# SHOOTOUT! - Lisa III Std Vs. MiniBox-E+ (Pics Heavy)



## EFN

*Foreword*
 The acquisition of Lisa III was a fulfillment of years long dream to me. After reading Skylab review on the first commercial Lisa III unit almost two years ago, I was convinced that I must have one myself. Until today, Lisa III still stood strong at the No.1 spot on Skylab ranking list.

 And so three weeks ago I placed an order for a Lisa III Standard in all black trim. It took 5 days to reach Malaysia. To add to the thrill, I have to endure a standoff with Malaysian customs and took my brand new Lisa III home for a fee of $46.00. I paid $600 for mine which included international expedited shipping via USPS. Hats off to Brad Taylor and Matt Boyd, both from Triad Audio for the fast response and neat packaging (double boxes).

 This shootout will focus on Lisa III Std capabilities as a portable amp in the 18V class. And many of you already know that I already have a MiniBox-E+ (3rd Edition) and how much I raved about it in my other review thread. There will be extensive comparison between these two throughout this article. MiniBox E+ is also an 18V powered amp (lithium ion).

*What Comes in The Box:*
 -Lisa III Std
 -User Manual
 -2 Tenergy NiMH 250mAH Rechargeable 9Vs (already installed)
 -Lots of padding

*Build/Construction/Design:*
 The Lisa III uses Hammond 1455J1601 as the base enclosure. So you can expect solid build which is only rivaled by RSA custom machined boxes. The front and back plates have been replaced with two rather thick billet like pieces and engraved with Triad Audio insignias. My gripe is that they are rather sharp edged and this could spell disaster when moving them against smooth surfaces – they can scratch those surfaces easily. The build is quite solid and in fact I think they can be used as a weapon as well in case some nasty thief wants to try their luck on your rig.












 The Lisa III is driven by two rechargeable 9V batteries which were inlcuded with the Std. package. There is an option for a dedicated PSU which will double as a charger and regulated 24V power supply. The charging pattern for the Lisa III is quite straight forward - if it takes 8 hours for the two 9Vs to completely recharge, it will take another 8 hours for them to drain.






 It is very well known that Phil Larocco build stellar world class amps, his PPA (named after him) amps are stuff of legends and the Lisa III is a natural evolution of PPA in a much more compact package. You can read more on this at www.triadaudio.net.

 I am not very good at all this technical details, but it is a no brainer that the Lisa III utilizes multi buffered 3 channels design very unique to Phil Larocco handiwork. In fact the Lisa III amps purchased from www.triadaudio.net are personally designed and refined by Phil Larocco himself.

















*[size=small]Lisa III Sonic Characteristic & Listening Trials[/size]*

*Gears Used:*
 -Ultramodded ETYMOTIC ER-4S (96 oHm Full Silver recable)
 -Ultramodded KOSS KSC-75
 -Ultramodded YUIN PK1 (Full Silver recable)
 -iRiver H120 (Lineout & Optical Out)
 -HifiDIY.net PCM1793 Over Sampling DAC with OPA2134PA Preamp
 -DIY Pure Silver Mini-Mini
 -DIY Pure Silver Mini-RCAs
 -DIY Toslink patch cable
 -FLAC Q3 direct CD Rips
 -Sennheiser HD215 Closed Back Headphone

*Listening Materials:*
 Span from Jazz to Classical to Metal/Rock. But the following albums were rotated quite heavily specially the first three:

*Ultrasone Binaural Samplers*: Specially Track.01, Track.02 & Track.09 (Classical)

 Alison Krauss & Union Station - Lonely Goes Both Ways





 Diana Krall - The Very Best of Diana Krall





 Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds








 Pelican








 ISIS








 This section will reflect my findings and opinion on the Lisa III through private auditioning in the first two weeks. From time to time I will sneak in to give her a listen during burn in period. Listening trials were primarily done through my ER-4S and a highly modified KSC-75.

 Lisa III is not affected much by burn in cycle. My unit have already clocked around 170 hours and I can tell that the _sound have changed very little_ from the first time I switched her on. This is consistent with reports from other Lisa III users – they sounded good out of the box. There’s no erratic behavior that I have noticed so far.

 True indeed, like what have been mentioned so many times before all over the place, Lisa III is a stellar amp. The sound is very organic and analogue. Bass extend deeps and impactful – which can be controlled by the Bass Knob for achieving proper balance on cold sounding headphones, and can be turned off for those that are not lean sounding in the lower registers. Connected to my PCM1793 DAC, the bass offers a lot of texture. Attack was spot on and where decay is present in the recording, Lisa III will reveal them all – the bass packs superb details with accurate timbre. With the ER-4S, I am getting strong dynamic pressure that help to attain impactful reverb which is almost nonexistent on an un-amped setup, makes the listening experience much akin to dynamic earbuds. Simply put, the bass is extremely infectious and engaging.

 As expected, highs are articulately controlled with no sign of exaggeration. There’s a lot of detail in the notes and yet they remained lush and smooth – not hard edged at all. Extension will go as high as the headphone is capable of, which in ER-4S case, it is really high. Yet they will not wear you down with fatigue because they are devoid of metallic hardness. Treble decays are very realistic and do not extend unnaturally. This amp is highly capable of refining the wild highs of KSC-75 which many find to be slightly bright than it should be. Classical and Jazz junkies will love how Lisa III portrayed the tympanis and snares – they sounded very succinct and solid with no unnatural splashes. On much aggressive sounding tracks (rock/metal/indie), the cymbal does not overpower the sound spectrum.

 The mids are very transparent and neutral sounding. They are quite faithful to the recordings and one can expect to hear a lot of details here as well. Timbre accuracy is very high and this helps imaging a lot. There’s no unnatural hump that I can complain of. Perhaps there’s a hint of warmth in some recordings, but I’d say that they are quite welcomed as they do not intercede or mask the intended sound. Guitars, Violin, Banjo Piano, Organ, and Flutes etc all sounded very realistic. I especially like how Alison Krauss and Diana Krall are portrayed through this amp – their vocals bear strong authority and smoothness at the same time. It is a combination of lushness and articulation that makes them really infectious. As a big fan of Nick Cave, I was mesmerized by how chesty and deep his vocal goes, allowing the listener to feel his emotion and rage – living the songs instead of listening to it.

 Soundstage is quite moderate actually since I am using IEM almost exclusively. It is neither huge nor compressed. Notes separation is very well defined with distinct lines and generous spacing in between. This in turn helps to achieve focus and I find it easy to follow a passage no matter how complex to tunes go. Using and IEM and a supra aural, I find it difficult to gauge headstage depth, width and height. How I wish I have a proper circumaural headphone with me.

 Expectedly, Lisa III has excellent control over sibilance and I have yet to hear any nasty SSSS from the vocals in my collection. This is a very important ability for those using bright sounding headphones.

 There are no weaknesses that I can think of when listening to this amp. Everything was so well defined in all areas – most importantly the Lisa III does not exaggerate any particular attributes and this makes her a highly neutral and balanced amp. Despite being highly analytical with the micro details, Lisa III is still very musical and I trust that tube junkies will find this amp very appealing as well. For an 18V powered device, I don’t think many that can actually compete with the Lisa III for the top crown.


*[size=large]The Shootout![/size]*

 Ok here’s the interesting part. As stellar as the Lisa III sounds, *I was not WOWed unfortunately*. Why you ask?......MiniBox-E+ is the answer. The MiniBox-E+ have actually stolen the thunder away from Lisa III as I was already WOWed by the MiniBox-E+ with some brain melting sonic performance a month earlier prior to receiving my unit. In fact I was disappointed that the Lisa III wasn’t able to trounce the MiniBox there and then. They actually sounded almost identical!

