# For 6AS7G tube rollers here .....



## glitch39

*tried to put together some 6AS7G equivalents with notes (from my personal experience). of course, the usual brand/re-label disclaimers apply. So no need which one is better. The goal here is just to list the main equivalents that may work in your amp's circuit. Did I miss any equivalents?*


*6080 - low gain @ 2- great vocals, wide soundstaging

 7236 - medium gain - great bass, fast and dynamic. Almost SS sounding

 5998A - medium gain in straight bottle. Plate construction like 6AS7.

 5998 - medium gain at 5, full-bodied sound, same current load as 6AS7

 421A - same as 5998 but with matched plates/sections

 6AS7G - low gain, the standard tube for most, plentiful

 6AS7GA - low gain, like the standard 6AS7G in striaght bottle

 6520 - premium 6SA7G, sometimes with 5998 plates

 6H13 - russian 6AS7G equivalent. nothing magical with these

 ECC230 - european 6AS7G equivalent. haven't seen one in person

 6528 - equiv to 5998 but very high gain at 9, twice the current load. Make sure you amp can handle it

 6336 - like 6528 but low gain at 2, still twice current load. Make sure you amp can handle it*


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## bdh

Like you said at the top, this is what you experienced with you amp and input tube.

 So as far as your description of sound though, that is very dependent on the input tube (and presumably the amp as well.)

 For example with the 2c51 input, the 6AS7G's had a weird soundstage and sounded poor in my Extreme. But with the Tung Sol 5998's it was very natural and powerful.

 But with some 12AT7's the 5998's sounded way too forward and bright, but were more natural with the 6AS7G's.


 I think there is a 6080W also.
 And the 2399.


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## bdh

Oh, and I just talked with Mikhail today. He said he's developing a new adapter for the Extreme output socket so that it can handle a very different tube type -- I don't remember which tube it was though.


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## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bdh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, and I just talked with Mikhail today. He said he's developing a new adapter for the Extreme output socket so that it can handle a very different tube type -- I don't remember which tube it was though._

 

4X150A/ 7034/ CV2519 run VERY conservatively in the Extreme for 2.3 watts per channel.

 Heater voltage 6V 
 Heater current 2.6A 
 Max negative control grid voltage -250V 
 Max input control grid 2W 
 Max heater/cathode voltage +/-150V 
 Max anode core temperature 250C 
 Max anode seal temperature 200C 
 Max base seal temperature 175C 
 Max altitude 10,000 feet 
 Min cathode heating time 30 secs 

 Class AB audio 
 Max anode voltage 2kV 
 Max anode dissipation 250W 
 Max anode input 500W 
 Max anode current 250mA 
 Max screen voltage 400V 
 Max screen dissipation 12W


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## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bdh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like you said at the top, this is what you experienced with you amp and input tube.

 So as far as your description of sound though, that is very dependent on the input tube (and presumably the amp as well.)

 For example with the 2c51 input, the 6AS7G's had a weird soundstage and sounded poor in my Extreme. But with the Tung Sol 5998's it was very natural and powerful.

 But with some 12AT7's the 5998's sounded way too forward and bright, but were more natural with the 6AS7G's.


 I think there is a 6080W also.
 And the 2399._

 

The 6080W is about the same as the 6080 just a different manufacturing era .... there is the 6080WA /B /C. 

 The 2399 is a better quality 6AS7G with tighter section matching and apparently the ability to handle higher plate current. This tube in the pic has the plates that look like the 5998 plates .... which makes sense since most 5998s were made by TS and this example is a TS 2399. This tube is possibly almost identical to some of the 6AS7s with the 5998 plates. But, I think this tube sounds the same as all my other TS 6AS7s. Personally, unless you need more gain I like the 6AS7G as well as any tube in this series.


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## xenithon

Some comments from my experience in my WA2:

  Quote:


 6080 - low gain @ 2- great vocals, wide soundstaging 
 

I'd love to know, but it did not fit in the amp (even though the socket is labeled _6080_





  Quote:


 5998A - low gain in straight bottle. Plate construction like 6AS7. nothing special. 
 

I got a pair of NOS GE 5998A's with the amp, and I must admit I really like them. Slightly forward vocals and not the widest soundstage, but overall a very clear/clean/crisp sound.

  Quote:


 5998 - medium gain at 5, full-bodied sound, same current load as 6AS7 
 

Agreed, very nice. Has some excellent low-down control and texture too.

  Quote:


 6AS7G - low gain, the standard tube for most, plentiful 
 

Have not tried any yet. Unfortunately _Skylab_ has me chasing down ghosts - I am trying to find a NOS pair of GEC/Marconi brown-based tubes to pop my 6AS7G cherry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I second the comment that it also depends a lot on the other tubes in the complement. I found that rolling the 6922/6DJ8 preamp tube yielded a more significant impact.


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## glitch39

you mean a brown base 6as7g like this?


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## scootermafia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_4X150A/ 7034/ CV2519 run VERY conservatively in the Extreme for 2.3 watts per channel.

 Heater voltage 6V 
 Heater current 2.6A 
 Max negative control grid voltage -250V 
 Max input control grid 2W 
 Max heater/cathode voltage +/-150V 
 Max anode core temperature 250C 
 Max anode seal temperature 200C 
 Max base seal temperature 175C 
 Max altitude 10,000 feet 
 Min cathode heating time 30 secs 

 Class AB audio 
 Max anode voltage 2kV 
 Max anode dissipation 250W 
 Max anode input 500W 
 Max anode current 250mA 
 Max screen voltage 400V 
 Max screen dissipation 12W 























_

 

OH GOD WHAT IS IT


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## Maxvla

Ha that thing looks like a commercial jet engine.


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Personally, unless you need more gain I like the 6AS7G as well as any tube in this series._

 

I agree with this. I do think the Tung-Sol 6AS7G's sound a little better than the RCA's, and I think the GEC brown-base UK ones sound a little better still, but I don't think the differences are so huge that they are worth dealing with unless you are a psychotic tube collector...like me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xenithon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Unfortunately Skylab has me chasing down ghosts - I am trying to find a NOS pair of GEC/Marconi brown-based tubes to pop my 6AS7G cherry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_

 

HA! And yeah, this is my favorite of all of these tube types, no doubt.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you mean a brown base 6as7g like this?





_

 

YEP - that is the one. Has a slightly different plate structure than your typical US made 6AS7G. 

*To the OP:* There is also the 6AS7GA, and 6AS7GYB. The GA is a straight-bottle 6AS7G, with black base; the GYB has a brown base. AFAIK, both were only made by GE.


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## xenithon

Skylab - should you ever come across any NOS pairs of those I beg of you to alert me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . I've been looking out for a few months now; there is one on eBay but only one (need a pair) and the seller hasn't got any others


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## Skylab

There was a guy in the UK selling a whole bunch of these NOS for a while - but he must have sold out, since he doesn't seem to offer them now, although he has lots of other tubes for sale still. Yes, I will let you know if I see more of them for sale.


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## Gvvt

scootermafia,

 it looks to me like a space heater. One will take care of a small room - two for larger spaces (above 850 sq. feet). Order now, and you can get a hand-made Amish wooden mantel / case.


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## PaulyT

I read somewhere (google search) that all 5998 tubes are made by Tung-Sol, even if branded differently. Can anyone verify this? These are hard to find for sale... anyone know of a good source?


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## Skylab

It's true. Only Tung-Sol made the 5998. You see them branded Chatham (which was bought by Tung-Sol), and IBM, and of course the most famous branding was the Western Electric 421a, but even these are 100% identical to the Tung-Sol 5998. 

 GE did make a "5998A", but this is a different tube. It has a plate structure more like a 6AS7 than the 5998, and is in a straight-bottle. They also sound nowhere near as good as the TS 5998.


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## PaulyT

What about a Chatham 6AS7G? (JAN-CAHG-6AS7G) Is this the same thing as the 5998, or a near equivalent? I found one of these (used) that's cheap, trying to decide whether to grab it...


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## Skylab

No, the Chatham 6AS7G is...well..a 6AS7G 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It's actually a VERY nice tube, the JAN-Chatham 6AS7G. This is what I am using right this minute in my DV337. Very nice. 

 Also, the 5998, while generally usable in 6AS7G designs, is NOT identical to the 6AS7G. It has significantly higher transconductance than the 6AS7G. It works fine in the Darkvoice and Singlepower amps that use the 6AS7G, but the tubes are not 100% identical and the 5998 may not work perfectly in every application calling for a 6AS7.


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## PaulyT

Well, obviously I'm thinking about this for my Jade - which does call for a 6AS7G. Ok, sounds like I should get this Chatham 6AS7G, it's cheap enough I can afford to try it out while I'm looking for something "better"...


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## Skylab

Yep, that is a nice tube. Go for it!


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 6080W is about the same as the 6080 just a different manufacturing era .... there is the 6080WA /B /C. 

 The 2399 is a better quality 6AS7G with tighter section matching and apparently the ability to handle higher plate current. This tube in the pic has the plates that look like the 5998 plates .... which makes sense since most 5998s were made by TS and this example is a TS 2399. This tube is possibly almost identical to some of the 6AS7s with the 5998 plates. But, I think this tube sounds the same as all my other TS 6AS7s. Personally, unless you need more gain I like the 6AS7G as well as any tube in this series.




_

 

The W in the 6080W series means Militerized/Rggedized. If you compare the 6080 and the 6080W and the 6080WB, they are progressively more overbuilt. The 6080WB is supposed to withstand up to 500G's or some nonsense. It looks like a Tank, and in at least my opinion sounds like one also. Was not my favorite.

 .


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, the Chatham 6AS7G is...well..a 6AS7G 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's actually a VERY nice tube, the JAN-Chatham 6AS7G. This is what I am using right this minute in my DV337SE. Very nice. 

 Also, the 5998, while generally usable in 6AS7G designs, is NOT identical to the 6AS7G. It has significantly higher transconductance than the 6AS7G. It works fine in the Darkvoice and Singlepower amps that use the 6AS7G, but the tubes are not 100% identical and the 5998 may not work perfectly in every application calling for a 6AS7._

 

Hi,
 You have the 337 and the 337SE? Can you compare and contrast them? Do you have a PIC of the inside of your 337SE? 

 Les


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## Happy Camper

The physical weight difference between the standard RCA standard and Tung Sol WB 6080 is very noticeable. The WBs are monsters.


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## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The W in the 6080W series means Militerized/Rggedized. If you compare the 6080 and the 6080W and the 6080WB, they are progressively more overbuilt. The 6080WB is supposed to withstand up to 500G's or some nonsense. It looks like a Tank, and in at least my opinion sounds like one also. Was not my favorite.

 ._

 

I am well aware of what the W means. But, the tube is the same. All the 6080s came off the same assembly line. After production these tubes were subjected to various tests and if the tubes passed the tests then the tubes were accepted by the military. They were tested in lots and if the lot passed the tubes were accepted for 30 days until the next lot was tested and so on. 

 The same tubes sold to consumers kept the standard 6080 designation as they were not subjected to the W testing specifications. But, to make a valid comparison you need to compare tubes from the same production era.

 I think the 6080 you are referring to was the Bendix which was the most overbuilt tube I know of; although the Bendix 6900 is close. Raytheon was probably the largest supplier of the 6080WA/WB.

 The link below gives the VERY specific testing standards for the 6080WB ....


http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/f...8/6/6080WB.pdf


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The physical weight difference between the standard RCA standard and Tung Sol WB 6080 is very noticeable. The WBs are monsters._

 

Took me a few minutes to find this:

 Description 
 The Bendix 6080WB is finest 6080/6AS7 type ever made. It is constructed with Titanium support rods, gold grids, milled ceramic spacers, milled ceramic insulators, and Nonex high temp, high strength glass. Designed to withstand 500 G's peak, and 300 G's continuous. These tubes are from NOS original cold war stocks. They were replacements for aerospace applications including guided missle systems of the day. Sonically they exhibit very tight and controlled bass response, excellent precision, beautiful inner detail, and wide soundstage. These are my favorite tubes of all time for output stages.

 These are not my words, I got them off an Audiogon Post

 I liked the Looks of them, but the sound was not for me so I sold mine.

 .


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,
 You have the 337 and the 337SE? Can you compare and contrast them? Do you have a PIC of the inside of your 337SE? 

 Les_

 

Sorry Les, it was a typo/brain fart. I have the original 337, and a 336SE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also have a pair of Bendix 6080WB, but I was less than impressed with their sound as well. Fortunately I "only" paid $75/pair for mine, NOS. I have seen some people ask $300/pair for these, which IMO is insane.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry Les, it was a typo/brain fart. I have the original 337, and a 336SE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also have a pair of Bendix 6080WB, but I was less than impressed with their sound as well. Fortunately I "only" paid $75/pair for mine, NOS. I have seen some people ask $300/pair for these, which IMO is insane._

 

Hi Sky,
 RATS, was hoping you had got a 337SE since you had the 337. I imagine there's not tons of difference in the SQ. But then the other side of me wants there to be some Justification for the $$$ difference.
 I actually liked the Cheap no-name 6080s that came free with the 337SE rather than the WB's. The WB's seemed a little dark and muddled to me. Very quiet though. Beautiful build on the DV's though.

 Les


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## Happy Camper

Is the 7se a beefed up power supply? If so, always buy as much power supply as you can afford. 

 With a TS 2c51 it was muddy. A WE put it into the lush range. They need a bright gain tube. 

 PM if anyone is willing to come off a pr of TS NOS 5998s.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the 7se a beefed up power supply? If so, always buy as much power supply as you can afford. 

 With a TS 2c51 it was muddy. A WE put it into the lush range. They need a bright gain tube. 

 PM if anyone is willing to come off a pr of TS NOS 5998s._

 

Heh! I don' think that AMP is wanting in the Power Supply dept!!! Have you seen those two monstrous Black lumps on top of it? That AMP is the definition of Overbuilt!!

 You might want to try Jim at:

Vaccum Tubes INC

 He has outstanding Prices on Tubes. Knows his stuff. I bought a set of TS 5998's from Him($25 ea) and all those NIB EF80 Bugle BOYZ. The EF80 boxes had never been opened and they were $5 each!! All tested like 120% on a Triplett 3444.

 .


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry Les, it was a typo/brain fart. I have the original 337, and a 336SE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also have a pair of Bendix 6080WB, but I was less than impressed with their sound as well. Fortunately I "only" paid $75/pair for mine, NOS. I have seen some people ask $300/pair for these, which IMO is insane._

 

I hate to admit this. But the WB's I got were Tung Sols, and were Identical to the Bendix. I saw a "BOX" of 6080's on Ebay from a guy with one of those threatening auctions saying what he would do to you if you didn't follow all HIS rules. Well, I aske dfor PIX of the Tubes. Saw the WB's and like 14 other pretty nice 6080's of various types.

 Took a chance figuring I could get some bux for the WB's if I didn't like them. Bought the whole shebang with free shipping for $9.99.

 All tested 100% or better. Listened to the WB's, put em up for sale and sold em' for $75 to a guy who loves them. 

 Everybody's happy in the end. Me, the auction guy, and the guy who got the WB's. 

 And I still have a box of various nice 6080's in case of a Nuclear Strike in South FL!!

 .


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## PaulyT

Ok, I think I have a lead on a Tung-Sol NOS 5998. Are there variants on this that I should look for, or avoid?


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## Skylab

There are two slight variants - a top getter and a bottom getter. The picture from this EBay auction is great because there is one of each - top getter on right, bottom getter on left.

Pair of Tung-sol 5998/421A Tubes *2 - eBay (item 390033166335 end time Mar-24-09 18:52:57 PDT)

 I have some of each and there is no sonic difference that I can tell.

 Otherwise, there are no variants.


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## Oskari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ECC230 - european 6AS7G equivalent. haven't seen one in person_

 

The elusive ECC230. It is difficult to find even photos online but John Hupse has one (Philips). Note the AJ type code and the R factory code; i.e., according to the code lists, 6080, Mullard/Mitcham, which is exactly what The National Valve Museum shows us. ECC230 (Mullard) and 6080 are listed as equivalents in the Vademecum.

 The 1958 Philips ECC230 datasheet tells us that "this type is interchangeable with type 6080" while the 1960 and 1968 datasheets just call the tube 6080. It would seem that ECC230 was Philips-speak for 6080 and that they soon reverted to 6080.

 Has anybody seen ECC230s other than the Philips/Mullard 6080 kind?


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are two slight variants - a top getter and a bottom getter. The picture from this EBay auction is great because there is one of each - top getter on right, bottom getter on left.

Pair of Tung-sol 5998/421A Tubes *2 - eBay (item 390033166335 end time Mar-24-09 18:52:57 PDT)

 I have some of each and there is no sonic difference that I can tell.

 Otherwise, there are no variants._

 

Missed One!

 Side Getter/Top Getter Combo!

TS 5998
TS 5998


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## Skylab

Funny you should mention that - I discovered I have a pair like this when I was looking at my 5998's yesterday. A but unusual it seems, but there they are!


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Funny you should mention that - I discovered I have a pair like this when I was looking at my 5998's yesterday. A but unusual it seems, but there they are!_

 

Strange, all of mine are like these. some are JAN white lettering, but they look just like these.

 .


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## les_garten

Just found some more like mine

02 Tube 5998 Tungsol , tested good . - eBay (item 260374546757 end time Mar-16-09 09:00:00 PDT)

02 Tube 5998 Tungsol , NOS , tested good . - eBay (item 260374549793 end time Mar-16-09 09:04:00 PDT)

 .


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## Skylab

Yep - there seem to be quite a few like that. I like the bottom (only) getter best in terms of looks, but I think they all sound the same.


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## glitch39

*i've listened to both O and D getters in both side and bottom locations. 

 No difference in sound.*


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## Oskari

Skylab, regarding the Ultron 6AS7G that you have sometimes written about (your photo), don't you think that they might be Svetlana-made? This Ultron was a house brand of Bürklin; they did not make the tubes themselves.


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## Skylab

I am almost certain that they were Svetlanas, in spite of the fact they were labeled "Made In Germany". Some people love the Svetlanas, but I have never really dug them.

 I have a pair of 6AS7G's that say "Amperex - Made in Holland", and are in Amperex boxes. Pretty sure they are Svetlanas too.

 And I have seen Telefunken branded 6AS7G's that some poor SOB paid $100 for that were definitely Svetlanas.


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## Oskari

Incidentally, I just received my first Svetlanas. First impression is that the 6N13S aka 6H13C betters at least many a shrill-sounding 6080 (in DV336SE). These were more like $9 each including p&p. No fancy branding, just =C=.


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## Skylab

I think the winged C could be considered fancy branding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have never heard a 6080 that I liked much, so your post does not surprise me at all.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the winged C could be considered fancy branding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have never heard a 6080 that I liked much, so your post does not surprise me at all._

 

All of the 6080's I tried sounded Flat, dark , and laidback. The epitome of un-exciting.

 .


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All of the 6080's I tried sounded Flat, dark , and laidback. The epitome of un-exciting.

 ._

 

Ditto. I tried the Mullards, too - they were better than the US 6080's, but still an RCA 6AS7G blows them away.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ditto. I tried the Mullards, too - they were better than the US 6080's, but still an RCA 6AS7G blows them away._

 

I like the RCA 6AS7Gs. I also like the TS 5998s. I'm going to go back to the RCAs for a while, but I think it is possible I like them more than the 5998s.. Both are Great though. I have never had those GECs.

 Les


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## Skylab

I'm using the GEC's in my SP Extreme, but I am using Tung-Sol black-plate 6AS7G's in my DV 337 right now. I like 5998's, but sometimes I think I like 6AS7G's better. I guess maybe it depends on my mood


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using the GEC's in my SP Extreme, but I am using Tung-Sol black-plate 6AS7G's in my DV 337 right now. I like 5998's, but sometimes I think I like 6AS7G's better. I guess maybe it depends on my mood 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Any idea why new tubes HUM so much in the 337? Have you ever noticed that in any other amp?

 .


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## Oskari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the winged C could be considered fancy branding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Do you also consider this 2-pack fancy packaging?


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## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any idea why new tubes HUM so much in the 337? Have you ever noticed that in any other amp?

 ._

 

It is only the 6SJ7's that hum so badly when new. And it is the tube, not the amp. I had another amp that used 6SJ7's, and same exact thing - up to 30 hours of break in was required on new tubes before they would quiet down. It's just that type of tube that seems to have that problem.

 When I put new 6AS7's in the 337, they are silent within 10 seconds.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is only the 6SJ7's that hum so badly when new. And it is the tube, not the amp. I had another amp that used 6SJ7's, and same exact thing - up to 30 hours of break in was required on new tubes before they would quiet down. It's just that type of tube that seems to have that problem.

 When I put new 6AS7's in the 337, they are silent within 10 seconds._

 

I'll check that, but the Tubes HUM in my 337SE which uses EF80's.. I'll check to see if it's the input, the output or both that hum. 

 .


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## Skylab

The EF80 hums just like the 6SJ7. It is essentially the same tube, but in a 9-pin mini versus octal base. Both are sharp-cutoff pentodes, and both hummed in my 337 (I have a socket adaptor for using the EF80 in the 337).


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The EF80 hums just like the 6SJ7. It is essentially the same tube, but in a 9-pin mini versus octal base. Both are sharp-cutoff pentodes, and both hummed in my 337 (I have a socket adaptor for using the EF80 in the 337)._

 

I guess it's a family trait, not an AMP trait.

 .


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## Skylab

It is disconcerting - the things hum like CRAZY for the first 10-12 hours or so. But they do always quiet down - one just has to exercise a lot of patience


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## Oskari

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ditto. I tried the Mullards, too - they were better than the US 6080's, but still an RCA 6AS7G blows them away._

 

I haven't heard Captain Mullard's entry but I could have said the same thing about a GEC 6080WA.

 The grey-plate RCA 6AS7G is good stuff, though, and pairs well with the sprightly Tfk E88CC in the DAC. Add one 6SN7GT, a richer one rather than a leaner one, into the mix, and I'm quite happy.

 Still burning in the Sveta.


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## oldwine

As i have ordered a new amp, which also use the 6AS7G tubes, may i know which tube are suitable for chamber musics?? it means having a good mid-reproduction as well as the bass, thanks


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oldwine* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As i have ordered a new amp, which also use the 6AS7G tubes, may i know which tube are suitable for chamber musics?? it means having a good mid-reproduction as well as the bass, thanks_

 

The only way to know for sure is to get some of each and listen.

 However,
 You can't go wrong with these:

 1) RCA 6AS7G Black Plate or JAN-CRC 6AS7G
 2) Tung Sol 5998

 The RCAs will be the cheapest, just start watching Fleabay or call Jim @ vacuumtubesinc.com who is Fast and Cheap... Just like my first Wife...

 .


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## Happy Camper

Wow, the TS 5998s sure open up the soundstage compared to the 6080s. Nicer bass too. Thanks guys.

 Edit: Why did I wait so long to get some of these? What a difference to the 6080s.


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## PaulyT

Is GE ever a rebrand of RCA? I ordered an RCA black-plate 6AS7G (from tubeworld.com, which otherwise seems to be pretty decent), but got instead one marked as GE (below). Is this a mistake on their part, or are they the same manufacture as RCA at least in some cases? Anybody know?


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## PaulyT

Ok, according to Brendan of tubeworld, it is indeed a rebrand, that RCA was the only maker of the clear top 6AS7G.


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## Skylab

I am also pretty sure it's a rebrand as well, depending on how you look at it - GE owned RCA through most of it's corporate history.

 But it is simply false that RCA was the only maker of a "clear top" (meaning bottom getter) 6AS7G. Tung-Sol also made them, and in the UK so did GEC.


----------



## ygm

Has anyone compared RCA 6AS7G to 6AS7GA ?

 Thanks in advance.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Got lucky and scored a GEC A1834. Have a pair of _Mullard CV 2984_ coming too, so I should be good for a while? Who knows until the next tube?


----------



## Skylab

Once you get the GEC tube, your search for 6AS7-type tubes will be over


----------



## BIG POPPA

Hey Rob, that is not entirely true. I listened to it at the last Seattle secret meet and it made it possible to listen to Kingstyles Woodied recabled DT770's. Very lush sounding tube. Very nice. What 6as7 would be the opposite? One that would have a kick in the pants sound, something that would rock out with The Rolling Stones?


----------



## tosehee

a lot of good info here. Subscribed.


----------



## tosehee

There seems like a RCA with metal base and black plate. 

 Are these same in terms of performance?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Rob, that is not entirely true. I listened to it at the last Seattle secret meet and it made it possible to listen to Kingstyles Woodied recabled DT770's. Very lush sounding tube. Very nice. What 6as7 would be the opposite? One that would have a kick in the pants sound, something that would rock out with The Rolling Stones?_

 

To me, that's the 5998


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Bought a NOS 6as7g froma local shop; it makes a loud popping noise in the first 20 minutes or so but seems to be working fine otherwise. I don't have a tester, but does this mean I got a dud?

 amp is a wa2; one of the 6as7g tubes came to me broken so I bought another unmatched nos rca tube (above). Also have one 5998 tube that's good and another with broken glass in it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm off to a bad start lol, should I just sell the onesies I've got and start over?


----------



## PaulyT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.Sneis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bought a NOS 6as7g froma local shop; it makes a loud popping noise in the first 20 minutes or so but seems to be working fine otherwise. I don't have a tester, but does this mean I got a dud?_

 

I don't think so. My Chatham 6AS7G makes a lot of noise like this - microphonics - for the first few minutes, but otherwise sounds terrific. No biggie. And some tubes do get bits of loose glass in them, also doesn't necessarily mean it's a dud, but you should check for obvious damage to the structure.


----------



## Skylab

A tiny bit of glass on the INSIDE of the tube is not generally a problem. But a LOUD popping noise is. A slight "pinging" sort of sound is indeed microphonics, and is OK as long as it doesn't bother you too much.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Just scored a Bendix 6080WB Now I may stop collecting for a minute


----------



## Skylab

That's a pretty nice tube! Do you like it?


----------



## glitch39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ygm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone compared RCA 6AS7G to 6AS7GA ?

 Thanks in advance._

 

They are rated identical. GA is a straight bottle style. I have lots of both and they sound the same. It's a matter of taste IMO (if you like the coke style bottle and if your chassis can accomodate the larger size)


----------



## glitch39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There seems like a RCA with metal base and black plate._

 

6AS7G tube with metal base? I have not seen one yet. They are available on the 6080 and 6AS7GA. And I thought I have gone through every brand out there... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 any pics?


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a pretty nice tube! Do you like it?_

 

I will find out in a few days. At least this tube is shipping CONUS. I am still waiting for the GEC. It is going to be Christmas for a while with all the tubes I have coming.


----------



## Didege

Did someone have experienced or heard about the GEC CV 2523 ? What's the difference with the A 1834 ?


----------



## Didege

Sorry, another question : one write good things about the Tungsol 5998. And what about the "normal" 6AS7G ?


----------



## Skylab

You mean the Tung-Sol 6AS7G? I find them to be excellent, but they are not as good as the 5998.


----------



## Didege

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You mean the Tung-Sol 6AS7G? I find them to be excellent, but they are not as good as the 5998._

 

Yes, that's what i meant, thank you.
 Would you recommand it to fit with my Audiotailor Jade if i want a smooth but detailed and 3D sound while listening to ECM jazz ? And wich 12AX7 would you choose to "mate" well ? 
 Thanks in advance for your wise advice !


----------



## Skylab

Detailed and 3D sound will be helped a lot by a Mullard CV4004 for the 12AX7 - but expect to pay $100 for this tube. A second place here would be a black-plate Sylvania 5751 (still not cheap, but cheaper than a CV4004).

 As for the power tube, try to get a 5998, but if you can't, a Tung-Sol or Chatham 6AS7G is a good choice. But even the RCA 6AS7G, which is easy to get and very cheap, is a good sounding tube.


----------



## Didege

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Detailed and 3D sound will be helped a lot by a Mullard CV4004 for the 12AX7 - but expect to pay $100 for this tube. A second place here would be a black-plate Sylvania 5751 (still not cheap, but cheaper than a CV4004).

 As for the power tube, try to get a 5998, but if you can't, a Tung-Sol or Chatham 6AS7G is a good choice. But even the RCA 6AS7G, which is easy to get and very cheap, is a good sounding tube._

 

Waouw CV 4004 ... isn't it like shooting the moon? ... but i'll try...
 I have a Chatham and it gives me a lot of pleasure.
 You've written that all 5998 are in fact Tung-Sol; so if i find a National Union, shoud i go for it ? What would be a reasonable price for it ?


----------



## Skylab

I'd be shocked if you find a National Union branded 5998 - but as long as it is the "ST"/coke bottle shaped 5998, that is Tung-Sol made for sure. I have seen them branded Chatham, IBM, and of course Western Electric


----------



## rosgr63

Who makes the ITT branded 6080WB?


----------



## Skylab

No idea on that.


----------



## Didege

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd be shocked if you find a National Union branded 5998 - but as long as it is the "ST"/coke bottle shaped 5998, that is Tung-Sol made for sure. I have seen them branded Chatham, IBM, and of course Western Electric 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry, my mistake : it's the 5751 that is branded National (probably a RCA ?)
 I have the opportunity to buy a 5998 branded Tung Sol and CTL (in place of JAN or JHS) Do you know what it means and worth it 60$ (!) ?


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Didege* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, my mistake : it's the 5751 that is branded National (probably a RCA ?)
 I have the opportunity to buy a 5998 branded Tung Sol and CTL (in place of JAN or JHS) Do you know what it means and worth it 60$ (!) ?_

 

Can you share your source for TS 5998 that sells for $60? ( assuming it's pair price).

 I'd like to stock a few more.


----------



## Didege

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tosehee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you share your source for TS 5998 that sells for $60? ( assuming it's pair price).

 I'd like to stock a few more._

 

This is a site in Turkey www.nostube.com, send an email to Koray Kural to ask for what you want because there is only a little part of their stock on the web !
 I was asking about the price of this particular 5998 because i've just bought 3 of them on another turkish site (Adisa Service und Entwicklungs AG) for 3 $ each ! Turkey seems to become the place to be for tube rolling , isn't it ?


----------



## Didege

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Didege* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a site in Turkey www.nostube.com, send an email to Koray Kural to ask for what you want because there is only a little part of their stock on the web !
 I was asking about the price of this particular 5998 because i've just bought 3 of them on another turkish site (Adisa Service und Entwicklungs AG) for 3 $ each ! Turkey seems to become the place to be for tube rolling , isn't it ?_

 

*[size=medium]SORRY both adresses wrong !!![/size]*




 [size=medium]The good ones :
 [/size]
 1/ Nos Tube Store
 2/www.adisa.com.tr


----------



## tosehee

Thanks for the links.


----------



## Didege

I've received three "new" 5998. Tough Skylab said that they're all made by Tung Sol, i didn't expect them to be so different :

 - the United Electron has bottom halo and D getters
 - the Chatham has top halo and the getters are quite hides but i think they're D or square
 - the Tung Sol is the more surprising ; it has two halos and two O getters : one on the top and the other a round on the bottom side.

 What are those configurations supposed to improve in sound ? 
 I've listened to the Tung Sol with National badged 5751 an it was great : i now really like the "SS" output, the guitar intro on IQ's "Frequency" is less harsh (less distorted in fact than with my Amperex BB + AS7G Chatham); very nice, deep but detailed basses ...

 I have a doubt on the United : though it has bottom halo, i see a kind of another one (a sort of inside silver shadow) on the bottom. I haven't still dared to fix it on the amp. Have you an opinion about that?


----------



## dannie01

Where's the pics, Didege?


----------



## Skylab

I have Tung-Sol 5998's with halo getters, and with bottom D getters. I've not been able to discern any difference in sound.


----------



## rosgr63

skylab any chance for a couple of photos please showing the two types?

 ADD Which ones do you prefer the Tung-Sol 5998 or the Bendix 6080?


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_skylab any chance for a couple of photos please showing the two types?_

 

I'm not much of a photographer...


----------



## dannie01

But please, Skylab, if you could answer my question. What is the differ between the squared plate and rounded plate of a Tung Sol 6F8G, thanks.


----------



## rosgr63

Any links to web photos?
 Tung-Sol 5998 0r Bendix 6080?
 Thanks


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dannie01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But please, Skylab, if you could answer my question. What is the differ between the squared plate and rounded plate of a Tung Sol 6F8G, thanks._

 

You mean in terms of sound? The round plates are a little lusher, and have a little better detail and a little more bass. IMO.


----------



## dannie01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You mean in terms of sound? The round plates are a little lusher, and have a little better detail and a little more bass. IMO._

 

Yeah, in terms of sound, that's what I want to know, thanks Skylab. Seems I need to grab a pair of round plates.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rosgr63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any links to web photos?
 Tung-Sol 5998 0r Bendix 6080?
 Thanks_

 

Good idea!


 Dual getter:






 Halo getter only:






 I couldn't find a pic of the bottom-getter only...will keep looking...


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks a lot Skylab you bailed me out again!


----------



## rosgr63

What's the difference between the 6080WB and 6080WC tubes?


----------



## rosgr63

Has anybody used the Osram 6AS7G?
 How do they sound like?


----------



## Skylab

Never seen one! Do you have a pic?


----------



## rosgr63

skylab, I have the photo http://files.me.com/rosgr63/b59oy0


----------



## Skylab

Wow those look nice - like the GEC, except with a black base.


----------



## dannie01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow those look nice - like the GEC, except with a black base._

 

Yeah, almost look the same except the GEC with brown base.


----------



## rosgr63

There is another variant of the Osram tube with a brown base and black label.


----------



## rosgr63

I tried a pair of WE421A's and must say to me they sound better than the TS 5998's.


----------



## les_garten

Might have something to do with how much you paid for them?


----------



## Skylab

It's hard for me to imagine how they could be very different sounding - they are unquestionably the same tube.  But maybe your 421A's are just in better condition than your 5998's are/were.  That could certainly make a difference.


----------



## rosgr63

Sarcastic again Les, well done!!!


----------



## dBs

I wouldn't say sarcastic. It sounded pretty matter-of-fact to me =P


----------



## rosgr63

I find my WE421A's having smoother highs than my TS 5998's. My TS 5998's  have been tested, they have good readings, and matched sections.
  BTW I didn't pay that much for my WE's!


----------



## les_garten

Heh!  Sarcasm, Tongue-in-cheek, and some modicum of truth.  
   
  It'd difficult to objectively analyze things that have a huge disparity in price, and are "possibly" identical. 
   
  The 421a's are pretty tubes, they just have that 40's and 50's kinda look to them.  The Logo that is.
   
  Doesn't matter how objective one is, the cost and pride of ownership of pristine 421a's would tend to color a lot of people's assessment. 
   
  Also was mentioned, individual tube performance, individual variations,  and matching make differences as well.


----------



## rosgr63

I am afraid you got it wrong Les.
  I am not proud of my WE421a's. I like my other tubes as much.
  I just said to my ears with my equipment they sound better than my TS 5998's.
  And then again a pair of Osram 6AS7G's might sound better than the WE421's!


----------



## pytter

I am confused rosgr63 - I am pretty sure the WE421a's are relabeled 5998's - so how can they sound different?


----------



## rosgr63

I have a few TS5998's (Tested, matched pairs and triplets with matched sections) and a couple of WE421A's.
  I can confirm that they don't look the same only the plates look similar. In my system the WE421A's sound better than the TS5998's but not as good as the Osram 6AS7G.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have a few TS5998's (Tested, matched pairs and triplets with matched sections) and a couple of WE421A's.
> I can confirm that they don't look the same only the plates look similar. In my system the WE421A's sound better than the TS5998's but not as good as the Osram 6AS7G.


 

 I have a pair TS 5998's received from a tube seller recently, they are one taller than the other. But have checked with the structure seems indentical. And I can't tell they sound any different or it's not noticable to my ear. Any advise, my friend?


----------



## rosgr63

Dannie,
  I've seen your new amp with the 6080's it looks really nice, I love it.
  I suggest Bendix 6080's will take you to the top of the 6080's.
  If you want a more musical sound I'll go for GEC's or Osram 6AS7G's.
  Next are the TS5998's.
  Also change your drivers to TS 6SN7's Black Glass Round Plates or Brimar 6SN7GTY's.
  If you need help to source any Osrams 6AS7G's or TS or Brimar 6SN7's send me a PM.
   
  I recently bought a pair of TS5998's and they were like yours and developed a terrible hum after a couple of hours.
  I returned them back, ebay was very supportive and got a refund.


----------



## dannie01

Thanks my friend and the WA22 indeed a very good sounding amp. I have a pair GEC/ Philips ECG (stock) 6080 and TS 5998 for power by far.The TS definately can deliver more power than the 6080. And I'm always drooling about the GEC or Osram 6AS7 but with no luck. For the TS 6SN7GT, I can only stay away from, it's too much for me in the moment after the WA22 and the tubes recently bought. I still have a EML 5U4G rectifier waiting to ship by Jack.
   
  BTW, with luck the pair of TS5998's received is dead silent


----------



## rosgr63

Dannie I agree they are expensive tubes but worth budgeting for in the long term.
  Be careful you don't become a 6SN7 tube addict (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts)!


----------



## dannie01

Haha, can't resist to be the one but I need sometime to recover my wallet's wound.


----------



## setamp

RCA 6as7g's are available for ~ $30/pair while the best I can find the 5998's for is $90/pair.  Is it worth 3x the price for the 5998's for a dv337?

 Any tips on where to find a pair of TS mesh plate 6sj7gt's?

 Thanks.


----------



## Skylab

You can get 5998's for $80/pair here: www.vacuumtubes.net - that's about the best you are going to do these days.  I think they are worth it.
   
  You might ask them about the mesh TS 6SJ7GT's as well.


----------



## setamp

Actually, that is where I was quoted $90/pair.

 They have no mesh plate  6SJ7GT's.  I'll continue my search............   Thank you.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





setamp said:


> Actually, that is where I was quoted $90/pair.
> 
> They have no mesh plate  6SJ7GT's.  I'll continue my search............   Thank you.


 

 Try this guy, very reasonable. Haven't checked or bought anything from him recently.
   
http://www.vacuumtubesinc.com/


----------



## setamp

Thanks Les.  No luck there.  I'm going to pick up the 5998's and keep digging for the Tung Sol mesh plates.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





setamp said:


> Thanks Les.  No luck there.  I'm going to pick up the 5998's and keep digging for the Tung Sol mesh plates.


 

 You called?  He does not list a lot of stuff on his website.


----------



## setamp

Yes, I called.  Great guy.

 Edit.  I was able to buy the tubes from a very kind Head-fi member.


----------



## tdogzthmn

I would like to know which of the 6AS7 tube variants works best with rock.


----------



## rosgr63

Have a listen to Bendix 6080 if you can.


----------



## Skylab

For me, that would for sure be the 5998.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> I would like to know which of the 6AS7 tube variants works best with rock.


 

 5998's would be my pick.
   
  6AS7G's are nice sounding but a little smoother, softer, and less bass impact.
   
  IMO, the 6080's are veiled and muddy and don't do anything well, even the Bendix's.  Some like them though as referenced above.


----------



## hodgjy

I have the 5998, and it's a great tube for rock.  However, I'm starting to think the RCA 6AS7G might be my current favorite.  While it doesn't have quite the the precision or the bass thump as the 5998, to my humble ears it is a little warmer and a little more musical.  Really does some magic to old Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and Rolling Stone recordings (which tend to be strident at times).

  
  Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> I would like to know which of the 6AS7 tube variants works best with rock.


----------



## tdogzthmn

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> I have the 5998, and it's a great tube for rock.  However, I'm starting to think the RCA 6AS7G might be my current favorite.  While it doesn't have quite the the precision or the bass thump as the 5998, to my humble ears it is a little warmer and a little more musical.  Really does some magic to old Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and Rolling Stone recordings (which tend to be strident at times).


 
   
  I do have an RCA black plate 6AS7G which I have been using as my main power tube and a GE 12AU7 for the preamp.  Both are tubes I randomly bought off ebay but so far I am very pleased with how they sound.  I will try to find a place that sells the 5998, they seem hard to come by on ebay.


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> I do have an RCA black plate 6AS7G which I have been using as my main power tube and a GE 12AU7 for the preamp.  Both are tubes I randomly bought off ebay but so far I am very pleased with how they sound.


 
   
   
  I go back and forth as well.  I really like the 6AS7s for voice.


----------



## tdogzthmn

Has anyone heard a GE 6AS7G 6AS7 blackplate with dual getters?  I got one off ebay to try against my RCA.


----------



## JohnBal

Has anyone compared the 2399 Tungsol/Chatham to a 5998 Tungsol. I recently ordered a Tungsol 5998 for my Darkvoice 336i from a retailer on the net who shall remain nameless. This was my first order from them. I corresponded via e-mail and then when I orederd, I actually called and spoke to a person (co-owner?) and we had a nice chat and confirmed he would send out a Tungsol/Chatham 5998. When the tube arrived, the tube was labeled 2399 and not 5998. Has anyone listened to both of these tubes? Are they the same sonicly? I have listened and I don't feel it is anything spectacular. I like my Bendix 6080WB better. Much more detail and HF extension. Not what I expected from a 5998, which from what I understand is quite detailed with nice frequency entension. I wanted one as an alternative to my Bendix. Now, if the 2399 and 5998 are the same tube, I guess I'll know I like the Bendix better in my system and not bother contacting the seller. But if they have different sound signatures, I'll approach the seller and ask why they shipped the 2399 instead.


----------



## Skylab

I have three 2399's, and they look exactly like my 5998's, and also sound just like them.  Since they all came from Tung-Sol, I am pretty sure they are the same tube, although why TS decided to change the number is beyond me.  There is almost no info on the 2399 available - it's not in the TDSL or the N7JP tube databases.  But I am pretty sure it's just a 5998.


----------



## rosgr63

I believe the 2399 has the same construction as the 5998 but it's electrically the same as the 6AS7G.
  The 5998 is not exactly the same as the 6AS7G.
  I have both but have not done any ABX tests.


----------



## JohnBal

Thanks for the info. I just wanted to verify that they do sound the same in other amps as I cannot compare it to an actual 5998 in my own. I appreciate your help. I have looked at pictures of the 5998, and from what I can see, they look the same.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I believe the 2399 has the same construction as the 5998 but it's electrically the same as the 6AS7G.
> The 5998 is not exactly the same as the 6AS7G.
> I have both but have not done any ABX tests.


 

 Well that would be good, since indeed the 5998 is not the same as the 6AS7G - because it draws just slightly less heater current than a 6AS7G (and of course has the same pin out) it can safely be used, but in some amps the bias may not work well, since the 5998 has about twice the transconductance of a 6AS7G.  So if the 2399 is indeed 5998 constuction and 6AS7G specs, that might make it a better fit for many 6AS7G amps.


----------



## hodgjy

I just bought a "5998" from the same retailer you are probably talking about.  They sent me a 2399.  I had a very nice email conversation with the co-owner (great guy) and he gave me the history of Tung-Sol and Chatham.  Tung-Sol owned Chatham and they sold tubes under different names and numbers, probably as the result of different markets.  We concluded together it was a lot like Chevy trucks and GMC trucks (in the United States).
   
  Rest assured, it's the same tube.
  
  Quote: 





johnbal said:


> Has anyone compared the 2399 Tungsol/Chatham to a 5998 Tungsol. I recently ordered a Tungsol 5998 for my Darkvoice 336i from a retailer on the net who shall remain nameless. This was my first order from them. I corresponded via e-mail and then when I orederd, I actually called and spoke to a person (co-owner?) and we had a nice chat and confirmed he would send out a Tungsol/Chatham 5998. When the tube arrived, the tube was labeled 2399 and not 5998. Has anyone listened to both of these tubes? Are they the same sonicly? I have listened and I don't feel it is anything spectacular. I like my Bendix 6080WB better. Much more detail and HF extension. Not what I expected from a 5998, which from what I understand is quite detailed with nice frequency entension. I wanted one as an alternative to my Bendix. Now, if the 2399 and 5998 are the same tube, I guess I'll know I like the Bendix better in my system and not bother contacting the seller. But if they have different sound signatures, I'll approach the seller and ask why they shipped the 2399 instead.


----------



## JohnBal

After digesting some of the information above, I am still not sure they are the same tube sound wise. I decided to contact the seller. The seller is a very easy person to communicate with as stated above. He decided that the 2399 was shipped in error due to an error that was made when the tube was boxed. Normally the 2399 sells for about 50% - 75% more that he sells the 5998 for, but he decided he would not have a problem with me just keeping the tube, or I could send it back to him for an exchange if I wanted. He said he just wants to make it right. I asked if he would have a problem with sending me a 5998 for regular price without paying the shipping charge. He said he would have no problem with that at all. In fact, he stated he'd get me his best 5998. So, I decided to order the Tungsol. Now I'll be able to compare the two in my amp anyway. I'll post my impressions when I get the 5998.
  Thank you guys for your help.


----------



## hodgjy

Maybe we are dealing with different vendors.  I'm not one to dispute you, or your vendor, but the vendor I talked to said they are the same tube.  I am inclined to believe him because I could not tell any difference in sound at all between them.  I guess there's a lot of information out there that's not fully agreed upon.  I guess that's bound to happen when we're dealing with tubes made 50 years ago that are no longer widely used except for hobbyists.
   
  But, I do thoroughly believe in all of the aspects of psyhoaccustics, to the point where we often think something sounds "different" or "better" because that's they way we think it should be.  So, in that regard, getting the true 5998 makes sense because that's what you want, and you should get it.


----------



## hodgjy

One thing I've noticed, and I'd like others to confirm if possible.
   
  When I use my 5998, my amp seems much cooler to the touch, including the siding and transformer housing, than when using other power tubes.
   
  Is this others' experience as well?


----------



## les_garten

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> One thing I've noticed, and I'd like others to confirm if possible.
> 
> When I use my 5998, my amp seems much cooler to the touch, including the siding and transformer housing, than when using other power tubes.
> 
> Is this others' experience as well?


 

 My 5998 runs cooler than the 6080's


----------



## hodgjy

Thanks for chiming in.  I was reading some spec sheets on the various tubes in the family, and it seems like the 5998 has some operating parameters that seem like it should run cooler than other tubes.


----------



## rosgr63

My 5998's run hotter than my 6AS7G or 6080.


----------



## Skylab

I wouldn't think there would be a tremendous difference, really.  The 5998 draws 2.4 amps - the 6AS7G draws 2.5 A.  I wouldn't think that the 0.1 amp difference would be noticeable, but it could be. 
   
  I haven't been using 5998's lately, but I confess I never really noticed if they ran warmer or cooler than 6AS7G's in my SP Extreme (my Extreme has been modded with a Electra-print transformer so that it isn't dangerous and can actually handle all the tube types the Extreme was originally spec'd to handle...)


----------



## hodgjy

I read some spec sheets, and they say the two tubes work differently in class A amplifiers.
   
*5998:*
  Class A Amplifier
 Plate Voltage ................................. 110 V
 Grid No. 1 Voltage Derived from
 Cathode Bias Resistor ....................... 105 Ω
 Amplification Factor .......................... 5.4
 Plate Resistance (approx) ..................... 350 Ω
  Transconductance .............................. 15.5K μ
 Plate Current ................................. 100 mA
   
*6AS7G:*
  Class A Amplifier
 Plate Voltage ................................. 135 V
 Grid No. 1 Voltage Derived from
 Cathode Bias Resistor ....................... 250 Ω
 Amplification Factor .......................... 2
 Plate Resistance (approx) ..................... 280 Ω
  Transconductance .............................. 7000 μ
 Plate Current ................................. 125 mA
  
  Sources:
  http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=5998
  http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=6as7g


----------



## hodgjy

I've only heard the bottom getter, and it's lovely.
  
  Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> Has anyone heard a GE 6AS7G 6AS7 blackplate with dual getters?  I got one off ebay to try against my RCA.


----------



## Skylab

The 5998 has twice the transconductance of the 6AS7G, and as such (given the slightly higher plate resistance and that most of the rest of the parameters are the same), the amplification factor is more than double.  Amplification factor (mu) is the product of transconductance and plate resistance.
   
  However, none of that should effect heat.  The tube is either on or off.  What effects heat is the current pull from the transformer, and the tubes are very close in that regard.


----------



## hodgjy

Muy interesante.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   I don't know then.  All I know is when I use the 5998, the amp as a whole, including the transformer housing, is noticeably cooler than when using a 6AS7G or 6H13C tube.  Don't know why.  It's just interesting.  I agree that it can't be from a 0.1 amp difference.  Something else must be going, perhaps the resistive properties of the metals themselves inside the tubes.


----------



## les_garten

My 6080WB ran about 350F and the 5998s run about 250F


----------



## hodgjy

I've done some heavy tube rolling and listening, and I'm ready to rank my favorite to least favorite flavors of the variety I've tried.
   
  1=most favorite
   
  1) RCA black plate 6AS7G.  Yep, this el cheapo is magic to my ears.  It doesn't have the precision, bass thump, or tempo of the 5998 or the 7236, but it is just wonderful.  It has beautiful tube bloom and the bottom line is it's just a very musical tube.  Warm and sweet, but under control.
   
  2) Chatham 6AS7G.  A wonderful tube.  Warm and sweet.  However, it's just a tad colder than the RCA with a little less tube bloom.  Still an excellent tube, and I will cherish it in my collection, but it doesn't have enough to best the RCA.
   
  3) Tung-Sol 5998.  Yep, while this is many people's favorite, it is my third favorite.  It is also an excellent tube.  It is precise, with good bass extension and rhythm.  Best all-around tube.  Jack of all trades, master of not all.  It has less tube bloom and harmoic distortion than the RCA.  It is a great all-around tube, but to my humble ears, the RCA just sounds more romantic and musical.  Don't get me wrong, I still use and love the 5998, but when I want to melt into my chair to some music, I think of the RCA first.
   
  4) Sylvania 7236.  This is a decent tube.  It is the most solid state sounding tube I've tried.  Good precision and rhythm.  Bass champion.  However, it is a little dry and sterile.  Good for metal, techno, and electronica.  Not so good for acoustic bliss.
   
  5) RCA 6080.  This is the stock tube that came with my amp.  It doesn't do much well at all.  Slow, sloppy, and lazy.  Not engaging at all.  It is warm, but not in a musical way.
   
  6) Svetlana 6H13C.  This really isn't a bad tube, but due to other circumstances, it automatically takes last place for me.  This tube isn't terrible, but it isn't really great, either.  It has good tonal balance, decent bass, and acceptable rhythm.  It is warm with a little tube bloom.  However, it is very veiled, wooly, and congested.  This, unfortunately, is torture to me.  It is extremely fatiguing to my ears and gives me intense pressure headaches after an hour or so of listening.  I will never use this tube again because of that interesting side effect.  Thus, last place.
   
  All in all, I think anyone using tubes 1-4 will have a good experience.  I could see myself using any one of them at any time depending on my mood and musical choice.  Tubes 5 and 6 will never see the socket of my amp again.
   
  But, to muddy the waters, which tube is in my amp right now?  Well, it's the 5998 of course!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It's the best all-around tube.  I tend to change genres during my listening sessions, so it makes sense to have a great all-arounder in the amp.  However, if I know I'm going to be listening to light music, or perhaps acoustic-only, for long periods of time, I'll roll in the RCA and melt away.
   
  Hope this helps someone considering rolling options.


----------



## tdogzthmn

What are some good 12AU7 replacements I should be on the lookout for?  Also the 5998-A seems to be most common, is this the version that most are referring to?


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> What are some good 12AU7 replacements I should be on the lookout for?


----------



## hodgjy

No, different tube.  That is essentially a renumbered/rebadged 6AS7GA.  Not a bad tube, but there are much better ones out there.
  
  Quote:  





> Also the 5998-A seems to be most common, is this the version that most are referring to?


----------



## Skylab

Indeed - the 5998-A isn't worth more than $10 NOS.


----------



## tdogzthmn

Quote: 





skylab said:


>


 

 very nice, where did you find this?  The only place I could find the 5998 was on tube depot.  Ebay has not had any for a few days.


----------



## Skylab

I almost hate to post this, because once I do, they will be gone, but you can get NOS 5998's from Radio Electric Supply: www.vacuumtubes.net
   
  That chart has been circulating for ages, but I've always found it pretty accurate.


----------



## hodgjy

Tubeworld.com has them, so does and vacuumtubesinc.com.
   
  However, don't over pay for them.  You can get them for no more than $40.  I'd say that at a dollar more, they aren't worth it considering the RCA is $11.

  
  Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> The only place I could find the 5998 was on tube depot.  Ebay has not had any for a few days.


----------



## tdogzthmn

I do have a matched pair of the RCA blackplates which I do enjoy very much but I have found they lose their magic with faster genres which is why I am looking for a 5998.


----------



## hodgjy

That is the perfect reason to try the 5998!!!  I hope you get your hands on some.
   
  I also found the 7236 is good at keeping up to speed with fast genres.  It's not as musical as the 5998, but yet it costs about the same.  However, they are everywhere and easy to find.
  
  Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> I do have a matched pair of the RCA blackplates which I do enjoy very much but I have found they lose their magic with faster genres which is why I am looking for a 5998.


----------



## tdogzthmn

Its the next tube on my list to buy.  BTW I have been using the bottlehead crack with the speedball upgrade and it sounds incredibly good!  I really want to bring it to a local meet and see how it compares to other tube amps.


----------



## JohnBal

I have been listening to the 5998 for about a week now in my Darkvoice 336i, comparing it to the 2399 I had received. I think they do not sound the same. Where I had found the 2399 somewhat ordinary, the 5998 is much more extended and lively sounding. Maybe it mates better with my Senn HD580's. I don't know. But I notice a big difference in HF extension. I listen to various genres, but a large dose of classic rock is currently in rotation. Cymbal crashes that I have listened to for 30 or more years were much less evident with the 2399 tube. Swapping in the 5998 there was a return of dynamic swings and HF extension that I had been missing with the 2399. The tubes look to be similar, but there are some subtle differences in construction. I know the 5998 has different construction types. So maybe it is the same tube, but I think they do sound different in my system.


----------



## glitch39

@JohnBal - try the 7236 tubes on that. Where the 5998 is lush, the 7236 brings out liveliness while still retaining the tube signature. Use the Tungsol, not the Sylvania, 7236's if possible.


----------



## JohnBal

Thanks, I'll look into that.


----------



## Henerenry

Hmmm, where is the best place to get 5998's now?
   
  I'm looking for a pair for my WA2.
   
  Also, does anyone know if the 6sj7gt is compatible with the WA2


----------



## Skylab

The 6SJ7 is most definitely not compatible with the WA2. 

 The best place I know of to get 5998's is www.vacuum tubes.net.


----------



## Zombie_X

Meh I want some Tung-Sol 5998's..... anybody willing to sell me one?


----------



## hodgjy

There is currently a set of NOS matched quads on eBay (not mine).
  
  Quote: 





zombie_x said:


> Meh I want some Tung-Sol 5998's..... anybody willing to sell me one?


----------



## Zombie_X

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> There is currently a set of NOS matched quads on eBay (not mine).


 

 The thing is that I don't need four of them, otherwise I would bid on it if it were for one tube.


----------



## hodgjy

I just acquired a really neat tube.  It's a Tung-Sol 5998A.  I know there's been a lot of talk about how the 5998A (mainly the GE flavor) is not the same as the legendary Tun-Sol 5998.  This is completely true.  But, the Tung-Sol 5998A is supposedly the same as the regular 5998, sans base and bottle tube.
   
  http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/127/5/5998A.pdf
   
  On first inspection, it seems like the plate structure is completely different from a regular 5998.
   
  Anyway, I rolled it in today and gave it a try.  To me, it's sonically the same as the 5998, which is expected.  I think it's a really neat tube because they are even more rare than the regular 5998.  I'm very happy to have this in my collection.  Best part, is it cost a fraction NOS as a regular 5998!
   
  Here's some pics:
   

   

   
  And the builder sends his greetings


----------



## Skylab

Very cool indeed, and a rare bird!  My hunch is it's basically a 7236 - looks exactly like the TS 7236's.  Nice tube!


----------



## hodgjy

You're probably right.  I did some reading on a French forum (translated of course) and some other info that basically said the 7236 is computer rated (with tighter matching) 5998A.  I've never heard a TS 7236, but I can say that the 5998A does sound very similar to the regular 5998.  The 5998A is also a lot more musical than my Sylvania 7236.
  All of the tube numbering is confusing enough with manufacturers playing tricks on us 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Anyway, I'm very happy to have this tube.  Great price and great sound.
  
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> Very cool indeed, and a rare bird!  My hunch is it's basically a 7236 - looks exactly like the TS 7236's.  Nice tube!


----------



## Zombie_X

Well I got my Tung-Sol 7236 today from my friend and well, it does not function properly. one side is brightly lit and the other is very dim. The sound is very distorted as well. Well at least it was free. Now to track down functioning ones!!


----------



## hodgjy

That stinks about your 7236.  I hope you're able to find a replacement.  They are out there, but a little rare, and not exactly cheap.


----------



## Zombie_X

Yeah, I want another one man!!!


----------



## hodgjy

Perhaps I was a little premature in my tube rankings.  After doing some extensive listening, I think I like the 5998 more than the RCA 6AS7G.  Hmmm.  Also, I have to fit the Tung-Sol 5998A, which is essentially the 7236, into my rankings somewhere.  It's an awesome little tube.  I am seeing a trend here, though, that I really seem to prefer Tung-Sol tubes.  I love my 5998, 5998A, and my Chatham 6AS7G.  All wonderful tubes and very musical.


----------



## hodgjy

Just as a little heads up, there appears to be an unusually abundant availability of Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G tubes up on eBay right now.  Great tubes and somewhat hard to find.
   
  And, no, I'm not selling any of those in case you're thinking I'm trying to drum up some sales.


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> Perhaps I was a little premature in my tube rankings.  After doing some extensive listening, I think I like the 5998 more than the RCA 6AS7G.  Hmmm.  Also, I have to fit the Tung-Sol 5998A, which is essentially the 7236, into my rankings somewhere.  It's an awesome little tube.  I am seeing a trend here, though, that I really seem to prefer Tung-Sol tubes.  I love my 5998, 5998A, and my Chatham 6AS7G.  All wonderful tubes and very musical.


 


 I have the TS5998, GEC6080 and GEC 6AS7G to roll in my WA22. Found that the TS 5998 is a bit too aggressive or a little bright although the bass presentation is the best overall. The GEC6080 is quite soft in every spectrums but very musical, especially in some chamber music, simple instrument and vocal. The GEC 6AS7G combo with TS 6SN7GT BG RP and EML 5U4G mesh plate is the best for my ears within my limited selection of tubes, deep bass with sufficient impact, smooth, seduce mids and detail, extended highs, no edge or harsh at all, very attractive sounding to suck you just into the music but listening to any phones or equipment.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> I have the TS5998, GEC6080 and GEC 6AS7G to roll in my WA22. Found that the TS 5998 is a bit too aggressive or a little bright although the bass presentation is the best overall. The GEC6080 is quite soft in every spectrums but very musical, especially in some chamber music, simple instrument and vocal. The GEC 6AS7G combo with TS 6SN7GT BG RP and EML 5U4G mesh plate is the best for my ears within my limited selection of tubes, deep bass with sufficient impact, smooth, seduce mids and detail, extended highs, no edge or harsh at all, very attractive sounding to suck you just into the music but listening to any phones or equipment.


 


 Cool setup. I switch back to GEC6080 due to the mod, which give a lot more sparkle on the top and increase dynamic and impact while still mantain general tonal signature and rich mid range of stock WA22. I needed GEC 6080 to tone it down just a hair and add body at same time. Worked out great. We, big proppa and I A/B with stock WA22 which hooked with a tube CDP, modded 22 is easily much more musical and engaging without losing the goods of stock amp. For the first time, I was OK with Grado sound (PS1000) with modded 22


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> Cool setup. I switch back to GEC6080 due to the mod, which give a lot more sparkle on the top and increase dynamic and impact while still mantain general tonal signature and rich mid range of stock WA22. I needed GEC 6080 to tone it down just a hair and add body at same time. Worked out great. We, big proppa and I A/B with stock WA22 which hooked with a tube CDP, modded 22 is easily much more musical and engaging without losing the goods of stock amp. For the first time, I was OK with Grado sound (PS1000) with modded 22


 

 Hey Seamaster, I have to thank you. Based on your valuable and very detail review of tube rolling on the WA22, I can shorten the path and save a lot money on testing which brand/tube to be installed. I agreed with the modded WA22 will not change the original sound signature of the amp but optimized the performance to another level on every spectrum. As for the GEC6080, I have opposite finding on sound with your statement, this may casued by our different set-up and tube combination etc etc. I like the GEC6AS7G combo.


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Hey Seamaster, I have to thank you. Based on your valuable and very detail review of tube rolling on the WA22, I can shorten the path and save a lot money on testing which brand/tube to be installed. I agreed with the modded WA22 will not change the original sound signature of the amp but optimized the performance to another level on every spectrum. As for the GEC6080, I have opposite finding on sound with your statement, this may casued by our different set-up and tube combination etc etc. I like the GEC6AS7G combo.


 


 Before the mod I use GEC 6AS7G, after mod I use GEC 6080 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. GEC 6AS7G is the best choice for regular WA22 due to they need little transparency, and sparkle ( a hair) on the top, while mantian warm, musical, and fluidity


----------



## Seamaster

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> , which give a lot more sparkle on the top and increase dynamic and impact while still mantain general tonal signature and rich mid range of stock WA22.


 
  I mean the mod, not the tube. sorry about my English


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





seamaster said:


> Before the mod I use GEC 6AS7G, after mod I use GEC 6080
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Interesting.................
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





seamaster said:


> I mean the mod, not the tube. sorry about my English


 

 OIC, thanks. I was misunderstanding your statement, my bad.


----------



## hodgjy

The 5998 definitely can be brighter than 6080s and other 6AS7Gs.  However, from what I've read, the 5998 sounds more "tubey" in OTLs, like the Woo 3 and Woo 2, and can sound more bright in transformer coupled amps, like the Woo 22.  The 6AS7G is definitely a beautiful and warm tube, so it might be a better match in your amp.  I've only tried one 6080, and it was the RCA variety, and I wasn't too impressed.  Perhaps the GEC is leagues better.  If I were going to listen to acoustic guitar or classical music exclusively, I would use an RCA or Chatham 6AS7G--no doubts.  But, since I often go through many genres during a listening session, the 5998 is the best all-rounder, so it gets by far the most use in my amp.
  
  Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> I have the TS5998, GEC6080 and GEC 6AS7G to roll in my WA22. Found that the TS 5998 is a bit too aggressive or a little bright although the bass presentation is the best overall. The GEC6080 is quite soft in every spectrums but very musical, especially in some chamber music, simple instrument and vocal. The GEC 6AS7G combo with TS 6SN7GT BG RP and EML 5U4G mesh plate is the best for my ears within my limited selection of tubes, deep bass with sufficient impact, smooth, seduce mids and detail, extended highs, no edge or harsh at all, very attractive sounding to suck you just into the music but listening to any phones or equipment.


----------



## Thaddy

Excellent thread.  I've put together a pretty decent collection of power tubes for my WA2 and would like to update this thread with my thoughts after I've had some time to get used to them. 
   
  Here's what I have:
  RCA 6080
  Tungsol/Chatham 6080
  Tungsol 7236
  Sylvania 7236
  Tungsol 5998
  Tungsol/Chatham 6AS7G
  RCA Black Plate 6AS7G
   
  I'll be rolling all of these into my Woo Audio WA2 and using my HD650's with a Moon Audio Blue Dragon cable.


----------



## hodgjy

Since you already indicated that you like the RCA black plate 6AS7G, you're going to love the Chatham flavor.  I think it's a little warmer and smoother, with just a sprinkle of more detail packed in there.  It's a very seductive tube.  Mine doesn't get as much use as my 5998, but I'm never going to sell it.  It's mine forever.
  
  Quote: 





thaddy said:


> Here's what I have:
> 
> Tungsol/Chatham 6AS7G


----------



## Thaddy

That's good to hear, especially since right now I think these RCA 6AS7G's are my favorite.  I'm even liking them a bit more than the Tungsol 5998's.
   
   
  Well,  at least for tonight's music selection...


----------



## tdogzthmn

Ok guys, what about the 7236?  I have not seen much on here about this tube which is also a replacement for the 6AS7.


----------



## Skylab

The 7236 is a bit of an enigma.  Made by Tung-sol and Sylvania only, and while supposedly a "computer-rated" version of the 5998, the plate structure isn't like the 5998, or the 6AS7G.  I find them to be more "solid-state" sounding than eother the 5998 or the 6AS7G.


----------



## tdogzthmn

That sounds like a tube I would enjoy.  I like the clean detailed sound that solid state amps have so I will have to pick up one of these.  Are there any brands/models of the 7236 that I should keep a look out for?


----------



## Skylab

Most people see to prefer the Tung-sol over the Sylvania.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





tdogzthmn said:


> That sounds like a tube I would enjoy.  I like the clean detailed sound that solid state amps have so I will have to pick up one of these.  Are there any brands/models of the 7236 that I should keep a look out for?


 

 The Bendix 6080 may be worth considering.


----------



## Thaddy

Another vote for the Tungsol 7236.  It's been seeing a lot of playing time in my WA2.


----------



## Golden Monkey

Any thoughts or comparisons of the Tung Sol 6520, especially compared to the 5998?  Mine's still breaking in, but I love this tube so far...seems very airy, lively and dynamic.  Maybe slightly less lush than the the 5998, but an incredible sense of space and separation in the soundstage.  My only issue is it is very sensitive to microphonics (this seems to be subsiding as it breaks in though)...is this inherent in the design of the 6520, or is mine just noisy?
   
  (EDIT: yes, I haven't posted here in AGES, lol...hiatus ended)


----------



## Skylab

I have two different types of Tung-Sol 6520's.  A few look exactly like 5998's.  A few look exactly like TS 6AS7G's.  I thought both sounded excellent, but did slightly prefer the "5998 Style" one.  I thought it sounded very similar to the 5998 (which is no surprise, I guess...)
   
  Mine actually were not microphonic, although many of the bog-bottle 6AS7-type tubes are, for sure...hit or miss...


----------



## Golden Monkey

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I have two different types of Tung-Sol 6520's.  A few look exactly like 5998's.  A few look exactly like TS 6AS7G's.  I thought both sounded excellent, but did slightly prefer the "5998 Style" one.  I thought it sounded very similar to the 5998 (which is no surprise, I guess...)
> 
> Mine actually were not microphonic, although many of the bog-bottle 6AS7-type tubes are, for sure...hit or miss...


 

 Do you mean in the plates they used (ie: 5998s have the six dots, like a domino) or the entire interal structure?  If mine doesn't quiet down, what are your feelings on using a tube damper on this tube?  I wasn't too happy with the results using Herbie's Halos on my preamp tubes.  None of them really had microphonic issues anyway, and it seemed to deaden the sound/dynamics of the tubes, but would it matter as much on a power tube?


----------



## les_garten

I usually S-can Tubes that are microphonic.  YMMV however.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





golden monkey said:


> Do you mean in the plates they used (ie: 5998s have the six dots, like a domino) or the entire interal structure?  If mine doesn't quiet down, what are your feelings on using a tube damper on this tube?  I wasn't too happy with the results using Herbie's Halos on my preamp tubes.  None of them really had microphonic issues anyway, and it seemed to deaden the sound/dynamics of the tubes, but would it matter as much on a power tube?


 

 Yes - some of the Tung-Sol tubes I have that say 6520 have that "domino" style plate like the 5998, and others look exactly like the Tung-Sol 6AS7G (and probably are identical).
   
  I have used Herbies on the big ST tubes, with good effect.  Funny that you said that on preamp tubes you thought it deadened the sound.  ALL tubes are microphonic, it just depends on to what degree, and the microphonics are a part of the sound.  But a severely microphonic is a bummer, and like Les, I throw those out.  But if it's just slightly microphonic, I don't worry about it.


----------



## Golden Monkey

Well, the Halos on the preamp tubes just dulled the nice tubey qualities TOO much.  As for this troublesome 6520 (this is a 6AS7 type...looks the same except for copper grid rods, and the grid wire looks golden), it may need to go back...it has about ten hours on it now, and not only is there the overly-sensitive microphonic issue, but there's also a faint buzzing/crackling that comes and goes.  If you tap the tube, it'll usually make that noise stop for a bit.  By comparison my 5998s are dead silent, and even tapping the glass barely makes a sound.  I tried some damping on the 6520, and it definitely helped with the microphonics, but I don't want to have to order any "real" ones for just this one tube.  It's a GREAT sounding tube, issues aside.  Very similar to the 5998, with impressive air.  I'd love to get my hands on a "good" one...hint hint, lol.


----------



## Golden Monkey

I just got a really cool 1948 GE 6AS7G that has copper radiators and a clear top...were these fairly common, or was the copper use somewhat more scarce?  I haven't been able to find too many pics of other 6AS7Gs of this vintage, so I'm just curious...


----------



## tdogzthmn

PICS please.


----------



## Golden Monkey

Quote:


tdogzthmn said:


> PICS please.


 

 Yeah, I will tomorrow, as soon as I have some good light...it's a cool looking tube, and sounds awesome as well!
   
  EDIT: PICS! - I didn't really get a shot of the top, but it's clear glass, like others of this vintage, and has a single bottom getter.


----------



## Golden Monkey

Well, I returned the super-microphonic 6520, and got two more in its place.  These are still slightly microphonic, but not nearly as bad.  They are just really high gain, and seem much more sensitive to vibration than others in this family. Like Skylab mentioned, these look almost identical to a 6AS7G, except for the grid wire, which is gold. I ordered a Herbie's Rx damper, along with some isocups and a few other things I had my eye on...that should tame the sensitive nature of the 6520.  I think the glass may be slightly thinner than other bottle-type tubes, but I have no way to confirm this...it sounds just a little bit "tingy-er" than the 5998 if you tap on it with a fingernail.  Other than that, these tubes sound simply amazing.  I think I may still favor the 5998 as an all-around choice, but I could easily live with the 6520.  Detail and clarity, openness and air are it's strong points.  It pairs really well with the Valvo (Amperex Holland) 7DJ8's in my collection.
   
  Oh, and that '48 6AS7G pictured above sounds awesome too...I need to get some nightime glowing shots of it, lol...


----------



## rosgr63

Has anybody used the Marconi A1834?
  How does it compare to the GEC A1834?


----------



## Golden Monkey

Same tube, just relabelled.


----------



## Skylab

Yup, same tube for sure, both GEC made.  And that pair sold for a pretty penny!  I saw a single NOS GEC A1834 just sold for $150+.  While I really like the sound of these, at those prices, I would stick with a 5998 in most applications, as long as those can still be had for $40 each NOS.


----------



## tdogzthmn

Listening to my IBM labled 5998 i hear alot of body while maintaining clarity and neutral tone.  Its a super quiet tube compared to my other 6AS7G tubes which often have a faint background hum.  I am running the 5998 through a bottlhead crack+speedball with new HD600's.  
   
  Very content at the moment.


----------



## Happy Camper

After following Skylab's (and others) advice, I tried the TS 5998 and nothing else has been put in and that was a couple years ago. It is a versatile tube as well as being good on the eye.


----------



## Golden Monkey

Yup, the 5998 is pretty much the perfect tube of this type...that's why I started hoarding them a while back, lol.


----------



## tdogzthmn

Now I just need to find the best 12AU7 type to pair with it.  I've been looking to get an E80CC which is not the same as the 12AU7 but will also work in my amp.


----------



## KMASCII

I was curious what the state of new vacuum tube manufacturing was? More specifically, do any of the newer tubes match the performance of some of the older stallworths? I'd noticed that there is a Western Electric web site that still sells vacuum tubes here. And I know that companies like Electroharmonix and others have "reissued" some products and are as well manufacturing new versions of old standards. I've bought a couple reissued tubes in the recent past and had been a little disappointed with them.
   
  I wish that there were some more affordable options to purchase tubes like the Chatham 6AS7G. For myself, these tubes might just as well be mythical items, something that I'll likely never get to hear. Not having the time or money to track such rare things down, is there any point in the future for any of the "new" tube companies to remanufacture some of these old legendary tubes? And what exactly are these reissued tubes? Do they conform to their original patented predecessors?


----------



## Skylab

That WE site is no longer really operative.  There was a short period where a few WE tubes were being manufactured at the old WE owensboro KY plant, but that incarnation of WE is gone.  And most "re-issues" are a far cry from the originals.
   
  There are some good new production tubes, but they seem few and far between, in terms of competing with NOS.


----------



## KMASCII

I didn't realize the Western Electric site was inactive. I'm more lamenting an opportunity to hear some of the classic NOS tubes. I really do love the easily available RCA 6AS7G, wonderful tube. And I love how they pair so well with the more difficult to get ahold of Sylvania 5751... or should I say the "correct" Sylvania 5751's. Sorry for the thread drift. But I'd sure love to see someone lease a patent or two of some of these old tubes.


----------



## marcocb

Hi, this is my first post.
  Thanks to this forum I'm a happy owner of a nice Darkvoice 336SE and the marvelous headphones Sennheiser HD800.
  And with the Darkvoice came the tube rolling! ... There are tons of 6SN7 and 6AS7 in the world!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  My 6AS7 type collection includes RCA 6AS7G black plates, Philips 6AS7G gray plates, Svetlana 6N13S, GE 6080WA, GE 6AS7GA, GE 5998A and a strange 6AS7G branded Marshall Electronics with 5998's plates (see photos).
  I did a lot of research in internet but I didn't find anything like that. It seems a 6520, but the writings state 6AS7G.
  Indeed the sound with the Marshall is pretty better than with the others. Wider headstage, deeper bass, wonderful midrange.
  What do you think about it?
   
  Now my Darkvoice has the Marshall 6AS7G paired with JAN-CHY CBS 5692 or alternatively a Tung-Sol VT231 round plates as driver.
  I'm very happy with that.


----------



## Skylab

I would bet that tube is a 6520, which was often 5998 innards with 6AS7 specs.  Also made by ONLY Tung Sol.


----------



## marcocb

Thanks Skylab


----------



## Ultrainferno

My local tube supplier is charging me this for NOS tested tubes
   
  Telefunken EF80: 12€/piece ~ 17$/piece
  RCA 6as7G Black plates: 15€/piece ~ 21$/piece
   
  How are those prices you think?


----------



## Happy Camper

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> My local tube supplier is charging me this for NOS tested tubes
> 
> Telefunken EF80: 12€/piece ~ 17$/piece
> RCA 6as7G Black plates: 15€/piece ~ 21$/piece
> ...


 
  Very nice.


----------



## SDMAN

This looks like the right thread for this. I stumbled across a website, overseas that does not have an english translation page. And Google's translator was not much help. But. It did translate enough for me to see NOS GEC A1834. And it also translated the quantity. 49 I think. And it had several listings with pics. Ill post one when I finish typing.
   
  I work in the electronics industry (PCB designer) and the stuff we design thats not controlled by ITAR can go overseas for production. So I have some contacts where these are for sale. Contacts that can buy them and ship them to me. I have not completely finished setting this up, but it looks like I will have to wire transfer payment to the bank of the guy who will buy it. Including shipping. No Paypal and so far it doesnt look like credit/debit cards are an option either. So far. He then buys it and ships it back to me. Might be a week or two before this gets all setup as my contact is a rep and travels a bit. We will see if this works out.
   
  A pair of these is 1600 Yuan, which is $240 us. Not inexpensive. I have mentioned this in the last day or so, and a couple of people have contacted me with interest. Its to early for me to say that this is a sure thing, but Ill keep on it until it either goes thru or falls thru.  Heres the pic. And as I said, there were many listings. My preference is to get this setup so anyone that wants one (or two) can just follow the process that I use, and order on their own. Ill be the guinea pig.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, please let us know what happens.  That is a pretty high price, but if they are truly NOS, and in original boxes, then it would not be too awful...


----------



## SDMAN

So, does anyone know if this tube can safely be used in a Woo WA22? For higher power use (perhaps for LCD-2's).

  
  Quote: 





glitch39 said:


> *6528 - equiv to 5998 but very high gain at 9, twice the current load. Make sure you amp can handle it*


----------



## Skylab

I VERY seriously doubt it.  The 6528 is not really very close to the 6AS7.  Plus, IMHO, it sounds like CRAP.


----------



## Ultrainferno

My tubeman made a mistake and has only 1 of the RCA and GEC 6as7G left but he does have the Chatham 6AS7G for 17€,
  He also has the RCA grey plates in stock. How are those rca 6as7g grey plates? All the opinions seem to be based on the black plates
  Rca Gray or Chathams? Chathams, right? (aren't they Tung Sols anyway?)
   
  They'll be used in my Lafigaro 339 with the TeleFunken EF80
   
  thanks!


----------



## Ultrainferno

Still interested in the answer but I bought the CHAT anyway


----------



## SDMAN

I just picked up a quad set of NOS Tung-sol 6520's..


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





sdman said:


> I just picked up a quad set of NOS Tung-sol 6520's..


 


  So YOU are the one who outbid me


----------



## tdogzthmn

I really enjoy the 5998 in my crack with speedball and makes for really fast and clean sound that hits hard.


----------



## SDMAN

A while back I posted that I had found a seller in the far east with 49 GEC A1834's. Supposedly all NOS. Pics were posted. I have checked the website and seller out, and it appears to be the real deal (Ive had people we work with there do the checking). I set out to find a contact there that could do the buying and ship them to me. I got an E-mail today from that contact, and I will have the banking info to do the fund transfer to next week. They are travelling on business this week. I am going to order 4 pair, at 1600 yuan a pair (~$245.00 US). Plus shipping and any taxes. I have no insight as to the tax liability. Shipping shouldnt be all that bad.
   
  I will keep 2 pair, one to use in my WA22, and one to put on the shelve. The other 2 pair I will sell. Likely on Audiogon. I have had a few (2 or 3...cant re-call) members ask me to keep them informed on the progress of this. If anyone wants to get in on this, I think I can order more, but Im only paying for the 4 sets. You would need to paypal me (or bank check) prior to my ordering. I assume no liability on this, as there is always the possibility something goes awry. I dont think it will, as I have checked it out as good as I can, and Im willing to risk $1000. But thats as much as Im willing to gamble on this virtual 'trip to Vegas'.
   
  PM me if this is something that is of interest to you. Then I have current contact data.
   
  Additional data. Got a complete set of pics. Maybe someone who is familiar with this tube can comment on their authenticity by looking at the pics.


----------



## SDMAN

Last call for this. While its possible I can make a second buy, it will be somewhat of an annoyance for my contact. And its always possible a request for a second purchase (through this contact) would be refused. I would then need to establish a second contact. Do-able, but an additional task I would have to make time for. Currently, looks like 8 pair total based the PM's I received.


----------



## nututubes

I'm still in.


----------



## Skylab

Nice of you to organize that, SDMAN.  I am going to pass on my end - I have enough of those to last me, and I bought mine for much less than that price, although that was a long time ago, and these days I doubt you can get them cheaper than what SDMAN has found.


----------



## davo50

Still in also.


----------



## Golfnutz

I think before I could commit to this, as a minimum I would like to see a group photo of 20 or so tubes outside the boxes (with boxes in view) in various positions. For me this would be a better starting point before making a decision.
   
  I did find a few sites that were claiming the KT88's were being faked out of China. They're brown bases look similar to the 6AS7G's (based on the photos of the KT88's I saw). I also saw what was suppose to be a faked GEC yellow label on another tube.


----------



## Golfnutz

Some comparison photos of my 6AS7G:


----------



## SDMAN

Counterfeiting is a legitimate concern. Its a huge problem in China, though I am not personally familiar with any such proven activity regarding vaccum tubes. But the truth is, anything is possible, and just because I havent heard of it does not mean its not occuring at some level. Risk is part of this deal, and I have been completely open about that aspect. Thus my personal $1000 limit (I did originally refer to this as a virtual trip to vegas). Meaning the possibility exists that you could arrive back home with empty pockets.
   
  Having said that, here is why Im willing to take the risk.  The website is all in chinese. There is almost no translateable (thru google) info. The website's contact person speaks no english. None. We both tried E-mailing each other (twice), and there was a 12,000 mile communication gap. Now the percentage of the population in China that would even remotely be interested in these tubes is incredibly small. Miniscule, actually. Given the website, thats the only market these goods are realistically offered in. Remember. No Paypal. No credit/debit cards. In reality, no way to pay PERIOD unless you have a chinese bank account, and can do an in country fund transfer. And shipping out of the country is a completely seperate issue (problem). If this guy is a counterfeiter, he isnt a very good one. But its always best to be skeptical. And I wouldnt blame anyone for holding back to see how my purchase goes. It very well may be the smart thing to do.
   
  Back to your suggestion. Can I get a picture of 10-12 sets of these tubes, with boxes? Thats an interesting question. And not necessarily a bad idea. He likely does have a camera. How hard could it be for him to sooth our fears and supply the requested pic? Especially if we make it a requirement to do the sale. Seems to me a legitimate seller would be happy to supply such a pic to close the deal on such a large order (half his stock). I will run that by my contact and see what the response is.


----------



## nututubes

@Golfnutz
You make a good point, but I have some great photos of my GEC 6AS7Gs from a legit eBayer. The tubes looked good in photos as well as up close when I received them. They failed however during the first few hours...by by $320.
My point here is photos won't change my mind.

SD I'm in with you. I look at the possible risk/reward as being acceptable.


----------



## Golfnutz

I'd really like to buy a couple pairs too. I just have some concerns. The one with 49 available looks a bit different, and doesn't show a box. There's also a price difference. SDMAN was posting the pics of the ones with only 2 available. So I'm a bit confused.  I sent SDMAN a PM earlier today to let him know that there are two postings, asking if maybe it was the same person.  I just don't know if he's aware and as confused as I am. I wasn't questioning the photos in his posting, I was just adding them for others to let them know the photos looked good (on the Ad with only 2 available), and to compare if there was an additional group photo with 10 - 20 tubes and boxes.


----------



## Skylab

IMHO, the ones in the bottom picture with the rounded bases are the better tubes.


----------



## lawrywild

Is this greyish deposit below the getter flash something to worry about? The tube's tested as good (from audiotubes.com), and it works and sounds fine too. It's a Chatham JAN-CAHG-6080WB btw.

It pretty much goes around the whole circumference.


----------



## rosgr63

It looks like a Bendix, very nice tube indeed.
  If it tests good and sounds nice I would not worry about it.
  Just enjoy the music.


----------



## lawrywild

It's got a different plate structure to the Bendix, these are almost triangular, same as the TS JAN-CTL one, the Bendix are sort of T-shaped from what I've seen in pics. Also the ceramic spacers seem to be thinner on this. Certainly a lovely sounding tube, and looks even better too, especially it's glow:
   

  Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> It looks like a Bendix, very nice tube indeed.
> If it tests good and sounds nice I would not worry about it.
> Just enjoy the music.


----------



## KMASCII

Quote: 





golfnutz said:


> I'd really like to buy a couple pairs too. I just have some concerns. The one with 49 available looks a bit different, and doesn't show a box. There's also a price difference. SDMAN was posting the pics of the ones with only 2 available. So I'm a bit confused.  I sent SDMAN a PM earlier today to let him know that there are two postings, asking if maybe it was the same person.  I just don't know if he's aware and as confused as I am. I wasn't questioning the photos in his posting, I was just adding them for others to let them know the photos looked good (on the Ad with only 2 available), and to compare if there was an additional group photo with 10 - 20 tubes and boxes.


 

 If the ones in the top photo are GEC A1834's they are equivalent 6080's right? They look similar, but aren't really 6AS7G's? Thanks.


----------



## Skylab

The ones in the top pick look more like a typical 6AS7G than the bottom ones.  But both are 6AS7G's. I have both, and I think the lower pic type with the rounded base sound a bit better (and are older).


----------



## lawrywild

Quote: 





lawrywild said:


> Is this greyish deposit below the getter flash something to worry about? The tube's tested as good (from audiotubes.com), and it works and sounds fine too. It's a Chatham JAN-CAHG-6080WB btw.
> 
> It pretty much goes around the whole circumference.


 


  An update on this tube... the 'deposits' or whatever have been slowly disappearing with use. Heres an image of the same tube, on the right, a week later. Anyone got a clue what's going on? lol


----------



## dannie01

Frankly, I will never trust these kind of tubes selling in Taoboa from China but the pair in the bottom are really tempting, good luck.
   
  Just my 2 cents.

  
  Quote: 





golfnutz said:


> I'd really like to buy a couple pairs too. I just have some concerns. The one with 49 available looks a bit different, and doesn't show a box. There's also a price difference. SDMAN was posting the pics of the ones with only 2 available. So I'm a bit confused.  I sent SDMAN a PM earlier today to let him know that there are two postings, asking if maybe it was the same person.  I just don't know if he's aware and as confused as I am. I wasn't questioning the photos in his posting, I was just adding them for others to let them know the photos looked good (on the Ad with only 2 available), and to compare if there was an additional group photo with 10 - 20 tubes and boxes.


----------



## oldwine

dannie,
   
  It's true, however i cannot find any GEC A1834 in Hong Kong, and the shopkeeper said many mainlander bought them and send back to China.
   
  Or, you have any other reliable sources to get them???
   
  Thanks
  
  Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Frankly, I will never trust these kind of tubes selling in Taoboa from China but the pair in the bottom are really tempting, good luck.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





oldwine said:


> dannie,
> 
> It's true, however i cannot find any GEC A1834 in Hong Kong, and the shopkeeper said many mainlander bought them and send back to China.
> 
> ...


 

 I bought a pair from HK (actually Danny helped me on this), it is very good experience but he can't get anymore.  I have my name on his waiting list on the GEC 6AS7G, the last time I exchange emails with him, he do have few more matched pair of GEC 6080.


----------



## Golfnutz

Yeah, I think I'm gonna have to sit this one out. I just hope SDMAN isn't chasing a big white Elephant. If he isn't and ends up with a couple of pairs, he'll really enjoy them. Ohhh, it would be nice to have some extras on-hand though....  Thanks for the comments guys.


----------



## Tinola

Bought a pair of Bendix 6080, now waiting for my crack to test it out.


----------



## lawrywild

How do NEC (Nippon Electronics) 6AS7G's sound?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Was there ever any consensus on whether the 2399 is electrically a 5998 or a 6AS7?  I've read through this entire thread but it seems like no certainly was established.  I ordered a pair of 5998 from a tube seller and what I received were Chatham 2399.  They have 5998 plates, but if they are electrically a 6AS7G then that would basically make them a 6520 which isn't what I was looking for.  They also have copper grid posts, where as my understanding is the 5998 usually uses steel.  I'll probably keep them regardless but I'm hoping I can figure out whether I can put them on the 5998 or 6AS7 side of my tube box.  
   
  There are some nice looking 6520 on eBay I'm considering bidding on right now, but if the Chatham 2399 is the same tube then I will pass on that.  If, however, they are a 5998 then I'd still be bidding so I'm hoping to find out.  Thanks guys!


----------



## Skylab

I'm not sure we will ever really know. I've searched the web over many times, and never found a 2399 data sheet. I have seen some folks say it's a 5998, but if that were true, why the different number designation? Especially since only Tung-Sol ever made either one?

It's also funny that I have Tung-Sol 6520 tubes which look like 5998's internally, and others that look like 6AS7G's. Odd.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Hmmm.  Maybe they are a little bit of both, but my thought was if they are electrically a 5998 that would be confirmable by using them with a high power ortho and seeing how much drive they have compared to a 6AS7.  I've read from quite a few users that the 5998 really excels with power hungry headphones.  At any rate I'm kind of glad I have them since they are somewhat unique.  Thanks for your input Skylab, if you don't know then the info must be very obscure indeed.


----------



## Skylab

There is no doubt that the 2399 is a good sounding tube! That much at least we do know


----------



## Xcalibur255

The more I examine the 2399 the more little details keep popping out at me.  There really are a number of differences.  Most easily appreciated is the presence of a 3rd spacer tab holding the top mica against the glass, probably to improve on microphonics.  There is an additional coating of some kind on the plates that was sprayed on after the micas were fixed in place, because you can see where the overspray, blocked by the plates, forms a cross on the bottom of the mica.  There is also an additional coating or jacket on many wires which are normally bare in the 5998 and 6AS7G.  Most obvious would be the copper grid posts and grid wires in place of the normal steel ones.  It looks like the pins have been tinned for some reason as well, which made cleaning them far more aggravating because of the rough texture.  I'm guessing it was done to make them more resistant to oxidation, but the parts that have blackened stubbornly insist on staying that way no matter how much I work at them so hopefully it will not present any noise issues with electrical contact.
   
