edition of the WA 33 seemily need to have to realize just how good this amplifier can be along with another reason that turned me off about the owner and developer of JPS .

Andy I’m looking forward to ordering the MA 300 MK2 ,…


----------



## ThanatosVI (Oct 18, 2021)

Palyodgree said:


> I think I’m going to order the MA 300 Mk2 in black when it’s available, I have solid state now however a vacuum tube driven little system is more appealing to me . I came very close to purchasing a Woo Audio WA 33 JPS edition a couple weeks ago then decided against it partly over thinking about diminishing returns on this $9000.00 plus the $3000.00 select tube upgrade owners of the standard edition of the WA 33 seemily need to have to realize just how good this amplifier can be along with another reason that turned me off about the owner and developer of JPS .
> 
> Andy I’m looking forward to ordering the MA 300 MK2 ,…


Keep us updated, whicv headphones will you be using with it?

Luckily I have no space for the Ha300 right now, that makes the decision easier.

Tonally I except it to be a little warmer and sweeter than the Woo Wa33.
However it's more affordable than even the base Version of the Woo


----------



## Palyodgree

ThanatosVI said:


> Keep us updated, whicv headphones will you be using with it?
> 
> Luckily I have no space for the Ha300 right now, that makes the decision easier.
> 
> ...


I like planer currently I use HifIman 1000SE and I like the Susvaras I once borrowed will see what 2022 has to offer in new models and updated versions of great performing headphones.
I do my listening from a lazy boy chair with my components in a solid maple stand with caster wheels and felt pads for easy mobility lots of space for something like the Cayin 300 .


----------



## jambaj0e

rmsanger said:


> Just curious if any headfiers are at the show this weekend and able to listen to the Mk2?   any initial takes on the build, looks, sound qualities?



Yeah, I wonder about that, too!


----------



## Benny-x

Palyodgree said:


> I think I’m going to order the MA 300 Mk2 in black when it’s available, I have solid state now however a vacuum tube driven little system is more appealing to me . I came very close to purchasing a Woo Audio WA 33 JPS edition a couple weeks ago then decided against it partly over thinking about diminishing returns on this $9000.00 plus the $3000.00 select tube upgrade owners of the standard edition of the WA 33 seemily need to have to realize just how good this amplifier can be along with another reason that turned me off about the owner and developer of JPS .
> 
> Andy I’m looking forward to ordering the MA 300 MK2 ,…


Alright, you have set the hook and I will bite. 

What is the other reason she thing you learned about the owner and developer of JPS?


----------



## Palyodgree

Benny-x said:


> Alright, you have set the hook and I will bite.
> 
> What is the other reason she thing you learned about the owner and developer of JPS?


Just a few weeks ago I strongly considered WA 33 JPS edition along with the Abyss 1266 TC as a packaged purchase , a friend forwarded a article by Headphonesty written by Trav Wilson, I never heard of this site nor Trav Wilson , the article titled The Abyss headphone controversy was published earlier this year and has recently been updated . Further to the article in the comment section you will find some not so pleasant purchase dealings with Joe the owner and developer of Abyss and JPS . Joe has not taken legal action against the publisher or the online site. Of course everyone is free to believe what they want to in the article and comment section, myself I got a whiff of some stink so here I am wanting to purchase Cayin amplifier and another brand of headphones.


----------



## MichalZZZZ

Hi,

Two questions:

1. Price of the MK2 version already known?
2. Cayin HA-300 has good synergy with ZMF Verite?


----------



## llamaluv

MichalZZZZ said:


> Cayin HA-300 has good synergy with ZMF Verite?


I'm hoping to be able to start forming opinions on this question starting in about 48 hours  Will update.


----------



## ThanatosVI

MichalZZZZ said:


> Hi,
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...


Price is not known yet


----------



## helljudgement

MichalZZZZ said:


> 2. Cayin HA-300 has good synergy with ZMF Verite?


Spend a bit of time with this combo a few years ago in a pretty noisy environment so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. I do think its a decent pairing just not my cup of tea. A bit too rich for my liking if you will. Does have great punch though as I recall so hoping to spend more time in future shows/meets.


----------



## llamaluv

helljudgement said:


> Spend a bit of time with this combo a few years ago in a pretty noisy environment so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. I do think its a decent pairing just not my cup of tea. A bit too rich for my liking if you will. Does have great punch though as I recall so hoping to spend more time in future shows/meets.


Interesting, could you elaborate on what you mean by rich? Too bloomey in the mids maybe? Or something else?


----------



## helljudgement

llamaluv said:


> Too bloomey in the mids


That's the gist of it. I also own a different 300b tube amp that is drier and less tube like than the cayin and that amp also have an underlying sense of richness or tube bloom if you will. That's just the nature of 300b tubes in general. It sounds great with the cayin but it seem a tad too rich for me when I tried it. All these are subjected to personal preference of course.


----------



## llamaluv

helljudgement said:


> That's the gist of it. I also own a different 300b tube amp that is drier and less tube like than the cayin and that amp also have an underlying sense of richness or tube bloom if you will. That's just the nature of 300b tubes in general. It sounds great with the cayin but it seem a tad too rich for me when I tried it. All these are subjected to personal preference of course.


Cool, thanks. 

Yea, I had that reaction with the Auteur with the HA300. It seemed to go away after a while, but of course that seems pretty unlikely, so I guess I just got used to it, lol.

What's interesting to me is that non-ZMF, lower impedance dynamic headphones I've used on the HA300 (all of which I've liked a lot) don't exhibit this kind of bloom hardly at all (Utopia, Stellia, Denon D9200).


----------



## helljudgement

llamaluv said:


> What's interesting to me is that non-ZMF, lower impedance dynamic headphones I've used on the HA300 (all of which I've liked a lot) don't exhibit this kind of bloom hardly at all


I'd imagine this sort of signature synergizes better with more neutral phones like the utopia. ZMF is by nature a bit wet sounding with rounded transients so having an amp that provides more bloom is too much for my liking. It works better with a more neutral or drier sounding tube amp.


----------



## llamaluv

helljudgement said:


> I'd imagine this sort of signature synergizes better with more neutral phones like the utopia. ZMF is by nature a bit wet sounding with rounded transients so having an amp that provides more bloom is too much for my liking. It works better with a more neutral or drier sounding tube amp.


This reasoning makes sense to me. 

Relatedly, the Bakoon AMP-R13 (even though solid-state) is remarkably creamy-sounding, and the Auteur bringing its own "wetness" sounded really good with it. This amp also, IMO, revealed the limits to which that headphone could scale...


----------



## Yggy

Has anybody listened to both the Empyrean Meze Elite and Hifiman Susvara on the HA-300 or both the Hifiman Susvara and HE1000SE?

I read a couple of reviews saying the HE1000SE was on the same level or better than the Susvara with the HA-300 because the easier driving closes or more than closes the performance gap between the two. Reviews of the Meze Empyrean Elite vs Susvara suggest there isn’t much between them. 

I haven’t got to the stage of owning two of anything in my headphones setup but was interested that reviewers thought voices on the Elite were smoother and fuller than on Susvaras because I listen to a lot of female pop. Billie Eilish’s Happier Than Ever and When We Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? in 24 bit sound amazing on my Susvaras through the HA-300. 

Has anybody with Susvaras upgraded from the HA-300 to the Bakoon 13R/23R, Riviera AIC10, Wells Audio Dragon / Head Trip 2 or have or had both to be able to compare or comment on? I’m curious if more driving power would be worth the loss of sweetness with the Susvara and HA-300 combination. I’ve kinda gone all in with the HA-300 by upgrading all the tubes but still wonder about the sonic trade-offs / possible improved performance of more powerful driving to extract the last drop of performance from Susvaras.


----------



## llamaluv (Oct 27, 2021)

Yggy said:


> Has anybody with Susvaras upgraded from the HA-300 to the Bakoon 13R/23R, Riviera AIC10, Wells Audio Dragon / Head Trip 2 or have or had both to be able to compare or comment on? I’m curious if more driving power would be worth the loss of sweetness with the Susvara and HA-300 combination. I’ve kinda gone all in with the HA-300 by upgrading all the tubes but still wonder about the sonic trade-offs / possible improved performance of more powerful driving to extract the last drop of performance from Susvaras.



The *Bakoon AMP-R13 *and *HA-300 *are my two main amps these days, and the Susvara my preferred headphone. I can only speak to my own personal experience with my own signal chain, but I found that if and in what ways the two amps differ while driving the Susvara depended a lot on the DAC in question:

With the *DAVE*, the HA300 brought out more meat on the bones and a little more depth in that 300B-like way which I've always found very "likeable and friendly", while the R13 was a little bit compressed actually, but easily more resolving. And also tipped a shade too far into the upper-mids, while the HA300 was I would say just a shade too warm for my liking.

With the *Bartok*, the HA300 now sounds much more high-resolution and also more spacious than it did with my previous DAVE setup to the point where there's very little between it and the R13. Meanwhile, the R13 sounds smoother and creamier than before, more so than the HA300. And depth now goes to the R13 over the HA300. The HA300 is still one shade warmer than the R13 but less so than with the DAVE. But overall, my changing of DACs has brought the sounds of each amp closer to each other, and with a strong net gain for both, IMO. To the point that a small group of pals who recently listened to both these amps with the Bartok and Susvara were a little struck at how similar they sounded on the whole, given the common expectations of what you'd think would be the case.

These observations are pretty signal-chain specific, but my own takeaway is that a lot depends on the DAC in terms of any resulting synergy of the Susvara with a given amp, regardless of amp topology and power ratings.


----------



## Sampajanna

for all the issues of the mk1, Cayin should offer some kind of solid trade in upgrade option, methinks.


----------



## Benny-x

What issues does the Mk1 have en masse? I've owned mine for 8 months, no issues so far. And I haven't seen any scandals running about it and it is a widely enough owned amp. 

After my experience with the HiFiMAN HEKv1->HEKv2, I'm less "automatically convinced" that v2s at this level are better vs. just different. I still prefer the sound of the HEKv1s over the v2, and I've yet to hear the HEKse, but I've got to wonder whether they're "better" to my ears. 

So for the HA-300 Mk2, I wouldn't be executing any trade-up offer right off the bat, even though I'm right here in mainland China and Cayin is very approachable here. I'll be waiting to get a listen at home. 



Interesting notes about about the impact of the different DACs. I haven't tried that yet, I might have to look into it down the road.


----------



## rmsanger

Bump any news or impressions from the mk2?


----------



## llamaluv (Nov 3, 2021)

I've had the *Verite* for a few days now. Can confirm that with the HA300, it is quite bloomey in the mids. Piano notes can sound exaggerated and un-grounded in the piano's 4th and 5th octaves. What I'm doing for this at the moment is EQ-ing in a slight, downward scoop from 500-2000hz.

The up-side is that this bloom effect mitigates the peculiar dip on this headphone which occurs at the border between the upper-mids and lower-treble which many users have opinions about (and which was quite awful for me on my first pair of Verites a couple years ago).

The medium output impedance setting is my favorite, as with the midrange bloom also comes the tube-magical soundstage-expansion and all the rest. This effect is altogether more pronounced compared to the Auteur, which I had until recently. The soundstage of the Verite with the medium impedance setting can sound huge, and that's really cool.

One other caveat, however, is that its bass is a little flaccid on the medium impedance setting to me (even though I like the bass on the HA300 otherwise).

So there're positives and negatives. I don't know however how what I described above compares to what happens with the Verite on other tube amps...

The bloom effect is a little less pronounced on low-impedance, but then you lose out on the tube magic somewhat. High impedance is pretty fun, but probably brings forth too much, IMO.

_Edit: _Also worth reiterating something that's been mentioned in the past is that, as a 300-ohm headphone, the Verite plays very loud with very little volume input. On medium output impedance, with a 6-volt XLR input and XLR headphone output, and with the volume knob on its very lowest position, the volume of some songs can be way too loud for "casual" listening levels (eg, right now as I'm typing this, I have the digital pre-amp set to -15dB!). As a corollary, switching between something like the Susvara and the Verite therefore requires an extra amount of caution, similar to when you're messing around with headphones and speaker amps. Presumably this behavior gets reworked with the mk2...


----------



## helljudgement

llamaluv said:


> I've had the Verite for a few days now. Can confirm that with the HA300, it is quite bloomey in the mids. Piano notes can sound exaggerated and un-grounded in the piano's 4th and 5th octaves. What I'm doing for this at the moment is EQ-ing in a slight, downward scoop from 500-2000hz.


Thanks for sharing. I've had very similar experience with regards to the mids-lower mids presentation. Partially the reason why I decided not to go for it specifically for zmf headphones.



llamaluv said:


> I don't know how what I described above compares to what happens with the Verite on other tube amps...
> The bloom effect is a little less pronounced on low-impedance, but then you lose out on the tube magic somewhat. High impedance is pretty fun, but probably brings forth too much, IMO.


Verite works great with tube amps haven't dislike any paring yet but some synergizes better than others. Personally I pair it DNA and the EC amps. Both these amps to me are a better match for verite as they do not overly emphasize the mids-lower mids and come across as more natural without excessive bloom so to speak. Soundstage is amazing on all 3 amps but EC in particular has the deepest soundstage out of all amps I've owned and tested by a noticeable margin. Hoping to hear it with A&S 300b amp to see how it stacks against the ha300 and EC amps but it's about the price of both those amps combined so a bit beyond my means to blind buy.


----------



## rmsanger

Well it’s November and no Mk2 updates so I have to assume its a 2022 product at this point.  I held out for it but likely need to go in a different direction.  perhaps go wa33 or tube hybrid (pathos inpol ear or wells dragon lvl2).

I always take 10days off around Christmas so get lots of time to listen then.  Was hoping The mk2 would be ready by then.


----------



## ThanatosVI

rmsanger said:


> Well it’s November and no Mk2 updates so I have to assume its a 2022 product at this point.  I held out for it but likely need to go in a different direction.  perhaps go wa33 or tube hybrid (pathos inpol ear or wells dragon lvl2).
> 
> I always take 10days off around Christmas so get lots of time to listen then.  Was hoping The mk2 would be ready by then.


Well might still be Dezember. 
If you're in for a 300B Tube amp, Feliks Audio will release one this year as well.


----------



## mfgillia

ThanatosVI said:


> Well might still be Dezember.
> If you're in for a 300B Tube amp, *Feliks Audio will release one this year as well*.


Allegedly this November 15th but expected to be around two times the price of Euphoria AE.


----------



## ThanatosVI

mfgillia said:


> Allegedly this November 15th but expected to be around two times the price of Euphoria AE.


Yeah from a price point it might be slightly above a Ha300 but still below a Wa33.

Looking forward to the Release, even though I don't need another amp


----------



## Andykong

We are one component short from starting mass production: the ALPS potentiometer, we just receive an unbelievable schedule from our supplier after several delays.  If we fall back to the old volume control, we can start the production immediately, but we spend a lot of time to design the new volume control, so we are looking for different options now.


----------



## rmsanger

Andykong said:


> We are one component short from starting mass production: the ALPS potentiometer, we just receive an unbelievable schedule from our supplier after several delays.  If we fall back to the old volume control, we can start the production immediately, but we spend a lot of time to design the new volume control, so we are looking for different options now.


Thanks Andy appreciate the update!


----------



## Palyodgree

I just got me a HA 300 , I have a long drive to pick it up and of course I’m really looking forward to it , haven’t used tube based component for at least 15 years .
As for the revised HA 300 apparently it will be available June 2022 according to John Cayins international marketing director.


----------



## rmsanger

Did you get The one that was listed in Portland ?  If so I was eying it for some time just didn’t want to make the drive.


----------



## Palyodgree

rmsanger said:


> Did you get The one that was listed in Portland ?  If so I was eying it for some time just didn’t want to make the drive.


No I’m in Canada,.I noticed you have a Hagel 160 and the LRS Maggies , my brother in law uses them , man they are a such a great pairing , just fantastic playback.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Palyodgree said:


> I just got me a HA 300 , I have a long drive to pick it up and of course I’m really looking forward to it , haven’t used tube based component for at least 15 years .
> As for the revised HA 300 apparently it will be available June 2022 according to John Cayins international marketing director.


Another 6 months delay. The industry really isn't al too well at the Moment.
Most releases suffer serious delays


----------



## Palyodgree

ThanatosVI said:


> Another 6 months delay. The industry really isn't al too well at the Moment.
> Most releases suffer serious delays


Yeah most everything is delayed, my heart was set on a black 300 mk2 , I’ll enjoy this one , will see what the Mk2 bringth compared to the original 300.


----------



## rmsanger

ThanatosVI said:


> Another 6 months delay. The industry really isn't al too well at the Moment.
> Most releases suffer serious delays



Ouch that will hurt the prospects of me buying one...   I know a used tube amp or the Feliks envy is going to tickle me to purchase sooner than that.


----------



## Palyodgree

ThanatosVI said:


> Another 6 months delay. The industry really isn't al too well at the Moment.
> Most releases suffer serious delays


ThanatosVI I also was waiting for the launch of the Rockna Wavelight server after months of delays though I received a reply from Nicolae . He said the Wavelight will finally be available end of 1st quarter 2022. 
A local Rockna dealer has a Rockna Net 2021 model coming in on a trade I put a down payment on and it’s black to match the rest of my stuff except my Ha 300.

Of course once Cayin make available the HA 300 MK 2 apparently in June 2022 offering it in that so sexy black I have no choice but to get one .


----------



## ThanatosVI (Dec 16, 2021)

Palyodgree said:


> ThanatosVI I also was waiting for the launch of the Rockna Wavelight server after months of delays though I received a reply from Nicolae . He said the Wavelight will finally be available end of 1st quarter 2022.
> A local Rockna dealer has a Rockna Net 2021 model coming in on a trade I put a down payment on and it’s black to match the rest of my stuff except my Ha 300.
> 
> Of course once Cayin make available the HA 300 MK 2 apparently in June 2022 offering it in that so sexy black I have no choice but to get one .


Yeah I pre ordered the Wavelight Server 13 months ago.
However the Story for the Wavelight is, that it required a complete redesign due to the AKM Incident.

The Wavelight Server we will receive early next year is a different Design than the one planned last year.
The new design Was sheduled for completion two weeks ago and the Servers should now enter production for the Release.

After the Wavelight Server, Nicolae will work on the Hybrid Mode for the Wavelight DAC (in addition to the R2R Mode it has now)

I'm looking forward to the Black Cayin releases, even though I probably won't buy any of those.

The Feliks Envy will release soon (it's actually also delayed and should have been released last month). Which is Aesthetically very pleasing.

And there are also two other tube amplifiers on the horizon till Q2 2022.

Can't own them all...


----------



## jambaj0e

So recently, I was hearing random pitchy hums on my Ha-300, and I suspect it was because my Western Electric 300b started to leak gas. It suppose to glow blue in darkness in the top bubble, not through the entire globe. Both of the we300b's are glowing blue through the whole tube. 

I have since gotten a replacement from Western Electric, but now I have a faint electrical hum, more from the right channel. Strangely, the left 300b (both tubes are 1 week old at this point) is now exhibiting the blue glow thru the whole globe again. 

What's going on here? Is something wrong with my ha-300 again?


----------



## normie610

jambaj0e said:


> So recently, I was hearing random pitchy hums on my Ha-300, and I suspect it was because my Western Electric 300b started to leak gas. It suppose to glow blue in darkness in the top bubble, not through the entire globe. Both of the we300b's are glowing blue through the whole tube.
> 
> I have since gotten a replacement from Western Electric, but now I have a faint electrical hum, more from the right channel. Strangely, the left 300b (both tubes are 1 week old at this point) is now exhibiting the blue glow thru the whole globe again.
> 
> What's going on here? Is something wrong with my ha-300 again?


Blue glow from WE‘s 300B tubes are normal. If there’s a leak, the blue color will be more towards “real” blue rather than purple-blue.


----------



## jambaj0e

normie610 said:


> Blue glow from WE‘s 300B tubes are normal. If there’s a leak, the blue color will be more towards “real” blue rather than purple-blue.



Yes, but per customer support, the gas shouldn't go pass the top portion. These are the tubes they replaced. It's not that bright in real life, it's just my phone is crazy good in low light, but you can see the gas inside the whole tube. When they saw the photo, they sent me the new ones in the previous photo.


----------



## jambaj0e

This is how it looked first night I installed the replacement tubes. Notice the glow is only at the top.


----------



## ThanatosVI

I'm really sorry for your tube issues, but appreciate these pictures.

Even if they shouldn't glow like that,  it looks magnificent!


----------



## Yggy




----------



## Yggy

The glow on my WE300b’s on my HA-300


----------



## normie610

jambaj0e said:


> This is how it looked first night I installed the replacement tubes. Notice the glow is only at the top.


I had mine replaced as well but only one piece since the other one is fine. The one that didn’t get replaced has blue glow perhaps 50% of the tube’s body, but it sounds fine. Perhaps try to wait and see past 200 hours of use (I know it’s a lot and takes a long time), the noise/hum might go away.


----------



## jambaj0e

Yeah, so far, the sound is excellent, even though the bass hasn't fully formed unlike the previous tube (I had about 400-500 hours on them) that sounded amazing until recently when they started to sound deflated and I asked for the replacement. 

@normie610 what 6sn7 tubes are you running? I have the Sylvania 3-hole Bad boys that sounds great with the we300b.


----------



## Palyodgree (Dec 30, 2021)

I’m a novice having purchased my first headphones a year ago one thing I will say my family likes me better now they do not have to join in with listening.

It was a good move to purchase the HA 300 I love how my HiFiman 1000 SE sound more so then over the past year that I’ve owned them .
My HA 300 has the current factory suppled tubes the textural presence with great recorded vocals I’m hearing for the first time using the 1000SE is a beautiful thing to experience.

I don’t have immediate plans on rolling tubes however when I do I’ll try out the Linlai Global E-6sn7s ,,.if theres room for them that is.

Finally once again I’d like to say that I am Very pleased with the HA 300 , by far it’s one of the best audio purchases for me of 2021.


----------



## jambaj0e

Dangit, now the left channel is making that "microphone rustling" sound, which is actually showing up on the EV meter. I turned it off, waited for several minutes, and turned it on, and it did it again. 

I waited for a while again, swapped the WE300b tubes, and it seems to have stopped doing that for now. I am concerned because I feel that I have had different problems with this amp... I think if I have something else, I'll have to take it in to get looked at, and worse comes to worse, figure out a new amp, maybe a solid state amp. Problem is what amp has the kind of tube sound that's also a speaker amp?


----------



## Yggy

Have you tried swapping out your NOS Sylvania 6SN7 tubes back to stock or very gently tapping them or reseating them? I find my NOS Sylvania tubes can be extremely microphonous and a very gentle touch or tap with the pad of my finger or taking them out and putting them back in, or switching them round, can clear static / quiet rustling. Also, mine did that when they new but haven’t done it for a while no it might lessen with burn-in.


----------



## jambaj0e

Yggy said:


> Have you tried swapping out your NOS Sylvania 6SN7 tubes back to stock or very gently tapping them or reseating them? I find my NOS Sylvania tubes can be extremely microphonous and a very gentle touch or tap with the pad of my finger or taking them out and putting them back in, or switching them round, can clear static / quiet rustling. Also, mine did that when they new but haven’t done it for a while no it might lessen with burn-in.


I'll try that on my next round. Funny thing, though, it has been dead quiet up until I swapped to the new we300bs. So may be it's a hum that will go away as I put more hours on the WE300b tubes. Also, after I swapped the WE300b around, the rustling sound is gone. Let's hope it'll be gone for good, and it was just a seating issue.


----------



## normie610

jambaj0e said:


> what 6sn7 tubes are you running? I have the Sylvania 3-hole Bad boys that sounds great with the we300b


Unfortunately I don’t own HA-300. Instead, I have a Manley 300B preamp which uses 6SL7 as preamp tubes (not 6SN7). I’m running Tung Sol 6SU7GTY (military spec of 6SL7) which sounds sublime alternating with a pair of RCA 5691 red base (for 6SN7 it’s RCA 5692) and a pair of Tung Sol VT-229.


----------



## Yggy

I bought a pair of HE-6SE v2 headphones in the Hifiman sale for USD 609. They have excellent clarity on the high impedance setting of the HA-300. They are more neutral than my Susvaras. 

I find sound clarity on the Susvaras gets slightly worse when you switch impedence to medium and high, even though they are being better driven. HE-6SE v2 doesn’t have the dimensionality and massive sound stage of the Susvaras but they sound clearer with movies and TV. 

I’m trying to get a pair of original HE-6’s. Has anybody compared Diana Phi’s to Susvaras on the HA-300? Based on what I’ve read about their sound signature, I think they’d be a good match.


----------



## llamaluv (Jan 1, 2022)

In case anyone's interested, I'm finding the *Meze Elite* (which I started listening to on my system earlier today) to synergize really well with the HA-300.

The Elite's appeal lies in its overall presentation and "musicality", and the HA-300 plays to those strengths. Positive changes to soundstage depth and instrument placement are immediately apparent. This is in relation to the Bakoon R13 solid state amp, with which I'm liking the Elite just fine with so far as well.

Also, the 300B's warmth and extra body combines well with the Elite's relative neutrality -- compared to its warmer and slightly less detailed predecessor, the Empyrean.

Easily and obviously one of the best planar pairings for the HA-300 I've heard. And way ahead of the LCD5 in terms of synergy, by the by. IMO.

Over a quick listen, my friend, who's also on here, had similarly favorable impressions.


----------



## Yggy

Palyodgree said:


> It was a good move to purchase the HA 300 I love how my HiFiman 1000 SE sound more so then over the past year that I’ve owned them. My HA 300 has the current factory suppled tubes the textural presence with great recorded vocals I’m hearing for the first time using the 1000SE is a beautiful thing to experience.


I’ve just ordered a used pair of HE1000SE for my HA-300. The HE1000v1 paired with the HA-300 got an excellent review from Project86 on Head-Fi. He/she said they were as good or better than Susvaras because they are easier to drive. 

People say the SE takes the best bits of the v1 and v2 and sprinkles in some Susvara. I have Susvaras and know how good they sound with the HA-300 so I can’t wait to hear the HE1000SE. 

I figured it was going to be cheaper to add an easier-to-drive used headphone to get more out of my HA-300 than to add a power or integrated amp with a pre amp to extract the last drop of performance from my Susvaras. Ultimately, whatever replaces the Susvaras will likely be easier to drive but I know I’ll still love the HA-300 sound. 

Tube rolling is definitely the way to go with the HA-300. You can completely transform it. The difference is not subtle.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Yggy said:


> I’ve just ordered a used pair of HE1000SE for my HA-300. The HE1000v1 paired with the HA-300 got an excellent review from Project86 on Head-Fi. He/she said they were as good or better than Susvaras because they are easier to drive.
> 
> People say the SE takes the best bits of the v1 and v2 and sprinkles in some Susvara. I have Susvaras and know how good they sound with the HA-300 so I can’t wait to hear the HE1000SE.
> 
> ...


The Ha300 has more than enough juice into the Susvara.
If you prefer another amp it's because of its inherent sound and not because the Ha300 has insufficient power.


----------



## Yggy

ThanatosVI said:


> The Ha300 has more than enough juice into the Susvara.
> If you prefer another amp it's because of its inherent sound and not because the Ha300 has insufficient power.


The Susvara would wipe the floor with the HE1000v1 if both were fully driven but Project86 said he/she preferred the HE1000v1 to the Susvara with the Cayin HA-300 because it was easier to drive. 

The Susvara and HA-300 are both brilliant products and so the under-powering isn’t as noticeable as it would be with a lesser headphone amp because of the incredible sweetness of tone and synergy between the 300b tubes and Susvaras. 

Based on what I’ve read the HA-300 doesn’t drive the Susvara to the level of power amps like the Keces S300 and Benchmark AHB2, integrated amps like the Accuphase E-380, amp and pre amp combinations like Pass Labs XA25 and XP12 and solid state headphone amps like the Ferrum Oor and Flux Volot. 

Power isn’t everything though. Some reviewers say the Susvara driven by power amps like the AHB2 can be tonally thin and too analytical. I think it depends on what aspect of a sound signature you value the most. If it’s sweetness of tone and elegant refinement, you won’t beat the HA-300 for the money but if it’s dynamics, transient response, resolution, or bass slam, you probably can. The Niimbus US5 is probably better than the HA-300 on all of those with the Susvara at a similar cost.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Yggy said:


> The Susvara would wipe the floor with the HE1000v1 if both were fully driven but Project86 said he/she preferred the HE1000v1 to the Susvara with the Cayin HA-300 because it was easier to drive.
> 
> The Susvara and HA-300 are both brilliant products and so the under-powering isn’t as noticeable as it would be with a lesser headphone amp because of the incredible sweetness of tone and synergy between the 300b tubes and Susvaras.
> 
> ...


As I said, if someone prefers a different amp that is totally fine, but it's due to the inherent sound of that amp and not the power.

The Ha300 Puts up to 5w into the Susvara.
That's a lot more than the XA25 manages to put into the Susvara impedance and yet even the XA25 drives the Susvara to full potential


----------



## Palyodgree

Yggy said:


> I’ve just ordered a used pair of HE1000SE for my HA-300. The HE1000v1 paired with the HA-300 got an excellent review from Project86 on Head-Fi. He/she said they were as good or better than Susvaras because they are easier to drive.
> 
> People say the SE takes the best bits of the v1 and v2 and sprinkles in some Susvara. I have Susvaras and know how good they sound with the HA-300 so I can’t wait to hear the HE1000SE.
> 
> ...


I find the flaws of the 1000SE easy to take the headphone seemed to have taken on a new life being driven by the HA 300 . Member Dontato mentioned how much he enjoyed his 1000SE with his HA 300 more so then driving his Susvaras . Dontatos Pass Lab and Viva amplifiers driving the Susvaras were better suited according to him .


----------



## UntilThen

Indeed He1000se as well as He6se out of a 300b amp is heavenly. No surprise there.


----------



## Andykong (May 7, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> As I said, if someone prefers a different amp that is totally fine, but it's due to the inherent sound of that amp and not the power.
> 
> The Ha300 Puts up to 5w into the Susvara.
> That's a lot more than the XA25 manages to put into the Susvara impedance and yet even the XA25 drives the Susvara to full potential



I received similar questions frequently: can your amplifier drive this or that headphone to its full potential?

How should I respond to that?

Apparently, everyone has a different definition of full potential.  Someone looks at ample power (volume position?) at the loudest level with certain tracks; someone expects a strong synergy match to bring out the best sound of the headphone (according to their preference); someone says a speaker power amplifier is the way to go, and then someone says I won't use speaker amplifier, so let's take that option out and find out the full potential without resolving to speaker amplifier; someone says this amplifier can drive the headphone to full potential in 2020, but we are in 2022 now, there are better options and full potential has been extended already,    .....

At the end of the day, I end up saying logically, it can't drive your headphone to full potential.

I don't mean to disagree with you, but if you were in my position and discussed this question with different products in various shows and events, you'll understand how I feel about this question.


----------



## Yggy

Am I right in thinking that on medium input and balanced my HA-300 is putting 2.2w into my Susvaras compared to 11.3w from the Hifiman EF1000 which was developed to extract the maximum performance from the Susvara. Should I be doubling the 2.2w because that’s what’s going into each cup? 

If a reviewer prefers the HE1000v1 to the Susvara out of the HA-300 and we know that the Susvara is a better headphone than the HE1000v1, the HA-300 can’t be driving the Susvara optimally? 

This isn’t a dig at the HA-300. I love the tone of the HA-300 so much I’ve ordered a pair of HE1000SE rather than a more powerful amp for the Susvaras. I figure there is no point duplicating my amping just because the Susvara is such a devil to drive. The Susvara 2 will probably be easier to drive so no point buying another amp for one headphone that’s due an update. 

The Susvara and HA-300 sound sublime but only with certain music types. Acoustic, pop, female vocals, and electronic is brilliant. I love listening to Random Access Memories by Daft Punk, Blackstar by David Bowie, or You Want it Darker by Leonard Cohen, it’s not the music I usually listen to but it sounds so good on the Susvaras and HA-300. Rock isn’t so good. That could be just the tuning of the Susvaras but I’m pretty sure it would improve if the Susvara was fed more power. It would never be as good as the Abyss 1266 but it would be better. I’d love to be able to buy an upgraded power supply for the HA-300.


----------



## Andykong (Jan 5, 2022)

Yggy said:


> Am I right in thinking that on medium input and balanced my HA-300 is putting 2.2w into my Susvaras compared to 11.3w from the Hifiman EF1000 which was developed to extract the maximum performance from the Susvara. Should I be doubling the 2.2w because that’s what’s going into each cup?
> 
> If a reviewer prefers the HE1000v1 to the Susvara out of the HA-300 and we know that the Susvara is a better headphone than the HE1000v1, the HA-300 can’t be driving the Susvara optimally?
> 
> ...



I am not saying HA-300 is the prefect amplifier for Susvara, or HA-300 can driver Susvara to full potential.  

However I don't think we can work out the concept of "full potential" based on numbers like this.  11.3w Solid State is one implemtation, 2.2W Transformer coupled vacume tube is another implementation.  The two implementations are so different that we can hardly compare them directly based on rated output. 

For instance, you can't compare pure Class A  vs Class AB or Class D in solid state based on rated ouptut.  In that case, the Class D will always become the winner, but experienced audiophiles tend to prefer pure class A amplifier which has the lowest output among the three implementations.

Likewise, you can't compare the rated output of OTL vs transformer coupled vacuum tube amplifiuer directly.


----------



## Zielarz

jambaj0e said:


> Dangit, now the left channel is making that "microphone rustling" sound, which is actually showing up on the EV meter. I turned it off, waited for several minutes, and turned it on, and it did it again.


If I understand you correctly I had something similar few months ago when I changed my stock 6SN7 tubes for Psvane CV181. I started to hear hum and crackling. I swapped tubes few times and the problem was sometimes gone. I wasn't quite sure if it's the amp or tubes. Until I made a test - when I heard this noise I touched (through the cloth) 300b tubes and the noise was gone. 300b tubes mount is quite loose, they move quite a lot. Probably when I inserted the new Psvane I slightly moved the 300b tubes. After that everything is fine.


----------



## Yggy

I bought a pair of used Focal Utopias on eBay bundled with a Nordost Heimdall 2 cable. Really lovely sound on the HA-300. Not quite the ethereal plucked brilliance of the Susvaras but superb performance for dynamic drivers. 

The Utopias go toe-to-toe with the Susvaras for sweetness of tone and comfort. They sound more natural, mellow, and intimate. I love how they look and feel. Detail and resolution doesn’t match the Susvaras but they are more forgiving of average recordings and less picky about music genres.

The Nordost Heimdall 2 cable is XLR terminated but came with 6.35mm and 3.5mm adapters so I could compare the balanced and unbalance sound from the HA-300. I couldn’t detect any difference in sound quality or tone between them. XLR was very slightly louder.

I’ve been listening to the Utopias on low impedence at between 8:00 and 9:00 on the volume dial so almost too easy for the HA-300 to drive.


----------



## rmsanger

Any updates on the Mk2 ?   I last saw it was an Alps pot issue either on the design or supply chain constraints.    Has progress on that been made or likely delayed for another 6 months or so?


----------



## ThanatosVI

rmsanger said:


> Any updates on the Mk2 ?   I last saw it was an Alps pot issue either on the design or supply chain constraints.    Has progress on that been made or likely delayed for another 6 months or so?


The last Update was delay till june.
No further Update since


----------



## Yggy

Has anybody compared Focal Utopias on the Cayin HA-300 and Focal Arche using just the amp sections or with another similar level streamer/DAC with the HA-300? 

I’ve read that the Arche makes the Utopia sound thicker and warmer, a reviewer described it as putting meat on the bones of the Utopia. I’m guessing the HA-300 would be more 3D / holographic and airy though at double the price of the Arche. The HA-300 with upgraded tubes makes the amps I’ve compared it to sound flat and lifeless. 

I bought a used Naim Supernait 3 integrated amp so I can run my Susvaras from the speaker taps and compare them to the HA-300. I’m expecting better dynamics, more punch and slam, but a less sweet tone with the Naim. Waiting for a speaker tap to XLR 4 pin adapter to be split off my old headphone cable before I can compare.


----------



## Yggy

Have been listening to Hifiman HE1000SE headphones on the Cayin HA-300. Synergy is excellent. I haven’t listened to my Susvaras for a while because they’ve been replaced under warranty but the HE1000SE sounds cleaner, more neutral, and more detailed than Susvaras at the expense of being lighter and brighter sounding. 

I wouldn’t say HE1000SE are as good or better than Susvaras with the Cayin HA-300 as one reviewer suggested unless clarity, detail, and “etched-ness” are your thing above everything else but they aren’t far behind. I’m listening to them on high impedance at around 9:00. The gap between HE-6SE v2 and HE1000SE is bigger than the gap between HE1000SE and Susvaras but HE-6SE v2 are the best value of the three at the price Hifiman discount them to.  

Having listened to the HE1000SE on the HA-300, I’ve lost interest in buying original HE-6’s. I like the refined sound of the HE1000SE too much, I think HE-6’s might be too raw even with the calming affect of 300b tubes.


----------



## Yggy

Still enjoying my Utopias through the HA-300. Listening to Ye by Kanye West in high resolution. I like to set the impedance to high and listen at 7:00 or 2 clicks on the volume pot. The sound is thick, meaty, and delicious. 

When I switch from HE1000SE to Utopias, the dynamic drivers sound dated compared to Hifiman’s planar magnetic technology. Utopias sound like headphones I listened to 30-35 years ago but done much better. They’re perfect with Leonard Cohen’s intimate husky spoken vocals on You Want It Darker.

When I switch back to the HE1000SE, everything is more open, lighter, and more etched, the cups of the HE1000SE are bigger so your ears feel cooler, the HE1000SE, like Susvaras, are so comfortable. 

My first audiophile headphones were Audeze LCD3s and although they sounded chocolatey, euphonic, and slammed hard, they were incredibly uncomfortable. I couldn’t listen to them for longer than 30 minutes without getting a head ache or a hot head. For head comfort, switching to Susvaras was like going from a youth hostel bunk bed to a five star hotel king sized bed. Susvaras also made the LCD3s sound so bad, I thought something must be wrong with them when I switched back. 

HE1000SE are closely enough related to Susvaras to still sound good in comparison and Utopias are old tech done incredibly well, so they can both hold their own. 

I’m still tempted to try Abyss 1266s but my experience with LCD3s, where the bass slam wasn’t worth the discomfort, negative comments about compatibility with the HA-300 and 300b tubes in general, their unconventional appearance, and issues with crinkly drivers and measured distortion that the company didn’t respond to very graciously initially, puts me off. I worry that Abyss 1266 might be the headphone equivalent of a muscle car. Good in a straight line, but not so good round corners. 

The other headphones I’d like to try with the HA-300 are Meze Elites and D8000 Pros. There isn’t much value in buying either used at the moment. Some reviewers say Meze headphones are well built but don’t sound as good as they should for the money, I’ve never liked how the Empyrean sound signature was described in reviews, and the D8000 Pro seems to be a Jack-of-all-trades and master of none, they don’t look as comfortable as Hifiman headphones.


----------



## Palyodgree

Im just a puppy only experiencing two brands of headphones in the short time I’ve been using headphone, we downsized a couple years ago headphone listening is a must after certain hours , wife’s happier.  The HiFiman 1000SEs are beautiful sounding with the HA 300 though I’ve pondered the 1000SE as a stepping stone for something better I’m in no rush to replace them .


----------



## Yggy

If you need the HE1000SE to be more portable, the FiiO M17 DAP is superb at driving it, I just got one. Plugged in to a power supply, in Enhanced Over The Ear Headphone mode, the HE1000SE is fully powered. 

The amplification quality of the M17 has been likened to a Benchmark HPA4 headphone amp. I haven’t heard an HPA4 but I know it’s regarded as brilliantly engineered and one of the most neutral and best measuring solid state headphone amps you can buy. I considered getting one as a pre-amp for powering my Susvaras from power amp speaker taps but ended up going for the integrated Naim Supernait 3. I’ve copied an extract of a review from Sound News below. 

“M17 just single-handedly outperformed a lot of entry to mid-level desktop DACs and headphone amplifiers that I’m testing on a weekly basis and this isn’t an exaggeration from my part. The biggest surprise was driving big artillery headphones as Audeze LCD-4, Hifiman HE1000SE, Kennerton Rognir and even Hifiman Susvara. It powered them all, while highlighting their strengths and never limiting dynamics. Susvara wasn’t driven as I know it on top-class amplifiers, but in DC mode powered by a better 12V iFi iPower Elite, M17 was squeezing about ~85 to 90% of what the mighty Susvara is capable of.”


----------



## llamaluv (Jan 23, 2022)

A few months ago, I had the HA-300's stock coupling capacitors swapped out for a pair of *Duelund Cast/PIO Tinned Copper* ( 0.22uF 630VDC).

Comparing coupling caps in detail is difficult due to the amount of time required to swap them out and burn them in (and this is also the first time I've engaged in such shenanigans). But the overall sound seems to be more natural, organic, and musical (I know, these are all very fuzzy terms, can't help it). Transients are more rounded and nuanced (okay, that's more specific), which is a quality I value highly. Another way of putting it is that the amp sounds more "tube-like" in the best ways, IMO. Especially for acoustic music.

After burning the caps in for almost 150 hours, I was not happy with the bass, which sounded noticeably weak., and so I assumed the experiment had failed. It was only through the course of listening to the amp occasionally over the next 2-3 months did I start to notice -- and having already "given up" on any expectations -- that the sound of the Duelunds started to really come in. By now, it's at 300+ hours.

The Abyss TC in particular sounds better than ever. I had already slightly favored the HA-300 for the TC over my solid state Bakoon and Pass Labs speaker amp, but had nevertheless considered selling the TC on a few occasions due to the its shortcomings. Now I'm really glad I didn't. The TC sounds genuinely "musical" now, non-fatiguing, smooth, and natural.

I've also been heavily favoring the HA-300 over the Bakoon with the Meze Elite for the week since I've gotten it. And just generally have not given the HA-300 this much undivided attention for a long while 

Worth noting is that the price for these Duelunds have gone down _a lot _since the time I when got them in late 2020. And also worth noting at the risk of stating the obvious is that doing surgery to the innards of the amp is only worth considering if you don't mind the risk of voiding the warranty, or are already out of warranty, as I am.






Stock Mundorf cap:


----------



## Yggy

You’re brave to try something different like that!  How did you find out about that mod and who did it for you? 

Excuse my ignorance but what do coupling capacitors do?  What’s the likely cost difference between stock and your Duelunds? Could you have achieved the extra tubiness by tube rolling or switching headphones or would that have cost more? 

For example, Focal Utopias with the HA-300 sound intimate and tubey but HE1000SE headphones sound like you’re listening on a solid state amp. The difference in sound signature is huge. 

My concern with doing something like that is the 300 hours of burn in time and the difficulty remembering what the before sounded like to know if I was winning. 

Also, I’ve spent a fortune on tubes for my HA-300 so I’d either need to put the burn in hours on my old tubes and suffer a temporary downgrade or knock some hours of life off my upgraded tubes. If you upgrade a solid state amp you can leave it running without thinking it’s costing you money or getting you closer to one of your tubes dying.


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## Palyodgree (Jan 24, 2022)

llamaluv said:


> A few months ago, I had the HA-300's stock coupling capacitors swapped out for a pair of *Duelund Cast/PIO Tinned Copper* ( 0.22uF 630VDC).
> 
> Comparing coupling caps in detail is difficult due to the amount of time required to swap them out and burn them in (and this is also the first time I've engaged in such shenanigans). But the overall sound seems to be more natural, organic, and musical (I know, these are all very fuzzy terms, can't help it). Transients are more rounded and nuanced (okay, that's more specific), which is a quality I value highly. Another way of putting it is that the amp sounds more "tube-like" in the best ways, IMO. Especially for acoustic music.
> 
> ...


Partsconnect have them on sale for $89.00 each , do you think they could be burnt in somehow before installing them ? Thank you for sharing this .

i use Dueland tinned copper speaker wire including headphone cabling, I like it very much , very natural sounding with the human pitch and timbre.


----------



## llamaluv

Palyodgree said:


> Partsconnect have them on sale for $89.00 each , do you think they could be burnt in somehow before installing them ? Thank you for sharing this .
> 
> i use Dueland tinned copper speaker wire including headphone cabling, I like it very much , very natural sounding with the human pitch and timbre.


Sounds like a good DIY project (for someone at least  ). Googling "capacitor burn in device" yields evidence of some prior work.

Yea, I was (irrationally) disappointed to see the Duelund listed so cheap on Partsconnexion and other sites, since I paid $235 each plus overseas shipping a year and half ago, lol.


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## Palyodgree

llamaluv said:


> Sounds like a good DIY project (for someone at least  ). Googling "capacitor burn in device" yields evidence of some prior work.
> 
> Yea, I was (irrationally) disappointed to see the Duelund listed so cheap on Partsconnexion and other sites, since I paid $235 each plus overseas shipping a year and half ago, lol.


The bandits oh my goodness,.


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## Palyodgree

Yggy said:


> You’re brave to try something different like that!  How did you find out about that mod and who did it for you?
> 
> Excuse my ignorance but what do coupling capacitors do?  What’s the likely cost difference between stock and your Duelunds? Could you have achieved the extra tubiness by tube rolling or switching headphones or would that have cost more?
> 
> ...


You may not want to go down this road , I am lucky though to be involved in a small local group of music enthusiasts where we sometimes trade components like dacs , servers / streamers cables ect however I’ve been trying a verity of digital front ends and just settled on a Rockna WaveDream Net server which really made a difference with familiar music I’ve owned for years, I loaded a TB so far and working on a 2nd TB . It made a real nice difference though expensive I’ve home trialed several servers raging in price from a $1200.00 home brew to $10,000.00 brand.

Dacs also though I haven’t settled on one yet, I have a Mearson Dac1 from Sweden coming for a home trial , real sexy looking ,well to me anyway.

I haven’t tried rolling tubes yet no complaints though someday I will ,


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## llamaluv

Yggy said:


> You’re brave to try something different like that!  How did you find out about that mod and who did it for you?
> 
> Excuse my ignorance but what do coupling capacitors do?  What’s the likely cost difference between stock and your Duelunds? Could you have achieved the extra tubiness by tube rolling or switching headphones or would that have cost more?
> 
> ...



Yup, I think these are all legitimate concerns!

Whenever burning in stuff on the tube amp (like these caps, or various tubes), I swap out my primary tubes with some designated "burner" tubes, and also make sure not to let the amp run for super-long without letting it "take a break", periodically . So it's a chore compared to burning in other types of components for sure.

It was a buddy (who's posted on this thread in the past) who suggested the idea, and graciously did the "operation" for me.

Coupling capacitors connect the driver tubes to the power tubes and act as a low-pass filter to remove direct current from the signal so that the power tubes only receive AC (ie, the music signal). That's my layman's understanding of it. They play an important role in the final sound signature, so make a useful target for modding or improving the performance of the device (Same goes for DACs, too, though I'm sure that's less commonly done). This page has a crazy long list of capacitor impressions.

The stock caps in the HA-300 are Mundorf, and are labelled Silver/Gold "RELY", but I don't see a "RELY" Mundorf line of caps listed online anywhere, so I assume they are OEM-specific or something. But their caps of similar size, specs, and packaging colorway sells for around $30.


----------



## Yggy

Thanks Llamaluv. Burn-in tubes and regular cool downs make sense. 

You’ve got a holy trinity of top amps and flagship headphones, pretty much all bases covered. You don’t mess around!  

My split Forza Noir Hybrid HPC arrived today with a 0.5m XLR to speaker taps adapter. I tried running my HE6SE v2 and HE1000SE from my Naim Supernait 3 integrated amp and neither responded well to the extra juice. Too much hum in the background. I thought I had an earthing issue.

So I unpacked my replacement Susvaras, my previous Susvaras got fried by a faulty Burson Conductor 3XR all-in-one and oh mama, the Susvaras rock with the Naim Supernait 3 on the speaker taps. 

You lose a bit of the detail, resolution, and elegance of the HA-300 but the meats it puts on the bone would make a vegetarian cry. 

The HA-300 still shines though working with all of my headphones. It makes them all sound amazing. 

My other gizmos are one trick ponies. The Supernait 3 loves the Susvaras. My FiiO M17 DAP with an upgraded IFI iPower Elite 12v PSU is clean, neutral and super detailed, the perfect match for the HE1000SE, which has the same qualities. 

I take back what I said about the HA-300 under-powering Susvaras. It powers them fine, it’s just a different sound to a power / integrated amp. Compared to the HA-300, you trade off elegance for thickness.

Llamaluv, why did you choose the 150.8 over an XA25 and XP12 stack? I can see the 150.8 has XLR inputs which I prefer and the integrated option may be a little cheaper, take up less space etc. Is that what swung it? I nearly went XA25 and XP12 but couldn’t find a used 230v XP12 at a sensible price. The Supernait 3 was GBP 2,400 at eBay  auction. I didn’t start with a pre-amp otherwise I would have consider a bridged pair of Benchmark AHB2s or Keces S300s. Nothing exceeds expectation like excess!  

Have you considered a Riviera AIC-10 balanced or Viva Egoista 845? Both probably edge the HA-300 and Bakoon but hard to find used.


----------



## llamaluv

Yggy said:


> I take back what I said about the HA-300 under-powering Susvaras. It powers them fine, it’s just a different sound to a power / integrated amp. Compared to the HA-300, you trade off elegance for thickness.



I really agree with this.



Yggy said:


> You’ve got a holy trinity of top amps and flagship headphones, pretty much all bases covered. You don’t mess around!
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...



Thanks! So on the speaker amp, I went for the X150.8 because at the time, it was all about the SR1a for me and I wanted something that was 150+ watts. The RAAL has long since come and gone, but the X150.8 has remained because I very much like what it does for the Susvara. If I was picking a speaker amp now, as you suggest, the XA25 or else one of the other low-power Pass Labs amps (like maybe an INT-25) would probably be what I would go for.

I've never considered the Riviera, but there was a time where I almost lost my mind and bought an Egoista, new and at list price, LOL. It does sound very nice.


----------



## paradoxper

llamaluv said:


> Sounds like a good DIY project (for someone at least  ). Googling "capacitor burn in device" yields evidence of some prior work.
> 
> Yea, I was (irrationally) disappointed to see the Duelund listed so cheap on Partsconnexion and other sites, since I paid $235 each plus overseas shipping a year and half ago, lol.


Ha. By the end of the year those Duelund will likely shoot up to $470.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> I really agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The SR1a comes and gone?  I have that in my personal wish list.  I have a bass heavy AKG K1000 and I love it, the SR1a sounds like an upgrade alternative to K1000.  My only hesitation is amplification.  I can power AKG K1000 with my Cayin headphone amplifiers, but I need to purchase a speaker power amplifier if I go for SR1a.  I have shortlisted the choice of amplfieir to whatever version of second handed Bryston 4BST (and use iDAC-6 MK2 as DAC+preamp), but SR1a + 4BST = Susvara or AB1266, so I am hesitated.


----------



## Andykong

All members in Cayin will start our Chinese New Year holiday today. During the holiday, all orders, inquires and after sales service will be processed immediately when we resume office on 10th February. 2022.

Thanks for all the support and we wish everyone to stay safe, healthy, and to have a wonderful Year of Tiger.






PS. Unlike previous years, I'll will take a break during the Chinese New Year vacation. I'll only check on forum occasionally. Please pardon me if I didn't resposne to your exchanges or PM promptly.


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## rmsanger

hoping this year brings us a tiger of a MK2!


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## llamaluv

Andykong said:


> The SR1a comes and gone? I have that in my personal wish list. I have a bass heavy AKG K1000 and I love it, the SR1a sounds like an upgrade alternative to K1000. My only hesitation is amplification. I can power AKG K1000 with my Cayin headphone amplifiers, but I need to purchase a speaker power amplifier if I go for SR1a. I have shortlisted the choice of amplfieir to whatever version of second handed Bryston 4BST (and use iDAC-6 MK2 as DAC+preamp), but SR1a + 4BST = Susvara or AB1266, so I am hesitated.



For what it's worth, I found that the SR1a needs a warm or rich-sounding DAC to prevent it from sounding too bright. 

With the Pavane, I liked it with a number of neutral solid state amps, including the Bryston 2.5B SST2. 

I (naively) switched to a DAVE without taking into account the resulting synergy with the SR1a, and after doing that, the SR1a was too bright for me, and no longer any fun. Even while using a Pass Labs amp.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> For what it's worth, I found that the SR1a needs a warm or rich-sounding DAC to prevent it from sounding too bright.
> 
> With the Pavane, I liked it with a number of neutral solid state amps, including the Bryston 2.5B SST2.
> 
> I (naively) switched to a DAVE without taking into account the resulting synergy with the SR1a, and after doing that, the SR1a was too bright for me, and no longer any fun. Even while using a Pass Labs amp.



Agree with that, I auditioned the SR1a with Bryston B135 so I have a brief understanding on SR1a with Bryston, I selected Cayin iDAC-6MK2 because that is a DAC with tube buffer and it has a decent preamp built-in. Your Pass Labs amp is a  classical PASS with MOSFET class A?


----------



## wazzupi

Andykong said:


> All members in Cayin will start our Chinese New Year holiday today. During the holiday, all orders, inquires and after sales service will be processed immediately when we resume office on 10th February. 2022.
> 
> Thanks for all the support and we wish everyone to stay safe, healthy, and to have a wonderful Year of Tiger.
> 
> ...


Any possibilities of getting an OG HA-300 upgraded to mark 2 ?


----------



## llamaluv

Andykong said:


> Your Pass Labs amp is a classical PASS with MOSFET class A?


X150.8, so, I guess that means yes?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Available in germany. Ready to ship
~500€ price increase

https://cayin.com/produkt/neu-cayin-ha-300mk2-high-end-roehren-kopfhoererverstaerker/

@Andykong  what gives, I thought release in stummer?


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## ARCXENOS

ThanatosVI said:


> Available in germany. Ready to ship
> ~500€ price increase
> 
> https://cayin.com/produkt/neu-cayin-ha-300mk2-high-end-roehren-kopfhoererverstaerker/
> ...



Was it ever mentioned what improvements the MK2 brings? I nearly talked to my local dealer regarding the mk1, but I think it might be better I wait abit more


----------



## ThanatosVI

ARCXENOS said:


> Was it ever mentioned what improvements the MK2 brings? I nearly talked to my local dealer regarding the mk1, but I think it might be better I wait abit more


It has an additional 4.4mm socket and the volume pot is different.

Those are the things I know of


----------



## Yggy

ARCXENOS said:


> Was it ever mentioned what improvements the MK2 brings? I nearly talked to my local dealer regarding the mk1, but I think it might be better I wait abit more


Also has different tubes as far as I know. I bought my HA-300 used spent and what I’d saved on NOS Sylvania 6NS7W metal bases and 2021 new production Western Electric 300b tubes. 

The improvement in sound quality from each set of tubes going in was so material compared to other upgrades I’ve made to my system (and there have been many 😊), I find it hard to believe a stock v2 with slightly better Chinese tubes could hold a candle to a v1 with nearly the best tubes money can buy. 

The 4.4mm input is a nice addition for people who use a DAP and a desktop system but a female 4.4mm to XLR adapter is GBP 20. 

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/10050...7ebf5c10982357b0a8b1c080c3aa1dbfe7ad18&gclid=


----------



## helljudgement

Yggy said:


> The improvement in sound quality from each set of tubes going in was so material compared to other upgrades I’ve made to my system (and there have been many 😊), I find it hard to believe a stock v2 with slightly better Chinese tubes could hold a candle to a v1 with nearly the best tubes money can buy.


Provided the mk2 have the same sound as the mk1 which is hard to tell at this point. Tubes in my experience can fine tune the experience of the amp but it doesn't fundamentally change the sound of the amp itself. There's a chance if the mk2 sounded different from mk1 that one may lean towards one or the other regardless of tubes used. Looking forward to hearing both side by side.


----------



## jambaj0e

Yggy said:


> Also has different tubes as far as I know. I bought my HA-300 used spent and what I’d saved on NOS Sylvania 6NS7W metal bases and 2021 new production Western Electric 300b tubes.
> 
> The improvement in sound quality from each set of tubes going in was so material compared to other upgrades I’ve made to my system (and there have been many 😊), I find it hard to believe a stock v2 with slightly better Chinese tubes could hold a candle to a v1 with nearly the best tubes money can buy.
> 
> ...



Those are the exact same tubes I'm using on my HA-300 now! Great set of tubes to pair with my Audeze LCD-3!


----------



## Yggy

You gave me the idea for the Sylvanias! I saw you talking about them. Good call!  I think you had the PSVane Acme 300b tubes when I got the Western Electrics and then you upgraded and we ended up with exactly the same tube pairing. 

Can you tell everybody how amazing the HA-300 sounds with beefed up tubes!  They don’t believe me. I read a comment from a guy when I got the HA-300 saying how much it scales with nice tubes. Going from stock to top tubes with the HA-300 is the equivalent of doubling the cost of the DAC you’re using. 

I had LCD3s too, very nice! I fried both drivers on my Susvaras before the holidays on a faulty Burson Conductor 3XR all-in-one, Hifiman very kindly replaced them for a nominal sum even though they said “miscombination” with an amp wasn’t covered by their warranty and I’ve been running them off run off the speaker taps (with great care!) of a Naim Supernait 3. 

The difference in sound signature with Susvaras between the HA-300 and Supernait 3 is Jekyll Vs Hyde, it’s hard to believe it’s the same headphones. The Supernait 3 makes Susvaras sound thick and thunderous with sledgehammer slam. Perfect for rock, rap, and bass heavy modern pop. Completely different to the holographic, detailed, and elegant sound of the HA-300. If you like the punch and slam of LCD3s, you’d love Susvaras run off speaker taps on a Supernait 3. The Supernait 3 is integrated so it’s much cheaper cost than most high-end pre-amp / power amp combination you read about being used with Susvaras.


----------



## Palyodgree

ThanatosVI said:


> It has an additional 4.4mm socket and the volume pot is different.
> 
> Those are the things I know of


The volume pot could be an improvement with usability however the offer in black is the biggest attraction for me .


----------



## rmsanger

I’m very interested in this amp.  How do we find the US price and availability?

what about s product page or release clipping that talks about the new features /improvements over mk1?

if it’s just color and volume pot I may just go used.


----------



## Andykong

ThanatosVI said:


> Available in germany. Ready to ship
> ~500€ price increase
> 
> https://cayin.com/produkt/neu-cayin-ha-300mk2-high-end-roehren-kopfhoererverstaerker/
> ...



Unfortunately, I have no information regarding this arrangement piror to our Chinese New year break, let's see if I can find out some information after we resume operation.


----------



## ARCXENOS

If I wish to also use the HA-300 as a speaker amplifier, any examples of an ideal speaker to pair with it?

I am considering the ATC SCM 11, but I am not sure if the HA-300 is the right amp for it. 

Basically having an all-in-one amp for speakers + susvara is my ideal setup, but I kinda don't want the speaker part to be affected too much, any thoughts?


----------



## Yggy

You’d need easy to drive speakers like Devore Orangutan O/93 or O/96 at the top end. I’m sure there are more affordable mid-priced and budget options.


----------



## ThanatosVI

ARCXENOS said:


> If I wish to also use the HA-300 as a speaker amplifier, any examples of an ideal speaker to pair with it?
> 
> I am considering the ATC SCM 11, but I am not sure if the HA-300 is the right amp for it.
> 
> Basically having an all-in-one amp for speakers + susvara is my ideal setup, but I kinda don't want the speaker part to be affected too much, any thoughts?


As long as it's an efficient speaker you should be fine.
The Ha300 has only 8W at the Speakertap. (Like most 300B Tube amps)


----------



## Yggy

ARCXENOS said:


> Basically having an all-in-one amp for speakers + susvara is my ideal setup, but I kinda don't want the speaker part to be affected too much, any thoughts?


Maybe consider an integrated amplifier and run the Susvaras direct from the speaker taps? I’ve been using a Naim Supernait 3. The Accuphase E-380 is also meant to very dynamic and punchy with Susvaras but more expensive. If you’ve already got a preamp, then I’d think about a Benchmark AHB2 or Keces S300 power amp.


----------



## smodtactical

I read an impression below, was on another forum. Extremely impressive that he liked HA300 more than stellaris!!!


----------



## llamaluv

That's cool. It's for the same reason that I only ended up holding onto a WA33 for less than a year, but have had the HA-300 for two years and counting.


----------



## smodtactical

llamaluv said:


> That's cool. It's for the same reason that I only ended up holding onto a WA33 for less than a year, but have had the HA-300 for two years and counting.



Can you talk more about  The differences between those 2 amps? Thank you.


----------



## llamaluv

smodtactical said:


> Can you talk more about The differences between those 2 amps? Thank you.



The WA33 is fast and resolving in that 2A3 kind of way, and also has lots of power and decent bass extension due to its quad power tubes and push-pull architecture. And it's transparent, neutral, uncolored, etc. This is great, but may not be what a person is looking for in a tube amp. We can already get all those qualities with few compromises from solid state. At the time, I already had a couple solid state amps I liked better in comparison, so let the amp go rather than sink more time/money into trying to imbue the amp with more of a personality to my liking.

The HA-300, as we know, is meaty and organic-sounding. Slightly warm and lends extra solidity to instruments. It's the difference between SET 300B versus push-pull 2A3, though I'm sure I do both amps an injustice by reducing the comparison in that way, lol. And I've always been surprised at how well low-impedance headphones (both dynamic and planar) synergize with it. FWIW, my favorite headphone pairing at the moment is the TC.

My HA-300 is no longer "stock" though, as I swapped out the Mundorf coupling caps with some Duelunds, which has proven to be very worthwhile. I also recently sprang for some Takatsuki 300Bs to replace my PSVane ACME 300Bs, which has also been great, though I like both for slightly different reasons.


----------



## smodtactical

llamaluv said:


> The WA33 is fast and resolving in that 2A3 kind of way, and also has lots of power and decent bass extension due to its quad power tubes and push-pull architecture. And it's transparent, neutral, uncolored, etc. This is great, but may not be what a person is looking for in a tube amp. We can already get all those qualities with few compromises from solid state. At the time, I already had a couple solid state amps I liked better in comparison, so let the amp go rather than sink more time/money into trying to imbue the amp with more of a personality to my liking.
> 
> The HA-300, as we know, is meaty and organic-sounding. Slightly warm and lends extra solidity to instruments. It's the difference between SET 300B versus push-pull 2A3, though I'm sure I do both amps an injustice by reducing the comparison in that way, lol. And I've always been surprised at how well low-impedance headphones (both dynamic and planar) synergize with it. FWIW, my favorite headphone pairing at the moment is the TC.
> 
> My HA-300 is no longer "stock" though, as I swapped out the Mundorf coupling caps with some Duelunds, which has proven to be very worthwhile. I also recently sprang for some Takatsuki 300Bs to replace my PSVane ACME 300Bs, which has also been great, though I like both for slightly different reasons.


Oh damn the duelands must be amazing... and the taks.

Thanks. Have you heard any DNA or elekit amps ?


----------



## Yggy

llamaluv said:


> but have had the HA-300 for two years and counting.


I can’t imagine selling my HA-300. The tone is just too sweet. It brings out the best in all of my headphones. 

I’ve been listening to Focal Utopias with a Nordost Heimdall 2 cable with my HA-300. They’re not as resolving as planars but their intimate tone and low end thickness with the HA-300 is very nice. 

You’re liking your 1266 Phi TCs? Some reviews say the Phi TCs sound their best on tube amps, other reviews question the match between the latest TC drivers and 300b tubes. I listen to mainly pop and female vocals and Susvaras and Focal Utopia do a good job with those genres. 

The HA-300b is doing a great job with my new HE-6 4 screw late production headphones. They’re better than Susvaras with bass heavy pop and EDM because of their extra low end detail, separation, and energy. Susvaras are better for everything else though, in particular vocals. HE-6 vocals sound a bit distant compared to Susvaras, a bit like LCD3s. That’s probably how I’d describe HE-6, half Susvara, half LCD3.


----------



## llamaluv (Feb 9, 2022)

smodtactical said:


> Oh damn the duelands must be amazing... and the taks.
> 
> Thanks. Have you heard any DNA or elekit amps ?


I've always felt cautious about and interested in Takatsukis in equal measure, but since I liked the Duelund cap change so much, I felt more motivated to take the "risk" of buying a pair and giving them a try in this amp. But yea, I like them a lot. They're fast and bring out very nice texture, while still retaining that 300B meatiness, IMO. And no complaints on the bottom-end.

I haven't heard a DNA amp or Elekit. I did hear an Aficionado (which has 2A3s also) on a few occasions, and liked it a lot. More full bodied-sounding than my WA33. Also a friend's WA33 sounds better than what I had. Both used EML Solid Plates, whereas my WA33 used EML Meshes, which may have been a little too light and "delicate". That may have been my main issue. But now I'll never know, haha.



Yggy said:


> You’re liking your 1266 Phi TCs? Some reviews say the Phi TCs sound their best on tube amps, other reviews question the match between the latest TC drivers and 300b tubes. I listen to mainly pop and female vocals and Susvaras and Focal Utopia do a good job with those genres.


I've almost sold my TCs about four times up til now, lol. Probably because I've always been a little indifferent to how it sounds out of my solid state amps (Bakoon AMP-R13 and Pass Labs speaker amp). I always liked it slightly more on the HA-300, but after the capacitor change, I've been listening to it a ton, and feel like it sounds thoroughly "musical" now, which has never been a word that ever popped into my head to describe the TC, hand-wavey as that term is. I listen to mostly jazz, and prioritize timbre over dynamics, though.


----------



## dadracer2

Do we know if it is certain that a mk2 HA300 is coming? If so maybe we might get more info after the Chinese New Year.


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> Do we know if it is certain that a mk2 HA300 is coming? If so maybe we might get more info after the Chinese New Year.


It is certain,  it's even available in germany already (I posted the link on last page)


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> It is certain,  it's even available in germany already (I posted the link on last page)


D'Oh! 
Thanks for this. I really wanted a black option when I got mine but Cayin said they weren't going to offer that. Actually now that I see it, I'm not sure.....maybe its the gloss. I think a matte black would have been better. So upgraded 300B and 6SN7s and a new volume control? Are there any circuit changes at all?


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> D'Oh!
> Thanks for this. I really wanted a black option when I got mine but Cayin said they weren't going to offer that. Actually now that I see it, I'm not sure.....maybe its the gloss. I think a matte black would have been better. So upgraded 300B and 6SN7s and a new volume control? Are there any circuit changes at all?


Different tubes, I wouldn't call them upgraded.
The Fullmusic 300B tubes from the mk1 should be superior, but are no longer im production,  thetefore they had to change tubes to ensure supply.

The Mk2 has a new volume control and a 4.4mm socket in addition to 6 3mm and 4 pin XLR. 
We don't know anything about circuit changes


----------



## dadracer2

Fair enough. Have the 6SN7s also changed? The 4.4mm input is handy but not vital. Yes I guess we will know more soon.


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> Fair enough. Have the 6SN7s also changed? The 4.4mm input is handy but not vital. Yes I guess we will know more soon.


I do think so yes  but the PsVane CV181 is still in production if I remember correctly,  so it should be no problem to get them if one wants to


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> I do think so yes  but the PsVane CV181 is still in production if I remember correctly,  so it should be no problem to get them if one wants to


Thanks. I had been thinking more about the 6SN7 from Linlai or Sylvania.


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> Thanks. I had been thinking more about the 6SN7 from Linlai or Sylvania.


Personally I'd go for one of those
However I don't even havw the amp, and can’t talk from first hand experience


----------



## dadracer2

Yes of course, just read you signature.  Do you just use the Octave V16 for headphones? Meantime I'm trying to find a UK dealer for Linlai.


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> Yes of course, just read you signature.  Do you just use the Octave V16 for headphones? Meantime I'm trying to find a UK dealer for Linlai.


Currently I am only using it for headphones yes.
My current libing Situation doesn't allow for speaker usage.

Btb-elektronik.de might ship to you in the UK if you won’t find an uk dealer


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> Currently I am only using it for headphones yes.
> My current libing Situation doesn't allow for speaker usage.
> 
> Btb-elektronik.de might ship to you in the UK if you won’t find an uk dealer


Thank you sir, most kind.


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> Currently I am only using it for headphones yes.
> My current libing Situation doesn't allow for speaker usage.
> 
> Btb-elektronik.de might ship to you in the UK if you won’t find an uk dealer


I had another look at the mk2 photos and have realised the 6SN7 GTBs are from Tung Sol (which they also spec in the A 845 Pro limited edition amp). These are certainly much more easily obtained, so might be a good starting point!


----------



## Andykong

I have updated the opening post of this thread with HA-300MK2 highlights.  Hopefully this should explained the major different between the origianl HA-300 and revised HA-300MK2.

We are pushing very hard to obtain the custom make ALPS potentiometer as early as possible, once we received that, we'll schedule production immediately and announce complete product information.   

Sorry for all the delays. I'll try my best to keep this thread updated.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Enhanced anti-shock anti-interference design
60sec startup delay circuit

Interesting


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> Enhanced anti-shock anti-interference design
> 60sec startup delay circuit
> 
> Interesting


I can understand the anti shock is maybe better feet, but anti interference I am intrigued by.


----------



## Andykong

If you own HA-300 already, there is no need to rush into MK2, wait till you can try it out in person, or when there are several reviews that offers diversified and reliable impressions.  We don't see the need to change HA-300 dramatically, it continues to perform very well as a TOTL vacuum tube headphone amplifier. The HA-300MK2 is a refiniement project to adapt our flagship design with the latest trends in high-end headphone market.  



ThanatosVI said:


> It has an additional 4.4mm socket and the volume pot is different.
> 
> Those are the things I know of





Palyodgree said:


> The volume pot could be an improvement with usability however the offer in black is the biggest attraction for me .



The new volume control offers 41-steps, but that's not all.  We sincrely appreciate the quality of *volume control* we have achieved with C9 portable headphone amplifier so we decided to adapt that design into HA-300.  We added  MUSES72320  resistance ladder stereo electronic volume to HA-300 to deliver a very precise and highly linear volume control system in MK2 implementaiton.



Yggy said:


> Also has different tubes as far as I know. I bought my HA-300 used spent and what I’d saved on NOS Sylvania 6NS7W metal bases and 2021 new production Western Electric 300b tubes.
> 
> The improvement in sound quality from each set of tubes going in was so material compared to other upgrades I’ve made to my system (and there have been many 😊), I find it hard to believe a stock v2 with slightly better Chinese tubes could hold a candle to a v1 with nearly the best tubes money can buy.
> 
> ...



The 4.4mm is not a direct "replication" of XLR4 in HA-300MK2, if you look at the rated output carefully, you'll notice the output power are different.  I don't know the optimisation behind these, but I remember the Engineers did mentioned that these connectors sounds slighlty different.


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> If you own HA-300 already, there is no need to rush into MK2, wait till you can try it out in person, or when there are several reviews that offers diversified and reliable impressions.  We don't see the need to change HA-300 dramatically, it continues to perform very well as a TOTL vacuum tube headphone amplifier. The HA-300MK2 is a refiniement project to adapt our flagship design with the latest trends in high-end headphone market.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s fine I wasn’t planning to. I’d like to audition one for real and also to check out the black paintwork as it looks a bit glossy in the photos. It’s likely with all the improvements to have moved it on a bit but maybe rolling valves on the mk1 would offer an alternative improvement?


----------



## Yggy

dadracer2 said:


> It’s likely with all the improvements to have moved it on a bit but maybe rolling valves on the mk1 would offer an alternative improvement?


Would be interesting if somebody in the hifi press compared a stock MK1 to a tube rolled MK1 with Western Electric or Takatsuki 300b tubes and similar NOS 6SN7 tubes to a stock MK2.

Cayin should offer a standard and upgraded tube version of the HA-300 like Woo Audio do with the WA33.


----------



## Yggy

I’ve been listening to my newly acquired Hifiman HE-6 4 screw late production headphones on the HA-300. 

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/wts-rare-mint-condition-hifiman-4-screw-he-6.18667/

I wasn’t sure about them initially, they aren’t as clear, airy or comfortable to wear as Susvaras, but with a Forza Audio Noir Hybrid HPC cable, the grilles removed to widen the soundstage, and the HA-300 set to high impedance at 1:00 they comfortably out-perform Susvaras for bass heavy / heavily produced and layered modern pop, rock, R&B, and rap, their low end slam, texture, detail, and dynamics is incredible. 

The Susvara and HA-300 is elegance matched with elegance and the result can be a bit too polite for energetic music genres. The pairing is perfect with vocals, particularly female, acoustic, easy listening, jazz, and classical. 

Western Electric 300b tubes tame the rawness of the HE-6 and beautify their old school planar bass sculpted forcefulness. By far the best I’ve heard any headphone sound.


----------



## dadracer2

Yggy said:


> Would be interesting if somebody in the hifi press compared a stock MK1 to a tube rolled MK1 with Western Electric or Takatsuki 300b tubes and similar NOS 6SN7 tubes to a stock MK2.
> 
> Cayin should offer a standard and upgraded tube version of the HA-300 like Woo Audio do with the WA33.


I'm guessing Cayin will already be speaking to some reviewers to get them lined up. I don't think that's how they have done things, they seem to bring out a mk2 of an original device once they are able to improve it.


----------



## Andykong (Feb 14, 2022)

Yggy said:


> Would be interesting if somebody in the hifi press compared a stock MK1 to a tube rolled MK1 with Western Electric or Takatsuki 300b tubes and similar NOS 6SN7 tubes to a stock MK2.
> 
> Cayin should offer a standard and upgraded tube version of the HA-300 like Woo Audio do with the WA33.



Since you quoted Woo Audio, we can't comment on your question. We cannot comment on the practise of our competitor.

On the other hands, from what I noticed, media review is unlikely to involve tube rolling with very expensive or NOS vacuum tubes in a vacuum tube review.  

However, I can tell you in advance, if you have a HA-300 already, like it enough to invest in $3000 on tube rolling to improve its sound, then you should do that instead of spending the budget to buy a new HA-300MK2.


----------



## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> I'm guessing Cayin will already be speaking to some reviewers to get them lined up. I don't think that's how they have done things, they seem to bring out a mk2 of an original device once they are able to improve it.



If someone will discuss with reviewer on HA-300MK2 review arrangement, that person will be me.  Unfortunately I haven't talk to anyone about this, and I shouldn't when we are still having uncertainties on mass product schedule.  Unfortunately it will take a while before we can arrange a HA-300MK2 review with reputable media, please state tune patiently.  If you need to make a purchase decision in near future, maybe HA-300MK2 is not the right candidated because, again, we don't have a firm date for availability except the first small-scale production batch.


----------



## Ninja Theory

I am interested to buy the MK2 in black colour finish. I assume that the Empy will sound fantastic with this amp (or in the future, possibly the Elite). What minimum speaker sensitivity is advised for the HA to really shine with speakers? I would like to use it for not only headphones but also with the speakers in my signature (if possible).


----------



## Yggy

Ninja Theory said:


> I assume that the Empy will sound fantastic


Andykong said the Empy was one of the planars that sounded very good with the HA-300.

 " The result with Planar is mixed. Susvara, Thor (Kennerton), Empyrean and D8000 sound very good but Abyss, HEK, Ether Flow are not as outstanding. "

This review has sections on the Susvara and HD650 with the HA-300. I was thinking of picking up a cheap HD650 to try it. I've owned one twice over the years but not heard it with the HA-300.

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/cayin-ha300.23823/reviews


----------



## dadracer2

Ninja Theory said:


> I am interested to buy the MK2 in black colour finish. I assume that the Empy will sound fantastic with this amp (or in the future, possibly the Elite). What minimum speaker sensitivity is advised for the HA to really shine with speakers? I would like to use it for not only headphones but also with the speakers in my signature (if possible).


For speakers it will depend on how big your listening room is and where you sit relative to them. I tried a few and finally chose some 96db Horning speakers. They work very well indeed and my listening room is reasonably large. I would say go for at least 95db and with an impedance of 8 ohms. Don’t be caught out by some companies who quote over enthusiastic sensitivity numbers for example Klipsch in some of their lower models. You will find quite a wide range of suitable speakers out there especially if you are in the USA or Europe.


----------



## Ninja Theory (Feb 20, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> For speakers it will depend on how big your listening room is and where you sit relative to them. I tried a few and finally chose some 96db Horning speakers. They work very well indeed and my listening room is reasonably large. I would say go for at least 95db and with an impedance of 8 ohms. Don’t be caught out by some companies who quote over enthusiastic sensitivity numbers for example Klipsch in some of their lower models. You will find quite a wide range of suitable speakers out there especially if you are in the USA or Europe.


Ok thanks. I guess the speaker taps won't be ideal for me (would have been nice). My listening room is small (12 foot square / or 3.5m square). My main speakers are 90db 4 ohm (Sonus Faber Chameleon T) and my bookshelfs (Axis Voicebox S) are 83db 5 ohm.


----------



## dadracer2

Ninja Theory said:


> Ok thanks. I guess it won't be ideal for me. My listening room is small (12 foot square / or 3.5m square). My main speakers are 90db 4 ohm (Sonus Faber Chameleon T) and my bookshelfs (Axis Voicebox S) are 83db 5 ohm.


If you have small room then LS3/5A might work. Although they have a low sensitivity they have quite a high impedance which makes them a good match. Maybe the Falcon version with its 15 ohm nominal impedance if you can get a listen. Plus the LS3/5A were made for small monitoring studios (even OB vans!).


----------



## Benny-x

Yggy said:


> I’ve been listening to my newly acquired Hifiman HE-6 4 screw late production headphones on the HA-300.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/wts-rare-mint-condition-hifiman-4-screw-he-6.18667/
> 
> ...


I'm really excited to try this pairing too. I just got my HE-6 4-screws back, but my HA-300 is boxed up as we're getting ready for a move. It'll be into the Fall once I get it all back together again. Good to hear you're loving the pairing. 

And I bought my upgrade tubes way before the new model WE300Bs came out, but I hope I can grab a pair of those too sometime later. I got the Elrog 300B, but it turned out to be right in the middle of the pandemic and they're still stuck on the other side of the planet in my parent's closet. That visit 2 years ago still hasn't panned out. I think the Elrogs should be a really interesting pairing because they're supposed to be a little more aggressive 300B, but still with midrange magic.


----------



## Benny-x

Andykong said:


> If you own HA-300 already, there is no need to rush into MK2, wait till you can try it out in person, or The new volume control offers 41-steps, but that's not all.  We sincrely appreciate the quality of *volume control* we have achieved with C9 portable headphone amplifier so we decided to adapt that design into HA-300.  We added  MUSES72320  resistance ladder stereo electronic volume to HA-300 to deliver a very precise and highly linear volume control system in MK2 implementaiton.



Thanks for the details, Andy. I always appreciate the time and effort you put into everything for us. 

Based on your initial comments and then the post regarding the C9 volume control design, that means this new volume control in the Mk-ii is a hybrid analogue+digital volume control, right? 

Overall, the little changes to the HA-300 Mk-ii sound like they might be in some critical locations and they might have a pretty interesting impact on the sound compared to the Mk-i. I'm looking forward to this later in the year, I'll definitely track one down in Shanghai and face it off against my Mk-i.


----------



## Yggy

You’re in for a treat with the 4 screw HE-6 and HA-300. Even if you don’t like R&B, have a listen to Chris Brown’s album X in 24 bit / 96.0 kHz, in particular, the tracks Loyal, New Flame, Drown In It, and Came To Do. 

Elrogs and Takatsuki were the other 300b tubes on my short list when I bought Western Electrics. 

You’ve probably read these comments about your Elrogs in this shoot-out. 

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/the-quick-and-dirty-300b-tube-shootout

“I really liked this tube. It has a Teutonic precision to it, with very tight and controlled bass and a linear sound throughout the frequency range. Among all the tubes tested, I found it to have the best dynamics and speed. The soundstaging is laid back and the tonality is slightly dark.”

I think somebody suggested KR come bottles but I wasn’t sure if they were compatible with the HA-300? Maybe it was just a particular version that had the compatibility issue, HPs? 

There are 4 pairs of KR 300b tubes on eBay at USD 899. I wondered if they are the coke bottles? 

My 4 screw HE-6 have made me completely satisfied with the HA-300. They are the Mr Hyde to my Susvara’s Dr Jekyll. 

I experimented with amping forcefulness into my Susvaras with a Naim Supernait 3 but I missed the sweet tone and refinement of the HA-300 with my fancy tubes. 

Buying an HE-6 was a lot cheaper than going for separates like the Benchmark LA4 / HPA4 and AHB2 or Pass Labs XP12 and XA25 or ridiculously expensive tube headphone amps like the Riviera AIC10 or Viva Egoista / Solista. 

I think other headphone amps like the Niimbus would come out even with the HA-300 overall. You’d be trading off tone sweetness for extra dynamics. 

Also, some of the top review combos with the Susvara don’t sound like my cup of tea. The Pass Labs XP12 and XA25 and meant to make the Susvara sound even more smooth and analog and for me the Susvara is so smooth and analog, it needs more treble bite and bass etched-ness which is what the HE-6 provides in return for losing some clarity, refinement, and airiness. 

What I like most about the HE-6 and HA-300 is the low end detail and texture. You can hear further into the bass than any other headphone I’ve listened to, it feels visceral and alive. 

The Susvara is perfectly polished, technically much better, but a bit boring. If it was a snooker player, it would be Steve Davis or Steven Hendry. The HE-6 would be Alex Higgins, Jimmy White or Ronnie O’Sullivan.


----------



## clemster

Just found this thread when searching around.  I have the lead design engineer, Chen, from Cayin, who designed the HA-300 on my WeChat.  So if there are intractable issues, can maybe refer him to you.  He's quite friendly and helped resolve some issues on my HA-300.

Cheers.


----------



## karlheinz147

clemster said:


> Just found this thread when searching around.  I have the lead design engineer, Chen, from Cayin, who designed the HA-300 on my WeChat.  So if there are intractable issues, can maybe refer him to you.  He's quite friendly and helped resolve some issues on my HA-300.
> 
> Cheers.


What kind of issues did you have with your HA-300?


----------



## smodtactical

Was HA300 at CanJam NY?


----------



## ThanatosVI

https://cayin.com/produkt/neu-cayin-ha-300mk2-high-end-roehren-kopfhoererverstaerker/

Introductory price, "only" as expensive as the Mk1 now


----------



## Andykong

smodtactical said:


> Was HA300 at CanJam NY?



Unfortunately, it wasn't.  We run out of desktop tube amplifier in our inventory, so MusicTeck displayed our CS-55A and use its phone out to drive full size headphone at CanJam New York.


----------



## Andykong

clemster said:


> Just found this thread when searching around.  I have the lead design engineer, Chen, from Cayin, who designed the HA-300 on my WeChat.  So if there are intractable issues, can maybe refer him to you.  He's quite friendly and helped resolve some issues on my HA-300.
> 
> Cheers.



Chen is a guru in tube amplifier design, you are a lucky man.


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> You’re in for a treat with the 4 screw HE-6 and HA-300. Even if you don’t like R&B, have a listen to Chris Brown’s album X in 24 bit / 96.0 kHz, in particular, the tracks Loyal, New Flame, Drown In It, and Came To Do.
> 
> Elrogs and Takatsuki were the other 300b tubes on my short list when I bought Western Electrics.
> 
> ...



That's a good analogy.  For some reason, I didn't watch Football when I study in England but I won't miss the snooker games.  Steven Hendry was a young boy whenI left England, so it was all about Steve Davis, Alex Higgins and Jimmy White at my college time.  

HE6 and Susvara indeed has the same magic, so they both work with HA-300 perfectly. I agree with you that the Susvara is more polished, so the 300B magic is more prominent with HE6, making it more jaw-dropping.  I remember when HiFiman introduced HE1000 back at 2015, I told my friend that I'll would not trade my HE6 for HE1000 even when I didn't need to pay for the swap.  That said a lot on how much I was into HE6.  It was until Susvara that I finally admitted that  HiFiman revisited HE6 camp and offered an upgrade for my HE6.   To a large extend, the Susvara is widely accepted nowaday and HE6 or HE6se become a "baby Suavara" to the new comers.    

I am quite certain that if you like Susvara with HA-300, you'll like HE6/HE6se with HA-300, and vice versa.


----------



## Andykong

Benny-x said:


> Thanks for the details, Andy. I always appreciate the time and effort you put into everything for us.
> 
> Based on your initial comments and then the post regarding the C9 volume control design, that means this new volume control in the Mk-ii is a hybrid analogue+digital volume control, right?
> 
> Overall, the little changes to the HA-300 Mk-ii sound like they might be in some critical locations and they might have a pretty interesting impact on the sound compared to the Mk-i. I'm looking forward to this later in the year, I'll definitely track one down in Shanghai and face it off against my Mk-i.



The volume control function of HA-300MKII is purely analogy , but the UI involve electronic, a more commonly used  description is electronic controlled analog volume. This is very different form  digital volume control which manipulate the bitstream signal at digital level to achieve volume increase or decrease.  

You can try to understand this concept with reference to drive by wire in automobile industry.

Coventional steering system converts the rotation of the steering wheel into a swivelling movement of the road wheels,  When we move to a drive by wire system, the steering wheel become a "encoder" that record the steering movement of the driver, the movement will be transmitted electronically to a microprocessor that recover the steering movement from the electornic signal and than manipulate the road wheels accurately.  In HA-300MKII, the ALPS volume knob is equivalent to the steering wheel which act as an encoder in the drive by wire system.


----------



## Palyodgree

Well put Andy ,..


----------



## Palyodgree

ThanatosVI said:


> https://cayin.com/produkt/neu-cayin-ha-300mk2-high-end-roehren-kopfhoererverstaerker/
> 
> Introductory price, "only" as expensive as the Mk1 now


Thanatos you given up waiting for the Rockna Wavelight ? ,….I did however I ordered the WaveDream Net , love it very much next step I’ll have to sell my HA 300 for the mk2 in black , so sexy looking ..


----------



## ThanatosVI

Palyodgree said:


> Thanatos you given up waiting for the Rockna Wavelight ? ,….I did however I ordered the WaveDream Net , love it very much next step I’ll have to sell my HA 300 for the mk2 in black , so sexy looking ..


Beautiful, I'm sure it sounds as good as it looks.

Btw I still have the Wavelight Server on pre order, I'm just not sure if I keep it, since there is no need for a second Server.


----------



## Palyodgree

I’ve tried a few servers borrowed and bought the past couple years however the WaveDream takes the cake .


----------



## Andykong

Ninja Theory said:


> Ok thanks. I guess the speaker taps won't be ideal for me (would have been nice). My listening room is small (12 foot square / or 3.5m square). My main speakers are 90db 4 ohm (Sonus Faber Chameleon T) and my bookshelfs (Axis Voicebox S) are 83db 5 ohm.





dadracer2 said:


> If you have small room then LS3/5A might work. Although they have a low sensitivity they have quite a high impedance which makes them a good match. Maybe the Falcon version with its 15 ohm nominal impedance if you can get a listen. Plus the LS3/5A were made for small monitoring studios (even OB vans!).



I would say room size, speaker size and speaker sensitivity are important factor when you consider amplifier matching with speaker.  For example, a floor standing multi-woofers speaker like Sonus Faber Chameleon T at 90dB is more demanding than Chameleon B  at 87dB.   To be frank, I'll hesitate to drvie Chameleon T with a 300B SETA, in regardless of HA-300 or the more expensive 100% speaker based 300B SETA.  Cayin CS-55A at half the price of HA-300 will handle the Chameleon T a lot better, so its a matter of priority. I am not saying it won't drive the Chameleon T, I can forsee beautifully sound but with a lot of compromise.  

On the other hand, LS3/5a is definitely possible for HA-300 in a small room.  LS3/5A is a very popular speaker in Hong Kong, I heard this many many times in different system and room size.  For 150sq ft small room, a SETA 300B amplifier performs more than OK in my experience, a 14w EL34 probably will offer better control and dynamic.  By the way, I am not a LS3/5A fans, I'll prefer PMC DB1 Gold at a lower porice or ProAc 1SC/DB1 at a slightly higher price.  These speakers sound very good in a 150sq room small room with 8wpc 300B SETA.


----------



## Andykong (Mar 4, 2022)

Dobrescu George said:


> Does Cayin make any desktop amps? I'd buy an amp for a bookshelf speaker setup only because it would look this badass


You better give me a budget, otherwise I'll recommend *Soul i170*.

or you can start  *HERE*.


----------



## musicman59

Andykong said:


> I would say room size, speaker size and speaker sensitivity are important factor when you consider amplifier matching with speaker.  For example, a floor standing multi-woofers speaker like Sonus Faber Chameleon T at 90dB is more demanding than Chameleon B  at 87dB.   To be frank, I'll hesitate to drvie Chameleon T with a 300B SETA, in regardless of HA-300 or the more expensive 100% speaker based 300B SETA.  Cayin CS-55A at half the price of HA-300 will handle the Chameleon T a lot better, so its a matter of priority. I am not saying it won't drive the Chameleon T, I can forsee beautifully sound but with a lot of compromise.
> 
> On the other hand, LS3/5a is definitely possible for HA-300 in a small room.  LS3/5A is a very popular speaker in Hong Kong, I heard this many many times in different system and room size.  For 150sq ft small room, a SETA 300B amplifier performs more than OK in my experience, a 14w EL34 probably will offer better control and dynamic.  By the way, I am not a LS3/5A fans, I'll prefer PMC DB1 Gold at a lower porice or ProAc 1SC/DB1 at a slightly higher price.  These speakers sound very good in a 150sq room small room with 8wpc 300B SETA.


Can you explain why the model T at 90db sensitivity is more demanding than the model B at 87db when 3 db less in sensitivity will require double the power to make the B model sound at the same level then the T (assuming both have the same ohm resistance)?

Typically high ohms and high sensitivity speakers are used with low watts tube amplifiers like a 300b.


----------



## Andykong

musicman59 said:


> Can you explain why the model T at 90db sensitivity is more demanding than the model B at 87db when 3 db less in sensitivity will require double the power to make the B model sound at the same level then the T (assuming both have the same ohm resistance)?
> 
> Typically high ohms and high sensitivity speakers are used with low watts tube amplifiers like a 300b.



When you have more drivers or bigger drivers, you need more current to control the driver accurately.


----------



## musicman59

Agree but that’s not the only factor. The sensitivity and resistance also play a big part.


----------



## Andykong

musicman59 said:


> Agree but that’s not the only factor. The sensitivity and resistance also play a big part.



Didnt' I clarify this point already: 
I would say room size, speaker size and speaker sensitivity are important factor .... did you read that?

And I quote a specific example of Chameleon T at 90dB is more demanding than Chameleon B at 87dB.  In other word, I keep most of the variable under control (e.g., woofer and tweeter characteristic) and comparing two extra 7" woofer against of Chameleon T vs 3dB sensitivity advantage of Chameleon B, is that a clear and well define example?


----------



## musicman59 (Mar 4, 2022)

Wow!
Nice way to answer by somebody that is in the industry to potential customers…..

You just lost one…. I am out!


----------



## Andykong

musicman59 said:


> Wow!
> Nice way to answer by somebody that is in the industry to potential customers…..
> 
> You just lost one…. I am out!


Thank you for dropping by.


----------



## wazzupi

musicman59 said:


> Wow!
> Nice way to answer by somebody that is in the industry to potential customers…..
> 
> You just lost one…. I am out!


Probably should of just read it the first time around idk…


----------



## wazzupi

The real question is… where does one find 4 rca 22de4 tubes in NA !!


----------



## greenmac

ThanatosVI said:


> https://cayin.com/produkt/neu-cayin-ha-300mk2-high-end-roehren-kopfhoererverstaerker/
> 
> Introductory price, "only" as expensive as the Mk1 now




So is the mk 2 available now ?

How can I get in UK ?


----------



## Benny-x

Andykong said:


> The volume control function of HA-300MKII is purely analogy , but the UI involve electronic, a more commonly used  description is electronic controlled analog volume. This is very different form  digital volume control which manipulate the bitstream signal at digital level to achieve volume increase or decrease.
> 
> You can try to understand this concept with reference to drive by wire in automobile industry.
> 
> Coventional steering system converts the rotation of the steering wheel into a swivelling movement of the road wheels,  When we move to a drive by wire system, the steering wheel become a "encoder" that record the steering movement of the driver, the movement will be transmitted electronically to a microprocessor that recover the steering movement from the electornic signal and than manipulate the road wheels accurately.  In HA-300MKII, the ALPS volume knob is equivalent to the steering wheel which act as an encoder in the drive by wire system.


Whatever your relationship with Cayin, I hope they love you as much as we do. Thanks a lot for the answer and the analogy, I really appreciate it. 

I probably don't have the whole picture, but I think I understood what you meant. It's very interesting sounding and it piques my imagination, wondering what the impact sounds like~


----------



## Benny-x

greenmac said:


> So is the mk 2 available now ?
> 
> How can I get in UK ?


No, probably 6 months delayed due to supply chain issues. Only several samples are around, not even enough for the review circuit.


----------



## 111MilesToGo (Mar 6, 2022)

I am posting here to get myself started on tube amps. Zero experience yet, so I‘d like to avoid an expensive trial and error procedure by drawing on the experience of all you folks here.

I have a Sennheiser HD 800 S and a Beyerdynamic T1 2nd gen (these hopefully are how their product names are spelled officially to facilitate searching). Currently, I am driving these let‘s say medium to high impedance full size cans off my Violectric HPA V281, mostly in balanced mode. My digital branch has the Chord Hugo 2 DAC and others (including the Cayin N6ii with various modules), my analogue branch with an old Linn LP12 hasn‘t settled on a ”final“ phono preamp yet. The V281 is well known as neutral solid state with a slight tendency towards the warmer side.

It seems to be common knowledge that these cans - in particular the HD 800 S - do gain considerably from a tube amp.

I‘d like to simply ask which tube amps you could really recommend for these cans from your experience. What tube amp principles - with transformers or OTL, single ended triode or others? I mean to ask for ideas and points / criteria to consider.

My ideal tube + headphones sound? Not much of an idea yet. Guess auditioning should develop a feeling. But I think I can ask here even before such rounds. When my searches will have settled, sound quality and immersion into the music will be the primary decision driver.

It might well be that sometimes I‘d like to also use my IEMs (Sennheiser IE 900, Beyerdynamic Xelento) with such tube amp.

In other words: A tube amp for me as a secondary requirement should provide some versatility. Regarding both the inputs (ideally several [say three] RCAs like a preamp, and outputs (6.3, 3.5, 4.4, XLR).

There’s no particular reason for posting here on the HA-300 Mk2 thread, except for having read about its sound quality and the a.m. versatility.

Comments and recommendations highly welcome! Thanks.


----------



## Yggy

Just bought a pair of AKG K1000s in lovely condition, 6XXX serial number, with a wired Stefan Audio XLR cable upgrade. I believe AndyKong had or has these? Apparently, they love Western Electric WE300b and Sylvania 6SN7 tubes so I can’t wait to have a listen. 

Buying HE-6 headphones has taught me a headphone doesn’t have to be technically the best to be really enjoyable to listen to. I prefer listening to HE-6 to Susvaras even though I know Susvaras are by far the better headphone technically. HE-6 are more entertaining and fun.


----------



## mfgillia

wazzupi said:


> Probably should of just read it the first time around idk…


IMHO didn't think he did anything wrong in asking that follow up question. He didn't attack anyone nor was his tone condescending - at least certainly not in comparison to the answer he received.


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> Just bought a pair of AKG K1000s in lovely condition, 6XXX serial number, with a wired Stefan Audio XLR cable upgrade. I believe AndyKong had or has these? Apparently, they love Western Electric WE300b and Sylvania 6SN7 tubes so I can’t wait to have a listen.
> 
> Buying HE-6 headphones has taught me a headphone doesn’t have to be technically the best to be really enjoyable to listen to. I prefer listening to HE-6 to Susvaras even though I know Susvaras are by far the better headphone technically. HE-6 are more entertaining and fun.



Yes, I bought a pair of K1000 back in 2019.  22xx serial number.  I was a bit skeptical about HA-300 with K1000 before that, I expect they need more power than HA-300 can deliver,  but they turn out very OK. Not the best match when compare to speaker amplifier, but enjoyable among headphone amplifiers. 

K1000 is not at the same level as H D800 and Utopia when come to resoluton, but these ear-speaker offer very unique experience because they can thrown the soundstage in front of you, instead of over  your head like other headphones.


----------



## Andykong

111MilesToGo said:


> I am posting here to get myself started on tube amps. Zero experience yet, so I‘d like to avoid an expensive trial and error procedure by drawing on the experience of all you folks here.
> 
> I have a Sennheiser HD 800 S and a Beyerdynamic T1 2nd gen (these hopefully are how their product names are spelled officially to facilitate searching). Currently, I am driving these let‘s say medium to high impedance full size cans off my Violectric HPA V281, mostly in balanced mode. My digital branch has the Chord Hugo 2 DAC and others (including the Cayin N6ii with various modules), my analogue branch with an old Linn LP12 hasn‘t settled on a ”final“ phono preamp yet. The V281 is well known as neutral solid state with a slight tendency towards the warmer side.
> 
> ...



Someone asked similar questions in Liric thread, and I have provided a breif introduction to tube amplifiers in general *HERE*, maybe this is a good starting point of your searching.


----------



## wazzupi

mfgillia said:


> IMHO didn't think he did anything wrong in asking that follow up question. He didn't attack anyone nor was his tone condescending - at least certainly not in comparison to the answer he received.


he didn't ask a question... he literally stated something, andy said I actually already explained this part if you had just read what I posted. who said he did anything wrong ?


----------



## mfgillia (Mar 9, 2022)

wazzupi said:


> he didn't ask a question... he literally stated something, andy said I actually already explained this part if you had just read what I posted. who said he did anything wrong ?


It's a forum. People make statements, engage in conversation and question / analyze posts to drill down further on various topics. This is how many of us learn.

IMHO Andy's tone came off as condescending with the intent to ridicule him then celebrated taking pleasure in hurting the guy's feelings.

No. It's not the biggest deal in the world.

Yes, it is unusal behavior in a rep for a popular line of audio equipment most of whom on other forums routinely answer the same or similar questions repeatedly and professionally as it's a normal part of the job.


----------



## 111MilesToGo

Andykong said:


> Someone asked similar questions in Liric thread, and I have provided a breif introduction to tube amplifiers in general *HERE*, maybe this is a good starting point of your searching.


Thanks for pointing out your little intro, @Andykong. As I had asked the same question on the Sennheiser HD 800 S thread,
from https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...ost-for-summary.795365/page-473#post-16852786
to https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...ost-for-summary.795365/page-475#post-16855683,
a number of useful explanations, comments, recommendations and general food for thought has accumulated there, too.


----------



## Yggy

AndyKong, the AKG K1000 with hardwired Stefan Audio cable upgrade, HA-300, and WE300b tubes is more than “very OK”!  

It’s to classical music and vocals what the HE-6 is to rap, R&B, and EDM. As you say, the soundstage is in front of you, the sound is delicate, light, detailed, sweet, and holographic. 

I’m listening to Gabriel’s Oboe on Yo Yo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone in 24 Bit 88.2 kHz FLAC. It’s like listening to the music played live in a cathedral. There is no sensation of wearing headphones, it’s just your ears, air, and the most beautiful sound. 

I thought I’d gone too far with the AKG K1000. How could something manufactured in the 1990s be relevant or listenable in 2022. 

Thank you Heinz Renner. My flaps are open and my ears are amazed. I’ve heard Heinz listens to his K1000 with a subwoofer, I’ll have to give that a go. I have an old Denon AVC-A1HDA cinema amp, I might try the subwoofer out from that. 

Obviously, you wouldn’t go out and buy the AKG K1000 as your only or primary headphone. The sound quality is audiophile quality but vintage. It’s not going to compete across music genres with modern headphones. It’s a collectors item you can still get a lot of pleasure from with the right set-up and music genre.


----------



## dadracer2

clemster said:


> Just found this thread when searching around.  I have the lead design engineer, Chen, from Cayin, who designed the HA-300 on my WeChat.  So if there are intractable issues, can maybe refer him to you.  He's quite friendly and helped resolve some issues on my HA-300.
> 
> Cheers.


Can you please ask Chen did they move to Gold Lion 300Bs on the mark 2 HA300 for sound quality reasons or because the TJ Full Music 300B was difficult to get or indeed for both reasons? I have a mk1 and I am interested to know before I start buying a pair


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> Can you please ask Chen did they move to Gold Lion 300Bs on the mark 2 HA300 for sound quality reasons or because the TJ Full Music 300B was difficult to get or indeed for both reasons? I have a mk1 and I am interested to know before I start buying a pair


TJ Fullmusic is no longer in production,  therefore they "had to" switch for sustainability.


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> TJ Fullmusic is no longer in production,  therefore they "had to" switch for sustainability.


Ah ha! Thanks that makes sense. I wonder why they also swapped to Tung Sol for the 6SN7 was it for a similar reason?


----------



## Yggy

If I was Cayin I’d have a standard and a premium tubed version of the Mk 2 HA-300. I’d also sell a no tubes version for customers who have rolled the tubes on their Mk 1 and don’t need tubes. Market segmentation and up-selling premium tubes would benefit margins. Selling a standard tubed version only contributes to reviewers not appreciating how brilliant the HA-300 is. Also, the Mk 3 needs to have more power. Even better, sell a premium version of the power supply and rectifier tubes for both the Mk 1 and Mk 2.


----------



## dadracer2

Yggy said:


> If I was Cayin I’d have a standard and a premium tubed version of the Mk 2 HA-300. I’d also sell a no tubes version for customers who have rolled the tubes on their Mk 1 and don’t need tubes. Market segmentation and up-selling premium tubes would benefit margins. Selling a standard tubed version only contributes to reviewers not appreciating how brilliant the HA-300 is. Also, the Mk 3 needs to have more power. Even better, sell a premium version of the power supply and rectifier tubes for both the Mk 1 and Mk 2.


I don't believe they could get more power out of the 300B, unless they changed the circuit and made it possible to use the 300BXLS. The 22DE4 rectifier valves they use are NOS and as good a version as there is.


----------



## karlheinz147

Is it officially already for sale worldwide?

https://www.audioemotion.co.uk/cayin-ha-300-mk2---type-uk-33345-p.asp

I thought the production was delayed.


----------



## dadracer2

karlheinz147 said:


> Is it officially already for sale worldwide?
> 
> https://www.audioemotion.co.uk/cayin-ha-300-mk2---type-uk-33345-p.asp
> 
> I thought the production was delayed.


I think some dealers have been able to get a hold of the amps from the first small batch run. I know this specific dealer and he had placed an order a couple of months ago so I don't imagine he will have many or that they will be in stock for long!


----------



## Benny-x

Yggy said:


> I’ve heard Heinz listens to his K1000 with a subwoofer, I’ll have to give that a go. I have an old Denon AVC-A1HDA cinema amp, I might try the subwoofer out from that.


I have read that this has become a preferred way of listening to the new Raal ribbon headphones, due to their bass impact issues. And there are obviously some clear physical design parallels between those 2 headphone designs.


----------



## paradoxper

Benny-x said:


> I have read that this has become a preferred way of listening to the new Raal ribbon headphones, due to their bass impact issues. And there are obviously some clear physical design parallels between those 2 headphone designs.


They have excursion limits and it's the only applicable way to achieve any sense of real bass out of them.


----------



## Trickness

karlheinz147 said:


> Is it officially already for sale worldwide?
> 
> https://www.audioemotion.co.uk/cayin-ha-300-mk2---type-uk-33345-p.asp
> 
> I thought the production was delayed.


5100 pounds is like 6700 USD, guess this dealer thinks they can sell at a premium because they’re hard to get.


----------



## dadracer2

Trickness said:


> 5100 pounds is like 6700 USD, guess this dealer thinks they can sell at a premium because they’re hard to get.


I think you'd have to know their landed cost price in GBP to be able to state that. The UK prices include VAT whereas the US prices don't usually include tax so you are not comparing apples with apples. I have never found this dealer to artificially inflate his prices where there is low availability. If you look at their price for the N8ii for example it is well below the EU pricing. In any case your observation seems unfounded unless you know all the facts and are not just speculating. Given the mess in the UK that is called Brexit it would not surprise me if businesses are having to pay extra freight and import costs on some items.


----------



## ThanatosVI

dadracer2 said:


> I think you'd have to know their landed cost price in GBP to be able to state that. The UK prices include VAT whereas the US prices don't usually include tax so you are not comparing apples with apples. I have never found this dealer to artificially inflate his prices where there is low availability. If you look at their price for the N8ii for example it is well below the EU pricing. In any case your observation seems unfounded unless you know all the facts and are not just speculating. Given the mess in the UK that is called Brexit it would not surprise me if businesses are having to pay extra freight and import costs on some items.


If money is of no concern, the dealer currently offers a used Octave V16, which I thoroughly recommend


----------



## rmsanger

Once we find a US distributor with USD pricing please somebody post.  Also will the HA-300 Mk2 have pre-amp capabilities or only hp amp + speaker taps?


----------



## karlheinz147

rmsanger said:


> Once we find a US distributor with USD pricing please somebody post.  Also will the HA-300 Mk2 have pre-amp capabilities or only hp amp + speaker taps?


It'd be a dream come true if it had pre-amp capabilities, but I have the feeling it won't, unfortunately.


----------



## rmsanger (Mar 12, 2022)

karlheinz147 said:


> It'd be a dream come true if it had pre-amp capabilities, but I have the feeling it won't, unfortunately.


damn really wanted to inject you tube goodness in my SS chain without having to go dedicated tube pre.  I’ll have to look at the Feliks envy and modwright 300b offerings


----------



## dadracer2

ThanatosVI said:


> If money is of no concern, the dealer currently offers a used Octave V16, which I thoroughly recommend


----------



## dadracer2

rmsanger said:


> damn really wanted to inject you tube goodness in my SS chain without having to go dedicated tube pre.  I’ll have to look at the Feliks envy and modwright 300b offerings


The Feliks would be your better bet then as it has a proper preamp out facility. Both those amps have SS rectification which is not so quite ideal in a 300B in fairness.


----------



## Yggy

I swapped my Focal Utopias for Abyss Diana Phis with a cash adjustment today. Having been enjoying them with the Cayin HA-300. 

They have a very “etched” treble so 300b tubes make them less fatiguing. Bass is very good. They have less bass than Utopias but better quality. 

Bass and low end is not at the level of HE-6 for detail and texture but treble and clarity is a lot better. 

Definitely headphones for morning or critical listening rather than having on in the background while you work or relax. A bit like HE-6 in that respect. 

Diana Phis are very detailed. Not quite as detailed as Susvaras and HE1000SE but not far behind. 

They excel at female vocals and give Susvaras a run for their money. They etch treble like the HE-6 etches bass. Susvara vocals are smoother, Diana Phi vocals are more sculpted. 

They’re not quite as comfortable as Susvaras or Utopias but are far more comfortable than HE-6. HE-6 velour pads are harder and smaller inside than my ears so they start hurting a bit after an hour. I have to keep adjusting them after that to relieve the pressure on my ears. 

My FiiO M17 couldn’t drive the Diana Phis to their max, even plugged in. Utopias, in particular, and HE1000SE, are easier for the M17 to get the best from. 

I find driving ease doesn’t always follow spec. The HA-300 drives my HE-6 better than Susvaras but on paper HE-6, and in particular the 4S LP version I have, should be harder to drive than Susvaras.


----------



## dadracer2

You haven't said too much about mid range which is where the HA300 excels, how did you find soundstaging with the Dianas?


----------



## Yggy

I thought the mids were the weakest part of the Diana Phi sound but my ears have been spoiled with Susvaras and it’s probably a reflection on how strong the treble and bass is. 

The sound signature is V-shaped but in a good way, it’s not a s&@t sandwich!  I was really enjoying the listening to them earlier. 

The Diana Phi soundstage is meant to be bigger than the Susvara, I didn’t think there was much difference but I’ve been listening to AKG K1000 for the last week with the flaps as wide open as they go, the sound stage goes on forever. 

The perfect headphone would have Diana Phi treble, Susvara mids, HE-6 bass, and the K1000 sound stage. 

If you’re only going to get one pair of headphones, it has to be Susvara. They put everything together better than any other headphone I’ve listened to provided you don’t listen to rock and metal or power amp them. 

My problem with Susvaras is they were my only headphone for a long time. I was wowed by them initially because of how many things they did well, then started listening to other headphones that do one thing particularly well. 

After listening to the Diana Phi, I’m even more curious about what Abyss 1266 TCs sound like. From what I’ve read, the TCs don’t work as well with 300b tubes as some other TOTL headphones and I don’t think I could ever give up the tonal sweetness of 300b tubes. 

I had a Cayin HA-6A before the HA300 and much prefer the sound of 300b tubes to the KT88 and EL34 tubes you could switch between in the HA-6A.


----------



## dadracer2

Yggy said:


> I thought the mids were the weakest part of the Diana Phi sound but my ears have been spoiled with Susvaras and it’s probably a reflection on how strong the treble and bass is.
> 
> The sound signature is V-shaped but in a good way, it’s not a s&@t sandwich!  I was really enjoying the listening to them earlier.
> 
> ...


I haven't heard the Diana (or the 1266) in any of their versions which is a bit of an omission. The Susvara was the first planar which I really liked. I had listened to quite a few different HFM models including the Shangri La but the Susvara I thought were the best in their whole range.

In fact I am a big fan of the HD800S though and although the Susvara can beat it at a number of things it doesn't do treble or imaging like the HD800S at least to my preference.

I think you are correct about the 300B as I have had quite a few valve amps over the years but I had never heard anything like the combination of HD800S and the 300B. It honestly reminded me of the first time I heard an electrostatic headphone and gave me a bit of a shock with headphones I thought I knew really well.   

I am currently mulling over what to do about a new set of 6SN7 valves and every time I think I have made the right choice I see an article that says they are rubbish and what you need is this! So a work in progress...


----------



## karlheinz147

Yggy said:


> After listening to the Diana Phi, I’m even more curious about what Abyss 1266 TCs sound like. From what I’ve read, the TCs don’t work as well with 300b tubes as some other TOTL headphones and I don’t think I could ever give up the tonal sweetness of 300b tubes.


What exactly have you read about the 1266 TC not working well with 300b tubes?


----------



## Yggy

karlheinz147 said:


> What exactly have you read about the 1266 TC not working well with 300b tubes?


Posts 439 and 440 here. AndyKong didn’t think the TC drivers worked with 300b tubes. 

“I think the Abyss AB-1266 + HA-300 is more a synergy issue between 300B power tube and the house sound of 1266, and the latest Phi TC just put things slightly more difficult then the previous version. To me, the glorious part of 300B power tube is intimating mid-range, outstanding microdynamic, extremely rich harmonic and holographic presentation. The headphone implementation of 300B placed these beautiful tonal characteristic in full-scale dynamic and FR extension context, something uneasy to obtain from speaker application. Unfortunately, I still find the 300B lacking if you are after rumbling bass and wide soundstage in a magnificent presentation.”

I’ve always found AndyKong’s views to be spot on. I’m sure the Abyss 1266 and HA-300 sound great, but it’s probably the case of 10/10 and a 10/10 kit combining to make an 18/20 combination whereas in our hobby we’re all looking to combine a 8/10 and 9/10 to make a 19/20 combination. 

300b bass is fine from my perspective. I prefer quality over quantity. I get why it might not be enough for some ears though, it’s elegant, sweet, beautiful, and refined. 

If I had an Abyss 1266 TC I’d probably want to listen to it on a solid state amp like the Flux Volot, Niimbus 4/5, or Formula S. 

I have Empire Ear Legend Evo IEMs. As an experiment, I bought a 4.4mm to XLR adapter and listened to them on the HA-300. There was none of the usual 300b tube sound improvement. They sound as good or better on my FiiO M17 DAP.


----------



## Yggy

dadracer2 said:


> In fact I am a big fan of the HD800S though and although the Susvara can beat it at a number of things it doesn't do treble or imaging like the HD800S at least to my preference.
> 
> I think you are correct about the 300B as I have had quite a few valve amps over the years but I had never heard anything like the combination of HD800S and the 300B. It honestly reminded me of the first time I heard an electrostatic headphone and gave me a bit of a shock with headphones I thought I knew really well.



I picked up a very reasonably priced used HD-800s missing its stock 6.35mm cable on eBay yesterday so will hopefully have it to compare against my AKG K1000 this weekend. 

I’ve read a lot of positive comments about the HD-800s and Cayin HA-300.

Do you ever use the HD-800s for movies or gaming? I read it’s meant to be good for dialogue because of the treble quality and clarity.

My first decent headphones were HD-650s and I used them for movies only with a 5m Stefan Audio cable that cost more than the headphones and a Graham Slee Solo headphone amp. They were superb.


----------



## dadracer2

Yggy said:


> I picked up a very reasonably priced used HD-800s missing its stock 6.35mm cable on eBay yesterday so will hopefully have it to compare against my AKG K1000 this weekend.
> 
> I’ve read a lot of positive comments about the HD-800s and Cayin HA-300.
> 
> ...


I think the HA300 is the best pairing I’ve heard with the HD800S. I’d be interested to hear your comparison with the K1000.
No not for movies I’ve got a home cinema system which is very basic but ideal with blockbuster stuff. I don’t game at all.


----------



## Yggy

You may have seen this for sale (not mine) but just in case. 

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/cayin-ca-300.22189/


----------



## Yggy

I’m investigating replacing the Mundorf coupling capacitors in my HA-300 to improve its performance with my Susvaras. 

I’ve been told I should consider V-Cap or Jupiters because they may sound as good as the Duelunds llamaluv used without so many hours of burn-in. 

Does anybody know anybody in the UK who could switch out the Mondorf stock coupling capacitors? 

Has anybody else done this? Llamaluv said after, I think 300 hours, his Abyss 1266 sounded much than before. I’d like to avoid so many hours of burn in to conserve my premium tubes but I have the stock tubes to switch back to if needs be. 

Llamaluv you fitted 0.22uF 630VDC Duelunds to replace the 0.22uF 700VDC Mundorfs. I was thinking of 0.22uF 600VDC V-Cap CuTF capacitors.

http://www.v-cap.com/cutf-capacitors.php

Is there anything better I could fit and should I be going with 600VDC? The alternative is 300VDC or 1200VDC. 

AndyKong, have you got a view on this upgrade? Have you heard an HA-300 that’s had it or heard any feedback from enthusiast’s who’ve done it? I’m assuming you’d need Susvaras or Abyss 1266 for it to be worthwhile?


----------



## dadracer2

Yggy said:


> I’m investigating replacing the Mundorf coupling capacitors in my HA-300 to improve its performance with my Susvaras.
> 
> I’ve been told I should consider V-Cap or Jupiters because they may sound as good as the Duelunds llamaluv used without so many hours of burn-in.
> 
> ...


Hi Fi Collective seem to have a range of Mundorfs. They are also experienced in folks building diy amps so might be able to help?

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/m_cap.html


----------



## Yggy

Thanks. Close enough for a drop off and pick up. Will give them a call tomorrow.


----------



## dadracer2

Yggy said:


> Thanks. Close enough for a drop off and pick up. Will give them a call tomorrow.


I had been looking through their site earlier today for upgrade valves. Have you swapped out yours and if so what did you end up with?


----------



## Yggy

dadracer2 said:


> I had been looking through their site earlier today for upgrade valves. Have you swapped out yours and if so what did you end up with?


I have a pair of Western Electric WE300b tubes. I think it has to be either Western Electric or Takatsuki. I chose WE300b for the 5 year warranty. They cost USD 1,500. 

I thought about PS Vane Acme 300b to save some money but they were over half the price of the WE300b with only a 1 year warranty so for peace of mind, Western Wlectric new production is hard to beat. 

The choice of 6SN7 was harder. I started looking for NOS Melz 1578 but there was a lot of talk about fakes and I couldn’t find anything suitable. I ended up going for NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases from Audio Antiquary in Italy. They cost 1,000 Euros. 

I bought a pair of quad matched General Electric 22DE4 rectifier tubes from an eBay seller in Brazil for about USD 100. 

The advice I read was to upgrade the 6SN7 tubes first so that’s what I. The 6SN7W metal bases and WE300 made a very noticeable improvement to sound quality. I couldn’t detect any real change with the GE 22DE4 rectifier tubes, it was definitely as good as the stock 22DE4 tubes so I left them in.  

I’ve never swapped the stock tubes back in so it’s not a case of the rolled tubes being better for some music genres or sonic preferences like different TOTL headphones. The rolled tubes are better in every way than the stock tubes. More detail, more holographic, more refinement, more 300b sweetness. 

I read somewhere that the HA-300 scaled well with premium 6SN7 and 300b tubes and that was so true. The improvement wasn’t like a better cable, it was like getting a better amp, twice. That’s why I tell people to buy a used MK1 HA-300 and spend what you save on the best possible tubes.


----------



## dadracer2

Yggy said:


> I have a pair of Western Electric WE300b tubes. I think it has to be either Western Electric or Takatsuki. I chose WE300b for the 5 year warranty. They cost USD 1,500.
> 
> I thought about PS Vane Acme 300b to save some money but they were over half the price of the WE300b with only a 1 year warranty so for peace of mind, Western Wlectric new production is hard to beat.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this and I will check out these options. Like you the recommendations have been start with the 6SN7 as it is earlier in the signal path so will be likely to make the biggest difference. So far I am most tempted by the PSVANE CV181 mkii. I am a bit uncertain/confused/freaked by the myriad NOS valves so I will keep looking and at your suggestions. The 300b that I am quite drawn to is the new(ish) Audio Note 4300E which is truly a 300b and I'm uncertain why it has this designation. I believe they are made for AN by PSVANE to their design. 

Cheers


----------



## llamaluv (Mar 17, 2022)

Yggy said:


> I’m investigating replacing the Mundorf coupling capacitors in my HA-300 to improve its performance with my Susvaras.
> 
> I’ve been told I should consider V-Cap or Jupiters because they may sound as good as the Duelunds llamaluv used without so many hours of burn-in.
> 
> ...



Argh, I just remembered that I originally got a pair of Jupiter caps to put in my HA300, but after a while I got distracted and went for the Duelunds instead, and so they're still completely unused. Anyway, I just rifled through my stuff, and I can't find them now. For reference, this is what I got -- 0.33uF/600VDC, from PartsConnexion

But yea, I'm still loving my caps upgrade (as well as the Tak's I got now a little while ago). The HA-300 is still my heavily favored amp these days. Used with the TC and the Elite.

For what it's worth, on the Takatsukis, compared to my PSVane ACMEs, it was not a "home run", but ultimately a "sidegrade". They both do different things better. So I feel compelled to keep both, and swap between the two on occasion. I think I like the Takasukis more with the the TC because they're "faster", which I think plays to the TC's strengths. But the PSVane ACMEs are just really beautifully lush and deep (and a little less mid-forward), and go better with the Elite, which is a shade mid-forward to me already...



dadracer2 said:


> Hi Fi Collective seem to have a range of Mundorfs. They are also experienced in folks building diy amps so might be able to help?
> 
> https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/m_cap.html



Nice, that's where I got my Duelunds (now two years ago), and had them shipped to the U.S.


----------



## Yggy

Why did you go for 0.33 uF 600 VDC rather than 0.22 uF 600 VDC Jupiters? The Mundorfs in the HA-300 are 0.22 uF 600 VDC. 

(I know nothing about these specs by the way! 

https://www.partsconnexion.com/JUPITER-78883.html


----------



## Yggy

My HD-800s arrived. Have been testing with a Forza Noir Hybrid HPC XLR cable and the HA-300. The HA-300 drives it very easily. I was at 8:00 to 9:00 on the low impedance setting. Unlike the Utopia, which is equally easy to drive, it doesn’t seem to benefit from higher impedance settings. 

I started by listening to the sort of one instrument classical music the AKG 1000 excels at so a couple of 24 bit FLAC Yo-Yo Ma albums, Yo-Yo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone and Six Evolutions: Bach Cello Suites. 

Within a minute of listening I realised I was comparing apples with oranges. The HD-800S renders a single instrument brilliantly but it’s a standard headphone. The sound stage is wider than the Susvara and Diana Phi, but it’s still a headphone. The K1000 is an ear-speaker and the sound stage is much wider with the flaps open as far as they go which is how I do most of my listening. 

The HD-800S can do a lot of what the Susvara and Diana Phi can do for a lot less money but the K1000 can’t. People say the HD-800S doesn’t have enough bass but the K1000 has almost no bass. The HD-800S has a bit less bass than the Susvara but the quality of the bass is very good. I listened to Massive Attack’s Angel, Muse’s Madness, and Bjork’s Hunter, my usual bass test tracks and the HD-800S was very good although it’s quality over quantity. 

I agree that the HD-800S pairs very well with the HA-300. It tames the treble and smooths what might be an overly analytical sound. I still find the treble too fatiguing to listen to something like Aerosmith’s Cryin’ or Crazy at 24 Bit and 192.0 kHz. None of my headphones do justice to 80s pop rock like Queen, Aerosmith, and Def Leppard. 

I sometimes hear a bit of grunge with the HD800-S and HA-300. I had this issue with the Utopia too. Occasionally, I have to lift the tube cage off the HA-300 and gently touch the tubes, it seems to clear the static that too easy-to-drive headphones are more suspect to relaying through the HA-300. 

The HD-800S does high resolution modern pop nearly as well as Susvaras and Diana Phi. It’s detailed, resolving, and quick, so when you add in some very nice bass quality you’re getting a lot of bang for your buck. It wipes the floor with other headphones I’ve listened to in this price range, e.g. LCD3, if you value detail, clarity, and refinement. 

For classical music, it’s 50/50 with the Susvara, the Susvaras’s treble is smoother but the HD-800s is crisper. I slightly prefer the HD-800s which is incredible considering the price differential. The HD-800s is brilliant value for money if you mainly listen to classical, jazz, acoustic, and light modern pop. 

The K1000 is still untouchable for classical music, in particular single instrument. It can also do bass-light older pop provided the treble is pulled back a bit in the recording. For example, Chicago’s If You Leave Me Now sounds amazing, the K1000 really digs out and projects the vocal, better than I’ve ever heard it before. 

I think I’m more likely to keep the K1000 in the long run than the HD-800s because of its completely different sound and phenomenal sound stage with classical music rather than because it’s better than the HD-800s. The HD-800s is a much better all-round headphone but it doesn’t wow me like the AKG K1000.


----------



## dadracer2

Yggy said:


> My HD-800s arrived. Have been testing with a Forza Noir Hybrid HPC XLR cable and the HA-300. The HA-300 drives it very easily. I was at 8:00 to 9:00 on the low impedance setting. Unlike the Utopia, which is equally easy to drive, it doesn’t seem to benefit from higher impedance settings.
> 
> I started by listening to the sort of one instrument classical music the AKG 1000 excels at so a couple of 24 bit FLAC Yo-Yo Ma albums, Yo-Yo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone and Six Evolutions: Bach Cello Suites.
> 
> ...


That's a most fascinating comparison and makes me think I should try and get a listen to those Mysphere headphones as I think they are the ex AKG engineers/designers of the K1000. 

In fact I agree with much of what you have said especially in regard to the HD800S and HA300 pairing, and I will be sticking with the HD800S for headphone purposes. I can get the full speaker sound from the HA300 with my speakers. I get it though if you don't have/want speakers that the K1000 offers both options effectively. 

Meantime I must contact my local dealer and set up a demo of the Mysphere!!!


----------



## rmsanger

dadracer2 said:


> That's a most fascinating comparison and makes me think I should try and get a listen to those Mysphere headphones as I think they are the ex AKG engineers/designers of the K1000.
> 
> In fact I agree with much of what you have said especially in regard to the HD800S and HA300 pairing, and I will be sticking with the HD800S for headphone purposes. I can get the full speaker sound from the HA300 with my speakers. I get it though if you don't have/want speakers that the K1000 offers both options effectively.
> 
> Meantime I must contact my local dealer and set up a demo of the Mysphere!!!



Here is a fantastic writeup on the Mysphere from my guy Mon... He's one of the most credible posters/mods on a few forums I'm on.  He even has a synergy section and comments on the HA-300 as well.

https://www.sonusapparatus.com/2022/01/mysphere-3-1-3-2-impressions/


----------



## dadracer2

rmsanger said:


> Here is a fantastic writeup on the Mysphere from my guy Mon... He's one of the most credible posters/mods on a few forums I'm on.  He even has a synergy section and comments on the HA-300 as well.
> 
> https://www.sonusapparatus.com/2022/01/mysphere-3-1-3-2-impressions/


Thanks mate.


----------



## llamaluv

Yggy said:


> Why did you go for 0.33 uF 600 VDC rather than 0.22 uF 600 VDC Jupiters? The Mundorfs in the HA-300 are 0.22 uF 600 VDC.
> 
> (I know nothing about these specs by the way!
> 
> https://www.partsconnexion.com/JUPITER-78883.html



Huh, good question. I think at the time that was all I could find? I would also assume that 0.22 uF would be preferable, hehe.


----------



## Yggy

dadracer2 said:


> That's a most fascinating comparison and makes me think I should try and get a listen to those Mysphere headphones as I think they are the ex AKG engineers/designers of the K1000.


Yes, good call. The guy who designed the K1000, Heinz Renner, also designed the MySphere. The reviews say it improves on the K1000 sound. 

My only reservation is the K1000 has classic status so in theory it might depreciate less and could even appreciate in value over time if you buy a nice one and look after it. 

The MySphere could be expensive to buy new or nearly new and resell because it’s regarded as a novelty rather than a classic. Even though it may be more flexible in terms of listening. 

We don’t enjoy this hobby to make money though!  Otherwise, there would be a lot of disappointed Head-fiers. I’m always fine with losing money as long as I’ve enjoyed myself and learned something.


----------



## Yggy

I’ve been listening to the HD-800s with my FiiO M17 DAP this afternoon. Incredible synergy. The M17 is neutral but can be a tad soft and bass heavy so the more analytical bass light HD-800s is a match made in heaven. 

The HE-1000SE is my favourite open back with the M17 but it sounds better plugged into an IFI Elite iPower 12v PSU upgrade. 

The HD-800s sounds as good without the M17 being plugged into a DC power supply, it just needs a bit more volume. The M17 is a brick and will be laughed at in 5 years but it’s portable enough and any TOTL headphone sounds so much better than any IEM. If you have a HD-800s, please give it a try with the FiiO M17, you’ll love it. 

I’m using the Forza Audio Noir Hybrid HPC cable with a Neutrik XLR to 4.4mm adapter. I listen to nearly all my headphones. It’s always a bit smoother, warmer, and bass heavy than a stock cable for not much money by premium cable standards. Matt at Forza does a great job,


----------



## Yggy

llamaluv said:


> Huh, good question. I think at the time that was all I could find? I would also assume that 0.22 uF would be preferable, hehe.


I think so but I have no idea why!  Hopefully, Hifi Collective can explain it to me.


----------



## Yggy

If you’re buying Burson and IFI all-in-ones and don’t have Abyss 1266 or Susvara headphones, save yourself some space and get the FiiO M17 DAP. It’s a breakthrough product with over the ear headphones. Smooth, high fidelity desktop quality sound in the form factor of 3 iPhones Maxes glued together!


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> AndyKong, the AKG K1000 with hardwired Stefan Audio cable upgrade, HA-300, and WE300b tubes is more than “very OK”!
> 
> It’s to classical music and vocals what the HE-6 is to rap, R&B, and EDM. As you say, the soundstage is in front of you, the sound is delicate, light, detailed, sweet, and holographic.
> 
> ...



I have heard better from K11000 with more powerful speaker amplifier, that's why I said they are OK, from the best of K21000 perspective.  However, we limit our choice to headphone amplifier only and excluded speaker amplifier combination, K1000 with HA-300 sounds good and surprised me.     

I am a bit skeptical about adding a subwoofer to an headphone system, not that I question the sonic performance, but you need a dedicated room to hosue such a system otherwise it'll disturb your family.  If I have a dedicated room for my audio expereince, I'll go for speakers.   

How could something manufactured in the 1990s be relevant or listenable in 2022?  Well, a lot of modern headphones takes a different approach to sound tuning.  If you enjoy K1000 and HE6, maybe you can check out another classic headphone from Sennheiser: the 600ohm version HD540/HD250/HD540Gold.   They are exceptionally good with 300B headphone amplifiuer like HA-300.  They ae not expensive by today standard, but finding a pair in decent condition is not easy.


----------



## Andykong (Mar 19, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> Ah ha! Thanks that makes sense. I wonder why they also swapped to Tung Sol for the 6SN7 was it for a similar reason?



There are two answer to this question.

(1) When TJ Full Music 300B was discontinued, we start to search for replacement options, Gold Lion 300Bs and Tung Sol was selected as a pair to deliver the audio performance and signature we set for HA-300.

(2) Changing stock tube is a regular exercise in tube amplifer manufcturing, we need to adjust our supply chain to remain efficiency in our operation, and take advantage of the lastest devleopment and price adjustment offered by our suppliers.

Product development is an ongoing process and manufacturing management is scientific and complicated, and the decision will need to be supported by engineering and production, and they probably will focus as different perspective.   In other word, we most decision were make under a mixed of reasons.


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> There are two answer to this question.
> 
> (1) When TJ Full Music 300B was discontinued, we start to search for replacement options, Gold Lion 300Bs and Tung Sol was selected as a pair to deliver the audio performance and signature we set for HA-300.
> 
> ...


Thanks Andy, that seems entirely fair and reasonable.


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> If I was Cayin I’d have a standard and a premium tubed version of the Mk 2 HA-300. I’d also sell a no tubes version for customers who have rolled the tubes on their Mk 1 and don’t need tubes. Market segmentation and up-selling premium tubes would benefit margins. Selling a standard tubed version only contributes to reviewers not appreciating how brilliant the HA-300 is. Also, the Mk 3 needs to have more power. Even better, sell a premium version of the power supply and rectifier tubes for both the Mk 1 and Mk 2.





dadracer2 said:


> I don't believe they could get more power out of the 300B, unless they changed the circuit and made it possible to use the 300BXLS. The 22DE4 rectifier valves they use are NOS and as good a version as there is.



Yes, when we used 300B as power tube in a SETA configuration, there isn't much we can do to increase the power.  

If we are usihng Push-pull design, we can increase output power by doubling the number of Power tube, but push-pull is not an ideal circuit design for Direct Heat Triode tube, that leave parallel single-end as the only viable choice.  Although more power might improve the pairing with several really demanding headphones, but it might also introduce adverse effect to dozens of high sensitivey headphone.

Cayin adopt a very different attitude (culture?) towards tube rolling.  We precieve tube rolling as 
(1) a final touch to enhance the synergy between you amplifier and your speaker/headphone
(2) a fun game to explore changes in sound signature and performance through mix and match of different driver and power tubes
(3) an upgrade option to enhance the performance of your amplifier

(1) and (2) cannot be fulfilled by pre-packaged "premium" tube options.  (3) is partially fulfilled if we ignor personal preference.   

Last but not least, Cayin is located in China, the logistic cost to send premium tube from China to US or Europe is extremely high, and in case of any tube failure during mailing, replace time and cost will be hefty and difficult to manage, so we always recommend our users to purchage upgarde tube from their local supplier.


----------



## Andykong

karlheinz147 said:


> It'd be a dream come true if it had pre-amp capabilities, but I have the feeling it won't, unfortunately.



Unfortunately, HA-300MK2 does not have pre-amp ouptut.


----------



## helljudgement

Yggy said:


> My HD-800s arrived. Have been testing with a Forza Noir Hybrid HPC XLR cable and the HA-300. The HA-300 drives it very easily. I was at 8:00 to 9:00 on the low impedance setting. Unlike the Utopia, which is equally easy to drive, it doesn’t seem to benefit from higher impedance settings.
> 
> I started by listening to the sort of one instrument classical music the AKG 1000 excels at so a couple of 24 bit FLAC Yo-Yo Ma albums, Yo-Yo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone and Six Evolutions: Bach Cello Suites.
> 
> ...


Great comparison.

The hd800 remains one of the most resolving and technically capable headphone released to date and I stand by that. It may not have the bass heft or weight that planars are able to portray but all the details are there in spades. It is also one of the most frustrating headphone to own for me mainly due to it's tuning. There have been multiple times I've contemplated selling but it still remains in my collection after a decade making it the oldest gear I currently own. Pairing it with tubes certainly makes sense and I also found it sound best with 300b tubes so I'm glad I stuck with it. It is a technical marvel.


----------



## Yggy

Andykong said:


> If you enjoy K1000 and HE6, maybe you can check out another classic headphone from Sennheiser: the 600ohm version HD540/HD250/HD540Gold. They are exceptionally good with 300B headphone amplifiuer like HA-300. They ae not expensive by today standard, but finding a pair in decent condition is not easy.


I’ve taken your advice AK and ordered a pair of Sennheiser HD-540 Reference 600 ohms. 199 Euros plus 50 Euros postage to the UK on eBay Germany.

I’ve copied some photos below. They were described as being in very good condition, rarely used, with original pads. 

There is a new old stock pair of HD-250 Linear 2 300 ohm on eBay UK for GBP 300.


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> I’ve taken your advice AK and ordered a pair of Sennheiser HD-540 Reference 600 ohms. 199 Euros plus 50 Euros postage to the UK on eBay Germany.
> 
> I’ve copied some photos below. They were described as being in very good condition, rarely used, with original pads.
> 
> There is a new old stock pair of HD-250 Linear 2 300 ohm on eBay UK for GBP 300.



Wow, that's a quick move.  Let's see whether you like this can as I predicted.  

You are very smart, earpad pay a very important role with these "ancient" headphones.

There is a *600ohm HD250 *closed back on eBay, but you need to find a new earpad for this one.  Let's see whether you like the HD540 before we try other options.  I have collected 600ohm version of HD540Gold, HD540 and HD250. I happen to like the HD250 more then the other two.


----------



## Yggy

The HD-250 was Graham Slee’s favourite headphone, I used to have his Solo Headphone Amp about 15-20 years ago. 

I bought my first pair of closed back headphones. Bit of a curve ball, Fostex TH900 Mk2. I got a good used deal with a 4 pin XLR cable and stand included. 

I listen to a lot of EDM, rap, and R&B so the TH900 Mk2 should be a fun listen. I figure the HA-300 should tame the brighter treble and reel in some of the over-the-top bass. 

The red Urushi lacquer Fostex use is stunning. I’ve attached a photo.


----------



## horatiu

Yggy said:


> The HD-250 was Graham Slee’s favourite headphone, I used to have his Solo Headphone Amp about 15-20 years ago.
> 
> I bought my first pair of closed back headphones. Bit of a curve ball, Fostex TH900 Mk2. I got a good used deal with a 4 pin XLR cable and stand included.
> 
> ...


Graham Slee's Solo headamp got me into this game. Great amp, sweet sound.


----------



## Yggy

My Fostex TH900 Mk2 arrived. It’s a very nice headphone if you listen to bass heavy pop, rap, and rock.

The sound signature is extremely V-shaped, the bass is heavy, treble has bite. Detail and resolution doesn’t match the Susvara, Diana Phi, or HD800s but that can be a blessing with lower quality recordings.

I don’t listen to 80s music on my TOTL headphones, it seems like a waste, a bit like watching Laurel & Hardy on an 8k display. But with the Fostex, Queen, Aerosmith and Def Leppard sound very good. The TH900 Mk2 puts meat on the bones of older recordings and makes the sound thicker and less tinny.

You still get a wow factor with well produced modern pop. For example, Lorde’s Pure Heroine in 24 Bit 192 kHz FLAC is pop ear candy, it’s just slightly more 2D and less detailed than on headphones costing two or three times as much.

The V-shaped sound signature excels at rap. It doesn’t match the HE-6 for bass quality but the energetic treble is the Ying to the Yang of thumping bass. Tracks with a sharper edge to the beat can be a bit fatiguing, even with 300b tubes. Peppy treble and powerful bass in combination works 9 times out of 10. 

Classical music is better than I expected it to be given the bass head reputation of the Fostex but you’d still be better off with the HD-800s if that’s what you listen to. The Fostex XLR upgrade cable sounds fine but above the Y splitter, it’s irritatingly microphonic, so not good for fidgeters. 

Comfort is very good. It’s not as comfortable as the heavier Susvara, HE1000SE, and Utopia. It has the edge over the HD-800s though and that’s a fairly comfortable headphone, I’m not keen on the edges of the oversized cups of the HD-800s pressing on my neck below my ears. 

I’d describe the TH900 Mk2 as a more mid-fi sounding Diana Phi on steroids. It’s the most fun headphone I’ve listened to and pairs well with the HA-300. Not for purists, but Dr Dre would love it.


----------



## Yggy

Andykong said:


> Wow, that's a quick move.  Let's see whether you like this can as I predicted.
> 
> You are very smart, earpad pay a very important role with these "ancient" headphones.



They arrived this afternoon. Very nice sound. Wonderful clarity, treble is clear with no harshness, no grunge from the HA-300. They sound a bit like the AKG K1000 but more forceful. 

The pads smell like my local snooker club. I think it’s 30-40 year old tobacco smoke ingrained in the pad fabric. Condition is very good and comfort is stellar. They feel half the weight of modern headphones. Amazing performance for the price. 

Thank you for the recommendation. Are there any pads currently available that get anywhere near the originals for sound quality?


----------



## Palyodgree

My very first headphone system were the Fostex TH900 mk2 , shortly after I changed the cups , pads and some internal damping rings that came as a package from a Fostex enthusiast. My memory this change made a significant overall difference specifically taming the treble region and extending the sub base a great example off the top of my head was listening to Chesky fabulous recording of Mozart’s Ave Verum ,…


----------



## Yggy

That sounds like the Lawton Tune Up package. 

https://www.lawtonaudio.com/fostextune-up.html


----------



## Palyodgree

Yggy said:


> That sounds like the Lawton Tune Up package.
> 
> https://www.lawtonaudio.com/fostextune-up.html


For the life of me I couldn’t remember his name , yes Lawton tune up kits ….


----------



## Andykong (Mar 23, 2022)

Yggy said:


> They arrived this afternoon. Very nice sound. Wonderful clarity, treble is clear with no harshness, no grunge from the HA-300. They sound a bit like the AKG K1000 but more forceful.
> 
> The pads smell like my local snooker club. I think it’s 30-40 year old tobacco smoke ingrained in the pad fabric. Condition is very good and comfort is stellar. They feel half the weight of modern headphones. Amazing performance for the price.
> 
> Thank you for the recommendation. Are there any pads currently available that get anywhere near the originals for sound quality?