 So how identical they can be? For the last two weeks I was undergoing some very-very tough times comparing these two and until this very day I can’t decide which one I liked the most. Sonically the MiniBox-E+ with the stock AD8610 configuration was able to stand eye to eye with the Lisa III – in all areas. The only thing that the MiniBox-E+ lacked was the adjustable bass contour which worked like a charm on the Lisa III. But then the MiniBox-E+ does have a bass boost function of its own and this is very similar to the Lisa III bass adjustment when the knob was set at 12 o’clock.

 Eventually through rigorous auditioning, I was able to identify subtle differences between these two. Lisa III seems to have a slightly prominent treble edges where the MiniBox-E+ was slightly whispery and not as prominent. But both do have similar quality. Lisa III also seems to exhibit very slightly stronger dynamic – almost intangible and only when compared directly one will audibly notice that the MiniBox-E+ will have softer approach – just by a hair!

 Since the MiniBox-E+ supports dual mono opamp rolling, I decided to do some experimentation to see if I can “adjust” the sound signature to make them a bit more unique sounding. And so I went over to a local HiFi DIY supply shop (Octave PJ) and asked for AD797AN which was recommended by mrarroyo earlier on. I got a pair of AD797AN and plugged them in immediately. But this turned out to be a disaster as the later version of MiniBox-E+ does not seem to work properly with AD797AN. There’s some very nasty screeching sound when the volume wheel moved. I plugged them out and headed back to the Hifi shop intent on swapping the AD797 with another pair of mono opamps that will work with the MiniBox-E+. This time I had a long chat with the shop owner which happens to be a high end SACD/tube junkie himself. I told him that I seek to add a bit of dynamic punch to my MiniBox-E+ to match the Lisa III, but it must not be too aggressive and less analytical. And so he recommended me to try the AD8065AR which was quite new to me. 

 I got myself a pair of SMD mounted AD8065AR on an 8 DIP adapter and went straight away listening to it. *WHOA!* There’s some serious punch now. Gone are the whispery decays. The edges are a bit more prominent now and they are actually good enough to rival the Lisa III distinctive sound. The AD8065AR is such a potent opamp that I find myself turning off the bass boost function which was previously always active when using AD8610AN. There’s a subtle sense of heightened articulation in the notes everywhere now which makes AD8610 sounded somewhat “loose”. Bass and mids texture are a bit more pronounced giving the impression of a highly detailed sound. Notes separation was also audibly improved. Despite all this, the sound remained smooth and non fatiguing. This can’t be true I mused.

 Yet I wasn’t satisfied with the findings and decided to explore more. I contacted *dfkt* and asked him about performing RMAA tests. Thanks to him, I was able to set up a test rig.











*And here’s the results:*

 Lisa III Std - No Bass Boost:





 MiniBox-E+ (AD8065AR) - No Bass Boost:





 MiniBox-E+ (Stock AD8610AN) - No Bass Boost:





 Lisa III Std - *BASS* Boost





 MiniBox-E+ (AD8065AR) - *BASS* Boost





 MiniBox-E+ (Stock AD8610AN) - *BASS* Boost





 As can be seen above, the Lisa III and MiniBox-E+ (8065AR) were almost identical. I am no expert to reading Frequency response graph but any average joe will not fail to register the similarities. So I wasn’t imagining this at all. Both were indeed identical sounding.


*[size=large]Blind Tests[/size]*

 Taking this further, I decided to set up a mini meet with some friends. Three showed up and one of them brought a Sennheiser HD215 which has been burned in for 250 hours. Despite not being a relatively popular headphone, I find the HD215 a sweet sounding cans. And since it is a closed back circumaural, it can be used as a good monitoring tool for auditioning. 

 Fast forward, we decided to do blind tests on those two amps. One person will operate the rig and the tester will be sitting towards the opposite direction. Bass Boost function was turned off on both amps.











*Session 1: Myself as Tester1*
 Amp1: Lisa III
 Amp2: MiniBox-E+ (AD8065AR)
 Song: Alison Krauss – “If I Didn't Know Any Better” FLAC Q3 CD Rip
*Verdict:* I guessed wrongly! I thought Amp1 was the MiniBox-E+ which is actually the Lisa III. This further confirmed my opinion that they indeed do sound identical

*Session 2: Tester2*
 Amp1: MiniBox-E+ (AD8065AR)
 Amp2: Lisa III
 Song: Ultrasone Binaural Sampler Track.1 (Jazz Instrumental)
*Verdict:* Tester2 immediately state his preference to Amp1 (MiniBox-E+). He said that Amp1 offers slightly stronger and prominent dynamic while everything else is identical sounding

*Session 3: Tester3*
 Amp1: MiniBox-E+ (AD8065AR)
 Amp2: Lisa III
 Song: Ultrasone Binaural Sampler Track.1 (Jazz Instrumental)
*Verdict:* Tester3 revealed that he prefer Amp2 (Lisa III) which he said seems to have slightly better distance between instruments.

*Session 4: Tester4*
 Amp1: Lisa III
 Amp2: MiniBox-E+ (AD8065AR)
 Song: Ultrasone Binaural Sampler Track.1 (Jazz Instrumental)
*Verdict:* Tester4 quickly shouted out that he liked Amp2 (MiniBox-E+). He said that subtly the timbre imaging was more distinctive compared to Amp1 (Lisa III). He also noted that the Amp2 have very slight edge on dynamic pressure which is consistent with Tester2 findings.

*Session 5: Tester4*
 Amp1: Lisa III
 Amp2: MiniBox-E+ (AD8065AR)
 Song: HURT – “Shallow” (Rock)
*Verdict:* Tester4 requested a second session with much more aggressive song. I have a few in my iRiver DAP and picked up “Shallow” from HURT’s Vol.1 album. This time Tester4 choose Amp1 (Lisa III) over Amp2 because the sound is not as aggressive sounding with all the high pitched guitar riff and growling vocals.

 The listening trial further confirms that these two amps are indeed similar sounding that we actually have to close our eyes and scrutinize really deep to acknowledge the differences. Collectively we agreed that both amps are truly excellent and trying to find faults in them is like attempting to find a needle in a haystack. They both handle Jazz, Classical, Instrumental, Folk, Stringed, Percussion genres really well. But it is agreeable that the slight edge on Lisa III relaxed nature will fare better on harsher recordings. The MiniBox-E+ with the AD8065AR in contrast will no longer be as forgiving on funky sounding records.

 On the other hand, the MiniBox-E+ offers almost boundless possibilites with opamp rolling. I already placed orders for a few more mono opamps to test.

 Bottomline, I consider myself very lucky to have two Imperial class amps - more than enough to keep an Audiophile happy. The funny thing is, despite being sonically identical, the Lisa III is a highly celebrated amp and the MiniBox-E+ a highly underrated sleeper. And on a side note, both of these amps are well ahead of the two Xin amps that I have owned previously. Now I awaits Dr. Xin latest offering (if he ever finalizes them) in the form of Xin Reference Type D 12V. In the mean while, I may consider getting yet another adversely under-appreciated sleeper - the DecWare Zen Head.

 Hope you enjoyed reading....and THANK You!


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## trickywombat

EFN:

 Thank you so much for all the effort you put into the review/comparison. It was a very interesting and informative read.

 I've been thinking about the Lisa III myself, but am thinking of using it for full-sized headphones so am thinking about the Lisa vs desktop amps. Your review gave me a good glimpse into what I can expect form the Lisa III.

 I think the Zen Head will surprise you. The soundstage is quite unlike any portable amp I've heard. I look forward to your review of the Zen Head.


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## slwiser

This is another excellent presentation of an amp comparison. Great work for our community..Thanks


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## analogbox

Wow. Great review. That graph really blows any doubts away.


