# Entry level speakers: Wharfedale 10.1, 10.2 or Audioengine A5 or P4



## abhiroopb

Hi All!

 Firstly, many thanks for helping me narrow down my speaker options. There is such a crazy range of choice I had no idea where to begin. I thought it was hard choosing a pair of headphones, but that was nothing compared to choosing a good set of speakers!

*Background:*
 I currently own the following:
 Sound Card: Asus Xonar Essence STX
Space Audio 2.0 Satellite Speakers (handling power 150 watts, frequency range 200hz-18khz)
JBL Power20 Amplifier
 KOK Subwoofer - 16Hz - 160Hz, 6.5", 30W (RMS) 60W (Max)

 I recently upgraded my PC and installed the ASUS soundcard and now I want to upgrade my sound system as well.

 My budget is an absolute maximum of SGD 1,000.

 I am not interested in getting a USB DAC at this point as I think the ASUS ought to be sufficient, of course this may change in the future, but right now my focus (in order of priority):

 1.Speakers
 2.Sub-Woofer (if needed)
 3.Amplifier (if needed)

*Speakers*
 Initially, I was quite happy with my Space Audio satellite speakers, however I had a chance to listen to other entry-level speakers and decided to upgrade the full thing and get a brand new 2.0 (maybe 2.1) system.

 With that in mind it seems that the two best options are either the Wharfedale Diamond 10 series (specifically either the 10.1 or 10.2) OR the Audioengine A5 or P4.

_*Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 or 10.2*_
 I am a little unsure as to the cost of these speakers in Singapore, but from what I can tell the 10.2 is better than the 10.1. Of course this most likely comes with a premium on the price as well. With that in mind I intend to listen to both and if I find that the 10.2 is significantly better (so as to justify the price) then I would be interested in getting that one. 

 A helpful salesman pointed them out to me and they looked and sounded gorgeous. I only had a brief test of them so I still want to do a thorough test before deciding, however I really really liked them! 

 These two sets of speakers would require an amp and so regarding that please see my “Amplifier” section below.

_*Audioengine A5 or P4*_
 The A5 has been recommended to me by a LOT of people as a simple and uncomplicated system that sounds amazing. I have read a lot of reviews and this truly seems like the set of speakers to get. If I like the sound of these then I think these would be my number 1 choice. Further, it has been suggested that using passive speakers with bad amplifiers are generally worse than getting a good powered speaker. 

 Having said that I have also heard that, generally speaking, active speakers are overall not as good as passive ones. I’m obviously not well versed in the issue but I would like some input on this. Essentially would it be better for me to save the money on the A5, buy the P4 and use my JBL Power20 Amp? I mean as I already have the amp then I would essentially be saving money, buying a set of speakers that (from what I gather) sound virtually the same as the A5. Naturally, the JBL amp was not made to specifically work with the P4 so the integration between the A5 and its built-in amp and the JBL and the P4 is going to be different, however the saving in cost may be worth it. This is just something I want to throw up there and get some feedback on. I don’t really want to compromise (much) on sound, so if the P4 with JBl amp will most certainly sound a LOT worse than the powered A5 then I don’t think I’ll be going for the P4.

 Finally, would it make sense to connect the A5 to my JBL amplifier? Would it improve the sound? Again bear in mind if I cannot sell the amp and I do buy the A5 it will just be lying around. I don’t want to force it down the throat of my new speakers but at the same time I don’t want to throw them away!

*Subwoofer*
 I have had a lot of input suggesting that these bookshelf speakers do not require any subwoofers. However, reviews suggest that while the bass is “clean and tight” it doesn’t give you the raw thumping that can be heard and felt. I generally listen to rock, pop and hip/hop and sometimes to jazz and classical. Anyway I have seen what a difference buying a relatively cheap subwoofer can do to my music, essentially allowing me to hear the things in a song I had never heard before! With that in mind I am very keen on buying a subwoofer to match either the Wharf or the Audioengine.

 Both companies make their own models of subwoofers (Wharf: SW 10, Audioengine: S8). However, there don’t seem to be any conclusive reviews on these models, although they seem to be universally liked anyway.

 So, my question is whether it is worth getting the sub if I really want the thumping sound and feeling and if so are the two options I mentioned the ideal ones to get?

 If the Wharf and Audioengine costs about SGD 400 – 500 that should leave me with about SGD 500 to buy a subwoofer (providing I don’t need an amplifier).

*Amplifier*
 This is a rather difficult problem for me. I have a JBL Power20 amplifier which costs about SGD 300, which I bought about 2 years ago when I first acquired the Space Audio satellite speakers and I needed a relatively uncomplicated amplifier to power the two speakers. Right now I am unsure of what to do with the JBL Power20 amp. Someone has mentioned that as it is a “power amp” it should be sufficient to drive the Wharfs or Audioengine’s. Obviously, the A5 does not even need an amp anyway.