That's the magic of old Sennheiser.  When we praise the HD600 and HD650 as evergreen tree in headphone hobby, the HD250/HD540/HD540G is an even bigger miracle. All three models use the same driver, the HD540G will match driver during production, the other two won't, but since they have been used for decade, so driver matching don't really matter already.   I spend a year to track down a complete set of 300ohm and 600 ohm of all three models, the biggest bottleneck of this game is the earpad.  You can try to remove the odd, look for options to treat smelly quilts.  I soaked the pad in dilute soap water, hand clean it gently and place it at well ventilated area to dry it slowly (don't expose to sunlight). 

Unfortunately, there is no direct replacement earpad for HD540 and HD540G. I have tried 5-6 different replacement earpad, they just didn't sound the same.  The nearest I find was REVOX RH3100L (for DT990/DT880)





You should also look for replacement of white cotton ring and black cotton pad, the original Sennheiser replacement should still be available.


----------



## Yggy

Thank you for those photos AK. That’s very helpful. I spoke to the HD-540 eBay seller about the pads and he’s sending me a pair of NOS OEM HD-430 pleather pads. There was another pair on the Sennheiser Amazon UK store so I bought those for spare. 

I did some research on pads and found a very helpful post on HD-540 pad replacement by myusernameislove (post 2451). He/she said the HD-430 pad as a HD-540 replacement was fine apart from for bass quantity which I can live with. If I want bass, I’ll listen to my Fostex TH900 Mk2 or Legend Evo IEMs. With the HD-540, my priority is clarity, treble quality, and neutrality which the K1000 excels at.  

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wow-sennheiser-hd-540-reference-are-so-good.670255/page-164

I will try what you suggested with the fabric pads and carefully wash and dry them and what myusernameislove suggests and unstitch them, replace the foam with a Hifiman pad, and restitch them. 

How are the pads attached to a stock HD-540? When I put my finger inside and underneath the pad, they feel like they are glued on.


----------



## steve468

So I've just joined the club! I've had two nights with it, and so far, of course, I'm loving it. The combination of rich, warm and detailed is really something else.

As a insatiable tube roller, I unfortunately already have the itch to try a few things (you can see Ken-Rads in there warming up - haven't even listened to them yet). The cost of the tubes definitely makes having a wide varieties of combos available a bit too rich for my blood, but does anyone have any favourite tube rolls they'd be willing to share? 

My favourite 6sn7 variant in the Crack was a 6f8g, has anyone tried a pair of those? Are they even usable? I did note they weren't listed in the variants section of the manual, but as far as I know the 6f8g is a drop in replacement (w/ adapter) for the 6sn7.

And man, this thing photographs well!


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> Thank you for those photos AK. That’s very helpful. I spoke to the HD-540 eBay seller about the pads and he’s sending me a pair of NOS OEM HD-430 pleather pads. There was another pair on the Sennheiser Amazon UK store so I bought those for spare.
> 
> I did some research on pads and found a very helpful post on HD-540 pad replacement by myusernameislove (post 2451). He/she said the HD-430 pad as a HD-540 replacement was fine apart from for bass quantity which I can live with. If I want bass, I’ll listen to my Fostex TH900 Mk2 or Legend Evo IEMs. With the HD-540, my priority is clarity, treble quality, and neutrality which the K1000 excels at.
> 
> ...



Not a lot of headphone amplifier are optimised for 600ohm loading, when Beyer decided to give up 600ohm option on their T1, that pretty much significant the end of 600 ohme headphone for consumer market.  The newer amplifier will optimised for headphone with lower impedance instead, that's what I suggest you to focus at 600 Ohms versoin of these headphone. 

You can pull it out gently.   There is a plastic ring that fix the earpad to the earcup.  The first photo below shows the plastic ring on the earpad, and the second photo shows the plastic ring on the earcup.  Even when the earpad is complete damaged, you need to keep this plastic ring. Replacement earpad won't come with this plastic ring, so ou need to use this plastic ring to fit the HD430 earpad to your HD540.  I have tried HS430 earpad as well, and I decided to use it for HS250 instead of HD540.


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## Andykong (Mar 26, 2022)

*Cayin debuts HA-300MK2 at CanJam Singapore 2022 (2-3 April 2022)*

Our Singapore partner *Zeppelin* will present our flagship DHT vacuum tube amplifier to the Personal Audio community at this important event.  The incredible N8ii DAP will also be demonstrated, together with our complete Personal Audio product line.  Cayin booth is located at Booth B7-B8, Level 1, Pacific Ballroom of Pan Pacific Singapore at Marina Square.

The Announcement video is available *HERE*.
https://www.facebook.com/zeppelinandco/videos/320166896788379/

We shall provide a detail explanation with full specfication of the HA-300MK2 here on 31st March 2022 evening, plase stay tuned.


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## normie610

Andykong said:


> *Cayin debuts HA-300MK2 at CanJam Singapore 2022 (2-3 April 2022)*
> 
> Our Singapore partner *Zeppplie *will present our flagship DHT vacuum tube amplifier to the Personal Audio community at this important event.  The incredible N8ii DAP will also be demonstrated, together with our complete Personal Audio product line.  Cayin booth is located at Booth B7-B8, Level 1, Pacific Ballroom of Pan Pacific Singapore at Marina Square.
> 
> ...


It’s really beautiful in black 😍


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## Yggy

Did my research on coupling capacitors and ordered a matched pair of V-Cap CuTF 0.22uf 600VDC from HifiCollective in the UK for 300 GBP. 

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/content/cutf-090-022uf-600vdc-v-cap-cutf-capacitors-matched-pair

Availability seems to be more problematic with Duelund. The Cast DC copper 0.22uf 630VDC was a 6 month wait at HifiCollective and wasn’t stocked by PartsConnexion. 

The Cast DC silver version was only in stock at PartsConnexion and would have cost about 800 GBP with import taxes in the UK. 

There is a Cast DC copper pair on eBay China but the seller has no feedback and delivery was 3-4 months. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Duelund-...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Might be worth waiting for or could be a fake. Hard to tell. Decided not to take the risk. 

Apparently, Frederick Duelund made this rectangular pair himself. Could be amazing and better than current production but I wasn’t willing to take the risk on this either. The higher 0.47uf would be fine as far as I could tell, the VDC is the key metric to match at 600-700. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-Fre...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

I understand V-Caps sound better out of the box than Duelunds and the upgrade benefit is skewed slightly more towards clarity than musicality. 

https://www.isakusphere.com/audio-hifi/audio-reviews/capacitor-review/


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## Yggy

I took the fabric pads off my Sennheiser HD-540 Reference headphones, removed the disintegrated foam inserts, cleaned the headphones and cable with lens wipes, washed the fabric pads in warm water with soap powder, rinsed them, dried them on the HA-300’s transformers, and clicked them back in with new HD-430 foam inserts. 

They look and smell as good as they sound now. The neutrality, clarity, and detail is stunning. Comfort is superb because they are so light. Completely different sound signature to modern TOTL headphones. Thinner, fresher, lighter bass, and heavenly treble. Literally, a breath of fresh air after the clean-up.


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## Whitigir (Mar 27, 2022)

Interesting amplifier ! Do we have the specs for the Input and output transformers disclosed


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## 111MilesToGo

Whitigir said:


> Interesting amplifier !


Very interesting indeed. Looks like it could be ”my dream“ for my high-impedance headphones, the Sennheiser HD 800 S and the Beyerdynamic T1.2. One can dream …


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## dadracer2

111MilesToGo said:


> Very interesting indeed. Looks like it could be ”my dream“ for my high-impedance headphones, the Sennheiser HD 800 S and the Beyerdynamic T1.2. One can dream …


I have the HA300 mk1 and it pairs with the HD800S better than any other amp I have heard or owned. There is something truly magical happening with the midrange whereas the bass and treble are merely excellent.


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## Yggy

Andykong said:


> There is a *600ohm HD250 *closed back on eBay, but you need to find a new earpad for this one.  Let's see whether you like the HD540 before we try other options.  I have collected 600ohm version of HD540Gold, HD540 and HD250. I happen to like the HD250 more then the other two.


I bought the 600 ohm HD-250 for USD 300. I figured I might as well because I really liked the HD-540 and I have two NOS pairs of HD-430 pads to put to use now after salvaging the fabric pads on the HD-540. The ones I bought from the Amazon UK Sennheiser store have the plastic clips on the back. I’m not sure about the other NOS pair the HD-540 seller is sending to me.  

600 ohm Linear 1s look to be much rarer than 300 ohm Linear 2s, I can’t see any other pairs for sale. The HD-250 on eBay looked to be in excellent condition apart from the pads. 

Two questions. Have you tried / do you use the HD-540/HD-250 with upgraded cables? I was thinking of a 4 pin XLR Stefan Audio Art Endorphin. I had an Equinox with my HD-650s years ago and it was brilliant, it made me a believer in the value of premium cables. My K1000s have a hard wired Equinox and that’s one of the reasons I bought them. My only reservation is that premium headphone cables tend to skew sound signatures and the beauty of the HD-540 is its purity and neutrality. 

Does the HD-540 Reference gold sound better than the Reference 1 to your ears or is the value in the more upmarket look (for the 80s!) and more collectible presentation box. Based on what I’ve read, they are sonically identical / very similar but I can see they have a different cable / 6.35mm gold termination, for example. What do enthusiasts think?


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## Andykong (Mar 28, 2022)

Yggy said:


> I bought the 600 ohm HD-250 for USD 300. I figured I might as well because I really liked the HD-540 and I have two NOS pairs of HD-430 pads to put to use now after salvaging the fabric pads on the HD-540. The ones I bought from the Amazon UK Sennheiser store have the plastic clips on the back. I’m not sure about the other NOS pair the HD-540 seller is sending to me.
> 
> 600 ohm Linear 1s look to be much rarer than 300 ohm Linear 2s, I can’t see any other pairs for sale. The HD-250 on eBay looked to be in excellent condition apart from the pads.
> 
> ...



I have bookmarked that HD250 and noticed it was sold at base price, I was wondering whether you have pulled the trigger.  HD540 are well known and collected by many, but HD250 are very low profile and didn't draw any attention, so they are hard to find because a lot of users don't know this item has resale value.  Yes, 600 ohm LInear one is very rare.

I didn't.  I have multiple "original" cables from my HD540s and HD250s, so I convert one of the DIN cable to XLR4 since the cable is not usable with modern gears anyway.

Be reminded the headphone connectors of HD250/540/540 Gold are not identical to HD600/650, the nearest you can get is to get a set of HD600/650 connector and mod them to fit HD250/540.  Someone said they can force HD600/650 cable into these headphones, but I didn't bother to try, I worry that once you force a bigger connectors into these antique headphones, you can't use the original cable again, or you can break the connectors accidentially.

If I changed my HD540 and HD540 Gold (both 600ohm or 300ohm) to the same earpad, cable, cotton ring (white) and cotton pad (black), the different is minimal.  They might sound different in the very beginning but after 30 years of agin, the premium of HD540 Gold are more related to collection purpose.

I know you'll like these headphones, but I didn't expect you like them so much, so my gut feeling is spot on, agian.


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## Yggy

AK, if you get the chance to try the HD-540 on the FiiO M17 DAP, you’ll be very impressed. The M17 is slightly warm, lush and bassy, the best headphone I’ve tried it with so far is the HE1000SE, because it’s the opposite of the M17 sound signature but doesn’t lose any of the HE1000SE’s amazing detail. The M17 slightly warms up the HD-540 and shines a light on its bass more than 300b tubes can but it’s still incredibly neutral, pure, and linear. I’ve been listening at 72 on the volume dial (out of 120) plugged into my Ifi iPower Elite 12v PSU and 90 on battery only. Really looking forward to hearing how the HD-250 sounds with the HA-300 and M17.


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## Andykong

Whitigir said:


> Interesting amplifier ! Do we have the specs for the Input and output transformers disclosed



Unfortunately, we don't disclose or discuss our product at components level, once we start these topics, we'll need to deal with many questions, and a lot of them will mislead other consumers, especially when some users are over sensitive on quantifiable parameters.   If you look at my response to *6SN7 replacement* qurestion, you'll notice that I tried very hard to cover my ass when I compile that response, and not all forum/community are muture and reasonable like HeadFi, you can imagine how difficult this can developed into if we took them lightly.  

Please accept tour sincerely apology, we prefer to stick with our policy on this practise.


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## Yggy

Andykong said:


> Be reminded the headphone connectors of HD250/540/540 Gold are not identical to HD600/650, the nearest you can get is to get a set of HD600/650 connector and mod them to fit HD250/540.  Someone said they can force HD600/650 cable into these headphones, but I didn't bother to try, I worry that once you force a bigger connectors into these antique headphones, you can't use the original cable again, or you can break the connectors accidentally.


Yes, my view too. I’m going to bin the cable upgrade idea unless I find something genuinely made for HD-540/HD-250.


Andykong said:


> I know you'll like these headphones, but I didn't expect you like them so much, so my gut feeling is spot on, again.


I love the HD-540! They look and feel so ordinary but sound extraordinary. I thought I’d die wearing Susvaras but since discovering the HD-540, K1000, and 4 screw HE-6 I’ve realised that headphones don’t always get better across decades, they are just different! Sound signatures are as much about fashion as technology.


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## Andykong (Mar 29, 2022)

Yggy said:


> Yes, my view too. I’m going to bin the cable upgrade idea unless I find something genuinely made for HD-540/HD-250.
> 
> I love the HD-540! They look and feel so ordinary but sound extraordinary. I thought I’d die wearing Susvaras but since discovering the HD-540, K1000, and 4 screw HE-6 I’ve realised that headphones don’t always get better across decades, they are just different! Sound signatures are as much about fashion as technology.



Well, I happen to own K1000, HE6 (not the 3 screws version, but a very old shop demo) and a complete family of HD540/540G/250 linear 1, so I do recognise what you have experienced, but I come to a different conclusion.

I have shared my view on this subject briefly *HERE*. In short, I put refinement, empathy, emotional involvement , ... (or musicality in general) as the more important factors over technicality on a high-end audio system.  I have a base line in technicality, and that is not a very low baseline, I just don't let technicality have the final say of my headphone preference.  In my experience,  once these attributes reach certain level, improvement in technicality will only fulfill my hardware ego, it won't enhance my musical enjoyment.  Similarly, if you take the technicality of Susvara, HE6, K1000 and HD540 aside and look at their musicality factors, that probably also explained your expereince.

On the other hand, I'll won't look down on modern headphones simply becuase I had good experience with old headphones.  It is more than a sound signature issue IMHO.  Modern high quality  headphones that place musicality over technicality in their priority is my cup of tea. They can offer refinement and technicality without scarifying musicality, and let me embrace the best of both sides.  Meze is one example, Kennerton is another example.


----------



## project86

Absolutely! The Meze Empyrean, Meze Elite, and Kennerton Thekk are all examples of that - and consequently make for some of my favorite/most often used headphones. 

As you mentioned, there's gotta be a technical baseline that must be met, or else the experience is too far off from reality. Could still be a fun guilty-pleasure type sound, but that's about it. Some headphones straddle that line closer than others but the Elite, Empyrean, and Thekk all clear it fairly easily.


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## rmsanger

Can't wait for a review of the Mk2 to be posted.. I think I heard from someone in another thread (similar product) a post where they implied they will be getting one for review to compare with that said similar product.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-envy.960600/post-16866722


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## Andykong (Apr 1, 2022)

*1.     The irresistible 300B Direct Heated Triode*

A lot of tube enthusiasts consider the Directed Heated Triode (DHT) as the holy grail of vacuum tube for audio application. DHT refers to Triode tubes that use the cathode as the filament and will heat up the cathode directly during operation. These can be considered as the minimal approach to amplification and have a huge following, especially among Japanese and Chinese audiophile communities. There is a long list of vacuum tubes belongs to this family, but for modern audio application, the more commonly used DHT are 45, 2A3, 300B, 845 and 211, and 300B is probably the most well-known and sought after DHT in audiophile community.   In fact, if you happen to have audiophile friends who were into tube amplifier seriously, there is a large chance that you heard the good old saying: once you tried 300B it’s hard to go back. Howard Stone claim that “No tube — and possibly no component — in the world of tube audio has attracted so much attention over the years than the 300B triode” in *The 300B Tube Lives Again*! This is a bold claim, but the statement was endorsed by audiophiles since 2014.

The 300B offers an attractive tonal characteristic that is very close to the dream of audiophiles. It has a prominent full-body midrange, harmonically rich with unforced details that bring out the best of acoustic instrument, and the holographic presence that how the singer (or the band) appeared to be directly there in front of you. Technically, 300B offers very high linearity during amplification. This probably accounts for the natural presentation and excellent low-level details that re-created the presence that bring us closer to our music.





If 300B is that good, why it wasn’t mass produced and dominated the audio market? There are two major problems with 300B in audio applications. One of the weaknesses of 300B is the directly heated cathode makes it very sensitive to hum and interference. The microphonic effect is very prominent if you touch/knock at the tube or the chassis of the amplifier. This can be a minor problem to speaker based setup because when the amplifier are placed in a Hi-Fi rack 3 meters away from you, its unlikely that you’ll touch the amplifier, and the hum noise will only cause minimum disturb when the speaker is 2 meter away from you. But when we use 300B as headphone amplifier, the chassis is normally placed at arm-reach distance and the drivers of your headphone is probably 2 inches away from your ear, the microphonic effect will be very annoying, especially when you are using a high sensitive headphone such as Focal Stella or AKG K812. That explained why 300B based headphone amplifier is a challenge to design and costly to build.

On the other hand, the 300B is a relatively small powered output tube. Typically it can deliver 7-8 watt only without over driven. There are newer variants of 300B that offers slightly higher output, but they need to draw higher filament currents than the original 300B, as defined by Western Electronic back in 1938. The low output power has limited the 300B to pair with very sensitive speakers or to use in fairly small listening area. Fortunately, their lost is our gain. When we used the 300B in Personal Audio applications, the relatively small output for speakers is strong enough to drive very demanding headphones already. That makes 300B a wonderful choice for high-end headphone amplifier.

Among the choices, Cayin adopts a matched pair of Gold Lion *Genelex PX300B* as output tube for HA-300MK2. For stock output tube, Cayin has to be realistic and put reliability, availability and cost performance as top priority. Since the 1950's, only the very best Marconi-Osram Valve Company audio tubes have been labeled GEC (Genalex) Gold Lion. A tube had to endure and pass the toughest testing the industry offered before it can carry that label. In keeping with the tradition of Genalex to provide the highest quality tubes, they have released the Genalex Gold Lion PX300B low-noise audio triode that offers very decent frequency extension with a natural, sensible and realistic sound signature. This tube is considered to be an excellent upgrade tube by many 300B users and has been called the best *“Common Man” 300B Tubes*.


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## Andykong (Apr 29, 2022)

*2.   SETA, a Purist’s One-way Ticket *

Single-ended Triode Amplifier (SETA) is a vacuum tube-based design that uses a single-triode tube per channel to produce output without splitting the musical signal's plus/minus parts in each channel. In contrast, a push/pull amplifier, which uses a pair (or more) of tubes, splits the plus/minus of the music signal, then it has to put them back together to form the complete musical wave in each channel. Many argue that, once you split the signal's plus/minus, you never quite put it back together again with the exact purity that it contained beforehand. This is technically referred to as a crossover distortion, which ironically doesn't have anything to do with actual speaker crossovers. Also, almost all reference-level SET amplifiers run in pure Class A, not AB, to further avoid this type of distortion. The perceived high sonic quality is mainly attributed to the simplicity and minimalist approach of the circuits involved, as well as the triode vacuum tubes that are typically used. One SET aficionado describes it as "a Zen simplicity to reproduce the complexity of music. Less is more."
(extracted from Terry London, Home Theater Review)

If you prefer a video version, you can also check out *HERE*.

This *article* also explain the special charm of SET amplifier by comparing it to different types of amplification.

Cayin recognized the beauty of SETA and has devoted a lot of resource to develop dozens of SETAs in our history. In fact, you can find SIX sets of SETAs (A-300BMK2, CS-300A, CS-805A, CS-845A, A-845 Pro 25th Anniversary and M-845i) using 300B as output tube or driver tube in our current speaker amplifier line up, on top of the HA-300 and HA-300MK2 in this thread. We can safely claim that Cayin knows SETA and we are one of the authoritative behind the SETA movement.

Is SETA a perfect amplifier? Definitely no. Although SETAs are more dynamic than their low power would suggest, but they are still very low power after all. Their constraints are clear as day and they are appreciated by a niche group of audiophiles who are willing to limit their choice of speaker to very efficient design, typically horn loaded or “crossoverless” single-driver speakers. However, this low-power constraint becomes non-existed for headphone applications. While high power amplifiers like CS-150A or Soul 170i are well-received when compare to CS-805A or A-845 Pro, SETA such as HA-300/HA-300MK2 will sound better than push-pull design in both tone and detail even with the most demanding headphones, which make personal audio the most ideal platform for SETA followers.





HA-300 and HA-300MK2 employs the same 2-stage single-ended amplification with 6SN7 as driver tube. It will boost the input signal to the appropriate level so that the 300B output tube will perform its second stage amplification at a very linear condition. In simple terms, driver tube amplifies singal voltage while output tubes amplify current. The driver tubes are primarily for gain and signal processing while the output tubes take care of the heavy lifting to drive the headphone. This explained why users experienced significant change in tonal characteristic when they roll the drive tubes.

If you look into the tube combination of our SETAs mentioned earlier on, you’ll probably will notice that Cayin always use 6SN7 as driver tube when we use 300B as output tube. Chris Marten called this combination “legendary in audiophile circles” in his HA-300 review (HiFi+ July 2018, issue 161, page 69-72). For the HA-300MK2 implementation, Cayin uses a matched pair of *Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB *as driver tube for almost the same reason as Genalex Gold Lion PX300B. This is a super linear, low noise high performance, highly reliable and natural sounding driver tube for SET amplification.


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## Sampajanna

What are differences in MK2?


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## Whitigir

Ohhh, now I see, all the transformers are custom made by Cayin in house! I thought they were from off the shelves components.  That is very interesting to know, but there are also some very high-end, expensive transformers out there too.  I wonder if anyone have already been upgrading their amplifier yet LOL!


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## puffmtd

I will own this.


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## dadracer2

Sampajanna said:


> What are differences in MK2?


There is a new improved volume controller, which due to a lack of availability of components is the cause of the delay in larger numbers being made, as far as I know. Not aware of any changes in the circuit itself. The 300B and 6SN7 are now from a different maker again due to availability, the TJ Full Music 300B is no longer made so Cayin have changed it for a Gold Lion 300B and the 6SN7 is now a modern Tung Sol GTB. There may be other changes but that's al I have seen mentioned on the forum.


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## Palyodgree

When made available I will sell my mk1 for the MK 2 just for the black chassis, it’s sooo sexy in black besides it will match my other black components.


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## Andykong (Apr 1, 2022)

*3.   Transformer Coupled Balanced Driven *

HA-300MK2 is a transformer coupled SETA. The output from the 300B output tube will drive a pair of proprietary output transformers which support both headphone and speaker outputs. If the 300B triode tubes are the spirit of the HA-300MK2, the output transformers are the flesh and blood of the amplifier. Cayin believes in this design. While there are different types of vacuum tube amplifiers in the market, we stick with transformer couple whenever possible, and that means literally all our desktop tube amplifiers are transformer coupled.

One of the frequently asked questions regarding our tube headphone amplifier is whether our XLR-4 and 4.4mm phone output are genially balanced driven, or are they “fake” balanced for convenient only since our tube amplification circuit are single-ended.

We understand the preference towards balanced headphones in Personal Audio hobby. For transformer coupled design, it is fairly straight forward to support both single-ended and balanced driven in the same circuit because our amplifiers are transformer coupled.. In simplified terms, balanced amplification is all about feeding opposing polarity signals to the left and right transducer. In the case of transformer-coupled speaker amplifier, in regardless of single-ended or balanced tube amplification, it will deliver + and - output to the left and right speaker terminals in order to drive a pair of speaker properly, and these L+, L- and R+, R- output from output transformers are in fact equivalent to a fully balanced output already.

When we apply this to headphone application, balanced headphone amplification is feeding opposing polarity signals to the left and right ear-cup of your headphone (in regardless of whether there is a dynamic driver or a planar inside). Likewise to the example I quoted above, we can achieve that through a specific method to wind the transformer so that the positive polarity (aka "hot") and negative polarity (aka "cold") are driven in opposite directions, hence deliver a fully balanced output from a single-ended tube amplification circuit. In other word, both single-ended and balanced headphone output are "original" output from the transformers, we don't take the single-end output and then convert it into balanced through wiring. .





HA-300MK2 offers two balanced headphone outputs: 4.4mm and XLR4 respectively. From what we observed, XLR4-terminated headphones are almost exclusively full-size headphones but 4.4mm terminated headphones cover a wider range including low impedance high sensitive portable friendly headphones. For these reasons, we decided to optimize the 4.4mm and XLR4 headphone outputs separately. The XLR4 output is a full-fetched output from output transformer while the 4.4mm winding is a level-matched, lower noise, lower power output with the same audio performance, making it more suitable for portable headphones. For instance, at LOW headphone impedance setting, the XLR4 output delivers 2 watt per channel and the 4.4mm output delivers 1.4 watt per channel, roughly 70% of XLR4 only.

Since the 6SN7 and 300B circuit are operated in single-ended, HA-300MK2 will convert XLR balanced input into single-ended before feeding the signal to 6SN7 and this will involve a pair of input transformers. Since the inputs are low voltage line level signal only, these input transformers are very compact and can easily hide between the balanced input connectors and the 6SN7 circuit. Although the RCA single-ended input will skip this conversion process and we might anticipate that the single-ended input will sound better than the balanced input, the conversion from balanced to single-ended is a lot simpler than doing it the other way round. As a result, adding the input transformers in the signal path is hardly audible but at least we don’t have to worry that we need to provide a balanced input into to achieve better performance from balanced headphone output.


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## Andykong

*4.   Impedance Matched Headphone Outputs*

One of the very useful feature of Cayin vacuum tube amplifier is the impedance matched headphone output. HA-300 provides three headphone impedance settings, and the amplifier will optimized its output to handle the headphone loading according to the specified headphone impedance. Each impedance matched output is an independent secondary winding from the output transformers. The impedance settings are:


Recommended for​Target Impedance (XLR4 and 4.4mm)​Low (L):8Ω~64Ω​32Ω​Medium (M):65Ω-250Ω​64Ω​High (H) :251Ω~600Ω​300Ω​

The recommended range is not designed as a linear coverage because headphones don’t spread across the impedance linearly. For instance, I can only recall two headphones (HD660 and HD700) between 120Ω-250Ω. While the ranges are identical to the original HA-300, we have revised the target impedance to accommodate the latest norm of low impedance headphones.

Matching headphone impedance should produce a natural sound with well-defined bass reproduction. This is our recommended starting point but not necessarily your preferred sound signature, so you can start with the nearest setting to your headphone and then experiment with other settings. To enhance your experience with impedance matched headphone output, please compare your headphone impedance with the target impedance in the previous table. If your headphone impedance is in the middle of two target impedances (e.g., 50Ω), then both setting are consider appropriate and you can select the settings according to your preference (or music genre at different playback session).

Since the impedance ratings of dynamic headphones are varied across the audible frequency range, the impedance matched headphone output will only have nominal effect. However, if you are using a planar headphone, setting appropriate headphone impedance might cause bigger implication. The impedance of your planar headphone is supposed to remain constant across the audible frequency range.

Please do not confuse headphone impedance matching output with gain control in Solid State amplifier. Although higher headphone impedance will deliver higher output power, but that’s because we are driving the amplifier at a harder load. Gain control is one of the biggest different between Solid-state and Vacuum tube amplifiers. You can adjust the gain ratio in SS amp to alter the output power, but you won't find gain control in an all-tube amplifier. The HA-300MK2 has two stages of amplification (6SN7 and 300B) and output transformers. None of these allow us to adjust "gain ratio" like a solid state amplifier. Therefore H/M/L headphone impedance setting is technically different from High/Mid/Low gain control in solid state amplifier. The headphone impedance setting will introduce bigger change to sound signature than changing the gain of a solid state amplifier.





*Back to Transformer*

To summarize, the output transformers of HA-300B are extremely complicated because we need a pair of Multiple Winding Output Transformers that takes cares of three headphone outputs (6.35mm, 4.4mm, XLR4) at primary winding, and supports three impedance matched headphone outputs, plus one set of speaker output, at secondary winding.

We should all notice by now that transformer plays a vital role in transformer coupled vacuum tube amplifier. The design and implementation of transformers become an important part of our product tuning. The choice of transformer core, specification of copper wire in different parts of winding, and the winding instruction will affect the performance and sound signature of our product. This is a critical core competence that will maximize our product development capability, extend our product life cycle and enhance our operate efficiency.

Given Cayin’s scale of operation and devotion to build high quality tube amplifiers for our customers, Cayin bite the bullet and incorporated a small transformer plant in our facilities. We design and wind all the power supply and output transformers of our tube amplifiers in-house. This will allow the R&D department to have total freedom in specifying the winding instructions for our products, and we have total control on the material and craftsmanship on the transformer of our tube amplifiers.


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## bdjul

@Andykong thank you for such an interesting information. I noticed that rated output were changed. Balanced Xlr output becomes the most powerful one, when in old ha-300 it was single ended 6.3.


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## Andykong

Live action at CanJam Singapore today.  Our Singapore partner *Zeppelin* setup HA-6A and HA-300MK2 sharing the same source, visitors can compare the two tube amplifier side by side.


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## dadracer2

Hi @Andykong will you have a partner at Can Jam London in July do you think? It would be delightful to have a chance to hear these new products.


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## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> Hi @Andykong will you have a partner at Can Jam London in July do you think? It would be delightful to have a chance to hear these new products.



We have worked with AMP3 in one of the CanJam London, but their main focus are portable products.  @PhilW, not sure if  Audio Concierge is active in CanJam London.


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## dadracer2

Thanks Andy I will give them a call and see.


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## Loftprojection

This is the most beauty amp on the market, so sexy in black.  

Is the volume control still a 24 step attenuator?  I would have loved it if a remote would have been added this time, specially since this beauty can drive speakers.  Amp designers seem to think all we are all sitting at an office desk with the amp at arm distance.


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## Andykong

Loftprojection said:


> This is the most beauty amp on the market, so sexy in black.
> 
> Is the volume control still a 24 step attenuator?  I would have loved it if a remote would have been added this time, specially since this beauty can drive speakers.  Amp designers seem to think all we are all sitting at an office desk with the amp at arm distance.



We replaced the volume to JRC MUSES72320V electronic controlled analog volume controller with 41-steps ALPS balanced potentiometer.   Unfortunately the HA-300MK2 didn't support remote control.


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## Sampajanna

Can make users just upgrade the volume control?


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## Andykong

rmsanger said:


> Can't wait for a review of the Mk2 to be posted.. I think I heard from someone in another thread (similar product) a post where they implied they will be getting one for review to compare with that said similar product.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-envy.960600/post-16866722



Yes, Headfonics will be the first review site with HA-300MK2.  We shipped the amplifier  out on 12 March, unfortunately the amplifier was idled at Shenzhen for two weeks because of the lockdown from 15 March, otherwise @marcusd should be working at a first contact review of HA-300MK2 already.  The amplifier is still finding its way out of China, we need to exercise our utmost patient on this one.


----------



## bdjul

@Andykong Andy, in black this amp is simply stunning. Can you tell me please, does new ha-300mkII improve on the hum sensitivity?


----------



## Z_Showmaster

Someone tried his Empire Ears Hero CIEM out the 4.4mm and reported _no hiss_.


----------



## Andykong

Z_Showmaster said:


> Someone tried his Empire Ears Hero CIEM out the 4.4mm and reported _no hiss_.



Thanks for the update, this is exciting. 

When I talked to our Lead Engineer Chen for the reason behind different output between 4.4mm and XLR4, he did mention several time that the 4.4mm phone out optimisation has taken IEMs into consideration, he has reduced the output and  improve the SN ratio at the same time, making some the HA-300MK2 applicable to selected IEM.   We didn't have the luxery to test out the HA-300MK2 with a lot of IEMs, so I didn't include this in the *Transformer Coupled Balanced Driven* section.  I just checked, the Empire Ear Hero is 105dB/mw @ 1kHz and impedance is 17.6 Ohms @ 1kHz, this is a very good starting point for HA-300MK2 with IEM, let's stay tune on this subject and find out if the HA-300MK2 is indeed IME freiendly.


----------



## Andykong

bdjul said:


> @Andykong Andy, in black this amp is simply stunning. Can you tell me please, does new ha-300mkII improve on the hum sensitivity?



Yes, we did something along this line.  If you look at the opening post at page #1, you can notice two highlighted features, 

Custom make silica gel shock absorber as anti-shock buffer between critical tube components, chassis mainframe and tube socket, remove microphonic of 300B DHT effectively and provide quiet and realistic playback from sensitive headphones.
Minimize interference by reinforcing shielding of transformers, effective circuit layout and optimized circuit design
The new design works great in our setup, but we need to test this in user setups before we can determine the effectiveness of the new design.


----------



## Sampajanna

Andykong said:


> Yes, we did something along this line.  If you look at the opening post at page #1, you can notice two highlighted features,
> 
> Custom make silica gel shock absorber as anti-shock buffer between critical tube components, chassis mainframe and tube socket, remove microphonic of 300B DHT effectively and provide quiet and realistic playback from sensitive headphones.
> Minimize interference by reinforcing shielding of transformers, effective circuit layout and optimized circuit design
> The new design works great in our setup, but we need to test this in user setups before we can determine the effectiveness of the new design.


Can MK1 users upgrade the volume control?


----------



## Mobiustereo

As a owner of the ‘regular’ 1st gen. HA-300, I can only say wow! I can’t imagine how they could improve on this already amazing amp. Wish I could attend!!


----------



## Whitigir

Sampajanna said:


> Can MK1 users upgrade the volume control?


You don’t like stepped attenuator? Anyways, it should be pretty simple to do such things, and a good question for Cayin


----------



## Andykong

Sampajanna said:


> Can MK1 users upgrade the volume control?


 This will involve changing the stepped attenuator to *JRC MUSES72320V* + ALPS attenuator, the JRC is a electronically controlled analog volume chip, it is installed on the main ciruict board, so from factory point of view, you need to replace the main PCB in order to gain access to the JRC volume chip.   Unfortunately the MK2 circuit board is not a 100% direct compatible to the version 1 circuit board. In other word, this is not possible.


----------



## Whitigir (Apr 4, 2022)

Andykong said:


> This will involve changing the stepped attenuator to *JRC MUSES72320V* + ALPS attenuator, the JRC is a electronically controlled analog volume chip, it is installed on the main ciruict board, so from factory point of view, you need to replace the main PCB in order to gain access to the JRC volume chip.   Unfortunately the MK2 circuit board is not a 100% direct compatible to the version 1 circuit board. In other word, this is not possible.


Ah! My bad! I thought MkIi was still point to point soldered, and perhaps a daughterboard of the JRC volume control in places.


----------



## 111MilesToGo

I read that the stepped attenuator in the original HA-300 is a little issue, too few steps, volume coming up too fast. The HA-300 MkII improves on that. My question is: Does the HA-6A have this same issue as the 300 MkI?


----------



## Andykong

Whitigir said:


> Ah! My bad! I thought MkIi was still point to point soldered, and perhaps a daughterboard of the JRC volume control in places.



All the tubes and discrete components are still point to point soldered.


----------



## project86

111MilesToGo said:


> I read that the stepped attenuator in the original HA-300 is a little issue, too few steps, volume coming up too fast. The HA-300 MkII improves on that. My question is: Does the HA-6A have this same issue as the 300 MkI?



It's funny - as far as I know the HA300 and HA-6A use the same stepped attenuator volume control, both with 24 steps. But having used both, I feel like I experienced less issues with finding an ideal volume match when using the HA-6A. I don't know exactly why that might be but I have two theories.

1) the HA-6A can switch from Triode to ultra-linear mode, and also gives options for running different tubes. So I am more likely to choose options that harmonize with my chosen headphones, and thus operating within the best volume range already.

2) I tried the HA300 first, and then the HA-6A. To some extent I probably got used to it, and found it less troublesome just based on pre pre-existing knowledge/experience. I did find that using a DAC with quality volume control can help fill the gap - adjusting by a few notches on the DAC side is usually imperceptible in terms of SQ degradation, and can often get things precisely where you want them.


----------



## Yggy

Andykong said:


> I have bookmarked that HD250 and noticed it was sold at base price, I was wondering whether you have pulled the trigger.  HD540 are well known and collected by many, but HD250 are very low profile and didn't draw any attention, so they are hard to find because a lot of users don't know this item has resale value.  Yes, 600 ohm LInear one is very rare.


I got my HD250s AK. I’m pretty sure they are 600 ohm but they don’t have the 300 ohm stamp on the cup. Lovely sound. Similar sound to HD540 but fuller bass and more intimate. I replaced the pads and foam disks with the new old stock HD430 pads I got with my HD540. Look much tidier now.


----------



## Palyodgree

Andykong said:


> Thanks for the update, this is exciting.
> 
> When I talked to our Lead Engineer Chen for the reason behind different output between 4.4mm and XLR4, he did mention several time that the 4.4mm phone out optimisation has taken IEMs into consideration, he has reduced the output and  improve the SN ratio at the same time, making some the HA-300MK2 applicable to selected IEM.   We didn't have the luxery to test out the HA-300MK2 with a lot of IEMs, so I didn't include this in the *Transformer Coupled Balanced Driven* section.  I just checked, the Empire Ear Hero is 105dB/mw @ 1kHz and impedance is 17.6 Ohms @ 1kHz, this is a very good starting point for HA-300MK2 with IEM, let's stay tune on this subject and find out if the HA-300MK2 is indeed IME freiendly.


Andy will there be a price adjustment for the Mk2 ?


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> I got my HD250s AK. I’m pretty sure they are 600 ohm but they don’t have the 300 ohm stamp on the cup. Lovely sound. Similar sound to HD540 but fuller bass and more intimate. I replaced the pads and foam disks with the new old stock HD430 pads I got with my HD540. Look much tidier now.



Yes, this is  600ohm version, only 300 ohm version have its impedance stamp on the cup, the 600 ohm version is plain.

The HD250 was my daily bedside headphone for a very long time.  It is not a high resolution phone in my collection, but extremely natural sounding to me (yes, natural sounding is a personal experience). 

So what will be  your next move?  Digging up more hidden gem from the forgotten treasure? or checkout out modern headphones that rated as musical > technicality?


----------



## Andykong

Palyodgree said:


> Andy will there be a price adjustment for the Mk2 ?



The suggested retail price of HA-300MK2 is *US$4,399*, we have updated the price information in the opening post.


----------



## Andykong

project86 said:


> It's funny - as far as I know the HA300 and HA-6A use the same stepped attenuator volume control, both with 24 steps. But having used both, I feel like I experienced less issues with finding an ideal volume match when using the HA-6A. I don't know exactly why that might be but I have two theories.
> 
> 1) the HA-6A can switch from Triode to ultra-linear mode, and also gives options for running different tubes. So I am more likely to choose options that harmonize with my chosen headphones, and thus operating within the best volume range already.
> 
> 2) I tried the HA300 first, and then the HA-6A. To some extent I probably got used to it, and found it less troublesome just based on pre pre-existing knowledge/experience. I did find that using a DAC with quality volume control can help fill the gap - adjusting by a few notches on the DAC side is usually imperceptible in terms of SQ degradation, and can often get things precisely where you want them.



The HA-6A is designed as a workhorse, it is very versatile offers options that are not available with HA-300, that probably explained your experience with both amplifier.  Glad to have your among us all the time, from what I recall, you are the only English speaking reviewer that covers both HA-300 and HA-6A from Cayin.

Be reminded that the HA-300 was debut at CanJam New York 2018 (Feb) .  The 24 steps balanced attenuator in HA-300 was a custom make components,  we finalised the design and place our order on mid 2017, and that was based on our product fine tune at early 2017.  There wasn't a lot of low impedance high sensitivity choice among high-end headphones at that time.  When we custom make a full balanced stepped volume attenuator, we need to make a lot of consideration between number of steps and sound quality.  We know more steps are always welcommed, but that will increse the complexity of the stepped attenuator, and the choice of components to compose the attenuator.


----------



## Andykong (May 7, 2022)

I have composed a more detailed comparison between the original HA-300 and the newly announced HA-300MK2.

I want to stress it again that the HA-300MK2 is an update to fit the HA-300 design into the current high-end headphone industry.  As always, we try our best to deliver the best result whenever possible, but we didn't start off to design an upgrade for current HA-300 users.  If you have acquired an HA-300 recently, please be assured that your HA-300 is still one of the best sounding headphone amplifiers in the market, and there is no need to rush into an upgrade decision with HA-300MK2.   (Please don't show this to our Sales Manager, ...)

Cayin takes a very different approach to product development, we don't roll out new products very often, and we don't want our users to take it for grand that when we roll out a new product, you should upgrade your current product at the same time.  I for one agreed with this philosophy, maybe that's why I am still using Office 2010 when I wrote this table.  



*HA-300MK2**HA-300*Output TubeGold Lion Genelax PX300BFull Music 300B/nDriver TubeTung-Sol 6SN7GTBShuguang WE6SN7BAL Phone Output4.4mm, 4-pin XLR4-pin XLROutput TransformerWide bandwidth EI transformer with reinforcing shieldingWide bandwidth EI TransformerPower Supply TransformerWide bandwidth toroidal transformer with reinforcing shielding and lower rippleWide bandwidth toroidal transformerVolume ControlJRC MUSES72320V volume controller with 41-steps ALPS balanced potentiometerCustom-built 24 Stepa balanced potentiometerCoupling capacitorCustom AudioCapX MultiCapMundorf MCap SilverGoldFuse for Output TubeUser-replaceable on amplifier chassisNon-user-replaceable on circuit boardPower ConnectorsLocking quick-release aviation-copper connectorsMilitary-grade screw-on connectorUmbilical cableLow internal resistance low loss silver plated TeflonBraided multi-strand heavy-duty copper cable


----------



## 111MilesToGo

Maybe somebody should ask this. Admittedly, first world problems in a very difficult and sad world today - sorry. Those Gold Lion Genelax PX300B are made in Russia - correct? What are Cayin‘s perspectives on manufacturing the HA-300Mk2 in the longer term?


----------



## dadracer2

111MilesToGo said:


> Maybe somebody should ask this. Admittedly, first world problems in a very difficult and sad world today - sorry. Those Gold Lion Genelax PX300B are made in Russia - correct? What are Cayin‘s perspectives on manufacturing the HA-300Mk2 in the longer term?


I know they had to change from the previous TJ Full Music 300b because that business closed. Cayin will need a modern valve with a steady supply and I am guessing that their decision was made to the Gold Lions quite some time before Russia invaded the Ukraine. I think I am right in saying the Gold Lion brand is owned by a US company but they are made in Russia as are many other modern valves other than the ones made in China.


----------



## Andykong

111MilesToGo said:


> Maybe somebody should ask this. Admittedly, first world problems in a very difficult and sad world today - sorry. Those Gold Lion Genelax PX300B are made in Russia - correct? What are Cayin‘s perspectives on manufacturing the HA-300Mk2 in the longer term?



Not sure if I understand the exact scope of "perspective".  IF using Russia tube is a deal breaker, sorry, we can only hope you'll find a better option. 

Cayin has changed our vaccum tube of our product from time to time, anyone who have read the HA-300 and HA-6A thread regularly will probably noticed these in several instances already.  The HA-300MK2 completed its development process back in late 2021.   Our supply chain has stocked up all the parts and components of HA-300MK2 since October 2021 but we were delayed for 6 months because we need to wait for the ALPS potentiometer.  We intend to continue our production with our current component inventory. We might need to replace the Genelax PX300B with other 300B tubes when we used up our current stock because as of today, we can't buy Gold Lion vacuum tube from Russia due to export ban.


----------



## Whitigir

well, you can swap tubes out right ? Go with USA, and pick Western Electric 300B …


----------



## Yggy

Andykong said:


> So what will be  your next move?  Digging up more hidden gem from the forgotten treasure? or checkout out modern headphones that rated as musical > technicality?


I bought a 600 ohm HD540 Reference Gold to complete the set. Bought it at eBay auction from Germany for 401 Euros. 

Condition is absolutely stunning and it came with the presentation box and mint instructions / serial number certificate. Was bundled with NOS unopened HD540 foam disks so I washed the pads in soap power, cleaned it up, and fitted the disks. I’ve attached a photo. 

I’m not buying any more headphones. Time to enjoy the music and sell a few things!


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> I bought a 600 ohm HD540 Reference Gold to complete the set. Bought it at eBay auction from Germany for 401 Euros.
> 
> Condition is absolutely stunning and it came with the presentation box and mint instructions / serial number certificate. Was bundled with NOS unopened HD540 foam disks so I washed the pads in soap power, cleaned it up, and fitted the disks. I’ve attached a photo.
> 
> I’m not buying any more headphones. Time to enjoy the music and sell a few things!


Wow, you completed the HD540G/HD540/HD250 600ohm collection, that's crazy,  the HD540 really is addicitve with HA-300.   I never have HA-300 at my home, so I haven't try them together, you  have proven my educated guess.


----------



## 111MilesToGo

Andykong said:


> Not sure if I understand the exact scope of "perspective".  IF using Russia tube is a deal breaker, sorry, we can only hope you'll find a better option.
> 
> Cayin has changed our vaccum tube of our product from time to time, anyone who have read the HA-300 and HA-6A thread regularly will probably noticed these in several instances already.  The HA-300MK2 completed its development process back in late 2021.   Our supply chain has stocked up all the parts and components of HA-300MK2 since October 2021 but we were delayed for 6 months because we need to wait for the ALPS potentiometer.  We intend to continue our production with our current component inventory. We might need to replace the Genelax PX300B with other 300B tubes when we used up our current stock because as of today, we can't buy Gold Lion vacuum tube from Russia due to export ban.


Oh, I did ask ONLY along the reasoning of your second paragraph, not your first one. Thanks for your answer! The reason behind my question was to get a picture of my own longer-term perspectives together with a manufacturer‘s perspectives on parts supplies.

Or, more clearly: I just went back to vinyl - wonderful. After getting my turntable maintained, fixed and equipped with a new pick-up cartridge, I have just ordered a new phono stage. In fact, that investment pushes another desired investment in a headphone tube amp further out … That is what I was referring to as ”my longer-term perspectives“.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Will be trying the MK2 with my Susvara and IER-Z1R at my local dealer's, next week! I hope I love it enough to place a preorder.

I never owned a tube amp with its own external power supply before, will tube rolling the 22DE4 make a difference?


----------



## dadracer2

ARCXENOS said:


> Will be trying the MK2 with my Susvara and IER-Z1R at my local dealer's, next week! I hope I love it enough to place a preorder.
> 
> I never owned a tube amp with its own external power supply before, will tube rolling the 22DE4 make a difference?


From what I have heard and read it doesn't look like there are many alternatives and these ones seem to be the best you can get.


----------



## Palyodgree (Apr 9, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Will be trying the MK2 with my Susvara and IER-Z1R at my local dealer's, next week! I hope I love it enough to place a preorder.
> 
> I never owned a tube amp with its own external power supply before, will tube rolling the 22DE4 make a difference?


Look forward to your comments with the Susvaras and Mk2 . I haven’t changed out tubes yet with my HA 300 , over the past few months I’ve gotten a good sense of how my HA 300 sounds with the factory supplied tubes and when I do swap I’ll start with the 6sn7s most likely I’ll hear any difference for the better or just flavour change , According to Andy swapping the driver tubes in the Mk1 that make the difference could be the same with the Mk2 .


----------



## Andykong

Palyodgree said:


> Look forward to your comments with the Susvaras and Mk2 . I haven’t changed out tubes yet with my HA 300 , over the past few months I’ve gotten a good sense of how my HA 300 sounds with the factory supplied tubes and when I do swap I’ll start with the 6sn7s most likely I’ll hear any difference for the better or just flavour , According to Andy swapping the driver tubes in the Mk1 that make the difference could be the same with the Mk2 .




The 6SN7 is on the upstream of 300B, any changes introduced by rolling the 6SN7 will be "amplified" in subsequent amplification circuit, hence produce a bigger different on sound signature. (*HERE*), so I encourge our users to start tube rolling wit 6SN7, because that's the more effective approach. 

I haven't heard the HA-300MK2, so I have no idea if swapping the driver tubes in the Mk1 that make the difference could be the same with the Mk2 .  This is beyond my knowledge and expereince.


----------



## dadracer2

Palyodgree said:


> Look forward to your comments with the Susvaras and Mk2 . I haven’t changed out tubes yet with my HA 300 , over the past few months I’ve gotten a good sense of how my HA 300 sounds with the factory supplied tubes and when I do swap I’ll start with the 6sn7s most likely I’ll hear any difference for the better or just flavour change , According to Andy swapping the driver tubes in the Mk1 that make the difference could be the same with the Mk2 .


Yes Andy had mentioned this before. Unfortunately there are so many 6SN7 options and almost as many opinions. I looked at NOS valves but got completely confused with it all so I am in the process of ordering some PSVANE 6SN7 replacements and see how that goes.


----------



## Palyodgree

dadracer2 said:


> Yes Andy had mentioned this before. Unfortunately there are so many 6SN7 options and almost as many opinions. I looked at NOS valves but got completely confused with it all so I am in the process of ordering some PSVANE 6SN7 replacements and see how that goes.


I’ve been down that path it’s great fun though for myself I’ve found rolling dacs can bring larger sonic changes.


----------



## dadracer2

Palyodgree said:


> I’ve been down that path it’s great fun though for myself I’ve found rolling dacs can bring larger sonic changes.


I'm sure that's true, but it's also a lot more expensive a path.


----------



## rmsanger

Andykong said:


> Yes, Headfonics will be the first review site with HA-300MK2.  We shipped the amplifier  out on 12 March, unfortunately the amplifier was idled at Shenzhen for two weeks because of the lockdown from 15 March, otherwise @marcusd should be working at a first contact review of HA-300MK2 already.  The amplifier is still finding its way out of China, we need to exercise our utmost patient on this one.


Thanks.. can somebody post the Headfonics review when it's published?  I'm anxious to read it but don't follow their site regularly.


----------



## Palyodgree

dadracer2 said:


> I'm sure that's true, but it's also a lot more expensive a path.


They we’re mostly dealer home audition and borrowed from a group over the past few months , it was very helpful and very much appreciated.


----------



## Bonddam

Anyone run 1266 TC on the MK2? If so how well is the bass slam and control? I interested as I can't afford Woo anymore and looking for something more cost effective. I currently have Little DOt that is having some issues with turning off after sometime.


----------



## Bonddam

So I'm in the closet but thinking of jumping the Woo ship for the new Cayin HA-300 mk2 and save some dough in the processes. I have my concerns but not about sounding great. I'm concerned with ability of driving the 1266 TC. Also worried if some part goes bad how is repair done in the USA. I have a Little Dot LD-Y2 which is amazing sounding 300B amp that I have done two repairs myself as tube repair people I have contacted don't want to touch it. My place of purchase is Musik Teck or Audio46 which are both under 2 hours from my house. So that's it 1266 TC bass does not crash and no crazy shipping expense back to China.


----------



## dadracer2

I'm not an expert on the Abyss headphone but looking at the specs I cannot see they would be a problem for the HA300 to drive properly. I have used my mk1 to try out a range of dynamic and planars and they were driven perfectly well. Maybe the best option would be to go to your Cayin dealer and take the headphones with you and then you can be 100% sure they will be a good match. My experience of Cayin dealers (here in the UK) has been first class and I suspect yours will be too as they tend to be real bricks and mortar stores so are happy and qualified to help, not that you should expect issues. There does seem to be a lot of support for Musictek here on the forum, but I cannot guarantee that as I have not been their customer, so hopefully someone else can confirm that for you.

I am going to my dealer today in fact to try some new (to me) headphones and he has promised we can use his new demo Cayin HA300 mk2 so am looking forward to that a lot. 

Best of luck.


----------



## Bonddam

dadracer2 said:


> I'm not an expert on the Abyss headphone but looking at the specs I cannot see they would be a problem for the HA300 to drive properly. I have used my mk1 to try out a range of dynamic and planars and they were driven perfectly well. Maybe the best option would be to go to your Cayin dealer and take the headphones with you and then you can be 100% sure they will be a good match. My experience of Cayin dealers (here in the UK) has been first class and I suspect yours will be too as they tend to be real bricks and mortar stores so are happy and qualified to help, not that you should expect issues. There does seem to be a lot of support for Musictek here on the forum, but I cannot guarantee that as I have not been their customer, so hopefully someone else can confirm that for you.
> 
> I am going to my dealer today in fact to try some new (to me) headphones and he has promised we can use his new demo Cayin HA300 mk2 so am looking forward to that a lot.
> 
> Best of luck.


Sucks about the East Coast is no stores and one that is known is 2 hours and when I called the guy had trouble talking to me about Woo and Cayin. I was looking for his opinion of Cayin HA-300 vs WA5 LE and he just told me 3-4 weeks so okay not what I was asking.


----------



## bdjul

Bonddam said:


> So I'm in the closet but thinking of jumping the Woo ship for the new Cayin HA-300 mk2 and save some dough in the processes. I have my concerns but not about sounding great. I'm concerned with ability of driving the 1266 TC. Also worried if some part goes bad how is repair done in the USA. I have a Little Dot LD-Y2 which is amazing sounding 300B amp that I have done two repairs myself as tube repair people I have contacted don't want to touch it. My place of purchase is Musik Teck or Audio46 which are both under 2 hours from my house. So that's it 1266 TC bass does not crash and no crazy shipping expense back to China.


I don’t have much experience with amplification 1266, but imho ha-300 1st gen is driving it pretty well. Better then susvara in my setup.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Apr 16, 2022)

I am very fortunate and appreciative to have been granted a demo session on the mk2 not just with my Susvara and IER Z1R, but also the ZMF Atrium and Focal Utopia by my local dealer.

Sources tested with was my Cayin N6ii E02 lineout and if I remember correctly, Matrix Audio's X-Sabre 3* via Tidal Connect*.

Demo length was only about 80 minutes long, I don't think I can write a fully fair critique, so I'll just note down my demo experience, please take what I say casually.

I have never tried (and most likely would avoid for personal reasons) to drive my Susvara off a speaker amp, my demo experience will be based subjectively around the headphone amplifiers I have used before. Sorry for any possible disappointments when you demo it yourself, my AHB-2 brethren .


My personal observations, songs used are of Rock, Jazz and Pop genres :

-  Drives the Susvara loud enough (or rather to my personal enjoyment levels) at around 12'o clock, definitely still has some headroom available in my case. I think the MK2 stock tube setup maintains a good balance of bass and treble, I never felt anything was off. Very pleasant to listen to. Based on previous experience, I had the expectation that there is a possibility that the mk2 would have flabby bass, but I found that this was not the case in my opinion*.*

- Using the IER Z1R, whilst not the most sensitive IEM there is, it would still comparatively be somewhat sensitive compared to most headphones. I can still perceive a minute buzz (as in, I really had to focus HARD) when left silent, however, the buzz was not audible when music is playing, even at a low level (I believe it was turn up half past 7). Sound quality was reasonable to a certain extent, but I would definitely not get the mk2 if all I use are IEMs (you will never know who is reading this...)

- This is also my first impression of the Atrium! I loved the timbre and general tonality from this combo, but I felt there was a distinct lack of treble presence, I am unsure which part of the chain it is due to lack of testing and experimentation, it would be wrong to pinpoint the "issue" on my end. Solid combo that will please many with the excellent bass, but I don't think I would personally use these for extended listening sessions, this combo don't feel like daily driver material

- Unexpected surprise for me was definitely pairing the Utopia with the mk2. I had tried the Utopia eons ago, and I didn't like it along the HD800s, I felt that both sounded harsh to me. This was not the case when the utopia is paired with the mk2 today, it has a fantastic, fuller midrange, with no semblance of harshness perceived at all, just the right amount of warmness for me. I would go out on a limb and say if I preorder the mk2, I see myself ordering the utopia a few months after. Utopia owners, you owe it to yourself to demo the mk2 out if you can.

- A seemingly common critique of the mk1 was the potentiometer,  I believe the mk2 does not have this issue, or I could just be lucky enough that the steps are to my liking. In the very least, I would say that the potentiometer is not an issue for me.

- In terms of presentation....well you can just see it for yourself, I like its looks in black more than the mk1's silver. VU meter looks pretty cool. Switches all felt solid to me. No immediate build complaints, but naturally I did not touch every nook and cranny. 29KG is a weight I'd probably want to remember, especially since my rack is rated to support up to 30kg in each tier. Might be a disaster waiting to happen for me.


Right now I am strongly debating for preordering the mk2, as the other HPAs that I have on my radar are Flux Acoustic's Volot (Unobtanium lately for obvious reasons), Holo Audio's Bliss (still no confirmed release date and details), and Ferrum's OOR + Hypsos. I have not tried WA's WA33, Feliks Audio's envy and other tube amplifiers of its ilk / tier, so I cannot comment whether the value proposition provided by the mk2 is actually comparable apart from stating the obvious that the mk2 is at a fraction of the cost, compared to its tube related competitors.

I will be demoing the Ferrum's OOR + Hypsos in a few days (yea I know its like apple vs oranges, but is it really all that different if all you want is to seek musical enjoyment) before making a final decision, but as of now, I believe the mk2 is a steep mountain to beat.


----------



## rmsanger

Last email I had to Tim was the Bliss was coming 2Q'22 (Apr-Jun).. although my last email was 1Q so they must be close but something in the supply chain is holding up the release.  I imagine it's similar to the volume pot on the HA-300 mk2 that held up production for ~6 months.

Also the Mk2 is absolutely beautiful.. I usually hate another black box but the way it has been finished it looks much better than the Mk1 silver.


----------



## Andykong

rmsanger said:


> Thanks.. can somebody post the Headfonics review when it's published?  I'm anxious to read it but don't follow their site regularly.



Sure, if you keep a closed eye on this thread, you'll be alerted when major reviews and impressions.


----------



## Andykong

Bonddam said:


> Anyone run 1266 TC on the MK2? If so how well is the bass slam and control? I interested as I can't afford Woo anymore and looking for something more cost effective. I currently have Little DOt that is having some issues with turning off after sometime.





Bonddam said:


> So I'm in the closet but thinking of jumping the Woo ship for the new Cayin HA-300 mk2 and save some dough in the processes. I have my concerns but not about sounding great. I'm concerned with ability of driving the 1266 TC. Also worried if some part goes bad how is repair done in the USA. I have a Little Dot LD-Y2 which is amazing sounding 300B amp that I have done two repairs myself as tube repair people I have contacted don't want to touch it. My place of purchase is Musik Teck or Audio46 which are both under 2 hours from my house. So that's it 1266 TC bass does not crash and no crazy shipping expense back to China.



Can it drive 1266?  This is probably one of the most frequently asked questions in the past 4 years.  It is not a matter of power or handling capability, but what is the sound signature you are looking for with your AB1266.  Among the sharing and discussions, my exchange with *llamaluv *probably will provide a good starting point to this question.  If you want to push the envelope of your 1266TC, to maximize the slam and authority presentation, then a high-power Solid State such as Well Audio HeadTrip or Niimbus US5 will definitely work better than a 300B based headphone amplifier.  On the other hand, if you want to smooth out the 1266TC and add a bit of refinement to your system, then HA-300MK2 is a very good candidate.  

If you are concerned with warranty and repair service, I suggest you work with MusicTeck directly, especially when you are two-hour drive from NJ.  MusicTeck has recruited a local repair service to take care of Cayin amplifiers, and we supported them with training, schematic, product documentation, and components.


----------



## Yggy (Apr 14, 2022)

I got my HA-300 MK1 Mundorf coupling capacitors replaced with a matched pair of V-Cap CuTF 0.22 uF 600 Vdc capacitors by Stuart Smith at Berkshire Guitar Amplifier Repairs today. The capacitors cost GBP £243.90 from HifiCollective.co.uk. Switching the caps didn’t take long and cost GBP £30.

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/in...2uf-600vdc-v-cap-cutf-capacitors-matched-pair

https://www.fixguitaramps.co.uk/

Tubes are Western Electric WE300b 2021 new production 300b and NOS Sylvania Metal Base 6SN7W. I’m listening to Susvaras on medium impedance with the volume dial around 12:00.

Without a doubt, it’s a new high water mark in headphone audio quality to my ears. Clarity and, to a lesser extent, resolution are audibly improved over the stock Mundorf caps. More clarity means less distortion when you increase volume and/or switch up impedance.

The stock Mundorf caps are about 1/3 of the size and 1/10 of the weight of the V-Cap CuTF caps.

Switching to the easy-to-drive and insanely fun Fostex TH900 MK2 headphones on low impedance at 9:00 on the volume dial, the improved clarity makes the notoriously fiery treble even fierier but I love how it pairs with the over-the-top bass for rap and hip hop.

I find easy-to-drive headphones like the TH900 MK2 and Focal Utopia can have low level hiss/crackle/grunge on the HA-300 but with the new caps, I can’t hear anything. It comes and goes so it might just be a coincidence.

I’d recommend upgrading the Mundorf coupling caps before rolling tubes or upgrading cables. To my ears, it’s the equivalent of a DAC upgrade in sound quality for a fraction of the cost, especially if you have highly resolving headphones like Susvaras. Grateful to the Head-fiers who suggested it.


----------



## Andykong

ARCXENOS said:


> I am very fortunate and appreciative to have been granted a demo session on the mk2 not just with my Susvara and IER Z1R, but also the ZMF Atrium and Focal Utopia by my local dealer.
> 
> Sources tested with was my Cayin N6ii E02 lineout and if I remember correctly, Matrix Audio's X-Sabre 3* via bluetooth.
> 
> ...



Based on the gears involved in your audition, I believe you had a good day at *Zeppelin*. 

*THIS* is the setup at CanJam NYC 2018 when we launch the original HA-300.   I have two HA-300 on display at that show. Empyrean occupied one set exclusively because it was a co-launch event.   HA-300 +  Susvara + Utopia was my choice of demo setup.  *Enjoythemusic.com *reviewed this set up in their show report very favorably.  So I am not surprised that your audition is surprisingly good


----------



## Bonddam

Andykong said:


> Can it drive 1266?  This is probably one of the most frequently asked questions in the past 4 years.  It is not a matter of power or handling capability, but what is the sound signature you are looking for with your AB1266.  Among the sharing and discussions, my exchange with *llamaluv *probably will provide a good starting point to this question.  If you want to push the envelope of your 1266TC, to maximize the slam and authority presentation, then a high-power Solid State such as Well Audio HeadTrip or Niimbus US5 will definitely work better than a 300B based headphone amplifier.  On the other hand, if you want to smooth out the 1266TC and add a bit of refinement to your system, then HA-300MK2 is a very good candidate.
> 
> If you are concerned with warranty and repair service, I suggest you work with MusicTeck directly, especially when you are two-hour drive from NJ.  MusicTeck has recruited a local repair service to take care of Cayin amplifiers, and we supported them with training, schematic, product documentation, and components.


Thanks


----------



## Whitigir

Andykong said:


> Can it drive 1266?  This is probably one of the most frequently asked questions in the past 4 years.  It is not a matter of power or handling capability, but what is the sound signature you are looking for with your AB1266.  Among the sharing and discussions, my exchange with *llamaluv *probably will provide a good starting point to this question.  If you want to push the envelope of your 1266TC, to maximize the slam and authority presentation, then a high-power Solid State such as Well Audio HeadTrip or Niimbus US5 will definitely work better than a 300B based headphone amplifier.  On the other hand, if you want to smooth out the 1266TC and add a bit of refinement to your system, then HA-300MK2 is a very good candidate.
> 
> If you are concerned with warranty and repair service, I suggest you work with MusicTeck directly, especially when you are two-hour drive from NJ.  MusicTeck has recruited a local repair service to take care of Cayin amplifiers, and we supported them with training, schematic, product documentation, and components.


Wow 6W per channels and OT will have problem with some headphones ? That much power can even drive speakers !!!


----------



## paradoxper (Apr 14, 2022)

Really like the sleek black chassis. This is perhaps more tempting than the Envy due to the superior power supply and rectification.

I am only left wondering if double dipping in WE 300B and MELZ 1578 is unreasonable...


----------



## protoss

@paradoxper 
Hey now no copying me. I am trying to come to the conclusion to buy the Cayin HA-300MK2 over the Envy. 

Probably got to get both to one up you.


----------



## paradoxper

protoss said:


> @paradoxper
> Hey now no copying me. I am trying to come to the conclusion to buy the Cayin HA-300MK2 over the Envy.
> 
> Probably got to get both to one up you.


What if I got both too?   

It's likely I keep the Carbernet DHT which uses 300B as well as 6SN7 with the CFA3. The Primavera serves the Valkyria but I have been wondering what a 300B headamp would do.

I also can't get the damn Manley Neo out of my head.


----------



## FFGuitar

I have tried the HA-300 MKII during CanJam Singapore 2022, it sounds fantastic with my HD800s. 
Does it make sense to have another tube pre-amp (in my case, a schiit mjolnir 2 with 6922 tubes) as input to the HA-300 MKII?

Another newbie question: While there are speaker outputs on the HA-300 MKII, can it be used to power passive desktop/bookshelf speakers? 

Comments to the above questions is greatly appreciated!


----------



## ARCXENOS

Andykong said:


> Based on the gears involved in your audition, I believe you had a good day at *Zeppelin*.
> 
> *THIS* is the setup at CanJam NYC 2018 when we launch the original HA-300.   I have two HA-300 on display at that show. Empyrean occupied one set exclusively because it was a co-launch event.   HA-300 +  Susvara + Utopia was my choice of demo setup.  *Enjoythemusic.com *reviewed this set up in their show report very favorably. So I am not surprised that your audition is surprisingly good



Spot on, it was indeed at zeppelin!

Utopia was definitely the unexpected star for me, considering I didn't like it on plenty of other solid states and tubes, I suspect many Utopia owners would be very pleased with either mk1 and mk2


----------



## dadracer2

FFGuitar said:


> I have tried the HA-300 MKII during CanJam Singapore 2022, it sounds fantastic with my HD800s.
> Does it make sense to have another tube pre-amp (in my case, a schiit mjolnir 2 with 6922 tubes) as input to the HA-300 MKII?
> 
> Another newbie question: While there are speaker outputs on the HA-300 MKII, can it be used to power passive desktop/bookshelf speakers?
> ...


I guess I am uncertain why you want to input another amp into the HA300? Yes you could add small speakers but you'd need quite efficient ones although I guess you are sitting very close to them. I am told the LS3/5a works well as it has a very benevolent impedance curve. I use my mk1 with full size speakers which have 96db sensitivity and they fill a reasonably sized room with sound.


----------



## Yggy

ARCXENOS said:


> Utopia was definitely the unexpected star for me, considering I didn't like it on plenty of other solid states and tubes, I suspect many Utopia owners would be very pleased with either mk1 and mk2


I swapped my Utopia plus cash for a Diana Phi a month ago. 

The Utopia was smooth, musical, well-built, easy to listen to, comfortable to wear, beautifully tuned considering the limitations of dynamic drivers, and versatile across music genres. 

It had decent bass, although it was a bit boomy compared to the textured bass of the HE6, it lacked clarity compared to Susvaras and the Diana Phi, detail compared to the HE1000SE, and sound stage compared to HD800S. 

The Utopia is an excellent all-in-one headphone and really benefits from 300b tubing but it was the weakest TOTL headphone I’ve heard with the HA-300 around or above it’s price range. 

The Utopia was the easiest to drive headphone I’ve used with the HA-300 but also the worst affected occasionally by a tiny bit of hiss and crackle at low volume levels. Maybe the MK2 has fixed the little bit of grunge the MK1 sometimes had with the Utopia. 

AK, what did Chen do to the MK2 to deal with the hiss and crackle issue HA-300 MK1 users sometimes report? I don’t usually hear it with hard-to-drive headphones but it comes and goes with easy to drive headphones like Utopias and Fostex TH900 MK2. 

Could it have been fixed on my MK1 by switching out the coupling capacitors or is that just a coincidence in terms of it coming and going? Is it due to power purity or interference? I stack my power conditioner, source, DAC, and amp so wondered if that could be causing it.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Yggy said:


> The Utopia was the easiest to drive headphone I’ve used with the HA-300 but also the worst affected occasionally by a tiny bit of hiss and crackle at low volume levels. Maybe the MK2 has fixed the little bit of grunge the MK1 sometimes had with the Utopia.



I was demoing with 4.4mm output of the mk2, didn't notice any hiss when left silent.  But unlike the z1r, I was not focusing on it, I might have to try it again to find out. Nonetheless, seeing how it took good focus for me to notice it on the z1r, I think it might be the same with the utopia


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Two related items in the "*Design and Features"* list of the opening post:

Custom make silica gel shock absorber as anti-shock buffer between critical tube components, chassis mainframe and tube socket, remove microphonic of 300B DHT effectively and provide quiet and realistic playback from sensitive headphones.
Minimize interference by reinforcing shielding of transformers, effective circuit layout and optimized circuit design


----------



## FFGuitar

dadracer2 said:


> I guess I am uncertain why you want to input another amp into the HA300? Yes you could add small speakers but you'd need quite efficient ones although I guess you are sitting very close to them. I am told the LS3/5a works well as it has a very benevolent impedance curve. I use my mk1 with full size speakers which have 96db sensitivity and they fill a reasonably sized room with sound.


Thanks for the comment on speakers, I'm just looking for a speaker to listen in a small room.
As for why an amp into HA-300? I was just wondering if it is "possible" to explore a sound that is distorted twice before coming out of my headphones


----------



## dadracer2

FFGuitar said:


> Thanks for the comment on speakers, I'm just looking for a speaker to listen in a small room.
> As for why an amp into HA-300? I was just wondering if it is "possible" to explore a sound that is distorted twice before coming out of my headphones


Yes to the speakers if you are going to be listening close to them. I still don't understand what you are trying to achieve with 2 amps...


----------



## Andykong (Apr 15, 2022)

FFGuitar said:


> I have tried the HA-300 MKII during CanJam Singapore 2022, it sounds fantastic with my HD800s.
> Does it make sense to have another tube pre-amp (in my case, a schiit mjolnir 2 with 6922 tubes) as input to the HA-300 MKII?
> 
> Another newbie question: While there are speaker outputs on the HA-300 MKII, can it be used to power passive desktop/bookshelf speakers?
> ...



Nope, it does not make sense to me to have another tube pre-amp.   You are comparing a tube preamp output to DAC line out.  The impedance is wrong, the gain is wrong, and the distortion is too high.

The speaker output of HA-300 delivers 8 watts per channel in Class A, since it is an output transformer coupled, the driving capability can be quite different from a 8wpc Class AB solid-state amplifier, Take a quick look at the reviews of single end 300B amplifiers from the speaker-based audio magazine and you'll find out they can offer a lot of fun in speaker domain:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/cayin-300b-integrated-amplifier
https://www.stereophile.com/content/thöress-300b-monoblock-power-amplifier
https://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/398/index.html


----------



## FFGuitar

Andykong said:


> Nope, it does not make sense to me to have another tube pre-amp.   You are comparing a tube preamp output to DAC line out.  The impedance is wrong, the gain is wrong, and the distortion is too high.
> 
> The speaker output of HA-300 delivers 8 watts per channel in Class A, since it is an output transformer coupled, the driving capability can be quite different from a 8wpc Class AB solid-state amplifier, Take a quick look at the reviews of single end 300B amplifiers from the speaker-based audio magazine and you'll find out they can offer a lot of fun in speaker domain:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarifications and links for some speaker fun


----------



## Z_Showmaster

ARCXENOS said:


> I am very fortunate and appreciative to have been granted a demo session on the mk2 not just with my Susvara and IER Z1R, but also the ZMF Atrium and Focal Utopia by my local dealer.
> 
> Sources tested with was my Cayin N6ii E02 lineout and if I remember correctly, Matrix Audio's X-Sabre 3* via bluetooth.
> 
> ...



Hi there, thanks for your detailed impressions. Just a quick correction, that the Matrix acted as source with Tidal Connect, not Bluetooth. Nothing lossy allowed near our crown jewel!

We can't wait for Cayin to begin shipping at the end of this month of the 300B. In anticipation, we published a video on tubes in the lead-up at a CanJam seminar, and in the segment I hope you'll find some very interesting comparisons between SS and tube amp design.

Test Tube CanJam seminar

Cheers!


----------



## ARCXENOS

Z_Showmaster said:


> Hi there, thanks for your detailed impressions. Just a quick correction, that the Matrix acted as source with Tidal Connect, not Bluetooth. Nothing lossy allowed near our crown jewel!
> 
> We can't wait for Cayin to begin shipping at the end of this month of the 300B. In anticipation, we published a video on tubes in the lead-up at a CanJam seminar, and in the segment I hope you'll find some very interesting comparisons between SS and tube amp design.
> 
> ...



Duly corrected!


----------



## Bonddam

I have a lot of 300B amps but I don't collect cars so I do keep the house to not be a hord type household. I tired the Wells amps(3 to be exact) and keep coming back to Woo. But being impressed with the Little Dot LD-y2 feel it's time to add hA-300 mk2 in black. I had a custom WA5 LE built so because they built it in 3 days I am stuck from getting the HA-300. Jack Wu must have known I would cancel so sorry for the person who just lost their place. lol I doubt that happen he probably gave me his WA5-LE which is cool because I hate breaking in amps and headphones. He couldn't build it in 3 days as I selected the upgraded caps.


Andykong said:


> Two related items in the "*Design and Features"* list of the opening post:
> 
> Custom make silica gel shock absorber as anti-shock buffer between critical tube components, chassis mainframe and tube socket, remove microphonic of 300B DHT effectively and provide quiet and realistic playback from sensitive headphones.
> Minimize interference by reinforcing shielding of transformers, effective circuit layout and optimized circuit design


What did using the rectifier type in HA-300 do over the usual 5ug4 design of other 300b amps?


----------



## s6323859

Hi Andy, the speaker output is pre amp or power amp?


----------



## dadracer2

s6323859 said:


> Hi Andy, the speaker output is pre amp or power amp?


Power amp


----------



## ARCXENOS

My DAC has an analog preamp module that has a maximum output of 11vrms, I wonder if that will be an issue


----------



## s6323859

dadracer2 said:


> Power amp


If I want to drive a passive speaker, I need a pre amp to connect HA-300 MK2 right?


----------



## Andykong

s6323859 said:


> If I want to drive a passive speaker, I need a pre amp to connect HA-300 MK2 right?


HA-300MK2 is an integrated amplifier, you don't need to add pre amp to the chain, not for speaker, and not headphones as well.


----------



## s6323859

Andykong said:


> HA-300MK2 is an integrated amplifier, you don't need to add pre amp to the chain, not for speaker, and not headphones as well.


What is the ideal voltage input from dac to HA-300MK2?


----------



## Andykong

s6323859 said:


> What is the ideal voltage input from dac to HA-300MK2?


2V RCA single-ended, 4V XLR balanced


----------



## REAL Gordon Freeman

@Andykong 
When will the HA-300B MK2 be available in Europe? 

I can see one dealer in UK having it, but I live in Denmark and would like the local agent to have it.


----------



## arijitroy2

REAL Gordon Freeman said:


> @Andykong
> When will the HA-300B MK2 be available in Europe?
> 
> I can see one dealer in UK having it, but I live in Denmark and would like the local agent to have it.


Haha same here, I live in CPH and waiting on it. Even the HA6 is backordered.


----------



## llamaluv

Andykong said:


> *THIS* is the setup at CanJam NYC 2018 when we launch the original HA-300.


I still remember that setup. I was immediately struck by how appealing I thought it sounded with the Susvara. Fond memories.


----------



## llamaluv

Yggy said:


> I got my HA-300 MK1 Mundorf coupling capacitors replaced with a matched pair of V-Cap CuTF 0.22 uF 600 Vdc capacitors by Stuart Smith at Berkshire Guitar Amplifier Repairs today.


Congrats! I'm excited for you. And totally agree with how worthwhile rolling the caps can be.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Forgot to mention, I have preordered the mk2 a few days ago and will be eagerly awaiting it, as well as possibly changing my DAC to something that could better fit its input.

In the meantime I got to find something to replace my rack's glass panel to something that could hold beyond 30 kg just in case  . The rack's glass is rated to hold up to 30kg,  I bet after accounting for cables, thats gonna be a risky game to play


----------



## Yggy

Definitely err on the side of caution. The HA-300 weight is all at the back of the main unit so it’s not evenly spread. You have to be careful picking it up.


----------



## Yggy

llamaluv said:


> Congrats! I'm excited for you. And totally agree with how worthwhile rolling the caps can be.


Thanks. I love my HA-300, it just gets better and better. The only issue I have is occasional and slight hiss / static with my most sensitive headphones. It sounds like a few bubbles off water evaporating on a stove. You can only hear it at very low volume levels and it comes and goes. 

I might take it to an amp specialist to work out what can be done to isolate and eliminate it. AK mentioned that the HA-300 designer did something to the MK2 to reduce this? 

Anybody else notice this? It was referred to in a review of the Utopia with the HA-300 once. I’ve mainly noticed it with Utopias and Fostex TH900 Mk2.


----------



## REAL Gordon Freeman

ARCXENOS said:


> Forgot to mention, I have preordered the mk2 a few days ago and will be eagerly awaiting it, as well as possibly changing my DAC to something that could better fit its input.
> 
> In the meantime I got to find something to replace my rack's glass panel to something that could hold beyond 30 kg just in case  . The rack's glass is rated to hold up to 30kg,  I bet after accounting for cables, thats gonna be a risky game to play


Very nice! Where did you get it?


----------



## ARCXENOS

REAL Gordon Freeman said:


> Very nice! Where did you get it?



From my local distributor in Singapore, Zeppelin & Co (you can see their posts a few messages up)


----------



## llamaluv

Yggy said:


> The only issue I have is occasional and slight hiss / static with my most sensitive headphones. It sounds like a few bubbles off water evaporating on a stove. You can only hear it at very low volume levels and it comes and goes.


I've heard variations of this on occasion as well, and was always able to isolate it to specific tubes. Oftentimes, re-seating the tubes or swapping their positions could make it go away.


----------



## Yggy

Yes, re-seating or swapping tube positions can help. I’ve tried that. 

I find that gently touching the tubes if they’re not too hot or turning the amp off for 5-10 minutes and letting it cool down can help. 

The stock Shuguang WE6SN7 tubes are quieter and less microphonic than my NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases but they aren’t as clear or etched. 

I’ve tried switching out one set of 6SN7, 300b and 22DE4 tubes at a time from rolled to stock but I can’t eliminate all fizzle with sensitive headphones. 

Whatever causes it accumulates like static and seems to be able to be partially discharged by touching or moving tubes. Sometimes the fizzle burns itself out and disappears completely. 

I notice it less with hard to drive headphones like Susvaras, HE-6, and AKG K1000.


----------



## Andykong

Ready ... Get Set ..... Go！
























Surprised to see Silver HA-300MK2 in the aging room?   Yes, the HA-300MK2 is available in both Black and Silver, so you better specify your color when you place an order.


----------



## Erwinatm

How long preorder time?


----------



## rmsanger

wow that is beautiful Andy!


----------



## Palyodgree

I see a black MK2 with my name on it …


----------



## Whitigir

Somebody can really solder with his eyes closed 🤪


----------



## 111MilesToGo (Apr 30, 2022)

Hi @Andykong, a question, please. Most probably I did not search enough for the pieces of information I am looking for. I couldn‘t find it, neither on Cayin‘s (https://en.cayin.cn) or the German distributor‘s (https://Cayin.com) websites, nor in this thread. Please, what are the dimensions (W, D, H) and the weight of the HA-300Mk2?

One more piece of feedback: Maybe it is just me and my taste, but: I am not exactly liking the new https://en.cayin.cn website. It is painfully slow, and I have a hard time finding what I want. I spent several minutes on searching for the HA-300Mk2 there, but didn‘t find anything. What am I missing or doing wrong?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## mfgillia (Apr 30, 2022)

111MilesToGo said:


> Hi @Andykong, a question, please. Most probably I did not search enough for the pieces of information I am looking for. I couldn‘t find it, neither on Cayin‘s (https://en.cayin.cn) or the German distributor‘s (https://Cayin.com) websites, nor in this thread. Please, what are the dimensions (W, D, H) and the weight of the HA-300Mk2?
> 
> One more piece of feedback: Maybe it is just me and my taste, but: I am not exactly liking the new https://en.cayin.cn website. It is painfully slow, and I have a hard time finding what I want. I spent several minutes on searching for the HA-300Mk2 there, but didn‘t find anything. What am I missing or doing wrong?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Check out Musicteck - their website is easier to navigate and description is more thorough. Listed dimensions are 286mm x 368mm x 210mm; 19Kg (amplifier) and 150mm x 345mm x 210mm; 10Kg (power supply).

https://shop.musicteck.com/collecti...be-headphone-amplifier?variant=39732463960126


----------



## 111MilesToGo

mfgillia said:


> Check out Musicteck - their website is easier to navigate and description is more thorough. Listed dimensions are 286mm x 368mm x 210mm; 19Kg (amplifier) and 150mm x 345mm x 210mm; 10Kg (power supply).
> 
> https://shop.musicteck.com/collecti...be-headphone-amplifier?variant=39732463960126


Thanks for both the recommendation and the information!


----------



## 111MilesToGo

Sorry, @Andykong, I saw it just now. Your first post in this thread does have the same table musicteck has.


----------



## TomKorn




----------



## ARCXENOS

Out of the box, as good as I remembered during my demo session 

Came with a pair of gloves, cleaning cloth, extra fuses, and tons of protective foam.

Glad I decided to shift my table instead of getting a new rack panel replacement, the weight is no joke


----------



## Andykong

Erwinatm said:


> How long preorder time?



It depends on the order status of your local Cayin dealer, we have fulfilled all the orders we received already, so theoretically there is no pre-order time right now.


----------



## Andykong

Palyodgree said:


> I see a black MK2 with my name on it …



Do you mean the third row, second from left on the last photo?


----------



## Andykong

111MilesToGo said:


> Sorry, @Andykong, I saw it just now. Your first post in this thread does have the same table musicteck has.



Never mind, tell me what you need to know if you have further questions, I'll try my best to accommodate.


----------



## Andykong

ARCXENOS said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And it will get better tomorrow, and even better the day after tomorrow. 

You mentioned a DAC will be coming in, what is your plan for that?


----------



## ARCXENOS (May 7, 2022)

Andykong said:


> And it will get better tomorrow, and even better the day after tomorrow.
> 
> You mentioned a DAC will be coming in, what is your plan for that?



Already like it alot, it getting better will be a great thing!

I am aware of the official recommended DAC output being 4vrms, but I have been told that the dCS 6v was not an issue, however I should stay between 4-6 vrms. I also didn't think the Matrix Audio X-Sabre 3 5vrms output was an issue when I demoed it.

I liked the Spring 3 KTE sound signature but unfortunately I had one with the preamp (for an ahb2), so I am taking this chance to possibly upgrade to the holo may (5.8 vrms)


----------



## Erwinatm

Andykong said:


> It depends on the order status of your local Cayin dealer, we have fulfilled all the orders we received already, so theoretically there is no pre-order time right now.


They promised to deliver by eof May...hope it ll be on time...

Thanks Andy


----------



## Erwinatm

ARCXENOS said:


> Already like it alot, it getting better will be a great thing!
> 
> I am aware of the official recommended DAC output being 4vrms, but I have been told that the dCS 6v was not an issue, however I should stay between 4-6 vrms. I also didn't think the Matrix Audio X-Sabre 3 5vrms output was an issue when I demoed it.
> 
> I liked the Spring 3 KTE sound signature but unfortunately I had one with the preamp (for an ahb2), so I am taking this chance to possibly upgrade to the holo may (5.8 vrms)


I always use Bartok 2V output for my stereo system and especially for headphones. I find it smoother and more refined edges. 

Curious to know also, how Cayin react with 2 and 6 v out from dcs..


----------



## REAL Gordon Freeman

What are the upgrades worth mentioning between MKI and MKII?
And how do you tell the visual diffrence between the two?


----------



## ARCXENOS

REAL Gordon Freeman said:


> What are the upgrades worth mentioning between MKI and MKII?
> And how do you tell the visual diffrence between the two?



The extra 4.4mm jack would be the most visually apparent difference, the VU meter as well. Mk2 is also inscribed on the amp


----------



## Andykong

REAL Gordon Freeman said:


> What are the upgrades worth mentioning between MKI and MKII?
> And how do you tell the visual diffrence between the two?



I have listed the differences between the original HA-300 and the newly announced HA-300MK2 *HERE*.  Check it out if you want to know the difference between the two models.


----------



## Zachik

Andykong said:


> I have listed the differences between the original HA-300 and the newly announced HA-300MK2 *HERE*.  Check it out if you want to know the difference between the two models.


Andy - if you add it to the 1st post, you'll save yourself posting this link at least 7 more times...


----------



## Andykong

Zachik said:


> Andy - if you add it to the 1st post, you'll save yourself posting this link at least 7 more times...



Just did that.  Let's see if someone asked again next week.


----------



## Andykong

llamaluv said:


> I still remember that setup. I was immediately struck by how appealing I thought it sounded with the Susvara. Fond memories.



Wow, so we meet in person a long time ago? 

The 2018 CanJam is one of the toughest events I have managed, but it is also one of the most fruitful and encouraging audio shows for Cayin Personal Audio.  Cayin didn't draw any serious attention from CanJam visitors before that show, so the demo rooms were very quiet most of the time (especially on the first day).


----------



## Andykong

ARCXENOS said:


> Already like it alot, it getting better will be a great thing!
> 
> I am aware of the official recommended DAC output being 4vrms, but I have been told that the dCS 6v was not an issue, however I should stay between 4-6 vrms. I also didn't think the Matrix Audio X-Sabre 3 5vrms output was an issue when I demoed it.
> 
> I liked the Spring 3 KTE sound signature but unfortunately I had one with the preamp (for an ahb2), so I am taking this chance to possibly upgrade to the holo may (5.8 vrms)





Erwinatm said:


> I always use Bartok 2V output for my stereo system and especially for headphones. I find it smoother and more refined edges.
> 
> Curious to know also, how Cayin react with 2 and 6 v out from dcs..


Yes, 6V balanced input is fine, but I do advise you to try out different outputs and determine the best setup for your headphones.

In some cases, a higher input level will limit the headroom of the amplifier.  I barely remember I had advised another member along this line earlier.  As Erwinatm has mentioned, sometimes setting the DAC to a lower output level works better.  For instance, you can drive the headphone to the same loud level with 6V + 11 o'clock volume, or 2V+ 2 o'clock volume, I probably prefer the latter but I need to try it out to be sure.


----------



## dadracer2

Hi @Andykong do you have a likely date for the Headfonics review of the HA300 mk2 that you mentioned previously?


----------



## zach915m

Cayin HA300b MK II is in the ZMF Shop and available on our website. We have units in stock in US Voltage (120v) ready to ship.  Some photo's I snapped off as well.  

Really loving having the 300b sound in the house!  Will comment more later and make a YouTube video with my impressions from unboxing the amp to dialing in the sound with tubes and such.

https://shop.zmfheadphones.com/collections/amps-dacs/products/cayin-ha-300b-mk-ii


----------



## Andykong

zach915m said:


> Cayin HA300b MK II is in the ZMF Shop and available on our website. We have units in stock in US Voltage (120v) ready to ship.  Some photo's I snapped off as well.
> 
> Really loving having the 300b sound in the house!  Will comment more later and make a YouTube video with my impressions from unboxing the amp to dialing in the sound with tubes and such.
> 
> https://shop.zmfheadphones.com/collections/amps-dacs/products/cayin-ha-300b-mk-ii



Wow, that's a quick move ... if we count this as a follow-up of Canjam Singapore 2022.

Or if we consider this as a move we discussed all the way back in AXPONA, this is something I have been looking forward to since 2018.

Looking forward to your impression and YouTube video, I am sure you'll like our 300B implementation.


----------



## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> Hi @Andykong do you have a likely date for the Headfonics review of the HA300 mk2 that you mentioned previously?




A comprehensive review of a high-end desktop amplifier will take around 2 months, at least, so you can expect the reviews online by late June.


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> A comprehensive review of a high-end desktop amplifier will take around 2 months, at least, so you can expect the reviews online by late June.


That's great, no need for them to rush if they are going to create a comprehensive review.


----------



## marcusd

dadracer2 said:


> That's great, no need for them to rush if they are going to create a comprehensive review.



I actually have that combo here in the office that @zach915m has so watch out for our Atrium review very soon as I might be referencing it


----------



## Andykong (May 12, 2022)

marcusd said:


> I actually have that combo here in the office that @zach915m has so watch out for our Atrium review very soon as I might be referencing it


That's a nice preempted, so we should watch out Headfonics' Antrium review because you might include Antrium + HA-300MK2 in this review.


----------



## Z_Showmaster

zach915m said:


> Cayin HA300b MK II is in the ZMF Shop and available on our website. We have units in stock in US Voltage (120v) ready to ship.  Some photo's I snapped off as well.
> 
> Really loving having the 300b sound in the house!  Will comment more later and make a YouTube video with my impressions from unboxing the amp to dialing in the sound with tubes and such.
> 
> https://shop.zmfheadphones.com/collections/amps-dacs/products/cayin-ha-300b-mk-ii


Welcome aboard! 🤝


----------



## jambaj0e

Yeah! ZMF has it in stock! Can't wait to hear about it. I highly recommend upgrading to the Western Electric 300b tubes, too.


----------



## steve468

I can attest to ZMFs being a great match with the HA-300 (mk 1 in my case), in particular the VO. My favourite thing about the VO is the sense of 3d space it creates, with a romantic, realistic tone. Does that description remind anyone of a certain excessively rare overly expensive tube type that we love all the same?

Boy, I’m really wondering what the Atrium sounds like on 300b tubes…my wallet is quaking in fear.


----------



## rmsanger

I can imagine the ZMF VC + HA-300 mk2 being a match made in heaven!


----------



## Ysound (May 15, 2022)

@Andykong Are the silver finishes unit available for immediate shipment? Thanks


----------



## dadracer2

Ysound said:


> @Andykong Are the silver finishes unit available for immediate shipment? Thanks


I believe so. There was a photo a few pages back showing them in production.


----------



## Ysound

dadracer2 said:


> I believe so. There was a photo a few pages back showing them in production.


Thanks, I ordered my silver unit already and it's on it way to me.


----------



## dadracer2

Ysound said:


> Thanks, I ordered my silver unit already and it's on it way to me.


Enjoy! What headphones will you be using with it may I ask?


----------



## Andykong

Ysound said:


> @Andykong Are the silver finishes unit available for immediate shipment? Thanks


Yes, they are ready to ship.


----------



## Ysound

dadracer2 said:


> Enjoy! What headphones will you be using with it may I ask?


Susvara


----------



## Andykong

The Munich High-End 2022 is round the corner. Unfortunately, the Cayin team can't attend this event in person but we have teamed up with two headphone brands to demonstrate HA-300MK2 at their booth.  If you are going to attend the Munich High End and high-end tube headphone amplifier is under your radar, please drop by Meze Audio (D03) and Spirit Torino booth at Hall 1, D zone to check out Cayin HA-300MK2 in person.  

At Meze Audio Booth: HA-300MK2 with iDAP-6 and IDAC-6MK2
At Spirit Torino booth: HA-300MK2 with N8ii


----------



## dadracer2

Ysound said:


> Susvara


That should be a good combination. I haven't heard the Susvara in some time now, but I do remember thinking it was the best HiFiMan headphone I had heard and at that same time I had tried out the Shangri La twins and a number of their other planars.


----------



## jambaj0e

Andykong said:


> The Munich High-End 2022 is round the corner. Unfortunately, the Cayin team can't attend this event in person but we have teamed up with two headphone brands to demonstrate HA-300MK2 at their booth.  If you are going to attend the Munich High End and high-end tube headphone amplifier is under your radar, please drop by Meze Audio (D03) and Spirit Torino booth at Hall 1, D zone to check out Cayin HA-300MK2 in person.
> 
> At Meze Audio Booth: HA-300MK2 with iDAP-6 and IDAC-6MK2
> At Spirit Torino booth: HA-300MK2 with N8ii



Is Cayin going to have the HA-300mk2 at any United States event this year or next?


----------



## Andykong

jambaj0e said:


> Is Cayin going to have the HA-300mk2 at any United States event this year or next?



Very likely, but there are uncertainties since our China-based team can't travel to US right now, we need to rely on our US dealers.


----------



## Andykong

This video is a bit long, but we have managed to squeeze out a lot of design and engineering detail of HA-300MK2 from our Chief Engineer.  If you wanted to find out more about our TOTL tube headphone amplifier, check out our latest interview video:


----------



## Marshallrocks (May 17, 2022)

Hello to everyone!

I"m planning to buy this beast in the next few months, well maybe  the 12 next months  and besides questions about next availability here (I live in France), please I would have two technical questions.

First, will this amp be capped and power limited as mobile devices are for the EU/UK market? I don't think so but we never can tell with all those strict regulations.

Secondly, even though I just ordered the Denon AH-D9200 (my very first real audiophile headphones), I have a Sony MDR-V6 and a MDR-7506, the two famous monitoring.studio headphones. They're rated at 63 ohms, so logically the lowest setting on the Cayin would fit them. The problem is those cans have a maximum power input of 1000mw, and the Cayin outputs 1200mw on this low impedance setting. I'm afraid this could blow them, so I would like to know whether the 1200mw output power can possibly be reached with any impedance can for this low setting (any headphones from 12 to 64 ohms), or only on one specific impedance rated headphones? Besides, do the VU-meters allow to control the output juice fed to the headphones and evaluate if we are in the safe zone or not? So it would still be possible to drive them before they hit the 1000mw mark.

Thank you very much by advance!


----------



## Andykong (May 17, 2022)

Marshallrocks said:


> Hello to everyone!
> 
> I"m planning to buy this beast in the next few months, well maybe  the 12 next months  and besides questions about next availability here (I live in France), please I would have two technical questions.
> 
> ...



The 1200mw per channel is the officially rated output of the amplifier, you can only achieve that when you turn the volume all the way up.  With headphones like MDR-V6 and  MDR-7506, both rated at 106 dB/W/m, I don't think you will ever achieve anywhere near 1000mW with HA-300MK2 in regular usage.  You probably need to turn the volume up even when the headphone is playing at a very loud level already and that's an abusive usage. 

Just trust your ear, and enjoy them at a comfortable sound level,  I don't think you need to worry about the 1000mW mark.  To tell you the truth, in my experience as a headphone hobbyist, I have seen more headphones being toasted because of underpowered than headphones getting blown because of an overpowered amplifier.


----------



## Marshallrocks

You're right, I totally forgot about the sensitivity thing! These headphones would blast about 133db with 1000mw output, needless to say, I'm not that used to such loud a volume...!

By the way, was the Denon AH-D9200 already known to be a good match for HA-300MK1?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Marshallrocks said:


> You're right, I totally forgot about the sensitivity thing! These headphones would blast about 133db with 1000mw output, needless to say, I'm not that used to such loud a volume...!
> 
> By the way, was the Denon AH-D9200 already known to be a good match for HA-300MK1?


Actually they would probably break before reaching that volume. 


Andykong said:


> To tell you the truth, in my experience as a headphone hobbyist, I have seen more headphones being *toasted because of underpowered* than headphones getting blown because of an overpowered amplifier


Hey Andy what do you mean by the bolded part. I am slightly confused as to how you toast a headphone by underpowering it.


----------



## Marshallrocks (May 17, 2022)

Besides, I'm a little surprised it is advised to experiment between different impedance settings with the same particular headphones, I had always assumed impedance matching was required. Doesn't frequency response suffer if you plug in a low impedance can and switch to the medium setting? I have to say on my Little Dot MKIVSE with low impedance headphones, I never pushed the gain up; I love the way you can progressively crank the volume on smooth and large steps, and the tubes seem to come alive the harder you push them.


----------



## andreas7

Great Amp


----------



## Andykong

Marshallrocks said:


> Besides, I'm a little surprised it is advised to experiment between different impedance settings with the same particular headphones, I had always assumed impedance matching was required. Doesn't frequency response suffer if you plug in a low impedance can and switch to the medium setting? I have to say on my Little Dot MKIVSE with low impedance headphones, I never pushed the gain up; I love the way you can progressively crank the volume on smooth and large steps, and the tubes seem to come alive the harder you push them.



We are merely saying that it is *technically safe* to use other impedance settings with your headphone.  The impedance setting will change the sound signature of your headphone, we implemented what we consider as an accurate presentation, but we cannot dictate that as the only viable presentation, user can make up their mind according to their preference.


----------



## Palyodgree (May 17, 2022)

Andykong said:


> This video is a bit long, but we have managed to squeeze out a lot of design and engineering detail of HA-300MK2 from our Chief Engineer.  If you wanted to find out more about our TOTL tube headphone amplifier, check out our latest interview video:



This in-depth interview is well worth your time , my initial thoughts of the MK2 were just a new volume control and offering of a black chassis however there’s so much more  ,as good as the Mk1 is I’m not going to wait for any review comparisons I trust the ears of Cayins chief engineer , not to forget 30 years of designIng and manufacturing 300B amplifiers is a story in itself…


----------



## Andykong

ThanatosVI said:


> Hey Andy what do you mean by the bolded part. I am slightly confused as to how you toast a headphone by underpowering it.


An underpowered headphone amplifier means the amplifier is not powerful enough to drive the headphone.  When the amp is not capable of feeding adequate power to the headphone, it will clip, and clipping is bad and dangerous to your headphone (or speakers).  

Copy from *Wiki*: Clipping is a form of waveform distortion that occurs when an amplifier is overdriven and attempts to deliver an output voltage or current beyond its maximum capability.  As you can see from the photo in Wiki, when an amplifier is clipping, it will produce square waves at the upper and lower end limit.  The square way upper energy can blow the drivers of a speaker, be it tweeter or woofer, and headphone drivers are prone to the same conditions.  

Additional references *HERE *and *HERE*, but you should be able to google more examples of how clipping can damage a driver.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Andykong said:


> An underpowered headphone amplifier means the amplifier is not powerful enough to drive the headphone.  When the amp is not capable of feeding adequate power to the headphone, it will clip, and clipping is bad and dangerous to your headphone (or speakers).
> 
> Copy from *Wiki*: Clipping is a form of waveform distortion that occurs when an amplifier is overdriven and attempts to deliver an output voltage or current beyond its maximum capability.  As you can see from the photo in Wiki, when an amplifier is clipping, it will produce square waves at the upper and lower end limit.  The square way upper energy can blow the drivers of a speaker, be it tweeter or woofer, and headphone drivers are prone to the same conditions.
> 
> Additional references *HERE *and *HERE*, but you should be able to google more examples of how clipping can damage a driver.


Thank you 
There is always more to learn


----------



## zach915m

Andykong said:


> Very likely, but there are uncertainties since our China-based team can't travel to US right now, we need to rely on our US dealers.


We will be at CanJam Chicago with at least the HA-300 MK II and IHA-6.


----------



## Andykong

zach915m said:


> We will be at CanJam Chicago with at least the HA-300 MK II and IHA-6.



That's fantastic.  I was hoping that you'll solve my problem since Chicago is your hometown.


----------



## FFGuitar

Andykong said:


> This video is a bit long, but we have managed to squeeze out a lot of design and engineering detail of HA-300MK2 from our Chief Engineer.  If you wanted to find out more about our TOTL tube headphone amplifier, check out our latest interview video:




Great to see a video like this, where the engineer talks about the considerations on how the product is designed and improved based on the last iteration.
As a fellow engineer by trade, I appreciate it is not easy for an organization to arrange a video like this.

The last question on the Chen's  "ideal" sound signature is really interesting and hints at a new product on Cayin's 30th anniversary.

Since the HA-300MK2 is a newly launched flagship...
By deduction, it shouldn't be another tube amplifier. 
Perhaps a DAC?


----------



## Ysound

Received the HA-300 MK2 today.
Very hefty and beautifully finishes.
Initial impressions is positive.


----------



## Andykong

FFGuitar said:


> Great to see a video like this, where the engineer talks about the considerations on how the product is designed and improved based on the last iteration.
> As a fellow engineer by trade, I appreciate it is not easy for an organization to arrange a video like this.
> 
> The last question on the Chen's  "ideal" sound signature is really interesting and hints at a new product on Cayin's 30th anniversary.
> ...



Cayin will launch a special product on every 5th or10th anniversary.

*CAYIN A-845 PRO 25th Anniversary Integrated Amplifier*

*CAYIN A-88T 20th Anniversary Integrated Amplifier*


----------



## ThanatosVI

Andykong said:


> Cayin will launch a special product on every 5th or10th anniversary.
> 
> *CAYIN A-845 PRO 25th Anniversary Integrated Amplifier*
> 
> *CAYIN A-88T 20th Anniversary Integrated Amplifier*


The A-845 Pro looks dope!
I wonder how suitable the 30th Anniversary amp will be for headphones


----------



## ARCXENOS

Ysound said:


> Received the HA-300 MK2 today.
> Very hefty and beautifully finishes.
> Initial impressions is positive.


very matching setup!


----------



## FFGuitar

Andykong said:


> I am also a bit peculiar with the output level of TT2 at DAC mode.  I believe 2V single-ended and 4V Balance is the de facto level among recording and home audio equipments, but Chord decided to raise the bar to 2.5V and 5V.



Suppose I have a DAC that has a 5v output, are there anything to consider when pairing  with the HA-300 MK2?


----------



## Andykong

FFGuitar said:


> Suppose I have a DAC that has a 5v output, are there anything to consider when pairing  with the HA-300 MK2?


5V is the single-ended or balanced output?


----------



## Andykong

HA-300MK2 at Munich


----------



## FFGuitar

Andykong said:


> 5V is the single-ended or balanced output?


5v is the XLR output, 2.5v RCA output. 
Was looking at holo audio spring


----------



## ARCXENOS

FFGuitar said:


> 5v is the XLR output, 2.5v RCA output.
> Was looking at holo audio spring



I am using the Holo May (5.8vrms) now, I do not hear any clipping, or at least to my perception level and comfortable listening volume. Of course as Andy mentioned before, volume control is more limited for each step.

I am not sure if there are any other ramifications, but sound quality is not one of them IMO.


----------



## Andykong

FFGuitar said:


> 5v is the XLR output, 2.5v RCA output.
> Was looking at holo audio spring



That should be fine technically.  So far we have favorable reports with up to 6V balanced output, I'll be skeptical and prefer verification through audition if input levels go beyond that.


----------



## REAL Gordon Freeman

Ysound said:


> Received the HA-300 MK2 today.
> Very hefty and beautifully finishes.
> Initial impressions is positive.


Love your clean setup! 
What brand of isolation platform are you using, I have not seen those before?


----------



## llamaluv (May 21, 2022)

Anyone else paying attention to power cables going into the amp? I wanted to share my own recent experience:

Since a couple days ago, I've started using a *Furutech DPS-4.1 *(with Furutech "FI-48 NCF Rhodium" connectors) with my OG HA-300. I actually got this cable to use with my speaker amp, but since the speaker amp is out on loan at the moment, I figured I'd connect it to the tube amp in the meantime.

I've been really impressed. This has led to greater dynamics, greater contrast between "light" and "dark", more speed, space, width, detail, and clarity. And less syrup. It just sounds holistically better and more "opened-up".

My outgoing cable is a Wireworld Electra 7, which sounds pretty much the same to my ears as every other sub-$200 cable I've ever tried, for what it's worth. I've used this cable as my "default" for various components because it does not offend. For the longest, I vaguely figured that bar ought to be good enough. The problem which I'm only appreciating properly now is that while it does not offend, it also does not impress.

On tonality, the DPS-4.1 is arguably brighter than the Wireworld Electra. Either that, or it just seems that way for sounding altogether more vivid. Bass extension has also improved. This brighter sound works out great in combination with the meatier, deeper-sounding PSVane ACME 300B's. But not as much with the Takatsuki TA300's, where it ends up bending the stick too far, making the Taks sound a little too "delicate" and unsubstantial. Synergy, and all that.

I actually introduced a separate DPS-4.1 cable into my DAC a couple weeks ago (replacing a Wireworld Electra 7 cable here, too), which made for a big improvement in the same ways as described above. I feel like if the DAC cable swap improved the sound of the HA-300 by a factor of "n", the additional amp cable swap has made for an extra improvement of "2n".

Something that I was not at all expecting or anticipating is that these changes have led me to strongly favor the Susvara over the two other headphones I have at the moment. Up til now I would use the Susvara with the HA-300 occasionally for comfy, passive listening. But the Susvara on the HA-300 now commands my full attention. In contrast, the Meze Elite, which I'd been favoring on the HA-300 for the past few months, sounds better as well but has been leapfrogged by the Susvara big-time. My interpretation of that is that this recent improvement has revealed the limits to which the Elite can scale.

To round out this portrait, let me mention that my HA-300 has Duelund caps, my DAC is the Bartok, I use a Niagara 1200 power conditioner, and I listen to mostly acoustic, dark-and-smokey jazz type fare...


----------



## ZzZzZzZ

After a long wait few of the folks have might have heard the Cayin HA-300 MK2 by now. So, any thought on pairing of Cayin HA-300 MK2 with Susvara ? 

How does Cayin HA-300 MK2 perform when compared with Auris Nirvana or Feliks Envy, if any one has experienced these amps with Susvara kindly do post your thoughts. 
I am really looking into various tube amps threads now a days, to find one for my Susvara and would be buying one soon.
Thanks in advance for all the valuable advices !!


----------



## Palyodgree (May 21, 2022)

llamaluv this past month I’ve been going through a wire exchange after a loan of Audience FrontRow USB cable , a pair of their XLR interconnects including two power cords midline Audience brand .My HA -300 is still stock no mods nor tube changes and I’m still using the HiFiman 1000se with a unwondering eye on the Susvaras .
Within my budget I’m experiencing the best sound quality playback I have ever experienced in my home , The 1000se have taken on a new life of sorts maybe a similar experience you had with the Susvaras and HA300 .
.I don’t exactly know how I would explain that  other then start with synergy ,..My recent purchase of a Rockna WaveDream Net server and WaveDream XLR dac was beat out .
I have considered selling my HA 300 for the MK 2 in black just to match my other components though I think I’ll wait a while all is sounding so spectacular .


----------



## Ysound

REAL Gordon Freeman said:


> Love your clean setup!
> What brand of isolation platform are you using, I have not seen those before?


----------



## Ysound

Thanks. They are _Harmonic Resolution_ Systems (HRS)


----------



## ARCXENOS

llamaluv said:


> Anyone else paying attention to power cables going into the amp



I am agnostic in terms of cables (and not yet ready to dabble in them, I still want to acquire a Focal Utopia first), but would the cables in question be the power cables to the PSU? What about the umbilical cable from the PSU to the amp itself?


----------



## llamaluv

ARCXENOS said:


> I am agnostic in terms of cables (and not yet ready to dabble in them, I still want to acquire a Focal Utopia first), but would the cables in question be the power cables to the PSU? What about the umbilical cable from the PSU to the amp itself?


The power cable yea.

IMO, agnosticism is good. Audiophiles should be guided by their real, lived sense-experiences.


----------



## littlexx26 (May 23, 2022)

test drive today with my n8ii as a source. very confident presentation. and it pushes my ier-z1r to another level. surprisingly medium gain sounds best


----------



## Palyodgree (May 23, 2022)

llamaluv said:


> The power cable yea.
> 
> IMO, agnosticism is good. Audiophiles should be guided by their real, lived sense-experiences.


Wholeheartedly agree,……“Wire“ the most confiscatory priced items in this hobby and because most in this hobby including myself are and or have been push overs influenced by the trade there is most definitely something to it . I have a drawer full of Canare wire , basic ac cords including printer cable if any of it equaled some of the labeled audio wire I tried I’m a cheap skate and wouldn’t think twice about keeping a $5.00 wire in my system however sometimes components do react in a very good way to after market wire for whatever reasons.


----------



## mfgillia (May 24, 2022)

littlexx26 said:


> test drive today with my n8ii as a source. very confident presentation. and it pushes my ier-z1r to another level. surprisingly *medium gain sounds best*


Have a question - is it true that technically this amp doesn't have separate gain controls and instead the different gains are tied to the three different impedance settings?


----------



## littlexx26

mfgillia said:


> Have a question - is it true that technically this amp doesn't have separate gain controls and instead the different gains are tied to the three different impedance settings?


you are correct. however, my n8ii has 3 steps line out output level. so not a problem


----------



## mfgillia

littlexx26 said:


> you are correct. however, my n8ii has 3 steps line out output level. so not a problem


Thanks - I was a tad bit confused after reading the manual on page 4, which provided different wattage and impedance specs at L, M and H settings.


----------



## Andykong

mfgillia said:


> Have a question - is it true that technically this amp doesn't have separate gain controls and instead the different gains are tied to the three different impedance settings?



I have explained the Impedance matched output *HERE*.  Maybe that'll clarify the different between impedance setting and gain control.


----------



## mfgillia

Andykong said:


> I have explained the Impedance matched output *HERE*.  Maybe that'll clarify the different between impedance setting and gain control.


Much thanks - This section was especially helpful: 

"Please do not confuse headphone impedance matching output with gain control in Solid State amplifier. Although higher headphone impedance will deliver higher output power, but that’s because we are driving the amplifier at a harder load. Gain control is one of the biggest different between Solid-state and Vacuum tube amplifiers. You can adjust the gain ratio in SS amp to alter the output power, but you won't find gain control in an all-tube amplifier. The HA-300MK2 has two stages of amplification (6SN7 and 300B) and output transformers. None of these allow us to adjust "gain ratio" like a solid state amplifier. Therefore H/M/L headphone impedance setting is technically different from High/Mid/Low gain control in solid state amplifier. The headphone impedance setting will introduce bigger change to sound signature than changing the gain of a solid state amplifier."


----------



## ARCXENOS

Not planning on tube rolling yet, still enjoying the stock setup. But I would like to make sure about the compatibility of tubes that are labelled as 6SN7, are they synonymous with 6SN7GT in this case, as per the instruction manual?


----------



## Wes S

ARCXENOS said:


> Not planning on tube rolling yet, still enjoying the stock setup. But I would like to make sure about the compatibility of tubes that are labelled as 6SN7, are they synonymous with 6SN7GT in this case, as per the instruction manual?


Yes, the 6SN7 is the same thing as a 6SN7GT, and is compatible.


----------



## lithiumnk

Has anyone tried Audiotechnica ADX5000 with 300mk2 ?
Any impressions ?
Thanks


----------



## justanut

Finally! But ran out of space on my desk.. thankfully the cables were long enough to split this way haha..

How many hours should I burn these bad boys for? 😬


----------



## mfgillia

justanut said:


> Finally! But ran out of space on my desk.. thankfully the cables were long enough to split this way haha..
> 
> How many hours should I burn these bad boys for? 😬


I'm sure someone will chime in with something like +500 hours. Personally though, mine sounded awesome immediately. Any incremental improvement over time was hard to really recognize versus the huge change compared to what I've been using for the past year.


----------



## Shinsengumi

mfgillia said:


> I'm sure someone will chime in with something like +500 hours. Personally though, mine sounded awesome immediately. Any incremental improvement over time was hard to really recognize versus the huge change compared to what I've been using for the past year.


I know it is a subjective question but what would you choose (and why) if you had VC and a mid-tier OTL amp and you only could afford one of these: a pair of Atrium or a Cayin HA-300 to pair with your VC?


----------



## mfgillia (Jun 2, 2022)

Shinsengumi said:


> I know it is a subjective question but what would you choose (and why) if you had VC and a mid-tier OTL amp and you only could afford one of these: a pair of Atrium or a Cayin HA-300 to pair with your VC?


If I was happy with the OTL then probably the Atrium. IMHO the combination of VC and Atrium complement each other pretty well whereas I'm guessing the Cayin would likely replace the OTL the majority of the time. Alternatively, you may actually find you prefer OTLs with ZMFs like some others on the VC and Atrium forums.

On the other hand, if you have or plan to obtain other non-300 ohm headphones then the Cayin might be the better pick as it appears able to drive most anything from IEMs to power hungry planars whereas the OTL most likely cannot.

With that said, if you somewhat really want the Cayin then may be best just to wait 6 months or so and save up. Then you can get both and save some decent cash via the bundled discount from ZMF.


----------



## Shinsengumi

mfgillia said:


> If I was happy with the OTL then probably the Atrium. IMHO the combination of VC and Atrium complement each other pretty well whereas I'm guessing the Cayin would likely replace the OTL the majority of the time. Alternatively, you may actually find you prefer OTLs with ZMFs like some others on the VC and Atrium forums.
> 
> On the other hand, if you have or plan to obtain other non-300 ohm headphones then the Cayin might be the better pick as it appears able to drive most anything from IEMs to power hungry planars whereas the OTL most likely cannot.
> 
> With that said, if you somewhat really want the Cayin then may be best just to wait 6 months of so and save up. Then you can get both and save some decent cash via the bundled discount from ZMF.


Thanks a lot for your opinion! There is no end of possibilities☺️Cayin would replace the OTL amp and I will probably not obtain a non-300 ohm headphone in the future. So everything points in Atrium’s direction.


----------



## Trickness

I’ve been reading this thread way too much over the past couple of years since hearing the OG at  the Canjam intro in NYC. Couldn’t resist when I saw that Musictek had the black MK2 in stock - it’s coming tomorrow 

The OG HE-300 was a great match to the Meze Empyrean cans (which I got a couple of months after hearing these headphones with this amp at CanJam) -  hoping the sound here at home is as good as my memory from those years ago! I’ve got DNA Stratus as my main amp so I’m very interested to hear the contrast between these two rigs/2A3 & 300B.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 3, 2022)

Trickness said:


> I’ve been reading this thread way too much over the past couple of years since hearing the OG at  the Canjam intro in NYC. Couldn’t resist when I saw that Musictek had the black MK2 in stock - it’s coming tomorrow
> 
> The OG HE-300 was a great match to the Meze Empyrean cans (which I got a couple of months after hearing these headphones with this amp at CanJam) -  hoping the sound here at home is as good as my memory from those years ago! I’ve got DNA Stratus as my main amp so I’m very interested to hear the contrast between these two rigs/2A3 & 300B.


Just jumping in to say, I am looking forward to hearing how the mk2 compares with the Stratus, as I am looking at exactly these two amps and one of them will be my next purchase.  Curious which version of the Stratus do you have?


----------



## Trickness

Wes S said:


> Just jumping in to say, I am looking forward to hearing how the mk2 compares with the Stratus, as I am looking at exactly these two amps and one of them will be my next purchase.  Curious which version of the Stratus do you have?


Not sure, it’s 3-4 years old. Really love it.


----------



## Wes S

Trickness said:


> Not sure, it’s 3-4 years old. Really love it.


Cool and thanks.  Really looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## Erwinatm

_


Just arrived. Now, "cooking" tubes.._


----------



## ARCXENOS

Great to see more units delivered, maybe in a few weeks we can have some mk2 tube rolling discussions


----------



## Trickness

Mine are cooking too - trying not to listen critically so I plugged in my old Focal Elear, which I hate


----------



## Erwinatm

Trickness said:


> Mine are cooking too - trying not to listen critically so I plugged in my old Focal Elear, which I hate


I can't resist too, honestly it is good straight out of the box.


----------



## Trickness

Erwinatm said:


> I can't resist too, honestly it is good straight out of the box.


My initial impression is that I need to turn it up louder to get the same level of detail that I get from the stratus. But the Stratus has an NOS glass and it is well burned in. Soundstage already sounds wider than the Stratus. This is 4 hours in, stock tubes. Gotta say the black mark 2 version is just stunning looking in the flesh.


----------



## dnd3241

Is the MKII still have the background noice like the MKI does ?


----------



## justanut

dnd3241 said:


> Is the MKII still have the background noice like the MKI does ?


None on mine with stock power cables


----------



## justanut

I've realised how futile it was chasing after TOTL headphones in the past when my source wasn't up to par.. the HA-300ii is making my mid tier cans sing far better than TOTL cans out of my previously entry level gear!

Eying Linlai E-300B or PSvane ACME next.. after wallet recovers...


----------



## Erwinatm

dnd3241 said:


> Is the MKII still have the background noice like the MKI does ?


None with Atrium mid gain, in high gain can barely hear noise at max vol, very subtle. When music played you won't hear it. 

With Empyrean none at all low to high gain at max level.


----------



## justanut (Jun 4, 2022)

I've realised how futile it was chasing after TOTL headphones in the past when my source wasn't up to par.. the HA-300ii is making my mid tier cans sing far better than TOTL cans out of my previously entry level gear!

Eying Linlai E-300B or PSvane ACME next.. after wallet recovers...

Takatsuki is a tad too rich for me...


----------



## Erwinatm (Jun 4, 2022)

justanut said:


> I've realised how futile it was chasing after TOTL headphones in the past when my source wasn't up to par.. the HA-300ii is making my mid tier cans sing far better than TOTL cans out of my previously entry level gear!
> 
> Eying Linlai E-300B or PSvane ACME next.. after wallet recovers...
> 
> Taiatsuki is a tad too rich for me...


Before eyeing on 300B, you can try rolling 6SN7 first. Easier on wallet. 😉

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## dnd3241

Erwinatm said:


> None with Atrium mid gain, in high gain can barely hear noise at max vol, very subtle. When music played you won't hear it.
> 
> With Empyrean none at all low to high gain at max level.


I wonder is it power enough to kick the Susvara if yes…the high gain effect will cause the noise?


----------



## Erwinatm

dnd3241 said:


> I wonder is it power enough to kick the Susvara if yes…the high gain effect will cause the noise?


I think it can, I have read it somewhere in older post here.

Besides, with 8W output, shouldn't be a problem for susvara.


----------



## Palyodgree

dnd3241 said:


> I wonder is it power enough to kick the Susvara if yes…the high gain effect will cause the noise?


The Susvaras are absolutely fabulous sounding driven by the HA -300 though I’ve only borrowed the Susvaras Im in no hurry to purchase them . I have the Mk1 with stock tubes with recent changes the before and after Im experienced a large improvement across the board , I’m leaving good enough alone for now however the Mk2 in black Im finding it hard to resist.


----------



## justanut (Jun 4, 2022)

Can some kind soul advise if the electron cloud look normal? Took a couple of shots in the dark, right side always has that overfilled look..

Stock Gold Lions less than 24hr usage.


----------



## paradoxper

justanut said:


> Can some kind soul advise if the electron cloud look normal? Took a couple of shots in the dark, right side always has that overfilled look..
> 
> Stock Gold Lions less than 24hr usage.


Normal especially for a new tube. If the blues turn to pink, cease operation and request replacement.


----------



## UntilThen

Wes S said:


> Just jumping in to say, I am looking forward to hearing how the mk2 compares with the Stratus, as I am looking at exactly these two amps and one of them will be my next purchase.  Curious which version of the Stratus do you have?



One's a 300b amp while the other 2a3. Not exactly comparing apples with apples.


----------



## llamaluv

It looks like a couple recent posters have the HA-300 and the Atrium. Would you be able to characterize what the Atrium sounds like on the HA-300? 

Among the ZMF headphones, I've tried the Verite Open and Auteur on the HA-300 OG,. I liked the Auteur quite a bit, but actually liked it even more out of the Bakoon R-13 at the time. I think the Auteur on the HA-300 was just a little too mid-range-y for my tastes. From what I gather,, I'm guessing I may feel the same way about the Atrium, but I'm still super-curious...


----------



## Trickness

UntilThen said:


> One's a 300b amp while the other 2a3. Not exactly comparing apples with apples.


If I had to provide a comparison after 24 hours, I would say that the HA 300 has a weightier sound, with a wider soundstage, and the Stratus Is more delicate, detailed and precise. But of course One amplifier is brand new with stock tubes and the other one is extremely well broken in with a bunch of NOS glass.


----------



## UntilThen

Trickness said:


> If I had to provide a comparison after 24 hours, I would say that the HA 300 has a weightier sound, with a wider soundstage, and the Stratus Is more delicate, detailed and precise. But of course One amplifier is brand new with stock tubes and the other one is extremely well broken in with a bunch of NOS glass.



Spot on and a very good observation. Those are the characteristics of 300b and 2a3 amps. I was almost an owner of a Stratus but I pull out after waiting 8 months to pursue other gear.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 5, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> One's a 300b amp while the other 2a3. Not exactly comparing apples with apples.


Yep, and I am still curious how they compare not having heard either tube type myself, as I am most likely going with one or the other and I am collecting data from people who have heard both.


----------



## Wes S

Trickness said:


> If I had to provide a comparison after 24 hours, I would say that the HA 300 has a weightier sound, with a wider soundstage, and the Stratus Is more delicate, detailed and precise. But of course One amplifier is brand new with stock tubes and the other one is extremely well broken in with a bunch of NOS glass.


This is the kind of info I am interested in, and thanks for sharing.


----------



## UntilThen

Wes S said:


> Yep, and I am still curious how they compare not having heard either tube type myself, as I am most likely going with one or the other and I am collecting data from people who have heard both.



Not an easy decision to make because those 2 amps will sound quite different. If you've not had a 300b amp before then you owe it to yourself to get one because the tone is special.


----------



## Wes S

UntilThen said:


> Not an easy decision to make because those 2 amps will sound quite different. If you've not had a 300b amp before then you owe it to yourself to get one because the tone is special.


I am definitely leaning toward a 300b amp (hence me following this thread), and the Stratus and 2A3 is just something I have always been interested in as I hear they pair well with ZMF's.  That's why I have been trying to find out how they differ.


----------



## ZzZzZzZ

Hope this video further clearify the sound character of 300b and 2A3 tube amps.


----------



## ZzZzZzZ

Post# 1600 !!


----------



## Wes S

ZzZzZzZ said:


> Hope this video further clearify the sound character of 300b and 2A3 tube amps.



Thanks for sharing, this was very helpful.


----------



## justanut

Andykong said:


> This video is a bit long, but we have managed to squeeze out a lot of design and engineering detail of HA-300MK2 from our Chief Engineer.  If you wanted to find out more about our TOTL tube headphone amplifier, check out our latest interview video:



That headphone in the background that they both liked.. Sursvana? 

interestingly Chen prefers SE out for vocals and Balanced for classical. Dug out my stock SE cables for 800S~


----------



## UntilThen

justanut said:


> That headphone in the background that they both liked.. Sursvana?



Yes that is Susvara. The chief engineer says he has a preference for planar magnetics. Mk2 uses Tung Sol 6sn7gtb current production as driver tubes and Genalex PX300B as power tubes. I use Genalex 300b tubes in my 300b amp too. 

Only 2 days ago I listen to Susvara on my 300b amp and it's fabulous. It's a great pairing.


----------



## ARCXENOS

I use my Susvara on the mk2, I have never used speaker amplifiers with it, thus from a headphone amp user's perspective, I can vouch that both volume and quality can be attained with the ha-300b.

Maybe I don't know what I am missing out on, but that is fine, I am pretty happy with the mk2.

On a sidenote, I got a pair of almost nos sylvania 6sn7, taking my time to enjoy it now


----------



## Palyodgree (Jun 5, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> Not an easy decision to make because those 2 amps will sound quite different. If you've not had a 300b amp before then you owe it to yourself to get one because the tone is special.


I would say so , for me with well recorded music a more realistic timbre and tone with the human pitch is all important , with the 300B in the mix I have found that .


----------



## Palyodgree

justanut said:


> That headphone in the background that they both liked.. Sursvana?
> 
> interestingly Chen prefers SE out for vocals and Balanced for classical. Dug out my stock SE cables for 800S~


I haven’t tried single ended interconnects yet though I most definitely will get around to it .


----------



## Trickness (Jun 6, 2022)

Wes S said:


> I am definitely leaning toward a 300b amp (hence me following this thread), and the Stratus and 2A3 is just something I have always been interested in as I hear they pair well with ZMF's.  That's why I have been trying to find out how they differ.


I would definitely get a 300b based amp first. The HA-300 has this wonderful saturated sound and a very wide screen, Technicolor soundstage. It is the polar opposite of solid state amps. The 2A3 sound (at least from my Stratus) is less euphonic, it’s more accurate and has more clearly defined edges around everything in the sound field. I think it also swings a little bit less than the 300b. It’s a wonderful amp and I do love the 2A3 sound, but I would say it is almost a bit analytical compared to the 300b tone. So especially if you’re coming from solid-state amplifiers, the 300b is going to be just significantly different in tone. It’s a lot of fun and yes there are weaknesses but it’s kind of a big sound and on the right music you just can’t help but say wow, in more of an emotional way. The Stratus makes me say wow because I can hear the difference between reverb sizes on individual instruments, and the decay of a reverb and really low level stuff happening, while still getting tube goodness. They both really complement each other as amplifiers


----------



## Ysound

dnd3241 said:


> Is the MKII still have the background noice like the MKI does ?


Mine were having the background noise issues, had to return and now waiting for a new replacement.


----------



## Erwinatm

Ysound said:


> Mine were having the background noise issues, had to return and now waiting for a new replacement.


What headphone are you using?


----------



## justanut

Ysound said:


> Mine were having the background noise issues, had to return and now waiting for a new replacement.


That sucks. Trust you had isolated the problem. Was it the tubes or some unknown in the set?


----------



## steve468

On the subject of noise, in my particular case, I get quite a large amount of tube gunk noise with NOS 6sn7s (and equivalents). The stock tubes are fine, so I know it's the tubes. Is this what is meant by background noise issues? The only solution I can think of is to try an attenuator. Anyone else have issues just with tube rolling? I was really hoping the mk. II fixed this.


----------



## mfgillia (Jun 7, 2022)

Overall I have been amazed how quiet it is especially for a tube amp with tube rectification. In most circumstances with normal levels of background noise in my apartment, I can't hear any audible noise floor with the Atriums regardless of impedance / gain setting and through either of the two balance outputs.

With the VCs, I can just barely hear some noise out of the 4.4 and then slightly more out of the XLR mostly just on the high impedance setting. The nice thing though is the noise floor is not variable - it doesn't noticably increase as I turn the volume up. Therefore, it's easy to ignore and generally impossible to notice when music is playing.

Surprisingly, the amp seems to work incredibly well with my IEMs out of the 4.4. No audible noise floor and therefore less than the VCs. I haven't tried the single ended yet but assuming that would have the highest noise floor of all three outputs.


----------



## mfgillia

Just realized I haven't posted pictues on this thread previously, so here's two recent ones.


----------



## dnd3241

It's quite depends on your luck by purchasing this Amp !  It seem the MK I problem still carried on MKII . Dame !


----------



## Trickness

dnd3241 said:


> It's quite depends on your luck by purchasing this Amp !  It seem the MK I problem still carried on MKII . Dame !



I don’t agree at all. You can’t blame the noise of old stock tubes on a new amp. My unit is dead quiet and sounds beautiful. I’m not using in ear headphones, so I can’t speak to that. But nearly every piece of tube audio equipment I’ve had in 40 years of this hobby can make noise under certain circumstances - whether there is some kind of electronic interference in the home, a grounding issue, bad tubes, supersensitive speakers… If you don’t want any of this then of course you can go solid state, but then you miss all the benefits of the musicality of tubes.

My DNA Stratus is noisier than the HA – 300 MKII. That may be due to the fact that it’s loaded with old glass. I’ve been burning my unit in for 12 hours a day since receiving it last Friday and it just keeps sounding better. I think they’ve done a stellar job with this piece.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 7, 2022)

Trickness said:


> I would definitely get a 300b based amp first. The HA-300 has this wonderful saturated sound and a very wide screen, Technicolor soundstage. It is the polar opposite of solid state amps. The 2A3 sound (at least from my Stratus) is less euphonic, it’s more accurate and has more clearly defined edges around everything in the sound field. I think it also swings a little bit less than the 300b. It’s a wonderful amp and I do love the 2A3 sound, but I would say it is almost a bit analytical compared to the 300b tone. So especially if you’re coming from solid-state amplifiers, the 300b is going to be just significantly different in tone. It’s a lot of fun and yes there are weaknesses but it’s kind of a big sound and on the right music you just can’t help but say wow, in more of an emotional way. The Stratus makes me say wow because I can hear the difference between reverb sizes on individual instruments, and the decay of a reverb and really low level stuff happening, while still getting tube goodness. They both really complement each other as amplifiers


Interestingly enough, your descriptions make me with my ZMF's (of which have enough saturation and euphony on their own) think the Stratus is what I am looking for.  So thanks for this post.  I am looking for the most lifelike experience I can get, and I already have enough warmth/euphony from my DAC (Sonnet Morpheus) and headphones (ZMF VC and Atticus), so perhaps the more accurate and detailed Stratus is where it's at for my system and preferences.  I am still on the fence though, and will be following this thread closely.

Also, interesting that your Stratus is noisier than the MKII, as I have heard the Stratus is said to be very very quiet for a tube amp.  So, that definitely gives points to the MkII.


----------



## Trickness

Wes S said:


> Interestingly enough, your descriptions make me with my ZMF's (of which have enough saturation and euphony on their own) think the Stratus is what I am looking for.  So thanks for this post.  I am looking for the most lifelike experience I can get, and I already have enough warmth/euphony from my DAC (Sonnet Morpheus) and headphones (ZMF VC and Atticus), so perhaps the more accurate and detailed Stratus is where it's at for my system and preferences.  I am still on the fence though, and will be following this thread closely.
> 
> Also, interesting that your Stratus is noisier than the MKII, as I have heard the Stratus is said to be very very quiet for a tube amp.  So, that definitely gives points to the MkII.


I don’t want to say that the stratus is inherently noisier than one amp or another. It has been quieter before when it was in a different place in my apartment and when I was using different tubes. That’s part of this whole game in my opinion and that’s why I don’t think any of these amps should get a bad rap as inherently noisy. I just think it’s part of the potential environment when you’re dealing with tubes, especially ones that were made in the 50s or 60s.


----------



## Ysound

Ysound said:


> Mine were having the background noise issues, had to return and now waiting for a new replacement.


Was using the Sennheiser HD 820 while the Susvara was en route. It was suspected that the C5088 transistor in the power supply was causing the noises.


----------



## Ysound (Jun 8, 2022)

The Sennheiser HD820 which is 300 ohm so set  impedance to “H” which produced extremely high electrical background noises.
I set it at “M” and noises is lowered by a bit and finally if leave it at “L” the noises reduced a little more but still clearly audible.
It sound like a bad set of tubes or a noisy transformer.
My current set up with absolutely no noises unlike HA-300 MK2.


----------



## justanut (Jun 8, 2022)

Ysound said:


> The Sennheiser HD820 which is 300 ohm so set  impedance to “H” which produced extremely high electrical background noises.
> I set it at “M” and noises is lowered by a bit and finally if leave it at “L” the noises reduced a little more but still clearly audible.
> It sound like a bad set of tubes or a noisy transformer.
> My current set up with absolutely no noises unlike HA-300 MK2.


Mine with stock everything (less a custom 10awg power cable) has no noise with my IEM (IE900) on L, R10 on M, 650 and 800S both on H, 4.4mm to XLR line-out from el-Diablo~

*Edit*
All my gear powered through a power purifier filter strip. My wifi router is less than 2m away...


----------



## Andykong

dnd3241 said:


> It's quite depends on your luck by purchasing this Amp !  It seem the MK I problem still carried on MKII . Dame !


This is a very interesting observation, but can you provide more information regarding the "MK1 problem"?  We would like to find out more detail if there is a problem that we don't know and improve our product in subsequent developments.


----------



## Andykong (Jun 8, 2022)

Ysound said:


> Was using the Sennheiser HD 820 while the Susvara was en route. It was suspected that the C5088 transistor in the power supply was causing the noises.





Ysound said:


> The Sennheiser HD820 which is 300 ohm so set  impedance to “H” which produced extremely high electrical background noises.
> I set it at “M” and noises is lowered by a bit and finally if leave it at “L” the noises reduced a little more but still clearly audible.
> It sound like a bad set of tubes or a noisy transformer.
> My current set up with absolutely no noises unlike HA-300 MK2.



We didn't test HD820 with HA-300MK2 specifically, but we have used HD800 and HD800S in multiple shows and events as demo headphones for HA-300MK2, They always work fine in our demo setup and they shouldn't generate extremely high noise in H or M impedance setting as described.   

Did you send your HA-300MK2 back to your dealer for repair or replacement?  and your dealer confirmed that the C5088 transistors are faulty and they need to replace the transistor?  I hope your amplifier has been taken care of and you can enjoy your HD820 with HA-300MK2 when you receive your repaired am[lifier (or replacement unit).  

By the way, your original setup was Luxman CL-1000 preamp + BAT VK-655SE power amp driving HD820? and you bought the HA-300MK2 to replace the CL-1000 and VK-655SE combo for headphones? or you use the CL-1000 as pre-amp for HA-300MK2?


----------



## dnd3241

Andykong said:


> This is a very interesting observation, but can you provide more information regarding the "MK1 problem"?  We would like to find out more detail if there is a problem that we don't know and improve our product in subsequent developments.


Check your return records that will showed all the problem. Mostly is the background noice.  HA-6A and the HA300 MKI both have the same problem ! I really hope this new version can present a dark picture even on the high gain volume.


----------



## Andykong

dnd3241 said:


> Check your return records that will showed all the problem. Mostly is the background noice.  HA-6A and the HA300 MKI both have the same problem ! I really hope this new version can present a dark picture even on the high gain volume.



Yes, we have encountered some problems with HA-6A and we have rectified that already.

Nope, we didn't have an abnormal return problem with HA-300MK1 due to noise problem, that's why I try to find out from you.

By the way, there is no such thing as high gain in a tube amplifier.  Not in HA-6A, HA-300MK1, or HA-300MK2.


----------



## Ysound

Andykong said:


> We didn't test HD820 with HA-300MK2 specifically, but we have used HD800 and HD800S in multiple shows and events as demo headphones for HA-300MK2, They always work fine in our demo setup and they shouldn't generate extremely high noise in H or M impedance setting as described.
> 
> Did you send your HA-300MK2 back to your dealer for repair or replacement?  and your dealer confirmed that the C5088 transistors are faulty and they need to replace the transistor?  I hope your amplifier has been taken care of and you can enjoy your HD820 with HA-300MK2 when you receive your repaired am[lifier (or replacement unit).
> 
> By the way, your original setup was Luxman CL-1000 preamp + BAT VK-655SE power amp driving HD820? and you bought the HA-300MK2 to replace the CL-1000 and VK-655SE combo for headphones? or you use the CL-1000 as pre-amp for HA-300MK2?


I purchased the HA-300MK2 with the intention of using it with the Susvara which was a few days behind on delivery. 
While waiting for the Susvara I listens with the HD820 but the noise issues so I ship it back to the dealer for a replacement and went back to the old Auralic Taurus amp.
The Susvara showed up a few days ago and I've using BAT and Luxman setup with it, an extremely excellent match up.


----------



## bdjul

I also have some noise issues, but with susvara it is dead silent


----------



## justanut

Just perfect with my fav cans. Ordering a pair of Linlai Elite 6SN7 to try, while I save up for a pair of WE 300B~ 5 years warranty trumps any sonic advantages that Takasuki may possess imo..

Still, looking forward to tube rolling experiences by other owners!


----------



## rmsanger

just curious if the Mk2 review has ever been published?  Sorry I forgot which user and which publication had the review unit... I think we said it would take 6-8 weeks for a proper review which we're getting close to.


----------



## paradoxper

justanut said:


> Just perfect with my fav cans. Ordering a pair of Linlai Elite 6SN7 to try, while I save up for a pair of WE 300B~ 5 years warranty trumps any sonic advantages that Takasuki may possess imo..
> 
> Still, looking forward to tube rolling experiences by other owners!


Dang. The grain of your R10 looks fantastic.


----------



## justanut

My Linlai E-6SN7 are in. 

Giving me OCD because the filament on both tubes isn’t parallel.. wording on the tubes are in different shades of gold too..

Thankfully the both work and sounds good out of the box. However I’ve noticed a greater difference in the VU meter.. hopefully that changes with burn-in??


----------



## ThanatosVI

justanut said:


> My Linlai E-6SN7 are in.
> 
> Giving me OCD because the filament on both tubes isn’t parallel.. wording on the tubes are in different shades of gold too..
> 
> Thankfully the both work and sounds good out of the box. However I’ve noticed a greater difference in the VU meter.. hopefully that changes with burn-in??


Keep us updated with sound impressions


----------



## justanut

ThanatosVI said:


> Keep us updated with sound impressions


Haha I'll try but I barely knew the Tung Sol before swapping them out 😅 I'm just glad nothing horrible stands out. Slow burn time~


----------



## justanut

Question: Can the cage of the HA300ii fit taller tubes like EML-300B XLS? Can't seem to find dimensions for those tubes..


----------



## Palyodgree

justanut said:


> My Linlai E-6SN7 are in.
> 
> Giving me OCD because the filament on both tubes isn’t parallel.. wording on the tubes are in different shades of gold too..
> 
> Thankfully the both work and sounds good out of the box. However I’ve noticed a greater difference in the VU meter.. hopefully that changes with burn-in??


The Linlai brand of 6sn7s i have considered awhile ago I found a source they test and cheery pick pairs of brands they carry then sell for a little extra to those of us that suffer from OCD though I haven’t yet ordered a pair for now all is sounding exceptionally good I’m going to leave it alone   Looking forward to your evaluation.


----------



## paradoxper

justanut said:


> Question: Can the cage of the HA300ii fit taller tubes like EML-300B XLS? Can't seem to find dimensions for those tubes..


IIRC 190mm tall. Does not look like they will fit.


----------



## justanut

The Linlais’ glow in the dark. Do you see the house? 🤣

I’ve noticed a bigger difference between M and H impedance with my ES-R10 with these tubes. There was no noticeable difference with the Tung Sol and I used to keep it at M with them. 

Just 15hrs on these.. looking forward to 100hrs.


----------



## dadracer2

They look glorious. Has the sound changed much?


----------



## Trickness

I just put some late 1940s NOS Sylvania military 6SN7WGT brown base tubes in my MKII. Shorter than the stock tubes. Got to burn them in to understand the difference in tone, but it’s still dead quiet.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

Definitely a fun weekend!


----------



## llamaluv

justanut said:


> The Linlais’ [...]



I was looking up Linai and noticed this comparison -- 

Rolling the Linlai E-300 and Psvane ACME 300B - An Aural Indulgence​https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/300b-tubes/​
-- in case that's useful for anyone. 

As someone who's been using ACME 300B for the last couple years (and which I kept over of the Takatuskis, which I recently sold at a loss), I found this comparison to be useful to get a sense of what the Linai might sound like...


----------



## justanut

dadracer2 said:


> They look glorious. Has the sound changed much?