  Overall a very neat tube.  There is an alarming amount of loose broken glass inside one of them, which I know is no big deal, but it is still strange to hear it sound like a cheap broken chirstmas tree ornament whenever I move the tube.


----------



## Ultrainferno

So what's the story of (RCA) 6AS7G heavy plate tubes? They're not grey and not black, but how do they sound?


----------



## john57

Has anyone tried the Shuguang 6N5P (6AS7) tubes and how they sound?


----------



## Skylab

They sound awful.  If you want cheap, the Russian version is much better.


----------



## john57

.


----------



## librarian

Subscribed!


----------



## Capt. Z

Subscribed


----------



## john57

I have not see this kind of 6N5S or 6F5M? tube shortly tube before
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Is this tube even compatible to the 6AS7 tube?


----------



## Skylab

Not compatible in any way, shape, or form.


----------



## john57

It was for sale at eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N5S-6AS7G-ECC230-tubes-NOS-5ps-Vintage-Soviet-/140709499805?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20c2f0939d I think that the seller just mess up with another listing. I was thinking about a different version of 6F8G but it is not.


----------



## Skylab

Just proving you cannot use eBay ads as a tube substitution guide. Wrong base, has grid cap, and looks like a single triode whereas the 6AS7 is a dual triode. The only good news is that because the base is different, I don't think you'd be able to actually plug one in and watch your amp exPlode. 

That tube has a gain of 100, and the 6AS7 has a gain of 2 

EDIT: in looking again that might be an octal base. So I take it back...one might very well be able to damage their amp permanently by trying to use those tubes in place of a 6AS7...not to mention what would happen if they god forbid touched an uncovered grid cap with the amp powered up...scary.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I've always been a little weary of tubes with grid caps in general for precisely this reason.


----------



## Oskari

That title does not belong to that auction item. The 6N5S is a 6AS7G but that is not a 6N5S we see.


----------



## Csericks

Please excuse my lack of experience. I've owned various tube amps during the past dozen or so years but the past month or so with my WA 2 is my introduction to an amp using variants of the 6as7.  I have just acquired a pair of NOS JAN RCA 6as7g Black Plates from a reputable dealer.  There is a rather prominent hum with these tubes.  Is this a common problem with these tubes?


----------



## hodgjy

Yes, the tubes can be quite noisy for up to 30 hours.  Then, they usually settle down.  However, I've noticed that most of the RCA 6AS7G tubes I put into my WA3 (similar design as the WA2) always seem to hum.  I can't figure out if I'm just unlucky with every RCA I've tried, my WA3 is defective, or if it's a design issue inherent with Woo OTL amps.
  
  Quote: 





csericks said:


> Please excuse my lack of experience. I've owned various tube amps during the past dozen or so years but the past month or so with my WA 2 is my introduction to an amp using variants of the 6as7.  I have just acquired a pair of NOS JAN RCA 6as7g Black Plates from a reputable dealer.  There is a rather prominent hum with these tubes.  Is this a common problem with these tubes?


----------



## Csericks

So after a few extended sessions they should calm down?  Is this a problem that is limited to RCAs?


----------



## hodgjy

Many tubes need to "burn in" before they become stable.  It's common for tubes to hum, buzz, howl, pop, etc. for up to 30 hours or so while they burn in.  This is universal to many makes and brands of tubes.
  
  Quote: 





csericks said:


> So after a few extended sessions they should calm down?  Is this a problem that is limited to RCAs?


----------



## Csericks

I have experienced no such issues with my WA 6 or my ARC gear.


----------



## hodgjy

Is your WA2 your first OTL amp?  OTL amps are more colored by tubes, and therefore, are more prone to their flaws.


----------



## Csericks

This is my first OTL.


----------



## hodgjy

In general, the 6AS7G family of tubes are some of the noisiest tubes out there.  Then, throw them into an OTL amp as the power tube, you are prone to a lot of noise.  The WA6 uses an output transformer, so it's a less noisy design to start.  OTL amps tend to sound the most "tubey" and euphonic, but they are also more prone to tube noise than their transformer-coupled cousins, in my opinion.


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> In general, the 6AS7G family of tubes are some of the noisiest tubes out there.  Then, throw them into an OTL amp as the power tube, you are prone to a lot of noise.  The WA6 uses an output transformer, so it's a less noisy design to start.  OTL amps tend to sound the most "tubey" and euphonic, but they are also more prone to tube noise than their transformer-coupled cousins, in my opinion.


 
  A  OTL amp takes the output right off the tube but a amp with a output transformer the tube puts out a higher audio voltage and that voltage is dropped by the ratio
  of the transformer. So the noise is dropped by that ratio of the transformer. Plus the WA6 uses a tube that is not as noisy as a 6AS7.
      If you want 6AS7s that aren't noisy try Russian 6AS7/ 6H13 they are very cheep direct from Russia and don't sound that bad..


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





csericks said:


> So after a few extended sessions they should calm down?  Is this a problem that is limited to RCAs?


 


  You can find quiet RCAs, but it can take some patience.  I think the TungSol/Chatham version of this tube is quite a bit better all around, but they are very hard to find these days.


----------



## john57

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> You can find quiet RCAs, but it can take some patience.  I think the TungSol/Chatham version of this tube is quite a bit better all around, but they are very hard to find these days.


 


   
  It is a bit of a issue to find good 6AS7's RCA out there. I just put in a pair of Chatham 6AS7 tubes in my amp. I just worn out my first pair ofTungSol 6080 tubes. I agree that the TungSol/Chatham tubes are quite good.


----------



## hodgjy

I've used the Russian tube before.  It's nice, and I think it's quite underrated around here.
  
  Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> If you want 6AS7s that aren't noisy try Russian 6AS7/ 6H13 they are very cheep direct from Russia and don't sound that bad..


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





john57 said:


> It is a bit of a issue to find good 6AS7's RCA out there. I just put in a pair of Chatham 6AS7 tubes in my amp. I just worn out my first pair ofTungSol 6080 tubes. I agree that the TungSol/Chatham tubes are quite good.


 


  You wore a pair of 6080 out already john?  You must leave your amp on most of the time.


----------



## hodgjy

I thought the same thing.  But, he might have purchases used tubes.  Also, tubes don't always last as long as they're rated to live.
   
  6080s are rated to last about 5000 hours.  If left on 24x7, they should wear out in about 209 days.  That's not a very long life even assuming they didn't prematurely wear out before 5000 hours.
  
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> You wore a pair of 6080 out already john?  You must leave your amp on most of the time.


----------



## Zeruel the 14th

Found this via google images

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j190/mikeymad/First_Shots_2008-01-26_0005.jpg
 It was sourced from the comments found here. http://www.stereophile.com/content/woo-audio-wa2-1
  
  So I ask, is there anything in the 6AS7 / 6080 family that exhibits a similar appearance? Long exposure or not, It's very sexy. 
  I'm still running stock since I got my WA2 in Dec of 2011, but I'm putting feelers out there on the tube rolling front due to heavy use. (It serves as the main sound output on my PC...so it's getting a lot of idle  time. (I turn it off when leaving the house though)


----------



## rosgr63

I have tried a few pairs of RCA 6AS7G and re branded RCA 6AS7G black and grey plates, military and commercial, and I don't have any hum issues with my two SP's which are both OTL I believe.
  I don't think some of my tubes are particularly excellent examples so it has to be related to the amp design.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have tried a few pairs of RCA 6AS7G and re branded RCA 6AS7G black and grey plates, military and commercial, and I don't have any hum issues with my two SP's which are both OTL I believe.
> I don't think some of my tubes are particularly excellent examples so it has to be related to the amp design.


 

  
  Amp design or not. Some tubes hum and some tubes don't, that's just how it is. Some tubes stop humming after a while, others never do. It's like a surprise when you buy them


----------



## 2359glenn

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I have tried a few pairs of RCA 6AS7G and re branded RCA 6AS7G black and grey plates, military and commercial, and I don't have any hum issues with my two SP's which are both OTL I believe.
> I don't think some of my tubes are particularly excellent examples so it has to be related to the amp design.


 
  Allot of times some of these tubes have some heater to cathode leakage this can be somewhat reduced if the heater circuit
  is run positive in respect to the cathode. With a AC ground through a capacitor I have done this in the last two amps I built
  not sure if it it helped but can't heart.
    The 6AS7 was never intended to be used as a audio amp it was made to be a voltage regulator in a series pass circuit.


----------



## john57

Tubes do not wear out they fade away instead. Yes the tubes were partly used Tung-sol 6080 and one of my Bendix 6080 is very weak now but I think that the Bendix tube has a manufacture defect that limited its lifespan. It all depends on the circuit and type of headphones like my othos which likes power.
   
  I just finished rebuilding my Sencore TC28 tube tester, repaired its ultra sensitive leakage circuit and did a full factory calibration with a just a bit more sensitivity for my needs. I thought that the TS 6080 was needing a bit more volume and the Bendix was diffing out of balance and the Sencore really shows the reaming life almost nothing down to 20 microamps. Fresh tubes reads about 680 microamps on this tester. The Sencore large meter really gives wide swings between fresh and weak tubes which I like in a tester. The Sencore meter even jumps on my noisy RCA 6AS7 tubes when they ping during warm-up. I am planning to create a graph show the remaining tube life in one month steps or longer.  I have brought a GEC 6080 for $30 tube that was very clean and test at 790 micoamps steady on the tester, the highest I measured to date and I need one more in order to have a pair for the amp.
  Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> I thought the same thing.  But, he might have purchases used tubes.  Also, tubes don't always last as long as they're rated to live.
> 
> 6080s are rated to last about 5000 hours.  If left on 24x7, they should wear out in about 209 days.  That's not a very long life even assuming they didn't prematurely wear out before 5000 hours.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Buying singles and matching yourself is probably the way to go to save money if you own a tester, especially if the tubes are normally sought out in pairs because of how they are used.


----------



## john57

yes what you said is true, but the key reason I got this tester was to have a good shorts and leakage test. There are tubes that may test okay on a *Hickok* for example but will fail in my amp and can damaged the headphone as it happen to me once. Having a tester that has greater [size=medium]capacity [/size]to point out those troublesome tubes and preserve my investment is what drove me to get a tester in the first place. Having a tester that can confirm if the tubes are starting to get a bit weaker so that I can graph it is icing on the cake.


----------



## rosgr63

John the scale on the TC28 is not for tubes and is not meant to be used for evaluating them.
  All you need are the colored scales.
  When you carry out the life test make sure it lasts for 60 seconds.


----------



## john57

I use the scale as a relative reference point for the tube as it ages. In other words how bad or low the reading get before sound quality will suffer is one thing I am curious to find out. I also know where is the 100meg and the 200meg calibrated reference points for leakage are on the scale.  The life test feature works very well.  Also how fast the meter moves upscale during the emission test is indicative of possible low remaining life for the tube that I can use the life test to confirm that. With emission testers there is no hard rule on where the bad and good areas on the meter should start.  Even with mutual conductance testers do not always read the same tube with the same results. I can show a study that reflects on this.


----------



## Csericks

Anyone out there know the company that manufactured Hytron branded 6as7g tubes?


----------



## Skylab

I have no reason to believe that it wasn't Hytron itself.


----------



## john57

the ones that I see are CBS/Hytron tubes with the manufacture code of 210. Is there a three letter/number code on the tube?


----------



## Csericks

I was speaking to a guy at ABC vacuum tubes who told me that these would not have been made by Hytron - I don't know anything about these except that they sound great. 
Where would I find the code?


----------



## Skylab

Look on the base of the tube for a three digit code. That's the EIA code. 210 is Hytron. 

I have some Hytron 6AS7Gs. They don't look exactly like RCA or Sylvania or Tung Sol, who were the major makers of 6AS7Gs. So I believe they are Hytron. They carry the Hytron code.


----------



## Csericks

On the base is the number 5105


----------



## Xcalibur255

Any chance for a close up photo?  If they're from the 50's or maybe very early 60's they very well could be Hytron, anything later than that is very likely to be a re-branded RCA.


----------



## Skylab

csericks said:


> On the base is the number 5105




Well, that is a date code, not an EIA manufacturer code.

http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm#tubes


----------



## Ultrainferno

Just got these NOS, quite happy!


----------



## Skylab

Two of the very finest there are! Congrats.


----------



## grokit

I just tried a pair of those GEC's for the first time, really nice. From my correspondence with the seller:
   
_They really open up the Sophia, not so much the 596 which was unexpected because the 596 has always had the bigger soundstage. With the HD800 and the Sophia the soundstage is unbelievable, really defined. I am guessing but it would probably be too much with the EML 5U4G, it is already too much with certain recordings. The overall sound is pretty refined though, much more so than the 7236. The 596 brings some punch back but the soundstage is lesser. Will compare more combos later but I really like these tubes, and stopped cursing about the price as soon as I heard them._
   
  I am running the Shuguang Treasure drivers with the above in my WA22.


----------



## imckt

I just ordered pair of IBM brand 5998A in USD 46. Does anyone tried it before?
   
  Just do a quick googling, seems not many post related to it.
   
http://www.diytube.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3663


----------



## Skylab

5998A tubes I have seen are just a 6AS7GA, relabeled.


----------



## hodgjy

Very true with two exceptions.  I have the Sylvania 5998A, which has the typical 6AS7GA bottle, but it has the Sylvania 7236 plates.  The plates look and sound the same between the two. Also, I have the Tung-Sol 5998A,which is the Tung-Sol 7236 in the 6AS7GA bottle.  But as far as IBM and GE 5998As go, they are just rebadged 6AS7GAs.
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> 5998A tubes I have seen are just a 6AS7GA, relabeled.


----------



## 09Challenger

I have a Bottlehead Crack on the way.
   
  In anticipation of it's arrival, I have already started collecting tubes to roll.
   
  So, far I have a GE 6AS7G and a Mullard 6080.
   
  Anyone have any experience with these tubes?
   
  Dave


----------



## imckt

1) Eventually the IBM 5998A is shipped. Let's compare with my RCA 6AS7GA ...
   
  Light brown base is IBM. Black base is RCA.
   
  Bottom part is similar, but the top part is difference. Square getter for 5998A, while circle for 6AS7GA.
   
  Any expert can double confirm IBM 5998A is identical to RCA 6AS7GA?
   
  2) Moreover, I have find a dealer selling National 5998, get a pic from them. This is my first time to know 5998 can be straight bottle. But it really look like IBM 5998A / 6AS7GA.
   
  I have ordered a pair to verify whether this is 5998A instead. Will post the details once delivered.
   
*Comparsion*
   

      
   
*National 5998 pic from seller*


----------



## hodgjy

The National 5998 plates are just 6AS7 plates.  The only "real" 5998 is the Tung-sol.  After that, the numbers get confusing.  Here is my understanding of all the tubes, based on my looking at the plates and hearing them.
  
Plates only, not necessarily bottle shapes:
 Tung-Sol 5998 stands alone.
 IBM 5998 = Tung-Sol 5998
 Chatham 2399 = Tung-Sol 5998.
 Chatham 5998 = Tung-Sol 5998.
 WE 421 = Tung-Sol 5998.
 Arcturus 5998 = Tung-Sol 5998.
 Tung-Sol 5998A = Tung-Sol 7236.
 Sylvania 5998A = Sylvania 7236.
 IBM 5998A = 6AS7 plates.
 GE 5998A = 6AS7 plates.
 National 5998 = 6AS7 plates.


----------



## Skylab

Nice summary. Looks right to me based on my experience. I would only add that I have Tung-Sol 6520's that are clearly Tung-Sol 6AS7G's, but I also have some that are clearly 5998's.

Oh and it's 2399, not 2339


----------



## Beefy

The real confusion comes from the fact that the 5998A, while having 6AS7 plates, also has:
   
  * The lower heater current of the 5998; 2.4A for 5998(A) vs 2.5A for 6AS7
  * The higher amplification factor of the 5998; 5.4-5.5 for 5998(A) vs 2 for 6AS7
  * The higher transconductance of the 5998; 14000-15500 for 5998(A) vs 7000 for 6AS7
   
  References for Tung Sol versions of all tubes:
http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/5/5998A.pdf
http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/5/5998.pdf
http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/6/6AS7G.pdf


----------



## hodgjy

Good catch! 



skylab said:


> Oh and it's 2399, not 2339


----------



## grokit

What about the RCA's, how do they fit into this overview?
   

   
  For instance, is the RCA 6AS7G interchangeable with...
   

   
  ...the RCA 6AS7G A?


----------



## hodgjy

They are the same plate construction and have the same electrical ratings. Theoretically, they should sound the same. Some users claim to hear differences. If this is the result of manufacturing differences, glass bottle shape synergy, or expectation bias, I cannot say. Although, I can clearly hear a difference between an RCA 6080 and an RCA 6AS7G.



grokit said:


> What about the RCA's, how do they fit into this overview?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Skylab

The RCA '6AS7GA" in that pciture is quite obviously a 6080...weird that they labeled it such...


----------



## grokit

Thanks guys. Any comments on how they sound?


----------



## dannie01

Found some GEC 6AS7s on eBay, see HERE if anyone is interested.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





dannie01 said:


> Found some GEC 6AS7s on eBay, see HERE if anyone is interested.


 
   
  I paid 14£ for 1 NOS GEC 6AS7G, these are going for +125£. Crazy


----------



## dannie01

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I paid 14£ for 1 NOS GEC 6AS7G, these are going for +125£. Crazy


 
   





 I bought a pair about 2 years back for the WA22 and cost even higher, ridiculous.


----------



## rosgr63

Some sellers quote crazy prices.


----------



## telecaster

For the tube roller, some photo of 6AS7G/6080:
   
  GE JAN 6AS7G. Impressive tube, good all around. Nice bass, nice treble, excellent mids.

   
  The missile Bendix JAN CEA 6080 WB, very nice sounding, dynamic and big soundstage. Excellent definition.

   
  The GEC 6080 CV2984, rare bird. Best refinement in sound, my prefered tube. Good bass, good definition, incredible imaging.

   
  The RCA 6AS7G from the fifties aka the black plate. Excellent bass.

   
  black plates GE 6AS7G copper rod and non copper rod: Excellent like the RCA BP if not a slight better bass definition than the RCA. It would be hard to differenciate them but I give a slight preference to the copper rod.


----------



## Skylab

The Bendix doesn't get talked about much, it's a rare bird, great tube. Unusual plate structure more like a 6336.


----------



## grokit

I've got a pair of these RCA's incoming, but the lettering is different.


----------



## grokit

Quote:


telecaster said:


> The GEC 6080 CV2984, rare bird. Best refinement in sound, my prefered tube. Good bass, good definition, incredible imaging.


 
   
  I would really like to try these, how do they compare to the globe style, any differences?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The Bendix doesn't get talked about much, it's a rare bird, great tube. Unusual plate structure more like a 6336.


 
  Indeed.
  So far I have identified 4 different types of structures in my Bendix collection.


----------



## john57

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Indeed.
> So far I have identified 4 different types of structures in my Bendix collection.


 
  I was aware of just two types. Solid and slotted plates. First time I heard of two more.


----------



## rosgr63

1. Triangular type plates with Copper Posts
  2. Plates with a Hole and Copper Posts
  3. Plates with a Hole and Steel Posts
  4. Rectangular type plates with Steel Posts.
   
  I think the coolers on top may also be different.
  I'll have to check my tubes.


----------



## telecaster

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Quote:
> 
> I would really like to try these, how do they compare to the globe style, any differences?


 

 I don't have the GEC 6AS7G, but the internal structure seems to be the same. Sonically they may be sounding similar but as far as saying strictly similar? That would have to be tested!


----------



## telecaster

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> 1. Triangular type plates with Copper Posts
> 2. Plates with a Hole and Copper Posts
> 3. Plates with a Hole and Steel Posts
> 4. Rectangular type plates with Steel Posts.
> ...


 

 It's good to know, and did you spotted any differences in their sound signature if you happen to listen to gear that use them?


----------



## grokit

Are these similar or are there major differences?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





telecaster said:


> I don't have the GEC 6AS7G, but the internal structure seems to be the same. Sonically they may be sounding similar but as far as saying strictly similar? That would have to be tested!


 
  The Black Base Osram (MOV) sound slightly different to the Brown Base GEC (MOV)
   
  Oskari has done proper testing he knows better.
   
   
  Quote: 





telecaster said:


> It's good to know, and did you spotted any differences in their sound signature if you happen to listen to gear that use them?


 
  I have 17 Bendix, tried them all briefly but could not spot any differences.
  I must do proper ABX tests to be sure.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> The Black Base Osram (MOV) sound slightly different to the Brown Base GEC (MOV)
> 
> Oskari has done proper testing he knows better.


 
   
  There is a difference between those but they are both very good. I'm happy to say that I also like the GEC (MOV) 6080 which is quite like the later 6AS7G. Generally speaking, I would say that the older the tube, the more relaxed the sound, and I like relaxed as long as it doesn't equal sloppy.
   
  For me it is
   
  black base > brown base > 6080,
   
  others may feel differently. There is, of course, always the question of system synergy and other tubes in the system.


----------



## hodgjy

From my own understanding, they are the same tubes sans the "JAN" designation.  All the "JAN" stamp means if a batch of tubes were hand selected, tested, and approved for military rigor.  I've tried both of these and they sound exactly the same, as they should, because they are the same tube.
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> Are these similar or are there major differences?


----------



## grokit

That's what I was hoping, thanks for the reply hodgjy.


----------



## hodgjy

You're welcome!
   
  There is only one difference in RCA 6AS7G plates that I know of, and it's the black vs. gray plates.  Some claim that the gray plates sound better, but I've tried several tests (not blind) and could not hear one lick of a difference between the colors.
   
  Quote: 





grokit said:


> That's what I was hoping, thanks for the reply hodgjy.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> There is a difference between those but they are both very good. I'm happy to say that I also like the GEC (MOV) 6080 which is quite like the later 6AS7G. Generally speaking, I would say that the older the tube, the more relaxed the sound, and I like relaxed as long as it doesn't equal sloppy.
> 
> For me it is
> 
> ...


 
   
  I could not agree more!


----------



## telecaster

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> From my own understanding, they are the same tubes sans the "JAN" designation.  All the "JAN" stamp means if a batch of tubes were hand selected, tested, and approved for military rigor.  I've tried both of these and they sound exactly the same, as they should, because they are the same tube.


 

 My GE 6AS7G and JAN GE 6AS7G have different bottle shape, not just the JAN marking. Also the internal electrical wired root structure is different. JAN have a slightly shorter and larger bottle shape.


----------



## hodgjy

I don't doubt you at all.  I've looked at several of my RCA and JAN RCA tubes, and they mix and match different bottle shapes and wiring scheme (mainly the insulation).  I think it has to do with the year it was made, the plant it was in, and/or the person making the tube.  It just seems to be a mix and match pattern.  In the end, I couldn't hear one lick of a difference between any of them.
  Quote: 





telecaster said:


> My GE 6AS7G and JAN GE 6AS7G have different bottle shape, not just the JAN marking. Also the internal electrical wired root structure is different. JAN have a slightly shorter and larger bottle shape.


----------



## mrAdrian

Did Tung-sol ever made 6AS7's? I thought they only made 5998's...
   
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110894366336?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1068wt_1396


----------



## Xcalibur255

Yes, they did, and they also made the Chatham branded ones from the late 50's onward.  The best sounding American 6AS7 in my opinion.  There are slight differences in sound between the Tung Sol and Chatham version due to different material usage particularly in the grid posts.  I feel the Chathams are a little more organic and offer slightly more depth, but both are superior to the RCA version to my ears.
   
  That particular 6AS7 in the photo has 5998 plates which makes it a little more complicated.  It could actually be a 5998 re-branded (odd, but the tube is substitutable in most situations), or it could be a re-labeled 6520 which were often made with 5998 anode plates but were 6AS7 tubes electrically.  Either way it is odd to see those plates on a tube with 6AS7G printed on it.  Tung Sol made a normal 6AS7G with readily identifiable 6AS7 style plates.  The tabs at the ends of the plate where they insert into the micas are silver colored with the rest of the plate being black, from about 1960 onward and this makes them very easy to identify from other 6AS7 tubes.


----------



## mrAdrian

Well it's mine~ 
   
  Made me feel kind of special now


----------



## Skylab

Tung-Sol 6AS7G's are among my very favorites.


----------



## mrAdrian

But is the tube on the ebay link a 5998 or a 6as7?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Because of the history with 6520 tubes, it is difficult to know for sure.  Normally you would be sure it was a 5998 by the plate style if not for this, but the 6520 was known to use both 6AS7 and 5998 style plates.  So your tube could be a 5998 or a 6AS7G electrically.  You've found something rather unique.  I think the most likely explanation is that for whatever reason the tube was made as a 6520 but ended up being branded as a 6AS7, possibly during quality screening.  The 6520 was a premium version of a 6AS7G.
   
  The answer should come from listening to the tube.  The 5998 has a different sonic signature from any 6AS7G tube.  It also has higher gain.


----------



## rosgr63

Here is a 50's Tung-Sol 6AS7G Black Plates, Steel Grid Posts
   

   
   
  Here is a 60's Tung-Sol 6AS7G Black Plates, Copper Grid Posts
   

   
   
  I like the both but the RCA 6AS7G is my reference tube.


----------



## mrAdrian

Hmm then I guess mine is probably a mistake given your pics xp Good thing is no matter if its a Tung sol 6as7g or the 5998, they are both a nice sounding tube, right?
   
  Xcalibur you mentioned the 6520, and that it is electrically a 6as7. So I can still use that tube on my DV336 correct?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Yes, you certainly can.  They are quite rare though.
   
  @ rosgr:  I do enjoy the RCAs, they have a very lovely warmth that reminds a person why they got into tubes in the first place.  At the end of the day, though, they are too sloppy in the bass and a little veiled sounding for me, as pleasant as they are tonally.  What the Tung Sols bring to the table is transparency and better signal control.


----------



## john57

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> Yes, you certainly can.  They are quite rare though.
> 
> @ rosgr:  I do enjoy the RCAs, they have a very lovely warmth that reminds a person why they got into tubes in the first place.  At the end of the day, though, they are too sloppy in the bass and a little veiled sounding for me, as pleasant as they are tonally.  What the Tung Sols bring to the table is transparency and better signal control.


 
  I would agree with this statement as it mirrors my experience with the Glenn amp.


----------



## williaty

Is anyone aware of fake/counterfeit GEC 6080WA or 6AS7 tubes? I'm being offered two at a decent price from a seller in Hong Kong but the phrase "decent price" doesn't naturally occur next to "GEC" :lol:


----------



## Skylab

It could be that they are some other tube that has been relabeled. If you can, get a picture and post it here.


----------



## williaty




----------



## Skylab

Those sure look like the real deal to me.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Just wanted to say that there are some rare tubes on sale here...
   
http://www.ebay.com/sch/retailtechforless/m.html?_nkw&_armrs=1&_from&_ipg=25&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2654&_clu=2&_fcid=192&_localstpos&_stpos&gbr=1
   
  Matched pair WE 421A's
  Tung Sol/Chatham 5998's
  Bendix 6080's
  Sylvania 7236's
  GEC 6AS7G (several matched brown bases)
   
  and more...
   
  Want to clear out that I have *no affiliation with the seller*...
   
  Heads up!
   
  - V


----------



## Silent One

Thanks for the heads-up! Been lookin' for some those...


----------



## ValentinHogea

I got me a pair of strong 5998 and Sylvania 7236's.
   
  Maybe even a pair of 421A. But my wallets has a max, so I hope I don't get outbid.


----------



## Skylab

Everyone remember - the WE 421A is just a rebranded TS 5998.  EXACT same tube.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Aside from slightly higher amplification factor and transconductance.  This is probably why people sometimes think they sound better, because they'll be just a tad louder at the same volume than a 5998.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Just wanted to say that there are some rare tubes on sale here...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/retailtechforless/m.html?_nkw&_armrs=1&_from&_ipg=25&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2654&_clu=2&_fcid=192&_localstpos&_stpos&gbr=1
> 
> ...


 
   
  You are so bad Valentin!
  My eyes are hurting, *I AM NOT LOOKING!*


----------



## Skylab

Where did you see that the 421A has higher amplification factor and transconductance than a 5998?


----------



## Xcalibur255

http://www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/421A.pdf
   
  The specifications are a little different.  The 5998 has a mu factor of 5.5 for example and WE is quoting 5.9 for this tube.


----------



## Xcalibur255

http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/5/5998.pdf
   
  Here is the Tung Sol data sheet for the 5998.  The transconductance is 14000 vs. 20000 on the 421A. 
   
  Perhaps they were simply made to different tolerances and the 421A was picked off the line via screening?


----------



## rosgr63

I thought they sounded slightly different, you can see my earlier post (#108).
  Many don't think so which is fine, I respect their opinion, but to me in my system they sound different.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I've never heard one personally, I was just pointing out that there are some electrical differences between the two according to the data sheets, so it isn't quite right to say they're identical.


----------



## zardon

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> I've never heard one personally, I was just pointing out that there are some electrical differences between the two according to the data sheets, so it isn't quite right to say they're identical.


 
  Its a common misconception, they aren't _exactly identical _by construction, but on an audio level, they do sound to me to be identical to 5998 Tung Sol. Not a bad thing however!
   
  its like everything however, collectors love the 421A, because good condition tubes in this class are hard to find now.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> http://tubedata.tubes.se/sheets/127/5/5998.pdf
> 
> Here is the Tung Sol data sheet for the 5998.  The transconductance is 14000 vs. 20000 on the 421A.
> 
> Perhaps they were simply made to different tolerances and the 421A was picked off the line via screening?


 
   
  I think that's it.  They were both made by Tung Sol, for sure. TS might well have made the WE ones to slightly different tolerances, although interestingly WE themselves clearly states that the 5998 and 421A sold by them are equivalent. I had a WE 421A, and it looked 100% identical to some of my TS 5998's - noting of course that not even all TS branded 5998's are completely identical looking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  It's also the case that a tube with slightly higher mu and mohmos might sound different in different designs.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I think that's it.  They were both made by Tung Sol, for sure. TS might well have made the WE ones to slightly different tolerances, although interestingly WE themselves clearly states that the 5998 and 421A sold by them are equivalent. I had a WE 421A, and it looked 100% identical to some of my TS 5998's - noting of course that not even all TS branded 5998's are completely identical looking
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I agree Rob, I am not saying they are very different, only that I can hear a difference in one of my systems.
  Then again I am not very disciplined to carry out detailed and extensive tests.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Hope I will not cause big holes in people's wallets. I for one hope that someone outbids me on the WE421A's... Reflecting it is overkill with both a strong matched pair of Chatham 5998's and 7236's AND WE421A. Especially considering I got a new SS-amp somewhere in Netherlands travelling towards me as we speak.
   
  Impulsive behavior. Ouff...
  Well well "in worst case" (which is not so bad, considering IF i get a pair of WE421A for 112£), noodles (and a big smile 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) next month...
   
  Yes, it's an invitation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I won't raise my max bid. Can't however promise that no other person will find them the upcoming 5 days..
   
  (Mmmm... Listening to NOS Sylvania 6AS7G's now paired with Sylvania 6SJ7GT... yummy... soo smooth...)


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> I agree Rob, I am not saying they are very different, only that I can hear a difference in one of my systems.
> Then again I am not very disciplined to carry out detailed and extensive tests.


 
   
  I'm not surprised you can hear differences, my friend - I have plenty of identical tubes of the same brand and type that sound slightly different!  Such is the nature of decades-old tubes.


----------



## hodgjy

I would venture a guess that if the 421A and the 5998 are truly different, it must be very similar to the Intel Pentium chips in the 1990s.  The chip was designed to run at 66 mhz, but some of them actually ran at 60 mhz.  They hand selected the "premium" 66 mhz chips, even though they were made on the same line with the same materials and tools.  The 421A must be the analog to the 66 mhz chip.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> I would venture a guess that if the 421A and the 5998 are truly different, it must be very similar to the Intel Pentium chips in the 1990s.  The chip was designed to run at 66 mhz, but some of them actually ran at 60 mhz.  They hand selected the "premium" 66 mhz chips, even though they were made on the same line with the same materials and tools.  The 421A must be the analog to the 66 mhz chip.


 

 That's still done today actually.  It's called binning.  It's especially true of the AMD fabs.  The chips that test better get binned for higher stock clock speeds.
   
  You probably already knew that since you're dropping old PC trivia, but the geek in me can't resist posting it anyway.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I'm not surprised you can hear differences, my friend - I have plenty of identical tubes of the same brand and type that sound slightly different!  Such is the nature of decades-old tubes.


 
   Indeed Rob,
   
  I have been able to identify differences between different batches of Sylvania 6SN7W's and I was shocked, I couldn't believe it at first.
  So maybe it is my tubes that are different.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Hope I will not cause big holes in people's wallets. I for one hope that someone outbids me on the WE421A's... Reflecting it is overkill with both a strong matched pair of Chatham 5998's and 7236's AND WE421A. Especially considering I got a new SS-amp somewhere in Netherlands travelling towards me as we speak.
> 
> Impulsive behavior. Ouff...
> Well well "in worst case" (which is not so bad, considering IF i get a pair of WE421A for 112£), noodles (and a big smile
> ...


 
   
  Does that mean you are moving away from tubes?
   
  BTW which amp is it?


----------



## hodgjy

I knew it was done, but I was unaware it is as prevalent as you suggest.  I just remember very specifically when Intel went into PR damage control back in the early 90s when the Pentiums were coming out at 60 mhz in the direct face of competition from the "new" PowerPC architecture and the newly launched 486DX4 100 mhz.
  Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> That's still done today actually.  It's called binning.  It's especially true of the AMD fabs.  The chips that test better get binned for higher stock clock speeds.
> 
> You probably already knew that since you're dropping old PC trivia, but the geek in me can't resist posting it anyway.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Does that mean you are moving away from tubes?
> 
> BTW which amp is it?


 
  Naawww.. The La Figaro 339 opened up a new world. Love the point-to-point soldering, and possibility to upgrade by myself. Interested in the extra bypass-capacitor-bank that telecaster did.
   
  Back to the point it's a HA-160D, got a great price for it. 750 USD incl. shipping. Which is 5200 SEK (and the list price new in Sweden is 12000 SEK), so quite a bargain.
   
  I think I will double-couple them. PC via USB to HA-160D (via pre-amp) to La Figaro 339. Thus, I can choose. More SS (I think the LCD-2 will appericiate the extra gain/juice) or hell-of-a-lot of tube-rolling-possibilities with the 5998/7236 + 5693 coming up. If the La Figaro can drive the LCD-2 equally (or better) then the HA-160D will become the second (bedroom) rig.
   
  Everything (almost), is so expensive here in the EU. Schiit, Bottlehead, Burson, Audez'e's etc... Only way to go is second hand.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Naawww.. The La Figaro 339 opened up a new world. Love the point-to-point soldering, and possibility to upgrade by myself. Interested in the extra bypass-capacitor-bank that telecaster did.
> 
> Back to the point it's a HA-160D, got a great price for it. 750 USD incl. shipping. Which is 5200 SEK (and the list price new in Sweden is 12000 SEK), so quite a bargain.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Congratulations, very nice indeed.
  I would also grab one of the relabeled Bendix 6080, it's a must for any collection.
   
  As for EU prices, they are ridiculous, so 2nd hand is an excellent choice.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Congratulations, very nice indeed.
> I would also grab one of the relabeled Bendix 6080, it's a must for any collection.
> 
> As for EU prices, they are ridiculous, so 2nd hand is an excellent choice.


 
   
  Thanks! Audiophilia is a dangerous disease... Well well, gotta run amok before I get married and the first kid is on the way.. 
   
  I have a set of Chatham 6080WB which I'm not that terribly fond of. Is the difference worth it? Felt a bit disappointed when listening to them...
   
  - V


----------



## rosgr63

Just look at the Bendix construction with the braces etc.
   
  Then again sound is very personal, I am only suggesting it because the seller's price is right.
   
  Then again if you are getting married soon and with such a wonderful gift as akid on the way, I wouldn't buy any more tubes you have loads.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Thanks! Audiophilia is a dangerous disease... Well well, gotta run amok before I get married and the first kid is on the way..
> 
> I have a set of Chatham 6080WB which I'm not that terribly fond of. Is the difference worth it? Felt a bit disappointed when listening to them...
> 
> - V


 
  After some PMs with Stavros, we found that they were indeed Bendix'es:
   
   

   
  And after 2 days of Sylvania 6AS7G, i put them in. Crisp mids, tight bass. Oooh, these are good for more "demanding" modern music...I like!


----------



## john57

The Bendix'es comes in two flavors, solid plates or slotted plates. I have both. I perfered the slotted plate and even managed to get a quad set for my new amp.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi John that's very good news, well done.
  Here are some different construction details.
  The solid plates can be of rectangular or triangular shape, looking at the cross section that is.
  The grid posts can be copper or steel.
  The grid coolers can be black or shiny.
  I also suspect that the braces may even be different.
   
   
  EDIT: Valentin's pair are an early production from what I can see.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Even with better pricing Stateside, I prefer B-stock or Pre-Owned (ok, used 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Imagine, some companies like Wyred4Sound sell B-stock with the full 3 year warranty. Cosmetics considered , this is when you _run _not walk to the cash register!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





john57 said:


> The Bendix'es comes in two flavors, solid plates or slotted plates. I have both. I perfered the slotted plate and even managed to get a quad set for my new amp.


 
   
  You got a new amp?! Please share.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Even with better pricing Stateside, I prefer B-stock or Pre-Owned (ok, used
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Damn you Americans! To quote Geroge Carlin, "_The only white people we've ever attacked are the germans. They wanted to dominate the world. bull _ shiet. That's our job._" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I've been looking like crazy for a matched pair of 5998's in Europe. So I'm so satisfied right now...


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yes sir! Got my DAC-1 B-stock and change left over for mods.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Yes sir! Got my DAC-1 B-stock and change left over for mods.


 
  How much did you pay for it?
   
  - V


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Approximately $645. The USB interface was only 16/44.1 kHz, not 24/96 kHz and was reflected in price. But I use Coax via a USB bridge, so didn't need to spend any more cash there. Then spent another $150 to upgrade the DAC-1 (Digital board; Low ESR "Super Caps" like the DAC-2 has). 
   
  And still had money left over for food, gas and music!


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Approximately $645. The USB interface was only 16/44.1 kHz, not 24/96 kHz and was reflected in price. But I use Coax via a USB bridge, so didn't need to spend any more cash there. Then spent another $150 to upgrade the DAC-1 (Digital board; Low ESR "Super Caps" like the DAC-2 has).
> 
> And still had money left over for food, gas and music!


 
  Sounds great! Second hand is the key for my hobby too. It's hard with rare amps (such as the La Figaro 339) or Custom IEMs, but hey... Pretty much the rest is all about patience and finding the win-win-deals 
   
  It's very interesting that no one is bidding on the WE421A's... I might end up winning them for cheaper than I paid for the strong 5998's... Hmmms.. Is Lady Luck smiling at me?


----------



## rosgr63

Early days still, just wait it'll end up much higher.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Early days still, just wait it'll end up much higher.


 
   
  (Un-)fortunately... You're probably right... One part hopes that I get them <150£ another part hopes that I give up and they end up going for 300£+ and I won't regret anything...


----------



## john57

I could get a quad set of NOS TUNG SOL 5998 tubes but it would quite costly and my Bendix set is cheaper. I already have three other quad sets on hand. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 More to come.


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Where did you see that the 421A has higher amplification factor and transconductance than a 5998?


 
   
  Its all in the respective datasheets. The 421A does indeed have higher amplification and transconductance than the 5998(A).
   
  Here is a post I made earlier with 421A info added to that for 6AS7G and 5998(A):
   
  Quote: 





beefy said:


> The real confusion comes from the fact that the 5998A, while having 6AS7 plates, also has:
> 
> * The lower heater current of the 5998; 2.4A for 5998(A) vs 2.5A for 6AS7     *(2.4A for 421A, same as 5998(A))*
> * The higher amplification factor of the 5998; 5.4-5.5 for 5998(A) vs 2 for 6AS7     *(6.1 for 421A, higher than 5998(A))*
> ...


 
   
  The similarities are enough that the 421A is almost certainly just a cherry-picked 5998.
   
  But I should also point out again that the vast differences between the 5998A and the 6AS7G indicate that they are *not* the same tube as you commonly suggest.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





beefy said:


> But I should also point out again that the vast differences between the 5998A and the 6AS7G indicate that they are *not* the same tube as you commonly suggest.


 
   
  It's not that the 5998A and 6AS7G(A) are the same electrically - it's that they feature the same construction, which is not the same as the 5998. Look at the GE 5998A - it's clearly identical construction to their 6AS7GA.  Not sure what they do exactly to make it spec like a 5998.


----------



## ValentinHogea

I have a question...
   
  Since one of my RCA Reds arrived broken whilst my 5998's and 7236's arrived from another source I was forced to use my older driver tubes,
  Black Metal Svetlanas "6SJ7"-wannabe's and Sylvania 6SJ7GT
   
  So my first round of listening was 6SJ7GT + 5998's .... Mmm... Fantastic sound. Albeit not that much gain that I was expecting. I was running the amp at 9 to 10 o'clock. Wide, liqud soundstage and magical texture in the bass... When I tried to switch to the Svetlanas, which seem to have more gain than the Sylvania's, the sound distorted. Like a soft fuzz/overdrive-effect for guitars (I'm an electric guitarist). I was a bit shocked and thought that I had somehow broken the 5998's. Switched back to 6SJ7GT. No problem.
   
  Weird.
   
  Tried the 7236's, sound great with both the 6SJ7GT and Svetlana "6SJ7". Actually better with the Svetlanas. Insane gain. Really great bass quality and quantity. Almost too loud at 7'o'clock. Not the same magic mids and wide soundstage as 5998's, but not that shabby either. Great for modern music.
   
  Anyways..
   
  Why did the 5998's behave like that with the "6SJ7's"?


----------



## Xcalibur255

This was reported in the Woo owners thread a couple of times too, and we never really came to any conclusion about what was causing it.  The prevailing theory is that the drive tubes might be getting old or weakening in emission and aren't quite cutting the mustard for properly driving the 5998 where as they might still be up to the task of driving a 7236.  If the internal resistance of the 5998 is lower than the 7236 then it would be more demanding of the input tube driving it.  That's just one theory, and based on my pretty shallow knowledge of tubes so take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Skylab

The 5998 and 7236 are slightly different, but only slightly:

http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/5998_TS.PDF
http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/7236_TS.PDF

From looking at the operating parameters, it's hard to tell what might be the potential interaction issue. Hard to know, though, unless you know what the diffence between a true 6SJ7 and the Svetlana is.


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The 5998 and 7236 are slightly different, but only slightly:


 
   
  The 7236 is a computer rated 5998*A*.


----------



## Neogeo333

And I thought the 5998A is the computer version of the 5998?


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





neogeo333 said:


> And I thought the 5998A is the computer version of the 5998?


 
   
  No. They are electrically very similar, but the 5998A has plates that look more like the 6AS7, not the dimpled plates of the 5998.
   
  Its actually pretty funny, because I have seen MANY people say how much they dislike the 5998A, but love the 7236, and they are the same damn tube.


----------



## Skylab

So Beefy what is your take on the 2399? I have never been able to fond a data sheet on it. Internals appear identical to the 5998. I've read speculation that it is a 5998 in construction but a 6AS7 in specs. But this I doubt, because I have a bunch of 6520's that are 5998 internals but 6AS7 specs. So exactly what the 2399 is eludes me. Thoughts?


----------



## Xcalibur255

My 2399 most definitely sounded like a 5998, at least it did when they weren't humming.  Just a touch warmer because of the copper grid posts.  The difference in gain and presentation would have been pretty clear if it was a 6AS7 electrically.  I think the 6520 is the more interesting specimen personally since they used both plate styles.


----------



## Beefy

Never seen anything to indicate the 2399 is not just a relabelled 5998. No personal experience though.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah, what it's hard to figure is if a 2399 is just a relabeled 5998...why bother?


----------



## Xcalibur255

The copper grid posts is the only difference construction-wise that I could identify.  All the Chatham 6AS7Gs have this too so it seemed to be the one thing they singled out to make the tube more "premium" over the Tung Sol.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

Quote: 





valentinhogea said:


> I have a question...
> 
> Since one of my RCA Reds arrived broken whilst my 5998's and 7236's arrived from another source I was forced to use my older driver tubes,
> Black Metal Svetlanas "6SJ7"-wannabe's and Sylvania 6SJ7GT
> ...


 

 It's funny, that's exactly how I felt hearing my TungSol 5998s (non-A) in my WA2, but in my case no matter what driver I tried (besides the sputtering on startup issue I had with at least one tube). I thought they might be faulty because of that issue, and that it maybe carried over into the sound quality even after they were warmed up and otherwise quiet.
   
  And like you, my well-matched pair of Sylvania 7236 sounded consistently and more importantly noticeably better to my usually not-so-critical ears in the same setup...
   
  I have put the 5998s now in my very new WA22 and cannot comment on it yet, but they'll be driven by a pair of highest grade Psvane CV181-T so hopefully that's enough power to drive them properly because I can't think of what else would provide much more...


----------



## Xcalibur255

FWIW I've driven the 5998 with over a dozen kinds of GT, GTA and GTB 6SN7, along with various other tubes such as a 6AH7, 6E6, and 6BL7.  I never experienced distortion or a sense of weak drive with any of those tubes in front of the 5998.  I think this sort of problem is very circuit/amp dependent.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Just received working 5693's now. Mmm.. Fantastic.
   
  This led me to another question. Why are there no "premium"-manufacturers of 6080/5998/7236-etc such as Shunguang? Are they that uncommon in audio hi-fi?
  A beginners question, but highly warranted considering the eBay-status on 5998's etc...
   
  Tx,


----------



## Xcalibur255

These are voltage regulating tubes, they were never intended for audio service.  They are very popular in OTL designs because they are one of the very few tubes with low enough internal plate resistance that they can drive the load (the headphones) directly without having to use an output transformer.  Most tubes have resistance in measuring in the thousands of ohms so if you tried to drive the load directly off the plates very little power would transfer which is why transformers are used in most tube amps to couple the output tube to the load and provide impedance matching.
   
  New tube makers are interesting in bringing back popular or successful classic audio tubes, where as the 6080 family and OTL amp designs in general are considered rather niche I think even though they are very successful designs and have some of the best bang for the buck in terms of sound quality.


----------



## Skylab

Not only that, but current tube makers are making tubes which can fetch a decent buck, which means a tube like the 6SN7 or 12AX7, where the NOS varieties are often very pricey. With nice RCA 6AS7's easy to get at $15, and 6080's more like $10, there is no incentive to make new ones of these, especially given the size of them.


----------



## wuwhere

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Not only that, but current tube makers are making tubes which can fetch a decent buck, which means a tube like the 6SN7 or 12AX7, where the NOS varieties are often very pricey. With nice RCA 6AS7's easy to get at $15, and 6080's more like $10, there is no incentive to make new ones of these, especially given the size of them.


 
   
  Absolutely, tubes are expensive even the new reissues. 4 matched Genalex 12ax7 reissues can easily cost over $100. 4 matched Genalex gold lion kt88 reissues are over $200. And these are ebay prices.


----------



## rosgr63

Some makers still use the 6AS7G for some of the best amps around.


----------



## Silent One

If I could just find a pair of TS5998/Chatham's quiet and fairly priced..._more concerned with the former than the latter._


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think it could be said that OTL amps are good in spite of the tubes they are required to use, not because of them,  due to the inherent advantages of the circuit design.  That doesn't mean the 6AS7 is a bad tube of course,just that if you are talking purely about linearity there are better ones for audio duty.
   
  I've heard the AtmaShere amps are very good sounding.  It's a good thing there are so many Russian 6AS7 around, I couldn't imagine what it would take to get matching sets for those things otherwise.  The MA-3 uses _eighty four_ 6AS7 tubes.  I don't even want to imagine the sort of heat it produces.


----------



## rosgr63

Xcalibur I couldn't agree more.
  Even though the 6AS7G is not an audio tube it can still sound great in the right amp.
  Plus there is a huge variety to choose from.
  Same story as with the 6SN7.
  In SET amps a lot depends on the quality of the output transformer.
  Today's transformers are nowhere near as good as the vintage ones.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Anyone know anything of United Electron 6AS7(G)?
   
  How do they sound? Are they really made in the UK? What is a quad matched set worth?


----------



## hodgjy

My understanding is they are rebadges. They could be GE made in the USA, so that's what they should be priced as. I could be wrong.....



valentinhogea said:


> Anyone know anything of United Electron 6AS7(G)?
> 
> How do they sound? Are they really made in the UK? What is a quad matched set worth?


----------



## ValentinHogea

That's what they look like... Any new clues?


----------



## hodgjy

That looks like a Svetlana.


----------



## Silent One

Looks like my Svetlana which has printed on it "Made in Germany."


----------



## Skylab

That tube is definitely Russian, as was the United Electron 6AS7G I once had.


----------



## ValentinHogea

Hi guys!
   
  Thanks alot for the help.The fantastic "deal" for a quad matched pair for 60€ wasn't as appealing when they turned out to be russian rebrands.


----------



## Ultrainferno

How much does a NOS pair of 2399/5998 matched tubes cost nowadays?


----------



## Skylab

vacuumtubes.net has them for $85 each.
   
  http://vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html


----------



## Beefy

Yeah, $85 for a 5998 is insane. I picked up a pair for less than that not too long ago. And while they do sound slightly better than the typical 6AS7 in my Bottlehead Crack, they don't sound $45 a pop better......


----------



## Skylab

Agreed.  I was lucky enough to pick up a bunch of these several years back when they were easy to get for $20 each.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Good thing then I still have ten 2399 in my stock. I was just wondering. Thanks Skylab.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Good thing then I still have ten 2399 in my stock. I was just wondering. Thanks Skylab.


 
   
  I tend to like your stock - you be having things. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 May have to send you a PM sometime Saturday afternoon regarding your most wonderful stock. And my lonely vacuum tube amp.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





silent one said:


> I tend to like your stock - you be having things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Well this is actually my personal stock, I only have 6AS7G based amps


----------



## Xcalibur255

Ten 2399 tubes are a good thing to have.  If you really like their sound you should consider getting an amp modified to bias the tube ideally.  You'll be surprised at how much better they can sound when they are operating at their most linear operating point.  IMO if you actually design the power supply of the amp to accommodate the 5998/2399 it puts the tube in another league from the 6AS7G all together.


----------



## dminches

How do the TS 5998s with green letters on the base differ from the ones with white print (other than the print color, of course)?


----------



## Ultrainferno

No difference as far as I know. They should all have the same construction


----------



## hifimanrookie

skylab said:


> vacuumtubes.net has them for $85 each.
> 
> http://vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html



I know..i reserved a pair with them..  as it looks they are getting more expensive every day..and harder to get i understand...anyone knows how they compare to bendix 6080wb with graphite blocks? i just got one pair in...see inserted pics.. ****...my ipad dont let me insert pics directly from my photos. Into this post ..What..it asks for an url..seriously.this is nuts! .i am getting more and more doubts about ever getting this peeeeep...ipad 3! :mad:

Ps. Hey .ultrainferno..its a pity we didnt talk a lot at the meet a week ago.. I would loved to talk to u..hearing u have so much experience with tubes..  maybe next year..


----------



## dminches

Why are these $400? http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Pair-Western-Electric-421A-5998-6AS7-black-plates-tubes-/110963969063?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item19d5f7cc27


----------



## hifimanrookie

dminches said:


> Why are these $400? http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Pair-Western-Electric-421A-5998-6AS7-black-plates-tubes-/110963969063?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item19d5f7cc27



I read a review concerning 6as7g's that those as the best..even better then 5998's or bendix 6080wb with those slotted graphite blocks..unluckily i have the 6080wb solid graphite blocked type and allthough these are one of the best i read  the slotted ones are more full bodied and more inherent in sound..

Thats why the price is so high..i was looking also at same ebay..but omg that price! 

The hierargy according to him is (if my memory is right):

Tier 1
WE 421A
5998

Tier 2
6080wb slotted graphite (tung sol/bendix branded)
6080wb solid graphite (chatham branded)
Sylivania's (forgot model sorry)

Tier 3
 6080wb black blocks ( raytheon)

And so and so on

Am sure he didnt test all tubes..as he didnt mention my svetlana's but those i can remember
L
Check for review western electric A421 tubes on google and i believe u will find this review easy..if ur interested

Once again..those are not my findings..hope to receive my NOS NIB pair 5998's soon (also very expensive!) and my cheaply rca 5693 reds ..i am really curious how they will sound compared to my svetlana and the bendix together with my tung sol gt mesh plates


----------



## dminches

Thanks.  I will read it.  I am just now learning about this class of tubes.


----------



## hifimanrookie

dminches said:


> Thanks.  I will read it.  I am just now learning about this class of tubes.




Me too


----------



## Ultrainferno

I wouldnt say that info is fully correct. It has been explained several times what the 421a are. I am on the blackberry now so I will try to post later if I dont forget


----------



## hifimanrookie

ultrainferno said:


> I wouldnt say that info is fully correct. It has been explained several times what the 421a are. I am on the blackberry now so I will try to post later if I dont forget



Ur the specialist..does it has to do with the 421a being some kind of rebranded/ improved 5998? I read that also somewhere i think..

Pls explain..we are all ears..as seriously..those prices are absurd..


----------



## Ultrainferno

All the info is actually in this thread, try to do a search


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


ultrainferno said:


> All the info is actually in this thread, try to do a search




Thanks for the tip..i will do that..


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Why are these $400? http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Pair-Western-Electric-421A-5998-6AS7-black-plates-tubes-/110963969063?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item19d5f7cc27


 
   
   
  They say Western Electric! So they must be great


----------



## hifimanrookie

guys i need ur help..while waiting for my 5998 and 5693's reds ..a friend of mine is willing to sell me his collection of tubes they are all matched NOS sets.

for the drivers he wants 50 euro per pair and for the powertubes he wants 65 euro per pair

This is what he has for me..i can buy each pair seperately also


nos in box matchet pairs : 
power
 Rca 6as7G uit 1953
Ge 6as7g
chatham 6as7G

signal 
silvania 6sj7gt (metal base mesh plate)
philips 6sj7wgt (metal base mesh plate)
philips miniwatt 6sj7gt (made by mullard) mesh plate
rca 5693 (red hot!)

signal used but tested 80% + 
rca 6sj7
ken rad 6sj7
ge 6sj7

Can u pls advice which ones are worth to buy

Thanks guys ur the advice and help

For ur info..i will be using them with a he500


----------



## Skylab

Go for the Chatham 6AS7G and the Sylvania 6SJ7GT.


----------



## hifimanrookie

[/LIST]


skylab said:


> Go for the Chatham 6AS7G and the Sylvania 6SJ7GT.



Thanks!


----------



## Ultrainferno

I love my Chathams, too bad I can't find a new good nos pair for a reasonable price


----------



## Skylab

What's reasonable? There is one on eBay right now for $20...


----------



## Ultrainferno

Yes I saw, but I'd like tobuy a pair. I think 20 for 1 is still reasonable. But ebay...


----------



## BmWr75

There is one less there now.  Thanks for the heads-up Skylab.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah with original box and everything you guys are lucky I didn't just buy it myself! But I have like a dozen already...


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


skylab said:


> Yeah with original box and everything you guys are lucky I didn't just buy it myself! But I have like a dozen already...



Lucky me i found a different source for the chathams then..lolz..  thanks skylab for ur advice


----------



## Ultrainferno

My recent bought 6H13C Russian tubes just arrived, I tried on all of my 6AS7G based amps but these damn things just won't fit, impossible fit. I'm puzzled


----------



## Skylab

Won't fit how? Shouldn't be a problem, although I confess I don't really care for those Russians much.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Won't fit how? Shouldn't be a problem, although I confess I don't really care for those Russians much.


 
   
  I just got curious and wanted to give them a listen, but that's not going to happen...
  Seems like the pins just are too fart apart, impossible to get into the Crack, WA2 or 339. I can wiggle all I want, they're not going in.


----------



## Skylab

Not worth wrecking your tube sockets for, that's for certain.


----------



## rosgr63

Do you have any socket savers?
   
  Try polishing them down with a non metal nail file.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Do you have any socket savers?
> 
> Try polishing them down with a non metal nail file.


 
   
  Do socke savers always have to be screwed fix?


----------



## rosgr63

Not all of them, Glenn makes them for me.
   
  The ones I use are like this:


----------



## Silent One

With all the Plug & Play I have going, I'd best order some before I displace a socket.


----------



## john57

I never had trouble with the Russia 6H13C tubes fitting in with the tube sockets. I would agree to get socket savers and I have both types, one that you can screw in like for tube testers.


----------



## Ultrainferno

My socket savers arrived and guess what, the russian tubes fit without any problem. I'm even more puzzled now. Havent listened to them yet though.

The amps look horrible with the socket savers but I'd rather wear out the savers than the amps socket


----------



## GrindingThud

I'm using =C= in my new to me WA3. Sounds far better than the run of the mill 6080, quiet, dynamic, makes me enjoy the music vs listening to the tubes.


----------



## Greed

Looking for a good price on some TS 5998s, to stock up. Are these any good? http://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-5998-WE-421-Power-Audio-Tube-FREE-SHIP-US-48-/190672251017?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2c64f3a889
   
  Seem rather cheap, so I'm not sure they are... or even legit. Thanks!


----------



## ValentinHogea

Those aren't 5998's.
   
  Those are regular 6080's...


----------



## ValentinHogea

There are different family's and types...
  This is a quick "generalisation", and a combination of my opinion after trying a lot of them, and the written consensus.
   
*6AS7-family (ST-bottle/"Coke" bottle):*
  Good "normal priced" tube: RCA Black Plates 6AS7(g)
  "Best" expensive tube: GEC CV2523 (6AS7G)
   
*6080-family (Smaller bottle)*
  Normal-priced.. buttloads. Sylvania 6080, those RCA 6080 you showed etc...
  Expensive tubes: "Bendix" 6080WB
   
*5998-family (ST-bottle) ("higher gain")*:
  Chatham Electronics/IBM/Tung Sol (all the same, made by Tung Sol) can be called either 2399 / 5998; Western Electric 421A is also made by Tung Sol, but the WE421A are a higher grade, although this is debated
   
*5998A-family (Smaller bottle) ("higher gain")*:
  5998A and 7236 are said to be pretty much the same. The 7236 is a computer-rated 5998A. A bit faster than the 2339/5998, but worth a try


----------



## Greed

> Originally Posted by ValentinHogea View Post
> 
> There are different family's and types...
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info... Tube Rolling is confusing at times, especially when you are looking for vintage tubes and they're no reliable places to find them.


----------



## ValentinHogea

There is a matched pair of GEC's and TS 5998's as well as my "Bendix'es" in the FS-part of the forum...
  A suggestion is starting there. The "best" tubes from each family except for the 5998A-family.
  Pretty rare occasion that all happen to be for sale at the same time. I wasn't as lucky 3-4 months ago when I was tube-chasing.


----------



## ValentinHogea

For the higher gain families:
   
  I might add that 7236's seem to be optimal for high impedance loads, while 5998's better with lower impedance loads. After seeing some RMAA-data of a modded La Figaro 339 (and of course using my ears).


----------



## BackwardPawn

What's a decent, affordable 6AS7G?  I have a pair of the Soviet equivalent on the way but I'm finding people either love or hate this tube.  In case I fall into the hate category, what brand should I look for?  Or someone had suggested the Tube Center where you pay for the type of tube, but don't get to choose the brand.  Has anyone had much luck getting their 6AS7Gs this way?  Thanks.


----------



## Skylab

You can generally get RCA 6AS7G's pretty cheap. And they are quite good. I'm certainly one person who much prefers them over the Russian equivalent.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





skylab said:


> You can generally get RCA 6AS7G's pretty cheap. And they are quite good. I'm certainly one person who much prefers them over the Russian equivalent.


 
   
  I finally got to listen to the Svetlana tubes, I expected much worse. reasonably good midrange compared to the RCA


----------



## zenpunk

I really like my vintage Sovtek 6AS7G, but sadly those are also quickly going up in price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

I have some "Winged C" soviet tubes and find them to be pretty much identical in sound to my Sovteks, to my hearing anyway, and of course with the usual variance and age/burn-in...


----------



## BackwardPawn

I'm pretty sure the Winged Cs and the Sovteks are the same tube.  I'm having trouble finding the RCA tubes cheap.  You can get the Russian tubes cheap, and some other brands, but people on E-bay are asking over $100 a pair for RCA.  You can find them cheaper, but in the description you find it says used rather than NOS (unless the 6080s are the same, with a different shape as there seems to be a much greater supply of them.).


----------



## StalkerAssassin

backwardpawn said:


> I'm having trouble finding the RCA tubes cheap, people on E-bay are asking over $100 a pair for RCA.



Here are selling tube RCA late 50 th and early 51 th, appearance tubes NOS.


----------



## zenpunk

Quote: 





thegrumpyoldman said:


> I have some "Winged C" soviet tubes and find them to be pretty much identical in sound to my Sovteks, to my hearing anyway, and of course with the usual variance and age/burn-in...


 
  Interesting. How can they ask $50 for those :
   

  but only $25 (which is still quite a lot!) for those Russian 6H13C at the Tubestore and other retailers?


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





backwardpawn said:


> I'm pretty sure the Winged Cs and the Sovteks are the same tube.


 
   
  Indeed:
   
  Quote: 





> http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6AS7-Tube-Types/Sovtek-6AS7G:
> 
> 'The Winged "C" 6AS7G / 6H13C tube is the same tube Sovtek relabeled and sold as their own for many years.'


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> Interesting. How can they ask $50 for those :


 
   
  How about $85.80 at New Sensor (aka Sovtek)? [http://www.newsensor.com/ProductHighLight.aspx?ProId=198]


----------



## Ultrainferno

at my local dealer's, the Sovtek/svetlana are the most expensive 6AS7G tubes as well. He says they're the best, so the others brands are cheaper. I'm ok with that


----------



## zenpunk

Quote: 





oskari said:


> How about $85.80 at New Sensor (aka Sovtek)? [http://www.newsensor.com/ProductHighLight.aspx?ProId=198]


 





  I wonder if all those cheap Russian 6AS7G you can still get from the fleebay are just rejects that didn't met certain standard at the factory and that's why many are not impressed by them?
  Then you also have the quite well regarded Billington Gold, which are just hand-picked Russian tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  This tube business is really a minefield!
  Anyway, I decided to only buy tubes from well regarded sellers with up-to-date digital valve tester.


----------



## rosgr63

Even the best tester can't test a tube like an amp does.
   
  The behaviour in circuit is the final criterion.
   
  Even the latest digital testers don't tell the full story.
  I have bought tubes tested on an Amplitrex that developed a problem in circuit very quickly.


----------



## dminches

Right on, Stavros.  Putnak always says, the best tube tester is the equipment you are going to use it in.  As long it is safe to use, listening to it will tell you more than a tester will.


----------



## zenpunk

You might be right but not very practical for most of us. That would involve buying dozens if not hundreds and search for the ones that behave the best? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Few companies such as that one:
http://www.watfordvalves.com/aboutus.asp
  are likely to be me more reliable than the numerous amateurs on fleebay with testers that predate WWII.


----------



## Skylab

Use the tester first to test for leaks and shorts, and then use your amp to determine how good the tube sounds. That's the way, I agree.

You can get winged C 6H13C tubes on eBay NOS, right from Russia, for $25/pair SHIPPED. I'm sure they are generally quite good. I've ordered tubes directly from Russia via eBay on quite a few occasions, with good results,


----------



## zenpunk

"the generally quite good" is the part that concerns me. Buying tubes feels a bit too much like playing the lottery those days.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Sadly, I don't have a tester but I probably would have saved money if I invested in an Amplitrex AT1000 before getting involved with tubes.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> I wonder if all those cheap Russian 6AS7G you can still get from the fleebay are just rejects that didn't met certain standard at the factory and that's why many are not impressed by them?


 
   
  Not true. They are just old stock, lots of it good old stock.
   
  Many are not impressed because of a number of different reasons: taste, hearing, equipment, prejudice, ...
   
  Others like them for similar reasons.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





zenpunk said:


> You might be right but not very practical for most of us. That would involve buying dozens if not hundreds and search for the ones that behave the best?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quite opposite.
  Some sellers use ordinary testers to ensure the tubes are safe and strong and then amp test them to verify they are fine for audio use.
   
  Because a seller uses the latest digital tester doesn't mean you can't trust others as much if not more.


----------



## skeptic

zenpunk said:


> "the generally quite good" is the part that concerns me. Buying tubes feels a bit too much like playing the lottery those days.
> Sadly, I don't have a tester but I probably would have saved money if I invested in an Amplitrex AT1000 before getting involved with tubes.



No doubt about that. It's a roll of the dice every time, especially when you factor in microphonics, emi sensitivities, pin corrosion, etc... E.g. Ive got one JAN 5998 in my stable that produces a random loud "pinging" noise once every few minutes without any apparent cause that I've been able to discern. 

For the same reasons, it's all the more satisfying when you manage to land a deal on a particularly good tube!


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Right on, Stavros.  Putnak always says, the best tube tester is the equipment you are going to use it in.  As long it is safe to use, listening to it will tell you more than a tester will.


 
   
  I've learned the hard (Expensive) way!


----------



## Greed

So... Just a question about availability. I've been searching for some Tung-Sol 5998 tubes and I can't seem to find any at a decent price. Is there any similar sounding tubes to the TS5998s that are reasonably priced and in steady stock? Thanks!


----------



## dminches

What price are you looking for?


----------



## Greed

Quote: 





dminches said:


> What price are you looking for?


 

 Well.. I've seen matched pair of TS5998s recently going for 180ish, but also seem them go for more outrageous prices like 350. Honestly my wallet is hurting right now, so I would like to get some good tubes for under 100 for a pair, but I'm not sure if that's wishful thinking or not. Still quite new to the tube world. Thanks!


----------



## Xcalibur255

If you haven't tried the Chatham 6AS7G you might want to start there.


----------



## synthmad

Just saw that LANGREX (UK) has some 5998s up on ebay:
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/5998-TUNG-SOL-USA-GRADE-1-/271079372750?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item3f1d96f7ce
   
  I've already got enough for now...
   
  -Mark


----------



## Greed

xcalibur255 said:


> If you haven't tried the Chatham 6AS7G you might want to start there.




Do they sound similar to the TS5998s?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Yes and no.  The 5998 is really its own thing, especially when they are biased correctly.  The Chathams are good bang for the buck, they sound better than =C= and RCA 6AS7s (IMO of course) but are still affordably priced  unlike the 5998, 7236 and GEC 6AS7Gs.  You might be satisfied with them and not have to drop the money for the others.  I had no trouble finding pairs under $50 when I got mine.


----------



## Skylab

I also think the Chatham 6AS7G is an excellent sounding tube.


----------



## john57

I have several quad pairs of the Chatham tubes and the are very clear sounding tubes and just a tad brighter than the RCA's.


----------



## Greed

Sounds like I'll try a pair of them then. It's really a damned shame that these vintage tubes are so expensive now. When I bought my WA2, I was lucky enough to get multiple pairs of different vintage tubes included. But now that I have had my amp for awhile, and want to experience the different sounds of tube rolling, it's hard because of the scarce supply and marked up prices. Makes it difficult for us (college kids) to continue rolling.


----------



## BackwardPawn

I have a pair of =C='s on order.  Should be here in the next couple days, actually.  I bought them to replace a bad stock tube (that was incidentally also too bright for my taste).  After reading some reviews, though, I'm thinking I should have stuck to the real thing.  Should I keep the Russian tubes here as a backup set once I ensure they work and order a set of 6AS7Gs or are the Russian tubes worth seeing how I like them first.  I'm thinking I should have a backup set anyway.
   
  Also, the Tube Center said they'd try to fill my request, but wouldn't make promises.  Obviously RCA would be my #1 choice.  What should I ask for if they don't have any available?  Thanks.


----------



## BackwardPawn

Quote: 





stalkerassassin said:


> Here are selling tube RCA late 50 th and early 51 th, appearance tubes NOS.


 
  Unfortunately the seller does say if they are NOS or used.  I suppose I'll email him tomorrow and ask.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





backwardpawn said:


> After reading some reviews, though, I'm thinking I should have stuck to the real thing. Should I keep the Russian tubes here as a backup set once I ensure they work and order a set of 6AS7Gs or are the Russian tubes worth seeing how I like them first.


 
   
  Oh, the prejudice! Read less, listen more!


----------



## BackwardPawn

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Oh, the prejudice! Read less, listen more!


 
  Thanks for putting it in perspective.  I'll give them until Tuesday or Wednesday to get here and see what I think.  There's people out there paying $50 for the same tube because they say SovTec on the box!  If I don't like the sound I'll try to track down some RCA or GEs, but no sense spending more before I've even listened.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Oh, the prejudice! Read less, listen more!


 
   
  Couldn't put it better!


----------



## 2359glenn

You can get four Svetlana =C= 6H13 for $25 from Russia on E-Bay
  That is all the Sovtek is.    I do like the Svetlana 6H13 myself but not for $50 each when you can get them that cheep.


----------



## BackwardPawn

Quote: 





2359glenn said:


> You can get four Svetlana =C= 6H13 for $25 from Russia on E-Bay
> That is all the Sovtek is.    I do like the Svetlana 6H13 myself but not for $50 each when you can get them that cheep.


 
   
  Thats what I did.  I bought a pair of two for $15+shipping.  I could have probably found them a few dollars cheaper, but wanted the fast shipping due to the crackle in my current tube.
   
  I know I sound a little impatient, but I bought my 339 back a couple months ago--then my headphones break and the hurricane closes down the repair shop for a month.  Now I have a bad tube...seems like I'll never get to use it.  They shipped from Moscow on the 29th and Ebay says they should arrive around the 8th.  Nothing today   In hindsight I should have bought from the States since shipping would have been faster.
   
  Just curious, I have two NOS 6H13s coming and a set of Telefunken EF80s on their way.  Does this sound like a good combo?


----------



## GrindingThud

Kickin back to a GE 5998A brown base in my WA3+.... I'm liking this tube quite a bit, it's got solid state like control of things down low while not going all itchy up high. I need to let it cook for a while and let the tunes sink in some more:


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





backwardpawn said:


> Another quick question.  My Russian tubes arrived.  They were shipped out of a tube warehouse in Moscow.  My parents are afraid they may have been scavenged from the Chernobyl exclusion zone and want me to get rid of them.  I think that anything coming into the country from that region would be scanned for radiation by customs.  I realize I paid $10 a tube so its no big loss if I throw them out, but don't really see a reason to.  Any thoughts?


 
   
  I just had to post that here


----------



## zenpunk

Oh my god! radioactive tubes, they supposed to sound the best, even better than the cryogenic ones.


----------



## Skylab

That's so funny! Good thing his parents don't know enough to be concerned about the toxic Mercury that's inside those tubes!!!!


----------



## hifimanrookie

ultrainferno said:


> I finally got to listen to the Svetlana tubes, I expected much worse. reasonably good midrange compared to the RCA



Lolz..u had already listened to them..remember..my 337 had svetlana powertubes on it at the time during the meet..u said u found my amp sounding more ss then tubey..


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Lolz..u had already listened to them..remember..my 337 had svetlana powertubes on it at the time during the meet..u said u found my amp sounding more ss then tubey..


 
   
  Other amp, other sound. This wasn't in a 337 or 339


----------



## hifimanrookie

ultrainferno said:


> Other amp, other sound. This wasn't in a 337 or 339 :wink_face:



Oh ok..  i now have a combo of tungsols 5998 as power and tungsols gt mesh plates as drivers..heaven with my he500's and my new litz copper cable


----------



## Ultrainferno

I want the mesh plates TS 6SJ7GT too to complete the collection for the 339, but I'm too lazy to go to the shop


----------



## hifimanrookie

ultrainferno said:


> I want the mesh plates TS 6SJ7GT too to complete the collection for the 339, but I'm too lazy to go to the shop



I am trying to find a backup pair..but they are hard to find.:mad:


----------



## GrindingThud

Just got a hold of a Chatham 2399 that's rolled into my WA3. What an interesting tube...the sound is so smooth and open, definitely pleasing. In contrast to the 5998A (that I happen to be quite fond of), the 2399 seems slightly more forward in the female vocal range with a bit more mid-bass, while the 5998A comes across very analytical and dynamic. I'm going to have to listen to it with a variety of music. Simon and Garfunkel 'Scarborough Fair' through the 2399 is exceptionally moving. Trifonic 'Lies', not so much and I find much more involving with the 5998A.



xcalibur255 said:


> Ten 2399 tubes are a good thing to have.  If you really like their sound you should consider getting an amp modified to bias the tube ideally.  You'll be surprised at how much better they can sound when they are operating at their most linear operating point.  IMO if you actually design the power supply of the amp to accommodate the 5998/2399 it puts the tube in another league from the 6AS7G all together.


----------



## GrindingThud

Picked up a couple Cetron 7236 and indeed it is a nice sounding tube. I'm going to have to do some comparisons, but I believe it has the deepest soundstage I've encountered amongst the TS5998, GE5998A, JAN5998A, RCA6080, and 6n13s. Almost too deep. Like the TS5998, it's extraordinarily quiet too. Like one of the early posts in the thread....this one also has graffiti on the outside of the plates. 




thaddy said:


> Another vote for the Tungsol 7236.  It's been seeing a lot of playing time in my WA2.


----------



## hodgjy

The Cetron 7236 is a rebranded TS 7236.  The TS 5998A is a non-computer rated TS 7236.  And, yes, it is a wonderful tube.  Enjoy!
   
  Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> Picked up a couple Cetron 7236 and indeed it is a nice sounding tube. I'm going to have to do some comparisons, but I believe it has the deepest soundstage I've encountered amongst the TS5998, GE5998A, JAN5998A, RCA6080, and 6n13s. Almost too deep. Like the TS5998, it's extraordinarily quiet too. Like one of the early posts in the thread....this one also has graffiti on the outside of the plates.


----------



## Skylab

Cetron actually purchased Tung-Sol, or many/most of their tube lines, at one point in the 70's IIRC.


----------



## DefQon

Hi Skylab (Rob).... have you tried the GEC 6AS7's before?


----------



## Skylab

Oh goodness yes.  The GEC 6AS7G with the curvy brown base is my very favorite 6AS7G. Hard to get and expensive when you can, but its a wonderful tube.


----------



## DefQon

Thanks, indeed I have read that brown bases are one, if not the best you can get, expensive it is indeed, $250+ on ebay for 1. Any other 6AS7 you would recommend that would come a close second or third to your current favourite preference while not being as expensive?
   
  Thanks


----------



## Ultrainferno

I wonder if Skylab isn't bored of answering that question by now


----------



## hodgjy

Read this thread. It's a goldmine of information and opinions.



defqon said:


> Thanks, indeed I have read that brown bases are one, if not the best you can get, expensive it is indeed, $250+ on ebay for 1. Any other 6AS7 you would recommend that would come a close second or third to your current favourite preference while not being as expensive?
> 
> Thanks


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> Read this thread. It's a goldmine of information and opinions.


 
   
  I figured I'll get something along the lines such as this....will do, but time is sure precious going through 34 pages of opinions....


----------



## Skylab

Yep, also too precious for me to re-type the same ranking on 6AS7G's repeatedly 
   
  The short answer is after the GEC then the black-plate Tung-Sol / Chatham 6AS7G, followed by the Sylvania black-plate 6AS7G. If we are counting the 5998 then it's right up there with the GEC in most (but not all ) circuits.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yep, also too precious for me to re-type the same ranking on 6AS7G's repeatedly
> 
> The short answer is after the GEC then the *black-plate Tung-Sol / Chatham 6AS7G, followed by the Sylvania black-plate 6AS7G.* If we are counting the 5998 then it's right up there with the GEC in most (but not all ) circuits.


 
   
  Hehe, thanks for that Rob.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> If we are counting the 5998 then it's right up there with the GEC in most (but not all ) circuits.


 
  Also, if you are courageous enough to get your amp's power supply modified to better suit the 5998 then that tube stands well above them all IMHO.


----------



## GrindingThud

Interesting comment on PS, do you mean plate voltage or bias on the tube? When comparing max ratings I did not see much difference across the variants with 5998 at 275V/140mA and 6AS7 around 250V/125mA. In my WA3, the PS sits around 190V depending on the tube. What I did notice was substantially different operating points in my amp when these biased up in the circuit...which I found interesting based on comments people make on how the different tubes "sound". The 6080 and 6N13S biased up around 38mA with 57V on the cathode resistor. 5998A and 7236 settled around 21mA with 32V on the cathode resistor. The 5998 is at the other extreme with only 18.6mA current and 28V on the cathode resistor. Is it possible impressions of tubes 'sound' is dependent on where on the curve its operating? Im thinking I'd like double the current in the 5998 to get it up higher on the curve. I'm looking at putting a CCS vs a resistor for the cathode to do this.



xcalibur255 said:


> Also, if you are courageous enough to get your amp's power supply modified to better suit the 5998 then that tube stands well above them all IMHO.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I meant bias.  The 5998 doesn't get enough current in a 6AS7 circuit.  This tube is wonderfully transparent when you crank up the plate current on it.  Different cathode resistors is the trick that was done to my amp to achieve this.  It is switchable between 6AS7 and 5998 bias.


----------



## GrindingThud

Cool, thanks. Ay idea how hot you're running the 5998? 



xcalibur255 said:


> I meant bias.  The 5998 doesn't get enough current in a 6AS7 circuit.  This tube is wonderfully transparent when you crank up the plate current on it.  Different cathode resistors is the trick that was done to my amp to achieve this.  It is switchable between 6AS7 and 5998 bias.


----------



## zenpunk

Unsurprisingly, my Little Dot MKVI+ runs a lot cooler with 5998 than 6AS7G but anybody would care to explains why the 5998/7236 provide more gain? and how increasing bias would affect the gain? The LD is mainly used for my HE-6 but I also love the sound with my other headphones but it is already borderline too powerful with sensitive cans- listening around 8h30 on the volume pot with JVC DX1000 for example.


----------



## Ultrainferno

There still are 14 8 6 5, 2399 Chatham/tung-Sol tubes for sale in the Woo thread. Just pointing it out


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> There still are 14 8 6 5, 2399 Chatham/tung-Sol tubes for sale in the Woo thread. Just pointing it out


 
  Damn..those are flying out..what price ru asking?


----------



## Skylab

2399's don't exactly grow on trees.
   
  There is some debate over what exactly they are.  I've never seen a data sheet.  It's not in the NJ7P database.  Some people have posited that it's identical to the 5998 (which it does LOOK identical too).  Others have suggested it's a 6AS7G in specification but a 5998 in construction.  I'm not sure we will ever know for sure, unless someone unearths a data sheet.


----------



## GrindingThud

What I do know from measurements in my WA3 is that the 2399 biases up like the 5998 graphs indicate it should....and far from what a 6AS7G should. I'd also like to find a datasheet...google has not come through for me yet.

On another note, I had a 7236 fail in bizarre and epic light show.....glow/flash/arc alternating from plate to plate at a 1Hz rate like the lights on a fire truck. Only did it with the phones in, not cool. I gave it a proper burial. 



skylab said:


> 2399's don't exactly grow on trees.
> 
> There is some debate over what exactly they are.  I've never seen a data sheet.  It's not in the NJ7P database.  Some people have posited that it's identical to the 5998 (which it does LOOK identical too).  Others have suggested it's a 6AS7G in specification but a 5998 in construction.  I'm not sure we will ever know for sure, unless someone unearths a data sheet.


----------



## hodgjy

This is certainly not scientific at all, so take it with a grain of salt.  My WA3 is extremely sensitive to power tubes.  Any slight difference in tubes is audibly noticeable, and so is the overall temperature of the amp when each tube draws differently off the power source.  the 2399 and the TS5998 sounded and felt exactly the same to me.  And my TS5998 tubes also have 2399 written on their plastic base as well.
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> 2399's don't exactly grow on trees.
> 
> There is some debate over what exactly they are.  I've never seen a data sheet.  It's not in the NJ7P database.  Some people have posited that it's identical to the 5998 (which it does LOOK identical too).  Others have suggested it's a 6AS7G in specification but a 5998 in construction.  I'm not sure we will ever know for sure, unless someone unearths a data sheet.


----------



## Skylab

It seems so logical to say that a 2399 is exactly the same as the 5998, but the thing that bugs me is this - if they are the same, why change the number???? Especially given that only Tung-Sol (who by then owned Chatham) ever made either one...


----------



## hodgjy

This is something that I've never been able to reconcile in my mind, either.
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> It seems so logical to say that a 2399 is exactly the same as the 5998, but the thing that bugs me is this - if they are the same, why change the number???? Especially given that only Tung-Sol (who by then owned Chatham) ever made either one...


----------



## GrindingThud

Surely they are not the same, I agree with your reasoning on the numbers. We just don't know what the difference is.......yet 


skylab said:


> It seems so logical to say that a 2399 is exactly the same as the 5998, but the thing that bugs me is this - if they are the same, why change the number???? Especially given that only Tung-Sol (who by then owned Chatham) ever made either one...


----------



## hodgjy

One idea I've been kicking around is the idea of A stock and B stock.  For example, back in the early 1990s when Intel rolled out the new Pentium chips, they were supposed to be clocked at 66 mhz.  However, some didn't clock out like that and clocked in at 60 mhz.  So, we had two chips at two prices, but they were made on the same line at the same time.
   
  It's possible that 2399 was a 5998 that didn't spec out.  If I remember correctly, the 5998 was a popular tube for computers, along with the 7236, so the 2399 would be a good way to still sell that tube as a voltage regulator instead of a computer tube.  TS still sells a product and computer makers have confidence they are getting the right tube.
   
  Just thinking out loud here....


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> One idea I've been kicking around is the idea of A stock and B stock.  For example, back in the early 1990s when Intel rolled out the new Pentium chips, they were supposed to be clocked at 66 mhz.  However, some didn't clock out like that and clocked in at 60 mhz.  So, we had two chips at two prices, but they were made on the same line at the same time.
> 
> It's possible that 2399 was a 5998 that didn't spec out.  If I remember correctly, the 5998 was a popular tube for computers, along with the 7236, so the 2399 would be a good way to still sell that tube as a voltage regulator instead of a computer tube.  TS still sells a product and computer makers have confidence they are getting the right tube.
> 
> Just thinking out loud here....


 
  I know the story of how intel marketed their early pentiums..so it sounds plausible that the 5998-2399 is same situation..its only weird that u cant find any technical info about the 2399 though..as if they destroyed it all...


----------



## Skylab

That's a possibility. I don't recall seeing any "JAN" military 2399's, whereas I do have some JAN-5998.  
   
  Still, I'm inclined to believe there is an electrical difference. My guess is that some big computer maker like Cray came to Tung Sol and said "I need 100,000 of your 5998 tubes but with X more/less of Y", where Y is heater current, plate voltage, etc etc.  
   
  But this is also just wild hypothesizing.


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





skylab said:


> That's a possibility. I don't recall seeing any "JAN" military 2399's, whereas I do have some JAN-5998.
> 
> Still, I'm inclined to believe there is an electrical difference. My guess is that some big computer maker like Cray came to Tung Sol and said "I need 100,000 of your 5998 tubes but with X more/less of Y", where Y is heater current, plate voltage, etc etc.
> 
> But this is also just wild hypothesizing.


 
  Yep thats possible also..a (or more) custom made order for some kind of equipment..Like some big gpu graphic card manufacturers nowadays who get amd radeon's gpu boards with specific layout..different from the amd radeon reference layout..so they can put their own specific (better) coolers on it...
   
  yep.it could be..maybe some hush hush military communications/radar thingie back then? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





As we cant find any info bout them anywhere?


----------



## hodgjy

You may be on to something.  
   
  Although, what I can't get over is that on the bases of my 5998 tubes are the inscribed numbers "3002399" below 5998, and the 5998 printed on the glass itself.  Weird.
   
  We may find an actual Bigfoot before we solve this mystery.
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> That's a possibility. I don't recall seeing any "JAN" military 2399's, whereas I do have some JAN-5998.
> 
> Still, I'm inclined to believe there is an electrical difference. *My guess is that some big computer maker like Cray came to Tung Sol and said "I need 100,000 of your 5998 tubes but with X more/less of Y", where Y is heater current, plate voltage, etc etc.  *
> 
> But this is also just wild hypothesizing.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> You may be on to something.
> 
> Although, what I can't get over is that on the bases of my 5998 tubes *are the inscribed numbers "3002399"* below 5998, and the 5998 printed on the glass itself.  Weird.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just sat down to watch Lakers - Celtics...and feel like speculating! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But, the "3002399" suggests it's a NSN (National Stock Number) for the Military. And as suggested by a few of you, could have been spec'd for a project based on the '5998.' You know how Uncle Sam likes to keep track of parts inventory...


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Damn..those are flying out..what price ru asking?


 
   
  Quote: 





skylab said:


> 2399's don't exactly grow on trees.


 
   
  Exactly, it's a miracle we got hold of 20 of these. IF you don't want to pay incredible ebay prices this is a very good opportunity to own these tubes. As said only 5 are still available. Better hurry


----------



## Beefy

It is most likely that they just labelled them as the 2399 for a specific purpose, but didn't want people to be able to buy a 5998 as a replacement (or vice versa).
   
  EG, for specific equipment with a service contract.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Exactly, it's a miracle we got hold of 20 of these. IF you don't want to pay incredible ebay prices this is a very good opportunity to own these tubes. As said only 5 are still available. Better hurry


 
   
  4 left!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> It seems so logical to say that a 2399 is exactly the same as the 5998, but the thing that bugs me is this - if they are the same, why change the number???? Especially given that only Tung-Sol (who by then owned Chatham) ever made either one...


 

 I mused a while ago that the only difference was that the 2399 has a gold grid where as the 5998 does not.  There are some stability advantages to that making the 2399 a more "premium" tube than the 5998 at a higher manufacturing cost.
   
  I haven't had my 2399s in a while now, I had to throw them out because they were hopelessly microphonic, but that's how I remember it.  I don't want to assert it as concrete fact of course but that's what memory is telling me.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> Cool, thanks. Ay idea how hot you're running the 5998?


 

 We only went up 20mA.  That way if the switch was accidentally left in that position with a 6AS7G in the socket disaster would not ensue.  I did not do the work, I only wish I had that kind of talent.  2359glenn is the person who made the modification and is also the builder of the amp.  If I recall the numbers right the amp is setup for 100mA bias for a 6AS7 and the 5998 biases at 60mA in the same circuit, so the values just moved to 120mA and 80mA respectively with the cathode switch.  I'm not certain if 80mA was the ideal bias for the tube based on the curves or if Glenn decided it was best to maintain safety for the reasons stated above, but that 20mA makes a substantial and immediately noticeable improvement in the sound of the tube.  It actually makes the tube sound _less _harsh and edgy despite being run harder, it just takes on a truthful quality like all great sounding triodes seem to do when they are running well.


----------



## GrindingThud

>Xc Thanks, that's a bit hotter than I was planning. I'll need to look and see if my PS is up to that. Sounds like it is worth trying to get there though.


----------



## GrindingThud




----------



## Xcalibur255

Yeah, one of the nicest things about my amp is the monster mains transformer.  It has lots of reserves so there are no limits on choices.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> 4 left!


 
   
  Make that 2


----------



## Golotripa

Ok I finally made it through the entire thread . It was fun and thank you everybody for your opinions.
   
  I got some Chatham 5998s and RCA 5693s on the way. I was wondering, what other tubes should I look for my La Figaro 339 amp *which tubes have the biggest bass punch and extension? *Or have I already hit the nail on the head with the 5998s?
   
