# Sound Card Vs. External DAC



## kuhchuk

I'm pretty new to the world of hi-fi audio, and I'm looking into improving my rig for music capabilities.  I'm looking into either getting a new sound card or an external DAC, but I'm not sure which is the better route.

 To give you an idea for what I want to do, I'd like to set up my computer so I can have the Soundcard/DAC run to both a desktop headphone amp and a home theater receiver I'm currently using to run my bookshelf speakers.  I'm just wondering whether a soundcard or external DAC would be better in my situation.

 Thanks for any help in advance, and if you need more information to give me an answer, I'll be more than willing to provide it.


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## Jasper9395

I am sure there are some sound cards out there that are quite good but ultimately they are unable to compete with external DACs. One major problem with an internal sound card is that it is is directly connected to your motherboard which inevitably introduces noise into the circuit. This problem is much reduced with outboard power supplies on DACs, and even more once you move from a USB connection to optical or coaxial to connect your computer to the DAC. What sort of budget did you have in mind?


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## kuhchuk

I was thinking something under 200 USD, and in particular I've been looking into the Schiit Modi.


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## Jasper9395

I have not heard it but lots of people on here are recommending it. Schiit has been coming out with great products. For 200 USD you can get the Modi and Magni combo. Pair that with a hifiman HE-400 in the future when your ready for an upgrade and you have a killer budget system. The only minor inconvenience is that the Modi only has one output but I think its something you should be willing to overlook. I am actually unplugging the RCA between my DAC and headphone amp/speaker amp constantly at the moment because I only have one high quality RCA. Its all about the sound on this form haha.


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## kuhchuk

I was already considering the M&M combo as I've seen it referred to, and I actually have a workaround to the single output problem.  I have a single input, dual output stereo RCA switch, so I figured if I wanted to have the amp and my receiver hooked up, I'd just route the Modi to the switch and just switch my outputs with the press of a button.


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## NamelessPFG

First off: do you play PC games? If so, external DACs that only have USB inputs are out of the question. (S/PDIF ones are viable since you can connect them to sound cards.)
   
  Second, I've had personal experience A/B'ing a JDS Labs ObjectiveDAC against my X-Fi Titanium HD. I volume-matched 'em both, ran them through the same headphone/amp chain, and was hard-pressed to hear ANY difference between the two no matter how hard I tried. No noise, just a clean source on both.
   
  The ODAC is nice if you just want a plug-and-play solution for music, though it lacks a lot of gaming DSP features I find critical, with no way to add them. Also, it's not of much use for A/V receivers, as is any other DAC, seeing as A/V receivers with HDMI and S/PDIF inputs have DACs of their own.
   
  Come to think of it, if you're connecting both an A/V receiver and a headphone/amp setup to the same computer...how are you planning to connect them, exactly? S/PDIF -> DAC -> amp -> headphones and HDMI -> AVR -> speakers?


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## kuhchuk

While I DO play games, my rig is pretty terrible for gaming anyways, so I'm not worrying about gaining any sort of advantage in my games through sound.

 For example, when I'm playing TF2 at pretty much the lowest possible settings, I average about 30fps with dips as low as 15fps.  Then there are the massive ping spikes that completely freeze me in place for 3 seconds.
  In summation, I'm not worried about gaming sound so much when I can barely manage to go 10 minutes without dying for something I can guarantee was caused by my terrible computer/internet.


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## kuhchuk

Oh, and to clarify, I intend to connect my rig as follows:
 PC > USB cable to the Modi > Stereo RCA Switch.
 From the Switch, I'll have RCA cables leading to the amp and another pair leading to my receiver's RCA inputs.  I got most of my rig for free, so I'm not gonna complain about it, but it's all quite old and definitely not up to par just yet.  I plan on replacing the majority of it over time, though.
   
  Edit:  I forgot a fun fact about my receiver.  It's so old that it doesn't even have a single HDMI port.


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## Jasper9395

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Second, I've had personal experience A/B'ing a JDS Labs ObjectiveDAC against my X-Fi Titanium HD. I volume-matched 'em both, ran them through the same headphone/amp chain, and was hard-pressed to hear ANY difference between the two no matter how hard I tried. No noise, just a clean source on both.


 
  Yes, at this level I would defiantly still expect sound cards to be able to compete.