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## imademymark

i was just wondering if the choice of headphones made for the results? the KSC-75 (however modded) seems unlikely to be able to capture the differences that well, plug in hd650 and the difference should become more obvious

 that said, i havent enjoyed reading a review like that in awhile. nice work


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## GreatDane

Thanks EFN for spending your time on this review. I was on the edge of my seat! Now I want a MiniBox-E+ even more...guess I won't be snatching yours though, I'm on my own here.lol


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## jamato8

Double Wow. What a review and great investigative work!


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## FrederikS|TPU

Nice work EFN! Considering the price of the MiniBox it is a real bargain.


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## Kees

Very well done!. Thanks.


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## vkvedam

This is the sort of work I like. Quite appreciated for all the efforts you have put in to this. And by the way, the plot presentation is incredible for people like me. Thanks once again.


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## qusp

nice work EFN; although I agree that you could have chosen more appropriate headphones to show the differences of these 2 amps. none of them are in any way hard to drive; I expect the lisa III to have the edge with HD600 or similar fullsize headphone. also the imaging and soundstage of lisa wasnt given the opportunity to show-off 'moderate soundstage' LOL maybe with ER4. these 2 things are well known as being strengths of the lisa III and they were ruled out of your test. I have not heard the minibox E so I wont comment; I do belive that it is a fantastic amp; too many people I respect have agreed. perhaps you are correct; but what differences there are werent given much of a chance. these are also differences that will not show up on your graphs. either way it was very thorough with what equipment you had on hand well done


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## qusp

OH and put some small rubber feet on the lisa to avoid the scratches


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## lyricalmoments

Nice review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been listening to my Lisa III on my Westone 3 IEMs and frankly, the hiss doesn't really bothers me when the music comes on. Probably looking those impedence adaptor soon.

 How much did u pay for the Minibox E+ ?


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## tstarn06

Wow, nice work. And now I feel even better owning the MiniboxE+ (which I have owned since 2007). I wasn't using it much, cause I didn't want to lug it around with my DAPs. But now that I am doing more listening at home, I feel pretty lucky.

 ... Fang (at Head-Direct), be prepared for an onslaught of new MB buyers.


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## rabor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tstarn06* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 ... Fang (at Head-Direct), be prepared for an onslaught of new MB buyers._

 

Yup.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ..it got me to the point of trying to order one NOW..,

 but since Head-Direct has no stock & Babelfish/WorldLingo can't translate the important parts of headphile.co.kr - like register, I was wondering if anyone knows where else I could get meself one of these little babies.

 & Ofcoarse, nice read, great test..!


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## EFN

Thanks guys. I was afraid that the long writeup will bore you down LOL!

*imademymark & qusp:*
 It was a concious decision not to use "higher-end" headphones like the HD600 or AKG K701 during the review. I could have easily borrowed them from local Head-Fiers if I want to. Using less stellar sounding KSC-75 makes it less difficult to gauge the amp performance - then if indeed the KSC-75 ended up sounding hi-fi, then it must be the amp and source and not the innate refinement already built into the headphones.

 On the other hand, the ER-4S is notoriously heavy to drive and the uber resolving capabilities will help a lot in digging out every single dirt if they exist in the amp+source

 Lastly, for portable class amplifiers, I am not convinced yet that they can really drive high end headphones to their 100% capabilities like what a fully dedicated home amp can do. So sizing is crucial to get the best results. Let the portables drive portables and let the big amps drive the bigger cans.


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## Remitrom

Hmm. Sounds like there is a weak link . Your system is only as good as the weakest link will allow. Lisa Lovers dont scrimp.


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## tstarn06

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rabor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ..it got me to the point of trying to order one NOW..,

 but since Head-Direct has no stock & Babelfish/WorldLingo can't translate the important parts of headphile.co.kr - like register, I was wondering if anyone knows where else I could get meself one of these little babies.

 & Ofcoarse, nice read, great test..!_

 

Long story short, but when I had to get my MB replaced (thanks Fang), he wrote me an email indicating that there is a sole builder of the MB in China, and the dude had to work longer hours at his real job, something along those lines. So as a result, Fang is having a hard time keeping them in stock, as the guy just can't build as many as he used to. Too bad, really. I may have mangled that info a but, but it's the gist of what Fang told me.


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## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tstarn06* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Long story short, but when I had to get my MB replaced (thanks Fang), he wrote me an email indicating that there is a sole builder of the MB in China, and the dude had to work longer hours at his real job, something along those lines. So as a result, Fang is having a hard time keeping them in stock, as the guy just can't build as many as he used to. Too bad, really. I may have mangled that info a but, but it's the gist of what Fang told me._

 

Yes it's a pity that the MB builder have to juggle daytime work and build amps after in the night. I am thinking of contacting Fang to get the MB builder contact details. I think he deserve to know how good his amps are and with further feedbacks, I believe he can implement further changes which could potentially improve things for the better.

 Right now I'd be happy if I can just know his name.


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## ed lynch

Thanks EFN great review, if that mb builder went into this full time he could probably give up the day job and concentrate on his talent full time, probably making even better amps, and also make a decent salary at the same time, ed.


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## rabor

Received this an hour ago:

_Dear Rabor,

 We will have minibox-e+ in 2 to 3 weeks. 

 Best,
 Head-Direct Corporation_

 I guess there will be a waiting list aswell..


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## lyricalmoments

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rabor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Received this an hour ago:

Dear Rabor,

 We will have minibox-e+ in 2 to 3 weeks. 

 Best,
 Head-Direct Corporation

 I guess there will be a waiting list aswell.._

 






 I would love to hear one to try it out


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## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.........snip
 I could have easily borrowed them from local Head-Fiers if I want to. Using less stellar sounding KSC-75 makes it less difficult to gauge the amp performance - then if indeed the KSC-75 ended up sounding hi-fi, then it must be the amp and source and not the innate refinement already built into the headphones./snip_

 

ummm that only half makes sense. i realize you could get better headphones if you wanted to. thats why I found it a little confusing. neither of the cans you used are capable of decent soundstage (a strength of the lisa III (maybe MB E as well I dunno) bass slam and bass texture are also missing to a degree.

  Quote:


 On the other hand, the ER-4S is notoriously heavy to drive and the uber resolving capabilities will help a lot in digging out every single dirt if they exist in the amp+source 
 

I realize that, but they also do that at the expense of other missing elements like those mentioned above

  Quote:


 Lastly, for portable class amplifiers, I am not convinced yet that they can really drive high end headphones to their 100% capabilities like what a fully dedicated home amp can do. So sizing is crucial to get the best results. Let the portables drive portables and let the big amps drive the bigger cans. 
 

hmmm that really doesnt mean much, as you would be using the same headphones with both amps; so even if the amp doesnt drive them to 100% potential like home amps (I agree they dont and neither should they be expected to and also many home amps dont either) but how close they get to achieving that yardstick is a good indication of the amps power; as well as all the other things I have mentioned above. especially when the lisa is noted as being a portable amp that gets as close as possible to getting '100%' performance (whatever that is) out of harder to drive headphones. to me; to not test this is to ignore a major drawcard of the amp/s also going out shopping for op-amps for the test, while is not a foul ball because that is a capability of the MB E is a touch of favoritism. hehe you can tell i'm a lisa owner LOL. just seems to me like you set the playing field a bit for your baby

 as brad said a combination is only as strong as its weakest link and possibly the reason they perform so similarly with the cans you used is because you have reached the upper limits of those cans... with both amps. anyhow man i'll leave it there, because it is still a good review, it really is, just not really designed to show off the real strengths/weakness of the amps given their potential to perform in more than these arenas


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## wuwhere

Excellent comparison.