 My query is this: can anyone figure out WHAT this amp is exactly and whether they would be suitable for the passive speaker options (i.e. the Wharf 10.1/2 and the P4).

 Basically, I do not want to spend money on an amp unless I can find something that fits into my overall budget (SGD 1000). Also I don’t want to simply throw my current one away. So, I would like to somehow utilize it in my new setup. 

*Sound Card*
 Bearing in mind I do not want to buy any more hardware at this point (including a USB DAC), what is the best way to connect up the speakers from my ASUS sound card?

 Right now I have a RCA output from my sound card to my subwoofer’s input. The subwoofer has an output to my JBL amplifier and my JBL amplifier has two outputs to the satellite speakers.

 I have heard of “pre-amps” and the like and I was wondering what the ideal setup would be? Again don’t want to spend exorbitant amounts of money but if there is a relatively good way of improving the sound then I would like to know.

*Listening Tests*
 I know the first thing everyone will say is “go listen and then decide”. I fully intend to do that tonight and I plan on spending a few hours in Adelphi, auditioning the four sets of speakers I have mentioned. If anyone can name any specific shops that they have had good experience with regarding these speakers please let me know (even if they are NOT in Adelphi).

*Summary/Questions:*

 1.Between the 10.1 and 10.2 which is more recommended (bearing in mind I do not have an unlimited budget)? Essentially, is the price difference (nb: I don’t know the prices yet in Singapore) worth it?
 2.If my JBL Power20 amp works WELL with the Audioengine P4, should I get it instead of the A5?
 3.Should I get a subwoofer? If so which one?
 4.What is the best way to connect up all the equipment from my sound card?
 5.Any good shops to try out these speakers? 
 6.What kind of prices am I looking at for the Wharfedale 10.1, 10.2 and SW-10 and the Audioengine A5, P4 and S8?
 7.Any suggestions for speaker stands?

 Any other speaker/subwoofer/general suggestions? Someone has mentioned Swans to me but I was unable to find any dealer for them in Singapore.

 Thanks a lot for taking the time to read this unnecessarily long post! I will update after I have auditioned a few sets tonight.


----------



## abhiroopb

Update: Went to Adelphi today.

 Unfortunately, CD Acoustic was shut so couldn't try out the A5/S8. They seem to close quite early so the only way I can see them is over the weekend. Incidentally, are there any other shops in Singapore that sell the A5?

 I had a chance to listen to a pair of Dali Lektor, Epos (don't remember the model), Wharfedales, Heco and Focal.

 I got quite a big spectrum there from the lower end Wharf to the SGD 1000 Focal's.

 My thoughts on bookshelf speakers are that I basically have to spend quite a bit (i.e. more than the 10.1 Wharf) to get really deep thumping lows. Obviously the more I pay the better the speakers will sound, but I really missed the sub by itself. After it was connected it was as though something was taken out of my ears and I could hear properly.

 Now the problem is that unless I buy a very expensive active subwoofer I don't see how I can connect up a sub and two speakers to my JBL amp (which only has two speaker outs).

 In summary I think based on how the A5 sounds I will be getting it together with the S8.

 Any comments?


----------



## Armaegis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *abhiroopb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now the problem is that unless I buy a very expensive active subwoofer I don't see how I can connect up a sub and two speakers to my JBL amp (which only has two speaker outs).

 In summary I think based on how the A5 sounds I will be getting it together with the S8.

 Any comments?_

 

Most subs will have outputs on them for feeding back into your amp. 

 Since you have an amp already, I'd go with the P4+S8 combo and call it a day.


----------



## abhiroopb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Armaegis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most subs will have outputs on them for feeding back into your amp. 

 Since you have an amp already, I'd go with the P4+S8 combo and call it a day._

 

Thanks, I was pretty much leaning towards the A5+S8. Just confused about your comment: "Since you have an amp already", what does that mean? Is it that because I have an amp the A5+S8 will work best? If so, how is that possible as I assume I won't need an amp with the A5+S8


----------



## muad

You only need an amp if your speakers are passive. What armaegis is saying is get the passive audioengine p4's and use your amp. I don't agree personally with this. The amp in the a5 is matched to the speaker itself. That way audioengines engineers can use an amp that completments the speaker to get the sound right. With the P4 and the jbl amp you're not going to know what you get. You can always try to audition the p4 speakers and take your amp along... If it still sounds good then by all means go for it.

 That one of the reasons Im afraid to go integrated amp with a passive speaker. For whatever reason it's hard to find actual good quality stores in vancouver. Everything here is big box stores. They mainly carry overpriced junk.