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## Jasper9395

Quote: 





kuhchuk said:


> Edit:  I forgot a fun fact about my receiver.  It's so old that it doesn't even have a single HDMI port.


 
  Anything is better when its free, how old is it? If its more than 10 years I would recommend replacing the capacitors on the power supply. Its quite easy if you like doing a little DIY.


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## kuhchuk

Quote: 





jasper9395 said:


> Anything is better when its free, how old is it? If its more than 10 years I would recommend replacing the capacitors on the power supply. Its quite easy if you like doing a little DIY.


 

 I'm not quite sure of the age, but I don't think it's quite at the decade mark yet.  There is some fairly significant noise that it introduces into the mix, as I've noticed.  On fairly quiet portions of song, it'll start playing static through my speakers.  When I plugged in my headphones to it recently (to avoid having to crawl behind my computer to reach the ports of my soundcard (that probably has reached the decade mark)) I found that when nothing was playing at all, there was a fair bit of white noise that persisted when I played some music. 

 I'm gonna look into the age of the thing, and maybe look into replacing the capacitors, which I can have my friend help me with.


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## Jasper9395

Well it could also just be the quality of the amp itself. In general after about 10 years electrolytic capacitors start to deteriorate quite a bit. Replacing them with some good quality ones always yields improvement. You can also increase the capacitance as much as you like for maximum effect. Its a fun little upgrade. Increasing the capacitance basically makes your amp less noisy and give it a little more punish and clarity all round. The power supply caps are really easy to spot. Just open the amp, they will be the largest caps by physical size and capacitance in there.


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## kuhchuk

Well, after a bit of research, I found that this receiver is nearly 10 years old, so I suppose it may be time to throw in a couple new capacitors.  Guess I'll be busting out the screwdriver tomorrow to have a look inside. 
  
   
  Also, I'd like to thank the two of you for taking the time to help me out.  It's much appreciated, especially when I've only got a vague idea of what I'm doing.


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## Wolter

Hello.
 Who could  recommend me a DAC up to $ 200 for hi-fi system - Q Acoustics Q2050i and Yamaha A-S500. My goal is to improve the sound quality. I would listening a electronic music (house, deep house, tech house). I would greatly appreciate for your help. (Sorry if not here Signature)


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## cel4145

If you would like a DAC that is also portable and so small you could hide it behind your amp, I would recommend the ODAC. The version with the 3.5mm connectors is about half the size of an iphone and twice as thick. I use it with my HK 3390 and Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE speakers, and it sounds awesome. 

Otherwise, get the Schiit Modi that has already been discussed in this thread. My understanding is that it's equivalent in SQ to the ODAC, and so both are probably the best values you could get for $200 or less.


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## Wolter

But this's *No 24/192*kHz*. *It's nothing changes? :\


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## Flisker

Quote: 





wolter said:


> But this's *No 24/192*kHz*. *It's nothing changes? :\


 
   
  As far as my experience goes ... no it doesn't matter. (Guess unless you are spending damn lot of money on whole audio setup... and in that case you wouldn't be thinking about Modi)


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## Koerhijo

Mmmm, Magni/Modi combination. I'm telling you - it's a steal.


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## xxicrimsonixx

I use the ASUS Xonar Essence STX for this exact same set up. It has a 600 Ohm amp which I can use to power any headphone I want (it only has 1/4" jacks), plus it uses RCA jacks for the speakers, which can be plugged straight into any A/V Reciever. I personally use a Yamaha RX-V471 Reciever.


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## Wolter

However, now it is too late, I bought this thing - audinst hud mx1


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## koolas

flisker said:


> As far as my experience goes ... no it doesn't matter. (Guess unless you are spending damn lot of money on whole audio setup... and in that case you wouldn't be thinking about Modi)




More, I will tell you that you would really prefer to listen to hi-end 48kHz than low-end 192kHz. As an example my NAD does only 48kHz and sounds at least the same if not better than 192kHz on Lenovo.


