# Audio-GD NFB-12



## Slaughter

I thought I would start a new thread so the NFB-11 thread doesn't continue to get polluted with NFB-12 talk. It's going to be a long 4 weeks!
   

   
  [size=large]*Dual *WM8741 chips[/size]

*[size=x-large]NFB - 12[/size]*

 [size=small]*Dedicated DAC + Headphone amp
 (Dedicated DAC with variable and fixed line level output)*[/size]

*[size=small]24Bit / 96KHz USB input and 24Bit / 192KHz Coaxial /optical input support[/size]*
  
*[size=small]Applies ACSS [/size]*

 [size=small]*Fully discrete non- feedback amp without any OPAs in signal paths, couple caps, built by exact match transistors.*[/size]


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## vrln

I am so excited about this... The slightly warm and forgiving (compared to Sabre) Wolfson chip is perfect for a PC rig, especially as most headphones tend to lean on the bright side. I had originally ordered an NFB-11, but then used the money as part payment for a CD7 instead. I think I´ll get one of these soon...


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## wayward91

just to clarify, the nfb 11 is more forgiving of a bad transport and jitter ??


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## vrln

I believe so, because the Sabre32 chip has a very advanced anti-jitter elimination mechanism. At least if it is enabled in the NFB-11, and I see no reason why it wouldn´t be. The Wolfsons are known to be quite transport-reliable, which is why many use them with a HiFace etc.


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## Olias of Sunhillow

I pre-ordered my NFB-12 this morning. I went with this one over the NFB-11 based solely on Kingwa's descriptions of the two units, which made me conclude that my RS-1s are a better match with the Wolfson chip vs. the Sabre. Somehow, I was able to overcome the temptation to order both and compare...


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## Slaughter

Ha, I thought about the same thing and still might order the 11 depending on how much I like the 12. I thought I better wait because the 11 might be all that I need.
  
  Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> I pre-ordered my NFB-12 this morning. I went with this one over the NFB-11 based solely on Kingwa's descriptions of the two units, which made me conclude that my RS-1s are a better match with the Wolfson chip vs. the Sabre. Somehow, I was able to overcome the temptation to order both and compare...


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## BuFFys

20 days left to estimated shipping! Does any one know the usual shipping time to wester Europe?
  I would love that have it before christmas, so i can listen to it instead of my family!!! (joke.... or is it?)


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## vrln

Out of my three packages from Audio-gd: 3 days, 4 days and 12 days (the huge & heavy CD7)... So with some luck yeah, I think it might make it.


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## BuFFys

Quote: 





vrln said:


> Out of my three packages from Audio-gd: 3 days, 4 days and 12 days (the huge & heavy CD7)... So with some luck yeah, I think it might make it.


 

 Nice, i guess you hade DHl shipping?


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## vrln

EMS with all packages...


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## BuFFys

Ahh...
  DHL was the cheapest option on the NFB11/12 to Wester Europe... hopefully it fast, as DHL can be (2 days US to Sweden last time).


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## vinay

I am still trying to understand few things about a DAC in general so what does Mono mean in the below table?
  Does Dual WM8741 mean each chip for each channel(L-R) ? What is applied to headphone section?

 　 
  *[size=small]  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   [/size]  [size=small]What's different between these popular chips
 　[/size]* 
　​[size=x-small]*Dual *[/size]*[size=x-small]WM8741[/size]*​[size=x-small]*ES9018*[/size]​*[size=x-small]AD1955[/size]*​*[size=x-small]AD1852[/size]*​*[size=x-small]WM8740[/size]*​*[size=x-small]SNR[/size]*​[size=x-small]128 DB (Mono)[/size]​[size=x-small]120 DB[/size]​[size=x-small]120DB[/size]​[size=x-small]114DB[/size]​[size=x-small]117DB[/size]​*[size=x-small]DYNAMIC RANGE[/size]*​[size=x-small]128 DB (Mono)[/size]​[size=x-small]129 DB[/size]​[size=x-small]120DB[/size]​[size=x-small]114DB[/size]​[size=x-small]117DB[/size]​
  　 　   

   
  Is the DAC out similar to audio-gd FUN DAC out? how is it different from Line out of FUN?
   
  It would have been nice if there was a option to add a OP-amp in NFB-12 (Not sure of how neutral/musical i like the sound since i listen to all genre of music).


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## Slaughter

That is for each channel since the NFB-12 uses a dual chip designl. Email Audio-GD and ask about the output. They are honest and should be able to give you a good idea. An opamp would defeat the purpose of this amp design and would have probably made it too similar to the FUN. You could either wait for some reviews of the NFB-11 and 12, or purchase the FUN so you can change the sound.

  
  Quote: 





vinay said:


> I am still trying to understand few things about a DAC in general so what does Mono mean in the below table?
> Does Dual WM8741 mean each chip for each channel(L-R) ? What is applied to headphone section?
> 
> 
> ...


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## vrln

Kingwa told me the NFB-12 is as good as the FUN in sound quality, but the FUN has the bigger headphone socket + can be customized more. I´d also recommend you to email them, they have very good customer support in my experience.


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## eimis

I asked audio-gd if NFB-12 can beat Compass and FUN in terms of sound quality. Here's what they answered:
   
  Quote: 





> Dear Sir,
> Via look about the difference of NFB-11 and NFB-12,you can be know:
> 
> The NFB-11 has quite high fidelity, its sound signature is absolutely revealing, neutral and faithful and very detailed. It can show how good or how bad a recording is. If you are afraid of flaws being revealed in the music files, other gears like those applying WM8741 will be better. Our gears that apply WM8741 are designed to sound neutral and revealing but with a little smoothness . Like the   FUN     and    Sparrow,   NFB-3/2.
> ...


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## BuFFys

[size=10.0pt]The information is the same as on the NFB-11 and NFB-12 pages from audio-gd homepage. So nothing new unfourtently =([/size]
[size=10.0pt]I previously mailed kingwa, about the different Power consumption and weight, and the same output power between the NFB-11 and FUN.[/size]
[size=10.0pt]The main differences was that the fun had a larger chassi, Analog RCA input and  customizable OP amps. The No-feedback design do not use OP amps.[/size]
[size=10.0pt]The NFB-11/12 also same to have the same resistors as the FUN version A[/size]
   
[size=10.0pt]So the difference should be quite small, if your not in the need of analog RCA or what to change sound with OP amps. [/size]
[size=10.0pt]Besides the different in price 145USD….[/size]


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## acenes

I sent in a email , they are supposed to email a price back to me..  , I saw $200usd promo + $32 shipping.  I'm pretty excited about this NFB-12 , it has all the connections I need at the lowest price I could find.


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## Slaughter

I am cautiously excited. For the price and size (this thing is small!), I am not expecting a whole lot, but hoping I am wrong. I really hope the sound is not too relaxed or dull.
  
  Quote: 





acenes said:


> I sent in a email , they are supposed to email a price back to me..  , I saw $200usd promo + $32 shipping.  I'm pretty excited about this NFB-12 , it has all the connections I need at the lowest price I could find.


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## shadowlord

when will they ship out ?


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## Slaughter

Audio-Gd website says available Dec 15th.
  
  Quote: 





shadowlord said:


> when will they ship out ?


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## shadowlord

good to know, with a little luck they arrive during the holidays.


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## acenes

And when the goods shipping to USA in December,because is near Christmas,so that will a little late maybe need around 2- 3 weeks,do you mind this?
Best Regards
Edwin
   
I recieved that on November 30th , I didn't mind , Now I wait for the NFB12.


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## Slaughter

I mind. I want it now!
  
  Quote: 





acenes said:


> And when the goods shipping to USA in December,because is near Christmas,so that will a little late maybe need around 2- 3 weeks,do you mind this?
> Best Regards
> Edwin
> 
> I recieved that on November 30th , I didn't mind , Now I wait for the NFB12.


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## mitsu763

I've ordered one yesterday and am looking forward to it. I wanted to order both this and the NFB-11 but they aren't taking orders for the 11 currently. Edwin has been very prompt with emails and I couldn't ask for better customer service. Besides the price, what I like best about these are the dac out to feed another amp.


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## snip

Dang it, I went ahead and ordered me an NFB-11 and an NFB-12, guess I'll get to see which of the DAC chips I like best before getting an NFB-10 
   
  I got my Bijou ready and M3 nearly finished, copious loverly headphones to try so I can't wait to see it. There is only so much strapping tube output stages to Beresford's and fiddling with TDA1443's a man can get time for.
   
   
  //Jan


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## Slaughter

Since I wasn't able to order an 11, I look forward to your thoughts on both. Espcially with those awesome amps.
  
  Quote: 





snip said:


> Dang it, I went ahead and ordered me an NFB-11 and an NFB-12, guess I'll get to see which of the DAC chips I like best before getting an NFB-10
> 
> I got my Bijou ready and M3 nearly finished, copious loverly headphones to try so I can't wait to see it. There is only so much strapping tube output stages to Beresford's and fiddling with TDA1443's a man can get time for.
> 
> ...


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## acenes

I find it hard to wait , The last of the best that I've heard is a Senn 650 w/Cardas , unbalanced Head Room Cosmic , very expensive , over 3k spent at the time , I now believe , money has privilages.  How those that become judges , is not only unqiue but very expensive.


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## acenes

Sorry about our wallet!


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## mbike

I checked with Mr. Ho and he replied that the ACSS is not available on NFB-12.


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## madwolf

Hi mbike,
   
  Thanks for making your first post, So you spoken to Mr Ho [size=medium]何庆华 ?​[/size]
  How did you manage to get him, by phone or email
   
  On the Website it is written all over the pages on NFB12 page
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm
  That it is using ACSS, The Amplifier section of the NFB11 looks exactly like the NFB12


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## mbike

Madwolf:
   
  I sent email to Mr. Ho and asked him both NFB-12 and 11. I agreed that NFB-12 is similar to NFB-11 which should have ACSS. The Chinese web page of NFB-12 did not mentioned ACSS and I asked Mr. HO about the availability of ACSS on NFB-12 and he replied NO. Let me check with him again.
   
  mbike
  
  Quote: 





madwolf said:


> Hi mbike,
> 
> Thanks for making your first post, So you spoken to Mr Ho [size=medium]何庆华 ?​[/size]
> How did you manage to get him, by phone or email
> ...


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## madwolf

Maybe it is due to copyright issue with the CAST technology 
  On the Mandrain (chinese ) version of the website ACSS is refered to as [size=small]CAST技术[/size]


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## haloxt

ACSS and CAST are the same thing, just different names. CAST is trademarked by Krell, and audio-gd used to call it just "Krell's CAST" until people started complaining about trademark infringement, then audio-gd made the name ACSS.


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## BuFFys

Quote: 





mbike said:


> Madwolf:
> 
> I sent email to Mr. Ho and asked him both NFB-12 and 11. I agreed that NFB-12 is similar to NFB-11 which should have ACSS. The Chinese web page of NFB-12 did not mentioned ACSS and I asked Mr. HO about the availability of ACSS on NFB-12 and he replied NO. Let me check with him again.
> 
> ...


 


  Well the chines NFB-11 page also do not mention anything about ACSS, but has CAST as the NFB-12
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB11/NFB11CH.htm


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## lessblue

Is there some way to connect my headphone amp and my powered desktop speakers to the NFB-12 at the same time?


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## Slaughter

No. There are only 1 set of outputs. You would need something like the FUN which has a set of fixed line out and a set of varible line out.

  
  Quote: 





lessblue said:


> Is there some way to connect my headphone amp and my powered desktop speakers to the NFB-12 at the same time?


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## acenes

Who would I email at audio-gd with technical questions ?  Mr. Ho ? First I've heard that name.
   
  I'm beginning to wonder about the ACSS advertising , because I just noticed a high/low gain switch on the front faceplate of the NFB12 and the NFB11 . 
   
  According to their English product literature ACSS doesn't have gain switches, gain was auto adjusted for different headphones when turning the volume control.  I have headphones that are 32ohm, 64ohm, and 300ohm, I may get 600ohm headphones someday.
   
  So , those are questions I should ask audio-gd.


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## Slaughter

The FUN has ACSS and a gain switch. I though I read somewhere that the High gain was ACSS and Low gain was the Diamond Buffer.


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## acenes

Your right , I didn't remember reading this quote from their page,
   
  [size=x-small]The output buffers are Non-feedback. For low impedance, we applied a diamond output stage which is quite less colored than most conventional circuits.[/size]


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## Slaughter

Let us know when you receive a shipping notice, I have a pair of Fisher 002 woodies that should arrive the same time as this amp. It's going to be a good day when they arrive.


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## Slaughter

Shipping starts on Monday.


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## Cankin

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Shipping starts on Monday.


 


  Did you get this update from Edwin?


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## BuFFys

Monday is quiet specefic, i only got this answer:
   
  "Now we are arranging the NFB-12,and because it need to prepare so that we will arrange it shipping near these day."


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## Slaughter

The NFB-12 are arranging shipping at Next Monday,thanks
  Best Regards
  Edwin


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## BuFFys

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> The NFB-12 are arranging shipping at Next Monday,thanks
> Best Regards
> Edwin


 

 Nice, hopefully mine is going to be shipped on monday too. (orded it 22 November). will post when i get the shipping confirmation!


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## BoyNamedSue

That's great news - can't wait to hear impressions when they arrive! I ordered mine with the NFB-10 so it'll probably take longer for me.


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## Elanzer

I ordered one today, and they mentioned that due to the christmas season, it might not be shipped until the end of the month.


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## Slaughter

Make sure you post a comparison to your Sparrow.
  
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> I ordered one today, and they mentioned that due to the christmas season, it might not be shipped until the end of the month.


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## olor1n

Can anyone state how the NFB12 may stack up against the Fun on paper (if you do away with the Fun's versatility as a preamp)? Specifically the effect of the NFB12's dual wolfson as opposed to my Fun's single WM8741, differences in PSU, the pros and cons of doing away with hdam rolling.
   
  The more detailed description of the NFB12's volume control being at the ACSS output stage is interesting. Doesn't the Fun work the same way?
   
  I like the smaller footprint of the NFB12 and am willing to give up a more versatile preamp in the Fun if there are gains to be had elsewhere in the NFB12's implementation.


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## Slaughter

In regards to the FUN, see page 1 of this thread. ACSS works the same on both units. 
  
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Can anyone state how the NFB12 may stack up against the Fun on paper (if you do away with the Fun's versatility as a preamp)? Specifically the effect of the NFB12's dual wolfson as opposed to my Fun's single WM8741, differences in PSU, the pros and cons of doing away with hdam rolling.
> 
> The more detailed description of the NFB12's volume control being at the ACSS output stage is interesting. Doesn't the Fun work the same way?
> 
> I like the smaller footprint of the NFB12 and am willing to give up a more versatile preamp in the Fun if there are gains to be had elsewhere in the NFB12's implementation.


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## mikop

Anxiously waiting... Wish I had ordered it earlier so that it may ship on Monday, but mine are "maybe" for shipping this month.


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## Elanzer

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Make sure you post a comparison to your Sparrow.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
  I won't be able to do a direct comparison since the reason I bought the NFB-12 is because I'm mailing my DT990 + Sparrow to my brother for christmas, giving myself an upgrade in the process.
   
  Now I just have my LD MK III connected to my Xonar DX until the NFB-12 arrives. The change in sound is frustrating, everything is more condensed and cold, I hate it. Almost want to unwrap his present and just put the Sparrow back.


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## FeiJai

Can this be used with headphones and 2.1 speakers? Do you connect the speakers, via RCA, into DAC Out? I'm not tech savvy and want to be sure if it is compatible with what I am looking for. Thanks.


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## Elanzer

Quote: 





feijai said:


> Can this be used with headphones and 2.1 speakers? Do you connect the speakers, via RCA, into DAC Out? I'm not tech savvy and want to be sure if it is compatible with what I am looking for. Thanks.


 

 If they're powered speakers with RCA connection, yeah you can use the DAC out. Powered speakers are speakers the amplifier built in, so you would still be doing DAC -> amp -> speakers.
   
  DAC out is very similar to a headphone out (which would also work with your speakers), the only significant difference is the DAC out is set to a fixed volume level and goes through less stages of the amp.


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## HT cOz

Hello Everyone,
   
  1st Post!  Woohoo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I'm on the Pre-Order list for the NFB-12 and am very excited.  My system is not headphone based and is instead two speakers driven by an integrated tube amp.  (See avitar)  I am wondering if I should be looking at the NFB-3 though?  They seem so similiar and it does seem like a nice feature to be able to use the NFB-12s pre-amp.
   
  Any thoughts of the NFB-12 vs. NFB-3?  I emailed Audio GD with the same question.  It does seem strange that the NFB-3 still uses the CS8416 when the WM8805 looks better on paper?
   
  Cheers,
 Robert


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## FeiJai

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks.


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## Poetik

Would the DAC out work with going to my onkyo receiver then out to my speakers?


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## BuFFys

Quote: 





poetik said:


> Would the DAC out work with going to my onkyo receiver then out to my speakers?


 

 Yes, it would, but I would recommend to get a dedicated DAC, if you not intending to use the Amp part. You’re only using 50% of the product, so maybe a NFB-3 would suit you better.
 You use the 2 RCA "DAC out" as you would any interconnector, e.g. like connecting a CD-player.


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## Poetik

Ahh ok, I was just making sure since I was thinking about replacing my HDP with one of these.  I think I'll bite and report back for those who're interested in a hdp vs nfb-12 showdown.


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## BuFFys

[size=medium] ​[/size]

      [size=medium] 
  sorry for my assumption that you only needed a DAC. It always good to check, and the NFB-12 will be more like the Nuforce Icon, but without speaker connection. and added coaxial/optical input. 
   
  That would be a nice comparison, as i have seen some people asking about it in the NFB-11 thread. My GF has the Nuforce Icon+S1+W1 setup withs is nice, but i don't feel that the Icon is a good headphone amp, not my ms1000 or Pro900 anyway. 
   ​[/size]


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## yupoet

Are there any discussion about the comparison between NFB12 and NFB10WM? They are both using dual WM8741, the only difference is that NFB10WM is balanced DAC + balanced headphone amp.Will there be a great advantage for the sound quality ? considering I am using Fun in the past and I am now going to upgrade my DAC + Headphone. BTW my headphone is Geman Maestro GMP450. Thank you in advance for any sugesstion


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## Elanzer

Well, are you going to be using balance-cabled headphones or are you going to be using a standard 6.3mm stereo jack terminated headphone?
   
  If you aren't using balanced headphones, there's not really much point in getting it.


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## Slaughter

The Icon is weak in comparison to the NFB-12, actually the HDP has weak output compared to the 12 as well. The NFB-12 has a beefier power supply from what I can tell. And the NFB-12 is being sold at cost I believe and the HDP is being marked up some ridiculous amount because it looks good and they have to make money. The HDP also uses an opamp (OP2134 I believe) that generally gets swapped out in most amps due to its fuzzy, flabby sound. I would expect the NFB-12 to sound better in most situations unless you just don't like the sound flavor.
   
  HDP - 288mW @ 30ohms / 152mW @ 300ohms
  NFB-12 - 3.5W @ 25ohms / 300mW @ 300ohms
   
   

  
  Quote: 





buffys said:


>


 


> [size=medium] ​[/size]


 


> [size=medium]
> sorry for my assumption that you only needed a DAC. It always good to check, and the NFB-12 will be more like the Nuforce Icon, but without speaker connection. and added coaxial/optical input.
> 
> That would be a nice comparison, as i have seen some people asking about it in the NFB-11 thread. My GF has the Nuforce Icon+S1+W1 setup withs is nice, but i don't feel that the Icon is a good headphone amp, not my ms1000 or Pro900 anyway.
> ​[/size]


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## thuantran

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Slaughter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> the NFB-12 is being sold at cost I believe and the HDP is being marked up some ridiculous amount because it looks good and they have to make money.


 
  You made it sound like audio-gd does not have to make money .


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## Slaughter

Yeah, I realized that after, but didn't have time to edit it. Obviously AGD has to make money, but it's cool that they release promo products which allow us to get some high quality gear at a much lower price than a retail price. I would even say their regular priced gear is of equal or better quality than a lot of other gear priced much higher. I wish the NFB-12 had a better looking front panel, but then we would probably have to pay more. I like their no nonsense approach.
  
  Quote: 





thuantran said:


> Quote:
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> ...


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## Poetik

Are any of you guys gonna be using this with the audio-gd digital interface? I'm trying to gauge if I should buy one of those or not.  I emailed audio-gd and they said it would warrant an improvement but just how much of an improvement would be left up to my ears to decide.


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## Dynobot

Quote: 





buffys said:


> Monday is quiet specefic, i only got this answer:
> 
> "Now we are arranging the NFB-12,and because it need to prepare so that we will arrange it shipping near these day."


 

 That means they are putting your NFB-12 together now and because of that it will ship soon.


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## vrln

Quote: 





thuantran said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The price will go up after the initial run, it´s more of a promo product to advertise the move to the Sabre32 chip  Fantastic value, I´m really looking forward to seeing the first reviews. So close to ordering one too, even though I don´t need any new gear...


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## Uri Cohen

I don't have the money for it right now but I want to see how more costly it will get after the first run?


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## Slaughter

I'm not sure if this is the reason, but the after the 12 was announced the 10WM now has the 8805 SPDIF chip, so I think the 12 was to test out the new chip. The 11 is a steal and I wish I would have ordered both the 11 and 12.

  
  Quote: 





vrln said:


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## FeiJai

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I have another question that is off topic. I was looking at the Audio-GD FUN and it has DAC out, Line In and Line out. What would be the difference in connecting speakers, via RCA, into line in or line out as opposed to Dac out. Thanks.


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## olor1n

DAC out of the FUN is fixed volume and bypasses the Fun's amp section. Volume would have to be controlled through your speakers (if they're active). Line out is variable meaning it goes through the Fun's amp and ACSS stage (high gain). Volume can be adjusted on the Fun although it's recommended the volume dial be between 10 and 2 o'clock for best results. Line in on the Fun will allow you to connect an external device (ie another DAC) for the Fun to amplify.


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## BuFFys

You should never connect speakers with a headphone amp! use a speaker amp!
   
  Line-in: this is used for connecting source to amp in the FUN. you should only connect speaker here if you want to use them as a microphone! (so NO!), This connection is missing in the NFB-12.
   
  Line-out: this is used for preamp, connection to a power-amp. So if you turn the volume-knob the signal will change. this is the same as the DAC-out the NFB-12 to variable output-level signal.
   
  DAC-out: this is used to send out a fixed output-level signal, same as the NFB-12 DAC-out set to fixed output-level. used to connect to a normal amp.
   
  None of this will work directly to passive speakers, only to active speakers!
  And if you really need to connect them to passive speaker, you should use connect them where you connect your headphone. The result can be sound very bad!
   
  You can change between fixed/variable with a jumper in the NFB-12, while in FUN you have two different outputs.


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## jermng

Anyone thinks the NFB12 will be an upgrade over a DACMagic?


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## FeiJai

Thanks for the quick replies and helping me out.
   
  Quote:


olor1n said:


> DAC out of the FUN is fixed volume and bypasses the Fun's amp section. Volume would have to be controlled through your speakers (if they're active). Line out is variable meaning it goes through the Fun's amp and ACSS stage (high gain). Volume can be adjusted on the Fun although it's recommended the volume dial be between 10 and 2 o'clock for best results. Line in on the Fun will allow you to connect an external device (ie another DAC) for the Fun to amplify.


 
   
  Quote: 





buffys said:


>


 


> You should never connect speakers with a headphone amp! use a speaker amp!
> 
> Line-in: this is used for connecting source to amp in the FUN. you should only connect speaker here if you want to use them as a microphone! (so NO!), This connection is missing in the NFB-12.
> 
> ...


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## littletree76

NFB-12 is built with dual WM8741 which supersede dual WN8740 built into DACMagic for better dynamic range. But DACMagic come with default up-sampling to 192kHz/24-bit through proprietary curve-fitting algorithm regardless of source resolution / sampling rate and also three-position digital filter. DACMagic has more input options (two sets of coaxial/optical inputs and a USB input) and output options (unbalanced RCA and balanced XLR outputs) than most DAC models in market.
   
  As far as sound quality is concerned, comparison can be made when I have received NFB-12 from Audio-GD.


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## jermng

Quote: 





littletree76 said:


> NFB-12 is built with dual WM8741 which supersede dual WN8740 built into DACMagic for better dynamic range. But DACMagic come with default up-sampling to 192kHz/24-bit through proprietary curve-fitting algorithm regardless of source resolution / sampling rate and also three-position digital filter. DACMagic has more input options (two sets of coaxial/optical inputs and a USB input) and output options (unbalanced RCA and balanced XLR outputs) than most DAC models in market.
> 
> As far as sound quality is concerned, comparison can be made when I have received NFB-12 from Audio-GD.


 

 You've got the DACMagic too? Cool! Can't wait to hear your impressions and comparison between the two.


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## Poetik

I couldn't wait anymore so I ordered up one of these.  From the stats it seems like nothing can beat the performance of this unit for the price.


----------



## FeiJai

Are the NFB-12 in full production and ready to sell or in pre-production and still being tweaked/tested?


----------



## Ash

I am in the process of ordering both the NFB-12 as well as the NFB-3. It will be intersting to see how these stack up against the DACmagic!


----------



## jermng

Just ordered mine too .... Couldn't order the NFB-11 cos there were too many orders


----------



## Slaughter

The NFB-12 was never in a tweak/testing phase. It's not that different than some other designs that were already in place at Audio-GD.

  
  Quote: 





feijai said:


> Are the NFB-12 in full production and ready to sell or in pre-production and still being tweaked/tested?


----------



## Poetik

I'm curious to hear a nfb-11 too but everything points to it being pretty sterile sounding.  Also if this has any performance close to the HDP (which I believe it will or maybe exceed) I'll probably sell the HDP off.


----------



## acenes

Will using the NFB12 via USB with a desktop that already has a motherboard coaxial output cause any conflict problems ?


----------



## BuFFys

[size=medium]It should not, but you will only be able to have one of the outputs on in your Operating System.[/size]
[size=medium]But i could recommend trying the coaxial if you have no ground problem on your computer. I think it could have less jitter then the USB if am not wrong?[/size]
   
[size=medium]I will be using optical with my macbook pro for two reasons, fist the NFB-12 have a great spdif interface, and my macbook pro just has 2 USB ports… that are too close ….[/size]


----------



## acenes

Thanks, Only one or the other - not both.  The motherboard coaxial is 16bit/48kHz , I was thinking about using the USB because the DAC in the NFB12 was better? Yes?
  
  Quote: 





buffys said:


> [size=medium]It should not, but you will only be able to have one of the outputs on in your Operating System.[/size]
> [size=medium]But i could recommend trying the coaxial if you have no ground problem on your computer. I think it could have less jitter then the USB if am not wrong?[/size]
> 
> [size=medium]I will be using optical with my macbook pro for two reasons, fist the NFB-12 have a great spdif interface, and my macbook pro just has 2 USB ports… that are too close ….[/size]


----------



## Slaughter

Using coax, optical or USB, you are using the DAC in the NFB-12. If you cannot change your motherboard to output to be bitperfect or 16/44.1 (for standard media), then I would use USB to avoid the motherboard's conversion to 48kHz. It has been noted that the Wolfson chip is very picky with the USB interface, but I would let your ears decide before possibly looking at a USB/Spdif interface, like the hiface or audio-gd converter.

  
  Quote: 





acenes said:


> Thanks, Only one or the other - not both.  The motherboard coaxial is 16bit/48kHz , I was thinking about using the USB because the DAC in the NFB12 was better? Yes?
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


----------



## jermng

littletree76 said:


> NFB-12 is built with dual WM8741 which supersede dual WN8740 built into DACMagic for better dynamic range. But DACMagic come with default up-sampling to 192kHz/24-bit through proprietary curve-fitting algorithm regardless of source resolution / sampling rate and also three-position digital filter. DACMagic has more input options (two sets of coaxial/optical inputs and a USB input) and output options (unbalanced RCA and balanced XLR outputs) than most DAC models in market.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





 


Not to mention the low jitter ...


----------



## runnin17

Any updated shipping date for the NFB-12??
   
  Ordered mine in late november.


----------



## Slaughter

I sent an email yesterday and have not recieved a response. They ship on Mondays and that was the last time the shipping page was updated on their site, so I am hoping they get them out this coming Monday.
  
  Quote: 





runnin17 said:


> Any updated shipping date for the NFB-12??
> 
> Ordered mine in late november.


----------



## SpoolinEclipse

Sent an email on the 21st, and recieved this reply:
   
  Yes, We are burning and final testing. I think can shipping some within this month.
 Sorry for the delay, because we got the PCB is delay than our expect.
 Kingwa


----------



## Slaughter

Ugh, I know they never promised a date, but the website said the 15th. They could have sent an email or updated the website.

  
  Quote: 





spoolineclipse said:


> Sent an email on the 21st, and recieved this reply:
> 
> Yes, We are burning and final testing. I think can shipping some within this month.
> Sorry for the delay, because we got the PCB is delay than our expect.
> Kingwa


----------



## SpoolinEclipse

Yeah I hear ya, hopefully it wont be too much longer.


----------



## acenes

Edwin replied yesterday to my email and predicted next Wednesday , which would be the 29th , for my order that I made Nov. 29th.


----------



## jermng

I was told mine would ship next Monday on the 27th.


----------



## mikop

Hope you guys get yours soon.
   
  The sooner yours ship, the sooner they can start working on mine!


----------



## BuFFys

[size=10pt]I emailed them yesterday about shipping, and what’s included, as the webpage, stated on line coaxial cable on the specs it said optical cable. [/size][size=10pt]Here the I got answer:[/size]
   
  [size=10pt][size=x-small]The NFB-12 will include AC power cable,Opt cable and USB cable,not include the Canare coaxial cable,thanks.
 The NFB-12 will be start shipping at next Monday
 Best Regards
 Edwin[/size][/size]


----------



## dubai2000

Sounds good - I ordered mine today - kind of a Christmas gift.


----------



## Jupe

Has anyone gotten theirs yet? I'm really interested in hearing people's impressions before I buy my own.


----------



## Slaughter

Haven't shipped yet. Should be tomorrow or Wednesday. Keep checking the shipping page - http://www.audio-gd.com/ConsignmentGlobal.htm
  
  Quote: 





jupe said:


> Has anyone gotten theirs yet? I'm really interested in hearing people's impressions before I buy my own.


----------



## runnin17

Thanks for the link to the consignment page. I will keep checking


----------



## neil1138

Hopefully Kingwa is still taking orders. I'm trying to purchase the NFB-12 for use with my Denon D2000. At this price point, it's such a steal. With all of the good remarks about the Compass, I'd be stupid not to try it out.


----------



## BuFFys

It´s just NFB-11 that kingwa has stoped the preorders on. Haven´t hard anything on the NFB-12, but he has some email problems atm =(


----------



## neil1138

Update to shipping: 
   
  http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm


----------



## j2kei

aww that is really such a shame that he isnt taking anymore preorders. ive been trying to get my order in just before the usb issue


----------



## BuFFys

If I understand the page correctly you still have a chance of pre-ordering a NFB-12 before 1 jan. and it can be shipped by 28 jan. but if you order a NFB-12 (and/or maybe NFB-11) you will get a discount but the shipping will be much later. after february.


----------



## neil1138

Quote: 





buffys said:


>


 


> If I understand the page correctly you still have a chance of pre-ordering a NFB-12 before 1 jan. and it can be shipped by 28 jan. but if you order a NFB-12 (and/or maybe NFB-11) you will get a discount but the shipping will be much later. after february.


 


  That's what I gleaned as well so I ended up just springing for the Sparrow version A. I've read that it works well with my D2000 so all is not lost. To all who got in the pre-order, let us know how it sounds when you get it!


----------



## BuFFys

The Sparrow Version A seams to be quite close to the NFB-12. And you will probably get it shipped quicker then my NFB-12 that i pre-ordered a month ago 
   
  But i saw that the Sparrow don't have the DAC out, as the NFB-12 has.


----------



## Elanzer

They must have got a ton of NFB-12 orders. I bet Kingwa is kicking himself for not setting the promo price higher. Glad I got my order in.

  
  Quote:  





> That's what I gleaned as well so I ended up just springing for the Sparrow version A. I've read that it works well with my D2000 so all is not lost. To all who got in the pre-order, let us know how it sounds when you get it!


 

  
  The Sparrow is a still very good, and pretty much equivalent unit. You're only really losing out on the extras connections and controls which you may not need, SQ itself should be very similar.
   
  In my case, I decided to get the NFB-12 to use it as my dedicated DAC and semi-portable unit for travelling. Sparrow fit the bill fine at the time and didn't disappoint in the slightest, but I didn't see myself getting a tube amp and some speakers in future. You know, upgradeitis and all.


----------



## Poetik

So the NFB-12 is basically the same thing as the sparrow right? What is the extra dac chip used for?


----------



## BuFFys

If you compare the NFB-12 to Sparrow Version A After 9 Dec (new SPDIF interface) the are quite close.
  The Differences that I found are:
  * NFB-12 hase dual WM8741
  * NFB-12 Has 2 RCA for Dac-out with can be fixed/veriable signal.
  * NFB-12 is 0.1kg heavier and drains 2 more watts (According to spec).
   
  And the Most importend thing!
  NFB-12 is 200USD (promo).
  Sparrow Version A(USB) is 240USD.
  So the NFB-12 maybe is the replacement for the sparrow? as Kingwa said that the sparrow and fun cannot be improved more?
   
  Well, with two chips, you can handle each channel in a single chip, and get out better performance. in this case better SNR. the having 2 channels in a single chip.


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





buffys said:


>


 


> If you compare the NFB-12 to Sparrow Version A After 9 Dec (new SPDIF interface) the are quite close.
> The Differences that I found are:
> * NFB-12 hase dual WM8741
> * NFB-12 Has 2 RCA for Dac-out with can be fixed/veriable signal.
> ...


 


  Thanks for the clarifying that and that helps a ton.  Audio-GD seems to have a winner here and can't wait to hear impressions from those people who ordered back in november.


----------



## BuFFys

I gotten a bit bored at work today and went in tho Audio-GD chines forum with google translate. in a thread about shipping of the NFB-12 i found this following post at 12/21/2010:
我们骨干员工出国游去了，发货会有所拖延。Google translate -> We travel abroad to key employees, and delivery will be delayed.
     
  Found this on: http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&Id=25201
   
        This and the announcement about stoping preordes, means that the units have a good chance for further delays, but not further then 28 jan....


----------



## Jupe

I hadn't seen your post, BuFFys, and had sent an email for clarification. It was confirmed that yes, if you order any of the products (namely the NFB-12) before January 1st, it will be shipped by January 28th at the latest. After the 1st, you can still order their products, but they will not be done in time to be shipped out before the festival (I guess they're really backed up!). Since they don't get back to the office until after the 10th of February, estimated shipping will be delayed until the 15th at the earliest (which makes any January-orders a pre-order). Because of that delay, some of their products will have a small discount.
   
  I'm not sure how obvious that was to everyone else when they first read it, but I hope that clears up anyone else's queries about the message.
  I myself still cannot decide if I'm patient enough to get the discount, or if I should just order it tonight and end my indecision...


----------



## BuFFys

[size=10pt][size=10pt]It´s always good with confirmation! But unfortunately the window for ordering is less then one day =(, if you not up for the discount and wait![/size][/size]


----------



## kruegel

I asked about the NFB-12 a few days ago and was informed that I cannot order it right now.


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





kruegel said:


> I asked about the NFB-12 a few days ago and was informed that I cannot order it right now.


 

  
  Odd, because I was given the impression that I could place my order immediately. Perhaps you could follow up with them (if you're quick)?
  My email was answered with 4hrs, so I don't if that was lucky timing or what, but at least the email problems seem to have disappeared.


----------



## j2kei

wow that would really suck. i waited to order the nfb-11 and now they cancelled it, so the only one left that attracts me nfb-12 and now we can't order it again?!?


----------



## Slaughter

I just got an email from Edwin. Mine should go out Jan 2nd or 3rd. Hopefully that's when all of them are going out.


----------



## Jupe

I pulled the trigger and put my order in... I just couldn't force myself to wait the couple additional weeks on top of the month that I'm already waiting.
  Can't wait to hear some first impressions for everyone who was a bit faster on their purchase


----------



## movi

just got an email back about availability. you can still order an NFB-12 currently.


----------



## kruegel

Yeah I e-mailed again and this time I was told I could order it. I think the key is to keep the e-mails very straight and to the point.


----------



## vrln

I just sent an email asking for an NFB-12 too. I want to try out a dual Wolfson  It will be perfect for my PC.


----------



## Denys

May I ask a (stupid) question ???? The last of the year, I promise !! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  With the NFB-12, may I use RCA cable to my tube amp ? and this way I could choose between my tube headphone amp or the NFB 12 ???
   
  Is this possible? If so, I'll put my DACmagic for sale and try the NFB12... this way, I'll know a bit about Audio-GD...
   
  Thanks for your time
   
  Denys


----------



## pasgod

Yes, there is a dac rca output on NFB 12.


----------



## Sparky14

NFB-12 & 11 does have a DAC out. So, yes, you can use it as a preamp and feed directly to an amp.
   
  I wouldn't sell that DacMagic until you actually get the NFB-12 though....audio-gd has a pretty good backlog of orders to produce right now, and not many people to work on it.
   
  Hang on a week, as I'll have a few things to test out and report back on:
   
  NFB-11 arrived yesterday.
  Emotiva's well liked USP-1 preamp and UPA-2 amp arrives on Wednesday.
   
  This will give me a good chance to test out the NFB-11 versus a good preamp.


----------



## FeiJai

I know these are not out to the masses yet, but will the NFB-12 be able to drive the Beyerdynamic DT770 600 ohms? I am contemplating on either the 250 or 600 ohms and some threads that I have read suggests that the 600 ohms version is the best.


----------



## Slaughter

Just check around the forum to see how well the FUN and Sparrow work with 600 ohm headphones since the amp is very similar as far as power output. 6Moons reviewed the M-Stage which has similar output and felt it was lacking for 600 ohm cans. You need a lot of voltage and a fair amount of current. Audio-GD publishes current at 600ohms, but I don't think Vp-p is available. The 600ohm Beyers push 750ohms in the mid-bass region.


----------



## Elanzer

My 600-Ohm T1 drive perfectly off the Sparrow, the volume sitting at about 10-11 o'clock for comfort with lots of headroom. NFB-12/FUN have the same output, so it's plenty. There was not much difference going to the LD MKIII, which has over twice the power output of the Sparrow for 600-Ohm, so they were well fed to begin with. You'd probably want to flip the gain switch on the NFB-12 to the +12 setting.


----------



## movi

order placed!


----------



## lessblue

If only it had 2 outputs. I need to feed a headphone amp and my active desktop speakers.


----------



## panda-R

ugh, i'm emailing them to get a confirmation of shipping price + paypal fee so i can order!~!! the agony!


----------



## acenes

The agony for me was deciding to order the NFB12 before the NFB11 because I thought I would get the NFB12 before the NFB11.  Now I cannot get the NFB11 with the Sabre 9018 , when I purchased the NFB12 in the email I stated that I would purchase the NFB11 later , I wonder if....


----------



## panda-R

can anyone confirm how much the total price with shipping and paypal fee is to USA/CAN? What is the prefered shipping method?
   
  thx thx


----------



## sillysally

Quote: 





panda-r said:


> can anyone confirm how much the total price with shipping and paypal fee is to USA/CAN? What is the prefered shipping method?
> 
> thx thx


 

 Here is the link for shipping charges.
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Shipping%20cost.htm


----------



## panda-R

Quote: 





sillysally said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 thanks sillysally, i was wondering what they're charging for paypal fee ontop of that. I'll just send them an email but incase anyone wants to get back to me sooner that would be cool too.


----------



## acenes

The PayPal charge for me to the US was close to Seven Dollars , if that helps , I hope so.


----------



## FeiJai

I just got a reply from Audio-GD regarding shipping cost. I live in Canada and will be purchasing the NFB-12. It cost $190 for the unit (5% discount), $31.5 with EMS and $7.40 for paypal fees. That is a total of $228.90 USD for the item.


----------



## acenes

The NFB12 cost me $244.90 , and I ordered it Nov. 29th 2010 .  A steal even if it would cost two hundred more , I just wonder why it doesn't include a 75ohm BNC connector , that would of put the upgradability of this unit over the top.


----------



## Slaughter

We will have to wait to see how much of a steal this DAC and AMP combined in a 6in x 8in box is. I am keeping my expectations low for such a small product.


----------



## acenes

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> We will have to wait to see how much of a steal this DAC and AMP combined in a 6in x 8in box is. I am keeping my expectations low for such a small product.


 

 I've been on the hunt for many years for a product such as this , small as you call it maybe , but equal to what big out there is , makes me think of "If it's too good to be true" , at least I will haven't spent too much to make me feel like a fool.


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> We will have to wait to see how much of a steal this DAC and AMP combined in a 6in x 8in box is. I am keeping my expectations low for such a small product.


 

 Well luckily the worst case scenario is it'll still sound better than your creative x-fi cards haha.


----------



## vrln

The price is pretty unreal. I´ll keep my expectations low, but on paper it looks seriously good. If this would be by a western company, the price would be 500$+ easily. An NFB-11 vs. NFB-12 shootout would be interesting too.


----------



## Slaughter

My X-fi is coax out to an Entec DAC. I am not convinced that a DAC can make much if any improvement (different sound doesn't mean improvement), thats why I jumped on the NFB-12 at this price. Same major components as the NFB-3, but much smaller and has a solid state amp I can try since I have only ever used tube. We'll see. I am sure I can sell pretty quick if I find no improvement. 
  
  Quote: 





poetik said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## yamahaha

Quote: 





lessblue said:


> If only it had 2 outputs. I need to feed a headphone amp and my active desktop speakers.


 

 You could consider a splitter (or a Y connector) if you're a cable nihilist.  It can be had pretty cheaply if you don't want to invest a lot.


----------



## vinay

When you order a DAC do you specify a particular cable for power rating?


----------



## runnin17

The shipping page hasn't been updated since DEC 20. Anyone have any idea when these things are supposed to ship? I was one of the first to order an NFB-12 and I am getting a little inpatient.


----------



## panda-R

Quote: 





feijai said:


> I just got a reply from Audio-GD regarding shipping cost. I live in Canada and will be purchasing the NFB-12. It cost $190 for the unit (5% discount), $31.5 with EMS and $7.40 for paypal fees. That is a total of $228.90 USD for the item.


 


  I was told that if you pre-order now and the unit ships after Feb 15th, then you get the 5% discount. It doesn't start apply right now. Here's hoping it ships earlier than later.


----------



## llama_egg

Quote: 





runnin17 said:


> The shipping page hasn't been updated since DEC 20. Anyone have any idea when these things are supposed to ship? I was one of the first to order an NFB-12 and I am getting a little inpatient.


 

 I sent them an email requesting the total price to Canada, and in their reply they commented "_Because now is near the [size=x-small]Chinese Spring Festival,and now we have too much order need to finished them until 28th Jan,so that if you pre-order now,we need to shipping out to you after 15th Feb,do you mind it?".[/size]_[size=x-small] Bit Engrish-y, but yeah, sounds like orders now will be shipping out in February.[/size]


----------



## BuFFys

Quote: 





vinay said:


> When you order a DAC do you specify a particular cable for power rating?


 

  
   
        Yes, first you need to choose the power rating, and secondly what socket you want. (UK and EU (schuko), have booth same power rating but different wall sockets).


----------



## FeiJai

Quote: 





llama_egg said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   


  Quote: 





panda-r said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You save $10 if you can wait a month's time. Either way, they have stopped taking orders as of yesterday so all orders for the NFB-12 will be considered pre-orders.


----------



## panda-R

well in the end i'm all confused but i sent them my 'order' or 'pre-order' yesterday. They said if it ships after Feb 15th then I'll get the discount but I rather have it sooner so $10 isn't a big deal for me!
   
  Lets go audio-gd! you can do it!


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





vrln said:


> The price is pretty unreal. I´ll keep my expectations low, but on paper it looks seriously good. If this would be by a western company, the price would be 500$+ easily. An NFB-11 vs. NFB-12 shootout would be interesting too.


 

      Quote:


slaughter said:


> My X-fi is coax out to an Entec DAC. I am not convinced that a DAC can make much if any improvement (different sound doesn't mean improvement), thats why I jumped on the NFB-12 at this price. Same major components as the NFB-3, but much smaller and has a solid state amp I can try since I have only ever used tube. We'll see. I am sure I can sell pretty quick if I find no improvement.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 


  To both of you here's a quote from currawong on the nfb-11 thread:
   
  There's a huge difference between a WM8740 (used in a lot of cheap gear these days) and the WM8741, which is used in high-end DACs such as the PS Audio Perfectwave.  You should read the data sheets. The two owners of the Perfectwave who compared it to the Reference 7 (with the V4 DSP, not the current V5) liked the Perfectwave a little better. Though most of the capability of a DAC has to do with everything besides the DA chip, the chips themselves can be tuned to sound how the designer wants via the implentation of the chip itself, such as how rapidly the filter rolls off at the 22.5 kHz cut-off as well as other things.  From my own listening, I thought the Sparrow, with a WM8741 sounded better than the ES9018 NFB-11 by a small margin, so I don't think this decision is a mistake. Of course this is low-end gear we're talking about and I haven't ever had the chance to compare them in high-end gear.
   
  --------------------------------------------------------------
   
  So I mean if someone like currawong likes the sparrow better than the nfb-11 then going with the nfb-12 is a no brainer especially since the nfb-12 will be better than the sparrow. 
   
  From what I gather, some of the competitors in the price range are:
   
  The NFB-11 which costs $275 (when you could buy it) and uses that nice ES9018 chip in it.
   
  The fiio E7/E9 combo which costs $200 and uses a WM8740
   
  The Hifiman EF2 which costs $189 and uses a PCM2702
   
  I'm sure there are more so feel free to add to the list if you want.
   
  Also Slaughter made some comparisons based on the specs of the nuforce HDP ($450) compared to the NFB-12 earlier in the thread.  It looks like on paper this thing is a little beast in the box and while I'm tempering my expectations too, I'm sure we will all be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## runnin17

This is getting a bit ridiculous. First they said Dec 15th, now they are saying Feb 15th. What!!!!!
   
  I am all for being patient, but the least they can do is update their customers!


----------



## Handberg

I just ordered the NFB-12, can't wait to get it!


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





runnin17 said:


> This is getting a bit ridiculous. First they said Dec 15th, now they are saying Feb 15th. What!!!!!
> 
> I am all for being patient, but the least they can do is update their customers!


 


  People who placed orders for products before January 1st 2011 will have their orders shipped out to them before February 1st. The "after fed 15th" thing is for people who order after Dec 31st 2010.


----------



## steveotron

Hi all, I'm totally new to DAC/AMPs so take it a little easy on me.
   
  I'm currently looking to get the HD 650 and AKG K701, and I've been looking at combos and dedicated units to pair with them.
   
  The main units that have interested me are the Matrix Mini-I, Matrix Cube, Yulong D100, HDP, and now the NFB-12.
   
  I'm a little hesitant to get the Mini-I just because it's been out a little longer than the Cube, does not have ASRC, and the Cube's AMP is supposedly a little better, but there haven't been many head-to-head comparisons on the forums. I'm also not planning on going balanced any time soon, so that one benefit of the Mini-I over the Cube does not really matter too much too me. The main thing is has going for me is aesthetics, but I don't really want to invest in something just because it looks a bit better.
   
  The Cube, on the other hand, seems to have everything the Mini-I has but with ASRC and a lower price point. I probably would not hesitate to get the unit, but there have been quality control issues (mainly cosmetic) that have been raised in the main thread and it seems like it would be wise to wait it out to see how the issue is addressed.
   
  The Yulong D100 seems to be a great unit, but it costs more than twice what the NFB-12 does. I'd rather use the difference to fund the headphones.
   
  All the aforementioned units have integrated AMPs, but when I reading the Audio-GD's site, it states that the AMP is discrete despite being all in one unit. I'm hoping if someone could clarify this for me. For the price it seems to be a steal and coud rival something like the HDP. Anyways, I was wondering if someone could speculate on how it would match with the headphones I mentioned (sound and ability to properly power them). Also, since the NFB-12 is relatively inexpensive, that leaves me with the opportunity to get a separate AMP if I want. Lastly, what would be the main difference between this and the Audio-GD FUN in terms of features and sound (I'm guessing it's mainly tweakability), as there is a $200 difference between the two units.
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Slaughter

I ordered on 11/22 and received this message 12/30:
   
  Sorry about the delay,and we will arrange your NFB-12 shipping out at next 2nd - 3rd Jan
  Edwin
   
   
   
  Quote: 





runnin17 said:


> This is getting a bit ridiculous. First they said Dec 15th, now they are saying Feb 15th. What!!!!!
> 
> I am all for being patient, but the least they can do is update their customers!


----------



## FeiJai

Quote: 





steveotron said:


> Hi all, I'm totally new to DAC/AMPs so take it a little easy on me.
> 
> I'm currently looking to get the HD 650 and AKG K701, and I've been looking at combos and dedicated units to pair with them.
> 
> ...


 

 The sound signature between the FUN and NFB-12 are suppose to sound similar. The FUN has more input/outputs and can be tweaked (OPA) whereas the NFB-12 is a fixed unit and cannot be tweaked. I recall on their website, based on pictures they posted, that many of their products paired well with the Denon D2000/D5000, AKG k271, Grados (can't recall which model) and the Sennheiser HD600 or HD650.


----------



## llama_egg

Just ordered one as my first DAC/Amp, I'm too happy with waiting till February, but it should be a good purchase none-the-less! Thing looks like a beast on paper, and with the promo price + January discount how can I go wrong?
   
  Either way, should be a good starting unit.


----------



## dubai2000

How did you get messages from them? When sending a mail through their website I only get an automated answer and when using the kin-wa acount the mail gets returned. Am getting slightly annoyed here.


----------



## llama_egg

Never had to use that address, just send an email requesting the total to "audio-gd@126.com", you get an automatic reply stating they received it then within 24 hours you normally get a reply. I've shot them a few emails and it was always the same day I got a reply, just be patient, it _is_ a holiday for them right now after all.


----------



## movi

for those who ordered a while ago, i'm sure they'll send your orders sooner. i ordered dec 29 or so and am also in the "shipping before Jan 28" category, but i'm sure those of you who ordered way back will get yours before then.


----------



## dubai2000

Let's hope so.....but some kind of info from their side would have been appreciated. Anyway, if the sound of the unit is as hoped for, it'll be worth while waiting and being a bit impatient 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Jor-El

Recent information received from the UK Agent's side says that
 "..Audio GD have personally assured us that the NFB-12 will ship within the next 2-3 weeks.. and ..Based on this information..you can expect to receive them before the end of the month.."

 Hope it arrives by then.


----------



## dubai2000

Fingers crossed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and thx for the update.


----------



## Poultrygeist

Anyone have an idea how the NFB-12 would compare to the Gigawork 24/192 DAC which can be purchased preassembled in a case for about the same price?


----------



## dodap

I just got the following answer from Edwin from audio-gd:
   
   
  Quote: 





> Because [size=10pt]now we had got many order that we need to finished the make until 28th Jan. So begin 1th Jan we can't accept orders and ensure can shipping before 28th Jan. So that if you order now,we need to shipping out to you after the 15th Feb.So if you pre-order now,you can get the 5% off discount[/size]


 
  Having a cheapo DIYEDEN SVDDAC04 for my Denon D2000, I am still not decided whether I should try this still unproven 200 € piece or the well known and well regarded YULONG D100 in order to improve my setup.


----------



## igotnojob

Quote: 





dodap said:


> Having a cheapo DIYEDEN SVDDAC04 for my Denon D2000, I am still not decided whether I should try this still unproven 200 € piece or the well known and well regarded YULONG D100 in order to improve my setup.


 


  I don't own any Audio-gd gear so I can't comment on their quality. I was considering the NFB-11 and the NFB-12 when I was looking for a DAC recently. I really wanted the NFB-11 because of the Sabre32 DAC chip and the very positive impressions that audio-gd gets on these forums. I bought the Yulong D100 because I wanted the DAC right away and I knew I did not have to patience to wait on a list. The D100 has a really good DAC but, IMO, its amp section is not as good as most others in that review thread think. Also, the D100 is 2 1/2 times the price of the NFB-12. I am very happy with my D100 but will always keep an eye out for high end Audio-gd gear in the future.


----------



## Leanier

Hmm I wonder, would the NFB-12 and Matrix M-Stage sound better than the Yulong D100 alone? Does anyone know how good exactly is the NFB 12 as a DAC?


----------



## Slaughter

On paper it's really good, but none have been shipped out for anyone to compare.

  
  Quote: 





leanier said:


> Hmm I wonder, would the NFB-12 and Matrix M-Stage sound better than the Yulong D100 alone? Does anyone know how good exactly is the NFB 12 as a DAC?


----------



## dubai2000

Cool, so some people *do* get answers to their mails, others don't. To be honest, not really an ideal way to trear customes....after all I have placed an order. Sorry if that sounds unreasonable or like whining, but with a the competion around the guys as audio-gd should be a bit smarter in terms of customer handling.....just IMHO....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## jsnyc

anyone have any thoughts on how the nfb12 might stack up against the maverick d1? i like tube dacs (have a monarchy nm24), but i have no option to hear either of these before buying.
   
  thanks in advance.


----------



## wushuliu

Doubtful the stock gigawork would sound as good as NFB: the gig has run of the mill power supply and dual opamps for buffer and output stage, design-wise the NFB is better. However, the gigawork with output transformer mod direct from the dac chip is a whole other story... Same with the maverick. The NFB-12 compared to other retail DACs in terms of design is a ridiculous bargain. At least on paper. Your ears may make a different decision. Closest I can think of in design in that price range is the Gamma Y2, and I think if you buy it pre-assembled it's _still_ more expensive.


----------



## Passingthrough

Just a heads up that I got a shipping notice and tracking # last night from Audio-GD for my NFB-12.  I think I placed my order on Nov. 22 so mine was probably in the first batch to go out.  I didn't really  mind the delay for quality gear at a great price hand built by a small botique company like this.  Looking forward to getting it now though!


----------



## Slaughter

Thats great news! I ordered mine the same day, so hopefully I get my tracking today as well. Are you in the US?
  
  Quote: 





passingthrough said:


> Just a heads up that I got a shipping notice and tracking # last night from Audio-GD for my NFB-12.  I think I placed my order on Nov. 22 so mine was probably in the first batch to go out.  I didn't really  mind the delay for quality gear at a great price hand built by a small botique company like this.  Looking forward to getting it now though!


----------



## BuFFys

Nice! i also ordered on the 22 november. to the EU. but have unfourtently gotten no email yet =(


----------



## vrln

Congrats  By the way, I noticed the Audio-gd prices list page now shows their stock situation: http://audio-gd.com/PriceList.htm. Pretty neat. I like the new website a lot.


----------



## acenes

I want my NFB.... 12


----------



## BuFFys

Got a email this morning (have been skiing all day) saying that my NFB-12 was sent yesterday! it will take 3-4days to activate the tracking code (DHL).


----------



## Jor-El

Quote: 





buffys said:


>


 


> Got a email this morning (have been skiing all day) saying that my NFB-12 was sent yesterday! it will take 3-4days to activate the tracking code (DHL).


 

 Nice!
 Should get it within the next 2 weeks then?
 Please post pics and a review when you get it!
 No news on my shipment just yet!


----------



## BuFFys

[size=medium]Don’t know the shipping time, i just need to wait (as i haven’t done that on the NFB-12  )[/size]
[size=medium]Will post my impression when i get it! Don’t know in the members in the US will get there NFB-12 quicker.[/size]


----------



## publicholiday

Do you guys think nfb-12 serve a decent dac for studio monitors?


----------



## BuFFys

It all depends on the speakers and amp (if they are not active). And what you current source or DAC is.
 But i would recommend at dedicated DC like NFB-3 if you only need a DAC.


----------



## publicholiday

My source is FLAC and using hud-mx1, is it worth to upgrade to nfb-12? i would prefer dac and head amp as i have few headphones as well


----------



## BuFFys

On a quick look you hud-mx1 has a WM8740 chip compered to the dual WM8741 chips in the NFB-12. so it should be better, the only difficult question is how much better is it? nobody know at this current moment, but it should be 100% improvement.
   
  I believe  that the amp part in the hud-mx1 isn't as god as in the NFB-12.
   
  especially after i saw the weight difference, 244g compared to 2kg (NFB-12)...... 
   
  the biggest question you should ask if a small/medium improvement is worth the extra money, and if you can sell your hud-mx1 or not.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





buffys said:


>


 


> On a quick look you hud-mx1 has a WM8740 chip compered to the dual WM8741 chips in the NFB-12. so it should be better, the only difficult question is how much better is it? nobody know at this current moment, but it should be 100% improvement.
> 
> I believe  that the amp part in the hud-mx1 isn't as god as in the NFB-12.
> 
> ...


 

 You should not tell the amp quality by the weight...  
   
  Audinst HUD-MX1 improve a lot with good external power supply... I tried SLA battery and shocked with the result.. the amp part is AT LEAST reaching 85% quality of Matrix M-Stage (with OPA2134 biased to class A).

 My friend put good opamp to play with the Audinst and once again get a good result.
   
  I order NFB-12 in particular to compare with Audinst...


----------



## BuFFys

I have learnt that weight for speaker amps can be a better indicate then watt rating. Especially watt to weight ratio, usually lower end will have low weight with a high watt rating.
  This is just my opine and not a facts! but my last change from my Marantz 140watt 9kg receiver to my Rotel 80watt 20kg receiver was quite a good change


----------



## BrainFood

Quote: 





buffys said:


>


 


> I have learnt that weight for speaker amps can be a better indicate then watt rating. Especially watt to weight ratio, usually lower end will have low weight with a high watt rating.
> This is just my opine and not a facts! but my last change from my Marantz 140watt 9kg receiver to my Rotel 80watt 20kg receiver was quite a good change


 


  There is definitely a relationship between speakers and weight (heaviness is usually a good sign) but electronics less so.  The Musical Fidelity tri-vista dac I used to own was very large and heavy at 13 kilos.  It was a decent dac but not the last word.  It was so big and heavy in order to sell to the US market- that was obvious!


----------



## publicholiday

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> > On a quick look you hud-mx1 has a WM8740 chip compered to the dual WM8741 chips in the NFB-12. so it should be better, the only difficult question is how much better is it? nobody know at this current moment, but it should be 100% improvement.
> >
> > I believe  that the amp part in the hud-mx1 isn't as god as in the NFB-12.
> >
> ...


 


  pls make a review of this comparison


----------



## Poultrygeist

The light weight of a Class D amp is no measure of how good it sounds. They can sonically stomp many heavyweights.
   
  Ordered a NFB-12 last evening for $234 shipped to South Carolina. Considered a Gigawork 24/192 kit but my emails kept bouncing back with no way to ask questions.
   
  OTOH, the guy at Audio GD is great at answering questions and quick to do so.


----------



## BuFFys

I just saw that audio-gd put up a FAQ where the last question was:
*[size=x-small]4[/size]*[size=x-small]*,What's different between the FUN, Sparrow and NFB12?*

 The FUN version A, Sparrow version A and NFB12 have same level sound quality  but different functions flexible.  Fun and Sparrow can replace the modules for choice different sound flavors. The FUN can replace the OPA but the Sparrow and NFB12 without OPA, the DA chips feed to ACSS modules.[/size]

 *[size=x-small]Model[/size]*
 *[size=x-small]DIR module[/size]*
 *[size=x-small]DA module[/size]*
 *[size=x-small]OPA[/size]*
 *[size=x-small]High/ Low Gain[/size]* *[size=x-small]Headamp input[/size]* *[size=x-small]Output[/size]*
  [size=x-small]FUN[/size]
  [size=x-small]Can replace[/size]
  [size=x-small]Can replace[/size]
  [size=x-small]Can replace[/size]
 [size=x-small]Had[/size] [size=x-small]Had[/size]  [size=x-small]Headphone /DAC /Pre[/size]
  [size=x-small]Sparrow[/size]
  [size=x-small]Can replace[/size]
  [size=x-small]Can replace[/size]
  [size=x-small]Without OPA[/size]
 　 　  [size=x-small]Headphone /Pre (want a adapter)[/size]
  [size=x-small]NFB12[/size]
  [size=x-small]Fixed[/size]
  [size=x-small]Fixed[/size]
  [size=x-small]Without OPA[/size]
 [size=x-small]Had[/size] 　  [size=x-small]Headphone /DAC /Pre[/size]


----------



## arcinthesky

mmm the Headamp Pico Dac uses WM8740, does that mean NFB-12 should sound better than the Pico?
   
  I already have a Gilmore Lite with DPS and I am wondering if I should sell it and just go for NFB-12 or get the Pico Dac / V-dac to complete the setup for my senn HD600.
   
  From the NFB-11 short review, it seems that the person said the soundstage is not wide? What do you guys think?


----------



## Greg121986

I ordered mine on January 4th. I'm going to have to wait forever.


----------



## Slaughter

Really, IMO you should be running tubes with any Sennheiser. I am bought the NFB-12 to try solid state and to see if the DAC is better than my current one.
  
  Quote: 





arcinthesky said:


> mmm the Headamp Pico Dac uses WM8740, does that mean NFB-12 should sound better than the Pico?
> 
> I already have a Gilmore Lite with DPS and I am wondering if I should sell it and just go for NFB-12 or get the Pico Dac / V-dac to complete the setup for my senn HD600.
> 
> From the NFB-11 short review, it seems that the person said the soundstage is not wide? What do you guys think?


----------



## Lazerboy2000

So basically this thing would blow the Maverick D1 out of the water? What is the stock price difference between this and the FUN?


----------



## Auderoine

Thoughts on using this without any additional amps to drive a HD600?  Obviously all speculation at this point, but based on previous experiences with Audio-GD and the specs, think there's enough punch in the NFB-12's, or worthwhile to have something like a Gilmore Lite in the middle?
   
  PS Good idea to not have any DAC for a month and wait for this to arrive and settle for going straight PC soundcard -> amp -> 600s?  Or will my soul be crushed without a DAC...


----------



## Slaughter

I own the HD580 and this amp is very identical in power output to the FUN and Sparrow. In my research there is little to no info on pairing the HD580/600 with these amps. There is plenty of current in these amps for the Senns, but the voltage requirement for the Senns is typically better served by tubes. Over the years there have only been a handful of solid state amps that have been highly recommended for these Senns, but a lot of tube amps. I am sure the DAC portion of this amp is pretty good, but you might want to research some other amps to pair it with.
  
  Quote: 





auderoine said:


> Thoughts on using this without any additional amps to drive a HD600?  Obviously all speculation at this point, but based on previous experiences with Audio-GD and the specs, think there's enough punch in the NFB-12's, or worthwhile to have something like a Gilmore Lite in the middle?
> 
> PS Good idea to not have any DAC for a month and wait for this to arrive and settle for going straight PC soundcard -> amp -> 600s?  Or will my soul be crushed without a DAC...


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I own the HD580 and this amp is very identical in power output to the FUN and Sparrow. *In my research there is little to no info on pairing the HD580/600 with these amps.* There is plenty of current in these amps for the Senns, *but the voltage requirement for the Senns is typically better served by tubes. Over the years there have only been a handful of solid state amps that have been highly recommended for these Senns*, but a lot of tube amps. I am sure the DAC portion of this amp is pretty good, but you might want to research some other amps to pair it with.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Many have found that the HD650 has great synergy with the Fun. If the NFB12 is somewhat comparable to the Fun I suspect you may be in for a pleasant surprise.


----------



## vrln

The FUN and NFB-12 have the same power at 300 ohms (HD 650), so things should be fine.


----------



## Theodore

Quote: 





buffys said:


> Ahh...
> DHL was the cheapest option on the NFB11/12 to Wester Europe... hopefully it fast, as DHL can be (2 days US to Sweden last time).


 


  We in Greece,prefer EMS,instead of DHL,or UPS,because when a item arrives in Customs,we pay huge sums of money with them,while the EMS way,can save enough,even all of the money,if the price of the item is lower than $100.00.


----------



## Auderoine

Comforting news.  Given the Gilmore amp is a done deal, worthwhile to drop $230 on the NFB-12, or go for a less frills/expensive pure DAC, given all my listening with the DAC would be with the Senn HD 600s?  I feel out of my league in terms of understanding the true technical merit of the NFB-12, wondering if investing in it is overkill with having the Gilmore on hand.  (Overkill is a relative word, speaking in terms of a 'non initiated' hi-fier).
  
  Quote: 





vrln said:


> The FUN and NFB-12 have the same power at 300 ohms (HD 650), so things should be fine.


----------



## bannedman3

Anybody here got a tracking code on their package yet, and know when It will arrive?
   
  I really want to order one, but would like to see some impressions first.


----------



## dubai2000

No news, answers etc. I can understand that those guys are busy, but looking at various threads they *do *send out mails. To be honest, I am almost ready to cancel my order....


----------



## BuFFys

Well just got a call from DHL, about a package from HongKong. Must be the NFB-12 (haven't ordered anything else that I am waiting for).
  Will have it delivered to work tomorrow! will post my first impression tomorrow evening! (GMT+1)


----------



## Slaughter

Interesting that you didn't make the Audio-GD consignment page. Shows they haven't shipped any NFB-12's yet. Look forward to your impressions.
  
  Quote: 





buffys said:


>


 


> Well just got a call from DHL, about a package from HongKong. Must be the NFB-12 (haven't ordered anything else that I am waiting for).
> Will have it delivered to work tomorrow! will post my first impression tomorrow evening! (GMT+1)


----------



## BuFFys

The consignment page only goes to 6 of January, and my was shipped 8 of January according to my email from edwin. now i feel like the day before christmas! (as this was my christmas present from me to me  ).


----------



## olekrst

DHL delivered mine ~2hrs ago (Oslo, Norway). I actually picked EMS as my delivery option when i ordered.
   
  The unit sounds really good, but i haven't that much to compare to, only my HUD-mx1. I've only listened to it for 1/2 hour, but my initial impression is that side by side the mx1 it sounds much more airy with better highs and more punch in the bass. High/low gain changes the coloring of the sound, not really sure how to describe it. On high, vocals really pop but on low they are more recessed.
   
  I'm sure more experienced head-fi'ers will come with thurough reviews, just thought i would share.
   
  Edit: The power cable included (European CEE 7/7 to IEC connector) was actually a pretty loose fit when connected to the back panel of the nfb-12. I swapped it for another power cable i found in my house and that fit snugly.


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





olekrst said:


> DHL delivered mine ~2hrs ago (Oslo, Norway). I actually picked EMS as my delivery option when i ordered.
> 
> The unit sounds really good, but i haven't that much to compare to, only my HUD-mx1. I've only listened to it for 1/2 hour, but my initial impression is that side by side the mx1 it sounds much more airy with better highs and more punch in the bass. High/low gain changes the coloring of the sound, not really sure how to describe it. On high, vocals really pop but on low they are more recessed.
> 
> I'm sure more experienced head-fi'ers will come with thurough reviews, just thought i would share.


 
   
  Thanks for sharing! If I hadn't bought the NFB-12, I was planning on getting the HUD-mx1 instead, so it's interesting to hear that comparison. Do you think the sound will change a bit with time?


----------



## Slaughter

This is the second review of the NFB-11/12 and neither has given me very much confidence. The NFB-11 DAC was compared to a Sony Blu-ray player and now the 12 sounding less favorable than a medicore Audinst. Oh my....
  
  Quote: 





olekrst said:


> DHL delivered mine ~2hrs ago (Oslo, Norway). I actually picked EMS as my delivery option when i ordered.
> 
> The unit sounds really good, but i haven't that much to compare to, only my HUD-mx1. I've only listened to it for 1/2 hour, but my initial impression is that side by side the mx1 it sounds much more airy with better highs and more punch in the bass. High/low gain changes the coloring of the sound, not really sure how to describe it. On high, vocals really pop but on low they are more recessed.
> 
> ...


----------



## olekrst

Quote: 





jupe said:


> Thanks for sharing! If I hadn't bought the NFB-12, I was planning on getting the HUD-mx1 instead, so it's interesting to hear that comparison. Do you think the sound will change a bit with time?


 
  I think i read that Audio-gd gives the units some 40 odd hours of burn-in time after they're assembled. Im pretty sure the sound will change throughout the evening anyway as the unit warms up, it was a bit chilled due cold weather. Also my HD650's are a recent purchase, so between the two i'm confident i will hear some subtle changes due to burn-in, but i guess time will tell


----------



## olekrst

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> This is the second review of the NFB-11/12 and neither has given me very much confidence. The NFB-11 DAC was compared to a Sony Blu-ray player and now the 12 sounding less favorable than a medicore Audinst. Oh my....


 

 I think thats more on me than it's the NFB-12 sounding bad; i'm just not a very good reviewer  I actually meant to give the NFB-12 a favorable impression compared to the Audinst.
   
  edit:
  Now that the unit has had a little time to properly warm up and play for a while i think i'll add to my initial out-of-the-box impression that its safe to say that its a different beast than the Audinst. I initially listened with gain set to I, but ACSS is only active on II so i flipped over to that setting instead. I hear more soundstage, and the bass has improved loads. Its really fun to listen to, i think i'll be happy with this unit. Looking forward to hearing the impressions of others as the pre-ordered nfb-12's arrive.


----------



## Jor-El

Dammit when is mine coming..


----------



## Leanier

I'm very interested about further comparison with Audinst mx1 because I'm going to buy the better of the two as a dac, I'll be using separate amp so the SQ of the built in amps are not of my concern.


----------



## Slaughter

Keep in mind, the Audinst is USB input only. In case that matters.
  
  Quote: 





leanier said:


> I'm very interested about further comparison with Audinst mx1 because I'm going to buy the better of the two as a dac, I'll be using separate amp so the SQ of the built in amps are not of my concern.


----------



## Leanier

I'm going to use it with my pc/netbook only so it doesn't matter at all.


----------



## Sparky14

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> This is the second review of the NFB-11/12 and neither has given me very much confidence. The NFB-11 DAC was compared to a Sony Blu-ray player and now the 12 sounding less favorable than a medicore Audinst. Oh my....
> 
> 
> 
> >


 


 It sounds like you misread the post comparing it to the Audinst (there's a missing "to" I think, as I think the poster was stating that compared "to" the Audinst, the NFB-11 ("it") sounds more airy and open....etc.
   
  And I was the one who compared it to the Sony BR player. And my statement was the NFB-11 was slighly better than the (outstanding) Sony BR, which was slightly better than the great audiophile bargain, the Oppo DV-980. Let us not forget the NFB-11/12s are <$300 items, and include a DAC, preamp and headphone amp. And I would put the NFB-11/12 up against separate DAC or preamp or headphone amp in twice that price range. So, in my opinion, it is probably one of the best bargains I've seen in a long time.


----------



## Slaughter

I reread his post and it does look like he left out that key word. Whew! As for the Sony, I guess we are at a point where consumer grade components have caught up to hi-fi. I overreacted because I paid $230 for a DAC that sounds like a $100 Blu-ray player and I am frustrated with Audio-GD's lack of communication since they told me mine would ship on two earlier dates, which it obviously didn't. I'll relax until my unit arrives. Thanks
  
  Quote: 





sparky14 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Slaughter

Shipping update:
   
   
  We had arranging your NFB-12 now,and we will shipping out it within 3 workdays
  Edwin
   
  This is the 3rd date given, so I'll cross my fingers.


----------



## sayh

An update on their webpage as of now:
   
*13th Jan.     We register a mail box for customers complain our worst serve . This mail box only read and reply from Kingwa. *
*audio-gd-kingwa@hotmail.com* 
   
  so go on sent mails and see what kingwa could do to help regarding their services.


----------



## Sparky14

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I reread his post and it does look like he left out that key word. Whew! As for the Sony, I guess we are at a point where consumer grade components have caught up to hi-fi. I overreacted because I paid $230 for a DAC that sounds like a $100 Blu-ray player and I am frustrated with Audio-GD's lack of communication since they told me mine would ship on two earlier dates, which it obviously didn't. I'll relax until my unit arrives. Thanks


 
   
  I understand. I think that generation of Sony BD players (BD-370,470,570) will go down as one of those occassional products that sounds much better than it has a right to.


----------



## BuFFys

So now i have had my unit for a couple hours, here is a picture of it:

   
   
        First impression is, that there is no fatigue as before, i can hear a better soundstage and the base has improved a bit. I have only compared this to a Nuforce Icon or a standard macbook pro.
  The Ultrasone pro 900 are a bit better and the sound close to when listing to my friends S.A.T CDfix and Vincent KHV-111 MK. So i think they do not need any better equipment.
   
  Thats what strike me, is how good the Ultrasone sounds un-amped….(from a macbook pro) But with the NFB-12 even lesser quality mp3 sounds better then un-amped…
   
  Overall I am positive, especially at this price range. 
  So now i can save up my money for a new winter/ski jacket…. instead of more hi-fi stuff!


----------



## Leanier

How does the NFB-12 compare to Creative X-Fi? Right now I have X-Fi music and I would like to know how big improvement the NFB is.


----------



## BuFFys

Quote: 





leanier said:


> How does the NFB-12 compare to Creative X-Fi? Right now I have X-Fi music and I would like to know how big improvement the NFB is.


 

 I Will try to compare them when i home today or next week.


----------



## Leanier

Thanks!!!


----------



## Greg121986

Quote: 





leanier said:


> How does the NFB-12 compare to Creative X-Fi? Right now I have X-Fi music and I would like to know how big improvement the NFB is.


 
   
  I have a Creative Xtreme Music and I am using it with my Sennheiser 595s right now. I previously had a Maverick D1 and the difference between the two is night and day. The D1 was so much better. I have also used an Audio GD FUN and the sound was also much better. I am now waiting on the NFB12 to arrive but it won't ship until late February for me.


----------



## Slaughter

I have an X-Fi as well, so I will post my thoughts when I get it.


----------



## Leanier

Well in my case the problem is slightly different because I have custom made amp that is quite good (based on TPA6120A2, OPA2134, LM317 and LM337 - http://holdegron.dlf.interia.pl/graphic/little2.jpg) plugged into X-fi Music , and the difference between having my HD555 plugged into X-Fi alone and X-Fi + amp is very big.


----------



## BuFFys

Quote:


leanier said:


> Well in my case the problem is slightly different because I have custom made amp that is quite good (based on TPA6120A2, OPA2134, LM317 and LM337 - http://holdegron.dlf.interia.pl/graphic/little2.jpg) plugged into X-fi Music , and the difference between having my HD555 plugged into X-Fi alone and X-Fi + amp is very big.


 

 Well I haven’t done the comparison as my NFB-12 and Ultrasones are still at my workplace. But only buying the NFB-12 as a DAC compared to a XF-I when using you amp, i think the sound difference will be minimal and not worth 200USD...
 That’s my opinion!


----------



## arcinthesky

Anyone here with the Pico Dac who is also buying the NFB-12? I would like to see a comparison between the two in terms of their performances as a DAC.
  Since the Pico Dac is $50-100 more than the NFB-12 and doesn't have an amp, I was wondering how it stacks up.


----------



## Leanier

Quote:


buffys said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> leanier said:
> ...


 
   
  And that is what I'm mostly afraid of. Not that the NFB-12 will sound bad but that the improvement will be minimal or non. For about 200$ I can buy either HD598 or m50 that I think will definitely be an improvement of my HD555.


----------



## BuFFys

Quote:


leanier said:


> And that is what I'm mostly afraid of. Not that the NFB-12 will sound bad but that the improvement will be minimal or non. For about 200$ I can buy either HD598 or m50 that I think will definitely be an improvement of my HD555.


 

 If I where you i would go for bather headphones the NFB-12, maybe even wait and save up for even better headphones?


----------



## mikop

I would also think that saving up for a higher grade phone will probably be a better idea.  Sound (from any source) between say my D5000 /SR 225 is a huge improvement over M50/HD555.  Personally, I won't have even bother with any dac/amp for my HD555 and start saving for "mid-fi" right away.


----------



## Leanier

Are you thinking about HD650 level headphones or even higher? Right away I can spend about 400-500$ to improve my SQ as much as I can.


----------



## Jor-El

Quote: 





buffys said:


> So now i have had my unit for a couple hours, here is a picture of it:


 

 Drool.
 This would be my first dac/amp ever in my foray into the world of headphones!
 I can't bloody wait.


----------



## vrln

Nice choice then! You picked probably (judging by the specs and their other models) the best bargain so far in DAC/HP amp hifi


----------



## jsnyc

Quote: 





> I have a Creative Xtreme Music and I am using it with my Sennheiser 595s right now. I previously had a Maverick D1 and the difference between the two is night and day. The D1 was so much better. I have also used an Audio GD FUN and the sound was also much better. I am now waiting on the NFB12 to arrive but it won't ship until late February for me.


 

 so which was better, the FUN or the Maverick?


----------



## FeiJai

I wonder how this compares to the Fiio E9 headphone amp.


----------



## Greg121986

I really cannot say because my D1 was defective. I ended up returning it to the Ebay seller. When the D1 was working properly it did sound great. The FUN also sounded great. I think the FUN is great, but it was a bit too expensive. It belongs to my roommate and he paid around $400-500 to buy all of the optional components available. It currently has the Moon opamp in it which we both like. But, my limit was $200 and I think for my money the NFB 12 is where it's at. Now I just have to wait another 4 or 5 weeks for it to ship. 
  
  Quote: 





jsnyc said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BuFFys

Quote:


leanier said:


> Are you thinking about HD650 level headphones or even higher? Right away I can spend about 400-500$ to improve my SQ as much as I can.


 

 Yes, I would recommend the 400-500USD headphones, there are many great chooses like HD650 D2000/D5000 or my favorites Ultrasone pro 900 (370USD shipped from eBay) *Et al.*
 I think most of them will sound good with your current setup. And you can always later upgrade, if you want. Just go out and listen!


----------



## Lazerboy2000

I'd really love to see this compared to the Maverick D1. The price and features are fairly similar, but I've heard the Maverick's headphone amp being described as "meh". I'd like to see how the NFB-12 stacks up. The tube-out of the Maverick is nice, but not a deal breaker for me.


----------



## Slaughter

Don't assume the 650 is better than the 600. To me and a lot of others, the 600 is superior. They sound different enough that I think you would need to try both if you are going with the Sennheiser sound.

  
  Quote: 





leanier said:


> Are you thinking about HD650 level headphones or even higher? Right away I can spend about 400-500$ to improve my SQ as much as I can.


----------



## movi

i should receive mine in a couple of weeks. i will post a quick review and comment on synergy with HD-650 and D2000 for those interested.


----------



## dre2000

We need a E7/E9 combo comparison


----------



## olor1n

I doubt the more congested and less refined WM8740 found in the E7 would stand a chance next to Kingwa's implementation of dual WM8741 in the NFB12.


----------



## ericdube

Quote: 





movi said:


> i should receive mine in a couple of weeks. i will post a quick review and comment on synergy with HD-650 and D2000 for those interested.


 

  
  Congratulations on the purchase!
   
  Please report back on how it works out for you as I'm definitely all ears. I've been contemplating the NFB-12 for sometime now. I would really like something to drive my HD-650 during the summer months when it gets much too hot to run my Cary SLI-80 (unfortunately my office doesn't have air conditioning.)


----------



## runnin17

Got an email saying mine should be shipped. Just waiting for the DHL tracking number. Hopefully I have it in a week or so.


----------



## dre2000

Is it possible to plug in my xbox 360 audio cable and active speakers at the same time with the nfb-12? I know you can with the e9 since there is a line in, but I don't see one on the nfb-12. thanks


----------



## Passingthrough

Received my NFB-12 today from EMS/USPS.  I've only had time to listen for a couple of hours but am very pleased so far.
   
       Squeezebox Duet (FLAC) > Coax > NFB-12 > Virtue One.2 w/ upgraded power > NEAR 10M (fairly revealing monitors)
       Squeezebox Duet (FLAC) > Coax > NFB-12 > Senn HD-580
   
  First impressions:
   

 Sounds really good out of the box.  I have not A/B'd yet but seems to have nice clarity without any harsh edginess (I removed a tube buffer that helped tame the Duet's poor DAC and am not missing it).
 The small form factor is great and case is more solid than I expected.
 Comes with several jumpers (to set Fixed option) plus an optical and USB cable.  A nice touch.
 Powers my HD-580 (300 ohm) with ease even on low gain setting.  I can't imagine ever needing the high gain.  My JDS cmoy amp will get only travel duty now as its bass boost was a little too much for my phones but no boost was too little and the NFB-12 has a rich, full sound without overdoing the low end.  Caveat: as always, without A/B blind testing this is only an initial subjective impression.
 I love that the headphones don't have to be disconnected in order to use speakers.
   
  I also have a Maverick D1 (with 1950's Bendix tube) and a Valab NOS DAC.  Time permitting I may do some A/B testing.


----------



## mikop

Thanks for the impressions!
   
  Patiently waiting for mine, but great to know the NFB-12 has shipped since they last updated the shipping page on Jan 6.


----------



## Slaughter

Thanks for the impressions. HD580 is 300 ohms. The high and low setting use different topologies (diamond vs ACSS), so even if the volume is not needed, they should have a different sound. Let us know.


----------



## dubai2000

Great....they are shipping.....nevertheless: their email behaviour is the worst I've ever encountered  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Even politily expressing dissatisfaction on the special address mentioned above did not lead to any response.....to be honest: that's really bad business behaviour IMO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## BuFFys

Quote: 





runnin17 said:


> Got an email saying mine should be shipped. Just waiting for the DHL tracking number. Hopefully I have it in a week or so.


 

 Well i got my package before i got the new tracking number from Audio-GD when they shipped with DHL! I hope this happens to you too!
   
  Quote: 





dre2000 said:


> Is it possible to plug in my xbox 360 audio cable and active speakers at the same time with the nfb-12? I know you can with the e9 since there is a line in, but I don't see one on the nfb-12. thanks


 
   
        Do you mean to connect the xbox360 with optical SPDIF to the NFB-12, then have your NFB-12 connect to the active speakers with the DAC-out (two RCA connections)? Then yes, with this connection you will be using the build in DAC to your Active-speakers, and you can have DAC+AMP to your headphones.
   
  THE NFB-12 do not have any analog input (only a analog output), but all xbox360s has luckily a optical output.


----------



## olekrst

I tried using my nfb-12 as a dedicated DAC and it seems like both "Variable" and "Fixed" is actually a variable line out setting. They sound identical and i can control the volume with the volume knob. Im guessing my "variable and fixed / variable only" jumper is set to variable only(havent checked yet), which is weird because Audio-GD's site clearly states variable/fixed is the default.
   
  Infact, why would anyone want to flip the jumper to variable only when the other mode gives you the option to choose from the front panel?


----------



## Passingthrough

Quote: 





> Infact, why would anyone want to flip the jumper to variable only when the other mode gives you the option to choose from the front panel?


 
   
  You would want to disable the Fixed output if you are using a true amplifier (one without volume knob) so that you don't accidentally set the NFB-12 to fixed (full) and blow your speakers.  I assume audio-gd decided to ship it that way to be safe.   In my case my amp does have a volume pot but I've bypassed it so would never want the Fixed option on the NFB-12 to work because my toddler will surely flip it on one day.


----------



## olekrst

Quote: 





passingthrough said:


> You would want to disable the Fixed output if you are using a true amplifier (one without volume knob) so that you don't accidentally set the NFB-12 to fixed (full) and blow your speakers.  I assume audio-gd decided to ship it that way to be safe.   In my case my amp does have a volume pot but I've bypassed it so would never want the Fixed option on the NFB-12 to work because my toddler will surely flip it on one day.


 

 Thanks for replying. Of course, it makes sense to me now


----------



## dre2000

Quote: 





buffys said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> Do you mean to connect the xbox360 with optical SPDIF to the NFB-12, then have your NFB-12 connect to the active speakers with the DAC-out (two RCA connections)? Then yes, with this connection you will be using the build in DAC to your Active-speakers, and you can have DAC+AMP to your headphones.
> 
> THE NFB-12 do not have any analog input (only a analog output), but all xbox360s has luckily a optical output.


 
  Nice, yes I mean optical SPDIF. Does it come with a optical cable?


----------



## Slaughter

Yes. But they are only $5 anyway.
  
  Quote: 





dre2000 said:


> >
> 
> 
> 
> Nice, yes I mean optical SPDIF. Does it come with a optical cable?


----------



## dre2000

Quote: 





passingthrough said:


> Received my NFB-12 today from EMS/USPS.  I've only had time to listen for a couple of hours but am very pleased so far.
> 
> Squeezebox Duet (FLAC) > Coax > NFB-12 > Virtue One.2 w/ upgraded power > NEAR 10M (fairly revealing monitors)
> Squeezebox Duet (FLAC) > Coax > NFB-12 > Senn HD-580
> ...


 
  Is there a difference in sound quality if you use usb vs coax or optical?


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





passingthrough said:


> Received my NFB-12 today from EMS/USPS.  I've only had time to listen for a couple of hours but am very pleased so far.
> 
> Squeezebox Duet (FLAC) > Coax > NFB-12 > Virtue One.2 w/ upgraded power > NEAR 10M (fairly revealing monitors)
> Squeezebox Duet (FLAC) > Coax > NFB-12 > Senn HD-580


 

 Whoa... you have NEAR speaker... , I once heard NEAR ME50 and instantly fall in love with... unfortunately I cannot afford at that time and now they are gone from business...


----------



## acenes

I never had an expensive multilayer glass optical connection , although the rule is the more money you spend on such a cable the better the sound , so , an average optical cable is subpar, in other words an average optical cable is not as good as an average coxial cable  That means  Any average coxial cable will do better than an average optical cable.
   
  USB , well , I don't know , but I will let you know once I get my NFB12 and output it to my home theater system as well as my headpones.


----------



## Elanzer

Coax/Optical should be preferred over USB whenever possible, as I believe the S/PDIF interface module is superior to the USB one. Probably not much of a notable difference in quality if any at all, but why waste a USB port when your coax/optical isn't going to be used for anything else? If USB is your only option... then what's the point of the comparison?


----------



## dre2000

Quote: 





acenes said:


> I never had an expensive multilayer glass optical connection , although the rule is the more money you spend on such a cable the better the sound , so , an average optical cable is subpar, in other words an average optical cable is not as good as an average coxial cable  That means  Any average coxial cable will do better than an average optical cable.
> 
> USB , well , I don't know , but I will let you know once I get my NFB12 and output it to my home theater system as well as my headpones.


 
  Thanks.


----------



## acenes

I hope you are wrong in my case , I intend to listen to music from my computer and want to eliminate all paths from my computer.  I don't want any sound card interference from any manufacturer


----------



## acenes

I like bit perfect samples , and will not except anything less...  It's just the way I rip my music , sorry if I gave an impression of any thing less.


----------



## dre2000

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Coax/Optical should be preferred over USB whenever possible, as I believe the S/PDIF interface module is superior to the USB one. Probably not much of a notable difference in quality if any at all, but why waste a USB port when your coax/optical isn't going to be used for anything else? If USB is your only option... then what's the point of the comparison?


 


  I do have a xonar d2 sound card which has a optical out, but I could sell it if optical doesn't make any difference. I'm currently using the E7/E9 combo (usb) with the denon d7000's, so i don't know if the nfb-12 would even be worth it. The d7000's have about 20 hours of burn in, but the treble/highs are a little harsh, other than that they are fine.


----------



## Slaughter

USB has power running along side data, so that should be a bigger concern. 





acenes said:


> I hope you are wrong in my case , I intend to listen to music from my computer and want to eliminate all paths from my computer.  I don't want any sound card interference from any manufacturer


----------



## acenes

Wait for evaluations before purchasing , there are plenty that are waiting.


----------



## acenes

Purchasing this NFB12 is like Muskrat love


----------



## vinay

Will NFB-12 allow Dobly digital or any surround sounds to pass thru to the headphones?
  I ask this since my motherboard does have a simple and good enough surround sound effect which helps while gaming. I would like to use it while connected to NFB-12 without having to remove the connections often when changing from music to games or vice versa.


----------



## Slaughter

The NFB-12 won't be the problem, it depends if your soundcard will output the processed audio through coax/optical.
  
  Quote: 





vinay said:


> Will NFB-12 allow Dobly digital or any surround sounds to pass thru to the headphones?
> I ask this since my motherboard does have a simple and good enough surround sound effect which helps while gaming. I would like to use it while connected to NFB-12 without having to remove the connections often when changing from music to games or vice versa.


----------



## vinay

This is for a friend who has Asus DX 7.1 . I assume it should output through the optical.
   
  The reason i ask is since DAC converts digital to analog and outputs through RCA/Headphone jack, wouldn't surround sound be lost?? 
  I am not entirely sure if my theory is right which is why i am consulting you guys. 
  Quote: 





slaughter said:


> The NFB-12 won't be the problem, it depends if your soundcard will output the processed audio through coax/optical.


----------



## Slaughter

Headphones are 2 channel and analog. The surround sound from games is processed and sent out through 2 channels optimized for headphones (if the option is selected) from the headphone jack on the sound card. I don't believe all sound cards will send the same processed 2 channel fake surround sound through the optical/coax. He would need to consult his cards documentation or search online. I haven't used my X-Fi that way, I plug my gaming phones straight into the card, but I know people have had trouble getting the fake surround from the digital output of X-Fi cards.

  
  Quote: 





vinay said:


> This is for a friend who has Asus DX 7.1 . I assume it should output through the optical.
> 
> The reason i ask is since DAC converts digital to analog and outputs through RCA/Headphone jack, wouldn't surround sound be lost??
> I am not entirely sure if my theory is right which is why i am consulting you guys.
> ...


----------



## Elanzer

None of the effects worked for me connecting my xonar dx to sparrow by optical, nor was there any difference between the card and onboard in quality with either optical.


----------



## treaves

Quote: 





acenes said:


> I never had an expensive multilayer glass optical connection , although the rule is the more money you spend on such a cable the better the sound , so , an average optical cable is subpar, in other words an average optical cable is not as good as an average coxial cable  That means  Any average coxial cable will do better than an average optical cable.
> 
> USB , well , I don't know , but I will let you know once I get my NFB12 and output it to my home theater system as well as my headpones.


 
   
  Someone really does not understand that whole ones & zeros thing.  I guess the world (and the crooks who make the cables) need more fruit-loopery in the world...


----------



## Slaughter

He hasn't made sense in any of his posts....
  
  Quote: 





treaves said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## llama_egg

But, but, my more expensive cable makes the 0's and 1's larger then your cheaper cable, thus, it sounds better. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





treaves said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## movi

actually, on this topic, i have a n00b question. if i want to buy a coax cable for connecting my NFB-12 to my desktop's coax out, i need to select RCA-to-RCA, right? NFB-12 is an RCA connector for the coax in? and i'm guessing my motherboard is also RCA?
   
  thanks.


----------



## Slaughter

Yes, it's a standard RCA. On your motherboard it will be a black or yellow jack. Some motherboards only have optical. Just buy a decent cable from monoprice or bluejeans. The monoprice cable is sold as a digital or subwoofer cable. 






movi said:


> actually, on this topic, i have a n00b question. if i want to buy a coax cable for connecting my NFB-12 to my desktop's coax out, i need to select RCA-to-RCA, right? NFB-12 is an RCA connector for the coax in? and i'm guessing my motherboard is also RCA?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## timjh

Another newbie joining the discussion here -- I'm in the market for a USB headphone amp/DAC for the office, and from reading this thread am very interested in the NFB-12. Wondering how it would compare to the NuForce Icon uDAC-2, which is also in my price range.


----------



## 06S2k07Si

Quote: 





timjh said:


> Another newbie joining the discussion here -- I'm in the market for a USB headphone amp/DAC for the office, and from reading this thread am very interested in the NFB-12. Wondering how it would compare to the NuForce Icon uDAC-2, which is also in my price range.


 


  Ditto...I'm new here as well. I am looking for a USB DAC/pre-amp (with volume controlled RCA line out) for my new PC rig. I will be running a pair of Swan D1080MkII 08's paralleled with a Polk PSW111 powered sub. I'm just looking for the best solution under $250usd or less.
   
  The options list seems to be Nuforce uDAC-2, Firestone Fubar III, Maverick audio Tube Magic D1 DAC, Audio-GD NFB-12 (perhaps the best contender so far?), Zero DAC (w/opa627's). Any other thoughts/ suggestions?
   
  Thank you, Brian


----------



## acenes

I am so sorry , I was baited into a question that has an infinite amount of answers in different situations , of course what I said makes a difference in my situation.  But maybe not necessarily in yours. I do know what I'm talking about , I have ears, very good good ones. . I have experienced it myself listening to DTS music DVD's at 48khz with my DVD players , the coax is better than the optical , but another thing to think about is maybe it's due to my receiver , which is is an eleven years old Sony STRDB-930 , a very respectable one.  My ears don't lie.
   
  But then there is a point the OP brought up , BIT-PERFECT , which sent me on a quest in this very informative website that has my up-most respect , I found out that my motherboard is not bit perfect , so , it looks like the USB will be my bit-perfect solution , if not , I may have to purchase a digital interface.
   
  It's no wonder that I have always preferred listening to MP3's from the analog line level out of my Nomad Jukebox 3 to the coax out of my computer , my ears like yours , do not lie.


----------



## acenes

My computer motherboard SPDIF upsamples everyting to 48Khz , I forgot to mention that.


----------



## acenes

And joy of all joy,  I just recieved this in my mail box:
   
  Well , I can't copy and paste , but Kingwa said my NFB12 will be shipping out Monday , and I can't wait to tell you how it sounds.  Check my profile for the headpones I use , my HD600's are going to have the brand new drivers as my last desktop amp blew a cap and burnt out my original drivers.


----------



## acenes

But then again , sinci it has been mentioned that I don't make any sense , I should just shy away from here and not tell anything because I don't make any sense.


----------



## panda-R

you may talk if you make sense regardless of being a noob or a senior member.
   
  and it's true, 1's and 0's don't sound different than 1's and 0's.


----------



## acenes

I like a delivery of 0 and 1  being the deleviery of snake oil of the highest degree.  Yeah , I was born yesterday. Thank you.


----------



## Currawong

FWIW I have a Fun going to a Parasound Zamp and Paradigm Titans in my living room for family listening. It's far from as detailed as my main headphone rig, but it sounds quite good. If the NFB-12 is voiced as the Sparrow and Fun are, then it'll sound great IMO.
   
  As for the S/PDIF cable: Indeed get something like the Blue Jeans 75 Ohm cable. Sure the RCA plugs, by their nature, can't be 75 Ohm, but it'll be close enough if using the Canare plugs. It's not a big deal though as it wont matter a great deal for gear in this price range.


----------



## publicholiday

Is there any optical input for NFB-12?


----------



## Slaughter

Refer to the first post of this thread or the Audio-GD website.
  
  Quote: 





publicholiday said:


> Is there any optical input for NFB-12?


----------



## Jor-El

Quote: 





publicholiday said:


> Is there any optical input for NFB-12?


 


  yes


----------



## rawrster

Has anyone purchased from Pacific Valve before?
   
  I'm currently doing research on what to get for a headphone rig and this dac is under consideration although it is still new so the jury isn't out on the product yet. I'd prefer to order from a US based company due to ease of shipping in case anything happens and communication and of course the shipping. I'm also not close as I have quite a bit of research to do on various dac's as I'm not too well versed on what dac's are good or not.
   
  This product is still new so not sure if this can be answered but how is it as an all in one unit for headphones such as the DT880/600 or any hard to drive headphone or would it be better off just to separate the dac and amp? The specs do look good but specs don't tell the whole story.


----------



## BuFFys

Well if any one is driving ther DT880/600 with Audio-gd Sparrow or FUN then the NFB-12 will do it equally good.


----------



## Elanzer

Sparrow can drive the 600-Ohm beyers just fine.. my T1 on the Sparrow never went above about 10 o'clock on the volume, anything much higher than 12 was far too loud. The Sparrow is +6 gain at stock, so the NFB-12 with gain set to high (+12) should be even easier for the DT880 600-Ohm. Going to an amp over twice as powerful for 600-Ohm was a bit underwhelming as the Sparrow already drove them just fine.
   
  The NFB-12 should have very good synergy with the DT880 as it leans slightly on the warm side which is favorable synergy with the DT880. I'm personally in belief that the DT880 + NFB-12 combo can't be beat for the price in mid-fi.


----------



## Poultrygeist

"Has anyone purchased from Pacific Valve before?"
   
  Yes, when I needed a replacement socket for a tube amp they wouldn't sell me one or advise where to buy it. A friend tried to get some missing screws for his remote but they had none. PV buys unaltered products directly from China and customers pay a huge markup for service they don't deliver.


----------



## Slaughter

Audio-GD has promised me 3 different shipping dates and as of today, they missed the third date. Very poor service. I understand the reason for the delays, but then don't give dates. A lot of people at head-fi would be more than willing to update their English page so it is more understandable and to provide updates. Easily solution to a serious problem.


----------



## mikop

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Audio-GD has promised me 3 different shipping dates and as of today, they missed the third date. Very poor service. I understand the reason for the delays, but then don't give dates.


 

  
  I don't email them about it and don't ask for dates so I am not disappointed *yet*   Figured this course of action would be less stressful on myself.  I will be pleasantly surprised when the NFB-12 suddenly show up in my mailbox 
   
  But yes, I agree with you. I think the problem lately with them is that they felt compelled to give dates to get a little working room while consistently missing it, giving their customers an impression that they are being lied to or are fed whatever just to get them off their back.


----------



## timjh

Has anyone had a chance to compare the Audio-GD NFB-12 to the iBasso D6 Fer-de-Lance?


----------



## Poetik

I ordered mine about a week before christmas and I'm hoping it gets here before the end of january.  Guess only time will tell right?


----------



## migman

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Audio-GD has promised me 3 different shipping dates and as of today, they missed the third date. Very poor service. I understand the reason for the delays, but then don't give dates. A lot of people at head-fi would be more than willing to update their English page so it is more understandable and to provide updates. Easily solution to a serious problem.


 

 I am in the same boat.  I was told a couple weeks ago that it would ship today.  So I emailed today asking for an update to which they responded - now delayed until "around Feb 15th."  Disappointing, but I guess I'll keep waiting.


----------



## BuFFys

Quote:


timjh said:


> Has anyone had a chance to compare the Audio-GD NFB-12 to the iBasso D6 Fer-de-Lance?


 
   
  Unfortunately no, but the only reason for choosing the IBasso D6 is if you need a portable DAC/Amp, otherwise the DAC and Amp in the NFB-12 is better and its 75USD cheaper.
 IBasso product aren’t bad, just you will always get better performance from a none portable setup vs a portable setup.


----------



## mikop

AGD updated their shipping page http://www.audio-gd.com/ConsignmentGlobal.htm
  15 NFB-12 shipped as of Jan 15.


----------



## BuFFys

Cool, and according to Audio-GD i have changes nationality! I am from switzerland now! but my NFB-12 did arrive in sweden


----------



## madwolf

Hi
   
  So buffys's real name is William 
   
  Wounder when I will get an email from them 
   
   
  Quote: 





buffys said:


> Cool, and according to Audio-GD i have changes nationality! I am from switzerland now! but my NFB-12 did arrive in sweden


----------



## BuFFys

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> Hi
> 
> So buffys's real name is William
> 
> Wounder when I will get an email from them


 
  Nope guess again


----------



## thuantran

There're only two Switz there, so no need to try again .


----------



## jermng

Well, in that case do you get the discount since it ships after Chinese New Year?
  
  Quote: 





migman said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## vinay

Thanks Buffys..
  I was waiting for a review.. but looks like the more i wait, the delivery would get more delayed.. So i better order soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ..
   
  Since this is the first time i am ordering one, any tips on what to specify when ordering one.. like the power rating(230V) and type of socket(3 types of socket is used in India 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - http://users.telenet.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm#country_i  )..
   
  Thanks in advance..
  
  Quote: 





buffys said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> Yes, first you need to choose the power rating, and secondly what socket you want. (UK and EU (schuko), have booth same power rating but different wall sockets).


----------



## uncletim

Ordered around Xmas, they bumped me to after Feb 15th at this point. Thinking about going another direction - a friend of mine wants to upgrade his X-Can V3 + X-PSU for his new HD800s, so I can get that for just a tad more than the NFB12, or there is the Icon HDP which may be a better fit for the office. No big rush really, the X-Can is actually pretty nice tho.


----------



## BuFFys

Well i still haven’t had that much time to listen in to it, as i only use it at work (i use my speakers at home). And I am maybe not the best reviewer.
  And the only other headphones besides my Ultrasone are my portable Koss ksc 75. And i say they rock with the NFB-12. But they are not hard to drive! 
   
  But With my Ultrasone 900s listening to Michel Jackson "Stranger in Moscow", I find that the NFB-12 the bass have improved and gotten a more "punch" and quicker response (the Ultrasone are known for their bass). Before in this song, the guitar sounded more like a bass and had a foreword present, but now with the DAC i found it to be more refined and sounding a bit more as a guitar sound, and a bit more in the background.
   
  Now there is no fatigue like before, so i found myself going for a higher volume, so i need to watch out so the sound don’t leak out to much.....
  And the one of the best thing is that music of lower quality is now possible to listen then before. I found that i can listen to 128kps radio shows again as i couldn’t with the Ultrasones before.(It’s my favorite radio station….), but I find myself listening more to Flac and 320kbps music any way.
   
  But I find that the quality of the recording is more important now, as some new dance music only has better bass and less fatigue. But still sound quite the same.
   
  Hope this helps you vinay, and regarding the sockets here a picture from Audio-gd homepage to help you choose:
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DAC19/Cable.jpg
   
  Quote: 





vinay said:


> Thanks Buffys..
> I was waiting for a review.. but looks like the more i wait, the delivery would get more delayed.. So i better order soon
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## vinay

Thanks BuFFys.. That was helpful...
  
  Quote: 





buffys said:


> Well i still haven’t had that much time to listen in to it, as i only use it at work (i use my speakers at home). And I am maybe not the best reviewer.
> And the only other headphones besides my Ultrasone are my portable Koss ksc 75. And i say they rock with the NFB-12. But they are not hard to drive!
> 
> But With my Ultrasone 900s listening to Michel Jackson "Stranger in Moscow", I find that the NFB-12 the bass have improved and gotten a more "punch" and quicker response (the Ultrasone are known for their bass). Before in this song, the guitar sounded more like a bass and had a foreword present, but now with the DAC i found it to be more refined and sounding a bit more as a guitar sound, and a bit more in the background.
> ...


----------



## Slaughter

Just got an email that mine shipped yesterday, so disregard my previous comment that they didn't meet the shipping date.


----------



## Elanzer

And you ordered on November 22nd?
   
  Jeeze, it's going to take forever to get mine. I'm waiting on so many "huge" things to come in the mail that have all been delayed repeatedly but are supposed to come within the month, it's ridiculous. Parts for my new computer I'm building, a Pandora handheld PC (preordered Sept 2008), some motorcycle parts, some other misc small electronics for hobby projects ordered in Nov, and now the NFB-12 is added to the list.
   
  Both my Xonar DX soundcard and onboard audio suffer terrible amounts of interference in my PC, I shouldn't have given the Sparrow away to my brother. Everything was great, now my T1 sound like crap because the source is utter crap. If I didn't need something that was reasonably portable like the NFB-12 I'd probably just change my order to the FUN with WM8741.


----------



## Slaughter

Yeah, the 22nd. I hear ya, I just ordered a Bottlehead Crack to build and they are out if stock on some parts so now I have to wait on that as well. Oh well. Should get the crack and nfb12 close together which will be fun.


----------



## Elanzer

Well, they just told me they will arrange for shipment this saturday, so maybe not such a long wait. I ordered on Dec 17th.


----------



## dubai2000

I had never got an answer to any of my mails, but today I received a shipping number.....so things seem to be moving 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Dynobot

Quote: 





poultrygeist said:


> "Has anyone purchased from Pacific Valve before?"
> 
> Yes, when I needed a replacement socket for a tube amp they wouldn't sell me one or advise where to buy it. A friend tried to get some missing screws for his remote but they had none. PV buys unaltered products directly from China and customers pay a huge markup for service they don't deliver.


 

 With regards to AGD product you actually SAVE money because you can buy any AGD product at the same price listed on the AGD web site, shipped FREE.  You just have to wait a little longer because PV with double box and forward to your address.  Also they are Authorized to repair AGD products so if something goes wrong you dont have to ship all the way back to China.
   
  Two sides to every coin.


----------



## scaud

Audio-GD quoted me the NFB-12 right now for $234.60 shipped DHL.  Pacific Valve has it right now for $237.00.  Seems like the shipping from China gets folded in to the price.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

My NFB-12 arrived yesterday. Ordered on 11/22, received notice of shipping on 1/12, delivered 1/18. Not too bad.
   
  It's still early of course, but my initial reaction is... the NFB-12 is much colder and more neutral than the DAC-19/C2 combination I previously owned. I won't comment further on the sound until I've run it in a bit more. It's a marvel for its size and price, and is without a doubt a great unit for the office.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





scaud said:


> Audio-GD quoted me the NFB-12 right now for $234.60 shipped DHL.  Pacific Valve has it right now for $237.00.  Seems like the shipping from China gets folded in to the price.


 


  I've compared buying from PV and A-GD on several occasions, and in each case the quoted price was within a few dollars of each other. Once you take into account PayPal fees and shipping costs charged by Audio-GD for direct orders, there is essentially no markup in the Pacific Valve price.


----------



## madwolf

Ordered on 9 Dec receive this today. 
   
   
   
  Dear Sir,
   [size=12pt]Your goods we had sent out yesterday,and because the DHL tracking number need several days then can received,so that as long as we received the tracking number,we will sent it to you,thanks.[/size]

 Audio-gd.


----------



## BuFFys

Congratulations madwolf! you will probably receive the unit quicker then the tracking number... And I Think that DHL Express HK->Singapore should be rather quick!


----------



## Pushifer

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Well, they just told me they will arrange for shipment this saturday, so maybe not such a long wait. I ordered on Dec 17th.


 

 Oh boy, I asked them today and I was told they would try to send it before the 28, But I bought mine Dec 15th. 
   
  Please do tell me if they ship yours this weeked, if they don't do the same to me I will cancel my order.


----------



## Poultrygeist

I ordered the NFB-12 for it's DAC but the headphone capability has started me to look in that direction. I haven't had a pair of phones since the old Koss Pro4 A's back in the day. I do have other amp options such as a Topping TP21 and Marantz integraded with headphone jacks as well as a Miniwatt S1( headphone adaptor is available ). Can I assume that the NFB-12 would be a better headphone amp than these other options?
   
  As far as a good match for the NFB-12 should I be considering the entry level Grado's or something on the higher end such as the Senn HD600 or the AKG K701?
   
  Thanks in advance for any advise.


----------



## BuFFys

The NFB-12 will be better then any Integrated amp´s headphone out, they are design to driver speakers and not headphones and are usually only speaker-out+resistor. The headphone out in  Integrated amps is just a bad future to sell more units, and not quality. So any dedicated headphone amp will sound better.
   
  Well i think you can enjoy the NFB-12 with Grado SR80 or Alessandro ms-1 as these sound better amped too, so you not "wasting" the power of cheaper phones. It´s all up to how much you want to spend and witch sound you want.


----------



## Pushifer

Hi, 
   
  I'm preparing for the NFB-12, so before it arrives I need to buy some cables. I do have a question.
   
  Lots of ppl, not only in this thread, do say that it's better to use the Optical / Coax, compared with the USB input.
   
  I have a X-fi Xtreme Music that only has a flexijack I/O
   
  So I will need to buy:
   
  - Mini -> rca cable ; for coax input
  - Mini -> Toslink  ; for optical input
   
   
  Is one solution of this better then the other ?


----------



## BuFFys

To computer i will always recommend optical, if you have ground problem in your computer optical will not be affected as coaxial. But i don’t think you will hear any difference between coxial and optical.
  
  You will get a small optical cable with your NFB-12, and if its size fits you, you can always by a cheap minitoslin->toslink adapter for a really small sum.
 i got my today for 1,5USD, will try it out tomorrow!
http://www.amazon.com/Toslink-To-Optical-Mini-Adapter/dp/B0002MQGRM


----------



## borrego

One can get this USB Isolator to get rid of the ground loop problem: http://www.circuitsathome.com/products-page/usb-interfaces/


----------



## movi

hi everyone,
   
  my Audio-GD NFB-12 is on the way, and I'm wondering what the best way to connect it to my desktop is. i will need 5 feet of cable length, and it would need to go through one fairly tight 90-degree bend when it comes down off the top of my desk into the gap between the desk and the wall and down to my computer. for this reason, i was thinking i might prefer coax over optical? any thoughts on this?
   
  one other quick question... i will be using ASIO/Winamp bit-perfect output. if i have a soundcard installed, but use the optical or coax out on my motherboard to connect to the NFB-12, the sound will bypass the Windows k-mixer and my soundcard and stream directly to the DAC, right?
   
  thanks.


----------



## Slaughter

I wouldn't bend a cable 90 degrees. If you arch it a little, then you shouldn't have such a drastic bend. Optical cables tend to be more flexible though, but can't handle as much abuse. If I am not mistaken your motherboard audio would need to support ASIO. You should still be able to kernel streaming or WASAPI (not sure if available for winamp) that will bypass kmixer.
  
  Quote: 





movi said:


> hi everyone,
> 
> my Audio-GD NFB-12 is on the way, and I'm wondering what the best way to connect it to my desktop is. i will need 5 feet of cable length, and it would need to go through one fairly tight 90-degree bend when it comes down off the top of my desk into the gap between the desk and the wall and down to my computer. for this reason, i was thinking i might prefer coax over optical? any thoughts on this?
> 
> ...


----------



## runnin17

Received my NFB-12 today and listened to it with my MP-301 amp and DT990's for about two hours. I would say that it does a good job with most music that I listened to. Mainly ran through some Ray Charles, Chopin and The Killers just to see how it handled different styles. I think it is a pretty forgiving amp overall. I did notice a little noise from the USB connection while using it. I will try it via optical and see if I have better results.
   
  Overall I am really impressed and this is a great little DAC for the money. It destroys my iBasso cobra IMO.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





movi said:


> hi everyone,
> 
> my Audio-GD NFB-12 is on the way, and I'm wondering what the best way to connect it to my desktop is. i will need 5 feet of cable length, and it would need to go through one fairly tight 90-degree bend when it comes down off the top of my desk into the gap between the desk and the wall and down to my computer. for this reason, i was thinking i might prefer coax over optical? any thoughts on this?
> 
> ...


 

 Coax cables are pretty darn bendable, I wouldn't worry at all about a 90 degree bend.
   
  Optical shouldn't have sharp bends, I would suggest adjusting your computer location, or desk, to spread out the bend to a greater area of the cable as opposed to a single point. Use a lot of duct tape tightly wrapped around the bend area to help spread out the bend too. Whether you like optical or coax more is a personal choice , but seems more people prefer coax than optical. Coax and usb with well-built cables sound more detailed to me, but I prefer the optical out of my mp3 player and sonicwave glass toslink cable. Glass toslink does cost relatively more than some well-built coax cables, and is easily damaged from bending or scratched lens, so keep that in mind if you decide to get a glass toslink.
   
  Use asio4all to give your motherboard integrated soundcard the ability to play bit-perfect. If you have windows 7, I think the steps to set up bit-perfect are fewer but different.


----------



## movi

great stuff, thanks for the advice guys
   
  one other question about the terminations of a Coax cable. if I am going from my motherboard coax out to the NFB-12 coax input, it is RCA-to-RCA, yes?
   
  thanks


----------



## Slaughter

Yes. 
  
  Quote: 





movi said:


> great stuff, thanks for the advice guys
> 
> one other question about the terminations of a Coax cable. if I am going from my motherboard coax out to the NFB-12 coax input, it is RCA-to-RCA, yes?
> 
> thanks


----------



## dubai2000

Got mine NFB-12 this morning. Shipping was fast (DHL to Europe). I hooked it up to my Laptop and...bummer.....USB input distorts......even tried one of those USB isolating devices....no good. Using coax in from a CDP it works, but not USB in. Any suggestions? Player is foobar.


----------



## runnin17

Quote: 





dubai2000 said:


> Got mine NFB-12 this morning. Shipping was fast (DHL to Europe). I hooked it up to my Laptop and...bummer.....USB input distorts......even tried one of those USB isolating devices....no good. Using coax in from a CDP it works, but not USB in. Any suggestions? Player is foobar.


 


  What do you mean by distorts? what is happening to the sound?


----------



## dubai2000

Well, the sound isn't clear....it sounds as if it pulsates or distortes while playing. Tried different players.....but no change (so goes for restarting Windows).


----------



## Slaughter

Did you try different ports? Battery vs AC?


----------



## jermng

I don't use Foobar, but when I use VLC player, the volume on the software player has to be at 100% or less otherwise the sound distorts on my other DACs. The max volume on the software player is 400% - you might wanna check that.


----------



## dubai2000

It seems indeed to be a hardware problem. Using it on my very old PC with Linux no problem. My laptop doesn't seem to be able to use the unit using either foobar or J.Rivers with asio or kernel output.....only DS plays fine.
  Anyway, so far I like what I hear......the sound is very clear and open, fatigue I cannot detect yet. Cans are Denon D2000. So far, so good.


----------



## squall343

if u are using foobar, can try adjusting the buffer length


----------



## dubai2000

Putting the NFB-12 through its paces I must say I am really impressed. If it wasn't a Dac/Amp combo I'd say it rocks big time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Putting on live recordings such as Fleetwood Mac's The Dance or Eric Clapton in Hyde Park gives you the feeling of just being there. The unit is fast and prat comes through very nicely. I've been playing classical and jazz as well. Same impression. Not only is there authoritative control, no, also instrumental and vocal timbres are portrayed quite realistically. Of course if a recording is really crap, it shows. But you don't need any audiophile disc to appreciate the NFB-12. So until now I am still a happy camper.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## madwolf

Got mine today, If you ship using DHL they will ship to product from GuangZhou to Hong Hong via China Post and from Hong Kong they use DHL. 
  There is no instruction manual. But the build quality is top notch. I am constantly surprise by their soldering skill. 
   
  I open up the NFB12 before I even listen to it and was amaze by the engineering. Since this is a Prototype launch I am not surprise to find a rework. 
  But it was amazing done 
   

   
  I did a quick check it was GPO and GPO2 Pin. This 2 is used to configure the WM8805 for the various function. 
  Not within the signal path. 
   
  I like the way the Amplifier section is arrange. Very beautifully done. 
   

   
  What surprise me what the transformer. It is a bit small and light.
  One possible mod would be to Use a bigger Transformer in a secondary enclosure to feed this.
   
  There are at 3 nos of 317 linear regulator for the digital section and 1 7805 
  3 more pair of KingWa's discrete regulator for the analogue section ( 3 pair as in 3 positive and 3 negative). 
   
  I am now listening to my NFB12 with the case open. Some of the heatsink is warm to the touch. 
  Burning in now.


----------



## publicholiday

Ain't it beautiful? planning to upgrade my audio rig, do you guys think I can solve the usb and ground noise by using Hud-mx1 as optical converter to NFB12?


----------



## Elanzer

If you have the choice of optical to the nfb-12 in the first place, why would you use a separate unit to convert optical to USB to get around the grounding issue for USB? That doesn't make much sense, especially since optical in theory should be better than USB on the NFB-12 anyways. Your groundloop issue shouldn't carry over toslink.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> What surprise me what the transformer. It is a bit small and light.
> One possible mod would be to Use a bigger Transformer in a secondary enclosure to feed this.
> 
> There are at 3 nos of 317 linear regulator for the digital section and 1 7805
> ...


 

 ...I still need to wait till end of February to get it... ...
   
  Madwolf, is the transformer run warm or hot (I know it is encapsulated, so a bit difficult to really know the temperature...)? if it stay barely warm or even cool... then I don't think the bigger  transformer would affect the sound... but if it is felt hot, then bigger transformer (means better regulation) usually could affect the sound... (for better or worse, that's another story...)
   
  have you allocate the cap for the digital section? changing that with Oscon might be a good tweak...


----------



## holland

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *madwolf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> What surprise me what the transformer. It is a bit small and light.
> One possible mod would be to Use a bigger Transformer in a secondary enclosure to feed this.


 


  This shouldn't matter.  What matters is the load on the transformer and it's rated duty.  A shield, dunno, it's hard to say.
   
  That's a nice looking output buffer stage.  It reminds me of the Dynalo.  Can you identify the transistors in the buffer section?


----------



## Elanzer

Ah I just got an email saying mine got shipped out via DHL yesterday, I can't wait.


----------



## rawrster

Does anyone know how Audio GD usually prices their gear after the initial price?


----------



## publicholiday

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> If you have the choice of optical to the nfb-12 in the first place, why would you use a separate unit to convert optical to USB to get around the grounding issue for USB? That doesn't make much sense, especially since optical in theory should be better than USB on the NFB-12 anyways. Your groundloop issue shouldn't carry over toslink.


 


  My laptop doesn't have toslink out


----------



## Mysteek

I asked about the availability of this product and was told it's so in demand that the end of February is when I would get mine shipped.  Dear gosh! @_@


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The transformer is running at around 40degree C. It felt warm I would leave my finger on it for a long time. 
  Yes I know where the caps are for the digital section. They are mainly 25v 100uf. Polymer or OSCON seem to be cool over here. 
   


  Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You mean the individual transistor in the diamond stage ? It is a bit small. I only see the numbers on the pass Transistor in the regulators 
  Need some sunlight.


----------



## mikop

Quote: 





mysteek said:


> I asked about the availability of this product and was told it's so in demand that the end of February is when I would get mine shipped.  Dear gosh! @_@


 


  That mean you will possibly get it at the end of March  
   
  You should still jump on it and get that Lunar New Year discount.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





mikop said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  As long as he doesn't get it shipped by EMS, shipping time shouldn't be so long. China post is so backed up from Christmas that many people haven't received parcels sent in November yet. DHL will probably charge some brokerage fees, but audio-gd seems pretty good about underclaiming the value to help you avoid those charges  - I think my Sparrow was valued at ~$80 on the papers when I received it via EMS?
   
  I think as a default, audio-gd is quoting DHL now anyways, because of the month long delays with EMS.


----------



## BuFFys

My NFB-12 was valued at 85USD when send with DHL.
  The will now change the value lower, so the item is not stock in customs.
   
  well i needed to pay40USD to the swedish customs (tax+customs fee) … but the my governments fault and not Audio-gd……


----------



## dubai2000

Could somebody perhaps post a picture indicating which caps are worth changing?


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> Does anyone know how Audio GD usually prices their gear after the initial price?


 


  ~15% increase from the promo price.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> The transformer is running at around 40degree C. It felt warm I would leave my finger on it for a long time.
> Yes I know where the caps are for the digital section. They are mainly 25v 100uf. Polymer or OSCON seem to be cool over here.


 
   
  40C is fine.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> You mean the individual transistor in the diamond stage ? It is a bit small. I only see the numbers on the pass Transistor in the regulators
> Need some sunlight.


 
   
  Yes, the individual transistors.


----------



## cdanguyen08

might have to sell my ibasso d2 for this. but cant post an ad due to the post count><


----------



## Greg121986

For those of you who have one of these, what is the USB input like? What chip is being used? Is there a digital transformer in the input section like the digital pulse transformer from http://www.scientificonversion.com/dualZo.html ? Can we get a really high res picture of the USB and other inputs section?


----------



## Pushifer

Damn I ordered mine Dec 15th and I haven't got any mail .......
   
  Elanzer can you confirm that you ordered yours day 17 ??


----------



## Slaughter

Wow! Mine left hong kong yesterday, went to Ohio, out for delivery here in Texas. That is fast!


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





pushifer said:


> Damn I ordered mine Dec 15th and I haven't got any mail .......
> 
> Elanzer can you confirm that you ordered yours day 17 ??


 


  I guess I should feel lucky; I got notice that mine had just been shipped out, and I waited until Dec31st to place my order!
   
  I had been talking with them about the NFB-12 for a couple weeks earlier than that, but I don't see why/how they'd start building anything before I made the official order..


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





jupe said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Yea you should, I ordered on the 21st and still haven't gotten a shipping confirmation yet.  I'm very eager to try it out against my HDP.


----------



## rawrster

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thats not a bad price either. It's still a very cheap dac/amp.
   
  Have many people received theirs? I'd love to know how the amplifier performance does. The specs looks to be good but has anyone tried it with some harder to drive headphones?


----------



## Sparky14

The NFB-11 has no problems driving my DT990/600s. I do need the high gain setting though.


----------



## mikop

Well... guess I am one step closer to receiving my NFB-12.  Got the shipment email.  Really excited!


----------



## llama_egg

Lucky dogs, I'm slated for the mid-February release and the wait is killing me! It's bad enough waiting on my Audeze LCD-2 to finally ship out as it is!


----------



## LiqTenExp

Sweeeeeet, just got my email saying my order was shipped out yesterday!  I can't wait.  I am currently redoing my whole collection into flac.


----------



## jermng

lalala .... mine shipped out yesterday too ...


----------



## tarnishedhalo

Ordered mine today. Stuck with the rest of the Feb 15th guys.


----------



## llama_egg

They're still saying February 15th even now? I figured new purchases would likely not to be done till March, wonder if that means they're making good progress on their backlog?


----------



## Slaughter

*Opening* - I haven't had time to compare this to my old DAC and Hybrid Tube amp. I will post again once I get to do a comparison. I am especially intrigued to see how the DAC section stacks up against my old one. I am using FLAC files through the coax out of my X-Fi with bit perfect output.
   
*Package* - Well packed. The optical cable looks decent with a white braided sleeve covered in a clear tubing with gray and yellow plugs. USB and power cable are generic. Came with 10 jumpers as well.
*Build *- This thing is solid and well built. Bottom of mine was scratched up pretty bad, but the rest of the case was in perfect condition. I need to get some rubber feet for it though.
*Highs* - Fairly detailed, but smooth. Doesn't have that decay that goes on forever with things like cymbals. Female vocals that have that Sssss definitely get smoothed out and slightly chopped off. So this might be good or bad depending on your preference. I didn't noticed any difference on High/Low gain.
*Mids* - Forward and energetic on High gain. Slightly more mellow on Low gain. I think this amp shines in the mids. On Low, it was boring at times, but more balanced with the highs. On High I had to listen a tad more to pick out some details, but this was slight.
*Bass* - Fairly tight and very deep. Maybe boomy at times. With my HD580 this was a nice thing, with my M50 it was a bit much at times.
*Soundstage* - Pretty nice, but my initial impression is that it isn't particularly wide or deep. Low gain seemed to provide a tad more depth and High provided less depth, but more width. These differences were slight.
*High/Low gain* - With my 300ohm HD580 I could max out the volume on Low, but it was still at listening level for most music. On High I only got to 11-12 o'clock. With the M50 there was plenty of headroom on both. Most of the differences I talked about were more apparent with the Sennheiser, so I am not sure if that is impedance related or the Senn being the superior headphone. With either phone, the High gain was more dynamic and played effortlessly and with more energy. I can't imagine ever using Low gain.
*Other* - There is music playing at the lowest volume, but this shouldn't be a problem for most. Dead quiet through 11 o'clock with no music playing, then some typical amp hiss creeps in, but it is very low in volume, especially with higher impedance phones.
   
*Conclusion* - Seems like a solid product, especially at this price point. I'm not sure it is the best match for Sennheisers, but only because of the lack of extension in the Highs. Again, a preference thing. With the forward mids, deep bass and smooth top end, this might be a perfect match for the 880/600. I might have to buy it again to test. Again, these are initial impressions, so I might totally change my opinion after a week or so and after I compare to my existing setup.
   