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## paulybatz

Well being a methodologist, there are several questions we have to raise. First it is a great start. However, we have to consider the experiment being conducted. Did you have a large enough sample of reviewers. I too agree about the phones, we can look at the graphs all day long but it does come down to volume levels and the ability of the amp to drive the phones too.

 For example to get the same volume out of my D3 it has to be turned up to noon, Lisa is at 9 o'clock. For IEMs and low level phones the difference may be unrecognizeable but for full size phones I think there would be a notable difference for sure.


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## EFN

*qusp & paulybatz:*
 I understand your concerns. But lets see this from another angle. BOTH amps were tested using the same cans and regardles what the tested headphones can and cannot do (limitations/weaknesses) will also be applied to the other amp yes? This is all about what the amps can do with what limitation that is in place.

 The point is, with what is available from a random choice of headphones, the MiniBox-E+ and Lisa III will either drive them to the limit applicable to that headphones or hit the limit innate to the amps itself.

 I know this will be hard to swallow for Lisa III hardcore loyalists that a unassuming cheap looking amp like the MiniBox-E+ can stand neck to neck to her in sonic capabilities. I personally do hope that the Lisa III can prove her superiority but it cannot be discarded that there's a possibility another amp from another make can scale up the ladder to perform as good as her - or even better.

 The blind tests were a good method because we were able to judge without having our emotion and biasedness intercede with the facts. For the record, Tester2 and Tester4 are both PPL fans and owned a variant of PPAs in one way or another. Tester4 is a hardcore Car Hi-Fi junkie (you guys should see his car setup) and extremely well versed with high end sound. The blind tests allowed them to pass judgement without prejudice. In fact the reason that Tester4 asked for the 5th session is because he was surprised that his first session he preffered the sound of MiniBox-E+ when we revealed it to him.

 As I meantioned earlier, I consider myself very lucky to have both amps in hand and let the amps speak for themselves.


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## Kees

What the test says is that for KSC75 the LisaIII is overkill. The Minibox E+ does equally well.


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## mrarroyo

EFN I loved the review, mostly because I love to see an inexpensive and small amp like the MiniBox-E+ do so well. I am so glad you took a chance w/ it because frankly it is a killer amp.

 Best of luck.


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## musicmaker

EFN, thanks for taking the time to do this review. It was an enjoyable read. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What the test says is that for KSC75 the LisaIII is overkill. The Minibox E+ does equally well._

 

Well said Kees. 

 I would like to try a miniBox-E+ someday with the recabled HFI-780 and Sennheisers someday


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## imademymark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What the test says is that for KSC75 the LisaIII is overkill. The Minibox E+ does equally well._

 

yes that's exactly the point we're making i think.

 if you search the forums you will find a picture of someone trying the B52s with the ibuds at jaben (mostly in jest of course). i was there and tried it too! it sounded, for abit like the yuins in terms of extension and tuning but for the most part, slightly weird.


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## imademymark

in fact i actually think the ibuds would sound nicer overall unamped.

 now obviously i'm not suggesting the KSC 75 is even remotely close to the ibuds, nor that either amp is anything like the B52, but i'm just putting it out there that without using the equipment that reveals the differences, its a stretch to say that both amps are similiar in their capabilities.

 although i do not doubt the MiniBox E+ is a stellar amp, i get the feeling the results would be very different if an rs-1/ hd600 was used.


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## imademymark

-edit. i just googled the thread again, and the picture on the headfi one isnt me haha, but yea i was there.


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## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *imademymark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in fact i actually think the ibuds would sound nicer overall unamped.

 now obviously i'm not suggesting the KSC 75 is even remotely close to the ibuds, nor that either amp is anything like the B52, but i'm just putting it out there that without using the equipment that reveals the differences, its a stretch to say that both amps are similiar in their capabilities.

 although i do not doubt the MiniBox E+ is a stellar amp, i get the feeling the results would be very different if an rs-1/ hd600 was used. _

 

It seems that this discussion have shifted too much towards KSC-75. Bear in mind that for the 2 weeks auditioning sessions that 90% of the time the ER-4S was used. The KSC-75 was just a backup cans for easy listening.

 And ER-4S is very brutal at revealing differences. Any changes in the notes and nuances can be audibly heard. The only thing that the ER-4S can't really measure was the depth, width and height of soundstage. Any improvement on the texture will not fail to be registered with the ER-4S. Of all the cans that I have ever tried, certainly the ER-4S is the one of most responsive listening device to different type of source and amplification. They will sound like crap if plugged to crappy source and similarly they will sound stellar if plugged to a superb rig.

 And please take note that the tests did not cover for any soundtaging capabilities.

 It's is okay to rely on feeling but trust me listening is believeing.


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## imademymark

many appologies. i didnt mean any malice and i did say (and still think) this is hell 'uv a good comparison by any stretch


----------



## Headphile808

Another Stellar Review EFN, "The Legend Of The Humble Little Sleeper" Continues...Impressive.
 Aloha
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Headphile808


----------



## Ricey20

Great review EFN. Been contacting ttvj to see when they will get any in.


----------



## lyricalmoments

How do you find the overall build of the Minibox as compared to the Lisa III?


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*qusp & paulybatz:*
 I understand your concerns. But lets see this from another angle. BOTH amps were tested using the same cans and regardles what the tested headphones can and cannot do (limitations/weaknesses) will also be applied to the other amp yes? This is all about what the amps can do with what limitation that is in place._

 

I dont know if you do; you didnt state that as an intention and... why do that?? anyone that is going to buy a lisa III is generally going to be driving (and dont take this the wrong way) at least one much more stellar headphone than any you tested. like has been said; all it proves is that the abilities of the ER4S and KSC75 were taken to the limit with both amps, but there is sooo much more out there. certain parameters that I consider very important in choosing an amp and headphones are missing altogether in this test. the lisa III wasnt designed with these headphones in mind; otherwise it would be smaller and have less power in reserve. its a no compromise portable amp for no compromise headphones; IMO (and seemingly yours too) it also does a very good job with IEM's, but that is not where the story ends.

  Quote:


 The point is, with what is available from a random choice of headphones, the MiniBox-E+ and Lisa III will either drive them to the limit applicable to that headphones or hit the limit innate to the amps itself. 
 

 well you answered that; but in effect, all you ended up doing was reviewing the limits of the headphones used; rather than the abilities of the amps.

  Quote:


 I know this will be hard to swallow for Lisa III hardcore loyalists that a unassuming cheap looking amp like the MiniBox-E+ can stand neck to neck to her in sonic capabilities. I personally do hope that the Lisa III can prove her superiority but it cannot be discarded that there's a possibility another amp from another make can scale up the ladder to perform as good as her - or even better. 
 

yes I guess it would; but IMO that has not happened in the slightest with this comparison. I'm all ears for when that actually happens. Again I dont deny or discount that the MB E sounds great, but I think more challenging tests are needed to differentiate the 2; as clearly the test is below their abilities and therefor does not tell us the full story. I am open to you having a different opinion to me; after-all thats what this place is all about, but an informed opinion is better.