----------



## abhiroopb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *muad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You only need an amp if your speakers are passive. What armaegis is saying is get the passive audioengine p4's and use your amp. I don't agree personally with this. The amp in the a5 is matched to the speaker itself. That way audioengines engineers can use an amp that completments the speaker to get the sound right. With the P4 and the jbl amp you're not going to know what you get. You can always try to audition the p4 speakers and take your amp along... If it still sounds good then by all means go for it.

 That one of the reasons Im afraid to go integrated amp with a passive speaker. For whatever reason it's hard to find actual good quality stores in vancouver. Everything here is big box stores. They mainly carry overpriced junk._

 

Apologies, I think I misread his post as "*A5*+S8" instead of *P4*+S8.

 In any case it seems that the P4 is not very popular here and the only shop that seems to sell AE speakers has only the one on display. I will have a listen and see if if it's acceptable. But, as you say it's much better to simply buy the package that has been tailor made.

 On another note I have been offered a pair of Bose Lifestyle 5 speakers for SGD 500 (plus free wall mounts which cost about SGD 100). The price for a Bose system is of course very good, but I have a few concerns.

 I'm not entirely sure which model the Bose Lifestyle 5 actually is! There seem to be so many Bose products that it's hard to keep track.

 I originally had a pair of the Bose Tri-Port in-ear headphones. Wow were they awful! They were so bad I was universally put off by IEMs, that is until I bought my Westone 2 and realised that it was just Bose's fault for my terrible experience with IEM.

 Anyway, what I have found with Bose is that if their prices are significantly lower then their products aren't actually too bad! That is the main reason I am considering this offer as the price seems to be quite reasonable for a Bose system. Any thoughts?


----------



## anetode

There's a lot of buzz on audioholics about the Behringer 2031a powered monitors, which look like a better value than even the A5. If they're as flat and detailed as they say.


----------



## abhiroopb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *anetode* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a lot of buzz on audioholics about the Behringer 2031a powered monitors, which look like a better value than even the A5. If they're as flat and detailed as they say._

 

Looks interesting, can't quite figure out what the inputs are though.


----------



## Armaegis

The Behringers listed above do not take your standard stereo mini or RCA inputs. They require balanced XLR or balanced 1/4" TSR which you can typically only get from a recording interface. It can likely also take unbalanced 1/4" TS which you can rig up from a standard RCA cable with some RCA>TS adapters at one end.

 I suggested the P4 mostly due to the price difference. It's a fair bit cheaper than the A5's.


----------



## abhiroopb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Armaegis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Behringers listed above do not take your standard stereo mini or RCA inputs. They require balanced XLR or balanced 1/4" TSR which you can typically only get from a recording interface. It can likely also take unbalanced 1/4" TS which you can rig up from a standard RCA cable with some RCA>TS adapters at one end.

 I suggested the P4 mostly due to the price difference. It's a fair bit cheaper than the A5's._

 

I think I have the requisite adapters already. But, I'm not sure what balanced and unbalanced means. In any case I can't seem to find much information on them in Singapore. 

 The price difference is significant but I fear that the P4 is not available in Singapore. The shop that stocks AEs said they only had the one that was on display! I'll have to compare the prices and see which one makes more sense.


----------



## muad

BTW be careful with the Behringer 2031a. Some people are experiencing radio interference with them even when they're not connected to anything.


----------



## abhiroopb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *muad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW be careful with the Behringer 2031a. Some people are experiencing radio interference with them even when they're not connected to anything._

 

Thanks for the tip!


----------



## abhiroopb

Just having a look at the connections available for the A5 and S8.

 The A5 has two 3.5mm inputs and one set of RCA outputs (line out). The S8 has one 3.5mm input, one RCA input and one RCA output

 So, it seems I have two options when hooking up my speakers:

 1. ASUS sound card > A5 > S8 OR

 2. ASUS sound card > S8 > A5

 Is it better to go through the sub?


----------



## abhiroopb

On another note I'm also interested in knowing what the crossover frequency and "phase" is on the back of the S8. 

 From what I understand the crossover frequency sets which sounds goes to the sub and which goes to the speakers. Am I correct in that assumption? I can see there is a lot of articles on it, but nothing I could find that sort of gives a guide on exactly what I should be looking/listening for.

 I have no idea what the "phase" is!


----------



## Armaegis

If everything is passed around at line-level, in theory it should make no difference if it goes from speakers>sub or sub>speakers. Just pick the arrangement with the easiest cabling relative to where you set everything up. 

 In the case of a subwoofer, the crossover is really more like a filter. But for the most part what you have above is correct.