*UPDATE - *A quick comparison to my 13 year old DAC is that the the NFB-12 is congested in the mids and probably not as transparent. Also, comparing the NFB-12 amp to my 3 year old, $90 hybrid tube amp is that the tube amp might be more detailed and dynamic. Sennheisers are known for their synergy with tube amps, so this is not real surprising. More to come....


----------



## littletree76

According to Audio MIDI Setup utility on my iMac, the USB audio interface is displayed as "TE7022 Audio w/ SPDIF". It can support up to 96kHz sample rate and 24-bit bit depth. No driver installation is necessary and the volume levels for both channels can still be adjusted just like iMac's internal speakers.
   
  By comparing between sound outputs through the TE7022 USB interface and through coaxial interface from M2Tech's HiFace Evo USB-to-SPDIF converter, difference is not too much except dynamic and clarity are not as good. HiFace Evo supports up to 192kHz sample rate whereas for TE7022 it is only up to 96kHz sample rate. But when sample rate for HiFace Evo is set to 192kHz in Audio MIDI Setup utility, cracking noise will appear in headphone and line outputs.
  
  Quote: 





greg121986 said:


> For those of you who have one of these, what is the USB input like? What chip is being used? Is there a digital transformer in the input section like the digital pulse transformer from http://www.scientificonversion.com/dualZo.html ? Can we get a really high res picture of the USB and other inputs section?


----------



## haloxt

Slaughter, you probably heard it already, but just wanted to remind you that many people think the sound will change a lot and settle after ~300 hours of use. I almost always listen for the first 10-30 hours and not do any burn-in or warm-up when I get a new gear because I think the first hours of listening is when the sound characteristics of a new gear is most apparent,  because new changes to your setup may be easier to discern, and/or because it is minimally burned in or warmed up.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Slaughter, you probably heard it already, but just wanted to remind you that many people think the sound will change a lot and settle after ~300 hours of use. I almost always listen for the first 10-30 hours and not do any burn-in or warm-up when I get a new gear because I think the first hours of listening is when the sound characteristics of a new gear is most apparent,  because new changes to your setup may be easier to discern, and/or because it is minimally burned in or warmed up.


 
  Agreed.
  Every one of my Audio-gd pieces sounds like you're describing before a good week of use. A little congested and lacking some detail. I am a skeptic of cables and such but I do believe the sounds refines after a few hundred hours. I have ordered this and will test it out. It will compare to my Ref-8/ Phoenix rig.


----------



## Pushifer

Got the email that mine has been shipped.
   
  Already got a HD-650 and DT 880 on the way !!
   
  I'm starting to think that I need to get a really bad cold so I stay at home for some days ....


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





pushifer said:


> Got the email that mine has been shipped.
> 
> Already got a HD-650 and DT 880 on the way !!
> 
> I'm starting to think that I need to get a really bad cold so I stay at home for some days ....


 


  Which version of the DT880 did you get?
  I'd love to hear your impressions after all 3 components have burned in. I've been going back and forth between buying the 880, 990, or the 650. I haven't been able to hear any of them locally, so I decided to just save up for a bit, and to enjoy the NFB-12 for a while before getting anything more.


----------



## Poetik

YES!! I just got an email that mine was sent out yesterday!! I'm in america so probably a week or so right?  DHL is usually pretty fast so I'm thinking a week is about right.


----------



## Slaughter

A week sounds right. Mine was less than a week to Texas.
  
  Quote: 





poetik said:


> YES!! I just got an email that mine was sent out yesterday!! I'm in america so probably a week or so right?  DHL is usually pretty fast so I'm thinking a week is about right.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





jupe said:


> I guess I should feel lucky; I got notice that mine had just been shipped out, and I waited until Dec31st to place my order!
> 
> I had been talking with them about the NFB-12 for a couple weeks earlier than that, but I don't see why/how they'd start building anything before I made the official order..


 

 I ordered mine around the same time, but they said it would ship mid-Feb when I ordered.  I am anxious to see how this performs compared to a few home built DACs, including a dual WM8741 DAC I built.  FWIW, I think integrated gives the best signal integrity.  If only this had a relay driven R2R pot instead of the wire...but that is in their higher end offerings.


----------



## SpoolinEclipse

Haven't been on Head-fi for a while, I had ordered my NFB-12 in November, and was just browsing through here checking for updates, now reading some people ordered in December and theres have shipped already, I sent an email to audio-gd canceling my order.  Was looking forward to it, but imo thats just messed up.


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





spoolineclipse said:


> Haven't been on Head-fi for a while, I had ordered my NFB-12 in November, and was just browsing through here checking for updates, now reading some people ordered in December and theres have shipped already, I sent an email to audio-gd canceling my order.  Was looking forward to it, but imo thats just messed up.


 

 I followed up with audio gd on my payment just to confirm that it would go out.  Did you get a confirmation email after you payed them and did your payment go through?  Who knows, maybe they're sending it out in alphabetical order or maybe they just don't like DSM's haha.


----------



## SpoolinEclipse

Well I got an update with Audio-Gd, I explained to them what happened, and when I ordered.  They said they'll manage to get one shipped before the festival so that's good.


----------



## Kassem

So tempted to order... good god.  Waiting for more reviews.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Slaughter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> With the forward mids, deep bass and smooth top end, this might be a perfect match for the 880/600.


 
   
  This is pretty much the same conclusion most other people have come to with the Sparrow/FUN with WM8741 for the DT880/DT990. With the WM8741 they're slightly warm on the sound signature and smooth over the shrill frequencies and sibilance on the Beyers, while still retaining the great level of detail that the Beyers are known for and providing a small extra kick of bass. Using my Sparrow with my T1 was very nice all around and I really had no complaints, since the T1 is more or less a super-DT880 the result should be pretty similar.
   
  NFB-12 + DT880 600-Ohm is probably the best all-around mid-fi selection I can think at only ~$400 for the combo (excl tax and shipping).


----------



## Slaughter

Yeah, I am tempted to buy it again because it seems to address the issues I had with the 880. Mainly the bass and mids. I will wait until I have a few more hours on it to see if I am going to keep it. I also have Bottlehead Crack tube amp on the way, so I need to throw that into the mix as well.
   
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Currawong

Slaughter: Nice write-up.  I'd too be interested to see how you felt after leaving it switched on for a couple of weeks.  Also as a source for the Crack when it arrives.  I'd agree though that the best match with the low-end Audio-gd gear tended to be low-impedance cans, even the LCD-2s.


----------



## bannedman3

Slaughter:
   
  Did you have a change to use it with your M50s? If you did, how did it sound?


----------



## Slaughter

You can see my review on the previous page which included some impressions with the m50. I need to spend some dedicated time with it though. I'll update my review in a week or so. The only negative was the bass was boomy and went into the lower mids. This will hopefully tighten up. The somewhat smooth highs were nice match fir the m50. The MUDs were brought out as well if I remember correctly. 






bannedman3 said:


> Slaughter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Wen-Li

Got mine today  While I didn't get to buying decent phones, as Christmas and too many other money costing stuff got in the way , I'm already impressed!
   
  Problem is that after setting it up withUSB/ASIO4ALL I get some clicking whenever I change track/position or hit Stop/Pause.


----------



## thuantran

That's normal, as samples are cut of suddenly. With DirectSound, Windows has feature to add fading so you don't have that problem.


----------



## migman

Mine shipped yesterday.  I am anxious to compare it to the Grant Fidelity DAC09 I have as well.  Ultimately it will be paired up with a Squeezebox Touch (FLAC) on the source side and a Schiit Audio Lyr on the amp side driving M50s(for now).  Can't wait.


----------



## Kassem

I have a Heed Canamp already.  Thinking about getting this NFB-12 just because I need a new DAC and the price point is right where I need it to be.  I could go a little higher, say 300$, maybe, but I really think this is what I want to try out.
   
  How do you guys think the amp in the NFB-12 would compare to my heed?  If I can get by with the NFB-12 amp, i'll sell my heed so I can fund more headphone purchases 
   
  Opinions?


----------



## Slaughter

Quick update with the M50 - I am pretty impressed now. The soundstage is wide, tall and open with good instrument separation. Mids sound great, highs sound great. As good as I have heard them. Bass has tightened up a little and has some good impact. There is some fuzziness with the lower notes on guitars and some male vocals, but it's not bad, just not transparent. This is probably more the M50 than the amp. Still, Low gain isn't as good as High. Overall I would say the M50 / NFB-12 is an excellent combo. 
   
  Currawong - Thanks and I am thinking you are right about the impedance. I don't think I really like it with my HD580, but I need to spend some more time. I have been focusing on the M50 today.


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The Transistors used are marked C2240 and A970. I believe they are 2SC2240 and 2SA970. The same transistors are used in the amplifier as well as the power supply. 
   
  I was trying to take out the PCB and found that the screw are soldered on. It would seem that it is not that easy to change a few component. 
  I know how to remove that but needed a 60W or higher soldering iron to work with. 
   
  I noted that there are 2 nos of TL072 OP AMP on the PCB wounder what this is for. 
  They might be for DC servo as there is a 1004 resistor just beside it. But it seem there are 2 DC servo for each channel ?


----------



## movi

just an FYI for those waiting. my order went in end of December, with an original ship date of Jan 28 at the latest. that has now been pushed back to late February delivery


----------



## Kassem

I want to know NFB-12 vs NFB-3


----------



## llama_egg

Holy, this is getting ridiculous, placed my Order at the beginning of January figuring a month and a half wouldn't be too bad, but if your December order is getting pushed back it's likely that those slated for the February 15th date are going to get pushed into March.
  
  Quote: 





movi said:


> just an FYI for those waiting. my order went in end of December, with an original ship date of Jan 28 at the latest. that has now been pushed back to late February delivery


----------



## Currawong

Christmas + Chinese New Year = chaos.  This happened last year too.  If it is any consolation, for the HD-800s, Symphones Magnums, Pico Slim and Grado HF-2s I collectively waited about a year or more after ordering each.


----------



## tlniec

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> The Transistors used are marked C2240 and A970. I believe they are 2SC2240 and 2SA970. The same transistors are used in the amplifier as well as the power supply.
> 
> I was trying to take out the PCB and found that the screw are soldered on. It would seem that it is not that easy to change a few component.
> I know how to remove that but needed a 60W or higher soldering iron to work with.
> ...


 

 Wait, what?  The screws are soldered on?  I would expect Audio-GD would use standard stainless steel fasteners, which are not solderable.  They may have grounding straps under the screwheads, which could be soldered... although that seems redundant, as clamping the clad areas of the circuit card to chassis would provide a sufficient chassis ground path.  Are you sure the screws aren't just retained by a locking mechanism (locking nut/patch, or possibly liquid-staking on the threads)?  Sorry to interject, it's just that I've really not seen solderable screws before (solderable rivets and pressed-in studs, sure - just not screws).  Just seems very unconventional.


----------



## Slaughter

Another update - Spent some time with the HD580 tonight and the M50. The NFB-12 as an amp works decent with the 580 but lacks some dynamics compared to my other amp. It also has less decay of notes and adds some boominess to guitars/pianos. So while it is decent, it definitely wouldn't be my first choice as an amp for the Senns. I also reaffirmed my previous statement that the M50 and NFB-12 are an excellent combo. I could live with this as my only setup, it's that good. The only other comparison I am going to do is with my old DAC, hopefully next week.


----------



## Kassem

Whats your other amp?
   
  Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Another update - Spent some time with the HD580 tonight and the M50. The NFB-12 as an amp works decent with the 580 but lacks some dynamics compared to my other amp. It also has less decay of notes and adds some boominess to guitars/pianos. So while it is decent, it definitely wouldn't be my first choice as an amp for the Senns. I also reaffirmed my previous statement that the M50 and NFB-12 are an excellent combo. I could live with this as my only setup, it's that good. The only other comparison I am going to do is with my old DAC, hopefully next week.


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Another update - Spent some time with the HD580 tonight and the M50. The NFB-12 as an amp works decent with the 580 but lacks some dynamics compared to my other amp. It also has less decay of notes and adds some boominess to guitars/pianos. So while it is decent, it definitely wouldn't be my first choice as an amp for the Senns. I also reaffirmed my previous statement that the M50 and NFB-12 are an excellent combo. I could live with this as my only setup, it's that good. The only other comparison I am going to do is with my old DAC, hopefully next week.


 


  Thanks for all your impressions and updates, I'm getting really excited (and impatient) to get my NFB-12.
  It's spent 4 days meandering through Hong Kong now, I cannot wait for it to hop the pond.


----------



## Slaughter

Cheap DIY SOHA Tube Hybrid amp. I liked the M50 better straight from the NFB-12, but with the 580 the tube amp beat it easily.
  
  Quote: 





kassem said:


> Whats your other amp?
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 


  No problem. Doesn't seem to be a lot of people giving updates, so I thought I would. I might also do a coax/optical/usb comparison as well. Started using the USB tonight and have no complaints, but want to see if they are different.


  Quote: 





jupe said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Handberg

Do you think the NFB-12 and AKG K702 would be a good match?
   

 *Rated impedance* 62 ohms *Max. input power* 200 mW


----------



## treaves

How is this 'getting ridiculous'? They never told you it would ship on Feb 15th; they told you it would not ship until Feb 15th.  That means on or after the 15th.  And that could very well mean March.  If you were not prepared to wait, perhaps you should not have ordered.
   
   
  Quote: 





llama_egg said:


> Holy, this is getting ridiculous, placed my Order at the beginning of January figuring a month and a half wouldn't be too bad, but if your December order is getting pushed back it's likely that those slated for the February 15th date are going to get pushed into March.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


----------



## Wen-Li

Quote: 





thuantran said:


> That's normal, as samples are cut of suddenly. With DirectSound, Windows has feature to add fading so you don't have that problem.


 

 Ok, thanks. i wonder why I never got this with Creative Soundcard and ASIO tough.
   
   
  Quote: 





handberg said:


> Do you think the NFB-12 and AKG K702 would be a good match?
> 
> 
> *Rated impedance* 62 ohms *Max. input power* 200 mW


 

 I'm wondering too what the best Headphone would be.
  I was thinking about getting the HD600 but now I'm so sure. :/
   
  Has anyone tested the NFB12 with HD600/Hd650 or anything else you can think of in the 250-500$ range?


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





tlniec said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  See for yourself what they did, it is not only 1 but at least 6 or maybe even 8. I am sure it is not for grounding 
  

   
  Some are at very hard to reach places, This one is just under the power connector. 

   
  There is one on the other side of the power socket right in the corner. Which even for me to take photo is difficult. 
  In fact almost all the corner ones are soldered. To solder this on the screw, would takes plenty of heat. 
   
  Need at least 2 skills personal to remove this kind of locking mechanism. One to apply the heat and one to unscrew.


----------



## LiqTenExp

naw, just use a solder sucker or some solder wick.  It would remove the solder immediately.  1 person operation here.


----------



## llama_egg

Yes, because I definitely said that I wasn't prepared to wait. What I'm getting at is the company has on multiple occasions given people _actual_ dates (if I'm remembering correctly) and have not met them, they seem to constantly go over the date their shooting for instead of meeting it. Delays do happen, I've been part of the tech world long enough to have a good understanding of that, trust me, but these delays are _not surprises _, it's not like Christmas, Chinese New Years, and the upcoming holiday they're having in February came out of nowhere. If they've had other delays the definitely don't mention them from what I've seen.
   
  I would much prefer them go out and say "We're _aiming _to get them released around [Date X], but chances are that they'll won't be finished for a couple months after that due too [Reason]." It's about letting people know what's going on.
  
  Quote: 





treaves said:


> How is this 'getting ridiculous'? They never told you it would ship on Feb 15th; they told you it would not ship until Feb 15th.  That means on or after the 15th.  And that could very well mean March.  If you were not prepared to wait, perhaps you should not have ordered.


----------



## Slaughter

You can read all my reviews over the past 3 pages for my HD580 which will apply to the HD600 as well.
  
  Quote: 





wen-li said:


> I'm wondering too what the best Headphone would be.
> I was thinking about getting the HD600 but now I'm so sure. :/
> 
> Has anyone tested the NFB12 with HD600/Hd650 or anything else you can think of in the 250-500$ range?


----------



## holland

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> The Transistors used are marked C2240 and A970. I believe they are 2SC2240 and 2SA970. The same transistors are used in the amplifier as well as the power supply.
> 
> I was trying to take out the PCB and found that the screw are soldered on. It would seem that it is not that easy to change a few component.
> I know how to remove that but needed a 60W or higher soldering iron to work with.
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for the transistor parts!  They are nice audio transistors.  You might be able to unscrew the PCB from under the case, leaving the standoffs with the PCB.
   
  TL072 is a double opamp, so you would only need 1 for DC servo, 2 channels on 1 opamp.  If it's a TL071, then yes, there would be 2.  You would need to trace the circuit to find out what it's for.  A servo is necessary, IMO.  I wouldn't run a diamond buffer in complete open loop.


----------



## llama_egg

Would soldering the screws even accomplish anything? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one, so maybe I'm just missing something?


----------



## holland

Quote: 





llama_egg said:


> Would soldering the screws even accomplish anything? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one, so maybe I'm just missing something?


 


  They want the removal from the underside, not the top.  So, yes, it accomplishes something.


----------



## panda-R

Quote: 





llama_egg said:


> Yes, because I definitely said that I wasn't prepared to wait. What I'm getting at is the company has on multiple occasions given people _actual_ dates (if I'm remembering correctly) and have not met them, they seem to constantly go over the date their shooting for instead of meeting it. Delays do happen, I've been part of the tech world long enough to have a good understanding of that, trust me, but these delays are _not surprises _, it's not like Christmas, Chinese New Years, and the upcoming holiday they're having in February came out of nowhere. If they've had other delays the definitely don't mention them from what I've seen.
> 
> I would much prefer them go out and say "We're _aiming _to get them released around [Date X], but chances are that they'll won't be finished for a couple months after that due too [Reason]." It's about letting people know what's going on.
> 
> ...


 

 If you really had an understanding about delays then you'd realize holidays aren't the only things that can contribute to your NFB-12 being delayed and ruining your life. Did you consider they might be short staffed for all their orders? Parts shortages? Unexpected things like someone stealing all the volume knobs? Other surprises like the easter bunny popping out of the closet and having a crazy party with the audio-gd staff.
   
  It's not the end of the world that these NFB-12's  are delayed so relax and find something more useful to do than complain about a handmade product that was for the most part made to order, that has been delayed.


----------



## Cankin

For those of you who are bothered by the long wait time, just email Kingwa and ask for refund. I did it and Kingwa refunded my money in less than 3 hours.
   
  But after a few days, I changed my mind and placed an order for NFB-12 again


----------



## bleho

Man I don't know whether I should just buy an Audinst now, or suck it up and wait for like a month for an NFB-12... what should I doooo...


----------



## holland

Quote: 





bleho said:


> *what should I doooo...*


 


  PM me.  I will tell you what to do, but my advice costs $20,000 USD.


----------



## bleho

Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Lol wait what I'm confused


----------



## panda-R

Quote: 





bleho said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  LULz, PM me instead, I only charge half of that.


----------



## llama_egg

I can't figure out _why_ you're blowing what I'm saying way out of the freaking water. I _never_ said it was ruining my life, and I'm _not _complaining about the product itself (if I was do you think I would _still_ have my order placed?), I'm voicing my concerns regarding the communication between customer and company.
   
  Did I consider any of that stuff you mentioned? Yes, but _they've never mentioned any of it._ What they do mention is an upcoming Holiday and asking if they should resume selling a different product. This bothers me as it's not hard to say "Sorry guys, we're getting backed up so things will be slow going". We only know about the newest delay because someone mentioned it, and it just bugs me.
   
  It's not the end of the world that someone's not pleased with the communication between customer and company so relax and find something more useful to do than complain about someones annoyance with it. See, I can do the exact same thing as you! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





panda-r said:


> If you really had an understanding about delays then you'd realize holidays aren't the only things that can contribute to your NFB-12 being delayed and ruining your life. Did you consider they might be short staffed for all their orders? Parts shortages? Unexpected things like someone stealing all the volume knobs? Other surprises like the easter bunny popping out of the closet and having a crazy party with the audio-gd staff.
> It's not the end of the world that these NFB-12's  are delayed so relax and find something more useful to do than complain about a handmade product that was for the most part made to order, that has been delayed.


----------



## Poetik

For everyone that's complaining you should cancel your orders so other people can get theirs faster ^_^*


----------



## panda-R

Quote: 





llama_egg said:


> I can't figure out _why_ you're blowing what I'm saying way out of the freaking water.
> 
> 
> It's not the end of the world that someone's not pleased with the communication between customer and company so relax and find something more useful to do than complain about someones annoyance with it. See, I can do the exact same thing as you!


 
   
  It's what I do best, to get under your skin, to make you love me, etc... I guess us Canadians really have nothing better to do than to squabble over the internet. Thats why CANADA IS THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!
   
  oh yeah, and you can't expect a company to report everything to you. I think it's a general understanding if you want an update on your order that you should initiate some contact and find out. They respond very well to emails and perhaps even better through a phone call


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





llama_egg said:


> it's not hard to say "Sorry guys, we're getting backed up so things will be slow going"


 


  Someone's clearly never tried to learn any form of Chinese. ;]
   
  I can only imagine what half of our emails come across as once they translate it.


----------



## llama_egg

Learning Japanese, does that count? 
   
  Though for giggles I translated "Sorry guys, we're getting backed up so things will be slow going" into Chinese and back to English, only to get this enjoyable Jibberish; "Sorry, guys, we are supporting such a thing, it will definitely slow the pace of development,". Didn't turn out as bad as I figured it would!


----------



## bannedman3

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Quick update with the M50 - I am pretty impressed now. The soundstage is wide, tall and open with good instrument separation. Mids sound great, highs sound great. As good as I have heard them. Bass has tightened up a little and has some good impact. There is some fuzziness with the lower notes on guitars and some male vocals, but it's not bad, just not transparent. This is probably more the M50 than the amp. Still, Low gain isn't as good as High. Overall I would say the M50 / NFB-12 is an excellent combo.
> 
> Currawong - Thanks and I am thinking you are right about the impedance. I don't think I really like it with my HD580, but I need to spend some more time. I have been focusing on the M50 today.


 


  Thanks for the update!
   
  I think this will be the perfect upgrade for my M50's.  Ordering now.


----------



## jermng

FWIW, mine shipped 2 days earlier than the second promised date they gave me. 
   
  DHL delivered to my house this afternoon but I'm in the office now ... will probably try it out tonight if I have the time and see how it sounds ....


----------



## Jor-El

My amp, my AMP!
 Has not come yet.....

 Been waiting since December from the AudioGD agent in UK.

 They told me that they have been receiving NFB-12s from AudioGD as they've been making them,
 and will ship out to us as they receive and test them by end of January.

 What's the date?
 31 Jan 2011.

 My question is - who in this forum that ordered NFB-12s from AmpCity has received theirs already?
 I'm trying to gauge what's actually happening
 AND
 whether I really am gonna receive them soon..
 OR
 am just another victim of PR hogwash.

 Any takers?


----------



## tlniec

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> See for yourself what they did, it is not only 1 but at least 6 or maybe even 8. I am sure it is not for grounding
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sure enough.  That is strange - unconventional.  Someone in a later post suggested the intent might be to prevent someone from removing the screw from this side.  That makes sense, I suppose.


----------



## Elanzer

So I just got my NFB-12 today. Using optical from my PC to the NFB-12 and plugging my T1 in directly, the sound is far better than Xonar DX + LD MKIII combo that I was using in the short term after I gave my Sparrow away. The sound is warmer, crisper, and sounds separation is better. Everything just feels "fuller". I had to remove the equalizer setting I was using in the meanwhile which was boosting the lower to mid bass by a couple dB, and removing a couple dBs from the highs, because it was overly warm after putting the NFB-12 in place. It's just right with the EQ off, I could settle with using this as a dedicated DAC/Amp for my T1, DT990, or DT880. I could definitely see why the NFB-12 wouldn't be too suitable for Sennheisers like the HD580/600/650 as it would make an already warm headphone that much more veiled, it seems like the NFB-11 would be better suited for those as it's a brighter, more revealing DAC/amp (and also less forgiving with recording).
   
  Setting it to High gain on about 10'o clock gets the highest comfortable volume for me on my T1, on low gain it needs to be set at around 3'o clock or more, and even then still sounds kind of hollow.
   
  The size of the unit is quite a bit longer than my Sparrow was, it's actually almost identical in size to the LD MKIII in width and length, just not height because of the MKIII'd transformer and tubes sticking out top.
   
  Tried USB briefly to see if it experienced some issues other people had with noise - no issues, the optical vs USB isn't easy for me to differentiate, but I didn't bother using USB very long.
   
  Using it as a dedicated DAC, mine came with it set to "variable only" so I had to open it up and change the jumper. The gain switch still works in fixed mode, setting High gain is required to get proper output to my LD MKIII (which is also set to it's highest gain setting), it seemingly works out perfectly because it allows the MKIII to sit at the perfect 11-12'o clock on the volume pot for a maximum usable volume.
   
  Anyways I've only used it for about half an hour, so it's hard to really say too much more. Everything is just better, this was the slight warmth that my T1 needed to make them perfect for me again.
   
  Also, here's a picture


----------



## Kassem

Thanks for writing that up after only having it for a little bit.  
   
  Cmon people, follow suit.  Tell me what you _hear._
  
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> So I just got my NFB-12 today. Using optical from my PC to the NFB-12 and plugging my T1 in directly, the sound is far better than Xonar DX + LD MKIII combo that I was using in the short term after I gave my Sparrow away. The sound is warmer, crisper, and sounds separation is better. Everything just feels "fuller". I had to remove the equalizer setting I was using in the meanwhile which was boosting the lower to mid bass by a couple dB, and removing a couple dBs from the highs, because it was overly warm after putting the NFB-12 in place. It's just right with the EQ off, I could settle with using this as a dedicated DAC/Amp for my T1, DT990, or DT880. I could definitely see why the NFB-12 wouldn't be too suitable for Sennheisers like the HD580/600/650 as it would make an already warm headphone that much more veiled, it seems like the NFB-11 would be better suited for those as it's a brighter, more revealing DAC/amp (and also less forgiving with recording).
> 
> Setting it to High gain on about 10'o clock gets the highest comfortable volume for me on my T1, on low gain it needs to be set at around 3'o clock or more, and even then still sounds kind of hollow.
> 
> ...


----------



## BoyNamedSue

Got mine today as well, and I cannot stop listening to it! It is giving new life to songs I've listened to so many times before. I totally agree with Elanzer take that everything sounds "fuller." I have it hooked up USB to my PC with foobar, and have no problems. I think the HD650s sound amazing with it - I'm getting no veil whatsoever and actually think it has made the HD650s much more fun to listen to.
   
  I'm a bit confused with the whole variable versus fixed mode. I want to use my amplified speakers (m-audio bx5a) with the DAC out - what would be the recommended setting if I want to use the NFB-12 to control volume? Do I need to change any jumpers??


----------



## Elanzer

Fixed just means the NFB-12 has no part in volume control (equal to setting the NFB-12 to 12o'clock). Variable means that the volume knob on the NFB-12 controls the output to the speakers. If you want to use the speaker's volume control then you would want fixed. There's nothing to change to get variable output so the NFB-12 can control the speaker's volume, just set the dial to variable dac-out and go at it.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

Thanks for the response. I guess I can just use the switch in front to set it variable - so easy!


----------



## ingyang

Wow so many people got it already , and many more are waiting ..
  Placed my order on Sunday ,
  Seems a long wait till early March ,
  but based on the reviews so far , it seems very positive !  (( 
  Gotta stick around with uDAC2 for some time !


----------



## Jupe

I also just got mine in the mail today. I was so anxious when I followed the tracking number, I'm glad the waiting's finally over.
  
  Quote: 





kassem said:


> Thanks for writing that up after only having it for a little bit.
> 
> Cmon people, follow suit.  Tell me what you _hear._


 

 I've only been running the NFB-12 for maybe an hour, and for the most part should probably keep my mouth shut since this is my first DAC/amp. But I'm excited, and want to share my excitement, so a couple comments couldn't hurt too much, right?
   
  Like Slaughter had mentioned in his initial impressions, the bass is pretty boomy with my M50's. This really caught me off guard, as I've always liked an extra helping of bass in some of my songs, but in my dubstep playlist (a genre that practically doesn't exist outside of bass), it was almost too much to listen to. I wanted so badly to bring out the mids, which I've never found myself needing (despite the endless "recessed mids" being preached about the M50's), but I'll trust that the bass will tame up a bit with time.
   
  I also have a collection of songs I can only describe as psy-dub, which I enjoy for drawing and/or meditation. I thought I had exhausted these songs to death, but with the new DAC I feel like they have a new energy, like I'm a little more immersed into the music, and definitely have a better sense of spatial recognition. It's not a jaw-dropping difference, but the soundstage is definitely larger (especially on high gain), which I'm really starting to appreciate with some of my more mellow songs.
   
  Another thing I wanted to mention was the hiss: I've gotten use to a constant low hiss from my laptop when nothing's playing, and even though I've read how much that bugs some people, I told myself it wasn't enough to distract me from my music, so why should I care? Well I'm happy to report that with no music playing, the NFB-12 is dead silent. Even on some FLAC files that I could've sworn had a hiss in the file themselves are crystal clear, with no hiss in the quiet moments. Sure, there's a hiss if I turn the volume past 1 or 2 (with nothing playing), but it's so quiet and laid back compared to what I'm use to, that I hardly feel it's worth mentioning.
   
  I feel the need to put a disclaimer on my post, cause I don't have any other DAC or amp to compare the NFB-12's performance to. So some of my enthusiasm may be exaggerated, I don't know. But in any case, even without burn-in, I'm a very happy customer.


----------



## IPodPJ

Thanks for the impressions, Jupe.  Nothing wrong with being excited from a new purchase! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Make sure you let all Audio-gd gear warm up for a good 2 hours to get the best sound quality from it; even better if you have music playing through it during that time.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





boynamedsue said:


> Got mine today as well, and I cannot stop listening to it! It is giving new life to songs I've listened to so many times before. I totally agree with Elanzer take that everything sounds "fuller." I have it hooked up USB to my PC with foobar, and have no problems. I think the HD650s sound amazing with it - I'm getting no veil whatsoever and actually think it has made the HD650s much more fun to listen to.
> 
> I'm a bit confused with the whole variable versus fixed mode. I want to use my amplified speakers (m-audio bx5a) with the DAC out - what would be the recommended setting if I want to use the NFB-12 to control volume? Do I need to change any jumpers??


 


  I'm glad it sounds good paired with the HD650. Whoever says the HD650 does not benefit from added warmth is wrong imo. All a matter of preference of course, but to me the HD650 is more engaging when I have the warmer and tube like Moon hdam installed in my Audio-GD Fun. With the Earth hdam there is amazing resolution but can be a bit too analytical at times and poor recordings are rendered without flattery. I wonder what the dual WM8741 sounds like without an opamp in it's output stage.
   
  I find it astounding people are considering other combos in this tier when the NFB12 is available at this price.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Whoever says the HD650 does not benefit from added warmth is wrong imo. All a matter of preference of course, but to me the HD650 is more engaging when I have the warmer and tube like Moon hdam installed in my Audio-GD Fun.


 

 What do you mean "is wrong" ?  Like you then said, it's a matter of preference so no one is wrong.  For the record, most people disagree with your sentiments -- the HD650 is plenty warm and needs to be brought closer to the neutral side, like the HD600, which is a far better headphone imo.


----------



## j2kei

After having used the NFB-12 for a week, I'm finding that the bass/sound isn't tight at all and the sound is extremely warm. This is severely disappointing as the HDP completes destroys the NFB-12 in this aspect, and I feel my HD600 sounds more like a HD650. Aside from that side, the NFB-12 seems like it has a more front-row seat sound while the HDP has a back-row seat sound. What that means is that the sound surrounds you in the NFB-12 while the sound is more in front of you with the HDP. As of right now, I'm still burning in the NFB-12 in hope of the bass/sound tightening up. If it does not tighten up, I do not know what to do. Im running it with a HD600 w/ Nucleotide cable, optical cable, and Audio-GD power cable, and the bass on this thing right now is FLABBY!!! (Using different power cord doesnt help, my headphones are fine, etc.) Listening to Yolanda Be Cool & Drop - We No Speak Americano, the bass exists but it is running all over the place  Listening to Michael Buble - Spiderman Theme, the bass around 0:35 is not precise at all. Again the bass is there but it sounds like the string is loose and constantly vibrating, making me feel like i cannot locate the instrument. Sadly, I feel the cheap $100 VivdAudioTech AMP & DAC and HDP produce a more comfortable and tighter musical sound, but my hopes for the NFB-12 are not yet over. I will continue using it for a couple weeks in hope of a tighter sound (I do believe in burn-in as well as power cord changing sound ) and report back if the bass does tighten up. Sorry if this post ruins some peoples' expectations of the NFB-12. I am merely stating my observations, so please dont flame me just because the truth hurts about this amp/dac. I had good expectations out of NFB-12 as well as it seems incredible for the price on paper, but as of now, time will tell (as in more burn-in time ).


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





ipodpj said:


> What do you mean "is wrong" ?  Like you then said, it's a matter of preference so no one is wrong.  For the record, most people disagree with your sentiments -- the HD650 is plenty warm and needs to be brought closer to the neutral side, like the HD600, which is a far better headphone imo.


 
   
  Sigh. My intention was to present a contrary view. I used to assume no benefit in adding more warmth to the HD650, until I experienced it myself first hand with the colouration introduced by the Moon hdam. I did not state my belief as an absolute, hence the" imo" followed by the preference disclaimer. No need to get your panties in a twist princess.
   
  And thanks for putting it on official record how many people disagree with me. Out of curiosity do you have a number so I can get a sense of how "wrong" my opinion is?


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





tlniec said:


> Sure enough.  That is strange - unconventional.  Someone in a later post suggested the intent might be to prevent someone from removing the screw from this side.  That makes sense, I suppose.


 


  Confirm I could remove the screw from the underside, The soldering does ads the removal of the screw from the bottom


----------



## BuFFys

I would recommend that you try another mix or song then "Yolanda Be Cool & Drop - We No Speak Americano" as the Orginal and "Dutch Radio Version" should have a muddy bass in then.
  I just listen to all the mixes on the maxi singel i have and only tese two has muddy bas sin them. especiallyif you list to the "Vhyce Remix". o also switch to Edward Maya feat. Vika Jigulina - Stereo Love (Michael Mind Project Remix Edit) and my favorit bass song Studio B - I See Girls and didn´t hear the sam muddy bass. 
   
  I used my Ultrasone that are quit bass heavy on low gain. Will try to confirm this with my speaker at home. I think the NFB-12 brings out more low frequency sounds in te song and so the bass sound muddy. but this is just my opinion.
   
   
   



j2kei said:


> After having used the NFB-12 for a week, I'm finding that the bass/sound isn't tight at all and the sound is extremely warm. This is severely disappointing as the HDP completes destroys the NFB-12 in this aspect, and I feel my HD600 sounds more like a HD650. Aside from that side, the NFB-12 seems like it has a more front-row seat sound while the HDP has a back-row seat sound. What that means is that the sound surrounds you in the NFB-12 while the sound is more in front of you with the HDP. As of right now, I'm still burning in the NFB-12 in hope of the bass/sound tightening up. If it does not tighten up, I do not know what to do. Im running it with a HD600 w/ Nucleotide cable, optical cable, and Audio-GD power cable, and the bass on this thing right now is FLABBY!!! (Using different power cord doesnt help, my headphones are fine, etc.) Listening to Yolanda Be Cool & Drop - We No Speak Americano, the bass exists but it is running all over the place  Listening to Michael Buble - Spiderman Theme, the bass around 0:35 is not precise at all. Again the bass is there but it sounds like the string is loose and constantly vibrating, making me feel like i cannot locate the instrument. Sadly, I feel the cheap $100 VivdAudioTech AMP & DAC and HDP produce a more comfortable and tighter musical sound, but my hopes for the NFB-12 are not yet over. I will continue using it for a couple weeks in hope of a tighter sound (I do believe in burn-in as well as power cord changing sound ) and report back if the bass does tighten up. Sorry if this post ruins some peoples' expectations of the NFB-12. I am merely stating my observations, so please dont flame me just because the truth hurts about this amp/dac. I had good expectations out of NFB-12 as well as it seems incredible for the price on paper, but as of now, time will tell (as in more burn-in time ).


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





j2kei said:


> After having used the NFB-12 for a week, I'm finding that the bass/sound isn't tight at all and the sound is extremely warm. This is severely disappointing as the HDP completes destroys the NFB-12 in this aspect, and I feel my HD600 sounds more like a HD650. Aside from that side, the NFB-12 seems like it has a more front-row seat sound while the HDP has a back-row seat sound. What that means is that the sound surrounds you in the NFB-12 while the sound is more in front of you with the HDP. As of right now, I'm still burning in the NFB-12 in hope of the bass/sound tightening up. If it does not tighten up, I do not know what to do. Im running it with a HD600 w/ Nucleotide cable, optical cable, and Audio-GD power cable, and the bass on this thing right now is FLABBY!!! (Using different power cord doesnt help, my headphones are fine, etc.) Listening to Yolanda Be Cool & Drop - We No Speak Americano, the bass exists but it is running all over the place  Listening to Michael Buble - Spiderman Theme, the bass around 0:35 is not precise at all. Again the bass is there but it sounds like the string is loose and constantly vibrating, making me feel like i cannot locate the instrument. Sadly, I feel the cheap $100 VivdAudioTech AMP & DAC and HDP produce a more comfortable and tighter musical sound, but my hopes for the NFB-12 are not yet over. I will continue using it for a couple weeks in hope of a tighter sound (I do believe in burn-in as well as power cord changing sound ) and report back if the bass does tighten up. Sorry if this post ruins some peoples' expectations of the NFB-12. I am merely stating my observations, so please dont flame me just because the truth hurts about this amp/dac. I had good expectations out of NFB-12 as well as it seems incredible for the price on paper, but as of now, time will tell (as in more burn-in time ).


 

 Very interesting and with that said, maybe I should've gone for the nfb-11? Hmm..


----------



## Slaughter

Regarding the bass, it is definitely loose when new. Mine did tighten up, but the general signature is still there. Now I went back and forth between my tube hybrid amp and this one for several hours. The bass doesn't sound that different than my tube amp in signature, but it has more quantity of the same sound. It's almost like a bass boost is on. Just when I think it's boomy, I hear some songs with real tight low bass. I think this amp might be revealing the good or bad bass on a track and then boosting it a bit. This is the same from the DAC out.
   
  I feel that it would probably be a better match for cans with weaker bass, especially those with no mid-bass hump. This is definitely not the amp/DAC for the HD580/600 IMO. I really think the Beyer 880 or Grados would benefit from this amp, maybe the 701 as well. The M50 is a good match IMO, mostly because it brings out the mids and smooths the highs a bit. The NFB-12 soundstage is pretty impressive. As J2kei said, it surrounds you.


----------



## vinay

n00b here.   When is High Gain and Low gain used? is related to ohms of the Headphone ?


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





vinay said:


> n00b here.   When is High Gain and Low gain used? is related to ohms of the Headphone ?


 

  
  Pretty much, yeah. High impedance phones require more power to be driven properly (not sure if it's the voltage or the current specifically), so using High gain will usually sound louder. There might be a few other audible differences between the two settings (I'm not sure why), but its purpose is to accommodate both high- and low-impedance phones.
   

  
  Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I really think the Beyer 880 or Grados would benefit from this amp, maybe the 701 as well. The M50 is a good match IMO, mostly because it brings out the mids and smooths the highs a bit. The NFB-12 soundstage is pretty impressive. As J2kei said, it surrounds you.


 

 Do you think the 990's be a good match as well? I've listened to the 880's and loved the sound signature, but I never got to audition the 990's and don't know how big the difference between them really is. Since everyone keeps calling them bright, though, I have to wonder if the NFB-12 would do them a good justice.


----------



## acenes

I believe the only refrence to what kind of music anybody listens too while giving their impressions of this dac/amp was buffy , I just wonder like buffy what the heck are you listening too that has brought you to such a lowley / excitable state of mind.


----------



## Slaughter

Not sure. I haven't owned the 990 in a long time, but the increased bass of the NFB-12 might be too much for the 990. Might depend on the impedance version you get though. Hard telling what has synergy with the NFB-12. I just found that the KSC-75 sounds amazing with the NFB-12. I can't stop listening to this combo with folk, blues and acoustic music. It really makes me question the diminishing returns of this hobby....
  
  Quote: 





jupe said:


> slaughter said:
> 
> 
> > I really think the Beyer 880 or Grados would benefit from this amp, maybe the 701 as well. The M50 is a good match IMO, mostly because it brings out the mids and smooths the highs a bit. The NFB-12 soundstage is pretty impressive. As J2kei said, it surrounds you.
> ...


----------



## acenes

Hey Slaughter listen to Paul Simon's "You can call me Al" from Graceland album with your HD580's , it is one of the songs that I found new sounding with my HD600s'


----------



## acenes

I've disabled my onboard soundcard and use the USB connection to NFB12 with asio4all in foobar with no DSP's and I have no hiss at 100 percent volume , no noise whatsoever , kind of spooky really knowing what a burst at this level could do damage to my ears. I've let the NFB12 and my new drivers for my HD600's burn in for five days together with MP3's , Flacs , and with a 24/96 rip.  Checking in every once in awhile to make sure it was all at a listneing level.  Headphones so far do not sound better than my home theater system , headphones do not reverbetate my chest and physicaly beat my breath away.
   
  Anyhow , the music I've been breaking the NFB12 and HD600's with , and sounds very good with:
   
  Diana Krall , John Mayer , Massive Attack , Def Leppard (Flac) , Radiohead (24/96) , Ray Charles , Foreigner , Paul Simon , Nat King Cole , Joan Osborne , Kate Bush ,


----------



## Sparky14

Yup, the 990s (600ohm) work well with my NFB-11. Sure, the 990 is bright compared to the HD650 (what isn't?). But it isn't a piercing kind of bright. The NFB-12 is supposed to be a notch softer than the NFB-11, so I suspect the 990s would match well with the 12.


----------



## Jupe

A day later and I still love the NFB12. The bass is already tightening up a bit, with only a few hours of burn-in.. I shouldn't say much since it's still practically a baby to me, but I'm liking what I'm hearing.
   
  To my own surprise, I actually fell asleep while going through my Deadmau5 mix this afternoon. I'm not even sure how I managed it, because normally I'm a side-sleeper, but I was wearing my M50's. FWIW, it was a very deep sleep, on high gain, and left me disoriented but refreshed!


----------



## supercurio

Hi there 

I was pretty happy to receive my NFB-12 this morning, seeing they managed to build it before China's holidays.

But now I'm disappointed after listening to it, and eventually running measurements. I tested with Senn HD650 / RE0 / PL50

I found the sound dead, boomy (with HD650), lack of extend in highs. Boring voices & instrumentals.
HD650 listening expose flaws not detectable with the other equipment listed.

Qualities I found is a satisfying low hiss level with low levels gain when using isolating in-ears, a good extend in bass frequencies, lots of power.

"High" gain mode provides a much better SNR than "Low" (almost 10dB difference) : I recommend this one
"Low" gain lowers only the signal (not the noise), which means it's pretty useless.
It fails the udial test (kind of resampling artifacts) on both USB and SPDIF at 44100Hz. Workaround is to resample to 88200 or 96000 by software.

Unfortunately all I could hear was confirmed by RMAA tests (Xonar Essence ST)

*Best Results I could get for 44100 sources: 24bit - 16bit comparison*
http://dl.project-voodoo.org/RMAA/reports/nfb-12/44100-16b-24b.htm
The same roll-off appear with higher sampling rates measurements.

*Line-out - HD 650 Load comparison*
http://dl.project-voodoo.org/RMAA/reports/nfb-12/line-loadhd650.htm

*Finally, compared to my phone: Galaxy S Wolfson WM8994 headphone amp. Outch!*
http://dl.project-voodoo.org/RMAA/reports/nfb-12-galaxys-voodoosound-load-hd650.htm

I know I'm extremely exigent in terms of sound quality, but am I the only one to find this amp don't sound good especially with the parts it includes?
It's far from terrible, but I expected a lot better.


PS: selling!


----------



## Mysteek

To those who don't like their product and don't know what to do--these are so high in demand that you could probably sell at cost and lose nothing =P   If I were to order one now, it wouldn't be shipped until after March.


----------



## Poetik

Based on all the reviews it sounds like I wont really like it =(
   
  I guess the real test will come when I receive it hopefully later on this week.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Hi there
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You sound like every other new owner to AGD equipment (including myself) that thought their gear sounded this way the first couple of days. Some research would tell you that with use, the sounds opens up considerably and perceptions change. Sell it, I don't really care but I suggest giving it 2 weeks of use and decide then.


----------



## j2kei

I sure hope the sound opens up. I had the NFB-12 for a week. How do you guys burn-in? Just leave it on or run music through it? I left it just on for a week and it sounds the same (nothing better, nothing worse). I'm going to try leaving it running with music while I'm away this week. btw supercurio, those results done by your testing is plain WOW. the amount of noise is really disappointing. Could you please explain a little more why you prefer the high gain to the low gain? I did notice that the high gain is slightly cleaner, however 12dB gain for high gain is pretty high for even 300ohm headphone. I never bring it higher than 9oclock because it is just way too loud.
  
  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Hi there
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   


  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## holland

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Hi there
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That really blows.  It your first link, is that with or without the HD650.  It looks like it is without, but I want to confirm.  The HF rolloff is unacceptable.  -4.2dB @ 20KHz, starting at 2KHz.  Hopefully it's not a design issue, and someone just stuffed the board incorrectly (not likely, but hopeful).
   
  Someone should ask AGD about this.
   
  Also, if someone can reverse engineer the DAC configuration, that would be great.  What filter modes are the WM8741s put into?  Is de-emphasis enabled or disabled?


----------



## Cankin

This is from Audio GD site:
   
  [size=x-small]The ACSS is a non-feedback technology made with fully discrete amplifiers. Most people know the global feedback design can offer better specs in test measurements, and non-feedback can't do well in test measurements but can offer better sound for the human's ears. Here is a conflict of the classic circuits. But the ACSS opens a new field, it can offer a least coloration sound which is more neutral with very low distortion and high linearity. So it can retain the dynamics, detail and neutral sound but not sound bright or harsh.[/size]
   
   
  Does anyone have measurements of other non-feedback DAC/amp?
  I'm actually looking for a warm sounding amp and from impressions here, I think I'll like NFB-12


----------



## Elanzer

I wouldn't worry about measurements too much. The somewhat warmer sound of the DAC already shows it's not entirely neutral, and the few people complaining about some muddy bass and general lack of sharpness are HD650 owners with already warm, laid back headphones.
   
  My Xonar DX measures much favorable in comparison to the NFB-12 in RMAA, but RMAA doesn't seem to notice the interference that the DX gets from my video card (meaning screen panning in a movie gives a nice screech), and in general the sound is very hollowed and thin in comparison, even when using the same LD MK III amp. Doing an A/B with the DX and NFB-12, I don't think anyone could ever say that the DX is better for any music that makes good use of all lows, mids, highs, and positioning. It's a night and day difference.
   
  The fact that the STX measures extremely well - better than any external DAC I've seen on RMAA including some $1K DACs, but tends to sound lackluster in comparison to any good DAC equal or higher value has to say something about the validation of the results in real world.


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





holland said:


> That really blows.  It your first link, is that with or without the HD650.  It looks like it is without, but I want to confirm.  The HF rolloff is unacceptable.  -4.2dB @ 20KHz, starting at 2KHz.  Hopefully it's not a design issue, and someone just stuffed the board incorrectly (not likely, but hopeful).
> 
> Someone should ask AGD about this.
> 
> Also, if someone can reverse engineer the DAC configuration, that would be great.  What filter modes are the WM8741s put into?  Is de-emphasis enabled or disabled?


 

 On the Wolfson Pin 26 is at 0 volts which mean Normal operation (de-emphasis is not on)
  I refer to this as just reading off the hardware, nothing close to reverse engineering.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Cankin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Does anyone have measurements of other non-feedback DAC/amp?
> I'm actually looking for a warm sounding amp and from impressions here, I think I'll like NFB-12


 

 I've not seen any measurements on DACs, but then again I haven't looked.  Amps, sure.  There's plenty.  I'll give you a quick hint though, you don't get -4.2dB @ 20KHz.
   
http://www.amb.org/audio/ck2

   
  click on specifications and then scroll down for the link to the measurements.  The CK2III has no global negative feedback and is pretty much flat throughout the audio band (20Hz-20KHz).  Pete Millet has some tube designs that you can go through for measurements.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> I wouldn't worry about measurements too much.


 

 Eh...no.  You need to pay attention to the frequency sweep.  The other parts can be a number of things, but not the sweep.  There is a major flaw somewhere to fall off 4.5dB at 20KHz.  It could, however, just be a filter was enabled on the DAC.  It needs to be analyzed.  No DAC/amp should have a falloff like that in the high frequencies.  The DAC itself is capable to being fully flat through the audio band.  Many WM8741 DACs measure well.  Audio-GD uses a diamond buffer for the output buffer, and that has measured very well in many many designs, so that points to something awry in the DAC configuration or the discrete filter.
   
   
  Just "using your ears", well, that's just


----------



## holland

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> On the Wolfson Pin 26 is at 0 volts which mean Normal operation (de-emphasis is not on)  I refer to this as just reading off the hardware, nothing close to reverse engineering.


 

 OK, thanks.  What about pin 4 (HW filter mode) and pin 22 (oversampling)?  I doubt the DAC is configured for software mode.


----------



## Elanzer

Audio-gd's other DACs have similar rolloffs in measurement, see this thread:
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435290/rmaa-test-results-for-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-and-reference-1
   
  It's likely a digital filter.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> You sound like every other new owner to AGD equipment (including myself) that thought their gear sounded this way the first couple of days. Some research would tell you that with use, the sounds opens up considerably and perceptions change. Sell it, I don't really care but I suggest giving it 2 weeks of use and decide then.


 

 Sure, maybe it will open up a little bit. But I guess it won't be enough for me.
 Also, roll-off won't disappear, neither the resampling artifacts I could hear in udial.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





holland said:


> That really blows.  It your first link, is that with or without the HD650.  It looks like it is without, but I want to confirm.  The HF rolloff is unacceptable.  -4.2dB @ 20KHz, starting at 2KHz.  Hopefully it's not a design issue, and someone just stuffed the board incorrectly (not likely, but hopeful).
> 
> Someone should ask AGD about this.
> 
> Also, if someone can reverse engineer the DAC configuration, that would be great.  What filter modes are the WM8741s put into?  Is de-emphasis enabled or disabled?


 

 I'm used to coding Wolfson DAC by software (Linux drivers). How do you do that by hardware?


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> I wouldn't worry about measurements too much. The somewhat warmer sound of the DAC already shows it's not entirely neutral, and the few people complaining about some muddy bass and general lack of sharpness are HD650 owners with already warm, laid back headphones.
> 
> My Xonar DX measures much favorable in comparison to the NFB-12 in RMAA, but RMAA doesn't seem to notice the interference that the DX gets from my video card (meaning screen panning in a movie gives a nice screech), and in general the sound is very hollowed and thin in comparison, even when using the same LD MK III amp. Doing an A/B with the DX and NFB-12, I don't think anyone could ever say that the DX is better for any music that makes good use of all lows, mids, highs, and positioning. It's a night and day difference.
> 
> The fact that the STX measures extremely well - better than any external DAC I've seen on RMAA including some $1K DACs, but tends to sound lackluster in comparison to any good DAC equal or higher value has to say something about the validation of the results in real world.


 

 Sure. Most measurements are done on the line-out level, which is sometimes of irrelevant of the real performance when you attach headphones.
  This is why I published a measurement with headphones, and a comparison with another source with headphones.
   
  However, if some equipment sound great with poor "benchmark" results (it's all it is, a benchmark), so far it's not the case for the NFB-12 to my taste.
 PS: I don't like too much Xonar Essence ST headphone ouptut either, even if I prefer it to the NFB-12.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Audio-gd's other DACs have similar rolloffs in measurement, see this thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435290/rmaa-test-results-for-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-and-reference-1
> 
> It's likely a digital filter.


 


  Thanks, good info.


  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> I'm used to coding Wolfson DAC by software (Linux drivers). How do you do that by hardware


 


  There are a number of pins that can be set to certain values (high 3.3V/low 0V /mid point 1.7V) to control the HW features.  I believe it is pin 24 that puts the chip into hardware or software mode.  For a standalone device to be in software mode, it requires a fair amount more circuitry than what is in NFB-12, including a processor.  The amount of tweaking is limited, but you can set oversampling modes and choose between 3 digital filters and de-emphasis.


----------



## Slaughter

There are more overly bright headphones than neutral, so the high end roll-off would come down to synergy and preference. Listening to Martin Scorsese Presents the Blues - Keb' Mo' with the KSC75 right now...simply amazing.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Ah nice, didn't knew.
   
  There is a free datasheet accessible from here: http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/dacs/WM8741/
   
  You know, those DAC are really customizable and you can setup your own PCM digital filters manually with a lot of parameters.
  Check out the datasheet at page 49. really interesting ^^

 It's maybe what audio-gd does.
 The roll-off occur at the same frequencies at 96kHz. I didn't complete the test at 192kHz because I had artifacts at this sample rate.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> There are more overly bright headphones than neutral, so the high end roll-off would come down to synergy and preference. Listening to Martin Scorsese Presents the Blues - Keb' Mo' with the KSC75 right now...simply amazing.


 


  Was I the only guy who thought "neutral" meant "flat" ?
  I would have bought it if I knew those very special sound changes before, especially since I was looking for a reference headphone amp.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Sure. Most measurements are done on the line-out level, which is sometimes of irrelevant of the real performance when you attach headphones.  This is why I published a measurement with headphones, and a comparison with another source with headphones.
> 
> However, if some equipment sound great with poor "benchmark" results (it's all it is, a benchmark), so far it's not the case for the NFB-12 to my taste.
> PS: I don't like too much Xonar Essence ST headphone ouptut either, even if I prefer it to the NFB-12.


 


  What is interesting is that your noise shape looks the same everywhere.  It's either a grounding issue or your audio/power cables are running next to something.  The stereo crosstalk is rather high.  Someone has some real crappy jacks.   Crosstalk is usually below -90dB.  The biggest culprit of crosstalk is the jack and poorly wired cables (using the shield for ground, for example).


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hehe right, for the headphone-attached test, I use a cheap jack (1meter) + a cheap jack splitter, it counts


----------



## supercurio

Anyway guys, as long as I have it, I can make some other measurements if you like, just ask.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Kingwa himself said that the NFB-12 is more forgiving and a bit warm in signature before the NFB-12 was even released.
   
  The NFB-11 would be the "reference version" with intent on a revealing signature while the NFB-12 is more of a general purpose/forgiving "fun version". It makes sense that the HD650 would synergize with the NFB-11 more than the NFB-12 when aiming for a middle road "reference quality".


----------



## mikop

I received mine today. Too bad I was on my way out on a business trip so it is just sitting in my trunk right now 
   
  Can't wait to hook it up when I get home.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Anyway guys, as long as I have it, I can make some other measurements if you like, just ask.


 


  Can you make a sweep at 96KHz and 192KHz sampling rates?  I think what you see is that the WM8741 is being configured for 192KHz operation (no oversampling) and one of the soft-knee filters.  It needs to be configured for 192KHz, since the coax side accepts 192KHz.
   
  I'd bet the roll-off reduces dramatically.


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Pin 4 is 0 volts, Pin 22 is 3.5V and Pin 24 (Hardware/software) is at 0 volts.
   
  So yes it is hardware mode.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





holland said:


> That really blows.  It your first link, is that with or without the HD650.  It looks like it is without, but I want to confirm.  The HF rolloff is unacceptable.  -4.2dB @ 20KHz, starting at 2KHz.  Hopefully it's not a design issue, and someone just stuffed the board incorrectly (not likely, but hopeful).
> 
> Someone should ask AGD about this.
> 
> Also, if someone can reverse engineer the DAC configuration, that would be great.  What filter modes are the WM8741s put into?  Is de-emphasis enabled or disabled?


 
   
  Most of what we hear as treble is in the 5k to 12k range. There's almost nothing to hear at 20k. MP3 compression usually filters out everything above 16k for example.
  
   


  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Audio-gd's other DACs have similar rolloffs in measurement, see this thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435290/rmaa-test-results-for-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-and-reference-1
> 
> It's likely a digital filter.


 

 Very likely, set to slow roll-off, same as in most high-end DACs.
   
  I would indeed ask Kingwa about the measurements, but remember that it's a $200 combined unit, not a $2000 one.  However, that stereo crosstalk measurement corresponds with my experiences of the low-end Audio-gd gear that with HD-600s one doesn't get a very wide soundstage. You need to go up a tier for that.


----------



## m00t

Going by this post here, it looks like the high frequency roll-off is deliberate. Kingwa was asked about a similar thing happening in the Audio-gd DAC-19MK3 and that post is his response.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> Pin 4 is 0 volts, Pin 22 is 3.5V and Pin 24 (Hardware/software) is at 0 volts.
> 
> So yes it is hardware mode.


 

  
  Great, thanks.  The input rate is set for 192KHz and using the default linear filter mode.  From what I understand, changing Pin4 to floating and remove the pull-down resistor would offer a better filter than the default linear filter.  This would sacrifice some phase linearity for better time domain.  The roll-off is the same, but it is to eliminate pre-ringing.  The roll-off is to eliminate post-ringing.
   
  I'm curious to see what the sweeps look like with an upsampled 192KHz sample rate, since oversampling is set for a 192KHz stream in the chip, so the chip is really expecting 192KHz data and the filters are set for high frequency data vs 44.1KHz.

Ayre whitepaper
   
  Too bad there are no switches or jumpers to play with the filters.
   
  Also note that if oversampling is disabled and the input stream to the DAC is 44.1KHz or 48KHz, the filters where the corner rate is normally around 30KHz moves to 15KHz.  This is *exactly* what the RMAA has shown.  By extension, if you provide an upsampled stream, the sound will change.


----------



## tranzy

Hi all,
  My current setup is an Audinst MX1 paired with a  DT770Pro/80ohm and a Sennheiser PX100-II.
  I've placed an order for the NFB12 too and from what I understand I should receive it later this month.
  The problem is that I want to upgrade the headphones also. From the reviews that I read and the budget that I have, I'm leaning towards the HD650 or the DT880/600ohm. 
  Which of those two is more suited for the NFB12? Because from the earliest posts from this thread, especially the ones from Supercurio, I understand that the HD650 are not good with this dac/amp and the DT880/600ohm will be more suited. But between my headphones, I like more the PX100-II sound's signature, which is somehow close to the HD650 from what I read.
  So... please help me to choose the right headphones. 
  Big Thanks!
   
  PS: @Supercurio. I'm a big fan of your voodoo kernel and audio modding. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Slaughter

Not sure if anyone can tell you which one to get. I can tell you that being a previous 880/600 owner, I would love to try the 880 with NFB-12. I think it will add some of that missing warmth in the mids and needed bass impact. Senns really sound best with tubes in my experience.


----------



## holland

I use all my Beyer headphones with a 120-ohm adapter.  It adds warmth and tones down the high frequency a bit.  I really think the headphones were designed around the 120-ohm output jack in accordance with IEC 61938.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  You're right, I'm running new tests at the moment.
 Stay tuned.


----------



## supercurio

Hi again!
   
  I ran new analysis with improved settings and setup (more adequate gains, only 1 computer to avoid noise sources, better cables)
   
  This time, benchmark results are better, but you'll see easily the artifacts I was talking about with the additionnal spectrograms at 44k.
  Roll-off is confirmed due to a digital filter applied.
   
  Spoiler alert: Upsampling is not optional.
   
   
*44k/24bit performance*
  http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-44k-24bit.htm
   
*96k/24bit performance*
  http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-96k-24bit.htm
   
*192k/24bit performance*
  http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-192k-24bit.htm
   
*Samplerates comparison*
  http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-samplerates.htm
   
*44k/24bit without or with upsampling*
  http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-44k-upsampling.htm
   
*udial at 44k, sampled at 96k :*

   
*udial upsampled at 96k, sampled at 96k:*

   
*RMAA test wave at 44k, sampled at 96k :*

   

*RMAA test wave upsampled at 96k, sampled at 96k:*

    
   
  PS: sox graphs are generated with: 

```
for x in *.wav ;do sox $x -n spectrogram -o $x.png -x 1600 -s -t "$x" -w Kaiser -z 120; done
```


----------



## llama_egg

*whoosh*
   
  I can honestly say that I have no idea what the heck those graphs are showing, but I'm sure I've been them on the screen during Star Trek though.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





llama_egg said:


> *whoosh*
> 
> I can honestly say that I have no idea what the heck those graphs are showing, but I'm sure I've been them on the screen during Star Trek though.


 


  Almost in the midlle of the each graph you see 22050Hz. Past this frequency, everything is noise/artifacts & sound defects because the source is a 44100Hz signal.
  
  And without upsampling, there's a lot of unwanted artifacts past 22050Hz.
  Despite the initiative of the manufacturer to filter and reduce highs to reduce the harshness, those "mirror images" kills the purpose with high frequencies that introduce distortion, listening fatigue..
   
  Even cheap HDA codecs integrated in computer mainboards don't exhibit this kind of problems those days.
  If you upsample before sending to the DAC, the performance is honorable. If you use a CD player outputing 44100Hz signal, the performance is just crap.
   
  Looks like someone didn't do its homework in audio testing, or my amp is misconfigured?


----------



## Slaughter

I assume these are results for the amp and not the DAC output? Also, did you run these test on both high and low gain as you should get different results?


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I assume these are results for the amp and not the DAC output? Also, did you run these test on both high and low gain as you should get different results?


 

 "DAC" and "Headphone" output look the same in measurements.
 Low gain is usless, it only attenuate the input signal (so, you only loose in terms of performance or benchmarks)


----------



## holland

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Even cheap HDA codecs integrated in computer mainboards don't exhibit this kind of problems those days.
> If you upsample before sending to the DAC, the performance is honorable. If you use a CD player outputing 44100Hz signal, the performance is just crap.
> 
> Looks like someone didn't do its homework in audio testing, or my amp is misconfigured?


 

 It's set up incorrectly.  It's an easy fix though, setting 1 pin properly, though I would change the filter to be the minimum phase filter instead of the linear.  I'd take phase distortion over edginess any day of the week, as per the Ayre whitepaper.  If you really want to have flexibility you need to add parts.  You'd need an ASRC, but I would run the DAC at 96KHz instead of 192KHz, because the WM8741 runs better at 96KHz instead of 192KHz.  In 192KHz it runs at 128Fs instead of 256Fs.  I might build an ASRC module when I get mine in March or just set it to 44.1KHz and the minimum phase filter.
   
  Nice job on running the tests.  The issue is that the DAC is told the input stream is 192KHz, and it simply is not.
   
  Email KingWa the data.  I'd wait a little longer for an ASRC implementation, or at least a 2 3-way switches in the back to select the HW filter mode and the HW sampling rate.


----------



## supercurio

Interesting!
 However, I don't understand why the DAC is not setup to use the SPDIF clock as source (or USB transmitter)
  Based on the input source clock, it's possible to generate a master clock that would be used for the DAC, set in DSP or I2S slave right ?


----------



## holland

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I assume these are results for the amp and not the DAC output? Also, did you run these test on both high and low gain as you should get different results?


 


  The DAC is setup to indicate the data stream is 192KHz, to configure the oversampling mode.  The data it is getting is not 192KHz, so it's algorithms are out of sync.  A full upsample to 192KHz would give the best audio quality, as the WM8741 may think of it.  This is well documented in the WM8741 spec sheet.  Personally, I would change the HW sample rate to 44.1KHz/48KHz and use the more aggressive minimum phase filter, but tastes vary.  However, setting the proper sample rate is not really optional.  The chip uses a number of algorithm changes based on it.
   
  There are a number of fixes, from cheap and quick, to complex and expensive.
   
  I guess this is a case of marketing for the upsampling/DI hype crowd, but forgetting that the chip has limitations.


----------



## supercurio

Stupid question: I forgot to run tests @48kHz. You think it would be interesting because it's a fs multiple?


----------



## holland

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Interesting!
> However, I don't understand why the DAC is not setup to use the SPDIF clock as source. Based on the input source clock, it's possible to generate a master clock that would be used for the DAC, set in DSP or I2S slave right ?


 


  I'm not really sure why it is selectable like that.  I guess it's really designed to have a microcontroller front end or be hardcoded a certain way depending on what it is used in.
   
  It's really selecting the oversample rate and not the clock.  I guess it is cost and complexity for the DAC to handle it itself.  You do want to be able to disable the oversampling in order to use it with an external DSP, if you so choose.  That much I agree with.  I'm not so sure about the other 2 modes, but it probably comes down to cost and figuring that anyone who actually uses upsampling will do it a specific way.  That's just a guess.  Only Wolfson would know the real answer.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Stupid question: I forgot to run tests @48kHz. You think it would be interesting because it's a fs multiple?


 


  No.  The oversampling selection is for 44.1KHz/48KHz, 88.2KHz/96KHz, or 192KHz.  3 modes.  What you did is fine.


----------



## supercurio

Quote:  





> That's just a guess.  Only Wolfson would know the real answer.


 
   
  Actually the guy who designed the WM8741 saw the first graphs and was disapointed of course 
  I was told the comparison with WM8994 smarphone audio hub was source of some inside jokes ^^


----------



## Slaughter

Uh, doesn't low gain use a diamond output vs ACSS on high? These are two different circuits within the unit. 






supercurio said:


> "DAC" and "Headphone" output look the same in measurements.
> Low gain is usless, it only attenuate the input signal (so, you only loose in terms of performance or benchmarks)


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Uh, doesn't low gain use a diamond output vs ACSS on high? These are two different circuits within the unit.


 
   
  Sorry I don't have the knowledge to answer this question.
 However, I can tell is that you can hear hiss when using sensitive in-ears with the low gain mode.
  Cause is that with lower knob gains the SNR is reduced, and if you lose again 10dB SNR using this switch the hiss becomes audible.


----------



## Slaughter

If you don't know, then saying the low gain only attenuates the signal might not be accurate. And according to the Audio-Gd website, low gain is 0dB and high is +12, so low is not attenuating anything as it is 0dB. Have you tried different loads? 300 ohms and 33 ohms should produce different results and might give people a better idea of which phones might pair better with the amp. Thanks for all your testing. It is very interesting,
  
  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Elanzer

This is interesting, I've been playing around with the SoX resampling plugin for FB2K. Wouldn't resampling say, 44.1khz music to 192khz directly cause more problems than just leaving it non-resampled 44.1khz, or resampled 88.2khz/176.4khz? Since it isn't a multiple, wouldn't there be mathematical rounding imperfections?


----------



## Kassem

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> If you don't know, then saying the low gain only attenuates the signal might not be accurate. And according to the Audio-Gd website, low gain is 0dB and high is +12, so low is not attenuating anything as it is 0dB. Have you tried different loads? 300 ohms and 33 ohms should produce different results *and might give people a better idea of which phones might pair better with the amp.* Thanks for all your testing. It is very interesting,


 
   
   
  Thats what I'm talking about...


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> If you don't know, then saying the low gain only attenuates the signal might not be accurate. And *according to the Audio-Gd website, low gain is 0dB and high is +12, so low is not attenuating anything as it is 0dB*. Have you tried different loads? 300 ohms and 33 ohms should produce different results and might give people a better idea of which phones might pair better with the amp. Thanks for all your testing. It is very interesting,
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
  I agree, it's what's written on the website, this is why I was surprised that both listening and measurement show the opposite.
   
_High:_ 0dB
_Low:_ -12dB on signal, no effect on noise/hiss

 If there was another difference in the signal than its level, I was unable to pick it.
  
  I tried with 300 Ohms (HD 650), 55 Ohms (PL50), 64 Ohms (RE0), and line-in.
   
  PS: sorry it seems every time I talkl about this product or answer questions I'm trashing it. That's not my goal.
  I'm just a demanding listener equiped by trained ears and some analysis tools ^^


----------



## holland

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Uh, doesn't low gain use a diamond output vs ACSS on high? These are two different circuits within the unit.


 


  It shouldn't be, but I'll trace the circuit when I get mine in March or so.  The high/low gain should be current amplification in ACSS....that is ACSS is a transconductance amplifier, using a voltage out DAC as the voltage controlled current amplifier.  gm = dI(output) / dV(input).  The gain switch should be changing the gm of the ACSS stage.  The diamond buffer is the output stage, the volume control is the output of the ACSS which helps to performs I/V conversion based on the potentiometer's position.  The converted voltage then feeds into the diamond buffer.
   
  At least, that's how the topology should work.  It would be insane to have low gain go through the diamond buffer and high gain go through something else, IMO.  That's unnecessary complexity.


----------



## treaves

So, has anyone actually e-mail KingWa and ask for additional information?  Or are we still just speculating?


----------



## Slaughter

I admit I am not knowledgable enough to know, but according to the website, it states that low impedance phones use the diamond output stage. So is it possible that it is sensing the load and rerouting the output? I believe that is how the new Schiit Lyr is going to operate. Or is the website just saying that the diamond output stage is always there, but especially to help low impedance phones which need more current?
  
  "For low impedance, we applied a diamond output stage which is quite less colored than most conventional circuits."
  
  Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## cdanguyen08

Chinese New Year just started today soo i doubt you'll get a response soon.
 Kung Hei Fat Choi!  Chúc Mừng Năm Mớ!


----------



## BuFFys

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I admit I am not knowledgable enough to know, but according to the website, it states that low impedance phones use the diamond output stage. So is it possible that it is sensing the load and rerouting the output? I believe that is how the new Schiit Lyr is going to operate. Or is the website just saying that the diamond output stage is always there, but especially to help low impedance phones which need more current?
> 
> "For low impedance, we applied a diamond output stage which is quite less colored than most conventional circuits."


 


   
Well when I look on the NFB-12 and Fun page, an I’m only get confused :
   
About Diamond output i find:
NFB-12: The output buffers are Non-feedback. For low impedance, we applied a diamond output stage which is quite less colored than most conventional circuits.
   
Fun: The FUN applied the diamond  output stage. It is a very neutral sound output stage just increase the power output without any coloration,
   
   
About gain and ACSS
NFB-12: As you can see, ACSS circuits have no gain, as it is a completely different circuit.
   
Fun: The FUN has special DAC output sockets, owners can connect to the DAC output sockets, but I advise owners to try to connect to the Preamp output sockets, turn the volume to proper position (at high gain, volume placed around 10:00 to 14:00) which is proper output level. Doing this benefits from the ACSS gain circuits , and can improve the sound quality.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I admit I am not knowledgable enough to know, but according to the website, it states that low impedance phones use the diamond output stage. So is it possible that it is sensing the load and rerouting the output? I believe that is how the new Schiit Lyr is going to operate. Or is the website just saying that the diamond output stage is always there, but especially to help low impedance phones which need more current?
> 
> "For low impedance, we applied a diamond output stage which is quite less colored than most conventional circuits."


 

 That's low impedance, not low gain.   I think they mean low output impedance, particularly with no global feedback.  The diamond buffer is a good circuit with low output impedance.  It's possible they bypassed the ACSS and have the DAC directly connect to the pot...but I never get that impression in their specs.
   
  Quote: 





cdanguyen08 said:


> Chinese New Year just started today soo i doubt you'll get a response soon.
> Kung Hei Fat Choi!  Chúc Mừng Năm Mớ!


 

 Happy New Year!


----------



## migman

I won't pretend to understand the technical but interesting conversation of the last few pages, so I will just give my impressions so far of the NFB-12.  I received mine yesterday and was able to spend about an hour listening to a CD I know well (the soundtrack to Jurassic Park).  The associated equipment I was listening on is as follows:
   
  Sony DVP-NS999ES CD/SACD/DVD player
  NFB-12
  Yamaha RX-V692 receiver circa 1997
  ATH-M50 headphones (via Yamaha headphone jack)
   
  The Yamaha is being fed analog outs from both the NFB-12 and the Sony.  This allows me to rapidly compare the DAC in the NFB-12 to the DAC in the Sony (which in my understanding is quite good).  Initially I just want to see if I can discern the difference between the Sony's DAC and the NFB-12 which is why I am connected to the Yamaha's headphone jack.  After matching the levels as close as possible I listened to some of my favorite tracks on the JP soundtrack multiple times.  Granted this was right out of the box and my listening time was short, but to me the NFB-12 and the Sony sound virtually identical.  The Sony might be a hair brighter with a little tighter bass, but it is very close.  I will be doing more listening tonight with some other pieces.  Also, I have a pair of Kenwood KH-K1000 headphones on the way which I hope should be more revealing than the M50s.  So far I am very happy with the NFB-12.


----------



## tim3320070

Can everyone wait a couple of weeks before commenting? The gear needs run-in and initial impressions only muddy the water.
  Stuck record here.


----------



## Poetik

I Just got mine today and I like it so far.  I'd say from the initial "non burn in" the sound stage isn't quite as expansive as my HDP (width wise) but I can hear the details in the music quite a bit better with the NFB-12 (better instrument separation and placement).  Also so far the NFB-12's bass isn't as tight as the HDP either.  I'm sure my impressions will change after it burns in for a few weeks but we'll see. 
   
  So far I feel the HDP > NFB-12 for the fact that it immerses me in the music a bit more with it's sound stage and tighter bass.  If the NFB-12's bass tightens and it's sound stage opens a little bit more  then it'll be enough to sway me to sell the HDP.  I'll be sure to come back and update after I get a couple weeks of burn in on it. 
   
  Also I know there's a lot of technical talk going on and how some graphs don't show a "favorable" result.  Honestly I didn't understand a single graph that was posted but it is an objective way way to look at it.  However when you want to test a piece of gear that's made for your ear then you should place more importance on actually listening to it.  For anyone that's thinking of getting the NFB-12 it's a great deal for the price so please don't be afraid to try it because of some miscellaneous graphs.


----------



## Kassem

After everyone gets nice and burned in I'd personally like to know how this thing sounds with DT880 and various Grado products.


----------



## Slaughter

No
  
  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Can everyone wait a couple of weeks before commenting? The gear needs run-in and initial impressions only muddy the water.
> Stuck record here.


----------



## madwolf

Quote:



holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I did some more measurement Pin 22 is directly connected to Pin 8 the Digital Plus supply, 0 Ohm between the 2 pins. 
  Pin4 the filter select pin is directly connect to Pin 7. 0 Ohm There is no pull down resistor. 
  So the only way to mod this is to lift the pin from the board. And that is exactly what I did for Pin 22 on both Wolfson 8741

   
  By lifting Pin 22 (The voltage is now 1.7V) The oversampling is now at 96Khz. 
  I could connect this pin to ground, float or Digital Vcc to select the different frequency. 
   

  
  Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  A 3 way switch would be nice, But I think some jumpers could be easier here. It not very often then you change the source sampling frequency. 
  My unit comes with 5 jumpers (someone else reported 10) maybe I am fated to use jumpers to fix this issue. (pun intended)
   
  The cheapest and easiest solution would be to float pin 22 as shown above. With this solution the ability to run at 192 is gone. but so far I do not have anything recorded at 192Khz so it not a big loss. 
   
  ASRC may not be needed if there is a pin indicating what the source freq. But I could not find it on the 8805. It seem to be inside a register.....
   
  From supercurio graph if the source is half the freq of the sampling freq it is still relatively flat to 20khz, so it might be an all in one solution. 
   
  Using 44khz as a source as a comparison after lifting pin 22 the spectrum did open up and the sound is not so dark anymore. (Maybe some placebo since I am expecting this)
  I only have a dual trace o-silly-scope at home. (measure the amplitude of 20Khz test waves at both setting ? ) Suggest please.
   
   
  I need to borrow some equipment to test this out. 
   
   
  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Even cheap HDA codecs integrated in computer mainboards don't exhibit this kind of problems those days.
> If you upsample before sending to the DAC, the performance is honorable. If you use a CD player outputing 44100Hz signal, the performance is just crap.
> 
> Looks like someone didn't do its homework in audio testing, or my amp is misconfigured?


 

 Maybe they only test with 192khz source, but thanks for the graph very helpful. I am an Android developer as well.  
   
  I hope KingWa do not faint when he see this. 
  Gong Xi Fa Cai


----------



## Wen-Li

Reading trough this Thread, and especially Slaughters and Elanzers Posts I have now decided to get a Beyerdynamics headphone.
  The T1 is a tiny little bit out of my league tough  So I settle for the DT880.
   
  Now there are mutipple version of this yet again! D:
  Oh well there seem to be enough threads about it...
   
  Also the technical comments are very interesting altough I don't understand much. Thanks guys.


----------



## Slaughter

This amp has the volume for higher impedance phones like the 600 ohm Beyers, but I'm not sure it is best suited for them. This amp has crazy current, so the 32 or 250 ohm 880 might be a better fit for this amp. Might want to get some others thoughts on this though.
  
  Quote: 





wen-li said:


> Reading trough this Thread, and especially Slaughters and Elanzers Posts I have now decided to get a Beyerdynamics headphone.
> The T1 is a tiny little bit out of my league tough  So I settle for the DT880.
> 
> Now there are mutipple version of this yet again! D:
> ...


----------



## cdanguyen08

ive been offered a NFB 11 for 300. I intend to use this amp/dac for my HD 650 and k702. my question is that should i just take the NFB 11 or will the NFB 12 be fine enough.seeing how the price difference 60 dollars? and is the NFB 11 more suited for those headphones? had to sell my ibasso D2 for this new setup. only other amp/dac i have used


----------



## Poetik

Also I did try usb and toslink.  Toslink seemed to be a little clearer and had a wider sound stage.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





cdanguyen08 said:


> ive been offered a NFB 11 for 300. I intend to use this amp/dac for my HD 650 and k702. my question is that should i just take the NFB 11 or will the NFB 12 be fine enough.seeing how the price difference 60 dollars? and is the NFB 11 more suited for those headphones? had to sell my ibasso D2 for this new setup. only other amp/dac i have used


 


  I personally think the NFB-12 would be more suited for the K702, and NFB-11 more suited for the HD 650.


----------



## Slaughter

I could not detect any difference between USB and Coax.
  
  Quote: 





poetik said:


> Also I did try usb and toslink.  Toslink seemed to be a little clearer and had a wider sound stage.


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I could not detect any difference between USB and Coax.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 

 Different ears, different results.  Anyways it's been burning in so I'll have another go at it tonight.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

It would be helpful to get other impressions of how the NFB-12 couples with the HD650. I personally think there is great synergy between the two - the sound is full bodied, dynamic, and very musically engaging. Its done a nice job of brining out the fun personality out of the HD650s which apparently is a latent/hidden characteristic of these phones. FYI, I have the HD650s with new drivers which may explain why I'm not getting the veil with them. 
  
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> I personally think the NFB-12 would be more suited for the K702, and NFB-11 more suited for the HD 650.


----------



## Kingwa

Why the high had roll off?
 The standard DAC design must had the analog filter.
 For NOS DACs, they without digital filter, so they must design a much roll off analog filter, usually had -6 to -10DB at 20KHz, otherwise users maybe can hear the white noise " Sa..." at high .
 In oversample DACs, nowdays the digital filter already had quite high performance, can reduced the noise to -110DB or more. But the D/A parts is working after the digital filter, the D/A parts bring the new noise ( I can't remember the noise name in English but who had interesting can find the article in web), in particular the ΣΔ  D/A chips , the noise is worst than the R2R D/A chips.
 So for reduce the D/A noise, want to design a analog filter after the D/A.
 The analog filter can't as the characteristic of digital filter, it usually had -6DB/oct or -12,-24DB/oct. Nowdays  usually applied -12DB/oct.
 For the nice of frequency band, -12DB/oct can had less roll off at 20KHz but the phase characteristic is worst.
 We like applied -6DB/oct for best phase characteristic but not best specs.


----------



## Kingwa

Why not compare the high end DACs instead the low end soundcard?
 I find some low end digital/analog devices without analog filter. The Galaxy S definitely without analog filter from the diagram .
http://dl.project-voodoo.org/RMAA/reports/nfb-12-galaxys-voodoosound-load-hd650.htm
  But I never experience a high end DAC without analog filter.
 So a lot high end DACs are worst than the Galaxy S in frequency band.
  Members can find other high end DACs specs on web easier than me.
 Although the NFB12 is a low end price gear, but its design is flow the high end DACs conformation. But I am not say its sound is high end.
  There are some lot discusses at headfi before this discusses can read in the DAC19 and RE1 threads.
 Some people experience the ΣΔ  D/A is noisy than the R2R D/A , I think because the D/A noise worst than R2R. So a analog filter is necessary for standard design and must careful to design.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> No
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah, apparently


----------



## Kingwa

What cause the roll off at NFB12.
 The WM8741 setting is no fault at NFB12.
 This  setting is  for accept 192KHz input.
 The NFB12 can had better specs on page.The two caps in the red loops cause the roll off.
 The NFB11 is same with the NFB12 except the digital parts and TWO caps.
 In NFB11 we applied 100PF, but in NFB12 we applied 470PF.
  An electronical university man can easy design a excellent specs gear. But the sound maybe not excellent.
 We also can build a excellent specs gear, but we want more listen not only meter test.
 In NFB11 we plan to design its sound very revealing, so we choice 100PF caps for it.
 The NFB12 is finished design with NFB11 at same time, we want to design its sound a bit smooth , and forgive so we spend more days than NFB11 just for adjust parameter and listen, final choice the 470P.

 For people who want better specs, you just simply replace these two caps by 100PF (or lower).
 Sorry my poor English, I want to study English again, but I like listen musices and design PCB more than study English.


----------



## tim3320070

Isn't the HDP $450? Isn't the NFB12 $200? All/most comments are based on a handful of hours use? No wonder reviewers like Skylab are appreciated here, he lives with the gear for days/ weeks before rendering an opinion.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> What cause the roll off at NFB12.
> The WM8741 setting is no fault at NFB12.
> This  setting is  for accept 192KHz input.
> The NFB12 can had better specs on page.The two caps in the red loops cause the roll off.
> ...


 
  Kingwa- listen to english music, learn and enjoy at the same time.


----------



## olor1n

boynamedsue said:


> It would be helpful to get other impressions of how the NFB-12 couples with the HD650. I personally think there is great synergy between the two - the sound is full bodied, dynamic, and very musically engaging. Its done a nice job of brining out the fun personality out of the HD650s which apparently is a latent/hidden characteristic of these phones. FYI, I have the HD650s with new drivers which may explain why I'm not getting the veil with them.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...




I prefer the Moon hdam installed in my Audio-GD Fun as it adds warmth and body to the sound signature. It's not as resolving as the more analytical Earth hdam, but I feel Moon has wonderful synergy with the HD650. It's energetic and engaging. Fwiw, I also have an HD650 with the "new" version drivers, with no "veil" in the first place, other than the less refined sound when not running off a dedicated amp and good source.

It's worth noting that people commenting on the NFB-12's unsuitability for the HD650 don't even have that headphone in their inventory.


----------



## olor1n

+ 1 to giving your Audio-GD gear time to burn in. All past/present owners of Audio-GD gear will testify to the effect long burn in has on their components.


----------



## BoyNamedSue

Good to see you on the forum Tim =).
   
   
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Kingwa- listen to english music, learn and enjoy at the same time.


----------



## haloxt

I like reading people's early and burn-in impressions, so long as they don't do it crazy*carl style . If you don't know him Crazy*carl was a head-fier who (un)scientifically proved the sparrow and ipod sound identical .


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> What cause the roll off at NFB12.
> The WM8741 setting is no fault at NFB12.
> This  setting is  for accept 192KHz input.
> The NFB12 can had better specs on page.The two caps in the red loops cause the roll off.
> ...


 


  Thanks for the detail explaination. The DAC section is indeed design Correctly. With the oversampling filter set to 96 Khz I could hear background hiss at high volume.
  That mean that everything is converted to 192 before going to the DAC.
   
  Reverting the modification I have done.
   
  +2 for KingWa


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> I like reading people's early and burn-in impressions, so long as they don't do it crazy*carl style . If you don't know him Crazy*carl was a head-fier who (un)scientifically proved the sparrow and ipod sound identical .


 

 Lol. I remember reading crazycarl's posts when I had zero experience with amps and dacs. He did raise some doubts but boy was he wrong. I guess I should be thankful to him though, as he did inadvertently teach me to never take anyone's words as gospel around these parts. Try things for yourself and go from there.


----------



## madwolf

Question still remain. 
   
  1) If the roll off is indeed cause by the filter design after the DAC it should affect all the graph for 44khz, 96khz and 192khz 
   
  From the graph by suprecurio it only affect the 44khz and 96khz and not the 192khz. 
   
  So something is missing here.


----------



## Slaughter

Chill out Tim. I posted initial impression which are done on this forum every day and then I updated after a good amount of burn in. And remember, these come from the factory with 100 hours on them already, so we are not talking about brand new gear. It's funny on this forum because burn in is always longer than what someone has on it. If I say I have 300 hours, someone always comes along and says it needs 400. If I have 400, it needs 500. People like to know what something is going to sound like when they get it. It helps with any initial disappointment and buyers remorse. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Isn't the HDP $450? Isn't the NFB12 $200? All/most comments are based on a handful of hours use? No wonder reviewers like Skylab are appreciated here, he lives with the gear for days/ weeks before rendering an opinion.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Chill out Tim. I posted initial impression which are done on this forum every day and then I updated after a good amount of burn in. And remember, these come from the factory with 100 hours on them already, so we are not talking about brand new gear. It's funny on this forum because burn in is always longer than what someone has on it. If I say I have 300 hours, someone always comes along and says it needs 400. If I have 400, it needs 500. People like to know what something is going to sound like when they get it. It helps with any initial disappointment and buyers remorse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Views on burn in for Audio-GD gear are pretty consistent though. Have you owned any of their gear before or read any of the other threads for their other gear? Not being accusatory here, just curious.


----------



## Slaughter

Not sure why it matters. I am at ~250 hours and It still doesn't sound good with the 580. As good as it is, my DIY amp and 13 year DAC are still a level above, especially in dynamics and extension. I wish that wasn't the case, but it is. The NFB-12 is not going to become more dynamic and extended. The mids are thick and haven't changed. This works great for some phones and not others. It's just the way it is. I believe in burn-in, but it's not magic. I have only found burn in to smooth things and tighten them. Not change the sound signature.
   
  Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## cdanguyen08

Thanks for the advice guys!


----------



## Kassem

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> Sorry my poor English, I want to study English again, but I like listen musices and design PCB more than study English.


 
   
   
  Hahaha I love you, Edwin


----------



## mtntrance

slaughter said:


> No









olor1n said:


> A
> 
> 
> boynamedsue said:
> ...





 


Agree. Over a year ago I bought a HD650 and a audio-gd C-2 amp and DAC19 DSP1. I just listened to Paul Simon's Graceland from "You Can Call Me Al" to the end of the album for the first time on my rig. My rig is burnt in. Guess what? "You Can Call Me Al" was similar to what the previous writer described a few pages back-it was not bright and the bass was present and fairly tight but I was not wowed with the track at a low medium volume. I believe this is because the HD650s and the audio gd gear are neutral and revealing of the source recording. As I listened to other tracks I heard more treble where appropriate, a wide sound stage and great instrument separation and imagery-in other words other tracks wowed me like "diamonds". The DAC19 has the PMK1704 chip but I e-mailed Kingwa the other day to ask which chip is closest to the Wolfson (NFB-12) or the Sabre (NFB 11) was closest to the 1704 and the audio gd reference series DACs. Kingwa said the Wolfson. I now have on pre-order a NFB-1 WM and a NFB-12 both using the Wolfson. All of this is a long way of saying I think the HD650s sound great on audio-gd gear.

I love that Kingwa jumps on the thread during his holiday. Great customer service.

Slaughter hookem! I am a displaced horn and Austinite in S. Cal.


----------



## Kingwa

I ever wrote a article and post at a Chinese audio magazine in 2010.I can't fully interpret the article to English base my English ability.
 I think the 192KHz support not a real upgraded.
 The software (the recorders ), there is a real improved than 44KHz.
 But  the hardware, a lot newest D/A chips only support up to 96KHz or lower. The newest DA chips declare support up to 192KHz not real open a new field than the older PCM1704.
 The WM8741, the ES9018, at 192KHz input, they want to work on the "high rate" filter mode.(Had declare in their PDF files.)
 Read from the output waves of the WM8741 on oscillograph , I presumed the 192KHz input is working at 2X times oversample. At 96KHz is 4X (8X of some other chips ) oversampling.
 If the digital filter setting to 2X oversampling, the PCM1704 can working at 384KHz ( PCM1704 can support highest 768KHz input ).
 In theory  the 8X oversampling sound more detail and black backgroup than 4X and 2X modes , and I gree the throry with my experience.
 So 192KHz files sound maybe no benefit than 96KHz files after the DAC.
  But I gree the WM8741 is a excellent DA chips, its sound mellow and  analog taste, the soundstage is quite wide and deep than some other chips. So we design the WM8741 based DACs was follow its flavors.
  Sorry again for my English.
 PS: Edwin is not me, his English is much better.


----------



## Kassem

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> I ever wrote a article and post at a Chinese audio magazine in 2010.I can't fully interpret the article to English base my English ability.
> I think the 192KHz support not a real upgraded.
> The software (the recorders ), there is a real improved than 44KHz.
> But  the hardware, a lot newest D/A chips only support up to 96KHz or lower. The newest DA chips declare support up to 192KHz not real open a new field than the older PCM1704.
> ...


 
   
  haha well i love you both


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Isn't the HDP $450? Isn't the NFB12 $200? All/most comments are based on a handful of hours use? No wonder reviewers like Skylab are appreciated here, he lives with the gear for days/ weeks before rendering an opinion.


 

 I'm glad there are people on here like skylab too.  I'm also glad that there are people who will post quick impressions on a new piece of gear instead of not contribute and just complain about it.  It's not like there isn't time in the future to write a more thorough review.  Plus if you're so wound up about it (you obviously are since you keep making posts about it) then go buy a NFB-12, listen to it for a few weeks, and then post your impressions.  At least in the end that will be exponentially more constructive than just complaining.


----------



## Audiophil

Hi,
  first of all many thanks to supecurio with his measurements!
  I have to say, although I'm engineer in communication electronics, I'm not familiar with the layout of hi-fi DAC design.
  After some resaearch I found the audio-gd solutions quite attractive in function and build quality, maybe like some of you. My NFB-12 is ordered since end of decembre and in the pipeline...
   
  Looking at the frequency responses I became some headache!
  The usual approach of hifi (High Fidelity!) should imo mean to try to harm or violate a signal as less as possible. Also from "exotic" solutions I expect today, that the main technical data follow these rules. There are enough solutions showing that this is possible.
  I know of course, filter design is alway a compromise beetween response os frequency, phase, group delay and pulse response in time domain. NFB-12 seems to me not very well balanced therefore. It can be very helpful to compensate e.g an agressive sounding headphone. But don't forget, this works only in this combination well. And don't forget, NFB-12 has also RCA outlets, they sound the same.
  For sure each designer, constructor ore entrepeneur may create devices as he likes to do, but then the approach or philosophy should be clearly mentioned.
  The drop-off of the NFB-12 was confirmed to me in PN by kingwa and now in his posts above.
   
  For me that means they are providing a sound, or better different sounds (NFB-11...). But the NFB-12 is never ever "neutral" as mentioned. They specify 20Hz - 20KHz, but this absolutely useless without specfication of the limits, in this case -3.5 dB.
  This is a lot and for sure hearable. This will never be compensated by burn-in and there will be no need to think about tuning with cables, capacitors or transistors. These influences are are by far smaller than cutting high frquencies by such a filter.
  Additionally, if I got kingwa right regarding the analog filter, then the frequency response must be identically regardless the sample rate, but this is not the case.
   
  BR
   
  Michael


----------



## Juhazi

Modding NFB-12 to 96kHz rate?
   
  Hi King-wa and other DAC-engineers, how to mod NFB-12 to fixed 96kHz rate to make it 4X oversampling as King-wa said? I have read in an earlier post thet this is set by certain voltage on some leg of the WM chip.
   
  But, if I convert my output to 192kHz in the PC before sendig it to dac, does the WM chip make a new sampling anyway?
   
   I am 51 years old and I can't hear anything over 15kHz anyway, so I'm not concerned of analog filter slope! But the benefit of more X multiplied oversampling should be hearable to all of us. I cannot solder the board but I can find a friend to do that. How about produding a 96kHZ (audiophile) version?
   
  I have placed an order of NFB-12 from ampcity early in January 2011, and I'm waiting for delivery very anxiously. This is my first separate DAC and I'll hook it to my PC/Foobar-player and BD-player. I have a Vincent SV-129 2ch amp (to line-out) and a pair of AKG 601 and Sennheiser HD540 Reference (a classic from 1980's) and the legendary 414 to HP out
   
  Greetings from snowbound Finland!
  Juha


----------



## Kingwa

Just find a hiend gear diagram in web.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/simaudio-moon-evolution-andromeda-reference-cd-player-measurements


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> I ever wrote a article and post at a Chinese audio magazine in 2010.I can't fully interpret the article to English base my English ability.
> I think the 192KHz support not a real upgraded.
> The software (the recorders ), there is a real improved than 44KHz.
> But  the hardware, a lot newest D/A chips only support up to 96KHz or lower. The newest DA chips declare support up to 192KHz not real open a new field than the older PCM1704.
> ...


 
   
  For people who think that NFB12 sound bad, I believe you are feeding the NFB12 using a 44/48khz input. 
  I strongly urge you to feed the NFB12 with a 192khz source and hear the difference. 
  Using a 96k source is only slightly better as it is just half way there. 
  I know 192khz source is hard to find but try. 
   
  After reverting to Pin 22 to 3.5V. the sound become darker and veil, The tonal balance is off at the high end. After some listening I know that this cannot be right.
  Again I remove Pin 22 from the PCB and after I confirm with a few song the sound is great. At least the high end gives the correct tone.  
  AB test with another system to confirm. 
   
  The same amount of hissing is heard at both setting. 
   
  Taken from Page 40 of Wolfson 8741 datasheet

  We need to set the correct setting for this pin to the source sampling frequency if not the digital filter will be off. 
  The NFB12 current fix this pin at one fixed setting. 
   
  From supercurio graph the NFB12 is correctly configured if the input source is 192khz
  There a very slight error if the input source is 96khz
  But if the source is at 44khz the high frequency is rolled off prematurely.
   
  It cannot be the 470pf or 100pf as pointed out by KingWa. because if it is this it will affect all the graph at different source frequency.   
   
   
  高音的问题只有在用户使用44/48khz输入时才会出现。
  如果输入是192khz高音是没有问题的。 
  96khz输入时影响不大。 
   
  你说的那个470pf capacitor，看来影响不会那么大。有影响的话，影响44/96/192的程度也会是相同的。 
  可是我从supercurio的报告看到影响的程度是不一样的。
   
  Wolfson8741的说明书第40叶，写到不同的输入是要用不同的设置的。 可是我量到这是锁定在3.5V的。


----------



## Audiophil

Thanks madwolf,
  yes, the NFB-12 must sound better @192kHz, simply look at the f-response.
  and yes, this cannot  be caused by the analog 6dB-lowpass after D/A conversion.
   
  IMO, these filters are more important for the let me say 'sound-signature' of an DAC then the Converter itself.
   
  @kingwa: Meantime I head a look in some theory. Logically such a filter is really needed with delta sigma converters too. 'Normal'  approach seems to be a 2 step filter SC/RC and not simple 6- dB one stage low pass. The example you are mentioning is still better compared to NFB-12 with -1dB @ app. 16-17 kHz...
   
  BR
  Michael


----------



## madwolf

I think it is fine for each product to have it own sound signature 
  But the NFB12 sound differently with the same song with the input set to the different sampling frequency. 
   
  一个产品有自己的风格 是个好事。 
  可是如果用不同的输入带音，有不同的效果，是个很难理解的事。


----------



## Kingwa

I certainly can't write good English but I think I can read English not too bad, but thanks the Chinese explain.
   
  Seach and read the test diagram in this link
http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/
  A lot D/A gears (include the VERY hi-end brands) all have different frequency band at different sample rates.
   
  How easy to design and build a gear with 20-20KHz less than 0.5DB ? An electronical university man can do well.
   
  I just surprise there are some people still like to look at the specs on paper at first , then  decide how to listen the sound.


----------



## Audiophil

thanks kingwa,
   
  the link does not work for me..
  For sure many devices have different f-response depending on the sample rate. But more above 20 kHz and this means not in the range people can recognize huge differences.
   
  You know, people in europe are buying a lot from the net, but mostly inside their own country. Buying from China is for most including me a different story. I'm sure you are very supportive and helpful, but I simply ask for your understanding, that I want to get as much information as possible before the product is delivered.
  In EU for instance you may by law return each product to supplier wthin 14 days without any explanation and without any costs. Also here I'm sure you would agree on that too, but it would be more complicated and expensive than inside Europe anyhow.
   
  And, a graph or a number is - at least for me - much concreter information than words like 'neutral, dynamic, smooth , forgiving...'. Such is always a matter of taste.
  BR Michael


----------



## Kingwa

Quote: 





audiophil said:


> thanks kingwa,
> 
> the link does not work for me..
> For sure many devices have different f-response depending on the sample rate. But more above 20 kHz and this means not in the range people can recognize huge differences.
> ...


 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/simaudio-moon-evolution-andromeda-reference-cd-player-measurements
   
 Simaudio Moon Evolution Andromeda Reference CD player Measurements 

  blue trace is 96K
  Red trace is 44.1K


----------



## Slaughter

Madwolf, by your account, upsampling in foobar to 96 or 192 should decrease the rolloff and remove/reduce the veil, but this is not the case. I don't think there is a veil anyhow, but I used the Sox plugin for foobar and upsampled to 96 as that is the max of the USB input and the max of my coax output. I didn't do too much critical listening, but I didn't hear a difference. Probably because there is very little audible music where the roll off occurs. I will do some more testing this weekend, but I think the graphs and specs are being blown way out of proportion. The Audio-Gd website is very clear on the sound of the NFB-12 and I am not hearing anything different than the description. It seems people wanted the NFB-12 ot sound like the 11.


----------



## baylaef

Dear Kingwa
   
  How do you think about the following (red) point.
  I totally agree with Mr. Madwolf.
  
  Quote: 





madwolf said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Juhazi

Hi Guys and Kingwa,
   
  I think that most people will use NFB-12 by feeding it with the usual 16/44,1 signal from their laptops/boxes or a cd-player (like me). Upconversion is tricky even with Foobar plugins and one would need a digital oscilloscope to verify the output rate. The dac-freaks here are splitting hair-fibers now. For a gadget costing around 250€ delivered to your door in Europe is not supposed to be high-end. 
   
  I'm not an engineer but I do understand the urge to ger the most out of a chip's performance. If you can find a simple approach to overcome a weak point, that's fine!
   
  Alas, my thumbs up for guys like Kingwa and Head-Fi members for your contribution and conversation of the subject!
  Juha


----------



## BoyNamedSue

+1. I fall in the camp of not "splitting hair fibers," but I do admire the passion of those who working to squeeze out the last ounce of performance in their gear. It is quite educational to read about different ways to measure and improve upon fidelity.
  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Juhazi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I think that most people will use NFB-12 by feeding it with the usual 16/44,1 signal from their laptops/boxes or a cd-player (like me). Upconversion is tricky even with Foobar plugins and one would need a digital oscilloscope to verify the output rate. The dac-freaks here are splitting hair-fibers now. For a gadget costing around 250€ delivered to your door in Europe is not supposed to be high-end.
> 
> I'm not an engineer but I do understand the urge to ger the most out of a chip's performance. If you can find a simple approach to overcome a weak point, that's fine!


----------



## vrln

Has anyone tried feeding the NFB-12 an upsampled signal via an Audio-gd Digital Interface (it can do upsampling, and with the upgraded clock it should work even better than before)? I think that could be a really awesome combo.


----------



## LiqTenExp

got mine a few days ago but finally hooked it up.  Sounds good so far.


----------



## Kassem

Can anyone comment on the quality of the amp itself?


----------



## LiqTenExp

It sounded ok with my DT990s in the high gain state and had plenty of power for them.  I will try it out with my Ultrasone HFI-780 this weekend sometime.
   
  Using the DT990:
  In general I feel the NFB-12 highs are more pronounced than the LD MKIII I have.  The sound stage is a little more forward also on the NFB-12 as compared to my LD MKIII.  The LD MKIII has more output power into 600 ohm cans than the NFB-12 does.  Listening position for me was about 12 to 1 o'clock on the NFB-12 in high gain mode vs, 10 to 11 o'clock on the LD MKIII.  That being said both have the power to drive the DT990 to above safe listening levels at higher volume settings.
   
  This DAC/AMP can't be beat for the price.  It does run warmer than my LD DAC_I I have.  Nothing even close to anything I have that is tube related though.  This thing is definately a keeper for me.


----------



## Poetik

What does everyone put underneath their nfb-12 to keep it from moving all over their desk? I was thinking of buying some cheap rubber feet from lowes / home depot or putting one of those non-stip kitchen section mats underneath.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





poetik said:


> I was thinking of buying some cheap rubber feet from lowes / home depot or putting one of those non-stip kitchen section mats underneath.


 

 I thought about the non-slip kitchen mat as well, but worry about the heat the unit generates melting the mat onto my desk.
   
  I'm thinking that some sort of homemade rubber feet (superballs, maybe?) will suffice.


----------



## publicholiday

wonder how does the dac sound on the studio monitor which has flat & uncolored sound signature


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





poetik said:


> What does everyone put underneath their nfb-12 to keep it from moving all over their desk? I was thinking of buying some cheap rubber feet from lowes / home depot or putting one of those non-stip kitchen section mats underneath.


 


  Sticky tack. It's all I had around, and isn't seen anyway.
   
  Originally I thought the heat might do something funky, but it hasn't ever gotten hotter than "fairly warm" (on my own scale of hot-or-not). I don't think it's enough to melt anything, but then again I'm in a very cool place to start with.


----------



## prozach1576

Can someone explain to me the difference between the amplifier section on the NFB-12 and the older Audio-GD DAC/amp combos like the FUN and the Compass? I know that the FUN and the Compass use opamps and the NFB-12 doesn't, but I don't understand the significance. What are the advantages and disadvantages to using opamps?


----------



## Slaughter

here is what I use on all my DIY projects and on the NFB-12: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104070
  
  Quote: 





poetik said:


> What does everyone put underneath their nfb-12 to keep it from moving all over their desk? I was thinking of buying some cheap rubber feet from lowes / home depot or putting one of those non-stip kitchen section mats underneath.


 


  Probably really flat and uncolored.


  Quote: 





publicholiday said:


> wonder how does the dac sound on the studio monitor which has flat & uncolored sound signature


----------



## haloxt

You could put some silicone pad on the desk, and the nfb-12 on top of it. Or sticky tack or for less mess silicone putty.


----------



## holland

Hi Kingwa,
   
  The rolloff is not caused by the caps, but by the filter selected for 44.1KHz/48KHz data.  The filter selected by selecting the 192KHz oversampling setting sets -6dB @ 22.05KHz.  This is fine, but the filter is a slow roll-off, filter, which then sets the corner frequency to around 15KHz.  With 96KHz data, the -6dB point is at 48KHz instead of 22.05KHz.
   
  For 44.1/48KHz data, I would suggest the apodising filter, which is a sharper filter, but was set up to copy the Meridian CDP.  This is set by floating the filter pin and setting the OSR to 44.1KHz.  There are whitepapers on the Meridian apodising filter, presented at AES.  There is a slight roll-off on the top end, but it is not a very wide filter, like the slow roll-off chosen by default.  This is the filter I use on my DIY dual WM8741, FWIW.  I think it sounds good, for what it is.
   
  For 96KHz/192KHz, the filter chosen is theoretically better, this is the type of filter Ayre uses in their CDP.
   
  The problem really is that the standard 44.1KHz stream has the Nyquist frequency at 22.05KHz.  Since audio is 20-20, that doesn't give much room to implement a good roll-off filter.  Unfortunately, the chosen filter starts to roll off at 2KHz, which is audible.
  
  Quote: 





kingwa said:


> What cause the roll off at NFB12.
> The WM8741 setting is no fault at NFB12.
> This  setting is  for accept 192KHz input.
> The NFB12 can had better specs on page.The two caps in the red loops cause the roll off.
> ...


----------



## madwolf

Finally I get to mod the 8741 with Jumpers so that I could RMAA test this 
  The following 3 graph are obtain with me changing only the voltage of Pin 22 on both 8741 
   
  Input is from USB at 44khz 
   

   

  This RMAA test is done NFB12 to Creative X-fi, The noise, dynamic range, THD, IMD .... are at the limit of the X-fi 
  So should not see these numbers. 
   
  I did not change any capacitors. 
   
  This is a picture of my temporary mod. 

  I added jumpers to both Pin4 and Pin22, so that I could play around with the different filter and with the sampling frequency.


----------



## Audiophil

Hi Holland,
  very interesting. I am not sure wether we are talking about the same filter, you mean the filter before ADC, right? If I've got Kingwa right, he was talking about the lowpass after DAC. But anyway, you are imo on the right track. As mentioned few times the filter after DAC would influence each signal the same.
  But your approach would mean to redesign?
   
  Hi madwolf,
  also interesting, but I guess a bit, if your setup is correct. All results are worther than the other ones before: All graphs are not even touching 20 kHz down to the -4.5 dB, none of them


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





audiophil said:


> Hi madwolf,
> also interesting, but I guess a bit, if your setup is correct. All results are worther than the other ones before: All graphs are not even touching 20 kHz down to the -4.5 dB, none of them


 

 The x-fi on loop back would only go to 18Khz at best , So it is a limit with my test setup/test equipment.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





audiophil said:


> Hi Holland,
> very interesting. I am not sure wether we are talking about the same filter, you mean the filter before ADC, right? If I've got Kingwa right, he was talking about the lowpass after DAC. But anyway, you are imo on the right track. As mentioned few times the filter after DAC would influence each signal the same.
> But your approach would mean to redesign?


 

  Hi Audiophil, I am saying it is not the low pass filter Kingwa has implemented.  There are filters in the WM8741, which have been shown to be the limiter.  The filter chosen, with a 44.1KHz stream comes in before the filter implemented by Kingwa.
   
  The external analog filter is not an issue.


----------



## LiqTenExp

It so happens that the spec calls this out too as everyone probably already knows who has looked into it.
   
  Ideally I am going to look and see how the input switch is wired.  Ideally I am going to get it to ground pin 0 when i switch to usb and float pin 22 when its in any other mode.  I don't have a 192kHz source or source material so this will work for me.


----------



## LiqTenExp

update, the center contact on the switch is ground.  technically one could lift both pin 22s, then connect to them together and run a single 30awg wire over to the bottom contact on the input select switch.  this would give you the correct filter for 44.1 usb and 96k for opt/coax.
   
  i may have some ceramic pad isolators around here somewhere to properly isolate and locate pin 22 safely.
   
  just general note... this thing is pretty well put together for it's price range.  I am J-Standard Class III Cert. and it is definitely above Class I work, it is Class II+ looking at first glance (no scope and no extra lighting used at the moment).  It has good part placement, little light on the solder in some places, some left over flux in some spots, and 1 solder splat was found stuck to a capacitor.  
   
  Now here's my comment.  I want to see this run on a device that has the BW to actually RMAA this thing.  Good efforts so far to show the filter options work, but we don't want people taking those graphs to heart.


----------



## supercurio

Thanks guys for your investigations !

 To me everything indicates that it's defective by design.
  No matter how good or burn-in can be the analog part, nothings good with a misconfigured DAC.
  (The analog part is okay but IMO pretty boring at least with HD650)
   
  I appreciate the creator is here to discuss with us, but at the same time I must admit I'm really disappointed that he seems to discover all this.
  Looks like no serious test has been done during the development or manufacturing of this product.
   
  Defects (rolloff + resampling artifacts + lack of good oversampling) It took me 1 minute to hear, and a few hours to produce the graphs & measurements in order to share with you.
   
  I bought this DAC/amp to use it mainly connected to a set-top-box that outputs 48KHz signals, upsampling is not an option.
   
  Defective product = refund.
  Kingwa, I send you a message to ask how to proceed.
   
   
  PS: I hear till 19kHz and it's not everybody's case, impressions on what I consider a defect may vary.


----------



## LiqTenExp

had asked a question, then a comment and need to do some more research.... place holder for now.


----------



## Kingwa

I don't gree it is a defective product.

 At first we design the NFB12 we want to make it different flavor to the NFB11 and I want to make it with smooth sound , and we have mark on our web it is a bit smooth and forgive for source .
 It is work on hardware mode, so it is setting is follow the performance request and this is the best setting at 192KHz accept ability .
 The table of #577 post, it is so the max oversample setting. The NFB12 want to accept 192KHz oversample so the Pin22 must setting at 1 . Otherwise the NFB12 only can up to 48KHz or 96KHz.
 Does anyone had better setting in hardware mode?
  LiqTenExp post at #578 just customize setting, in face the USB can accept 96KHz and coaxial/optical can accept 192KHz but he limit USB at 44K and coaxial at 96KHz.
  About the high frequency roll off not mean it is a defective product, just read the diagram of #556 I was post, the Simaudio Moon Evolution Andromeda Reference CD player which is a colstly more than USD20K gear, also so the high frequency roll off around -3DB ,does anyone think it is a defective products?
   
  The high frequency roll off define sound flavor, it bring a smooth flavor.
 But the roll off not mean its sound unneutral, the neutral is depend on the circuits components less coloration, like some tube gears even without roll off at 20KHz but sound tube like (coloration).
  For supercurio: If you define the NFB12 is a defective product, please offer the effective evidence.
  For LiqTenExp post at #580, addition a MCU can check the oversample rate and setting the Pin22.
 But I think a MCU join in not a good idea for this price rang gear. In this price rang gear , the power supply is limit and the size is quite small, the MCU maybe bring more disturb to the sound make the sound quality degrade .


----------



## LiqTenExp

Kingwa,
   
  I agree with you that this thing is designed right for its price tag and size.  I think it sounds better than my LD DAC_I
   
  I don't hear any rolled off highs, and plus there is nothing good above 15k anyways, just trash and harmonics.  I personally dont ever plan on using 192khz so I may do what I was suggesting above anyways.


----------



## treaves

Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Defective product = refund.  Kingwa, I send you a message to ask how to proceed.
> 
> 
> PS: I hear till 19kHz and it's not everybody's case, impressions on what I consider a defect may vary.


 

 That it's not designed as you want it to be in no way makes it defective.  Stop being a petulant brat, and sell it if you are not happy.


----------



## borrego

From the RMAA test above, there is just 1db of rolloff at 15KHz.....It is nothing!
   
  Not meant to being rude but I think the slight placement difference of putting headphone over the ears and the amount of ear wax in one's ear canal would cause more difference....
   
  I think the 100pf and 470pf capacitors would make make more difference. But as Kingwa said, it was intentionally designed to be that way.
   
  And for the different digital filter used, I wonder if Wolfsen actually did it for a purpuse as it is more complicated for pin 22 to control more than just the max incoming frequency but also to change the filter.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> I don't gree it is a defective product.
> 
> At first we design the NFB12 we want to make it different flavor to the NFB11 and I want to make it with smooth sound , and we have mark on our web it is a bit smooth and forgive for source .
> It is work on hardware mode, so it is setting is follow the performance request and this is the best setting at 192KHz accept ability .
> ...


 

 Hi
   
  I accept the roll-off is design a choice to smooth the sound by killing the highest frequencies.
  What I consider as a defect is something else, it's the sampling artifacts due to a misconfiguration of the DACs:
   
  Here is how it appears on previous graphs:
   
  On udial:
   

   
   
  On the RMAA test file:
   

   
  On this graphs, remember that everything that's higher than the center (around 20kHz) is artifacts.

 For reference, here is how the first udial should look like: (nothing above 20kHz)
   

   
  I would suggest you to try by yourself: http://dl.project-voodoo.org/killer-samples/udial.wav
  When playing this file on headphones at moderate/high volume clocked at 44K, you'll hear high frequencies artifacts in the second part of the file.
   
  Compare with the NFB-12 clocked at 96 or 192k with a high quality upsampling (or another non-buggy DAC), you'll see the difference.
   
  This is the part I consider as a defect. Simply: bug in the implementation. It's hard to hear because of the additionnal roll-off, but it's there.
   
  But again, if people's are happy with the sound, I'm perfectly happy for them.
  My goal is not to trash a product but show technical deficiencies if any in order to see them fixed in future products or revision of the same product.


----------



## haloxt

supercurio is just offering constructive criticism, let's not kill the messenger . I don't know if he's right or wrong and don't have an nfb-12 to test on myself, but let's try to get to the bottom of this without resorting to any insults please.


----------



## erjifan

Oh boy, it amazes me how much people want to squeeze from a $237 gear.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





erjifan said:


> Oh boy, it amazes me how much people want to squeeze from a $237 gear.


 

 Hehe don't worry, I would have made the same kind of reports for a $20 usb sound card or any other audio device of any price.
  I want to see issues fixed, quality improved, that's what matters to me.


----------



## holland

Hi Kingwa,
   
  For alternate configurations, try this.
   
  For 44.1KHz mode, try using the apodising filter
   
  1) Pin 4 - float, do not attach *or* pull up resistor.  This is the Meridian CD player mode, when doing a pull-up resistor.
  2) Pin 22 - pull down resistor
   
  For 96KHz/192KHz
   
  1) Pin 4 - float, do not attach *OR* pull down resistor.  This is the Ayre mode, when floating.
  2) Pin 22 - pull up resistor
   
  Use a 3-state toggle switch for Pin 22, and a 3-state toggle switch for Pin 4.  Another option is to not change anything, YMMV.
   
  A high frequency roll-off is good, but not too wide for 44.1KHz.  For 96/192KHz, wide is good.  The *best* is 96KHz with linear soft-knee filter or minimum phase soft-knee filter.  I like minimum phase soft-knee if you can upsample.  If not upsampling, I prefer the minimum phase apodising filter.
   
  The roll-off is good, it just can't be too wide.
  
  Quote: 





kingwa said:


> I don't gree it is a defective product.
> 
> At first we design the NFB12 we want to make it different flavor to the NFB11 and I want to make it with smooth sound , and we have mark on our web it is a bit smooth and forgive for source .
> It is work on hardware mode, so it is setting is follow the performance request and this is the best setting at 192KHz accept ability .
> ...


----------



## Kingwa

Every design must had a target . It is as everybody had personal character and taste,  anyone can't ask him change his character .
  Not every design in world must have a same target, so why in world have a lot different gears and different sound flavor even though applied same chips.
   
  Some people like the HD650 for a warmer sound but some will like Denon or AKG, does any one think they must design same sound?
   
  In NFB12 we are want to design it is neutral but a bit smooth and forgive which is different to the NFB11. If you want it sound like NFB11, why necessary had the NFB12?
   
  The NFB12 sound flavor is just exact follow our design target.


----------



## Slaughter

I have been playing with the sox resampler in foobar tonight. With my test music 48k is superior to 44.1, 88.2 or 96. Not sure what it is, but instruments have a bit better dynamics. So much for graphs and geek speak.


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





holland said:


> Hi Kingwa,
> 
> For alternate configurations, try this.
> 
> ...


 


  From the Datasheet of 8741 Page 42
   
  At 44khz
  pin 4 float is response 4 which is Linear Phase apodising filter 
  pin 4 pull up is response 5 minimum phase apodising filter 
   
  for 96/192 
  Pin 4 float is min phase apodising filter 
  pin 4 low is response 1 Linear phase soft knee
   
  Did I read the datasheet wrongly or are you confuse ?


----------



## holland

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> From the Datasheet of 8741 Page 42
> 
> At 44khz
> pin 4 float is response 4 which is Linear Phase apodising filter
> ...


 

 You read it wrong.  For 96/192, pin 4 float is the minimum phase soft knee filter, not apodising which is a narrow band.  It is a time domain filter instead of linear phase.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> So much for graphs and geek speak.


 

 And technology would be nowhere without it.  So much for slighting engineering with that comment.


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sorry my bad,  ok it should read 
   
   
  At 44khz
  pin 4 float is response 4 which is Linear Phase apodising filter 
  pin 4 pull up is response 5 minimum phase apodising filter 
   
  for 96/192 
  Pin 4 float is min phase soft knee
  pin 4 low is response 1 Linear phase soft knee
   
   This seem that you do not like the "Meridian CD player" mode then.
   
  I need to reread your comment many time. It is a bit confusing. Sorry


----------



## Kassem

How would the NFB-12 compare to the original Compass.  Just wondering if I should look into something newer.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> Every design must had a target . It is as everybody had personal character and taste,  anyone can't ask him change his character .
> Not every design in world must have a same target, so why in world have a lot different gears and different sound flavor even though applied same chips.
> 
> Some people like the HD650 for a warmer sound but some will like Denon or AKG, does any one think they must design same sound?
> ...


 
   
  Kingwa,
   
  I understand that we should respect your design goal.
   
  But saying that why I necessary want to had NFB12? It is because I cannot order NFB11 any longer... that could be the same reason for other people that ordering NFB12... If NFB11 is still orderable, I will change my order to NFB11... can I?


----------



## PPkiller

which software player are u using? have u tried using foobar and with wasapi?
  
  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kingwa

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


   The NFB11 was had the USB problems because the ES9018 can't forgive the I2S input.
  We addition a PLL for fix the problems.
  But after that , we want to buy more PLL chips but there are only few hundreds pcs in whole Chinese market and the price asked for 5X times than normal.
  If we place a order to manufacturer , we want to order 10K pcs.
  But if some lot customers like the 2X coaxial +1 X optical version NFB11, we are like to cooperate with customers rebuild the NFB11.


----------



## Slaughter

I might be in for one. Since you would have to remove the USB, maybe you could offer a combo deal for those that want the Digital Interface and the NFB-11.
  
  Quote: 





kingwa said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## PPkiller

*udial at 44k, sampled at 96k :*
*udial upsampled at 96k, sampled at 96k:*
   
  will like to ask, how do u go about setting upsampled, and the sampled frequency? will like to find out the method u used, jus to rule out software resampling which took place in the OS audio path.
  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Hi again!
> 
> I ran new analysis with improved settings and setup (more adequate gains, only 1 computer to avoid noise sources, better cables)
> 
> ...


 


> *44k/24bit performance*
> http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-44k-24bit.htm
> 
> *96k/24bit performance*
> ...


 



> *RMAA test wave upsampled at 96k, sampled at 96k:*


 


> PS: sox graphs are generated with:
> 
> ```
> for x in *.wav ;do sox $x -n spectrogram -o $x.png -x 1600 -s -t "$x" -w Kaiser -z 120; done
> ```


----------



## j2kei

Ok so I was one of the earlier people that complained about the NFB-12 sounding bad, however it has been 2 weeks and i've come to report my findings as promised. lemme say that the sound on this baby HAS CHANGED! the amount of change is significant. the sound is so much cleaner, bass is not bloated and messy as it was before. the mid and highs are starting to come out. in fact, now i sometimes wonder if there is enough bass. the bass has definitely become more textured instead of some bloated blob that irritates the hell out of me. i feel the highs are pretty extended and sound pretty good on my hd600. i also felt that before, there was a sort of veil. the sound was there, however it felt mask and unclear. now it is nice, clear, and squeeky clean. also, before when i made the report, i felt that the nfb-12 made my hd600 sound like an hd650. now i can gladly say that my hd600 out of my nfb-12 sounds like how an hd600 should sound, neutral with some light sparkly smooth highs . i urge you guys to continue using your nfb-12. this thing required A LOT of burn-in for it to sound good. i had it on for 2 weekends w/o playing sounds, around 6 nights where i would let it connect to a cheapo headphone and run music through.


----------



## Audiophil

Nobody of us is able to listen locally to this instrument's 'sound' in advance. We have to trust on the information we get from audio-gd (and on this nice discussion in forum of coarse).
  I don't like 'sounds', because this means to distort the original signal. Several companies are offering products with a 'sound', this is usually a company 'sound', some may like it and know it in advance. With audio-gd it's a bit more complicated, they offer different sounds and describe it with nice words, all a matter of interpretation, no facts. And I cannot judge, because I have not heard it...
  Therefore it seems to be essential to get detailed spec's of proper equipment 
   
  For me it makes no sense to implement the abilty to work on high resolution in compromising the basic resolution 44,1/48 kHz. At least for me this represents 95% of my music.
   
  P.S.: Maybe they implemented the filter because of the artefacts??


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





audiophil said:


> Nobody of us is able to listen locally to this instrument's 'sound' in advance. We have to trust on the information we get from audio-gd (and on this nice discussion in forum of coarse).
> I don't like 'sounds', because this means to distort the original signal. Several companies are offering products with a 'sound', this is usually a company 'sound', some may like it and know it in advance. With audio-gd it's a bit more complicated, they offer different sounds and describe it with nice words, all a matter of interpretation, no facts. And I cannot judge, because I have not heard it...
> Therefore it seems to be essential to get detailed spec's of proper equipment
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yea you figure on a budget amp/dac it would be optimized to use the basic resolution as opposed to the higher ones.  It sounds pretty good so far but knowing that it could have been better is another thing.  It is a promo item though so I wouldn't expect it to be fully optimized yet.  Luckily we have people on here that will do the tests to help us out in the long run.


----------



## Slaughter

It could have sounded better? If the "issue" was resolved, it would sound like an NFB-11. That's like saying that if the HD650's "issue" was fixed, it would sound better. Well some people like the sound of the 650 over something like the 880. The roll off is what gives it the smooth sound as described on their website. What is the difference between headphones that sound smooth and headphones that sound detailed and analytical?


----------



## killkli

Well, I see that the resampling is indeed an issue since non-existing information did produced by the setting. This is not "right."
   
  But as far as RMAA is concerned, I don't think it's such a good reference. See how my Firestone Spitfire wins in every score in RMAA testing:
 RightMark Audio Analyzer test report 
 Testing device Spitfire Sampling mode 24-bit, 48 kHz Interface   Testing chain External loopback (line-out - line-in) RMAA Version 6.2.3         20 Hz - 20 kHz filter ON Normalize amplitude ON Level change -1.0 dB / -1.0 dB Mono mode OFF Calibration singal, Hz 1000 Polarity correct/correct
 


 Summary 
 Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB  +0.00, -0.05
  Excellent
 Noise level, dB (A)  -106.9
  Excellent
 Dynamic range, dB (A)  106.9
  Excellent
 THD, %  0.0010
  Excellent
 THD + Noise, dB (A)  -93.4
  Very good
 IMD + Noise, %  0.0021
  Excellent
 Stereo crosstalk, dB  -106.4
  Excellent
 IMD at 10 kHz, %  0.0024
  Excellent
 *General performance*   
 *Excellent*

 


 Frequency response








 From 20 Hz to 20 kHz, dB  -0.17, +0.00
 From 40 Hz to 15 kHz, dB  -0.05, +0.00

 


 Noise level







    Left
  Right
 RMS power, dB  -106.0
  -105.4
 RMS power (A-weighted), dB  -107.2
  -106.5
 Peak level, dB FS  -84.3
  -83.6
 DC offset, %  +0.0
  +0.0

 


 Dynamic range







    Left
  Right
 Dynamic range, dB  +106.0
  +105.4
 Dynamic range (A-weighted), dB  +107.2
  +106.5
 DC offset, %  +0.00
  -0.00

 


 THD + Noise (at -3 dB FS)







    Left
  Right
 THD, %  +0.0010
  +0.0010
 THD + Noise, %  +0.0019
  +0.0021
 THD + Noise (A-weighted), %  +0.0020
  +0.0023

 


 Intermodulation distortion







    Left
  Right
 IMD + Noise, %  +0.0018
  +0.0023
 IMD + Noise (A-weighted), %  +0.0015
  +0.0018

 


 Stereo crosstalk







    Left
  Right
 Crosstalk at 100 Hz, dB  -102
  -104
 Crosstalk at 1000 Hz, dB  -105
  -106
 Crosstalk at 10000 Hz, dB  -99
  -98

 


 IMD (swept tones)







    Left
  Right
 IMD + Noise at 5000 Hz,  0.0024
  0.0024
 IMD + Noise at 10000 Hz,  0.0022
  0.0024
 IMD + Noise at 15000 Hz,  0.0025
  0.0025

   
  It's almost perfect score as far as RMAA testing is concerned.
  But in reality, I enjoyed TDA1543 based non-feedback & non-oversampling DAC more than Spitfire. Remember, TDA1543 has the same roll-off in high frequency as shown in NFB-12.
   