I plan to try:
Chatham/Tung Sol Black Plate 6AS7G
Tung Sol 7236 
  Tung Sol 5998A - maybe
   
  Also plan to try Tung-Sol JAN-CTL 6SJ7GT Mesh Plates as drivers.


----------



## hodgjy

The tubes in bold below are the same tube.  The 7236 is computer rated, whereas the the 5998A is not.
   
  If you want the best bass, you'll want the TS 7236 (or TS 5998A).  The Sylvania 7236 is also good at bass.  If you can find a Sylvania 5998A, that is the same tube as their 7236, but in a different bottle, and also has great bass.
   
  Keep in mind, that only TS and Sylvania have "good" 5998A tubes.  The other ones, like IBM and GE, are completely different and aren't very good.
   
  Quote: 





golotripa said:


> Ok I finally made it through the entire thread . It was fun and thank you everybody for your opinions.
> 
> I got some Chatham 5998s and RCA 5693s on the way. I was wondering, what other tubes should I look for my La Figaro 339 amp *which tubes have the biggest bass punch and extension? *Or have I already hit the nail on the head with the 5998s?
> 
> ...


----------



## Ultrainferno

In my LF339 best bass comes from the RCA 6AS7G and Chatham 6AS7G in combination with the TFK EF80 (with adapter).
  You don't need the 2399/5998/72336 + 5693 combo unless you're using orthos


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





golotripa said:


> Ok I finally made it through the entire thread . It was fun and thank you everybody for your opinions.
> 
> I got some Chatham 5998s and RCA 5693s on the way. I was wondering, what other tubes should I look for my La Figaro 339 amp *which tubes have the biggest bass punch and extension? *Or have I already hit the nail on the head with the 5998s?
> 
> ...


 
  I have the bendix 6080wb with graphite plates also (there are different versions of this tube..the graphite ones are the ones who sound best) ..rare..but very strong tube..lows are very strong!they paired very well with my tung sol sj7gt mesh plates


----------



## Golotripa

Ohh right I see.. Why is it that orthos only require those tubes? .. First time I read that in the 38 pgs lol
   
  I guess I'll look into those combinations for stronger bass and give them a try. All I continually read everywhere is 5998+5693 are the best so I didn't hesitate . The fun of tube rolling. 
   
  So Chatham 6AS7G + TFK EF80 says Ultrainferno, or Hodgjy says TS 7236 + which driver?, or hifimanrookie's Bendix 6080wb with TS SJ7GT mesh plates..
   
  I guess I'll try all combinations and see for myself haha


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





golotripa said:


> Ohh right I see.. Why is it that orthos only require those tubes? .. First time I read that in the 38 pgs lol
> 
> I guess I'll look into those combinations for stronger bass and give them a try. All I continually read everywhere is 5998+5693 are the best so I didn't hesitate . The fun of tube rolling.
> 
> ...


 
  U forgot my favorite pair (skylab also has this as his favorite pair i understand) ts sj7gt mesh plates and the 5998.. For me that gives me all i need for the he500.
  p
  s..i feel sorry for ur wallet soon..


----------



## kramer5150

Does anyone have experience with sylvania 6AS7G?  I read a couple comments and seems they are generally regarded a class lower than TS5998 and RCA6AS7G.  For those of you who agree on that, why and what cans/amp were you using to reach that opinion?
   
  thanks!!


----------



## Skylab

I have a bunch of Sylvania 6AS7Gs and for me they are clearly superior to the RCAs and only just below the TS/Chatham.  Really nice tubes, IMO.


----------



## hodgjy

Although, there has been so much rebadging in the past that I have a hard time keeping all the makes straight in my mind!


----------



## Skylab

I'm only completely positive that RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon and Tung-Sol/Chatham made 6AS7G tubes of the US makers.  I've seen tubes branded GE, Cunningham (probably RCA), and Ken Rad (not sure).


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





kramer5150 said:


> Does anyone have experience with sylvania 6AS7G?  I read a couple comments and seems they are generally regarded a class lower than TS5998 and RCA6AS7G.  For those of you who agree on that, why and what cans/amp were you using to reach that opinion?
> 
> thanks!!


 

 I think there are more Sylvanias that are RCA re-brands than there are actual Sylvania made 6AS7s.


----------



## Skylab

I've see grey-plate 6AS7G's branded Sylvania that I suspect are RCA's. the ones I'm certain are Sylvania made are black plate and look different internally than the RCA's do.


----------



## kramer5150

OK thanks gents..  I'll probably pick up some RCAs then, they seem to be nice and serviceable for the $$$.


----------



## kramer5150

Is it common for these tubes to have glass fragments and dust inside?  I have seen that mentioned on the NOS www retailers.  If the tube tests and performs as it should are small bits of dust and glass inside OK?


----------



## rosgr63

Loose glass isn't a problem.
   
  Other pollutants might cause a leakage if lodged between electrodes.
  If that happens a good shake usually helps. 
   
  Best test them before you put them in your amp.


----------



## hodgjy

In the 6AS7G family, it is quite common.
   
  Quote: 





kramer5150 said:


> Is it common for these tubes to have glass fragments and dust inside?  I have seen that mentioned on the NOS www retailers.  If the tube tests and performs as it should are small bits of dust and glass inside OK?


----------



## Ultrainferno

2399 group buy complete. Thanks everyone!


----------



## GrindingThud

Wow, I've got my bias set at 70mA now and it's like I just got a new amp....extraordinary. 



xcalibur255 said:


> We only went up 20mA.  That way if the switch was accidentally left in that position with a 6AS7G in the socket disaster would not ensue.  I did not do the work, I only wish I had that kind of talent.  2359glenn is the person who made the modification and is also the builder of the amp.  If I recall the numbers right the amp is setup for 100mA bias for a 6AS7 and the 5998 biases at 60mA in the same circuit, so the values just moved to 120mA and 80mA respectively with the cathode switch.  I'm not certain if 80mA was the ideal bias for the tube based on the curves or if Glenn decided it was best to maintain safety for the reasons stated above, but that 20mA makes a substantial and immediately noticeable improvement in the sound of the tube.  It actually makes the tube sound _less_ harsh and edgy despite being run harder, it just takes on a truthful quality like all great sounding triodes seem to do when they are running well.


----------



## rosgr63

Did you make any other changes apart from setting the bias to 70mA?


----------



## GrindingThud

When I first got the amp, I added a Wima MKP10 .1uf as a bypass to the last filter cap in the power supply. That is the only other change to the amp.
Just to clarify, 70 is the bias for both plates combined (keeping apples to apples across amplifier designs from previous posts). Each triode is individually biased at 35mA.
-----
The PS bypass sits right on the 6AS7 tube socket between pins 5 and 8. One side of the heater (pin 8) is grounded and plate pins 2 and 5 are jumpered on the socket to B+ in the stock WA3.
Other than the bypass cap, the only other change is adding a CCS to each cathode in place of the 1.5K cathode bias resistor. To make the mod as simple as possible (and easily reversible) I just clipped the grounds off the cathode resistors and left them hanging in the circuit. The CCS board then has three easy connections to the amp: B+ (right off the tube socket), ground from a nearby existing post, and a wire to the circuit side of the abandoned cathode resistor.



rosgr63 said:


> Did you make any other changes apart from setting the bias to 70mA?


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the valuable and excellent info.


----------



## Golotripa

Hi was wondering, are CEA JAN Bendix 6080WB w graphite plate the same as Tung Sol 6080WB w graphite plate?


----------



## john57

To my knowledge the Tung Sol 6080WB with graphite plate are Bendix.


----------



## GrindingThud

Have not read any mention of the Thomson CSF 6080WA in this thread... Anyone have an opinion on that tube?


----------



## GrindingThud

Bought these cuties the other day. Look similar to the one Golden Monkey posted about earlier in the thread. Canadian GE 6AS7G with copper fins:


----------



## hodgjy

Sweet looking tubes.  How do they sound?


----------



## GrindingThud

They are still in transit and I've not had a chance to listen to them yet. 
 I'll post an update when they show up. 


hodgjy said:


> Sweet looking tubes.  How do they sound?


----------



## GrindingThud

Tubes are in! Aesthetically, they are absolutely beautiful. Clear top, rectangle getter, copper fins....Mmmmm tasty! Rather than write a half page of tube drivel ranting about their warm rendition of an expansive soundstage, and giving me the sensation that I'm sitting amidst animals on the verge of extinction on the Serengeti Plain, I'm going to just say they sound like a quiet 6080. I prefer it to RCA 6080 and winged 6H13C, but not above TS5998 or JAN Sylvania 5998A. I have one JAN Sylvania 5998A I'm in love with and it's my favorite in the WA3 so far. I did just snag a pair of 7802.....with a transconductance of 20K, I have high hopes.
Ray Charles 'give me fever' sounds outstanding....definitely a non fatiguing tube.




hodgjy said:


> Sweet looking tubes.  How do they sound?


----------



## hodgjy

I have also recently discovered the Sylvania 5998A in my WA3.  It's basically a Sylvania 7236 in a different bottle and without the computer rating.  But, it sounds slightly different to my ears.  I like it.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> I have also recently discovered the Sylvania 5998A in my WA3.  It's basically a Sylvania 7236 in a different bottle and without the computer rating.  But, it sounds slightly different to my ears.  I like it.


 
   
  My tube guy gave me a NOS GE 5998a for free, haven't tried it yet. Now I think I'll give it a try


----------



## Skylab

Every GE 5998A I have seen looks like a 6AS7GA, not a 7236.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Damn 
I'll check


----------



## GrindingThud

In reference to the TS 7236, that's what I've seen too. The GE brown base, Sylvania, and their JAN variants of 5998A all look somewhat similar to the Sylvania 7236 and 6AS7GA. The GE have perfectly flat plates and Sylvanias have a crease down the center. However, they all sound most like the Sylvania 7236 and nothing like the 6AS7GA. None look like the TS7236 with box plates. I've also noticed the non JAN to be pretty microphonic and the JAN pretty immune to physical vibration.


skylab said:


> Every GE 5998A I have seen looks like a 6AS7GA, not a 7236.


----------



## GrindingThud

The Amperex 7802s arrived today, pretty interesting tube. Construction is similar to the JAN Chatham 6080WA with the extra supports and metal clips for the micas. It's very 7236 like in presentation, with a lot of detail.  :basshead:


----------



## Xcalibur255

Not just similar but suspiciously identical to I would say.  The Chatham 6080W is a neat looking tube.


----------



## snip3r77

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> The tubes in bold below are the same tube.  The 7236 is computer rated, whereas the the 5998A is not.
> 
> If you want the best bass, you'll want the TS 7236 (or TS 5998A).  The Sylvania 7236 is also good at bass.  If you can find a Sylvania 5998A, that is the same tube as their 7236, but in a different bottle, and also has great bass.
> 
> Keep in mind, that only TS and Sylvania have "good" 5998A tubes.  The other ones, like IBM and GE, are completely different and aren't very good.


 
   
  Are the TS / Sylvania 5998A high up there together with the TS5998 ? Very little differences? 
  Also what does that mean by computer rated?


----------



## john57

Computer rated means that the tubes can handle long idle periods without much cathode "poisoning"as I understand it and long life.


----------



## john57

Did you know that the term _debugging_ was first used to describe the process of removing large insects that were crawling around in the large early tube computers that will short or arc over the tube pins?


----------



## m17xr2b

Is it strange that I prefer the Sylvania 6080GB over the TS5998? The 5998 has much better detail, way larger soundstage and better instrument separation but the 6080GB just has that x factor for me, it's like the artist is performing in front of me pouring his heart out.


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





m17xr2b said:


> Is it strange that I prefer the Sylvania 6080GB over the TS5998? The 5998 has much better detail, way larger soundstage and better instrument separation but the 6080GB just has that x factor for me, it's like the artist is performing in front of me pouring his heart out.


 
   
   
  It's not strange at all.
  Different people have different preferences.
  The way tubes sound depends on the circuit/amp design and system synergy.


----------



## zenpunk

I bought some RCA 6080 on a whim from fleeBay for next to nothing and I absolutely love those. I very slightly preferred the TS5998 but I paid 10 times more for those.


----------



## EraserXIV

My Crack came stock with a RCA 6080, it's actually pretty good. I think I prefer it to the RCA 6AS7G that I have. I have a TS5998 coming in on Friday so we'll see how they hold up.
   
  There was a listing on fleebay for ten assorted 6AS7G's and one TS5998 for around $95 BIN. Hesitated for a bit because the seller didn't list any test values, and then it disappeared 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Would have been fun rolling those tubes to see the differences.


----------



## zenpunk

The RCA I got and I can recommends without hesitations are those ones:


----------



## EraserXIV

I think that's a 6080WA, not sure the difference from the plain 6080


----------



## EraserXIV

Came home and was pleasantly surprised, TS5998's came early 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Coming from the RCA 6AS7G, there's a new whole layer of detail yet still very smooth. They're dead quiet too.


----------



## kramer5150

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> Came home and was pleasantly surprised, TS5998's came early
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah the TS5998 is a really SWEET sounding tube.  I have heard others call it bass-lean and "solid state" sounding, which I think it totally bogus.  Its loaded with even order THD in the midrange/vocals, and it has a sense of sub-bass resonance that I have only heard in $1500+ tube amps and electrostats.  It really transforms the 337 into a whole nother' league, with TS mesh plate drivers.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

+1


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> Came home and was pleasantly surprised, TS5998's came early
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Where did you "source" the Tung-Sol's, if I may ask?


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





kramer5150 said:


> Yeah the TS5998 is a really SWEET sounding tube.  I have heard others call it bass-lean and "solid state" sounding, which I think it totally bogus.  Its loaded with even order THD in the midrange/vocals, and it has a sense of sub-bass resonance that I have only heard in $1500+ tube amps and electrostats.  It really transforms the 337 into a whole nother' league, with TS mesh plate drivers.


 
  +1 i Agree totally..that combo rocks..am curious if the uber tubes of tubes..the gec a1834 brown base..would give even more sound quality..if the new dac/amp (for which i am waiting for a quote) is to above budget..then certainly will try a set of those gec.


----------



## EraserXIV

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Where did you "source" the Tung-Sol's, if I may ask?


 
   
  Off the popular auction website where I get most of my tubes. It takes _a lot_ of time and patience, but I eventually snagged a decent deal on 2 NOS 5998's.
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> +1 i Agree totally..that combo rocks..am curious if the uber tubes of tubes..the gec a1834 brown base..would give even more sound quality..if the new dac/amp ofwhich i am witing for a quote is to expensive..then certainly will try a set of those gec.


 
   
  I've read that one thing about the GEC is that along with its superb sound quality, it has less gain in comparison with the 5998, allowing you to have more headroom on the amp.


----------



## GrindingThud

Things that make you go mmmmmm. 
Looks like a few 421A in fleabay. No familiarity with the seller or the quality of the tubes....but I could not resist and snagged one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-421A-tube-1968-vintage-tests-NOS-/350763796595?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item51ab26c873
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-421A-tube-1982-vintage-NOS-/350763783187?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item51ab269413
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-421A-tube-1981-vintage-/230960990231?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item35c6590817
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=421a+tube&_sacat=0&_from=R40


----------



## Dubstep Girl

^ oh wow thats a really good price!!!! they won't last long.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the links, congratulations, very nice tubes.
   
  No way I am going to control the addiction with nice tubes like that on offer.........


----------



## hifimanrookie

I just checked the recent prices for a pair of a1834 gec's. 535 usd!!! Omg!!!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I just checked the recent prices for a pair of a1834 gec's. 535 usd!!! Omg!!!


 
   
  ikr. 
   
  ive always wanted to try a pair with my WA2, but not at those prices! (i can see myself buying spare 5998s and maybe some nice driver tubes soon though)


----------



## Skylab

So I guess the pair of GEC A1834's I bought for $40 I will need to keep for a while 

Sure is interesting to watch NOS tube prices soar. Supply and demand, don't ya know. Until they became popular in headphone amps a few years back, the 6AS7G and all it's cousins were not popular tubes. 5 years ago RCA 6AS7Gs didn't fetch $5 each. You could buy a NOS sleeve of 5 for $20 very easily.


----------



## snip3r77

Quote: 





skylab said:


> The EF80 hums just like the 6SJ7. It is essentially the same tube, but in a 9-pin mini versus octal base. Both are sharp-cutoff pentodes, and both hummed in my 337 (I have a socket adaptor for using the EF80 in the 337).


 
   
  Slight digress, I have 1 mesh TS 6SJGT which hums. What are the chances it will go off with use or is it broken? Tks


----------



## kramer5150

Quote: 





snip3r77 said:


> Slight digress, I have 1 mesh TS 6SJGT which hums. What are the chances it will go off with use or is it broken? Tks


 
  I remember when I got mine they hummed too.  I guess they must have been pretty new, even though the 337 they came with was well used.  The hum completely went away after only ~1 week, probably ~20 hours of total listening time.


----------



## snip3r77

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> You're probably right.  I did some reading on a French forum (translated of course) and some other info that basically said the 7236 is computer rated (with tighter matching) 5998A.  I've never heard a TS 7236, but I can say that the 5998A does sound very similar to the regular 5998.  The 5998A is also a lot more musical than my Sylvania 7236.
> All of the tube numbering is confusing enough with manufacturers playing tricks on us
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just wondering what is the relationship between the 5998 vs 5998a vs 7236. Was thinking if it's possible to pay non premium price for the 5998 equivalence.
   
  Thanks


----------



## snip3r77

Quote: 





kramer5150 said:


> I remember when I got mine they hummed too.  I guess they must have been pretty new, even though the 337 they came with was well used.  The hum completely went away after only ~1 week, probably ~20 hours of total listening time.


 
  Ok thanks for the assurance. I try to listen to it daily and prays that it goes away.
  Cheers.


----------



## kramer5150

Quote: 





skylab said:


> So I guess the pair of GEC A1834's I bought for $40 I will need to keep for a while
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Same thing happened to the 12FM6 ~10 years ago with pete millets amp, and a few years before that the ECC86 in the Earmax.  These are low voltage tubes, and had no demand at all for 2-3 decades once small, low voltage consumer electronics went solid state.  They guy at my local used/vintage surplus retailer said they couldn't give them away, and they would just take up shelf space.


----------



## hifimanrookie

snip3r77 said:


> Just wondering what is the relationship between the 5998 vs 5998a vs 7236. Was thinking if it's possible to pay non premium price for the 5998 equivalence.
> 
> Thanks




Maybe this helps to answer ur question?

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3453.0


----------



## snip3r77

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Maybe this helps to answer ur question?
> 
> http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3453.0


 
  Thanks for the link as this can be a guide for us.
   
  Since we're using the 339 , the effect might not be the same as the crack?


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> Maybe this helps to answer ur question?
> 
> http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3453.0


 
   
  Thanks for the link, great review.
   
  What is missing is the Black Base Osram 6AS7G.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> About the 5998 tubes:
> 
> [size=7pt]_-These tubes are easily recognizable from their glossy black dimpled "Domino" Plates.* If the plates are carbon grey instead of black, it's a WE421A (See Western Electric 421A). *_[/size]


 
   
  I'm running upstairs now to check my stock! I never heard of this. Can anyone confirm?


----------



## hifimanrookie

My god..i checked my5998's..ifthis is true then my 5998's are actually we 421a's as the plates are carbon grey and not black....can someone in the know confirm this? Could it be i have been lucky when i bought my pair last january?


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I'm running upstairs now to check my stock! I never heard of this. Can anyone confirm?


 
   
  I don't have access to the tube stock that the person in the link does, but I am pretty good at collating data, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the 5998 and the 421A are different tubes. All evidence indicates that the 421A is simply a rough cherry pick of 5998 for slightly higher transconductance.
   
  Thus, while the 5998 are the best tube I have heard in my Crack...... I only paid $80 (inc. shipping) for two, and there is _no way in hell_ I would recommend paying way more than $100 for the same tube just because it is labelled as a 421A.
   
  Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> if this is true


 
   
  If you want it to be true, then it probably is. But engage your common sense brain, and I would be far less convinced.
   
  [EDIT] Actually, if you all go to the original thread and read it in its entirety, the author concedes that the 5998 and 421A are the same thing, and that the plate colour is related to tube age. All these people hearing magical improvements with the 421A are almost certainly just hearing fractionally volumes due to the higher transconductance, or the blissful confirmation bias of spending lots of money on something that sounds moar bettar.


----------



## hifimanrookie

beefy said:


> I don't have access to the tube stock that the person in the link does, but I am pretty good at collating data, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the 5998 and the 421A are different tubes. All evidence indicates that the 421A is simply a rough cherry pick of 5998 for slightly higher transconductance.
> 
> 
> Thus, while the 5998 are the best tube I have heard in my Crack...... I only paid $80 (inc. shipping) for two, and there is _no way in hell_ I would recommend paying way more than $100 for the same tube just because it is labelled as a 421A.
> ...




I am just curious minded...but for my 5998's NOS matched pair i paid 190usd ex postage! 

But they sound soooo good on my 337! I have the bendix 6080wb graphite plates also..and what the reviewer said about those is true, soundwise compared to the 5998...so he knows his tubes a bit..

And yes i know there always have been a debate wheter the we421a was a better tube then the 'normal 5998' or just what u just stated..i cant confirm it myself..as i dont have both the black plated and grey plated 5998's..maybe ultrainferno does? So he can check if there actually is a difference in sound? Until then i just enjoy my tungsols tuned 337..


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I am just curious minded...but for my 5998's NOS matched pair i paid 190usd ex postage!


 
   
  Yeah, for $190 you could buy a pair of RCA 6AS7's, and still have $160 left for good quality spirits. I can confirm that this combination sounds far better than the 5998.


----------



## hifimanrookie

beefy said:


> Yeah, for $190 you could buy a pair of RCA 6AS7's, and still have $160 left for good quality spirits. I can confirm that this combination sounds far better than the 5998.



In my 337 the combo of ts 5998 powertubes and ts sj7gt meshplates is best match for my ears..rca was a bit to warm for me..but its all about the amp u have and the phones and ur personal taste ofcourse..


----------



## Skylab

No one will ever convince me that the WE421a is anything other than a rebadged Tung-Sol 5998. At MOST, I will allow that it might be a "carefully selected" 5998.


----------



## rosgr63

I thought they TS 5998 and WE421A were different tubes.
  However the Data Sheet says otherwise.


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> In my 337 the combo of ts 5998 powertubes and ts sj7gt meshplates is best match for my ears..rca was a bit to warm for me..but its all about the amp u have and the phones and ur personal taste ofcourse..


 
   
  Have you tried the RCA with a high blood alcohol content? *Guaranteed* better.


----------



## hifimanrookie

beefy said:


> Have you tried the RCA with a high blood alcohol content? *Guaranteed* better.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

skylab said:


> No one will ever convince me that the WE421a is anything other than a rebadged Tung-Sol 5998. At MOST, I will allow that it might be a "carefully selected" 5998.




Premium 5598


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> Premium 5598


----------



## rosgr63

Quote: 





beefy said:


> Have you tried the RCA with a high blood alcohol content? *Guaranteed* better.


 
   
  Actually the RCA is one of my favourite tubes including the Black Base Osram.
   
  With alcohol I would probably like the Svetlana.........


----------



## hifimanrookie

rosgr63 said:


> Actually the RCA is one of my favourite tubes including the Black Base Osram.
> 
> With alcohol I would probably like the Svetlana.........



 I actually bought my 337 with svetlana powertubes... Oops... U can see them in my first pics in my profile.


----------



## GrindingThud

Wow...the thread was active today!

I'm a 5998A lover. I like their signature, dynamic punch, and depth of soundstage in single ended OTL amps (WA3). It sounds different than the 5998/2399 but to me very similar to the 7236. I'd call it a poor mans 7236. The 5998 biases up in a completely different spot on the curve (the warm nonlinear region) in a cathode biased amp designed for a 6080. 5998A and 7236 bias nearly the same. The tube has a serious drawback in my opinion. It is very vibration sensitive and can resonate (microphonics) in the audio band. Some do it, some do not. Ones that do it I find can be 'smacked' into compliance if subjected to a jolt while hot. Once quieted, mine have stayed that way. They also are known to arc sometimes in a woo3.


snip3r77 said:


> Just wondering what is the relationship between the 5998 vs 5998a vs 7236. Was thinking if it's possible to pay non premium price for the 5998 equivalence.
> 
> Thanks


----------



## Xcalibur255

As rosgr mentiond, and I have mentioned here in the past, there is factual data in the data sheets to show that the 421A is not identical to the 5998.  It is clearly a derivative and probably sounds nearly the same, but look at the transconductance..... it is 33% higher in the 421A.  If the tubes were electrically identical they would have the same transconductance, you can't get a 33% increase by cherry picking I'm thinking. 
   
  The bottlehead link was a nice read.  I find myself pretty much agreeing with it for the tubes on the list I have owned.  The 6080 seems to get no love but I can think of several I would easily take over the RCA 6AS7G as suggested in that writeup.  I am rather fond of my Chatham 6080Ws and got them dirt cheap.  I'm tempted to get my hands on some Bendix someday too.


----------



## Skylab

The 421A data sheet lists the transconductance as being over 20,000 uS???? I've never seen the whole data sheet for the 421A.


----------



## GrindingThud

http://www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/421A.pdf



skylab said:


> The 421A data sheet lists the transconductance as being over 20,000 uS???? I've never seen the whole data sheet for the 421A.


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





xcalibur255 said:


> As rosgr mentiond, and I have mentioned here in the past, there is factual data in the data sheets to show that the 421A is not identical to the 5998.  It is clearly a derivative and probably sounds nearly the same, but look at the transconductance..... it is 33% higher in the 421A.  If the tubes were electrically identical they would have the same transconductance, you can't get a 33% increase by cherry picking I'm thinking.


 
   
  You absolutely _can_ get that sort of change with cherrypicking, assuming the 421A don't outnumber the 5998.
   
  The value in the datasheet is an average/typical value, and individual but identical tubes vary by a _huge_ amount around that average. This is why there is such a big market in matched pairs and matched sections - and even then, matched pairs/sections are rarely closer than 5%.


----------



## Skylab

Not just that, but now looking at the data sheet, the higher transconductance is derived by specifying different operating values than the 5998 uses when it specifies 15.5K.

Sorry. I'm unconvinced. That and the fact that the WE data sheet itself says "5998/421A"...

The primary reason for my skepticism is that the odds of WE having manufactured such an uncommon tube type don't seem very high. It's possible that ER had Tung-Sol tweak the 5998 slightly for them when they supplied it to WE. But even that I'm skeptical of.


----------



## GrindingThud

Getter placement does vary. Chatham and TungSol 2339/5998 typically have top getters while 421A have doubles in the base or none at all. I've seen exceptions though. And then there are those green label side getters....those are cool. And the short/tall plate varieties:


----------



## Skylab

Yup, I have some bottom getter Tung-Sol 5998's.


----------



## GrindingThud

Of course while surfing for 421A pictures, I ran across this 6080.....never seen one like this before, now I have a new obscure tool to hunt down. Jeebus, it's sooooo cool. Wonder how it sounds


----------



## Skylab

Isn't that identical to the Bendix?


----------



## GrindingThud

No, looks more like a relabeled TS7236. The bendix have a different shape box supported with rods.

After looking at these for so long I'm beginning to think the labeling department put whatever they needed on the tubes to satisfy order demand. 


skylab said:


> Isn't that identical to the Bendix?


----------



## Skylab

Lewis & Kaufman was a pure rebranded. I have some Tung-Sol 6SU7GTY's branded Lewis & Kaufman, of all things.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Not just that, but now looking at the data sheet, the higher transconductance is derived by specifying different operating values than the 5998 uses when it specifies 15.5K.
> 
> Sorry. I'm unconvinced. That and the fact that the WE data sheet itself says "5998/421A"...
> 
> The primary reason for my skepticism is that the odds of WE having manufactured such an uncommon tube type don't seem very high. It's possible that ER had Tung-Sol tweak the 5998 slightly for them when they supplied it to WE. But even that I'm skeptical of.


 

 I definitely agree Tung Sol made them, not WE, but it is entirely possible it was to a slightly altered design.  Aside from collector's obsession I can't see a reason to spend more for  a 421A so I'm certainly not arguing that point, I just don't think it is *quite* right to say the two tubes are completely identical.


----------



## GrindingThud

Ever find a tube you liked so much you wanted to buy all of them.....and there were none to be found?


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Yup, I have some bottom getter Tung-Sol 5998's.


 

 Bottom getter 5998s are the cat's meow looks wise.  I bet the light show would be even better with the open heaters not having their light blocked by the getter atop the glass.  I still feel overall the 5998 is one of the most beautiful tubes out there when lit in a dark room.
   
  I have only top getters sadly.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> Ever find a tube you liked so much you wanted to buy all of them.....and there were none to be found?


 

 Actually, yes, when I was first getting into tubes a few years ago.  I found an odd RCA 6FD7 tube for my WA6 that had plates unlike any other 6FD7 myself or any other owner had seen.  It sounded a whole lot better than the normal ones too.  At least half a dozen people besides myself contacted all kinds of tube sellers and searched around and nobody ever found another pair.  I regret including them with the amp when I sold it, even though I had no other use for the tubes.  Hopefully the current owner enjoys the tubes now.


----------



## Skylab

xcalibur255 said:


> I definitely agree Tung Sol made them, not WE, but it is entirely possible it was to a slightly altered design.  Aside from collector's obsession I can't see a reason to spend more for  a 421A so I'm certainly not arguing that point, I just don't think it is *quite* right to say the two tubes are completely identical.




Fair enough  I think that's really the point, is that the premium price the WE421A demands has no justification other than as you so well said, "collectors obsession". Now, if they were the same price or less than 5998's, that would be different.


----------



## GrindingThud

I may not need to refill my placebo prescription for a while. Unused '73 double bottom halo. There look to be subtle differences in construction between my 2399 and this 421A in the way the wiring to the plates is made. Looks like the 421 has a thick spiral solid wire that loops the lower supports where the 2399 has a right angle small wire jumper. It may be common with all the bottom getter builds though. I'll try and get a photo after my ears stop grinning. This was a lucky buy. The last photo is of the 2399 wiring for reference.

Upon closer inspection, that curved wire holds the getter....interesting and beautiful.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Congratulations on the score, GT.  It looks like a great tube.


----------



## GrindingThud

Mmm, fresh. At $7.50 shipped this was a great deal.


----------



## john57

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> Have not read any mention of the Thomson CSF 6080WA in this thread... Anyone have an opinion on that tube?


 
  I noticed that this tube is easier to get now.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> Mmm, fresh. At $7.50 shipped this was a great deal.


 
   
  nice!


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> Mmm, fresh. At $7.50 shipped this was a great deal.


 
   
  I have a pair of those, same year even.  For some reason they go for very low prices.  I'm not sure why as I find them above average as far as 6080 tubes go.
   
  My first thought when I unrolled that stuff they are wrapped in was "I hope this stuff isn't full of asbestos...."


----------



## MrEleventy

I need some recommendations. ts 5998 is a little too pricy for me, there's not a lot but the few that are on ebay is at $100 each. most listings are in pairs. is there any others that are good without breaking the bank? I have a darkvoice 336se and 2 rca 6as7s plus the stock.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





mreleventy said:


> I need some recommendations. ts 5998 is a little too pricy for me, there's not a lot but the few that are on ebay is at $100 each. most listings are in pairs. is there any others that are good without breaking the bank? I have a darkvoice 336se and 2 rca 6as7s plus the stock.


 
   
  i just bought a spare set of 5998's the other day, they're getting really hard to find, and expensive too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  maybe you can try tung sol/chatham 6AS7G? the RCA's you have are pretty good though, cheap too


----------



## MrEleventy

Yeah, I got them for 10 each, NOS. I'll give the ts a try


----------



## Skylab

http://vacuumtubes.net/ will sell you a single NOS 5998 for $85. Not cheap, but if you only need one...

Amazing how those have gone up. 3-4 years ago that same seller sold 5998's for $20 each.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





skylab said:


> http://vacuumtubes.net/ will sell you a single NOS 5998 for $85. Not cheap, but if you only need one...
> 
> Amazing how those have gone up. 3-4 years ago that same seller sold 5998's for $20 each.


 
   
  actually they probably have no NOS 5998's left anymore. one head-fier who PMed me a couple days ago asking about tubes for WA2 actually asked about vacuumtubes.net, he ended up contacting them and decided on buying some 7308 and 5998's. they told him the 5998 aren't NOS.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> actually they probably have no NOS 5998's left anymore. one head-fier who PMed me a couple days ago asking about tubes for WA2 actually asked about vacuumtubes.net, he ended up contacting them and decided on buying some 7308 and 5998's. they told him the 5998 aren't NOS.


 
   
  They told me that too a few weeks back, the not NOS tubes do were cheaper though


----------



## MrEleventy

hmm, how much cheaper? I'm fine with some used to access whether they were worth spending full price for.


----------



## Xcalibur255

What's important is that they are being tested as well as they can be for shorts.  This is a running problem with these types of tubes, especially these old equipment pulls, and in an OTL a shorted tube means a blown pair of headphones sometimes.


----------



## snip3r77

dubstep girl said:


> actually they probably have no NOS 5998's left anymore. one head-fier who PMed me a couple days ago asking about tubes for WA2 actually asked about vacuumtubes.net, he ended up contacting them and decided on buying some 7308 and 5998's. they told him the 5998 aren't NOS.




I thought they sell NOS? hmm....


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





snip3r77 said:


> I thought they sell NOS? hmm....


 
   
  Langrex in the UK does the same:
   
_[size=x-small][size=10pt][size=small][size=12pt]We can offer[/size][/size][/size][/size]_
_[size=x-small][size=10pt][size=small][size=12pt] 1 matched pair 5998 Tung-Sol (Grade 1 tested) @ 100.00GBP per pair.[/size][/size][/size][/size]_
_[size=x-small][size=10pt][size=small][size=12pt] (tubes are tested to 85% and are in good condition, print style may vary slightly if we need to match a pair)[/size][/size][/size][/size]_


----------



## Dubstep Girl

just got my spare Tung Sol 5998/Chatham 2399 today! 
   
  they're like completely new!!


----------



## MrEleventy

Just e-mailed vacuumtubes.net and they do have NOS TS 5998 in stock. Thinking about picking one up. Expensive tho.


----------



## GrindingThud

So clean and shiny! Great looking pair. 


dubstep girl said:


> just got my spare Tung Sol 5998/Chatham 2399 today!
> 
> they're like completely new!!


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





mreleventy said:


> Just e-mailed vacuumtubes.net and they do have NOS TS 5998 in stock. Thinking about picking one up. Expensive tho.


 
   
  FWIW, IMHO, _ad nauseum_...... The 5998 are a great tube, but at >$50 they are well beyond diminishing returns.
   
  Don't "
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




" about it, be thankful that you aren't wasting your money.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





beefy said:


> FWIW, IMHO, _ad nauseum_...... The 5998 are a great tube, but at >$50 they are well beyond diminishing returns.
> 
> Don't "
> 
> ...


 
   
  +1
   
  i feel they are good enough to be worth buying, they're definitely a step up from the cheaper tubes. but some come pretty close and offer much more bang for the buck.


----------



## MrEleventy

true. I'm sure I've wasted more money elsewhere, might as well get something good for it. going to pick up one in the morning. any other tubes I should try? vacuumtubes also has a cheap chatham 6sa7 for 20. might as well make it a triple digit order. hehe


----------



## GrindingThud

They have an inexpensive 5998A ($23) that I happen to like. 


mreleventy said:


> true. I'm sure I've wasted more money elsewhere, might as well get something good for it. going to pick up one in the morning. any other tubes I should try? vacuumtubes also has a cheap chatham 6sa7 for 20. might as well make it a triple digit order. hehe


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





mreleventy said:


> true. I'm sure I've wasted more money elsewhere, might as well get something good for it. going to pick up one in the morning. any other tubes I should try? vacuumtubes also has a cheap chatham 6sa7 for 20. might as well make it a triple digit order. hehe


 
   
  ive been curious about trying these, they're supposed to be nice tubes, especially for their price.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mreleventy said:


> true. I'm sure I've wasted more money elsewhere, might as well get something good for it. going to pick up one in the morning. any other tubes I should try? vacuumtubes also has a cheap chatham 6sa7 for 20. might as well make it a triple digit order. hehe


 

 $20 is their list price for the tube but they often don't have them in stock.  The RCA tubes are many times more common than TungSols (who made the Chathams unless they are very old ones) who were a much smaller company overall.
   
  The gentleman who runs the place told me once they have shelves and shelves of RCAs but he had shipped me the only pair of Tung Sols they had at the time.  A shame they turned out to be noisy they were even in original boxes.


----------



## zenpunk

Just listed two pairs of 5988 and a quad 7236 in the sales forum if anybody is interested


----------



## MrEleventy

grindingthud said:


> They have an inexpensive 5998A ($23) that I happen to like.






xcalibur255 said:


> $20 is their list price for the tube but they often don't have them in stock.  The RCA tubes are many times more common than TungSols (who made the Chathams unless they are very old ones) who were a much smaller company overall.
> 
> The gentleman who runs the place told me once they have shelves and shelves of RCAs but he had shipped me the only pair of Tung Sols they had at the time.  A shame they turned out to be noisy they were even in original boxes.




You are correct. They don't have them in stock.  But he does have some Tung-sol and Sylvania 7236s right now for $35. I also asked about the 5998As, he does have those in stock, GE brand. Doing a quick search on this thread says that they're not as good as the TS5998 but still a good buy at 23, yes? Looks like I might be spending quite a bit at vacuumtube.net. lol


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Tung sol 7236 for 35ea!? Wow thats a great price, too bad i already have 2 pairs of sylvania 7236


----------



## Xcalibur255

Whether or not a person likes the 7236 sound is one thing, but $35 per tube is as good a price as you'll ever find on them these days.


----------



## mikek200

I bought the TS7236's at tubemaze
   
  $99.99 ,one tube-
   
  And ,just won a a bid on a pair of WE 421A's
  Please don't ask..
   
  It's lentil soup for the next 6 months.
   
  Mike


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> I bought the TS7236's at tubemaze
> 
> $99.99 ,one tube-
> 
> ...


 
   
  wow thats more than jack charges


----------



## mikek200

Well,I'm a little new to this..just got a crack amp with speedball ..,so ,my tube education continues.
  Not overwhelmed at the 7236 sq,as compared to the TS 5998 Chatham...which I like a lot..
   
  Question:
       I found the GEC curved brown base on e-bay ..seller is in England here:
      http://www.ebay.com/itm/A1834-GEC-6AS7G-6080-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-1PC-AB-/370719671332?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item56509d4424
   
  And these:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/A1834-6AS7G-CV2523-GEC-BROWN-BASE-NOS-VALVE-TUBE-H2-1PC-/370551093320?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item564690f848
   
  What is the difference,& why is there a $100.00 difference in price?
  Are these tubes so outstanding??,and,is the priced justified?
  Any info/advice will be appreciated
   
  Tnx
  Mike


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Curved base is supposed to be better and thus, more desired


----------



## mikek200

Are they all, that they are cranked up to be??
  Have you ever listened to them??


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Havnt heard them, i wish i could. I think they'd be worth it


----------



## GrindingThud

Hmmm, so you were one of the peeps that outbid me.  
  Quote:


mikek200 said:


> I bought the TS7236's at tubemaze
> 
> $99.99 ,one tube-
> 
> ...


----------



## mikek200

Yeah,LOL..
   
  Hoping that move will be worth it,will see if their worth it,might be a little bit to close to the TS 5998?
  Have a feeling,I should have gone with the GEC. ???


----------



## mikek200

Hi Dubstep,
   
    "wow thats more than jack charges"
Who is jack?
If he's a seller,could you please give the link to his website,or e-bay page?
   
Thanks
Mike


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> Hi Dubstep,
> 
> "wow thats more than jack charges"
> Who is jack?
> ...


 
   
  Woo Audio, $80 a pop: http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa3.html
   
  But really, the 7236 is just a computer rated 5998A. These tubes are available in many places for $20, so why pay the insane premium?


----------



## hodgjy

Because not all 5998A tubes are the same.  There is no standard.  The GE 5998A is nothing like the other 5998 or 7236 tubes.
   
  Quote: 





beefy said:


> Woo Audio, $80 a pop: http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa3.html
> 
> But really, the 7236 is just a computer rated 5998A. These tubes are available in many places for $20, so why pay the insane premium?


----------



## mikek200

Can you show me the link,where a Tung-sol 7236 tube is $20.00?
  I bought them from here:
   
     http://www.ebay.com/itm/171012039468?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649.
  Nikolay ,is a pretty reputable seller..look at his profile.
   
  5x's the the price ???????
  Are you sure?
  $20.00 ,seems a bit low


----------



## EraserXIV

Tubes are an interesting product in that prices can range drastically. You can find the exact same product for very different prices at different dealers. It's the consequence of it being such a niche market.


----------



## Skylab

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> Well,I'm a little new to this..just got a crack amp with speedball ..,so ,my tube education continues.
> Not overwhelmed at the 7236 sq,as compared to the TS 5998 Chatham...which I like a lot..
> 
> Question:
> ...


 
   
  Well, the rounded base tubes LOOK cooler 
   
  I have owned both types, and used both types.  IME, the sonic differences were pretty minimal.  And the plate structure of both is identical.  I like the GEC a lot, but their prices have gotten out of hand.  I wouldn't buy them today, honestly.  I got mine years ago from a fraction of what they sell for now.


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> Tubes are an interesting product in that prices can range drastically. You can find the exact same product for very different prices at different dealers. It's the consequence of it being such a niche market.


 
   
  Eraser,
  Guess your right...
  I just got this on ebay....$16.usd.:
   
     http://www.ebay.com/itm/230967555718?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
   
  Maybe ,I'd better do more research,before I hit the buy button??
   
  Mike


----------



## MrEleventy

mikek200 said:


> Can you show me the link,where a Tung-sol 7236 tube is $20.00?
> I bought them from here:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/171012039468?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
> ...




Not quite $20 but vacuumtubes.net has Sylvania & TS 7236s for $35 + shipping.


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well, the rounded base tubes LOOK cooler
> 
> I have owned both types, and used both types.  IME, the sonic differences were pretty minimal.  And the plate structure of both is identical.  I like the GEC a lot, but their prices have gotten out of hand.  I wouldn't buy them today, honestly.  I got mine years ago from a fraction of what they sell for now.


 
  Tnx Skylab..
  Not interested in looking cooler,or,being a  "rare" tube..only want the finest SQ ,I can get.
  When I had the Lyr  I went through a bundle,buying  ,Lorenze Stuttgart tubes,and a few others...Mullard CV2493
   
  Think the straight base will go well with Crack amp ,with Siemens 12au7 silver plates,  & ,HD800's,???..
   
  Mike


----------



## Skylab

I can't really answer that question.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





skylab said:


> Well, the rounded base tubes LOOK cooler
> 
> I have owned both types, and used both types.  IME, the sonic differences were pretty minimal.  And the plate structure of both is identical.  I like the GEC a lot, but their prices have gotten out of hand.  I wouldn't buy them today, honestly.  I got mine years ago from a fraction of what they sell for now.


 
   
  the prices are the reason i ended up with a spare 5998 for my WA2 instead. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the differences/improvements aren't worth the huge cost are they? (a pair of GEC is about double the cost of the 5998)


----------



## Skylab

I can't ever answer questions about "worth" - people have very different value of money assignments. For me, as much as I truly love the GEC, it's not "worth" the current asking price (for me).


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


> Because not all 5998A tubes are the same.  There is no standard.  The GE 5998A is nothing like the other 5998 or 7236 tubes.


 
   
  None of the 5998 are like the 5998*A* and the 7236. The standard 5998 is a different/superior tube.
   
  But all of the 5998A and the 7236 are pretty much identical, save for the very minor variations between different manufacturers, and the computer rating on the 7236. The computer rating isn't something magical, except for the ability to hold the current to zero for long periods of time without degrading.
   
  In any case, I maintain that the 7236 is probably not worth the price premium over the 5998A.


----------



## Skylab

The GE 5998A doesn't look anything like any 7236 I've ever seen. It looks exactly like the GE 6AS7GA, except with a pink base.


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





skylab said:


> I can't ever answer questions about "worth" - people have very different value of money assignments. For me, as much as I truly love the GEC, it's not "worth" the current asking price (for me).


 
  Is it improper edicate,for me to ask,which sellers you guys are using  for buying your tubes,or,is it just hit & miss on ebay?
   
  Mike


----------



## dminches

Most people would rather give out their ATM pin than their favorite tube seller.
   
  Ebay is a good place to look since there is a wide variety, but you you still try to get to know your sellers there.  Other than that, there are a handful of sellers, many of whom are mentioned here.  Upscale audio, vacuumtubes.net, audiotubes.com, tubeworld.com.


----------



## GrindingThud

The Tung Sol 7236 is a completely different internal structure than its other brand relatives....looks (and sounds) nothing like the Sylvania and GE variants. The Sylvania and GE 7236 and 5998A are similar IMHO, with the 5998A suffering from more microphonics than the 7236. 5998 and 421....whole other game.



beefy said:


> None of the 5998 are like the 5998*A* and the 7236. The standard 5998 is a different/superior tube.
> 
> But all of the 5998A and the 7236 are pretty much identical, save for the very minor variations between different manufacturers, and the computer rating on the 7236. The computer rating isn't something magical, except for the ability to hold the current to zero for long periods of time without degrading.
> 
> In any case, I maintain that the 7236 is probably not worth the price premium over the 5998A.


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





dminches said:


> Most people would rather give out their ATM pin than their favorite tube seller.
> 
> Ebay is a good place to look since there is a wide variety, but you you still try to get to know your sellers there.  Other than that, there are a handful of sellers, many of whom are mentioned here.  Upscale audio, vacuumtubes.net, audiotubes.com, tubeworld.com.


 
  OK--LOL,
   
  You forgot one
  Brent Jesse
   
  Tnx dminches


----------



## dminches

Audiotubes is Brent Jessee.


----------



## mikek200

OOOOPs,
   
  Yes...and one of my favorites.
   
  Mike..


----------



## Xcalibur255

IMHO, at the absurd prices the GEC tubes go for you are better off getting some Chatham 6AS7 in their place unless you have a lot of money and a burning desire to spend it on tubes.  The Chathams are good sounding 6AS7s and still go pretty cheap if you patiently wait for the right deal to come along.


----------



## mikek200

Like this one?:
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chatham-Electronics-Jan-CAHG-6AS7G-Tube-1-Boxed-/200918615670?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2ec7aec676
   
  Tnx
  Mike


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> The Tung Sol 7236 is a completely different internal structure than its other brand relatives....looks (and sounds) nothing like the Sylvania and GE variants. The Sylvania and GE 7236 and 5998A are similar IMHO, with the 5998A suffering from more microphonics than the 7236. 5998 and 421....whole other game.


 
   
  Conceded. I have Sylvania 5998A that look exactly like photos of the Sylvania 7236. If the Tung Sol 7236 and 5998A are _both_ different from the Sylvania, that is understandable.
   
  That being said, within each of the different 5998A / 7236 brands, I still see no benefit to spending more on the 7236. Seems that the TS 7236 is very rare though, which makes it a moot point.


----------



## GrindingThud

The only reason I'd get one over the other is to have a higher probability of finding a quieter tube. I find the Sylvanias quieter than the GE and the TS quieter than both for 7236/5998A. From a construction perspective, the 6080WA made by TS seems to be the quietest of all of them. Do you have the speedball in your crack?


beefy said:


> Conceded. I have Sylvania 5998A that look exactly like photos of the Sylvania 7236. If the Tung Sol 7236 and 5998A are _both_ different from the Sylvania, that is understandable.
> 
> That being said, within each of the different 5998A / 7236 brands, I still see no benefit to spending more on the 7236. Seems that the TS 7236 is very rare though, which makes it a moot point.


----------



## Xcalibur255

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> Like this one?:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chatham-Electronics-Jan-CAHG-6AS7G-Tube-1-Boxed-/200918615670?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2ec7aec676
> 
> ...


 

 Yes.


----------



## Beefy

grindingthud said:


> The only reason I'd get one over the other is to have a higher probability of finding a quieter tube. I find the Sylvanias quieter than the GE and the TS quieter than both for 7236/5998A. From a construction perspective, the 6080WA made by TS seems to be the quietest of all of them. Do you have the speedball in your crack?




Yep, I have balls in my Crack. Several other upgrades as well.

Only tube noise I've ever had to deal with is a terribly microphonic driver tube, and a 5998 that pings as it warms and cools.


----------



## hodgjy

I've done some inspection of plates, as well as ear listening.  You and I agree.
   
  The Sylvania 7236 is the same as the Sylvania 5998A, expect for the glass bottle.
   
  The TS 7236 is the same as the TS 5998A, including the glass bottle.
   
  The GE 5998A isn't a 7236 tube at all.
   
   
  Quote: 





beefy said:


> None of the 5998 are like the 5998*A* and the 7236. The standard 5998 is a different/superior tube.
> 
> But all of the 5998A and the 7236 are pretty much identical, save for the very minor variations between different manufacturers, and the computer rating on the 7236. The computer rating isn't something magical, except for the ability to hold the current to zero for long periods of time without degrading.
> 
> In any case, I maintain that the 7236 is probably not worth the price premium over the 5998A.


----------



## MrEleventy

Woot. Placed more order for a TS 5998 and 7236 yesterday. Now comes the worst part.... I wait. :\


----------



## GrindingThud

I also put in an order for a TS7236.....shipped today. 
@mike200, let us know how that 421 is with the speedball....


mreleventy said:


> Woot. Placed more order for a TS 5998 and 7236 yesterday. Now comes the worst part.... I wait. :\


----------



## MrEleventy

Mine just shipped today. I also won a pair of Tung-sol/Chatham 6as7gs on eBay. Not NOS but tested in the mid to high 90s. No complaints since it was only $10 shipped.


----------



## GrindingThud

Mine arrived. . Little bit of corrosion on the base, but otherwise a nice clean tube for $35. Tube sounds great being driven by 6cg7.




mreleventy said:


> Mine just shipped today. I also won a pair of Tung-sol/Chatham 6as7gs on eBay. Not NOS but tested in the mid to high 90s. No complaints since it was only $10 shipped.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

On the Russian tubes, is the 6N5C or 6N13C prefered?


----------



## GrindingThud

6n13s winged =C=


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





mreleventy said:


> Mine just shipped today. I also won a pair of Tung-sol/Chatham 6as7gs on eBay. Not NOS but tested in the mid to high 90s. No complaints since it was only $10 shipped.


 
   
  nice!


----------



## hifimanrookie

mikek200 said:


> Well,I'm a little new to this..just got a crack amp with speedball ..,so ,my tube education continues.
> Not overwhelmed at the 7236 sq,as compared to the TS 5998 Chatham...which I like a lot..
> 
> Question:
> ...



I understand the brownbased gec is the big boss of tubes...the very best u can get..but at the highest prices also.


----------



## skeptic

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I understand the brownbased gec is the big boss of tubes...the very best u can get..but at the highest prices also.


 
   
  Having spent a fair amount of time with a GEC 6as7g brown base (in a hotrodded bh crack, driving HD800's) - I find I'm on the fence as whether or not this tube has been over-hyped.  No doubt it is a really nice tube, but so are 5998's, which can be had for a lot less money.
   
  My superficial understanding from the bottlehead forums, and elsewhere, is that 5998's/7236's lower the output impedance of your amp (generally a good thing) but also have higher gain than 6as7(g)'s, which may or may not be a good thing in your setup.  (See: page 2 of http://www.pmillett.com/Wheatfield/rolling.pdf )
   
  All said and done, I probably wouldn't recommend spending much over $120 for a GEC 6as7g, assuming that they perform, on average, like the one I have.  I like it better than some of my 5998's, but I do have a couple of particularly quiet 5998's that I tend to reach for more often than the GEC tube.  Just my view, fwiw.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

whats the main difference between GEC and 5998s in terms of SQ? 
   
  i've pretty much decided that my T1/WA2 will forever remain as my reference system, so i've been looking at maxing out my tubes


----------



## Neogeo333

dp


----------



## Neogeo333

double post


----------



## MrEleventy

awesome, looking forward to trying it out in my darkvoice. I need better 6ns7 tubes too now. rolling doesn't stop. 


grindingthud said:


> Mine arrived. . Little bit of corrosion on the base, but otherwise a nice clean tube for $35. Tube sounds great being driven by 6cg7.


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> whats the main difference between GEC and 5998s in terms of SQ?




+1 i have same question...as to buy a matched pair to try it out is almost impossible as they are so beeeeeep expensive..


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> whats the main difference between GEC and 5998s in terms of SQ?
> 
> i've pretty much decided that my T1/WA2 will forever remain as my reference system, so i've been looking at maxing out my tubes


 
  I should have my bifrost back from schiit,& my GEC tube..by middle of next week.
   
  I will try my best to do some serious listening,and give a a/b comparison against my 5998's,& Siemens silverplates
   
  Dubstep ,,,,what headphones are you using?
  Your amp is the W3 pictured above??-----beautiful.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> I should have my bifrost back from schiit,& my GEC tube..by middle of next week.
> 
> I will try my best to do some serious listening,and give a a/b comparison against my 5998's,& Siemens silverplates
> 
> ...


 
   
  nope, i have WA2, the WA3 there is the other guy's post
   
  i use HD 800 and T1 with it.


----------



## skeptic

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> whats the main difference between GEC and 5998s in terms of SQ?


 
   
  I think the description at the bottom of the page in the link I provided above (http://www.pmillett.com/Wheatfield/rolling.pdf), summarizes it quite well at the bottom of page 2:  "The 5998, 7236, and 6528 have different characteristics than the 6AS7 and 6080 tubes, which lower the output impedance of the HA-2. The resulting sound tends to be brighter and faster than the stock 6080. Conversely, a good old-stock 6AS7G tube can fatten the bass and give an even more "tubey" sound."
   
   
  The GEC is basically a very refined and detailed 6as7g.  I wouldn't call it tubey in any negative sense of the word, but it does have a fatter bass than a 5998.  5998's sound a bit brighter with a more holographic sound-stage.  The difference in gain is also significant.  5998 has nice tight deep bass, but with some songs, I find I do have to listen at a higher volume to get same sensation of full sound that I get with the GEC at a lower volume.  Pros and cons - but both wonderful tubes!


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I find the GEC has delicasy and finesse the 5998 doesn't have, it seems to present better detail also. I love the 5998 but find the A1834 to be a better tube. I use both. The above comment I can recognise. Pity all are so expensive now  They do make Chatham / RCA 6AS7G look very cheap now.


----------



## rosgr63

The GEC sound wonderful.
   
  However not many 6AS7 amps can run the 5998's properly.
  When run properly the 5998 sound even better.


----------



## Beefy

When comparing the 6AS7 and 5998, how are you all volume matching? The difference in gain is fairly substantial between the two.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Sound meters like everyone else. Is that what you mean?


----------



## rosgr63

A few weeks ago I was alerted by GrindingThud (Thanks!) for a copper radiators 6AS7G that I've been looking hard for sometime now.
   
  I was under the impression that it was a 1948 Ken-Rad as the seller mentioned.
   
  Today as I was cleaning the pins I noticed the base had a faint logo.
  It's a *Cunningham* 6AS7G with date code B3C.


----------



## john57

That great Stavros!
   
  My pair is labeled by GE in nice GE boxes. GE did made some tubes for RCA in the early 20's!  Your looks exactly like mine with the wire insulation and the way the copper was cut. There is quite a history between Cunningham, GE and RCA. It may be possible that your tube was made before 1925 but I think it may be too early. RCA did not make their own tubes until latter. The copper radiators 6AS7G's  has to be one of the earliest 6AS7 made.
   
  You can get the Cunningham Radio Tube Data Book on Amazon for $20 which covers 1923 to 1924
   
http://www.vacuumtubesinc.com/TubeTidbits/TheFoundingofRCA.aspx


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for the great link John.
  It was James Cross who sold me the tube, it's a small world.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





john57 said:


> It may be possible that your tube was made before 1925 but I think it may be too early.


 
   
  Yeah, too early. According to Sibley's Tube Lore the type was registered in 1946.


----------



## dminches

What is the difference between the RCA 6AS7G with the small red logo and the larger lettering logo? And, the large gray lettering for that matter.


----------



## rosgr63

Different production years, the red logo been the newest.


----------



## john57

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Yeah, too early. According to Sibley's Tube Lore the type was registered in 1946.


 
  From what I can tell since Cunningham and RCA were suing each other RCA had to make any tubes that Cunningham demanded until 1925 by court agreement. After a bit of more digging I find that Cunningham was making unlicensed tubes outside of the agreement and RCA sue again and by this time World War II started. The government need all the tubes and they allow Cunningham to make tubes until the end of the war and Cunningham folded. That is as far I know. I do not have the Sibley Tube Lore book since it is about $185 and I am not a tube historian but a tube buff!


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





john57 said:


> I do not have the Sibley Tube Lore book since it is about $185 and I am not a tube historian but a tube buff!


 
   
  That's a crazy price! I didn't pay anywhere close to that. The book must be out of print.
   
  How did my name got anglicized?


----------



## john57

Quote: 





oskari said:


> That's a crazy price! I didn't pay anywhere close to that. The book must be out of print.


 
   
  The book is out of print for some time. Looks like that only the first edition was printed in 1996 The lowest I seen so far is $174 and goes up to over $600
  It must been the forum auto word checker of sorts. If I click on the new name it goes back to your old name. This happens to my cousin all the time.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





john57 said:


> The book is out of print for some time. Looks like that only the first edition was printed in 1996 The lowest I seen so far is $174 and goes up to over $600


 
   
  Insane. Mine's a 1996 copy but came with Supplement 3 dated 2002.
   


> It must been the forum auto word checker of sorts. If I click on the new name it goes back to your old name. This happens to my cousin all the time.


 
   
  Weird. Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## rosgr63

I payed $70 for my Tube Lore a couple of years ago when Oskari told me about this book.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I am sure my copy was only somehing like $15 in late 96, early 97! Good book.


----------



## Ultrainferno

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271197264430
   
  I wonder why they are bidding $680 for 8 tubes that aren't even 2399/5998/421A. they're "normal" 6AS7G, sure they have the nice copper Chatham grids but are people that easily fooled? (I paid $20/tube for these a while ago)
   
  What am I missing (besides that they're supposed to be "matched")?


----------



## rosgr63

I saw them a few days ago, tube prices are getting out of hand.
   
  BTW some traders have dual ID's and bid to raise the price of their items.
  To be clear I am not suggesting this is what's happening in this auction.


----------



## Beefy

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> What am I missing (besides that they're supposed to be "matched")?


 
   
   
  It only takes one noob to be suckered in by hype in threads such as this, then the new price has been set. The fact that they are expensive in turn generates more hype, tube vendors raise prices even further...... Mob mentality 101.


----------



## rosgr63

I would never post in a thread that's full of hype.


----------



## MrEleventy

I got my tubes yesterday, 2x Chatham 6as7g, TS 7236, and Chatham 2399. Rolled in one of the 6as7gs and now on the 7236. Throughly enjoying them. Going to save the 2399/5998 last.  If only I can do this at home... but the misses doesn't know about the tube amp/addiction. Sooo this is going to stay at work for the time being.


----------



## john57

[size=11pt]I have  NOS quad sets of Chatham 6as7g tubes at $45! That was last year. The cheapest set was the 8 Philips NOS 6080 tubes at $27 last year as well. The most expensive are the Bendix graphite tubes and the only ones worth the high dollars in my opinion. I am thinking about getting another 6DJ8/6933 type of amp since I have very nice matched pairs that I paid about $20 now worth $350 these days. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



[/size]


----------



## GrindingThud

There are 3 6520s in the batch....not easy to find. Shhhhh. 
I'd like to get just one 6520, but not willing to pay 5998 prices.....so I wait. 



ultrainferno said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/271197264430
> 
> I wonder why they are bidding $680 for 8 tubes that aren't even 2399/5998/421A. they're "normal" 6AS7G, sure they have the nice copper Chatham grids but are people that easily fooled? (I paid $20/tube for these a while ago)
> 
> What am I missing (besides that they're supposed to be "matched")?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> There are 3 6520s in the batch....not easy to find. Shhhhh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  But the 6520 is just a regular 6as7g, with the same specs. Shouldn't cost extra at all


----------



## GrindingThud

It has different voltage and better matched sections.  It's a 600V tube.
http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf
   
   
   
  Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> But the 6520 is just a regular 6as7g, with the same specs. Shouldn't cost extra at all


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> It has different voltage and better matched sections.  It's a 600V tube.
> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf


 
   
  True that, but heater voltage is still 6.3


----------



## mikek200

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> just got my spare Tung Sol 5998/Chatham 2399 today!
> 
> they're like completely new!!


 
  Can I ask,where you got these?& are they a replacement for the TS998's or,a variant?


----------



## mikek200

Dubstep,
  Got it ,just got off the phone with Dale-tnx.
   
  Use your new tubes in good health
   
  Mike


----------



## snip3r77

Dale as in Vacuumtubes?


----------



## mikek200

Yup
   
http://vacuumtubes.net/


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> Can I ask,where you got these?& are they a replacement for the TS998's or,a variant?


 
   
  oh i got them from ebay, tube maze store, their stock changes all the time though, sometimes theres something good like these. 
   
  and yeah chatham 2399 = tungsol 5998.


----------



## mikek200

Tnx Dubstep,
   
  Please correct me if I'm wrong---Is the 2399,the same as the 5998,or,the 5998a?
  One is made by IBM,the other by Tung-Sol-right?
   
  Yes,Nikolay from Tube maze,has some pretty good stuff,,I've bought a few from him,and he's a pleasure to deal with.
  Yesterday,I picked up a Tung-Sol 12au7 black plate..,if it's half as good as the 5998,I'll be  happy.
   
  Mike


----------



## EraserXIV

My understanding is the 2399 is the same as the 5998, both made by Tung-Sol. Tung-Sol also made some 5998 which are branded by IBM, but are the same as any other 5998.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





eraserxiv said:


> My understanding is the 2399 is the same as the 5998, both made by Tung-Sol. Tung-Sol also made some 5998 which are branded by IBM, but are the same as any other 5998.


 
   
  Tung-Sol / Chatham/ The 2399 are mostly labelled Chatham. I have white and yellow labelled ones
   

   
  Some are clear tops, some are like the ones shown above with the top getter


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





mikek200 said:


> Tnx Dubstep,
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong---Is the 2399,the same as the 5998,or,the 5998a?
> One is made by IBM,the other by Tung-Sol-right?
> ...


 
   
   
  yeah 2399 is the same as 5998. 5998A is way different (similar to 7236 but theres a few differences as well).  
   
  I think tung sol made all the 5998's.


----------



## hodgjy

I know this thread already has 767 posts, but we're going in circles here.  All the answers to the last 50 questions appear earlier in this thread.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Yes, it's getting worse on head-fi. People don't want to learn it seems. Sometimes I spend 4 days reading threads with multiple hundred pages. I take notes and learn, but hey, who am I


----------



## hodgjy

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> Yes, it's getting worse on head-fi. People don't want to learn it seems. Sometimes I spend 4 days reading threads with multiple hundred pages. I take notes and learn, but hey, who am I


----------



## Thaddy

Quote: 





hodgjy said:


>


 
  Pass me a beer, I've been learning the same stuff for almost 10 years


----------



## Skylab

As it relates to the 2399, I'm not sure it's ever been established that its completely identical to the 5998 electrically. It's undoubtedly some slight tweak or variant of the 5998, and the looks are quite similar or course, but since I have never seen a data sheet on the 2399, not sure what exactly its specs are. 

I also have tubes marked 6520 that appear to be 5998's internally even though 6520 is supposed to be an identical designation for the 6AS7G.

I'm sure Tung Sol had its reasons for all this, but its hard to decipher 50 years on.


----------



## mikek200

And for this ,you get a case of beer,your choice ,may I suggest  ,Becks??
   
  Many tnx's skylab
  Will start to do ,more reading
   
  Mike


----------



## GrindingThud

I don't think I've ever been more excited over a tube than today. I finally got to unbox an elusive TungSol 7802WB. http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/077/7/7802WB.pdf
Ceramic spacers, graphite anodes, and a transconductance of 20,000! It's heavy....106 grams heavy, and a bottom end to match. It's fast, it's a bit cool, not warm, not fat, not round, not veiled.....is it really a tube? The soundstage is insane...really wide, but well damped and not artificial. Listening to Mara & David, Once we were Gods...outstanding vocals and string plucking. The tube takes a very long time to warm up, making twinking noises until the temp stabilizes. Too soon for me to rank it amongst the others.


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice and interesting tube, well done!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

is it like 6080WB?


----------



## GrindingThud

Looks just like it, sounds similar, but with a little more power and lower output impedance in a cathode follower...kind of like a 7236.
  Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> is it like 6080WB?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

oooh interesting.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

just got my gec 6as7g's omg theyre amazing.


----------



## Silent One

Congrats, this is wonderful news. In other news, I'm going Live on Twitter: Listening Party @ Dubstep Girl's Place! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Okay, maybe not. Perhaps, you'll get back to us by Labour Day Weekend...


----------



## GrindingThud

They must be super amazing in the WA2.....they are very nice in the WA3. Brass (trumpet) sounds so alive. 
The imaging is crazy good. 




dubstep girl said:


> just got my gec 6as7g's omg theyre amazing.


----------



## MDR30

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> They must be super amazing in the WA2.....they are very nice in the WA3. Brass (trumpet) sounds so alive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Wonderful things. Have another GE I'm gonna try when time permits. Numbering is 4-26 188-5, and I know 188-5 is the GE manufacturing plant, but what date could that be?
   
  Presently running an all American setup: RCA 7109 and HP 6AS7G. Didn't know Hewlett Packard was in the tube business, but found some interesting information on Wikipedia on how they started in a garage i Palo Alto in the 1940s:
   
  "Of the many projects they worked on, their very first financially successful product was a precision audio oscillator, the Model HP200A. Their innovation was the use of a small incandescent light bulb (known as a "pilot light") as a temperature dependent resistor in a critical portion of the circuit, the negative feedback loop which stabilized the amplitude of the output sinusoidal waveform. This allowed them to sell the Model 200A for $54.40 when competitors were selling less stable oscillators for over $200. The Model 200 series of generators continued until at least 1972 as the 200AB, still tube-based but improved in design through the years.
  One of the company's earliest customers was Walt Disney Productions, which bought eight Model 200B oscillators (at $71.50 each) for use in certifying the Fantasound surround sound systems installed in theaters for the movie Fantasia."
   
  So, I have to dig up my old Fantasia recordings and check that sound!
   
  This HP tube seems to have been manufactured by RCA (274). Nice and airy sound with expansive sound stage.


----------



## rosgr63

Very interesting info thanks for sharing.
  On a different note, GE and GEC are not the same tubes.


----------



## MDR30

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> Very interesting info thanks for sharing.
> On a different note, GE and GEC are not the same tubes.


 

 There you go, always something new to learn - their logos are so similar. Were they once affiliated, or manufactured for different markets/countries?


----------



## rosgr63

GEC was a British manufacturer part of MOV Marconi-Osram-Valves.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





grindingthud said:


> They must be super amazing in the WA2.....they are very nice in the WA3. Brass (trumpet) sounds so alive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  yeah the imaging and soundstage. theres so much detail and air in everything, way better than Tung sol 5998.


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> yeah the imaging and soundstage. theres so much detail and air in everything, way better than Tung sol 5998.



I wanted to upgrade my 5998 to gec's also even that the price is double..but i am going to upgrade to an opamp based amp next..so soon no more tube rolling for me anymore..allthough it was fun to do it and find the right tube pairs for ur taste!  i now have only tungsols in my amp..until now best i heard for my amp with my he500.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I wanted to upgrade my 5998 to gec's also even that the price is double..but i am going to upgrade to an opamp based amp next..so soon no more tube rolling for me anymore..allthough it was fun to do it and find the right tube pairs for ur taste!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  aww
   
  anyways the 5998 might be better than GEC for HE-500 cause they still have more bass than GEC and are more powerful than GEC tubes


----------



## dminches

DG, have you noticed a big bass difference with the TS 5998 vs the GEC 6AS7Gs?


----------



## hifimanrookie

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> aww
> 
> anyways the 5998 might be better than GEC for HE-500 cause they still have more bass than GEC and are more powerful than GEC tubes




 yeah i know the higher gain advantage of the 5998 over the gec is something important...the 5998 is very good with the lower ohms headphones like my he500..if i am not mistaken i even read that someone said that the 5998 gives 0.5 extra watts to the output of the amp...
  
 ps..no need for awwww'ing. . the next amp will be something special.... but i have to wait until november..but still i will miss my humble 337...especially now i modded my he500...


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





dminches said:


> DG, have you noticed a big bass difference with the TS 5998 vs the GEC 6AS7Gs?


 
   
  the GEC has a lighter bass. its well textured and extended, but can seem very slightly dry compared to the fuller 5998 bass.
   
  the 5998 has a stronger bass thats punchier and has a slower decay to it. both extended right about the same. the GEC just loses a bit of bass but becomes tighter.
   
  so for like pop and electronic and rap, i prefer 5998 with the T1. the GEC are brighter and have less bass, especially mid bass and the sub-bass is slightly dry like i said vs the 5998 which has a much more robust bass response. some might prefer 5998 which make headphones seem fuller sounding but some might prefer GEC for its tighter cleaner airier presentation.
   
  5998 also have a slightly fuller more tubier midrange than GEC. but the GEC have a more organic tonality to them thats great with vocals and classical and stuff like that.
   
  the GEC is still the overall better tube. but for someone who prefers a bassier response the 5998 would be a good choice. the GEC is more refined, but sacrifices a bit of bass.


----------



## Oskari

Quote: 





rosgr63 said:


> GEC was a British manufacturer part of MOV Marconi-Osram-Valves.


 
   
  Stavros, I think you meant to say parent, not part.


----------



## rosgr63

Hi Oskari, yes indeed, thanks for putting the record straight.


----------



## skeptic

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> so for like pop and electronic and rap, i prefer 5998 with the T1. the GEC are brighter and have less bass, especially mid bass and the sub-bass is slightly dry like i said vs the 5998 which has a much more robust bass response. some might prefer 5998 which make headphones seem fuller sounding but some might prefer GEC for its tighter cleaner airier presentation.
> 
> 5998 also have a slightly fuller more tubier midrange than GEC...


 
   
  Very interesting!  I would agree with this in so far as mids go, but in my setup (modded bh crack /w speedball -> hd800), I find that the exact opposite is true with respect to bass and overall brightness.  At approximately equal volume, if I throw on bass heavy tracks (e.g. 2pac's "u can't see me"), the bass hits _much_ harder and fuller if I'm running my gec 6as7g (or, for that matter, my other 6080's/6as7g's), when compared to any of my 5998's.  
   
  In my understanding, this is because ordinary 6as7's (including the gec tubes) have a higher output impedance as a cathode follower than a 5998.  The higher output impedance boosts bass in 'phones like the hd800's, due to the 100hz spike on the hd800's impedance curve.  This is graphed and discussed in detail elsewhere, but I understand we are no longer permitted to link that site on HF.
   
  On an unrelated note - grindingthug - can you offer any comments on how the TS and amperex 7802's compare in your Woo?  Thanks!


----------



## hifimanrookie

skeptic said:


> Very interesting!  I would agree with this in so far as mids go, but in my setup (modded bh crack /w speedball -> hd800), I find that the exact opposite is true with respect to bass and overall brightness.  At approximately equal volume, if I throw on bass heavy tracks (e.g. 2pac's "u can't see me"), the bass hits _much_ harder and fuller if I'm running my gec 6as7g (or, for that matter, my other 6080's/6as7g's), when compared to any of my 5998's.
> 
> In my understanding, this is because ordinary 6as7's (including the gec tubes) have a higher output impedance as a cathode follower than a 5998.  The higher output impedance boosts bass in 'phones like the hd800's, due to the 100hz spike on the hd800's impedance curve.  This is graphed and discussed in detail elsewhere, but I understand we are no longer permitted to link that site on HF.
> 
> On an unrelated note - grindingthug - can you offer any comments on how the TS and amperex 7802's compare in your Woo?  Thanks!



U know the headphone we were talking about has low impedance? And every tube reacts differently on different tube amps...and the 5998 tends to be very good in providing the current for that kind of headphones..the he500.


----------



## skeptic

Those differences are exactly what I'm interested in discussing hifiman - and, to be accurate, if you re-read what I quoted and responded to above, DG is talking about how her 600 ohm beyerdynamic T1's sound with the gec tube.    
   
  In comparison to hd800's, many beyers have pretty flat impedance curves.  If the T1 is in the same camp (headroom hasn't posted an impedance curve for them for whatever reason), they may well not get the bass boost from a higher impedance cathode follower as opposed to a 5998.  For purposes of illustration, compare the hd800 and dt880 impedance curves:
   

  The fact that the 5998 is bassier in DG's setup, and the GEC is bassier in mine, is probably of high relevance to others who may be trying to figure out which, if either of these tubes, is worth buying given their tastes and gear.


----------



## hifimanrookie

skeptic said:


> Those differences are exactly what I'm interested in discussing hifiman - and, to be accurate, if you re-read what I quoted and responded to above, DG is talking about how her 600 ohm beyerdynamic T1's sound with the gec tube.
> 
> In comparison to hd800's, many beyers have pretty flat impedance curves.  If the T1 is in the same camp (headroom hasn't posted an impedance curve for them for whatever reason), they may well not get the bass boost from a higher impedance cathode follower as opposed to a 5998.  For purposes of illustration, compare the hd800 and dt880 impedance curves:
> 
> ...



My apologies..as i was talking with her concerning the he500..so two stories got a bit mixed up..
I myself never heard a gec..i have bendix and rca and the tungsols.. And the tungsols give me a feeling my he500 gets more power..and not only in the bass..it sounds like the sound is more fuller..like the difference between a copper and silver cable... But as i said before..not every amp reacts same way on different tubes..maybe it has to do with how the amp is built?

Pity i will never ever hear the difference of the best tubes (imho) available anymore as i will be jumping on another wagon in two months time..it was fun...


----------



## GrindingThud

They are both very similar, and I believe both made by TS. The low impedance gives my HD558s nice drive. The TS WB takes a long time to warm up (20 minutes). During the warmup time you can hear the carbon plates expanding/creaking. I've tried to A/B them and I'm not sure I can tell them apart other than warmup behavior. If I take my placebo, I think I can sense the TS has a wider soundstage, much like is reported for the Bendix 6080...but it's so subtle I'm not sure. I believe they will run a little cold in an unmodified Woo, much like the 5998. I've got a pair of constant current source (variant of the bottlehead speedball) installed in mine to hold the tube at 39ma each side.



skeptic said:


> On an unrelated note - grindingthug - can you offer any comments on how the TS and amperex 7802's compare in your Woo?  Thanks!


----------



## W0lfd0g

GEC round base $95.00 on eBay Australia
   
  http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221264941851&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT
   
   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I am selling at loss to pay back a debt accrued through this blasted (but addictive hobby).
   
  Please let me know if this post is inappropriate and I will delete immediately.


----------



## doco

anyone have an idea which family this chatham 6AS7G tube belongs to?
   
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321176335700?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## Ultrainferno

The normal Chatham copper grid 6AS7G family


----------



## doco

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> The normal Chatham copper grid 6AS7G family


 
  is that a good smile or a bad smile? lol. it seems there is not many of them on ebay. if any at all ;/


----------



## Ultrainferno

It's good. It's my all time fav 6AS7G. Just bought some more actually, get them while they're available but don't overpay them


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> It's good. It's my all time fav 6AS7G. Just bought some more actually, get them while they're available but don't overpay them


 
   
  u mean like this retard selling them here? 400$ for a quad, l0l
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHATHAM-QUAD-ECC230-7236-5998-6AS7-BLACK-PLATE-6AS7G-MATCHED-NOS-POWER-4-TUBES-/271243990134?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item3f2766d476


----------



## MrEleventy

lol, I got my pair for $10 shipped.  loose glue in the base but doesn't effect the sound whatsoever


----------



## Ultrainferno

I saw that auction too. He always has nice tubes but his prices are all over the place, way over the top


----------



## MDR30

Can anyone identify this tube? Looks like a GE, but there's no "USA" engraved on it.


----------



## john57

If it has dots printed on the glass it most likely a GE tube


----------



## Skylab

Yup, that's GE for certain.


----------



## Contrails

Hello everyone,
   
  I have a 339 amp running 5998 and 5693.  I am wanting a little more punch in the bass  and I am curious about these bad boys http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Matched-Pair-of-New-Heavy-Duty-Graphite-Plate-6082WB-Tubes-By-Bendix-/370778444872?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item56541e1448.  
   
  Are these the rare graphite column 6080wb which are suppose to be better than the 5998?


----------



## Skylab

NO. The 6082 is a 26.5V version of the 6AS7/6080 (which are 6.3V). Cannot be used as a drop in replacement.


----------



## GrindingThud

Better is a relative term, but no, those are not the beasts. Same construction though.
 Funny, I had to edit my hasty post after reading skylabs and seeing the non 6080 reference.

There is a slotted plate version which I hear are better, but I've never had opportunity to hear for myself. 
Here is a nice link to some descriptions: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3453.0



contrails said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a 339 amp running 5998 and 5693.  I am wanting a little more punch in the bass  and I am curious about these bad boys http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Matched-Pair-of-New-Heavy-Duty-Graphite-Plate-6082WB-Tubes-By-Bendix-/370778444872?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item56541e1448.
> 
> Are these the rare graphite column 6080wb which are suppose to be better than the 5998?


----------



## Contrails

Thanks for the replies.  Appreciated.


----------



## hifimanrookie

contrails said:


> Thanks for the replies.  Appreciated.



I see u got ur answers, good for u 

I myself posted that tube review also on headfi a while ago..its very interesting stuff to read! 

About the bendix 6080wb graphite solid/slotted colums tubes.. I used both the 5998 as the bendix on my evil 337... And what the bottlehead guy said i agree..better seperation/soundstage on the bendix but also less suruppy sound.. It sounded more natural..less accentuated...but only with the 'non-sexy' redhots 5693!  Paired with the TS sj7gt mesh plates the soundstage could be to much on certain 24bit high quality coded material....a bit unnatural..

And also with the 5998 i aways had idea some areas were to much... But the 5998 gave more power..the volume knob was on a lower level then when i used the bendix...bass was harder hitting too..sometimes to hard..but nevertheless..both are excellent tubes..both having different specialities... The bendix is getting harder and harder to come by..and its prices are creeping into 5998 territory for NOS matched pairs...IF U CAN FIND ONE..


----------



## Ultrainferno

Quote: 





contrails said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a 339 amp running 5998 and 5693.  I am wanting a little more punch in the bass  and I am curious about these bad boys http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Matched-Pair-of-New-Heavy-Duty-Graphite-Plate-6082WB-Tubes-By-Bendix-/370778444872?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item56541e1448.
> 
> Are these the rare graphite column 6080wb which are suppose to be better than the 5998?


 
   
  Switch to 6AS7G RCA and EF80s in your 339


----------



## hifimanrookie

ultrainferno said:


> Switch to 6AS7G RCA and EF80s in your 339



I knew u would say that sooner or later


----------



## Ultrainferno

'cause for the 339, it's true


----------



## MDR30

skylab said:


> Yup, that's GE for certain.




Thanks, that means I've got two GE 6AS7G of different shapes, and I think I prefer the larger one.

Am tempted to try a GEC brown base. If anyone's got a surplus one for a fair price, send me a PM.


----------



## telecaster

Quote: 





mdr30 said:


> Thanks, that means I've got two GE 6AS7G of different shapes, and I think I prefer the larger one.
> 
> Am tempted to try a GEC brown base. If anyone's got a surplus one for a fair price, send me a PM.


 
  It's a GE6AS7GA, same guts with different glass housing.


----------



## magiccabbage

Sorry guys what were the names of the most bass heavy 6AS7G tubes, i forgot again. 
   
  By the way - dale at vacuumtubes.net got 50 new 7236 tubes, going for 36 dollars each, im gonna get some of those too.


----------



## hifimanrookie

magiccabbage said:


> Sorry guys what were the names of the most bass heavy 6AS7G tubes, i forgot again.
> 
> By the way - dale at vacuumtubes.net got 50 new 7236 tubes, going for 36 dollars each, im gonna get some of those too.



5998's can be bass heavy...


----------



## Ultrainferno

RCA or Chatham for me


----------



## magiccabbage

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> 5998's can be bass heavy...


 
  I have 5998, anything with a fatter ass?


----------



## magiccabbage

i will try the RCA


----------



## hifimanrookie

​


magiccabbage said:


> I have 5998, anything with a fatter ass?



I have been thinking...
Maybe the lack of bass(dynamic headroom?) is not because of the tubes but the amp/headphones combination ur using..maybe ur amp is not powerfull enough to drive ur headphones to their limits?? Maybe a stronger/better amp can remedy ur problem? What headhones u use and what amp u use them with?


----------



## magiccabbage

Quote: 





hifimanrookie said:


> I have been thinking...
> Maybe the lack of bass(dynamic headroom?) is not because of the tubes but the amp/headphones combination ur using..maybe ur amp is not powerfull enough to drive ur headphones to their limits?? Maybe a stronger/better amp can remedy ur problem? What headhones u use and what amp u use them with?


 
  Woo audio WA2 and beyer T1. I don,t have a problem with this setup, i like it, i just wanted to know what were the darkest tubes. I am ordering 7236 soon and then i wanna get really bottom heavy ones jsut to a the variety. The 5998's are great.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

The tung sol 7236 seem to be really thick and warm but i dont think the bass is more than 5998. The RCA 6AS7G is quite bassy.

Try rolling ur 6922s, the reflector 6n23p-ev are bass monsters. Combined with the rca tube, the amp becomes a little muddy sounding, but the T1s will sound like Dt 990s with the bass sometimes, tons of bass


----------



## telecaster

To me with 339 amp, 7236 has little more gain than 6AS7G but it's not bassy. It's actually more dynamic and transparent. 6AS7G is darker and thicker. It's slight though. Same with Bendix 6080 slotted graphite plate, compared to 7236 it's dynamic and lively with strong bass, less bloom downlow than 6AS7G but more control.


----------



## magiccabbage

Quote: 





dubstep girl said:


> The tung sol 7236 seem to be really thick and warm but i dont think the bass is more than 5998. The RCA 6AS7G is quite bassy.
> 
> Try rolling ur 6922s, the reflector 6n23p-ev are bass monsters. Combined with the rca tube, the amp becomes a little muddy sounding, but the T1s will sound like Dt 990s with the bass sometimes, tons of bass


 
  nice, thanks for posting this. this is what i want to try next. have you used this combo with hd800?


----------



## skeptic

I agree with telecaster - in cathode follower otl amps, my experience has been that traditional 6as7(g)/6080's are slightly darker and bassier as they have higher output impedance.  Higher transconductance, lower output impedance tubes (i.e. 5998's and 7236's) have higher gain and sound a little faster, livelier and brighter in my setup - although still have plenty of good deep bass for my tastes.
   
  Note that this is also going to depend on your specific headphones.  E.g., the HD800's have a mid-bass impedance spike on their curve so their FR really does change based on output impedance.  Phones with a flat impedance curve should not be impacted as much in this regard.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





magiccabbage said:


> nice, thanks for posting this. this is what i want to try next. have you used this combo with hd800?


 
   
  not really, i find that the bassiier tubes take away from the transparency and detail, though they are quite fun to have!
   
  by the the definite/best combination i've heard for the HD 800 is the  Tung Sol 5998 or GEC 6AS7G with Amperex 6DJ8 Bugle Boy's and RFT EZ 80s.
   
  the stock rectifier or maybe the mullards might have more bass, but the RFT is by far one of the best, well balanced and great extension and clarity.
   
  you would be ok with the sylvania 7308 and 5998 for the hd 800, the 7308's already have very good bass and the 5998 has a little weight in the bass as well. the 7308s also have great extension in the bass as well, the 6N23P-EV are similar sounding, but slightly more treble and bass, the treble smoothens out alot with burn in, great tonality.
   
  the bugle boy's are smooth, warm, with great soundstage, bass is well balanced and full but not super strong, they are incredibly good tubes.
   
  and the 5998 as i said i find to have a bit more bass than GEC 6AS7G as well as being warmer. the GEC 6AS7G are slightly brighter, mostly cause they're very analytical, but they have a great synergy with the HD 800, the best tonality out of almost any of the other tubes, transparency is a league above 5998, and the sound basically has no flaws, thats the first thing i noticed about the tube, usually they all have some flaw, but this one really has no problems at all and performs at top level in every category. the soundstage is incredible as well as the imaging, really works well with HD 800.
   
   
  only thing i'm missing now is siemens CCa or some ultra rare amperex tube. i can't imagine the WA2 sounding any better though.


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> not really, i find that the bassiier tubes take away from the transparency and detail, though they are quite fun to have!
> 
> by the the definite/best combination i've heard for the HD 800 is the  Tung Sol 5998 or GEC 6AS7G with Amperex 6DJ8 Bugle Boy's and RFT EZ 80s.
> 
> ...



You should also try the bendix wb6080 with graphite solid/slotted colums.. I liked them more then the 5998 in the end when they were burned in...but they are almost not to be found anymore i understand.. Takes a long time to warm up to working temp also in my experience..at least 30min.


----------



## Contrails

> You should also try the bendix wb6080 with graphite solid/slotted colums.. I liked them more then the 5998 in the end when they were burned in...but they are almost not to be found anymore i understand..


 
   
  Seek and you shall find, hehe.  I just ordered two from vacuumtubes.net.  They have them in stock at $40 each.


----------



## hifimanrookie

contrails said:


> Seek and you shall find, hehe.  I just ordered two from vacuumtubes.net.  They have them in stock at $40 each.



Thats cheap!! My matched NOS pair was 140usd if i remember it correctly..ur in luck mister!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





contrails said:


> Seek and you shall find, hehe.  I just ordered two from vacuumtubes.net.  They have them in stock at $40 each.


 
   
   
  ooooh thanks, seems like they still have alot of rare tubes in stock, and for fair prices too!
   
  do u guys think these are worth trying out tho? compared to ts 5998, ts 7236, syl 7236, and gec 6as7g?


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> ooooh thanks, seems like they still have alot of rare tubes in stock, and for fair prices too!
> 
> do u guys think these are worth trying out tho? compared to ts 5998, ts 7236, syl 7236, and gec 6as7g?


yes they are..as i said..i had a pair of both of them...paired with ts or rca as drivers..and i liked them more then the 5998's..sound got more open..and faster...more 3d..less surrupy... In my 337 i had anyway... I loved the bendix best with the rca redhots 5693 as drivers... Especially With live recordings in high quality lossless material this pair sounded by far better then my 5998 with sj7gt mesh plates as drivers... But as one smart guy said... Every tube amp reacts different on tubes.. So maybe fr a woo audio amp the 5998 sound better..dont know..u just have to try out i guess... But those bendix are hard to find..so if u find a NOS matched pair..jump on it! 

UPDATE..i have my 'evil one' back for a few months to use...until i have my new amp that is....i can use it while my friend is out of the country for business for a few months....i have such good friends!!!  

but OMG...he sounds soooooo F..Cking good... i even called my boss last night and took 4 days off...so until next wednesday..all relaxing!! 

compared to my not really cheapish onkyo speakeramp (which sounds wonderfull by the way on my tannoy speakers) that i used since i sold my amp its a HUGE step in sound quality,,,

no matter what u speakerguys say...for me the 337 is the best amp i ever heard for the he500..PERIOD!!..especially with the bendix and rca redhots 5693's....okay i mean this evil (modified) 337..somebody did some magic on it...am glad it has a good home now..but damn its squeeky clean..and no dust..What did they do? put it in a dustfree/oxigen free case or something?...