Nearing 30hrs still sounds similar to fresh out of box, but then mine are 2021 production tubes that have been sitting in my dealer's warehouse ever since... wonder if it's been used? Hmmm...



llamaluv said:


> I was looking up Linai and noticed this comparison --
> 
> Rolling the Linlai E-300 and Psvane ACME 300B - An Aural Indulgence​https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/300b-tubes/​
> -- in case that's useful for anyone.
> ...



I was looking to get them but don't really want to just have Linlai tubes in there.. probably getting EML (non-XL) 300Bs instead. Looks to be good value with 5 years warranty.


----------



## justanut

Level5 said:


> Was this the Mesh? Not sure what specs the HA300 runs on...
> 
> Per EML recommendation:
> http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML300B-mesh.html
> ...


Never saw a reply to this... anyone knows if the EML mesh would work?


----------



## Sampajanna

I have the MK1 amp and had difficulty with EML 300b not working.


----------



## Trickness

Listening this A.M. to the MKII after switching to XLR inputs, fed from an Auralic Aries into a Yggy A2. Balanced on the MKII is quite a bit louder than single ended, and the Yggy famously sounds better using the balanced outs, so the switch is a treat. Stunning, holographic, widescreen sounds into my Meze Empyrean cans - Thom Yorke‘s Anima is just mind blowing, super musical, the album has never sounded this good to my ears. My system isn’t a budget rig by any means, but I’m just shocked at how much I’m enjoying the new HA-300. It’s really a treasure.


----------



## Palyodgree (Jun 13, 2022)

Trickness said:


> Listening this A.M. to the MKII after switching to XLR inputs, fed from an Auralic Aries into a Yggy A2. Balanced on the MKII is quite a bit louder than single ended, and the Yggy famously sounds better using the balanced outs, so the switch is a treat. Stunning, holographic, widescreen sounds into my Meze Empyrean cans - Thom Yorke‘s Anima is just mind blowing, super musical, the album has never sounded this good to my ears. My system isn’t a budget rig by any means, but I’m just shocked at how much I’m enjoying the new HA-300. It’s really a treasure.


I had made the switch from single ended too XLR interconnects using Rockna WaveDream Net server and WaveDream XLR dac notice playback opened up and was more pleasing to my ears though at the time my Ha-300 MK 1 needed a thorough run in I felt I was on a good path at achieving my goals of being satisfied and content within the top end of my budget . However I’d like to try a good set of single ended interconnects once again on the recommendation of Cayins chief engineer prefers SE interconnects for the human pitch.

I had purchased HiFiman HEKSE used as a stepping stone to the Susvaras after listening to them on a couple of occasions however currently my system has given the HEKSEs a new lease on life for me one that raised overall musically to a new level I wasn’t expecting , if synergy is such a thing the HA -300 MK-1 / MK 2 in the mix will help get you there .


----------



## ARCXENOS

PSVANE's CV181 Tii collector's edition

Used to own a quad of them for my schiit freya before I sold it, they were pretty much used 80% of the time.

I had that itch to acquire another pair, glad to say that they sound great with the MK2. To my ears I would say they are a more pronounced V shape compared to the stock tung sols, very punchy bass on my setup. I enjoy the slam from these to the point to say that I would definitely buy an extra pair just in case they ran out, but thankfully I believe these are still in production.







Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bottom D foil getter with Flat black plate"

Not sure which batch and the history of these, compared to the stock tungsols I would say these have a slightly better perceived instrument separation, and sharper treble. I would say that in my setup, the sound profile of these are rather similar to the stock tungsols. If you are looking for something that is just a little more brighter than stock maybe these could be up your alley.


I can feel my tube addiction coming back again, maybe I should had kept a couple of my old 6sn7 pairs from my freya. I might cave for another pair of 300b at these rate


----------



## lumdicks

ARCXENOS said:


> PSVANE's CV181 Tii collector's edition
> 
> Used to own a quad of them for my schiit freya before I sold it, they were pretty much used 80% of the time.
> 
> I had that itch to acquire another pair, glad to say that they sound great with the MK2. To my ears I would say they are a more pronounced V shape compared to the stock tung sols, very punchy bass on my setup. I enjoy the slam from these to the point to say that I would definitely buy an extra pair just in case they ran out, but thankfully I believe these are still in production.


If you have chance, get a pair of NOS Mullard CV181 / ECC32 and you will be surprised by how much it is better than the Psvane one.


----------



## ARCXENOS

lumdicks said:


> If you have chance, get a pair of NOS Mullard CV181 / ECC32 and you will be surprised by how much it is better than the Psvane one.



Definitely will do if I stumble across them locally (and not at severely outrageous prices), I am willing to be surprised!


----------



## Andykong

Trickness said:


> Listening this A.M. to the MKII after switching to XLR inputs, fed from an Auralic Aries into a Yggy A2. Balanced on the MKII is quite a bit louder than single ended, and the Yggy famously sounds better using the balanced outs, so the switch is a treat. Stunning, holographic, widescreen sounds into my Meze Empyrean cans - Thom Yorke‘s Anima is just mind blowing, super musical, the album has never sounded this good to my ears. My system isn’t a budget rig by any means, but I’m just shocked at how much I’m enjoying the new HA-300. It’s really a treasure.


Your previous setup is Auralic Aries > Yggy A2 > DNA Stratus 2A3?  Definitely a high-end rig by any measurement.

Glad to know our HA-300MK2 has offered a decent upgrade to your rig.  With your tube collection, I assume you are in the early stage of your honeymoon only.


----------



## Trickness

Andykong said:


> Your previous setup is Auralic Aries > Yggy A2 > DNA Stratus 2A3?  Definitely a high-end rig by any measurement.
> 
> Glad to know our HA-300MK2 has offered a decent upgrade to your rig.  With your tube collection, I assume you are in the early stage of your honeymoon only.


I actually still have the Stratus, now being fed by an Oppo 205. Fantastic sounding amp, even fed by the DAC in the Oppo. It is more precise than the MK2, but the sound stage isn’t as wide and it’s not as “meaty”. They complement each other quite nicely!


----------



## steve468

I wanted to share a positive post-purchase service story, just because we only ever seem to hear the negative.

I bought a pair of Psvane Acme 300bs through Amazon, my first time with anything other than the stock TJ's. When they arrived, I swapped them in, booted up the amp, and let the tubes warm up. Everything looks normal so far. Turned up the volume and...nothing. No sound, no action from the metres. So I think maybe the tubes are bad. Swapped everything back to stock and still nothing. 

Now I think something's really wrong. Somehow these tubes killed my amp! At this point I'm thinking about what organs to sell to afford sending this behemoth back to Music Teck in New Jersey. 

I emailed Music Teck, and only a day later I got a response from their tech. They suggested to try swapping out a particular fuse in the power section. Even sent me a picture and description of how to do it. 

Success! It was actually an easy fix. How they managed to diagnose the issue so quickly from my brief description I don't know. But their customer service saved me the many hundreds of dollars sending back the amp would cost.

Now if only Amazon was as good. I'm trying to return those Psvane tubes (it was definitely them that blew the fuse somehow), but the shipping label they gave me is all messed up and nobody's responding to my pleas for help...


----------



## skedra

@Andykong do you think the ha-300 mk2 would work to drive the new Raal Ca-1a? I heard some info that the mk1 could drive the sr-1a directly but I'd rather confirm this before trying


----------



## marcusd

Our HA-300MK2 review is now posted  Fabulous sounding SETA amplifier, and built to a very high level indeed. Just don't try and haul it up a steep flight of stairs 

https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/


----------



## Andykong

*Headfonics *has published a detailed review on Cayin HA-300MK2, according to Marcus, Chief editor of Headfonics, this is the longest review they ever published on a headphone amplifier.  I am sure this will provide a lot of insights to anyone considering HA-300MK2 as their next headphone amplifier.


----------



## dadracer2

marcusd said:


> Our HA-300MK2 review is now posted  Fabulous sounding SETA amplifier, and built to a very high level indeed. Just don't try and haul it up a steep flight of stairs
> 
> https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/


Nice review and comparison to other headphone amps. Would like to have seen you include the HD800S as one of the headphones as I think this has an amazing synergy with the HA300 (well it does on the mk1 anyway!).


----------



## marcusd

dadracer2 said:


> Nice review and comparison to other headphone amps. Would like to have seen you include the HD800S as one of the headphones as I think this has an amazing synergy with the HA300 (well it does on the mk1 anyway!).


Unfortunately a headphone I do not have here to discuss, apologies.


----------



## rmsanger

marcusd said:


> Our HA-300MK2 review is now posted  Fabulous sounding SETA amplifier, and built to a very high level indeed. Just don't try and haul it up a steep flight of stairs
> 
> https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/


Thanks been awaiting this review eagerly since the Envy review!


----------



## marcusd

rmsanger said:


> Thanks been awaiting this review eagerly since the Envy review!



Happy to help


----------



## Erwinatm

marcusd said:


> Our HA-300MK2 review is now posted  Fabulous sounding SETA amplifier, and built to a very high level indeed. Just don't try and haul it up a steep flight of stairs
> 
> https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/


2 thumbs up.  

I have this amp hooked up with Atrium as well and totally agree with your opinions & impressions.

I also found that using the 6.3 SE output is better with vocal centric music. It brings the vocal a little forward and sweeter than the XLR balance out. For classical and dynamic music, XLR is better since it gives a wider soundstage and more dynamic sound.


----------



## tinariwen

Hey guys,

I quick couple questions from an HA-6A owner.

How do you find the speed, or attack of transients? I’ve recently picked up a Feliks Euforia AE, as my HA-6A was a bit too soft with transients when using my ZMF Atrium. That aspect worked fantastically with my ZMF VCs when I needed to tame the speed, but it was too much of a good thing with the Atriums - even when using the fastest, most solid-state sounding tubes.

What are the background noise levels like with high ohm headphones, like those from ZMF? The HA-6A is known for having a noisy background, which I countered using an adapter made by Skedra, a member of head-fi.

Just to fill in some background: before getting the Atrium, I owned the VCs and the Aeolus. Both fantastic headphones, and paired really well with the HA-6A. When I got the Atrium, however, I really preferred the more natural tone and balanced tuning, so the VCs and Aeolus are on the chopping block. The problem then was that the HA-6A was too ‘soft’ for the Atrium, smearing the imaging due to slower transients (even with the faster tube setup). The Feliks Euforia AE fixed that with its more solid state signature, but I’ve always been drawn to the new Cayin amp.

So ultimately, I suppose what im asking is, does the HA-300 mk2 do the Atriums justice? Is it fast enough to compete with a more solid state sounding amp, or will I have the same problems?


----------



## dadracer2

marcusd said:


> Unfortunately a headphone I do not have here to discuss, apologies.


No problem and no need for apologies. Your review is comprehensive and the other amps make a good comparison. I know you feel the HA300 has a negative of not having a preamp function but do please highlight that it will drive sensitive speakers beautifully.


----------



## llamaluv

tinariwen said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I quick couple questions from an HA-6A owner.
> 
> ...


I think the Atrium pairs really well with the HA-300 (mk1 in my case). Speed, transients, and bass impact are all as they should be. This is with the amp set to high impedance.

For tubes, I'm using Sylvania 6SN7GTB's (which have some bite to them) and PSVane ACME 300Bs (which are solid-sounding and dynamic). On the Atrium, either the Universe lambskin or the Auteur lambskin pads.

I'm not not heard the HA-6A or the Euforia though, which I guess would be the most important thing in order to share a common point of reference.


----------



## msq123

Is it possible/advisable to use banana to RCA in to power amp?  I am looking to replace  ZMF pendant which I sometime use as pre in to SS power amp to drive my B&W 705s and since there is no pre-amp functionality in here I am thinking if there is a workaround to introduce tubes in the chain?


----------



## dadracer2

I don't think that can work. The HA300 only has line inputs and no pre amp function. The only work around might be to swap your speakers for something more sensitive and just run them from the HA300 which will give you the full 300B experience.


----------



## msq123

dadracer2 said:


> I don't think that can work. The HA300 only has line inputs and no pre amp function. The only work around might be to swap your speakers for something more sensitive and just run them from the HA300 which will give you the full 300B experience.



Thanks.  I found out that banana plug carries too hot a signal to be going in to a power amp.  I will need to look at alternatives.  Probably a dedicated pre for my speakers while I have HA300b for headphones.


----------



## msq123

marcusd said:


> Our HA-300MK2 review is now posted  Fabulous sounding SETA amplifier, and built to a very high level indeed. Just don't try and haul it up a steep flight of stairs
> 
> https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/



Thanks for this amazingly detailed review.  I enjoyed the synergy section and very timely for me as I wait for my Atriums and was confused between Envy and HA300b.  I feel Cayin sounds more what I expect from a tube amp and should complement my TT2 nicely.  Unfortunately I don’t have r2r and will be feeding from TT2. I am hoping that synergy is more similar to Bartok than what you got with Qutest.


----------



## marcusd

msq123 said:


> Thanks for this amazingly detailed review.  I enjoyed the synergy section and very timely for me as I wait for my Atriums and was confused between Envy and HA300b.  I feel Cayin sounds more what I expect from a tube amp and should complement my TT2 nicely.  Unfortunately I don’t have r2r and will be feeding from TT2. I am hoping that synergy is more similar to Bartok than what you got with Qutest.


The TT2 should be good actually, it's got a nice mids focus, very fast and complex-sounding for soundstaging which the Atrium enjoys.


----------



## Sampajanna

I have uysed TT2 with the HA300 Mk1 for a long time. It is a great combo indeed. You hav eto use preamp mode though as the ouput on the tt2 is too much for the cayin. Not sure if that is different for mk2, though. But the soujnds is great.


----------



## dadracer2

rmsanger said:


> Thanks been awaiting this review eagerly since the Envy review!


Did you decide yet on which amp to go for?


----------



## msq123

Sampajanna said:


> I have uysed TT2 with the HA300 Mk1 for a long time. It is a great combo indeed. You hav eto use preamp mode though as the ouput on the tt2 is too much for the cayin. Not sure if that is different for mk2, though. But the soujnds is great.



That sounds right, I have recently started using pre amp in LO G mode with my ZMF Pendant (which is what I will be replacing with Cayin Ha-300). I have  noticed that dynamics get better when I attenuate voltage instead of feeding constant 2.5v through dac mode. Thanks for confirming this for Cayin.


----------



## mfgillia

msq123 said:


> That sounds right, I have recently started using pre amp in LO G mode with my ZMF Pendant (which is what I will be replacing with Cayin Ha-300). I have  noticed that dynamics get better when I attenuate voltage instead of feeding constant 2.5v through dac mode. Thanks for confirming this for Cayin.


Note at around the 4 minute 30 second mark in the ZMF video on the dCS Lina, Zach thought the Cayin HA-300 MKII sounds significantly better with ZMFs using the higher 6 volts setting.


----------



## msq123

mfgillia said:


> Note at around the 4 minute 30 second mark in the ZMF video on the dCS Lina, Zach thought the Cayin HA-300 MKII sounds significantly better with ZMFs using the higher 6 volts setting.



Cheers, I will check this out today . I don’t think TT2 can go as high as 6, from memory it tops out at around 5v. I will experiment when I get Mk2 to see what works best and if it can take higher voltage than I will try that.


----------



## mfgillia

msq123 said:


> Cheers, I will check this out today . I don’t think TT2 can go as high as 6, from memory it tops out at around 5v. I will experiment when I get Mk2 to see what works best and if it can take higher voltage than I will try that.


Also definitely don't forget to try out the XLR versus 4.4 headphone outputs. So far I seem to be favoring the 4.4 on high impedance with the Atriums and VCs. This might change though once I finally receive the Spring 3, which outputs higher at 5.8 volts.


----------



## msq123

mfgillia said:


> Also definitely don't forget to try out the XLR versus 4.4 headphone outputs. So far I seem to be favoring the 4.4 on high impedance with the Atriums and VCs. This might change though once I finally receive the Spring 3, which outputs higher at 5.8 volts.



How do you get on with IEMs on Cayin? I noticed you have mest Mk2 which I own as well and is on its way back to me after custom re-shelling. Not something I will be using IEMs a lot on my desk but curious how Ha-300 handles IEMs and the level of hiss in the background? Ta


----------



## mfgillia

msq123 said:


> How do you get on with IEMs on Cayin? I noticed you have mest Mk2 which I own as well and is on its way back to me after custom re-shelling. Not something I will be using IEMs a lot on my desk but curious how Ha-300 handles IEMs and the level of hiss in the background? Ta


4.4 on the Cayin works fantastic for my IEMs - I can't hear any noise at all even less than the VCs for some mysterious reason. Love the Mest MK2 CIEMs too. I could never wear any IEMs for more than an hour or so before re-shelling the Mests.


----------



## Sampajanna

With most cans the 6v output in dac mode from the TT2 Means that the first tic on the Cayin is already really loud. I put the tt2 in preamp mode and get the volume to where i can move the Cayin to the 10 o’clock position and the sound blooms and opens up way more than TT2 on dac and Cayin real low volume…. YMMV but i have found this combo great. I also like that I can use the TT2 with headphones direct for a very different type of sound from the Cayin. In different combos, with different cans, and on different types of music, the versatility is great. For example, my Utopia with the Cayin are a marriage made in Heaven (and frankly what sold me on the Cayin in the first place as I heard the combo at a shop). But with my Elite, the Cayin can be soft on certain types of music. For that, I go direct into the TT2 and bam—a whole new sound signature. I have found over the years that a lot of my personal “upgraditis” isnt really a desire for “better,” whatever that is, but simply for something different. The juxtaposition of Chord and Cayin is a wonderful spectrum of different sounds. Just my two cents….


----------



## msq123

mfgillia said:


> 4.4 on the Cayin works fantastic for my IEMs - I can't hear any noise at all even less than the VCs for some mysterious reason. Love the Mest MK2 CIEMs too. I could never wear any IEMs for more than an hour or so before re-shelling the Mests.


I am the same, can’t wear IEMs without readjusting every few minutes.  Tried many IEMs before locking down mest 2 as the one I should get customised. If it works then opens world of possibilities for trying other IEMs in custom shells.

Sorry I digress on this amp forum . Good to know I will be able to enjoy it on this tube amp.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Sampajanna said:


> my Utopia with the Cayin are a marriage made in Heaven (and frankly what sold me on the Cayin in the first place as I heard the combo at a shop)


I am almost the same case as you, I demoed the mk2 with my Susvara but was recommended to also listen to the utopia, it definitely helped to sell the mk2 for sure.

Maybe after getting an upgraded pair of 300b tubes I will go for the utopia



mfgillia said:


> 4.4 on the Cayin works fantastic for my IEMs - I can't hear any noise at all even less than the VCs for some mysterious reason. Love the Mest MK2 CIEMs too. I could never wear any IEMs for more than an hour or so before re-shelling the Mests.


I also mostly agree with this, could not hear any noise on my z1r off the 4.4mm output at regular listening levels, but at slightly higher levels without music playing the buzz is there for me (although it is still very minute, just something to note, in case you are particular about these type of things)

YMMV of course, probably system dependent


----------



## msq123

ARCXENOS said:


> I also mostly agree with this, could not hear any noise on my z1r off the 4.4mm output at regular listening levels, but at slightly higher levels without music playing the buzz is there for me (although it is still very minute, just something to note, in case you are particular about these type of things)
> 
> YMMV of course, probably system dependent



I think that’s fair, can’t expect a complete black background on a tube amp but if it’s minute when no music is playing and not noticeable during normal listening then it’s pretty good. Thanks for your input.


----------



## Erwinatm (Jun 30, 2022)

msq123 said:


> I think that’s fair, can’t expect a complete black background on a tube amp but if it’s minute when no music is playing and not noticeable during normal listening then it’s pretty good. Thanks for your input.


Yes, hum from tubes is inevitable, it's inherited. Even in big speakers you can hear it if you listen closely to the drivers. But it should not be loud enough till it disturbs the music. For me  HA300 Mk2 is a very quiet tube amps.


----------



## mfgillia (Jun 25, 2022)

Sampajanna said:


> With most cans the 6v output in dac mode from the TT2 Means that the first tic on the Cayin is already really loud. I put the tt2 in preamp mode and get the volume to where i can move the Cayin to the 10 o’clock position and the sound blooms and opens up way more than TT2 on dac and Cayin real low volume….


Been pretty impressed with the new 41-steps ALPS balanced potentiometer on the MKII providing plenty of range from IEMs to ZMFs with my DAC outputting 4 volts.


----------



## mfgillia

Erwinatm said:


> Yes, hum from tubes is inevitable, it's inherited. Even in big speakers you can hear it if you listen closely to the drivers. But it should not be loud enough till it disturbs the music. For me the hum from HA300 Mk2 is still tolerable.


I don't hear any hum at all on mine but do hear some hiss under some conditions most notably with the music off, volume turned up to max on high impedance with the VCs plugged into the XLRs.  

Even in these conditions though, the noise floor IMHO is still quite low and near impossible to hear with either the music playing or my normal afternoon levels of background noise.


----------



## Erwinatm

mfgillia said:


> I don't hear any hum at all on mine but do hear some hiss under some conditions most notably with the music off, volume turned up to max on high impedance with the VCs plugged into the XLRs.
> 
> Even in these conditions though, the noise floor IMHO is still quite low and near impossible to hear with either the music playing or my normal afternoon levels of background noise.



I can hear slightly hum noise at medium gain with my Atrium, VC & grado. Not with meze Empyrean. 

But again it doesn't bother me. Have been playing with tubes for many many years and still have  200w class A triode monoblock for my stereo setup, I can say the noise level from HA300 is considered small.

Cheers


----------



## dadracer2

Of the many things I don't profess to know much about, electronics is but one. I wanted to read around the subject of amplifier design and especially the SETA. In my meanderings through the interweb I found this article by Herb Reichert which I found very interesting and helpful. Therefore if you are like me and enjoy the SETA sound but want to know more of the tech detail then maybe this will help you too...   https://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0709/flesh_blood.htm


----------



## rmsanger

dadracer2 said:


> Did you decide yet on which amp to go for?


I’m likely going mk1 used and then upgrading ss chain.  Not sure that mk2 is really that much better:

im targeting luxman p750 as my ss upgrade.


----------



## dadracer2

rmsanger said:


> I’m likely going mk1 used and then upgrading ss chain.  Not sure that mk2 is really that much better:
> 
> im targeting luxman p750 as my ss upgrade.


I don't believe the SQ changes from the mk1 to mk2 will be any more than from the changes to the valves, as the other changes seem unlikely to change the SQ . That being said I know these changes were at least in part due to the lack of TJ Full Music valves but I haven't heard the 2 amps side by side so I cannot be sure!

How about the Niimbus US4+ if you want to get a TOTL SS design?


----------



## mfgillia (Jun 27, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> I don't believe the SQ changes from the mk1 to mk2 will be any more than from the changes to the valves, as the other changes seem unlikely to change the SQ . That being said I know these changes were at least in part due to the lack of TJ Full Music valves but I haven't heard the 2 amps side by side so I cannot be sure!
> 
> How about the Niimbus US4+ if you want to get a TOTL SS design?


They evidently made a large number of changes many of which was to address customer feedback. In the video with the lead product engineer available on their yt page they go through many of the ones listed in the beginning of this thread.

Two of the more notable results appear to be the more usable volume control and noticeably lower noise floor. A friend with the Mk1 had complained there was too much noise for his VC but definitely don't have that problem on my MKII. .

Regarding SQ, I know some have complained about the switch to the Genelex Gold Lion PX300B tubes feeling the prior ones sounded superior from their past experience.


----------



## dadracer2

mfgillia said:


> They evidently made a large number of changes many of which was to address customer feedback. In the video with the lead product engineer available on their yt page they go through many of the ones listed in the beginning of this thread.
> 
> Two of the more notable results appear to be the more usable volume control and noticeably lower noise floor. A friend with the Mk1 had complained there was too much noise for his VC but definitely don't have that problem on my MKII. .
> 
> Regarding SQ, I know some have complained about the switch to the Genelex Gold Lion PX300B tubes feeling the prior ones sounded superior from their past experience.


Yes, I watched that too, and also read all the comments around the mk2 launch by Andy. I'm just saying that of the changes made there doesn't appear to be a difference in the SQ that is greater than that caused by the valve swaps. In fact the 6SN7 would probably be the single biggest, followed by the 300B. Other items such as the volume controller and the feet on the amp are not as likely to alter the SQ by so much.    

If I had to buy the amp again from scratch I would certainly get the mk2 as I like the black styling, but I wont be trying to trade up from a mk1 unless a lottery win arrives.


----------



## tdx

Has anyone with either the MK1 or MK2 model compared them to the Woo WA33? Curious how similar or different they sound, esp. given the large price difference.

Thanks


----------



## dadracer2

tdx said:


> Has anyone with either the MK1 or MK2 model compared them to the Woo WA33? Curious how similar or different they sound, esp. given the large price difference.
> 
> Thanks


Try @llamaluv and drop a PM, I think he has owned both. They are quite different amps with the Woo running push pull 2A3 and the Cayin SET 300B. The Woo WA5 would be a closer comparison in terms of operating tech at least.


----------



## llamaluv

dadracer2 said:


> Try @llamaluv and drop a PM, I think he has owned both. They are quite different amps with the Woo running push pull 2A3 and the Cayin SET 300B. The Woo WA5 would be a closer comparison in terms of operating tech at least.



Lemme share my PM response to @tdx just now:



> I think it all depends on your priorities, sound-wise.
> 
> The WA33 is faster and more resolving and more 'solid-state-like', which is actually the reason I got rid of it; I didn't feel like it added anything essential that I couldn't get from my pre-existing solid state setup.
> 
> The HA300 has been more satisfying to me due to it providing more body and 'musicality'. I've also found that you can make it more or less "300B-like" if desired with different combinations of tubes and other tweaks.


----------



## dadracer2

llamaluv said:


> Lemme share my PM response to @tdx just now:


Cheers, I'm sure @tdx will be happy with your support.

Did you find much difference in the soundstage and imaging in the 2 amps? Just thought I'd add my own question!


----------



## llamaluv

dadracer2 said:


> Cheers, I'm sure @tdx will be happy with your support.
> 
> Did you find much difference in the soundstage and imaging in the 2 amps? Just thought I'd add my own question!



Haha, that's similar to what they asked me as well. Copy-pasta, and slightly tweaked (focused on the Susvara, though):

"Mmm, I go back and forth when I think about the two amps with the Susvara (at least based on memory).​​I wasn't a huge fan of the Susvara on the WA33. I like it a little better on the HA300 overall and use it that way periodically, and sometimes like it a great deal (my impressions and reactions are always a moving target!).​​I think soundstage between the two is similar and probably has more to do with the specific tubes and other setup factors. I found the Susvara soundstage size on the WA33 in general to be just "pretty good", and same for the HA300. Also, I think 300B and 2A3 have a different character in how they 'create' the soundstage and project images, though I don't know how to put it into words exactly.​​For precision of sounds including things like imaging, I think the WA33 probably gets the nod, slightly, but that's mostly just speculation given how long it's been for me..."​


----------



## dadracer2

llamaluv said:


> Haha, that's similar to what they asked me as well. Copy-pasta, and slightly tweaked (focused on the Susvara, though):
> 
> "Mmm, I go back and forth when I think about the two amps with the Susvara (at least based on memory).​​I wasn't a huge fan of the Susvara on the WA33. I like it a little better on the HA300 overall and use it that way periodically, and sometimes like it a great deal (my impressions and reactions are always a moving target!).​​I think soundstage between the two is similar and probably has more to do with the specific tubes and other setup factors. I found the Susvara soundstage size on the WA33 in general to be just "pretty good", and same for the HA300. Also, I think 300B and 2A3 have a different character in how they 'create' the soundstage and project images, though I don't know how to put it into words exactly.​​For precision of sounds including things like imaging, I think the WA33 probably gets the nod, slightly, but that's mostly just speculation given how long it's been for me..."​


Thanks for this. If the Susvara is not your headphone of choice then what has been your favourite with the HA300?


----------



## llamaluv

dadracer2 said:


> Thanks for this. If the Susvara is not your headphone of choice then what has been your favourite with the HA300?



That's a hard one for me. I tend to be repeatedly surprised as new headphones have come thru my system by how much I've like almost everything I've plugged into the HA300.

I think I like it best with the TC.


----------



## dadracer2

llamaluv said:


> That's a hard one for me. I tend to be repeatedly surprised as new headphones have come thru my system by how much I've like almost everything I've plugged into the HA300.
> 
> I think I like it best with the TC.


----------



## dadracer2

Ah ok, cool. They are not headphones I have had the chance to try. I did try the 1266 (not sure what version) and the bass was remarkable but I couldn't find a comfortable position for them on my head.


----------



## Andykong (Jun 27, 2022)

rmsanger said:


> I’m likely going mk1 used and then upgrading ss chain.  Not sure that mk2 is really that much better:
> 
> im targeting luxman p750 as my ss upgrade.





dadracer2 said:


> I don't believe the SQ changes from the mk1 to mk2 will be any more than from the changes to the valves, as the other changes seem unlikely to change the SQ . That being said I know these changes were at least in part due to the lack of TJ Full Music valves but I haven't heard the 2 amps side by side so I cannot be sure!
> 
> How about the Niimbus US4+ if you want to get a TOTL SS design?





mfgillia said:


> They evidently made a large number of changes many of which was to address customer feedback. In the video with the lead product engineer available on their yt page they go through many of the ones listed in the beginning of this thread.
> 
> Two of the more notable results appear to be the more usable volume control and noticeably lower noise floor. A friend with the Mk1 had complained there was too much noise for his VC but definitely don't have that problem on my MKII. .
> 
> Regarding SQ, I know some have complained about the switch to the Genelex Gold Lion PX300B tubes feeling the prior ones sounded superior from their past experience.



Did you come across our previous discussions *HERE *and *HERE*? 

We have stated our aim loud and clear:  HA-300MK2 is an update to fit the HA-300 design into the current high-end headphone industry.  We didn't start off to design an upgrade for current HA-300 users.  If you didn't need the extra volume steps, or you don't use high-sensitivity headphones and are content with the noise control of the original HA-300, or 4.4mm connection is irrelevant,  the updates probably is not important to you.

Anyone who owns the original HA-300 should KEEP it,  there is no need to rush into an upgrade decision with HA-300MK2.   For those who plan to invest a hefty amount on tube rolling to improve the sound of their amplifier, you should do that instead of spending the budget to trade your original HA-300 for a new HA-300MK2.

However, if anyone is considering buying a second-hand HA-300, please be reminded that the warranty is not transferable, and your local dealer probably won't provide any support in the long run.  When anything happens, you need to ship the HA-300 back to China for repair/inspection and go through the logistics and custom exercise.


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> Did you come across our previous discussions *HERE *and *HERE*?
> 
> We have stated our aim loud and clear:  HA-300MK2 is an update to fit the HA-300 design into the current high-end headphone industry.  We didn't start off to design an upgrade for current HA-300 users.  If you didn't need the extra volume steps, or you don't use high-sensitivity headphones and are content with the noise control of the original HA-300, or 4.4mm connection is irrelevant,  the updates probably is not important to you.
> 
> ...


Thanks @Andykong, yes we got the message from before. I was just saying that I'd buy the mk2 if I was buying one new tomorrow, but I'm not so I am very happy to remain with my mk1 and yes looking forward to some valve rolling shortly.


----------



## Erwinatm

dadracer2 said:


> Ah ok, cool. They are not headphones I have had the chance to try. I did try the 1266 (not sure what version) and the bass was remarkable but I couldn't find a comfortable position for them on my head.


I've listed to both 1266TC and Susvara. Frankly speaking, I prefer Susvara over 1266. Although 1266 is better in technical aspects, slamming tight and controlled bass, wider soundstage, transparant treble. I found susvara has sweeter mids,  more musicality and engaging.

It's a pity at that time I haven't got the HA300 yet. I was driving both phones with either Formula S or Riviera.


----------



## JAFHIFI90

I'm quite a newbie to the tube world, I've spent my life in the SS world looking for a tube headphone amplifier and found the HA-6A at an affordable price, but I've read about the hiss and hum issues especially that I'll use it with high sensitivity headphones like the Meze Elite and I'll probably love trying IEM on it. I'm currently seriously considering the HA-300MK2, but I don't know if the HA-300MK2 at this price is suitable for a beginner in this world?


----------



## justanut

JAFHIFI90 said:


> I'm quite a newbie to the tube world, I've spent my life in the SS world looking for a tube headphone amplifier and found the HA-6A at an affordable price, but I've read about the hiss and hum issues especially that I'll use it with high sensitivity headphones like the Meze Elite and I'll probably love trying IEM on it. I'm currently seriously considering the HA-300MK2, but I don't know if the HA-300MK2 at this price is suitable for a beginner in this world?


Only you can answer that since we have no way of knowing your financial situation. This is my first tube amp, decided to aim as high as I can reasonably afford rather than go low and waste more money upgrading in the future.


----------



## Erwinatm

JAFHIFI90 said:


> I'm quite a newbie to the tube world, I've spent my life in the SS world looking for a tube headphone amplifier and found the HA-6A at an affordable price, but I've read about the hiss and hum issues especially that I'll use it with high sensitivity headphones like the Meze Elite and I'll probably love trying IEM on it. I'm currently seriously considering the HA-300MK2, but I don't know if the HA-300MK2 at this price is suitable for a beginner in this world?


In my system, no hum from HA300 to Meze Empyrean. 

It's ok If you start from top tier, except you will find many amps below yours, the quality is mediocre ....peace..

On the other hand, if you start from lower tier one, you will appreciate more the higher tier one.

Of course the first choice damage you more if you pick wrong combination. A good system is a synergy not only from 1 gear in the chain.

Cheers.


----------



## JAFHIFI90

justanut said:


> Only you can answer that since we have no way of knowing your financial situation. This is my first tube amp, decided to aim as high as I can reasonably afford rather than go low and waste more money upgrading in the future.


What I'm thinking is starting from the end of the game instead of going up the ladder from the bottom to the top. This will cost me more money, time and effort.


----------



## justanut

JAFHIFI90 said:


> What I'm thinking is starting from the end of the game instead of going up the ladder from the bottom to the top. This will cost me more money, time and effort.


Exactly my consideration.. no regrets! It is making all my mid-fi gear sing~


----------



## JAFHIFI90

Erwinatm said:


> In my system, no hum from HA300 to Meze Empyrean.
> 
> It's ok If you start from top tier, except you will find many amps below yours, the quality is mediocre ....peace..
> 
> ...


Wonderful, I think Empyrean is very close to Elite sensitivity, I do not want to put my first step in the world of tube at a lower level, it will take me more time and money, especially since I have a system at a high level.

I will connect it to L.K.S MH-DA005 which is an amazing Delta-Sigma DAC but it needs that magic tube touch and tone, Meze Elite is also going for more transparency than Empyrean so I find the tube's amp will be more important than SS.


----------



## JAFHIFI90

justanut said:


> Exactly my consideration.. no regrets! It is making all my mid-fi gear sing~


What about heat in the Cayin HA-300 Mkii? I have read that the world of tubes is very hot.


----------



## justanut

JAFHIFI90 said:


> What about heat in the Cayin HA-300 Mkii? I have read that the world of tubes is very hot.


Just don't touch them while in operation? The cage helps. You won't feel the heat next to it. Only the air above the tubes would feet hot.


----------



## mfgillia (Jun 28, 2022)

JAFHIFI90 said:


> I'm quite a newbie to the tube world, I've spent my life in the SS world looking for a tube headphone amplifier and found the HA-6A at an affordable price, but I've read about the hiss and hum issues especially that I'll use it with high sensitivity headphones like the Meze Elite and I'll probably love trying IEM on it. I'm currently seriously considering the HA-300MK2, but I don't know if the HA-300MK2 at this price is suitable for a beginner in this world?


This Cayin was my first tube amp ever after researching different options from the usual suspects for about a year or so. Original plan was and still is to upgrade to two higher end headphone amps - SS & tubes. So I leaned against tube amps with ss rectification and/or reports of leaning more towards a ss sound signature. Also I wanted something that could work with a wider range of headphones and IEMs so that ruled out many OTLs.

Ultimately decided on the Cayin HA-300MK2 after it was recommended to pair very well with Atriums by Zach at ZMF. So that recommendation plus the bundled discount pushed me over the edge.

So personally I would just focus on researching the products that most appeal to you, which best fits your use case and within your budget.


----------



## Erwinatm (Jun 28, 2022)

JAFHIFI90 said:


> Wonderful, I think Empyrean is very close to Elite sensitivity, I do not want to put my first step in the world of tube at a lower level, it will take me more time and money, especially since I have a system at a high level.
> 
> I will connect it to L.K.S MH-DA005 which is an amazing Delta-Sigma DAC but it needs that magic tube touch and tone, Meze Elite is also going for more transparency than Empyrean so I find the tube's amp will be more important than SS.


HA300 Mk2 will work very well with your elite, so it does to my empyrean. This amp is not like old fashion 300B tube SET amp, it is transparant, dynamic and still has the 300B mids magic.

For the heat, since it is operating in class A will be hot. Just don't touch the tubes, everything else is warm and won't burn your hands (depends on your room temp also).


----------



## dadracer2

Erwinatm said:


> HA300 Mk2 will work very well with your elite, so it does to my empyrean. This amp is not like old fashion 300B tube SET amp, it is transparant, dynamic and still has the 300B mids magic.
> 
> For the heat, since it is operating in class A will be hot. Just don't touch the tubes, everything else is warm and won't burn your hands (depends on your room temp also).


Just to mention that you shouldn't touch valves with your bare hands even when the valves are cold. You should use a cloth or cotton gloves if you need to swap out valves unless your are holding the valve by it's base of course.


----------



## justanut

My 4-pin XLR cables for the HD800S are in.. SQ took another significant step forward but I can't tell if its the transition from 4 core silver Litz to 8 core Cryo copper Litz, or 4.4mm to XLR... changed too many variables. But no complaints haha.. this is my fav combo currently.

Am now using HD650 on STD, R10 on 4.4 Balanced and HD800S on 4-pin Balanced. My trinity setup.


----------



## dadracer2

justanut said:


> My 4-pin XLR cables for the HD800S are in.. SQ took another significant step forward but I can't tell if its the transition from 4 core silver Litz to 8 core Cryo copper Litz, or 4.4mm to XLR... changed too many variables. But no complaints haha.. this is my fav combo currently.
> 
> Am now using HD650 on STD, R10 on 4.4 Balanced and HD800S on 4-pin Balanced. My trinity setup.


What XLR cable did you choose for the HD800S by the way?


----------



## Erwinatm

Regarding hum noise from HA300 to Atrium, i just found the cause yesterday. It is from RCA connection. I have tried 3 different RCA the hum is still there.

Yesterday, i tried using XLR Balance, it's gone with low or medium gain. With high gain still there but only when you turn it up to max vol and you have to concentrate to hear it. I would consider it no hum no noticeable noise.

I will edit my comments for this problem in previous posts.


----------



## mfgillia

Erwinatm said:


> Regarding hum noise from HA300 to Atrium, i just found the cause yesterday. It is from RCA connection. I have tried 3 different RCA the hum is still there.
> 
> Yesterday, i tried using XLR Balance, it's gone with low or medium gain. With high gain still there but only when you turn it up to max vol and you have to concentrate to hear it. I would consider it no hum no noticeable noise.
> 
> I will edit my comments for this problem in previous posts.


Interesting - I hear no hum at all with any of my headphones or IEMs but haven't used RCAs yet.


----------



## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> Just to mention that you shouldn't touch valves with your bare hands even when the valves are cold. You should use a cloth or cotton gloves if you need to swap out valves unless your are holding the valve by it's base of course.



We concur with dadracer2.  Tubes don't appreciate contact with oils and such from your hands. Oils and dirt build up on the glass envelope of the tube, eventually causing it to run hotter than it should, shortening its life.  That's why Cayin provides a pair of white gloves with every tube amplifier.   If you have to remove or install a vacuum tube, wear the gloves and wait until the tubes are cooled.


----------



## Erwinatm

mfgillia said:


> Interesting - I hear no hum at all with any of my headphones or IEMs but haven't used RCAs yet.


Try it with RCA see if yours is same like mine. 

I hv tried it with Grado Ps1000e which is 32 ohm/99.8 db too,  this amp still very quiet with XLR connection. Only max level in high gain is barely noticeable. 

Cayin has done an awesome job.


----------



## Andykong

Erwinatm said:


> Regarding hum noise from HA300 to Atrium, i just found the cause yesterday. It is from RCA connection. I have tried 3 different RCA the hum is still there.
> 
> Yesterday, i tried using XLR Balance, it's gone with low or medium gain. With high gain still there but only when you turn it up to max vol and you have to concentrate to hear it. I would consider it no hum no noticeable noise.
> 
> I will edit my comments for this problem in previous posts.



Thank you very much for your update.  This is a very interesting observation. You have tried 3 different RCA cables and they all hum at the same condition?  Are these cables shielded? 

The biggest difference between XLR and RCA in domestic sound systems is grounding and shielding.  The XLR has separated ground, the RCA has common ground.  XLR cables tends to have copper/aluminum shelding under PVC jackets.  Coaxial RCA cables have similiar shielding design but a lot of analogue RCA cable didn't have similar feature to protect the conductors.  The diagram below is an example of shielding in XLR cables (Gotham 11301)


----------



## Erwinatm

Andykong said:


> Thank you very much for your update.  This is a very interesting observation. You have tried 3 different RCA cables and they all hum at the same condition?  Are these cables shielded?
> 
> The biggest difference between XLR and RCA in domestic sound systems is grounding and shielding.  The XLR has separated ground, the RCA has common ground.  XLR cables tends to have copper/aluminum shelding under PVC jackets.  Coaxial RCA cables have similiar shielding design but a lot of analogue RCA cable didn't have similar feature to protect the conductors.  The diagram below is an example of shielding in XLR cables (Gotham 11301)


Yes Andy,  I tried it with Crystal Cable micro diamond, Cardas Hexlink, Mapleshade Clearview (unshielded).


----------



## skedra

Andykong said:


> Thank you very much for your update.  This is a very interesting observation. You have tried 3 different RCA cables and they all hum at the same condition?  Are these cables shielded?
> 
> The biggest difference between XLR and RCA in domestic sound systems is grounding and shielding.  The XLR has separated ground, the RCA has common ground.  XLR cables tends to have copper/aluminum shelding under PVC jackets.  Coaxial RCA cables have similiar shielding design but a lot of analogue RCA cable didn't have similar feature to protect the conductors.  The diagram below is an example of shielding in XLR cables (Gotham 11301)


I have a set of fully shielded RCAs I'll try once my unit comes in and compare with XLR.


----------



## Erwinatm

skedra said:


> I have a set of fully shielded RCAs I'll try once my unit comes in and compare with XLR.


Yes you can try them.

Actually, hum/noise can be caused by many aspects such as : tubes, ac power, ground loop, cables, magnetic interference etc. During turntable time, I always battling with ground loop ...

My system consists of head fi and also my stereo setup. I have solved my problems by changing connection to XLR. 

CMIIW


----------



## justanut

dadracer2 said:


> What XLR cable did you choose for the HD800S by the way?


Null Audio makes fantastic value for money ones.


----------



## JAFHIFI90

Speaking of cables, I've tried some of the leading brands that friends use, but I've found the "COPPER COLOR" brand to be the best of them all at a lower price. Now I made all my system cables out of them, it's a Chinese brand with categories, I use "BETA" and "GAMMA" and they give me good performance in their price, they also have the flagship "ALPHA" but at a painful price.


----------



## dadracer2

justanut said:


> Null Audio makes fantastic value for money ones.


Thanks I will check them out for the future.


----------



## Erwinatm

JAFHIFI90 said:


> Speaking of cables, I've tried some of the leading brands that friends use, but I've found the "COPPER COLOR" brand to be the best of them all at a lower price. Now I made all my system cables out of them, it's a Chinese brand with categories, I use "BETA" and "GAMMA" and they give me good performance in their price, they also have the flagship "ALPHA" but at a painful price.


Are they selling online? Web link?

Thanks


----------



## JAFHIFI90

Erwinatm said:


> Are they selling online? Web link?
> 
> Thanks


Their official store is on Taobao, but they don't ship outside of China, I bought from this (store), and there is also this (store) but I have never dealt with it.


----------



## Andykong

*HA-3A*, a little brother of HA-6A and HA-300MK2. More information and photo next week.


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> *HA-3A*, a little brother of HA-6A and HA-300MK2. More information and photo next week.


Oh that's unfair....


----------



## JAFHIFI90 (Jul 3, 2022)

Andykong said:


> *HA-3A*, a little brother of HA-6A and HA-300MK2. More information and photo next week.


Awesome! Excited to announce the new baby of the family, it would be a great solution for those struggling with space in the desk setup.


----------



## tdx

Anyone with the Mk2 version can recommend some good upgrades for the 6SN7 tubes? Planning to get better 300Bs but not sure about the the 6SN7s. I know the Mk1 benefitted from upgraded tubes but since Mk2 now comes with some pretty well regarded Tung Sol tubes, I'm wondering if there are better tubes out there or if it would just be a lateral move to upgrade. 
Thanks


----------



## ken6217

There are Tung Sol and there are Tung Sol. I doubt those are NOS black glass round plates.


----------



## tdx

ken6217 said:


> There are Tung Sol and there are Tung Sol. I doubt those are NOS black glass round plates.


Thanks. So those are the ones you would recommend? Or are there even better ones?


----------



## ken6217

Well I would recommend them, but the prices are exorbitant if you can find them. $500-$600 pair.

Ken Rad VT-231, RCA 5691 Red Base, Sylvania Bad Boy to name a few. Depends on what type of sound you’re looking for.

Here is an EXCELLENT thread on 6SN7 tubes and variants.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## Palyodgree

tdx said:


> Anyone with the Mk2 version can recommend some good upgrades for the 6SN7 tubes? Planning to get better 300Bs but not sure about the the 6SN7s. I know the Mk1 benefitted from upgraded tubes but since Mk2 now comes with some pretty well regarded Tung Sol tubes, I'm wondering if there are better tubes out there or if it would just be a lateral move to upgrade.
> Thanks


If you don’t mind me saying, I would let your new MK2 fully run in before swapping tubes , any changes are more readily heard and understood better. Just saying ..


----------



## tdx

Palyodgree said:


> If you don’t mind me saying, I would let your new MK2 fully run in before swapping tubes , any changes are more readily heard and understood better. Just saying ..


Of course. Just want to gather info for if/when I feel like tube rolling. But I'm sure stock tubes are good enough.


----------



## llamaluv (Jul 5, 2022)

Hi, noise question here.

When using dynamic driver headphones using the single-ended out, I can hear a radio station. Sometimes, it's loud enough that I can almost make out the words being spoken (!). It's just about prominent enough to interfere with quiet passages in the music. Much like when you play with an antenna (like, the _intentional _kind, lol), it gets better "reception" when oriented at certain angles. As luck would have it, it just so happens to be it's at its worst when I'm in my usual sitting position relative to the amp. I think it's worse at night than during the day.

I have an OG HA-300, the headphone cable is a Norne Drausk, and the headphones are the Atrium. I've never noticed this phenomenon while using any other amp, tube-based or otherwise.

Anyone have ideas on how this can be mitigated? A headphone cable that uses teflon shielding, maybe? I may not motivated enough to address the problem by buying yet another new headphone cable, but yea...

FWIW, aside from the above, I've never had noise issues with the HA-300 that a quick re-seating of the tubes hasn't fixed


----------



## justanut

llamaluv said:


> Hi, noise question here.
> 
> When using dynamic driver headphones using the single-ended out, I can hear a radio station. Sometimes, it's loud enough that I can almost make out the words being spoken (!). It's just about prominent enough to interfere with quiet passages in the music. Much like when you play with an antenna (like, the _intentional _kind, lol), it gets better "reception" when oriented at certain angles. As luck would have it, it just so happens to be it's at its worst when I'm in my usual sitting position relative to the amp. I think it's worse at night than during the day.
> 
> ...


Is your power coming thru some kind of conditioner or direct from mains?


----------



## llamaluv

justanut said:


> Is your power coming thru some kind of conditioner or direct from mains?


Hmmm, an Audioquest Niagara 1200. I'll try connecting it direct to the mains as a test later tonight, when it's audible again.


----------



## Palyodgree

llamaluv said:


> Hi, noise question here.
> 
> When using dynamic driver headphones using the single-ended out, I can hear a radio station. Sometimes, it's loud enough that I can almost make out the words being spoken (!). It's just about prominent enough to interfere with quiet passages in the music. Much like when you play with an antenna (like, the _intentional _kind, lol), it gets better "reception" when oriented at certain angles. As luck would have it, it just so happens to be it's at its worst when I'm in my usual sitting position relative to the amp. I think it's worse at night than during the day.
> 
> ...


Years ago I once listen to a local AM station in the back ground of loud buzzing while testing my home’s receptacles using a Entech noise meter , it can be a real problem tracing these grid and home electrical issues like ground loop buzz so on and so forth ,….Sure I would try shield cable‘s . Our new place is night and day different the Entech meter readings are much lower with no AM radio reception and no ground loop issues thank God .


----------



## Ysound

Anyone with MK2 noticed the power supply transformer's hums, this is replacement unit I received and I don't recall the first unit having this noise?
When powering on, it will start out a little loud for a brief 2-3 seconds then settled down to steady hums that it audible standing 2ft. away.
I checked all the tubes making sure in sit nice and tight and also rearrange them to see if that would help alleviate the noise.


----------



## Trickness

Ysound said:


> Anyone with MK2 noticed the power supply transformer's hums, this is replacement unit I received and I don't recall the first unit having this noise?
> When powering on, it will start out a little loud for a brief 2-3 seconds then settled down to steady hums that it audible standing 2ft. away.
> I checked all the tubes making sure in sit nice and tight and also rearrange them to see if that would help alleviate the noise.


Mine makes zero noise, dead silent.


----------



## ken6217

Not to change the subject, but what was wrong with the first one?


----------



## Palyodgree (Jul 6, 2022)

Trickness said:


> Mine makes zero noise, dead silent.


Thickness I see you live in NYC , we lived in a big city high rise a few years ago that particular building caused havoc with my stereo . Though at first I blamed the component noise of a bad transformer in a new server , then later with the help of the audio dealer the cause was most likely the building’s wiring causing ground loop buzz effecting anything with a transformer even with a power conditioner could not entirely filter the buzz away as faint as it was. 
Those exact same components in our new home not a peep of noise came out of it , I now have the HA-300 MK1next to a David Berning tube amplifiers , a transformerless topology the Cayin is the quietest operating tube component I’ve owned , if we would of stayed in that high rise i don’t think I would of enjoyed this hobby as much.


----------



## ken6217

Palyodgree said:


> Thickness I see you live in NYC , we lived in a big city high rise a few years ago that particular building caused havoc with my stereo . Though at first I blamed the component noise of a bad transformer in a new server , then later with the help of the audio dealer the cause was most likely the building’s wiring causing ground loop buzz effecting anything with a transformer even with a power conditioner could not entirely filter the buzz away as faint as it was.
> Those exact same components in our new home not a peep of noise came out of it , I now have the HA-300 MK1next to a David Berning tube amplifiers , a transformerless topology the Cayin is the quietest operating tube component I’ve owned , if we would of stayed in that high rise i don’t think I would of enjoyed this hobby as much.


However, the key is did the first one make noise or not? If not, then it’s the amp. 

On the other hand, it’s not unheard of for transformers to hum. My Audio Research amp did.

I’ll have my Mk2 on Friday I think, and I’ll post if it hums or not. 

The person I can answer your question is Cayin. Send an email to them. I found their customer service to be excellent.


----------



## mfgillia

Trickness said:


> Mine makes zero noise, dead silent.


Mine too - zero hum. Plugged directly into the wall.


----------



## Ysound

ken6217 said:


> Not to change the subject, but what was wrong with the first one?


Initially was using it with an HD820 and the electrical background noises was excessive with all impedance settings. Notified tech support and was ship out a replacement unit.
The replacement unit still have the excessive electrical background noises with the HD820 and according to Andykong the HD820 was one of the headphone that were not tested with the MK2. 
In hindsight there the original unit functions correctly and did not have the transformer hums. I'm now using it with the Susvara and there is not any detectable electrical background noises, just the power supply humming.


----------



## ken6217

I wonder if that noise is due to all 300 ohm headphones, or just the HD820. I’ll be using mine with the ZMF Verite Closed which is also 300 ohm.


----------



## Trickness

ken6217 said:


> I wonder if that noise is due to all 300 ohm headphones, or just the HD820. I’ll be using mine with the ZMF Verite Closed which is also 300 ohm.


A headphone is not going to make a transformer hum audibly from several feet away. If he’s had problems with two units I’d say there’s a strong chance that there is a power/RFI issue where he lives. Either that or extremely bad luck


----------



## ken6217

I wasn’t referring to the hum. I was referring to the electrical noise that you mentioned when using the HD 820


----------



## Trickness

ken6217 said:


> I wasn’t referring to the hum. I was referring to the electrical noise that you mentioned when using the HD 820


I think you have me mixed up with the OP!


----------



## llamaluv

llamaluv said:


> When using dynamic driver headphones using the single-ended out, I can hear a radio station.





justanut said:


> Is your power coming thru some kind of conditioner or direct from mains?





llamaluv said:


> Hmmm, an Audioquest Niagara 1200. I'll try connecting it direct to the mains as a test later tonight, when it's audible again.


I just tried the amp connected directly from the wall and unfortunately, no improvement. Also, I think the radio station is playing country music.


----------



## ken6217

Did you try it with a balanced cable?


----------



## llamaluv

ken6217 said:


> Did you try it with a balanced cable?


Yesss, no issue with balanced, only single-ended!


----------



## ken6217

Well at least you know there’s a solution even if your not happy with the solution.


----------



## paradoxper

ken6217 said:


> I wonder if that noise is due to all 300 ohm headphones, or just the HD820. I’ll be using mine with the ZMF Verite Closed which is also 300 ohm.


Roll in the Elrog 300B.


----------



## Erwinatm

llamaluv said:


> Yesss, no issue with balanced, only single-ended!


Same with me. Single ended has Slightly hum at medium and high gain with Atrium. Solved with XLR balance.


----------



## Palyodgree (Jul 7, 2022)

ken6217 said:


> However, the key is did the first one make noise or not? If not, then it’s the amp.
> 
> On the other hand, it’s not unheard of for transformers to hum. My Audio Research amp did.
> 
> ...


This was a highly regarded server what I thought had a faulty transformer you could hear from across the room,i supposed a number of factors I wasn’t even aware of were at play that added to degradation of my system . A similar issue with the member llamaluv hearing a radio station with noise when using single ended connection though switch to XLR and the problem seemingly goes away however in my case how much components degradation was robbed I wasn’t even aware of .
Power distribution components like Stromtank a pure sine wave inverter battery powered can power most components for hours at time is said to significantly drop the noise floor and improve overall performance like nothing else on the market , certainly nothing like a power conditioner or power regeneraters and what have you that plug into the wall can compete the dealer tells me . I would think would solve most electrical interference issues causing buzz and unwanted radio broadcast to be heard at worst too giving a system a jump in overall sound quality performance from what I’ve been told .
However pure sine wave inverters are a dime a dozen starting at a few hundred dollars with recharging battery, certain brands are interesting.


----------



## bluenight (Jul 7, 2022)

Someone suggested cayin-ha-300 to me to be a perfect paring with HD800S. Do you agree?

Also how does it compare to other tube amps or SS amps? Is it worth the asking price? Is it TOTL like Niimbus amp?

It could drive other TOTL HP as well with great result? Just not a HD800S one trick pony? Maybe in future i decide to buy other HP

I have bought the Ferrum Oor + Hypsos but does not sound that good with HD800S imo. Dont want to make that mistake again?

I name drop other contenders ive been thinking about Woo audio WA2 or WA22. Feliks Euforia or 20th anniversary edition.


----------



## Andykong

Ysound said:


> Anyone with MK2 noticed the power supply transformer's hums, this is replacement unit I received and I don't recall the first unit having this noise?
> When powering on, it will start out a little loud for a brief 2-3 seconds then settled down to steady hums that it audible standing 2ft. away.
> I checked all the tubes making sure in sit nice and tight and also rearrange them to see if that would help alleviate the noise.



If you have tried two HA-300MK2 in the same installation, with the same source and power supply condition, and you have hum with one set, but no hum with another, then we safely assumed that the hum is related to the second HA-300MK2.  However, we should perform some simple tests to minimize environmental implications before we certify the case.  Can you move your current HA-300MK2 to another location in your house and setup up a simple system for testing purposes? 

Preferably, 

The new location is connected to a different circuit breaker in your main electrical service panel.
Use a simple analog source such as CD/Bluray player, DAP line out or 3.5mm phone out of your mobile phone/computer (with a 3.5mm to RCA cable)
In all cases, please avoid any USB connection in your testing setup.
With any headphone other than the HD820? 
In other word, the new setup should be as different from your current setup as possible.  We are not testing sound quality in exercise, we merely check if the hum will existed in a completely different setup.  If fact, when you send the HA-300MK2 back to your dealer, they are going to test the unit in their system, which is also another completely different setup.  It would be difficult to everyone if the unit didn't hum in your dealer's system, so please give it a try so that before you do anything drastic regarding your current HA-300MK2.




Ysound said:


> Initially was using it with an HD820 and the electrical background noises was excessive with all impedance settings. Notified tech support and was ship out a replacement unit.
> The replacement unit still have the excessive electrical background noises with the HD820 and according to Andykong the HD820 was one of the headphone that were not tested with the MK2.
> In hindsight there the original unit functions correctly and did not have the transformer hums. I'm now using it with the Susvara and there is not any detectable electrical background noises, just the power supply humming.



Yes, if you ask me again specifically, the answer is the same, we didn't test HD820 with HA-300 or HA-300MK2.  

We used around 10 headphones in our development process, so if anyone asked a similar question, without another "popular" headphone, the answer will be similar: we didn't test your headphone in the development process. This is inevitable. 

However, we use the original HD800 as one of the reference headphones in our development process.  and we didn't encounter excessive electrical background noise with HD800.  We use the 6.35mm headphone cable that comes with HD800, and a DIY XLR4 cable.   We use a CD player as our analog source or iDAP-6+any DAC with a coaxial or AES digital connection. 

I didn't recall your system configuration.  Can you tell us more about your signal path?  Do you use PC as your digital source and connect to your DAC in USB?  Maybe you can check out the experience of some HA-6A users (*HERE* and *HERE*) who fight their noise problem and somehow traced the source of the noise to the PC.  They managed to solve the noise problem of their ZMF headphones (also 300oh) with adding a USB signal cleaner/ground isolator.  One user even traced the noise to *GPU loads*, so the debugging process can involve a lot of unexpected.


----------



## pguimaraes

Hey, guys, I have just installed speakers on my HA300 MKII. When switching from headphones to speakers, the sound completely moves to speakers and mute the headphones as expected, but if I switch back to headphones, the sound keeps playing on the speakers (lower level) and the headphones simultaneously. I was expecting to have sound either from headphones or from speakers at a time. Has anyone of you experienced that?


----------



## dnd3241

bluenight said:


> Someone suggested cayin-ha-300 to me to be a perfect paring with HD800S. Do you agree?
> 
> Also how does it compare to other tube amps or SS amps? Is it worth the asking price? Is it TOTL like Niimbus amp?
> 
> ...


Ferrum OOR good  for planar HP, for the Dynamic I prefer Tube Amp


----------



## Ysound

Andykong said:


> If you have tried two HA-300MK2 in the same installation, with the same source and power supply condition, and you have hum with one set, but no hum with another, then we safely assumed that the hum is related to the second HA-300MK2.  However, we should perform some simple tests to minimize environmental implications before we certify the case.  Can you move your current HA-300MK2 to another location in your house and setup up a simple system for testing purposes?
> 
> Preferably,
> 
> ...


Plugging the unit in a different area of house the buzzing hums still there.
However, I discovered that powering on the power supply without the amp connected to it the buzzing hum disappear completely and the power supply is dead silent.
Also I noticed the right transformer on the amp run cooler then the left transformer.
My previous unit, both transformer were equally warm.

My set up is:
Aurender N30SA to Esoteric D1X DAC with USB, DAC to HA-300 MK2 with XLR. Everything is plugged into Synergistic PowerCell SX.


----------



## ARCXENOS

@Andykong I am wondering if Cayin has a roughly estimated rating on how many insertions can the tube sockets do before it gets loose?
I think I must have swapped tubes like 6 times a month on average, but I imagine that will add up eventually.


Also for anyone else interested, I recently got a pair of Ampata socket savers, and I must say, they are absolutely tough to remove your tubes from. Will definitely not recommend, I had to remove the saver to safely remove tubes without applying additional pressure on the actual amp's socket itself, which entirely defeats the purpose of using a tube saver in the first place. It felt like pulling something out of the jaws of a stray dog.

 Maybe I had a bad pair, but definitely consider another brand if you are thinking of getting a passthrough, your precious tubes will thank you


----------



## Erwinatm

ARCXENOS said:


> @Andykong I am wondering if Cayin has a roughly estimated rating on how many insertions can the tube sockets do before it gets loose?
> I think I must have swapped tubes like 6 times a month on average, but I imagine that will add up eventually.
> 
> 
> ...


That's a lot tube rolling activities you've done or will do my friend. Personnally,  I try to avoid adding tube socket converter or anything that is unnecessary in the system. Keep the audio signal as short and simple as possible like the designer wants us to hear.

If it got loosen, just replace it and get a better one if possible.


----------



## Palyodgree

ARCXENOS said:


> @Andykong I am wondering if Cayin has a roughly estimated rating on how many insertions can the tube sockets do before it gets loose?
> I think I must have swapped tubes like 6 times a month on average, but I imagine that will add up eventually.
> 
> 
> ...


Looking for that personal flavour of sound , in the past few months Ive borrowed seven or eight popular dacs including servers / streamers and I found exactly what I was looking for , Im still using the stock tubes in my 300 MK 1.


----------



## wazzupi

Palyodgree said:


> Looking for that personal flavour of sound , in the past few months Ive borrowed seven or eight popular dacs including servers / streamers and I found exactly what I was looking for , Im still using the stock tubes in my 300 MK 1.


what dac did you go with ?


----------



## Palyodgree

wazzupi said:


> what dac did you go with ?


I found the Merason Dac 1 more to my liking at producing a little more realistic timbre especially with the human pitch, I had the Rockna WaveDream dac XLR model and Rockna WaveDream Net server i directly compared to my current front end I’m glad to be off the trend mill .


----------



## wazzupi

Palyodgree said:


> I found the Merason Dac 1 more to my liking at producing a little more realistic timbre especially with the human pitch, I had the Rockna WaveDream dac XLR model and Rockna WaveDream Net server i directly compared to my current front end I’m glad to be off the trend mill .


That’s one of the dacs I’ve been looking into too. Awesome to hear you good things.


----------



## Palyodgree

wazzupi said:


> That’s one of the dacs I’ve been looking into too. Awesome to hear you good things.


One other thing I’d like to mention the dealer lent me his floor model Merason I didn’t have a usb cable and said the Merason is available with i2s input as I used it with the Rockna components, he sent along a Audience FrontRow usb cable I figured he was just up selling me however after a week of home listening I didn’t want to try any other usb cable brand nor did I want the dac with a i2s input I liked it the way it was using usb with the Rockna Net server  including the RoseAudio server , one spectacular cable .


----------



## ken6217

Andy, are the KR Audio 300B HP tubes OK to use in the Mk2?


----------



## linziyi (Jul 14, 2022)

I just got a new unit. I am experiencing background noise at 120Hz. The noise doesn’t change when I turn the volume, even at 0 volume level, so I know it’s volume independent. It’s also present when no source/input is connected at all, so I think it’s source independent as well. I have hooked both hd800s (via 4 pin XLR) and hd650 (via 6.5mm) and can hear the noise on both headphones, both output, and all 3 impedance levels.

I’ve tried turning off all the circuit breakers in the house except for the one powering the amp, noise is still there. I’ve also tried the amp connected to different outlet in the house, as well as giving it its own power strip, and the noise is still present. There is also no router or modem near the amp.

I can also hear metal tapping noise when the tubes are heating up but so far I think this is normal. Right channel on the headphone is more susceptible to microphonics, that I hear louder noise transmitted to the right channel than the left one when I tap on anywhere on the amp.

I have read that people are saying this amp is “dead silent”, should I be worried? Thanks so much!


----------



## wazzupi

linziyi said:


> I just got a new unit. I am experiencing background noise at 120Hz. The noise doesn’t change when I turn the volume, even at 0 volume level, so I know it’s volume independent. It’s also present when no source/input is connected at all, so I think it’s source independent as well. I have hooked both hd800s (via 4 pin XLR) and hd650 (via 6.5mm) and can hear the noise on both headphones, both output, and all 3 impedance levels.
> 
> I’ve tried turning off all the circuit breakers in the house except for the one powering the amp, noise is still there. I’ve also tried the amp connected to different outlet in the house, as well as giving it its own power strip, and the noise is still present. There is also no router or modem near the amp.
> 
> ...


Metal tapping noise is a normal tube thing it can easily go away over time, but My mark 1 is dead silent until you turn the vlolume past 3 o clock or louder and that’s on low ohm headphones and iems… nothing hard to drive in my home I had the he6se a while back never had to get the amp to that point…


----------



## paradoxper

dadracer2 said:


> Thanks for this and I will check out these options. Like you the recommendations have been start with the 6SN7 as it is earlier in the signal path so will be likely to make the biggest difference. So far I am most tempted by the PSVANE CV181 mkii. I am a bit uncertain/confused/freaked by the myriad NOS valves so I will keep looking and at your suggestions. The 300b that I am quite drawn to is the new(ish) Audio Note 4300E which is truly a 300b and I'm uncertain why it has this designation. I believe they are made for AN by PSVANE to their design.
> 
> Cheers


Did you by chance try out the AN 4300E?


----------



## mfgillia

linziyi said:


> I have hooked both hd800s (via 4 pin XLR) and hd650 (via 6.5mm) and can hear the noise on both headphones, both output, and all 3 impedance levels.


Definitely try the 4.4 if you haven't already done so. I don't really hear any noise at all with the Atriums but can hear some with the VCs on high impedance out of XLRs. This is reduced to near zero using 4.4.


----------



## dadracer2

paradoxper said:


> Did you by chance try out the AN 4300E?


Not yet as I am starting with the 6SN7 and once I'm happy I will hopefully have saved up my pocket money for the 4300E...


----------



## wazzupi

linziyi said:


> I just got a new unit. I am experiencing background noise at 120Hz. The noise doesn’t change when I turn the volume, even at 0 volume level, so I know it’s volume independent. It’s also present when no source/input is connected at all, so I think it’s source independent as well. I have hooked both hd800s (via 4 pin XLR) and hd650 (via 6.5mm) and can hear the noise on both headphones, both output, and all 3 impedance levels.
> 
> I’ve tried turning off all the circuit breakers in the house except for the one powering the amp, noise is still there. I’ve also tried the amp connected to different outlet in the house, as well as giving it its own power strip, and the noise is still present. There is also no router or modem near the amp.
> 
> ...


Are you running rca or xlr ?


----------



## justanut

dadracer2 said:


> Thanks for this and I will check out these options. Like you the recommendations have been start with the 6SN7 as it is earlier in the signal path so will be likely to make the biggest difference. So far I am most tempted by the PSVANE CV181 mkii. I am a bit uncertain/confused/freaked by the myriad NOS valves so I will keep looking and at your suggestions. The 300b that I am quite drawn to is the new(ish) Audio Note 4300E which is truly a 300b and I'm uncertain why it has this designation. I believe they are made for AN by PSVANE to their design.
> 
> Cheers


The 4300E is interesting as it seems to be the same as Elrog Molybdenum tubes at a lower price.. Wonder how they compare?


----------



## linziyi

mfgillia said:


> Definitely try the 4.4 if you haven't already done so. I don't really hear any noise at all with the Atriums but can hear some with the VCs on high impedance out of XLRs. This is reduced to near zero using 4.4.


I don’t have any headphone with 4.4 connector sorry, but both XLR and 6.5 has noise at all impedance level so I suspect the noise is not related to output selection. 


wazzupi said:


> Are you running rca or xlr ?


I disconnected all input, so nothing is connected to the amp except for power. Noise is still there with nothing connected


----------



## wazzupi

linziyi said:


> I don’t have any headphone with 4.4 connector sorry, but both XLR and 6.5 has noise at all impedance level so I suspect the noise is not related to output selection.
> 
> I disconnected all input, so nothing is connected to the amp except for power. Noise is still there with nothing connected


that could cause noise and It states that you shouldn't leave the amp on without a source connected. but you still didn't answer did you use XLR and the noise was still there ?


----------



## ARCXENOS

linziyi said:


> I don’t have any headphone with 4.4 connector sorry, but both XLR and 6.5 has noise at all impedance level so I suspect the noise is not related to output selection.
> 
> I disconnected all input, so nothing is connected to the amp except for power. Noise is still there with nothing connected


The closest thing I have to your HD650 is my HD600, on the HD600 I can hear some noise via 6.35mm during idle so I wouldn't be too worried unless its really loud (i.e. you can still hear background noise even with music playing?)

But that said, on my setup and experience, different tubes do have different levels of noise, but I am not confident enough to speculate whether the tubes in your case are the issue


----------



## mfgillia (Jul 14, 2022)

linziyi said:


> I don’t have any headphone with 4.4 connector sorry, but both XLR and 6.5 has noise at all impedance level so I suspect the noise is not related to output selection.
> 
> I disconnected all input, so nothing is connected to the amp except for power. Noise is still there with nothing connected


The 4.4 balance output on the Cayin HA-300 MK2 is different than the XLR output and specially designed to produce less noise. Therefore, an easy recommendation is to get an XLR to 4.4 pigtail connector and try that next.

It would be unusual if you are then unable to notice less noise versus XLR and 6.5 outputs as so far it seems most everyone else does. Personally, I even use the 4.4 output with very sensitive IEMs and find that it works very well.


----------



## mfgillia

wazzupi said:


> that could cause noise and It states that you shouldn't leave the amp on without a source connected. but you still didn't answer *did you use XLR and the noise was still there* ?


Good question - In my setup I do have more noise out of the RCAs than the XLRs. I currently have both outputs from my DAC (Spring 3) going into the Cayin to test that out and switching back and forth can notice noise out of the RCA after I turn the volume past 2 o'clock. Its very minor but it is there.

Once the music plays though I can't hear it at all with the Atriums though more noticeable with the VCs out of the XLRs and 6.5.


----------



## wazzupi

mfgillia said:


> Good question - In my setup I do have more noise out of the RCAs than the XLRs. I currently have both outputs from my DAC (Spring 3) going into the Cayin to test that out and switching back and forth can notice noise out of the* RCA after I turn the volume past 2 o'clock*. Its very minor but it is there.
> 
> Once the music plays though I can't hear it at all with the Atriums though more noticeable with the VCs out of the XLRs and 6.5.


I believe this might be a normal thing especially out of RCA and I've never had to go past 2 o'clock(maybe even 1) on my Amp.


----------



## mfgillia

wazzupi said:


> I believe this might be a normal thing especially out of RCA and I've never had to go past 2 o'clock(maybe even 1) on my Amp.


Yep, I think so too. Definitely isn't an issue for me and couldn't imagine actually listening to music past 11 o'clock let alone 2 for my headphones and IEMs. 

Plus, I have really only been listening through the XLR inputs and 4.4 outputs on high impedance for my ZMFs and enjoy that so much likely won't be spending too much time via the RCA inputs and 6.5 headphone output for the foreseeable future.


----------



## linziyi (Jul 14, 2022)

wazzupi said:


> that could cause noise and It states that you shouldn't leave the amp on without a source connected. but you still didn't answer did you use XLR and the noise was still there ?


I connect  RCA to a rme adi2, will try xlr tomorrow when the cable arrive


----------



## linziyi

mfgillia said:


> Good question - In my setup I do have more noise out of the RCAs than the XLRs. I currently have both outputs from my DAC (Spring 3) going into the Cayin to test that out and switching back and forth can notice noise out of the RCA after I turn the volume past 2 o'clock. Its very minor but it is there.
> 
> Once the music plays though I can't hear it at all with the Atriums though more noticeable with the VCs out of the XLRs and 6.5.


This sounds like interference from RCA cable? Though in my case the hum is not dependent on volume, so it’s originated before the volume stage?


----------



## mfgillia (Jul 14, 2022)

linziyi said:


> This sounds like interference from RCA cable? Though in my case the hum is not dependent on volume, so it’s originated before the volume stage?


It's some slight hiss / noise and not hum from the transformers. If I hook up my VCs out of the XLR ouputs and set impedance to high then I can hear a slight noise floor that is unaffected by volume but not audible once music is playing.


----------



## linziyi

mfgillia said:


> It's some slight hiss / noise and not hum from the transformers. If I hook up my VCs out of the XLR ouputs and set impedance to high then I can hear a slight noise floor that is unaffected by volume but unaudible once music is playing.


If you are not connecting any source to the amp, do you still hear noise? what I hear is more like a buzz than a hum, at 120Hz


----------



## mfgillia (Jul 14, 2022)

linziyi said:


> If you are not connecting any source to the amp, do you still hear noise? what I hear is more like a buzz than a hum, at 120Hz


As discussed above its generally frown upon to run amps without sources. I'm not sure if this would actually damage the Cayin or not but don't have plans to test it.


----------



## Ysound

linziyi said:


> I just got a new unit. I am experiencing background noise at 120Hz. The noise doesn’t change when I turn the volume, even at 0 volume level, so I know it’s volume independent. It’s also present when no source/input is connected at all, so I think it’s source independent as well. I have hooked both hd800s (via 4 pin XLR) and hd650 (via 6.5mm) and can hear the noise on both headphones, both output, and all 3 impedance levels.
> 
> I’ve tried turning off all the circuit breakers in the house except for the one powering the amp, noise is still there. I’ve also tried the amp connected to different outlet in the house, as well as giving it its own power strip, and the noise is still present. There is also no router or modem near the amp.
> 
> ...


The first MK2 unit I received were exhibiting the same issue with with microphonics, slight tapping of the amp metal body would cause ringing in the headphone. I'm still somewhat new to tubes and didn't know that was an issue until reading your post.


----------



## wazzupi

Ysound said:


> The first MK2 unit I received were exhibiting the same issue with with microphonics, slight tapping of the amp metal body would cause ringing in the headphone. I'm still somewhat new to tubes and didn't know that was an issue until reading your post.


That’s a tube thing. Like the physical tube it’s self is the cause


----------



## Ake_Y

linziyi said:


> I just got a new unit. I am experiencing background noise at 120Hz. The noise doesn’t change when I turn the volume, even at 0 volume level, so I know it’s volume independent. It’s also present when no source/input is connected at all, so I think it’s source independent as well. I have hooked both hd800s (via 4 pin XLR) and hd650 (via 6.5mm) and can hear the noise on both headphones, both output, and all 3 impedance levels.
> 
> I’ve tried turning off all the circuit breakers in the house except for the one powering the amp, noise is still there. I’ve also tried the amp connected to different outlet in the house, as well as giving it its own power strip, and the noise is still present. There is also no router or modem near the amp.
> 
> ...


Do your power sockets connect to the grounding rod? You can test by touching the amp, while listening via headphone. If the noise volume increases, your power sockets do not connect to the grounding rod or has some issues related to it.


----------



## linziyi

Ake_Y said:


> Do your power sockets connect to the grounding rod? You can test by touching the amp, while listening via headphone. If the noise volume increases, your power sockets do not connect to the grounding rod or has some issues related to it.


Touching the amp doesn’t increase the volume of the noise. In fact the only thing affecting the volume of the noise is switching between different impedance level; higher the impedance louder the noise.


----------



## wazzupi

I think it’s related to source…


----------



## Ake_Y

wazzupi said:


> I think it’s related to source…


I think so.



linziyi said:


> Touching the amp doesn’t increase the volume of the noise. In fact the only thing affecting the volume of the noise is switching between different impedance level; higher the impedance louder the noise.


In that case, I agree with wazzupi. You may try swapping sources switch between XLR and RCA. I hope you may find the differences.


----------



## linziyi

Ok I hooked up to XLR out from my rme adi-2. Noise is still present, same 120Hz background noise. It’s pretty noticeable during the quieter part of the music


----------



## wazzupi

linziyi said:


> Ok I hooked up to XLR out from my rme adi-2. Noise is still present, same 120Hz background noise. It’s pretty noticeable during the quieter part of the music


Time to contact the dealer >.<


----------



## linziyi

Maybe I have too high an expectation? By “silent” do you guys mean absolutely no background noise at all? Or just not loud enough to hear it with music? I am using hd800s btw, so it’s high impedance, high sensitivity, maybe that’s why the background is a bit louder than what I expected?

Also what kind of power conditioner do you guys use? Will it improve the background if I go for a better one? I am using a Furman strip, others have recommended monster HTS as well


----------



## wazzupi

linziyi said:


> Maybe I have too high an expectation? By “silent” do you guys mean absolutely no background noise at all? Or just not loud enough to hear it with music? I am using hd800s btw, so it’s high impedance, high sensitivity, maybe that’s why the background is a bit louder than what I expected?
> 
> Also what kind of power conditioner do you guys use? Will it improve the background if I go for a better one? I am using a Furman strip, others have recommended monster HTS as well


i am using Furman Elite-15 PFI, and my Cayin HA-300B MK1 has 0 noise until you literally put the volume dial past 2-3 o clock and even then the noise is a slight haze which can't be heard during play, maybe because everything is ear piercing loud at that point.....


----------



## mfgillia

linziyi said:


> Maybe I have too high an expectation? By “silent” do you guys mean absolutely no background noise at all? Or just not loud enough to hear it with music? I am using hd800s btw, so it’s high impedance, high sensitivity, maybe that’s why the background is a bit louder than what I expected?
> 
> Also what kind of power conditioner do you guys use? Will it improve the background if I go for a better one? I am using a Furman strip, others have recommended monster HTS as well


I was wondering about this too. It takes some effort but with the VCs and a very quiet room I can hear a noise floor at high impedance more so when not using the 4.4 output. Believe the hd800s are more sensitive so may naturally be more receptive to tube noise.


----------



## ken6217

What is the recommended settings in the mk2 with the VC? I’m using balanced XLR in and 4 pin XLR out.


----------



## mfgillia (Jul 16, 2022)

ken6217 said:


> What is the recommended settings in the mk2 with the VC? I’m using balanced XLR in and 4 pin XLR out.


Recommend trying all the settings and see which you prefer. Personally though, I'm partial to balanced XLR input, 4.4 output and impedance set to high.

In his dcs Lina video, Zach thought the Cayin sounds better with ZMFs when the DAC outputs higher voltage, which I also approximate with the Spring 3 and sounds great to me too.


----------



## ken6217

mfgillia said:


> Recommend trying all the settings and see which you prefer. Personally though, I'm partial to balanced XLR input, 4.4 output and impedance set to high.
> 
> In his dcs Lina video, Zach thought the Cayin sounds better with ZMFs when the DAC outputs higher voltage, which I also approximate with the Spring 3 and sounds great to me too.


Thanks. My DAC is balanced and outputs 4V.


----------



## Andykong

linziyi said:


> I don’t have any headphone with 4.4 connector sorry, but both XLR and 6.5 has noise at all impedance level so I suspect the noise is not related to output selection.
> 
> I disconnected all input, so nothing is connected to the amp except for power. Noise is still there with nothing connected



One of the biggest differences between Solid-state and Vacuum tube amplifiers is that you must not listen to the tube amplifier with unconnected input. I described this as an “Open-loop” condition. I have shared my understanding of this subject previously (*HERE*), maybe you can check this out if you are in doubt.



linziyi said:


> I connect  RCA to a rme adi2, will try xlr tomorrow when the cable arrive



You had spent considerable effort describing the "environment" of your HA-300MK2 operation, but I couldn't find any detail regarding your sound system, can you describe your system in detail so that we can offer some practical suggestions to debug or resolve the noise problem.  Please start with your source (PC? streamer? CD player), the digital connection from the source to DAC, and then works the way to the headphones connections.  Tell us the equipment you used and the cable/interconnect between each piece of equipment. 

Sometimes the noise comes from places where we are totally unexpected.  From what I recall, we have users find out that the noise is related to the backlight of the keyboard of their computer, once he turn off the backlight, the noise disappeared immediately. Another user said the noise of his system is coming from the GUI of his computer, when the GUI speed goes up, the noise starts to appear.  Last but not least, dimmer of the lighting in your room can be an unexpected problem.    I am not trying to discourage you or saying that the noise problem is definitely not an amplifier hardware issue, we don't know at this stage.


----------



## linziyi

Andykong said:


> One of the biggest differences between Solid-state and Vacuum tube amplifiers is that you must not listen to the tube amplifier with unconnected input. I described this as an “Open-loop” condition. I have shared my understanding of this subject previously (*HERE*), maybe you can check this out if you are in doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I apologise for not mentioning my setup! I use: PC, Mac, or iPad -> USB cable -> RME ADI-2 -> XLR -> HA-300a -> XLR for HD800s, 6.35mm for HD650

I have tried connecting to a MacBook pro, a Lenovo laptop, and an iPad, all with and without their charging cable attached. Modem and router is in another room, and on another circuit breaker. I’ve tried to connect the entire setup in different parts of the house, and also tested with all other circuit breakers in the house turned off except for the one powering the amp. The noise is the same 120Hz hum for all of these scenarios.

In your experience, is the HD800s ever really “silent” when connected to the XLR output, with the impedance switch turned to “high”? I have read a lot of feedback on this thread saying the amp is “silent”, is it really without any background noise, or just quiet compared to other amps?

The loudness of the background noise is not noticeable during loud music, but during quieter passages it can definitely intrude into the music. For chamber music, the noise interferes with the music up to 5,6 clicks of the volume knob the 0 position for the HD800s

Here is a recording of the noise that I took by putting my phone close to the ear cup of the headphone: https://voca.ro/1et7cYEA6XAP


----------



## wazzupi

linziyi said:


> I apologise for not mentioning my setup! I use: PC, Mac, or iPad -> USB cable -> RME ADI-2 -> XLR -> HA-300a -> XLR for HD800s, 6.35mm for HD650
> 
> I have tried connecting to a MacBook pro, a Lenovo laptop, and an iPad, all with and without their charging cable attached. Modem and router is in another room, and on another circuit breaker. I’ve tried to connect the entire setup in different parts of the house, and also tested with all other circuit breakers in the house turned off except for the one powering the amp. The noise is the same 120Hz hum for all of these scenarios.
> 
> ...


Idk that sounds like grounding doesn’t mean it is though.


----------



## linziyi

I’ve made new discovery. I now believe the noise comes from the outboard power supply. When I put my ear close to the power supply, I can hear the same 120 Hz hum near the base of the rectifier tubes, and a similar whine if I put my ear to the transformer. What does this mean?


----------



## Erwinatm

linziyi said:


> Maybe I have too high an expectation? By “silent” do you guys mean absolutely no background noise at all? Or just not loud enough to hear it with music? I am using hd800s btw, so it’s high impedance, high sensitivity, maybe that’s why the background is a bit louder than what I expected?
> 
> Also what kind of power conditioner do you guys use? Will it improve the background if I go for a better one? I am using a Furman strip, others have recommended monster HTS as well


I use Isotek Evo3 Aquarius.

I still can hear a little  hum with ZMFs at Med/high gain. But it doesnt disturb the music passage and don't bother me. 

Tube amps will always have noise, inevitable. If you want a dead silence amp, use SS. Definitely very quiet. 

However, If you feel there is something wrong with your amp, you better bring it to the dealer and compare it with another HA300.


----------



## wazzupi

linziyi said:


> I’ve made new discovery. I now believe the noise comes from the outboard power supply. When I put my ear close to the power supply, I can hear the same 120 Hz hum near the base of the rectifier tubes, and a similar whine if I put my ear to the transformer. What does this mean?


I would try to reseat the tubes and you could change the orientation of the tubes just to see if anything changes.


----------



## ARCXENOS

linziyi said:


> I have read a lot of feedback on this thread saying the amp is “silent”, is it really without any background noise, or just quiet compared to other amps?


I believe this specifically will depend on a system to system basis. In my case, my HE1000v2 and Susvara is pretty much silent, pitch black, no hum with no music playing, it definitely depends on headphone sensitivity.



linziyi said:


> I’ve made new discovery. I now believe the noise comes from the outboard power supply. When I put my ear close to the power supply, I can hear the same 120 Hz hum near the base of the rectifier tubes, and a similar whine if I put my ear to the transformer. What does this mean?


Tried it out on my unit, no power supply hum is audible to me, maybe someone else can verify with their unit too



Erwinatm said:


> However, If you feel there is something wrong with your amp, you better bring it to the dealer and compare it with another HA300.


I think this might be the best course of action if reseating the tubes didn't help, I did read that dirty contacts / loose connections could possibly be an issue, but its a new amp...


----------



## linziyi

wazzupi said:


> I would try to reseat the tubes and you could change the orientation of the tubes just to see if anything changes.


I did take all the tubes out and reseat them, no change.


----------



## wazzupi

linziyi said:


> I did take all the tubes out and reseat them, no change.


Hmm but at least, it seems you’ve pinpointed the problem. Now what’s next might have be on @Andykong and or the Cayin support to decide.


----------



## Andykong

linziyi said:


> I’ve made new discovery. I now believe the noise comes from the outboard power supply. When I put my ear close to the power supply, I can hear the same 120 Hz hum near the base of the rectifier tubes, and a similar whine if I put my ear to the transformer. What does this mean?


If you are hearing 120Hz Hum at the power supply, that can be caused by a 60Hz ground hum.  Your PC ground is connected to the amplifier through the USB, and your DAC might cause a ground loop with the HA-300MK2, though this is very unlikely based on my previous experience with RME ADI-2.

Do you have a CD player or portable analog source that can fit an RCA lineout signal to HA-300MK2 directly? I am trying to find a way to remove the USB source from your system temporarily.  If this can reduce the 120Hz hum significantly, then you probably need to add an isolator or USB signal cleaner to enhance the digital source.


----------



## Andykong

wazzupi said:


> Hmm but at least, it seems you’ve pinpointed the problem. Now what’s next might have be on @Andykong and or the Cayin support to decide.


Actually, the local dealer should be the first point of contact when a user runs into a similar problem, instead of waiting for one individual to become the bottleneck of the global service support, helping users at different time zones.


----------



## wazzupi

Andykong said:


> Actually, the local dealer should be the first point of contact when a user runs into a similar problem, instead of waiting for one individual to become the bottleneck of the global service support, helping users at different time zones.


Thank you for clarifying


----------



## linziyi

Andykong said:


> If you are hearing 120Hz Hum at the power supply, that can be caused by a 60Hz ground hum.  Your PC ground is connected to the amplifier through the USB, and your DAC might cause a ground loop with the HA-300MK2, though this is very unlikely based on my previous experience with RME ADI-2.
> 
> Do you have a CD player or portable analog source that can fit an RCA lineout signal to HA-300MK2 directly? I am trying to find a way to remove the USB source from your system temporarily.  If this can reduce the 120Hz hum significantly, then you probably need to add an isolator or USB signal cleaner to enhance the digital source.


Unfortunately no I don’t have any source that doesn’t go through USB. Will a better power conditioner/filter resolve the issue? I am only using a relatively cheap power filter from Furman.


----------



## Erwinatm

linziyi said:


> Unfortunately no I don’t have any source that doesn’t go through USB. Will a better power conditioner/filter resolve the issue? I am only using a relatively cheap power filter from Furman.


From my experience power conditioner won't help significantly ground loop problem. You need to float 1 or 2 components grounding in the chain. 

Nevertheless, If you live in apartment/condo which share same power grid among tenants, noise can also come from electric motor (water pump, hair dryer, mixer etc) your neighbour use.

Just my 2 cents😉


----------



## linziyi

Erwinatm said:


> From my experience power conditioner won't help significantly ground loop problem. You need to float 1 or 2 components grounding in the chain.
> 
> Nevertheless, If you live in apartment/condo which share same power grid among tenants, noise can also come from electric motor (water pump, hair dryer, mixer etc) your neighbour use.
> 
> Just my 2 cents😉


The DAC is already only using 2-prong, iPad and laptop runs off its own electricity. I am in a house and have tired turning off all the breakers except for the one powering the amp.

US outlet is 120V 60 Hz, and from my understanding a rectifier doubles the frequency. So if I am hearing 120 Hz, it is from the electric outlet after all??


----------



## Erwinatm

linziyi said:


> The DAC is already only using 2-prong, iPad and laptop runs off its own electricity. I am in a house and have tired turning off all the breakers except for the one powering the amp.
> 
> US outlet is 120V 60 Hz, and from my understanding a rectifier doubles the frequency. So if I am hearing 120 Hz, it is from the electric outlet after all??


I had same problem with you when I was still playing with turntables years ago.  It even worse because the noise/hum also appear with SS amps. Tried every possible things and it was still there.

I end up solving it by making another power line, dedicated & independent  from households. New grounding new line.

I am not suggesting you do that unless you are sure grounding is your problem. However, bring it to your dealer and make sure the amp is good and normal.

PS : Now there is ground blocker device that might help. Can't guarantee, I  never try it before.


----------



## ken6217

So I just got my Mk2. I used to have the Mk1 a while ago. It is gorgeous in black. 

In the couple of hours that I have it turned on, this is my rating between the two.

Mk2 has it over the Mk1 in looks.
Mk2 have it WAY Over the mk1 in hum through the headphones.

I'm so freakin happy that I got an amp that hums, and evidently its baked in as I'm not the only one. I'm speechless.


----------



## wazzupi

ken6217 said:


> So I just got my Mk2. I used to have the Mk1 a while ago. It is gorgeous in black.
> 
> In the couple of hours that I have it turned on, this is my rating between the two.
> 
> ...


I’m confused are you saying the mk2 has humming ?!?


----------



## ken6217

wazzupi said:


> I’m confused are you saying the mk2 has humming ?!?


Yes. Through the headphones. 

I thought Inhad read a week or so ago about somebody having a similar issue with the HD 820 I think. Andy supposedly said that and they never tested it with that headphone. 

So they didn’t test it with Sennheiser and I guess ZMF. That’s a pretty big size of the 300 ohm market.


----------



## Erwinatm

ken6217 said:


> Yes. Through the headphones.
> 
> I thought Inhad read a week or so ago about somebody having a similar issue with the HD 820 I think. Andy supposedly said that and they never tested it with that headphone.
> 
> So they didn’t test it with Sennheiser and I guess ZMF. That’s a pretty big size of the 300 ohm market.


In my case, humming with ZMFs VC & Atrium. Louder with VC.

Not audible with HD650, LCD5 and Empyrean.


----------



## ken6217

Erwinatm said:


> In my case, humming with ZMFs VC & Atrium. Louder with VC.
> 
> Not audible with HD650, LCD5 and Empyrean.



They should add a blurb on the Cayin website that says there is an audible hum using the following headphones………..

Do you hear it all once the music is playing ?


----------



## linziyi

ken6217 said:


> They should add a blurb on the Cayin website that says there is an audible hum using the following headphones………..
> 
> Do you hear it all once the music is playing ?


I experience humming through HD800s and HD650 as well. Quieter music definitely can hear the hum, louder music not so. Still trying to work the issue out


----------



## ken6217

I wonder if this happened with the mk1. I had Abyss 1266 TC and had no hum. It was 48 ohms however.


----------



## Erwinatm

ken6217 said:


> They should add a blurb on the Cayin website that says there is an audible hum using the following headphones………..
> 
> Do you hear it all once the music is playing ?


I can hear it once plugged in. When musics play, I am drifted. My mind is on the music not the hum 😉.

Besides, it is still normal and tolerable.


----------



## ken6217

I haven’t spent any real time with it yet to determine if I hear it while playing. I have a feeling I won’t, but it’s the principle.


----------



## lumdicks (Jul 18, 2022)

I have not been using HA-300 MKI or MKII but have once been suffered from humming on Fostex HP-V8 through my more sensitive headphones such as Stellia and Empyrean. I have resolved it completely with iFi GND Defender and it is now dead silent with all of my headphones. Worth trying given its relative low cost and simplicity to use.


----------



## wazzupi

My mk1 has 0 hum  unless you have the volume knob past 2 o clock.


----------



## ken6217

lumdicks said:


> I have not been using HA-300 MKI or MKII but have once been suffered from humming on Fostex HP-V8 through my more sensitive headphones such as Stellia and Empyrean. I have resolved it completely with iFi GND Defender and it is now dead silent with all of my headphones. Worth trying given its relative low cost and simplicity to use.


I don't think it is a ground hum if it only happens with certain headphones. I would assume it would present itself with all heaphones.


----------



## ken6217

Did someone say that it is less prevalent using a 4.4mm termination than XLR?


----------



## Erwinatm (Jul 18, 2022)

ken6217 said:


> Did someone say that it is less prevalent using a 4.4mm termination than XLR?


Yes. It is intended for iem.

Using XLR input instead of RCA will lower it as well.


----------



## ken6217

I'm using XLR. I have a 4.4mm as well.


----------



## lumdicks

ken6217 said:


> I don't think it is a ground hum if it only happens with certain headphones. I would assume it would present itself with all heaphones.


I think it does exist for all headphones in reality but not noticeable for less sensitive cans such as Susvara and Steath.


----------



## ken6217 (Jul 18, 2022)

lumdicks said:


> I think it does exist for all headphones in reality but not noticeable for less sensitive cans such as Susvara and Steath.


That's possible. I thought of that after I typed that.

Cayin should point out that the amp is not quiet when using sensitive headphones. What makes it worse, when we sell the amp, we have to be forthcoming unlike Cayin. The hum has to be pointed out when listing it as the buyer is going to complain when they receive it. Then it comes back and PayPal will back the buyer.

I don't hear it with the music, but it is very annoying between switching songs. I don't know if I can live with it.


----------



## ken6217

Anybody try the headphones out of the speaker taps? I wonder if this resolves the issue?


----------



## lumdicks

ken6217 said:


> That's possible. I thought of that after I typed that.
> 
> Cayin should point out that the amp is not quiet when using sensitive headphones. What makes it worse, when we sell the amp, we have to be forthcoming unlike Cayin. The hum has to be pointed out when listing it as the buyer is going to complain when they receive it. Then it comes back and PayPal will back the buyer.
> 
> I don't hear it with the music, but it is very annoying between switching songs. I don't know if I can live with it.


As said, if you like the sound of the Cayin, I think worth trying with the GND Defender of which I solved my problem completely.


----------



## ken6217

lumdicks said:


> As said, if you like the sound of the Cayin, I think worth trying with the GND Defender of which I solved my problem completely.


I may give it a shot once the pissed off wears off. It's not my job to fix their problem on a $4400.00 amp.


----------



## Sampajanna

ken6217 said:


> I may give it a shot once the pissed off wears off. It's not my job to fix their problem on a $4400.00 amp.


Cayin HA-300 sound is awesome, especially with Utopia. But there are definitely QC issues and the customer service is awful. Be prepared for an ordeal if there is an issue with your unit…


----------



## mfgillia (Jul 18, 2022)

wazzupi said:


> My mk1 has 0 hum  unless you have the volume knob past 2 o clock.


Sorry to hear some new owners are having problems. Fortunately... (knocking on wood three times to keep the noise goblins away), mine has had no hum regardless of the volume settings with all my headphones and IEMs.

With my VCs though and the music paused in a quiet room, there is a slight noise floor (i.e., hiss) that can be heard more easily on high impedance when not using the 4.4 output. A few other owners on Goldensound's Discourse report similar experiences as mine.

I recall the Ampsandsound threads had number of suggestions for eliminating hum and ground loops. That iFi GND Defender seemed popular over there so might be worth checking out.


----------



## wazzupi (Jul 18, 2022)

I’ll sell someone my 0 hum cayin HA-300b mk 1 

Ps only selling cuz I moved mostly towards iems I’d love to keep the amp but I want a totl dap  I was maybe interested in buying the mark 2 in the future to use my iems with also….


----------



## SteveM324

Erwinatm said:


> I can hear it once plugged in. When musics play, I am drifted. My mind is on the music not the hum 😉.
> 
> Besides, it is still normal and tolerable.


Humming noise normal on a tube amp .... I don't think so.  My Auris Nirvana is dead silent with my high sensitivity ZMF Verite Open and Focal Utopia as well as my low sensitivity Susvara and 1266TC.   I was interested in getting a 300B amp and this one was on my radar.  I don't want any part of an amp with humming noise so this one is no longer on my short list.  I may watch to see if Cayin does something to fix this issue but I'm not holding my breath.   I think it's a ground issue or a bad transformer causing the noise.  If Cayin says the noise is normal, then it's not a good amp design.  I've had many tube amps and none of them hummed.  Since several owners have reported the humming noise, I don't think the noise is in the main power line so the noise is definitely an amp problem.


----------



## wazzupi

mfgillia said:


> Sorry to hear some new owners are having problems. Fortunately... (knocking on wood three times to keep the noise goblins away), mine has had no hum regardless of the volume settings with all my headphones and IEMs.
> 
> With my VCs though and the music paused in a quiet room, there is a slight noise floor (i.e., hiss) that can be heard more easily on high impedance when not using the 4.4 output. A few other owners on Goldensound's Discourse report similar experiences as mine.
> 
> I recall the Ampsandsound threads had number of suggestions for eliminating hum and ground loops. That iFI GND Defender seemed popular over there so might be worth checking out.


I think that’s what Mine does past 2 o clock you can hear the noise floor.


----------



## wazzupi (Jul 18, 2022)

SteveM324 said:


> Humming noise normal on a tube amp .... I don't think so.  My Auris Nirvana is dead silent with my high sensitivity ZMF Verite Open and Focal Utopia as well as my low sensitivity Susvara and 1266TC.   I was interested in getting a 300B amp and this one was on my radar.  I don't want any part of an amp with humming noise so this one is no longer on my short list.  I may watch to see if Cayin does something to fix this issue but I'm not holding my breath.   I think it's a ground issue or a bad transformer causing the noise.  If Cayin says the noise is normal, then it's not a good amp design.  I've had many tube amps and none of them hummed.  Since several owners have reported the humming noise, I don't think the noise is in the main power line so the noise is definitely an amp problem.


The mark 1 doesn’t hum it’s dead silent. everyone here has described ground noise from my understanding(mark2)unless they do have a QC issue going on which is unfortunately a possible reality for anything….

Ps I don’t count noise floor at 3 o clock++ because I can’t ever listen to music at those volumes even if I wanted to and I listen to music close to 90 decibels… I’ve had hd800/rognir/lcd5/d8000pro/ATH-EWKT/UM MEST Indigo/liric/emp elite/HE-6/eJ07m kinda lava through my amp.


----------



## ken6217

wazzupi said:


> I think that’s what Mine does past 2 o clock you can hear the noise floor.


Mine is super loud at 10 o’clock and I listen really loud.


----------



## ken6217

I think my amp is going bye-bye. I have no inclination to fix a problem that’s inherent in the amp.


----------



## SteveM324

ken6217 said:


> I think my amp is going bye-bye. I have no inclination to fix a problem that’s inherent in the amp.


I would probably return it too.  If you were to try something, this might help:  https://emotiva.com/collections/accessories/products/cmx-2


----------



## wazzupi (Jul 18, 2022)

SteveM324 said:


> Humming noise normal on a tube amp .... I don't think so.  My Auris Nirvana is dead silent with my high sensitivity ZMF Verite Open and Focal Utopia as well as my low sensitivity Susvara and 1266TC.   I was interested in getting a 300B amp and this one was on my radar.  I don't want any part of an amp with humming noise so this one is no longer on my short list.  I may watch to see if Cayin does something to fix this issue but I'm not holding my breath.   I think it's a ground issue or a bad transformer causing the noise.  If Cayin says the noise is normal, then it's not a good amp design.  I've had many tube amps and none of them hummed.  Since several owners have reported the humming noise, I don't think the noise is in the main power line so the noise is definitely an amp problem.


So you base this on a amp that cost 1.5k more ? Not that it has really anything to do with it…. But I’ve owned over 5 tubes amps ranging from 600-5k and I’d say about 3 of them had some sort of noise issue somewhere…. It happens tubes are just more susceptible to it….


ken6217 said:


> I think my amp is going bye-bye. I have no inclination to fix a problem that’s inherent in the amp.


Have you ever owned a tube amp ? Might want to spend more money or stick to SS  just to be safe.

You could try OTL route for high impedance hps only.


----------



## SteveM324

ken6217 said:


> I think my amp is going bye-bye. I have no inclination to fix a problem that’s inherent in the
> 
> 
> wazzupi said:
> ...


----------



## wazzupi

Umm I can’t reply to you for some reason… but no it isn’t acceptable but it is real for tubes… many have to find the cause to find the solution… and a lot of times it isn’t the amp.


----------



## SteveM324 (Jul 19, 2022)

wazzupi said:


> Umm I can’t reply to you for some reason… but no it isn’t acceptable but it is real for tubes… many have to find the cause to find the solution… and a lot of times it isn’t the amp.


Ok, we agree it's not acceptable.  When you say it's real for tubes, yes and no.  I've had tube components for the last 30 years in my system.  I've had tube preamps, tube power amps and tube phono stages as well as tube headphone amps.  Yes, sometimes you get a brand new tube that is noisy, that happens.  It's also an easy fix, replace the tubes until you get quiet ones. Humming noise is a different story.

Humming noise isn't as easy to fix and I don't think that you should have to buy a humbuster to fix the issue.  Humming noise isn't just a tube amp issue, I've had large solid state amps that hummed that I could only fix by lifting the ground using a cheater plug (not a desirable solution and not one that I would recommend to anyone but it worked for me and I was willing to take the risk).   Tube amps are very susceptible to noise from nearby wifi routers and boosters but that noise is a repeating ticking noise.  Tube amps should be as far away from a routers/boosters as possible.  Moving the power supply as far away from the amp as the power cable will allow is another good thing to try to eliminate noise.

Although I have no skin in this game, I think Cayin needs to step up and find a solution since multiple customers are having the same issue.  Otherwise, Cayin needs to state that humming noise may be heard with high sensitivity headphones in their product description.


----------



## Erwinatm (Jul 19, 2022)

SteveM324 said:


> Humming noise normal on a tube amp .... I don't think so.  My Auris Nirvana is dead silent with my high sensitivity ZMF Verite Open and Focal Utopia as well as my low sensitivity Susvara and 1266TC.   I was interested in getting a 300B amp and this one was on my radar.  I don't want any part of an amp with humming noise so this one is no longer on my short list.  I may watch to see if Cayin does something to fix this issue but I'm not holding my breath.   I think it's a ground issue or a bad transformer causing the noise.  If Cayin says the noise is normal, then it's not a good amp design.  I've had many tube amps and none of them hummed.  Since several owners have reported the humming noise, I don't think the noise is in the main power line so the noise is definitely an amp problem.


Hi Steve324, I also have been playing with tube amps for 30 years. Can you name one brand 300B Class A SET without hum connecting it with 100db loudspeaker?

I am curious also...not to challenge you my friend.

Edit :
Just saw Auris Nirvana specs,  It uses EL34 tubes which are not direct heated tubes (DHT), no wonder it has very low noise.  For DHT tubes like 300B, Class A linear powered, it's almost impossible that you can eliminate noise/hum without sacrificing sound quality. CMIIW.

Cheers


----------



## justanut

SteveM324 said:


> Although I have no skin in this game, I think Cayin needs to step up and find a solution since multiple customers are having the same issue.  Otherwise, Cayin needs to state that humming noise may be heard with high sensitivity headphones in their product description.


The same could be said of those sensitive headphones.. should their manufacturers also state that they may hear humming with some amplifiers?

I think it is up to the responsibility of potential buyers to try equipment out before purchasing. Receiving a dud is another matter of course. We've been in this game long enough to know matching of audio gear is part of the process.


----------



## linziyi

From my understanding Cayin used HD800 and HD800s as part of their reference headphone when developing the amp, shouldn’t they be able to mitigate the background hum from these headphone? That’s why I am particularly surprised by the background hum given I am using one of their development headphones.


----------



## ken6217

wazzupi said:


> So you base this on a amp that cost 1.5k more ? Not that it has really anything to do with it…. But I’ve owned over 5 tubes amps ranging from 600-5k and I’d say about 3 of them had some sort of noise issue somewhere…. It happens tubes are just more susceptible to it….
> 
> Have you ever owned a tube amp ? Might want to spend more money or stick to SS  just to be safe.
> 
> You could try OTL route for high impedance hps only.


I've owned the HA-300 Mk1 twice over the last few years, Audio Research REF 75SE, Audio Research REF 160, Primalina 400, and Ikon Audio HP8. They all had one thing in common, they didn't hum. I did hear a slight external hum coming from the transformers, but never through the headphones.

I'm not going to blindly experiment with different tube amps. If I decide to part with it, I'll just use my Violectric V281 which I've had for years.


----------



## SteveM324 (Jul 19, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Hi Steve324, I also have been playing with tube amps for 30 years. Can you name one brand 300B Class A SET without hum connecting it with 100db loudspeaker?
> 
> I am curious also...not to challenge you my friend.
> 
> ...


I heard the Cayin HA-300 Mk1 at Axpona about 5 years ago with Utopia headphones and I don't recall hearing any hum.   I'm interested in a 300B amp that is good for headphones and speakers, not just one or the other.  My Auris Nirvana is a great EL34 SET headphone amp but it doesn't have speaker outputs.   I have high sensitivity speakers, Klipsch Cornwall IV, that I'm currently driving with my Enleum 23R and it sounds great.  I would like to find a complementary tube amp that drives speakers and headphones.

The audiophile in me has me curious what a good 300B amp would do with my speakers.  My friend brought over a cheap 300B speaker amp made in China, BoyuuRange A50 Mk3, for me to try on the CW IV.  It had a lot of air and nice midrange but it sounded much too soft and not very dynamic.  It also didn't have any headphone outputs.  I recall that it did make a very slight hum at the amp and I don't recall if any noise came out of the speakers (maybe a slight hiss, but it was over 7 months ago so I don't recall all the details).  My expectations for speakers is that a 300B amp may produce a slight hiss with no music playing but not a humming noise.  For headphones, humming noise is not acceptable to me.  If my expectations are not realistic, then I'll cross out 300B amp from my list.  Based on all the amps that I've tried with my speakers and headphones, I like the Enleum 23R the best.  So far, I've tried a McIntosh MC275 VI, a Rogue Stereo 100 with Dark upgrades, BoyuuRange A50mk3, an Audio By Van Alstine 600R hybrid amp and my 23R.

I may consider EL84 amps like one of the Decware amps instead of a 300B amp.


----------



## paradoxper (Jul 19, 2022)

justanut said:


> The same could be said of those sensitive headphones.. should their manufacturers also state that they may hear humming with some amplifiers?
> 
> I think it is up to the responsibility of potential buyers to try equipment out before purchasing. Receiving a dud is another matter of course. We've been in this game long enough to know matching of audio gear is part of the process.


No because competently designed amplifiers within sufficient parameters should not induce noise.

It's incumbent of the enthusiast to understand the context of operation. impedance matching, single ended topology, tubes especially DHT are inherently noisy, etc.
Whatever 2 o'clock means is important contextually. If you listen at 100dB nominal 120 peak, you are deaf, and are at the extreme threshold for noise.

If you're listening at 70dB nominal 85 peak, and noise is present, that is intrusive and a fault lies somewhere.


----------



## Erwinatm (Jul 19, 2022)

SteveM324 said:


> I heard the Cayin HA-300 Mk1 at Axpona about 5 years ago with Utopia headphones and I don't recall hearing any hum.   I'm interested in a 300B amp that is good for headphones and speakers, not just one or the other.  My Auris Nirvana is a great EL34 SET headphone amp but it doesn't have speaker outputs.   I have high sensitivity speakers, Klipsch Cornwall IV, that I'm currently driving with my Enleum 23R and it sounds great.  I would like to find a complementary tube amp that drives speakers and headphones.
> 
> The audiophile in me has me curious what a good 300B amp would do with my speakers.  My friend brought over a cheap 300B speaker amp made in China, BoyuuRange A50 Mk3, for me to try on the CW IV.  It had a lot of air and nice midrange but it sounded much too soft and not very dynamic.  It also didn't have any headphone outputs.  I recall that it did make a very slight hum at the amp and I don't recall if any noise came out of the speakers (maybe a slight hiss, but it was over 7 months ago so I don't recall all the details).  My expectations for speakers is that a 300B amp may produce a slight hiss with no music playing but not a humming noise.  For headphones, humming noise is not acceptable to me.  If my expectations are not realistic, then I'll cross out 300B amp from my list.  Based on all the amps that I've tried with my speakers and headphones, I like the Enleum 23R the best.  So far, I've tried a McIntosh MC275 VI, a Rogue Stereo 100 with Dark upgrades, BoyuuRange A50mk3, an Audio By Van Alstine 600R hybrid amp and my 23R.
> 
> I may consider EL84 amps like one of the Decware amps instead of a 300B amp.


You live in US right? Try to find 2nd hand,  AirTight ATM300, discontinued now. Might serve your Klipsch well. Unfortunately no headphone out.

http://www.airtight-anm.com/components/atm300.html

https://www.stereophile.com/content/air-tight-atm-300r-power-amplifier

It's very quiet, more quiet than Cary or cheaper Audio Note 300B.

Sorry guys, out of Cayin topic.


----------



## llamaluv

BTW, on this hum issue, do we feel confident in assuming this has nothing to do with "DC offset"? Just curious.


----------



## helljudgement

Erwinatm said:


> Just saw Auris Nirvana specs, It uses EL34 tubes which are not direct heated tubes (DHT), no wonder it has very low noise. For DHT tubes like 300B, Class A linear powered, it's almost impossible that you can eliminate noise/hum without sacrificing sound quality. CMIIW.


My 2c. I've tried quite a few headphone amps over the years. These are the ones I owned/tested more than once.

DNA Stratus
DNA Starlett
WA2
WA5
WA6SE
HA300 mki
EC Studio B
Schiit Vali
All amps are tested with hd800. ZMF Verite and a few planars are also used on some of these amps. The ones that exhibit noticeable noise are the Cayin and Vali. 

I've tried two different HA300, both in show conditions, one quite a bit quieter the other exhibit a very noticeable amount of noise regardless of output impedance. Noise dropped significantly when using planar. The EC, DNA and Woo amps are dead silent regardless of gain and these are DHT.


----------



## Palyodgree

This time last year I had placed an order for one of Steve’s Dekerts Decware 300-B headphone amplifiers fully aware of the 12 month plus wait time , Two months into inline waiting a Cayin 300-B came up for sale used locally i was curious about . Waiting another 10 months I finally realized I couldn’t handle it so I popped over for a listen. He used the Cayin dual purpose as a headphone and speaker amplifier driving a pair of Klipsh RF-7 speakers . He also had a David Berning 1watt per channel amplifier I preferred driving those Klipsh speakers.

Headphones that he had on hand Sennhiser 600 , Foxtex 900 and Focal Utopia all three performered well none revealed any buzz or noise at all though using the Klipsh speakers a normal hiss was noticable at low to moderate gain with no music playing expected with such high efficiency .

Noise issue‘s today are so much more prevalent then decades ago , every wire and cable is an antenna, WiFi , RF the environment is saruated with it not to mention substandard building and home electrical issues like ground loops .

Hopefully the few here having issues with their Cayin 300-Bs can resolve them , it is a very good amplifier.


----------



## mfgillia (Jul 19, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Edit :
> Just saw Auris Nirvana specs,  It uses EL34 tubes which are not direct heated tubes (DHT), no wonder it has very low noise.  For DHT tubes like 300B, Class A linear powered, it's almost impossible that you can eliminate noise/hum without sacrificing sound quality. CMIIW.
> 
> Cheers


Just did a quick scan of the Auris Nirvana thread and did note some owners reported issues with noise and hum so I tend to think its not a 300B versus EL34 issue.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/auris-nirvana-el34-amp-in-the-house.887621/page-4

From reading these threads over the years, it appears every popular tube amplifier produced commercially has had noise and hum issues plaguing at least some of their customers. I spent a great deal of time recently researching Ampsandsound products coming close to buying a Bigger Ben. Ultimately though, I decided against it primarily due to number of complaints related to noise and hum issues.

I did end up going with the Cayin HA-300 MKII after talking with Zach at ZMF and other happy owners who have had very positive experiences with their first and second generation HA-300s. Unfortunately, there does seem to be a certain amount of luck involved in buying a quality tube amplifier that will work well in one's home without suffering through excessive noise issues.


----------



## linziyi

llamaluv said:


> BTW, on this hum issue, do we feel confident in assuming this has nothing to do with "DC offset"? Just curious.


What is the DC offset and how do I test it?


----------



## ken6217

justanut said:


> The same could be said of those sensitive headphones.. should their manufacturers also state that they may hear humming with some amplifiers?
> 
> *I think it is up to the responsibility of potential buyers to try equipment out before purchasing*. Receiving a dud is another matter of course. We've been in this game long enough to know matching of audio gear is part of the process.


Come on. We're living in the real world. Tell me how most, if not all people are able to listen to equipment beforehand?  Maybe if you're lucky enough to have a friend that has the component. the vast majority of components are purchased online through dealers.

It is incumbent upon the manufacturers to point out that sensitive headphones will hear a hum. And no, it is not normal for this to happen. I can buy hearing a hum externally from a transformer.


----------



## ken6217

I just tried my old Aeon Open @13 ohms. Dead quiet. I also swapped out my XLR cable for a 4.4mm headphone cable and there is still the hum. Not quite as loud, but still very evident.


----------



## helljudgement

justanut said:


> I think it is up to the responsibility of potential buyers to try equipment out before purchasing. Receiving a dud is another matter of course. We've been in this game long enough to know matching of audio gear is part of the process.


Unfortunately that is often not up to us. Unless you're in a location where there's a lot of audio shop or know a hobbyist who have the specific gear you're interested in, chances are you're going in blind. In an ideal world for audio, everything we ever wanted will be there for us to trial to our heart's content but that's not how the the real world works.


----------



## justanut (Jul 19, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> No because competently designed amplifiers within sufficient parameters should not induce noise.
> 
> It's incumbent of the enthusiast to understand the context of operation. impedance matching, single ended topology, tubes especially DHT are inherently noisy, etc.
> Whatever 2 o'clock means is important contextually. If you listen at 100dB nominal 120 peak, you are deaf, and are at the extreme threshold for noise.
> ...


Agreed. You explain it better.


ken6217 said:


> Come on. We're living in the real world. Tell me how most, if not all people are able to listen to equipment beforehand?  Maybe if you're lucky enough to have a friend that has the component. the vast majority of components are purchased online through dealers.
> 
> It is incumbent upon the manufacturers to point out that sensitive headphones will hear a hum. And no, it is not normal for this to happen. I can buy hearing a hum externally from a transformer.


Also agreed that this is not normal and there is no evidence to suggest this is a design / manufacturing issue. I think what other owners like myself with no issues are doing, is to try and help pinpoint the problem if possible as this is a very bulky item to be sending back to dealers or worse, to China!



helljudgement said:


> Unfortunately that is often not up to us. Unless you're in a location where there's a lot of audio shop or know a hobbyist who have the specific gear you're interested in, chances are you're going in blind. In an ideal world for audio, everything we ever wanted will be there for us to trial to our heart's content but that's not how the the real world works.


Yeah true as well.. just too used to Singapore with easy access. That's the risk with blind purchases, you've got to do so much research and keep fingers crossed.


----------



## Erwinatm

helljudgement said:


> My 2c. I've tried quite a few headphone amps over the years. These are the ones I owned/tested more than once.
> 
> DNA Stratus
> DNA Starlett
> ...


I never tried EC and DNA, didn't have a chance to hear it in my country. I have listened to Woo WA5 1st gen with standard tubes a few years ago. I remember I could hear a little hiss with Grado though. Yes, it is more quiet than the HA300.

TBH, I prefer HA300 than WA5. Faster pace, tighter bass IMO.


----------



## Erwinatm

linziyi said:


> What is the DC offset and how do I test it?


DC current entering speakers instead of AC. It could damage drivers.


----------



## Erwinatm

ken6217 said:


> Come on. We're living in the real world. Tell me how most, if not all people are able to listen to equipment beforehand?  Maybe if you're lucky enough to have a friend that has the component. the vast majority of components are purchased online through dealers.
> 
> It is incumbent upon the manufacturers to point out that sensitive headphones will hear a hum. And no, it is not normal for this to happen. I can buy hearing a hum externally from a transformer.


Hum coming out from transformer most likely caused by bad transformer or electricity. 

Again, for your case, I suggest you bring your amp to dealer or technician to be checked.


----------



## Palyodgree (Jul 19, 2022)

helljudgement said:


> Unfortunately that is often not up to us. Unless you're in a location where there's a lot of audio shop or know a hobbyist who have the specific gear you're interested in, chances are you're going in blind. In an ideal world for audio, everything we ever wanted will be there for us to trial to our heart's content but that's not how the the real world works.


Sure it’s not easy trying out components and wire before you buy , relying on chat forums and times over enthusiastic hype though some dealers are more then willing to lend components for home audition new and used floor models sent courier.
 I belong to a group of nine other enthusiasts we lend each other some of our stuff to try out . Though there is only two of us that use headphones we both have a speaker based system also. Just recently I was able to home trial several different dacs and was able to directly compare the ones I liked best with each other . Belonging to this group has helped me get off the Merry go round , post a comment on your local audio forum and form a group , it’s great , new friends , different systems , music , drinks , good smoke it’s all good ..


----------



## paradoxper (Jul 19, 2022)

llamaluv said:


> BTW, on this hum issue, do we feel confident in assuming this has nothing to do with "DC offset"? Just curious.


Highly unlikely. Due to the nature of their transformers, they provide many advantages. Rolling out the rectifiers to ensure non-defect would be prudent steps before resorting to sending the amp out for service.

To be clear, those whom don't understand the tube nature and variability, don't get it.
The context of operational behavior matters.

There should be no present hum with adaptive impedance during a normal course of playback.

Extra is simply extraneous. If you'd like to criticize the circuit and topology for not implementing a better noise rejection, regulation, this is fair ground, you damn better be able understand these functions of principle.

A. Swap tubes in process of elimination
B. Check sources and double check assertion of noise
C. Pinpoint origin of noise through impedance switching (Most likely)
D. Isolate noise and address ground faults. (Most likely)
E. If all fails, then bitch more, rightfully.

You and @ken6217 should meet up to trouble shoot. 
I feel Ken is too short tempered with complications due to compounding factors.


----------



## ken6217

paradoxper said:


> Highly unlikely. Due to the nature of their transformers, they provide many advantages. Rolling out the rectifiers to ensure non-defect would be prudent steps before resorting to sending the amp out for service.
> 
> To be clear, those whom don't understand the tube nature and variability, don't get it.
> The context of operational behavior matters.
> ...


Who me????  I’m always short tempered. I have this crazy little defect in my personality where when I spend money I expect what I paid for. 

Cory, btw I bought the VC African Blackwood. That’s the first home run I’ve hit in a long time. Absolutely incredible sounding. Definitely better than the lighter woods.


----------



## paradoxper

ken6217 said:


> Who me????  I’m always short tempered. I have this crazy little defect in my personality where when I spend money I expect what I paid for.
> 
> Cory, btw I bought the VC African Blackwood. That’s the first home run I’ve hit in a long time. Absolutely incredible sounding. Definitely better than the lighter woods.


Your defect is unique.

I'm waiting for you to dwell back into the Abyss. Glad you're happy with VC. Still one of my favorites. I like monkeypod the most. Drooling over the Macassar.

But it'd be lovely to have your amp running as functionally designed.


----------



## ken6217

paradoxper said:


> Your defect is unique.
> 
> I'm waiting for you to dwell back into the Abyss. Glad you're happy with VC. Still one of my favorites. I like monkeypod the most. Drooling over the Macassar.
> 
> But it'd be lovely to have your amp running as functionally designed.


The African Blackwood hits hard like the Abyss (obviously not the same). I didn’t find this the same as the Sapele. 

Well after having the Abyss two times, I’m now just in the Head Fi abyss. 

I’ll try a couple of suggestions that the dealer made, but I’m philosophically against that as I shouldn’t have to put a Band-Aid on a problem that’s inherent with a component.


----------



## paradoxper

ken6217 said:


> The African Blackwood hits hard like the Abyss (obviously not the same). I didn’t find this the same as the Sapele.
> 
> Well after having the Abyss two times, I’m now just in the Head Fi abyss.
> 
> I’ll try a couple of suggestions that the dealer made, but I’m philosophically against that as I shouldn’t have to put a Band-Aid on a problem that’s inherent with a component.


I can see the appeal for the harder woods. 

Don't blink, don't stare.

If you can establish a temporary solution, you can identify the origin. It's very possible you have, say, a defective transformer or failed regulation, it's also very possible you have a ground fault and power variability isn't so cut and dry.


----------



## ken6217

Well since there are others here with the same issue, I think it points to the amp. I never had this issue with any other tube amp. Also why would I hear it on the VC and not on a lower impedance ? Why would it be louder using XLR than using 4.4 mm? If the problem is external to the amp, then I should hear it all of the time with all headphones and connections.

With regards to the electrical side in my home. I ran 10 gauge Romex from the outlet to the panel and then a 20 amp breaker. The amp is the only item on the circuit. Every tube amp on this circuit has been dead quiet except for a slight hum externally from the transformers of the AR REF 75Se, which AR said was normal.


----------



## paradoxper

ken6217 said:


> Well since there are others here with the same issue, I think it points to the amp. I never had this issue with any other tube amp. Also why would I hear it on the VC and not on a lower impedance ? Why would it be louder using XLR than using 4.4 mm? If the problem is external to the amp, then I should hear it all of the time with all headphones and connections.
> 
> With regards to the electrical side in my home. I ran 10 gauge Romex from the outlet to the panel and then a 20 amp breaker. The amp is the only item on the circuit. Every tube amp on this circuit has been dead quiet except for a slight hum externally from the transformers of the AR REF 75Se, which AR said was normal.


I'm unsure about the other user's circumstance. 
You'd naturally pick up pollution more easily with the VC as it's the most sensitive. It's also why with Primavera, etc tube amps and former
1266 noise was not a consideration. At all.

It's easy enough to eliminate ground fault being cause and work back.


----------



## linziyi

ken6217 said:


> Well since there are others here with the same issue, I think it points to the amp. I never had this issue with any other tube amp. Also why would I hear it on the VC and not on a lower impedance ? Why would it be louder using XLR than using 4.4 mm? If the problem is external to the amp, then I should hear it all of the time with all headphones and connections.
> 
> With regards to the electrical side in my home. I ran 10 gauge Romex from the outlet to the panel and then a 20 amp breaker. The amp is the only item on the circuit. Every tube amp on this circuit has been dead quiet except for a slight hum externally from the transformers of the AR REF 75Se, which AR said was normal.


Is this similar to what you are hearing?

https://voca.ro/1et7cYEA6XAP

This was recorded from my headphone by putting the mic close to the earcup. It’s about 120Hz


----------



## linziyi

paradoxper said:


> I'm unsure about the other user's circumstance.
> You'd naturally pick up pollution more easily with the VC as it's the most sensitive. It's also why with Primavera, etc tube amps and former
> 1266 noise was not a consideration. At all.
> 
> It's easy enough to eliminate ground fault being cause and work back.


What would be an easy way to eliminate ground fault?


----------



## paradoxper

linziyi said:


> What would be an easy way to eliminate ground fault?


Any of the aforementioned isolators will work fine.


----------



## ken6217

linziyi said:


> Is this similar to what you are hearing?
> 
> https://voca.ro/1et7cYEA6XAP
> 
> This was recorded from my headphone by putting the mic close to the earcup. It’s about 120Hz


I can’t tell as it’s not loud enough.


----------



## ken6217

I ordered the IFI isolator and also a power strip that the dealer recommended me to try. It kind of pisses me off using a power strip as I do not like them nor do I like power conditioners.


----------



## linziyi

ken6217 said:


> I ordered the IFI isolator and also a power strip that the dealer recommended me to try. It kind of pisses me off using a power strip as I do not like them nor do I like power conditioners.


Which power strip did your dealer recommend?


----------



## ken6217

Monster HTS power strip.

His quote:
Ive used these VS very expensive power stuff and nothing cuts out the noise like these - I dont know why.  Especially for tube amps.


----------



## linziyi

ken6217 said:


> Monster HTS power strip.
> 
> His quote:
> Ive used these VS very expensive power stuff and nothing cuts out the noise like these - I dont know why.  Especially for tube amps.


When is your power strip coming in? I am super eager to hear if that reduce the noise at all!


----------



## ken6217

To me, taking out noise can't be selective. I wonder what else it takes away that you don't want taken away?


----------



## ken6217

ken6217 said:


> To me, taking out noise can't be selective. I wonder what else it takes away that you don't want taken away?


It says between Friday and Monday. I wouldn't hold my breath. The USPS near me is somewhere between inept and a cluster f uck.

I also ordered the IFI Defender through Amazon and that will be hear tmw. I'll let you know.


----------



## ken6217

paradoxper said:


> Any of the aforementioned isolators will work fine.


The question is, is the hum we are discussing ground fault for certain?


----------



## paradoxper

You'll find out by process of elimination.

As I alluded, it's also contextually dependent on how present the hum is and that is asking what nominal dB are you listening at for the noise to occur.


----------



## ken6217

Well the hum is there regardless where the volume is set. In other words it doesn’t change with the volume. I cannot hear it when the music is playing, but it’s really annoying to hear it in between songs because it’s not something that you have to really listen for. It’s right there in your face. 

I’ll try the two things I bought, and Cayin in China is working on it with me as well. Maybe the amp has some kind of Wuhan disease 🦠 

On a separate subject, for breakin, is it better to play long periods of time, or shorter periods of time where the amp is hot and then cools down. In other words the transformers would have heat cycles.


----------



## paradoxper

ken6217 said:


> Well the hum is there regardless where the volume is set. In other words it doesn’t change with the volume. I cannot hear it when the music is playing, but it’s really annoying to hear it in between songs because it’s not something that you have to really listen for. It’s right there in your face.
> 
> I’ll try the two things I bought, and Cayin in China is working on it with me as well. Maybe the amp has some kind of Wuhan disease 🦠
> 
> On a separate subject, for breakin, is it better to play long periods of time, or shorter periods of time where the amp is hot and then cools down. In other words the transformers would have heat cycles.


Even more likely it is a ground issue. 

You can heat cycle the tubes -- and you should be using AN 4300E (spectacular) and the Elrog 300B.


----------



## linziyi

paradoxper said:


> Even more likely it is a ground issue.
> 
> You can heat cycle the tubes -- and you should be using AN 4300E (spectacular) and the Elrog 300B.


If it is indeed a ground issue then it will fix my issue as well!!

i am experiencing the exact same hum! Volume independent


----------



## ken6217

Great. Thanks.


----------



## ken6217

paradoxper said:


> Even more likely it is a ground issue.
> 
> You can heat cycle the tubes -- and you should be using AN 4300E (spectacular) and the Elrog 300B.


Doesn’t sound like my kind of sound. Too clean and neutral. I’m using KR Audio 300B HP. 

Also TSRP as well as Ken Rad VT-231.


----------



## paradoxper

ken6217 said:


> Doesn’t sound like my kind of sound. Too clean and neutral. I’m using KR Audio 300B HP.
> 
> Also TSRP as well as Ken Rad VT-231.


KR is suited for you. ACME for a nice complement.


----------



## ken6217

paradoxper said:


> KR is suited for you. ACME for a nice complement.


I may try that.


----------



## helljudgement

Erwinatm said:


> I never tried EC and DNA, didn't have a chance to hear it in my country. I have listened to Woo WA5 1st gen with standard tubes a few years ago. I remember I could hear a little hiss with Grado though. Yes, it is more quiet than the HA300.
> 
> TBH, I prefer HA300 than WA5. Faster pace, tighter bass IMO.


The WA5 I tried was in show conditions so low level noise may not translate as well but I've also heard of complains of noise for certain headphones. The noise on the HA300 is very noticeable even in show conditions but with varying degrees of severity so I would like to try another unit out in future just to see if it is due to unit variations, tubes or what not. EC and DNA stuff are dead silent in a quiet room. They are as quiet as any low noise solid state headphone amps like RME ADI 2, HPA 4, BHA 1 etc.



ken6217 said:


> I ordered the IFI isolator and also a power strip that the dealer recommended me to try. It kind of pisses me off using a power strip as I do not like them nor do I like power conditioners.


It is a good sounding amp in my opinion but from what I've experienced so far, I would have little use for it beyond inefficient planar as the noise at worse is simply too loud with my Senns and ZMFs. If you are troubleshooting do consider switching out the tubes just to see if the noise is caused by the tubes. I've ran a pair of noisy JJs 300b tubes on my Studio B and noticed a constant humming on one side of the channel. Only when I switched to a new pair that the noise disappear completely. Sometimes noise can also be caused by faulty the input/driver tubes as I've also experience some noise on my own amp when rolling for tubes. No easy fix that I can think of nor is it cheap to do so. Definitely felt your frustration and I'll be pretty pissed if this were to happen to me on an amp that cost as much. Here's hoping yours will be resolved soon.


----------



## JeffMann (Jul 20, 2022)

It is my understanding that in balanced-drive headphone listening, a headphone amplifier is used that has “balanced” outputs wherein *each channel has a normal audio drive signal and a mirror image inverted drive signal*. However, according to the HA-300 literature, they state-: "_Since balanced headphone amplification is feeding opposing polarity signals to the left and right ear-cup of your headphone (in regardless of whether there is a dynamic driver or a planar inside).  We can achieve this through a specific method to wind the transformer so that the positive polarity (aka "hot") and negative polarity (aka "cold") are driven in opposite directions, hence deliver a fully balanced output from a single-ended tube amplification circuit._" If the HA300 is feeding opposite polarity signals to the left-and-right channels, does that not produce an out-of-phase scenario, and not a balanced scenario where each channel has a normal audio drive signal plus a mirror image inverted drive signal?

By the way, I live in Salt Lake City, USA and I would like to audition a HA-300 headphone amplifier using my Susvara headphone. If any forum member lives in Salt Lake City, and if they will allow me to audition their HA-300 amplifier, I will greatly appreciate the opportunity.

Jeff.


----------



## Palyodgree

JeffMann said:


> It is my understanding that in balanced-drive headphone listening, a headphone amplifier is used that has “balanced” outputs wherein *each channel has a normal audio drive signal and a mirror image inverted drive signal*. However, according to the HA-300 literature, they state-: "_Since balanced headphone amplification is feeding opposing polarity signals to the left and right ear-cup of your headphone (in regardless of whether there is a dynamic driver or a planar inside).  We can achieve this through a specific method to wind the transformer so that the positive polarity (aka "hot") and negative polarity (aka "cold") are driven in opposite directions, hence deliver a fully balanced output from a single-ended tube amplification circuit._" If the HA300 is feeding opposite polarity signals to the left-and-right channels, does that not produce an out-of-phase scenario, and not a balanced scenario where each channel has a normal audio drive signal plus a mirror image inverted drive signal?
> 
> By the way, I live in Salt Lake City, USA and I would like to audition a HA-300 headphone amplifier using my Susvara headphone. If any forum member lives in Salt Lake City, and if they will allow me to audition their HA-300 amplifier, I will greatly appreciate the opportunity.
> 
> Jeff.


Jeff I have borrowed the Susvaras and can tell you the 300b is such a go match for me it’s just a 7K buying decision . This past winter I purchased the Ha-300 MK 1 slightly used though I was able to try it out firsthand. Just a few months ago my headphone system used a 432 Evo Aeon server with a Holo Audio May KTE dac and a used purchase of HEKSE headphones which I still have .

 What I find most thrilling with the Susvaras is how they render the human pitch , a step above the HEKSE as it should be for the extra cost however that is not always the case.


----------



## JeffMann (Jul 21, 2022)

Palyodgree said:


> Jeff I have borrowed the Susvaras and can tell you the 300b is such a go match for me it’s just a 7K buying decision . This past winter I purchased the Ha-300 MK 1 slightly used though I was able to try it out firsthand. Just a few months ago my headphone system used a 432 Evo Aeon server with a Holo Audio May KTE dac and a used purchase of HEKSE headphones which I still have .
> 
> What I find most thrilling with the Susvaras is how they render the human pitch , a step above the HEKSE as it should be for the extra cost however that is not always the case.


I have never heard my 3 year-old Susvara headphones produce the human pitch (musical tone/timbre) accurately despite having tried it with 5 different solid state amplifiers (Vioelectric V281, Niimbus US4+, Audio-GD M19, Kinki Studio Vision THR, Vioelectric V550). My Susvara sounds too thin and bright with not enough tonal weight. At the present time, I mainly listen to my Meze Empy Elite headphones which are much more accurate in my audio system from a musical timbre/tone perspective. I would be very interested in hearing the Susvara with a 300B tube amplifier.

Jeff.

p.s. My audio system is as follows-: Jays Audio CDT2Mk3 CD-Transport => Musical Aquarius DAC => Vioelectric V550 headphone amplifier => Headphones.


----------



## Andykong

ken6217 said:


> They should add a blurb on the Cayin website that says there is an audible hum using the following headphones………..
> 
> Do you hear it all once the music is playing ?



If someone hears a hum, it must be the amplifier, so Cayin should declare this base on user complaint? Is that what you mean?


----------



## ken6217

Andykong said:


> If someone hears a hum, it must be the amplifier, so Cayin should declare this base on user complaint? Is that what you mean?


I think that if multiple people with 300 ohm headphones have this issue, then yes. I have had quite a few tube amps on my circuit with no issue. I will say that they weren't 300 ohm headphones however. I did try a 13 ohm headphone and had no hum.

My dealer recommended a power strip to try and feels that will eliminate the issue. I will report back next week when I receive it if it solved the issue or not.


----------



## helljudgement

Andykong said:


> If someone hears a hum, it must be the amplifier, so Cayin should declare this base on user complaint? Is that what you mean?


A user who spent over 4 grand on an amplifier has been experiencing humming issues on said amp, expresses frustration and seeking help for the past few days on a community thread created specifically for said amp, and yet the sponsor of said amp company decides the best way to respond is to sarcastically comment on something that was written in frustration by a paying customer who has experienced potentially a product fault instead of reaching out and trying to resolve said issue. 

Bravo.


----------



## ken6217

helljudgement said:


> A user who spent over 4 grand on an amplifier has been experiencing humming issues on said amp, expresses frustration and seeking help for the past few days on a community thread created specifically for said amp, and yet the sponsor of said amp company decides the best way to respond is to sarcastically comment on something that was written in frustration by a paying customer who has experienced potentially a product fault instead of reaching out and trying to resolve said issue.
> 
> Bravo.


Edit. Multiple users.


----------



## wazzupi

Pretty sure he has responded with cause of the issues, the possible fixes of said issues. But he hasn’t responded directly to @ken6217.


----------



## Andykong (Jul 21, 2022)

ken6217 said:


> Yes. Through the headphones.
> 
> I thought Inhad read a week or so ago about somebody having a similar issue with the HD 820 I think. Andy supposedly said that and they never tested it with that headphone.
> 
> So they didn’t test it with Sennheiser and I guess ZMF. That’s a pretty big size of the 300 ohm market.



I said we haven't tested HD820 with HA-300 or HA-300MK2 when someone asked this question, explicitly through PM.  On the other hand, we have tested HD800 and used HD800S as a demo headphone with HA-300MK2 in multiple shows and events.  We didn't test ZMF headphones in our lab, because there is no ZMF dealer in China, at the time we develop HA-300MK2.  Fortunately Zack becomes a Cayin dealer, and he used HA-300MK2 as one of the reference demos in CanJam Chicago, there is numerous impression mentioned HA-300MK2 with various ZMF headphones (*HERE*, *HERE *and *HERE*, just to name a few) and none of them mentioned excessive noise during their audition.  

Let's be fair, when I was asked whether we have tested HD820 with HA-300MK2, he didn't mention the noise problem.  He just asked specifically did we test this headphone with that particular amp., If the discussion was more transparent, I could have provided more information related to HD800 and HD800S before the message was spread.  I am sorry that you were misled to assume that we didn't test it with Sennheiser at all.


----------



## ken6217

Andykong said:


> I said we haven't tested HD820 with HA-300 or HA-300MK2 when someone asked this question, especially through PM.  On the other hand, we have tested HD800 and used HD800S as a demo headphone with HA-300MK2 in multiple shows and events.  We didn't test ZMF headphones in our lab, because there is no ZMF dealer in China, at the time we develop HA-300MK2.  Fortunately Zack becomes a Cayin dealer, and he used HA-300MK2 as one of the reference demos in CanJam Chicago, there is numerous impression mentioned HA-300MK2 with various ZMF headphones (*HERE*, *HERE *and *HERE*, just to name a few) and none of them mentioned excessive noise during their audition.
> 
> Let's be fair, when I was asked whether we have tested HD820 with HA-300MK2, he didn't mention the noise problem.  He just asked specifically did we test this headphone with that particular amp., If the discussion was more transparent, I could have provided more information related to HD800 and HD800S before the message was spread.  I am sorry that you were misled to assume that we didn't test it with Sennheiser at all.


No problem. I was just frustrated and bummed out by hearing the hum. I am in the midst of trying a couple of things to see if I can resolve the issue, if it is indeed outside the amp itself. I will report back the results.


----------



## linziyi

ken6217 said:


> No problem. I was just frustrated and bummed out by hearing the hum. I am in the midst of trying a couple of things to see if I can resolve the issue, if it is indeed outside the amp itself. I will report back the result


if you don’t mind me asking, how is the ifi ground defender/isolator? Does it reduce or eliminate the hum?


----------



## ken6217

linziyi said:


> if you don’t mind me asking, how is the ifi ground defender/isolator? Does it reduce or eliminate the hum?


I’ll give you a hint. I just sent it back to Amazon.


----------



## Andykong (Jul 21, 2022)

linziyi said:


> The DAC is already only using 2-prong, iPad and laptop runs off its own electricity. I am in a house and have tired turning off all the breakers except for the one powering the amp.
> 
> US outlet is 120V 60 Hz, and from my understanding a rectifier doubles the frequency. So if I am hearing 120 Hz, it is from the electric outlet after all??





linziyi said:


> Unfortunately no I don’t have any source that doesn’t go through USB. Will a better power conditioner/filter resolve the issue? I am only using a relatively cheap power filter from Furman.


I'll respond to you first since you are the first user to mention the hum problem in this round.  I'll respond to Ken separately tomorrow or the day after because I am not 100% sure you and Ken are having the same problem (and this is 3am in my timezone).  From what I read, you heard the hum from the outboard Power Supply and it is 120Hz in your assessment, while Ken only mentioned noise from headphone output.