  One more point: in reality, your headphone's FR response difference is "MUCH" greater than what little roll-off the DAC could present.
  For example, my HD600 has about almost 15dB differences in high frequency domain.
   
  Really...... it's not such a big deal. Though the resampling setting does seemd to be problematic.
  There should not be any information higher than 22kHz when the input digital data is 44kHz only.


----------



## Audiophil

sorry Slaughter, we are not talking regarding 'better'. This is a matter of individual taste.
  In case of HD650 I don't know the data, but if people report it's smoothness or softness or less agressiveness I would assume, it has a slight decrease at high frequencies.
  - If you wold combine it with NFB-11, maybe this can be perfect compensated.
  - If you wold combine it with a more or less linear DAC, it would be very similar than 'original'.
  - If you wold combine it with NFB-12, you will combine 2 times decreased high frequencies, which is maybe too much lost.
   
  Please, take it just as examples, I don't know the data in detail.


----------



## Audiophil

Hi Killkli,
   
  perfect data indeed, I agree. This box should sound more or less neutral, not necessarily perfect, because not everything influencing the sound is easy measurable..
   
  If you enjoy the 1543 in combination with HD600 is simple your personal taste, but means also, that you may have now 18 dB change of high frequencies.
  You are totally right, the deviation of speakers, headphones and ears are much larger and more dificult to design 
   
   
  Quote: 





> There should not be any information higher than 22kHz when the input digital data is 44kHz only.


 
   
  Yes, and if you at the same time the 20kHz want to be transmitted, this is also a complicated task and not possible with a 6dB RC filter...


----------



## JaMo

Hi everybody.
  I am a person who likes the fact that Kingwa runs a company under upgoing based on a very sund idea by bringing the market a very competent product line of gear and this for generally, very attractive prices. I respect him alot for this. More people should.
   
  It hurts to see the critisism from some users though. I fully agree with Kingwa when he sais that when You design an item You must have a very precise idea/goal with the item.
   
  The NFB-12 which I also have ordered is a very competent piece of equipment on paper. I haven't heard it yet but I am sure it will be great, based on what users experienced and reported here. For USD200 it is a bargain... and everybody here knows this for sure. Of course these lower priced products in this line have a potential for further improvements.... But please don't expect Kingwa to make excuses for his work. If You want to squeese out more.... please do.. And if You do it, the smarter way is to wait a while for the warranty to expire and a proper burn in.
   
  If You want a more complete setup, choose the higher gear: REF- or NFB-7 , -8
   
  @Kingwa and his staff. Thank You and keep up Your work and Your high ambition as before.
   
  /Jan


----------



## Audiophil

Hi Jan,
  I underline most of your post.
  Remember, I had also my reasns, when I ordered the NFB-12.
  But why not improve, when it is easy going? Personally I would also go for 50% more, if the result is as expected.
  On the other hand not everybody is able or willing to solder SMD parts...
   
  My only concern to audio-gd is: As they are located far away and not present at local dealers, where you could test the staff, it would be nice to get more exact information regarding the characteristic of the boxes.The use of nice words instead of tech data causes misunderstandings.
   
  BR
  Michael


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> It could have sounded better? If the "issue" was resolved, it would sound like an NFB-11. That's like saying that if the HD650's "issue" was fixed, it would sound better. Well some people like the sound of the 650 over something like the 880. The roll off is what gives it the smooth sound as described on their website. What is the difference between headphones that sound smooth and headphones that sound detailed and analytical?


 
   
  You're right with the different flavor and all but something tells me even with a rolloff similar to an NFB-11 they're 2 totally different chips so they'd have a different sound regardless of the filter. 
   
  As for wanting it to sound like an NFB-11 we'll see.  I get mine in about a week so I'll be able to truly "hear" the difference.


----------



## Slaughter

Exactly! People are wanting the NFB-12 to sound like something its not and wasn't designed to sound like. The NFB-12 is smooth, period. That's why I have said all along that it would be a good match for Beyers and Grados. I find it excellent with the M50 which can have stident highs. If you don't want to smooth out the highs on your phones, then it's not the amp/dac for you. I just don't understand why people want Kingwa to change the sound when it was clear what they were buying.

  
  Quote: 





audiophil said:


> sorry Slaughter, we are not talking regarding 'better'. This is a matter of individual taste.
> In case of HD650 I don't know the data, but if people report it's smoothness or softness or less agressiveness I would assume, it has a slight decrease at high frequencies.
> - If you wold combine it with NFB-11, maybe this can be perfect compensated.
> - If you wold combine it with a more or less linear DAC, it would be very similar than 'original'.
> ...


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





kassem said:


> How would the NFB-12 compare to the original Compass.  Just wondering if I should look into something newer.


 


  The compass has a "natural" or "organic" sound to it. If NFB-12 is similar to wm8741 sparrow, then NFB-12 should be a good amount more technically detailed with more precise soundstage, less "musical", but neutral. I like both, but definitely my sparrow is more technically capable. The main difference between sparrow and higher end audio-gd gear is timbre, sparrow presents such microdetail as bolder macrodetail, while higher end gear can express microdetail more precisely, subtly and nuanced. If you don't need such high resolution microdetail, the wm8741 sparrow is really great, and so should the NFB-12 be.


----------



## Kingwa

In our NFB11 page we always post the different sonice between NFB11 and NFB12.
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB11/NFB11EN.htm
   
  English is not our mother tongue maybe we can't exact explain the sonic flavors.
   I think this link even though reviews the NFB2, but  the NFB12 sound flavor is quite near the NFB2 although sound quality is different level. Maybe can easier understand than our describing . They both are put the targets at smooth sounding and had a different to our ES9018 and PCM1704 based products.
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au/index.php/audio-reviews/digital-source-reviews/item/177-audio-gd-nfb-2-dac-19-series


----------



## haloxt

Kingwa, your sound signature descriptions are perfectly fine. Maybe consider increasing the font size so people can notice it better ... something like this.
   
The NFB-11 has quite high fidelity, its sound signature is absolutely revealing, neutral and faithful and very detailed. It can show how good or how bad a recording is. If you are afraid of flaws being revealed in the music files, other gears like those applying WM8741 will be better.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Exactly! People are wanting the NFB-12 to sound like something its not and wasn't designed to sound like. The NFB-12 is smooth, period. That's why I have said all along that it would be a good match for Beyers and Grados.


 

 Agreed... this is exactly why I chose the NFB-12 to match with my RS-1s at work.
   
  Now, in practice, the NFB-12 turns the RS-1s into something I never thought they'd be: smooth and balanced cans that I can listen to for hours at a time. I wouldn't want the NFB-12 to be my only Grado amp -- they don't rock quite hard enough for those moments when you really want to crank it -- but for my office rig and all-day listening, the NFB-12 is perfect so far.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Olias, what do you think of NFB-12 paired with HF2?
  
  HF2 is not usual Grado and is smooth already naturally... would NFB-12 still have the grunt to make it alive?


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> Olias, what do you think of NFB-12 paired with HF2?
> 
> HF2 is not usual Grado and is smooth already naturally... would NFB-12 still have the grunt to make it alive?


 


  Hello! Good question. I haven't tried this combo yet, as my HF-2s stay home and the NFB-12 stays at work. I'll take the HF-2s into the office for a few days and get back to you....


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> Hello! Good question. I haven't tried this combo yet, as my HF-2s stay home and the NFB-12 stays at work. I'll take the HF-2s into the office for a few days and get back to you....


 

 Thanks...  I need to know that... cause that's what I plan to pair the NFB12 with...


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





ppkiller said:


> *udial at 44k, sampled at 96k :*
> *udial upsampled at 96k, sampled at 96k:*
> 
> will like to ask, how do u go about setting upsampled, and the sampled frequency? will like to find out the method u used, jus to rule out software resampling which took place in the OS audio path.


 
   
  Hi!
   
  In the previous graphes:

 44k were untouched samples until arriving to the DAC.
 44k upsampled were upsampled to 96k with Foobar + SoX plugin very high quality (sox resampling is the best rate conversion I know).
   
   
   Both were sampled at 96k by an Asus Xonar Essence ST


----------



## PPkiller

scenario A
  44K untouched --> Asus Xonar upsampled to 96k --> nfb-12
   
  Scenario B
  44K upsampled to 96k by foobar + SoX --> Asus Xonar(since already 96k so i guess no resampling) --> nfb-12
  
   
  i will guess scenario A, Asus xonar is doing the resampling which could contribute to the sampling graph that u have generated.
   
  Are you able to do the following?
   
  44K untouched --> Asus Xonar configured for 44k output --> NFB-12
   
  with foobar + wasapi
   
  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> Both were sampled at 96k by an Asus Xonar Essence ST


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





ppkiller said:


> scenario A
> 44K untouched --> Asus Xonar upsampled to 96k --> nfb-12
> 
> Scenario B
> ...


 

  
  Much simpler that that, as described: sorry I don't understand your virtual setup 
   
  Once again:
   
*44k: untouched, which means*
  44k file => 44k SPDIF => 44k NFB-12 DAC => 96k ADC to do the graph (Xonar Essence ST)
   
*44k 96k upsampled*
  44k file => upsampled by sox to 96k => 96k SPDIF => 96k NFB-12 DAC => 96k ADC to do the graph (Xonar Essence ST)
   
  (yes, artifacts at 44k are due to NFB-12)
  PS: I used 2 computers, one to play / drive the SPDIF , one other to record.


----------



## PPkiller

are u able to generate a 48k graph using the same setup?
  
  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## thuantran

@supercurio: which output method are you using with foobar? If it is DS you can't be sure that the sampling rate reaching the NFB-12 is what you set in foobar player. Say you have 44.1KHz from foobar goes to Xonar set at 44.1KHz but inside Windows Playback Devices Control panel you set your Xonar output to something different then Windows will resample the output. Unless you're using WASAPI you have to set sampling rate at 3 places (foobar, Xonar, Windows playback devices control panel) to be the same.


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





liqtenexp said:


> update, the center contact on the switch is ground.  technically one could lift both pin 22s, then connect to them together and run a single 30awg wire over to the bottom contact on the input select switch.  this would give you the correct filter for 44.1 usb and 96k for opt/coax.
> 
> i may have some ceramic pad isolators around here somewhere to properly isolate and locate pin 22 safely.
> 
> ...


 
  The NFB12 comes with a number of power regulator for the different section, if you want to tap the ground/Vcc it would be advisable to choose the Digital ground used with the 8741, I choose a very close capacitor which is connected to both pin 7 and 8 of the 8741. 
   
  I am not even J-standard (any class) certified   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
   
  If you would sponsor me a device with a BW to RMAA this I would gladly do so again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  
   


  Quote: 





kingwa said:


> The high frequency roll off define sound flavor, it bring a smooth flavor.
> But the roll off not mean its sound unneutral, the neutral is depend on the circuits components less coloration, like some tube gears even without roll off at 20KHz but sound tube like (coloration).


 
   
  You given us a bonus actually, or rather two bonus
  There are 3 sound signature for the NFB12 
  Is anyone complain about receiving 2 extra  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The 3 sound signature could be set by using different input data rate. 
  Maybe using 44 is the "smooth musical" sound flavor
  using 96 is in between "musical and neutral "
  and 192 is "neutral "

  
  Quote: 





thuantran said:


> @supercurio: which output method are you using with foobar? If it is DS you can't be sure that the sampling rate reaching the NFB-12 is what you set in foobar player. Say you have 44.1KHz from foobar goes to Xonar set at 44.1KHz but inside Windows Playback Devices Control panel you set your Xonar output to something different then Windows will resample the output. Unless you're using WASAPI you have to set sampling rate at 3 places (foobar, Xonar, Windows playback devices control panel) to be the same.


 
   
  As long as the output is 192 it is fine. 
   
  Maybe supercurio could use his Xonar (since my X-fi is substandard) to record a part of a song in a set up like 
  PC (playback) -->NGB12-->Xonar-->PC (to record)
  You can then record the 3 different sound flavor and share so that other could hear the difference.


----------



## LiqTenExp

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  If one were simply looking to ground the pin yes, but if you looked I was not.
   
  J Standard is a soldering standard BTW


----------



## Kingwa

If you are knowning the digital filter technology and practise you will don't surprise a lot digital audio gears had different sonice at different oversample rates. I am not a teacher and my English is not allow I explain the detail. I will try to find time interpret my Chinese article maybe can explain clearer.
   Search diagram in the link maybe help.
  http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/


----------



## Audiophil

Hi Kingwa,
  nice to have you in the discussion.
  I have been looking to > 10 devices's measurements from your link. Naturally most of them have different curves on the different sample rates. But also nearly all of them has a roll-off on 44.1 KHz of max. -1 dB @ 20kHz. This means no difference in sound footprint.
  This is different in NFB-12. I assume (as I can only assume) the sonic character as you are describing it, is related to fs=44,1 kHz. I believe at higher rates it will sound different, right?


----------



## Kingwa

The R2R chips usually had close sonic at different oversampling rate.
  But the lot sigma-delta chips is different sonic at different oversampling rate because the  different oversampling digital filter applied.
   
  May I put the WM8741 as a example.
  Case A, the WM8741 fix to a single type digital filter, it had different roll off at high frequency cause the sound flavors had some different.
  Case B, The WM8741 applied different type digital filter, it had less different  roll off at high frequency, but it applied the 8X oversampling at 44/48K, and 4X oversampling at 88/96K, and 2X oversampling at 176/192K, also cause the sound flavors had some different.
   
  Except the different oversampling filter applied cause different sound, in different oversample rates input, the DAC must had different frequency band also can cause the sonic different.(except the NOS)
   
  Then we want to ask, which case cause the more sound different between the different roll off at high frequency  and the 2X/4X/8X oversampling digital filter applied?
   
  I think the different oversampling filter sound is quite different. Lower oversampling sound usually  smoother than higher oversampling . So some people prefer NOS butNOS had quite botchy  specs .
   
  For the sonic listen , we choice the analog filter caps large than the NFB11, just for smooth sound and reduce the sound different between different oversampe rate input.
   
   
  Do you understand my broke English explain? I want to explain more but I can't find the words for use.


----------



## Audiophil

yes, I think I understand in general. For sure some of the experts in the forum have expertise how to deal with the specific technique, me not really.
  But no doubt, different filters and oversampling rates have influences and I'm sure you checked carefully.
  I was simply surprised, when I recognized the drop-off @ 44,1 kH and was not sure if the design would be nicely balanced.


----------



## supercurio

Quote: 





thuantran said:


> @supercurio: which output method are you using with foobar? If it is DS you can't be sure that the sampling rate reaching the NFB-12 is what you set in foobar player. Say you have 44.1KHz from foobar goes to Xonar set at 44.1KHz but inside Windows Playback Devices Control panel you set your Xonar output to something different then Windows will resample the output. Unless you're using WASAPI you have to set sampling rate at 3 places (foobar, Xonar, Windows playback devices control panel) to be the same.


 

  
  Hi, I did counter-measurements with my AVR SPDIF input (Denon AVR-1911) , and also tested NFB-12 with Linux & Windows both plugged on SPDIF and USB.
 Also of course i triple checked the various sampling rate parameters, first thing.
  
  No sound issue you can hear or measure with the AVR (clean sound & graphs) - results as described in the measurements graphs with NFB-12 @44k.

 Sorry, I packed the NFB-12, I won't do new measurments on it (48k or else)


----------



## dw1narso

Supercurio,
   
  I found something interresting...
   
  I download the file that you mention: http://dl.project-voodoo.org/killer-samples/udial.wav
   
  try it on my notebook, which use Conexant 20561 soundcard/chip. (which can accpet 24bit/96KHz)
   
  I play it on foobar. I always get distorted sound when I use 44.1KHz rate. I did try different output format 16/24/32bit does not help.
  and the sound become clean and undistorted when I upsample to 48,88, and so on above.
   
  The result is the same whether I upsample using SoX or PPHS. The sound become clean when I upsample.
   
  I wonder now... could it be that this is the issue on the WM8741 in general?
   
  Guys, especially Madwolf,
   
  please download the file and try it by yourself with NFB12, with all condition whenever possible. Madwolf, please try play the file in 44.1KHz with different OSR on the chip. As well upsample the file and with different OSR.


----------



## PPkiller

something in the sound chain is messing up the 44khz input. i do know some sound chip / audio codec has issue with 44khz. they do not natively support it and instead they resample it to 48khz(lousy resampling). a simple way to overcome this issue is for user to resample it to 48khz with software and then send it to the audio chain.


----------



## Elanzer

Can you describe the distortion you're getting? Using no resampler, or using the SoX plugin to upsample to 4x or 192khz sounds identical, but I'm also not using the NFB-12's amp output. I do hear something in the background of the file, but it doesn't change no matter what I resample it to. It might be just a part of the source file though that I'm hearing, since it doesn't sound like distortion.


----------



## dw1narso

if you listen on the 44.1KHz, there's like a pulsing rattle sound in the background...
   
  this ratlling sound simply gone and the main sound become much cleaner when I upsample (actually downsample also clean this background "noise", but this could be because the downsample make the frequency response been cut?) and you can hear then that the 19KHz that supercurio mention is actually a pulsing wave...
   
  I found this "noise" on my pc default soundcard Conexant which got the stream directly from Directsound, while Supercurio mention he found it on WM8741 on NFB12, fed by SPDI/F, coming from his PC...
   
  this is strange... why the noise only come up in 44.1Khz rate?
  Could this be Windows codec issue?
   
  Elanzer, are you using Directsound or ASIO to connect to NFB-12. Can you try both DS and ASIO?
   
  EDIT: I use Windows XP. And for now, I cannot use other way to test. I'm no longer holding my Audinst.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> if you listen on the 44.1KHz, there's like a pulsing rattle sound in the background...
> 
> this ratlling sound simply gone and the main sound become much cleaner when I upsample (actually downsample also clean this background "noise", but this could be because the downsample make the frequency response been cut?) and you can hear then that the 19KHz that supercurio mention is actually a pulsing wave...
> 
> ...


 

 Can you describe the noise better and where?  There are artifacts, but usually in the last 4 digits of the phone number.  It's a high frequency whirring which doesn't change from DAC to DAC.


----------



## Moving Air

Hi Supercurio,
   
  I have been reading your posts on evaluating the NFB-12 and the professional Measurements done.  I'm very impressed with your determination to make things work right.  I'm MovingAir from Singapore and previously worked in Panasonic and later Philips Electronics as an Audio/Acoustics Design Engineer...but currently, I'm lecturing sound technology in a Technical college.  
   
  Initially wanted to buy the NFB-11,but waited too long...so now I switched my order to NFB-12...I'm not quite please to see that the high freq. roll-off coming down too fast...plus not to mention the sampling selection issue.  
   
  Are you returning your set?  Aren't you exploring using 3 way toggle switch to correct the sampling selection problem?  If that can be easily done, you can still keep it....btw, I'm curious to hear from your comments on the sound quality aspects assuming all problems have been solved?  
   
  Your comments would be appreciated.....thank you very much.


----------



## vrln

Moving Air: The NFB-11 is available once again (non-USB version). So if you are looking for something more neutral (NFB-12 is intended to sound smooth and relaxed), you can change your order back.


----------



## FeiJai




----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> if you listen on the 44.1KHz, there's like a pulsing rattle sound in the background...
> 
> this ratlling sound simply gone and the main sound become much cleaner when I upsample (actually downsample also clean this background "noise", but this could be because the downsample make the frequency response been cut?) and you can hear then that the 19KHz that supercurio mention is actually a pulsing wave...
> 
> ...


 

 I have tried a few things. The following is all done with windows set to 192/24 playback device output.
   
  Foobar2000:
   
  NFB-12 DS no resample - background noise, but sounds like a part of the recording, almost like an echo / analog feedback from the device that's dialing
  NFB-12 DS SoX resample 2x = same as above
  NFB-12 DS SoX resample 4x = same as above
  NFB-12 DS SoX resample 96KHz = same as above
  NFB-12 DS SoX resample 192KHz = same as above
   
  NFB-12 WASAPI 44KHz = Very present whiring noise
  NFB-12 WASAPI SoX 48KHz = Very present whiring noise, even more than 44KHz
  NFB-12 WASAPI SoX 96KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
  NFB-12 WASAPI SoX 192KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
   
  Onboard Realtek ALC892 DS 44KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
  Onboard Realtek ALC892 DS SoX 48KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
  Onboard Realtek ALC892 DS SoX 96KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
  Onboard Realtek ALC892 DS SoX 192KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
   
  Onboard Realtek ALC892 WASAPI 44KHz = Present whiring noise, but not as present as NFB-12
  Onboard Realtek ALC892 WASAPI SoX 48KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
  Onboard Realtek ALC892 WASAPI SoX 96KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
  Onboard Realtek ALC892 WASAPI SoX 192KHz = Background noise, same as all the DS samples
   
  Tried on both LD MKIII amp out, and NFB-12 amp out = no difference
  Tried on ATH-M50 instead of T1 = no difference
   
  Cowon D2 = Very present whiring noise.
  Nokia N900 smartphone = Present whiring noise.
   
  Setting NFB-12's output in Windows to 44KHz/16BIT output, no resample DS = Whiring noise.
   
  If the whiring noise is intended, then resampling actually seems to make things worse. All my other devices put forward the whiring noise just like the NFB-12 is doing at 44KHz without any resampling, so I don't see how 44KHz playback is broken.


----------



## Currawong

Here's a question: If normal music is tested with the NFB-12, does it have artifacts? The reason I ask is, I tried playing that tone track through my system and had very weird results if I up-sampled it with cracking distortion coming through.  Checking it with a music program, it seems to have a lot of sound above 20 kHz, which is very unlike anything we'd be playing back normally.


----------



## movi

this is all confusing. can someone please clarify for me weather there's anything wrong with the NFB-12 that i'm waiting for?


----------



## holland

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> If the whiring noise is intended, then *resampling actually seems to make things worse*. All my other devices put forward the whiring noise just like the NFB-12 is doing at 44KHz without any resampling, so I don't see how 44KHz playback is broken.


 


  LOL.  I actually think it improves a bit, the whirring becomes more focused.  However, not tested on NFB-12 as I don't have it yet (may go for NFB-11), but tested on all my other DACs.
   
  I don't think it's broken.  I think it may be some aliasing artifacts, but it's hard to determine without an oscilloscope and a FFT running close to the nyquist frequency (19kHz, 20kHz, 21kHz, etc.).
   
  The NFB-12 does nothing special.  It utilizes the WM8741 filters, but choses a low oversampling rate (192kHz selection).   I don't think it's optimal, YMMV.  After the WM8741, it goes to a discrete buffer stage.  It's nothing special, it's not a high end CDP which would have a DSP or FPGA before the DAC and disabling all the DAC filters.  It's a very basic off the shelf DAC to a buffer, but at a good price.
   
  FWIW, I configured my DIY dual WM8741 DAC just like the NFB-12, except it uses opamp line drivers with no headamp.  My DAC has 3-state switches for oversampling and filter, so I can choose and listen to every HW filter configuration at whim.  So, while my opinions about udial are not on the NFB-12, I have tested it in a similar configuration and on various other DACs, (Alien DAC, Buffalo DAC, Porta Corda, PCM1794 DAC, all DIY).


----------



## holland

Quote: 





movi said:


> this is all confusing. can someone please clarify for me weather there's anything wrong with the NFB-12 that i'm waiting for?


 


  Wrong?  In what way?  There are opinions on the filters.  My opinion is that it is configured too wide, but my preference is for high oversampling, with a narrower slow roll-off (much like some higher end CDPs).
   
  It's easy to change in any way you want, as the NFB-12 is a simple design, and rightly so.  I would buy it, and mod it if you are capable of doing such.  YMMV.  You can also upsample it, as most people will use it with a computer and not a CD transport.
   
  FWIW, I can hear differences in filters with pretty much any setup.  The frequency roll-off is noticeable, but subtle as some sounds push to the background.  Others may notice it too.  I do agree the NFB-12 is valued well.  It's a pretty basic design, and really hard to get wrong.  If there were switches for oversampling rate and filter selection, then there really wouldn't be much to argue about.  Select what you want.  I would disagree it is nitpicking off of measurements.  The WM8741 is warm even without the rolloff, IMO.  The Sabre chips, those are colder.
   
  If your choice is between the NFB-12 and some soundcards or onboard audio, NFB-12 all the way.  You can change the "flavor" by upsampling.  If that's not in your ability then one should consider the frequency graph.  If you like the NOS TDA1543 with passive I/V, you'll probably like the NFB-12 in it's standard configuration without upsampling.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





movi said:


> this is all confusing. can someone please clarify for me weather there's anything wrong with the NFB-12 that i'm waiting for?


 


  I wouldn't worry about it. It's all nit-picking based off measurements (which we already know, aren't the end-all). I personally can't tell a difference between resampling and not-resampling at all even with these very revealing headphones, as the frequency that's rolled off and experiencing "artifacts" is inaudible (atleast, to me). For $200, the NFB-12 is still a very solid performer for the price, you can't expect to get a DAC/Amp that's perfect in every single way for $200. It's very good for the price and sounds awesome, I haven't heard any artifacts or anything abnormal while using it. If for whatever reason you don't like it, just sell it on the FS forum.
   
  It's definitely worlds better than my onboard and xonar DX, and a bit better than my old Sparrow as well (mostly preference though, NFB-12 seems warmer than my Sparrow and I prefer it that way.


----------



## Elanzer

What I actually meant by this, is that the other devices hear the whiring as well as the NFB-12 when no resampling is being done, but when I resample it's different as the whiring is pretty much completely gone and replaced with an analog feedback-like sound in the background. I prefer to listen to it with the resampling for obvious reasons (no annoying whiring and thus dial more pronounced), but if it's "wrong" to have the whiring removed, then resampling is doing things worse from a reference point of view.
   
  Quote:


holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## holland

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> What I actually meant by this, is that the other devices hear the whiring as well as the NFB-12 when no resampling is being done, but when I resample it's different as the whiring is pretty much completely gone and replaced with an analog feedback-like sound in the background. I prefer to listen to it with the resampling for obvious reasons (no annoying whiring and thus dial more pronounced), but if it's "wrong" to have the whiring removed, then resampling is doing things worse from a reference point of view.


 
   
  Ah, yes.  Agreed.  It doesn't disappear for me though, still audible at higher sampling rates.  It does become less pronounced when going to 96kHz and above, again identical on all DACs I have.


----------



## Cankin

Do you guys with NFB-12 hear that whiring noise with anything other than that udial.wav file?


----------



## baylaef

I notice supercurio's result.
  There are artifacts(noise) between 22k and 44k range.
  This means the over sampling of WM8741 is not good.
  If oversampling works well, artifacts should go to higher range and removed by digitalflter easily.
   
  WM8741 may not do interpolation at middle/high rate mode. So artifacts stay between 22k and 44k range. 
  It's not pin configuration issue but WM8741's own performance.
  WM8741's oversampling does not work practically.
   
  We can't hear the noise itself over 20k, but the beat noise made by sound and higher noise may be heard.
  So high artifacts shall be removed.
   
  Quote: 





supercurio said:


> Hi again!
> 
> I ran new analysis with improved settings and setup (more adequate gains, only 1 computer to avoid noise sources, better cables)
> 
> ...


 


> *44k/24bit performance*
> http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-44k-24bit.htm
> 
> *96k/24bit performance*
> ...


 



> *RMAA test wave upsampled at 96k, sampled at 96k:*


 


> PS: sox graphs are generated with:
> 
> ```
> for x in *.wav ;do sox $x -n spectrogram -o $x.png -x 1600 -s -t "$x" -w Kaiser -z 120; done
> ```


----------



## holland

Quote: 





baylaef said:


> I notice supercurio's result.
> There are artifacts(noise) between 22k and 44k range.
> This means the over sampling of WM8741 is not good.
> If oversampling works well, artifacts should go to higher range and removed by digitalflter easily.
> ...


 

 The NFB-12 sets the WM8741 into 2x oversampling mode (192kHz sampling rate for the oversampling rate control).  It would be best to analyze with a FFT instead of udial.


----------



## Greg121986

Would the NFB-11 be a better choice than the NFB-12?


----------



## Slaughter

I am probably the first, but just sold my NFB-12. It's been good conversation. Hopefully everyone continues to enjoy this great amp/dac.


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> I am probably the first, but just sold my NFB-12. It's been good conversation. Hopefully everyone continues to enjoy this great amp/dac.


 

 Probably not the first but I'm sure you're one of them.  I just got my NFB-11 today and I'm thinking of selling off my NFB-12 as well.   The differences are pretty much as Audio-GD states so it really boils down to how you like your music presented.


----------



## Moving Air

I believe wolfson has good DAC chips....won't say that the NFB-12 is not good.  Diff. people have different expectations and requirements....as I'm not using the module for headphone purpose...instead using it for my music system....Thus, my expectation is clean/pure signal path quality, as flat/wide a freq. response as possible,...no noise and minimal intermodulation distortion...hopefully the NFB-11 can deliver it.
   
  Thanks a lot for telling me that NFB-11 is available....I have just changed the order with Kingwa.   ))  Keep the fire burning for headfi.....really cool to meet people like you ....the pursuit for good sound quality....
   
   
  ps: someone ask about freq.roll off, this link might help with your understanding...
   
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/131062.html


----------



## BrianMendoza

Hey guys, quick question... I bought an NFB12 to use as a DAC for my Concerto until I can afford a StageDAC. Anyways, I've read a couple post and saw a couple graphs showing the NFB12 having some treble roll off.
   
  This may sound dumb, but do the results of those charts also represent the DAC out? If it only matters to those using the NFB-12 as both a DAC & an amp, than it won't be a worry for me, because I only plan on using my NFB-12 as a DAC.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> Hey guys, quick question... I bought an NFB12 to use as a DAC for my Concerto until I can afford a StageDAC. Anyways, I've read a couple post and saw a couple graphs showing the NFB12 having some treble roll off.
> 
> This may sound dumb, but do the results of those charts also represent the DAC out? If it only matters to those using the NFB-12 as both a DAC & an amp, than it won't be a worry for me, because I only plan on using my NFB-12 as a DAC.


 

  
  It will effect the DAC out as well. It's very minor (less than -2dB for the audible range), but it does give the DAC a slightly warm bias because of it.
   
  Audio-GD reintroduced the NFB-11 (No USB), so if you haven't been shipped your order yet you could always have them change it, it might have better synergy with the LCD-2 as well, based off how many LCD-2 users have enjoyed the NFB-10ES with it.


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


> It will effect the DAC out as well. It's very minor (less than -2dB for the audible range), but it does give the DAC a slightly warm bias because of it.
> 
> Audio-GD reintroduced the NFB-11 (No USB), so if you haven't been shipped your order yet you could always have them change it, it might have better synergy with the LCD-2 as well, based off how many LCD-2 users have enjoyed the NFB-10ES with it.


 

 Oh ok. Thanks for the quick reply btw! I actually just bought mine from another member, and it'll be in the mail tomorrow.
   
  I guess as long as it's satisfactory as a DAC, my real intention for it is just to keep me satisfied until I can save up some more and go for a StageDAC or something along those lines.
   
  And maybe the warmth will be a good thing...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I just recently went from a Mapletree Ear HD+ to the Concerto, and immediately felt the loss of tube warmth. I can't say whether I miss it or not yet, but maybe the NFB-12's warmth will be a good medium.


----------



## dw1narso

@Elanzer: thanks a lot for very thorough tests... 
   
  Things actually seems more complicated but also become clearer at certain extend...
   
  In my case, I go ahead and convert and upsample Supercurio's file, using R8Brain, to produce fixed 16-bit 44KHz WAV file and 16-bit-48KHz WAV file.
   
  Here are the files: http://www.sendspace.com/file/pjsofp (48KHz) and http://www.sendspace.com/file/i1o7zp (44KHz)
   
  What I hear on my PC is still the same, whether I play the file on foobar or load it on Audacity... 44KHz introduced "noise" , while 48KHz sounded clean.
   
  Now, here is the interresting part. I upload those files to my BlackBerry (BB) phone... and played both file. Guest what... I got the reverse result!!! the 44KHz sounded clean while the noise now appear on the 48KHz file.
   
  I try to play music with lots of high frequency content (like cymbals) but I never experience the same problem as the Supercurio's udial.wav file.
   
  So, the possibilities now are:

 There's a problem on my PC driver/codec/Conexant chip that make it noisy when handling 44.1KHz sample rate.
 My BB actually cannot handle sample rate higher than 44.1KHz, but can handle 44.1KHz rate properly
 Would it be possible that there's a problem with Supercurio's PC soundcard's chip that outputing SPDI/F signal? (notice that he experience the same problem with Windows and Linux)
 Would it be possible that there's a problem on the WM8805 (or WM8741) inherited issue or implementation issue on NFB-12 when receive the 44.1KHz stream
 There's something wrong on Supercurio's udial.wav file.... maybe he can update us, how did he get/create this file? downsample from a file with higher sample rate? (now, there's possibility that there is anti-aliasing error/noise during the process...)
   
  @Elanzer: if you don't mind, could you download both files on my link and tried them on your Cowon D2 and Nokia? Just for curiosity, whether these two devices can accept the 48KHz rate properly...


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > It will effect the DAC out as well. It's very minor (less than -2dB for the audible range), but it does give the DAC a slightly warm bias because of it.
> ...


 

 Signature wise, IMO, LCD-2 would be benefited from ESS chip character...


----------



## Audiophil

checked both signals with:
  Dell D630 - foobar 1.1 - asio4all -usb - iBasso Viper - Beyer DT880studio
   
  Both are sounding identical, no obvious distortion.
  But when i had a look at foobar's spec-analyzer view I recognized in the second half of both signal a loud peak @20kHz (-20 dB). The normal signal is only about -40 dB. But again, on both. Maybe some decoders have problems with this signals...


----------



## madwolf

udial is a file that consists of 3 sine tone 
  2 at the lower frequency much like a tone of a tone dial tone. Everyone would not have problem hearing this 
  the other tone is a 19khz tone which is at least 4 times the amplitude. 
   
  most people would hear the tone at the lower frequency but the 19Khz would be heard at a very soft note prompting user to up the volume.
  This kind of high frequency is very rare in real life, but is very harmful to your speaker or headphone.
  If the amplifier is clipping it could generate lots of harmful harmonics at high power which might burn your tweeter and yet people might think it is soft
  because it is at the limit of human hearing ability.
   
  So if you want to try this tone use a cheap headphone or speaker.  
   
  Supercurio is refering to a reflection of the tone cause by a "musical" configuration of the NFB-12. 
  Maybe the diagram from him is a bit hard to understand 
  I did a waterfall using the NFB12 with it original configuration, which I feel is more conventional way of presentation.   
   

   
  The portion that in red, is the "extra" tone that is generated by the NFB12
  I do not think any human is able to hear the difference between the 19K tone and the 23 K tone especially when it is play together. 
  If you did you must have lots of ear training listening to sine waves. 
  And since the 'extra' is outside the normal 20khz most standard test does not show it. 
   
  It is hard enough to hear a tone at 19Khz. But you should be pick it up with any decent system. 
  Since the 19K tone is in Udial, it is not surprising you heard something on most system. 
   
  If you are using 48Khz the reflection is further up at about 30K since Nyquist frequency is push to 24K. 
  (this is a guess as I have yet to test this out)
   
  Attach is the waterfall diagram of udial with Pin22 connected to ground (0 volts) which is the setting as written on the datasheet of the 8741 
   

   
   
  Next up I might try different setting for the capacitor mod as recommended by KingWa. He said NFB12 comes with 470pf and NFB11 comes with 100pf. 
   
  Over the past few days/week I did learn a great deal about Amplifier, DAC design, apodizing filter. Not forgetting RMAA test and waterfall, The lesson alone is worth the price of the NFB12.


----------



## Audiophil

Great, madwolf, thanks!
  yes, these diagrams I'm familiar with.
  And I agree 100% regarding the learning effect you mentioned.
  Personally I raised the question to kingwa to go alternativly for the NFB-11 plus the DI (in order to avoid jitter which can harm the NFB-11).
  We'll see...


----------



## holland

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> Next up I might try different setting for the capacitor mod as recommended by KingWa. He said NFB12 comes with 470pf and NFB11 comes with 100pf.
> Over the past few days/week I did learn a great deal about Amplifier, DAC design, apodizing filter. Not forgetting RMAA test and waterfall, The lesson alone is worth the price of the NFB12.


 


  I honestly would not worry about the 470pF too much.  It was being used to say that the analog filter roll-off causes the warm sound, but the fact is the digital filter dominates.  If you put pin 4 of the WM8741 into brickwall mode (response 3 if I recall correctly) you will see the effect of the analog filter.  Based on the 192kHz sampling rate graphs, the effect is minimal. 
   
  It would be nice, however, to know what the corner frequency is with the 470pF capacitor.


----------



## Passingthrough

I've had the NFB-12 for a while now (mine was in the first batch produced) and thought I'd post an update that I continue to be very happy with it.
   
  I specifically wanted a DAC/amp with a smoother, lush sound and I feel that the NFB-12 delivers for me in that regard.  This was desirable for me for non-fatiguing listening, especially since some of my music collection may be of lesser quality.  I should mention that I also enjoy the Valab NOS DAC in our living room system, so I may enjoy a smooth sound signature more than some inclined to participate on this sort of forum would.  Anyway, I think that for real world listening, especially to music of mixed quality, the NFB-12 is excellent.  It offers a bit more resolution than the Valab NOS while still being forgiving and smooth and has many more features (head amp, pre-amp) for the exact same low price as the Valab.
   
  Regarding amp use, I brought my M50's home from my office to use after reading Slaughter's comments on the pairing.  I agree that the M50 is really excellent with the NFB-12.  I'll be keeping them plugged into the NFB-12 from now on.  My HD580's sound a bit thin in comparision.  Side note: My personal opinion is that a direct comparison between M50 and HD580 using a wide variety of music will nearly always favor the M50's due to their wider frequency range (they provide significantly more bass).  Or maybe I'm just a basshead and never realized it.
   
  Thanks to Kingwa for a really nice piece of gear at a great price.


----------



## JaMo

Thank You "passingthrough" for sharing.
   
  It's good to hear that Your NFB-12 works as intended.. and that You're pleased with it over time. I look forward to get mine.
   
  /Jan


----------



## bhaishaki

Hi Kingwa
   
  Do you mean to say that even NFB-2 has similar high freq roll-off as NFB-12? Does it also use default 2X oversampling rate?
   
  You have said the sound quality level is same as Sparrow or Fun. Since NFB -12 is designed with a different sound flavour, how different is the sound flavour different from Fun/Sparrow?
   
  I'm asking this question because Sparrow-B and Fun-B are at the same price point(nearly) as NFB-12, it would be worth knowing the difference in sound quality/flavour other than the feature difference between them.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





kingwa said:


> In our NFB11 page we always post the different sonice between NFB11 and NFB12.
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB11/NFB11EN.htm
> 
> English is not our mother tongue maybe we can't exact explain the sonic flavors.
> ...


----------



## Jupe

I thought I would follow Passingthrough's example and update my experience with the NFB-12. With so much speculation about such an (IMO) insignificant amount of noise/artifacts, I hope most of the readers and potential buyers aren't scared off thinking that the NFB-12 might be defected. Even I, a relative newcomer to the audiophile world, can hear and say this DAC/amp isn't neutral, but it performance is excellent, especially for the current asking price.
   
  Most of my music would be considered electronica, alternative rock, and/or some form of dub/trance. Bands like Deadmau5, Ratatat, Muse, Gorillaz, Shpongle, and Ott. I'm listening to the NFB-12 with my M50's, and just like everyone else has said, they make a great pairing. Very energetic and encompassing, which is what I love for creating art.
   
  The biggest trait people mentioned with first impressions was the boomy bass. It was a bit much to begin with, but I've found that it has been significantly tamed, tightened, and pushed back with time--though I feel high gain presents more punch by comparison. The soundstage has opened up a bit, letting me hear some of the faintest reverbs and other audio effects that I never noticed before, even in music I listen to daily. While the NFB-12 is pretty forgiving, I feel like I'm not getting the most out of its immersion and detail unless I'm listening to a lossless file. I'm sure that's universal, but it's worth mentioning for any other newcomers.
   
  If it matters to anyone, I haven't found the NFB-12 to get very hot, unless I've been using it for a full day. Even at its hottest, it hasn't been uncomfortably hot, and hasn't affected my improv-sticky tack feet. Volume (I would say power, but I don't have any high-impedance phone to test) is impressive. For a while I didn't realize that the ASIO driver I'm using resets the Windows-controlled volume on occasion, but now that everything is back to where it should be I feel no need to turn the knob past 9o'clock on low gain, and even that's pushing it for me. On high gain, I can't go past 8o'clock for more than a minute or two. I noticed that mine has some channel distortion at extremely low volumes--it's barely audible on low gain, and on high gain it sounds as if the right channel is louder than the left, but switches depending on the exact knob placement (between 6 and 7). I don't know if this is regular or not, but I never have the knob turned all the way down, so it's never been an issue while listening to music.


----------



## mtntrance

Just wanted to chime in that I switched from the NFB-11 to NFB-12 primarily due to price point but I am also replacing a DAC19-DSP1 and C-2 with a NFB-1 WM and Phoenix to ultimately drive LCD-2s balanced.  What helped me decide on the Wolfson chip versus the Sabre was Kingwa telling me that the sound signature of the Wolfson was closer to the Reference series DACs and the DAC 19 that uses the 1704 chip.  I llike that sound signature.


----------



## vinay

How does the NFB-12 compare to FUN?
   
  All this talk about high roll off , has got me confused..
  I would actually prefer neutral sound, but since not all my music files are FLAC i decided to go for the NFB-12..  But after all this i am wondering if i should go for the NFB-11..
   
  A n00b question- If i have music files of 128kbps bitrate is it wise to chose NFB-11?


----------



## Carlsan

Quote: 





> A n00b question- If i have music files of 128kbps bitrate is it wise to chose NFB-11?


 
   
  Anything under 192 (except perhaps 192 variable) will not play well with a decent pair of headphones or for that matter, even coming out of a good quality mp3 player.
   
  With  really top end headphones/amp, any mp3 will not sound that good at all, especially compared to a lossless format, such as flac.
   
  To answer your question, depends a lot on the headphones you will be planning on using but any good amp, nfb-11 included,  will show low bitrate mp3's in a negative way.


----------



## vinay

Quote: 





carlsan said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Currently i am using ATh-A700..


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *madwolf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The 3 sound signature could be set by using different input data rate.
> Maybe using 44 is the "smooth musical" sound flavor
> ...


 
   
  Again, I'm new to DAC's so I was hoping someone could help me understand this a little bit more. When it comes to the NFB-12, how do you choose which input data rate to use?
   
  Is it as simple as USB=44, Coax=96 and Opt=192?
   
  If this sounds condescending at all, I am really not trying to be. I just really have no clue. and I'm a complete newb in the DAC world...


----------



## tarnishedhalo

Quote: 





			
				vinay said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> A n00b question- If i have music files of 128kbps bitrate is it wise to chose NFB-11?


 
   
  You might want to start upgrading from those 128 files and going for flac. I had to do it with my setup, carlsan is right I could hear a HUGE difference in sound quality, especially clarity of voices, instruments, and bass impact in low bit rate files compared to flac.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





vinay said:


> A n00b question- If i have music files of 128kbps bitrate is it wise to chose NFB-11?


 

 with a fixed bit rate, you need at least 256Kbps bitrate. Going up from there would not easily discernible, unless on some recording that highlight the difference quite strongly. Of course having 320Kbps MP3 or even FLAC or APE would be better and make it ready for future. But on general recordings, 256KVBR would be difficult to differentiate to 320K fixed bit rate already.
   
  Personally, I'll choose 192Kbps (or even 128Kbps) MP3/OGG of excellently mastered records anytime VS FLACs of badly mastered records...
   
  For example you will not get better sound of Celine Dion records by going from 128Kbps to FLAC. In fact, 128Kbps may make them more listenable... Pity her, such a great artist but badly produced records...
   
  And at the other opposite example is go to www.mapleshaderecords.com, they share lots of their recordings on 128Kbps rate that you can download freely http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/main/freemp3s.php. And, be surprised to hear how good 128Kbps file can be.


----------



## BrianMendoza

Can anyone help me with my situation? (post 672)


----------



## dw1narso

Thanks for clearer explanation Madwolf...
   
  Your graph seems to show nothing wrong on NFB-12.
   
  While I think Conexant on my PC (the chip or the driver) is actually struggling to upsample 44.1Khz to 48Khz. and I think that's where the noise coming from.
   
  Curious question now... your CSD graph of NFB-12 looks s clean between 2K to 19K, while supercurio's different graph show an affected lower than 19Khz spectrum (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/480#post_7247689). Any idea?


----------



## thuantran

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> For example you will not get better sound of Celine Dion records by going from 128Kbps to FLAC. In fact, 128Kbps may make them more listenable... Pity her, such a great artist but badly produced records...


 
  Listen to Loreena McKennitt then, e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw_cZGrVFqw .


----------



## BrianMendoza

>


 
  Quote:



> Originally Posted by *madwolf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...





   

  Again, I'm new to DAC's so I was hoping someone could help me understand this a little bit more. When it comes to the NFB-12, how do you choose which input data rate to use?

   

  Is it as simple as USB=44, Coax=96 and Opt=192?

   

  If this sounds condescending at all, I am really not trying to be. I just really have no clue. and I'm a complete newb in the DAC world...

   

  I've checked all my mp3 files (@320kbps) and even my FLAC files and they are all 44.1khz sample rate, is this what I'm supposed to be looking for?


----------



## vpsporb

Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> >
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  I'm Wondering the same myself. 
  I have the NFB-11, using the USB input, I switched between 16/44 and 24/96 while listening to the same track. I think the 16/44 sounds better, slightly more open, dynamic sounding. While the 24/96 sounding slightly less so, and compressed-ish? 
  I just set the Tenor USB to 16/44 because it sounded better to me. 
  I have not tried the Other inputs yet.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *madwolf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 It's generally within your OS, but I'm assuming you're using OSX so I don't know where you would adjust that, but in Windows you just go into the properties for playback devices, double click whatever output device you're using (ie: optical, USB), and on the advanced tab you set the output sample rate.
   
  But the DAC will resample to 192khz regardless. what we're talking about here is feeding the DAC a pre-resampled 96-192khz signal instead of 44khz before it gets to the DAC, which has different effects than the resampler built into the NFB-12.


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


vpsporb said:


> I'm Wondering the same myself.
> I have the NFB-11, using the USB input, I switched between 16/44 and 24/96 while listening to the same track. I think the 16/44 sounds better, slightly more open, dynamic sounding. While the 24/96 sounding slightly less so, and compressed-ish?
> I just set the Tenor USB to 16/44 because it sounded better to me.
> I have not tried the Other inputs yet.


 

 You're even further ahead than me man... I don't know how to "switch" between these different rates. How are you determining which rate you are using?


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *madwolf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 It's generally within your OS, but I'm assuming you're using OSX so I don't know where you would adjust that, but in Windows you just go into the properties for playback devices, double click whatever output device you're using (ie: optical, USB), and on the advanced tab you set the output sample rate. This doesn't exactly enable any sort of resampling, it just sets an "up to" basis AFAIK, enabling you to use the higher sample rates.
   
  But the DAC will resample to 192khz regardless internally. What we're talking about here is feeding the DAC a pre-resampled 96-192khz signal instead of 44khz before it gets to the DAC, which has different effects than the resampler built into the NFB-12.


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


elanzer said:


> It's generally within your OS, but I'm assuming you're using OSX so I don't know where you would adjust that, but in Windows you just go into the properties for playback devices, double click whatever output device you're using (ie: optical, USB), and on the advanced tab you set the output sample rate.
> 
> But the DAC will resample to 192khz regardless. what we're talking about here is feeding the DAC a pre-resampled 96-192khz signal instead of 44khz before it gets to the DAC, which has different effects than the resampler built into the NFB-12.


 

 OH OK, I see now. 
   
  Another dumb question... How are you able to pre-resample the signal before sending it? And is this what MadWolf was saying earlier, where if you resample to 192 before having the DAC resample it, you will get a "neutral" sound, and if you don't re-sample it, leaving it at 44khz, you'll get "smooth musical" sound?


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





thuantran said:


> Listen to Loreena McKennitt then, e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw_cZGrVFqw .


 

 That is one of my favourate song 
   

  
  Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> Curious question now... your CSD graph of NFB-12 looks s clean between 2K to 19K, while supercurio's different graph show an affected lower than 19Khz spectrum (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/480#post_7247689). Any idea?


 
   
  The amplitude on Supercurio's graph is represented by color.  The dark blue that you see between 2k and 19K are about -90db. 
  At -90db, it most likely noise. 
   
  Yes he does have very sensitive equipment. 
   
   Internally the NFB12 does not upsample. There are no ASRC (Asynchronous Sample Rate Converter) chip inside.


----------



## BrianMendoza

madwolf, when you said earlier. that:
  44khz = smooth and musical
  96khz = musical and neutral
  192khz = neutral
   
  Since I'm using iTunes, am I only really stuck using 44khz? Unless I had an app that can upsample?
   
  I know with the import settings you can choose a sample rate up to 48khz, but without an application, I'm pretty much stuck between 44.1khz and 48khz?


----------



## Currawong

A CD has a sample rate of 44.1 kHz. Assuming all your music is from CDs, you should import it with Error Correction switched on into AIFF or Apple Lossless files. This way you wont lose any data.  AAC and MP3 are both lossy formats that strip music data to compress the file. See here: http://www.head-fi.org/wiki/a-quick-guide-to-lossless-versus-lossy-music-files
   
  On your Mac, there is a piece of software for changing the system audio settings called Audio Midi Set-up. It's in the Utilities folder inside the Applications folder. Ideally, if all your music is from CDs, you should leave the settings for the device you are outputting to at 44.1 kHz / 16-bit.  It is possible to set it to send out higher, such as 92 kHz / 24 bit.   It results in Mac OS X up-sampling the music by adding data where none exists. It's rather like the different ways fonts are smoothed on screen by adding half-pixels (grey pixels between the black pixels of a letter and the white background) but depends on so many factors about the software that is doing it and the set-up of the DAC that it's probably simpler just to experiment and see if you notice any difference. Sometimes you get a slightly smoother sound with up-sampling and sometimes you get no difference.


----------



## vrln

If you have access to a Windows computer or maybe dual boot, check out EAC (Exact Audio Copy): http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/
   
  It´s considered by many to be the best CD ripper software out there, and it´s free too. Highly recommended. I used it for all my FLAC´s.


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


currawong said:


> A CD has a sample rate of 44.1 kHz. Assuming all your music is from CDs, you should import it with Error Correction switched on into AIFF or Apple Lossless files. This way you wont lose any data.  AAC and MP3 are both lossy formats that strip music data to compress the file. See here: http://www.head-fi.org/wiki/a-quick-guide-to-lossless-versus-lossy-music-files
> 
> On your Mac, there is a piece of software for changing the system audio settings called Audio Midi Set-up. It's in the Utilities folder inside the Applications folder. Ideally, if all your music is from CDs, you should leave the settings for the device you are outputting to at 44.1 kHz / 16-bit.  It is possible to set it to send out higher, such as 92 kHz / 24 bit.   It results in Mac OS X up-sampling the music by adding data where none exists. It's rather like the different ways fonts are smoothed on screen by adding half-pixels (grey pixels between the black pixels of a letter and the white background) but depends on so many factors about the software that is doing it and the set-up of the DAC that it's probably simpler just to experiment and see if you notice any difference. Sometimes you get a slightly smoother sound with up-sampling and sometimes you get no difference.


 
   
  AHHH, that sounds a lot more understandable. 
   
  In the case of the NFB-12 though, since I'm using iTunes, the best situation would probably be to go with 16/44 since that is the rate it was imported at?
   
  And if even CD's are encoded with 44.1khz, what kind of audio is encoded at 192khz?


----------



## vrln

There are a few online stores specialising in high resolution audio. Check https://www.hdtracks.com, that´s probably the most known one. They sell 24bit/92kHz music at least. Be warned though, the files are pretty big


----------



## BrianMendoza

Cool. I'm gunna check that out right now.
   
  And hey, thanks for all the help everyone! And for not bashing all my newb-to-DAC questions.


----------



## Greg121986

Regarding the artifacts above the 20Khz point, isn't this what you want a DAC chip to do? If it is creating artifacts, isn't it pushing them into the higher frequency realm so you won't be able to hear them? The fact that they are there in the tests shows that it is doing its job appropriately.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





thuantran said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Actually I like Katie Melua, Ingrid Michaelson, and Patricia Barber (I prefer artists with strong musical character) better than Celine Dion (more pop-ish songs), but still she is a good artist...

 Hear about Loreena... but never try listen her music... will try it for sure..


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





madwolf said:


> The amplitude on Supercurio's graph is represented by color.  The dark blue that you see between 2k and 19K are about -90db.
> At -90db, it most likely noise.
> 
> Yes he does have very sensitive equipment.
> ...


 

  I see, got it now... Supercurio's graph is new to me...


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





greg121986 said:


> Regarding the artifacts above the 20Khz point, isn't this what you want a DAC chip to do? If it is creating artifacts, isn't it pushing them into the higher frequency realm so you won't be able to hear them? The fact that they are there in the tests shows that it is doing its job appropriately.


 


 If the music data contain the information above 20KHz and the DAC can play it, that's acceptable, The problem is, according Supercurio (his post here http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/480#post_7247689) he found that the information above 20KHz is artificially created by the unit. And not only above 20KHz, even going down to the range between 10-20KHz.
   
  But, as Madwolf just told me (us), that added information should not really be matter, they are -90db and lower. which basically very-ver low  (9x weaker) compared to the original signal..


----------



## holland

Nyquist frequency
Nyquist rate
Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem
   
  If you look at madwolf's waterfall plots you will see the "noise" is clearly above the nyquist frequency, and are clearly aliasing artifacts.
   
  I suspect if the WM8741 was put into 44.1kHz oversampling rate, with slow roll-off in the digital filter, there wouldn't be many complaints, but that is only achievable in software mode.  What spurred the discussion was supercurio noting a fatiguing effect, even with the roll-off.


----------



## Greg121986

Ok that was helpful, thanks. I hope I will be happy with the NFB-12. I refused the offer of an NFB-11 because it won't be available until March and it would be $72 more than what I already paid for the NFB-12. I don't really want to (mostly I cannot) pay more money. I also cannot stand to wait any longer than I have to. It has already been over a month since I ordered.
  Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## powerlifter450

I just finished ordering the NFB-12 from Pacaficaudio. I have the E-MU 0204 and couldn't resist the upgrade. I'll sell the E-MU once the 12 arrives to help offset costs. I'm curious to se how the NFB-12 will incorporate into my Schiit Asgard and Denon 5k. If I like the Denons with everything I'm gonna sell off my Pro 900s. I digress, anyway I can't wait for the nfb-12 to arrive.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> If the music data contain the information above 20KHz and the DAC can play it, that's acceptable, The problem is, according Supercurio (his post here http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/480#post_7247689) he found that the information above 20KHz is artificially created by the unit. And not only above 20KHz, even going down to the range between 10-20KHz.
> But, as Madwolf just told me (us), that added information should not really be matter, they are -90db and lower. which basically very-ver low  (9x weaker) compared to the original signal..


 

 Actually, that's not true.  It's louder than that.  The primary is around -25dB to -30dB or so.  The reflections are around -75dB or so.  It's about a 45dB-55dB variation.  It's not 90dB.


----------



## movi

so am i understanding this correctly? i can (effectively) change the character of the NFB-12 slightly by upsampling all my music?


----------



## olor1n

currawong said:


> A CD has a sample rate of 44.1 kHz. Assuming all your music is from CDs, you should import it with Error Correction switched on into AIFF or Apple Lossless files. This way you wont lose any data.  AAC and MP3 are both lossy formats that strip music data to compress the file. See here: http://www.head-fi.org/wiki/a-quick-guide-to-lossless-versus-lossy-music-files
> 
> On your Mac, there is a piece of software for changing the system audio settings called Audio Midi Set-up. It's in the Utilities folder inside the Applications folder. Ideally, if all your music is from CDs, you should leave the settings for the device you are outputting to at 44.1 kHz / 16-bit.  It is possible to set it to send out higher, such as 92 kHz / 24 bit.   It results in Mac OS X up-sampling the music by adding data where none exists. It's rather like the different ways fonts are smoothed on screen by adding half-pixels (grey pixels between the black pixels of a letter and the white background) but depends on so many factors about the software that is doing it and the set-up of the DAC that it's probably simpler just to experiment and see if you notice any difference. Sometimes you get a slightly smoother sound with up-sampling and sometimes you get no difference.




Most of my music is 44.1/16 alac. I have the WM8741 in my Fun and have my Macbook connected via optical (DIR9001). I understand you can't make something from nothing, but when I set Audio Midi Setup to output 96/24 there is no affect on the sound signature other than a subtle widening of the soundstage through my HD650.

This is barely noticeable on most tracks but it is very apparent to me on "Our Lives" by Ou Est Le Swimming Pool. This song starts with a low reverberated synth drone and the soundstage is huge through the HD650 when set to 92/24. It may be an artificial effect but I feel it adds to the presentation when it's noticeable on certain tracks, so I've decided to set the output at that rate.

I don't fully understand the technicalities being discussed here, but are the criticisms in the last few pages specifically towards the WM8741 implementation in the NFB-12, or is it highlighting issues with the chip itself? On one hand there seems to be a discussion about artifacts beyond 20khz. If that's what you guys are focusing on then that is nitpicking of absurd proportions. Are you even certain of the source of the artifacts? The other criticisms of roll off are petulant and disrespectful imo. Kingwa has clearly stated things were done by design. You weren't misled into buying a Ferrari to only get a push bike. You paid for budget entry level gear. It's gear that others are reporting as great value, presenting good sound in real world terms. The sense of entitlement displayed by some here is mind boggling, and Kingwa should be concerned about how these discussions may be perceived by those who don't fully understand what's being debated.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> I don't fully understand the technicalities being discussed here, but are the criticisms in the last few pages specifically towards the WM8741 implementation in the NFB-12, or is it highlighting issues with the chip itself? On one hand there seems to be a discussion about artifacts beyond 20khz. If that's what you guys are focusing on then that is nitpicking of absurd proportions. Are you even certain of the source of the artifacts?


 


  Neither.  It's more a discussion, in general now, about digital filtering.  Some folk are trying to understand what all the pictures mean, and what it means for the NFB-12.  It's not nitpicking, people are just trying to understand.  Some of the artifacts are due to putting the DAC into 2x oversampling mode (by design), and feeding it a 44.1kHz/48kHz stream instead of an upsampled stream.  That's just pretty standard with any DAC that is configured that way, or a NOS DAC.  Higher oversampling and/or upsampling would give less errors on the digital side.
   
  I understand that Audio-GD was looking for a slow roll-off mode, which is not really available on the WM8741 in hardware mode, without lowering the amount of oversampling.  But by doing so, the WM8741 won't perform to it's published specs, again this is by design.  On the other side, chips like the PCM1794 can have slow roll-off with full oversampling.
   
  You have to understand that this discussion was spurred because one user reported being fatigued by the sound, even though it was warm and soft on the top.  Further analysis revealed what you see in the last 30 pages or so.
   
   
  Quote: 





> The other criticisms of roll off are petulant and disrespectful imo. Kingwa has clearly stated things were done by design. You weren't misled into buying a Ferrari to only get a push bike. You paid for budget entry level gear. It's gear that others are reporting as great value, presenting good sound in real world terms. The sense of entitlement displayed by some here is mind boggling, and if I were in any way associated with AGD I'd be concerned about how these discussions may be perceived by those who don't fully understand what's being debated.


 
   
  This is not a sponsored thread.  It is a thread about the NFB-12 from members.  Any such criticisms and follow on discussions are fair, as your criticism is fair.  This is not a thread to pander for or against Audio-GD.
   
  If this were a thread about Ferraris, any criticisms and discussions are fair, albeit off-topic.  This is a discussion board, and opinions on many levels are shared.  If it was a thread paid for by Ferrari, then yes, you have a point pertaining to "entitlement".  Being concerned about how the information is perceived is a fair assessment, but it is the internet, and anyone can blog about anything.  That is today's world, love it and hate it.
   
  In all honesty, for about $10 more, this discussion would never have taken place.  2 switches to control oversampling rate, and the hardware filter mode is all that's really needed to appease everybody, and the panel drilling and printing and some wire.  The switches themselves are about $1 each.  Since the WM8741 is running in hardware mode, and not microcontroller controlled, it's just as simple as manipulating 2 tri-state pins.  The discussion would have then focused on "which configuration is better".
   
  Yes, it really is as simple as that.  It is worth buying if the WM8741 is your target, with mods you can get "the most" out of this basic configuration.
   
  FWIW, expensive DACs and CDPs do not use the WM8741/WM8742 in hardware mode.


----------



## olor1n

Very informative response holland. I've always appreciated your input in this and other threads. Thanks.

Would the subjectively "better" soundstage presentation I perceive when feeding my Fun (WM8741) a 92/44 signal (Mac OS upsampling of native 44.1/16) be related to what's being discussed here?


----------



## mtntrance

Yikes I got a NFB 1 WM and NFB-12 on order and will be feeding 44.1/16 from a mac.  Should I have gone with the Sabre?


----------



## holland

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> Yikes I got a NFB 1 WM and NFB-12 on order and will be feeding 44.1/16 from a mac.  Should I have gone with the Sabre?


 


  Not necessarily.  If you like the NFB-1WM, I'd bet the NFB-12 has similar tone, and the exact same configuration.  The output stage is slightly different (ACSS->dual FETs instead of the BJT diamond buffer), which begs the question why did you order something so similar?  Personally, I would go for the Sabre for a different flavor.  I've got a dual WM8741 DAC myself (DIY) with opamp line drivers, but I also have a NFB-12 on order.  I also am considering going to NFB-11.  I ordered because I was curious about the output stage (ACSS->Diamond buffer), but I'm not sure I care much anymore.  I don't have the ES9018, so it would be an addition to my stable of DACs, and my first purchase in about 3 years.  The NFB-11 can't do USB reliably, and it has been removed from the reissue.
   
  If you know a DIYer you can ask for some switches or jumpers, with you paying of course.  There's not much room, but you may be able to stick a perfboard on top of the capacitors, and use jumpers to tweak the settings.  This will, of course, void warranty.


----------



## holland

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Very informative response holland. I've always appreciated your input in this and other threads. Thanks.
> 
> Would the subjectively "better" soundstage presentation I perceive when feeding my Fun (WM8741) a 92/44 signal (Mac OS upsampling of native 44.1/16) be related to what's being discussed here?


 

 You're very welcome.
   
  Subjectively, yes.  When you start to upsample, the upper frequencies will bloom a bit, and the midrange comes up very slightly (< 1dB), and reflections drop.  To my ears, the soundstage becomes more precise.  Some sounds get a little lost otherwise.
   
  Note, I do not have a NFB-12 yet, but I have a DIY dual WM8741 in hardware mode with switches, so I can configure on the fly and listen on the fly.
   
  FWIW, I know Kingwa chose the linear phase filter, but I prefer the minimum phase filters.  I think it's more natural sounding, not as edgy.  I have my dual WM8741 configured this way right now.  The change is subtle, as both use the very wide slow roll-off in 44.1kHz, but you can hear the difference minimum phase makes on vocals and string instruments.  IMO, of course.  I will say the roll-off is a bit too much for me, personally, so I am upsampling to 96kHz on my computer in this configuration.


----------



## mtntrance

I need to write with increased clarity and be specific.  What I have is a DAC-19 DSP-1 w/C-2 and on order is a NFB-1 WM and NFB-12.  I would get a Ref series DAC if they were still available at a lower price point.  My goal is to drive LCD-2s with a Phoenix.  Thanks.


----------



## bhaishaki

Quote: 





holland said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Is the WM8741 configured the same way in NFB - 3, the hardware mode? or does NFB -3 cures the problems with the NFB - 12? It is the next price level upgrade/change I could think of having already ordered NFB-12.


----------



## Cankin

Regarding NFB-11, I've read that the 9018 chips have problem with I2S input from USB so Audio GD removed USB input but wouldn't it be better to have the USB receiver output SPDIF?

BTW, I switched my order to NFB-11 and ordered Digital Interface as well. I'm not worrying about the roll off on NFB-12 but since I wanted NFB-11 origionally but it was not available to order, but now it is available again...


----------



## vinay

How does sound stage on NFB-11 compare to NFB-12??


----------



## bhaishaki

I have ordered NFB - 12 during late January and waiting for the delivery. Would it be worth to change the order to Sparrow or Fun-B? I cannot go over my budget of NFB-12 much. I want a USB input, so cannot go for a NFB -11, not keen with DI either and I need a smoother sound for my DT880/600. Not sure how NFB-11would go with it. Would Sparrow or a Fun -B be better choice? Thanks.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





bhaishaki said:


> I have ordered NFB - 12 during late January and waiting for the delivery. Would it be worth to change the order to Sparrow or Fun-B? I cannot go over my budget of NFB-12 much. I want a USB input, so cannot go for a NFB -11, not keen with DI either and I need a smoother sound for my DT880/600. Not sure how NFB-11would go with it. Would Sparrow or a Fun -B be better choice? Thanks.


 

 I have both the Sparrow with WM8741 and NFB-12, for the T1 and DT990 I prefer using the NFB-12 as a DAC/Amp since it's slightly smoother than the Sparrow. Since the T1 is basically a super-DT880 I think it will work well for you too.
   
  Don't let the discussion here bother you too much, it applies to many higher end dac units as well as, "reference" vs "musicality", the roll-off is minor and is what helps give the NFB-12 it's smoother characteristic. I listen to this thing atleast 10 hours per day, and I've yet to hear anything that sounds like artifacting, or experienced any sort of listening fatigue with this setup. Pretty sure I'll keep this setup for years to come, as I have zero qualms with it - everything is "just right".


----------



## bhaishaki

Thanks. That was helpful. For now I think I'm going to keep my NFB - 12 order and not change it.


----------



## pasgod

Quote: 





mtntrance said:


> I need to write with increased clarity and be specific.  What I have is a DAC-19 DSP-1 w/C-2 and on order is a NFB-1 WM and NFB-12.  I would get a Ref series DAC if they were still available at a lower price point.  My goal is to drive LCD-2s with a Phoenix.  Thanks.


 

 mtntrance,
   
  I am afraid that LCD 2 + Phoenix + NFB 1 WM could be a little dark sounding. LCD 2 does not need a DAC with a slight roll-off treble. If all the Wolfson Audio GD DACs have the same flavour, it could be too much with Phoenix and LCD 2. Have you received your Phoenix and LCD 2 ? If not, send a message to Vrin, he has a Phoenix and he had a LCD 2. He used them with a reference 7.


----------



## Kingwa

I have a wellknow USB soundcard , it had a lot RMAA test show it had excellent results can search in internet.
 Today I just for fun do a simple test by classis instruments and what a surprise to me, so I take the photos. The blue wire is original input signal and the yellow wire is the output signal of the soundcard.
  I won't say how sound of this soundcard .
 Read the RMAA test results of any gears I don't know is it sound bad or good.
 But read the classis waves test, most time I can know what sound it is, and what flavors it is.


----------



## vrln

That looks like Emu 0404 USB... I used to have that. Measures well in RMA I´ve read, but it was a total waste of money. Horrible sound quality. Harsh, pathetic soundstage, sibilant the list goes on. I quickly sold it and moved on. Oh and it had the most unstable windows only drivers I´ve ever had the "pleasure" of using.


----------



## dw1narso

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> I have a wellknow USB soundcard , it had a lot RMAA test show it had excellent results can search in internet.
> Today I just for fun do a simple test by classis instruments and what a surprise to me, so I take the photos. The blue wire is original input signal and the yellow wire is the output signal of the soundcard.
> I won't say how sound of this soundcard .
> Read the RMAA test results of any gears I don't know is it sound bad or good.
> But read the classis waves test, most time I can know what sound it is, and what flavors it is.


 


 and if you don't mind to share... what NFB-12 looks like on this instrument?


----------



## dw1narso

@ Holland: thanks for sharing your knowledge on your few posts on page 47, really, really enlightening!!! so informative and wise...
   
  I'm instantly becoming your fan...


----------



## BrianMendoza

Is it an awful idea to leave my NFB-12 on continuously?
   
  I have it on this amp/dac shelf that I made and it's a pain in the butt to get to that stupid power switch on the back when I want to turn it off.


----------



## j2kei

Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> Is it an awful idea to leave my NFB-12 on continuously?
> 
> I have it on this amp/dac shelf that I made and it's a pain in the butt to get to that stupid power switch on the back when I want to turn it off.


 

  
  i've had mine on for a weekend and it seems fine. i think that helps burn-in the amp/dac in fact. when i came back, it seems like the nfb-12 sounds even better than when i left. might just be a psychological thing tho haha


----------



## tim3320070

Run it with music for a week or so. Maybe just overnight, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Greg121986

Audio-gd products are already burned in for 100 hours before shipment. I'm quite sure any burn in process after that is only adding to the flavors of pixie dust.


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





greg121986 said:


> Audio-gd products are already burned in for 100 hours before shipment. I'm quite sure any burn in process after that is only adding to the flavors of pixie dust.


 

 Have you owned any Audio-GD gear before? It's quite telling that the vast majority of owners in the various threads report an apparent change after a few weeks. What gives your opinion weight over the first hand experiences of those members?


----------



## PUGSTUB

My NFB-10ES didn't change after burning it in for 2 weeks


----------



## olor1n

I was highly sceptical of the change my Audio-GD Fun would undergo, as reported by many in the dedicated thread. That pixie dust must've been something to make a believer of me.


----------



## BrianMendoza

Well I'm talking about leaving it on, constantly, even after burn-in.
   
  The shelf I have is a pain to reach and get to the back of. So I was hoping I'd be able to leave the NFB-12 on all the time.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





greg121986 said:


> Audio-gd products are already burned in for 100 hours before shipment. I'm quite sure any burn in process after that is only adding to the flavors of pixie dust.


 

 Believe me, I am a skeptic of most snake oil mantra here but his products do open up after a few hundred hours use- this has been confirmed by me with my 5 different AGD components. I don't know why, nor do I care why.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> Well I'm talking about leaving it on, constantly, even after burn-in.
> 
> The shelf I have is a pain to reach and get to the back of. So I was hoping I'd be able to leave the NFB-12 on all the time.


 
  Not very green my friend......


----------



## Danfl

what is your opinion on the fun vs NFB12?


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


tim3320070 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hahaha yes I know, but is it troublesome for the NFB-12? Will it fry it? I notice it doesn't really get to hot, so I was hoping it would be ok.


----------



## Greg121986

My roommate has had a FUN for about 6 weeks and it sounds just as excellent through HD650, HD595, and AKG K702 as it did when he first got it.


----------



## erjifan

I don't see anything wrong with DAC/Amp on all time. It actually saves you the warm-up time. Sorry, I'm not a green guy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





brianmendoza said:


> Quote:
> 
> Hahaha yes I know, but is it troublesome for the NFB-12? Will it fry it? I notice it doesn't really get to hot, so I was hoping it would be ok.


----------



## treaves

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> Have you owned any Audio-GD gear before? It's quite telling that the vast majority of owners in the various threads report an apparent change after a few weeks. What gives your opinion weight over the first hand experiences of those members?


 
   
  Um, science?


----------



## Currawong

treaves: Electrical components are affected by heat. This is well known.  Maybe if we had the time, inclination and gear to measure what goes on, we would, but numerous people on Audio-gd's Chinese forum and numerous people here noticed changes in the sound with various gear over the first couple of hundred hours of use. My limited expxeriments running the HDAMs without music, yet getting the same changes as someone else, suggested that, as they got hot, either the heat or the voltage running through them was causing changes to the transistors.


----------



## 2enty3

So I just read the last 5 pages of all this upsampling, oversampling, mumbo jumbo.
   
  All I can understand is that there are some frequencies above our audible range, and somehow, that is not good for us/the amp? Something about 24/44 or 96/24 messing up the upper range?
   
  If some one doesn't mind, can we have a simplified version of all of this? more specifically; What bitrate is best for use with NFB12?
  How does using a higher bitrate affect what we hear through the headphones?
  10Khz above audible range? Will I hear any significant difference in sound?
  How will this affect my listening experience?
   
  Thanks, I'm just somewhat skeptical, because this is my first Amp, and I really hope I didn't mess up.


----------



## mikop

I've been listening to my NFB-12 and it sounds great.  I am not good in describing sounds/review, but rest assure, despite the chatter on the technical voodoos we have here that seem to suggest that there is something ill with the NFB-12, there are many ppl out there quietly enjoying their new dac/amp.  I am sure you will enjoy them once you receive it, unless these discussions put some inkling of doubt and prevent you from enjoying them   Human mind is kind of weak.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *2enty3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> If some one doesn't mind, can we have a simplified version of all of this? more specifically; What bitrate is best for use with NFB12?
> How does using a higher bitrate affect what we hear through the headphones?
> 10Khz above audible range? Will I hear any significant difference in sound?
> How will this affect my listening experience?


 

 Very reasonable questions. I've had my NFB-12 for a few weeks, and while I'm not ready to write a full review yet, I will say that during the break-in period I've heard no discernible difference when feeding it content with different bit rates. I do not question the data results that some in this thread have found through their testing, but I do question how much of a practical effect it has on the listening experience the NFB-12 provides.
   
  BTW, my work rig is MacBook Pro > NFB-12 via toslink > Grado RS-1. I think the high frequency roll-off that the NFB-12 was _*specifically designed to provide*_ is an excellent match with my Grados, as long as you're OK with the RS-1s being tamed a bit (which I am -- at work, at least).
   
  Happy listening!


----------



## madwolf

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> I have a wellknow USB soundcard , it had a lot RMAA test show it had excellent results can search in internet.
> Today I just for fun do a simple test by classis instruments and what a surprise to me, so I take the photos. The blue wire is original input signal and the yellow wire is the output signal of the soundcard.
> I won't say how sound of this soundcard .
> Read the RMAA test results of any gears I don't know is it sound bad or good.
> But read the classis waves test, most time I can know what sound it is, and what flavors it is.


 

 Thanks for teaching me another method of reading the scope and a very interesting test.
  So I perform the same test, but now it is on the NFB12
   
  Using a computer to feed the 10K Square wave to NFB12 and measuring the output, 
  Using a 48K sampling frequency I got this graph

 The Square wave become a sine wave ......
   
  Next I test with a 96khz to generate a 10K square wave just like what you did

  The wave become round top and bottom
   
  Lastly I tried using 192K and this is what I got

  This looks very similar to the test pattern generated by you.
   
  So which sound and flavors do you prefer or which is neutral or which is musical ?


----------



## tlniec

Not sure what the ranges are on the scope (so I can't tell frequency of the output signal).  But isn't a square wave essentially a superposition of sines?  So your output is likely a 10KHz sine using 48KHz sampling, a 10KHz sine-ish wave at 96KHz sampling, and finally a squarish wave with a 10KHz fundamental and some of the second harmonic (one octave up) coming through when sampled at 192KHz.  Is that right?
  That's interesting, but I'm trying to decide what it would mean audibly, since I've never listened to a 10Khz square wave (nor an approximation thereof) that I can recall.  I know "in general," sines/sawtooths/squares sound different, but I'd say that's bounded somewhat by what the fundamental frequency is.
  I guess my expectation would be that your three results ought to all sound very similar.  Even the "squarest" wave would probably sound much like a 10KHz sine tone, since the 20KHz overtone would be all but inaudible to anyone without excellent hearing (and even then, wouldn't their aural sensitivity be rolled off?).  Maybe I'm wrong about that.  To me, what would be more interesting to look at is how changing sampling rate affects a 1Khz square wave.  A 1KHz fundamental is right in the fat part of the aural sensitivity curve, and plenty of harmonics will be audible (which I'd expect to make the square-wave "buzz" characteristic more discernible).


----------



## Greg121986

This thread seems to have died. Has anyone received their NFB-12 this week? Upon initial order of my NFB-12 during the first week of January I was told it would ship after February 15th. After emailing Kingwa again a few weeks ago they said February 20th. Hopefully I will be receiving mine soon! I have been waiting every morning for the DHL guy to show up.


----------



## Poetik

Quote: 





greg121986 said:


> This thread seems to have died. Has anyone received their NFB-12 this week? Upon initial order of my NFB-12 during the first week of January I was told it would ship after February 15th. After emailing Kingwa again a few weeks ago they said February 20th. Hopefully I will be receiving mine soon! I have been waiting every morning for the DHL guy to show up.


 

 There's only so much technical stuff you can talk about but I suppose everyone got the hint and started listening to their gear instead of talking about it.


----------



## legcramp

In for one, hopefully I'll get it in under 1.5 months or so. 
   
  The last dozen pages or so are all about that high-end roll off "problem", so if I am using this with my windows pc what signal should I send the DAC to avoid all of that using foobar and wasapi?
   
  Hopefully this thing smooth out my D2000 even more and do what the D2000 does best but better 
   
  Coming from an x-fi xtrememusic that I hot-rodded a few years ago that I broke yesterday.


----------



## sayh

Quote: 





legcramp said:


> In for one, hopefully I'll get it in under 1.5 months or so.
> 
> The last dozen pages or so are all about that high-end roll off "problem", so if I am using this with my windows pc what signal should I send the DAC to avoid all of that using foobar and wasapi?
> 
> ...


 


 You should not be bothered with the all the technical measurements and talks generally. Stretch your wallet to the max high-end if you are worried.  Any input would fine as long it sounds best to your own ears. Add a transport like DI, hi-face etc. and you are insured sonically. I am sure when you came from a sound card setup, it will be miles ahead and exceed your expectation. Just be prepared for a some patience and wait up =)


----------



## JaMo

Hi
   
  @ sayh saying:
 " You should not be bothered with the all the technical measurements and talks generally. Stretch your wallet to the max high-end if you are worried.  Any input would fine as long it sounds best to your own ears. Add a transport like DI, hi-face etc. and you are insured sonically. I am sure when you came from a sound card setup, it will be miles ahead and exceed your expectation. Just be prepared for a some patience and wait up =) "
   
  I agree completely with that.
   
  I think AGD have a quite big backlog of NFB-12's so a wait is expected. (I've got a meesage from AGD that my ESS-gear is on delivery but the NFB-12 will take a while to get.
   
  /Jan


----------



## zenki14

I'm in a search for an USBDAC/amp.
  This thread really helped deciding what to get, either the NFB-12 or NFB-11 + digital interface.
   
  I'm getting DT990 600ohms soon, and thanks to members' impressions about them being used with the NFB-12, I guess it's a good call.
   
  Will order soon I guess.


----------



## turn1200

I think we are all waiting.  I ordered mine on Feb 1.  Can't wait to hear it.


----------



## Aizura

Do you think the NFB-12's DAC would sound comparable to the NFB-3? They both seem to use the same chipset but the NFB-12 is $100 cheaper.  I already have an amp so I'm only interested in the DAC.


----------



## attenuated 3db

aizura said:


> Do you think the NFB-12's DAC would sound comparable to the NFB-3? They both seem to use the same chipset but the NFB-12 is $100 cheaper.  I already have an amp so I'm only interested in the DAC.




Perceived sonic differences are, of course, both subtle and subjective, but I while the NFB-12 used as a DAC only with your existing amp might sound "comparable" to the NFB-3, I don't think it would sounds as good, at least in theory, and quite possibly in practice. The fact they both employ dual Wolfson 8741 D/A converter to chips is significant, but not as much as how those chips are integrated into an entire component's circuit topology. Simply put, the NFB-3 has a much better power supply implementation for a DAC-only component than the hybrid DAC/headamp NFB-12. Plus, none of its cost of production (and component quality) is spent on a headamp section, which necessarily consumes a significant part of the parts budget for the NFB-12.

So, if you're happy with your existing amp, I'd say get an NFB-3 to go with it. If you want an integrated DAC/headamp that might be closer to being up to par with the NFB-3 and a good separate headamp, the Audio-gd FUN would be a better bet than the NFB-12. Same Wolfson 8741 D/A chips, but once again, a matter of a much better implementation at a necessarily higher (but not much) cost.


----------



## zenki14

Ordered mine yesterday.
  As expected the waiting list seems to be fairly long, been told estimated shipping is mid March.
   
  Till then I'll probably have a good read through this thread


----------



## legcramp

Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Ordered mine yesterday.
> As expected the waiting list seems to be fairly long, been told estimated shipping is mid March.
> 
> Till then I'll probably have a good read through this thread


 

 You and me both, heck mid march is earlier than I was expecting


----------



## tarnishedhalo

I asked for a shipping update today. Ordered end of Jan, will also be getting it mid March.


----------



## Greg121986

Quote: 





tarnishedhalo said:


> I asked for a shipping update today. Ordered end of Jan, will also be getting it mid March.


 


  Seriously? I ordered on January 4 and was told it would ship after February 15th. An entire month extra is going to be quite annoying.


----------



## turn1200

Quote: 





greg121986 said:


> Seriously? I ordered on January 4 and was told it would ship after February 15th. An entire month extra is going to be quite annoying.


 

 I don't know how closely your read what he said - he said he ordered at the end of a month, you ordered at the beginning of that same month.  Could be significantly different arrival times.


----------



## tarnishedhalo

Edwin said that they ran out of components for the builds which will arrive this week. They don't plan on having mine out by mid March, it could very well be that yours will be sent out sooner. Just for reference I ordered mine on Jan 23.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





dw1narso said:


> Olias, what do you think of NFB-12 paired with HF2?
> 
> HF2 is not usual Grado and is smooth already naturally... would NFB-12 still have the grunt to make it alive?


 

 I finally had the chance to listen to the HF-2/NFB-12 combination. The results were pretty good -- better than I'd expected, actually.
   
  To sound their best, the HF-2 need an amp that keeps their sometimes sloppy bass in line, while still emphasizing the highs enough to compensate for the HF-2's slightly rolled-off treble. On paper, the NFB-12 looks like the right amp to do the former, but should struggle with the latter. In my experience, this isn't really the case, as the NFB-12 very adequately drives the HF-2 in all areas. To be sure, this combination does not emphasize the highs, but it also does not overly de-emphasize treble as I'd feared. Bass is relatively tight and strong, while the mids are extremely pleasant with just the right amount of warmth.
   
  Notable albums and tracks I've tried with the HF-2/NFB-12 combination:
   
  Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe, "Fist of Fire" (track) -- kind of my go-to track for bass response and quickness. The Grado/A-GD combination handled it admirably, with plenty of bass impact and detail. Nicely done.
   
  Gentle Giant, _Free Hand _(album) -- this one is a bit of a varied workout, with treble/mids/bass all taking center stage at different moments. I was very happy with the results -- and in terms of soundstage, the HF-2/NFB-12 combo defied the Grado stereotype and very adequately represented Gentle Giant's almost superhuman staging and 3D feel.
   
  Eberhard Weber, "Silent Feet" (from _Colors_ box set) -- another bass benchmark, this time for depth and precision instead of impact/shake. Once again, the combination works very well.
   
  Peter Hammill, _Over _(album) -- my litmus test for treble (and a sibilance trap if there ever was one). Here, the limitations of this combo showed -- not because the sound was bad, but because it very distinctively tamed the frequently harsh and occasionally grating treble qualities I know and love from this album. In a way somewhat reminiscent of Senn HD650s, the HF-2/NFB-12 tandem managed to simultaneously express and slightly suppress the high end detail -- it's there to be found, but it's nowhere near as prominent as with other amp/can combos I've tried.
   
  Those are my observations for now. Overall, I'd say I slightly prefer the synergy of my RS-1s with the NFB-12, but as long as you're not actively looking for exaggerated high end sparkle (a la the K702s, for example), you'll probably be happy with the HF-2/NFB-12 combo.


----------



## dw1narso

Thank Olias,
   
  I really appreciated for your findings on HF2 and NFB-12.
   
  I'm not really looking for exaggerated high end sparkle. But my last experience with two difference balanced headphones HD580 and HF2 show me that both are not perfect. I test with my digital piano (Privia), which show me clearly HF2 lack the resolution power on the high keys registers (I believe due to earlier high rolloff), while HD580 lack the resolution power on the low keys registers (I believe due to driver inability to handle low keys and thus distorted). So, I'm looking for a flatter response source (to at least add a bit of the high for HF2), which I don't think default NFB-12 would be able to do without some modifications (which I hesitate to do...)
   
  So... Unfortunately, I decided to go to different route 10 days ago... hopefully someday I have opportunity to try NFB-12, but it seems won't be in the near future...
   
  Cheers


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *dw1narso* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> So, I'm looking for a flatter response source (to at least add a bit of the high for HF2), which I don't think default NFB-12 would be able to do without some modifications (which I hesitate to do...)


 

 I agree with your reasoning. If you're dissatisfied with the essential nature of the HF-2 -- emphasis on bass impact with noticeably rolled-off highs -- then the NFB-12 is not the amp to "fix" them. If, on the other hand, you had loved the HF-2 and wanted something that shared its sonic qualities, the NFB-12 would be a good choice.


----------



## Greg121986

My order placed on January 4th will also be delayed until mid March because of the back ordered parts.


----------



## Pine

As my search for a DAC/Amp continues, my budget has been significantly rising (and now it's at around NFB-12 level). The NFB-12 looks absolutely great. I've got my freshly shipped DT770 Pro/250's, and I've been looking for something to drive them via optical out from my Auzentech X-Plosion. 

I'm thinking of ordering the NFB-12, as it just seems perfect (and looks beautiful, if I may add). I have my EQ via soundcard boosting bass just a bit, and a little in the higher treble frequencies. 
Would the NFB-12 suit me? Is there any reason for me not to get it? 

I was also wondering that if the sound isn't perfect to my ears, I can always adjust it a bit with EQ, right?

Some insight would be awesome


----------



## movi

just got an email that my NFB-12 has shipped. i ordered Dec 30th.


----------



## j2kei

Quote: 





movi said:


> just got an email that my NFB-12 has shipped. i ordered Dec 30th.


 


  wow that is pretty outrageous. i thought any orders before jan 1st would be shipped by jan 30th.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





pine said:


> As my search for a DAC/Amp continues, my budget has been significantly rising (and now it's at around NFB-12 level). The NFB-12 looks absolutely great. I've got my freshly shipped DT770 Pro/250's, and I've been looking for something to drive them via optical out from my Auzentech X-Plosion.
> 
> I'm thinking of ordering the NFB-12, as it just seems perfect (and looks beautiful, if I may add). I have my EQ via soundcard boosting bass just a bit, and a little in the higher treble frequencies.
> Would the NFB-12 suit me? Is there any reason for me not to get it?
> ...


 


 IMO, All Beyer DT770/880/990 will sound great on the NFB-12


----------



## treaves

Not sure what meaning of the word 'outrageous' you mean; regardless, you are wrong.  Orders before Jan 1st there were quoting "after Feb 15".  When they started doing that, I'm not sure.  But that is when I orderd mine, and that is what I was told.  When I order an item from anyone else - including Apple - they provide their best-effort estimate of a ship date.  Not always do they make them.  It's more outrageous when they do!
  
  Quote: 





j2kei said:


> wow that is pretty outrageous. i thought any orders before jan 1st would be shipped by jan 30th.


----------



## Greg121986

I received an email today saying my NFB-12 was shipped yesterday. Hopefully it will arrive very soon.


----------



## allyl

same here. ordered 1/19.


----------



## anoobis

I was wondering whether the oversampling factor could be changed on the fly, i.e. the device knows the sampling rate of the incoming signal and switches the factor accordingly. I'm guessing from the posts about physical switches that this isn't really built in to the circuitry and so not feasible. Would it be a minor or major mod for the next generation of devices?


----------



## Pine

Just ordered. Apparently it should be shipping out mid March, however I really doubt that. Going to kill myself waiting...


----------



## twwen2

I just got home from a month overseas and found my NFB-12 on my bed 
   
  After a quick comparison with my current DAC (Stello DA100), I noted the following:
   
  - Bass seems clearer/cleaner. It seems to bring out more detail down low and hits a little harder. 
  - Restricted mid-range. It just doesn't have the depth or space of the Stello. Things sound a little crowded and muddied in the mid-range. The soundstage (voices in particular) is less 3D (if that makes sense).
  - More treble response. I'm noticing more details up top in tracks that I'm familiar with.
   
  So overall, I think I prefer the Stello. I guess it was unfair to put a $200 DAC/Amp up against a $700 dedicated DAC, but on paper the NFB-12 has a lot going for it. I think my next step is to see if I can get my hands on a DAC-19 and hear those PCM1704-UK chips!


----------



## j2kei

try burning it in. i had to burn mine in for around 150hrs before there was a significant sound change and the sound cleared up significantly
  
  Quote: 





twwen2 said:


> I just got home from a month overseas and found my NFB-12 on my bed
> 
> After a quick comparison with my current DAC (Stello DA100), I noted the following:
> 
> ...


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





twwen2 said:


> I just got home from a month overseas and found my NFB-12 on my bed
> 
> After a quick comparison with my current DAC (Stello DA100), I noted the following:
> 
> ...


 

  
  From my experience with sparrow wm8741 and dac19mk3 (no dsp-1, uses pmd-100 or df1704 filters), I have to say it won't be a massive change if you go to dac19. I believe the nfb-2 is about the same level as the dac19, while nfb-3 is somewhat/a little below them in technical ability. I think the main difference is it seems dac19 releases its grip on microdetails, allowing more to expressed somewhat more clearly, while sparrow makes microdetails seem like its being added onto macrodetail. But again, I don't think the difference is massive. You will likely notice a bigger difference between nfb-12 and nfb-10es/wm. Value is subjective, but in my opinion, audio-gd's entry level dac/amps are the best value, even though they do present music in a different manner than more resolving gear.


----------



## bhaishaki

This is second impression mentioning about congested mids. Could anyone confirm if this clears up after burn in? Also, could anyone tell how does it compare with Sparrow/Fun A?
  
  Quote: 





twwen2 said:


> I just got home from a month overseas and found my NFB-12 on my bed
> 
> After a quick comparison with my current DAC (Stello DA100), I noted the following:
> 
> ...


----------



## treaves

You'd have to ask those two people.  No one else could confirm it.
  
  Quote: 





bhaishaki said:


> This is second impression mentioning about congested mids. Could anyone confirm if this clears up after burn in? Also, could anyone tell how does it compare with Sparrow/Fun A?


----------



## BrianMendoza

I can confirm that the congested mids clear up after burn-in.
   
  When I first got the NFB-12, the mids were definitely congested, I'd even go as far as saying pretty sloppy too.
   
  But after 100+hrs of burn-in, it definitely became more refined, with much better separation.
   
  Trust me, when I first got my NFB-12, I was a bit discouraged, but AudioGD is known for needing some burn-in, so I did, and afterwards, I was convinced that at ~$200 dollars, the value was a very very tough one to beat.
   
  When it comes to AudioGD products, you can't take early impressions too seriously, the sound definitely changes with time spent on it.


----------



## bhaishaki

Thanks for the clarification. Waiting to receive mine.


----------



## treaves

Just got notification that mine shipped.  So for mine, they are not too far off of when they estimated.  So I'm anxiously waiting...


----------



## allyl

Is there a reliable estimate for how long it takes between notification that the unit has shipped and actual delivery of the unit? for reference i'm on the US East Coast


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





allyl said:


> Is there a reliable estimate for how long it takes between notification that the unit has shipped and actual delivery of the unit? for reference i'm on the US East Coast


 


  It took mine about a week, though I'm on the West coast. I tracked the package like a hawk, and for the first 4-5 days it just seems to circulate in Hong Kong. Once it's reached the states though, it moved pretty fast, and I got mine a day or two ahead of what their estimate was. I was very impressed.
   
  For you I suppose a few extra days would be expected, though I don't think you'd have to wait 2 weeks


----------



## movi

mine shipped in 4 business days to Canada by DHL. there were some updates in the online tracking on a Saturday, though, so i guess Saturday is a business day for DHL in HK. in that case 5 business days


----------



## legcramp

Quote: 





movi said:


> mine shipped in 4 business days to Canada by DHL. there were some updates in the online tracking on a Saturday, though, so i guess Saturday is a business day for DHL in HK. in that case 5 business days


 


  How about some impressions with your D2000? I can't wait until mine ship.


----------



## movi

impressions so far are good, although i haven't ever experience higher end gear than this, so i guess synergy is the only thing i can really comment on..
   
  i'm at about 20 hours listening/burn-in so far. the soundstage is certainly much wider than my old Meier CORDA Move. bass is also deeper and slightly more impactful.
   
  synergy with D2000 seems very good. on the whole i like a slightly dark presentation, although my HD-650 has been a little too dark for my liking. D2000 isn't a particularly bright headphone, but i think if I paired it with a bright amp it would be too bright for my liking. NFB-12 seems to keep the treble at just the right level for me.
   
  interestingly, the NFB-12 has brought out some midrange in the D2000 that I didn't know they had. on the whole I have found the mids to be slightly anemic in the D2000, and this has been my biggest gripe with this headphone. they are slightly improved with the NFB-12 (although perhaps any decent amp/dac would accomplish this).
   
  synergy with HD-650 is not good unless you like a super dark presentation. perhaps the NFB-12 treble will open up a bit with burn-in, but i would say this unit works best with brighter headphones. the treble roll-off doesn't seem too significant given how my D2000 has reacted, so i expect Grado's, for example, will still have pronounced highs. just slightly less pronounced. i'm looking forward to an RS-1 or RS-1i purchase in the future to try with this amp.
   
  personally, based on my first impressions, i would say dark head phone owners (HD-600, HD-650) will need a different amp/dac to enjoy that headphone.
   
  overall great first impression though. Denon, Beyer, or Grado owners will probably be happy.


----------



## Elanzer

Yeah, it seems like the NFB-11 would have much better synergy for the HD600/650, I don't think I'd like the HD650  on the NFB-12 either. From the feedback with somewhat brighter headphones (ATH-M50, Beyers, Denons, K701, etc) it seems the NFB-12 is a great improvement.


----------



## oculus

I have had my NFB-12 for a week now.  I have HD-650 headphones (standard cable) and find the NFB-12 does the job well.  I do have a beresford caiman which I have been using as a preamp.  Caiman has a headphone setup as well which sounds fine with the HD-650
  I don't find the treble to be toned down at all with the NFB-12 on the HD-650 at least compared with the Caiman which I am told is neutral in sound.  The interesting thing is that my ipod touch (3) powers the HD 650 fine at full volume.  In fact there really is only a little difference in sound quality unless I am listening at higher volumes than the Ipod can deliver which is surprising.  I dont think that is poor reflection on the NFB-12, probably moreso on my ears!


----------



## bhaishaki

When are we going to see full length reviews of NFB-12 with pictures and comparisons like for other gears?


----------



## Twinster

I read that the NFB-12 is recommended for headphone that are brighter (Like Beyer & Grado) and was wondering if that claim was for the AMP section only or does it include the DAC section?
   
  My dilemma is that I currently own HD-650 and DT-880/600 (And like them both) and want to buy a new DAC to complement my MAD EAR+ Tube amplifier and was wondering if the NFB-12 DAC would be a good fit. I'm planning to buy a Logitech Squeezebox Touch as a source via optical from the NFB.
   
  Any recommendation would be greatly appreciated.
   
  Also anyone knows when the Promo price will be ending?
  Thanks


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


twinster said:


> I read that the NFB-12 is recommended for headphone that are brighter (Like Beyer & Grado) and was wondering if that claim was for the AMP section only or does it include the DAC section?
> 
> My dilemma is that I currently own HD-650 and DT-880/600 (And like them both) and want to buy a new DAC to complement my MAD EAR+ Tube amplifier and was wondering if the NFB-12 DAC would be a good fit. I'm planning to buy a Logitech Squeezebox Touch as a source via optical from the NFB.
> 
> ...


 

 It's for both the DAC and the amp. I was wondering the same thing before I bought it a couple weeks ago, and I got it answered here also.
   
  It'll be a better idea to go for the NFB-11.


----------



## Poultrygeist

The NFB-12 is a good match for my Grado's and it's DAC performance is very close to the DAC in my MHZS 66F tubed CDP. My music files have never sounded better through the USB and are hardly distinguishable from CD's. The only con so far is the annoying crackle when switching inputs but that's not hard to live with.
   
  I'm still not clear on what the variable vs fixed outputs actually do. The volume control functions the same for each.


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





poultrygeist said:


> I'm still not clear on what the variable vs fixed outputs actually do. The volume control functions the same for each.


 

  
  I'm pretty sure those functions are meant for using the NFB-12 as a preamp, when you use the DAC out. With the variable setting, the NFB-12 will still control the volume of the ouput signal. With the fixed setting, the volume knob won't have any effect on the output signal, but it's akin to keeping it at 12o'clock.


----------



## m00t

Quote: 





poultrygeist said:


> I'm still not clear on what the variable vs fixed outputs actually do. The volume control functions the same for each.


 

 According to the product page: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm (down near the bottom), there's an internal jumper that controls whether or not fixed output mode is enabled. If your volume knob functions in both modes, I'm betting that you currently have the amp set to "Variable only."


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





m00t said:


> According to the product page: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm (down near the bottom), there's an internal jumper that controls whether or not fixed output mode is enabled. If your volume knob functions in both modes, I'm betting that you currently have the amp set to "Variable only."


 


 Agreed, this is most certainly the issue. My NFB-12 arrived in "Variable only" mode (ie, the knob adjusts the volume whether the switch is set to "variable" or "fixed). Since I have no need for the "fixed" mode, I haven't bothered to correct it.


----------



## treaves

I have listened to mine now about 30 hours, with my Senn HD-650.  I'm very pleased.  Whereas I might be interested in comparing it to an NFB-11, it sounds great now, with the entire spectrum of music I listen to (which is very broad).
   
  One very odd thing: when the unit is plugged in, there is the slightest of vibration.  This vibration is present when the unit is off as well as on - it does not change.  It's so slight, I almost didn't notice it, or thought it was my imagination.  Then I was reaching over it, and brushed the top, as was surprised.  My I lightly rub my fingers on the case (side, top) the vibration is much more noticeable.  Just gently rubbing the fingers across the case feels like rubbing your finger on the rim of a crystal wine glass.  Thinking it may be a slight texture to the case, I unplugged the unit, and as soon as I did, the vibration went away.  It's like a subtle hum.  Anyone else experience this?


----------



## tim3320070

Olias- I love where you live!


----------



## Jupe

Quote: 





treaves said:


> One very odd thing: when the unit is plugged in, there is the slightest of vibration.  This vibration is present when the unit is off as well as on - it does not change.  It's so slight, I almost didn't notice it, or thought it was my imagination.  Then I was reaching over it, and brushed the top, as was surprised.  My I lightly rub my fingers on the case (side, top) the vibration is much more noticeable.  Just gently rubbing the fingers across the case feels like rubbing your finger on the rim of a crystal wine glass.  Thinking it may be a slight texture to the case, I unplugged the unit, and as soon as I did, the vibration went away.  It's like a subtle hum.  Anyone else experience this?


 


  Odd indeed. I haven't felt even the slightest vibration or movement from my unit. I tried putting it on different surfaces to see if there would be a more prominent reverb somewhere, but I felt nothing. On/off, it feels the same. Perhaps you should contact kingwa?


----------



## Poultrygeist

The NFB-12 comes without feet which might explain the vibration. I added some clear stick-on feet from Home Depot.


----------



## Twinster

Quote: 





treaves said:


> I have listened to mine now about 30 hours, with my Senn HD-650.  I'm very pleased.  Whereas I might be interested in comparing it to an NFB-11, it sounds great now, with the entire spectrum of music I listen to (which is very broad).
> 
> One very odd thing: when the unit is plugged in, there is the slightest of vibration.  This vibration is present when the unit is off as well as on - it does not change.  It's so slight, I almost didn't notice it, or thought it was my imagination.  Then I was reaching over it, and brushed the top, as was surprised.  My I lightly rub my fingers on the case (side, top) the vibration is much more noticeable.  Just gently rubbing the fingers across the case feels like rubbing your finger on the rim of a crystal wine glass.  Thinking it may be a slight texture to the case, I unplugged the unit, and as soon as I did, the vibration went away.  It's like a subtle hum.  Anyone else experience this?


 


 So for everyone with Senn HD-650 the sound from the NFB-12 doesn`t seem to be to dark? I'm still trying to make a decision and I own the HD-650 and DT880/600 so looking to match both  and I'm not very excited on NFB-11 without a USB option. So I'm debating between this and a HDP.


----------



## Audiophil

Quote: 





> One very odd thing: when the unit is plugged in, there is the slightest of vibration.  This vibration is present when the unit is off as well as on - it does not change.  It's so slight, I almost didn't notice it, or thought it was my imagination.  Then I was reaching over it, and brushed the top, as was surprised.  My I lightly rub my fingers on the case (side, top) the vibration is much more noticeable.  Just gently rubbing the fingers across the case feels like rubbing your finger on the rim of a crystal wine glass.  Thinking it may be a slight texture to the case, I unplugged the unit, and as soon as I did, the vibration went away.  It's like a subtle hum.  Anyone else experience this?


 
   Tthis sounds a bit like you have a certain (small) AC-Voltage on the case o-)
  Can happen. I don't know your local power supply system. In Europe it can help to put the mains connector the other way around in the wall socket.
  Anyway you should check if your grounding connecting is proper.
  Some people mention the influence of these issues on sound...
   
  BR
   
  Michael


----------



## treaves

Quote: 





twinster said:


> So for everyone with Senn HD-650 the sound from the NFB-12 doesn`t seem to be to dark? I'm still trying to make a decision and I own the HD-650 and DT880/600 so looking to match both  and I'm not very excited on NFB-11 without a USB option. So I'm debating between this and a HDP.


 

  
  I do not have an NFB-11 to compare it to (although I wouldn't mind trying it), but with the NFB-12 the HD-650 sounds is great.  Very lush.


----------



## treaves

Quote: 





audiophil said:


> Tthis sounds a bit like you have a certain (small) AC-Voltage on the case o-)
> Can happen. I don't know your local power supply system. In Europe it can help to put the mains connector the other way around in the wall socket.
> Anyway you should check if your grounding connecting is proper.
> Some people mention the influence of these issues on sound...
> ...


 


  Hm... I'm going to try to track this down.  The particular outlet I am using doesn't have a great ground, but, I get the same result with other outlets that are properly grounded.  At least in my 130 year old house.  I'll take it to work and ty there, where everything is conditioned.


----------



## treaves

One other thing I noticed: you know the buzz you get when you plug in the headphones when the amp is turned on?  I get that even when the amp is turned off, and I plug in the headphones.


----------



## neddamttocs

Well, after a bit of research i have bit the bullet and started the process to order myself the NFB-12.
   
  EDIT: And its ordered! Cant Wait! Estimated shipping is Middle of April


----------



## wrx591

hi guys, do you think my unit will be ok if I let it run for 80 hours straight at work computer for the weekend?
   
  The unit runs warm with out any ventilation?


----------



## BrianMendoza

Quote:


wrx591 said:


> hi guys, do you think my unit will be ok if I let it run for 80 hours straight at work computer for the weekend?
> 
> The unit runs warm with out any ventilation?


 

 I think you should be just fine. When I had mine, I would always leave mine on to avoid having to warm it up and it never got too hot.


----------



## zenki14

I asked Edwin how's progress for next lot of shipping and just got a reply.
   
  He said they don't have enough stock of NFB-12 chassis, but they're woking hard to get them out as soon as possible.
   
  ...so the wait continues...


----------



## FrankWong

Are there any discussion about the comparison between NFB12 and NFB10WM? They are both using dual WM8741, the only difference is that NFB10WM is balanced DAC + balanced headphone amp.


----------



## tarnishedhalo

I just got mine in yesterday. I can't get it to work with windows 7. Device manager says there is a device connected: TE7022 Audio with SPDIF. Can someone please tell me how to make this my default audio device when I plug it into my computer? It happens automatically when I plug in my iBasso D2+.


----------



## m00t

tarnishedhalo: I actually had to turn the NFB-12 off and back on again before the USB audio device would start correctly. Before that, double clicking the device in Device Manager would yield a status that told me that "Windows was unable to start the device." If Windows doesn't report that the device is functioning correctly, it won't appear in the list of audio devices available for playback.
   
  To set the NFB-12 as the default audio device, you can take the long way around and go through Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Manage Audio Devices, then right click the TE7022 device and hit "Set as Default Device". I use the shortcut; I simply right click the speaker icon in the System Tray (down by the clock) and hit "Playback devices" to open the same dialog box.
   
  Bear in mind that you don't actually need to set it as the default audio device unless you want absolutely everything playing back through the headphones. Most audio applications will allow you to explicitly select your playback device, which should include allowing you to select the TE7022 for playback. If you aren't seeing the TE7022 in the list, it probably means that something went wrong in the device installation, which could be anything from a defective USB interface on the NFB-12 to a more severe issue with Windows itself. Drivers for the device are included with Windows XP/Vista/7, so you shouldn't be required to do anything special. Be sure to try the unit on another PC if you think this may be the case.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





tarnishedhalo said:


> I just got mine in yesterday. I can't get it to work with windows 7. Device manager says there is a device connected: TE7022 Audio with SPDIF. Can someone please tell me how to make this my default audio device when I plug it into my computer? It happens automatically when I plug in my iBasso D2+.


 

 Is it set as your default device under Playback Devices (rght click volume control)? When you're playing audio through it, does it register as going to the device (bars turning green under playback devices). When you change audio devices, you may have to restart your music program to make it take effect.
   
  Also might be a silly thing, make sure the button on the front is set to USB.
   
  edit: durrr repeating the guy above me


----------



## bhaishaki

I would like to know how does NFB -12 compare with Audio-GD Fun sound quality wise. I'm also interested in knowing the difference in sound signatures between these. I'm aware there is a separate thread on this, but that one has long become dormant. Being closer in price and an already well known product, want to know how does NFB-12 compare with it. The dual WM8741 has become the platform design for Audio-GD's wolfson based DACs. How does the single WM8741 in Fun stand up? Whether to go NFB-12 or FUN way?


----------



## Elanzer

bhaishaki said:


> I would like to know how does NFB -12 compare with Audio-GD Fun sound quality wise. I'm also interested in knowing the difference in sound signatures between these. I'm aware there is a separate thread on this, but that one has long become dormant. Being closer in price and an already well known product, want to know how does NFB-12 compare with it. The dual WM8741 has become the platform design for Audio-GD's wolfson based DACs. How does the single WM8741 in Fun stand up? Whether to go NFB-12 or FUN way?




While I haven't used the FUN to compare it to the NFB-12, I've used the Sparrow. Comparing the NFB-12 to Sparrow WM8741 briefly they are very similar in signature, although overall the NFB-12 seems slightly darker. Sparrow has been said to sound pretty much identical to the FUN, just limited in connectivity.

The NFB-12, Sparrow, and FUN should all carry roughly the same signature and it comes down to preferences in connectivity and versatility. FUN has more options in tweaking sound (OPA swaps) and a better PSU, it is seemingly a better unit than the NFB-12 when you aren't taking into consideration the prices. Then again the dual DAC of the NFB-12 may give you better channel separation. Basically, the FUN costs 50% more than the NFB-12, but it's not exactly better unless you want to swap OPA.


----------



## bhaishaki

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't clear about this earlier. Is there any advantage in the parts used in FUN- version B over the SMDs used in NFB-12? The power supply has been emphasized many times in the context of Audio-gd products. So, does the better PSU in FUN has advantages compared to NFB-12 or is NFB-12 is in scale(as it is a comparitively smaller unit)?
   
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## haloxt

Kingwa said fun, sparrow, nfb-11 and nfb-12 have the same level sound quality.


----------



## Poultrygeist

I just wanted to report that my NFB-12 is all I hoped it would be. There are no issues with Windows XP recognition through it's USB connection and that's all I use.
   
  Today I tried it's DAC with a Panasonic Blu-ray BD80 playing CD's through the optical out with the NFB feeding my little Miniwatt and the sound was comparable to my expensive tube CDP.
   
  For anyone with a low powered flea amp you'll appreciate the nice gain the NFB preamp section offers.


----------



## killkli

I've received my NFB12 for more than two weeks, and very satisfied with it.
  The headphone amp exceeded my expectation.
  The noise control is so good that there is no hum even from my IEMs, yet it's still powerful enough to drive DT990 without effort.
  The DAC may not be so sharp clear as other hi-fi DACs but the details are not veiled at all. The warmth it added to the vocal is surely very welcome trait for headphone's such as DT990.
   
  I didn't use it's preamp function, so nothing to say about it.
   
  I'll recommend it to anyone looking for a decent DAC/amp combo. Not to mention that it's quite compact enough to be carried while traveling (thought still need external power.)


----------



## tarnishedhalo

Thanks m00t that's one hell of an explanation. Thank you for taking the time to write it . I've yet to get it to work . I'll try again later today.
  
  Quote: 





m00t said:


> tarnishedhalo: I actually had to turn the NFB-12 off and back on again before the USB audio device would start correctly. Before that, double clicking the device in Device Manager would yield a status that told me that "Windows was unable to start the device." If Windows doesn't report that the device is functioning correctly, it won't appear in the list of audio devices available for playback.
> 
> To set the NFB-12 as the default audio device, you can take the long way around and go through Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Manage Audio Devices, then right click the TE7022 device and hit "Set as Default Device". I use the shortcut; I simply right click the speaker icon in the System Tray (down by the clock) and hit "Playback devices" to open the same dialog box.
> 
> Bear in mind that you don't actually need to set it as the default audio device unless you want absolutely everything playing back through the headphones. Most audio applications will allow you to explicitly select your playback device, which should include allowing you to select the TE7022 for playback. If you aren't seeing the TE7022 in the list, it probably means that something went wrong in the device installation, which could be anything from a defective USB interface on the NFB-12 to a more severe issue with Windows itself. Drivers for the device are included with Windows XP/Vista/7, so you shouldn't be required to do anything special. Be sure to try the unit on another PC if you think this may be the case.


----------



## turimbar1

Man I cannot wait for mine to come in, ordered mine on 3/4/11 and now its 4/3/11. They said they would ship it at the beginning of april so I am waiting for the email. It would not be so bad if I had a DAC already (or at least a real amp)


----------



## neddamttocs

I ordered 3/17/11 and was told mid april ... so a bit to wait.


----------



## legcramp

I ordered Febuary 20th and I am getting mid April. I've waited this long.... hope there's no more delays.


----------



## Fongk

Quote: 





legcramp said:


> I ordered Febuary 20th and I am getting mid April. I've waited this long.... hope there's no more delays.


 


  I was told mid April as well but when i emailed them a few days ago they said they'll be delay. They didn't tell me how long though. Right now i'm just listening to my dt880s straight through the computer and it doesnt sound good at all. Being tempted to buy something else..


----------



## turimbar1

Quote: 





fongk said:


> I was told mid April as well but when i emailed them a few days ago they said they'll be delay. They didn't tell me how long though. Right now i'm just listening to my dt880s straight through the computer and it doesnt sound good at all. Being tempted to buy something else..


 

 I am in the same position, my hd555s are on loan, my triplfi10 tips are either torn or missing, and my t50rp sounds terrible (compared to how it could sound) out of my laptop. I just opened up a box of turbines for consolation, but IEMs are not my thing for sitting and listening for extended periods


----------



## makton

Ordered one from Pacificvalve to replace a certain uDAC2... I still only have my ath-m50s.


----------



## zenki14

Basically same here..
  not surprised with further delays, but I guess we're unlucky ones that ordered around that time.
   
  I think there's people with an even longer wait if they ordered late January and still not shipped.
   
  Quote: 





legcramp said:


> I ordered Febuary 20th and I am getting mid April. I've waited this long.... hope there's no more delays.


----------



## Fongk

Quote: 





turimbar1 said:


> I am in the same position, my hd555s are on loan, my triplfi10 tips are either torn or missing, and my t50rp sounds terrible (compared to how it could sound) out of my laptop. I just opened up a box of turbines for consolation, but IEMs are not my thing for sitting and listening for extended periods


 
   
  The dt880s are actually my first pair of proper headphones. Im new to this and right now i cant really tell a difference between them and the cheap stuff i usually listen to. Hope the dac/amp makes a big difference because it feels like a waste of money right now. I was surprised that theres plenty of volume out of the computer even at 11% after what everyone said about it being hard to drive 600ohms though. With all this delay i feel tempted to spend more money on something else...Reading these forums really is bad for your wallet.


----------



## bhaishaki

Ordered mine on 31/Jan/11. Initial promise was March beginning, then mid-march now chassis supply problem, still not shipped. I also ordered it to use with my DT880/600s and HD555s. DT880 sounds OK with HP out from S:Flo2 but sound lean and not full. Really eager to see the difference this dac/amp can make to dt880s.
  
  Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Basically same here..
> not surprised with further delays, but I guess we're unlucky ones that ordered around that time.
> 
> I think there's people with an even longer wait if they ordered late January and still not shipped.


----------



## dePutive

I sent an email the 7th of feb. before ordering asking when the shipping would be if I orderd that spesific day. Got a reply after a few minuits that shipping would be the end of feb. maybe early march. Happy with that I placed an order the following day (silly me). The order confirmation said beginning of march, and the wait began. The 3th of March I sent them an email requesting a spesific shipping date. The respons was "It will be shipped when it's finnished".  A bit annoyed with this answer, I responded askin when it will be finished. The replying email told me that there were many orders placed before me, so I just had to wait.
   
  At this point I'm getting fed up. I had invested all my spare cash in a pair of sennheiser HD600, and at this point I am still unable to use them.
  So the 16th of March I requested another update. The respons was "The NFB-12 now is making,we will shipping out to you this month"
  Ok, two more weeks of waiting. Not ideal, but at this point I had allready waited over a month and I didn't want it to be a waste.
   
  So, we are 4 days into april, and I still haven't heard from them. So I sendt them an email a few houres ago requesting, yet again, an update.
  And this is when I get pissed.
  The respons: "Sorry about the delay,we will arrange shipping out at this month to you,thanks"
   
  I'm fed up at this point, but what can I do?


----------



## zenki14

Man you're waiting 3 weeks longer than I have, and probably the longest out of the current orders not shipped... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I'm on the same boat, eager to see what my DT990s can really do.
  It's already over a month since I got them, only able to drive them with an ordinary Yamaha amp I use to watch vids and play games..
   
  I hope they can get parts soon.
  The last NFB-12 they shipped was on 15th last month, they must be struggling.
  
  Quote: 





bhaishaki said:


> Ordered mine on 31/Jan/11. Initial promise was March beginning, then mid-march now chassis supply problem, still not shipped. I also ordered it to use with my DT880/600s and HD555s. DT880 sounds OK with HP out from S:Flo2 but sound lean and not full. Really eager to see the difference this dac/amp can make to dt880s.


----------



## zenki14

dePutive:
  your post and this situation makes me remember the previous S:Flo2 preorders at MP4Nation forums..
  Basically it was delay after delay after delay, some people really got fed up and cancelled their orders in the end.
   
  Admin there was kind of harsh in my view (I didn't order one but my friend did so I was checking posts).
  There were pretty good posts from customers making statements of service quality regards to delays,
  but most of them were deleted...
   
  Anyway I guess we should still be patient and be respectful for Audio-gd, like there are troubles and unexpected delays when it comes to these products.
   
  However I understand it's getting longer and longer. Maybe the longest delay we seen so far for the NFB-12.
  If you want to start making use of the Senns really soon, maybe just cancel and get a refund, then get yourself something else..
   
  As for myself I'll probably keep waiting, as this is something I need for reference.
  And being on a budget I probably shouldn't cancel and go to something that costs more at this stage..


----------



## JaMo

Hi all.
   
  I ordered mine the 28'th of january. I am still waiting but I am sure it's gonna be worth it. If You take a quick look at their consignmentpage You can understand they are working hard to do their best to build and deliver. I don't want them to rush and therefor sacrifice on the quality.
   
  Kingwa told me they are about 30 employees/workers and they are recruiting and educating about 10-12 new ones this very moment. So please be a little more patient. Kingwa is trying his best to meet the popularity of his gear and his is also loyal to his plan to run a slow growing company.
   
  I have received a NFB-11 and a NFB10ES and they are just great. I am sure the NFB-12 we all are waiting for will have the same high standard.
   
  By the way. I am listening through Sennheiser hd650 and first built my balanced cable to it. I raised the cablequality a notch when I did. ..So I ended up also building a new cable for single end use. What a facelift! Please follow this advice: - Build a better cable than the standard- /default one that Sennheiser ships the 650 with is a filter... If You don't have the skills to do it Yourself..try to get a friend to do it for You. Now when we are waiting.. Why not do something constructive during that time..
   
  (I seriously consider to build a new better cable to my ladys HD555(595)'s aswell)
   
  Cheers
   
  /Jan


----------



## dePutive

Thank for the "pick me up" guys. 
  I guess I kind of overreacted a bit. I understand that they are under a lot of pressure, and that the delays aren't really their foult. But the lack of updates when they _know _that their not going to make the stated shipping date makes me a bit, well, angry. I think I'll simply have to wait to. I can't afford any other alternative, and the sparrow simply does not meet my requirements.
   
  And JaMo, I don't have any experience with building cables, but f you are willing to guide me through the prosess I'd love to give it a go. Send me a PM if you'd be willing 
   
  Cheers,
  -dePutive


----------



## Elanzer

fongk said:


> The dt880s are actually my first pair of proper headphones. Im new to this and right now i cant really tell a difference between them and the cheap stuff i usually listen to. Hope the dac/amp makes a big difference because it feels like a waste of money right now. I was surprised that theres plenty of volume out of the computer even at 11% after what everyone said about it being hard to drive 600ohms though. With all this delay i feel tempted to spend more money on something else...Reading these forums really is bad for your wallet.




The DT880 should definitely be better than anything cheap that you've used, but maybe it's sound signature isn't for you. DT880 is very neutral, and maybe a bit anemic on bass, so they aren't as "exciting" as other headphones, they're more focused on accuracy. What don't you like about them? Do you want more bass? Maybe the DT990 is more up your alley. Is it too "aggressive" treble wise? Maybe HD600/HD650 is more what you want.

Make sure you're using the high gain setting on the NFB-12. Then ofcourse.. if you're playing 128kbit mp3 files, using youtube for music or similar and not atleast 192kbps files (preferably, ~220kbit vbr mp3 or flac) then no matter what headphones you use, they'll sound cheap. You'll find that the mastering of the recording and quality of the source matters more than anything.

Don't get sucked into the trap of buying amps to hopefully turn headphones you just don't like into ones you do - you're just going to dig a bigger hole, the biggest change is always going to be simply buying different headphones. The NFB-12 is probably the best amp for the DT880 in this price range, if you don't like it with the NFB-12: you just don't like the DT880.

You can always sell your DT880 to someone on the FS forum here after you find something else you do like, so your money isn't really wasted. I'd suggest keep using your DT880 for atleast 200 hours or so to allow burn-in on both the NFB-12 and DT880, and make comparisons to whatever cheap stuff you were using before after you're used to them.


----------



## Fongk

I dont have the NFB-12 yet. I'm saying im listening to the dt880 unamped at the moment.
  
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JIGF

It is safe to assume the NFB 12 is a better device than the best current portable offerings like the iBasso D12 and PD XM6, right?


----------



## vella

Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Anyway I guess we should still be patient and be respectful for Audio-gd, like there are troubles and unexpected delays when it comes to these products.


 
  I've been reading this forum for long time (bought my Ultrasone PL 2500 following the forum's opinions), and today i decided to join and share my experience with Audio GD

  Ordered an NFB12 January 29th, and still waiting.I think they are not treating me respectfully.
  Keep on telling shipment dates they can't comply with: there wouldn't have been any problem if they, honestly, had told me the NFB is ready by mid June, for example. I would have taken an informed decision.
  And they didn't reply to my last mail sent yesterday.
  What is happening is a joke


----------



## rusomik

Hello! 

I just got a letter with confirmation of shipping and tracking number. The order was sent on April 4.

I placed the order jan. 29. 

PS Sorry for my bad English


----------



## zenki14

Today I sent an email asking for updates..
  I knew they were struggling to make units so up to today I didn't really feel like wasting their time,
  but yeah I just wanted to see how's progress.
   
  Here's the reply:
  "Yes,now we get the enough parts and want to shipping out your NFB-12 in this month,sorry the long time delay"
   
 Sweet. They got the enough parts... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  and we see rusomik getting notice for his unit being shipped.
  
  So yeah vella we can finally relax a bit here, probably the ones who ordered earlier will get units shipped out first.
  There probably was a pretty long list from end of January, I guess I'll get mine a bit later than you guys.
   
  Quote: 





vella said:


> I've been reading this forum for long time (bought my Ultrasone PL 2500 following the forum's opinions), and today i decided to join and share my experience with Audio GD
> 
> Ordered an NFB12 January 29th, and still waiting.I think they are not treating me respectfully.
> Keep on telling shipment dates they can't comply with: there wouldn't have been any problem if they, honestly, had told me the NFB is ready by mid June, for example. I would have taken an informed decision.
> ...


----------



## Elanzer

jigf said:


> It is safe to assume the NFB 12 is a better device than the best current portable offerings like the iBasso D12 and PD XM6, right?




Most definitely. NFB-12 specs-wise blows those out of the water. Then again it is roughly 4 times the size of those units, without battery power.


----------



## JIGF

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Most definitely. NFB-12 specs-wise blows those out of the water. Then again it is roughly 4 times the size of those units, without battery power.


 

 Thanks for confirming.
   
  The NFB 12 is very transportable though.


----------



## turn1200

Quote:


rusomik said:


> Hello!
> 
> I just got a letter with confirmation of shipping and tracking number. The order was sent on April 4.
> 
> ...


 

  Sweet!  I placed mine January 31st so it should be shipping any day now.


----------



## vella

Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Today I sent an email asking for updates..
> I knew they were struggling to make units so up to today I didn't really feel like wasting their time,
> but yeah I just wanted to see how's progress.
> 
> ...


 

 Today they sent a mail telling in China is Tomb Sweeping day !!!!??????!!!!
  My problem is that they keep on stating shipping date they perfectly know they can't respect.
  But zenki14 you are right, let's relax a bit, and hope the quality of the gear justifies all that.
  Do you know of guys using NFB12 with Ultrasone Proline 2500?
  Hope it'll be a good match!
  Greetings from Italy 
  (Sorry for my english)


----------



## zenki14

Not sure on people with the 2500 and NFB-12 sorry,
  but I read it's a headphone with bright signature, so my guess is it will match with NFB-12 well.
  Just an assumption based from ones in this thread saying synergy with bright cans like Beyers are good.
 Perhaps you can be the first one to tell us how the NFB-12 drives the 2500 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm still dead keen to try my DT990s on this. I unexpectedly got myself an iQube V2 during this delay, it's extremely good for IEMs and PC speakers but not enough power to drive my Beyers.
   