----------



## Contrails

I am very happy with the sound I am getting out of the 5998s and mesh plates/5693s. But my curiosity always gets the best of me and I wanna try new things. So now I have more tubes on order. There's also the novelty factor of collecting these rare tubes.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

hifimanrookie said:


> yes they are..as i said..i had a pair of both of them...paired with ts or rca as drivers..and i liked them more then the 5998's..sound got more open..and faster...more 3d..less surrupy... In my 337 i had anyway... I loved the bendix best with the rca redhots 5693 as drivers... Especially With live recordings in high quality lossless material this pair sounded by far better then my 5998 with sj7gt mesh plates as drivers... But as one smart guy said... Every tube amp reacts different on tubes.. So maybe fr a woo audio amp the 5998 sound better..dont know..u just have to try out i guess... But those bendix are hard to find..so if u find a NOS matched pair..jump on it!
> 
> UPDATE..i have my 'evil one' back for a few months to use...until i have my new amp that is....i can use it while my friend is out of the country for business for a few months....i have such good friends!!!
> 
> ...




Ive always been really curious of 337/339 and he-500 combo, seems like it would be similar to t1/wa2 combo, not much talk about he-500 synergy much less he-6. I know the best amp ive heard he-500 on is the allnic hpa-5000. But thats a $5500 amp


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> Ive always been really curious of 337/339 and he-500 combo, seems like it would be similar to t1/wa2 combo, not much talk about he-500 synergy much less he-6. I know the best amp ive heard he-500 on is the allnic hpa-5000. But thats a $5500 amp




Yes ur right..there is almost no talk bout the synergy with the 337/339 and the he500----the 339/337 owners are not of the bragging kind (check their 339 thread and mention if the 339 goes well with the he500...and then see what happens..lolz..

in general they just enjoy listening to it instead of talking bout it elsewhere on threads..just like blue circle audio owners..silent lovers... They dont need to prove that they have something special...

But another thing... the 337 i had was heavily modified under the hood by the first owner...i bought mine second hand...so i guess because of that it sounds so heavenly also

Just try a 339/337 once with ur he500

Ps..i tried the he6 with my amp....horrible! Lack of power!!! Bad Also with the hd800 ( the previous owner sold it to me because he just had bought a hd800..and hated the pairing)..bad!

.lcd 2/3 ..was okay..not great.

 But hd650/600, beyerdynamic mmx300, he500/400/300... Good pairing! (Owned/tried them all!)

Best pair until now was the hd650...u wont believe what u hear from the good old hd650! On second place the he500..well u know how i think about that pairing..and then the rest i tried.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

hmm, i am also looking at amp upgrades atm.
   
  right now though im very happy with how hd 800 sound with WA2 and the GEC 6AS7G tubes, the transparency and clarity even rivals that of the LCD-3. so natural sounding and zero grain with this tube.


----------



## Ultrainferno

New NOS pair in the house. These are my fav 6AS7G, too bad they're getting hard to find (or have incredible prices)


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> New NOS pair in the house. These are my fav 6AS7G, too bad they're getting hard to find (or have incredible prices)


 
   
  even more than GEC?


----------



## Ultrainferno

no not by far, GECs are ridiculously priced nowadays, I remember paying $20 a piece for them


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> no not by far, GECs are ridiculously priced nowadays, I remember paying $20 a piece for them


 
   
  wow lol, i got a decent deal compared to what they go for now.
   
  i paid $350 for 5 of them, that was for a NOS straight base pair, a NOS curved base single, and a used straight base pair.
   
  then i ended up buying a single curved base NOS for $250 so i could have a pair of them.
   
  all the ones i see for sale now though are around there 250-300$ or more for a single tube..


----------



## Ultrainferno

I should sell mine, they don't even have an hour on them


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Quote: 





ultrainferno said:


> I should sell mine, they don't even have an hour on them


 
   
  not even an hour?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Safely stored for later


----------



## MDR30

Running a Sylvania combination right now that's quite satisfying, power and detail.


----------



## MrEleventy

ultrainferno said:


> New NOS pair in the house. These are my fav 6AS7G, too bad they're getting hard to find (or have incredible prices)


 I landed a pair for $10 shipped. Tested at 90+% new, just a bit of loose glue in the base. I love em.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I bought 6 at $35 recently


----------



## Dubstep Girl

nic rhodes said:


> I bought 6 at $35 recently


 
  
 therees a nice quad for about $380 on ebay right now, and for that price, i'd rather buy an ounce 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHATHAM-QUAD-ECC230-7236-5998-6AS7-BLACK-PLATE-6AS7G-MATCHED-NOS-POWER-4-TUBES-/271243990134?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item3f2766d476


----------



## doco

i saw vacuumtubes sells those chatham 6AS7G for $20. you think they're the one and the same? i might have to shoot them an e-mail. otherwise i totally love the chatham 6AS7G over the stock tube and RCA. i do want to try a 5998 though.


----------



## MrEleventy

doco said:


> i saw vacuumtubes sells those chatham 6AS7G for $20. you think they're the one and the same? i might have to shoot them an e-mail. otherwise i totally love the chatham 6AS7G over the stock tube and RCA. i do want to try a 5998 though.


The last time I checked with them, they didn't have any in stock but let us know if they do have any.


----------



## GrindingThud

Out of the carbon 'slotted' column now, but did have the carbon 'cross' column....thanks for the heads up! 




contrails said:


> Seek and you shall find, hehe.  I just ordered two from vacuumtubes.net.  They have them in stock at $40 each.


----------



## rosgr63

I have identified 4 different types of Bendix 6080WB's with graphite plates so far from my own tubes, but there could more.


----------



## W0lfd0g

Did Raytheon make any 6080WB solid graphite plates?  I have one in my collection but suspect from its construction that it is a rebranded Bendix.


----------



## hifimanrookie

rosgr63 said:


> I have identified 4 different types of Bendix 6080WB's with graphite plates so far from my own tubes, but there could more.



I thought there where only two kinds of those (with same high soundquality).. slotted graphite colums and the ones with solid graphite colums????
I had the bendix 6080wb with solid graphite colums on my 337...they sounded heavenly...HEAVY buggers though!.. Lolz.


----------



## GrindingThud

I've seen three, slotted cross, solid cross, and a solid curved (referred to as just solid). What's the 4th rosgr? 



hifimanrookie said:


> I thought there where only two kinds of those (with same high soundquality).. slotted graphite colums and the ones with solid graphite colums????
> I had the bendix 6080wb with solid graphite colums on my 337...they sounded heavenly...HEAVY buggers though!.. Lolz.


----------



## rosgr63

That's how I've got them classed, and i have not taken into account the different coolers to keep things simple:
  
 1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods.
 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods
 3. Holed Plates with Steel Rods
 4. Rectangular Plates with Steel Rods


----------



## GrindingThud

Ah, ok. Mine is a type 4 with double halo getters.



rosgr63 said:


> That's how I've got them classed, and i have not taken into account the different coolers to keep things simple:
> 
> 1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods.
> 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods
> ...


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Which is best? Im thinking of trying them out....


----------



## GrindingThud

Word here is slots: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3453.0



dubstep girl said:


> Which is best? Im thinking of trying them out....


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Oh yeah that thing, ive read through it a few times, its a good read.

Except this one says that the we421a is better than 5998, something which is still debated. 

Oh slotted graphites, ok i didnt see that before... Thanks.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I haven't heard all those tubes but I wouldn't put them in that position. personal preference guys, listen first, don't just accept


----------



## rosgr63

grindingthud said:


> Ah, ok. Mine is a type 4 with double halo getters.


 
  
 Did you get them from Vacuumtubes.net?


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> Oh yeah that thing, ive read through it a few times, its a good read.
> 
> Except this one says that the we421a is better than 5998, something which is still debated.
> 
> Oh slotted graphites, ok i didnt see that before... Thanks.



Yess..he mentions that slotted and solid graphite plates sound same and are the best soundin kind..check this out also:

Quotes from tubemaze about thesetubes:


http://www.tubemaze.info/bendix-jan-6080/#comments

I have the 6080wb with the solid graphite colums..i have some closeup pics of them on my profile. 

Funny is that what first guy says is exactly how i experienced it on my 337..and yes i paid almost same price for my NOS matched pair also as i did for the matched NOS pair of 5998 which i also had

Just for the record..i found out that every tube amp reacts differently on tubes..it could be that on amp A a we421a sounds better then a 5998 as on amp B.. Or doesnt sound differently at all...Eventhough its same tube!


----------



## rosgr63

1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods - *Left Tube*

  
  
  
 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods


  
  
  
 3. Holed Plates with Steel Rods -* Right Tube*

  
  
 4. Rectangular Plates with Steel Rods - *Right Tube*


----------



## GrindingThud

Yes


rosgr63 said:


> Did you get them from Vacuumtubes.net?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

How much are those bendix then at vakuum tubes?


----------



## GrindingThud

Fourtee 


dubstep girl said:


> How much are those bendix then at vakuum tubes?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Each or pairz?


----------



## GrindingThud

Eachz 


dubstep girl said:


> Each or pairz?


----------



## rosgr63

And that's very cheap for Bendix 6080WB's.


----------



## Contrails

Last I checked the slotted columns 6080wbs are gone.  Damn head-fi members...


----------



## W0lfd0g

Thanks Contrails - Waiting for a pair to arrive.
  
 (Lesson to self: Never reveal a source    
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )


----------



## Dubstep Girl

aww slotted columns gone?
  
 i'll wait for an expensive pair to pop up on ebay in the future then lol. or live with the GEC 6AS7G in the meantime, which should still be better


----------



## rosgr63

contrails said:


> Last I checked the slotted columns 6080wbs are gone.  Damn head-fi members...


 
  
  
 To me all graphite plates are good and worth considering.
  
 In some systems and and for my taste they are as good if not better than the GEC and WE421 tubes.


----------



## Contrails

> Lesson to self: Never reveal a source


 
  
 Haha, only reveal it after you have had your own share first.


----------



## MDR30

Are 6AS7G and 6SL7 compatible? Also uncertain about ECC33 here.


----------



## Skylab

No, they are not compatible. They are both double triodes with the same pin configuration but they have very, very different operating points. You could plug a 6SL7 into some amps calling for a 6AS7 and it will not explode, but it will not work as designed.


----------



## rosgr63

I have identified another Bendix variant:
  
 5. Slotted Plates Curved Face with Copper Grid Rods


----------



## GrindingThud

Ooo, that's interesting. I've not seen those before. 



rosgr63 said:


> I have identified another Bendix variant:
> 
> 5. Slotted Plates Curved Face with Copper Grid Rods


----------



## rosgr63

I'll post some photos soon.


----------



## W0lfd0g

Took a $20.00 gamble on an unmarked slotted square graphite plate 6080WB - eBay seller stated he couldn't verify whether or not the tube would work. 
  
 It doesn't - Tube tester revealed a short on the filament pin.  Not happy, but at least it's not megabucks down the tube.
  
 Anyway - reason for the post.  The getter flash is milky white.  Do you think there is a relationship between the filament short and this?
  
 Cheers and thanks
  
 Nathan


----------



## W0lfd0g

Paid $15.00 for a single Tung Sol 6AS7G not expecting much compared to the others in the family I have tried.  Hmm... pleasantly supplied.  I assume that Chatham and Tung Sol 6AS7G are the same construction with just a different branding?  Anyone know a good source for these tubes?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Contrails

> The getter flash is milky white.


 
  
 I remember reading this indicates a vacuum leak. 
  
 Anyway, the slotted columns have arrived.  Very very excited, hehehe.


----------



## john57

w0lfd0g said:


> Took a $20.00 gamble on an unmarked slotted square graphite plate 6080WB - eBay seller stated he couldn't verify whether or not the tube would work.
> 
> It doesn't - Tube tester revealed a short on the filament pin.  Not happy, but at least it's not megabucks down the tube.
> 
> ...


 
 If the getter flash is milky white, the tube lost its vacuum and I would never put it in a tube tester.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

contrails said:


> I remember reading this indicates a vacuum leak.
> 
> Anyway, the slotted columns have arrived.  Very very excited, hehehe.




+1 

White is a sign of oxidation, the vacuum is bad so the tube is pretty much dead now,


----------



## magiccabbage

dubstep girl said:


> +1
> 
> White is a sign of oxidation, the vacuum is bad so the tube is pretty much dead now,


 
  
 do you have black spots over your 5998's?


----------



## Skylab

w0lfd0g said:


> Paid $15.00 for a single Tung Sol 6AS7G not expecting much compared to the others in the family I have tried.  Hmm... pleasantly supplied.  I assume that Chatham and Tung Sol 6AS7G are the same construction with just a different branding?  Anyone know a good source for these tubes?
> 
> Thanks!




At some point, Tung Sol purchased Chatham Electronics, and stopped manufacturing duplicate tube types. So again at some point (early 60's I think) all Tung Sol and Chatham branded 6AS7Gs are essentially Chatham manufactured.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

magiccabbage said:


> do you have black spots over your 5998's?




A little darkening but no spots lol


----------



## Dubstep Girl

skylab said:


> At some point, Tung Sol purchased Chatham Electronics, and stopped manufacturing duplicate tube types. So again at some point (early 60's I think) all Tung Sol and Chatham branded 6AS7Gs are essentially Chatham manufactured.




Does this include ibm 5998 and we421a?


----------



## Skylab

I believe that all 5998s were actually Tung Sol manufactured regardless of brand, yes, including the WE421A.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Has it ever been fully proven if 421a are really sonically equivalent to 5998 though, or a slightly better version? Thats the one thing that still makes me wanna try them out, cause ive heard all sorts of things. Prices seem to go as high as $500 a pair or even $350 a tube though


----------



## Skylab

There are some minor differences in the data sheet specifications of the 421A vs the 5998, including a slightly higher transconductance. This could yeild a slightly different sound, although when I had the 421a, they sounded basically identical to the 5998. There is no doubt they are both TungSol manufactured.


----------



## rosgr63

I believe that other makers too made tubes for WE, but never used the same design for their own branded tubes.
  
 Here are the different Bendix 6080 slotted plate styles.
  
 The top tube has a smooth face edge and the bottom shows a clear sharp edge


----------



## hifimanrookie

For anyone interested...my 337 is up for sale..with somg yummy tubes..being TS 5998 or bendix 6080wb with graphite colums and RCA 5693 redhots or TS 6sj7gt with mesh plates..all matched pairs..and all bought NOS not so long ago with all of them around 100hours playtime.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i will take the 6080wb if you still have them.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

just got more 5998's!!! one seller has like $120 a pair still on ebay, they're like totally new!!!


----------



## DefQon

A good sounding 6AS7G with a nice glow, any?
  
 Cheers


----------



## ru4music

dubstep girl said:


> just got more 5998's!!! one seller has like $120 a pair still on ebay, they're like totally new!!!


 
  
  
 DG, this is a steal at current prices!  Congrates!!!   4 The rest of us please don't pay these prices for standard 6as7g RCA tubes  ( which are good, but not comparable to this 5998 purchase.)  JUST SAY'N....  BTW, would love to have been in your noted purchase of the 5998 tube, thanks for shar'en to the community!
 Ken


----------



## Dubstep Girl

ru4music said:


> DG, this is a steal at current prices!  Congrates!!!   4 The rest of us please don't pay these prices for standard 6as7g RCA tubes  ( which are good, but not comparable to this 5998 purchase.)  JUST SAY'N....  BTW, would love to have been in your noted purchase of the 5998 tube, thanks for shar'en to the community!
> Ken


 
  
 theres 1 pair left if u are looking... all the rest are sold, the guy had like 10 pairs total i think. 
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-TungSol-JAN-5998-Twin-Triode-Vacuum-Tubes-/161116014907?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item258343493b


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> theres 1 pair left if u are looking... all the rest are sold, the guy had like 10 pairs total i think.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-TungSol-JAN-5998-Twin-Triode-Vacuum-Tubes-/161116014907?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item258343493b



I have same kind of 5998's with the grayish plates and i paid more then 200 usd for a NOS matched pair last january! This is cheap..although i cant find they are NOS..


----------



## ru4music

defqon said:


> A good sounding 6AS7G with a nice glow, any?
> 
> Cheers


 
 A typical RCA with a flashlight shining behind it.  Seriously, a good RCA branded 6as7G is your best best!
 Ken


----------



## hifimanrookie

ru4music said:


> A typical RCA with a flashlight shining behind it.  Seriously, a good RCA branded 6as7G is your best best!
> Ken



Try the 5998 or the bendix 6080wb graphite slotted colums..  and When they cool down they tick the same way as a harddriven sportscar when u turn the engine off.. Only a bit slower..i love that sound!


----------



## ru4music

dubstep girl said:


> theres 1 pair left if u are looking... all the rest are sold, the guy had like 10 pairs total i think.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-TungSol-JAN-5998-Twin-Triode-Vacuum-Tubes-/161116014907?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item258343493b


 
  
  
 Just bought his last pair... I'll argue many that on my system the 5998 sound close to the top of the WA 2 game..  Now, the mighty 596'ers and company may be a different story which I'm love'n to start the journey.  Please don't confuse the 6as7g to the 5998 tube, they're not the same.
  
 Ken


----------



## Dubstep Girl

ru4music said:


> Just bought his last pair... I'll argue many that on my system the 5998 sound close to the top of the WA 2 game..  Now, the mighty 596'ers and company may be a different story which I'm love'n to start the journey.  Please don't confuse the 6as7g to the 5998 tube, they're not the same.
> 
> Ken


 
  
 the WA2 doesn't use 596. but gratz on those tubes, first time in over a year i think i've seen a reputable source sell that cheap. i bought 2 for now and i have enough pairs of ts 5998 to last me a while. (a used pair that i use the most, the 2 new ones i just bought, and also a brand new chatham 2399 pair)


----------



## ru4music

hifimanrookie said:


> Try the 5998 or the bendix 6080wb graphite slotted colums..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, I have both Bendix and TS graphites 6080 (non slotted) and they are both incredible in performance.  I believe the slotted vs. solid only provides a sooner equalization in heat distribution of the graphite plates (a good thing, but not absolutely necessary.)  Yes I love the tink/ pink of heat up and cool down.  The 5998s don't do this!
 Ken


----------



## ru4music

dubstep girl said:


> *the WA2 doesn't use 596*. but gratz on those tubes, first time in over a year i think i've seen a reputable source sell that cheap. i bought 2 for now and i have enough pairs of ts 5998 to last me a while. (a used pair that i use the most, the 2 new ones i just bought, and also a brand new chatham 2399 pair)


 
  Understood, but the WA 5 and WA 234 does...  more to come in weeks ahead!


----------



## hifimanrookie

ru4music said:


> Yes, I have both Bendix and TS graphites 6080 (non slotted) and they are both incredible in performance.  I believe the slotted vs. solid only provides a sooner equalization in heat distribution of the graphite plates (a good thing, but not absolutely necessary.)  Yes I love the tink/ pink of heat up and cool down.  The 5998s don't do this!
> Ken



I agree bout the tinking..its sweet!
But i am curious..which of the two tubes u prefer? The bendix or 5998?


----------



## ru4music

hifimanrookie said:


> I agree bout the tinking..its sweet!
> But i am curious..which of the two tubes u prefer? The bendix or 5998?


 
  
  
 In my current setup If I had to choose between the two tubes, I would take the 5998 over the graphite(s.)  But I wouldn't want to give up the graphite(s!)


----------



## W0lfd0g

Anyone interested in any of the following tubes?
 
2 x Chatham 2399 - NOS white box
1 x Osram 6AS7G round brown base - NOS NIB (sold)
2 x Mullard 6080WA - NOS NIB
3 x Tung Sol 7236 - NOS white box
2 x Bendix slotted graphite plate 6080WB - NOS white box (1 sold, 1 left)
 
I have purchased about $5,000 of tubes in a few months - Addictive behaviour. As a result, I am taking the SS path for a while.  PM me if you are interested in any. 
 
Cheers!
 
Nathan


----------



## magiccabbage

Pm'd


----------



## W0lfd0g

Thanks to all of those who have expressed an interest in my tubes.  The remaining items in my treasure trove have been moved to eBay (have sold the amp that uses them).
  
 http://stores.ebay.com.au/Winter-Cottage-Books/Audio-Tubes-/_i.html?_fsub=6093602015&_sid=1070780425&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
  
 Cheers!
  
 Nathan


----------



## hifimanrookie

w0lfd0g said:


> Thanks to all of those who have expressed an interest in my tubes.  The remaining items in my treasure trove have been moved to eBay (have sold the amp that uses them).
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com.au/Winter-Cottage-Books/Audio-Tubes-/_i.html?_fsub=6093602015&_sid=1070780425&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
> 
> ...



Hope u sell them all...pity i am going SS..otherwise i would probably also buy from u..good luck with the rest of the sale Nathan


----------



## Dubstep Girl

w0lfd0g said:


> Thanks to all of those who have expressed an interest in my tubes.  The remaining items in my treasure trove have been moved to eBay (have sold the amp that uses them).
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com.au/Winter-Cottage-Books/Audio-Tubes-/_i.html?_fsub=6093602015&_sid=1070780425&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 aww u sold all the good ones already 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 ty for grey glass though, can't wait to hear it!


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> aww u sold all the good ones already
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 and my 5998's wont be on sale anymore also..as they are sold together with my 337 today to a very happy 336 owner (soon to be ex-owner i guess lolz)..the little brother of the 337.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

hifimanrookie said:


> and my 5998's wont be on sale anymore also..as they are sold together with my 337 today to a very happy 336 owner (soon to be ex-owner i guess lolz)..the little brother of the 337.


 
  
 i have like 5 pairs of 5998 now, too many, not selling any though. well one of them is actually chatham 2399, and the tubes are taller than the 5998s by a bit and look really really nice.


----------



## magiccabbage

dubstep girl said:


> i have like 5 pairs of 5998 now, too many, not selling any though. well one of them is actually chatham 2399, and the tubes are taller than the 5998s by a bit and look really really nice.


 
  
 I have those also - i love the way they are huge. I wonder what is the tallest power tube - 6080


----------



## Dubstep Girl

maybe the western electric 421A, in the pictures, they look slightly fatter than 5998. maybe not though.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

These quad of GEC look very Russian to me, thoughts?
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290994638647?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649


----------



## Dubstep Girl

doesn't look like GEC to me at all...
  
 EDIT: yeah looks like they rebranded tubes. 
  
 so probably russian or something else, definitely not the legendary GEC/OSRAM/MWT type tubes....


----------



## Ultrainferno

nic rhodes said:


> These quad of GEC look very Russian to me, thoughts?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290994638647?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649


 
  
 The mini UFO near the base means they're russian, normally


----------



## Dubstep Girl

ultrainferno said:


> The mini UFO near the base means they're russian, normally


 
 oooh good call
  
 yeah ufo russian. the top part of the tube doesn't look anything like GEC either.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Guess Russian tubes are going up :rolleyes: $165 /4!


----------



## Ultrainferno

nic rhodes said:


> Guess Russian tubes are going up :rolleyes: $165 /4!


 
  
 Bidding ended. It's called rip off for n00bs. Got to love ebay!


----------



## Dubstep Girl

lol someone paid 40$ a tube for russian rebrands lol


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> lol someone paid 40$ a tube for russian rebrands lol



OMG!! :eek:


----------



## GrindingThud

Yum x 4.


----------



## skeptic

Nice find GT!  Fleabay or from an established seller?


----------



## GrindingThud

One of the usual Fleebay suspects....


skeptic said:


> Nice find GT!  Fleabay or from an established seller?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

wow!!!
  
 got a source?


----------



## GrindingThud

Was amongst the stuff in this one: http://www.ebay.com/sch/kb4dmf/m.html


dubstep girl said:


> wow!!!
> 
> got a source?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

aww all sorts of random tubes


----------



## skeptic

I admire your persistence!  I've run at least a few dozen searches for them in recent months, and the only return has been the guy selling 7802 data sheets.
  
 I wonder if anyone will ever acquire the old tooling and start manufacturing some of these highly sought after 6as7/6080 variants again...  Someone recently posted a fascinating article over in the crack thread that lays out in detail why this family of tubes is basically the only option when designing cathode-follower OTL headphone amps: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/otl_head.pdf  I keep reading that there are still tons of unused mil-spec 6080's sitting around out there, but wasn't that the same claim that was once made about the ultra-cheap tubes used in the starving student millet hybrid?  Now they're gone for good.   
  
 I thought I was dodging the bullet of shopping for nos tubes with my next amp.  But with my mainline 5-6 hours from completion, and with woo 7's also running the same tubes, I recently learned that EH just discontinued manufacturing 6c45pi's.  Here, I thought I was making life easy on myself this time around.  Instead, I get to source cold war leftovers from Russia heh.


----------



## atra4

What would you recommend as suitable replacements for the ez80's. Im running GEC 6as7g and telefunken 6dj8's. Here's my little contribution.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

wow nice tubes!!! and grados too!  how does your wa2 do with them? i found that on mine, it struggled with grados due to impedance mismatch, couldn't get super loud with them. just normal quiet kinda levels.
  
 anyways, i strongly recommend you try the RFT EZ80 (and according to a fellow member here, the RFT EZ81 is just as good as well), cheap and easy to get, very nice sounding tube, well balanced, good highs and transparency.


----------



## GrindingThud

Super nice tubes and setup indeed!! +1
Is that a violectric I see in there? I'm considering that for my setup...how do you like it?


----------



## atra4

Thanks for the kind words guys. I've been out of the headphone world for awhile, so I appreciate the tube recommendations. I'll definitely hunt down a pair of rft ez80's. I like cheap and easy.

In regards to the impedance mismatch, I do have to crank the volume pot to get some decent volume levels, past 1 o'clock. I agree with you Dubstep Girl, that the wa2 aren't able to play super loud with the ps1000. The wa22 could power them, however I preferred the wa2.

GrindingThud the violectric v200 is a great amp. I thoroughly enjoy it with the grados. It is able to power them with great control and grip. It has nice tight bass and non fatiquing highs. Honestly it presents nothing offensive and is fairly neutral. It is good at revealing the components downstream, dac, interconnects, power cables. It will not make a clinical dac sound warm. I don't know what headphones you use but I have heard the amp with the hd800 and LCD2 and they sounded great. It's a very versatile amp to own, if you're trying to figure out what type of sound signature you prefer.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

atra4 said:


> Thanks for the kind words guys. I've been out of the headphone world for awhile, so I appreciate the tube recommendations. I'll definitely hunt down a pair of rft ez80's. I like cheap and easy.
> 
> In regards to the impedance mismatch, I do have to crank the volume pot to get some decent volume levels, past 1 o'clock. I agree with you Dubstep Girl, that the wa2 aren't able to play super loud with the ps1000. The wa22 could power them, however I preferred the wa2.
> 
> GrindingThud the violectric v200 is a great amp. I thoroughly enjoy it with the grados. It is able to power them with great control and grip. It has nice tight bass and non fatiquing highs. Honestly it presents nothing offensive and is fairly neutral. It is good at revealing the components downstream, dac, interconnects, power cables. It will not make a clinical dac sound warm. I don't know what headphones you use but I have heard the amp with the hd800 and LCD2 and they sounded great. It's a very versatile amp to own, if you're trying to figure out what type of sound signature you prefer.


 
  
 i too prefer the WA2 over the WA22 and WA6-SE. the Wa22 is better in many ways though, but the WA2 has this beautiful smoothness and tone to it, and its not overly colored or warm either. the bass is slightly more bloomy than normal which is nice. 
  
 if the WA2 worked better for low impedance, i probably wouldn't own any other amp besides it


----------



## atra4

dubstep girl said:


> i too prefer the WA2 over the WA22 and WA6-SE. the Wa22 is better in many ways though, but the WA2 has this beautiful smoothness and tone to it, and its not overly colored or warm either. the bass is slightly more bloomy than normal which is nice.
> 
> if the WA2 worked better for low impedance, i probably wouldn't own any other amp besides it


 
 What I value most in any setup is tone and flow. Some setups can sound dynamic and very transparent, whilst very good, makes my brain tired. Different strokes I guess.


----------



## magiccabbage

dubstep girl said:


> i too prefer the WA2 over the WA22 and WA6-SE. the Wa22 is better in many ways though, but the WA2 has this beautiful smoothness and tone to it, and its not overly colored or warm either. the bass is slightly more bloomy than normal which is nice.
> 
> if the WA2 worked better for low impedance, i probably wouldn't own any other amp besides it


 
 yea i wish it would power low impedance also - the world would be a perfect place if it did.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Curved base pair for sale omg!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Matched-GEC-A1834-6AS7G-6080-421A-Curved-Brown-Base-f-Darkvoice-OTLs-/331045949743?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4d13e0512f


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> Curved base pair for sale omg!!!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Matched-GEC-A1834-6AS7G-6080-421A-Curved-Brown-Base-f-Darkvoice-OTLs-/331045949743?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4d13e0512f



429usd???? OMG :eek:


----------



## Dubstep Girl

I know, i just bought a pair of western electric 421a and a western electric rectifier, otherwise, id be buying these right now


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> I know, i just bought a pair of western electric 421a and a western electric rectifier, otherwise, id be buying these right now



Hey girlie..dont u have enough tubes by now? Ur to much! Sooner or later u need a dedicated room for all ur audio stuff..amps,headphones and tubes...and if u get the 2359glenn u will need even more tubes and more space... 
But seriouslyly..i take my hat of for u DSG.. Ur very passionate in what u do..and ur respectful to others and open for anything... Am honoured to know u here..and yes..am not afraid to say it in the open...ur a top gal!

Ps. Hope my 6080wb's get some time in one of ur tube amps in the future..lolz


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Thanks!! And yes they will, if i get wa2 again i will definitely try them out! Not many wa2 users have tried them


----------



## magiccabbage

nice review here from skylab  ¬  crazy to think that those tubes were so cheap back then compared to now
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/324469/review-four-6as7g-based-home-tube-headphone-amps-reviewed-and-compared


----------



## hifimanrookie

magiccabbage said:


> nice review here from skylab  ¬  crazy to think that those tubes were so cheap back then compared to now
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/324469/review-four-6as7g-based-home-tube-headphone-amps-reviewed-and-compared



Funny reading about the 337 again and only confirming what i already knew.. Skylab agrees with me..its a wonderful sounding amp! And skylab is not just anyone and he doesnt brag or say things without hearing for himself... Nuf said! And now go buy a 337..


----------



## Ultrainferno

Ypu mean you agree with Skylab as this was written in 2008. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I loved this review when I was new and looking for an amp, it made me buy the 339


----------



## hifimanrookie

ultrainferno said:


> Ypu mean you agree with Skylab as this was written in 2008.
> I loved this review when I was new and looking for an amp, it made me buy the 339



I know what u mean..his review about the blue circle headphone amp made me buy an amp of thier brand also..he is the devil!! Making us buy stuff..heheheh
About another thing
I have my 337 back...the guy who boight it from me got fired and almost begged me to take it back..and as i am a nice guy (and luckily dont have money problems) i accepted it..he was sooo happy..so i guess i have a better chair up there in the stars now 
But seriously..as i know the 337 is not wellknown its not easily sold...
So i decided to sell the tubes seperately and sell the 337 with the rare svetlana's (vintage 70ties) and the rca 5693 red hot.

And now the interesting part for u guys:

My matched pair of 5998 (chatham) and my TS 6sg7gt mesh plates (totally silent!!!!) tubes i will be selling seperately..both are matched pairs and were nos when i bought them (5988 has 200hours, mesh plates 250)

For the 5998 i want 200usd for the meshplates 60usd
And sell the 337 for the rediculously low price of 450 euro!


----------



## snip3r77

I'm currently using the La Figaro 339 with the HE500 with the 
  
 6AS7G RCA (Black Plate)
  
 7236 Tung-Sol
  
 Am I missing a lot from the 5998s and also the bendix 6080wb graphite slotted columns( is this expensive?) ?
  
 Currently listening to a lot of Trance.


----------



## hifimanrookie

snip3r77 said:


> I'm currently using the La Figaro 339 with the HE500 with the
> 
> 6AS7G RCA (Black Plate)
> 
> ...



5998 is a bit more bassheavy..the bass hits hard and sound is very powerfull..u will like it with trance and house like tiesto.. The 6080 graphite plates is a soundstage master! For he500 the 5998 is best powertube as its most powerfull tube existing..very good for harder to drive headphones..
Pm me..maybe i can help u with the first one


----------



## mullardpassion

snip3r77 said:


> I'm currently using the La Figaro 339 with the HE500 with the
> 
> 6AS7G RCA (Black Plate)
> 
> ...


 

 IMO the 5998s are slighty better than the RCA 6AS7Gs, but I don't think they are worth + $80 to pay for. I bought a pair of Tung Sol 5998s for 70Euros some while back. Today's prices are crazy. As for the Bendix, I always wanted to try one.
  
 PS: If anyone wants to exchange a Bendix 6080wb with a 5998 (a few hours usage, bought NOS), please PM me


----------



## Dubstep Girl

i just listened to the bendix 6080wb earlier, they sound really nice in the glenn otl amp. not as resolving as the others, but they have a wide soundstage and a smoothness to them, with a good amount of bass. except there is a slight hollowness to the sound but i kinda like it, it adds a nice tonality to the sound as well when combined with the smooth warmth.
  
 interestingly, i can say it makes my T1's sound like a pair of he-500s...
  
 oh, and i just cleaned my GEC tubes


----------



## MrEleventy

dubstep girl said:


>


Wow. Just wow.


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> i just listened to the bendix 6080wb earlier, they sound really nice in the glenn otl amp. not as resolving as the others, but they have a wide soundstage and a smoothness to them, with a good amount of bass. except there is a slight hollowness to the sound but i kinda like it, it adds a nice tonality to the sound as well when combined with the smooth warmth.
> 
> interestingly, i can say it makes my T1's sound like a pair of he-500s...
> 
> oh, and i just cleaned my GEC tubes



Damn girl..only on this pic alone u have more then 1000usd worth of tubes! :eek:
Hope u have ur house well secured..hehehehe oopsie

Am glad u like the 6080wb.yes i agree about that hollow thingie..but i think its because of that extreme soundstage u get that feeling..


----------



## Dubstep Girl

hifimanrookie said:


> Damn girl..only on this pic alone u have more then 1000usd worth of tubes!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 lol yeah, sort of an investment for now, if i get bored of them or end up needing some emergency money, they are there to sell. if i sold 300-400 a pair, probably like 1500$ or so i could get. the curved base are pretty much 100% NOS with one pair NIB and the straight bases, one pair is used but the other pair is NIB.
  
 its an interesting tube for sure. a different sound than all the others for sure. i really think it makes t1 sounds like he-500, that smoothness and warmth they have, as well as the fact that the 6080wb seem to have a good amount of bass. its not very deep extending but its punchy and fun. definitely a good thing to swictch it up a bit.
  
 i wonder if the slotted column version is similar.
  
 btw, that tube gets really hot! the graphite columns make them remain hot for a really long time too.


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> lol yeah, sort of an investment for now, if i get bored of them or end up needing some emergency money, they are there to sell. if i sold 300-400 a pair, probably like 1500$ or so i could get. the curved base are pretty much 100% NOS with one pair NIB and the straight bases, one pair is used but the other pair is NIB.
> 
> its an interesting tube for sure. a different sound than all the others for sure. i really think it makes t1 sounds like he-500, that smoothness and warmth they have, as well as the fact that the 6080wb seem to have a good amount of bass. its not very deep extending but its punchy and fun. definitely a good thing to swictch it up a bit.
> 
> ...



Lolz..emergency money..ur nuts girl..and funny.. 
.well..then u first have to sell them..as i am having hard times selling my perfect pair of NOS 5998's even for 150usd  but i just sold my he500.. Yeah! Now my tubes and 337 and then i am cheeky clean to receive my new rig.. 
Yeah..they get burning hot! I think its because of the graphite which works like a sink to keep the temp at its optimal temp..or something..and did u listen to the tubes when u switched off and they cool down VERY SLOWLY? U hear a very sexy ticking..just like a harddriven turbo charged car just being switched off...i loved that sound.. !! 

Yeah i agree about that addictive sound..,,that special character made me chose that tube in combo with my excellent TS mesh plates over the 5998''s i have... Since i had the bendix the 5998 they didnt get much use after that..that special sound signature is really addictive with the he500.. Especially in a really good and strong amp.. That punch doesnt only hit hard then..but fast and deep also..maybe it was also because of the TS mesh plates i used for drivers who have a very strong detaily sound also of their own also?


----------



## MDR30

Anyone able to identify this one? Print: BRIMAR 6080 FOREIGN BVA, blue print, metal base, copper heaters. Box marked BRIMAR (and Thorne, BVA). Haven't put it to test yet.
  
 Strange that it's marked "foreign", as BRIMAR is short for BRItish Made Amercian Radio tubes.


----------



## GrindingThud

Looks like a Sylvania 6080WB


----------



## Dubstep Girl

anyone interested in buying some nice 6as7g's, i'm posting most of my collection up for sale.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/696308/huge-tube-sale-5ar4-5r4-5u4-274-rectifiers-6as7g-6080-power-tubes-and-6sn7-6f8g-drivers
  
 i would like to sell to head-fiers before i post the remaining ones on ebay.


----------



## hifimanrookie

dubstep girl said:


> anyone interested in buying some nice 6as7g's, i'm posting most of my collection up for sale.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/696308/huge-tube-sale-5ar4-5r4-5u4-274-rectifiers-6as7g-6080-power-tubes-and-6sn7-6f8g-drivers
> 
> i would like to sell to head-fiers before i post the remaining ones on ebay.



Hey lady!
Contact koiloco..i think he is looking for a good rectifier for his new wa22  just trying to help out 

Good luck with the sale my friend..pity i dont have a tube amp anymore..as i would for sure buy one of ur gec pairs..!!! 

Guys..this is a chance of a million!!! This is a supersafe buy!!!


----------



## sacd lover

What head amps are people using these days that use the 6AS7/6080 and variants??? I have not been on the board in a long time and I am out of the loop. I am still using my old circa 2003 toaster style Singlepower Supra that was modded to use the 6AS7. After many years ( since 2008) I have yet to replace the original RCA black plate 6AS7G's.


----------



## MDR30

grindingthud said:


> Looks like a Sylvania 6080WB


 
  
 You may be right, but the grey plastic end looks a bit different to my Sylvania (black plastic). Also note the strange fabric between metal base and glass, haven't seen that before.


----------



## john57

mdr30 said:


> You may be right, but the grey plastic end looks a bit different to my Sylvania (black plastic). Also note the strange fabric between metal base and glass, haven't seen that before.


 
 That is common with 6080WC tubes.


----------



## skeptic

sacd lover said:


> What head amps are people using these days that use the 6AS7/6080 and variants???


 
  
 Pretty much all OTL's use them.  I'd have to dig for the link in the crack thread, but there's a very detailed technical article that explains why this family of tubes is pretty much the only suitable option when designing cathode follower headphone amps.  In a nutshell, its the only viable way to get the output impedance down (low enough for high impedance cans anyways) without the use of transformers.  
  
 The usual suspects running this power tube are the bottlehead crack, woo 2, woo 3, darkvoice/lafigaro amps, singlepowers, etc.
  
 Edit - found the link to the article:  http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/otl_head.pdf


----------



## G600

Have anyone tried the Thomson 6080WA (likely to be French production) ?
  
 And what about Philips 6080, are they all Mullard made (and what is a fair price for those) ?
  
 I'm also looking for a quad of Bendix. After a dozen emails, I found a "decent stock" of graphite 6080, for 175 USD each.
 Yep gents, you read right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I'm waiting for vacuumtubes to reply, but if you have another clue to find those, I take it.


----------



## Artsi

Greetings from Finland
  
 I managed to build DIY amp that uses 2 6SN7 and 2 6AS7 or 6080. And so i have joined to tube rollers of these monsters. It seems that with these tubes i can drive easily even more difficult headphones. Driver tubes in this photo are Sylvania 6SN7GTA.

  
 Only tubes i have yet are these Philips ECG 6080WC USA. I guess that these are made in old sylvania factory.

 Hope i get soon Russian 6N13S '73 svetlanas and can try to listen differences between these. So far i have been very happy with 6080WC's, but i need to read more this thread and enjoy my new amp.


----------



## rosgr63

Nice looking amp.
  
 Are your drivers Sylvania?
 50's-60's Svetlana are supposed to be even better.
  
 Happy Listening


----------



## GrindingThud

What a nice build, well executed. 
You will find a ton of great info in this thread and also the various Woo Audio and little dot threads that have amps that use the same tubes as yours.
There are also a couple monster 6SN7 threads that are invaluable.


----------



## Artsi

rosgr63 said:


> Nice looking amp.
> 
> Are your drivers Sylvania?
> 50's-60's Svetlana are supposed to be even better.
> ...


 
 Drivers in photo are Sylvania 6SN7GTA's. I have some pairs of 6SN7's to compare.
  
 May i ask what kind of electricity consumption does factory made 6AS7 amps have? And how hot do they get after couple hours of usage? Mine gets pretty hot, but still not hand burning and consumption is 88w.


----------



## rosgr63

I haven't checked the power consumption but they do run hot.
  
 If your drivers plate voltage is below 250V you can use 6SL7's too.
 If your transformer can handle 1A heater current for each driver you can try the ECC32.
  
 Be aware tube addiction is just round the corner.


----------



## Artsi

rosgr63 said:


> I haven't checked the power consumption but they do run hot.
> 
> If your drivers plate voltage is below 250V you can use 6SL7's too.
> If your transformer can handle 1A heater current for each driver you can try the ECC32.
> ...


 
 I have some 6SL7's too and they work very good. ECC32 tubes seems to be out of my budget. Perhaps one day i'll buy pair of RCA 6AS7's.
  
 Received today pair 6N13S tubes. One tube has weird hum problem. It stops when i touch tube in the right spot on the glass. Hum follows to other channel if i change tubes, so problem is not with amplifier itself. Hope this hum stops after some burn-in.
  
 Tube rolling already grabbed me in with little dot mk2.
  
 Edit: 6N13S hum stopped after couple warm-ups... and came back too!


----------



## westermac

I recently acquired a Woo WA3 so I have been lurking in this thread for awhile; thank you to all who have contributed as I have benefited from your insight and experience.
  
 My latest 6AS7G is somewhat of a mystery to me; I was hoping someone here could shed some light on it. This top getter, black plate GE 6AS7G has a few unusual distinctions: the box is marked Canadian General Electric, it has copper grid rods and a clear glass top much like my JAN Chatham 6AS7G, and the base is marked with the usual GE logo, but in orangish ink with a 'PQ' in front of it (I assume this stands for premium quality as it is used elsewhere). The only other markings I can find are a 'C' on the glass itself. 
  
 I haven't had a chance to give it a listen yet, but I will gladly post my impressions for what they're worth when I've had time to check it out, as well as a picture of this tube.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Pics or it didn't happen


----------



## westermac

ultrainferno said:


> Pics or it didn't happen


 
  
 Thought you might say that! Here's some pics...
  

  
  
 EDIT: Had the chance to spend a little time listening to this tube. It reminds me quite a bit of my JAN Chatham, perhaps even a tad livelier/snappier, with a bit smaller/more focused soundstage and more detailed bass (most notably I could more clearly hear the texture of an upright bass, which tends to come across boomy when recorded).


----------



## magiccabbage

got some rca and chatam 6as7g's today to go with my wa2. I wonder how they will hold up against the 5998's


----------



## skeptic

They should make for a somewhat different presentation since they will cause an increase in your WA2's output impedance as compared to 5998's or 7236's.  In general, and particularly with the hd800's given their impedance curve, this should fatten up the bass and mid-bass but it will be a little bit less tight.


----------



## G600

Dear gents.
 Could anybody help me with 6080 tubes from Mitcham plant, UK ?
 I've read they could be labeled as Mullard or Philips, and maybe some other, but I need your help to find who's who...
 What about Valvo and Telefunken 6080 for example ? It seems prices can go very high from one brand to another, for the same tube at the end...


----------



## rosgr63

Repeating an earlier question, has anybody tried the Thomson CSF 6080WA?
  
 It looks like they have copper grid posts so they might not be that bad.


----------



## G600

rosgr63 said:


> Repeating an earlier question, has anybody tried the Thomson CSF 6080WA?
> 
> It looks like they have copper grid posts so they might not be that bad.


 
 +1
  
 It's possible for me to score them at a decent cost, but I don't have many points to compare.
 Where are you from ? If possible, I might send you the number you need to run your amp, and you'll tell us what you think of them ?
  
 Have you tried Mitcham 6080 (Mullard and rebrands) ?


----------



## rosgr63

I have tried the Mullard & Brimar variants but didn't care much about them.
  
 I was very lucky to score a NOS quad Thomson CSF 6080WA for $8 when the ebay Gods were asleep.
 It'll be sometime before I get them though.
  
 I am based in EU and you?


----------



## GrindingThud

Shhhhh, don't wake them.


----------



## G600

rosgr63 said:


> I have tried the Mullard & Brimar variants but didn't care much about them.
> 
> I was very lucky to score a NOS quad Thomson CSF 6080WA for $8 when the ebay Gods were asleep.
> It'll be sometime before I get them though.
> ...


 
 Ok for the English 6080, I'll keep my money then.
  
 You are a lucky man to trick ebay gods... They made me loose an auction on 7 Bendix red bank 6080 2 days ago, still angry about that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think I'll wait for your report on those Thomson. I'm French and I can buy them in quite large quantities for 4€ per tube.
 If they are a bargain, I'll buy a box of them and forward them cheaply to foreign audiophiles.
 Lucky you to have scored them, otherwise it would have been a pleasure to lend you a few !


----------



## rosgr63

Merci Beaucoup & Bonne Année!
  
 My tube mentor is in Annecy.


----------



## G600

rosgr63 said:


> My tube mentor is in Annecy.


 




  
 We have the chance to have some experts here, but some have passed away...
 Maybe are you reffering to Francis Ibre, who's famous here... but it has nothing to deal with this topic.


----------



## rosgr63

Not at all I was referring to my dear friend Bruno who is a tube expert and addict like me.
  
 We share experiences, learn and experiment with amps and tubes all the time.
 This crazy hobby has brought us together and we have introduced some interesting tubes to the head-fi community.


----------



## G600

Very nice !
  
 Tube things are very addictive indeed, how they work, how there are built and how they sound.
 I wish I was born earlier, when they were everywhere, and when there was a competition between manufacturers...
 Now, hypster things and expensive stuffs are just round the corner...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

rosgr63 said:


> I was very lucky to score a NOS quad Thomson CSF 6080WA for $8 when the ebay Gods were asleep. It'll be sometime before I get them though.


 
  
 so it was you who out bid me


----------



## rosgr63

Sorry Nic, didn't do it on purpose.
  
 I also got some 5998's from the same seller cheap.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

No worries, I bid low as well. Interested in your views however. I have asked about other French tubes recently here and was was told not to bother, however my experrience was very different. The ones I have (not 6080s) are high quality.


----------



## rosgr63

They look very well made.
  
 Not to forget that the Neotron 6SN7/6SL7 are very rare.


----------



## G600

rosgr63 said:


> I also got some 5998's from the same seller cheap.


 
  
 What can be considered as a good price for NOS testing 5998 ?
 I don't see many (probably they are more on US only auctions), but some can be won below the average price I see.


----------



## snip3r77

I think around ~US90(per pc ) is cool


----------



## G600

$90 is a very common price, I'm new in tubes but I don't consider it that good.


----------



## hifimanrookie

g600 said:


> $90 is a very common price, I'm new in tubes but I don't consider it that good.



For a NOS and matched pair of 5998 of good quality 180usd is a good pice.


----------



## G600

In the first ebay results you can buy NOS pairs for about 170 USD, so still skeptical...


----------



## hifimanrookie

g600 said:


> In the first ebay results you can buy NOS pairs for about 170 USD, so still skeptical...



When i got into tubes once i got an advice from one of the guys who i consider a master in tubes knowledge here on headfi i always kept as a rule..dont buy on ebay..as there are lots of bad sellers there..instead find respectable reputable tube stores... All my tubes i bought that way. 

Ofcourse there are good sellers...but u will only find out when u open uR package


----------



## G600

Yep, I agree.
  
 I made a mistake in my post, I was talking about google results, not eBay.


----------



## hifimanrookie

g600 said:


> Yep, I agree.
> 
> I made a mistake in my post, I was talking about google results, not eBay.
> :wink_face:


----------



## rosgr63

I have made some great friends and some foes through ebay.
  
 Some tubes I can't find anywhere else but ebay.
  
 I have mostly overpaid via ebay, but sometimes there is no other choice.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

rosgr63 said:


> I have made some great friends and some foes through ebay.
> 
> Some tubes I can't find anywhere else but ebay.
> 
> I have mostly overpaid via ebay, but sometimes there is no other choice.


 





 
  
 i still gotta put the rest of my tubes up on ebay, there might be some other 6AS7G/6080/421A/5998/7236's popping up soon


----------



## Artsi

It seems that Philips ECG 6080WC sound improves very much with many hours of burn-in. When i got those Russian 6N13S's i realised new 6080WC's sounded pretty dull and lack of detail. So i tried to listen with russians, but one tube had buzz and hum problem and it did not go away, so i was forced to listen with 6080's.
  
 I think these 6080WC are not even near of the best tubes, but after serious burn-in they sound quite pleasing. And these are very cheap tubes in this class.
  
 Hope to get multiple 6N5S '65, 6N13S '66, Rca 6AS7G and pair of used philips miniwatt 6080/ecc230 Holland next week. This means hard times for my diy amp.


----------



## Artsi

Got more tubes. Won't say anything about sound. Just few hours of listening with these.
  
 Philips ECC230 used and paired with similar looking philips 6080. These were used, but they seem to work fine.

 6N5S (6H5C) '65. Don't know is there any difference with 6N13S. 

 And finally i got RCA 6AS7G's '69 and '67. I believe these are grey-plated.


----------



## Oskari

artsi said:


> Philips ECC230 used and paired with similar looking philips 6080. These were used, but they seem to work fine.


 
  
 That reminds me of something I wrote quite a while ago here:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/30#post_5521873
  
 I wonder if your tubes were made by Mullard at Mitcham. Can you check the codes?


----------



## G600

Their construction is not likely to be from Mitcham I think.
 But you are right, let's see the codes.


----------



## Oskari

g600 said:


> Their construction is not likely to be from Mitcham I think.


 
  
 That could well be. This one is clearly different: http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0725.htm


----------



## G600

Different but without the vertical pieces between the micas


----------



## Artsi

oskari said:


> That reminds me of something I wrote quite a while ago here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/30#post_5521873
> 
> I wonder if your tubes were made by Mullard at Mitcham. Can you check the codes


 
 ECC230 has codes AJO R7J. 6080 does not have any codes, but structure looks same.


----------



## Oskari

artsi said:


> ECC230 has codes AJO R7J.


 
  
 Thanks. This seems to be an early (1957) version of the Mitcham 6080. Indeed there is one at http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aah0004.htm


----------



## G600

So it's a very good pick !
 My bad


----------



## Karllin

Hello,

I recently bought a quad of WE 421A tubes for my little dot MK VI+. The improvement over the stock 6080 tubes is amazing. Soundstage, gain, bass...all improved. I am curious about the construction of the 421A. It seems there might be several variations. All the photos I have seen have two round or D getters at the bottom of the tube, pig tail/ twisted wires at the bottom.r

However, mine seem nearly identical to the 5998. No pig tail wires, and three have the getters at the top. One of mine has a round getter at the top and one on the side. I just wonder why all the inconsistency and what makes a 421a a 421a? The specs? 

Thank in advance for any thoughts!


----------



## MrEleventy

I picked up a pair of NOS/strongly tested Amperex 6080s for relatively cheap. Haven't seen them mentioned anywhere so I got curious. Here's some pics. Sounds rather nice thus far, definitely enjoyable sounding.


----------



## Skylab

Those are GE made 6080's. Nice tubes, but indeed generally available fairly cheap.


----------



## MrEleventy

skylab said:


> Those are GE made 6080's. Nice tubes, but indeed generally available fairly cheap.




Skylab to the rescue! Thanks for the info.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

karllin said:


> Hello,
> 
> I recently bought a quad of WE 421A tubes for my little dot MK VI+. The improvement over the stock 6080 tubes is amazing. Soundstage, gain, bass...all improved. I am curious about the construction of the 421A. It seems there might be several variations. All the photos I have seen have two round or D getters at the bottom of the tube, pig tail/ twisted wires at the bottom.r
> 
> ...




I have 421A and to me they are very close to 5998, its still debated and im not sure theres a clear answer yet, but probably just 5998 with better specs and whatnot, to me they sound like 5998 but perhaps a little more air / treble extension. They do look nicer and the glass is slightly fatter than the 5998 though but otherwise they sound almost the same to me. But yeah not sure if equal to 5998 or slightly better 5998 or an upgraded 5998







Was gonna say. They definitely are ge 
I dont think amperex made 6080


----------



## Karllin

Hello Dubstep Girl,

Do your 421a tubes have double round getters at the bottom? I am just wondering why mine are different from others I have seen. Three of mine have the round getters at the top, one has a getter at the top and one on the side. None of mine have the twisted wires at the bottom. These are the only 421a I have seen that have the same bottom construction as the 5998. I am guessing western electric labeled these 421a due to their specs. Kind of like binned chips today. But they are definitely built different from most the 421a I have seen.

Thanks,

Karl


----------



## DefQon

skylab said:


> Those are GE made 6080's. Nice tubes, but indeed generally available fairly cheap.




Even the typeset of the etching gives it away as a GE tube.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

karllin said:


> Hello Dubstep Girl,
> 
> Do your 421a tubes have double round getters at the bottom? I am just wondering why mine are different from others I have seen. Three of mine have the round getters at the top, one has a getter at the top and one on the side. None of mine have the twisted wires at the bottom. These are the only 421a I have seen that have the same bottom construction as the 5998. I am guessing western electric labeled these 421a due to their specs. Kind of like binned chips today. But they are definitely built different from most the 421a I have seen.
> 
> ...




I have to check later but mine are slightly different i think as well. Or maybe not. 






defqon said:


> Even the typeset of the etching gives it away as a GE tube.




+1


----------



## Skylab

defqon said:


> Even the typeset of the etching gives it away as a GE tube.




In fact that is the PRIMARY thing that gives it away as a GE tube. When you see that typeset and those dots, it's GE.


----------



## punit

Has anyone heard the GEC 6080WA ? How do they compare vs. GEC 6AS7G ?


----------



## spacequeen7

bought a pair of 6080 GE/AMPEREX and was wondering if one is driver and the other one power (can I use them both at the same time ? )
 Thanks
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/251440325350?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


----------



## Dubstep Girl

spacequeen7 said:


> bought a pair of 6080 GE/AMPEREX and was wondering if one is driver and the other one power (can I use them both at the same time ? )
> Thanks
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251440325350?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649


 
 6080 is power tube. both are power


----------



## spacequeen7

why different size tho ?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Do all 2 liter engine cars look the same then?


----------



## spacequeen7

ultrainferno said:


> Do all 2 liter engine cars look the same then?


 
 pretty much ..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ..2.0 vs. 5.0 is another story


----------



## hifimanrookie

spacequeen7 said:


> pretty much ..  ..2.0 vs. 5.0 is another story



Better not say that outloud on any car-nut forum as STI, silvia, 240sx, evo , GTI or even older cosworth (and more) affectionees will kick u in the balls for that statement..hehehehehe
And same thing goes for tubes..u have lots of sizes of the glass for powertubes..even different forms of glass..straight glass or bulb formed etc. ... Or for drivers u even have the odd looking 5693 red hots..those have a metal enclosure instead of glass..lolz
But we forgive u for saying that as we are not like those fanatic car-nuts....oops i am one..but even i forgive u..


----------



## spacequeen7

what would be consider top tier when it comes to soundstage ?,I'm in the process of ordering  Tung-Sol 5998 and want one more to complete the upgrade


----------



## hifimanrookie

spacequeen7 said:


> what would be consider top tier when it comes to soundstage ?,I'm in the process of ordering  Tung-Sol 5998 and want one more to complete the upgrade



For me the bendix 6080wb with graphite plates was the master of soundstage..not even the 5998 came close..and i had both.. 
But u cant use both at the same time as both are powertubes...
A good driver tube and one of the best i ever heard is the tungsol sj7gt mesh plates..those are hard to get and probably expensive now...but one of the best..and i also loved how the RCA 5693 red hots portraited the soundstage..and they are affordable..


----------



## spacequeen7

hifimanrookie said:


> For me the bendix 6080wb with graphite plates was the master of soundstage..not even the 5998 came close..and i had both..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 like this one ?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Those are the ones!


----------



## hifimanrookie

Yep  but try to find quiet ones...many are noisy..i was in luck i found noiseless ones...or otherwise get the sj7wgt..those are known to be quiet..i think ultrainferno also has those last ones..dont know if they compare soundwise


----------



## Ultrainferno

I have them somewhere in a box yes


----------



## spacequeen7

ultrainferno said:


> I have *them* somewhere in a box yes


 
 maybe you can spare one crumb  for this hungry little mouse ..pretty please


----------



## Ultrainferno

Sell my collection? Nooooo


----------



## hifimanrookie

He doesnt even sell his beloved 339 eventhough he got himself a custommade glenn tube amp..so i am guessing he wont sell easily hehehe


----------



## Ultrainferno

hifimanrookie said:


> He doesnt even sell his beloved 339 eventhough he got himself a custommade glenn tube amp..so i am guessing he wont sell easily hehehe


 
  
 I have 3 OTL amps and one 300b amp in my tube amp collection. Why would I sell my precious tubes


----------



## Oskari

hifimanrookie said:


> tungsol sj7gt mesh plates.. RCA 5693


 
  


spacequeen7 said:


> like this one ?


 
  
 NOT in a DV 336SE! (If that's what we're talking about. Are we?)


----------



## Ultrainferno

I am talking about a 339, I have no idea why the posters here need them


----------



## hifimanrookie

ultrainferno said:


> I am talking about a 339, I have no idea why the posters here need them


 

 i was talking about tubes for a 337..lolz


----------



## Oskari

Plenty of lolz around if an amp gets fubared...


----------



## spacequeen7

oskari said:


> NOT in a DV 336SE! (If that's what we're talking about. Are we?)


 
 yeap..I just find out about this ,I guess I have to take my toys and hit the road ->6SN7 Tube Addicts
 P.S. I appreciate all the help I received ,learn few things and found my next power tube 
 Thanks


----------



## mrAdrian

I realize this might be a good place to ask...
  
 Has anyone tried both the LF339/DV337 and the Little Dot mk6 (or mk8)? The insane headfi-er me is growing in power and challenges the sane side of me to sell my 339 for a LD balanced amp. The justification was 'to better use your balanced NFB10'...


----------



## DefQon

The VI+ is big step ahead of either the LF/DV both SE and balanced.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Have you listened to the 337, 339 and that LD? No attack, just checking. If yes: what is the difference between the 3 models. If no, why the recommendation
  
 Thanks


----------



## hifimanrookie




----------



## kramer5150

hifimanrookie said:


>


 
 x2... the 337/9 are dual mono, coupled only by input and output common grounds (EDIT...at least thats my understanding of them).  The two single ended channels internally are about as separated as possible L to R.  Would be interesting to compare them up against a full balanced setup.


----------



## skeptic

There was a really interesting debate on amb's site about the benefits vs. detriments of "balanced amps."  Note that these are better described as bridged or differential/push-pull amps, depending on their topology.  Technically, the term balanced really relates to cable design (intended for common noise rejection over long runs), but the term has been totally bastardized and misused to death over the years on head-fi.  
  
 In any event, contrary to frequent claims that balanced is better, if you agree with the engineer from benchmark, building a "balanced" headphone amp is actually a mistake in that it raises output impedance, lowers damping by 50%, and adds noise and distortion, while doubling the component cost of the product. 
  
 See the first and last pages of this thread for a pretty lively exchange on the topic: http://www.amb.org/forum/benchmark-engineer-on-balanced-v-unbalanced-headphone-amps-t326-30.html


----------



## MDR30

Have GEC and Chatham 6AS7G and Tung Sol 5998 which all sound great but they're quite microphonic, sounding like a bedspring when you tap on them. Does this affect the signal in a headphone amp? Would be interesting to hear your experiences with this.


----------



## hifimanrookie

mdr30 said:


> Have GEC and Chatham 6AS7G and Tung Sol 5998 which all sound great but they're quite microphonic, sounding like a bedspring when you tap on them. Does this affect the signal in a headphone amp? Would be interesting to hear your experiences with this.



I had that too a bit on my 337.. That was until i got myself these affordable feets and put 4 of them under my 337... Vibration was non existent afterwards..even if u tapped on the case of the amp, it felt like u tapped on something solid!:

Herbie's Tender foots! Dont use ur tube amp without them..hehehe


http://herbiesaudiolab.net/compfeet.htm

With me they did wonders... And to my ears sound got more fleshy..bass hits harder... But that can also be placebo effect..but that the microphobic effect got less is a fact..try them..they are really affordable


----------



## MDR30

Thanks, will try something in that area. Sure wanna keep those good sounding tubes and it's really only a problem if the amp is disturbed by movements, foot steps etc.


----------



## spacequeen7

where exactly Haltron 6AS7G A1834 stacks up on a 6AS7G list ,is $150 to much to pay for it ?


----------



## Skylab

You would need to post a picture of the tube. Haltron is only a rebrander - they didn't make any tubes. So we would need a picture to identify what it actually is.


----------



## spacequeen7

skylab said:


> You would need to post a picture of the tube. Haltron is only a rebrander - they didn't make any tubes. So we would need a picture to identify what it actually is.


----------



## Oskari

That's the real thing: GEC/MOV/Hammersmith A1834/6AS7G.


----------



## spacequeen7

oskari said:


> That's the real thing: GEC/MOV/Hammersmith A1834/6AS7G.


 
 is it better then Chatham or TS 5998 tho and worth the $ ?


----------



## Dubstep Girl

spacequeen7 said:


> is it better then Chatham or TS 5998 tho and worth the $ ?


 
  
 i think its better, less gain than the TS 5998 though, its the same as any other 6AS7G. 
  
 soundwise, i prefer it over the 5998 but the 5998 has a little more bass.
  
 of course, the GEC 6AS7G is as good as these tubes get, beautiful warm tube sound with perfect tone and lots of detail and extension on both ends. excellent tube.


----------



## Skylab

Yup that's the real deal GEC alright and $150 would be a good price for one that's tested. It's my favorite 6AS7G variant.


----------



## Ultrainferno

That's the one from ebay 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 That price is still going up when it comes to closing time in 17 hours


----------



## doco

well the bidding for that haltron 6as7g just expired a few mins ago as i type this. i had my eyes set on it too, but i'm unwilling to spend more than $140 + shipping on it.


----------



## spacequeen7

^^ I have to light that baby up in order to post little pic


----------



## G600

Have you received your Thomsons rosgr63 ?


----------



## rosgr63

Hi G600, yes I have a month ago.
 The looked as they just came out of the factory, and tested well in my tester.
 I never amp tested them as I was busy with some other tubes.


----------



## G600

Yep, I'm sure you do !
  
 Glad they arived safely. Indeed they look like new, they were manufactered quite late (I've read in the 80s), and stored carefully.
  
 Looking for your amp-test !


----------



## rosgr63

Have you tried them?


----------



## G600

Nope, I was waiting for your try to decide if I buy some or not (no hurry).


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Thomson and these era French tubes seem very smart and well put together. Mine are here but also untested atm.


----------



## JamieMcC

Quiet a few of the Thomson French surplus tubes on ebay at the moment I am tempted to snag one to try with the my BHCrack


----------



## Ultrainferno

Link?


----------



## JamieMcC

ultrainferno said:


> Link?


 
  Typing "6080 Thomson" in the google or ebay search box normally works for me


----------



## Ultrainferno

Got it, the weird thing is they didn't show up in my automatic daily searches so I figured the title was something special


----------



## kchew

I got my pair two weeks ago but I've only put less than 20 hours on them. Hence I can't really comment on how they sound, but they are enjoyable. I'd consider them a step above the Tung Sol 6AS7 I guess.

On a somewhat related note, the stock boxes are *huge*. You could probably fit the 596 inside quite snugly.


----------



## JamieMcC

kchew said:


> I got my pair two weeks ago but I've only put less than 20 hours on them. Hence I can't really comment on how they sound, but they are enjoyable. I'd consider them a step above the Tung Sol 6AS7 I guess.
> 
> On a somewhat related note, the stock boxes are *huge*. You could probably fit the 596 inside quite snugly.


 
  
 Any chance of a close up pic of the plate structure?


----------



## kchew

jamiemcc said:


> Any chance of a close up pic of the plate structure?


 
  
 Here you go:
  

  
  
 And when I said the box was big, here's a comaprison with the 6080, CV378 big bottle and 6SN7:


----------



## JamieMcC

Thanks I see what you mean about the box!


----------



## spacequeen7

I was recently trying to smooth out the treble harshness on my HE-400/DV336SE without moving EQ..here is the recipe (I recently bought two of this tubes and I'm glad I did)
*6080 GE/AMPEREX (five star-red)*
 ​tube is quieter then my other power tubes but with a little extra gain this tube is a pleasure via 400s  (very detailed/punchy bass )
 Three tube combination Mullard ECC85/6AQ8 (T1) +6080 GE/Amperex for *power* +6SN7GTB


----------



## Dubstep Girl

kchew said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cossor GZ37 is a nice tube


----------



## doco

5998 came in from vacuumtubes yesterday. the test result sticker on the box show as
  
 gm - 13.25 / 13.55             85%
 plate current - 71.1 / 66.4      70%
 brand - Tung Sol
 construction - Black Plate
  
 i'm guessing those are indeed NOS levels like their site says? i don't know much about testing tubes or reading tube test results. i'm a happy guy with the 5998 aside from being a little bit concerned about the test sticker result


----------



## spacequeen7

I was expecting little improvement over Chatham 2399 but didn't expect that much ...just wow,the detail clarity ..it just does everything right 
 P.S. I cleaned the pins with 5% clear vinegar (yes that's the one from ebay)


----------



## Oskari

Looking good.


----------



## spacequeen7

I'm very pleased with this one ,Thank you


----------



## Dubstep Girl

Oh thats the haltron one that took a while to sell?


----------



## spacequeen7

dubstep girl said:


> Oh thats the haltron one that took a while to sell?


 
 7 days


----------



## hodgjy

doco said:


> 5998 came in from vacuumtubes yesterday. the test result sticker on the box show as
> 
> gm - 13.25 / 13.55             85%
> plate current - 71.1 / 66.4      70%
> ...


 
  
 I really don't like vacuumtubes.net at all.  They push off crap as "tested and certified" more often than I can to experience ever again.  They'll never get another dollar from me.


----------



## magiccabbage

hodgjy said:


> I really don't like vacuumtubes.net at all.  They push off crap as "tested and certified" more often than I can to experience ever again.  They'll never get another dollar from me.


 
 I bought 5998's from them also. They are very micro-phonic but i couldn't be bothered sending them back because i live in Ireland.


----------



## JamieMcC

I have found TC tubes to be good not only do they use  a Amplitrex AT1000 they even test for excessive noise and microphonics with OTL headphone amplifiers like the Crack. I brought some nos TS 5998's for $75 each with free shipping to the UK!  
  
http://tctubes.com/headphone-amp-tubes.aspx


----------



## hodgjy

magiccabbage said:


> I bought 5998's from them also. They are very micro-phonic but i couldn't be bothered sending them back because i live in Ireland.


 
  
 Back when 5998s were still listed at $25 on their website, I bought 4 of them.  Suddenly, their price went to to $40 in their confirmation emails.  3 of the 4 tubes were rubbish when they arrived, and when I tried to send them back, they said it was my amp at fault.  I finally complained enough and they took the 3 tubes back.  
  
 Very unstrustworthy folks.


----------



## magiccabbage

hodgjy said:


> Back when 5998s were still listed at $25 on their website, I bought 4 of them.  Suddenly, their price went to to $40 in their confirmation emails.  3 of the 4 tubes were rubbish when they arrived, and when I tried to send them back, they said it was my amp at fault.  I finally complained enough and they took the 3 tubes back.
> 
> Very unstrustworthy folks.


 
 frank1 also said that they were dodgy to deal with at times. I will look elsewhere in future.


----------



## spacequeen7

doco said:


> 5998 came in from vacuumtubes yesterday. the test result sticker on the box show as
> 
> gm - 13.25 / 13.55             85%
> plate current - 71.1 / 66.4      70%
> ...


 
 I would advice you to contact them ,I recently received very similar tested tube and I'm getting replacement 
  


> My apologies in that a tube that tests that low should never have been sent out in the first place. I will have to have a long talk with my audio tech about his work. The returned tube checked out on our Amplitrex AT1000 tester at:
> 
> Side 1    73% emission, 84% gm    Side 2    65% emission, 86% gm
> 
> ...


----------



## doco

thanks spacequeen7. i sent them an e-mail asking for a 5998 replacement with higher test ratings and used this thread (and your post) as a reference in my e-mail. now i wait to see how they will reply tomorrow. i mean their site says they store NOS and factory-new tubes. i knew the test results looked concerning and your post only confirmed my suspicion.


----------



## TheGrumpyOldMan

My experience with vacuumtubes.net has been... varied. They obviously are more of a generic tube seller than one particularly concerned with audio performance. While they measure them, they don't seem to do any matching or actual listening. But OK, the prices are competitive for an actual retail site (as opposed to some dodgy fleabay sellers) I got some good 5998s through them, but also one that had pops & crackle on warmup, and another with a slight hiss, but I accept that; such are the vagaries of NOS tubes.
  
 However more recently I ordered some 12AX7s, 3 incl. one spare: one was fine, one had a bit of hum but was at least working (the usual NOS gamble) but the third one was DOA, no visible physical damage, no problem with the getter material, just no current flow (or glow) when inserted into the amp (no problem with other tubes in the same socket)
  
 I emailed them, explaining that I can live with the humming one but at least I'd like them to do something about the DOA one and they never even bothered to reply... So though you may pay a premium on some other sites that do actual testing and matching, it may work out better in the long run...


----------



## Ultrainferno

I found a couple of nice tubes today
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio/8445#post_10270640
  
 Can anyone identify this tube?


----------



## kramer5150

ultrainferno said:


> I found a couple of nice tubes today
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio/8445#post_10270640
> 
> Can anyone identify this tube?


 
  
 I wonder if its a 6082?  6080 and 6082 are very similar looking at a glance.  I don't have any personal experience with the 6082, and I cant post pictures... I just saw them on the shelf at a local surplus/vintage electronic parts store about a week ago.  Theres always a certain element of "plug and pray" with used/NOS tubes... Good Luck in your search!!


----------



## Ultrainferno

They have been identified as CV6040
  
 Am I glad I found all these Bendix tubes. They sound brilliant! Fav tube!


----------



## rosgr63

Lieven has found another variant, so here is the updated Bendix 6080WB list:
  
 1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods.
 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods
 3. Holed Plates with Steel Rods
 4. Rectangular Plates with Steel Rods
 5. Slotted Plates Curved Face with Copper Grid Rods
 6. Slotted Plates with Curved Slot and Curved Face.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Maybe it is just an "error" in production. We should see more before confirming


----------



## rosgr63

I doubt it, they were made to such high quality standards that they would reject them.
  
 Any way we just keep an eye if more turn up, or somebody confirms your find.


----------



## Ultrainferno

anyway, they all sound stunning.


----------



## JamieMcC

I moved the BHCrack down stairs yesterday so it could be used with the turntable as source. I had spent some time fine tuning the tt previously and had not listened to it with phones since I had made a few mods to the Crack.
  
 I don't think I have ever heard it sound better with the GEC.


----------



## MDR30

magiccabbage said:


> I bought 5998's from them also. They are very micro-phonic but i couldn't be bothered sending them back because i live in Ireland.


 
  
  
 Also had microphonic 5998 from vacuumtubes.net, with not up to standard values - sold as NOS? No good.


----------



## skeptic

Thanks for all the warnings about vacuumtubes.net.  I've flirted with the idea of purchasing from them many many times.  Never got around to it, and absent some serious evidence of reform, it sounds like that's for the best.  Appreciate this info greatly.


----------



## bdr529

rosgr63 said:


> Lieven has found another variant, so here is the updated Bendix 6080WB list:
> 
> 1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods.
> 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods
> ...




Are you counting variances in construction besides the plates? I have two slots square plates with different mixes of mica and ceramic spaces and bits of metal at the top. I think those are heat spreaders?


----------



## rosgr63

I was concentrating on plate differences.
 I have some with different type heat sinks/retainers but I thought it would get too complex to account for all differences.
  
 Please post photos for references.


----------



## SNSDluv

Can someone identify these tubes and if they are good and approximate the price?


----------



## Skylab

They are Russian, and not worth more than a few dollars each.

BTW that doesn't mean they sound bad...but a lot of times people ask silly prices for the rebranded Russian tubes, and it's much better to just buy actual Svetlana branded ones as they can be had quite inexpensively.

Oh and by way of educating, the inverted saucer getter cup is the absolute dead giveaway.


----------



## Ultrainferno

skylab said:


> They are Russian, and not worth more than a few dollars each.
> 
> BTW that doesn't mean they sound bad...but a lot of times people ask silly prices for the rebranded Russian tubes, and it's much better to just buy actual Svetlana branded ones as they can be had quite inexpensively.
> 
> Oh and by way of educating, the inverted saucer getter cup is the absolute dead giveaway.


 
  
 The saucer does it every time! I have some really nice sounding Svetlana 6N13S


----------



## hodgjy

ultrainferno said:


> The saucer does it every time! I have some really nice sounding Svetlana 6N13S


 
 The Russian tube is pretty under-rated.  It has a slight veil to it, but it has a nice warmth to it and it's usually dead silent.


----------



## SNSDluv

Does anyone know if there are any sonic differences between the Tung-Sol 6080WA with Westinghouse label or without?
 Heard people say the one with Westinghouse pairs really well with HD700. Please let me know!


----------



## MJS242

This might be slightly off topic, but I know a lot of smart tube guys hang out here.  I was wondering if anyone has had any experience trying to acquire tubes outside of the usual means (ebay, head-fi, online stores).  For example, has anyone tried hitting up estate sales or trying to find that old guys tube closet?  Given the number of tube types vs the number that would be useful in audio applications (like the 6AS7G and variants) it seems like it would be easy to find people with old tubes, but difficult to find ones that would be desirable.


----------



## hodgjy

I've tried pawn shops with little success.  I've bought and sold tubes here in the F/S forums.  Other places you could check for tubes are military surplus stores (military pulls of tubes are common), HAM radio clubs/forums, and junk/antique stores.
  
 Tubes are out there.


----------



## JamieMcC

I often see old valve radios listed in my local free adds as free to good home for restoration perhaps I should go take a look next time I see one listed. The ex military auction lots I have seen the tubes are normally in large mixed lots, so not much good if buying for personal use.


----------



## MJS242

Thanks for the recommendations, some of those resources I've never thought of.  
  
 Let's say hypothetically there is an estate sale, and the owner/previous owners have a bunch of tubes stashed away because the owner was a TV repair guy way back in the day.  What are the odds of finding worthwhile tubes in that situation? 5%? Less than 5%?  I'm wondering if this is a worthwhile approach, or am I just better off buying a lotto ticket.  I don't want to be that guy on ebay selling a lot of 150 NOS/NIB tubes in a giant box with a starting price of 20 bucks and zero bids.


----------



## hodgjy

Back in the day, most tubes were not used in audio.  Creative audio guys experimented and found the tube families that sounded good in audio.  A box full of tubes won't be audio tubes, but chances of some being used in audio today will be decent, but not great.


----------



## JamieMcC

Pair of 5998's for £500 am I missing something or is this just a plain crazy price?  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/matched-pair-JAN-CAHG-5998-Strong-tube-Rohre-Valvola-421A-Dual-Power-Triode-NOS-/301131793590?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Elektronenr%C3%B6hren_Valves&hash=item461cda84b6


----------



## G600

Yup, another ****** thinking he has gold bars on hand...
 Wish him the best.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Some ask 250 for a pair of RCA. Just ignore it.


----------



## syphen606

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to this stuff.. I've tried to find out the make but so far have come up empty handed. At first I thought maybe Sylvania, then maybe Philips..  But I'm not sure. 
  
 Does anyone here recognize this tube? The second pic shows a very very faint 6080 WB but beyond that, there is no other markings:


----------



## Dubstep Girl

looks like a raytheon 6080wb.


----------



## syphen606

I thought that too, but all of the pics of Raytheon 6080WB that I could find show both of the upper circular plates as having little standoffs around the circumference.. Whereas this tube only has them on the lower of the upper plates.


----------



## MJS242

syphen606 said:


> I thought that too, but all of the pics of Raytheon 6080WB that I could find show both of the upper circular plates as having little standoffs around the circumference.. Whereas this tube only has them on the lower of the upper plates.


 
  
 Looks like a Sylvania to me


----------



## MJS242

jamiemcc said:


> Pair of 5998's for £500 am I missing something or is this just a plain crazy price?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/matched-pair-JAN-CAHG-5998-Strong-tube-Rohre-Valvola-421A-Dual-Power-Triode-NOS-/301131793590?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Elektronenr%C3%B6hren_Valves&hash=item461cda84b6


 
  
 90% of the time I'm searching ebay for tubes I'm strictly looking at auctions and ignoring the buy it now stuff because of garbage like this.


----------



## spacequeen7

I was little disappointed at first when I tried Bendix red bank on Crack ,no matter what driver tube I was rolling the sound wasn't what I was expecting ..until I tried this tube on DV336SE and paired with another new acquisition via ebay ,all I have to say this combo can easily compete with BH Crack (5998+E80CC Amperex)  (used HD650 with both amps)..just wow !


----------



## Xenophon

Anyone familiar with this tube?  It's labeled as 'CSF' brand, 6080S, beneath that is a 'H'.  All I could find was that it was apparently produced by a (subsidiary of) Thalesgroup, a large French aerospace/defence conglomerate.  And a very tenuous link to Thomson tubes (also French).  Wonder about the 'S' designation, maybe some indication that they were approved for military use.  Sitting in a hotel room now so can't audition them but  curious, was very positively impressed by the sound of some NOS 1965 produced CIFTE 6080WA's which I tried (apparently CIFTE/Mazda).  Got them dirt cheap and very impressed with the sound, nice, detailed, good spacing between instruments and quite neutral.


 


Edit: found some more info on the tube, it was made by the Compagnie Générale de télégraphie sans fil in France, designed to meet mil. Standards ( resistance to at least 5 shocks of 450 G, 2000 1-minute interval on-off cycles, vibration etc). Curious to hear it.


----------



## JamieMcC

Another familiar tube looks like a rebranded Svetlana asking US $64.95 Ouch! compared with the $10 (or less) a tube for Svetlana original.


----------



## Skylab

That's for sure the Russian tube, although it may well have been legitimately rebranded by Mullard. Nonetheless it's a rip off for the price!


----------



## Carlitos

how much are the chatham 6080wb graphite columns?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Chatham? you mean bendix or tung sol I suppose


----------



## Carlitos

i guess.... tube label is "JAN-CAHG-6080WB" MADE IN USA CHATHAM ELECTRONICS, and they are pretty heavy....how much are they?


----------



## hifimanrookie

ultrainferno said:


> Chatham? you mean bendix or tung sol I suppose



My bendix 6080wb graphite plates was also branded as chatham..so i am guessing they made a series or rebranded a series of bendix into chatham..but they a bit higher then the original bendix..larger if u can say that..but they sound absolutely wonderful..i preferred those tubes over my 5998's tungsols.
And those are just as expensive as the bendix branded tubes...as they are sold as bendix tubes.


----------



## G600

carlitos said:


> i guess.... tube label is "JAN-CAHG-6080WB" MADE IN USA CHATHAM ELECTRONICS, and they are pretty heavy....how much are they?


 
 They can vary from 30-40$ to 150$ a piece, and maybe more...
 However if you can find some at 50$ consider it a good deal, FWIW


----------



## JamieMcC

I have a feeling Chatham was either a subsidiary or was brought out by Tung-sol at some point I have also read that all the 6080wb graphite plate tubes were Bendix made and rebranded by the above and sometimes its the other way round so not sure for certain myself. They are interesting high quality tubes for sure.
  
 The ones I have tried tend to make a few strange noises initially when heating up I am not sure if this was because they were genuine nos or not as this has improved considerably with use or just a feature of the graphite plates. I always wait a few minutes now after turning on before plugging my phones in because it scared the life out of me the first time I heard them arc. Once up to temperature they work perfectly.


----------



## hifimanrookie

jamiemcc said:


> I have a feeling Chatham was either a subsidiary or was brought out by Tung-sol at some point I have also read that all the 6080wb graphite plate tubes were Bendix made and rebranded by the above and sometimes its the other way round so not sure for certain myself. They are interesting high quality tubes for sure.
> 
> The ones I have tried tend to make a few strange noises initially when heating up I am not sure if this was because they were genuine nos or not as this has improved considerably with use or just a feature of the graphite plates. I always wait a few minutes now after turning on before plugging my phones in because it scared the life out of me the first time I heard them arc. Once up to temperature they work perfectly.


when heating up my bendix/chatham did a crackling sound like a racing engine does when u race it hard..i loved that cracking sound..same thing when the rubes where cooling down...loved it.

But no noise in the headphone in the headphone..totally silent! Mine were also NOS and matched pair.


----------



## Carlitos

thank you guys for all the info and btw, I don't get why these chathams/bendix or wherever are expensive...they sound barely different from the chinesse tubes


----------



## Xenophon

carlitos said:


> thank you guys for all the info and btw, I don't get why these chathams/bendix or wherever are expensive...they sound barely different from the chinesse tubes


 
 I wonder if you have the genuine article then.  I own a pair of Hytron branded 6080WB graphite column tubes and sound wise these come just after my 5998, really different from the rest of the 6080* tubes I own, not subtle at all.  Only problem is that they're very hard to find, I got lucky and paid 100 EUR/pair but though I've been looking around for a second pair, no luck in finding them at any price lately.


----------



## hifimanrookie

xenophon said:


> I wonder if you have the genuine article then.  I own a pair of Hytron branded 6080WB graphite column tubes and sound wise these come just after my 5998, really different from the rest of the 6080* tubes I own, not subtle at all.  Only problem is that they're very hard to find, I got lucky and paid 100 EUR/pair but though I've been looking around for a second pair, no luck in finding them at any price lately.



I agree with u..my pair of 6080wb sounded close to the 5998.. But are very hard to get.. And expensive! For me the 6080wb got most of the playing time paired with the TS sj7gt mesh plates..a pair in heaven! Especially with the he500 i had with the opengrill mod and the modulor pads...so i sold the 5998's but kept the rca 5693 red hots..there is something special about those affordable tubes paired with a 6080wb or 5998!


----------



## Carlitos




----------



## Carlitos




----------



## JamieMcC




----------



## JamieMcC

Guy have a look here these look like the Chatham 6as7g none look to have the domino plates and some look to be branded as 5998! They are all being sold as 5998's what do you think?


----------



## Skylab

They look like nice 6AS7Gs


----------



## Xenophon

For those unsure of where to spend some cash on:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310939825074?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
  
 WE 421A.
  
 BTW:  Does anyone know if a 608*2* tube might work in a DV 337?  Major difference with the 6080 as far as I see is the higher heater voltage.


----------



## hifimanrookie

xenophon said:


> For those unsure of where to spend some cash on:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310939825074?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
> 
> ...



If i still had my 337 i would jump on that..but that price is a bit weird...those tubes normall go for at least 200usd..hope they are the real thing!


----------



## punit

hifimanrookie said:


> If i still had my 337 i would jump on that..but that price is a bit weird...those tubes normall go for at least 200usd..hope they are the real thing!


 

 its an auction in progress, typically the price will go upto $250-350 by end of bidding, if someone gets a pair for 200 that's a very very good price.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

beautiful  tubes, though when i had them, i found them to be pretty much identical to 5998. i couldn't A/B them and find any real difference.


----------



## Xenophon

I just won these, think it was a good deal, any thoughts?
  
 http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/LOT-3-6080-WB-TUNG-SOL-MATCHED-SET-DATES-VINTAGE-TUBE-RADIO-AMP-AUDIO-HAM-TV7-/141262836179?&autorefresh=true


----------



## GrindingThud

Excellent deal and great tubes! I was bidding on them as well. 



xenophon said:


> I just won these, think it was a good deal, any thoughts?
> 
> http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/LOT-3-6080-WB-TUNG-SOL-MATCHED-SET-DATES-VINTAGE-TUBE-RADIO-AMP-AUDIO-HAM-TV7-/141262836179?&autorefresh=true


----------



## spacequeen7

xenophon said:


> I just won these, think it was a good deal, any thoughts?
> 
> http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/LOT-3-6080-WB-TUNG-SOL-MATCHED-SET-DATES-VINTAGE-TUBE-RADIO-AMP-AUDIO-HAM-TV7-/141262836179?&autorefresh=true


 

 http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3453.0


----------



## Xenophon

I like the graphite 6080WB's.  Already own 2 'Hytron' rebrands and 6080-wise they're my preferred tubes.  Generally I prefer 6AS7G for the sound, with the 5998 at the top of my list (the GEC's are just too expensive), then follow quite some other tubes and then the first 6080.  Even the Svetlana's score better than the average 6080.  But the one exception are these graphite column Hytrons, those I'd rank just behind the 5998.  Just imo of course and keep in mind I'm a noob in tubes.  Had been on the lookout for some more graphite but they're hard to find and the Bendix branded ones fetch extreme prices.
  
 Looking forward to adding these to the collection.
  
 If anyone's still looking, there are some 421's being auctioned.  Good looking tubes but I suspect they'll fetch a pretty penny and afaik they're basically the same as a 5998.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Great buy!


----------



## ctrlshift

jamiemcc said:


> Guy have a look here these look like the Chatham 6as7g none look to have the domino plates and some look to be branded as 5998! They are all being sold as 5998's what do you think?


 
 These went for $530 US... I thought it would go a lot higher. Whoever won it could prob make a nice profit selling them in pairs
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/281319226103?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Xenophon

See above:  they're not 5998's and the seller knew so imo.  I thought it fishy because he didn't show a closeup of the plates (far as I know all TS 5998 have the 'domino' plate structure.  So I sent a mail and asked, fort back a fuzzy response about it being some kind of military batch 5998-->sounded like BS to me.  Ultra here thinks the 5998 and TS designation have been added later and he's forgotten more about these tubes than most here know about 'em.  And I don't have them on my screen right now but there was something off with the date codes (number starting wit 322, the last digit indicates the shift number and I recall seeing something was off there).
  
 If a deal looks too good to be true...I pity the poor guy who purchased them.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

yeah definitely not 5998s...


----------



## Ultrainferno

Those were expensive 6AS7Gs hahaha. Good luck reselling those with a profit


----------



## MJS242

rosgr63 said:


> Lieven has found another variant, so here is the updated Bendix 6080WB list:
> 
> 1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods.
> 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods
> ...


 
  
 Any idea which these are? The plates don't seem graphite to me and appear different than the other variants I've seen.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I have a pair of these with Raytheon branding. They really sound different from the bendix like tubes. I did not like the sound at all.
  
 http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
  
 Check out IIc


----------



## MJS242

ultrainferno said:


> I have a pair of these with Raytheon branding. They really sound different from the bendix like tubes. I did not like the sound at all.
> 
> http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
> 
> Check out IIc


 
  
 Into the collectible pile it goes I guess... I'm assuming the Raytheon's were originally manufactured by Bendix?


----------



## aldovan

The chinese 6N5P sound nice ? Anyone have experience with this tube ? Actually I use a GE 6080 in my amplifier and this tube is weak.
 I am looking for a cheap alternative for replace it. A chinese seller offers me the 6N5P per U$3 each, a cup of coffee here in Brazil...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Thanks
  
 Aldovan


----------



## doco

aldovan said:


> The chinese 6N5P sound nice ? Anyone have experience with this tube ? Actually I use a GE 6080 in my amplifier and this tube is weak.
> I am looking for a cheap alternative for replace it. A chinese seller offers me the 6N5P per U$3 each, a cup of coffee here in Brazil...
> 
> 
> ...


 
  cheap alternatives would be RCA 6AS7 and chatham 6as7. by cheap i mean under $15 to $30 shipped.


----------



## aldovan

Yes, I getting some RCA 6SA7G and Tungsol 5998 from USA, too.( I paid U$20 in each used 5998)
 But Anyone know the sound of this Chinese 6N5P ?
  