Your observation is correct, when you head 120Hz, it is likely a doubled of 60Hz after rectifier and that's why my immediate response was to check out the various frequently-mentioned sources of hum.  For those who joined the thread only these few days, please check my test recommendation *HERE*. For the record, switching power supply and power supply with non-digital dimmer features are the two biggest sources of ground hum.  If you use a computer as your USB Audio source, the noise from the switching power supply will go into the DAC and then be passed to the amplifier via the USB Audio connection. Some USB has better isolation in their USB receiver circuit and stopped the pollution, others don't. 



linziyi said:


> If it is indeed a ground issue then it will fix my issue as well!!
> 
> i am experiencing the exact same hum! Volume independent





linziyi said:


> What would be an easy way to eliminate ground fault?





linziyi said:


> Is this similar to what you are hearing?
> 
> https://voca.ro/1et7cYEA6XAP
> 
> This was recorded from my headphone by putting the mic close to the earcup. It’s about 120Hz





linziyi said:


> From my understanding Cayin used HD800 and HD800s as part of their reference headphone when developing the amp, shouldn’t they be able to mitigate the background hum from these headphone? That’s why I am particularly surprised by the background hum given I am using one of their development headphones.



Yes, as mentioned in my previous post, we used HD800 and HD800S with HA-300MK2 and we didn't notice any excessive noise or hum in our test.  We didn't use HD820.  Since we have used HD800 and HD800S, we didn't perceive the need to test HD820 specifically, we just assume they are similar enough electrically.

You have mentioned that noise is volume independent, how about impedance setting?  I assume you are using High impedance setting with HD8xx headphones, can you try Low and Mid impedance settings and tell us whether the noise level will lower when you switch the impedance setting to Low or Mid.  If that's the case, the hum noise level is directly related to output power, so it is not a bug in the signal path, it can be an external noise that gets amplified LOUDER at high impedance because of higher rated output at this setting.

Will a better power conditioner/filter resolve the issue?  It depends.  In my experience, a filtering type power conditioner won't solve the hum problem you are dealing with.  Isolation Transformer power conditioner might work (very likely), and Re-gen Power Conditioner will work in most cases, but you cannot connect your PC (with switching power supply) to the Power conditioner.



Erwinatm said:


> Hum coming out from transformer most likely caused by bad transformer or electricity.
> 
> Again, for your case, I suggest you bring your amp to dealer or technician to be checked.





paradoxper said:


> You'll find out by process of elimination.
> 
> As I alluded, it's also contextually dependent on how present the hum is and that is asking what nominal dB are you listening at for the noise to occur.




Erwinatm's comment is right on: bad transformer or electricity.
paradoxper provided the guideline to debug the sound system: by process of elimination.
If we can, through a series of tests, eliminated electricity as a source of your hum problem, then we'll arrive at the final hypothesis that the power supply transformer is having some problem.  It can be a broken transformer shield that caused leaking of electromagnetic interference from the power transformer into the power supply circuit, just an example of different outcomes.


----------



## linziyi

Andykong said:


> I'll respond to you first since you are the first user to mention the hum problem in this round.  I'll respond to Ken separately tomorrow or the day after because I am not 100% sure you and Ken are having the same problem (and this is 3am in my timezone).  From what I read, you heard the hum from the outboard Power Supply and it is 120Hz in your assessment, while Ken only mentioned noise from headphone output.
> 
> Your observation is correct, when you head 120Hz, it is likely a doubled of 60Hz after rectifier and that's why my immediate response was to check out the various frequently-mentioned sources of hum.  For those who joined the thread only these few days, please check my test recommendation *HERE*. For the record, switching power supply and power supply with non-digital dimmer features are the two biggest sources of ground hum.  If you use a computer as your USB Audio source, the noise from the switching power supply will go into the DAC and then be passed to the amplifier via the USB Audio connection. Some USB has better isolation in their USB receiver circuit and stopped the pollution, others don't.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your follow up! The hum from the headphone does get louder with higher impedance settings.

I do hear the same frequency of hum through the headphone, and also when I put my ear Against the base of the outboard power supply As well as the transformer in the power supply. I am actually bringing the amp to the dealer in a week and we will see if the hum persist in more ideal electrical environment than my house!


----------



## Palyodgree

JeffMann said:


> I have never heard my 3 year-old Susvara headphones produce the human pitch (musical tone/timbre) accurately despite having tried it with 5 different solid state amplifiers (Vioelectric V281, Niimbus US4+, Audio-GD M19, Kinki Studio Vision THR, Vioelectric V550). My Susvara sounds too thin and bright with not enough tonal weight. At the present time, I mainly listen to my Meze Empy Elite headphones which are much more accurate in my audio system from a musical timbre/tone perspective. I would be very interested in hearing the Susvara with a 300B tube amplifier.
> 
> Jeff.
> 
> p.s. My audio system is as follows-: Jays Audio CDT2Mk3 CD-Transport => Musical Aquarius DAC => Vioelectric V550 headphone amplifier => Headphones.


Sure , it’s my own subjective taste a reference for testing my wife a studio vocalist a voice I know intimately along with a verity of commercial recordings mostly Jazz female categories , Im quite pleased what I am hearing now though it took time to get there,  I find the Susvaras to be an absolutely beautiful fit in the chain .


----------



## steve468 (Jul 22, 2022)

In terms of noise, on my mk1 I do find there’s a high noise floor with sensitive headphones, mostly on high impedance. I have found this noise is greatly affected by the 6sn7s - the pairs I have can vary wildly in how quiet or noisy they are, but all including the stock tubes have some noise. I haven't changed the 300bs to know if they also make a difference.

What I did was buy an attenuation cable meant for using iems with desktop amps (top of this page, from Garage 1217: http://garage1217.com/g1217_011.htm). It drops the noise floor considerably, and as a bonus allows for more play in the volume dial. There's PROBABLY a trade off in sound quality, but for me it would take some heavy duty abx testing to find it.

I don't know if this would help with hum problems (my noise is more tape hiss-like), but I just thought I'd throw this suggestion out there.


----------



## Ysound

I ended up returning my replacement unit because of the power supply buzzing noises.
$4400 amp and I can only use with the Susvara and not my daily HD820.
I think the amp is not quite ready for primetime with a few kink need to be work out.
Sticking with the Benchmark amp for now and shall revisit this amp at a later time.
Anyone looking for a brand new pair of ACME 300B for the MK2.


----------



## Erwinatm

steve468 said:


> In terms of noise, on my mk1 I do find there’s a high noise floor with sensitive headphones, mostly on high impedance. I have found this noise is greatly affected by the 6sn7s - the pairs I have can vary wildly in how quiet or noisy they are, but all including the stock tubes have some noise. I haven't changes the 300bs to know if they also make a difference.
> 
> What I did was buy an attenuation cable meant for using iems with desktop amps (top of this page, from Garage 1217: http://garage1217.com/g1217_011.htm). It drops the noise floor considerably, and as a bonus allows for more play in the volume dial. There's PROBABLY a trade off in sound quality, but for me it would take some heavy duty abx testing to find it.
> 
> I don't know if this would help with hum problems (my noise is more tape hiss-like), but I just thought I'd throw this suggestion out there.


I just changed the 6SN7 with Sylvania VT231 (not the Bad Boy tho),  I can tell you that the hum from Atrium/VC has dropped significantly compare to stock TungSol 6SN7-GTB Brown base or TungSol 6SN7-GTB Black plate.

 It confirms steve468's statement.


----------



## tdx

Quick question for fellow owners: there is no way to plug in active speakers directly to the amp right? Only passive?


----------



## llamaluv

I'm kind of like a broken record, here on this thread, posting every few months about headphones that I think work well with the HA-300. The latest is the *Solitaire P*.

The way I hear it, this headphone has a kind of understated quality about it, and I was pretty underwhelmed by it for the couple hours listening to it on solid state to be honest. Some of the best gear that we grow to understand and appreciate better over time has this quality, but yea we'll see.

Anyway, it opens up a great deal out of the HA-300, which deepens and widens the soundstage, and really brings out the headphone's imaging capabilities. Its imaging is my favorite quality of the Solitaire P so far. 

The imaging on this album is amazing, and really creates an impression with this combo:




Qobuz link


----------



## Erwinatm

llamaluv said:


> I'm kind of like a broken record, here on this thread, posting every few months about headphones that I think work well with the HA-300. The latest is the *Solitaire P*.
> 
> The way I hear it, this headphone has a kind of understated quality about it, and I was pretty underwhelmed by it for the couple hours listening to it on solid state to be honest. Some of the best gear that we grow to understand and appreciate better over time has this quality, but yea we'll see.
> 
> ...


Nice post. After few weeks of reading noise, hum distorsion in this thread, this one is like a cold beer in hot summer day.

Let me add another one with my experience rolling 6SN7 tubes.

Out of the box, this HA300-Mk2 is already good sounding 300B amp. Far from old style 300B amps sound which are slow, fat loosy bass, warmish, roll of highs, mid centric etc. It is open, fast, wide and tall soundstage and still has the 300B magical midrange. 

I am lucky enough to have several 6SN7s to play with. My impression below is reffered to standard Tungsol 6SN7-GTB come with the amps. 

1. Sylvania VT231 : black plate 2 holes, oval mica, black base.
- sweeter and more forward midrange, warmer, narrower but taller n deeper ss, same bass quantity, black background.
- very quiet tubes, a cure for noise on ZMFs headphones.

2. KenRad VT231: black glass
- superior bass, warmer, big sounstage, this is for bass head and good for bass pumping music.
- quieter than stock TS but not as quiet as Sylvania.

3. Mullard ECC33 : brown base, round mica, grey plate.
- very high gain. I only tested it for 10 mins. It is not direct replacement for 6SN7, I think it draws too much current and I'm afraid might fry transformer for long run. However, the sound is beautiful, like sylvania with more extended top and bigger midrange.
- noisy and not recommended.

4. NOS Tungsol 6SN7-GTB : black plate, black base.
- sweeter and more forward mids, same highs but smoother edges, same bass, same size staging. It is a better TS than the stock one.
- a little bit noisier than stock TS. I like this NOS TS. Recommended if you can live with a bit of noise/hum.

Hope this find you well and enjoy the music.


----------



## Erwinatm

tdx said:


> Quick question for fellow owners: there is no way to plug in active speakers directly to the amp right? Only passive?


Actually It can but not recommended. Just connect/solder cables from speakers out to RCA connectors.

But WARNING, be careful with your volume control. Too loud will fry your active speakers.


----------



## dadracer2

Erwinatm said:


> Nice post. After few weeks of reading noise, hum distorsion in this thread, this one is like a cold beer in hot summer day.
> 
> Let me add another one with my experience rolling 6SN7 tubes.
> 
> ...


Nice write up and wondering if you tried any of the new manufacture 6SN7 from the likes of PSVANE or Linlai?


----------



## Erwinatm (Jul 23, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> Nice write up and wondering if you tried any of the new manufacture 6SN7 from the likes of PSVANE or Linlai?


Not yet. Looking forward to buy some if they are available in my country.

If you like to listen to vocal, chamber music, sax, guitar etc, I recommend sylvania. It will bring out the glorious midrange of 300B.

However, my nx mission is 300B tubes rolling. Eager to hear WE, Linlai WE copy, sophia royal princess, KR Audio, Audio Note or Takatsuki.


----------



## mfgillia

Has anyone tried the Elrog ER300Bs yet in their Cayin HA 300 and if so were those were able to fit without removing the cage?


----------



## Erwinatm

mfgillia said:


> Has anyone tried the Elrog ER300Bs yet in their Cayin HA 300 and if so were those were able to fit without removing the cage?


How is Elrog sound with Cayin?


----------



## ARCXENOS

Erwinatm said:


> However, my nx mission is 300B tubes rolling. Anxious to hear WE, Linlai WE copy, sophia royal princess, KR Audio, Audio Note or Takatsuki.


I would definitely be interested in reading your thoughts when you do get to compare them on the mk2!

I was thinking of getting new production Western Electric's, but going blind on a pair that cost 1/3 of the amp itself seems like a big gamble!


----------



## Erwinatm (Jul 23, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> I would definitely be interested in reading your thoughts when you do get to compare them on the mk2!
> 
> I was thinking of getting new production Western Electric's, but going blind on a pair that cost 1/3 of the amp itself seems like a big gamble!


Yes I will post it here when I have those tubes.

I heard NOS WE has long life, longer than most 300B tubes. Is it worth US$4000? Probably I won't go to that direction.

My shortlist is Sophia/Takatsuki.


----------



## mfgillia (Jul 23, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Yes I will post it here when I have those tubes.
> 
> I heard new WE has long life, longer than most 300B tubes. Is it worth US$4000? Probably I won't go to that direction.
> 
> My shortlist is Sophia/Takatsuki.


What's USD $4,000? Aren't the new WE300Bs listed at $1,500 for a matched pair with a 5 year warranty?


----------



## mfgillia

Erwinatm said:


> How is Elrog sound with Cayin?


I've heard in general they tend to outperform the competition in bass impact, resolution and clarity but would love to hear impressions from those who tried it on this amp. 

I have also heard they're taller than average 300B tubes and may not fit inside the cage, which I tend to keep on most of the time.


----------



## Erwinatm

mfgillia said:


> What's USD $4,000? Aren't the new WE300Bs listed at $1,500 for a matched pair with a 5 year warranty?


Oops sorry my mind was on the NOS one for 4k.


----------



## Erwinatm

mfgillia said:


> I've heard in general they tend to outperform the competition in bass impact, resolution and clarity but would love to hear impressions from those who tried it on this amp.
> 
> I have also heard they're taller than average 300B tubes and may not fit inside the cage, which I tend to keep on most of the time.


How much are they? Outperform sophia / takatsuki? Hmmm sounds interesting. I took out the cage. Looks nicer without the cage.


----------



## ken6217

The best for bass impact is the KR Audio 300B HP.


----------



## Yggy

Hi, is that the 300b or 300bxlr on their website? It looks like you sold yours in 2020. Did you sell you HA-300 or switch to another tube? Thanks.


----------



## ken6217

It was called 300B HP. You’ll never figure out what any of that is. There’sthr balloon, theres thr coke bottle, there’s the HP, Who knows if they’re all one in the same or three different tubes. 

I doubt you’ll find any new 300B from KR unless you hunt around.


----------



## ThanatosVI

ken6217 said:


> It was called 300B HP. You’ll never figure out what any of that is. There’sthr balloon, theres thr coke bottle, there’s the HP, Who knows if they’re all one in the same or three different tubes.
> 
> I doubt you’ll find any new 300B from KR unless you hunt around.


The Balloon Version is available here:
https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/kr-audio-300b-balloon-paar-2-gematchte-roehren

Trustworthy dealer, I purchase nearly all my tubes there. Based in germany but does send International


----------



## ken6217

They do look different than the HP tube I have here. I have no idea how they are in comparison. I do know that Abyss was selling the HP when they were selling the Woo WA5.


----------



## Yggy

I traded in my Diana Phi, HE1000SE and a cash top up for an ex demo 1266 Phi TC today. It’s unbeatable with the right hi res bass heavy music but not as versatile or forgiving as the Susvara or HE-6. 

One of the stretch rings on the 1266 Phi TC headband snapped within 2 hours of listening. Annoyingly, it’s not the latest version with user replaceable rings. 

I’ve sold / traded in Utopias, HD-800, Diana Phi, and HE1000SE headphones in recent months. The only one I miss with the HA-300 is the Diana Phi. They have a really lovely synergy together. 

AndyKong said the Phi TC wasn’t the best TOTL headphone match with the HA-300 and I think that’s true. It can still do things Susvaras and HE-6 can’t do and it’s got a unique sound. 

The HE1000SE is an excellent headphone, I thought it edged out the Utopias, but it was always a slightly different, slightly lesser, version of the Susvara so I had to consciously choose to listen to it. 

The HE1000SE was the best over-the-ears listen with my FiiO M17 digital music player because it did 90% of what the Susvara could do whilst being much easier to drive. 

Based on what I’ve read, I’m wondering if the Takatsuki and Elrog 300b tubes might be a good match with the HA-300 and 1266 Phi TC? Has anybody compared the KR Audio 300b HP or similar to Takatsuki and Elrog with a HA-300 and 1266 combination? I’m using new production Western Electric WE300b tubes with the HA-300 at the moment.


----------



## ken6217

I think a 300B amp wouldn’t be a bad match for the 1266 TC. It needs an amp to fill in the midrange. 

Don’t limit yourself to thr 300B tubes. The driver tubes make as big a difference, or even more of a difference. Take a look at the Ken Rad VT-231 tubes.


----------



## Yggy

I’m using NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases. They cost me 950 Euros. Ken Rad VT-231 would cost less than half that. Would they be that much better for the Phi TC?


----------



## wazzupi

Yggy said:


> I’m using NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases. They cost me 950 Euros. Ken Rad VT-231 would cost less than half that. Would they be that much better for the Phi TC?


Whatttt I should of kept my metal bases I paid like 250 dollars for a pair only 4 years ago 

Ps those were my favorite tubes


----------



## ARCXENOS (Jul 30, 2022)

wazzupi said:


> Whatttt I should of kept my metal bases I paid like 250 dollars for a pair only 4 years ago
> 
> Ps those were my favorite tubes


I have been shopping around, vintage 6SN7's prices have gotten pretty out of hand indeed.

Got a pair of ken-rad vt-231 that should be coming in next week, hopefully I will enjoy them like many others. I am also looking at RCA vt-231 and melz 1578, and after that I will take a break from 6SN7 pairs, it has been a fun journey for me.


----------



## wazzupi

ARCXENOS said:


> I have been shopping around, vintage 6SN7's prices have gotten pretty out of hand indeed.
> 
> Got a pair of ken-rad vt-231 that should be coming in next week, hopefully I will enjoy them like many others. I am also looking at RCA vt-231 and melz 1578, and after that I will take a break from 6SN7 pairs, it has been a fun journey for me.


I own the melz 1578 but I just sold my Cayin 300b with those tubes included


----------



## ARCXENOS

wazzupi said:


> I own the melz 1578 but I just sold my Cayin 300b with those tubes included


Same feeling when I sold off my preamp with a bunch of tubes I reckon  I probably should had kept some indeed!


----------



## ken6217 (Jul 30, 2022)

Yggy said:


> I’m using NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases. They cost me 950 Euros. Ken Rad VT-231 would cost less than half that. Would they be that much better for the Phi TC?


For $800 you can buy arguably the best 6SN6GT tubes. Tung Sol Round Plate Black Glass.I’m selling my new NOS with only a couple of hours in them just to hear them.  Selling because I’m also going to sell my replacement (new) HA-300 MK2 that’s arriving today. I’m enjoying my SS amp and I basically lost interest after sending back the original amp.


----------



## Sampajanna

800 is a bit steep, even if only slightly used. Have you measured them since you used them. I could be interested in getting them for my dac. Those are indeed the best. I use the VT99 on my HA300 Mk1 to very great effect (with woo adaptors)


----------



## ken6217

Sampajanna said:


> 800 is a bit steep, even if only slightly used. Have you measured them since you used them. I could be interested in getting them for my dac. Those are indeed the best. I use the VT99 on my HA300 Mk1 to very great effect (with woo adaptors)


I agree they are steep, but thats what I paid for them. Unfortunately thats what a good pair go for these days. I've seen some for more, but of course that doesn't mean they will sell.

No need to test them as I haven't used them yet as I sent my amp back too the dealer, and am waiting for there new one in return. I'm selling the amp and so no need for the tubes.


----------



## Yggy

wazzupi said:


> Whatttt I should of kept my metal bases I paid like 250 dollars for a pair only 4 years ago
> 
> Ps those were my favorite tubes


Do you remember how yours measured? I did a lot of research at the time I bought my Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases and couldn’t find anything better for the price.


----------



## Sampajanna

Metal base sylvania are also great. I have some. They are wonderful. The black TS are better though, IMO. I have seen the TS recently for 650$ You never know. One pair on ebay now is indeed 850 from Vietnam… Good luck!


----------



## ken6217

Sampajanna said:


> Metal base sylvania are also great. I have some. They are wonderful. The black TS are better though, IMO. I have seen the TS recently for 650$ You never know. One pair on ebay now is indeed 850 from Vietnam… Good luck!


I wouldn't trust the guy from Vietnam. I bought a pair of Mullard 12AU7 from him and it was less than good experience.


----------



## Yggy

Somebody is selling 5 matched 6SN7W metal base tubes on eBay for USD 2,700 and helpfully will take and record measurements before shipping!


----------



## Sampajanna

ken6217 said:


> I wouldn't trust the guy from Vietnam. I bought a pair of Mullard 12AU7 from him and it was less than good experience.


Goo to know. Thanks.


----------



## Yggy

I’ve considered buying tubes from the guy in Vietnam but was always a bit nervous. Given the choice, I’d always buy new production tubes. Buying new production Western Electric WE300b tubes was an easy decision with the 5 year warranty.


----------



## Sampajanna

Yggy said:


> Somebody is selling 5 matched 6SN7W metal base tubes on eBay for USD 2,700 and helpfully will take and record measurements before shipping!


Nice. You cannot go wrong with these. I am rolling 6sn7 in my new dac… As for the Cayin, my personal favorite so far is the the TS-vt99 with woo adapters. really nice. I do listen to the cans, but not as often or as intensely as my A rig, so that is about as far as I go on drivers for it. Lots of those vt99 tubes around for cheap too. But you won’t be disappointed with those metal base either


----------



## Yggy

Anybody ever heard the Phi TC with stock and superconductor cables with the HA-300? Is it worth upgrading? I always stuck with the stock cable with my Diana Phis.


----------



## wazzupi

Yggy said:


> Do you remember how yours measured? I did a lot of research at the time I bought my Sylvania 6SN7W metal bases and couldn’t find anything better for the price.


Oh man honestly I don’t, I did have one blow up on me(didn’t physically blow up) so I had to buy another one… the guy sold me one at a huge discount though.


----------



## tdx

Yggy said:


> I’ve considered buying tubes from the guy in Vietnam but was always a bit nervous. Given the choice, I’d always buy new production tubes. Buying new production Western Electric WE300b tubes was an easy decision with the 5 year warranty.


Speaking of which, if the WE 300s are considered excellent sounding, safe to buy new production 300B tubes, what would be the equivalent for 6SN7s? I'd like to upgrade the stock tubes of my HA300 Mk2 but I'd rather go new production tubes and I'm not sure which ones are considered best.


----------



## skylinekursk

Interesting how it performs versus Auris Nirvana... 
I had ha6a for few month it was very good amp but not on the level of Nirvana...definitely


----------



## Yggy

I switched to a v2 version of the Abyss 1266 Phi TC headband and have 7-8 hours of listening with the HA-300. The bass dynamics and clarity on hi-res EDM, modern bass heavy pop, R&B, and hip hop are majestic. They are more comfortable on than they look. I had no issues with comfort or fit. 

The stock cable sounds fine but it’s too long for my liking at 2.5m and the inflexibility and cable separation between the mini XLR and XLR connectors make it difficult to manage. It keeps slipping down the side of my Herman Miller office chair and getting caught in it. 

I don’t think it’s worth buying a superconductor cable, from what I read it adds warmth and fills in the mids a bit but the HA-300 is doing that anyway so why buy a dog and bark yourself. 

Why is the Susvara better than the Abyss 1266 Phi TC with the HA-300? Because it’s more versatile across music genres and gets closer to what the 1266 Phi TC can do to blow your socks off than the other way round. 

If you listen to Leonard Cohen’s You Want It Darker on the Phi TC, it’s hopeless. The bass skewed tuning, pumped up sound stage, and hollowed out mids wreck his voice. The Susvara and HA-300 make Leonard Cohen’s raspy, gravelly, deep, octogenarian voice sound other-worldly. 

However, give the Susvara Daft Punk’s Random Access Memories in hi res and it delivers superb bass, just not quite as dynamic and show-stopping as the 1266 Phi TC. 

If you are going to buy one pair of TOTL headphones for the HA-300, I’d go with Susvaras, Diana Phi, HE1000SE, Utopias, and HD800s in that order. I’ve owned and sold the last 4 of those. Headphones like the 1266 Phi TC, HE-6, and K1000 all do something better than any other headphone with the HA-300 but you have to be listening to the right music and in the right mood. 

The Sennheiser HD540 should get an honourable mention for being the best bang for your buck all-rounder. The is one on auction on eBay UK with a starting price of £89.99. It’s has a refreshingly old-school bass-lite sound with exceptional clarity and is light as a feather on your head.


----------



## Toonartist (Jul 31, 2022)

Yggy said:


> The stock cable sounds fine but it’s too long for my liking at 2.5m and the inflexibility and cable separation between the mini XLR and XLR connectors make it difficult to manage. It keeps slipping down the side of my Herman Miller office chair and getting caught in it.


This may or may not be of any use to you but just in case.

I also use a long cable in the office as I change from sitting to standing a lot for drawing. I also have a Herman Miller chair. What I do is run the cable directly under the desk using velcro slings. I cut a few 10cm lengths of cable tie velcro and staple them to the underside of the desk. Spaced out from the point where the amp comes from with the very last one being where the chair is.

It keeps the cable out of the way so you have a clear desk etc and is easy to remove from the velcro slings after I finish working. The headphone cable literally comes out from under the desk where my waist is and straight up to the headphones. You can easily adjust the slack and let the cable hang at various points and quickly draw more cable or reduce it.

Hard to explain but if you need it, I'll take a pic to show if you think it maybe useful.


----------



## Yggy

That’s a good idea for keeping cables tidy and preventing tangling. Thanks!


----------



## Andykong

Yggy said:


> I switched to a v2 version of the Abyss 1266 Phi TC headband and have 7-8 hours of listening with the HA-300. The bass dynamics and clarity on hi-res EDM, modern bass heavy pop, R&B, and hip hop are majestic. They are more comfortable on than they look. I had no issues with comfort or fit.
> 
> The stock cable sounds fine but it’s too long for my liking at 2.5m and the inflexibility and cable separation between the mini XLR and XLR connectors make it difficult to manage. It keeps slipping down the side of my Herman Miller office chair and getting caught in it.
> 
> ...



My impression fit with your headphone ranking and description, with the exception of Diana Phi which I haven't tried with HA-300 or HA-300MK2.  Susvara is also my choice of reference demo for HA-300 when the budget is not a concern.  

Not sure if Meze Elite and Kennerton Thror/Rognir are accessible to you, they are my next-best planars after Susvara with HA-300/HA-300MK2.

By the way, glad to witness another HD540 converted HeadFier.  They are really worth checking out.


----------



## brokemember

@Andykong would you happen to know the length of the _umbilical_ _cord_?


----------



## Andykong

brokemember said:


> @Andykong would you happen to know the length of the _umbilical_ _cord_?


I believe the original HA-300 umbilical cord was 90cm.  I don't know the length of the cord with HA-300MK2 but should be able to find out as Cayin will have a big booth at the Hong Kong Audio-Visual this weekend (5-7 August 2022), I'll be there at the booth.  will report after the show.


----------



## brokemember

Andykong said:


> I believe the original HA-300 umbilical cord was 90cm.  I don't know the length of the cord with HA-300MK2 but should be able to find out as Cayin will have a big booth at the Hong Kong Audio-Visual this weekend (5-7 August 2022), I'll be there at the booth.  will report after the show.




Could you also enquire if they sell that umbilical cord in other lengths — looking at the website was not really helpful.

Thanks


----------



## Andykong (Aug 3, 2022)

brokemember said:


> Could you also enquire if they sell that umbilical cord in other lengths — looking at the website was not really helpful.
> 
> Thanks


Sorry, we didn't make the umbilical cord in our factory, we custom order from a cable supplier in bulk, so we can't offer a custom version of the umbilical cord.   There is a *Contact us* section on the Cayin website, you can drop an email to the *technical support* for product information, and *service support* for warranty, repair, and support services such as replacement components or accessories.

Alternatively, if you have consulted your Cayin dealer regarding the local retail price (after tax) and date of availability, you can consult your dealer for detailed product information that is not listed on the website, the dealers are meant to be the first contact point on local sales activities.


----------



## brokemember

Got it. 

Btw, the umbilical cord is 89cm (in case someone else is looking for that information too).


----------



## Wes S (Aug 4, 2022)

Hey folks!  Happy to say, I will be joining the HA300mk2 club soon, as I just purchased a silver version from my favorite dealer this morning.   This will be my first time ever hearing a 300B tube, and I am so pumped I can barely contain myself.  I am an avid tube roller, and can't wait to have some serious fun with this amp.  I plan to stick with the stock 300B's for a while just to get a base line.  As for the 6SN7's, I already have a ton of experience with those, and plan to roll them from the start, as I know new production 6SN7's can't hold a candle next to some of the better NOS ones.   Fun times ahead and more to come soon. . .


----------



## dadracer2

Wes S said:


> Hey folks!  Happy to say, I will be joining the HA300mk2 club soon, as I just purchased a silver version from ZMF this morning.   This will be my first time ever hearing a 300B tube, and I am so pumped I can barely contain myself.  I am an avid tube roller, and can't wait to have some serious fun with this amp.  I plan to stick with the stock 300B's for a while just to get a base line.  As for the 6SN7's, I already have a ton of experience with those, and plan to roll them from the start, as I know new production 6SN7's can't hold a candle next to some of the better NOS ones.   Fun times ahead and more to come soon. . .


Yes please, keep us updated. This is a topic I have been pondering over for a while now.


----------



## steve468

Wes S said:


> Hey folks!  Happy to say, I will be joining the HA300mk2 club soon, as I just purchased a silver version from my favorite dealer this morning.   This will be my first time ever hearing a 300B tube, and I am so pumped I can barely contain myself.  I am an avid tube roller, and can't wait to have some serious fun with this amp.  I plan to stick with the stock 300B's for a while just to get a base line.  As for the 6SN7's, I already have a ton of experience with those, and plan to roll them from the start, as I know new production 6SN7's can't hold a candle next to some of the better NOS ones.   Fun times ahead and more to come soon. . .


I've seen your tube rolling proclivities in the ZMF Pendant thread - a habit (addiction?) I also share. I will say though, at least on the mk1, the stock tubes were actually pretty good. Not the best, but not the worst. What was apparent though was some thought was put into the choices - they were clearly going for a warm and detailed sound, and selected based on that. There's real synergy in the stock roll. Hopefully it's no different for the mk. 2.

Congratulations, and welcome to the club! I bet you're gonna love the HA-300.


----------



## brokemember

@steve468 if I'm not mistaken you had used some other tubes to help with the hum/noise when using headphones such as the ZMF VCs, do you happen to have any specific/updated recommendations for people dealing with the hum issue?


----------



## steve468

brokemember said:


> @steve468 if I'm not mistaken you had used some other tubes to help with the hum/noise when using headphones such as the ZMF VCs, do you happen to have any specific/updated recommendations for people dealing with the hum issue?


I have a pair of Melz 1578 that were the quietest in this regard (and probably the my favourites overall). Stock tubes are pretty quiet too. But they still aren't completely silent. If I want a completely black background I use an attenuation cable from Garage 1217 that does the job well. No background noise whatsoever, with any sensitive headphone I have.


----------



## brokemember

Didn't know about the attenuation cable, do you feel it takes away from the sound a bit? I understand this question can be a bit hard to answer but whatever input you have would be helpful. My brain says that a cable like this would be 'ruining' the sound that I'm chasing with this amp... on the other hand can't really use my ZMF VCs right now and that is a pretty big bummer!



steve468 said:


> Stock tubes are pretty quiet too. But they still aren't completely silent



I take it that means that you didn't encounter the hum to the extent some other users have on this thread? Right now the way it is showing up on my end means that you can't listen to anything which has a 'quiet' part. If it was only apparent when nothing was playing then I could probably come to peace with it. 

As for the Melz 1578, is there any particular retailer you would recommend?

Thanks


----------



## steve468

brokemember said:


> Didn't know about the attenuation cable, do you feel it takes away from the sound a bit? I understand this question can be a bit hard to answer but whatever input you have would be helpful. My brain says that a cable like this would be 'ruining' the sound that I'm chasing with this amp... on the other hand can't really use my ZMF VCs right now and that is a pretty big bummer!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The cable probably affects the sound, but it's really hard to tell. A/B-ing is tough in this situation. I THINK the sound is a bit softer with it. I will say if the trade off is not using your VCs you're missing out!

I don't get any hum, what I have is more like a tape hiss. I get the same thing when I plug my headphones into my speaker amp. 

As for Melz, they are really hard to get right now. I used a great seller of the really good, hard to find Russian tubes, but he was in Ukraine, so... 😥


----------



## brokemember

steve468 said:


> I THINK the sound is a bit softer with it. I will say if the trade off is not using your VCs you're missing out!


My thoughts exactly!



steve468 said:


> As for Melz, they are really hard to get right now. I used a great seller of the really good, hard to find Russian tubes, but he was in Ukraine, so... 😥



I've noticed that with tubes in general (I joined tube gang very recently). If you don't mind I'll send you a link or two, just to get an idea of the tube to get.


----------



## steve468

brokemember said:


> My thoughts exactly!
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed that with tubes in general (I joined tube gang very recently). If you don't mind I'll send you a link or two, just to get an idea of the tube to get.


There's lots of great info all over Head-fi about which Melz are true 1578, including detailed pictures (try the 6sn7 thread). My understanding is that the defining features are: plates with several vertical holes (holed plates), metal support brackets at the top, as opposed to plastic, and rectangular mica with tabs as opposed to oval. To make things confusing, there are holed plates that are not 1578!

Right now I have a shiny black plate (earlier production) and one matte gray plate (1984 production, considered inferior). They work, but I'd love to get a pair that are closer in years and construction. That's how I know how hard to find they are!


----------



## brokemember

steve468 said:


> There's lots of great info all over Head-fi about which Melz are true 1578, including detailed pictures (try the 6sn7 thread). My understanding is that the defining features are: plates with several vertical holes (holed plates), metal support brackets at the top, as opposed to plastic, and rectangular mica with tabs as opposed to oval. To make things confusing, there are holed plates that are not 1578!
> 
> Right now I have a shiny black plate (earlier production) and one matte gray plate (1984 production, considered inferior). They work, but I'd love to get a pair that are closer in years and construction. That's how I know how hard to find they are!



Thanks. Guess I have to do some more reading — was secretly hoping that it would be as simple as going to ebay and buying from the first link. 

If you don't mind me asking, how much should I expect the tubes to cost (on average)?


----------



## steve468

brokemember said:


> Thanks. Guess I have to do some more reading — was secretly hoping that it would be as simple as going to ebay and buying from the first link.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, how much should I expect the tubes to cost (on average)?






This picture should be all you need to identify 1578s. As for how much to pay, I can't even find any for sale, so 🤷‍♂️. They've absolutely exploded, and the few I've spied for sale recently were among the most expensive 6sn7 variants right now. Sucks for us that were slow to jump on the train.


----------



## Wes S

steve468 said:


> This picture should be all you need to identify 1578s. As for how much to pay, I can't even find any for sale, so 🤷‍♂️. They've absolutely exploded, and the few I've spied for sale recently were among the most expensive 6sn7 variants right now. Sucks for us that were slow to jump on the train.


I have been buying hard to find NOS tubes for years, and it seems they show up in cycles.  There are more and more collectors (hoarders) selling their stashes as they get too old to hear properly or perhaps just need money, and I am sure more 1578's will show up sooner or later.  I think a few members in this thread have been buying them up left and right for a while now as well, and I imagine most of them have more than they need already and will quite buying them eventually.  So, I have a good feeling we will see some more in the future eventually.


----------



## brokemember

Wes S said:


> I have been buying hard to find NOS tubes for years, and it seems they show up in cycles.  There are more and more collectors (hoarders) selling their stashes as they get too old to hear properly or perhaps just need money, and I am sure more 1578's will show up sooner or later.  I think a few members in this thread have been buying them up left and right for a while now as well, and I imagine most of them have more than they need already and will quite buying them eventually.  So, I have a good feeling we will see some more in the future eventually.


@steve468 

At the risk of giving away how little I know of tubes....a ballpark number would really help. The only tubes I have ever priced were the WE 300B tubes and those were a lot simpler to figure out! 

For example, I see tubes listed on online any where from around $100 to mid $200s — and a couple in the $60s.


----------



## steve468

There you go, you have your ballpark. Honestly, I'm no expert - there are people here with MUCH bigger tube collections and knowledge bases for buying tubes. I've only been in it less than 2 years, and I certainly made mistakes at the beginning. I mostly regret buying too much of the tubes that would not end up being my favourites after I'd tried more.

Just keep reading and learning from the fine folks here on the internets, and you'll be fine. And don't pay more than you're comfortable with, many of the most expensive tubes are only a bit better, or even just different than the cheaper tubes.


----------



## brokemember

steve468 said:


> There you go, you have your ballpark.



I was starting to get a bit nervous. Did encounter some listings that were closer to $1k than $500 and that made the ballpark get a lot bigger!


----------



## Wes S

Curious if anyone knows, if 12AU7's with correct adapter (converts it to 6.3v) can be used instead of the 6SN7's?  I know these 2 tube types are often interchangeable with the correct adapter, and I just wanted to confirm it's ok in the HA300mk2.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 7, 2022)

HA300mk2 is in the house, and this amp is a beast in sound, size and weight.  I almost threw out my back picking up the box it is so heavy.  






I just started burning it in with the stock tubes, and I am definitely getting some tube noise with my VC's, but I was already expecting this from past experiences with cheap new production tubes, so not really a concern.  I am really looking forward to rolling in some better tubes once it's burned-in, and this amp looks gorgeous!  More to come. . .


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> HA300mk2 is in the house, and this amp is a beast in sound, size and weight.  I almost threw out my back picking up the box it is so heavy.
> 
> 
> 
> I just started burning it in with the stock tubes, and I am definitely getting some tube noise with my VC's, but I was expecting this from the cheap new production tubes, and I am really looking forward to rolling in some better tubes once it's burned-in.  This amp is flat out looks gorgeous!  More to come. . .


Have fun! looking forward to your tube rolling adventures with it.

I am currently enjoying my ken-rads in the meanwhile


----------



## Wes S

ARCXENOS said:


> Have fun! looking forward to your tube rolling adventures with it.
> 
> I am currently enjoying my ken-rads in the meanwhile


Nice!  I have a NOS pair of Ken-Rad VT231 Black Glass ready to roll once the amp is burned in, and I can't wait.


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> Curious if anyone knows, if 12AU7's with correct adapter (converts it to 6.3v) can be used instead of the 6SN7's?  I know these 2 tube types are often interchangeable with the correct adapter, and I just wanted to confirm it's ok in the HA300mk2.


I am curious also. I have mullard CV4003 that I love.  Please post it here if you can find those converters.


----------



## Erwinatm

ARCXENOS said:


> Have fun! looking forward to your tube rolling adventures with it.
> 
> I am currently enjoying my ken-rads in the meanwhile


What are yout thoughts Ken Rads with HA300-MK2 and Susvara? Try em with male vocals.😉


----------



## ARCXENOS (Aug 7, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> What are yout thoughts Ken Rads with HA300-MK2 and Susvara? Try em with male vocals.😉






Too many people from too many places rave about the bass for me to not try it... saw a pair of NOS staggered plate variant for auction and I knew I had to get it.

What everyone said about them were true, the vocals and bass on these with the susvara...is truly an experience. I don't know what I was missing until I tried them. The lows and mids are really well defined by these, its a night and day difference compared to the new production chinese tubes I enjoy (I still like them, but I am now certain they cannot hold a candle against the ken-rads). Overall I am pleased to be shocked at how good these are. As expected the susvara and hek does not get any hum from these, but an added additional benefit I got was the HD600 having less hum than my other old production tubes

I am currently trying to get a pair of vintage original construction MELZ 1578 and a pair of RCA VT-231 based on earlier reviews. If what others say about them is as true as what was said for the ken-rads, I would be eagerly waiting for them.

After those, I am seriously considering getting a backup pair of ken-rad vt-231, before prices get even more out of control. 300b rolling gets pushed back further and further!


----------



## dnd3241

It look great and I'm still struggling because the noice of tube and hum keep coming up from the user reviews.


----------



## Stefano Z.

Hi all! I am about to pull the trigger on this amp. The one thing holding me back is that I mainly listen to metal and hard rock (Avatar, in flames, five fingers, periphery, polyphia etc etc) and the only review about it says "sub bass" light (ok, slightly). So, I don't want an omnipresent sub bass if the songs doesn't call for it, but I do want to hear that "enveloping" effect of having a good sub bass supporting the song when this is present. E.g. I have both ebony verite open and lcd-x 2021 and, despite the mid bass bump of VO with univ leather pads, I feel the flat but more extended lcd-x is more wrapping me into the music, while VO is more drilling the music in me. So, to those who owns this amp, do you feel you are missing something (let's say compared to what envy seems to be), maybe even as a trade off, or simply this is not a thing at all? Please note that I am not really a tube roller and it would be ok to do a single targeted swap, but not a long expensive search for a certain sound quality. Thanks for any input that will come!


----------



## ThanatosVI

Stefano Z. said:


> Hi all! I am about to pull the trigger on this amp. The one thing holding me back is that I mainly listen to metal and hard rock (Avatar, in flames, five fingers, periphery, polyphia etc etc) and the only review about it says "sub bass" light (ok, slightly). So, I don't want an omnipresent sub bass if the songs doesn't call for it, but I do want to hear that "enveloping" effect of having a good sub bass supporting the song when this is present. E.g. I have both ebony verite open and lcd-x 2021 and, despite the mid bass bump of VO with univ leather pads, I feel the flat but more extended lcd-x is more wrapping me into the music, while VO is more drilling the music in me. So, to those who owns this amp, do you feel you are missing something (let's say compared to what envy seems to be), maybe even as a trade off, or simply this is not a thing at all? Please note that I am not really a tube roller and it would be ok to do a single targeted swap, but not a long expensive search for a certain sound quality. Thanks for any input that will come!


I don't think that it is a big deal, even if there is a slight subbass rolloff it's very minor. 

You probably could also counter it by using well extended tubes like Elrog or KR Audio,  however these cost so much that you could also go for the Envy at the same expense.

I'd consider it only a hindrance if your main music Genre would be Dubstep or something subbass focused.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 8, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> I am curious also. I have mullard CV4003 that I love.  Please post it here if you can find those converters.


I asked Cayin tech support, and they replied back saying it is not recommended, as the 12AU7 doesn't allow the HA300mk2 to run in it's optimal state.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 8, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Too many people from too many places rave about the bass for me to not try it... saw a pair of NOS staggered plate variant for auction and I knew I had to get it.
> 
> What everyone said about them were true, the vocals and bass on these with the susvara...is truly an experience. I don't know what I was missing until I tried them. The lows and mids are really well defined by these, its a night and day difference compared to the new production chinese tubes I enjoy (I still like them, but I am now certain they cannot hold a candle against the ken-rads). Overall I am pleased to be shocked at how good these are. As expected the susvara and hek does not get any hum from these, but an added additional benefit I got was the HD600 having less hum than my other old production tubes
> 
> ...


I concur on the Ken-Rad VT231 Black Glass, as they are a big step up from the stock new production Tung Sols.  I was getting annoyed with the noisy stock tubes while burning in the amp, so decided to roll one of my very early pairs (first version tall bottles with metal mica clips from 43'), and they are singing.

I also have a pair of Elrog ER 300B on the way as well, and should really have my HA300mk2 strutting it's stuff in full effect very soon. . .


----------



## Wes S (Aug 8, 2022)

Stefano Z. said:


> Hi all! I am about to pull the trigger on this amp. The one thing holding me back is that I mainly listen to metal and hard rock (Avatar, in flames, five fingers, periphery, polyphia etc etc) and the only review about it says "sub bass" light (ok, slightly). So, I don't want an omnipresent sub bass if the songs doesn't call for it, but I do want to hear that "enveloping" effect of having a good sub bass supporting the song when this is present. E.g. I have both ebony verite open and lcd-x 2021 and, despite the mid bass bump of VO with univ leather pads, I feel the flat but more extended lcd-x is more wrapping me into the music, while VO is more drilling the music in me. So, to those who owns this amp, do you feel you are missing something (let's say compared to what envy seems to be), maybe even as a trade off, or simply this is not a thing at all? Please note that I am not really a tube roller and it would be ok to do a single targeted swap, but not a long expensive search for a certain sound quality. Thanks for any input that will come!


I wouldn't worry about it one bit with the HA300mk2.  It may not dig as deep and slam quite like a SS or SS rectified amp, but it still slams and goes plenty deep.  There is also a really good middbass punch and texture that is very satisfying, but not overdone at all.  I listen to a lot of Electronica and bass driven music (I am a basshead at heart), and the HA300mk2 has been very satisfying in that area.  The mids are obviously the star of the show with a classic sounding SET amp, but the Cayin has some serious power on tap as well, and has a very explosive sound surely to satisfy a metal/hard rock fan.


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> I concur on the Ken-Rad VT231 Black Glass, as they are a big step up from the stock new production Tung Sols.  I was getting annoyed with the noisy stock tubes while burning in the amp, so decided to roll one of my very early pairs (first version tall bottles with metal mica clips from 43'), and they are singing.
> 
> I also have a pair of Erlog ER 300B on the way as well, and should really have my HA300mk2 strutting it's stuff in full effect very soon. . .





Can't wait to hear your impressions with Elrog 300B. You order the ER300B- Mo ?


----------



## Palyodgree (Aug 8, 2022)

Stefano Z. said:


> Hi all! I am about to pull the trigger on this amp. The one thing holding me back is that I mainly listen to metal and hard rock (Avatar, in flames, five fingers, periphery, polyphia etc etc) and the only review about it says "sub bass" light (ok, slightly). So, I don't want an omnipresent sub bass if the songs doesn't call for it, but I do want to hear that "enveloping" effect of having a good sub bass supporting the song when this is present. E.g. I have both ebony verite open and lcd-x 2021 and, despite the mid bass bump of VO with univ leather pads, I feel the flat but more extended lcd-x is more wrapping me into the music, while VO is more drilling the music in me. So, to those who owns this amp, do you feel you are missing something (let's say compared to what envy seems to be), maybe even as a trade off, or simply this is not a thing at all? Please note that I am not really a tube roller and it would be ok to do a single targeted swap, but not a long expensive search for a certain sound quality. Thanks for any input that will come!


I agree with Thanatos for me for examples experiencing Rammstein , Chesky’s fabulous live recording of Mozart’s Ave Verum too Home Free‘s Tim Foust 5 octave vocal range generally the human pitch I got an immediate sense of the HA-300‘s range into the lower octaves I wasn’t expecting the hard hitting solid state performance of course for me the HA -300 is satisfying in this region . This week I have a Ferrum OOR and Hypsos coming to listen to I am preparing for the purchase of the Susvaras though it will be interesting to listen to the combination of the musicality and deep octave region of my dac with the sole generating and bass slam of the Furrum amplifier using the HEKSE and borrowed Susvaras. Finally I have not rolled out the driver tubes I’m still using all the original factory tubes with my Mk1though someday I will though I don’t feel I’m missing anything so for now I’ll leave good enough alone .


----------



## Wes S (Aug 8, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Can't wait to hear your impressions with Elrog 300B. You order the ER300B- Mo ?


I am super pumped to hear them, and I went with the Standard ER 300B.  I have been chatting with one of my tube rolling buddies who has the standard Elrog's, and he says they are incredible, so I am really excited to give them a try.


----------



## dadracer2

Wes S said:


> I am super pumped to hear them, and I went with the Standard ER 300B.  I have been chatting with one of my tube rolling buddies who has the standard Erlog's, and he says they are incredible, so I am really excited to give them a try.


Cool and can you let us know if it reduces the power on your amp please?


----------



## Wes S

dadracer2 said:


> Cool and can you let us know if it reduces the power on your amp please?


Sure thing.


----------



## tdx

I know there are a lot of different opinions about what are considered the best 6SN7s for the HA300, but I wanted to see if there is any pair that is generally considered the golden standard? What's the consensus?


----------



## dadracer2

tdx said:


> I know there are a lot of different opinions about what are considered the best 6SN7s for the HA300, but I wanted to see if there is any pair that is generally considered the golden standard? What's the consensus?


This, yes this please. I have been trying to come to an answer for a while now. I gave us on NOS threads as there were more opinions than valves and then there seems to be a significant issue over fake versions. So I finally focussed on brand new options and have settled on PSVANE CV181-tii as they seem well regarded and are an upgrade option for some new amps now.
​ 
​


----------



## ThanatosVI

tdx said:


> I know there are a lot of different opinions about what are considered the best 6SN7s for the HA300, but I wanted to see if there is any pair that is generally considered the golden standard? What's the consensus?


Melz 1578, good luck finding originals tho.


----------



## tdx

ThanatosVI said:


> Melz 1578, good luck finding originals tho.


Thanks. That's the issue, not only is it hard to figure out which tubes are good, but then you also have to figure out what year/variation if they're NOS, and to top it all off you have to know which sellers are legit. It's a real headache...


----------



## tdx

dadracer2 said:


> This, yes this please. I have been trying to come to an answer for a while now. I gave us on NOS threads as there were more opinions than valves and then there seems to be a significant issue over fake versions. So I finally focussed on brand new options and have settled on PSVANE CV181-tii as they seem well regarded and are an upgrade option for some new amps now.
> ​
> ​


I agree if I cant figure out a way to get good NOS 6SN7s reliably, I might go to new production tubes. I've also heard good things about the PSVANEs, and also I've heard the Linlai Elites are really good too. So, if all else fails, I'll get either of these.


----------



## ThanatosVI

tdx said:


> I agree if I cant figure out a way to get good NOS 6SN7s reliably, I might go to new production tubes. I've also heard good things about the PSVANEs, and also I've heard the Linlai Elites are really good too. So, if all else fails, I'll get either of these.


Yeah NOS can be a real headache here.
New production doesn't offer much to choose from. As you stated 

- PSVane CV181-II
- Linlai Elite
- maybe the new Schiit LISST?
- maybe Sophia Electric bluebottle?


----------



## steve468

tdx said:


> Thanks. That's the issue, not only is it hard to figure out which tubes are good, but then you also have to figure out what year/variation if they're NOS, and to top it all off you have to know which sellers are legit. It's a real headache.


I've got a pair of Melz 6n8s on order. I have a single from the 50s that sounds pretty good in my Crackatwoa; if they work well in the HA-300, that would be a much more available and cheaper option to the disappearing 1578s.


tdx said:


> I agree if I cant figure out a way to get good NOS 6SN7s reliably, I might go to new production tubes. I've also heard good things about the PSVANEs, and also I've heard the Linlai Elites are really good too. So, if all else fails, I'll get either of these.


Please let us know if you try the Linlais! I've been eyeing the the low noise version from premiumvacuumtubes.com for awhile, but at $400 ish for a pair I can get a couple NOS pairs for the same price. I might just bite the bullet if the 6n8s don't work out.


----------



## lumdicks

tdx said:


> I know there are a lot of different opinions about what are considered the best 6SN7s for the HA300, but I wanted to see if there is any pair that is generally considered the golden standard? What's the consensus?


This is the answer if you are looking for the best.


----------



## Palyodgree

tdx said:


> I agree if I cant figure out a way to get good NOS 6SN7s reliably, I might go to new production tubes. I've also heard good things about the PSVANEs, and also I've heard the Linlai Elites are really good too. So, if all else fails, I'll get either of these.


Back in the late 1980s and 1990s the few sellers that advertised you had to phone of course . NOS preamplifier and phono grade 6sn7s and sot after metal base rectifiers like GZ34 including NOS WE 300B in the box were seemingly plentiful with the hording and spent tubes over the decades much has changed today .


----------



## steve468

This might be a long shot, but has anyone tried 6cg7 tubes? Smaller tubes are SOMETIMES quieter, so I've been wondering if they're a good option for those of use with hum/hiss. Also see above discussions of 6sn7 equivalents drying up/bankrupting the buyer.

The HA-300 doesn't seem to have too many options for rolling.


----------



## dadracer2

Palyodgree said:


> Back in the late 1980s and 1990s the few sellers that advertised you had to phone of course . NOS preamplifier and phono grade 6sn7s and sot after metal base rectifiers like GZ34 including NOS WE 300B in the box were seemingly plentiful with the hording and spent tubes over the decades much has changed today .


The prices are getting silly now for some NOS valves and consequently valves of "unknown authenticity" are appearing in increasing number as it is worth their while now to make money.  That and the uncertainty of what timescale they may last for has me concerned. I know you generally don't get much warranty on brand new valves but generally you are at least a bit protected if they go pop.


----------



## Palyodgree

dadracer2 said:


> The prices are getting silly now for some NOS valves and consequently valves of "unknown authenticity" are appearing in increasing number as it is worth their while now to make money.  That and the uncertainty of what timescale they may last for has me concerned. I know you generally don't get much warranty on brand new valves but generally you are at least a bit protected if they go pop.


Your not kidding however there will always be someone that will pay their asking price , One tube dealer in the US I have dealt with pre internet, Vintage Tube Services the owner Andy told me he himself had purchased that turned out no good to some being fake including with silk screening on the tubes themselves . The popularity of tube based components has exploded over the years and comes along with a parade of dishonest sellers however there are still treasures that can be found .


----------



## Wes S

lumdicks said:


> This is the answer if you are looking for the best.


That's one of them for sure.  I don't think there is really a "best" though, as synergy is key.


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> That's one of them for sure.  I don't think there is really a "best" though, as synergy is key.


Agree. 

There is no consensus on what best sound is, because each human is unique, the way our brains translate / perceive beautiful sound is different to each other.

However, the more you hear good sound system will raise your standard bar.

Just my 2 cents.😉


----------



## Wes S (Aug 9, 2022)

This amp is insane!  I only have about 40 hours of burn in, and this is the sound I have have been dreaming of for years.  The crazy deep/wide staging combined with holographic life-sized imaging, explosive impact, and details/nuances galore is so addictive, I have not gone to bed yet (it's 4am in my part of the world).

I can only imagine how crazy good this amp is going to sound once fully burned in and with the Elrog ER300B. . .


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> This amp is insane!  I only have about 40 hours of burn in, and this is the sound I have have been dreaming of for years.  The crazy deep/wide staging combined with holographic life-sized imaging, explosive impact, and details/nuances galore is so addictive, I have not gone to bed yet (it's 4am in my part of the world).
> 
> I can only imagine how crazy good this amp is going to sound once fully burned in and with the Elrog ER300B. . .


Welcome to the club Wes. 

The ability to convey liveliness of music from this amp is superb. If you like large classical music with fast pace, Crank it up man, truly amazing :




Part 1, 6 & 10


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> This amp is insane!  I only have about 40 hours of burn in, and this is the sound I have have been dreaming of for years.  The crazy deep/wide staging combined with holographic life-sized imaging, explosive impact, and details/nuances galore is so addictive, I have not gone to bed yet (it's 4am in my part of the world).
> 
> I can only imagine how crazy good this amp is going to sound once fully burned in and with the Elrog ER300B. . .


You're going to the moon with the ER300B. Try out the AN 4300E as well.


----------



## krude

Anyone tried Susvara and or 1266 TC with MK2? How's the headroom? Do you feel you need to push the amp at all?

I'm running HA6a and I'm fairly happy with it, but I do feel I'm always just under the power limit.

Also is there any hum or noise on Utopia if anyone tried? (Again another HA6a downside I got used to, but it would be nice to get a pitch black background on sensitive sets).


----------



## dadracer2

krude said:


> Anyone tried Susvara and or 1266 TC with MK2? How's the headroom? Do you feel you need to push the amp at all?
> 
> I'm running HA6a and I'm fairly happy with it, but I do feel I'm always just under the power limit.
> 
> Also is there any hum or noise on Utopia if anyone tried? (Again another HA6a downside I got used to, but it would be nice to get a pitch black background on sensitive sets).


I'd have thought there was plenty power on tap from the HA6A. Are you using SE or balanced headphone outputs? If you are using SE you will get more power from balanced. The same is true in the HA300 mk2 but you will be getting more output power than the HA6A on all settings.


----------



## krude

dadracer2 said:


> I'd have thought there was plenty power on tap from the HA6A. Are you using SE or balanced headphone outputs? If you are using SE you will get more power from balanced. The same is true in the HA300 mk2 but you will be getting more output power than the HA6A on all settings.


Yeah you'd think that looking at the numbers, but the numbers are just numbers sadly. There is enough, don't get me wrong, and sound from HA6a with different tubes is great, but you are always dancing around distortion when trying to get Susvara loud. I am experimenting with HA6a for over a year now and used it in all the ways imaginable 

That's why Im asking people for actual experience, bc the numbers don't really say much especially with tube amps.


----------



## dadracer2

krude said:


> Yeah you'd think that looking at the numbers, but the numbers are just numbers sadly. There is enough, don't get me wrong, and sound from HA6a with different tubes is great, but you are always dancing around distortion when trying to get Susvara loud. I am experimenting with HA6a for over a year now and used it in all the ways imaginable
> 
> That's why Im asking people for actual experience, bc the numbers don't really say much especially with tube amps.


I cannot help you in regard to the Susvara or Abyss as I don't have those particular headphones, but I do see people that are reviewing the HA300 and do have those and are not having any issue for insufficient power. Maybe best to go to a dealer with you headphones and then you can try it for yourself and make sure it's powerful enough.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Aug 11, 2022)

krude said:


> Yeah you'd think that looking at the numbers, but the numbers are just numbers sadly. There is enough, don't get me wrong, and sound from HA6a with different tubes is great, but you are always dancing around distortion when trying to get Susvara loud. I am experimenting with HA6a for over a year now and used it in all the ways imaginable
> 
> That's why Im asking people for actual experience, bc the numbers don't really say much especially with tube amps.


My Holo May (DAC) outputs 5.8 vrms balanced, personally I find 12'oclock of the XLR output + M impedance to be loud enough with my Susvara, powers everything else easily. IMO, it has enough headroom. And I do enjoy the resulting tonality, stock tubes or otherwise, in my subjective opinion.

 I have talked to another Susvara owner regarding this before, he comes from a power amp background (whereas I have only ever used headphone amps for headphones), and he didn't like the bass definition, so ymmv. For what its worth, I like it enough to waste money on tube rolling for fun  

For the utopia, I demoed it awhile back with the mk2, I don't really remember hearing any hum that was loud enough, but there was some environmental noise at the location, it could have been masked. Regardless, in both my setup (with the hd600) and the demo unit (with the utopia), I didn't really hear hum that is loud in my experience, but it is best you find a demo to confirm it yourself, don't discount the other negative experiences other users have, there might be other issues involved (qc? I don't know). In a roundabout way, the Susvara's insensitivity became a boon in this case...


----------



## krude

ARCXENOS said:


> My Holo May (DAC) outputs 5.8 vrms balanced, personally I find 12'oclock of the XLR output + M impedance to be loud enough with my Susvara, powers everything else easily. IMO, it has enough headroom. And I do enjoy the resulting tonality, stock tubes or otherwise, in my subjective opinion.
> 
> I have talked to another Susvara owner regarding this before, he comes from a power amp background (whereas I have only ever used headphone amps for headphones), and he didn't like the bass definition, so ymmv. For what its worth, I like it enough to waste money on tube rolling for fun
> 
> For the utopia, I demoed it awhile back with the mk2, I don't really remember hearing any hum that was loud enough, but there was some environmental noise at the location, it could have been masked. Regardless, in both my setup (with the hd600) and the demo unit (with the utopia), I didn't really hear hum that is loud in my experience, but it is best you find a demo to confirm it yourself, don't discount the other negative experiences other users have, there might be other issues involved (qc? I don't know). In a roundabout way, the Susvara's insensitivity became a boon in this case...


Nice one, thank you  glad that it takes the 5.8v well 👌 sounds like a nice chunk of headroom. The only thing that bothers me is people describing this amp as "bass light" or "sub bass light", but maybe this can be tweaked with rolling tubes. I know in HA6a it can make a huge differemce from sounding dry and safe to obscene amounts of bass and treble extension.


----------



## ARCXENOS

krude said:


> The only thing that bothers me is people describing this amp as "bass light" or "sub bass light"


In my opinion, if all they heard are the stock tungsol GTB, I can see it to a certain extent



krude said:


> I know in HA6a it can make a huge differemce from sounding dry and safe to obscene amounts of bass and treble extension.


This is me right now with the mk2, tube rolling really do make a difference, and I haven't even started changing the 300b yet (which I do note that the changes will not be as pronounced as 6sn7 rolling). Its also why I do value/enjoy reading other people's opinion on the different tubes, especially for the same amp, you might just find "the" combo for you. 

Of course, the ideal situation is you like the stock setup as well, so you at least have something to fallback on / act as reference, before going into the deep end


----------



## krude

ARCXENOS said:


> In my opinion, if all they heard are the stock tungsol GTB, I can see it to a certain extent
> 
> 
> This is me right now with the mk2, tube rolling really do make a difference, and I haven't even started changing the 300b yet (which I do note that the changes will not be as pronounced as 6sn7 rolling). Its also why I do value/enjoy reading other people's opinion on the different tubes, especially for the same amp, you might just find "the" combo for you.
> ...


Perfect, thank you for your help! I'll grab the amp later this year and share comparisons with the rest of my gear


----------



## mfgillia

krude said:


> Nice one, thank you  glad that it takes the 5.8v well 👌 sounds like a nice chunk of headroom. The only thing that bothers me is people describing this amp as "bass light" or "sub bass light", but maybe this can be tweaked with rolling tubes. I know in HA6a it can make a huge differemce from sounding dry and safe to obscene amounts of bass and treble extension.


From using headphones from Focals, Audeze and especially ZMFs, I find it hard to believe most will conclude the Cayin is "bass light" or "sub bass light" unless of course they mean in comparison to running their Susvaras with 1-2 AHB2 power amps. In that scenario, I would expect the bass to hit harder with the power amps than really any tube amp except maybe the Nautilus.


----------



## dadracer2

ARCXENOS said:


> In my opinion, if all they heard are the stock tungsol GTB, I can see it to a certain extent
> 
> 
> This is me right now with the mk2, tube rolling really do make a difference, and I haven't even started changing the 300b yet (which I do note that the changes will not be as pronounced as 6sn7 rolling). Its also why I do value/enjoy reading other people's opinion on the different tubes, especially for the same amp, you might just find "the" combo for you.
> ...


What 6SN7 did you decide upon to upgrade to please?


----------



## ARCXENOS

dadracer2 said:


> What 6SN7 did you decide upon to upgrade to please?


I have currently used the following :

- Ken-rad VT231 Black Glass, Staggered plates (1940s)
- PSVANE CV-181 Tii (New production)
- Linlai E-6SN7 (New production)
- Sylvania 6SN7 Bottom D foil getter with Flat black plate
- Raytheon 6SN7GTB
- Stock tungsols


I currently am planning on looking for the "original" MELZ 1578, but as of now I find the ken-rad to be the best I got. Also as suggested by someone in the thread, I have read that supposedly the mullard cv181s is top tier, but for the price it commands, I think it might be better to consider 300b rolling earlier  . Raytheon VT-231s are supposedly good as well, on my shortlist.


----------



## dadracer2

ARCXENOS said:


> I have currently used the following :
> 
> - Ken-rad VT231 Black Glass, Staggered plates (1940s)
> - PSVANE CV-181 Tii (New production)
> ...


What are your thoughts on the PSVANEs? I have them on order at the moment.


----------



## ARCXENOS

dadracer2 said:


> What are your thoughts on the PSVANEs? I have them on order at the moment.



I used to run a quad of them on another amp, and I like them as they are. As far as new production goes you will find very few possible "upgrades" compared to it. I think you might be able to find decent alternatives for the price they command, but they have this aggressive v profile that I do enjoy. If you don't want the hassle of finding the right seller of NOS stuff, I think the PSVANE CV-181 tii is a good choice.


----------



## Erwinatm

ARCXENOS said:


> I have currently used the following :
> 
> - Ken-rad VT231 Black Glass, Staggered plates (1940s)
> - PSVANE CV-181 Tii (New production)
> ...






Are these Kenrads same like yours?


----------



## dadracer2

ARCXENOS said:


> I used to run a quad of them on another amp, and I like them as they are. As far as new production goes you will find very few possible "upgrades" compared to it. I think you might be able to find decent alternatives for the price they command, but they have this aggressive v profile that I do enjoy. If you don't want the hassle of finding the right seller of NOS stuff, I think the PSVANE CV-181 tii is a good choice.


Thanks that sounds fair. Then you can have tried the Melz and so I will know what to chase on the NOS front.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Erwinatm said:


> Are these Kenrads same like yours?


looks similar to mine


----------



## Wes S (Aug 11, 2022)

Just rolled in the Elrog ER300B, and burn-in has begun.





I had a quick listen just to make sure there weren't any issues, and they are already a lot quieter than the stock Gold Lions.

More to come. . .


----------



## dadracer2

Wes S said:


> Just rolled in the Elrog ER300B, and burn-in has begun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m very interested to get your thoughts. Does the cage still fit with the Elrogs in situ?


----------



## mfgillia

dadracer2 said:


> I’m very interested to get your thoughts. Does the cage still fit with the Elrogs in situ?


Great question! Knew the Elrogs are taller than the Western Electric 300b specs but forgot to ask before ordering if the cage will still fit. 🤔


----------



## Wes S (Aug 12, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> I’m very interested to get your thoughts. Does the cage still fit with the Elrogs in situ?


Cage won't fit, but they sound so freaking insanely good I don't care.  I don't use the cage anyway so not a big deal for me.

Folks, the Elrog ER300B are sounding incredible and are worth looking into.  I only have a few hours on them, and they are miles above the stock Gold Lions already.  I have never heard (or felt) bass so perfect and intense as I am now.  If people think the HA300MK2 is a bit shy in the subbass, these tubes will change their mind in a heartbeat.


----------



## krude

Wes S said:


> Cage won't fit, but they sound so freaking insanely good I don't care.  I don't use the cage anyway.
> 
> Folks, the Elrog ER300B are sounding incredible and are worth looking into.


Can you give some description? Bass mids treble, mid centric, vshape, body / fullness, soft or harsh treble? I take it you use VCs?


----------



## justanut

Wes S said:


> Cage won't fit, but they sound so freaking insanely good I don't care.  I don't use the cage anyway so not a big deal for me.
> 
> Folks, the Elrog ER300B are sounding incredible and are worth looking into.  I only have a few hours on them, and they are miles above the stock Gold Lions already.  I have never heard (or felt) bass so perfect and intense as I am now.  If people think the HA300MK2 is a bit shy in the subbass, these tubes will change their mind in a heartbeat.


In comparison to the Goldlions please? These are very pricey expendables..


----------



## Sampajanna

TS VT99 with Woo adapters are superb driving HA300


----------



## Wes S

justanut said:


> In comparison to the Goldlions please? These are very pricey expendables..


More to come on this soon. . .


----------



## ARCXENOS

Sampajanna said:


> TS VT99 with Woo adapters are superb driving HA300


They look pretty interesting, are they electrically a 6sn7 replacement with the adapters? Or just close enough?


----------



## Sampajanna

I think with adapters they are close enough. I dont know the details  Aside from the much more expensive TS 6SN7, these were my favorite and for much cheaper. They are cler, full bodied and rich. Very nice sound


----------



## Wes S (Aug 13, 2022)

krude said:


> Can you give some description? Bass mids treble, mid centric, vshape, body / fullness, soft or harsh treble? I take it you use VCs?


Everything (bass, mids, treble. . .) sounds so right and balanced that nothing negative stands out at all.  Compared to the stock Gold Lions, the transparency/detail is increased substantially, the bass digs deeper and is tighter and more textured and powerful, the mids (vocals to die for) come forward just a tad but don't sound forced at all, and the highs soar without any harshness what so ever.  The staging is just right as well and it's not too open or too forward, and I feel like I can hear further and deeper into the recording and much more detail and nuances are coming through.  The sound is so well balanced, that I can really crank the volume without any fatigue and the louder I go the more lifelike it sounds.  The stock Gold Lions basically let you get a little taste of the what this amp can do, and then the Elrogs let it be all that it can be.  There is a perfect balance of organic warmth, weight and punch, with detail, speed and transparency and music sounds so lifelike with these ER's it's nuts.  Also, there is really good energy and liveliness and the notes have some serious pop and weight to them, of which really makes recordings sound as if they are being performed live and I am there to witness it.   I really can't imagine any owner of the HA300mk2 not loving the ER300B, and they get a big rec from me.

I am using my VC's by the way, and I think they are a match made in heaven with the HA300mk2 and a pair of ER300B's.

Happy Listening!


----------



## krude

Wes S said:


> Everything (bass, mids, treble. . .) sounds so right and balanced that nothing negative stands out at all.  Compared to the stock Gold Lions, the transparency/detail is increased substantially, the bass digs deeper and is tighter and more textured and powerful, the mids (vocals to die for) come forward just a tad but don't sound forced at all, and the highs soar without any harshness what so ever.  The staging is just right as well and it's not too open or too forward, and I feel like I can hear further and deeper into the recording and much more detail and nuances are coming through.  The sound is so well balanced, that I can really crank the volume without any fatigue and the louder I go the more lifelike it sounds.  The stock Gold Lions basically let you get a little taste of the what this amp can do, and then the Elrogs let it be all that it can be.  There is a perfect balance of organic warmth, weight and punch, with detail, speed and transparency and music sounds so lifelike with these ER's it's nuts.  Also, there is really good energy and liveliness and the notes have some serious pop and weight to them, of which really makes recordings sound as if they are being performed live and I am there to witness it.   I really can't imagine any owner of the HA300mk2 not loving the ER300B, and they get a big rec from me.
> 
> I am using my VC's by the way, and I think they are a match made in heaven with the HA300mk2 and a pair of ER300B's.
> 
> Happy Listening!


Wow ok, thank you


----------



## Wes S (Aug 13, 2022)

So, I have my power tubes dialed in now with the ER300B and I am pretty happy with the Ken-Rad VT231 in the driver slots for now, so it's time to roll some rectifiers.

First up is a quad of GE. 






More to come. . .


----------



## dadracer2

Wes S said:


> Everything (bass, mids, treble. . .) sounds so right and balanced that nothing negative stands out at all.  Compared to the stock Gold Lions, the transparency/detail is increased substantially, the bass digs deeper and is tighter and more textured and powerful, the mids (vocals to die for) come forward just a tad but don't sound forced at all, and the highs soar without any harshness what so ever.  The staging is just right as well and it's not too open or too forward, and I feel like I can hear further and deeper into the recording and much more detail and nuances are coming through.  The sound is so well balanced, that I can really crank the volume without any fatigue and the louder I go the more lifelike it sounds.  The stock Gold Lions basically let you get a little taste of the what this amp can do, and then the Elrogs let it be all that it can be.  There is a perfect balance of organic warmth, weight and punch, with detail, speed and transparency and music sounds so lifelike with these ER's it's nuts.  Also, there is really good energy and liveliness and the notes have some serious pop and weight to them, of which really makes recordings sound as if they are being performed live and I am there to witness it.   I really can't imagine any owner of the HA300mk2 not loving the ER300B, and they get a big rec from me.
> 
> I am using my VC's by the way, and I think they are a match made in heaven with the HA300mk2 and a pair of ER300B's.
> 
> Happy Listening!


Do you notice a difference in volume between the Elrogs and GLs? Some folks have suggested there is likely to be reduced power available via the Elrogs due to their spec and difference to a classic 300B spec.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 13, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> Do you notice a difference in volume between the Elrogs and GLs? Some folks have suggested there is likely to be reduced power available via the Elrogs due to their spec and difference to a classic 300B spec.


Actually I did but just slightly, and I only listen one or two clicks higher on the volume with ER300B.  I believe the Elrog's have a bit lower gain than a typical 300B, so that makes sense.  The dynamics on the other hand increased substantially.


----------



## Palyodgree

Wes S said:


> Everything (bass, mids, treble. . .) sounds so right and balanced that nothing negative stands out at all.  Compared to the stock Gold Lions, the transparency/detail is increased substantially, the bass digs deeper and is tighter and more textured and powerful, the mids (vocals to die for) come forward just a tad but don't sound forced at all, and the highs soar without any harshness what so ever.  The staging is just right as well and it's not too open or too forward, and I feel like I can hear further and deeper into the recording and much more detail and nuances are coming through.  The sound is so well balanced, that I can really crank the volume without any fatigue and the louder I go the more lifelike it sounds.  The stock Gold Lions basically let you get a little taste of the what this amp can do, and then the Elrogs let it be all that it can be.  There is a perfect balance of organic warmth, weight and punch, with detail, speed and transparency and music sounds so lifelike with these ER's it's nuts.  Also, there is really good energy and liveliness and the notes have some serious pop and weight to them, of which really makes recordings sound as if they are being performed live and I am there to witness it.   I really can't imagine any owner of the HA300mk2 not loving the ER300B, and they get a big rec from me.
> 
> I am using my VC's by the way, and I think they are a match made in heaven with the HA300mk2 and a pair of ER300B's.
> 
> Happy Listening!


What you have said about the ER including others on other forums I’m going to have to get me a pair and swap out the driver tubes , sounds like a whole lot of fun to me ,,


----------



## brokemember

Anyone try the the CV181-TII tubes as a replacement for the 6SN7?

Specifically these ones.


----------



## brokemember

dadracer2 said:


> This, yes this please. I have been trying to come to an answer for a while now. I gave us on NOS threads as there were more opinions than valves and then there seems to be a significant issue over fake versions. So I finally focussed on brand new options and have settled on PSVANE CV181-tii as they seem well regarded and are an upgrade option for some new amps now.
> ​
> ​


How are you finding the CV181-tII?

Especially in regards to the noise floor?


----------



## dadracer2

brokemember said:


> How are you finding the CV181-tII?
> 
> Especially in regards to the noise floor?


Still waiting for them to arrive! Brexit what were they thinking?????


----------



## UntilThen

@Wes S , is the HA300 Mk2 quiet with no music playing? and what headphones have you tried with it?


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> So, I have my power tubes dialed in now with the ER300B and I am pretty happy with the Ken-Rad VT231 in the driver slots for now, so it's time to roll some rectifiers.
> 
> First up is a quad of GE.
> 
> ...



I've been told the rectifiers are the ones that have the least impact among the 3 types, do us know if there is a noticeable change to your ears!


----------



## Wes S (Aug 14, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> I've been told the rectifiers are the ones that have the least impact among the 3 types, do us know if there is a noticeable change to your ears!


Having rolled through several sets yesterday and another today, I can assure you rolling rectifiers has an impact on the sound.  It's definitely not quite as drastic though as rolling the driver or power tubes, but it still has enough of an impact to make a noticeable difference to me.  I experienced this same thing with my last amp (Pendant SE) as well, and I have learned I like to roll rectifiers after I have my power and driver tubes dialed in and have found they are great for tweaking/fine tuning the final sound.  The noise floor, bass, and staging are the areas I feel are most affected by rolling the rectifiers, and the fact that the HA300mk2 uses 4 of them (that don't have to be matched) really gives you a ton of options to fine tune the sound.  I currently have a pair of 60's Tung Sol 22DE4 in V5 & V6 spots, and then I have a pair of 60's Raytheon (Made in Japan) 22DE4 in the V7 & V8 spots, and I am getting a blend of the the two "house sounds" and it's sounding pretty damn good right now.  Compared to the stock RCA's, I am getting a bit more forwardness with better dynamics and punch from the Tung Sol, and then a bit more speed and clarity as well with the Raytheon's mixed in.  I also rolled in a quad of Sylvania 22DE4 yesterday, and they sounded great too, and had that classic Sylvania "romantic house sound", with good balance top to bottom with a little warmth down low and airy highs and really good stage expansion.  So far, I found the stock RCA 22DE4 to be well balanced and open sounding and a great reference point, but also a bit noisier than my other NOS/OS 22DE4's, and I highly recommend giving the rectifier rolling a try.  There aren't a ton of options to buy with the 22DE4's at the moment (I bought most of them ), but I am sure more will pop up soon, and the cool thing is they are always super cheap.  I have not paid more than $20 bucks a tube, and most go for half of that.

I currently have some Sylvania, Raytheon, Tung Sol, RCA, G.E., and have a quad of Sicte 22DE4 on the way, and I am looking forward to rolling them all and finding a combo that really sings. I will report back on the sound sigs of each after I have rolled them all and have a good feel for how they each affect the sound.

More to come. . .


----------



## Wes S (Aug 14, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> @Wes S , is the HA300 Mk2 quiet with no music playing? and what headphones have you tried with it?


I have only used my VC's, and there is a slight hum (varies depending on the tubes) when no music is playing.  The VC's are very good at picking up noise if it's there, and I would imagine with less sensitive/harder to drive planars there would be no noise whatsoever.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 14, 2022)

The current tube combo I have landed on this morning is sounding incredible with my VC's.  The rolling of the rectifiers took things to yet another level, and the detail and nuances coming through is even more stunning than before.  This amp has so much potential and once you start tube rolling it really starts to strut it's stuff.






Driver - Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass
Power - Elrog ER300B
Rectifier - Tung Sol (V5,V6) & Raytheon (V7,V8)

Clarity, impact and presence are all in full effect, and I am left wanting nothing but more time to listen.


----------



## krude

Wes S said:


> The current tube combo I have landed on this morning is sounding incredible with my VC's.  The rolling of the rectifiers took things to yet another level, and the detail and nuances coming through is even more stunning than before.  This amp has so much potential and once you start tube rolling it really starts to strut it's stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lush af ❤️❤️❤️🍻


----------



## UntilThen

Wes S said:


> I have only used my VC's, and there is a slight hum (varies depending on the tubes) when no music is playing.  The VC's are very good at picking up noise if it's there, and I would imagine with less sensitive/harder to drive planars there would be no noise whatsoever.



Thanks.


----------



## brokemember (Aug 14, 2022)

dadracer2 said:


> Still waiting for them to arrive! Brexit what were they thinking?????


They weren't! 

It it's any use while you are waiting, I can confirm that the CV181-tII sound better than the stock tubes and also lower the noise floor decently. Definitely worth switching out the stock ones with these.


----------



## tdx

Got two new sets of tubes for my Mk2: a pair of Takatsukis TA-300B and some Linlai Elites E-6SN7. Both are obviously a nice improvement over stock tubes although I have to admit this is prob the only amp where I thought stock tubes were more than just ok. I'm feeding the Cayin from a Holo Spring 3 KTE with preamp and for headphones  I'm using Susvaras.

The Linlais have way more extension in both directions, and bring added definition, soundstage and definitely improve the bass. Whereas with stock tubes the bass was strong but not very well defined, with the Linlais it is super sculpted and it's easy to discern all bass levels and nuances. For someone like me who doesn't want to deal with the complexities of getting NOS, these are a great buy.

The Takas are also extremely nice and bring most of the above attributes, though the effect is not as pronounced as the 6SN7s, as is to be expected. The most obvious differences are a larger and better defined soundstage, also better bass, and a more pronounced treble, which I'm actually not sure I prefer. Don't get me wrong, these are amazing tubes and they are deserving of their large price, but I purchased this amp to get an impactful yet non fatiguing SET tube sound, and while the Takas add to the impactful part, they also take away from the effortlessness that is present with the stock tubes. I will give these some more time to settle and for my brain to get used to them, as I do like them overall. But if I can't get used to their relative brightness I might have to let them go and try the PSVANE Acmes, which from what I read are more in line with what I'm looking for.

Oh and both fit with the cage on, as per the pictures below.

Cheers!


----------



## mfgillia

Wes S said:


> I have only used my VC's, and there is a slight hum (varies depending on the tubes) when no music is playing.  The VC's are very good at picking up noise if it's there, and I would imagine with less sensitive/harder to drive planars there would be no noise whatsoever.


Discovering this seems to be highly dependent on the DAC. With my old Topping D30pro the VCs had just a tad bit of noise, which didn't increase while turning the volume knob up and was only discernible in very quiet environments. 

Now with the Spring 3 though there's noticably more noise, which does increase in-line with the volume knob. Still generally unnoticeable even when playing music at fairly high volumes. With the Spring 3 on mute though there's zero noise even with the volume set to max.


----------



## Palyodgree

mfgillia said:


> Discovering this seems to be highly dependent on the DAC. With my old Topping D30pro the VCs had just a tad bit of noise, which didn't increase while turning the volume knob up and was only discernible in very quiet environments.
> 
> Now with the Spring 3 though there's noticably more noise, which does increase in-line with the volume knob. Still generally unnoticeable even when playing music at fairly high volumes. With the Spring 3 on mute though there's zero noise even with the volume set to max.


Could possibly be production variations from one amp to another, while rolling dacs recently I experienced no hum with Holo Audio May KTE, Denafrips terminator, Rockna WaveDream XLR and Mearson Dac .


----------



## Palyodgree

I have my eye on a pair of these from GrantFidelity select for about 500 bucks a pair and I’ll check out the black glass Kenrads , sounds like fun to me .


----------



## mfgillia

Palyodgree said:


> Could possibly be production variations from one amp to another, while rolling dacs recently I experienced no hum with Holo Audio May KTE, Denafrips terminator, Rockna WaveDream XLR and Mearson Dac .


This is with Verite Closed or other headphones? With my Atriums there's essentially no noise using either the Topping or Spring 3.


----------



## llamaluv

I got some Ken Rads recently and have about 120 hours on them, and can confirm they're the real deal. 

With this amp, I've toyed around with a number of just-okay 6SN7's (PSVane Tii Premium Grade, Sylvania 6SN7WGT, Sylvania 6SN7GT, RCAs, ~$100 Tung Sols), and to be honest, none of them really distinguished themselves in relation to the others in any important way. But the Ken Rads are a cut above.  

Better bass, better speed, more authority. Also, less bloomy in the upper-mids, which is a good thing in my system. My only regret is that I've been wasting my time (relatively speaking) doing my listening using these other just-okay tubes for so long. The Ken Rads are not the final word on depth though, and not romantic by any means, but the clear winner over the other stuff I have.

I also got a matched pair of Melz 6H8C off of Ebay recently, just the "regular" ones I would guess, and probably for too much money, but they're still burning in. So far, they have a more romantic sound, really good depth in the midrange, but nothing great in the bass at the moment.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 17, 2022)

mfgillia said:


> Discovering this seems to be highly dependent on the DAC. With my old Topping D30pro the VCs had just a tad bit of noise, which didn't increase while turning the volume knob up and was only discernible in very quiet environments.
> 
> Now with the Spring 3 though there's noticably more noise, which does increase in-line with the volume knob. Still generally unnoticeable even when playing music at fairly high volumes. With the Spring 3 on mute though there's zero noise even with the volume set to max.


I actually rolled some more tubes and my noise is almost completely gone, and I imagine with more burn-in it will be silent soon enough.  Interesting stuff with the different DAC's, and I am running balanced in from my Sonnet Morpheus and balanced out with my VC's, and the noise I am hearing doesn't increase or decrease with volume.  What I am hearing is definitely tube noise, and I think a big part of why we are hearing about some with noise and other's without, is mostly because of the tubes.  I doubt Cayin is checking all the stock tubes for noise, so some owners might just get lucky and start out with quiet tubes.  I experienced the exact same thing with my last amp (Pendant SE), and I actually got that amp silent as can be with rolling some good NOS tubes.  Of course is took a few rolls to find the quietest combo in my Pendant, but I did get there eventually and will get there with my HA300mk2 soon enough.

On another note, I just rolled in a quad of NOS G.E. 22DE4 from the 70's and they are rocking.   The word visceral is the first word the comes to mind. . .


----------



## llamaluv

Wes S said:


> On another note, I just rolled in a quad of NOS G.E. 22DE4 from the 70's and they are rocking.  The word visceral is the first word the comes to mind. . .


That's really great how you've been finding success rolling the rectifiers. I could be wrong but you may be the first person in this thread to post any impressions of alternative 22DE4s.


----------



## Wes S

llamaluv said:


> That's really great how you've been finding success rolling the rectifiers. I could be wrong but you may be the first person in this thread to post any impressions of alternative 22DE4s.


Rolling rectifiers is always a great way to tweak the sound on a SET amp such as the HA300MK2.  I am actually kind of shocked more owners of the HA300 aren't aware of this.  The really cool thing with the HA300 is that it uses four tubes that don't have to be matched, and there are a ton of combos one could try.  

The quad of NOS G.E. have been my favorite so far, and the dynamics, transparency and holographic staging are all in full effect.  I highly recommend rolling some rectifiers and they can be found quite cheap if you are diligent in your search, and can make quite a difference depending on which ones you roll.

Happy Hunting, Rolling, and Listening.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Wes S said:


> Rolling rectifiers is always a great way to tweak the sound on a SET amp such as the HA300MK2.  I am actually kind of shocked more owners of the HA300 aren't aware of this.  The really cool thing with the HA300 is that it uses four tubes that don't have to be matched, and there are a ton of combos one could try.
> 
> The quad of NOS G.E. have been my favorite so far, and the dynamics, transparency and holographic staging are all in full effect.  I highly recommend rolling some rectifiers and they can be found quite cheap if you are diligent in your search, and can make quite a difference depending on which ones you roll.
> 
> Happy Hunting, Rolling, and Listening.


22DE4s are so hard to find tho, my trusted dealers don't have a single one of them.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> Rolling rectifiers is always a great way to tweak the sound on a SET amp such as the HA300MK2.  I am actually kind of shocked more owners of the HA300 aren't aware of this.  The really cool thing with the HA300 is that it uses four tubes that don't have to be matched, and there are a ton of combos one could try.
> 
> The quad of NOS G.E. have been my favorite so far, and the dynamics, transparency and holographic staging are all in full effect.  I highly recommend rolling some rectifiers and they can be found quite cheap if you are diligent in your search, and can make quite a difference depending on which ones you roll.
> 
> Happy Hunting, Rolling, and Listening.



I'll probably dabble on the rectifiers once I am done with 6SN7 (maybe soon!) and 300b, I think most would prefer to roll the driver first for maximum sound changes. It will be interesting to find out how different rectifiers will change the sound signature. 



ThanatosVI said:


> 22DE4s are so hard to find tho, my trusted dealers don't have a single one of them.


My biggest issue too, the local dealers I typically go to don't stock any of them, I'll probably wait and see if any appear


----------



## justanut

ThanatosVI said:


> 22DE4s are so hard to find tho, my trusted dealers don't have a single one of them.


I could only buy 4 from Cayin as backups for my next decade of usage... couldn't find any other makes anywhere else..


----------



## Wes S (Aug 18, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> 22DE4s are so hard to find tho, my trusted dealers don't have a single one of them.


I have found quite a few, and have about 6 different quads all together.  They can be found if you are diligent, but I think I actually bought most that were currently available this past couple of weeks.  Sorry for that, but I am sure more will pop up sooner or later.


----------



## Erwinatm (Aug 19, 2022)

Just put in place 3 FE Ceraball  feet underneath the amp block, guess what, remarkably reduces the hum. 

With Atrium almost no hum at all. Slightly hum still audible with VC. All set in medium gain, XLR input, KenRad VT231.

 It reminds me on Cayin video with the designer of  HA-300B Mk2, how he put so much effort on vibration damping system on the Mk2.

Try it.


----------



## Wes S

Erwinatm said:


> Just put in place 3 FE Ceraball  feet underneath the amp block, guess what, remarkably reduces the hum.
> 
> With Atrium almost no hum at all. Slightly hum still audible with VC. All set in medium gain, XLR input, KenRad VT231.
> 
> ...


Nice and thanks for sharing!  I have watched that video several times, and you can really get a sense for the passion behind this amazing amp.

I am going to have to give those feet a try.


----------



## tinariwen

Hey guys,

I’ve been offered a really good deal on the ha-300mk2, and it’ll be for the Susvaras.

My question is, do any of you use this amp with the Susvaras, and if so, how do you find it? I’ve currently got the IfI iCAN Pro amp, which puts out a crap load of power and sounds great, but I’m a sucker for tubes. I previously owned the HA-6A, too, and love Cayins amps.

My only worry is the usual one - is it enough? I can’t trial it either, unfortunately, so it’s a bit of a blind leap. Figured I’d check with you guys first, just to be on the safe side.


----------



## ARCXENOS

I found a reputable local dealer with a pair of 1950s Mullard ECC32 for less than the typical online asking price (still pretty expensive, just a chunk less atrocious than ebay), my first impression (4 hours~ in) is that the treble, perceived instrument separation and clarity are top notched, they are definitely a level above than what I have heard from my other pairs. While not at the kenrad vt-231 level of bass in my opinion, it has a good amount of it, with a very pleasant tonality resulting from it.



lumdicks said:


> If you have chance, get a pair of NOS Mullard CV181 / ECC32 and you will be surprised by how much it is better than the Psvane one.


Its months later since this was posted, but its the first thing I thought of when I heard the first cymbal crash, you were right

I am not sure if I can recommend these at the current online prices the sellers are commanding, as especially a good chunk of them are approaching some of the higher end 300B prices, but if you can find a pair that isn't too atrociously priced, I would definitely say go for it!


----------



## ARCXENOS

tinariwen said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I’ve been offered a really good deal on the ha-300mk2, and it’ll be for the Susvaras.
> 
> ...



I am using the Susvara with it right now, but I have never used a speaker amp with it, so my opinion is strictly from a HPA only user's point of view.

I would say yes, there is enough power, both quality and quantity is there. If all you know is how the Susvara performs on a HPA, and you like tubes, in my opinion, you will probably like the HA-300B

 Extra benefit from the Susvara being so insensitive, all that talk of hissing you read in the thread basically doesn't apply to the Susvara


----------



## lumdicks (Aug 19, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> I found a reputable local dealer with a pair of 1950s Mullard ECC32 for less than the typical online asking price (still pretty expensive, just a chunk less atrocious than ebay), my first impression (4 hours~ in) is that the treble, perceived instrument separation and clarity are top notched, they are definitely a level above than what I have heard from my other pairs. While not at the kenrad vt-231 level of bass in my opinion, it has a good amount of it, with a very pleasant tonality resulting from it.
> 
> 
> Its months later since this was posted, but its the first thing I thought of when I heard the first cymbal crash, you were right
> ...


Congrats and enjoy. You will soon be looking for a nice pair of 300B and in my opinion, The Takatsuki TA-300B or Elrog 300B should be a good choice,

I am sure you will agree with me once again.


----------



## Wes S

Just checking in to say, I rolled in some different driver tubes this morning, and the noise is completely gone with my VC's.    Just as I suspected, and if you are getting some noise, the driver tubes seem to have the biggest effect.

Back to musical bliss. . .


----------



## brokemember

Wes S said:


> Just checking in to say, I rolled in some different driver tubes this morning, and the noise is completely gone with my VC's.    Just as I suspected, and if you are getting some noise, the driver tubes seem to have the biggest effect.
> 
> Back to musical bliss. . .


Which tubes were the ones that resolved this?


----------



## Erwinatm

ARCXENOS said:


> I found a reputable local dealer with a pair of 1950s Mullard ECC32 for less than the typical online asking price (still pretty expensive, just a chunk less atrocious than ebay), my first impression (4 hours~ in) is that the treble, perceived instrument separation and clarity are top notched, they are definitely a level above than what I have heard from my other pairs. While not at the kenrad vt-231 level of bass in my opinion, it has a good amount of it, with a very pleasant tonality resulting from it.
> 
> 
> Its months later since this was posted, but its the first thing I thought of when I heard the first cymbal crash, you were right
> ...


Is the gain higher than 6SN7? I have Mulllard ECC33 that i felt too high gain. I'm afraid they will fry the transformer.


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> Just checking in to say, I rolled in some different driver tubes this morning, and the noise is completely gone with my VC's.    Just as I suspected, and if you are getting some noise, the driver tubes seem to have the biggest effect.
> 
> Back to musical bliss. . .


Yes, which one are your favs? kenrad?


----------



## ARCXENOS

Erwinatm said:


> Is the gain higher than 6SN7? I have Mulllard ECC33 that i felt too high gain. I'm afraid they will fry the transformer.


ECC32 is not a direct substituion, its indeed not good to use for amps that is only taking 6sn7, however according to the literature, our amp can take it



I imagine this to be proof-read, it would be a disasterous mistake on Cayin's end if it wasn't!

After 5 hours my transformer isn't up in smoke so I guess it should be correct! That said ECC33 is not listed for you, so I can't directly comment, but I have read from more experienced users that it should be ok, but I do not know for sure


----------



## Erwinatm

ARCXENOS said:


> ECC32 is not a direct substituion, its indeed not good to use for amps that is only taking 6sn7, however according to the literature, our amp can take it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I read that too that's why I tried ECC33 which some people say can replace ECC32. Those ECC33 are meant for my old other amp.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 19, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Yes, which one are your favs? kenrad?


The Ken-Rad's have been benched for the foreseeable future, and I am currently running a pair of NOS Fivre and they are silent and I am really liking what I am hearing.





As for my favs, I have another pair of unique and rare one's that I am not quite ready to disclose the name of yet, as I need to secure a pair of backups before I let the cat out of the bag, and they are hands down the best 6SN7 I have ever heard.  Granted I have not heard the B65 or Melz, but I have heard all the rest in the past and from what I have read, I am willing to bet this tube can hang with them, and might even surpass them all for transparency and impact.  More to come on this soon as my backup pair is on it's way, and once I make sure they are quiet and good tubes, I will gladly share which tube it is.  I have never heard such a lifelike sound before, and the bass hits so hard and tight it's startling at times, and the detail and texture is through the roof, and the staging is very holographic and deep.  Talk about an experience, every song sounds as if it's being performed live and I am right there to witness it no matter the genre.


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> The Ken-Rad's have been benched for the foreseeable future, and I am currently running a pair of NOS Fivre and they are silent and I am really liking what I am hearing.
> 
> 
> 
> As for my favs, I have another pair of unique and rare one's that I am not quite ready to disclose the name of yet, as I need to secure a pair of backups before I let the cat out of the bag, and they are hands down the best 6SN7 I have ever heard.  Granted I have not heard the B65 or Melz, but I have heard all the rest in the past and from what I have read, I am willing to bet this tube can hang with them, and might even surpass them all for transparency and impact.  More to come on this soon as my backup pair is on it's way, and once I make sure they are quiet and good tubes, I will gladly share which tube it is.  I have never heard such a lifelike sound before, and the bass hits so hard and tight it's startling at times, and the detail and texture is through the roof, and the staging is very holographic and deep.  Talk about an experience, every song sounds as if it's being performed live and I am right there to witness it no matter the genre.


OMG, mouthwatering....😍


----------



## incredulousity

There are a lot of good amps needing 6SN7 drivers out currently. There really is a market for one or two of the good tube makers to make a seriously world class version. In the 300B crowd, people are happy to pay $800-1800 for the best power tubes per pair. This crowd would pay $4-500 per pair for correspondingly good driver tubes, if the same companies could and would make them.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Aug 19, 2022)

Wes S said:


> Just checking in to say, I rolled in some different driver tubes this morning, and the noise is completely gone with my VC's.    Just as I suspected, and if you are getting some noise, the driver tubes seem to have the biggest effect.
> 
> Back to musical bliss. . .



I have been doing some testing on my HD600 and z1r, and I found your statement to be agreeable in my setup. They were all relatively minute (IMO, compared to other tube amps I have used before) from the start, but there was a degree of difference.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 27, 2022)

.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 27, 2022)

Got to love that glow.


----------



## Erwinatm

L





Wes S said:


> So, my backups of a very special tube got delivered early and ended up showing up yesterday afternoon, and it's time to let the cat out of the bag.  I have found a very special driver tube, that is hands down the best 6SN7 I have ever heard.  Go figure the tube was made in Germany, and it sounds a lot like the Elrog's.
> 
> Say hello to the RFT 6SN7 from the 50's.
> 
> ...


Lucky guy...


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> I have read countless post about the inconsistencies with Russian tubes, and how they often have quality control issues (mainly bad soldering of pins)


I am praying mine that is stuck on a boat from ukraine aren't one of them, but from the 6sn7 thread, this appears to be true. Happy for you that the RFT is your cup of tea



Wes S said:


> Endgame tube combo, for my endgame tube amp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Everytime I look at the elrog and read more about it, I start to think about it a little more..


----------



## carbonF1

Wes S said:


> Endgame tube combo, for my endgame tube amp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those Elrog’s look right at home in this amp. I could look at this all day. I’m sure the sound is an added bonus


----------



## jonathan c

carbonF1 said:


> Those Elrog’s look right at home in this amp. I could look at this all day. I’m sure the sound is an added bonus


What?!….You are supposed to listen to this?!😳🤪🤣…


----------



## tinariwen

I seem to remember one of the other Cayin Tube Headphone Amps (maybe the ha-6a) being designed to preferably receive a 2V signal from the DAC.

Is that the case for the ha-300mk2?


----------



## ARCXENOS

tinariwen said:


> I seem to remember one of the other Cayin Tube Headphone Amps (maybe the ha-6a) being designed to preferably receive a 2V signal from the DAC.
> 
> Is that the case for the ha-300mk2?


If I remember correctly, according to my dealer, the mk2 is officially rated for 4vrms, but when tested, I was told that up to 6vrms there was no issue on my dealer's end. I found it to be true with my Holo May's 5.8vrms output, no clipping perceived at my regular listening volumes


----------



## mfgillia

tinariwen said:


> I seem to remember one of the other Cayin Tube Headphone Amps (maybe the ha-6a) being designed to preferably receive a 2V signal from the DAC.
> 
> Is that the case for the ha-300mk2?


Some owners have claimed better performance using higher voltages with this amp. For example, in Zach's video highlighting dCS LINA he preferred setting that DAC to the high setting of 6 volts when paired with his headphones. 

Not entirely sure whether it's placebo but I too generally prefer to run mine closer to 6 volts via the Spring KTE w/ preamp.


----------



## tdx

mfgillia said:


> Some owners have claimed better performance using higher voltages with this amp. For example, in Zach's video highlighting dCS LINA he preferred setting that DAC to the high setting of 6 volts when paired with his headphones.
> 
> Not entirely sure whether it's placebo but I too generally prefer to run mine closer to 6 volts via the Spring KTE w/ preamp.


Quick question about that, what volume level do you set your Spring 3 at before going into the Cayin? 100%?
Thanks


----------



## mfgillia

tdx said:


> Quick question about that, what volume level do you set your Spring 3 at before going into the Cayin? 100%?
> Thanks


After seeing your email I sent an email to Wildism to get a more exact answer as to which level is just below 6 volts. Unfortunately, he doesn't know either. I've been using 97 on the Spring 3 without any difficulty.


----------



## Sampajanna

I run the TT2 (6V) with no issue, but i prefer setting it to preamp mode to use more of the VC on the amp….


----------



## JeffMann (Aug 21, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> 22DE4s are so hard to find tho, my trusted dealers don't have a single one of them.


I was thinking of the possibility of purchasing a HA-300Mk2 amplifier to drive my Susvara headphones because I have never heard them sound good using a SS amplifier.

Then, I read this post that stated that 22DE4 rectifier tubes are hard to find. Does that mean that I could possibly not replace the stock 22DE4 tubes if they failed after a few years of use thereby rendering the HA-300MK2 amplifier non-usable?

Another question - where can I purchase a black version in the USA? I thought that the US distributor was https://shop.musicteck.com/products/cayin-ha-300mk2-vacuum-tube-headphone-amplifier but they have no black version available.

Jeff.


----------



## zach915m

JeffMann said:


> I was thinking of the possibility of purchasing a HA-300Mk2 amplifier to drive my Susvara headphones because I have never heard them sound good using a SS amplifier.
> 
> Then, I read this post that stated that 22DE4 rectifier tubes are hard to find. Does that mean that I could possibly not replace the stock 22DE4 tubes if they failed after a few years of use thereby rendering the HA-300MK2 amplifier non-usable?
> 
> ...


We are a dealer and will have black units in within a few weeks.  Silver is in stock now.  We also will have the exciting and much smaller Ha-3a in stock shortly.  In black. 

Many videos on these great cayin amps soon with my opening and impressions.


----------



## UntilThen

ARCXENOS said:


> Extra benefit from the Susvara being so insensitive, all that talk of hissing you read in the thread basically doesn't apply to the Susvara



Yup.


----------



## mfgillia

JeffMann said:


> Another question - where can I purchase a black version in the USA? I thought that the US distributor was https://shop.musicteck.com/products/cayin-ha-300mk2-vacuum-tube-headphone-amplifier but they have no black version available.





zach915m said:


> We are a dealer and will have black units in within a few weeks.  Silver is in stock now.  We also will have the exciting and much smaller Ha-3a in stock shortly.  In black.
> 
> Many videos on these great cayin amps soon with my opening and impressions.


I brought mine from Zach and had a great experience. Highly recommend adding a pair of ZMFs to the order though to get the bundled discount.


----------



## Wes S

JeffMann said:


> I was thinking of the possibility of purchasing a HA-300Mk2 amplifier to drive my Susvara headphones because I have never heard them sound good using a SS amplifier.
> 
> Then, I read this post that stated that 22DE4 rectifier tubes are hard to find. Does that mean that I could possibly not replace the stock 22DE4 tubes if they failed after a few years of use thereby rendering the HA-300MK2 amplifier non-usable?
> 
> ...


It's true, the NOS 22DE4's are not that plentiful to be purchased on ebay at the moment, but I bet more will become available sooner or later.  Also, I am pretty sure Cayin would be happy to sell you a backup set or replacement from their stash later down the road if needed.  The stock NOS 22DE4 are said to last for years in HA300MK2 as well, so nothing to really fret.


----------



## JeffMann

Wes S said:


> It's true, the NOS 22DE4's are not that plentiful to be purchased on ebay at the moment, but I bet more will become available sooner or later.  Also, I am pretty sure Cayin would be happy to sell you a backup set or replacement from their stash later down the road if needed.  The stock NOS 22DE4 are said to last for years in HA300MK2 as well, so nothing to really fret.


Your opinion makes no sense to me. You are simply betting that more NOS 22DE4s will become available without any true knowledge on the global amount that exists out there in the public sphere. I cannot comprehend how a responsible commercial audio company can produce an audio component that mandatorily requires the use of NOS tubes, which may not become available in the near/distant future. If I purchase a HA-300 amp, I want an ironclad guarantee that replacement tubes will be widely available for at least the next 10-20 years. 

Jeff.


----------



## ARCXENOS

JeffMann said:


> Your opinion makes no sense to me. You are simply betting that more NOS 22DE4s will become available without any true knowledge on the global amount that exists out there in the public sphere. I cannot comprehend how a responsible commercial audio company can produce an audio component that mandatorily requires the use of NOS tubes, which may not become available in the near/distant future. If I purchase a HA-300 amp, I want an ironclad guarantee that replacement tubes will be widely available for at least the next 10-20 years.
> 
> Jeff.





Andykong said:


> These are one of the best version of 22DE4 tube and when used as rectifier tube in HA-300MK2, they can easily last heavy usage of 5 to 10 years. The four 22DE4 are supposed to work independently from each other. When we replace a 22DE4 rectifier tube, we can do that per piece without any matching process





Andykong said:


> The 22DE4 are available under RCA (stock tube), GE, Raytheon, and a coupe of smaller labels. It's most unfortunately that they are not available in Germany. Please be reminded that there is no need to get the tube in match pair (or matched quad), and the tubes are meant to be used for 5 to 10 years of normal operation, non-NOS or even less than premium condition 22DE4 will work fine. These are relatively low-priced vacuum tubes (lots of choice below $10 per tube), so I guess the risk to source from other European countries are relatively low?



I do wish the statements can be further clarified by Andy (what is heavy usage, for example), but it does look like the stock quad will last us sometime.

 I have contacted a couple of dealers, locally and online, and 22DE4 do appear to be in a shortage as of now, however I was also told that they periodically get restocked (from where? I don't know. 1 of them told me he could get Sylvania pieces in a few months).

22DE4 can also be mixed and matched apparently, so maybe in a few years my own unit's power supply will look like something out of mad max. I think I just talked myself into getting a quad of GE now for hoarding haha.

But the bottom line is, I don't think you are wrong for considering the eventual state of the amp, I just think it might not be too hard for it to get 10 years of usage with another set of rectifiers, assuming the other parts don't fail first. Unless "heavy usage" means an average of 3 hours a day then maybe its time to go hoard sets. Or maybe Cayin does have ample reserves, who knows


----------



## Wes S (Aug 22, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> Your opinion makes no sense to me. You are simply betting that more NOS 22DE4s will become available without any true knowledge on the global amount that exists out there in the public sphere. I cannot comprehend how a responsible commercial audio company can produce an audio component that mandatorily requires the use of NOS tubes, which may not become available in the near/distant future. If I purchase a HA-300 amp, I want an ironclad guarantee that replacement tubes will be widely available for at least the next 10-20 years.
> 
> Jeff.


Having been hunting, collecting, buying and selling tubes for the past 6 years quite heavily, it makes since to me.  The NOS tubes become available in cycles, as in collectors get old and sell off their stashes and therefore it doesn't happen all at once.  Also, I know for a fact Cayin has a huge stash of the RCA 22DE4 tubes, and will sell you one backup quad straight up, and if later down the road you actually need another replacement, I am sure they will help you out for that as well.  I wish they used a different rectifier myself, but it is also not a deal breaker for me either (I was able to piece together 6 different quads in a week).   If you want an "ironclad guarantee" with NOS tubes and their availability, you aren't gonna get it from anyone.  That's why all us tube guys, have backups for our backups, and often backups for those backups. 

One last thing, and it's something I think many are not getting.  The 22DE4's in the HA300mk2 don't have to be matched or even of the same brand.  Heck, you could run 4 different brands at once, and finding singles is much easier than trying to find a matched quad.


----------



## tinariwen (Aug 24, 2022)

Deleted


----------



## Wes S

Just rolled in a couple of different rectifiers, so now I am running a pair of 60's G.E. in the front slots and a pair of 60's RCA in the back slots, and that last bit of noise I was hearing with my VC's is completely gone.    This further clarifies why I think some are having noise issues and others are not.  It's a true crap shoot on finding quiet tubes, and Cayin is obviously not checking them for noise before putting them in the amps.  So, the noise can come from any of the three tube types.

On another note, I am getting a better handle on the sound and have quite a few hours now on my Elrog ER300B and this amp is flat out incredible.  The sound is so powerful, dynamic, and detailed that it truly feels like hearing live music.  The engagement factor is in full effect, and all the emotion one would get from standing in front of the stage of a live show is there.  The weight to the notes is stunning and you can feel the impact and texture.  My VC's have really come alive, and I feel like I am really hearing all that they can offer and I just can't get enough.

Happy Listening!


----------



## tinariwen

Recently I read something about SET amps not behaving like SS amps, in that the expected rules don’t apply.

I can’t find the article or post I originally read now, but it alluded to the fact that cans like the Susvara actually benefit more from high impedance on SET amps, despite the typical rule being that high impedance doesn’t typically play well with low impedance cans.

Can anyone give me an ELI5 for that? I don’t quite know how to phrase the question concisely enough to bring up google answers.

Also, does it have anything to do the VU meters almost constantly maxing out when listening to the Susvaras with the HA-300mk2? I’m not listening uncomfortably loud - 10-12 o’clock on medium impedance. I also can’t notice any clipping, but during busy passages the needle is almost always completely on the right.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 25, 2022)

So, I rolled back in a full quad of G.E. 60's 22DE4, and pulled the pair of RCA from the 60's, and wow they really have different presentations and one could really just roll rectifiers and get good results.  The G.E. is forward and exciting, with insane dynamics, texture and punch, with a you are inside the music kind of 3D like presentation with very strong bass.  The RCA's go a completely different direction, and open up the sound, relaxing things a bit of which makes the staging very huge and expansive.  With the RCA's the sound literally seems to fill the room and jump way outside the cups, but they lack the immediacy and impact of the G.E.  Having blending them with a pair each, seemed to allow the RCA to come through a bit more and open up the stage and the G.E. helped with the dynamics.  So, one could go all G.E. 22DE4 if you want a more exciting, forward and impactful sound, or throw in an RCA or two if you want to open up the stage.  Rolling rectifiers is legit, and such an easy way to switch things up.  I say if you are happy with your driver and power tubes such as myself, find a few rectifiers and give it a try.  Remember you can buy singles, and roll one at time if you like and it's probably a good idea to do it that way to get an idea for how each tube effects the sound.

Happy Rolling and Listening!


----------



## Andykong

tinariwen said:


> Recently I read something about SET amps not behaving like SS amps, in that the expected rules don’t apply.
> 
> I can’t find the article or post I originally read now, but it alluded to the fact that cans like the Susvara actually benefit more from high impedance on SET amps, despite the typical rule being that high impedance doesn’t typically play well with low impedance cans.
> 
> ...



If you are using Susvara, it is perfectly normal that the VU will "almost always completely on the right" during busy passages.  The Susvara is indeed the most demanding headphone in the market, it is rated at 83dB sensitivity.  When compared to headphones such as Focal Utopia (rated at 104dB sensitivity), the Susvara draws 100 times more power (power ratio of 20dB) when other factors remain unchanged.


----------



## Andykong

Wes S said:


> So, I rolled back in a full quad of G.E. 60's 22DE4, and pulled the pair of RCA from the 60's, and wow they really have different presentations and one could really just roll rectifiers and get good results.  The G.E. is forward and exciting, with insane dynamics, texture and punch, with a you are inside the music kind of 3D like presentation with very strong bass.  The RCA's go a completely different direction, and open up the sound, relaxing things a bit of which makes the staging very huge and expansive.  With the RCA's the sound literally seems to fill the room and jump way outside the cups, but they lack the immediacy and impact of the G.E.  Having blending them with a pair each, seemed to allow the RCA to come through a bit more and open up the stage and the G.E. helped with the dynamics.  So, one could go all G.E. 22DE4 if you want a more exciting, forward and impactful sound, or throw in an RCA or two if you want to open up the stage.  Rolling rectifiers is legit, and such an easy way to switch things up.  I say if you are happy with your driver and power tubes such as myself, find a few rectifiers and give it a try.  Remember you can buy singles, and roll one at time if you like and it's probably a good idea to do it that way to get an idea for how each tube effects the sound.
> 
> Happy Rolling and Listening!



And 22DE4 is dirt cheap when compared to high-quality 300B and 6SN7 vacuum tubes.


----------



## Andykong

JeffMann said:


> Your opinion makes no sense to me. You are simply betting that more NOS 22DE4s will become available without any true knowledge on the global amount that exists out there in the public sphere. I cannot comprehend how a responsible commercial audio company can produce an audio component that mandatorily requires the use of NOS tubes, which may not become available in the near/distant future. If I purchase a HA-300 amp, I want an ironclad guarantee that replacement tubes will be widely available for at least the next 10-20 years.
> 
> Jeff.



Don't worry, the 22DE4 is not really a rare item, you'll find them after a while, we have been using this tube for over 10 years and we have seen up and downs of this tube in the supply market.  Wes S  has provided a fairly accurate description of the supply market of 22DE4 and our supply chain experience agrees with his sharing.  In our experience, the tubes are more popular from Noth America sellers, we have no idea why Europe tube sellers tend to ignore this tube completely. 




ARCXENOS said:


> I do wish the statements can be further clarified by Andy (what is heavy usage, for example), but it does look like the stock quad will last us sometime.
> 
> I have contacted a couple of dealers, locally and online, and 22DE4 do appear to be in a shortage as of now, however I was also told that they periodically get restocked (from where? I don't know. 1 of them told me he could get Sylvania pieces in a few months).
> 
> ...



Thank you for quoting my previous posts to clarify the 22DE4 usage.  As a speaker and headphone amplifier manufacturer, we assume 4 hours per day as regular usage, if you go beyond that, you are into the different degrees of heavy usage.  This probably is a lot of hours for headphone amplifiers already and speaker amplifiers tend to get more hours because they can be used for background music 

If anyone wants to buy a spare set of 22DE4 from Cayin, please drop an email to our Sales Manager john@cayin.cn, the shipment probably will cost more than the tubes and that's why we didn't leave it as a regular accessory item on our website. Yes, you can buy it from us.


----------



## Erwinatm

From my experience with Class A SET amps either with 300B or 2A3 tubes, best sound is after 1 hour and before 4 hours. After 4 hours the quality starting to degrade.

Of course it also depends on your working temperature and also the quality of the power tubes.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 26, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> From my experience with Class A SET amps either with 300B or 2A3 tubes, best sound is after 1 hour and before 4 hours. After 4 hours the quality starting to degrade.
> 
> Of course it also depends on your working temperature and also the quality of the power tubes.


Interesting, and I definitely agree with the first part and don't even start listening until about 45 min to an hour after power up.  However, I have listened for longer than 4 hours tons of times on both my SET amps, and the sound stayed the exact same after that first hour of warm-up.  Honestly, I usually only run the amp for 4 - 5 hours at a time, as I don't like using up my tubes and my small listening room can really heat up as well and I have to crank up the ceiling fan (external noise), but I really don't think the sound ever starts to degrade from extended hours of usage.


----------



## Erwinatm (Aug 26, 2022)

Wes S said:


> Interesting, and I definitely agree with the first part and don't even start listening until about 45 min to an hour after power up.  However, I have listened for longer than 4 hours tons of times on both my SET amps, and the sound stayed the exact same after that first hour of warm-up.  Honestly, I usually only run the amp for 4 - 5 hours at a time, as I don't like using up my tubes and my small listening room can really heat up as well and I have to crank up the ceiling fan (external noise), but I really don't think the sound ever starts to degrade from extended hours of usage.


I said 1-4 hours peak performance is of course relative depends on the bias setting as well and how hard you push the amp.

My opinion is based on 2-3 amps : Audio Note Conqueror, Sun audio  2a3, Audion 845 in  my speaker setup. 👌👍


----------



## Wes S (Aug 26, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> I said 1-4 hours peak performance is of course relative depends on the bias setting as well and how loud  listening level.
> 
> My opinion is based on 2-3 amps in  my speaker setup. 👌👍


 . . . I see we agree to disagree on this one, and whatever floats your boat go with it. 

I would love to hear what Cayin has to say about this, as I imagine they ran the amp for many hours at a time during the development process.  Tubes are made to run for extended periods of time as well as the gear they go in, and just out of curiosity what exactly starts degrading after the 4 hour mark for you?


----------



## mfgillia (Aug 26, 2022)

Wes S said:


> Interesting, and I definitely agree with the first part and don't even start listening until about 45 min to an hour after power up.  However, I have listened for longer than 4 hours tons of times on both my SET amps, and the sound stayed the exact same after that first hour of warm-up.  Honestly, I usually only run the amp for 4 - 5 hours at a time, as I don't like using up my tubes and my small listening room can really heat up as well and I have to crank up the ceiling fan (external noise), but I really don't think the sound ever starts to degrade from extended hours of usage.


Likewise I haven't noticed performance diminishing after 4-5 hours but rarely listen critically, non-stop for that length of time.

However, once I turn on the Cayin in the morning/afternoon I usually don't turn it off until the late evening, which is also when I tend to listen more critically for an hour or so. During this time period - i.e., late evening after the amp has been on for 8 to 12 hours, I continue to be very happy with the results since purchasing this amp and upgrading my DAC.


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> . . . I see we agree to disagree on this one, and whatever floats your boat go with it.
> 
> I would love to hear what Cayin has to say about this, as I imagine they ran the amp for many hours at a time during the development process.  Tubes are made to run for extended periods of time as well as the gear they go in, and just out of curiosity what exactly starts degrading after the 4 hour mark for you?


Bass region,  especially in low bass. Less tight. Tonally the sound shifting to more dominant midrange. Sometimes you will hear a little brighter. That's perhaps because you are hearing less bass.

Input transformer is hotter than usual. 

4 hours marks is in my environment, for your case might be longer because you live in colder country.


----------



## Erwinatm

mfgillia said:


> Likewise I haven't noticed performance diminishing after 4-5 hours but rarely listen critically, non-stop for that length of time.
> 
> However, once I turn on the Cayin in the morning/afternoon I usually don't turn it off until the late evening, which is also when I tend to listen more critically for an hour or so. During this time period - i.e., late evening after the amp has been on for 8 to 12 hours, I continue to be very happy with the results since purchasing this amp and upgrading my DAC.


When you only turn it on without music is different. You should turn up and make the amps working.

I havent tried it on Cayin, because I can't do critical listening with headphones for more than 2 hours. I have neck problems. With my speaker setup is easier because I just sit back and relax 👌😉


----------



## Wes S (Aug 26, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Bass region,  especially in low bass. Less tight. Tonally the sound shifting to more dominant midrange. Sometimes you will hear a little brighter. That's perhaps because you are hearing less bass.
> 
> Input transformer is hotter than usual.
> 
> 4 hours marks is in my environment, for your case might be longer because you live in colder country.


Interesting and thanks for sharing.  I had never heard of or experienced this before, so I am quite curious why this would happen?  Seems to me all the gear would eventually stabilize, and then coast at the same temperature no matter how long you run it at normal listening volumes.


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> Interesting and thanks for sharing.  I had never heard of or experienced this before, so I am quite curious why this would happen?  Seems to me all the gear would eventually stabilize, and then coast at the same temperature no matter how long you run it at normal listening volumes.


Yes For class AB or low watt class A (preamp) solid state amp. Some manufacturers even recommend not turn it off, PS Audio if I am not mistaken.  But I don't recommend that for class A tube amps.

Unless you are willing to replace tubes faster than normal.


----------



## justanut

Erwinatm said:


> Bass region,  especially in low bass. Less tight. Tonally the sound shifting to more dominant midrange. Sometimes you will hear a little brighter. That's perhaps because you are hearing less bass.
> 
> Input transformer is hotter than usual.
> 
> 4 hours marks is in my environment, for your case might be longer because you live in colder country.


Don't forget to account for your own physiology and psychology.. I find that it's usually my ears that need a break, esp for critical listening. And frankly difficult to quantify what you mentioned, unless you're listening to the same track over and over... which I don't recommend. Enjoy the music! Cheers.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 27, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Yes For class AB or low watt class A (preamp) solid state amp. Some manufacturers even recommend not turn it off, PS Audio if I am not mistaken.  But I don't recommend that for class A tube amps.
> 
> Unless you are willing to replace tubes faster than normal.


Obviously, the tubes in tube amps get used up quicker if you just leave the amp on, but I still don't think the sound starts degrading after a few hours (1-4) of use like you are saying.  

I really would love to hear what Cayin has to say about this, as I am sure they have tested this, and I imagine every show they go to the amp stays on longer than 4 hours.   @Andykong any thoughts on this?


----------



## Andykong (Aug 27, 2022)

Wes S said:


> . . . I see we agree to disagree on this one, and whatever floats your boat go with it.
> 
> I would love to hear what Cayin has to say about this, as I imagine they ran the amp for many hours at a time during the development process.  Tubes are made to run for extended periods of time as well as the gear they go in, and just out of curiosity what exactly starts degrading after the 4 hour mark for you?



We can only comment that in our lab test environment, we didn't experience any noticeable performance diminishing after 4 hours of continuous operation if the operating environment can remain unchanged during the test.

However, we do receive a lot of comments from our users that their amplifier sounds better when on weekdays and afternoon when the electricity are not at peak load.  I guess that is not necessarily the case when compared to Europe or North American users since the city power supply is steady and the population is not as crowded as in China.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 27, 2022)

justanut said:


> Don't forget to account for your own physiology and psychology.. I find that it's usually my ears that need a break, esp for critical listening. And frankly difficult to quantify what you mentioned, unless you're listening to the same track over and over... which I don't recommend. Enjoy the music! Cheers.


I think you are on to something here and good point.  I remember back in my earlier basshead days (I used to be all about the bass ) I would sometimes become "bass deaf" after long listening sessions and prolonged exposure to intense bass, so listening fatigue could definitely account for a perceived loss in bass or uptick in mids and highs.


----------



## Wes S

Andykong said:


> We can only comment that in our lab test environment, we didn't experience any noticeable performance diminishing after 4 hours of continuous operation if the operating environment can remain unchanged during the test.
> 
> However, we do receive a lot of comments from our users that their amplifier sounds better when on weekdays and afternoon when the electricity are not at peak load.  I guess that is not necessarily the case when compared to Europe or North American users since the city power supply is steady and the population is not as crowded as in China.


Thanks for the info Andy!


----------



## Erwinatm

Andykong said:


> after 4 hours of continuous operation if the operating environment can remain unchanged during the test.



Wise answer. It has to be in a controlled environment in factory's testing labs. I guess as manufacturer you won't release statement that your Class A  amps are designed to handle long time heat / always on with loads for long hours. CMIIW. 

Again, My opinion is based on my system, my experience, my environment, my mileage. YMMV. I agree you disagree.

Cheers and enjoy music friends.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 27, 2022)

It's another tube rolling day, and I left one pair of G.E. 22DE4 from 60's in the front two slots, and then rolled in a pair of 60's Raytheon (made in Japan) 22DE4 in the rear two slots, and I have to say I am liking what I am hearing.  The GE's have the immediacy, punch and forwardness, and the Raytheon's have the transparency, speed, and openness and combined the staging opened up some, without any loss of detail or immediacy/punch.

Another thing of note is now that I have the noise floor issue handled, I decided to play around with the impedance setting, and I just went up from low to medium impedance with my VC's and I am loving the extra bit of euphonic texture and power I am getting.  There is a hint more of "tube magic" with the higher impedance and everything just sounds a bit more engaging, and fun.


----------



## justanut

Wes S said:


> It's another tube rolling day, and I left one pair of G.E. 22DE4 from 60's in the front two slots, and then rolled in a pair of 60's Raytheon (made in Japan) 22DE4 in the rear two slots, and I have to say I am liking what I am hearing.  The GE's have the immediacy, punch and forwardness, and the Raytheon's have the transparency, speed, and openness and combined the staging opened up some, without any loss of detail or immediacy/punch.
> 
> Another thing of note is now that I have the noise floor issue handled, I decided to play around with the impedance setting, and I just went up from low to medium impedance with my VC's and I am loving the extra bit of euphonic texture and power I am getting.  There is a hint more of "tube flavor" with the higher impedance and everything just sounds a bit more engaging, and fun.


I wish I could get my hands on 22DE4s! I could only order spares from Cayin for what I consider inflated prices 🥲


----------



## JeffMann

justanut said:


> I wish I could get my hands on 22DE4s! I could only order spares from Cayin for what I consider inflated prices 🥲


What is the inflated price?

Jeff.


----------



## justanut

JeffMann said:


> What is the inflated price?
> 
> Jeff.


My bad. I mixed it up with another purchase. USD$140 ish for a quad, not THAT bad..


----------



## Wes S (Aug 29, 2022)

Speaking of 22DE4's, here is how I rank the ones I have and a brief description of how they sound.  I have found I like to blend different pairs and I am currently running a pair of #1 in the back slots and pair of #2 in the front slots and that's where I will be staying for the foreseeable future.

1.  Raytheon (Japan early 60's) 22DE4 Black Plates - Dynamic, with very strong, tight and deep bass with punch you can feel, highly detailed, fast and open sounding - This tube has the strongest bass, and is the most transparent and open sounding of the bunch, hence why it's ranked number 1.  I feel like I am sitting a few rows back stage level in the best seats in the house with this tube.





2. G.E. 22DE4 60's - Vey dynamic, foward and immediate sounding, with strong and tight bass, feels like sitting front row, and really has the 3D effect going strong due to the forwardness with sounds flying all around and behind my head.  I like to blend this tube with the Raytheon black plates, and combined they really bring out the best of each other.




3. Raytheon (Japan mid to late 60's) 22DE4 Grey Plates - Similar to the blackplates with a very open sounding stage, but just a bit less dynamic and extended as well.  I like the black plates better, but these are close and are still very very good tubes.




4.  Tung Sol 22DE4 60's - Mid focused with good dynamics and midbass punch with forward vocals. The stage is on the smaller more intimate side, but this tube could work well in certain situations or blended with a tube that has better extension on both ends like the Raytheons.




5. Sylvania 22DE4 60's - This tube has the classic Sylvania "house sound", of being slightly warm and well balanced, with decent bass, big vocals and an airy yet smooth top end.  This tube leans a bit warm and slow compared to the top 4, but still has good detail with a smooth sound overall.  I consider this tube to have the "classic tube sound", and it could work very well blended with a faster more neutral tube, such as the G.E. or Raytheon or if you are wanting to slow things down a bit this is your tube.  The staging is open as well, and it's like sitting quite a few rows back from the stage.  This is a great middle of the road tube, and I think many would like it.




6.  RCA 22DE4 60's - Good balance top to bottom, decent extension on both ends and a very open sounding stage.  This tube lacks the immediacy and impact of the top tubes, and sounds quite a bit diffused and smoothed over as well, but doesn't have any glaring issues either, so I can see why Cayin chose RCA as the stock tube.  It's a good middle of the road kind of tube, and can be great blended with a more forward tube or for someone looking to expand the stage.  This tube feels like you are sitting quite a few rows back in a big concert hall.




Happy Hunting, Rolling and Listening!


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> Speaking of 22DE4's, here is how I rank the ones I have and a brief description of how they sound.  I have found I like to blend different pairs and I am currently running a pair of #1 in the back slots and pair of #2 in the front slots and that's where I will be staying for the foreseeable future.
> 
> 1.  Raytheon (Japan early 60's) 22DE4 Black Plates - Dynamic, with very strong, tight and deep bass with punch you can feel, highly detailed, fast and open sounding - This tube has the strongest bass, and is the most transparent and open sounding of the bunch, hence why it's ranked number 1.  I feel like I am sitting a few rows back stage level in the best seats in the house with this tube.
> 
> ...



I ordered a quad of GEs the other day just for backup, hopefully I will be able to tell the difference!


----------



## Wes S

Got to love the ealry morning tube glow!


----------



## Wes S

ARCXENOS said:


> I ordered a quad of GEs the other day just for backup, hopefully I will be able to tell the difference!


Looking forward to hearing how they work out for you, and the G.E. sound is quite different from the RCA, so you should definitely hear a difference.


----------



## Erwinatm

Wes S said:


> Looking forward to hearing how they work out for you, and the G.E. sound is quite different from the RCA, so you should definitely hear a difference.


Expecting mine maybe in a couple of weeks...yes weeks.. still in US right now...😤


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> Got to love the ealry morning tube glow!


Let it rip.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Aug 31, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> I ordered a quad of GEs the other day just for backup, hopefully I will be able to tell the difference!


They arrived, I got a quad (1979, 1982 pairs) for 50 USD, used them for the last few hours and I want to say, yes I do think rolling rectifier do make some difference. I bought the quad just as insurance, but I am pleased at the outcome.



Wes S said:


> tight bass, feels like sitting front row, and really has the 3D effect going strong due to the forwardness with sounds flying all around and behind my head



I have always been told rectifiers make little difference, maybe its placebo on my end, but I believe Wes summarized the experience for me. Maybe its one of those cable debates, but looking at the point of view of having a backup set, I think its more than I bargained for.









Different glow as an added bonus. I will also agree with sentiments to roll rectifiers after you are done with your drivers and power tubes.

As for my power tube rolling, I recently found out that my local Elrog dealer is still active with local warranty, lets just say I am even more interested in them now


----------



## Erwinatm

ARCXENOS said:


> They arrived, I got a quad (1979, 1982 pairs) for 50 USD, used them for the last few hours and I want to say, yes I do think rolling rectifier do make some difference. I bought the quad just as insurance, but I am pleased at the outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 When I ordered price was already $70  and still in US right now. I don't know what USPS doing for 10 days. 

Why dont you use them and make the stock ones as backup?


----------



## ARCXENOS

Erwinatm said:


> When I ordered price was already $70  and still in US right now. I don't know what USPS doing for 10 days.
> 
> Why dont you use them and make the stock ones as backup?


For the foreseeable future, the RCA quad became the backup indeed

Unless the price gets out of hand, I will likely pickup another quad, hopefully Sylvanias, when the opportunity arises.


----------



## ARCXENOS

First impressions over 15 hours, comparison relative to the Gold Lions with both setups using Mullard ECC32, GE 22DE4, Holo May and Susvara, Genres : Rock, Pop, Electronica, Acoustics





In the above setup and *my personal opinion,* my unscientific first impression of the ER300b includes :

- Better depth perception, IMO it goes in very deep vs the gold lions, the 3D effect is simply more pronounced.
- Instrument separation is very clear and layered, percussion and strings definition makes me want to revisit my entire music collection again
- Absolutely faster transient response than I have perceived on the gold lions, very crispy sounding, absolutely no contest here. The cymbal crash I mentioned previously in my ecc32 post? It gave me shivers when I heard it again. The resolution and detail retrieval from these are just flat out superior to the gold lions
- Vocals sounds more musical, gold lions feels relatively dull in comparison. Overall more energetic mids, which helps sell the illusion of the the artist being close around.
- More weighty, authoritative bass. Full-bodied, tight and never muddy. To be retested with the kenrads vt-231 once I can stop listening to the current setup 
- Less perceived sibilance vs gold lions, definitely less harsh for some electronic sounds.
- Did I mention speed?

Pleasant Musicality is how I will describe my experience in summary. You won't get hyper detail (compared to other similarly priced higher end 300b pairs as I have read and considered), nor will you get earthquake generators, what you get is something that hits the right amount of everything. These aren't just hype from the various threads, these are the real deal. *In my opinion, *I now believe 300B rolling can make a big perceivable difference, and I would be keened on trying out other pairs in the future.

As much as I love these, I still believe driver tubes (your 6SN7s and variants) should come first, but once you get that signature you want, there is a definite difference from rolling the 300B.

All around, without a doubt in my mind, it is an immediate night and day difference vs the gold lions. I* definitely enjoyed my time with the stock Gold Lions* *from the start* (otherwise I would had never reached this point), and I try my best to look at things as sidegrades in this hobby (i.e. just different as opposed to X > Y), but this is one of those times I couldn't. I am hoping that someday, an ER6SN7 can exist to listen to what Elrog can really do.


----------



## llamaluv

Hey, thanks to the posters who have mentioned the GE rectifiers, and @Wes S in particular of course. 

I'm running them in now for the first time, and they sound very good. The differences I'm hearing remind me of the kind of changes that can be had by rolling the power tubes, and easily as important. Only costing 5-20x less to do so .

After my first 45 minutes of listening, I'm quite impressed.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 4, 2022)

llamaluv said:


> Hey, thanks to the posters who have mentioned the GE rectifiers, and @Wes S in particular of course.
> 
> I'm running them in now for the first time, and they sound very good. The differences I'm hearing remind me of the kind of changes that can be had by rolling the power tubes, and easily as important. Only costing 5-20x less to do so .
> 
> After my first 45 minutes of listening, I'm quite impressed.


That's great those G.E.'s are working out for you!

As for some more rectifier talk and another one to keep an eye out for, I actually just finally received the first NOS 22DE4 tubes I ever purchased after a month long wait, and with what I am hearing they were worth the wait.  Say hello to the Sicte 22DE4, of which I am running a full quad of and they seem to combine the incredible stage expansion of the the RCA's and the speed, impact, and detail of the Raytheon Black Plates, and they look cool as heck too. 

These Sicte are NOS made in Italy from 61', and look so nice they look like they have been kept in a museum.  The inner construction from tube to tube is very consistent, and the build quality looks first class.  You can immediately tell upon first glance in person, these tubes were made with extreme care and high attention to detail, as even the labels are all on the same side.






The tube glow from the Sicte 22DE4 is quite special as well, just like the sound.  





Happy Hunting, Rolling and Listening!


----------



## Yggy

llamaluv said:


> Hey, thanks to the posters who have mentioned the GE rectifiers, and @Wes S in particular of course.
> 
> I'm running them in now for the first time, and they sound very good. The differences I'm hearing remind me of the kind of changes that can be had by rolling the power tubes, and easily as important. Only costing 5-20x less to do so .
> 
> After my first 45 minutes of listening, I'm quite impressed.


I struggled to tell the difference when I switched from stock to GE rectifier tubes on the HA-300. I kept the GE tubes in but it wasn’t far from 50/50 to my ears. Sylvania metal base 6SN7W and Western Electric new production WE300b tubes took the HA-300 to another level. 

I experimented with a much cheaper pair of Ken Rad VT231 6SN7GT tubes last week after reading they were the best 6SN7 tube for bass. They were very nice, definitely better than stock, bass was a little fuller, but I preferred the Sylvania 6SN7W clarity and treble sparkle. 

I got a used SMSL SA-400 Class D integrated amp last week after reading this review. 

https://soundnews.net/amplifiers/smsl-sa400-review-power-overwhelming/

This little fella can blow your hat off with Susvaras and 1266 Phi TCs. It can’t compete with the tonality and refinement of a souped up HA-300 but if you want to hear what your TOTL headphones can do with obscene amounts of power for 10% of the cost of a fancy pre and power amp combo or integrated, it’s superb. 

This Sigma 2022 dance remix is my test track for bass slam and dynamics. 

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/give-it-to-me-sigma/cjg63bzxid0pb


----------



## llamaluv (Sep 5, 2022)

For me, I hear pronounced differences going from the stock RCA rectifiers to the GE rectifiers. In contrast, I sometimes struggle to hear much influence from various, random driver tubes in this amp (I probably shouldn't admit that, lol).

The GE is darker, and with a more bounded soundstage. But images are meatier and more defined, the bass is better, and the most interesting quality is that textures in the bass are more noticeable. And I hear more layering and depth in the bass and midrange, which is something I'm always looking for.

Not sure if the character will evolve with more burn-in, though. Has anyone here burned in their "alternative" rectifiers for many hours yet? If the GEs retain this character generally, I would call the RCA's more reference-sounding, and the more appropriate set between the two to choose as "stock".

The next phase for me after burning these in a little more is to keep them in while trying other combinations of driver and power tubes. Right now I'm using Ken Rad 6SN7s and KR HP300Bs, so the combination of all three is probably bending the stick too far in terms of a meaty, bass emphasis, lol (but that bass though....).

But yea, I'm really enjoying the GE's at the moment. It's bringing something new and interesting to the table that I haven't quite heard before with this amp. Currently doing most all my listening with the Atrium.


----------



## UntilThen

Yggy said:


> but I preferred the Sylvania 6SN7W clarity and treble sparkle.



They were my favorite when I had it. Even prefer it over the Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 7, 2022)

UntilThen said:


> They were my favorite when I had it. Even prefer it over the Tung Sol 6sn7gt black glass round plates.


Those were both (TS BGRP and Sylvania W) some of my favorites, until I heard the RFT Welded Plates with Ceramic Spacers, of which smokes them all.  Bass, mids and treble are all in full effect with this one, and it's truly in a league if it's own.  Honestly, with how insanely good this tube sounds, I am kind of shocked it's not more well known.  RFT made some killer tubes with Telefunken tooling back in the day, and in my opinion they improved upon the Telefunken "house sound" by having insanely deep, textured and hard hitting bass, as well as the magical mids and highs.  The bass is so good on this tube, it makes the KenRad VT231 sound bass light and bloated. The RFT 6SN7 combined with the Elrog ER300B is truly like doubling down on pure magic, with perfect balance, insane dynamics and slam, and all the detail/transparency one could ever want.


----------



## JeffMann

Has anyone tried these Linlai global 6sn7tubes - https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product/linlai-global-e-6sn7-vacuum-tubes-pair-or-single/

Do they even fit without touching each other?

Jeff.


----------



## tdx

JeffMann said:


> Has anyone tried these Linlai global 6sn7tubes - https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product/linlai-global-e-6sn7-vacuum-tubes-pair-or-single/
> 
> Do they even fit without touching each other?
> 
> Jeff.


I did, a few pages back. They def don't touch: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...headamp-page-91.872093/page-138#post-17099490


----------



## JeffMann

tdx said:


> I did, a few pages back. They def don't touch: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...headamp-page-91.872093/page-138#post-17099490


Thanks - I forgot.

Do you still have the same impressions regarding their sound quality today as you previously described them at that time? What about its noise level?

Jeff.


----------



## tdx

JeffMann said:


> Thanks - I forgot.
> 
> Do you still have the same impressions regarding their sound quality today as you previously described them at that time? What about its noise level?
> 
> Jeff.


That's a good question. I've been listening to the new tube combo for a few weeks now and I've gotten used to the leaner but more clear sound. It's a different listening experience and now I think if I went back to stock I would miss the refinement this combo offers. My ideal sound would be this but with slightly more weighted notes like I had before, not sure if that makes sense.

The noise level is dead silent, but then again I'm using Susvaras which are so insensitive they wouldn't pick up on tube noise unless it was super present.


----------



## AcousticMatt

tdx said:


> That's a good question. I've been listening to the new tube combo for a few weeks now and I've gotten used to the leaner but more clear sound. It's a different listening experience and now I think if I went back to stock I would miss the refinement this combo offers. My ideal sound would be this but with slightly more weighted notes like I had before, not sure if that makes sense.
> 
> The noise level is dead silent, but then again I'm using Susvaras which are so insensitive they wouldn't pick up on tube noise unless it was super present.


How do you like this amp overall for Susvara? I've got them but also have some ZMF VCs coming in, and am trying to find a good fit for both.


----------



## tdx

AcousticMatt said:


> How do you like this amp overall for Susvara? I've got them but also have some ZMF VCs coming in, and am trying to find a good fit for both.


Honestly I really like it. I had a WA33 before and while it was great this is not far behind, esp. with upgraded tubes. I do miss the preamp function which the Cayin unfortunately doesn't have but otherwise it drives the Susvaras really well, is very well buil, looks beautiful... Can't complain.


----------



## AcousticMatt

tdx said:


> Honestly I really like it. I had a WA33 before and while it was great this is not far behind, esp. with upgraded tubes. I do miss the preamp function which the Cayin unfortunately doesn't have but otherwise it drives the Susvaras really well, is very well buil, looks beautiful... Can't complain.


Ok, that's great to hear that it's not far behind the WA33, especially considering the price. Thank for sharing!


----------



## dadracer2

For the past 2 weeks I have been listening to my HA300 as a speaker amp and it is fantastic. I have ended up buying a lot more LPs and then it really comes alive. I mean streaming on Qobuz is also great but there is an ease and organic delivery that is exquisite.

Thanks to my sons and wife for being away!!!


----------



## Andykong

dadracer2 said:


> For the past 2 weeks I have been listening to my HA300 as a speaker amp and it is fantastic. I have ended up buying a lot more LPs and then it really comes alive. I mean streaming on Qobuz is also great but there is an ease and organic delivery that is exquisite.
> 
> Thanks to my sons and wife for being away!!!



You can only fire up your speaker when your sons and wife are away?   I am sure we all understand that feeling when we cannot afford a man cave in our house.  The HA-300 (and MK2) is a very "delicious" speaker amplifier if pair it with a pair of sensitivity speakers.  We are glad that our HA-300 has offered an extra musical experience on top of your regular headphone system.  Keep it going.


----------



## Andykong

Mid-Autumn Festival is held on the full moon of the 8th month of the lunar calendar.  In Chinese Culture, roundness symbolizes completeness and togetherness, therefore, the Mid-Autumn Festival is a time for friends and family to come together and appreciate the union and completeness of our life.  This might be a small wish that we take for granted in the past, but COVID has taught us to treasure every moment of gathering and reunion, and we wish all our users and friend a Happy Mid-Autumn Festival.