  Quote:


 The blind tests were a good method because we were able to judge without having our emotion and biasedness intercede with the facts. For the record, Tester2 and Tester4 are both PPL fans and owned a variant of PPAs in one way or another. Tester4 is a hardcore Car Hi-Fi junkie (you guys should see his car setup) and extremely well versed with high end sound. The blind tests allowed them to pass judgement without prejudice. In fact the reason that Tester4 asked for the 5th session is because he was surprised that his first session he preffered the sound of MiniBox-E+ when we revealed it to him. 
 

again; the methodology was good; except for this one fairly significant thing. its like judging a 5 star chef on how well he cooks a hamburger. now I actually own a modded KSC75 and thats about where I would put it on the scale of things. reasonably priced, fun, great tasting, taste varies with the extras added, but not terribly refined or classy in flavour. the ety's are different ; more like sushi, very refined and lean, but somewhat lacking in substance IMO
  Quote:


 As I meantioned earlier, I consider myself very lucky to have both amps in hand and let the amps speak for themselves. 
 

no you didnt; hehe thats the point; the lisa was gagged (and maybe the MB E too)


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lyricalmoments* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do you find the overall build of the Minibox as compared to the Lisa III? _

 

The build quality of MiniBox-E+ is acceptable at best. The shell are made of metal but the front and back plates are of the same material used for the board. Unless you plan to smash them on the wall I think they will survive normal daily use. The Lisa III of course is like a tank with that Hammond shell and thick billet plates.


----------



## GTL

To end all the debate why don't EFN just compare the LISA and the Minibox with a headphone like the HD650 or K701?


----------



## mrarroyo

I have had the pleasure of owning the MiniBox and now the MiniBox-E+, both of which I have compared w/ amps that have very good reputation and many followers here and in other forums. IMO, the MiniBox-E+ is one of the top amps available at a fraction of the cost of most portable amps. In my case w/ the AD797 replacing the AD8610 the presentation was darker and deeper something I really enjoyed.

 Once I have chosen among the various Xin Reference boards I have for comparison I will compare this two and see which is IMO the better sounding and why.

 As far as comparing the MiniBox-E+ w/ a home type of can it is indeed doable. Yet I wonder how many will use it in such a manner. I can say I have done such a comparison using cans by Ultrasone, Denon, and others. My opinion of the MiniBox-E+ has not changed.

 I understand the resistance due to the low price but if you had an opportunity to listen to the unit you would know how good it is. Not to derail the thread but another great example of a portable amp at a low price is the iBasso T4.


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GTL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To end all the debate why don't EFN just compare the LISA and the Minibox with a headphone like the HD650 or K701?_

 

I agree with your suggestion. But seriously to what end? if the results favor MiniBox-E+ and not the Lisa III will we then have another debate and say that the HD650 and K701 is dumb as well?

 I am still waiting for my buddy to lend me his HD600 which will be a good candidate because HD600 is a lot heavier to drive than K701 and HD650.

 The blind tests were *not* done using KSC-75 but a full sized HD215 which is a very decent headphone.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with your suggestion. But seriously to what end? if the results favor MiniBox-E+ and not the Lisa III will we then have another debate and say that the HD650 and K701 is dumb as well?

 I am still waiting for my buddy to lend me his HD600 which will be a good candidate because HD600 is a lot heavier to drive than K701 and HD650.

 The blind tests were *not* done using KSC-75 but a full sized HD215 which is a very decent headphone._

 

The HD600 are easier to drive than the HD650 or K701 IMO.


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The HD600 are easier to drive than the HD650 or K701 IMO._

 

That may be true. But I sold of my HD600 a year ago because I can't find an amp that can make that thing sing.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That may be true. But I sold of my HD600 a year ago because I can't find an amp that can make that thing sing._

 

Earmax Pro. Top combination.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with your suggestion. But seriously to what end? if the results favor MiniBox-E+ and not the Lisa III will we then have another debate and say that the HD650 and K701 is dumb as well?

 I am still waiting for my buddy to lend me his HD600 which will be a good candidate because HD600 is a lot heavier to drive than K701 and HD650.

 The blind tests were *not* done using KSC-75 but a full sized HD215 which is a very decent headphone._

 

incorrect; at least for me; if you test with a serious headphone that is capable of testing the full range of abilities and still think its that close, I would be happy with that and not take it any further. I am satisfied that the rest of your rig, cables etc is up to the job. so then it would just be your opinion and I respect that.

 if you still think its that close: I might just have to try and buy one to see what the fuss is about. there are already people going around the forums saying some people prefer the MBE to lisa III LOL how funny. I dont think you have even said that yet. Even though it does seem that you want the underdog to win (new op-amps etc); the fact that you went out and bought the lisa III for $$$ is probably enough to make you want to like her too. in the end all that really matters to me is how lisa sounds to me anyway.


----------



## Ricey20

well, his Lisa III is up in the FS forum


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ricey20* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, his Lisa III is up in the FS forum 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL all without actually using with proper headphones hehe oh well; I guess he shouldnt have to buy new headphones to enjoy an amp. I too wouldnt really be using lisa if I only wanted to drive ER4 and KSC75


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL all without actually using with proper headphones hehe oh well; I guess he shouldnt have to buy new headphones to enjoy an amp. I too wouldnt really be using lisa if I only wanted to drive ER4 and KSC75_

 

Why are you being so hard on EFN and others liking the MiniBox-E+? It is a very nice unit which IMO puts to shame other much more expensive amps. BTW, I have used the MiniBox-E+ w/ full size cans like Ultrasone PROline 2500, HFI-780, Denon AH-D5000, Grado RS-1, etc.

 Also, who do you think you are you to determine what is a "proper headphone". To EFN what he has is proper, and to you something else may be proper. However you should not try to use your biases and opinions as the yardstick by which others are measure. You nor anyone else is the authority in things as subjective as audio. We all have an opinion which by definition is as valild as yours or mine.

 I have not listened to the Lisa, but I have extensively listened/owned well over 50 portable and transportable amps. The MiniBox-E+ is on top tier of that list. Perhaps you should borrow or buy one to test. EFN went the extra mile in purchasing a Lisa to test it w/ his gear the way he plans on using a portable amp. Why don't you join him by purchasing the MiniBox-E+ and testing it the way you would use a portable amp. Who knows, it might surprise you.


----------



## GTL

Sorry this is a little out of topic but can anyone enlighten me o whats the difference between the minibox e and the minibox e+? Also I see the minibox e+ up for sale in some china auction site though I am not sure about its credibility. Its much cheaper though. Here's the link.

ÃÔÄãµç³Ø°æ¶ú·ÅMiniBox-E+£¨ï®µç°æ£©-¼ÒÓÃµçÆ÷/hifiÒôÏì/¶ú»ú - ÌÔ±¦Íø


----------



## musicmaker

Alright guys, I can't take this anymore. I've decided to get a MiniBox-E+ to compare with my Lisa. I'll use the HFI-780 APS recabled, HD-600, HD25-1 II and KSC-75 to test. I also have the SR-71 (the original one not the A) arriving tomorrow to compare. I'll sleep on the couch for a few days (wife hates my spending habits), but had to listen to these amps. I'll post my findings with these headphones in a separate thread.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why are you being so hard on EFN and others liking the MiniBox-E+? It is a very nice unit which IMO puts to shame other much more expensive amps. BTW, I have used the MiniBox-E+ w/ full size cans like Ultrasone PROline 2500, HFI-780, Denon AH-D5000, Grado RS-1, etc.

 Also, who do you think you are you to determine what is a "proper headphone". To EFN what he has is proper, and to you something else may be proper. However you should not try to use your biases and opinions as the yardstick by which others are measure. You nor anyone else is the authority in things as subjective as audio. We all have an opinion which by definition is as valild as yours or mine.