  Hope more NFB-12 are shipped out soon, so I can atleast read more impressions while I wait for my one..
   
  Quote: 





vella said:


> Today they sent a mail telling in China is Tomb Sweeping day !!!!??????!!!!
> My problem is that they keep on stating shipping date they perfectly know they can't respect.
> But zenki14 you are right, let's relax a bit, and hope the quality of the gear justifies all that.
> Do you know of guys using NFB12 with Ultrasone Proline 2500?
> ...


----------



## Poultrygeist

Demand is out stripping production and that's why it's taking so long. I purchased in early January and received it in early March which I don't consider unreasonable when you consider the stir this thing has caused. The last amp I bought from China took 3 months.
   
  Be patient the NFB-12 is worth the wait.


----------



## vella

I will post my impressions about the match with 2500 for sure, albeit i am kind of a novice in headphone listening (but with more experience in hifi).
  When i will get my NFB...
   
  Just a question: if i would like to buy an headphone completely different from the 2500, in the 200-400$ range, what would you suggets?
  Thanks
  Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Not sure on people with the 2500 and NFB-12 sorry,
> but I read it's a headphone with bright signature, so my guess is it will match with NFB-12 well.
> Just an assumption based from ones in this thread saying synergy with bright cans like Beyers are good.
> Perhaps you can be the first one to tell us how the NFB-12 drives the 2500
> ...


----------



## Kagelou

Hey guys! Was searching around for $200~250 amps to power my future K701, and was pretty much set on the E7+E9 combo, but then noticed that Fiio is coming out with a new E15 and E17. Now I see this thread, and am really interested in this NFB-12.
  So, is everyone ordering this amp because it is a GREAT amp for the price, or because it is a limited time thing and won't be available after a certain time period?
  I am planning to get my full "at home set" after summer, and if this amp is really that good but limited time, I would like to get one xD
  If it isn't limited time and will be available after summer, I guess there is no rush for me..
  Thanks for the help!


----------



## Elanzer

kagelou said:


> Hey guys! Was searching around for $200~250 amps to power my future K701, and was pretty much set on the E7+E9 combo, but then noticed that Fiio is coming out with a new E15 and E17. Now I see this thread, and am really interested in this NFB-12.
> So, is everyone ordering this amp because it is a GREAT amp for the price, or because it is a limited time thing and won't be available after a certain time period?
> I am planning to get my full "at home set" after summer, and if this amp is really that good but limited time, I would like to get one xD
> If it isn't limited time and will be available after summer, I guess there is no rush for me..
> Thanks for the help!




What's limited isn't the unit's availability, but the $200 promo price. Eventually, it may be increased to ~$250 or so, we don't know yet.

It's easily the best for it's given price for a dac/amp combo unit, beating out the E7/E9 in specs and having more connectivity.


----------



## LiqTenExp

I will also add to this that is is the least expensive thing out there that will drive the LCD-2 with authority.  I am currently using it until my Lyr gets here and I can't complain about it.  10-11 o'clock is very loud and will drive them to the point where they sound like speakers if they are off your head near the end of the volume knobs travel.


----------



## Kagelou

hm I see. Would the NFB-12 be considered one of the best even if it was upped to its original ~$250 pricepoint?
  
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Also, I've seen a couple mention "$237.00"...do they mean that the promo price+shipping=a total of $237? So, once the promo is gone, it would be "New Price"+$37 shipping? Thanks~


----------



## vella

Exactly
  Mine shipped yesterday, a long way to Italy.
  Total time since ordering: 2 months+1 week. Be advised men.
  
  Quote: 





kagelou said:


> hm I see. Would the NFB-12 be considered one of the best even if it was upped to its original ~$250 pricepoint?
> 
> 
> Also, I've seen a couple mention "$237.00"...do they mean that the promo price+shipping=a total of $237? So, once the promo is gone, it would be "New Price"+$37 shipping? Thanks~


----------



## turimbar1

Quote: 





kagelou said:


> hm I see. Would the NFB-12 be considered one of the best even if it was upped to its original ~$250 pricepoint?
> 
> 
> Also, I've seen a couple mention "$237.00"...do they mean that the promo price+shipping=a total of $237? So, once the promo is gone, it would be "New Price"+$37 shipping? Thanks~


 
  OK,  FIRST the 200$ price is before shipping and paypal costs, and the real price is around 247$ all told.
   
  SECOND this is the promotional price, that means that they JUST came out with this (around fall of last year) and the price will go up IN THE FUTURE. And yes they always post the price not including shipping, in fact, if you look at the sparrow and the FUN, they have price ranges, they will quote you on the FULL price when you order it. The pricing is at their discretion.
   
  ALSO if you are ordering now, be prepared to wait until summer to receive it.
   
  this DAC is not going away any time soon, unless they are so overwhelmed by orders that they just decide it is not worth it (which is not going to happen, they will raise the price before that happens).


----------



## Kagelou

Dam, so once this promotional offer is gone, it'll cost a total of about $300...might just the E9+E7 combo or the E15 then =/
  
  Quote: 





turimbar1 said:


> OK,  FIRST the 200$ price is before shipping and paypal costs, and the real price is around 247$ all told.
> 
> SECOND this is the promotional price, that means that they JUST came out with this (around fall of last year) and the price will go up IN THE FUTURE. And yes they always post the price not including shipping, in fact, if you look at the sparrow and the FUN, they have price ranges, they will quote you on the FULL price when you order it. The pricing is at their discretion.
> 
> ...


----------



## .Sup

turimbar1 said:


> OK,  FIRST the 200$ price is before shipping and paypal costs, and the real price is around 247$ all told.
> 
> SECOND this is the promotional price, that means that they JUST came out with this (around fall of last year) and the price will go up IN THE FUTURE. And yes they always post the price not including shipping, in fact, if you look at the sparrow and the FUN, they have price ranges, they will quote you on the FULL price when you order it. The pricing is at their discretion.
> 
> ...




Wow till summer to receive it? That's putting me off. I need a device like this asap. I will send them an email for confirmation.


----------



## zenki14

In my case I chose EMS shipping and it was $234 total.. Ordered Feb 21st but as yet it hasn't been shipped.
 This time around is probably the worst delay ever, so people should expect a delay of 2 months and a week at most.
  However I think it was about a month + a week or so for the ones with shortest waiting time.
    
  Quote:


kagelou said:


> Dam, so once this promotional offer is gone, it'll cost a total of about $300...might just the E9+E7 combo or the E15 then =/


 

  
  Delay up to summer should be like the worst case scenario, but we can't say it won't happen..
   
  If you order, first they will probably say the waiting time is about a month, but I think up to this date they haven't managed that ever.
  Like I said above, shortest time I've seen so far is about a month + a week or a bit more.
   
  Dates are not final until it's actually shipped, they can't confirm or guarantee expectations, but that's life.
 If you can handle delays, then it's worth ordering while the promo price is up.
   
  Quote: 





.sup said:


> Wow till summer to receive it? That's putting me off. I need a device like this asap. I will send them an email for confirmation.


----------



## Elanzer

.sup said:


> Wow till summer to receive it? That's putting me off. I need a device like this asap. I will send them an email for confirmation.




The big delay is because audio-gd is under-staffed for dealing with this demand. They're all hand-made and hand-tested, and to maintain quality (audiogd pretty much loses their gains if they get warranty returns) they are very thoroughly tested. They've never had a hit such as NFB10/11/12 before this, the NFB-10 and NFB-12 by-far besting everything else in the same price range, they've been overloaded with orders since november.

So yeah you either wait, find one used, or buy something else.


----------



## scaud

Quote:


fongk said:


> The dt880s are actually my first pair of proper headphones. Im new to this and right now i cant really tell a difference between them and the cheap stuff i usually listen to. Hope the dac/amp makes a big difference because it feels like a waste of money right now. I was surprised that theres plenty of volume out of the computer even at 11% after what everyone said about it being hard to drive 600ohms though.


 

 I have recabled 600ohm DT880's on the NFB-12.  The external dac+amp is what will enable the dt880's to deliver substantial quality, I'd just wait for that before judging anything.
   
  From a volume/total power perspective the 600ohms can be driven fine with the SS amp in the NFB-12.  The quality concern arises because the higher ohm headphones generate sound more through voltage swing than current swing and tube amps are better at delivering voltage swing than SS amps.


----------



## scaud

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> The DT880 should definitely be better than anything cheap that you've used, but maybe it's sound signature isn't for you. DT880 is very neutral, and maybe a bit anemic on bass, so they aren't as "exciting" as other headphones, they're more focused on accuracy. What don't you like about them? Do you want more bass? Maybe the DT990 is more up your alley. Is it too "aggressive" treble wise? Maybe HD600/HD650 is more what you want.
> ...
> Don't get sucked into the trap of buying amps to hopefully turn headphones you just don't like into ones you do - you're just going to dig a bigger hole, the biggest change is always going to be simply buying different headphones. The NFB-12 is probably the best amp for the DT880 in this price range, if you don't like it with the NFB-12: you just don't like the DT880.


 
   
  Actually for my inexperienced ears I'm finding on my NFB-12 the 600 Ohm DT 880 is not well-defined nor exciting in the midrange compared to the 62 Ohm AKG 701.  However, bass, treble, and overall fidelity and listening pleasure is much better on the 880 than the 701 for me.
   
  Consensus on the 600 Ohm DT 880 thread is that a tube amp is needed.  So I am indeed wondering if I would get a bolder, better defined midrange out of the 880's by shelling out for a tube amp.


----------



## turimbar1

yeah they just shipped out quite a few NFB 12s and 11's, hopefully their case supplier does not have large delays like last time, that is what I heard was the main reason (but it could just be the sheer number)


----------



## Elanzer

scaud said:


> Actually for my inexperienced ears I'm finding on my NFB-12 the 600 Ohm DT 880 is not well-defined nor exciting in the midrange compared to the 62 Ohm AKG 701.  However, bass, treble, and overall fidelity and listening pleasure is much better on the 880 than the 701 for me.
> 
> Consensus on the 600 Ohm DT 880 thread is that a tube amp is needed.  So I am indeed wondering if I would get a bolder, better defined midrange out of the 880's by shelling out for a tube amp.




This has more to do with the characteristics of the DT880 vs K701 itself and not so much how they're amped. The K701 is almost entirely about the mids, and the DT880 has slightly recessed mids, which is really what enables it to have the improved bass and treble over the K701. Even after you shell out for a tube amp, the K701 will still have more prominent mids. I didn't find much difference between the NFB-12 and the LDMKIII for DT880 besides the extra smoothing effect of tubes and a less aggressive sound in general, I agree that beyers in general just like tubes though. The only way I've found to have your cake and eat it too for an all-rounder is T1.


----------



## scaud

That's super-helpful to know.  I'll look into the T1.  Thanks.


----------



## turimbar1

I am really hoping that is a full 6.35mm jack on there, I hate having to use my adapters because of the potential for poor connection.


----------



## Elanzer

turimbar1 said:


> I am really hoping that is a full 6.35mm jack on there, I hate having to use my adapters because of the potential for poor connection.




If you're referring to the NFB-12, yes it has a full 6.35mm jack.


----------



## cloud_171

Is there any disadvantages of purchasing it from Pacific Valve vs direct from Audio-GD? 

 After searching through the thread and only finding a handful of posts on it. Price seems to end up being the same and the lack of hassle of shipping from/to China seems pretty good.


----------



## OPTiK

Anyone try this with low impedance iems? Thinking of trying it out with my JH16's, wondering if its worth it?


----------



## turimbar1

Quote: 





cloud_171 said:


> Is there any disadvantages of purchasing it from Pacific Valve vs direct from Audio-GD?
> 
> After searching through the thread and only finding a handful of posts on it. Price seems to end up being the same and the lack of hassle of shipping from/to China seems pretty good.


 

 hmmm, I am pretty sure Pacific Valve did not carry it when I ordered last. Either they are lying with the 2-3 weeks shipping, or, well, I am an idiot and am stuck waiting when I could have gotten it weeks ago.


----------



## vella

Mine finally arrived.
  Departed Saturday morning frmn Hong Kong, landed in my hands on Monday morning.
  Great construction, soild feeling, no problems at all connecting to netbook with Win7+foobar+wasapi.
  Works extremely well with Ultrasone PL 2500, although i think it needs more burning in.
  But the real wooooooow was using nfb12 with my kef iq30 and Trends Audio t-class amplifier. Awsome clarity along the whole fequency range, bass improvement, magic soundstage. The loudspeakers literally disappear. 
  Strongly recommended


----------



## Fongk

I emailed them and they said mine wasn't going to be shipped until about a month....Not sure what to do now. If i get refund I'm going to lose a quite a bit since the AUD has gone a lot higher since my purchase. I would get the FUN but apparently its the same sound quality for 200 extra...My headphones are collecting dust at the moment.


----------



## turimbar1

Quote: 





fongk said:


> I emailed them and they said mine wasn't going to be shipped until about a month....Not sure what to do now. If i get refund I'm going to lose a quite a bit since the AUD has gone a lot higher since my purchase. I would get the FUN but apparently its the same sound quality for 200 extra...My headphones are collecting dust at the moment.


 

 when did you order originally? february? march?


----------



## Fongk

I ordered early march. I know people have waited longer but it still sucks.


----------



## ripburger

i ordered on 25 feb and still do not have any tracking number. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 i really hope that audio-gd can really ship my gear asap.


----------



## Fongk

Quote: 





ripburger said:


> i ordered on 25 feb and still do not have any tracking number.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thats only like a week and a bit before mine and i was told maybe another month.


----------



## ripburger

Quote: 





fongk said:


> Thats only like a week and a bit before mine and i was told maybe another month.


 

 exactly. my headphone is collecting dust too, and this will be my first dac+amp so i couldn't wait to test it out!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 if i would have to wait for another month, that will be almost 3 months of waiting. hopefully it is worth the wait .

 pardon me for my english.


----------



## Poultrygeist

I have a new 2a3 integrated amp with multiple inputs driving a pair of Zu's. I A/B'ed the NFB-12 connected via coax output from a high end tubed CDP against the analog connection between the amp and player and can tell no audible difference. In other words the NFB-12 DAC sounds as good as the tubed output DAC of the $800 player. So with the NFB-12 you won't need a high end player and as long as you've got a decent transport you're good to go.


----------



## bhaishaki

Mine shipped yesterday (19th Apr'). Ordered mine on 31st Jan'. Can't wait to have it in hands.


----------



## JaMo

Hi!
  I also got mine shipped yesterday.
   
  It will be both fun and very intresting to compare the NFB-12 against the NFB-11. I am very pleased with the -11.
   
  By the way. I am using my Sennheiser HD650 with a homemade single-end-cable. I have done a research and came up with that the coax-cable I am using is a RG-178 Ag.
   
  The result is fantastic.
   
  /Jan


----------



## legcramp

Sweet, glad to hear more orders are being shipped! When did you order yours JaMo?


----------



## JaMo

Hi,
   
  I ordered the 28'th of january, so I have been waiting for a while.... But I have also bought the NFB-11, the DI, and the NFB-10ES since then and those I got sent to me rather fast so I do not complain at all.
   
  I look forward to get my hands on the NFB-12 and to test it out and see how good it really is.
   
  /Jan


----------



## turn1200

Mine just shipped as well.  Ordered Jan 31st.


----------



## turimbar1

Quote: 





turn1200 said:


> Mine just shipped as well.  Ordered Jan 31st.


 
  Well crap, looks like I will have to wait another 2 months (march 4), I think I will ask for a refund. I just have nothing else that can drive my cans right now, and their customer service is disappointing (I do not hear from them unless I ask- they do not announce further delays, and even the rough estimates they give have been way off).
   
  I do not have this kind of time. Unless they can reassure me that it will ship this month or early next month (within the first two weeks) I will want a refund.
   
  If any of you want to sell yours PM me. We can negotiate pricing as well.


----------



## neddamttocs

I ordered MArch 17th so i think im in for a bit of a wait yet, ive sent them an email for an update on how its going but im thinking thats its going to be saying they are delayed even farther.

 Did anyone here order in mid feb? Im assuming that they've just started on their feb orders so ...


----------



## zenki14

As I see Jan 31st orders are still the latest ones shipped, I again asked whenabouts my order (Feb 21st) can be expected to ship.  Here's the reply:
   
  "Now the order is near for shipping to you,the NFB-12 we think is OK at the end of the month or the first week of May,thanks."
   
  I hope so..


----------



## neddamttocs

Yeah Marchm17th is by the end of May


----------



## turn1200

Quote: 





turimbar1 said:


> Well crap, looks like I will have to wait another 2 months (march 4), I think I will ask for a refund. I just have nothing else that can drive my cans right now, and their customer service is disappointing (I do not hear from them unless I ask- they do not announce further delays, and even the rough estimates they give have been way off).
> 
> I do not have this kind of time. Unless they can reassure me that it will ship this month or early next month (within the first two weeks) I will want a refund.
> 
> If any of you want to sell yours PM me. We can negotiate pricing as well.


 


  I think they were out of certain parts.  I wouldn't necessarily expect it to take as long for yours as it did for mine.


----------



## movi

had mine for about a month. for me it was well worth the wait. it's working very well with D2000s.
   
  hang in there guys.


----------



## zenki14

Just received a shipping notice


----------



## ripburger

im so happy for you guys 
 thanks for the updates.
  btw im still waiting mine to be shipped lol


----------



## turimbar1

augh I cant cancel, I was all angry, but after hearing from you guys and thinking about it for a while, I wont cancel. Still annoyed, but I guess I can wait a week or two.


----------



## AVU

Not to start a flame war, but for those who are really on the fence about waiting forever for the NFB-12 - Kingwa told me a few months ago that there was really very little difference between the Sparrow A and the NFB-12 in terms of sound.  And there shouldn't be - the sparrow actually costs a bit more.  But if you're really wanting an NFB-12, and don't need the variable line out, maybe consider just going with the Sparrow-A...


----------



## legcramp

Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Just received a shipping notice


 


  O snaps, I ordered around the same time you did, hopefully I get a shipping notice soon wooooot.
   
  Edit: They are arranging for mine to be shipped today yay.


----------



## Elanzer

avu said:


> Not to start a flame war, but for those who are really on the fence about waiting forever for the NFB-12 - Kingwa told me a few months ago that there was really very little difference between the Sparrow A and the NFB-12 in terms of sound.  And there shouldn't be - the sparrow actually costs a bit more.  But if you're really wanting an NFB-12, and don't need the variable line out, maybe consider just going with the Sparrow-A...




Yeah. Sparrow, FUN, and NFB-12 all using WM8741 all have the same amp power output and sound signature - as long as you are using WM8741 for the DA chip, my original sparrow had AD1852 and installing the WM8741 upgrade was a significant improvement. I had the Sparrow (B version, WM8741) before I replaced it with the NFB-12 (wanted the dac-out on the back for powered speakers or tube amp), and there really isn't a significant difference between the two, sound wise.

You can also simply order the Sparrow B with the WM8741 chip.. I believe this makes it cheaper than the NFB-12. You can also choose between DIR9001 or WM8805 for the receiver chip, DIR9001 if you want something neutral and more detailed, or WM8805 for 192khz support and a slightly warmer/smoother sound (which is what the NFB-12 uses).


----------



## Fongk

What would be the advantage of having 2 WM7841s if the NFB-12 sounds the same as the sparrow and fun which have only 1 WM7841?


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


fongk said:


> What would be the advantage of having 2 WM7841s if the NFB-12 sounds the same as the sparrow and fun which have only 1 WM7841?


 

 Take this with a grain of salt, but I'd _imagine_ dual mono would give you better dynamic range, ie. it's may just be a spec-sheet thing.
   
  Speculating though, so send Kingwa an email.


----------



## movi

i doubt he puts 2 of them in there without a good reason


----------



## turimbar1

So I just asked him and he said that they should ship out next week (ordered march 4th). I will wait, but you cant make me like it.


----------



## AVU

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Elanzer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
  I find the DIR 9001 plenty warm and smooth enough in my 8471 Sparrow A.  But yes, I'm sure the NFB-12 represents a marginal improvement over the sparrow - why else would he make it?  But it's just that he's fairly straightforward about the fact that if you exchange last year's $200 product for this year's $200 product, you're not magically going to see some tremendous jump in quality.  He considers these "low end gears" - not bad, mind you, but, well, why would he sell $1500 gears if they sounded the same?  I remember I volunteered to try one of the first Digital Interfaces and he basically wouldn't sell it to me, saying "you won't hear any difference in a gear like the Sparrow" - it's made for stuff like the Reference series.


----------



## vpsporb

Hey Bros!  (NFB-11 owner)  
   
  DI mentioned... I'll just leave this tidbit here..
   
  If you have a COAX-out on your PC/MAC... *Digital Interface ver.A*  is a "Must Have"
   
*USB->NFB-11=good*
*USB->DI ver.A->COAX->NFB-11= noticably Better *
*COAX->NFB-11=pretty good*
*COAX->DI ver.A->COAX->NFB-11=Amazingly Good*   
   
  Quite startling how good COAX->COAX sounds.
   
  from... http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/516886/audio-gd-nfb-11/870#post_7424082   to read more...
   
*@JaMo*..... waiting for your NFB-11 and NFB-12 impressions...


----------



## zenki14

Interesting, I had a look at the NFB-11 thread too.
   
  At the moment I don't have a DI, I wasn't planning to get one until I might go balanced and get an NFB-10 or something else.  What I'm interested is your comparison of the USB input and Coax input of the NFB-11 (the "good" and "pretty good").
   
  From your PC/Mac directly to the NFB-11, do you rate the Coax input better than USB?  It may be the same or similar for the NFB-12 so I'm curious..  Ofcourse I will test and compare myself when the NFB-12 arrives (probably this week) but impressions while I wait won't be any harm.
   
  My PC onboard Coax output is just a Realtek ALC889A, so somehow I doubt Coax will be better than USB.. but I suppose when DI comes in place, things will change.
  
  Quote: 





vpsporb said:


> *USB->NFB-11=good*
> *USB->DI ver.A->COAX->NFB-11= noticably Better *
> *COAX->NFB-11=pretty good*
> *COAX->DI ver.A->COAX->NFB-11=Amazingly Good*
> ...


----------



## vpsporb

*@zenki14*:
   
  The good thing about the DI is that altho it may cost a bit much to pair with a lower cost A-GD DAC. 
  I can enjoy it's superb SQ *now*, and it can migrate with me when I upgrade to a Higher end A-GD DAC in the future.
   
  Yes the NFB-11 COAX is better sounding than both Toslink and USB.
  I guess "pretty good" would be "great sounding" if I didn't hear COAX to DI..
   
  It sounds so incredible out to Z5500 speakers.. today I had a huge grin on my face while listening to FLACS saying
  "OMG this is so freakn amazing!" over and over... lol
   
  Do not doubt Padawan... j/k  assuredly your PC onboard COAX is better than USB.
   
  One reason I was using USB for audio is because I didn't know I could use both of my COAX outputs at the same time! 
  My music SPDIF-out is from onboard Asus P5B-Deluxe ADI1988B 24bit/192hz. has both Toslink and COAX 
  I'm also using my Asus D2X soundcard COAX to send TV SHOW/MOVIE Pro Logic/DD/DTS audio to my Z5500 decoder.
   
  I am learning though.. that If you have COAX or Toslink, you should diligently avoid and shun USB....  It's for Mice... afterall!  
   
  Enjoy playing your NFB-12 when you get it.   I'd love to have both DACs.... but I'm no JaMo... y'know.


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## tim3320070

Received mine recently and am quite impressed. I ran a little comparo between the 12 and my DI-Ref-8-Phoenix and while the air, depth, width and detail is easily perceived better with that rig over the 12, it's not earth shattering. Very impressive little unit. Vocals are great and detail is very good. I don't understand previous reports of detail lacking. The only thing it's really missing compared to higher end devices is what I mentioned earlier, in particular, the width of soundstage- more in front of you vs. to the sides as the Phoenix provides in spades.
  All in all, amazing, refined sound for the money.


----------



## acenes

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Received mine recently and am quite impressed. I ran a little comparo between the 12 and my DI-Ref-8-Phoenix and while the air, depth, width and detail is easily perceived better with that rig over the 12, it's not earth shattering. Very impressive little unit. Vocals are great and detail is very good. I don't understand previous reports of detail lacking. The only thing it's really missing compared to higher end devices is what I mentioned earlier, in particular, the width of soundstage- more in front of you vs. to the sides as the Phoenix provides in spades.
> All in all, amazing, refined sound for the money.


 

 Thanks Tim!  That was a great little comparison , I took a heck of a lot from it. Question - did you use the same headphones and what where they?  I have recently aquired an 11 , I have the 12 too , and I always wondered about the elusive soundstage , I just have entry level headphones though , always thought that was the cause. I've had the NFB12 for months now , got about 800 hours break in , I love it with my woodied modded SR225 , it's a great matchup.


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## tim3320070

I am using DT770/600. I find they have good detail, warmth and decent air for closed. Most important for me is that they isolate really well. The soundstage width seems to come from better power supply/ filtering which the Ref-8 and Phoenix have massively, and where the little 12 cannot compete.


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## CantScareMe

- Straight out of the computer via usb, how does the nfb-12 compare to higher priced portable setups, such as the pico dac/amp?....
   
  .... When using both easier to drive full size cans (like a900) or harder to drive ones (like akg k271) ?
   
   
  And the last thing I'd like to know if possible before placing my order;
   
  - With the more sensitive Iem's, such as re zero/ie8, would I hear hissing out of the nfb's headphone out. That is when playing in basic 48/16 mode.
   
   
  Thanks.


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## tim3320070

The 12 sounds much better than my Ibasso D10, straight out of computer with usb. It's not wildly better but descernable. But you can't walk around with the 12 velcro'd to your laptop like I do with the D10.


----------



## CantScareMe

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> The 12 sounds much better than my Ibasso D10, straight out of computer with usb. It's not wildly better but descernable. But you can't walk around with the 12 velcro'd to your laptop like I do with the D10.


 


 Thats with your dt770/600 I assume..
   
  Do you think its a similar difference with easier to drive full size cans?


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## tim3320070

No, the fidelity is better on the 12 with my X10 IEM as well. It's not just the extra power, it's the extra filtering of that power among the rest of the high quality parts. I'm not slamming the D10, I think it's great for what it is.


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## movi

according to the website, the DI is mostly for improving on poor coax sources: [size=x-small]The coaxial input can improve on SQ from some low/mid rang coaxial output source. Like some DVD player, PC sound card, low/mid rang CDP like the Marantz CD67, ect. If the coaxial output source already quite Hi-end, don't expect the Digital Interface can improve on SQ.[/size]
 [size=small] [/size]


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## tim3320070

He means any poorer source including the lesser USB inputs on his DAC's, could be coax (version A only), usb or optical.


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## CantScareMe

tim3320070, thanks for your answers.
   
  It's good to know that the klipsch's work well on the nfb-12, as I'll be using similarly sensitive iem's.
   
  One more thing, how long can I expect the audio gd to last- mechanical build quality?
   
  Ibasso d4/fiio e7 are still running perfectly after around 1 year. Fiio e9 starting to give one problem now after 6 months- slightly noisy volume knob. Nuforce udac2- well better left unsaid. I felt bad about expecting this thing to work for a day even, poor piece of junk!
  All I believe are made in china..so it don't matter always where it's made from.


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## tim3320070

Can't answer that. I have had 8 different AGD products with no issues over the last 2 years. They are not perfect but no one is, at least Kingwa takes care of things if they go wrong and he is someone I trust.


----------



## zenki14

Arrived this morning.  Paid 21st Feb, shipped out 22nd April, arrived 28th April.
  Not too bad considering the shortage of cases and overwhelming orders from the end of last year (however initial word from Edwin was mid March).
   
  Pretty hardcore packing in the box.  Tape, tape, tape.
   
  My first impressions (just USB because I'm waiting for a short coax cable to arrive).  I'm surprised with the power this compact device brings out.  It's actually beyond my imagination that burning in will brighten it up and bring out even more as others said, because it feels like this thing is kicking full guts out of my DT990 600ohm already.
   
  Volume I like is about 12 o'clock at high gain for the DT990 which is pretty power hungry.  Synergy with bright cans seems to be true, the NFB-12 is very very neutral.  However the treble of DT990 still stings for many songs so I had to EQ it down to atleast listen for few hours.  Makes me think I won't need the Sabre DAC models if I'm staying with bright cans and only have recordings up to 48kHz 16bit.
   
  Noise is so, so low, like nothing atleast with my PC's USB.  I used the SE535 to check, I can't hear anything when music is paused or stopped.  Excellent.
   
  I want to proceed with burning in, but I'm wondering what to do.  Should I just let it play music 24/7 through my DT990 or speakers?  Or can the headphones be plugged out, speakers turned off while I'm not in front of the PC?


----------



## CantScareMe

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Can't answer that. I have had 8 different AGD products with no issues over the last 2 years. They are not perfect but no one is, at least Kingwa takes care of things if they go wrong and he is someone I trust.


 

 8 agd products with no issues over the last 2 years. I'm sold. Cheers.
   
  Can wait for around 2 months by the looks of it, thats okay.
   
  Again thanks for your clear responses.


----------



## tim3320070

They used to be about a month for products to get to your door but they are growing a lot it seems and it's taking quite a while for their popular items (like the NFB12). Well worth the wait IMO. Gee, there I go again with the fanboy-ism. What I am really a fan of is good value for the buck.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Arrived this morning.  Paid 21st Feb, shipped out 22nd April, arrived 28th April.
> Not too bad considering the shortage of cases and overwhelming orders from the end of last year (however initial word from Edwin was mid March).
> 
> Pretty hardcore packing in the box.  Tape, tape, tape.
> ...


 

  
  I believe with burning in a DAC it simply has to be powered on and nothing else. You could probably get away with just unplugging headphones and turning off your speakers while playing music.
   
  NFB-12 definitely works well with bright headphones in general. My M-Audio AV40 speakers are somewhat on the bright side as well and the NFB-12 greatly improved them for my tastes, while maintaining their high level of detail.


----------



## tim3320070

I was told you have to run a signal through it (music, white noise), but I don't really know. I do feel that AGD equipment improves with a certain amount of use (let's say 200 hours) IMO.


----------



## zenki14

Thanks for the suggestions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I'll see how it turns out after 200 hours..


----------



## vpsporb

Quote: 





movi said:


> according to the website, the DI is mostly for improving on poor coax sources: [size=x-small]The coaxial input can improve on SQ from some low/mid rang coaxial output source. Like some DVD player, PC sound card, low/mid rang CDP like the Marantz CD67, ect. If the coaxial output source already quite Hi-end, don't expect the Digital Interface can improve on SQ.[/size]
> [size=small] [/size]


 
   
  Yeah, I was confused about that discription as worded myself.  From what I understand my *Asus P5B Deluxe WiFi AP* mobo and *Asus D2X* soundcard
  COAX-OUTs are at best "Mid range" products. "*already quite High-end*" is _Pro-Audio spec_*.*  way above "consumer grade" that I have.
   
  Digital Interface ver.A *COAX-IN* w/ regulated power, Shapes and Defines the music so exquisitely.. that I would not like the "sound" of my DAC without it.
  (that statement i would have laughed at a few months ago) but the proof is in my pudding... and it tastes sooo good in my tummy!
  I would be *very* sad without my DI ver.A, it makes_ that _much difference to me.
   
  Who the H*lls would've thought I'd be singing the praises of a freaking "Interface" when I have a new NFB-11 Sabre32 DAC?? 
  This is a strange World indeed.....  
   
  P.S. the above statements are valid for DI ver.A _COAX-IN _usage *only *!  USB-IN on _both_ devices sound quite poor compared.


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## ripburger

just an update for our friends that are waiting,
 i just got a tracking number from audioGD(ordered on the 25 feb)
 oh boy i can't wait for it to reach my doorstep!


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## legcramp

DHL just handed me mine right now, 15 minutes before I have to leave for class. 5 minutes later after unboxing and listening to them on my Denon and I'll be a bit late today! haha. People weren't kidding about D2000 amped vs unamped, so much fuller sounding now!!!
   
  I don't think I need to have the XB1000 anymore from this quick listen!


----------



## Heathie89

If I were to order one tomorrow, how long would delivery be to the U.S. east coast? I would like to have one for its DAC. Thanks


----------



## eron

Judging from the replies here, delivery takes anything from 3 weeks to 2 months. Unfortunately, you might not receive it before someone who orders later.


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## acenes

I just looked at their website , and it said "For Order" , so that means it's not "In Stock"...  so it will take at least seven to eight weeks before it arrives at your door. If it was "In Stock" , it would take one to two weeks to arrive at your door.  It always took eight days to get to my door after I got an e-mail shipping confirmation from Audio-GD. Three times , seems consistent.
  
  Quote: 





heathie89 said:


> If I were to order one tomorrow, how long would delivery be to the U.S. east coast? I would like to have one for its DAC. Thanks


----------



## tim3320070

Guys, just email them, this back and forth is pointless.


----------



## Heathie89

I don't think I could wait that long though! I need a DAC for my recently purchased Beyerdynamic DT 990/600. Any recommendations for a good pairing DAC other than the NFB-12?


----------



## zenki14

Quote:


heathie89 said:


> I don't think I could wait that long though! I need a DAC for my recently purchased Beyerdynamic DT 990/600. Any recommendations for a good pairing DAC other than the NFB-12?


 
   
  If you don't need dual WM8741, don't need DAC out on the rear and can't wait 2 months, how about getting the Sparrow A?  It's in stock.
   
  If you don't want the Sparrow:
  NuForce Icon HDP
  Yulong D100
  Audiotrak DR. DAC2 DX
  Audio-GD FUN
   
  These are the dac/amp combo units that were up in my "should be able to drive DT990/600" list before I found and ordered the NFB-12.  The FUN seems to ship pretty early these days so it's a good choice too.
   
  I ended up getting the NFB-12 because it's cheaper and good enough for my needs at the moment before I go balanced.  Just needed something that drives DT990/600 with enough power with good synergy, plus USB/Coax for PC, optical for Xbox360 and DAC out for PC speakers.  2 months was long, but I'd say it was very well worth the wait.
   
  Every penny saved counts.. this week I just managed to gather enough and pay for pricey cans.
   
  50 hours to go for burn in, so far I can't notice major difference but it's going good and strong.


----------



## TOFAN

Just got an email from audio gd. They send my nfb12 yesterday.. They confirmed my payment 11 march.


----------



## neddamttocs

ooo hopefully im soon. im confirmed on march 17


----------



## turimbar1

I confirmed payment on march 5 and I just got my announcement! sooo excited, never thought this day would come


----------



## Fongk

I guess my NFB-12 should be shipping soon. I just realised my computer doesn't have optical so I only have USB and Coaxial. Which one should I use? The NFB-12 doesn't come with a coaxial cable so is it worth the money to buy a cable to use the coaxial? If so, which one is a good option or are they all the same? I see that audio gd has one for 23 bucks. Thanks


----------



## zenki14

Quote:


fongk said:


> I guess my NFB-12 should be shipping soon. I just realised my computer doesn't have optical so I only have USB and Coaxial. Which one should I use? The NFB-12 doesn't come with a coaxial cable so is it worth the money to buy a cable to use the coaxial? If so, which one is a good option or are they all the same? I see that audio gd has one for 23 bucks. Thanks


 

 I guess it depends on the Coax on your PC.
   
  To be honest, to my ears, with my setup (onboard Realtek coax to NFB-12) I felt not much difference in coax vs USB.  Actually USB seems better in the extreme top end, but just slightly more sharpness in treble.  On the other hand, vpsporb mentioned his Asus P5B onboard coax beats USB and optical, but his one is NFB-11.  I think the Asus P5B has a better coax than Realtek, and also maybe the NFB-11 is easier to notice difference than the NFB-12.  Or my ears aren't good enough lol..
   
  Coax cables aren't a big investment, it's worth keeping as you may need it in future anyway.


----------



## tim3320070

Coax cable- http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=2680&seq=1&format=2


----------



## Soundster

Ordered mine through Pacific Valve on March 15th, 2011 and received it on April 29, 2011.  Spent a lot of time playing with software configuration.
   
  Now using Foobar2000 with WASAPI (Buffer Length: 800ms Output format: 24 bit), and SoX v0.7.0 (Target samplerate: 96000 Hz, Passband: 95%, Not allowing aliasing, Phase Response: 50%, Linear).  Using Windows 7: configured Playback Device "SPDIF Interface", under the advanced tab I've set the default format to "2 Channel, 24 bit, 96000 Hz (Studio Quality).
   
  Still am not certain if I'm using the optimal setting.  All of mine music quality are Flac 16 bit 44K or below.
   
  So far only about 100 hr burn-in time.
   
  On ATH-M50:  Miles Davis, Kind of Blue, So What, Flac, 16 bit, 44100 Hz.  at 1:30 minute mark the trumpet sounded clear, spacious but not harsh.  Sax kicked in at 3:25 minute mark sounded full and luscious.  All-through the bass, drums and piano are present and are not washed out.
  James Taylor, Live, 1993, Fire and Rain, Flac, 16 bit, 44100 Hz,  Sound stage sounded narrower than the DT-990. Piano's lower register has a fuller sound with this phone.
  Casual listening to 80's 90's Pop Rock is very enjoyable, electronic, r&b, rap with forward bass and electronic effects.
   
  On Beyer DT-990 Pro 250 ohm: Miles Davis, Kind of Blue, So What, Flac, 16 bit, 44100 Hz. Sounded even more open, high range not quite as pronounced but smooth.  Piano became more noticeable.
  James Taylor, Live, 1993, Fire and Rain, Flac, 16 bit, 44100 Hz, noticed in vocal, the "Ss" (SEE you again,...SEEN fire, SEEN rain...) sounded a bit higher than usual.  Guitar became more forward.  Drums sounded tighter.
  Casual listening to Symphony, violin/piano concerto is great, details of every instrument can be heard.
   
  On HFI-780: TBA


----------



## neddamttocs

I just got my email for shipping as well. Confirmed on the 17th of March.


----------



## JaMo

Hi all.

 Here are my first impressions from the comparation between the NFB-12 and the NFB-11.

  
 I have been listening to them both through the HD650 and the HD555's(595mod).

 Source has been Windows 7 32bit, Foobar2k, wasapi, 24 bit via USB to the Digital Interface that upsample to 96kHz mainly to
 deactivate the filter in the NFB-12 to have two flat responses to compare.

 Both NFB-'s has been fed simultanous via their coax-in interfaces from the DI.

 The NFB-12 has about 200 hours of burn in time, the NFB-11 more... approx 400h.

 The music played are a mix of lower rez 16 bit/44.1 kHz and hi rez 24/48,88.2,96,176.4 and 192 kHz.
 All kinds of recordings and types of music in the flac-format.

 The first feeling that appear when listening to the NFB-12 is ease... This small box is very nice to listen to..
 The music flows smooth and beautifully and it is very easy to loose yourself in the NFB-12-universe...  

 I am sure You guys waiting for Your NFB-12's, will be pleased with them. The NFB-12 gives a realistic and smooth
 presentation of the music. Very enjoyable. You cannot dislike this thing.

 I have tried HD555's with its "default"cable and the HD650 with my homemade diy-HQ-cable (RG178 sn) and I have come
 up with that the NFB-12 pair best with the HD555's. With the 650's the NFB-12 sounds more defined in bass area but the overall
 impression favors the 555's/NFB-12-combination.


 For me to compare the NFB-12 against the NFB-11 is a biased experience. I have a passion for music gear that produces microdetails..
 ..and Yes, the NFB-11 have more of those.

 The 650's with the diy-cable pairs better with the NFB-11, I think.... But that is my own opinion and take it for what it is.
 Your preferences can say something else. So this is my preference and I can right now say that my verdict is very much the same
 as the Audio-gd's own advertising words:

 "The NFB-11 has quite high fidelity, its sound signature is absolutely revealing.... "
 and
 "The NFB-12: "Neutral but smoothness sounding, it doesn't sound skeletal or digital (or metallic).
 There's meat aplenty on them bones.."


 The NFB-12 is a promo DAC/pre for the market for USD200 and it is a steal for its price. In my/our home the NFB-12 will be used
 on a daily basis delivering beautiful sound through the HD555's in our livingroom.


 /Jan


----------



## Soundster

Can NFB-12 users confirm this for me?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  1. NFB-12 shows up on our computer as "SPDIF Interface" as a playback device.
   
  2. Since I already use WASAPI and Sox in my Foobar2000 for 24bit and 96000 Hz output, should I configure the "SPDIF Interface", advanced tab's default format at 16bit, 44100 Hz? or keep it at 24bit, 96000 Hz?


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





soundster said:


> Can NFB-12 users confirm this for me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It will show up depending on what interface you're using. If you're using USB, it won't show up as SPDIF at all, it'll show up as TE followed by 4 numbers (TExxxx, can't remember which as I never use USB). For Coax and Optical, it'll show up based on whatever your integrated sound / soundcard refers to it as. In my case, coax is "Realtek Digital Output" and optical is "Realtek Digital Output(Optical)", since I use realtek integrated audio for spdif. If you don't configure the spdif interface for 24bit 96khz, your resampled audio is still outputting at 16bit 44.1khz
   
  Personally, I use SoX resampling to 192khz with the DAC configured for 24bit 192khz. It does not really sound notably different than leaving it at the default 16bit 44khz to me, maybe slightly smoother but I've never done a blind comparison.


----------



## bhaishaki

Mine shows as "DigiHug USB Audio Analog Stereo". I'm using ubuntu linux. Interestingly in command line if I list the usb devices it show up only as 7022.


----------



## Elanzer

Tenor TE7022 is the USB receiver chip.


----------



## vella

Quote: 





soundster said:


> Can NFB-12 users confirm this for me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 In Foobar, preferences/output, my nfb12 shows up as SPDIF Interface, and i use usb output from my netbook.


----------



## movi

went on a shopping spree... have RS1 and DT990/600 on the way to plug into my NFB-12


----------



## turn1200

It shows up for me in Foobar2000 on Windows as WASAPI : SPDIF Interface (TE7022 Audio w/SPDIF).  I'm using the USB interface only.  Like it a lot.  The bass was a bit loose initially and has tightened up.  I primarily listen on Denon D7000's (unless a co-worker brings their cans over).  I think I'm going to sell my Icon HDP to a coworker who prefers it over the NFB-12 (if he wants to buy it lol).  I personally prefer several things about the NFB-12
   
  Low and High gain option - I use it strictly on high gain.  It lets me play music more quietly at the lowest level as well as louder at the highest level vs my HDP which really has a much narrower volume window - if I go too low there is a panning issue on the HDP and when I crank it, it gets nowhere near as loud as the NFB-12.  I'd say the DAC is probably a bit better on the Nuforce although I have found myself hearing new details i'd never noticed with other stereo's nor the Nuforce when using the NFB-12.  I would also say the HDP has better highs than the NFB-12 but fortunately, this helps bring out the mids in my D7000s (addition by subraction).  So I would say if you have a bright headphone, get a NFB-12.  If the highs are dark on your cans, go with a HDP.  If you are in the middle as I feel the d7000 are I think you'll be ok with either.
   
  Take all this with a grain of salt, I haven't done a side by side, rather listen to one for a few days and then switch to the other so it's nowhere near a true A/B comparison. 
   
  My friend who prefers the HDP is using some dre beats cans FYI.


----------



## turn1200

One more thing I forgot to mention - the HDP is way way way smaller which could be a concern for many (it is for my coworker).


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





movi said:


> went on a shopping spree... have RS1 and DT990/600 on the way to plug into my NFB-12


 

  
  These should be pretty fun, especially the DT990 on the NFB-12 - really nice combo.
   
  When I was letting my friend compare his RS-1 to my Beyer T1 (he's interested in upgrading), I got to try his RS-1 on the NFB-12 and it seemed like a good combo. I prefer the DT990 to the RS-1 overall, though.


----------



## turimbar1

I just got my nfb12 today, and it sounds goood, I was a bit disappointed at first, but I kept listening, and started picking up the details better. I really need more time listening to it, but thus far it is rendering my dave brubeck music beautifully. On high gain mode it can drive my orthos past anything anyone would want to listen to, which just shows how powerful it is.


----------



## Pine

Just got mine today after two and a half months of waiting, rescheduling, and postponing. 
  It's my first amp, and I've paired it with my first decent set of headphones, my few months old DT770's. 
  I've tried changing from it and just my soundcard, and the difference really is phenomenal; there really _is _no feedback. There are some parts in songs that you suddenly pick up with the NFB-12 that you've never heard, and I know everybody says this, but it really refreshes your music. Smooths the music out, neutralizes it, makes it flow like it never has. Truly soothing to the ears.
   
  As a junior audiophile, I think this is one of the best purchases I've ever made.


----------



## neddamttocs

Just got mine today like other people, all i can say is wow. Good sound out of the box.
   
  As Im listening now it is better then my Maverick D1.
   
   
  Listening to Vivaldi Cello Concerto in G minor for 2 Cellos right now and at passages i can hear the players breathing and their bows bouncing off the strings, something i never heard on the D1.
   
  More impressions will come after there has been some burn in period done.


----------



## jimmyzfu

Hi, All
   
  Just got my NFB-12 few days ago.  Can someone please confirm that it will not work with iPad1 using the camera kit.  I tried it a few times but can't get it to work. 
   
  Thanks.
   
  Jimmy


----------



## turimbar1

this dac/amp is truly magical, it just brings every piece alive, unfortunately my orthos are modded in such a way that they are boosted in the mids, So the highs and bass are overshadowed by the doubly boosted mids (a warm amp and warm headphones together).
   
  My tf10s benefit greatly from this amp/dac, they sound absolutely amazing. I believe it is partly because the tf10s have such sparkling highs and deep lows, that the mids get overshadowed. The NFB 12 brings the mids right out.
   
  Ps. the unit is much smaller than I imagined, I would almost call it portable if it was able to run off a usb alone. It is no larger than an external cd drive.


----------



## Kevin11

Has anyone tried NFB-12 with B&W P5?   What do you think?


----------



## tim3320070

I can confirm that using the Digital Interface (with PSU) with the 12 does improve sound over the built-in USB. It's not huge but noticeable to me. More 3D-like sound, a step closer to the music.
  Whether or not spending $200 on a converter for a $200 DAC/Amp is worth it is the question (I don't think so) but I use the DI for my Phoenix/Ref-8 rig and already had it.
   
  This also sounds really good with the D7000.


----------



## publicholiday

I was thinking to upgrade a better dac amp combo, how is this compare to the matrix mini i dac in terms of sound quality? not only headphone, i want it to pair with studio monitors as well...any opinions pls?


----------



## rhymer2k

hello, can the nfb-12 still be ordered from audio-gd? Also, how does it compare with something like the octovart o1 or yulong dah1. I am thinking of using with my dt 150 but as its a rare can i can't seem to get feedback on synergy and if it would work. Any help would be appreciated


----------



## zenki14

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I can confirm that using the Digital Interface (with PSU) with the 12 does improve sound over the built-in USB. It's not huge but noticeable to me. More 3D-like sound, a step closer to the music.
> Whether or not spending $200 on a converter for a $200 DAC/Amp is worth it is the question (I don't think so) but I use the DI for my Phoenix/Ref-8 rig and already had it.
> 
> This also sounds really good with the D7000.


 

 Do you have the DI ver. A or B?
  I want another person confirming PC coax to DI ver. A coax to NFB-12 coax being a pretty good improvement.


----------



## Elanzer

publicholiday said:


> I was thinking to upgrade a better dac amp combo, how is this compare to the matrix mini i dac in terms of sound quality? not only headphone, i want it to pair with studio monitors as well...any opinions pls?





It has a much better amp than the matrix mini i in power output and design (mostly due to limits in keeping it's small size), the DAC section is probably a matter of taste - the matrix mini i is more analytical and the NFB-12 more musical. You'd probably get more bass and more mids out of the NFB-12, and less highs. It really depends on what headphones you're using, if you were using 250-Ohm or higher headphones you wouldn't really want to use the matrix mini i over the NFB-12.



rhymer2k said:


> hello, can the nfb-12 still be ordered from audio-gd? Also, how does it compare with something like the octovart o1 or yulong dah1. I am thinking of using with my dt 150 but as its a rare can i can't seem to get feedback on synergy and if it would work. Any help would be appreciated




I'm not too sure on all the characteristics of the DT-150, but if it follows the beyerdynamic house sound the NFB-12 will work well with it. Any headphone with a "U" shaped frequency response (powerful lows and highs, reduced mids) will sound nice on the NFB-12.


----------



## JaMo

Hi all.

 I have an update on the impressions of the comparison between the NFB-11 and the NFB-12.

 After a longer burn-in-period on the NFB-12 ...of approx. 400 hours it started to open up more and the result differs less to the NFB-11(!)

 I am using the DI w TCXO, USB-in, upsampling to 96k as before, to get the flat response of the -12, and I am feeding both the -11 and the -12
 simultaneously coax in. I have as You all understand, been using the same source, configuration, music, volumelevel and just plugged between the two.

 Right now and With the HD650's w "RG178 ag"-cable the difference is very hard to spot. And this even with very high resolution-recordings.

 At this moment I think the NFB-12 is a better value/money because of this and the fact that all inputs are present and wellworking on it.

 Worth mentioning may be that the DI has been burning in day and night with various music since a couple of weeks... approx 600-700 h. Maybe this have a slight influence of the result but I address it mainly to the stabilising of the components in the analog parts during the burn in.

 So in this situation the NFB-12 pairs very good the HD650.

 Bargain? Oh yes sure! Go for it.

 /Jan


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Do you have the DI ver. A or B?
> I want another person confirming PC coax to DI ver. A coax to NFB-12 coax being a pretty good improvement.


 

 No,  I have v.B


----------



## bhaishaki

I have had my NFB - 12 on burn-in for around 300 hours. The bass increased after 40 hours and reduced after that. The sound stage grew out of head around at around 70-100 hours may be. In between the sound felt like less clean. Now after around 300 hours it sounds very clean and resolving but lean on the bass and narrow soundstage compared with my ordinary intel audio laptop out and s:flo2. It lacks the bass impact too. I'm using with DT880/600 and HD555.I


----------



## MARSHH

Random question, how does the DAC compare to the Musiland Monitor 02?
   
  I have a few headphones and I may purchase this if the amp is decent. But I will primarily use it for my monitors.


----------



## j2kei

yes my nfb-12 is showing very drastic changes as well. its pretty crazy haha. can't really say too much about the nfb-11 no usb's burn-in. it has more bass and more natural sound, but it still lacks that feel and live sound that the nfb-12 has.
  
  Quote: 





bhaishaki said:


> I have had my NFB - 12 on burn-in for around 300 hours. The bass increased after 40 hours and reduced after that. The sound stage grew out of head around at around 70-100 hours may be. In between the sound felt like less clean. Now after around 300 hours it sounds very clean and resolving but lean on the bass and narrow soundstage compared with my ordinary intel audio laptop out and s:flo2. It lacks the bass impact too. I'm using with DT880/600 and HD555.I


----------



## vella

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I can confirm that using the Digital Interface (with PSU) with the 12 does improve sound over the built-in USB. It's not huge but noticeable to me. More 3D-like sound, a step closer to the music.
> Whether or not spending $200 on a converter for a $200 DAC/Amp is worth it is the question (I don't think so) but I use the DI for my Phoenix/Ref-8 rig and already had it.
> 
> This also sounds really good with the D7000.


 
  Do you notice the same improvement even without the PSU?. I am valuating buying the Digital Interface from Audio GD, without the dedicated PSU module.
  Good idea?
  How does it compare with Musiland 01?


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





vella said:


> Do you notice the same improvement even without the PSU?. I am valuating buying the Digital Interface from Audio GD, without the dedicated PSU module.
> Good idea?
> How does it compare with Musiland 01?


 
  The PSU makes a very small difference, I feel it requires a more resolving system to make it worth it (which does not include the NFB-12). I would not recommend buying the DI for just the NFB-12, I would put the money into better headphones or one of their better DAC/Amps.


----------



## turimbar1

I am noticing a big difference in outlets in this house, it IS an older house, but I had no idea how different it would be at different times. right now I have it on high gain at max volume and it is just right, maybe even too quiet, then at other times I've had it at 2 oclock on low gain and it is plenty powerful (same outlet, middle of the day instead of at night). How strange.


----------



## vella

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> The PSU makes a very small difference, I feel it requires a more resolving system to make it worth it (which does not include the NFB-12). I would not recommend buying the DI for just the NFB-12, I would put the money into better headphones or one of their better DAC/Amps.


 

 Thanks a lot Tim
  Gonna follow your advice
  BTW, just swapped Ultrasone 2500 for Sennheiser HD600: just another world with the NFB 12
   
  Greetings from Italy


----------



## winnersan

Quote: 





bhaishaki said:


> I have had my NFB - 12 on burn-in for around 300 hours. The bass increased after 40 hours and reduced after that. The sound stage grew out of head around at around 70-100 hours may be. In between the sound felt like less clean. Now after around 300 hours it sounds very clean and resolving but lean on the bass and narrow soundstage compared with my ordinary intel audio laptop out and s:flo2. It lacks the bass impact too. I'm using with DT880/600 and HD555.I


 

 I've just placed a order of NFB 12 a month ago.
  Do you mean that NFB 12 has a narrower soundstage and less bass than s:flo2 ? That would be quite disappointing.


----------



## bhaishaki

No not really. Sorry for the pre-matured conclusion. It was not even a conclusion but was just an observation posted. Now I have a little over 300 hrs. Didn't really count after about 300 hrs. Might have crossed 360 hrs. It feels smooth with tight bass and good soundstage and separation. I was able to listen to it continuously and still didn't feel fatigued. Also found sound difference between media player applications. I tried Amarok and Bangarang. The latter sounder a little softer - less impactful. This made this player sound a little smoother compared to Amarok. I think it is still not burned-in completely. I kept it switched on after my last post(not continuously) and listened a couple of days ago  and saw this change. Yes as repeated here many times here I agree that audio-gd gears require a lot of burn-in. When I last described I was not all that impressed. I thought I have paid only for a marginal improvement over laptop sound. Now I'm more than impressed. Wanted to post the impressions earlier but had exams 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 This is my first DAC/Amp. I was both skeptic and curious. Now to tell you I'm already happy with my purchase.
  
  Quote: 





winnersan said:


> I've just placed a order of NFB 12 a month ago.
> Do you mean that NFB 12 has a narrower soundstage and less bass than s:flo2 ? That would be quite disappointing.


----------



## Fongk

Hm I've been using this thing for about a week and i'm noticing that theres less bass compared and a bit clearer compared to when it was new. I don't know if its the dac/amp or the dt880 because both are new. It seems that there is also less detail than before...


----------



## winnersan

Thanks for your share and the explanation. Now I'm expecting mine. And I'm considering a DT880/600ohm working with it too .


----------



## Sylarr

Quote: 





bhaishaki said:


> I have had my NFB - 12 on burn-in for around 300 hours. The bass increased after 40 hours and reduced after that. The sound stage grew out of head around at around 70-100 hours may be. In between the sound felt like less clean. Now after around 300 hours it sounds very clean and resolving but lean on the bass and narrow soundstage compared with my ordinary intel audio laptop out and s:flo2. It lacks the bass impact too. I'm using with DT880/600 and HD555.I


 


 Which headphone do you like better? And why?
   
  I just received my NFB-12 and I'm using it with a HD555 (modded to HD595) which is my first decent headphone. I'm looking to maybe upgrade my headphone to fully exploit the NFB-12 and am wondering how my current headphone compares to other headphones for around 150-200E.


----------



## bhaishaki

I'm also using a HD555 with HD595 mod. I'm just a beginner with audiophile stuff. I can just describe in simple terms. I really couldn't believe the dramatic difference I'm observing with NFB-12 in the last 3-4 days with about 10 hrs of burn-in each day. I cant just believe what I'm hearing. Between HD555 and DT880 I think I can make the following analogy. With NFB-12 the HD555 sounds like a very good home audio system with analogue like sound quality. Warm and right. Vocals come out nice. Bass is not well extended(quality of HD555 even with other sources too) Everything sounds "sweet" with this setup.Soundstage is good. To me it clearly feels out of head. Switching to DT880, it sounds like a cinema hall. I mean the separation, distinct clarity of vocals, instruments and bass, excellent extension in both ends, bass impact and a neat soundstage. DT880 sounds like more authentic and a serious setup. One word - awesome. Clearly this DAC/Amp does something more than ordinary listening. It gives an immersive listening experience. Reading about HD650's lush mids and musical signature makes me long for it. It's currently out of range for me. I bought DT880 after reading reviews here. It was comparatively cheaper. I'm more than happy I bought it. 
   
  My HD555 tend to have some "overflows" with vocals. Something like that peaks out of normal range than it should be. Cannot describe it properly. It would feel very irritating as bad as very bright audio output. I'm seeing it fixed with NFB-12. With DT880 and NFB-12 everything feels right controlled and hand perfected as if each music was mixed each time within NFB-12.
   
  Maybe I'm too excited because I'm hearing this kind of sound for the first time in the last 5 years since when I got my first serious headphone HD497. DT880 is my most recent one. Got only 2-3 months back. Before this NFB-12 my setup was basic with Dell inspiron on-board sound or Cowon D2/i9, S:Flo2, ipod touch 1st gen. etc. I'm seeing a very likeable change with NFB-12.
   
   
   But one thing I can assure that my headphones have never sounded like this with any source. That much I can say. Also couldn't believe my ordinary mp3s could pack so much in them. I like both HD555 and DT880 with NFB-12. When I want to listen casually and relaxed I reach for HD555. When I want to listen more engagingly (not seriously) I reach for DT880. It is equally relaxing too albeit in a different manner.
   
  Not sure how much of these really answers your question with a lot of detour about NFB-12, my new purchase. I think fellow headfiers would be able to advice more on which headphone to go with NFB - 12 to get the most out of it.

  
  Quote: 





sylarr said:


> Which headphone do you like better? And why?
> 
> I just received my NFB-12 and I'm using it with a HD555 (modded to HD595) which is my first decent headphone. I'm looking to maybe upgrade my headphone to fully exploit the NFB-12 and am wondering how my current headphone compares to other headphones for around 150-200E.


----------



## Jupe

I didn't notice anyone mention this before, but I'm curious.. Does anyone, upon turning the DAC on, hear a small quiet "click" (other than the click of the actual power switch)? This only applies when the DAC is not being used as a preamp, and is set to headphone output.
   
  I know this might seem trivial, but I got scared when I didn't hear that familiar click earlier, and no sound was coming out of the amp. I realized the output switch was simply in the wrong mode, but that's when I noticed that this small 'click' was the only reason i recognized something was 'off.' I'm curious if this is a universal sound among DAC/amps, or something unique to the NFB-12 (or even just my model).


----------



## turimbar1

I do not notice any click except when I go from low to high gain (which is expected) I will keep listening and see. there really should not be any click though, the pot is very silent for me


----------



## Jupe

I should clarify--the click I'm referring to is part of the actual NFB-12, not reflected in the headphones themselves. I was only curious if anyone else experienced this, since it doesn't make a peep when I turn it on, and it's set to variable or a fixed output.


----------



## bhaishaki

I do get this click when I power on within NFB-12, a small mechanical sound. However I don't get any click in the headphone when I move from low to high gain.


----------



## ohhgourami

My NFB-10ES makes this click sound also.  It is probably normal.
   
   
   
  @turimbar1, I hope you are enjoying your new source!


----------



## sizzlincok

It seems that this DAC is excellent for it's price, as it surpases many DACs for the same price range it seems...
   
  You all make me want to kind of get one now... Yet I splurged on a Maverick D1, and recently a Musiland Monitor 02, AUNE amp, ALSO the Maverick A1, and a Topping TP21... FML
  Now I'm thinking I should have went straight for this!


----------



## zenki14

Just finished 200 hours of burn in for my T1.  NFB-12 over 400h.
   
  Really good stuff.
  Since I'm impressed with the dual WM8741 and overall quality I think I'll go straight to the NFB-10WM when the time comes.  I hope it's not discontinued before that.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





jupe said:


> I didn't notice anyone mention this before, but I'm curious.. Does anyone, upon turning the DAC on, hear a small quiet "click" (other than the click of the actual power switch)? This only applies when the DAC is not being used as a preamp, and is set to headphone output.
> 
> I know this might seem trivial, but I got scared when I didn't hear that familiar click earlier, and no sound was coming out of the amp. I realized the output switch was simply in the wrong mode, but that's when I noticed that this small 'click' was the only reason i recognized something was 'off.' I'm curious if this is a universal sound among DAC/amps, or something unique to the NFB-12 (or even just my model).


 

 All his equipment does this and it is normal


----------



## superchan

Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Just finished 200 hours of burn in for my T1.  NFB-12 over 400h.
> 
> Really good stuff.
> Since I'm impressed with the dual WM8741 and overall quality I think I'll go straight to the NFB-10WM when the time comes.  I hope it's not discontinued before that.


 


  lol when the time come there will a improve version from it
  at the moment use a Audio GD FUN with the single WM8741 longer then 1 year
  i have order NFB-10WM  + DI +clock upgrade +PSU lets hope it arrive in 30 days.


----------



## zenki14

Quote: 





superchan said:


> lol when the time come there will a improve version from it
> at the moment use a Audio GD FUN with the single WM8741 longer then 1 year
> i have order NFB-10WM  + DI +clock upgrade +PSU lets hope it arrive in 30 days.


 

 Currently with their orders and staff training it seems Kingwa is taking a rest in building new products...
  however I guess you're right, by the time I can afford a NFB-10WM in few months they might come up with something else.
   
  Maybe right now NFB-10 has the longest wait in the current line up, so I want to ask as reference, when did you order?


----------



## turimbar1

Oh I am loving it! I need to modify my t50s for it though as it is really mid-centric right now, the highs and lows sound good, but the mids are overpowering. It is absolutely amazing with my UE TF10s though! Makes their midrange excellent.
   
  Also that click is completely normal, I get it as well.


----------



## superchan

Quote: 





zenki14 said:


> Currently with their orders and staff training it seems Kingwa is taking a rest in building new products...
> however I guess you're right, by the time I can afford a NFB-10WM in few months they might come up with something else.
> 
> Maybe right now NFB-10 has the longest wait in the current line up, so I want to ask as reference, when did you order?


 

 well this time i didn't order direct from them
  i order from there agents.
  i pay this week friday
   
  but if you aren't go for a balanced setup the combo *[size=x-small] NFB-3 + [/size]**[size=x-small] C-2.1  [/size]**[size=x-small][/size]*is a much beter choice


----------



## ohhgourami

Quote: 





turimbar1 said:


> Oh I am loving it! I need to modify my t50s for it though as it is really mid-centric right now, the highs and lows sound good, but the mids are overpowering. It is absolutely amazing with my UE TF10s though! Makes their midrange excellent.
> 
> Also that click is completely normal, I get it as well.


 

 That is good to hear!  There's no such thing as overpowering mids 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I'm finally going to receive my DI + PSU in a few days.  I've been waiting over 3 weeks for it!  Then my setup will be done!  I'll be stuck in stagnation for a long time...unless there's a real source of income


----------



## turimbar1

Quote: 





ohhgourami said:


> That is good to hear!  There's no such thing as overpowering mids
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I totally hear you, I am DONE with my setup right now, if anything I will be slimming down my rig and keeping only the best stuff (portable and non portable). 
   
  I was really amazed at how much difference the nfb12 made with my 32 ohm iems, the difference is night and day between the DAC and the standard output, much more detailed, full, just sounds terrible out of anything else right now.


----------



## ohhgourami

Quote: 





turimbar1 said:


> I totally hear you, I am DONE with my setup right now, if anything I will be slimming down my rig and keeping only the best stuff (portable and non portable).
> 
> I was really amazed at how much difference the nfb12 made with my 32 ohm iems, the difference is night and day between the DAC and the standard output, much more detailed, full, just sounds terrible out of anything else right now.


 

 agreed about putting IEMs into it.  even though my IEMs are so damn efficient, I didn't think it would make a difference.  I supposed that's what happens when you put in 50x the output!


----------



## Elanzer

I wouldn't say it's the amp section of the NFB-12 that's making the huge difference for you guys on your IEMs, it's going to be the amazing DAC section. Hooking my LD MKIII tube amp to the NFB-12, it still leaves me with that powerful, fleshed out sound, but when I hook up the MKIII to my PC's onboard sound, it sounds like crap in comparison.

Even if you use very easy to drive headphones, the NFB-12 will still be a massive improvement because of it's DAC section.


----------



## ohhgourami

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> I wouldn't say it's the amp section of the NFB-12 that's making the huge difference for you guys on your IEMs, it's going to be the amazing DAC section. Hooking my LD MKIII tube amp to the NFB-12, it still leaves me with that powerful, fleshed out sound, but when I hook up the MKIII to my PC's onboard sound, it sounds like crap in comparison.
> 
> Even if you use very easy to drive headphones, the NFB-12 will still be a massive improvement because of it's DAC section.


 

 That is interesting info to know!  Man...I wish I could try a T1 on my source...my second favorite high end can.  Also wish I could try a a WM version of my source too. 
   
  Sorry for posting on this thread since I don't own an NFB-12 or have heard it.  Just curious to see what turimbar1 had to say about it.  I know he had waited a long time to get it.


----------



## bhaishaki

How do you find the difference between NFB-12 DAC out fed to LK MKIII and NFB-12 HP out? Which do you like with what headphone?
  
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> I wouldn't say it's the amp section of the NFB-12 that's making the huge difference for you guys on your IEMs, it's going to be the amazing DAC section. Hooking my LD MKIII tube amp to the NFB-12, it still leaves me with that powerful, fleshed out sound, but when I hook up the MKIII to my PC's onboard sound, it sounds like crap in comparison.
> 
> Even if you use very easy to drive headphones, the NFB-12 will still be a massive improvement because of it's DAC section.


----------



## winnersan

I‘ve got my NFB12 few days  ago，and I'm not satisfying its soundstage，though I know it needs more run in.
  This gear gives a smooth and warm sound which enable me to listen music continuously, but also decrease my excitement from music. It has good mids and sweet vocal, maybe bayer's headphone will benefit from this but for audio-technica's it's excessive. By the way I use AD1000PRM with it.
   
  If the soundstage will have a obvious improvement after fully run in, I can accept its performance . I 'm waiting.


----------



## Elanzer

bhaishaki said:


> How do you find the difference between NFB-12 DAC out fed to LK MKIII and NFB-12 HP out? Which do you like with what headphone?




The only remarkable difference that I can tell is that the NFB-12's HP out has less soundstage and is much more forward than the MKIII. I recently ordered some new tubes for my MKIII that are considered a big upgrade, so that might change things but for now it's really preference based. I prefer to use the MKIII over the NFB-12's HP out for my T1.

I have lots of different headphones, but the only pair I actually use are my T1, they're just leaps and bounds better so I don't bother using anything else at home. I use ath-m50 as my main portable headphones, but I've only briefly connected them to my home setup out of curiosity.


----------



## ohhgourami

I can understand why'd you only your T1.  Such a big leap over the DT880 600ohm.  Just a pleasure to listen to and so comfy too!!!  Too bad if I had a pair, I'd rarely use them...


----------



## bhaishaki

Yes I agree with you that the soundstage with NFB-12 is not so good. Momentarily at around 360 hr burn-in the soundstage seemed to have improved. But after around 30 hrs or more burn-in soundstage has reduced back. This is really worrying me. Would be worth to know how does the Audio-GD FUN/Sparrow perform in this aspect. Otherwise I have no complaints. Also agree with forward mids comment.
  
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## winnersan

I found that NFB12 seems sound better ,less noise and better soundstage, since I left it power on from noon.
  Maybe a warm up period after turning it on is the factor affecting  the sounds .
   
  But I don't know how to confirm the difference .


----------



## 169300

I hate being the impatient type. My NFB-12 isn't shipping for another 3 weeks. Should be a good pairing for my Lyr and HE-5s


----------



## Elanzer

bhaishaki said:


> Yes I agree with you that the soundstage with NFB-12 is not so good. Momentarily at around 360 hr burn-in the soundstage seemed to have improved. But after around 30 hrs or more burn-in soundstage has reduced back. This is really worrying me. Would be worth to know how does the Audio-GD FUN/Sparrow perform in this aspect. Otherwise I have no complaints. Also agree with forward mids comment.




I had the Sparrow with AD1852 and WM8741 chips before the NFB-12, and while I never A/B'd them, the NFB-12 sounds very similar overall to the Sparrow with WM8741 as you'd expect, you could almost think they're the same unit besides the fact that the NFB-12 has a dac-out + gain control while the Sparrow doesn't. Sparrow with AD1852 was on the neutral/bright side of things and sounded much different. 

FUN probably sounds different because of the use of opamps rather than a fully discrete design, but I've never heard it. The DAC section itself, probably sounds very similar to the NFB-12/Sparrow.


----------



## Sam-Fi

how does this pair with dt880/600 or (the opposite) he5le?


----------



## Dhimay

Quote: 





bhaishaki said:


> Yes I agree with you that the soundstage with NFB-12 is not so good. Momentarily at around 360 hr burn-in the soundstage seemed to have improved. But after around 30 hrs or more burn-in soundstage has reduced back. This is really worrying me. Would be worth to know how does the Audio-GD FUN/Sparrow perform in this aspect. Otherwise I have no complaints. Also agree with forward mids comment.


 
  What headphones are you using with NFB-12? And I'm wondering whether you're comparing the soundstage to some other amp/dac or just off of soundcard/dap.
   
  Currently, I'm running my Denon D2000 directly off of mac mini, occasionally channeled through the headphone-out of a speaker power amp (Kenwood KM 208 -- minimal improvement). I'd appreciate it if those with D2000 + NFB-12 combo could comment on the soundstage, as compared with soundcard/dap or some other amp/dac.
   
  For instance, would it be a definite improvement over something like FiiO E7 or even E7/E9 combo?


----------



## _Spanky_

Hey all. I'm going to be buying my NFB-12 in the next couple of days. Any idea on when I should be expecting it. I read a while back that there were huge orders and even larger delays.


----------



## Downtheline1973

Quote: 





> Hey all. I'm going to be buying my NFB-12 in the next couple of days. Any idea on when I should be expecting it. I read a while back that there were huge orders and even larger delays.


 
   
  I ordered mine from Pacific Valve on the 5th of April - no word yet on when mine is shipping.


----------



## _Spanky_

Really? I sent Audio-GD an e-mail after I posted here and asked about ordering. They gave me an order form and on it it says: "Estimate Shipping: Around 15th June" and I haven't even ordered yet!


----------



## el aye

Quote: 





_spanky_ said:


> Hey all. I'm going to be buying my NFB-12 in the next couple of days. Any idea on when I should be expecting it. I read a while back that there were huge orders and even larger delays.


 


  I ordered 4/18, got the shipping email on 5/20, tracking number on 5/24, and received on 5/27 (I'm on the east coast).


----------



## Tilpo

I just recieved this little piece of audio equipment today, and I'm nothing short of impessed!

The DAC is a very large upgrade relative to the 3.5mm jack of my motherboard (although it is said to be relatively good for a motherboard). It really adds detail to the sound and removes the annoying hiss I hear at quiet parts, or when no music is playing. On top of that it also makes the sound a bit smoother and easier to listen to, maybe this is also because there is no hiss anymore. 
I have also compared the headphone output of the NFB-12 to that of my Little Dot MKIV SE. 
Here I find that the MKIV definitely wins, which is to be expected given that it also costs more . I'm still an amateur audiophile and I don't have much experience in commenting on the SQ of gear, but what I find most notable that the MKIV has far better soundstage. We're still speaking about headphones so the soundstage isn't perfect on the bests of setups, but I still find that the NFB-12 is lacking quite a lot when it comes to soundstage. 
Then when it come to the sound signature of both amps, I find that the NFB-12 is lacking a bit of bass, and the mids of the MKIV are more detailed and smooth. 

I haven't yet burned him in, so I'll tell you if I have changed my opinion in a week or so, but I think not. This is simply because the MKIV is a better amplifier, and although the NFB-12 might improve, it still can't compete with the Little Dot MKIV SE. 

On a whole other note, when I ordered Edwin told me that it would ship around the 10th of June which would have been 25 days from then (I placed the order on the 16th of May). 
But in fact it shipped one week early on the 3rd of June, and arrived a mere three days later at my doorstep.
Customer of Audio-GD is also good, although I have noticed their English is quite bad, which wasn't the case for the customer service of Little Dot, a similar Hong Kong based brand.


----------



## ohhgourami

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I just recieved this little piece of audio equipment today, and I'm nothing short of impessed!
> 
> The DAC is a very large upgrade relative to the 3.5mm jack of my motherboard (although it is said to be relatively good for a motherboard). It really adds detail to the sound and removes the annoying hiss I hear at quiet parts, or when no music is playing. On top of that it also makes the sound a bit smoother and easier to listen to, maybe this is also because there is no hiss anymore.
> I have also compared the headphone output of the NFB-12 to that of my Little Dot MKIV SE.
> ...


 

 But you must remember the NFB-12 is a DAC/amp while the MKIV SE is only an amp.  Don't worry though, the NFB-12 will probably improve a lot in SQ with some burn in.
   
  Yes, audio-gd has bad english.  It's hard to get Edwin to elaborate on the products.  I had my gf type out all my questions in chinese which Edwin replied in chinese too and my questions were answered in great detail.


----------



## Tilpo

ohhgourami said:


> But you must remember the NFB-12 is a DAC/amp while the MKIV SE is only an amp.  Don't worry though, the NFB-12 will probably improve a lot in SQ with some burn in.
> 
> Yes, audio-gd has bad english.  It's hard to get Edwin to elaborate on the products.  I had my gf type out all my questions in chinese which Edwin replied in chinese too and my questions were answered in great detail.



I agree with him not providing great detail; I asked him some question and he literally copied the text from the site (not even changing the font), leaving my question pretty much unanswered. 

I know the NFB-12 is an amp/DAC, but that doesn't take away the fact that the Little Dot MKIV SE is obviously better at the amplification (the DAC of the MKIV SE is rather mediocre, on the other hand). Although in my opinion it wasn't so much of a fair fight, the Little Dot costing twice as much. 
I actually bought the NFB-12 mainly as a DAC because of two reasons, even it being a combination it still competes with dedicated DAC's of the same price, 
and the second reason is because the NFB-12 is semi-portable. If I go on a holiday or something I can always take it with me.


----------



## Elanzer

tilpo said:


> I know the NFB-12 is an amp/DAC, but that doesn't take away the fact that the Little Dot MKIV SE is obviously better at the amplification (the DAC of the MKIV SE is rather mediocre, on the other hand).




The MK IV SE has no DAC in it at all, DAC means digital to analog converter and when you're running a wire from your onboard's analog out to your MKIV SE the onboard audio is acting as your DAC, which is really poor in comparison to the NFB-12.

Even if you're just using the NFB-12 as a DAC and ignoring the amp part, it's a steal in comparison to everything else available in this price range.


----------



## ohhgourami

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for mentioning that cuz I was VERY confused when he mentioned that he uses the dac section of his MKIV SE!  I was like WAIT WHAT THAT HAS A DAC?!


----------



## Tilpo

elanzer said:


> The MK IV SE has no DAC in it at all, DAC means digital to analog converter and when you're running a wire from your onboard's analog out to your MKIV SE the onboard audio is acting as your DAC, which is really poor in comparison to the NFB-12.



It was meant as a joke, but maybe I was not explicit enough.




elanzer said:


> Even if you're just using the NFB-12 as a DAC and ignoring the amp part, it's a steal in comparison to everything else available in this price range



That's what I said. It's excellent even if completely ignoring the amp part (although in my case it could be useful every once in while)


----------



## Eunegis

Hi HeadFiers,
   
  got mine.
   
  For those who are still in doubt I would like to post my first impressions after ~24h. For comparison I have a Fun with all available modules. I figured out that I prefer the WM8741/WM8805 combo over the rather bright AD1852 and the DIR9001, the latter giving me slightly less detail, air and bass warmth. I prefer the Earth OPA module over the Moon and the Sun which both give me a little less involving sound (the Sun being better than the Moon for me), even though both may fit into appropriate chains. At the moment I'm listening through Beyer DT880/250, and I've connected the NFB-12 to a dedicated music PC (cMP²) through A-gd's Digital Interface (DI).
   
  I'm listening to a wide variety of music, a lot of classical, but also ethno/world, lounge and some modern pop music.
   
   
  The NFB-12 is somewhat airyer and more spacious than the Fun right from the start, even before burning in. The soundstage seems to be a little more recessed which turns it into a more natural one, its width/depth-relation is intuitive to me.
   
  Many here call the NFB-12 very warm and sweet, and I've got the impression that it is supposed to be the most clearly so adjusted device in relation to all other A-gd gear. But I can't confirm that. Maybe I'm spoiled by the Fun which might have a similar personality soundwise, so that I'm no longer able do differentiate adequately. But the NFB-12 to me sounds even slightly less warmly coloured and slightly more neutral than the Fun/WM8741/WM8805/Earth, even though it is still very pleasant and surely on the musical side rather than on the analytical.
   
  I hear no veil and no harsh, and bass is what I would call normal, not noticably lean, bloomy or dull. I'm sure there's punchyer bass out there, but I'm not missing anything.
   
  All in all I'm truly surprised what this little thing deliveres. I was sceptical because its supposed to have a weaker power supply than the Fun (and I wondered if I should have taken an NFB-2 instead), but I don't notice any practical difference. In fact everything seems to sound a little more refined and less grany compared to the Fun. Its definitely a keeper, especially for the price (€200 at Audiophonics/Fr.), and I guess my search has come to an end for some time.
   
   
  I'll report back after two or three weeks of burning in.


----------



## Vall

Hi!
   
  As discussed before, there are some changes on frequency response curve depending on the signal's resolution. I think it's a good idea to aways mention, when reviewing NFB-12, how it has been linked and what kind of signal/source has been used. A brief line like one of these examples would be helpful:
   
  Laptop > NFB (usb) - flac/wav upsampled to 96k
   
  or
   
  PC > NFB (usb) - mp3 and flac/wav 44k
   
  or
   
  Media Center > NFB (coax) - flac/wav 44/96k


----------



## Eunegis

Yes Vall, you're right.
   
  In my case at the moment:
  Music PC (44/16 .flac upsampled to 96/24 through Foobar's Sox) -> DI via USB (upsampling to 192) -> NFB-12 > Beyer DT880/250
   
  I find DI's upsampling slightly more refined in the hights at the moment, but I'm still testing since differences are very subtle.
  In the future I'll change software to cMP² to use upsampling to 96 through SRC (secret rabbit code) - its even softer and clearer than Sox.
  I'll see if I'll keep DI's upsampling then or not.


----------



## moocow111

How is the NFB-12 with Denons? I'm thinking about upgrading my amp/dac to the nfb-12, but I'm not sure what it will sound like with Denon D2000s


----------



## tim3320070

Very nice with my D7000- it's a quality product and would sound good with about anything IMO.


----------



## Elanzer

moocow111 said:


> How is the NFB-12 with Denons? I'm thinking about upgrading my amp/dac to the nfb-12, but I'm not sure what it will sound like with Denon D2000s




It has good synergy with "U" shaped frequency response headphones, D2000 falls into this category so it should work well.


----------



## Gorgatron

My question is how are those D2K's. I have the d1100 and want them d2k
  Quote: 





moocow111 said:


> How is the NFB-12 with Denons? I'm thinking about upgrading my amp/dac to the nfb-12, but I'm not sure what it will sound like with Denon D2000s


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





moocow111 said:


> How is the NFB-12 with Denons? I'm thinking about upgrading my amp/dac to the nfb-12, but I'm not sure what it will sound like with Denon D2000s


 

 I use my NFB-12 at the office with LA2000s and am quite happy with the combination. Bass is tight, mids are pleasant, treble is relaxed but still detailed, soundstage is quite well presented. Granted, the Lawton mod significantly changes the Denons, but they're still in the same ballpark as the standard D2000s.


----------



## agaro

hi guys, I'm looking to upgrade my current hifiman ef2 (with mullards cv4100), and buy nfb-12.
   
  Now I have few question about this upgrade. Do you think it's worth it to change ef2 for nfb-12, I mean is the difference between this two significant? 
  Secondly does anyone compare nfb12 to matrix mini-i, especially with grado headphones? I think nfb12 is better option, because of its fuller, analog sound, but I'm not 100% sure.


----------



## bsaac

I have a DAC19 and am considering the NFB 12
   
  Would I notice much of a difference between the two?
   
  I am currently using it with a WA6 SE and some 701's


----------



## Bobbika

I absolutely love the NFB12 with the Denons, the warmness that comes from the NFB12 together with the emphasized bass of the Denons, make the sub bass really sing in my ears. I mainly listen to electronic music and this is my first setup, but I couldn't be happier with it. 
   
   
   


gorgatron said:


> My question is how are those D2K's. I have the d1100 and want them d2k


----------



## sysfail

Has anyone compared the amp power on the NFB-12 to the FiiO E9? I'm wondering if it is more powerful than my FiiO E9 so if I upgrade to the NFB-12, it can power my orthodynamic Thunderpants better. I know the NFB-12's DAC is definitely a good upgrade from the FiiO E7 and Pure i20's Cirrus 4353 DAC.


----------



## Elanzer

sysfail said:


> Has anyone compared the amp power on the NFB-12 to the FiiO E9? I'm wondering if it is more powerful than my FiiO E9 so if I upgrade to the NFB-12, it can power my orthodynamic Thunderpants better. I know the NFB-12's DAC is definitely a good upgrade from the FiiO E7 and Pure i20's Cirrus 4353 DAC.




At 50-Ohm, NFB-12 is capable of roughly three times the power output of the E9, audio-gd says 1800mw into 50-Ohm. So yeah, it should power your thunderpants better.


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks! I think it'll be a great upgrade from my E9 then.


----------



## zzffnn

Headphone output NFB-12 vs. Sparrow, anyone? I read that someone said they sound similar, just want to confirm.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





bsaac said:


> I have a DAC19 and am considering the NFB 12
> 
> Would I notice much of a difference between the two?
> 
> I am currently using it with a WA6 SE and some 701's


 

  
  You would notice some reduction in technical detail and neutrality by using nfb-12 as dac, but you'd hear wm8741's engaging and unfatiguing sound signature. I don't know about the WA6 SE, but when comparing audio-gd's current domain gear with acss connection versus rca or xlr connection, there is more precise dynamics and high frequencies, partly due to the fact that audio-gd slightly rolls off rca on their acss gear. Something to keep in mind since you use the rca output of your dac19. I have a sparrow, which should be similar to nfb-12, and used to have a dac19mk3. If what you want is a more engaging sound signature, I would suggest trying a dedicated dac or amp by audio-gd meant to make the sound fuller and more musical, like the NFB-2 dac, or C-2 SA.amp.


----------



## Nerio

I waiting for my NFB-12 - ordered 6/19/2011 (I hope less than month).
  I have a question for all those who already have NFB-12.
  Which input is better? USB, Coax or Optical?
  I has both inputs - coax on my motherboard (via Realtek ALC888) and optical (via Hercules Fortissimo IV)
  I read that coax is better than USB, but opinion was from people who have DI.
  Sorry for my horrible english.
  Thanks for any answer.


----------



## zenki14

Quote: 





nerio said:


> I waiting for my NFB-12 - ordered 6/19/2011 (I hope less than month).
> I have a question for all those who already have NFB-12.
> Which input is better? USB, Coax or Optical?
> I has both inputs - coax on my motherboard (via Realtek ALC888) and optical (via Hercules Fortissimo IV)
> ...


 
   
  My onboard sound is Realtek ALC889A.
  I personally feel USB is just slightly better than Coax (has the last touch of treble sharpness), and onboard optical not really different from Coax.
  Difference is so small between the three inputs so I don't really rate one being the best, I just use USB all the time.


----------



## Tilpo

nerio said:


> I waiting for my NFB-12 - ordered 6/19/2011 (I hope less than month).
> I have a question for all those who already have NFB-12.
> Which input is better? USB, Coax or Optical?
> I has both inputs - coax on my motherboard (via Realtek ALC888) and optical (via Hercules Fortissimo IV)
> ...



I personally use USB as it's simply more convenient since I need a 3m cable, and I only have an USB cable that is that long. 
On the other hand, I was unable to hear a real difference between the three, so I don't think it really matters anyway.


----------



## Nerio

@zenki14 and @Tilpo
  Thank you very much for answer 
  I can't wait when Audio-GD finally deliver my NFB-12


----------



## _Spanky_

USB on the NFB-12 should be far better than any motherboard output. Even with digital output, you can't be sure that you're getting a bit-perfect signal from your computer to the DAC. The NFB-12 has the Tenor USB chip which is driverless cross-platform 24/96 bit-perfect. Motherboard audio is a super cheap circuit that is thrown on just because it works and most people (non-audiophiles) have no problem with it. Also, the USB in the NFB-12 uses IIS output instead of S/PDIF which makes for less jitter.


----------



## alerma

5% OFF on all audio-gd products. Does anyone know the reason?


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





alerma said:


> 5% OFF on all audio-gd products. Does anyone know the reason?


 


  "1th July is the 7th years of audio-gd"
   
  they are celebrating


----------



## Nerio

Today i've received NFB-12 (ordered 19/06/2011) )
  I'm very impressed what NFB-12 doing with sound )


----------



## raexx

Received my NFB-12 today.
  Been trying to get it to work but the device wont be recognized in windows 7 ultimate x64.
  It appears as the following devices:
  USB composite device
  USB Input device
  TE7022 audio w/ spdif (generic usb audio).
  But when I'm trying to use the TE7022 as the playback device the only thing that comes out of the device is silence......
   
  Anyone else having the same problem or at least a solution for it? : >


----------



## Nerio

I also use Windows 7 x64 (but Professional) and i change:
  In sound:
  Playback -> TE7022 to default device (if you want only use this device to playback)
  In properties of TE7022 -> supported formats -> check 44,1, 48, 96 kHz
  In properties of TE7022 -> advanced -> default format -> 2 channel, 24 bit, 96 kHz
   
  In foobar2000 -> Output -> TE7022 (DS, WASAPI)
  Also - if you prefer - use resampler to 96 kHz (i use SoX).
   
  In my case i must switch first button to HP on front panel of NFB-12


----------



## raexx

feeling kinda stupid when I realised that I hadn't ticked in the 44.1 khz in the supported formats......>.<
  
  Quote: 





nerio said:


> I also use Windows 7 x64 (but Professional) and i change:
> In sound:
> Playback -> TE7022 to default device (if you want only use this device to playback)
> In properties of TE7022 -> supported formats -> check 44,1, 48, 96 kHz
> ...


----------



## Nerio

I'm glad that works
   
  Photos of the NFB-12 never too much:


----------



## .Sup

nice photo Nerio!


----------



## Tilpo

I ordered a second NFB-12 (for my dad), and I) just received a mail that it has been shipped. 
Can't wait.

I'm going to use it for the Media PC I put downstairs. Currently it has a combination of speakers and amp costing 12,000 gilders. (5,500 euros excluding inflation, or ~8,000 dollars), however the source is a mere Realtek chipset. 
Kind of imbalanced if you ask me: $8,000 versus $0.50 source.


----------



## Kevin11

Audio-GD said EMS is slower shipping to US and sometimes item got damaged.
   
  What is your experience on EMS?
   
  If it is damage when I received, how will Audio-GD handle it?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## zenki14

I had it shipped by EMS.
  And you shouldn't worry about damage, I think chances will be low, since they pack it inside the box like this:

   
  The outer box had just a bit of wear but the NFB-12 was totally fine.
  Seriously the box needs to be run over by a forklift or smashed by a truck for it to get damaged..
   
  And even if it gets damaged I'm sure you can talk to Edwin (or kingwa directly) and they will sort something out.
   
  Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Audio-GD said EMS is slower shipping to US and sometimes item got damaged.
> 
> What is your experience on EMS?
> 
> ...


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I ordered a second NFB-12 (for my dad), and I) just received a mail that it has been shipped.
> Can't wait.
> 
> I'm going to use it for the Media PC I put downstairs. Currently it has a combination of speakers and amp costing 12,000 gilders. (5,500 euros excluding inflation, or ~8,000 dollars), however the source is a mere Realtek chipset.
> Kind of imbalanced if you ask me: $8,000 versus $0.50 source.


 

  
  I listened to a $20,000 system that used a half-faulty $15 cd player. I wanted to find out who sold the person the system and beat him up.
   
   
  Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Audio-GD said EMS is slower shipping to US and sometimes item got damaged.
> 
> What is your experience on EMS?
> 
> ...


 


  Audio-gd says on their website you must contact the courier and make a claim for damage.


----------



## Nerio

@.Sup:
  Thanks 
   
  @Kevin11:
  My NFB-12 shipped via DHL. Package was very well packed (traveled about 8500 km in a straight line):


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I ordered a second NFB-12 (for my dad), and I) just received a mail that it has been shipped.
> Can't wait.
> 
> I'm going to use it for the Media PC I put downstairs. Currently it has a combination of speakers and amp costing 12,000 gilders. (5,500 euros excluding inflation, or ~8,000 dollars), however the source is a mere Realtek chipset.
> Kind of imbalanced if you ask me: $8,000 versus $0.50 source.


 

 Wow it shipped so fast after order was placed? So there no long wait any more to receive it?


----------



## Kevin11

zenki14 and Nerio,
   
  Thanks for the detailed pictures.  I think either will be fine.
   
  Just curious, how long does it take to ship to US (EMS or DHL)?


----------



## tim3320070

Use DHL- to Chicago, it's about 4-7 days depending on inspections delays. I have ordered 8 items from AGD and 2 of the 8 were EMS and both had issues (one returned to AGD after a month). Nothing was AGD's fault. This is my experience.


----------



## Tilpo

.sup said:


> Wow it shipped so fast after order was placed? So there no long wait any more to receive it?



They received they money on Sunday, and they shipped it on Tuesday. (Yep, they apparently work on Sunday. Crazy, I know)
I was surprised myself too, as the previous time it took them two weeks to ship it. 

Maybe because I'm a regular customer?


----------



## Nerio

@Tilpo
  Yeah  I also had answer on sunday 
   
  @Kevin11
  My NFB-12 was shipped to Europe and took about 5 days (including weekend, and fast custom clearance). Bellow i attach info from DHL site:
   
  Quote: 





> Tuesday, July 05, 2011 Location Time
> 20 Delivered - Signed for by : ... KATOWICE - POLAND 13:34
> 19 With delivery courier  KATOWICE - POLAND 09:18
> 18 Arrived at Delivery Facility in KATOWICE - POLAND  KATOWICE - POLAND 08:25
> ...


----------



## raptor84

Damit should have known better to surf head-fi again =p Now getting tempted..


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> They received they money on Sunday, and they shipped it on Tuesday. (Yep, they apparently work on Sunday. Crazy, I know)
> I was surprised myself too, as the previous time it took them two weeks to ship it.
> 
> Maybe because I'm a regular customer?


 

 can you order it for me then? hehe joke


----------



## puresilence

Quote: 





raptor84 said:


> Damit should have known better to surf head-fi again =p Now getting tempted..


 


  Ha yeah, as am I. My e7 is currently undergoing RMA (bad menu button), and I'm weighing buying an e9, this, a nuforce icon hdp, or the like....


----------



## Kevin11

Quote: 





nerio said:


> @Kevin11
> My NFB-12 was shipped to Europe and took about 5 days (including weekend, and fast custom clearance). Bellow i attach info from DHL site:


 

 Wow, thanks for the information.
   
  I got a reply from them, saying EMS is fine, just slower.
  However I can't understand about how slowly EMS is.  If I understand it right, audio-gd said it takes about 1 month to US.
   
  That sounds a little bit too long for me.  Is that right?
   
  I think I will pull the trigger soon.


----------



## SoulLi

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Wow, thanks for the information.
> 
> I got a reply from them, saying EMS is fine, just slower.
> However I can't understand about how slowly EMS is.  If I understand it right, audio-gd said it takes about 1 month to US.
> ...


 

 If you are from the US, there is the option to order it from pacificvalve they just got some in stock again. It's $237 with free shipping. So it would be about the same as you would pay for directly from audio gd (200+40shipping). But you won't have to wait a month.


----------



## Kevin11

Thanks. That is good to know.
   
  Are they reliable? 
  They mentioned that they will do the burn-in for you.   Doesn't Audio-GD do that for you?
  I am not sure if I want pacificvalve do that (again)?  It is part of the fun I guess. 
   
  The audio-dg's 2nd and 3rd year warranty also looks nice.
  
  Quote: 





soulli said:


> If you are from the US, there is the option to order it from pacificvalve they just got some in stock again. It's $237 with free shipping. So it would be about the same as you would pay for directly from audio gd (200+40shipping). But you won't have to wait a month.


----------



## Tilpo

kevin11 said:


> Thanks. That is good to know.
> 
> Are they reliable?
> They mentioned that they will do the burn-in for you.   Doesn't Audio-GD do that for you?
> ...




I don't think they'll do the burn in, given that they made one for me in just 2 days. 
If they do burn in the device, then it'll be for not much more than an hour, while they're doing quality assurance.


----------



## raptor84

Just pulled the trigger on mine  awaiting excitedly!


----------



## makton

should I turn this off every once in a while? Or can I leave it on all the time without fear of heating killing componenets?


----------



## haloxt

It likely won't generate enough heat to cause something to overheat and die, but every 10c reduction in temperature doubles capacitor life. You could probably safely leave it on 24/7 as long as room temperature stays normal. Some audio-gd gear can get really hot though, and it'd be a good idea to train some fans on really hot electronics.
   
  I have left on some of audio-gd's higher temperature gear for weeks at a time in summer without any active cooling and had no problem, but this summer, I THINK I may have overheated or somehow shorted something so that a solen MKP capacitor in my dac9mk3 temporarily went dead. I'm not sure what caused the temporary dead dac since I did do a bit of soldering in there myself, but from now on I'm only going to use my gear with fans turned on.


----------



## makton

haloxt said:


> It likely won't generate enough heat to cause something to overheat and die, but every 10c reduction in temperature doubles capacitor life. You could probably safely leave it on 24/7 as long as room temperature stays normal. Some audio-gd gear can get really hot though, and it'd be a good idea to train some fans on really hot electronics.
> 
> I have left on some of audio-gd's higher temperature gear for weeks at a time in summer without any active cooling and had no problem, but this summer, I THINK I may have overheated or somehow shorted something so that a solen MKP capacitor in my dac9mk3 temporarily went dead. I'm not sure what caused the temporary dead dac since I did do a bit of soldering in there myself, but from now on I'm only going to use my gear with fans turned on.




ah, thank you  I've decided to let it turn off if my computer or xbox isn't on 





Another question,. is there a channel imbalance in the first minute or so? (HP/ L Gain/ Low Volume/optical). It's fine after a few minutes, but just curious.


----------



## makton

Okay, to be more clear: first minute after turning it on after being cold off.


----------



## turimbar1

Audio-gd does a burn in, but it is fairly short, some people report an increase in sound quality over time owned and on (I seem to notice this as well), but I feel like that is a bit subjective. I do like turning it on and letting power flow through it for a little while before using it, just letting the caps get filled and ready (I really dont know if it does anything, but I do it anyway.


----------



## Tilpo

turimbar1 said:


> Audio-gd does a burn in, but it is fairly short, some people report an increase in sound quality over time owned and on (I seem to notice this as well), but I feel like that is a bit subjective. I do like turning it on and letting power flow through it for a little while before using it, just letting the caps get filled and ready (I really dont know if it does anything, but I do it anyway.



I think it takes very (very) long for capacitors to discharge. Sometimes they even have most of their charge (even a deadly one) after decades. This is why in no event you can ever assume that a capacitor is empty, as even after 40 years they can still hold a deadly charge. 
Other than that I think the increase in sound quality can also be explained by the fact that you get used to the sound of a certain component. Such 'burn in' could even be noticed with second hand components. It's a personal thing, and not something mechanical. 
The only components that DO have noticeable burn-in are tubes. They both have a burn-in of first usage, and start up; it takes several minutes for my tube amp to sound to it's full potential after turning the power on. 
And with tubes it IS smart to turn them off, as leaving it turned on reduces the live-span of the tubes (comparable to light bulbs).


----------



## turimbar1

high-quality caps do have a long lifespan, but caps can discharge very very quickly. I'm not sure if you meant "slowly" as in they can keep a charge for a very long time if not grounded, or whether they actually discharge slowly.


----------



## Tilpo

turimbar1 said:


> high-quality caps do have a long lifespan, but caps can discharge very very quickly. I'm not sure if you meant "slowly" as in they can keep a charge for a very long time if not grounded, or whether they actually discharge slowly.



I mean that they discharge fast when required, but that they on the other hand do not lose their charge very quickly after you turn of a device.


----------



## Elanzer

It's probably ok to leave your NFB-12 on all the time, just make sure it's properly ventilated because they do get pretty hot.
   
  Don't stack things ontop of your NFB-12 and let it have some breathing room all around it, it'll do alot to help reduce it's temperature and keep things in check.


----------



## neddamttocs

Yeah, mine acts as a mini heater so if I'm not using it I turn it off.


----------



## _Spanky_

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Audio-GD said EMS is slower shipping to US and sometimes item got damaged.
> 
> What is your experience on EMS?
> 
> ...


 

 When I received my NFB-12, the box had a huge dent/cave-in on one end. Upon opening up the box, everything was fine. It works great and has no scratches/dents (although the case was wobbily so I put some foam tape underneath to level and secure it). The packaging is nice and I wouldn't doubt it's capable of international travel but it's not the best I've seen by a long shot.


----------



## uncletim

Quote: 





_spanky_ said:


> USB on the NFB-12 should be far better than any motherboard output. Even with digital output, you can't be sure that you're getting a bit-perfect signal from your computer to the DAC. The NFB-12 has the Tenor USB chip which is driverless cross-platform 24/96 bit-perfect. Motherboard audio is a super cheap circuit that is thrown on just because it works and most people (non-audiophiles) have no problem with it. Also, the USB in the NFB-12 uses IIS output instead of S/PDIF which makes for less jitter.


 

  
  Interesting - I'm using the coaxial out from my Claro Halo with HT Omegas cable from the board. http://www.htomega.com/clarohalo.html
   
  I've been looking for a better PCI card, gotta try the USB first and see how I like that.
   
  Liking the sound right now with Grado RS1's.


----------



## haloxt

Most sound cards will not have very different quality coaxial spdif output compared with the claro halo. I would recommend getting a reclocker instead if you want to improve jitter.


----------



## _Spanky_

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Most sound cards will not have very different quality coaxial spdif output compared with the claro halo. I would recommend getting a reclocker instead if you want to improve jitter.


 


  If I remember right, the NFB-12 already has that via a WM8805 chip. At least, that's the chip a lot of USB transport devices use to reclock.


----------



## crumplertm

Hi fellow audiophiles,
  
 I am currently in a position where I am deciding between getting this or a dedicated headphone amp at the same price. I have a Audinst HUD-MX1 and a valab nos dac. So my consider is should I spend 200 USD on the NB12 which yield slightly better improvement from my existing audinst (presumably) or should I spend 200 usd on a h-amp which currently I have yet to decide on M-stage or the audio gd FUN giving to the option to use the valab nos and the dac portion of the audinst. I have the HD650 which I plan to use most of the time along with a earsonic SM3.
  
 I would really appreciate any suggestions.
  
 Thank You!!


----------



## .Sup

@crumplertm I would consider the C2 SA amp and NFB2 combo for best possible musicality from Audio GD at this, very good price.


----------



## SoulLi

My NFB-12 came today from pacific valve and here are some pictures...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16025218/2011-07-13%2014.55.06.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16025218/2011-07-13%2014.55.56.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16025218/2011-07-13%2014.56.45.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16025218/2011-07-13%2014.59.18.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16025218/2011-07-13%2015.14.23.jpg
  I plugged my AKG K702 in and I am enjoying it so far though.


----------



## turimbar1

the FUN and the NFB12 are not that different according to audio-gd, the DAC section of the nfb12 is very nice, dual wolfsons etc. and the amp section is also very good, however it sounds as if you have plenty of DACs, I would recommend just getting a good amp.


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





soulli said:


> My NFB-12 came today from pacific valve and here are some pictures...
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16025218/2011-07-13%2014.55.06.jpg
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16025218/2011-07-13%2014.55.56.jpg
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16025218/2011-07-13%2014.56.45.jpg
> ...


 
   






 How does it sound? Mine doesn't arrive till friday from pacific valve


----------



## SoulLi

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> How does it sound? Mine doesn't arrive till friday from pacific valve


 
  I have been switching between my headphones to listen to them for about 4 hours now. I haven't noticed any sound change though with any of my phones through out my listening. So I assume they did a good job with the burn in, or that solid state doesn't really need a burn in. I haven't picked my side on that yet lol.
  But as for sound quality I moved up from an Fiio e7. To me it is a big improvement as it can drive my k702 a lot better lol. As for comparing it to my ath-m50s through the nfb-12 sounds more natural and has a wider sound stage but it sounds less warm than the e7. I haven't felt much fatigue while listening thus far either. So overall I am enjoying the nfb-12 so far.
   
  P.S.
  As I read  before somewhere on this thread earlier that someone had a problem with their nfb-12 not sitting flat. I noticed the extruded aluminum frame on mine also isn't the straightest and it also has no grip on the bottom so it slides around on my table a lot. Putting some foam tape on the bottom at each corner fixed it for me.


----------



## crumplertm

Quote: 





.sup said:


> @crumplertm I would consider the C2 SA amp and NFB2 combo for best possible musicality from Audio GD at this, very good price.


 


  Hey thanks for the recommendation, I think the price fits quite nicely in my budget.


----------



## ac500

Hi,
   
  I'm trying to order a NFB-12. I was wondering, how fast is Audio-GD at email and shipping out orders after receiving paypal payment? I sent them an email yesterday but haven't heard anything yet.
   
  I'd order from Pacific Valve, but they're all out of NFB-12's according to the website. Are there any other places I should look for one?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## ohhgourami

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to order a NFB-12. I was wondering, how fast is Audio-GD at email and shipping out orders after receiving paypal payment? I sent them an email yesterday but haven't heard anything yet.
> 
> ...


 

 audio-gd is usually very quick with replying emails.  They usually get back to me within an hour, but you need to remember they are in a different time zone in China.  So if you email them around lunch time, they are fast at replying.  Shipping out orders depend on availability.


----------



## ac500

You're right, I got in contact with them just now and placed my order. Dinner time here is work hours there, so it works out well. I think the reason there was a delay was I mistakenly emailed my order request to their paypal / tech support email, rather than the sales one. The website was a little confusing because the "Purchase" page only showed the paypal email. The sales email is visible on the "Contact" page, which I discovered this morning and re-emailed.
   
  Anyway, should be nice. Can't wait for my NFB-12 and my Sennheisers to arrive


----------



## sysfail

If Audio-GD has something "In Stock" on their website and I place the order for it today, when should I expect to receive it?
   
  It will be shipped to California, USA.


----------



## ac500

I've heard that DHL can arrive in around 3 days, so pretty fast. But that's 3 days after they ship it out. If your paypal clears quickly they'll probably ship it out pretty fast. In my case they're good with replying to emails as long as you send to the correct one, but paypal is being slow. Just keep in mind that late evening here in california is the start of their work day, and vice versa


----------



## sysfail

Wow! Really? That's almost like USPS Priority mail (2-3 day shipping) except it's international. I will definitely go with DHL then. Do I have to pick a power cable or something? Also, what other cables does it come with? It says a USB and Optical. Does it have a Coax cable too?
  
  Quote: 





ac500 said:


> I've heard that DHL can arrive in around 3 days, so pretty fast. But that's 3 days after they ship it out. If your paypal clears quickly they'll probably ship it out pretty fast. In my case they're good with replying to emails as long as you send to the correct one, but paypal is being slow. Just keep in mind that late evening here in california is the start of their work day, and vice versa


----------



## ac500

Well mine hasn't arrived in the mail yet, so I'm just repeating what I've heard.
   
  When I contacted them with email to place my order, they of course seeing that my shipping address is in the US automatically picked the correct cable for my order (they filled out a form they emailed with all the info). I don't know what other cables since I don't have it yet.
   
  Also it occurs to me that the 3 day shipping I read somewhere may have referred to once it arrives in the US... I don't remember exactly. Hmm. Maybe someone else with better experience can help more authoritatively 
   
  P.S. Wow... we're up late. Or early. Hmm.


----------



## zenki14

Quote: 





sysfail said:


> Wow! Really? That's almost like USPS Priority mail (2-3 day shipping) except it's international. I will definitely go with DHL then. Do I have to pick a power cable or something? Also, what other cables does it come with? It says a USB and Optical. Does it have a Coax cable too?


 

 Power cable is included, you choose out of the 4 types they offer (100V to 240V, 2 pin or 3 pin etc).  If none is chosen I believe they will just decide from the country you're in after you fill in the order form with your address.
   
  My one came with the USB and optical cables.  No Coax cable - if it's included I'm sure they would note that...


----------



## Sparky14

Quote: 





sysfail said:


> If Audio-GD has something "In Stock" on their website and I place the order for it today, when should I expect to receive it?
> 
> It will be shipped to California, USA.


 


 I''ve ordered from Audio-gd a couple of times, in stock stuff. It took 2-3 weeks to get to SoCal each time.


----------



## sysfail

Thanks for the answers. Yeah I stay up late often lol. Hmm, are Coax cables better than Optical? Or are they pretty much the same? I think I could wait 2-3 weeks, it isn't too bad, I live in SoCal too. I just have bad experience with international shipping, ordered headphones from Poland on May 13th and hasn't arrived to this day. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hopefully it'll be different with Audio-GD. Thanks!


----------



## ohhgourami

Quote: 





sysfail said:


> Thanks for the answers. Yeah I stay up late often lol. Hmm, are Coax cables better than Optical? Or are they pretty much the same? I think I could wait 2-3 weeks, it isn't too bad, I live in SoCal too. I just have bad experience with international shipping, ordered headphones from Poland on May 13th and hasn't arrived to this day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Both should be the same.  You hear a lot of people claiming coax to be far better than optical, but that is from poorly made optical outs.  Choose one...


----------



## Elanzer

Coax vs Optical is a tossup. Coax should have the lowest jitter, but Optical is electronically isolated so it can remove interference from ground loop issues and such, possibly being a cleaner signal than Coax in certain situations.
   
  If it's being used with your computer, chances are you only have one of either Coax or Optical so just choose whichever you have. Coax = Optical > USB for the most part, but the quality between all of them is probably indistinguishable.


----------



## raptor84

Just got an email saying mine shipped out yesterday  Still waiting for them to provide the airway bill number though.. can't wait!


----------



## sysfail

I might just stick with Optical since it comes with it. I'm going to be using this through a Pure i20, not a computer. The i20 has both Coax and Optical outs.


----------



## xxhaxx

Sysfail: it comes with usb and optical and I ordered from pacific valve and it arrived in about 1 week


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> Sysfail: it comes with usb and optical and I ordered from pacific valve and it arrived in about 1 week


 

 Thanks! I wanted to order from Pacific Valve as well but they are sold out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I e-mailed him to see when he will have it in stock again but he hasn't replied yet. =/


----------



## raptor84

Hmm I actually have an old panasonic CDP with optical out. Will see how it fares


----------



## turimbar1

It does take 2-3 weeks to ship to SoCal, for me I waited > 2 months to get mine (they were backed up on orders). 
   
  they are worth the wait IMO


----------



## ac500

For those who didn't have to wait when it was backordered, is it 2-3 weeks after you placed the order, or 2-3 weeks after they ship it out?


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> For those who didn't have to wait when it was backordered, is it 2-3 weeks after you placed the order, or 2-3 weeks after they ship it out?


 

 x2


----------



## raptor84

Just had an update that the shipment that my NFB-12 was in got damaged on the way to DHL and is now u-turned back to be re-shipped :\ Sad about the delay but kudos on the timely email response.


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





raptor84 said:


> Just had an update that the shipment that my NFB-12 was in got damaged on the way to DHL and is now u-turned back to be re-shipped :\ Sad about the delay but kudos on the timely email response.


 

 Better than you having to find out it was damaged!


----------



## raptor84

Yea glad that they did what they did! But it also means for now I'm stuck with a crappy source haha.


----------



## sysfail

Well I just placed my order for one! Hopefully things go well for me and it will arrive on time with no problems. My second time purchasing something internationally, my first time was a horrible experience and I'm STILL waiting for those headphones to arrive. It's been past 2 months! I really wanted to purchase it from Pacific Valve but they've sold out.


----------



## xxhaxx

Sysfail: Only difference is that you would have tracking this time :]


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> Sysfail: Only difference is that you would have tracking this time :]


 

 I have tracking from the other order too. But it hasn't updated since May 27th lol.


----------



## Kevin11

Just got mine.  It just takes 5 days to deliver. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  However, I found the volume is pretty low. 
   
  My machine is windows XP, and NFB was found and the driver is installed automatically. 
  So in foobar I just change the output to "DS: TE7022 Audio w/ SPDIF".
   
  I don't see how to set the property like you did:
  In properties of TE7022 -> supported formats -> check 44,1, 48, 96 kHz
  In properties of TE7022 -> advanced -> default format -> 2 channel, 24 bit, 96 kHz
   
  and the device is shown as TE7022 Audio w/ SPDIF in foobar (output format is 8,16,24,32bit), not TE7022 (DS, WASAPI) as yours.
   
  Did I miss anything?
   
  Thanks.

  
  Quote: 





nerio said:


> I also use Windows 7 x64 (but Professional) and i change:
> In sound:
> Playback -> TE7022 to default device (if you want only use this device to playback)
> In properties of TE7022 -> supported formats -> check 44,1, 48, 96 kHz
> ...


----------



## ac500

Kevin11: Wow 5 days after shipping is fast, is this from China or from Pacific Valve?


----------



## sysfail

I know, I'd be surprised (and happy) if I got mine within 5 days from China. I'm stuck with only a FiiO E5 right now.


----------



## Kevin11

One thing is clear now: XP doesn't support WASAPI.  I will try it on my win 7 laptop later.
   
  Is WASAPI noticeably better?
   
  Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Just got mine.  It just takes 5 days to deliver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kevin11

It is from China directly.  It is faster than UPS ground. 
   
  They shipped it out in about 5 days after confirming the order.  Very fast.
  
  Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Kevin11: Wow 5 days after shipping is fast, is this from China or from Pacific Valve?


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> It is from China directly.  It is faster than UPS ground.
> 
> They shipped it out in about 5 days after confirming the order.  Very fast.


 

 So they just shipped it out 5 days from placing the order? Or did you already receive the item 5 days from placing the order? Or did it actually take 10 days from placing the order (5 days to process then ship it out and 5 days to get to your house)?


----------



## Kevin11

5 days for manufacturing & testing, and 5 days for shipping to my home.  Total 10 days.
  
  Quote: 





sysfail said:


> So they just shipped it out 5 days from placing the order? Or did you already receive the item 5 days from placing the order? Or did it actually take 10 days from placing the order (5 days to process then ship it out and 5 days to get to your house)?


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> 5 days for manufacturing & testing, and 5 days for shipping to my home.  Total 10 days.


 

 Oh ok. That's still not bad! I hope mine arrives just as fast.


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Just got mine.  It just takes 5 days to deliver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  What headphones are you using? If volume is low, set gain to High (ideally you're close to around 12"o clock).
   
  To get WASAPI support you need to downloadl the WASAPI plugin for foobar, it doesn't come stock.


----------



## Tilpo

elanzer said:


> To get WASAPI support you need to downloadl the WASAPI plugin for foobar, it doesn't come stock.




About WASAPI, I love it. But is there also a plugin that does not stop all other sounds? Because I often listen to music while gaming, and I do like to hear it when a creeper sneaks up to me in minecraft.


----------



## Kevin11

The WASAPI was installed when I tried it.  But I found out that it doesn't work on XP, at least on my machine.
  I tried it on my win7 later on, and it works fine and I also find out how to set the properties on win 7.
  Now the volume is fine.
   
  So what do you guys use on windows XP? I installed ASIO, but it can't find any device under the output tab.
  
  Quote: 





elanzer said:


> What headphones are you using? If volume is low, set gain to High (ideally you're close to around 12"o clock).
> 
> To get WASAPI support you need to downloadl the WASAPI plugin for foobar, it doesn't come stock.


----------



## .Sup

for XP use ASIO4all


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> About WASAPI, I love it. But is there also a plugin that does not stop all other sounds? Because I often listen to music while gaming, and I do like to hear it when a creeper sneaks up to me in minecraft.


 


  For a long time I used kernel streaming on XP and it didn't mute all other sounds, but on Win7 on any of them (kernel streaming, asio, or wasapi) I can't get all sound working while using bitperfect playback. In the end I just used DS.


----------



## Nerio

@Kevin11
  WASAPI mute all other sounds and seeking of current track is slow (comparing to DS)
  For gaming and listening music you must use DS. DS is working for me perfectly.
  In Windows XP you cas use kernel streaming (you need plugin to foobar2000)


----------



## ac500

Well I just got an update that they're shipping mine out today. Would be nice if they arrive in 5 days .
  
  Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> 5 days for manufacturing & testing, and 5 days for shipping to my home.  Total 10 days.


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Well I just got an update that they're shipping mine out today. Would be nice if they arrive in 5 days .


 

 When did you order yours?


----------



## ac500

I placed the order one week ago (thursday), however Paypal didn't clear payment until this monday.


----------



## sysfail

Oh ok, that's normal then. I placed mine a couple days ago so I still have to wait a bit. Can't wait though!


----------



## raptor84

Mine was shipped out yesterday too  Hope the 3 day DHL means it arrives on Sunday heh...


----------



## Nerio

My NFB-12 worked around 100h and the sound is noticeably better  (more detailed, bigger soundstage)
  With Superlux HD668B (worked around 70-80h, recabled and also replaced earpads to akg velours) i can listen music non-stop 
  Another photo:


----------



## sysfail

Can't wait to get mine! It hasn't shipped out yet.


----------



## ac500

Yeah, same here. Although they sent an email saying they shipped mine out later last week. However they said the tracking number won't be available for a few days. I don't know if this is normal or not because I've never used DHL before.


----------



## sysfail

Neither have I, but I hope they are reliable lol.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Yeah, same here. Although they sent an email saying they shipped mine out later last week. However they said the tracking number won't be available for a few days. I don't know if this is normal or not because I've never used DHL before.


 


  I think rarely, people receive the package before DHL gives updates, but usually DHL will give updates before it arrives. 1-2 days after the day of shipping the tracking information should be updated online.


----------



## tim3320070

DHL has been very good for me. I have the most issues with EMS here in Chicago.


----------



## raptor84

Mines been with the DHL delivery facility since saturday morning. Was hoping they would dispatch yesterday but meh =p


----------



## ac500

_> I think rarely, people receive the package before DHL gives updates, but usually DHL will give updates before it arrives. 1-2 days after the day of shipping the tracking information should be updated online._
   
  In my case, I don't even have a tracking number at all. So I don't have any idea where it is right now. But I'm sure Audio-GD is trustworthy so I guess I shouldn't worry (I'm just not used to ordering outside of the US or Canada).


----------



## tim3320070

Send them an email asking for tracking.


----------



## ac500

Their last email specifically said they'll send it to me when they get it - well I think so, the english wasn't very understandable. I guess it couldn't hurt to ask.


----------



## sysfail

It's been about 5 days now and Audio-gd hasn't given me an update if they shipped it out yet or not. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was hoping to get it by the end of this week or early next week.


----------



## tim3320070

.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Their last email specifically said they'll send it to me when they get it - well I think so, the english wasn't very understandable. I guess it couldn't hurt to ask.


 

 They have become very busy and you have to sometimes be a squeaky wheel


----------



## lingdaowen

I emailed them for the tracking number few hours ago and they emailed me back with the number just moment ago! can't wait to get it


----------



## sysfail

I just got an e-mail right now saying they sent it out yesterday, but it will take several days for them to update me with tracking info. I'm on the same boat now.


----------



## ac500

Quote: 





lingdaowen said:


> I emailed them for the tracking number few hours ago and they emailed me back with the number just moment ago! can't wait to get it


 
   

  Yeah, exactly the same for me just now.
   
  No projected delivery date it seems, so now it's just time to wait. All I needed was the tracking number since UPS tends to have issues delivering to my door, in case DHL has similar problems.


----------



## ac500

Quote: 





sysfail said:


> I just got an e-mail right now saying they sent it out yesterday, but it will take several days for them to update me with tracking info. I'm on the same boat now.


 
   
  Yeah, sounds pretty consistent with my experience as well. Incidentally, mine has already arrived in my state, so it does seem pretty fast (if you don't count the weekends towards shipping time) considering it's from so far away. I'll post an update when it arrives


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Yeah, sounds pretty consistent with my experience as well. Incidentally, mine has already arrived in my state, so it does seem pretty fast (if you don't count the weekends towards shipping time) considering it's from so far away. I'll post an update when it arrives


 

 Let us know! I'll post when I receive mine as well. I'm really hoping I could get it by the end of this week or early next week.


----------



## raptor84

I came home to find the package sitting on my bed  Running it through my well-used dt-150, now and wow this thing can really reterive some bass detail  Will need to break this and the k701 in more to see how the paring stands


----------



## ac500

DHL tried to deliver mine today, but since I'm not home of course the delivery failed, since my DHL doesn't break into my home and place it on my bed like with raptor84 (jk) 
   
  I'll get it tomorrow I guess. Anyway sysfail, they seem to deliver pretty fast to CA!


----------



## neddamttocs

For me it took 4 Days to Canada (Ontario)


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> DHL tried to deliver mine today, but since I'm not home of course the delivery failed, since my DHL doesn't break into my home and place it on my bed like with raptor84 (jk)
> 
> I'll get it tomorrow I guess. Anyway sysfail, they seem to deliver pretty fast to CA!


 

 Wow that sure was fast! I live in CA too. I just might get mine at the end of this week. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 How many days did it take to get to you from the time they shipped it?


----------



## ac500

They shipped it out 5 days ago, last Thursday. So either 5 days, or 3 days if you don't count weekends.


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> They shipped it out 5 days ago, last Thursday. So either 5 days, or 3 days if you don't count weekends.


 

 Wow, so 3 business days. I hope mine is that fast. I'm excited.


----------



## Nerio

@sysfail
  I see, that you have many headphones 
  We'll wait for your impressions (especially: Fostex T50RP, Audio Technica and Fischer  - if i'm not wrong nobody listen nfb-12 with these headphones )
   
  P.S. Audio-GD released a new product - NFB-5


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





nerio said:


> @sysfail
> I see, that you have many headphones
> We'll wait for your impressions (especially: Fostex T50RP, Audio Technica and Fischer  - if i'm not wrong nobody listen nfb-12 with these headphones )
> 
> P.S. Audio-GD released a new product - NFB-5


 

 Haha ok. I will post some impressions when I spend some time with the NFB-12 and all my headphones. NFB-5 looks really cool, but it's so much more expensive.


----------



## ac500

It arrived (well, I picked it up)! It's really well built (and well packaged) and seems very good quality build in general.
   
  Using with my HD 650, what I noticed first of all is that things sounded _much_ more crisp/clear. You can very easily tell a bad recording / compression now, even more so than before. I really like that subtler (quieter) sounds are just as clear as loud, where with a default sound card sounds start to get kind of muffled at low volume. However I can't judge very well right now because there's white noise in the background at work (and I can't play it moderately loud with other people around). I'll post a better impression later


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> It arrived (well, I picked it up)! It's really well built (and well packaged) and seems very good quality build in general.
> 
> Using with my HD 650, what I noticed first of all is that things sounded _much_ more crisp/clear. You can very easily tell a bad recording / compression now, even more so than before. I really like that subtler (quieter) sounds are just as clear at loud, where with a default sound card sounds start to get kind of muffled at low volume. However I can't judge very well right now because there's white noise in the background at work (and I can't play it moderately loud with other people around). I'll post a better impression later


 

 Great! Looking forward to more impressions!


----------



## sysfail

Got a tracking number! It says it departed Hong Kong and it's on its way here. Wonder if I'll receive it by the end of the week.


----------



## ac500

Nice.
   
  I think I'm going to post my impressions mostly on the HD 650 thread, because I'm really not qualified to compare a dac/amp alone. This is my first high end audio rig ever, so I'm only comparing to no amp at all


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Nice.
> 
> I think I'm going to post my impressions mostly on the HD 650 thread, because I'm really not qualified to compare a dac/amp alone. This is my first high end audio rig ever, so I'm only comparing to no amp at all


 

 Haha alright. I've ever only used the FiiO amps, so that's all I have to compare to.


----------



## eron

Use the optical input over USB if you can. SQ is significantly better than USB, through a cheap optical cable I bought to connect to my MBP.


----------



## ac500

I didn't know MacBooks had optical ports. I'll have to check that when I get home.


----------



## sysfail

Just received my NFB-12! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I spent a few hours already on it with most my headphones. The DAC on the NFB-12 is definitely a good improvement over my Pure i20's built-in DAC and especially the iPod's DAC. The soundstage increases, details or more upfront, but still sounds quite musical and not too dry.
   
  The amp portion can drive anything I have without problems at all. I feel that it gives my Thunderpants more power than what my FiiO E9 could give. They make my Thunderpants sound even more amazing now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They power my Beyerdynamic DT990/600ohm with ease, but so did the FiiO E9. There is still an improvement in sound quality, but that's probably from the DAC. On the Fischer Audio FA-011, the bass is crazy compared to using my FiiO E5 amp (already sold my E7/E9 when I got the FA-011). I'm not a basshead so the bass is a bit much for me, but they do sound amazing with dubstep music. On the Sennheiser HD600, it made the sound much more refined (again, probably because of the DAC), and I also felt it lost some bass quantity but gained some bass quality compared to the FiiO E9.
   
  The overall sound of the NFB-12 is pretty detailed without being too analytical, and it gives the music a really "tight" and "controlled" sound so the sounds in the music won't be all over the place. The DAC on the NFB-12 definitely beats the DAC on the FiiO E7, but the amp on the NFB-12 is just a bit better than the FiiO E9 amp.
   
  Now back to listening.


----------



## Nerio

@sysfail
  thanks for impressions 
  I think you should hear more after about 100h listening on nfb-12 
   
  http://youtu.be/ATk6mshYvS0?hd=1 - great track for test


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





nerio said:


> @sysfail
> thanks for impressions
> I think you should hear more after about 100h listening on nfb-12
> 
> http://youtu.be/ATk6mshYvS0?hd=1 - great track for test


 

 No problem! Didn't know amps/dacs need some burn-in. I'll definitely give it some burn-in time right now then.


----------



## Kevin11

If I only want to use the DAC part, can I just set the switch, and connect the output to the amplifier directly using RCA cable?
   
  Also what is the difference between fixed and variable line out?
  I think if I connect it to per-amp/receiver, e.g. a home theater receiver via one of its input such as video 3 input in the front, I should use the "fixed" setting.
  If I connect it to an amp without volume control, then I should set the switch to variable.   Is that right?
   
  I tried it once, but the volume is so low, I have to crank up the volume on the receiver.   
  And even with fixed setting, I still can change the volume using the NFB's volume control. So what is fixed?


----------



## raptor84

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> If I only want to use the DAC part, can I just set the switch, and connect the output to the amplifier directly using RCA cable?
> 
> Also what is the difference between fixed and variable line out?
> I think if I connect it to per-amp/receiver, e.g. a home theater receiver via one of its input such as video 3 input in the front, I should use the "fixed" setting.
> ...


 

 I think there is a jumper setting inside that can force it to be "fixed" cause the default config is set to always variable.
   