 Aldovan


----------



## Skylab

Personally I think the Chinese 6N5P is the worst sounding 6AS7 equivalent and by a wide margin. The Russian 6H13C is much better sounding and just as cheap.


----------



## aldovan

Ok, them U$3 each is a fortune !


----------



## aldovan

skylab said:


> Personally I think the Chinese 6N5P is the worst sounding 6AS7 equivalent and by a wide margin. The Russian 6H13C is much better sounding and just as cheap.




What chineses brands of 6N5P you know ? Shuguang do not is the unique chinese brand. Shuguang is the more cheap and available.And have the worst quality.


----------



## Xenophon

aldovan said:


> What chineses brands of 6N5P you know ?* Shuguang do not is the unique chinese brand. Shuguang is the more cheap and available.And have the worst quality.*


 
 Then do enlighten us if you know them.  I don't like the Shuguang sound either and there are many more attractively priced options available (certainly considering shipping) so I guess the general consensus here is, why bother?  But if you know some good ones let's hear it, always curious.
  
 About the Svetlana 6H13C, I know it gets a lot of flac here but have to confess I don't think it's bad at all, sure beats some more expensive 6080's to my ears.


----------



## aldovan

Why the peoples un the group make a comparation between the 5998 and 6080 ?
 This do not are the same tubes. Do not is correct this comparation, the 5998 have biggest gain and transcondutance, is very different.
 And I do not underestand because use a power tube in a phone amplifier...you can put 3W in a speaker with a 6080 and a phone do not need more them 50mW....really I do not underestand...for a phone amplifier a 12B4 or 6S19P is ok.


----------



## Xenophon

aldovan said:


> Why the peoples un the group make a comparation between the 5998 and 6080 ?
> This do not are the same tubes. Do not is correct this comparation, the 5998 have biggest gain and transcondutance, is very different.
> And I do not underestand because use a power tube in a phone amplifier...you can put 3W in a speaker with a 6080 and a phone do not need more them 50mW....really I do not underestand...for a phone amplifier a 12B4 or 6S19P is ok.


 
 If it were the same tubes there'd obviously be nothing to compare.....look,read this thread is my advice.  I'm a newbie with tube gear but you'll see that most people who post here have been around and know what they're talking about.  People use them because a) they're available and b) they've proven to work quite well and some sound good.  Why do people buy and ride motorcycles that can top 300 km/u while the max speed is much lower and a scooter will also get you there?  Choice and the freedom to spend your money as you see fit.  
  
 I think transcendent sound builds amps based on the tubes you mention.  Of course, they put in a dozen or so so I hope that whoever purchases them does't live in a tropical clime.  As to the 'but you only need so much power to drive a headphone':
  

 Not gonna go there.....waste of time....see the O2 thread.


----------



## aldovan

I use the 6080 in my home amplifier.
Onde tube in each channel only and about 3W, thus is ok for listen in all house. The transcedent use the OTL technology...many tubes and high cost for a horrible sound...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

If you want a cheap 6AS7Gs look at the Russian 5 and 13s rather than the chinese example quoted (bottom of my list) or for 6080s then there are lot's of cheap decent quality US made examples.


----------



## aldovan

Yes,my GE 6080 sound fine as my Shuguang 2A3C tube.


----------



## skeptic

aldovan said:


> Why the peoples un the group make a comparation between the 5998 and 6080 ?
> This do not are the same tubes. Do not is correct this comparation, the 5998 have biggest gain and transcondutance, is very different.
> And I do not underestand because use a power tube in a phone amplifier...you can put 3W in a speaker with a 6080 and a phone do not need more them 50mW....really I do not underestand...for a phone amplifier a 12B4 or 6S19P is ok.


 
  
 Hey aldovan - yours is a good question.  The answer is that designers are using these power tubes as "cathode followers" in OTL headamps (pulling the signal off the cathode rather than the anode).  This is a nifty trick that lowers the output impedance enough to run high ohm phones without the need to include output transformers in the circuit.
  
 Except for Zana Deuxs, pretty much all of the OTL's discussed on head-fi (bottlehead crack, woo2, woo 3, darkvoice/lafigaro amps, singlepowers, etc.), use this same tube family to accomplish this.  See:  http://www.hificollective.co.uk/pdf/otl_head.pdf 
  
 5998's and 7236's do indeed have higher transconductance (and gain) than 6080's and 6as7(g)'s and consequently further reduce the output impedance in cathode follower headamps.  Most, if not all, of the above headamps are compatible with these closely related tubes even though they do have different specs.  I also sometimes run a 7802 in my crack which is even higher transconductance, but I can't speak as to whether or not that works in the other common OTL's.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Hi,
    How do you fix a wobbly/loose tube base?Thanks!


----------



## GrindingThud

Clear nail polish


i luvmusic 2 said:


> Hi,
> How do you fix a wobbly/loose tube base?Thanks!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

grindingthud said:


> Clear nail polish


 
 I will try that Thank You!


----------



## punit

grindingthud said:


> Clear nail polish


 

 when the tube becomes burning hot won't that emit a smell ?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Some tubes do that even without nail polish. I never noticed extra smell from fixing a tube


----------



## GrindingThud

Only for a short period on the first use. 



punit said:


> when the tube becomes burning hot won't that emit a smell ?


----------



## G600

Gents, any feedback on Thomson/CSF 6080 ?


----------



## Ultrainferno

I love the sound, very clear and detailed with good bass. But they run quite warm


----------



## G600

Thanks.
 I have also noticed those straight bottle + metal base run hot.


----------



## Xenophon

g600 said:


> Gents, any feedback on Thomson/CSF 6080 ?


 
 I don't have them here (the curse of living in 2 locations) but I own both.  The Thomsons I can't say anything about except that I might have been ripped on that purchase as both tubes sound quiet to the point of being virtually inaudible on my 337 with volume maxed out.  The strange thing is that it's definitely BOTH tubes exhibiting this behaviour.  Guess they're just defective although they do look NOS and I took care to clean the pins etc.  So no help there I'm afraid.
  
 The CSF 6080S (see p. 75 for a couple of bad pics I snapped) sounds like a good quality, refined 6080 to me.  I don't have my notes but recall a detailed sound, quite pleasing.  Not the same level as the graphite 6080WB's though but certainly not bad.  Let me put it this way:  I generally prefer 6AS7G over 6080 tubes but as far as the latter go the CSF is certainly not bad and worth getting if the price is normal.


----------



## G600

Thank you for your addition !
 This is an odd bug you're experiencing with Thomsons...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I  fixed some of my wobbly tube with clear nail polish and 50/50 mixture of water and carpenter's glue both works well .THANKS GUYS!


----------



## DutchGFX

Any current production tubes? I'm beggining my STEM project and I'm designing an amp with switchable output tubes, and I know for OTL operation, the 6AS7G has a low Zout as a cathode follower, but I don't want to use it if I can't get any current production tubes.

PS. I also use 6080's in my Crack and another OTL I am about to build


----------



## Skylab

There are no current production 6AS7 type tubes. But you can buy literally HUNDREDS of the vintage Russian equivalents. If lack of supply is a concern, I wouldn't worry.


----------



## DutchGFX

Thanks, interesting though considering their popularity in OTL's that noone has decided to produce new tubes.


----------



## Xenophon

dutchgfx said:


> Thanks, interesting though considering their popularity in OTL's that noone has decided to produce new tubes.


 
 Cost, plain and simple.  Cost of the tooling but especially the cost of labour as I don't think you could automate the process.  And the fact that making/doping the plates etc requires the use of some seriously hazardous/environmentally unfriendly chemicals.  Couple that to an altogether limited market for 6AS7(G)/6080 and the fact that there are still NOS versions available with all the associated nostalgia and premium those will command even if the newly produced ones are objectively better.
  
 Apparently it's worth it for the more expensive/rare tubes such as the 300B if you can produce them in a low wage country.  The present owners of the Tung Sol brand currently even produce 6SN7 I believe....but it's a volume thing with that tube.  You need low production cost and either high margin and/or high volumes and the tubes we're talking about don't seem to offer that.


----------



## MJS242

xenophon said:


> Cost, plain and simple.  Cost of the tooling but especially the cost of labour as I don't think you could automate the process.  And the fact that making/doping the plates etc requires the use of some seriously hazardous/environmentally unfriendly chemicals.  Couple that to an altogether limited market for 6AS7(G)/6080 and the fact that there are still NOS versions available with all the associated nostalgia and premium those will command even if the newly produced ones are objectively better.
> 
> Apparently it's worth it for the more expensive/rare tubes such as the 300B if you can produce them in a low wage country.  The present owners of the Tung Sol brand currently even produce 6SN7 I believe....but it's a volume thing with that tube.  You need low production cost and either high margin and/or high volumes and the tubes we're talking about don't seem to offer that.


 
  
 I live about a mile away from the old bendix/honeywell factory that was used to make the bendix red bank tubes (specifically the over-engineered 6080WB tubes) and even in the late 1990's they were still dealing the contamination left over by that factory.  Apparently they were the largest commercial polluter in the area.


----------



## Ultrainferno

mjs242 said:


> I live about a mile away from the old bendix/honeywell factory that was used to make the bendix red bank tubes (specifically the over-engineered 6080WB tubes) and even in the late 1990's they were still dealing the contamination left over by that factory.  Apparently they were the largest commercial polluter in the area.


 
  
 It was all worth it


----------



## Skylab

xenophon said:


> Cost, plain and simple.  Cost of the tooling but especially the cost of labour as I don't think you could automate the process.  And the fact that making/doping the plates etc requires the use of some seriously hazardous/environmentally unfriendly chemicals.  Couple that to an altogether limited market for 6AS7(G)/6080 and the fact that there are still NOS versions available with all the associated nostalgia and premium those will command even if the newly produced ones are objectively better.
> 
> Apparently it's worth it for the more expensive/rare tubes such as the 300B if you can produce them in a low wage country.  The present owners of the Tung Sol brand currently even produce 6SN7 I believe....but it's a volume thing with that tube.  You need low production cost and either high margin and/or high volumes and the tubes we're talking about don't seem to offer that.




Right. No one is going to tool up to make new versions of a tube where you can buy a box of 25 NOS Svetlanas for $250 easily. I've seen crates of 100 for under $500 before.


----------



## Xcalibur255

I think a better question is if you were going to tool up to make a tube that isn't being made today, why would you do it to make a 70 year old design as-is?  The 6080 family isn't used because it is the best sounding tube, but rather because it is (almost) the only family of tubes with the impedance to get the job done without OPTs. 
  
 Emission Labs created an entirely new family of directly heated triodes (the 20/30A/30B) using modern design and research techniques.  If demand for OTL style amplifiers truly continued to grow then a call to actually engineer and design a new tube that is an improvement over the 6080 family is the thing to call for putting into modern production. 
  
 Of course there is inherent risk.  It's likely going to be made by a single company, and if that company fails you cannot get tubes for your amp anymore.  This is the reason why the EML 30 didn't make its way into my DHT amp.  It would have sounded amazing, but there is no guarantee EML is around for the long haul and the idea of hoarding tubes that cost $600 a pair "just in case" is more than a little out there.


----------



## DutchGFX

Yeah that would be quite brutal if you couldn't use an amp because EML went out of business. I was going to use the 20A for my STEM amp since the school pays for all the stuff I need lol. I'm gonna end up using 6SN7 and 300B with the 6080 follower though. It would have been cool to use the EML proprietary tubes but 300B has so many current production models from $100-$500 so there are a lot of good options.

Side note, any of you ever used Golden Dragon Tubes from PMComponents? They seem to have a good selection of current production input tubes


----------



## Xenophon

dutchgfx said:


> Yeah that would be quite brutal if you couldn't use an amp because EML went out of business. I was going to use the 20A for my STEM amp since the school pays for all the stuff I need lol. I'm gonna end up using 6SN7 and 300B with the 6080 follower though. It would have been cool to use the EML proprietary tubes but 300B has so many current production models from $100-$500 so there are a lot of good options.
> 
> Side note, any of you ever used Golden Dragon Tubes from PMComponents? They seem to have a good selection of current production input tubes


 
 I'm going out on a limb here but check out that 6SN7 driver / 300B combo, iirc some heavy hitters at diyaudio have presented arguments as to why that wasn't a glorious combo and it resulted in a sound that was not the best the 300B was capable of.  Problem is I don't recall the specific amp topology they were discussing.  If I happen to stumble over it I'll post the link, read what I posted fwiw and in the knowledge that I'm no expert.


----------



## 2359glenn

xenophon said:


> I'm going out on a limb here but check out that 6SN7 driver / 300B combo, iirc some heavy hitters at diyaudio have presented arguments as to why that wasn't a glorious combo and it resulted in a sound that was not the best the 300B was capable of.  Problem is I don't recall the specific amp topology they were discussing.  If I happen to stumble over it I'll post the link, read what I posted fwiw and in the knowledge that I'm no expert.


 

 A 6SN7 cannot properly drive the miller capacitance of the grid of a 300B.
 I know there is allot of 300B amps out there that use a 6SN7 driver. And that is
 because that is what people want and company's produce what people want.
 I use a #10 or a C3g to drive 300Bs to get best sound.


----------



## Ultrainferno

2359glenn said:


> A 6SN7 cannot properly drive the miller capacitance of the grid of a 300B.
> I know there is allot of 300B amps out there that use a 6SN7 driver. And that is
> because that is what people want and company's produce what people want.
> I use a #10 or a C3g to drive 300Bs to get best sound.


 
  
 and boy does it sound great!


----------



## DutchGFX

Thanks for the info! How bout the 2A3 from a 6SN7? Or a 6922? I know the 300B and 2A3 can both drive the 6080 so that's not an issue since the 300B will just be used for extra voltage gain.

The amp is going to have 12AU7, 6922, and 6SN7 switchable tubes (just changing cathode and plate resistors)


----------



## punit

I broke the guide pin of my GEC 6080 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . Can it still be used or should I scrap it ?


----------



## G600

It's everything but a problem. Just take care to fit it the right way.


----------



## punit

g600 said:


> It's everything but a problem. Just take care to fit it the right way.


 

 how do I know which is the right way ? will it harm the amp if I fit it the wrong way while trying ?


----------



## G600

Look at the broken section, you have an alignment "tit", which has to match the socket.


----------



## punit

By broken off section do you mean the broken pin ? well that has actually broken in to few pieces. Will it harm the amp if I plug it in the wrong way, If not I can do some trial & error plug ins.


----------



## DutchGFX

Yeah if u put the tube in the wrong orientation you can break the tube or damage the amp. Just make sure u align everything properly


----------



## punit

Not going to take a chance then, will scrap it.


----------



## G600




----------



## G600

Look at the picture, you have the broken section slice.
 You can see the pin's guide. Make it match to your amp's socket, it's just a child play.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Make a mark on the side of the tube base aligned with the  broken Tab then each time you insert that tube just aligned the mark on the socket slot.Sorry for stealing your photo.


----------



## JamieMcC

Those GEC 6080's are nice sounding tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I prefer them and the Mullard 6080 over the more expensive Bendix graphite plates.
  
 Something I have noticed is that a few of my Mullard 6080's are flashers but not all.


----------



## gibosi

punit said:


> Not going to take a chance then, will scrap it.


 
  
 If you really think you should scrap it, send it to me!  
  
 Or better yet, put it on eBay.... Even with a broken guide pin, there are any number of people, such as myself, who would be happy to bid on it.
  
 But really, keep it. As i luvmusic 2 points out, instead of aligning it by feel, you now need to align it by sight. Put a dot of fingernail polish on the side of the tube indicating the orientation of the guide pin and a corresponding dot on the socket. And then it is simple matter to line up the dots. 
  
 Cheers


----------



## Xenophon

+1 on the marking...except if you know that you're easily distracted, then I wouldn't  take the risk because at best you'd fry the tube, at worst it could take a section of the amp/your headphones/speakers with it.  No tube's worth taking that kind of risk.


----------



## gibosi

It may not be all that dangerous, but someone with more knowledge and experience then I should weigh in here...  
  
 My experience is with drivers, the ECC40, a rimlock 8-pin all-glass miniature, which Philips introduced to replace the 6SNS7, and the 2C51, a 9-pin all-glass miniature. As the pins are equidistant on the ECC40, similar to the 6SN7, it is necessary to align it to the adapter by lining up a little bump in the side of tube. On more than one occasion I have inserted it wrong. No sound, but nothing bad. Reinserting correctly, and it's fine. The adapter for the 2C51 has one of the pins cut off. And again, I have inserted it wrong more than once. And again, nothing bad.
  
 Oh, I should add that I am using a hybrid, so no power tubes, and therefore, my experience may or may not be useful in this case....


----------



## Nic Rhodes

As other have said 6080 with missing pin is still very desirable, especially if a GEC! I use a RCA I have with missing pin in a 'Leak amp' and has been going 20 years now  Just aling on the notch and enjoy the GEC.


----------



## punit

Than you all for the feedback. My only fear is that I tube roll a lot , so just have the fear that during my daily plugging & unplugging of tubes if  I plug in the GEC incorrectly aligned then I may do permanent damage to my amp or HP.
  
 Have any of you plugged in a power tube incorrectly aligned & did your amp / HP live to tell the tale ?


----------



## Xenophon

Impossible to accurately predict what will happen, depends too much on the type of tube and the amp.  Best case:  nothing.  Realistically:  the heater filament of the 6080 works on 6.3 V and is connected via pins 7 and 8 I believe.  The tube itself operates at about 135V so if you'd put that on the heater (if possible, you'd have to take a detailed look at the wiring) it would result in an instant kill but you'd have to look at it in detail to know exactly what/if anything is likely to happen with the amp and the rest of the chain.  The 6080 is a relatively 'benign' case, some tubes run at 450, 500.....up to 900 V or more.  It's not a good idea to operate equipment of which you know one of the safety factors has been rendered inoperable, they're there for a reason.


----------



## JamieMcC

If you are really worried about accidently inserting it wrongly how about picking up a cheap tube saver you would only need to insert the tube once into it and from then on you will be using the tube savers guide.


----------



## punit

Great Idea Jamie, Thanks. A Head-Fi member who is an expert in building tube amps has offered to install a new guide pin & I shall be sending the tube to him.


----------



## Xcalibur255

You only have to determine where the index tab on the missing guide pin was once.  When you're sure you have it right use a red sharpie to draw an index mark on the base so it's easier to insert correctly from then on.


----------



## MJS242

Does anyone know what the deal is with lopsided tubes? I get the minor differences, but some seem pretty extreme.  Wondering if something like this is still considered normal.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Hi,
   anybody familiar with these Brand/make? please refer to the pictures below.Thank You!


----------



## Neogeo333

They look like rebrand of Chatham.  Good tubes.


----------



## Skylab

Yup, sure looks like Tung-Sol/Chatham to me.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

neogeo333 said:


> They look like rebrand of Chatham.  Good tubes.


 
  
  


skylab said:


> Yup, sure looks like Tung-Sol/Chatham to me.


 
 Thank You!But they are sold i waited too long.....


----------



## MoatsArt

I recently purchased a pair of GEC 6AS7G curved brown base tubes from a trustworthy eBay seller. To my joy they arrived yesterday. 

Unfortunately one of them is behaving a little peculiarly. Shortly after turning on (about thirty seconds) it emits a loud crackling sound through my headphones, which I haven't put on by this stage. A couple of minutes later it crackles again (very loud) and the left channel drops out. 

Can anyone suggest the reason for this? I would only return it as a last resort as I dearly love the sound of this tube when it is working,


----------



## JamieMcC

moatsart said:


> I recently purchased a pair of GEC 6AS7G curved brown base tubes from a trustworthy eBay seller. To my joy they arrived yesterday.
> 
> Unfortunately one of them is behaving a little peculiarly. Shortly after turning on (about thirty seconds) it emits a loud crackling sound through my headphones, which I haven't put on by this stage. A couple of minutes later it crackles again (very loud) and the left channel drops out.
> 
> Can anyone suggest the reason for this? I would only return it as a last resort as I dearly love the sound of this tube when it is working,


 
  
 Nathan have you tried it with a different input tube I know you run the E80cc does it behave the same with the 12au7? The only tubes I have experienced something similar with are the Bendix 6080 graphite plates and they only did it a few times on start up soon after shipping. Once I had put a few hours on them they settled down and the problem went away.
  
 I use a old set of cheap old phones for any initial testing be it new tubes, burning in caps or after making circuit mods.


----------



## gibosi

moatsart said:


> I recently purchased a pair of GEC 6AS7G curved brown base tubes from a trustworthy eBay seller. To my joy they arrived yesterday.
> 
> Unfortunately one of them is behaving a little peculiarly. Shortly after turning on (about thirty seconds) it emits a loud crackling sound through my headphones, which I haven't put on by this stage. A couple of minutes later it crackles again (very loud) and the left channel drops out.
> 
> Can anyone suggest the reason for this? I would only return it as a last resort as I dearly love the sound of this tube when it is working,


 
  
 Sounds defective to me. Cold, the tube seems to work, but as it heats up to operating temperature, internal metal parts expand, something inside shifts position slightly and the left channel drops out. These are wonderful tubes and you have my condolences...


----------



## Skylab

One other suggestion...with the amp off and cool of course, try re-seating the tube. The problem you describe can sometimes be due to a poor contact in the tube socket. Make sure that you see both filaments glowing. Then as others have suggested, with the volume all the way down and without valuable headphones connected, let it run for a good while.

If after all that it doesn't seem to be working, do contact the seller, who I happen to know has a 100% customer satisfaction policy


----------



## Xenophon

If the seller offered a warranty then I'd inform him and return it as soon as my feet could scurry to the post office.  Bummer for both parties involved of course but given the price these typically sell for you have the right to expect a functioning tube if it was sold as such.  Assuming the amp and cans work fine with any other tubes of the same basic construction I guess that thermal expansion makes something shift and lose contact, this clearly goes beyond 'pinging' tubes during warmup.  Good tip to check the heaters.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Hi,
   Anyone familiar with this site Westubes.com?Thanks!


----------



## Xenophon

Just a short side note to share my excitement about one of the new tube types  I'm currently testing in my DV 337 amp:  a pair of Sylvania 7236 power tubes.  To my ears these sound extraordinarily good.  I'll definitely do a more detailed comparison later on but some impressions while listening to classical on the 337 and paired with TS 6SJ7 mesh plate drivers:  
  
 - Extraordinarily clear and crisp sounding, much clearer than any 6080 and 6AS7(G) I've heard.
 - Very detailed
 - Deep soundstage
 - Dead silent, no microphonics at all on this NOS pair, and this from the first moment.
  
 I'd compare them to my TS 5998 but a bit less 'wide' in soundstage, though deeper and more detailed.  Bass is good, not very pronounced (caution:  the type of music I'm listening to right now is not bet for bass let alone bass punch evaluation), less 'boomy' than the TS 5998.
  
 These are not warm sounding tubes, rather more SS like to my ears but very, very detailed and really nice with orchestral music and brass (listening to some trumpet concertos by Purcell, extraordinary). 
  
 You don't see these too often online but even at this stage I'd say, grab a pair if you encounter them.  Best of all, I paid less than half than the price for 5998.
  
 As always, everything 'IMO' and based on my taste.


----------



## MoatsArt

Thanks for the observations. Tung Sol 7236 is one of my favourite 6AS7G "swap ins". Tight and fast bass, great resolution. Be interested in comparing with Sylvania 7236.

Can you describe the plate structure? Is it like an RCA 6AS7G in a straight bottle, or a light grey box structure? The latter is the mark of Tung Sol manufacture, but I have seen them labelled by Sylvania, even as 5998A.


----------



## hodgjy

moatsart said:


> Thanks for the observations. Tung Sol 7236 is one of my favourite 6AS7G "swap ins". Tight and fast bass, great resolution. Be interested in comparing with Sylvania 7236.
> 
> Can you describe the plate structure? Is it like an RCA 6AS7G in a straight bottle, or a light grey box structure? The latter is the mark of Tung Sol manufacture, but I have seen them labelled by Sylvania, even as 5998A.


 
  
 The Sylvania 7236 has a flat plate structure like a 6AS7G.  It sounds pretty good, but it's nowhere near as good as the TS7236.


----------



## Xenophon

Here's a quick pic of the Sylvania 7236 playing in my amp, don't know if it helps you for the structure.  Apologies for quality but hey, it's 5:30 AM here 
  

 Once again, I haven't heard the TS version but these do sound very, very nice if you like a tight, clear, controlled and not overly warm sound that most would term more ss than tubey.  Have just been rolling them to compare with RCA 6AS7G and for my taste the 7236 play in a different and far superior league when listening to classical.  Have BWV 1068 on (Bach's suite Nr. 3  in D for orchestra) and it's magic.  But remember my caveats about bass (haven't tested them with it yet) and the fact that I'm really a fence-sitter and prefer a warm SS sound or a cool-neutral sounding tube amp, not the favoured by many 'lush' or 'liquid' / warm tube sound.  Will do a detailed comparison with the TS 5998 later, wouldn't surprise me if these came out on top for me.


----------



## MoatsArt

Awesome!

Looks great and sounds like it sounds even better.

Give yourself a treat one day and pick up a pair of Tung Sol 7236 tubes (if you can find them).


----------



## Dubstep Girl

I preferred Sylvania to Tung Sol 7236 because I found the TS 7236 too warm and thick, i preferred the slightly more SS like sylvania 7236, but i would still take tung sol 5998 over both of them any day. ts 7236 is a great tube though.


----------



## MoatsArt

That's the beauty of tube rolling. Each can season the music to their own taste.

In this context there is no good or bad, no right or wrong, just "I like", "I don't like" or "I prefer".


----------



## gibosi

Has anyone had a chance to compare the Sylvania 7236 and the Sylvania Gold Brand 6080? The 6080/6AS7 review in the BottleHead forum
  
 http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
  
 suggests they might be same. I don't have either of these and so I wonder if anyone has had a chance to closely compare the construction? And I wonder if they have the same sound?
  
 And of course, the real question, as the 6080's tend to be less expensive, should I get a pair? Or should I go for the 7236's?


----------



## hodgjy

gibosi said:


> Has anyone had a chance to compare the Sylvania 7236 and the Sylvania Gold Brand 6080? The 6080/6AS7 review in the BottleHead forum
> 
> http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
> 
> ...


 
 I've not heard a 6080 that I like.  They are cheap enough to experiment with, but there are much better tubes out there for a dollar more.  Even the GE 6AS7GA is a nice tube for $8.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

gibosi said:


> Has anyone had a chance to compare the Sylvania 7236 and the Sylvania Gold Brand 6080? The 6080/6AS7 review in the BottleHead forum
> 
> http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 not the same at all, the 7236 has more gain than the 6080.
  
  


hodgjy said:


> I've not heard a 6080 that I like.  They are cheap enough to experiment with, but there are much better tubes out there for a dollar more.  Even the GE 6AS7GA is a nice tube for $8.


 
  
 same, until i came across the GEC 6080...


----------



## gibosi

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, a pair of GEC 6080 would seem to be more than I can afford at the moment, but will definitely keep an eye out for a good deal on the Syl and/or TS 7236.


----------



## Xenophon

Just to echo that 7236 and 6080 are def. not the same and like others, there's only one 6080 that I really like and that's the 6080WB graphite.  All the rest (and I've a cupboard full of them) are 'ok' but nothing special though the GEC one is indeed one rung up.  Trouble with the 7236 is that it's not very easy to find although prices are still palatable and it's a good deal, bang for buck.  I got mine at vacuum tubes.net at 36 USD/piece.  Good transaction and recommended if you're in the states.  
  
 If they have to ship to Europe beware:  they use USPS which means that on the receiving end your national postal service will handle clearance and those crooks ate me alive on charges and taxes.   Their handling fee alone was 45 USD.....  Never again, courier all the way for me.


----------



## Oskari

xenophon said:


> If they have to ship to Europe beware:  they use USPS which means that on the receiving end your national postal service will handle clearance and those crooks ate me alive on charges and taxes.   Their handling fee alone was 45 USD.....  Never again, courier all the way for me.


 
  
 Europe is not a single country. I'd be much happier dealing with the post office rather than the greedy couriers here.


----------



## MIKELAP

oskari said:


> Europe is not a single country. I'd be much happier dealing with the post office rather than the greedy couriers here.


 
 Same here post office over courier always  everytime a courier was involved ment big bucks .its like on Ebay and  there shipping program never paid import fees when buying in U.S. before  but them they ask for duty WHAT A SCAM .I never buy from those seller who use the shipping program .


----------



## hifimanrookie

mikelap said:


> Same here post office over courier always  everytime a courier was involved ment big bucks .its like on Ebay and  there shipping program never paid import fees when buying in U.S. before  but them they ask for duty WHAT A SCAM .I never buy from those seller who use the shipping program .



Well..no matter what i choose i pay big bucks always when the total amount (incl postage) goes over around 80usd when i order from out of europe..form then on i almost pay 33% in taxes and customcosts over the amount! Customs here in the netherlands are thieves..i still cant believe how much i paid extra for my new amp that came from canada when it arrived at my doorstep! I still have nightmares about it..hehehehe as i rather would spend that amount on a good cause or something! At least i would have a good feeling about it then! What a robbery!! 
But i understand not all customs work same way..some are nicer and some a just scumbag thieves and even 'LOOSE' stuff sometimes (southern europe).. But northern europe have the nicest custom regulations i understand if u get stuff from oversees  but here.. Sometimes i dont even bother..as with the extra costs its even more costier sometimes.


----------



## MIKELAP

hifimanrookie said:


> Well..no matter what i choose i pay big bucks always when the total amount (incl postage) goes over around 80usd when i order from out of europe..form then on i almost pay 33% in taxes and customcosts over the amount! Customs here in the netherlands are thieves..i still cant believe how much i paid extra for my new amp that came from canada when it arrived at my doorstep! I still have nightmares about it..hehehehe as i rather would spend that amount on a good cause or something! At least i would have a good feeling about it then! What a robbery!!
> But i understand not all customs work same way..some are nicer and some a just scumbag thieves and even 'LOOSE' stuff sometimes (southern europe).. But northern europe have the nicest custom regulations i understand if u get stuff from oversees
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ya we never get a break .


----------



## Xenophon

You pay the same amount of customs duty all over Europe, that's why it's called a customs union.  Typically those rates are not extremely high, between about 4-12%.  Then comes VAT (=to US sales tax), which differs per country but is between 15 and 25% on the items we order.  Together this 'll put you a bit over 30% or my rule of thumb:  take the sales price of the item in the US but substitute USD with EUR and you'll be in the ballpark.
  
 Of course, the courier files the customs declaration on your behalf and asks a fee.  Fair enough.  You can select between couriers, some are cheaper than others.  Typically it'll cost between 12 and 20 EUR.  Unless (in Belgium) if it's sent via mail, then Belgian post processes it.  
  
 Trouble is, they're no longer public but are  a private, listed entity nowadays but still retain the monopoly on international packages sent via other postal services...and boy,  do the bast*rds exploit it....>30 EUR administrative fee.  And you don't have a choice as competition can't play.  Time for a letter to the European Commission I guess.  Anyway, when shipping to Belgium anything's better than post.


----------



## Skylab

In the US there is no incoming sales tax for private sales from overseas and duty is charged only on items over $1,000.


----------



## rosgr63

mikelap said:


> Same here post office over courier always  everytime a courier was involved ment big bucks .its like on Ebay and  there shipping program never paid import fees when buying in U.S. before  but them they ask for duty WHAT A SCAM .I never buy from those seller who use the shipping program .


 
  
 I could not agree more, I would never buy from a seller who uses the Shipping Program either.


----------



## Oskari

xenophon said:


> Trouble is, they're no longer public but are  a private, listed entity nowadays but still retain the monopoly on international packages sent via other postal services...and boy,  do the bast*rds exploit it....>30 EUR administrative fee.  And you don't have a choice as competition can't play.  Time for a letter to the European Commission I guess.  Anyway, when shipping to Belgium anything's better than post.


 
  
 You don't have the option to clear the items yourself thus avoiding the customs brokerage fee? In Finland this can be done online.


----------



## JamieMcC

I will never use the global shipping program again either its a total rip off imho. If you contact a seller and explain you have poor service from them in the past ask if they will ship direct 99% of those I have dealt with have been happy to do so. They are also unaware that the Global seller program can put off potential overseas purchasers due to the sometimes unnecessary extra and excessive costs often charged.


----------



## Ultrainferno

When I see that Ebay Global seller thing I don't even look further. Too bad really cause I was interested in a few tubes Skylab had for sale on his ebay account.


----------



## Skylab

For you head-fi guys, if you ever see some tubes I'm selling on eBay and you want them, PM me here. I will NOT ship internationally without the Global Shipping program on eBay to just any random person because I have been burned too many times and it's just not worth the hassle. But for you guys, I will ship directly (if you pay by paypal of course) without any eBay involvement.


----------



## Xenophon

oskari said:


> You don't have the option to clear the items yourself thus avoiding the customs brokerage fee? In Finland this can be done online.


 
 Theoretically you can file the declaration in person BUT the thing is, this has to happen where the goods are technically cleared by the post which is only at one location in an industrial area close to the capital.  No way to file online unless you're a customs registered entity.  And of course there's zero help with the customs formalities which in my case wouldn't be a problem but would be an almost insurmountable obstacle for the average Joe who wouldn't know what to fill in where on the form.  So yes, in theory it's possible, in practice they screw you out of your money.
  
 If I ever see some of Skylab's tubes (btw, I'm always on the lookout for a 7236 or -a different beast- a 45, hint, hint) then I'll presto send some cash via paypal


----------



## DarkLad

skylab said:


> For you head-fi guys, if you ever see some tubes I'm selling on eBay and you want them, PM me here. I will NOT ship internationally without the Global Shipping program on eBay to just any random person because I have been burned too many times and it's just not worth the hassle. But for you guys, I will ship directly (if you pay by paypal of course) without any eBay involvement.


 
 What's you're ebay ID name if you don't mind me asking !


----------



## Skylab

darklad said:


> What's you're ebay ID name if you don't mind me asking !




Skylab88


----------



## DarkLad

skylab said:


> Skylab88


 
 Thank you


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Anyone know if Raytheon made their own 6AS7 tubes?Thanks!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

finally i got two of these on the way these will be my first 6AS7.....


----------



## hodgjy

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Anyone know if Raytheon made their own 6AS7 tubes?Thanks!


 
  
 They might have, but a lot of Raytheons on eBay are rebadged Russian tubes.  They're the "winged C" tubes.  Not bad tubes, but nothing special, either.  Just cheap and plentiful.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hodgjy said:


> They might have, but a lot of Raytheons on eBay are rebadged Russian tubes.  They're the "winged C" tubes.  Not bad tubes, but nothing special, either.  Just cheap and plentiful.


 
 Thank You!I just bought a Raytheon 6AS7 from a US seller claimed they are US made i guess i have to wait and see.


----------



## hodgjy

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Thank You!I just bought a Raytheon 6AS7 from a US seller claimed they are US made i guess i have to wait and see.


 
  
 Post a pic and we'll tell ya what it is!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hodgjy said:


> Post a pic and we'll tell ya what it is!


 
 I will as soon as it arrived,Thanks!


----------



## Skylab

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Anyone know if Raytheon made their own 6AS7 tubes?Thanks!




I am almost 100% certain that they did indeed.


----------



## rosgr63

They were one of the main tube makers so they most likely made their own 6AS7G.
 They used RK, CK and QK for brand identification.
  
 The 6AS7G is mentioned in  their Special Purpose Tube Characteristics booklet.


----------



## MrEleventy

ctrlshift said:


> These went for $530 US... I thought it would go a lot higher. Whoever won it could prob make a nice profit selling them in pairs
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/281319226103?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT







xenophon said:


> See above:  they're not 5998's and the seller knew so imo.  I thought it fishy because he didn't show a closeup of the plates (far as I know all TS 5998 have the 'domino' plate structure.  So I sent a mail and asked, fort back a fuzzy response about it being some kind of military batch 5998-->sounded like BS to me.  Ultra here thinks the 5998 and TS designation have been added later and he's forgotten more about these tubes than most here know about 'em.  And I don't have them on my screen right now but there was something off with the date codes (number starting wit 322, the last digit indicates the shift number and I recall seeing something was off there).
> 
> If a deal looks too good to be true...I pity the poor guy who purchased them.



Looks like Old Guy Radio is back at it again with a lot of 8 6as7s marked as 5998s.
fleabay.


----------



## Ultrainferno

His prices are always on the high side


----------



## ctrlshift

That's the third lot of 8 '5998's old_guy_radiola is selling since I posted about it. He must have a whole crate of them...


----------



## punit

I have 2 WE 421A's bought from diff vendors, both look bit different. One is a slightly bigger with chrome top, with prominent dimples on the plates & the other one has clear top with barely noticeable dimples. Is this difference because they were made in Diff factories ?


----------



## Xenophon

I didn't find anything regarding a physical change in the tube but going by the date codes the tube with less visible marking was produced in week 39 of 1951 whereas the other dates from week 13 of 1958 so that's quite a difference.  Is the 'less dimpled' one really as matte looking as the pics on my screen make it appear, looks almost coated with some powder, which -together- with the clear top and possibly almost absent/absorbed getter would make me worried.  It tests and sounds ok I presume?  
  
 If it sounds and works ok then I'd chalk it down to  modification in the manufacturing method over the years.


----------



## punit

xenophon said:


> Is the 'less dimpled' one really as matte looking as the pics on my screen make it appear, looks almost coated with some powder, which -together- with the clear top and possibly almost absent/absorbed getter would make me worried.  It tests and sounds ok I presume?
> 
> If it sounds and works ok then I'd chalk it down to  modification in the manufacturing method over the years.


 
 No the matte look is just bad photography but there are some flakes of powder or something stuck to the glass. Both sound good.


----------



## gibosi

punit said:


> No the matte look is just bad photography but there are some flakes of powder or something stuck to the glass. Both sound good.


 
  
 Do they sound different? That is, would you feel comfortable using them together in the same amp as power tubes?


----------



## punit

I have already tried them on WA22. There is a slight diff. It is not immediately apparent, you have to listen for it. But it's there, one side has slightly more treble extension.


----------



## gibosi

punit said:


> I have already tried them on WA22. There is a slight diff. It is not immediately apparent, you have to listen for it. But it's there, one side has slightly more treble extension.


 
  
 Given the differences in internal construction, I would expect them to sound different.... Thanks for the info.


----------



## Dubstep Girl

punit said:


> I have already tried them on WA22. There is a slight diff. It is not immediately apparent, you have to listen for it. But it's there, one side has slightly more treble extension.


 
  
  
 i was about to mention.
  
 similar thing on the 422A rectifier, and well now i guess its also on very few 421A's
  
 I thought all 421A where like 5998 with the darker plates, in your pic, one of them is the older grey plate tube. im guessing maybe only really early 421'a had it or something. 
  
 for comparison, on the 422A rectifier, the lighter grey plate is from the 50s and sounds slightly better than the 60s version. they're almost identical, but i think the grey plate looks cooler, has more of a cool ghostly vintage look to it (the glass was nicer with an eerie light golden tint to it and it lacked the little getters the regular 422a had).
  
 maybe the 421A also has this similarity where the older grey plate version is slightly better. in any case, if i still had a WA2, i'd totally be into the older 421A, maybe thats the REAL version that sounds the best, cause the regular dark plate 421A is pretty much identical to the 5998, except the glass is slightly fatter, but sound-wise, 100% identical.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

My first American Made 6AS7G.The vendor sent me a RCA instead of RAYTHEON.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 The tube is RCA and the box is RAYTHEON what a guy but then again both item start with R to him it's close enough.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I remember asking here before if RAYTHEON made their own tubes and someone said to take a picture when i received them now I'am pretty sure this is not RAYTHEON.


----------



## Skylab

Nope. Not Raytheon. The Raytheon 6AS7G tubes I had all said Raytheon on them. 

The Sylvania is a very nice tube BTW.


----------



## gibosi

skylab said:


> Nope. Not Raytheon. The Raytheon 6AS7G tubes I had all said Raytheon on them.
> 
> The Sylvania is a very nice tube BTW.


 
  
 The Raytheon, Westinghouse and Sylvania 6AS7 I see on eBay all look very similar to the RCA. What features do you look for to distinguish them?


----------



## Skylab

By the logo on the base of the tube 

There aren't major physical differences in most of the us 6AS7Gs. Grey plate/black plate, bottom shield or not, bottom or top getter...all of the makers seemed to make every variant. But this was a very common tube, so it's pretty reasonable to assume Sylvania, RCA, and Raytheon, who were all massive tube manufacturers in the day, were making their own, and not rebranding.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

At least the guy sent me nice one.Thanks!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

The GTC 6AS7 is coming in this week that is the one i'am excited about because it's a unknown brand hopefully it's a nice one.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I've asked the vendor if the tube he sent me is a rebranded and he said it's just a mistake putting the RCA in the RAYTHEON Box.


----------



## Oskari

skylab said:


> By the logo on the base of the tube


 
  
 You do, of course, realize that the brand means practically nothing as to who made the tube.
  
 Yes, Raytheon made tubes. No, no manufacturer made all the types.
  
 Did Raytheon actually make 6AS7Gs? (This is a serious question because I don't know.)


----------



## Skylab

oskari said:


> You do, of course, realize that the brand means practically nothing as to who made the tube.
> 
> Yes, Raytheon made tubes. No, no manufacturer made all the types.
> 
> Did Raytheon actually make 6AS7Gs? (This is a serious question because I don't know.)




Yes of course I'm well aware of that 

Again, 99% sure they did. Do I have certain proof? Nope. But I think my reasoning is pretty sound. Unfortunately I no longer have any of the Raytheon 6AS7Gs I had but IIRC they did have some very subtle differences with the RCAs and the Sylvanias. I still own about a dozen Sylvanias. I only kept them and the Tung-Sol/Chathams from my crazed 6AS7 days...


----------



## Oskari

Fair enough. I knew you'd be aware of that. I was, sort of, trying to preempt any noob hang-ups. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 If there happens to be anybody out there with superior knowledge, please speak up.


----------



## Oskari

i luvmusic 2 said:


> The GTC 6AS7 is coming in this week that is the one i'am excited about because it's a unknown brand hopefully it's a nice one.


 
  
 That is interesting especially if there is a box with information about GTC. Obviously GTC was a rebrander. But who were they and where?


----------



## Skylab

oskari said:


> Fair enough. I knew you'd be aware of that. I was, sort of, trying to preempt any noob hang-ups.
> 
> If there happens to be anybody out there with superior knowledge, please speak up.




Indeed, it would be interesting to know definitively one way or another.


----------



## punit

skylab said:


> I still own about a dozen Sylvanias. I only kept them and the Tung-Sol/Chathams from my crazed 6AS7 days...


 
 Didn't keep any WE 421A's ? Can you describe diff in sound between Syl vs TS please ?


----------



## Xenophon

FWIW, I've found that comparisons between different brands of the same basic tube such as a 6AS7G -to me- are only relevant if you compare them in the same or very comparable amp.  The longer I'm indulging in this tubular madness, the more I've come to see that differences in amp topology and the loadline that was selected for the tube in question (Ep, Eg....) play a far greater role as these tend to have an influence not only on the power available but also on the nature of the harmonic distortion and fraction of 2nd/3rd harmonics etc.  Not even talking about wether or not you'll be using an output transformer or not etc etc.  If you want to go all out you'd almost have to build a setup on a bread board, then play around with different loads and see how it translates sound wise.  Or maybe I'm going gaga and should stop reading about this stuff, that's always another possibility.
  
 Before I know it I'll own as many power and output transformers as tubes.  Truly, there's no limit to this madness....


----------



## punit

True but certain general characteristics never change , for example the TS 5998 / 7236 always gives good bass in all amps I have tried them on.


----------



## JamieMcC

xenophon said:


> FWIW, I've found that comparisons between different brands of the same basic tube such as a 6AS7G -to me- are only relevant if you compare them in the same or very comparable amp.  The longer I'm indulging in this tubular madness, the more I've come to see that differences in amp topology and the loadline that was selected for the tube in question (Ep, Eg....) play a far greater role as these tend to have an influence not only on the power available but also on the nature of the harmonic distortion and fraction of 2nd/3rd harmonics etc.  Not even talking about wether or not you'll be using an output transformer or not etc etc.  If you want to go all out you'd almost have to build a setup on a bread board, then play around with different loads and see how it translates sound wise.  Or maybe I'm going gaga and should stop reading about this stuff, that's always another possibility.
> 
> Before I know it I'll own as many power and output transformers as tubes.  Truly, there's no limit to this madness....


 
  
 Switchable loads is something a few BH Crack users have been trying out recently for the input tubes a few extra resistors and a three way switch on the speedball  (c4s) and its possible to run the 12au7 substitutes 12bh7 & E80cc  tubes much more optimally. The improvement sonically a few extra volts more or less can make is quiet a noticeable in conjunction with the 6080/6as7g driver


----------



## MoatsArt

Bipolar hypo manic episode + Tube addiction = big problem

Don't ask me how I know.


----------



## punit

moatsart said:


> Bipolar hypo manic episode + Tube addiction = big problem
> 
> Don't ask me how I know.


 
 Bipolar or not , Tube addition is a problem. I don't have bipolar but based on the tubes that you have listed for sale (which you mentioned you have purchased even though you didn't need it), I have a bigger problem than you. If I list the tubes that I have purchased (but really don't absolutely need) for sale, it will be at least 3 times your list.


----------



## MoatsArt

Ha..!

I have listed probably a third of what I have bought in the space of a few weeks. 

Perhaps we should form "Tube Addicts Anonymous". Wait, you already know my name. Rats. Maybe Tube Addicts Pseudononymous?

The acronym would be "TAP". Hmm... taps are for drips, so I would fit right in.


----------



## hodgjy

I can guarantee that Raytheon did in fact make their own 6AS7G.  However, I have seen some sellers on eBay trying to pass off Soviet tubes as "Ratheon" tubes.  Gotta be careful out there.


----------



## MJS242

punit said:


> Bipolar or not , Tube addition is a problem. I don't have bipolar but based on the tubes that you have listed for sale (which you mentioned you have purchased even though you didn't need it), I have a bigger problem than you. If I list the tubes that I have purchased (but really don't absolutely need) for sale, it will be at least 3 times your list.


 
  
 Everyone should collect something


----------



## gibosi

skylab said:


> Indeed, it would be interesting to know definitively one way or another.


 
  
 And I too would very much like to see more information on this matter. Personally, I am still rather skeptical that Sylvania, Westinghouse, Raytheon, and perhaps others, manufactured 6AS7's that appear to be identical to RCA. In every other case that I am aware of, which includes a boatload of pentodes and heptodes, as well as double triodes, if a manufacturer devoted the necessary time and resources to produce their own version of a tube, the result was a unique and different product. They would not simply copy another manufacturer's design right down to using the exact same parts.
  
 The exception would be if Sylvania and the others simply licensed RCA technology to build these. After all, RCA was the original developer of this tube. But this kind of technology-licensing appears to have been much more common with second and third tier manufactures located outside of the US, not biggies like Sylvania.  And one could conjecture that it was more cost-effective to simply purchase and rebrand RCA-made tubes, than to build an assembly line to produce RCA knockoffs, much less their own unique design.
  
 But who knows? Maybe Sylvania, Westinghouse and Ratheon actually did license the technology from RCA, sourced all the components from RCA, and then built them in their own factories. And this might explain the subtle differences people hear as they would have been manufactured in different factories.....
  
 Again, I certainly don't know... I'm just throwing this out there... 
  
 Cheers


----------



## Oskari

Interestingly, these seem to exist
  
 JAN-CRC-6AS7G (RCA)
 JAN-CG-6AS7G (GE)
 JAN-CAHG-6AS7G (Chatham)
  
 but the following don't seem to exist
  
 JAN-CHS-6AS7G (Sylvania)
 JAN-CRP-6AS7G (Raytheon)
 JAN-CWL-6AS7G (Westinghouse)
  
 I don't know how significant that is.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hodgjy said:


> I can guarantee that Raytheon did in fact make their own 6AS7G.  However, I have seen some sellers on eBay trying to pass off Soviet tubes as "Ratheon" tubes.  Gotta be careful out there.


 
 Yeah i saw some of those luckily i have some 6H13C and those raytheon wanna be looks exactly like the 6H13C that have the bottom saucer thingy.


----------



## Xenophon

If you want to know about cross-licensing deals involving just RCA, take a look at this:
  
 http://www.library.hbs.edu/hc/lehman/company.html?company=rca_corporation
  
 My guess is it was a tangled mess in the end, a quick liik at the US Patent's office records shows quite a number of patents and -even back then-lawsuits.


----------



## Skylab

oskari said:


> Interestingly, these seem to exist
> 
> JAN-CRC-6AS7G (RCA)
> JAN-CG-6AS7G (GE)
> ...




Well it shows who won the military contracts!!! 

The 6AS7G was a post WWII tube. So military production would have been by contract award, not by government edict.


----------



## rosgr63

My Raytheon commercial version have the same construction as the JAN CRC ones.


----------



## gibosi

Does anyone know when the Chatham No. 3002399 / 5998 were manufactured? I have never seen a date on one of these.....


----------



## TooPoor

I have a couple JAN-CRC-6AS7G (RCA) coming in tomorrow to pair with my La Figaro 339 and RCA Red Hots (5693). Looking for something a little different than my Chatham/Tung Sol 5998s just for comparison sake. IF I prefer them with my HE500, I'll let you guys know and put them up for sale (Chathams).


----------



## Xenophon

In this hobby it's all a matter of taste but owning all the tubes you mentioned, it would surprise me if you'd prefer the RCA's over the 5998.  If you like something different, give the 7236 a spin (very related to 5998 but cheaper and a bit tighter/clearer imo) or the graphite plate/column 6080WB which is actually the only 6080 I prefer to some of my 6AS7G tubes.  I just purchased a pair of 6528 from a member, would like to test them with my 337 but the heater draws 5A.....read some posts indicating that it should work (more than once before blown up my amp, that is) but still a bit hesitant, it's double the current of any other tube I use (and a mu of 9 so very high gain).
  
 Curiosity killed the amp....I'll make sure I have a full stock of the innards on hand and hook up some meters if/when flipping the switch.  In case any kamikaze pilots have tried this with a 337, let me know...


----------



## Oskari

xenophon said:


> In this hobby it's all a matter of taste but owning all the tubes you mentioned, it would surprise me if you'd prefer the RCA's over the 5998.


 
  
 Well, I do...


----------



## MJS242

oskari said:


> Well, I do...


 
  
 It doesn't surprise me when people say they prefer something like the RCA or anything else over the 5998 or even the 421a.  Often, I'm in that same boat.  This is all very much akin to saying someone should like Italian food over Japanese food.


----------



## TooPoor

So far... The RCA doesn't have the volume the 5998 has or the bass (extension/tightness), but it's overall smoother. Give and take. I plan to get the HD650 and HE560 pretty soon so I'll keep both the RCAs and 5998s and see how they play with those. I still don't have my Enigmas yet, but I think the RCAs will probably work really well with them. Overall, I'm happy with the RCA's. Probably will get a lot better with some hours on them.


----------



## aldovan

I have the RCA 6AS7G and the GE 6080.
 After burn-in , I prefer the GE....have a animal BASS !!!
 Any information about Raytheon 6080 ?
 What is the best , Raytheon or CSF Thomson ?
  
 Aldovan


----------



## JamieMcC

Early 1950's Tung-sol 5998 Clear top!
  
 I am actually quiet chuffed with this find, it was in with a bunch of various different untested tubes so took a bit of a gamble with it. First try it didn't work no sound no glow on the heaters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 I pulled it out and had a look to see if I could see any internal damage then retried it ah ha heaters are now glowing and sound sometimes muffled and occasionally dropping out and in on one channel. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Pulled it out to check the pins and they were totally black with a hard carbon type of oxidation. Ten minutes of pin scraping with a xacto knife and a little buff with scotch brite pad later gleaming pins reinsert deep breath relief  and release its now working perfectly and is a beautiful sounding tube what a result!


----------



## aldovan

I have some Tungsol, but the gain is high for my amplifier and the sound distorce. My amplifier do not use a cathode follower configuration, have output transformers and speakers !

Aldovan


----------



## Xenophon

aldovan said:


> I have some Tungsol, but the gain is high for my amplifier and the sound distorce. My amplifier do not use a cathode follower configuration, have output transformers and speakers !
> 
> Aldovan


 
 That's...strange.  What amp is this?  I assume you use 6as7 or 6080 power tubes?  How do you run them and what are the specs on your opt?


----------



## aldovan

My amplifier is home made and I do not use headphone, I have loudspeakers.
The 6080 is the output tube.
My GE play very detailed in this configuration.
The RCA 6AS7G do not sound good as the GE 6080.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

OK so i just received my G.T.C. 6AS7G and i dropped one of them on the floor accidentally.This tube have no number markings at all just G.T.C. made in USA it marked on the base and on the box what you see on the pictures that is the markings it have.


----------



## gibosi

It looks like a Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G to me......


----------



## i luvmusic 2

gibosi said:


> It looks like a Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G to me......


 
 I gonna get one of those Chatham and Tung-Sol 6AS7G this G.T.C. it sound nice to my ear who ever makes it it sound nice.


----------



## aldovan

gibosi said:


> It looks like a Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G to me......


 

 I have one of these 6AS7G with clear tops and side getter.
 Mine is RCA branded... not Tungsol...


----------



## rosgr63

I too have a clear top made/marked as RCA


----------



## Skylab

I have both RCAs and Tung-Sols that are top getter, and some that are bottom getter. Both RCA and TS seem to have made 6AS7Gs with both configurations. RCA of course also made grey and black plate versions.


----------



## aldovan

skylab said:


> I have both RCAs and Tung-Sols that are top getter, and some that are bottom getter. Both RCA and TS seem to have made 6AS7Gs with both configurations. RCA of course also made grey and black plate versions.


 

 Friends
  
 Anyone know if this chinese 6080 play nice ?  Is rare, is the type 6N22P, a 6080 equivalent...
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dawn-Sound-Tube-6N22P-NEW-/320881228484?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab602fac4


----------



## aldovan

Friends
  
 I can get eight Tungsol 6080 for a good price.
 This Tungsol sound fine or is the same of my GEs ?
  
 Aldovan


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I'am happy to say that this GTC it sound nice to my ear.Too bad i killed the other one.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I'am getting a replacement Raytheon 6AS7G and according to the vendor there is a K10 number designation for this tube is this sound right for this Rayteon 6AS7G?


----------



## Skylab

aldovan said:


> Friends
> 
> I can get eight Tungsol 6080 for a good price.
> This Tungsol sound fine or is the same of my GEs ?
> ...




Tung Sol did make a 6080. I don't recall having heard one but it should sound different from the GE.


----------



## aldovan

Friends
  
 Exist a 6080 chinese, Shuguang made
 Anyone know if this chinese 6080 play nice ?  Is rare, is the type 6N22P, a 6080 equivalent...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dawn-Sound-Tube-6N22P-NEW-/320881228484?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab602fac4
  
 I will try get two pair for a test.
  
 Aldovan


----------



## Nic Rhodes

The standard Tung Sol6-80 is one of the better ones, the graphite ones are better again up there with the GECs 6080.


----------



## aldovan

Chatan and Tungsol standard are the same tubes ?


----------



## punit

aldovan said:


> Chatan and Tungsol standard are the same tubes ?


 


skylab said:


> Chatham was purchased by Tung-Sol, who was later purchased by Cetron, who was later purchased by Richardson Electronics.


----------



## aldovan

But Chatam do not is a Tungsol subdivision ? The Chatam factory address is the same of Tungsol.
I read some literature about Chatam and in this the Chatam evento is a Tungsol brand.

Aldovan


----------



## Skylab

Chatham Electronics began as a separate company, but was then purchased by Tung Sol. Tung Sol operated it as a separate division for a period of time, but eventually changed to only using the Tung Sol name.


----------



## aldovan

Them the Chatam 6080 and 6080WA do not have nothing especial in the sound ?
Have a GE 6080 sound, per example ?


----------



## Ultrainferno

I personally find the GE 6080 not to sound that good. The metal base Chatham 6080WA sound quite nice, just like the Thomson ones


----------



## aldovan

I waitng for some Thomson- CSF (very cheap) 6080WA. Them this tube have a good sound ? Fine !

Aldovan


----------



## kvtaco17

aldovan said:


> I waitng for some Thomson- CSF (very cheap) 6080WA. Them this tube have a good sound ? Fine !
> 
> Aldovan


 
  
  
 I just got a pair today and so far they sound good in my Glenn OTL!


----------



## aldovan

kvtaco17 said:


> I just got a pair today and so far they sound good in my Glenn OTL!


 

 Fine ! This tube is detailed ? Have powerful bass ?


----------



## kvtaco17

aldovan said:


> Fine ! This tube is detailed ? Have powerful bass ?


 
 Bass is good, but my Chatham 6AS7's had better impact... these seem cleaner, and airier... and have a slighter wider sound stage then the Chatham's but with less depth.
  
 I just switched to my HD800 and they seem to prefer the Chatham's, my RS1 paired better with the Thomson-CSF... it a good tube so far.


----------



## MoatsArt

If you are looking for a NOS NIB pair of 2399 or 6520 tubes check out the "For Sale" threads. Recently purchased from Skylab. 6520 have 6AS7G style plates.

Selling for price of purchase

Oh. Also have a matched pair of NOS NIB Tung Sol 7802WB graphite plate.

Cheers

Nathan


----------



## Xenophon

You want to watch your amp with the 6520...*the heater draws 5A,* which is about double what a normal 6080 or 6AS7 requires.  Check if your power supply and other components can take it or court disaster.  That being said, I've a pair on order, curious to see how they'll sound.


----------



## Skylab

I think you mean 6528. The 6520 is identical to the 6AS7/6080.


----------



## Xenophon

skylab said:


> I think you mean 6528. The 6520 is identical to the 6AS7/6080.


 
 Oops, right, early morning misreading error on my part.


----------



## Ultrainferno

The 6520 sounds great in the 339 though, but I don't use them that much at all as I only have one pair


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Hi,
   anybody here have a Tung-sol 6080WB graphite plates?Can you please post a picture so i can do a comparison to the tube that i'am about to purchase and also if you can give me an idea how much they go for same for Chatham 6ASG.THANK YOU!


----------



## JamieMcC

I have found a 6080 tube that has me puzzled, I'm not sure where it came from or even what the brand/maker its from.
  
 I'm hoping someone might recognise the small section of printed logo which still remains. It looks very familiar and its annoying that I'm unable to recall it.
  
 TIA


----------



## gibosi

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Hi,
> anybody here have a Tung-sol 6080WB graphite plates?Can you please post a picture so i can do a comparison to the tube that i'am about to purchase and also if you can give me an idea how much they go for same for Chatham 6ASG.THANK YOU!


 
  
 While I don't have any graphite-plate 6080WB's, I can suggest this website for some good pictures:
  
 http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


----------



## gibosi

jamiemcc said:


> I have found a 6080 tube that has me puzzled, I'm not sure where it came from or even what the brand/maker its from.
> 
> I'm hoping someone might recognise the small section of printed logo which still remains. It looks very familiar and its annoying that I'm unable to recall it.


 
  
 While I can't see much detail from your pic, the plates, and top and bottom mica resemble the Mullard (Also labelled as Telefunken, Valvo and GEC) CV2984 6080WA shown on the bottlehead site I mentioned above:
  
 http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


----------



## i luvmusic 2

gibosi said:


> While I don't have any graphite-plate 6080WB's, I can suggest this website for some good pictures:
> 
> http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


 
 Thank You!


----------



## Ultrainferno

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Hi,
> anybody here have a Tung-sol 6080WB graphite plates?Can you please post a picture so i can do a comparison to the tube that i'am about to purchase and also if you can give me an idea how much they go for same for Chatham 6ASG.THANK YOU!


 
  
  


gibosi said:


> While I don't have any graphite-plate 6080WB's, I can suggest this website for some good pictures:
> 
> http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


 
  
 That is a great topic on those tubes there is but it is not complete. We completed the 6080wb list here on Headfi (if it ever will be complete I don't know)


----------



## Oskari

jamiemcc said:


> I'm hoping someone might recognise the small section of printed logo which still remains.


 
  
 That's basically German military. BWB = Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung = Federal Office of Defense Technology and Procurement.


----------



## JamieMcC

oskari said:


> That's basically German military. BWB = Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung = Federal Office of Defense Technology and Procurement.


 

 That's neat thanks and make sense as looking at the image it does look like half a eagle.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> While I can't see much detail from your pic, the plates, and top and bottom mica resemble the Mullard (Also labelled as Telefunken, Valvo and GEC) CV2984 6080WA shown on the bottlehead site I mentioned above:
> 
> http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


 
  


ultrainferno said:


> That is a great topic on those tubes there is but it is not complete.


 
  
 That's true. This is particularly confusing:
  


> *II.d) $50 (NIB) Mullard (Also labelled as Telefunken, Valvo and GEC) CV2984 6080WA*


 
  
 The valve shown is a GEC (made by MOV). Mullard made their own version, and I think that Telefunken also made some.


----------



## gibosi

It is useful to know that the valve pictured on the bottlehead site was manufactured by GEC, and that Mullard made a different version. I have seen a number of Mullard-branded 6080's and wondered why they were different....
  
 For example:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/371039866054?


----------



## JamieMcC

oskari said:


> That's true. This is particularly confusing:
> 
> 
> The valve shown is a GEC (made by MOV). Mullard made their own version, and I think that Telefunken also made some.


 

 Great that helped and your spot on thank you.
  
 its a MOV made Valvo / GEC. I had a Valvo 6080 so dug it out and its identical, plates getters base all exactly the same the Valvo also has the MOV Z factory marking as well as the BWB Eagle mark.
  
  
 
  
 While on the 6080 Mullard subject I seem to have three version. This the oldest it did once have a faint chalky shield logo now long since gone from hot tube removal with a my special sock and my other half thinking it needed a go over with some glass window cleaner. I also have two version of the more modern one but one is a flasher on start the other is not.
  
 This is the older one


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Holy crap the guy is asking $75( one tube) + shipping  for the Tung-Sol 6080WB graphit plate. WOW! Is this tube really worth that much?Does it sound a lot better than those other 6080's?


----------



## JamieMcC

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Holy crap the guy is asking $75( one tube) + shipping  for the Tung-Sol 6080WB graphit plate. WOW! Is this tube really worth that much?Does it sound a lot better than those other 6080's?


 
 They sound different but better that's subjective I prefer the Mullard 6080 and sold my ones I think the attraction is mostly because its a unusual and somewhat harder to find tubes.  The GEC 6as7g and TS 5998s can often be found for less and are preferable imo.
  
 I had been watching these Bendix 6080's today on ebay
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331222165938?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331222160003?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> They sound different but better that's subjective I prefer the Mullard 6080 and sold my ones I think the attraction is mostly because its a unusual and somewhat harder to find tubes.  The GEC 6as7g and TS 5998s can often be found for less and are preferable imo.
> 
> I had been watching these Bendix 6080's today on ebay
> 
> ...


 
 WOW!Can't afford it.........


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Holy crap the guy is asking $75( one tube) + shipping  for the Tung-Sol 6080WB graphit plate. WOW! Is this tube really worth that much?Does it sound a lot better than those other 6080's?


 
 These 2 6080 WB Bendix just sold for over $260.00


----------



## i luvmusic 2

How i wish  i can afford $XXX for a tube.


----------



## Xenophon

jamiemcc said:


> They sound different but better that's subjective I prefer the Mullard 6080 and sold my ones I think the attraction is mostly because its a unusual and somewhat harder to find tubes.  The GEC 6as7g and TS 5998s can often be found for less and are preferable imo.
> 
> I had been watching these Bendix 6080's today on ebay
> 
> ...


 
 If you see a genuine GEC 6AS7G for $75 a tube or less then let me know and I can promise you it won't be around for very long.  Same for the 5998 although there you might get lucky around that price point.  Those Bendix 6080WB are crazily priced, a fellow member pointed them out to me, I already own a slotted plate and column version of the tubes, luckily purchased at a lot more palatable price.  Still my preferred 6080 I think.  
  
 Might write to my fund manager and tell him to forget about rare earth metals but stock up on tubes.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Personally I love their sound, but I paid only $15/tube


----------



## mullardpassion

The Bendix Graphite Plates are definitely great tubes..but not worth +$100 imo. Some years back, they were like $50. Look for good tube sellers and ask them if they have it or can get them for you. I got a great sounding Bendix from a UK seller (not from ebay) some while back..


----------



## Ultrainferno

For the Bendix answer looking people
  
 Quote:


rosgr63 said:


> Lieven has found another variant, so here is the updated Bendix 6080WB list:
> 
> 1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods.
> 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods
> ...


 
  
 1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods. (left tube)
  

  
 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods
  

  
  
 3. Holed Plates with Steel Rods (right tube)
  

  
 4. Rectangular Plates with Steel Rods
  

  
 5. Slotted Plates Curved Face with Copper Grid Rods
  

  
  
 6. Slotted Plates with Curved Slot and Curved Face. 
  

  
 A big Thank You to ROSGR63 for building this list!


----------



## 2359glenn

Those plates look similar to a 6336


----------



## punit

Is the Chatham 6080 Graphite plate same as the Bendix ?


----------



## Ultrainferno

2359glenn said:


> Those plates look similar to a 6336


 
  
 Both Graphite plates indeed, Glenn
  


punit said:


> Is the Chatham 6080 Graphite plate same as the Bendix ?


 
  
 The plates look the same, the construction in yours is a bit different. check the spacers


----------



## MJS242

mikelap said:


> These 2 6080 WB Bendix just sold for over $260.00


 
  
 The last pair before that (original boxes) went for $285.


----------



## MoatsArt

It's hard to put a price on something that is both rare and coaxes beauty from electrons.


----------



## rosgr63

Thanks for completing the list Ultra.
  
 I have not counted for the various retainer types and other details, otherwise the list would be huge.


----------



## kazsud

Just pulled the trigger on a pair of GEC 6080Wa.
Hopefully I get them for the weekend


----------



## Nic Rhodes

deleted


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> It is useful to know that the valve pictured on the bottlehead site was manufactured by GEC, and that Mullard made a different version. I have seen a number of Mullard-branded 6080's and wondered why they were different....
> 
> For example:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/371039866054?


 
  
 Yep, that's a late-vintage tall-bottle Mullard 6080.
  

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0725.htm
  
 The early-vintage ones are more compact.
  

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0007.htm


----------



## Oskari

jamiemcc said:


> its a MOV made Valvo / GEC. I had a Valvo 6080 so dug it out and its identical, plates getters base all exactly the same the Valvo also has the MOV Z factory marking as well as the BWB Eagle mark.


 
  
 It's kind of surprising to see GECs branded as Valvo when Valvo and Mullard were both Philips companies. You never know till you know.


----------



## hodgjy

It's my understanding that Valvo was just an importer, and weren't restricted to a subset of manufacturers.


----------



## Oskari

Valvo was Philips Germany, so to speak, and they also made tubes in Hamburg. On the other hand, rebranding was common in the tube business.


----------



## rosgr63

Valvo made tubes for Wehrmacht during WWII


----------



## Xenophon

Valvo joined the Philips group in 1927, originally they manufactured only tubes but diversified into all kinds of electronics components. They were the largest in Germany at a given time, really took off after WW2 but things went south with the shift to Japan in the 1970-1980's and eventually the name disappeared. I guess there was a major exchange of technology/rebranding going on between various companies whoo were part of Philips. Nice 6080 but nothing really special about it imho.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I found this Chatham 6AS7G is this really a Chatham?It's difficult if you don't know how to identify a tube(That is me) that is why i need you guys opinion.Thank You!


----------



## Skylab

Yup, those are Chatham.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

skylab said:


> Yup, those are Chatham.


 
 Good to know THANK YOU! I bought a pair of Sylvania 6080WB one have all faded markings on glass(the markings does not come off that easy) and the base the other one have faded markings on the base the same with the first tube but  on the glass it looks new to me so as soon as i touch the markings on the glass it came off that tells me that i may have got ripoff for these pair.The seller offered a matching service for free i think usually they will charge for this kind on ripoff service.This is the reason i asked before i get ripoff again. Thank You!


----------



## JamieMcC

I will freely admit to getting abuzz from finding a nice sounding 50-60 year old vintage tube is quiet neat imho that some of these delicate old glass tubes even still survive let alone still work and more often than not sound wonderful as well!


----------



## Xenophon

Well, they're pretty inert when stored in dry conditions.  Army depots are perfect   What fascinates me is that there are a couple of companies who -for some specific tube types, not the 6AS7 or 6080 as there are oceans of those available- are actually starting to build them again using modern techniques and standards.  I'm not talking about the cheap Chinese bulb pressers either but about outfits like Emission Labs, KR Audio etc.
  
 I've got my eyes set on Elrog from Germany, they use cutting edge technology to produce new tubes, only a couple of models now but I had the occasion to actually hear one of their 211 monsters and it takes something to drive (and costs an arm and a leg) but sounds truly exceptional, see here:
  
 http://vinylsavor.blogspot.in/2013/05/elrog-211-and-845-tubes-now-available.html  (check the designs on the site, btw)
  
 They'll be releasing a 300B this fall, based on my 211 experience I definitely want to hear that one and see its output on a scope and frequency analyser.  Then I'm going to build the highest specced tube amp I can afford for it and get a pair.


----------



## kazsud

Has anyone tried SVETLANA?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Have you read anything at all?


----------



## kazsud

ultrainferno said:


> Have you read anything at all?



 


Most of the java related button on my browser at work don't do anything at all when clicked. Especially the search this thread button :/


----------



## gibosi

kazsud said:


> ultrainferno said:
> 
> 
> > Have you read anything at all?
> ...


 
  
 Maybe this will help?
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/newsearch/?search=SVETLANA&resultSortingPreference=recency&byuser=&output=posts&sdate=0&newer=1&type=all&containingthread%5B0%5D=410326&advanced=1


----------



## kazsud

Thank you!


----------



## Oskari

xenophon said:


> things went south with the shift to Japan in the 1970-1980's and eventually the name disappeared.


 
  
 Asian competition certainly left its mark, but that's only half the story. The name Valvo disappeared, like many other local Philips brands, because Philips retired them and wanted to make Philips a global brand.
  
 The Valvo, later Philips, CRT plant in Aachen, for example, survived much longer than what you suggest. At some point, this was the biggest producer of colour CRTs in Europe.
  
 The Valvo tube plant in Hamburg was a bit of a specialist. They made special versions like E81CC/6021s but often were an early adapter to new types like ECC40 or E80CC.
  
 They were also an early producer of semiconductors. This legacy still lives on in Hamburg under the name NXP.
  


> Nice 6080 but nothing really special about it imho.


 
  
 What exactly are you referring to? As far as I know, Valvo never made a 6080. They certainly branded Mullard 6080s, and apparently GECs, too.


----------



## Xenophon

We're not writing a detailed history of everything that was ever served in the company restaurant here.....I know full well that some parts lasted until deep in the 90's but that's irrelevant to their tube business. As to which 6080 I mean, those sold under the Valvo brand, obviously, read what I write, don't guess what I might think. Regardless if they were identical to Mullard or a host of others...they're to my ears run off the mill 6080's and apart from a couple of exceptions I'm not a big fan of that tube.


----------



## JamieMcC

Its quiet easily possible for three or four people to be referring to a particular make of tube say a Mullard 6080 or what ever and they all could be talking about different tubes even though branded the same, plate structures, getters, chemical compositions can vary and all will have a unique individual sonic characters with dates of manufacturing spread over 50-60 years which can make for plenty of debate if its not clear on what specific tube everyone is talking about.


----------



## Xenophon

jamiemcc said:


> Its quiet easily possible for three or four people to be referring to a particular make of tube say a Mullard 6080 or what ever and they all could be talking about different tubes even though branded the same, plate structures, getters, chemical compositions can vary and all will have a unique individual sonic characters with dates of manufacturing spread over 50-60 years which can make for plenty of debate if its not clear on what specific tube everyone is talking about.


 
 Well, everyone believes what he/she wants obviously.  But my religion is that differences in amplifier topology (feedback/no feedback....), driver tubes used, different operating point of the tubes and the resulting load line , variations in output transformers....will have a seriously higher impact.
  
 For instance according to a Tubecad simulation (found by many builders to be pretty much on the mark) for a triode-strapped KT88 you can get a second harmonics component (no feedback used) ranging from <2% to >10%, depending on the voltage, bias point, impedance match with the output transfo...  I mention that tube because I'm modelling with it now but the point is:  these factors are imo much more audible than small variations based on the age of the tubes etc.  
  
 But as I said, it's more of an art/religion than science at this point, it would take some double blind testing and I'm not the proselytising type.


----------



## Oskari

oskari said:


> They made special versions like E81CC/6021s


 
  
 Oops, that's 6201.
  


xenophon said:


> As to which 6080 I mean, those sold under the Valvo brand, obviously, read what I write, don't guess what I might think.


 
  
 That's not very useful then, is it?


----------



## JamieMcC

Comparing a Mullard 6080 to a Mullard KT88 considering the price differences


xenophon said:


> Well, everyone believes what he/she wants obviously.  But my religion is that differences in amplifier topology (feedback/no feedback....), driver tubes used, different operating point of the tubes and the resulting load line , variations in output transformers....will have a seriously higher impact.


 
  
 Interesting and I am not disputing the above as I know it is correct from my own build experience.
  
 One of the things I find interesting about the Valvo/Mov/GEC 6080 is that it is was manufactured in the same factory using the same plate structure as the highly regarded GEC 6AS7G which is sonically on a whole different level to its 6080 version. The two plate structures look/are identical except for the getters. 
  
 As this is a bb about  6as7g/6080 tubes in particular, observations, characteristics and discussion about this tube type are kind of what you should expect to see here.


----------



## Xenophon

jamiemcc said:


> Comparing a Mullard 6080 to a Mullard KT88 considering the price differences
> 
> Interesting and I am not disputing the above as I know it is correct from my own build experience.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're right of course, apologies.
  
 Just wanted to point out that many other variables come into play, when I started out I was of the opinion that the tubes were the decisive factor, have learned a couple of things since then.


----------



## JamieMcC

xenophon said:


> Just wanted to point out that many other variables come into play, when I started out I was of the opinion that the tubes were the decisive factor, have learned a couple of things since then.


 
  
 Totally agree its relatively easy to voice amplifier a certain way to fit with personal listening preferences its a big part of the attraction of building a amp yourself!
  
 How are you liking Tubecad out of interest?


----------



## Xenophon

It's absolutely a great program, takes some getting used to  but saves a lot of time poring over graphs, downloading spec sheets and calculating stuff. Very useful with the different modules.   Not to mention cash savings due to preventing me from blowing stuff to kingdom come.  I have one single box in my house that still runs XP and tube cad and its brethren are the sole reason for that.  My main system is a Mac, I've got parallels running on it but even with an XP emulation-->no joy.  Anyway, if the simulation says it won't work then I don't go there.  The other way around is not always a sure win but a lot better than explaining to my wife why I need a collection of umpteen tubes, a variac, 20 output transformers and interstages and more other gear than I can shake a stick at.  I'd recommend it to anyone who has an interest in experimenting with tube amplifier builds.
  
 I got to know it by sheer coincidence after browsing on diyaudio and purchasing the tubelab SE board for a project, George also uses the software extensively and is a great guy (he does like pushing things over the edge though, I'd hate having to pay his fire insurance cover).  Anyway, one thing led to another.....


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Hi,
    Anyone know who made this IBM 6AS7G?
 Bendix 6080 is this the graphite plates? THANKS!
 SYLVANIA 6AS7G Made in England Made by?


----------



## Dogmatrix

IBM is by Tung-Sol prob 5998
 Yes they are Bendix 6080 WB with slotted graphite plates
 Prob Mullard or Brimar but could be Russian


----------



## i luvmusic 2

dogmatrix said:


> IBM is by Tung-Sol prob 5998
> Yes they are Bendix 6080 WB with slotted graphite plates
> Prob Mullard or Brimar but could be Russian


 
 Thank you! So the sylvania if it's russian i don't need it i have 2 winged C.


----------



## Dogmatrix

It is hard to tell from that angle the getters are the giveaway Mullard or Brimar will have round or square hoops Russian will have little flying saucer cups
 Also the Bendix look like two slightly different plate types both graphite but one slotted the other may be solid type, may be concern if you need a close match


----------



## hodgjy

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Hi,
> Anyone know who made this IBM 6AS7G?
> Bendix 6080 is this the graphite plates? THANKS!
> SYLVANIA 6AS7G Made in England Made by?


 
  
 The Sylvanias are Russian.  I can see the saucer getter.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

dogmatrix said:


> It is hard to tell from that angle the getters are the giveaway Mullard or Brimar will have round or square hoops Russian will have little flying saucer cups
> Also the Bendix look like two slightly different plate types both graphite but one slotted the other may be solid type, may be concern if you need a close match


 
 I thought it was just the opposite of the other side of the 6080 and yes i was trying to see if i can see the saucer thingy but it's hard to see.THANK YOU!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hodgjy said:


> The Sylvanias are Russian.  I can see the saucer getter.


 
 Yes you are right i just looked at it closely and i saw the saucer.Thanks!


----------



## Skylab

Fascinating...I've never seen Sylvania branded Russian tubes before. I've seen those branded Ampex, Ultron, Mullard, and others, but never Sylvania.


----------



## hodgjy

skylab said:


> Fascinating...I've never seen Sylvania branded Russian tubes before. I've seen those branded Ampex, Ultron, Mullard, and others, but never Sylvania.


 
  
 I've even seen them relabeled as Raytheon on eBay.


----------



## MoatsArt

I'm trying to recoup some of the debt I acrued buying these tubes:
  
 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261511548467?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
  
 Tested but otherwise unused.


----------



## Ultrainferno

hodgjy said:


> The Sylvanias are Russian.  I can see the saucer getter.


 
  
  


i luvmusic 2 said:


> Yes you are right i just looked at it closely and i saw the saucer.Thanks!


 
  
 That always is a good giveaway indeed. first time I see them as Sylvania too though


----------



## Dogmatrix

Looking closely at the Sylvania the lettering is inconsistent like it was from a hand made screen or stamp
 Also I was not aware of any Sylvania tube plant in England
 I would guess these have been made up by someone to get a few more dollars for some common tubes


----------



## Skylab

Well if someone went through the trouble to fake them, they should have branded them Mullard or something more likely to bring in some bucks than Sylvania


----------



## i luvmusic 2

skylab said:


> Well if someone went through the trouble to fake them, they should have branded them Mullard or something more likely to bring in some bucks than Sylvania


 
 +1 i cancelled my order.........


----------



## Oskari

dogmatrix said:


> Prob Mullard or Brimar but could be Russian


 
  
 Neither Mullard nor Brimar made 6AS7Gs.


----------



## Xenophon

Sometimes a good deal can be done...if you're lucky.  I purchased some Haltron-labeled 6AS7G's last year.  1 to 3 bucks a tube.  Haltron purchased lots of unbranded tubes from all over the place, mostly western European manufacturers  but sometimes in the US too, occasionally also 'B' grade tubes so you never know for sure what you're going  to get, their only criterion was price.  The tubes I received were actually RCA 6AS7G or a tube that corresponds up to the most minute detail and they sound quite nice, I kept 2 pair and sold the rest (as Haltron, I might add .  
  
 With the 'Russian' Sylvanias, depending on how much you paid i'd give them a try, you might be surprised.  As someone remarked, they could have stamped on another label and made more profit, it's not like Sylvania are the cream of the crop.


----------



## hodgjy

The Russians aren't great tubes, but they are better than mediocre.  They are warm and decently musical.  They have a slight veil to them, but that may be desirable for some really bright and/or clinical headphones.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I do a have  pair of 6H13C so i don't think i will need another one(Russian SYLVANIA?) But these are the two that i would like to buy from Russian Sylvania seller.I cancelled the the Russian Sylvania and Thank You! for pointing out that the 2 Bendix are 2 deferent tube structure.


----------



## kazsud

moatsart said:


> I'm trying to recoup some of the debt I acrued buying these tubes:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261511548467?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
> 
> Tested but otherwise unused.




Well damn.

I would of broke them up in seprate auctions.
If I didn't just buy the gec 6as7g I got lest week I would if bought yours.


----------



## spacequeen7

some nice TS 7236 and Cetron 7236
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/271524866458?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## gibosi

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I do a have  pair of 6H13C so i don't think i will need another one(Russian SYLVANIA?) But these are the two that i would like to buy from Russian Sylvania seller.I cancelled the the Russian Sylvania and Thank You! for pointing out that the 2 Bendix are 2 deferent tube structure.


 
  
 Nice tubes!
  
 I believe you intend to use these 5998's in your Crack? I seem to recall reading somewhere that in order to get the best sound out of these in a Crack, it is necessary to change the cathode resistance. You might want to check into this....


----------



## Ultrainferno

spacequeen7 said:


> some nice TS 7236 and Cetron 7236
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/271524866458?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


 
  
 I bought NOS 7236 just last week for $23/each for matched pairs. Excellent deal!


----------



## Dogmatrix

I find it interesting that the most common tubes are often the least appreciated
 My amp had a winged C when it arrived and I liked the sound the Svetlana tube gave but curiosity sent me hunting for something more exotic
 After a little while hunting I sourced a 5998 for a reasonable price
 My amp was transformed it was like dropping a v8 into a four cylinder car , more everything
 Recently my much loved 5998 developed a slight ring in one channel
 So while hunting once again I decided to drop in a RCA USN CRC 6080 WA 1957
 I purchased this tube because I needed a backup and it was $6 for a tested NOS NIB
 Any way this little tube is great , while it lacks the power of the 5998 it is so clear and totally noise free I think It deserves a little of the spotlight


----------



## i luvmusic 2

gibosi said:


> Nice tubes!
> 
> I believe you intend to use these 5998's in your Crack? I seem to recall reading somewhere that in order to get the best sound out of these in a Crack, it is necessary to change the cathode resistance. You might want to check into this....


 
 Thanks Gibosi! I sure will asked once i have the crack.


----------



## punit

Continuing the Bendix Graphite Plate 6080 conversation from page 91. Just got mine today & they have Rectangular plates / columns in the shape of a cross (+) & with a curve. Is this type 4 out of the 6 types listed by Ultrainferno & rosgr63 ?
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/1350#post_10625059
  
 Also when you say Steel / Copper rods do you mean the rods on the right & left of the plates or are they the rods in between the 2 plates (with a grid in pic 4)


----------



## Xenophon

On the solid column graphite 6080WB I have the outer support rods are all SS afaik, the grid support columns appear to be copper (judging by colour).  Mine look a lot like yours, below you find pics of one TungSol labeled 6080WB next to a 'Hytron' labeled one.  The separation discs appear to be different in colour but otherwise construction looks identical to me.  The one with the white discs (Tung Sol label) looks a lot like what you have in your picture.  I honestly wonder how many individual manufacturers of these there were and wether or not they used the same supplies in construction.  But judge for yourselves and 'find the differences':


----------



## punit

The Bendix I have has a + (Cross) shaped column, whereas the Tung Sol & Hytron posted above have hexagonal circular columns (Just like the Chatham 6080 Graphite Plates I have) . The one on the left is the Bendix & the one on the right is Chatham :


----------



## gibosi

In my limited experience, I have never seen a Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G with steel grid posts. All that I have seen have had copper posts. Has anyone seen one of these with steel posts?


----------



## GrindingThud

Rounded cross....interesting version I've not seen before.



punit said:


> The Bendix I have has a + (Cross) shaped column, whereas the Tung Sol & Hytron posted above have hexagonal circular columns (Just like the Chatham 6080 Graphite Plates I have) . The one on the left is the Bendix & the one on the right is Chatham :


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> In my limited experience, I have never seen a Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G with steel grid posts. All that I have seen have had copper posts. Has anyone seen one of these with steel posts?


 
        Same here  copper posts.


----------



## Ultrainferno

sure, they're around


----------



## Xenophon

The rounded cross Bendix 6080WB graphite is very interesting, never saw one before, I know the straight cross solid version exists.  As for my hexagonal column TungSol and Hytron tubes pictured above, I'm pretty sure they were made by the same manufacturer but just sport a different label.  Construction is identical and on top of the valve is a printed octagonal label indicating '6080 WB' with beneath the octagon 'U.S.A.', see pic below, right one is the TS, left Hytron.


----------



## Xenophon

....and for those wishing to take a walk on the wild side:  here's the 6528 tube plugged into my DV 337, this fits an 6AS7/6080 socket but is a high gain tube (mu of 9) and with a heater drawing 5A (double of a 6080) so make sure your amplifier power supply can take it, if it breaks you get to keep the pieces.  They're still burning in at the moment, a bit microphonic and 'pinging' during warmup (first 5-10 minutes).  Sound promising though.


----------



## GrindingThud

Wow...the 337 can supply 10A of heater?



xenophon said:


> ....and for those wishing to take a walk on the wild side:  here's the 6528 tube plugged into my DV 337, this fits an 6AS7/6080 socket but is a high gain tube (mu of 9) and with a heater drawing 5A (double of a 6080) so make sure your amplifier power supply can take it, if it breaks you get to keep the pieces.  They're still burning in at the moment, a bit microphonic and 'pinging' during warmup (first 5-10 minutes).  Sound promising though.


----------



## Xenophon

grindingthud said:


> Wow...the 337 can supply 10A of heater?




Yes it can although it does mean pushing things. I measured it up and everything stays within normal specs though I will say it runs hot after 5 hours. The 337 is really overdimensioned, very nice engineering and a very nice amp too, certainly at the price. If they'd have marketed them better it would have been a huge hit imo. Once again, be sure to check power supply chain specs before trying these tubes, they're no drop inreplacements for 6AS7 or 6080.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I just received 2 Chatham JAN-CAHG 6080WA and one of them is not working.


----------



## G600

Bad luck !
  
 By the way I'm selling a bunch of those 6080WA in the classified.


----------



## Xenophon

Some 6528 tube listening impressions:
  
 My pair of 6528 have been burning in for the past 24 hours in my DV 337, driver tubes are the Tung Sol 6SJ7 mesh plates, here are some brief impressions:
  
 - Sound stage is somewhere in between the expansive 5998 tubes and the more intimate 6080WB graphite plate tubes
 - They have the 'heft' of the 6080WB in the sound, yet clarity is a bit better.
 - They're detailed but not as detailed/fast as the 7236 or 5998, yet more than most 6080/6080WB tubes.  Advantage vs some 6080 and the 6080WB:  there's no 'smearing' of the sound.
 - Bass is very good, goes REALLY deep but doesn't have the boom and slam of a 5998.  Treble and midrange are very good, among the best I've heard with just a touch of warmth.
  
 I'd say these are ideal with music that doesn't rely on fast, slamming bass and guitar riffs but where the midrange is important.  Glorious with vocals and chamber music.  Would also pair very nicely with jazz/blues.
  
 All the above to be read with a big, fat 'imo' in front of it obviously.  Also note that the DV 337 is a very neutral sounding tube amp.
  
*WARNING:  *The 6528 are heavy current users and *NOT *a drop in replacement for 6AS7/6080 type tubes in any amp.  It's absolutely imperative that you check if your power supply chain can pull them off, else you risk a meltdown.  Also, these are hefty and need a min. 2 minute warmup.  During this period and especially with sensitive cans, I'd recommend leaving the amp volume on 0 and not connecting the headphones as some sharp 'popping' transients come through.  Check if it won't harm your amp to run for this period without connected load.


----------



## hypnos1

xenophon said:


> Well, everyone believes what he/she wants obviously.  But my religion is that differences in amplifier topology (feedback/no feedback....), driver tubes used, different operating point of the tubes and the resulting load line , variations in output transformers....will have a seriously higher impact.
> 
> For instance according to a Tubecad simulation (found by many builders to be pretty much on the mark) for a triode-strapped KT88 you can get a second harmonics component (no feedback used) ranging from <2% to >10%, depending on the voltage, bias point, impedance match with the output transfo...  I mention that tube because I'm modelling with it now but the point is:  these factors are imo much more audible than small variations based on the age of the tubes etc.
> 
> But as I said, it's more of an art/religion than science at this point, it would take some double blind testing and I'm not the proselytising type.