 I have not listened to the Lisa, but I have extensively listened/owned well over 50 portable and transportable amps. The MiniBox-E+ is on top tier of that list. Perhaps you should borrow or buy one to test. EFN went the extra mile in purchasing a Lisa to test it w/ his gear the way he plans on using a portable amp. Why don't you join him by purchasing the MiniBox-E+ and testing it the way you would use a portable amp. Who knows, it might surprise you._

 

I agree; proper was not the right word; was a quick post and possibly a little harsh; (sorry EFN) just got taken by surprise that the lisa was up for sale before it had even been given a chance to show off its strengths. by 'proper' I mean a pair of headphones that exhibits all of the elements that are needed to differentiate 2 quality amps, that are apparently closely matched when using the headphones he is using. I think you would agree that ER4 are by no means imaging, soundstage or bass monsters (all major strengths of the lisaIII); like nearly all IEM's. and the HD215 is good, but far from excellent, and it appears that excellent is what is needed to differentiate the 2 amps to EFN's ears; I just dont buy the MBE being better; like most portable amps its basically a CMOY on steroids as I said before in a previous post, I might just pick one up (and some nice op-amps) when they become available again to see what he is talking about. I dont doubt that it is a very good amp; as I said, but I dont believe that given high quality reference headphone (whether it be hard to drive or not) that the MBE would better or even equal the lisa III. But again as I said; EFN is free to like or not like what he wants, and perhaps the lisa isnt suited to his needs, but as far as a head to head is concerned; this test was flawed and not at all set up to allow the lisa to show her strengths. who knows; perhaps the MBE would have still won out in EFN's opinion, but we will never know because the comparison did not cover those parameters, forget about raw power; which is a no brainer the lisa would have won. i'm talking pRat, bass texture and depth, soundstage, imaging and that beautiful ever so slightly euphonic touch the lisa is famous for, that somehow manages to leave the rest of the detail intact. i think even lisa is not enough to make ER4 sound beautiful and live the way it does with my headphones; ER4 are fantastically detailed and accurate IEM's, but a little 2 dimensional IMO a little cold and lifeless, perhaps they need the tubey and warm SQ to make them really shine and while the lisa III is very organic in feel, perhaps its not enough to to the job. I would guess that the op-amp he ended up using had some of these qualities. I can only surmise and really it doesnt matter what I think; all that matters is that the lisa III wasnt flavoured the way EFN likes and thats what life's all about. its what makes this place interesting (and a little confusing sometimes)

 I wish you well in your search EFN; use the money from the lisa III sale to buy yourself some more stellar fullsize HP


----------



## .coco

nice review, good read


----------



## djlemon

+1 for a great review.

 I have been lurking around this forum before deciding to register and hopefully be able to contribute to the forums like alot of head-fiers over here.

 Now i think i'm rather set on getting the MBE+ for my portable setup. I'm currently using a Hornet + Sleek wireless. Will be getting a pair of used W3 and found the bass to be overpowering with the Hornet.

 Hope this little amp would bring magic to the W3s!


----------



## EFN

*GTL:*
 The one you saw at the Chinese website is a 2nd edition MiniBox-E (the first MiniBox-E+). Head Direct & TTVJ should have the 3rd gen like mine in a couple of weeks.

*musicmaker:*
 Cogratulations on the purchase. Have you asked the seller which version you will be receiving? The MB have three editions and the latest one uses the push button like mine. mrarroyo uses the 2nd gen which have SFOR function and the 3rd gen like mine is simpler in design (No SFOR). The 2nd gen can accept AD797 but not the 3rd gen.

*.coco:*
 Thanks. It was a pleasure listening to two world class amps.

*djlemon:*
 Welcome to Head-Fi! sorry bout your wallet


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alright guys, I can't take this anymore. I've decided to get a MiniBox-E+ to compare with my Lisa. I'll use the HFI-780 APS recabled, HD-600, HD25-1 II and KSC-75 to test. I also have the SR-71 (the original one not the A) arriving tomorrow to compare. I'll sleep on the couch for a few days (wife hates my spending habits), but had to listen to these amps. I'll post my findings with these headphones in a separate thread._

 

now *THATS *what i'm talking about!!!


----------



## dazzer1975

are there any sonic differences between the different minibox e incarnations?


----------



## GTL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dazzer1975* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_are there any sonic differences between the different minibox e incarnations?_

 

Yeah I would like to know too. Especially between the unit on the chinese website and the unit EFN has. Or is the difference just the switches? The picture on the chinese website says minibox e and not minibox e+ so what is it? A first gen minibox e+???


----------



## EFN

The very first MiniBox-E is a 9V amp. The ones after that was named MiniBox-E+ and that thus the major change was the move to 18V power scheme. Both MiniBox-E and MiniBox-E+ looked exactly the same. The 3rd gen which I am using now is drastically different from the look. But from what I have discussed with mrarroyo, 2nd and 3rd gen seems to bear strong similarities sonically. mrarroyo have had the chance to listen to both the 1st gen and 2nd gen and I recall he said the 2nd gen is superior sounding.


----------



## dazzer1975

thanks for the info efn, much appreciated.


----------



## GTL

hmm if the SQ of the second gen minibox e is up to the standard of the third gen, the offer on the china auction site looks like a great deal. wonder if it is too good to be true...


----------



## imademymark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*GTL:*
*djlemon:*
 Welcome to Head-Fi! sorry bout your wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

if he's who i think he is, then his wallet is already sorry


----------



## djlemon

EFN - Haha thanks.. It has been taking alot of beating..

 imademymark - Yeapp its me and yes, i'm very sorry for my wallet and bank account, but not so for my ears :X


----------



## musicmaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*musicmaker:*
 Cogratulations on the purchase. Have you asked the seller which version you will be receiving? The MB have three editions and the latest one uses the push button like mine. mrarroyo uses the 2nd gen which have SFOR function and the 3rd gen like mine is simpler in design (No SFOR). The 2nd gen can accept AD797 but not the 3rd gen._

 

Purchased from a local head-fier. Just picked the minibox-E+ up from him. Its the latest version I'm told. The one that has the red push buttons and no SFOR. Exactly like the one in your pic.

 I'm going to listen to the amp in stock form (without opamp rolling) for a while to get used to its sound signature as intended by the manufacturer. Also for my comparison with the other amps it will be in stock config only.

 I do want to try some other opamps in the MB-E+ after I get the comparison done. The AD797 last time I tried with my XP-7 was too dark for my tastes especially coupled with the Senns. Maybe it'll work well with bright headphones. Will the LT1028 work with this amp ? This was a sweet opamp. I LOVED it with my XP-7. Just superb. Can someone confirm if it'll work ? Maybe a basic question, but how do you determine which is a safe opamp to use with the MB-E+. What specs do you look for ?


----------



## EFN

*musicmaker:*
 Yep that sounds like you have the 3rd gen. On opamp rolling, an experienced tube junkie told me that for as long as you don't mess with the orientation, they will less likely to damage the amp even if they don't work properly. I am new to opamp rolling so my knowledge is probably worst that yours. But as a general rule of thumb, any mono JFET opamp will work. I resorted to trial and error method as I have ordered a few mono opamp online not knowing if they will work with the MB-+. Those opamps will arrive next week.


----------



## ed lynch

Thanks all, as far as i can see it, the latest minibox has higher power battery, thus delivering better sound, note i could be wrong, other things come into/play account, like circuitry, developent of r&d etc,


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ed lynch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks all, as far as i can see it, the latest minibox has higher power battery, thus delivering better sound, note i could be wrong, other things come into/play account, like circuitry, developent of r&d etc,_

 

Yes you are right. Better power will emit better sound. Classic example will be the Lisa III itself - when plugged into a 24V PSU she will sing as a full blown desktop amp. So does the older Go-Vibe V6 which can be hooked up with a 24V Elpac and many have testified that the higher supply transformed the V6 into a killer amp. The upcoming Xin Reference will also have higher current version.

 PS: The MiniBox-E+ (2nd and 3rd Gen all uses 18V)


----------



## GT20v

Tester no2 reporting in!!