  Btw an interesting paring is with a ksc-75 with kramer mods. The warm presentation of the NFB really brings the mids out while taming a highs a little. I can hear the drivers distort a little when there is extreme bass though and it not uncomfortably loud yet.. Good open pop and rock phone to complement the k701 imo


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> If I only want to use the DAC part, can I just set the switch, and connect the output to the amplifier directly using RCA cable?
> 
> Also what is the difference between fixed and variable line out?
> I think if I connect it to per-amp/receiver, e.g. a home theater receiver via one of its input such as video 3 input in the front, I should use the "fixed" setting.
> ...


 

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB11/NFB1110.jpg


----------



## Kevin11

Yes, I am aware of the jumper.  Just don't understand what the left 3-way switch (headphone, fixed, variable) for?
  Quote: 





raptor84 said:


> I think there is a jumper setting inside that can force it to be "fixed" cause the default config is set to always variable.
> 
> Btw an interesting paring is with a ksc-75 with kramer mods. The warm presentation of the NFB really brings the mids out while taming a highs a little. I can hear the drivers distort a little when there is extreme bass though and it not uncomfortably loud yet.. Good open pop and rock phone to complement the k701 imo


----------



## xxhaxx

3 switches - Headphone relays the signal to the headphone port in the front. Variable and Fixed relay the signal to the line out in the back of the amp. Variable allows you to control the volume with the volume knob and fixed is just fixed volume


----------



## tim3320070

"Variable" acts as a preamp and "fixed" would be a line out to a separate preamp for volume control.


----------



## Kevin11

Thanks.
  
  Just noticed that by default, the "fixed" mode is not enabled.   No wonder I found it changes the volume as well.
   
  Still when I plug it in my receiver, I had to crank up the volume a lot.


----------



## JohnnyLightOn

Here are my listening impressions after 10 days of owning the NFB-12:
   
  I'm not using this DAC with headphones due to a persistent case of tinnitus.  I bought it exclusively to listen with speakers at work using my computer as the source.  The chain is Realtek integrated computer sound (ALC888S) digital output ---> coax cable ---> NFB-12 ---> RCA-XLR cables ---> M-Audio BX-5 Deluxe powered monitors.  For software, I use Foobar's WASAPI output at 24 bit with 470ms buffer, and also Windows digital sound at 16 bit 96k for Pandora and system sounds.  I listen to many different genres of music.
   
  Both the design and build quality of this unit more than met my expectations.  My powered speakers have separate, rear-mounted volume controls, so I needed my DAC to have a variable analog output.  The quality volume control on the NFB-12 is a pleasure to use.  The case is well built and attractive.  I really appreciate the fixed/variable output having the option of being variable/variable (i.e. no fixed output possible) and also not having to open the unit up to set the fixed/variable output jumper.  I don't want to flip a front-panel switch by mistake and blow out my speakers and my ears by suddenly having a full-volume signal going to my speakers. 
   
  Before the NFB-12, I was satisfied with my computer's sound but in no way did it sound high end.  The BX-5a Deluxe speakers have an open, airy sound with slightly emphasized treble (either that or slightly recessed mids) and natural but not deep or powerful bass.  I didn't think I could get truly enjoyable sound out of my computer and these speakers before it occurred to me to buy an outboard DAC.  Adding an outboard DAC was the best thing I could have done to improve this system, and it is now very satisfying. 
   
  With the NFB-12 in the chain, the noise floor is now dead silent, whereas before there was a noticeable hiss all the time, even when no music was playing.  I finally have a good stereo image.  The instrument separation is excellent and the soundstage is greatly improved.  The sound is smooth but detailed enough for music enjoyment.  The bass on my system is not any stronger or weaker than before, so I do not believe the NFB-12 emphasizes or reduces the bass.  The timbre of the instruments and vocals themselves are tremendously better.
   
  I have the gain switch set to high.  On low gain, in my system there was a noticeable lack of PRAT to the point that the sound was bland and boring.  Switching the gain to high fixed that immediately; it now has very nice PRAT.  Also, in my system, the NFB-12 has a slightly dark character.  It is smooth and very listenable for long periods of time, but there's no question that I can hear the slightly dark sound signature of the NFB-12.  There's always the risk of having a given component color the sound enough that all music sounds somewhat the same and you end up listening to the component rather than the music.  I don't think the NFB-12 crosses into that territory.  Its coloration is done very well, almost to the point of being addictive, but I do sometimes notice its character.  For those whose systems are already dark, or to get the most neutral sound, I would recommend Edwin's other DACs such as the NFB-11 or the new NFB-5 that has multiple filters to change the sound signature.  For my use, especially at this price, I can live with having this one, slightly dark sound signature.  In my system, and for non-critical music listening, it's a good match. 
   
  As for break-in, I have left the unit on 24/7 for 10 days, and have had music playing through it for about 40 hours.  The sound seems to have improved over that time, but I haven't tracked the changes enough to discuss them here.
   
  I can't speak to how the NFB-12 would operate in a headphone system, especially with respect to the soundstage and treble.  My system is not revealing enough to evaluate those aspects of its sound.
   
  DHL shipping to Los Angeles was $40, which is about 20% of the cost of the unit itself, but it got here undamaged in four days, so it was worth it to me.
   
  Overall I'm extremely happy with this $239 purchase (delivered price, bought during a promotion that dropped the price by $10).


----------



## eclipes

I see that the NFB 12 doesnt have RCA out, so how would I connect the NFB12 to my dedicated tube amp???


----------



## xxhaxx

nfd 12 does have a RCA out but it doesn't have a RCA in


----------



## eclipes

okay thanks, what do guys think about the NFB 12 going up against the Yulong U100, Audinst, Dr. Dac, or music streamer II.
   
  Still cant decide which DAC to pair with my Little Dot I+ and SR325i.
   
  Any Help please


----------



## SkinnyPuppy

Where do I buy this?


----------



## KZCloud89

Quote: 





skinnypuppy said:


> Where do I buy this?


 


http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm


----------



## 65dos

What you think about nfb-12 amp?
  its ok for hd600?


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





65dos said:


> What you think about nfb-12 amp?
> its ok for hd600?


 

 I think it's great with the HD600. Very detailed, yet smooth and musical.


----------



## captouch

Any other USB/optical/coax DAC contenders in this price range, or is this the one to get? The HPA function is a nice-to-have, but not absolutely required, so primarily interested in the flexibility of inputs with the DAC functionality.

Have DT880/600's, TripleFi 10i's, and Ety ER-4P's, and can use a Hifiman EF5 as another amp option with NFB-12 DAC outs if it's better than the NFB-12's built-in HPA to drive the DT880's.

But also plan to use this as DAC with speaker setup feeding an old Sony TA-77ESD which has circa late 80's DAC's, which I want to improve upon.


----------



## xxhaxx

Pacific Value just sent me a new powercord for the audio gd nfd 12


----------



## captouch

When I asked for a quote for NFB-12, Audio GD said the "tax fee" for EMS is cheap, but expensive for DHL.  
   
  Is there any customs/duties charges for ordering this directly from Audio GD and does this vary by shipping method?  I'm confused.
   
  They also said DHL shipments recently have been damaged, whereas earlier I thought I read EMS was having the same problem. 
   
  Any recommendations?


----------



## ac500

Shipping to the US from DHL for me was easy. Just one shipping fee (about $50 I think) when I ordered, and it arrived with no hassle.


----------



## sysfail

Is it ok if I use a PC power cord to power my NFB-12 rather than the power cord provided? I'm scared to use the stock one now since I've read it is improperly wired.


----------



## ac500

Yes that will be fine. It's just a standard power cable, nothing special about it. I doubt it's improperly wired though, it works fine for me.


----------



## IsoOctane

Is it normal that the case of NFB-12 is not grounded? According to my multimeter the case and the audio connector grounds are at either 50 or 85 VAC w.r.t. to powerline ground, depending on which way the powerplug (non-polarised europlug) is connected, or at 140 or 0 VAC when the unit is off. When touching the unit I get a buzzing sensation that you usually get when touching metallic laptops that are not connected to grounded outlets, for example. Touching the unit and the ground at the same time would probably give you an unpleasant zap, even though the current shouldn't be dangerous. So do the other NFB-12 owners get a buzzing sensation when moving your finger on the case? Make sure it's not grounded trough any of the other connections. I'm quite sure the case should be connected to the powerline ground according to most safety regulations.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





isooctane said:


> Is it normal that the case of NFB-12 is not grounded? According to my multimeter the case and the audio connector grounds are at either 50 or 85 VAC w.r.t. to powerline ground, depending on which way the powerplug (non-polarised europlug) is connected, or at 140 or 0 VAC when the unit is off. When touching the unit I get a buzzing sensation that you usually get when touching metallic laptops that are not connected to grounded outlets, for example. Touching the unit and the ground at the same time would probably give you an unpleasant zap, even though the current shouldn't be dangerous. So do the other NFB-12 owners get a buzzing sensation when moving your finger on the case? Make sure it's not grounded trough any of the other connections. I'm quite sure the case should be connected to the powerline ground according to most safety regulations.


 

 I would write to Kingwa/Audio GD to see how it should be, but I recall earlier in the thread that someone (unless it was you also) mentioned about this buzzing.
   
  Would it be dangerous to just manually ground the case with a wire to see if that resolved the buzzing?


----------



## IsoOctane

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I would write to Kingwa/Audio GD to see how it should be, but I recall earlier in the thread that someone (unless it was you also) mentioned about this buzzing.
> 
> Would it be dangerous to just manually ground the case with a wire to see if that resolved the buzzing?


 

 No it wasn't me earlier, just recently got mine.
   
  Took a look inside, the ground pin of the power socket is not connected to anything, doesn't look like it's meant to either, so no wonder the case isn't grounded. The ground of the device is thus floating, not sure how the voltage is getting coupled onto it, but I hope a single short in the transformer or some capacitor won't make the casing go live.
   
  Safety aside, the buzzing is a bit annoying, maybe I'll switch from optical to coaxial to get the unit grounded. Though grounding through audio cables is usually not the best idea...


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





isooctane said:


> No it wasn't me earlier, just recently got mine.
> 
> Took a look inside, the ground pin of the power socket is not connected to anything, doesn't look like it's meant to either, so no wonder the case isn't grounded. The ground of the device is thus floating, not sure how the voltage is getting coupled onto it, but I hope a single short in the transformer or some capacitor won't make the casing go live.
> 
> Safety aside, the buzzing is a bit annoying, maybe I'll switch from optical to coaxial to get the unit grounded. Though grounding through audio cables is usually not the best idea...


 

 Should get mine in a couple of weeks - will report if mine does the same.
   
  Guess it's risky/questionable to just ground the case to the ground pin to avoid any risk of going live???


----------



## Omnirai

Hi guys - portable guy here wanting to start on a home rig. I have nothing atm, looking to get a DAC/AMP hybrid as the first component of my chain. Budget is probably $300 - looking between this and the Matrix Mini-i atm. Any comparisons between the 2 I can look at? This thread is fairly daunting to read through in its entirety.
   
  Some concerns with versatility - I have not settled on my headphone as of yet. Will these sound good with most choices or are they picky about what headphones they are paired with? Until I get my cans, will these greatly improve my experience with IEM listening at home (Ortofon e-Q5 if it matters)? Can I plug my speakers into these to improve the sound? Some of the cans I'm looking at are AKG K70x, HD600/650, DT880 and perhaps the new Hifiman HE-300 dynamics. Assuming I want to break up my purchases, ultimately will it be wise to go for these first? Apologies for the multitude of questions, complete newbie on home rigs here. Much thanks!


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote: 





johnnylighton said:


> Here are my listening impressions after 10 days of owning the NFB-12:
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>>>>> SNIP <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


 
   
   
  Great review and great read Johnny...


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

Errr... I know I'm stepping out on a whim about this but.... could the NFB-12 be a good dac for the HE-5LE? Actually I meant the HE-500... its said that the Filo 11E can run it... it sounds similar to the hd650...


----------



## eclipes

How does the NFB12 sound as a dedicated dac. I'll looking for more of a dac upgrade but hate the designs of music streamer and vdac


----------



## turimbar1

These cans are very versatile, they sound good out of low efficiency orthos and high resistance moving coils alike. They really do have a good a good amount of power. They can drive the fostex t50rp (ortho) way past any reasonable volume, and do it well. It is NOT the schiit Lyr, they do not have those dynamics and pure power, but for a dac/amp they are plenty powerful. This DAC/AMP is very forgiving with headphones, I have yet to hear any sibilance with any headphone I have tried, also no review I have read has complained of improper pairing with a given headphone. Not to say these are perfect, but they do not offend. They are not as detailed as the higher-end dedicated DACs and the amp section is not as good as many dedicated amps, but you cannot buy a good DAC and a good AMP for the price of the NFB12 (that I know of). So this is a good way to get into "rigs" as it does both well, can drive almost any headphone well, and is about the price of a good AMP or a good DAC (but it does both!).
   
  They make iems sound better too. The dac on this really is something else, but, I am not sure whether it can beat out dedicated DAC's at this price range.


----------



## eclipes

I am just wondering how the dac in the NFB12 compares to the Udac2, how much of an improvement will I be expecting?? The price is tempting for sure, still don't know if I should pull the trigger for the NFB12


----------



## JohnnyLightOn

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *HeatFan12* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Great review and great read Johnny...


 
   
  Hey thanks for the very nice feedback, HeatFan12!


----------



## Omnirai

Quote: 





turimbar1 said:


> These cans are very versatile, they sound good out of low efficiency orthos and high resistance moving coils alike. They really do have a good a good amount of power. They can drive the fostex t50rp (ortho) way past any reasonable volume, and do it well. It is NOT the schiit Lyr, they do not have those dynamics and pure power, but for a dac/amp they are plenty powerful. This DAC/AMP is very forgiving with headphones, I have yet to hear any sibilance with any headphone I have tried, also no review I have read has complained of improper pairing with a given headphone. Not to say these are perfect, but they do not offend. They are not as detailed as the higher-end dedicated DACs and the amp section is not as good as many dedicated amps, but you cannot buy a good DAC and a good AMP for the price of the NFB12 (that I know of). So this is a good way to get into "rigs" as it does both well, can drive almost any headphone well, and is about the price of a good AMP or a good DAC (but it does both!).
> 
> They make iems sound better too. The dac on this really is something else, but, I am not sure whether it can beat out dedicated DAC's at this price range.


 

 Thanks for the input, from what I'm hearing I pretty much can't go wrong with these at the price. Considering pulling the trigger soon, unless I read anything about the Matrix competitor being 100$ better...


----------



## cheaphifi

Anyone noticed that the NFB-12 has now the ABILITY TO CHANGE FILTER SETTINGS like the NFB-5 but with jumpers not with an external switch ?
   
  Look here : http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm
   
  it can be a cool feature for modifying the sound signature of the NFB-12..


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> Anyone noticed that the NFB-12 has now the ABILITY TO CHANGE FILTER SETTINGS like the NFB-5 but with jumpers not with an external switch ?
> 
> Look here : http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm
> 
> it can be a cool feature for modifying the sound signature of the NFB-12..


 


  That's cool, can hardly wait to get mine (ordered and shipped).  But those graphs and descriptions don't mean much to me - not sure how to interpret them.  Anyone know what these options translate to in layman's terms?


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

So the NFB-12 is good enough to drive and play the LCD-2 and HE-500 well?  I know I read that they can drive the HD650 and they are hard to drive.  The LCD and HE are both easier to drive but will they sound good?  If there is anyone who has the NFB-12 and tried them on the 2 orthos please fill me in.


----------



## raptor84

Quote: 





captouch said:


> That's cool, can hardly wait to get mine (ordered and shipped).  But those graphs and descriptions don't mean much to me - not sure how to interpret them.  Anyone know what these options translate to in layman's terms?


 
   
  Seconded this. No wonder there were so many jumpers included in the package


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





raptor84 said:


> Seconded this. No wonder there were so many jumpers included in the package


 
   
  There's actually a nice blog article here on the wm8741 and some of its filters.  Good read.
http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2009/05/wm8741-digital-filters.html

  So, Raptor84, how do you like the NFB-12 after a couple of weeks with it?  I saw your initial impressions about bass response.  Care to share any additional impressions?


----------



## Kevin11

Thanks for the information.
   
  Just wonder if this new feature is only in new NFB-12, or it has been there for a while, just not published.  ( I got mine at beginning of last month.)
   
  Also what is the default setting shipped?
  According to the article, the filter "Minimum phase apodizing" seems to be better, but it only support up to 48Khz.
   
   
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> There's actually a nice blog article here on the wm8741 and some of its filters.  Good read.
> http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2009/05/wm8741-digital-filters.html
> 
> So, Raptor84, how do you like the NFB-12 after a couple of weeks with it?  I saw your initial impressions about bass response.  Care to share any additional impressions?


----------



## captouch

Check to see if you have the posts that will allow you to apply the jumpers to change the filter/sample rate.  I wondered the same thing (whether it was always there or is a new features).  It's still listed as rev A on their website, so hopefully it was always there (for those that ordered early).
   
  Not sure about the default setting, but I saw some references to the filter earlier in the thread, so it might be listed there.  I think you'd just need to check the voltage on a couple of pins and then look at the WM8741 datasheet which is on the web.
  
  Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Just wonder if this new feature is only in new NFB-12, or it has been there for a while, just not published.  ( I got mine at beginning of last month.)
> 
> ...


----------



## xxhaxx

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Just wonder if this new feature is only in new NFB-12, or it has been there for a while, just not published.  ( I got mine at beginning of last month.)
> 
> ...


 

 Just took the lid off my NFD 12 to see if it has the jumpers but it seems like it doesn't. Bought it back in July


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





xxhaxx said:


> Just took the lid off my NFD 12 to see if it has the jumpers but it seems like it doesn't. Bought it back in July


 
   
  Looks like Raptor84 who received his in late July had them.  I asked Sysfail if he also has them (he also received his late July).  Mine will be delivered tomorrow and will report whether I have them as well.


----------



## SoulLi

Mine doesn't have the new features either. I got mine in July also. I think the extra jumpers that mine came with are for the fixed or variable output though. Would have been nice added feature but oh well. I am still happy with mine so far.


----------



## lmf22

I got mine on July 27 (I think it was shipped a week before that) and does not have the user selectable filters.


----------



## captouch

Ah, not so sure Raptor84 has the option either actually.  I had assumed that if you had jumpers, it meant the feature was there.  But I guess people are getting jumpers for the variable/fixed output.
   
  Not sure when the page went up that showed the the new feature.  But they were showing in-stock for NFB-12 for quite a while, so they may still have been shipping old stock w/o the feature when I ordered mine too.  I ordered mine on 8/9 and it shipped a day later.  I'll report back tomorrow, but kind of bummed that I may have just missed out on this feature by a few days.
  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> Looks like Raptor84 who received his in late July had them.  I asked Sysfail if he also has them (he also received his late July).  Mine will be delivered tomorrow and will report whether I have them as well.


----------



## eclipes

I just ordered mine 2 days ago, and one of their representatives said it could take up to a week or so for it to be shipped. I hope its the new version then....


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

Is this strong enough to run with the LCD-2 or HE-500?


----------



## captouch

I received my unit today.  Looks very high quality and very solidly built.  As a very minor point, I recall others were commenting about the unit not having feet and being a little tipsy, but mind had rubber feet on the bottom.  Also, *the power cord is properly wired*, so it's nice to know they've taken care of that and I don't have to hunt around for another cord.
   
  I _*do*_ have the newer version with the digital filter jumpers.  
   
  By default, the unit is set as "*[size=x-small]2X oversampling , Linear phase 'brickwall' filter"  [/size]**[size=x-small]mode.  [/size]*
   
  I'll try other digital filter modes later, but want to wait until I do some burn-in before attempting any critical listening.  It's playing now through coax and I'll let it burn-in for the next few days before posting impressions.
   
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> Ah, not so sure Raptor84 has the option either actually.  I had assumed that if you had jumpers, it meant the feature was there.  But I guess people are getting jumpers for the variable/fixed output.
> 
> Not sure when the page went up that showed the the new feature.  But they were showing in-stock for NFB-12 for quite a while, so they may still have been shipping old stock w/o the feature when I ordered mine too.  I ordered mine on 8/9 and it shipped a day later.  I'll report back tomorrow, but kind of bummed that I may have just missed out on this feature by a few days.


----------



## captouch

If you search on this thread, people seem to think it's strong enough for LCD-2.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495631/amp-recommendations-for-audeze-lcd-2
  
  Quote: 





hawaiiancerveza said:


> Is this strong enough to run with the LCD-2 or HE-500?


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

MMM... too much to read... I have been reading for days about different dacs/amps for the LCD-2.  I pretty sold on the Burson 160D but the NFB-2 was on my radar.  
  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> If you search on this thread, people seem to think it's strong enough for LCD-2.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495631/amp-recommendations-for-audeze-lcd-2


----------



## raptor84

Quote: 





captouch said:


> There's actually a nice blog article here on the wm8741 and some of its filters.  Good read.
> http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2009/05/wm8741-digital-filters.html
> 
> So, Raptor84, how do you like the NFB-12 after a couple of weeks with it?  I saw your initial impressions about bass response.  Care to share any additional impressions?


 

 I thought I had the new version given all the jumpers but when i opened it to check it was the older version :\ Ah well no regrets for the price though!
   
  I can only compare it to my udac-2 which served me well for about 1 year since. As mentioned earlier when paired with the dt-150 it did give a much more detailed bass response. Probably given it had much more current to drive it with. I did notice that the highs had less of a sparkle compared to the udac-2. It does make the overall presentation a little "heavy" though.
   
  It definitely pairs well with the k701's and makes orchestral works come alive with the detail that the 701 is famous for. There is more than enough current to drive these tough cans with authority giving deep detailed bass. While i do miss the slam of the dt-150 its still enough to make pop and rock somewhat enjoyable . The k701 is relatively new with about 300+ hours on it so far so I guess it might still change, albiet very little
   
  An interesting pairing is with the ksc-75's. There is so much spare current that tracks with deep electornis bass do cause the drivers to rattle a little! The smother signature does tame the highs a little but not quite enough. Awesome paring for listening to pop or heavy rock.
   
  Overall I think these work well with brighter (er-4) - neutral (k701) phones with the best paring so far with the 701. Am still contemplating  getting a dt-800 600ohm to try out


----------



## eclipes

When did you purchase yours then?
  
  Quote: 





raptor84 said:


> I thought I had the new version given all the jumpers but when i opened it to check it was the older version :\ Ah well no regrets for the price though!
> 
> I can only compare it to my udac-2 which served me well for about 1 year since. As mentioned earlier when paired with the dt-150 it did give a much more detailed bass response. Probably given it had much more current to drive it with. I did notice that the highs had less of a sparkle compared to the udac-2. It does make the overall presentation a little "heavy" though.
> 
> ...


----------



## raptor84

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> When did you purchase yours then?


 

 I paid up in early July but it only got shipped out mid-july due to a logistical complication.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





raptor84 said:


> Overall I think these work well with brighter (er-4) - neutral (k701) phones with the best paring so far with the 701. Am still contemplating  getting a dt-800 600ohm to try out


 
   
  I have DT880 600ohms.  I'll compare the headphone out of this vs my other amp (HiFiMan EF5) and post comparisons.


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I have DT880 600ohms.  I'll compare the headphone out of this vs my other amp (HiFiMan EF5) and post comparisons.


 

 Would love to see a comparison between the NFB-12 and a tube amp like the HiFiMan EF5.


----------



## ac500

I'm curious if anyone knows the difference technical or signal-wise between Lo/High Gain, compared to simply turning the volume knob.


----------



## jimbob747

I'm having a little trouble 'warming' to the NFB-12, haven't had it very long and it's been awhile since i've really focused on HP out instead of balanced... It was just a cheap option for something to listen to in bed, as i've still got a few standard cans.

 The reason I bought this over the NFB-11 or Martix etc... Is the supposed 'warm' sound, rounding off the high end which I thought'd be ideal for bed. Anyway, comparing it using both optical and as a USB sound card for my laptop (using DAC out of the NFB to Yamaha A-S1000 to EB Acoustics EB2s) compared to the Marantz CD7003 (which i wouldn't consider warm) I found the midrange a little recessed... Noone else? Anyone even have that as a first impression? I'm sure i'll 'burn in' and get used to it but i've got a feeling, coming upstairs I'm always going to be a little disappointed (which in all honesty i did expect, but not from the midrange).

 Maybe my CD7003 is warmer than I thought?
 I'd love to hear some feedback maybe it's some source problem i'll have to fiddle with everything and have a look.

 Sounds fine out of the headphone out though, the only thing that could be different is... Oh no, Snake oil... CABLES. I'll have to do some serious checking before i start tricking myself into the 'magical world of cables'. Might be able to fix it with my glass hammer...


----------



## oculus

Once the brain has acclimatized to the sound difference, you should really enjoy the nfb-12. Brain burn in takes 2-4 days


----------



## tme110

There is no other difference.
  
  Quote: 





ac500 said:


> I'm curious if anyone knows the difference technical or signal-wise between Lo/High Gain, compared to simply turning the volume knob.


----------



## tme110

I've seen quite  a few posts from people using the -12 as a DAC only or asking about using it as a DAC - if that's what you're after, why not just get the -3?  I realize it's a little more but it would be a noticably better DAC.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> I've seen quite  a few posts from people using the -12 as a DAC only or asking about using it as a DAC - if that's what you're after, why not just get the -3?  I realize it's a little more but it would be a noticably better DAC.


 


  Main difference is the caps and PSU?  Noticeably better with casual listening or only with critical/focused?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





sysfail said:


> Would love to see a comparison between the NFB-12 and a tube amp like the HiFiMan EF5.


 
   
  Did some listening tonight.  Here are my impressions:
   
  SACD player: Sony DVP-NC685V DVD/SACD player using optical out.  Used for CD's only since SACD layer doesn't output from optical or coax.
  NFB-12 as DAC using primarily default *[size=small]2X oversampling , Linear phase 'brickwall' filter[/size]**[size=small] [/size]*setting, but also switched into *8x minimum phase apodising digital filter*
  HiFiMan EF5 with Fullmusic 12AU7 tube and AD797AR opamp mod (replace stock OP275)
  Beyerdynamic DT880-600ohm
   
  The NFB-12 has about 75hrs on it so far.
   
  Music used:
  1) Kind of Blue (Miles Davis): Track 6: Flamenco Sketches (Alternate Take) - picked because the bass in the beginning seems deeper than the normal take and Miles horn is quite piercing when it comes in around 20s
  2) Yellow Submarine Songtrack - 1999 Remastered (Beatles): Track 3: Eleanor Rigby - picked because of vocals and strings
  3) Yellow Submarine Songtrack - 1999 Remastered (Beatles): Track 10: Baby You're a Rich Man - picked because of bass in the beginning
  4) Concord Jazz Sampler Vol 2 (various): Track 6: The Waters of March (Susannah McCorckle) - picked for smooth vocals, piano
   
  Unless otherwise noted, the comments below are with the default 2x brickwall filter.  In comparing HP amps, I used NFB-12 HP out (High Gain) or Fixed setting RCA outputs into the EF5.
   
*Listening Impressions:*
  Bass: NFB-12 HP had stronger bass, possibly deeper as well.  I just felt it more, especially on Flamenco and Baby.  EF5 bass wasn't weak - I heard it fine (though perhaps not as deep), but didn't "feel" the strength of it like I did on the NFB-12
   
  Detail: EF5 definitely had more detail, clarity, definition on both midrange and highs.  Very evident on vocals and strings (Eleanor and The Waters), but pretty obvious on all tracks.  I would go so far as to say the NFB-12 HP out was veiled.
   
  Highs: NFB-12 seemed to have rolled off highs.  While I know the DAC itself is supposed to have this characteristic, the HP out of the NFB-12 seemed to add to this effect, as the EF5 was fed by the same DAC and the highs were much more evident on it.
   
  Soundstage: Didn't try to compare this in detail on this listening session.  Will listen for this on my next session.
   
  Even though the Beyers are supposed to on the brighter side, the combination of warm DAC and additional rolled off/veiled HP out (compared to EF5) was too much for me.  It's a nice, pleasant, relaxed listen, but I feel like I'm missing out on what's actually there in the music.  In any scenario I can think of, I would opt for using the EF5 as my HP amp.
   
*Digital Filter Setting (8x Minimum Phase Apodising Filter):*
  Having read the earlier posts (~page 32 and beyond) about 44KHz sources being excessively rolled off and 8x apodising filters recovering some of that roll-off, I reset my jumpers to go from the 2x brickwall default to the 8x minimum phase apodising option.
   
  It definitely did bring back some of the high frequencies.  It may have been my imagination, but I thought I lost just a bit of the strength on the low side.  With this setting, the NFB-12 HP out improved, but still wasn't on the same level as the EF5 even at the previous 2x brickwall setting.  The EF5 with the 8x apodising filter as expected had additional high frequencies.  
   
  If I could only listen to NFB-12 HP out's, I would opt for the 8x apodising filter for sure.  Out of the EF5, I haven't decided whether I prefer the 2x brickwall or 8x apodising because I didn't spend enough time comparing the two, but this could be a mood dependent call where if I felt like I wanted a more relaxed listen, I'd choose the 2x and if I wanted all the detail/highs possible, choose the 8x.
   
  There are nine settings, and I'm not really motivated to try them all.  Most all of my content/sources are 44KHz.
   
*Final Thoughts:*
  The NFB-12 HP out doesn't sound bad.  Without a point of comparison, I'd have probably been content with it.  But even with the Beyers, it seems to veil too much of the detail and highs for me.  
   
  The EF5 with NFB-12 DAC is a good combination.  I plan on doing some additional comparisons between the built-in SACD DAC and the NFB-12 to really see if I can tell the difference.  I just did a very brief listen on the EF5 between both DACs and it wasn't night and day.
   
  I also plan on comparing my IEMs (UE TripleFi 10's and Ety ER-4P's) on the NFB-12 vs the EF5, maybe this weekend.
   
  Last note: So far, I haven't found any good thing to say about the Low gain setting.  It really seems to make the sound dull and boring, and it seems more than just the volume level - meaning if I set on Low gain and crank up the volume, it still seems pretty dull to me at higher volumes.


----------



## captouch

So today I tried to compare the NFB-12 DAC against my SACD player DAC and my old preamp DAC.
   
  Details on DACs:
  1) NFB-12 DAC (dual Wolfson WM8741's using 8x oversampling minimum phase apodising digital filter fed by Sony DVP-NC685V optical out
  2) Sony DVP-NC685V DVD/SACD internal DAC (no details on what it uses)
  3) Sony TAE77-ESD pre-amp internal DACs (only described as "Dual d/a converters with 4fs digital filter") - this is a late 80's Sony ES product.  http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-E77ESD.html
   
  Speakers: Alon II
  Speaker cable: Kimber Kable 8TC bi-wire
  PreAmp: Sony TAE77-ESD in Source Direct mode (bypasses tone controls)
  Amp: B&K EX442 (200W/ch)
   
  Same music selections as in my last post.
   
  At first, in blind testing then checking my preferences based on DAC, the NFB-12 came out clearly ahead, with the Sony SACD DAC's being slightly preferable to the pre-amp internal DACs.  The NFB-12 was much better in bass, detail, clarity - no comparison.  
   
  Then. . .I decided to take my SPL meter and measure the volume levels.  The NFB-12 output was 2dB higher than the other two, so I switched from Fixed to Variable mode and adjusted the NFB-12 volume control until it was at parity with the others.
   
  THEN, honestly, I couldn't tell the difference to any significant degree.  They all sounded good - full, detailed, similar soundstage.  The Alon is supposed to be a detailed, revealing speaker, so I don't think it was just being masked by the speakers.
   
  But it really surprised me that I could not tell any significant difference between a new DAC, a built-in DAC, and 20+ year old DAC.  Which was actually kind of disappointing, but not too disappointing since they all sounded good.  
   
  I was at this for a couple of hours, so it is possible that I had aural fatigue by the time I actually volume leveled and tried to listen for differences, but in any case, it wasn't night and day by any means.
   
  Interesting.
   
  I should be able to perform similar comparison using my DT880's instead of the Alon II's, but I will have to use the HP output of my TAE77-ESD pre-amp - I'm not sure if it's very capable of driving the 600ohm DT880's, but it's worth a try, or I can use my IEM's which are much easier to try.  Maybe I'll try this tomorrow.


----------



## Elanzer

Earlier in the thread a user named supercurio had made the measurement that High gain should always be used, as setting low gain attenuates the signal. On his measurements, it was more like +0dB and -12dB gain rather than +12dB and +0dB gain, between High and Low settings.

High Gain should be a clearer, stronger signal.

I wish my NFB-12 had the options to adjust digital filters, damned early adopter punishment.


----------



## neddamttocs

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> I wish my NFB-12 had the options to adjust digital filters, damned early adopter punishment.


 


  Totally agree with this.


----------



## Tilpo

neddamttocs said:


> Totally agree with this.



Third.
Though I doubt the differences will be that huge.


----------



## captouch

Tried comparing DAC's again (see post #1211) with my Beyer DT880/600's.  Again, no difference of note.  All sounded good.  Maybe, just maybe, the NFB-12 sounded a bit fuller/sweeter, but I wouldn't wager anything on it.
   
  Arguably the three DACs I compared are all relatively high quality.  I have an old '97 RCA DVD player that probably has a cheap DAC - as well as a Sony car CD walkman from the late 80's.  Maybe I'll try those out at some point to see whether I can tell some difference.
   
  Regarding HP amp comparisons (post #1210): Because I can't think of a good consistent/reliable way to SPL meter level the output from the NFB-12 HP out and EF5 out, I can't say for sure that some of my impressions weren't due to different output levels.  I was really fooled by that when I did my initial DAC comparisons, so volume is really important in perceived sound quality.


----------



## neddamttocs

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> Third.
> Though I doubt the differences will be that huge.


 


  Probably not, i personally enjoy mine as is. it would have been nice to have those adjustments though, even if i never used them.


----------



## tme110

I'm pretty sure kingwa picked the filter he thought worked the best so I''d probably never switch them anyway.


----------



## Elanzer

tme110 said:


> I'm pretty sure kingwa picked the filter he thought worked the best so I''d probably never switch them anyway.




Well, adjusting the filtering reduces what samplerates are usable, if you use 8x oversampling you can't use 192khz or 96khz sampling rates. It's set to 2x oversampling for 192khz support to be available, but alot of people will prefer 8x oversampling which limits you to 48khz.


----------



## eclipes

Just got my NFB-12, wow does it sound good. First impression is that I DO prefer the 8X oversampling compared to the stock 2X Brickwall but both do sound pretty good. But prefer the 8X paired up with my tube amp and grados. Burning in at the moment.
   
  what are you guys burning the NFB-12 with? music or pink/white noise???


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> Just got my NFB-12, wow does it sound good. First impression is that I DO prefer the 8X oversampling compared to the stock 2X Brickwall but both do sound pretty good. But prefer the 8X paired up with my tube amp and grados. Burning in at the moment.
> 
> what are you guys burning the NFB-12 with? music or pink/white noise???


 

 I'm burning in with a Squeezebox (so music).
   
  Did you just compare the two (2x brickwall vs 8x min apodising)?  Just curious, as those are the only two I compared.
   
  What was your previous source?  As I wrote earlier, in the end, I couldn't tell the difference between my NFB-12 and two other DACs.


----------



## eclipes

hey captouch, i actually read your post earlier. that is why i only tried brickwall and the 8x minimum phase filter. i think you couldnt tell a difference is because probably your older dacs are just as good. i was using a Udac2 before, so the dac performance was a big jump... especially with the udac it was rather bright so it was tiring when listening with my sr325i. even though my little dot tube helped abit but it was still too much... the nfb-12 is much more comfortable listening to with my tube amp.. just love it!!


----------



## captouch

Eclipes, let me know if you try any other filter settings.  I'm curious if there's a noticeable difference with any of the others.  I did notice a difference between the 2x brickwall and the 8x min phase apodising, but just not between the 8x and my other DACs, which still surprises me given the varying age of the DAC's (even if they're all high quality for their time).
   
  Given that I can't tell the diff between DAC's, I really doubt I could tell the difference between two different DAC's using the WM8741, so at least I'm glad I didn't spend more on implementations using higher end PSU's or caps!


----------



## eclipes

I will definitely let you know when I try other filters. Just curious on what you guys use to cool your dacs and amps. Especially my tube amp, it sounds great and all but its pretty warm and hot sometimes. I don't want my tubes to die so soon. Right now, I have my tube amp and NFB-12 side by side, so the area acts like a mini heater which I don't know if its bad or not. Thinking of a Laptop cooler or something to put under but don't really its necessary and effective.
  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> Eclipes, let me know if you try any other filter settings.  I'm curious if there's a noticeable difference with any of the others.  I did notice a difference between the 2x brickwall and the 8x min phase apodising, but just not between the 8x and my other DACs, which still surprises me given the varying age of the DAC's (even if they're all high quality for their time).
> 
> Given that I can't tell the diff between DAC's, I really doubt I could tell the difference between two different DAC's using the WM8741, so at least I'm glad I didn't spend more on implementations using higher end PSU's or caps!


----------



## Tilpo

As long as they get enough ventilation it should be that bad. Hold your hand near the devices and feel if the air it self is hot. If the air is still hot at a 10-15cm distance, only then you would have a problem.
In that case a cheap computer fan would do the trick, I guess.


----------



## Elanzer

eclipes said:


> I will definitely let you know when I try other filters. Just curious on what you guys use to cool your dacs and amps. Especially my tube amp, it sounds great and all but its pretty warm and hot sometimes. I don't want my tubes to die so soon. Right now, I have my tube amp and NFB-12 side by side, so the area acts like a mini heater which I don't know if its bad or not. Thinking of a Laptop cooler or something to put under but don't really its necessary and effective.




Both my tube amp and my nfb-12 get pretty hot, as a rule of thumb I just don't stack them and I leave about an inch of space between them for airflow. General temperatures seem to stay in check, even when it's hot in my room.


----------



## haloxt

Noctua computer fans and a 5v psu with molex, can get both at newegg. They are very quiet, but a little pricey, but compared to audio rack fans, much better on both counts. Sometimes the fans go on sale.


----------



## eclipes

how many hours do you need to burn in this baby.... I am assuming at least 100+ hours to hear some differences right? its currently at 30hrs


----------



## Tilpo

elanzer said:


> eclipes said:
> 
> 
> > I will definitely let you know when I try other filters. Just curious on what you guys use to cool your dacs and amps. Especially my tube amp, it sounds great and all but its pretty warm and hot sometimes. I don't want my tubes to die so soon. Right now, I have my tube amp and NFB-12 side by side, so the area acts like a mini heater which I don't know if its bad or not. Thinking of a Laptop cooler or something to put under but don't really its necessary and effective.
> ...


'
Imagine putting three components (Power supply, tube pre-amp, DAC) stacked in a closed cabinent. 
Then wait to see which one fries first. :evil:


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Given that I can't tell the diff between DAC's, I really doubt I could tell the difference between two different DAC's using the WM8741, so at least I'm glad I didn't spend more on implementations using higher end PSU's or caps!


 

 Did more listening this morning to compare DACs, this time using some classical, plus I have more hours of BI on the NFB-12.  There is a discernable difference, and the NFB-12 sounds fuller and wider soundstage than my old Sony ES preamp DACs.  The difference vs the Sony SACD player DAC is more subtle, but I do think there's a slight difference.
   
  Satisfied with purchase so far.


----------



## eclipes

I an glad you heard a difference, so it seems the NFB-12 will only get better as time progress.
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> Did more listening this morning to compare DACs, this time using some classical, plus I have more hours of BI on the NFB-12.  There is a discernable difference, and the NFB-12 sounds fuller and wider soundstage than my old Sony ES preamp DACs.  The difference vs the Sony SACD player DAC is more subtle, but I do think there's a slight difference.
> 
> Satisfied with purchase so far.


----------



## eclipes

Oh yeah Captouch, which filter are you using that you heard a difference between your old sony dac?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> Oh yeah Captouch, which filter are you using that you heard a difference between your old sony dac?


 

 I stuck with the 8x min phase apodising.  I screwed on the top cover as well, so I've committed to this filter until I get the motivation to open it back up again.


----------



## captouch

Does anyone know why this ships with two jumper wires, two spare LEDs, and a short piece of cylindrical plastic?


----------



## sysfail

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Does anyone know why this ships with two jumper wires, two spare LEDs, and a short piece of cylindrical plastic?


 






 I didn't get any of that...


----------



## Tilpo

sysfail said:


> I didn't get any of that...



Me neither. 
A special treatment maybe?


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

Haha closing of the day the worker just said "ah... I'll just leave it in here and use it tomorrow."  Than it got shipped with it inside.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





hawaiiancerveza said:


> Haha closing of the day the worker just said "ah... I'll just leave it in here and use it tomorrow."  Than it got shipped with it inside.


 

  
  I get the wires and LEDs as spares/extras that got accidentally thrown in, but can't identify the purpose of that piece of rubber/plastic though.  Maybe it's a licorice drop!


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

Might be.


----------



## Tilpo

So far all the Asians I met hate licorice.
And I know all the Asians I met have tasted licorice, mainly because I'm in the Netherlands on an international school with quite a few Asians. 

My chemistry teacher just loves the sight of foreigners gagging when tasting licorice for the first time.


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

I'm asian and I like licorice. But I can't speak for ALL of them...
  
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> So far all the Asians I met hate licorice.
> And I know all the Asians I met have tasted licorice, mainly because I'm in the Netherlands on an international school with quite a few Asians.
> 
> My chemistry teacher just loves the sight of foreigners gagging when tasting licorice for the first time.


----------



## ac500

I'm not asian and I hate licorice.


----------



## Tilpo

I still don't get how people can hate licorice.
I can understand not liking some varieties, but there are tons of different varieties.
Ever went to the sweets department in a Dutch supermarket? Lot's of different licorice there. *drools*


----------



## satwilson

After suffering thru all the posts in NFB12, I ordered mine 8/26 4AM and received it today @11:30 AM, 1 week after ordering to Kansas, DHL, US248.50, delivered. I am a noob to this site however have been into audiophile/DIY  since the 60's.Will update my profile ASAP, my home system will ROCK/YOU!. Anyway please be patient with my NOOB questions. Need advice on setup, put my old DELL laptop/W7 PRO/ control panel into advanced/96/24 and USB/input via Tenor chip to default. I have SPDIF output in this old Dell, however many posts question the output/vs the Tenor/USB. I am using EAC/Sony Media Go, Foobar/PITA. Using my Sennhd280pros/bought for $40. Sounds incredible w/NFB12. Comments/ advice, headphone upgrade seems to be my best bang for the buck????


----------



## tim3320070

Advice is upgrade the Senn's to something like the Beyerdynamic DT770-600ohm


----------



## Tilpo

My advice is to press the 'Enter' key once in a while. It is also known as the 'Return' key to some. 
It can considerably improve readability of one's forum posts, and is therefore an essential technique that should be known to all those who browse the internet.

But back to the point:
A headphone upgrade is indeed your most immediate concern. 
It all depends on how much money you are willing to spend, as there are great headphones in prices ranging from $50-$5,000.
In my opinion you get the most bang for buck in the $250-$400 range, this is because beyond this range the effects of the law of diminishing returns increases exponentially. That is to say, a $1000 headphone won't be THAT much better than a $300 headphone, despite being three times as expensive.


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

How so?
  
  Quote: 





> a $1000 headphone won't be THAT much better than a $300 headphone, despite being three times as expensive.


----------



## Tilpo

hawaiiancerveza said:


> How so?



Because returns diminish significantly faster above the $400 price point. That's what I learned from lurking this forum at least.
I must admit that I have never heard something better than the HD650 yet, and apart from that it's also extremely subjective as to what a large difference is.


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

I see.  Idk some of the high end stuff only go down a few hundred.  Thats not too bad.  But I guess it's a gamble for people like me in places where they don't get to hear them and only have reviews to go off of.
  
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> Because returns diminish significantly faster above the $400 price point. That's what I learned from lurking this forum at least.
> I must admit that I have never heard something better than the HD650 yet, and apart from that it's also extremely subjective as to what a large difference is.


----------



## Tilpo

I think it's mainly a matter of personal opinion, given that some people spend >$100,000 on their system and still don't think they went too far.
There are also people on the other end of the scale who simply can't imagine spending more than $10 on audio.

And I must admit that I am currently slowly saving up some money to buy me a pair of LCD-2's. So I'm not one to judge the big spenders either.


----------



## tim3320070

Owning and living with the equipment your are reading about, and commenting on, is much more helpful when rendering an opinion. Of the many several full sized headphones I have owned/own, the DT770-600 is the best bang for the buck in closed headphones. This is my experience and opinion. Is also happens to sound great on the NFB12, as does everything else I own.


----------



## tme110

Going up the range in headphones after a few $hundred makes a much more noticable difference than with amps or DACs though.


----------



## tim3320070

Agreed, start with the best sounding headphones (to you) and go from there. You may enjoy a $200 headphone over a $1000 one.


----------



## ac500

I had the opportunity to listen to some LCD-2's a few times another day. The first time I compared against the Senn HD 650, it sounded like there was a huge difference - the LCD-2's being clearly higher resolution. I later listened some more more carefully though, and while the LCD-2s certainly sounded higher resolution, it really wasn't all that huge of a difference once my psychological-burn-in was through. The sound signature was probably a little nicer in the sense that it sounds more flat throughout, but that's not alone enough to make it worth $1000 to me. One funny/perplexing thing was that on one particularly bass heavy piece, I thought "Wow these LCD-2's sound amazingly smooth and precise for such low tones", then I realized I had my HD-650's on. Also, the LCD-2's are too uncomfortable for me, mainly because the headband is not long enough for my head.
   
  Anyway I agree that there's very little difference among good headphones above the $300 range from my experience. Maybe some day I'll buy some $1500 headphones or something for the better detail, but right now I'm quite happy with my NFB-12 and ~$400 headphones


----------



## Theodore

It is for sure.Headphones and loudspeakers, should  improve more,to go near the quality of the other pieces of the chain.


----------



## CantScareMe

wait, wait.
   
  dt770/600 is one of the worst headphones money could buy.
   
  It now comes with bass holes- just to make sure it has more bass than the ghastly dt770 pro80. And covering the holes up doesn't make this headphone much better.
   
  I rank them with or below the beats and bose ranges.


----------



## tim3320070

In _your _opinion, or are you handing down word from above as your post seems to suggest?
  Edit: reeks of troll


----------



## quasio

Hi All,
  Very very close to getting an NFB-12. Currently got a HD555, was thinking of upgrading to the HD650.
  So the plan was to buy an NFB-12, live with that for awhile then grab the HD650 in the future. 
   
  Some previous posts seem to suggest it doesn't pair well with the HD650.
   
  Has anyone tried the capacitor mod to bring it back to NFB-11 type signature?
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/525#post_7252522
   
  Or isit safer to just to spend the extra money and go for the NFB-5 and buy a few different op amps to try it all out? 
   
  (but then if i'm spending 400USD  i might as well get the HD650 first?)
  Ah.. a dilemma.


----------



## Tilpo

The NFB-12 does quite well with the HD 650 in my opinion. Not as well as my tube amp, but there is also a price difference to consider.


----------



## CantScareMe

No, i've had enough experience with headphones in general to not be a troll. 
  You've clearly got pre 2011 dt770/600, which by trust of trustworthy headfiers are pretty good. But I dare you to go out and buy the new dt770/600 (This applies to the uk and in other places- as now all of these beyers come with the bass ports), then you'll see what i'm on about. 
   
   
  I was just checking this nfb-12 forum _as I've shockingly come across something that makes a positive difference to it_. Now I should say, i'm not here to argue as I haven't the time so i'll only say it once. And if you don't agree or do i'm happy for you either way.
   
   
  Okay, i'm someone who likes to test things using two principles: Rigour and a $budget. I let my ears do the deciding but I pay very very special attention to making sure which test I do is as accurate, rigourous, bias free as possible. And enough $ so that I get a decent sample size.
   
*I wanted to see what can improve the sound of a midfi dac/amp- the nfb- without actually replacing or tweaking internal components.*
  For the nfb, the setup was via usb out of a laptop plugged into a typical uk household mains.  
   
  -Difference (that i can detect) between usb cables? hmm..... .........
  NO: used belkins/wireworlds/audioquest/others
  BUT A BIG BUT: definately upgrade the stock cables to something like a £5 belkin as from experience often they have a loose connection to the usb ports and (a long long story cut short) cause BSOD's. 
   
  -Difference between 3pin mains power chord feeding the nfb? .....
  NO: used QED/merlin tarantula/stock/others
   
  -Does Galvanic isolation of the computers usb port via an isolator help? .....
  NOT really (only tested olimex and one other one)
   
  -Difference between internal pc configurations/tweaks like the ones found on ? well yes and no:
  YES: configuring usb port connections/changing foobar or asio settings helped in reducing stutter, glitches and low level noise.  
  NO: ssd/partitioning/cpu or ram usage limiting/other more dangerous tweaks. Clean OS installs and getting rid of windows sound drivers may help for BSOD's.
   
  -Using a mains conditioner make a difference?...
  my god YES. Tested 3 random quality surge protectors and one mains conditioner- tacima 6 way mains conditioner. The tacima mains conditioner makes a notable difference to the sound, put it that way. It's not like skipping from an akg k271 to a denon d500 to the ed8 or something, as still the difference between headphones and for that matter the difference between a crap and well recorded track, are still the biggest ways to experience a difference at headfi in my view. 
  It just seems like this conditioner gives the nfb12 more power. More power to give a better bass response, soundstage and dynamics. Just feels like anything you listen to has more energy and is less laid back. And in case you're wondering I was very careful of volume matching. 
   
   
   
So to summarise the only improvements i've manged to come across are:
  -upgrading to a slightly better branded usb cable
  -making sure that the laptop usb port that your dac/amp is connected to has no other driver installed on it and so is thus used by only your audio equipment.
  -mains conditioner
   
  And other notes:
  - 3 laptops tested xp/w7, 2 different cities, a few different mains outlets.
  - Enough different headphones used. shure se315, mx980, grado gr8, ed8, d500, k271.
  - Only posted this as I thought maybe it might be interesting for a few people
  - Quite a few of the products that I selected were discovered from whathifi's website.


----------



## captouch

tilpo said:


> The NFB-12 does quite well with the HD 650 in my opinion. Not as well as my tube amp, but there is also a price difference to consider.




I'm a little surprised, as the NFB-12 really seems to mellow out the detail and to some degree highs (while adding more lows) on my DT880's, compared to my Hifiman EF5 with AD797 opamp mod. Which I prefer depends upon the material. So far, the EF5 hasn't been fatiguing, and the NFB-12 isn't bad to listen to, just a lot more laid back.

Since I've read that the HD650 and DT880's are on opposite ends of the laid back vs bright/clinical spectrum, I would have guessed the HD650's might be too tamed on the NFB-12. I've been thinking of later picking up a pair of HD650's as a contrast to the Beyers.

I think my next purchase will be a Bottlehead Crack, which I've read does well with both cans. I'm really curious how it compares to the NFB-12 and EF5 sound signatures.


----------



## jTizMLG

Does the NFB-12 have a dedicated DAC?
   
  Or is it just a mini-dac like on the Sparrow?


----------



## Tilpo

Yes it has a dedicated DAC, and a good one at that.
In fact I use only the DAC section, and even then it's still worth the $200. 

In my opnion it's more like a DAC with a 'mini' headphone amp circuit. And besides, a good amp is good for a DAC as well, since the signal needs to be amplified to line level in any case.


----------



## jTizMLG

So, it does not have a dedicated AMP?
  
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> Yes it has a dedicated DAC, and a good one at that.
> In fact I use only the DAC section, and even then it's still worth the $200.
> 
> In my opnion it's more like a DAC with a 'mini' headphone amp circuit. And besides, a good amp is good for a DAC as well, since the signal needs to be amplified to line level in any case.


----------



## Tilpo

jtizmlg said:


> So, it does not have a dedicated AMP?



It does, don't get me wrong.

What I meant is that it is a regular amp/DAC combo, but the focus is laid on the DAC.


----------



## ac500

Does that mean, for example, someone with an HD 650 (which is supposed to scale well) and an NFB-12 could scale to notably better sound quality by buying a better Amp to add after the NFB-12?
   
  In other words how much does the NFB-12 Amp leave to be desired?


----------



## jTizMLG

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> It does, don't get me wrong.
> 
> What I meant is that it is a regular amp/DAC combo, but the focus is laid on the DAC.


 


  Would you consider the NFB-12 to be at this "Hi-Fi" level?


----------



## Tilpo

jtizmlg said:


> Would you consider the NFB-12 to be at this "Hi-Fi" level?



I don't quite understand what you mean.


ac500 said:


> Does that mean, for example, someone with an HD 650 (which is supposed to scale well) and an NFB-12 could scale to notably better sound quality by buying a better Amp to add after the NFB-12?
> 
> In other words how much does the NFB-12 Amp leave to be desired?



I notice that my Little Dot MKIV sounds noticeably better than the NFB-12's headphone output.
It's not a huge difference, but in my opinion still worth the money. 

Therefore I would say that the amp of the NFB-12 does leave something to be desired, and it's worth investing in a better amp and using the NFB-12 as a dedicated DAC. Especially having future headphone upgrades in mind.


----------



## captouch

I agree with Tilpo.  Based on what I've heard so far, the headphone output on the NFB-12 is nothing special - I had hoped for better.  It's usable, but it doesn't do justice to better headphones.  On bad recordings where you want to minimize the details/harshness, etc, it could be beneficial, but it's not at all revealing and PRaT isn't really there to my ears.  I haven't done any comparisons to see how it compares with the headphone outs of my Sony ES pre-amp, but I'll try that later.  Most of my listening has been with 600ohm DT880's, so I may do more listening later with low impedance IEMs to double check these impressions.
   
  The DAC is definitely an improvement over my Sony ES built-in DACs though.  I'm satisfied with it as a DAC.


----------



## satwilson

There are alot of late comers to this thread. This is one of the best DAC/HEADPHONE units available. There are few DACS greater than this<$1000/Best Solid State Headphone Amp, Jump in there if you can!


----------



## ac500

Best solid state headphone amp? I'm curious after Tilpo and captouch's comments if this is sufficient to do justice to higher end stuff like say LCD-2's. I'm just thinking ahead in case I upgrade, but from what I'm hearing it seems this DAC is sufficient at least, but the Amp might be lacking?


----------



## jTizMLG

I think I may get the NFB-12 along with the HD650.....
   
  Any last second suggestions?


----------



## zenki14

To be honest, I think the amp section certainly does fine for this price range, if you consider it as mainly being a DAC and the amp being a bonus feature.  It's just not up to it against amps that are in a bit higher prices ($200 to $400).  I think the DAC section has goods and bads too.
   
  I sold the NFB-12 a while ago and went to the Little Dot DAC_I and MK VII+.
  Yesterday I just received the Matrix mini-i, burning in now.
   
  I think later I'll post a comparison and thoughts about these setups.
   
  For now I can just say if you want to get the most out of expensive headphones,
  you're probably missing quite a lot you can experience if you just stick to combo units like the NFB-12..


----------



## quasio

lol.. the NFB-5 and in all my readings.. nuforce hdp..
   
  but yes i haven't tried any of them, trying to wade through the pool of info before spendin me dough.


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

What of the NFB-5?
  
  Quote: 





quasio said:


> lol.. the NFB-5 and in all my readings.. nuforce hdp..
> 
> but yes i haven't tried any of them, trying to wade through the pool of info before spendin me dough.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Best solid state headphone amp? I'm curious after Tilpo and captouch's comments if this is sufficient to do justice to higher end stuff like say LCD-2's. I'm just thinking ahead in case I upgrade, but from what I'm hearing it seems this DAC is sufficient at least, but the Amp might be lacking?


 


  I don't think you can spend $250 and get a good DAC and something that will do justice to the LCD-2's.  There's a whole long thread on amplification for the LCD-2's, which I've heard are power-hungry.  So if you buy this, buy it for the DAC.  With coax/opt/USB and 9-way digital filters, you'll have a lot of versatility on inputs and digital filter tuning.  You can use the HP out in the interim (I agree with zenki14, look at it as a bonus), while you research the best amp choice for the LCD-2's.  As long as you do your homework/research, what you buy later as an amp will be a nice upgrade from the NFB-12 HP outs and you'll have a nice DAC feeding it.


----------



## quasio

Someone was asking about the alternatives to NFB-12 for a HD650 and i suggested the NFB-5, being able to change op-amps.. 
  i'm deciding myself.. but i'm leaning towards the 5 atm.
  Quote: 





hawaiiancerveza said:


> What of the NFB-5?


----------



## Tilpo

captouch said:


> I don't think you can spend $250 and get a good DAC and something that will do justice to the LCD-2's.  There's a whole long thread on amplification for the LCD-2's, which I've heard are power-hungry.  So if you buy this, buy it for the DAC.  With coax/opt/USB and 9-way digital filters, you'll have a lot of versatility on inputs and digital filter tuning.  You can use the HP out in the interim (I agree with zenki14, look at it as a bonus), while you research the best amp choice for the LCD-2's.  As long as you do your homework/research, what you buy later as an amp will be a nice upgrade from the NFB-12 HP outs and you'll have a nice DAC feeding it.



This.

So far I know that one of the cheapest amps and most popular amps for driving the LCD-2 is the Schiit Lyr, at $449.
There might be some other's but expect to shell out at least $400 unless you are some DIY genius.

Running an LCD-2 out of a NFB-12 won't sound bad, but you could make it a lot better.


----------



## YoengJyh

Guys,
   
  Would like to ask that NFB-12 about how much in usd?


----------



## jTizMLG

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> Guys,
> 
> Would like to ask that NFB-12 about how much in usd?


 


  $230 shipped


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





jtizmlg said:


> $230 shipped


 


  But i stay in Singapore, thinking about how to get this if i want.


----------



## jTizMLG

Quote: 





yoengjyh said:


> But i stay in Singapore, thinking about how to get this if i want.


 


  http://www.audio-gd.com/Shipping%20cost.htm


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

go for it.  I should be getting mine tomorrow.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
  
  Quote: 





quasio said:


> Someone was asking about the alternatives to NFB-12 for a HD650 and i suggested the NFB-5, being able to change op-amps..
> i'm deciding myself.. but i'm leaning towards the 5 atm.


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





jtizmlg said:


> http://www.audio-gd.com/Shipping%20cost.htm


 

 Wah! Thanks a lot man!


----------



## YoengJyh

Guys,
   
  Little Dot MKiii better or NFB-12 better?


----------



## Elanzer

yoengjyh said:


> Guys,
> 
> Little Dot MKiii better or NFB-12 better?




MKIII is just an amp, not a DAC.

NFB-12 by itself is far, far superior than running the MKIII off onboard sound or something like a Xonar DX, from my own experience. NFB-12 + MKIII is indeed better than just the NFB-12, but remove the NFB-12 from the equation and it all falls apart.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> MKIII is just an amp, not a DAC.
> 
> NFB-12 by itself is far, far superior than running the MKIII off onboard sound or something like a Xonar DX, from my own experience. NFB-12 + MKIII is indeed better than just the NFB-12, but remove the NFB-12 from the equation and it all falls apart.


 
   
  It took me awhile to tell the difference between the built-in DAC of my SACD player (DVP-NC685V) vs the NFB-12 DAC.  After further listening, I do think the NFB-12 DAC is better.  
   
  BUT. . .if I had to choose between a) coax/optical out of my SACD player into NFB-12 and using the NFB-12 HP out, versus b) using analog out of my SACD player into my Hifiman EF5 amp, I'd choose the SACD/EF5 option easily for SQ.  Granted, it wouldn't be as flexible since I wouldn't have the USB option anymore, but for my case with my DT880/600's, the HP amp made a much bigger difference in SQ than the DAC.  Because I bought NFB-12 new and the EF5 used, both cost me the same (~$250), but it's not a real apples-to-apples cost comparison since the EF5 costs $499 new.
   
  There are no specifics on my SACD DAC, other than "192kHz/24-bit audio D/A converter", so it is possible that this DAC is better than an average one.
   
  But if I was on a budget, I'd consider the quality of my existing source and what kind of flexibility I needed before concluding that getting a high quality DAC that happened to come with a HP amp was a better option than getting a high quality HP amp.


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> MKIII is just an amp, not a DAC.
> 
> NFB-12 by itself is far, far superior than running the MKIII off onboard sound or something like a Xonar DX, from my own experience. NFB-12 + MKIII is indeed better than just the NFB-12, but remove the NFB-12 from the equation and it all falls apart.


 

 But NFB-12 is made by China, worth? The machine itself will get hot after running in few hours or not?
   
  I am worry it burns after 1 month running..
   
  >.<


----------



## Elanzer

yoengjyh said:


> But NFB-12 is made by China, worth? The machine itself will get hot after running in few hours or not?
> 
> I am worry it burns after 1 month running..
> 
> >.<




Littledot amps are made in china as well.

Also, both the MKIII and NFB-12 get pretty toasty under normal use. Often I'll leave them both on for days at a time, and they've run for like half a year like this without any issue.


----------



## jTizMLG

The NFB-12 would drive the HD650 properly...
   
  Correct?


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





jtizmlg said:


> The NFB-12 would drive the HD650 properly...
> 
> Correct?


 


  Ya, i think so. I read the specification from the website. Impedance for the range of 15 to 600ohm. HD650 only 300. Should be ok. "!';..;'!"


----------



## tim3320070

It drives my DT770/600ohm with plenty to spare. It will absolutely drive the HD650.


----------



## Tilpo

yoengjyh said:


> Ya, i think so. I read the specification from the website. Impedance for the range of 15 to 600ohm. HD650 only 300. Should be ok. "!';..;'!"



Impedance isn't the only determining factor.

But yes, I does drive the HD 650 fine. However an HD 650 will sound even greater if you buy a separate headphone amp later.


----------



## inter4ever

How is the NFB-12 compared to the E7/E9 combo? I am thinking of getting one for my Denon D2000, but I am still not sure which one to choose.


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





inter4ever said:


> How is the NFB-12 compared to the E7/E9 combo? I am thinking of getting one for my Denon D2000, but I am still not sure which one to choose.


 

 Based on what i read from this forum. GO ahead with the NFB-12. E7/E9 is out if compare with them.


----------



## Tilpo

Both are popular, but the E7/E9 combo is slightly cheaper at around $180 instead of $200. Shipping will also be higher on the NFB-12, creating a total of about $50, or %20 difference. 

From what I understand the NFB-12 is better, but I have never seen a detailed review comparing both side to side. 
You made me curious, so I'll now scour the internet for said review. :rolleyes:


----------



## YoengJyh

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> Both are popular, but the E7/E9 combo is slightly cheaper at around $180 instead of $200. Shipping will also be higher on the NFB-12, creating a total of about $50, or %20 difference.
> 
> From what I understand the NFB-12 is better, but I have never seen a detailed review comparing both side to side.
> You made me curious, so I'll now scour the internet for said review.


 

  
  Depends on how is the usage. If u want portable then go for E7/E9, and it is depends on your country too. For me, i couldn't order E7/E9 from internet so... it will be expensive if compare with those local dealer even i order from audio-gd with extra shipping cost.
   
  For good comparison, you better bring your cans and visit those headphone shop and request for testing in FiiO amp and NFB amp.
   
  Good Luck lo~


----------



## AVU

I've had the E7 and while it was a good DAC I don't think it holds a candle to the Audio-GD.  It's just not possible in that size, for one thing. But if you want portability, the E7 is great.


----------



## Elanzer

E7 has a lower grade DAC (single WM8740 vs dual WM8741 on NFB-12), and NFB-12's amplifier is roughly twice as powerful than the E9.


----------



## juantendo8

Hey guys, to construct my computer rig, I've decided to invest in an amp/dac. I only have one pair of headphones to be using it with, namely the Beyer DT880 600 ohms. Would the NFB-12 be best or would something like the Uber Muzik Tiny Tube DAC or the Maverick D1 power them and sound better? I've heard that the Beyers sound excellent and are powered better with tube amps.


----------



## mrspeakers

Just posted a review...
   
   
*Pros:* Rugged build-quality, overall smooth and detailed sound, abundance of power, flexible interfaces
*Cons:* A bit of grain, clunky ergonomics and design, lack of 88.2 on USB

    

*Pros: *Built like a tank, particularly amazing at the price point.  Sound is very melodious.   Solid sound, exceptional for the price point.  Huge power, 1750mW/channel at 25ohm, and 75 into 600ohm, and all discrete topology.  Internal discrete power supply.  Customizable digital filters and upsampling. 

   

*Cons*:  No analog input, Tenor chip on USB means no 88.2 native, a manual to explain the little plastic bits that show up in a bag would be nice, very hard to communicate due to language.  Changing digital filters requires removing the cover (seriously, why not a DIP switch on the back guys?)

   

   

*Decisions…*

   

  I wanted a desktop DAC/AMP for my office.  My goals were cheap and bulletproof operation, and multiple inputs to support my various devices.  I have used a D12 for this purpose, but moving it from home to work every day and constantly plugging stuff in and out seemed like a lot of effort. 

   

  I considered the NuForce HDP seriously.  It’s a very elegant unit, and they appear to have done a smashing job on the DAC, in particular.  However, for my budget, it was more than I really wanted to spend at work, because honestly I do critical listening in my man-cave, on the Mac/Burson 160D rig. 

   

  I thought of another D12, but when I saw the Audio GD NFB-12, I liked the idea of the discrete topology, as well as the fact that it had the same DAC I have enjoyed in the D12.

   

  Time to order.  Well, it was weird.  Audio-GD is very Chinese.  The website is about the worst I’ve ever seen, and while I got same-day response to every question, I had to ask my questions over several times in different ways, and on some issues, like shipping fees, never actually understood the answer.  I used Paypal as a way to ensure that if I didn’t get what I expected I would have some financial remedies available. 

   

   

*Arrival and Unboxing*

   

  Via DHL, it took four working days from placing my order to delivery, not quite as quick as the iBasso D12, but pretty snappy.  When the Audio-GD NFB-12 arrived, it was in a generic, heavily taped cardboard box.

   

  Inside, the unit was armored in tape and foam, very beefy packing for a small unit.  On unwrapping the unit, I found a few spare LEDs and some plastic bits with no docs to explain them. Given the MTBF of LEDs, I don’t get why there are extras at all.  There was also a four wire connector with no explanation and generic/cheap USB and TOSLINK cables.  The shorting jumpers, I figured out going back to the website, are for changing the upsampling rates and the type of digital filter used.  (I didn’t have this info when I bought the product… Whoopee, an unexpected, very cool extra feature!).   Very geeky, and probably much easier to have done using a DIP on the back of the enclosure. 

   

  The fit and finish is OK but not stellar.  The metalwork is not particularly high tolerance, and the design is, well, functional.  The switches are old-school, and even partially cover the text on the front panel.  Also, for some reason the font size varies, being larger for Gain and Volume than for Output and Input. 

   

  The metal is rounded, which is nice, and is pleasingly hefty.  The unit does feel more like industrial gear than a HP amp, it’s quite “built” in the way that Arnold Schwarzenegger used to be…  I note that in the back corner, the metal is not well aligned, there’s about a 0.3 mm height variance in the metalwork, so it’s not flush.  Also, the metal had a lot of oil on it and took a few passes to get clean.  The volume pot had a very nice feel to it, and tracked extremely well at low levels.

   

  On the back panel, the connectors are very high quality, way beyond what one would expect for $240 (DHL shipping included).   In fact, this unit was roughly $40 less than the D12. 

   

  I think the best way to describe it is that the FEEL and look of the unit is high-end US Audio gear from the 1980s, functional and tough, with a discrete high-quality components vs. the ICs and op-amps of the consumer market. 

   

   

*Setup for Test*

   

  I am using 100% lossless audio for testing, 16/44.1, 24/88.2 and 24/96, stored on a firewire drive, feeding a MacBook Pro, via iTunes and PureMusic.  Outputs are being tested via USB and via M2Tech HiFace for SPDIF. 

   

  Phones include the LCD-2, Rastapants T50rp mod, and JH16 IEMs. 

   

  Generally, I prefer to use upsampling to 88.2 for my CDs, but as the NFB-12 uses the Tenor chipset, I left the unit in 44.1 for USB.  Unfortunately much of my HD music is in 88.2, so I can only get that via TOSLINK or SPDIF. 

   

  Thus, my methodology will be to test via USB at native 44.1 only, so as to compare the D12 and the NFB-12.  I will then compare the two devices via TOSLINK and SPDIF at 88.2 and 96KHz. 

   

  Once this is done, I will output the DAC from the NFB-12 to the D12 (the NFB does not have an analog input, USB, Coax and TOSLINK only, another limitation of the NFB-12).

   

   

   

*The Sound via USB*

  I very much have enjoyed my time with the NFB-12 so far. 

   

  On the excellent Kirov Orchestra performance of Prokofiev’s Romeo and Juliette, the interplay between the strings was beautifully rendered during “The Balcony Scene.”  Cellos had real bit to them, and the violins had a very pleasing tone to them, though I felt a degree of air was absent that I’m used to from higher end gear, and the sound had a somewhat darker character than I’d expected.

   

  Things became much more lively when I popped on Mozart’s Piano Trio.  The sound was lively and crisp, the instruments well placed, and the sense of stage rather palpable.  Piano was percussive, grain-free and with a lovely sense of decay and black-space between the notes. 

   

  Keith Jarrett’s Paris/London Testament, Part VIII in 24/96 simply had me shutting my eyes and having a good listen.  This DAC/AMP is just great for Piano.  Beautiful overtones, no grain. 

   

  Switching to female vocals and rock, on Cowboy Junkies title song “Something More Beside You,” Margo Timmins voice was smoothly articulated in a well defined space, again, without the grain that is so often an overlay on female vocals.  The cymbals came through nice and brassy, without sounding like buckshot in a frying pan (again, the lack of grain). 

   

  The amp section is clearly way more powerful than I’ll ever need with phones.  My low impedance JH16 was as loud as I want on “Low” gain at 9 o’clock, and the T50 and LCD-2 never felt the want for reserves.  It seemed this amp would go way louder than sanity or OSHA standards would dictate.   Volume pot tracking, btw, was perfect down to dead-silence, even on the IEM.

   

  The unit does show some limitations on classical, which probably explain why the piano trio was simply more fun than the orchestra.  In general, the treble feels a bit and lacking in extension, almost soft.  At the other end of the spectrum, the bass section sounded a bit muddy, like the amp does not have quite the control I’d expect, given the low output impedance and how power rating.  There’s power, but as Yoda says, “control, you must learn control!”  For orchestral pieces, these limitations make the amp a bit dark, but not distractingly so.  For rock, some tracks came off feeling a bit bass heavy, though again this was not to the point of being a distraction, and at the price point is hardly objectionable. 

   

   

*Comparing the NFB-12 and D12*

   

  In a sense, this is an unfair test.  The power supply and power output of the NFB-12 almost assures it will sound better.  At comparable price points, the D12 has to deliver a lot of functionality, including being self powered, and offering analog inputs, in about 1/12 the volume, and has to be designed to be a power miser, which usually means class A/B op amp operation instead of class A.  So this is not meant to detract from the D12 or to be unfair, rather, it’s to take a comparison in performance of a great portable DAC/Amp relative to a budget desktop unit with a lot of high-end concepts in the design.

   

  On Nine Horses’ “Snow Borne Sorrow” I listened repeatedly to “The Banality of Evil” and found the differences to be very apparent in the vocals and strummed guitar.  The NFB-12 had a richer sound to it, while the D12 felt then.  The NFB-12 simply conveyed a more robust sense of “presence” to the vocals, while the D12 added some grain in the top registers.  Male and female vocals had a continuous structure of harmonic integrity, in other words the voice didn’t feel like the voice plus overtones, and it was very grain free.  The strumming of the guitar came through a little more crisply on the D12, but it felt comparatively etched and a bit thin, lacking in the sense of body a guitar should have. 

   

  Comparing the Kirov Romeo and Juliet, the NFB-12 had a lusher and more spacious sound.  Both units did a very respectable job presenting complex passages without congestion, but the NFB-12 had an edge in spatial delivery and in air around the instruments, and on occasion the D12 sounded strident on strings.  When listening to cellos, the D12 has an element of grain to it that was extremely low on the NFB-12, though totally absent on the Burson (just to note this amp is excellent, but not a giant-killer).

   

  On Younger Brother’s Vaccine, in Pound a Rhythm, the percussion in the D12 felt a bit thin and dry, and the treble somewhat etched in comparison the the NFB-12, which frankly rocked.  The drums were more percussive and you could hear the strike of the sticks on the drumheads very clearly.  The NFB-12 also threw a much bigger soundstage, and gave a real wild sonic ride on Safety in Numbers. 

   

   

*Conclusion so Far*

  This is not a giant killer, but at $240 at my door, it’s rather remarkable to get bulletproof construction and a fully discrete amp with audiophile-grade parts throughout.  The overall impression was a highly competent performance via USB, and while a bit less open and slightly more grainy than the Burson, it was a distinct step-up from a D12.  Sound was powerful, spatially well presented, with easy dynamics, good sense of air and black-space, and pretty low levels of grain (something that really bugs me).


 When compared to the slightly more expensive, but portable iBasso D12, the NFB-12 was clearly more musical, vastly more powerful, and probably going to last years longer.  If you need portability, of course, the D12 is a quality choice with excellent performance, but if portability is not a consideration, the less expensive NFB-12 is the clear winner on sound quality, and validates the notion that at a given price, desktop is likely to be higher performance than portable.

   

  The bottom line is that this amp seems to be a ridiculously good value at the price point.  It’s an entry into a real audiophile level of construction and performance at a bargain basement price.

   

*Next Installment*

  In part 2, I’ll play with the digital filter settings, and hopefully compare the TOSLINK and SPDIF inputs.  The unit offers a selection of filters, from 2X up to 8x (though only at 48K or 44.1K inputs), with differing filter functions, such as linear phase, soft knee, brickwall, and a “linear phase apodising filter.”  Sounds scary, huh?  The filter settings are done manually by removing the cover and using the little "easy-to-lose" plastic jumpers.

   

*Installment After That…*

  In part 3, I’ll try to compare the variable amp outputs by driving the amp section of my Burson.


----------



## turimbar1

^^ yep, I agree on every point up there, I love the gobs of power it provides. The NFB 12 with the fostex t50rp is the only desktop combination I will need in the foreseeable future.
   
  Also I bought it before you could change the upsampling so I am a bit disappointed in that.


----------



## mrspeakers

When I bought this wasn't advertised.  Did any little black plastic pieces come with yours?  If so, that's the jumper kit for the filter...


----------



## mvmv

Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> When I bought this wasn't advertised.  Did any little black plastic pieces come with yours?  If so, that's the jumper kit for the filter...


 

 I got mine a few weeks ago and it came with a little bag of black plastic things and i couldn't work out what they were for. I opened it up though and it doesn't look like the one in the picture so i was wondering if they just sent them by mistake.


----------



## Tilpo

mvmv said:


> I got mine a few weeks ago and it came with a little bag of black plastic things and i couldn't work out what they were for. I opened it up though and it doesn't look like the one in the picture so i was wondering if they just sent them by mistake.



Those 'little plastic things' are jumpers. 

You can use them to change various settings after opening them. Such as the digital filter selection, and the use of the fixed output.

They look like this, right?


----------



## mrspeakers

tilpo said:


> mvmv said:
> 
> 
> > I got mine a few weeks ago and it came with a little bag of black plastic things and i couldn't work out what they were for. I opened it up though and it doesn't look like the one in the picture so i was wondering if they just sent them by mistake.
> ...




Go to the website and on the page they have diagrams for the jumper settings and graphs of the filter settings this selects. Not simple for non technical people, I think.


----------



## mvmv

Yeah those are the ones, i have 13 in a little bag, i wondered what they were so i checked the website and that was when they announced that they had made this upgrade. I took the screws off and had a look inside but the picture on the website of where you swap the jumpers over didn't seem to match mine (think i will double check tonight). Would be nice if i were able to use them.


----------



## SoulLi

Quote: 





mvmv said:


> Yeah those are the ones, i have 13 in a little bag, i wondered what they were so i checked the website and that was when they announced that they had made this upgrade. I took the screws off and had a look inside but the picture on the website of where you swap the jumpers over didn't seem to match mine (think i will double check tonight). Would be nice if i were able to use them.


 


  Those jumpers are also used to changed the output to variable or fixed as they come set on variable from the factory. So even if you had the older version of the nfb-12 they still included you some extra jumpers. Mine did as well and I have the older version with out the new filters also.


----------



## mvmv

Quote: 





soulli said:


> Those jumpers are also used to changed the output to variable or fixed as they come set on variable from the factory. So even if you had the older version of the nfb-12 they still included you some extra jumpers. Mine did as well and I have the older version with out the new filters also.


 
   
  Hey cheers that clears things up. I'll leave them then if i want to stick with variable output, still a great little unit as is.


----------



## eclipes

ok what the hell, I think i hear grain. Anyone?


----------



## mrspeakers

Yes, there is *some*, but it is really minor.  I hear it on massed strings and sometimes female vocals.  Less than my D12, but per my review, that's why I didn't think this was a giant killer.  Still, the grain should be minor, not in your face.   
   
  If you're hearing a LOT of grain, maybe you have a noise problem via USB, if that's the interface you're using?


----------



## ac500

Would the NFB-12 be lacking at all to drive 600ohm headphones (Beyer DT880 600ohm for example)? I assume it's fine, but just want to make sure.


----------



## mrspeakers

It should be fine.  Plenty of voltage swing.  10V RMS with 150mW of power (voltage limited, there's tons of current capability in the unit).


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Would the NFB-12 be lacking at all to drive 600ohm headphones (Beyer DT880 600ohm for example)? I assume it's fine, but just want to make sure.


 

 It gets plenty loud, but it doesn't do justice to the full dynamics that the headphones are capable of, in my experience.  I find it to be basically equivalent to the HP out of my late 80's Sony ES preamp.  
   
  This is good to buy for the DAC and you can use the built-in HP out and it may be better than whatever else you already own.  But if you want to really hear what your 880/600's can do, you'll want to check out discrete amps sooner or later.  I'm using a Hifiman EF5, and there's a noticeable improvement, and I've read the EF5 isn't really the ideal amp either being a hybrid.  My next move will be to get an OTL tube amp to compare against the EF5.


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





captouch said:


> It gets plenty loud, but it doesn't do justice to the full dynamics that the headphones are capable of, in my experience.  I find it to be basically equivalent to the HP out of my late 80's Sony ES preamp.
> 
> This is good to buy for the DAC and you can use the built-in HP out and it may be better than whatever else you already own.  But if you want to really hear what your 880/600's can do, you'll want to check out discrete amps sooner or later.  I'm using a Hifiman EF5, and there's a noticeable improvement, and I've read the EF5 isn't really the ideal amp either being a hybrid.  My next move will be to get an OTL tube amp to compare against the EF5.


 

 Yipes!  How loud do you listen?
   
  The manufacturer specs the max power as 100mW and that there is 96dB efficiency at 1mW, with 150mW that will be 117dB, and from the spec sheet the phone could probably handle 115dB, which is deafening (literally).  
   
  The NFB-12 is class A, and I have never found any lack of dynamics because the amp always runs at a constant power output level (granted, I use all orthos or IEMs with it and they are all 50ohm or less where the Audio-GD has a lot more power, and have not heard this with the DT880, so for all I know the amp does exactly what you say, but I am guessing you like it pretty loud?).


----------



## captouch

mrspeakers said:


> Yipes!  How loud do you listen?
> 
> The manufacturer specs the max power as 100mW and that there is 96dB efficiency at 1mW, with 150mW that will be 117dB, and from the spec sheet the phone could probably handle 115dB, which is deafening (literally).
> 
> The NFB-12 is class A, and I have never found any lack of dynamics because the amp always runs at a constant power output level (granted, I use all orthos or IEMs with it and they are all 50ohm or less where the Audio-GD has a lot more power, and have not heard this with the DT880, so for all I know the amp does exactly what you say, but I am guessing you like it pretty loud?).




I don't listen loud at all - maybe 80-85dB peak is about it. I said the 880/600's DO get plenty loud. I don't even get past 12 o'clock, and I'm hanging out at 10-11 o'clock on most recordings.

What I was saying is that at the same volume levels I get a lot more separation, detail, dynamics with my EF5 vs the NFB-12 HP out, and this is using the NFB-12 out into the EF5, so identical DAC, just the headphone amp is different. Level-matched with a SPL app on my iPhone, so it may not be accurate is the absolute sense from dB standpoint, but I volume match both amp options to be consistent with each other.

The NFB HP out seems to give more weight to the bass and perhaps goes lower in bass frequencies and it smoothes out the highs if that's what you're looking for, but at the loss of detail, separation, and dynamics. With the EF5 on some recordings I do get some more strident highes than I'd prefer, but as far as I can tell, it's the recording. And when the recording is good, the EF5 with NFB DAC and 880/600's sound wonderful. The NFB HP out sounds good, but rarely sounds great.

With all the good things about OTL amps and bang-for-buck, I plan to try the Bottlehead Crack with Speedball as a comparison point to the EF5. But whichever is better, I have a feeling that will be good enough for me - my journey for now will end there. 

All I'm saying is that if one can afford it, I would not end the journey with the NFB-12 HP out if you have the 880/600's. It may be great for other cans, but there's much more to be had in terms of SQ for another $250-$350 (I got my EF5 for $250 used), maybe less (ZombieX had positive things to say about the Phenix G3 OTL tube amp which is $170 shipped). The Crack + Speedball is about $350, but you have to build it.

To me, if I have to strain to hear differences, I've reached the point of diminishing returns. But it was easy to tell the difference between the NFB-12 HP out and EF5 with these particular cans. Price isn't necessarily the best indicator of SQ, but given the EF5 is $499 new for amp only and NFB-12 is $200 new for DAC+amp, this shouldn't be surprising and I'm not knocking the NFB-12 at all. I like it for its DAC and plan to keep it. But even as a good bang-for-buck product, I think it's too much in this case to expect it to be enough for cans that improve a lot with better amplification.


----------



## JHex2

I bought an NFB-12 as my first foray into the audiophile world, and I think it's been great. I just preordered a set of Beyer T70 headphones and am thinking it may be time to upgrade. Would the NFB-12 be good to use as a DAC only in a DAC + Amp setup? Or should I buy a new amp and a new DAC and use the NFB-12 for something else? I know the dual wolfsons in the NFB-12 are pretty highly rated.


----------



## Tilpo

jhex2 said:


> I bought an NFB-12 as my first foray into the audiophile world, and I think it's been great. I just preordered a set of Beyer T70 headphones and am thinking it may be time to upgrade. Would the NFB-12 be good to use as a DAC only in a DAC + Amp setup? Or should I buy a new amp and a new DAC and use the NFB-12 for something else? I know the dual wolfsons in the NFB-12 are pretty highly rated.




The NFB-12 is a pretty good DAC. I don't think there would be a tremendous difference between an NFB-12 and a $500 DAC.
A better amp would make a difference on the other hand, and you can very well use the NFB-12 a dedicated DAC paired with a better amp.


----------



## tim3320070

I agree- the minimum I would do to improve upon the NFB-12 would be the NFB-10 and balance my headphones. I went balls out with the Ref-8 and Phoenix but that was a wallet hit.


----------



## JHex2

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I agree- the minimum I would do to improve upon the NFB-12 would be the NFB-10 and balance my headphones. I went balls out with the Ref-8 and Phoenix but that was a wallet hit.


 


  I was thinking of getting a Burson HA-160. What do you mean by balance the headphones?


----------



## xxhaxx

NFB-10 has a Balance and SE plug


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





jhex2 said:


> I was thinking of getting a Burson HA-160. What do you mean by balance the headphones?


 


  The amp and dac section are balanced which improves overall sound quality to my ear- some may contend the benefits of it.


----------



## JHex2

Strange thing happened yesterday. Now when I turn on my NFB-12, the blue power light does not go on. However, the whole amp gets nowhere near as hot as it did. I still get audio through the headphones and it seems like its still working fine. Is it something that I should bother to mess around with or leave it as is?


----------



## redc

So does anyone here turn off there nfb or any other amp while not in use?


----------



## Brooko

Yep - always turn mine off at night, or if we're going out.  Uses power, costs money - makes sense to turn it off when not in use


----------



## Brooko

Has anybody had a real play around with the filter settings yet?
   
  I've been trying mine tonight (DT880s and Alessandro MS1is) and comparing to the E7/E9.  Really enjoying the NFB-12 so far, and for my amateur ears so far I've found that the 8 x oversampling minimum phase apodising filter seems to suit both of my current cans the best.  Gives a little sparkle and mid-range detail back (not quite so warm).  The majority of my music is 44.1 Flac so I have no real need for higher resolution with my current system.
   
  Would be interested from anyone who's had time to experiment, what filter settings they are using, and with what headphones.


----------



## eclipes

thats the filter im using right now with my grado sr325i and it sounds really good. So i've lost the motivation to try the other filters.
  
  Quote: 





brooko said:


> Has anybody had a real play around with the filter settings yet?
> 
> I've been trying mine tonight (DT880s and Alessandro MS1is) and comparing to the E7/E9.  Really enjoying the NFB-12 so far, and for my amateur ears so far I've found that the 8 x oversampling minimum phase apodising filter seems to suit both of my current cans the best.  Gives a little sparkle and mid-range detail back (not quite so warm).  The majority of my music is 44.1 Flac so I have no real need for higher resolution with my current system.
> 
> Would be interested from anyone who's had time to experiment, what filter settings they are using, and with what headphones.


----------



## captouch

I've been using the 8x oversampling minimum phase apodising filter because I read earlier that it should sound the best and just been too lazy/busy to switch the jumpers to try more.  It did sound better than the default 2x brickwall though.


----------



## ac500

Is there a guide / manual somewhere on what these jumpers do and what's the benefit of the various modes?


----------



## Tilpo

ac500 said:


> Is there a guide / manual somewhere on what these jumpers do and what's the benefit of the various modes?



There is a diagram on the website with instructions. Other than that I don't know if there is an explicit guide somewhere, but you can try googling something such as 'WM8741 Digital filter guide' or reading up on the datasheet of the WM8741


----------



## tme110

I turn all of my equipment off every night - no point in keeping everything hot and wearing all the parts out for no reason.  Plus, yes it wastes power for no reason.


----------



## diegoeffio

how this compares to the audinst mx-1 and the yulong U100? adn how is the compatibility with differents OSs? PC and Mac accepted? does it come with the drivers needed? are they stable?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## ac500

_> PC and Mac accepted? does it come with the drivers needed? are they stable?_
   
  USB works fine on PC and Mac (on mac you just have to set an option). Seems it's some kind of standard SPDIF interface (I don't know much about USB protocols/drivers). 
   
  I do get some skipping "clicks" though occasionally on USB, not sure why. Edit: Optical and coax have no skipping ever.


----------



## Brooko

USB works fine with Linux (Debian Sid) with no issues.  Haven't tried optical or coax - but imagine they should work fine as well.


----------



## Jibbie

I just ordered this fine piece of equipment.  I'll be using it with my Pro 900s and a Denon D2000, and I'll compare it to my Matrix M-Stage/Ibasso D4 setup.  I can't wait.  Hopefully it'll get here in 10 days or so.


----------



## eclipes

waiting to hear your results, im interested in getting the matrix m-stage as well.
  
  Quote: 





jibbie said:


> I just ordered this fine piece of equipment.  I'll be using it with my Pro 900s and a Denon D2000, and I'll compare it to my Matrix M-Stage/Ibasso D4 setup.  I can't wait.  Hopefully it'll get here in 10 days or so.


----------



## Jibbie

I'll definitely write up a review thread comparing the two, as well as a review thread comparing the Pro 900s to the D2000.  I'm going to be quite the busy head-fier in the near future


----------



## abcray

I have the old NFB-12 unit and I have noticed an improve in sound after some burn in. I wish I could try different DAC filters and sound signatures. What's the availability for the company to implement a small module that could attach inside the unit that would allow us to choose filters, by jumpers, pins, whatever? It would be worth an upgrade, don't you think?


----------



## HeatFan12

Quote: 





abcray said:


> *I have the old NFB-12 *unit and I have noticed an improve in sound after some burn in. I wish I could try different DAC filters and sound signatures. What's the availability for the company to implement a small module that could attach inside the unit that would allow us to choose filters, by jumpers, pins, whatever? It would be worth an upgrade, don't you think?


 


 Sorry, but this is too funny (not your post abcray, just in bold).....The NFB-12 came out like yesterday....lol
   
  Go Quin-hua (King-Wa).......I love your gear sir...


----------



## inter4ever

After some research, I finally ordered the NFB-12 last Saturday. It has been a week and they have yet to ship it. Hopefully, the upgrade in quality from my onboard audio with my D2000 will be worth the wait.


----------



## redc

Quote: 





inter4ever said:


> After some research, I finally ordered the NFB-12 last Saturday. It has been a week and they have yet to ship it. Hopefully, the upgrade in quality from my onboard audio with my D2000 will be worth the wait.


 

 Make sure to put gain on high.


----------



## Jibbie

With the impedance of the Denons, this has to be a joke, yes?
  
  Quote: 





redc said:


> Make sure to put gain on high.


----------



## mrspeakers

Efficiency is the variable to correlate to Gain...


----------



## dadong

I'm just wondering guys. from what i read when i sifted through this topic is that the nfb-12 isn't that great of a match-up with the hd650s. Is that just because of the amp side of things? or is the dac just not well paired for it. 
   
  I'm planning on bypassing the amp section of the nfb-12 all together and hooking it to my LD mkiv. So i'm just wondering if thats a good match up. I want this unit and the price seems like a steal.


----------



## Tilpo

dadong said:


> I'm just wondering guys. from what i read when i sifted through this topic is that the nfb-12 isn't that great of a match-up with the hd650s. Is that just because of the amp side of things? or is the dac just not well paired for it.
> 
> I'm planning on bypassing the amp section of the nfb-12 all together and hooking it to my LD mkiv. So i'm just wondering if thats a good match up. I want this unit and the price seems like a steal.



That's why I do, and it's great. The HD650 sounds good with the LD MKIV in my opinion. 

But if you're only using it as a DAC you might want to do some more research, as there are better alternatives available on the market.
From my new knowledge of electronics I learned that using a fully discrete design is not very smart for headphone amps. Unless your doing high voltage applications op-amps are the way to go. 
Another thing about Audio-GD is that they're pushing out new models at a far too quick rate, sacrificing on a proper development process. Also the designing by ear philosophy might not be the smartest thing ever either: When it comes to amps or DAC's you want them to mess up the signal as little as possible. This can only be ensured by measurements, the human ear simply isn't accurate enough. Additionally designing by ear might also cause extra inaccuracy as some distortion might be perceived as sounding better, while in fact such distortion is a bad thing.

I'm actually thinking of selling my NFB-12 after realizing this. I'll probably buy a cheaper DAC with better measurements first and compare the two.


----------



## Brooko

Well all I can compare is the NFB-12 with my E7/E9 combo (just sold the E7/E9 - so it leaves next week).
   
  The NFB-12 is streets ahead IMO.  First thing I found was that resolution and imaging were far better with the Audio-GD.  Add the extra inputs, ability to apply filters, and the USB24/96 - for $200 USD it really is outstanding value for money.  I don't particularly care about the measurements either.  It sounds amazingly good - and is a real step-up from what I had.  It also pairs really well with both my DT880s and also the MS1i.  I have a feeling I'm also going to like it with the HD600 when it arrives.


----------



## diegoeffio

Anyone here listened to both audio-gd NFB-12 and Audinst mx-1? how would they compare?


----------



## Elanzer

diegoeffio said:


> Anyone here listened to both audio-gd NFB-12 and Audinst mx-1? how would they compare?




On paper NFB-12 is over twice as powerful amp wise, and the DAC section should be better (dual wm8741 vs single wm8740) NFB-12 is also something like 2-3x the audinst MX-1's size however.


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> From my new knowledge of electronics I learned that using a fully discrete design is not very smart for headphone amps. Unless your doing high voltage applications op-amps are the way to go.
> Another thing about Audio-GD is that they're pushing out new models at a far too quick rate, sacrificing on a proper development process. Also the designing by ear philosophy might not be the smartest thing ever either: When it comes to amps or DAC's you want them to mess up the signal as little as possible. This can only be ensured by measurements, the human ear simply isn't accurate enough. Additionally designing by ear might also cause extra inaccuracy as some distortion might be perceived as sounding better, while in fact such distortion is a bad thing.
> 
> I'm actually thinking of selling my NFB-12 after realizing this. I'll probably buy a cheaper DAC with better measurements first and compare the two.


 
   
  Measurements vs. sound is a subject of endless debate, and I don't want to derail the thread, as sound science is better for this topic.  
   
  Regardless, the bottom line is there are crappy op-amp implementations and there are good ones, and the same holds for discrete, so making a statement that op-amps are always better is plain wrong.  
   
  The NFB-12 is a very competent amp for the price, so frankly who ultimately cares if it's discrete or op-amps, anyhow?  I have more expensive op-amp gear, and it does not sound as good. But I don't have a particular bias.  When I design analog I prefer to go discrete, but I have heard good op-amp gear, too.   
   
  Lastly, if you compare something you believe is better to something you believe is worse, you'll bias your results for certain unless you actually do a blind test, so if you go into this with preconceptions it's not likely you'll change your own mind.  My $.02.


----------



## Tilpo

mrspeakers said:


> Measurements vs. sound is a subject of endless debate, and I don't want to derail the thread, as sound science is better for this topic.
> 
> Regardless, the bottom line is there are crappy op-amp implementations and there are good ones, and the same holds for discrete, so making a statement that op-amps are always better is plain wrong.
> 
> ...



You're right. I guess I was may be overestimating it a bit. (don't hit me!)

I looked up RMAA measurements for the NFB-12 and I was positively surprised by the good results.
One interesting thing though, it seems that the frequency response is actually quite bad when run at 44kHz. On the other hand at 96 and up it's seems fine. It seems that with the NFB-12 upsampling is almost essential as a result. 

For anyone interested:
Test at 24/96
Test at 24/192
Comparison between different sampling rates #1
Comparison between different sampling rates #2


----------



## Jibbie

I noticed that the inside of the nfb-12 has different digital filters that can be enabled, and I was just wondering what the effect of these are.  Do they force upsampling in the dac? If my music is nearly all 16/44, we'll these different settings cause the dac to render them as 24/96?
   
  Any clarity on this would be greatly appreciated.
   
  Thank you.


----------



## Tilpo

jibbie said:


> I noticed that the inside of the nfb-12 has different digital filters that can be enabled, and I was just wondering what the effect of these are.  Do they force upsampling in the dac? If my music is nearly all 16/44, we'll these different settings cause the dac to render them as 24/96?
> 
> Any clarity on this would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank you.



No. The upsampling must be done at source, as far as I know. 
I think the actual bad frequency response curve is caused by the fact that the NFB-12 tries to do the upsampling, instead of it being done at source.

If you have a soundcard you can easily enable upsampling in most cases. If you're running foobar2000 you can use the standard upsampling DSP. 

Hope this helps


----------



## Kingwa

The NFB12 have not upsampling, just the oversampling by the WM8741 function.
  From the measure by equipment, the digital filter setting at option 2 and 9 have the best measure result , the option 4 and 6 have the worst measure result.
  The 9 types rssult had clear different show on equipment. Who know why the WM8741 design these best and worst measure result ? I don't think this is a  joke.
  But I don't think all users like the best measure result for listen.
  A cheapest PC soundcard already offer the best measure result than some USD5K gears.


----------



## Brooko

Thanks Kingwa
   
  All I can advise on is my own experience with the NFB-12 - and to me, number 7 (8 x oversampling with the minimum phase apodising filter) sounds really good - HD600 / DT880.
   
  Jibbie - try experimenting & see which one you like.  The ability to alter the overall presentation via the filters is a very good bonus!


----------



## Jibbie

I am the type of person who would spend hours and hours trying to find the perfect setting instead of just listening and enjoying my music, so there are many ways in which this option is a detriment to me haha.  I'll probably end up leaving it stock (without any caps installed) and pretend I can't change it.  Maybe I'll try all of the 192khz options.  
   
  Regardless, I'm very excited to receive my unit.  Haven't heard any word on a ship date yet, but I'm assuming it'll ship sometime this next week (I hope).


----------



## Jibbie

Also, if anyone else wants to share what setting their digital filter is at and why, that'd be awesome.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## Brooko

Reason for the one I listed above was that it seems to be a little brighter and more detailed than the others.  It pairs really well with the HD600.


----------



## redc

Well i'm a bit stumped, for Gain on the NFB-12 does anyone here actually use it(Putting it on H)? 
   
  I've been using it for the past few days with my HD 650, and after some reading apparently it can destroy the headphones, wreck the coils or something along those Lines.
   
  Is this correct? does it wreck the coils and shorten the life of them?


----------



## eclipes

Okay I just tested the 8X linear phase half band filter for backward and compared to 8X minimum phase apodising filter and the apodising filter is brighter and slightly detailed. But it sounds a bit thin and i've been listening to this filter ever since i got the nfb-12. Just tried the Linear phase half band for backward and its a lot fuller, more body in the sound. Pairs quite well with my Grado Sr325i out of Headphone Out. I have it running as dac and connected to my Little Dot I+ and sounds pretty good, very warm and relaxing. Might keep this setting for a while until I try something else.


----------



## captouch

redc said:


> Well i'm a bit stumped, for Gain on the NFB-12 does anyone here actually use it(Putting it on H)?
> 
> I've been using it for the past few days with my HD 650, and after some reading apparently it can destroy the headphones, wreck the coils or something along those Lines.
> 
> Is this correct? does it wreck the coils and shorten the life of them?




I think almost everyone is using it on high. There's general consensus that low takes a lot of the life and PRaT out of the sound and there was speculation high was 0dB and low -12dB. If you haven't listened on high yet, you'll be pleasantly surprised. I haven't heard any reports of damage at high setting - where did you read this? Just take normal precautions.


----------



## Todeon

anyone who can compare nfb-12 to the yulong u100 ? Pretty much in the same price range.


----------



## eclipes

oh my, i've been listening on low gain all this time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> I think almost everyone is using it on high. There's general consensus that low takes a lot of the life and PRaT out of the sound and there was speculation high was 0dB and low -12dB. If you haven't listened on high yet, you'll be pleasantly surprised. I haven't heard any reports of damage at high setting - where did you read this? Just take normal precautions.


----------



## turimbar1

Yes the high gain can destroy your headphones if you have a moving coil headphone (as opposed to an orthodynamic) and you have the volume up too high, this can easily be solved by keeping the volume knob at less than 12oclock (approximately, depends on the efficiency of the headphones).


----------



## ac500

Most high quality headphones should be perfectly find with any volume that a normal healthy human doesn't find deafening, right?
   
  I can certainly imagine blowing out my AD2000s for example. They're almost deafening turned 15% on high gain setting, I can imagine that if you accidentally turned it up all the way bad things would happen.


----------



## turimbar1

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Most high quality headphones should be perfectly find with any volume that a normal healthy human doesn't find deafening, right?
> 
> I can certainly imagine blowing out my AD2000s for example. They're almost deafening turned 15% on high gain setting, I can imagine that if you accidentally turned it up all the way bad things would happen.


 


  absolutely, you WILL know if it is blowing out the headphones, the volume will be beyond what you can enjoy. My orthos sound like real speakers when the volume is all the way up (DO NOT TRY THIS, my driver type can handle it, most headphones cannot)


----------



## RJ Hythloday

I'm making a purchase soon, I just can't decide between getting this dac or the project sunrise tube amp?  I'm thinking if I start w/ the dac I could find a cheap vintage amp to use for the hp out and a set of bookshelfs.  
   
  I'm really wondering what you guys think is the better starting point dac or amp?
   
  This is for my laptop that limits me to the usb out.  I have many sacd rip .isos at 24/96 24/192 etc. tons of flac 16/44.1 and some 24/96 24/192 etc. Largely classical, also classic rock like led zep, grateful dead concerts, hendrix.  HPs are sony mdr-v6(for now)


----------



## mrspeakers

The NFB 12 has enough power to easily blow a moving coil or balanced armature if the volume is at max and the gain is on high and you load up something with any bass at all.  It can put out a whopping 3W for low impedance cans.  High Z cans will be immune, as the power falls off at higher impedances due to voltage-swing limitations.  With about 1.75WPC into 25ohms, a set of IEMs would be smoldering.
   
  The only real risk is not listening level power, it's having the knob get turned up by a kid, a stupid or malicious prankster, the cat, angry-ex, or whatever.


----------



## diegoeffio

Quote: 





todeon said:


> anyone who can compare nfb-12 to the yulong u100 ? Pretty much in the same price range.


 


  wondering the same thing... especially for the usb dac portion!


----------



## tim3320070

I read a thread where someone preferred the $39 HiFiman HM-101 over the Yulong.


----------



## Kevin11

I am quite upset that I made the purchased right before their digital filter upgrade.
  They should make customer aware of the changes.  They know it is coming but still tried to sell old model.
  So I paid the same price for an instant "obsolete" model.
   
  I tried to contact them to find a solution e.g. an add-on model or something like that.
  But not a single word from them.  (They usually reply within an hour.)
   
  So disappointed with their customer support.  So be cautious with their claimed warranty.
  Guess that is the last product I will buy from them.


----------



## tim3320070

Are you this upset when you by a new car only to discover a new model comes out the next year? Ask if you can exchange it, they can only say no.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> I read a thread where someone preferred the $39 HiFiman HM-101 over the Yulong.


 


  Where was this? That's pretty interesting


----------



## RJ Hythloday

>


 

  
   


  Quote: 





rj hythloday said:


> I'm making a purchase soon, I just can't decide between getting this dac or the project sunrise tube amp?  I'm thinking if I start w/ the dac I could find a cheap vintage amp to use for the hp out and a set of bookshelfs.
> 
> I'm really wondering what you guys think is the better starting point dac or amp?
> 
> This is for my laptop that limits me to the usb out.  I have many sacd rip .isos at 24/96 24/192 etc. tons of flac 16/44.1 and some 24/96 24/192 etc. Largely classical, also classic rock like led zep, grateful dead concerts, hendrix.  HPs are sony mdr-v6(for now)


 


  Anyone?  bang for the buck, DAC vs Tube amp for first purchase?


----------



## Kevin11

Frankly I don't think these are comparable.
  For a car purchase, I am aware of the model change well before the sales of new models. Manufacturers provide that information early and clearly.
  In addition, I get great discounts for the model at end of its life cycle.
   
  If I got it even a months before the new model, I have no problem at all. 
  I just don't like it when it is just a few days apart.  They provide a better model for the same price just when I got it?  Do you think it is fair?  
  To me, they just trying to dump the stock of old units.
   
  In addition, when I tried to contact them, there is no single word of reply.   That is not how you treat a customer.
  
  Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Are you this upset when you by a new car only to discover a new model comes out the next year? Ask if you can exchange it, they can only say no.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> In addition, when I tried to contact them, there is no single word of reply.   That is not how you treat a customer.


 


  sometimes they take a couple days to respond, but they always end up responding sooner or later.


----------



## quasio

yeh, I've been burned many a times with model upgrades..
   
  If it makes you feel any better, i can't hear a lick of difference between the 9 different flavours..  but that said i'm only using a HD555.. 
  Ive got the NFB-5 and i can switch between them instantly..
   
  I think the difference is super small that you could hear if you had hifi headphones.


----------



## eclipes

im hearing the difference, at least with the 8x minimum phase apodising vs. 8x linear phase half band filter for backward
  
  Quote: 





quasio said:


> yeh, I've been burned many a times with model upgrades..
> 
> If it makes you feel any better, i can't hear a lick of difference between the 9 different flavours..  but that said i'm only using a HD555..
> Ive got the NFB-5 and i can switch between them instantly..
> ...


----------



## Elanzer

You CAN adjust the filters on the old NFB-12 model, it requires lifting pins off the PCB for the WM8741chips. It's not even remotely as convenient, especially if you can't precisely solder it back on to try other settings. Before the new model was available with the filter adjustments, people were doing this to adjust filters.


----------



## EraserXIV

What is the default setting for the "old" NFB-12 in terms of the new jumper settings?


----------



## redc

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I think almost everyone is using it on high. There's general consensus that low takes a lot of the life and PRaT out of the sound and there was speculation high was 0dB and low -12dB. If you haven't listened on high yet, you'll be pleasantly surprised. I haven't heard any reports of damage at high setting - where did you read this? Just take normal precautions.


 
   
  Have noticed when it's on low it sounds pretty boring and very flat, But ill continue to leave it on high and hope nothing happens.
   
  Cheers!


----------



## eclipes

yeah same, now i have it on high gain, sounds better but I can barely adjust the volume on my tube amp since its so loud already. The volume is at around 8oclock right now and can barely handle it.... Are you guys using it as preamp or just dedicated dac?
  
  Quote: 





redc said:


> Have noticed when it's on low it sounds pretty boring and very flat, But ill continue to leave it on high and hope nothing happens.
> 
> Cheers!


----------



## captouch

eclipes said:


> yeah same, now i have it on high gain, sounds better but I can barely adjust the volume on my tube amp since its so loud already. The volume is at around 8oclock right now and can barely handle it.... Are you guys using it as preamp or just dedicated dac?




I'm using it into a Hifiman EF5 driving DT880/600's and I'm normally around 10-12 o'clock volume wise, so High setting is working out well for me in terms of where I am on the volume dial. This is using the fixed output setting.

Why don't you leave it on High but use variable output and adjust down the volume going into your tube amp using the NFB-12 volume dial?


----------



## Elanzer

eclipes said:


> yeah same, now i have it on high gain, sounds better but I can barely adjust the volume on my tube amp since its so loud already. The volume is at around 8oclock right now and can barely handle it.... Are you guys using it as preamp or just dedicated dac?




When I'm using it as a DAC, I use high fixed output (12 o'clock) going to my tube amp, and use the tube amp at about 10'o clock with it also set to it's highest gain setting, when I'm using it's HP amp I still leave the gain on high and use about 10 o'clock.

But this is using 600-Ohm T1. The only way you're going to damage your headphones is by making them too loud and blowing them, much like turning up speakers too loud, etc. If it's set to high gain but lower volume, it doesn't hurt anything at all, since gain is just effectively volume.


----------



## Syrk

I just got a pair of dt880/600 being driven by an audio-gd nfb-12 both new. I get distortion past 1 o clock, is that normal?
  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> I'm using it into a Hifiman EF5 driving DT880/600's and I'm normally around 10-12 o'clock volume wise, so High setting is working out well for me in terms of where I am on the volume dial. This is using the fixed output setting.
> 
> Why don't you leave it on High but use variable output and adjust down the volume going into your tube amp using the NFB-12 volume dial?


----------



## Jibbie

Just heard from Audio GD that my unit has shipped, however, a tracking number won't be made available until later.  Anyone know the average time it'll take to get a tracking number?  I'm anxious


----------



## redc

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Just heard from Audio GD that my unit has shipped, however, a tracking number won't be made available until later.  Anyone know the average time it'll take to get a tracking number?  I'm anxious


 


  1-2days


----------



## Jibbie

Thank you
  
  Quote: 





redc said:


> 1-2days


----------



## tme110

There's probably 500 posts on this forum with people complaining that AGD updates their equipment too frequently so it shouldn't be much of a surprise.  He also just released a new nfb-10 that costs half of the older version that I recently got - now that was a surprise.
  
  Quote: 





kevin11 said:


> Frankly I don't think these are comparable.
> For a car purchase, I am aware of the model change well before the sales of new models. Manufacturers provide that information early and clearly.
> In addition, I get great discounts for the model at end of its life cycle.
> 
> ...


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> There's probably 500 posts on this forum with people complaining that AGD updates their equipment too frequently so it shouldn't be much of a surprise.  He also just released a new nfb-10 that costs half of the older version that I recently got - now that was a surprise.


 
  Not exactly half ($500 promo vs $780), but I can see why you're upset. Your case is much nicer than the SE though, if that matters to you.


----------



## dirkpitt45

I received my NFB-12 a few weeks ago and so far I really like it with my HD600s. Not as warm or textured as my bottlehead crack + fubar II, but it's a nice change. Bass is more impactful and highs seem a bit more forward. 
   
  Having a few technical issues with it though. It doesn't seem to like m desktop, and I can't figure out why. Seemingly randomly it just stops playing sound, and won't start again until I switch it to another USB port. I'm pretty sure it's a driver issue, since the graphics in Fubar2k kinda glitch out and stop moving. My Firestone Fubar II does this occasionally as well, but after googling it's just a fairly common issue related to poor grounding. But it doesn't happen nearly as frequently as the NFB-12. 
   
  I can go a couple days and not have one problem, but then every now and then it just refuses to work; like this morning. I've never had a problem using it with my laptop, but I haven't really used it for more than an hour or two so that's not conclusive. I don't leave the NFB-12 on all day, longest it's been on is probably 6 hours.
   
  Any ideas? I haven't tried WASAPI or the other audio .dlls since I spend a fair bit of time playing games and I've read about people having issues with some games and alternative playback styles.


----------



## tme110

can you skip the usb and just use coax?


----------



## eclipes

Hey captouch, yeah im trying to adjust down the volume going into the tube amp, but shouldn't it be at the highest around 3oclock and then adjust from the tube amp. I've always thought that the dac/preamp section should the highest volume going into the dedicated tube amp. So i am not sure at all. Someone please correct me.
  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> I'm using it into a Hifiman EF5 driving DT880/600's and I'm normally around 10-12 o'clock volume wise, so High setting is working out well for me in terms of where I am on the volume dial. This is using the fixed output setting.
> 
> Why don't you leave it on High but use variable output and adjust down the volume going into your tube amp using the NFB-12 volume dial?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> Hey captouch, yeah im trying to adjust down the volume going into the tube amp, but shouldn't it be at the highest around 3oclock and then adjust from the tube amp. I've always thought that the dac/preamp section should the highest volume going into the dedicated tube amp. So i am not sure at all. Someone please correct me.


 

 AFAIK, I don't think it matters, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
   
  Anyway, if you calibrate to the same dB level in LOW gain (so higher volume dial setting) as on HIGH gain (so lower volume dial setting), I think the HIGH gain setting will still sound better, even though the volume dial is physically lower.  Don't know if that makes sense, but what I'm trying to say is that LOW gain switch seems to just flatten out the sound and make it less dynamic, regardless of sound/volume level.


----------



## eclipes

okay, sounds good, ill keep my current settings right now. But the more I listen and compare back and forth, low gain does sound a bit flat and lifeless  even when I turn up the volume. thanks a lot for the heads up, sounds much better now.
  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> AFAIK, I don't think it matters, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Anyway, if you calibrate to the same dB level in LOW gain (so higher volume dial setting) as on HIGH gain (so lower volume dial setting), I think the HIGH gain setting will still sound better, even though the volume dial is physically lower.  Don't know if that makes sense, but what I'm trying to say is that LOW gain switch seems to just flatten out the sound and make it less dynamic, regardless of sound/volume level.


----------



## Jibbie

Is high gain too much for low impedance cans?  I'd want to use it if indeed it does sound better, however, I don't want to have the volume turned up 10% and have it get too loud.  The further down on the volume pot the more chance for channel imbalance and the such, and I've always thought that the lowest gain setting that will still give you adequate drive is the setting you should use.


----------



## eclipes

that is what i thought too, im using it with grados so you can understand how low the volume pot is. However no channel imbalance has occurred or that I could hear of, but overall high gain does sound with more life in the music. Low gain just sounds flat and dry.
  
  Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Is high gain too much for low impedance cans?  I'd want to use it if indeed it does sound better, however, I don't want to have the volume turned up 10% and have it get too loud.  The further down on the volume pot the more chance for channel imbalance and the such, and I've always thought that the lowest gain setting that will still give you adequate drive is the setting you should use.


----------



## Elanzer

jibbie said:


> Is high gain too much for low impedance cans?  I'd want to use it if indeed it does sound better, however, I don't want to have the volume turned up 10% and have it get too loud.  The further down on the volume pot the more chance for channel imbalance and the such, and I've always thought that the lowest gain setting that will still give you adequate drive is the setting you should use.




Depends on how sensitive/low impedance we're talking about. I still use high gain with reasonable volume levels on ATH-M50 and RE0, which are 32 and 64 ohm respectively. Maybe some sensitive 16-ohm IEMs - yeah, it could be a bit too much.

On a side note on my T1 with low gain set, with volume maxed it's actually quieter than high gain at 10 o'clock, and isn't loud enough sometimes.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> What is the default setting for the "old" NFB-12 in terms of the new jumper settings?


 


  anyone have info on this?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> anyone have info on this?


 
   
  Somewhere around page 31/32 of this thread, they talk about the default setting.  Madwolf measured the voltages on the DACs and reported: "Pin 4 is 0 volts, Pin 22 is 3.5V and Pin 24 (Hardware/software) is at 0 volts"
   
  If you look at the WM8741 datasheet and follow all the tables and lookups, this corresponds to 2x "Linear Phase Soft-Knee" filter.
   
  But when I opened mine up (I was one of the first to get the settable digital filter units), mine appeared to be set to 2x "Liner Phase Brickwall" filter, unless I was looking at it the wrong way.  It'd be interesting to know what other people's default setting was that have the new units.  
   
  Mine is set at 8x Minimum Phase Apodising, but I may try Linear Phase Half-Band filter since someone just recently said it sounded better than the Minimum Phase Apodising. . .


----------



## eclipes

mine came stock in the Brickwall Filter as well.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> mine came stock in the Brickwall Filter as well.


 

 Ah, it was you that said the Linear Phase Half-Band sounds better than the Min Phase Apodising. . .I'm about to make the change and try it  now.


----------



## Jibbie

I look forward to your conclusions between the two settings.  I'll probably just leave mine at stock, but if I toy around, it'd be nice to know what some of the better settings might be.


----------



## redc

To the people having Trouble with there DT990's are you still having problems with it when you turn the volume up?
   
  I'm thinking about buying the DT990 600 Ohms to replace my Sennheiser hd 650, and if there is a problem with the amp(Not having enough power or what ever) What would you guys suggest i buy for them?


----------



## captouch

OK, here are some listening impressions with 5 different digital filter settings.  Everything below is based on my own listening preferences, with this particular setup.  When I note one filter is "better" or graded higher than another, it's not meant as an absolute grade that should apply to everyone's situation.  
   
*Setup:*
  Headphones: Beyerdynamic DT880/600
  Amp: Hifiman EF5 (low gain setting, stock Fullmusic tube, AD797AR opamp in place of stock OP275)
  CD player: Sony DVP-NC685V optical out into NFB-12
  NFB-12: High gain setting, fixed output to EF5
  Music: Beatles "Love": Track #1 (Because), #9 (Something), #24 (Hey Jude)
             Miles Davis "Kind of Blue": Track#2 (Freddy Freeloader), #6 (Flamenco Sketches Alternate Take)
   
  In comparing filter settings, I wanted to compare certain attributes of the selected songs - things/segments where I found something distinct enough that I could identify/compare with some confidence.  In particular:
  Because: Texture, distinct vs blended nature of the three voices harmonizing
  Something: Texture/detail/emotion of vocal, ability to discern details in bass line
  Hey Jude: Vocal characteristics, sharpness/shrillness of tambourine
  Freddy Freeloader: General sound/characteristics of opening horns segment, amount of hiss
  Flamenco Sketches: Bass and cymbal characteristics in beginning of song
   
  Here are my observations:
   
*2x Linear Phase Soft Knee *(which I believe is the default of the units that don't have changeable filters) and *2x Linear Phase Brickwall* (default setting of later units that do have changeable filters) both were fairly similar.  There was some texture and detail to the voices, but where there were multiple horns/voices (Freddy/Because), there was noticeable blending, leading to some loss of detail/distinctness.  I thought the Brickwall was a shade more refined.  Overall, I'd give the Soft Knee a "B" grade, and Brickwall a "B/B+".
   
*8x Linear Phase Apodising:* This seemed a shade more textured/detailed and refined compared to the 2x Brickwall.  Still noticeable blending, but preserved a bit more texture/detail.  Overall preferable and nicer balance than 2x oversampling options tested above.  I'd give it a "B+/A-" rating.
   
*8x Linear Phase Half-Band:* I actually liked this one the least of the five I tested this evening.  It seemed to tame everything too much for my taste. Hiss seemed a bit less, but cymbals, hi-hats, etc seemed less vivid/distinct.  In Because, the three voices almost seemed like a single voice (individual voices were not at all easily distinguishable), and in Something, the vocal seemed stripped of emotion and the result was generally what I'd associate with a lower-fi recording or very average headphones.  It did make some of the shriller aspects of Hey Jude less so, but this was the only song where I might prefer this setting.  Overall, a "B-".
   
*8x Minimum Phase Apodising*: Definitely the best for my taste.  The amount of detail was significantly higher, I could pick out distinct and separate vocals in Because, the vocals in Something were "sweeter" and more conveying of emotion (not something I would have even thought of using as descriptors with other settings, but this one brought out quite a bit extra from this song), and horns in Freddy also detailed and distinct.  Drums, bass lines, cymbals, hi-hats, all very discernable and realistic sounding.  The dynamics and PRaT just seemed great and noticeably better with this setting.  This ones gets a solid "A" grade.
   
  The DT880 is known as a detailed and balanced headphone, which is one of the reasons I chose it.  I can hear (and enjoy) the full level of detail and dynamics with the 8x Min Phase Apodising filter.  The 8x Linear Phase Apodising is also a decent choice for a more relaxed listen.  The others make me feel like I'm not getting the full potential out of the 880's and that I might as well be using cheaper headphones. I felt the same way listening to the headphone out of the NFB-12, even with my preferred 8x Min Phase Apodising.  Based on recent comments that more than one person seemed to be getting distortion at higher volume levels with these phones, I'm wondering if the NFB-12 is just not capable of properly driving these headphones - making the filters sound more similar to each other.  But there's a big difference using my EF5.  
   
  I'll be putting together a Bottlehead Crack within the next few weeks and will test some of the filter settings again with that amp.  It'll be interesting to hear the differences (and degree of difference) on another amp (one I've heard might actually be better suited to the DT880/600's than my EF5).
   
  I'm interested in hearing comparisons from others as well.


----------



## Brooko

Captouch - totally agree.  The level of detail using the 8 x Upsampling Minimum Phase Apodising filter rises quite dramatically and is the best I've used so far.  I need to play with all of them a little more when I get time this weekend.
   
  The 8xU MPA definitely sounds best to me with both my DT880s and HD600s.  Not quite so sure with the MS1is - but I tend to use them more with my PortaTube anyway.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote: 





redc said:


> To the people having Trouble with there DT990's are you still having problems with it when you turn the volume up?
> 
> I'm thinking about buying the DT990 600 Ohms to replace my Sennheiser hd 650, and if there is a problem with the amp(Not having enough power or what ever) What would you guys suggest i buy for them?


 

 Unless you've heard the DT990 and are sure you prefer them to the HD650, don't sell the HD650 yet. Very different headphones- DT is much brighter with much less midrange. Sorry about off topic.


----------



## Sparky14

Quote: 





redc said:


> To the people having Trouble with there DT990's are you still having problems with it when you turn the volume up?
> 
> I'm thinking about buying the DT990 600 Ohms to replace my Sennheiser hd 650, and if there is a problem with the amp(Not having enough power or what ever) What would you guys suggest i buy for them?


 


 I've got my NFB-11 at full volume with DT990/600s right now, and I do not hear any problems at all. Now, I usually listen at 50% on the dial, and going to 100% makes it loud, but not painfully loud. So if you are looking for ear splitting volume, you may not get it with this combo. For me, it is plenty.
   
  And I also replaced the HD650 with the DT990s. I think the DT990s do rock better, which is mostly what I listen to.


----------



## eclipes

hey Captouch,
   
  Great review, i am actually back to using 8x minimum phase apodising since its the best one that fits my music. You are right about the linear phase half band, it is suitable for specific songs and could sound quite nice but on average I think its just too warm to the point its muddy making my sr325i sound really dark. I am still loving the minimum apodising filter going into my tube amp, balances everything out.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> hey Captouch,
> 
> Great review, i am actually back to using 8x minimum phase apodising since its the best one that fits my music. You are right about the linear phase half band, it is suitable for specific songs and could sound quite nice but on average I think its just too warm to the point its muddy making my sr325i sound really dark. I am still loving the minimum apodising filter going into my tube amp, balances everything out.


 

 Yeah, I'm wondering now whether the 2x minimum phase soft-knee is any more detailed than the two 2x linear phase filters I tried.  I'm not clear whether it's the 8x oversampling that's bringing out the detail, or the "minimum phase" aspect.  Or neither, lol, I'm just speculating based on the filter names.
   
  I'm an engineer by background, but those graphs on Audio GD's website for each filter mean less than zero to me.  Don't know how to interpret the x-axis or y-axis.


----------



## ac500

Would the NFB-12 be able to damage an HD 650 I wonder? For example if I boost the bass really high and turn the volume up a lot (because otherwise everything else is recessed), should I be careful not to damage my HD 650?
  
  Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> The NFB 12 has enough power to easily blow a moving coil or balanced armature if the volume is at max and the gain is on high and you load up something with any bass at all.  It can put out a whopping 3W for low impedance cans.  High Z cans will be immune, as the power falls off at higher impedances due to voltage-swing limitations.  With about 1.75WPC into 25ohms, a set of IEMs would be smoldering.
> 
> The only real risk is not listening level power, it's having the knob get turned up by a kid, a stupid or malicious prankster, the cat, angry-ex, or whatever.


----------



## redc

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Would the NFB-12 be able to damage an HD 650 I wonder? For example if I boost the bass really high and turn the volume up a lot (because otherwise everything else is recessed), should I be careful not to damage my HD 650?


 

  
  I'm using gain and i use very loud volumes(Obnoxious Volumes), and nothing has happened so far (About 2weeks in), and i highly doubt anything will seeing they are 300.0 ohms.


----------



## inter4ever

Came back home to find a missed delivery note from DHL  And to make things worse, the next attempt will be on Monday. I still haven't received the tracking nubmer so I couldn't know they would attempt delivert today. Anyway, Can't wait for Monday to arrive!


----------



## Jibbie

I emailed Audio GD to receive my tracking number.  It just left Hong Kong.  Hopefully it doesn't take too long to cross the ocean.


----------



## Chronos

How about in to a set of Denon Ah-D7000's, could this possibly damage them?


----------



## captouch

chronos said:


> How about in to a set of Denon Ah-D7000's, could this possibly damage them?




I've used both TripleFi 10's (32ohms) and ER-4P's (27ohms) and I would listen to them at 8:00-8:30 o'clock on the volume knob at High gain and 9:00-10:00 o'clock on Low gain.

It seems to me it's possible to blow them if I turned volume all the way up. If I used my 600ohm Beyers and then switched to the IEM's without turning the knob down first, not sure. But as long as you're careful, I don't see a real danger.


----------



## tim3320070

It's more about distortion than volume that kills drivers, don't worry about it.


----------



## tme110

If you're worried about damaging headphones, I 'd be more worried about damaging hearing


----------



## tim3320070

That too


----------



## mrspeakers

Any amp with more power than a phone is rated for can blow it up.  If you have questions about your phones, look at their power rating and impedance and check the output power rating at that impedance on the audio-gd site.  And doing play your phones to the point your amp or your ears are distorting because that sucks either way.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  If further discussion of "which will I wreck first, my phones or my ears?"is needed, let's start a thread on Sound Science.


----------



## ac500

Well obviously your ears would be wrecked first in normal cases . The only thing I'd worry about would be for example EQ'ing the bass up almost completely so that you have to turn the volume knob way up (because EQing the bass up makes everything else quieter of course, at a given volume).


----------



## Jibbie

Just got mine.  Bigger than I thought it would be, and it looks much nicer too.  Sounds great so far.  Just an ever so slight layer of refinement over the single WM8740 in my Ibasso D4.  I don't notice a difference between high and low gain really.   And I have yet to mess with digital filters.  I was walking out my door to go to class when the courier arrived.  Needless to say, I skipped class


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Needless to say, I skipped class


 


  hehe
  enjoy it.