 
  
  


jamiemcc said:


> Comparing a Mullard 6080 to a Mullard KT88 considering the price differences
> 
> Interesting and I am not disputing the above as I know it is correct from my own build experience.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


xenophon said:


> You're right of course, apologies.
> 
> Just wanted to point out that many other variables come into play, when I started out I was of the opinion that the tubes were the decisive factor, have learned a couple of things since then.


 
  
 Hi guys.
  
 Please excuse me for butting in here, but my (most unexpected!) foray into 6AS7G land seems to have been the exception that (dis)proves the rule, and shows that your "starting opinion", Xenophon, was not _entirely_ far off the mark...first a very brief history...
  
 Although not in the same league as most of the other units in this thread, I believe my humble Little Dot MKIV SE has actually displayed the vast difference tubes _can_ make...viz. after a year on the LD tube rolling thread, and having gone from stock EF91,92 & 95 drivers (mine being Mullard M8100) with 2x 6H30Pi-EH powers, thru premium 6DJ8s with (vastly overpriced) 6N30P-DRs, and 6SN7s as power tubes, the improvements have been immense...(we did, of course, have to modify tubes due to different pin-out).
  
 But none of these has given the same massive leaps that came first with my C3GSs as drivers, and secondly a (lovely) pair of Chatham 6AS7Gs in the hot seat - hot being the operative word here! Amazingly, we only had to provide an external heater power supply plus tube adapter for the 6AS7Gs to be accepted... without an ensuing pall of smoke, lol.
  
 I (and others - with the MKIII) have run our units for many hours now without any signs of objection...cases get quite warm, but nothing too drastic. And the difference from what the amps were originally designed around is nothing short of phenomenal.
  
 And so we, at least, have been fortunate to enjoy units punching _way_ above their weight...and the 6AS7Gs have certainly provided a magical, not to mention highly unexpected, boost to that enjoyment - testament to my opening statement...
  
 Another point I personally found, given my particular set-up, was that contrary to *skylab's* findings at the start of this thread, the Chathams  - for me anyway - perform rather better than the RCAs. Obviously, personal preference comes in here, along with driver choice and amp topology, but the Chathams opened things up noticeably, giving an even more "3D/holographic" soundstage and managing to bring out even greater (micro) detail, via instrument separation that gave a beautifully clear presentation, without sacrificing focus/imaging...a sound I had _never_ thought possible from such a lowly machine...(Mind you, I have helped things along a little by providing a decent source - the ESS Sabre DAC in my Audiolab 8200CD - plus pure silver wire in all signal leads, including the HD650's cable and the tube adapters I made myself. A decent mains conditioner also helps, I am sure...)...Sorry if this is too off-topic!
  
 Would like to just show you the results of the past year's experimenting...


----------



## Skylab

Did I once say I liked RCAs better than Chathams? I can't imagine that I did. But if I did, I've long since changed my mind. I prefer the Chathams.


----------



## kkcc

skylab said:


> Did I once say I liked RCAs better than Chathams? I can't imagine that I did. But if I did, I've long since changed my mind. I prefer the Chathams.




What is your opinions with the Chatham 2399/ts5998 and ts7236? And the bendix 6080? Mainly rolling for hd800 across many genre from dubsteps to pop to orchestra... thanks!


----------



## spacequeen7

^^^ "Chatham 2399/ts5998" <= many would say that Chatham 2399 and TS 5998 are identical sounding tubes ,I would say they are similar sounding but not "identical" ,2399 is physically smaller tube and in my opinion 5998 sounds full in comparison to slightly  Laid-back 2399 
  
 ts7236 <= is often referred to as SSD sounding ,it has pretty "crisp"/sparkle in treble and solid "Fat and punchy " bass
  
 bendix 6080 (slotted-graphite ) <= is all about soundstage ,it sounds little syrupy in my opinion but if paired with the right driver tube it can be lot of fun (sounds way better on DV336SE then Crack) 
  
  
 just my 2c


----------



## hypnos1

Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 Did I once say I liked RCAs better than Chathams? I can't imagine that I did. But if I did, I've long since changed my mind. I prefer the Chathams.
  
 Hi Skylab.
  
 Sincere apologies for not getting things quite right...I was reading an old (2008!) post where you compared several amps using the 6AS7G, and I must admit I was a little confused as I was sure that I read in later posts of your liking for the Chathams...they obviously grew on you! And I can certainly understand why...Would I be right in believing the Tung Sol that looks just like an RCA -  with shield around the bottom - is not quite up to the Tung Sol/ Chatham without said shield and with copper posts? Would appreciate your opinion.
 Below is the post I mentioned...
  
  
 "Of the US Makers, RCA-branded 6AS7G’s are by far the most common, and they sound good. Tung-Sol also made 6AS7’s, and they are a little better sounding IMO than the RCA’s (they are also constructed a little differently), but they are much harder to find, and not worth paying an enormous premium for. GE, Sylvania, Chatham and Raytheon also made 6AS7G’s, but they also don’t seem to offer anything the RCA’s don’t sonically, IMO"
  
 ps. Such a shame the GECs have hit the stratosphere...would have loved to hear what they can do, given the fabulous sound I'm getting from the Chathams (then again, perhaps that might be pushing this poor, long-suffering LD one step too far, lol!).


----------



## gibosi

spacequeen7 said:


> ^^^ "Chatham 2399/ts5998" <= many would say that Chatham 2399 and TS 5998 are identical sounding tubes ,I would say they are similar sounding but not "identical" ,2399 is physically smaller tube and in my opinion 5998 sounds full in comparison to slightly  Laid-back 2399


 
  
 That's interesting. My 2399 is slightly larger than my JAN-5998 manufactured in 1962, and slightly smaller than my Jan-5998 manufactured in 1968:


----------



## Ultrainferno

indeed, that is no reference


----------



## spacequeen7

interesting ,I recently had 2x2399 and 3x5998 they were all the same size


----------



## gibosi

In my opinion, whatever is silkscreened on the tube had more to do with sales and marketing than anything else, as it was applied after the manufacturing process. In the end, tubes manufactured in the same factory at about the same time are going to sound virtually the same. With the acquisition of Chatham, do we know if these tubes were manufactured in more than one factory over the years? If so, that would account for some of the sonic differences people hear. Moreover, as these tubes were manufactured over many years, new advances in materials and technology, as well as feedback from the field, resulted in periodic incremental construction changes. Tubes manufactured in the early 1960's will likely sound different than tubes from the late 1960's.
  
 I do not know when the 2399 tubes were manufactured, but I believe I see D-getters inside mine. And as my 1968 tube has O-getters, the 2399 was certainly manufactured earlier. But whether they were manufactured before, or after, my 1962 tube, which also has D-getters, I do not know as I don't have any other 5998's to compare it to....


----------



## gibosi

I am pretty sure these were not manufactured by GEC... Does anyone know who made them?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-6AS7W-Telefunken-Rohre-NEU-6AS7-ECC230-Valve-NOS-Tube-amp-/390889680968?


----------



## john57

I noticed that the tubes have 2011 stamped on them. Notice that the tube pins are very shinny and the black base underneath is very clean. The tubes just can not be very old.


----------



## Skylab

Yeah but we KNOW they were not made in 2011, or any time past the mid 1980's. 

I know we debated a while back as to whether TFKN ever made a 6080 but I'm sorry I don't recall the conclusion.


----------



## Oskari

I don't know who made the tube, but the code 20121 (not 2011) suggests that it wasn't Telefunken. The code was longer on tubes made by Telefunken, and started with U (Ulm) or B (Berlin). Tubes sourced from other manufacturers carried this shorter code. It's a date code, by the way, in this case 02 Nov ?2, perhaps 72.


----------



## john57

Even so that code just looks strange for a Telefunken tube. Found something closer with an answer with another Ebay post.
  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-6AS7W-TELEFUNKEN-US-MADE-MATCHED-PAIR-CRYOTREATED-/190980900125?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7759451d
  
 P.S. My guess it is a GE  tube due to the boxy top with a "Lid" partly open
  
 I got a bunch of those GE tubes at a much lower price. Not a bad sounding tube for the money.


----------



## Oskari

The dot pattern screams GE.
  
 The code is perfectly fine for a Telefunken-branded tube not made by Telefunken.


----------



## john57

It is absolutely a GE tube. If you look at the other pictures on my other Ebay post you can see the GE dots.


----------



## gibosi

Thanks guys! I was pretty sure they were American-made and John's link confirms it.


----------



## hypnos1

Although this thread seems to have gone a bit cold, I would just like to say a big THANK YOU to all who have commented on the GEC 6AS7G - you helped cement my move to these as 'power' tubes in my LD MKIV SE.
  
 Although I found the Chathams paired extremely well with my C3GS drivers, comments re the 5998 had me hungering for more...but as their electrical difference seemed too risky for my unit, I looked more closely at the GECs. despite their rarity and cost! Luckily, I managed to find a pair of CV 2523s (NOS) for not much more than final cost of 5998s shipped to the UK. And all I can say is..WOW!  Everything described about these 6AS7G types certainly is true - no undeserved hype here. So I don't need to tell you guys just what I am now getting...I am now in sound nirvana - that's all I need to say!
  
 Cheers...my final modded LD...


----------



## Dubstep Girl

hypnos1 said:


> Although this thread seems to have gone a bit cold, I would just like to say a big THANK YOU to all who have commented on the GEC 6AS7G - you helped cement my move to these as 'power' tubes in my LD MKIV SE.
> 
> Although I found the Chathams paired extremely well with my C3GS drivers, comments re the 5998 had me hungering for more...but as their electrical difference seemed too risky for my unit, I looked more closely at the GECs. despite their rarity and cost! Luckily, I managed to find a pair of CV 2523s (NOS) for not much more than final cost of 5998s shipped to the UK. And all I can say is..WOW!  Everything described about these 6AS7G types certainly is true - no undeserved hype here. So I don't need to tell you guys just what I am now getting...I am now in sound nirvana - that's all I need to say!
> 
> Cheers...my final modded LD...


 
  
 kinda a waste of such good tubes though with that amp


----------



## Oskari

Grumpy much?


----------



## Ultrainferno

oskari said:


> Grumpy much?


 
  
 I was thinking that too. Even if it is the case I would never have said it


----------



## Lorspeaker

that pair of gec would cost more or less the amp?
I did like the mk4;se....it has big spacious solid sound..
my Lyr sounded congested next to it then. 

==========
if I dun wan a GEC..or a Tungsol 6as7s
what else is worth looking at? for a DV336se


----------



## i luvmusic 2

dubstep girl said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > Although this thread seems to have gone a bit cold, I would just like to say a big THANK YOU to all who have commented on the GEC 6AS7G - you helped cement my move to these as 'power' tubes in my LD MKIV SE.
> ...


 
 Imagine those guys with CRACK(You can buy 2 crack for the price of that LD without those tubes)They're using similar tubes and more expensive/exotic tubes.


----------



## kchew

At a local headphone meet, I let a Crack owner try my GEC 6AS7 on his amp. After warming up for 15 mins and listening for another 2 mins, he promptly turned it off and returned my tube. He told me it was so good that if he listened any more, he would have to empty his wallet and get one himself.

I'm still hunting for a rounded-base pair, but I do not look forward to finding out how much they cost now...


----------



## Xenophon

lorspeaker said:


> that pair of gec would cost more or less the amp?
> I did like the mk4;se....it has big spacious solid sound..
> my Lyr sounded congested next to it then.
> 
> ...


 
 Sylvania 7236.  Very nice if you like your sound crisp, clear and delicate.  Not for baseheads though.  All 'IMO'.


----------



## kazsud

xenophon said:


> Sylvania 7236.  Very nice if you like your sound crisp, clear and delicate.  Not for baseheads though.  All 'IMO'.




+1


----------



## hypnos1

dubstep girl said:


> kinda a waste of such good tubes though with that amp


 
  
 I hear you D G...I keep dreaming about how they would sound in a (DV) La Figaro 339...ssshhh - I'm secretly hoping my poor LD will finally succumb to the torture of using these tubes...then...!!
  
 However, until then I shall continue to appreciate what this modest unit can deliver with upgraded tubes...on our rolling thread we have taken various models WAY beyond stock. And I think you would be VERY surprised at the sound now coming out of my own one - helped, I am sure, by pure silver in all external signal paths (including the HD650 cable, which I have connected directly to the amp) and fed by an ESS Sabre DAC...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  


lorspeaker said:


> that pair of gec would cost more or less the amp?
> I did like the mk4;se....it has big spacious solid sound..
> my Lyr sounded congested next to it then.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad you have positive memories of your MKIV SE..."big, spacious, solid" only just _begins_ to describe what these tubes are doing to this model, lol!
  
 I was EXTREMELY lucky to get the CV 2523s for a little less than the amp, so I wasn't _too_ shaken by the (impulsive?) move...plus I was looking to the future 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  


i luvmusic 2 said:


> Imagine those guys with CRACK(You can buy 2 crack for the price of that LD without those tubes)They're using similar tubes and more expensive/exotic tubes.


 
  
 Hi ilm2...might have given the Crack a try, if it weren't for darned customs/VAT/shipping to UK! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


kchew said:


> At a local headphone meet, I let a Crack owner try my GEC 6AS7 on his amp. After warming up for 15 mins and listening for another 2 mins, he promptly turned it off and returned my tube. He told me it was so good that if he listened any more, he would have to empty his wallet and get one himself.
> 
> I'm still hunting for a rounded-base pair, but I do not look forward to finding out how much they cost now...


 
  
 Hey kchew, that's one of the best endorsements I've come across 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...glad to know I haven't wasted my money!


----------



## hypnos1

By the way...thanks everyone for the interest you've shown and comments given...


----------



## Lorspeaker

apart from the sylvania....any other contender/s?


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Sure it's a nice tube but too much $$$ for my CRACK it's actually more than my CRACK no thanks!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW CRACK vs LD  i compared my Modded LD MK III to my stock CRACK,Crack all the way for me.


----------



## JamieMcC

While the stock Crack is super, for a few dollars more a hot rodded Crack with premium tubes combined with the Beyer T1's is truly epic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I will be listing mine here soon its a UK 240 version (tubes shown not included) as I have a new bespoke Bottlehead build underway.


----------



## gibosi

lorspeaker said:


> that pair of gec would cost more or less the amp?
> I did like the mk4;se....it has big spacious solid sound..
> my Lyr sounded congested next to it then.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is impossible for any of us to know what you will like..... As a colleague once said, tubes are lot like ice cream. In order to know your favorite flavor, it is necessary to taste every flavor in the store. Or at least as many as you can afford. lol. Since the GEC and Tung-Sol/Chatham 6AS7's are off the table, maybe try a Sylvania 6080, Tung-Sol/Chatham 6080, GE 6080 or a Mullard 6080. In addition to the Sylvania, the Tung-Sol/Chatham 7236 is certainly worth a try. And for a bit more money, maybe even a GEC 6080.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> While the stock Crack is super, for a few dollars more a hot rodded Crack with premium tubes combined with the Beyer T1's is truly epic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Mine is getting the Mundorf 100uf 400V Caps.


----------



## JamieMcC

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Mine is getting the Mundorf 100uf 400V Caps.


 

 You will be pleased with then they are good sounding capacitors I ran some for a while.
  
 Edit I had a care package arrive today


----------



## Ultrainferno

You got an excellent deal on that. beat me by 1€ lol


----------



## skeptic

jamiemcc said:


> You will be pleased with then they are good sounding capacitors I ran some for a while.
> 
> Edit I had a care package arrive today


 
  
 Beautiful tubes!  All graphite plates?


----------



## kazsud

How do the mullard 6080 sound?


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Mine is getting the Mundorf 100uf 400V Caps.
> ...


 
  That Chatham 6080 sound very nice i bought 2 of that and when it arrived one doesn't work.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Does the CHOKE and the big CAP on the Transformer side make a difference in sound?


----------



## JamieMcC

ultrainferno said:


> You got an excellent deal on that. beat me by 1€ lol


 
  
  Better luck next time I have been piped at the post a few times as well by fellow headfiers myself.
  
  


skeptic said:


> Beautiful tubes!  All graphite plates?


 

 All Graphite apart froms one Tung-sol 6080wa black plate


kazsud said:


> How do the mullard 6080 sound?


 
  
 The early the better I have seen three version early ones have twin getter and there is a later flasher version and non flasher that look both look the same its a nice tube imho


i luvmusic 2 said:


> That Chatham 6080 sound very nice i bought 2 of that and when it arrived one doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 The 6080wa is run of the mill but the 6080wb graphite the differences are more noticeable there are a whole stack of different versions they seem to be a bit picky when it comes to pairing with the input tube.
  
 Short answers yes the installing a Choke and replacing the last electrolytic capacitor with a film one make a very noticeable improvement.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> ultrainferno said:
> 
> 
> > You got an excellent deal on that. beat me by 1€ lol
> ...


 
 THANK YOU! I will be ordering C-7X choke now for $17 i will take two.C-7X is that the one you've used?


----------



## JamieMcC

i luvmusic 2 said:


> THANK YOU! I will be ordering C-7X choke now for $17 i will take two.C-7X is that the one you've used?


 
  
 Before you order the Triad C7-X check out the thread on the bottlehead forum it details the mod and there is some discussion on the technical aspects http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,6030.0.html 
  
 With a standard enclosure fitting one of the chokes in is a bit of a challenge there are a few who have fitted them recently you will have a struggle getting two of them in. Much of the impact from the changes come from the large film cap most probable due to the big reduction in esr. The choke helps by substantially reducing noise and ripple. Ripple is reduced from around 1.5m in the standard Crack to 67u with the choke fitted.
  
 By the way my case is about a inch deeper than a standard Crack enclosure.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > THANK YOU! I will be ordering C-7X choke now for $17 i will take two.C-7X is that the one you've used?
> ...


 
 Again Thank You Very Much!


----------



## adamaley

jamiemcc said:


> While the stock Crack is super, for a few dollars more a hot rodded Crack with premium tubes combined with the Beyer T1's is truly epic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Interested in seeing your new Bottlehead Crack. If it looks better than the one you are listing for sale, I may have a little accident, if you know what I mean, lol. Will you be performing the same upgrades to the new Crack, or would you go even further. If so, do you mind sharing?


----------



## JamieMcC

adamaley said:


> Interested in seeing your new Bottlehead Crack. If it looks better than the one you are listing for sale, I may have a little accident, if you know what I mean, lol. Will you be performing the same upgrades to the new Crack, or would you go even further. If so, do you mind sharing?


 

 The next Bottlehead amp I will be doing is the Sex amp but I can see me doing a Crack again in the future.


----------



## adamaley

Sweet.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

How do you test a tube for short without a tube tester is this possible?Thanks!


----------



## JamieMcC

Ok so I have a new toy a Hickok 6000 and am having a grand old time learning how to use it.

 A little question that's been puzzling me when looking at the settings for testing tubes

 In this instance I am looking at the 6080 varieties firstly as I was generally under the impression that a 6080 and a 6as7 where essentially the same other than their glass enclosure but I note differing settings on my testers tube charts.

 It is the shunt settings that are different can anyone shed some light on what the shunt value is and is there some form of interpolation between the two differing shunt values that need to be applied for differing varieties of letter suffix also is this adjustment due to differing bottle size?

 Out of interest how might setting the shunt at 81 half way between the two effect the reading would it be safe to try out of curiosity?

 6080   7,5   HY-4506-2   100   83   A   3400   Triode No. 1
 6080   7,5   HY-1203-5   100   83   A   3400   Triode No. 2

 6AS7   7,5   HY-4506-2   100   79   A   2600   Triode No. 1
 6AS7   7,5   HY-1203-5   100   79   A   2600   Triode No. 2

 The second question is for US and UK manufactured tubes I am guessing it will be ok to test UK made Mullard or Brimar 6080 using the same tester settings for the 6080 US manufactured tubes and the same would go for test UK 6as7 varieties such as GEC 6as7G with the same setting as the US version?

 If anyone can shed a little light on the subject it would help
  
 Cheers


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Nice toy can i borrow it Please!I will walk and pick it up.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi everyone.
  
 Just thought you (6AS7G/6080 lovers) might be interested in a project I managed to persuade the makers of the Feliks-Audio Espressivo to consider.
  
 Their unit looked very interesting, very well made and reasonably priced, but I felt they were missing out big time by using 6N1P drivers and 6N6P powers. So (rather cheekily!) I suggested they consider a unit using 6SN7 drivers and 6AS7G/6080 powers, given the popularity of these tubes and the wonderful results that they can produce...my impetus coming from the magic of the GEC 6AS7Gs.
  
 Well, they have decided to make a prototype (which I never really thought they actually would!) which, if they can keep the cost well below the LaFigaro 339 for example, could be a real giant-killer. Especially as many of us already have the necessary tubes to make good improvements over what will have to be used stock, to keep the price competitive.
  
 So I am waiting with baited breath to see how things progress...
  
 If anyone is interested, I am sure Lukasz at feliks-audio.pl would really appreciate some positive feedback on this project...I just hope they can manage to put together this potentially exciting unit without costs spiralling!
  
 Below is the current Espressivo...
  

  
 Fingers crossed...
  
 ps. Their email address is wzmacniacze@feliksaudio.pl


----------



## Lorspeaker

ermm...can they also come up with a DV336se type of amp..my coffeetable aint got the space !!


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> ermm...can they also come up with a DV336se type of amp..my coffeetable aint got the space !!


 
  
 Hi L.
  
*IF* these guys can manage to pull off a minor (no, MAJOR!) miracle and pitch the unit at about the LD MK9 price point (or less?!), then you would simply HAVE to get a bigger coffee table, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Will keep this thread informed as to progress...(I for one am keeping EVERYTHING crossed they can do it!...).


----------



## Lorspeaker

can they do a balanced tube amp?


----------



## i luvmusic 2

The Bottlehead S.E.X. can be run in both SE and Balance and it's a tube amp.


----------



## MrEleventy

If his coffee table can't fit the first option, I doubt the S.E.X. would as well.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Get a next coffee table (just Kidding).


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> can they do a balanced tube amp?


 
  
 Hey, L...you want _blood_ ?!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...the quest is to come up with an amp that has a really good spec; better quality construction than your average Chinese unit, and at a reasonable price...it'll be a miracle if the feliks-audio guys can manage what has already been requested lol! More bells and whistles = more $$$, of course...catch 22 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


i luvmusic 2 said:


> The Bottlehead S.E.X. can be run in both SE and Balance and it's a tube amp.


 
  
 Ah yes, ilm2...but how much is the assembled S.E.X.?!


----------



## mullardpassion

Just got a 5998 from a stash, it has "45/53 mA" written over it..Could someone enlighten me on what it could mean? The tube looks and sounds good btw


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> lorspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > can they do a balanced tube amp?
> ...


 
 Cheaper than these "*Little Dot MK VIII SE 12AT7 6H30PI Balanced Headphone Amplifier black".*


----------



## Skylab

mullardpassion said:


> Just got a 5998 from a stash, it has "45/53 mA" written over it..Could someone enlighten me on what it could mean? The tube looks and sounds good btw




Yes...it's the test result of a tester measured in plate current. I don't know what the standard in mA of a 5998 is but one thing those number mean is that the two sections are not that well matched.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> can they do a balanced tube amp?


 
 Hi again, L.
  
 Actually, I will ask them if they can run to at least a balanced output as well as SE, without incurring _too_ much extra cost - another interested guy asked for a protection circuit in the pre-amp section for use of a DC coupled amp, and they will incorporate it in the prototype...so they are obviously interested in suggestions that are going to be feasible.
  
  
 Quote:


i luvmusic 2 said:


> Cheaper than these "*Little Dot MK VIII SE 12AT7 6H30PI Balanced Headphone Amplifier black".*


   
 Hopefully, the cost should be WAY below this LD! And the 6H30Pi just can't compare with a good 6AS7G _or _6080 IMHO...
  
  


>


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> lorspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > can they do a balanced tube amp?
> ...


 
 I'am interested as long as the cost is reasonable and can be used in both SE and BALANCED Mode(user switchable).


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I'am interested as long as the cost is reasonable and can be used in both SE and BALANCED Mode(user switchable).


 
  
 Given what we're asking of these guys, I'm not just crossing everything in hope...I'm PRAYING, lol!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > I'am interested as long as the cost is reasonable and can be used in both SE and BALANCED Mode(user switchable).
> ...


 
 Lets just wait and see......


----------



## Lorspeaker

Start a thread for those seriously interested...my credit card is maxxx out


----------



## mullardpassion

skylab said:


> Yes...it's the test result of a tester measured in plate current. I don't know what the standard in mA of a 5998 is but one thing those number mean is that the two sections are not that well matched.


 

 Thank you Skylab..Thats a backup tube for my Crack.My main 5998 is a little microphonic, but I could live with that
 The prices nowdays for such tubes are wack


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> Start a thread for those seriously interested...my credit card is maxxx out


 
  
 Hi *Lorspeaker.*...are you a mind-reader as well as a serious (if somewhat bankrupt!) hi-fi nut?
  
 Well, I have in fact gone ahead and started a new thread : "Feliks-Audio...a 6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype".
  
 So for anyone interested in progress, I shall also be keeping this new thread updated as to progress...
  
 BTW. They are considering balanced output as an optional upgrade, so they can (in all seriousness) try to pitch the base unit at *BELOW £500!!* This certainly would be some miracle 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...let's just hope they can achieve the impossible, lol...
  
 ps. Perhaps you'll need another credit card...just a _little_ one?!


----------



## Lorspeaker

i read your mind?... u are almost begging to start a thread, it is inevitable...u are starting a polish revolution


----------



## hypnos1

dubstep girl said:


> kinda a waste of such good tubes though with that amp


 
  
 Hi again *DG*.
  
 As my LD is suffering from an inferiority complex 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, in case you didn't catch my recent posts I have (somehow!) managed to persuade the Feliks-Audio people in Poland to come up with an amp using 6SN7s and 6AS7G/6080s, hopefully at a VERY competitive price...have started a new thread, if you're interested : *"Feliks-Audio...6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype".*
  
 ps. Those tubes worked miracles on the LD, but the poor thing really is having to work hard keeping up with them, hence my search for something designed for them - I want to see what these GECs can REALLY do, lol!


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> i read your mind?... u are almost begging to start a thread, it is inevitable...u are starting a polish revolution


 
  
 Poland v China perhaps?...May the best man win!!


----------



## Lorspeaker

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again *DG*.
> 
> As my LD is suffering from an inferiority complex
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi  Hynos1,
 can u take a few fotos of the GEC tube n post it here? (when u have the time)
 i would like to take a look at the construction of the plates. getters etc...just to help me salivate.


----------



## gibosi

Here is a sold eBay listing with some nice pictures:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-England-6AS7G-NOS-Pair-of-Tubes-Valves-Perfect-Test-Perfect-New-/251551554381?nma=true&si=1JP3sUUimpTS9CXtHJ13GlGDB4g%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## Lorspeaker

at a glance, looks 80-90% like a Chatham...i say LOOKs. 
 dunno how it actually sounds...sigh.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> at a glance, looks 80-90% like a Chatham...i say LOOKs.
> dunno how it actually sounds...sigh.


 
  
 Hi *L.*
  
 Similar looks...BUT DIFFERENT! There are variations even within the "GEC" group...will take some close-ups of different constructions later on today (BST time, don't forget!).
  
 As for sound, they do all the good things of the Chatham...but everything even more so. Although I don't have the 5998, from what I can gather the GECs make up for what seems to be otherwise lacking in comparison to the Chatham - *Skylab*'s the man for best info on this, I think...


----------



## Skylab

The tubes in that eBay auction that was linked are absolutely UK GEC, not Chatham. Quite different.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> Hi  Hynos1,
> can u take a few fotos of the GEC tube n post it here? (when u have the time)
> i would like to take a look at the construction of the plates. getters etc...just to help me salivate.


 
  
 Looks like you're a real hooked tube addict, L - gettin' that way myself lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Anyway I'm afraid I just can't get the photos to upload properly...whether it's this site (things seem to be very patchy recently on these threads..) or my useless broadband connection, so I will have to try tomorrow...sorry...


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Looks like you're a real hooked tube addict, L - gettin' that way myself lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Correct me if im wrong arent those tubes yours  from Tube rolling guide.


----------



## JamieMcC

I would say when many mention the GEC 6as7g that's the type they mean with the saucer getters at the bottom they can also be found with a halo getter. Both sound pretty much identical to me.


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Correct me if im wrong arent those tubes yours  from Tube rolling guide.


 
  
 Thanks mikelap....they sure are - CV2523s. These have the "pan" style bottom getter. I also have an Osram A1834, with bottom "D" getter and curved-bottom base. Plus 2 (dead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) GEC A1834s, again with curved- bottom base and "pan" getter and 1 (dead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







) Osram A1834 with straight-bottom base and pan getter...good used examples of these tubes are VERY hard to find! (the UK merchant who is trying his best to find some that actually work amongst his stock of "ex-equipment" tubes gave me the shocking news that just over a year ago he had a stock of about 200!!! Then they started flying out...word had obviously spread across the web - via our forums?! - and either one hell of a lot of enthusiasts were made very happy, or some serious stock-piling/speculation took place...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Afraid I'm getting very cynical in my old age, lol!


----------



## Lorspeaker

200 pieces??? he must hav made a $$$KILLING...
 let me be contented with my 15bucksRCAs/Chathams.


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> 200 pieces??? he must hav made a $$$KILLING...
> let me be contented with my 15bucksRCAs/Chathams.


 
 Yup like most of us .


----------



## hypnos1

hypnos1 said:


> Looks like you're a real hooked tube addict, L - gettin' that way myself lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah well, here goes...I'll try again!...
  



  
 Hoorah! - Success, at last. Hope they prove of interest...


----------



## Oskari

Tube photos, not unlike cat photos, are always of interest.


----------



## gibosi

What is the difference between the Svetlana "Winged C 6H5C" and "Winged C 6H13C"?


----------



## GrindingThud

I believe the 6N5S is the military equivalent of the 6N13S. 


gibosi said:


> What is the difference between the Svetlana "Winged C 6H5C" and "Winged C 6H13C"?


----------



## gibosi

grindingthud said:


> I believe the 6N5S is the military equivalent of the 6N13S.


 
  
 From the datasheets, they appear to be different:
  
 6N5S/6H5C
 http://gstube.com/data/581/
  
  
 6N13S/6H13C
 http://gstube.com/data/2948/
  
 Also, more complete datasheets at oldradioclub, djvu files:
  
 http://oldradioclub.ru/datasheet/datasheet.html
  
 Since all of these documents are entirely in Russian, they are largely incomprehensible to me. But I do notice that the values on these datasheets are different. And in general, a number of the values for the 6N13S are slightly higher than the 6N5S. This leads me to wonder if the 6N13S corresponds to a 5998 and the 6N5P, a standard 6AS7. But again, this is nothing more than conjecture on my part.....


----------



## GrindingThud

Don't wonder....it's not a mystery. The gains are lower than even 6AS7. They are not even close to 5998, neither.
From the documents you posted, transconductance of the 6N5S is 6700 and the 6N13S is 5000.
6AS7 is 7000, and the 5998 is 14000.....


----------



## gibosi

It's great that you were able to figure that out. Thanks!
  
 So I think we now know that the 6N5S and 6N13S are not only electrically different from each other, but both are electrically different from a 6AS7. And this is very good to know for those of us who might be interested in rolling these tubes.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Lorspeaker

I did a brief shootout betw a Shu Guang 6N5PJ, Svetlana C Winged 6N13, Tungsol5998 :
  
 Quick Notes..
  
 Attack :               TS ,              CWinged, SG
 Air      :                CWinged.      TS,  SG 
 Soundstage :      CWinged,      TS, SG
 Resolution :         TS,CWinged,      SG
 Bass Quantity :    TS,                SG, CWing
 Mids/Liqudity  :    SG                TS, CWing
  
 ( Above In order of Most to Least..the 2nd n 3rd are closer/equal to each other)
  
 ========================================
 The ShuGuang is slightly rounded in the attack, very pleasant to listen to, good soundstage, excellent for vocals, not weak in bass..quite balanced.
  
 The Cwinged Russian is airy, tall big soundstage..music embracing me all around. comparatively thinner than the other two, but not a weakness still..v good for orchestra music.
  
 The Tungsol is an attack dog, the bass impact n attack on the notes make itself known straightaway.
 If u like slamm with a little bite...this is the tube. For Rock/Jazz music?
  
 =============
 Out of this shootout, i found an interesting GEM in the chinese tube.
 It is like a chinese MULLARD of sorts to my ears...on this particular setup.
 Do keep one in your tube-chest 
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6N5PJ-Double-Triode-Valve-Tube-for-DarkVoice-Headphone-Amplifier-Preamplifier-/121421282202?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item1c4545bb9a
  
 (Setup : audiogd nfb10.32..DV336se. front tube is a Psvane CV181Tii ...DT150)


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> I did a brief shootout betw a Shu Guang 6N5PJ, Svetlana C Winged 6N13, Tungsol5998 :
> 
> Quick Notes..
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good work,* L...*that certainly seems good news for the Feliks-Audio project, using 2 6N13S powers...especially as the maker of the GLENN amps stated over at the 6SN7 tube addicts thread that he found them the best - for his amps, anyway. So there should be no worries about them being "inferior" as stock tubes.
  


hypnos1 said:


> Thanks mikelap....they sure are - CV2523s. These have the "pan" style bottom getter. I also have an Osram A1834, with bottom "D" getter and curved-bottom base. Plus 2 (dead
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Guys, I'm gonna cry (which I don't do very often) - what has this tube amp/rolling thing done to me, lol?...My very first working (Osram, curved-bottom base) and last remaining "ex-equipment" beauty has also just died..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










...and nearly took my HD598s with it, methinks! Only glad I didn't have the 650s in (have learned to be cautious with new (old) tubes...).
  
 So now my fella's got to try and find three more...but to tell the truth, I'm now somewhat reluctant to take the risk...but no doubt I shall!!  Now I feel a bit better about having splashed out on the NOS CV 2523s...I pray they "live long and prosper"!
  
 Be careful out there...


----------



## GrindingThud

Anyone have a link to a data sheet for the Chinese 6N5PJ?


----------



## Lorspeaker

hypnos1 said:


> Guys, I'm gonna cry (which I don't do very often) - what has this tube amp/rolling thing done to me, lol?...My very first working (Osram, curved-bottom base) and last remaining "ex-equipment" beauty has also just died..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey...my pro900 died on me when one of my tubes burnt out...is that what happened to your 598? 
 i am unfamiliar with the science of it...is that a norm/danger to watch out for..
 but to be honest, how does one watch out for tubes burning out???


----------



## gibosi

grindingthud said:


> Anyone have a link to a data sheet for the Chinese 6N5PJ?


 
  
 http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-008/Scans-00176494.pdf


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> Hey...my pro900 died on me when one of my tubes burnt out...is that what happened to your 598?
> i am unfamiliar with the science of it...is that a norm/danger to watch out for..
> but to be honest, how does one watch out for tubes burning out???


 
  
 Sorry to hear that,*L*...
  
 Wish to God I knew, ...does anyone else?...
  
 Luckily I had the 598s on straight from start-up - otherwise I'm quite sure they would have gone. The high-pitched "scratchy", bad connection type of distortion was just getting louder and louder to the point of hurting...not nice! Dread to think what chance there is when doing a 6-hour+  burn-in session, lol!! (Which is why the really savvy guys use a cheap pair of 'phones for such tasks...gonna get myself some right NOW!).


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry to hear that,*L*...
> 
> Wish to God I knew, ...does anyone else?...
> 
> Luckily I had the 598s on straight from start-up - otherwise I'm quite sure they would have gone. The high-pitched "scratchy", bad connection type of distortion was just getting louder and louder to the point of hurting...not nice! Dread to think what chance there is when doing a 6-hour+  burn-in session, lol!! (Which is why the really savvy guys use a cheap pair of 'phones for such tasks...gonna get myself some right NOW!).


 
  
 Yes I would always advise using a old pair of headphones for burning in or when trying any new tubes for the first time and also for checking after doing mods on your amp. Failing that don't have your cans plugged in when you turn on, let the tube burn in for a few minutes whilst observing for arching first then plug your cans in.


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> Yes I would always advise using a old pair of headphones for burning in or when trying any new tubes for the first time and also for checking after doing mods on your amp. Failing that don't have your cans plugged in when you turn on, let the tube burn in for a few minutes whilst observing for arching first then plug your cans in.


 
  
 Hi JMcC.
  
 Good point about doing so after any kind of mod, as well  as new tubes...
  
 Re your second suggestion, there were no signs at all of arcing from my bad tube...one day all was well, the next - OUCH!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Cheers.
  
 Edit...ps. I don't doubt that if I'd left it much longer there _would_ have been plenty of sparks, lol!!
  
 Second edit...Even with the cans out (and saved!), can such a catastrophic failure have any damaging effect on the amp itself?


----------



## marone

lorspeaker said:


> Hey...my pro900 died on me when one of my tubes burnt out...is that what happened to your 598?
> i am unfamiliar with the science of it...is that a norm/danger to watch out for..
> but to be honest, how does one watch out for tubes burning out???




Check out the DIY sites that build amps, speakers and such.

Many things could have happened.

An educated guess is that a capacitor went bad somewhere, this caused a resistor to fail, and your phones were exposed to high unregulated levels of A/C or dc for a few milliseconds as the tube attempted to keep running in the now unstable circult. Your headphones were weaker than the tube so they died first and the tube a few ms later. More than long enough to cook everything and make a little
hmmmmmmmmmThruup sound. Then silence.

Capacitors are usually the culprits these days, almost all made in China, for cheap. They go bad in computers, power supplies, flat screens, amps - everything. If you know what you are doing, 15 minutes and a few dollars later you can replace the cap and it's all good if the only bad component is the cap.

I had a very good sounding and inexpensive Chinese hybrid amp fry yesterday. I popped the chassis and the heat caused two wires in a harness from the preamp to amp section to eventually bake, harden, then become conductive to the chassis that was nearby. The two adjacent caps were cooked, and the amp went silent. It was made on an assembly line with tiny diodes and resistors on a complex PCB so repair won't be possible beyond replacing the caps and harness.


----------



## Lorspeaker

marone said:


> Check out the DIY sites that build amps, speakers and such.
> 
> Many things could have happened.
> 
> ...


 
  
 In my case, only the tube n the can died...the amp was fine. whew...
 i saw the arching on the tube, heard a sound on my left cup,
 then the sound went off on that cup. 
 i tried to "unscrew" the cup/driver...n ripped a support that held the driver to the  cup...
 and tossed the whole can...frustrated. lol.


----------



## marone

lorspeaker said:


> In my case, only the tube n the can died...the amp was fine. whew...
> i saw the arching on the tube, heard a sound on my left cup,
> then the sound went off on that cup.
> i tried to "unscrew" the cup/driver...n ripped a support that held the driver to the  cup...
> and tossed the whole can...frustrated. lol.




Yeah, it is difficult to beat electricity in a race to pull the plug before something is damaged.


----------



## hypnos1

Wonder if anyone else has noticed significant improvement over time with NOS 6AS7Gs...or is it confined to the (superb) GEC variants? With well over 100hrs now, what they are doing for my humble Little Dot MKIV SE (modded and with C3GSs as drivers) is beyond belief. As an added 'test' of my set-up's capabilities, I have just been listening to a remastered "Breakfast in America" by Supertramp, and once again have been blown away...things just keep getting better and better, and as the C3GSs have been in for much longer than the GECs I can only put it down to further burn-in of the latter. I now most definitely do NOT regret the $$$$ I had to pay for them NOS!
  
 The mind boggles as to what they will do for the Feliks-Audio project, which is now set (hopefully) for working production units by the end of October...CAN'T WAIT!!


----------



## gibosi

I thought some of you would like to see a nice Electronic Enterprises 6080.  Picked it up for US$7.49.


----------



## GrindingThud

gibosi Nice tube! What's printed on the top?


----------



## Ultrainferno

Nice find!


----------



## gibosi

There is no printing or etching on the top, just a nice shiny mirror-like getter splash. And nothing on the glass or the base to indicate the original manufacturer. But of course, I don't think there is any doubt...


----------



## GrindingThud

gibosi said:


> But of course, I don't think there is any doubt...


----------



## rosgr63

Very nice tubes for sure


----------



## punit

Very nice gibosi looks similar to my fav 6080 , the Bendix 6080 Graphite Plates. Does it sound similar ?


----------



## gibosi

punit said:


> Very nice gibosi looks similar to my fav 6080 , the Bendix 6080 Graphite Plates. Does it sound similar ?


 
  
 Well, my Electronic Enterprises 6080 is in fact a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates. To the best of my knowledge, no other manufacturer produced these tubes. However, about 10 pages ago, we saw pictures of at least 6 different constructions, I believe. Does anyone know if all these Bendix sound the same? I would guess, probably not....
  
 As for me, these are the only Bendix 6080's I have in my possession, so I can't say. Further, I believe my OTL is sitting on Glenn's workbench, not quite ready for prime time, so I can't really say much about how they sound in a proper amp. All I have been able to do is briefly run each tube as a driver to ensure that they light up and play.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> Well, my Electronic Enterprises 6080 is in fact a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates. To the best of my knowledge, no other manufacturer produced these tubes. However, about 10 pages ago, we saw pictures of at least 6 different constructions, I believe. Does anyone know if all these Bendix sound the same? I would guess, probably not....
> 
> As for me, these are the only Bendix 6080's I have in my possession, so I can't say. Further, I believe my OTL is sitting on Glenn's workbench, not quite ready for prime time, so I can't really say much about how they sound in a proper amp. All I have been able to do is briefly run each tube as a driver to ensure that they light up and play.


 
 Lucky you ,a Glenn amp congrats


----------



## Lorspeaker

such a clean looking handsome tube


----------



## JamieMcC

ah ha I did get a heads up on those tubes but the seller wanted $60 for shipping to the UK! A nice find if your US based.


----------



## gibosi

$60 to ship to Britain!? That is outrageous! But living in the US, I often see comparable shipping charges from Europe.....


----------



## kvtaco17

gibosi said:


> Well, my Electronic Enterprises 6080 is in fact a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates. To the best of my knowledge, no other manufacturer produced these tubes. However, about 10 pages ago, we saw pictures of at least 6 different constructions, I believe. Does anyone know if all these Bendix sound the same? I would guess, probably not....
> 
> As for me, these are the only Bendix 6080's I have in my possession, so I can't say. Further, *I believe my OTL is sitting on Glenn's workbench, not quite ready for prime time*, so I can't really say much about how they sound in a proper amp. All I have been able to do is briefly run each tube as a driver to ensure that they light up and play.


 
  
 So close, congrats!


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> punit said:
> 
> 
> > Very nice gibosi looks similar to my fav 6080 , the Bendix 6080 Graphite Plates. Does it sound similar ?
> ...


 
 Being made with 2 extra loctal sockets to be able to use the C3g driver


----------



## Badas

Hi,
  
 I'm having a few problems with a Russian Power Tubes 6H13C (see pics). LOL I noticed the first post says nothing special about this tube, however I do like some qualities of the sound.
  
 The Tubes are brand new and have a low volume level static whirling sound (through the headphones). Both tubes do it as it can go from one side to the other. The noise is not heard when music is playing and it does not raise in volume if I raise the volume control with no music playing. So it is a background noise.
  
 Is this what is referred to as a noisy tube?
  
 It has a spectacular electric blue glow on the side of glass when started up and I have noticed as the blue flares up and down it is the same as the noise through the headphones. After a hour or so the blue disappears and the noise is almost gone as well.
  
 I have also noticed it produces a very low level hum from the Woo WA22 amp itself as well. I understand this is common.
  
 I have been told by helpful others (they are probably rolling their eyes that I have asked again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) that I should just burn baby burn.
  
 Is this kind thing normal? Okay to use? For future reference is this the definition of a noisy tube.
  
 Thanks All.


----------



## john57

badas said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is this what is referred to as a noisy tube?
> 
> ...


 
  It is okay for a faint blue glow but not a spectacular electric blue glow. That might be a bad tube. I let others chime in.


----------



## Badas

john57 said:


> It is okay for a faint blue glow but not a spectacular electric blue glow. That might be a bad tube. I let others chime in.


 

 Thanks.
  
 On start up it is like a lighting show. It flashes up and down the glass. After a hour you get nothing. No blue at all.


----------



## john57

Even then you should not get a lighting show at startup. I would check the tube for gas.


----------



## Badas

john57 said:


> Even then you should not get a lighting show at startup. I would check the tube for gas.


 
  
 I've got 12 of them. I think I might just throw another in. I don't have a tube tester so no way to test for gas.
  
 The other glows blue on startup but doesn't really flash around. It produces the noise tho (however not as bad).


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> Thanks.
> 
> On start up it is like a lighting show. It flashes up and down the glass. After a hour you get nothing. No blue at all.


 
 i have those tubes i use them with a WA2 never noticed that .Hmmm.....


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> i have those tubes i use them with a WA2 never noticed that .Hmmm.....


 

 Maybe I got a bunch of bad tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 They all do it.
  
 Or maybe they just need really burning in. I got them in the original box with all the paper work attached. Obvious they have never been touched.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> Maybe I got a bunch of bad tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I remember that seller i did not get mine from him but the guy i got mine from didnt send me what was advertised ,you gotta watch does guys when you complain  they say please send back give you refund it takes long enough for them to get here. the hell with it i just dont buy from him again .A tester is always usefull but theres not always one available  .Hope for the best.


----------



## Skylab

badas said:


> Thanks.
> 
> On start up it is like a lighting show. It flashes up and down the glass. After a hour you get nothing. No blue at all.




I,would be concerned that this means the tubes are leaking, meaning they are not keeping a perfect vacuum. There may be enough barium on the getter flashing to keep creating a vacuum for a while, but if that getter flashing starts to change from silver to white you know you have a problem.


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> I remember that seller i did not get mine from him but the guy i got mine from didnt send me what was advertised ,you gotta watch does guys when you complain  they say please send back give you refund it takes long enough for them to get here. the hell with it i just dont buy from him again .A tester is always usefull but theres not always one available  .Hope for the best.


 
  
 Thanks. You have been very helpful. I appreciate it.
  
 Quote:


skylab said:


> I,would be concerned that this means the tubes are leaking, meaning they are not keeping a perfect vacuum. There may be enough barium on the getter flashing to keep creating a vacuum for a while, but of that getter flashing starts to change from silver to while you know you have a problem.


 
  
 Yes. You kinda make sense there. Loss of vacuum. It might be why the blue fires around the glass as well. Sometimes it is right around the tube and sometimes just one side. It moves rapidly and often looks like flame flickers as well. It is a nice light show. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Stuff it. I'm going to toss them. Life is too short for bad tubes. I have 3 other sets of 6080 power tubes (2 Brimar and 1 GE) plus a set of Tung Sol 7236. I will just use those.


----------



## Lorspeaker

badas said:


> Thanks.
> 
> On start up it is like a lighting show. It flashes up and down the glass. After a hour you get nothing. No blue at all.


 
  
  

  
 think it is just the weather in NZ.... "P


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> think it is just the weather in NZ.... "P


 
  
  





 That's what it looks like but electric blue. Dusting of my Brimar 6080's as we speak to replace.
  
 It is a pity I liked the sound and looks of the Russian tube.


----------



## Skylab

Do you know anyone with a tube tester? It seems a shame to just toss them without checking them to see what's up.


----------



## gibosi

I agree. I think it is a bit premature to just toss them...
  
 Look for a local musical instrument store that sells guitars and guitar amps. Chances are they employ someone who repairs guitar amps or they can refer you to someone who does. And as guitar amps still use tubes, they have tube testers.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> Do you know anyone with a tube tester? It seems a shame to just toss them without checking them to see what's up.


 

 No I don't. Kinda new to the tube business. I have only owned my Woo for a month.
  
 I might chuck them to one side until I get a tube tester. I think eventually I will need one.


----------



## Lorspeaker

This russian tube worked just fine/normal on the DV336se though...nothing lit up the sky...humppph


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> This russian tube worked just fine/normal on the DV336se though...nothing lit up the sky...humppph


 

 Yeah another member commented a while ago on a thread. Can't remember which one. He used on the WA22 and said it was great.
  
 As I said I have 12. Maybe I will just roll them one by one. I might get a few sets.
  
 Only one does the light show so far.
  
 The other one still glow slightly blue for a while. Nothing spectacular like the light show one. It doesn't flash just a still steady blue glow on the glass for a while. It still has noise through the headphones tho.
  
 Could the noise reduce over time?


----------



## john57

I wonder if the seller send you a box of marginal tubes. I never had any issues with the Russian tubes like that. What I do not like is tubes that pop.


----------



## Xenophon

I also have a couple sets of those Russian tubes, actually like the sound of them and never experienced your problem.  The blue flashes are a sure sign of an incomplete vacuum.  If it's air that leaked in the getter will indeed turn white due to oxidation as Skylab said, once that happens, toss them out or serious fireworks will start.  If it's another gas in there (no idea how/why) then the getter might not actually change and apart from the flashes you might be ok. 
  
 Enjoy the TS 7236, very nice tubes imo.


----------



## JamieMcC

I've had a couple of tubes with the blue aurora and always thought it was caused by a excess of gas in a new tube burning off as it soon disappeared with use. If they are not making loud popping or crackling noises whilst running I would be tempted to just leave them on for a couple of days straight. If you try a google image search plenty of examples turn up see if anything matches what you are experiencing.


----------



## Oskari

http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Tubes/blue_glow.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=blue+glow+in+tubes


----------



## rosgr63

Very interesting Oskari.
  
 I too thought it was a sign of a bad tube and I would discard it.


----------



## john57

Like I said previous a faint blue glow can be normal depending on what tube and amp being used. I have seen the blue glow when the room is quite dark. A bright blue glow is not normal especially when noise is being generated at the output. A faint blue glow usually stays that way when tube is in use.
  
_"All power valves will exhibit some blue glow. That's a florescent effect caused by electrons striking the ions in the inert gasses that exist within a valve's bottle (i.e. argon) as they flow from the cathode sleeve to the plate._
_When the bottle starts to lose vacuum overtime, this glow may become more pronounced. On these valves the valve is said to be "gassy"._


----------



## Dogmatrix

I recently purchased a 274 from Emission Labs , included in the box was an information sheet
 Here is what they say about the blue light
  
 "Some occasional blue glow effects will disappear during burn-in , or may stay. This is not gas, and it is normal."
  
 As one of the last tube makers left I think you can trust their word
  
 My own experience follows this advice , sometimes it goes away sometimes it stays but it has never been a problem
 Noise is similar often it will fade away with use , generally I will give a noisy tube 100 hours and if it persists it is destroyed 
 The only condition I will not tolerate in a functional tube is the arc , that is a bright blue or white flash quite violent in nature and often accompanied by a loud crack . I believe this condition to signal imminent failure by dead short which can cause serious damage and is best avoided


----------



## Badas

john57 said:


> I wonder if the seller send you a box of marginal tubes. I never had any issues with the Russian tubes like that. What I do not like is tubes that pop.


 
  
  


john57 said:


> Like I said previous a faint blue glow can be normal depending on what tube and amp being used. I have seen the blue glow when the room is quite dark. A bright blue glow is not normal especially when noise is being generated at the output. A faint blue glow usually stays that way when tube is in use.
> 
> _"All power valves will exhibit some blue glow. That's a florescent effect caused by electrons striking the ions in the inert gasses that exist within a valve's bottle (i.e. argon) as they flow from the cathode sleeve to the plate._
> _When the bottle starts to lose vacuum overtime, this glow may become more pronounced. On these valves the valve is said to be "gassy"._


 
  
 Well I think you a right. I think I got sold a box of reject tubes or seconds.
  
 Update: I decided last night to continue to roll all 12 tubes that I had to see if I could find some good ones.
 The two I had in were fairly bad. Both flicker blue. Both have a lot of noise. So they were out.
 The next two produced one terrible and one perfect. The perfect had zero blue glow and zero noise. I was happy with that one it gave me a reference.
 From there I started changing one at a time. Disastrous, one after the other was terrible. Some were like laser light shows. Flickering electric blue everywhere. Noise through the cans was awful. Hum from the Woo as well. I had four tubes to go and I was almost reduced to tears. It just sounded that bad. So out of 8 I got 1 good tube. No good to me as I need 2.
 So I thought stuff this throw in my Brimar 6080 power tubes. F#ck these were terrible as well. No blue glow but the popping and noise through the cans was extreme. By this stage I started wondering if there was something wrong with the Woo???
 Lastly I stuck my TS 7236 tubes in and I thought I could hear noise but I was getting worn out and thought it must be placebo. When I say noise nothing like the other tubes. I think my ears had gone and I was just hearing things. So I went to bed exhausted.
 Got up this morning and fired it up with the TS 7236 tubes and they are dead silent.
  
 I have no faith in the Russian tube. Really think I got sold rubbish. So I will toss them away. Brimar is no better so they will get tossed as well. Nervously that only leaves me one set of power tubes. From now I think I will just by the TS 7236 tubes from Woo. Or someone else said the TS 5998 is nice as well.
  
 Picture below of the glow effect. Best I could capture. More intense by eye.


----------



## john57

I so sorry about your experience. Bad tubes could also damage the amp or blow out a headphone. I had a rectifier tube that arc over and blew out my headphone and a few resistors in the amp.  Just that one time. Woo amps are easier  to work on than other makes. I find that for me the Russian tubes that work good at first will usually stay that way. Popping is more common for me.  However, I have no further problems with any of my four tube amps I have in the last two years or so.


----------



## Lorspeaker

wow...shocking, russian fireworks. 
 I had an arcing in one of my new tubes...and my beloved pro900 went dead. 
 war is such...there will be casualties.


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> wow...shocking, russian fireworks.
> I had an arcing in one of my new tubes...and my beloved pro900 went dead.
> war is such...there will be casualties.




Well I consider myself lucky then that it didn't take out my one month old Woo.


----------



## Ultrainferno

How much did you pay for that box of Russian tubes? $5? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I have to say my russian tubes work perfectly and they sound pretty good too
  
 So far I have had only one 5998 giving me a fireworks and pop show. No harm was done though.
 I did have two 5Z4G tubes arcing over in another amp though.


----------



## JamieMcC

Yep a same here with a TS 5998 fire works with bits pinging all round the tube luckily no phones plugged in.


----------



## larcenasb

Just bought a pair of Sylvania Gold Brand GB6080s on eBay for $18, finally got lucky 
  
 In anticipation, I was wondering what others think of this tube.
  
 Found these quotes during my online research (which is what prompted me to buy them):
"Unlike other 6080 tubes that have very tight sound, this is more relaxed. Compared to other tubes in 6as7 family, this is the most liquid tube." - Nikolay Sokratov
  
"...The music just flows out of it – artists feel like they sing their heart out – you want to continue listening and listening... [though] not as detailed as Bendix 6080."
  
 Can anyone share similar or contrasting thoughts? Especially compared to the Tung-Sol 7236, as that's what I am using at the moment. I'm looking for a more musical (less clinical) sound. Thanks so much.


----------



## Xenophon

larcenasb said:


> Just bought a pair of Sylvania Gold Brand GB6080s on eBay for $18, finally got lucky
> 
> In anticipation, I was wondering what others think of this tube.
> 
> ...


 

 Not an easy question as a lot of factors intervene in the sound you actually hear, in order of importance imo and assuming your hearing is good (not a given after age 30):
 - Headphone 
 - Amplifier topology
 - Terminology (what exactly constitutes 'tight' sound vs 'relaxed'?)
 - Tubes
 - DAC used
 - (for the believers, which I'm not) the cables and interconnects.
  
 For any meaningful comparison you'd almost need to find someone with the same setup.  And many 'liquid' or 'smooth/lush' sounding amps simply sound so because they're not optimised to work with the tubes that are in them (or worse, sloppily designed, you'd be amazed).  It's not because it produces sound that the tube is working in its optimum area of linear operation.  That produces effects which you might like or not, the electrons don't care.    Fwiw, on my setup I find the TS 7236 a bit more detailed and 'airy' vs the average (not graphite plate) 6080's I own.  I like them for solo/small ensemble violin music  for instance.  What type of music do you listen to?
  
 Anyway, the point imo is that the tubes are just a small part of the equation and take second seat to many other elements that determine the sound.


----------



## larcenasb

You're definitely right about the range of contributing factors, Xenophon. I'll try to contextualize a bit. I use AKG K612 cans and a Bottlehead Crack + Speedball. I actually prefer less gain, so I can turn up the volume more and not have it get harsh so quickly.
  
 Here are some impressions _with *my* aforementioned setup_:
  
 TS 7236 + RCA 12AU7 clear top = too bright
 TS 7236 + Sylvania 12AU7 grey plate = too bright
 TS 7236 + RCA 12AU7 black plates 1950s = mids are mellow, treble still too bright (lol, I'm picky)
 TS 7236 + RCA VT-231 grey glass = creamy, but the treble extension is still too much for me
 TS 7236 + Ken Rad VT-231 black glass = amazing bass, but thin sounding mids, treble sounds restrained now
 TS 7236 + Mullard 12AU7 [date code: k61] = more body in the mids and musicality, not bright; my favorite driver
 RCA 6080 + RCA 12AU7 clear top = doesn't seem bright anymore (it seems it's the gain of the 7236 that tips over the AKG's treble)
 RCA 6080 + Mullard 12AU7 [date code: k61] = very easy to listen to, musical; regardless, the sound is not as good as with the 7236 if that makes sense...
  
 To elaborate on the last impression there, I care more about musicality and liquid, warm, full-bodied, colored sound than clinical perfection. From what I've read about the Sylvania GB6080, it in combination with my Mullard 12AU7 seems like it'll be a good fit.
  
 The music I listen to is: live, acoustic, classical, classic rock -- and I also watch movies with my headphones. So the spacious quality of the K612 isn't something I'll compromise.


----------



## Cyberia Knight

I have recently bought a B&K 606 tube tester,I have some odd readings and I was hoping someone could help.
  
 I have several pairs on 6AS7G and 6080 tubes that test without any problems so I think the tester is working.
  
 A pair of 6AS7G Zaerix test No shorts / No Grid Emissions / Quality 85/85 and 86/86 meter holds steady
  
 A pair of 6080 CV2984 Mullard test No shorts / No Grid Emissions / Quality 83/83 and 82/82 meter holds steady
  
 I have recently got hold of a pair of Philips 6080WC
  
 The first tube tests - No shorts / No Grid Emissions / Quality 86/87 holds steady.
 The second tube tests - No shorts / No Grid Emissions / Quality 82/83 the the meter needle drops away quite fast on both sections.
 However when listening to them I can't detect the volume dropping on one channel.
  
 Has anyone got any idea what the meter reading is showing ?
  
 I have also just got a pair of National 6080 and both tubes show odd readings.
  
 The first tube the short light glows very bright instantly when the tube plug in the tester, and the book says don't do any more tests dis-guard the tube.
 The second tube tests - No shorts / No Grid Emissions / Quality 90/70 the meter holds steady on section 1 but the needle drops away fast on sections 2 of the tube.
  
 So this tube looks like is has one good section and one poor section, but I haven't tried this in my amp yet.
  
 So the main Question is when the meter goes up to a peak reading but then starts drops back down quite fast what is the meter showing, and is the tube bad ?
  
  
 Just for the record  amp is a DarkVoice 337 and my headphones are Sennheiser HD650


----------



## john57

If any tube tester shows any shorts throw it right away. Do not continue testing the tube. You could ruin the tester by keeping the shorted tube in the socket. Second if the meter drifts downward it is a indication that the tube is nearing its end of life. You will not notice a change of volume until the tube is near exhaustion or the tube can start to sound "soft."


----------



## Badas

Is this the Sletvana Russian Tube? Kinda looks like it.
  
 I purchased a few tubes in the weekend to replace my Russian blue glow fireworks tubes.
  
 I purchased two sets of RCA 6AS7G's. One set with chrome tops (look super clean) $60. One set without (same tubes but with different colour logo's) $11.50.
  
 One set of SYLVANIA 6AS7G's (look great) $40 and one set of Raytheon 6AS7G's (these looked ultra clean and new) $46.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> Is this the Sletvana Russian Tube? Kinda looks like it.
> 
> I purchased a few tubes in the weekend to replace my Russian blue glow fireworks tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 Usually russian tubes have a double saucer getter at bottom of tubes like so or similar


----------



## Badas

Yea


mikelap said:


> Usually russian tubes have a double saucer getter at bottom of tubes like so or similar


 
  
 Yeah. I was looking for that also. I can't see them in the pictures. I bet they are just behind the chrome in that pic I posted
  
 Kinda makes me suspicious tho everything else looks like Russian Sevetlana.
  
 I had a moment of weakness and ordered a set. I will find out soon. If they are it will be interesting if these perform any better than my last disasters as they were made for another company.
 Here is the box picture.


----------



## Skylab

john57 said:


> If any tube tester shows any shorts throw it right away. Do not continue testing the tube. You could ruin the tester by keeping the shorted tube in the socket. Second if the meter drifts downward it is a indication that the tube is nearing its end of life. You will not notice a change of volume until the tube is near exhaustion or the tube can start to sound "soft."




Excellent post John. I have a 606, and it gets it right. When the meter drops down quickly, the tube is not going to last all that long. Might sound fine until it does though, so if it has no shorts, no reason not to use it if it sounds OK. 




badas said:


> Is this the Sletvana Russian Tube? Kinda looks like it.




Zaerix was a rebrander only and this included lots of Russian tubes, and that one sure looks Russian.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> Zaerix was a rebrander only and this included lots of Russian tubes, and that one sure looks Russian.




Ohh bugger. So I was stupid enough to buy another set.


----------



## Xenophon

badas said:


> Ohh bugger. So I was stupid enough to buy another set.


 

 Don't panic (yet), give'm a try.  I own several sets of Russian tubes and hey hold up quite nicely, certainly given the price.


----------



## Badas

xenophon said:


> Don't panic (yet), give'm a try.  I own several sets of Russian tubes and hey hold up quite nicely, certainly given the price.


 

 I've got tube saves on all my tube connections. So I might as well give them a try. Just hope they don't do the laser blue light show that my other Russian tubes produced.


----------



## Skylab

With a little luck, Zaerix weeded out the bad ones for you


----------



## Badas

I just won these:
  

  
 I kinda recognised them as a Chatham Bendix design. So I thought they were worth a go. Got them at $40.
  
 My other purchases over the weekend. I really like the looks of the Raytheons.
  




  
 Lastly the Russian tubes. I hope they are a bit better. I actually liked their sound. Just my last lot were noisy as hell and the blue fireworks.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I bid on those bendix but I didn't want to go higher as they are used and the pins looked fairly "used".Well that and I have 10 already 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Congrats


----------



## Badas

ultrainferno said:


> I bid on those bendix but I didn't want to go higher as they are used and the pins looked fairly "used".Well that and I have 10 already
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good spotting. I didn't notice the pins.
  
 Yeah. I new they were used but I think we all get a bit hanged up on having NOS.
 I really just got them to trial. See how they compare.
  
 Is there a good way to treat / clean pins before using? Can someone help me with that?


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Nothing fancy i used a simple wire brush.


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Nothing fancy i used a simple wire brush.


 

 What just give them a rub with it or something? Do they need a coat of oil?
  
 I heard something somewhere about using a eraser?


----------



## Cyberia Knight

badas said:


> Ohh bugger. So I was stupid enough to buy another set.


 
  
 I have 2 sets of Zaerix tubes just like the pictures posted on this thread, both sets seem well balanced, and I have not had any problems with them at all.
 To my ears they sound pretty good for a basic 6AS7G tube but I may have just been lucky, lets hope your next set are good ones.


----------



## Cyberia Knight

skylab said:


> Excellent post John. I have a 606, and it gets it right. When the meter drops down quickly, the tube is not going to last all that long. Might sound fine until it does though, so if it has no shorts, no reason not to use it if it sounds OK.


 
  
 Thanks John57 and Skylab for the fast reply and comments on the test results I am seeing on the B&K606, it all make sense now.


----------



## Badas

cyberia knight said:


> I have 2 sets of Zaerix tubes just like the pictures posted on this thread, both sets seem well balanced, and I have not had any problems with them at all.
> To my ears they sound pretty good for a basic 6AS7G tube but I may have just been lucky, lets hope your next set are good ones.


 
  
 Cool. Thanks for that. I will certainly give them a blast.
  
 I just have to think I got a bad batch of Russian tubes last time. Pity I bought 12.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> Cool. Thanks for that. I will certainly give them a blast.
> 
> I just have to think I got a bad batch of Russian tubes last time. Pity I bought 12.


 
 So far ive always been lucky with my Russian tubes and i have them in 6AS7, 6SL7 AND 6SN7 types .Luck of the draw i guess .


----------



## Badas

Damn these cheap Brimars are mellow and deep. Really good if you want to tame some brightness. Most definetly rolling some treble. Really good bass impact.

System is probably to mellow now. As I have the RCA Greyglass in the system. I will roll them out for the clear glass RCA and see what happens.


----------



## Badas

I recieved my first set of RCA 6AS7G's. Very nice sound.

Quick impressions.

Nice slam, very neutral with a slight mid-range bump. Surprised at treble detail. Very nice and controlled. Will probably be my go to tube now. 

Unfortunately one tube looks very used and has a background hiss. Is the hiss noise common for this tube? Will it have a chance of clearing? The other is clear.

I have many more sets coming to try as well.


----------



## Xenophon

badas said:


> I recieved my first set of RCA 6AS7G's. Very nice sound.
> 
> Quick impressions.
> 
> ...


 

 If they are NOS then it's normal that they hiss/pop/crackle during the first 24 hours of use.  In my experience, if they don't settle down within that period they never will.  It occasionally happens, even with tubes that test perfectly good.  Did you purchase them as 'used' or 'NOS'?  
  
 On a buying spree, are we?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Take it easy, yo need to 'get to know' the various flavours.


----------



## Badas

xenophon said:


> If they are NOS then it's normal that they hiss/pop/crackle during the first 24 hours of use.  In my experience, if they don't settle down within that period they never will.  It occasionally happens, even with tubes that test perfectly good.  Did you purchase them as 'used' or 'NOS'?
> 
> On a buying spree, are we?     Take it easy, yo need to 'get to know' the various flavours.




Yeah. I just checked the auction. It says one was NOS NIB (I don't know what NIB is?). The other is used. They were my cheapest purchase and I really only bought to test the RCA's. Then got impatient and bought 4 more nicer sets. 

Yeah. I have purchase 22 tubes in the last week. Bids on many more. I need to stop. :rolleyes:


----------



## Xenophon

NOS= New Old Stock = Old tube -fabrication- that has never been used.
 NIB= New In Box = typically a recently made tube, such as the Russian ones, normally never used.
  
 But obviously everything stands or falls with the reliability, honesty and knowledge of the seller, which is why purchasing on eBay can be a minefield.  I've purchased 5998 tubes that were sold by a guy who didn't have any experience with tubes and mentioned that he had no way of testing them and were sold 'as is', no warranty, no returns.  Obviously this translated in a low asking price.  Tubes were fine, only later did I learn that he had purchased the entire contents of a military supply bunker and that there were 100's of tubes, all NOS, patiently in storage for decades.  Unfortunately I only grabbed one pair of the 5998.
  
 Otoh I've been burned a couple of times too, which is why reputation is everything in the tube business.


----------



## G600

NIB = new in box


----------



## Badas

What is this?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Awesome-1942-Sylvania-45-Small-Power-Triode-Audio-Power-Tube/111497948745?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D333008%26algo%3DRIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122152441%26meid%3D7b86916d0ab049ae8d6d71e49095a5b3%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D20140122152441%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D331357527306
  
 Looks so cool. I wonder if anyone can use it???


----------



## Skylab

Not in your Woo amp, no.


----------



## Xenophon

It's a 45, used mainly in SET amps due to operating characteristics.  Comes in a couple of flavors, you have the shape in your picture but mostly the globe shaped ones are sought after, such as depicted here:  https://www.tubedepot.com/products/45-triode-globe-shape-rca-cunningham
  
 In SET configuration I believe these produce about 2W.  People wax lyrical about 'magical' mids with these but I dunno, to me they sound rather like...well, like a properly run tube should sound but nothing out of the oridinary.  Also, they're becoming hard to find and very costly, which is a reason why I'd avoid them, there's enough lunacy around as it is 
  
 But as Skylab said, you can't use them in your Woo; if you feel like it's time to get your hands dirty, here's a nice project using 45's:  http://tubelab.com/prototypes/simple-45/ (and if you know your way around elelectricity and feel Lucky, check out 833SE build pages on that site, that's a nice tube too, pity you have to run it at about 2kV).


----------



## rosgr63

The De Forest Audion 45 and Raytheon ER 245 Box Plates sound better, but your amp must be designed for 45's.


----------



## Badas

I seem to have no luck on tubes. As far as go 6AS7G's go I purchased 12 of the Russian Tubes that turned out to be fireworks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I then got some cheap RCA's that one turned out to be noisy. Not really annoyed about these as they were cheap.
  
 Then by accident ordered another set that turned out to be Russian again branded as Zaerix.
  
 Now I was really looking forward to these and now feel disappointed. I purchased these at a very fair price and they were advertised as a matched pair. Am I being fussy as they are very different.
  

  
 See the internals are a different structure. Certainly at the top and bottle size.
  

  

  
 They don't look to bad in my amp as they a spread apart. The sound is similar to my ears. The shorter one has a slight background noise hum. Not from the amp it comes through the headphones. Is this acceptable or should I contact the seller?


----------



## kazsud

At least they weren't GEC tubes....


----------



## Badas

kazsud said:


> At least they weren't GEC tubes....


 

 True. However would you except them and use. Am I being to fussy????


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> True. However would you except them and use. Am I being to fussy????


 
 I have noisy tubes usually when i dont touch them i dont hear anything so good enough for me unless when you see fireworks well that's another story so far out of 200+ tubes 3 or 4 of them went bad and a few i dropped luckily the cheap ones . Its like baseball you always keep 2 hands on the ball i know that now lol  .


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> I have noisy tubes usually when i dont touch them i dont hear anything so good enough for me unless when you see fireworks well that's another story so far out of 200+ tubes 3 or 4 of them went bad and a few i dropped luckily the cheap ones . Its like baseball you always keep 2 hands on the ball i know that now lol  .


 

 I'm not worried about the hum from one tube.
  
 What I am not happy with is that they are two different tubes. Internally and tube size. They were sold as matched.


----------



## kazsud

badas said:


> True. However would you except them and use. Am I being to fussy????




Mine got loose 2 weeks after I got them so I couldn't return them. I ended up super gluing then and they sound fine 80% of the time.


----------



## Badas

kazsud said:


> Mine got loose 2 weeks after I got them so I couldn't return them. I ended up super gluing then and they sound fine 80% of the time.


 

 Hi,
  
 I don't think I got my point across properly. They are in good condition. Pins okay, Bases okay, Cosmetics okay. They are just different tubes.
  
 Take a look at this pic:
  

  
 See the internals are different and the glass is taller on the left tube. The whole top section on the left tube is different. Bigger and different construction on top.
  
 Would you consider these as matched tubes?


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> What I am not happy with is that they are two different tubes. Internally and tube size. They were sold as matched.


 
  
 I would agree. One is Russian and the other American, so not at all what I would call a "matched pair".
  
 However, the vendor was going by the brand printed on the base, so in his eyes, he was selling two "Sylvanias". But of course, the lesson here is you cannot trust what is printed on the base. It is necessary to inspect the photo's very carefully in order to ensure that you actually get what you expect.
  
 No you are not being fussy. This is not acceptable.


----------



## kazsud

My gec are the same way but seller said the signal measurements were the same. Which they do sound the same.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> I would agree. One is Russian and the other American, so not at all what I would call a "matched pair".
> 
> However, the vendor was going by the brand printed on the base, so in his eyes, he was selling two "Sylvanias". But of course, the lesson here is you cannot trust what is printed on the base. It is necessary to inspect the photo's very carefully in order to ensure that you actually get what you expect.
> 
> No you are not being fussy. This is not acceptable.


 

 I agree. At a first glance they look exactly the same. It was the different bottle size that made me look closer. So easy mistake to make.
 I have contacted the seller nicely and asked if he has two more odds he could sell me so I can make up two matching pairs.
 We will see.
  
 Here is the pic I purchased from. Very hard to tell that they are different.


----------



## Xenophon

badas said:


> I'm not worried about the hum from one tube.
> 
> What I am not happy with is that they are two different tubes. Internally and tube size. They were sold as matched.


 

 I agree, matched pair in my book presupposes identical construction *and* close measurements.  BTW:  never pay extra for 'matched pairs' of NOS tubes; if you don't know how/with what equipment they were measured the values don't mean a thing.  The hum is indeed a different story, occasionally you get one that never quietens down.  Be very careful with eBay, scams abound, even from some 'established' sellers.  If you're bidding on an expensive tube it's a good idea to post a link here and ask people's opinion (at the small risk of having them snatched away).  And don't get trapped by the lure of GEC's before you gain some experience; not all ways to audio nirvana pass via them (and a lot of paths leading to a dent in a bank account do).


----------



## Badas

xenophon said:


> I agree, matched pair in my book presupposes identical construction *and* close measurements.  BTW:  never pay extra for 'matched pairs' of NOS tubes; if you don't know how/with what equipment they were measured the values don't mean a thing.  The hum is indeed a different story, occasionally you get one that never quietens down.  Be very careful with eBay, scams abound, even from some 'established' sellers.  If you're bidding on an expensive tube it's a good idea to post a link here and ask people's opinion (at the small risk of having them snatched away).  And don't get trapped by the lure of GEC's before you gain some experience; not all ways to audio nirvana pass via them (and a lot of paths leading to a dent in a bank account do).


 

 Thanks. That is great advice.
  
 If the seller doesn't come up with a solution I think I will send back for a refund. I don't want to use odd tubes.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> I would agree. One is Russian and the other American, so not at all what I would call a "matched pair".


 
  
 I don't think the Russians were involved here.


----------



## Badas

oskari said:


> I don't think the Russians were involved here.


 
  
 No. Not likely. They are both stamped Made in USA. I think they are just from two different dates. Possibly two different factories. They are very different in construction in the top area.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Send em back


----------



## Skylab

oskari said:


> I don't think the Russians were involved here.




Right you are. Both tubes are US Sylvaniia. But I do agree they're somewhat different construction. I would never sell as matched. 

Badas of you really want more 6AS7 tubes you should PM me.


----------



## gunnerwholelife

Which is the latest price/performance cheap tube ?
 What about those russian 6n13s/c ?


----------



## Badas

I just rolled in the Tung-Sol 6080WB (received yesterday). Based on the Chatham Bendix 6080WB Graphite tubes.
  
 Weird constructed tube. Very nice sound. Nice treble. Not as good as my Tung-Sol 7236 however very close.
  
 I'm starting to realize that the Tung-Sol 7236's sold by Woo raise the bar very high. Best sounding power tubes I own so far.


----------



## kazsud

badas said:


> I just rolled in the Tung-Sol 6080WB (received yesterday). Based on the Chatham Bendix 6080WB Graphite tubes.
> 
> Weird constructed tube. Very nice sound. Nice treble. Not as good as my Tung-Sol 7236 however very close.
> 
> I'm starting to realize that the Tung-Sol 7236's sold by Woo raise the bar very high. Best sounding power tubes I own so far.




Wait till you get GEC 6080 & 6AS7G.


----------



## Badas

kazsud said:


> Wait till you get GEC 6080 & 6AS7G.


 

 Not going to happen. I can't afford those prices. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Got to draw the line somewhere.
  
 According to ebay my RCA chrome tops and Raytheon 6AS7g's have been delivered. More to try.


----------



## punit

badas said:


> I just rolled in the Tung-Sol 6080WB (received yesterday). Based on the Chatham Bendix 6080WB Graphite tubes.
> 
> Weird constructed tube. Very nice sound. Nice treble. Not as good as my Tung-Sol 7236 however very close.
> 
> I'm starting to realize that the Tung-Sol 7236's sold by Woo raise the bar very high. Best sounding power tubes I own so far.


 

 My Chatham 6080 GP needed about 100 hrs to settle in. After that It has better sound stage & mids compared to TS 7236. But TS 7236 has better bass, quite Phat. IMO. This is on the HD 800.
  
 I have found that diff tubes react differently to different HP's. A tube combination which sounds nice with HD 800 , sounds quite lean (mids & lower mids recessed) on T1. For example You may find that if you change from a LCD 3 to HD 800  you may prefer the Chatham over the TS.


----------



## Badas

punit said:


> My Chatham 6080 GP needed about 100 hrs to settle in. After that It has better sound stage & mids compared to TS 7236. But TS 7236 has better bass, quite Phat. IMO. This is on the HD 800.
> 
> I have found that diff tubes react differently to different HP's. A tube combination which sounds nice with HD 800 , sounds quite lean (mids & lower mids recessed) on T1. For example You may find that if you change from a LCD 3 to HD 800  you may prefer the Chatham over the TS.


 

 These were a used pair. So they were burnt in. They are very good. I just think the Tung-Sol's 7236 had the edge. The Tung-Sol 7236's have a very fast pace tho. Almost SS. Not really what I like. I think it is their low down slam that I like.
  
 Anyhow the 6080's are out. Boxed up and notes written for future use, RCA chrome tops 6AS7G's are now in.


----------



## Xenophon

The sound can be endlessly tuned and is difficult to compare in detail between amps as many of them have slightly different operating points, vastly different topologies and as Punit remarked, the headphones also result in major differences (not to mention the hearing of the user).  Therefor it's hard to 'objectively' compare even the same tube between different setups.  That said, my favourites (in descending order) are also the TS 7236, on par with the 5998 and followed by the various graphite plate 6080's.  With my classical music I like a fast decay, detailed and airy sound that's tonally quite neutral and with my HD-800 the 7236 give me exactly that, certainly with my relatively -for a tube amp- neutral/ss sounding DV 337.  It's all a matter of taste.  Pity my HE-6 can't be powered to its full potential coupled with the DV.


----------



## hypnos1

xenophon said:


> The sound can be endlessly tuned and is difficult to compare in detail between amps as many of them have slightly different operating points, vastly different topologies and as Punit remarked, the headphones also result in major differences (not to mention the hearing of the user).  Therefor it's hard to 'objectively' compare even the same tube between different setups.  That said, my favourites (in descending order) are also the TS 7236, on par with the 5998 and followed by the various graphite plate 6080's.  With my classical music I like a fast decay, detailed and airy sound that's tonally quite neutral and with my HD-800 the 7236 give me exactly that, certainly with my relatively -for a tube amp- neutral/ss sounding DV 337.  It's all a matter of taste.  Pity my HE-6 can't be powered to its full potential coupled with the DV.


 
  
 Hi Xenophon.
  
 I notice you make no mention of the GEC 6AS7G variants - I have found them quite sublime, with a pair of C3gSs driving them in the very modest Little Dot MKIV SE (what they will bring to the imminent Feliks-Audio 'Elise' I cannot even imagine!).
  
 Have you had the chance to try the GECs at all?...


----------



## Ultrainferno

I prefer the bendix over the GEC 6AS7G. I only have a couple of GECs though, so I hardly use them


----------



## Xenophon

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Xenophon.
> 
> I notice you make no mention of the GEC 6AS7G variants - I have found them quite sublime, with a pair of C3gSs driving them in the very modest Little Dot MKIV SE (what they will bring to the imminent Feliks-Audio 'Elise' I cannot even imagine!).
> 
> Have you had the chance to try the GECs at all?...


 

 Not really; I mean, I did audition them at a friend's place for about half an hour but that's just too short (and in another amp, I didn't bring my headphones etc etc).  My honest impression was that they sounded nice but I'd really have to hear them with a couple of music pieces I use as reference, on my own gear, longer period, alone....to say anything really worthwhile about them.  Based on what I heard: nice tubes but even if I'd know for sure that they'd surpass my 7236/5998 (which I honestly don't know) then still I'd consider them to be on the wrong side of the price/quality optimum for me but of course others are free to differ.  
  
 Personal opinion valid only for me:  for a couple of good technical reasons the 6AS7/6080 family are very popular with headphone tube amps but if you're prepared to tinker with output transformers, roll your own, study tube characteristics and run simulations then there's an entire universe of other tubes available, some of which also sound really, really nice but cost next to nothing because very few people use them (sometimes for good reasons such as temperatures running up to 400 centigrade or very high operating voltages)...so for me there are other pastures to graze in, so to speak.
  
 But if someone wishes to purchase the GEC 6AS7 and likes them:  happy for them!  Just make sure to get them from a really reputable source.


----------



## hypnos1

xenophon said:


> Not really; I mean, I did audition them at a friend's place for about half an hour but that's just too short (and in another amp, I didn't bring my headphones etc etc).  My honest impression was that they sounded nice but I'd really have to hear them with a couple of music pieces I use as reference, on my own gear, longer period, alone....to say anything really worthwhile about them.  Based on what I heard: nice tubes but even if I'd know for sure that they'd surpass my 7236/5998 (which I honestly don't know) then still I'd consider them to be on the wrong side of the price/quality optimum for me but of course others are free to differ.
> 
> Personal opinion valid only for me:  for a couple of good technical reasons the 6AS7/6080 family are very popular with headphone tube amps but if you're prepared to tinker with output transformers, roll your own, study tube characteristics and run simulations then there's an entire universe of other tubes available, some of which also sound really, really nice but cost next to nothing because very few people use them (sometimes for good reasons such as temperatures running up to 400 centigrade or very high operating voltages)...so for me there are other pastures to graze in, so to speak.
> 
> But if someone wishes to purchase the GEC 6AS7 and likes them:  happy for them!  Just make sure to get them from a really reputable source.


 
  
 Yep...to find good, reliable ones at a reasonable price sure is quite a feat, to say the least! Mind you, it looks like the same can be said for a pair of TS 7236?...too many fans of these and the 5998, methinks...


----------



## Badas

hypnos1 said:


> Yep...to find good, reliable ones at a reasonable price sure is quite a feat, to say the least! Mind you, it looks like the same can be said for a pair of TS 7236?...too many fans of these and the 5998, methinks...




Agreed. They are all getting too expensive. For my wallet anyway. I would really like to try the TS 5998, just not paying $400 for them.

That is why I'm exploring average 6AS7G options. However not to much success there either. Best so far is the RCA chrome top. However one tube gets noisy from time to time. If I don't find good sets of these I will be buying more 7236's from Woo.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I missed a GEC this week as I wasn't around. £60 ish and curved base.


----------



## hypnos1

nic rhodes said:


> I missed a GEC this week as I wasn't around. £60 ish and curved base.


 
  
 ...Curved base?...If that still had a good life left in it I think I would have shot myself, lol!


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> ...Curved base?...If that still had a good life left in it I think I would have shot myself, lol!


 
  
 They are worth a bit of a gamble I won a pair of GEC curved bases earlier in the year which where working equipment pulls the seller was in London and would only do collection only, luckily my brother worked close by I cant remember if it was £60 or £80 the pair but they both tested strongly at NOS levels on my Hickok tester sometimes you just get lucky


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> They are worth a bit of a gamble I won a pair of GEC curved bases earlier in the year which where working equipment pulls the seller was in London and would only do collection only, luckily my brother worked close by I cant remember if it was £60 or £80 the pair but they both tested strongly at NOS levels on my Hickok tester sometimes you just get lucky


 
  
 Curved base AND testing strong? Boy, did you strike gold - 2 of the 4 'ex equipment' Osram/GECs I received were curved also...but all 4 were dead or dying! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. And another pair was lost in the post/mail - you obviously had MORE than your fair share of luck, methinks!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Luckily, the supplier didn't quibble at all and is still in fact trying to find some more for me...but 'needle in a haystack' comes to mind. And I suppose I did have my fair share of luck as he let me have an immaculate NOS GEC CV2523 (straight base) for £60...can't complain, lol!!
  
  
 ps. Don't know if I'm imagining it, but with this tube in situ I swear I'm getting an even more dynamic sound than from its prior 'NOS' tube I got from Italy (both Italians had some of the printing rubbed, and were nowhere near as immaculate-looking...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...perhaps a result of testing for military use?...mmmm...).


----------



## gibosi

All these look to me to have been manufactured in Mullard's Mitcham factory. Does anyone know if Philips manufactured this tube in Holland as well?


----------



## Oskari

I have yet to see a Dutch one.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

No Hollands in my (growing) collection


----------



## JamieMcC

gibosi said:


> All these look to me to have been manufactured in Mullard's Mitcham factory. Does anyone know if Philips manufactured this tube in Holland as well?


 

 Several of the Mitcham 6080 I have owned have been flashers think I have three or four with differing construction in the getters.


----------



## fallow81

Hi Guys, 
  
 Please help me to identify this tube. It's 6AS7G.
 JAN - CAHG - 6AS7G
 MADE IN U.S.A.
 CHATHAM ELECTRONICS
  
 CODE: 422
  
 The code is a bit strange to me, because I know Chatham was a part of Tung-Sol and they sometimes invented some little thing to make a difference from them, but - Tung-Sol factory code is 322. The next one 423 is Northern American Philips. 
 Is 422 just a Chatham factory code?
  
 Thanks a lot!


----------



## gibosi

My guess is that 422 is the date code: 1954 week 22. And I believe that Tung-Sol acquired Chatham at a later date, so Chatham was an independent company in 1954.


----------



## fallow81

Thanks a lot Gibosi


----------



## Oskari

fallow81 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Please help me to identify this tube. It's 6AS7G.
> JAN - CAHG - 6AS7G
> ...


 
  
 The 1946 code list (see http://audiophool.com/Techno.html) gives 422 as Crimp-Seal Products Co., Chicago 10, Ill. Yeah, not likely. But CAHG _is_ Chatham, and these military codes are more trustworthy anyway.
  


gibosi said:


> My guess is that 422 is the date code: 1954 week 22. And I believe that Tung-Sol acquired Chatham at a later date, so Chatham was an independent company in 1954.


 
  
 Probably so. That date is May 20, 1957. That was surprisingly easy to find. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2023/Bloomfield%20NJ%20Independient%20Press/Bloomfield%20NJ%20Independient%20Press%201958/Bloomfield%20NJ%20Independient%20Press%201958%20-%200153.pdf
http://www.sec.gov/news/digest/1957/dig070557.pdf


----------



## Ultrainferno

Is it me or do these GEC stickers look a bit weird
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/281518067841


----------



## Xenophon

ultrainferno said:


> Is it me or do these GEC stickers look a bit weird
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/281518067841


 

 Well, I'll put it charitably:  I won't whip out my card on this deal.


----------



## Skylab

Pretty sure the tubes were relabeled and re stenciled, presumably to try to drive up the resale value? The plate structure makes them look like legit GEC though.


----------



## john57

I would agree that the GEC stickers just looks brand new. Even the brown base looks new. The boxes looks very old and has water stains on it? I am still not sure if it is a GEC tube?


----------



## JamieMcC

Looks like a GEC to me some of them do have bottom halo getters instead of the more common cup getter.  Over here in the UK NOS ones from reputable dealers are normally around £80 each but stock is generally limited.


----------



## Xenophon

jamiemcc said:


> Looks like a GEC to me some of them do have bottom halo getters instead of the more common cup getter.  Over here in the UK NOS ones from reputable dealers are normally around £80 each but stock is generally limited.


 

 Not doubting you but I've never, ever seen a GEC 6AS7G NOS at that price.  But admittedly I don't know a lot of UK based dealers apart from the usual suspects.


----------



## kazsud

They look like GEC to me. He reposted this because the first listing didn't sell.


----------



## JamieMcC

Some slotted 6080 bendix shipping is a little to high to the UK otherwise I would have had them myself.
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-Bendix-JAN-CEA-6080WB-Plate-Vacuum-Tubes-5998-Tested-good-/371209206486?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item566dcafad6


----------



## MIKELAP

jamiemcc said:


> Some slotted 6080 bendix shipping is a little to high to the UK otherwise I would have had them myself.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-Bendix-JAN-CEA-6080WB-Plate-Vacuum-Tubes-5998-Tested-good-/371209206486?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item566dcafad6


 
 What a ripoff tubes are affordable but seller jacks price of shipping they think were stupid or what


----------



## Xenophon

jamiemcc said:


> Some slotted 6080 bendix shipping is a little to high to the UK otherwise I would have had them myself.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-of-Bendix-JAN-CEA-6080WB-Plate-Vacuum-Tubes-5998-Tested-good-/371209206486?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item566dcafad6


 

 Classic Ebay ripoff.  Add the import duty + VAT to the price + cost of shipping + the cost the postal service will charge you for filing the customs declaration and that deal looks a lot less interesting to me.  I'm done ordering tubes from outside the EU, too many hassles with paperwork and extra costs.  Imagine having to ship back a defective item.