 Just for the record.Even though I choosed minibox in the blind test but IF given the opportunities to own any of these amp.
 I will certainly go for LISAIII.There is something abt lisa that i cant sleep when think about it.
 its the details,great imaging and soundstage from the amp!and yeah! 
 I agreed maybe my HD215 doesnt cut enuff to do a comparison btw these 2 phone..

 I had a little disscussion with the 4th tester too..He did share the same feeling like me.

 I hope musicmaker review with better and good cans can reveal more details..


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GT20v* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tester no2 reporting in!!

 Just for the record.Even though I choosed minibox in the blind test but IF given the opportunities to own any of these amp.
 I will certainly go for LISAIII.There is something abt lisa that i cant sleep when think about it.
 its the details,great imaging and soundstage from the amp!and yeah! 
 I agreed maybe my HD215 doesnt cut enuff to do a comparison btw these 2 phone..

 I had a little disscussion with the 4th tester too..He did share the same feeling like me.

 I hope musicmaker review with better and good cans can reveal more details.._

 


 Thanks buddy. I concur your sentiment. There's something about Lisa III sound that no FR graph can show. The feeling, she was devoid of any edgyness while the MiniBox-E+ with the AD8065AR opamps will exhibit some minor spikes on certain tracks


----------



## GTL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks buddy. I concur your sentiment. There's something about Lisa III sound that no FR graph can show. The feeling, she was devoid of any edgyness while the MiniBox-E+ with the AD8065AR opamps will exhibit some minor spikes on certain tracks_

 

Aha but u sold ur lisa3! Says alot abt the minibox e+.


----------



## RIDE

So what impresses me more...is that the homely 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Minibox E+ blows doors on the Pico, iQube, Move, Zin, or anything from Ray Samuels. While not directly compared in this test...if it supposedly runs with the Lisa...it beats the rest of the competition hands down. Amazing.

 But with all of that being said.....I have to agree 100% with qusp. I don't think that he put down EFN at all....and presented his arguments in a polite manner...backed with plenty of experience and technical knowledge. At the same time...I very much appreciate the review and time spent by EFN and am also not trying to put down his effort.

 But why is it that someone talks about bying a pair of HD650s to use with his Tomahawk (as an example) and gets slammed for not using a power supply with enough juice to drive the cans to their fullest potential. But do the reverse, as in the test, and all is good. I'm just sayin...

 I bought a Lisa III myself because I wanted to have the option of running better cans that may need more power. The Lisa gives me that and the peace of mind that if used with anything lesser...it will drive those to their fullest potential. That is the absolute MOST versatility any portable amp can claim. I also intend to use high quality inter connects, an iMod, and maybe even a cap dock....again to take this beast to an even higher level.

 Minibox owners are likely buying it for it's value...which is stellar by the way. It's also likely that they are going to use it with cans that are also considered good values...such as the ones used in this test. That is not an insult....so please don't take it as such. I don't imagine them dropping money on expensive cables and stuff....which would arguably dwarf the cost of the amp. I may be off....but I'd bet that I am right in 90% of the cases.

 Again...none of that is bad in the slightest. I am impressed that even with easier to drive cans, that the Minibox performed so well. I can say that without hesitation...the next time anyone asks me what they should buy....AND they are on a budget...I will steer them towards this gem. I see no point in spending 2-3 times as much on some of the prettier competition.

 All qusp was noting that the Minibox was not in fact stock, and the cans used were not ones typically used by Lisa owners. So with that...I hope that the readers are aware before coming to any conclusions.

 RIDE


----------



## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GTL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aha but u sold ur lisa3! Says alot abt the minibox e+._

 


 By all account my decision to part ways with Lisa III should not be taken as a yardstick to gauge my preference to them sonically. It was the sheer portability of MiniBox-E+ that won my heart. I just can't justify lugging around three thick bricks that would require me to sling a separate bag in addition to my notebook backpack. You'd probably seen that my PCM1793 DAC is as big as the Lisa III - the MiniBox-E+ was slim enough to piggyback and yet still pocketable - yes you read it right, pocketable. My Dockers D2 can accomodate all three (with a terrible bulge of course). And on top of that I loved the flexibility of MiniBox-E+ which allows for opamp rolling. SQ wise I still think they are within the same league.

 Yet again this my ears we are talking about and my writing reflect them. It's purely your decision on how you want to interpret them. Like mrarroyo always said, not everyone like chocolate


----------



## qusp

Thanks RIDE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 glad someone actually understood where I was coming from; I wasnt even the only one expressing these views; I was just more explicit about them than others and yet i'm singled out as being conceited or whatever (I already admitted I was biased towards the lisa because I looooovve mine; although I still believe i'm reasonably open-minded as long as there is a chance for BOTH amps to show their strengths and shortcomings). TBH I cant see why people thought I was being malicious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 that certainly was not my intention. Perhaps I need to use more emoticons 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. my choice of the word 'proper' wasnt prudent, but all in all I thought I was being pretty level headed about the whole thing. It was presented as a test of these 2 amps; yet IMO the lisa wasnt tested and didnt even get to stretch her legs. anyway; its irrelevant now; I await Musicmaker's thread for more thorough results; who knows I might be surprised; but I doubt it.


----------



## musicmaker

folks, i have the miniBox-E+ and SR-71 with me now. And of course the Lisa. 

 The HD600 will be arriving in the next day or two. I want to get these amps to the 400 hour mark before i do any serious listening. The amps I'm told have about 150 or so hours on them. So, I won't have anything to share for another 2 weeks or so realistically. Headphones are all well burnt in (incl the HD600 I'm getting from a colleague has about 500 hrs or so on it), my HFI-780s have at least 400 hours, so they're all set.


----------



## K3cT




----------



## musicmaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_




_

 

I don't know what your little popcorn thing means but burning in unfortunately takes times. Also people I really trust have asked me to burn the amps in for 400 hours. The last thing I want is to write a mini review to get "but the amps dont have enough hours and haven't attained their full potential" type of comments. Thanks.


----------



## autosound

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know what your little popcorn thing means but burning in unfortunately takes times. Also people I really trust have asked me to burn the amps in for 400 hours. The last thing I want is to write a mini review to get "but the amps dont have enough hours and haven't attained their full potential" type of comments. Thanks._

 

It just means we're anxiously watching this thread, me included. This is going to be very interesting.


----------



## imademymark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks RIDE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 glad someone actually understood where I was coming from; I wasnt even the only one expressing these views; I was just more explicit about them than others and yet i'm singled out as being conceited or whatever (I already admitted I was biased towards the lisa because I looooovve mine; although I still believe i'm reasonably open-minded as long as there is a chance for BOTH amps to show their strengths and shortcomings). TBH I cant see why people thought I was being malicious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 that certainly was not my intention. Perhaps I need to use more emoticons 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. my choice of the word 'proper' wasnt prudent, but all in all I thought I was being pretty level headed about the whole thing. It was presented as a test of these 2 amps; yet IMO the lisa wasnt tested and didnt even get to stretch her legs. anyway; its irrelevant now; I await Musicmaker's thread for more thorough results; who knows I might be surprised; but I doubt it._

 

i was with you in the beginning, but i fell away from posting in this thread because i thought the point was made already


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## Jap

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks RIDE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 glad someone actually understood where I was coming from; I wasnt even the only one expressing these views; I was just more explicit about them than others and yet i'm singled out as being conceited or whatever (I already admitted I was biased towards the lisa because I looooovve mine; although I still believe i'm reasonably open-minded as long as there is a chance for BOTH amps to show their strengths and shortcomings). TBH I cant see why people thought I was being malicious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 that certainly was not my intention. Perhaps I need to use more emoticons 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. my choice of the word 'proper' wasnt prudent, but all in all I thought I was being pretty level headed about the whole thing. It was presented as a test of these 2 amps; yet IMO the lisa wasnt tested and didnt even get to stretch her legs. anyway; its irrelevant now; I await Musicmaker's thread for more thorough results; who knows I might be surprised; but I doubt it._

 

[size=small]
 I didn't have a problem with your arguments either. I do not own the Lisa . . . yet (although I am probably prone to lean towards purchasing the new desktop version). However, I _do_ own another of Phil's designs---the LaRocco Portable Reference 2 MKII (or PR2).