----------



## Tilpo

jibbie said:


> I was walking out my door to got to class when the courier arrived.  Needless to say, I skipped class



Hehe, reminds me of when my HD650 arrived. 
I went home to pick up my gym clothes for PE, when I came home my HD650 was sitting pretty in a box on the table. 
It was the only PE class I ever missed in my life. Pretty much the only class in general I ever skipped. 



jibbie said:


> Just got mine. Bigger than I thought it would be, and it looks much nicer too. Sounds great so far. Just an ever so slight layer of refinement over the single WM8740 in my Ibasso D4. I don't notice a difference between high and low gain really. And I have yet to mess with digital filters.



I was surprised by its looks too. On pictures it wasn't that good looking, but as an audiophile I still put sound quality as primary concern. 
Don't notice difference between low and high gain either, I just use high for convenience. I.e. high gain is easier when witching to my turntable since the volume is about the same on high gain. 
In general I don't think there's a too large difference in DAC's, unless they color the sound. The NFB-12 is quite neutral, and distortion is below audible threshold so I might be done for the rest of my life when it comes to DAC's. (although a DIY one such as the gamma1 seems like a lot of fun to build)


----------



## ac500

_> The NFB-12 is quite neutral_
   
  Doesn't it have a slight dark coloration / treble reduction according to Audio-gd?


----------



## Jibbie

Now that I've listened to it some more, I can definitely hear a few differences between the NFB-12 and my Ibasso D4 > Matrx M Stage.  The NFB-12 is a bit more revealing and the resolution is much higher.  Metal sounds much much clearer, which helps reduce the wall of sound a lot of metal struggles with.  Vocals sound smoother.  I haven't noticed any roll off in the highs, but I think the M-Stage did this to some extent as well so maybe they're equal in that regard.  Soundstage might be a touch smaller, but instrument separation is better and imaging is more specific so I'm okay with that.
   
  Most importantly, I now have an amp and dac in one unit.  Its much cleaner, saves space, and if pure specs mean anything, is actually superior to my older setup.  I'm really liking the sound as well.  I can't wait for my D5000 to come in.  I have to mail this D2000 back to MalVeauX today (I don't have to, but I said I would so I will), so I'll be without headphones, as my Pro 900 is up for sale and is awaiting a new home.


----------



## Tilpo

ac500 said:


> _> The NFB-12 is quite neutral_
> 
> Doesn't it have a slight dark coloration / treble reduction according to Audio-gd?



This graph says it doesn't. And as a scientist I think graphs say more than marketing jumble. 


What this graph basically shows is that there is a cutoff in the treble, it's just not loud enough to be audible within audible frequencies (20Hz -20kHz)
Might not be perfectly flat, but flat enough to sound flat.



> From 20 Hz to 20 kHz, dB
> -0.69, +0.04
> 
> From 40 Hz to 15 kHz, dB
> -0.37, +0.04


----------



## tim3320070

This has been said many times here but when Kingwa says it's "warm", he means in relation to his other neutral gear. He doesn't make anything (that I have owned) that has coloration or boosting/cutting of frequencies of significance.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> _> The NFB-12 is quite neutral_
> 
> Doesn't it have a slight dark coloration / treble reduction according to Audio-gd?


 

 That can be changed quite a bit by altering the filters.  For me, 8 x Upsampling Minimum Phase Apodising brings quite a bit of the high end back, and lightens the sound - it remains warm, but more warm and sweet, rather than warm and dark.


----------



## satwilson

Thanks MrSpeakers for delivering some sanity to this off topic misunderstanding of of headroom, rated power, that some of these folks don't understand. Lets go forward with discussions of how the plethora of filter settings makes us happy or not. I have used the default 192/brickwall, 8xapodising, and am currently playing with the 96/24 options. Bottom line, any high current/power amp can destroy your headphones if you turn it up too much/past clipping/etc, on the other hand having plenty of power and headroom before clipping is nirvana, just don't abuse it.


----------



## satwilson

Sorry forgot to include quote, see reply above
  
  Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> Any amp with more power than a phone is rated for can blow it up.  If you have questions about your phones, look at their power rating and impedance and check the output power rating at that impedance on the audio-gd site.  And doing play your phones to the point your amp or your ears are distorting because that sucks either way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Chronos

So how is the sound signature of the NFB12 vs D4 through the denons?  which one sounds better through it?  Is there a substantial difference you can hear immediately?
  
  Quote: 





jibbie said:


> Now that I've listened to it some more, I can definitely hear a few differences between the NFB-12 and my Ibasso D4 > Matrx M Stage.  The NFB-12 is a bit more revealing and the resolution is much higher.  Metal sounds much much clearer, which helps reduce the wall of sound a lot of metal struggles with.  Vocals sound smoother.  I haven't noticed any roll off in the highs, but I think the M-Stage did this to some extent as well so maybe they're equal in that regard.  Soundstage might be a touch smaller, but instrument separation is better and imaging is more specific so I'm okay with that.
> 
> Most importantly, I now have an amp and dac in one unit.  Its much cleaner, saves space, and if pure specs mean anything, is actually superior to my older setup.  I'm really liking the sound as well.  I can't wait for my D5000 to come in.  I have to mail this D2000 back to MalVeauX today (I don't have to, but I said I would so I will), so I'll be without headphones, as my Pro 900 is up for sale and is awaiting a new home.


----------



## mrspeakers

I've had a little fun playing with filters, but haven't been ubber-scientific about it...  
   
  The first thing is that I upsample most of my music to 88.2 or 96, and am feeding the NFB-12 via SPDIF.  As a result, I have fewer settings to mess with (for the moment).  
   
  I've only played with the three 4x modes that can handle 96.  The brick wall was my least favorite, sounding slightly etched in the high frequencies.  The minimum phase sounded ok, but the linear phase really made me prick up my ears.  At first listen, and this is a quick impression which familiarity may modify, but it seemed to simply have a slightly more lifelike presentation...
   
  I'll note more when I've given it better listening time.


----------



## movi

hey so what kind of benefits in the sound should i be looking for when upsampling 44 to 96?


----------



## Tilpo

movi said:


> hey so what kind of benefits in the sound should i be looking for when upsampling 44 to 96?


 Better treble extension.
Other than that I don't think the differences will be that large if audible at all.


----------



## Stinky Fart

supercurio said:


> Hi again!
> 
> I ran new analysis with improved settings and setup (more adequate gains, only 1 computer to avoid noise sources, better cables)
> 
> ...




I seriously don't understand one bit of these resampling. All I know is that most of my FLACS are 16/44.1
So since NBF-12 supports 24/96, will my FLACS be automatically upsampled by foobar? How do I avoid this? Since I've heard that upsampling will cause degradation of SQ


----------



## movi

what? i thought it was supposed to be beneficial?

your NFB-12 has inputs that accept up to 24/192. that doesn't mean it resamples everything. if you haven't configured foobar to upsample its output, don't worry it's just outputting 16/44.1 to your NFB-12.


----------



## Stinky Fart

oh, great! But upsampling is good? Cause I've read that converting a lets say 192kbps mp3 to 320 would actually ruin the sound quality even more. Also, according to this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/464376/head-fi/mav_condensed/usb_driver/oldpost.html it says it is not bit perfect which I assume messes with the SQ


----------



## Tilpo

stinky fart said:


> oh, great! But upsampling is good? Cause I've read that converting a lets say 192kbps mp3 to 320 would actually ruin the sound quality even more. Also, according to this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/464376/head-fi/mav_condensed/usb_driver/oldpost.html it says it is not bit perfect which I assume messes with the SQ



Upsampling 16/44 to 24/96 or 24/192 is a good thing. It doesn't reduce the quality, and if it does then it's far from audible.

Transcoding 192kbps to 320kbps is a bad thing. This is because transcoding a lossy format always reduces quality. MP3 is lossy, stuff such as FLAC is lossless, in which case transcoding does not change the audio quality in any way whatsoever. Lossy codecs such as MP3 throw away some of the audio information that is present on lossless files such as FLAC to save more space. With every transcodation they throw away a bit more information, that's why transcoding lossy formats is always bad.

Upsampling is fundamentally different from transcoding. Transcoding involves changing from one way of encoding (i.e. compressing) the audio. Upsampling on the other hand just changes the detail by which the information is stored. No information is thrown away, but rather information is added. This added information is basically just describing audio signal, but by using more words. 
For some reason DAC's such as the NFB-12 respond better to upsampled signals. Therefore there is no real reason not to upsample the signal, since it's only gonna improve the sound quality at the end of the chain. 

With foobar2000 adding upsampling to the output is as simple as adding the standard resampler DSP. 
File -> Preferences -> Playback -> DSP Manager
Then add 'Resampler (PPHS)'. Select it and click 'Configure selected' after adding. 
Type in either 96000Hz or 192000Hz depending on whether you use USB or SPDIF. USB can only support up to 24/96, SPDIF can do 24/192 as well.

You then might have to enable 24/96 or 24/192 in Windows for the NFB-12. 
Control Panel -> Sound. Then double-click the audio device corresponding to the NFB-12. For me the standard name was 'TE7022 Audio w/ SPDIF'.
Then hit 'Supported Formats' and check all the boxes for sample rate.
Then go to 'Advanced' and select '2 channel, 24 bit, 192000 Hz (Studio Quality)' or whatever sample rate you want to use. 

Now it should work. You might not hear any differences, but theoretically they should be there. But hey, aren't most of us audiophiles acting on placebos and biased listening in at least some way?


----------



## Jibbie

If we upsample using Foobar, say to 192khz, does the NFB-12 need to be on a setting where it oversamples to 192khz to play it?  Or in other words, my NFB-12 is on its stock setting, digital filter number 4 (no black caps added).  This is the 4x oversampling, minimum phase soft knee filter and it says it only supports up to 96khz, so if I upsample Foobar to 192khz, it won't work will it? I'd need to change the digital filter so it accepts 192, is this correct?


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





stinky fart said:


> oh, great! But upsampling is good? Cause I've read that converting a lets say 192kbps mp3 to 320 would actually ruin the sound quality even more. Also, according to this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/464376/head-fi/mav_condensed/usb_driver/oldpost.html it says it is not bit perfect which I assume messes with the SQ


 

 Don't confuse sample rate conversion with compression level conversion.  
   
  When we talk about up sampling or oversampling, these are ways to take content with a 44.1KHz sample rate and "resample it" to make it look like the data was captured at a higher sample rate of 96, 192 etc.  This allows the digital filter cutoff frequency to be implemented so far above the top audio frequencies that it ensures you will avoid aliasing (I'll cheat and simply call this a bad form of "distortion). You see in the RMAA up sampled to 96/96 chart above that aliasing is gone, whereas it is clearly visible in the 44 sampled at 96 (you can see it as the fading mirror image above the curves).   This lets you use digital filters that have way less effect on the signal, and also eliminates the need for analog "brick wall" filters at 20KHz, which also improves performance.  
   
  Compression level is totally different than sample rate.  Pretty much all 192, 256 or 320 content is SAMPLED at 44.1KHz.  What the 192kbps is is essentially how much data per second is left after the file has been compacted using LOSSY compression.  Since all these formats are lossy, if you take a low quality 128 or 192 and "recompress it" at 320, you're actually going to lose more of the audio signal and degrade the sound further, as every pass through a lossy compression algorithm will by definition throw out some data.  
   
  I use Pure Music and upsample all my 44.1KHz content, whether it's 256kbps or fully lossless, to 88.2KHz.  This


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





jibbie said:


> If we upsample using Foobar, say to 192khz, does the NFB-12 need to be on a setting where it oversamples to 192khz to play it?  Or in other words, my NFB-12 is on its stock setting, digital filter number 4 (no black caps added).  This is the 4x oversampling, minimum phase soft knee filter and it says it only supports up to 96khz, so if I upsample Foobar to 192khz, it won't work will it? I'd need to change the digital filter so it accepts 192, is this correct?


 


  I think you can verify by experimenting.  Certainly the max for oversampling will be at 96K as you describe, but I'm not sure if the DAC will lock to a 192 signal and just not upsample it.  You can tell by setting to 96K with 4x up sampling and sending a 192 signal.  If it locks at 192, it's playing it back without up sampling at the DAC, which will be fine.  
   
  My $.02 is 96KHz generally works better than 192.  I don't know about the 8741 specifically, but many DACs are more linear at 96KHz.  88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192 all serve the good purpose of getting the digital filter's cutoff way above the actual analog signals max frequencies, which is a good thing, so I also wouldn't worry if the DAC can't upsample the up sampled signal further.


----------



## tim3320070

Plus you most likely cannot hear the difference between 192 and 96 (or 44.1 for that matter). It's very subtle with my full-on system let alone the NFB-12.


----------



## Stinky Fart

tilpo said:


> Upsampling 16/44 to 24/96 or 24/192 is a good thing. It doesn't reduce the quality, and if it does then it's far from audible.
> Transcoding 192kbps to 320kbps is a bad thing. This is because transcoding a lossy format always reduces quality. MP3 is lossy, stuff such as FLAC is lossless, in which case transcoding does not change the audio quality in any way whatsoever. Lossy codecs such as MP3 throw away some of the audio information that is present on lossless files such as FLAC to save more space. With every transcodation they throw away a bit more information, that's why transcoding lossy formats is always bad.
> Upsampling is fundamentally different from transcoding. Transcoding involves changing from one way of encoding (i.e. compressing) the audio. Upsampling on the other hand just changes the detail by which the information is stored. No information is thrown away, but rather information is added. This added information is basically just describing audio signal, but by using more words.
> For some reason DAC's such as the NFB-12 respond better to upsampled signals. Therefore there is no real reason not to upsample the signal, since it's only gonna improve the sound quality at the end of the chain.
> ...






mrspeakers said:


> Don't confuse sample rate conversion with compression level conversion.
> 
> When we talk about up sampling or oversampling, these are ways to take content with a 44.1KHz sample rate and "resample it" to make it look like the data was captured at a higher sample rate of 96, 192 etc.  This allows the digital filter cutoff frequency to be implemented so far above the top audio frequencies that it ensures you will avoid aliasing (I'll cheat and simply call this a bad form of "distortion). You see in the RMAA up sampled to 96/96 chart above that aliasing is gone, whereas it is clearly visible in the 44 sampled at 96 (you can see it as the fading mirror image above the curves).   This lets you use digital filters that have way less effect on the signal, and also eliminates the need for analog "brick wall" filters at 20KHz, which also improves performance.
> 
> ...




Thanks guys, that helped a lot! I'm new to these FLAC stuff, don't even have an audiophile level headphones yet. But you know what they say, upgrade your source before upgrading headphones


----------



## Tilpo

stinky fart said:


> Thanks guys, that helped a lot! I'm new to these FLAC stuff, don't even have an audiophile level headphones yet. But you know what they say, upgrade your source before upgrading headphones



Well I don't know about that. An LCD-2 driven from a front port will still sound better than iBuds driven from a Leben CS-300x. (The LCD-2 might be incredibly soft, though)
After the recording itself, headphones/speakers are always the most important component in the chain. Source and amplification are only there to compliment the headphones.


----------



## Stinky Fart

tilpo said:


> Well I don't know about that. An LCD-2 driven from a front port will still sound better than iBuds driven from a Leben CS-300x. (The LCD-2 might be incredibly soft, though)
> After the recording itself, headphones/speakers are always the most important component in the chain. Source and amplification are only there to compliment the headphones.




I get what you mean. Anyway, I'm set on my dac/amp already but am still searching for the "perfect" headphones


----------



## movi

haha. sorry about your wallet


----------



## leylandi

http://www.headfonia.com/no-music-audio-gd-nfb-12/


----------



## Stinky Fart

Quote: 





leylandi said:


> http://www.headfonia.com/no-music-audio-gd-nfb-12/


 


  yeap, just read it. Now I don't wanna buy this anymore


----------



## captouch

Just posted some suggestions for Mike to try. The wrong digital filter setting can give a bad impression, as can Low gain setting. Hopefully he can try a new setting and post impressions. I wonder if it's burned in too.


----------



## Stinky Fart

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Just posted some suggestions for Mike to try. The wrong digital filter setting can give a bad impression, as can Low gain setting. Hopefully he can try a new setting and post impressions. I wonder if it's burned in too.


 


  Was just looking at that before coming here ahaha. From the looks of it, Mike's not online though 
 I was ready to look for a better alternative, but now shall wait for Mike to do a re-review


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





stinky fart said:


> Was just looking at that before coming here ahaha. From the looks of it, Mike's not online though I was ready to look for a better alternative, but now shall wait for Mike to do a re-review


 

 It doesn't look like he's inclined to do a re-review based on his response to my comments - I'm sure he gets lots of requests, so I understand. . .But it leaves a perhaps unfairly earned black eye on this unit.

 If he *was* reviewing with the 8x linear half-band as the photo implies, that's not* *the default digital filter setting on either the earlier units which weren't switchable or the current units with the 9-way adjustable filter.  So just bad luck that the unit was reviewed with the worst setting (to my ears), and it wasn't at all a subtle difference if you look at my earlier post/review.  The 8x linear half-band filter only goes up to 48kHz, so it wouldn't ship out that way.  The default/shipped setting on my units was 2x linear phase brickwall (supports up to 192kHz).
   
  Anyway, for prospective buyers, there's definitely upside/better SQ settings than what was reviewed.


----------



## Stinky Fart

Quote: 





captouch said:


> It doesn't look like he's inclined to do a re-review based on his response to my comments - I'm sure he gets lots of requests, so I understand. . .But it leaves a perhaps unfairly earned black eye on this unit.
> If he *was* reviewing with the 8x linear half-band as the photo implies, that's not* *the default digital filter setting on either the earlier units which weren't switchable or the current units with the 9-way adjustable filter.  So just bad luck that the unit was reviewed with the worst setting (to my ears), and it wasn't at all a subtle difference if you look at my earlier post/review.  The 8x linear half-band filter only goes up to 48kHz, so it wouldn't ship out that way.  The default/shipped setting on my units was 2x linear phase brickwall (supports up to 192kHz).
> 
> Anyway, for prospective buyers, there's definitely upside/better SQ settings than what was reviewed.


 

 With Mike's settings, he says the only good thing about it is the bass. Do you think if he changed the settings to the one you mentioned, the other parts will also improve significantly?
 If you have the time, would you try and set yours to the settings Mike used? I'd like to see if you'd also get the same results Mike did. So I'll know that the settings is probably why Mike hated his and that it can be changed. Also, can you state what improved with your settings? Thanks!

 Edit: Nvm, you don't need to do that! I'll just read the posts before me when I have the time. It was selfish of me to ask that, I was just lazy to read the 97 pages worth of posts... But I know that I can get more insight of the nfb-12 by reading the posts


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





stinky fart said:


> With Mike's settings, he says the only good thing about it is the bass. Do you think if he changed the settings to the one you mentioned, the other parts will also improve significantly?If you have the time, would you try and set yours to the settings Mike used? I'd like to see if you'd also get the same results Mike did. So I'll know that the settings is probably why Mike hated his and that it can be changed. Also, can you state what improved with your settings? Thanks!


 
   
  Check post#1403 - I already tried the settings Mike used and compared that with my preferred setting.  If you have more questions after reading that post, just let me know.  But basically the detail, texture, etc was much better with the 8x min apodising vs the 8x half-band.


----------



## Stinky Fart

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Check post#1403 - I already tried the settings Mike used and compared that with my preferred setting.  If you have more questions after reading that post, just let me know.  But basically the detail, texture, etc was much better with the 8x min apodising vs the 8x half-band.


 


  Now I get what you meant that he was using the worst setting. However, your review on the 8x linear phase half-band was not half as bad as how Mike reviewed it. Maybe Mike was using them without an additional amp. Have you tried using yours without your EF5? I'd like to know how they sound straight from NFB-12 since I will also use the amp section of the NFB-12


----------



## Brooko

Different people, different cans, different ears.  NFB-12 sounds great to me with HD600, DT880, and also MS1i.  That's all that matters.  To my ears, it also sounds much better than my old E7/E9 combo (now sold).  I agree with CapTouch that the default setting from Audio-gd is not the best.  But that's why you have filters - so you can change them to your own personal preferences.
   
  Mike does some great reviews - but some I agree with and some I don't.  This one I don't.  I'll carry on enjoying my NFB-12 - that's allt hat really matters in the long run - what I personally think of it.


----------



## eclipes

To be honest, Mike does do some great reviews but he exaggerates WAY TOO MUCH. So now I only read it for reference and never really take his opinion because its just too extreme imo.
  
  Quote: 





brooko said:


> Different people, different cans, different ears.  NFB-12 sounds great to me with HD600, DT880, and also MS1i.  That's all that matters.  To my ears, it also sounds much better than my old E7/E9 combo (now sold).  I agree with CapTouch that the default setting from Audio-gd is not the best.  But that's why you have filters - so you can change them to your own personal preferences.
> 
> Mike does some great reviews - but some I agree with and some I don't.  This one I don't.  I'll carry on enjoying my NFB-12 - that's allt hat really matters in the long run - what I personally think of it.


 


   
  Try following this thread and read other members reviews on the unit and filters. All I can say is its much more reliable than Mike's impression. There is a difference in filters, pretty obvious as well.
  
  Quote: 





stinky fart said:


> yeap, just read it. Now I don't wanna buy this anymore


----------



## Stinky Fart

I will, thanks! Why I'm so dependent on Mike's review is because he had reviewed the Uber Muzik Tiny Tube Dac and I'm torn between NFB-12 and that. There's only one review on Tiny Tube and it doesn't compare to other dac/amps. So I thought that if Mike didn't like the NFB-12, that meant the Tiny Tube is better. Although now I know about the different settings I'm again torn between the two 
 Hope someone can shed some light here


----------



## tim3320070

Better to _his _ear, it's subjective mostly.


----------



## mrspeakers

The review is only a partial review if he doesn't try other modes the device is capable of, using only default 8x and USB vs. coax.   I found that the alternate 4x filters with S/PDIF worked much better for my setup.  
   
  Take it with a grain of salt as the reviewer clearly didn't exercise all aspects and options of the box.  While I haven't heard a better DAC/AMP at the price, I also point out that taking aim at Schitt products as peers is NOT the same, as it's a dedicated amp without the DAC/receiver.


----------



## JIGF

Yeah, Mike's reviews can be way too subjective most of the time. But again, that is normal. And its nice to have such a nice place for reference purposes.
   
  On the NFB-12, I liked it very much with the HE-4, which is the setup I my dad uses.


----------



## eclipes

which 4x filter did you find acceptable?
  
  Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> The review is only a partial review if he doesn't try other modes the device is capable of, using only default 8x and USB vs. coax.   I found that the alternate 4x filters with S/PDIF worked much better for my setup.
> 
> Take it with a grain of salt as the reviewer clearly didn't exercise all aspects and options of the box.  While I haven't heard a better DAC/AMP at the price, I also point out that taking aim at Schitt products as peers is NOT the same, as it's a dedicated amp without the DAC/receiver.


----------



## captouch

stinky fart said:


> Now I get what you meant that he was using the worst setting. However, your review on the 8x linear phase half-band was not half as bad as how Mike reviewed it. Maybe Mike was using them without an additional amp. Have you tried using yours without your EF5? I'd like to know how they sound straight from NFB-12 since I will also use the amp section of the NFB-12




I made comments in posts 1268, 1286, 1313, and 1315 on the HP out by itself. It's a $200-250 DAC/AMP so you can't expect both to be stellar for that price. The DAC is quite good to my ears, the HP amp is a bonus to have and you can certainly use it to tide you over until you get a better amp. But it's not on the same level as the EF5 or Crack. It seems to have the power, but not the detail and refinement. But the EF5 is $500 new and only an amp so it better sound better! And the Crack is a DIY that costs $220 plus your time to build or $370 or so assembled and is really only for higher impedance cans. So it should also sound better.

I would think of the NFB-12 as a $150-175 DAC with a $50-75 HP amp built in. Could you find a better DAC in this price range? Could you find a better dedicated HP amp in this range? Really not sure because both of those ranges are pretty cheap. 

Someone is selling a couple of NFB-12's in the for sale section for $175. Pretty sure those don't have the adjustable filters, but that's pretty cheap for a nice sounding DAC and decent sounding HP amp for anyone on a really tight budget. But if you have the $, I personally think the option to change filters is worth the extra $75 or so, unless you were willing to lift pins and airwire to make a one time filter change on the fixed setting units.


----------



## Stinky Fart

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I made comments in posts 1268, 1286, 1313, and 1315 on the HP out by itself. It's a $200-250 DAC/AMP so you can't expect both to be stellar for that price. The DAC is quite good to my ears, the HP amp is a bonus to have and you can certainly use it to tide you over until you get a better amp. But it's not on the same level as the EF5 or Crack. It seems to have the power, but not the detail and refinement. But the EF5 is $500 new and only an amp so it better sound better! And the Crack is a DIY that costs $220 plus your time to build or $370 or so assembled and is really only for higher impedance cans. So it should also sound better.
> I would think of the NFB-12 as a $150-175 DAC with a $50-75 HP amp built in. Could you find a better DAC in this price range? Could you find a better dedicated HP amp in this range? Really not sure because both of those ranges are pretty cheap.
> Someone is selling a couple of NFB-12's in the for sale section for $175. Pretty sure those don't have the adjustable filters, but that's pretty cheap for a nice sounding DAC and decent sounding HP amp for anyone on a really tight budget. But if you have the $, I personally think the option to change filters is worth the extra $75 or so, unless you were willing to lift pins and airwire to make a one time filter change on the fixed setting units.


 


  hey thank you for your time explaining 
 I think I'll order these from the website! Thanks again!


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> which 4x filter did you find acceptable?


 

 I'm currently using the 4 x oversampling, minimum phase 'soft-knee'.  Just thought I'd try something a little different.  So far quietly enjoying it.  Not quite as detailed as the 8 x upsampling minimum phase apodising - but on my DT880 and HD600 it retains a nice sparkle at the top end and seems quite dynamic.  I'll give it a few days.  It seemed like the best of the 4x options with my cans.


----------



## Jibbie

I haven't messed with any of the filters yet.  I have gone back and forth between high and low gain, and I honestly can't tell a difference.  Sometimes I think the dynamics are slightly better on high gain, but then a I quickly realize that the volume is ever so slightly louder and that is what is causing me to hear a difference.  Anyone else think the gains sound the same?


----------



## mrspeakers

Unless you have a device to level match gain settings (radio shack SPL meter will do) then it's VERY hard to differentiate between settings.  I personally don't seem to hear much but I haven't dragged out the SPL meter to be sure.
   
  Volume definitely impacts people's perceptions....


----------



## olor1n

Why would there be a difference between low and high gain at the same level? I recently compared the gain on my NFB-10SE and found no perceptible difference. I used an SPL metre to volume match. Not sure how drastically different it is from the NFB-12, but I can't imagine Kingwa compromising the lower gain setting in any of his designs.


----------



## eclipes

volume does impact people's perceptions, but I did find on low gain its rather flat and dead. After using on high gain, music is more alive and musical. But  it might be placebo lol...


----------



## Tilpo

eclipes said:


> volume does impact people's perceptions, but I did find on low gain its rather flat and dead. After using on high gain, music is more alive and musical. But  it might be placebo lol...



Without more objective methods of comparing there is no way to know. 
Honestly, I doubt there will be a large difference. It's just changing a bunch of resistances; technically speaking there would be something wrong with the design if changing the gain altered the sonic characteristics in any audible way.


----------



## tme110

I don't believe there is any difference between high and low gain.


----------



## satwilson

I have the new model w/adjustable filters, this is my first DAC/ headphone amp so I don't have anything to compare to. I was just trying to upgrade the sound out of my laptop with HD280s and decided to get the NFB12. I have read this thread from page 1 and have been trying to decide my can upgrade, HD650; DT990,600ohm; or maybe the Thunderpants, I am aware these are all pretty different options and am leaning towards the DT990 as they are reputed to be somewhat bright and thought they might pair well with NFB12s slightly dark sound. I live in a small town in Kansas and don't have the option to audition these options. Out of the blue, a friend, a former recording engineer, (never knew that until we started discussing music), offered to loan me their Koss ESP950s. My initial impression, through the fixed output was lukewarm at best. Certainly better mids and highs than the HD280s, but no bottom end, weak/flabby. After searching HF forums I found some suggesting the 950s sound better with a hotter input than fixed. I set the Koss E/90 amp at 90% and switched the NFB12 to variable output, controlling the volume with the NFB12. I was amazed by the difference, the 950s had come alive. I am aware of the mixed reviews of the 950s, many suggesting they sound better/ great with a better amp. Suddenly there WAS a soundstage; articulate, detailed highs, mids, and plenty of punchy tight bass. Once again, I have no experience to compare anything, was just hoping someone else might be able to hook up an NFB12 variable output to the 950s and post their impressions from a more experienced point of view. I realize this is an unlikely pairing, however for me I may have found my upgrade. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Voohoo

I'm pretty sure this will be my next DAC/amp. Currently got the E9+E7 combo, which is NOT a good match for my HE-4 IMO. It sounds much too forward and harsh and unbalanced, making the HE-4s a bit unpleasant after like 30 min of listening. Also, the HE-4 could use more juice than the E9 can give. I'm hoping the NFB-12 will drive my HE-4 a lot more adequately while also giving me a more pleasing sound signature. I know that I 'HAVE' to get a Lyr, but I just can't afford it at the moment. Likely my future setup will consist of the NFB-12 feeding a Lyr...then even farther into the future, Bitfrost?


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> which 4x filter did you find acceptable?


 

 Sorry, I don't have access to my NFB-12 right now, but I think I mentioned earlier it was either 4X linear phase or minimum phase.


----------



## Voohoo

Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> Sorry, I don't have access to my NFB-12 right now, but I think I mentioned earlier it was either 4X linear phase or minimum phase.


 

 You said that you liked the 4x linear phase...I've been stalking the crap out of this forum today, lol. 
   
  However, the consensus seems to be that the minimum phase modes in general are the better sounding filters due to "more detail/texture."


----------



## killkli

Hi!
  I've just bought a camera kit for my iPad1. I tried it with NFB-12, my iPad told me that it need more power to be working.
  So I bought a USB hub with external power supply (5V/2A), than connected NFB-12 to my Camera kit via the ex-powered hub.
  *Click!* It worked! The sound was fantastic! This is great .
   
   
  So, a good news, the NFB-12 could work and works well enough with iPad.
   
  Cheers!!
   
  Quote: 





jimmyzfu said:


> Hi, All
> 
> Just got my NFB-12 few days ago.  Can someone please confirm that it will not work with iPad1 using the camera kit.  I tried it a few times but can't get it to work.
> 
> ...


----------



## .Sup

thanks for info^^!


----------



## eclipes

just out of curiosity, has anyone replaced their stock power cord with a better one? I remember AudioGD use to have a dedicated powercord other than stock that many buyers claimed to have a difference. Unfortunately AudioGD discontinued it. Itching to squeeze out every bit of performance possible from the nfb-12...


----------



## mrspeakers

Power cord = snake oil
   
  Really. 
   
  Buy more music or invest in new phones.


----------



## eclipes

haha really... have you tried it before?
  
  Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> Power cord = snake oil
> 
> Really.
> 
> Buy more music or invest in new phones.


----------



## mrspeakers

I have been engineering amps and speakers, as well as digital audio, for close to 35 years.  I've tried it all, and measured most of it, including the powerful placebo effect of nonexistent "upgrades". 
   
  I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that there is real and simple science to most power supply designs, and the output of a power supply is absolutely trivial to measure. There are only a few variables that have any effect; principally output impedance, rail voltage, and ripple.   Fancy cables have no effect on any of this that can't be replicated with the simple addition of RLC parts to a power supply, which are dwarfed by the transformer, rectifier and capacitive reservoir attribute. OK, that's the theory, what about reality?
   
  Here was a nice test by a serious group of audiophiles that showed they accurately identified the "audiophile" power cables 49% of the time.  E.g. they were flipping coins.  http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
   
  If you believe you hear a difference, who am I to positively say you can't.  But on this score, as there is not the slightest quantifiable proof that this is not utterly random placebo, and it's up to the claimants to show that there is some non-random way that the effects can be heard.  
   
  Probably this kind of discussion is better on Sound Science rather than here (and it has been there before, and I'm sure will be again)....


----------



## Tilpo

We appreciate your clarification but strictly speaking there is a ban on ABX on this forum 
I would have to agree that the idea of power cables making a difference seem like snake oil.
What about power 'cleaners' though? The kind of devices that turn your 'dirty' mains into a perfect 50/60hz sine wave. I've been wondering whether such devices really do make as large a difference as some people claim.


----------



## mrspeakers

Unless it's an isolation transformer the claims always seemed to me to be exaggerated, though there are some that do reduce RFI, they don't actually regulate voltage they just display it, which is sometimes useful.  A poor power supply could let RFI through, and I believe some power conditioners do have filters for RFI, but unless you live under a cell or radio tower, I'd be surprised if this is a problem.
   
  Isolation transformers really do work at getting rid of ground loops and reducing high-frequency noise that could ride on top of the ripple (another filter besides the capacitor that usually shunts the big filter caps for this purpose), but they aren't usually in "conditioners".  Isolation transformers typically handle lower power components because they are big and expensive, and these devices are more sensitive to noise than an amplifier.  www.goertz.com has a good example...  
   
  If you really have RFI or ground noise in your power, you'd hear some kind of nasty background buzz, radio or data leakage, etc when at most there should be a small amount of hiss.  Hiss is an artifact of tubes or semiconductors, and is not related to power cleanliness.  
   
  Hope that helps...


----------



## movi

how do aftermarket headphone cables differ from aftermarket power cables? (in terms of the difference that they make, generally speaking)


----------



## Tilpo

movi said:


> how do aftermarket headphone cables differ from aftermarket power cables? (in terms of the difference that they make, generally speaking)



None whatsoever. Differences in sound quality of cables is inaudible at best. 
The only reason to get after-market cables is for their improved build quality and aesthetics, or you can get them if you believe in placebos. 

Don't go hatin' on me, but I believe in science more than I do in people's opinions.


----------



## Adolf

Well i know the NFB-12 can go up to 24Bit / 192KHz with optical(spdif Optical) but does anyone here actually have it set on that? Do you notice a vase improvement?
   

   
  Also just to add what settings does everyone here use? i'm currently using 8x oversampling, minimum phase apodising filter with my 650's.


----------



## captouch

I'm using the same setting as you Adolf
   
  Quote: 





adolf said:


> Well i know the NFB-12 can go up to 24Bit / 192KHz with optical(spdif Optical) but does anyone here actually have it set on that? Do you notice a vase improvement?
> 
> 
> 
> Also just to add what settings does everyone here use? i'm currently using 8x oversampling, minimum phase apodising filter with my 650's.


----------



## mrspeakers

If your software is outputting 24/192 than whatever your NFB-12 is doing, it isn't 8x oversampling.  Presumably your software is doing the up sampling, and the DAC is doing the conversion using whatever the default is for 24/192.  The 8x oversampling modes are limited to inputs up to 24/48.
   
  This is why I set mine for 4x oversampling, as all my material is up sampled via software to 88.2 or 96K.


----------



## Adolf

Well i was playing around with the settings, and i find it hard to notice a difference...... Anyway i put it back on 8x and i changed it to 24bit/48hz
   
  Do you reckon it will be working correctly now?


----------



## mrspeakers

It was probably working "correctly" before...  I don't know what it does when it gets an input greater than the max for up sampling.  I'd guess it uses a generic brick wall, but that's just an assumption.  But if your software doesn't upsample, this is probably your best bet.
   
  It's probably a better topic for sound science, but these days a lot of the software up samplers seem to offer better resolution and quality than the hardware.  Since your software can upsample, I'd keep using your software up sampling.  As long as it is locking it's probably working (PC guys chime in, I use Mac tools and don't know the PC Audio behavior very well).


----------



## Jack Nicholson

hi
   
  i would like to know if audio-gd products are sent to europe from europe or asia?


----------



## EraserXIV

I believe all products purchased directly from Audio-GD are sent from Asia.


----------



## Jack Nicholson

hmmm
  thats bad cuz then i have to add 20% of the price+shipping for taxes 
  Does anyone know for some european shops (with international shipping) which sells the NFB-12?


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





jack nicholson said:


> hmmm
> thats bad cuz then i have to add 20% of the price+shipping for taxes
> Does anyone know for some european shops (with international shipping) which sells the NFB-12?


 


  All shops are listed on Audio GD site and their products include 20% tax if purchased from European shops.


----------



## xxhaxx

http://www.ampcity.co.uk/
http://www.audiophonics.fr/
http://www.intoaudio.co.nz/
   
  Here you go


----------



## Jack Nicholson

thx didnt see this
   
  heh looks like the cheapest way is directly from audio-gd which comes 300$


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





jack nicholson said:


> thx didnt see this
> 
> heh looks like the cheapest way is directly from audio-gd which comes 300$


 


  still a good price for what you get. Lets face it, 200$ is basically free for this great device with so many functionalities..


----------



## Jack Nicholson

ye but 300$ aint that free anymore 
  ill see if I can find some alternatives if not I guess will get it
   
  btw še en slovenec tukaj


----------



## .Sup

Quote: 





jack nicholson said:


> ye but 300$ aint that free anymore
> ill see if I can find some alternatives if not I guess will get it
> 
> btw še en slovenec tukaj


 


  Super. Nas je kar nekaj vidim. Nice nickname selection


----------



## tme110

Maybe.  Pacific valve sold AGD gear for the US at about $100 over cost on AGD's site but they were actually cheaper since PV's price was the total price to your door and AGD was just the product cost with other costs to be added.
  
  Quote: 





jack nicholson said:


> thx didnt see this
> 
> heh looks like the cheapest way is directly from audio-gd which comes 300$


----------



## eclipes

just wanted share with you guys about my recent purchase on the SoniKLEER II Power Cord.  I was experiencing slight grain in a few songs and other members has also experienced it too. So i thought upgrading RCA cable or power cord will make a difference. The RCA cable made a slight difference so i thought it was worth keeping. The power cord actually made a larger difference and did remove the grain that I was experiencing. Other noticeable difference was an improvement in the low end, better bass depth and a more spacious sound. Worth the try imo if anyone is looking for a small budget upgrade.


----------



## Tilpo

eclipes said:


> just wanted share with you guys about my recent purchase on the SoniKLEER II Power Cord.  I was experiencing slight grain in a few songs and other members has also experienced it too. So i thought upgrading RCA cable or power cord will make a difference. The RCA cable made a slight difference so i thought it was worth keeping. The power cord actually made a larger difference and did remove the grain that I was experiencing. Other noticeable difference was an improvement in the low end, better bass depth and a more spacious sound. Worth the try imo if anyone is looking for a small budget upgrade.



I don't see how changing the power cord could even theoretically change the sound signature in any way, let alone to the point of being audible. 
The power cord is only one or two meters of good cable; even if a better cable would make a difference to the AC signal then you must still consider the fact that the AC has traveled for tens of thousands of meters on a 'bad' cable. And then there is the question whether or not a better AC signal even has an audible effect on the sound quality. Most power supplies do a pretty good job in keeping a constant voltage, if it doesn't then it's the power supply that is failing, not the AC. 

If you hear differences, then good for you. But I am positive that what you are hearing is a placebo.
I'm not telling you to stop what you're doing, but I do want to say that I am skeptic to say the least. Paying money for imaginary differences is just as good as paying for real ones, however I still deeply prefer real ones.


----------



## eclipes

I do understand what you're saying and I also don't wish to start a war about if cables make a difference or not but the grainy sound did go away.
  
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I don't see how changing the power cord could even theoretically change the sound signature in any way, let alone to the point of being audible.
> The power cord is only one or two meters of good cable; even if a better cable would make a difference to the AC signal then you must still consider the fact that the AC has traveled for tens of thousands of meters on a 'bad' cable. And then there is the question whether or not a better AC signal even has an audible effect on the sound quality. Most power supplies do a pretty good job in keeping a constant voltage, if it doesn't then it's the power supply that is failing, not the AC.
> If you hear differences, then good for you. But I am positive that what you are hearing is a placebo.
> I'm not telling you to stop what you're doing, but I do want to say that I am skeptic to say the least. Paying money for imaginary differences is just as good as paying for real ones, however I still deeply prefer real ones.


----------



## Jibbie

Agreed.  This argument is a quick way to derail any thread.  Especially if, in retort, someone talks about That Which May Not Be Discussed, then the mods will close the thread.
  
  Quote: 





eclipes said:


> ... and I also don't wish to start a war about if cables make a difference or not...


----------



## Tilpo

It was not my intention to start an argument, and I have to admit that I shouldn't have made that comment.
I couldn't hold myself back and made a comment that should have gone into the Sound Science sub-forum, rather than this thread. 

My apologies.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> just wanted share with you guys about my recent purchase on the SoniKLEER II Power Cord.  I was experiencing slight grain in a few songs and other members has also experienced it too. So i thought upgrading RCA cable or power cord will make a difference. The RCA cable made a slight difference so i thought it was worth keeping. The power cord actually made a larger difference and did remove the grain that I was experiencing. Other noticeable difference was an improvement in the low end, better bass depth and a more spacious sound. Worth the try imo if anyone is looking for a small budget upgrade.


 


  I have the NFB-12 coming in the mail from another Head-Fier.  I was strongly considering replacing the stock power cord(for other reasons not sound related), and your recommendation caught my eye.  If you don't mind, could you tell me where you purchased the SoniKLEER cable from?


----------



## eclipes

I actually bought my current Sonikleer from a friend, but you could order it off Ebay which I bought another one for my amp but I am still waiting for it. The difference on the dac was quite positive so I'll see what 2 sonikleer power cords will do in my desktop rig. The link to the item is http://www.ebay.ca/itm/370545777843?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_3487wt_1397
   
  cheers
  
  Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> I have the NFB-12 coming in the mail from another Head-Fier.  I was strongly considering replacing the stock power cord(for other reasons not sound related), and your recommendation caught my eye.  If you don't mind, could you tell me where you purchased the SoniKLEER cable from?


----------



## Syrk

Got mine within a week and I love how well built is. Sounds great as well. It's my first dac and it sounds far better than my sound card.


----------



## superballz00

Will I be able to use the HP out with my DBA-02 (108dB/mW and 43 Ohm)? The 1800mW at 50 Ohm of the HP amp makes me think there is no way I can use it with my DBA-02.


----------



## eclipes

glad you liked it, play around with the filters and it should impress you even more. Wait until you reach around 300-500hour mark and it will sound even better. AudioGD gears are known for improving over time.

  
  Quote: 





syrk said:


> Got mine within a week and I love how well built is. Sounds great as well. It's my first dac and it sounds far better than my sound card.


 


   
  I believe so, I would sometimes use it with my um3x and its all good.

  
  Quote: 





superballz00 said:


> Will I be able to use the HP out with my DBA-02 (108dB/mW and 43 Ohm)? The 1800mW at 50 Ohm of the HP amp makes me think there is no way I can use it with my DBA-02.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> I actually bought my current Sonikleer from a friend, but you could order it off Ebay which I bought another one for my amp but I am still waiting for it. The difference on the dac was quite positive so I'll see what 2 sonikleer power cords will do in my desktop rig. The link to the item is http://www.ebay.ca/itm/370545777843?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_3487wt_1397
> 
> cheers


 


  Thanks for the link eclipes!  That cord looks quite nice.


----------



## eclipes

yup, the cable is great as a small touch to any nfb-12 rig, definitely a noticeable improvement for such a small price. Anything more expensive is just unrealistic...

  
  Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> Thanks for the link eclipes!  That cord looks quite nice.


----------



## ac500

I really don't understand how anyone can think changing an AC power cable will change the sound signature ("BETTER BASS RESPONSE-OPENS UP MIDS, HIGHS & SOUNDSTAGE"). Even assuming there is a difference in cables themselves - you do realize that AC power input is heavily filtered and regulated by the PSU within the NFB12, right?


----------



## Tilpo

ac500 said:


> I really don't understand how anyone can think changing an AC power cable will change the sound signature ("BETTER BASS RESPONSE-OPENS UP MIDS, HIGHS & SOUNDSTAGE"). Even assuming there is a difference in cables themselves - you do realize that AC power input is heavily filtered and regulated by the PSU within the NFB12, right?



I would have to agree, but this isn't the 'Sound Science' forum.
If people are happy with buying power cables, let them be. Who are we to preach what is right or wrong?


----------



## eclipes

guys..... i do have to agree that in the ad, their explanation is a bit exaggerated but we all know its just marketing needs, don't take it too seriously. Doesn't matter if the cable can affect the sound or not, one thing that is for sure is, the cable quality is much more study and strong compared to stock. Which in my case felt that a stronger cable will be better for my needs, and anything else was a bonus. To be honest, the sound difference is very slight but the grain that I was hearing did go away, to me its pretty much worth the small price tag anyways.
  
    
   
  Quote:


ac500 said:


> I really don't understand how anyone can think changing an AC power cable will change the sound signature ("BETTER BASS RESPONSE-OPENS UP MIDS, HIGHS & SOUNDSTAGE"). Even assuming there is a difference in cables themselves - you do realize that AC power input is heavily filtered and regulated by the PSU within the NFB12, right?


 
  Quote:


tilpo said:


> I would have to agree, but this isn't the 'Sound Science' forum.
> If people are happy with buying power cables, let them be. Who are we to preach what is right or wrong?


----------



## mrspeakers

Power cable discussion = death of thread
   
  Sound Science or let it die a quiet death (free of grain).


----------



## Digital-Pride

Allow me to return the thread to the proper topic, for Audio GD users does the amp need to warm up a bit before use?  If so, for how long?


----------



## Brooko

D-P, it's SS so I've never bothered warming it up first.  I just switch it on when I'm booting up - so I guess it gets a couple of minutes by the time the PC boots, then I'm generally just using it.  I've never noticed a need for warming up anyway.
   
  Assuming you getting the latest version - make sure when it arrives (and after you get used to it) - play around with the switchable digital filters - it's a lot of fun!
   
  I'll be interested to hear your comparison vs E7/E9.  I ended up selling the Fiios - thought the NFB-12 sounded a lot better.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





brooko said:


> D-P, it's SS so I've never bothered warming it up first.  I just switch it on when I'm booting up - so I guess it gets a couple of minutes by the time the PC boots, then I'm generally just using it.  I've never noticed a need for warming up anyway.
> 
> Assuming you getting the latest version - make sure when it arrives (and after you get used to it) - play around with the switchable digital filters - it's a lot of fun!
> 
> I'll be interested to hear your comparison vs E7/E9.  I ended up selling the Fiios - thought the NFB-12 sounded a lot better.


 

 Thanks Brooko!  I'm looking forward to those comparisons too.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I found the Fiio combo while pretty good in its own right, to be a bit thin and not very musical at times.  I like how the NFB-12 has a slightly more musical sound signature(from what I've read) along with what should be a significantly better DAC section to the E7 and better amp to the E9.
  The Head-Fier I bought the amp from, got it about four months ago so it might be the newer version.   I'll find out in a few days.


----------



## Brooko

I found it has quite a lot of (almost too much) warmth at first - but it seemed to settle in nicely (me getting used to the sound sig I think).  Once I'd put a few hours on it, I started playing around with the filters and found one that is quite detailed (brings the top end out nicely and lowers the warmth a little), and another that I've found sits between the default and the detailed setting.
   
  One thing it doesn't lack for me is body - and I agree that the E7/E9 can be a little thin.
   
  The NFB-12 pairs really well with my HD600s - although I am looking at a LD MkIII after Xmas - and just using the DAC in the NFB-12.
   
  The filters I settled on:

 8 x oversampling, Minimum Phase Apodising (up to 48KHz support) - detailed and less warmth
 4 x oversampling, Minimum Phase Soft-knee (up to 96KHz support) - mid-way between default and the one listed above.
   
  I'm currently using the 4x.


----------



## eclipes

I don' think so, but I tend to leave it on since I need to warm up my tube amp. Usually 15-20minutes of warm up and its ready to go.
  
  Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> Allow me to return the thread to the proper topic, for Audio GD users does the amp need to warm up a bit before use?  If so, for how long?


----------



## eclipes

im using the 8x right now, it is pretty detailed and it balances quite well with my tube amp. Im gonna give the 4x a try to see what happens.
  
  Quote: 





brooko said:


> I found it has quite a lot of (almost too much) warmth at first - but it seemed to settle in nicely (me getting used to the sound sig I think).  Once I'd put a few hours on it, I started playing around with the filters and found one that is quite detailed (brings the top end out nicely and lowers the warmth a little), and another that I've found sits between the default and the detailed setting.
> 
> One thing it doesn't lack for me is body - and I agree that the E7/E9 can be a little thin.
> 
> ...


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





brooko said:


> I found it has quite a lot of (almost too much) warmth at first - but it seemed to settle in nicely (me getting used to the sound sig I think).  Once I'd put a few hours on it, I started playing around with the filters and found one that is quite detailed (brings the top end out nicely and lowers the warmth a little), and another that I've found sits between the default and the detailed setting.
> 
> One thing it doesn't lack for me is body - and I agree that the E7/E9 can be a little thin.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank again for the info Brooko!  I'll keep these settings in mind when I'm switching between sampling modes.


----------



## mrspeakers

In my experience no...  Since the amp is discrete and there are no huge heats inks there to warm up so thermal stability occurs in minutes....


----------



## donunus

Quote: 





brooko said:


> I found it has quite a lot of (almost too much) warmth at first - but it seemed to settle in nicely (me getting used to the sound sig I think).  Once I'd put a few hours on it, I started playing around with the filters and found one that is quite detailed (brings the top end out nicely and lowers the warmth a little), and another that I've found sits between the default and the detailed setting.
> 
> One thing it doesn't lack for me is body - and I agree that the E7/E9 can be a little thin.
> 
> ...


 


  The E7/E9 sounds thin because of the E7. Even when using the cheaper D3 dac to feed into the E9, the sound improves in balance quite a bit. I find this combo a very good value when used with the hd600s. I don't like the E9 with low impedance cans though. 
   
  I cannot say anything about the nfb12 though since I haven't heard them but the nfb11 wasn't too much to my liking.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





donunus said:


> The E7/E9 sounds thin because of the E7. Even when using the cheaper D3 dac to feed into the E9, the sound improves in balance quite a bit. I find this combo a very good value when used with the hd600s. I don't like the E9 with low impedance cans though.
> 
> I cannot say anything about the nfb12 though since I haven't heard them but the nfb11 wasn't too much to my liking.


 
   
  You've got a point there.  When I had the HRT's Music Streamer II paired briefly with the E9, the resulting sound was noticeably more dynamic with stronger, deeper bass, better separation and vocal presence.  I didn't keep it due to usb connection issues and it just sounded a little dryer than the E7 to my ears.  It's true the weak liink in the Fiio combo is the E7, which makes the upcoming E17 a very interesting upgrade.


----------



## Tilpo

mrspeakers said:


> In my experience no...  Since the amp is discrete and there are no huge heats inks there to warm up so thermal stability occurs in minutes....



I agree, there are no parts in the NFB-12 that really require much warmup time. Due to the small enclosure thermal stability should be reached quickly as well, although I would have to say that the NFB-12 tends to operate a bit on the hot side. The could have put in ventilation holes.

Burn-in might be real for the NFB-12 though. It is known that the electric properties of alum caps tend to change slightly over time. 
I can't say I noticed any burn-in, but that might very well be because I wasn't specifically paying attention to it either.


----------



## Denys

Hi,
   
  I am moving soon with my girlfriend. We'll have a TV in the bedroom and she doesn't want me to wake her up while I watch TV late at night. I was considering buying the NFB-12 and use it with the optical output of the TV decoder.... I would also use my Sennheiser HD448 (Closed headphones) with this amp.
   
  Do you think it's a wise choice ? Also, may I use the NFB12 as it comes, or must you open it to make changes as it seems on the web page ?
   
  Thanks
   
  Denys


----------



## eclipes

either way, the nfb-12 would be still a great unit to use. Changing the filters inside doesn't necessary make the sound quality better but its a good way to adjust and match your music preference. In the end, change or no change, i think you will be happy with the unit itself.
  
  Quote: 





denys said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am moving soon with my girlfriend. We'll have a TV in the bedroom and she doesn't want me to wake her up while I watch TV late at night. I was considering buying the NFB-12 and use it with the optical output of the TV decoder.... I would also use my Sennheiser HD448 (Closed headphones) with this amp.
> 
> ...


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> either way, the nfb-12 would be still a great unit to use. Changing the filters inside doesn't necessary make the sound quality better but its a good way to adjust and match your music preference. In the end, change or no change, i think you will be happy with the unit itself.


 

 Thanks Eclipes..... I already own two DAC from Audio-GD..... I was just afraid this unit could be too cheap to be a good value.... On the other hand, it will be used mostly to listen to TV; therefore, the sound quality is not as important as the sound system....
   
  Anyway... thanks for your time
   
  Denys


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





denys said:


> Thanks Eclipes..... I already own two DAC from Audio-GD..... I was just afraid this unit could be too cheap to be a good value.... On the other hand, it will be used mostly to listen to TV; therefore, the sound quality is not as important as the sound system....
> 
> Anyway... thanks for your time
> 
> Denys


 

 I would burn it in for awhile, then open it up and compare digital filters to see what you like best.  Based on what most are saying, there's just 2-3 that you probably need to compare. Then, once you determine which you like, you never have to open it up again.


----------



## tim3320070

Not to take a sale away from Kingwa, but you can use the RCA outs from the back of your TV receiver (assuming you have that) to a in-line volume control, to your headphones. It's not as good as the NFB12 but it's not bad. I suggest this as the guy who uses a NFB10SE for TV use


----------



## Denys

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> Not to take a sale away from Kingwa, but you can use the RCA outs from the back of your TV receiver (assuming you have that) to a in-line volume control, to your headphones. It's not as good as the NFB12 but it's not bad. I suggest this as the guy who uses a NFB10SE for TV use


 

 Yes, I thought of it, but then again, sometimes I watch a DVD or a Music channel....therefore, I want a minimum of good sound quality...... This is why I was looking at the NFB12.....or maybe I should go for the NFB-5 ????
   
  Densy


----------



## tim3320070

NFB12 was definitely better than the inline volume deal, and better than the iBasso D10 I had.


----------



## hpnut

I have a beginner question, I could not find the answer to in this massive thread: how do I know if my NFB-12 is getting a bit perfect stream? I am using Deadbeef on Linux as a player and when I play a 192kHz file over USB to the NFB-12 it plays fine. I know the max samplerate over usb is 96kHz. So what is happening? Is the software downsampling or is this done inside the NFB-12?
   
  I tried playing a dts encoded wav file and it too plays fine. But how do I know if I am actually hearing a dts encoded file and not a downsampled 16bit/44kHz version of that file? Is there any way to know this?


----------



## Tilpo

hpnut said:


> I have a beginner question, I could not find the answer to in this massive thread: how do I know if my NFB-12 is getting a bit perfect stream? I am using Deadbeef on Linux as a player and when I play a 192kHz file over USB to the NFB-12 it plays fine. I know the max samplerate over usb is 96kHz. So what is happening? Is the software downsampling or is this done inside the NFB-12?
> 
> I tried playing a dts encoded wav file and it too plays fine. But how do I know if I am actually hearing a dts encoded file and not a downsampled 16bit/44kHz version of that file? Is there any way to know this?



I don't think there is any way to know. But if you try to put 192kHz over USB it is most likely down sampled by the OS.


----------



## iLovPieNCake

Are there some models of the NFB-12 that don't have adjustable filters? There are no pins anywhere on my 12, mine doesn't have any markings on the switches.


----------



## Tilpo

ilovpiencake said:


> Are there some models of the NFB-12 that don't have adjustable filters? There are no pins anywhere on my 12, mine doesn't have any markings on the switches.



The earlier models didn't have an adjustable filter. Mine doesn't have one either, for example.

When did you buy yours?


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I don't think there is any way to know. But if you try to put 192kHz over USB it is most likely down sampled by the OS.


 

 It has to be on the OS-side.


----------



## hpnut

Thats too bad. So even if playing a 96kHz file over USB it might be it arrives in the NFB-12 as a downsampled 44kHz file? Learning something new every day


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





hpnut said:


> Thats too bad. So even if playing a 96kHz file over USB it might be it arrives in the NFB-12 as a downsampled 44kHz file? Learning something new every day


 

 No - it'll do 24/96 over USB.


----------



## turimbar1

I found out about the clicks in integer mode, turns out my old comp send out a zero bit at certain intervals due to some power issue or something. need to get a powered usb hub if I want to use integer mode, and here I was blaming the tenor usb chip in the nfb12.


----------



## Tilpo

hpnut said:


> Thats too bad. So even if playing a 96kHz file over USB it might be it arrives in the NFB-12 as a downsampled 44kHz file? Learning something new every day





brooko said:


> No - it'll do 24/96 over USB.



24/96 is the _maximum_ over USB. Anything lower than that will stay the same, anything higher will be downsampled by the OS. That is, it should be downsampled by the OS, if not the signal will be messed up. 
Don't worry too much about it. As far as I know there hasn't been any disputable evidence whether or not 96kHz is _audibly_ better than 44.1kHz. The only thing is that with lower sample rates the NFB-12 changes the frequency response a bit on the high treble, this might be audible but it won't be a large difference as it only hits the 1dB mark at about 14kHz; a frequency almost neglected by our perception of sound.


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





hpnut said:


> Thats too bad. So even if playing a 96kHz file over USB it might be it arrives in the NFB-12 as a downsampled 44kHz file? Learning something new every day


 


  Most software will downsample to the highest supported bit-rate, such as 88.2 or 96, not 44.1 of 48 unless you have set it up to do so...


----------



## ac500

Sheesh, this thing is literally acting as a space heater for my room as I speak. It's not even subtle. I can feel the heat surrounding that part of my room.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Sheesh, this thing is literally acting as a space heater for my room as I speak. It's not even subtle. I can feel the heat surrounding that part of my room.


 

  
  Weird.  Mine is 'mildly' warm (as most amps are) - nowhere near what you described though .....


----------



## ac500

Well it's warm to the touch, not hot or painful or anything. It's just that when it's on for hours in a room, it tends to heat up the environment.


----------



## eclipes

same, i try not to leave it on for too long, almost every 8 hours I will shut it down for a few hours to let it rest. Thats only because I have my tube amp on as well so more care is needed. But it looks like the nfb-12 can hold off for much longer with no problems, mine has never been hot to touch but quite warm and does act as mini heater in my room.

  
  Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Well it's warm to the touch, not hot or painful or anything. It's just that when it's on for hours in a room, it tends to heat up the environment.


----------



## dwinnert

Well....just ordered last Thursday and got an email that it shipped Friday...looking forward to givng this a try.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Well it's warm to the touch, not hot or painful or anything. It's just that when it's on for hours in a room, it tends to heat up the environment.


 


  Not only does it provide quality audio, it keeps one warm during those cold winter nights.  What more could an audio junkie ask for?


----------



## Tilpo

digital-pride said:


> Not only does it provide quality audio, it keeps one warm during those cold winter nights.  What more could an audio junkie ask for?



An SR-009 and a Blue Hawaii?

Oh wait, it was a rhetorical question.


----------



## glenda

I received one of these off the forum classifieds.  It doesn't have the jumpers.  So  it is factory set at 2x soft knee.
   
  I knew I would have to upsample RBCD since this factory filter is designed for 192khz.  First listen with foobar and no upsampling,  very dull.
   
  Upsample to 96k with sox,  and this little thing is amazing.   I am absolutely doubfounded by the quality of the amp and of the analog section of the DAC.   This thing has a lot of power,  few headphone amps can really bring AKG sextetts to their potential and this does a great job.
   
  The newer units with the so called software control of the wolfson need to make the 4x apodizing filters available before one should upgrade over the nfb-12,  the 4x apodizing filters are what my the wolfson famous for hirez but their are only unlocked with serial control
   
  .  My fear is Kingwa's "software" implementation on the 10SE for example is just an mcu controlingy relays with the wolfson  actually still in hardware mode which coincidentally can't access the 4x apodizing filters or dither.
   
  In fact the newer software controlled Audio-gd wolfson models can only access the same filters available in wolfson hardware mode.
   
  So I bought this little nfb-12 to hold me over till Kingwa finds a better programmer for his mid/upper level gear,  only this thing is just fine and one hell of a deal.
   
  So my recommendation to nfb-12 owners is hold off on upgrading till Audio-gd get's the digital section right,  just like with the ref1/7 dsp rev 1 thru 5,  the company is analog supreme but digital well not so supreme.  But for $200 this NFB-12 is very supreme.


----------



## dwinnert

Well....ordered the NFB-12 last Thursday and it was just delivered this morning. Been running for the last five hours and it is barely warm to the touch....Sounds fantastic with my Grados. The bass has a little more punch then my Schiit Asgard feed by a HRT MS II+ and Decibel....which is a Mac based system. This NFB-12 is on a Win 7 box and Foobar.....
   
  Overall, I think this is a steel at $248 shipped.


----------



## eclipes

Glad both of you like the NFB-12, they do indeed sound great on the grados. Remember to experiment the filters and post up whichever you like most.
  
  Quote: 





glenda said:


> I received one of these off the forum classifieds.  It doesn't have the jumpers.  So  it is factory set at 2x soft knee.
> 
> I knew I would have to upsample RBCD since this factory filter is designed for 192khz.  First listen with foobar and no upsampling,  very dull.
> 
> ...


 


   


  Quote: 





dwinnert said:


> Well....ordered the NFB-12 last Thursday and it was just delivered this morning. Been running for the last five hours and it is barely warm to the touch....Sounds fantastic with my Grados. The bass has a little more punch then my Schiit Asgard feed by a HRT MS II+ and Decibel....which is a Mac based system. This NFB-12 is on a Win & box and Foobar.....
> 
> Overall, I think this is a steel at $248 shipped.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





glenda said:


> I received one of these off the forum classifieds.  It doesn't have the jumpers.  So  it is factory set at 2x soft knee.
> 
> I knew I would have to upsample RBCD since this factory filter is designed for 192khz.  First listen with foobar and no upsampling,  very dull.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I have the version with adjustable filters.  I just feed optical out of my CD player into the NFB-12 and am set at 8x min phase apodising filter.
   
  Are you saying that upsampling RBCD and using one of the 4x filters would result in better SQ?


----------



## mvmv

EDIT - Sorted


----------



## dwinnert

Wow.....I am really digging the sound out of this....hard to explain. Reminds me of my old Sumo Polaris II. No fatigue after 6+ hours non-stop. Very creamy. Listening to Caribou Swim remixes in FLAC atm.....beautiful.


----------



## glenda

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I have the version with adjustable filters.  I just feed optical out of my CD player into the NFB-12 and am set at 8x min phase apodising filter.
> 
> Are you saying that upsampling RBCD and using one of the 4x filters would result in better SQ?


 

 No there  are two 4x apodizing filters locked on these wolfson DAC's,  the big expensive companies that use these in their high end gear have programmers who can unlock and give acces to these filters with the serial port (see the datasheet.)   These 4x apodizing filters are what made the wolfson famous for 24/96 hirez (no upsampling required.) 
   
  Notice that most have found that the hardware acessable 8x apodizing filters the better of the limited selection offered by AudioGD but not compatible with hirez.   The same holds true with 2x for 192k hirez and 4x 96k hirez, for hirez_ you want the software locked apodizing filters_ but it looks like Kingwa hasn't figured it out yet.      Waiting till he does out before I upgrade,  I have faith.  In the mean time the NFB-12 is an outstanding value with an excellent analog section.   If you are interested in the subject google the WM8471 datasheet, apodizing oversampling,  and arduino programming.


----------



## reiserFS

So I ordered a NFB-12 from Audio-Gd while it still showed that they had 3+ in stock, the following day though it was displaying "Available to order. Ships within 7 days.". I wrote AmpCity about this two days ago but didn't receive a answer yet, heck, even Audio-Gd is more friendlier and responsive than AmpCity.
   
Feels like being ripped off. If I don't hear anything from them until next week, I'll contact PayPal.
   
  Edit: I was contacted by AmpCity regarding my order, everything's well.


----------



## dwinnert

Quote: 





reiserfs said:


> So I ordered a NFB-12 from Audio-Gd while it still showed that they had 3+ in stock, the following day though it was displaying "Available to order. Ships within 7 days.". I wrote AmpCity about this two days ago but didn't receive a answer yet, heck, even Audio-Gd is more friendlier and responsive than AmpCity.
> 
> Feels like being ripped off. If I don't hear anything from them until next week, I'll contact PayPal.


 

  
  I ordered straight from Audio-GD and got it in five days shipped to the US.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





glenda said:


> No there  are two 4x apodizing filters locked on these wolfson DAC's,  the big expensive companies that use these in their high end gear have programmers who can unlock and give acces to these filters with the serial port (see the datasheet.)   These 4x apodizing filters are what made the wolfson famous for 24/96 hirez (no upsampling required.)
> 
> Notice that most have found that the hardware acessable 8x apodizing filters the better of the limited selection offered by AudioGD but not compatible with hirez.   The same holds true with 2x for 192k hirez and 4x 96k hirez, for hirez_ you want the software locked apodizing filters_ but it looks like Kingwa hasn't figured it out yet.      Waiting till he does out before I upgrade,  I have faith.  In the mean time the NFB-12 is an outstanding value with an excellent analog section.   If you are interested in the subject google the WM8471 datasheet, apodizing oversampling,  and arduino programming.


 


 What needs to be done to use the locked filters? If you can help Kingwa find out that'd be nice. I think it's amazing all the stuff he does with software when some of the spec sheets are probably in English not Chinese.


----------



## reiserFS

So, what's the best "oversampling" setting?


----------



## Elanzer

Quote: 





reiserfs said:


> So, what's the best "oversampling" setting?


 


   
  Most people prefer the 8x Linear Phase Apodising filter, it's widely considered the best filter on the WM8741 DA chip. This will limit you to 48KHz output.
   
  If you need 96KHz support, try 4x Linear Phase Soft-Knee filter, since the 4x Linear Phase Apodising filter isn't available on audio-gd's gear.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> Most people prefer the 8x Linear Phase Apodising filter, it's widely considered the best filter on the WM8741 DA chip. This will limit you to 48KHz output.
> 
> If you need 96KHz support, try 4x Linear Phase Soft-Knee filter, since the 4x Linear Phase Apodising filter isn't available on audio-gd's gear.


 

 I liked 8x Minimum Phase Apodising filter the best, but don't recall if I tried every single one.  Did you compare 8x Linear Apodising to 8x Minimum Apodising?


----------



## Chronos

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I liked 8x Minimum Phase Apodising filter the best, but don't recall if I tried every single one.  Did you compare 8x Linear Apodising to 8x Minimum Apodising?


 


  I really didn't like the NFB-12 without any filters, in fact I was so disappointed I wanted to get rid of it right away.  I thought it was way too warm, sucked out all the bass and fun from my Denon D7000's.  I tried the 8x Minimum phase adipose filter setting also and really like it now.  That headfonia review really missed out by trying this thing stock.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





chronos said:


> I really didn't like the NFB-12 without any filters, in fact I was so disappointed I wanted to get rid of it right away.  I thought it was way too warm, sucked out all the bass and fun from my Denon D7000's.  I tried the 8x Minimum phase adipose filter setting also and really like it now.  That headfonia review really missed out by trying this thing stock.


 

 Agree, I was disappointed as well until I went with the revised filter setting.  Agree that Headphonia missed out and did a disservice to the unit by not at least trying other settings.  Someone suggested it, but guess they were too busy to try it.


----------



## eclipes

Overexaggerated review and unwillingly to try other filters when numerous people suggested the 8x filter. Ever since that, disappointed in headfonia.

  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> Agree, I was disappointed as well until I went with the revised filter setting.  Agree that Headphonia missed out and did a disservice to the unit by not at least trying other settings.  Someone suggested it, but guess they were too busy to try it.


----------



## ac500

I wish someone would write a simple guide on how to select among the most popular filters. Because you can't expect every reviewer to know either.


----------



## glenda

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> I wish someone would write a simple guide on how to select among the most popular filters. Because you can't expect every reviewer to know either.


 


  Come on its right on the Audio-gd website plain as day.  
   
  The least the reviewer could have down is upsampled so the right filter was being used, I think the reviewer purposely handicapped the NFB12 to prove a point about plug and play or something.   He's forgeting that the average buyer is not so inept as to make a few adjustments for their system. 
   
  Again this discussion points to why we need to push Audio-GD to software control which unlocks the 4x apodizing filters for Hirez, even the 10SE doesn't have the WM8471 in software mode.
   
  The other thing is the dither features,  I know that is a bad word to some but all oversampling has it and it would be nice to be able to select each of the four available inside the WM8471.   Its a top end chip when it is under software control,  thats the difference between its use in such a wide range of gear (ie everything from ($100 to near 5 figures.)  
   
  Thinking about opening my NFB12 and trying the hifidino controller (which is opensource with the code right on his webpage for complete software control) and possibly Ciuffoli's LL1527 output stage but changing the output stage would probably be a mistake:
   
  See I've been measuring the NFB12  as a standalone DAC and its distortion is relatively high,  not bad but surprisingly higher than even a decent tube dac.   But the key unique feature/design of this nfb12 is the inegration to the headphone amp and the complete absense of typical color adding negative feedback.   In other words after I was measuring the dac output I also measured the headphone out and the distortion spectra/level was the same,  _even as the volume knob (power out) was turned up _!  
   
  This is the beauty of Kingwas's analog design in that the entire system is scaled as the volume knob is turned,   so that up to a point a change in volume does not equal a change the sound quality.   Thats one of the dirty secrets about most any gear you buy,  the dac output is attenuated then the amp with its fixed gain amplifying an attenuated signal has increasing distortion with input level.  Ever notice how most separate amplifiers sound "different" with a slight turn of the volume knob?   And many times you fight it trying to find that sweet spot where everything sounds good_ at the right volume_?  
   
  With the NFB its volume control is handled completely different.   So as standalone DAC performance of the NFB12 is average but the way it is integrated to its amp the end result is less distortion,  and without huge amount of NFB added to your music there is much less color than the typical dac+amp.


----------



## ac500

I'm not sure why this is, but I've noticed if I turn the volume knob down very near absolute 0, the left ear cuts out completely before the right ear. In other words extremely low volumes the volume becomes unbalanced, shifting the sound to the right ear only. Not a big issue because I can just switch to low gain.
   
  Also interesting is that turning the knob introduces very audible noise while I'm turning it, but that's not too unexpected I think assuming the knob is a potentiometer. The noise goes away when I stop turning it of course.


----------



## BleaK

Quote:


glenda said:


> No there  are two 4x apodizing filters locked on these wolfson DAC's,  the big expensive companies that use these in their high end gear have programmers who can unlock and give acces to these filters with the serial port (see the datasheet.)   These 4x apodizing filters are what made the wolfson famous for 24/96 hirez (no upsampling required.)
> 
> Notice that most have found that the hardware acessable 8x apodizing filters the better of the limited selection offered by AudioGD but not compatible with hirez.   The same holds true with 2x for 192k hirez and 4x 96k hirez, for hirez_ you want the software locked apodizing filters_ but it looks like Kingwa hasn't figured it out yet.      Waiting till he does out before I upgrade,  I have faith.  In the mean time the NFB-12 is an outstanding value with an excellent analog section.   If you are interested in the subject google the WM8471 datasheet, apodizing oversampling,  and arduino programming.


 

  
  This would be awsome if Kingwa figured it out and implemented in future products like NFB-12 and NFB-10SE.


----------



## glenda

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> I'm not sure why this is, but I've noticed if I turn the volume knob down very near absolute 0, the left ear cuts out completely before the right ear. In other words extremely low volumes the volume becomes unbalanced, shifting the sound to the right ear only. Not a big issue because I can just switch to low gain.
> 
> Also interesting is that turning the knob introduces very audible noise while I'm turning it, but that's not too unexpected I think assuming the knob is a potentiometer. The noise goes away when I stop turning it of course.


 


 Its typical with volume pots,  but more pronouced in this applicatio,  the main reason the 10se is a big upgrade is that the pot is replaced with ladder relayed resistors,  so near perfect LR matching across the volume range.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





glenda said:


> Come on its right on the Audio-gd website plain as day.
> 
> The least the reviewer could have down is upsampled so the right filter was being used, I think the reviewer purposely handicapped the NFB12 to prove a point about plug and play or something.   He's forgeting that the average buyer is not so inept as to make a few adjustments for their system.
> 
> ...


 
   
  If we're only talking about using the NFB12 as a standalone DAC, does the better signal-to-noise apply as well at higher volume knob levels (on the variable output where the knob actually controls the output level)?  Or are your observations above only applicable to the HP out?


----------



## Jrz

Sorry for noob question, here it comes:
   
  Which one of DT 880 I buy (250 ohm or 600 ohm), I have already ordered NFB-12?


----------



## glenda

Quote: 





captouch said:


> If we're only talking about using the NFB12 as a standalone DAC, does the better signal-to-noise apply as well at higher volume knob levels (on the variable output where the knob actually controls the output level)?  Or are your observations above only applicable to the HP out?


 

 I dind't open it but I think the headphone and and the variable preamp out are the same, the switch just directs the headphone out to the rca and viola its a preamp, they measured the same.  Its not just snr its the distortion spectra that stays amazingly constent from line level DAC out to higher power headphone out..


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





glenda said:


> I dind't open it but I think the headphone and and the variable preamp out are the same, the switch just directs the headphone out to the rca and viola its a preamp, they measured the same.  Its not just snr its the distortion spectra that stays amazingly constent from line level DAC out to higher power headphone out..


 
   
  If that's the case, then the pre-amp out would best be used in variable mode with volume knob turned near max and volume attenuated at the amp.  Fixed output is equal to volume knob at 12 o'clock, so better distortion characteristics would result near max.  Is my understanding correct?  Thanks.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





jrz said:


> Sorry for noob question, here it comes:
> 
> Which one of DT 880 I buy (250 ohm or 600 ohm), I have already ordered NFB-12?


 


  The amp inside the NFB-12 is quite robust.  So, go ahead and get that 600 Ohm beast.


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





glenda said:


> See I've been measuring the NFB12  as a standalone DAC and its distortion is relatively high,  not bad but surprisingly higher than even a decent tube dac.   But the key unique feature/design of this nfb12 is the inegration to the headphone amp and the complete absense of typical color adding negative feedback.   In other words after I was measuring the dac output I also measured the headphone out and the distortion spectra/level was the same,  _even as the volume knob (power out) was turned up _!
> 
> This is the beauty of Kingwas's analog design in that the entire system is scaled as the volume knob is turned,   so that up to a point a change in volume does not equal a change the sound quality.   Thats one of the dirty secrets about most any gear you buy,  the dac output is attenuated then the amp with its fixed gain amplifying an attenuated signal has increasing distortion with input level.  Ever notice how most separate amplifiers sound "different" with a slight turn of the volume knob?   And many times you fight it trying to find that sweet spot where everything sounds good_ at the right volume_?


 
  You can clearly hear the distortion when I run a simple 40Hz tone into my NFB-12.  There is pronounced distortion, at a level which I've never heard in other gear.  I haven't put it on a distortion meter, I don't have access to a quality device, but the distortion should not be audible like it was on my unit.  I use it in the office where I don't pay deep attention to sound, and it's certainly OK for the $, but I have to say I was disappointed to hear that kind of issue in a discrete device with value-audiophile aspirations...


----------



## turimbar1

I took a look at the inside of mine and there is no way to change the filter, I am a little disappointed, but I knew it was a work in progress and still bought it, so yeah, annoying, but I cant fault kingwa. 
   
  does anyone know what the default filter is? 
   
  edit: 2x brickwall filter? well that is just ******* great, that looked like the worst of the bunch.


----------



## eclipes

I believe its the 2x Brickwall filter.
  
  Quote: 





turimbar1 said:


> I took a look at the inside of mine and there is no way to change the filter, I am a little disappointed, but I knew it was a work in progress and still bought it, so yeah, annoying, but I cant fault kingwa.
> 
> does anyone know what the default filter is?


----------



## shadowlord

you should be able to change filters on the old unit as well.
  But it includes soldering.


----------



## turimbar1

really? the layout looks a bit different, I really dont want to go at it just based on sight.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





shadowlord said:


> you should be able to change filters on the old unit as well.
> But it includes soldering.


 

 Perhaps one time, but not back and forth among the 9 settings easily unless you rigged some external switches.  I think you have to desolder and lift some IC pins at the very least.


----------



## Ken Rosenberg

Please delete.


----------



## glenda

Quote: 





ken rosenberg said:


> Sorry for the noob question, but how would I connect the NFB-12 to a CD player?
> 
> I'm guessing I could either use the optical out, or have a dual RCA cable that terminates to one, which then connects to the coaxial output. Could someone please correct me if I'm wrong


 
   
  just plug the cdp opt-out to the NFB-12 opt-in and turn the knob to OPT.
   
    It sounds like your CDP doesn't have a coaxial out, do not do the other thing you came up with,


----------



## Ken Rosenberg

Please delete.


----------



## Tilpo

ken rosenberg said:


> Thanks, I'm still very new to this. Is there a noticeable sound quality difference between optical and coaxial?



No. There is a theoretical difference, but it should be far from audible.


----------



## tme110

It is easier to lock on to very high-res (like 24/192) with COAX but you won't notice a difference soundwise. 
   
  There would be a sound difference if you connected it from the CDP RCA outputs but the -12 doesn't have connections for that anyway. ie, it has to used as a DAC which is what you would want anyway.


----------



## ac500

When did the new version NFB12 come out, and how do I tell if I have it? I bought mine late July.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> When did the new version NFB12 come out, and how do I tell if I have it? I bought mine late July.


 


 The new iteration has the changeable filters (see pic) - just pop the lid, and have a look.


----------



## ac500

Ok I'll check when I return from my trip. Although I just remembered my NFB12 being packaged with a little zip lock bag of the black jumper things. Hopefully that's a good indication that it's the new version.
   
  What's the generally accepted best filter setting?
   
  Also I don't understand the FR graphs for each setting on Audio-gd's site. Frequency only spans from 0 to 1? What is frequency here, HZ??


----------



## eclipes

yup those spare black jumpers are for the new version. So far I've heard that the 8x minimum phase apodising is the most popular filter but you're limited only to 48khz. I personally like it a lot, great clarity, especially music dealing with guitars. But for the sake of versatility, I switched to the 4x linear phase soft knee which could support up to 24/96, sounds good, not as much clarity compared to 8x and with bit of warmth. 
  
  Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Ok I'll check when I return from my trip. Although I just remembered my NFB12 being packaged with a little zip lock bag of the black jumper things. Hopefully that's a good indication that it's the new version.
> 
> What's the generally accepted best filter setting?
> 
> Also I don't understand the FR graphs for each setting on Audio-gd's site. Frequency only spans from 0 to 1? What is frequency here, HZ??


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Ok I'll check when I return from my trip. Although I just remembered my NFB12 being packaged with a little zip lock bag of the black jumper things. Hopefully that's a good indication that it's the new version.
> 
> What's the generally accepted best filter setting?


 


 Agree with eclipes ......* from my review*:
  4X oversampling , Minimum phase 'soft-knee' filter (MPSKF) - good mix of detail and warmth
  8X oversampling , Minimum phase apodising filter (MPAF) - a lot more detail, and tightening of bass as well


----------



## ac500

Perfect! This will be interesting to try when I get a chance.
   
  I suppose with 48khz limitation I should set my sound card into that mode as well. I'm curious though what the NFB12 would do if I tried to give it 96k? 
   
  Quote: 





eclipes said:


> yup those spare black jumpers are for the new version. So far I've heard that the 8x minimum phase apodising is the most popular filter but you're limited only to 48khz. I personally like it a lot, great clarity, especially music dealing with guitars. But for the sake of versatility, I switched to the 4x linear phase soft knee which could support up to 24/96, sounds good, not as much clarity compared to 8x and with bit of warmth.


----------



## eclipes

You either hear a buzzing sound or just nothing plays.
  
  Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Perfect! This will be interesting to try when I get a chance.
> 
> I suppose with 48khz limitation I should set my sound card into that mode as well. I'm curious though what the NFB12 would do if I tried to give it 96k?


----------



## ac500

This is not important, but does anyone know how to interpret the graphs for the different filters on Audio-gd's website? I can't figure what they're supposed to represent. I only learned basic amplifier design since my education is in digital computers, not analog electronics.


----------



## captouch

Quote:


ac500 said:


> When did the new version NFB12 come out, and how do I tell if I have it? I bought mine late July.


 

 I don't think the jumpers necessarily mean that you have the digital filters, because there's a fixed/variable jumper in all units, which would be a reason for them to put in extra jumpers.
   
  You're right on the border.  I ordered mine on August 8th, and I was one of the first I believe to get the new units with adjustable filters.  I thought I recalled someone else ordering in late July who received an older unit.  But hopefully yours is a newer one.


----------



## Tilpo

captouch said:


> Quote:
> 
> I don't think the jumpers necessarily mean that you have the digital filters, because there's a fixed/variable jumper in all units, which would be a reason for them to put in extra jumpers.
> 
> You're right on the border.  I ordered mine on August 8th, and I was one of the first I believe to get the new units with adjustable filters.  I thought I recalled someone else ordering in late July who received an older unit.  But hopefully yours is a newer one.



Indeed. I have the old version, but a bag of jumpers was also included in mine.


----------



## CantScareMe

I was tidying up and there was a box under my bed, with this nfb 12 in it!
   
  Completely forgot about it. Why, I remember a few months ago after a 300hr burn in (for whatever reason) with all my headphones that I had I compared the sound of the nfb 12 to fiio e9/e7.
   
  I have never witnessed two 'different' headfi products perform so similarly SQ wise. Just to keep this post short, as I don't have a point to proove, my methods of testing are rigorous, trust me. Mathematicians OCD is the reason why!!! I could even hear a complete difference between fiio e9/e10 vs fiio e9/e7. Virtually none with the nfb12 to the e9/e7.
   
  Mine doesn't have switchable filters.
   
  All in all, it's more useful to me as a mini central heater than a dac/amp.


----------



## Tilpo

cantscareme said:


> I was tidying up and there was a box under my bed, with this nfb 12 in it!
> 
> Completely forgot about it. Why, I remember a few months ago after a 300hr burn in (for whatever reason) with all my headphones that I had I compared the sound of the nfb 12 to fiio e9/e7.
> 
> ...



A FiiO E9/E7 combo actually costs more than an NFB-12, so it's actually a good thing. 

Interesting to hear this. But in your case it might indeed not be a bad idea to just sell it.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> I was tidying up and there was a box under my bed, with this nfb 12 in it!
> 
> Completely forgot about it. Why, I remember a few months ago after a 300hr burn in (for whatever reason) with all my headphones that I had I compared the sound of the nfb 12 to fiio e9/e7.
> 
> ...


 

 Wow - just goes to show how differently people can hear.  I have the newer NFB-12, I had the E7/E9 combo for quite a while (sold it about a month ago).  I also did some extensive side by side testing.  While tonally they are similar (I found the NFB-12 both warmer and with slightly more bass presence), the biggest difference I noticed were with what I would call body or I guess dynamics.  The E7/E9 comparatively sounded a little thin - whereas the NFB-12 for me simply sounded more alive, more there.  I don't have the right technical terms for it - but after 10 days of having them side by side, I sold the E7/E9 - haven't regretted it.


----------



## Syrk

Speaking of selling it, I'm selling mine. I have a listing up, just check my posts.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





brooko said:


> Wow - just goes to show how differently people can hear.  I have the newer NFB-12, I had the E7/E9 combo for quite a while (sold it about a month ago).  I also did some extensive side by side testing.  While tonally they are similar (I found the NFB-12 both warmer and with slightly more bass presence), the biggest difference I noticed were with what I would call body or I guess dynamics.  The E7/E9 comparatively sounded a little thin - whereas the NFB-12 for me simply sounded more alive, more there.  I don't have the right technical terms for it - but after 10 days of having them side by side, I sold the E7/E9 - haven't regretted it.


 


  I think the issue is the default filter for the NFB-12 being a bit too warm and not terribly detailed.  That poster has the one without the user changeable filters as was mine when I had it.


----------



## ac500

Aww I have the old version without filters D:


----------



## CantScareMe

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> A FiiO E9/E7 combo actually costs more than an NFB-12, so it's actually a good thing.
> Interesting to hear this. But in your case it might indeed not be a bad idea to just sell it.


 

 Here the nfb is around £50 more than the fiio's.(original prices)
   
  Actually, the second best thing is its function as a mini heater. The first is the multitude of connection options. My tv has optical audio out so there's a use for it there someday. 
   
  But yea, the fact that the've released a new version with adjustable sq really sucks for those who've got the old one. Especially considering how long people had to wait for this thing. But that's fine- as one poster put it- 'we knew we bought a work in progress'


----------



## glenda

You guys know that you can change the filters on the "old" version if you aren't afraid to lift pins , cut traces, and use jumper wires.  Just follow the datasheet.


----------



## ac500

What do you mean "lift pins and cut traces", does this require soldering?


----------



## Tilpo

ac500 said:


> What do you mean "lift pins and cut traces", does this require soldering?



Yes


----------



## CantScareMe

Quote: 





glenda said:


> You guys know that you can change the filters on the "old" version if you aren't afraid to lift pins , cut traces, and use jumper wires.  Just follow the datasheet.


 


  I'm okay thank you....!.


----------



## captouch

Lifting pins is pretty delicate work I would think.  The DAC IC is probably surface mount soldered and the pin pitch is probably pretty tight.  So desoldering and lifting these pins is precision work, isn't it?  Granted, I'm a beginner, but I did a Crack kit and Speedball upgrade and those were fine/easy enough, but I wouldn't dare to attempt to desolder and lift the DAC pins.  You fry a resistor, fine, get a repacement.  But you damage the DAC with too much heat or lift a pin right off the package, that's big trouble.
   
  So yes, it can be done and probably trivially by a electronic technician, but for the average joe, it's risky in my eyes.  Just wanted to put that out there so people know to be careful.


----------



## Dariuz

Hey, just got my NFB-12 the other day and decided I want to try out the different filters. I don't want to break anything and there are no real instructions for how to open it up to change them, can someone please explain the exact process to me in consideration of the fact I'm even worried I'll break it by unscrewing the top and am a complete D.I.Y N00b XD


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





dariuz said:


> Hey, just got my NFB-12 the other day and decided I want to try out the different filters. I don't want to break anything and there are no real instructions for how to open it up to change them, can someone please explain the exact process to me in consideration of the fact I'm even worried I'll break it by unscrewing the top and am a complete D.I.Y N00picture plug unitnscrew all the screws on top of unit.  Lift off cover.  Based on website picture


 
   
  Unplug unit or at least power down.  If unit was just on, I'd wait a minute or two.  Unscrew all screws on top of unit and remove top cover.  Use picture on website to get orientation correct for setting pins - there are a couple of large capacitors nearby you can use as a reference IIRC.
   
  Remove and replace jumpers using needlenose pliers or fingers.  Power back up.  Play with settings, just power down before removing and replacing jumpers and double check jumper locations and orientation.  When you find one you like best and don't anticipate more changes in near future, screw cover back on.


----------



## Dariuz

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Unplug unit or at least power down.  If unit was just on, I'd wait a minute or two.  Unscrew all screws on top of unit and remove top cover.  Use picture on website to get orientation correct for setting pins - there are a couple of large capacitors nearby you can use as a reference IIRC.
> 
> Remove and replace jumpers using needlenose pliers or fingers.  Power back up.  Play with settings, just power down before removing and replacing jumpers and double check jumper locations and orientation.  When you find one you like best and don't anticipate more changes in near future, screw cover back on.


 
  Thanks! Argghhh sounds so good on oversampling x8 minimum phase apodising, gonna leave it here before I manage to bend a pin or something lol


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Aww I have the old version without filters D:


 
   
   
  The NFB-10SE, which I suspect is more resolving than the NFB-12, utilises the same filters and can be changed on the fly (making direct comparisons easier). If my experience with the NFB-10SE is anything to go by, the differences between WM8471 filters (heard through a balanced LCD-2) are incredibly subtle.
   
  The feature is not an EQ or a giant killer switch. I doubt changing filters will magically transform the NFB-12 if you find its base signature somewhat lacking.


----------



## ac500

I've been considering buying an NFB-10SE except many people complain about the NFB12 being "not good, just okay", makes me doubt Audio-gd a little. How does the NFB-10SE compare with true high end dacs and amps, with something like an LCD2 or HD800?
   
  I ask because I intend to some day get an LCD2 or HD800, and somewhere along the way upgrading to an NFB10SE is one step in that direction... IF it's a "good" or "excellent" high end DAC/amp.


----------



## olor1n

The NFB-10SE is excellent for the LCD-2 in either single ended or balanced mode. There are quite a few posts in the 10SE thread expressing similar findings. The smaller number who've heard the HD800 through it have also reported good results.
   
  I found the 10SE's amp section in single ended mode to have as much grunt and authority in driving the LCD-2 as the Lyr, snappier and without the lower frequency smear of the Schiit. Balanced mode elevates it further.
   
  I regretfully had to let it go because it did not synergise as well with the HD650 as my previous setup. I found it a bit dry and sterile with certain material, making the upper midrange sound coarse and hollow at times. Non of the filters alleviated this issue for me.
   
  edit: I can't answer how well it compares to higher end components. I think any assessment needs to be tempered with the fact the 10SE (like the NFB-12) is very affordable and packs many features not found elsewhere in the price range. On these terms it's outstanding IMO, and I suspect some expense may be required to find a component with justifiable improvements in sound quality that also matches the feature set.


----------



## tme110

your concerned about AGD because of a couple poeple's coments about a $200 combined amp/dac when most of the comments are very favorable to this $200 component?  The -12 is a good product and probably the best by far in it's price range esp when you consider all the input options.  Now the -10 is better than the -12 in every possible way and worth probably twice what it costs.


----------



## ac500

Quote: 





olor1n said:


> The NFB-10SE is excellent for the LCD-2 in either single ended or balanced mode. There are quite a few posts in the 10SE thread expressing similar findings. The smaller number who've heard the HD800 through it have also reported good results.
> 
> I found the 10SE's amp section in single ended mode to have as much grunt and authority in driving the LCD-2 as the Lyr, snappier and without the lower frequency smear of the Schiit. Balanced mode elevates it further.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sounds great, thanks! Even if it doesn't synergize spectacularly with my HD650s, I'll put the NFB10SE (or later Audio-gd products) on my list of to-buy items in the future. It will lead my planned upgrade path to the HD800, later when money becomes more comfortable . Also it sounds like the DAC is good enough that if I wanted, I could later add a ultra-high-end amp as well and the NFB10SE DAC would do it justice?


----------



## olor1n

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *ac500* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [...]
> 
> Sounds great, thanks! Even if it doesn't synergize spectacularly with my HD650s, I'll put the NFB10SE (or later Audio-gd products) on my list of to-buy items in the future. It will lead my planned upgrade path to the HD800, later when money becomes more comfortable . Also it sounds like the DAC is good enough that if I wanted, I could later add a ultra-high-end amp as well and the NFB10SE DAC would do it justice?


 
   

 I think the 10SE's analogue section is its trump card. The dac is fine but I felt it may have been the bottleneck in the system for me. If there was a way to isolate that amp section and feed it a different source I would have kept the unit.


----------



## ac500

That's interesting. Hmm. Well I guess I'll wait until I get the HD800s then research dacs/amps with the NFB12se as one option.


----------



## eclipes

cant really compare.. but for around 200$ nothing really beats the nfb-12, all inputs, filter changing, great DAC and surprising good amp too. I wasn't expecting much from amp, bought it as a dedicated DAC but the amp was more than decent. Pretty well worth imo.


----------



## CantScareMe

Im not sure about pricing elsewhere,
   
  But the fiio e9/e10 is for £130 here, with the nfb 12 at £190.
   
  The fiio e9/e10 beats the nfb (stock filter) in SQ comfortably. Yes, comfortably, in my opinion.
   
  Okay, you don't have optical and coax features, but you do have a cute ultra compact usb dac/amp in the e10- that smashes to bits the udac2. And the e9/10 occupies a much smaller footprint on my desk than the nfb12. 
   
  Anyway.


----------



## Brooko

Well I'm in Eclipes camp - and I owned the E7+E9 combo.  Don't get me wrong - the Fiios are good and I'd have been quite happy with them (not knowing any better) if I didn't get the NFB-12.  I suspect the main difference is in the DAC.  For my ears, the NFB-12 is just a lot more dynamic and full bodied - while the E7 and E9 were comparatively thinner sounding.  Just my opinion - YMMV.


----------



## glenda

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Lifting pins is pretty delicate work I would think.  The DAC IC is probably surface mount soldered and the pin pitch is probably pretty tight.  So desoldering and lifting these pins is precision work, isn't it?  Granted, I'm a beginner, but I did a Crack kit and Speedball upgrade and those were fine/easy enough, but I wouldn't dare to attempt to desolder and lift the DAC pins.  You fry a resistor, fine, get a repacement.  But you damage the DAC with too much heat or lift a pin right off the package, that's big trouble.
> 
> So yes, it can be done and probably trivially by a electronic technician, but for the average joe, it's risky in my eyes.  Just wanted to put that out there so people know to be careful.


 


 True,  I guess I shouldn't have assume that if one makes a mistake that a $200 replace is no biggy. All these thing even the $10k dac are still just toys for our recreation
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But lifting the pins isn't that bad,  once you get a fine piano or flouro strand threaded under the pin (use a magnifying glass and surgical tweezers) you just apply a little flux and a smd tip iron for a second as you pull up with the thread/wire.  I've done a few DF1704 filters this way to get it to soft filter mode.   So the risk really isn't terrible,  get the thread threaded under the pin (you can't break anything doing that) then you are home free.
   
  I haven't looked at it closely but do plan on making my non-jumpered nfb12 run at 4x min phase.  I want to incorporate a switch to go to the 4x apodizing.   I hope to find time one day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But for those of us with the no jumper version we can still use the sox upsampling,   which pretty much takes the filter out of the equation for rbcd (44.1khz).   I think it is a must do unless you break out the soldering station.
   
  The non-jumpered unit should have come with a sticker on it that said _"must upsample non-hirez at least 2x for proper results_".
   
  Thats why I hate these comparisons without mentioning upsampling or whch filter is being used.  The stock setting is for hirez sampling rate,  flat out no argument there.


----------



## ac500

_> The non-jumpered unit should have come with a sticker on it that said "must upsample non-hirez at least 2x for proper results"._
   
  I'm always doing that... it doesn't sound nearly as good if you don't. 
   
  Does anyone know what USB defaults to? I hope it does 24/96 automatically (although I usually use optical anyway)


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> _> The non-jumpered unit should have come with a sticker on it that said "must upsample non-hirez at least 2x for proper results"._
> 
> I'm always doing that... it doesn't sound nearly as good if you don't.
> 
> Does anyone know what USB defaults to? I hope it does 24/96 automatically (although I usually use optical anyway)


 
   
  The USB input is capable of 24/96.  It depends on what your PC outputs(you can change it in sound settings or foobar).


----------



## Tilpo

digital-pride said:


> The USB input is capable of 24/96.  It depends on what your PC outputs(you can change it in sound settings or foobar).



No. If you output 24/96 into foobar2000 without changing Windows settings to 24/96 as well, it will be down sampled. 

You have to use a resampler DSP in foobar2000 as well as changing the Windows settings.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Hmm, what about a WASAPI enabled Foobar?  I think it's able to bypass the windows mixer completely if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## eclipes

i just found out that using the SOX resampler sounds better than the PPHS resampler but it could be placebo haha. Anyone here using SOX with the unit?


----------



## Brooko

Yep - used sox from day one.  Mines on a linux box though - running foobar via wine with wasapi.


----------



## Tilpo

Is it even possible for there to be an audible difference between resamplers? I read in the Hydrogen Audio thread of the PPHS resampler that it's completely transparent. 

So either SOX is messing something up pretty badly, or it's nothing more than a placebo. 
What's also possible, but unlikely, is that somehow SOX is bypassing the Windows mixer, while PPHS is not. This could cause PPHS to be down sampled again if settings are not adjusted properly. (assuming WASAPI/ASAPI are not used, and the Windows mixer is set to 16/44.1 instead of 24/96)

I personally don't use WASAPI as I can't stand having all other sounds muted. Additionally I remain unable to hear a difference in SQ in any case.


----------



## eclipes

hey Brooko, what are your settings on Sox then?
  
  Quote: 





brooko said:


> Yep - used sox from day one.  Mines on a linux box though - running foobar via wine with wasapi.


----------



## Brooko

Am at work at the moment - will have a look when I get home tonight.


----------



## Jupe

Wow, seems like I've missed quite a bit since my last visit...
   
  I've had the NFB-12 for almost a year now, having been among the first to get my hands on it. Granted, this was my first DAC/amp, so I've had nothing to really compare it to (aside from brief listenings to other people's gear, but I never had a side-by-side audition), but it completely satisfied me. I would never have noticed anything 'off' or fiddled with any filters had I not come back to this thread.
   
  I'm almost ready for an upgrade to my phones--a modest pair of M50s--and already you folk have me trying to budget for an upgraded DAC as well!


----------



## Tilpo

jupe said:


> I'm almost ready for an upgrade to my phones--a modest pair of M50s--and already you folk have me trying to budget for an upgraded DAC as well!



We shall hunt you to the depths of the underworld if you take that second mortgage to buy new gear!


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> hey Brooko, what are your settings on Sox then?


 

 Foobar output (WASAPI)
   
  DSP only has one active DSP - SoX:
   - target sample rate 96000 Hz
   - quality 'Best'
   - Passband 95%
   - Phase response 50%
   
  NFB-12 using 4 x oversampling minimum phase softknee.
   
  PC > COAX > NFB-12 > HD600


----------



## soneedu

i got my NFB-12 today ,it is a hard trip to get it.  Warm burning now, i should learn the setting of foobar. hope my HD555 can provide good sound during it's end life.


----------



## eclipes

okay thanks Brooko, that is the exact same settings im using right now with the same filter as well. Sounds quite nice. 
  
  Quote: 





brooko said:


> Foobar output (WASAPI)
> 
> DSP only has one active DSP - SoX:
> - target sample rate 96000 Hz
> ...


----------



## eclipes

enjoy, put in at least 100 hours on it, but it sounds pretty good already right out of the box. Let us know what you think with the HD555 after.
  
  Quote: 





soneedu said:


> i got my NFB-12 today ,it is a hard trip to get it.  Warm burning now, i should learn the setting of foobar. hope my HD555 can provide good sound during it's end life.


----------



## soneedu

tonight, i give some my impression, enjoy feeling sound become more and more musical, enjoy the time to burn-in it, i brought NFB-12 to the office,warm daytime, and brought to apartment, warm whole night.
   
  these days, i did three thing and got so much funny.
  (1)
   
 Foobar output (WASAPI)
  
 DSP only has one active DSP - SoX:
  - target sample rate 96000 Hz
  - quality 'Best'
  - Passband 95%
  - Phase response 50%
  
 NFB-12 using 4 x oversampling minimum phase softknee.
  
 PC > USB > NFB-12 >HD555
  (2) change digital filter  to 4 x oversample minimum phase softknee，  2x oversample linear default
  (3) Mod HD555 to HD595, say goodbye to foam inside the headphone box
   
  now, just passed 90 hrs, more detail ,good soundstage, musical make me happy.  sorry for my poor English. i do not know how to describe the feeling, just i got more relax when listened Jazz, not only just detail and clear, it is easy to get resonance with singer and player.
   
  i will keep warm it, hope all of you enjoy music and more happy.
  Merry Christmas !


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





soneedu said:


> tonight, i give some my impression, enjoy feeling sound become more and more musical, enjoy the time to burn-in it, i brought NFB-12 to the office,warm daytime, and brought to apartment, warm whole night.
> 
> these days, i did three thing and got so much funny.
> (1)
> ...


 
   
  Nice impressions!  I'll hopefully be enjoy it as much you are when I get mine tomorrow(second time around).


----------



## eclipes

yup glad you're enjoying it. These are the exact same settings I have my nfb-12 and foobar configured to. Really loving mine.
  
  Quote: 





soneedu said:


> tonight, i give some my impression, enjoy feeling sound become more and more musical, enjoy the time to burn-in it, i brought NFB-12 to the office,warm daytime, and brought to apartment, warm whole night.
> 
> these days, i did three thing and got so much funny.
> (1)
> ...


----------



## Maxtcc

So I have received my NFB-12 from audio-gd,
  in a record time for shipment of goods from HK,
  2days, 48 from door to door. 
  Wow, I have it for Christmas! 
  NOw do I wrap it up as a present or plug it in and enjoy?
   
  Unboxed it of course to handle the new hefty feel of a new electronic toy.
  Uhm, does anyone know what the extra LED's in the cable bag are for?
  I got three loose LED's , six black jumpers, and 3 white 4" jumper cables
  REALLY does anyone know what these are for?
   
  Now I think I will wrap it up and dream, tomorrow is christmas and I got a new toy dreams here I come.


----------



## JereHakala

Just ordered and paid mine, so excited, my first proper dac (and amp for that matter).
  I hope it wont take long, because of Christmas and all.
   
  I'm using 80 ohm DT 770 pros currently, any suggestions how I should set the oversampling thingie?
  I'll be reading thru this thread, pretty sure this has been asked before .


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





jerehakala said:


> Just ordered and paid mine, so excited, my first proper dac (and amp for that matter).
> I hope it wont take long, because of Christmas and all.
> 
> I'm using 80 ohm DT 770 pros currently, any suggestions how I should set the oversampling thingie?
> I'll be reading thru this thread, pretty sure this has been asked before .


 


 Congrats on your purchase!  A few recomended filter settings are:
   
  4X oversampling , Minimum phase 'soft-knee' filter (MPSKF) - good mix of detail and warmth
  8X oversampling , Minimum phase apodising filter (MPAF) - a lot more detail, and tightening of bass as well (from Brooko's review).


----------



## genclaymore

I been thinking about this amp besides others I had my eye on, But I been wondering, how do it does with the DT880 pro250. Also when I looked at the chart, when some of you mention your using 8X oversampling , Minimum phase apodising filter. I thought it limit the output to 48khz, but I see some of you using it with 96khz flacs. Or am I misunderstanding how it works. The only thing that really making the choice hard for me. When I do get enough for it, audio-GD uses DHL for shipping and I dislike DHL.  If They used fedex or ups for international shipping. I would jump on it when I save up enough money.


----------



## eclipes

Not sure how it performs with Dt880 but even if its 300ohms, it can drive them pretty loud. The 8X minimum phase apodising filter does limit to 48khz but there are 9 different filters in total. There are 2X, 4X and 8X filters. People like myself who are able to play 96khz are using the 4X filters. People who use 2X can even play up to 192khz. So it depends on your preferences, your music library and the sound you prefer. Not sure why you don't like DHL but I love them, its ULTRA fast. Im talking about 2 days delivery to your door which is very impressive. I personally like fedex too but i'm been hit with fees and charges a few times. UPS is just plain crap, worst service, known for losing and damaging packages and with the highest fees at the door. This could be just me tho, since i'm in Canada, its hard getting stuff here without paying full premium. 
  Overall, the NFB-12 is a great unit for its price, fully loaded and sounds good. 
   
  Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I been thinking about this amp besides others I had my eye on, But I been wondering, how do it does with the DT880 pro250. Also when I looked at the chart, when some of you mention your using 8X oversampling , Minimum phase apodising filter. I thought it limit the output to 48khz, but I see some of you using it with 96khz flacs. Or am I misunderstanding how it works. The only thing that really making the choice hard for me. When I do get enough for it, audio-GD uses DHL for shipping and I dislike DHL.  If They used fedex or ups for international shipping. I would jump on it when I save up enough money.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





maxtcc said:


> Unboxed it of course to handle the new hefty feel of a new electronic toy.  Uhm, does anyone know what the extra LED's in the cable bag are for?
> I got three loose LED's , six black jumpers, and 3 white 4" jumper cables
> REALLY does anyone know what these are for?


 
   
  Funny stuff. When I received my NFB-12, the package had about a half-inch layer of jumpers on the bottom. There must have been several hundred of them. I examined the amp pretty closely and determined that no jumpers had lodged in inappropriate places and moved on.


----------



## _Spanky_

Frankly, I'm disappointed to learn that the NFB-12 was "in progress" when I bought it. Opened mine up and there's no jumpers for the digital filter. Anyone know if it can be changed without the jumpers?
   
  Now my disappointment has turned somewhat hostile. I just spotted a TL072I opamp in my NFB-12. Hard to trace the PCB but it looks like it could just be for the headphone section. But why such an old opamp, especially when the rest of the analog stage is discrete?
   
  ... and a 2nd TL072I has shown up. Anyone else curious as to why this 30 year old opamp is in these units? I'm going to be e-mailing Kingwa.
   
   
   
  *EDIT*
  It is possible to change the digital filter on the older NFB-12's. Here's what Kingwa said about it:
This is maybe difficult, you can try but maybe shatter the gear.
 See the picture, cut two pins wires every WM8741.
 Connect to a 3 stage switch,  can perform  3 station, 1, connect to GND, 2, connect to nothing, 3 connect to +3.3V.
 and the picture: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/464376/head-fi/nfb-12_df.jpg


----------



## Tilpo

_spanky_ said:


> Frankly, I'm disappointed to learn that the NFB-12 was "in progress" when I bought it. Opened mine up and there's no jumpers for the digital filter. Anyone know if it can be changed without the jumpers?
> 
> Now my disappointment has turned somewhat hostile. I just spotted a TL072I opamp in my NFB-12. Hard to trace the PCB but it looks like it could just be for the headphone section. But why such an old opamp, especially when the rest of the analog stage is discrete?
> 
> ...



It could be possible to change to filters without the jumpers, but I'd heavily advise against it if you don't both know exactly what your doing and have a lot of experience with electronics. It doesn't seem like the easiest thing to do, and making a mistake can damage the chip.


----------



## genclaymore

I just notice some one mentioning it puts out alot of heat, the NFB-12. Sadly that changed my mind on it.My room already get hot like I have a space heater running, when I don't. To the point I have to either open a window and let freezing cold air in. Or turn on a house fan to High.But then I was just gonna plug my X-Fi HD Pci-e To it Thur Tos-link , I would had never used the dac in the NFB-12. Since I prolly just need a amp, I prolly just gonna grab a Matrix M-stage for that.
  Quote: 





eclipes said:


> Not sure how it performs with Dt880 but even if its 300ohms, it can drive them pretty loud. The 8X minimum phase apodising filter does limit to 48khz but there are 9 different filters in total. There are 2X, 4X and 8X filters. People like myself who are able to play 96khz are using the 4X filters. People who use 2X can even play up to 192khz. So it depends on your preferences, your music library and the sound you prefer. Not sure why you don't like DHL but I love them, its ULTRA fast. Im talking about 2 days delivery to your door which is very impressive. I personally like fedex too but i'm been hit with fees and charges a few times. UPS is just plain crap, worst service, known for losing and damaging packages and with the highest fees at the door. This could be just me tho, since i'm in Canada, its hard getting stuff here without paying full premium.
> Overall, the NFB-12 is a great unit for its price, fully loaded and sounds good.


 
  UPS never gave me issue with packages, they always found my house, even when I was staying at a apt the first time. Stay there til they found a way inside it.  Even now they have no problems with finding this apt.  I stop trusting Fed ex since their driver once dropped off my motherboard from rma to the wrong house. Which was a house away. I was lucky that guy bought me my motherboard. I mostly don't trust DHL as they hand the package off to postal service which I don't trust with packages, just mail.


----------



## JereHakala

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I been thinking about this amp besides others I had my eye on, But I been wondering, how do it does with the DT880 pro250. Also when I looked at the chart, when some of you mention your using 8X oversampling , Minimum phase apodising filter. I thought it limit the output to 48khz, but I see some of you using it with 96khz flacs. Or am I misunderstanding how it works. The only thing that really making the choice hard for me. When I do get enough for it, audio-GD uses DHL for shipping and I dislike DHL.  If They used fedex or ups for international shipping. I would jump on it when I save up enough money.


 


  They sent mine by EMS, I live in Finland.
  Hopefully it wont take a month arrive.


----------



## FauDrei

_spanky_ said:


> Now my disappointment has turned somewhat hostile. I just spotted a TL072I opamp in my NFB-12. Hard to trace the PCB but it looks like it could just be for the headphone section. But why such an old opamp, especially when the rest of the analog stage is discrete?
> ... and a 2nd TL072I has shown up. Anyone else curious as to why this 30 year old opamp is in these units?


 
   
  Do not get irked so easely.
   
  Beside input stages in some of their low-end gear, A-GD use opamps as DC servos. Not many DC servo implementations in NFB-12 price range - you will usually find a DC blocking caps in audio signal path on other gear.


----------



## Maxtcc

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I just notice some one mentioning it puts out alot of heat, the NFB-12. Sadly that changed my mind on it.My room already get hot like I have a space heater running, when I don't. To the point I have to either open a window and let freezing cold air in. Or turn on a house fan to High.


 


  Sorry, I didn't catch who said it runs hot but I have had mine on for three days straight and it isn't even warm. Well okay you can feel a slight difference from the room temperature, but it is by no means even close to hot. The NFB-12 is becoming a sweeter unit by the hour, mastering all of the kinds of music I have from electronic to soul, thrash and symphony. I do not think that I will even bother with any of the filters on this thing as the sound it provides is so neutral and full ranged with my 325's.
   
  DHL , well it is hit and miss in Canada if they hit you with lots of extra fees, (especially that brokerage fee of $45 I have gotten sometimes. But audio-gd lists the parcel as audio sample parts with a $50 value and I paid the $2.50 GST with $7 handling charge. They were here in 48 hrs door to door. It is FEDEX which I scream about they always overcharge and added fees, If I have no choice in shipping something and would be forced to FEDEX then I always cancel the order.
   
  The NFB-12 will have absolutely no problem driving any 250-300 ohm headphones, no worries there.
   
  Did anyone else get the 5% off right now for this unit?


----------



## eclipes

yeah it is a hit or miss for Canadian Buyers. Luckily DHL was fairly good for all my purchases from China. Fedex and UPS depends on how nice the seller is willing to cope with the system. NFB-12 doesn't even come close to be a mini heater, its warm and i've had it on for almost a week and the temperature was still reasonably warm but never HOT. Mini Heaters are used to describe tube amps in my situation, those are the heating units, best for the winter times.
  
  Quote: 





maxtcc said:


> Sorry, I didn't catch who said it runs hot but I have had mine on for three days straight and it isn't even warm. Well okay you can feel a slight difference from the room temperature, but it is by no means even close to hot. The NFB-12 is becoming a sweeter unit by the hour, mastering all of the kinds of music I have from electronic to soul, thrash and symphony. I do not think that I will even bother with any of the filters on this thing as the sound it provides is so neutral and full ranged with my 325's.
> 
> DHL , well it is hit and miss in Canada if they hit you with lots of extra fees, (especially that brokerage fee of $45 I have gotten sometimes. But audio-gd lists the parcel as audio sample parts with a $50 value and I paid the $2.50 GST with $7 handling charge. They were here in 48 hrs door to door. It is FEDEX which I scream about they always overcharge and added fees, If I have no choice in shipping something and would be forced to FEDEX then I always cancel the order.
> 
> ...


----------



## ac500

The NFB12 is warm to the touch for sure but certainly not hot. I can't imagine most high end units being much colder - audiophile equipment isn't exactly energy efficiency oriented.


----------



## _Spanky_

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Do not get irked so easely.
> 
> Beside input stages in some of their low-end gear, A-GD use opamps as DC servos. Not many DC servo implementations in NFB-12 price range - you will usually find a DC blocking caps in audio signal path on other gear.


 

 Aren't servos motors? I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't understand circuits very good. I've asked Kingwa about them but haven't received a reply on them. Do you know what they're doing?
   


  Quote: 





maxtcc said:


> Sorry, I didn't catch who said it runs hot but I have had mine on for three days straight and it isn't even warm. Well okay you can feel a slight difference from the room temperature, but it is by no means even close to hot.


 

 Mine runs hot to the touch at the back left corner, above the PSU. Personally, I'm not worried about it. I've had mine 6 months and it's operation hasn't changed one bit. The case is aluminum as well so it will disperse heat pretty good. I've had mine on for an hour and it's cool to the touch but I do remember there's times that I'll touch it and it's considerably warm. To be fair though, mine sits on a power amplifier.


----------



## tme110

Anyone whos been following AGD for more than a month should know that the gear is frequently updated.  It happens all the time.  It has nothing to do with a 'work in progress' it's the work of an engineer always trying to make things better.  I have  2 AGD pieces now that don't have changeable filters where newer equipment does but I'm not too worried about it.  I wish he'd stop changing form factors all the time and making some of the larger changes but it has to be better than the gear that never changes for years on end.


----------



## Tilpo

I guess every engineer is different. Some are feverishly working for multiple years to make one product perfect, falling behind the rest of the industry in the process. 
While AGD's products are far from perfect, they do try to stay on top of the market by frequently producing new stuff. The disadvantage could be that people stop buying stuff from AGD as they new a new and better version is always around the corner.


----------



## Kingwa

I don't think any one or company can design a perfect products in world.
  If Apple never have the 286, maybe now we can not see the Macbook  and the Ipad.
  Does anyone can say the newest Macbook or Ipad 2 is perfect? don't need upgrade?
  I bet they will be upgrade in 2012.
   
  The NFB-12 had release more than 1 year, there is no main upgrade, and we can't have the importand upgrade , in this year we only slight change the layout, allow users select the filter setting based on a lot users advice.
   
  If you looking our products, a lot of them have not upgrade some years. Like the Phoenix, near 3 years, the C series preamps, power amps,  they are design since 2006 and to now without a important upgrade.


----------



## ac500

There's a whole science to release cycles I think, and Apple most certainly does it. They release products like the iPhone / iPad etc. in intervals in such a way that consumers will always want to buy the "latest and greatest", but without intervals being too close together that people don't want to upgrade or feel hopelessly caught upgrading.


----------



## _Spanky_

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I guess every engineer is different. Some are feverishly working for multiple years to make one product perfect, falling behind the rest of the industry in the process.
> While AGD's products are far from perfect, they do try to stay on top of the market by frequently producing new stuff. The disadvantage could be that people stop buying stuff from AGD as they new a new and better version is always around the corner.


 


  I totally understand that a company can't stand still, especially one that designs products. I guess I find it irritating that there was no mention of changes to come. I think it would be nice for Audio-GD to have a blog that could keep people up to date as far as product stock, upcoming products, potential upcoming changes, etc. I remember seeing the digital filter info added to the NFB-12 page not that long after I bought mine. Had I known that feature was coming, I *would have waited*. Hell, I *would have paid more*.
   
  Bottom line is, I'm totally happy with my NFB-12. But I still think the website and it's information could be a LOT better as far as organization, layout and the product info.


----------



## JereHakala

Sort of unrelated question, but does anyone have experience with EMS (Express mail service)
   
  My package hasn't moved in 3 days now, it's a NFB-12 hmm.
   
  http://i.imgur.com/XJXja.jpg
   
  Does this site (ems-tracking.net) only track inside china or something?
  I guess it could be due to new year or something, meh.


----------



## glenda

Quote: 





_spanky_ said:


> I totally understand that a company can't stand still, especially one that designs products. I guess I find it irritating that there was no mention of changes to come. I think it would be nice for Audio-GD to have a blog that could keep people up to date as far as product stock, upcoming products, potential upcoming changes, etc. I remember seeing the digital filter info added to the NFB-12 page not that long after I bought mine. Had I known that feature was coming, I *would have waited*. Hell, I *would have paid more*.
> 
> Bottom line is, I'm totally happy with my NFB-12. But I still think the website and it's information could be a LOT better as far as organization, layout and the product info.


 


 I am a huge fan of the quality of Audi-gd products but agree on this one,  I got burnt buying a used NFB12 not knowing that changng filters requires smd work rather than jumpers,  its not a huge deal but when two totally different products are selling on the market with the same name it is not good,   there should be a revB or NFB12.1 or something to identify. There isn't even any small print anywhere on the Audiogd site. I'm not terribly pissed as I'll end up stripping this thing and making it a hifidino controlled lundahl output DAC anyway,  but for most folks I would like to see a "used buyer's should know ..." with the info plastered to the front page of this thread and on the Audiogd site.  Its just good business practice.


----------



## eclipes

When i ordered mine, they didn't right away either, I assume they were building it once they got my order. It took around 4 days to build and 2 days to deliver. Someone will send you an email saying the item has been shipped. If its already been shipped, then i guess its normal because its holidays right now.
  
  Quote: 





jerehakala said:


> Sort of unrelated question, but does anyone have experience with EMS (Express mail service)
> 
> My package hasn't moved in 3 days now, it's a NFB-12 hmm.
> 
> ...


----------



## eclipes

You should've made sure with the seller, but based on good practice the seller should have informed you about if they were selling the old or new model.
  
  Quote: 





glenda said:


> I am a huge fan of the quality of Audi-gd products but agree on this one,  I got burnt buying a used NFB12 not knowing that changng filters requires smd work rather than jumpers,  its not a huge deal but when two totally different products are selling on the market with the same name it is not good,   there should be a revB or NFB12.1 or something to identify. There isn't even any small print anywhere on the Audiogd site. I'm not terribly pissed as I'll end up stripping this thing and making it a hifidino controlled lundahl output DAC anyway,  but for most folks I would like to see a "used buyer's should know ..." with the info plastered to the front page of this thread and on the Audiogd site.  Its just good business practice.


----------



## CantScareMe

Any opposition against audio gd's mess up here is opposed by the statement 'Can't get anything better for near the price. Still brilliant bang for your buck'
   
  Well, that simply isn't true.


----------



## Maxtcc

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> Any opposition against audio gd's mess up here is opposed .....


 


  Please explain this statement, it is confusing with a triple negative. 
  Also I do not know to what "mess up" you are referring to.
   
  As to  your statement  " Well, that simply isn't true"....well, that simply isn't true, being that the statement 'Can't get anything better for near the price. Still brilliant bang for your buck' is a subjective opinion, by whom it is not quoted.
  Perhaps you have a differing opinion on what is a 'Better bang for your buck', in which case we would all enjoy hearing what you think is, and therein we might all consider it in our future purchases. 
   
  Sorry, for the criticism, I am not trying to flame you. 
  I am just confused on why you would publish  your thoughts in this manner, and in such a confusing way.


----------



## CantScareMe

mess up:
   
  Releasing two different products under the exact same name. It's like shure release the se530, and a few months down the line they decide to make this thing _evolve _into what the current se535 is BUT don't tell their customers and call it and sell it as the original se530.
   
  This is a genuine massive mistake. I've never heard of another company do it for another product ever in my life. It must be just a fundamental law really. If you can't see this, then well i'm not sure what to say. 
   
   
  Putting cutomizable filters in their product is a Huge change from the original, especially if we put this thing into context and remember what were dealing with- 'audiophile' amps and dacs.


----------



## Maxtcc

Thank you.
  Now I understand what it is that you were trying to say. 
  Definitely, I agree with you on this, even a version number would have been helpful. But in many important ways it ought to have had a new designation I think. Perhaps NFB-12 Pro, or NFB-12 adjustable.
  In many ways I think audio-gd should consider having, or allowing someone more familiar with the English language to edit their product copy and website information. There a few times when it is unclear what it is that Kingwa is attempting to say. 
  I believe that there are even some sales which are not completed due to this inadequacy of the written english.
  Heck, I would gladly do it for them, if asked.


----------



## dwinnert

Their products are so cost effective......just deal with it, or move on. Perfection doesn't come cheap....if at all.


----------



## Maxtcc

Dwinnert : I believe this to be an open forum, and in this thread, to be a discussion of the NFB-12
  for your information here is a definition of a forum.
   
forum |ˈfôrəm|noun ( pl. forums )1 a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged:_ it will be a forum for consumers to exchange their views_.
  I for one love the cost effectiveness of their products, and am currently very much enjoying the NFB-12.
  I like there product so much I take the time and effort to help others with a question or concern or opinion of the device, and even am offering my services to help them do better in sales.
  Do you own or are you considering the purchase of the NFB-12?
  Do you have a question or concern so regarding this unit?
  But, If you are frustrated with this discussion, then take your own advice and move on, or simply not read any further posts.


----------



## CantScareMe

Exactly.
   
  It's ridiculous- 'Don't complain about any amp/dac under £200. It's just so dirt cheap man!' I spend +£200 on iem's I don't even use without  realising, but that's not the point here.
   
  I don't care if the product was a fiver, if something goes against the principles of what form an honest seller, then i'll complain about it, especially if this seller is reputable and known. I bought a genuine mobile phone cable for £1.50, but it came as clearly faulty. I gave it back (with non refundable postage of around £1.50) to the seller as I simply don't like to be ripped off.
   
  My reasoning was: 
   
  a) If I kept it I would have technically have been ripped off.
   
  b) If I sent it back I would at least eat into the sellers time, for they want to avoid negative feedback. This repays me. In fact they understood my reasons and thanked me for giving them a chance to improve their services.


----------



## genclaymore

Do the NFB-12 support bit-match playback?


----------



## dwinnert

Quote: 





maxtcc said:


> Dwinnert : I believe this to be an open forum, and in this thread, to be a discussion of the NFB-12
> for your information here is a definition of a forum.
> 
> forum |ˈfôrəm|noun ( pl. forums )1 a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged:_ it will be a forum for consumers to exchange their views_.
> ...


 

 You should take your own advise before posting this......I was just posting my opinion, which is what a forum is for.
   
  And yes, I do own an NFB-12.....


----------



## fundix

Hi, today I have get NFB-12. But my AKG K 702 is still on the way.
    
  DAC I bought directly from Audio-DG. I have used DHL (to The Czech Republic). Declared price was really $ 50, but the duty was calculated from the price of $ 100.
  DAC is beautifully and healthy warm. DAC is warm as well as my NAD amplifier.


----------



## palermo

Hi all, I just brought NFB-12 from someone in local forum. I plug usb with the same setting as mr. Brooco. Here I compare my Fiio E10 that I got earlier to boost my HD555 (modded). It's hard to say I love NFB-12, couse lack in transparent mid-hi frequency and the midrange not realy as good as I expected. I don't understand why Fiio E10 with crap in power supply slightly better sound.
  I want to ask, Its worth to upgrade some caps in digital section with sanyo oscon maybe, or change caps in analog section with other better caps? just my curious, sorry with my bad english.


----------



## Tilpo

fundix said:


> Hi, today I have get NFB-12. But my AKG K 702 is still on the way.
> 
> DAC I bought directly from Audio-DG. I have used DHL (to The Czech Republic). Declared price was really $ 50, but the duty was calculated from the price of $ 100.
> DAC is beautifully and healthy warm. DAC is warm as well as my NAD amplifier.



For me the import duty was actually based on the full $200.


----------



## killkli

My NFB-12 was of the old stock (the first batch.)
  It has no filter selection so only default brick wall filter.
  But I always wondered about the "dimness" all man keep mentioning about, because I felt nothing of the sort.
   
  Indeed, NFB-12 has a roll off beginning from 8kHz to 20kHz, due to the filter setting.
  But it's only 6dB even at the lowest point.
  Can you imagining how small that is?
  I got a recording interface recently (RME Babyface, very good recording equipment if you know it.)
  Added with a condenser microphone, I was able to to some headphone FR test.
  Here's two example:
   
  Beyerdynamic T1 with Babyface's Headphone out:
   





   
  Here's with NFB-12:
   




   
  I can't really see any difference in the high FR difference that was resulting from the small 6dB roll off of the filter setting.....
   
   
  So it really is not a big issue with me.
   