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## koolas

wolter said:


> Hello.
> 
> Who could  recommend me a DAC up to $ 200 for hi-fi system - *Q Acoustics Q2050i* and Yamaha A-S500. My goal is to improve the sound quality. I would listening a electronic music (house, deep house, tech house). I would greatly appreciate for your help. (Sorry if not here Signature)




Great pair of speakers, I just got one too


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## lttlfld

I'd like to piggyback on this post. I've read over NamelessPFG's guide to PC gaming, but I'm still a little lost on USB dacs vs soundcards vs amps vs ??? I bought a dragonfly USB DAC with my sennheiser 598s. I like to game on the go with a decent MSI laptop, but I'm not sure the dragonfly actually improves gaming at all; and, if it does, I have no idea if I'm using the right settings (the laptop came with windows 8). I also want to use them for quiet office music listening. However, my real gaming prize is my desktop at home with a gtx 780 and 1440p monitor (I figured it was about time I stopped getting my audio from the monitor speakers - yikes!!).
Anyway, I like the dragonfly for it's portability, but I also found a xonar DX soundcard used for $40. Would this be worth buying for my desktop, or does the dragonfly I already own trump it? Also, should I chuck the dragonfly all together and buy the sound card + external amp that could be used with the sound card but also by itself on the go?
I am a total newbie to all this, so please speak to me as if speaking to a child


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## NamelessPFG

lttlfld said:


> I'd like to piggyback on this post. I've read over @NamelessPFG's guide to PC gaming, but I'm still a little lost on USB dacs vs soundcards vs amps vs ??? I bought a dragonfly USB DAC with my sennheiser 598s. I like to game on the go with a decent MSI laptop, but I'm not sure the dragonfly actually improves gaming at all; and, if it does, I have no idea if I'm using the right settings (the laptop came with windows 8). I also want to use them for quiet office music listening. However, my real gaming prize is my desktop at home with a gtx 780 and 1440p monitor (I figured it was about time I stopped getting my audio from the monitor speakers - yikes!!).
> Anyway, I like the dragonfly for it's portability, but I also found a xonar DX soundcard used for $40. Would this be worth buying for my desktop, or does the dragonfly I already own trump it? Also, should I chuck the dragonfly all together and buy the sound card + external amp that could be used with the sound card but also by itself on the go?
> I am a total newbie to all this, so please speak to me as if speaking to a child


 
  
 You'd have been better off asking on my guide thread. It was only by chance that I saw this.
  
 The Xonar DX has Dolby Headphone and DS3DGX (their answer to ALchemy). For $40, I'd say it's worth it.
  
 USB DACs like the Dragonfly are not meant for gaming; they lack DSP features like headphone virtual surround, and if you care for older PC games, the A3D/EAX effects they used. You can still use things like Razer Surround or Out Of Your Head for virtual surround, but the former's kinda lackluster and I haven't tried the latter, which is payware.


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## lttlfld

namelesspfg said:


> You'd have been better off asking on my guide thread. It was only by chance that I saw this.
> 
> The Xonar DX has Dolby Headphone and DS3DGX (their answer to ALchemy). For $40, I'd say it's worth it.
> 
> USB DACs like the Dragonfly are not meant for gaming; they lack DSP features like headphone virtual surround, and if you care for older PC games, the A3D/EAX effects they used. You can still use things like Razer Surround or Out Of Your Head for virtual surround, but the former's kinda lackluster and I haven't tried the latter, which is payware.



Thank you! I'm new to the site, so apologize for the clumsiness. Is there anything I could get for my laptop to improve the positional awareness from my 598s?


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## Pixel Eater

I have a weird question. It seems to me like a USB connected DAC would have at least the advantage that the source hadn't passed through a name brand sound card of any kind, while an optical output would possibly have been I don't know, colored or treated in some way by what maybe subpar on board sound thought was best? Is there anything to this, or would there be no conceivable difference between coming off the optical on board vs. say a hi end sound card? I guess I'm asking is it a given that optical outs are neutral and unprocessed.


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## Ari33

pixel eater said:


> I guess I'm asking is it a given that optical outs are neutral and unprocessed.




Yes, that is correct. An optical digital signal consists of binary code in 1's and 0's which cannot be 'flavoured' by the source in any way before being converted to analogue by the DAC.


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## NamelessPFG

lttlfld said:


> Thank you! I'm new to the site, so apologize for the clumsiness. Is there anything I could get for my laptop to improve the positional awareness from my 598s?


 
  
 Most of the current Creative and Asus USB audio devices will provide the gaming features you're looking for.
  
 I haven't tried either side's current lineup, though...well, I did have a Recon3D USB at one point, but I wasn't all that impressed with it, to be honest.