I want to share a personal plan with all my partners and friends in HeadFi forum.  I'll take a long break later this month, and this will probably last till the end of 2022.  I'll stay out of the radar completely and will resurface when I feel confident that I am fit to handle my job again. @Cayin will take over my role for Cayin audio and I'll hand over my ongoing activities and responsibilities to them gradually next week.   So if you need to PM me on a Cayin-related issue, please include or address your problem to @Cayin.  I really enjoy my time with the HeadFi forum and am looking forward to meeting with you again after my long vacation.


----------



## Andykong

The covid has increased the sales of our speaker home audio product line significantly, we didn't expect that, and a lot of items in our product line were sold out and our production line was in 100% capacity in the past 12+ months.  Unfortunately, several products cannot be refilled promptly because of production scheduling and supply-chain delays.  The HA-300MK2 was delayed for 6 months as we have all aware, and the little brother HA-6A was not much better as there was roughly 8 months period that Cayin didn't have any HA-6A in stock.  That was a happy problem but was also a very tough time for everyone in Cayin.  We finally decided to bite the bullet and extend our manufacturing plant by adding a new building block ASAP.

So this is Cayin as-is, a 4-story building that covers our 95% operation from  R&D, production, logistics, and sales.  We have a small remote office in Zhuhai city center covering corporation communication and marketing.




We have completed the project planning and tendering process of the new Cayin block.  We shall move the R&D facilities to the new building and carate a new production line that is good for more demanding and delegated products.  Hopefully, the new facilities will be completed by 2023, our 30th anniversary.  Hopefully, our operation efficiency will be enhanced when the new facility is ready and we shall be able to serve our customers better in the long run.


----------



## normie610

Andykong said:


> The covid has increased the sales of our speaker home audio product line significantly, we didn't expect that, and a lot of items in our product line were sold out and our production line was in 100% capacity in the past 12+ months.  Unfortunately, several products cannot be refilled promptly because of production scheduling and supply-chain delays.  The HA-300MK2 was delayed for 6 months as we have all aware, and the little brother HA-6A was not much better as there was roughly 8 months period that Cayin didn't have any HA-6A in stock.  That was a happy problem but was also a very tough time for everyone in Cayin.  We finally decided to bite the bullet and extend our manufacturing plant by adding a new building block ASAP.
> 
> So this is Cayin as-is, a 4-story building that covers our 95% operation from  R&D, production, logistics, and sales.  We have a small remote office in Zhuhai city center covering corporation communication and marketing.
> 
> ...


Wow congrats to Cayin, business is really thriving for you guys in difficult times. Hope you keep on producing amazing products for many years to come.


----------



## mfgillia (Sep 17, 2022)

tdx said:


> Got two new sets of tubes for my Mk2: a pair of Takatsukis TA-300B and some Linlai Elites E-6SN7. Both are obviously a nice improvement over stock tubes although I have to admit this is prob the only amp where I thought stock tubes were more than just ok. I'm feeding the Cayin from a Holo Spring 3 KTE with preamp and for headphones  I'm using Susvaras.
> 
> The Linlais have way more extension in both directions, and bring added definition, soundstage and definitely improve the bass. Whereas with stock tubes the bass was strong but not very well defined, with the Linlais it is super sculpted and it's easy to discern all bass levels and nuances. For someone like me who doesn't want to deal with the complexities of getting NOS, these are a great buy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your feedback. As a result, I'm leaning heavily towards getting a pair of those Linlai Elites E-6SN7 for my Cayin with the Elrogs 300Bs. Where did you get yours? Was it at Premium Vacuum Tubes?


----------



## Wes S

Andykong said:


> Mid-Autumn Festival is held on the full moon of the 8th month of the lunar calendar.  In Chinese Culture, roundness symbolizes completeness and togetherness, therefore, the Mid-Autumn Festival is a time for friends and family to come together and appreciate the union and completeness of our life.  This might be a small wish that we take for granted in the past, but COVID has taught us to treasure every moment of gathering and reunion, and we wish all our users and friend a Happy Mid-Autumn Festival.
> 
> I want to share a personal plan with all my partners and friends in HeadFi forum.  I'll take a long break later this month, and this will probably last till the end of 2022.  I'll stay out of the radar completely and will resurface when I feel confident that I am fit to handle my job again. @Cayin will take over my role for Cayin audio and I'll hand over my ongoing activities and responsibilities to them gradually next week.   So if you need to PM me on a Cayin-related issue, please include or address your problem to @Cayin.  I really enjoy my time with the HeadFi forum and am looking forward to meeting with you again after my long vacation.


Have a great break Andy!  You have been so helpful to many, and it's been awesome to read through this thread and see how responsive and attentive you have been to all our questions.  You will be missed and I hope your time off is a blast.

Cheers!


----------



## dadracer2

Andykong said:


> You can only fire up your speaker when your sons and wife are away?   I am sure we all understand that feeling when we cannot afford a man cave in our house.  The HA-300 (and MK2) is a very "delicious" speaker amplifier if pair it with a pair of sensitivity speakers.  We are glad that our HA-300 has offered an extra musical experience on top of your regular headphone system.  Keep it going.


Ha ha not entirely. It's just this time I have been able to remodel our living room to provide a better and more dedicated hifi listening environment without the distraction of so many sofas and such!


----------



## qua2k

Usb DAC recommendations that pair well with this amp+ZMFs? Price range, 1-2.5k.


----------



## Demonis

Wes S said:


> That's great those G.E.'s are working out for you!
> 
> As for some more rectifier talk and another one to keep an eye out for, I actually just finally received the first NOS 22DE4 tubes I ever purchased after a month long wait, and with what I am hearing they were worth the wait.  Say hello to the Sicte 22DE4, of which I am running a full quad of and they seem to combine the incredible stage expansion of the the RCA's and the speed, impact, and detail of the Raytheon Black Plates, and they look cool as heck too.
> 
> ...


Hello there ! 
Thank you for sharing your experience on tubes rolling.
I am really new in this territory😊 
My gear it’s a Spring 3>Cayin ha-300 mk2>Atrium. 
After 2 months of burning in I still have a hum noise in the background when it’s no music playing with Atrium. 
With other headphones like Arya(v1) it’s totally silent background without any hum noise. 
Also I found Atrium punchier on my Oor+hypsos than the stock tubes. 
I follow your tube rolling and luckily I found a new quad Ge 22de4 and pair of Ken-Rad vt-231. I am still waiting to be delivered. 
I have in my basket a pair of Elrog 300b and a pair of 6n8s WF(RFT) , didn’t ordered them, are a bit pricey.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 16, 2022)

Demonis said:


> Hello there !
> Thank you for sharing your experience on tubes rolling.
> I am really new in this territory😊
> My gear it’s a Spring 3>Cayin ha-300 mk2>Atrium.
> ...


No prob and glad they were helpful!

The GE 22DE4 paired up with the Ken-Rad VT231 and stock Gold Lion 300B's is a fun ride no doubt.  I think many could be happy with that combo, and call it quits.  However, once you roll in the Elrog and RFT 6SN7 the increase in performance top to bottom is on a completely different level, and there is no going back for me.  They are both pricey as heck, and I hate to say it but they are worth every penny once you hear what they can do.  The Elrog are flat out incredible and that's no secret, but the RFT 6SN7 have just as much a positive impact, and are hands down the best 6SN7 I have ever heard.  I have used RFT tubes in the past with my previous amp, and their early tubes from the 50's are some of the best tubes ever made.  RFT actually bought the tooling from Telefunken back in the day and in my opinion improved on the sound by actually having killer bass as well as the magical mids and highs of the Tele's.  The Germans really knew how to make some magical tubes in those early days, and RFT really had something special going on no doubt.  Speaking of the Germans,  I think it's kind of poetic that I would end up with a German made 300B too, and it seems they still have it going on over there now with the Elrog's.

Happy Rolling and Listening.


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> No prob and glad they were helpful!
> 
> The GE 22DE4 paired up with the Ken-Rad VT231 and stock Gold Lion 300B's is a fun ride no doubt.  I think many could be happy with that combo, and call it quits.  However, once you roll in the Elrog and RFT 6SN7 the increase in performance top to bottom is on a completely different level, and there is no going back for me.  They are both pricey as heck, and I hate to say it but they are worth every penny once you hear what they can do.  The Elrog are flat out incredible and that's no secret, but the RFT 6SN7 have just as much a positive impact, and are hands down the best 6SN7 I have ever heard.  I have used RFT tubes in the past with my previous amp, and their early tubes from the 50's are some of the best tubes ever made.  RFT actually bought the tooling from Telefunken back in the day and in my opinion improved on the sound by actually having killer bass as well as the magical mids and highs of the Tele's.  The Germans really knew how to make some magical tubes in those early days, and RFT really had something special going on no doubt.  Speaking of the Germans,  I think it's kind of poetic that I would end up with a German made 300B too, and it seems they still have it going on over there now with the Elrog's.
> 
> Happy Rolling and Listening.


You really should try the MELZ 1578, a considerable step up from the RFT and all other 6SN7. However, yes, it is Elrog that is peerless.


----------



## Pauljenkins88

Looking at buying tubes from Hanoi tubes.com in Vietnam, I'm based in the UK, any one had any experiences buying from there ?


----------



## paradoxper

Pauljenkins88 said:


> Looking at buying tubes from Hanoi tubes.com in Vietnam, I'm based in the UK, any one had any experiences buying from there ?


He has high prices but provides excellent service and has been selling for many years.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 16, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> You really should try the MELZ 1578, a considerable step up from the RFT and all other 6SN7. However, yes, it is Elrog that is peerless.


Curious, have you heard the earliest version RFT 6SN7 with welded plates and ceramic spacers?  If so, I would love to know how they compare to the Melz, as that's the only 6SN7 I have not heard.  I often see mention of the Melz compared to all but the RFT, so you might be one of the only people I know of that has heard both.  I only know of one other person (of which is a kiler tube amp designer) who has heard both, and he preferred the RFT.

For reference, this is the version of RFT I am running pictured below.


----------



## tdx

As I wrote a few pages back I swapped stock tubes for Takatsuki 300Bs and Linlai Elites 6SN7S. While I got used to the new combo and appreciate the added refinement and clarity, I cant help but miss some of the body and bass impact that the stock tubes had over these (even if the sound was coarser). So I'm wondering, if I were to leave the Takatsukis in place, which I like, would there be a pair of 6SN7s that could give me the solidity and bass I'm missing now? The RFT 6SN7s and the Melz 1578 have been highly praised in the last few posts, would either of them do the trick? 
Thanks


----------



## ARCXENOS

tdx said:


> As I wrote a few pages back I swapped stock tubes for Takatsuki 300Bs and Linlai Elites 6SN7S. While I got used to the new combo and appreciate the added refinement and clarity, I cant help but miss some of the body and bass impact that the stock tubes had over these (even if the sound was coarser). So I'm wondering, if I were to leave the Takatsukis in place, which I like, would there be a pair of 6SN7s that could give me the solidity and bass I'm missing now? The RFT 6SN7s and the Melz 1578 have been highly praised in the last few posts, would either of them do the trick?
> Thanks


I also have the Linlais, and from the tubes I have, I would say Kenrads VT-231 staggered plates, are by far the ones that have the hardest hitting bass.

I got the black glass variant, but from what I read, it doesn't matter, only parallel plates vs staggered construction makes a difference, apparently.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 16, 2022)

tdx said:


> As I wrote a few pages back I swapped stock tubes for Takatsuki 300Bs and Linlai Elites 6SN7S. While I got used to the new combo and appreciate the added refinement and clarity, I cant help but miss some of the body and bass impact that the stock tubes had over these (even if the sound was coarser). So I'm wondering, if I were to leave the Takatsukis in place, which I like, would there be a pair of 6SN7s that could give me the solidity and bass I'm missing now? The RFT 6SN7s and the Melz 1578 have been highly praised in the last few posts, would either of them do the trick?
> Thanks


I can't speak for the Melz or Takatsuki, but I can assure you the RFT's slam and have weight.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 16, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> I also have the Linlais, and from the tubes I have, I would say Kenrads VT-231 staggered plates, are by far the ones that have the hardest hitting bass.
> 
> I got the black glass variant, but from what I read, it doesn't matter, only parallel plates vs staggered construction makes a difference, apparently.


Speaking of bass, the RFT's I am running make the Ken-Rad VT231 sound bass light and bloated.  Also, the earlier black glass KenRad is a bit darker sounding overall with stronger bass and more middbass bloom than the later clear glass version in my experience and I have had over 10 pairs of each over the years (they used to be one of my favs).  The clear glass have better treble extension though, and a bit more open staging as well.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> The RFT's I am running make the Ken-Rad VT231 sound bass light and bloated.  Also, the earlier black glass KenRad has stronger bass and more middbass bloom than the later clear glass version in my experience and I have had over 10 pairs of each over the years.  The clear glass have better treble extension though, and a bit bigger staging as well.



I think you are right when you say the kenrads can sound bloated, I don't run them with the elrogs, but I think it could be a great choice for the takatsukis and the gold lions

I should definitely try a pair of RFTs someday to compare with the melz1578, but for now in terms of bass, IMO the melz1578 don't hit as hard as the kenrads, but is more palatable and controlled with the elrogs. I found the melz 1578 to be a great pair of tubes with its excellent at treble presence and perceived soundstage, but I don't think I would say its my first choice if I needed a bass boost


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> Curious, have you heard the earliest version RFT 6SN7 with welded plates and ceramic spacers?  If so, I would love to know how they compare to the Melz, as that's the only 6SN7 I have not heard.  I often see mention of the Melz compared to all but the RFT, so you might be one of the only people I know of that has heard both.  I only know of one other person (of which is a kiler tube amp designer) who has heard both, and he preferred the RFT.
> 
> For reference, this is the version of RFT I am running pictured below.


The MELZ sound more balanced with better clarity, more staging depth and sweetness through midrange presence where the RFT sound more bombastic with more haze at the treble and flat dimension -- meeting a sort of Ken-Rad VT231 and TSBGRP cross. It is the supreme balance where the MELZ makes itself exceptionally special.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 16, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> The MELZ sound more balanced with better clarity, more staging depth and sweetness through midrange presence where the RFT sound more bombastic with more haze at the treble and flat dimension -- meeting a sort of Ken-Rad VT231 and TSBGRP cross. It is the supreme balance where the MELZ makes itself exceptionally special.


Sounds like I made the right choice, and I will be happily sticking with my RFT's.  Synergy and preferences are everything when it comes to tubes of this caliber, and thanks for the info.  The RFT's aren't the last word when it comes to stage expansion and the treble is smooth (how I like it), and I can counter the staging with a rectifier roll anyway, and love how bombastic and euphoric they are.  I think if I listened to classical or jazz, I might prefer the Melz 1578.  However, I listen to Bluegrass, Folk, and Jam Bands, and the RFT's highlight those types of music perfectly for my taste.


----------



## Demonis

Thank you all for the useful informations. 
I just order a pair of RFT tubes , probably in future I try Melz 1578.
Now I am just waiting to be everything delivered and after I am sharing my experience here. 
Also anyone rolled the emissionslab EML 300B Mesh tubes and how they are compared with Elrog 300B. They are just half price than Elrog’s.


----------



## Yggy

AcousticMatt said:


> How do you like this amp overall for Susvara?


Nothing I’ve heard has a sweeter tone than the HA-300 and Susvara combination. For gentle and elegant music, like vocal and acoustic pop, it’s unbeatable. For punchier and harder slamming music like EDM, bass-heavy pop, dance, hip hop, R&B, and rock the HA-300 and Susvara aren’t the optimal match. 

The Susvara scales with more power like no other headphone I’ve heard. With enough power, you can make the Susvara slam almost as hard as the Abyss 1266 Phi TC while retaining all its strengths. My little SMSL SA-400 Class D integrated amp easily beats the HA-300 with the Susvara for harder hitting music genres and cost me less than 10% of the cost of the HA-300 with upgraded tubes. The gain in dynamics and slam is worth the dial-down in sound stage, clarity, three-dimensionality, and tone. 

I prefer the Abyss 1266 Phi TC with the HA-300 than with the SA-400 for full-on music genres though. You still get plenty of slam and dynamics with the Phi TC and HA-300 combination, it’s not worth losing the beautiful tone of 300b tubes. When you speaker tap amp the Phi TC, it can be too much and not in a good way. The Susvara is technically stronger than the Phi TC and just keeps scaling. 

The relative weakness of the Phi TC are hollowed out mids and that’s where the HA-300 excels. AndyKong wasn’t convinced about the synergy of the TC drivers with 300b tubes. I like it, the Phi TC adds what 300b tubes struggle with, dynamics and slam, and the elegant and refined HA-300 makes the Phi TCs sound less ragged and more grown-up. 

To me ears, tube rolling the HA-300 just improves it’s incredible tone and refinement, the basic sound signature doesn’t change that much in comparison with switching between Susvaras and the Phi TC or from a tubed HA-300 to a solid state integrated amp like the SA-400 from the speaker taps. If you have very diverse tastes in music, you might be better off with the SA-400, or something like it, than another pair of tubes.


----------



## llamaluv

Yggy said:


> Nothing I’ve heard has a sweeter tone than the HA-300 and Susvara combination. For gentle and elegant music, like vocal and acoustic pop, it’s unbeatable. For punchier and harder slamming music like EDM, bass-heavy pop, dance, hip hop, R&B, and rock the HA-300 and Susvara aren’t the optimal match.
> 
> The Susvara scales with more power like no other headphone I’ve heard. With enough power, you can make the Susvara slam almost as hard as the Abyss 1266 Phi TC while retaining all its strengths. My little SMSL SA-400 Class D integrated amp easily beats the HA-300 with the Susvara for harder hitting music genres and cost me less than 10% of the cost of the HA-300 with upgraded tubes. The gain in dynamics and slam is worth the dial-down in sound stage, clarity, three-dimensionality, and tone.
> 
> ...


I think I agree with every point you've made here, very cool.


----------



## Zielarz

I have a problem with 1266 TC and HA-300 - soundstage can be too big on some type of music. Tracks that have big soundstage, like orchestra or live recordings, can sound like you are far away from the stage. They lose their lifelike character. That’s why for me 1266 on HA-300 are quite finicky - it can sound beautiful but also it can be not convincing enough. 

I much more prefer LCD-4 and LCD-5 with Cayin (yet with Fives the bass can be too weak, but I must check other tubes). I got 1266 the same day that Holo May and the combo May, HA-300 and LCD-4 made me listening to my old cans rather the new ‘toy’ . It has this presence like I’m with the musicians.


----------



## Yggy

Zielarz said:


> I have a problem with 1266 TC and HA-300 - soundstage can be too big on some type of music. Tracks that have big soundstage, like orchestra or live recordings, can sound like you are far away from the stage. They lose their lifelike character. That’s why for me 1266 on HA-300 are quite finicky - it can sound beautiful but also it can be not convincing enough.
> 
> I much more prefer LCD-4 and LCD-5 with Cayin (yet with Fives the bass can be too weak, but I must check other tubes). I got 1266 the same day that Holo May and the combo May, HA-300 and LCD-4 made me listening to my old cans rather the new ‘toy’ . It has this presence like I’m with the musicians.


If headphones were track athletes, the Abyss 1266 TC would be a 100m runner. Big, heavily muscled, and fast. It will run 100m in under 10 seconds but as the distance increases, it will get more heavy-footed. The 1266 TC pumps everything up, sometimes indelicately, so if the music is already big but requires delicacy like orchestral, it doesn’t always do such a great job. 

If 1266 TCs are 100m runners, Susvaras are decathletes. They can do everything to at least 8/10. Susvaras and HA-300 make everything sound beautiful. It’s a lovely non-fatiguing and highly detailed combination for classical music. 

I’m listening to John Williams Berlin Philharmoniker in 24 Bit 192.0 kHz FLAC. With Susvaras, you don’t get the 1266 TC’s special sauce splatter of sound stage echo and bloat with some orchestral music. 

If you listen to a lot of orchestral music, maybe consider the Sennheiser HD800S with the HA-300? That was the best value-for-money headphone I’ve listened to with the HA-300 and excelled at classical music.

I can hear the deficiencies of 1266 TCs with certain music genres and recordings but it entertains me more than other headphones and I listen to it the most.

I’m curious about the LCD4. How does it compare against the 1266 TC with the HA-300 for harder hitting music? I haven’t forgotten the headaches the LCD3 used to give me. It was the most uncomfortable headphone I’ve ever worn. Within 30-60 minutes the weight of the LCD3 slap bang on my head would hurt like hell. I tried a Lohb strap and it was better but not perfect. The 1266 TC looks ridiculous but I find it very comfortable. I have a big head and still have it on the tightest setting across the top. 

LCD3s got me into high-end headphones. I’d listen to Bullet In The Head by Rage Against The Machine and be completely blown away. I listen to Usher’s Hard II Love and Chris Brown’s X on 1266 TCs for the same thrill.


----------



## Zielarz

Yggy said:


> If 1266 TCs are 100m runners, Susvaras are decathletes. They can do everything to at least 8/10. Susvaras and HA-300 make everything sound beautiful. It’s a lovely non-fatiguing and highly detailed combination for classical music.


Yup, something like that. 1266 are great with some music but they aren't universally great, at least on HA-300. I bought Enleum about a month ago and it seems a better match for Abyss, but I still need to test this setup more. Soundstage is not a problem anymore (maybe sometimes it could be a bit bigger, but it need to test this more).



Yggy said:


> If you listen to a lot of orchestral music, maybe consider the Sennheiser HD800S with the HA-300? That was the best value-for-money headphone I’ve listened to with the HA-300 and excelled at classical music.


Thank you for recommendation. I have HD800S at my radar for the future (at least for testing). Still I'm really happy with LCD-4 and 5. Fours are my most favourite cans (at least from those that I have listened to), the most enjoyable ones. John Williams with them sounds great yet LCD-5 gives violines more life. But as allarounder LCD-4 are the best for me (with HA-300 and May).



Yggy said:


> I’m curious about the LCD4. How does it compare against the 1266 TC with the HA-300 for harder hitting music? I haven’t forgotten the headaches the LCD3 used to give me. It was the most uncomfortable headphone I’ve ever worn. Within 30-60 minutes the weight of the LCD3 slap bang on my head would hurt like hell. I tried a Lohb strap and it was better but not perfect. The 1266 TC looks ridiculous but I find it very comfortable. I have a big head and still have it on the tightest setting across the top.


For the setup that I have (HA-300 MkI with still stock Full Music 300B and Psvane Treasure Mark II CV181-TII) for me LCD4 and 1266 TC are similar in quality but different in presentation. They both hit hard but bass at Audeze is fuller and leaks to midds while Abyss are more tight. The midds are more pleasent with LCD-4 (those vocals and guitars), warmer and with better texture. Abyss has better trebel, but it can go too high at times (like just barely over the line) but Audeze has this sparkles (some instruments are a bit brighter and it makes them pop nicely). 1266TC are very detailed but so does the LCD-4. The difference is that Abyss portray those things more in your face then the Fours. Yet LCD-5 is doing it even more. The imagine is I think similar - I tested it a few times with DMS test track that he did for Abyss Youtube channel and it was quite similar even the flaws on both were. LCD-5 got it a bit better in those parts.

As for the weight I'm used to heavy Audeze cans - XC were my first heavy ones. I don't mind it becasue thanks to that I love how LCD-4 looks (wood and chrome grills). You have right that despite it's weight Abyss are comfortable (well the discomfort may come from the loose fitting becasue it's not what many cans do). My only gripe with it is the o-rings system. For this much money you got something this cheap and not reliable (it's funny that the world's most durable headphones have something like this).

All in all I like both, but LCD-4 are better for everyday listening. Also I think that Abyss will be better with Enleum but I'll see.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 23, 2022)

Zielarz said:


> I have a problem with 1266 TC and HA-300 - soundstage can be too big on some type of music. Tracks that have big soundstage, like orchestra or live recordings, can sound like you are far away from the stage. They lose their lifelike character. That’s why for me 1266 on HA-300 are quite finicky - it can sound beautiful but also it can be not convincing enough.
> 
> I much more prefer LCD-4 and LCD-5 with Cayin (yet with Fives the bass can be too weak, but I must check other tubes). I got 1266 the same day that Holo May and the combo May, HA-300 and LCD-4 made me listening to my old cans rather the new ‘toy’ . It has this presence like I’m with the musicians.


You should try some rolling some G.E. 22DE4 rectifiers, if you want to reign in the stage and bring the sound forward a bit.  The stock RCA rectifiers play a big roll in the expansive/diffused soundstage, but don't do the amp any favors when it comes to dynamics and bass slam/depth.  The G.E.'s really bring the dynamics and excitement to another level, and have incredible bass depth, texture and punch, and the sound is more lifelike and it sounds as if you are there in the front row.   The tubes can make a big difference if you roll the right ones (key factor), and another way to get what you are looking for is to roll in some Elrog ER300B's.   Both the Elrog power tubes and G.E. rectifiers will give you what you are looking for with the TC's.

The more time I spend with this amp rolling tubes, and then go back and read reviews, it's clear to me that they are simply describing the sound of the amp paired up with the stock tubes, and not necessarily the sound of the amp on it's own.  For instance, when I read huge stage and somewhat lacking in subbass, it's clear to me they did not roll any tubes, as that's what you get with the stock set.  Personally I don't think a tube amp should be reviewed without rolling tubes as they can make quite a difference, and reviewing the amp with just the stock tubes doesn't tell the whole story.


----------



## Demonis

G.E 22DE just arrived , I am looking forward tomorrow to try them .



I am coming back later with my opinion about this tubes , also a RFT and Kend-Rad it’s on the way .


----------



## Wes S (Sep 23, 2022)

Demonis said:


> G.E 22DE just arrived , I am looking forward tomorrow to try them .
> I am coming back later with my opinion about this tubes , also a RFT and Kend-Rad it’s on the way .


Nice!  Fun times ahead, and I look forward to hearing how they work out for you.


----------



## Erwinatm (Sep 23, 2022)

Wes S said:


> You should try some rolling some G.E. 22DE4 rectifiers, if you want to reign in the stage and bring the sound forward a bit.  The stock RCA rectifiers play a big roll in the expansive/diffused soundstage, but don't do the amp any favors when it comes to dynamics and bass slam/depth.  The G.E.'s really bring the dynamics and excitement to another level, and have incredible bass depth, texture and punch, and the sound is more lifelike and it sounds as if you are there in the front row.   The tubes can make a big difference if you roll the right ones (key factor), and another way to get what you are looking for is to roll in some Elrog ER300B's.   Both the Elrog power tubes and G.E. rectifiers will give you what you are looking for with the TC's.
> 
> The more time I spend with this amp rolling tubes, and then go back and read reviews, it's clear to me that they are simply describing the sound of the amp paired up with the stock tubes, and not necessarily the sound of the amp on it's own.  For instance, when I read huge stage and somewhat lacking in subbass, it's clear to me they did not roll any tubes, as that's what you get with the stock set.  Personally I don't think a tube amp should be reviewed without rolling tubes as they can make quite a difference, and reviewing the amp with just the stock tubes doesn't tell the whole story.


Yes same impression with me. 22DE4 GE bring the sound forward, bigger vocal image, smoother treble. 
I like em and will stay plugged in till they die 😉.

@Wes S thank you


----------



## yupio

Hi guys,
I am considering to upgrade my DAC currently using Chord Qutest connected to the HA300Mk2 via RCA, and I'm shortlisting Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE as I'd like to try R2R as well as wants to connect using XLR balanced.

Question to Holo users here, should I go with the one that comes with pre-amp or without? I don't really need the pre-amp function but concern about the output voltage as I understand higher voltage works better with the HA300, if it does not have pre-amp function, is the Spring 3 KTE's output voltage high enough for the HA300?


----------



## Zielarz

I have Holo May KTE, so in terms of voltage it's the same as Spring 3 without preamp. I love this combo. I'd like to have a preamp in May but for a convenience purpose (more precise volume control and a remote). For me Spring 3 would be best with the preamp.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Oct 3, 2022)

yupio said:


> Hi guys,
> I am considering to upgrade my DAC currently using Chord Qutest connected to the HA300Mk2 via RCA, and I'm shortlisting Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE as I'd like to try R2R as well as wants to connect using XLR balanced.
> 
> Question to Holo users here, should I go with the one that comes with pre-amp or without? I don't really need the pre-amp function but concern about the output voltage as I understand higher voltage works better with the HA300, if it does not have pre-amp function, is the Spring 3 KTE's output voltage high enough for the HA300?


I had a Spring 3 KTE with a preamp for the express purpose of using it with speaker amps + Susvara, IMO if you have no need for the preamp, I think its not needed at all.

I am currently using the may, it has the same 5.8 vrms output as the normal s3. Recommended spec is 4vrms officially, but as I have found out myself + tested by my dealer with the dcs unit at 6vrms, there is no need to attenuate the dac at this level.

Honestly I don't recall anyone stating  having a higher dac output is necessarily better, might even be worse at some point. But I think you will find the regular kte great enough.

Fyi the preamp in the s3 is not digital attenuation, its an analog preamp with 11.6vrms max, I think you might be turning it down regardless


----------



## mfgillia (Oct 3, 2022)

yupio said:


> Hi guys,
> I am considering to upgrade my DAC currently using Chord Qutest connected to the HA300Mk2 via RCA, and I'm shortlisting Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE as I'd like to try R2R as well as wants to connect using XLR balanced.
> 
> Question to Holo users here, should I go with the one that comes with pre-amp or without? I don't really need the pre-amp function but concern about the output voltage as I understand higher voltage works better with the HA300, if it does not have pre-amp function, is the Spring 3 KTE's output voltage high enough for the HA300?


I have the Cayin HA-300 MKII and Spring 3 KTE with pre-amp. Love both dearly and like you also debated back and forth whether to get the pre-amp version.

Very happy decided to stick with the pre-amp really just for the added convenience and flexibility. I also use this DAC with a set of powered speakers (KEF LSX) and find its much easier to adjust the volume on the Spring 3 than to reach for the KEF remote and suffer through the inevitable lag.

With that said, if you will only be using the Spring 3 with this Cayin then there's not really a pressing reason to get the pre-amp version. Some report the Cayin sounding better when the DAC delivers closer to it's maximum voltage of 6 volts, which the non-preamp version already does at 5.8. 

Plus, the volume control on this Cayin offers plenty of travel by itself with a wide range of headphones and IEMs though some report a much different experience on the HA-300's smaller brother - the HA-3A where I know of at least one Spring 3 owner who finds the pre-amp is proving invaluable with that particular amp.


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> You should try some rolling some G.E. 22DE4 rectifiers, if you want to reign in the stage and bring the sound forward a bit.  The stock RCA rectifiers play a big roll in the expansive/diffused soundstage, but don't do the amp any favors when it comes to dynamics and bass slam/depth.  The G.E.'s really bring the dynamics and excitement to another level, and have incredible bass depth, texture and punch, and the sound is more lifelike and it sounds as if you are there in the front row.   The tubes can make a big difference if you roll the right ones (key factor), and another way to get what you are looking for is to roll in some Elrog ER300B's.   Both the Elrog power tubes and G.E. rectifiers will give you what you are looking for with the TC's.
> 
> The more time I spend with this amp rolling tubes, and then go back and read reviews, it's clear to me that they are simply describing the sound of the amp paired up with the stock tubes, and not necessarily the sound of the amp on it's own.  For instance, when I read huge stage and somewhat lacking in subbass, it's clear to me they did not roll any tubes, as that's what you get with the stock set.  Personally I don't think a tube amp should be reviewed without rolling tubes as they can make quite a difference, and reviewing the amp with just the stock tubes doesn't tell the whole story.


I heard Elrog. Nods.


----------



## tinariwen

Does a higher voltage input really make that much of a difference? I’m currently using the Qutest as well and use it at its max output (3v). I’ve wondered if I’m giving the amp enough of what it needs to sound it’s best, particularly as I’m using it with Susvaras.


----------



## mfgillia (Oct 4, 2022)

tinariwen said:


> Does a higher voltage input really make that much of a difference? I’m currently using the Qutest as well and use it at its max output (3v). I’ve wondered if I’m giving the amp enough of what it needs to sound it’s best, particularly as I’m using it with Susvaras.


Myself, I don't have much actual first hand experience on whether DACs with higher or lower voltages provide better experiences out of different amps. I do generally feel this Cayin sounds better when the pre-amp is at higher levels but that could certainly be either higher volume bias or just ordinary placebo effect.

However, there are quite a few people who feel there is a strong connection. In Zach's video on the Lina stack he mentions this and believes his headphones sound better out of Cayin HA-300 MKII when the Lina DAC is set to output at the higher voltage of 6 Vrms.

More recently, Justin at Ampsandsound seems to also suggest this as well and that using active pre-amps with higher voltages may help his products sound their best. This is interesting because I also recall a much older post whereby he seemed to suggest adding an active pre-amp between the DAC and amp wasn't something he originally favored.


----------



## Stefano Z.

Just chiming in about the 6Vrms input... beware of volume steps then, because with yggdrasil at 4V with XLR, I have already too much jump between steps, in fact I went back to SE inputs. With 6V this may be too much


----------



## tinariwen

Stefano Z. said:


> Just chiming in about the 6Vrms input... beware of volume steps then, because with yggdrasil at 4V with XLR, I have already too much jump between steps, in fact I went back to SE inputs. With 6V this may be too much


That’s something I’ll definitely need to keep in mind. With 3V I listen at around 11-12 o’clock. 6V would give me way less play on the volume pot.


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## TOMY (Oct 4, 2022)

Hi all,

I read this thread for a few weeks then I decided to buy HA300MkII. Unfortunately the first unit which is black color has no sound on the right channel, I tried to fix it by changed fuse and switched 300B tube as in the manual but it doesn't help.

The dealer offered me to change the silver unit as below photo which is running normally and its sound was stunning to me. Anyway last night I found that with XLR output, I can hear hiss from HA300MkII noticeable while there is no hiss in single end mode. My room background is managed by electric system separately for audio components (ground, wired, etc.) I tried to change power cables, changed audio grade receptacle position and I also used power conditioners (Shunyata, SOtM) but hiss is still there. It will be more loud when change impedance selector to be more ohm.

I acknowledged that tube amp could be make some hiss on sensitive headphones (in this case I have only 2 headphones -D8000 and Meze Elite) but previously I use both headphones with HA-3A and there is no hiss issue. This is another reason that I bought HA300MkII because I liked HA-3A very much and I confidence on Cayin amp quality.

My source is Roon nucleus, SOtM set up (sms200ultra and network switching) all are powered by PLiXiR DC power supply , Dac is PONTUSII and many cables (Nordost, Shunyata and Synergistic research). I also owned Woo Wes which never have hiss issue.

I bought many Cayin products (N8, N8 Brass black, N8ii, N6ii Ti, C9), once in the past I got a defect N8ii with broken screen anyway I thought it can be happen with electronic device sometimes and dealer service is extremely good for me. They changed unit immediately.

So my doubt

1. is it normal that I can hear hiss from Cayin HA300mkII noticeable with XLR (I prefer to use XLR output for this amp) or
2. I have got another defect amp again which make me upset right now. I am located in Thailand.

Any helps or suggestions are more than welcome.

Best,
Tom


----------



## Wes S (Oct 5, 2022)

TOMY said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I read this thread for a few weeks then I decided to buy HA300MkII. Unfortunately the first unit which is black color has no sound on the right channel, I tried to fix it by changed fuse and switched 300B tube as in the manual but it doesn't help.
> 
> ...


I would try and move the power supply further away from the amp.  I found that if the connections of the cable connecting the power supply to the amp are close to each other I got a bit of hiss with my VC's (of which pick up noise if it's there like no other).  Once I moved them further apart it's nothing but silence.  That's what worked for me, so might be worth a try.  It could be the tubes as well, and perhaps you might try swapping the rectifiers around, or rolling tubes.  Tube amps can be a challenge with sensitive and revealing headphones, and I have yet to actually own one that did not require tweaking (tube rolling, cable management) and proper placement to run quiet.

For reference, here's how far apart mine are.





Hope that helps.


----------



## steve468

I have a hissy high noise floor in my mk. 1, and in my case it seems to be directly related to the 6sn7 tubes. I’ve had good luck with Sylvania tubes, both VT-231 and Baldwin branded GTB. I also have a pair of RCA VT-231 that’s also a bit quieter than stock. Maybe try switching the 6sn7 tubes?

But if your issue is high noise floor, I wouldn’t worry. You’re not alone. There seems to be complaints of hiss for lots of tube amps. I think it’s just a product of high power and tubes.


----------



## JeffMann

steve468 said:


> I have a hissy high noise floor in my mk. 1, and in my case it seems to be directly related to the 6sn7 tubes. I’ve had good luck with Sylvania tubes, both VT-231 and Baldwin branded GTB. I also have a pair of RCA VT-231 that’s also a bit quieter than stock. Maybe try switching the 6sn7 tubes?
> 
> But if your issue is high noise floor, I wouldn’t worry. You’re not alone. There seems to be complaints of hiss for lots of tube amps. I think it’s just a product of high power and tubes.


I cannot understand how one can justify the presence of a hiss noise problem with the Cayin HA-300 MK2 headphone amplifier if it is capable of being noise-free. A number of forum members have stated that they can turn the volume control all the way up and the amp is still dead-silent. That surely means that a *properly functioning* Cayin HA-300 MK2 headphone amplifier *with its stock tubes *should be silent and free of hiss. Wes stated that having the power supply unit too close to the main amplifier unit can cause hiss, but that is easy to remedy. However, I cannot accept that a new owner has to be obliged to personally pay for replacing the supplied stock tubes if they are the actual cause of the hiss. In fact, how would he even know that the stock tubes are defective and the cause of the hiss if he doesn't own replacement stock tubes? Also, how is it possible that Tomy's first unit had a dead right channel? Doesn't Cayin fully test the units before shipment to ensure that they are not defective and noise-free?

Jeff.


----------



## steve468

JeffMann said:


> I cannot understand how one can justify the presence of a hiss noise problem with the Cayin HA-300 MK2 headphone amplifier if it is capable of being noise-free. A number of forum members have stated that they can turn the volume control all the way up and the amp is still dead-silent. That surely means that a *properly functioning* Cayin HA-300 MK2 headphone amplifier *with its stock tubes *should be silent and free of hiss. Wes stated that having the power supply unit too close to the main amplifier unit can cause hiss, but that is easy to remedy. However, I cannot accept that a new owner has to be obliged to personally pay for replacing the supplied stock tubes if they are the actual cause of the hiss. In fact, how would he even know that the stock tubes are defective and the cause of the hiss if he doesn't own replacement stock tubes? Also, how is it possible that Tomy's first unit had a dead right channel? Doesn't Cayin fully test the units before shipment to ensure that they are not defective and noise-free?
> 
> Jeff.


Sorry, I should have also mentioned that the stock tubes, at least for me, were pretty quiet. It's only when I started tube rolling when I noticed the difference in tubes. 

But the hiss is there, especially with sensitive 'phones on high impedance (most power on this amp). This is similar to my experience with other high power amps and high sensitivity headphones.


----------



## JeffMann (Oct 5, 2022)

steve468 said:


> Sorry, I should have also mentioned that the stock tubes, at least for me, were pretty quiet. It's only when I started tube rolling when I noticed the difference in tubes.
> 
> But the hiss is there, especially with sensitive 'phones on high impedance (most power on this amp). This is similar to my experience with other high power amps and high sensitivity headphones.


I am aware that high sensitivity phones are more inclined to hiss if they are used on the high impedance setting. However, what is one supposed to do if one owns a Sennheiser HD800 headphone. It is a highly sensitive headphone that has a high impedance of 300ohm. Should one conclude that it is going to inevitably have a hiss problem when used with the Cayin HA-300 MK2 headphone amplifier if one chooses the high impedance setting? Can one avoid that potential hiss problem by choosing the low impedance setting? Then, what effect will it have with respect to the HD800's frequency response output?

Another non-noise question about the choice of the appropriate impedance setting. Presuming that one wants to use the HA-300 to efficiently power a Susvara headphone, which is very insensitive. To get the maximum potential power of 6W, one needs to use the high impedance setting and not the low/medium impedance setting which limits the potential power output to ~2w when using a balanced XLR connection. However, what effect will that high impedance setting have on the frequency response output of the Susvara headphone, which has a low impedance of 60 ohms?

Jeff.


----------



## steve468

JeffMann said:


> I am aware that high sensitivity phones are more inclined to hiss if they are used on the high impedance setting. However, what is one supposed to do if one owns a Sennheiser HD800 headphone. It is a highly sensitive headphone that has a high impedance of 300ohm. Should one conclude that it is going to inevitably have a hiss problem when used with the Cayin HA-300 MK2 headphone amplifier if one chooses the high impedance setting? Can one avoid that potential hiss problem by choosing the low impedance setting? Then, what effect will it have with respect to the HD800's frequency response output?
> 
> Another non-noise question about the choice of the appropriate impedance setting. Presuming that one wants to use the HA-300 to efficiently power a Susvara headphone, which is very insensitive. To get the maximum potential power of 6W, one needs to use the high impedance setting and not the low/medium impedance setting which limits the potential power output to ~2w when using a balanced XLR connection. However, what effect will that high impedance setting have on the frequency response output of the Susvara headphone, which has a low impedance of 60 ohms?
> 
> Jeff.


In my experience choosing the impedance is not so simple as sticking in the recommended range. I often use the medium setting for my 300ohm headphones, which include the HD800s. I also prefer the high setting for my LCD-4, which is fairly high ohm but outside the recommended range. Unfortunately I personally don't have a low-ohm low sensitivity set to test the effect on sound.

I will say that if you only want to power a HD800s, you might be better off with an OTL which generally have low power output. I have a Bottlehead Crackatwoa on hand, and in some ways it's just as good as the HA-300 for the Sennheiser and ZMFs.


----------



## TOMY

Thanks to Wes, Steve and Jeff for helps and suggestions.

Finally I tried some experiments by 

- Disconnect all power cables in my system and also the interconnect to HA300 and plug in power cable only for HA300, high noise floor is still there
- Move power supply far away to amps as much as possible, high noise floor is still there
- Switch the tube 6sn7 between channel R-L (unfortunately I didn't have any tubes for rolling yet), high noise floor is still there
- I also found that with 6.3 mm single end, there is also high noise floor but noise is lower than XLR output

I think it's not normal for my 2nd HA300MkII that have this high noise floor, it could be that amp is malfunction. 

I decide to return the 2nd unit to dealer again and see what they say. 

Thank you once again.
Tom


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## ARCXENOS (Oct 7, 2022)

if its a QC issue, what I will say next probably won't make a difference, do check with your dealers

personally on my setup, using my HD600 and IER-Z1R for comparison (since the planars have an absolutely black background) :

- *4.4mm *> XLR > 6.35mm for background noise, the difference from 4.4mm vs XLR is actually very big IMO, the *4.4mm has a lower output as per the specs*, so I do suggest trying it out first if you have a 4.4mm cable around.
- *both power and driver tubes* appear to affect the noise

imo in my setup testing via *XLR*, it appears that the power tubes affect the noise more than the drivers. It is possible to achieve a quiet background on the HD600 using the stock tungsols (and my other noisier pair, the sylvania gtb) with the elrog.

However, I* WOULD NOT suggest going 300b rolling immediately* though, as the right pair of drivers + stock gold lions can get the same performance in terms of the noise

I think it sucks that you need to fix this yourself especially since the amp cost so much (relatively for a chifi offering), it should be working nicely out of the box. No one should need to jump this many hoops for good performance. I suggest also demoing the amp at your dealer's to verify the noise floor yourself. I demoed the Focal Utopia and Fostex th900 mk2 at my dealer's and do not recall the background noise being noticeable, maybe there might be QC issues?

ymmv, maybe its other things in the chain or qc problems at work again, but I believe it is possible to get a quiet experience with the amp. Best of luck.


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## TheMiddleSky

Store condition may have (huge) different than our private listening room. We become more sensitive with noise floor in quiet room.


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## JeffMann

TOMY said:


> Thanks to Wes, Steve and Jeff for helps and suggestions.
> 
> Finally I tried some experiments by
> 
> ...


Tom,

I think that your decision to return the amp is correct because it is unacceptable to have a hiss noise problem when listening to music.

Here is the most recent authoritative review of the Cayin HA300MK2 amp - https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/

He tested the amp with large variety of headphones and he never stated that there was a noise problem with any of those many headphones.

Here is a review by John Grandberg of the MK1 model - https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/cayin-ha300.23823/reviews

John stated-: "_As a general overview, I find the HA-300 extremely quiet if not silent like my Pass Labs HPA-1. When I crank the Cayin's volume knob to full blast I can hear the slightest indication of vague background noise. This will vary depending on tube choice and I'm sure my balanced power conditioner helps lower noise floor, but overall I'd call this top notch performance from a tube amp. In my experience, SS amps seem to have more potential for complete silence, but Cayin comes pretty close to that ideal with the HA-300."_

Note that he praised the amp for having a very low noise level, which was very faint when the volume control is maxed-out. However, that means there should be no noise at normal listening levels when actually listening to music.

I believe that in the absence of dirty power or a faulty tube, the Cayin HA300Mk2 amp should be expected to be noise-free and there is no reason why you should not return the amp if it is the true cause of the noise problem.

Jeff.


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## Stefano Z.

I have the HA-3A and the HA-300 side by side. Noise wise they are all very quite amp, no hiss at all. Some slight hum maybe, but really I had many tube amps from different brands and that kind of noise is more or less present. I consider my two amps from quite to DEAD quite depending on headphones sensitivity. My experiences:
1) Out of the box, the 300 had (and still has a bit) of time variant hum. Like HUUUMM for 30 sec from the supply unit, then stops, then again... With the first 100h it's almost gone. Maybe tubes need to settle regarding also the load they give to the supply.
2) One day had much more HUM than usual --> it was my jot being ON close to the Cayin. Turned off, got almost no noise again. So beware of your surrounding (baby monitors, other amps, etc)
2) Planars (LCDs, ether 2 etc) are DEAD quite.
3) ZMFs have some VERY slight hum (no hiss), depending on the output impedance choice. But even in very low volume passages, cannot hear it. With MID setting, it's 99% gone.

IMHO you cannot expect a SS noise level with tubes, just like the amp is off. But to me, both (mine) cayins are well below acceptable noise level and well below other competitors.
To me, both amps are excellent if you consider this noise level plus all the options they give, the performance ofc, the beauty etc. E.g. for me their channel matching and stereo image level is top notch, and I can disconnect all my SE headphones just moving the selector to the another output without fear of damaging the amp.


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## msq123

Is there such a thing that you can’t let SET amps run without any headphone connected and music playing? I heard this but I am not sure if this is true?
Also, the cage is just health and safety and have no implication for RF around the house causing noise?
Cheers


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## ThanatosVI

msq123 said:


> Is there such a thing that you can’t let SET amps run without any headphone connected and music playing? I heard this but I am not sure if this is true?
> Also, the cage is just health and safety and have no implication for RF around the house causing noise?
> Cheers


There are amps that you shouldnt run without anything connected to them, the majority nowadays has no problems with that though.

The cage is only for health and safety. No implications on noise


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## msq123

ThanatosVI said:


> There are amps that you shouldnt run without anything connected to them, the majority nowadays has no problems with that though.
> 
> The cage is only for health and safety. No implications on noise


Cheers that’s good to know. I just got my 300 mk2  and want to start on the right foot


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## helljudgement

Stefano Z. said:


> IMHO you cannot expect a SS noise level with tubes, just like the amp is off.


I've been listening with tube amps for years and have tried plenty of amps that are noisy and also amps that are completely silent, as good as any solid state amps out there. Not unreasonable to expect no perceivable level of noise performance at all especially when I've tried SET amps less than half the price of the Cayin that have zero noise/hiss even with most iems let alone headphones. If we're reading @TOMY's comment right, hiss only occur with XLR output and there isn't any with SE output which is indicative that there is something going on with that output. His frustration is definitely understandable and justified especially since this was his second amp. I've tried a few different mk1 units with varying degrees of noise performance and I'm disappointed with Cayin's inconsistency with noise performance. A pity as this at it's best is a very capable of making a great sounding system.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 8, 2022)

helljudgement said:


> I've been listening with tube amps for years and have tried plenty of amps that are noisy and also amps that are completely silent, as good as any solid state amps out there. Not unreasonable to expect no perceivable level of noise performance at all especially when I've tried SET amps less than half the price of the Cayin that have zero noise/hiss even with most iems let alone headphones. If we're reading @TOMY's comment right, hiss only occur with XLR output and there isn't any with SE output which is indicative that there is something going on with that output. His frustration is definitely understandable and justified especially since this was his second amp. I've tried a few different mk1 units with varying degrees of noise performance and I'm disappointed with Cayin's inconsistency with noise performance. A pity as this at it's best is a very capable of making a great sounding system.


I have had several tube amps and have followed many tube amp threads over the years, and almost all of the threads (tube amps) have some complaints of noise issues.  I find often it's the more powerful tube amps that people have the most issues with, and I think the inconsistencies with New Production tubes and poor placement of the amp and cables combined with the added power, is what causes people with easy to drive headphones to have more issues.

This amp was designed to be powerful enough to run the Susvara (amp designer's favorite headphone) and sensitive speakers to their full potential, and that's where it's probably most optimal.  So with that said, if you are planning on using this amp to drive sensitive headphones off the XLR output, everything has to be dialed in, as in tubes need to be quiet, and amp and cables need to be isolated from any possible causes of noise (router, lights, etc.)  I imagine Cayin probably thought most would run their hard to drive headphones off the balanced XLR output and their more sensitive headphones off the 1/4" or 4.4mm outputs, and if that was the case there would be way less issues.  That being said, many others and I myself prefer the sound out of the XLR output regardless of how hard the headphones are to drive, so the chances of getting noise are greater and I think that's why we are hearing about noise issues more often.

I really wish Cayin could check the tubes for noise before they put them in the amps for sale, and perhaps there would be way less complaints.  I have actually had 2 units (first one developed a faulty meter and was returned), and both came with noisy new production tubes.  The first unit had noisy stock 300B's and my second unit had noisy 6SN7's, and once I rolled in my own tubes both units became much quieter.

Tube amps can be tricky and especially one's with a lot of power on tap like the HA300mk2, but they can be so very rewarding once you get them dialed in.  This amp is flat out magical with quiet tubes and proper placement, and I am happy to call it my endgame.


----------



## tinariwen

I had three different HA-6A amps, and had hiss / noise with all of them when using my ZMF cans.

I found that certain headphones emphasised the problem (the VCs were the biggest culprit), whereas the noise was barely noticeable with Aeolus and Atrium. So to some degree, frequency response must play a role.

I rolled an awful lot of tubes with that amp, and whilst some were better than others, there was no rhyme or reason to it. One set of RCA Clear Tops were perfectly silent, and another were some of the noisiest tubes I had. It was a crap shoot in that regard, which made dialling in tubes very difficult.

The reason I’m sharing all of this is that I eventually found a solution. There’s a user on here called “Skedra” (I think he makes Viking Cables), who made me an impedance adapter for the XLR output. It made the amp totally silent, gave me way more play on the volume pot, and meant I could roll any tube I wanted. I couldn’t perceive any loss in performance either, although I never measured anything.

I think it was around £120 when he made it for me last year, and it was a total godsend. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe users with severe problems should have to fork out more money to fix the problem, but if you’re set on keeping the amp and don’t want to run the tube lottery, it’s a great way to permanently fix the problem.


----------



## msq123

tinariwen said:


> I had three different HA-6A amps, and had hiss / noise with all of them when using my ZMF cans.
> 
> I found that certain headphones emphasised the problem (the VCs were the biggest culprit), whereas the noise was barely noticeable with Aeolus and Atrium. So to some degree, frequency response must play a role.
> 
> ...


 can you pls explain what an impedance adapter is or if you could share a picture?  I am not experiencing a lot of noise but it is not totally silent either so maybe something I could look into.

cheers


----------



## msq123

Cayin HA-300 mk2, where do I start - this thing is POWERFUL compared to my pendant or any other tube amp I have tried.  Everything about it is next tier coming from Pendant, more natural timbre, wider SS, precise imaging and less noisy, even speed with VOs is better and pendant is fast for a tube amp).  I have spent most of my time with Atrium, switching with VOs occasionally.  Atrium sounds fantastic on SS and I didn’t see much gain on pendant but Cayin surely flush out the best of atriums.

Mids are the centrepiece here, and ZMF 3d staging goes on steroids with Cayin in a good way.  Vocals surely stand out but bass is no slouch, doesn’t hit extremely low but is tight and sound substantial when called for. Treble rolls off but that’s atrium in general, will need some more time with other headphones.  

I am curious what can be done with some different set of 300b tubes, but stock are a good baseline and I think some time should be spent with stock to appreciate changes with rolling.  I would have loved to A-B this with Envy which is very similar 300b based amp and probably won’t break your back to carry up a flight of stairs.


----------



## tinariwen

msq123 said:


> can you pls explain what an impedance adapter is or if you could share a picture?  I am not experiencing a lot of noise but it is not totally silent either so maybe something I could look into.
> 
> cheers


I don’t have it anymore as I sold it with the HA-6A when I upgraded to the HA-300mk2, so I can’t provide a picture. It’s a short cable, maybe 30cm in length, with an male XLR on one end, and a female XLR on the other. It sits between your headphones cable and the amp itself.

I’m not going to pretend I know exactly how it works and someone else can probably explain it better, but I think there are resistors in one of the XLR plugs which changes how the amp sees the headphones impedance. It’s really only useful (and intended) for sensitive headphones, as I never had the noise problem with Susvara. Either way, it had the desired effect, and it made the amp as silent as any SS amp I’ve owned.


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## llamaluv

Congrats. It's nice to see comparisons of the HA-300 with other tube amps which are known quantities.



msq123 said:


> I am curious what can be done with some different set of 300b tubes



Don't visit this thread unless you want to be drawn into buying some Elrog 300B's, that's all I can say, lol.


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## zach915m (Oct 8, 2022)

helljudgement said:


> I've been listening with tube amps for years and have tried plenty of amps that are noisy and also amps that are completely silent, as good as any solid state amps out there. Not unreasonable to expect no perceivable level of noise performance at all especially when I've tried SET amps less than half the price of the Cayin that have zero noise/hiss even with most iems let alone headphones. If we're reading @TOMY's comment right, hiss only occur with XLR output and there isn't any with SE output which is indicative that there is something going on with that output. His frustration is definitely understandable and justified especially since this was his second amp. I've tried a few different mk1 units with varying degrees of noise performance and I'm disappointed with Cayin's inconsistency with noise performance. A pity as this at it's best is a very capable of making a great sounding system.





tinariwen said:


> I had three different HA-6A amps, and had hiss / noise with all of them when using my ZMF cans.
> 
> I found that certain headphones emphasised the problem (the VCs were the biggest culprit), whereas the noise was barely noticeable with Aeolus and Atrium. So to some degree, frequency response must play a role.
> 
> ...


I posted this over on the HA3a thread and will post here as well:

*There isn't one answer to getting a quiet tube system but the most useful thing I've found is trying different tubes. Sometimes for whatever reason certain tubes are quieter in certain environments. Aside from that having your local electrician come and make a breaker in your house that only runs your audio gear, and isn't connected to anything else in your house. Paying your electrician to do this will cost less than most "noise blocking" audiophile gear, and do a better job.

Lastly, I think a lot of us get caught up to listening to sweeps, tones, silence while moving the volume knob around and all the like, at some point you've gotta throw the music on and see how much your actually affected, or give in to the fact that you might need to do something like use a 4.4 with some headphones.*

_*There's a solution to most of this stuff, but it can be hard sometimes to admit that we are getting in the way of our enjoyment more than the gear might be sometimes. It's this way with every tube Amp I've ever used or sold, regardless of the manufacturer, this is not a Cayin issue, it's a tube Amp issue.*_

I also want to add on to this, this isn't to say anyone is or isn't having noise in your amp that isn't bothering you or affecting your enjoyment.  But what I want to make 100% clear, is that in my experience of having travelled, sold, and owned a TON of tube amps by just about every major manufacturer, I can guarantee you this IS NOT a cayin thing what-so-ever.  Between the 15-20 units I personally have tested, they have all worked perfectly and been silent in my shop and in my house.  When I travel, go to other people's houses, use unknown tubes etc etc, ANY tube amp is going to possibly come up with some noise issues.  It's just the nature of the beast.  You may even have had tube amps in your house that worked perfectly before, but can't get a certain tube amp to work quietly for whatever reason.  Tube amps are finicky, and the fixes to theses things are many and varied based on the amp and all other myriad of factors.  Please though, do not blame Cayin, and then go buy another tube amp, find it quiet, and believe that Cayin is to blame, that just means XYZ tube amp is more compatible with your environment and/or gear.

Here's the other post I made in the 3A thread of which is also pertinent:

*If you haven't owned a pure tube Amp (hybrid amps with solid state sections like a LYR etc don't count) than you're expectations can't be that a system running completely on vacuum tubes are going to be dead silent. Tube amps will vary a TON based on the system they are used in, and many tube amp owners like myself spend a lot of money and effort to make sure that our system is quiet. This goes all the way from different power strips and sources (I have monster strips as well as the decware isolator and other voltage regulators) to properly shielded rca cables, to balanced to single ended converters and the list goes on. All tube amps vary a lot in design and are never going to be as plug and play as much cheaper solid state gear, and one thing that works for one may not work for another.*

_*A lot of people who really love tube amps, have spent a lot of time to make their systems work for such tube amps. But that effort is something that should be considered. The Cayin ha-3a is the best gateway drug to this world, but behold, if you end up liking it, you may end up on an expensive and possibly rewarding journey, that may also lead to some frustrations.*_

I only mention a lot of the above, because what has happened to us numerous times, with the various tube amps we've sold from a few manufacturers including Decware, ampsandsound, Cayin and some personal amps I've had, is that we will sell the amp, and then I try to tell the owner that I can test the amp when we get it back, but that I can't guarantee that it will make noise at my shop.  Then the owner gets mad thinking I am gaslighting them, when in truth, the same amp can perform drastically different in different environments with different gear.  If you want to take the plunge into tube amps, please be ready for this to possibly happen.  It is rewarding though when it works!  


msq123 said:


> Cayin HA-300 mk2, where do I start - this thing is POWERFUL compared to my pendant or any other tube amp I have tried.  Everything about it is next tier coming from Pendant, more natural timbre, wider SS, precise imaging and less noisy, even speed with VOs is better and pendant is fast for a tube amp).  I have spent most of my time with Atrium, switching with VOs occasionally.  Atrium sounds fantastic on SS and I didn’t see much gain on pendant but Cayin surely flush out the best of atriums.
> 
> Mids are the centrepiece here, and ZMF 3d staging goes on steroids with Cayin in a good way.  Vocals surely stand out but bass is no slouch, doesn’t hit extremely low but is tight and sound substantial when called for. Treble rolls off but that’s atrium in general, will need some more time with other headphones.
> 
> I am curious what can be done with some different set of 300b tubes, but stock are a good baseline and I think some time should be spent with stock to appreciate changes with rolling.  I would have loved to A-B this with Envy which is very similar 300b based amp and probably won’t break your back to carry up a flight of stairs.



I have the Envy as well, they are both absolutely fantastic 300b amps.  Let us know if you do some tube rolling, and I am still on the hunt for "the" expensive 300b tube to buy.  It seems like everyone loves the Elrog tubes.  Maybe that will be the way.  Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?


----------



## zach915m

Finally finished my 300b unboxing video, sorry for the wait.


----------



## mfgillia (Oct 8, 2022)

zach915m said:


> Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?


Great posts above - very informative! Parts Connexion is very popular and where I got mine: https://www.partsconnexion.com/


----------



## mfgillia (Oct 8, 2022)

Edit: Double post - added some pictures with the Elrog 300Bs instead. They are tall and won't fit with the cage on without some help.


----------



## paradoxper

zach915m said:


> I have the Envy as well, they are both absolutely fantastic 300b amps.  Let us know if you do some tube rolling, and I am still on the hunt for "the" expensive 300b tube to buy.  It seems like everyone loves the Elrog tubes.  Maybe that will be the way.  Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?


Elrog has supply issue through 2022. PxC will receive stock at the end of the month.


----------



## TOMY (Oct 9, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> Tom,
> 
> I think that your decision to return the amp is correct because it is unacceptable to have a hiss noise problem when listening to music.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jeff,

Yesterday dealer team came to my home and made some trial with HA300Mk2, they also brought the first black unit for tube rolling testing between 2 amps (I just realized that they have only these 2 units in Thailand). As a result both amps have noise noticeably and they agreed that amps could be malfunction. Fortunately the black unit which is my first one has no sound on right channel still even if we switched tubes and changed fuses between both units.

Finally I return the unit to them as I said and they will talk to Cayin to find the causes. So I closed my issues and waiting for new unit (if they still order this model to Thailand). It's a pity that I like its sound very much but ok... we never know.

Best,
Tom


----------



## ColSaulTigh

mfgillia said:


> Great posts above - very informative! Parts Connexion is very popular and where I got mine: https://www.partsconnexion.com/


----------



## Wes S

zach915m said:


> Finally finished my 300b unboxing video, sorry for the wait.



Great video Zach!


----------



## msq123

zach915m said:


> I have the Envy as well, they are both absolutely fantastic 300b amps.  Let us know if you do some tube rolling, and I am still on the hunt for "the" expensive 300b tube to buy.  It seems like everyone loves the Elrog tubes.  Maybe that will be the way.  Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?




Two days in 300b and I have already had couple of recommendations for the great Elrog, definitely going to look in to them and figure out where best to buy them in the UK unless you plan to stock them like you used to do some tubes for Pendant.  

Thanks for the video you dropped, very timely.  I want to spend some time with the stock tubes to help me understand this amp a little better and have a baseline before I go rolling.  Going with your recommendation in the video I might start with 6SN7,  intrigued by your suggestion to try 12AX7 with a converter, I love rolling those on Pendant and could try some Mullards to start with.  Start of an interesting journey and definitely looking forward.

Can I ask how is Caldera on Cayin 300, have heard so many good things already and I think they will pair nicely with my Atriums and maybe VOs need to go?  It was a shame we didn't have you at London Canjam but hopefully next year.


----------



## Wes S

zach915m said:


> I posted this over on the HA3a thread and will post here as well:
> 
> *There isn't one answer to getting a quiet tube system but the most useful thing I've found is trying different tubes. Sometimes for whatever reason certain tubes are quieter in certain environments. Aside from that having your local electrician come and make a breaker in your house that only runs your audio gear, and isn't connected to anything else in your house. Paying your electrician to do this will cost less than most "noise blocking" audiophile gear, and do a better job.
> 
> ...


Amen brother, this post is fantastic!

As others have already mentioned, the Elrog's are where it's at.


----------



## msq123

Wes S said:


> Amen brother!
> 
> As others have already mentioned, the Elrog's are where it's at.




I have watched part of your pendant journey and really appreciate all the experiences you shared, it was all very helpful and will be looking through your posts here when I am ready to roll.  Wondering if you have a post summarising characteristics of various tubes for this amp?  I know this is all subjective so a ranking isn't feasible but would be great to have an idea of general characteristics and pairing suggestions from someone who has done this far longer than most of us. cheers


----------



## Wes S

msq123 said:


> I have watched part of your pendant journey and really appreciate all the experiences you shared, it was all very helpful and will be looking through your posts here when I am ready to roll.  Wondering if you have a post summarising characteristics of various tubes for this amp?  I know this is all subjective so a ranking isn't feasible but would be great to have an idea of general characteristics and pairing suggestions from someone who has done this far longer than most of us. cheers


Glad you found my post in the Pendant thread helpful!  I have not gone into as much detail in this thread when it comes to tube rolling, but have done my fair share with this amp as well, and I will share my thoughts on all the tubes I have rolled in the HA300mk2 as soon as I get a chance.  

This amp sure is a nice step up from the Pendant SE even with just the stock tubes, and once you roll in some "better" tubes it scales beyond belief, so fun times ahead for you no doubt.


----------



## project86

Switching gears a little from the tube and noise discussion, I wanted to point out that Cayin has a new high-end DAC which should pair beautifully with the HA-300 and HA300-mk2. It's called the CS-100DAC and I just started a thread about it.

Anyone with experience using their smaller iDAC-6 models (and their DAPs too, now that I think about it) knows how Cayin can do a great job on the digital side as well. The CS-100DAC is a real tank! Bonus points for being sold by our friendly ZMF proprietor.


----------



## ThanatosVI

project86 said:


> Switching gears a little from the tube and noise discussion, I wanted to point out that Cayin has a new high-end DAC which should pair beautifully with the HA-300 and HA300-mk2. It's called the CS-100DAC and I just started a thread about it.
> 
> Anyone with experience using their smaller iDAC-6 models (and their DAPs too, now that I think about it) knows how Cayin can do a great job on the digital side as well. The CS-100DAC is a real tank! Bonus points for being sold by our friendly ZMF proprietor.


It's not exactly new. Been released 2018 
However that doesn't make it any worse


----------



## project86

Yeah I guess it isn't "new" in a technical sense... but also there has been very little info about it - certainly not the big launch Cayin has done with their headphone amps and DAPs. Until Zach discovered it and started selling it, I had barely noticed it existed. 

Cayin has what I feel is a very odd separation between their "personal audio" and "traditional hifi" categories. Like have you ever noticed they don't really market a lot of their gear, outside of the DAPs and the headphone stuff? At least they don't in the North American market. The iDAP-6/iDAC-6 were the exceptions, likely because they matched with the desktop-oriented iHA-6. But they have some really nice CD players and other stuff which seems nearly impossible to find (again, in my region at least). 

The CS-100DAC is now available here through ZMF and I feel it is extremely competitive in the sub-$5k price range. And maybe beyond, for that matter.


----------



## zach915m

project86 said:


> Yeah I guess it isn't "new" in a technical sense... but also there has been very little info about it - certainly not the big launch Cayin has done with their headphone amps and DAPs. Until Zach discovered it and started selling it, I had barely noticed it existed.
> 
> Cayin has what I feel is a very odd separation between their "personal audio" and "traditional hifi" categories. Like have you ever noticed they don't really market a lot of their gear, outside of the DAPs and the headphone stuff? At least they don't in the North American market. The iDAP-6/iDAC-6 were the exceptions, likely because they matched with the desktop-oriented iHA-6. But they have some really nice CD players and other stuff which seems nearly impossible to find (again, in my region at least).
> 
> The CS-100DAC is now available here through ZMF and I feel it is extremely competitive in the sub-$5k price range. And maybe beyond, for that matter.



I bought one on a whim because I was interested in it, and was shocked at how great a unit it is.  I do think it just wasn't "proposed" to the headphone community as a viable DAC, but I have tested it against everything else we have and have had for demo, and it holds up SQ wise no problem, with the added benefit of having tubes in the chain or not, as well as a lot of filters that I still haven't wrapped my head around.


----------



## project86

I guess some companies might still separate their 2-channel gear vs personal audio gear, and maybe they don't think there would be much interchange between those two lines? I dunno, personally I've seen (exclusively) headphone users try just about every crazy DAC on the market, so I don't think there's an upper limit.

But I agree, I've got maybe 9 high-end DACs here in the $2k-10k range, and the CS-100DAC is one of my favorites so far.


----------



## ThanatosVI

project86 said:


> Yeah I guess it isn't "new" in a technical sense... but also there has been very little info about it - certainly not the big launch Cayin has done with their headphone amps and DAPs. Until Zach discovered it and started selling it, I had barely noticed it existed.
> 
> Cayin has what I feel is a very odd separation between their "personal audio" and "traditional hifi" categories. Like have you ever noticed they don't really market a lot of their gear, outside of the DAPs and the headphone stuff? At least they don't in the North American market. The iDAP-6/iDAC-6 were the exceptions, likely because they matched with the desktop-oriented iHA-6. But they have some really nice CD players and other stuff which seems nearly impossible to find (again, in my region at least).
> 
> The CS-100DAC is now available here through ZMF and I feel it is extremely competitive in the sub-$5k price range. And maybe beyond, for that matter.


Personally I only follow headphone releases and up until very recently Cayin wasn't big in the headphone market. (Now they are among the most solid offerings imo)

Thr CS-100DAC haa been announced on the munich high end 2018 in a similar fashion as the headphone amps after that though


----------



## project86

Interesting. I think it may be different from region to region as there just hasn't been any push on the device in my neck of the woods. And the online dealers that have been selling Cayin gear for a while (like Musicteck, Audio46) still don't appear to have it. 

In any case, having experienced it for myself I think it deserves way more exposure.


----------



## Wes S

project86 said:


> I guess some companies might still separate their 2-channel gear vs personal audio gear, and maybe they don't think there would be much interchange between those two lines? I dunno, personally I've seen (exclusively) headphone users try just about every crazy DAC on the market, so I don't think there's an upper limit.
> 
> But I agree, I've got maybe 9 high-end DACs here in the $2k-10k range, and the CS-100DAC is one of my favorites so far.


Nice!  Knowing you are a fan of the Sonnet Morpheus, how would you say this Cayin compares sound wise.


----------



## tdx

Hi all,
I recently bought a pair of PSVANE Acme 300Bs from someone to try out on my HA 300. I swapped my current tubes, turned on the amp, but then I get zero sound. I put back my previous tubes, and I get my sound back. I tried switching the Acmes left and right, still no sound.

The weird thing is the tubes are glowing, so they're not dead or anything, can't figure out why I'm not getting sound.

Before I write to the seller and complain, is there anything else I could try to make sure the tubes are actually working?

Thanks


----------



## ARCXENOS

tdx said:


> Hi all,
> I recently bought a pair of PSVANE Acme 300Bs from someone to try out on my HA 300. I swapped my current tubes, turned on the amp, but then I get zero sound. I put back my previous tubes, and I get my sound back. I tried switching the Acmes left and right, still no sound.
> 
> The weird thing is the tubes are glowing, so they're not dead or anything, can't figure out why I'm not getting sound.
> ...


is your sources / phones /output switch accidentally changed? I think that is definitely not normal, I have heard of psvane acme tubes arriving DOA and triggering the fuse, but since it lights up, that don't seem to be the case


----------



## tdx

ARCXENOS said:


> is your sources / phones /output switch accidentally changed? I think that is definitely not normal, I have heard of psvane acme tubes arriving DOA and triggering the fuse, but since it lights up, that don't seem to be the case


I checked all inputs and outputs and they're good. It's so weird, it's like the tube is fine but then produces no sound...


----------



## steve468

tdx said:


> I checked all inputs and outputs and they're good. It's so weird, it's like the tube is fine but then produces no sound...


I had a pair of Acme 300b that were blowing the fuse. It was the fuse that was in the power section. Exactly like you describe, the tubes lit up but no sound. Though the sound didn't come back with the stock tubes, as the fuse was dead. 

Luckily in my case it was simply a case of changing that fuse. Hopefully it's as easy for you.


----------



## steve468

steve468 said:


> I had a pair of Acme 300b that were blowing the fuse. It was the fuse that was in the power section. Exactly like you describe, the tubes lit up but no sound. Though the sound didn't come back with the stock tubes, as the fuse was dead.
> 
> Luckily in my case it was simply a case of changing that fuse. Hopefully it's as easy for you.


Forgot to add, one of the main symptoms that helped the diagnosis was the tubes would beat, and then never got to full temperature. They were cooler than normal. That helped my dealer narrow it down to that certain fuse.


----------



## tdx

steve468 said:


> Forgot to add, one of the main symptoms that helped the diagnosis was the tubes would beat, and then never got to full temperature. They were cooler than normal. That helped my dealer narrow it down to that certain fuse.


Thanks that would make sense, and yes what you're describing happens to me too, the tubes never get really hot. But on the other hand as you said the sound comes back when I swap tubes so it's really weird. Once you swapped the fuse did the Acme tubes then work?


----------



## steve468

tdx said:


> Thanks that would make sense, and yes what you're describing happens to me too, the tubes never get really hot. But on the other hand as you said the sound comes back when I swap tubes so it's really weird. Once you swapped the fuse did the Acme tubes then work?


No, they never worked. I put them in several times after changing the fuse and they blew it each time. Good thing Cayin includes a couple fuses in the package! 

I've (hopefully) attached the photo that was sent to show which fuse to change. It was super easy, just needed a screwdriver to get the bottom of the power unit off, and to wiggle the fuse holder out. Took me less than 5 minutes total. Maybe it's worth a shot?


----------



## tdx

Cool thanks so much! I'll try.


----------



## steve468

tdx said:


> Cool thanks so much! I'll try.


Good luck! One last thing, it was the 160ma 250v volt fuse that I used. I can't remember what the other fuse in the package is, but I think it has higher values and may cause more problems if you put that one in by accident. I really hope the fix is easy for you.


----------



## msq123

steve468 said:


> Good luck! One last thing, it was the 160ma 250v volt fuse that I used. I can't remember what the other fuse in the package is, but I think it has higher values and may cause more problems if you put that one in by accident. I really hope the fix is easy for you.



Power supply fuse depend on your region -

~ 220V-240V : T1.6AL250V;
 ~ 100V-120V: T3.15AL250V


----------



## steve468

msq123 said:


> Power supply fuse depend on your region -
> 
> ~ 220V-240V : T1.6AL250V;
> ~ 100V-120V: T3.15AL250V


Hmm, by what you say I've got the wrong fuse in. I can't remember now where I got the idea I should use the 1.6a fuse. I think that's the type I pulled out originally (though, it was months ago and old brain and all). The plot thickens...

I'm sorry if I've given incorrect info in this thread!


----------



## msq123 (Oct 13, 2022)

steve468 said:


> Hmm, by what you say I've got the wrong fuse in. I can't remember now where I got the idea I should use the 1.6a fuse. I think that's the type I pulled out originally (though, it was months ago and old brain and all). The plot thickens...
> 
> I'm sorry if I've given incorrect info in this thread!



I got this from the manual of my mk2. Could be different for mk1?


----------



## tdx

Couldnt make it work no matter what with the PSVANE tubes, so the seller agreed to take them back and check. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 14, 2022)

msq123 said:


> I got this from the manual of my mk2. Could be different for mk1?


I believe you might be right that the fuse could be different, also on the mk2 you access the fuse from the back side of the amp externally where the power cord attaches, and you don't have to take apart the amp to access it like you do with the mk1.


----------



## Pashmeister

May I ask for those who use the amp bookshelf speaker near field desk listening, what speakers would be ideal? Will LS3/5A speakers or Rogers Studio 3, or some of the small Dali speakers be okay?


----------



## JeffMann

Wes S said:


> I believe you might be right that the fuse could be different, also on the mk2 you access the fuse from the back side of the amp externally where the power cord attaches, and you don't have to take apart the amp to access it like you do with the mk1.


From what source can one purchase additional samples of those two spare fuses?

Jeff.


----------



## steve468

JeffMann said:


> From what source can one purchase additional samples of those two spare fuses?
> 
> Jeff.


If you want the same basic fuse, I bought some extras from Digi-Key, which is in Canada. Less than a dollar a fuse. They've been very helpful when I've needed extra parts for Bottlehead builds and whatnot - they have everything! But you could also just google the fuse values and lots of options show up.

Or for fancy fuses, Parts Connexion, also in Canada, has lots of audiophile bits and bobs, though maybe less selection for specific fuse values.


----------



## JeffMann (Oct 20, 2022)

Some questions about the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier.

If a 22de4 tube suddenly/finally fails, can it damage the main amplifier eg. by producing too high a power output when it fails?

What about sudden failures of the 6sn7 driver tube and 300B power output tube - can they damage the amplifier?

Regarding the use of NOS 6sn7 tubes, are the GT, GTA and GTB versions all equally compatible with this amplifier?

Jeff.


----------



## CayinSupport

JeffMann said:


> Some questions about the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier.
> 
> If a 22de4 tube suddenly/finally fails, can it damage the main amplifier eg. by producing too high a power output when it fails?
> 
> ...



Hi Jeff, about your questions:
1. The current from 22DE4 or 6SN7 is too small to damage the amplifier.
2. There is HV fuse to protect HA-300MK2 from being damaged when 300B tube is failed.
3. About 6SN7 tubes, GT, GTA and GTB versions are ok.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Oct 20, 2022)

CayinSupport said:


> Hi Jeff, about your questions:
> 1. The current from 22DE4 or 6SN7 is too small to damage the amplifier.
> 2. There is HV fuse to protect HA-300MK2 from being damaged when 300B tube is failed.
> 3. About 6SN7 tubes, GT, GTA and GTB versions are ok.


For 1) what about ecc32, that was specified to be usable in the manual? Is there a rated gain tolerance as well?

I had a discussion regarding 6C8G, and was told it has similar gain to the ecc32, i.e. it is usable with the ha300bmk2 with converters, wonder if anyone else would like to chime in


----------



## JeffMann (Oct 20, 2022)

CayinSupport said:


> Hi Jeff, about your questions:
> 1. The current from 22DE4 or 6SN7 is too small to damage the amplifier.
> 2. There is HV fuse to protect HA-300MK2 from being damaged when 300B tube is failed.
> 3. About 6SN7 tubes, GT, GTA and GTB versions are ok.


Cayin Support,

Thank you for replying.

I have another question. I am in the process of purchasing a Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier and when talking to Musicteck in the USA he stated that Cayin has recently changed its transformer to decrease the possibility of noise. He had an open box MK2 version in stock (silver color), but he stated that it did not have the latest transformer and that he would have to change the transformer to get it to be equivalent to the latest version. Alternatively, he stated that I could order a new black version of the MK2, which would then be shipped from China and it would automatically have the new transformer.

Could you please explain when Cayin decided to change the transformer and why it was necessary?

My second question. What is the present-day availability of the Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier? I placed a special order with a Cayin-authorised dealer in the USA in early October, and I have not received any information on when it is likely to he shipped to the US Distributor from China.

Thanks,

Jeff.


----------



## Wes S

JeffMann said:


> Cayin Support,
> 
> Thank you for replying.
> 
> ...


Interesting!  I just recently got a replacement unit, and it's quite a bit quieter than the first one.  I thought I just got lucky, but perhaps there is a reason. . .


----------



## zach915m

Comparo Video is up!:


----------



## paradoxper

If you don't roll those 300B, my nervosa is going to implode!


----------



## CayinSupport

JeffMann said:


> Cayin Support,
> 
> Thank you for replying.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jeff. In early production HA-300MK2 was produced 115V/230V Dual Voltaged. As for the ones we shipped to USA they are 115V ones. However as we got reports from our US Distributors and Customers that in USA for some areas the voltage can go as high as 117V or even 120V. Under such case it will give high burden to the power transformer. As a result in order to guarantee a reliable Power Supply we decided to produce 120V for USA market. 

HA-300MK2 latest batch are already available. We have shipped out the new version to both ZMF and RSM. You can check with the dealer where you placed the order and they can give you a estimated date when you can get your HA-300MK2.


----------



## Wes S

paradoxper said:


> If you don't roll those 300B, my nervosa is going to implode!


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 21, 2022)

CayinSupport said:


> Thanks Jeff. In early production HA-300MK2 was produced 115V/230V Dual Voltaged. As for the ones we shipped to USA they are 115V ones. However as we got reports from our US Distributors and Customers that in USA for some areas the voltage can go as high as 117V or even 120V. Under such case it will give high burden to the power transformer. As a result in order to guarantee a reliable Power Supply we decided to produce 120V for USA market.
> 
> HA-300MK2 latest batch are already available. We have shipped out the new version to both ZMF and RSM. You can check with the dealer where you placed the order and they can give you a estimated date when you can get your HA-300MK2.


@CayinSupport  So for those in the U.S. that just recently bought one, how can we determine if it has the correct 120V transformer?  My voltage fluctuates between 117 and 120, and I don't want to give a high burden to an amp that cost this much.  Are you offering replacements for those in the U.S. that have the earlier transformer?  I don't think it will be much fun at all worrying that one is doing damage to the amp just from normal listening if you live in the U.S. and have the older (wrong) transformer.

Seems to me this was quite an oversight, as everyone I know in the U.S. no matter where they are located has at least 117V and many have all the way up to 125V depending on time of day.

I woke up early on my day off to fire up my Cayin HA300mk2, and now I have lost the desire to listen in fear of doing damage to the amp as my voltage from the wall is at 121V right now, and that flat out sucks.


----------



## zach915m (Oct 21, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> Cayin Support,
> 
> Thank you for replying.
> 
> ...


FWIW we keep the amp in stock, and have them on hand and ready to ship same day.  A lot of dealers will drop ship stuff because it costs them less to not keep inventory because they are essentially box movers.  I only carry stuff I can afford to keep on hand.


Wes S said:


> @CayinSupport  So for those in the U.S. that just recently bought one, how can we determine if it has the correct 120V transformer?  My voltage fluctuates between 117 and 120, and I don't want to give a high burden to an amp that cost this much.  Are you offering replacements for those in the U.S. that have the earlier transformer?  I don't think it will be much fun at all worrying that one is doing damage to the amp just from normal listening if you live in the U.S. and have the older (wrong) transformer.
> 
> Seems to me this was quite an oversight, as everyone I know in the U.S. no matter where they are located has at least 117V and many have all the way up to 125V depending on time of day.
> 
> I woke up early on my day off to fire up my Cayin HA300mk2, and now I have lost the desire to listen in fear of doing damage to the amp as my Voltage from the wall is at 121V right now, and that flat out sucks.


Regarding the transformer issue, it may be lost in translation slightly, but the transformer value doesn't mean the amp has the "right" or "wrong" value, in fact many amps have 110/115/120 volt transformers. If you do a search a variety of voltage windings are used for many amps, and the voltage will fluctuate in your house.  What Cayin is saying is not that the amp will wear or won't work and degrade over time, but that of the transformer has to work harder it may be noisier.

FWIW I cannot hear a difference between the two versions in our shop, and we consistently have a voltage of 117 to 121.

I will check with Cayin if you want to inspect your unit, but it is not something that will change performance of the amp over time, it's something that was meant to try to reduce noise without a voltage down converter for unstable areas.

If concerned you can always buy a downstep transformer to plug into, Tripp lite sells them on Amazon, I have one, but I have found it to make no difference regardless of the unit.  RF and chain make much more of a difference, as I've documented over in the ha-3a thread.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 21, 2022)

zach915m said:


> FWIW we keep the amp in stock, and have them on hand and ready to ship same day.  A lot of dealers will drop ship stuff because it costs them less to not keep inventory because they are essentially box movers.  I only carry stuff I can afford to keep on hand.
> 
> Regarding the transformer issue, it may be lost in translation slightly, but the transformer value does mean the amp has the "right" or "wrong" value, in fact many amps have 110/115/120 volt transformers. If you do a search a variety of voltage windings are used for many amps, and the voltage will fluctuate in your house.  What Cayin is saying is not that the amp will wear or won't work and degrade over time, but that of the transformer has to work harder it may be noisier.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the quick reply and info Zach!  I knew I could count on you for an answer.  I think the value of my amp with the older transformer just decreased, but I don't plan on selling it anyways.

Back to blissful listening.  . .


----------



## zach915m

Wes S said:


> Thanks for the quick reply and info Zach!  I knew I could count on you for an answer.  I think the value of my amp with the older transformer just decreased, but I don't plan on selling it anyways.
> 
> Back to blissful listening.  . .


I know the units we have now are newer units, but I don't know when the change happened.  If @Cayin has info on serial numbers for concerned potential buyers, it may be helpful to post here.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 21, 2022)

zach915m said:


> I know the units we have now are newer units, but I don't know when the change happened.  If @Cayin has info on serial numbers for concerned potential buyers, it may be helpful to post here.


I just looked at the back of my amp and power supply, and there is a white sticker right above where the power cord attaches and is says 120V 50/60Hz 185W on it, so looks like I got the newer transformer.   So, for those concerned what version transformer you have, you might look at the back of the power supply for that sticker.


----------



## JeffMann

Zach,

You wrote-: "_If concerned you can always buy a downstep transformer to plug into, Tripp lite sells them on Amazon, I have one, but I have found it to make no difference regardless of the unit._"

I thought that a step down transformer is used to drop the voltage from 220V to 120V. My house power supply has an average power output of 122.8V. Are you asserting that there is Tripp Lite downstep transformer that will drop that voltage down to 120V? 

To Cayin Support,

What affect will having an average of 122.8V house mains power supply affect the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier in terms of reliability and sound quality?

Jeff.


----------



## Trickness

CayinSupport said:


> Thanks Jeff. In early production HA-300MK2 was produced 115V/230V Dual Voltaged. As for the ones we shipped to USA they are 115V ones. However as we got reports from our US Distributors and Customers that in USA for some areas the voltage can go as high as 117V or even 120V. Under such case it will give high burden to the power transformer. As a result in order to guarantee a reliable Power Supply we decided to produce 120V for USA market.
> 
> HA-300MK2 latest batch are already available. We have shipped out the new version to both ZMF and RSM. You can check with the dealer where you placed the order and they can give you an estimated date when you can get your HA-300MK2.


Andy, any thoughts for those of us early adopters in the US that have the dual voltage version?


----------



## smodtactical

Any actual listening impressions of this amp? Seems like its all about issues? What about how it sounds dudes.


----------



## thecrow

smodtactical said:


> Any actual listening impressions of this amp? Seems like its all about issues? What about how it sounds dudes.


There should be something in the previous 2274 posts. Something


----------



## smodtactical

thecrow said:


> There should be something in the previous 2274 posts. Something



Honestly not much.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 22, 2022)

smodtactical said:


> Any actual listening impressions of this amp? Seems like its all about issues? What about how it sounds dudes.


The sound is insanely good.  There is serious grip, weight, and power from the bass, and you can literally feel the vibrations and texture, and it makes the music and headphones feel alive.  Then there is the mids, and that's where the magic really happens, and there is maximum detail/transparency without sounding forced and the images float,  linger and decay so naturally it's as if I was really there.  The images are huge and fully fleshed out (life-sized) and float all around my head, and it's stunning how I can really get a sense for the musician's and their instruments.  The highs soar but stay smooth and effortless as well.  Another thing I don't hear mentioned is the speed, and this amp is incredibly fast and makes my VC's sound like a dynamic/planar mix.  I think the speed plays a big role in how effortless and natural the sound is and then dynamic and impactful when called for.  Lastly, the staging is incrediblly holographic and is super deep and wide when called for or it can be intimate as well, and basically whatever the track calls for this amp delivers.  It's a wild ride going from an intimate Folk track to a fully open and dynamic Electronica track, and you really get a sense for how good this amp is going from genre to genre as it delivers just what the track calls for each time.

Back to the bass, the grip and power really lays a killer foundation for the mids and highs, and basically every track no matter the genre, sounds as if it's being performed live.  Bass is everything and without a good foundation the sound is thin and artificial sounding to me, and the Cayin delivers the bass in spades.

I have been to a ton of live shows and love Bluegrass, Folk, Jam Bands and Acoustic stuff and this amp (with the tubes I am using) and my VC's is flat out perfection.  I also listen to a lot of chill Electronica stuff, and this amp delivers and is so satisfying with that genre as well.

So to answer your question, this amp has endgame sound, and a few descriptors that continually come to mind are, effortless, dynamic, natural, lifelike, detailed, fast, huge, powerful and holographic.

Of note, I have been so enamored with the sound of my VC's with this amp, that I have not even tried my Atticus with it yet.  However, I have it on good authority that the Atticus and HA300 have a very special synergy, and I am actually going to give that a try later today.  I know you have a pair of Atticus and love them just as much as I do, and I will report back on the pairing shortly.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 22, 2022)

Absolutely spellbound by the sound and mesmerized by the glow of this fantastic tube combo, in my Cayin using my VC's.

RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates w/Ceramic Spacers and Dual Foil Getters 54' and Elrog ER300B's 22' in all their glory.

Don't let the low glow from those RFT's fool you, as they pack a serious punch just like the Elrog's.  Talk about feeling the bass. . .


----------



## steve468

Wes S said:


> The sound is insanely good.  There is serious grip, weight, and power from the bass, and you can literally feel the vibrations and texture, and it makes the music and headphones feel alive.  Then there is the mids, and that's where the magic really happens, and there is maximum detail/transparency without sounding forced and the images float,  linger and decay so naturally it's as if I was really there.  The images are huge and fully fleshed out (life-sized) and float all around my head, and it's stunning how I can really get a sense for the musician's and their instruments.  The highs soar but stay smooth and effortless as well.  Another thing I don't hear mentioned is the speed, and this amp is incredibly fast and makes my VC's sound like a dynamic/planar mix.  I think the speed plays a big role in how effortless and natural the sound is and then dynamic and impactful when called for.  Lastly, the staging is incrediblly holographic and is super deep and wide when called for or it can be intimate as well, and basically whatever the track calls for this amp delivers.  It's a wild ride going from an intimate Folk track to a fully open and dynamic Electronica track, and you really get a sense for how good this amp is going from genre to genre as it delivers just what the track calls for each time.
> 
> Back to the bass, the grip and power really lays a killer foundation for the mids and highs, and basically every track no matter the genre, sounds as if it's being performed live.  Bass is everything and without a good foundation the sound is thin and artificial sounding to me, and the Cayin delivers the bass in spades.
> 
> ...


Just to add to your comment about the ZMF Cayin pairing, all of which I agree with: the HA-300 paired with a V, C or O, might be the most realistic rendition of real, acoustic instruments I’ve heard. Anyone that’s been around actual instruments playing will be instantly transported to the stage where the actual people are performing. It’s really uncanny.


----------



## steve468

steve468 said:


> Just to add to your comment about the ZMF Cayin pairing, all of which I agree with: the HA-300 paired with a V, C or O, might be the most realistic rendition of real, acoustic instruments I’ve heard. Anyone that’s been around actual instruments playing will be instantly transported to the stage where the actual people are performing. It’s really uncanny.


I’ll also add that I’m addicted to the sense of space this amp provides. That’s one of my favourite things about the VO, and to a slightly lesser extent the VC, and this amp just accentuates that so much. I was listening to the HD800S last night and I felt like I was in a giant stadium with music floating all around me - not very natural, but very fun if that’s what you’re into.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 22, 2022)

Here it's goes with my first time trying my Atticus with 300B's. . . I can't wait to hear/feel the bass.


----------



## smodtactical

Wes S said:


> The sound is insanely good.  There is serious grip, weight, and power from the bass, and you can literally feel the vibrations and texture, and it makes the music and headphones feel alive.  Then there is the mids, and that's where the magic really happens, and there is maximum detail/transparency without sounding forced and the images float,  linger and decay so naturally it's as if I was really there.  The images are huge and fully fleshed out (life-sized) and float all around my head, and it's stunning how I can really get a sense for the musician's and their instruments.  The highs soar but stay smooth and effortless as well.  Another thing I don't hear mentioned is the speed, and this amp is incredibly fast and makes my VC's sound like a dynamic/planar mix.  I think the speed plays a big role in how effortless and natural the sound is and then dynamic and impactful when called for.  Lastly, the staging is incrediblly holographic and is super deep and wide when called for or it can be intimate as well, and basically whatever the track calls for this amp delivers.  It's a wild ride going from an intimate Folk track to a fully open and dynamic Electronica track, and you really get a sense for how good this amp is going from genre to genre as it delivers just what the track calls for each time.
> 
> Back to the bass, the grip and power really lays a killer foundation for the mids and highs, and basically every track no matter the genre, sounds as if it's being performed live.  Bass is everything and without a good foundation the sound is thin and artificial sounding to me, and the Cayin delivers the bass in spades.
> 
> ...



Fantastic thanks so much. Sounds like an amazing amp. 

Have you heard the HA300 MK 1 and if so how does it compare to the mk 2? Any other TOTL amps you have heard like DNA or EC ?


----------



## ThanatosVI

smodtactical said:


> Any actual listening impressions of this amp? Seems like its all about issues? What about how it sounds dudes.


The amp sounds great since it's not exactly a new amp there isn't much in terms of recent reviews.
The Mk2 is supposed to sound the same as the mk1 from 2018 but has an additional output for high sensitivity headphones (the 4.4mm one)

This Expanse Review mentions it as favourite pairing with some comparisons to other amps.
So not a direct review of the amp but interesting bits of info nonetheless.
https://headfonics.com/dan-clark-audio-expanse-review/

Overall the Cayin Ha-300s strengths lie in the mids and ethereal soundstage.
The Feliks Envy for instance is less euphonic in the mids but has more extension into the subbass.


----------



## smodtactical

ThanatosVI said:


> The amp sounds great since it's not exactly a new amp there isn't much in terms of recent reviews.
> The Mk2 is supposed to sound the same as the mk1 from 2018 but has an additional output for high sensitivity headphones (the 4.4mm one)
> 
> This Expanse Review mentions it as favourite pairing with some comparisons to other amps.
> ...



Oh really I was under the impression that mk2 had sonic improvements?


----------



## ThanatosVI

smodtactical said:


> Oh really I was under the impression that mk2 had sonic improvements?


I thought that Andykong mentioned the sound is supposed to be the same. Might be wrong though.

Since your reply Made me wonder I checked the official announcement and changes between Mk1 and Mk2, the transformer and cap changes suggest that their actually might be sonic differences After all.



@Cayin what's the official stance on sonic changes between Mk1 and Mk2?


----------



## realmassy

I‘d be curious to know if there are reliability concerns on the MK1 and if the MK2 fixes those potential issues. There’s a an ex-demo deal from an authorised dealer at a very competitive price, but I’m wondering if it’s a risk


----------



## jamato8

ThanatosVI said:


> I thought that Andykong mentioned the sound is supposed to be the same. Might be wrong though.
> 
> Since your reply Made me wonder I checked the official announcement and changes between Mk1 and Mk2, the transformer and cap changes suggest that their actually might be sonic differences After all.
> 
> @Cayin what's the official stance on sonic changes between Mk1 and Mk2?


With any of those changes there will be a sound difference. Nice looking amp.


----------



## mfgillia

smodtactical said:


> Oh really I was under the impression that mk2 had sonic improvements?


In the interview with the lead product engineer, they also discuss a number of improvements they implemented to improve the sound.


----------



## mfgillia

Wes S said:


> Absolutely spellbound by the sound and mesmerized by the glow of this fantastic tube combo, in my Cayin using my VC's.
> 
> RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates w/Ceramic Spacers and Dual Foil Getters 54' and Elrog ER300B's 22' in all their glory.
> 
> Don't let the low glow from those RFT's fool you, as they pack a serious punch just like the Elrog's.  Talk about feeling the bass. . .


I also want to start rolling 6SN7s with my ER300Bs but not sure where to start. How did you decide on that particular combination and what's the effect from the ceramic spacers?


----------



## Wes S (Oct 22, 2022)

mfgillia said:


> I also want to start rolling 6SN7s with my ER300Bs but not sure where to start. How did you decide on that particular combination and what's the effect from the ceramic spacers?


I already had an idea of what 6SN7's I wanted to roll, based off my past experience rolling pretty much all of them in another amp.  So, once I heard the stock 6SN7's and the sound of the HA300mk2 with the ER300B's, I went straight to the 6SN7's that I knew would accentuate the areas I was looking to improve on.  There is a really good 6SN7 tube thread, and all the info you could ever want is there.  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/.  Here is another great thread for identifying 6SN7's https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/.  Both threads have a ton of info on 6SN7's, and are worth reading through if you are interested in rolling them.

The RFT are built to higher specs and are quite rare and unique, and the ceramic spacers make them more robust and they are said to last longer than a standard 6SN7 just like the Melz 1578.  The RFT sound is very dynamic, and detailed/transparent with forward vocals and a lively presentation with slamming bass, and good stage expansion (especially frontal projection).  I thought the  stock sound was a bit to boomy, rounded, and diffused sounding and that's why I went for the RFT, of which really tightened things up and added some serious punch and detail.  The RFT sound is quite similar to the Elrog sound, and I also knew doubling down on that tight, dynamic, textured and detailed sound would be incredible and sure enough it is.

Basically, I would look for tubes that are said to accentuate the areas you want more of and roll some to get a feel for what's what, and that's really the only way to learn how to roll and what you like.  There are a bunch of options but honestly there are a few that are head and shoulders above the rest of the pack, and they are the Melz 1578 Shiny Hole Plates, RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates, and the G.E.C. B65 Metal Base.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 22, 2022)

smodtactical said:


> Fantastic thanks so much. Sounds like an amazing amp.
> 
> Have you heard the HA300 MK 1 and if so how does it compare to the mk 2? Any other TOTL amps you have heard like DNA or EC ?


I have not heard any other TOTL amps from DNA or EC, and I came from the Pendant SE.

I am listening with my Cocobolo Atticus right now, and I have never heard them sound better.  This pairing really does have a magical synergy, and they accentuate the best out of each other like they were made for each other.     I can't stop moving to the music and the engagement factor is at 11!  





I am listening to the latest Andrew Bird album as I type this and it sounds incredible.  It's as if Andrew is right in front of me singing his heart out, and it's breathtaking.


----------



## Trickness

I have Meze Empyrean cans that I use with my MK2, they are a match made in heaven. But I’m thinking of adding a different set of cans just as an alternative flavor, curious to hear from anybody else who has Empys and another type of headphones, who might recommend a good compliment to them. Thx!!!


----------



## ThanatosVI

Trickness said:


> I have Meze Empyrean cans that I use with my MK2, they are a match made in heaven. But I’m thinking of adding a different set of cans just as an alternative flavor, curious to hear from anybody else who has Empys and another type of headphones, who might recommend a good compliment to them. Thx!!!


Solitaire P. Still a darker tuning which you probably prefer when liking the Empyrean but unlike the Empyrean with crazy good detail presentation and subbass to Die for.


----------



## EagleKent

steve468 said:


> I’ll also add that I’m addicted to the sense of space this amp provides. That’s one of my favourite things about the VO, and to a slightly lesser extent the VC, and this amp just accentuates that so much. I was listening to the HD800S last night and I felt like I was in a giant stadium with music floating all around me - not very natural, but very fun if that’s what you’re into.


Just curious Steve.  Do you still reach for your HD800S anymore since you've got your VO/VC?  I don't reach for my Stax L700 much anymore since I've got the VC.  Just wondering as HD800S and Cayin HA-300B is supposed to be a killer combination as well.


----------



## thecrow

Trickness said:


> I have Meze Empyrean cans that I use with my MK2, they are a match made in heaven. But I’m thinking of adding a different set of cans just as an alternative flavor, curious to hear from anybody else who has Empys and another type of headphones, who might recommend a good compliment to them. Thx!!!


Lcd5 would offer something quite different to empyreans.

i would say look for something with a more neutral presentation and higher level of detail - if that suits your preferences.

or utopia (old or new), hekse, or maybe hekv2 which is well priced at the moment


----------



## steve468

EagleKent said:


> Just curious Steve.  Do you still reach for your HD800S anymore since you've got your VO/VC?  I don't reach for my Stax L700 much anymore since I've got the VC.  Just wondering as HD800S and Cayin HA-300B is supposed to be a killer combination as well.


The HD800S are obviously a very different beast. I think they still play in the upper echelons of headphone-dom, but only on a tube amp. On the HA-300 especially, to my ears there is nothing better for classical. It is a complement to the Verities. I listen to a lot of different genres of music, and like having options depending on my mood.

I will say though, that Atrium almost completely replaces the 800s. Atrium is missing the very upper part of the treble, but has that same completely even tone, and has much more present bass. It works surprisingly well for large ensemble orchestral. The soundstage with the Cayin is just about as crazy as the Senn's. I haven't had the Atriums very long, so it'll be interesting to see what happens...


----------



## ARCXENOS

Well in case someone ever wants to know, it appears there is enough space to use L63/6J5 converters on the mk2

I ordered the converters from @Deyan


----------



## tinariwen

Does anyone use a linear power supply with their ha-300mk2?

I’m finally at the point where I’m happy with my setup (Qutest, ha-300mk2, Susvara), and I’m now looking to make the final tweaks with power supplies and what not.

Almost anyone who likes Chord products seems to think they’re improved with an LPS, so I wondered if the amp would benefit, too.

I’ll be honest, I really don’t know much about this side of audio. I’m going to start checking reviews and seeing what’s recommended and within budget, but I thought I’d ask on here first.

Maybe there’s a dual output LPS that would cover both the Qutest and amp?


----------



## bdjul

tinariwen said:


> Does anyone use a linear power supply with their ha-300mk2?
> 
> I’m finally at the point where I’m happy with my setup (Qutest, ha-300mk2, Susvara), and I’m now looking to make the final tweaks with power supplies and what not.
> 
> ...


AFAIK Cayin is already using lbs with tubes on its ha300, so no need to change. And even if you want it’s not easily done, because you will need a totally custom ps. So I recommend don’t bother yourself. May be you can try changing tubes on lps and power cord and see if you like it. I also wonder does anyone change the cable connecting ha-300 and psu?


----------



## tinariwen

bdjul said:


> AFAIK Cayin is already using lbs with tubes on its ha300, so no need to change. And even if you want it’s not easily done, because you will need a totally custom ps. So I recommend don’t bother yourself. May be you can try changing tubes on lps and power cord and see if you like it. I also wonder does anyone change the cable connecting ha-300 and psu?


I thought that was the case with the amp, but figured I’d ask here first. Thanks!


----------



## smodtactical

Has anyone compared ha300, any version to DNA amps ?


----------



## EagleKent

Hi all,
I just want to drop by to say how happy I am about going from HA-3A to the HA-300B MK2 as a follow-up to my HA-3A postings.  It is truly a magical pairing with my Denafrips Pontus II and ZMF VC and it hit all my listening preferences (3D holographic, detail, clarity, and meaty sound)!  The air around the instruments and the killer forward mids for the vocals really make you feel the music   All genres sound fantastic and not lacking in bass either although to my ears the HA-3A bass is still slightly tighter and more detailed.  I feel like I have reached the end game as far as tube amps are concerned as I don't have the urge to look further.  This amp is hitting all my listening preferences 

Just a few things to note for anyone who is a new buyer like myself:
(1)  The amp is noisier than HA-3A for sure.  The amp does have a low buzzing and faint bell-ringing sound that caused a bit of concern initially but they largely disappear or become very faint after at least 30 mins of listening.  Sometimes I don't hear them at all during some listening sessions.  I suspect this amp needs time to settle before becoming almost silent and will get better after a proper burn-in period.  
As per Zack's suggestion, I tried the ZMF in the 4.4 balanced output and it does reduce the noise significantly compared to the XLR to the point I can't hear any noise at normal listening levels (11 o'clock for me).  To my ears, the XLR has slightly more bass detail and 4.4 is noticeably smoother without giving away detail other than bass.  Lastly, I played around with different power cables and powerboards and found they do help to reduce the noise which suggests I may have a power issue (ground loop perhaps?), so will look to invest in a mid-level power filter/conditioner like the Thor ps10 power conditioner.  Nothing fancy like PS Audio power conditioners as rather use the money towards other new cans like the ZMF Attrium Closed as soon as Zack perfected it   The idea of using a portable battery with perfect sine wave also intrigues me as they are becoming cheaper and cheaper   But I am happy to wait for a sale as the noise is a non-issue for me once the music is playing. 

(2) The tubes are at least 2x hotter than the HA-3A and if you have it in a HiFi rack like mine it will get very hot very quickly.  So much so you can feel it on the shelve above it.  After some research, I landed on buying some cheap twin USB fans from Amazon to help draw out the hot air like my PC and it works fantastic!  The shelves and air around the tubes are lukewarm to the touch now and I would say no hotter than the HA-3A 

(3) I tried tube swapping the driver tubes with some second-hand ones I got from Ebay and the buzzing was 2x louder so noisy tubes are a thing for anyone new to tube amps 

Lastly, well done to Cayin for making this amp at a price point that is significantly lower than other branded 300B amps with fewer feature sets.  I never thought I would spend that much money on a tube amp when there are other options like second-hand Chord TT2 for the same price but for the listening pleasure I am getting it's a worthwhile investment (assuming the build quality is good enough for 10 years of use at least ) YMMV 

Happy days!


----------



## smodtactical

@zach915m can you describe the difference between the HA300 MK 2 and L0rdGwyn's air mountain amp? 

Thanks!


----------



## Trickness

smodtactical said:


> Has anyone compared ha300, any version to DNA amps ?


Click back a few pages, I post my thoughts about the differences between this amp and my DNA stratus


----------



## JeffMann

EagleKent said:


> Hi all,
> I just want to drop by to say how happy I am about going from HA-3A to the HA-300B MK2 as a follow-up to my HA-3A postings.  It is truly a magical pairing with my Denafrips Pontus II and ZMF VC and it hit all my listening preferences (3D holographic, detail, clarity, and meaty sound)!  The air around the instruments and the killer forward mids for the vocals really make you feel the music   All genres sound fantastic and not lacking in bass either although to my ears the HA-3A bass is still slightly tighter and more detailed.  I feel like I have reached the end game as far as tube amps are concerned as I don't have the urge to look further.  This amp is hitting all my listening preferences
> 
> Just a few things to note for anyone who is a new buyer like myself:
> ...


Why are you seemingly willing to accept the presence of *any* noise that is causally due to your Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier - considering the fact that many Cayin HA300 users have a dead-silent amp thereby proving that it is capable of being totally noise-free?

Jeff.


----------



## EagleKent

JeffMann said:


> Why are you seemingly willing to accept the presence of *any* noise that is causally due to your Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier - considering the fact that many Cayin HA300 users have a dead-silent amp thereby proving that it is capable of being totally noise-free?
> 
> Jeff.


Not accepting the noise presence at all   I have got a Furman power conditioner on the way and if failing that, plan B is a portable battery.  I have done hours of research on reducing buzz in audio gear and there are many options like regenerators, isolated transformers, UPS, and balanced power transformers.  All sounds good but has drawbacks whereas portable battery seems to have none.  Furthermore, you can get one with a pure sine wave that lasts 10 hours for the same price as a high-end basic regenerator.  I think I will buy some tube dampeners as well to help alleviate the 300B tube microphonics.


----------



## jamato8

EagleKent said:


> Not accepting the noise presence at all   I have got a Furman power conditioner on the way and if failing that, plan B is a portable battery.  I have done hours of research on reducing buzz in audio gear and there are many options like regenerators, isolated transformers, UPS, and balanced power transformers.  All sounds good but has drawbacks whereas portable battery seems to have none.  Furthermore, you can get one with a pure sine wave that lasts 10 hours for the same price as a high-end basic regenerator.  I think I will buy some tube dampeners as well to help alleviate the 300B tube microphonics.


Have you tried lifting the grounds on all but one device? Then the grounding is at one point.


----------



## EagleKent (Nov 1, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Have you tried lifting the grounds on all but one device? Then the grounding is at one point.


Thanks.  I will give that a try as well if the Furman doesn't work out.  

On second thought, after some research, I think I will give lifting the ground a miss due to my safety preference (don't want to take any chances when it comes to electricity).  I would try something like Hum-X first.  Thanks all the same as it does work by all accounts.


----------



## JeffMann (Nov 2, 2022)

EagleKent said:


> Not accepting the noise presence at all   I have got a Furman power conditioner on the way and if failing that, plan B is a portable battery.  I have done hours of research on reducing buzz in audio gear and there are many options like regenerators, isolated transformers, UPS, and balanced power transformers.  All sounds good but has drawbacks whereas portable battery seems to have none.  Furthermore, you can get one with a pure sine wave that lasts 10 hours for the same price as a high-end basic regenerator.  I think I will buy some tube dampeners as well to help alleviate the 300B tube microphonics.


You wrote-: "_Not accepting the noise presence at all   I have got a Furman power conditioner on the way and if failing that, plan B is a portable battery."_

If the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier is the *true cause* of the noise problem, why don't you send it back and demand a replacement?

Many Cayin HA300MK2 owners have stated that their amplifier is dead-silent when plugged directly into a wall power outlet - without having to try and use power conditioners or a portable battery to solve a noise-problem that is *apparently* due to a faulty amplifier.

Also, why do you have a problem with 300B tube microphonics?

Jeff.


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## EagleKent

JeffMann said:


> You wrote-: "_Not accepting the noise presence at all   I have got a Furman power conditioner on the way and if failing that, plan B is a portable battery."_
> 
> If the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier is the *true cause* of the noise problem, why don't you send it back and demand a replacement?
> 
> ...


You have a very good point.  I am not 100% convinced the amp has a fault because based on other people's comments from this forum the ZMF VC is not totally silent with 300B and Zack has recommended using the 4.4 balance which I have tried and it is indeed almost silent (have to listen hard for the low buzz).  In short, I can have an almost silent experience but I prefer the better dynamics of the XLR output hence trying o minimize the low buzz.  I am also convinced my power line is dirty as connecting the amp directly to the power outlet increased the noise.  Would love to hear from someone who has ZMF VC and plug their amp into the power outlet directly and did not hear any noise at all on the XLR output.  So far, I have not seen confirmation.  The amp has 2 years warranty so returning it is definitely on the cards


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## mfgillia (Nov 2, 2022)

EagleKent said:


> You have a very good point.  I am not 100% convinced the amp has a fault because based on other people's comments from this forum the ZMF VC is not totally silent with 300B and Zack has recommended using the 4.4 balance which I have tried and it is indeed almost silent (have to listen hard for the low buzz).  In short, I can have an almost silent experience but I prefer the better dynamics of the XLR output hence trying o minimize the low buzz.  I am also convinced my power line is dirty as connecting the amp directly to the power outlet increased the noise.  Would love to hear from someone who has ZMF VC and plug their amp into the power outlet directly and did not hear any noise at all on the XLR output.  So far, I have not seen confirmation.  The amp has 2 years warranty so returning it is definitely on the cards


So after reading your post I decided to test again my Atriums and VCs using the 4.4 and xlr outputs. My Cayin is using Elrogs ER300Bs and Linlai Global Elites.

With the 4.4 I hear no hum, hiss or static with my Spring 3 KTE on mute for both the Atrium and VC. Off-mute, I also hear no hum or static. Once the volume gets around one and two oclock I can start to hear some background noise / hiss out of the VC and Atrium respectively.

With the xlr its a similar story for the Atriums. For the VCs however I immediately hear some low level hum and some intermittent static out of the right channel even with the Spring on mute. Off-mute is about the same until the volume gets to around 12 oclock then the background noise / hiss kicks in.

In my situation I'm pretty happy as I just use 4.4 most of the time and this works out well to my ears. However, it took some time to get the 4.4 perfectly silent at my listening volumes. After a few weeks of running the Cayin I started hearing some static out of the right channel on most days. I replaced the extension cord with the Power Plant 3 and still had that noise. Then replaced the stock tungsols with the Linlais and that did the trick - background was much darker and no more static.


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## tdx

mfgillia said:


> So after reading your post I decided to test again my Atriums and VCs using the 4.4 and xlr outputs. My Cayin is using Elrogs ER300Bs and Linlai Global Elites.
> 
> With the 4.4 I hear no hum, hiss or static with my Spring 3 KTE on mute for both the Atrium and VC. Off-mute, I also hear no hum or static. Once the volume gets around one and two oclock I can start to hear some background noise / hiss out of the VC and Atrium respectively.
> 
> ...


Different question, how is the combo of Elrogs with Linlais on the Cayin? I have the Linlais paired with Takatsuki 300Bs and i find the resulting sound clear and refined but lacking in emotion and weight. Do you think swapping the Takas for Elrogs would fix this? Thanks


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## paradoxper

tdx said:


> Different question, how is the combo of Elrogs with Linlais on the Cayin? I have the Linlais paired with Takatsuki 300Bs and i find the resulting sound clear and refined but lacking in emotion and weight. Do you think swapping the Takas for Elrogs would fix this? Thanks


That's exactly what the Elrogs will define, however, you could also likely swap the Linlai for MELZ, TSBP or RCA grey glass to provide a lift.
All of the current production 6SN7 are pretty dry and tired compared to NOS counterparts.


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## mfgillia

tdx said:


> Different question, how is the combo of Elrogs with Linlais on the Cayin? I have the Linlais paired with Takatsuki 300Bs and i find the resulting sound clear and refined but lacking in emotion and weight. Do you think swapping the Takas for Elrogs would fix this? Thanks


Somewhat but I suspect pairing the Elrogs with a different pair of 6sn7s may be more optimal. 

My first swap was the Gold Lions for the Elrogs and that was a pretty noticeable upgrade particularly on the low end / weight side of things. Then the noise issue out of the right channel started to develop, which eventually lead to swapping out the Tungsols for the Linlais. 

Compared to the Elrogs with the stock Tungsols, the Linlais are much quieter overall and has a bit more of that holographic, wider sound stage with slightly less precise imaging. But the most noticably difference to me by far is the sub-bass / bass - its noticably less energetic than the Tungsols. 

I still think the sound with the Linlais conveys plenty of emotion more than the Tungsols in some ways but has less weight to my ears. Therefore, my search for another pair of 6sn7s to pair with the Elrogs continues.


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## ColSaulTigh

mfgillia said:


> Somewhat but I suspect pairing the Elrogs with a different pair of 6sn7s may be more optimal.
> 
> My first swap was the Gold Lions for the Elrogs and that was a pretty noticeable upgrade particularly on the low end / weight side of things. Then the noise issue out of the right channel started to develop, which eventually lead to swapping out the Tungsols for the Linlais.
> 
> ...


You might want to look outside the realm of 6SN7's for some weight and gravitas.  As @paradoxper said, the current batch of 6SN7's are a bit dry and lifeless (IMO).  I'm currently on a 6F8G kick, which add a nice richness, slickness, and "wet" sound to everything.  You can find good NOS pairs on eBay for $150 or so, and the prize ones (Tung-Sol BGRP) are around $550-$600 for a '40's NOS pair.  You need adapters, but they can be found from $20/pr on ebay (although I go Woo Audio, $90 ea).

Once you start looking outside the 6SN7 realm there's a world of possibilities.  Just be sure to check the specifics of your amplifier to ensure yours can handle them.


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## mfgillia

ColSaulTigh said:


> You might want to look outside the realm of 6SN7's for some weight and gravitas.  As @paradoxper said, the current batch of 6SN7's are a bit dry and lifeless (IMO).  I'm currently on a 6F8G kick, which add a nice richness, slickness, and "wet" sound to everything.  You can find good NOS pairs on eBay for $150 or so, and the prize ones (Tung-Sol BGRP) are around $550-$600 for a '40's NOS pair.  You need adapters, but they can be found from $20/pr on ebay (although I go Woo Audio, $90 ea).
> 
> Once you start looking outside the 6SN7 realm there's a world of possibilities.  Just be sure to check the specifics of your amplifier to ensure yours can handle them.


Much thanks for the suggestion. That does sounds like a great idea - going after some 6F8Gs versus keep searching for increasingly harder to find NOS 6sn7s with potentially dubious QC issues. I also recall Zach at ZMF was recommending this path as well. 

I will probably go for the the Woo Audio adapters too versus less familar options on Ebay despite the noticeable price premium.


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## JeffMann

ColSaulTigh said:


> You might want to look outside the realm of 6SN7's for some weight and gravitas.  As @paradoxper said, the current batch of 6SN7's are a bit dry and lifeless (IMO).  I'm currently on a 6F8G kick, which add a nice richness, slickness, and "wet" sound to everything.  You can find good NOS pairs on eBay for $150 or so, and the prize ones (Tung-Sol BGRP) are around $550-$600 for a '40's NOS pair.  You need adapters, but they can be found from $20/pr on ebay (although I go Woo Audio, $90 ea).
> 
> Once you start looking outside the 6SN7 realm there's a world of possibilities.  Just be sure to check the specifics of your amplifier to ensure yours can handle them.


When I did a google search for NOS 6F8G tubes, I noted that they were all used and I could not find any that were new (unused). How does one find unused samples as I presume that used samples are going to have a much shorter lifespan?

Jeff.


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## JeffMann (Nov 2, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> That's exactly what the Elrogs will define, however, you could also likely swap the Linlai for MELZ, TSBP or RCA grey glass to provide a lift.
> All of the current production 6SN7 are pretty dry and tired compared to NOS counterparts.


You state that all of the current production 6sn7 tubes are "tired". What do you mean by describing the musical sound being produced by a headphone as being "tired"?

Also, have you auditioned all the current production 6sn7 tubes eg. Psvane CV181-TII and the Linlai Elite 6sn7 tube?

Jeff.


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## paradoxper (Nov 2, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> You state that all of the current production 6sn7 tubes are "tired". What do you mean by describing the musical sound being produced by a headphone as being "tired"?
> 
> Also, have you auditioned all the current production 6sn7 tubes eg. Psvane CV181-TII and the Linlai Elite 6sn7 tube?
> 
> Jeff.


Lacking expressive flow i.e. extension at both ends.
I've heard all the big 3 circulation Psvane/Linlai/Shuguang > Treasure series, Elite, the best is the Sophia Electric Aqua for some warmth and bloom but they just don't hold up to a MELZ, TS or Ken-Rad NOS.


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## jamato8

I have a lot of tubes, NOS (not selling so please don't take this as an advertisement), and thought I had some 6F8G. I looked in my walk-in closet and there is a box of them. Different brands, NOS. Seems I liked the 12SN7 better. That is the shame, instead of 6SN7, they should also make the amp with a simple to employ 12.6 voltage for the filament and then you have the quieter 12SN7 tube to use that is also less expensive.


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## Wes S

paradoxper said:


> Lacking expressive flow i.e. extension at both ends.
> I've heard all the big 3 circulation Psvane/Linlai/Shuguang > Treasure series, Elite, the best is the Sophia Electric Aqua for some warmth and bloom but they just don't hold up to a MELZ, TS or Ken-Rad NOS.


. . .or RFT NOS.


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## incredulousity

jamato8 said:


> I have a lot of tubes, NOS (not selling so please don't take this as an advertisement), and thought I had some 6F8G. I looked in my walk-in closet and there is a box of them. Different brands, NOS. Seems I liked the 12SN7 better. That is the shame, instead of 6SN7, they should also make the amp with a simple to employ 12.6 voltage for the filament and then you have the quieter 12SN7 tube to use that is also less expensive.


Hmmm. I have just such an external power supply by @Deyan for my GU-50 tubes on Euforia. Maybe time to order some powered 6SN7 to 12SN7 adapters for giggles or perhaps more.


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## jamato8

incredulousity said:


> Hmmm. I have just such an external power supply by @Deyan for my GU-50 tubes on Euforia. Maybe time to order some powered 6SN7 to 12SN7 adapters for giggles or perhaps more.


You need the amp to supply the 12.6 volts to the filament. There aren't any adapters. The LTA MZ3 has a switch to go from 6SN7 to 12SN7 tubes. It is very simple but you need the transformer to supply 12.6 volts.


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## incredulousity

I understand. I have done this before, but that is even better that 12SN7 has the same pin configuration; I did not know that. I happen to have 6SN7 socket savers with external heater current connection, which will do the trick, then.

Now people please recommend some good 12SN7 tubes to try!


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## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> I understand. I have done this before, but that is even better that 12SN7 has the same pin configuration; I did not know that. I happen to have 6SN7 socket savers with external heater current connection, which will do the trick, then.
> 
> Now people please recommend some good 12SN7 tubes to try!


I'm confused.
Don't 12SN7 need twice the voltage?
As far as I understand they won't need extra current but Don't work in a 6.3V curcuit


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## jamato8

ThanatosVI said:


> I'm confused.
> Don't 12SN7 need twice the voltage?
> As far as I understand they won't need extra current but Don't work in a 6.3V curcuit


Twice the voltage, half the current. But he said he has a socket that is wired so you can use an external supply for the filament so you could use them, the 6.3 would not be used and would just float and the tube would work with the external 12.6 supply to the filaments.


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## incredulousity

what @jamato8 said...


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## EagleKent

mfgillia said:


> So after reading your post I decided to test again my Atriums and VCs using the 4.4 and xlr outputs. My Cayin is using Elrogs ER300Bs and Linlai Global Elites.
> 
> With the 4.4 I hear no hum, hiss or static with my Spring 3 KTE on mute for both the Atrium and VC. Off-mute, I also hear no hum or static. Once the volume gets around one and two oclock I can start to hear some background noise / hiss out of the VC and Atrium respectively.
> 
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to reply!  I did more listening last night and almost had a completely silent experience even on XLR and H gain.  The low buzz came in once or twice during an hour of listening which I am ok with as 99% of the other time is pure listening bliss   Having said that I will still try to get rid of it completely if I can 

Just a quick question, being new to HA-300B, I noticed for the first time when I tap the amp casing and even the HiFi shelf itself I can hear the tapping through my VC.  Is this normal? 

Thanks,
Kent


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## jamato8

EagleKent said:


> Thank you for taking the time to reply!  I did more listening last night and almost had a completely silent experience even on XLR and H gain.  The low buzz came in once or twice during an hour of listening which I am ok with as 99% of the other time is pure listening bliss   Having said that I will still try to get rid of it completely if I can
> 
> Just a quick question, being new to HA-300B, I noticed for the first time when I tap the amp casing and even the HiFi shelf itself I can hear the tapping through my VC.  Is this normal?
> 
> ...


Normal with a lot of tubes. Best solution, though it isn't a problem, don't tap. :^)


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## EagleKent

jamato8 said:


> Normal with a lot of tubes. Best solution, though it isn't a problem, don't tap. :^)


Yes, I figure that after some research and don't intend to tab the casing, shelf, and tube as part of my listening routine   Thanks for confirming


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## JeffMann (Nov 3, 2022)

I just received my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier today from the US Distributor (RSM Communications in Florida).

The amplifier is malfunctioning badly.

I connected my Susvara headphones to the 4-pin XLR output of the amplifier and it produced sound (of mediocre quality) for about two hours (using a PS Audio PWT CD-Transport => Musician Aquarius DAC => RCA connection to the Cayin HA300MK2  headphone amplifier). Then I noted a loud scratchy/static type of sound intermittently in the left channel. It then became continuous and much louder than the music. That static type of distortion almost sounded as loud as gunshots and it sounded very loud even if the volume control was turned to zero.

I turned off the amplifier for about an hour and when I turned it on again there was no sound coming from the left channel and the sound quality from the right channel was tinny/distorted. I checked the 300B fuses and they seemed to be intact. I switched 300B tubes and then the right channel was dead (silent) and the output from the left channel was tinny/distorted.

What do you think is causing the problem?

There is one fact about this amplifier that really surprised me. I noted that the 22DE4 tubes and 6sn7 tubes are firmly socketed and cannot be moved. However, the 300B tubes seem to just be floating with no grip at socket level. If I gently rock the top of the 300B tubes with my fingertip, I can rock them 1/4"-1/2" in each direction (side-to-side and back-and-forth) and they do not necessarily become vertical again after the movement. Is that normal for a 300B tube, or should the tube's 4 pins be firmly grasped by "something" in the tube socket? I also noted that it is hard to see whether the 300B tubes are on - there is only a faint orange-red glow that is visible when I switch off the lights. Is that normal? Shouldn't the filament produce a stronger glow? Could it be due to the fact that there is very little physical contact between the tube's 4 pins and the tube socket connection?

Jeff.


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## bAsschiP

JeffMann said:


> I just received my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier today from the US Distributor (RSM Communications in Florida).
> 
> The amplifier is malfunctioning badly.
> 
> ...


Wow..........no matter the cause this has to be disappointing!!!


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## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I just received my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier today from the US Distributor (RSM Communications in Florida).
> 
> The amplifier is malfunctioning badly.
> 
> ...


They should be firm just like the rest of the sockets. The sound you’re getting could be because of the bad connection with the 300 B tubes. The sockets either need to be tightened up the connection within them. Or what should really happen is the company should send you another amplifier and you would return that one.


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## mfgillia

EagleKent said:


> Thank you for taking the time to reply!  I did more listening last night and almost had a completely silent experience even on XLR and H gain.  The low buzz came in once or twice during an hour of listening which I am ok with as 99% of the other time is pure listening bliss   Having said that I will still try to get rid of it completely if I can
> 
> Just a quick question, being new to HA-300B, I noticed for the first time when I tap the amp casing and even the HiFi shelf itself I can hear the tapping through my VC.  Is this normal?
> 
> ...


Yep, pretty much the same for me. If I bump into it or hit the stack then not unusual to hear it through the headphones.


----------



## mfgillia

jamato8 said:


> They should be firm just like the rest of the sockets.


On mine it does appear the 300B sockets are of a different type and have more play / less fixed than the 6sn7s. I haven't touched the 22DE4s yet but they look similar to the 6sn7s. 

Hasn't really been an issue but you can definitely move the 300Bs a bit off axis before they creep back to being fully vertical whereas the 6ns7s won't budge.


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## paradoxper

JeffMann said:


> I just received my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier today from the US Distributor (RSM Communications in Florida).
> 
> The amplifier is malfunctioning badly.
> 
> ...


Loose sockets will exhibit your exact issue of channel dropping and static noise.


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## mfgillia

paradoxper said:


> Loose sockets will exhibit your exact issue of channel dropping and static noise.


Interesting - maybe I should try tightening mine too. I can see two philips screws on either side of each socket so looks like something that would be easy to do.


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## paradoxper

mfgillia said:


> Interesting - maybe I should try tightening mine too. I can see two philips screws on either side of each socket so looks like something that would be easy to do.


It's common for large tubes such as 300B tubes to be loose. In fact, it's common for many to tilt. Just ensure contact is solid to calm nervosa.


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## ThanatosVI

JeffMann said:


> What do you think is causing the problem?


The tubes. (Or sockets)
I experienced the exact same with a faulty KT88. I recommend to switch the tubes and not use it anymore with the current set to prevent damage to the amp itself.

If you can go to the store and let them test with other tubes for several hours.


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## Wes S (Nov 3, 2022)

mfgillia said:


> Interesting - maybe I should try tightening mine too. I can see two philips screws on either side of each socket so looks like something that would be easy to do.


Mine are the same way, and I wouldn't sweat it.  Just make sure they are seated all the way in.  The 6SN7 and 22DE4 sockets are ridiculously tight, and the 300B are definitely a bit looser on my unit as well.  Perhaps part of it is due to lesser number of pins on the 300B's for less frictional contact to the sockets, compared to the drivers and rectifiers?

 I personally don't think Cayin should ship the amp with the tubes already installed, because the tubes can come loose during shipping (all delivery services literally throw and drop packages during transit all the time), and if you don't check to see if the tubes are seated correctly before firing up the amp problems can arise.  One of my stock Gold Lion 300B's were not seated all the way in when I received my first unit, but I noticed it and made sure it was seated correctly before firing up the amp for the first time.

 * A note to new HA300mk2 owners, check to make sure the tubes are seated correctly (all the way in) before firing up the amp for the first time.


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## JeffMann (Nov 3, 2022)

Wes S said:


> Mine are the same way, and I wouldn't sweat it.  Just make sure they are seated all the way in.  The 6SN7 and 22DE4 sockets are ridiculously tight, and the 300B are definitely a bit looser on my unit as well.  Perhaps part of it is due to lesser number of pins on the 300B's for less frictional contact to the sockets, compared to the drivers and rectifiers?
> 
> I personally don't think Cayin should ship the amp with the tubes already installed, because the tubes can come loose during shipping (all delivery services literally throw and drop packages during transit all the time), and if you don't check to see if the tubes are seated correctly before firing up the amp problems can arise.  One of my stock Gold Lion 300B's were not seated all the way in when I received my first unit, but I noticed it and made sure it was seated correctly before firing up the amp for the first time.
> 
> * A note to new HA300mk2 owners, check to make sure the tubes are seated correctly (all the way in) before firing up the amp for the first time.


I have attached an image of a tube socket for a 300B tube.

I strongly suspect that this is the type of 300B tube socket that is used in the Cayin HA300 amp. The metal clamps look very weak and I can imagine that they have lost secure contact with the pins of the 300B tube because the amp was shipped with the 300B tubes in place. Cayin placed a foam insert in the cage to presumably prevent movement of the 300B tube, but I have found that the foam insert is very loose fitting and it does not actually prevent the 300B tube from moving while the amp is en route from China to Florida (RSM Communications = US Distributor), and then from Florida to Salt Lake City (my home city).

I purchased the Cayin HA300 amp from Arthur Power of Power Holdings Inc. who placed a special order on my behalf because he does not routinely sell the Cayin HA300 amp.

He claims that he can replace the 300B tube sockets with a much better quality tube socket - see https://www.thetubestore.com/4-pin-teflon-gold-socket - that will more securely hold the pins of the 300B tube.

What do you think?

I am also worried about whether that very loud staticky noise (which sounded like a machine gun firing in terms of volume intensity) can damage the driver of my headphones if it happens again. Can a headphone driver be seriously damaged if the 300B tube malfunctions?

Jeff.


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## JeffMann

JeffMann said:


> I have attached an image of a tube socket for a 300B tube.
> 
> I strongly suspect that this is the type of 300B tube socket that is used in the Cayin HA300 amp. The metal clamps look very weak and I can imagine that they have lost secure contact with the pins of the 300B tube because the amp was shipped with the 300B tubes in place. Cayin placed a foam insert in the cage to presumably prevent movement of the 300B tube, but I have found that the foam insert is very loose fitting and it does not actually prevent the 300B tube from moving while the amp is en route from China to Florida (RSM Communications = US Distributor), and then from Florida to Salt Lake City (my home city).
> 
> ...


I was wondering whether the following solution is easier to execute and it will not involve sending in my amp for repair/replacement.

I have attached an image showing the interior of the amp. It shows the 300B tube socket. It would seem that if I simply remove the bottom panel of the amp that I will be able to access the 300B tube sockets. I could then use a pair of needle nose pliers to crimp those metal clamps closer together. If that works, then I would not have to send the amplifier back for repair or replacement (presuming it has not been damaged by those events that unfolded when I first used the amplifier).

What do you think?

Jeff.


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## jamato8 (Nov 3, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I was wondering whether the following solution is easier to execute and it will not involve sending in my amp for repair/replacement.
> 
> I have attached an image showing the interior of the amp. It shows the 300B tube socket. It would seem that if I simply remove the bottom panel of the amp that I will be able to access the 300B tube sockets. I could then use a pair of needle nose pliers to crimp those metal clamps closer together. If that works, then I would not have to send the amplifier back for repair or replacement (presuming it has not been damaged by those events that unfolded when I first used the amplifier).
> 
> ...


Yes, that is what you tighten on a tube socket. I used to test a lot of tubes as I have many, a few 1000 and my testers would get a little loose. I would tighten the socket clamp force. But I am use to it having used tubes for many years and I used them in the US Navy as a radioman (not called that any longer). But I would bend them just a little. and then insert the tube and see if you are getting better contact, pressure on the tube pins. This is not uncommon, to do this. Also as you can tell, the tube will move more because thee are only 4 pins vs. 8 etc. But you still want good clamping force on the pins or you will have issues. Different tube sockets require different methods of fixing the clamping force on the pins. So many people now have never used tubes, so they are used to it or what to do. It isn't a mystery and something you learn to do. It also depends upon the quality of the sockets and most aren't near the quality of what they used to be but then when everything from TVs, radios, stereos, etc., had tubes, is was a different world.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 3, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I have attached an image of a tube socket for a 300B tube.
> 
> I strongly suspect that this is the type of 300B tube socket that is used in the Cayin HA300 amp. The metal clamps look very weak and I can imagine that they have lost secure contact with the pins of the 300B tube because the amp was shipped with the 300B tubes in place. Cayin placed a foam insert in the cage to presumably prevent movement of the 300B tube, but I have found that the foam insert is very loose fitting and it does not actually prevent the 300B tube from moving while the amp is en route from China to Florida (RSM Communications = US Distributor), and then from Florida to Salt Lake City (my home city).
> 
> ...


Yes, the ones in the link are much better and I doubt you would ever have an issue with them. If I bought the amp, I would change them out. Sad that they don't use much better quality tube sockets.

With a high enough volume, of course it could damage the drivers. 

The sockets for being teflon are inexpensive compared to others I have seen in the past that use teflon. I prefer ceramic bases as teflon can deform but I would check with the company selling them.


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## JeffMann

jamato8 said:


> Yes, that is what you tighten on a tube socket. I used to test a lot of tubes as I have many, a few 1000 and my testers would get a little loose. I would tighten the socket clamp force. But I am use to it having used tubes for many years and I used them in the US Navy as a radioman (not called that any longer). But I would bend them just a little. and then insert the tube and see if you are getting better contact, pressure on the tube pins. This is not uncommon, to do this. Also as you can tell, the tube will move more because thee are only 4 pins vs. 8 etc. But you still want good clamping force on the pins or you will have issues. Different tube sockets require different methods of fixing the clamping force on the pins. So many people now have never used tubes, so they are used to it or what to do. It isn't a mystery and something you learn to do. It also depends upon the quality of the sockets and most aren't near the quality of what they used to be but then when everything from TVs, radios, stereos, etc., had tubes, is was a different world.


Thank you for your useful comments.

I turned the amplifier sideways and I noted that there are only 8 Philips-type screws that hold the bottom plate in place. In fact, the bottom plate has ventilation grills and when I shine a light through the grills I can clearly see the 4 socket metal clamps of each 300B tube socket. They differ from that photo image in my previous post in the sense that they are gold-plated. I can also see that they are not close together.

I presume that there is no risk of an electrical shock if I attempt to crimp those gold-plated metal clamps closer together  - seeing that my main amplifier has been disconnected from the power supply for about 12 hours.

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> Thank you for your useful comments.
> 
> I turned the amplifier sideways and I noted that there are only 8 Philips-type screws that hold the bottom plate in place. In fact, the bottom plate has ventilation grills and when I shine a light through the grills I can clearly see the 4 socket metal clamps of each 300B tube socket. They differ from that photo image in my previous post in the sense that they are gold-plated. I can also see that they are not close together.
> 
> ...


There is normally a drain resistor for the caps, which is proper design but never count on it until you look at the caps. But the power supply is by umbilical so you would disconnect that any way. Taking the tube out of the socket and improving the clamping force should not be a problem. Just don't touch bare wires. Most likely no issue but if you aren't familiar with the layout etc., better to safe than sorry. I have been hit with 720 volts from a cap and it isn't fun smelling you flesh burning. lol 

When ever working on electronics take off any good grounding objects, like rings etc. But I doubt you would have issues tightening the clamping force. To me, it is no big thing and I would without doubt, improve the socket force on the pins.


----------



## Yggy

I’ve been testing a DHC Prion 4 headphone cable with Abyss 1266 Phi TCs and the HA-300. I use Forza Audio Noir Hybrid HPC cables but wanted to try something fancier. I didn’t want a cable that added its own sound signature or colouration. 

The Prion 4 improved detail, clarity, tonality, and bass tightness, so you get a bit more of everything the HA-300 excels at. The trade-off is a slightly leaner bass but it has more impact because it’s more chiselled and textured. 

Looks-wise, the charcoal grey sleeving with copper and silver metallic tracers is gorgeous. It’s not quite as easy to handle as the Noir Hybrid HPC but it’s light and manageable for a summit-fi headphone cable.


----------



## llamaluv

The very loud 'gunshot'-level noise out of the driver is the most concerning thing to me. My vote is a bad tube.

I had a brand new Studio Six once which did not play any music, but when I turned the input selector, the headphone (ZMF Auteur, I think) emitted a very, very loud crack, at least 90dB from a couple feet away. I was thankful that the driver did not break and even more thankful the headphone wasn't on my head (_yeeesh_).

I sent it back for repair but was told that it turned out to be simply a bad tube (power tube, I believe).


----------



## EagleKent

JeffMann said:


> I just received my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier today from the US Distributor (RSM Communications in Florida).
> 
> The amplifier is malfunctioning badly.
> 
> ...


As a new owner myself I can confirm the 300B sockets are looser than the 6SN7 sockets but not socket itself is loose, it's just the 300B does move around easily while in the 4-pin socket.  I also have noise issues from the start with a low buzzing sound which I was able to reduce by plugging it to my Amazon powerboard that have a bit of EMI filtering (not proper power conditioning one like Furman).  After a week the buzz is pretty much gone except it does come back intermittently, say 1% of the time.  I am also still getting a faint intermittent bell ringing sound as well.
But yesterday I had a revelation or confirmation of what I had read on the various forums concerning 6SN7 tubes being more susceptible to noise and microphonics.  My order of 6 pairs of various second-hand 6SN7 tubes from various reputable eBay sellers finally arrived and lo-and-behold, the first pair I tried was completely silent.  Furthermore, when I tap on the shelf and casing, no noise through the HP!  It looks like a very old tube but no microphonics!   The next 3 pairs have very low hum (not buzz) and tapping can be heard through HP but not as much as the stock tubes.  The last pair have the same intermittent bell ringing and buzzing as the stock tubes.  
I am still burning in the tube amp and if the intermittent buzzing of the stock tube persists after 200 hours I am returning them under warranty as it will be clear I have got bad tubes.  The second-hand old tubes I got all sound great and sweeter but the stock Tung-sol tubes still sound more transparent to my ears so definitely want a replacement, especially something I had paid for 

Try swapping to another 6SN7 in case you got bad tubes if you haven't already.  Worth a try IMO.  I had thought it may be my power supply but tube swapping pretty much confirmed it's the tubes.  Cheers.


----------



## iamdman

Hello,

I have been looking for a tube amplifier for my HD800s and ZMF VC for quite some time. I was looking at Cayin HA-6A, but I can get a 300Mk2 with 10% off on new item and wondering if its worth to look at 300MK2? Has anyone moved from HA-6A to 300MK2 and if so can you please share your thoughts?


Thanks


----------



## EagleKent

Hi all,
Being new to 6SN7 tubes and now having rolled 5 pairs other than stock I have a question which is for brand new 6SN7 tubes, do we expect them to be completely noise free and not microphonic?  I just realized the pair that is completely noise-free and not microphonic is NOS (6N8S/6SN7 Foton Double Triode Tubes Square Getter Same Date VI. 1959').  The other used tubes (6SN7GTA GE 1950, 6SN7GTB Raytheon/Baldwin Black Plates O-Getter, and 6SN7GTA Sylvania) all have some noise and are microphonic.
If new 6SN7 tubes should be noise-free and not microphonic do you have any reputable sellers you can recommend that guarantee noise-free and non-microphonic tubes?  I just bought a bunch of used tubes to try as they are cheaper and once I landed on the one I like, I will look to stock up on NOS or new stock of the same.