  BUT, 
  the USB input is very problematic!!
  I don't know what Audio-GD had done wrong, but their TE7022 receiver part is not setup correctly!
  What ever computer I used and what ever systems, software I've tried, the thing would no get correct 24/96 kHz sample data
  It would ACCEPT such input from USB, but somehow distort or resample it so only below 44kHz in really into the DAC.
  So it got terrible distortion with high res data, (16bits/44kHz is all right)
  It's fine when I switched to optical feeding from the babyface, no fake resample at all.
  So the USB receiver is not really working with 24bits/96kHz high res but only working properly with 44kHz data.
   
  The computer I tried including PC, notebook, MAC. Software with ASIO4ALL under windows XP, WASPI under Windows 7.
  All to the same result.
   
  THAT's not proper.......
   They should fix it really......


----------



## Kingwa

Every gears before shipping we have multi-ply test to guarantee the fault unit less than 1% in some years use .
  The USB 96K/24Bit playback ability is one of the test.
  We have two way to check. One is playback the 96KHz waves show on the instruments.
  The other is check the word clock through the frequency instrument.


----------



## khaine1711

Placed my order 5 mins ago. Communication is kinda weird (got an email saying they received my payment 10 mins before I actually sent my payment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  Hope everything turns out alright


----------



## Syrk

Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Placed my order 5 mins ago. Communication is kinda weird (got an email saying they received my payment 10 mins before I actually sent my payment
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Hah, you're a good guy for still sending the payment after being told they already got it.


----------



## glenda

Quote: 





killkli said:


> My NFB-12 was of the old stock (the first batch.)
> It has no filter selection so only default brick wall filter.
> But I always wondered about the "dimness" all man keep mentioning about, because I felt nothing of the sort.
> 
> ...


 


 Best headphone amp post I've seen in months,  blows away all the meanlingless meter readings over at that blog about oxygen.  Really puts things in perspective.  Thanks.
   
   
  Also read a few pages back,  you should can be upsamplin with sox using that 2x filter,  then the 6db dip gets pushed into the ultrasonic region.


----------



## glenda

Killki
  


> As far as the USB,  why would you use ASIO4all?   Should use Wasapi or direct sound,  I wouldn't use any of the asio hacks with a tenor usb it follows UAC1 protocol.


----------



## fundix

For MAC users I found this:
   
  Recommended Player Settings for Optimal Audio Quality
   
  [edit]
  Set the correct sample-rate and set word-length to 24 bit
  These are set in the 'Audio MIDI Setup' control interface, which is in the 'Utilities' folder:
  (Applications -> Utilities -> *Audio MIDI Setup*).  
   
   
  http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/ITunes-QuickTime_for_Mac_-_Setup_Guide


----------



## tme110

Finally got to compare the e9 and -12.  It's actually pretty close for me but I the -12 was an easy choice.  I used the line out of the -12 to feed the e9 so they were both using the same DAC and same interconnects. I like the bright sound of my grado's but the warmer -12 was a better match and it seemed to have slightly better sound stage.
   
  On a side note though, the e9 was my first amp and I haven't listened to it since I got my 2nd amp (I'm now on my 5th or 6th) and I'm really surprised by how good it sounds.  It is not my best sounding amp or one of my best sounding amps but it is still a solid amp (and so if the -12 obviously) and I would happily listen to it.  I always did think it was the e7 that held the e9 back.


----------



## JereHakala

Pretty off topic but..

 2011-12-27  01:41:00  GUANGZHOU  Dispatch from Sorting Center  
  Still haven't received it, I actually had a dream about this dac few nights ago, weird. 
  Hopefully it will come this week


----------



## genclaymore

What did you pick for shipping, EMS or DHL?


----------



## Tilpo

jerehakala said:


> Pretty off topic but..
> 
> 2011-12-27  01:41:00  GUANGZHOU  Dispatch from Sorting Center
> Still haven't received it, I actually had a dream about this dac few nights ago, weird.
> Hopefully it will come this week



I've had dreams over a Stax rig some time ago, it seems only natural around these parts, lol.


----------



## khaine1711

Received my NFB12 this morning. Got nothing to complain about except the too bright blue led lol.
  Shipping is very fast (3 days EMS). I got charged ~$30 for import tax and VAT (Customs decided that my package worths $100 instead of the $50 declared value)
   
   
  Anyone know how long can you leave this DAC on? 
  I heard it needs ~100 hours burn-in but I don't wanna damage the unit in the process.


----------



## JereHakala

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> What did you pick for shipping, EMS or DHL?


 

 Didn't really pick, they sent it with EMS, I would've chosen DHL though.
  Oh well, it'll probably come this week.
   
  Also, which would be better: The amp in NFB-12 or Little dot MK I+?
   
  Weird combination though, not sure if anyone has tried.


----------



## Tilpo

jerehakala said:


> Didn't really pick, they sent it with EMS, I would've chosen DHL though.
> Oh well, it'll probably come this week.
> 
> Also, which would be better: The amp in NFB-12 or Little dot MK I+?
> ...



The NFB-12 is most likely better, but probably not by a large amount. 
In any case it doesn't warrant buying both. If you want a better amp look to spend around $200-300.


----------



## fundix

Quote: 





jerehakala said:


> Didn't really pick, they sent it with EMS, I would've chosen DHL though.
> Oh well, it'll probably come this week.
> 
> Also, which would be better: The amp in NFB-12 or Little dot MK I+?
> ...


 

 Amp in NFB-12 must be better, because not contains any opamp or feedback. 
  http://lh6.ggpht.com/_RRoLRBPyKiw/SPtB45f3BAI/AAAAAAAAAgI/pFJPVzgQ1Nc/Little%20Dot%20MK%20I%2B%20Circuit.jpg
  vs
  http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB124.jpg


----------



## Tilpo

fundix said:


> Amp in NFB-12 must be better, because not contains any opamp or feedback.
> http://lh6.ggpht.com/_RRoLRBPyKiw/SPtB45f3BAI/AAAAAAAAAgI/pFJPVzgQ1Nc/Little%20Dot%20MK%20I%2B%20Circuit.jpg
> vs
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB124.jpg



Generally speaking opamps actually provide better performance than discrete circuits. And besides, both amplifiers do not contain any opamps, as far as I know.
The only advantage of using transistors over opamps is that they are more suited for high power applications, and provide more control on the designers end. 

The main reason why I would say that the NFB-12 is better is because of the fact that the Little Dot I+ uses very simple circuitry and small amount of parts. Most likely the largest cost in that amplifier are the chassis and tubes, leaving little money left over for other parts at $100. 
Also the NFB-12 has a better power supply as well.

The advantage of the I+ is probably the support of tube rolling allow the user to slightly change around the sound signature.


----------



## JereHakala

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> The NFB-12 is most likely better, but probably not by a large amount.
> In any case it doesn't warrant buying both. If you want a better amp look to spend around $200-300.


 


  Mm, I was just wondering because I already have that little dot, bought it long time ago.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## mbd2884

Audio-GD's website now lists NFB-12 and NFB-12.1.  Not sure what the differences are, anyone know?  The information page hasn't been updated.


----------



## tme110

and the -12 is only $200 now...
   
  There's also a nfb-2.1 DAC now too.  So I'm guessing the 12.1 will have that new cover that everything else is moving to.


----------



## djevoultion

Quote: 





palermo said:


> Hi all, I just brought NFB-12 from someone in local forum. I plug usb with the same setting as mr. Brooco. Here I compare my Fiio E10 that I got earlier to boost my HD555 (modded). It's hard to say I love NFB-12, couse lack in transparent mid-hi frequency and the midrange not realy as good as I expected. I don't understand why Fiio E10 with crap in power supply slightly better sound.
> I want to ask, Its worth to upgrade some caps in digital section with sanyo oscon maybe, or change caps in analog section with other better caps? just my curious, sorry with my bad english.


 


   
  Are you saying you prefer the sound of the E10 over the NFB-12?


----------



## palermo

Quote: 





djevoultion said:


> Are you saying you prefer the sound of the E10 over the NFB-12?


 
   
  It's hard to say E10 give me more relaxed in bottom mid and high frequency. NFB-12 give more emphasis on cymbal, so it's sound clear but tend to grainy and less extended. 
  While I connect E10 to my gainclone setup, I can't access the bass boost feature and volume control, the sound also weaker and less dynamic. I purchase NFB-12 and become the first ultimate source I have had hehehe. Strong bass, dynamic rythm, clear high and deeper soundstage. I thing the weakness NFB-12 are narrow soundstage and lack of high extension.


----------



## eclipes

yeah the downside of NFB-12 is narrow soundstage.
  
  Quote: 





palermo said:


> It's hard to say E10 give me more relaxed in bottom mid and high frequency. NFB-12 give more emphasis on cymbal, so it's sound clear but tend to grainy and less extended.
> While I connect E10 to my gainclone setup, I can't access the bass boost feature and volume control, the sound also weaker and less dynamic. I purchase NFB-12 and become the first ultimate source I have had hehehe. Strong bass, dynamic rythm, clear high and deeper soundstage. I thing the weakness NFB-12 are narrow soundstage and lack of high extension.


----------



## genclaymore

Don't forget you can change the NFB-12 sound signature by changing the jumpers inside of it to the 9 different Digital Filters. But you can only do it on the NFB -12 if yours are the later models which has the Jumpers. Not the older models of it which doesn't. It was mentioned in this thread  some pages back in case you didn't see it eclipes and palermo. 
   
  I was so close ordering one with that discount in play. Then I end up being short, I know I getting the NFB - 12 next month.


----------



## eclipes

I've actually tried a few already, probably around 5 or 6 filters. The 2 filters that sounded the most pleasing with my speakers were the 8x minimum phase apodiser and the 4x minimum phase soft knee. Both are quite good with clarity and bass wise but couldn't really find a filter that expanded the soundstage enough to be significantly heard. 
  
  Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Don't forget you can change the NFB-12 sound signature by changing the jumpers inside of it to the 9 different Digital Filters. But you can only do it on the NFB -12 if yours are the later models which has the Jumpers. Not the older models of it which doesn't. It was mentioned in this thread  some pages back in case you didn't see it eclipes and palermo.
> 
> I was so close ordering one with that discount in play. Then I end up being short, I know I getting the NFB - 12 next month.


----------



## dirkpitt45

Does anyone know specifically which drivers the NFB-12 uses? On windows7. I've had nothing but trouble with it on my desktop lately. It'll randomly stop playing, then not start again till I switch USB ports and the drivers start running again. It also won't work right away when I turn on my desktop, loud white noise in the sound. Which again goes away when I switch USB ports.
   
  Works perfectly fine on my laptop and I used it on another desktop for a few weeks and didn't have a single problem.


----------



## ac500

Has anybody tried the NFB12 with HD800s?


----------



## eclipes

Thats weird.. i do get those white noise when i start up the computer but it'll go away in like 3 seconds. I never tried or used the USB on the nfb-12, have it connected via optical and works perfectly on my Windows 7 Ultimate. Try emailing KingWa, sounds like its the unit. Did this ever happen before?
  
  Quote: 





dirkpitt45 said:


> Does anyone know specifically which drivers the NFB-12 uses? On windows7. I've had nothing but trouble with it on my desktop lately. It'll randomly stop playing, then not start again till I switch USB ports and the drivers start running again. It also won't work right away when I turn on my desktop, loud white noise in the sound. Which again goes away when I switch USB ports.
> 
> Works perfectly fine on my laptop and I used it on another desktop for a few weeks and didn't have a single problem.


----------



## mbd2884

Quote: 





dirkpitt45 said:


> Does anyone know specifically which drivers the NFB-12 uses? On windows7. I've had nothing but trouble with it on my desktop lately. It'll randomly stop playing, then not start again till I switch USB ports and the drivers start running again. It also won't work right away when I turn on my desktop, loud white noise in the sound. Which again goes away when I switch USB ports.
> 
> Works perfectly fine on my laptop and I used it on another desktop for a few weeks and didn't have a single problem.


 


  Obviously means there is something wrong with your desktop if the Windows drivers work fine and the NFB-12 works fine on your laptop and other desktops.  The default windows USB drivers are the same on all computers.  So this likely points to a hardware issue on your desktop.  Something wrong with your USB ports.  
   
  The only other thing I can think of, do a reinstall of Windows.


----------



## tme110

Yea, personally I never use USB at all and then I can just skip all the head aches.  Maybe a useless comment but besides netbooks, I've never seen a computer without coax or optical on in - and my computers are usually pretty low-end machines.  Though I had my laptop for 6 months before I found the unadvertised, hidden optical connection on it.


----------



## mbd2884

Try this.  I'm guessing your desktop uses an Intel chipset, pretty much 95% of motherboards that have a socket for Intel CPU do today.  
   
  Download the official desktop chipset drivers from Intel.  
   
  Then right click on the installer.  
   
  Set the compatibility mode to Vista SP2.  
   
  Then press Windows key + R.  
   
  Drag the installer to the run as dialogue.  
   
  After just add -overall.
   
  Run the installer. This will override any Windows or default drivers for your USB controller.  The Chipset is the controller for your USB ports.  That might help.  Once you restart, Windows may reinstall the USB DAC drivers as well.


----------



## tme110

Is your music on your computer?  I've had all kinds of issues trying to play music off a NAS so I moved my collection back to my local hard drive which did annoy me.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





ac500 said:


> Has anybody tried the NFB12 with HD800s?


 


  Wouldn't recommend it.


----------



## palermo

I think the digital filter just give a different sound in term of "flavor music" or frequency balance, not expanding soundstage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Just question, why NFB-12 does not have onboard upsampler feature, it's hard to implement asrc chip? just my curiosity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Don't forget you can change the NFB-12 sound signature by changing the jumpers inside of it to the 9 different Digital Filters. But you can only do it on the NFB -12 if yours are the later models which has the Jumpers. Not the older models of it which doesn't. It was mentioned in this thread  some pages back in case you didn't see it eclipes and palermo.
> 
> I was so close ordering one with that discount in play. Then I end up being short, I know I getting the NFB - 12 next month.


----------



## genclaymore

I have no idea, maybe it be in the NFB-12 on the next ver.


----------



## gyrodec

There is no ASRC in NFB-12 as:
  1. They cost money and the NFB-12 is already exceptional value for money
  2. I'm not sure there is room in the case - Look at the photos, it's full aready


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> No. There is a theoretical difference, but it should be far from audible.


 


  This is your opinion, but there's a big difference in measured jitter between most a typical optical output and a good coax cable, and it does affect the sound.  That said, people perceive this with varying degrees of intensity, and IMHO there's a lot of snake-oil over-hyping jitter reduction.  It's a complex subject, though, and simple answers aren't always good answers...  
   
  One thing is sure; you do have to have a player with a low-jitter output for coax to be better than TOSLINK, and if it's just a typical commercial player that is not likely to be the case...  You also need a real 75 ohm cable, some people just grab any old interconnect and assume it will work.  It will, but it really degrades the timing of the signal.


----------



## Tilpo

mrspeakers said:


> This is your opinion, but there's a big difference in measured jitter between most a typical optical output and a good coax cable, and it does affect the sound.  That said, people perceive this with varying degrees of intensity, and IMHO there's a lot of snake-oil over-hyping jitter reduction.  It's a complex subject, though, and simple answers aren't always good answers...
> 
> One thing is sure; you do have to have a player with a low-jitter output for coax to be better than TOSLINK, and if it's just a typical commercial player that is not likely to be the case...  You also need a real 75 ohm cable, some people just grab any old interconnect and assume it will work.  It will, but it really degrades the timing of the signal.



I never said there was no difference, just that - if properly implemented - the difference is not audible. 
An audible difference suggests that there is something wrong with the source of the data (a CD player or computer), the cable or with the DAC itself. 

I am making the assumption that the NFB-12 uses a proper implementation of both coax and optical connection, therefore there should be no audible difference between the two. If there is then it's most likely caused by a faulty cable or by an improper implementation of the connection by the CD player/computer.


----------



## Flagellin

Has anyone done any comparison between the NFB-12 and the Audioengine D1?


----------



## JereHakala

Finally got it! Sounds quite epic.
   
  Anyone know how this sound thing works on Windows? If I start to listen music on Foobar, then stop it and resume video in VLC there wont be any sound until I restart VLC player.
   
  Edit: switched to optical/spdif whatever, seems to be working now.


----------



## eclipes

congrats, glad you like the unit. You must be using WASPI output i assume? it stops all sounds from interfering with your music in foobar. Happens for me too, I need to switch back forth when  I want to watch a youtube video or something, I would need to stop foobar, restart my chrome in order to have sound again. Maybe someone has a solution to this or a workaround because it does get annoying if you're doing switches quite often.
  
  Quote: 





jerehakala said:


> Finally got it! Sounds quite epic.
> 
> Anyone know how this sound thing works on Windows? If I start to listen music on Foobar, then stop it and resume video in VLC there wont be any sound until I restart VLC player.
> 
> Edit: switched to optical/spdif whatever, seems to be working now.


----------



## tme110

You might be able to de-sellect the 'exclusive sound' flag in the audio driver page but I haven't bothered to play with it myself.  I know that flag will let you get computer sounds back but I'm not sure about with Wasabi.


----------



## steve2151

New NFB-12.1 available for order from the Audio-GD site:
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm
   
  Adds $15 to the price but has all of the filters selectable from front panel via two 3 way switches.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





steve2151 said:


> New NFB-12.1 available for order from the Audio-GD site:
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm
> 
> Adds $15 to the price but has all of the filters selectable from front panel via two 3 way switches.


 


 Nice addition.  Wonder what they charge to do an upgrade ......


----------



## Zink

That does look like it would definitely worth $15 if you like to play around with the sound. I haven't been looking at head-fi in a long time but I just read a review that reminded me how crappy my udac-2 is and this looks like the perfect replacement product for at my computer desk that is actually designed properly and a great value.


----------



## eclipes

the new change does look quite handy and neat. Much better for "a b ing" Well worth the 15$..


----------



## blakey72

I'm Looking at buying the NFB-12 but aren't 100% sure. I'm going to be using it mainly with my AKG K702's but also with my Shure SHR440's and Alessandro MS1's. Will this amp have good synergy with the 702's and enough power? The other product that has been suggested is the Matrix M-Stage. Which do you think? Any other suggestions?
   
  Thanks
  Blake.


----------



## JereHakala

Bleh, it comes few days after I receive mine, but that's how it goes in anything tech related, constantly updating


----------



## tme110

I'm pretty sure it has more power than you will ever need - can't speak for synergy though but I'm guessing you'll be good.  Personally, I'd pick the -12.
  
  Quote: 





blakey72 said:


> I'm Looking at buying the NFB-12 but aren't 100% sure. I'm going to be using it mainly with my AKG K702's but also with my Shure SHR440's and Alessandro MS1's. Will this amp have good synergy with the 702's and enough power? The other product that has been suggested is the Matrix M-Stage. Which do you think? Any other suggestions?
> 
> Thanks
> Blake.


----------



## palermo

go straight to 10SE, TOTL wm8741 based 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





blakey72 said:


> I'm Looking at buying the NFB-12 but aren't 100% sure. I'm going to be using it mainly with my AKG K702's but also with my Shure SHR440's and Alessandro MS1's. Will this amp have good synergy with the 702's and enough power? The other product that has been suggested is the Matrix M-Stage. Which do you think? Any other suggestions?
> 
> Thanks
> Blake.


----------



## TheChillburger

Couple of question about for NFB-12 owners. 
 I'm in the market for an amp to use with my laptop, since it has a rather shoddy soundcard by default. I have a Xonar DX installed in my desktop, so the output and soundstage differences are quite noticeable. I was originally considering the Fiio E17, but then I found out that the NFB 12 exists, and I think it would provide an both an upgrade from my desktop and a mobile rig. 
  Would you recommend this approach? I currently own a SRH440 and an AD700, but am looking to grabbing a DT770 in the future.


----------



## eclipes

You won't be disappointed for sure. And now that the NFB-12.1 is out, great opportunity to get it.
  
  Quote: 





thechillburger said:


> Couple of question about for NFB-12 owners.
> I'm in the market for an amp to use with my laptop, since it has a rather shoddy soundcard by default. I have a Xonar DX installed in my desktop, so the output and soundstage differences are quite noticeable. I was originally considering the Fiio E17, but then I found out that the NFB 12 exists, and I think it would provide an both an upgrade from my desktop and a mobile rig.
> Would you recommend this approach? I currently own a SRH440 and an AD700, but am looking to grabbing a DT770 in the future.


----------



## genclaymore

I wonder if the 12 and 12.1 sound the same?  It be neat if the people that already have the 12 could send it in and paid 15 dollars for the update to their models.


----------



## palermo

I think their new one just wanna make user operate easier. 
  $15 really fair enough, while someone who has NFB-5 but does not using OPA's feature would be jealous spent $130 hehe..


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I wonder if the 12 and 12.1 sound the same?  It be neat if the people that already have the 12 could send it in and paid 15 dollars for the update to their models.


 


 Have already emailed King-wa to ask if that would be an option, and what the cost would be.  Will advise back if/when he replies.


----------



## steve2151

Given the cost of shipping both ways plus the materials cost for a new front panel and switches, it would probably be cheaper to sell your old unit on the forums and buy the new one.


----------



## JudgeDreadLocks

Have there been any impressions of this amp with the HE-500?


----------



## eclipes

I think you're better off with the Lyr.
  
  Quote: 





judgedreadlocks said:


> Have there been any impressions of this amp with the HE-500?


----------



## JudgeDreadLocks

Care to elaborate? I see you have a nfb-12, have you heard a lyr and prefer it over your nfb-12?


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





judgedreadlocks said:


> Have there been any impressions of this amp with the HE-500?


 
What would be the better source upgrade for me? (Cavalli CTH or Audio-gd NFB-12)  gives some advice about various cans that work well with the NFB-12, satwilson, post#7.


----------



## Ken Rosenberg

Please delete.


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





ken rosenberg said:


> Would the NFB-12 have ample power for the 600Ω DT 880?


 
   Did you see my link above, Beyers 7-9, 250ohms-600ohms..OK...DID YOU SEE MY LINK ABOVE?


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





judgedreadlocks said:


> Have there been any impressions of this amp with the HE-500?


 
  I assume you have read LiqTenExp's opinions via the provided linc. The HE-500 is much easier to drive than the HE-6. Given the extensive list of excellent cans the NFB12 can enhance, although not specifically mentioned, I would think the HE-500 would be very happy.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Quote: 





ken rosenberg said:


> Would the NFB-12 have ample power for the 600Ω DT 880?


 

 I have personally not liked either of my more recent 600 ohm Beyers (T1 and DT880/600) with the NFB-12. Soundstage and treble extension have suffered in both cases. Admittedly, I do have the early production NFB-12 without user-adjustable filters, so a newer 12 or 12.1 with the filter settings may prove to be a better pairing.


----------



## killkli

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> I have personally not liked either of my more recent 600 ohm Beyers (T1 and DT880/600) with the NFB-12. Soundstage and treble extension have suffered in both cases. Admittedly, I do have the early production NFB-12 without user-adjustable filters, so a newer 12 or 12.1 with the filter settings may prove to be a better pairing.


 


  Try up-sample to 96k. I use SoX for the up-sample, it's a good formulation, low distortion.
  Do not use the USB because it doesn't really transfer 96k to the DAC.
  I've tested this seriously, and I've also informed audio-gd about this problem on this thread.
  But the reply is not to my point and I'm fairly disappointed with them. I've also E-Mail them about this problem, they didn't even bother to respond my email.
  Yes, the USB receiver chip would tell your computer that they can handle up to 96kHz data, but Audio-GD doesn't set the chip right, so the receiver chip will not send right information to the DAC.
   
   
  Either optical or coax is fine.
   
  You'll find that it much better this way with NFB-12. Mine is also old version without filter setting.


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





olias of sunhillow said:


> I have personally not liked either of my more recent 600 ohm Beyers (T1 and DT880/600) with the NFB-12. Soundstage and treble extension have suffered in both cases. Admittedly, I do have the early production NFB-12 without user-adjustable filters, so a newer 12 or 12.1 with the filter settings may prove to be a better pairing.


 
  To answer Nick T's question specifically about "ample power", the answer is yes. As regards soundstage and treble extension the NFB12 has oftentimes been described as "warm sounding" which implies to me somewhat rolled off on the highend, so some Beyer fans will like that and others like yourself "just leave that Beyer sparkle alone" won't. I respect that, personal opinion. Sooundstage has been described as average, it is what it is, adequate for my needs. As KILLKLI said, overall settings(sample rate,etc) come into play here. I have the newer version with adjustable filters, use Winamp, set my W7 laptop to upsample output to 96/24, then set the NFB12  to 96/24 soft knee. With either of my phones, modded T50RP or Koss ESP950's the highs sound good to me. I have never heard Beyers, so your personal opinions and needs may differ.


----------



## Olias of Sunhillow

Oh, I agree... this unit is very signal-dependent. I use Audirvana Plus on a MacBook pro to upsample to 24/96 and connect via optical -- this arrangement seems to produce the best results.
   
  I think it sounds quite good with both my Beyer T70p (32 ohm) and my Grado RS-1, each of which can benefit from the bit of warmth and slight treble roll-off that the NFB-12 provides. It also pairs reasonably well with my LA 2000 Lite.


----------



## ac500

I have the old NFB12 without filter switching, and I noticed this:
   
  http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-samplerates.htm
   
  The NFB12 seriously rolls off treble according to this. I just switched to 192/24 which apparently avoids the treble being so laid back, and I'm pretty sure my HD650 sounds more detailed and has the treble more to my liking (originally I found myself adding a treble boost). Edit: If anything it's very subtle. Not as nearly a big a difference as when I went from 48/24 to 96/24 (which makes sense according to the graph, too).
   
  I know a few decibels may not seem like a lot up near 20khz, but I definitely confirmed by ear that my NFB12 was more laid back versus my MacBook Air sound output, at least.
   
  Edit: My MacBook Air still sounds brighter :/


----------



## Brooko

Not surprised.  I found (when playing with the filters) that all the 192/24 filters (and AFAIK that's what the filter was set to as default) sound quite warm and laid back - at the cost of perceived detail.
   
  With the switchable filters, the Minimum Phase Softknee (still warm but better detail) and the Minimum Phase Apodising (less warmth and much better detail) both increased resolution quite a bit.
   
  It pairs really well with the HD600 - but I can only imagine how unresolving it would be with the HD650.  Not a good match without the ability to switch filters I'd be guessing.


----------



## phandrew

The best oversampling i found was 2x Soft knee. It was set as 2x brickwall when i got it but it was too harsh sounding. Soft knee was more forgiving and smoother.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





phandrew said:


> The best oversampling i found was 2x Soft knee. It was set as 2x brickwall when i got it but it was too harsh sounding. Soft knee was more forgiving and smoother.


 


 Depends on your cans and preferences I guess.  I personally found all of the 2x filters too warm and lush.


----------



## uzi

Man, no love for the Brickwall filters around here.  I just spent the last two nights playing with all of the 8x and 4x oversampling settings and I've settled in on the "4X oversampling, linear phase 'brickwall' filter" setting for listening with my HD650.
   
  The "8X oversampling, Minimum phase apodising filter" _was_ really detailed as others have mentioned, but it felt like there was an over-emphasis on the higher frequencies.  I loved it for things like Nirvana's "Nevermind" and Queens of the Stone Age's "Songs for the Deaf" where there's a drum emphasis (hmm... maybe it's a Dave Grohl thing), but not so much for Stevie Wonder's "Original Musiquarium I", where I wanted things to be more funky and bassy.  Listening to various points in my collection (like "Something" and "Because" by The Beatles, as captouch had brought those up), it felt like the abundance of detail was kinda fatiguing and the warmth was gone.
   
  While most of the stuff I'm listening to are ripped CDs and online streaming, I am playing around with some 24-bit/96kHz material, so I figured to play with the 4X settings. The 4X brickwall one seemed to best maintain the warmth and overall sound signature I want out of the HD650 and I feel like it delivers a slightly more lively sound than its 2X counterpart.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





uzi said:


> Man, no love for the Brickwall filters around here.  I just spent the last two nights playing with all of the 8x and 4x oversampling settings and I've settled in on the "4X oversampling, linear phase 'brickwall' filter" setting for listening with my HD650.
> 
> The "8X oversampling, Minimum phase apodising filter" _was_ really detailed as others have mentioned, but it felt like there was an over-emphasis on the higher frequencies.  I loved it for things like Nirvana's "Nevermind" and Queens of the Stone Age's "Songs for the Deaf" where there's a drum emphasis (hmm... maybe it's a Dave Grohl thing), but not so much for Stevie Wonder's "Original Musiquarium I", where I wanted things to be more funky and bassy.  Listening to various points in my collection (like "Something" and "Because" by The Beatles, as captouch had brought those up), it felt like the abundance of detail was kinda fatiguing and the warmth was gone.
> 
> While most of the stuff I'm listening to are ripped CDs and online streaming, I am playing around with some 24-bit/96kHz material, so I figured to play with the 4X settings. The 4X brickwall one seemed to best maintain the warmth and overall sound signature I want out of the HD650 and I feel like it delivers a slightly more lively sound than its 2X counterpart.


 

 Just curious, you using NFB-12 as DAC only or amp as well?


----------



## uzi

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Just curious, you using NFB-12 as DAC only or amp as well?


 

  
  Amp as well.  Again, the "4X oversampling, linear phase 'brickwall' filter" is nowhere near as detailed as the "8X oversampling, Minimum phase apodising filter", but it feels more warm and less fatiguing to listen to for me.  The latter felt too trebly to me.


----------



## zzffnn

It seems that older NFB12s indeed roll off treble,  based on my reading. I imagine an old NFB12 with WM8741 may not have treble roll off with Lcd-2s as well.
   
  I like my Lcd-2 rev1 with Sparrow version B (AD1852) and hear no treble roll off.  Lcd-2 rev1 supposedly produce less treble than rev2 or Lcd3; some even said Lcd-2 revs1 sound like some HD650s though a little better. Maybe the reason why I like the combo is because the neutrality of Sparrow version B.
  
  Quote: 





ac500 said:


> I have the old NFB12 without filter switching, and I noticed this:
> 
> http://supercurio.project-voodoo.org/audio/audio-gd/RMAA/audio-gd-NFB-12-samplerates.htm
> 
> ...


----------



## scannon18

Does treble roll off help with sibilant headphones, or headphones that tend towards sibilance?  Does treble roll off improve soundstage?


----------



## killkli

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Does treble roll off help with sibilant headphones, or headphones that tend towards sibilance?  Does treble roll off improve soundstage?


 


  Sibilance mostly came from 4k~6kHz frequency. 
  The roll-off of NFB-12 starts from 12kHz.


----------



## davidgotsa

So are you guys saying that it isn't a good match with the hd650?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





davidgotsa said:


> So are you guys saying that it isn't a good match with the hd650?


 

 It's really not very good based on my experience.  My Crack and Hifiman EF5 are both heads and shoulders better.  Saw a EF5 in FS section for $250 - worth considering as that's quite a bit off $399 or $499 retail (depends on version).


----------



## killkli

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> Every gears before shipping we have multi-ply test to guarantee the fault unit less than 1% in some years use .
> The USB 96K/24Bit playback ability is one of the test.
> We have two way to check. One is playback the 96KHz waves show on the instruments.
> The other is check the word clock through the frequency instrument.


 

 I finally got my hand on one of Audio-GD's Digital interface.
  Since they both used the same USB receiver chip, the result should be similar.
  But it's not! At least not on my NFB-12:

  NFB12's USB receiver, with the same driver, recorded by the same recorder. Both my RME's optical & Audio-GD's Digital Interface got 96kHz properly.
  However, my NFB12's USB receiver got serious cut-off after 24kHz.
  If it's driver or my foobar's setting error, it should be the same with Audio-GD's Digital Interface, but it's not.
  So the problem would be something wrong from NFB12's USB receiver to DAC.


----------



## Tilpo

killkli said:


> I finally got my hand on one of Audio-GD's Digital interface.
> Since they both used the same USB receiver chip, the result should be similar.
> But it's not! At least not on my NFB-12:
> 
> ...




That does seem like a bad thing, but do you honestly expect to hear _anything_ at all at those frequencies? As long as it's flat until about 18kHz (and it is) it doesn't matter what happens after that. In fact, playing back the high/low frequencies that you can't hear in addition to those you _can_ hear will only be a source of distortion.


----------



## Kingwa

The PCM  audio signal usually have limit at 20Hz to 20KHz.
   
  The fast roll off must by the digital filter built in WM8741, its duty is cut the non-audio signal (noise )  which is higher than 20KHz.
  Please read the article of the digital filter can make you understand.
   
  The NFB12 if change the digital setting can keep the 20-20KHz no roll off.
  We don't want give users a subjective point while listen, so we have not  post which one is best for the frequency band test. This is not contact to the sound quality. Some gears have large roll off still consider sound good .


----------



## killkli

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> That does seem like a bad thing, but do you honestly expect to hear _anything_ at all at those frequencies? As long as it's flat until about 18kHz (and it is) it doesn't matter what happens after that. In fact, playing back the high/low frequencies that you can't hear in addition to those you _can_ hear will only be a source of distortion.


 


  You didn't get to my point.
  ALL THREE LINE ARE THE TESTING RESULT FROM NFB12
  Just the digital sources are different.
   
  1. My computer -> Audio-GD Digital Interface Coax-out -> NFB-12(Coax)
  2. My computer -> RME babyface Optical-out  -> NFB-12(Optical)
  3. My computer -> NFB-12(USB)
   
  Using a 24bits/96kHz test file.
   
  If the signal was correctly sent from the source to the DAC, all three line should be the same with minor jitter noise, but NOTHING should be different in frequency response.
  It's the same with both Audio-GD Digital Interface/RME babyface Optical-out. BUT my NFB12's USB ALTERED the frequency response. THe high is not simply roll off, It's kind of "CUT" off.
  Which means from the USB receiver chip to DAC, there is something LOST.
  It's not about sound signature, it's about design flaw or unit flaw.
   
  KINGWA, your response is still not even touched my point.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





killkli said:


> You didn't get to my point.
> ALL THREE LINE ARE THE TESTING RESULT FROM NFB12
> Just the digital sources are different.
> 
> ...


 

 I see your point.  At which point in the upper frequencies is the cut off you mentioned?


----------



## killkli

Around 20~22kHz, which means that perhaps the DAC received 44 or 48kHz data.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





killkli said:


> Around 20~22kHz, which means that perhaps the DAC received 44 or 48kHz data.


 


  Hmm, how's the frequency response to that 20 to 22 kHz point?


----------



## scannon18

I think I'll go for a different dac/amp. Since hearing the sansa clip + ive decided that i dont really care for "warm" gear.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> I think I'll go for a different dac/amp. Since hearing the sansa clip + ive decided that i dont really care for "warm" gear.


 


  But, how are going to keep yourself warm during those cold winter nights?


----------



## scannon18

digital-pride said:


> But, how are going to keep yourself warm during those cold winter nights?:wink_face:




Audio equipment is for music. Females for warmth


----------



## renyiandhan

Quote: 





killkli said:


> Around 20~22kHz, which means that perhaps the DAC received 44 or 48kHz data.


 


   I got you, but it looks like you just confused different concepts
  44.1, 48, 96, 192,384k ... are sample rates, they have nothing to do with frequency response range(20~20khz...)


----------



## killkli

Quote: 





renyiandhan said:


> I got you, but it looks like you just confused different concepts
> 44.1, 48, 96, 192,384k ... are sample rates, they have nothing to do with frequency response range(20~20khz...)


 

 I have not confused anything.
  All test was done with 96kHz sample rate data, which means they should all be able to reproduce up to 48kHz sound.
  But when the data goes from NFB-12's USB receiver, the reproduction is not correct. Other digital interface such as RME's babyface or even Audio-GD's own Digital Interface got 96kHz data to the DAC correctly.
  It clear from the FR plot. Both babyface and digital interface to NFB12's DAC reproduced quite flat FR to about 30kHz, then roll off to 48kHz, it's okay since there is LPF(low pass filter) working.
  At 48kHz sound, it's about -9dB roll-off, actually, NFB-12's LPF's roll-off is about -6dB, but my recorder card has it's own roll-off too, so I got about -9dB here.
   
  BUT!!!!! From NFB-12's USB receiver, the roll-off (it's actually CUTOFF, but RMAA smoothed it, can't disable it) start around 22kHz, the sound is virtally none from 24kHz onward.
   
  Why all you guys keep saying I mistaken something or not? I have complete idea about what I'm doing, and I have correct knowledge about what I'm doing.
  I do recording work sometimes. It's part of my job okay?


----------



## renyiandhan

take it easy, buddy
  but FR is NOT sample rate, right? and your test is about FR roll-off, so it is unrelated to the sample rate
  PS: from some earlier tests, the NFB12's FR rolled off from about 10khz,  worse?

  
  Quote: 





killkli said:


> I have not confused anything.
> All test was done with 96kHz sample rate data, which means they should all be able to reproduce up to 48kHz sound.
> But when the data goes from NFB-12's USB receiver, the reproduction is not correct. Other digital interface such as RME's babyface or even Audio-GD's own Digital Interface got 96kHz data to the DAC correctly.
> It clear from the FR plot. Both babyface and digital interface to NFB12's DAC reproduced quite flat FR to about 30kHz, then roll off to 48kHz, it's okay since there is LPF(low pass filter) working.
> ...


----------



## renyiandhan

killkli's test told us that how much a better digital interface could enhance(or extend) the NFB-12's frequency response range


----------



## renyiandhan

whether a FR roll-off is good or bad , it has nothing to do with the ability of  taking music of high sample rates, they belong to different categories.
  though i'm also sad to own an older version without filter
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   
  a tasteless cake compared to new version or 12.1


----------



## Tilpo

"The ACSS is a non-feedback technology made with fully discrete amplifiers. Most people know the global feedback design can offer better specs in test measurements, and non-feedback can't do well in test measurements but can offer better sound for the human's ears"
This lack of negative feedback stated here would mean a reduction in bandwidth. Maybe this is what causes the high frequency roll-off, and _not_ the USB receiver chip or anything like that. 

It only states that it doesn't have global feedback, on the other hand. Maybe it _does_ have local feedback. 


Kingwa, if you read this, would you be kind enough as to elaborate?


----------



## Kingwa

In the ACSS circuits, there are no any global feedback, no any feedback  at every  single stage .
  Its components all are the current mirrors, the input signal and output in every stages all work in current field, without voltage and current converte.


----------



## Kingwa

If without any lowpast filters, the ACSS circuits can working flat at 1HZ to 700KHZ  , and the quadrate waves test , the output signal can same as the input signal .
  Some other circuits also can working flat at this field even wider, but the output quadrate waves can't as the input.


----------



## Tilpo

Then what do you think is the cause of the early high frequency roll-off?


----------



## Kingwa

Higher than 20KHz, there are nothings in the normal PCM format music file,except noise.
  In the NFB12 with digital filter setting, users can setting 20-20K Hz at -0DB.
  Please check this thread earlier post, there are some price more than 50 X times cost gears have worst roll off.
  Even setting the NFB12 have 20 to 20K Hz at 0DB roll off, don't expect its sound better than costly but wrost roll off gears.


----------



## scannon18

Does audio GD have a return policy? It would be great if I could try it out, IMO there is no measurement for sound quality more accurate than listening to the gear with our own flawed ears. Classify me as a "subjectivist."


----------



## tme110

Even if there is a return policy it would still be cheaper to just buy something from the used forum and then resell it vise sending it back to China.


----------



## scannon18

Damn forgot about the massive shipping charges. I guess I'll just wait for ODA/ODAC from JDS Labs


----------



## palermo

Quote: 





killkli said:


> I have not confused anything.
> All test was done with 96kHz sample rate data, which means they should all be able to reproduce up to 48kHz sound.
> But when the data goes from NFB-12's USB receiver, the reproduction is not correct. Other digital interface such as RME's babyface or even Audio-GD's own Digital Interface got 96kHz data to the DAC correctly.
> It clear from the FR plot. Both babyface and digital interface to NFB12's DAC reproduced quite flat FR to about 30kHz, then roll off to 48kHz, it's okay since there is LPF(low pass filter) working.
> ...


 
  I agree with mr. killkli. should be no difference between the three graph. 
  the implementation USB receiver using TE7022l perhaps not so good. 
  this time to consider xmos in all dac audio-gd product


----------



## malaLamicka

My new NFB-12.1 just arrive. Its my first headphone amplifier.
   
  
   
   
  I'm curious how will it play with my good old Koss UR/30. But somehow I guess it not by best match for this amp.
  Any suggestion for properly headphones for this amp?


----------



## Tilpo

malalamicka said:


> My new NFB-12.1 just arrive. Its my first headphone amplifier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It has a fair bit of power, so most headphones will be driven properly on it.

Depending on your budget there are quite a few options available. I personally have tried it with the HD 650, and I can tell that it's a good combination. 
I think it would be wiser to ask the same question in the Headphone recommendations thread, they will be sure to point you in the right direction. Do mention a budget, though!


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> It has a fair bit of power, so most headphones will be driven properly on it.
> Depending on your budget there are quite a few options available. I personally have tried it with the HD 650, and I can tell that it's a good combination.
> I think it would be wiser to ask the same question in the Headphone recommendations thread, they will be sure to point you in the right direction. Do mention a budget, though!


 
What would be the better source upgrade for me? (Cavalli CTH or Audio-gd NFB-12)  Check this out, post #7, satwilson


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





killkli said:


> You didn't get to my point.
> ALL THREE LINE ARE THE TESTING RESULT FROM NFB12
> Just the digital sources are different.
> 
> ...


 



 You may indeed have a technical point, but in the real world of how this unit sounds to humans Kingwa has answered your concerns, you are being stubborn. In the real world your concerns have no relevance in how this sounds. And your inference that you have discovered some kind of "flaw" in his design, what are your credentials VS his?


----------



## scannon18

satwilson said:


> You may indeed have a technical point, but in the real world of how this unit sounds to humans Kingwa has answered your concerns, you are being stubborn. In the real world your concerns have no relevance in how this sounds. And your inference that you have discovered some kind of "flaw" in his design, what are your credentials VS his?




I don't know, all things considered it is still a little fishy, and I'm not quite satisfied with Kingwa's response. Who cares if more expensive gear has worse roll off? What is the cause of the nfb12s roll off and why does it only affect USB?


----------



## palermo

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> I don't know, all things considered it is still a little fishy, and I'm not quite satisfied with Kingwa's response. Who cares if more expensive gear has worse roll off? What is the cause of the nfb12s roll off and why does it only affect USB?


 
  still no answer, no explanation.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





palermo said:


> still no answer, no explanation.


 

 It's not that it particularly bothers me.  A good sounding amp is a good sounding amp.  I don't plan on buying it because the word "warm" scares me away, which is unfortunate because only through listening to it myself could I know if it is too "warm" for my tastes.
   
  The HF cutoff is more a nagging interest than anything else.  A curiosity.


----------



## malaLamicka

well, Koss UR/30 definitely no go. No difference between old sony ac receiver and this amp. I will need to look at some HD 600 and above.


----------



## palermo

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> It's not that it particularly bothers me.  A good sounding amp is a good sounding amp.  I don't plan on buying it because the word "warm" scares me away, which is unfortunate because only through listening to it myself could I know if it is too "warm" for my tastes.
> 
> *The HF cutoff is more a nagging interest than anything else.  A curiosity. *


 
  The bold line which I waiting for explanation from mr. kingwa.. we are the same way brother.


----------



## Kingwa

We must had the NDA with Tenor company, then we can applied the TE7022.
  I don't want againest the law, We can't reveal about the TE7022 built in technology.
  You are better send email ask Tenor company direct.


----------



## killkli

Well, I have to clear a point. I like NFB-12.
  It's a well built DAC & AMP.
  It's sound very good with my headphones from my sensitive Livewires Trip to my full size HE500.
  It's just the USB receiver behaves abnormal in the measurement, and I wish to know where it go wrong.
   
  If I don't like it, I'd have already take other DAC/AMP, wouldn't I?


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





kingwa said:


> We must had the NDA with Tenor company, then we can applied the TE7022.
> I don't want againest the law, We can't reveal about the TE7022 built in technology.
> You are better send email ask Tenor company direct.


 
  Now that Kingwa has revealed the TE7022's internal circuitry affects the FR and his non disclosure agreement, (NDA?) with Tenor limits his ability to reveal the specifics, I for one feel like we have an answer as to killKli's question. Going forward. I really look forward to members opinions and impressions regarding the newest version with the switches to change the filters easily. I think this upgrade came as a result of our feedback in this forum. I am sure there will once again be complaints regarding frequent upgrades as a "problem". However, I for one think when people suggest improvements, and the company responds, this is a good thing, not a problem. BTW, hopefully someone here can devise some circuitry/switches, perhaps mounted in the top panel, to enable this upgrade in the 2nd gen models that use the jumpers. Kingwa maybe?


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





satwilson said:


> Now that Kingwa has revealed the TE7022's internal circuitry affects the FR and his non disclosure agreement, (NDA?) with Tenor limits his ability to reveal the specifics, I for one feel like we have an answer as to killKli's question. Going forward. I really look forward to members opinions and impressions regarding the newest version with the switches to change the filters easily. I think this upgrade came as a result of our feedback in this forum. I am sure there will once again be complaints regarding frequent upgrades as a "problem". However, I for one think when people suggest improvements, and the company responds, this is a good thing, not a problem. BTW, hopefully someone here can devise some circuitry/switches, perhaps mounted in the top panel, to enable this upgrade in the 2nd gen models that use the jumpers. Kingwa maybe?


 

 I also like the frequent updates.  I might shoot an email to one of the audio-gd guys before buying to see if an update to any particular model would be out soon.


----------



## khaine1711

Mind giving some impression about the hd650 + nfb12? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I may be able to borrow a pair of hd600 and 650 in the next month. Kinda wondering if their "syrupy" sound sig will play nice with the nfb12
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> It has a fair bit of power, so most headphones will be driven properly on it.
> Depending on your budget there are quite a few options available. I personally have tried it with the HD 650, and I can tell that it's a good combination.
> I think it would be wiser to ask the same question in the Headphone recommendations thread, they will be sure to point you in the right direction. Do mention a budget, though!


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Mind giving some impression about the hd650 + nfb12?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Can't comment on the HD650 - will leave that to Tilpo - but IMO the HD600 does pair extremely well with the NFB-12.  I have the jumpered version, and am using the 4 x oversampling minimum phase softknee filter (good mix of clarity and warmth) - coax up to 24/96.  Detailing is nice, and with the slightly forward (but beautifully balanced) mid-range of the HD600, I find the NFB-12 to be a very good pairing.  It is a lot better than my E7/E9 set-up was.  More body.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Mind giving some impression about the hd650 + nfb12?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I know Tilpo thinks it's a good pairing, but I think the NFB12 really doesn't do justice to the HD650.  I like the NFB12 as a DAC and it's OK with my DT880/600's, but not really with HD650's.  I would use veiled as an adjective for HD650 with the NFB12, but not at all with Bottlehead Crack or Hifiman EF5.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I know Tilpo thinks it's a good pairing, but I think the NFB12 really doesn't do justice to the HD650.  I like the NFB12 as a DAC and it's OK with my DT880/600's, but not really with HD650's.  I would use veiled as an adjective for HD650 with the NFB12, but not at all with Bottlehead Crack or Hifiman EF5.


 

 Do you think it's because it's quite a warm dac/amp with a warm headphone?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





brooko said:


> Do you think it's because it's quite a warm dac/amp with a warm headphone?


 


  Yeah, must be it.  I know NFB12 has plenty of power, but 650's are like slow/dull on it.
   
  And it's not the DAC as I can go RCA out to other amps and it sounds great.


----------



## Brooko

Thanks.  Suspected that might be the case.  It actually sounds pretty good to me with the HD600's.  Sounded great on the DT880s (250 ohm) when I had them as well.  I also tried going RCA out to my PortaTube just to see how it would sound - and that was a really nice combo also.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





brooko said:


> Thanks.  Suspected that might be the case.  It actually sounds pretty good to me with the HD600's.  Sounded great on the DT880s (250 ohm) when I had them as well.  I also tried going RCA out to my PortaTube just to see how it would sound - and that was a really nice combo also.


 

 Have you tried your HD600's or DT880's with an OTL tube amp?  I think that'll take both those cans to a different level altogether. My DT880/600's are fine on NFB-12 but much better on the Crack.


----------



## genclaymore

I wonder how it would do as a dac plugged directly into the Matrix M Stage v2.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Have you tried your HD600's or DT880's with an OTL tube amp?  I think that'll take both those cans to a different level altogether. My DT880/600's are fine on NFB-12 but much better on the Crack.


 

 The Crack has always interested me - and probably will be something for the future. For now I'm going to replace my current IEMs so that will end up being the next big purchase for the first half of 2012 (SE535 ltd ed).  Was the Crack hard to build?  Would someone who has never soldered before handle it?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





brooko said:


> The Crack has always interested me - and probably will be something for the future. For now I'm going to replace my current IEMs so that will end up being the next big purchase for the first half of 2012 (SE535 ltd ed).  Was the Crack hard to build?  Would someone who has never soldered before handle it?


 

 Yeah, I had virtually no experience, and it was fine.  Just get the right tools and as long as you're patient and don't have really shaky hands, you should be good.  They come up in FS section now and then - seen some good deals and you don't have to assemble it if you buy it used.


----------



## Tilpo

I personally think the HD 650 sound quite good with the NFB-12, but I still never use it since my Little Dot MKIV is slightly better. The Little Dot is an OTL tube amp and gives a very nice warm and smooth touch to the sound, perfectly fitting the laid back nature of the HD 650. 

The NFB-12 on the other hand is more natural. Note that the differences between the two are subtle, and I wouldn't have paid the money for the Little Dot if I knew the NFB-12 got me this far. 
Especially because the differences I have mentioned are all fairly subjective, and I can't promise they are not infected by placebos. 


Conclusion: The NFB-12 might not be perfect, but it gets very close in my opinion. You will be spending a lot of money for a small upgrade if you want a better amp or DAC, as a result I advice to focus more on buying better headphones (or extra headphones for different sound signatures) than buying better amps or DAC's.


----------



## khaine1711

Hmm that's what I thought about the whole "OTL makes <insert high impedance can> sing" - subtle difference, not day and night.
   
  Or maybe the amp part of the NFB12 is too good for the price. I haven't got the chance to audition high-end tube amp yet. But from the sub $350 amps that I've tried; none has convinced me that it sounds $350 better than the nfb12. 
   
  However, I'm still dying to try the Crack once I get the funds. The kit price just went up to $279 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  The whole dac/amp/otl thing makes me wonder which is the bottleneck in my system. The dac/amp part of nfb12 or my dt990. I really want something to wow me again with costing an arm and a leg 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I personally think the HD 650 sound quite good with the NFB-12, but I still never use it since my Little Dot MKIV is slightly better. The Little Dot is an OTL tube amp and gives a very nice warm and smooth touch to the sound, perfectly fitting the laid back nature of the HD 650.
> The NFB-12 on the other hand is more natural. Note that the differences between the two are subtle, and I wouldn't have paid the money for the Little Dot if I knew the NFB-12 got me this far.
> Especially because the differences I have mentioned are all fairly subjective, and I can't promise they are not infected by placebos.
> Conclusion: The NFB-12 might not be perfect, but it gets very close in my opinion. You will be spending a lot of money for a small upgrade if you want a better amp or DAC, as a result I advice to focus more on buying better headphones (or extra headphones for different sound signatures) than buying better amps or DAC's.


----------



## Tilpo

khaine1711 said:


> Hmm that's what I thought about the whole "OTL makes <insert high impedance can> sing" - subtle difference, not day and night.
> 
> Or maybe the amp part of the NFB12 is too good for the price. I haven't got the chance to audition high-end tube amp yet. But from the sub $350 amps that I've tried; none has convinced me that it sounds $350 better than the nfb12.
> 
> ...




If you are going to upgrade I would advice going with the headphones first, it simply makes the largest difference. Additionally it is also good to try out many different headphones for an extended period of time to get a feel as to what your preferred sound signature is. 
After that you could try a new amp out, but the differences will be far more subtle than with new headphones. I don't see the point in getting a better DAC on the other hand, since I doubt other DAC's will be much better than the NFB-12 since it is ridiculously cheap to create an excellent DAC with current technology. The same goes for amps, spending a couple hundred bucks will probably already put you in the range of overkill, where distortion products of the amplifier are outside of the audible range when listening to music.


----------



## khaine1711

Trying to pry a hd600 off my friend's hands (or his office for that matter). 
   
  DAC-wise I'm looking for something with better soundstage and a tard bit more musical - wondering between the nfb3.1 and dac19 (still want to try the ACSS amp + dac from audio-gd).
   
  Amping I dunno. Since my incoming amps are still on their way, and I only have the nfb12, I cant really test the effect of "amping". So far I've noted that when I try the C2.2 amp, the sounds become more airy, better percussion and acoustic guitar. Gonna try an 6SA7-based tube amp in the coming weeks.
   
  I'm looking for something to compliment the Dt990; especially in Baroque and Chopin stuff. Dt990 is a bit "thin" for violin and piano. Wondering if an amp will fix that or will I need a second can?
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> If you are going to upgrade I would advice going with the headphones first, it simply makes the largest difference. Additionally it is also good to try out many different headphones for an extended period of time to get a feel as to what your preferred sound signature is.
> After that you could try a new amp out, but the differences will be far more subtle than with new headphones. I don't see the point in getting a better DAC on the other hand, since I doubt other DAC's will be much better than the NFB-12 since it is ridiculously cheap to create an excellent DAC with current technology. The same goes for amps, spending a couple hundred bucks will probably already put you in the range of overkill, where distortion products of the amplifier are outside of the audible range when listening to music.


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Trying to pry a hd600 off my friend's hands (or his office for that matter).
> 
> DAC-wise I'm looking for something with better soundstage and a tard bit more musical - wondering between the nfb3.1 and dac19 (still want to try the ACSS amp + dac from audio-gd).
> 
> ...


 



 After receiving my NFB12, my next step was to upgrade my HD280's. The choices for me because I don't have a retailer nearby, had narrowed to either the 600s/650s or 880/990s. I know Senns and Beyers have very different sound signatures, but lacking the opportunity to audition either, many folks think these choices are a good place to start, and if I didn't like them they would be easy to sell. Then came the headfi featured review of Smeggy's Thunderpants, and the resulting group buy. Now there was something else on my radar, planars, orthos. After bemoaning the fact I couldn't afford to purchase a pair of Thunderpants at the time, I decided to at least start the process and bought a pair of T50RPs, the starting point for Thunderpants, with the intention to purchase a DIY kit from Smeggy. As I waited for said kit to become available(the headfi group buy has taken over Smeggys life,LOL), I started modding the stock T50s using the ideas I found in the WIKI for T50s here on headfi. I have never looked back..., many knowledgeable folks here have modded them and say they sound as good, most say better than 600/650s, the best mods take them to the LCD-2 (Audeze) level, LFFs Paradox mod at a recent meet was only bested by the Stax stats. You can buy them for way less than $100, basic mods cost less than $50, and the self satisfaction gained from doing your own mods that transform $150 into world class headphones is a no-brainer. There are a few variations featured in the WIKI that have different sound signatures ensuring, for the most part, a pair that will meet your personal likes/dislikes. IMHO they sound great with the NFB12.


----------



## khaine1711

How closed do they feel? 
   
  I don't mind DIY or modding; however, I can't stand the feel of closed headphone (with the exception of DX1000 and dt770/600).
  
  Quote: 





satwilson said:


> After receiving my NFB12, my next step was to upgrade my HD280's. The choices for me because I don't have a retailer nearby, had narrowed to either the 600s/650s or 880/990s. I know Senns and Beyers have very different sound signatures, but lacking the opportunity to audition either, many folks think these choices are a good place to start, and if I didn't like them they would be easy to sell. Then came the headfi featured review of Smeggy's Thunderpants, and the resulting group buy. Now there was something else on my radar, planars, orthos. After bemoaning the fact I couldn't afford to purchase a pair of Thunderpants at the time, I decided to at least start the process and bought a pair of T50RPs, the starting point for Thunderpants, with the intention to purchase a DIY kit from Smeggy. As I waited for said kit to become available(the headfi group buy has taken over Smeggys life,LOL), I started modding the stock T50s using the ideas I found in the WIKI for T50s here on headfi. I have never looked back..., many knowledgeable folks here have modded them and say they sound as good, most say better than 600/650s, the best mods take them to the LCD-2 (Audeze) level, LFFs Paradox mod at a recent meet was only bested by the Stax stats. You can buy them for way less than $100, basic mods cost less than $50, and the self satisfaction gained from doing your own mods that transform $150 into world class headphones is a no-brainer. There are a few variations featured in the WIKI that have different sound signatures ensuring, for the most part, a pair that will meet your personal likes/dislikes. IMHO they sound great with the NFB12.


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> How closed do they feel?
> 
> I don't mind DIY or modding; however, I can't stand the feel of closed headphone (with the exception of DX1000 and dt770/600).


 
  I am probably not he person to ask, my only other phones are my Koss ESP950 stats, open, not closed, and wonderful sounding also. So my experience with open vs. closed is very limited. Best thing to do would be to ask that question here Just listened to some Fostex T50RPs today... WOW!


----------



## JereHakala

Any idea if Schiit Asgard would be an improvement ? I would use NFB-12 as DAC.


----------



## uzi

Quote: 





jerehakala said:


> Any idea if Schiit Asgard would be an improvement ? I would use NFB-12 as DAC.


 

 I listened to the Schiit Asgard, Valhalla and Lyr briefly at the recent SF Bay Area meetup with my HD650.  I didn't bring my NFB-12, so I couldn't do a side by side comparison or anything, but I did come away liking all three.  For the HD650 (and again with only brief listening), I actually liked the Valhalla the most, with the Lyr and Asgard a close second and third (and probably in that order).  I was going straight from an iPod Touch to the Schiits for my listening.
   
  I also have my eyes on a Schiit amp right now, and I'm very torn between the Valhalla and the Asgard.


----------



## thainxce

One of my friend has this Dac . We 've tried it get pair with headamp Audio-Gd C2.2 to drive beyer Dynamic DT 990 600ohm and 770Pro . They give us one kind of music that 's never been better than this combo . Strong bass , a little bit harsh in high-range but matching wonderful with rock metal , electrical guirta or rapid drumbeat.


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





jerehakala said:


> Any idea if Schiit Asgard would be an improvement ? I would use NFB-12 as DAC.


 

 Really depends on your phones and preferences. I see you have DT770s and there are many who think they pair well with the NFB12. My modded T50RPs generally sound better with high current SS amps rather than tubes. However many Senn HD6XX owners prefer tubes. The amp section in the NFB12 has been described by many as one of the best SS amps for the price, and will likely produce better bass than a tube amp. Tube amps are sometimes preferred for their warm sound, and the NFB12 has often been described as warm sounding. I would try to audition that combo before spending that much money for the Asgard. Hope this helps.


----------



## scannon18

Could this amp possibly drive the audeze LCD -2?


----------



## Digital-Pride

Absolutely.  The NFB-12 will have little trouble driving the LCD-2.


----------



## scannon18

digital-pride said:


> Absolutely.  The NFB-12 will have little trouble driving the LCD-2.




Is there any reason why you got rid of the nfb 12? I notice it's in your "former amps/dacs " list


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Is there any reason why you got rid of the nfb 12? I notice it's in your "former amps/dacs " list


 

  
   Well, I sold it because I'm trying to save up for a truly high-end system.  After trying a bunch of low to mid-range gear, I want to hear what true reference quality gear sounds like.  Where you don't hear the headphones anymore it's just you and the music.  To get there is a bit expensive, so I'm going with a simpler system(portable player and easy to drive headphones) for now until I have the funds for something truly special.
   
  That said, I liked the NFB-12 and found it better than the Fiio E7/E9 combo.  It's an excellent combo unit for its price.  Definitely a good option for someone looking for their first quality amp & DAC.  I'm just moving past that point looking towards to higher-end gear.


----------



## scannon18

digital-pride said:


> Well, I sold it because I'm trying to save up for a truly high-end system.  After trying a bunch of low to mid-range gear, I want to hear what true reference quality gear sounds like.  Where you don't hear the headphones anymore it's just you and the music.  To get there is a bit expensive, so I'm going with a simpler system(portable player and easy to drive headphones) for now until I have the funds for something truly special.
> 
> That said, I liked the NFB-12 and found it better than the Fiio E7/E9 combo.  It's an excellent combo unit for its price.  Definitely a good option for someone looking for their first quality amp & DAC.  I'm just moving past that point looking towards to higher-end gear.




Wow, I wish I had your willpower. I am also After a much more high end system, that's why I'm hoping this dac /amp will be enough for the LCD -2. But you bring up a good point, this still only qualifies as mid -fi gear.


----------



## eclipes

i think you're better off with the Lyr to power the LCD-2. NFB-12 is stronger as a DAC than an amp.
  
  Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Wow, I wish I had your willpower. I am also After a much more high end system, that's why I'm hoping this dac /amp will be enough for the LCD -2. But you bring up a good point, this still only qualifies as mid -fi gear.


----------



## scannon18

eclipes said:


> i think you're better off with the Lyr to power the LCD-2. NFB-12 is stronger as a DAC than an amp.




Ah but the Lyr is a bad match for my Denons


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Wow, I wish I had your willpower. I am also After a much more high end system, that's why I'm hoping this dac /amp will be enough for the LCD -2. But you bring up a good point, this still only qualifies as mid -fi gear.


 

 Thanks, it's not easy.  I'm always tempted to try out more mid-range gear, but I must resist!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  If you're not quite sure of the NFB-12, a Music Streamer II and Objective 2 combo would work quite well with the LCD-2, I think.


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> i think you're better off with the Lyr to power the LCD-2. NFB-12 is stronger as a DAC than an amp.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree, alot of folks think the orthos sound better with high current SS amps, check out post#7 from someone who has first hand experience:


 
What would be the better source upgrade for me? (Cavalli CTH or Audio-gd NFB-12)


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Wow, I wish I had your willpower. I am also After a much more high end system, that's why I'm hoping this dac /amp will be enough for the LCD -2. But you bring up a good point, this still only qualifies as mid -fi gear.


 
   
  I would find a way to listen to the NFB-12 with LCD-2  before you pull the trigger.  I've heard the LCD-2 is on the darker side, and the HP out of the NFB-12 also is darker with rolled off highs.  The low end impact is very good though.  But if both have similar characteristics (reduced high-end and strong low-end), you could amplify the effect getting more low-end than you'd like and less highs than you'd like - in other words, they may not synergize well together.  Just something to think about.  In my case, it doesn't sound very good with my HD650's due to high-end, but sounds fine with my DT880's which have stronger/more pronounced highs.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> Thanks, it's not easy.  I'm always tempted to try out more mid-range gear, but I must resist!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 If you don't mind sharing, what high end gear have you been looking at?
   


  Quote: 





captouch said:


> I would find a way to listen to the NFB-12 with LCD-2  before you pull the trigger.  I've heard the LCD-2 is on the darker side, and the HP out of the NFB-12 also is darker with rolled off highs.  The low end impact is very good though.  But if both have similar characteristics (reduced high-end and strong low-end), you could amplify the effect getting more low-end than you'd like and less highs than you'd like - in other words, they may not synergize well together.  Just something to think about.  In my case, it doesn't sound very good with my HD650's due to high-end, but sounds fine with my DT880's which have stronger/more pronounced highs.


 
  About what frequency do the highs roll off?  I do always worry about "dark" and "warm" sounding gear.  The ideal amp for me would have loads of current, miniscule output impedance, and no noticeable effect on the sound signal.
   
  I do not own the LCD-2 yet, but it's on my hi-fi horizon.  Maybe a $200 dac/amp isn't sufficient for such a high end pair of headphones.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> About what frequency do the highs roll off?  I do always worry about "dark" and "warm" sounding gear.  The ideal amp for me would have loads of current, miniscule output impedance, and no noticeable effect on the sound signal.
> 
> I do not own the LCD-2 yet, but it's on my hi-fi horizon.  Maybe a $200 dac/amp isn't sufficient for such a high end pair of headphones.


 
   
  I don't know and I don't have the equipment to measure it - but the NFB-12 thread may have some measurements/plots.
   
  Honestly, if you're on a budget, I might check out the O2 amp - I've been curious to check it out myself, but no real need.  For $150 or so, it's not a big risk and you could probably resell it for not much less than what you buy it for.  Even better, maybe you can buy one used.  There are multiple references to LCD-2 with O2 on the O2 thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/568705/review-nwavguys-o2-diy-amplifier


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I don't know and I don't have the equipment to measure it - but the NFB-12 thread may have some measurements/plots.
> 
> Honestly, if you're on a budget, I might check out the O2 amp - I've been curious to check it out myself, but no real need.  For $150 or so, it's not a big risk and you could probably resell it for not much less than what you buy it for.  Even better, maybe you can buy one used.  There are multiple references to LCD-2 with O2 on the O2 thread:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/568705/review-nwavguys-o2-diy-amplifier


 

 You're right, I agree.  In fact, I've known this as the truth the entire time.  The problem is that if I am going to get the 02, I had really better wait for the desktop version to come out.  Otherwise I will want the desktop version (even if the only benefit is a better power supply) and will be stuck with a portable amp.  I do not like reselling stuff, it's too much hassle.
   
  So it would be worth waiting for the desktop O2, unfortunately he-who-shall-not-be-named has no details on a release date, and of course after it is released I will want to hold off on buying for a few months so that I can gauge its reception amongst the head-fi group.  Despite all measurements it might not be that great of an amp.
   
  So really my only choice is to enjoy the E9 I have now and wait, wait, wait for the desktop O2 to come out and do some rounds.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> You're right, I agree.  In fact, I've known this as the truth the entire time.  The problem is that if I am going to get the 02, I had really better wait for the desktop version to come out.  Otherwise I will want the desktop version (even if the only benefit is a better power supply) and will be stuck with a portable amp.  I do not like reselling stuff, it's too much hassle.
> 
> So it would be worth waiting for the desktop O2, unfortunately he-who-shall-not-be-named has no details on a release date, and of course after it is released I will want to hold off on buying for a few months so that I can gauge its reception amongst the head-fi group.  Despite all measurements it might not be that great of an amp.
> 
> So really my only choice is to enjoy the E9 I have now and wait, wait, wait for the desktop O2 to come out and do some rounds.


 

 Well, if you don't have the LCD-2's yet, I guess waiting isn't so bad.  I hear the E9 actually has plenty of power, so it's not a bad one to be using for the time being.  
   
  Unless you want it for the DAC (and HP out for other cans that are brighter and need taming), NFB-12 probably isn't the best choice.
   
  I'd be interested in the desktop version of O2 as well - even though I don't really need it.  But in this hobby, it's never really a question of need, is it?


----------



## scannon18

`


----------



## scannon18

EDIT: computer went crazy for a second. . . anyway. . .
   
  no "need" has nothing to do with it.  It's about indulging in the human propensity for "wants"


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> If you don't mind sharing, what high end gear have you been looking at?


 

  
  I recently bought the O2 amp and after using it for a bit, I honestly feel I have the high-quality quality amp I'll need to properly drive almost any higher-end headphone I decide to get.  For a source I've been looking at the Centrance Dacport LX and MSII+.  I'll probably go for the MSII+, because it has a slightly warmer, smoother sound(from what I've read).  Still deciding which headphone will be right for me.


----------



## eclipes

MSII+ is definitely a great dac, it is slightly on the warm side similar to NFB-12 but its really clean and simple. The one thing I don't like is its USB and its looks weird connected on my desk (too messy)
  
  Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> I recently bought the O2 amp and after using it for a bit, I honestly feel I have the high-quality quality amp I'll need to properly drive almost any higher-end headphone I decide to get.  For a source I've been looking at the Centrance Dacport LX and MSII+.  I'll probably go for the MSII+, because it has a slightly warmer, smoother sound(from what I've read).  Still deciding which headphone will be right for me.


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> I recently bought the O2 amp and after using it for a bit, I honestly feel I have the high-quality quality amp I'll need to properly drive almost any higher-end headphone I decide to get.  For a source I've been looking at the Centrance Dacport LX and MSII+.  I'll probably go for the MSII+, because it has a slightly warmer, smoother sound(from what I've read).  Still deciding which headphone will be right for me.


 
  How would you compare the O2 to the amp section in the NFB12? Have you had a chance to look at my suggestion in post #1821 above. While you are still deciding which headphone would be right for you, IMHO, check out the modded T50RP's(Fostex). Many headfiers who have modded these compare them to LCD2's, for way less money. There is a WIKI detailing the various mods and sound signatures and an ongoing thread: "Just listened to T50RP's WOW".


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





satwilson said:


> How would you compare the O2 to the amp section in the NFB12? Have you had a chance to look at my suggestion in post #1821 above. While you are still deciding which headphone would be right for you, IMHO, check out the modded T50RP's(Fostex). Many headfiers who have modded these compare them to LCD2's, for way less money. There is a WIKI detailing the various mods and sound signatures and an ongoing thread: "Just listened to T50RP's WOW".


 

 Thanks.  I think I might just check them out.  Comparing the O2 to the NFB-12's amp section, the O2 is more neutral and linear sounding.  It doesn't have the warmer, slightly laid-back coloration of the NFB-12 and I find it to be more transparent.  The NFB-12's amp seems to have a bit more bass to it though.
   
  Sorry about missing your post.  I agree, the NFB-12's amp section is powerful, if that's what you were suggesting.


----------



## khaine1711

I'm auditioning the Nfb 12 paired with the Dynalo (said to be the best "wire-with-gain" design out there). To be honest I find little differences between the Dynalo and the Nfb12 amp.
   
  The most noticeable difference is the treble; the Nfb12 roll off some treble, while the Dynalo retains all of my Dt990 treble. Bass seems to be a tiny bit smoother on the Dynalo too.
   
  Now I'm not sure if the Nfb12 amp section is equivalent to the Dynalo, or my Dt990 doesn't scale too well with amping, or my hearing is crap


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





digital-pride said:


> Thanks.  I think I might just check them out.  Comparing the O2 to the NFB-12's amp section, the O2 is more neutral and linear sounding.  It doesn't have the warmer, slightly laid-back coloration of the NFB-12 and I find it to be more transparent.  The NFB-12's amp seems to have a bit more bass to it though.
> 
> Sorry about missing your post.  I agree, the NFB-12's amp section is powerful, if that's what you were suggesting.


 
  I appreciate your input regarding the two amps as someone who has owned both. My NFB12 is the first DAC/AMP I have purchased as an upgrade to plain headphones out on my laptop, and for me it opened up a whole new world. I suddenly realized my HD280s weren't enough and have fallen helter skelter into the Headfiers main affliction, Upgradeitus. My main point in referring to the post by LiqTenExp was his opinion regarding the many different types of phones he felt paired well with the NFB12. That being said, these are all personal choices and opinions and we may have different ideas about what is best. Good luck with your current quest for those " higher end phones". Happily for me, my NFB12 and modded T50RPs have left me very satisfied....for now. I think you might really enjoy the T50RPs, and the self satisfaction in modding them yourself, low cost, and resulting "high end sound", is an unbeatable combination. They also pair well with the O2 as people who own both have reported.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





satwilson said:


> I appreciate your input regarding the two amps as someone who has owned both. My NFB12 is the first DAC/AMP I have purchased as an upgrade to plain headphones out on my laptop, and for me it opened up a whole new world. I suddenly realized my HD280s weren't enough and have fallen helter skelter into the Headfiers main affliction, Upgradeitus. My main point in referring to the post by LiqTenExp was his opinion regarding the many different types of phones he felt paired well with the NFB12. That being said, these are all personal choices and opinions and we may have different ideas about what is best. Good luck with your current quest for those " higher end phones". Happily for me, my NFB12 and modded T50RPs have left me very satisfied....for now. I think you might really enjoy the T50RPs, and the self satisfaction in modding them yourself, low cost, and resulting "high end sound", is an unbeatable combination. They also pair well with the O2 as people who own both have reported.


 

 I just want clarify that "high-end" for me includes the HD650, K701 level headphones.  I have zero interest in any of the thousand dollar flagships.  And I feel the NFB-12 is excellent and would be enough a lot of users.


----------



## Tilpo

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]





digital-pride said:


> I just want clarify that "high-end" for me includes the HD650, K701 level headphones.  I have zero interest in any of the thousand dollar flagships.  And I feel the NFB-12 is excellent and would be enough a lot of users.



I wonder, do you say this out of experience, or from your ethical principals (for the lack of a better term).


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I wonder, do you say this out of experience, or from your ethical principals (for the lack of a better term).


 


 I haven't tried any of the flagships personally, but not many have the sound character I prefer(from what I've read).  If find the upper mid-range (2-500USD) level headphones offer enough technical performance(soundstage, bass quality, detail, overall refinement) that I don't feel tempted to try out the flaqships. 
   
  You're right, I don't think I could justify to myself spending over a grand on one pair of headphones, but that's just me.  I would like to audition one sometime, maybe at a local meet in the not too distant future.


----------



## Tilpo

digital-pride said:


> I haven't tried any of the flagships personally, but not many have the sound character I prefer(from what I've read).  If find the upper mid-range (2-500USD) level headphones offer enough technical performance(soundstage, bass quality, detail, overall refinement) that I don't feel tempted to try out the flaqships.
> 
> You're right, I don't think I could justify to myself spending over a grand on one pair of headphones, but that's just me.  I would like to audition one sometime, maybe at a local meet in the not too distant future.



I do think it is a good think to try one out, just to get a better understanding of what the fuss is all about. Only risk would be realizing a giant difference in performance and then wa.ting to buy one too. 
I personally never tried a flagship either, but I definetely plan to try one in the (near) future.


----------



## khaine1711

In my experience, the majority of vendors carrying those flagship headphones do not have the setup to make them shine. I'm sure a proper setup with T1 or Hd800 will blow any mid-end setup several milky ways away. But when plugged in onboard/ipod for example; the differences may not be that much (in some cases high end cans even sound worse than mid-end ones =p). Best way is to find someone with those headphones and pm for a (mini) meet. Problem is to find someone with similar taste/preference in music as yours. 
   
  With all that said, I think if you like a certain brand's house sound, it's pretty safe to shoot for their flagship and upgrade later 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I do think it is a good think to try one out, just to get a better understanding of what the fuss is all about. Only risk would be realizing a giant difference in performance and then wa.ting to buy one too.
> I personally never tried a flagship either, but I definetely plan to try one in the (near) future.


----------



## scannon18

The thing about a flagship headphone today is that in a few years it will be a lot cheaper.  If not that exact headphone, the technology behind the headphone will have dripped down to the lower levels.  We may not see an hd-800 for $700, but we may see a new headphone from sennheiser that features the exotic hd800 driver techonology and sounds just as good as the hd-800 and only costs half as much as an hd-800.  
   
  Like cars: todays lower end cars feature safety, performance, and comfort of more expensive cars only a decade ago.  More and more cars <$20,000 are incorporating bluetooth, navigation and rear-facing cameras, side-impact air bags, traction control, antilock brakes, complex fuel injection technologies, list goes on.  
   
  So I think it makes sense to wait.


----------



## Tilpo

I do not fully agree. 

While there are indeed quote a lot of positive developments in the world of head-fi, it still does not go as fast as other forms of technology. 
On the other hand I am hoping that other companies apart from STAX will start producing electrostats.


----------



## khaine1711

Stax was bought by Edifier; maybe in a few years we could see mass-produced stats for $200 each 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The way I see it about high end headphones is most won't dip down below a certain price point. It's been a while but I never saw any T1 dropping below $800; and they're not nearly as popular as Hd800. Maybe 20 years from now we could get T1/Hd800/Ed8 ... for $400 each; or maybe the companies discontinue them and all jump up to ~$1.5k like grado hp1, hp2.
   
  Also several years of enjoyment (providing you got the system for those cans) is worth the extra $$$ saved by purchasing later imo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I do not fully agree.
> While there are indeed quote a lot of positive developments in the world of head-fi, it still does not go as fast as other forms of technology.
> On the other hand I am hoping that other companies apart from STAX will start producing electrostats.


----------



## scannon18

So at $200 are there any better options for a dac? Ignoring the amp portion of the nfb12 how does the dac stack up to other dacs in this price range?


----------



## Tilpo

Although I have not tried any other DACs in this price range myself, I bought this device.only for it's DACs section.
Even then I still think it was worth it, and I'm sure that the other DACs in this price range will offer simolar performance, if not worse.


----------



## eclipes

just the DAC is worth the 200$, I bought the NFB-12 for its dac component but ended up finding out such a high grade Amp within which is a huge bonus. Other than nitpicking on the soundstage being a bit narrow, everything sound good. I'm using it as a dedicated DAC to my monitors so people with headphones might have different opinions.
  
  Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> So at $200 are there any better options for a dac? Ignoring the amp portion of the nfb12 how does the dac stack up to other dacs in this price range?


----------



## genclaymore

It be nice if there was a NFB -12 that was just a dac without its Amp for less then 200.That would make me very happy. As then I would use it with my Matrix M-Stage.


----------



## Digital-Pride

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> So at $200 are there any better options for a dac? Ignoring the amp portion of the nfb12 how does the dac stack up to other dacs in this price range?


 


  The only one that comes to mind is HRT's Music Streamer II(though I'm sure there are a few others).  It's performance is on par with the NFB-12, but it's limited to usb input only.


----------



## scannon18

All of this time I was looking to upgrade my amp but upgrading the dac might be a better use of money, especially for my phones (see sig) thats why i ask.

Edit: my only worry about the nfb12 is the possibility that it just flashes a dual wolfson chip to attract buyers but the dac as a whole is poorly put together. Like a really great engine put in a car with poor handling and poor brakes.


----------



## Bogatyr

Total noob here looking for a budget performer for my AKG Q701 for music, movies, gaming. Have 250$ to spend, considering either the NFB12, Objective 2 + some DAC, or a 200$ sound card such as Asus Essence. I don't like loud volume and prefer quality over quantity. Suggestions are much appreciated.
   
  I've looked at tons of other dacs & amps in the 200$ area but have no idea which is better for me. Is NFB12 a good choice for its price? Sorry for my vagueness but I am expressing myself to the best of my ability.
   
  P.S. I plan to connect this to my computer via USB.


----------



## eclipes

if you are really worried about the quality of the DAC. I suggest you look into the NFB 3.1, a bit more than NFB-12 but pure quality DAC from what i've read over at the other thread. Currently thinking of getting it as well since i don't really use my headphone out anymore on my nfb-12. I just want a dedicated dac for monitors
  
  Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> All of this time I was looking to upgrade my amp but upgrading the dac might be a better use of money, especially for my phones (see sig) thats why i ask.
> Edit: my only worry about the nfb12 is the possibility that it just flashes a dual wolfson chip to attract buyers but the dac as a whole is poorly put together. Like a really great engine put in a car with poor handling and poor brakes.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> All of this time I was looking to upgrade my amp but upgrading the dac might be a better use of money, especially for my phones (see sig) thats why i ask.
> Edit: my only worry about the nfb12 is the possibility that it just flashes a dual wolfson chip to attract buyers but the dac as a whole is poorly put together. Like a really great engine put in a car with poor handling and poor brakes.


 

 Scannon - Not sure if it helps, but I bought my NFB-12 as an upgrade to my E7/E9 combo (which I see that you own).  For my cans (DT880 at the time), MS1i and HD600 now, the NFB-12 was a good sized upgrade for me.  More body, depth and a cleaner sound.  I've also paired the NFB-12 with my PortaTube (via the DAC-out RCAs), and it becomes a very nice sounding combination.
   
  It is on the warmish side of completely neutral - but I really like it.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





brooko said:


> Scannon - Not sure if it helps, but I bought my NFB-12 as an upgrade to my E7/E9 combo (which I see that you own).  For my cans (DT880 at the time), MS1i and HD600 now, the NFB-12 was a good sized upgrade for me.  More body, depth and a cleaner sound.  I've also paired the NFB-12 with my PortaTube (via the DAC-out RCAs), and it becomes a very nice sounding combination.
> 
> It is on the warmish side of completely neutral - but I really like it.


 


  Thank you for throwing in a few words about your experience.  I have only one qualm about the nfb-12, and that is that it will be too "warm" and not "detailed" enough.
   
  So while I guess I have nothing against a warm sound signature, in my experience warmth has always been added at the cost of detail.  
   
  Do you feel the nfb12 is detailed, or do you think that the warmth impedes any detail?


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Thank you for throwing in a few words about your experience.  I have only one qualm about the nfb-12, and that is that it will be too "warm" and not "detailed" enough.
> 
> So while I guess I have nothing against a warm sound signature, in my experience warmth has always been added at the cost of detail.
> 
> Do you feel the nfb12 is detailed, or do you think that the warmth impedes any detail?


 

 This was what worried me first time I heard it - as on the default filter setting, I really thought I had bought a lemon.  However once I got my system set up properly, and got a few hours on the amp, for me all those fears dissipated.
   
  My current set-up is:
  PC > Coax > NFB-12 > HD600
  Filter setting is 4 x oversampling. minimum phase soft-knee filter
  I use Linux - but run Foobar via wine, and have foobar set-up with the sox resampler to 24/96.  My source files are either 16/44.1 standard redbook (my own rips), or hi-res 24/96 FLAC files.
   
  With this set-up, I find the resolution definitely superior to the E7/E9 and have no issues with detail.


----------



## eclipes

thats pretty much the settings im using with my NFB-12. Only difference is that I'm using optical input and running it to my monitors. With 4 x oversampling. minimum phase soft-knee filter setting, everything is really balanced. You can still feel the warmth in the music but the clarity is still there, best of two worlds.

  
  Quote: 





brooko said:


> This was what worried me first time I heard it - as on the default filter setting, I really thought I had bought a lemon.  However once I got my system set up properly, and got a few hours on the amp, for me all those fears dissipated.
> 
> My current set-up is:
> PC > Coax > NFB-12 > HD600
> ...


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> All of this time I was looking to upgrade my amp but upgrading the dac might be a better use of money, especially for my phones (see sig) thats why i ask.
> Edit: my only worry about the nfb12 is the possibility that it just flashes a dual wolfson chip to attract buyers but the dac as a whole is poorly put together. Like a really great engine put in a car with poor handling and poor brakes.


 
  You are throwing around alot of opinions, "poorly put together" about the NFB12 without any experience with it. Most folks who own them, feel they are an incredible unit for the price. Adjustable digital filters, Dual Wolfsen 8741s, one of the best class A amp sections, multiple power supplies. This unit is built like a tank, looks and sounds fantastic, and for $240 shipped is untouchable, nothing comes close at this price.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





satwilson said:


> You are throwing around alot of opinions, "poorly put together" about the NFB12 without any experience with it. Most folks who own them, feel they are an incredible unit for the price. Adjustable digital filters, Dual Wolfsen 8741s, one of the best class A amp sections, multiple power supplies. This unit is built like a tank, looks and sounds fantastic, and for $240 shipped is untouchable, nothing comes close at this price.


 


  You misunderstand me; I was soliciting opinions, not "throwing" them around.
   
  Sometimes manufacturers poorly implement high quality components and parts into their products and it completely undermines that quality of the parts they are using.  For a product that is supposedly being sold for cheaper than it could be, this is a reasonable qualm to have before spending so much money and it would be nice to stir up discussion of this issue so that I can get opinions from people who actually own the device.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





brooko said:


> With this set-up, I find the resolution definitely superior to the E7/E9 and have no issues with detail.


 

  
  This is the one necessary thing for me.  For my headphones, I don't think the amp will need to be much of an upgrade, the E9 is already a very powerful amp.  However it will be good that the output impedance of the nfb12 is much much lower than the e9. 
   
  But most of the upgrade needs to come from the dac.  At this point, the dac is the only way to extract more fidelity from my D2000s.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> This is the one necessary thing for me.  For my headphones, I don't think the amp will need to be much of an upgrade, the E9 is already a very powerful amp.  However it will be good that the output impedance of the nfb12 is much much lower than the e9.
> 
> But most of the upgrade needs to come from the dac.  At this point, the dac is the only way to extract more fidelity from my D2000s.


 

 Unfortunately I can't give you a definitive on the Denons.  I've only heard them once - and that was not with the NFB-12.  I can state clearly though that there was better resolution and depth (over the E9/E7 combo) with the DT880 and HD600.


----------



## scannon18

Well, it essentially comes down to the dacs in any case.  I am a firm believer in the denon drivers, the more you give them the more they give you.
   
  The only other dac/amp I'm really thinking about is the Yulong D100.  It's twice as expensive so I'm debating if it's worth the extra time and resources to acquire.  Apparently different sound signature than the nfb 12, supposedly extremely revealing, clinical, sort of what I was looking for


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> You misunderstand me; I was soliciting opinions, not "throwing" them around.
> 
> Sometimes manufacturers poorly implement high quality components and parts into their products and it completely undermines that quality of the parts they are using.  For a product that is supposedly being sold for cheaper than it could be, this is a reasonable qualm to have before spending so much money and it would be nice to stir up discussion of this issue so that I can get opinions from people who actually own the device.


 
  I do own the device. What makes you think the high quality components are poorly implemented? On the other hand, you solicited my advice and got it. Sorry if I misunderstood your intent, it just seemed as if your comments were your opinions that most people who own the NFB12 do not share. I understand more options can be extracted from the 8741 with programming, however as implemented and sold it is one of the best values in DAC/AMPs out there. Obviously you have read some of the post's that have been critical of the NFB12, however the majority of owners think this is a great unit. As regards "cheaper than it could be", it is made in China, most owners of Audio GD products consider them a great value, worth more than they cost. Are you familiar with the awards and credentials of the owner/designer Kingwa? I appreciate your desire "to stir up a discussion", however all of these concerns you have have been covered in previous posts as are comparisons to other units in their price range.


----------



## scannon18

Again, nothing explicitly makes me think the components are poorly implemented.  Just consider me the devil's advocate on this issue. I've read this entire thread, and I wasn't only paying attention to the negative comments.  
   
  I'm sure Kingwa is well qualified, this isn't meant to be an attack on anyone's competence.  It really comes down to the fact that I have never heard this device and have no chance to hear this device until I put down $240 and I am reasonably apprehensive. 
   
  In any case this doesn't really bother me anymore.  I'm willing to believe that it's well "put together."  I've got another small reason for hesitation: it may sound too warm.  But apparently that's not an issue, either.


----------



## eclipes

did you look at the Audio GD NFB 3.1? i believe it should be the sound character that you're looking for and nothing to worry about poorly implemented parts. Pure quality dedicated dac.
  
  Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Well, it essentially comes down to the dacs in any case.  I am a firm believer in the denon drivers, the more you give them the more they give you.
> 
> The only other dac/amp I'm really thinking about is the Yulong D100.  It's twice as expensive so I'm debating if it's worth the extra time and resources to acquire.  Apparently different sound signature than the nfb 12, supposedly extremely revealing, clinical, sort of what I was looking for


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Again, nothing explicitly makes me think the components are poorly implemented.  Just consider me the devil's advocate on this issue. I've read this entire thread, and I wasn't only paying attention to the negative comments.
> 
> I'm sure Kingwa is well qualified, this isn't meant to be an attack on anyone's competence.  It really comes down to the fact that I have never heard this device and have no chance to hear this device until I put down $240 and I am reasonably apprehensive.
> 
> In any case this doesn't really bother me anymore.  I'm willing to believe that it's well "put together."  I've got another small reason for hesitation: it may sound too warm.  But apparently that's not an issue, either.


 

 Scannon18, it's very well made.  Quality parts and workmanship throughout and nothing feels or looks cheap.
   
  You have to take into consideration that it's an entry level product that contains both a quality, modern, name brand Wolfson DAC and a powerful headphone amp, with enough adjustability (9 way digital filters) to tweak it to your desire - and the different settings are audible.
   
  But as an entry level product, it doesn't implement the DACs to their fullest (uses hardware mode vs software mode), which is fair.  These DACs are used in much more expensive equipment, and it costs more to add the components to implement in SW mode.  It's just a price/cost vs capability tradeoff.
   
  The amp is powerful and can drive 600ohm cans and even my orthodynamic HE-5LE's without going past 12 'oclock.  But the HP amp portion is quite warm, treble is rolled off, and doesn't have the detail/clarity of more expensive amps.  If it did, it would be that much greater bang for your buck, but even as is, I think it's a great value.  The HP amp can hold you over until you get something better, but I do strongly believe you're missing something if all you use is the NFB-12 HP amp.
   
  The DAC is capable of sounding quite a bit better going out to other amps.
   
  Then again, if you like less detailed, rolled off highs that will tame overly analytical cans or onces with overaugmented highs, the HP out might be good for you as well.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> did you look at the Audio GD NFB 3.1? i believe it should be the sound character that you're looking for and nothing to worry about poorly implemented parts. Pure quality dedicated dac.


 


  Yes I was looking at this.  However, it is about $100 more and while the headphone amp of the nfb12 isn't necessary perhaps for my headphones, I might grab new headphones that will need it.  Apparently the amp is very versatile.  

  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> Scannon18, it's very well made.  Quality parts and workmanship throughout and nothing feels or looks cheap.
> 
> You have to take into consideration that it's an entry level product that contains both a quality, modern, name brand Wolfson DAC and a powerful headphone amp, with enough adjustability (9 way digital filters) to tweak it to your desire - and the different settings are audible.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes, apparently it synergizes well with Denons.  But I will probably upgrade the amp to the objective desktop amp, once it is released.  Thanks for the comment, I will probably use this dac/amp  and spend the difference on new headphones.  Plus I can run the Nfb12 to my E9 and see which I like.  I really don't think the denons suffer from a low damping factor as much as other headphones might.
   
   
  EDIT:  I just want to thank everyone for all of the comments relating to the nfb 12.  As is somewhat apparent, I do not entirely know what I am looking for, and because of what headphones I plan on buying in the future this decision can swing in a lot of directions.  But as it stands, thanks primarily to you guys, I probably will get the nfb 12.


----------



## satwilson

Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> Yes I was looking at this.  However, it is about $100 more and while the headphone amp of the nfb12 isn't necessary perhaps for my headphones, I might grab new headphones that will need it.  Apparently the amp is very versatile.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



 The NFB12 will make you happy. Only possible upgrade, O2, not for me.


----------



## scannon18

Now, is it the headphone amp or the dac that is responsible for the "reduced soundstage" i've read so much about?
   
  Not that reduced soundstage is scaring me away from this thing, it's probably an overblown claim.  it seems to me it would be an amp thing but I know so little about all of this


----------



## captouch

scannon18 said:


> Now, is it the headphone amp or the dac that is responsible for the "reduced soundstage" i've read so much about?
> 
> Not that reduced soundstage is scaring me away from this thing, it's probably an overblown claim.  it seems to me it would be an amp thing but I know so little about all of this




Amp I'd say, because the DAC output on other amps seems to have good soundstage.

One thing I'll say - the amp section puts out some pretty powerful/weighty bass. More so than any other amp of mine.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  Hmm, interesting.  I would love for some measurements on this device, it's too bad nwavguy doesn't have a write-up for the nfb12 on his blog.  In any case I ultimately plan on changing the amp.  But I really enjoy soundstage.  I believe the soundstage of my headphones is slightly reduced through the E7/E9 combo compared to just the E7.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> did you look at the Audio GD NFB 3.1? i believe it should be the sound character that you're looking for and nothing to worry about poorly implemented parts. Pure quality dedicated dac.


 
   
  I ended up picking up a used 3.1 from a local member.  Thanks for pointing me in the right direction it's a huge improvement from my E7.


----------



## yodanyo

Hi all New here to the forums but have been following for a while. I purchased the ordinary NFB-12 from Pacific Valve and have the D2000 so if u had questions I could try to answer some of them scannon.I dont know how useful I would be since I'm not a "true audiophile" rather than a bored student that had some cash in the summer ha.


----------



## eclipes

did you buy it from the sales forum here? if you did then we were probably looking at the same unit but the buyer resisted in shipping international for me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. But glad you like the 3.1 
   
  Quote: 





scannon18 said:


> I ended up picking up a used 3.1 from a local member.  Thanks for pointing me in the right direction it's a huge improvement from my E7.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





eclipes said:


> did you buy it from the sales forum here? if you did then we were probably looking at the same unit but the buyer resisted in shipping international for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's possible, when I was looking there were a few units from a few different people being sold.  I happened to live in the vicinity of one of them and so I jumped at the prospect of not paying any shipping and not having to wait for delivery.   Haha, I'm sorry if I swiped the one you wanted, especially since I had only starting looking at these at your suggestion.  But I am sure there is another one being sold you can buy.  
   
  In the meantime, I am sure the nfb 12 is a wonderful dac.  I do not know the extent to which the 3.1 would be an improvement because I have not heard a 12.1 .  But it probably isn't that large.


----------



## dwinnert

I have owned the NFB-12 since last November......I love this DAC......
   
  I also love this thread...it makes me giggle.


----------



## dwinnert

BTW....does everyones nfb-12 make a slight click when powered on? I assume it's a relay.......


----------



## Tilpo

dwinnert said:


> BTW....does everyones nfb-12 make a slight click when powered on? I assume it's a relay.......



Yep.

Kingwa said it wasn't harmful, so I don't really worry about it.
Maybe it's a slight DC offset?


----------



## KimLaroux

Received my NFB-12 yesterday. It's my first move from PC audio. I expected an improvement, but nothing like this. I'm seriously impressed. Been grinning like a kid at Christmas morning. At this rate I'll be going trough the seven thousands songs in my library just too hear what they _really_ sound like. It's amazing how it turns the most boring music into a master piece. The clarity, the detail extraction, the sound stage, the bass and treble extension... I can't believe what I've been missing. But for me, the best improvement is the black background. I always had noise from my PC sound card and it was fatiguing even when listening to quiet passages in symphonies. The NFB-12 has no noise up to around 11 pm on the dial, which is just way too loud on my Shure anyways. I plugged my speakers into the analog out and even with the dial at 100%, I can't hear noise trough them. Could the noise only be from the built-in amp?


----------



## nigeljames

Congrats on your purchase. Audio-gd do make some stunning gear


----------



## dwinnert

Gratz! 
   
  I am only using the nfb-12 on my PC, but have thought of moving it out to the living room.....I like the sound so much it might replace my HRT MSII+/Schiit Asgard for DAC/HP duties......As for noise, using Grado's I never go past 10 and have yet to hear noise.....so just now I cranked to 1 o'clock between two tracks and it was still silent to my old ears. I have about 200 hours on it...if that means anything.
   
  Enjoy....Audio-GD makes the most under appreciated DAC's........
  
  Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> Received my NFB-12 yesterday. It's my first move from PC audio. I expected an improvement, but nothing like this. I'm seriously impressed. Been grinning like a kid at Christmas morning. At this rate I'll be going trough the seven thousands songs in my library just too hear what they _really_ sound like. It's amazing how it turns the most boring music into a master piece. The clarity, the detail extraction, the sound stage, the bass and treble extension... I can't believe what I've been missing. But for me, the best improvement is the black background. I always had noise from my PC sound card and it was fatiguing even when listening to quiet passages in symphonies. The NFB-12 has no noise up to around 11 pm on the dial, which is just way too loud on my Shure anyways. I plugged my speakers into the analog out and even with the dial at 100%, I can't hear noise trough them. Could the noise only be from the built-in amp?


----------



## Tilpo

Just changed to TOSLINK instead of USB. 

I set my computer to output to both USB and optical at the same time at the same volume, both at 24/96. I asked my brother to switch between optical and USB without me knowing which was which (blind testing). As I suspected I was unable to detect any differences. Neither was I able to detect differences when I switched between them myself. 
This means that most likely there is no audible difference between Optical and USB on this device. The possibility exists that there are subtle (but audible) differences, which I failed to detect due to expectation bias, i.e. I expected to find no difference, which might lead to not hearing any differences. However, I believe that it is more likely that those who do believe there is a difference are affected by a placebo. 

I just wanted to throw this out here, since I don't want anyone to be misled into thinking that somehow optical would be better than USB. There is a technical difference, but it is questionable whether this is audible.


----------



## dwinnert

I'm doing USB on the PC.....I have TOSLINK but am too lazy to give it a whirl......
   

  
  Quote: 





tilpo said:


> Just changed to TOSLINK instead of USB.
> I set my computer to output to both USB and optical at the same time at the same volume, both at 24/96. I asked my brother to switch between optical and USB without me knowing which was which (blind testing). As I suspected I was unable to detect any differences. Neither was I able to detect differences when I switched between them myself.
> This means that most likely there is no audible difference between Optical and USB on this device. The possibility exists that there are subtle (but audible) differences, which I failed to detect due to expectation bias, i.e. I expected to find no difference, which might lead to not hearing any differences. However, I believe that it is more likely that those who do believe there is a difference are affected by a placebo.
> I just wanted to throw this out here, since I don't want anyone to be misled into thinking that somehow optical would be better than USB. There is a technical difference, but it is questionable whether this is audible.


----------



## KimLaroux

I found the USB cable to be remarkably loose into the connector of the NFB-12. I can easily move the plug by 10 degrees left and right or up and down. I never saw a plug that loose. Is this common to all the units?
   
  Also I need a longer USB cable, the one I've got is barely long enough. Any recommendations? Is there known issues with a certain type of cable? Is it imperative that I get one not too long, and with a ferrite core at the NFB-12's end?


----------



## Tilpo

kimlaroux said:


> I found the USB cable to be remarkably loose into the connector of the NFB-12. I can easily move the plug by 10 degrees left and right or up and down. I never saw a plug that loose. Is this common to all the units?
> 
> Also I need a longer USB cable, the one I've got is barely long enough. Any recommendations? Is there known issues with a certain type of cable? Is it imperative that I get one not too long, and with a ferrite core at the NFB-12's end?



I certainly don't have the problems you describe with the USB cable.

Getting a longer USB cable is fine. Literally anything is fine, it has to be absolutely terrible to cause loss of information. 
Rather than getting another cable, I would suggest getting an extension cable. This will most likely cost as much (if not less), and be more practical since you can also use it for other applications as well when you don't use it for the NFB-12 anymore in the future. Here's a pretty decent looking one for $2


----------



## dwinnert

Your cable might be odd.....mine fits tight.
   
  I get all my cables from Monoprice high quality USB cables for the price of a Big Mac....
  
  Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> I found the USB cable to be remarkably loose into the connector of the NFB-12. I can easily move the plug by 10 degrees left and right or up and down. I never saw a plug that loose. Is this common to all the units?
> 
> Also I need a longer USB cable, the one I've got is barely long enough. Any recommendations? Is there known issues with a certain type of cable? Is it imperative that I get one not too long, and with a ferrite core at the NFB-12's end?


----------



## mac336

Is there any website I can order one of these off of besides the audio gd website?
   
  And which one is better, the NFB 12 or NFB 12.1?


----------



## steve2151

The NFB 12.1 has the 9 filters accessible from the front panel with switches. The NFB 12 still has the filters, but you have to open up the case and insert jumpers to change the settings. Everything else is identical. Just pay the extra $15 and save yourself the effort.


----------



## KimLaroux

Anyone wants to play Spot The Difference?
   
  Before :

   
  After :

   
  The difference is the corner of a packing peanut.


----------



## Tilpo

kimlaroux said:


> Anyone wants to play Spot The Difference?
> 
> Before :
> 
> ...



Nice, a dimmer LED does seem like a good thing to do.
Why do these things have to have a super bright LED anyways? I can't imagine them being cheaper than regular LEDs.


----------



## KimLaroux

Meh, I don't know, but it seems to be the norm. There's something about "bigger is better", and it's sadly applied to everything. Super bright LEDs used to be more expensive than regular LEDs, but since bright blue LEDs are over-hyped, you see them on everything nowadays. It's ridiculous though. Those LEDs are supposed to be indicator lights, not flash lights. I miss the good old square, washed-off color LEDs found on old electronic appliance.
   
  I opened the case to simply change the LED, but I found that is was glued into place with black epoxy. I had to be a bit more creative at this point.


----------



## mac336

Anyeone have any experience comparing the NFB 12 DAC to bifrost; or how does the NFB compare to asgard or lyr amp wise?


----------



## captouch

In case anyone cares - the weaknesses of the HP out with the Hd650's turned out to be strengths with the 5LE's. NFB-12 helps calm the highs, fill out the mids, and add heft to the bottom.

Even more pleased with the NFB-12 now!


----------



## khaine1711

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 5LE supposed to be the darker Hifiman ortho and the He5 is actually the very bright one. How does the brightness of the 5LE compared to your 880.
   
  Also how did the nfb 12 amp section handles the Hifiman ortho, compared to your EF5 (IIRC you have one =p) or compared to some speaker amps. I've heard that the old gen Hifiman orthos (he5, 5le, 6) are quite power-hungry.
  
  Quote: 





captouch said:


> In case anyone cares - the weaknesses of the HP out with the Hd650's turned out to be strengths with the 5LE's. NFB-12 helps calm the highs, fill out the mids, and add heft to the bottom.
> Even more pleased with the NFB-12 now!


----------



## mac336

It would be a big help if anyone using the NFB-12 to power the hd-650 or HE-500 could give me their opinions on how these headphones sound/pair with the NFB-12


----------



## khaine1711

I'm having both my Nfb-12 and a hd600 on my table. However I mostly use audio-gd's own amp (the C2.2). Also got several chances to try the hd650 on both. 
   
  My opinion is the nfb12 wasn't really a good match for the hd600/650, but wasn't bad either. I think it mates better with the hd600 rather than the hd650 (please note that I myself prefer the hd600 to the 650 so I may be a bit biased). It worked well as a portable/office setup, or something to use until you got funds for bigger, badder components.
   
  The amp part is very beefy, but I think it's the dac part of the nfb12 is bottlenecking the hd600/650. No ideas about the he-500, I'm dying to try one, but the shipping cost and custom tax to my location is ... painful. 
  
  Quote: 





mac336 said:


> It would be a big help if anyone using the NFB-12 to power the hd-650 or HE-500 could give me their opinions on how these headphones sound/pair with the NFB-12


----------



## AF115

Hi.
  I'm another happy owner of a NFB-12. 
  After reading around and having done some tests I'm currently using it set to *[size=medium][size=x-small]4X oversampling , [/size][/size]**[size=medium][size=x-small]Minimum phase 'soft-knee' filter.[/size][/size]*
  I'm curious to know which filter other owners prefer (and why).
  Thanks.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





khaine1711 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 5LE supposed to be the darker Hifiman ortho and the He5 is actually the very bright one. How does the brightness of the 5LE compared to your 880.
> 
> Also how did the nfb 12 amp section handles the Hifiman ortho, compared to your EF5 (IIRC you have one =p) or compared to some speaker amps. I've heard that the old gen Hifiman orthos (he5, 5le, 6) are quite power-hungry.


 
   
  I heard the 5LE is darker than the HE-5, but the HE-5 was very bright from what I understand.  So darker relative to HE-5, but still bright to me.  But the 880 is also bright to my ears (though I haven't listened to them recently) - but I don't recall the 880 being sibilant at all, which the 5LE can get with certain music.
   
  The NFB-12 amp drives to louder than I'd want to listen to at 10 or 11 o'clock, so volume isn't an issue.  I think it's quite powerful.  Volume wise, the EF5 probably is sitting a notch lower at 9 or 10 o'clock most times, but not a big difference.  This is with High gain setting on both.
   
  I'd put it this way: If the music were perfectly recorded, and especially if it were folk/jazz, I'd probably opt for EF5 because the clarity and dynamics are better.  If the recording needed smoothing or it was crunchy guitar/hard stuff, I'd probably go with NFB12 to make it less fatiguing.  And again, the NFB12 does have noticeably more bass weight - so that's a factor as well.


----------



## mac336

the NFB-12 came in today.  I have to say, I'm pretty impressed.  listening to them with the hd-650.  I've been comparing the NFB-12 to the HDP extensively and honestly they sound pretty much the same.  Only able to make out differences when doing direct comparisons immediately after each other.  If I had to identify differences between the 2 amps, maybe the NFB has a tad thicker sound with a ever so slight roll off treble and tad emphasis on the bass. The HDP is a tad thinner, maybe alittle bit more precise.  But these differences IMO are so obscure and are only able to be heard when comparing short 10 second clips of music immediately after each other.  Overall I am pretty impressed with the NFB and agree with others who say its probably the best budget amp/dac


----------



## haejuk

Does anyone have any comments about how the NFB-12 sounds with D2000?  I am thinking of upgrading from E7/E9.  How do the mids sound?  Do the rolled off highs help or hinder the D2000 in your experience?  Better soundstage than E7/E9?  Any comments to help me decide would be helpful!


----------



## mac336

I dont think any amp/dac combo would change/improve the AH-d2000 much let alone switching from E9/E7 to NFB-12.  In my experience, they were perfectly fine straight from the pc.  I thought my amp gave it a tiny improvement but it wasnt justified by the price of buying an amp (just my opinion).   I would save your money and buy another headphone if your looking for any sort of improvement or something different in your listening experience.   


haejuk said:


> Does anyone have any comments about how the NFB-12 sounds with D2000?  I am thinking of upgrading from E7/E9.  How do the mids sound?  Do the rolled off highs help or hinder the D2000 in your experience?  Better soundstage than E7/E9?  Any comments to help me decide would be helpful!


----------



## scannon18

My advice is to do what I did: keep the e9 because it is a fabulous amp and the denons are easy to drive and upgrade the dac. I bought a dedicated dac and thought it was well worth the hundreds of dollars. YMMV.


----------



## haejuk

The main thing I like about the NFB-12 is that I can hook up my PS3 to the optical and my computer to the USB and switch between the inputs on the face of the device (for $240 I haven't been able to find that feature anywhere).  I would mostly be using the amp in the NFB-12 for gaming and watching video, I have a hybrid tube amp for music.  Most of my music collection is lossy (320k mp3), so I don't really plan to move up to other headphones (I am afraid they will reveal the poor quality of my source files).  The only changes I plan to do for headphones is getting lawton angle pads for my D2000 and maybe wood cups further down the line.  If you really think I wouldn't be able to hear the difference then this sounds like the perfect desktop setup for me.  I am concerned about the grain people have mentioned, but by the sound of things I wouldn't be able to notice it, right?
   
  Just found the Matrix Cube that seems to have the features I want that the NFB-12 also has, but the power output specs and headphone out impedance aren't published for it.


----------



## mac336

I have a pair of HD-650 and have used the nuforce HDP and NFB-12 with it.  i have listened to everything from flac to music on youtube.  i have not noticed any grain yet unless its a poor quality youtube file, but that sounds bad on anything.  All my ipod songs are not FLAC, and they all sound good to me from my 650s.  Ofcourse the FLAC sounds better, but I do not find the "lossy" files sounding grainy at all; in fact, they sound pretty darn good.  I would highly recommend the NFB-12; before I bought it I read that its one of the best budget buys and can compete with many things priced 2 or 3 times higher than it.  After listening to it myself, I would have to agree with them.


----------



## Tilpo

I concur,

Although I definitely do have a preference to using FLAC files, about half of my music collection is in mp3 (although nothing less than 192kbps). The lossy half of my collection gets as much plays as my lossless half. As far as sound quality is concerned you probably won't be hearing any difference when you're just listening. If you directly compare the two (esp. non-blind) you might hear a difference, but even that still doesn't mean you can't enjoy both an equal amount. 

On a related note, you mentioned that you already have an E7/E9 combo. In that case I don't recommend upgrading to the NFB-12. While it might be an upgrade, it probably won't be the best way to invest your money unless you can sell the FiiO pair for a good price. I recon the improvements will be small, and unless you directly compare the two you might not even notice the difference.
These are just my expectations though, I have never heard the E7/E9 combo nor have I heard the D2000. All my knowledge is derived from what little measurements I have seen and from anecdotes of fellow head-fiers.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> I concur,
> Although I definitely do have a preference to using FLAC files, about half of my music collection is in mp3 (although nothing less than 192kbps). The lossy half of my collection gets as much plays as my lossless half. As far as sound quality is concerned you probably won't be hearing any difference when you're just listening. If you directly compare the two (esp. non-blind) you might hear a difference, but even that still doesn't mean you can't enjoy both an equal amount.
> On a related note, you mentioned that you already have an E7/E9 combo. In that case I don't recommend upgrading to the NFB-12. While it might be an upgrade, it probably won't be the best way to invest your money unless you can sell the FiiO pair for a good price. I recon the improvements will be small, and unless you directly compare the two you might not even notice the difference.
> These are just my expectations though, I have never heard the E7/E9 combo nor have I heard the D2000. All my knowledge is derived from what little measurements I have seen and from anecdotes of fellow head-fiers.


 

 I had both.  IMO, the NFB-12 was quite a big step up.  I think it was mainly the DAC from the E7 holding the combo back.


----------



## scannon18

Yes, for the above poster with the denons, let me just reiterate that your amping needs are taken care of the by the E9.  The E9 is a great amp for the denons.  If you really want to improve the sound quality you have to start thinking strictly about *dacs. *
   
  I think if the above poster (haejuk) buys the 12.1 most of the improvement will come from the dac.  As Brooko said above, the E7 is really the weak link in the E7/E9 combo.  The E7 is a nice dac, sure, and I used mine happily for over a year.  But ultimately I had to upgrade and I'm happy I did.   My advice would be to maybe look at dedicated dacs in the <$300 range in addition to the 12.1 because the extra powerful amp on the 12.1 isn't exactly necessary.  Also, lots of dacs feature switchable inputs.  Be sure to take a look at the "For Sale" forum here, there are lots of good dacs at very reduced prices.
   
   
   
  The Denons are relatively revealing headphones, I have always been able to tell a difference between source components when listening to my pair.


----------



## haejuk

I think Scannon is probably on the right track.  I have found a nice amp for the D2000 on the used forum, but I am holding off on buying it because I am waiting to find a good dedicated DAC with the features I am looking for.  Any dedicated DAC suggestions with both USB and optical for around $150?


----------



## mac336

you might be able to find the NFB-12 for just $20 or $30 more.  I highly recomend paying the extra $ for it


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





haejuk said:


> I think Scannon is probably on the right track.  I have found a nice amp for the D2000 on the used forum, but I am holding off on buying it because I am waiting to find a good dedicated DAC with the features I am looking for.  Any dedicated DAC suggestions with both USB and optical for around $150?


 
   
  I've been thinking about it, and if you want to upgrade the dac _and_ the amp then the nfb 12.1 might be the way to go.  Which amp were you looking at for the denons?  Because for $250 the nfb 12.1 does give you the features you want and, though I haven't heard it, has received great praise for its dac and amp.  It's just my opinion that the amp will not be a huge improvement over the e9, but please note that that is an assumption.
   
  For $150 I am drawing a blank so far as dacs with optical and usb.  Similar blank at the $250 price point, unless you are willing to buy used.  My dac (nfb 3.1) has switchable inputs and is a dedicated dac that I could really only afford by buying used in addition to forgoing a new amp.  The DIY market is another place to look.
   
  Audio-gd is a solid company.  There are deals to be had so far as dacs are concerned but if you decide to go with the 12.1 you're bound to be getting a quality product.


----------



## haejuk

I actually decided to try something else, and if it doesn't work out sell it and go for the NFB-12.  I found a Meier Corda Arietta (old and discontinued, but seems to have a good reputation) on the used forum that should synergize very well with my Denons.  I also found a Hot Audio DAC WOW Dual that will allow me to switch between optical and usb.  I did stretch my budget by a little bit, but that just means that if I don't like it I can sell and have enough for the NFB-12


----------



## KimLaroux

I was bored a few days ago so I decided to take my NFB-12 apart.
   
  It's impressive how easy it is to disassemble the unit. Only a few screws and everything slides right off. Well, almost. The ribbon cables inside are glued to the side of the case using what I guess is black hot melt glue. When I opened the case to change settings the first time, I mistook this glue for black epoxy. I'm glad it's not epoxy after all, because if it was, it would be impossible to take the board out of the case without a soldering iron.
   
  I noticed a square of double-sided tape/foam on the board between the power inlet and the transformer. Being a bit too curious, I took it off. It's actually covering some jumpers used to change the unit voltage between 120v and 240v. My unit is set for 120v. I checked the pictures on Audio-gd's website and noticed that the unit pictured is 240v. So for anyone who would need to change the voltage settings of their NFB-12, here's a little montage I did : 
   

   
  The settings are actually printed on the board, but it's not very clear. For 120v, you link the two pads aligned with the "110v" prints, same thing for both prints.. For 240v, you link the two pads aligned with the "220v" prints, and you let the other two pads open.
   
  I then proceeded to cleaning the whole board with isopropyl alcohol and a fine brush. It's shocking how dirty the inside of the unit is. I actually had to clean it 3 times over before reaching an acceptable level of cleanness. The board seems to be covered with a sticky dust. I'm thinking it's dust that stuck to the soldering paste during the building process.
   
  Here are some pictures of the underside of the board. Sorry for the crappy quality and the flash, I did the best I could with my phone's camera.
   


   
  Still being bored at this point, and having learned that the glue was not epoxy after all, I decided to replace the LED. I used an old, low intensity orange LED. No soldering was necessary, only a hot glue gun. I also decided to do something about the heat coming from the unit. Not that the NFB-12 is overly hot, it's just that I can't sleep at night knowing that there's a simple fix to lower the temperature inside the case : let it breathe. Studying the build, I noticed that the PCB sits high inside the case while leaving noticeable gaps around the walls. Using simple fluid mechanics, I concluded that I needed to drill holes at the lowest point and the highest points inside the case. The first step was to drill a series of 1/4" holes on a strait line along the middle of the unit, right trough the bottom of the case. Since heat is generated (or wasted, depending on your point of view) just about everywhere inside the unit, drilling holes bellow the circuit board and in the middle of it allow the heat from under the board to slip in the gap around it and go up, being replaced by cool air. This way, even the heat from the surface mounted components is dissipated. A lot of heat is also wasted out of the transformer and the PSU, dissipated by the multiple heat sinks on top of the board. All this heat goes up and out trough the gaps around the top cover. I placed washers between the cover and the case under every screw. This way there's a 1mm gap all around the case that allow warm air to flow out. PLEASE don't use metal washers if you plan on doing that!! I don't want to be responsible for a washer dropping inside your NFB-12 and shorting the hell out of everything it gets in contacts with. I used rubber washers, anything not conductive would do.
   


   
  The difference in temperature after this simple modification is impressive. Now the case is barely warm. I don't think it can even melt chocolate anymore. And it just looks more serious without the silly I'm-gonna-blind-you blue LED.


----------



## AF115

Thanks, KimLaroux!
  Your solution of drilling the bottom of the case is simply brilliant!
  Actually the impressive heat of NFB-12 worried me a bit in the beginning.
  I've been reassured by Kingwa about its harmless.
  Actually I found that most of the heat is generated by the voltage regulators beside the the transformer (about 50-55° C).
  Moreover, when you use the USB input, the temperature is higher than when you use the S/PDIF or opt inputs.
  And the use of the headphones doesn't raise the temperarure as much as I expected.


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





af115 said:


> Thanks, KimLaroux!
> Your solution of drilling the bottom of the case is simply brilliant!
> Actually the impressive heat of NFB-12 worried me a bit in the beginning.
> I've been reassured by Kingwa about its harmless.
> ...


 

 It's class A, so the louder you play the LESS heat is released.


----------



## mac336

Is that true?
   
  Class A amplifiers release more heat when playing at lower volumes?
   
  Because that would explain alot
  
  Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> It's class A, so the louder you play the LESS heat is released.


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





mac336 said:


> Is that true?
> 
> Class A amplifiers release more heat when playing at lower volumes?
> 
> Because that would explain alot


 

 Class A amps run at CONTINUOUS full power, always.  If you're not putting that power to work, it's wasted as heat.  No/low music, more heat.  More music power less heat.


----------



## mac336

How would the NFB perform if I were to use it solely as a DAC; I would be using a tube amp such as a lyr or bottlehead as the amp


----------



## captouch

mac336 said:


> How would the NFB perform if I were to use it solely as a DAC; I would be using a tube amp such as a lyr or bottlehead as the amp




I use it that way too with my Crack and EF5 - sounds very good to me and you can play around with the 9 digital filters


----------



## mac336

How exactly do the filters alter the sound?
   
  Mine doesnt have the switches So I would have to open it up and mess with it.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





mac336 said:


> How exactly do the filters alter the sound?
> 
> Mine doesnt have the switches So I would have to open it up and mess with it.


 

 Detail/clarity, warmth, etc.  Best to make sure yours have the switches internally (it will if it's a new shipment) - the early ones didn't have the ability to change the digital filters.


----------



## KimLaroux

I have the version with the filters selectable with jumpers. I tried all the filters while the unit was on and playing, but I seriously could not spot any difference. Do I have to restart the unit for the filters to get applied? Or restart playback?
   
  From the pictures I concluded that the 12.1 had the filter switches connected directly to the filter headers. So changing jumper positions on the 12 should be the same thing as flipping the switches on the 12.1... and audio-gd's website says the 12.1 does not need to be shut down to change the filters. 
   
  So am I doing something wrong, or is the difference between the filters that subtle?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> I have the version with the filters selectable with jumpers. I tried all the filters while the unit was on and playing, but I seriously could not spot any difference. Do I have to restart the unit for the filters to get applied? Or restart playback?
> 
> From the pictures I concluded that the 12.1 had the filter switches connected directly to the filter headers. So changing jumper positions on the 12 should be the same thing as flipping the switches on the 12.1... and audio-gd's website says the 12.1 does not need to be shut down to change the filters.
> 
> So am I doing something wrong, or is the difference between the filters that subtle?


 

 I always power mine down because I was afraid of shorting something by accident, but you're right - if you can change filters with front switches on 12.1, you should be able to with jumpers internally.
   
  I didn't try them all, but the difference between the default (2x brickwall, I think) and 8x min phase apodising wasn't subtle to me.  This was with DT880/600's - which are fairly detailed cans.


----------



## mac336

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I always power mine down because I was afraid of shorting something by accident, but you're right - if you can change filters with front switches on 12.1, you should be able to with jumpers internally.
> 
> I didn't try them all, but the difference between the default (2x brickwall, I think) and 8x min phase apodising wasn't subtle to me.  This was with DT880/600's - which are fairly detailed cans.


 

 How did the filters affect the sound?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





mac336 said:


> How did the filters affect the sound?


 

 The 8x min phase apodising enhanced detail, while default 2x brickwall I thought was soft and blended details into more amorphous sound.  I remember someone saying one of the 4x gave warmth as well as sufficient detail (but still not as much as 8x mentioned above), but I never got around to trying that one since I have to unscrew, unplug and reset jumpers.  Just too lazy to go back, but eventually will when I have more time.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





captouch said:


> The 8x min phase apodising enhanced detail, while default 2x brickwall I thought was soft and blended details into more amorphous sound.  I remember someone saying one of the 4x gave warmth as well as sufficient detail (but still not as much as 8x mentioned above), but I never got around to trying that one since I have to unscrew, unplug and reset jumpers.  Just too lazy to go back, but eventually will when I have more time.


 

 Yep - that was me.  I agree - the difference between the default and the 8x filters was definitely not subtle
   
  My favourites are the 4x Minimum Phase Soft Knee (nice mix of warmth and detail), and the 8x Minimum Phase Apodising.
   
  At the moment using the 4x - mainly because it does the job nicely for both my 325is and HD600s.  The 8x was almost too detailed with the 325is, and because my NFB-12 has the jumpers (not the external switches), it's a PITA to keep changing depending on the can I wanted to listen to.


----------



## captouch

brooko said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Agreed on PITA, sure wish the front switch option was available when I ordered mne.

Thanks for reminding me on the 4x you like. I'll try it out. I like all the detail I can get through my loudspeakers, but would trade some detail for warmth through HP out with mt 5LE's and DT880's.


----------



## Jupe

I'm curious what you guys think the first-run 12's are worth now; I've yet to be disappointed with mine, but I honestly don't know how much these filters change the overall sound. Now that money's tight I'm considering selling mine, but I have no idea what a fair price would be, now there are models with more filter options.


----------



## KimLaroux

Well it's still an NFB-12. Is it known what filter the first generation used? What if it's already one of the recommended ones?


----------



## AF115

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> Well it's still an NFB-12. Is it known what filter the first generation used? What if it's already one of the recommended ones?


 

 I asked to Audio-gd a few weeks ago.
  Their answer was: "The old NFB12 was setting at 2X oversampling, filter 3."
  That means  *[size=medium][size=x-small]2X oversampling , Linear phase 'brickwall' filter. [/size][/size]*


----------



## bhaishaki

Yes I'm one of those who had bought the first gen NFB-12 without filter changing option. It would be nealy impossible for a guy like me to open the cover and lift the pins to change the filter. It is too tiny when looked on the board.
   
  As for the sound I don't know how subtle or not the filter changes the sound but the description of 2x oversampling matches my experience. The music sort of feels blended. When I use my SFlo2 or Cowon i9 I find better seperation. While I'm not disappointed yet too I would have prefered a better separation the 4x or higher filter is said to be offering.
   
  Though it was a newly launched product at that time it was bought audio-gd should have thought about this potential differences in sound the filters could bring. I don't have any of my music in 192/24 not even much of 96/24. Some of the earlier posts indicate the DAC is setup to expect 192 Khz input. At least with this mind I'm not sure, but audio-gd should have thought about this option.


----------



## scannon18

Quote: 





bhaishaki said:


> Yes I'm one of those who had bought the first gen NFB-12 without filter changing option. It would be nealy impossible for a guy like me to open the cover and lift the pins to change the filter. It is too tiny when looked on the board.
> 
> As for the sound I don't know how subtle or not the filter changes the sound but the description of 2x oversampling matches my experience. The music sort of feels blended. When I use my SFlo2 or Cowon i9 I find better seperation. While I'm not disappointed yet too I would have prefered a better separation the 4x or higher filter is said to be offering.
> 
> Though it was a newly launched product at that time it was bought audio-gd should have thought about this potential differences in sound the filters could bring. I don't have any of my music in 192/24 not even much of 96/24. Some of the earlier posts indicate the DAC is setup to expect 192 Khz input. At least with this mind I'm not sure, but audio-gd should have thought about this option.


 
   
  I wouldn't feel too bad about the filter options.  Out of my nfb 3.1 I do not think I would hold up to an ABX blind test on filter settings, they all sound the same to me, except for an extremely tiny difference that I am willing to believe is psychological.
   
  I have not heard the 12.1, but out of the 3.1 the adjustable filter options seems a little unnecessary.


----------



## Tilpo

Don't worry too much about 192KHz sound. 

While 96KHz has some empirically proven benefits, in most cases performance at 192KHz is actually lower than at 96Hz.
And note that in both cases the added frequencies have no sonic benefit, since we can't hear those frequencies. The main advantages of higher sample rates lie in lower jitter (debatable) and better noise shaping. This means that there actually is no use in having 24/96 (or 192) music over 24/48 (or 44.1).


----------



## genclaymore

Does the NFB 12/12.1 have a Digital Filter setting for changing the sound signature to Neutral and Transparent? Maybe a Digital Filter thats close enough to it.


----------



## tme110

Are you sure it's class A?  The -10 isn't even class A.
  
  Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> It's class A, so the louder you play the LESS heat is released.


----------



## Makiah S

... I want one! The first couple of pages where a great read! I'm looking forward to getting into the nicer cans like HiFiMan He-500 and I'm excited to be apply to couple them [and others] with this amp


----------



## KimLaroux

I'm also doubting it's class A. No where on the web page does it say it's class A. Where do you guys got this information?
   
  It's certainly not push-pull anyways. The output stage looks more like a class B to me.


----------



## mrspeakers

Eh, sorry, that is my bad.  I said class A from memory, but I think I mixed it up with the Burson discrete class A (I have both... )
   
  The ACSS circuit is not the same as a classic A or AB design and it's quite late, so my brain isn't quite parsing the full circuit.  If I have some time this week I would like to think through how it's working as I've not looked at an ACSS in detail before.  It's nice the the publishes the schematics.  
   