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## lttlfld

namelesspfg said:


> Most of the current Creative and Asus USB audio devices will provide the gaming features you're looking for.
> 
> I haven't tried either side's current lineup, though...well, I did have a Recon3D USB at one point, but I wasn't all that impressed with it, to be honest.



The dragonfly isn't doing anything for me so I'm getting an eclaro sound card for the desktop and just doing to keep the laptop running without anything extra


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## RomanBurrr

namelesspfg said:


> The ODAC is nice if you just want a plug-and-play solution for music, though it lacks a lot of gaming DSP features I find critical, with no way to add them.


 
  
 Are there external DACs that do have DSP features for PC gaming, and if yes could you possibly recommend a few?
  
 Thanks


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## imeem

romanburrr said:


> Are there external DACs that do have DSP features for PC gaming, and if yes could you possibly recommend a few?
> 
> Thanks


 
 Maybe usb soundcards made by Creative? like this one http://us.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-x-fi-surround-5-1-pro
  
 http://us.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-x-fi-go-pro


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## RomanBurrr

imeem said:


> Maybe usb soundcards made by Creative? like this one http://us.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-x-fi-surround-5-1-pro
> 
> http://us.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-x-fi-go-pro


 
 Thanks! Ive seen this before, anyone used this ?


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## Andrew Werdna

I haven't experienced an audiophile sound card, although I'm sure they must be out there. It would likely make a huge difference on the routing of the signal. As for replacing capacitors, why? If a receiver checks out and the sound is balanced, there is no reason to replace parts that are working. I have several vintage receivers and the capacitors are all fine. Servicing usually involves cleaning switches, balancing, cleaning fuse connections and checking for solder breaks and that's it. It IS possible to find very modestly priced vintage equipment that will sound as good or better than current equipment costing much more.


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## nothing4me

FYI, if you don't handle capacitors correctly... they can and will kill you (especially power supply capacitors via discharge). So, don't do it if you have zero experience with modifying and building electronics. If you are going to do it anyway... google around on how to do it safely.


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## wooo headphones

namelesspfg said:


> First off: do you play PC games? If so, external DACs that only have USB inputs are out of the question. (S/PDIF ones are viable since you can connect them to sound cards.)


 
  
 Why are external DACs that connect through USB non starters for video games? I play a lot of Counter-Strike so positional audio for footsteps is extremely important.
  
 My setup is HE-500 with Project Polaris amplifier. I am currently using a FiiO E7 DAC from 2011 or something which connects through USB. I've been looking to upgrade my source.
  
 Given my setup, do you guys recommend a high end soundcard or an external DAC? I was looking into the Sound Blaster Zx but the built in amplifier is sort of throwing me off ... seems like the card is designed for high impedence headphones, which mine are not. I'm not a big expert on circuitry but I just have an inkling that the pairing with my HE-500 will be suboptimal given what I've read in the past about output impedance.
  
 So, maybe better I get an external DAC? What are some good suggestions for <= $300? I guess USB is out of the question....good to know.


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## imeem

wooo headphones said:


> Why are external DACs that connect through USB non starters for video games? I play a lot of Counter-Strike so positional audio for footsteps is extremely important.
> 
> My setup is HE-500 with Project Polaris amplifier. I am currently using a FiiO E7 DAC from 2011 or something which connects through USB. I've been looking to upgrade my source.
> 
> ...




USB sound cards r bad for gaming because they have bad sound positioning. More worse than internal/on board sound card. You can do a test yourself to see if it is true for your case.

I would say for gaming, get a internal sound card or a multi channel a/v receiver that can output surround sound to your headphones. Or look at gaming-oriented external DACs that don't compromise sound positioning


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## U-3C

Anybody bothered to try this with onboard realtek alc1150?

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=392085

It bypassed my onboard's drivers, which intentionally crippled the dac and made it sound like schiit.

There's also Creative's SBX if you don't like Dolby:

https://m.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/410kj7/creative_dsp_sbx_without_creative_hardware/

I'm mostly interested in the Dolby one. Can anyone with an Asus card test and see if there is a difference in terms of sound quality, especially without any dsp enabled? I really am interested in a direct comparison to see if there is even a difference between different onboard audio and an internal sound card, as some onboard audio are quite good.


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