----------



## MJS242

xenophon said:


> Classic Ebay ripoff.  Add the import duty + VAT to the price + cost of shipping + the cost the postal service will charge you for filing the customs declaration and that deal looks a lot less interesting to me.  I'm done ordering tubes from outside the EU, too many hassles with paperwork and extra costs.  Imagine having to ship back a defective item.


 
  
 From my experience, I've shipped stuff to EU via USPS for less than what that guy is charging but if you want to track it you need a different shipping priority level and $50 is pretty accurate for a tube size box (with tracking) going to EU.  I don't think this guy is running a scam with the shipping, I think he's just trying to avoid getting burned by shipping something he can't track.  He offers free shipping on his stuff within the US.


----------



## Xenophon

mjs242 said:


> From my experience, I've shipped stuff to EU via USPS for less than what that guy is charging but if you want to track it you need a different shipping priority level and $50 is pretty accurate for a tube size box (with tracking) going to EU.  I don't think this guy is running a scam with the shipping, I think he's just trying to avoid getting burned by shipping something he can't track.  He offers free shipping on his stuff within the US.


 

 He listed priority mail international as method of shipping.  Their small flat rate box from the US to the UK costs 23.50 USD, that's insured and with tracking according to the USPS site, max weight 4lbs but I guess 2 tubes won't surpass that.   But USPS = grief on the receiving end.  Not through their fault but because it's handled by the national postal service at destination.  In case of Belgium, I know (unfortunately) that these charge 30 USD, just for filing the bloody customs declaration.  Omitting import duties, that means here:
  
 - 119 USD goods price
 - 50 USD shipping charge (actual 25 USD let's say)
 - VAT (21%) on 144 USD = 30,24 USD
 - Belgian post admin fee: 30 USD
  
 Total:  229,24 USD.
  
 So you see....better hope that those tubes are good and you don't need to ship anything back.


----------



## MJS242

xenophon said:


> He listed priority mail international as method of shipping.  Their small flat rate box from the US to the UK costs 23.50 USD, that's insured and with tracking according to the USPS site, max weight 4lbs but I guess 2 tubes won't surpass that.   But USPS = grief on the receiving end.  Not through their fault but because it's handled by the national postal service at destination.  In case of Belgium, I know (unfortunately) that these charge 30 USD, just for filing the bloody customs declaration.  Omitting import duties, that means here:
> 
> - 119 USD goods price
> - 50 USD shipping charge (actual 25 USD let's say)
> ...


 
  
  
 You can do a small flat rate priority box with tracking for the price you said.  No way I would ship tubes in a box like that.  There's no room for padding.  He's most likely using a medium flat rate priority box which puts him in the $50 price area.


----------



## Skylab

6AS7G tubes so NOT fit, at all, in the small priority mail box, FWIW. It's really not even sufficient for a 6SN7 type tube with padding.


----------



## john57

skylab said:


> 6AS7G tubes so NOT fit, at all, in the small priority mail box, FWIW. It's really not even sufficient for a 6SN7 type tube with padding.


 
 Darn,
  
 Some of my 6SN7 did come in the small box.


----------



## atistatic

where can i get quad matched GEC CV2523 (6AS7G), anyone know ?


----------



## Dogmatrix

atistatic said:


> where can i get quad matched GEC CV2523 (6AS7G), anyone know ?


 

 1968


----------



## MIKELAP

This might help lol.


----------



## JamieMcC

atistatic said:


> where can i get quad matched GEC CV2523 (6AS7G), anyone know ?


 

 They are available but a matched quad might cost  in the region of £500-£600


----------



## gunnerwholelife

Any cheap 6as7g around on ebay ?


----------



## gibosi

gunnerwholelife said:


> Any cheap 6as7g around on ebay ?


 
  
 Of course! I suggest you point your browser to ebay.com and see for yourself.


----------



## gunnerwholelife

gibosi said:


> Of course! I suggest you point your browser to ebay.com and see for yourself.


 
  
 Ha that's funny.Thanks for enlightening me 
 Actually I had another query for you folks but that got solved so I edited the post to something pointless.
 Nevermind. Merry Christmas !


----------



## Skylab

For those who are not aware you can still get NOS JAN-GE Military 6AS7GA tubes for $12 each from Parts Express

http://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612


----------



## kazsud

skylab said:


> For those who are not aware you can still get NOS JAN-GE Military 6AS7GA tubes for $12 each from Parts Express
> 
> http://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612




How do they sound?


----------



## Lorspeaker

kazsud said:


> How do they sound?


 
  
 copied from the review of a buyer two years ago at the bottom of that linkpage :
  
  
   
         _I have been using the Russian tubes from Parts Express almost exclusively in my excellent Crack headphone amp. Always assumed the JAN military-grades weren't musical enough. Boy, was I wrong. *The GE 6AS7GA after about a 20 hour burn-in is very tight and musical.* I may just be lucky on this one tube but I can't argue the value for the money. Less than half the price of my Russian tube and it sounds better to me. Parts Express is a no-brainer for this type of product and service._


----------



## Badas

kazsud said:


> How do they sound?


 

 They look very similar in structure to the Stock Woo WA22 power tubes.
 Same internal and font lettering printed on the tube. Different bass and glass.
  
 The stock tubes sounded good/great. I hardly noticed a difference changing from the stock tube to something more expensive like the Tung-Sol 7236. I have kept the stock tubes as spares as they were good.


----------



## gibosi

Has anyone had the opportunity to compare the Telefunken 6080 to the Mullard? And/or the GEC?
  
 I have seen GE tubes relabeled as Telefunken, but I have also seen tubes bearing the Telefunken brand with the standard Telefunken tube code, for example, U6101805. These have a different construction than the rebranded GE's and I would assume they really were manufactured by Telefunken.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## kazsud

gibosi said:


> Has anyone had the opportunity to compare the Telefunken 6080 to the Mullard? And/or the GEC?
> I have the Telefunken. They don't really sound like anything. It has least character of all the tubes I have. The gec 6080 are great and are the most engaging ive heard. Haven't heard the Mullard 6080 yet.
> 
> I have seen GE tubes relabeled as Telefunken, but I have also seen tubes bearing the Telefunken brand with the standard Telefunken tube code, for example, U6101805. These have a different construction than the rebranded GE's and I would assume they really were manufactured by Telefunken.
> ...


----------



## gibosi

kazsud said:


> I have the Telefunken. They don't really sound like anything. It has least character of all the tubes I have. The gec 6080 are great and are the most engaging ive heard. Haven't heard the Mullard 6080 yet.


 
  
 Thanks for your observations. So unless I come across a cheap pair, I think I will pass on the Telefunkens....
  
 Cheers


----------



## Badas

Have you guys noticed 6AS7G's on ebay at the moment.
  
 There is nothing there. Nothing to get excited about.
  
 There is only RCA's. Very noisy.
  
 or
  
 Russian tubes or Russian re-labeled. That sound rubbish.
  
 No Sylvania, Raytheon or Tung-Sol.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Have you guys noticed 6AS7G's on ebay at the moment.
> 
> There is nothing there. Nothing to get excited about.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Of course, I cannot be 100% positive, but I am of the opinion that of the American manufacturers, only RCA and Chatham produced these tubes. So chances are, any Sylvania or Raytheon you see were likely manufactured by RCA. Further, it appears that even Tung-Sol occasionally relabeled tubes manufactured by RCA....


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> Of course, I cannot be 100% positive, but I am of the opinion that of the American manufacturers, only RCA and Chatham produced these tubes. So chances are, any Sylvania or Raytheon you see were likely manufactured by RCA. Further, it appears that even Tung-Sol occasionally relabeled tubes manufactured by RCA....


 

 I have a selection of the lot.
  
 The Sylvania's could be RCA. However they don't seem to have the noise.
  
 I have a few sets of the Raytheon's (my favorite). They have a different construction on the top Micra's. The way they attach. Also shorter bottle. There is a chrome top version that I also think is RCA.
  
 I have a Tung-Sol. Very nice and very different construction.
  
 Also I have a set of Chathams. Damn nice.


----------



## adeadcrab

edit: wrong thread


----------



## Skylab

gibosi said:


> Of course, I cannot be 100% positive, but I am of the opinion that of the American manufacturers, only RCA and Chatham produced these tubes. So chances are, any Sylvania or Raytheon you see were likely manufactured by RCA. Further, it appears that even Tung-Sol occasionally relabeled tubes manufactured by RCA....




I have owned several dozen pairs of Tung-Sol 6AS7G tubes and I've never seen one that could possibly have been a relabeled RCA. And many pre-date Tung-Sol's acquisition of Chatham Electronics. Doesn't mean it never happened on occasion though. I have a Tung-Sol .6SN7GT which is definitely Sylvania made, which is funny because Tung-Sol made LOTS of 6SN7 tubes. 

I can't say for sure about Raytheon and Sylvania 6AS7's . Might be RCA made. Might not.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I don't think RCAs are especially noisely, you might have just been unlucky on that one but you do need to look at the Russians again, they are one of the better Russian tubes and recommended.


----------



## Badas

nic rhodes said:


> I don't think RCAs are especially noisely, you might have just been unlucky on that one but you do need to look at the Russians again, they are one of the better Russian tubes and recommended.




Damn I find the RCA's real noisy. I have bought 3 sets and by mix and matching I have one set out of the three which is nice. The others are a lost cause. 

Are you saying the Russian equivalent 6AS7G tubes are okay sounding? 

I have one set that has been relabelled Zaerix.

I took a quick listen and there was no noise or hum. It didn't really grab me so I just stored it away. I probably didn't give them a fair go as I had others that I was more excited about.

Maybe I will roll them in tomorrow.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I have a lot of RCA 6AS7G tubes and only was noisy. Are you buying them on ebay only ?
 I can't agree the RCA's are noisy, like it's been said above, I think you just were unlucky


----------



## Badas

ultrainferno said:


> I have a lot of RCA 6AS7G tubes and only was noisy. Are you buying them on ebay only ?
> I can't agree the RCA's are noisy, like it's been said above, I think you just were unlucky




Damn why am I so freakin unlucky?

Yes ebay. My only option where I live. 

Annoyes me that I get the bad ones. Nothing I can do from here as well. 

Seriously three sets at full price and only two tubes are not noisy. The other 4 are crap. Also worried that the two that are good are not matched. One does look more used than the other.


----------



## Xenophon

Can't you just order via the web in a brick and mortar shop?  Or here on head-fi in the for sale/trade forums?  Nothing's ever a sure thing but Ebay is always a gamble although I only got ripped off once, with 2 Thomson tubes that looked pristine but were in fact totally exhausted.  And one Chatham 2399 that's noisy but I got 4 at a very decent price so on balance it was still an ok deal.


----------



## rosgr63

I agree with Nic and Ultra, I like the RCA and don't find them noisy.


----------



## gibosi

skylab said:


> I have owned several dozen pairs of Tung-Sol 6AS7G tubes and I've never seen one that could possibly have been a relabeled RCA. And many pre-date Tung-Sol's acquisition of Chatham Electronics. Doesn't mean it never happened on occasion though. I have a Tung-Sol .6SN7GT which is definitely Sylvania made, which is funny because Tung-Sol made LOTS of 6SN7 tubes.


 
  
 This Tung-Sol looks very much like an RCA to my eyes: steel grid posts, metal shields below the bottom mica, a single D-getter, and even the 8-sided polyhedron on the glass with a small gap in the outline, which some say can be used to date RCA tubes.
  
 But of course, this is just my best guess.....


----------



## Nic Rhodes

yes you will find many of us fans of the russian 6as7gs (both types) and they are still dirt cheap.


----------



## gibosi

nic rhodes said:


> yes you will find many of us fans of the russian 6as7gs (both types) and they are still dirt cheap.


 
  
 When you say "both types", do you mean both the 6N13S and the 6N5S?


----------



## JamieMcC

nic rhodes said:


> yes you will find many of us fans of the russian 6as7gs (both types) and they are still dirt cheap.


 
  
 I am for sure the winged C 6N13S is a bit of a bargain imo compared to the RCA ,Sylvania, 6as7g and recently I have bee hearing good things about the 6N13P Dawn Star which I have yet to try.


----------



## Badas

Okay I have rolled in the Russian tubes this morning. So far so good.

No hum, no noise. So far the sound is good. 

I will roll with them for a while.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

gibosi said:


> When you say "both types", do you mean both the 6N13S and the 6N5S?


 

  Yes, the Russian did a good job with these tubes.


----------



## Badas

nic rhodes said:


> Yes, the Russian did a good job with these tubes.




Okay. I'm fast becoming a Russian convert. I have listen to about 12 hours since yesterday. They seem to tick all the right boxes. Dynamic and clean. Can I hear a tad of mellow mid-range and slight treble roll off???? If so I like it.


----------



## hypnos1

badas said:


> Okay. I'm fast becoming a Russian convert. I have listen to about 12 hours since yesterday. They seem to tick all the right boxes. Dynamic and clean. Can I hear a tad of mellow mid-range and slight treble roll off???? If so I like it.


 
  
 Hi Badas.
  
 My new Feliks-Audio Elise that I have just received uses the 6N13S, and I must admit I'm already VERY impressed with them. Am looking forward to seeing just how they compare to the GEC CV2523s...


----------



## Lorspeaker

I like the wingC ..the mainstay on my dv336se


----------



## Badas

lorspeaker said:


> I like the wingC ..the mainstay on my dv336se




Yeah. I missed the boat on that one. I'm going to buy stock of them now.


----------



## adeadcrab

Hi all,

 Another fan of the Svetlana 6AS7G variant here. Got 2 pairs on ebay, from the seller in Ukraine. Nice balanced sound.


----------



## hypnos1

badas said:


> Okay. I'm fast becoming a Russian convert. I have listen to about 12 hours since yesterday. They seem to tick all the right boxes. Dynamic and clean. Can I hear a tad of mellow mid-range and slight treble roll off???? If so I like it.


 
  
 Hi again Badas.
  
 With further burn-in on the 6N13S I agree they tick a good many boxes - especially for the price! In my new amp they are driven by equally 'cheap' 6H8C drivers and this Russian combo certainly can deliver the goods. If you're interested, I gave my initial impressions in more detail over at the 'Feliks-Audio - 6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype' thread (so as not to fall foul of 'multiple posting' rules!).
  
 MERRY CHRISTMAS by the way....


----------



## Badas

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again Badas.
> 
> With further burn-in on the 6N13S I agree they tick a good many boxes - especially for the price! In my new amp they are driven by equally 'cheap' 6H8C drivers and this Russian combo certainly can deliver the goods. If you're interested, I gave my initial impressions in more detail over at the 'Feliks-Audio - 6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype' thread (so as not to fall foul of 'multiple posting' rules!).
> 
> MERRY CHRISTMAS by the way....




Merry Christmas Head-Fi brother. 

Yeah the Russian Tubes are going to be my go to power tubes now. I will keep the nice American tubes when the others dry up or when I'm a lot older and retired.


----------



## Jimmy24

Can someone recommend a good tube for my Crack+Speedball? Looking into the Tier 2 tubes between $50 and $150. I'm looking for one that will give me the best soundstage/live sounding. Also, what input tube would go best with it? Thanks guys.


----------



## punit

jimbo24 said:


> Can someone recommend a good tube for my Crack+Speedball? Looking into the Tier 2 tubes between $50 and $150. I'm looking for one that will give me the best soundstage/live sounding. Also, what input tube would go best with it? Thanks guys.


 

 When I had the Crack + SB these were my fav's (which fall within your budget). Listed in *MY* order of preference :
  

T.S 5998
Bendix / Chatham / T.S 6080 WB Graphite Plates
GEC 6080
T.S 7236
Mullard 6080
6N13S (6H13C) Svetlana
  
 My top fav's were GEC 6AS7G & WE 421A but these cost more than $ 150. For the pre tube, the Crack thread will be a better place to get good recommendations.


----------



## JamieMcC

If you are eagle eyed occasionally you can find clear top 5998's these are getting much more scarce theses days and are about as close in construction and sound to the expensive  WE421a as you can get without having to fork out some serious money. They have all the qualities of the regular 5998 but have just that bit better tone and I find them more musical (all in my own subjective opinion of course).


----------



## Jimmy24

punit said:


> When I had the Crack + SB these were my fav's (which fall within your budget). Listed in *MY* order of preference :
> 
> 
> T.S 5998
> ...


 
  
 Thank you for your suggestions. I'm leaning towards the T.S. 5998 as I've heard a lot of recommendations for that tube. As for the GEC 6AS7G and the WE 421A I would rather upgrade my equipment than spending some crazy money on tubes that don't last forever.


----------



## MrEleventy

Skylab : You're famous! :tongue_smile: 
eBay : Darkvoice US Edition?


----------



## MJS242

mreleventy said:


> @Skylab : You're famous!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Change name, create fancy box, increase price $300 aaaaand done.  US edition awesome-ness.


----------



## Skylab

mreleventy said:


> Skylab : You're famous! :tongue_smile:
> eBay : Darkvoice US Edition?




More like infamous if I'm being quoted for such an old review!


----------



## MrEleventy

I wonder if it even crossed their minds that when prospective buyer goes to the "review" and sees that MSRP is $300, people will leave and just buy the cheaper version?


----------



## Lorspeaker

massdrop priced it for around usd200 recently...


----------



## adeadcrab

jamiemcc said:


> I am for sure the winged C 6N13S is a bit of a bargain imo compared to the RCA ,Sylvania, 6as7g and recently I have bee hearing good things about the 6N13P Dawn Star which I have yet to try.


 

 The Dawn Star / Shuguang 6N13PT are very good, with a similiar sound to Svetlana 6N13S.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

any one any thoughts on the Svetlana 6N5S?


----------



## Artsi

I have used 6N5S's, and i think they are exactly the same with basic 6N13S.


----------



## Zwyguy

On a whim I bought a NOS 6AS7G from Rogers, black plates, top getter.
  
 Is it likely made by RCA? It looks very similar.


----------



## Ultrainferno

zwyguy said:


> On a whim I bought a NOS 6AS7G from Rogers, black plates, top getter.
> 
> Is it likely made by RCA? It looks very similar.


 
  
 A pic or date codes etc might help


----------



## Zwyguy

ultrainferno said:


> A pic or date codes etc might help


 

 Ah yes, sorry:
  

  
 That's what's on the base... let me know if better pictures are needed and I'll take it off the amp.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Definitely looks like RCA. very nice condition. Does it have chrome tops?


----------



## Badas

When it comes to Russian 6AS7G's is there any difference in the model types?
  
 I see 6N5S, 6H5C and 6N13S. They all look the same.
  
 Is there a difference?


----------



## GrindingThud

http://www.gstube.com/data/581/
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-008/Scans-00176494.pdf
http://www.tubes.ru/techinfo/HiFiAudio/6n13s.html
The Letter differences are Cyrillic vs English
Found the data in an earlier post here: 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/1500#post_10854210
http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/1500#post_10854241





badas said:


> When it comes to Russian 6AS7G's is there any difference in the model types?
> 
> I see 6N5S, 6H5C and 6N13S. They all look the same.
> 
> Is there a difference?


----------



## Zwyguy

badas said:


> Definitely looks like RCA. very nice condition. Does it have chrome tops?




It has what looks like a D-getter with a very small amount of material deposit on top.


----------



## Badas

zwyguy said:


> It has what looks like a D-getter with a very small amount of material deposit on top.


 
  
 Is the sound clean? No hum.
  
 RCA 6AS7G is a nice sounding tube.
  
 I have 2 pairs Raytheons, 1 pair Sylvania, 1 pair of Tung-Sols, 1 pair of Tung-Sol 7236, 2 pairs of RCA's and 1 pair of Chathams. Plus various 6080's Brimar and Chatham. Plus 3 pairs of Russian tubes.
  
 The RCA 6AS7G is second only to the Chatham 6AS7G that I own. However the Chatham is too hard to get now.


----------



## Zwyguy

badas said:


> Is the sound clean? No hum.
> 
> RCA 6AS7G is a nice sounding tube.
> 
> ...


 
  
 There is no hum; it did sound very clean and brighter / more definition in the high frequencies than the tube I had on before but not as much clarity in the mid range as I was hoping for... I only had a little while with it before I had to go to work so I haven't listened to it enough yet. I barely had time to let it heat up.
  
 I'm still at work now but I look forward to giving it closer attention when I get back.


----------



## Badas

zwyguy said:


> There is no hum; it did sound very clean and brighter / more definition in the high frequencies than the tube I had on before but not as much clarity in the mid range as I was hoping for... I only had a little while with it before I had to go to work so I haven't listened to it enough yet. I barely had time to let it heat up.
> 
> I'm still at work now but I look forward to giving it closer attention when I get back.


 

 That's good news. I've found the RCA variants can often have a background hum. It does lessen over time tho.
  
 So it has no chrome top and has a D-Getter at the top. This is the same as my Raytheon's (which I suspect are also RCA). Very nice tubes. I have one set that is so close to my Chatham. I might actually roll those back in. I'm just using the Russian's at the moment and enjoying a lot.
  
 The Chatham is just so freakin lush. However I don't want to use as I can't replace. I will use the day I retire. I hope I don't croak before then.


----------



## Zwyguy

badas said:


> That's good news. I've found the RCA variants can often have a background hum. It does lessen over time tho.
> 
> So it has no chrome top and has a D-Getter at the top. This is the same as my Raytheon's (which I suspect are also RCA). Very nice tubes. I have one set that is so close to my Chatham. I might actually roll those back in. I'm just using the Russian's at the moment and enjoying a lot.
> 
> The Chatham is just so freakin lush. However I don't want to use as I can't replace. I will use the day I retire. I hope I don't croak before then.


 
  
 It does have very little material deposit on top from the getter, or chrome as you say; about a nickel sized amount.
  
 I got the Rogers 6AS7G for $15... Some of those Russian tubes can be found quite cheap. Are they worth looking into? I've heard mixed opinions.
  
 I don't have the luxury of waiting until retirement or my tubes would be in a box for the next 30+ years, haha.


----------



## Jimmy24

badas said:


> That's good news. I've found the RCA variants can often have a background hum. It does lessen over time tho.
> 
> So it has no chrome top and has a D-Getter at the top. This is the same as my Raytheon's (which I suspect are also RCA). Very nice tubes. I have one set that is so close to my Chatham. I might actually roll those back in. I'm just using the Russian's at the moment and enjoying a lot.
> 
> The Chatham is just so freakin lush. However I don't want to use as I can't replace. I will use the day I retire. I hope I don't croak before then.


 
  
 I contacted vacuumtubes.net a few months ago because I was interested in the Chatham 6AS7G's as well and they had them in stock for $20 a piece. The link can be found here. 
  
 https://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html
  
 I never purchased them but I'm sure they still have them in stock.
  
 Now you don't have to wait for retirement to use them.


----------



## Badas

zwyguy said:


> It does have very little material deposit on top from the getter, or chrome as you say; about a nickel sized amount.
> 
> I got the Rogers 6AS7G for $15... Some of those Russian tubes can be found quite cheap. Are they worth looking into? I've heard mixed opinions.
> 
> I don't have the luxury of waiting until retirement or my tubes would be in a box for the next 30+ years, haha.


 

  I'm 21 years of retirement. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 However I'm a bit weird like this. I also collect wine and when I buy a bottle (usually big $$) I look at it and pick a time to drink it. Often 15-20 years away. Stupid aye.
  
 Your Rogers: Good price. Good tubes. Definitely a RCA type.
  
 The Russians are a mixed bag. My first lot were sold to me and were seconds. Terrible. Bad Vacuum etc. Then I bought another pair by mistake from another supplier. Thought I would just try them and found myself impressed. Buy from a dealer that looks as they know what they are doing. I have two more sets on the way as we speak. I will test and report if they are good. If you get good Russian tubes they produced a very nice sound at good prices.


----------



## Badas

jimbo24 said:


> I contacted vacuumtubes.net a few months ago because I was interested in the Chatham 6AS7G's as well and they had them in stock for $20 a piece. The link can be found here.
> 
> https://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 Damn. Some nice prices there. The Mullards look interesting.
  
 The Chathams come in two varriants. Some were made my RCA. The pair I own are really old. Copper internals.


----------



## MJS242

badas said:


> Damn. Some nice prices there. The Mullards look interesting.
> 
> The Chathams come in two varriants. Some were made my RCA. The pair I own are really old. Copper internals.


 
  
 I don't think there are RCA re-branded Chathams.  From what I understand Chatham was once a separate company that was acquired by Tung-Sol and became a division within Tung-Sol.
  
 Also, this Rogers tube might be an RCA or it might any other company that has a tube that is indistinguishable from this such as a Westinghouse, Sylvania, etc.  Or this might be an actual Rogers produced tube.  Check for an EIA code:
  
 http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm


----------



## Zwyguy

badas said:


> I'm 21 years of retirement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 At least wine gets better with age.. your ears are only going to worse!
  


mjs242 said:


> Also, this Rogers tube might be an RCA or it might any other company that has a tube that is indistinguishable from this such as a Westinghouse, Sylvania, etc.  Or this might be an actual Rogers produced tube.  Check for an EIA code:
> http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm


 
  

  
 Looking at the box it actually says right on it, "Manufactured by Canadian Radio Manufacturing Corporation Limited..." which appears to be Rogers itself.
  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Vacuum_Tube_Company
  
 I had no idea they made their own tubes.


----------



## gibosi

zwyguy said:


> Looking at the box it actually says right on it, "Manufactured by Canadian Radio Manufacturing Corporation Limited..." which appears to be Rogers itself.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Vacuum_Tube_Company
> 
> I had no idea they made their own tubes.


 
  
 RCA commonly licensed technology to Rogers and others, so it is certainly possible that this is an RCA-designed tube manufactured in Canada by Rogers. If so, being manufactured in a different factory, it may well sound somewhat different than a "genuine" RCA.


----------



## Badas

Just took this pic for reference. From left to right Chatham, Tung-Sol, Sylvania, Raytheon and RCA.

The Chatham is very different from the rest. Different construction on the bottom. It has very, very light grey colour plates. I also a set of 6080 Chathams with the same colour plates.
Tung-Sol is also different from the RCA type. Shorter bottle (hard to tell in pic) and whole tube assembly is lower down.
Tung-Sol and Sylvania have grey plates
Raytheon and RCA have black plates.
I have Raytheon and RCA with and without chrome tops.
Sylvania, Raytheon and RCA look identical in internal construction and bottle size.


----------



## Skylab

I have a number of tubes made by Rogers in Canada. Nice tubes.


----------



## Badas

I threw in the Chahams in late last night for a listening session. Damn these are nice. Smooth with really great bass impact. Best I have heard. 

Just out of interest I have thrown in a set of Bendix/Chathams 6080WB's in this morning. Just to listen to a set that doesn't use the coke bottle shape ( test tube shape). These are supose to be great. Graphite plates etc.
Well. Not impressed. Bass has gone on holiday. Very boring. The Chathams were way better.
I will give my Tung-Sol 7236's a shot next. Also test tube shape. They have heaps more power than all of my other tubes. I have noticed that previously.


----------



## hypnos1

badas said:


> I threw in the Chahams in late last night for a listening session. Damn these are nice. Smooth with really great bass impact. Best I have heard.
> 
> Just out of interest I have thrown in a set of Bendix/Chathams 6080WB's in this morning. Just to listen to a set that doesn't use the coke bottle shape ( test tube shape). These are supose to be great. Graphite plates etc.
> Well. Not impressed. Bass has gone on holiday. Very boring. The Chathams were way better.
> I will give my Tung-Sol 7236's a shot next. Also test tube shape. They have heaps more power than all of my other tubes. I have noticed that previously.


 
  
 Hi Badas.
  
 Those Chathams sure are _very_ nice tubes...in my new Feliks-Audio Elise, the difference between these (driven by a pair of 'chrome dome' 7N7s) and my GEC CV2523s doesn't actually justify the cost of the latter...unless one has managed to get some before the madness set in!... But if money's no object, go for the GECs!!


----------



## tropicana

Hi, I was offered a Raytheon branded Bendix 6080. Can anyone verify?
I have only heard of Chatham and Tung sol rebrands.


----------



## JamieMcC

Yes their are Raytheon branded Bendix 6080 with graphite plates but you don't see them very often I have only seen the solid column type.


----------



## GrindingThud

The Raytheon Bendix I've seen are like theses in this list and have dimpled plates vs graphite. There may also be graphite variants, although I've never seen one.
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


----------



## Badas

These look interesting:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/pair-Cetron-JAN-6528A-6080-6AS7G-tubes-unused-/251793793543?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item3aa0146207
  
 Can they really be used in a 6AS7G / 6080 circuit?


----------



## Skylab

badas said:


> These look interesting:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/pair-Cetron-JAN-6528A-6080-6AS7G-tubes-unused-/251793793543?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item3aa0146207
> 
> Can they really be used in a 6AS7G / 6080 circuit?




Almost universally NO. They will fry most power transformers in amps that use the 6AS7G. And on top of that, I had an amp that could use them, but they sounded horrid. Any 6ASG will sound better.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> Almost universally NO. They will fry most power transformers in amps that use the 6AS7G. And on top of that, I had an amp that could use them, but they sounded horrid. Any 6ASG will sound better.


 

 Thanks heaps. Out of my ebay wishlist.


----------



## Badas

Skylab,
  
 I was reading your post here from 5 years ago.
  
 http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/22/220349.html
  
 Very interesting. Great information.
  
 Has your opinions changed much?


----------



## Skylab

No, haven't really changed my opinion from there. I have since then been able to get 2399's which I also really liked, although it wasn't obvious to me that they were any different from 5998's. Looked identical.


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> No, haven't really changed my opinion from there. I have since then been able to get 2399's which I also really liked, although it wasn't obvious to me that they were any different from 5998's. Looked identical.


 

 The 5998 has been on my wishlist now for 6 months.
  
 Do you know a good supplier? Ebay prices are crazy.
  
 Others have also compared the 7236 to the 5998. Would you agree?
  
 I have the 7236 and I like. But they don't blow me away.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

6528 are monster that need 5a on the heaters, avoid unless you know what you are doing.


----------



## Jimmy24

badas said:


> The 5998 has been on my wishlist now for 6 months.
> 
> Do you know a good supplier? Ebay prices are crazy.
> 
> ...


 
  
 For the 5998's I would have to refer to vacuumtubes.net They have em for $85. Lowest price I've found.
  
 http://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html
  
 Cheers
  
 James


----------



## Khragon

I have a pair of 5998 purchased from vaccumtubes.net, at the time they told me they're out of stock.  I can sell my pair if anyone interested, pm me.  It's hasn't been used at all, < 10 hours, sold my WA22 shortly after purchasing the pair.


----------



## Badas

jimbo24 said:


> For the 5998's I would have to refer to vacuumtubes.net They have em for $85. Lowest price I've found.
> 
> http://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks James,
  
 Yeah. I emailed them earlier to ask if they have stock.
  
 On Friday I asked about Chatham's and Mullard 6AS7G. I was told that is a old list and they no longer in stock.
  
 I hope they still have the 5998.


----------



## Jimmy24

badas said:


> Thanks James,
> 
> Yeah. I emailed them earlier to ask if they have stock.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's too bad. I was actually interested in the Chatham 6AS7G's. Hopefully they will get more in stock as they have been the best place for tubes as far as prices go.


----------



## Badas

jimbo24 said:


> That's too bad. I was actually interested in the Chatham 6AS7G's. Hopefully they will get more in stock as they have been the best place for tubes as far as prices go.




There is no where to get stock from. :rolleyes:


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> Mullard 6AS7G.


 
  
 FYI, Mullard never made those.


----------



## Xenophon

badas said:


> Thanks James,
> 
> Yeah. I emailed them earlier to ask if they have stock.
> 
> ...


 

 If it's important to you, check that they effectively ship 5998.  I ordered a pair a year back and they sent me a pair of 2399 tubes.  Afaik they're identical, at any rate they sound just like the 5998, no complaints.  But I didn't appreciate them not checking with me if I was ok with this.


----------



## Badas

oskari said:


> FYI, Mullard never made those.


 
  
 That's what I thought. Was part of the reason I asked. Curiosity. I know they make a 6080. Has any one tried them? I know where to get NIB / NOS Mullard 6080's for 12.50 pound each.
  


xenophon said:


> If it's important to you, check that they effectively ship 5998.  I ordered a pair a year back and they sent me a pair of 2399 tubes.  Afaik they're identical, at any rate they sound just like the 5998, no complaints.  But I didn't appreciate them not checking with me if I was ok with this.


 
  
 Thanks for the tip. Appreciated.


----------



## JamieMcC

The Mullard 6080 one of my favourite tubes along with the GEC 6080 are I think amongst the very best sounding of the 6080 type. There are quiet a few different versions of the Mullard made in different factories both in the UK and in Europe.  I have come across at least 5 different examples so far look for ones manufactured in the Mitcham factory or generally its the earlier the manufacture the better.


----------



## Badas

jamiemcc said:


> The Mullard 6080 one of my favourite tubes along with the GEC 6080 are I think amongst the very best sounding of the 6080 type. There are quiet a few different versions of the Mullard made in different factories both in the UK and in Europe.  I have come across at least 5 different examples so far look for ones manufactured in the Mitcham factory or generally its the earlier the manufacture the better.


 

  
 These are the ones I was looking at. I thought I would give them a go. I have tried the Tung-Sol / Bendix 6080 and Tung-Sol 7236 (both very expensive tubes). Neither has impressed.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Have you tried the Bendix 6080WB? It's one of the most iconic tubes, if you don't like yours feel free to send them to me. I have about 10 but it doesn't hurt to have more.
 I actually have a couple of pairs of 7236 but I havan't felt the need to listen to them, haven't even opened the boxes


----------



## Badas

ultrainferno said:


> Have you tried the Bendix 6080WB? It's one of the most iconic tubes, if you don't like yours feel free to send them to me. I have about 10 but it doesn't hurt to have more.
> I actually have a couple of pairs of 7236 but I havan't felt the need to listen to them, haven't even opened the boxes


 

  
 Yeah. I have tried these. Not that impressed. Nothing wrong with them. I was just expecting more. The 6AS7G's I have collected have performed better.


----------



## Ultrainferno

That's the beauty of audio, you can like something the others don't and vice versa. As long as you like it, it's all good.
 In all honesty, I usually just put in RCA or Chatham (copper rod) 6AS7G. They're good enough for me, all my "fancy" tubes are in my tube closet.


----------



## MJS242

ultrainferno said:


> That's the beauty of audio, you can like something the others don't and vice versa. As long as you like it, it's all good.
> In all honesty, I usually just put in RCA or Chatham (copper rod) 6AS7G. They're good enough for me, all my "fancy" tubes are in my tube closet.


 
  
 That standard RCA construction tube is my favorite for general listening.  Sometimes I think people expect too much out of tubes when maybe the problem is that they just don't like their headphones and/or amp.  Different tubes never make or break anything for me.


----------



## MJS242

> I actually have a couple of pairs of 7236 but I havan't felt the need to listen to them, haven't even opened the boxes


 
  
 Good thing, because I just stuck a bunch of toilet paper and rocks in those boxes


----------



## Badas

ultrainferno said:


> That's the beauty of audio, you can like something the others don't and vice versa. As long as you like it, it's all good.
> In all honesty, I usually just put in RCA or Chatham (copper rod) 6AS7G. They're good enough for me, all my "fancy" tubes are in my tube closet.


 
  
 Yeah. That is the funny thing. I have lots and lots of 6AS7G's (Chatham, Tung-Sol, Raytheon, Sylvania and RCA). The Tung-Sol 6080, Tun-Sol 7236, Brimar 6080 and the stock tube GE 6080.
  
 They all sound very, very similar. Slight edge to Tung-Sol and Chatham 6AS7G. So in the end I tend to use the Russian 6N13 which also sounds the same as the others. I do that because it looks nice, cheap and quiet.
  
 I wonder if some amp circuits are limiting? and it really doesn't matter what power tube is installed.
  
 I got massive changes in the rectifier tube and good changes in the driver tubes. Bugger all in the power tubes.
  
 Lately I have done a lot of power tube rolling looking for that last 5% bass. Nothing delivers it. I might just go back to using the Russian and be done with it.
  
 I'm not complaining. The amp sounds fantastic. Woo WA22 by the way.


----------



## rosgr63

ultrainferno said:


> That's the beauty of audio, you can like something the others don't and vice versa. As long as you like it, it's all good.
> In all honesty, I usually just put in RCA or Chatham (copper rod) 6AS7G. They're good enough for me, all my "fancy" tubes are in my tube closet.


 

 That's what I've been using for many years.


----------



## Badas

ultrainferno said:


> That's the beauty of audio, you can like something the others don't and vice versa. As long as you like it, it's all good.
> In all honesty, I usually just put in *RCA or Chatham (copper rod) 6AS7G*. They're good enough for me, all my "fancy" tubes are in my tube closet.


 
  
 Never been a fan of the RCA's (6AS7G). Every set I have collected has had some level of noise. Won't go away either. Like the Chathams tho.
  
 How do you note the copper rod? What do we look for?
  


mjs242 said:


> Good thing, because I just stuck a bunch of toilet paper and rocks in those boxes


 

 Nice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Very quick.


----------



## Ultrainferno

badas said:


> How do you note the copper rod? What do we look for?


 
  
 Just look at it. If it's copper you would see it immediately (Chatham and tung sol mostly)


----------



## Badas

Okay. I'm done with power tube rolling. I threw in my last set of 6080 style tubes. The Tung-Sol 7236's. 
Boom they have the bass on tap. However they are dull. All the dynamics are gone. All 6AS7G's have the 6080's beat on dynamics.

So I have determined that I like 6AS7G type. Out of my collection I like the Chatham and Tung-Sols the best. I just purchased two more sets of the Tung-Sols today.  I like the ones without those flaps down the bottom the best. Then the Raytheons and Russian 6N13's lastly Sylvania and RCA's. The RCA's could be decent but I have 3 sets of noisy versions. So I give up on them.

I would love to try the Tung-Sol 5998, however at $85 for one $170 a set it is not going to happen.


----------



## Lorspeaker

the tungsol 5998 has that 5% more bass than all my runofmill6AS7s.. 
 u might have to fork out that 85bucks...LOL


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I have always liked the Mullard 6080 tubes and they are still great value (but don't tell anyone)  I feel they get overlooked a little with the GEC but have geat qualities in their own right.


----------



## Badas

nic rhodes said:


> I have always liked the Mullard 6080 tubes and they are still great value (but don't tell anyone)  I feel they get overlooked a little with the GEC but have geat qualities in their own right.


 

  Okay. I will get a few sets in to try. It will be the last 6080 tube I will try. Was the pic I posted yesterday of the Mullard 6080 a okay version?


----------



## john57

That look more like a 6080WC tube, The box looks kind of new to me.


----------



## gibosi

And the tube graphics, especially the "shield", look to kind of new to me too . See the National Valve Museum link below for the older "shield":
  
 http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0725.htm


----------



## Badas

john57 said:


> That look more like a 6080WC tube, The box looks kind of new to me.


 

 Is the WC okay?
  
 Yeah the box does look new. They are from Langrex. Best tube seller in the world.
 I don't know how they do it. All their stuff is the best condition.
  
 Check out the rectifiers I got from them this morning. Brimar 5Z4GY. From 1962. Best friggin rectifier I have ever heard
 by the way. Ended up getting 14 of them.
  
 Anyhow back on track. check out the box. Other than the mild discolouring of the box they look like I have time traveled back to 1962.


----------



## Jimmy24

nic rhodes said:


> I have always liked the Mullard 6080 tubes and they are still great value (but don't tell anyone)  I feel they get overlooked a little with the GEC but have geat qualities in their own right.




How do the Mullard 6080's compare with the other top tier tubes? I was also curious about these but if my 5998's provide better sound I don't really feel the need to buy other output tubes.


----------



## Ultrainferno

badas said:


> Is the WC okay?
> 
> Yeah the box does look new. They are from Langrex. Best tube seller in the world.
> I don't know how they do it. All their stuff is the best condition.
> ...


 
  
 They look cool indeed. I blew 2 of them up in my 300B amp as it was drawing too much current (over double what the 5Z4G can take)


----------



## Badas

ultrainferno said:


> They look cool indeed. I blew 2 of them up in my 300B amp as it was drawing too much current (over double what the 5Z4G can take)


 
  
 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, that would have been fun. Not. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 They work damn well in my Woo WA22. A mate has them in his WA5 as well.


----------



## JamieMcC

badas said:


> Okay. I will get a few sets in to try. It will be the last 6080 tube I will try. Was the pic I posted yesterday of the Mullard 6080 a okay version?


 

 It looks like a Mitcham Mullard with the AJ1 designation. Out of interest does it flash on start up from cold? Some of them seem to have this feature and some don't.
  
  
  
  


jimbo24 said:


> How do the Mullard 6080's compare with the other top tier tubes? I was also curious about these but if my 5998's provide better sound I don't really feel the need to buy other output tubes.


 
  
 Very good I would say if you take the GEC and Mullard 6080 they both have certain aspects that from my perspective are very close to or on par with the top tier tubes. This might be say, treble, midrange, resolution, timbre, tone, bass, musicality, PRaT, etc for examples
  
 The GEC and Mullard will excel at one or two and be very good at a second and the third and fourth fifth etc will be ok. In contrast a top tier tube might excel at three, four, or five of the areas. To my mind unless you have a pretty decent set up and totl cans spending large on top tier tubes can be a expensive folly.  With a mid tier headfi set up sure they will sound great and you will notice their impact sonically. But you really will be missing some of the real magic they are capable of delivering.
  
 To burn a 50 year old top tier tube and not to hear them reach their potential and really sing seems a real shame to me.


----------



## Badas

jamiemcc said:


> It looks like a Mitcham Mullard with the AJ1 designation. Out of interest does it flash on start up from cold? Some of them seem to have this feature and some don't.


 
  
 You are most likely correct. If you look closely at the pic it does look like AJ1 written on the tube (bottom right corner). I don't know about the flash thing. I haven't got the tubes yet. Going to get a few sets in to try.
  


jamiemcc said:


> Very good I would say if you take the GEC and Mullard 6080 they both have certain aspects that from my perspective are very close to or on par the top tier tubes. This might be say, treble, midrange, resolution, timbre, tone, bass, musicality, PRaT, etc for examples
> 
> The GEC and Mullard will excel at one or two and be very good at a second and the third and fourth fifth etc will be ok. In contrast a top tier tube might excel at three, four, or five of the areas. To my mind unless you have a pretty decent set up and totl cans spending large on top tier tubes can be a expensive folly.  With a mid tier headfi set up sure they will sound great and you will notice their impact sonically. But you really will be missing some of the real magic they are capable of delivering.
> 
> To burn a 50 year old top tier tube and not to hear them reach their potential and really sing seems a real shame to me.


 
  
 Excellent explanation. Thanks. Very helpful.


----------



## JamieMcC

I started of running a Brimar fivre 6080 this evening and actually switched to a ancient Mullard 6080 a couple of hours ago just before posting. Its been a while since I ran one and its been nice getting reacquainted again this evening.


----------



## Jimmy24

jamiemcc said:


> Very good I would say if you take the GEC and Mullard 6080 they both have certain aspects that from my perspective are very close to or on par with the top tier tubes. This might be say, treble, midrange, resolution, timbre, tone, bass, musicality, PRaT, etc for examples
> 
> The GEC and Mullard will excel at one or two and be very good at a second and the third and fourth fifth etc will be ok. In contrast a top tier tube might excel at three, four, or five of the areas. To my mind unless you have a pretty decent set up and totl cans spending large on top tier tubes can be a expensive folly.  With a mid tier headfi set up sure they will sound great and you will notice their impact sonically. But you really will be missing some of the real magic they are capable of delivering.
> 
> To burn a 50 year old top tier tube and not to hear them reach their potential and really sing seems a real shame to me.


 
  
 Thanks Jamie, that was a very helpful review. Yes, it seems to me that the tubes didn't make a night and day difference in terms of how enjoyable it made my Crack sound. To me replacing the Caps made a bigger difference. Compare that with the 5998 and the many 12AU7's I tried, it doesn't come close to value and sound quality that the Caps were able to provide.


----------



## JamieMcC

There is a whole raft of other little details neutrality, colour, textures, weight of notes, attack of leading transients, micro details (top tier) are others that spring to mind so its fun to mix it up and rotate every so often and be reminded.


----------



## Badas

I got these last night for $51.00. I didn't do too bad I think.


----------



## Jimmy24

jamiemcc said:


> There is a whole raft of other little details neutrality, colour, textures, weight of notes, attack of leading transients, micro details (top tier) are others that spring to mind so its fun to mix it up and rotate every so often and be reminded.


 
  
 That's true as well. The fun part about tubes is that you'll never get bored with just one type of sound signature. It's still a bit hard to distinguish the differences between 12AU7's though, at least for me. Unfortunately I cannot alternate output tubes to see the differences in sound there, although it may be a good thing that I didn't spend too much on different tubes. 
  
 Have you tried the Winged C output tube? There is a member on the Bottlehead forum willing to split the cost of a pair for those but I'm not sure if I want to spend anymore money on tubes.


----------



## MJS242

badas said:


> I got these last night for $51.00. I didn't do too bad I think.


 
  
 I meant to bid on that but the I'm-old-and-can't-make-it-past-like-11pm got the best of me.  $51 is a good price though, congrats.


----------



## Badas

jimbo24 said:


> That's true as well. The fun part about tubes is that you'll never get bored with just one type of sound signature. It's still a bit hard to distinguish the differences between 12AU7's though, at least for me. Unfortunately I cannot alternate output tubes to see the differences in sound there, although it may be a good thing that I didn't spend too much on different tubes.
> 
> *Have you tried the Winged C output tube? There is a member on the Bottlehead forum willing to split the cost of a pair for those but I'm not sure if I want to spend anymore money on tubes. *


 
  
 I will chime in. The Russians are a odd tube. They seem to do nothing great but everything good. Example not the best at bass but as good as the RCA. Not sweet treble but never harsh. It does have a very lush sounding quality. For some reason I keep getting drawn back to them. Extremely quiet noise level which is also a plus. A good all round tube. Just not great in anything. Hope this helps. I would rank a level higher than RCA. Not as good as the Chatham or Tung-sol.


mjs242 said:


> I meant to bid on that but the I'm-old-and-can't-make-it-past-like-11pm got the best of me.  $51 is a good price though, congrats.


 
  
 Thanks for letting me have them. Very happy about this purchase. I have found this style without the flaps on the bottom to be the most lush 6AS7G's. Not bad on bass either.


----------



## JamieMcC

badas said:


> I will chime in. The Russians are a odd tube. They seem to do nothing great but everything good. Example not the best at bass but as good as the RCA. Not sweet treble but never harsh. It does have a very lush sounding quality. For some reason I keep getting drawn back to them. Extremely quiet noise level which is also a plus. A good all round tube. Just not great in anything. Hope this helps. I would rank a level higher than RCA. Not as good as the Chatham or Tung-sol.


 
  
 That's a good description a reliable and decent all rounder and I prefer them to the run of the mil RCA type 6as7g. Chatham Tungsol apart but they are often considerably harder to source and a bit more pricy here in the UK.
  
 I thought they worked better when pairing them with a 6sn7 input instead of the normal 12au7 in the Crack. I picked up a couple recently for $6.45 tested NOS I have had a few tubes and other items from this seller in the past, Type in 6as7g in the search shop box and they also do matched pairs for a little extra.
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6N13S-6-13-6AS7G-RUSSIAN-100-TESTED-TUBE-NIB-NOS-/271743500125?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f452cbf5d


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Yes. I purchased some tubes from him last week.
  
 I was interested in this matched to 0.6%. So I have got two lots shipping to me now.
  
 The Russian 6AS7G seems to have a bad rap. I don't agree. More and more I'm using it as my go to use everyday tube. I'm putting away my Chatham and Tung-Sol tubes I have collected for another day (The Chatham, Tung-Sols are only a little better). The Russians are reasonably good, easy to get and inexpensive. A fair deal. Definitely like them better than RCA's and RCA re-brands (Raytheon, Sylvania to name a few).


----------



## JamieMcC

I do the same they fit the bill for a inexpensive tube for everyday use while on the pc surfing or working that you don't have to worry about leaving on for a hour if not listening. When I want to chill and have time just to sit and listen its nice to roll in something a little special,


----------



## atistatic

what happen if i get unmatched tubes? cuz it's hard to get Quad matched of 6as7g Sletvana, RCA or Tung-sol.


----------



## GrindingThud

Not much if used in a otl cathode follower. In that case, gain is set near unity and matching is pretty insignificant. If it's a gain circuit driving a transformer or another tube, matching for gain is pretty important.



atistatic said:


> what happen if i get unmatched tubes? cuz it's hard to get Quad matched of 6as7g Sletvana, RCA or Tung-sol.


----------



## JamieMcC

atistatic said:


> what happen if i get unmatched tubes? cuz it's hard to get Quad matched of 6as7g Sletvana, RCA or Tung-sol.


 
  
 Contact this ebay seller and ask for a matched quad cira $40-$50  its hard to go wrong with the Winged C at that price. I have had quiet a few tubes from him in the past with good service.
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6N13S-6-13-6AS7G-RUSSIAN-STRONG-difference-0-6-MATCHED-PAIR-TUBES-/281562998946?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item418e7668a2


----------



## atistatic

jamiemcc said:


> Contact this ebay seller and ask for a matched quad cira $40-$50  its hard to go wrong with the Winged C at that price. I have had quiet a few tubes from him in the past with good service.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6N13S-6-13-6AS7G-RUSSIAN-STRONG-difference-0-6-MATCHED-PAIR-TUBES-/281562998946?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item418e7668a2


 
 didn't quad matched tubes those guys.


----------



## JamieMcC

atistatic said:


> didn't quad matched tubes those guys.


 

 That's a shame and a bit of a surprise, could have swore they have had matched quads listed in the past as well as the matched pairs they have listed at the moment.


----------



## atistatic

jamiemcc said:


> That's a shame and a bit of a surprise, could have swore they have had matched quads listed in the past as well as the matched pairs they have listed at the moment.


 
 it's ok, i found a site that have quad matched 6as7g, thank you anyway.


----------



## tropicana

Has anyone heard of the mullard 6as7g?
Is it a rebrand?


----------



## Badas

tropicana said:


> Has anyone heard of the mullard 6as7g?
> Is it a rebrand?




They made the 6080 type but not the 6AS7G bottle type to my knowledge.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

tropicana said:


> Has anyone heard of the mullard 6as7g?
> Is it a rebrand?


 
  
 They did not make the 6AS7G. Plenty of 6080s.


----------



## Jimmy24

Anyone selling their 421a WE's or 6as7g GEC's?


----------



## gibosi

A nice pair of 6080 arrived here the other day:
  

  

  
 While "Made in Holland" is written on the boxes and tubes, the Philips production code reveals that these were in fact manufactured in Mullard's Mitcham factory. The code suggests that these were manufactured in October of 1957 or 1967. However, the change code of "0", the metal shielding above the top mica and the text and graphics on the boxes leads me to believe that 1957 is more likely the case.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> The code suggests that these were manufactured in October of 1957 or 1967. However, the change code of "0", the metal shielding above the top mica and the text and graphics on the boxes leads me to believe that 1957 is more likely the case.


 
  
 The missing week number and the short envelope agree.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

nice find, cheap?


----------



## gibosi

I gave $75 for the pair with free shipping...  As these are my first old Mullard 6080s I can't say if this is "cheap", but with free shipping, I didn't hesitate.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Nice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Langrex UK has shipped me samples of their Mullard 6080's. As soon as I receive I will give them a go and post my impressions.


----------



## gibosi

There are at least two versions of the Mullard 6080. The older shorter bottle on the left with sheetmetal shielding above the top mica is 1950's vintage, and the taller tube on the right is later. I haven't had a chance to compare these, so I can't comment on how they might differ sound-wise....


----------



## Puzzles

The short bottle Mullard with the radiator on the second spacer is often branded as Philips ECC230. I think they were made in the 50s and were  replaced by the tall bottle design some time after.  
 It's a great tube by the way. I prefer it over GEC 6AS7G and Tung Sol 5998 due to its full/rich tone body. They lack some detail but its tone compensates for that. It's just a shame most of my Mullard 6080s became noisy at some point. Three out of five.


----------



## Glam Bash

badas said:


> These are the ones I was looking at. I thought I would give them a go. I have tried the Tung-Sol / Bendix 6080 and Tung-Sol 7236 (both very expensive tubes). Neither has impressed.


 

 This Mullard looks quite different than Gibosi's between the top 2 spacers and got me thinking where I had seen this before. I pulled out my 80's Thompson 6080WA and they could be twins. Did the french factory use Mullard tooling? This tube is what I mean http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thomson-CFS-NOS-NIB-6080WA-black-plates-tube-France-Test-NOS-/171387179627?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e778d26b


----------



## gibosi

glam bash said:


> This Mullard looks quite different than Gibosi's between the top 2 spacers and got me thinking where I had seen this before. I pulled out my 80's Thompson 6080WA and they could be twins. Did the french factory use Mullard tooling? This tube is what I mean http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thomson-CFS-NOS-NIB-6080WA-black-plates-tube-France-Test-NOS-/171387179627?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e778d26b


 
  
 The top two micas in the Mullard are round with spikes, whereas the Thompson has smooth round micas with no spikes and rectangular mica spacers making contact with the glass on each side of the top mica. Further, the Thompson has a number of U-shaped heat-radiators on top of the second mica while the Mullard does not. So in terms of construction, these are quite different.
  
 That said, the plates in every 6080 and 6AS7 all look so similar it makes me wonder if they were all sourced from the same company... But this is just wild speculation on my part.


----------



## JamieMcC

Some of the Mitcham made Mullard 6080's I have used had the flasher on cold start feature.


----------



## Badas

These arrived yesterday. Samples from the nice guys at Langrex. I will review soon.
  
 They have 3 micra's and one top getter. Arrived NIB and NOS. Such excellent condition. Tubes are manufactured crooked as hell. I guess they didn't care about that in the day. I kinda like it as it gives them character.
  
 I have made a number of changes to my system in the last week. Most importantly the DAC. So I will let my system burn in and settle so I can get a baseline. I will compare to the Bendix 6080, Tung-Sol 7236 and Chatham Tung-Sol 6AS7G (my favorite).


----------



## Badas

Burning in the Mullard's now. First impressions are very good. Early days only got 10 hours on them. I will report back later next week.


----------



## ACHiPo

Hi,
 I'm new, and not a tube roller per se since my AtmaSphere amp topology doesn't seem sensitive to tube type.  I thought I'd pass on a recommendation, however, for an EBay seller in Ukraine that I recently had success with:  http://stores.ebay.com/ranutek/
  
 I have no affiliation, just happy that the 25 6N5S tested tubes arrived safely and in about 3 weeks from the Ukraine.  I have not verified all of them, but 8 of the 25 plugged in and worked perfectly.
  
 AC


----------



## Badas

achipo said:


> Hi,
> I'm new, and not a tube roller per se since my AtmaSphere amp topology doesn't seem sensitive to tube type.  I thought I'd pass on a recommendation, however, for an EBay seller in Ukraine that I recently had success with:  http://stores.ebay.com/ranutek/
> 
> I have no affiliation, just happy that the 25 6N5S tested tubes arrived safely and in about 3 weeks from the Ukraine.  I have not verified all of them, but 8 of the 25 plugged in and worked perfectly.
> ...


 

 Hhhhmmm,
  
 I purchased 20 of these from a Ukrainian dealer 3-4 months ago. They were a disaster. No vacuum. Lots of blue flares and crazy noise.
  
 It might have been a different dealer. I had to throw mine away.


----------



## ACHiPo

badas said:


> Hhhhmmm,
> 
> I purchased 20 of these from a Ukrainian dealer 3-4 months ago. They were a disaster. No vacuum. Lots of blue flares and crazy noise.
> 
> It might have been a different dealer. I had to throw mine away.


 
 That's why I posted this--just trying to give what seems to be a good guy some good press.  Did you try to get a refund from your guy?
  
 There are a lot of Ukrainian dealers.  I'd heard a lot of bad stories, but Ralph Karsten of AtmaSphere seemed to think it is still the best source.  I had my fingers and toes crossed.  
  
 While they provided a tracking number, I couldn't actually get tracking information, so it was a total surprise when they showed up.  This  guy claimed he tested all of them on a L3-3 tester.  I was skeptical, but paid the ~$1/tube premium and pulled the trigger.  I expected 25% fall out just from gassy tubes, but as I said 8 of 8 were great.
  
 He has some pairs and quads available if you want to test out a smaller qty.  Alternatively AtmaSphere sells them for $25 tested and guaranteed.


----------



## GrindingThud

I find this useful for tracking Russian tube shipments: http://www.russianpost.ru/tracking20/English.htm


----------



## ACHiPo

grindingthud said:


> I find this useful for tracking Russian tube shipments: http://www.russianpost.ru/tracking20/English.htm


 
 Good to know for future reference.  Unfortunately these came from Ukraine and were sent via Ukraine Post.  I tried a bunch of tracking sites, all showed the package as in the system, but none showed the location.


----------



## Badas

achipo said:


> That's why I posted this--just trying to give what seems to be a good guy some good press.  Did you try to get a refund from your guy?
> 
> There are a lot of Ukrainian dealers.  I'd heard a lot of bad stories, but Ralph Karsten of AtmaSphere seemed to think it is still the best source.  I had my fingers and toes crossed.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I just looked it up. Yes I have purchased two lots of Russian tubes. Both were different dealers.
  
 I purchased a quad set from a guy that said they were matched to 0.6%. I don't know if they were matched to 0.6% (probably not) but two out of the four were very noisy. So out of all the purchase I ended up with one pair. I don't think I would bother with that tube again.
  
 In saying that I have had the same luck with the RCA 6AS7G. I just have one quiet set out of many sets I have purchased.
  
 I have some very good sets of Tung-Sol, Chatham, Raytheon and Salvania 6AS7G's. Plus Bendix, Mullard (I'm using now), GE 6080 and Tung-Sol 7236.
  
 I should be okay for a while.
  
 The Mullard 6080 is coming along nicely. Seems to do nothing wrong and a lot of things very well to great. A all round good performer.
 Seems to be the King of nothing but a close second on most qualities.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> achipo said:
> 
> 
> > That's why I posted this--just trying to give what seems to be a good guy some good press.  Did you try to get a refund from your guy?
> ...


 
 Damm, your really not lucky with your russian tubes i have 6 different types of russian tubes  from 6N23P's to 6H13C and never had a problem with them ,touch wood ,


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I have bought hundreds of these Russian tubes over the years and other than one delivery with 3 breakages and 4 missing (quickly refunded) I have never had a duff one. Generally they are excellent tubes. My last noisey 6AS7G / 6080 was an GEC but think it just needs a clean  Pretty rare stuff in general.


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> Damm, your really not lucky with your russian tubes i have 6 different types of russian tubes  from 6N23P's to 6H13C and never had a problem with them ,touch wood ,


 
  
 Yeah. My last sets were from the most expensive seller on ebarf and advertised that matching to 0.6%. I thought I would get decent tubes. Well they were. The seller had taken so much care to write down all the testing results and tubes were in beautiful condition. One set was golden. The others I burnt in for at least 50 hours. They were not improving but getting worse. Very noisy.
  
 I just won't bother with them again. There is better tubes.
  


nic rhodes said:


> I have bought hundreds of these Russian tubes over the years and other than one delivery with 3 breakages and 4 missing (quickly refunded) I have never had a duff one. Generally they are excellent tubes. My last noisey 6AS7G / 6080 was an GEC but think it just needs a clean  Pretty rare stuff in general.


 
  
 I would agree. I have had bad luck. My first batch were no doubt seconds. They should not have been sold. I bet they were made and disreguarded as seconds. Just some doggy seller picked them up and sold. It happens. Second batch were a lot better and I had a 50/50 result. So not that bad.
  
 I have also had a bad run with RCA 6AS7G. I purchased 4 sets and got one set that is useable.
  
 I'm not upset. Who cares. I have just had a bad run.


----------



## Lorspeaker

mikelap said:


> Damm, your really not lucky with your russian tubes i have 6 different types of russian tubes  from 6N23P's to 6H13C and never had a problem with them ,touch wood ,


 
  
  
 so far mine are all good from eastern europe too... crossing my legs


----------



## Dogmatrix

I can put in a good word for the east also , positive experiences from Russia , Ukraine , Bulgaria and Romania . Postage times have been a bit of a lottery but everything has turned up eventually .
 Like Badas I have also had a batch of noisy RCA 6as7g tubes so I go for the CRC USN 6080 if I want to use RCA , never had a bad one of those and they are super cheap
 One 5998 from a local that was completely dead in one half , he took it back without any hassle
 Was buying WE421a tubes for a while they have all been perfect I have a nice stash of early 60's NOS but the prices have gone crazy lately so that adventure is over
 Hunting Chatham 6520's lately they are very nice and still quite cheap


----------



## Badas

I really like the Tung-Sol 6AS7G pictured on the outside of my amp. It seems to come in two versions. A RCA rebadge and their own version based on the Chatham 6AS7G.
  
 Does anyone know where I can pick up extra's of these? Not really available on eBarf at the moment.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> I really like the Tung-Sol 6AS7G pictured on the outside of my amp. It seems to come in two versions. A RCA rebadge and their own version based on the Chatham 6AS7G.
> 
> Does anyone know where I can pick up extra's of these? Not really available on eBarf at the moment.


 
  
*Patience*. While nowhere near as common as RCAs, these Chatham/Tung-Sols are certainly not rare. Check eBay 2 or 3 times every day, and eventually, perhaps in a week or two, or a month, some will turn up.
  
 I have patiently searched eBay for more than a year for some tubes, In one case, I wasn't sure it had even been manufactured, but I kept looking, and then one day, one popped up. 
  
 In my experience, if you are very patient, you will eventually find what you are looking for at a price you are willing to pay.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> I really like the Tung-Sol 6AS7G pictured on the outside of my amp. It seems to come in two versions. A RCA rebadge and their own version based on the Chatham 6AS7G.
> 
> Does anyone know where I can pick up extra's of these? Not really available on eBarf at the moment.


 
 Bought a pair of Chathams 6AS7 from this seller awhile back maybe he still has some left you will have to email him there advertised at $20.00 each but doesnt mean he has them still here's link          http://www.vacuumtubes.net/?source=google&gclid=CO-qlKLYq64CFQPe4Aod8nz_QQ


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> Bought a pair of Chathams 6AS7 from this seller awhile back maybe he still has some left you will have to email him there advertised at $20.00 each but doesnt mean he has them still here's link          http://www.vacuumtubes.net/?source=google&gclid=CO-qlKLYq64CFQPe4Aod8nz_QQ


 

 Thanks for that. I will give them a try.


----------



## No_One411

badas said:


> Thanks for that. I will give them a try.


 
 Any luck with the Chatham 6AS7s? 
  
 I called them (great service BTW), and they said that they only had a couple of Chatham 6AS7s left, and none of them tested well enough for them to sell at $20.
  
 The Mullards are mislabeled as 6AS7s, but you'll receive 6080 styling tubes. They do seem to have the Tung Sol 5998s in stock, which is nice cause those are getting much harder to find.


----------



## Badas

no_one411 said:


> Any luck with the Chatham 6AS7s?
> 
> I called them (great service BTW), and they said that they only had a couple of Chatham 6AS7s left, and none of them tested well enough for them to sell at $20.
> 
> The Mullards are mislabeled as 6AS7s, but you'll receive 6080 styling tubes. They do seem to have the Tung Sol 5998s in stock, which is nice cause those are getting much harder to find.




Yeah. I'm chatting to them. No Tung-Sol 6AS7g's left. Thinking about other options. Also talking to Langrex. 

Listening to a pair of Brimar 6080's at the moment. It looks like a Sylvania re-badge. It has a foreign BVA stamped on it. I'm enjoying it a lot. Just has a little noise in it so I'm waiting to see if that goes with burn.


----------



## Badas

What is it with 6080 / 6AS7G power tubes? It is nice that manufacturers design amps around popular easy to get tubes. However they are a real gamble if you get quiet noise free versions.
  
 Here is my history of them:
  
 Tung-Sol 7236 = Quiet
 GE 6080 = Quiet
 Sylvania 6080 (2 sets) = Both noisy
 Bendix 6080 Graphite plates = Quiet
 Mullard 6080 = Noisy
 RCA 6AS7G (4 sets) = 3 sets noisy, 1 set quiet but with a hum
 Raytheon 6AS7G (2 sets) = 1 set noisy, 1 set with hum
 Sylvania 6AS7G = Quiet with hum
 Svetlana 6AS7G (9 sets) = 2 sets quiet, 7 sets noisy
 Tung-Sol 6AS7G = Quiet with hum
 Chatham Tung-Sol 6AS7G (3 sets) = Quiet
  
 Not a very good track record. 8 quiet, 4 quiet with a background hum, 14 noisy. That is more than 50% noisy. I am getting very annoyed at buying noisy 6080/6AS7G tubes.
  
 If anyone knows of a nice reasonable priced 6080/6AS7G type tube that is nice sounding (doesn't have to be the best) but quiet please tell me.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi Badas.
  
 WOW!...Boy have you been unlucky, methinks (couldn't be something to do with the rest of your set-up/environment/mains power supply at all?)...
  
 3 sets of quiet Chatham/ Tung Sols? - many would be over the moon with just those, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The Russian 6N13Ss that came with my new Feliks-Audio Elise are extremely good (AND quiet), and are very reasonably priced...
  
 Good luck with your quest...or is it time to sit back and enjoy the really good 'quiet' tubes you already possess?...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (This hobby is TOO addictive!!..).


----------



## Ultrainferno

badas said:


> If anyone knows of a nice reasonable priced 6080/6AS7G type tube that is nice sounding (doesn't have to be the best) but quiet please tell me.


 
  
 6080WA, like the French Thomson witht the copper internal can be gotten very cheap and they're very nice tubes (with good build quality)


----------



## whirlwind

I scored a pair of Chatham 6AS7G today.


----------



## Badas

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Badas.
> 
> WOW!...Boy have you been unlucky, methinks (couldn't be something to do with the rest of your set-up/environment/mains power supply at all?)...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah I have 8 quiet sets. Some I like, the Chatham 6AS7G's for example. However my quest has been for a lifetimes supply of tubes.
  
 I have 14 Brimar 5Z4GY rectifiers, 6 Mullard GZ32 rectifiers. Plus others.
 20 sets of NU 6F8G drive tubes, 1 set of RCA 6F8G's, 2 sets of RCA 6SN7 Greyglass and two sets of RCA 6SN7 clearglass.
  
 So eight sets of power tubes is not enough. If I find something I like and they are not noisy I will by 12 sets. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


ultrainferno said:


> 6080WA, like the French Thomson witht the copper internal can be gotten very cheap and they're very nice tubes (with good build quality)


 
  
 Done. I will give them a go. I have spent time studying those tubes. Do look interesting.
  


whirlwind said:


> I scored a pair of Chatham 6AS7G today.


 

 Congrats. Ebarf I guess. I saw a pair there.


----------



## JamieMcC

badas said:


> What is it with 6080 / 6AS7G power tubes? It is nice that manufacturers design amps around popular easy to get tubes. However they are a real gamble if you get quiet noise free versions.
> 
> Here is my history of them:
> 
> ...


 
  
 I would also suspect you have some intermittent external interference issues perhaps mains variations, internet power line converters, light dimmer switches dirty tube pins etc all have a bad reputation for such behaviour or perhaps RF interference for such mixed performance.


----------



## Badas

jamiemcc said:


> I would also suspect you have some intermittent external interference issues perhaps mains variations, internet power line converters, light dimmer switches dirty tube pins etc all have a bad reputation for such behaviour or perhaps RF interference for such mixed performance.


 
  
 Would that effect only some tubes tho?
  
 Some are quiet and not effected.
  
 I also will have one quiet and one noisy in the same brand/make.
  
 I have also thought of that and when I get a noisy tube I switch from one side to the other. The noisy tube switches.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> jamiemcc said:
> 
> 
> > I would also suspect you have some intermittent external interference issues perhaps mains variations, internet power line converters, light dimmer switches dirty tube pins etc all have a bad reputation for such behaviour or perhaps RF interference for such mixed performance.
> ...


 
 Tubes can be pretty damn finicky and each tube can act different, at least from my experience.....cell phone, cordless phone....heck anything electrical can disturb a vacuum tube.....that being said....certain tubes can just be noisy because of the tube....it can drive you nuts


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Tubes can be pretty damn finicky and each tube can act different, at least from my experience.....cell phone, cordless phone....heck anything electrical can disturb a vacuum tube.....that being said....certain tubes can just be noisy because of the tube....it can drive you nuts


 

 I have not ever had a rectifier or a drive tube make a noise and I have rolled so many.
  
 6080 / 6AS7G's have driven me nutz.
  
 I will grab a noisy pair in the weekend and move my amp to the other side of the Home Theater where there is nothing electrical and try.
  
 Remote control lights affect the wires on the 6F8G adapters. I know that. But that is okay as I listen with no lights on.


----------



## whirlwind

It is my understanding that getting quiet 6AS7's can be a crap shoot.....I am new to these tubes, so I really can not confirm that.....I am just hoping to get some quiet one's myself.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> It is my understanding that getting quiet 6AS7's can be a crap shoot.....I am new to these tubes, so I really can not confirm that.....I am just hoping to get some quiet one's myself.


 

 Those Chathams you just got are gold. So rock solid. I have never heard anything wrong with them. Plus I really like the sound.
  
 I thought about just waiting for each auction of those to come up (they come up rarely) and then grab each time. We might be in competition dude. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 However I think I'm to impatient and just want to buy a bulk lot that are quiet.
  
 I will give those Thompson's a test next. Buy 4 and test. They work then I will buy 20.


----------



## JamieMcC

I had a intermittent noise a while back that was driving me nuts after about a week of pulling my hair out I worked out it was a electric oil filled radiator in different room in the house, every time its thermostat tripped it on it caused a low level background buzzzzz 20-30mins later it would trip off and the buzz was gone.


----------



## Badas

jamiemcc said:


> I had a intermittent noise a while back that was driving me nuts after about a week of pulling my hair out I worked out it was a electric oil filled radiator in different room in the house, every time its thermostat tripped it on it caused a low level background buzzzzz 20-30mins later it would trip off and the buzz was gone.


 

 Yeah that happens. I really don't think it is interference or else all tubes would be doing it. Crikey my 6F8G wires would be going nutz.
  

  
 The fact that I have quiet tubes suggest to me it is not the system but the tubes themselves.
  
 I will run the test tho. I will stick in a noisy set and move the amp somewhere else.


----------



## Dogmatrix

I have quite a few noisy 6as7g tubes mostly RCA , around 30% of my collection have noise and micro-phonics
 Generally 6080 type are much more reliable I have six and all are good
 Just scored a nos GEC 6080 for $20 inc shipping
 I wonder how often we bid against each other , I was the $49.50 bid on those Chathams BTW


----------



## Badas

Do you guys in the US bid on UK auctions?
  
 Being in New Zealand it makes no difference to me which country to buy from. All auctions have expensive freight. UK being a little bit cheaper than the US.
  
 Point is there is some good stuff in the UK as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I probably shouldn't be telling.


----------



## Dogmatrix

I am in Aus so like you I will bid on anything that will ship OS
 That GEC I just bought is shipping from Germany


----------



## Badas

dogmatrix said:


> I am in Aus so like you I will bid on anything that will ship OS
> That GEC I just bought is shipping from Germany


 

 I would love to get my hands on a set. Post a pic when you get mate.


----------



## JamieMcC

Shameless plug, but on topic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GEC-6080-Mullard-6080-tube-valve-TESTED-/121599457682?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c4fe47992
  
 Both nice sounding quiet tubes £0.99p start I have some others listed as well and if I can bring my self to let them go there could be some NOS WE421a's in original box's and packing and GEC 6AS7G round bases up for grabs but just cant seem to bring myself to list them at the moment.


----------



## Dogmatrix

badas said:


> I would love to get my hands on a set. Post a pic when you get mate.


 

 Will do
 6as7g round base GEC as posted above is really the ideal but that aint gonna happen for $20 so I will make do with the 6080 version


----------



## Badas

jamiemcc said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GEC-6080-Mullard-6080-tube-valve-TESTED-/121599457682?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c4fe47992
> 
> Both nice sounding quiet tubes £0.99p start I have some others listed as well and if I can bring my self to let them go there could be some NOS WE421a's in original box's and packing and GEC 6AS7G round bases up for grabs but just cant seem to bring myself to list them at the moment.


 

 I looked at that auction 10 minutes before you posted. Tell us if or when you list the others.


----------



## hdtv00

I wonder if this was ok purchase. I paid $30 shipped for
 1 5998 TUNG-SOL 1950's Hi Fi Amplifier Tube Date Code 322451-3 
 Tube Tested on a TV-7D/U Tester
 40 is Minimum
 Tube Tests 54-52
 There are a few small pieces of loose glass inside of the tube, but this does not effect the performance.
  
 I figured it could be a back up for my current one I use now even though it tests lowish it would be an ok backup for $30.


----------



## Badas

badas said:


> Yeah that happens. I really don't think it is interference or else all tubes would be doing it. Crikey my 6F8G wires would be going nutz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well. I did the test.
  
 I think I owe some members apologies and thanks.
  
*Sorry and Thanks*.




  
 I moved my amp with noisy power tubes in. They weren't 100% quiet but a lot lot better.
  
 When I re placed my amp back on the rack I noticed the signal cables (balanced XLR) and the Woo power cable were on top each other.
 With the amp power on with noisy tubes and headphones plugged in it was producing the noise again. I reached back and just moved the power cable.
  
 Instantly in went quiet.
  
 So you guys were correct. I feel like a fool.
  

  
 Most of my previously noisy tubes are now dead quiet. A few others have drastically reduced noise levels. They are still detectable but tolerable.
  
 Thanks Guys.


----------



## JamieMcC

badas said:


> Well. I did the test.
> 
> I think I owe some members apologies and thanks.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey that's great result, well done for persevering with it.


----------



## hdtv00

If a tube tests *54/50  min being 40* how long do you guys think it might last in normal use. Few years, months?


----------



## rosgr63

If you carry out a life test, then you'll have a better idea.


----------



## MIKELAP

Got a pair of these Sylvania labelled 6AS7GA and saw these GEC 6080 CV2984 (post#317) structure looks to be similar  any opinions .


----------



## gibosi

I have both. And they are not the same...  As another headfier put it, The GEC's kick Sylvania's butt big time!


----------



## gibosi

And up close, you can see that that they are indeed constructed somewhat differently.


----------



## JamieMcC

There is bunch of GEC A1834/6as7g curved and straight based listed on ebay UK  by a dealer but be warned you had better be sitting down if you are going to take a look 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Puzzles

210 GBP... That is far too much imho, even though these come from very old production lines. Most auctions on eBay end with $180 per tube and that's an inflated eBay price already. I recently got two very strong noise-free pairs for € 240 per pair and a single tube for $ 160 (all straight base), and then a single tube with cup base for € 110. But 210 _pounds _for a single tube, that's almost two pairs of 5998s.


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> Got a pair of these Sylvania labelled 6AS7GA and saw these GEC 6080 CV2984 (post#317) structure looks to be similar  any opinions .




As above the Sylvania would not be the same. However it is a nice sounding tube. I have tried a lot even the TS 7236 and Bendix 6080 Graphite plates and I think it is the nicest in the ones I have tried. It has a warmth and liquid sound that is rare in 6080's. Roll it and enjoy. 

In the last week I have decided it will be my tube of choice and plan to buy 13 sets. I have two sets now.


----------



## lost&confused

puzzles said:


> 210 GBP... That is far too much imho, even though these come from very old production lines. Most auctions on eBay end with $180 per tube and that's an inflated eBay price already. I recently got two very strong noise-free pairs for € 240 per pair and a single tube for $ 160 (all straight base), and then a single tube with cup base for € 110. But 210 _pounds _for a single tube, that's almost two pairs of 5998s.


 
  
 I just bought it


----------



## Dogmatrix

Couple of picks of my $20 GEC as promised

 I believe code TL  Z makes it December 1962 Hammersmith
 Decal is illegible but the pins showed no signs of use and there is no scorching on the mica or carbon on the glass so could be NOS
 Have only tried it with my HD650 (which I use to test new tubes as I don't like to risk the HD800 ) but sounds good so far
 Had a slight buzz in the left channel that faded to nothing after warm up


----------



## Mechans1

I don't subscribe to this thread so it is new to me.  I use an amp with 2 6080/5998/421A   output tubes.   The input is a 6SN7 which I have been collecting  (a huge hoard at this point)and listening to for over a decade.  I found the RCA 6080 tubes I could buy, to be the best of the small collection of 6080s I have.  I currently  prefer the Tung Sol Chatham  5998s over them, and even over the vaunted WE 421As I have  which I think are well past their prime.
 Do you think the Bendix and the Osram   6080 tubes are  in a league of their own and worth seeking out.   Apparently some of you think they are worth it.


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> I don't subscribe to this thread so it is new to me.  I use an amp with 2 6080/5998/421A   output tubes.   The input is a 6SN7 which I have been collecting  (a huge hoard at this point)and listening to for over a decade.  I found the RCA 6080 tubes I could buy, to be the best of the small collection of 6080s I have.  I currently  prefer the Tung Sol Chatham  5998s over them, and even over the vaunted WE 421As I have  which I think are well past their prime.
> Do you think the Bendix and the Osram   6080 tubes are  in a league of their own and worth seeking out.   Apparently some of you think they are worth it.




Good question. I would like to know the answer to that also.

Can I ask about the RCA 6080? Are you saying they are okay? It is one I have dismissed in trying. Did you try the Sylvania 6080? I really like that tube.

I have the Bendix graphite plates 6080. Along with the Tung-Sol 7236 I don't rate them. I found them boring. Very SS sounding. I know theire are some that hunt that kinda thing but I don't see the point in a SS sounding tube and prefer lush silky sound.


----------



## Badas

What is all the fuss about the Tung-Sol 6520? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I understand there are some that hunt them.
  
 They look the same as the 6AS7G. I couldn't spot a internal difference.
 Do they sound different?
  
*Tung-Sol 6520*
  

  
*Tung-Sol / Chatham 6AS7G*


----------



## Ultrainferno

I'm one of those guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The 6520 is supposed to be a selection of the 6AS7G with the best specs. No idea if that's true though.
 I can't hear a difference with the TS/Chatham tubes anyway. The last 6520's I got were Dumont branded but according to Rob/Skylab they were only built by TS


----------



## punit

badas said:


> I have the Bendix graphite plates 6080. Along with the Tung-Sol 7236 I don't rate them. I found them boring. Very SS sounding. I know theire are some that hunt that kinda thing but I don't see the point in a SS sounding tube and prefer lush silky sound.


 
 True.. Sound is personal preference. For me the WA22 is already lush silky + if you add to that more lush silky tubes + LCD 3 - to me that is death by Lush Silky 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...but I totally get where you are coming from. I chase the opposite side of the spectrum (the HD 800 kind of sound) fast paced SS sound but with bit of Tube magic (some fools call it distortion 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I am one of those guys who really likes the Bendix graphite plates 6080 & Tung-Sol 7236.


----------



## MoatsArt

Give me SS speed and extension and tube mids - That's why I love the Tung Sol 7236


----------



## gibosi

Recently picked up a slightly mismatched pair of slotted Bendix 6080. The pictures weren't all that good, so I didn't catch that the top spacer in one is ceramic whereas in the other it is mica. A picture of the tops showed 6080WB 230 on one and 6080WB 244 on the other, manufactured only 14 weeks apart? So I pulled the trigger.
  
 IMO, these sound extremely good and I am very pleased. However, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think: "different construction = different sound". But as I have only one of each, I have no way to effectively compare them.....


----------



## Puzzles

gibosi said:


> Recently picked up a slightly mismatched pair of slotted Bendix 6080. The pictures weren't all that good, so I didn't catch that the top spacer in one is ceramic whereas in the other it is mica. A picture of the tops showed 6080WB 230 on one and 6080WB 244 on the other, manufactured only 14 weeks apart? So I pulled the trigger.
> 
> IMO, these sound extremely good and I am very pleased. However, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think: "different construction = different sound". But as I have only one of each, I have no way to effectively compare them.....


 
  
 Don't worry, the spacers don't matter sonically. By immense luck I got a dozen of 6080WB's and while there are slight differences in sound, I don't relate that to plates or spacer arrangement.  You have two tubes that I'd assume to be the same build. These are the tubes with the usual YY WW (year, week) date code, which have slotted plates of variable shape (chamfered or on-chamfered edges; sometimes solid plates) and copper grid posts. There's a very similar build of which the date code is followed by a three-digit suffix that begins with R and ends with two numbers (e.g. 6246 R35). That build also features slotted plates (often) but steel grid posts instead of copper posts. Its sound is a little different (slightly recessed mids, a tiny little bit thinner overall). And then there's a third build with purple ceramic spacers and solid plates. Similar to the R-suffix, the date code is followed by a three digit "S"-code. It is probably the type  which is said to be the "worse" sounding type – I'd say it is just a little gentler. BTW, if the tube was branded for other parties, the R/S codes get lost. 
 Now, within each of these three (or more) lines, it seems that the spacer arrangement and plate shape varies constantly. It's not even that Bendix used mica spacers from some point, it seems more like a mood thing. Anyway, you have a good pair with the same sound.


----------



## gibosi

Thanks for sharing your knowledge of the Bendix 6080. For sure, I am very pleased with the way they sound in my amp, so will just relax and enjoy.


----------



## mikoss

How is the Bendix vs the GEC 6080? Any major sonic differences in presentation?


----------



## gibosi

I have not had the time to compare these tubes in any detail, but my general impressions mirror what others have written. I find both to have very good detail, spatial resolution and air. However, the GEC seems to be a bit dryer, more analytical and airy. On the other hand, I find the slotted Bendix to be more similar to the 5998, with very good bass and just enough warmth to give vocals a nice fullness and good body. Both are excellent and given that I haven't had much ear-time with either, I don't have a favorite.
  
 (A Glenn OTL with a Mullard GZ32 rectifier and Lorenz C3g drivers)


----------



## akart

Folks - Where can I find an excellent pair of matched RCA 6AS7G? Also, what do the numbers "X/Y, minimum A/B" mean? Should I be looking for matched tubes with these readings same or similar for both tubes?
  
 As an example, here's a listing from eBay:
 Tube 1 Gm: 57 / 58
 Tube 2 Gm: 57/ 59
 Minimum 40/40
  
 How can I tell if these tubes are well matched, or not-so-well matched?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## MJS242

akart said:


> Folks - Where can I find an excellent pair of matched RCA 6AS7G? Also, what do the numbers "X/Y, minimum A/B" mean? Should I be looking for matched tubes with these readings same or similar for both tubes?
> 
> As an example, here's a listing from eBay:
> Tube 1 Gm: 57 / 58
> ...


 
  
 A 6AS7G has two triodes (dual triode). The two values for a single tube represent measurements for each triode.  The minimum usually represents the minimum good triode value for whatever tube tester is being used (each tester is different).
  
 Electrically matched tubes would have the same/similar triode measurements.
  
 If you want to take the obsessiveness a step further you can also get tubes that have matching manufacturer date codes.


----------



## Mechans1

akart said:


> Folks - Where can I find an excellent pair of matched RCA 6AS7G? Also, what do the numbers "X/Y, minimum A/B" mean? Should I be looking for matched tubes with these readings same or similar for both tubes?
> 
> As an example, here's a listing from eBay:
> Tube 1 Gm: 57 / 58
> ...


 
 The numbers represent the health of the amplifying elements in the tube which is in the case of 6AS7Gs, are two sets of triodes. As a reminder that is an anode, a screen and a cathode times 2 in a single glass envelope. Keeping it simple the number tell you how well those individual triodes are doing their job.  The minimum number tells you that - on that tester - the a triode has to deliver a higher value to be considered "good" usable , OK etc..  It is a simple pass fail demarcation.
 Sometimes sellers will also know what the new nominal value should be (on that tester) as well and report that. 
 You want your tubes to be roughly the at same level to be considered "matched".  This is true for most situations where you cannot manipulate the bias current. The example you gave is a good match, you can't expect the tubes to be perfectly alike and the error built into the measurement although not given likely is +/ - 1, or more, on that meter for that tester.
 There are other aspects about a tube that are considered in matching, construction is important, but beside the obvious there are other electrical parameters that are used by some experienced vendors.
 One way to get good matching is to rely upon well established seller.  I just buy a couple of same testing tubes and see how they sound.  You don't always come up with winners but most of the time I have. You might have to develop a stomach for some risk. I expect there are sellers who will do matching for you and may let you return them if they aren't what you wanted.  Most don't offer that kind of security and you will most likely pay a premium for it.
 I will look up a tube seller who is well established and a careful tester who sells NOS. I just can't think of his name right now.


----------



## Mechans1

I don't know if he sells 6AS7Gs but the guy I was thinking of is www.audiotubes.com  Also goes by Brent Jesse Recording.  He sells NOS tubes and is well regarded.
 If you can tolerate current production then you may want to contact  Jim McShane  at McShane Design, over on Audio Asylum.  He matches very carefully upon several factors.  He has some NOS but don't know about 6AS7G.s. He is really good at what he does, I needed an octet of matched tubes and  was very happy with what I got.
 Have you considered 6080s or 5998s?


----------



## mikoss

If you're ok going the eBay route, matched pairs of new old stock RCA 6AS7G tubes are sold fairly cheap and most sellers offer returns. eBay themselves have tilted the service towards buyers, so it may be inconvenient to buy tubes that have issues, but you pretty much have a satisfaction guarantee. 

I've personally bought two pairs of them in the last 6 months, for around $40 per pair.


----------



## rnadell

I have a pair of the RCA's that came with my Glenn otl and while the sound quality
 is acceptable they are noisy.
 I purchased a pair of NOS GEC 6080's and really liked them, quiet and great detail and bass.
 However after one year one blew up so I am looking for a replacement.
 What about the TG Chatham's?
 Also are the GEC 6as7's a good bet?
 Thanks


----------



## whirlwind

rnadell said:


> I have a pair of the RCA's that came with my Glenn otl and while the sound quality
> is acceptable they are noisy.
> I purchased a pair of NOS GEC 6080's and really liked them, quiet and great detail and bass.
> However after one year one blew up so I am looking for a replacement.
> ...


 
 GEC 6AS7's are suppose to be wonderful....but they are pricey!


----------



## mikoss

whirlwind said:


> GEC 6AS7's are suppose to be wonderful....but they are pricey!



Oh $500/tube isn't *that* pricey...


----------



## gibosi

rnadell said:


> I have a pair of the RCA's that came with my Glenn otl and while the sound quality
> is acceptable they are noisy.
> I purchased a pair of NOS GEC 6080's and really liked them, quiet and great detail and bass.
> However after one year one blew up so I am looking for a replacement.
> ...


 
  
 I am not sure what you mean by "TG Chatham"??
  
 The following site can be useful regarding 6AS7-type output tubes:
  
 http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
  
 Unfortunately, all the pictures have been taken down, and there are some errors, for example, the Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 is most certainly not the same as the Sylvania 7236.
  
 Edit: Also, the GEC, Mullard and Telefunken 6080 are three very different tubes, not at all the same. However, by and large, this is good information.


----------



## akart

Thanks Folks - lot of good information here. 
  
 I have a WA2 with the stock tubes. I first want to listen to the tubes I have for a while. Then, planning to first get the RCA 6AS7Gs and then after I give them a good listen and if I want more, I might go for the TS 5998. But, to appreciate the higher costing tubes, I must first give the cheaper tubes a good listen.