Thanks


----------



## jamato8

Most of the time the only time you’re going to notice anything that’s microphone like is if you’re tapping on something or if you’re using it in a speaker system and they’re very microphonic picking up everything. Otherwise, I will take a microphonic tube over totally dead quiet one because they tend to add a little bit more life to the music and that is through years of experience. There’s nothing wrong with a little bit of micro phonics in a tube and for many it is normal. It’s just people want to tap on everything tap on the tube and then say hey, it’s microphonic that’s got nothing to do with the ultimate sound that he can produce. Also regarding noise a lot of times a new tube or even a tube that has been used for a while will get a little bit of gas, which is why you have getter inside the tube. Getter, absorbs gases they can overtime leak into the tube. Where did tube is heated up the gutter is more activated and then absorbs. Those gases and a gassy tube can cause some noise. when you buy used tubes you have no idea how much they’ve been used and you will not know the true sound of that tube because even if it measures well, you still don’t know how much and how hard it was used and that sometimes can take the edge off the quality sound of a tube

If there’s any typos in this, sorry I’m using voice to do my typing right now.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 3, 2022)

Double post


----------



## EagleKent

jamato8 said:


> Most of the time the only time you’re going to notice anything that’s microphone like is if you’re tapping on something or if you’re using it in a speaker system and they’re very microphonic picking up everything. Otherwise, I will take a microphonic tube over totally dead quiet one because they tend to add a little bit more life to the music and that is through years of experience. There’s nothing wrong with a little bit of micro phonics in a tube and for many it is normal. It’s just people want to tap on everything tap on the tube and then say hey, it’s microphonic that’s got nothing to do with the ultimate sound that he can produce. Also regarding noise a lot of times a new tube or even a tube that has been used for a while will get a little bit of gas, which is why you have getter inside the tube. Getter, absorbs gases they can overtime leak into the tube. Where did tube is heated up the gutter is more activated and then absorbs. Those gases and a gassy tube can cause some noise. when you buy used tubes you have no idea how much they’ve been used and you will not know the true sound of that tube because even if it measures well, you still don’t know how much and how hard it was used and that sometimes can take the edge off the quality sound of a tube
> 
> If there’s any typos in this, sorry I’m using voice to do my typing right now.


Thanks!  That's very good info


----------



## Wes S (Nov 3, 2022)

EagleKent said:


> Hi all,
> Being new to 6SN7 tubes and now having rolled 5 pairs other than stock I have a question which is for brand new 6SN7 tubes, do we expect them to be completely noise free and not microphonic?  I just realized the pair that is completely noise-free and not microphonic is NOS (6N8S/6SN7 Foton Double Triode Tubes Square Getter Same Date VI. 1959').  The other used tubes (6SN7GTA GE 1950, 6SN7GTB Raytheon/Baldwin Black Plates O-Getter, and 6SN7GTA Sylvania) all have some noise and are microphonic.
> If new 6SN7 tubes should be noise-free and not microphonic do you have any reputable sellers you can recommend that guarantee noise-free and non-microphonic tubes?  I just bought a bunch of used tubes to try as they are cheaper and once I landed on the one I like, I will look to stock up on NOS or new stock of the same.
> 
> Thanks


Buying quiet tubes is a crap shoot for both NOS and New Production, unless you buy from a vendor that checks for noise.  Also, there is not one brand or make that is always quiet.  For instance, of my six pairs of RFT 6SN7, a several of the pairs are quit a bit quieter than the rest and they are the exact same tube.

A couple of vendors that check for noise that I have have had great success with, are Vintage Tube Services and Tube World Express.  Also, there are some on ebay as well, and they usually put that in the listing.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 3, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Most of the time the only time you’re going to notice anything that’s microphone like is if you’re tapping on something or if you’re using it in a speaker system and they’re very microphonic picking up everything. Otherwise, I will take a microphonic tube over totally dead quiet one because they tend to add a little bit more life to the music and that is through years of experience. There’s nothing wrong with a little bit of micro phonics in a tube and for many it is normal. It’s just people want to tap on everything tap on the tube and then say hey, it’s microphonic that’s got nothing to do with the ultimate sound that he can produce. Also regarding noise a lot of times a new tube or even a tube that has been used for a while will get a little bit of gas, which is why you have getter inside the tube. Getter, absorbs gases they can overtime leak into the tube. Where did tube is heated up the gutter is more activated and then absorbs. Those gases and a gassy tube can cause some noise. when you buy used tubes you have no idea how much they’ve been used and you will not know the true sound of that tube because even if it measures well, you still don’t know how much and how hard it was used and that sometimes can take the edge off the quality sound of a tube
> 
> If there’s any typos in this, sorry I’m using voice to do my typing right now.


Interesting. . .I have had some microphonic tubes in the past that definitely had some extra magic, and I always wondered why that was.  I don't pursue microphonic tubes, but if I get one and it doesn't ring while listening I'll rock with it.


----------



## JeffMann

Wes S said:


> Buying quiet tubes is a crap shoot for both NOS and New Production, unless you buy from a vendor that checks for noise.
> 
> A couple of vendors that check for noise that I have have had great success with, are Vintage Tube Services and Tube World Express.  Also, there are some on ebay as well, and they usually put that in the listing.


It is my impression that Brent Jessee - http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm - goes to a lot of trouble to check that his NOS 6sn7 tubes are noise-free if you pay for that extra service.

This video shows how he tests for noise.



Jeff.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 3, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> It is my impression that Brent Jessee - http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm - goes to a lot of trouble to check that his NOS 6sn7 tubes are noise-free if you pay for that extra service.
> 
> This video shows how he tests for noise.
> 
> ...



I laugh every time I see that video!  Let me pay someone to whack my tubes while they are running hot?  I have been told and I believe it's the truth, that it's a good rule of thumb not touch, tap or whack your tubes while they are hot, or you can make them noisy or microphonic.  I have never actually tested that theory though, and if I am wrong someone please let me know.


----------



## EagleKent

Wes S said:


> Buying quiet tubes is a crap shoot for both NOS and New Production, unless you buy from a vendor that checks for noise.  Also, there is not one brand or make that is always quiet.  For instance, of my six pairs of RFT 6SN7, a several of the pairs are quit a bit quieter than the rest and they are the exact same tube.
> 
> A couple of vendors that check for noise that I have have had great success with, are Vintage Tube Services and Tube World Express.  Also, there are some on ebay as well, and they usually put that in the listing.


Thanks Wes!


----------



## EagleKent

JeffMann said:


> It is my impression that Brent Jessee - http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm - goes to a lot of trouble to check that his NOS 6sn7 tubes are noise-free if you pay for that extra service.
> 
> This video shows how he tests for noise.
> 
> ...



Thanks Jeff!


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 3, 2022)

And even tubes that are tested for noise can go noisy so it is what it is. And some tubes I have had that were totally quiet, no microphonic and high quality sounded a little dead.

And if you want to tap on tube, etc., knock on your head instead. lol Leave them alone! Stuff between the plates can be very close and glowing filaments and then the cathode, don't need extra stress put on them.

Tapping like in the video tells you nothing! And it is stupid. Wow, I know who not to buy tubes from. lol


----------



## Yggy

iamdman said:


> Has anyone moved from HA-6A to 300MK2 and if so can you please share your thoughts?


I upgraded from a Schiit Ragnarok 2 to an HA-6A and then to an HA-300 MK1. 

I had a strong preference for the KT88 tubes and triode setting on the HA-6A so the HA-300 was going to give me more of that with less flexibility on the sound signature.  

The HA-6A was excellent, I really liked it. It was smooth, detailed, and a big improvement of the Ragnarok tonally. I didn’t have it for long though because a used HA-300 came up on eBay soon after I got it. 

The HA-300 just took everything up a notch. It was a sweeter, fuller, a more powerful tube sound with slightly more clarity and detail. 

I’ve stuck with the HA-300 since and upgraded it with new production WE300b tubes, Sylvania 6SN7 metal base NOS tubes, V-CAP CuTF capacitors, and upgraded the cables into and out of it, I use Tellurium Q Black Diamond XLR cables and just got a DHC Prion 4 headphone cable. 

If you get the HA-300 MK2, and you know you value detail, clarity, and tonality, and prefer bass tightness and texture to slam, you won’t want to upgrade so it’s a more future-proofed buy. 

I have tried upgrading from the HA-300 MK1 several times and have found different but never better. 

I have an Enleum 23R on the way. That will be interesting because it’s meant to excel with Susvaras and 1266 Phi TCs and that’s what I listen to most of the time on the HA-300. 

Most people say the HA-300 isn’t an ideal match for hard-to-drive planars due to it’s lack of power but power isn’t everything. Nothing comes close to the Susvara and HA-300 for quieter music genres. The Susvara reveals the quality and sound signature of your chain like no other headphone and the HA-300 is tonally perfect. The HA-300 won’t make the 1266 Phi TC slam as hard as it it can but it slams so hard anyway, beautifying and filling out it’s slightly ragged, recording picky, and mids-lite sound with 300b tubes is one way to go.


----------



## Zielarz

Yggy said:


> I have an Enleum 23R on the way. That will be interesting because it’s meant to excel with Susvaras and 1266 Phi TCs and that’s what I listen to most of the time on the HA-300.


As an owner of HA-300 MK1 and the Amp-23R I can write a few things. 

First of all I have Cayin for a bit more then two years now. Enleum is in my possession for more then two months. Going from HA-300 to 23R was a bit peinful. In comparison to Cayin it's lifeless with less textured sound. Yes it has a more black background, it seems to be more resolving, also the bass is tighter and generally is clean sounding. But for me 300B gives the headphones like LCD-4 and LCD-5 a lot of magic, lifelike presentation, bigger soundstage. 

1266 TC is a bit different in this comparison. For me Abyss and Cayin together can have an issues. 1266 starts to be more picky in regards to music. With the tracks that have big soundstage (like orchestra or live recordings) it becomes even bigger and you feel like sitting in the last row - everything seems so far away. Also it can be at the edge of being too bright. Besides that it sounds good, even the slam is right just like with LCD-4.

On Enleum however the soundstage is smaller but it makes it just right where it should be. Also I think that in general 1266 with 23R sounds great even in midrage (I thought that Enelum's closer to neutral mids will be a mismatch but I was wrong). For me Abyss pairs better with the Enleum. I can listen to the tracks that feels wrong on Cayin. My other headphones are better with HA-300 though (only LCD-5 has batter bass on 23R but with the cost of more forward and agressive midrange).

As for the power - I think that Cayin has quite a lot of it. It's not as much as Enleum, Ferrum Oor or Burson Soloist 3x GT but still it's 8W for 8 ohm from speakers caps (am I right?). Also if I recall correctly it was tuned with Susvara's in mind. Then again I'm only guessing - maybe some day I'll cheack Susvara's but I don't want to buy them because of the build quality and the price that comes with it (I don't think that other flagship headphones are worth their prices too, but with Hifiman it bothers me much more).


----------



## RobSF

...Burson DAC and the MKII...)


----------



## Erwinatm

paradoxper said:


> It's common for large tubes such as 300B tubes to be loose. In fact, it's common for many to tilt. Just ensure contact is solid to calm nervosa.


Yes correct. 300B only has 4 pins and can be a little wobbly. Unlike 6SN7 that has 8 pins or smaller tubes with 7-9 pins. 

Just make sure you insert it deep enough.


----------



## Erwinatm

Try this at home. Highly Recommended.


----------



## mfgillia (Nov 7, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Yes correct. 300B only has 4 pins and can be a little wobbly. Unlike 6SN7 that has 8 pins or smaller tubes with 7-9 pins.
> 
> Just make sure you insert it deep enough.


I'm finding replacing the 300Bs on the Cayin to be pretty easy regardless of the lean / tilt as they "pop" in and out. Meanwhile getting the 6sn7s completely seated can be quite the challenge.


----------



## Erwinatm

mfgillia said:


> I'm finding replacing the 300Bs on the Cayin to be pretty easier regardless of the lean / tilt as they "pop" in and out. Meanwhile getting the 6sn7s completely seated can be quite the challenge.


Yes from my experience, Cayin's 3O0B tube socket is a bit loose compared to other amp I once had. However it cost more than Cayin though.

On the other hand,  for the smaller tubes  are very tough to pull. Try the 22DE4. 😁😁😁


----------



## thecrow

Erwinatm said:


> Yes correct. 300B only has 4 pins and can be a little wobbly. Unlike 6SN7 that has 8 pins or smaller tubes with 7-9 pins.
> 
> Just make sure you insert it deep enough.


----------



## Erwinatm

thecrow said:


>


😄😄😄


----------



## dnd3241

Erwinatm said:


> Try this at home. Highly Recommended.





Erwinatm said:


> Try this at home. Highly Recommended.


How it's work with Susvara ?


----------



## Erwinatm

dnd3241 said:


> How it's work with Susvara ?



If you like open, detail and transparant sound, this is it. You wont miss a thing. Bad recording will be stripped naked.

Stage is deep and high and enough width, vocal dead center, sweet. Hey,  It is 300B man.

Dynamic is super good, bass go deep but not dominant, mid bass a little bit thin but still there. Marvelous treble, extended and crisp. Non fatigue.

 I feed it with 6V gain from dCS, 
 impedance high, xlr out -)at 12 o'clock already loud enough for my standard. At 1500 can hear a little stress from the amp, Power meter never below 90%, playing around 100% at that level. But, that is already unsafe level for your ears.

No hum, noise, hiss or anything. Dead silent.


----------



## JeffMann (Nov 7, 2022)

*Topic: How to determine whether the 300B tubes are properly seated in a Cayin HA300 amplifier?*

I received my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier last week and the left channel failed after about two hours. See post #2331 to see my description of events. I now know that the cause of this failure was due to the fact that the 300B tubes were not properly seated in their tube sockets and I have acquired new insights into this problem of how to know whether the 300B tubes are properly seated.

This is the first time that I have purchased a tube headphone amplifier and I am therefore a novice. I noted that the 300B tubes could be easily moved side-to-side and back-and-forth by >10mm and I was worried if this was normal. I pushed down on the top of the tubes, but it didn't seem to affect the scenario and the 300B tubes still felt too wobbly and it felt as if there was nothing solidly gripping the 300B tube's pins. I wondered whether the problem was due to the tube socket's clamps being too loose to solidly hold the pins of the 300B tubes. I therefore decided to remove the bottom cover of the amp with the intention of using a pair of needle-nosed pliers to crimp the tube socket's 4 metal clamps closer together.

Here is a description of what happened.

When I looked at those 4 gold-plated clamps on each tube socket, they did not seem to be wide part. I also found that gentle crimping pressure with the needle-nosed pliers did not change anything. I therefore wondered if there was another problem causing the poor seating of the 300B tubes. So, while the amplifier was still lying on its side, I placed a 300B tube in its socket and pressed down firmly. I noted to my surprise that the tip ends of the 300B tubes's pins were only protruding about 2mm beyond the lower surface level of the ceramic tube socket and the tips were barely touching the top of the metal clamps. I then realised that the 300B tubes were not properly seated despite my having applied a lot of pressure to the top of the 300B tube's glass envelope. I then steadily increased the applied pressure to a degree that I thought that the 300B tube's glass envelope may shatter from the magnitude of the applied pressure. Suddenly, I felt a "sudden give" sensation and the 300B tube's pins went down an additional ~5mm. I then noted that the tube socket's metal clamps were firmly grasping the peripheral end of the pins by about 3mm. From my perspective, that represents a properly seated 300B tube.

I then decided to perform the same maneuver with the other 300B tube. However, I made an additional observation. When one looks into the 300B tube socket well from above one cannot see the bottom surface of the white base of the Gold Lion 300B tube because it is obscured by the black-holed mounting plate. However, when working from below, I could clearly see the bottom surface of the white base of the 300B tube. When I placed firm pressure to the top of the 300B tube as before, I noted that the bottom surface of the Gold Lion 300B tube's white tube base was still ~5mm away from the white top ceramic surface of the tube socket. I then applied further vertical preesure onto the top of the 300B tube's glass envelope until I felt that same "sudden give" sensation as previously described. Then, I noted that the bottom surface of the 300B tube's white base was tightly opposed against the top surface of the ceramic socket, and that is another *second* sign (indicator) that the 300B tube is properly seated.

Finally, I turned the amplifier to its normal upright position. I then tried to move the 300B tubes side-to-side and back-and-forth and I noted that I could only move it ~5mm in each direction, and not 10+mm. So, that's another useful *third* sign (indicator) that the 300B tube is properly seated.

How reliable are these 3 indicators that the 300B tube is properly seated? I believe that the 3rd indicator (tilting the tube from side-to-side) to assess how much it can tilt is a very unreliable (very subjective) indicator. I believe that the 2nd indicator (noting that the 300B tube's bottom surface is tightly opposed against the top surface of the ceramic tube socket) is impractical because it is only evident from below. One cannot see the bottom surface of the 300B tube's base when looking from above. That means that the only reliable indicator of a properly seated 300B tube in the Cayin HA300 amplifier is noting that the tube socket's 4 metal clamps are firmly grasping at least 3-4mm of the peripheral end of each pin. That is easy to see if one shines a flashlight through the grills of the bottom plate of the amplifier.   

Because I am a novice when it comes to 300B tube amplifiers, you may not agree with my 3 described indicators of a properly seated 300B tube *in a Cayin 300B headphone amplifier*. Therefore, if you disagree, feel free to criticise my reasoning and feel free to educate me on the best method of determining that the 300B tube is properly seated.

However, if I am correct, then surely Cayin needs to provide this information in the user manual. If Cayin continues to ship the amplifier with the 300B tubes in situ, then it is very possible that the 300B tubes may become dislodged during the travel from China to an end-user's home. Then, if the 300B tube is improperly seated and if there is poor physical contact between the 300B tube's pins and the 300B tube socket's metal clamps, arcing may occur that can potentially damage the 300B tube and/or additional electronic circuitry. What do you think?

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> *Topic: How to determine whether the 300B tubes are properly seated in a Cayin HA300 amplifier?*
> 
> I received my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier last week and the left channel failed after about two hours. See post #2331 to see my description of events. I now know that the cause of this failure was due to the fact that the 300B tubes were not properly seated in their tube sockets and I have acquired new insights into this problem of how to know whether the 300B tubes are properly seated.
> 
> ...


Great. Is it now working correctly?


----------



## Yggy

I received an Enleum 23R today so have been comparing it to the HA-300 Mk 1 with Susvaras and Phi TCs. I remember somebody saying on this thread that the 13R sound signature wasn’t a million miles from the HA-300. There are definitely similarities.  

The Enleum 23R is darker, thicker, the background is blacker, it’s slightly more resolving, more dynamic, faster, treble has more attack, bass is fuller but still textured and chiselled like the HA-300, tonality is similar to the HA-300, vocals are more forward, it’s a more energetic but potentially more fatiguing listen depending on your preferences, I don’t think it’s as refined as the HA-300. 

It adds bass impact to the Susvara which makes it work better with EDM, R&B, rock, and rap and thicker mids to the Phi TC which improves vocals. Phi TCs wowed me more with the Enleum 23R than Susvaras did. I was expecting it to be the other way round. I think that’s because the Susvaras and HA-300 play more nicely together, the HA-300 and Phi TCs aren’t natural bed fellows, they can sound amazing, but are pickier about recordings and genre. 

The Enleum 23R makes the Phi TCs sound like TOTL headphones across a more diverse music library, With the HA-300 and Phi TC, I found myself listening to certain EDM, R&B, and rap albums on repeat, they were usually high res FLAC audiophile quality recordings less than 10 years old. For anything CD quality or 20 years + old, I preferred the HE-6, it was more forgiving and natural sounding. 

I wouldn’t say the Enleum 23R is better than the HA-300, it’s just different. The HA-300 wins for clarity, tonality, and refinement. If you listen to quieter, more elegant, vocally dominated music, the HA-300 and Susvara are hard to beat. 

For dynamics and impact, the Enleum 23R and Phi TC are a superb pairing. If you listen to a mix of music genres, and only want one amp, I’d go with the Enleum 23R, it’s ridiculously powerful for such a tiny amp, I’ve been listening at 10:00. It’s not just loud though, it’s got real oomph. I have a longer list of kit to sell now to justify keeping the HA-300 and Enleum 23R. 

If I was Cayin, I’d be trying to get the HA-300 Mk 3 as dynamic and impactful as the Enleum 23R without trading off tonality and refinement. I assume that’s what you get when you step up to something like the WA33, tube-based tonality and refinement with solid state dynamics and impact.


----------



## JeffMann (Nov 7, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Great. Is it now working correctly?


Yes.

I actually discovered that I originally missed noting that the left 300B tube's fuse was blown (there was a 0.5mm gap in the fuse wire that runs down the longitudinal axis of the tube). When I replaced that fuse, the amp started to function normally suggesting that there is no apparent serious damage to the 300B tube or electronic circuitry.

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> Yes.
> 
> I actually discovered that I originally missed noting that the left 300B tube's fuse was blown (there was a 0.5mm gap in the fuse wire that runs down the longitudinal axis of the tube). When I replaced that fuse, the amp started to function normally suggesting that there is no apparent serious damage to the 300B tube or electronic circuitry.
> 
> Jeff.


Many manufactures do not ship their amps with the tubes in place. If they are, they need to be well seated and then supported, as would be obvious. 

Glad it all turned out good.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 7, 2022)

Yggy said:


> I received an Enleum 23R today so have been comparing it to the HA-300 Mk 1 with Susvaras and Phi TCs. I remember somebody saying on this thread that the 13R sound signature wasn’t a million miles from the HA-300. There are definitely similarities.
> 
> The Enleum 23R is darker, thicker, the background is blacker, it’s slightly more resolving, more dynamic, faster, treble has more attack, bass is fuller but still textured and chiselled like the HA-300, tonality is similar to the HA-300, vocals are more forward, it’s a more energetic but potentially more fatiguing listen depending on your preferences, I don’t think it’s as refined as the HA-300.
> 
> ...


All one needs to do, is roll some Elrog ER300B's and the dynamics/impact, detail and refinement is there in spades with the mk2.

Then roll some different 6SN7's, for further tweaking/refinement. . .

I have so much dynamics/impact with my mk2 it’s startling at times, and tube rolling definitely got me where I wanted the amp to be.


----------



## Yggy

Sorry to hear about the problems you’ve had with your 300b tubes. Theoretically, with the polystyrene packaging over the tubes and the cage over the top of the polystyrene, the tubes shouldn’t have much room to move during transit. Clearly, that wasn’t the case for you though. 

I found changing the tubes tricky and unnerving to begin with but I got more comfortable doing it over time. The 300b socket is sunk and slightly wobbly as you say. I assume that’s to do with the desired form factor and the height of some 300b tubes. The extra wobbliness is presumably needed because you can’t hold and wiggle the sunk tube at its base. I worried about holding the tube too tightly when removing it and the glass breaking between my fingers. 

Teething problems like this are frustrating. I bought a Burson Conductor 3XR last year and it blew both drivers in my Susvaras after 10 minutes due a faulty op amp. To add insult to injury, it wasn’t a patch on my HA-300. Another time I bought a projector, didn’t plug it in properly, and it blew the power supply when I turned it on. It was away for 4-5 weeks being repaired at my expense. 

Earlier today, a delivery guy attempted to deliver my Enleum 23R when I was out. I didn’t get a notification from my video doorbell and the delivery guy didn’t leave a calling card. I drove to my local collection point and depot to see if he’d left it there, spotted the delivery van parked on the way, the driver recognised me, he slipped over on some ice outside my house once and I cleaned him up, so I got the package.


----------



## Yggy

Wes S said:


> All one needs to do, is roll some Elrog ER300B's and the dynamics/impact, detail and refinement is there in spades with the mk2.
> 
> Then roll some different 6SN7's, for further tweaking/refinement. . .


I spent as much on WE300b new production and Sylvania 6SN7W metal base NOS tubes for my HA-300 as I did on the amp used. The I spent as much again on cables into and out of the HA-300. 

My fancy tubes and cables improve tonality and clarity for sure but you can’t make an HA-300 sound as dynamic and impactful as an Enleum 23R with tubes, cables, DACs, or power conditioners. 

I was speaking to a local hifi shop guy and he was singing the praises of the Elrogs ER300b tubes he’d just upgraded to on his new Feliks Envy. He said there were two types of Elrog 300b tubes, one was OK but the other one was killer good, is it the version with a ceramic base? I looked online and couldn’t work it out. 

From what I’ve read the Envy is more dynamic and impactful than the HA-300 but you trade off a little bit of tonal beauty and refinement to achieve that.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Wes S said:


> All one needs to do, is roll some Elrog ER300B's and the dynamics/impact, detail and refinement is there in spades with the mk2.
> 
> Then roll some different 6SN7's, for further tweaking/refinement. . .
> 
> I have so much dynamics/impact with my mk2 it’s startling at times, and tube rolling definitely got me where I wanted the amp to be.


I like your style of thinking....


----------



## Wes S (Nov 8, 2022)

Yggy said:


> I spent as much on WE300b new production and Sylvania 6SN7W metal base NOS tubes for my HA-300 as I did on the amp used. The I spent as much again on cables into and out of the HA-300.
> 
> My fancy tubes and cables improve tonality and clarity for sure but you can’t make an HA-300 sound as dynamic and impactful as an Enleum 23R with tubes, cables, DACs, or power conditioners.
> 
> ...


I have yet to read a comparison of the Envy and HA300mk2 with the same tubes, so until that happens it's hard to really know how they differ.

As for the Elrog's, I have the ER version and I am happy as can be.  There is several versions/levels of the Elrog and they get more "neutral" as you climb the latter.  I don't think one is "better" than the other it just depends on what you are looking for.


----------



## paradoxper

Yggy said:


> I spent as much on WE300b new production and Sylvania 6SN7W metal base NOS tubes for my HA-300 as I did on the amp used. The I spent as much again on cables into and out of the HA-300.
> 
> My fancy tubes and cables improve tonality and clarity for sure but you can’t make an HA-300 sound as dynamic and impactful as an Enleum 23R with tubes, cables, DACs, or power conditioners.
> 
> ...


You owe it to yourself to try the Elrogs with your HA-300 alternatively you may be overloaded if you tried the WE300B with Valkyria.
The 23R isn't much dynamically and not impactful as other solid state so you can definitely scale the Cayin.


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## Wes S (Nov 8, 2022)

It's time to see if I can squeeze that last bit of performance out of my HA300mk2, and I just placed an order for the Audio Magic Masterpiece M-1 Beeswax fuse.   This fuse really did wonders for my last amp by lowering the noise floor, increasing dynamics, and opening up the stage, and I can't wait to see how it does with my Cayin.  More to come on my thoughts once I get it. . .


----------



## ThanatosVI

Wes S said:


> It's time to see if I can squeeze that last bit of performance out of my HA300mk2, and I just placed an order for the Audio Magic Masterpiece M-1 Beeswax fuse.   This fuse really did wonders for my last amp by lowering the noise floor, increasing dynamics, and opening up the stage, and I can't wait to see how it does with my Cayin.  More to come on my thoughts once I get it. . .


Is that the current flagship beeswax fuse?

Did you read any comparisons to the SR Purple?


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## Wes S (Nov 8, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> Is that the current flagship beeswax fuse?
> 
> Did you read any comparisons to the SR Purple?


It is the current flagship, and I upgraded from the Purple to the M1 in my last amp, and the M1 is a step up in all regards.  The M1 has better balance top to bottom, with tighter/harder hitting bass and perceptively more detail, compared to the Purple.  Everyone I know that has gone from the Purple to the M1 has said the same thing as me.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Wes S said:


> It is the current flagship, and I upgraded from the Purple to the M1 in my last amp, and the M1 is a step up in all regards.  The M1 has better balance top to bottom, with tighter/harder hitting bass and perceptively more detail, compared to the Purple.  Everyone I know that has gone from the Purple to the M1 has said the same thing as me.


Interesting.
Seems I should go for one of these instead of a 2nd Purple 🤔


----------



## steve468

In the mk. 1 there are actually 2 fuses; I guess the main one is near the plug receptacle on the outside, and another one inside the power section that is, as I understand it, specifically for the 300b. Maybe it’s the same for the mk. 2. Would there be any benefit to changing both fuses, or would just the main power one make an audible difference?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 8, 2022)

steve468 said:


> In the mk. 1 there are actually 2 fuses; I guess the main one is near the plug receptacle on the outside, and another one inside the power section that is, as I understand it, specifically for the 300b. Maybe it’s the same for the mk. 2. Would there be any benefit to changing both fuses, or would just the main power one make an audible difference?


The mk2, uses a total of 3 fuses.  2 fuses in the amp (one each for the 300B's), and then 1 on the power supply.  All fuses are accessed from the outside on the mk2, and are easily to swap.  I am thinking the 1 in the power supply is where you will get the best results, and that's all I plan on doing.


----------



## Wes S

ThanatosVI said:


> Interesting.
> Seems I should go for one of these instead of a 2nd Purple 🤔


I would go with the M1, or you will always be wondering how much better it can get.


----------



## Yggy

paradoxper said:


> You owe it to yourself to try the Elrogs with your HA-300 alternatively you may be overloaded if you tried the WE300B with Valkyria.



I’m hoping to try them in a Feliks Envy in December. 



paradoxper said:


> The 23R isn't much dynamically and not impactful as other solid state so you can definitely scale the Cayin.



For sure. My SMSL SA400 cost 10% of what the Enleum 23R cost, it’s 5 times more powerful, even smaller and lighter, and is far more dynamic and impactful. 

It’s a bit rough around the edges though, like your CFA3. Do you think it would be worth me pre-amping my SA400 with 300b tubes? I’m wondering how much it would scale.


----------



## JeffMann

I recently purchased a Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier and I have being using it with my Susvara headphone.

I connected my Musician Aquarius DAC (which outputs 1.79V via RCA) to the Cayin amp with a RCA connector.

With the impedance setting at "M" the volume control is between 10 - 12 o'clock at my normal listening level.

When I chose the "H" impedance setting the volume control is in the same position (for the same sound volume level) despite the amp being capable of outputting 6W over the XLR headphone connector while it can only output 2.4W when using the "M" impedance setting. Why is there no difference? It seems to imply that the extra 3.6W may only be available during loud orchestral climaxes, but I cannot hear any difference in sound quality during orchestral climaxes between the "M" and "H" setting. Why?

Jeff.


----------



## ThanatosVI

JeffMann said:


> I recently purchased a Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier and I have being using it with my Susvara headphone.
> 
> I connected my Musician Aquarius DAC (which outputs 1.79V via RCA) to the Cayin amp with a RCA connector.
> 
> ...


Simply because you don't use more power at your listening level.
With 2.4W even the Susvara plays at over 100db


----------



## paradoxper

Yggy said:


> I’m hoping to try them in a Feliks Envy in December.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You should definitely try and see how things compare to 23R. Then it is just the beginning.


----------



## JeffMann

ThanatosVI said:


> Simply because you don't use more power at your listening level.
> With 2.4W even the Susvara plays at over 100db


Thanks for the info.

Talking about power - what is the purpose of the VU meter? I noted that it has two scales - the top scale is in reverse order starting at 20 and going to zero. What is it measuring and why? The bottom scale is from zero => 100%. In what sense is it useful?

A question to Cayin HA300 + Susvara users. If it is possible to use either the "M" impedance setting or the "H" setting, what audible differences do you note between these two choices? Which impedance setting do you choose and why? 

Jeff.


----------



## Yggy

JeffMann said:


> A question to Cayin HA300 + Susvara users. If it is possible to use either the "M" impedance setting or the "H" setting, what audible differences do you note between these two choices? Which impedance setting do you choose and why?



Initially, I used Low with my Susvaras with a higher volume setting to compensate. That was the cleanest sound to my ears for quieter music genres like female vocals. AndyKong, the Cayin Rep who posts here, recommended using Medium for Susvaras so I started doing that. 

For Abyss Phi TC, Hifiman HE-6, and AKG K1000 I’ve always used High. The benefit of more oomph for these headphones was more clear cut. 

For Fostex TH900 MKII, I use Low. They’re easy to drive. Lovely headphones for DAPs at their price point.


----------



## TheMiddleSky

JeffMann said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Talking about power - what is the purpose of the VU meter? I noted that it has two scales - the top scale is in reverse order starting at 20 and going to zero. What is it measuring and why? The bottom scale is from zero => 100%. In what sense is it useful?
> 
> ...



Even at Low setting still adequate for Susvara (I tested with 5V DAC though). "Watt" will never tell you the whole story about sound quality. In (99% case) practise of real life, Headphone only drawn certain mW. Signal quality is much more important aspect to determine the sound, not watt.

"M" position is my favourite actually, deliver a little sweeter tone compared to "L".


----------



## jamato8

Has anyone compared this amp to the Eddy Current amps?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 10, 2022)

All this recent talk of impedance setting got me curious again, and as of this morning I have really been digging the medium setting with my VC's.  I have been using the low setting since getting the amp due to it being the quietest and I thought it was the most lifelike sounding, however after switching to medium the sound became quite a bit more lifelike with more magic in the mids (especially vocals) and staging.  I am still at the same volume on the pot, but there is definitely more magic to sound with more detail (especially with vocals) and nuances coming through.  The sound has become more immediate and clear sounding and the staging has more depth and 3dness at the same time (this is what I call magic) on the medium setting with my VC's, and I am digging it.  I suggest giving all 3 settings a try no matter what headphone you are using and it really is awesome to have 3 options.


----------



## dnd3241 (Nov 11, 2022)

Can anyone tell me how long it needs to totally warm up the HA-300 MK2 ? In my set up from first start up until it going to perfect working condition needs 45min ! Is it normal ? Thanks !


----------



## ThanatosVI

dnd3241 said:


> Can anyone tell me how long it needs to totally warm up the HA-300 MK2 ? In my set up from first start up until it going to perfect working condition needs 45min ! Is it normal ? Thanks !


What do you classify as "perfect working conditions "?


----------



## dnd3241

ThanatosVI said:


> What do you classify as "perfect working conditions "?


Bass is tight and deep, no hiss on high, sound stage open, details easy to pick up, no broken on vocal....these all not qualify at the first 30 min but after that is a totally different story.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 11, 2022)

dnd3241 said:


> Can anyone tell me how long it needs to totally warm up the HA-300 MK2 ? In my set up from first start up until it going to perfect working condition needs 45min ! Is it normal ? Thanks !


I usually turn my amp on and let it warm-up for a good 30 minutes before I really do any critical listening.  That said, it sounds pretty darn good immediately, and my tubes usually settle down within 5 minutes. Of note, this is with my Elrog ER300B's and NOS RFT 6SN7's and with the stock Gold Lion 300B's it did take a good 30 to 40 minutes for them to settle down.  The Elrog's are much quieter than the Gold Lions.  The stock Gold Lions are bottom of the barrel 300B's by the way and don't do the amp or 300B's any justice in my opinion.


----------



## dnd3241

Wes S said:


> I usually turn my amp on and let it warm-up for a good 30 minutes before I really do any critical listening.  That said, it sounds pretty darn good immediately, and my tubes usually settle down within 5 minutes. Of note, this is with my Elrog ER300B's and NOS RFT 6SN7's and with the stock Gold Lion 300B's it did take a good 30 to 40 minutes for them to settle down.  The Elrog's are much quieter than the Gold Lions.  The stock Gold Lions are bottom of the barrel 300B's by the way and don't do the amp or 300B's any justice in my opinion.


Thanks your information, my HA-300 MK2 was arrived in last night from my friend who own it for 4 months and it should be  break in and one thing is much important is 100% dead quiet. My Susvara and 1266 suddenly present a new life to me, especially the bass and stage of 1266 I'm really happy about it.


----------



## alekc

dnd3241 said:


> My Susvara and 1266 suddenly present a new life to me, especially the bass and stage of 1266 I'm really happy about it.



@dnd3241 I think Susvara requires tube amp. It is only then when real magic happens and full potential is being exploited/discovered  Congrats on great amp and set of cans


----------



## JeffMann

Wes S said:


> I usually turn my amp on and let it warm-up for a good 30 minutes before I really do any critical listening.  That said, it sounds pretty darn good immediately, and my tubes usually settle down within 5 minutes. Of note, this is with my Elrog ER300B's and NOS RFT 6SN7's and with the stock Gold Lion 300B's it did take a good 30 to 40 minutes for them to settle down.  The Elrog's are much quieter than the Gold Lions.  The stock Gold Lions are bottom of the barrel 300B's by the way and don't do the amp or 300B's any justice in my opinion.


I wonder why the stock Gold Lion 300B tubes were not quiet in your amp. 

I have just purchased a Cayin HA300MK2 amp and it is dead-silent. I can turn the volume control all the way up to maximum and there is no hiss or hum noise.  

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I wonder why the stock Gold Lion 300B tubes were not quiet in your amp.
> 
> I have just purchased a Cayin HA300MK2 amp and it is dead-silent. I can turn the volume control all the way up to maximum and there is no hiss or hum noise.
> 
> Jeff.


If the pins of the 300B are not a good tight fit in the socket, there can be noise. I don't care for the sockets they are using in the unit. True, old sockets were often the same, in old radios from the 20s and 1930s but the material used to clamp the pins was much better and usually made good contact.


----------



## helljudgement

jamato8 said:


> Has anyone compared this amp to the Eddy Current amps?


I've heard the Cayin on several occasions and own a Studio B which I assume is the EC amp you're referring to since it's the only amp that Craig makes the last 2 years and it's a 300b. Some very brief description off the top of my head. All comparison done dynamic driver headphones like utopia, verite and atrium but the differences are very consistent throughout all headphones.

The Cayin has noticeably more midrange bloom than the EC. It is lush and at the same time not feeling like it is overdone. The EC does pull back that bloom a bit more  while still retaining that same lush overtone in the midrange just not as emphasized as the Cayin. It's a toss up in terms of midrange presentation and totally up to preference. Bass on the Cayin is rounded with a big mid bass punch. The EC is noticeably tighter and does seem to extend a tad bit more to the sub but it's still a slightly rounded sound as expected. Staging on the Cayin is holographic with excellent width. Everything feels plenty stretched out not in a forced, unnatural manner and it provides a very immersive listening. The staging on EC is noticeably wider and deeper than the Cayin to my ears. It's the first thing I noticed when I first hear it and it amazes me that there's an amp that actually makes me appreciate staging that bit more on a headphone. A good tube amp in my experience always provide very satisfying staging and I feel the Cayin and EC both does this exceptionally well but the EC just edges out. It is the widest sounding headphone amp I've heard thus far.

Overall the differences mainly comes down to tonality. The EC feels like a 300b amp made for someone who don't fully appreciate the 300b sound, which I'd describe as bloomy, midrange heavy sound where as the Cayin is more true to the the traditional 300b sound. The Cayin is also way more powerful than the EC so do take that into consideration if you're running planars. Both exceptional amps in their own right.

*Do note that this comparison is not void of bias nor is it fair. I've main my EC since receiving it over a year ago so I have much more experience with it and the source gear is selected to maximize the potential of the amp while I mainly listen to the Cayin off their own brand daps and delta sigma dacs from Matrix and Benchmark in various shows conditions so not the most ideal of conditions. Take it with a single grain of salt if I were you*


----------



## jamato8

helljudgement said:


> I've heard the Cayin on several occasions and own a Studio B which I assume is the EC amp you're referring to since it's the only amp that Craig makes the last 2 years and it's a 300b. Some very brief description off the top of my head. All comparison done dynamic driver headphones like utopia, verite and atrium but the differences are very consistent throughout all headphones.
> 
> The Cayin has noticeably more midrange bloom than the EC. It is lush and at the same time not feeling like it is overdone. The EC does pull back that bloom a bit more  while still retaining that same lush overtone in the midrange just not as emphasized as the Cayin. It's a toss up in terms of midrange presentation and totally up to preference. Bass on the Cayin is rounded with a big mid bass punch. The EC is noticeably tighter and does seem to extend a tad bit more to the sub but it's still a slightly rounded sound as expected. Staging on the Cayin is holographic with excellent width. Everything feels plenty stretched out not in a forced, unnatural manner and it provides a very immersive listening. The staging on EC is noticeably wider and deeper than the Cayin to my ears. It's the first thing I noticed when I first hear it and it amazes me that there's an amp that actually makes me appreciate staging that bit more on a headphone. A good tube amp in my experience always provide very satisfying staging and I feel the Cayin and EC both does this exceptionally well but the EC just edges out. It is the widest sounding headphone amp I've heard thus far.
> 
> ...


Thank you! What 300B tubes?


----------



## UntilThen

alekc said:


> @dnd3241 I think Susvara requires tube amp. It is only then when real magic happens and full potential is being exploited/discovered  Congrats on great amp and set of cans



I have been trying to tell the world that but solid state amps lovers wouldn't, couldn't comprehend. There's a colony of us out there and it's growing rapidly. Listening to Susvara with my tube amp is an experience of the outer kind. It's surreal. The euphonism hits you like an avalanche of snow cascading down the mountain. Sit back and chill or be ingnited in flames. The supernovas will vaporised you but Susvara will be left standing and the Dame serenading hauntingly.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 11, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I wonder why the stock Gold Lion 300B tubes were not quiet in your amp.
> 
> I have just purchased a Cayin HA300MK2 amp and it is dead-silent. I can turn the volume control all the way up to maximum and there is no hiss or hum noise.
> 
> Jeff.


They were quiet after they ping and ponged for a good hour or so, and it's hit or miss with quiet tubes and especially cheaper new production.  I wasn't talking about background noise, I was talking about the tube warming up and the metal parts expanding.  I too can turn the amp all the way up and it's quiet with the tube combo I am using.


----------



## llamaluv

Wes S said:


> All this recent talk of impedance setting got me curious again, and as of this morning I have really been digging the medium setting with my VC's.



Agreed, the Verite Closed sings on medium or high. 

I usually leave it on high. The difference between the two isn't much, though the difference between low and medium is quite dramatic. Much more so than any differences when using planars or even any sub-100-ohm dynamics I've ever tried on the HA-300.


----------



## helljudgement

jamato8 said:


> Thank you! What 300B tubes?


Linlai Elite on EC and probably stock on the Cayin.


----------



## justanut

FML.. spent half an hour trying to determine which part of my chain got moved and resulted in a very obvious hiss... Only to realise finally that my plug from the Diablo was not all the way in. Had unplugged it a week ago to feed the 300M2 from 1ZM2 and clean forgot to check it first.


----------



## JeffMann (Nov 12, 2022)

I thought about purchasing a Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier for ~8 months before I finally decided to purchase it. There were two major factors that made me hesitant to buy the amplifier - i) reports of hum-or-hiss noise and ii) the difficulty finding NOS 22de4 rectifier tubes.

Now that I own the amplifier, I am very happy to discover that it is totally free of any hum/hiss noise problem.

In this post, I am going to describe how I solved the problem of finding 22de4 tubes.

I actually started to look for 22de4 tubes many months before I purchased the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier. Arcxenos sent me a link to an ebay listing that enabled me to purchase two GE 22de4 tubes. However, I wanted to own at least 3 sets of four 22de4 tubes as backups because they are reputed to only last 5 -10 years. So, I continued my search for 22de4 tubes.

The first place that I found 22de4 tubes was at vacuumtubesinc - see https://vacuumtubesinc.com/index.php/catalogsearch/result/?q=22de4

They do not offer a choice of brands and they sent me 8X Westinghouse tubes at $3 per tube - see Tubes22de4Six.jpg image.

I continued my search and then I hit the jackpot and found a very cheap source of 22de4 tubes - see https://www.surplussales.com//Tubes-Sock-Acc/7-99/TubesListed_7-99_4.html

Note that they offer three choices of 22de4 tube - i) various brands at $2 per tube, ii) GE-branded tubes at $1.90 per tube and iii) Sylvania-branded tubes at $3 per tube.

When I contacted the company, they stated that the Sylvania choice was not available, so I ordered 20X GE-branded 22de4 tubes.
I received twenty GE-branded 22de4 tubes - 11 had a coin-base (see Tubes 22de4Four.jpg image) and 9 had a broad base (see Tubes22de4Five.jpg image). They all arrived in white boxes.

I now had enough 22de4 tubes for my personal needs. However, I decided to do an experiment on behalf of other Cayin tube amplifier owners who would be interested in purchasing backup 22de4 tubes. Because it would only cost me $64, I ordered 32 of the various brands choice of 22de4 tubes.

Here is what I received.

See Tubes22de4One.jpg image - note that I received 9X RCA-branded 22de4 tubes, which either had a broad base or a coin base. There was one 22de4 tube labelled Triad and one 22de4 tube labelled Major Brand (which actually stated on the box that the tube could be used).

See Tubes22de4Two.jpg image - note that I received 6X GE-branded 22de4 tubes in their original boxes. I also received 4X Sylvania-branded 22de4 tubes in yellow-colored boxes and 1X Raytheon 22de4 tube in its original box.

See Tubes22de4Three.jpg image - note that I received 6X white boxed 22de4 tubes, which contained the same coin-based GE-tubes that I received when I ordered only GE-branded tubes. Three 22de4 tubes came unboxed and they were simply wrapped in a saran-wrap type or bubble wrap material - they were 1X Philco-branded 22de4 tube, 1X Raytheon-branded 22de4 tube and 1X Dumont-branded 22de4 tube.

That represents quite a mixed hotpotch variety of 22de4 tubes! It is a pity that the company will not allow a purchaser to choose a specific brand of 22de4 tube.

I do not have a tube tester so I never tested any of these 22de4 tubes, but they all look unused and visually intact.

I will probably freely donate these 32X 22de4 tubes to other Cayin tube amplifier users in the more distant future if they state that they can no longer find 22de4 tubes. However, it is still possible to buy 22de4 tubes at a very cheap price as demonstrated by my present experience!

I hope that my divulging of two sources of 22de4 tubes is of great use to Cayin tube amplifier owners who have been looking for 22de4 tubes without success. If anybody wants to do me a return favor, you can consider my proposal below.

I have ordered a pair of Elrog ER300B tubes based on many favorable reports, but I do not know how to choose replacement NOS 6sn7 tubes. I have read the threads on 6sn7 tubes, but the choice is overwhelmingly complex for a neophyte like me and I also do not know of a reliable seller of NOS 22de4 tubes. I only want to eventually own about two-to-three pairs of NOS 22de4 tubes that that will suit my musical taste. So, if there is a forum member who wants to do me a personal favor and loan me a pair of 6sn7 for a few weeks - I would highly appreciate that opportunity. It would be even be better if that person would be willing to sell me that pair of 22de4 tubes if I decide that they suit my personal musical taste. By the way, I only plan to start looking for NOS 6sn7 tubes in early spring because I first want to get used to the musical sound quality of the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes combined with the Elrog 300B tubes (which I hope to receive within a few weeks).

Jeff.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 13, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I thought about purchasing a Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier for ~8 months before I finally decided to purchase it. There were two major factors that made me hesitant to buy the amplifier - i) reports of hum-or-hiss noise and ii) the difficulty finding NOS 22de4 rectifier tubes.
> 
> Now that I own the amplifier, I am very happy to discover that it is totally free of any hum/hiss noise problem.
> 
> ...


Well done!  I have been rolling rectifiers from the start and they definitely can influence the sound and especially with bass and staging.

I actually rolled a few yesterday and landed on a pair of Sicte in the back two slots and a pair of Raytheon (Japan) Black Plates in the front two slots and I am really digging the combo.

It will be interesting to see which rectifiers end up preferring, and you are in for a treat once you get those Elrog ER300B's.


----------



## Wes S

The fuse has been delivered and has been installed.  Let the fun begin. .  .


----------



## tinariwen

There’s GE NOS NIB 22DE4 tubes in quad sets for sale on eBay at the moment, sold by thetuberoom


----------



## shafat777

Hey @Wes S, between the Ge and RCA which 22de4 tubes do you prefer as your rectifier tube ?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 13, 2022)

shafat777 said:


> Hey @Wes S, between the Ge and RCA which 22de4 tubes do you prefer as your rectifier tube ?


I prefer the G.E. by quite a bit.  The RCA are too laid back and diffused sounding to me, and as a result lack the immediacy and impact I get with the G.E.


----------



## JeffMann

tinariwen said:


> There’s GE NOS NIB 22DE4 tubes in quad sets for sale on eBay at the moment, sold by thetuberoom


They look identical to the GE-22de4 tubes that I purchased for $1.90 per tube, while he is charging $69.95 for 4 tubes.

Jeff.


----------



## JeffMann

Wes S said:


> I prefer the G.E. by quite a bit.  The RCA are too laid back and diffused sounding to me, and as a result lack the immediacy and impact I get with the G.E.


Can you explain why different brands of 22de4 rectifier tubes should affect the sound quality considering the fact that they only act to change the AC to DC in the power supply unit?

Also, why would changing the fuse type in the power supply unit affect the sound quality?

Jeff.


----------



## shafat777

Wes S said:


> I prefer the G.E. by quite a bit.  The RCA are too laid back and diffused sounding to me, and as a result lack the immediacy and impact I get with the G.E.


Speaking of which, i have two different sets of GE tubes. One are short(er) coin base GE (shorter than coin base stock RCA tubes) and the other are non coin base (tall base??) GE tubes. Anything special about either types?

Thanks


----------



## tdx

If anyone is interested in a pair of low hours Takatsuki 300Bs pls pm me, going to put them up on the classifieds later today.


----------



## Wes S

shafat777 said:


> Speaking of which, i have two different sets of GE tubes. One are short(er) coin base GE (shorter than coin base stock RCA tubes) and the other are non coin base (tall base??) GE tubes. Anything special about either types?
> 
> Thanks


The non coin base are the earlier version, and I feel sound a bit warmer/more organic.


----------



## shafat777

Wes S said:


> The non coin base are the earlier version, and I feel sound a bit warmer/more organic.


Thanks for the great info boss. I have also heard similar things about sylvania 22de4 tubes but so far i have yet to find one out in the wild.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 13, 2022)

Wes S said:


> The fuse has been delivered and has been installed.  Let the fun begin. .  .


It's been 3 hours and I have not stopped listening yet!  This fuse is freaking unreal in the HA300mk2!   It's not even burned in and I am hearing things I have never heard before in songs I have listened to hundreds of times and I am feeling every note as if I was there.  The texture, and way the notes hang in the air all around my head and way outside the cups in incredible, and the bass is so tight, deep and explosive I can literally feel it.  The detail, and air in the mids is insane and the depth and height of the stage is stunning.  It's like the amp has been supercharged and I can't stop listening.  I can crank the volume and it keeps getting better the louder I go. . .

It's amazing what lowering the noise floor does, and I also think there is some other kind of magical voodoo going on as well based on what I am hearing.


----------



## tinariwen

JeffMann said:


> They look identical to the GE-22de4 tubes that I purchased for $1.90 per tube, while he is charging $69.95 for 4 tubes.
> 
> Jeff.


Can you link to where? They’re hard to find in matched quads


----------



## shafat777

Wes S said:


> It's been 3 hours and I have not stopped listening yet!  This fuse is freaking unreal in the HA300mk2!   It's not even burned in and I am hearing things I have never heard before in songs I have listened to hundreds of times and I am feeling every note as if I was there.  The texture, and way the notes hang in the air all around my head and way outside the cups in incredible, and the bass is so tight, deep and explosive I can literally feel it.  The detail, and air in the mids is insane and the depth and height of the stage is stunning.  It's like the amp has been supercharged and I can't stop listening.  I can crank the volume and it keeps getting better the louder I go. . .
> 
> It's amazing what lowering the noise floor does, and I also think there is some other kind of magical voodoo going on as well based on what I am hearing.


Which fuse are you referring to? Is it similar to the ones at the back of the HA-6A? I think my ha6a uses high voltage 250ma fuses


----------



## ColSaulTigh

tdx said:


> If anyone is interested in a pair of low hours Takatsuki 300Bs pls pm me, going to put them up on the classifieds later today.


Put this in the 300B thread as well.  They'll go quickly depending on how you price them.


----------



## JeffMann

tinariwen said:


> Can you link to where? They’re hard to find in matched quads


What is a matched quad when it comes to 22de4 tubes?

I thought that each 22de4 tube in a Cayin HA300Mk2 headphone amplifier works independently, so there is no need for tube matching.

Jeff.


----------



## ThanatosVI

JeffMann said:


> What is a matched quad when it comes to 22de4 tubes?
> 
> I thought that each 22de4 tube in a Cayin HA300Mk2 headphone amplifier works independently, so there is no need for tube matching.
> 
> Jeff.


They are independent, no need for matched tubes, they don't even have to be the same Brand.

If one tube dies it is also sufficient to replace only the dead tube and no need to change all


----------



## jamato8

I used to use the 6X4 rectifier a lot. A very nice tube, even better sounding in doubled up for the higher demand, than the GZ34 and all the different brands but it boiled down to the GE being the best. And I have around 150 or more NOS and the GE, which surprised me, lasted longer and just sound better than the other 6X4 types. 

So rectifiers make a difference and the wafer base tubes they supply are the last runs of tubes from the 1980. In some tubes, there were not very good as the people who knew how to wind the tubes were going away and it is a real art to do it well and takes around 6 months on the line to learn it correctly. This is also one reason it has taken so long for newly manufactured tubes to come up to sound and life qualities and gets near many of the old tubes. Also the metallurgy understanding and methods was basically lost. I have 1929 to 1931 NOS 27 tubes from Sylvania in fine mesh plate (precursor to the 6SN7 types) that are just better than anything made today or even after they were made but not enough around to be worth making commercial products to use them.


----------



## krude (Nov 13, 2022)

alekc said:


> @dnd3241 I think Susvara requires tube amp. It is only then when real magic happens and full potential is being exploited/discovered  Congrats on great amp and set of cans


My experience as well, it needs as much current as you can pump into it to activate dynamics and weight you will struggle to get from SS.

I use mine exclusively with Cayin HA6a on full blast and it sounds pretty endgame in my system. I will get the HA300 MK2 anyway when I get some liquidity next year, but anyone compared it to HA6a? Will it supersed it, complement it, or is it just different and I might be better off staying with HA6a? I like punchy dynamics, warm signature with extended and weighty bass.


----------



## ThanatosVI

krude said:


> My experience as well, it needs as much current as you can pump into it to activate dynamics and weight you will struggle to get from SS.
> 
> I use mine exclusively with Cayin HA6a on full blast and it sounds pretty endgame in my system. I will get the HA300 MK2 anyway when I get some liquidity next year, but anyone compared it to HA6a? Will it supersed it, complement it, or is it just different and I might be better off staying with HA6a? I like punchy dynamics, warm signature with extended and weighty bass.


Without having heard the Ha300 myself I assume that they will complement each other.

300B and EL34/KT88 tubes have their own sound signatures not really replicateable by the other.


----------



## jamato8

ThanatosVI said:


> Without having heard the Ha300 myself I assume that they will complement each other.
> 
> 300B and EL34/KT88 tubes have their own sound signatures not really replicateable by the other.


True. The 300B bends more to the music, the 34 much less so and the 88 bends the music and it all depends upon how they are used and with what type of demand.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 13, 2022)

shafat777 said:


> Which fuse are you referring to? Is it similar to the ones at the back of the HA-6A? I think my ha6a uses high voltage 250ma fuses


The fuse that is on the power supply where you plug in the power cord.  I have changed the fuse on my last 3 amps, and each time with positive results.

I just looked at a picture online and it appears the HA-6A uses a 1.25A 250V slow blow size small. 

https://highend-electronics.com/pro...piece-m-1-beeswax-fuse?variant=39609102663798


----------



## Wes S (Nov 13, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> Can you explain why different brands of 22de4 rectifier tubes should affect the sound quality considering the fact that they only act to change the AC to DC in the power supply unit?
> 
> Also, why would changing the fuse type in the power supply unit affect the sound quality?
> 
> Jeff.


Both killer questions, and that I would love to know the answers to as well.


----------



## shafat777

Wes S said:


> The fuse that is on the power supply where you plug in the power cord.  I have changed the fuse on my last 3 amps, and each time with positive results.
> 
> I just looked at a picture online and it appears the HA-6A uses a 1.25A 250V slow blow size small.
> 
> https://highend-electronics.com/pro...piece-m-1-beeswax-fuse?variant=39609102663798


Oh thanks, The amp came with a set of extra fuses and on the package it says 160MA 250V.....is that the same as the one you linked? Heres a pic


----------



## jamato8

shafat777 said:


> Oh thanks, The amp came with a set of extra fuses and on the package it says 160MA 250V.....is that the same as the one you linked? Heres a pic


What does it say on the actual fuse? Never saw one that was rated so low and at 160mA. That would not be for the power side, it is too low.


----------



## Wes S

shafat777 said:


> Oh thanks, The amp came with a set of extra fuses and on the package it says 160MA 250V.....is that the same as the one you linked? Heres a pic


That's a different size than what I saw pictured and linked to.  There may be more than one fuse in the amp.  Mine has fuses for each 300B and then one for the power supply.  I only changed the power supply and it says the rating right on the back of the amp where you put the plug.  The fuse I linked to is the one that goes to the power supply.


----------



## shafat777 (Nov 13, 2022)

Wes S said:


> That's a different size than what I saw pictured and linked to.  There may be more than one fuse in the amp.  Mine has fuses for each 300B and then one for the power supply.  I only changed the power supply and it says the rating right on the back of the amp where you put the plug.  The fuse I linked to is the one that goes to the power supply.


These are the sets that came with my amp. What says on the package is what says on the fuse itself. As far as I know there's only one set of fuse and that's next to the power supply. I think right now, I have the left one in the pic installed in my amp. Please let me know if it's the right now or if I need to switch it to the other one

Here's a pic of my amp manual where it describes the two types of fuses. Which one should I use? Does it matter? 

Thank you


----------



## Wes S (Nov 13, 2022)

shafat777 said:


> These are the sets that came with my amp. What says on the package is what says on the fuse itself. As far as I know there's only one set of fuse and that's next to the power supply. I think right now, I have the left one in the pic installed in my amp. Please let me know if it's the right now or if I need to switch it to the other one


Not sure what's what now?  Do you have the manual?  My Cayin came with spare fuses, one set for the power tubes and then another for the power supply and it tells you in the manual where they go.

Also, if you have not changed the fuse before, it should have the correct size already in it.


----------



## shafat777

Wes S said:


> Not sure what's what now?  Do you have the manual?  My Cayin came with spare fuses, one set for the power tubes and then another for the power supply and it tells you in the manual where they go.


My apologies. It seems my amp uses two set of fuses. One set is called High Voltage 160ma250V while the power supply fuse is labeled T2AL250V. I think that mystery is solved for now. What I would like to know is which of these fuses is worth replacing to get more out of my HA6A?


----------



## Wes S

shafat777 said:


> My apologies. It seems my amp uses two set of fuses. One set is called High Voltage 160ma250V while the power supply fuse is labeled T2AL250V. I think that mystery is solved for now. What I would like to know is which of these fuses is worth replacing to get more out of my HA6A?


The T2A 250V is the one I would change.

https://highend-electronics.com/pro...piece-m-1-beeswax-fuse?variant=39609102729334


----------



## JeffMann

I have another question about the power output of the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier.

I personally prefer to use the "H" impedance setting for my Susvara headphone. According to Cayin, the high impedance setting allows the amplifier to produce a maximum of 6W output out of the 4-pin XLR output. Does that 6W power output figure only apply to a high impedance headphone or does it also apply to my Susvara headphone which has a medium impedance of 60ohm?

Jeff.


----------



## tinariwen

JeffMann said:


> I have another question about the power output of the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier.
> 
> I personally prefer to use the "H" impedance setting for my Susvara headphone. According to Cayin, the high impedance setting allows the amplifier to produce a maximum of 6W output out of the 4-pin XLR output. Does that 6W power output figure only apply to a high impedance headphone or does it also apply to my Susvara headphone which has a medium impedance of 60ohm?
> 
> Jeff.


I’ve got the same setup and have wondered the same. I also wonder what, if any, affect running high impedance has on sound


----------



## jamato8

So where are people getting the Elrog in the US?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jamato8 said:


> So where are people getting the Elrog in the US?


Parts Connexion.  Call them and get on the list.  Usually takes 3-ish weeks for them to arrive.  They're currently (giggity) the internet darlings, so there's a pretty high demand.  It's unlikely you'll find them in stock anywhere (although I may be mistaken).


----------



## Wes S (Nov 14, 2022)

The Audio Magic M1 fuse is continuing to amaze me with how much it's cleaned up the power/noise.  As a result, the transparency/detail and dynamics have increased and the bass hits harder, tighter and deeper, the mids are more present, the highs soar but are also less harsh, and finally the staging has opened up a bit more with better depth and height.   The level of enjoyment/engagement with the new fuse has increased and it's flat out amazing what this little thing can do.

Back to musical bliss. . .


----------



## Wes S

jamato8 said:


> So where are people getting the Elrog in the US?


https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-86824.html


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Wes S said:


> https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-86824.html


In stock!  I wasn't expecting that...


----------



## incredulousity

ColSaulTigh said:


> In stock!  I wasn't expecting that...


Even if they are not, email Chris, and he will get you on the list, and more importantly, follow up!


----------



## JeffMann

ColSaulTigh said:


> In stock!  I wasn't expecting that...


The Elrog ER300B tubes are not really in stock and available for immediate delivery.

They will simply ask for a $100 deposit and place you on the list for a future incoming pair.

Jeff.


----------



## joseG86

Hi there fellas,

I've read almost all pages already haha, I sold my HA-6A and in the market for HA-300 MK2

If anyone knows a great dealer in Europe with great discount please let me know!!

Thanks!


----------



## tinariwen

joseG86 said:


> Hi there fellas,
> 
> I've read almost all pages already haha, I sold my HA-6A and in the market for HA-300 MK2
> 
> ...


Not Europe, but Hifonix in the UK has (or had it) for a really good price. Think it was 3.8k instead of 5k


----------



## dnd3241

JeffMann said:


> I have another question about the power output of the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier.
> 
> I personally prefer to use the "H" impedance setting for my Susvara headphone. According to Cayin, the high impedance setting allows the amplifier to produce a maximum of 6W output out of the 4-pin XLR output. Does that 6W power output figure only apply to a high impedance headphone or does it also apply to my Susvara headphone which has a medium impedance of 60ohm?
> 
> Jeff.


I selected M with Susvara , it seem not about the power to kick the susvara, I believed it's about matched of the nature of your headphone.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 15, 2022)

I am so excited right now I just have to share!   I have this amp and my system so freaking dialed in right now, it's making my VC's sound other worldly.    I finally found a tube combo that is super quiet and with the addition of the Audio Magic M1 fuse, the amp is the quietest it's been so far. The lower noise floor really lets the music breathe and more nuance and detail is coming through as well as the stage opening up and the dynamics have increased as well. Having spent the last 6 years in this hobby climbing the ladder in performance with amps, DAC's, and cables (I started with an OG Schiit Magni/Modi), I finally feel like I have arrived at the place I was dreaming of from the start. Cayin sure does know how to tune and design an amp, and the HA300mk2 is flat out perfection sonically and visually. With my system right now, the bass is so tight, deep, textured and impactful you can literally feel it, the mids are just so right, detailed and natural/lifelike it's insane, and the highs extend and sparkle but are never harsh. The staging and imaging are both incredible and the musicians are fully fleshed out and you can easily follow one specific instrument or you can just relax and get lost in the music. The staging is so expansive and effortless, sound goes way outside the cups and seemingly fills my entire room, of which makes my VC's and Atticus sound like open backs. Lastly, having everything dialed in lets me crank the volume to insane levels, and it just keeps getting better the louder I go.  I am enjoying my system so much, I have barely been sleeping the last few days as I just can't get enough.

System specifics that got me where I am at listed below.

Tubes - Elrog ER300B, RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates, Sicte (1 pair) and G.E. (1 pair) 22DE4
Cables - Audio Envy Interconnects and Power Cables
Fuse - Audio Magic M1
DAC - Sonnet Morpheus
Streamer - Sonnet Hermes
Headphone Cable - Norne Solvine 2s (Silver 40% / Copper 60%)

Moral of the story . . .connect the amp to a good DAC, roll some tubes until you find quiet ones, upgrade the cables, swap the fuse and get ready for some magic!

Back to the music.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Wes S said:


> ...
> 
> System specifics that got me where I am at listed below.
> 
> ...


There's the magic ingredient!

I LOVE my Solvine - I've used it non-stop since I picked it up a few months ago!


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> I am so excited right now I just have to share!   I have this amp and my system so freaking dialed in right now, it's making my VC's sound other worldly.    I finally found a tube combo that is super quiet and with the addition of the Audio Magic M1 fuse, the amp is the quietest it's been so far. The lower noise floor really lets the music breathe and more nuance and detail is coming through as well as the stage opening up and the dynamics have increased as well. Having spent the last 6 years in this hobby climbing the ladder in performance with amps, DAC's, and cables (I started with an OG Schiit Magni/Modi), I finally feel like I have arrived at the place I was dreaming of from the start. Cayin sure does know how to tune and design an amp, and the HA300mk2 is flat out perfection sonically and visually. With my system right now, the bass is so tight, deep, textured and impactful you can literally feel it, the mids are just so right, detailed and natural/lifelike it's insane, and the highs extend and sparkle but are never harsh. The staging and imaging are both incredible and the musicians are fully fleshed out and you can easily follow one specific instrument or you can just relax and get lost in the music. The staging is so expansive and effortless, sound goes way outside the cups and seemingly fills my entire room, of which makes my VC's and Atticus sound like open backs. Lastly, having everything dialed in lets me crank the volume to insane levels, and it just keeps getting better the louder I go.  I am enjoying my system so much, I have barely been sleeping the last few days as I just can't get enough.
> 
> System specifics that got me where I am at listed below.
> 
> ...


Now you only need to scale to the best driver so you may expose your full chain.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 15, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> Now you only need to scale to the best driver so you may expose your full chain.


I am waiting for the ZMF Caldera Closed to get released, and then I will be all set.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Wes S said:


> I am waiting for the ZMF Caldera Closed to get released, and then I will be all set.


The Verite closed has some awesome looking variants.  Really looking forward to a Caldera closed. (Or also closed Atrium)


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> I am waiting for the ZMF Caldera Closed to get released, and then I will be all set.


You better be sure CC can outperform VC. Grab an HE-6, 1266 or Susvara.


----------



## jamato8

paradoxper said:


> You better be sure CC can outperform VC. Grab an HE-6, 1266 or Susvara.


An HE-6 would be harder to find but more comfortable than the 1266. I like the Expanse quite a bit.


----------



## paradoxper

jamato8 said:


> An HE-6 would be harder to find but more comfortable than the 1266. I like the Expanse quite a bit.


I don't know if the Expanse would be fitting. Could be complementary to VC but neither is that upper echelon which makes something like Elite a better fit.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 15, 2022)

paradoxper said:


> You better be sure CC can outperform VC. Grab an HE-6, 1266 or Susvara.


It's nothing but close back ZMF headphones for me, however thanks for the suggestions.

Also, I am not looking to best my VC's as I don't think that's possible, and I am just looking for another flavor of ZMF awesomeness.  So, it's the Caldera Closed next without a doubt.


----------



## jamato8

paradoxper said:


> I don't know if the Expanse would be fitting. Could be complementary to VC but neither is that upper echelon which makes something like Elite a better fit.


Can you explain further on the Expanse?


----------



## paradoxper

jamato8 said:


> Can you explain further on the Expanse?


Too specialized (maybe hitting and therein missing with Harman Curve) with limp transient response, lacking tonal density, or, say, planar weight and overall spatial quality.
Where Elite slides in more balanced but lacking ultimate resolution of stats or 1266/Susvara.


----------



## jamato8

paradoxper said:


> Too specialized (maybe hitting and therein missing with Harman Curve) with limp transient response, lacking tonal density, or, say, planar weight and overall spatial quality.
> Where Elite slides in more balanced but lacking ultimate resolution of stats or 1266/Susvara.


Interesting. I will have to listen closer. 

I think the ES R10 should sound very nice.


----------



## EagleKent

jamato8 said:


> Can you explain further on the Expanse?


I have heard both Stealth and Expanse and to my ears, they just don't have anything special.  For instance, putting on the 1266 TC I was immediately impressed by how airiness and perceived clarity it provides, like listening to speakers.  Putting on the Susvara I was immediately hit by how realistic the sound was (the most natural/realistic hp I have ever heard).  Guess the Harmon Curve is just not my cup of tea...


----------



## jamato8

EagleKent said:


> I have heard both Stealth and Expanse and to my ears, they just don't have anything special.  For instance, putting on the 1266 TC I was immediately impressed by how airiness and perceived clarity it provides, like listening to speakers.  Putting on the Susvara I was immediately hit by how realistic the sound was (the most natural/realistic hp I have ever heard).  Guess the Harmon Curve is just not my cup of tea...


From my understanding they used the Harmon curve and then did a few changes. Yes the 1266 is special. I just wish it was nicer to wear. I do like the HE-6 as well, different but still when powered well. I have the 1st run HE-6.


----------



## jamato8

Does anyone have a link to the owner manual for the 300B MKII? Also I have seen 2 amp and 1.25 amp slow blow for the input. Does anyone know what they recommend?


----------



## Erwinatm

EagleKent said:


> I have heard both Stealth and Expanse and to my ears, they just don't have anything special.  For instance, putting on the 1266 TC I was immediately impressed by how airiness and perceived clarity it provides, like listening to speakers.  Putting on the Susvara I was immediately hit by how realistic the sound was (the most natural/realistic hp I have ever heard).  Guess the Harmon Curve is just not my cup of tea...


+1 . Susvara is the best combo with HA300 compare to Atrium, Expanse and VC.


----------



## Wes S

jamato8 said:


> Does anyone have a link to the owner manual for the 300B MKII? Also I have seen 2 amp and 1.25 amp slow blow for the input. Does anyone know what they recommend?


3.15A 250V Slow Blow size small for U.S.
1.6A 250V Slow Blow size small for U.K.


----------



## steve468

Wes S said:


> 3.15A 250V Slow Blow size small for U.S.
> 1.6A 250V Slow Blow size small for U.K.


If you don't mind me asking, can you specifically talk about the noise floor with the new fuse? I've found tubes that are quiet enough, but getting rid of that last bit of tube grunge on high impedance would help. The VCs in particular are probably the most sensitive headphones I've heard beyond portable stuff, and in my system could definitely benefit from even a 5% quieter background. My amp is ALMOST dead quiet on high impedance, but not quite.

You've almost got me on team fuse, from a (former?) non-believer. Thanks for your help.


----------



## jamato8

steve468 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, can you specifically talk about the noise floor with the new fuse? I've found tubes that are quiet enough, but getting rid of that last bit of tube grunge on high impedance would help. The VCs in particular are probably the most sensitive headphones I've heard beyond portable stuff, and in my system could definitely benefit from even a 5% quieter background. My amp is ALMOST dead quiet on high impedance, but not quite.
> 
> You've almost got me on team fuse, from a (former?) non-believer. Thanks for your help.


What type of sound are you getting? The 22DE4 is a half wave rectifier tube, which produces much more ripple than a full wave rectifier and therefore more work has to be done to get to clean DC. Besides being very cheap, the 22DE4 can be had for 50 cents in volume, is an interesting choice and I speculate (it was used in TVs etc.) that with the cost of tube rectifiers it was one to dive into, though a full wave would have put out much more power and been easier to work with to get the ripple (which causes noise0 to a very low level.


----------



## steve468

jamato8 said:


> What type of sound are you getting? The 22DE4 is a half wave rectifier tube, which produces much more ripple than a full wave rectifier and therefore more work has to be done to get to clean DC. Besides being very cheap, the 22DE4 can be had for 50 cents in volume, is an interesting choice and I speculate (it was used in TVs etc.) that with the cost of tube rectifiers it was one to dive into, though a full wave would have put out much more power and been easier to work with to get the ripple (which causes noise0 to a very low level.


It's just tube noise, like a hiss. I can get more or less noise depending on what 6SN7s I have in. It's really not too much of a problem, I'm just hoping for some fine tuning on high impedance with my most sensitive headphones.

I haven't rolled the 22de4, so I can't say their effect on noise. I have tried to order some GE and Sylvania, so we'll see about that.


----------



## jamato8

I see on eBay that some advertise a tube as refurbished. Please don't fall for that. You can't refurbish a tube. They used to talk about trying to refurbish the cathode and did experiments but it did not pan out. A used tube is a used tube and many on eBay are very used and a waste of time and money. The 22DE4 was an inexpensive half wave rectifier tube. Millions were produced and many were thrown in the dump when TVs etc. that use them were no longer around.


----------



## steve468

jamato8 said:


> I see on eBay that some advertise a tube as refurbished. Please don't fall for that. You can't refurbish a tube. They used to talk about trying to refurbish the cathode and did experiments but it did not pan out. A used tube is a used tube and many on eBay are very used and a waste of time and money. The 22DE4 was an inexpensive half wave rectifier tube. Millions were produced and many were thrown in the dump when TVs etc. that use them were no longer around.


And unfortunately, now they seem to be pretty rare. They can be found, and apparently Cayin has quite a stock, but the variety leaves something to be desired. I never thought I'd be excited to hear a GE tube!


----------



## jamato8

steve468 said:


> And unfortunately, now they seem to be pretty rare. They can be found, and apparently Cayin has quite a stock, but the variety leaves something to be desired. I never thought I'd be excited to hear a GE tube!


I have two devices that use the 6X4 rectifier. I delved deep into them at one point, trying all manufactures from the US, Europe and Japan. I have so many NOS. lol But the best, to my surprise and I have way too many, the GE 6X4. Not only does it last longer, it just sounds better. So you never know. :^) 

The 22DE4 is being bought up by companies in China at a rapid rate. I just spoke to a friend that had over 400 and they all got bought by a company in China and he has other requests from China. So it is the lates on the want list. It sat dormant for a long time since it is a half wave rectifier and uses a 22.4 volt heater voltage, when most are 6.3 or double that. But it is so easy to make a transformer with a 22.4 volt or any other winding you need. There just had to be a need and now the tubes are going fast and being stockpiled. But you waste half the power of the AC being used and have much higher ripple to deal with and get rid of. Such is life, strange as this all is.


----------



## steve468

jamato8 said:


> I have two devices that use the 6X4 rectifier. I delved deep into them at one point, trying all manufactures from the US, Europe and Japan. I have so many NOS. lol But the best, to my surprise and I have way too many, the GE 6X4. Not only does it last longer, it just sounds better. So you never know. :^)
> 
> The 22DE4 is being bought up by companies in China at a rapid rate. I just spoke to a friend that had over 400 and they all got bought by a company in China and he has other requests from China. So it is the lates on the want list. It sat dormant for a long time since it is a half wave rectifier and uses a 22.4 volt heater voltage, when most are 6.3 or double that. But it is so easy to make a transformer with a 22.4 volt or any other winding you need. There just had to be a need and now the tubes are going fast and being stockpiled. But you waste half the power of the AC being used and have much higher ripple to deal with and get rid of. Such is life, strange as this all is.


Interesting info. I wonder if this new demand means someone will make a new production version. NOS are better, but I find that once you get to the 70's and 80's, which I believe the stock 22DE4 are, new production are pretty close in general.


----------



## jamato8

steve468 said:


> Interesting info. I wonder if this new demand means someone will make a new production version. NOS are better, but I find that once you get to the 70's and 80's, which I believe the stock 22DE4 are, new production are pretty close in general.


Right, much of the late tube production wasn't very good. All the skilled people were dying or retired and the metallurgy wasn't as good, and they didn't care. Transistors were in, Tubes out. 

Still a low demand tube so if they would tool up to make them, hard to know and they most likely would be too expensive but they are a simple tube but it would have been better, IMO, to have gone with a full wave rectifier and used two of them. The possibilities of using all of the different types of GZ34/5AR4 would have been excellent fun and so much better. But if the amp sounds good now, what the heck. And I will know in a few days. :^)


----------



## steve468

jamato8 said:


> Right, much of the late tube production wasn't very good. All the skilled people were dying or retired and the metallurgy wasn't as good, and they didn't care. Transistors were in, Tubes out.
> 
> Still a low demand tube so if they would tool up to make them, hard to know and they most likely would be too expensive but they are a simple tube but it would have been better, IMO, to have gone with a full wave rectifier and used two of them. The possibilities of using all of the different types of GZ34/5AR4 would have been excellent fun and so much better. But if the amp sounds good now, what the heck. And I will know in a few days. :^)


Let us know what you think when yours arrives! I don't think I've read one negative thing about the HA-300 yet, at least sound wise.


----------



## TomKorn

I have a question: Would the HA-300 MKII work with *Stax headphones*?

Thanks! 🙌


----------



## jamato8

TomKorn said:


> I have a question: Would the HA-300 MKII work with *Stax headphones*?
> 
> Thanks! 🙌


No, an electrostatic amp is entirely and drastically different. It has a bias voltage and a high voltage, though exceedingly low current.


----------



## TomKorn

jamato8 said:


> No, an electrostatic amp is entirely and drastically different. It has a bias voltage and a high voltage, though exceedingly low current.


Thanks for your explanation. i thought as much. 🙏


----------



## ThanatosVI

TomKorn said:


> I have a question: Would the HA-300 MKII work with *Stax headphones*?
> 
> Thanks! 🙌


Not by itself, but with an electrostatic Energizer like an ifi iESL or Mjölnir SRD-7 it would be able to drive even electrostats


----------



## EagleKent (Nov 16, 2022)

TomKorn said:


> I have a question: Would the HA-300 MKII work with *Stax headphones*?
> 
> Thanks! 🙌


I have mine (L700) connected to the Stax amp via HA-300B MKII 3.5mm output to XLR input (of the Stax amp) and it works great.  And more silent too   I could also use XLR output to XLR input but reserve the XLR output for the ZMF VC.  Really loving how I can switch between the Stax and ZMF based on the mood


----------



## Wes S

Did someone say 22dE4. . . Here's a few of mine that I am rolling.






 I just started a rollathon yesterday with my collection of 22dE4's, and they all sound good now that I have the M1 fuse in the amp.

You can most definitely lower or raise the noise floor with rolling the rectifiers.  I am currently running a quad of Sicte and they are the quietest of the bunch.  Also, I have found that rolling rectifiers influences bass response and staging the most.

G.E. are the most forward and dynamic, and RCA are the most relaxed with the biggest stage, and the rest are somewhere in between.  Next roll is going to be a quad of Sylvania’s.


----------



## jonathan c

Wes S said:


> Did someone say 22dE4. . . Here's a few of mine that I am rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The great sound from your 22DE4s _et al_ definitely keep you young! Your age hasn’t changed! 👍🤣🤣🤣


----------



## ARCXENOS

I would love to try the sylvanias 22de4 someday, but alas the online market appears to be empty


----------



## jonathan c

ARCXENOS said:


> I would love to try the sylvanias 22de4 someday, but alas the online market appears to be empty a vacuum.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021.] 🤣


----------



## ThanatosVI

Wes S said:


> Did someone say 22dE4. . . Here's a few of mine that I am rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That explains why they are nowhere to find, you have the remaining World stock for yourself


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## TomKorn

EagleKent said:


> I have mine (L700) connected to the Stax amp via HA-300B MKII 3.5mm output to XLR input (of the Stax amp) and it works great.  And more silent too   I could also use XLR output to XLR input but reserve the XLR output for the ZMF VC.  Really loving how I can switch between the Stax and ZMF based on the mood


How? Sorry for asking but what's the point of 2 amps? 🤔😅


----------



## EagleKent

TomKorn said:


> How? Sorry for asking but what's the point of 2 amps? 🤔😅


Stax headphones need an electrostatic amp to drive hence can't connect to HA-300B directly.


----------



## paradoxper

TomKorn said:


> How? Sorry for asking but what's the point of 2 amps? 🤔😅


Electrostats require very high voltage and work differently from conventional dynamics so you need an amplifier that provides the bias voltage.


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## jamato8

Has anyone used the 5692 tube? I have some but they have never been my favorite. The 5691, the 6SL7 variant is very good but always found the 5692, the long life and slightly lower rated 6SN7 to be overly warm and not as dynamic as the 5691.


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## Wes S (Nov 19, 2022)

Rolled in one of my quads of 60's Sylvania 22DE4's yesterday and I am loving what I am hearing.  The Sylvania's are very well balanced top to bottom, with incredible bass slam, that is tighter than the G.E.'s and goes even deeper too.  In fact, the bass with the Sylvania's is the strongest, tightest, most impactful bass I have heard with the amp so far, and has speed, impact and texture for days.  Using my VC's the bass sounds extremely planar like (you can literally feel the vibrations and texture), and even more so than it did with the 60's G.E. 22DE4.   The mids are very even and detailed and the highs are airy and extended with sparkle, but stay fatigue free at the same time.  The Sylvania walk a fine line between speed with detail/transparency and easy going smoothness and stay fatigue free no matter how much I crank the volume.  The vocals aren't as forward as the G.E.'s and are more in line with the rest of the instruments and the images are tight, huge and fulley fleshed out.  The staging is also massive and the most holographic I have heard yet, with height and depth for days. Long story short, I am loving what I am hearing and this quad of Sylvania 22DE4's are staying in the amp for the foreseeable future. . . or at least until I get the itch to try a quad of Raytheons.  

Back to musical bliss.  . .


----------



## Wes S (Nov 19, 2022)

The Sylvania 22DE4's don't just have killer sonics, they also have a nice glow to them.  






I have to say of all the different tube types I have had over the years, the 22DE4 has the coolest looking glow of them all, however the Elrog ER300B's are close second.


----------



## jamato8

Wes S said:


> The Sylvania 22DE4's don't just have killer sonics, they also have a nice glow to them.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say of all the different tube types I have had over the years, the 22DE4 has the coolest looking glow of them all, however the Elrog ER300B's are close second.


What 6SN7s are you using?


----------



## Wes S

jamato8 said:


> What 6SN7s are you using?


RFT Welded Plates with Ceramic Spacers and Dual Foil Cup Getters from 54', and they are the bees knees.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 20, 2022)

How long is the umbilical from the PS to the amp?


Also got some interesting 22DE4 tubes. Getter flash on top, clear mica supports and on the top mica, a glass support for the grid an and bottom mica there is a glass piece. This would make everything very solid. .

No brand on them but test as NOS and very strong, better than GE I have. I have a few thousand tubes and haven't seen a glass piece used like this for the grid.


----------



## Roybenz

Anyone Would like to help with what dac that goes well with the ha300b mk2 ? Looking to blind buy the cayin and would need a good dac to go with it  anyone tried it with moon 680D? Is it a good match?


----------



## bdjul

Roybenz said:


> Anyone Would like to help with what dac that goes well with the ha300b mk2 ? Looking to blind buy the cayin and would need a good dac to go with it  anyone tried it with moon 680D? Is it a good match?


I recommend holo spring 3 or may. Should be good.


----------



## msq123

Roybenz said:


> Anyone Would like to help with what dac that goes well with the ha300b mk2 ? Looking to blind buy the cayin and would need a good dac to go with it  anyone tried it with moon 680D? Is it a good match?


I love TT2 which offers additional flexibility of a solid state amp when needed


----------



## jamato8

They should send a back support with the amp. lol This is the heaviest headphone amp I have every gotten. My wife just rolled her eyes. 

I must say the quality of appearance is extremely good. Using the Expanse on 4.4 balanced right now. Very good but nothing is warmed up yet, nor, of course, burned in. And I have many NOS 6SN7 tubes to try out. Looks good. Music, play on!


----------



## jamato8

Have some tall Sylvania 6SN7W in the amp now. Very nice. Even though the amp is far from burned in, I can easily tell the difference. Wonderful voicing for male singers. Also even more open sounding, 

As a side note, the amp is nice and quiet. And yes, you have to push the 300Bs into place. It is a big tube and you want there to be give in the base if it gets pushed on somehow during shipment or even when taking the amp out of the box. A good precaution.


----------



## Alenotta

Wes S said:


> Rolled in one of my quads of 60's Sylvania 22DE4's yesterday and I am loving what I am hearing.  The Sylvania's are very well balanced top to bottom, with incredible bass slam, that is tighter than the G.E.'s and goes even deeper too.  In fact, the bass with the Sylvania's is the strongest, tightest, most impactful bass I have heard with the amp so far, and has speed, impact and texture for days.  Using my VC's the bass sounds extremely planar like (you can literally feel the vibrations and texture), and even more so than it did with the 60's G.E. 22DE4.   The mids are very even and detailed and the highs are airy and extended with sparkle, but stay fatigue free at the same time.  The Sylvania walk a fine line between speed with detail/transparency and easy going smoothness and stay fatigue free no matter how much I crank the volume.  The vocals aren't as forward as the G.E.'s and are more in line with the rest of the instruments and the images are tight, huge and fulley fleshed out.  The staging is also massive and the most holographic I have heard yet, with height and depth for days. Long story short, I am loving what I am hearing and this quad of Sylvania 22DE4's are staying in the amp for the foreseeable future. . . or at least until I get the itch to try a quad of Raytheons.
> 
> Back to musical bliss.  . .


Man, I just got this amp and have been playing around with tube swap ideas. I feel like a touch more bass would be nice. I was looking at the GEs, but now I may need to search for these mythical sylvannias. Are the GEs much different than the RCAs that come as stock?


----------



## Pashmeister

Hi friends. I am contemplating on the HA-300 mk2. However I’m presented with an option to purchase a demo HA-300 mk1 at more than a 32% discount off retail price.

I understand the advantages of the mk2 over the mk1 for a larger population of cans, but may I ask for opinion on their difference in performance and sound if I was primarily driving Susvaras? Would it be largely the same performance for Susvara and I’d be wiser to save quite a chunk of cash on the less expensive mk1 unit?


----------



## jamato8

Using some 6SN7 JAN Tung-Sol round plate black glass. Very nice.


----------



## JeffMann

jamato8 said:


> Using some 6SN7 JAN Tung-Sol round plate black glass. Very nice.


Can you provide details on the sound quality differences and the magnitude of those differences - compared to the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes?

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> Can you provide details on the sound quality differences and the magnitude of those differences - compared to the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes?
> 
> Jeff.


It will take more time. And the amp isn't burned in yet but at this point the TS Black plate and the Sylvania 6SN7W are both a little more open sounding and the 6SN7W so far would be my favorite but I just put in the TS so need more time. They are NOS so the tube also needs to burn in some. Most tubes I have are NOS. I would also like to try the 5692, never my favorite but look forward to trying it in the MKII.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 22, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> It will take more time. And the amp isn't burned in yet but at this point the TS Black plate and the Sylvania 6SN7W are both a little more open sounding and the 6SN7W so far would be my favorite but I just put in the TS so need more time. They are NOS so the tube also needs to burn in some. Most tubes I have are NOS. I would also like to try the 5692, never my favorite but look forward to trying it in the MKII.


Nice to have another roller in the thread!  This amp responds extremely well to rolling the 6SN7's.


----------



## EagleKent (Nov 22, 2022)

Roybenz said:


> Anyone Would like to help with what dac that goes well with the ha300b mk2 ? Looking to blind buy the cayin and would need a good dac to go with it  anyone tried it with moon 680D? Is it a good match?


I am using Pontus II and no complaints but if I was to do it all again I would probably buy the Chord Qutest as when I A/B between them, they are 98% the same with Qutest sounding a touch more detail and mid-forward (to my ears), which are my preferences.  The Pontus II R2R Dac does seem to have a touch more space between instruments though.  Also to my ears, Qutest is very close to TT2 which makes it a bargain in my opinion.  But if you have the cash, TT2 all the way! 
Also want to add the Qutest renders piano notes very realistically/naturally compared to Pontus.


----------



## Alenotta

Roybenz said:


> Anyone Would like to help with what dac that goes well with the ha300b mk2 ? Looking to blind buy the cayin and would need a good dac to go with it  anyone tried it with moon 680D? Is it a good match?


I'm using the new Gustard R26 DAC. It is pretty great. I've heard it compared favorably to the Pontus and Venus, but I haven't heard them personally. I went with it because it seems like one of the only R2R DACs that has MQA currently. Pretty feature rich in general. Lots of detail and separation. I came from a SMSL m400 which I loved in that price range. The Gustard is a bit less warm than the AKM chipset, but it seems much more dynamic. It has an interesting quality of placing you in the middle of the mix. The HA300 sounds very holographic with it. I wish I had tried the other big DAC players as well to be able to offer comparisons.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> Can you provide details on the sound quality differences and the magnitude of those differences - compared to the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes?
> 
> Jeff.


The Tung-Sol are getting very holographic. Nice air, and at first the bass was a little bloated and heavy but that has tightened up with the TS after some burn in. Very good spatial information.


----------



## Andykong

After taking a long break, I finally return to my computer and lurk around quietly. Turns out I didn't miss my Facebook but I miss this forum. 

I spent a few days checking out discussions and PMs. I read a lot of greetings and support, more than I deserved. Thank you all sincerely. I'll respond to all the PMs "briefly" if they are not outdated or resolved already. However, I can't cover the questions of discussion that were addressed to Cayin or me in various product threads during my absence, so please pardon my silence if you have @ me in this thread but I didn't get back to your question after I resume duty.

By the way, 2023 will be a fascinating year for Cayin, with lots of exciting ideas queueing up for their 30th Anniversary (but no, nothing related to HA-300 or HA-6A  ), COVID makes it impossible to drop by and check out these new developments in person, but l am looking forward to them.


----------



## Andykong

Pashmeister said:


> Hi friends. I am contemplating on the HA-300 mk2. However I’m presented with an option to purchase a demo HA-300 mk1 at more than a 32% discount off retail price.
> 
> I understand the advantages of the mk2 over the mk1 for a larger population of cans, but may I ask for opinion on their difference in performance and sound if I was primarily driving Susvaras? Would it be largely the same performance for Susvara and I’d be wiser to save quite a chunk of cash on the less expensive mk1 unit?



Off the record (and definitely don't quote on this)! 

If Susvara is all that matters to you, then go for the Mk 1, and used the money you saved to roll your 22DE4 and 6SN7, that would be fund and most likely performs better than getting the MK 2 in full retail. 

Off the record (and definitely don't quote on this)!


----------



## mfgillia

Wes S said:


> This amp responds extremely well to rolling the 6SN7's.


It really does. I only started down this rabbit hole to get rid of some noise. Since then have rolled in Linlai Elites, Kenrad VT231, Psvane CV181-T MKII and RCA 5692. 

I'm still somewhat surprised just how noticeably different and recognizable each pair sounds to my ears.


----------



## tinariwen

mfgillia said:


> It really does. I only started down this rabbit hole to get rid of some noise. Since then have rolled in Linlai Elites, Kenrad VT231, Psvane CV181-T MKII and RCA 5692.
> 
> I'm still somewhat surprised just how noticeably different and recognizable each pair sounds to my ears.


Do you have a favourite out of those tubes? I’ve currently got the Psvanes in, and have looked at tube rolling but some of the NOS options are so bloody expensive these days.


----------



## mfgillia

tinariwen said:


> Do you have a favourite out of those tubes? I’ve currently got the Psvanes in, and have looked at tube rolling but some of the NOS options are so bloody expensive these days.


My favorites so far are the 5692 and Psvanes. The latter doesn't get a lot of love on these forums that heavily prefer all things NOS. However, I find the Psvanes pairs well with the Elrog er300Bs, which is where I would generally recommend to spend the money first unless you have a noise problem with the stock Tungsols. 

In my system the Psvanes is a more bass heavy experience paired with the Spring 3 and Atriums than the 5692s but I tend to often enjoy that type of sound signature. Others though may find that to be too much / bloated but not to my ears and preferences.


----------



## krude

Andykong said:


> Off the record (and definitely don't quote on this)!
> 
> If Susvara is all that matters to you, then go for the Mk 1, and used the money you saved to roll your 22DE4 and 6SN7, that would be fund and most likely performs better than getting the MK 2 in full retail.
> 
> Off the record (and definitely don't quote on this)!


That's a very interesting answer, maybe you could help me understand a few things using the example of the Susvara ... I'm trying to piece my experience together and understand what am I hearing.

My observations so far are :
- typical solid state amps can drive Susvara well (using Oor and Hypsos here as an example), it's clean and effortless, but I get the sense the dynamics are subdued
- when I use my HA6a with KT88, high impedance and UL the micro and macro dynamics are a lot better than any headphone SS amp I've tried. I attribute it to higher output current. As I go through output impedances from L to H and then switch to UL I can notice percievable bumps in micro and macro dynamics (along with other changes of course but dynamics are what I'm interested in)

Do I understand it correctly? Is it higher output current that wakes up hard to drive planars like Susvara?

Now to the 2nd part of the question ...
I'm in the same boat as @Pashmeister , looking to get the HA300 (mk1 or mk2) to get even more current with more headroom (assuming my understanding above is correct) to get the most dynamics out of the Susvara. I've noticed that MK1 has higher power output for SE, I think maxing out around 5W ... SE provides half the volatge of BAL? ... so it should provide way more current to get to 5W (again I don't really know what I'm talking about here lol)?

MK2 is rated at 6W BAL, but does it provide same levels of current as MK1 SE?

I guess to boil it down, does MK1 have any advantages over MK2, and vice versa, with regards to Susvara, but also lets say Utopia.

Any explanation and elaboration would be highly appreciated : )


----------



## DMITRIY R

Perhaps someone has already answered this question, I did not find it in the thread.
Has anyone compared head-on Cayin HA-300 MK2, Auris Nirvana MK4, Auris HA-2 SF. How much does the HA-300 MK2 work better with 1266 TC, Susvara, DCA Stealth?


----------



## msq123

DMITRIY R said:


> Perhaps someone has already answered this question, I did not find it in the thread.
> Has anyone compared head-on Cayin HA-300 MK2, Auris Nirvana MK4, Auris HA-2 SF. How much does the HA-300 MK2 work better with 1266 TC, Susvara, DCA Stealth?



Not a comparison with all these amps but this review from headfonics talk about synergies with most headphones you are looking for including Susvara and Stealth (check out their expanse review for synergy with expanse).  Page 3 compares 300 with Auris HA-2SF. 

https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/2/

https://headfonics.com/dan-clark-audio-expanse-review/2/


----------



## ThanatosVI

DMITRIY R said:


> Perhaps someone has already answered this question, I did not find it in the thread.
> Has anyone compared head-on Cayin HA-300 MK2, Auris Nirvana MK4, Auris HA-2 SF. How much does the HA-300 MK2 work better with 1266 TC, Susvara, DCA Stealth?


I wonder how the Ha-2 SF made it into that List 
Is this your current amp?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 23, 2022)

msq123 said:


> Not a comparison with all these amps but this review from headfonics talk about synergies with most headphones you are looking for including Susvara and Stealth (check out their expanse review for synergy with expanse).  Page 3 compares 300 with Auris HA-2SF.
> 
> https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/2/
> 
> https://headfonics.com/dan-clark-audio-expanse-review/2/


That review of the HA300mk2 is with the stock tubes, so take that with a grain of salt.  The amp can change quite a bit with tube rolling, and doing a review of a tube amp without rolling tubes does not do the amp justice in my opinion and doesn't tell the whole story.  The stock tubes (especially the 300B's) are bottom of the barrel sonically and are a good starting point, however rolling better tubes (Elrog ER300B's) takes the amp to another level.


----------



## msq123

Wes S said:


> That review of the HA300mk2 is with the stock tubes, so take that with a grain of salt.  The amp can change quite a bit with tube rolling, and doing a review of a tube amp without rolling tubes does not do the amp justice in my opinion and doesn't tell the whole story.  The stock tubes (especially the 300B's) are bottom of the barrel sonically and are a good starting point, however rolling better tubes (Elrog ER300B's) takes the amp to another level.



I totally agree with you but I feel creating a base line with stock tubes is useful but would be great if they could have a section with some rolling options/impressions. 

Talking about rolling tubes what’s your advice on the order if I want to do one set at a time?  Go for the big boy elrog right away or start with rectification or 6sn7 first? 🍻


----------



## Wes S

Andykong said:


> After taking a long break, I finally return to my computer and lurk around quietly. Turns out I didn't miss my Facebook but I miss this forum.
> 
> I spent a few days checking out discussions and PMs. I read a lot of greetings and support, more than I deserved. Thank you all sincerely. I'll respond to all the PMs "briefly" if they are not outdated or resolved already. However, I can't cover the questions of discussion that were addressed to Cayin or me in various product threads during my absence, so please pardon my silence if you have @ me in this thread but I didn't get back to your question after I resume duty.
> 
> By the way, 2023 will be a fascinating year for Cayin, with lots of exciting ideas queueing up for their 30th Anniversary (but no, nothing related to HA-300 or HA-6A  ), COVID makes it impossible to drop by and check out these new developments in person, but l am looking forward to them.


Glad to have you back Andy!


----------



## Wes S

msq123 said:


> I totally agree with you but I feel creating a base line with stock tubes is useful but would be great if they could have a section with some rolling options/impressions.
> 
> Talking about rolling tubes what’s your advice on the order if I want to do one set at a time?  Go for the big boy elrog right away or start with rectification or 6sn7 first? 🍻


I hate how expensive they are, but I would go for the Elrog's first.  They are super high quality tubes, that are quiet and made to last, and what they do for the amp sonically is stunning.  I would roll the rectifiers last, as they have the least amount of impact and are more for fine tuning.


----------



## Wes S

jamato8 said:


> How long is the umbilical from the PS to the amp?
> 
> 
> Also got some interesting 22DE4 tubes. Getter flash on top, clear mica supports and on the top mica, a glass support for the grid an and bottom mica there is a glass piece. This would make everything very solid. .
> ...


This is such an interesting tube.  I have never seen another 22DE4 like it, and I have done some serious research.  Curious, does it actually have 22DE4 printed on it anywhere?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 23, 2022)

Alenotta said:


> Man, I just got this amp and have been playing around with tube swap ideas. I feel like a touch more bass would be nice. I was looking at the GEs, but now I may need to search for these mythical sylvannias. Are the GEs much different than the RCAs that come as stock?


The G.E.'s are more immediate, and tighter/quicker sounding with better punch, compared to the more laid back and expansive sounding stock RCA's.  The Sylvania are kind of blend of the two with sugar on top.


----------



## Roybenz

Anyone used benchmark dac3 with ha300?


----------



## steve468

krude said:


> That's a very interesting answer, maybe you could help me understand a few things using the example of the Susvara ... I'm trying to piece my experience together and understand what am I hearing.
> 
> My observations so far are :
> - typical solid state amps can drive Susvara well (using Oor and Hypsos here as an example), it's clean and effortless, but I get the sense the dynamics are subdued
> ...


I’m no expert, but my understanding is that a lot of the changes to the mk2 were to make it a quieter amp. The Susvara is so insensitive you won’t notice any difference. On my mk1 with my LCD 4 I don’t get any of the same noise that I do with my more sensitive dynamics (which isn’t even that much with the right tubes).

Andykong can correct me, but I interpreted his post as just meaning the price difference isn’t worth it, not that the mk1 specifically benefits the Susvara. Which is how I decided on mk1 over mk2.


----------



## DMITRIY R

ThanatosVI said:


> I wonder how the Ha-2 SF made it into that List
> Is this your current amp?


I listened to this amplifier not so long ago, so I wanted to get a description of the comparison with it.
Ha-2 SF is available to me for a quick purchase.


----------



## JeffMann

Andy,

Welcome back to this forum's thread. It is very useful to have a Cayin representative available to answer questions about the Cayin HA300 headphone amplifier.

I have a specific question based on my personal experience with my new Cayin HA300MK2 unit. It failed after a few hours use - see post #2331 on page 156 for a description of events. 

As a neophyte tube amplifier owner, who had no previous experience with tube headphone amplifiers, I did not know what was the cause of my problem. In retrospect, I now believe that it was due to the fact that the 300B tubes became loose during shipment and there was no information in the Manual on how to check that the 300B tubes are properly seated. I thought deeply about this issue of "*how to assess whether the 300B tubes are properly seated*" and I expressed my opinions in post #2373 on page 159. I came to the conclusion that the only reliable way to determine that the 300B tubes are properly seated is to visually note that the 300B tube's pins are being firmly grasped by the tube socket's four clamps, and that requires one to turn the amplifier on its side and shine a flashlight through the bottom metal plate's grills. Do you agree/disagree with my opinion? Do you think that there is a better way of accurately determining whether the 300B tubes are properly seated and do you not think that this topic should be addressed in the Manual?

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 23, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> Andy,
> 
> Welcome back to this forum's thread. It is very useful to have a Cayin representative available to answer questions about the Cayin HA300 headphone amplifier.
> 
> ...


When an amp is shipped with larger tubes in place, you don't want accidental pressure on them, which could break the tube or distort the base of the tube, they are often not fully seated. A note should be placed stating that the 300B (in this case) needs to be pushed down to fully seat them into place in the socket.


----------



## JeffMann

jamato8 said:


> When an amp is shipped with larger tubes in place, you don't want accidental pressure on them, which could break the tube or distort the base of the tube, they are often not fully seated. A note should be placed stating that the 300B (in this case) needs to be pushed down to fully seat them into place in the socket.


I think that a note stating that the 300B tubes need to be pushed down to fully seat them is *inadequate.* When I received my Cayin HA300MK2 amp, I did push down on the 300B tubes with the intention of fully seating them, but it didn't work because I was not applying sufficient push-down pressure. I was flabbergasted at how much push-down pressure I really had to apply to fully seat them and I learned from my mistake. A neophyte 300B tube amplifier owner does not have any subjective experience of how much push-down pressure is needed to fully seat those 300B tubes and I think that he must have a better method of knowing that the 300B tubes are fully seated by *confirming* that the ends of the 4 pins are being firmly grasped by the tube socket's mini-clamps.

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I think that a note stating that the 300B tubes need to be pushed down to fully seat them is *inadequate.* When I received my Cayin HA300MK2 amp, I did push down on the 300B tubes with the intention of fully seating them, but it didn't work because I was not applying sufficient push-down pressure. I was flabbergasted at how much push-down pressure I really had to apply to fully seat them and I learned from my mistake. A neophyte 300B tube amplifier owner does not have any subjective experience of how much push-down pressure is needed to fully seat those 300B tubes and I think that he must have a better method of knowing that the 300B tubes are fully seated by *confirming* that the ends of the 4 pins are being firmly grasped by the tube socket's mini-clamps.
> 
> Jeff.


I understand but I can see from the top, if the tubes are seated or not. They could include a hammer? :^)


----------



## tinariwen

Those of you who use the Ha-300mk2 with the Susvara: do you use low, medium or high impedance, and why? Is it because one sounds better than the other, or because of a technical reason?


----------



## jamato8

Using some 5692 red base GE NOS right now. Nice but need to burn them in some. Never cared for the tube but will give it a chance. Have a lot of 6SN7 NOS in a 1952 Sylvania so will play with those later in time.


----------



## Alenotta

Wes S said:


> The G.E.'s are more immediate, and tighter/quicker sounding with better punch, compared to the more laid back and expansive sounding stock RCA's.  The Sylvania are kind of blend of the two with sugar on top.


The photo is definitely wrong here, but does this seem like the right Slyvania in theory? Has anyone ordered from this company before? 

https://www.radwell.com/en-US/Buy/SYLVANIA/SYLVANIA/22DE4/


----------



## jamato8

Alenotta said:


> The photo is definitely wrong here, but does this seem like the right Slyvania in theory? Has anyone ordered from this company before?
> 
> https://www.radwell.com/en-US/Buy/SYLVANIA/SYLVANIA/22DE4/


There would be no way of knowing. Sylvania made the 22DE4 for a few years. And they made in the tall black base and the later coin base. That also seem like a lot of money for a 22DE4. People are starting to pay way too much for the tube. It was produced in the millions and was an inexpensive half wave rectifier.


----------



## Wes S

Alenotta said:


> The photo is definitely wrong here, but does this seem like the right Slyvania in theory? Has anyone ordered from this company before?
> 
> https://www.radwell.com/en-US/Buy/SYLVANIA/SYLVANIA/22DE4/


That same seller has an ebay account and has terrible feedback, so I wouldn’t bother with that one.


----------



## Alenotta

Wes S said:


> That same seller has an ebay account and has terrible feedback, so I wouldn’t bother with that one.


Where the heck are you all finding these tubes? I'd love to try either the GE or Slyvania.


----------



## Skyediver

I bit the bullet and took advantage of Zach’s November headphone and amp bundle (great reduced pricing if you can swing it), with my HA-300B set for FedEx delivery this Friday.  Excited!

I do have a question: while I plan to live with the stock tubes for a bit knowing that’s just good sensible advice with a new tube amp, I am looking forward to tube rolling fun.  The part that’s NOT fun is figuring out where, and from whom to purchase.  Can anyone provide their preferred reputable online vendors?  Interested initially in 300B and driver tube upgrades, just not sure where to confidently buy when I Google search a number of the tubes frequently mentioned in the thread.

At CanJam SoCal this past year, Justin from Ampsandsound shared the reality and high risk of buying tubes through EBay, so trying to stay away from that venue if possible, at least initially, even though I’m sure some here probably use/love that distribution channel.

Thanks in advance from anyone that can share as I look to dive into maximizing this investment as a relative “tube newb” in searching/purchasing good quality tubes, hopefully over the next few years at minimum.


----------



## Skyediver

Alenotta said:


> Where the heck are you all finding these tubes? I'd love to try either the GE or Slyvania.


You basically asked what I’m asking in a much more succinct way, kind sir 😎


----------



## JeffMann

Alenotta said:


> Where the heck are you all finding these tubes? I'd love to try either the GE or Slyvania.


If you look at my post #2415 on page 161, I explained how I purchased both GE and Sylvania 22de4 tubes for $1.90 - $2.00 per tube.

Jeff.


----------



## JeffMann

jamato8 said:


> I understand but I can see from the top, if the tubes are seated or not. They could include a hammer? :^)


I cannot understand how you can see from the top that the 300B tube is fully seated - seeing that there is black perforated plate that obscures one's ability to see the bottom of the well where the 300B tube's base bottom surface should be flat against the ceramic base of the tube socket. I can only see that "fact" *clearly* when viewed from below after removing the bottom plate cover.

Jeff.


----------



## Alenotta

JeffMann said:


> I thought about purchasing a Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier for ~8 months before I finally decided to purchase it. There were two major factors that made me hesitant to buy the amplifier - i) reports of hum-or-hiss noise and ii) the difficulty finding NOS 22de4 rectifier tubes.
> 
> Now that I own the amplifier, I am very happy to discover that it is totally free of any hum/hiss noise problem.
> 
> ...


Thanks for linking back to this. I tuned in after you had posted. I just ordered 18 tubes to see what I get. I'll report what my grab bag includes haha. I wish I lived near some of these warehouses to go browse.


----------



## Skyediver

JeffMann said:


> If you look at my post #2415 on page 161, I explained how I purchased both GE and Sylvania 22de4 tubes for $1.90 - $2.00 per tube.
> 
> Jeff.


Thanks for identifying.  Head-Fi's great, but it IS a bit of a jungle.


----------



## mfgillia (Nov 24, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I think that a note stating that the 300B tubes need to be pushed down to fully seat them is *inadequate.* When I received my Cayin HA300MK2 amp, I did push down on the 300B tubes with the intention of fully seating them, but it didn't work because I was not applying sufficient push-down pressure. I was flabbergasted at how much push-down pressure I really had to apply to fully seat them and I learned from my mistake. A neophyte 300B tube amplifier owner does not have any subjective experience of how much push-down pressure is needed to fully seat those 300B tubes and I think that he must have a better method of knowing that the 300B tubes are fully seated by *confirming* that the ends of the 4 pins are being firmly grasped by the tube socket's mini-clamps.
> 
> Jeff.


As a fellow neophyte 300B amp owner, 100% agree. On this amp you just cannot tell from looking at the 300B tubes whether or not they are fully seated. Whereas with the 6sn7s you can look from the sides and the front to determine how much more work you have left to do.

However, unlike the 6sn7s these will "pop" in and out making an audible sound and sensation when seating and unseating. So what works for me to ensure the 300Bs are seated is to first remove the tubes completely at the base pulling straight up. Then line up the pins per the manual pressing straight down until it "pops" or clicks in.

When I find myself pushing pretty hard but its not "popping" in then I'll stop, take it completely out again, re-line up the pins and try again. Usually on the second or third try it will more easily pop in at which time they're fully seated. Once I got used to how this works its actually easier for me than the 6sN7s, which are a major struggle to get fully seated, and often require first removing the 300B tubes to get my hands in a better position.


----------



## mfgillia (Nov 24, 2022)

Skyediver said:


> I bit the bullet and took advantage of Zach’s November headphone and amp bundle (great reduced pricing if you can swing it), with my HA-300B set for FedEx delivery this Friday.  Excited!
> 
> I do have a question: while I plan to live with the stock tubes for a bit knowing that’s just good sensible advice with a new tube amp, I am looking forward to tube rolling fun.  The part that’s NOT fun is figuring out where, and from whom to purchase.  Can anyone provide their preferred reputable online vendors?  Interested initially in 300B and driver tube upgrades, just not sure where to confidently buy when I Google search a number of the tubes frequently mentioned in the thread.
> 
> ...


Congrats!!! I did exactly the same thing buying mine at ZMF bundled with the Atriums.

For 300Bs highly recommend Parts Connexion (https://www.partsconnexion.com/). Also had good experiences buying tubes at Tube Depot, Viva Tubes and Grant Fidelity.


----------



## jamato8

mfgillia said:


> As a fellow neophyte 300B amp owner, 100% agree. On this amp you just cannot tell from looking at the 300B tubes whether or not they are fully seated. Whereas with the 6sn7s you can look from the sides and the front to determine how much more work you have to left to do.
> 
> However, unlike the 6sn7s these will "pop" in and out making an audible sound and sensation when seating and unseating. So what works for me to ensure the 300Bs are seated is to first remove the tubes completely at the base pulling straight up. Then line up the pins per the manual pressing straight down until it "pops" or clicks in.
> 
> When I find myself pushing pretty hard but its not "popping" in then I'll stop, take it completely out again, re-line up the pins and try again. Usually on the second or third try it will more easily pop in at which time they're fully seated. Once I got used to how this works its actually easier for me than the 6sN7s, which are a major struggle to get fully seated, and often require first removing the 300B tubes to get my hands in a better position.


I don't find taking the tubes in and out difficult but then I have been using tubes for years.


----------



## paradoxper

jamato8 said:


> I don't find taking the tubes in and out difficult but then I have been using tubes for years.


The struggle. 🤣


----------



## Skyediver

mfgillia said:


> Congrats!!! I did exactly the same thing buying mine at ZMF bundled with the Atriums.
> 
> For 300Bs highly recommend Parts Connexion (https://www.partsconnexion.com/). Also had good experiences buying tubes at Tube Depot, Viva Tubes and Grant Fidelity.


Appreciate you sharing!


----------



## dnd3241

Wes S said:


> That review of the HA300mk2 is with the stock tubes, so take that with a grain of salt.  The amp can change quite a bit with tube rolling, and doing a review of a tube amp without rolling tubes does not do the amp justice in my opinion and doesn't tell the whole story.  The stock tubes (especially the 300B's) are bottom of the barrel sonically and are a good starting point, however rolling better tubes (Elrog ER300B's) takes the amp to another level.


A pair of Elrog ER300B cost about $2200-2500 ! !  Any other options is more comfortable on pricing ?


----------



## dnd3241

tinariwen said:


> Those of you who use the Ha-300mk2 with the Susvara: do you use low, medium or high impedance, and why? Is it because one sounds better than the other, or because of a technical reason?


I used medium or low all the time never needs on high impedance.


----------



## mfgillia

dnd3241 said:


> A pair of Elrog ER300B cost about $2200-2500 ! !  Any other options is more comfortable on pricing ?


It's about half that much at Parts Connexion. https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-86824.html


----------



## dnd3241

mfgillia said:


> It's about half that much at Parts Connexion. https://www.partsconnexion.com/ELROG-86824.html


Unfortunately it's out of stock !


----------



## mfgillia

dnd3241 said:


> Unfortunately it's out of stock !


They just got some back in stock a few weeks back but now sold out once again. Guessing they'll have some more relatively soon so you might want to send them a message asking for details.


----------



## ThanatosVI

You guys will drive up the Elrog price even further with your demand, slow down


----------



## ARCXENOS

dnd3241 said:


> Unfortunately it's out of stock !


I see that you are from Hong Kong in your profile, last I know they ship to AUS and SEA, but maybe you can enquire availability from https://www.soundcontextaudio.com/product/elrog-er300b/ , I bought mine direct from them, price is in SGD


----------



## paradoxper

ThanatosVI said:


> You guys will drive up the Elrog price even further with your demand, slow down


It's not that but something else.


----------



## Wes S

paradoxper said:


> It's not that but something else.


Care to share?


----------



## paradoxper

Wes S said:


> Care to share?


I am not at liberty to, sadly.


----------



## tinariwen

dnd3241 said:


> I used medium or low all the time never needs on high impedance.


I used medium for the longest time, but high seems to give it a more dynamic sound. That’s purely my subjective experience though - I’ve no idea if that’s actually the case.

Another chap asked recently if high impedance increases the current and in turn gives it that increased sense of dynamics, but I don’t think they’ve had a response yet.

Any reason you prefer to use low or medium?


----------



## Roybenz

Im considering getting a ha300b mk2,never heard tubes before. I have a Moon 430had with susvara. What could i expect in sound change compared to my SS amp?


----------



## krude

tinariwen said:


> I used medium for the longest time, but high seems to give it a more dynamic sound. That’s purely my subjective experience though - I’ve no idea if that’s actually the case.
> 
> Another chap asked recently if high impedance increases the current and in turn gives it that increased sense of dynamics, but I don’t think they’ve had a response yet.
> 
> Any reason you prefer to use low or medium?


Indeed, it would be amazing to get an answer at some point  I have a very similar expeirence to your with output impedance.


----------



## Skyediver

paradoxper said:


> I am not at liberty to, sadly.


Then why tease???


----------



## paradoxper

Skyediver said:


> Then why tease???


It was addressing a price increase and notion demand can't be met.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 24, 2022)

Parts Connexion will have more 300B in 2 or 3 days. I spoke with them yesterday. And the price of the Elrog hasn't gone up. There are two versions of the Elrog 300B.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 24, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Parts Connexion will have more 300B in 2 or 3 days. I spoke with them yesterday. And the price of the Elrog hasn't gone up. There are two versions of the Elrog 300B.


Awesome to hear!  I hope more HA300 owners will jump on them, as this tube really takes the amp to another level.  In fact once I got the Elrog's in the amp, it scaled so much that pretty much every 6SN7 and 22DE4 I tried sounded amazing.


----------



## JeffMann (Nov 24, 2022)

Wes S said:


> Awesome to hear!  I hope more HA300 owners will jump on them, as this tube really takes the amp to another level.  In fact once I got the Elrog's in the amp, it scaled so much that pretty much every 6SN7 and 22DE4 I tried sounded amazing.


How does the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tube sound in combination with the Elrog 300B tubes?

Is there a significant sound quality difference compared to NOS 6sn7 tubes in that Elrog-based scenario!

Jeff.


----------



## tinariwen

krude said:


> Indeed, it would be amazing to get an answer at some point  I have a very similar expeirence to your with output impedance.


I would imagine someone will have the answer, as it’s a spec thing at the end of the day and (I’m assuming) current output is measured


----------



## jamato8

The 6SN7 will always have an effect on the sound. It normally has the most effect. Good power tubes and then you can change the sound with the input tube. That is true with any amp. The power tube is amplifying what it gets from the 1st tube.


----------



## JeffMann

jamato8 said:


> The 6SN7 will always have an effect on the sound. It normally has the most effect. Good power tubes and then you can change the sound with the input tube. That is true with any amp. The power tube is amplifying what it gets from the 1st tube.


That is what I previously thought, but Wes is seemingly asserting that with the Elrog 300B tubes in place that *all* the 6sn7 tubes (that he tried) sound amazing.

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> That is what I previously thought, but Wes is seemingly asserting that with the Elrog 300B tubes in place that *all* the 6sn7 tubes (that he tried) sound amazing.
> 
> Jeff.


I would imagine the system does sound better but that doesn't mean each tube won't have a sound of its own. Also, it all takes time to settle. A tube amp normally takes 100 to 200 hours of use to settle in, for the caps to form, even for the dielectric to form as it can have a tiny capacitive effect. Then all the wire in the transformers etc. And tubes take some time to settle.


----------



## Skyediver

jamato8 said:


> Parts Connexion will have more 300B in 2 or 3 days. I spoke with them yesterday. And the price of the Elrog hasn't gone up. There are two versions of the Elrog 300B.


There must be a lot of us on the hunt!  I just emailed them to make a request and response was 2-3 weeks. Either way, I could read the tea leaves; got my order in.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 24, 2022)

Skyediver said:


> There must be a lot of us on the hunt!  I just emailed them to make a request and response was 2-3 weeks. Either way, I could read the tea leaves; got my order in.


It would seem there is a higher demand now. I put in a deposit a week ago. I think they had 4 sets left, that are the ones coming in. So the next ones in 2 to 3 weeks makes sense, since the ones coming in now, apparently are all sold.

-------

I notice more noise today. I use a very good filter for the AC but it is getting through. A lot of people home and using the AC so more junk gets in to the AC line.


----------



## Andykong

JeffMann said:


> *Topic: How to determine whether the 300B tubes are properly seated in a Cayin HA300 amplifier?*
> 
> I received my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier last week and the left channel failed after about two hours. See post #2331 to see my description of events. I now know that the cause of this failure was due to the fact that the 300B tubes were not properly seated in their tube sockets and I have acquired new insights into this problem of how to know whether the 300B tubes are properly seated.
> 
> ...





JeffMann said:


> Andy,
> 
> Welcome back to this forum's thread. It is very useful to have a Cayin representative available to answer questions about the Cayin HA300 headphone amplifier.
> 
> ...



First of all, let me clarify that Cayin will install all vacuum tubes properly and test the amplifier individually before we ship it out.  we don't leave a gap purposively for whatever reason.  As @Yggy has pointed out,  we have installed specially formed polystyrene packaging between the vacuum tube and the protective cage, so the tubes should remain at their designated location securely.  This is how we ship all our vacuum tube amplifiers, including the HA-1Amk2, HA-3A, HA-6A, HA-300MK2, and all the speaker amplifiers we produced over the years.  From what we observed, dislocated vacuum tube happens fairly infrequently.

There is an alternative practice in the tube audio industry: instead of installing the vacuum tubes into the amplifier before shipping to customers, we'll remove the vacuum tubes after the QA process, pack the vacuum tubes on their own, and place the vacuum tubes in a separate box and store them at one of the corners in the shipping package.  In our experience, this approach is more efficient and logistic friendly but requires the users to install the vacuum tubes when they unbox the amplifier.

Cayin evaluated both options thoroughly and decided to adopt our current practice simply because we want our users to enjoy our amplifier immediately after they take out the amplifier from the packing box. Installing a vacuum tube might sound straightforward to average tube amplifier users, but it can be tedious and "worrying" for newcomers.  I still remember the day I handle my first vacuum tube amplifier back in early 2000, I had a hard time trying to figure out the correct direction of each vacuum tube before I pushed them into the tube socket. As a result of our decision to pre-install the vacuum tubes, we need to design our packaging with more foam, more space (bigger in volume), and more rigorous packing procedures.  

I read your request ( #2,373 and #2,535) and will suggest Cayin enhance their HA-300MK2 user guide.  The User Guide has a "How to Install Vacuum Tubes" section at the end of the guide already, so all they need to do is to add a reminder to check whether the vacuum tubes are properly installed by shaking the tubes mildly.  If a particular tube is not as secure (or tightly installed) as another tube, then the user should take the tube out and reinstall the vacuum tube according to the instructions at the end of the user guide.


----------



## dnd3241

tinariwen said:


> I used medium for the longest time, but high seems to give it a more dynamic sound. That’s purely my subjective experience though - I’ve no idea if that’s actually the case.
> 
> Another chap asked recently if high impedance increases the current and in turn gives it that increased sense of dynamics, but I don’t think they’ve had a response yet.
> 
> Any reason you prefer to use low or medium?


Simple..low and medium made me feel more comfortable , different set up got different result, Dac, pre-amp, cable, source, power supply....all these elements at the front parts can make a different story.


----------



## jamato8

Andykong said:


> First of all, let me clarify that Cayin will install all vacuum tubes properly and test the amplifier individually before we ship it out.  we don't leave a gap purposively for whatever reason.  As @Yggy has pointed out,  we have installed specially formed polystyrene packaging between the vacuum tube and the protective cage, so the tubes should remain at their designated location securely.  This is how we ship all our vacuum tube amplifiers, including the HA-1Amk2, HA-3A, HA-6A, HA-300MK2, and all the speaker amplifiers we produced over the years.  From what we observed, dislocated vacuum tube happens fairly infrequently.
> 
> There is an alternative practice in the tube audio industry: instead of installing the vacuum tubes into the amplifier before shipping to customers, we'll remove the vacuum tubes after the QA process, pack the vacuum tubes on their own, and place the vacuum tubes in a separate box and store them at one of the corners in the shipping package.  In our experience, this approach is more efficient and logistic friendly but requires the users to install the vacuum tubes when they unbox the amplifier.
> 
> ...


Odd that the tubes would back all the way out of the socket, both of the 300B on mine. Do I mind? No, you always check the tubes that they are seated correctly. But it would take some real G force to pull them both out of the sockets. I would just specify to make sure all tubes are correctly placed/seated, which I think is done but people aren't used to tubes, like they used to be, so for many there isn't the awareness. The packaging for the amp is excellent, IMO, though a back support would be nice for unpacking. lol


----------



## dnd3241 (Nov 24, 2022)

Roybenz said:


> Im considering getting a ha300b mk2,never heard tubes before. I have a Moon 430had with susvara. What could i expect in sound change compared to my SS amp?


I do have Moon 430 and HA-300 MK2 with Susvara, yes.. that is quite a different between this two amp. Both are strong enough to kick the Susvara, you can feel the weight and mass density from Cayin is more than Moon but HA430 is more clean and fast. Beside Cayin and Moon I also got Audiovalve and Ferrum, all those can drive Susvara very well with almost 8W power output but I really enjoy the feeling from Cayin HA-300MK2.


----------



## Erwinatm

tinariwen said:


> I used medium for the longest time, but high seems to give it a more dynamic sound. That’s purely my subjective experience though - I’ve no idea if that’s actually the case.
> 
> Another chap asked recently if high impedance increases the current and in turn gives it that increased sense of dynamics, but I don’t think they’ve had a response yet.
> 
> Any reason you prefer to use low or medium?


Yes. I prefer high setting. More dynamic, vocal slightly bigger and forward. 

The difference is not as much from low to mid.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 24, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Yes. I prefer high setting. More dynamic, vocal slightly bigger and forward.
> 
> The difference is not as much from low to mid.


In high gain setting the signal is not attenuated so you are getting a direct feed from the amp. It should be more dynamic and I most always prefer high gain, even with my daps when using IEMs. But on this amp, the match is for the average resistance of the headphone being used, to match the output transformer to the headphones. I use what sounds best.


----------



## Erwinatm

Andykong said:


> First of all, let me clarify that Cayin will install all vacuum tubes properly and test the amplifier individually before we ship it out.  we don't leave a gap purposively for whatever reason.  As @Yggy has pointed out,  we have installed specially formed polystyrene packaging between the vacuum tube and the protective cage, so the tubes should remain at their designated location securely.  This is how we ship all our vacuum tube amplifiers, including the HA-1Amk2, HA-3A, HA-6A, HA-300MK2, and all the speaker amplifiers we produced over the years.  From what we observed, dislocated vacuum tube happens fairly infrequently.
> 
> There is an alternative practice in the tube audio industry: instead of installing the vacuum tubes into the amplifier before shipping to customers, we'll remove the vacuum tubes after the QA process, pack the vacuum tubes on their own, and place the vacuum tubes in a separate box and store them at one of the corners in the shipping package.  In our experience, this approach is more efficient and logistic friendly but requires the users to install the vacuum tubes when they unbox the amplifier.
> 
> ...



Andy, Cayin's decision to pre installed the tubes is good considering the difficulties to push in tubes in a new sockets. And you have  cage protecting them.

However, I found Cayin's sockets a bit harder to push in compare to other "virgin" sockets. I need extra strength to push in which in my opinion is also good rather than the loosy one.

It's just that alum rings surrounding the 300B holes blocking our sight to see whether it has seated properly. At least for someone new to tube amps. For  tube roller expert it shouldn't be a big problem, of course.


----------



## Erwinatm

jamato8 said:


> In high gain setting the signal is not attenuated so you are getting a direct feed from the amp. It should be more dynamic and I most always prefer high gain, even with my daps when using IEMs.


Curious to know which one you prefer Manley + 1266 or Ha300 + susvara?


----------



## jamato8

Erwinatm said:


> Curious to know which one you prefer Manley + 1266 or Ha300 + susvara?


I don't have the Susvara. But the Manley is well burned in and the Cayin isn't. Need 75 or more hours on it. If solid-state I would just let it burn in but I don't do that with tubes. I like around 200 hours to really know what something is going to do and from there, things tend to refine more, regarding sound.


----------



## JeffMann

Andykong said:


> First of all, let me clarify that Cayin will install all vacuum tubes properly and test the amplifier individually before we ship it out.  we don't leave a gap purposively for whatever reason.  As @Yggy has pointed out,  we have installed specially formed polystyrene packaging between the vacuum tube and the protective cage, so the tubes should remain at their designated location securely.  This is how we ship all our vacuum tube amplifiers, including the HA-1Amk2, HA-3A, HA-6A, HA-300MK2, and all the speaker amplifiers we produced over the years.  From what we observed, dislocated vacuum tube happens fairly infrequently.
> 
> There is an alternative practice in the tube audio industry: instead of installing the vacuum tubes into the amplifier before shipping to customers, we'll remove the vacuum tubes after the QA process, pack the vacuum tubes on their own, and place the vacuum tubes in a separate box and store them at one of the corners in the shipping package.  In our experience, this approach is more efficient and logistic friendly but requires the users to install the vacuum tubes when they unbox the amplifier.
> 
> ...


Andy,

You wrote-: "_The User Guide has a "How to Install Vacuum Tubes" section at the end of the guide already, so all they need to do is to add a reminder to check whether the vacuum tubes are properly installed by shaking the tubes mildly.  If a particular tube is not as secure (or tightly installed) as another tube, then the user should take the tube out and reinstall the vacuum tube according to the instructions at the end of the user guide_."

In my humble opinion, your advice about checking the 300B tube by shaking the tube mildly is not useful advice. It would only work if one 300B tube was still securely/fully seated and then one would notice that there is a difference in the stability of the two 300B tubes. In my situation, both 300B tubes were dislodged (dislocated) and they both were relatively unstable in the sense that they could be easily moved sideways if one used the tip of one's finger to press sideways against the top of the tube. I could easily move the 300B tubes sideways by >1cm. Once I discovered how to securely/fully seat the 300B tubes, I noted that they were more stable and could only be moved by <0.5cm when the same degree of fingertip pressure was applied sideways against the top of the tube. If a neophyte tube amplifier user (who has never owned a 300B tube amplifier) gets a Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier with both 300B tubes dislodged (dislocated) then he will have no previous experience based on the "feel" of stability using your recommended advice.

I think that the User Manual should have additional advice. It should recommend that the User (if he is unsure whether the 300B tubes are properly/fully seated) turn the amplifier on its side and then shine a flashlight through the grills. That will enable him to see whether the last ~3mm of the 300B tube's 4 pins are being firmly grasped by the 4 micro-clamps that are inbuilt into the bottom of the tube socket. If the 300B tubes are not fully seated, they will only be touching the top of the 4 micro-clamps. Cayin should post two photographs showing the difference in how the pins are situated with respect to those 4 micro-clamps - i) being fully/properly seated if the ends of the pins are clearly visible within the 4 micro-clamps and ii) being improperly seated if the ends of the 4 pins are located just above the 4 micro-clamps and not defnitely within the grip of the 4 micro-clamps.

If that advice was available to me when I first received the amplifier, then I would not have experienced the emotionally traumatic fiasco that ensued when I switched the amplifier on with improperly seated 300B tubes. 

Jeff.


----------



## Pashmeister

JeffMann said:


> Andy,
> 
> You wrote-: "_The User Guide has a "How to Install Vacuum Tubes" section at the end of the guide already, so all they need to do is to add a reminder to check whether the vacuum tubes are properly installed by shaking the tubes mildly.  If a particular tube is not as secure (or tightly installed) as another tube, then the user should take the tube out and reinstall the vacuum tube according to the instructions at the end of the user guide_."
> 
> ...


I don’t think Cayin has to do that imho. It’s not a Cayin thing, it’s a tube amp thing. The ask is something for the whole industry


----------



## Alenotta

Wes S said:


> I am so excited right now I just have to share!   I have this amp and my system so freaking dialed in right now, it's making my VC's sound other worldly.    I finally found a tube combo that is super quiet and with the addition of the Audio Magic M1 fuse, the amp is the quietest it's been so far. The lower noise floor really lets the music breathe and more nuance and detail is coming through as well as the stage opening up and the dynamics have increased as well. Having spent the last 6 years in this hobby climbing the ladder in performance with amps, DAC's, and cables (I started with an OG Schiit Magni/Modi), I finally feel like I have arrived at the place I was dreaming of from the start. Cayin sure does know how to tune and design an amp, and the HA300mk2 is flat out perfection sonically and visually. With my system right now, the bass is so tight, deep, textured and impactful you can literally feel it, the mids are just so right, detailed and natural/lifelike it's insane, and the highs extend and sparkle but are never harsh. The staging and imaging are both incredible and the musicians are fully fleshed out and you can easily follow one specific instrument or you can just relax and get lost in the music. The staging is so expansive and effortless, sound goes way outside the cups and seemingly fills my entire room, of which makes my VC's and Atticus sound like open backs. Lastly, having everything dialed in lets me crank the volume to insane levels, and it just keeps getting better the louder I go.  I am enjoying my system so much, I have barely been sleeping the last few days as I just can't get enough.
> 
> System specifics that got me where I am at listed below.
> 
> ...


Looking back through the thread since I just got this amp as well. 

What do the Elroy 300Bs sound like compared to the Gold Lions? I'm really enjoying the Gold Lions as they mellow out during burn in?

You replaced the fuse? I haven't researched what is in it. Is this upgrade really noticeable?


----------



## jamato8

Alenotta said:


> Looking back through the thread since I just got this amp as well.
> 
> What do the Elroy 300Bs sound like compared to the Gold Lions? I'm really enjoying the Gold Lions as they mellow out during burn in?
> 
> You replaced the fuse? I haven't researched what is in it. Is this upgrade really noticeable?


I have some Elroys coming in on Monday. I think the Gold Lion don't sound bad at all. Comparisons are always nice.


----------



## incredulousity (Nov 24, 2022)

Alenotta said:


> Looking back through the thread since I just got this amp as well.
> 
> What do the Elroy 300Bs sound like compared to the Gold Lions? I'm really enjoying the Gold Lions as they mellow out during burn in?
> 
> You replaced the fuse? I haven't researched what is in it. Is this upgrade really noticeable?


Different level entirely. More detail, better staging, improved timbre and space. Most will probably like the ER over the Mo.

I actually have the Gold Lion 300Bs, and like them.


----------



## jamato8

incredulousity said:


> Different level entirely. More detail, better staging, improved timber and space. Most will probably like the ER over the Mo.
> 
> I actually have the Gold Lion 300Bs, and like them.


You have the Mo? I have read a review of it but what do you think of it?


----------



## incredulousity

The Mo is better on technicalities than the ER. It’s a bit less romantic and toooooby sounding, but not by much. It requires better and often NOS tubes as drivers to be all it can be, and a flawless chain, power, and great headphones to be maximally enjoyed.


----------



## jamato8

incredulousity said:


> The Mo is better on technicalities than the ER. It’s a bit less romantic and toooooby sounding, but not by much. It requires better and often NOS tubes as drivers to be all it can be, and a flawless chain, power, and great headphones to be maximally enjoyed.


Thanks. I have a lot of correctness and plenty of fine NOS drivers but some of the romantic sound with clarity and good imaging is good with me.


----------



## Alenotta

Did you guys get your Elrog tubes from Parts Connexion? Pretty big price jump from the entry 300b tubes. May wait on that upgrade...
How does the low end of the Elrog ER compare to the Gold Lion? I'm liking the weight of the Gold Lion. At first they were a little too shouty for me, but they are mellowing out a lot.


----------



## Andykong

jamato8 said:


> In high gain setting the signal is not attenuated so you are getting a direct feed from the amp. It should be more dynamic and I most always prefer high gain, even with my daps when using IEMs. But on this amp, the match is for the average resistance of the headphone being used, to match the output transformer to the headphones. I use what sounds best.


Thank you for your clarification, this is very helpful.    




tinariwen said:


> I used medium for the longest time, but high seems to give it a more dynamic sound. That’s purely my subjective experience though - I’ve no idea if that’s actually the case.
> 
> Another chap asked recently if high impedance increases the current and in turn gives it that increased sense of dynamics, but I don’t think they’ve had a response yet.
> 
> Any reason you prefer to use low or medium?





Erwinatm said:


> Yes. I prefer high setting. More dynamic, vocal slightly bigger and forward.
> 
> The difference is not as much from low to mid.



The High/Mid/Low settings on HA-300Mk2 are part of our matched Impedance output, for more information, please check out *HERE*.

I hope you have not confused between impedance matching with gain control when the latter is only applicable to Solid State amplifiers.  With transformer-coupled, all-tube-designed amplifiers like HA-300MK2 or HA-3A/HA-6A, you won't find any Gain Control (or components that support adjustable gain-ratio)  in the vacuum tubes or output transformers.   To achieve gain control in an all-tube amplifier, we probably need to add an Op-Amp with a supporting circuit between the driver tube and the output tube, which certainly is not a good option for audio performance consideration.


----------



## Yggy

I’m back to listening to my HA-300 MK1 with Abyss 1266 Phi TCs. I had to return my Susvaras for a second time, they had a torn diaphragm this time. Hifiman have the best Customer Service of any company I’ve ever dealt with. 

I didn’t have any problems until I started amp rolling. The first failure was a faulty op amp in a Burson Conductor 3X Reference. I have no idea what caused the second failure. I’ve been rotating through my HA-300, Hegel H95, SMSL SA400, and Enleum 23R. 

I was using the Enleum 23R at they time the left channel failed and I noticed the torn diaphragm through the cup. The Enleum 23R is about 4w into Susvaras so less than half the power of the Hifiman EF1000. 

The one upgrade (of many) that got me really enjoying Phi TCs on the HA-300 MK1 was a DHC Prion4 headphone cable. It balances out the Phi TC sound signature, bass is lighter but more textured, chiselled and focused than with the Forza Noir Hybrid HPC I was using before, the mids fill in more of the gap between the low and high end, everything hangs together better and sounds more natural rather than metallic, v-shaped, and messed with to widen the sound stage and add impact. 

The HA-300 tames and beautifies the Phi TC. You can make it slam twice as hard with more powerful amps but to my ears that can make it sound unbalanced, hollow, metallic, and tonally fake with more gentle music genres. It’s like the guy at the gym who spends all his time developing his upper body and has skinny legs.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 25, 2022)

Alenotta said:


> Looking back through the thread since I just got this amp as well.
> 
> What do the Elroy 300Bs sound like compared to the Gold Lions? I'm really enjoying the Gold Lions as they mellow out during burn in?
> 
> You replaced the fuse? I haven't researched what is in it. Is this upgrade really noticeable?


The Elrog's have tighter, deeper and more textured bass, that is much more present, of which makes the Gold Lions sound slow, weak, and bloated to me.  You can literally feel the bass with the Elrog's and once I heard them, there was no way in hell the Gold Lions were ever going back in the amp.

As for the fuse (Audio Magic M1), it is quite obvious and the noise floor dropped considerably, of which let more detail and nuance come through, it also increased the dynamics and tightened up the sound top to bottom and everything became more snappier and crisp (especially the bass), and lastly the staging became deeper/more holographic and more open/nuanced as well.

My amp is extremely quiet right now with the addition of the upgraded fuse and NOS tubes I have rolled, and it makes the listening so much more engaging.  Hearing all the detail and nuances in the recording with sounds of instruments flying all around my head and way outside the cups is highly addictive.

It took me a bit of tweaking and rolling (just like it did with my last SET the Pendant SE), and it was totally worth it as this amp is an absolute beast when you get it dialed in.


----------



## Andykong

steve468 said:


> I’m no expert, but my understanding is that a lot of the changes to the mk2 were to make it a quieter amp. The Susvara is so insensitive you won’t notice any difference. On my mk1 with my LCD 4 I don’t get any of the same noise that I do with my more sensitive dynamics (which isn’t even that much with the right tubes).
> 
> Andykong can correct me, but I interpreted his post as just meaning the price difference isn’t worth it, not that the mk1 specifically benefits the Susvara. Which is how I decided on mk1 over mk2.



You covered 50% of what I have in mind.

From functional point of view, the two biggest improvements from HA-300 to HA-300MK2 are:

Versatility to work with wider range of headphones.  This is achieved by adding a 4.4mm phone out, offering different outputs between 4.4mm and XLR4, and new volume control with more steps
Noise and vibration control which you have mentioned briefly.

If a customer only cares about the performance with Susvara, versatility is not a relevant consideration.  The low sensitivity of Susvara also implies noise control is not a significant improvement.



krude said:


> That's a very interesting answer, maybe you could help me understand a few things using the example of the Susvara ... I'm trying to piece my experience together and understand what am I hearing.
> 
> My observations so far are :
> - typical solid state amps can drive Susvara well (using Oor and Hypsos here as an example), it's clean and effortless, but I get the sense the dynamics are subdued
> ...



Sorry, I wouldn't want to compare Cayin amplifiers with Oor and Hypsos, this is not allowed by forum rules.  Even comparing against "typical solid state amps" can be regarded as a sensitive topic.

The Susvara (and HE-6) are low-sensitivity low-impedance planars, they pair well with high-voltage high-current amplifiers.  The High Impedance setting will increase the output voltage (on the expanse of certain audio characteristics, such as bass control), and the output current is facilitated by the output transformers.  Therefore by logical deduction, Susvara likes high-power transformer-coupled tube headphone amplifiers.

With the transformer-coupled design, the quality and design of the output transformers play a very significant role.  We didn't design the transformer to pursue the extra 10% rated output, they are the by-product when we revise our output transformer to deliver the new requirements and fully explore the potential of the new amplifier circuit.


----------



## Yggy

That’s my experience too. I have no issues with noise with my Susvaras, Phi TC, and HE-6 on my MK1. Yesterday I could hear some static with no volume on my Phi TCs. I lifted the tube cage off and twiddled the 6SN7 tubes and the static disappeared immediately. I did have some issues with grunge and volume setting with my Utopias with the MK1 so I sold them. Has anybody tried 2022 Utopias with a MK2? That might be a nice combo with the reduced grunge, extra volume play, and Nutopia improvements.


----------



## JeffMann

Andy,

I have a question for you.

Wes has rolled all his tubes that are used in the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier (he is now using Elrog 300B tubes, RFT 6sn7 tubes, and Sicte/GE 22de4 rectifier tubes) and he claims that it has significantly enhanced the sound quality of his Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier. 

Then he replaced the stock fuse in the power supply unit with an Audio Magic M1 fuse and he noted further improvement as follows-: "_As for the fuse (Audio Magic M1), it is quite obvious and the noise floor dropped considerably, of which let more detail and nuance come through, it also increased the dynamics and tightened up the sound top to bottom and everything became more snappier and crisp (especially the bass), and lastly the staging became deeper/more holographic and more open/nuanced as well_."

What I cannot understand is how this significant degree of improvement is possible. If he already achieved a large level of sound quality improvement by replacing *all* of the stock tubes, how is it possible to still achieve yet more improvement by replacing the stock fuse in the power supply unit? What is Cayin's experience in the area? Has Cayin experimented and noted a significant sound quality improvement by either replacing the stock 22de4 tubes with a different brand of 22de4 tubes, and/or by replacing the stock fuse in the power supply unit with a very expensive aftermarket fuse?