 Phase is sort of a tricky beast, and for the most part is something you don't have to worry about if your speakers and sub are all relatively close to each other. Phase cancellation is something that you might notice in the low frequencies if you've ever moved a sub around a room; in some spots it sounds louder and in some spots it sounds like nothing. This is because the sound waves reflecting off the walls can occasionally cancel each other out. In the case of arrangement with other speakers, it's possible that the sound waves from the sub will cancel out the waves from the speakers (usually only noticeable in the low range; high frequencies are less likely affected). Controlling the phase then is essentially putting in a tiny delay, to pull the soundwave phase into alignment with the speakers.


----------



## abhiroopb

Just bought the A5 and the S8 sub. Sounded incredible with most of the songs I threw at it. However, it wasn't that great with more "technical" songs. However, it still blew my socks off, especially with the sub.

 Thanks for all the help!

 I'm just on the look out for some speaker stands now, so if anyone can help I'd appreciate it!


----------



## Lenni

congrats on the purchase. you've made the right choice (imo) out of the other options you've mentioned. I was looking for an audio rack and came across these speaker stands that may be interest you Sanus - Basic Foundations III


----------



## muad

I don't know if I mentioned it earlier or not. The a5's scale very well with the source. Im currently using an audio-gd fun with the opa earth for a dac and preamp and the sound is perfect. Very detailed and the best sound stage I've heard to date. The technical songs are perfect. Everything is so well defined and clean. A completely black background. You might gain something by trying different opamps in your xonar essence. A good person to ask is robscix. The dual LME49710HA is quite highly recommended for the essence.


----------



## abhiroopb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lenni* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_congrats on the purchase. you've made the right choice (imo) out of the other options you've mentioned. I was looking for an audio rack and came across these speaker stands that may be interest you Sanus - Basic Foundations III_

 

Thanks a lot, really enjoying these speakers. And watching movies with the sub is a whole new experience.

 I decided to go with the IKEA Billy Bookcase I needed some space for my books anyway and they were fairly cheap.


----------



## abhiroopb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *muad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know if I mentioned it earlier or not. The a5's scale very well with the source. Im currently using an audio-gd fun with the opa earth for a dac and preamp and the sound is perfect. Very detailed and the best sound stage I've heard to date. The technical songs are perfect. Everything is so well defined and clean. A completely black background. You might gain something by trying different opamps in your xonar essence. A good person to ask is robscix. The dual LME49710HA is quite highly recommended for the essence._

 

Ok firstly, bear in mind my understanding is quite rudimentary in this regard.

 Generally, if I listen to rock or heavy metal the guitar comes across beautiful as does the bass (especially with the sub - which I have set to about 30% volume and 80Hz crossover). However, if I listen to Bocelli or anything that has a lot of vocals it starts to sound a little "muddy". Now this may be the source file (and I have a feeling it is) because while a lot of my songs are flac, and almost all are 200kbps+ I do have some below 200kbps.

 I'm going to put in a CD and have a listen tonight and really put it through its paces.

 Any song you would recommend I listen to? To get a real sense of the thing?

 The bass of the sub is crazy though really has the "booming" effect. Although even with the speakers on mute I can still hear the song so I think it works pretty well.


----------



## Saintkeat

I took a listen to the Wharfedale diamond 10.1 today and they sound pretty fantastic paired with a marantz amp. Was looking to get both the amp and the speakers for a small living room. I have an active subwoofer that could pair with it so i save a little money. Any opinions?
   
  Uses:
  Music --> Jazz, Classical, Lounge
  &
  Movies (watch a lot of bluray)


----------



## lmf22

Quote: 





saintkeat said:


> I took a listen to the Wharfedale diamond 10.1 today and they sound pretty fantastic paired with a marantz amp. Was looking to get both the amp and the speakers for a small living room. I have an active subwoofer that could pair with it so i save a little money. Any opinions?
> 
> Uses:
> Music --> Jazz, Classical, Lounge
> ...


 
   
  I recently got the Wharfedale Diamond 10.1, powered by the Peachtree Nova.  They sound fantastic.  The soundstage is wide and deep.  The treble is not piercing like my Focal 706V.  I think the mids are just right.  I didn't really listen to the bass because because I use a Velodyne Impact subwoofer with the speakers.  Overall, I think the Diamond 10.1 is great for a small/medium size room, whereas the Focals are better for larger rooms; when I'm sitting close to the Focals they can sometimes become overpowering, but not with the Diamond 10.1.  
   
  I also listen to jazz, classical, and watch movies/TV.  The Diamond 10.1 works great with all those.  I think it's a great pair of speakers, especially for only $300 (which I consider inexpensive for speakers of this quality).  
   
  I got the Diamond 10.1 from Wild West Electronics (http://www.wildwestelectronics.net/diamond-10-1-wharfedale-book-shelf-speakers.html), and I think it's a great deal for such great speakers.  And they look very nice!


----------