  On another note, whatever problem I had with bass distortion has resolved itself.  I tried TOSLINK at Kingwa's request and somehow when I went back to the exact same setup that had bass distortion for months, the distortion was gone.  It sounds quite nice now, especially for the $...


----------



## IsoOctane

Dang, the right channel of my NFB-12 seems to be dying, it has gone mute a couple of times and then come back, now it has been silent for a while. Tested with various sources into both coaxial and optical inputs and a couple of headphones. Any ideas? Got it almost a year ago trough Audiophonics.fr.


----------



## genclaymore

I been thinking of using one as a dac, something like that scares me. As I sure the cost of shipping to send it to get repaired would be alot.


----------



## Tilpo

Maybe open it up and take a picture? Either some component in the left channel is broken, or, if you're lucky, it's just a wire that has come loose. 
Either way, unless you know what you're doing and have decent soldering skills, your best bet is to sent it Audio-GD for repairs.


----------



## mrspeakers

Audio-GD is starting to ship products with the new Tenor USB chip.  The 8802 really steps up the game with support for 88.2 and all the way to 192K (apparently with drivers) via USB...  Wonder when it will show up in the 12?


----------



## neddamttocs

Hopefully the have an add on or a kit that we can buy to upgrade the nfb12. I see that something is available for DACs in May but it doesn't say which ones.
  Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> Audio-GD is starting to ship products with the new Tenor USB chip.  The 8802 really steps up the game with support for 88.2 and all the way to 192K (apparently with drivers) via USB...  Wonder when it will show up in the 12?


----------



## IsoOctane

I checked the inside of my NFB-12, nothing obviously wrong in there. Also tested USB input and RCA output, that takes care of all the combinations I think. The left channel seems to have started distorting as well. Looks like there is a 1-year warranty from Audio-GD, anyone know if that also applies to units not directly purchased from them, or should I contact the reseller?


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





neddamttocs said:


> *Hopefully the have an add on or a kit that we can buy to upgrade the nfb12.* I see that something is available for DACs in May but it doesn't say which ones.


 


  Considering how the present USB driver is surface mount and soldered directly on the main board, I'd be quite impressed if they managed that...


----------



## AF115

Quote: 





mrspeakers said:


> Audio-GD is starting to ship products with the new Tenor USB chip.  The 8802 really steps up the game with support for 88.2 and all the way to 192K (apparently with drivers) via USB...  Wonder when it will show up in the 12?


 

 In Audio-gd's website the NFB-12 is not in the list of the DACs that can have that upgrade.
  And looking at the pictures the upgrade needs some DiY skills.
  But there are several Asynchronous USB external transports already available (e.g. WaveIo, Aqua, Hiface...) and more and more coming.


----------



## genclaymore

isooctane said:


> I checked the inside of my NFB-12, nothing obviously wrong in there. Also tested USB input and RCA output, that takes care of all the combinations I think. The left channel seems to have started distorting as well. Looks like there is a 1-year warranty from Audio-GD, anyone know if that also applies to units not directly purchased from them, or should I contact the reseller?




In fact I emailed Kingwa about, He told me as long you had the original user info. That you would still have warranty. But he said it was one year warranty. You can try to send it back to the reseller, then if the reseller doesn't help you. Kingwa should.


----------



## IsoOctane

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> In fact I emailed Kingwa about, He told me as long you had the original user info. That you would still have warranty. But he said it was one year warranty. You can try to send it back to the reseller, then if the reseller doesn't help you. Kingwa should.


 

 Sorry but what do you mean by "original user info"? Obviously I don't have any info with Audio-GD because I didn't deal with them. Anyway, I sent email to the reseller, let's see what they say. Also took a look at the options of sending it back to China, looks kind of intimidating with all the required customs forms etc, and it ain't exactly cheap either, especially if you want to have any kind of insurance on the parcel.


----------



## mrspeakers

Quote: 





af115 said:


> In Audio-gd's website the NFB-12 is not in the list of the DACs that can have that upgrade.
> And looking at the pictures the upgrade needs some DiY skills.
> But there are several Asynchronous USB external transports already available (e.g. WaveIo, Aqua, Hiface...) and more and more coming.


 

 Yes, but external SPDIF interfaces with good clocks cost 50-300% of the NFB 12.  I use the HiFace and the V-Link, which both perform very well.  
   
  Alas, as someone else noted, it will be a product update that isn't retrofittable, as the Tenor chip is on the main PCB.


----------



## KimLaroux

Their website seems to suggest that the new chip needs proprietary drivers. Which means it's not class compliant. Which means it probably doesn't work under Linux and OSX.
   
  Which just made their old products, the ones like the NFB-12 that will stay class compliant, their only options for users that don't use Window$ or Mac. I can't see how any self-respecting company would trade some of it's user base to add bigger numbers on the spec sheets of it's products.


----------



## FauDrei

...a quote from here:
   
_The TE8802 is a USB audio class 2 chip than can handle up to 24/192 without the need for drivers on Linux and OS X.  (Third party drivers are required for Windows)._
   
  Now, who is right here?


----------



## KimLaroux

Hmm, I seem to have been wrong. It turns out it's the other way around. Microsoft dumped support of the USB audio classes, that's why it needs drivers under Windows. It's actually supposed to work without drivers under Mac and Windows.
   
  My bad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Anyone has datasheets of the Tenor chips? I can't find them anywhere.


----------



## AF115

You can download the datasheets of the Tenor chips from the manufature's website, *Galaxy Far East Corporation*:  http://www.gfec.com.tw/tenor;jsessionid=3716E1269CF40555F14E29D41DDD341F


----------



## Enverex

Can anyone say how this (Audio-GD NFB-12.1) stacks up against the 2012 Matrix M-Stage USB? They are both similar prices and recommended for what seem the same headphones. Trying to decide what to purchase here to pair with my Q701's...


----------



## mac336

NFB12 is cheaper in that you can pick it up under $200 used (around 215 with shipping new i think).  and its an amp and DAC in one. 
   
  I liked mine paired with the hd650 and hd600.  great amp/dac for the price point IMO


----------



## Enverex

Quote: 





mac336 said:


> NFB12 is cheaper in that you can pick it up under $200 used (around 215 with shipping new i think).  and its an amp and DAC in one.
> 
> I liked mine paired with the hd650 and hd600.  great amp/dac for the price point IMO


 
   

 I'm in the UK so the chance of getting either second hand is remote (although I'd prefer new for Warranty reasons anyway). Plus the Matrix USB is a DAC as well. So that's both arguments out 
  I'm interested purely in a quality perspective (which is more transparent, keeps a wide soundstage, etc).


----------



## molika

how would the Audio-GD NFB-12 pair with the Audio Technica AD900s. Or is there a better/cheaper DAC to go with. Don't really need an amp for these cans I'm told.


----------



## Tilpo

molika said:


> how would the Audio-GD NFB-12 pair with the Audio Technica AD900s. Or is there a better/cheaper DAC to go with. Don't really need an amp for these cans I'm told.



For the price the NFB-12 is most likely one of the best deals you can get.


----------



## bowei006

@Brooko
  Anyway, I am thinking of a new $200 desktop purchase. The NFB-12 came to my attention from one of my fellow Head-Fi pals. I then found your review. Would the NFB-12 for $220 approx still be one of the best non snake oil purchases you have made?
   
  Since you still have it I guess it would. I am also interested in Little Dots and I see you have one and your review talked about it. Are you able to tell the differences between the amp of the NFB and the Mark IV you have?
   
  I would like a new unit, that doesn't follow Head-Fi's snake oil sometimes.
   
  I see Headfonia did not like it.
   
  I am thinking of getting the NFB 12.1 version. I already paid $200 so why not $15 more for more features.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> @Brooko
> Anyway, I am thinking of a new $200 desktop purchase. The NFB-12 came to my attention from one of my fellow Head-Fi pals. I then found your review. Would the NFB-12 for $220 approx still be one of the best non snake oil purchases you have made?
> 
> Since you still have it I guess it would. I am also interested in Little Dots and I see you have one and your review talked about it. Are you able to tell the differences between the amp of the NFB and the Mark IV you have?
> ...


 
   
  Replied here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/610954/200-desktop-amp-and-dac/15#post_8398553


----------



## Matrixnobu

I've had my NFB12 for about three weeks. So I figured I would post my findings so far with my HD-650:
   
  USB vs. Coax vs. Optical: I have a motherboard that had all three so I wanted to try them all and post
                                            the differences between the three. I will start off by saying that USB wins
                                            hands down with my setup. The bass is a little bloated but the soundstage
                                            was way better and intrument separation was way better with USB. Coaxial
                                            came in second with a good tonal balance but soundstage was rather flat.
                                            It's like going from 3D to 2D IMO. And Optical bringing up the rear. It had less
                                            detail than the other two and less soundstaging as well.
   
  Filter setting:                     I tried all the filters and ended up using 8x Oversampling Minimum phase
                                           apodising filter. Tames the bass pretty well and has good detail and smoothness
                                           with my setup.
   
  Conclusion:                      I love the NFB12. It is smooth sounding and never harsh or fatiguing. But it is
                                           heavy on the bass for the HD-650's IMO. I had to eq 250 Hz and below down a
                                           few notches to balance the sound out to where it was good (See picture below).
                                           And now the sound is simply awesome. I haven't heard better sound out of my
                                           headphones. It sounds clear with great texture and I love the soundstaging.
                                           Simply amazing!


----------



## bowei006

Ok so I use paypal's send money feature, input the amount and send it to him?


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Ok so I use paypal's send money feature, input the amount and send it to him?


 
   
  Yes, that's what I did.  Send an inquiry for what you want and they'll send an invoice.  You may have to go back and forth a couple of times, but once you confirm the product and shipping method is correct, you just send your payment to the Paypal address they provide and they'll send a confirmation email and you're set.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Yes, that's what I did.  Send an inquiry for what you want and they'll send an invoice.  You may have to go back and forth a couple of times, but once you confirm the product and shipping method is correct, you just send your payment to the Paypal address they provide and they'll send a confirmation email and you're set.


 
  BOUGHT! 
   
  I'll use it for a few months and see about doing a seperate Review on it.
   
  No offense but as a member of the E17 thread....posting reviews or other important stuff in a mass thread isn't helpful to people that want a .... inviter. Whenever I search for devies, if I see many review posts on head-fi, it makes me think, this device is popular and I can find many people that have it and will cause me to look into the device more. Most of these smaller devices don't have pages or posts like that and are all in one thread which to me doesn't draw people in as they have to search through info which many don't want to do.
   
  So I'll have it for a month and MAYBE do a review on it. I see (post with) Rikkun(Tilpo) almost ever single day so that helps 
   
  The Sampling and all the options is going to make this a bit harder though.


----------



## Matrixnobu

That would be great if you post your opinions. Let us know which cans you are using it with also.
   
    
   
  Quote:


bowei006 said:


> BOUGHT!
> 
> I'll use it for a few months and see about doing a seperate Review on it.
> 
> ...


----------



## bowei006

Of course. Now did you guys ever get a tracking number? I didnt. And kingwa didnt reply to me when I asked for one >_<


----------



## Matrixnobu

I just got a pair of Beyerdynamic T1's and so far I'm liking them with the 2x oversampling Linear phase softknee filter. And Dare I say I think they sound even nicer than my 650's. No need for any EQ. But these are preliminary observations. I'll post more impressions once they have a few more days to break-in.


----------



## nigeljames

Quote: 





matrixnobu said:


> I just got a pair of Beyerdynamic T1's and so far I'm liking them with the 2x oversampling Linear phase softknee filter. And Dare I say *I think they sound even nicer than my 650's*. No need for any EQ. But these are preliminary observations. I'll post more impressions once they have a few more days to break-in.


 
   
  They should as they are far better phones, as to be expected at the price.
   
  Enjoy your T1's.


----------



## Matrixnobu

Thanks!
   
  Just an update. I like the 4x oversampling linear phase soft knee filter to be the best with the T1's so far.


----------



## Matrixnobu

Nope. I'm back to the 2x oversampling Linear phase softknee filter for the T1's.


----------



## nigeljames

Looks like you are having fun


----------



## Matrixnobu

I sure am. The T1's really work well with this amp/dac.


----------



## bowei006

I have never heard oversampling before. What does it sound like guys?
   
  I think I'll be getting mine tomorrow or the day after!


----------



## Matrixnobu

It's an algorithm they use to smooth out the waveform that the Dac puts out. And the filter part is a low pass filter that is used to cut out digital noise.
   
  In practice the higher the oversampling rate the better but in reality I just trust my ears. With the 650's I find the 8x oversampling to be best. But with the T1's I'm liking only 2x oversampling.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





matrixnobu said:


> It's an algorithm they use to smooth out the waveform that the Dac puts out. And the filter part is a low pass filter that is used to cut out digital noise.
> 
> In practice the higher the oversampling rate the better but in reality I just trust my ears. With the 650's I find the 8x oversampling to be best. But with the T1's I'm liking only 2x oversampling.


 
  I guess I'll leave it to my ears. I wasn't asking on what OverSampling does as.....it's common knowledge but more of what it sounds like. Anyway, I'll wait for tommorrow then!


----------



## Matrixnobu

It's hard to describe in words. Each setting sounds a little different. Some are more lean sounding some are more meaty. Some have more bass and some have more highs. So really it's up to your ears to see which is best for your tastes.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





matrixnobu said:


> It's hard to describe in words. Each setting sounds a little different. Some are more lean sounding some are more meaty. Some have more bass and some have more highs. So really it's up to your ears to see which is best for your tastes.


 
  Thank you! I'll test them out and make a record of which settings sound good with each headphone.
   
  Now using the NFB with you HD 545...how far up is the volume knob for a good enough volume?


----------



## Matrixnobu

About a quarter (9 o'clock) is good for me on high gain with the HD-545's. I'm at about about 11 o'clock with the T1's.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





matrixnobu said:


> About a quarter (9 o'clock) is good for me on high gain with the HD-545's. I'm at about about 11 o'clock with the T1's.


 
  Wow, that's a lot of power! I can't wait!


----------



## Matrixnobu

Oh yeah. This thing has plenty of power.


----------



## CantScareMe

Hmmm, 
   
  Whats this, The *nfb 15*???:
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB15/NFB15EN.htm
   
   
  It's got Asynchronous usb and is meant to be an upgrade from the nfb12.1
  I think it uses the same enclosure too.... 
   
   
   
  I can't find a thread on it yet or maybe I haven't searched hard enough.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> Hmmm,
> 
> Whats this, The *nfb 15*???:
> 
> ...


 
  The two are very similar if not near identical in specs and look. However Audio Gd ranks them in order of lower number=better so I guess we are still in the clear for the v12.1


----------



## CantScareMe

Not really- It says on that page that it's an improvement over the nfb 12.
   
  At a higher price, using asynchronous usb transfer and other stuff, it has to be an improvement.
   
  Someone perhaps should start a new thread about them. I'm not, as I probably won't be purchasing it any time soon (especially as they seem to always all the time use the initial customers as trial runs. I jumped ship on the nfb12 when it didn't have the selectable jumpers. It's sound- no better than the measly e7/e9- I actually thought mike from headfonia gave this nfb12 a soft review)


----------



## Brooko

Shows how different we hear.  I came from the E7/E9 originally, and much prefer the NFB-12.  E7/E9 "thin sounding" in comparison.  My version was with the jumpers - but without the switches.  I am using one of the 4x filters.  Personally thought Mike's "review" was thrown together.  He didn't even take the time to play around with the jumper settings.


----------



## KimLaroux

The NFB-12 was one of the unit that could not upgrade to the TE8802 usb receiver board, since It has the USB receiver directly on the motherboard. The NFB-15 seems to be an NFB-12 with the new USB receiver.
   
  But as you can see from the two pictures, there's more than that going on:
   

   
  Left is 12, right is 15.
   
  The most obvious difference is the use of more surface mount components on the 15. Most of the transistor in the amplifier are now surface mounted. They also modified the power supply. It now has bigger capacitors, with the total capacitance going from 0.01 to 0.015 farad. They added a 22 ohm resistor in there. I bet it's used to lower the noise of the power supply.
   
  They probably took opportunity to apply a few tweaks to the circuit. As anyone contacted Audio-gd about the differences? If there's a new thread created about it, it would be nice to post the link here.


----------



## CantScareMe

Go on then KimLaroux, make the thread!
   
  It sometimes makes me cringe that someone who creates a thread which will stretch over 150 pages has next to no interest in the product- That would be me!!
   
  @brooko
  True, I guess it shows how we hear differently. I was never impressed at all with the original nfb12 (and made it clear ages ago in this thread), especially given the overwhelmingly positive reviews it recieved on this thread. Made my jaw drop on how bad it was to tell the truth and it brought to life crazy 'crazy carls' views on how the audio gd sparrow wasn't a real step up from his headphone output on his macbook!!
   
  The nfb12 with the adjustable filters was a significant step up
  The nfb15 promises to be audibly better than this........I'll probably get it one day, but sorry kingwa, I'm not buying an under developed product. I'll wait for the final thing.


----------



## KimLaroux

I'm not interested in buying an NFB-15, so I'll pass.
   
  I was never impressed with the NFB-12 either. The only difference between it and my laptop audio-out is a black background and more power.
   
  I don't see why they named the new revision NFB-15. It would have made more sens to call it NFB-12.2 or something. I mean, it's not that much different from the NFB-12. Where does it promises to be audibly better?


----------



## CantScareMe

Oh right,
   
  Asynchronous (if that's how you spell it) usb is a big catch. This would warrant a new name for the nfb12. To loads of people here, it's a big difference


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





cantscareme said:


> The nfb15 promises to be audibly better than this........I'll probably get it one day, but sorry kingwa, I'm not buying an under developed product. I'll wait for the final thing.


 
   
  Totally agree with you on that.  I'd definitely buy another one of the Audio-gd line (especially if it's a value product like the NFB-12), but I'd be a bit more cautious next time - waiting for the product to mature.  If I'd waited a month, I'd have had the switchable filters on the front plate.  As it was, I guess I was lucky getting the filters (by jumper) at all.  I would have been a little P.O'd if I'd bought the first revision with no filter changeability.


----------



## CantScareMe

Yea, true say.
   
  I was just randomly browsing the CHAOTIC audio gd website when I came across the nfb15 and thought it'd be nice to share it with folk interested in the nfb12.1......... 
   
  ........anyway.


----------



## Matrixnobu

This NFB-15 looks interesting. But I doubt it would much different than the NFB-12 soundwise. I think Kingwa just wants all his products to have the TE-8802 usb adaptor. It makes more sense to buy just one adaptor in bulk than buying two different ones in smaller quantities.


----------



## KimLaroux

They also released a NFB-16, which is half the size of the NFB-12. They call it portable, but there's no battery in it. It's more of a transportable dac/amp. It's in the same class as the Audinst HUD, AudioEngine D1 and the likes.
   
  But I didn't come here to talk about that. I want to know if any of you has any technical information on the gain settings of the NFB-12.
   
  Because even low gain is too high, and I often find myself lowering the volume to the point where there's bad channel imbalance. I plan on reverse engineering the gain/volume controls and lower the low gain setting. I realize though that ACSS is not using conventional volume control, and so hacking it would be quite a challenge. So if anyone has any information that would help me doing it, it would be greatly appreciated if you could share it. Thanks.


----------



## Matrixnobu

Hmmm....  That is an interesting question. Why don't you e-mail Kinqwa maybe he can direct you in the right direction.


----------



## KimLaroux

Well I hadn't thought of that. Asking technical information from a manufacturer and expecting an answer seems like an alien idea. 
   
  But it worked! I received an answer, telling me which resistors to change, to what value, and what the result will be.
   
  There's 8 2202 surface mount resistors in a line of 16 resistors between the dual DACs and the dual relays. 2202 is 22k 1%. Changing these with 47k resistors will lower the gain by 7dB.
   
  Here's the line of resistors in question.
   

   
  The other 8 resistors are 5.6k. They alternate, so there's 22k, 5k6, 22k, 5k6... etc. I'm guessing the 5k6 are for the high gain and the 22k for the low gain. Edit : Just received an email confirming the 5k6 are for the high gain.
   
  So now all I need are 8 47k resistors in 1206 package. Changing these will be quite a challenge.


----------



## Tilpo

kimlaroux said:


> Well I hadn't thought of that. Asking technical information from a manufacturer and expecting an answer seems like an alien idea.
> 
> But it worked! I received an answer, telling me which resistors to change, to what value, and what the result will be.
> 
> ...



Surface mount resistors. . . Ouch.

Good luck!


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> Surface mount resistors. . . Ouch.
> Good luck!


 
   
  They aren't so bad, it's a 1206 package. They're 3.5 X 1.6 mm, which is barely smaller than a 1/4w trough hole resistor.
   
  The problem is to get my hands on replacements. I might end up having to buy a hundred. But hey, at least I'll have enough to match them perfectly.


----------



## Tilpo

kimlaroux said:


> tilpo said:
> 
> 
> > Surface mount resistors. . . Ouch.
> ...



You're bound to have enough, lol.

But then the question is whether your DMM is good enough for 1% matching.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





tilpo said:


> You're bound to have enough, lol.
> But then the question is whether your DMM is good enough for 1% matching.


 
   
  I verified. 1% of 47k is 470 ohms. My DMM has one decimal in the 200K function. This gives me 100 ohms of precision, or 0.2% of 47K.
   
  So yeah, I can just buy 5% resistors and hand match them. It should be better than buying 1% resistors and not hand matching them, which I believe is the situation with the stock resistors.


----------



## Tilpo

kimlaroux said:


> tilpo said:
> 
> 
> > You're bound to have enough, lol.
> ...



Do note that precision does not equal accuracy. A DMM can give a really precise reading, but not be consistent in it. 1% should be possible, on the other hand. 
If you want even more precision, you could try making a circuit on a breadboard and use current measurements instead. You could have two of them in parallel and hook up a steady rail voltage to both sides and measure current. If the current is very close to being the same on both resistors, then they are closely matched. 
Let's say your DMM has 0.1% precision in the mA current. 

This should be more precise than the measuring resistance directly, but I may be mistaken.


----------



## Matrixnobu

That's what I like about Audio-GD. They have good products and are small enough that you can
  get that one on one raport with them when you need help.
   
   
  Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> Well I hadn't thought of that. Asking technical information from a manufacturer and expecting an answer seems like an alien idea.
> 
> But it worked! I received an answer, telling me which resistors to change, to what value, and what the result will be.
> 
> ...


----------



## bowei006

Lowering the volume gives me problems with channel inbalance as well.
   
  Anyway, tis a good device. O2 works better with AKG 701's and the Shure's while the NFB excells withe everything else I have.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Lowering the volume gives me problems with channel inbalance as well.
> 
> Anyway, tis a good device. *O2 works better with AKG 701's and the Shure's* while the NFB excells withe everything else I have.


 
   
  hahaha, those are the exact headphones I have! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But yeah, there's no point getting another amplifier at this point. I'm planning on just saving and go fully balanced on my next DAC purchase.
   
  Still, anyone started a thread for the NFB-15?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> hahaha, those are the exact headphones I have!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Haha yeah. I got the O2 only to test and learn off of it. I would not spend $150+ to have it "match" a tiny bit better sonically with those two headphones.
   
  What are you looking at for your future one?


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Haha yeah. I got the O2 only to test and learn off of it. I would not spend $150+ to have it "match" a tiny bit better sonically with those two headphones.
> 
> What are you looking at for your future one?


 
   
  My thoughts exactly. I can already feel the gentle slope of diminishing returns...
   
  I just want more DIY stuff. Like recabling my headphones for balanced operation, building a 4 channel amplifier... But all this will take time and money, things I don't really have being a student. Either way, I'm not really interested in simply buying new products for the sake of "upgrading". I find it more fun and satisfying to build things up myself.
   
  Though I still haven't found a balanced DIY DAC, so I might have to buy one at some point. I'm thinking about and Audio-GD NFB-10 or NFB-17, Yulong D100 or D18... something like that. But by the time I'll be able to buy one, those will probably be retired products.


----------



## bowei006

Haha, I am not too crazy for buying all that gear as well


----------



## Matrixnobu

Well I'm back with an update.
   
  I've had the NFB-12 for about 6 weeks now. And have been using it with my modded
  Beyerdynamic T1's. I ended up selling the HD-650's because once I heard the T1's
  with the NFB-12 I had to get them. Awesome sound!
   
  I'm using my computer feeding the NFB-12 via USB. Even though I did have to get
  another USB cable since the one that came with it wasn't very good. I had drop outs
  and even lost connection at times.
   
  With the T1's I found the 2x oversampling Linear phase softknee filter works best. Has
  a nice roll off in the treble that is really nice. And I find the soundstage is awesome with
  these headphones. I also don't find it boomy like I did with the HD-650's. The bass is just
  right, deep and controlled. I have not had to EQ at all with the T1's.
   
  Here is a picture of it for you guys that like pictures


----------



## Syrk

I was told they made the nfb-15 more neutral as opposed to the nfb-12 being a bit warm.
   
  On another note, have you guys ever received an nfb-12 that was wobbly and had a number of scratches on it(one of them being deeper than the others)?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





syrk said:


> I was told they made the nfb-15 more neutral as opposed to the nfb-12 being a bit warm.
> 
> On another note, have you guys ever received an nfb-12 that was wobbly and had a number of scratches on it(one of them being deeper than the others)?


 
  Umm...no??.....
   
  I have the O2 and the NFB is noticeably more "warm" and compact in terms of soundstage but the NFB has more "oomph" to my music.


----------



## Syrk

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Umm...no??.....
> 
> I have the O2 and the NFB is noticeably more "warm" and compact in terms of soundstage but the NFB has more "oomph" to my music.


 
  I don't understand what you're saying no to. Kingwa himself said, "The NFB15.1 sound is neutral than the NFB12.1, the NFB12.1 is slight warmer."


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





syrk said:


> I don't understand what you're saying no to. Kingwa himself said, "The NFB15.1 sound is neutral than the NFB12.1, the NFB12.1 is slight warmer."


 
  I'm saying no to the scratches and dents, I was agreeing partially with the warmenss comment except I was comparing it to my O2.


----------



## Syrk

.


----------



## bowei006

Could it have been the shipping?....


----------



## Syrk

.


----------



## bowei006

If he said it was perfect and mint and it wasn't and there was no problems with the packaging...then yes, he owes you a refund. IF it was due to shipping(hard to tell) then probably not.


----------



## Matrixnobu

No problems with mine. The build is pretty nice IMHO.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





matrixnobu said:


> No problems with mine. The build is pretty nice IMHO.


 
  But it gets too hot


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> But it gets too hot


 
   
  I thought the NFB-12 was getting too hot.
   
  Then I built a Starving Student hybrid. _This_ gets hot. The NFB-12 is cold in comparison.


----------



## Brooko

Warm yes - too hot - I guess that's interpretation.  Just make sure it's well ventilated.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





brooko said:


> Warm yes - too hot - I guess that's interpretation.  Just make sure it's well ventilated.


 
  Haha yep, Warm but a tad bit on the warmer side. I can hold my hand on it no problem but in my interpretation of the words. IT's hot, and makes me a bit worried. I have a lot of computer fans...and a computer power supply on my desk as speaker stands. I can easily get a fan on the top mounted with a slot cut out of the top. I am talking of a 80cm computer fan.. That should rectify it!
  Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> I thought the NFB-12 was getting too hot.
> 
> Then I built a Starving Student hybrid. _This_ gets hot. The NFB-12 is cold in comparison.


 
  I could never build stuff like that sadly.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Haha yep, Warm but a tad bit on the warmer side. I can hold my hand on it no problem but in my interpretation of the words. IT's hot, and makes me a bit worried. I have a lot of computer fans...and a computer power supply on my desk as speaker stands. I can easily get a fan on the top mounted with a slot cut out of the top. I am talking of a 80cm computer fan.. That should rectify it!


 
   
  Just take the top cover off. That's what I do when I keep it on for hours at a time. It gets warm because it doesn't breathe. With the top off, it barely gets lukewarm. You just have to be more careful not to drop anything conductive in it while it's on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Plus it looks so great inside.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> Just take the top cover off. That's what I do when I keep it on for hours at a time. It gets warm because it doesn't breathe. With the top off, it barely gets lukewarm. You just have to be more careful not to drop anything conductive in it while it's on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I thought of doing that and probably will, It's under my monitor so pretty safe
   
  Just saying...we are now brothers!! I now declare us to be of kin!


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> Just take the top cover off.


 
   
  Actually that's a great idea!  Mine is under a stand that I sit my LD MKIV on - I guess it's got about 1inch airflow around the top, and it's open on the sides.  Might look at what's needed to put a fine mesh cover over it to keep any dust out though.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





brooko said:


> Actually that's a great idea!  Mine is under a stand that I sit my LD MKIV on - I guess it's got about 1inch airflow around the top, and it's open on the sides.  Might look at what's needed to put a fine mesh cover over it to keep any dust out though.


 
  Just did it, I vacumm my room kinda often, once every two weeks. I will guess that a little vacumming won't hurt the NFB 12.1 if I don't use a mesh.


----------



## Matrixnobu

Wow! You guys have the exact same setup


----------



## bowei006

Near same setups in the pic, he has the NFB 12, I have the 12.1


----------



## Matrixnobu

So how are you liking your NFB-12.1?
   
   
  Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Near same setups in the pic, he has the NFB 12, I have the 12.1


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





matrixnobu said:


> So how are you liking your NFB-12.1?


 
  I don't know... I'm not using the amp section but the DAC section works well enough and has no problems. I won't do a huge comment on the sound of the DAC though as I don't have my DAC's to compare. and it would be ridiculously funny to compare it to my PC's onboard as it's night and day.


----------



## Matrixnobu

Yeah I know a few people just using it as a DAC only. When my wallet lets me
  I also want to get an amp like a Woo Audio WA2 and will probably end up doing
  the same thing.


----------



## KimLaroux

I've been using the amplifier in my NFB-12 and never seen the need to get a dedicated amplifier. The NFB-12's amplifier is dead silent and has enough power to blow your headphones up. Plus it's got a flat frequency response that extends bellow and over human hearing. I just don't see why I should spend more money on something else.
   
  I can already admit that the music I listen to is the bottleneck of my setup. I just HATE compressed music, but sadly it's the norm in the genres I listen to. Champagne to the day the Loudness War ends.
   
  No amount of money spent on hardware will make over-compressed albums sound better. So unless you strictly listen to "audiophile level" recordings, there's a point where good enough is good enough. The NFB-12 fills that role quite well.
   
  Edit: Just thought about something. For those of you who use the NFB-12 as a DAC only, how do you connect both your amplifier and your speakers to it? I've been thinking about adding a second set of RCA to my NFB-12 for this, but I'm still unsure if I should wire them in parallel. Seeing how the line out actually goes trough the amplifier, it shouldn't be a problem for it to drive multiple lines.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> I've been using the amplifier in my NFB-12 and never seen the need to get a dedicated amplifier. The NFB-12's amplifier is dead silent and has enough power to blow your headphones up. Plus it's got a flat frequency response that extends bellow and over human hearing. I just don't see why I should spend more money on something else.
> 
> I can already admit that the music I listen to is the bottleneck of my setup. I just HATE compressed music, but sadly it's the norm in the genres I listen to. Champagne to the day the Loudness War ends.
> 
> No amount of money spent on hardware will make over-compressed albums sound better. So unless you strictly listen to "audiophile level" recordings, there's a point where good enough is good enough. The NFB-12 fills that role quite well.


 
  There are some improvements with the O2 but I get what you mean. I was able to get the O2 at a very good price so I got it to do tests and comparisons on. I'll be selling it in the comming weeks. It's a desktop only(no batteries) use O2 customized for high performance purposes(Burr Brown op amp with NJM4556) and uses RCA inputs and quarter inch output.


----------



## Tilpo

kimlaroux said:


> Edit: Just thought about something. For those of you who use the NFB-12 as a DAC only, how do you connect both your amplifier and your speakers to it? I've been thinking about adding a second set of RCA to my NFB-12 for this, but I'm still unsure if I should wire them in parallel. Seeing how the line out actually goes trough the amplifier, it shouldn't be a problem for it to drive multiple lines.



I use an RCA splitter for that, and it works perfectly. Well, that's what I used to do. At the moment I don't have a dedicated headphone amplifier anymore.


----------



## KimLaroux

I just discovered something else about the NFB-12 that makes me facepalms.
   
  The cross talk is so bad, I get signal on the RCA even when the Output switch is set to "HP". Of course it's a very faint signal, but it's still there. About the same level as the cross talk between channels.
   
  How can a dual DAC chip design have so much cross talk? Is this something common with DACs or is it worse on the NFB-12?
   
  I was concerned that having two amplifiers permanently connected (as opposed to using a switch box) would introduce cross talk. With the cross talk already taking place inside the NB-12, I guess it doesn't matter. So I ordered two of these.


----------



## dwinnert

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> But it gets too hot


 
  I have been listening to my NFB-12 (going on 7 hours.....as I work at home) and it is barely warm. I just hit it with a Fluke temp gauge......97.1 F was the hottest part looking down on the left side rear. The very front top is 94.3 F. That to me is not hot. Also the unit sits on top of my computer and has a Sonos Bridge sitting on top.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





dwinnert said:


> I have been listening to my NFB-12 (going on 7 hours.....as I work at home) and it is barely warm. I just hit it with a Fluke temp gauge......97.1 F was the hottest part looking down on the left side rear. The very front top is 94.3 F. That to me is not hot. Also the unit sits on top of my computer and has a Sonos Bridge sitting on top.


 
  That's about right for the temp. I know fo such a component it isn't hot. But ...... I have a wooden glossed table that this is sitting on. It has standoffs as I have the 12.1 but...still, it is very inconvenient.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





dwinnert said:


> I have been listening to my NFB-12 (going on 7 hours.....as I work at home) and it is barely warm. I just hit it with a Fluke temp gauge......*97.1 F was the hottest part looking down on the left side rear*. The very front top is 94.3 F. That to me is not hot. Also the unit sits on top of my computer and has a Sonos Bridge sitting on top.


 
   
  Indeed, this is where the transformer and the power supply is. I think the transformer is the thing that gets the warmest. And still it's not that hot. It's within operational temperature.


----------



## dwinnert

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> Indeed, this is where the transformer and the power supply is. I think the transformer is the thing that gets the warmest. And still it's not that hot. It's within operational temperature.


 

 Those that say theirs is getting too hot, I would like to see temps.


----------



## KimLaroux

I was bored today. And bored geeks tend to find complicated solutions to problems that don't really exists.
   
  So I drilled holes on the top cover of my NFB-12. In a golden spiral pattern.
   

   

   
  And of course, the center of the spiral is exactly where the unit wastes the most heat.
   
  There's something about machined aluminum. These holes might have an arguable role as vents, but they do make the unit prettier.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> I was bored today. And bored geeks tend to find complicated solutions to problems that don't really exists.
> 
> So I drilled holes on the top cover of my NFB-12. In a golden spiral pattern.
> 
> ...


 
  CAn you send me the paper? As in scan it?............


----------



## KimLaroux

hahaha! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  It was ruined with all the drilling. I can send you the measurements though. But then it'll ruin all the fun... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Or you can go super lazy, and just print this. You just have to find out the right zoom level for your printer. Note that the cover of the NFB-12 is not a golden rectangle, so the ratio doesn't fit. I cheated and made the small side fit, while the long side overlaps. This is why the outside spiral end in the middle of the front panel. But honestly, you don't have to be super precise with the scaling. As long as the short side is less than 6 inches.


----------



## bowei006

Sad panda is sad 

Ill look into it then! Thanks


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Sad panda is sad
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Awwh c'mon, it's not that hard.
   
  It took me just a few minutes to Gimp the image, ready for printing. Complete with a scale. Just print it with the right zoom level so that the black rectangle is 1cm wide and 1 inch high. (crazy, because the top cover is 6 inch by 22cm, exactly) Then cut along the outside of the black line, and it should fit perfectly on the cover.
   

   
  All that's left is draw dot where the holes go. I started with the smallest drill bit in my kit, and used it for the center, done by approximation. I then switched to the next bit, and added 2mm spacing at each interval between the holes. Just measure with a flat ruler, it's well within the error if you use a hand drill anyways. I switched to the next size bit every 90 degrees.


----------



## Matrixnobu

That's cool !!!!


----------



## bowei006

Happy panda is happy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Thanks my twin brother!


----------



## FauDrei

Make some additional holes on the bottom if you are concerned about heat in your NFB.
   
  BTW the hottest parts should be PSU regulators and output transistors ("thingies" with heatsinks).


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





faudrei said:


> Make some additional holes on the bottom if you are concerned about heat in your NFB.
> 
> BTW the hottest parts should be PSU regulators and output transistors ("thingies" with heatsinks).


 
   
  Already did.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/524263/audio-gd-nfb-12/1905#post_8272336


----------



## dwinnert

Any reason to sell my NFB-12 and buy the NFB-15.1? I still dig my 12.....just itching to buy something else.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





dwinnert said:


> Any reason to sell my NFB-12 and buy the NFB-15.1? I still dig my 12.....just itching to buy something else.


 
   
  I doubt the difference would be audible. the NFB-15 is more of a technology update than a sound quality upgrade. You might as well get an NFB-5.2 or NFB-10.2 if you're after a serious upgrade. But if you just want something different, there's enough non-audio-gd stuff out there to satisfy your craving. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  And to come back to the TE8802 drivers, it turns out it's NOT working with Linux out of the box. There is a bug in the TE8802 firmware that corrupts the initial handshake. It's currently being worked on, and patches are being tested. See http://www.head-fi.org/t/609062/ for more details.


----------



## tim3320070

If you want an upgrade, go to the NFB10SE but I would upgrade your headphones first personally.


----------



## Tilpo

tim3320070 said:


> If you want an upgrade, go to the NFB10SE but I would upgrade your headphones first personally.



I concur.

Differences between amps/DAC's are nothing compared to the differences between headphones, both sound _quality_ and _character_ (e.g. frequency response).


----------



## dwinnert

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> If you want an upgrade, go to the NFB10SE but I would upgrade your headphones first personally.


 
  I am using Grado RS1i's........so you say I should upgrade those?


----------



## tim3320070

It said RS80i when I posted, did you just update your signature? RS1i is nice for sure so I would not recommend doing a near sideways move to the NFB15. Grado's balanced are very nice.


----------



## dwinnert

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> It said RS80i when I posted, did you just update your signature? RS1i is nice for sure so I would not recommend doing a near sideways move to the NFB15. Grado's balanced are very nice.


 

 Yeah, my sig was a little old......I was looking at the 15 so I could mess with the filters easier then popping the top off.


----------



## nv88

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *bowei006* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> O2 works better with AKG 701's and the Shure's while the NFB excells withe everything else I have.


 
   
  Any other thoughts or comparisons between the O2 and NFB 12.1?  I'm looking at both of these.  People say the NFB is more warm and the O2 more lean?  What about strength of the bass?


----------



## captouch

nv88 said:


> Any other thoughts or comparisons between the O2 and NFB 12.1?  I'm looking at both of these.  People say the NFB is more warm and the O2 more lean?  What about strength of the bass?




Bass is quite strong on NFB-12 out of Included HP out. Stronger than out of my other two amps I tried. I'm using one of the 8x filters, not sure how much the filters change the bass level as I haven't played with the filters much lately.


----------



## Matrixnobu

I agree. So I use the 2x or 4x filters when I have a headphone that is bass light. But for a bass heavy headphone the 8x minimum apodising filter is the one I found has less bass.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





nv88 said:


> Any other thoughts or comparisons between the O2 and NFB 12.1?  I'm looking at both of these.  People say the NFB is more warm and the O2 more lean?  What about strength of the bass?


 
  About so yeah. Both are accurate and in that sense "neutral" but teh O2's like you said are more lean and clean(not meaning the NFB;s are muddy, it's just the easiest word to use) while the NFB's add more punch to it and are warmer and have more "soul" to it. On a lot of music western music, the NFB's are the way to go however for Asian songs that I like, many will favor the O2 more.


----------



## nv88

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> About so yeah. Both are accurate and in that sense "neutral" but teh O2's like you said are more lean and clean(not meaning the NFB;s are muddy, it's just the easiest word to use) while the NFB's add more punch to it and are warmer and have more "soul" to it. On a lot of music western music, the NFB's are the way to go however for Asian songs that I like, many will favor the O2 more.


 
   
  Thanks!  This is very helpful.  I'm actually considering the nfb-15.1.  It's supposedly a little more neutral.  I guess that puts it in between the 12 and O2.  I'm also thinking about the Nuforce HDP.  The HDP has more input options.  I wish there were RCA in on the nfb-12.1 like there are on my Compass.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





nv88 said:


> I wish there were RCA in on the nfb-12.1 like there are on my Compass.


 
   
  NFB12 has 3 inputs - USB, optical, and coax (RCA)


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





brooko said:


> NFB12 has 3 inputs - USB, optical, and coax (RCA)


 
  And for clarifications sake, no, you can't plug your "component RCA" cable from your computer's regular output (3.5mm to component RCA) into the NFB. I guess you may be able to use a component RCA cable instead of a Digitial Coaxil cable if you don't have one but I have never tested it. 
  If you wish to use Coaxil with the NFB 12.1, you need a S/PDIF Coaxil output on your computer or device, of which for best results you have a Digital Coaxil cable linked between the NFB 12.1 and said device. The Digital Coaxil cables that use the RCA connection format(there isn't another format, they just use the RCA connector format) have a orange stripe on the ends. And after you use that cable, you just set your NFB to COA input.


----------



## Brooko

I was assuming he meant digital out from PC via coax (RCA connectors).


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





brooko said:


> I was assuming he meant digital out from PC via coax (RCA connectors).


 
  Well yeah, but from my experience, and such a short and not in depth post. A rather longer post clarifying things is better. I have truly dealt with people in other area's that I thought would get what I meant as it was a bit obvious(Cable A that *says* it fits into hole B) have left me in despair. I have had people trying to start up a computer that wasn't plugged in because I didn't tell them to plug it in, and people with no sound comming out of whatever because I didn't tell them to plug the cable back in when I told them to "test it out".
   
  Just my 2cents realy.


----------



## nv88

Sorry for the confusion.  I meant the stereo analog RCAs inputs, so you can input non-digital signals.  The Compass and Fun had them.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





nv88 said:


> Sorry for the confusion.  I meant the stereo analog RCAs inputs, so you can input non-digital signals.  The Compass and Fun had them.


 
  Ah - no unfortunately no line-in on the NFB-12.


----------



## nv88

On the 12.1 looks like you can replace the coaxial or optical with a BNC connector.  Is that a digital or analog input?  I wonder if I could somehow feed an analog signal in there if I needed to?  I don't need the option often, but it's nice to have.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





nv88 said:


> On the 12.1 looks like you can replace the coaxial or optical with a BNC connector.  Is that a digital or analog input?  I wonder if I could somehow feed an analog signal in there if I needed to?  I don't need the option often, but it's nice to have.


 
  There is no analog signal input, just digital through USB, COaxil or optical S/PDIF


----------



## nv88

Anyone seen a review of the 15.1 yet?  I'm trying to decide between the nfb-15.1, another nuforce HDP or a Objective 2.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





nv88 said:


> *On the 12.1 looks like you can replace the coaxial or optical with a BNC connector.  Is that a digital or analog input?*  I wonder if I could somehow feed an analog signal in there if I needed to?  I don't need the option often, but it's nice to have.


 
   
  It stays a digital input. SPDIF signals can be transferred trough just about any types of cables. TOSLINK, RCA, BNC, TRS, XLR, DB25... You could even use an Ethernet cable if you wanted to.
   
  If you think the NNFB-12 lacks connectivity, check out AudioTrak's DR.DAC2 DX.


----------



## nv88

Thanks! Looking up the AudioTrak's DR.DAC2 DX also turned up the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11.  One of these is probably more what I'm actually looking for.
   
  Now back to the NFB-12.


----------



## Chris_Himself

I just bought one of these for my LCD-2's, hope I won't be disappointed.


----------



## anthony444

Well! GD nfb 12 are related with a our system and I have also utilize audio GD NFB 12...  We all should attache this.. And Make our system listenable.. nfb-12 have great immense.


----------



## KimLaroux

kimlaroux said:


> Well I hadn't thought of that. Asking technical information from a manufacturer and expecting an answer seems like an alien idea.
> 
> But it worked! I received an answer, telling me which resistors to change, to what value, and what the result will be.
> 
> ...




I received the 47K resistors yesterday. They had very little variations for 5%. Finding 8 within 100R was not a problem.

The modification went well, it took me about 2 hours. I removed the capacitors around the resistors to give more place for my iron. I think half of the original resistors were damaged during their removal. For a first time with surface mount, I think the result was good. Sadly though I don't have a good camera, so no pictures.

I'm currently testing it, and I can't hear a difference in volume. It's still too loud. The pot has no useful range, as higher is too loud and lower has bad channel imbalance. I'll have to contact Kingwa again.

While I had the board in hands, I studied it to confirm what I said about the line out: it's connected to the output of the amplifier. As in, there is no difference between the RCA at the back and the TRS jack at the front. There's a relay that toggles between one or the other, and that's it. I always read that "double amping" is bad, but that's exactly what one does when using the NFB-12's line out. :confused_face:


----------



## AF115

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> ...
> While I had the board in hands, I studied it to confirm what I said about the line out: it's connected to the output of the amplifier. As in, there is no difference between the RCA at the back and the TRS jack at the front. There's a relay that toggles between one or the other, and that's it. I always read that "double amping" is bad, but that's exactly what one does when using the NFB-12's line out.


 
  Interesting information. Thanks!
  Anyway, I'm not surprised neither reactive about that.
  Many widely appreciated DACs use (lousy) opamps in the output stage to filter/amplify the signal...
  At least in NFB-12 there are no caps on the path.
   
  P.S.
  IMHO and according to my ears "double amping" is bad if the amp stages are bad


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





nv88 said:


> On the 12.1 looks like you can replace the coaxial or optical with a BNC connector.  Is that a digital or analog input?  I wonder if I could somehow feed an analog signal in there if I needed to?  I don't need the option often, but it's nice to have.


 

 BNC is an improved COAX connection.  It's the same thing as a digital COAX except for that connector change with ensures the right impedance and has less jitter.  Already answered but no it is not an analog connection (but I don't know why you don't see BNC more often)


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





nv88 said:


> Any other thoughts or comparisons between the O2 and NFB 12.1?  I'm looking at both of these.  People say the NFB is more warm and the O2 more lean?  What about strength of the bass?


 

 is that O2 plus the ODAC compared to the nfb12?  just asking since the nfb-12 includes a lot more and has more features.  Even if you combine the ODAC you're still missing the optical and coax connections the 12 has.


----------



## Chris_Himself

High gain or low gain with your LCD-2's?


----------



## tme110

I use low and never change it, I don't believe there is any difference besides where the volume nob is


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> I use low and never change it, I don't believe there is any difference besides where the volume nob is


 
   
  Ok awesome, I was just paranoid that the higher gain puts in more THD for some reason...
   
  This is why I don't build amps haha


----------



## tme110

it will probably bring up some discussion but I hear no difference and don't believe there is one and Kingwa has even said himself that there should be no other difference.  I think people who hear the difference fall victem to how hard it is to volume match.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> it will probably bring up some discussion but I hear no difference and don't believe there is one and Kingwa has even said himself that there should be no other difference.  I think people who hear the difference fall victem to how hard it is to volume match.


 
   
  It sounds just 30% louder with no difference but I thought somebody with a masters degree in headphone amps could answer that for me, but I will trust me ears on that. Very good piece of kit and I doubt even HE-5LE's wouldn't be able to be powered out of this.
   
  Are these class A biased? It sounds pretty clean and it's even got the heat output to suggest that it is but I didn't do much research other than 2 people PMing me to buy one over some other 1k setups.


----------



## captouch

chris_himself said:


> It sounds just 30% louder with no difference but I thought somebody with a masters degree in headphone amps could answer that for me, but I will trust me ears on that. Very good piece of kit and I doubt even HE-5LE's wouldn't be able to be powered out of this.
> 
> Are these class A biased? It sounds pretty clean and it's even got the heat output to suggest that it is but I didn't do much research other than 2 people PMing me to buy one over some other 1k setups.




I use high gain, but absolutely no problems with 5LE. Get to about 10 position or so IIRC. And it sounds pretty good with them too!


----------



## tme110

I was obviously talking about volume matching between hi and low gain - thus the comment about the only change being the position of the volume nob.  I can pretend I have a masters in headphones.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> I was obviously talking about volume matching between hi and low gain - thus the comment about the only change being the position of the volume nob.  I can pretend I have a masters in headphones.


 
  I hear they just give those things out to anybody anyway


----------



## KimLaroux

The difference between low and high gain is the resistors used between the DACs and the output buffer. It's the resistors I changed to (try to) make the low gain even lower on mine.
   
  It's the series of resistors in the red rectangle. Half of them are for the low gain, the other half are for the high gain (alternating, not in blocks). The low gain resistors are half the value of the high gain ones. The two relays right of the resistors change between the sets of resistors. The H/L switch on the panel only triggers those relays.

   
  I doubt there will be an audible difference between one set of resistors and the other. 
   
  As for the modification I applied, I found that the level of the line out is significantly lower than it was. But I didn't notice a difference in volume for headphones. Still too loud. I haven't figured how this can be. I'm guessing it has to do with current more than with voltage. 'Got more homework to do I suppose.


----------



## captouch

chris_himself said:


> It sounds just 30% louder with no difference but I thought somebody with a masters degree in headphone amps could answer that for me, but I will trust me ears on that. Very good piece of kit and I doubt even HE-5LE's wouldn't be able to be powered out of this.
> 
> Are these class A biased? It sounds pretty clean and it's even got the heat output to suggest that it is but I didn't do much research other than 2 people PMing me to buy one over some other 1k setups.




Chris, what's the verdict on the NFB-12's so far? How does it compare to the HDP?


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Chris, what's the verdict on the NFB-12's so far? How does it compare to the HDP?


 
   
  SO. MUCH. MORE. POWER.
   
  The DAC isn't as good because I feel that as a source, the DAC imparted a rather punchy tone to the sound, but the amp would get tinny and bright near the end of it.
   
  HDP as a DAC and NFB as an amp would be perfect, although the M-Stage is a better amp than the NFB-12. So really HDP to M-Stage so far is the best combo for under 1k. For the $185 I paid though, it's just a silly amount of performance. It sort of looks like crap compared to the equipment I've used but analyzing the circuitry and components, they used the best DAC chip they could in a true balanced circuit and overall it's a very powerful dac/amp for the money in a somewhat still compact package.


----------



## captouch

chris_himself said:


> SO. MUCH. MORE. POWER.
> 
> The DAC isn't as good because I feel that as a source, the DAC imparted a rather punchy tone to the sound, but the amp would get tinny and bright near the end of it.
> 
> HDP as a DAC and NFB as an amp would be perfect, although the M-Stage is a better amp than the NFB-12. So really HDP to M-Stage so far is the best combo for under 1k. For the $185 I paid though, it's just a silly amount of performance. It sort of looks like crap compared to the equipment I've used but analyzing the circuitry and components, they used the best DAC chip they could in a true balanced circuit and overall it's a very powerful dac/amp for the money in a somewhat still compact package.




Cool. You should play around with the digital filters if your version supports this. I like 8x min apodising filter the best.

How does the HDP DAC compare to the Bifrost, based on your previous experience?


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





captouch said:


> Cool. You should play around with the digital filters if your version supports this. I like 8x min apodising filter the best.
> How does the HDP DAC compare to the Bifrost, based on your previous experience?


 
   
  HDP is a better DAC. I've compared the HDP to the Burson HA-160D and it comes out at about the same level. Of course the Burson is also an incredible amp attached to it, being the main point.
   
  The HDP actually has a good deal of bass for a DAC, and at the same time it has a pre-amp function which you can max out without any distortion which is also very nice.


----------



## genclaymore

Any one here used their NFB-12 with a A900/A900x if so, how does it do as a dac into those headphones. I not worry about the amp part as  I know the headphones are easy to drive. As I planning on moving fully away from internal sound cards due to poping issues. I mainly looking for transparent or close enough to it while having big/wide sound stage. Do any of the other filter settings have that type of sound signature as I seen some one mention that each filter setting sounds different.


----------



## Warrax

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Any one here used their NFB-12 with a A900/A900x if so, how does it do as a dac into those headphones. I not worry about the amp part as  I know the headphones are easy to drive. As I planning on moving fully away from internal sound cards due to poping issues. I mainly looking for transparent or close enough to it while having big/wide sound stage. Do any of the other filter settings have that type of sound signature as I seen some one mention that each filter setting sounds different.


 
  I've only had AD900/AD700 in my NFB12.1.


----------



## bowei006

I've tested the Dual WM8741 to a WM8740 and a Burr Brown DAC in the A & R Cambridge rPAC. The NFB 12.1's obviously won by a long shot.


----------



## KimLaroux

Were you using the built in amplifier, or an external one?
   
  And what difference did you observe from one DAC to the other?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> Were you using the built in amplifier, or an external one?
> 
> And what difference did you observe from one DAC to the other?


 
  I typed this up in another thread a while ago:
  I tested first amplifier only of each device and then DAC.
   
  Different setups:
  rPAC DAC line out--> Custom O2 high performance amp
  rPAC headphone out
   
  NFB 12.1 headphone out
  NFB 12.1 DAC fixed line out-->Custom O2 high performance amp.
   
  One of the units line out fixed was 2.1VRMS and the other was 2.2VRMS (forgot which) so I did account for differences
   
   
   
   
   
  Arcam first impressions:
   
  Not enough power first of all
  Harsh, the surroundings are more emphasized and the vocals pushed back and made “mellower” the bass and surroundings cometimes collash and produce a muddy mess
   
  The highs are emphasized incorrectly, produced too high and harsh, lining out improves DRASTICALLY.
   
  Headphone amp is weakest link, DAC isn’t as tight either sadly, bass is still a bit loos and “spreads”
   

[size=10pt]But basically it is $250 for a mini all in one headphone amp and DAC, intergration with it's simple controls is good, plug the rca component cables in and it auto switches to DAC fixed line out, there is also a mute feature where you press both volume up and down. However despite that, it's headphone amp section is a bit laughable. 3.5mm output wasn't really that bad and I didn't deduct points but the sound and lack of power did. It literally only has power to drive basic entry level cans to a loud volume or mid range cans to a decent one. The super highs are pulled back more (not as apparent) and more harsh while the mid-high's are more aparent but not as detailed compared to NFB 12.1 and what not. The bass is also loose and confined on the rPAC,like REALLY confined to it's own little area. [/size]
   
[size=10pt]So I gave up on the headphone section, enough to drive lowwer mid level $140 cans. And so I had both the NFB 12.1 and rPAC line out into the O2 so thus I am only testing and comparing the DAC sections. The Burr Brown DAC in the rPAC has 106dB SNR......A weighted. The NFB 12.1 has 128dB SNR A weighted....with it's dual flagship Wolfson's. But of course how it sounds is more important, and there it was, some of the woe's I heard while using just the rPAC itself was still there, not as confined bass, but still a bit ...just locked up in it's own space with little room to get out there, it had less of a s logic surround sound effect but still had some parts left of it where it would create that effect. Nothing bad really, vocals were fine but not as sweet. A bit clearer but has less depth, which defeats many purposes, the highs got fixed up big time, not harsh, and clear and you can make out individual effects SLIGHTLY better than the NFB12.1 like for example, where that high screeching sound was "aiming for" was more clear but that still couldn't help it with it's also slightly confined, warmer but less oomph mid level highs that while they kicked with impact with the bang of the cymbals, just didn't have the pump of the NFB's Wolfson.[/size]
   
[size=10pt]I will have this unit "for a few months" as the director told me, it features Asynchronous USB and a few other nifty features, it is mni so some may say it's not fair to compare with NFB..but that is not true, it is smaller but it is only moderately more conveneint, it is a desktop unit, has no batteries, and thus....as a consumer, why would i differentiate between the small one to the big one? God crap it! If I need room! Room will be made.[/size]
   
[size=10pt]I got the rPAC's feature down.....it's to be used with speakers with limited room to put a DAC....and to be easily travel ready with support for Asynchronous USB. That's about it... I couldn't be arsed to ever plug my speakers into my NFB (my speakers have RCA input) ...well I did once, but my gain was set wrong and I sent a line singal ...that was a bit too powerful and thus distortion came like a mofo so I just never did it then (should've used low gain, I was too lazy to do it though) well here I am[/size]
   
[size=10pt]Computer-->Asynchronous USB with Foobar-->rPAC with Burr Brown DAC line out fixed-->speakers[/size]
   
[size=10pt].....and that's where my euphoria comes in.[/size]
   
[size=10pt]The rPAC as a headphone amplifier and out for $250 is a bit *stares blankly*, but when used in conjunction with other features and small and travel and portable ready (no internal battery, but no added power supply either) can be very good.(it has the output power of an E5 or E7) Many are also fans of the company Arcam, which stands for A & R Cambridge.[/size]
   
[size=10pt]The rPAC put head to head with the Wolfson in the Audio gd both plugged into the O2 also loses by the DAC itself as it isolates a few parts of the sound to their own sections which is easily audible on headphones, but with speakers, it sounds great.[/size]
   
[size=10pt]I would say it is ahead of the HRT Music streamer? The difference with the NFB through headphone out is hilariously aparent but the DAC itself used has imaging that the NFB doesn't have, and without the headphone amp, isn't as or even artificial, kinda like a slight Ultrasone S-Logic effect, and with these higher priced units, I can only guess it may be better? Well... I will never know, but for the price, the DAC itself is fine. Although that then raises questions of why not buy a standalone DAC...like the one Kiteki loves, the AK4396 from ebay? The answer is size and problems. The AK measured differently each four times it was on the ebay page and many will like the ARcam's small package and features and what not, just a very intergrated product.[/size]


----------



## genclaymore

So Far I loving the NFB12. I have the one with the Digital Filter jumpers. I got it from another user on these forums.


----------



## 1audioz

Can anyone recommend NFB-12.1 vs. ASUS Essence STX (current) ?


----------



## Matrixnobu

Hey Guys,
   
  Just checking in. I have been listening to my HD-545's this week with the NFB-12 and I'm liking this pairing. If any of you can find a pair of these I think you will enjoy it immensely.


----------



## Poultrygeist

I've had my NFB-12 since they first came out. I currently use it to convert a digital signal from a CDP to analog for use in driving a pair of compression horns in a 3 way tri-amp system.


----------



## Warrax

Quote: 





1audioz said:


> Can anyone recommend NFB-12.1 vs. ASUS Essence STX (current) ?


 
  I didn't have STX , but I've had Asus Xonar D1.
   
  NFB12.1 > D1 by a lot, and I am almost sure, that it's > STX
   
  There are more advantages, like you can switch between HP and DAC just with one button, and you can also have regulator of volume just next to your hand, without touching the software (which is important in bitperfect setup)


----------



## anoxy

Just got my NFB 12.1 today. I opened it up and switched it to Fixed and Variable. I've been listening to it for the past half hour or so with my HD600. 
   
  Are there recommended settings I should be trying (changing anything internally), or are the filter and oversample switches the only options I can change?


----------



## anoxy

Oh. My. God. 
   
  I was set on selling my DT990, but after plugging them into this amp, I am keeping them for sure.


----------



## anoxy

nevermind.


----------



## Warrax

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Oh. My. God.
> 
> I was set on selling my DT990, but after plugging them into this amp, I am keeping them for sure.


 
  I've liked HD600 + NFB12.1 most, from all headphones, I have borrowed. But, it's just my musical preference.
  We cannot have for sure same hearing, as DT990 with NFB12.1 was out of the game very quickly... one of the worst and most disturbing sound, I've heard. Probably only thing I've liked at them, was fact, that they are open.
  So, in no way, I can advice you anything, as it seems, we have completly different musical hearing. My ears are too sensitive, and those highs on DT990 was killing my ears. And basses had weight, but was too loose, not tight, simply, it was like badly EQed DT880, with just quantity in basses, but loss of quality. In many songs, it was unlistenable for me.
   
  With NFB12.1, I would keep for sure HD600, I see it like perfect combo.
   
  Now to filter with HD600.. I dont have NFB12, but NFB12.1, which has buttons for filter. But I've found out, that for my taste was best filter OS:2, Filter:2. OS2: Filter 1 or 3 was also good, but I had feeling, Filter:2 was slightly better for these headphones.


----------



## anoxy

Quote: 





warrax said:


> I've liked HD600 + NFB12.1 most, from all headphones, I have borrowed. But, it's just my musical preference.
> We cannot have for sure same hearing, as DT990 with NFB12.1 was out of the game very quickly... one of the worst and most disturbing sound, I've heard. Probably only thing I've liked at them, was fact, that they are open.
> So, in no way, I can advice you anything, as it seems, we have completly different musical hearing. My ears are too sensitive, and those highs on DT990 was killing my ears. And basses had weight, but was too loose, not tight, simply, it was like badly EQed DT880, with just quantity in basses, but loss of quality. In many songs, it was unlistenable for me.
> 
> ...


 
  Oh I don't disagree at all. My HD600 with the NFB 12.1 is LEAGUES ahead of the DT990. I think the reason I made that comment originally is because the sound was so much different than the Sennheisers and it blew me away. But now that I've had a chance to listen to it for a while, I vastly prefer my HD600. 
   
  I'll probably end up selling the DT990 anyway because I have enough headphones to keep me happy. 
   
  Thanks for the tips on the filter settings, I will try those out.


----------



## Warrax

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Oh I don't disagree at all. My HD600 with the NFB 12.1 is LEAGUES ahead of the DT990. I think the reason I made that comment originally is because the sound was so much different than the Sennheisers and it blew me away. But now that I've had a chance to listen to it for a while, I vastly prefer my HD600.
> 
> I'll probably end up selling the DT990 anyway because I have enough headphones to keep me happy.
> 
> Thanks for the tips on the filter settings, I will try those out.


 
  You are welcomed. Just you need to find out, which jumper combination in NFB12 fits those button configurations in NFB12.1.


----------



## anoxy

I have the NFB 12.1 with the switches


----------



## zakazak

I am also curious on what settings you people use.
   
  Especially after reading this article: https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
   
  I have:
  OS: 4, Filter: 2
  Windows sound properties: 24 bit, 48kHz
  foobar2000 + WASAPI (24 bit output) + resampler (48kHz)
   
  but I am not sure if those are the best settings (using Sennheider HD600)


----------



## wolfetan44

If I get this can I use just the DAC inside? I can use the NFB 12 for a SS amp and then another tube amp but with the DAC inside of it. Could I do that?


----------



## anoxy

Yes wolfetan44. It's a fantastic standalone DAC.


----------



## wolfetan44

anoxy said:


> Yes wolfetan44. It's a fantastic standalone DAC.


 omg. I'm getting the NFB 12 or 15. Is the 15 worth the extra $25? Also how much is shipping?


----------



## wolfetan44

wolfetan44 said:


> omg. I'm getting the NFB 12 or 15. Is the 15 worth the extra $25? Also how much is shipping?


also how will I bypass the amp inside to just use the DAC?


----------



## otherlives

DAC on this thing looks good.  How does the amp compare to the older Compass model (v.1)?  The DAC is obviously much better.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





wolfetan44 said:


> also how will I bypass the amp inside to just use the DAC?


 
   
  From what I know, you can't. Even the RCA output at the back go trough the amplifier. And since audio-gd has an unconventional way of building amplifiers and DACs, you can't just go in and bypass stuff. For starter, all the signals before the amplifier are kept in the current domain, as opposed to the conventional voltage signals. I think even the filters between the DAC chip and the amplifier works on current signals. The volume potentiometer is used as a variable resistor to limit current, as opposed to a voltage divider to attenuate a voltage signal.
   
  But honestly, it's not like it's a bad thing. Even the most over priced stand-alone DAC usually use Op-Amps on the analog outputs. Take for example Calyx DAC, it goes for 1800$, uses ES9018 Sabre DAC chip, and a bunch of NE5332 Op-Amps for the analog output. As long as it sounds great and works, why care about it? Using an amplifier between the DAC chips and the analog outputs serves to protect the DAC chips if nothing else.
   
  As for filters, I've been using the 4X oversampling , Minimum phase 'soft-knee' filter ever since I received the unit, but last week I switched to 4X oversampling , Linear phase 'brickwall' filter. I noticed better treble extension, aka less treble roll off. There seems to be something different to string instruments, but I just can't quite explain it. It just sounds different. I used the soft knee filter because it tamed the treble on my cans and gave them a more "comfortable" sound. Now that I also have a tube amplifier, I thought I could use the better treble extension, if only to widen the difference between the NFB-12's headphone out and the tube amp. I enjoy changing things every once in a while, to keep them interesting. Though I don't have the switches to change the filters on the go, I bought some switches to hack on the case. It's still on my to-do list though, as I can't make up my mind as to how I should mount them without ruining the aesthetics.
   
  Ah and just for fun...
   
  The Hammond 1455T2201 enclosure fits perfectly on top of the NFB-12:
   

   

   
  If you guys think the NFB-12 gets hot, you should try a Starving Student. Just look at the heat sinks needed for this thing! It gets so hot I can use it to keep my tea warm. The MOSFETs alone dissipate 20W of power as heat. The whole thing gets so hot, it actually makes the NFB-12 bellow it significantly warmer.
   
  And here it is, at the Montreal August 2012 meet. I did get questions regarding the artsy breathing holes.


----------



## wolfetan44

So I can't use another amp with the DAC inside?):


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





wolfetan44 said:


> So I can't use another amp with the DAC inside?):


 
   
  Nothing prevents you from using the NFB-12 with an external amplifier. This is why it has RCA analog output at the back. It even has a "fixed output" mode in which the volume pot is bypassed to the RCA. Many people do this, and some go as far as consider it more a DAC than an headphones amplifier. It can be used without problems with another amp, but one way or the other, the signal will go trough the NFB-12 amplifier. I could tell you that the amplifier inside the NFB-12 is just a pre-amp, if it makes you feel better. After all, headphones amplifiers and pre-amps really aren't that different. And as I said, even "dedicated" DACs without headphone jacks have amplifiers inside them to amplify the signal before the analog output, just like the NFB-12 has an amplifier before it's analog output.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





wolfetan44 said:


> So I can't use another amp with the DAC inside?):


 
   
  Yes - of course you can.
   
  There are two RCA outputs on the rear which state "DAC Out) - one left channel, one right channel.  Both give a line level signal with the output set to the "fixed" position (front switch).  I have my LD MKIV attached this way - and it's one of the things about the NFB-12 I really love ...... the ability to go SS or tube - depending on my mood.


----------



## wolfetan44

Yayyy! Also how much is shipping?


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





wolfetan44 said:


> Yayyy! Also how much is shipping?


 
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/Shipping%20Cost.htm


----------



## wolfetan44

Quote: 





brooko said:


> http://www.audio-gd.com/Shipping%20Cost.htm


 
  Wow. So where is the NFB 12 in that chart?


----------



## Brooko

From memory - it's probably around USD 35-45.  Perhaps you could actually email them and ask the question .....?


----------



## wolfetan44

Quote: 





brooko said:


> From memory - it's probably around USD 35-45.  Perhaps you could actually email them and ask the question .....?


 
  Wow thats alot.


----------



## anoxy

Question for you gentlemen:
   
  I decided to try out the Optical connection between my NFB 12.1 and iMac. In USB mode, I could change the volume on my iMac, but with Optical that's not the case anymore.
  Is my iMac's internal DAC still being bypassed in Optical mode like it was in USB?
   
  The two connections definitely sound a bit different, and I can turn the volume up much higher in USB mode for some reason.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Question for you gentlemen:
> 
> I decided to try out the Optical connection between my NFB 12.1 and iMac. In USB mode, I could change the volume on my iMac, but with Optical that's not the case anymore.
> Is my iMac's internal DAC still being bypassed in Optical mode like it was in USB?
> ...


 
   
  I don't know about macs, but optical and coax SPDIF signals output from a computer have to pass trough a sound card first. With USB, the NFB-12 acts as a stand-alone external sound card. When you use SPDIF, be it optical or electrical, you are really using your computer's audio card. The audio signal is processed by the card and sent over the digital out. It bypasses the DAC, but the signal is still re-encoded by the CODEC chip.
   
  You probably have problems with "master volume" configuration. Again, I have no experience with macs, but in Linux the master volume does nothing to the SPDIF output. The master volume only change the "front stereo" output, which is the DAC of the sound card, to which my laptop's speakers are connected. I can't even change the volume of the SPDIF output. I can only mute it. You may want to go study your computer's audio setup. There's probably something there that you can tweak. I'm guessing the SPDIF volume isn't at 100%, if such a thing is possible on macs. Just keep in mind that the optical out is part of the imac's sound card, and so configuration to the sound card will affect the optical out.
   
  I personally use SPDIF for functional reasons. I don't leave my NFB-12 on all the time, and Linux doesn't like that. I get flooded with messages asking me what to do every time I turn the DAC on and off, and often the transition doesn't work and I have to relog for KDE to switch. It's also a pain, see impossible, to use two DACs at the same time. With SPDIF, I can have two different streams at the same time, independent of each others. For example, I can have a music player streaming bit-perfect trough SPDIF while simultaneously watching a youtube video trough my laptop's speakers. Very handy.


----------



## anoxy

Thanks for the info. So there is no way to actually bypass the soundcard? I thought that was the entire point of buying an external DAC?
   
  This is what it says when I use USB with my NFB 12.1:


----------



## silverbox

Does anyone else occasionally hear crackling sounds when using USB connection? Usually when I minimize/maximize windows or switch programs. SPDIF doesn't have this problem although when I first connected the device with coaxial cable I could hear some static sounds when the music/sound was not playing AND frequency in Windows was set to 44.1khz. 48khz and higher solved this problem. But since optical connection works perfectly without any of these issues I'm using that at the moment.
   
  Luckily USB and SPDIF sound exactly the same to my ears.
   
  Great unit btw 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 PRO 900 and Denon D7000 with this thing is bass head heaven 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Another thing is that those Filter and OS switches make absolutely zero changes to the sound. Everything sounds the same.


----------



## FauDrei

Filters are rather subtle, but you should be hearing different OS settings.


----------



## silverbox

Do I have to resample to higher than 44100hz in foobar before I can use the OS switches?


----------



## FauDrei

No. 44,1KHz is OK.
   
  Try listening to whole decently recorded album on one setting and then listen again the same album on other setting. Quick switching just confuses you. I would tell you what to listen for when changing OS levels, but that would subconsciously bias your listening sessions.


----------



## silverbox

Thanks, I'll listen to it some more.


----------



## Disharmonic

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> I don't know about macs, but optical and coax SPDIF signals output from a computer have to pass trough a sound card first. With USB, the NFB-12 acts as a stand-alone external sound card. When you use SPDIF, be it optical or electrical, you are really using your computer's audio card. The audio signal is processed by the card and sent over the digital out. It bypasses the DAC, but the signal is still re-encoded by the CODEC chip.


 
   
  Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Thanks for the info. So there is no way to actually bypass the soundcard? I thought that was the entire point of buying an external DAC?
> 
> This is what it says when I use USB with my NFB 12.1:


 
  Well actually the audio isn't decoded to analog just digitally transmitted through the sp/dif interface so you're not actually using the the DAC part of your soundcard, just the sp/dif transmitter


----------



## anoxy

So is that the optimal configuration to use with my iMac? Also, should I have it switched to DAC or Headphone? The headphones work in both modes...


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Question for you gentlemen:
> 
> I decided to try out the Optical connection between my NFB 12.1 and iMac. In USB mode, I could change the volume on my iMac, but with Optical that's not the case anymore.
> Is my iMac's internal DAC still being bypassed in Optical mode like it was in USB?
> ...


 

 For best sound quality you should never use the volume on your computer anyway, just keep it at max.  All volumes in your path should be at the unity or max level except the one (and it has to be an analog one) that you are actually using.
   
  Yes, the line outs on the back of your -12 are the DAC out and it skips the headphone amp.  Note, every DAC in the world has an amp built into it to get it to line level and the RCA out's on the back are at line level.  Otherwise you'd be creating big problems with the next amp and your headphones and your ears.
   
  You are not really using your sound card using optical, you just need someplace to convert the signal to optical (or coax) (aka spdif) and that is usually on the sound card.  You are not using the sound card as a sound card or as a DAC so don't worry about that.


----------



## tme110

Quote: 





silverbox said:


> Does anyone else occasionally hear crackling sounds when using USB connection? Usually when I minimize/maximize windows or switch programs. SPDIF doesn't have this problem although when I first connected the device with coaxial cable I could hear some static sounds when the music/sound was not playing AND frequency in Windows was set to 44.1khz. 48khz and higher solved this problem. But since optical connection works perfectly without any of these issues I'm using that at the moment.


 
  That's probably the same reason I never use USB myself.  Besides it always seeming to be too much trouble and you can simple plug in coax and never have to worry about any setting or anything happening on you computer.  But anyway, that is probably usb noise from the usb bus which is very busy depending on how many usb components you have going at any one time.  You can try to use a different usb port (they may not all be the same and they may be using different connections to your motherboard.  You can also make sure youre using a proper usb cable.  I'm not talking any fancy or pricey crap just make sure its a certified usb 2.0 cable which could cost $6 - this is as apposed to usb printer cables or very low end free cables you may have.  This made a difference for me but I admit I was using a usb powered DAC at the time (which the -12 is not) so that could have been the difference.  This whole issue is also why some people have separete media center computers with nothing running on them so nothing interferes with playing music.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> For best sound quality you should never use the volume on your computer anyway, just keep it at max.  All volumes in your path should be at the unity or max level except the one (and it has to be an analog one) that you are actually using.
> 
> *Yes, the line outs on the back of your -12 are the DAC out and it skips the headphone amp.*  Note, every DAC in the world has an amp built into it to get it to line level and the RCA out's on the back are at line level.  Otherwise you'd be creating big problems with the next amp and your headphones and your ears.
> 
> You are not really using your sound card using optical, you just need someplace to convert the signal to optical (or coax) (aka spdif) and that is usually on the sound card.  You are not using the sound card as a sound card or as a DAC so don't worry about that.


 
   
  As I stated many times before, the line out of the NFB-12 do not bypass the amplifier. There is no difference between the 1/4 jack at the front and the RCA at the back. The NFB-12 has a relay that switches between these two outputs, but the signal comes from the amplifier either ways. You could use a TRS cable into the front jack to connect the unit to another amp, and it would be the same thing as the "variable" option using the RCA.
   
  And indeed, this is not a bad thing but a necessity, as you stated. To "skip" the headphone amp, they'd have to build a second amplifier between the DAC and the RCA, or use op-amps. This would simply be silly to do.


----------



## tme110

I guess I just don't buy it then.  I have the -12 too and you're trying to tell me that the RCA outs on it put out 3.5 watts like the headout does?  It is a proper line out signal like any other DAC.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





tme110 said:


> I guess I just don't buy it then.  I have the -12 too and you're trying to tell me that the RCA outs on it put out 3.5 watts like the headout does?  It is a proper line out signal like any other DAC.


 
   
  It _can_ output 3.5w, but that doesn't mean it _forces_ 3.5w into the line out. You cannot force a load to use power, the load uses the power it needs. If you look at the NFB-12's specs, you'll notice that the output power depends on the impedance of the load:
   
  3500mW into 25 ohm 
  1800mW into 50 ohm
  900mW into 100 ohm
  300mW into 300 ohm
  150mW into 600 ohm
   
  If you extrapolate this data, into a 100 Kohm, which is a normal input impedance for an amplifier, you get *0.9 mW* of power. But these are *maximum* values, with the volume to the max.
   
  On "fixed", the output voltage is 2.25V RMS. Into a 100 Kohm load, 2.25V will demand *0.05 mW* of power.
   
  A "proper" line out in consumer audio is ~ 0.3 V RMS, but some Hi-Fi and Pro-audio equipment can go as high as 2 V. So I wouldn't call the NFB-12's line out "proper". I personally prefer louder line levels, as this often translate into better signal to noise ratio. And since the NFB-12's output can be adjusted with the volume knob, you can tune it for anything between 0 and 5V. I seem to remember someone in this thread who measured the signal out of the NFB-12 and concluded that the distortion lowered as the volume was raised, which is another good reason for higher line level signals.


----------



## Matrixnobu

I recommend the usb over the optical. I lost a lot of the soundstaging with the optical. But as a warning I had to get another usb cable cause the one that came with the NFB-12 wasn't very good and I got some dropouts.


----------



## anoxy

Yeah, the only reason I've been using optical is for convenience sake, and because I'm running out of USB ports on my iMac. I need to get a usb hub or something.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





matrixnobu said:


> I recommend the usb over the optical. I lost a lot of the soundstaging with the optical. But as a warning I had to get another usb cable cause the one that came with the NFB-12 wasn't very good and I got some dropouts.


 
   
  Funny - with the original NFB-12 my understanding is complete opposite.  I noticed no difference in sound-stage between optical and USB, but there is apparently some treble roll-off with USB (there was a thread here quite a few months ago where it was discussed and even measured).  Can't say I notice any difference either way - I compared the two a lot when I first got the unit, and couldn't tell the difference.
   
  I think that's why Audio-gd worked on the NFB-15 (essentially an NFB-12 with upgraded USB).
   
  Go with what you prefer (some people prefer rolled off treble) - but my preference definitely optical in this case - simply because I can then use DSPs from my X-Fi if I'm gaming.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Yeah, the only reason I've been using optical is for convenience sake, and because I'm running out of USB ports on my iMac. I need to get a usb hub or something.


 
   
  You should actually try comparing the two - and see if you can actually tell the difference.  Could be enlightening.


----------



## genclaymore

With me I have to use a sound card with my NFB-12 Thur optical, or I get 50% volume when I got to play games. even tho the volume setting is maxed out in windows. Besides the TE7022 making the game stutter. I stil think the volume issue I have with games is a config issue on my end. Since I haven't seen some one mention that games output 50% volume from theirs NFB-12 usb connection. I don't know if it has something to do with the game using the windows sound mixer, or something else.  Interesting enough It doesn't happen when I using a music program even while using Wave out.
   
  I would love to be able to use the USB TE7702  without using a sound card as a Digital transport for gaming if it would just output at 100% volume gaming and not 50%, so I can remove that DG out and have room for Crossfire. Yea I'd use my VIA onboard Spdif out if that wasn't full of similar audio glitch.


----------



## Matrixnobu

That's interesting. Are you using an aftermarket optical cable? I tried the one that came with the unit.
   
   
  Quote:


brooko said:


> Funny - with the original NFB-12 my understanding is complete opposite.  I noticed no difference in sound-stage between optical and USB, but there is apparently some treble roll-off with USB (there was a thread here quite a few months ago where it was discussed and even measured).  Can't say I notice any difference either way - I compared the two a lot when I first got the unit, and couldn't tell the difference.
> 
> I think that's why Audio-gd worked on the NFB-15 (essentially an NFB-12 with upgraded USB).
> 
> Go with what you prefer (some people prefer rolled off treble) - but my preference definitely optical in this case - simply because I can then use DSPs from my X-Fi if I'm gaming.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





matrixnobu said:


> That's interesting. Are you using an aftermarket optical cable? I tried the one that came with the unit.


 
   
  Yep - that's the same cable I'm using.


----------



## knwtmsyn

Could someone please explain to me what the OS and FILTER switches do? Is there any way to get a neutral output from this thing?


----------



## Matrixnobu

The OS changes the way the DA outputs the audio wave. Supposedly the higher the Oversampling the smoother the waveform.
   
  The filter switch gives you an option of differing lowpass filters. All DA's have lowpass filters to get rid of digital noise. This one just gives you the option of different ones.
   
  It's best to try different one's and see what sounds best to you. I'm using 2x oversampling Linear phase softknee filter right now with my Sennheiser HD-545's.
  Quote: 





knwtmsyn said:


> Could someone please explain to me what the OS and FILTER switches do? Is there any way to get a neutral output from this thing?


----------



## knwtmsyn

I have no right to complain about more options! Thanks for the response.


----------



## KimLaroux

Audio-gd posted frequency response graphs of the different settings on their website:
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN_Specs.htm
   
  For me the most obvious difference between the filters is the degree of treble roll-off. All the 2X OS settings have early roll-off. The 8X OS are essentially flat within audible range. With 4X OS, you have the choice. I use the Linear phase "Brickwall" filter simply because it's the 4X OS filter with the best treble extension.
   
  The difference between minimum phase and linear phase has to do with how the pre-ringing and post-ringing are filtered. See this.
   
  I've been meaning to add switches to my NDB-12 so I can more easily compare the filters... but I still haven't figured a clean way to mount the switches. Just thinking about machining such big holes into the enclosure makes me uncomfortable.
   
  These days i just leave the cover unscrewed, so that I can still change the filters without tools. Besides the treble extension, I really can't tell what else is different, even if it seems obvious from the paper I posted. I just wish I knew which one was objectively the best, the one that more precisely reproduces the original analog signal. My guess would be 8X OS, Minimum phase apodizing filter. Sad it's limited to 48Khz input though.


----------



## genclaymore

I tend to use 4x Minimum Phase Soft knee filter my self, some times i try 8x  Minimum phase apodizing but usually switch back.


----------



## anoxy

Could somebody point me to an explanation of all this "linear soft knee minimum phase brickwall" jargon? And also how each term corresponds to the switches on the front of my 12.1?


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Could somebody point me to an explanation of all this "linear soft knee minimum phase brickwall" jargon? And also how each term corresponds to the switches on the front of my 12.1?


 
   
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN_Specs.htm


----------



## anoxy

I can't believe I missed that. Thanks for the link.
   
  So it looks like I have it set to 8x oversampling, linear apodising filter.


----------



## knwtmsyn

They all look the same, is the only difference in the treble?


----------



## Matrixnobu

No. Some of them even affect the bass for some reason. I know it's weird but the 8x minimum phase apodising filter has less bass than some of the other ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Quote: 





knwtmsyn said:


> They all look the same, is the only difference in the treble?


----------



## thisisvv

Thinking to buy this that it can be used to control volume as well
   
  My setup is
   
  PC->Audio-gd->Active crossover->Amp->Speaker
   
   
   
  i want to control volume from the DAC as there is no other place i can contrl the volume output PC is a MPD which send bits perfect to the DAC....
   
  This can act as a preamp with volume control am i right for USB and coaxial input....
   
   
  V


----------



## KimLaroux

Yeah it works as a pre-amp, the volume out of the RCA can be controlled using the fake Alps pot. Funny thing is, since the RCA are the same thing as the headphone out, the High and Low gain mode also affects the volume out of the RCA... which is just silly because the signal is already way too high on low gain with the fixed out.


----------



## thisisvv

Thanks for this...has anyone have any idea if i connected my RCA output from my Classe preamp for HT purpose and i feed into Audio-gd using RCA to Coaxial wire  will it be able to swtich between coaxial and USB which is coming from PC....
   
   
  V


----------



## KimLaroux

By RCA you mean digital audio over coaxial? If that's the case, then yes. Though the NFB-12 will only be able to decode stereo PCM signal. It's unable to decode surround or any other digital encoding. Most DVDs these days are encoded in AC-3 or similar. Some have a PCM stereo track, but they are getting rarer. If your preamp supports it, it may be able to re-encode the input signal into stereo PCM, though I've no experience with pre-amps so I'm just guessing here.


----------



## Elanzer

The complaints about the heat of the NFB-12 seem to be legitimate. I left mine on for about 2 days (listening to music while I'm sleeping, listening to it while I'm awake), and suddenly it powered off. Touching the top of the unit was nuclear, too hot to touch.

I think it has a bad power supply, nothing looks burnt or blown inside. It's safe to say that it was killed by heat. Room temp at death was a fairly chilly 8'c / 46'f as well..


----------



## anoxy

Why not just turn it off when you're not using it...? It's a flick of a switch. I doubt you listened to it 48 hours straight with no breaks.


----------



## Elanzer

anoxy said:


> Why not just turn it off when you're not using it...? It's a flick of a switch. I doubt you listened to it 48 hours straight with no breaks.




The problem is that I'm using it while I sleep, as in I'm listening to music then fall asleep with it on. Then immediately when I'm up in the morning, I'm using it again, so it doesn't get a period to rest.


----------



## anoxy

No. Your headphones are not on your head 48 hours straight. If that's the case, you have bigger problems than an overheating headphone amp.


----------



## Elanzer

anoxy said:


> No. Your headphones are not on your head 48 hours straight. If that's the case, you have bigger problems than an overheating headphone amp.




I'm not using my headphones on while I'm sleeping. I'm using it as a DAC to my powered speakers which plays music that I fall asleep to, then when I get up I turn off the speakers and use the headphone output.


----------



## anoxy

So you never leave your home? And you never turn off your music? How do you get food? When is the last time you saw the sun?


----------



## Elanzer

anoxy said:


> So you never leave your home? And you never turn off your music? How do you get food? When is the last time you saw the sun?




I didn't leave my home for a period of 2 days, no.

I listen to music or otherwise use audio output at all times when I'm at home, yes.

How do I get food? From my fridge. Why would I turn off the amp going to the fridge? I only go grocery shopping once every couple weeks.

I saw the sun this morning.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





elanzer said:


> The complaints about the heat of the NFB-12 seem to be legitimate. I left mine on for about 2 days (listening to music while I'm sleeping, listening to it while I'm awake), and suddenly it powered off. Touching the top of the unit was nuclear, too hot to touch.
> I think it has a bad power supply, nothing looks burnt or blown inside. It's safe to say that it was killed by heat. Room temp at death was a fairly chilly 8'c / 46'f as well..


 
   
  That's interesting. And it still is not working, even after cool down?
   
  By powered off, you mean that nothing works anymore? The LED doesn't light up, it's not recognized as a DAC trough USB, no audio out.... Since it has a different power supply for each of these features, if nothing works you probably burned the transformer itself.
   
  This thing was not designed to pass safety and performances tests like the ones performed by UL. It's not designed to be used non-stop for days. I'm not really surprised it died.


----------



## Elanzer

kimlaroux said:


> That's interesting. And it still is not working, even after cool down?
> 
> By powered off, you mean that nothing works anymore? The LED doesn't light up, it's not recognized as a DAC trough USB, no audio out.... Since it has a different power supply for each of these features, if nothing works you probably burned the transformer itself.
> 
> This thing was not designed to pass safety and performances tests like the ones performed by UL. It's not designed to be used non-stop for days. I'm not really surprised it died.




Well, it seems to be a blown power supply because that's where the extreme temperatures were originating from.

I opened it up to check out the internals and let it cool off for awhile. It turns on, but with it set to High gain it shuts off the power LED and the output has buzzing in it, then after about 5 minutes it loses power. With it set to Low gain, it fares a bit better: the power LED stays on and it does not buzz, but eventually gives out after about 10 minutes and shuts off.

I guess when I get it back from repair I'll set it ontop of my PC, that way the 140mm exhaust fan ontop can provide some active cooling for the NFB-12. Having it on a desk with a clear surrounding in almost freezing room temp isn't enough for 2 days of operation apparently.


----------



## Warrax

I have NFB11.32 and let it on, runing music for 48 hours, and nothing happened. Yes, it is hot.
   
  NFB11.32 is in burning-in period, so I let it to play during night, and during day.
   
  And to listen to it for 2 days, I don't see anything wrong with it... for example, man can be ill and need to be at home... can happen.


----------



## Matrixnobu

I've had mine on for months now. And no problems. You guys with overheating problems had bad luck.


----------



## anoxy

Is anybody pairing another amp or dac with their NFB 12? Is it worth it?
   
  I'll be using it primarily with Mad Dogs.


----------



## KimLaroux

I have an hybrid tube amplifier that I sometimes use with the NFB-12. Most of the time though I use my headphones directly from the NFB-12. In my opinion, it has plenty of power on it's own to drive just about anything.
   
  Besides, using another amplifier with the NFB-12 seems silly. The RCA outputs are connected to the output of the amplifier, so connecting them to another amp is essentially amplifying an amplified signal. The signal is not cleaner out of the RCA than out of the headphone jack, so there really isn't much gain in using another amplifier. In fact, it can only be worse. Making the audio signal go trough yet another amplifier cannot make the signal cleaner than it is, or give you more resolution. The external amplifier will _add_ it's own noise and distortion to the signal. It will _not replace_ the noise and distortion of the NFB-12's amplifier, because the signal still goes trough the NFB-12's amplifier.
   
  Just thinking about it gives me a headache... lol.
   
  I mean if you want to use a cleaner amplifier than what the NFB-12 already has, then you should get a cleaner DAC too. Something simple, with very little processing. And normal line-level voltages...


----------



## HeatFan12

When you plug in another amp to the dac out does it not bypass the internal amp? Can't you set it to variable or fixed?


Sent from my iPad from Ultrasone Planet using Tapatalk HD


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





heatfan12 said:


> When you plug in another amp to the dac out does it not bypass the internal amp? Can't you set it to variable or fixed?


 
   
  No, it does not bypass the internal amplifier. I dissasembled my NFB-12 many times and studied the circuit. There's a wire going from the RCA connector to the front of the unit. It's connected to a relay that switches between the headphone out and the RCA. The other end of the relay is connected to the output of the internal amplifier. For the curious, this is the relay right next to the headphone socket.
   
  When you toggle the HP/Variable/Fixed switch, you're just switching the relay that changes the output of the amplifier. In "fixed" mode, this relay stays in the same state as in "variable", sending the output to the RCA. "Fixed" triggers a second relay that bypasses the volume knob. It fixes the output volume at 50% trough a pair of resistors. This relay is placed right behind the volume knob. Electrically, it's half-way trough the amplifier.
   
  There'a another pair of relays installed between the DAC chips and the amplifier that changes the "gain" of the amplifier. It's simply a set of different values resistor that attenuate the signal (it's a current signal) before it gets to the amplifier.
   
  You probably noticed yourself that the High and Low gain setting also affects the level of the RCA output... what did you make of that?
   
  I can't help but find the use of so many relays a dirty way to add features. I mean, the signal goes trough 3 relays! Relays are mechanical things, and they do fail. If only one of the 4 relays failed, your unit will be stuck with in the configuration the relay failed in.
   
  But what's even more ridiculous is this quote from the FUN's description:
   


> [size=x-small]The [/size][size=10pt]FUN will come in a 100-127V version and a 220-240 version, depending on the geographical location and customer’s choice. *The reason we don't make it with a selectable voltage is that *1: We are afraid if customers choose the wrong voltage, they will wreck their unit, and 2: *While in low quality audio equipment, you can't hear the effect on the sound quality of using a selectable voltage switch, in hi-quality gear, which includes the FUN, the deterimental effects of using a voltage selection switch will be audible, not to mention the positive effects of a better power cable.*[/size]


 
   
  There's an obvious lack of integrity here. Audio-gd seems to believe a switch on a main's power line will affect sound quality. They also claim "better" power cables have "positive effects". But still they place 4 relays inside the audio signal path of the NFB-12. Ridiculous nonsense.
   
  The cross-talk between the channels of the NFB-12 is remarkably higher than my DIY'ed tube hybrid, which has none. I'm totally blaming this on the overuse of relays.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Is anybody pairing another amp or dac with their NFB 12? Is it worth it?
> 
> I'll be using it primarily with Mad Dogs.


 
   
  I use mine quite a lot with my LD MKIV.  I have noted what KimLaroux says above (and totally agree with him re crosstalk) ........ but what can I say ....... I like the sound of the NFB-12 and LD MKIV combo


----------



## Chris_Himself

Mine is literally on 24 hours a day for maybe a week at a time. I only turn it off when I transport it or I'm away from home for more than 48 hours. It gets warm at best, it just sits on my desk.
   
  Am I silly thinking of running this thing out to a Schiit Mjolnir? I'm feeling too stingy to buy a Gungnir and I've always been supersticious about spending serious money on a DAC.
   
  Also should I be messing around with the filters? I feel like I should be getting more bass out of my LCD-2's =/


----------



## HeatFan12

Great info. Thanks KimL.


----------



## dwinnert

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> No, it does not bypass the internal amplifier. I dissasembled my NFB-12 many times and studied the circuit. There's a wire going from the RCA connector to the front of the unit. It's connected to a relay that switches between the headphone out and the RCA. The other end of the relay is connected to the output of the internal amplifier. For the curious, this is the relay right next to the headphone socket.
> 
> When you toggle the HP/Variable/Fixed switch, you're just switching the relay that changes the output of the amplifier. In "fixed" mode, this relay stays in the same state as in "variable", sending the output to the RCA. "Fixed" triggers a second relay that bypasses the volume knob. It fixes the output volume at 50% trough a pair of resistors. This relay is placed right behind the volume knob. Electrically, it's half-way trough the amplifier.
> 
> ...


 
  Is this verified that the amp is not bypassed.....Not saying you are not correct, just looking for other sources. If so, it kinda bums me out. I have a NFB-12 that can run forever and not overheat, but I have been thinking of using another HP Amp to use with the 12's DAC.
   
  Oh well......


----------



## anoxy

Can somebody tell me what the difference between the HP and DAC options are on the NFB 12.1? Switching it doesn't seem to make any difference...I know, sorry for the dumb question :3


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Can somebody tell me what the difference between the HP and DAC options are on the NFB 12.1? Switching it doesn't seem to make any difference...I know, sorry for the dumb question :3


 
   
  It's supposed to switch between the 1/4" jack at the front and the RCA connectors at the back.
   
  Do you have anything connected trough the RCA? Does it work?


----------



## anoxy

Nope, nothing connected via RCA, just Optical to my iMac.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Nope, nothing connected via RCA, just Optical to my iMac.


 
   
  Optical is a digital input, which is unrelated to the problem.
   
  So if I understand correctly, you have signal out of the 1/4" jack, no matter the position of the Output switch?
   
  If this is the case, then you have a defective unit. You should have no signal out of the RCA, since the selection is done using a relay and a relay cannot be in two states at the same time.
   
  It could be as simple as a broken wire or solder joint. It could be a dead relay. Or a defective switch. In any case, anyone who knows their way around a circuit board will have no problem debugging and fixing it. It's a very simple circuit.
   
  But then if you don't need the RCA, you don't really need to get it fixed. Performances should not be affected by such a problem.


----------



## asdafaasda

Even though I'm in fixed mode, the volume pot still affects the volume. Does this happen to anyone else?


----------



## SidiousX

Have you read manual and placed your jumper correctly?
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN_Use.htm
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB11/NFB1110.jpg


----------



## asdafaasda

Thanks! I opened it up and the jumpers were indeed in the wrong location.
  
  EDIT: Never mind, it says "NFB-12" on the board, but there are no filters, weird.
  EDIT2: Searched this thread and found out that my NFB-12 is an early model with no filter settings.
  Does anyone know which setting it's equivalent to?
  EDIT3: Fixed output is still being affected by the volume pot!


----------



## SidiousX

Vide Edit 3
  My first quess is the jumper might be broken / not working. Along with the unit you should have bag with spare jumpers, try to use another one and double check if its placed securely and in correct position.


----------



## asdafaasda

Quote: 





sidiousx said:


> Vide Edit 3
> My first quess is the jumper might be broken / not working. Along with the unit you should have bag with spare jumpers, try to use another one and double check if its placed securely and in correct position.


 

 Unfortunately, I bought it off another person, and they did not include the replacement jumpers.
  Would there be a difference in sound quality if I use variable as DAC out if I connect it to another amp? Also, are there replacement jumpers available online?


----------



## SidiousX

From sound quality point of view, if you are using integrated amplifier fixed signal from DAC should be deliver. If you are using power amp, you could use NFB-12 as pre-am in this case fixed is not required. Concerning jumpers from mu experienced this jumpers are not different than used in pc mainboards (for i.e. clear cmos), so you coud try pc shops, pc repair etc. Alternatively you could PM Kingwa and ask them about availablility of jumpers.


----------



## KimLaroux

Yeah those jumpers are super common. I got a jar filled with them. Anyone who spent some time building computers should have a stack of them. A computer repair shop should have buckets of them. Let's just say paying for such an item is just silly.
   
  If you're in Canada, just PM me your address and I'll post you some.
   
  Though you should verify that the jumper really is the problem. If you're confident in the steadiness of your hands, you could try shorting the pin together with a metal object while the unit is powered. I'm not responsible if you short something else, though. 
   
  BTW the FIXED volume is the same as when the pot is in the middle. So if you wanna test it, don't leave the pot in the middle, but more like 1/4 volume.
   
  Though you don't even have to test the volume out. If you place the Output switch to FIXED and short the pins bellow the jumper in this picture, you should hear a relay click. It should also click if you insert a working jumper while it's in this state.
   
  If nothing clicks, then you indeed have a problem.


----------



## anoxy

So back to my question earlier. When I flip the switch to "DAC," sound should stop coming out of the headphone jack? Because that's not the case. 
   
  Current configuration is Optical > iMac. Nothing else plugged into the NFB12.


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> So back to my question earlier. When I flip the switch to "DAC," sound should stop coming out of the headphone jack? Because that's not the case.
> 
> Current configuration is Optical > iMac. Nothing else plugged into the NFB12.


 
   
  Yes, it should. Your unit is clearly defective.


----------



## anoxy

Any advice? Think I would have any luck contacting Audio-gd to get it fixed or replaced?


----------



## KimLaroux

Just write them an email and ask. I've had good experience contacting them trough e-mails.
   
  I think you'll have to cover the shipping cost to send it back oversea. If that's the case, maybe you could shop around locally for someone who could fix it. I have a feeling it's a super simple problem - probably a dead relay, a bad solder or a broken wire. It may be cheaper - and faster - to get it fixed locally.


----------



## anoxy

Welp, it turns out I'm just an idiot and had the jumper in the wrong slot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. All I had to do was swap the cable and jumper positions and it works correctly now.
   
  Customer service was top notch...exchanged several e-mails with Kingwa and he responded within minutes each time. Glad I got that sorted.


----------



## Elanzer

For those of you that had to return equipment to audio-gd, what address did you ship to? I've had my NFB-12 and T1 sitting in a box unable to use either for a few months now and I want to get around to shipping it, but the user pays shipping both ways and the mess of a shipping address Audio-gd has provided me with is this:

"No.1502 Room 16 building Yu-jing Garden Jin-Bi new building Leliu Town Shunde District Foshan City Guangdong province China"

I really don't know what to write on the box before I send it, because if I just write that down I'm sure it will just get returned to me and I'll lose the $40 or whatever it costs to ship it back to them.


----------



## Cya|\|

Is this thread also valid for the nfb-15.32?
  I was wondering if it is possible to use the EQ with the usb connection too. I'm not talking about a player EQ, but an overall system EQ. I use my pc as transport, so I would like my sound to be constantly equalized, even when watching youtube, or playing videogames.


----------



## anoxy

Is it better to use low gain instead of high gain?


----------



## Brooko

anoxy said:


> Is it better to use low gain instead of high gain?



Use the lowest gain that still gives adequate volume (including covering very dynamic music). The gain changes the volume - it doesn't change quality. 

By going lowest gain setting that still allows normal listening - you then have much finer control of volume. Sometimes using higher gain can take away a lot of the available 'play' you would have had on the pot - so you effectively end up limiting your volume options.


----------



## anoxy

Makes sense. Thanks


----------



## AF115

Quote: 





asdafaasda said:


> ...
> Does anyone know which setting it's equivalent to?
> ...


 
  I asked the same to Audio-gd one year ago. Here is their answer:
  "The old NFB12 was set to 2X oversampling, filter 3."


----------



## Chris_Himself

I just went from Mjolnir to NFB-12 after a week.

All I can say is:

AudioGD does an amazing amp for the money. My "spend more, get more" mentality has almost been shut down completely by this brand of products. I went to a meet the other day and people are still using AudioGD dedicated DAC's to power their multithousand dollar rigs. I learned a lot about sound to dollar value perception that day.

My Gung/Mjo setup is fantastic, but still, I noticed a huge difference going to lesser amps than AGD, and not an otherworldly difference going up from it. I think the NFB-15 based on specs and history alone, would be my #1 pick under $500


----------



## Lorspeaker

i went for the balanced option, NFB10 .....under 500....and had been smilinnnnnnnnnng since.


----------



## Chris_Himself

lorspeaker said:


> i went for the balanced option, NFB10 .....under 500....and had been smilinnnnnnnnnng since.




Yeah I was on the Nuforce HDP bandwagon. The HDP is a better DAC and has every single input/output in the world short of XLR, and better build quality, but the NFB series of amps have GOBS of power. Like HE-500 levels of power...

2.8watts of power at 32ohms behind a dual WM8741 DAC?

SOLD.

We need someone brave enough to become a US distributor for this brand though. I detect at it's low price, there isn't a lot of room for distribution pricing though. Although with the right promoting and proper translation of their literature, we'd have some pretty healthy competition for our US audio brands.


----------



## Lorspeaker

my gripe with the hd/hdp is that i cant plug a big powercord into that dac directly...
  that power adaptor with that skinny wire just bothered me as the days dragged on. lol.
   
  the audiogd sounded tall big n airy off the bat...oh what hv i been missing.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> Yeah I was on the Nuforce HDP bandwagon. The HDP is a better DAC and has every single input/output in the world short of XLR, and better build quality, but the NFB series of amps have GOBS of power. Like HE-500 levels of power...
> 
> 2.8watts of power at 32ohms behind a dual WM8741 DAC?
> 
> ...


 

 They used to have a US distribution but I don't know what happen which caused them to loose them. But yea I agree having a usa one would make things easier.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> They used to have a US distribution but I don't know what happen which caused them to loose them. But yea I agree having a usa one would make things easier.


 

 Genclaymore, I'm just joking but cmon thats your get rich quick plan buddy!


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I just went from Mjolnir to NFB-12 after a week.
> 
> All I can say is:
> 
> ...


 
   
  I was quite shocked when I saw that:
   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Favx6yHzqGc
   
  And I've been wondering what was going on here. Usually, people hide their "mid-fi" gear besides their higher-end stuff. To see the NFB-12 stacked on top of the Schiit duo like this tells me it can keep up to it.
   
  When you say that you "went from Mjolnir to NFB-12", are you saying you will be selling the Schiit combo and only use the NFB-12 from now on? To power a LCD-3?!?


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





kimlaroux said:


> I was quite shocked when I saw that:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Favx6yHzqGc
> ...


 
   
  1. LCD-2 is what I brought. I borrowed Schiit's LCD-3 and Mjo/Gung setup. Thanks to Jason for letting me listen to my own rig more or less without actually having mine setup lol.
  2. I would be more than happy to bring a piece of mid-fi gear out, it's nice to bring the gear porn, but honestly I was quite intrigued by the showing of AudioGD products at the meet. Even at the top end, people are still considering cost/performance I see. It's very difficult to beat the Mjo/Gung setup though going solid state to solid state. I know for a fact that Burson Soloist can keep up, but it's not balanced, so we probably don't get as much separation between L/R. The V200 didn't show itself, I REALLY wanted to see one.
  3. Yes I would confidently power an LCD-3 using an NFB series amp/dac. It's more than competent and has enough input/outputs to stay competitive.
  4. Dude, I left my optical cable at home. So the stack is just for show. But hey I caught some attention here didn't I? LOL I'm sorry guys, I know you probably really wanted to hear it. Anybody local is welcome to come over and listen to my setup. Bring cookies.


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I just went from Mjolnir to NFB-12 after a week.
> 
> All I can say is:
> 
> ...


 
   
  I just received my NFB-12 today from another Head-fi member.
   
  Like *Chris_Himself*, I'm stunned by this little beauty.
   
  Unlike my DAC1-PRE, this sweet HP Amp powers my DT-880, 600OHM easily with the flip of a button (as opposed to an internal jumper). Scads of clean power, great tonality... and punch! And for my highly efficient D7000 (or IEM's), with the flip of the same button, I won't have 'too much power'.
  The Benchmark is clean and neutral, but just a touch on the sterile side. The NFB-12 has a wonderful musicality and well... warmth(?)... richness, that the Benchmark does not have.
   
  Very impressed. I think I may get another one... new, larger... for my more elaborate setup.
   
  Cheers.


----------



## KimLaroux




----------



## Chris_Himself

I'm debating trying their balanced rig.. are there any thread on those? I'm pretty much 50% sure I'm going to try one of those. These are miracle boxes where you just want 90% of what your headphone can do without spending $1000+


----------



## etys rule

Hi all.  Forgive me for not reading 147 pages of posts, but I am considering buying the NFB-12.  My only concern is I listen primarily to rock, metal, folk/rock (SRV) and like my music musical and dark.  Will be listening through HE-400 as these are my only phones presently.  May upgrade to LCD2.
   
  In your opinion, would I be happy with the NFB-12?  If not, would there be any Audio-gd products I'd be happy with or are they more neutral for the most part.
   
  *I use the term neutral to describe sound as recorded on medium without any coloration.  I happen to like coloration.  Thanks.


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





etys rule said:


> Hi all.  Forgive me for not reading 147 pages of posts, but I am considering buying the NFB-12.  My only concern is I listen primarily to rock, metal, folk/rock (SRV) and like my music musical and dark.  Will be listening through HE-400 as these are my only phones presently.  May upgrade to LCD2.
> 
> In your opinion, would I be happy with the NFB-12?  If not, would there be any Audio-gd products I'd be happy with or are they more neutral for the most part.
> 
> *I use the term neutral to describe sound as recorded on medium without any coloration.  I happen to like coloration.  Thanks.


 
   
  Yes youll be happy. It does everything. If you're looking for a balanced version the 10.32 looks great on paper, but I haven't heard it myself.


----------



## captouch

Quote: 





etys rule said:


> Hi all.  Forgive me for not reading 147 pages of posts, but I am considering buying the NFB-12.  My only concern is I listen primarily to rock, metal, folk/rock (SRV) and like my music musical and dark.  Will be listening through HE-400 as these are my only phones presently.  May upgrade to LCD2.
> 
> In your opinion, would I be happy with the NFB-12?  If not, would there be any Audio-gd products I'd be happy with or are they more neutral for the most part.
> 
> *I use the term neutral to describe sound as recorded on medium without any coloration.  I happen to like coloration.  Thanks.


 
   
  I think the NFB-12 is on the warm/darker side of neutral, so I think you'd be fine with them.  When I used my DT880/600's with them, I liked the coloration it gave.  I thought it tamed the highs just a bit, added some bass weight, and overall added some flesh to everything.


----------



## etys rule

captouch, thanks for the response. As the consensus on Audio-gd products seems to me to be all over the road, depending on who you ask, I am hoping to narrow down my choices before I pull the trigger.


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





captouch said:


> I think the NFB-12 is on the warm/darker side of neutral, so I think you'd be fine with them.  When I used my DT880/600's with them, I liked the coloration it gave.  I thought it tamed the highs just a bit, added some bass weight, and overall added some flesh to everything.


 
   
  In my limited use, I would agree with this statement.
  I also found my DT880-600's to be more tollerable (in terms of their extreme highs).
  The NFB-12 seemed to add punch and weight... as compared to the Benchmark DAC1-PRE (which I've had for years).


----------



## KimLaroux

I too think you'll like the NFB-12. With my Q701, I found the NFB-12 to be a very good choice. It makes them less fatiguing and overall more pleasurable.


----------



## anoxy

So I just built a computer, coming from an iMac. I'm using optical out just like I did with my iMac, but on my new PC it sounds awful. Really tinny and electronic (?) sounding. What gives?


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> So I just built a computer, coming from an iMac. I'm using optical out just like I did with my iMac, but on my new PC it sounds awful. Really tinny and electronic (?) sounding. What gives?


 
   
  Well... how are you feeding it? Coax, optical, USB? How did you feed it before, what software, type of files, etc... ? Lots of variables.


----------



## anoxy

....did you even read the post you responded to lol? Clearly says optical out just like before. Same software, iTunes. Apple lossless files.


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> ....did you even read the post you responded to lol? Clearly says optical out just like before. Same software, iTunes. Apple lossless files.


 
   
  Oops... I guess I missed that part. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  OK then... I remember reading a while back that iTunes on Mac's 'sound' better due to its ability to play bitperfect on Macs, but not on PC's. There may be other factors. I don't use iTunes on my PC's. I use JRiver, which sounds better to me.
  This seems true whether the files I play are Lossless or high bitrate (24/96).
 You can try JRiver Jukebox for free. It might help.
   
  Also... your PC may be outputting at a downgraded or upgraded rate. You may want to check it's not up, or down-converting for you.


----------



## anoxy

Wow, JRiver is awesome. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. As a long time mac user, i'm still trying to find Windows alternatives to all of my beloved OS X apps. This one is a keeper.
   
  How would I go about checking to see if my computer is down-sampling?


----------



## shane55

Control Panel > Hardware & Sound > Sound > Double-click on the device you are outputting from. There you will see all your options for that device.
  Change devices if necessary, but on the tab "Advanced", make sure you chose 24bit / 96khz (Studio Quality), and test it.
  Make sure Enhancements are disabled (checkbox)
  Output (Levels) at 100%.
  And as for the Supported Formats tab... that's up to you and your device. I'd check 44, 48, 88, 96, 192, whatever along those lines are available to you.
   
  Click OK to all when done.
   
  Now that won't ensure perfection...
   
  You need to go into the Options in JRiver, and make sure *WASAPI* is checked for bitperfect playback.
  Tools > Options > Audio > Audio output > Output Mode.  (This is the menu for JRiver Media Center... may be a bit different for Jukebox.
   
  Good luck.
   
  EDIT: If you have a device like ASUS Xonar STX, or some other high-end soundboard, be sure to check all your output options for that. It will be specific to the board.


----------



## anoxy

Heck ya, you're the man shane. Thanks for all of your help. Sounds a hell of a lot better now. I think i'll fork out the 50 bones for Jriver once my trial is up too.


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Heck ya, you're the man shane. Thanks for all of your help. Sounds a hell of a lot better now. I think i'll fork out the 50 bones for Jriver once my trial is up too.


 
   
  Rock on, my friend.


----------



## anoxy

Are any of you using your NFB-12 in a speaker set-up?


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Are any of you using your NFB-12 in a speaker set-up?


 
   
  Yes I am.
  I'm sending the DAC out to my Pioneer Elite (ICE class D) receiver, then to my Ascends.
   
  Brilliant.


----------



## anoxy

Nice!
I just ordered some Emotiva Airmotiv 4 powered speakers for my computer station. Do you know if i'll I be able to hook them up to the NFB-12?

Or rather, I should be asking what cables I will need to accomplish this...
It says they have an XLR input and single ended RCA input. So do I just need RCA-->3.5mm cable?


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> Nice!
> I just ordered some Emotiva Airmotiv 4 powered speakers for my computer station. Do you know if i'll I be able to hook them up to the NFB-12?
> 
> Or rather, I should be asking what cables I will need to accomplish this...
> It says they have an XLR input and single ended RCA input. So do I just need RCA-->3.5mm cable?


 
   
  RCA -> RCA?


----------



## anoxy

I feel like an idiot here, but that doesn't look like an RCA input:
http://imageshack.us/a/img607/8726/airmotiv4.jpg


----------



## khaine1711

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> I feel like an idiot here, but that doesn't look like an RCA input:
> http://imageshack.us/a/img607/8726/airmotiv4.jpg


 

 They are RCAs just not color marked (red/white) like other RCA stuff.


----------



## anoxy

But I mean there is only one port. I thought RCA was two?

So I guess I would probably need one of these in addition to a regular Red/White RCA cable?

http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-CYA-1M2F-P-Ultra-2-Female-Subwoofer/dp/B005DL2OVE/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1365093682&sr=1-5&keywords=rca+y+cable


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> But I mean there is only one port. I thought RCA was two?
> 
> So I guess I would probably need one of these in addition to a regular Red/White RCA cable?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-CYA-1M2F-P-Ultra-2-Female-Subwoofer/dp/B005DL2OVE/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1365093682&sr=1-5&keywords=rca+y+cable


 
   
  One on each speaker? So one would get the left feed, and the other the right?
  Sorry... confused.


----------



## khaine1711

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> But I mean there is only one port. I thought RCA was two?
> 
> So I guess I would probably need one of these in addition to a regular Red/White RCA cable?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-CYA-1M2F-P-Ultra-2-Female-Subwoofer/dp/B005DL2OVE/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1365093682&sr=1-5&keywords=rca+y+cable


 
   
  Quote: 





shane55 said:


> One on each speaker? So one would get the left feed, and the other the right?
> Sorry... confused.


 
   
  Yes. Both speakers have their own power/volume level knob, and one RCA/XLR input each.


----------



## anoxy

LOL I feel so dumb. I was thinking only one speaker had inputs on the back....sorry guys


----------



## shane55

Right... well then, I would think RCA -> RCA, one to each speaker.
  Left from the (left) DAC output to the Left speaker.
  Right from the (right) DAC output to the Right speaker.
   
  No? I must be missing something...


----------



## shane55

Quote: 





anoxy said:


> LOL I feel so dumb. I was thinking only one speaker had inputs on the back....sorry guys


 
   
  Ha! Just saw this after I posted mine.
   
  No worries... Enjoy! Looks like a good little system!


----------



## JIGF

Im having trouble using ASIO on Windows 7 with this DAC. WASAPI works fine though. Any idea what it might be?


----------



## Makaan

Is anyone try this amp with HE500 ?
  
 I'm looking for an amp to feed my baby


----------



## i019791

I had tried it. Nice with HE500, considering the price.


----------



## anoxy

nevermind.


----------



## Matrixnobu

I've been listening to Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 250ohm on the NFB-12. They sound very nice with this amp.


----------



## shane55

matrixnobu said:


> I've been listening to Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 250ohm on the NFB-12. They sound very nice with this amp.


 
  
 Yes!
 I, and many of my Head-fi meet friends have noticed how good my DT880-600's sound with this DAC. Very 'acoustic' with a slight warmth.


----------



## Matrixnobu

shane55 said:


> Yes!
> I, and many of my Head-fi meet friends have noticed how good my DT880-600's sound with this DAC. Very 'acoustic' with a slight warmth.


 
  
 This Dac/Amp impressed me with many of the Beyerdynamic headphones. I've listened to DT880's 600ohm, T1's, as well as these DT 770 250ohm headphones and all sounded nice with this amp. So far though the DT 770 250ohm being my favorite match.


----------



## MrEleventy

Hey guys. Just got a NFB-12 and was wondering if anyone had issues setting the NFB-12 to 24bit via Windows? It shows it as an option but when I set it and hit playback I get an error message saying that the test track couldn't be played. 

Setup is : laptop (Windows 8.1 Pro) >> 7 port usb hub (self-powered) >> NFB-12 >> DT880/600ohm. 

I haven't had the chance to pop the top off to check the filter settings yet but reading the manual on the Audio-GD site, filters seem to effect only freq range. Thanks.


----------



## SaLX

You might have more luck asking here as it basically covers all the Audio_gd's: http://www.head-fi.org/t/638252/audio-gd-usb-32-firmware-drivers-and-feedback-thread/180#post_10229578


----------



## i019791

salx said:


> You might have more luck asking here as it basically covers all the Audio_gd's: http://www.head-fi.org/t/638252/audio-gd-usb-32-firmware-drivers-and-feedback-thread/180#post_10229578


 
 I think that the NFB-12 uses a Tenor usb chip, and not the usb-32


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## MrEleventy

i019791 said:


> I think that the NFB-12 uses a Tenor usb chip, and not the usb-32


Correct.



salx said:


> You might have more luck asking here as it basically covers all the Audio_gd's: http://www.head-fi.org/t/638252/audio-gd-usb-32-firmware-drivers-and-feedback-thread/180#post_10229578


Thanks for the suggestion, but I solved it. Turns out that using a different usb port fixed it. I don't know if I need to keep that slot empty or what. I'll continue to test it out.


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## atupal

My zero DAC's power button stopped working two weeks ago and it cannot be switched off anymore.
  
  
 Looking forward to purchase new or 2nd hand audio gd dac/amp as replacement
  
 The offers are:
 1. new NFB-15.32 $240
 2. new NFB-11.32 $300
 3. 2nd hand NFB-5.2 $230
 4. 2nd hand NFB-12 $160
  
 would like to have some recommendation before I can decide which should I take.
 many thanks.


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## i019791

I would go with the NFB-5.2, which is a better and more flexible unit from the rest
 If you use the usb input, the NFB-12 is clearly below of all other options


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## Matrixnobu

I wouldn't discount the nfb-12 though. It's a decent amp/dac.


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## tim3320070

More than decent, it's excellent


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## Matrixnobu

I agree. I've had mine for about three years now. And I never felt like I ever needed to make a change. And its well made. I've had mine turned on day and night for all this time and no problems whatsoever.


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## shane55

It is excellent, and an amazing match for certain headphones. (DT880...)


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## Brooko

shane55 said:


> It is excellent, and an amazing match for certain headphones. (DT880...)


 
  
 Yep - this ^^
  
 Also the HD600 shines with it.


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## bassaddicted

Anyone want to sell me their NFB 12? I already own the 10.33 and its great.


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## Soundsgoodtome

When you guys use the line out, regardless of variable or fixed level, do you guys use low or high gain?

I seem to get better sound with it on high gain while using line out to my c2 class a


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## Brooko

High gain on variable when using my passive monitors
  
 Low gain on fixed when going to the Little Dot.  The LD has plenty of power anyway - so makes no sense going high gain and raising the noise floor.


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## Soundsgoodtome

I ask because to me the high gain seem to have better dynamics with a healthier bottom end (on the NFB11 btw). 



brooko said:


> High gain on variable when using my passive monitors
> 
> Low gain on fixed when going to the Little Dot.  The LD has plenty of power anyway - so makes no sense going high gain and raising the noise floor.


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## Brooko

You'll probably find that you're listening slightly louder on high gain (ie not volume matched between high and low). It's a common mistake to make. High gain is doing nothing except raise the volume- so things like "dynamics" can't be affected.

Next time you compare - try either raising the volume on low or lowering it on high.


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## Soundsgoodtome

I'll level match wIth my db meter tonight and loop a 10sec dynamic segment. I could be wrong with the level match but even when i raised the volume on my amp it seems to still have a thinner bass.



brooko said:


> You'll probably find that you're listening slightly louder on high gain (ie not volume matched between high and low). It's a common mistake to make. High gain is doing nothing except raise the volume- so things like "dynamics" can't be affected.
> 
> Next time you compare - try either raising the volume on low or lowering it on high.


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## Brooko

Will be very interested to see your findings. What headphones are you using?


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## Soundsgoodtome

HE560 mainly, I have the hd650 as well but my main phone is the hifiman.



brooko said:


> Will be very interested to see your findings. What headphones are you using?


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## thesharkbite

Hi everyone, wondering if anyone can tell me about pairing the nFB12 with a senn HD700?

Im looking at the toslink input from an audioengine b1, playing spotify and lossless from my iTunes. My current amp is a Schiit Vali paired with a jurassic superpro 707 (Wonderful expansive cirrus logic chip). 

To me the hd700 sounds similar to my dt880/600 and im wondering if i should get the NFB12 ir the NfB11? Also will they be a step up from the vali/superpro? Thanks!


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## DecentLevi

(edited)


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## i019791

I suggest you pose your question at:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/631659/audio-gd-compass-2-amp-dac-impressions-thread


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## JereHakala

Just realized I've had my nfb-12 for 4 years now, still going strong


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## Pablo Albino

Hi Guys!
  
 Does anyone have any experience pairing the NFB-12 with the HE-6?


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## shane55

pablo albino said:


> Hi Guys!
> 
> Does anyone have any experience pairing the NFB-12 with the HE-6?


 
  
 A couple years ago I had a setup at a Head-fi gathering that included my NFB-12. A couple people came by with their HE-6's.
 (First, I have to say that I'm a little biased... the HE-6 is one of my favorite cans. If I could find a closed can with that sound, it would be mine... instantly!!)
  
 My feeling at the time was that the NFB-12 had more than enough power and head-room for the HE's. It seemed like a great combo. There was plenty of slam and reserve. And the sound was... well... wonderful.
  
 Hope that helped or was what you were looking for.
  
 Cheers


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## Pablo Albino

Shane,
Very thank you! I really appreciated your help. I'll give them a try.

Albino


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## Darien

looking to buy nfb-11 but i hear its kinda harsh and that the nfb-12 is neutral and detailed too but more smooth - but has the nfb-12 been discontinued?


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## Brooko

Look into the NFB-15.  It is the successor to the NFB-12


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## theringoffire

Hi all! Am very new to this board but hope this is the right place to post my question:
 My NFB-12 started to have random power drops a few days ago without any change in my setup.
  
 This happened the 2nd time in the years I own the NFB-12 (not sure, ~5 years). The 1st time (~2 years ago) I sent it back to Audio-gd and got it back with the notification that no error was detected. But it worked flawlessly afterward until now.
  
 A 2nd round-trip to Hong Kong is simply too expensive for my taste. A visual check did not show any obvious fault.
  
 So I wanted to ask if anyone else had a similar behavior on your equipment and/or maybe some advise?
  
 Greetings
 B.


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## StiltsNZ

Just received my NFB-12 from a fellow Head-Fier - although he listed it as an NFB-11... and you know what? I stumble into this thread and see that it may well have been serendipitous. I'm using DT880/600 ohm cans at work, and my little O2 just wasn't cutting it. 
  
 I am BTW planning to get my uncle's Sansui 555A recapped and pair that with either the O2 or the NFB-12. I need more power... 
  
 But after listening to the NFB-12 for a couple of hours, I don't feel in any rush to spend another $400 on getting the Sansui fixed. Pretty darn good for this price point, although it just isn't quite revealing enough with cymbals, and the low end isn't quite there...
  
 ...so the search continues, but less hurried than it was.


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## shane55

stiltsnz said:


> Just received my NFB-12 from a fellow Head-Fier - although he listed it as an NFB-11... and you know what? I stumble into this thread and see that it may well have been serendipitous. I'm using DT880/600 ohm cans at work, and my little O2 just wasn't cutting it.
> 
> I am BTW planning to get my uncle's Sansui 555A recapped and pair that with either the O2 or the NFB-12. I need more power...
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting you mention it... I always thought the NFB-12 and DT880/600 were a very good match. The warmth of the NFB worked well against the sterile over-brightness of the Beyer. (JMHO).
 Glad you find it at least acceptable for now...
 Cheers


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## anoxy

Hey guys, I'm having a bit of a problem here.
  
 I don't know if it's JRiver that's causing it, Windows, or my NFB-12. 
  
 I'm trying to play some 24-bit 96000 Hz files in JRiver MC, but whenever I go to play them, my speakers just output static. 
  
 I have all the supported formats checked in Windows settings, and the default format is set to 2 channel, 24 bit, 96000 Hz (Studio Quality)....should I set that to 192000 instead?
  

  
 I am connected through Optical cable to my PC. Hooked up to Emotiva Airmotiv 4.


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## i019791

Check whether you use a filter limited to 48 k in the nfb-12 dac.


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## anoxy

i019791 said:


> Check whether you use a filter limited to 48 k in the nfb-12 dac.




Ah, good call. I completely forgot about the limitations of each filter setting.


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## anoxy

Well, I changed the filter to something that supports 192kHz according to audio-gds website, but when i go to "test" it in Windows playback devices settings, it just outputs static still.

Are my speakers perhaps the cause?

 EDIT: I think I got it.


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## Mosauwer

Anyone has the experience it with Audeze EL8? please let me know. I am interested


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## cloud_171

Just wanted to post my experience with the warranty process with Audio-gd. Overall excellent experience and glad to find out they stand behind their 10 year warranty.
  
 My NFB-12 randomly started shutting off after 4 years of heavy use and would sometimes turn back on if I toggle the power switch. I contacted them, ran through some troubleshooting steps and ended up sending it in for repairs. Since it was outside of the first year, had to pay shipping both ways but the repairs are free, so quite reasonable. The root cause was bad transformer contact.


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## trilobites

I thought they would cover at least one way shipping if it was found to be a defect.


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