Jeff.


----------



## Andykong

JeffMann said:


> Andy,
> 
> I have a question for you.
> 
> ...


Sorry, no comment.  I don't comment on the impression of any users, you should ask him directly.  If you don't trust him, then ignore his sharing, if you trust him, then listen to him.  If you are interested, then give it a try within your capacity.  I won't and never will entertain any question like this.


----------



## Andykong

Erwinatm said:


> Andy, Cayin's decision to pre installed the tubes is good considering the difficulties to push in tubes in a new sockets. And you have  cage protecting them.
> 
> However, I found Cayin's sockets a bit harder to push in compare to other "virgin" sockets. I need extra strength to push in which in my opinion is also good rather than the loosy one.
> 
> It's just that alum rings surrounding the 300B holes blocking our sight to see whether it has seated properly. At least for someone new to tube amps. For  tube roller expert it shouldn't be a big problem, of course.



So we are all good with the exception of the aluminum ring surrounding the 300B holes?    
That is a long-term aesthetic vs short-term operation hassle for new tube-amplifier users.  Maybe this is an arguable decision we make in product development.  I'll share your feedback with Cayin management and ask them to reconsider the decision and implementation. Can't promise we'll change this, but I'll do my best when users raise a legitimate point.


----------



## JeffMann

I have a question about soundstaging.

Wes wrote the following-: "_My amp is extremely quiet right now with the addition of the upgraded fuse and NOS tubes I have rolled, and it makes the listening so much more engaging.  Hearing all the detail and nuances in the recording *with sounds of instruments flying all around my head* and way outside the cups is highly addictive."_

I have been using a headphone-based audio system for 22 years now, and I place a major emphasis on the quality of soundstaging. I mainly listen to classical music and opera via a CD player, and many of those CD recordings create a great soundstaging experience where there is an imaginary soundstage in front of one's head that has width (180 degrees from left-to-right) and depth (to a variable degree) and where there is "air" between instruments. I achieved great soundstaging quality when using the Violectric/Niimbus SS headphone amplifiers to drive my Susvara/HD800 headphones and a similar high degree of soundstaging quality when using the Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier. However, I have never heard sounds "flying around my head", which implies that some of the sounds are coming from behind my head. I would regard that soundstaging scenario as being very suboptimal and it would destroy the satisfaction I get from being able to mentally picture a miniature version of a concert stage in front of me - as if I were in a "real life" concert hall. I have thankfully not heard sounds "flying around my head".

What is the experience of other Cayin HA300 users - do you experience a "flying around the head" soundstaging experience when using your Cayin HA300 headphone amplifier?

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I have a question about soundstaging.
> 
> Wes wrote the following-: "_My amp is extremely quiet right now with the addition of the upgraded fuse and NOS tubes I have rolled, and it makes the listening so much more engaging.  Hearing all the detail and nuances in the recording *with sounds of instruments flying all around my head* and way outside the cups is highly addictive."_
> 
> ...


Good smoke. Always does the trick.


----------



## JeffMann

Andykong said:


> Sorry, no comment.  I don't comment on the impression of any users, you should ask him directly.  If you don't trust him, then ignore his sharing, if you trust him, then listen to him.  If you are interested, then give it a try within your capacity.  I won't and never will entertain any question like this.


I am not really asking you a question about Wes's subjective impressions. I am really asking you a scientific question as to whether Cayin has experimented by changing the brands of 22de4 tubes and power supply fuses to determine whether it can significantly alter the sound quality output of the Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier in a beneficial manner?

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I am not really asking you a question about Wes's subjective impressions. I am really asking you a scientific question as to whether Cayin has experimented by changing the brands of 22de4 tubes and power supply fuses to determine whether it can significantly alter the sound quality output of the Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier in a beneficial manner?
> 
> Jeff.


There are many manufactures of tube amps. It would be impractical and in most cases, impossible to supply a number of the NOS tubes. There are very limited quantities and it is a personal judgment regarding sound. Totally subjective and while X number of people may agree that say the Tung-Sol 6550 black plate 3 hole is the best 6550 tube and sounds superb, that doesn't mean they are available for commercial applications in numbers. Also the price is prohibitive even in minimal numbers. The 22DE4 was produced in the millions but for years they sat on the shelf, in boxes, or out back, ready to go to the dump. So the number needed for applications requiring meaningful implementation are limited and generally, the same manufacture is easiest and most consistent so if X amount of RCA are available then go with it. 

Now the one thing about removable op amps or tubes is that now the consumer can make a choice predicated on their own preferences. And it has always been that way in the tube world. One person may like warm excessively romantic sound and another more concise, neutral and transparent. Being able to change out tubes gives you that choice. 

Regarding fuses, well that is up for debate and not up for debate for others. I have for years used, when slow blow, ceramic sand filled fuses. The sand is there to stop arcing if the fuse fails due to excessive current draw but I always check for sand filled because it dampens the fuse its self. Any micro electromagnetic waves cause distortions. The sand dampens the fuse movement internally. And I prefer the ceramic as it is much stronger as a housing than glass and it is only ceramic that have the sand inside. And I prefer the sound. The cleaner the AC the better the final electricity that the AC musical signal rides on.


----------



## Erwinatm

JeffMann said:


> I have a question about soundstaging.
> 
> Wes wrote the following-: "_My amp is extremely quiet right now with the addition of the upgraded fuse and NOS tubes I have rolled, and it makes the listening so much more engaging.  Hearing all the detail and nuances in the recording *with sounds of instruments flying all around my head* and way outside the cups is highly addictive."_
> 
> ...


You can listen sound "flying around the head" with binaural recording. Dr Chesky's Ultimate headphone demo disc clearly explain and show you how this surround things in really flying around your head.

Link : https://in-akustik.com/en/music-med...ache=1&cHash=ca969c0a1914d341b6de78728fc29f42


----------



## mfgillia

Pro tip - Don't forget to turn the volume to zero before changing headphones as I did just now resulting in a ton of persistent noise.  

Turning the amp off, waiting ten minutes and then turning it back on got everything back to normal again.


----------



## Andykong

JeffMann said:


> Andy,
> 
> You wrote-: "_The User Guide has a "How to Install Vacuum Tubes" section at the end of the guide already, so all they need to do is to add a reminder to check whether the vacuum tubes are properly installed by shaking the tubes mildly.  If a particular tube is not as secure (or tightly installed) as another tube, then the user should take the tube out and reinstall the vacuum tube according to the instructions at the end of the user guide_."
> 
> ...





Pashmeister said:


> I don’t think Cayin has to do that imho. It’s not a Cayin thing, it’s a tube amp thing. The ask is something for the whole industry



I wanted to ignore this question because I know the answer might be unpleasant to some users, but that's won't solve the problem. 

Pashmeister raised a very good point.  When HA-300MK2 is the only tube amplifier that JeffMann has and will handle, he can't differentiate whether this is a Cayin HA-300MK2 problem or a general tube amplifier problem.  So we have to take that into consideration when we try to solve the problem.  

I want to bring one observation into the discussion.  The 300B (or DHT, Direct-Heated Triode tubes in general, including 2A3 and 845) are among the least user-friendly vacuum tubes on installation, they have a relatively large body but only have four pins, and they don't have a location pin to reinforce the seating.  If you look at the KT88 or the 6SN7 as a comparison, the eight-pin octal base with a large location pin offers a more secure connection relatively.  Unofficial observations also suggested that speaker-based users will move up the ladder gradually, they are unlike to buy a flagship model as their first tube amplifier, hence avoiding getting a DHT-based amplifier as their first tube amp.  Personal Audio users, on the other hand, have a higher tendency to buy the most expensive amplifier they can afford as their first tube amplifier, hence landing at the flagship DHT HA-300 as their first tube amp.  I am not trying to put the blame on the users when I bring up this observation, but this explained partially why Cayin, although having a long proven track record in building and supporting tube amplifiers, is surprised by the problems reported by new HA-300 users in Personal Audio sector.  We need to refresh our minds and expect the unexpected if we want to do better in this industry.

Secondly, we must put the User Guide into the correct perspective. 

In our opinion, User Guides are not meant to be a comprehensive manual to cover every technical explanation, operation detail, and exceptional conditions. If we are going to do that, we'll end up with a User Guide that is too long and too complicated that most users will read it, and then causing more problems in the long run.   

User Guide is never the best resource for exceptional conditions.  Your Cayin dealer should be your first point of contact when you run into exceptional conditions.  When your dealer can't resolve your problem, he or she should contact Cayin on your behalf to resolve the problem.  In case your dealer failed to provide the necessary after-sales support, you can contact Cayin directly, we have listed our contact information *HERE *on our website.  If you send an email to our Service department, telling them your problem and the difficulties you encountered when you try to work with your local Cayin dealer, Cayin Service team will come back to you promptly.  

Cayin representative such as myself is NOT a reliable source for global service support.  Our primary role is more marketing-orientated, so providing product information, encouraging exchanges, developing product and brand exposure, ... etc will have a higher priority over service support. In addition, there is no way I can cover the service support requests from all over the world, across multiple time zones, and cover all the Cayin products in HeadFi forum, from the HA-300MK2 flagship desktop amplifier to RU6 mobile dongle DAC (and roungly 20 products in between).  I'll become the bottleneck of the system almost immediately.  

So please work with your dealer immediately when your amplifier is not working as intended.  They are your first point of contact when you need support.


----------



## Andykong (Nov 25, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I am not really asking you a question about Wes's subjective impressions. I am really asking you a scientific question as to whether Cayin has experimented by changing the brands of 22de4 tubes and power supply fuses to determine whether it can significantly alter the sound quality output of the Cayin HA300MK2 headphone amplifier in a beneficial manner?
> 
> Jeff.



When you raise Wes impression in the beginning of your post, my answer will be related to Wes impression by other readers.  When you ask "If he already achieved a large level of sound quality improvement by replacing *all* of the stock tubes, how is it possible to still achieve yet more improvement by replacing the stock fuse in the power supply unit", how can I avoided getting into Wes opinion when I response to your question?

You probably don't mean it, but that's what I have to deal with when I am a brand rep. on a public forum.


----------



## jamato8

Andykong said:


> I wanted to ignore this question because I know the answer might be unpleasant to some users, but that's won't solve the problem.
> 
> Pashmeister raised a very good point.  When HA-300MK2 is the only tube amplifier that JeffMann has and will handle, he can't differentiate whether this is a Cayin HA-300MK2 problem or a general tube amplifier problem.  So we have to take that into consideration when we try to solve the problem.
> 
> ...


The dealer may be the 1st point of contact but they often have no more idea of how to really work out an issue than the user. They also have multiple brands and sometimes, sadly, have a limited knowledge base to reliably fix issues but yes, it is a starting point and some are very knowledgeable.


----------



## Andykong

jamato8 said:


> The dealer may be the 1st point of contact but they often have no more idea of how to really work out an issue than the user. They also have multiple brands and sometimes, sadly, have a limited knowledge base to reliably fix issues but yes, it is a starting point and some are very knowledgeable.



If they don't know the answer, they should get in touch with their Cayin contact.  

The fact that they are working in the same time zone and in the same language as their customers solved a lot of problems.  By the way, this is 3am in Hong Kong/China.


----------



## jamato8

Andykong said:


> When you raise Wes impression in the beginning of your post, my answer will be related to Wes impression by other readers.  When you ask "If he already achieved a large level of sound quality improvement by replacing *all* of the stock tubes, how is it possible to still achieve yet more improvement by replacing the stock fuse in the power supply unit", how can I avoided getting into Wes opinion when I response to your question?
> 
> You probably don't mean it, but that's what I have to deal with when I am a brand rep. on a public forum.


I do have a question. Some amplifiers, with output transformers are fine with no load and some will oscillate, which isn't good for them. Can the 300BMKII handle no load?


----------



## jamato8

Andykong said:


> If they don't know the answer, they should get in touch with their Cayin contact.
> 
> The fact that they are working in the same time zone and in the same language as their customers solved a lot of problems.  By the way, this is 3am in Hong Kong/China.


Ah, ok. I didn't know what time zone you were in. I used to live in Jishou City, Hunan Province. So yes, the time zone is very different. :^)


----------



## Skyediver

Andykong said:


> When you raise Wes impression in the beginning of your post, my answer will be related to Wes impression by other readers.  When you ask "If he already achieved a large level of sound quality improvement by replacing *all* of the stock tubes, how is it possible to still achieve yet more improvement by replacing the stock fuse in the power supply unit", how can I avoided getting into Wes opinion when I response to your question?
> 
> You probably don't mean it, but that's what I have to deal with when I am a brand rep. on a public forum.


@Andykong Fully get that, but as a consumer, I do also kinda understand and appreciate @JeffMann and where he's coming from with his question.  There's nuance here I think, and from that perspective I'm just as curious.  Cayin does indeed state in some of their marketing that the stock tubes were optimized and selected to provide the best "Cayin house sound" for the amp, so I'm kinda curious too about the evaluation process for other tubes, if there's any insight that can be shared. I think we all know that tube rolling involves a lot of personal preference decisions of course so that's the driver for @Wes S and the much appreciated level of detail and enthusiasm he's shared about what he's rolling and why, so I was wondering if Cayin considered these other tubes and it didn't give them their "house sound", didn't consider them at all, etc.  I'm just genuinely curious as I wait for deliver of my amp.


----------



## Andykong

jamato8 said:


> I do have a question. Some amplifiers, with output transformers are fine with no load and some will oscillate, which isn't good for them. Can the 300BMKII handle no load?



Not 100% sure about your question, but I can share my experience with HA-300.  Frequently when I set up all my demo gear in a show or event, I'll connect a headphone to the HA-300 (or MK2) to confirm everything is in good order.  Subsequently, in the middle of the shows, some users might unplug the headphone and bring it to the next system so that they can compare different amplifiers with the same headphone, and in some cases, they won't bring the headphone back to the HA-300 after their audition.  In other work, it happens quite often that I'll leave the HA-300 at playback condition but without a headphone connected for hours.  The HA-300 doesn't oscillate or run into malfunction because of that in my experience.


----------



## Andykong

jamato8 said:


> Ah, ok. I didn't know what time zone you were in. I used to live in Jishou City, Hunan Province. So yes, the time zone is very different. :^)



And we are theoretically on Sat morning already, which means if I run into any question that I need support from a Cayin Engineer, I need to wait till Monday.   Multiple time zone caused a lot of problems when I need to support users from Australia, UK/Continental Europe and USA, I am definitely a bottleneck if I didn't say No repeatedly.


----------



## steve468

JeffMann said:


> I have a question about soundstaging.
> 
> Wes wrote the following-: "_My amp is extremely quiet right now with the addition of the upgraded fuse and NOS tubes I have rolled, and it makes the listening so much more engaging.  Hearing all the detail and nuances in the recording *with sounds of instruments flying all around my head* and way outside the cups is highly addictive."_
> 
> ...


My subjective experience agrees with Wes. Specifically with HD800s, the Cayin creates such a holographic sound that it seems like sounds can come from behind my head. Certainly the soundstage feels well outside the cups. 

Unfortunately, I have to recommend Melz 1578 tubes in the 6sn7 slots to best get this effect (though I have not heard all tubes). I say unfortunately because, as has been noted a few times in this thread, supply of these particular tubes is pretty well dried up. It took me several months to find 2 single tubes at a fair price - never mind a matched pair.

Also, I think it was mentioned, but the recording can make a big difference. Classical tends to be recordings of actual stage setups, recorded to sound like you're sitting in the audience, as you said. Even then I find the Cayin does an incredible job of showing depth - listening to Mahler's 4th last night, Living Stereo's recording, and I could really tell when an instrument was in the back of the orchestra vs. the front. I think that's very cool.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 25, 2022)

Getting great sound with the 52 Sylvania 6SN7 tubes. Great dynamic, bass punch and very holographic. Good with hard hitting blues. And yes, I have a dusty room.

Sounding good with most any my phones.


----------



## dnd3241

jamato8 said:


> Getting great sound with the 52 Sylvania 6SN7 tubes. Great dynamic, bass punch and very holographic. Good with hard hitting blues. And yes, I have a dusty room.
> 
> Sounding good with most any my phones.


Sylvania Balwin 6SN7 GTB is the same with 52 Sylvania 6SN7 ?


----------



## jamato8

dnd3241 said:


> Sylvania Balwin 6SN7 GTB is the same with 52 Sylvania 6SN7 ?


No, those are totally different.


----------



## ARCXENOS

jamato8 said:


> Getting great sound with the 52 Sylvania 6SN7 tubes. Great dynamic, bass punch and very holographic. Good with hard hitting blues. And yes, I have a dusty room.
> 
> Sounding good with most any my phones.


Fellow dusty black mk2 friend!


----------



## Erwinatm (Nov 25, 2022)

Andykong said:


> I wanted to ignore this question because I know the answer might be unpleasant to some users, but that's won't solve the problem.
> 
> Pashmeister raised a very good point.  When HA-300MK2 is the only tube amplifier that JeffMann has and will handle, he can't differentiate whether this is a Cayin HA-300MK2 problem or a general tube amplifier problem.  So we have to take that into consideration when we try to solve the problem.
> 
> ...



Yes Andy, because now people can buy things from online store. From people they havent met before and only know the products from reading forums like this. Your job plays substantial role here. In 90s or early 2000s we have to go to the store and listened to the products, know the products, hear the salesman explains A to Z and ended up not buying it but choose other brand....hahaha. The good thing is, we build up relationship between seller and user. If something goes wrong, we easily return the products to that salesman and he will take care of your curiosity, wrong doing, malfunction etc etc. That time is almost over, now we write to forum and other users will help you. Sometimes you can have satisfying answers and mostly dont.... It is a new world.

Speaking of tubes amp I agree that we must have basic knowledge on handling tubes amp just like turntables, but alot easier.

For me, HA300 is still easy to maintain and operate. Autobias and relatively have smaller number of tubes.There are no major issues with this amp, IMO. 

I have a monoblock with 12 pcs KT90 tubes each channel, 2 pcs 6350, 1 pcs 12AT7, MANUAL Bias......😭. Imagine if 1 channel has cracking/humming sound? 😄😄😄

Cheers, Listen more and enjoy the music


----------



## dnd3241

jamato8 said:


> No, those are totally different.


That why the prices are 10 times different!


----------



## Wes S (Nov 26, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Good smoke. Always does the trick.


I concur.  I have a couple of killler strains right now, that are definitely doing the trick.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 26, 2022)

Rolled in a quad of Raytheon Japan Black Plate 22DE4's yesterday, and these tubes really pump up the dynamics.  I have found over the years that there is always something special with black plates and these Raytheon's definitely have that extra bit of spice.  I already had a pair of these and then I scored another pair the other day from this site to complete the quad - https://vacuumtubesinc.com/index.php/22de4.html

This is what they look like, and this particular one is a rebrand for ITT, but is actually made by Raytheon Japan.






I suggest keeping an eye out for this tube if you want to pump up the dynamics and bring the sound forward a bit, and this one is spicer than the Sylvania and G.E.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 26, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Getting great sound with the 52 Sylvania 6SN7 tubes. Great dynamic, bass punch and very holographic. Good with hard hitting blues. And yes, I have a dusty room.
> 
> Sounding good with most any my phones.


Those rectifiers sure do look cool!   I am really curious what brand they are, but still have yet to find any info on them.  Curious, do they have any sort of markings or acid etched codes anywhere on them?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 26, 2022)

Skyediver said:


> @Andykong Fully get that, but as a consumer, I do also kinda understand and appreciate @JeffMann and where he's coming from with his question.  There's nuance here I think, and from that perspective I'm just as curious.  Cayin does indeed state in some of their marketing that the stock tubes were optimized and selected to provide the best "Cayin house sound" for the amp, so I'm kinda curious too about the evaluation process for other tubes, if there's any insight that can be shared. I think we all know that tube rolling involves a lot of personal preference decisions of course so that's the driver for @Wes S and the much appreciated level of detail and enthusiasm he's shared about what he's rolling and why, so I was wondering if Cayin considered these other tubes and it didn't give them their "house sound", didn't consider them at all, etc.  I'm just genuinely curious as I wait for deliver of my amp.


It's pretty simple.  Companies use tubes they can easily get in large quantities (hence new production), and then they find the most affordable option that will get them closest to the sound they are looking for (hence the Gold Lions).  It's actually quite unique that Cayin included NOS tubes (RCA 22DE4) for the rectification, as most big companies only include New Production for all the tube types in an amp.  It's also pretty much a given, that most owners will roll tubes once they get the amp and find one's that better suit there preferences (a major reason people buy tube amps), and therefore it does not make since to put super rare and highend NOS tubes in the amp at the factory as they may not be everyone's cup of tea sonically and they also would make the cost of the amp rise considerably.  Reading through the marketing jargon. . .basically they put the cheapest and most affordable tubes they can get away with, and then leave the option of buying and rolling the expensive NOS tubes to the consumer.  That being said, the sound of the amp with the cheap stock tubes is not terrible by any means and could be all one would ever want or need forever, or they could serve a bass line for figuring out what you want to improve upon with "better" tubes.  Tube rolling NOS tubes is an art and finding/buying them takes lots of research, skill and dedication, but can also be so very rewarding.


----------



## Yggy

I thought I’d try upgrading my HA-300 MK1 power socket fuse. The SR Purple is £190 in the UK and the Audio Magic M-1 is about £300 imported so I went with an SR Black for £60.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 26, 2022)

Andykong said:


> I wanted to ignore this question because I know the answer might be unpleasant to some users, but that's won't solve the problem.
> 
> Pashmeister raised a very good point.  When HA-300MK2 is the only tube amplifier that JeffMann has and will handle, he can't differentiate whether this is a Cayin HA-300MK2 problem or a general tube amplifier problem.  So we have to take that into consideration when we try to solve the problem.
> 
> ...


Interesting times in this hobby right now, as it seems many new people are getting into headphones lately.  I worked my way up to this endgame amp and cut my teeth with much more affordable tube amps learning about tubes along the way, and I have to say the activity in this thread is quite strange and not at all what I expected it to be like for a TOTL tube amp.  Jumping straight to the top without have a freaking clue is not the way I do things, but apparently with all the recent post in this thread it seems many do.   There is a ton of info out there on learning about tubes and tube amps, and I think people should really do their homework before jumping into tubes and especially an "Endgame" 300B amp with 8 tubes.

You are doing an amazing job being patient and answering all these novice questions, and Cayin has done an outstanding job creating such an amazing 300B amp for a really good price.  Personally, I don't think Cayin could have done it any better, and I wouldn't change a single thing about it.

Thanks for being professional and staying so connected (answering questions at 3am) and for all the info you provide!  It's really nice knowing we have someone as knowledgeable as you following along.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 26, 2022)

Yggy said:


> I thought I’d try upgrading my HA-300 MK1 power socket fuse. The SR Purple is £190 in the UK and the Audio Magic M-1 is about £300 imported so I went with an SR Black for £60.


Nice, that should give you a little taste of what the big boys (Purple & M1) can do.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 26, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I have a question about soundstaging.
> 
> Wes wrote the following-: "_My amp is extremely quiet right now with the addition of the upgraded fuse and NOS tubes I have rolled, and it makes the listening so much more engaging.  Hearing all the detail and nuances in the recording *with sounds of instruments flying all around my head* and way outside the cups is highly addictive."_
> 
> ...


Let me elaborate a bit on this, some tubes are more forward than others and accentuate different parts of the soundstage.  For instance, some tubes are so foward it sounds as if I am the one doing the singing with the instruments surrounding me and usually with the drums behind me.  Then there are some that are the opposite throwing the singer and instruments further away from me, having a more out in front kind of sound.  Then some throw the stage wider left to right, and some can throw the stage taller as well. . . The trick is finding a tube combo that accentuates all the qualities you value most, and that's why we tube roll.  The power and driver tubes have the biggest effect on the staging, followed by the rectifiers for fine tuning.  Staging also depends on you DAC, headphones and the rest of the gear being used, as some headphone's, DAC's, etc. . have a more out in front presentation vs. some having a more forward/intimate kind of sound.  Lastly, when I talk about sounds of instruments flying around my head, I am listening to some heavily produced Electronica, and I am very thankful for this unique and highly immersive experience.

Don't you have a good stash of 22DE4?  Why not roll a few and see if you notice a difference for yourself? As for the fuse you are doubting as well . . .Synergistic Research offers a 30 day no questions asked return policy, so what's to loose?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 26, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> That is what I previously thought, but Wes is seemingly asserting that with the Elrog 300B tubes in place that *all* the 6sn7 tubes (that he tried) sound amazing.
> 
> Jeff.


. . .and I stand by that statement 100%, and although they all sound amazing . . . some 6SN7's still sound better for my preferences.  My point was that the ER300B are fantastic sounding with great drive and balance top to bottom, of which works extremely well with any 6SN7.

I can't help but feel like I am constantly being called out by you, and honestly it's getting old.  I am sharing what I hear, and I am not new to this.  It seems like you think I am just pulling stuff out of my ass and doubt every post I make.  Let me tell you this, I have put in the time and done my homework and have gotten help from many along the way and I am just trying to pay it forward by sharing my findings and spur other's to do the same.

There are so many variables when dealing with tubes and especially 3 different tube types, and some (* even within the same tube type) have a greater effect on changing the sound than others.  That being said, rolling power tubes and driver tubes can both have an equal effect on the sound depending on which ones you try.  Those who say otherwise have not rolled enough tubes.


----------



## Andykong

Skyediver said:


> @Andykong Fully get that, but as a consumer, I do also kinda understand and appreciate @JeffMann and where he's coming from with his question.  There's nuance here I think, and from that perspective I'm just as curious.  Cayin does indeed state in some of their marketing that the stock tubes were optimized and selected to provide the best "Cayin house sound" for the amp, so I'm kinda curious too about the evaluation process for other tubes, if there's any insight that can be shared. I think we all know that tube rolling involves a lot of personal preference decisions of course so that's the driver for @Wes S and the much appreciated level of detail and enthusiasm he's shared about what he's rolling and why, so I was wondering if Cayin considered these other tubes and it didn't give them their "house sound", didn't consider them at all, etc.  I'm just genuinely curious as I wait for deliver of my amp.



As a manufacturer, Cayin can only consider current production vacuum tubes, so when we stated that we selected those tubes to provide the best Cayin house sound, the selection process refers to steadily available current production vacuum tubes only.  If we adopt a NOS tube as a stock tube, it must be available in very large quantities and at a fairly low cost (like the RCA 22DE4).  None of those NOS or vintage tubes mentioned in the tube rolling post are feasible from a manufacturing perspective.  Some of them might actually be a better choice for "Cayin house sound", but they are not a candidate to start with.


----------



## Andykong

Wes S said:


> It's pretty simple.  Companies use tubes they can easily get in large quantities (hence new production), and then they find the most affordable option that will get them closest to the sound they are looking for (hence the Gold Lions).  It's actually quite unique that Cayin included NOS tubes (RCA 22DE4) for the rectification, as most big companies only include New Production for all the tube types in an amp.  It's also pretty much a given, that most owners will roll tubes once they get the amp and find one's that better suit there preferences (a major reason people buy tube amps), and therefore it does not make since to put super rare and highend NOS tubes in the amp at the factory as they may not be everyone's cup of tea sonically and they also would make the cost of the amp rise considerably.  Reading through the marketing jargon. . .basically they put the cheapest and most affordable tubes they can get away with, and then leave the option of buying and rolling the expensive NOS tubes to the consumer.  That being said, the sound of the amp with the cheap stock tubes is not terrible by any means and could be all one would ever want or need forever, or they could serve a bass line for figuring out what you want to improve upon with "better" tubes.  Tube rolling NOS tubes is an art and finding/buying them takes lots of research, skill and dedication, but can also be so very rewarding.



On top of production budget considerations, we must also consider the stability of the product in the long run.  Assuming the HA-300MK2 will stay in production for 5 years, Cayin should produce the HA-300MK2 with the same audio performance and sound signature during these 5 years.  Can we do that if we opt for a NOS or vintage 6SN7?  

Users probably don't aware of the troubles we need to go through when we change a stock tube of a current production amplifier like HA-300.  In fact, we changed our stock 300B tubes once back in October 2018 (*HERE*).  We need to go through the ISO9001 process internally, offer special support to our dealers all over to world to update their stock-on-hand to the new specification, conduct a new photo shot, send new photos to dealers and websites, and provide all the necessary support to update their website photo, .....  At the end of the day, after we conduct all these changes activities, we still receive a lot of user inquiries or even complaints from customers because the amplifier they received "looks different" to the reviews they read, which was published before we changed the 300B tube.  They want our assurance that the new tubes will sound the same as the old ones and that the reviews they read as still valid because they make their decision based on that reviews.  So trust me, if you were in our position, you'll also stick with the current production tubes only because you don't want to change the 6SN7 or 300B vacuum tube frequently during the production duration of the amplifier.


----------



## Yggy

Wes S said:


> Nice, that should give you a little taste of what the big boys (Purple & M1) can do.


I hope so. If I can hear something that’s better and not just different I’ll think about getting an SR Purple or Audio Magic M-1. I’ve been watching this video on YouTube about fuses. 



I upgraded my HA-300 MK1’s coupling capacitors from stock Mundorfs to VCap CuTFs. 

Post in thread 'Cayin HA-300MK2 (2022) TOTL Transformer coupled Direct Heated Triode Tube HeadAmp (Page 91)'
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...ode-tube-headamp-page-91.872093/post-16915393


----------



## Wes S

Andykong said:


> On top of production budget considerations, we must also consider the stability of the product in the long run.  Assuming the HA-300MK2 will stay in production for 5 years, Cayin should produce the HA-300MK2 with the same audio performance and sound signature during these 5 years.  Can we do that if we opt for a NOS or vintage 6SN7?
> 
> Users probably don't aware of the troubles we need to go through when we change a stock tube of a current production amplifier like HA-300.  In fact, we changed our stock 300B tubes once back in October 2018 (*HERE*).  We need to go through the ISO9001 process internally, offer special support to our dealers all over to world to update their stock-on-hand to the new specification, conduct a new photo shot, send new photos to dealers and websites, and provide all the necessary support to update their website photo, .....  At the end of the day, after we conduct all these changes activities, we still receive a lot of user inquiries or even complaints from customers because the amplifier they received "looks different" to the reviews they read, which was published before we changed the 300B tube.  They want our assurance that the new tubes will sound the same as the old ones and that the reviews they read as still valid because they make their decision based on that reviews.  So trust me, if you were in our position, you'll also stick with the current production tubes only because you don't want to change the 6SN7 or 300B vacuum tube frequently during the production duration of the amplifier.


Wow!  The stuff you guys have to go through is crazy and yeah I would definitely stick with the current production tubes if I was in your shoes.


----------



## jamato8

Wes S said:


> Those rectifiers sure do look cool!   I am really curious what brand they are, but still have yet to find any info on them.  Curious, do they have any sort of markings or acid etched codes anywhere on them?


Nothing, no etching but it seems the only manufacture to use the glass spacers was Westinghouse, while they were still producing tubes. Most likely they were produced for another company or just bulk tube, most likely bulk, and made in the 1960's or later 50s by Westinghouse. 

The nice thing about the Japanese tubes is they worked very hard on making good tubes and used a very hard vacuum, which tends to allow them to last longer and they sound a little different.


----------



## Skyediver

Wes S said:


> It's pretty simple.  Companies use tubes they can easily get in large quantities (hence new production), and then they find the most affordable option that will get them closest to the sound they are looking for (hence the Gold Lions).  It's actually quite unique that Cayin included NOS tubes (RCA 22DE4) for the rectification, as most big companies only include New Production for all the tube types in an amp.  It's also pretty much a given, that most owners will roll tubes once they get the amp and find one's that better suit there preferences (a major reason people buy tube amps), and therefore it does not make since to put super rare and highend NOS tubes in the amp at the factory as they may not be everyone's cup of tea sonically and they also would make the cost of the amp rise considerably.  Reading through the marketing jargon. . .basically they put the cheapest and most affordable tubes they can get away with, and then leave the option of buying and rolling the expensive NOS tubes to the consumer.  That being said, the sound of the amp with the cheap stock tubes is not terrible by any means and could be all one would ever want or need forever, or they could serve a bass line for figuring out what you want to improve upon with "better" tubes.  Tube rolling NOS tubes is an art and finding/buying them takes lots of research, skill and dedication, but can also be so very rewarding.


Thanks @Wes S for explaining how this niche segment of the industry works, much appreciated.  I expected this was the case, but you don’t know unless you ask and I don’t want to make assumptions, after deciding to go “all in” on the tube experience again after purchasing this amp. The NOS rolling reminds me of when I had a Glenn OTL amp; the rolling options on that amp are/were insane.  Have pleasant and horrible memories of that rabbit hole, in equal measure!

BTW, also appreciate your willingness to share both your tube rolling experiences as well as some general guidance of where you purchase.  It helps a lot indeed!


----------



## Skyediver

Andykong said:


> As a manufacturer, Cayin can only consider current production vacuum tubes, so when we stated that we selected those tubes to provide the best Cayin house sound, the selection process refers to steadily available current production vacuum tubes only.  If we adopt a NOS tube as a stock tube, it must be available in very large quantities and at a fairly low cost (like the RCA 22DE4).  None of those NOS or vintage tubes mentioned in the tube rolling post are feasible from a manufacturing perspective.  Some of them might actually be a better choice for "Cayin house sound", but they are not a candidate to start with.


Thanks @Andykong for taking time to respond.  And that indeed makes sense.  As I mentioned in another response around this, it does mean a lot when a company (or company rep) is willing to engage with customers.  It‘s an investment to purchase such amps (and consider tube rolling), and developing full understanding of the equipment and everything that goes into maximizing it for what is ultimately a niche segment of the hobby, it all helps to feel “vindicated” if you will for the investment.  Not to mention the fun that should be part of the experience.   Anyway, thanks again.


----------



## Roybenz

Im waiting for my ha300b mk2. Never had tubes before. Coming from Moon 430had, ny Headphone is susvara. Any QuickStart guide for a tube-noob?  

Impedance setting M ?


----------



## jamato8

Roybenz said:


> Im waiting for my ha300b mk2. Never had tubes before. Coming from Moon 430had, ny Headphone is susvara. Any QuickStart guide for a tube-noob?
> 
> Impedance setting M ?


Get a back brace. Plug it in. M is a good place to start. :^)

Oh, and make sure the 300B tubes are seated. You could even pull one out, then push it back into the socket. You will notice that there are two sizes of pins on the 300B that will match the socket. Enjoy!


----------



## Alenotta

I really appreciate the info from headfi users. It’s a very fun and supportive community. I’ve always loved headphones but started getting more and more into the hobby as Covid trapped me in my home office. It’s been highly entertaining/frustrating experimenting with gear and chain upgrades. 

Just got a pair of cheaper Ken Rad black glass 6sn7s from eBay. They sound really natural. I also really have been enjoying some RCA coin base ones. Tried some old GEs but they sounded a bit odd in the mids. All of them probably need more break in / warm up time. Also ordered a mystery grab bag of rectifier tubes from that site that was recommended. One day I’ll try the Elrog 300b, but I have to let my funding recuperate for a while before justifying that to myself. The Gold Lions have a nice punch and weight. I thought the Gold Lion 6922 variety was the best new tube I had heard in my Liquid Platinum. I always find myself saying I don’t know how it can get much better than this…and then you figure out the next rung on the ladder to madness. 

Anyway, headphone nuts of all varieties, knowledge levels, expendable income and insanity - you’re appreciated.  Hope everyone is having fun listening this holiday weekend.


----------



## msq123

Wes S said:


> I hate how expensive they are, but I would go for the Elrog's first.  They are super high quality tubes, that are quiet and made to last, and what they do for the amp sonically is stunning.  I would roll the rectifiers last, as they have the least amount of impact and are more for fine tuning.


I have taken your advice and Elrogs are in post, should be arriving end of next week .   I also grabbed few 22DE4 rectifiers (GE and some assorted) from the link someone posted few days ago, cheap as chips so not sure what I am going to get.

I was going to wait to roll 6SN7 but now I am in the flow so why not start now.   I think I will need to try few before I lock what I like but would appreciate some feedback if you have any experience with these and if you have a view how's the synergy going to be with Elrog?

5692 RCA redbase premium industrial 6SN7GT
VT-231 JAN Ken Rad, blackplates, blackglass and some clearglass
VT-231 JAN RCA military 6SN7GT blackplate greyglass
VT-231 JAN Raytheon military 6SN7GT


Cheers


----------



## Erwinatm

Roybenz said:


> Im waiting for my ha300b mk2. Never had tubes before. Coming from Moon 430had, ny Headphone is susvara. Any QuickStart guide for a tube-noob?
> 
> Impedance setting M ?


Good choice..will be perfect match with susvara.

Impedance M / H  will be fine, depends on your taste.


----------



## Roybenz

Elrog 300b and MELZ 1578 ? Should i just find these right away? How do they alter the sound of stock tubes?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 27, 2022)

Roybenz said:


> Elrog 300b and MELZ 1578 ? Should i just find these right away? How do they alter the sound of stock tubes?


I would definitely start with those, only thing is the Melz 1578 has been hunted to extinction.    As for the Elrog's, their sound has been described numerous times in this thread, and I suggest using the search function.


----------



## Skyediver

Finally received delivery of my new amp.  So excited to finally, officially join the club!  Honestly wasn’t blown away initially or reminded of what I heard from this amp at CanJam, but I’m being patient as I’m still burning in my Holo May too.  Also ordered the popularly discussed Elrogs, so looking forward to tube rolling adventures down the line in due time.




  On the aesthetics front, not going to lie, I’m giddy.  Just love the tube glow while lights are off and your just enjoying the music/vibe.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 27, 2022)

Skyediver said:


> Finally received delivery of my new amp.  So excited to finally, officially join the club!  Honestly wasn’t blown away initially or reminded of what I heard from this amp at CanJam, but I’m being patient as I’m still burning in my Holo May too.  Also ordered the popularly discussed Elrogs, so looking forward to tube rolling adventures down the line in due time.
> 
> On the aesthetics front, not going to lie, I’m giddy.  Just love the tube glow while lights are off and your just enjoying the music/vibe.


Heck yeah!  Welcome to the club.  Coming from the Pendant myself, the HA300mk2 is a very nice step up.   I actually had the same first reaction as you, and a little burn-in definitely helps, and then once you get those Elrog's it's pure magic.  

The amp fits perfect on your rack and looks killer.  Got to love that tube glow and bouncing VU meters.

Happy Listening!


----------



## krude

Anyone running HA300 MK2 with ~6v output DAC via XLR? (May, Dave etc.) Any issues with signal clipping with this kinda voltage? Asking cause a lot of tube amps start distorting above the typical ~4v.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 27, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Nothing, no etching but it seems the only manufacture to use the glass spacers was Westinghouse, while they were still producing tubes. Most likely they were produced for another company or just bulk tube, most likely bulk, and made in the 1960's or later 50s by Westinghouse.
> 
> The nice thing about the Japanese tubes is they worked very hard on making good tubes and used a very hard vacuum, which tends to allow them to last longer and they sound a little different.


Thanks for the info!  I have noticed the same thing with my made in Japan Raytheon's and they have much better construction and build quality compared to my US made 22DE4's.  I also have noticed that my Westinghouse Japan look exactly like my Raytheon Japan, and I imagine one of those companies made tubes for the other, and not quite sure which one but I have a hunch it was Raytheon with the tubes I have.  I am actually enjoying rolling the 22DE4's the most with this amp as I already have my power and driver tubes dialed in, and you can really get some different sounds just with the rectifier's and especially once you blend pairs.


----------



## Wes S

krude said:


> Anyone running HA300 MK2 with ~6v output DAC via XLR? (May, Dave etc.) Any issues with signal clipping with this kinda voltage? Asking cause a lot of tube amps start distorting above the typical ~4v.


Zach of ZMF talked about this in his video of the HA300mk2, and he said it handles 6v just fine and I believe he actually preferred it this way with most of his headphone collection.  I know there are several other's who are doing the same thing without issue and I am sure they will chime in.  This amp is a very versatile beast!


----------



## ARCXENOS

krude said:


> Anyone running HA300 MK2 with ~6v output DAC via XLR? (May, Dave etc.) Any issues with signal clipping with this kinda voltage? Asking cause a lot of tube amps start distorting above the typical ~4v.


no issues at all.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Skyediver said:


> Finally received delivery of my new amp.  So excited to finally, officially join the club!  Honestly wasn’t blown away initially or reminded of what I heard from this amp at CanJam, but I’m being patient as I’m still burning in my Holo May too.  Also ordered the popularly discussed Elrogs, so looking forward to tube rolling adventures down the line in due time.
> 
> On the aesthetics front, not going to lie, I’m giddy.  Just love the tube glow while lights are off and your just enjoying the music/vibe.


Since you are using the cage on the first picture.
The cage won't fit when Elrogs are inserted, just a headsup in case this is important to you


----------



## Skyediver

ThanatosVI said:


> Since you are using the cage on the first picture.
> The cage won't fit when Elrogs are inserted, just a headsup in case this is important to you


Yeah, not important.  I think “cage-less” looks sexier 😎


----------



## ARCXENOS

Skyediver said:


> Yeah, not important.  I think “cage-less” looks sexier 😎





Stay free, brudda


----------



## ThanatosVI

ARCXENOS said:


> Stay free, brudda


I read that in Mimirs voice... too much God of War I guess.


----------



## mfgillia

Skyediver said:


> Yeah, not important.  I think “cage-less” looks sexier 😎


Many of us are still using the cage with Elrogs either with custom standoffs or simply using banana plugs, which appears to work just as well.


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 27, 2022)

Don't like cages. Never use them with tubes. If a problem with cats, they will learn real fast.

I see the price on eBay for the 22DE4 has gone way up. They are really taking advantage of this. The tubes in quantity were selling for around 50 cents and often dumped because they sat on shelves for years with no apparent use. Profit mongers.

I used the MK2 with balanced input, as I do with the LTA Z10e but I don't care for the sound. For some reason it is a little thinner sounding and less body to the sound. The balanced out comes from the output transformer anyway.

My favorite headphones right now with the MK2, the ES R10. Over any of my open headphones.They capture some of the R10 magic but are a little more robust in sound, an interesting and musical mix. The SR2 iBasso do excellent as do the Focal Utopia.


----------



## shafat777

I have set of 4 (2 coin base, 2 fat/thick base) GE 22de4 tubes that i can sell if anyone is interested.


----------



## jonathan c

jamato8 said:


> I see the price on eBay for the 22DE4 has gone way up. They are really taking advantage of this. The tubes in quantity were selling for around 50 cents and often dumped because they sat on shelves for years with no apparent use. Profit mongers.


Given the intended use - per the Tube Data Sheet - of the 22DE4, is power supply rectification in the HA-300 MK II the best (or appropriate) use of the 22DE4?…🤔🤷🏻‍♂️…


----------



## jamato8 (Nov 27, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> Given the intended use - per the Tube Data Sheet - of the 22DE4, is power supply rectification in the HA-300 MK II the best (or appropriate) use of the 22DE4?…🤔🤷🏻‍♂️…I



It is fine. Handles current very well. The issue to implementation in the recent past was one, it is a half wave rectifier vs a full wave rectifier and filaments run at, for hifi, an unconventional 22.4 volts vs 6.3. The latter is no big thing, you just build the transformer with a winding that handles the current draw and puts out 22.4 volts for the 22DE4. The half wave, uses only half of the AC wave. But whatever floats the boat and Cayin has done a good job with the implementation with two 22DE4 per side and you good dual power supplies, one for right and one for left, which is very good for performance. Just too bad many 1000s were put to their early rest in the dumps. But now there is a use, though a niche market and sadly, the price will keep going out as those who have them will try to get more and more for them. That is how tubes go. I used to buy really nice 5751 tubes for 5 dollars, no one wanted them. Then they got popular. That is the market though, and market determines price.


----------



## jonathan c

Thank you for the succinct e/e lesson.


----------



## JeffMann

I have a question about Cayin's power supply to the 300B tubes.

I asked a question in the "Headphone Tube Amps - The hunt for all 300B tube amps" thread about the expected lifespan of the Elrog ER300B tubes - and Thomas Mayer responded in post #1596.  

He wrote-: "_Unfortunately there are quite a lot of amplifiers on the market which stress the tubes to squeeze out the maximum power. We have also seen many amps without any limiting of the filament current. Filaments are almost a short when cold and if the power supply does not limit the current there can be 10A current peaks at turn on which weaken the filaments over time and cause them to break. Also the type of filament supply is important. We have seen filament supplies which tend to overheat the tubes (especially current source supplies). Also underheating shortens lifetime. Some amp manufacturers think undercoating extends lifetime but that is not true. The emission will drop in that case since not enough thorium is replenished to the filament surface when not heated properly. Fortunately if this happens life can be fully restored by operating the tube normally for a few hours.

Not to be neglected is the usage pattern: Frequent on/off cycles during a day are not healthy for the tube.
Also much care is to be observed when changing tubes. The filaments get very brittle after a few hundred hours of usage and can easily break when exposed to mechanical shocks. This is also the main reason why we only grant warranty to the first buyer. Simply because most people do not pack the tubes careful enough when shipping them which can cause the filaments to break. When shipping tubes a minimum of 2-3 of padding by bubble wrap or similar is needed around the original tube box for safe shipping_."

He states that an amp should limit the current to the filaments on turn-on and that the filament supply should not overheat the filament. Does the Cayin HA300MK2 amp do that?

Jeff.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

JeffMann said:


> I have a question about Cayin's power supply to the 300B tubes.
> 
> I asked a question in the "Headphone Tube Amps - The hunt for all 300B tube amps" thread about the expected lifespan of the Elrog ER300B tubes - and Thomas Mayer responded in post #1596.
> 
> ...


Does the amp take 15-30 seconds to "warm up" before it "clicks on"?


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I have a question about Cayin's power supply to the 300B tubes.
> 
> I asked a question in the "Headphone Tube Amps - The hunt for all 300B tube amps" thread about the expected lifespan of the Elrog ER300B tubes - and Thomas Mayer responded in post #1596.
> 
> ...


The Cayin rep will need to answer some of your questions but in my experience of many, many years of use of many tube products, filament failure is pretty rare. 

It is nice to have slow turn on, meaning the filaments come on slowly, And regarding under voltage, over time that causes cathode poisoning, which is not reversed. A resistance builds where the coating (cathode) makes contact and that is that. 

The Elrog is rated at 600 volts, much higher than the standard 300B tube. Seems with everything else running as it should, the Elrog should last a very long time.


----------



## jamato8

ColSaulTigh said:


> Does the amp take 15-30 seconds to "warm up" before it "clicks on"?


1 minute. It ramps up before hitting the plates.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jamato8 said:


> 1 minute. It ramps up before hitting the plates.


There's your answer.

The Elrogs should last you thousands (maybe 10,000+) hours with normal use.


----------



## Skyediver

shafat777 said:


> I have set of 4 (2 coin base, 2 fat/thick base) GE 22de4 tubes that i can sell if anyone is interested.


I’d be interested.  Will PM.


----------



## JeffMann

ColSaulTigh said:


> There's your answer.
> 
> The Elrogs should last you thousands (maybe 10,000+) hours with normal use.


I thought that the 1 minute delay was to prevent sound distortions (eg. pops) getting to the headphones during start-up. Does it also mean that the current to the filament is reduced during the start-up time period?

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I thought that the 1 minute delay was to prevent sound distortions (eg. pops) getting to the headphones during start-up. Does it also mean that the current to the filament is reduced during the start-up time period?
> 
> Jeff.


The rep can state what it is for then. Often a delay can be to wait for the tubes. I didn't read the manual completely, which should state this specific purpose. Also something was mentioned about current on the filaments, it is the voltage that needs to be within the acceptable range. Current draw will then be determined by the filament.


----------



## JeffMann

I have another generic question about 300B tube life.

Does 300B tube life depend on whether music is being played? For example, let's presume that I turn on my Cayin HA300BMk2 headphone amplifier at 3pm everyday and then turn it off at 1am. That would represent 10 hours of use per day, and roughly 3,500 hours per year. However, I may only be listening to music for 4 out of those 10 hours, which works out to roughly 1,400 hours per year. Which is the most relevant figure in terms of estimated 300B tube life?

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I have another generic question about 300B tube life.
> 
> Does 300B tube life depend on whether music is being played? For example, let's presume that I turn on my Cayin HA300BMk2 headphone amplifier at 3pm everyday and then turn it off at 1am. That would represent 10 hours of use per day, and roughly 3,500 hours per year. However, I may only be listening to music for 4 out of those 10 hours, which works out to roughly 1,400 hours per year. Which is the most relevant figure in terms of estimated 300B tube life?
> 
> Jeff.


So basically the tube would be idle for the hours not used. An idle tube will normally last longer. But 300B tubes are known for a very long life.


----------



## Wes S

It's been said before and I will say it again. . .the mids are flat out magical with this amp! 

Rolled back in my quad of Sicte 22DE4's this morning, and as much as I love the G.E., Raytheon and Sylvania, the Sicte have just a bit more magic and seem to combine the best traits of them all with a little extra on top and down low.  I have never heard such an immersive and cohesive sound, and I just can't get enough.  Every track is a journey, and I can really get a sense of the emotion of the artist.  Sad songs are extremely sad, and happy songs are extremely happy, and the amp really lets each track do it's thing.  This amp has speed, power, detail and finesse all balanced to perfection for my taste, and then throw the insane holographic and expansive staging into the mix and it's as immersive as it gets.


----------



## jamato8

I have the Elrog in now. Waiting for them to burn in some, or something to happen. :^) 

Quieter than the stock tubes, the amp is very quiet but the transparency has to kick in and some dynamics.


----------



## Sound Eq

greetings, do I have to do tube rolling to get a full bodied sound with great bass with susvara


----------



## jamato8

Sound Eq said:


> greetings, do I have to do tube rolling to get a full bodied sound with great bass with susvara


I think the amp does fine as is. But hours of play time are needed for everything to settle, burn in. IMO


----------



## Skyediver

Sound Eq said:


> greetings, do I have to do tube rolling to get a full bodied sound with great bass with susvara


I don’t think you “have” to do tube rolling.  I just got my amp days ago, and it’s already sounding good, and better than when I first unpacked it.  But while you may not need to do it, it’s certainly part of the fun in owning tube amps, for sure.

Ultimately like so much about this hobby, whether you’d be happy with the stock tubes or not, only you and your ears/brain can really answer that.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Sound Eq said:


> greetings, do I have to do tube rolling to get a full bodied sound with great bass with susvara


IMO, yes stock has good bass and tonality already, but if you do not want to tube roll at all, I think getting a powerful solid state might be better...personally I think half the point of getting a tube amp is to enjoy the different experiences from different tubes

That said, I am eyeing the holo bliss too


----------



## Andykong (Nov 28, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I thought that the 1 minute delay was to prevent sound distortions (eg. pops) getting to the headphones during start-up. Does it also mean that the current to the filament is reduced during the start-up time period?
> 
> Jeff.



The 1-minute delay is a protection feature in all our tube headphone amplifiers.   On top of protecting the amplifier to start up in a safe and optimized condition, it will also enhance the experience of our users.  

When you power up a high-power tube amplifier, it takes time to heat up the filament of the vacuum tube to the "desirable" temperature.  If we disable the start-up delay, you'll hear a lot of distortion and music presented at the wrong pace. This is not unique to HA-300, any temperature-sensitive amplifiers need to include similar protection features, including some of the high-power class A speaker amplifiers.


----------



## jamato8

Andykong said:


> The 1-minute delay is a protection feature in all our tube headphone amplifiers.   On top of protecting the amplifier to start up in a safe and optimized condition, it will also enhance the experience of our users.
> 
> When you power up a high-power tube amplifier, it takes time to heat up the filament of the vacuum tube to the "desirable" temperature.  If we disable the start-up delay, you'll hear a lot of distortion and music presented at the wrong pace. This is not unique to HA-300, any temperature-sensitive amplifiers need to include similar protection features, including some of the high-power class A speaker amplifiers.


That is why I always turned my preamp down when turning on the speaker amps. No mute and it is a good practice anyway.


----------



## Roybenz

jamato8 said:


> I think the amp does fine as is. But hours of play time are needed for everything to settle, burn in. IMO


How many hours of burn in does it need? Just leave it on or Music must be playing also?


----------



## Wes S

Roybenz said:


> How many hours of burn in does it need? Just leave it on or Music must be playing also?


Mine took around 100 hours with music playing, to really quiet down and open up.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 29, 2022)

So, I just had a major revelation this morning with my HA300mk2!   I have been battling a bit with some intermittent noise no matter what tubes I am using with my VC's, and I have been trying to convince myself it sounds so freaking good that I could live with that little bit of intermittent noise.  However, on a whim I finally tried the 4.4mm output, and holy crap the amp is dead silent as in SS kind of silent with my VC's, and it still sounds fantastic.  This amp is so versatile it's nuts, with 3 different outputs and then 3 different impendance settings on top of that, I think anyone could dial in this amp with any headphone no matter the sensitivity.  I really think Cayin has accomplished something special with this amp, being that it has 300B's and can drive the power hungry Susvara as well as super sensitive headphones and iems.

The versatility of this amp is freaking awesome!


----------



## Yggy

Wes, what other amps have you heard Susvaras on? Most headphone amps under power the Susvara to a greater or lesser degree. Susvaras scale with more power way beyond what the HA-300 is capable of. I’ve not heard any amp make the Susvara sound more beautiful than the HA-300 but the combo doesn’t do rock, hip hop, metal or EDM to the level the Susvara is capable of. For bass-lite pop, vocals, and acoustic the HA-300 and Susvara combination is superb.


----------



## Wes S

Yggy said:


> Wes, what other amps have you heard Susvaras on? Most headphone amps under power the Susvara to a greater or lesser degree. Susvaras scale with more power way beyond what the HA-300 is capable of. I’ve not heard any amp make the Susvara sound more beautiful than the HA-300 but the combo doesn’t do rock, hip hop, metal or EDM to the level the Susvara is capable of. For bass-lite pop, vocals, and acoustic the HA-300 and Susvara combination is superb.


I have not heard the Susvara, and I was just going off what other's have said in this thread and the fact that headphone was used to tune this amp.  That was just a general statement, and I am sure there are some SS amps that could rock the Susvara even more.


----------



## Yggy

If you’re hearing noise through XLR and no noise through 4.4mm you presumably have a problem with your XLR output or cable? XLR is a sturdier connection than 4.4mm but all other things being equal they should sound the same?


----------



## Wes S (Nov 29, 2022)

Yggy said:


> If you’re hearing noise through XLR and no noise through 4.4mm you presumably have a problem with your XLR output or cable? XLR is a sturdier connection than 4.4mm but all other things being equal they should sound the same?


I am using the same cable with an adapter, and the noise is related to power not my cable.  The 4.4mm is level matched and optimized for iems and sensitive headphones and the XLR is"full fletched", and they don't sound the same to me.  Let me be clear, the noise is very minimal with both outputs and is definitely a bit quieter  out of the 4.4mm, but it's not really an issue at all and I am just being OCD.


----------



## Yggy

I think at a certain level sound is just different rather than better. Reviewers rave about the Enleum 23R with the Susvara and it’s amazing but the tone isn’t as natural as with the HA-300.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 29, 2022)

Just switched back to the XLR output, and as good as the 4.4mm sounds, the XLR just has some extra magic going on and is where I will be staying.  It's nice to know the 4.4mm output is quiet and will work with iems, but it just lacks a bit magic with my ZMF's.  I can't quit put it into words, but the second I switched back to the XLR output I immediately became much more engaged and this is the sound that made me fall in love with this amp.  The staging, speed and nuance is on another level coming out of the "full fletched" XLR output, and the 4.4mm sounds more reserved and artificial.


----------



## Erwinatm

jamato8 said:


> That is why I always turned my preamp down when turning on the speaker amps. No mute and it is a good practice anyway.



When you turn on your system, always try to do this sequence, Source - Pre - Power. 
Turning off Power - Pre - Source.

If you have tube preamp wait 1- 2 mins until it settled then turn on power amp.

If you have a tube power amp that has 2 switches,  first turn on main switch wait for 1-2 mins that turn on the high voltage switch.

My 2 cents. Cheers


----------



## jamato8

Wes S said:


> Just switched back to the XLR output, and as good as the 4.4mm sounds, the XLR just has some extra magic going on and is where I will be staying.  It's nice to know the 4.4mm output is quiet and will work with iems, but it just lacks a bit magic with my ZMF's.  I can't quit put it into words, but the second I switched back to the XLR output I immediately became much more engaged and this is the sound that made me fall in love with this amp.  The staging, speed and nuance is on another level coming out of the "full fletched" XLR output, and the 4.4mm sounds more reserved and artificial.


I tried the 4.4 shortly after getting the amp. I don't like it. It diminishes the sound. I use the 3.5 but mostly the standard XLR. I would prefer the 4.4 to be the same output source, so resistors etc., as the XLR. 

Elrog burning in. Very fast and hard hitting bass. And very quiet.


----------



## EagleKent

Roybenz said:


> How many hours of burn in does it need? Just leave it on or Music must be playing also?


You can try the 10 hr pink noise track on YouTube which supposes to work better and quicker.  I am burning in my Susvara with it now


----------



## Andykong

krude said:


> Anyone running HA300 MK2 with ~6v output DAC via XLR? (May, Dave etc.) Any issues with signal clipping with this kinda voltage? Asking cause a lot of tube amps start distorting above the typical ~4v.


In my experience, that depends on your headphones.  If you are using headphones with higher sensitivity, this shouldn't be a problem. On the other hand, if you are using low-sensitivity headphones such as Susvara, a hot source will limit the range of volume you can use.  For example, with a standard 4V XLR input, you can turn the volume to 1 o'clock, but with 6V input, you can only turn the volume to 11 o'clock, this "might" affect the performance of your system slightly, you need to pay attention to the dynamic and transient to judge whether you need to find a way to lower your input level with your headphones.


----------



## Andykong

Erwinatm said:


> Yes Andy, because now people can buy things from online store. From people they havent met before and only know the products from reading forums like this. Your job plays substantial role here. In 90s or early 2000s we have to go to the store and listened to the products, know the products, hear the salesman explains A to Z and ended up not buying it but choose other brand....hahaha. The good thing is, we build up relationship between seller and user. If something goes wrong, we easily return the products to that salesman and he will take care of your curiosity, wrong doing, malfunction etc etc. That time is almost over, now we write to forum and other users will help you. Sometimes you can have satisfying answers and mostly dont.... It is a new world.
> 
> Speaking of tubes amp I agree that we must have basic knowledge on handling tubes amp just like turntables, but alot easier.
> 
> ...



We feel the same regarding the implication of online stores, especially with tube amplifiers that, in many cases, might need more support than a solid-state amplifier or a DAP.  Unfortunately, this is the way we have to move on.  

Forum and social media are indeed very helpful platforms for both users and manufacturers, however, I must emphasize that there the role of the dealer must not be undermined.  I had a lot of bad experiences when a user or reviewer decided to bring his problems/questions to these platforms before giving their dealer a proper chance to help them out.  

Your reference to the turntable is very good analogous, I'll try to make good use of this example in the future.  When I start my audiophile journey in the good old days, manufacturers developed and delivered good products, but it is up to the users to learn the theory and skills involved in the HiFi hobby.  Users gathering and show/shop demonstrations were my major source of information at that time, and forums have replaced that function to a very large extent.  Unfortunately, I do run into some unusual situations in which users assume the makers are responsible for everything, including educating them about the technologies of our products.  This happens more commonly with high-end DAP, a product that covers both audiophiles and lifestyle users, but vacuum tube amplifiers will also run into a similar situation occasionally.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 30, 2022)

I have well over 100 hours now on my HA300mk2, and the amp has become very quiet and holy crap it just doesn't let up!   This amp is so damn good, it has taken me a while to get a handle on the sound, and now that I am a getting more familiar with it and it's pretty much completely burned in, I am really starting to notice more nuance within the staging and other aspects of the sound.  The thing that is really jumping out this morning, is how freaking good this amp is at layering and depth within the stage.  It's one layer after the other and they just keep expanding out and out seemingly filling my entire room and the decay is just so right and I can really get a sense for the space.  The way it throws everything in its own space and seemingly has no end to how far things can expand is just flat out stunning.  I think a big part of the magic is good 300B tubes (Elrog ER300B), and then the other part is how well Cayin designed and tuned the amp.  This thing is so refined, powerful and effortless it's nuts, with speed and impact I can literally feel, and I just can't get enough.

Every song no matter the genre truly is an adventure!

Thanks to Cayin for making such an amazing product and for a great price as well!  I love this amp!

Back to the music. . .


----------



## Andykong

Wes S said:


> Interesting times in this hobby right now, as it seems many new people are getting into headphones lately.  I worked my way up to this endgame amp and cut my teeth with much more affordable tube amps learning about tubes along the way, and I have to say the activity in this thread is quite strange and not at all what I expected it to be like for a TOTL tube amp.  Jumping straight to the top without have a freaking clue is not the way I do things, but apparently with all the recent post in this thread it seems many do.   There is a ton of info out there on learning about tubes and tube amps, and I think people should really do their homework before jumping into tubes and especially an "Endgame" 300B amp with 8 tubes.
> 
> You are doing an amazing job being patient and answering all these novice questions, and Cayin has done an outstanding job creating such an amazing 300B amp for a really good price.  Personally, I don't think Cayin could have done it any better, and I wouldn't change a single thing about it.
> 
> Thanks for being professional and staying so connected (answering questions at 3am) and for all the info you provide!  It's really nice knowing we have someone as knowledgeable as you following along.



Well, I have a theory about this.  COVID has trapped everybody at home and frozen a lot of spending behavior.  The global chip crisis is causing more damage during this difficult time.  If you plan to buy a new car between mid-2020 to mid-2022, there is a big chance that you had deferred that purchase already because you don't need to travel to work or hang out with your friends.  If you used to enjoy one or two vacations per year, there is a big chance you have saved up a lot of money because you can't go anywhere except in your backyard.  So suddenly you have a lot of "budget" and home audio or home entertainment seems to be the most reasonable option, and high-end headphone is more "accommodative" (or study room friendly) when compared to a speaker-based setup.  When compared to the budget we normally assign for a new car or a family vacation, the HA-300MK2 is not that expensive.  

Last but not least, if you were using high-end DAP and IEM because you want the best when you commute every day, but now you don't need to travel on bus or underground/tubes, it makes sense to stop buying new DAP but go for desktop headphone amplifier and full-size headphones instead of another pair of high-end IEM.   

By the way, if there is "a ton of info out there on learning about tubes and tube amps", maybe we can compile a list of Vacuum Tube Headphone Amplifier 101, and I can add the list to the first page (probably post #2) of this thread, making it accessible to all newcomers.  I have compiled similar resources years ago, but they are in Chinese, unfortunately.


----------



## Andykong

Alenotta said:


> I really appreciate the info from headfi users. It’s a very fun and supportive community. I’ve always loved headphones but started getting more and more into the hobby as Covid trapped me in my home office. It’s been highly entertaining/frustrating experimenting with gear and chain upgrades.



I see, so you get into this hobby and end up with HA-300MK2 because of COVID?   



Alenotta said:


> Just got a pair of cheaper Ken Rad black glass 6sn7s from eBay. They sound really natural. I also really have been enjoying some RCA coin base ones. Tried some old GEs but they sounded a bit odd in the mids. All of them probably need more break in / warm up time. Also ordered a mystery grab bag of rectifier tubes from that site that was recommended. One day I’ll try the Elrog 300b, but I have to let my funding recuperate for a while before justifying that to myself. The Gold Lions have a nice punch and weight. I thought the Gold Lion 6922 variety was the best new tube I had heard in my Liquid Platinum. I always find myself saying I don’t know how it can get much better than this…and then you figure out the next rung on the ladder to madness.
> 
> Anyway, headphone nuts of all varieties, knowledge levels, expendable income and insanity - you’re appreciated.  Hope everyone is having fun listening this holiday weekend.





Roybenz said:


> Elrog 300b and MELZ 1578 ? Should i just find these right away? How do they alter the sound of stock tubes?



The tube rolling game has two folds: to improve the performance of your amplifier, and to fine-tune the sound signature of the amplifier to your personal preference.  So take your time on this long and winding journey, it's a lot of fun, and in my opinion, the essence of the game is exploration and variety, so jumping to a conclusion is not necessarily the best route.  

Besides, if you are new to the tube rolling game, I think it is important to experience the process and to hear the difference with your own ears because you invest big money to expensive vacuum tubes.


----------



## Saberpunch

Andykong said:


> By the way, if there is "a ton of info out there on learning about tubes and tube amps", maybe we can compile a list of Vacuum Tube Headphone Amplifier 101, and I can add the list to the first page (probably post #2) of this thread, making it accessible to all newcomers.  I have compiled similar resources years ago, but they are in Chinese, unfortunately.



That would be amazing if you compile that list! I don't own a 300B unit, but I own the 6V6 unit, the HA-3A. I really enjoyed reading this thread because 300B does pique my interest, but it's currently too expensive to start tube rolling the 300B for me. I probably spent $500+ on tube rolling the HA-3A and I just learned about the holy grail 6V6 Tube the Visseaux recently. I would be lying if I say I don't regret it, but I can say it was a really fun experience. So a list or a guide would be cool for newcomers like me.


----------



## Skyediver

Andykong said:


> Well, I have a theory about this.  COVID has trapped everybody at home and frozen a lot of spending behavior.  The global chip crisis is causing more damage during this difficult time.  If you plan to buy a new car between mid-2020 to mid-2022, there is a big chance that you had deferred that purchase already because you don't need to travel to work or hang out with your friends.  If you used to enjoy one or two vacations per year, there is a big chance you have saved up a lot of money because you can't go anywhere except in your backyard.  So suddenly you have a lot of "budget" and home audio or home entertainment seems to be the most reasonable option, and high-end headphone is more "accommodative" (or study room friendly) when compared to a speaker-based setup.  When compared to the budget we normally assign for a new car or a family vacation, the HA-300MK2 is not that expensive.
> 
> Last but not least, if you were using high-end DAP and IEM because you want the best when you commute every day, but now you don't need to travel on bus or underground/tubes, it makes sense to stop buying new DAP but go for desktop headphone amplifier and full-size headphones instead of another pair of high-end IEM.
> 
> By the way, if there is "a ton of info out there on learning about tubes and tube amps", maybe we can compile a list of Vacuum Tube Headphone Amplifier 101, and I can add the list to the first page (probably post #2) of this thread, making it accessible to all newcomers.  I have compiled similar resources years ago, but they are in Chinese, unfortunately.


Great post, a couple of things:  we’re all audiophiles here, so we don’t do things sensibly, lol!  I’ve worked from home for the last twelve years, and I STILL want/pursue both desktop and portable setups. 

Joking aside, I’d LOVE to see something that is in the “Tubes 101” arena that consolidates and encourages/supports self-education of all the knowledge necessary to really maximize tube amp/tube rolling enjoyment.  Forums are great, no doubt, but the rapid and endless stream of tidbits of information don’t necessarily make it the best methodology for learning systematically.  Great for community engagement, sharing of preferences and all, but doesn’t compare to other methodologies like books.  And I realize suggesting a book (or online course) would be a better format to educate ourselves than forums alone makes me sound like a dinosaur from the 1980s, but I think a pinned post(s) of “101 info” could still be valuable.  Google searches and a LOT of trial and error work that has its expected battle scars (error is literally a key part of the phrase) only goes so far. They could be complimentary actually.

Main reason I’m sharing this is after owning other tube amps (Glenn OTL, Pendant), I think I’m at a place where this Cayin is the one I want to truly, deeply maximize to its fullest over the next few years, so any and all info I can get in a consolidated fashion will be welcomed.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Wes S

For those looking for some rectifiers, the tube god's are listening, and there are some 22DE4's listed on ebay.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Nov 30, 2022)

Wes S said:


> For those looking for some rectifiers, the tube god's are listening, and there are some 22DE4's listed on ebay.


it was considerably overpriced, but at least I finally got a quad of raytheons

3 dealers suddenly dumped their stock haha, wonder why all of them release their stock at the same time


----------



## Alenotta

Wes S said:


> So, I just had a major revelation this morning with my HA300mk2!   I have been battling a bit with some intermittent noise no matter what tubes I am using with my VC's, and I have been trying to convince myself it sounds so freaking good that I could live with that little bit of intermittent noise.  However, on a whim I finally tried the 4.4mm output, and holy crap the amp is dead silent as in SS kind of silent with my VC's, and it still sounds fantastic.  This amp is so versatile it's nuts, with 3 different outputs and then 3 different impendance settings on top of that, I think anyone could dial in this amp with any headphone no matter the sensitivity.  I really think Cayin has accomplished something special with this amp, being that it has 300B's and can drive the power hungry Susvara as well as super sensitive headphones and iems.
> 
> The versatility of this amp is freaking awesome!


You’re def right about the output.  Zach from ZMF actually recommends using the 4.4 output with dynamics. Also try swapping slots for the 6sn7s. Sometimes the same tubes seated in the other slot bring the noise floor down for me. This doesn’t make a lot of sense, but it is an observation I noted with my VC. The Caldera and other planars don’t really pick up on the noise floor.


----------



## Wes S (Nov 30, 2022)

Alenotta said:


> You’re def right about the output.  Zach from ZMF actually recommends using the 4.4 output with dynamics. Also try swapping slots for the 6sn7s. Sometimes the same tubes seated in the other slot bring the noise floor down for me. This doesn’t make a lot of sense, but it is an observation I noted with my VC. The Caldera and other planars don’t really pick up on the noise floor.


After some back and forth, I am actually back to using the XLR output as it sounds much better to me than the 4.4mm.  I did swap some tubes and the amp is quiet as can be so all is well.  The 4.4mm output sounds decent, but the XLR sounds magical with my VC's.


----------



## jamato8

Wes S said:


> After some back and forth, I am actually back to using the XLR output as it sounds much better to me than the 4.4mm.  I did swap some tubes and the amp is quiet as can be so all is well.  The 4.4mm output sounds decent, but the XLR sounds magical with my VC's.


I don't like the 4.4 at all. It needs to come off of the same point as the XLR and not be padded with resistors. It is killing dynamics, transparency and sound in general. Single ended is better, easily or the XLR.


----------



## Andykong (Nov 30, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> I have a question about Cayin's power supply to the 300B tubes.
> 
> I asked a question in the "Headphone Tube Amps - The hunt for all 300B tube amps" thread about the expected lifespan of the Elrog ER300B tubes - and Thomas Mayer responded in post #1596.
> 
> ...



The keyword in HA-300MK2 is 22DE4 vacuum tube rectified power supply.

If you look at the specification of any 300B vacuum tube, you should notice that the filament can be powered by either AC or DC.  To enhance the signal-to-noise ratio of HA-300MK2, Cayin uses DC Stabilized Power Supply here.   The Plate (P) is powered by the 22DE4 vacuum tube rectified power supply, the 300B vacuum tube Plate voltage will increase gradually as per the output voltage of the rectifier tubes.  This is, in our opinion, the best we can do to extend the life of your 300B vacuum tube.





Extracted from Western Electric 300A&B Datasheet 1939


----------



## Andykong

Saberpunch said:


> That would be amazing if you compile that list! I don't own a 300B unit, but I own the 6V6 unit, the HA-3A. I really enjoyed reading this thread because 300B does pique my interest, but it's currently too expensive to start tube rolling the 300B for me. I probably spent $500+ on tube rolling the HA-3A and I just learned about the holy grail 6V6 Tube the Visseaux recently. I would be lying if I say I don't regret it, but I can say it was a really fun experience. So a list or a guide would be cool for newcomers like me.





Skyediver said:


> Great post, a couple of things:  we’re all audiophiles here, so we don’t do things sensibly, lol!  I’ve worked from home for the last twelve years, and I STILL want/pursue both desktop and portable setups.
> 
> Joking aside, I’d LOVE to see something that is in the “Tubes 101” arena that consolidates and encourages/supports self-education of all the knowledge necessary to really maximize tube amp/tube rolling enjoyment.  Forums are great, no doubt, but the rapid and endless stream of tidbits of information don’t necessarily make it the best methodology for learning systematically.  Great for community engagement, sharing of preferences and all, but doesn’t compare to other methodologies like books.  And I realize suggesting a book (or online course) would be a better format to educate ourselves than forums alone makes me sound like a dinosaur from the 1980s, but I think a pinned post(s) of “101 info” could still be valuable.  Google searches and a LOT of trial and error work that has its expected battle scars (error is literally a key part of the phrase) only goes so far. They could be complimentary actually.
> 
> ...


If I were to develop such a list, it will be recognized as Cayin Vacuum Tube Amplifier 101 by our competitors or dedicated user of other brands.  So preferably, the Vacuum Tube Amplifier 101 should be prepared by someone who is not afflicted with any brand officially.


----------



## Skyediver

Very good point about the competitive consideration @Andykong .  Fully get that and hadn't considered.  I guess that's why this and other forums become so valuable.  I've resorted to doing a bit of cut & paste work to formulate my own notes, eBay sellers, etc.  Seems to be the only viable way.  Thanks for the consideration/explanation.


----------



## Alenotta

Skyediver said:


> Very good point about the competitive consideration @Andykong .  Fully get that and hadn't considered.  I guess that's why this and other forums become so valuable.  I've resorted to doing a bit of cut & paste work to formulate my own notes, eBay sellers, etc.  Seems to be the only viable way.  Thanks for the consideration/explanation.


It'd be cool to have a list of tubes by model and manufacturer that link to sound impressions and comparisons for each. I also really like the charts that ZMF does where you have headphones / pads on the spectrum of warm / bright etc. Some tubes for dummies features as well as in depth stuff.


----------



## jamato8

Alenotta said:


> It'd be cool to have a list of tubes by model and manufacturer that link to sound impressions and comparisons for each. I also really like the charts that ZMF does where you have headphones / pads on the spectrum of warm / bright etc. Some tubes for dummies features as well as in depth stuff.


There are generalizations and that can even be found by doing some web search and there are huge threads, even on Headfi about the 6SN7 but tubes vary depending upon the actual operating points being used and other variables.


----------



## Skyediver

It’s the endless variables that always make this challenging for me.  The methodical part of my mind loves the idea of spreadsheet tracking of everything to test/roll to keep track of impressions but it’s a fine line for me between the fun/excitement of doing that and it becoming a joy-draining chore.  Keep telling myself that just LISTEN & ENJOY the music, which is easy to do with this amp, and not get lost in too much tube rolling minutiae.   It’s a balancing act.


----------



## Alenotta

Skyediver said:


> It’s the endless variables that always make this challenging for me.  The methodical part of my mind loves the idea of spreadsheet tracking of everything to test/roll to keep track of impressions but it’s a fine line for me between the fun/excitement of doing that and it becoming a joy-draining chore.  Keep telling myself that just LISTEN & ENJOY the music, which is easy to do with this amp, and not get lost in too much tube rolling minutiae.   It’s a balancing act.


Yeah exactly I love the idea but wouldn’t want to be the one testing haha


----------



## Erwinatm

jamato8 said:


> I don't like the 4.4 at all. It needs to come off of the same point as the XLR and not be padded with resistors. It is killing dynamics, transparency and sound in general. Single ended is better, easily or the XLR.


Yes agree, XLR much better than 4.4 mm. 
The single ended is also marvelous with my grado. Vocal sweeter & intimate. Thou you still can hear noise for 90db headphones.


----------



## Alenotta

Erwinatm said:


> Yes agree, XLR much better than 4.4 mm.
> The single ended is also marvelous with my grado. Vocal sweeter & intimate. Thou you still can hear noise for 90db headphones


I use the XLR for my planar and the 4.4 for my  VCs. My XLR was noisier than the 4.4 on the VCs.


----------



## msq123

jamato8 said:


> Don't like cages. Never use them with tubes. If a problem with cats, they will learn real fast.
> 
> I see the price on eBay for the 22DE4 has gone way up. They are really taking advantage of this. The tubes in quantity were selling for around 50 cents and often dumped because they sat on shelves for years with no apparent use. Profit mongers.
> 
> ...



How does z10e compare against 300b mk2? I am assuming it is more SS like with a linear tonality. Which one do you prefer for your dynamic and planar headphones?. 🍻


----------



## Erwinatm

Alenotta said:


> I use the XLR for my planar and the 4.4 for my  VCs. My XLR was noisier than the 4.4 on the VCs.


Awesome. Like Wes said it's so versatile you have plenty of choice for your enjoyment.

I have tried some planars like Susvara, Diana TC, Empyrean, they're all very quiet. Except LCD5, still can hear it barely if you concentrate finding it.


----------



## dnd3241

Erwinatm said:


> Awesome. Like Wes said it's so versatile you have plenty of choice for your enjoyment.
> 
> I have tried some planars like Susvara, Diana TC, Empyrean, they're all very quiet. Except LCD5, still can hear it barely if you concentrate finding it.


I almost face the same thing like you, with the XLR it's quiet for Susvara, 1266, 800s, Empyrean, except ZMF VC carried some low noice from the right side.


----------



## jamato8

msq123 said:


> How does z10e compare against 300b mk2? I am assuming it is more SS like with a linear tonality. Which one do you prefer for your dynamic and planar headphones?. 🍻


I am still burning in the MK2. I am a little over 70 hours now and still hear changes. It is opening up more now, thankfully as it was open, then a little too warm and more closed in for many hours and then more open and then more closed and yesterday it started opening up more and more, with more transparency and "air". 

The Z10e can drive the Expanse without issue and do it well. The MK2, so-so. I thought it would have more power going out to the planar. For the ES R10, SR2, Utopia and other phones of like sensitivity, great. Also the MK2 has gotten extremely quiet. I use mostly the XLR. Both the 6.3mm and XLR are very good. But need more hours for everything to settle, caps to form and dielectrics to settle in. Very big thought on presentation, which is very good. Big sound but not just big but well layered and dynamic. 

I am currently using some Tung-sol round plate NOS I was given years ago. I have more NOS in the TS RP but wanted to use these and the Elrog with Japanese 22DE4 rectifiers.


----------



## msq123

jamato8 said:


> I am still burning in the MK2. I am a little over 70 hours now and still hear changes. It is opening up more now, thankfully as it was open, then a little too warm and more closed in for many hours and then more open and then more closed and yesterday it started opening up more and more, with more transparency and "air".
> 
> The Z10e can drive the Expanse without issue and do it well. The MK2, so-so. I thought it would have more power going out to the planar. For the ES R10, SR2, Utopia and other phones of like sensitivity, great. Also the MK2 has gotten extremely quiet. I use mostly the XLR. Both the 6.3mm and XLR are very good. But need more hours for everything to settle, caps to form and dielectrics to settle in. Very big thought on presentation, which is very good. Big sound but not just big but well layered and dynamic.
> 
> I am currently using some Tung-sol round plate NOS I was given years ago. I have more NOS in the TS RP but wanted to use these and the Elrog with Japanese 22DE4 rectifiers.


Thanks for sharing your experience with these amps.  I am also relatively new to this amp and still getting familiar. My Elrog 300s are arriving tomorrow followed by VT231 Ken Rad clear glass which were recommended by Brent from audiotubes.com.  Can’t wait to try these and then probably change rectifier to GE.  But so far it has been great, and I love the authority with which it drives all the headphones I have tried so far.  I am very curious about Z10e, seems like a great amp and great value if you consider it is a class leading energiser too, not sure if it sounds too solid state or possible to take it down by rolling tubes.  I hope to try this in person soon.

I am a little surprised with your expanse impression because I was reading headfonics review of expanse and they talked about amazing synergy with Cayin. Maybe things improve for you with Elrogs? Look forward to hear your impressions once you have had more time with your new tubes. Thanks


----------



## jamato8

msq123 said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience with these amps.  I am also relatively new to this amp and still getting familiar. My Elrog 300s are arriving tomorrow followed by VT231 Ken Rad clear glass which were recommended by Brent from audiotubes.com.  Can’t wait to try these and then probably change rectifier to GE.  But so far it has been great, and I love the authority with which it drives all the headphones I have tried so far.  I am very curious about Z10e, seems like a great amp and great value if you consider it is a class leading energiser too, not sure if it sounds too solid state or possible to take it down by rolling tubes.  I hope to try this in person soon.
> 
> I am a little surprised with your expanse impression because I was reading headfonics review of expanse and they talked about amazing synergy with Cayin. Maybe things improve for you with Elrogs? Look forward to hear your impressions once you have had more time with your new tubes. Thanks


It is driving the Expanse better now. But it also depends upon the music.


----------



## mfgillia

Alenotta said:


> I use the XLR for my planar and the 4.4 for my  VCs. My XLR was noisier than the 4.4 on the VCs.


Same with my Atriums though finding my preference varies with the tubes. With the RCA 5692 prefer the XLRs as the noise on high impedance isn't an issue compared to other 6sn7s tried so far.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 1, 2022)

RFT 6SN7 WPFGCS + Elrog ER300B + Sicte 22DE4 = Insanity at it's finest






Seriously, this tube combo is dynamite with my VC's, and I just can't get enough of the sonics, as well as the looks.  

Happy Rolling and Listening!


----------



## jamato8

Wes S said:


> RFT 6SN7 WPFGCS + Elrog ER300B + Sicte 22DE4 = Insanity at it's finest
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, mine is falling into place. 80 plus hours now and doing the job in spades. 

As it has opened up and burned in, the Expanse are sounding way better with it now. Using the 6.3mm as I don't have a XLR for the cable of the Expanse and have to make an adapter to go from 4.4 to XLR.


----------



## Wes S

jamato8 said:


> Yes, mine is falling into place. 80 plus hours now and doing the job in spades.
> 
> As it has opened up and burned in, the Expanse are sounding way better with it now. Using the 6.3mm as I don't have a XLR for the cable of the Expanse and have to make an adapter to go from 4.4 to XLR.


Heck yeah!  This amp definitely comes into it's own with a good 100 hours of burn-in, and just like you mentioned earlier, it sure does quiet down and open up once you get there.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Since there is no 22DE4 thread, I guess this is the defacto 22DE4 place

I am wondering if anyone knows anything about Lindal's 22DE4, I imagine its most likely a white label, but from whom? Any guesses?


----------



## jamato8

ARCXENOS said:


> Since there is no 22DE4 thread, I guess this is the defacto 22DE4 place
> 
> I am wondering if anyone knows anything about Lindal's 22DE4, I imagine its most likely a white label, but from whom? Any guesses?


What does the construction look like? Any images?


----------



## jamato8

Has anyone tried the new WE 300Bs in the MK2?


----------



## ARCXENOS

jamato8 said:


> What does the construction look like? Any images?


I tried to look up my history, but I can't seem to find them anymore. I wonder if they were the hitachi ones, I could not remember. But I managed to (nicely) ask a seller on ebay to take them out of a lot of Lindal tubes, 5 for 30 USD, so I'll find out soon. Worst case if they are duplicate rebranded ones that I have (or will get), I finally have backup copies of 22DE4s. 

Interestingly, when I looked in my history, I remembered there was this listing https://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/134313254838

Amperex branded 22de4s definitely have to be white label I imagine! Those tung sols definitely pique my interest as well, I wonder if tung sol actually made them, but I have a feeling I won't see them in the wild for a long time


----------



## Wes S (Dec 2, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> I tried to look up my history, but I can't seem to find them anymore. I wonder if they were the hitachi ones, I could not remember. But I managed to (nicely) ask a seller on ebay to take them out of a lot of Lindal tubes, 5 for 30 USD, so I'll find out soon. Worst case if they are duplicate rebranded ones that I have (or will get), I finally have backup copies of 22DE4s.
> 
> Interestingly, when I looked in my history, I remembered there was this listing https://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/134313254838
> 
> Amperex branded 22de4s definitely have to be white label I imagine! Those tung sols definitely pique my interest as well, I wonder if tung sol actually made them, but I have a feeling I won't see them in the wild for a long time


I have some Amperex branded 22DE4's that are actually made by G.E., and I have also seen quit a few other rebranded 22DE4's.  For instance, these G.E. labeled tubes below that are listed on ebay right now, are actually made by Tung Sol.






I have also seen Westinghouse branded tubes, that were actually made by Raytheon Japan.  Another one I have seen is ITT labeled 22DE4's that were actually Raytheon too.  I have seen and own a few other rebrands but I can't remember which one's off the top of my head.  That being said, who knows what those Lindal labeled one's are without seeing the inner construction.  I have every brand of 22DE4 except for those rare Top Getters that @jamato8 has, and will be happy to help anyone identify the make of 22DE4's if you post of pic of said tube.


----------



## ARCXENOS (Dec 2, 2022)

Wes S said:


> I have some Amperex branded 22DE4's that are actually made by G.E., and I have also seen quit a few other rebranded 22DE4's.  For instance, these G.E. labeled tubes below that are listed on ebay right now, are actually made by Tung Sol.
> 
> 
> 
> I have also seen Westinghouse branded tubes, that were actually made by Raytheon Japan.  Another one I have seen is ITT labeled 22DE4's that were actually Raytheon too.  I have a few other rebrands but I can't remember which one's of the top of my head.  That being said, who knows what those Lindal labeled one's are without seeing the inner construction.  I have every brand of 22DE4 except for those rare top Getters that @jamato8 has, and will be happy to help anyone identify the make of 22DE4's if you post of pic of said tube.



Will do, I will post the pictures when they arrive

and the GEs that I have, has the construction of the GEs in that picture, did I have tung-sol all along?!

So now I should find a GE-constructed GE quad for collection?! Tube collection is a sickness that I have but at least the 22DE4s aren't super expensive (those quads are overpriced on ebay though!)


----------



## Wes S (Dec 2, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Will do, I will post the pictures when they arrive
> 
> and the GEs that I have, has the construction of the GEs in that picture, did I have tung-sol all along?!
> 
> So now I should find a GE-constructed GE quad for collection?! Tube collection is a sickness that I have but at least the 22DE4s aren't super expensive (those quads are overpriced on ebay though!)


You might have some Tung-Sol or RCA, as they look extremely similar.  As for the prices of the quads on eBay, those are actually not that bad, and all the reputable dealers have been listing them for around that price for years.  That one "dealer" that was selling them super cheap, probably didn't test them or vet where they were aquired from, so they dumped them at a low price to get rid of them.  I bought some from that "dealer" that had them listed for $3 a piece and one of the tubes had "bad stock" written on the box and so I did not even try that one, and another one I got from them did not light up when I fired it up in my amp, and I few other's were noisy, so you get what you pay for.  That being said those prices on Ebay are about right, and will only continue to rise as more dealers learn that us headphone guys with Cayin tube amps are looking for them.  I have seen this time and time again over the years, where we will chat up a tube type or specific brand in the forums and then they start showing up for sale and the prices eventually rise.  The dealers always seem to find out one way or another what people are looking for, and that's a major reason I like to chat up tubes in these threads.  For instance, we have been talking up the 22DE4 lately, and look what just happened on eBay with those 2 new vendors (of which mentioned the HA300 in their listings), and I am sure there will be other's catching on soon with more 22DE4's to be had.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> You might have some Tung-Sol or RCA, as they look extremely similar.  As for the prices of the quads on eBay, those are actually not that bad, and all the reputable dealers have been listing them for around that price for years.  That one "dealer" that was selling them super cheap, probably didn't test them or vet where they were aquired from, so they dumped them at a low price to get rid of them.  I bought some from that "dealer" that had them listed for $3 a piece and one of the tubes had "bad stock" written on the box and so I did not even try that one, and another one I got from them did not light up when I fired it up in my amp, and I few other's were noisy, so you get what you pay for.  That being said those prices on Ebay are about right, and will only continue to rise as more dealers learn that us headphone guys with Cayin tube amps are looking of them.  I have seen this time and time again over the years, where we will chat up a tube type or specific brand in the forums and then they start showing up for sale and the prices eventually rise.  The dealers always seem to find out one way or another what people are looking for, and that's a major reason I like to chat up tubes in these threads.  For instance, we have been talking up the 22DE4 lately, and look what just happened on eBay with those 2 new vendors (of which mentioned the HA300 in their listings), and I am sure there will be other's catching on soon with more 22DE4's to be had.


Yup, I have definitely seen more 22DE4s in these couple of days than the start of when I received the mk2 to a couple of months. 

I wonder if I say ELROG 22DE4 enough times it would will them into existence

I must admit, even though I paid an upcharge from Tube World Express for my "GE" quad, I definitely got what I paid for, they were in pristine condition.

p.s. ELROG 22DE4


----------



## Wes S

ARCXENOS said:


> Yup, I have definitely seen more 22DE4s in these couple of days than the start of when I received the mk2 to a couple of months.
> 
> I wonder if I say ELROG 22DE4 enough times it would will them into existence
> 
> ...


Nice!  I would also love to see an Elrog made 6SN7.


----------



## msq123

No one told me these are going to be so big. Looks gorgeous too, can’t wait to try them.
Sylvania and GE 22DE4 and Ken Rad VT231 arriving next week.  It’s all coming together for my Xmas treat


----------



## Alenotta

Wes S said:


> I have some Amperex branded 22DE4's that are actually made by G.E., and I have also seen quit a few other rebranded 22DE4's.  For instance, these G.E. labeled tubes below that are listed on ebay right now, are actually made by Tung Sol.
> 
> 
> 
> I have also seen Westinghouse branded tubes, that were actually made by Raytheon Japan.  Another one I have seen is ITT labeled 22DE4's that were actually Raytheon too.  I have seen and own a few other rebrands but I can't remember which one's off the top of my head.  That being said, who knows what those Lindal labeled one's are without seeing the inner construction.  I have every brand of 22DE4 except for those rare Top Getters that @jamato8 has, and will be happy to help anyone identify the make of 22DE4's if you post of pic of said tube.


My grab bag of 22DE4 just came in from Surplus Sales of Nebraska. Sent masterfully bubble wrapped inside a jiffy pop box. Love this place.
https://www.surplussales.com/Tubes-Sock-Acc/7-99/TubesListed_7-99_4.html

I got 8 GEs and 10 randoms. (You can't pick your tubes other than GE)

The GEs are coin base. Not sure if there is a difference between the different models. 

3x RCA that are not coin base / they are the more standard thicker base. They definitely are different build than what came in the amp. 
1x ITT - this one is coin base. Similar build to the RCA and GE, but different spacing inside. 
1 x El Menco - This tube looks really cool. Standard base. Looks new and says Japan. Similar to Tung Sol, but taller. 
1 x Tung Sol - standard base 
1 x Sylvania - standard base
1 x Hoffman - standard base - wonder if this is made by someone else? 
1 x Westinghouse - standard base

Very interested in finding out if any of these tubes are manufactured by the same company. 

Just swapped in the GE tubes for the first time. I'm not sure the production year of the coin base GEs but I'm sure they haven't warmed up for 50 years or something. Right out of the box my impression is that they have a bit more low end than the RCA. Slightly less air possibly? I personally like both sounds. I wish I had another quad of tubes to test. I want a quad of these El Menco. 

I also just got some 12au7 adapters in the mail to test out in the 6sn7 slot. They are available on ebay, but shipping takes a long while from China.


----------



## Alenotta

Can you mix and match 22de4s? They should all be the same spec right? Also, why the heck do rectifier tubes affect the sound if they are just changing AC to DC? This is the most puzzling tube swap to me.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Alenotta said:


> My grab bag of 22DE4 just came in from Surplus Sales of Nebraska. Sent masterfully bubble wrapped inside a jiffy pop box. Love this place.
> https://www.surplussales.com/Tubes-Sock-Acc/7-99/TubesListed_7-99_4.html
> 
> I got 8 GEs and 10 randoms. (You can't pick your tubes other than GE)
> ...


oh man I think a bunch of us just caused a 22DE4 shortage, its now 4.50 per tube, up from 2 bucks when I ordered

I ordered 4x sylvania and 16 randoms for gambling, hopefully I get a couple of same brand pairs, its being shipped currently

They have got to thank @JeffMann for posting their link, their SEO game and ordering process is not very modernized



Alenotta said:


> Can you mix and match 22de4s? They should all be the same spec right? Also, why the heck do rectifier tubes affect the sound if they are just changing AC to DC? This is the most puzzling tube swap to me.


Supposedly, based on past conversation in this thread, you can mix and match, but I haven't tried it out.  I remember thinking about how the amp would look like its from mad max due to random 22de4s being used if there is a shortage of quads. Thankfully for me, I guess the quads I (will) have would outlast the amp itself.


----------



## Alenotta

ARCXENOS said:


> oh man I think a bunch of us just caused a 22DE4 shortage, its now 4.50 per tube, up from 2 bucks when I ordered
> 
> I ordered 4x sylvania and 16 randoms for gambling, hopefully I get a couple of same brand pairs, its being shipped currently
> 
> ...


Oh whaaat I thought they were sold out of Slyvania! I guess I should have asked that in the comments. I asked for no RCAs and I got 4 so I think you get what you get haha.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Alenotta said:


> Oh whaaat I thought they were sold out of Slyvania! I guess I should have asked that in the comments. I asked for no RCAs and I got 4 so I think you get what you get haha.


There was an upcharge, you had to ask directly. They also had a quad of westinghouse for 46 dollars, which is a good chunk below the current ebay listing.

I think for the 2 (now 4.5) dollar option, they'll simply pick out whatever they see first...but hopefully they don't start giving out more GEs (that cost less from their own standards!), they did inform me that they were facing a 22DE4 shortage, so hopefully whatever I get is still something nice-ish


----------



## Alenotta

ARCXENOS said:


> There was an upcharge, you had to ask directly. They also had a quad of westinghouse for 46 dollars, which is a good chunk below the current ebay listing.
> 
> I think for the 2 (now 4.5) dollar option, they'll simply pick out whatever they see first...but hopefully they don't start giving out more GEs (that cost less from their own standards!), they did inform me that they were facing a 22DE4 shortage, so hopefully whatever I get is still something nice-ish



Let me know how the Slyvania ones sound compared to the GE. I feel like rectifiers probably make the least impact on the tone?


----------



## ARCXENOS

Alenotta said:


> Let me know how the Slyvania ones sound compared to the GE. I feel like rectifiers probably make the least impact on the tone?


Will do, so far from my limited sample size of 2 different quads, there seem to be a difference, but definitely not as much as driver and power tubes. Despite their cost, which most likely should be the least among the 3 types, I think 22DE4s should be rolled last as a "finishing touch". Like the GEs I have seem to have a different bass presentation and slight staging differences vs the stock RCA

I think generally, its something like a 60-35-5 split in my experience for driver : power : rectifier,  but again sample size of 2,  I will have to roll more rectifiers to be a little more confident of that.

I am open to the fact that it may just be psychoacoustics playing tricks on my mind, but frankly if $50 placebo is all it takes to make me have more enjoyment, I'd pay it. Hell maybe its the glow from the different rectifiers.   



Alenotta said:


> I also just got some 12au7 adapters in the mail to test out in the 6sn7 slot. They are available on ebay, but shipping takes a long while from China.


PS, if you can find tesla ecc802s at an agreeable price, maybe read it up abit. They are my favourite 12AU7 substitution on the mk2


----------



## jamato8

Nothing will be good if you don't start with an excellent power supply. For many years, tube products were made with the power supply as a second thought. What does the AC musical signal ride on? It is on the DC and the DC is smoothed by the caps and even some by resistors. Now the better the DC, the cleaner and better the AC signal has to ride on and the better the sound, if the amplifier section has been done correctly. So rectifiers will always have an impact on the sound, they are the basis for the DC that everything depends upon. Some rectifiers are better designed than others.


----------



## Erwinatm

Alenotta said:


> Can you mix and match 22de4s? They should all be the same spec right? Also, why the heck do rectifier tubes affect the sound if they are just changing AC to DC? This is the most puzzling tube swap to me.


Yes you can. I use 2 GEs and 2 RCAs


----------



## jamato8

I don't see anyone mentioning tube testers. I don't use tubes until I test them. That is for shorts and then now well they are matched.


----------



## ARCXENOS

jamato8 said:


> I don't see anyone mentioning tube testers. I don't use tubes until I test them. That is for shorts and then now well they are matched.


any recommendations? I've been wondering about it, since I am fairly certain I would be rolling tubes not just for the mk2 but also future tube amps.. might be a worthwhile investment


----------



## jamato8

ARCXENOS said:


> any recommendations? I've been wondering about it, since I am fairly certain I would be rolling tubes not just for the mk2 but also future tube amps.. might be a worthwhile investment


There are a number of good tube testers but you want one that does mutual conductance and one that has been calibrated. A TV7, TV10, most of the Hickoks are good and there are others. Prices really vary. I have 7 or 8, 2 Hickok 439Cs (one like new), 3 TV7, TV10 and a couple of others. They have all been calibrated. Using a piece of tube equipment to find out if a tube is bad, is not a good way to go. :^)


----------



## Wes S

Wes S said:


> I have some Amperex branded 22DE4's that are actually made by G.E., and I have also seen quit a few other rebranded 22DE4's.  For instance, these G.E. labeled tubes below that are listed on ebay right now, are actually made by Tung Sol.
> 
> 
> 
> I have also seen Westinghouse branded tubes, that were actually made by Raytheon Japan.  Another one I have seen is ITT labeled 22DE4's that were actually Raytheon too.  I have seen and own a few other rebrands but I can't remember which one's off the top of my head.  That being said, who knows what those Lindal labeled one's are without seeing the inner construction.  I have every brand of 22DE4 except for those rare Top Getters that @jamato8 has, and will be happy to help anyone identify the make of 22DE4's if you post of pic of said tube.


Looks like I was wrong on this one, and these GE labeled tubes are actually RCA tubes.  Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> Looks like I was wrong on this one, and these GE labeled tubes are actually RCA tubes.  Sorry for the confusion.


Thank you for the info, I have been wondering, these the Raytheons I ordered, I have noticed that the plates looking pretty similar to a couple of other 22DE4s, may I know if they are similar to the raytheons you know about?


----------



## Renexx (Dec 3, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Thank you for the info, I have been wondering, these the Raytheons I ordered, I have noticed that the plates looking pretty similar to a couple of other 22DE4s, may I know if they are similar to the raytheons you know about?


I did order those too. They should be Japanese grey plates, you can see made in Japan print on the base. Similar to the black plates variant. In my cayin HA-3A I like those black plates.

Westinghouse and Raytheon did outsource manufacturing to Japan in the late 60s and 70s.


----------



## Roybenz

What DACs are you guys using with the ha300b? 

Im planning on using moon 680D, it has 2V output. Would this be a good match?


----------



## JeffMann (Dec 3, 2022)

Alenotta said:


> My grab bag of 22DE4 just came in from Surplus Sales of Nebraska. Sent masterfully bubble wrapped inside a jiffy pop box. Love this place.
> https://www.surplussales.com/Tubes-Sock-Acc/7-99/TubesListed_7-99_4.html
> 
> I got 8 GEs and 10 randoms. (You can't pick your tubes other than GE)
> ...


I wonder whether it would be advantageous for a group of Cayin HA300 amp owners to get together as a COOP to buy out their entire supply of 22de4 tubes. Then, the COOP could put together quad sets of the same brands of 22de4 tubes and sell them at a slightly higher price. I have far more 22de4 tubes than I need for my personal use, and I am willing to contribute $100 to this COOP plan, with the expectation that I will get my $100 back when the entire collected supply of 22de4 tubes is eventually sold off. I am also willing to freely donate to the COOP many of those thirty-two 22de4 tubes that I originally purchased from Surplus Sales of Nebraska as an experiment on behalf of Cayin HA300 amp owners.

Jeff.


----------



## JeffMann

Roybenz said:


> What DACs are you guys using with the ha300b?
> 
> Im planning on using moon 680D, it has 2V output. Would this be a good match?


I have tried using my three DACs - Wyred-4-Sound 2v2se 10th Anniversary Limited Edition, Musician Aquarius and Denafrips Pontus II - and the best sound by far is when I use the Denafrips Pontus II DAC. 

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

ARCXENOS said:


> Thank you for the info, I have been wondering, these the Raytheons I ordered, I have noticed that the plates looking pretty similar to a couple of other 22DE4s, may I know if they are similar to the raytheons you know about?


There were two main factories in Japan that made the tubes. There were more but two did a lot of the work. They were then labeled by Raytheon etc. but it wasn't a Raytheon factory.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I wonder whether it would be advantageous for a group of Cayin HA300 amp owners to get together as a COOP to buy out their entire supply of 22de4 tubes. Then, the COOP could put together quad sets of the same brands of 22de4 tubes and sell them at a slightly higher price. I have far more 22de4 tubes than I need for my personal use, and I am willing to contribute $100 to this COOP plan, with the expectation that I will get my $100 back when the entire collected supply of 22de4 tubes is eventually sold off. I am also willing to freely donate to the COOP many of those thirty-two 22de4 tubes that I originally purchased from Surplus Sales of Nebraska as an experiment on behalf of Cayin HA300 amp owners.
> 
> Jeff.


A coop could be fun for some. A person would need a good tube tester, know structure so as to match the tubes up. Test for shorts etc.


----------



## jamato8

Andykong said:


> I see, so you get into this hobby and end up with HA-300MK2 because of COVID?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a question. What does the MK2 do with an input that is balanced via the XLRs?


----------



## JeffMann

jamato8 said:


> I have a question. What does the MK2 do with an input that is balanced via the XLRs?


It is my understanding that there is a special input transformer that is then used to convert the balanced signal to single-ended.

Jeff.


----------



## dnd3241

Roybenz said:


> What DACs are you guys using with the ha300b?
> 
> Im planning on using moon 680D, it has 2V output. Would this be a good match?


2V output is a little bit low for some  low sensitivity headphone such as Susvara or Abyss , my dac is 3.8V still needs a pre-amp to booth the gains for those monster headphone.


----------



## JeffMann

dnd3241 said:


> 2V output is a little bit low for some  low sensitivity headphone such as Susvara or Abyss , my dac is 3.8V still needs a pre-amp to booth the gains for those monster headphone.


Strange!

My Denafrips Pontus II outputs 2V out of the RCA outputs and my Cayin HA300Mk2 headphone amplifier's volume control is usually located between 10 - 12 o'clock when listening to my Susvara headphone.

Jeff.


----------



## dnd3241 (Dec 4, 2022)

Anyone have an experience of WE 300B?
The attached picture is 1988 Nos. 
Unused asking $1500 , is it fair?


----------



## Alenotta

Gustard sent me the November firmware update if anyone on here needs it: 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/x6ls7ozjg4m7dmx/Gustard_R26_CT_221115_via_type-C.zip/file

I just installed it and I still have a high pitch hum. It sounds a little less loud...or my brain is adapting to it. Still no Tidal Connect unfortunately.


----------



## Wes S

If anyone is looking for some Ken-Rad 6SN7GT Black Glass, I have a perfectly matched NOS pair for sale in the classifieds priced to sell.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> If anyone is looking for some Ken-Rad 6SN7GT Black Glass, I have a perfectly matched NOS pair for sale in the classifieds priced to sell.


I am still keeping my pair for the day I buy a pair of takatsuki 300b

 but for gold lion users, that is a very good price!


----------



## EagleKent

Has anyone upgraded from Denafrips Pontus II to Chord Hugo TT2?  I see you can pick up a used TT2 for half the price of a new and wonder if it's worthwhile selling my Pontus to fund a used TT2.  I have got the Susvara now and if the TT2 and HA-300B can push it to new heights compared to Pontus then I am tempted.  I have heard the TT2 with the Susvara but it was a brief audition hence memory is a bit hazy.  The strong impression is that the Susvara sounded very natural (the most natural sounding headphone I have heard so far) on the TT2 compared to Pontus but without A/Bing back to back, I am only fantasizing.  Thanks


----------



## Roybenz

Hi. Today I got the ha300mk2. I wonder if it’s normal that the power supply makes an electrical noise? It starts after a few seconds and doesn’t go away.


----------



## jamato8

Roybenz said:


> Hi. Today I got the ha300mk2. I wonder if it’s normal that the power supply makes an electrical noise? It starts after a few seconds and doesn’t go away.


What do you mean electrical noise? Through the headphones?


----------



## Roybenz (Dec 6, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> What do you mean electrical noise? Through the headphones?


No coming from the psu. See video, last i put my phone on top of the psu. Now i can hear the sound going lower and higher.

Video of sound from psu

One more of noise psu


----------



## jamato8

Roybenz said:


> No coming from the psu. See video, last i put my phone on top of the psu. Now i can hear the sound going lower and higher.
> 
> Video of sound from psu
> 
> One more of noise psu


That would be the transformer. Some AC is noisier than other due to interference on the AC line, Do you hear it from your listening position? Can you feel a slight vibration on the transformer housing? Depending upon the AC, there can be some hum from the transformer and it can vary during the day. Do you have anything where you are that is a heavy AC user? Also, some refrigerators can cause this.


----------



## Roybenz

I hear it from listening position. Don’t have anything else except for dac and iMac, and I use an isotek Aquarius power filter. Tried also plugging in the wall. Same noise.


----------



## jamato8

Roybenz said:


> I hear it from listening position. Don’t have anything else except for dac and iMac, and I use an isotek Aquarius power filter. Tried also plugging in the wall. Same noise.


How is the noise, or lack of, through the headphones? 

Do you have any other 22DE4 tubes to try?


----------



## Roybenz

Headphones doesnt make noise. Even on full volume (Music off) 

Don’t have any other tubes. 
Dealer said it could go away after a while.

Did you let it run for burn in ? It doesn’t take damage from being on for 3-4 days? It’s very hot compared to my moon 430had  doesn’t sound that much different either. But something good maybe happen during burn in.


----------



## jamato8

Roybenz said:


> Headphones doesnt make noise. Even on full volume (Music off)
> 
> Don’t have any other tubes.
> Dealer said it could go away after a while.
> ...


Unlike solid-state I do not leave tube equipment on when I am not home. One, tube equipment gets hotter but also there are some high voltages at work and it is safer, if something fails, to be around when the tube equipment is on. 

Having said this. though someone was always around the equipment, I was in the Navy on a small ship and all we had was tube equipment. I was a radioman and equipment was always left on of course but still different from home amps.


----------



## krude

Quick question, did anyone own (or owns) an EL34 / KT88 amp and use it with Susvara or comparable planars? Im hearing a lot of ineresting takes on EL34 / KT88 and 300B, some people saying 300B is an upgrade in musicality with weaker bass and dynamics, some say it has deeper and fuller bass and better dynamics, some people say you can roll them to sound virtually identical. 

Basically Im on HA6a and happy with my Susvara performance trying tp figure out how big of a step up, if at all, will a 300B amp be 🤷‍♂️


----------



## jamato8

krude said:


> Quick question, did anyone own (or owns) an EL34 / KT88 amp and use it with Susvara or comparable planars? Im hearing a lot of ineresting takes on EL34 / KT88 and 300B, some people saying 300B is an upgrade in musicality with weaker bass and dynamics, some say it has deeper and fuller bass and better dynamics, some people say you can roll them to sound virtually identical.
> 
> Basically Im on HA6a and happy with my Susvara performance trying tp figure out how big of a step up, if at all, will a 300B amp be 🤷‍♂️


The MK2 with the 300B is excellent bass and dynamics but so should a well made EL34 amp. It is all design and then preference on sound. I like the EL84 and a number of the KTs a lot. I think the purest is the EL84 but then you don't have the power but it is a great tube, IMO. But really some like an EL34 based amp and some might like the 300B. And then the design of the amp comes into play.


----------



## ThanatosVI

krude said:


> Quick question, did anyone own (or owns) an EL34 / KT88 amp and use it with Susvara or comparable planars? Im hearing a lot of ineresting takes on EL34 / KT88 and 300B, some people saying 300B is an upgrade in musicality with weaker bass and dynamics, some say it has deeper and fuller bass and better dynamics, some people say you can roll them to sound virtually identical.
> 
> Basically Im on HA6a and happy with my Susvara performance trying tp figure out how big of a step up, if at all, will a 300B amp be 🤷‍♂️


That depends on the 300B amp.
If you search for one in the same price point as the Ha-6a it's unlikely thst it will surpass it. (300B amps have more expensive parts most of the time)
So a 300B amp won't be better by default, a 7k amp will most often be better due to better parts used in general.

If you invest some serious Cash there are slso KT88 amps that are a noteable step up from the Cayin Ha-6a,  like my Octave V16 Single Ended. 

The Final sound is more a result of the Implementation and less of the tube type used.


----------



## jamato8 (Dec 6, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> That depends on the 300B amp.
> If you search for one in the same price point as the Ha-6a it's unlikely thst it will surpass it. (300B amps have more expensive parts most of the time)
> So a 300B amp won't be better by default, a 7k amp will most often be better due to better parts used in general.
> 
> ...


Sometimes, sometimes not. You can't rely on price to denote the quality of parts. I have seen Radio Shack pots that cost 1.50 in expensive preamps. They are good but not so good to be in a piece costing a few thousand dollars. And transformers can cost a lot but that doesn't mean they are good. Transformers are also an art in making and I have seen some lower cost ones perform exceedingly well. And as you mention, it is implementation. I have seen inexpensive parts used to make a world class product in sound.

Superphon is an example of a company that exceeded many companies and used parts that were not expensive. They were top class designed by Stan Warren. And there are others.


----------



## ThanatosVI

jamato8 said:


> Sometimes, sometimes not. You can't rely on price to denote the quality of parts. I have seen Radio Shack pots that cost 1.50 in expensive preamps. They are good but not so good to be in a piece costing a few thousand dollars. And transformers can cost a lot but that doesn't mean they are good. Transformers are also an art in making and I have seen some lower cost ones perform exceedingly well. And as you mention, it is implementation. I have seen inexpensive parts used to make a world class product in sound.
> 
> Superphon is an example of a company that exceeded many companies and used parts that were not expensive. They were top class designed by Stan Warren. And there are others.


Obviously "more expensive" =/= "better"
However there is a general correlation between those. 

Most 300B amps are in a higher price segment than his Caying Ha-6a and therefore can utilize better parts without exceeding budget. This does not mean that they automatically do


----------



## paradoxper

krude said:


> Quick question, did anyone own (or owns) an EL34 / KT88 amp and use it with Susvara or comparable planars? Im hearing a lot of ineresting takes on EL34 / KT88 and 300B, some people saying 300B is an upgrade in musicality with weaker bass and dynamics, some say it has deeper and fuller bass and better dynamics, some people say you can roll them to sound virtually identical.
> 
> Basically Im on HA6a and happy with my Susvara performance trying tp figure out how big of a step up, if at all, will a 300B amp be 🤷‍♂️


You'll need to be careful. Amp topology will matter a great deal in differentiation of each 300B amp. Generally 300B leans more warm and musical with the KT88 offering more dynamic extension, however, 300B tube also lacks sufficiently with the Elrog ER300B being something almost entirely different with a real spectrum shift.


----------



## Alenotta

Wow, so I've been mostly listening to my ZMF Caldera on the medium impedance output. When I first got the amp it just seemed like the best sound. The amp has been burning in over the last month and I decided to give high impedance a try tonight. The stage widened out and I feel more air between instrument placement. I've done a 180 on what impedance I feel like matches the Caldera best on this amp.


----------



## Roybenz

Would someone with the HA300 check if the psu makes noise like this? I made another clip of the transformator sound 

You have to put the phone up to your ear to hear what I hear in the room.  

Thanks.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Roybenz said:


> Would someone with the HA300 check if the psu makes noise like this? I made another clip of the transformator sound
> 
> You have to put the phone up to your ear to hear what I hear in the room.
> 
> Thanks.



I'm quite sure that it's not supposed to make a sound like this.

I would contact Support with that vodeo


----------



## tinariwen

krude said:


> Quick question, did anyone own (or owns) an EL34 / KT88 amp and use it with Susvara or comparable planars? Im hearing a lot of ineresting takes on EL34 / KT88 and 300B, some people saying 300B is an upgrade in musicality with weaker bass and dynamics, some say it has deeper and fuller bass and better dynamics, some people say you can roll them to sound virtually identical.
> 
> Basically Im on HA6a and happy with my Susvara performance trying tp figure out how big of a step up, if at all, will a 300B amp be 🤷‍♂️


I went from the Ha-6a to the 300mk2, and used the Susvara with both. I think it depends on the tubes you’re using with the ha6a. The 300mk2 probably sounds more muscular when comparing both with stock tubes, but not by much. The other thing to keep in mind is the ha6a is far easier and cheaper to tube roll, and because of the el34/kt88 has more options to dial in the sound.


----------



## Roybenz

Wes S said:


> Mine took around 100 hours with music playing, to really quiet down and open up.


100 hrs did the trick ? Quiet down do you mean the buzzing from psu like I have posted in video ?


----------



## Wes S

Roybenz said:


> 100 hrs did the trick ? Quiet down do you mean the buzzing from psu like I have posted in video ?


I don't have any buzzing like in your video, and I was talking about background noise through my headphones.


----------



## Yggy

I received a Synergistic Research Black T1.6a 20mm x 5mm fuse last night. Put it into my HA-300 and it sounded great. Was difficult to isolate any improvement because I was also using a DHC Prion4 with my Susvaras for the first time. Turned the HA-300 on tonight and it was dead. Switched the stock fuse back in and it was fine. I’m assuming the fuse has blown. I’ve double checked the HA-300 manual and looks like I’m using the right fuse?


----------



## jamato8

Yggy said:


> I received a Synergistic Research Black T1.6a 20mm x 5mm fuse last night. Put it into my HA-300 and it sounded great. Was difficult to isolate any improvement because I was also using a DHC Prion4 with my Susvaras for the first time. Turned the HA-300 on tonight and it was dead. Switched the stock fuse back in and it was fine. I’m assuming the fuse has blown. I’ve double checked the HA-300 manual and looks like I’m using the right fuse?


For the UK that would be the right amperage. For the US, with half the voltage, the average is doubled and is 3.15A.


----------



## Yggy

I’m in the UK so looks like I just got a dud fuse.


----------



## paradoxper

For you high rollers, check out Thomas Mayer's affinity for the 22DE4.
https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2022/11/tube-of-month-22de4.html


----------



## Wes S

paradoxper said:


> For you high rollers, check out Thomas Mayer's affinity for the 22DE4.
> https://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2022/11/tube-of-month-22de4.html


Thanks for sharing!  I am having a blast rolling all my 22DE4's, and it's great to know T.M. is a fan of this tube type too.


----------



## Alenotta

Wes S said:


> Thanks for sharing!  I am having a blast rolling all my 22DE4's, and it's great to know T.M. is a fan of this tube type too.


What have been your favorite so far? I'm using the GEs currently. I have the coin base style which it seems is essentially the same as the Slyvania. I feel like they brought the low end up from the default RCA ones.


----------



## Wes S

Alenotta said:


> What have been your favorite so far? I'm using the GEs currently. I have the coin base style which it seems is essentially the same as the Slyvania. I feel like they brought the low end up from the default RCA ones.


Tough call, as I like them all.  I am currently running some Japanese made black plates, and loving it.


----------



## Andykong

Roybenz said:


> Hi. Today I got the ha300mk2. I wonder if it’s normal that the power supply makes an electrical noise? It starts after a few seconds and doesn’t go away.





Roybenz said:


> Would someone with the HA300 check if the psu makes noise like this? I made another clip of the transformator sound
> 
> You have to put the phone up to your ear to hear what I hear in the room.
> 
> Thanks.




Thank you for recording the problem, after hearing the hum from your video, I suggest you get in touch with your dealer and report the problem if you haven't done so already, this is not what it should be, the PSU should run silently when operating normally.


----------



## JeffMann

Where does Thomas Mayer get boxes of 22de4 Sylvania tubes where each box contains 100 tubes?

Has anyone heard one of his custom-built headphone amplifiers?

Jeff.


----------



## ThanatosVI

JeffMann said:


> Where does Thomas Mayer get boxes of 22de4 Sylvania tubes where each box contains 100 tubes?
> 
> Has anyone heard one of his custom-built headphone amplifiers?
> 
> Jeff.


He probably bought them years ago. As tube amp manufacturer he probably has long standing connections to tube suppliers.

This is his website where you can read a little about the amps:
https://www.vinylsavor.com/en/products/other-1/

And a blog entry about his headamps:
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/search/label/Headphones

I couldn't listen to any of them, so I don't have any actual experience to share


----------



## tdx

Has anyone personally compared the HA-300 with the Feliks Envy, especially with a Susvara? As much as I love my Cayin, I cant help but wonder if the almost double the price of the Feliks amp also brings actual sonic benefits.


----------



## Alenotta

tdx said:


> Has anyone personally compared the HA-300 with the Feliks Envy, especially with a Susvara? As much as I love my Cayin, I cant help but wonder if the almost double the price of the Feliks amp also brings actual sonic benefits.


I heard them both at canjam but I didn’t A/B them. I think the Envy is weightier sounding from memory with default tubes. The Envy sounded really nice. The upgrade is a big price jump for sure.


----------



## tdx

Alenotta said:


> I heard them both at canjam but I didn’t A/B them. I think the Envy is weightier sounding from memory with default tubes. The Envy sounded really nice. The upgrade is a big price jump for sure.


Thanks. The thing is my HA-300 has fully upgraded tubes, Elrog 300Bs, Melz 1578s and GE rectifiers. So I wonder how the Feliks would compare with that configuration. Although of course I could transfer these tubes to the Envy if I went that route. Decisions, decisions...


----------



## incredulousity

tdx said:


> Thanks. The thing is my HA-300 has fully upgraded tubes, Elrog 300Bs, Melz 1578s and GE rectifiers. So I wonder how the Feliks would compare with that configuration. Although of course I could transfer these tubes to the Envy if I went that route. Decisions, decisions...


I have the same tubes in Envy, and I assure, they sound fantastic! I would not presume to say that it sounds better than the Cayin with the same tubes. I have fun rolling tubes, but the amp itself, with Elrog/Melz, is truly endgame tube amp for me.


----------



## tdx

incredulousity said:


> I have the same tubes in Envy, and I assure, they sound fantastic! I would not presume to say that it sounds better than the Cayin with the same tubes. I have fun rolling tubes, but the amp itself, with Elrog/Melz, is truly endgame tube amp for me.


Thanks that's useful info. I guess the only to know for sure would be to test both amps with these upgraded tubes. Wonder how far apart they would be. Maybe one day I'll be able to test.


----------



## Erwinatm

tdx said:


> Thanks. The thing is my HA-300 has fully upgraded tubes, Elrog 300Bs, Melz 1578s and GE rectifiers. So I wonder how the Feliks would compare with that configuration. Although of course I could transfer these tubes to the Envy if I went that route. Decisions, decisions...


I have had several 300B SE amps before for my speaker setup. They all have classic 300B sound, gorgeous midrange, intimate, deep 3D staging,  smooth treble, less hard hitting bass.

I like this Cayin HA300B because it has what I am missing from classic 300B amp -) extended crisp treble, deep bass (not hard hitting level thou) and still maintain the incredible midrange of 300B. It's like an improvement from WE oriented 300B, a modern 300B SE amp. I don't know about Envy never heard it before.

I also have heard a DIY 300B from Europe, quiet popular here. It is a good amp, very fast transient, dynamic, hard hitting bass, truly good amp. But, I think It is more like a push pull EL34 amp .  I am kinda missing the 300B trade mark which makes it a legend. gorgeous midrange, intimate vocal, the musicality that can draw, indulge you to the music.

Try it with Susvara, it will bring out the most of HA300B.

Cheers..enjoy the music.


----------



## Sound Eq (Dec 9, 2022)

tdx said:


> Has anyone personally compared the HA-300 with the Feliks Envy, especially with a Susvara? As much as I love my Cayin, I cant help but wonder if the almost double the price of the Feliks amp also brings actual sonic benefits.


i think if you chase a change were you would like to achieve a full bodied sound, i think that no matter what amp you will buy, the susvara will never be as some reviewers claim, to be this huge sound that will be full bodied. I had top of the line amps, yes you hear a difference using different amps, but will susvara ever change to be full bodied sound like an lcd4, never ever no matter what amp you use

the susvara is a fine sounding headphone, with great detail leaning on the thin side period, yes it has a big sound stage, but that stage is not filled. that is why susvara will remain its character no matter what amp will be used


----------



## Alenotta

Sound Eq said:


> i think if you chase a change were you would like to achieve a full bodied sound, i think that no matter what amp you will buy, the susvara will never be as some reviewers claim, to be this huge sound that will be full bodied. I had top of the line amps, yes you hear a difference using different amps, but will susvara ever change to be full bodied sound like an lcd4, never ever no matter what amp you use
> 
> the susvara is a fine sounding headphone, with great detail leaning on the thin side period, yes it has a big sound stage, but that stage is not filled. that is why susvara will remain its character no matter what amp will be used


If you are after richness with refinement try the ZMF Caldera. It is my favorite headphone atm.


----------



## krude

Sound Eq said:


> i think if you chase a change were you would like to achieve a full bodied sound, i think that no matter what amp you will buy, the susvara will never be as some reviewers claim, to be this huge sound that will be full bodied. I had top of the line amps, yes you hear a difference using different amps, but will susvara ever change to be full bodied sound like an lcd4, never ever no matter what amp you use
> 
> the susvara is a fine sounding headphone, with great detail leaning on the thin side period, yes it has a big sound stage, but that stage is not filled. that is why susvara will remain its character no matter what amp will be used



On my system Susvara has good bass slam on both HA6a and Oor, I've heard it gets better on the new Bliss and some 300B amps, namely WA5, Envy ... and some people claim HA300 MK2, I'm yet to verify those claims, but a well tuned system with May Oor or HA6a should give a weighty, punchy sound if you have it burned in and setup correctly. It's not a myth.

Will Utopia and TC slam harder on the same system? Yes, but these are slam kings 🤠 while Susvara should be able to have 85-90% of those dynamics while still doing other Susvara things.


----------



## ARCXENOS

krude said:


> On my system Susvara has good bass slam on both HA6a and Oor, *I've heard it gets better on the new Bliss* and some 300B amps, namely WA5, Envy ... and some people claim HA300 MK2, I'm yet to verify those claims, but a well tuned system with May Oor or HA6a should give a weighty, punchy sound if you have it burned in and setup correctly. It's not a myth.
> 
> Will Utopia and TC slam harder on the same system? Yes, but these are slam kings 🤠 while Susvara should be able to have 85-90% of those dynamics while still doing other Susvara things.



Hopefully my unit arrives soon so I can figure it out myself

Regarding the Susvara on the HA300B mk2, I would say it is definitely possible to have bass IMO, both in quality and quantity, depending on the tubes used. They only person that I personally know that straight up hated the HA300B MK2's bass presentation with the Susvara only uses speaker amps with it, so I guess ymmv?

And definitely agreed with the utopia thing, I am having fun rerolling all my tubes on it


----------



## Roybenz (Dec 10, 2022)

My HA300mkII (stock tubes) absolutely has more bass slam than my Moon 430had. Its wonderful 👍 running the susvara

Edit: i was going to try the 430had one more time before packing it down, and to my surprise- it actually plays warmer and with more bass, and sounds calmer, than the ha300mk2. I don’t understand how it’s possible and I’m I bit confused now. I run the moon 680D dac with both.


----------



## dnd3241

Roybenz said:


> My HA300mkII (stock tubes) absolutely has more bass slam than my Moon 430had. Its wonderful 👍 running the susvara


Totally Agreed!


----------



## Roybenz

I can’t agree with my self on M or H impedance. For susvara. What are you guys with susvara using ? Seems like it’s even more space/crisp on high? Does the amp deliver more Watt in H setting compared to M setting ?


----------



## mfgillia

Roybenz said:


> Does the amp deliver more Watt in H setting compared to M setting ?


Yes it does by quite a bit. 4 pin xlr goes from 2400mW to 6000mW - per channel....


----------



## Alenotta

Roybenz said:


> I can’t agree with my self on M or H impedance. For susvara. What are you guys with susvara using ? Seems like it’s even more space/crisp on high? Does the amp deliver more Watt in H setting compared to M setting ?


At first with my Caldera I thought M was definitely the way to go. Recently I switched to H and decided I was wrong. H really opened it up for me. I emailed Zach from ZMF and he explained that H lessens the dampening factor. So now I’m pretty exclusively in H. I wonder if you’re experiencing similar results with the Susvara. The Caldera is 64ohms and Susvara is 60ohms so that is similar.


----------



## krude (Dec 11, 2022)

Alenotta said:


> At first with my Caldera I thought M was definitely the way to go. Recently I switched to H and decided I was wrong. H really opened it up for me. I emailed Zach from ZMF and he explained that H lessens the dampening factor. So now I’m pretty exclusively in H. I wonder if you’re experiencing similar results with the Susvara. The Caldera is 64ohms and Susvara is 60ohms so that is similar.


I'm on HA6a but I think it works in the same way. I went through the L->M->H journey with Susvara as well and there's a few things I've noticed.
1. Going up in impedance brings forward the mids, and highs (and most importantly activates the dynamcis) but also loosens up deep bass damping (which for me is a good thing on Susvara ... actually all of those things are good on Susvara, but ... check point 2.)
2. Weather this sounds good or not depends on burn in of the amp and tubes, tubes used (darker / warmer / bassy tubes tend to sound better), warm up of the amp, level you listen at. So there's a whole host of variables.
3. I generally think about it like this : I want more dynamics in the mids, and highs on Susvara. I want a looser more present and punchy bass with less damping. So I need to have a dark presentation on L to start with, so that adding more energy to M and H doesn't make it bright and biting on the Sus. So it's a balancing game. When I first start the amp L sounds best, after 20 min or so M sounds best, 10 min later H sounds best ... but if I had bright tubes and a bright DAC I maybe wouldn't be able to balance it out like that.

Also I've noticed that I need to give the amp a minute or so (maybe a few) to "settle" with the new settings. Sometimes it sounds harsh when I switch impedance and mellows out in a minute or two. Same with volume.

So that's my take on it, granted from a different amp, but with a similar topology I think.


----------



## msq123

@Andykong My Cayin 300 mk2 (240v) was working fine and then suddenly without warning there was no sound from the right channel.  Everything seemed fine, tubes were glowing so don’t think the issue is tube failure although I am expecting some new tubes this week and I will try them  to rule this one out.  A mate who had OG told me about similar issue he faced and he had to open the power supply box with  and replace the fuse  circled in red As per Cayin’s tech team advise.  I plan to do the same to rule out any issue before reaching out to Cayin.  Could you please confirm that the spec of this fuse hasn’t changed from last gen and is still use T160mA250V.  

 I have also ordered spare fuse for the main power supply at the back (T1.6AL250V) and couple next to 300b tubes (20mmx 5mm 100mA slow blow).

Could you please confirm the specs for the fuse are correct and hopefully this resolves the issue. Thanks


----------



## ARCXENOS

Raytheons came in









My 6J5GT converter replacements also came in, I don't have a concrete comparison of 22DE4s yet as I am enjoying my GEC L63 again first. But construction is definitely more different than the GEs and RCAs (I compared, my quads only have a height difference of the plates between the 2 types).

The glow is pretty nice too. 



Awaiting my lindals (coming next month) and Sylvanias (by grace of USPS not losing my package because the last scan was on the 8th sooooo.....)


----------



## AudioPowerHead

ARCXENOS said:


> Raytheons came in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice Raytheons. How does this sound compared to the stock RCA 22de4s? I see seemingly dark burned patches on the inside of the tubes. Is this considered normal and safe to use ?


----------



## ARCXENOS

AudioPowerHead said:


> Very nice Raytheons. How does this sound compared to the stock RCA 22de4s? I see seemingly dark burned patches on the inside of the tubes. Is this considered normal and safe to use ?


not sure yet as I am using different drivers currently, gonna have to try it on the weekends with the mullard + elrog setup that I am used to

As for the patches, I believe yes its safe, only because I have other tubes that have that type of patch, and various legitimate sellers,  both online and local, are selling them as they are. Anyone have other thoughts, do educate me too


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Dec 13, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> not sure yet as I am using different drivers currently, gonna have to try it on the weekends with the mullard + elrog setup that I am used to
> 
> As for the patches, I believe yes its safe, only because I have other tubes that have that type of patch, and various legitimate sellers,  both online and local, are selling them as they are. Anyone have other thoughts, do educate me too


Appears to be getter flash, which is normal.  Indicates they have been used.

I stand corrected: https://tubesound.com/brown-or-black-getter-flashing-does-not-mean-used/


----------



## tinariwen

What specific Melz tubes should I be looking for? Certain years, or types of construction, or base colour / material etc.

The last time I owned an amp that took 6SN7s was a challenge to find the best regarded tubes.

Also, what do you guys think of the Ken Rads with Susvara?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

tinariwen said:


> What specific Melz tubes should I be looking for? Certain years, or types of construction, or base colour / material etc.
> 
> The last time I owned an amp that took 6SN7s was a challenge to find the best regarded tubes.
> 
> Also, what do you guys think of the Ken Rads with Susvara?


----------



## ARCXENOS

tinariwen said:


> What specific Melz tubes should I be looking for? Certain years, or types of construction, or base colour / material etc.
> 
> The last time I owned an amp that took 6SN7s was a challenge to find the best regarded tubes.
> 
> Also, what do you guys think of the Ken Rads with Susvara?




Time to visit the Legends in The Reference 6SN7 Thread. Do read up the different posts in that thread, you will see the different thoughts on it

I love the MELZ 1578 (I define it as a well balanced tube with a light sparkle and nice perceived soundstage), but I typically don't recommend it because its not easy to get, especially now, and they might have quality issues. If I remember correctly @ColSaulTigh and the other tube veterans did post examples on how to fix some pin issues though

Ken Rad black glass vt-231 was pretty bass centric with the gold lions on the susvara, IMO. Would love to try it with more traditional sounding 300bs in the future, I didn't quite enjoy it with the elrogs


----------



## ColSaulTigh

ARCXENOS said:


> Time to visit the Legends in The Reference 6SN7 Thread. Do read up the different posts in that thread, you will see the different thoughts on it
> 
> I love the MELZ 1578 (I define it as a well balanced tube with a light sparkle and nice perceived soundstage), but I typically don't recommend it because its not easy to get, especially now, and they might have quality issues. If I remember correctly @ColSaulTigh and the other tube veterans did post examples on how to fix some pin issues though
> 
> Ken Rad black glass vt-231 was pretty bass centric with the gold lions on the susvara, IMO. Would love to try it with more traditional sounding 300bs in the future, I didn't quite enjoy it with the elrogs


I have the video snippets filmed, I just need to edit them together to put up a video on how to reflow solder into the pins for Melz tubes.  It's not hard, just takes some patience.  Stay tuned.


----------



## bdjul

Do you guys know if I can use 6sn7 gtb tube on ha-300 mk1, will transformers be okay? Thank you!


----------



## jamato8

bdjul said:


> Do you guys know if I can use 6sn7 gtb tube on ha-300 mk1, will transformers be okay? Thank you!


All 6SN7 tubes have the same specs for current draw.


----------



## Erwinatm

jamato8 said:


> All 6SN7 tubes have the same specs for current draw.


How about ECC33? Is it safe for HA300?


----------



## msq123

Anyone here has experience with 2A3 based amp and how it compares to Cayin 300b? From what I understand 300b sounds impressive with lot of authority and basically put on a great show whereas 2A3 is more true and for the lack of better word real.

I am looking to explore 2A3 to go with my Cayin and think they both could complement each other. Doing my research I have shortlisted to DNA stratus or Stellaris but asking here in a more general sense how 2A3 sounds vs 300b. Any impressions or advice will be greatly helpful. Thanks


----------



## Erwinatm (Dec 14, 2022)

msq123 said:


> Anyone here has experience with 2A3 based amp and how it compares to Cayin 300b? From what I understand 300b sounds impressive with lot of authority and basically put on a great show whereas 2A3 is more true and for the lack of better word real.
> 
> I am looking to explore 2A3 to go with my Cayin and think they both could complement each other. Doing my research I have shortlisted to DNA stratus or Stellaris but asking here in a more general sense how 2A3 sounds vs 300b. Any impressions or advice will be greatly helpful. Thanks


I never heard 2A3 headphones amp before. For speakers, 2A3 has smaller output around 3-3.5 watts @8 ohm while 300B around 8-9 Watts. In general, 2A3 has flatter response than 300B, more transparant, open and more neutral mid. Bass is more controlled but not bigger, depends on the speakers' sensitivity.

Well, all depends on how you set it up, because its small wattage makes it rather difficult to find a matching speaker except horn or single driver speakers.

There is also another very good sounding tube, VT25. It even has lower output around 1.5W. Not enough for speaker amp but might be sufficient for headphone amp. 😉

A friend of mine told me that VT25 is 300B and 2A3 all in one. It has 2A3 treble, 300B Midrange and both bass. I hope someone someday will make a VT25 amp...🤞


----------



## paradoxper

msq123 said:


> Anyone here has experience with 2A3 based amp and how it compares to Cayin 300b? From what I understand 300b sounds impressive with lot of authority and basically put on a great show whereas 2A3 is more true and for the lack of better word real.
> 
> I am looking to explore 2A3 to go with my Cayin and think they both could complement each other. Doing my research I have shortlisted to DNA stratus or Stellaris but asking here in a more general sense how 2A3 sounds vs 300b. Any impressions or advice will be greatly helpful. Thanks


2A3 may carry the most varied presentation depending on many factors.
Very generally Stellaris is more lush and wet with a softer response, Studio T is dead-neutral, dry, extra sharp.
The Cayin compared to Stellaris will remain more rounded, bloomed and thick so they're quite complementary.

300B has minimal exceptions such as the Elrog ER300B.

If you may consider 2A3 give the 45 a look which strikes a middleground of the two as long as power requirements are met.


----------



## msq123

Erwinatm said:


> I never heard 2A3 headphones amp before. For speakers, 2A3 has smaller output around 3-3.5 watts @8 ohm while 300B around 8-9 Watts. In general, 2A3 has flatter response than 300B, more transparant, open and more neutral mid. Bass is more controlled but not bigger, depends on the speakers' sensitivity.
> 
> Well, all depends on how you set it up, because its small wattage makes it rather difficult to find a matching speaker except horn or single driver speakers.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I am only looking for a headphone amp, might use the pre in to my 2 channel power amp but primary use is headphone so efficiency as such not that big an issue.  It’s more about what they bring to table in terms of tonality and how do they complement something like Cayin 300s.

What you have said about the characteristics is in line with what I have read/heard about these and seems like a good amp to partner with Cayin 300. Will find out more about Vt25, it’s a shame that it’s almost impossible to demo tube amps but that’s the way it is.


----------



## msq123

paradoxper said:


> 2A3 may carry the most varied presentation depending on many factors.
> Very generally Stellaris is more lush and wet with a softer response, Studio T is dead-neutral, dry, extra sharp.
> The Cayin compared to Stellaris will remain more rounded, bloomed and thick so they're quite complementary.
> 
> ...



Cheers, this is awesome. Was looking to get impressions from someone who has tried both Cayin and DNA.  I recently got Elrogs and they do change the characteristics significantly and gone is the bloom but still well rounded and I love the authority and that euphonic mids that defines 300b.

I like more lush sound vs SS like dead neutral so Stellaris or Stratus sounds more to my taste. Will also check their thread to help me decide.


----------



## Wes S

ARCXENOS said:


> Raytheons came in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are some killer rectifiers.  I am running a quad and love the staging and top end.  They are well balanced and very open sounding.


----------



## jamato8

Wes S said:


> Those are some killer rectifiers.  I am running a quad and love the staging and top end.  They are well balanced and very open sounding.


Japanese tubes are nice. Last a long time and normally a high vacuum, which adds to the quality and they were sticklers on the metallurgy.


----------



## msq123

msq123 said:


> @Andykong My Cayin 300 mk2 (240v) was working fine and then suddenly without warning there was no sound from the right channel.  Everything seemed fine, tubes were glowing so don’t think the issue is tube failure although I am expecting some new tubes this week and I will try them  to rule this one out.  A mate who had OG told me about similar issue he faced and he had to open the power supply box with  and replace the fuse  circled in red As per Cayin’s tech team advise.  I plan to do the same to rule out any issue before reaching out to Cayin.  Could you please confirm that the spec of this fuse hasn’t changed from last gen and is still use T160mA250V.
> 
> I have also ordered spare fuse for the main power supply at the back (T1.6AL250V) and couple next to 300b tubes (20mmx 5mm 100mA slow blow).
> 
> Could you please confirm the specs for the fuse are correct and hopefully this resolves the issue. Thanks



Thanks to Cayin for quick turnaround. The issue was one of the fuse next to 300b tube. Apparently they have moved the location of the fuse from inside the power supply box to the outside.  I swapped the tubes and it’s all sorted.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 15, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Japanese tubes are nice. Last a long time and normally a high vacuum, which adds to the quality and they were sticklers on the metallurgy.


They sure are a step up from the U.S. made ones, and I am currently rolling back and forth between the grey/copper plates and black plates.  They both have their strengths and I love them both equally.  The black plates are warmer with deep slamming bass, and the grey plates are more open and a bit more transparent overall.


----------



## jamato8

Has anyone changed out the coupling caps? The caps from the 6SN7 to the 300B?


----------



## llamaluv

jamato8 said:


> Has anyone changed out the coupling caps? The caps from the 6SN7 to the 300B?



My friend installed some Duelund caps in my mk1. It was a little while ago and they took forever to burn in so it's hard for me to give reliable comparisons to stock at this point, but I feel convinced  I got more detail, nuance, and lushness for the trouble.


----------



## jamato8

llamaluv said:


> My friend installed some Duelund caps in my mk1. It was a little while ago and they took forever to burn in so it's hard for me to give reliable comparisons to stock at this point, but I feel convinced  I got more detail, nuance, and lushness for the trouble.


Interesting, I have used Duelund cast copper PIO and liked them a lot. More of everything but they don't color the sound. This is in another tube amp but like you say, it takes a while for them to burn in and I don't feel like swapping caps to do comparisons.


----------



## Wes S

jamato8 said:


> Interesting, I have used Duelund cast copper PIO and liked them a lot. More of everything but they don't color the sound. This is in another tube amp but like you say, it takes a while for them to burn in and I don't feel like swapping caps to do comparisons.


I myself would love to hear this amp with some Jupiter Copper Foil Caps, as I had those put in my last 2 amps and they were fantastic.  Maybe someday. . .


----------



## Wes S (Dec 16, 2022)

Folks, I have a rectifier to keep an eye out for, as it is clearly (pun intended 😜) a step up from all the rest.  The transparency and linearity in the mids is insane, and there is serious extension on both ends.  I am hearing more detail and nuances than I have with all my other rectifiers (I have every version/brand aside from one super rare made in Japan top getter version).   The staging with this rectifier is the most expansive and holographic I have heard so far.  I can hear so clearly and deep into the recording it's breathtaking.  I have seen this rectifier labeled as Raytheon and Westinghouse and have both, and they all have the made in Japan stamped on the base.  As @jamato8 has pointed out these were made by a Japanese company (not sure which one) for Raytheon and Westinghouse, and were made with the usual insane attention to detail and care that the Japanese are known for.  The said tube has copper/grey plates and are about an inch taller than all my other rectifiers aside from my Sicte, and look like this below.  If you have ever heard or read someone's description of the famous Melz 1578 driver tube being super linear, detailed, open and airy with zero fatigue, that's exactly how I would describe this rectifier.  It really is so cool being able to dial in the sound from 3 different angles (driver, power and rectifier), and a major reason why I prefer tube rectification vs. SS.