 The whole point in getting such an amp was maximum flexibility; the ability to reasonably employ the amp for home or portable use, the ability to drive phones that other portable amps don't have a prayer of driving adequately, the ability to experience quasi-home high fidelity sound on the go! For me (and apparently for Qusp and many others), that is what the LaRocco experience is all about---peddle to the metal audio quality within portable restraints (as with the PR2 and the early Lisa's) or with even lesser restraints (the desktop Lisa and the HeadCode, PortaCode, and ValveCode).

 Comparisons to Phil's designs will tend to invite scrutiny to the qualities mentioned above simply because Phil is a little-to-no compromise designer who naturally attracts little-to-no compromise users. There is no snobbishness here. In any hobby, there will be those who harbor a higher appreciation for the best of what that hobby offers. When it comes to sheer detail, transparency, headstaging, and musicality, I simply love Phil's tendency to constantly push the state of the art where ever possible.

 Qusp fairly questioned whether the amps were tested with respect to their respective strengths. That is certainly a most reasonable question to ask.[/size]


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## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know what your little popcorn thing means but burning in unfortunately takes times. Also people I really trust have asked me to burn the amps in for 400 hours. The last thing I want is to write a mini review to get "but the amps dont have enough hours and haven't attained their full potential" type of comments. Thanks._

 

No offense intended. Like autosound said, this is going to be very interesting indeed considering the parity in price. Just take you sweet time, man. We will be patiently waiting!


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## qusp

thanks guys; I didnt think I was that harsh (or harsh at all really) I await musikmaker's review thread with baited breath; but I think I already know what the answer is; this isnt the first time the lisa has been put up against other portables; it was second to none then and its second to none now too.


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## Nirvana1000

Looks like "Three Stones" better get too work and start pumping those amps out!Great review!


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## EFN

It has been a week since I parted ways with my Lisa III. I will admit that I miss the sound from time to time again. But a listen to my MB+ (AD8065AR) was enough to cure them.

 OTOH, following up the departure of the Lisa III, I have been listening to my STAX portable rig as well and now I will openly say that my highly *modded* (Audiocat mod) STAX SR-001 MK2 combo is well ahead of both the MB+ and Lisa III combined. For a speed, resolution and instrument separation junkie like me, the STAX electrostatic is a Godsend. Now I know why those Electrostatic fanboys raved so much about them. My ER-4 and other dynamic cans are looking at the bleak prospect of being relegated to the role of backup cans. But the downside is that to make them really sing, the SR-001 MK2 will need some modifications and this is not everyone cup of tea I am afraid


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## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Now I know why those Electrostatic fanboys raved so much about them. My ER-4 and other dynamic cans are looking at the bleak prospect of being relegated to the role of backup cans._

 

I haven't read all posts so far here...

 As you know I had the STAX SRS-005A kit. I thought it sounded very good but mine was stock...I'd love to hear the portable mod version. I demand portability for all my cans and mine couldn't give me that...so they had to go.

 ER4= backup cans...how times change 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. My ER4 are on the next shelf down so I can't rib you too much.

 I had the chance to hear the big bad boy SR-007 STAX once and it was like a dirty lust for them consumed me for a couple days.lol

 Are you destined to go to the big STAX *[size=medium]?[/size]*


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## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....Are you destined to go to the big STAX *[size=medium]?[/size]*



_

 

DOH you just have to rub them do you LOL!....looking at distant future the foretelling globe does look like me having STAX big boys somewhere in a corner......once I move to my new house which will have my own study/DIY room


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## ZephyrSapphire

Wonderful review EFN.


 And now...
 You buy amps to suit your headphones. Not the other way around.
 If a person thinks that amp A or amp B does not suit his headphones or does not give any extra benefit over another amp, then it is so.


 Oh EFN. Forget Stax. Get the Sony CD3k. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is coming from an ER4S *fan* like yourself.


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## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wonderful review EFN.


 And now...
 You buy amps to suit your headphones. Not the other way around.
 If a person thinks that amp A or amp B does not suit his headphones or does not give any extra benefit over another amp, then it is so.


 Oh EFN. Forget Stax. Get the Sony CD3k. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is coming from an ER4S like yourself._

 

LOL did you read what you wrote then zeph?? you told him to build around his headphones and then told him to change his headhones. hehe. lisa would drive CD3000 better than minibox E IMO hehe. ahhh OK i'll shut-up
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but it would still not be pocketable with the rest of his rig. I didnt ever argue his personal choice; just the testing regime


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## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL did you read what you wrote then zeph?? you told him to build around his headphones and then told him to change his headhones. hehe. lisa would drive CD3000 better than minibox E IMO hehe. ahhh OK i'll shut-up
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but it would still not be pocketable with the rest of his rig. I didnt ever argue his personal choice; just the testing regime_

 


 Oh course I did. I was just saying that he should just stick to whatever suits his ER4S and if he decides to venture into full-fledged headphones, he should get the CD3K instead of Stax since it's very very similar (to my ears) to the ER4S with more bass. The Lisa drive the CD3000's better? Now that I will have to listen to clarify since I haven't heard either with my CD3k. That's what meets are for!


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## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh course I did. I was just saying that he should just stick to whatever suits his ER4S and if he decides to venture into full-fledged headphones, he should get the CD3K instead of Stax since it's very very similar (to my ears) to the ER4S with more bass. The Lisa drive the CD3000's better? Now that I will have to listen to clarify since I haven't heard either with my CD3k. That's what meets are for! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

hehe ok fair call; yes that is what meets are for, this year should be a doozy


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## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh course I did. I was just saying that he should just stick to whatever suits his ER4S and if he decides to venture into full-fledged headphones, he should get the CD3K instead of Stax since it's very very similar (to my ears) to the ER4S with more bass. The Lisa drive the CD3000's better? Now that I will have to listen to clarify since I haven't heard either with my CD3k. That's what meets are for! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

CD3000 is definitely on my List. But they are not easy to come by since they are out of production. I did tried to score a used set from the forum but didn't fell through. Better luck next time perhaps


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## a19als

Great review!! please more!!


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## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_CD3000 is definitely on my List. But they are not easy to come by since they are out of production. I did tried to score a used set from the forum but didn't fell through. Better luck next time perhaps_

 

I think Zeph probably got them hehe


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## a19als

EFN, after long burning, what is sound change? another level, feeling..?!


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## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *a19als* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_EFN, after long burning, what is sound change? another level, feeling..?!_

 


 The MB+ stabilized after 400 hours. The Lisa III after 150 hours. The sound is quite consistent after that


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## a19als

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The MB+ stabilized after 400 hours. The Lisa III after 150 hours. The sound is quite consistent after that_

 

did you try another OP-AMPS? I will get a pair OP627 for test!


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## EFN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *a19als* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_did you try another OP-AMPS? I will get a pair OP627 for test!_

 

Cool. Tell us of the results. I am still sticking with AD8065AR


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## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EFN* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool. Tell us of the results. I am still sticking with AD8065AR_

 

how is RFI and EMF interference with the AD8065AR and stock opamps in the MBE?? just interested, because the D10 seems to have an issue with the one it comes with stock and since you have done a bit of rolling I thought i'd ask.


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