Happy Hunting, Rolling and Listening.


----------



## AudioPowerHead

Wes S said:


> Folks, I have a rectifier to keep an eye out for, as it is clearly (pun intended 😜) a step up from all the rest.  The transparency and linearity in the mids is insane, and there is serious extension on both ends.  I am hearing more detail and nuances than I have with all my other rectifiers (I have every version/brand aside from one super rare made in Japan top getter version).   The staging with this rectifier is the most expansive and holographic I have heard so far.  I can hear so clearly and deep into the recording it's breathtaking.  I have seen this rectifier labeled as Raytheon and Westinghouse and have both, and they all have the made in Japan stamped on the base.  As @jamato8 has pointed out these were made by a Japanese company (not sure which one) for Raytheon and Westinghouse, and were made with the usual insane attention to detail and care that the Japanese are known for.  The said tube has copper/grey plates and are about an inch taller than all my other rectifiers aside from my Sicte, and look like this below.  If you have ever heard or read someone's description of the famous Melz 1578 driver tube being super linear, detailed, and airy with zero fatigue, that's exactly how I would describe this rectifier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I need to get my hands on some Raytheon or Westinghouse rectifier tubes ! Thanks for sharing


----------



## Wes S (Dec 16, 2022)

AudioPowerHead said:


> I need to get my hands on some Raytheon or Westinghouse rectifier tubes ! Thanks for sharing


No problem, and hopefully some more will pop up for sale soon.  There were 3 pairs sold within the last week on eBay, and I am hoping that seller finds some more.  This was the listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/165805901028 and I was lucky to score one of the pairs.   Perhaps it might be worth reaching out to that seller to see if they have anymore, or have any more coming?


----------



## llamaluv (Dec 16, 2022)

This topic hasn't come up in a while, so lemme ask: Anyone else messing around with speakers with their HA-300?

Right now I'm using the HA-300 to power the Buchardt S400 mk2's that I just recently got, and it's pretty fun, even though these speakers (88dB, 4 ohms) are by no means the best fit for what a mere pair of 300B's can output.

The sound is fuller and more euphonic, and the lower-mids are more filled-in. Slower, more 'romantic', all the usual stuff. I like it, if only as an alternative, and particularly for jazz (which makes up most of my audio diet). My "reference" (solid state) amp is an AHB2. Also, I'm a 2-channel n00b.


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## JeffMann (Dec 16, 2022)

Wes S said:


> No problem, and hopefully some more will pop up for sale soon.  There were 3 pairs sold within the last week on eBay, and I am hoping that seller finds some more.  This was the listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/165805901028 and I was lucky to score one of the pairs.   Perhaps it might be worth reaching out to that seller to see if they have anymore, or have any more coming?


That was the vaccumtubesinc. listing I mentioned in my original post on 22de4 tubes - he sold me Westinghouse 22de4 tubes at $3 per tube.

Jeff.


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## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> No problem, and hopefully some more will pop up for sale soon.  There were 3 pairs sold within the last week on eBay, and I am hoping that seller finds some more.  This was the listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/165805901028 and I was lucky to score one of the pairs.   Perhaps it might be worth reaching out to that seller to see if they have anymore, or have any more coming?



Same seller that I bought my raytheons from, when I enquired about more 22DE4s this is what he had to say


I will list them as we find them. However, I must say that after examining all of the 22DE4 tubes we started out with, I saw maybe 5 or 6 different constructions, no matter what the branding. RCA, GE, and Sylvania definitely made them in the US. Hitachi definitely made them in Japan. Amperex, Raytheon, and Westinghouse bought them and did not make them.

Of course, those branded for the TV makers like Zenith and Admiral were made by one of the makers mentioned above.​

I have a feeling the lindals I bought were also one of the hitachi rebrands



AudioPowerHead said:


> Very nice Raytheons. How does this sound compared to the stock RCA 22de4s? I see seemingly dark burned patches on the inside of the tubes. Is this considered normal and safe to use ?


I have been comparing them the past few days, I would say the bass response is snappier with the raytheons, the difference between my GE and RCA is not as much as Raytheon vs RCA

I would say for more smoother setups, RCA is the way to go, but if you are aiming for impact, the raytheons (and I guess the other hitachi rebrands!) is the way to go.

Excited to hear difference when the sylvanias arrive


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## AudioPowerHead

ARCXENOS said:


> Same seller that I bought my raytheons from, when I enquired about more 22DE4s this is what he had to say
> 
> 
> I will list them as we find them. However, I must say that after examining all of the 22DE4 tubes we started out with, I saw maybe 5 or 6 different constructions, no matter what the branding. RCA, GE, and Sylvania definitely made them in the US. Hitachi definitely made them in Japan. Amperex, Raytheon, and Westinghouse bought them and did not make them.
> ...


Definitely getting myself some Hitachi rebranded 22de4s to try in near future. Thanks for sharing the sonic comparison between RCA and Raytheon.


----------



## jamato8

There were a few Japanese manufactures of tubes, Matsushita,  Toshiba (Tokyo Shibaura), NEC and Hitachi to name a few. NEC did a lot of manufacturing, well they all did. Even Mullards tooling from the UK was bought and brought to Japan for the manufacturing of tubes and they made some very fine EL34 tubes. 

The prices for the 22DE4 sadly have gone up and IMO, gone up to much. Sure, supply and demand but they were made by the millions and up till recently, if you bought any quantity, they were around 50 cents each at the most. Most sellers bought them for much less and man tossed them, as no one was using them any longer. It is much more fun to get tubes you can enjoy at a decent price but that is going away now on the 22DE4.


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## Antintheuniverse

During comparing of the performance of HD800S and HEKSE, I found there are hiss in HD800S while not in HEKSE, first i thought the hiss is coming from outside the headphone, in the end i found it is through the headphone. I did not recall it always has this hiss through HD800S though.


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## ARCXENOS (Dec 17, 2022)

Antintheuniverse said:


> During comparing of the performance of HD800S and HEKSE, I found there are hiss in HD800S while not in HEKSE, first i thought the hiss is coming from outside the headphone, in the end i found it is through the headphone. I did not recall it always has this hiss through HD800S though.



Seems about right to me, my planars have absolute pitch-black background no matter what

As for the rest, based on my experience, will depend on the tubes (including its warmup), its seating and rest of your system / environment. I think you can try to reseat the 6SN7 and 300B first and see whats up. Hopefully you can diagnose the issue

And just in case you didn't know, the 4.4mm output is better for noise control over the XLR and 6.35mm


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## Antintheuniverse

ARCXENOS said:


> Seems about right to me, my planars have absolute pitch-black background no matter what
> 
> As for the rest, based on my experience, will depend on the tubes (including its warmup), its seating and rest of your system / environment. I think you can try to reseat the 6SN7 and 300B first and see whats up. Hopefully you can diagnose the issue
> 
> And just case you didn't know, the 4.4mm output is better for noise control over the XLR and 6.35mm


Thanks, but 800s doesnot have the other cables except XLR, as for HEKSE, have not tried that yet since the XLR is good enough.


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## Wes S (Dec 17, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Seems about right to me, my planars have absolute pitch-black background no matter what
> 
> As for the rest, based on my experience, will depend on the tubes (including its warmup), its seating and rest of your system / environment. I think you can try to reseat the 6SN7 and 300B first and see whats up. Hopefully you can diagnose the issue
> 
> And just case you didn't know, the 4.4mm output is better for noise control over the XLR and 6.35mm


The 4.4mm definitely cuts down on noise, but also sounds a bit lifeless/gimped compared to the 1/4" and XLR to my ears.  If I could only use the 4.4mm, I would have sold this amp already.  The 1/4" and XLR both have the magic for me, and I actually prefer the 1/4" the most with my VC's.  Using my VC's with the XLR is super impactful and exciting but is too much power and the bass often over powers some of the lower mids.  Using the 1/4" with my VC's is the sweet spot, and is a more linear/natural sound top to bottom and I can hear everything in the mids, of which is truly a magical experience.


----------



## Erwinatm

llamaluv said:


> This topic hasn't come up in a while, so lemme ask: Anyone else messing around with speakers with their HA-300?
> 
> Right now I'm using the HA-300 to power the Buchardt S400 mk2's that I just recently got, and it's pretty fun, even though these speakers (88dB, 4 ohms) are by no means the best fit for what a mere pair of 300B's can output.
> 
> The sound is fuller and more euphonic, and the lower-mids are more filled-in. Slower, more 'romantic', all the usual stuff. I like it, if only as an alternative, and particularly for jazz (which makes up most of my audio diet). My "reference" (solid state) amp is an AHB2. Also, I'm a 2-channel n00b.


88 db @ 4 ohm is too heavy for a 300B SET amp to drive. I guess Buchardt min power requirement about 50w @8 ohm.  

You will hear only midrange and midbass dominant in the reproduction. Loss the dynamics, shrinking staging and miss the extended high and low bass. CMIIW.

You need at least speakers with 95db sens @ 8 ohm for HA300 to sing.


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## ARCXENOS (Dec 17, 2022)

Wes S said:


> The 4.4mm definitely cuts down on noise, but also sounds a bit lifeless/gimped compared to the 1/4" and XLR to my ears.  If I could only use the 4.4mm, I would have sold this amp already.  The 1/4" and XLR both have the magic for me, and I actually prefer the 1/4" the most with my VC's.


Yes I agree, I only use 6.35mm, I am not sure why but I think there must surely be some circuitry affecting the output during conversion

Thankfully for me most of my favorite tubes are silent with the utopia, so I can continue to use 6.35mm. I will probably get a 4.4mm cable eventually to have a better experience with the other tubes.

The planars will remain 6.35mm forever.


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## llamaluv

Erwinatm said:


> 88 db @ 4 ohm is too heavy for a 300B SET amp to drive. I guess Buchardt min power requirement about 50w @8 ohm.
> 
> You will hear only midrange and midbass dominant in the reproduction. Loss the dynamics, shrinking staging and miss the extended high and low bass. CMIIW.
> 
> You need at least speakers with 95db sens @ 8 ohm for HA300 to sing.



Yah, and as I said:

"*It's pretty fun, even though these speakers (88dB, 4 ohms) are by no means the best fit for what a mere pair of 300B's can output."*​​​


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## steve468

Hey everyone, can someone do me a favour and confirm the values of the internal fuse on the mk 1 (the one inside the power unit, not the one on the outside near the plug). I've blown that fuse so many times now that I've lost the plot and can't remember where I started! Maybe I'll tell that tale soon.


----------



## Andykong

Erwinatm said:


> 88 db @ 4 ohm is too heavy for a 300B SET amp to drive. I guess Buchardt min power requirement about 50w @8 ohm.
> 
> You will hear only midrange and midbass dominant in the reproduction. Loss the dynamics, shrinking staging and miss the extended high and low bass. CMIIW.
> 
> You need at least speakers with 95db sens @ 8 ohm for HA300 to sing.





llamaluv said:


> Yah, and as I said:
> 
> "*It's pretty fun, even though these speakers (88dB, 4 ohms) are by no means the best fit for what a mere pair of 300B's can output."*​​​



Sensitivity is just one of the factors, and probably not the most important factor IMHO.  The size of the speaker, the number of drivers (or complexity and efficiency of crossover), the volume of your listening area, and the music genres that you'll playback from this system will all play their roles in this subject.  For instance, a lot of Chinese audiophiles like to use 8 w.p.c. 300B SETA amplifier to pair with BBC LS3/5A monitors.  The speaker is rated at  82.5dB/W/M, but it's a small shoe-box speaker with a 4.5" (110mm) woofer and in most cases, set up in a relatively small listening area.  Most of the LS3/5A fans are focused on vocal-based music, no rock n roll, OST/orchestra, or demanding music of any sort.  The 4.5" woofer will bottom out when you drive it too hard anyway, that's why a lot of audiophile like to use 300B SETA with this 82dB small speaker.


----------



## Erwinatm

Andykong said:


> Sensitivity is just one of the factors, and probably not the most important factor IMHO.  The size of the speaker, the number of drivers (or complexity and efficiency of crossover), the volume of your listening area, and the music genres that you'll playback from this system will all play their roles in this subject.  For instance, a lot of Chinese audiophiles like to use 8 w.p.c. 300B SETA amplifier to pair with BBC LS3/5A monitors.  The speaker is rated at  82.5dB/W/M, but it's a small shoe-box speaker with a 4.5" (110mm) woofer and in most cases, set up in a relatively small listening area.  Most of the LS3/5A fans are focused on vocal-based music, no rock n roll, OST/orchestra, or demanding music of any sort.  The 4.5" woofer will bottom out when you drive it too hard anyway, that's why a lot of audiophile like to use 300B SETA with this 82dB small speaker.


Yes I have heard Audion Silver Night 300B (8w) with Rogers LS3/5. Like you said don't expect slamming bass, play orchestral music and must be placed in small room. 

I recall It sounded quiet nice. The Rogers could produce nice vocal and crisp treble. Midrange not bloated and heavy like most under power amps do.👌


----------



## Erwinatm

llamaluv said:


> Yah, and as I said:
> 
> "*It's pretty fun, even though these speakers (88dB, 4 ohms) are by no means the best fit for what a mere pair of 300B's can output."*​​​


Yes I know, you have AHB2 for Buchardt and HA300 for Susvara 👍👍👍


----------



## steve468

I have a tale of woe that I'd like to share with my fellow 300b-ers in here. I had gotten a pair of Western Electrics a few months ago, which very much angered the tube gods. The ominous thunder clap when I picked them up should have told me. A few weeks ago, one of the tubes developed a subtle but unmistakable static - not too bad, but could be heard over music. I thought I'd take advantage of that excellent warranty, and I eventually got a second pair. This pair was straight from the distributor, supposedly fresh from the manufacturer. I put them in and almost blew my left ear off! The left tube was clearly and immediately defective - the VU metre on that side was going crazy, and not long after the fuse blew. Just to be sure it wasn't the amp, I put the stock tubes back in and everything was fine again.

So did I just have the worst luck, or what? Anyway, I contacted Parts Connexion (who are EXCELLENT to deal with), telling them I was feeling a bit gun-shy about yet another pair of WE300b. It wasn't said directly, but it was heavily implied that Western Electric might be going through some of the growing pains that many other 300b manufacturers do. Western Electric isn't new of course, but their plant is new. Perhaps they don't quite have their new 300b formula down yet.

If I remember correctly, there was another person in this thread that had similar issues with WE300b. Let this be a lesson, don't anger the gods! That said, I love angering gods, so I exchanged the WEs for Takatsukis 

(Elrogs are 3-4 months out from Part Connexion, one of the reasons I didn't join the cult...yet)


----------



## ColSaulTigh

steve468 said:


> I have a tale of woe that I'd like to share with my fellow 300b-ers in here. I had gotten a pair of Western Electrics a few months ago, which very much angered the tube gods. The ominous thunder clap when I picked them up should have told me. A few weeks ago, one of the tubes developed a subtle but unmistakable static - not too bad, but could be heard over music. I thought I'd take advantage of that excellent warranty, and I eventually got a second pair. This pair was straight from the distributor, supposedly fresh from the manufacturer. I put them in and almost blew my left ear off! The left tube was clearly and immediately defective - the VU metre on that side was going crazy, and not long after the fuse blew. Just to be sure it wasn't the amp, I put the stock tubes back in and everything was fine again.
> 
> So did I just have the worst luck, or what? Anyway, I contacted Parts Connexion (who are EXCELLENT to deal with), telling them I was feeling a bit gun-shy about yet another pair of WE300b. It wasn't said directly, but it was heavily implied that Western Electric might be going through some of the growing pains that many other 300b manufacturers do. Western Electric isn't new of course, but their plant is new. Perhaps they don't quite have their new 300b formula down yet.
> 
> ...


The Elrog Gods know when you blaspheme against them!  Repent!  Repent your sins and order now!!!


----------



## jamato8

steve468 said:


> I have a tale of woe that I'd like to share with my fellow 300b-ers in here. I had gotten a pair of Western Electrics a few months ago, which very much angered the tube gods. The ominous thunder clap when I picked them up should have told me. A few weeks ago, one of the tubes developed a subtle but unmistakable static - not too bad, but could be heard over music. I thought I'd take advantage of that excellent warranty, and I eventually got a second pair. This pair was straight from the distributor, supposedly fresh from the manufacturer. I put them in and almost blew my left ear off! The left tube was clearly and immediately defective - the VU metre on that side was going crazy, and not long after the fuse blew. Just to be sure it wasn't the amp, I put the stock tubes back in and everything was fine again.
> 
> So did I just have the worst luck, or what? Anyway, I contacted Parts Connexion (who are EXCELLENT to deal with), telling them I was feeling a bit gun-shy about yet another pair of WE300b. It wasn't said directly, but it was heavily implied that Western Electric might be going through some of the growing pains that many other 300b manufacturers do. Western Electric isn't new of course, but their plant is new. Perhaps they don't quite have their new 300b formula down yet.
> 
> ...


That is why it is good to have a calibrated tube tester. 

How do you like the 300B Japanese tubes?


----------



## steve468

jamato8 said:


> That is why it is good to have a calibrated tube tester.
> 
> How do you like the 300B Japanese tubes?



A tube tester is not a bad idea…

I’ve only listened a couple hours so far, but the Takatsukis sound like they’re going to be a more neutral tube. The bass is already reaching deeper, and treble is more…complete sounding? So yeah, the WE300bs were probably a bit rolled on either end, as people say. But I have a feeling I’m going to miss that sweet treble and lush midrange. The sound was not the problem for me with those tubes.

I’ll try and post more impressions after some more burn in, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of impressions of the Taks out there.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

steve468 said:


> A tube tester is not a bad idea…
> 
> I’ve only listened a couple hours so far, but the Takatsukis sound like they’re going to be a more neutral tube. The bass is already reaching deeper, and treble is more…complete sounding? So yeah, the WE300bs were probably a bit rolled on either end, as people say. But I have a feeling I’m going to miss that sweet treble and lush midrange. The sound was not the problem for me with those tubes.
> 
> I’ll try and post more impressions after some more burn in, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of impressions of the Taks out there.


The Takatsuki are very dry and precise.  They are strong tubes with good extension on either end, but they lack any impact or weight.  They are exactly what you'd expect from a Japanese tube - clean, precise, and efficient.  My biggest dig on them is they lack 'character'.  If the Elrogs didn't exist, they'd be my #3 picks (Behind the EML and the Kr-Audio Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions).

IMO, YMMV.


----------



## jamato8

ColSaulTigh said:


> The Takatsuki are very dry and precise.  They are strong tubes with good extension on either end, but they lack any impact or weight.  They are exactly what you'd expect from a Japanese tube - clean, precise, and efficient.  My biggest dig on them is they lack 'character'.  If the Elrogs didn't exist, they'd be my #3 picks (Behind the EML and the Kr-Audio Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions).
> 
> IMO, YMMV.


What is your favorite 300B?


----------



## steve468

ColSaulTigh said:


> The Takatsuki are very dry and precise.  They are strong tubes with good extension on either end, but they lack any impact or weight.  They are exactly what you'd expect from a Japanese tube - clean, precise, and efficient.  My biggest dig on them is they lack 'character'.  If the Elrogs didn't exist, they'd be my #3 picks (Behind the EML and the Kr-Audio Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions).
> 
> IMO, YMMV.


Sounds like a good match since nearly all of my headphones are impactful and weighty.

I’m betting these will be a great match with a pair of RCA grey glass. Or maybe Tung-Sols, if I can ever find a pair I can afford. I had my Sylvania VT-231s in to start since I feel they do a good job of waking up the warmer stock TJs, and they added some life here too. 

Any others you would recommend?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

jamato8 said:


> What is your favorite 300B?


Elrog 300B-Mo.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

steve468 said:


> Sounds like a good match since nearly all of my headphones are impactful and weighty.
> 
> I’m betting these will be a great match with a pair of RCA grey glass. Or maybe Tung-Sols, if I can ever find a pair I can afford. I had my Sylvania VT-231s in to start since I feel they do a good job of waking up the warmer stock TJs, and they added some life here too.
> 
> Any others you would recommend?


The Elrog 300B-Mo are the best I've encountered so far.  They're bold, rich, weighty, bright, clean, and sweet.  They're really the perfect tube.  If you want something more "legacy 300B", I mentioned the KR-Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions.  Those are very bold and warm, very impactful.  They lost a little bit on the top end, though.  The Emission Labs 300B (family) are very nice, leaning the opposite way - they have done too end and sparkle, and the mids are very sweet.

I don't dislike the Western Electric, I just don't find anything special about them other than the historical name.  There are other tube that I dislike more.  For example, as nice as the Sophia Princess 274B is, the Royal Princess 300B are so incredibly noisy and microphonic that they're not worth listening to.  They ping like wind chimes for sat least a half hour after start up, and if you so much as twitch in their general direction they pick it up.


----------



## steve468

ColSaulTigh said:


> The Elrog 300B-Mo are the best I've encountered so far.  They're bold, rich, weighty, bright, clean, and sweet.  They're really the perfect tube.  If you want something more "legacy 300B", I mentioned the KR-Audio 300B Riccardo Kron Anniversary Editions.  Those are very bold and warm, very impactful.  They lost a little bit on the top end, though.  The Emission Labs 300B (family) are very nice, leaning the opposite way - they have done too end and sparkle, and the mids are very sweet.
> 
> I don't dislike the Western Electric, I just don't find anything special about them other than the historical name.  There are other tube that I dislike more.  For example, as nice as the Sophia Princess 274B is, the Royal Princess 300B are so incredibly noisy and microphonic that they're not worth listening to.  They ping like wind chimes for sat least a half hour after start up, and if you so much as twitch in their general direction they pick it up.



I actually meant 6sn7s, but I appreciate the comparison. I’ll probably end up with Elrogs at some point - either regular, MO, or some of the rumoured beyond-MO that are supposedly in development.

I’m very curious about the KR-Audio, but I’ve had such bad luck with tubes (also had a bad pair of Psvane 300b) that I’m too scared to order anything not local.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

steve468 said:


> I actually meant 6sn7s, but I appreciate the comparison. I’ll probably end up with Elrogs at some point - either regular, MO, or some of the rumoured beyond-MO that are supposedly in development.
> 
> I’m very curious about the KR-Audio, but I’ve had such bad luck with tubes (also had a bad pair of Psvane 300b) that I’m too scared to order anything not local.


Ah, sorry I misunderstood.

IMO, the best 6SN7'S are not 6SN7 at all (with one exception).  The Melz 1578 are incredibly crisp and clean with plenty of extension on both directions.  Essentially colorless, they're perfect if you want clean and dynamic.  Very pricy and very hard to find unless you know someone who knows someone who's willing to give up their source.

If you want some warmth and sweetness (wetness?), look for some Tung Sol Round Plate Black Glass (RPBG) 6F8G's.  Currently absurdly priced, but worth it for "that sound that just blows you away".  You will need adapters for these.

I'm currently playing with using 2x6J5G's (via an adapter) and have been pleasantly surprised.  Probably a touch warmer than a Melz but with a touch less impact.  Still brilliant on both ends of the spectrum though.  This can probably be tweaked with a different choice of tubes though.  I've just started experimenting, there are others with far better opinions on these than me.

Finally, the best for warmth and a traditional "tube" sound are the classic RCA Grey Glass.  There also creeping up in price but can still be found at a decent price if you look hard enough.  These are dark and smokey, like a classic jazz club.  Lots of bass and depth, and rolled off on top.  These are perfect for jazz, blues, and classic rock.

Others probably have their own favorites (7N7, Sylvania "Bad Boy", etc.), and YMMV.


----------



## jamato8

ColSaulTigh said:


> Ah, sorry I misunderstood.
> 
> IMO, the best 6SN7'S are not 6SN7 at all (with one exception).  The Melz 1578 are incredibly crisp and clean with plenty of extension on both directions.  Essentially colorless, they're perfect if you want clean and dynamic.  Very pricy and very hard to find unless you know someone who knows someone who's willing to give up their source.
> 
> ...


I have some 6F8G but the ones I tried were very microphonic. I do have some black glass. I’ll have to try them. I also have a lot of 6J5 and the adapters so I’ll have to try them just for fun.


----------



## JeffMann

I love the sound quality of my Cayin HA300 amp with its stock tubes. It is the best headphone amplifier that I have ever owned during the 22 years that my audio system has been headphone-based. I empirically purchased the Elrog ER300B tubes based on the many positive comments expressed by forum members, but I much prefer the sound of the stock Genalex Gold Lion tubes. I will probably sell my Elrog ER300B tubes (which have been used for ~100 hours) in the near future.

Jeff.


----------



## Andykong

JeffMann said:


> I love the sound quality of my Cayin HA300 amp with its stock tubes. It is the best headphone amplifier that I have ever owned during the 22 years that my audio system has been headphone-based. I empirically purchased the Elrog ER300B tubes based on the many positive comments expressed by forum members, but I much prefer the sound of the stock Genalex Gold Lion tubes. I will probably sell my Elrog ER300B tubes (which have been used for ~100 hours) in the near future.
> 
> Jeff.


That's a good testimony.  Sorry to know that Elrog didn't work for you.  I hope the fun will cover your lost.

As I mentioned previously, tube rolling is very personal preference biased, so its not a good idea to invest in expensive or NOS tubes before you know how it sounds in your system, with your headphones.  Maybe its better to give some time to the stock tubes, especially when the transformers are breaking in.  When you form your opinion with the tube amplifier and know what improvements you are looking for, tube rol6 will be more efficient and meaningful.


----------



## Erwinatm

JeffMann said:


> I love the sound quality of my Cayin HA300 amp with its stock tubes. It is the best headphone amplifier that I have ever owned during the 22 years that my audio system has been headphone-based. I empirically purchased the Elrog ER300B tubes based on the many positive comments expressed by forum members, but I much prefer the sound of the stock Genalex Gold Lion tubes. I will probably sell my Elrog ER300B tubes (which have been used for ~100 hours) in the near future.
> 
> Jeff.


So do I. Done a little tweak, use TS black plate for the driver, and 2x GE 22DE4 for rectifier. The stock Tungsol 6SN7 are good as well. It is a good combination for Susvara.

I am going to have Audio Note 4300e soon. I will not go down with Elrogs I think. Had bad experience with Elrogs 300B before (old production, don't know if they have improved the new ones).


----------



## Erwinatm

steve468 said:


> I have a tale of woe that I'd like to share with my fellow 300b-ers in here. I had gotten a pair of Western Electrics a few months ago, which very much angered the tube gods. The ominous thunder clap when I picked them up should have told me. A few weeks ago, one of the tubes developed a subtle but unmistakable static - not too bad, but could be heard over music. I thought I'd take advantage of that excellent warranty, and I eventually got a second pair. This pair was straight from the distributor, supposedly fresh from the manufacturer. I put them in and almost blew my left ear off! The left tube was clearly and immediately defective - the VU metre on that side was going crazy, and not long after the fuse blew. Just to be sure it wasn't the amp, I put the stock tubes back in and everything was fine again.
> 
> So did I just have the worst luck, or what? Anyway, I contacted Parts Connexion (who are EXCELLENT to deal with), telling them I was feeling a bit gun-shy about yet another pair of WE300b. It wasn't said directly, but it was heavily implied that Western Electric might be going through some of the growing pains that many other 300b manufacturers do. Western Electric isn't new of course, but their plant is new. Perhaps they don't quite have their new 300b formula down yet.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that. Old WE used to be known for its reliability, long lasting tubes. 

Congrats for your Takatsuki, IMO it is one of the finest 300B.👍


----------



## jamato8

6F8G.  Something that has gotten very expensive. These are found plate but RCA not Tungsol. My Tungsol is somewhere. The next up are some 1940s round plate NOS. Takes about 10 minutes to burn off the gas that has infiltrated into the tube and so far, then they get very quite always as microphonic as hell. But lively and energetic. I also have some Sylvania with the same type of plates as the W series and early 1950s and some others.


----------



## jonathan c

jamato8 said:


> 6F8G.  Something that has gotten very expensive. These are found plate but RCA not Tungsol. My Tungsol is somewhere. The next up are some 1940s round plate NOS. Takes about 10 minutes to burn off the gas that has infiltrated into the tube and so far, then they get very quite always as microphonic as hell. But lively and energetic. I also have some Sylvania with the same type of plates as the W series and early 1950s and some others.


When a tube is as “microphonic as hell”, is its liveliness and energy partly (largely?) due to microphony ? 🤔


----------



## jamato8 (Dec 17, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> When a tube is as “microphonic as hell”, is its liveliness and energy partly (largely?) due to microphony ? 🤔


From years of use, that is what I have found. I prefer a tube with some microphonics. To me, it does not distort the music but enhances it and gives it a live presentation. If the tube is good to begin with, some microphonics, unless in a delicate stage like a phono section.

I forgot I had gotten so many 6J5s in the past. All NOS and some, from 1944 are absolutely crisp in clean boxes. Nice tubes. At least the price on 6J5s hasn't gone up much. I think I paid around 5 dollars each or so but they are good tubes with an adpapter if you have the room but it gets out of hand with them up on the adapter and using 2 for each 6SN7 tube. Kind of a mess.


----------



## YungOmbat

Andykong said:


> *Cayin HA-300MK2
> Transformer Coupled Direct Heated SET Class A Balanced Driven Vacuum Tube Headphone Amplifier*
> 
> The Cayin HA-300MK2 is finally here. The new Cayin flagship vacuum tube headphone amplifier is scheduled to debut at *CanJam Singapore 2022*. Like its predecessor, the HA-300MK2 is a Class A Transformer-coupled headphone and speaker Single-ended Triode Amplifier (SETA). It uses a matched pair 300B Direct Heated Triode as output tube and a matched pair of 6SN7 as driver tube. The tube amplification circuit is operated in Single-ended, that’s why it is referred to as SETA, and then feed to a pair of output transformers for single-ended headphones, XLR-4 and 4.4mm balanced headphone output, and one set of speaker terminals.
> ...


kind of reminds me of the bhse with that dual chassis design thingy


----------



## tinariwen

JeffMann said:


> I love the sound quality of my Cayin HA300 amp with its stock tubes. It is the best headphone amplifier that I have ever owned during the 22 years that my audio system has been headphone-based. I empirically purchased the Elrog ER300B tubes based on the many positive comments expressed by forum members, but I much prefer the sound of the stock Genalex Gold Lion tubes. I will probably sell my Elrog ER300B tubes (which have been used for ~100 hours) in the near future.
> 
> Jeff.


What made you prefer the gold lions to the Elrogs?


----------



## ARCXENOS

jamato8 said:


> From years of use, that is what I have found. I prefer a tube with some microphonics. To me, it does not distort the music but enhances it and gives it a live presentation. If the tube is good to begin with, some microphonics, unless in a delicate stage like a phono section.
> 
> I forgot I had gotten so many 6J5s in the past. All NOS and some, from 1944 are absolutely crisp in clean boxes. Nice tubes. At least the price on 6J5s hasn't gone up much. I think I paid around 5 dollars each or so but they are good tubes with an adpapter if you have the room but it gets out of hand with them up on the adapter and using 2 for each 6SN7 tube. Kind of a mess.



That looks like a whole box of fun


----------



## Wes S (Dec 18, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> Ah, sorry I misunderstood.
> 
> IMO, the best 6SN7'S are not 6SN7 at all (with one exception).  The Melz 1578 are incredibly crisp and clean with plenty of extension on both directions.  Essentially colorless, they're perfect if you want clean and dynamic.  Very pricy and very hard to find unless you know someone who knows someone who's willing to give up their source.
> 
> ...


Interesting, no one ever mentions the RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates with Ceramic Spacers, and I personally think it's one of the best 6SN7 ever made hands down.  The dynamics and detail are incredible, and in the HA300MK2 it doesn't get any better for my preferences.  I listen to a lot of Folk and Bluegrass with some Electronica sprinkled in, and the RFT makes all three genres sound as if it's being performed live right in front of me.  RFT has this amazing ability to throw the stage further/deeper out in front of me, with vocals that are clean clear and present, and bass that slams with PRAT for days.  I think perhaps due to it's limited availability, many have not heard or heard of this tube, but I assure you it's worth the hunt and price of admission if you value speed, detail, dynamics and immediacy with a hint of warmth (life) and don't like the look of adapters.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> Interesting, no one ever mentions the RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates with Ceramic Spacers, and I personally think it's one of the best 6SN7 ever made hands down.  The dynamics and detail are incredible, and in the HA300MK2 it doesn't get any better for my preferences.  I listen to a lot of Folk and Bluegrass with some Electronica sprinkled in, and the RFT makes all three genres sound as if it's being performed live right in front of me.  I think perhaps due to it's *limited availability*, many have not heard or heard of this tube, but I assure you it's worth the hunt and price of admission if you value speed, detail and dynamics and don't like the look of adapters.



And price + there being a couple variants that I am not sure of are my reasons   

I think I have also come to accept that I don't really seek the "best" sound, I just love experiencing the changes each tube brings. It only just so happens I love UK valves abit more. 

Maybe I just have an addiction.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 18, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> And price + there being a couple variants that I am not sure of are my reasons
> 
> I think I have also come to accept that I don't really seek the "best" sound, I just love experiencing the changes each tube brings. It only just so happens I love UK valves abit more.
> 
> Maybe I just have an addiction.


I did the same thing for years, and while experiencing the changes different tubes bring was fun, there is always one or two that rise above the pack and end up getting all the listening time in the end with me.  The other "lesser" tubes always start collecting dust and eventually get sold.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Wes S said:


> I did the same thing for years, and while experiencing the changes different tubes bring was fun, there is always one or two that rise above the pack and end up getting all the listening time in the end with me.  The other "lesser" tubes always start collecting dust and eventually get sold.


That does sound awfully familiar to me


----------



## steve468

One thing I will say about the Takatsukis is the build quality is noticeably better than the WE300b. They feel more solid overall, but it’s especially clear in the pins. The Tak’s pins are smooth, perfectly rounded at the tips, and straight as an arrow. The WE’s pins looked like 50’s Russian tubes that had been sitting in a warehouse for decades. I was afraid I’d have to pull out the iron for some re-soldering!


----------



## dnd3241

Andykong said:


> That's a good testimony.  Sorry to know that Elrog didn't work for you.  I hope the fun will cover your lost.
> 
> As I mentioned previously, tube rolling is very personal preference biased, so its not a good idea to invest in expensive or NOS tubes before you know how it sounds in your system, with your headphones.  Maybe its better to give some time to the stock tubes, especially when the transformers are breaking in.  When you form your opinion with the tube amplifier and know what improvements you are looking for, tube rol6 will be more efficient and meaningful.


Andy..how many hours needs to break in the transformers ?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Wes S said:


> Interesting, no one ever mentions the RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates with Ceramic Spacers, and I personally think it's one of the best 6SN7 ever made hands down.  The dynamics and detail are incredible, and in the HA300MK2 it doesn't get any better for my preferences.  I listen to a lot of Folk and Bluegrass with some Electronica sprinkled in, and the RFT makes all three genres sound as if it's being performed live right in front of me.  RFT has this amazing ability to throw the stage further/deeper out in front of me, with vocals that are clean clear and present, and bass that slams with PRAT for days.  I think perhaps due to it's limited availability, many have not heard or heard of this tube, but I assure you it's worth the hunt and price of admission if you value speed, detail, dynamics and immediacy with a hint of warmth (life) and don't like the look of adapters.


I've been looking for them, but so far the only ones I've found are from dubious sources in Vietnam.  Also, at close to $700/pair, I want to ensure they're 100% legit.

If you've got a respected source, please let me know.


----------



## ARCXENOS

I would definitely be interested if there is a verified source too


----------



## incredulousity (Dec 18, 2022)

Wes S said:


> Interesting, no one ever mentions the RFT 6SN7 Welded Plates with Ceramic Spacers, and I personally think it's one of the best 6SN7 ever made hands down.  The dynamics and detail are incredible, and in the HA300MK2 it doesn't get any better for my preferences.  I listen to a lot of Folk and Bluegrass with some Electronica sprinkled in, and the RFT makes all three genres sound as if it's being performed live right in front of me.  RFT has this amazing ability to throw the stage further/deeper out in front of me, with vocals that are clean clear and present, and bass that slams with PRAT for days.  I think perhaps due to it's limited availability, many have not heard or heard of this tube, but I assure you it's worth the hunt and price of admission if you value speed, detail, dynamics and immediacy with a hint of warmth (life) and don't like the look of adapters.


I actually want them. But they are impossible to find now, in appropriate condition and matched. Definitely would appreciate a good source for these.


----------



## JeffMann

tinariwen said:


> What made you prefer the gold lions to the Elrogs?


In my personal audio system (see attached jpg image) I am presently using the Jays Audio CD2T2MK3 CD Transport => Denafrips Pontus II DAC => Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier => Susvara headphone - and I find the sound to be smoother, and more evenly full-bodied with the stock Genalex Gold Lion 300B tubes. When I use the Elrog ER300B tubes, the sound is brighter and more boldly assertive and it reminds me more of the sound produced when I use any of my SS headphone amplifiers. I personally prefer a warmer, smoother and more full-bodied sound.

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> In my personal audio system (see attached jpg image) I am presently using the Jays Audio CD2T2MK3 CD Transport => Denafrips Pontus II DAC => Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier => Susvara headphone - and I find the sound to be smoother, and more evenly full-bodied with the stock Genalex Gold Lion 300B tubes. When I use the Elrog ER300B tubes, the sound is brighter and more boldly assertive and it reminds me more of the sound produced when I use any of my SS headphone amplifiers. I personally prefer a warmer, smoother and more full-bodied sound.
> 
> Jeff.


Then I would use a different driver tube.


----------



## incredulousity (Dec 18, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> In my personal audio system (see attached jpg image) I am presently using the Jays Audio CD2T2MK3 CD Transport => Denafrips Pontus II DAC => Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier => Susvara headphone - and I find the sound to be smoother, and more evenly full-bodied with the stock Genalex Gold Lion 300B tubes. When I use the Elrog ER300B tubes, the sound is brighter and more boldly assertive and it reminds me more of the sound produced when I use any of my SS headphone amplifiers. I personally prefer a warmer, smoother and more full-bodied sound.
> 
> Jeff.


Yes. If you don’t experience sufficient toobiness with the Elrog ER300B, might I suggest AN4300E? Better bass and treble extension than the GL, more detailed, but wetter than the Elrog tubes. My third favorite, actually, after Elrogs. I actually appreciate and enjoy the subtle toobiness of the Elrogs, juxtaposed with the equally top-flight SS Holo Bliss.  

On the plus side, You will definitely not like the Elrog Mo, and can save yourself that expense. Easy to sell your ER300B in a few hours.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 19, 2022)

ColSaulTigh said:


> I've been looking for them, but so far the only ones I've found are from dubious sources in Vietnam.  Also, at close to $700/pair, I want to ensure they're 100% legit.
> 
> If you've got a respected source, please let me know.


Unfortunately, my source that was selling them for around $350 a pair a couple of months ago is all out of them.  Those prices from the dealer in Vietnam are insane, but are also legit tubes.  Of note, there are a couple versions and the earlier version with dual foil cup getters and spot welded plates has the magic, and the latter version with a single foil disc getter and stapled/crimped plates is nothing special.

This is the version below to avoid, and is a well balanced tube but lacks the dynamics and slam of the earlier dual getter and is nothing special.  Notice the single foil disc getter and stapled/crimped plates.










This is the version to look for below, and has the magic.  This version has dual foil cup getters and spot welded plates.





I also have a third version that has spot welded plates and dual cup getters but has mica spacers instead of the ceramic spacers and it sounds the same as the one with ceramic spacers.

So, what you want to look for is the spot welded plates and dual foil cup getters, if you want the best sounding example of this tube.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 19, 2022)

jamato8 said:


> Then I would use a different driver tube.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> This is the version to look for below, and has the magic.  This version has dual foil cup getters and spot welded plates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I bet the sound must be really bombing 



Spoiler



because the top looks like an ied



Very cool looking, thanks for sharing


----------



## Alenotta

incredulousity said:


> Yes. If you don’t experience sufficient toobiness with the Elrog ER300B, might I suggest AN4300E? Better bass and treble extension than the GL, more detailed, but wetter than the Elrog tubes. My third favorite, actually, after Elrogs. I actually appreciate and enjoy the subtle toobiness of the Elrogs, juxtaposed with the equally top-flight SS Holo Bliss.
> 
> On the plus side, You will definitely not like the Elrog Mo, and can save yourself that expense. Easy to sell your ER300B in a few hours.


Has anyone tried the Elrog against the Western Electric 300b? I'm still using the Gold Lions which I honestly like a lot not knowing what I'm missing haha.


----------



## Alenotta

JeffMann said:


> I love the sound quality of my Cayin HA300 amp with its stock tubes. It is the best headphone amplifier that I have ever owned during the 22 years that my audio system has been headphone-based. I empirically purchased the Elrog ER300B tubes based on the many positive comments expressed by forum members, but I much prefer the sound of the stock Genalex Gold Lion tubes. I will probably sell my Elrog ER300B tubes (which have been used for ~100 hours) in the near future.
> 
> Jeff.


Did you find the Elrog to be less meaty? I'm really interested in getting them based on the glowing reviews, but I love a lot of heft in the mid bass area and I'm worried because I noticed some people say they have a bit more of a SS type of detailed sound. I'm more into the rich euphonic tube vibe.


----------



## JeffMann

Alenotta said:


> Did you find the Elrog to be less meaty? I'm really interested in getting them based on the glowing reviews, but I love a lot of heft in the mid bass area and I'm worried because I noticed some people say they have a bit more of a SS type of detailed sound. I'm more into the rich euphonic tube vibe.


The Elrog is definitely less meaty in the midbass region in my headphone-based audio system. I listen to a lot of opera and baritone/bass voices are too lean and too similar in musical tone/timbre to that of a tenor voice. However, the Elrog excels in terms of transient speed, micro-detail information retrieval, minimizing congestion/smearing in loud muscial passages where a number of instruments/voices are simultaneously playing, and in 3D imaging. 

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> The Elrog is definitely less meaty in the midbass region in my headphone-based audio system. I listen to a lot of opera and baritone/bass voices are too lean and too similar in musical tone/timbre to that of a tenor voice. However, the Elrog excels in terms of transient speed, micro-detail information retrieval, minimizing congestion/smearing in loud muscial passages where a number of instruments/voices are simultaneously playing, and in 3D imaging.
> 
> Jeff.


I found the ER300B to mold to the quality of the driver tube. That can be frustrating and it changes to the quality of that driver from excellent, more full sounding, too warm and so on. Very picky, IMO, almost too much but getting the combination right is worth it. Most driver tubes, NOS etc., are not up to the task.


----------



## incredulousity

jamato8 said:


> I found the ER300B to mold to the quality of the driver tube. That can be frustrating and it changes to the quality of that driver from excellent, more full sounding, too warm and so on. Very picky, IMO, almost too much but getting the combination right is worth it. Most driver tubes, NOS etc., are not up to the task.


It is the same with Mo, but Mo is even less forgiving of inferior driver tubes. This is why I recommend that most people start with ER. If you like it, and don’t want any more clarity, you’re done.


----------



## JeffMann

jamato8 said:


> I found the ER300B to mold to the quality of the driver tube. That can be frustrating and it changes to the quality of that driver from excellent, more full sounding, too warm and so on. Very picky, IMO, almost too much but getting the combination right is worth it. Most driver tubes, NOS etc., are not up to the task.


How do I mold the sound quality output of my ER300B tubes towards a warmer, more full-bodied sound by using a different 6sn7 driver tube - while retaining the ER300B tubes' amazing qualities in terms of transient speed, resolving power, macrodynamics and 3D imaging?

Do you have a recommendation as to which 6sn7 tubes would likely be synergistically helpful?

Are you willing to lend me a pair of 6sn7 tubes to audition for a few weeks? I would be willing to pay a rental fee if necessary.

Jeff.


----------



## paradoxper

JeffMann said:


> How do I mold the sound quality output of my ER300B tubes towards a warmer, more full-bodied sound by using a different 6sn7 driver tube - while retaining the ER300B tubes' amazing qualities in terms of transient speed, resolving power, macrodynamics and 3D imaging?
> 
> Do you have a recommendation as to which 6sn7 tubes would likely be synergistically helpful?
> 
> ...


What is your current driver tube? I'd try MELZ or RFT to keep things streamlined, RCA grey glass impart a nice amount of bloom and don't retain the same amazing extension at both ends such as MELZ.

If then, you actually crave more warmth, I'd point you to the WE300B.

But IIRC you've only started with the stock tubes, which means your variable reference are small to start.


----------



## incredulousity

He said more warmth. Linlai Elite.

But Elrog may just not be for you.

May the Elrog gods have mercy on you.


----------



## JeffMann

paradoxper said:


> What is your current driver tube? I'd try MELZ or RFT to keep things streamlined, RCA grey glass impart a nice amount of bloom and don't retain the same amazing extension at both ends such as MELZ.
> 
> If then, you actually crave more warmth, I'd point you to the WE300B.
> 
> But IIRC you've only started with the stock tubes, which means your variable reference are small to start.


Thank you for expressing your opinion, but I cannot understand the usefulness of your advice.

I only have one set of 6sn7 tubes, which is the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes supplied when I purchased my Cayin HA300Mk2 amplifier.

Your advice about purchasing Melz or RFT 6sn7 tubes does not seem to be useful advice. First of all, I have no experience knowing from where to purchase NOS 6sn7 tubes in general. Secondly, those particular 6sn7 tubes are apparently very difficult to find - even for experienced tube rollers - and they probably cost a fortune. Even if I happen to locate those hard-to-find tubes, how do I know if they are really non-used with a long-life expectancy and how would I know that they are noise-free? Then, what happens if I do not find that they sound good in my audio system - I strongly suspect that I will not be able to return them.

I am hoping that there are tube rollers in this forum who would be willing to loan me a pair of NOS 6sn7 tubes to audition and who would then be willing to sell me those tubes if I like their sound.

In the absence of that type of help, I may just be obliged to gamble and purchase new-production alternatives to the new-production Tungsol 6sn7 tubes eg. the new-production Linlai Elite 6sn7 tubes sold by Rachel of Premium Vacuum Tubes Inc.

Jeff.


----------



## paradoxper

JeffMann said:


> Thank you for expressing your opinion, but I cannot understand the usefulness of your advice.
> 
> I only have one set of 6sn7 tubes, which is the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes supplied when I purchased my Cayin HA300Mk2 amplifier.
> 
> ...


Go with the new production Elite. They are terrible. There are numerous 6SN7 threads, multiple sources citing from member to member about viable places to buy from.

Good luck.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> Thank you for expressing your opinion, but I cannot understand the usefulness of your advice.
> 
> I only have one set of 6sn7 tubes, which is the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes supplied when I purchased my Cayin HA300Mk2 amplifier.
> 
> ...


You don't know if they are used unless from a good reliable seller and eBay isn't a great place to buy tubes. I have tube testers but even with that, a tube can be used and test new and can lose some of the edge that makes it really good.

Things are getting tougher as we get further and further from NOS tubes with many being 60 years more old. I have 10 NOS Sylvania 1951 but they aren't warm and pretty neutral. The grey glass tubes are warmer but I can't stand the sound. Too thick and lacking in detail, IMO. 

The Mullards that are new made that came with the amp are warmer. 

Not much help in what I have said. and the prices are getting horrible. And tubes always eventually wear out.


----------



## JeffMann

paradoxper said:


> Go with the new production Elite. They are terrible. There are numerous 6SN7 threads, multiple sources citing from member to member about viable places to buy from.
> 
> Good luck.


I have spent 50 - 100 hours reading all the numerous 6sn7 threads. I found that there were only a few tube sources mentioned eg. Tube Depot, Tube World Express, Vintage Tube Services, AudioTubes.com (Brent Jessee), but they either have very few NOS 6sn7 tubes at present, or their selection choice recommendations are too confusing for a neophyte tube roller like me. Many people also seem to have purchased NOS 6sn7 tubes from e-bay sellers, but that seems to be a potential nightmare because many ebay sellers apparently cannot be trusted (based on many comments made in those threads).  

Thank you for wishing me "good luck" - I may need it if I hope to find a 6sn7 tube choice to complement the Elrog ER300B tubes!

Jeff.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> What is your current driver tube? I'd try MELZ or RFT to keep things streamlined, RCA grey glass impart a nice amount of bloom and don't retain the same amazing extension at both ends such as MELZ.
> 
> If then, you actually crave more warmth, I'd point you to the WE300B.
> 
> But IIRC you've only started with the stock tubes, which means your variable reference are small to start.


All very good recommendations.  I have no experience with the RFT's, but the Melz are incredibly detailed with excellent extension at both ends.  One tube I would add to this group are the Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate (BGRP) 6F8G's (with adapters).  These add a certain amount of warmth and wetness to the sound.  Probably my favorite overall driver for a 6SN7-based driver amplifier.  This is my opinion, YMMV.



incredulousity said:


> He said more warmth. Linlai Elite.
> 
> But Elrog may just not be for you.
> 
> May the Elrog gods have mercy on you.


No experience with the Linlai, but I can tell you the Elrogs (specifically the ER300B-Mo) have NO issues with deep, rich bass.  IMO, they add weight without becoming bloated and slow.  Bass is very impactful.



JeffMann said:


> Thank you for expressing your opinion, but I cannot understand the usefulness of your advice.
> 
> I only have one set of 6sn7 tubes, which is the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes supplied when I purchased my Cayin HA300Mk2 amplifier.
> 
> ...


I don't understand why you find this advice not helpful.  @paradoxper gave you several excellent suggestions for driver tubes to match up to your Elrog (or other) power tubes.  Yes, they can be pricey.  Yes, they can be hard to find.  But you literally have a wealth of information here at your fingertips to help guide you in the right direction.  MANY users in here have been steered towards quality, legit tube sellers thanks to the experience of many members of these forums who are happy to help you.  If you make some friends in here, you may very well find someone willing to loan you tubes to try (especially if they are fairly close to where you live).

With regard to NOS vs. new production tubes, I don't know of too many tubes that really give you the same sound quality or signature of a NOS tube.  Don't discount something just because it's 80 years old....


----------



## incredulousity (Dec 20, 2022)

I have to agree about NOS. Go there if you can afford the game. Of current production, Quad KT88 with adapters and external power is my current second favorite, after Melz 1578.


----------



## Alenotta

JeffMann said:


> I have spent 50 - 100 hours reading all the numerous 6sn7 threads. I found that there were only a few tube sources mentioned eg. Tube Depot, Tube World Express, Vintage Tube Services, AudioTubes.com (Brent Jessee), but they either have very few NOS 6sn7 tubes at present, or their selection choice recommendations are too confusing for a neophyte tube roller like me. Many people also seem to have purchased NOS 6sn7 tubes from e-bay sellers, but that seems to be a potential nightmare because many ebay sellers apparently cannot be trusted (based on many comments made in those threads).
> 
> Thank you for wishing me "good luck" - I may need it if I hope to find a 6sn7 tube choice to complement the Elrog ER300B tubes!
> 
> Jeff.


You can also get cheap 12AU7 adapters that open up a ton of cheaper options for NOS


----------



## jamato8

Alenotta said:


> You can also get cheap 12AU7 adapters that open up a ton of cheaper options for NOS


A 6085 could then be used, which is a nice tube.


----------



## Alenotta

jamato8 said:


> A 6085 could then be used, which is a nice tube.


Oh no you've opened another door... Yes apparently they make an E80CC to 6sN7 adapter. I see it on ebay.


----------



## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> He said more warmth. Linlai Elite.
> 
> But Elrog may just not be for you.
> 
> May the Elrog gods have mercy on you.


Do you have the Linlai?
If so how do they sound?

Can you compare them to Fullmusic or Western Electric?


----------



## ThanatosVI

Alenotta said:


> You can also get cheap 12AU7 adapters that open up a ton of cheaper options for NOS


If you have some info about high quality 12au7, I'd appreciate the input


----------



## Wes S

ThanatosVI said:


> If you have some info about high quality 12au7, I'd appreciate the input


Check out the Pendant thread for tons of info on the better 12AU7's. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/zmf...lling-and-general-discussions.939249/page-124


----------



## ARCXENOS

Mystery Lindals arrived...And as expected, japanese rebrands




I was actually given 3 types, 2 silver plate, 2 bronze / copper / (?) / brown plate aka the same make as raytheon's, and the black plate that a few posters talked about before




Comparison of the silver plate vs raytheon






Mr black plate







Glow of silver vs browncopperbronze





Short 30 minute impression, the bass with the composite silver + bronze set is actually not as deep and pronounced as the full raytheon set, but I perceived a larger stage with it.

Likewise, it sounds bassier than stock RCA / GE I have, I guess the easiest way to describe is in a scale : harder bass = raytheon, smoothness = RCA/GE and the composite is somewhere in between

Not sure what I am gonna do with the single black plate, I guess I can give it to a local ha3a owner.....or my 22de4 journey has not ended and I need to hunt down another.

P.S. USPS still haven't sent me the sylvanias!!


----------



## Wes S (Dec 21, 2022)

ARCXENOS said:


> Mystery Lindals arrived...And as expected, japanese rebrands
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! Those front two (silver) are G.E. and the back two are Japan made gems.  Also, I am running some Japanese black plates and I would hold on to that one and look for another if I was you.

Also, I too am running two different brands with one pair in front and a different pair in back and I have found I prefer blending brands.  Currently, I have Sicte in the back two slots and the Japanese black plates in the front two, and the sound is amazing.  Also, you can switch up the sound a bit more depending on which ones are in front and which are in the back slots.  I tend to use the taller tubes in the back slots and shorter ones in front for aesthetic reasons, but the sound does change a bit if you switch this around.  Being able to roll 2 pairs of rectifiers and blend different house sounds, really lets you dial in the sound big time.  The amount of different presentations you can get by tube rolling with this amp is amazing.

I definitely recommend rolling and blending rectifiers with this amp.

Happy Rolling and Listening.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Wes S said:


> Nice! Those front two (silver) are G.E. and the back two are Japan made gems.  Also, I am running some Japanese black plates and I would hold on to that one and look for another if I was you.
> 
> Also, I too am running two different brands with one pair in front and a different pair in back and I have found I prefer blending brands.  Currently, I have Sicte in the back two slots and the Japanese black plates in the front two, and the sound is amazing.
> 
> ...



You are right, I took out my GEs and lo and behold, very very similar construction, only discernable difference is the base!

I guess the impression makes sense afterall, it literally is a composite in the middle 

And will do, I will find the black plate someday hopefully. I think the raytheons proved to me that there can be a difference from rectifiers. 

I am now left wondering if sylvanias did indeed make their own, or are those more GEs too


----------



## incredulousity

ThanatosVI said:


> Do you have the Linlai?
> If so how do they sound?
> 
> Can you compare them to Fullmusic or Western Electric?


Linlai 6SN7. Not the 300B


----------



## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> Linlai 6SN7. Not the 300B


in that case, how do they compare to the Stock PSVane?
Warmer? 
Clearer?


----------



## incredulousity

Warmer and less clear. They are quite pleasant, but I find them a step down from PSVane. I find the PSVane to be the most SS sounding driver. I like it with Elrog ER and AN4300E better than with Elrog Mo. I don’t have WE yet. 

For variety I’m exploring 6SN7 alternatives now. Are 12AU7 needing 6 or 12V on Envy? Any one know?


----------



## jamato8

incredulousity said:


> Warmer and less clear. They are quite pleasant, but I find them a step down from PSVane. I find the PSVane to be the most SS sounding driver. I like it with Elrog ER and AN4300E better than with Elrog Mo. I don’t have WE yet.
> 
> For variety I’m exploring 6SN7 alternatives now. Are 12AU7 needing 6 or 12V on Envy? Any one know?


If it is made to spec, it should be 6 and 12 volt but their site should tell the story.


----------



## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> Warmer and less clear. They are quite pleasant, but I find them a step down from PSVane. I find the PSVane to be the most SS sounding driver. I like it with Elrog ER and AN4300E better than with Elrog Mo. I don’t have WE yet.
> 
> For variety I’m exploring 6SN7 alternatives now. Are 12AU7 needing 6 or 12V on Envy? Any one know?


12au7 always needs 12V

12SN7 can run on 6 or 12

I imagine the Linlai might pair well with Elrog to add back some warmth. I'll add it to my list


----------



## jamato8

ThanatosVI said:


> 12au7 always needs 12V
> 
> 12SN7 can run on 6 or 12
> 
> I imagine the Linlai might pair well with Elrog to add back some warmth. I'll add it to my list


You have it backwards. Most likely a typo. A 12SN7 has to have the 12.6 filament voltage and a 12AU7 is wired for 6.3 volts or 12.6 volts, depending upon which pins are used.


----------



## ThanatosVI

jamato8 said:


> You have it backwards. Most likely a typo. A 12SN7 has to have the 12.6 filament voltage and a 12AU7 is wired for 6.3 volts or 12.6 volts, depending upon which pins are used.


I stand corrected.
"The 12AU7 is 6V when pin 4 and 5 are connected together and the other part of the heater is connected to pin 9."


----------



## ARCXENOS

ARCXENOS said:


> I am now left wondering if sylvanias did indeed make their own, or are those more GEs too



Just whine about shipping and suddenly the package arrives, if only it works everytime...

Bought from Surplus Sale of Nebreska, as found by @JeffMann , they pack the tubes too well. 

Specifically asked them for a quad (but they have their upcharge!!), and they were nice enough to not throwaway the binderfolderboxthing.

I am very pleased that they aren't the coin base ones found on ebay




Construction don't look entirely the same to me, which I am glad I don't have a quad of GEs again, unless @Wes S tells me its just GE with stamped out parts 











Only got a short listening session before I had to leave, the updated scale from yesterday is something like

<Harder Bass> Raytheon, Raytheon-GE composite, Sylvania, GE <Smoother>

I would say the Sylvanias is definitely closer in tonality to the GEs than the Raytheons, I guess the difference in American vs Japanese construction methods / parts played a huge part. Purely conjecture of course. 

I feel like the rectifiers mostly changes bass presentation and staging, I still think Driver + Power rolling should be done first, but its definitely worth rolling rectifiers at some point.


----------



## Alenotta

ARCXENOS said:


> Just whine about shipping and suddenly the package arrives, if only it works everytime...
> 
> Bought from Surplus Sale of Nebreska, as found by @JeffMann , they pack the tubes too well.
> 
> ...


Yeah in changing from the RCA to the GE from Surplus I mostly noticed the bass. It isn't a quantum shift either. I think it is definitely the last tube in the chain for significance of impact. I've thoroughly burnt in the GE now so I should go back to the RCA as see if I notice it. Hard to A/B when you have to swap 4 tubes and try to keep your memory fresh.


----------



## ARCXENOS

Alenotta said:


> Yeah in changing from the RCA to the GE from Surplus I mostly noticed the bass. It isn't a quantum shift either. I think it is definitely the last tube in the chain for significance of impact. I've thoroughly burnt in the GE now so I should go back to the RCA as see if I notice it. Hard to A/B when you have to swap 4 tubes and try to keep your memory fresh.


In my opinion, RCA vs GE were the ones that didn't make a whole lot of difference, but hopefully you will get to try the Raytheons, as I feel that the difference is big enough


----------



## Alenotta

ARCXENOS said:


> In my opinion, RCA vs GE were the ones that didn't make a whole lot of difference, but hopefully you will get to try the Raytheons, as I feel that the difference is big enough


I have to check if I got any of those from surplus in my misc order. Maybe I can mix one in and see what it does.


----------



## JeffMann

I have an intellectual question about the cause of noise in a 6sn7 tube.

I have owned my Cayin HA300BMK2 amp for about 7 weeks and it was dead silent until recently when I started to hear a soft scratchy/spluttering/staticky noise in the one channel.  I worked out that it was due to a faulty Tungsol 6sn7 tube because it shifted to the other channel when I swopped the 6sn7 tubes over. 

The noise is at a low level, but clearly evident during soft musical passages so it is very disturbing to me. The noise is present during the startup period when the volume control's LED light is blinking and even when music is not being played. Turning the volume control up does not increase the volume of the noise. Interestingly, the noise sometimes disappears for a few hours and then returns. 

I am intellectually curious about what is likely causing this type of noise in a 6sn7 tube, and I also want to know why it would be an intermittent problem rather than a non-stop/continuous problem once the fault initially starts to happen.  

Jeff.

p.s. By the way, I am forced to tolerate the noise problem at present because I do not own any replacement 6sn7 tubes. I plan to order another set of Tungsol 6sn7 tubes after the Christmas holidays. I would be willing choose another brand of 6sn7 tubes if I knew that they would produce a better sound quality and/or a lesser likelihood of developing a noise problem, but I don't know which other brand to choose.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

JeffMann said:


> I have an intellectual question about the cause of noise in a 6sn7 tube.
> 
> I have owned my Cayin HA300BMK2 amp for about 7 weeks and it was dead silent until recently when I started to hear a soft scratchy/spluttering/staticky noise in the one channel.  I worked out that it was due to a faulty Tungsol 6sn7 tube because it shifted to the other channel when I swopped the 6sn7 tubes over.
> 
> ...


Your tube is failing, most likely due to a bad solder of one (or more) of the pins.  The current production Tung Sols are made in Russia, and as such, suffer from quality control issues.  The noise is most likely (but not definitely) due to either a bad solder or a bad filament.  As the tube heats up, heat causes metal to expand ever so slightly.  When two metals of different types are joined (soldered) they will expand at differing rates.  This can cause poor connections and thus the noise you're hearing.  A simple fix may be to reflow the solder in the pins of the defective tube.   Failing that, replace the tube.

As for replacement tubes - welcome to the wonderful world of tube rolling.  We've discussed this in previous threads, so I won't rehash information.  But you have a world of choices out there.  A little reading of the Reference 6SN7 thread should get you started.


----------



## EagleKent

JeffMann said:


> I have an intellectual question about the cause of noise in a 6sn7 tube.
> 
> I have owned my Cayin HA300BMK2 amp for about 7 weeks and it was dead silent until recently when I started to hear a soft scratchy/spluttering/staticky noise in the one channel.  I worked out that it was due to a faulty Tungsol 6sn7 tube because it shifted to the other channel when I swopped the 6sn7 tubes over.
> 
> ...


I have my fair share of noisy 6SN7 tubes (used and even the new stock Tung Sol from Cayin). From my hours of reading through forum comments, I deduced that most if not all 6SN7 tubes are microphonic to some degree, which is basically the tube picking up noise/vibrations and starting to make intermittent noises.  In my case, it starts as a bell-like ringing sound then buzzing every now and then.  But I had an epiphany lately.  I bought some used tubes from a reputable seller that were tested for low noise but they made the same ringing sound followed by intermittent buzzing after a while when I first tried them.  I immediately thought the tubes have gone microphonic during transit and requested a return.  The seller convinced me to try again and this time it was quiet.  I was really baffled but then realized I forgot to turn on my cooling fan which was near the Cayin tube amp.  I moved the Cayin further away from the fan and tested the tubes again.  Lo and behold, no ringing and no buzzing!  So the tubes seem to pick up nearby vibration (of the fan)/noise easier than the stock Tung Sol tubes I was using.  I have since switched the cooling fans to push air instead of pulling air so it works even with the tube amp further away.  Now I am enjoying quiet tubes   YMMV depending on your set-up.


----------



## JeffMann

ColSaulTigh said:


> Your tube is failing, most likely due to a bad solder of one (or more) of the pins.  The current production Tung Sols are made in Russia, and as such, suffer from quality control issues.  The noise is most likely (but not definitely) due to either a bad solder or a bad filament.  As the tube heats up, heat causes metal to expand ever so slightly.  When two metals of different types are joined (soldered) they will expand at differing rates.  This can cause poor connections and thus the noise you're hearing.  A simple fix may be to reflow the solder in the pins of the defective tube.   Failing that, replace the tube.
> 
> As for replacement tubes - welcome to the wonderful world of tube rolling.  We've discussed this in previous threads, so I won't rehash information.  But you have a world of choices out there.  A little reading of the Reference 6SN7 thread should get you started.


If I can hear the noise within a few seconds of turning on the amp, does that suggest that the cause is unlikely to be due to two metals expanding at different rates and more likely to be a reflection of a filament problem.

You wrote-: "_A little reading of the Reference 6SN7 thread should get you started_."

I have read that entire ~490+ page thread *twice* and I am more confused now as a result of all that intensive study. There are so many potential NOS 6sn7 tube choices that I cannot fathom how to make an informed decision. I realize that the Melz 1578 tube (which you favor) received widespread praise, but it is very difficult to find and its price is probably between $500 - 1,000 for a matched pair. That's way out of my price range (presuming that I can learm how to avoid purchasing fake versions).

Consider other options. I admire the Elrog ER300B tubes clarity, but I would like to have a slightly warmer sound in the midbass and lower midrange region. A widely recommended warm sounding 6sn7 tube is the RCA smoked glass versions from the 1940s. However, certain forum members claim that it would muddy the sound and I don't want to choose any 6sn7 tube that would decrease the clarity of the Elrog ER300B tubes sound.

Then, let's consider what's actually presently available at Brent Jessee's website at https://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm

I could potentially choose to buy the JAN MILITARY 5692 RCA redbase premium industrial 6SN7GT tubes at $400 for a matched pair.

OR 

I could potentially choose to purchase the 6SN7WGT brownbase JAN Tung Sol Military grade, black triangular plates tubes at $300 for a matched pair.

OR

I could potentially choose to purchase the 6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN Ken Rad,  blackplates, blackglass tubes at $300 for a matched pair.

OR

I could potentially choose to purchase the VT-231 JAN Raytheon military 6SN7GT,  blackplate clearglass with orange label and extra support rods, medium glass envelope tubes at $280 for a matched pair

OR

I could potentially purchase the CHS-6SN7WGT brownbase JAN Sylvania, military 3 rivet hole "Bad Boy" blackplate clearglass, "chrome dome", short glass envelope tubes at $299 for a matched pair.

How can I know which of those choices would be the best match for the Elrog ER300B tubes in my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier?

Making the matter-of-choosing NOS 6sn7 tubes more complex, could I get a similar sound quality by purchasing one of his cheaper NOS 6sn7 tubes.

So, I could potentially purchase the 6SN7GT/GTA  Sylvania early green label, triangular blackplate clearglass, bottom getter, medium glass envelope, *"Bad Boy"* type tubes at $160 for a matched pair.

OR even choose a cheaper NOS 6sn7 tube

So, I could potentially purchase the 6SN7GT / or early GTA type,  Sylvania Triangular Plates, Sylvania green or yellow label, early 1950s, heavy top getter (chrome top) tubes for $119 for a matched pair (which is not more expensive than purchasing a replacement pair of the new production Tungsol 6sn7GB tubes that are the stock tubes in my Cayin HA300MK2 amp).

How can a neophyte tube roller like me know which of those choices is the best choice with respect to my personal sound quality requirements?

Jeff.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 22, 2022)

JeffMann said:


> If I can hear the noise within a few seconds of turning on the amp, does that suggest that the cause is unlikely to be due to two metals expanding at different rates and more likely to be a reflection of a filament problem.
> 
> You wrote-: "_A little reading of the Reference 6SN7 thread should get you started_."
> 
> ...


Buy some tubes and listen to them, and then you will know what you prefer, and then sell the one's you don't.   No one but you can decide what you like.  The RCA Grey Glass are warm leaning tubes, and if you put the Elrog's in with them, they could balance each other out perhaps to your preferences, but again the only way to know is to try them.  There are no short cuts when it comes to tube rolling, and all anyone can do is make suggestions, but in the end you have to try a few and decide for yourself.  I know it sucks spending big bucks taking a gamble on tubes that you might not like, but that's just part of the sacrifice one has to make for the amazing sounds good tubes can bring.  I am a firm believer that every amp has that "Goldilocks" tube that just takes things to another level and finding that tube is part of the journey. Once you find that magical synergy, it's all worth it in the end.

I wouldn't go with any of the tubes you listed that Brent has, and suggest the RCA Grey Glass 6SN7 paired up with the Elrog's.  Sylvania and Raytheon are not warm tubes, and Kend-Rad are warm with bass bloom, forward upper mids and a rolled top end.  So, the Ken-Rad might work or might not.  The RCA Grey Glass are the warmest yet still balanced top to bottom, and are my number one rec, but again you won't know until you try them.  

Lastly, new production tubes are notorious for being noisy and don't last nearly as long as some of the better made NOS or OS tubes, so I would stay with NOS or OS if I were you.


----------



## steve468

JeffMann said:


> If I can hear the noise within a few seconds of turning on the amp, does that suggest that the cause is unlikely to be due to two metals expanding at different rates and more likely to be a reflection of a filament problem.
> 
> You wrote-: "_A little reading of the Reference 6SN7 thread should get you started_."
> 
> ...


Looks like you understand tube rolling perfectly. It's just that some of us nutters ENJOY this process. Crazy, right?

My personal tip - don't but the advertising hype. Sellers often throw labels on tubes to boost their price. For example, there's only one very specific tube that is a Sylvania Bad Boy. If you've read the 6SN7 thread, you know it. If you've done your research, that's a great first step to not being scammed.

I'm also of the personal belief that there are no "best" tubes. At least from say the 1950s and earlier (after that quality is spotty IMO). You may develop favourites, but they may not be what everyone else likes.They all offer different flavours. I like having options. But maybe I'm alone in that opinion.


----------



## Wes S

steve468 said:


> Looks like you understand tube rolling perfectly. It's just that some of us nutters ENJOY this process. Crazy, right?
> 
> My personal tip - don't but the advertising hype. Sellers often throw labels on tubes to boost their price. For example, there's only one very specific tube that is a Sylvania Bad Boy. If you've read the 6SN7 thread, you know it. If you've done your research, that's a great first step to not being scammed.
> 
> I'm also of the personal belief that there are no "best" tubes. At least from say the 1950s and earlier (after that quality is spotty IMO). You may develop favourites, but they may not be what everyone else likes.They all offer different flavours. I like having options. But maybe I'm alone in that opinion.


Curious if you have ever heard a Melz 1578, G.E.C.  B65, or RFT Welded Plate 6SN7?  Those 3 are on another level compared to the rest and might change your opinion. . .


----------



## steve468

Wes S said:


> Curious if you have ever heard a Melz 1578, G.E.C.  B65, or RFT Welded Plate 6SN7?  Those 3 are on another level compared to the rest and might change your opinion. . .


I have a pair of Melz. They are very clean and clear, certainly a standout in that regard, but that's not what I always want. In fact I find I can tire of the Melz sound pretty quickly - it's almost too perfect.

I also like rolling in Baldwin branded Sylvanias, for a cheaper example, and they can make just as much sense to me as Melz depending on my mood and what I'm listening to.


----------



## JeffMann

steve468 said:


> I have a pair of Melz. They are very clean and clear, certainly a standout in that regard, but that's not what I always want. In fact I find I can tire of the Melz sound pretty quickly - it's almost too perfect.
> 
> I also like rolling in Baldwin branded Sylvanias, for a cheaper example, and they can make just as much sense to me as Melz depending on my mood and what I'm listening to.


I am trying to understand different viewpoints regarding the choice of a NOS 6sn7 tube.

You state that you can tire of the clear sound of a Melz 6sn7 tube and that it is too perfect. You then stated that you sometimes prefer to use a much cheaper Baldwin branded Sylvania 6sn7 tube depending on your mood and the type of music that you are playing. Does that mean that you change your 6sn7 tubes daily or even more frequently? Why I ask that question is because I would prefer to only use *one* brand of 6sn7 tube that I think is "best" for my audio system and I never want to change tubes based on my mood or the type of music being played (eg. string quartet versus opera).

I don't know which 6sn7 tube will turn out to be "best" for my Cayin HA300MK2 amplifier when using Elrog ER300B tubes. Wes suggested that I start off by choosing a RCA smoked glass 6sn7 tube and I plan to follow his recommendation if I can discover where to purchase a matched pair of those tubes. If I don't like the RCA smoked glass 6sn7 tube, then I will just have to continue my search. However, I can never envisage myself changing driver 6sn7 tubes based on my mood or the type of music being played - and I would prefer to only own *one* set of 6sn7 tubes.

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I am trying to understand different viewpoints regarding the choice of a NOS 6sn7 tube.
> 
> You state that you can tire of the clear sound of a Melz 6sn7 tube and that it is too perfect. You then stated that you sometimes prefer to use a much cheaper Baldwin branded Sylvania 6sn7 tube depending on your mood and the type of music that you are playing. Does that mean that you change your 6sn7 tubes daily or even more frequently? Why I ask that question is because I would prefer to only use *one* brand of 6sn7 tube that I think is "best" for my audio system and I never want to change tubes based on my mood or the type of music being played (eg. string quartet versus opera).
> 
> ...


With tubes, you always want a back-up set or two. You never know when one might go out. Normally tubes last a long time but they are easy to replace, so best to have more than one set. And there should be no reason to change a tube with the type of music. If it is performing well, it should be good for classical or electronica music. 

The RCAs tend to be little warmer. You just want to make sure a good seller and get NOS.


----------



## steve468

JeffMann said:


> I am trying to understand different viewpoints regarding the choice of a NOS 6sn7 tube.
> 
> You state that you can tire of the clear sound of a Melz 6sn7 tube and that it is too perfect. You then stated that you sometimes prefer to use a much cheaper Baldwin branded Sylvania 6sn7 tube depending on your mood and the type of music that you are playing. Does that mean that you change your 6sn7 tubes daily or even more frequently? Why I ask that question is because I would prefer to only use *one* brand of 6sn7 tube that I think is "best" for my audio system and I never want to change tubes based on my mood or the type of music being played (eg. string quartet versus opera).
> 
> ...


Yes, I change tubes sometimes daily. So, maybe my advice is of little use to you.


----------



## tinariwen

incredulousity said:


> I have to agree about NOS. Go there if you can afford the game. Of current production, Quad KT88 with adapters and external power is my current second favorite, after Melz 1578.


I’m curious to see what that looks like. Have you got any pictures? Also, what adapters are you using?


----------



## incredulousity

tinariwen said:


> I’m curious to see what that looks like. Have you got any pictures? Also, what adapters are you using?


Pic in Envy thread. Also description.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Tube rolling is as much a part of the hobby as picking the amplifier or headphones (or cables, or DACs, or source material...) themselves.  Finding "the only" 6SN7 (or equivalent) tube will be a daunting task, especially not knowing the music you prefer, the sound signature you're looking for, your listening habits, whether you're looking at critical listening or casual listening, etc.

Most of us here have several sets that we use based on our moods or desires.  While some change tubes daily, some (like me) might only change tubes when we're shifting genres of music to listen to, or only if we get a new set of tubes to test out.

The Melz are considered by a lot of folks to be the most "technically proficient" 6SN7 variant (technically, it's a 1578, but it's 6SN7-compatible).  It does everything very well, but it is a clean, sterile, precise-sounding tube.  I prefer them with my Elrog 300B-Mo's because together they provide an exceedingly clean listening experience with very little color.

The RCA Grey Glass 6SN7GT (also known as VT-231 or JAN CHS VT-231) are going to sound very warm and rich, and rolled-off at the top end.  Some people like this, others find them a bit dark and "lacking liveliness".  Again, it depends on the kind of music you listen to.  Jazz or blues, great!  Classical or K-Pop?  Not so much.

Bottom line - we choose tubes BECAUSE of the variations we can create in our listening experience by changing out tubes.  It shouldn't be looked upon like a chore - it's a hobby.  You wouldn't buy just ONE pair of skis or just ONE tennis racket, would you?  You experiment with different ones until  you settle on what YOU like.

My $.02, YMMV


----------



## Wes S (Dec 24, 2022)

Rolled back in my quad of Sicte 22DE4's and changed the headphone cable on my VC's to a Forza Noir Hybrid w/Furutec 1/4" jack and the synergy is insanely good.   The Noir Hybrid is a fantastic cable and looks killer too, and pairs extremely well with what the Sicte bring to the table.    The staging is super holographic with really good air and space around each instrument and the bass slams and is weighty yet tight, the mids are super detailed and have just the right amount of euphony, and the highs soar but are never harsh.  I am hearing more of the little nuances, texture and detail as well.






The HA300MK2 continues to impress more and more with every upgrade/tweak to my system and really is such an amazing amp that I feel very fortunate to own.

Happy Listening.


----------



## JeffMann

I have being studying the 6sn7 reference and identification threads and I noted the following statements (in italics).

-----------------------------------

_The 6SN7GTA and GTB versions were introduced in 1950 and 1954 respectively. They have ‘upgraded’ ratings, which are as follows.

GTA: maximum anode dissipation upgraded to 5W (the GT is rated for 2.5W).  max 450Volt Ua, 5W per system and 7.5W total.
GTB: identical to the GTA, but with a controlled heater warm up time for use in equipment with 600mA heater strings

This is significant because it means that a circuit designed around the 6SN7GTA/GTB cannot have 6SN7GTs substituted into it. Substituting a GT in place of a GTA/GTB in your equipment will precipitate its rapid destruction and possibly damage your equipment.

5692 tube - 275V maximum plate voltage & maximum 1.75W per section_
----------------------------------

T_o ensure good tube reliability you should probably run a tube at 70% or less of its maximum plate dissipation.

Using the general audio application of 250 plate volts, a bias of 8 volts resulting in 9ma of current and plate dissipation of 2.25 Watts, we find:

5692 - runs 43 % over maximum rating – It isn’t a 10,000 hour tube when you run it this HOT!
6SN7GT - runs 64% of maximum – coasting and liking it
6SN7GTA/GTB - runs 45% of maximum – Hardly turned on, may outlast you.   _ 

------------------------------------

What are the specifications of the Cayin HA300Mk2 amp in terms of plate voltage and plate current/dissipation?

Is it better suited for GTA and GTB 6sn7 tubes rather than standard GT 6sn7 tubes? Will the lifespan of a GT 6sn7 tube be reduced if used in the amp? What about the advisability of running a 5692 tube in the Cayin HA300MK 2 amp?

Jeff.


----------



## jamato8

JeffMann said:


> I have being studying the 6sn7 reference and identification threads and I noted the following statements (in italics).
> 
> -----------------------------------
> 
> ...


You just need to know the operating points of the amp. I may measure them later. But Cayin could easily provide that.


----------



## JeffMann (Dec 24, 2022)

I have a question about decision-making when buying a NOS 6sn7GT tube.

I was thinking of replacing the stock Tungsol 6sn7 tubes in my Cayin HA300MK2 amp with a RCA VT231/6sn7GT smoked glass tube.

Here is one listed by Tube Depot - https://www.tubedepot.com/products/rca-vt231-6sn7gt-smoked-glass

They offer balanced triodes, high gain and low noise options at an additional price.

What is the difference between "choosing" versus "not choosing" those options in terms of sound quality?

Why I am particularly asking that question is that I can also purchase 2x new (unused) single RCA VT231/6sn7GT smoked glass tube from another source for a total cost of $120. If those two tubes are not perfectly matched/balanced, will I be losing a lot in terms of sound quality.

Here is another related question.

Here is an ebay offer for a RCA 6sn7GT tube - https://www.ebay.com/itm/304677585379?hash=item46f03301e3:g:tD0AAOSwEhFjWguw&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAsET7ltbCC/wloOzTK3FIdefTWDTL8kV9j7Y/pHgTzLGKN/AVvQAq7O26Wcvnc4cAqoNUZ8S9potuEUlIqWUp5VenKaXN5WRSW5A1cmUF7WLtCAtRctZYdh1YThv2vfAsM0UlC5XnS1Qvoz14uM2sW8LG6roV9GGRQc9JD5gCP71hA+RGJBGxeK5T987qvB79GVgDHjwE0uWY61Mhvu4toNP3CA1CAx5pKHXe4eYrk02Q|tkp:Bk9SR56bsbKnYQ

He does not offer testing results or matching.

Here is another ebay offer for a RCA 6sn7GTB tube - https://www.ebay.com/itm/155304518106?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=244527&meid=912d706aee084a36861161a1bf6cb044&pid=101195&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=155308407096&itm=155304518106&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuWithRevOptLambda85KnnRecallV1TitleRecall&brand=RCA&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum:155304518106912d706aee084a36861161a1bf6cb044|enc:AQAHAAABIFWRPpf%2FDa5vn4SEuceq169ve1nVKV2UcyqVYubu5TTZcmr03O0GOPfaRlPO9XKtRjV%2FbOgI%2B%2FqMfHfAKhc8QsDueKw48E0ZbRTQsGW%2BWFMuMyyxiaj7h%2FFZ9Qqum4iEoOEISBqBGn1ARDeTylCNc4an2Cv3hX5hHTKRvMFXtsM%2BGzIFjauZVwHZ8nRJPRlt5We68T0XQmuZALOrZptDi4%2BIeRLNk06gQLQsHTKNLzqlh9t1XL%2FJQW%2BJ2MwYOXlkcxZ9fkq3WY6IxIRjBiYFhjwCGMpN00tw5hWeb2ga398mw8I7ZjaFw35nvtiWnWdctxbMRMJtWVc686HUOGbiypNCw%2Bn0fUnchnH9IKrKPDT9dXy%2Bd2o2YqGqSNB27bkI7w%3D%3D|ampidL_CLK|clp:2047675

He provides test results measurements.

Is the provision of test results useful in terms of purchasing a NOS 6sn7 tube from a seller? Does it better guarantee that I will be getting a better quality tube?

Jeff.


----------



## Andykong

Thanks for being such an important part of the Cayin community. Hope you have a great Christmas and New Year!


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## jamato8

Andykong said:


> Thanks for being such an important part of the Cayin community. Hope you have a great Christmas and New Year!


And there are many other beliefs celebrating this time of year.


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## ThanatosVI

Andykong said:


> Thanks for being such an important part of the Cayin community. Hope you have a great Christmas and New Year!


Please use that Anniversary anp Design for a headamp. It's gorgeous.


----------



## Traiguen

Hello & happy holidays!!!
I just purchased the HA-300B mk ii, it was supposed to get here today but there is a "weather" delay... bummer! 
Could you tell me if the silver-plated Teflon cable to connect the amp to the power supply is long enough to put the power supply to the right of the amp?
Thx.


----------



## jamato8

Traiguen said:


> Hello & happy holidays!!!
> I just purchased the HA-300B mk ii, it was supposed to get here today but there is a "weather" delay... bummer!
> Could you tell me if the silver-plated Teflon cable to connect the amp to the power supply is long enough to put the power supply to the right of the amp?
> Thx.


Yes, right or left with room left over.


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## jamato8

Beethoven's 9th, DSD with ROHM chips, extremely enjoyable on the new SR3 ibasso headphones,.


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## jamato8 (Dec 26, 2022)

Plate voltage will vary some but it is on a tube I have in the unit, 178 and 165 volts. Conservative and while I didn't measure across a resistor to get voltage drop so I could figure the ampere draw, I am sure it is fine. So most any 6SN7 tube used, will be good and should last some time. Heater was right on at 6.32 volts and cathode is right around 7 volts, which would be good for 5 batteries used to bias (the best bias for sound of anything but manufactures don't use this as it takes up more room, though I always used AAA rechargeable batteries. A rechargeable will float to the right voltage for bias and then maintain being charged. It works out really well. Anyway, 6SN7s and their types, will not have a hard time of it, including the 5692.


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## Andykong

jamato8 said:


> Beethoven's 9th, DSD with ROHM chips, extremely enjoyable on the new SR3 ibasso headphones,.




That's the best-looking Christmas fireplace that audiophiles can wish for.


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## jonathan c

How we just love the look and sound of GE tubes & Philips ECG tubes alit and crackling _in the fireplace !! 😈🤗 …_


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## Traiguen (Dec 27, 2022)

I am happy to join the Cayin HA300 mk II club - Amp just got home!
I will keep original tubes for a while to get to know their sound signature before rolling WE300B in.... I did a quick A/B comparison to my Auris HA-2SF and first impression is that HA300's sound is meatier, more bass and in general a fuller sound - I like it.
On my Abyss 1266 dead silent... on my Focal Elegia a bit of hum even with no volume at all.  HD6xx and DT770 Pro 80 ohms... no hum at all, beautiful black background.
Auris will be up for sale if anybody is interested.  (The unit does have a gain switch in the back)


----------



## skylinekursk

Hi guys. Looking on 300b mk2 for Susvara and LCD-5. I had Auris Nirvana mk2, Cayin HA6A, Trafomatic head2 but none of them gave me satisfaction in lows... I guess Head2 was best of them in terms of punch and deep lows but it also has no sub base. Can you share your thoughts about 300b mk2 and bass, punch and sub base.. I need meatier and lush TUBE sound as pair to my AGD HE9mk2 amp..


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## ThanatosVI

skylinekursk said:


> Hi guys. Looking on 300b mk2 for Susvara and LCD-5. I had Auris Nirvana mk2, Cayin HA6A, Trafomatic head2 but none of them gave me satisfaction in lows... I guess Head2 was best of them in terms of punch and deep lows but it also has no sub base. Can you share your thoughts about 300b mk2 and bass, punch and sub base.. I need meatier and lush TUBE sound as pair to my AGD HE9mk2 amp..


The Ha-300B mk2 has more roll off in the Subbass than the Ha-6a you already had.

It will have a more spacious and lush sound but less extension into the subbass.

Maybe a Woo Wa33 or Octave V16 can satisfy you (both probably impossible to Audition  )


----------



## skylinekursk

ThanatosVI said:


> The Ha-300B mk2 has more roll off in the Subbass than the Ha-6a you already had.
> 
> It will have a more spacious and lush sound but less extension into the subbass.
> 
> Maybe a Woo Wa33 or Octave V16 can satisfy you (both probably impossible to Audition  )


how is tube rolling affect on that one?


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## Wes S (Dec 28, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> The Ha-300B mk2 has more roll off in the Subbass than the Ha-6a you already had.
> 
> It will have a more spacious and lush sound but less extension into the subbass.
> 
> Maybe a Woo Wa33 or Octave V16 can satisfy you (both probably impossible to Audition  )


Interesting. . .I have not compared them myself, but I bet the HA300mk2 with Elrog ER300B's, RFT 6SN7's, and Japanese Black Plate 22DE4's can best the HA-6A  in the subbass extension no matter what tubes are used in the 6A.

Assuming you compared both amps with the stock tubes, those tubes are more midbass focused with the HA300mk2, and I think that's why people keep saying the subbass is lacking a bit.  Tube rolling does wonders folks. . .


----------



## ThanatosVI

Wes S said:


> Interesting. . .I bet the HA300mk2 with Elrog ER300B and RFT 6SN7's can best the HA-6A in the sub bass extension no matter what tubes are used in the 6A.


I'm not sure about that (but I could never compare them side by side)
To my knowledge the rolloff is inherent to their tube rectification and transformers, maybe @Andykong can chime in with actual facts 

Could also be that the Ha-6a has it as well to some degree since its rectification and transformers could be similar?

The Feliks Envy which is also a 300B has slightly better extension, but sounds less spacious and sweet in the midrange (from reviews I read, again I never heard any of those myself). This is probably due to the implementation and usage of Solid State rectification vs tube rectification.

However not to be misunderstood, it's not like the Ha300 has huge rolloff at the frequency extremes, just a little more than the Ha-6a or Wa33 etc.
And if bass extension is his desire there might be better fits for his need.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 28, 2022)

ThanatosVI said:


> I'm not sure about that (but I could never compare them side by side)
> To my knowledge the rolloff is inherent to their tube rectification and transformers, maybe @Andykong can chime in with actual facts
> 
> Could also be that the Ha-6a has it as well to some degree since its rectification and transformers could be similar?
> ...


Those reviews are all with the stock tubes, and again tube rolling makes a difference.  Take the comparison with the Envy with a grain of salt, as they were not using the same tubes in both amps.  I can make my HA300mk2 sound spacious and sweet or forward and slamming depending on tubes rolled.  I am a basshead, and the HA300mk2 can take your head off with the right tubes.


----------



## jamato8

I was listening to a live recording of jazz last night. Everything was there from bass up. It was like being there. I am using the Elrog ER some National Union 6F8G round plate.


----------



## msq123

Keep an eye out for Convince Me Audio’s review of HA-300 Mk2 YouTube.  Unlike most other reviews he will be rolling tubes including Elrogs plus some NOS input and rectifier tubes.


----------



## skylinekursk

it might be funny but I consider ha300 mk2 vs ifi ican pro signature which has tube and tube+ modes and xbass feature. Yes I know these two from different worlds but....im looking for harmonic rich tube sound with good lows


----------



## tdx

skylinekursk said:


> it might be funny but I consider ha300 mk2 vs ifi ican pro signature which has tube and tube+ modes and xbass feature. Yes I know these two from different worlds but....im looking for harmonic rich tube sound with good lows


Having had both i can tell you without a doubt the Cayin is in another league, as it should be given the price delta. I liked the Ifi for what it was (and the price) but the Tube mode barely sounded any different from the SS mode. On the Cayin, you can easily hear the added SQ from the tubes.


----------



## skylinekursk

tdx said:


> Having had both i can tell you without a doubt the Cayin is in another league, as it should be given the price delta. I liked the Ifi for what it was (and the price) but the Tube mode barely sounded any different from the SS mode. On the Cayin, you can easily hear the added SQ from the tubes.


wow looks like im lucky to hear opinion ex-owner! thanks a lot! 
Please share your thoughts on bass of 300 mk2..


----------



## tdx

skylinekursk said:


> wow looks like im lucky to hear opinion ex-owner! thanks a lot!
> Please share your thoughts on bass of 300 mk2..


Take this for what it's worth since im not a basshead  but I can tell that with the right tubes the Cayin can have great bass extension, I used to have more fancy/expensive amps (WA33, Pathos Inpol etc) and i prefer the Cayin to them and do not feel Im missing out on bass at all compared to them now I have upgraded my tubes. I find the Cayin gives me the most of what I look for in music (refinement, soundstage, musicality). But again this is just my personal taste in music, if someone is looking for somethinhg else, say perfect slam or something, they may prefer another amp.


----------



## ThanatosVI

Did someone ever try Schiit LISST in their Cayin?


----------



## skylinekursk

tdx said:


> Take this for what it's worth since im not a basshead  but I can tell that with the right tubes the Cayin can have great bass extension, I used to have more fancy/expensive amps (WA33, Pathos Inpol etc) and i prefer the Cayin to them and do not feel Im missing out on bass at all compared to them now I have upgraded my tubes. I find the Cayin gives me the most of what I look for in music (refinement, soundstage, musicality). But again this is just my personal taste in music, if someone is looking for somethinhg else, say perfect slam or something, they may prefer another amp.


very good and I'm looking for same as you do. For slam, dynamics and punch I have he9 ss amp


----------



## jamato8

Doing something I didn't think I would be doing, using IEMs with the MKII. 

I have the new IT05 from iBasso. They needed burning in but once that is done, they are extremely exceptions. So for "fun" I thought I would use the 4.4 out, and now see the reasoning behind the resistor loaded output to cut noise. The detail, body, speed, dynamics are insane. Extremely realistic combination. Mesmerizing sound. Very rich but also articulate. Wow.


----------



## msq123

jamato8 said:


> Doing something I didn't think I would be doing, using IEMs with the MKII.
> 
> I have the new IT05 from iBasso. They needed burning in but once that is done, they are extremely exceptions. So for "fun" I thought I would use the 4.4 out, and now see the reasoning behind the resistor loaded output to cut noise. The detail, body, speed, dynamics are insane. Extremely realistic combination. Mesmerizing sound. Very rich but also articulate. Wow.



I have tried Ambient Acoustics MAD16 and MAD24 which were on loan to me and my custom Mest 2 and was blown away by cayin’s presentation.  I have yet to try them again since I got Elrogs which should take it to next level.


----------



## incredulousity

ThanatosVI said:


> Did someone ever try Schiit LISST in their Cayin?


These look interesting to try. Maybe I’ll get some and try on Envy.


----------



## ThanatosVI

incredulousity said:


> These look interesting to try. Maybe I’ll get some and try on Envy.


If you do, please report back


----------



## incredulousity

ThanatosVI said:


> If you do, please report back


I always do. Currently waiting on Brimar 6J5 from Langrex. They sent me shipping notification, but no tracking number. 😡


----------



## skylinekursk

Does anyone can share impressions on ha300 and Susvara? Is it enough power to drive?


----------



## tdx

skylinekursk said:


> Does anyone can share impressions on ha300 and Susvara? Is it enough power to drive?


I can take that one too  As I said in my earlier post I tried a lot of different amps, incl ones that have more than enough power for the Susvara. And while each amp has its own attributes and strengths, for me the Cayin is the one that brings out what i like the most about the Susvara: big soundtstage, effortless and musical presentation, tons of detail present but without being fatiguing and a tubey sound that compliments the Susvara and is never bloated or too warm. Again that is with upgraded tubes, stock tubes with Susvara were just ok. Oh and i love playing with the three levels of gain on the Cayin. For other HPs there were amps i liked better (for example, WA33 for LCD-5s) but for the Susvara the Cayin is the best I tried so far, at least for the kind of music I listen to. Although it's my dream to one day try a Riviera AIC-10, as I've been told by people I really trust that it's on a whole other level. But so is the price of course.


----------



## Wes S

msq123 said:


> Keep an eye out for Convince Me Audio’s review of HA-300 Mk2 YouTube.  Unlike most other reviews he will be rolling tubes including Elrogs plus some NOS input and rectifier tubes.


Nice!  He did a review of the ZMF Pendant (my previous amp) and I concur with all he said, so I imagine he will do the HA300mk2 justice as well.


----------



## msq123

Wes S said:


> Nice!  He did a review of the ZMF Pendant (my previous amp) and I concur with all he said, so I imagine he will do the HA300mk2 justice as well.


That was my pendant and he did a great job for someone with no prior tube experience. Since then he has had experience with HA-6A and lot of tube rolling so definitely something to watch out for. 
For this amp it is impossible to review on stock tubes which unfortunately most publications did because you don’t tap in to half the potential of this magnificent amp with stock setup. I understand why they don’t want to use highly inaccessible NOS for the review but a section dedicated with various alternatives should be very useful.


----------



## jamato8

msq123 said:


> That was my pendant and he did a great job for someone with no prior tube experience. Since then he has had experience with HA-6A and lot of tube rolling so definitely something to watch out for.
> For this amp it is impossible to review on stock tubes which unfortunately most publications did because you don’t tap in to half the potential of this magnificent amp with stock setup. I understand why they don’t want to use highly inaccessible NOS for the review but a section dedicated with various alternatives should be very useful.


Tubes can come out of sockets, change tubes and see what you hear. lol 

They test cars, and for performance cars, often try different tires. Off-road vehicles, different tires maybe a lift. All normal .

They need to get their head out of the sand and try some different tubes. Stereophile reviews, and will try different tubes. It is the normal thing to do and the intelligent and informed thing to do.


----------



## EagleKent

skylinekursk said:


> Does anyone can share impressions on ha300 and Susvara? Is it enough power to drive?


HA300 sounds fantastic for both my ZMF VC and Susvara with the Susvara always dead silent while the VC is more susceptible to picking up noise e.g RF, ringing of 300B tube as it warms up etc, depending on the tubes used, in my system.  I even heard some Indian music playing very faintly (probably my neighbour) but when I lifted the ZMF cable it disappears (I suspect either RF or something coming through our shared powerline as I live in a complex).  I have rolled many tubes so far and only one pair was dead silent for the VC whereas the Susvara is dead silent for everything 
My chain is Gaming PC->Qobuz->Pontus II or Hugo 2->HA300B.  So far I am really enjoying the Hugo 2 with the Susvara for the extra bass on the Hugo 2 extra bass filter while sacrificing a little of the 3D holographic nature of the Pontus II 
Example track for Susvara god-like performance, Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture, Op. 49, TH 49, the tiny sound of the triangle dinging away in the blackness in its own airy space blew my mind when I first heard it on the Sus
https://open.qobuz.com/track/161042622


----------



## Erwinatm

Another step up besides tubes rolling is replace fuses. Try Synergetic orange / blue  or other brand. @Wes S already gave his impressions somewhere in this thread.


----------



## jamato8

Erwinatm said:


> Another step up besides tubes rolling is replace fuses. Try Synergetic orange / blue  or other brand. @Wes S already gave his impressions somewhere in this thread.


Yes, fuses, power cord and a few other things.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 28, 2022)

Erwinatm said:


> Another step up besides tubes rolling is replace fuses. Try Synergetic orange / blue  or other brand. @Wes S already gave his impressions somewhere in this thread.


The Audio Magic M1 fuse is a game changer and takes the HA300MK2 to another level.


----------



## Erwinatm

msq123 said:


> That was my pendant and he did a great job for someone with no prior tube experience. Since then he has had experience with HA-6A and lot of tube rolling so definitely something to watch out for.
> For this amp it is impossible to review on stock tubes which unfortunately most publications did because you don’t tap in to half the potential of this magnificent amp with stock setup. I understand why they don’t want to use highly inaccessible NOS for the review but a section dedicated with various alternatives should be very useful.


When I choose an tube amp I always try to catch what is the designer's sound signature, besides its technical things of course. Is it in conjuction with my taste, my type of music, upgrades option etc etc? 

If the basic is good, the upgrades is easy and will satisfy you more each day/ each upgrades. Cheers


----------



## llamaluv

EagleKent said:


> HA300 sounds fantastic for both my ZMF VC and Susvara with the Susvara always dead silent while the VC is more susceptible to picking up noise e.g RF, ringing of 300B tube as it warms up etc, depending on the tubes used, in my system.  I even heard some Indian music playing very faintly (probably my neighbour) but when I lifted the ZMF cable it disappears (I suspect either RF or something coming through our shared powerline as I live in a complex).  I have rolled many tubes so far and only one pair was dead silent for the VC whereas the Susvara is dead silent for everything



Haha, I would hear RF-related music on the HA-300 while using the VC as well. The positioning of the cable and time of day affected how strong the radio signal would come in (Country music in my case; is this what they call a "value added"?). In the worst case, I could actually make out the words in the vocals. Funny enough though, after moving about 300 feet away in the same building, this added functionality has been removed.

Among my headphones, the VC is the most sensitive to RF noise and especially tube noise. The Utopia (which is of course very sensitive but lower Z) picks up quite a lot less so.

And of course as you say, the Susvara is dead quiet, because... Susvara. Same has been true for every planar I've ever used with the HA-300 (maybe about 6 in total).


----------



## Andykong

EagleKent said:


> HA300 sounds fantastic for both my ZMF VC and Susvara with the Susvara always dead silent while the VC is more susceptible to picking up noise e.g RF, ringing of 300B tube as it warms up etc, depending on the tubes used, in my system.  I even heard some Indian music playing very faintly (probably my neighbour) but when I lifted the ZMF cable it disappears (I suspect either RF or something coming through our shared powerline as I live in a complex).  I have rolled many tubes so far and only one pair was dead silent for the VC whereas the Susvara is dead silent for everything
> My chain is Gaming PC->Qobuz->Pontus II or Hugo 2->HA300B.  So far I am really enjoying the Hugo 2 with the Susvara for the extra bass on the Hugo 2 extra bass filter while sacrificing a little of the 3D holographic nature of the Pontus II
> Example track for Susvara god-like performance, Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture, Op. 49, TH 49, the tiny sound of the triangle dinging away in the blackness in its own airy space blew my mind when I first heard it on the Sus
> https://open.qobuz.com/track/161042622



Maybe when you lift the cable, your body has grounded the headphone cable and silent the RF interference.  

Not sure if improving the shielding of your headphone cable can solve the problem, but it is worth trying if you have a pair of headphone cables with strong shielding.  What I have in mind is something similar to Gotham *11281* or *11288*, these GAC-4/1 cables are double-shielded, star-quad cables with LCOF Copper.  The *11301 *is their "extremely affordable" flagship balanced audio cable with a similar design but is too thick for headphones applications.


----------



## Wes S (Dec 30, 2022)

llamaluv said:


> Haha, I would hear RF-related music on the HA-300 while using the VC as well. The positioning of the cable and time of day affected how strong the radio signal would come in (Country music in my case; is this what they call a "value added"?). In the worst case, I could actually make out the words in the vocals. Funny enough though, after moving about 300 feet away in the same building, this added functionality has been removed.
> 
> Among my headphones, the VC is the most sensitive to RF noise and especially tube noise. The Utopia (which is of course very sensitive but lower Z) picks up quite a lot less so.
> 
> And of course as you say, the Susvara is dead quiet, because... Susvara. Same has been true for every planar I've ever used with the HA-300 (maybe about 6 in total).


I started getting some noise/interference with my VC's, and it was actually from the router in a completely different room.  My roommate had moved the router and put it on the ground in the room next to me, and out of nowhere I started getting noise.  Without knowing the router had been moved, I tried everything to get rid of the noise, for instance moving the amp to another outlet, changing tubes and cables, adding several different power conditioners, etc. . .and nothing helped.  Then I realized the router had been moved and that was the only thing that had changed once the noise started happening.  So, on a whim I moved the router back to a higher location on a book shelf in that same room next to mine, and the noise is completely gone.  The VC's let you hear everything, and once all noise issues are addressed and the amp is quiet, that everything becomes micro detail and little nuances that come through instead of unwanted noise and it's blissful listening.  I thought this was worth sharing, as I never would have thought a router in another room could cause noise/interference being so far away.


----------



## skylinekursk

decided jump in with ha300 mk2 as tube amp in my set up. 
Heddphone, lcd5 and Susvara are some heavyweights for 300b...we will see how it goes..


----------



## ThanatosVI

skylinekursk said:


> decided jump in with ha300 mk2 as tube amp in my set up.
> Heddphone, lcd5 and Susvara are some heavyweights for 300b...we will see how it goes..


Keep us updated


----------



## ColSaulTigh

skylinekursk said:


> decided jump in with ha300 mk2 as tube amp in my set up.
> Heddphone, lcd5 and Susvara are some heavyweights for 300b...we will see how it goes..


Psst....hey buddy?  Yeah, you.  Can I interest you in some Elrogs???

[Opens trenchcoat]


----------



## jamato8

Perv alert. lol


----------



## EagleKent

Andykong said:


> Maybe when you lift the cable, your body has grounded the headphone cable and silent the RF interference.
> 
> Not sure if improving the shielding of your headphone cable can solve the problem, but it is worth trying if you have a pair of headphone cables with strong shielding.  What I have in mind is something similar to Gotham *11281* or *11288*, these GAC-4/1 cables are double-shielded, star-quad cables with LCOF Copper.  The *11301 *is their "extremely affordable" flagship balanced audio cable with a similar design but is too thick for headphones applications.


Thanks Andy.  That's good info.  Happy to report I have kept my ZMF cable lifted and the RF interference hasn't come back so far.  I will explore the cable options if the RF comes back


----------



## Andykong

EagleKent said:


> Thanks Andy.  That's good info.  Happy to report I have kept my ZMF cable lifted and the RF interference hasn't come back so far.  I will explore the cable options if the RF comes back



Its a pity that most headphone cable didn't take anti-RF interference into consideration.  a pair of unshielded 2m to 3m cable can easily act like an RF antenna, especially when you are using a full-tube headphone amplifier which normally operated in high impedance.


----------



## Andykong (Dec 31, 2022)

On the last day of 2022, we want to thank our friends and users for your long-term support and participation. Your contribution is the main reason that endorses HA-300MK2 as one of the benchmarks for the Personal Audio community. *Headfonics* has named HA-300MK2 as the Best Tube Amplifier in 2022, and we believe HA-300MK2 is also the best vacuum tube headphone amplifier to a lot of personal encaustic in this thread.

2022 is a difficult year, we are looking forward to 2023 and with your support, we'll bring more joy and fun to all cayin friends and users in the coming year.


----------



## jamato8

Andykong said:


> On the last day of 2022, we want to thank our friends and users for your long-term support and participation. Your contribution is the main reason that endorses HA-300MK2 as one of the benchmarks for the Personal Audio community. *Headfonics* has named HA-300MK2 as the Best Tube Amplifier in 2022, and we believe HA-300MK2 is also the best vacuum tube headphone amplifier to a lot of personal encaustic in this thread.
> 
> 2022 is a difficult year, we are looking forward to 2023 and with your support, we'll bring more joy and fun to all cayin friends and users in the coming year.


Yes, it is an extremely good amp at a reasonable price.


----------



## Erwinatm

Andykong said:


> On the last day of 2022, we want to thank our friends and users for your long-term support and participation. Your contribution is the main reason that endorses HA-300MK2 as one of the benchmarks for the Personal Audio community. *Headfonics* has named HA-300MK2 as the Best Tube Amplifier in 2022, and we believe HA-300MK2 is also the best vacuum tube headphone amplifier to a lot of personal encaustic in this thread.
> 
> 2022 is a difficult year, we are looking forward to 2023 and with your support, we'll bring more joy and fun to all cayin friends and users in the coming year.


 Can't agree more Andy...keep up the good work Cayin...

Happy New Year 2023 every one 🍻🍻🍻


----------



## Wes S (Jan 1, 2023)

Andykong said:


> On the last day of 2022, we want to thank our friends and users for your long-term support and participation. Your contribution is the main reason that endorses HA-300MK2 as one of the benchmarks for the Personal Audio community. *Headfonics* has named HA-300MK2 as the Best Tube Amplifier in 2022, and we believe HA-300MK2 is also the best vacuum tube headphone amplifier to a lot of personal encaustic in this thread.
> 
> 2022 is a difficult year, we are looking forward to 2023 and with your support, we'll bring more joy and fun to all cayin friends and users in the coming year.


I am happy to own such an amazing amp, and it continues to blow my mind both sonically and visually every time I use it.  Cayin has truly created a masterpiece!

Congrats to Cayin on a well deserved award and thanks for the continued support Andy!

Happy New Year and Happy Listening to all.


----------



## msq123 (Jan 3, 2023)

I have a very bizarre situation with T1.6AL250V fuse next to power supply blowing up with certain combination of tubes.

I recently acquired KenRad JAN VT231 clear glass and it was working fine when I had it paired with Elrog 300 and Sylvania or GE 22De4.  This morning to test out I swapped Elrogs and rectifier tubes to stock and as soon I started the amp fuse blew up, went through 4 fuse and then I swapped VT231 with stock TungSol GT231B and it worked fine.  And then I swapped back VT231 but  changed power to Elrog and rectifier to Sylvania and that combination worked too without issues.

So for some strange reason this amp doesn’t like combination of KenRad with stock power and rectifier.  My understanding is VT231 and GSN7GTB are the same tubes just different inventory numbers and there shouldn’t be any difference in the spec? Is that correct?

If the Kenrad VT231 was faulty it wouldn’t run with Elrog but no issues there so is it that the combination with stock is too hot or is it the combination with stock RCA 22DE4. I will try that out too so I can get to the actual combination causing the issue but I am clueless as why this could be happening in the first place.

Anyone got any insight on this or faced similar situation where certain pairing of tubes doesn’t  work?

PS - I have had issues with blown fuse in the past but that was sorted when I ensured pre amp volume pot was down to min when starting but there has been no blown fuse since I switched to Elrog so GoldLion 300b could have issues and I am picking up wrong end of the stick with KenRads?


----------



## ColSaulTigh

msq123 said:


> I have a very bizarre situation with T1.6AL250V fuse next to power supply blowing up with certain combination of tubes.
> 
> I recently acquired KenRad JAN VT231 clear glass and it was working fine when I had it paired with Elrog 300 and Sylvania or GE 22De4.  This morning to test out I swapped Elrogs and rectifier tubes to stock and as soon I started the amp fuse blew up, went through 4 fuse and then I swapped VT231 with stock TungSol GT231B and it worked fine.  And then I swapped back VT231 but  changed power to Elrog and rectifier to Sylvania and that combination worked too without issues.
> 
> ...


I've not encountered any issues with my VT231's (Tung Sol, Sylvania, RCA) and any of my 300B tubes (granted, I don't have the same stock pair you do, and I'm running a different amp.  But to answer your question, no, the VT231's should all be the same unless you got a weird variant.


----------



## msq123

ColSaulTigh said:


> I've not encountered any issues with my VT231's (Tung Sol, Sylvania, RCA) and any of my 300B tubes (granted, I don't have the same stock pair you do, and I'm running a different amp.  But to answer your question, no, the VT231's should all be the same unless you got a weird variant.



I have narrowed it down to GoldLion 300b stock tubes.  Tried every other possible combination and have no issues and even in the past every time there was a blown fuse these tubes were in the mix.  They do work fine mostly but maybe with certain combinations there is a surge at start up which trips the fuse.  I don’t have a tube tester yet so can‘t be absolutely sure but I am going to be more careful when working with these tubes, definitely not with KenRad input tubes .


----------



## mfgillia

msq123 said:


> I have narrowed it down to GoldLion 300b stock tubes.  Tried every other possible combination and have no issues and even in the past every time there was a blown fuse these tubes were in the mix.  They do work fine mostly but maybe with certain combinations there is a surge at start up which trips the fuse.  I don’t have a tube tester yet so can‘t be absolutely sure but I am going to be more careful when working with these tubes, definitely not with KenRad input tubes .


Hope that solves your problems with the fuse.  I haven't had any technical difficulties with the stock rectifiers paired with the Kenrads but never tried it with the stock GoldLions as once I put in the Elrogs had little motivation to try different 300Bs. With that said, the Kenrads aren't for me sounding too muddy to my ears compared to other options.


----------



## jamato8 (Jan 4, 2023)

IMO, though it can be expensive, It is always good to have a tube tester or access to one and the mutual conductance type. Not the drugstore old type. They would wreck a tube (wrong applied voltage and method of testing).

Do not use your amp as the tester.


----------



## Andykong

jamato8 said:


> IMO, though it can be expensive, It is always good to have a tube tester or access to one and the mutual conductance type. Not the drugstore old type. They would wreck a tube (wrong applied voltage and method of testing).
> 
> Do use your amp as the tester.



you mean do NOT use your amp as the tester?


----------



## skylinekursk

just wonder how is RCA 6sn7gtb black plate 1957 sounds on ha300 mk2?


----------



## msq123

jamato8 said:


> IMO, though it can be expensive, It is always good to have a tube tester or access to one and the mutual conductance type. Not the drugstore old type. They would wreck a tube (wrong applied voltage and method of testing).
> 
> Do not use your amp as the tester.



I think I need to get one, any recommendations to start with?  

I have removed GL300b and probably best not to use it until I am sure what's going on there.


----------



## jamato8

msq123 said:


> I think I need to get one, any recommendations to start with?
> 
> I have removed GL300b and probably best not to use it until I am sure what's going on there.


I would get a military tester but not the TV7 A, it was the 1st of the series and is less reliable and doesn't hold up as well as the next generations of TV7 testers. Also one that is calibrated. Hickok testers are generally good. You want a mutual conductance tester. There are a lot of testers but some are more of a pain to use and a tester is just that, it will show you if the tube is bad and basically how it measures but it is a generalization. 

A chart may show a tube as acceptable at say, a 3000 reading and new at 5500 or more. But a tube may test at 4500 so you think, even though it is NOS, it must be going bad or is used but it also depends upon the tube manufacturer. I have a set of 6F8G tubes that are NOS that measure lower than other NOS but they are the best sounding I have heard for the 6F8G family. 

I would read up on testers. There are some good articles on the web. I would filter through the info to get a grasp of it. Of course it is a learning curve but then it clicks in pretty fast once you start thinking about it. 

My 1st tester was a Hickok that was a 600A. It was so used that it was ragged but it worked. I learned with it then got some other testers and sold it. I have a few TV7s, two Hickok 439Cs, with one that is essentially new and a few other testers. All calibrated either by me or by a professional in Phoenix. But it is always good to make sure the tubes you are going to use are good.


----------



## msq123

jamato8 said:


> I would get a military tester but not the TV7 A, it was the 1st of the series and is less reliable and doesn't hold up as well as the next generations of TV7 testers. Also one that is calibrated. Hickok testers are generally good. You want a mutual conductance tester. There are a lot of testers but some are more of a pain to use and a tester is just that, it will show you if the tube is bad and basically how it measures but it is a generalization.
> 
> A chart may show a tube as acceptable at say, a 3000 reading and new at 5500 or more. But a tube may test at 4500 so you think, even though it is NOS, it must be going bad or is used but it also depends upon the tube manufacturer. I have a set of 6F8G tubes that are NOS that measure lower than other NOS but they are the best sounding I have heard for the 6F8G family.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing this. Very useful info to kickstart my journey in to valve testers. 🍻


----------



## Traiguen

Hi guys,
Anybody using a HA1000SE with the mk2 that could comment on the paring?


----------



## Traiguen

WE3000B are in..... camera is bad but the sound of these tubes is beautiful!!!


----------



## JeffMann (Jan 7, 2023)

It is my impression that WE 300B tubes have a large amount of blue-purple glow - compared to other brands of 300B tubes.

Is that true? If affirmative - what is causing that significant amount of blue-purple glow?

Jeff.


----------



## ColSaulTigh (Jan 6, 2023)

JeffMann said:


> It is impression that WE 300B tubes have a large amount of blue-purple glow - compared to other brands of 300B tubes.
> 
> Is that true? If affirmative - what is causing that significant amount of blue-purple glow?
> 
> Jeff.


*I am seeing a blue glow inside my 300B. Does this affect normal operation? Does this effect mean my tube is defective?*
A blue glow may appear in the dome of the WE300-B just below the upper mica and the top edge of the plate. The space between the plate and glass is small at this point (less than 1/8”) and appears to be the only area of the tube where this phenomenon takes place. The glow is caused by the electrons striking the plate, volatizing the surface, and dislodging atoms of nickel. High speed barium-strontium electrons from the filament collide with the atom, tearing off electrons, ionizing them and causing a deep blue color even in a well evacuated tube. The resulting glow is a function of the plate voltage and the number of gas molecules in the envelope. In a good vacuum there are still billions of molecules. The electrons travel safely back to the positively charged plate. 

The size of the glow varies with plate voltage and is not the same for each tube and can range from hardly discernible to very obvious, even in daylight. It does not affect tube performance as can be shown by observing the characteristic curves during tube operation.

However, dangerous levels of gas can ionize throughout the entire bulb from a high voltage spark. In this case, the gas will be pink in color and will cause variations in plate current. Air in the tube can ionize in a similar manner throughout the entire bulb, but will appear more blue than pink. In this case, the filament becomes oxidized and emission will drop dramatically.


----------



## Alenotta

I ended up ordering the Linlai Elite 6sn7s based on some positive thoughts on here. They just came in the mail and I plugged them in. I had read they sound bad out of the gate and then slowly mature. All I can say is these things sound pretty fantastic out of the box. Got mine on Ali Express for like $140 matched pair. So far I've tried Ken Rad, RCA Coinbase, Tung Sol stock tubes, GE, and a grab bag of 12au7s with adapter. These have a really nice balance of detail, energy and richness. I also really like the Coinbase RCAs from the 70s I think. They have a little less thickness, but a pretty natural airiness. I haven't given the Ken Rads enough time, but they didn't wow me as much as I had hoped they would. I didn't get a matched pair of those though.


----------



## msq123

Alenotta said:


> I ended up ordering the Linlai Elite 6sn7s based on some positive thoughts on here. They just came in the mail and I plugged them in. I had read they sound bad out of the gate and then slowly mature. All I can say is these things sound pretty fantastic out of the box. Got mine on Ali Express for like $140 matched pair. So far I've tried Ken Rad, RCA Coinbase, Tung Sol stock tubes, GE, and a grab bag of 12au7s with adapter. These have a really nice balance of detail, energy and richness. I also really like the Coinbase RCAs from the 70s I think. They have a little less thickness, but a pretty natural airiness. I haven't given the Ken Rads enough time, but they didn't wow me as much as I had hoped they would. I didn't get a matched pair of those though.



KenRads take a long time before they are ready for prime time. Give them 100 hours burn in and then try again. Good luck 🤞🏽


----------



## Traiguen

Traiguen said:


> Hi guys,
> Anybody using a HA1000SE with the mk2 that could comment on the paring?


Hi guys, I am considering buying a Hifiman HA1000SE but I want to make sure there is no hum sound on the HA300mk2.  Does anyone have this headphone on the Cayin?
So far the only headphone which is completely silent on my mk2 is the Abyss 1266, I get a low hum sound on Focal Elegia and HD6xx.


----------



## Alenotta

Traiguen said:


> Hi guys, I am considering buying a Hifiman HA1000SE but I want to make sure there is no hum sound on the HA300mk2.  Does anyone have this headphone on the Cayin?
> So far the only headphone which is completely silent on my mk2 is the Abyss 1266, I get a low hum sound on Focal Elegia and HD6xx.


Haven’t heard it but planar is going to be safer for hum volume. Also the balanced 2.5 seems better for the noise floor with my dynamics.


----------



## tdx

If anyone is looking for a black HA-300 Mk2 in mint condition with fully upgraded tubes (Elrog ER300B, Linlai Elite 6SN7 and NOS RCA 6SN7GT) feel free to pm me. I'll be putting it up in the classifieds later today but wanted to see if anyone in this thread was interested first. Cheers!


----------



## Alenotta

tdx said:


> If anyone is looking for a black HA-300 Mk2 in mint condition with fully upgraded tubes (Elrog ER300B, Linlai Elite 6SN7 and NOS RCA 6SN7GT) feel free to pm me. I'll be putting it up in the classifieds later today but wanted to see if anyone in this thread was interested first. Cheers!


That is going to be a lucky person!


----------



## tdx

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds...elite-nos-rca-grey-glass-6sn7-and-more.39282/


----------



## jambaj0e

So I managed to snag 4 NOS Sylvania 22DE4 , and they're the first ones I've gotten that didn't have a low-level electrical noise, at last after a few minutes. What I noticed vs the stock 22DE4 is:

There seems to be less depth front to back, but wider left to right, almost like sound are pushed out more to the separate left and right vs before. Vocals seem to be more forward, too


----------



## Wes S (Sunday at 8:18 AM)

jambaj0e said:


> So I managed to snag 4 NOS Sylvania 22DE4 , and they're the first ones I've gotten that didn't have a low-level electrical noise, at last after a few minutes. What I noticed vs the stock 22DE4 is:
> 
> There seems to be less depth front to back, but wider left to right, almost like sound are pushed out more to the separate left and right vs before. Vocals seem to be more forward, too


Nice!  The more Sylvania tubes you have in the system the more prominent that "house sound" will be.  You should try blending the rectifiers, as in a pair of stock in the back two slots and a pair of the Sylvania in the front slots and I bet some of that depth might come back, and the vocals might be just right for you.

I have landed on running a pair of Sicte 22DE4's in the back slots and a pair of Sylvania in the front positions and loving the combo.  The Sicte are warmer and more open and the Sylvania help tighten up the sound just enough to make it perfect for my taste.


----------



## jambaj0e (Sunday at 3:54 PM)

Wes S said:


> Nice!  The more Sylvania tubes you have in the system the more prominent that "house sound" will be.  You should try blending the rectifiers, as in a pair of stock in the back two slots and a pair of the Sylvania in the front slots and I bet some of that depth might come back, and the vocals might be just right for you.
> 
> I have landed on running a pair of Sicte 22DE4's in the back slots and a pair of Sylvania in the front positions and loving the combo.  The Sicte are warmer and more open and the Sylvania help tighten up the sound just enough to make it perfect for my taste.



Ahh interesting. I'm also running NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal base tubes and Western Electric 300bs. Oh, I forgot to mention that I have the original HA-300 Mk I.
I'll probably stay with the Sylvania 22DE4 for a week or two to burn them in, then see about switching the back ones to the stock.

The back ones, they rectify which tubes?


----------



## skylinekursk

received ha300 mk2 & Susvara yesterday... just wonder how many hours needed for burn in...I hear less bass today and I hope it's because burn in process...but....


----------



## DMITRIY R

skylinekursk said:


> received ha300 mk2 & Susvara yesterday... just wonder how many hours needed for burn in...I hear less bass today and I hope it's because burn in process...but....


Well, warm up. We are waiting for impressions and comparisons with Trafomatic head 2 and Auris Nirvana.


----------



## msq123

skylinekursk said:


> received ha300 mk2 & Susvara yesterday... just wonder how many hours needed for burn in...I hear less bass today and I hope it's because burn in process...but....


Give it 100-150 hours and then it will start singing. Enjoy 😉


----------



## skylinekursk

anyway first impressions are much better than I expected. I've got exactly what I wanted from tube amp. Pair of 50s RCA 6sn7gtb is on the way..


----------



## Alenotta

Has anyone been using EML 300Bs? I see so many folks using Elrog, but not a lot of chatter about those. 

Also, anyone test out the Linlai Elite 300B? I'm really enjoying these Linlai Elite 6sn7 in here.


----------



## jamato8

There are many combinations that work well. Also, while a little different, I don't think the 300BMKII is better than the HA-6A. The right tubes in either gives you a large delineated stage, great bass and very transparent.


----------



## Alenotta

jamato8 said:


> There are many combinations that work well. Also, while a little different, I don't think the 300BMKII is better than the HA-6A. The right tubes in either gives you a large delineated stage, great bass and very transparent.


Yeah I almost went for the 6A, but decided to go 300 because I’m driving some desk speakers with it as well. The only annoying thing is the speaker tap always outputs music at a low volume even if you have it switched to headphones. I’m sure there is a reason for this compromise, but it is a bit of a bummer. I just unplug the speakers a lot of the time. Still very happy with my 300b! I’ve been tube rolling everything except the 300b. Narrowing in on my list of fun candidates.


----------



## jambaj0e

I'd highly recommend trying the new Western Electric 300b. They're pricey, but with the 5-year warranty and amazing sound, they're worth it!


----------



## jamato8

jambaj0e said:


> I'd highly recommend trying the new Western Electric 300b. They're pricey, but with the 5-year warranty and amazing sound, they're worth it!


I have understood that the WE 300B is having issues with QC. Hopefully then, this has been resolved?


----------



## Alenotta

jamato8 said:


> I have understood that the WE 300B is having issues with QC. Hopefully then, this has been resolved?


Seems like most 300b tubes these days are having failures. That definitely factors into the buying decision when you're dropping like 800-2000 on top shelf ones.


----------



## jambaj0e

I did have my first pair develop some noise issues, but because of the 5-year warranty, as well as having the factory be in the US, the replacement was very easy. They sent over a new matched pair, I tested it, then shipped back the bad pair. All shipping paid by them.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Alenotta said:


> Has anyone been using EML 300Bs? I see so many folks using Elrog, but not a lot of chatter about those.
> 
> Also, anyone test out the Linlai Elite 300B? I'm really enjoying these Linlai Elite 6sn7 in here.


----------



## JeffMann

I have noted that Linlai has produced a new 6sn7 tube variant called the CV181-H

See - https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804710818037.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US

Does anybody know any details regarding this new variant and has anybody auditioned the tube?

Jeff.


----------



## jonathan c

Alenotta said:


> Seems like most 300b tubes these days are having failures. That definitely factors into the buying decision when you're dropping like 800-2000 on top shelf ones.


Accelerated production to meet demand ==> higher chance of QC mishaps? 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## paradoxper

JeffMann said:


> I have noted that Linlai has produced a new 6sn7 tube variant called the CV181-H
> 
> See - https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804710818037.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US
> 
> ...


The answer is there is not a new tube. Not from Linlai. And never from AliExpress which aren't authorized distribution channels.


----------



## jambaj0e

Alenotta said:


> Seems like most 300b tubes these days are having failures. That definitely factors into the buying decision when you're dropping like 800-2000 on top shelf ones.


My current WE300b (1 1/4 year in) and the other tubes are working great. Lots of dynamics, speed, soundstage, and textures, no electrical noise or humming.


----------



## jambaj0e

So I changed back my 22DE4 to the stock RCAs. Definitely more dynamic, especially with the drums, and I like the front to back depth more and not having the left right channels not be pushed way farther than it should be.

So for me, there's definitely a noticeable difference between the Sylvania vs RCA 22DE4, and at least with my audio chain and set of tubes (Western Electric 300b and Sylvania 6sn7W metal base tubes), the RCAs work much better.


----------



## ThanatosVI

JeffMann said:


> I have noted that Linlai has produced a new 6sn7 tube variant called the CV181-H
> 
> See - https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804710818037.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US
> 
> ...


If Linlai really produced it, then it's only for the Chinese domestic market.
They "trial" all their new stuff in China and then probably bring it to the Western market after a while.

On Aliexpress you can find a ton of fakes.
Personally I would look on sites of official distributors like 
https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product-category/shop_by_brand/linlai_tubes/

If it's listed there it's at least an official type they actually produce. 

However often they come with reliability issues.
The german distributor btb-elektronik.de told me, that the new Dream series is still unreliable and they will start listing them after Linlai got a grip on it.


----------



## Andykong

Alenotta said:


> Seems like most 300b tubes these days are having failures. That definitely factors into the buying decision when you're dropping like 800-2000 on top shelf ones.


It looks like your speaker has picked up some crosstalk inside the amplifier.  What is the sensitivity and nominal impedance of your speaker?  Technically, the amount of audible crosstalk is related to the sensitivity of your speaker, the higher the sensitivity, the more likely you'll hear crosstalk when there is multiple output path in the amplifier.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

Alenotta said:


> Seems like most 300b tubes these days are having failures. That definitely factors into the buying decision when you're dropping like 800-2000 on top shelf ones.


"Most" is a rather subjective statement.  I think it's more like "rare to occasional".  Also, most of the ToTL tubes will come with pretty substantial warranty and excellent customer service, from both the distributor and the manufacturer.


----------



## JeffMann

ThanatosVI said:


> If Linlai really produced it, then it's only for the Chinese domestic market.
> They "trial" all their new stuff in China and then probably bring it to the Western market after a while.
> 
> On Aliexpress you can find a ton of fakes.
> ...


It is my understanding that the new Linlai CV181-H tube has only been produced for the Chinese market.

However, I cannot understand what it means to label any Linlai 6sn7 tube as a fake because there are apparently very few tube manufacturers in China who could produce a 6sn7 tube. It could well be that the Linlia Elite 6sn7 tubes sold in China are inferior in quality than the ones sold in the USA and Europe, but I strongly suspect that they are actually manufactured by Linlai.

There is a long Audiogon thread discussing this issue - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/linlai-e-6sn7-tubes

It is interesting to me that although the Linlai manufacturer doesn't offer warranty for those unauthorized Linali Elite 6sn7 tubes being sold in China, they have *never* categorically stated that they did not manufacture those tubes.

Here is a link to those Linlai Elite 6sn7 tubes being sold in China - https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256...tewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US

I can accept the fact that they are unauthorised by Linlai, but how can they be a "fake tube" manufactured by another tube company, considering the fact that there are apparently very few tube manufacturing companies in China?

Interestingly, a number of USA tube amplifier owners have purchased those tubes and have stated that they were very impressed with their sound quality.

I have ordered a pair of those Linlai Elite 6sn7 tubes out-of-curiousity just to hear how they sound compared to the NOS RCA smoked glass V231 6sn7 GT and NOS Sylvania V231 6sn7GT tubes that I have recently purchased.

Jeff.


----------



## ThanatosVI

JeffMann said:


> However, I cannot understand what it means to label any Linlai 6sn7 tube as a fake


That means that some other company just labels their tubes with the Linlai logo to make them look like Linlai tubes.

Exactly like they fake G.E.C and other famous NOS tubes.


----------



## JeffMann (Tuesday at 11:16 AM)

ThanatosVI said:


> That means that some other company just labels their tubes with the Linlai logo to make them look like Linlai tubes.
> 
> Exactly like they fake G.E.C and other famous NOS tubes.


I cannot understand your claim.

If you look at those AliExpress Linlai Elite 6sn7 tubes that I linked to there are only small differences to the official Linlai Elite 6sn7 tubes being sold by Premium Vacuum Tubes in Canada. The official Linlai Elite 6sn7 tubes have the writing on the tube aligned vertically and there is no horizontal groove across the base while the "fake" tubes have the writing on the tube aligned horizontally. However, the interior structure of the two tubes look very similar. You may claim that it is a still a "fake" being manufactured by another tube manufacturer, but how does that manufacturer produce such a similar tube? Also, when Linlai was challenged as to the origin of those "fake" tubes (according to a person writing in that Audiogon thread), they never stated that they did not manufacture those tubes. They seemingly inferred that the Linlai Elite 6sn7 tubes being sold in China were tuned differently for the Chinese ear.

Jeff.


----------



## JeffMann (Tuesday at 11:08 AM)

I just discovered an interesting fact.

Here is a link to the Linlai company's Chinese website - http://www.linlaitube.com/

If you look at their listed 6sn7 tube on page 5, it is the AliExpress version (with horizontal lettering and a groove across the base).

It is marked as selling for 625 Yuan, which works out to ~$93.

That suggests that the AliExpress version is really a Linlai-manufactured tube specifically targeted for sale in the Chinese market.

Jeff.


----------



## ThanatosVI

JeffMann said:


> You may claim that it is a still a "fake" being manufactured by another tube manufacturer, but how does that manufacturer produce such a similar tube?


The same way the produce very Real looking counterfeits to popular NOS tubes.


JeffMann said:


> Also, when Linlai was challenged as to the origin of those "fake" tubes (according to a person writing in that Audiogon thread), they never stated that they did not manufacture those tubes.


True, they simply don't know if it's a original from the Chinese market or some counterfeit.
And there Is nothing they would gain from thoroughly investigating it 

https://linlaiglobal.com/index.php/category/buyer_beware/

These tubes could sound good
They could be originals 
Or not ... you'll never know.

If that's fine for you give them a try


----------



## jonh1

Some photos of my system)


----------



## paradoxper

Needs Elrogs! Very nice otherwise.


----------



## ColSaulTigh

paradoxper said:


> Needs Elrogs! Very nice otherwise.


----------



## jamato8

Would like to hear it with the WE 300B. Elrog ER are good but to me, nothing super special.


----------



## paradoxper

jamato8 said:


> Would like to hear it with the WE 300B. Elrog ER are good but to me, nothing super special.


Crazy! WE are pretty underwhelming and technically muddled but I am quite the unabashed Elrog ER/Mo and TM300B fan.


----------



## jamato8

paradoxper said:


> Crazy! WE are pretty underwhelming and technically muddled but I am quite the unabashed Elrog ER/Mo and TM300B fan.


Many do not feel that way about the WE 300B. And so much depends upon the driver.


----------



## paradoxper

jamato8 said:


> Many do not feel that way about the WE 300B. And so much depends upon the driver.


Not even close for myself. I say godspeed.


----------



## jamato8

paradoxper said:


> Not even close for myself. I say godspeed.


I only have what read about the 300B WE. The Elrog are good, but to me, nothing spectacular. Maybe I will try some driver tubes with round plates again.


----------



## incredulousity

jamato8 said:


> I only have what read about the 300B WE. The Elrog are good, but to me, nothing spectacular. Maybe I will try some driver tubes with round plates again.


So have you actually heard both Elrogs and WE? (We pretend that Elrog TM don’t exist.)


----------



## jamato8

incredulousity said:


> So have you actually heard both Elrogs and WE? (We pretend that Elrog TM don’t exist.)


No, I have read about them, that is the information I have. And I have the Elrog ER.


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## Alenotta

Andykong said:


> It looks like your speaker has picked up some crosstalk inside the amplifier.  What is the sensitivity and nominal impedance of your speaker?  Technically, the amount of audible crosstalk is related to the sensitivity of your speaker, the higher the sensitivity, the more likely you'll hear crosstalk when there is multiple output path in the amplifier.


Ahhh interesting. My speakers on my desk are just KEF Q150s. Looks like they are 86 db sensitivity and 8 ohm impedance. The inconvenience of it certainly doesn't outweigh the performance and value of the amp. I love the amp. I can always get my butt up and unplug speakers.


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## Alenotta

JeffMann said:


> It is my understanding that the new Linlai CV181-H tube has only been produced for the Chinese market.
> 
> However, I cannot understand what it means to label any Linlai 6sn7 tube as a fake because there are apparently very few tube manufacturers in China who could produce a 6sn7 tube. It could well be that the Linlia Elite 6sn7 tubes sold in China are inferior in quality than the ones sold in the USA and Europe, but I strongly suspect that they are actually manufactured by Linlai.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if this is the same link I bought, but I got mine on Ali Express for about the same price for a matched pair. They came in that same red box. They sound fantastic. I'm really enjoying them and put them toward the top of the 6sn7s I've tried with my current system.


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## Alenotta

ColSaulTigh said:


> "Most" is a rather subjective statement.  I think it's more like "rare to occasional".  Also, most of the ToTL tubes will come with pretty substantial warranty and excellent customer service, from both the distributor and the manufacturer.


I only deal in subjective statements. Mostly at least.


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## wazzupi

jambaj0e said:


> NOS Sylvania 6SN7W metal base tubes


My favorite tubes ever someone needs to replicate them before they are extinct.


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## jonathan c

Alenotta said:


> I only deal in subjective statements. Mostly at least.


Here’s a mind twister…:  “generalisations are usually false”. 😏


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## Skyediver

JeffMann said:


> I have spent 50 - 100 hours reading all the numerous 6sn7 threads. I found that there were only a few tube sources mentioned eg. Tube Depot, Tube World Express, Vintage Tube Services, AudioTubes.com (Brent Jessee), but they either have very few NOS 6sn7 tubes at present, or their selection choice recommendations are too confusing for a neophyte tube roller like me. Many people also seem to have purchased NOS 6sn7 tubes from e-bay sellers, but that seems to be a potential nightmare because many ebay sellers apparently cannot be trusted (based on many comments made in those threads).
> 
> Thank you for wishing me "good luck" - I may need it if I hope to find a 6sn7 tube choice to complement the Elrog ER300B tubes!
> 
> Jeff.


Jeff, I feel your pain.  This aspect of the hobby and the reality of the situation as a new person trying to efficiently navigate it to just simply buy quality tubes through vetted means is archaic, at best.  Yes, there’s tons of information to short through (some of the threads are now literally hundreds if not thousands of messages long, and while several great folks are willing to comment to share info on how to navigate, often the recommendations are for tubes that are literally unobtainable and/or ridiculously priced.  While always shared with nothing but the best of intentions of sharing info of course, I personally get miffed at the constant recommendation of tubes that can’t easily be found/bought… it just creates frustration ultimately.  Again, no one’s fault per se, just a frustrating experience for folks that didn’t enter the game at a more opportune time.

Sorry I can’t really provide a solution to any of this, just sharing to convey I know exactly where you’re coming from and can commiserate.  I’m not wishing for a recession, but a bit of a “market correction” may help us in the tube marketplace.  Or not, who knows?


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## Skyediver

ColSaulTigh said:


> Tube rolling is as much a part of the hobby as picking the amplifier or headphones (or cables, or DACs, or source material...) themselves.  Finding "the only" 6SN7 (or equivalent) tube will be a daunting task, especially not knowing the music you prefer, the sound signature you're looking for, your listening habits, whether you're looking at critical listening or casual listening, etc.
> 
> Most of us here have several sets that we use based on our moods or desires.  While some change tubes daily, some (like me) might only change tubes when we're shifting genres of music to listen to, or only if we get a new set of tubes to test out.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of this… for those who want that experience.  Legitimately, others (myself included) think there’s a fine line between those who truly enjoy the journey, and find it actually indeed a chore, and an expensive one at that.


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## Skyediver

Alenotta said:


> I ended up ordering the Linlai Elite 6sn7s based on some positive thoughts on here. They just came in the mail and I plugged them in. I had read they sound bad out of the gate and then slowly mature. All I can say is these things sound pretty fantastic out of the box. Got mine on Ali Express for like $140 matched pair. So far I've tried Ken Rad, RCA Coinbase, Tung Sol stock tubes, GE, and a grab bag of 12au7s with adapter. These have a really nice balance of detail, energy and richness. I also really like the Coinbase RCAs from the 70s I think. They have a little less thickness, but a pretty natural airiness. I haven't given the Ken Rads enough time, but they didn't wow me as much as I had hoped they would. I didn't get a matched pair of those though.


Hmm, I got the Linlai’s couple of months back when I first got my amp, and was underwhelmed.  Hadn’t heard that some felt that way as well; glad you were pleased.

Biggest lesson for me was to just slow down on the frantic tube rolling; give the stock and all other tubes some time with my ears/gear so I could really figure out my differences/preferences.  Will go back to the LinLai’s in due time.


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## Skyediver

jambaj0e said:


> I did have my first pair develop some noise issues, but because of the 5-year warranty, as well as having the factory be in the US, the replacement was very easy. They sent over a new matched pair, I tested it, then shipped back the bad pair. All shipping paid by them.


Impressive.  Warranties aren’t the most “sexy” thing… until you need to use it.  Wish this was industry standard across all brands.


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## jambaj0e

wazzupi said:


> My favorite tubes ever someone needs to replicate them before they are extinct.



And as crazy as it sound, I got it as a bargain for a pair of NOS at $500. I usually seen non-NOS going for $600+


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## jambaj0e

Skyediver said:


> Impressive.  Warranties aren’t the most “sexy” thing… until you need to use it.  Wish this was industry standard across all brands.


It was the biggest reason I didn't replace my Psvane Acme 300b with another pair or ACME because they only have 1 year warranty and mine developed problems 1 year and 3-4 months in.

What's the warranty on Elrogs?


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## wazzupi

jambaj0e said:


> And as crazy as it sound, I got it as a bargain for a pair of NOS at $500. I usually seen non-NOS going for $600+


I had a pair back in 2019 cost me 320 sold my Glenn otl with 1 (the other broke) little did I know how rare and expensive they were going to be !


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## ARCXENOS (Thursday at 9:14 AM)

There is another quad of Sylvania 22de4s that is not the GE construction on ebay at this time of writing

I need one of you to get it because I am having thoughts of getting a backup quad 😆 Its sold!


P.S. I have the Holo Bliss for almost 2 weeks now, and I would like to say, the HA300b mk2 is definitely not lacking in bass with the susvara with the right tube setup, from a HPA point of view.


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## dnd3241

ARCXENOS said:


> There is another quad of Sylvania 22de4s that is not the GE construction on ebay at this time of writing
> 
> I need one of you to get it because I am having thoughts of getting a backup quad 😆
> 
> ...


The strong output gains from Holo help a lot.


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## Alenotta

ARCXENOS said:


> There is another quad of Sylvania 22de4s that is not the GE construction on ebay at this time of writing
> 
> I need one of you to get it because I am having thoughts of getting a backup quad 😆 Its sold!
> 
> ...


I'm using the Gustard R26 and it is a pretty nice combo. I feel like the bass is at a nice natural level. I'd always take some extra richness if it was offered to me.


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