----------



## hdtv00

You can get 5998's for $80-90 I wouldn't waste time hehe.


----------



## Mechans1

mikoss said:


> Oh $500/tube isn't *that* pricey...


 
 Yep it is a lot, but not when yu realize you have one of the few pairs still in existence on the planet never to be seen again as they were in their hey day.  Prices reflect this scarcity and people desire for them.  If that wasn't the case rest assured they would cost what a GE  or lesser tube would command.  Make your comment and don't buy em!
 Let me add that I am not endorsing the tubes at such a high price.  I was trying to explain the situations that arise when there is true scarce supply and potential demand, in more poetic terms.  I have not paid $500 for a tube or pair in over 15 years of tube collecting.


----------



## gibosi

Or don't pay $500/tube. In my experience, $400 - 500 for a pair is a more common price. And sometimes, eBay "sleeps" and you can get a pair for $150 like I did


----------



## whirlwind

^ Very nice, Ken ^


----------



## SonicTrance

Has anyone seen this ebay auction for 5998's? It looks like plain old 6AS7's if you look at the plates
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-16-PIECES-5998-CHATHAM-POWER-TRIODES-AWESOME-VINTAGE-USA-TUBES-6AS7-421A-/271855146869?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4bd45775


----------



## Mechans1

Yep these are just good old 6AS7Gs no domino 5998s in that batch.  Usually old guy radiola has the right goods but just out of reach.  In this case he has the wrong goods period. 
 Now I don't know how good or bad these 6AS7Gs sound, so they may be worth someones money.  Lord nows I have spent money on tubes of all flavors including 6080s and 6AS7gs.


----------



## SonicTrance

mechans1 said:


> Yep these are just good old 6AS7Gs no domino 5998s in that batch.  Usually old guy radiola has the right goods but just out of reach.  In this case he has the wrong goods period.
> Now I don't know how good or bad these 6AS7Gs sound, so they may be worth someones money.  Lord nows I have spent money on tubes of all flavors including 6080s and 6AS7gs.




That's what I thought. What I don't understand is the yellow printing on the tube bases. Obviously fake?


----------



## Badas

sonictrance said:


> That's what I thought. What I don't understand is the yellow printing on the tube bases. Obviously fake?


 

 No. Tube companies just printed anything to get stock out the door. Common practice. They would have been short of 5998's so they just printed up some 6AS7G's.
  
 I have 3 sets of these tubes. They are not bad sounding. A little nicer than the RCA 6AS7G. Just a tad lean for my taste. However there are a lot of fans of this tube.
  
 I've seen this tube labeled Chatham and Tung-Sol.


----------



## SonicTrance

badas said:


> No. Tube companies just printed anything to get stock out the door. Common practice. They would have been short of 5998's so they just printed up some 6AS7G's.
> 
> I have 3 sets of these tubes. They are not bad sounding. A little nicer than the RCA 6AS7G. Just a tad lean for my taste. However there are a lot of fans of this tube.
> 
> I've seen this tube labeled Chatham and Tung-Sol.




Yes, I've heard that the Chatham 6AS7G's are good. Bought a pair myself a little while ago, sadly only one of them is working.


----------



## Skylab

The 5998 was a computer tube. It's possible that those tubes were very late production and are 5998 specs even though they are 6AS7G style plates.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Hi guys, 
  
 I don't suppose anyone knows of a reputable retailer with stocks of Tung Sol 5998s ?  
  
 Unfortunately vacuumtubes.net are out of stock. 
  
 Jeb.


----------



## Mechans1

I never knew they had them, I would have bought them if I knew.  I had to do the eBay shuffle and buy what I could.  Fortunately I ran into some very good Chatams which sound great.  I also tried to buy WE 421As but only ended up with  one decent tube.  Given the Chatams beautiful sound I stopped looking for 421As .  It seems people have no qualms about selling burned out crap to their fellow tube roller.  I won't,  at least not for now, I hope I never do and haven't for over 12 years of tube rolling/collecting . So I will hold on to the weak, noisy, truly shot tube, for demonstration purposes only. Yes I know Caveat Emptor! = Buyer Beware.
 If you do find someone who has stock of 5998s let us know so I can buy a back up pair. I will do the same for you.  Unfortunately  it doesn't seem that headphone amps are getting any less popular, and these output tubes are well liked buy the circuit designers.


----------



## Jeb Listens

mechans1 said:


> I never knew they had them, I would have bought them if I knew.  I had to do the eBay shuffle and buy what I could.  Fortunately I ran into some very good Chatams which sound great.  I also tried to buy WE 421As but only ended up with  one decent tube.  Given the Chatams beautiful sound I stopped looking for 421As .  It seems people have no qualms about selling burned out crap to their fellow tube roller.  I won't,  at least not for now, I hope I never do and haven't for over 12 years of tube rolling/collecting . So I will hold on to the weak, noisy, truly shot tube, for demonstration purposes only. Yes I know Caveat Emptor! = Buyer Beware.
> If you do find someone who has stock of 5998s let us know so I can buy a back up pair. I will do the same for you.  Unfortunately  it doesn't seem that headphone amps are getting any less popular, and these output tubes are well liked buy the circuit designers.


 

 Thanks Mechans1 - and very sorry to hear about your bad experience but pleased you found a good tube in the Chathams.  Yes Vacuumtubes.net had the 5998s for $85 a go for a while, but I'm late to the tube party and they're sold out now.  
  
 Best of luck with your continuing tube journey, i'll let you know if I find any sellers with a stock of the 5998s. 
  
 Jeb.


----------



## abvolt

I've gotten some good deals on 5998A's is there much of a difference over the 5998's. Also does anyone know how the 5998's campare to the 7236 besides being much higher in price, just about got all the tubes for my soon to have wa22..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I've gotten some good deals on 5998A's is there much of a difference over the 5998's. Also does anyone know how the 5998's campare to the 7236 besides being much higher in price, just about got all the tubes for my soon to have wa22..




5998A. Are you talking about the GE type?

If so they are very average. 

The real 5998 is with the dimpled plates.


----------



## Mechans1

abvolt said:


> I've gotten some good deals on 5998A's is there much of a difference over the 5998's. Also does anyone know how the 5998's campare to the 7236 besides being much higher in price, just about got all the tubes for my soon to have wa22..


 

 The critical distinction for 5998s are indeed the "Domino" plates which I see are also called dimpled plates. In my system they are far and away the best tube it's type.  I also like the RCA and Mullard labeled  Philips 6080. The 5998s are much, much better. These domino  plates are also seen in the Western  Electric 421A. Even my true WEs aren't really any better than the WE 421As I have, because they seem to be a tad spent, for lack of any better expression.


----------



## SonicTrance

mechans1 said:


> The critical distinction for 5998s are indeed the "Domino" plates which I see are also called dimpled plates. In my system they are far and away the best tube it's type.  I also like the RCA and Mullard labeled  Philips 6080. The 5998s are much, much better. These domino  plates are also seen in the Western  Electric 421A. Even my true WEs aren't really any better than the WE 421As I have, because they seem to be a tad spent, for lack of any better expression.


 
 What do you mean by "true WE's"? From what I understand ALL 5998's were made by Tung-Sol. Even the ones labeled Western Electric?


----------



## Mechans1

sonictrance said:


> What do you mean by "true WE's"? From what I understand ALL 5998's were made by Tung-Sol. Even the ones labeled Western Electric?


 

 I  didn't know that all domino plate 5998s were only made by Tung Sol.  That being the case I  failed  at comparing them in makes perfect sense .- -It should have read--The true WE (branded) tubes I have aren't any better than the 5998s  I own. Because....the WEs (branded) ... are spent..
 It makes perfect sense, the two brands I own are both really Tung Sol.  They are just two sets of the same tube, one should not  sound better, than they other, except for the wear .  The WEs appear worn the Tung Sols are in much better shape.
 I am ignoring the fact that the tubes may be different depending on any changes that Tung Sol implemented over time.
 Thanks


----------



## abvolt

Thanks guess I should have known by the fact the 5998's are many times the cost of the 5998A's and hard to find..


----------



## Lorspeaker

those dimples on the left....and th erussian wingC, two of my fav.


----------



## Jeb Listens

lorspeaker said:


> those dimples on the left....and th erussian wingC, two of my fav.




The Winged Cs - that's the Svetlana 6N13S right? They seem like great value - is there any variation in construction/sound with this tube over the years or are they all broadly the same and every one a winner?

Also would anybody be able to give advice on the Sylvania 6080s and how they compare with the rest ? Are the "gold brand" ones the preferred choice and are they always marked as gold brand or GB on the tube somewhere?

Thanks!

Jeb


----------



## Lorspeaker

the one i bought from ebay says...60's.......v inexpensive, think i paid 10 or 12 bucks..? 
 there is no way i can verify what i really gotten hehe.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Great, thank you, Lorspeaker!


----------



## Badas

jeb listens said:


> The Winged Cs - that's the Svetlana 6N13S right? They seem like great value - is there any variation in construction/sound with this tube over the years or are they all broadly the same and every one a winner?
> 
> Also would anybody be able to give advice on the Sylvania 6080s and how they compare with the rest ? Are the "gold brand" ones the preferred choice and are they always marked as gold brand or GB on the tube somewhere?
> 
> ...


 

 I have purchased 15 sets of Svetlana 6N13s over the past 6 months. A big waste of $$'s. Yes they do sound nice if you can find a quiet set. They range from big blue flares with massive amounts of static radio sounding noise to a little crackle. Out of 15 sets I probably have one useable set. I thought I had two however a few weeks ago I stuck one of the good sets in and sure enough I could here a small amount of noise. I'm not sure if it is my amp (Woo WA22) but they are just no good.
  
 Sylvania 6080 is real nice. It was the first power tube I stuck in and didn't feel cold from it. It is warm and lush. It is what I use now. I have 4 sets. 2 labeled Brimar, 1 set labeled Telefunkin and 1 set labeled National. They are all Sylvania and have the same construction. So obviously a big re-labeled tube. Not sure they are gold brand (I doubt it), however they all sound the same.
  
 Pic below is the Sylvania tube labeled Telefunkin.


----------



## Jeb Listens

badas said:


> I have purchased 15 sets of Svetlana 6N13s over the past 6 months. A big waste of $$'s. Yes they do sound nice if you can find a quiet set. They range from big blue flares with massive amounts of static radio sounding noise to a little crackle. Out of 15 sets I probably have one useable set. I thought I had two however a few weeks ago I stuck one of the good sets in and sure enough I could here a small amount of noise. I'm not sure if it is my amp (Woo WA22) but they are just no good.
> 
> Sylvania 6080 is real nice. It was the first power tube I stuck in and didn't feel cold from it. It is warm and lush. It is what I use now. I have 4 sets. 2 labeled Brimar, 1 set labeled Telefunkin and 1 set labeled National. They are all Sylvania and have the same construction. So obviously a big re-labeled tube. Not sure they are gold brand (I doubt it), however they all sound the same.
> 
> Pic below is the Sylvania tube labeled Telefunkin.




Awesome, thanks for the informative post Badas. I guess the Svetlana performance must be pretty variable by the sounds of it.

Much appreciated and Happy listening.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> jeb listens said:
> 
> 
> > The Winged Cs - that's the Svetlana 6N13S right? They seem like great value - is there any variation in construction/sound with this tube over the years or are they all broadly the same and every one a winner?
> ...


 
 Are they similar to these mine are Sylvania 6080 WB


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> Are they similar to these mine are Sylvania 6080 WB


 
  
 Yeah. They are exactly the same.
  
 Have you tried in your WA22?
  
 Funny thing I found with my WA22 is that all power tubes sounded exactly the same until I rolled the driver tubes. It wasn't until I went to the 6F8G type NU or Tung-Sol Round plate (what I'm using now) that I noticed power tubes produced different sound.
  
 Really odd.
  
 These are the tubes I have tried. Brief description on sound that I noticed:
  
 GE 6080: Stock tube. Actually very nice. Neutral.
 Tung-Sol 7236: Neutral. Not to my liking.
 Bendix 6080 Graphite Plates: Neutral. Okay. Powerful. I just don't like neutral.
 Sylvania 6080: Labeled up National, Brimar and Telefunkin. Silky and warm. Nice.
 Chatham 6AS7G. Very nice. The nicest of the 6AS7G type. Just a tad too cold for me.
 RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon, Tung-Sol all the same as the RCA type 6AS7G type (I have all versions and they sound the same). Dull, no detail. Hum a lot
 Svetlana 6N13: Nice sound. Just so damn unstable.


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> I have purchased 15 sets of Svetlana 6N13s over the past 6 months. A big waste of $$'s. Yes they do sound nice if you can find a quiet set. They range from big blue flares with massive amounts of static radio sounding noise to a little crackle. Out of 15 sets I probably have one useable set. I thought I had two however a few weeks ago I stuck one of the good sets in and sure enough I could here a small amount of noise.* I'm not sure if it is my amp (Woo WA22) but they are just no good*.[...]




Having read through the thread, you seem to encounter a lot of substandard tubes. I'm not a NOS expert by any measure; I only have 7 pairs of 6AS7G/6080, including a pair of 6N13s, and they're all dead quiet. Perhaps you do need to have the amp looked at. Good luck.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> Having read through the thread, you seem to encounter a lot of substandard tubes. I'm not a NOS expert by any measure; I only have 7 pairs of 6AS7G/6080, including a pair of 6N13s, and they're all dead quiet. Perhaps you do need to have the amp looked at. Good luck.


 

 Yeah. But I also have a lot that work nice and quiet. So logic doesn't point to the amp. Rather the tubes themselves.
  
 Some of the Svetlana tubes have been really obvious it is the tubes as well. Blue internal flares. Like a light show. The obvious sign of vacuum problems. They are a hit or miss. The one set that seems okay were the cheapest. Others have been off the best sellers and they are rubbish.


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> Yeah.* But I also have a lot that work nice and quiet. So logic doesn't point to the amp.* Rather the tubes themselves.
> 
> Some of the Svetlana tubes have been really obvious it is the tubes as well. Blue internal flares. Like a light show. The obvious sign of vacuum problems. They are a hit or miss. The one set that seems okay were the cheapest. Others have been off the best sellers and they are rubbish.




I guess my logic sensors work a little differently. You know what's best for your system. Best of luck.


----------



## mikoss

Have you tried the GEC 6080? I much prefer it to the Sylvania tubes... It has a superb liquid midrange.


----------



## Badas

mikoss said:


> Have you tried the GEC 6080? I much prefer it to the Sylvania tubes... It has a superb liquid midrange.


 

 I would love to. I can't find or afford them right now.
  
 They would be my dream tube.
  
 I'm stocking up on Tung-Sol 6F8G Drivers right now. I have 8 sets and want 6 more. So that is what I will be spending my time and $$'s on over the next few months. After that I thought I would buy a set of GEC 6080's or the 6AS7G. Problem would be stocking up on them in the future tho. That is where the Sylvania gets attractive. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 I forgot to add. I have tried the Mullard 6080 as well. That is also a nice tube.


----------



## SonicTrance

skylab said:


> The 5998 was a computer tube. It's possible that those tubes were very late production and are 5998 specs even though they are 6AS7G style plates.


 
 I asked the seller about the tubes. Here's the answer if anyone is wondering.
  
"Hi We sell 200,000 tubes per month and have 165 million tubes in our warehouse.
Only The Chatham brand 5998 has the same specs. We have seen this other times. The military had a stock of dual triodes with certain specs for the gear.
when tested and retested . these tubes are very similar . these tubes have the same specs they are 5998 tubes with smooth plates .
we sold 1000s of these tubes and everyone that bought them were very happy. 
We have many odd ball rare types of tubes. Since we have been stock piling tubes for 50 years .
We have many stores worldwide and just about every type of tubes ever made.
If you need a certain type of tube let us know 
Thank you
Andy"


----------



## Badas

^

If he is selling 5998's with smooth plates at a premium price then he is being cheeky.
Only the dimple plates are worth the $$'s
I have seen smooth plate Chathams labeled 5998, 6AS7G and 6520. They are basically the same tube. They do not sound like the dimpled plate 5998 that everyone wants and refers to. The flat plats are nice just not as nice as dimpled plate.


----------



## SonicTrance

I agree. I also have Chatham 6AS7G's, 6520's as well as dimpled plate 5998's. I much prefer the 5998 over the other two.


----------



## Mechans1

Who is this seller with millions of tubes? I think I know which one I think it's the Florida tube seller.  Can anyone fill me in on this.  I haven't got the 6520s but do have the Mullard 6080, RCA 6080 smooth plate 6AS7Gs Relabeled Zearix , and Tung Sol domino plate 5998s and the 5998s are clearly my favorite , the Mullard are very good also- but not as good. 
 Sounds like I have to find some Sylvanias and GEC to try out.
 Just curious why are you stock piling so many Tung Sol 6F8G drivers?  .


----------



## SonicTrance

mechans1 said:


> Who is this seller with millions of tubes? I think I know which one I think it's the Florida tube seller.  Can anyone fill me in on this.  I haven't got the 6520s but do have the Mullard 6080, RCA 6080 smooth plate 6AS7Gs Relabeled Zearix , and Tung Sol domino plate 5998s and the 5998s are clearly my favorite , the Mullard are very good also- but not as good.
> Sounds like I have to find some Sylvanias and GEC to try out.
> Just curious why are you stock piling so many Tung Sol 6F8G drivers?  .




Here's the auction that we're talking about http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-16-PIECES-5998-CHATHAM-POWER-TRIODES-AWESOME-VINTAGE-USA-TUBES-6AS7-421A-/271855146869?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4bd45775


----------



## Badas

sonictrance said:


> Here's the auction that we're talking about http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-16-PIECES-5998-CHATHAM-POWER-TRIODES-AWESOME-VINTAGE-USA-TUBES-6AS7-421A-/271855146869?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4bd45775




Yeah. I saw that auction. Way over priced. $200 a set. Whatever.
There is nothing special about those tubes at that price. Sure they are nice. However they are not dimple plate nice.

I picked up two sets of those a few months ago for $60.


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> Who is this seller with millions of tubes? I think I know which one I think it's the Florida tube seller.  Can anyone fill me in on this.  I haven't got the 6520s but do have the Mullard 6080, RCA 6080 smooth plate 6AS7Gs Relabeled Zearix , and Tung Sol domino plate 5998s and the 5998s are clearly my favorite , the Mullard are very good also- but not as good.
> Sounds like I have to find some Sylvanias and GEC to try out.
> Just curious why are you stock piling so many Tung Sol 6F8G drivers?  .




Are you asking me?
Yes. I have 8 sets of Tung-Sol round plates now. 3 more sets just purchased and on the way and I will buy my last three sets next month.

I work on the premise of having 70 years stock of tubes. At least my lifetime. 14 sets of tubes at 5 years a set is 70 years. I have 14 sets of rectifiers also. I actually have 20 sets of various drive tubes ranging in different types. I found the Sylvania 6080 to be my favorite so I will eventually collect 14 sets of those also.

For the record the Tung-Sol round plate made the biggest improvement to my amp. I could never do without them now.


----------



## Jeb Listens

badas said:


> Are you asking me?
> Yes. I have 8 sets of Tung-Sol round plates now. 3 more sets just purchased and on the way and I will buy my last three sets next month.
> 
> I work on the premise of having 70 years stock of tubes. At least my lifetime. 14 sets of tubes at 5 years a set is 70 years. I have 14 sets of rectifiers also. I actually have 20 sets of various drive tubes ranging in different types. I found the Sylvania 6080 to be my favorite so I will eventually collect 14 sets of those also.
> ...




I guess it's fair to call this your "endgame" set up.

Congratulations on your truly epic collection. Tubes seem like a smart investment too.


----------



## Ultrainferno

old_guy_radiola
  
 I could have known. Don't just buy anything on ebay guys.


----------



## abvolt

I know ebay can be a very frustrating experience but I have gotten some really good tubes at great prices..


----------



## Shaffer

abvolt said:


> I know ebay can be a very frustrating experience but I have gotten some really good tubes at great prices..




Same here. It's a matter of finding seller(s) you can work with. For example, I bought a pair of used, somewhat mismatched 6SN7GTBs for $12.The PO lost the package. The seller, to make up for the inconvenience, hand-picked a pair of early-50s Sylvania 6SN7GTAs to send me as a replacement that are worth a hell of a lot more than $12 and sound terrific. There are good people out there.


----------



## Mechans1

Indeed it is very difficult to find certain desirable tubes stocked by regular tube sellers.  When they do have something I really wanted  (I don't want a lot now) the price was ridiculous.  Try to buy Metal Base Sylvania Ws in NOS condition from a tube seller outside of eBay.
 At least some of you have a reason/logic for hoarding tubes.   I just couldn't help myself when I saw something I thought was a good tube at a really good price I bought it. I also pursued certain tubes when I thought they were special.  Now I have to sell some .  I don't have a lot of Tung Sol Round plates maybe 3 or 4 pairs and a couple of those don't sound great. But I have a lot of other things.  The only things I don't have that I want  are Sylvania 6080s or GEC 6080s.


----------



## abvolt

I have many sets of the sylvania's there readily available I'd like a pair of the gec's also they seem to be hard to find & too spendy for me right now..


----------



## Mechans1

abvolt said:


> I have many sets of the sylvania's there readily available I'd like a pair of the gec's also they seem to be hard to find & too spendy for me right now..


 

 What is your take on the Sylvania sound?  Could you give me an idea of what they sound like.
 For the desk top amp which uses the 6080 family of tubes.  My favorites so far are the domino plate 5998 by Tung Sol, followed by the Mullard 6080.  The 6SN7s have their own thread but are also in my amp, making it a tube roller's delight. 
  
  
 p.s.(I am using the rare opaque grey glass cv1988 6SN7GTY by Brimar)


----------



## abvolt

I'm not much of an audiophile but all of the 6 pairs of gold sylvania's I've got sound very liquid and open I enjoy them I also have 3 pairs of 5998A's they seem to be more relaxed but still enjoyable, I was thinking about trying the mullard 6080's just to see, there cost is a lot more though, and I've already spent too much on tubes this year..


----------



## Badas

Just adding to the discussion on the Sylvania 6080. I have a pair of the Gold label, a pair of the regular, two pairs labeled Brimar and two labeled Telefunkin. They all look and sound the same.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> Just adding to the discussion on the Sylvania 6080. I have a pair of the Gold label, a pair of the regular, two pairs labeled Brimar and two labeled Telefunkin. They all look and sound the same.


 
 Thanks now I know how are the tung sol 5998's if you've tried them that is, I've been looking but wow spendy..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> Thanks now I know how are the tung sol 5998's if you've tried them that is, I've been looking but wow spendy..


 

 I'm in the same boat. I haven't got a pair of Tung-Sol 5998's. Too rich for me right now.
  
 I might try a pair of the 5998a you mentioned. I like relaxed. Is yours GE branded?


----------



## abvolt

Yes they are and affordable Lol..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> Yes they are and affordable Lol..


 

 These suckers aye?


----------



## Skylab

I think I have posted this before, but for those of you bargain hunting, these are actually nice sounding tubes, quiet, and true NOS/NIB...

http://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612


----------



## adeadcrab

thanks skylab!


----------



## adeadcrab

Just bought 4 of these GE 6AS7G tubes. Sadly the website wouldn't let me order 6 at a discount, they stated that they didn't have enough stock..


----------



## Mechans1

abvolt said:


> Thanks now I know how are the tung sol 5998's if you've tried them that is, I've been looking but wow spendy..


 

 I think the Tung Sol 5998s  are significantly different, in my opinion better than 6080s I have or have heard.  I would buy fewer multiples of tubes, it sounds like some of you are buying.  I know it is difficult not to buy "back ups" and back ups for the back ups, but in truth youi are prolly better off with variety instead of quantity.
 I could have bought NIB Mullard 6080s as a quad but opted for a pair after seeing my collection grow so large with other tubes..  You will see your collection can get inflated when you start using an amp that uses a tube you didn't have before such as the 6080 is to me now. Then the painful decisions about what to sell, even if you aren't using the tubes now. I just  don't like selling . 
 I want to try the gold brand Sylvanias and next month as my funds replenish I  will get some.
 Save your pennies for the TS 5998 they are good indeed.


----------



## abvolt

You make a very good point *Mechans1* I do have too many back ups of my back ups Lol, thanks and yes in a month or so i'm going to try a pair of the ts 5998's..


----------



## Dogmatrix

After a few months rolling various 6080 tubes GE five star , Tung-Sol , Mullard and GEC I returned to a Chatham 5998 sourced on EBay ($60)
 Although the difference is large , 5998 ,2399 and 421a have different spec to 6080 and 6as7 family after all I am not sure which I prefer
 For me a 6080 like the GEC is comparable to a fine watercolor full of subtle detail with a gentle calm flowing nature
 5998 on the other hand compares to a masterful oil , strong opaque color with bold contrast
 Have a TS 6520 on the way maybe it will bridge the gap between 5998 and 6080
 To relate to current discussion , in my own collection I definitely go for variety I have 2 5998 , 2 2399 , 2 421a , 3 6080 five star , 3 Bendix 6080 2 Mullard , 2 GEC etc
 I do understand the temptation for building a tube hoard particularly with prices rising , but lately I have been concentrating on the less common and only when the price is right
 Cheers everyone and may all your tubes be the strong quiet type


----------



## Shaffer

I have 4 pairs of 6080: JAN GE, 5-star GE, Sylvania WC (grey base), and metal base/red script RCAs (early-60?). The amp is a Feliks Elise. The Sylvanias sound the brightest and more 2-dimensional than the others. Really don't like them. The JAN GEs are boring, total meh. Less desirable as a listening tool than the Sylvanias. The 5-star GEs are more dynamic and extended, more clear and weighty. Very quiet. The RCAs, that cost me all of $14, sound best to my ears: they're smooth, clear, dimensional, well-articulated with a convincing presentation of space and depth.


----------



## SonicTrance

dogmatrix said:


> After a few months rolling various 6080 tubes GE five star , Tung-Sol , Mullard and GEC I returned to a Chatham 5998 sourced on EBay ($60)
> Although the difference is large , 5998 ,2399 and 421a have different spec to 6080 and 6as7 family after all I am not sure which I prefer
> For me a 6080 like the GEC is comparable to a fine watercolor full of subtle detail with a gentle calm flowing nature
> 5998 on the other hand compares to a masterful oil , strong opaque color with bold contrast
> ...


 
 I'm sure they will. I'm running 6520's right now in my LD MK6 and to my ears they sound exactly like the Chatham 6AS7G's. Nice and smooth sounding tubes. I do prefer the bigger sound stage and clarity of my 5998's though.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> I have 4 pairs of 6080: JAN GE, 5-star GE, Sylvania WC (grey base), and metal base/red script RCAs (early-60?). The amp is a Feliks Elise. The Sylvanias sound the brightest and more 2-dimensional than the others. Really don't like them. The JAN GEs are boring, total meh. Less desirable as a listening tool than the Sylvanias. The 5-star GEs are more dynamic and extended, more clear and weighty. Very quiet. The RCAs, that cost me all of $14, sound best to my ears: they're smooth, clear, dimensional, well-articulated with a convincing presentation of space and depth.




Nice info. Intersting I like the Sylvania's. I will get a pair of the RCA's to trial. They look like the same construction as the 6AS7G version. So I was avoiding as those suckers are very noisy in my amp. I will give them a blast tho.

Edit: just purchased a pair. They will take a while to get to me tho. I'm at the ass end of the world.


----------



## DavidA

badas said:


> Nice info. Intersting I like the Sylvania's. I will get a pair of the RCA's to trial. They look like the same construction as the 6AS7G version. So I was avoiding as those suckers are very noisy in my amp. I will give them a blast tho.
> 
> Edit: just purchased a pair. They will take a while to get to me tho. I'm at the ass end of the world.


 

 You live in Hawaii too?  Nah, just kidding but man does MassDrop take forever to get stuff here, still haven't gotten K7XX from last drop, was shipped out 3 weeks ago.


----------



## abvolt

Just got me a pair of vintage mullard 6080's from langrex and so far there the best sounding 6080's I own, running them with a pair of vintage sylvania's vt-99's and of course I'm using a brimar cv1863 this makes a real nice sounding combo..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> Just got me a pair of vintage mullard 6080's from langrex and so far there the best sounding 6080's I own, running them with a pair of vintage sylvania's vt-99's and of course I'm using a brimar cv1863 this makes a real nice sounding combo..




I have a similar combo. Brimar rectifier, Tung-Sol round plate 6F8G drivers and I have a pair of the Mullard 6080 power tubes from Langrex. Unfortunately I have disreguard as one is very noisy. I liked the sound but just couldn't get past the noise. I should throw them back in and listen.


----------



## abvolt

Too bad on the mullard, these ones sound real nice, I'd like a pair of the tung sol's 6f8g but cost for them is high at least for the next month or so. The sylvania's are really nice for the price also have a pair of rca's 1940 I think the sylvania's sound better. Haven't listened to the raytheon's  those were the highest priced 6f8g's I own 71. I will say I do love this hobby..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> Too bad on the mullard, these ones sound real nice, I'd like a pair of the tung sol's 6f8g but cost for them is high at least for the next month or so. The sylvania's are really nice for the price also have a pair of rca's 1940 I think the sylvania's sound better. Haven't listened to the raytheon's  those were the highest priced 6f8g's I own 71. I will say I do love this hobby..




I don't have the Sylvania 6F8G. I have 11 sets of Tung-Sol Round plates, 2 sets of NU (they are just as nice as the Tung-Sol), 1 set of RCA flat plate and 27 sets of RCA round plates (yip 27 sets(I purchased in bulk)).

Maybe I should give the Mullard another burn. I ran 50 hours and it did not improve. Maybe I should give it another 50 hour burn.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> I don't have the Sylvania 6F8G. I have 11 sets of Tung-Sol Round plates, 2 sets of NU (they are just as nice as the Tung-Sol), 1 set of RCA flat plate and 27 sets of RCA round plates (yip 27 sets(I purchased in bulk)).
> 
> Maybe I should give the Mullard another burn. I ran 50 hours and it did not improve. Maybe I should give it another 50 hour burn.


 
 That's sure a nice collection of 6f8g's you've got I only have 4 sets, 2 sets of the sylvania's (the cheapskates tung sol's) Lol, not sure if more time on your mullards would help probably not 50 hours is a long time with tubes that sound bad, you could do what everyone else does sell on ebay,


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> That's sure a nice collection of 6f8g's you've got I only have 4 sets, 2 sets of the sylvania's (the cheapskates tung sol's) Lol, not sure if more time on your mullards would help probably not 50 hours is a long time with tubes that sound bad, *you could do what everyone else does sell on ebay, *


 
  
 Nah! I couldn't do that.
  
 Only one tube is noisy. I might order 3 and use the single to make two sets. Might be a plan.
  
 I found my notes on the Mullard. Nice tubes. I really should give them another blast as I have never found a power tube I have been 100% happy with.
  
 My notes: Clean bass, Nice midrange, Treble is sweet. Doesn't do anything over the top well (not exceptional in any area). However it seems to do everything well. No weak areas.
  
 Would you agree with those notes?
  
 It might be the tube I'm looking for. With the Brimar 5Z4GY being so dynamic and lush, The Tung-Sol 6F8G roundplates being made by God then I really need a bang on neutral power tube.
  
 The Sylvania 6080 is one of my favorites. Very lush but as someone pointed out a little bright.
 I gave the RCA 6AS7g a run in the weekend. As I have ordered the RCA 6080 and I thought they might be similar. Too dark. As per RCA there is treble roll (their 6SN7's are good examples of treble roll). Nice bass and midrange, just too much treble detail loss. Smooth tubes tho. I thought one day I might try this power tube with a brighter driver. Might be nice.
  
 So I need something in the middle. Mullard might be it. I will roll the noisy set in and just observe the signature. If I like I will buy 3 more to evaluate. If I like those I will buy 12 more sets.
  
 You are using in the WA22 aren't you? No noise issues?


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> Nah! I couldn't do that.
> 
> Only one tube is noisy. I might order 3 and use the single to make two sets. Might be a plan.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I would agree with your impression of the mullard 6080's out of the 8 sets of 6080's there are RCA, GE, Sylvania and 1 set of mullards they sound better then all other 6080's I own, however I do have 4 sets of vintage all are 1950 RCA 6as7g's (bass is real nice) that are very close to the sound of my mullards.
  
 These are the mullards langrex sent me take a look, I only have one set of the mullards 6080's just the other day I went to the langrex ebay store and I can not find these same mullards they now have the CV2984 mullards I understand that the cv is just a common value number used by the military I'm not sure if the the same tube or not. I own a total of 78 tubes for my wa22 and have no noise from any of them. This is with out a doubt the best head amp i've ever owned I really love it..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I would agree with your impression of the mullard 6080's out of the 8 sets of 6080's there are RCA, GE, Sylvania and 1 set of mullards they sound better then all other 6080's I own, however I do have 4 sets of vintage all are 1950 RCA 6as7g's (bass is real nice) that are very close to the sound of my mullards.
> 
> These are the mullards langrex sent me take a look, I only have one set of the mullards 6080's just the other day I went to the langrex ebay store and I can not find these same mullards they now have the CV2984 mullards I understand that the cv is just a common value number used by the military I'm not sure if the the same tube or not. I own a total of 78 tubes for my wa22 and have no noise from any of them. This is with out a doubt the best head amp i've ever owned I really love it..


 

  

  
 Here is the pics of mine. They look the same internally. Slightly different logo. Looks like a Transformer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Bottom picture is with the RCA round plate 6F8G. Same plates as the NU 6F8G. Nice tubes. Not as good as the Tung-Sol or the NU. A little dryer. Might be nice with the RCA 6AS7G. I'm going to try that in the next few weeks.
  
 I have had no end of problems with noisy power tubes and my WA22. I've never had issues with rectifiers or drivers, always power. At times it has made me real mad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm starting to suspect that something is wrong with my amp. However when I get a noisy tube I switch sides and the noise follows which kinda points the fault at the tubes rather than amp. Maybe I'm just buying everyone's crappy noisy tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Currently I have seven sets of noisy tubes that I will never use.


----------



## gibosi

The tube on the left, below, is from the 1950s (Mullard/Philips tube code "AJ0 R7J", so 1957). Notice it has metal shields above the second mica, similar to the RCA. And the tube on the right is from the 1960s (Mullard/Philips tube code "AJ1 R6D1"), so 1966.
  
 As the tubes in the above pictures do not have the metal shields, they are most likely from the 1960s, or possibly, even the 1970s. If you can find the tube codes, they can reveal when they were manufactured.
  
 Also, the CV2984 is precisely identical to the 6080. Same tubes, same factory, just different paint.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Geez. That Mullard does look like a RCA. Very confusing. Thanks for the info.
  
 I saw a auction a few months ago for a set of that Mullard. I ignored thinking it was RCA. Sold at a cheap price as well.


----------



## abvolt

That's good to know thanks *gibosi *same tubes guess I'll order a second pair then. *Badas* you might be getting bad tubes wow 7 sets that would be very discouraging and expensive, do you or have you tried new power tubes how are they with noise issues, what a very strange problem, I've got like 28 different power tubes none have noise issues..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> That's good to know thanks *gibosi *same tubes guess I'll order a second pair then. *Badas* you might be getting bad tubes wow 7 sets that would be very discouraging and expensive, do you or have you tried new power tubes how are they with noise issues, what a very strange problem, I've got like 28 different power tubes none have noise issues..




Most of the noisy tubes are the RCA styled 6AS7G's. I have them rebranded as Tung-Sol, Sylvania, Raytheon and the RCA. They are all the same tube. They range from a small background hum that I could actually accept to full on crackling noise which annoy the crap out of me. The others are the crappy Russian Svetlana 6N13 and the one Mullard. 
The totally quiet ones I have are Sylvania 6080. Altho 2 sets started noisy then settled. GE 6080 (stock tube), Tung-Sol 7236, Bendix 6080, 2 sets of Chatham 6AS7g are quiet, one other set of Chatham's has one noisy tube. Then I have one set of the Svetlana that is quiet. 

I guess I have had a lot of bad luck. Or sellers selling me crap. I think the WA22 is a bit temperamental to 6080 and 6AS7g type tubes.

I'm infusiastic about the Mullard. I will do a re-listen even tho one is noisy. If I like the sound I will order 3 more to make 2 sets. If they are quiet then I will stock up. Maybe I just got one bad tube. The other is rock solid.

I think the Brimar 5Z4GY, Tung-Sol round plate 6F8g and Mullard 6080 could make a killer combo.


----------



## Badas

I'm listening to my Mullard 6080's now. Code AJ1. I can't read the bottom code it is just not readable.



The bloody noise is awful. One is hissing and spitting. The other is making a low level whirling sound (not as bad). So both are not running well in my WA22. I wonder if there has been a difference in designs of the WA22. Mine is August 2014 manufacture. I think I will contact Jack Woo and ask for help.

Anyhow. Nice sound. Reminds me a lot of the Sylvania 6080. Just as lush. A little bit bigger fuller mid-range (not much), minor improvement in bass. Treble sounds similar. So both lean a little to the bright side which gives them the lush sound.

I will not consider the Mullards as a useable tube in my case. Too close to the Sylvania's and too noisy. I know the Sylvania's work well in my amp and they are a lot cheaper. So unless the RCA 6080 knocks my socks off I will just stock up on the Sylvania.


----------



## adeadcrab

badas said:


> I'm listening to my Mullard 6080's now. Code AJ1. I can't read the bottom code it is just not readable.
> 
> The bloody noise is awful. One is hissing and spitting. The other is making a low level whirling sound (not as bad). So both are not running well in my WA22. I wonder if there has been a difference in designs of the WA22. Mine is August 2014 manufacture. I think I will contact Jack Woo and ask for help.
> 
> ...


 
 Didn't you have cables that were too close to the amp, making all your tubes noisy? Is there any other wireless interference in your house? Some types of tube may be more susceptible to noise than others.


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> Didn't you have cables that were too close to the amp, making all your tubes noisy? Is there any other wireless interference in your house? Some types of tube may be more susceptible to noise than others.




At one stage I thought that might be the case. However it proved to be not the case. Everyonce and a while when I suspect interference I picked up my amp and went into my workshop and pluged it in. I don't play music but just listen to the amp/tubes. The noise continues. 

Right now the Mullards have settled. After 1 hours use. But they come and go with the noise. My memory from last time is the Mullards are noisy for 30 minutes or so then they settle to be mostly quiet. That suggest tubes to me rather than interference. If it was interference wouldn't they be noisy continuously?


----------



## adeadcrab

I have an OTL amp that I would SWEAR was making noise with specific tubes; changing tubes would result in no noise, sometimes for days at a time.

 It was damaged in transit, the chassis was dinged up and not standing up properly, one of the cables was cut up and damaged from shipping, resistors were bent out of shape.
 Had it repaired and now it works great. NOS tubes sometimes crackle while burning in for a few days and then it's fine.
 Could be your amp internals.

 Send me a few spare pairs of your tubes and I will confirm if they make noise for me too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 just kidding


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> I have an OTL amp that I would SWEAR was making noise with specific tubes; changing tubes would result in no noise, sometimes for days at a time.
> 
> 
> It was damaged in transit, the chassis was dinged up and not standing up properly, one of the cables was cut up and damaged from shipping, resistors were bent out of shape.
> ...




I wish there was someone local I could lend the tubes to so I could confirm. 

If it was my amp or interference then wouldn't the fault stay on a particular channel. If I swap tubes the fault switches sides.

I think I might just roll my amp over. Take off the underneath plate and take a look at the internals. Something just doesn't feel right. The Mullards are virtually quiet now. They certainly have a lovely romantic balanced sound. I would really like to use these. I wonder if Woo has made a cap change to the WA22?


----------



## adeadcrab

Do you always have just of the pair of tubes not work properly? Still worth going over the amp internals IMO.


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> Do you always have just of the pair of tubes not work properly? Still worth going over the amp internals IMO.




Sorry. I'm not sure what you are saying here? If you don't mind can you re-phrase? 

I have a well respected audio shop near me that does a lot of tube amp repairs. I think I will take my amp in and pay them to inspect.


----------



## adeadcrab

Sorry,

 Do you always have just *one *of the pair of tubes not work properly? If you switch tubes then the issue goes to the other side. I had the same issue, although eventually the noise started switching sides, and both sides at the same time.


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> Sorry,
> 
> Do you always have just *one *of the pair of tubes not work properly? If you switch tubes then the issue goes to the other side. I had the same issue, although eventually the noise started switching sides, and both sides at the same time.


 

 The faults or noise always seems to follow the tubes.
  
 Let me explain. I have sets with just one noisy tubes and sets with both. The sets that are both noisy are not always noisy equally. One might be noisy and the other can be noisy and crackle.
  
 If I have one quiet and one noisy and switch them around the noisy tube switches.
  
 If I have a noisy tube and a noisy/crackle tube and switch then they switch also.
  
 If one is quiet and the other noisy the quiet one never gets noisy. It remains quiet no matter what socket it is in. The noisy never gets quiet. also.
  
 The faults follow the tubes. Not where they are plugged in. That is why I have not looked at my amp being at fault seriously. Everything points to the tubes being at fault themselves.
  
 What could be at fault in the amp is the circuits not being as tolerable as others. Maybe Woo has made some sort of change and it reveals noise easier?????
  
 Advolt. When was yours manufactured? Mine was purchased Sept 2014 and it would have been manufactured in August as it takes a while to ship here (New Zealand).
  
 Another interesting point is that I have the Tung-Sol 7236. Which I purchased the set from Woo themselves. The 7236 is a lot more powerful tube. It has a lot more gain than the 6080. The 7236's are dead quiet. Not a tiny bit of noise. I would have thought if there was a fault with the circuit this tube would reveal it as it is adding more load. Yet they are quiet.


----------



## mikoss

I've cured tube noise by giving the pins a thorough cleaning. I use baking soda and water in a small dish, mixed to a paste, then carefully scrub each pin with a q-tip and the paste. Rinse and then also use rubbing alcohol on each pin with a q-tip if you like. Avoid getting the alcohol anywhere else. Rinse the pins thoroughly with water after. 

If you see a dark residue on the pins, this method may help to clean them and resolve some noise issues.


----------



## DavidA

mikoss said:


> I've cured tube noise by giving the pins a thorough cleaning. I use baking soda and water in a small dish, mixed to a paste, then carefully scrub each pin with a q-tip and the paste. Rinse and then also use rubbing alcohol on each pin with a q-tip if you like. Avoid getting the alcohol anywhere else. Rinse the pins thoroughly with water after.
> 
> If you see a dark residue on the pins, this method may help to clean them and resolve some noise issues.


 
 +1
 I've also had good results with Deoxit, red color one for most metals and yellow one for gold pins.


----------



## Badas

mikoss said:


> I've cured tube noise by giving the pins a thorough cleaning. I use baking soda and water in a small dish, mixed to a paste, then carefully scrub each pin with a q-tip and the paste. Rinse and then also use rubbing alcohol on each pin with a q-tip if you like. Avoid getting the alcohol anywhere else. Rinse the pins thoroughly with water after.
> 
> If you see a dark residue on the pins, this method may help to clean them and resolve some noise issues.


 
  
  


davida said:


> +1
> I've also had good results with Deoxit, red color one for most metals and yellow one for gold pins.


 
  
 I will give the baking soda a go. Thanks.
  
 Pins are very clean looking. No harm in trying tho. I will give them a go on the Mullards. As really they are the only noisy tubes I care about. Most of the others I'm not excited about.
  
 I don't have alcohol but I do have a can of contact cleaner. Can I use that? and do I rinse again after applying the alcohol / contact cleaner?


----------



## DavidA

The contact cleaner will work but the Deoxit is a thick liquid that really helps with bad electrical contacts.
 When I have problems with batteries in flash light not getting end to end contact and the light is flickering using the Deoxit makes the problem go away completely, every time.
 There is also a cleaner that Deoxit makes and it will make the pins look almost brand new but needs to sit for a while for it to work.
 Good luck, hope that it clears up your noisy tube problem.


----------



## Badas

davida said:


> The contact cleaner will work but the Deoxit is a thick liquid that really helps with bad electrical contacts.
> When I have problems with batteries in flash light not getting end to end contact and the light is flickering using the Deoxit makes the problem go away completely, every time.
> There is also a cleaner that Deoxit makes and it will make the pins look almost brand new but needs to sit for a while for it to work.
> Good luck, hope that it clears up your noisy tube problem.


 

 Is this the stuff?
  
 http://www.listeningpost.co.nz/Products/Audio-Accessories-Adaptor-stereo-home-theater/Cleaning-Supplies/Caig-Laboratories-deoxit-contact-cleaner-rejuvenator-__I.82983__N.27756__C.55048
  
 I'm very limited to what I can get here.
  
 Some other stuff I can get locally:
  
 http://www.fishpond.co.nz/c/Electronics/q/Deoxit


----------



## Dogmatrix

badas said:


> Is this the stuff?
> 
> http://www.listeningpost.co.nz/Products/Audio-Accessories-Adaptor-stereo-home-theater/Cleaning-Supplies/Caig-Laboratories-deoxit-contact-cleaner-rejuvenator-__I.82983__N.27756__C.55048
> 
> ...


 

 I use the wipes every time I swap tubes , even though they look clean there is always a little dark oxide on the cloth after
  
 Also , might pay to check your voltage over or under can cause problems with tubes
 I checked mine and found it was over 250v so I bought a small step down transformer which dropped it to around 230v
 One of my 5998 tubes had a slight hum at 250 gone at 230


----------



## DavidA

badas said:


> Is this the stuff?
> 
> http://www.listeningpost.co.nz/Products/Audio-Accessories-Adaptor-stereo-home-theater/Cleaning-Supplies/Caig-Laboratories-deoxit-contact-cleaner-rejuvenator-__I.82983__N.27756__C.55048
> 
> ...


 

 Yup, that's it, the second site has package deal for the two different ones (red and gold).  I don't care for the aerosol, gets all over the place and can stain stuff.
 I've also tried using the gold one on gold plated RCA connectors and sometimes there is a difference if the connectors haven't been touch for a while (2 or yrs).


----------



## Badas

dogmatrix said:


> I use the wipes every time I swap tubes , even though they look clean there is always a little dark oxide on the cloth after
> 
> Also , might pay to check your voltage over or under can cause problems with tubes
> I checked mine and found it was over 250v so I bought a small step down transformer which dropped it to around 230v
> One of my 5998 tubes had a slight hum at 250 gone at 230


 

 My system is on a Belkin Pure AV power conditioner (pic of it on the bottom of the rack) and is set on 230v. So it should be good.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> davida said:
> 
> 
> > The contact cleaner will work but the Deoxit is a thick liquid that really helps with bad electrical contacts.
> ...


 
 I use sandpaper it really cleans the pins and its cheap.


----------



## abvolt

I use the same *MIKELAP* then use a small amount of deoxit I don't have a large collection of tubes but I also have no weird sound issues with any of them. Let us know *Badas* what your local shop says..


----------



## DavidA

mikelap said:


> I use sandpaper it really cleans the pins and its cheap.


 

 For really bad condition pins I will also use a very fine (1000 grit) wet/dry sandpaper but always coat the pins with deoxit after to keep the corrosion from returning quickly.


----------



## Badas

Well don't I feel like a tit standing on top of a hill with his pants down and everyone looking up. 

I ordered that cleaner stuff today. A few tubes. However I ran home after work and removed the two Mullaed power tubes and used my contact cleaner and some Q Tips and scrubbed the pins. The pins were dull when removed after cleaning they were very shiny.

After reinstalling I turned on the amp and listened. They are not totally quiet but a lot, lot better. Totally useable and acceptable. 

Thanks everyone for your advise. You guys have put a big smile on my face. Bugger me I feel like a prize dork and I must apologise to anyone that was put off the Mullard by my silly noise comments.

FYI. The Mullard is all that. It is so nicely balanced. Certainly the nicest power tube I have in my collection. Time to buy 2 more sets from Langrex as another test. If they pan out I will hold 14 sets.


----------



## adeadcrab

Even NOS tubes get oxidised pins, just from not being used. Sometimes tubes will get noisy and what I have done is reinstall a few times to clean the pins.

 Would dirty pins make tubes non-working and produce no sound at all? Some 6SJ7 NOS driver tubes from different brands have died on me the second time I turn on the amp. Thinking they were done for, I threw them out. Would deoxit have fixed this?


----------



## DavidA

badas said:


> Well don't I feel like a tit standing on top of a hill with his pants down and everyone looking up.
> 
> I ordered that cleaner stuff today. A few tubes. However I ran home after work and removed the two Mullaed power tubes and used my contact cleaner and some Q Tips and scrubbed the pins. The pins were dull when removed after cleaning they were very shiny.
> 
> ...


 

 Glad that worked for you, when you get the Deoxit, every time you change tubes, brush the pins with the red Deoxit, it will help clean the sockets in your amp.


----------



## Badas

davida said:


> Glad that worked for you, when you get the Deoxit, every time you change tubes, brush the pins with the red Deoxit, it will help clean the sockets in your amp.




Once I clean the pins and insert them in the sockets do I need to remove and clean every once and a while or are they good to go and can stay inserted until they die? 

I think cleaning the pins slightly improved the sound as well or am I imagining that?


----------



## DavidA

badas said:


> Once I clean the pins and insert them in the sockets do I need to remove and clean every once and a while or are they good to go and can stay inserted until they die?
> 
> I think cleaning the pins slightly improved the sound as well or am I imagining that?


 

 They should be good to go and can stay inserted until you change them, just coat the new tubes that you are installing.


----------



## Shaffer

I read earlier in the thread that Sylvania 6AS7G are the same as RCA 6AS7G. If this true?

Another question, are NOS Russian 6N13S ('70s-'80 production) better sounding than the current crop of Russian 6N13s'? Incidentally, I like the new Russian tubes quite a bit in the Feliks Elise.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I read earlier in the thread that Sylvania 6AS7G are the same as RCA 6AS7G. If this true?


 
  
 No one knows for sure...  We do know that Chatham (Tung-Sol after acquiring Chatham) and RCA manufactured these tubes. I personally doubt there were any other American manufacturers. Most of the Sylvanias, Raytheons and others look identical to the RCA. So my position, until proven false, is that if it looks like an RCA, then it is an RCA.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> I read earlier in the thread that Sylvania 6AS7G are the same as RCA 6AS7G. If this true?


 
  
  


gibosi said:


> No one knows for sure...  We do know that Chatham (Tung-Sol after acquiring Chatham) and RCA manufactured these tubes. I personally doubt there were any other American manufacturers. Most of the Sylvanias, Raytheons and others look identical to the RCA. So my position, until proven false, is that if it looks like an RCA, then it is an RCA.


 
  
 I agree. I have a set of RCA, Tung-Sol, 2 x Raytheon and Sylvania. I have had them side by side and internally I couldn't see a difference in design. They all sound the same as well.
  
 There is a version of Tung-Sol and Chatham that is different internally. I have 3 sets of those. Two labeled Tung-Sol and the other Chatham. They are different internally and sound very different. They are the nicest 6AS7G I have heard.
  

  
 An old photo I took of the 6AS7G's. First is the Chatham. Note no flaps on the bottom of the plates. Next 3 are RCA rebadged as other brands. Last is stock standard RCA.
  
 The Russians are nice sounding and I like them better than the RCA type (not better than the Chatham type). Problem is they are a mixed bag (some good, some bad). A lot have vacuum problems.


----------



## abvolt

That's cool glad to hear cleaning helped enjoy..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> That's cool glad to hear cleaning helped enjoy..


 

 Just purchased that DeoxIT stuff. 2 tubes of cleaner and one of enhancer gold.
  
 I will clean all pins of tubes installed in my amp when it arrives. I swear cleaning the pins changed the sound on the Mullard power tubes as well.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> Just purchased that DeoxIT stuff. 2 tubes of cleaner and one of enhancer gold.
> 
> I will clean all pins of tubes installed in my amp when it arrives. I swear cleaning the pins changed the sound on the Mullard power tubes as well.


 
  
 I started using deoxit gold recently myself a member here recommended using it every time I change tubes works great and makes good sense, some of us like you *Badas* have a big investment in there tube collections..


----------



## Oskari

shaffer said:


> Another question, are NOS Russian 6N13S ('70s-'80 production) better sounding than the current crop of Russian 6N13s'? Incidentally, I like the new Russian tubes quite a bit in the Feliks Elise.




I don't think they are in current production.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Just purchased that DeoxIT stuff. 2 tubes of cleaner and one of enhancer gold.
> 
> I will clean all pins of tubes installed in my amp when it arrives. I swear cleaning the pins changed the sound on the Mullard power tubes as well.



Interesting. Need some of that


----------



## Badas

oskari said:


> I don't think they are in current production.


 

 I think they are. There is a Chinese manufactured version that is often sold on eSlay. They say it is direct from their factory. Could be BS tho and they are just repackaging the Russian version.


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> I think they are. There is a Chinese manufactured version that is often sold on eSlay. They say it is direct from their factory. Could be BS tho and they are just repackaging the Russian version.


 
  
 Let me rephrase that. I don't think the Russian tube is in current production. (The Chinese could be old stock as well.)


----------



## Badas

oskari said:


> Let me rephrase that. I don't think the Russian tube is in current production. (The Chinese could be old stock as well.)




There is a Chinese tube being sold as a newly manufactured 6N13. It looks exactly the same as the Russian except a slight indent in the top plate cover. To me there could be two possibilities. The first is that these are being manufactured maybe with the old tooling from a Russian tube plant. Second is it is marketing BS and just old stock.


----------



## SonicTrance

badas said:


> There is a Chinese tube being sold as a newly manufactured 6N13. It looks exactly the same as the Russian except a slight indent in the top plate cover. To me there could be two possibilities. The first is that these are being manufactured maybe with the old tooling from a Russian tube plant. Second is it is marketing BS and just old stock.


 
 Do you mean the Shuguang 6N13PT? If so they're totally different from the Russians. I have a pair and they sound awful to my ears. I quite like the russians though.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Shuguang-Chinese-6N13P-T-6N13P-6H13C-6AS7G-Vacuum-Tube-2PCS-/171504380343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ee7529b7


----------



## Shaffer

sonictrance said:


> Do you mean the Shuguang 6N13PT? If so they're totally different from the Russians. I have a pair and they sound awful to my ears. I quite like the russians though.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Shuguang-Chinese-6N13P-T-6N13P-6H13C-6AS7G-Vacuum-Tube-2PCS-/171504380343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ee7529b7




Agreed on every point. I tried the Shuguang tubes, as well. Tepid sound quality.


----------



## Mechans1

Is there any issue sourcing 6AS7Gs, new or current production? I thought they were readily available.  Fortunately  for me I need only two  power tubes and am liking my Mullard 6080s at the moment.  I do have to find some of the other gems favored around here.  One is relatively abundant the Sylvania 6080, finding GEC or  MOV anything is hard, but I will keep an eye open for them.
  
 Where are the commerce areas in this forum I would like to ask for some tubes and offer others of mine as trade/sale etc.  I am new around here.


----------



## Badas

sonictrance said:


> Do you mean the Shuguang 6N13PT? If so they're totally different from the Russians. I have a pair and they sound awful to my ears. I quite like the russians though.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Shuguang-Chinese-6N13P-T-6N13P-6H13C-6AS7G-Vacuum-Tube-2PCS-/171504380343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ee7529b7




Yes. I did mean those. Good to know they don't sound good. I wasn't considering them but I will avoid.


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> Is there any issue sourcing 6AS7Gs, new or current production? I thought they were readily available.  Fortunately  for me I need only two  power tubes and am liking my Mullard 6080s at the moment.  I do have to find some of the other gems favored around here.  One is relatively abundant the Sylvania 6080, finding GEC or  MOV anything is hard, but I will keep an eye open for them.
> 
> Where are the commerce areas in this forum I would like to ask for some tubes and offer others of mine as trade/sale etc.  I am new around here.




The Mullards are sounding good. I think they are staying in my WA22. Noise is almost gone. Just a very slight bit on one for the first hour. After that it is vertically gone.

I can't help on the commerce. Where I am located makes it too hard.


----------



## abvolt

I picked these up the other day and was pleasantly surprised on how nice they sound, a pair of Sylvania 6AS7G made in the USSR and at only 12. each not to bad of a deal either. There not as warm  as the mullard 6080's I'm currently listening to but still very nice sounding and well worth the price. With headphones I can tell a difference between the two sets but on speakers seems like a toss-up hard to tell any differences, I use my wa22 to power my krk 10 3's & s10 works really well & sounds just great..


----------



## fccn75

abvolt said:


> I picked these up the other day and was pleasantly surprised on how nice they sound, a pair of Sylvania 6AS7G made in the USSR and at only 12. each not to bad of a deal either. There not as warm  as the mullard 6080's I'm currently listening to but still very nice sounding and well worth the price. With headphones I can tell a difference between the two sets but on speakers seems like a toss-up hard to tell any differences, I use my wa22 to power my krk 10 3's & s10 works really well & sounds just great..


 
 Do you have a link of where you got these, thanks.


----------



## abvolt

fccn75 said:


> Do you have a link of where you got these, thanks.


 
  
  
 It was a bid I won off ebay, still listening to them they really sound nice..


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I don't think if those are SYLVANIA looks to me just STAMPED with sylvania.


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I don't think if those are SYLVANIA looks to me just STAMPED with sylvania(regular 6N13 see the bottom saucer).


 

 Yeah. I looked at those on eSlay. They are Russian. Not a bad sounding tube. Everything is polite.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Yeah i have those they are nice.


----------



## MIKELAP




----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


>


 

 That's unusual. Mine are like a flying saucer shape. They don't have the square bit.


----------



## abvolt

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I don't think if those are SYLVANIA looks to me just STAMPED with sylvania.


 
  
  
 So you all think these are fake sylvania's maybe so at least they were cheap and sound good Lol..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> So you all think these are fake sylvania's maybe so at least they were cheap and sound good Lol..


 

 I wouldn't worry about it. They are either fake or Sylvania asked them to do a contract for them at one time. They are Russian tubes. However who cares the Russian is a nice sounding tube. A lot nicer than the version RCA made for Sylvania.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. They are either fake or Sylvania asked them to do a contract for them at one time. They are Russian tubes. However who cares the Russian is a nice sounding tube. A lot nicer than the version RCA made for Sylvania.


 
  
 Thanks dude I think it's funny hope there my only fakes, Well I do have a nice pair of sylvania tube boxes but their marked as made in the USSR also Lol..


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


 

 This one is a 1959 Svetlana made 6h5c unfortunately there noisy in the WA22 but are not in the WA2 funny, maybe the ones you have would not be noisy in another amp .


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> This one is a 1959 Svetlana made 6h5c unfortunately there noisy in the WA22 but are not in the WA2 funny, maybe the ones you have would not be noisy in another amp .


 

 Yes. I have always thought there has been something going on in the WA22 6080 circuit. Too much of a  coincidence for so many faulty power tubes.
  
 My Mullards which use to be noisy are 100% quiet now. I did two 6 hour burns on them over the weekend. They now start up quiet and stay that way. So cleaning the pins really helped those tubes. I should try some other known noisy tubes. Clean them up and try. However I'm just enjoying the Mullards too much to remove them for something else right now. They are a damn nice tube.


----------



## abvolt

I would also say the mullards are for me the best sounding power tube, as for the sylvania's I just got the are very nice not noisy at all in fact better then the quad set of rca's  I have..


----------



## gibosi

abvolt said:


> Thanks dude I think it's funny hope there my only fakes, Well I do have a nice pair of sylvania tube boxes but their marked as made in the USSR also Lol..


 
  
 Rebranding was very common back in the day. For example, if Sylvania received an order for a tube that was out of stock, or even one they didn't make, they would simply purchase it from another manufacturer, put their name on it, and out the door it went. Again, this was common among all the manufacturers. The text and graphics printed on the tube was primarily for marketing purposes, and therefore, it is never safe to assume that the tube was manufactured by the company whose name is printed on the tube.


----------



## abvolt

Good info I did not know this thanks..


----------



## Badas

davida said:


> The contact cleaner will work but the Deoxit is a thick liquid that really helps with bad electrical contacts.
> When I have problems with batteries in flash light not getting end to end contact and the light is flickering using the Deoxit makes the problem go away completely, every time.
> There is also a cleaner that Deoxit makes and it will make the pins look almost brand new but needs to sit for a while for it to work.
> Good luck, hope that it clears up your noisy tube problem.




I received the cleaner and the conditioner today. I removed all tubes and used applying via a Q Tip. Tube pins sparkled they looked so good. Re installed and tested. 

Zero noise. Noise floor level has lowered as well. Overall sound has improved. A lot smoother.

Thanks so much. I really owe ya.

Listening to this. Amazing.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> davida said:
> 
> 
> > The contact cleaner will work but the Deoxit is a thick liquid that really helps with bad electrical contacts.
> ...


 
 Did you use the red or gold detoxit ?
  
 I think I am going to order both


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Did you use the red or gold detoxit ?
> 
> I think I am going to order both




Yeah. I ordered and used both. They are very small tubes. So ordered 3 red and two gold.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Did you use the red or gold detoxit ?
> ...


 
 Thanks


----------



## SonicTrance

whirlwind said:


> Did you use the red or gold detoxit ?
> 
> I think I am going to order both


 
 I think the gold deoxit is for plated surfaces only. So if you don't have tubes with plated pins go for the red one.


----------



## Oskari

abvolt said:


> Thanks dude I think it's funny hope there my only fakes, Well I do have a nice pair of sylvania tube boxes but their marked as made in the USSR also Lol..


 
  
 Those are clearly not fakes. Fakes wouldn't have made in USSR on them.


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> There is a Chinese tube being sold as a newly manufactured 6N13.


 
  


mechans1 said:


> Is there any issue sourcing 6AS7Gs, new or current production? I thought they were readily available.


 
  
 There is no real shortage but it just might be the case that there is no current production of either 6AS7Gs or 6080s. The "new" Chinese tubes aren't necessarily newly manufactured.
  


mechans1 said:


> Where are the commerce areas in this forum I would like to ask for some tubes and offer others of mine as trade/sale etc.  I am new around here.


 
  

http://www.head-fi.org/f/41/for-sale-trade-forums


----------



## DavidA

badas said:


> I received the cleaner and the conditioner today. I removed all tubes and used applying via a Q Tip. Tube pins sparkled they looked so good. Re installed and tested.
> 
> Zero noise. Noise floor level has lowered as well. Overall sound has improved. A lot smoother.
> 
> ...


 

 Glad the deoxit worked for you.  Looks like your lot of "good" tubes just got larger


----------



## Ultrainferno

badas said:


> I received the cleaner and the conditioner today. I removed all tubes and used applying via a Q Tip. Tube pins sparkled they looked so good. Re installed and tested.
> 
> Zero noise. Noise floor level has lowered as well. Overall sound has improved. A lot smoother.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Got it today as well, lovely album. Will go see her in 3 weeks!


----------



## Badas

sonictrance said:


> I think the gold deoxit is for plated surfaces only. So if you don't have tubes with plated pins go for the red one.


 
  
 Ha. I thought the gold was like a coating. So I used the red stuff. Then wiped and the applied a coating of the gold.
 Will it be harmful having the gold stuff coating?
  


davida said:


> Glad the deoxit worked for you.  Looks like your lot of "good" tubes just got larger


 
  
 Sure did bud.


ultrainferno said:


> Got it today as well, lovely album. Will go see her in 3 weeks!


 
 Lucky bugger. Enjoy the concert.
  
 I was luke warm with her past work. The tempo was just a little slow for me. This one has it's slow songs but just fast enough to keep me interested. Great album.


----------



## DavidA

badas said:


> Ha. I thought the gold was like a coating. So I used the red stuff. Then wiped and the applied a coating of the gold.
> Will it be harmful having the gold stuff coating?
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Here is a guide to using Deoxit:

 The red is the D series, the yellow is the gold series


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Thank you. So basically:
  
 Normal silver pins use the red and it does the coating.
  
 Gold pins use the gold.
  
 Excellent. I was amazed at the improvement. My WA22 was smooth before however now it has gone up a level.


----------



## DavidA

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Thank you. So basically:
> 
> ...


 
 I use the red for cleaning and coating the silver pins and also for cleaning gold pins/jacks/plugs that have some oxidation on them.
  
 I use the yellow for coating the gold pins after cleaning with the red.
  
 Also use the yellow on any gold platted RCA jacks and even TRS/XLR plugs or jacks, anywhere there is metal to metal contact that is transferring a signal or power.  Since it is also a lubricant it makes changing tubes a little easier from my experience changing tubes in my Lyr2, Ember and BH Crack.
  
 If you change tubes often (1-2 times a month) don't apply the deoxit every time you swap tubes, it doesn't need it.


----------



## Badas

davida said:


> I use the red for cleaning and coating the silver pins and also for cleaning gold pins/jacks/plugs that have some oxidation on them.
> 
> I use the yellow for coating the gold pins after cleaning with the red.
> 
> ...


 

  
 Soooooo. The one area I didn't do was remove the Glenn adapters on the drive tubes and clean those pins as they are brand new.
 They are gold pins. So therefore I should remove and coat with the gold right?
  
 Sorry about hijacking the thread for a bit. Very educational for any newbies tho.


----------



## DavidA

Yes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 By the way, that amp is gorgeous looking.


----------



## Badas

davida said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Okay. Thanks. I will get onto that.
  
 Thanks for the nice comment. It is something I plan to treasure for a long time.
  
 Getting back to 6080/6AS7G. I just secured a deal to take 26 Mullard 6080 tubes from Langrex (13 more sets). That will be my lifetime supply and go to tube for the amp.


----------



## abvolt

The mullards are nice no doubts guess I'd better order a extra set if any are left good for you dude Lol..


----------



## DavidA

badas said:


> Okay. Thanks. I will get onto that.
> 
> Thanks for the nice comment. It is something I plan to treasure for a long time.
> 
> Getting back to 6080/6AS7G. I just secured a deal to take 26 Mullard 6080 tubes from Langrex (13 more sets). That will be my lifetime supply and go to tube for the amp.


 
 Quick beginner question, between the 6080, 6AS7G and 5998 are there noticeable sonic differences?  My Crack came with a 6080 but I changed it to a TS-5998 since it gave a better low end and the sound stage is wider, is there differences among 6080 like the Mullard and Sylvania?


----------



## gibosi

davida said:


> Quick beginner question, between the 6080, 6AS7G and 5998 are there noticeable sonic differences?  My Crack came with a 6080 but I changed it to a TS-5998 since it gave a better low end and the sound stage is wider, is there differences among 6080 like the Mullard and Sylvania?


 
  
 Yes, there are noticeable sonic differences between 6080, 6AS7G and 5998. And further, there are sonic differences between different manufacturers. Unfortunately, the pictures have been deleted, but the following post nicely summarizes one person's take on many of these tubes.
  
 http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


----------



## DavidA

gibosi said:


> Yes, there are noticeable sonic differences between 6080, 6AS7G and 5998. And further, there are sonic differences between different manufacturers. Unfortunately, the pictures have been deleted, but the following post nicely summarizes one person's take on many of these tubes.
> 
> http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


 

 Thanks for the link


----------



## Mechans1

I have a pair of the Mullard 6080 and am using them now.  I swapped in my Tung Sol 5998s and was surprised to find I liked the Mullard better. I  will  have to try that again soon to check my sanity.


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> I have a pair of the Mullard 6080 and am using them now.  I swapped in my Tung Sol 5998s and was surprised to find I liked the Mullard better. I  will  have to try that again soon to check my sanity.


 

 I find that the Mullard does nothing extraordinary. It does everything really well. With no weak areas. So it makes for an extraordinary tube.


----------



## Shaffer

Another newb question: Were US-made Tung-Sol 6080 manufactured by Tung-Sol?


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> Another newb question: Were US-made Tung-Sol 6080 manufactured by Tung-Sol?


 

 No by Bendix I think. They share a lot of Bendix parts.
  

  
 Similar holders for micras touching the glass. Similar plates and the same micras.
  
 Then there is the Bendix re-badged as a Tung-Sol. Pictured in my amp below.
  

  

  
 I also suspect that my pair of Tung-Sol 7236's were made by Bendix also.
  
 All fantastic tubes by the way.


----------



## abvolt

I have a nice variety of 6as7g's and also 6080's to me the mullard 6080 beats them all, They seem to have a lot more body in there sound, so far they are my favorites. Although I'd sure like to try a pair of the tung sol 7236's sometime..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I have a nice variety of 6as7g's and also 6080's to me the mullard 6080 beats them all, They seem to have a lot more body in there sound, so far they are my favorites. Although I'd sure like to try a pair of the *tung sol 7236's sometime..*


 

 Tung-Sol 7236 is not all that. I don't mind them but I wouldn't rate them. They are fast and dynamic but nothing else. A close SS sounding tube. I just like tubes to sound like tubes not SS.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> Tung-Sol 7236 is not all that. I don't mind them but I wouldn't rate them. They are fast and dynamic but nothing else. A close SS sounding tube. I just like tubes to sound like tubes not SS.


 
  
 Thanks that'll save me some $


----------



## 3083joe

Yes! Enjoying.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Another newb question: Were US-made Tung-Sol 6080 manufactured by Tung-Sol?


 
  
 If it has ceramic spacers, Bendix. If regular mica spacers, Tung-Sol/Chatham.


----------



## 3083joe

davida said:


> Glad the deoxit worked for you.  Looks like your lot of "good" tubes just got larger



Can you tell me what exactly you bought. Need the same. Tia


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Can you tell me what exactly you bought. Need the same. Tia


 

 This stuff:
  
 http://www.listeningpost.co.nz/Products/Audio-Accessories-Adaptor-stereo-home-theater/Cleaning-Supplies/Caig-Laboratories-deoxit-contact-cleaner-rejuvenator-__I.82983__N.27756__C.55048
  
 There will be a local supplier. This is just my local shop.
  
 It took a noisy Mullard power tube and reduced the noise level 95% (I can still just hear it if no music is playing and I listen for it. But that is stupid). Making it a viable tube. After using it on all tube pins in my amp it lowered the noise floor level and made sound a little smoother.


----------



## SonicTrance

abvolt said:


> I have a nice variety of 6as7g's and also 6080's to me the mullard 6080 beats them all, They seem to have a lot more body in there sound, so far they are my favorites. Although I'd sure like to try a pair of the tung sol 7236's sometime..


 
 Man, all this talk about the Mullard 6080 makes me wanna give mine another shot. I bought a quad set from Langrex a while ago to use in my LD MK6 and they were very noisy. I think I'll just have to treat them with a little Deoxit and see what happens. I absolutely love the 5998's I use at the moment but you never know...
  
 These are the ones I got: http://www.ebay.com/itm/311154206725?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 I'm currently trying out a bunch of driver tubes also, but that's for another thread


----------



## whirlwind

I have bought all of these in anticipation of my new amp and some help from gibosi.
  

 Pay no mention to the tube on the right.....it is a rectifier.


----------



## Badas

Some very nice glass. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I've got a couple of those Rectifiers. They are suppose to be great. I should re try. For memory 5AW4 or something like that.


----------



## whirlwind

yes you are correct....good memory  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It is a 5AW4


----------



## 3083joe

Nu 6f8g and 596 came today. Now if the adapters will get here.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> yes you are correct....good memory
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You got to look for those angled plates. You got the right version. Very dynamic if I remember correctly. Dynamic is what you want in a rectifier.


----------



## whirlwind

Yes, you are correct again..


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > yes you are correct....good memory
> ...


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


>


 
 I have stacks of tubes with me at work. I keep a big supply with me here so that if my house burnt down I would have a back up supply. Sad aye! Well I have 6 x CBS 5AW4 with me. This one is labeled GE. Look at the upside down V. You can thank Glenn for this tube. It is a gem he found.


----------



## abvolt

I've got one of those the only difference is the lettering is red it's GE..


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


 
 Yes, Glenn told me about this tube, also.
 We have made changes in my amp, it will no longer use 5 volt rectifiers....but Glenn told me what he is going to do to it will be better than any 5 volt rectifier...so of course...I am all in


----------



## adeadcrab

skylab said:


> I think I have posted this before, but for those of you bargain hunting, these are actually nice sounding tubes, quiet, and true NOS/NIB...
> 
> http://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612


 
 arrived the other day, not too bad..

 How do these compare to RCA 6AS7G?


----------



## SonicTrance

sonictrance said:


> Man, all this talk about the Mullard 6080 makes me wanna give mine another shot. I bought a quad set from Langrex a while ago to use in my LD MK6 and they were very noisy. I think I'll just have to treat them with a little Deoxit and see what happens. I absolutely love the 5998's I use at the moment but you never know...
> 
> These are the ones I got: http://www.ebay.com/itm/311154206725?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> I'm currently trying out a bunch of driver tubes also, but that's for another thread


 
 I cleaned the Mullards and the noise level is nowhere near what it was before. The pins looked fine before cleaning but it made a huge difference! Soundwise they're not even competing with the 5998's as far as I'm concerned though. Soundstage is *much *smaller and they lack the clarity and *slam* of the 5998's. Back in the box they went.


----------



## 3083joe

sonictrance said:


> I cleaned the Mullards and the noise level is nowhere near what it was before. The pins looked fine before cleaning but it made a huge difference! Soundwise they're not even competing with the 5998's as far as I'm concerned though. Soundstage is *much *smaller and they lack the clarity and *slam* of the 5998's. Back in the box they went.



Might look into those 5998s.


----------



## DavidA

3083joe said:


> Might look into those 5998s.


 
 Interested in your impression of the 5998.  I have the stock 6080 that came with my BH Crack and used it for about a week before I got a pair of TS-5998 and a pair of Chathem 5998.  The TS-5998 have the best overall sound IMO but the Chathem 5998 are not to far behind and for about 1/4 the price a pretty good deal IMO.  The 6080 was ok but the sound seem to lack bass kick and the highs were somewhat bright with some songs.


----------



## gibosi

davida said:


> Interested in your impression of the 5998.  I have the stock 6080 that came with my BH Crack and used it for about a week before I got a pair of TS-5998 and a pair of Chathem 5998.  The TS-5998 have the best overall sound IMO but the Chathem 5998 are not to far behind and for about 1/4 the price a pretty good deal IMO.  The 6080 was ok but the sound seem to lack bass kick and the highs were somewhat bright with some songs.


 
  
 I am quite sure that all 5998s were manufactured by Chatham. No other company manufactured this tube. Of course, after Tung-Sol acquired Chatham in the late 1950's, the TS name began to appear on this tube. Therefore, I would guess that any apparent sonic differences between your TS and Chatham pairs is most likely due to their having been manufactured at different times.


----------



## SonicTrance

davida said:


> Interested in your impression of the 5998.  I have the stock 6080 that came with my BH Crack and used it for about a week before I got a pair of TS-5998 and a pair of Chathem 5998.  The TS-5998 have the best overall sound IMO but the Chathem 5998 are not to far behind and for about 1/4 the price a pretty good deal IMO.  The 6080 was ok but the sound seem to lack bass kick and the highs were somewhat bright with some songs.


 
 1/4 the price for Chatham vs Tung-Sol 5998's? Strange, they usually cost the same on ebay. I can't hear a difference between the two either. Internally they look the same, one thing I've noticed though is some of my Chathams have copper rods and some don't. None of my Tung-Sols have copper rods. Oh, and some have black, kind of shiny, plates and some have matte grey plates. 
 I'd like to try the bottom getter version of the 5998 but they're very hard to find. There are some 421A's on ebay, which i guess are the same tube as bottom getter 5998, but they cost two legs and one arm, lol.


----------



## Mechans1

sonictrance said:


> I cleaned the Mullards and the noise level is nowhere near what it was before. The pins looked fine before cleaning but it made a huge difference! Soundwise they're not even competing with the 5998's as far as I'm concerned though. Soundstage is *much *smaller and they lack the clarity and *slam* of the 5998's. Back in the box they went.


 

 These are not the same labeling or box that my Mullards came with.  I can't make out any plate structural differences but I think despite the nominal 6080 designation that those tubes are CV 2984s.  Why this matters I am not sure, but the blue box Mullard 6080 is a very good tube with a full rich and clean sound.  I might add that they don't demonstrate the tendency towards warmth that Mullard is known  for.  I find I like them  more than my Chatham/Tung Sol 5998s.  I was surprised myself having really liked the 5998s.


----------



## SonicTrance

mechans1 said:


> These are not the same labeling or box that my Mullards came with.  I can't make out any plate structural differences but I think despite the nominal 6080 designation that those tubes are CV 2984s.  Why this matters I am not sure, but the blue box Mullard 6080 is a very good tube with a full rich and clean sound.  I might add that they don't demonstrate the tendency towards warmth that Mullard is known  for.  I find I like them  more than my Chatham/Tung Sol 5998s.  I was surprised myself having really liked the 5998s.




Mine are rather late production, 1975, maybe that's why they're different.


----------



## Badas

I would really like to try the 5998 however the price just keeps going up and some of the auctions on eSlay look to be other peoples crap tubes. A tube seller told me a number of 5998's can be noisy. More than average. So I wonder that some of those auctions are noisy tubes that owners no longer wants. To risky at the prices being asked.
  
 I would rather pay a bit more and get the GEC 6AS7g. It looks to be more suited to my taste.
  
 The Mullard 6080 is serving me well. I am enjoying. Only weakness I have picked up on is instrument separation. I have others that do it better. However it makes up for that weakness by being great at everything else. I received my RCA6080's. Damn excellent looking examples but I can't bring myself to pull the Mullards to test them.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> I would really like to try the 5998 however the price just keeps going up and some of the auctions on eSlay look to be other peoples crap tubes. A tube seller told me a number of 5998's can be noisy. More than average. So I wonder that some of those auctions are noisy tubes that owners no longer wants. To risky at the prices being asked.
> 
> I would rather pay a bit more and get the GEC 6AS7g. It looks to be more suited to my taste.
> 
> The Mullard 6080 is serving me well. I am enjoying. Only weakness I have picked up on is instrument separation. I have others that do it better. However it makes up for that weakness by being great at everything else. I received my RCA6080's. Damn excellent looking examples but I can't bring myself to pull the Mullards to test them.



Can I fit 6080s into the wa6?


----------



## DavidA

gibosi said:


> I am quite sure that all 5998s were manufactured by Chatham. No other company manufactured this tube. Of course, after Tung-Sol acquired Chatham in the late 1950's, the TS name began to appear on this tube. Therefore, I would guess that any apparent sonic differences between your TS and Chatham pairs is most likely due to their having been manufactured at different times.


 

 Thanks for the info, still learning about these.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Can I fit 6080s into the wa6?


 

 Nope. No need.
  
 WA6 has a rectifier and drive tubes. No power tubes.
  
 6080 and 6AS7G is a power tube.
  
 I would like a WA6 and adapters to run 6SN7 drive tubes. I think it will be a fun amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Plus I have stacks of Rectifiers and Drive tubes I could use in it.


----------



## Mechans1

I wanted to ask where I can buy GEC 6080s?  I don't see them for sale anywhere which doesn't surprise me but several Headfiers seem to have found them.  Anyone know?


----------



## whirlwind

You could make a thread asking if anybody has them for sale here at head-fi.
  
 Make a thread in the b/s/t forums.......same section that cables are in.......maybe you will get lucky.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Nope. No need.
> 
> WA6 has a rectifier and drive tubes. No power tubes.
> 
> ...



Yeah I have the 6SN7 adapter


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> 3083joe said:
> 
> 
> > Can I fit 6080s into the wa6?
> ...


 

 Thats why i got one and the 6sn7 adapters because i had all the tubes for it ,plus it sounds very good .


----------



## Mechans1

Thanks for your advice, I started to think there was some regular source for them, I am still a newbee.


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> Thanks for your advice, *I started to think there was some regular source for them*, I am still a newbee.


 
  
 Nope. The name of the game is hunt, hunt and hunt some more. The only way to get the popular tubes.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> These are not the same labeling or box that my Mullards came with.  I can't make out any plate structural differences but I think despite the nominal 6080 designation that those tubes are CV 2984s.  Why this matters I am not sure, but the blue box Mullard 6080 is a very good tube with a full rich and clean sound.  I might add that they don't demonstrate the tendency towards warmth that Mullard is known  for.  I find I like them  more than my Chatham/Tung Sol 5998s.  I was surprised myself having really liked the 5998s.


 
  
 The boxes and labeling were mostly about distribution and marketing. Tubes marked CV2984 were destined for the military, those marked Valvo for the German market, Amperex for the North American market, Mullard for the British market, and so on. On any given day, identical tubes coming off the assembly line could be labeled and boxed for several different markets. Sonically, what matters most is the factory and date of manufacture. Tubes manufactured at the same time in the same factory sound the same, regardless of the label.
  
 The 6080 was manufactured in Mullard's Mitcham factory from the mid-1950's through the 1970's, and as one might expect, new technologies and materials were introduced into the production line on numerous occasions over those 20 plus years. And as a result, a 1955 tube sounds different than a 1975 tube. Therefore, if you have two pairs of Mullard 6080 which sound different, it is likely due to different dates of manufacture. Fortunately, Philips/Mullard tubes have production codes which reveal factory, change code and date of manufacture, and if this code is visible, it is relatively easy to figure out where and when any Philips tube was manufactured.


----------



## abvolt

That's very interesting information *gibosi* thanks it explains a lot about my different 6080's like my ge, rca, sylvania's all seem to sound alike, the only exception is the mullards they sound way better but I'm sure their the oldest of the 6080's I own..


----------



## Skylab

adeadcrab said:


> arrived the other day, not too bad..
> 
> 
> How do these compare to RCA 6AS7G?




I think the RCAs are a little better overall. But the GEs are pretty reliably quiet, IME.


----------



## gibosi

abvolt said:


> That's very interesting information *gibosi* thanks it explains a lot about my different 6080's like my ge, rca, sylvania's all seem to sound alike, the only exception is the mullards they sound way better but I'm sure their the oldest of the 6080's I own..


 
  
 I find it very curious that GE, RCA and Sylvania 6080 all sound about the same in your amp. In my amp, they sound very different from one another. Having been manufactured in different factories using different technologies, processes and materials, frankly, I would be surprised if they sounded the same. And then, if two tubes were manufactured in the same factory, but 10 years apart, they likely will sound different. For example, in my collection, a pair of Mullard 6080s from the mid-1950s sound different than a pair manufactured in the mid-1960s, even though both were manufactured in the Mitcham factory.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> I find it very curious that GE, RCA and Sylvania 6080 all sound about the same in your amp. In my amp, they sound very different from one another. Having been manufactured in different factories using different technologies, processes and materials, frankly, I would be surprised if they sounded the same. And then, if two tubes were manufactured in the same factory, but 10 years apart, they likely will sound different. For example, in my collection, a pair of Mullard 6080s from the mid-1950s sound different than a pair manufactured in the mid-1960s, even though both were manufactured in the Mitcham factory.


 
  
 It can depend on the drive tubes used. Every power tube I tried in my WA22 sounded exactly the same using RCA 6SN7's. It wasn't until I went to 6F8G and rolled in the Tung-Sol roundplates and the NU that I could hear differences in power tubes. Using RCA 6SN7 drivers you could use any power tube.
  
 I had a bit of spare time this afternoon so I had a quick listen to the RCA 6080. So far so good. As far as I can tell it is a very nice tube. A lot different sounding to the RCA 6AS7G (Dull). Quick reaction is that it is not much different to the Mullard. A little bit fuller sounding. I haven't listened to a wide variety of music so I need to evaluate a bit more. I will leave them in over the weekend


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> It can depend on the drive tubes used. Every power tube I tried in my WA22 sounded exactly the same using RCA 6SN7's. It wasn't until I went to 6F8G and rolled in the Tung-Sol roundplates and the NU that I could hear differences in power tubes. Using RCA 6SN7 drivers you could use any power tube.




FWIW, I found RCA 6SN7GTB (mid-50s vintage) to sound fairly veiled and muted with the Feliks Elise. Almost like trying to listen through a thin blanket.



> I had a bit of spare time this afternoon so I had a quick listen to the RCA 6080. So far so good. As far as I can tell it is a very nice tube. A lot different sounding to the RCA 6AS7G (Dull). Quick reaction is that it is not much different to the Mullard. A little bit fuller sounding. I haven't listened to a wide variety of music so I need to evaluate a bit more. I will leave them in over the weekend




My experience mirrors yours. I think the RCA 6080 is a very nice sounding tube. I actually stock several pairs just to make sure I have them for years to come. Not quite up to your 14 pair standard ...yet.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> FWIW, I found RCA 6SN7GTB (mid-50s vintage) to sound fairly veiled and muted with the Feliks Elise. Almost like trying to listen through a thin blanket.
> My experience mirrors yours. I think the RCA 6080 is a very nice sounding tube. I actually stock several pairs just to make sure I have them for years to come. Not quite up to your 14 pair standard ...yet.




RCA 6SN7 is defintly veiled. It has a obvious treble roll. Nice mid-range tho. Handy for taming a bright arrangement. I used them for a while until a mate said my DAC was letting me down. I changed the DAC and never looked back. I wouldn't use a veiled tube now. Tubes like the Tung-SoL round plate are on another level.

RCA 6080 is a real nice budget tube. A little fuller compared to Mullard to the expense of a tiny amount of Dynamic range. Instrument separation is a tad bit better on the RCA. However treble is sweeter on the Mullard. Too early to evaluate fully tho. Fairly sure these tubes are truely NOS so the signature could change a lot with burn.


----------



## hodgjy

The RCA 6080 is what came stock with my WA3.  Of course, as soon as I got the amp, I went on a tube rolling roll on a quest to squeeze every bit of euphoria I could out of that amp.  Eventually, I rolled the RCA 6080 back in, and was surprised how good it sounded.  It is just slightly sloppier in the bass than the TS 5998, but still a good tube.  I guess there's a reason why Woo packs it as the stock man times.
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> FWIW, I found RCA 6SN7GTB (mid-50s vintage) to sound fairly veiled and muted with the Feliks Elise. Almost like trying to listen through a thin blanket.
> My experience mirrors yours. I think the RCA 6080 is a very nice sounding tube. I actually stock several pairs just to make sure I have them for years to come. Not quite up to your 14 pair standard ...yet.


 
  
  


badas said:


> RCA 6SN7 is defintly veiled. It has a obvious treble roll. Nice mid-range tho. Handy for taming a bright arrangement. I used them for a while until a mate said my DAC was letting me down. I changed the DAC and never looked back. I wouldn't use a veiled tube now. Tubes like the Tung-SoL round plate are on another level.
> 
> RCA 6080 is a real nice budget tube. A little fuller compared to Mullard to the expense of a tiny amount of Dynamic range. Instrument separation is a tad bit better on the RCA. However treble is sweeter on the Mullard. Too early to evaluate fully tho. Fairly sure these tubes are truely NOS so the signature could change a lot with burn.


----------



## Mechans1

I think the RCA is a very good 6080.  Short of going to a 5998 or to Europe for a 6080 e.g. Mullard I think they are superb.  I haven't invested in the Sylvania 6080 yet so the rankings may change in my book.


----------



## Badas

I did a lot of evaluating over the weekend.
  
 This is what I found:
  
 The Sylvania 6080. A very silky holographic tube. A lot to like. Someone mentioned it can get bright and lean. I have to agree. It has so much detail, very lush and that can get very addictive. However it is not a well balanced tube. Bass is there. It just seems that holographic lushness is at the expense of the mid-range. Great if you have darker drive tubes.
  
 Mullard 6080. This is a toss up between RCA 6080 for me. A do nothing wrong and everything good tube. Good Bass, Nice mid-range and I'm ecstatic about its treble (very sweet). Good soundstage with good instrument separation. Leaner than the RCA. A very polite tube. I'm just wondering if I want polite. At the moment I think yes.
  
 RCA 6080. Damn romantic tube. Deep bass (can get a little muddied with mid-range), Mid-range is that standard RCA sound. Definitely bumped. A very slight treble roll (I really mean very slight). It is a great sound however it just sounds slightly veiled compared to the Mullard.
  
 I'm having a real wrestle between the Mullard and the RCA. I have noted the following tho. I did this test and made the following notes on the RCA v's Mullard.
  
 Bright Music. RCA wins hands down. RCA is warmer and a lot more romantic. Mullard renders well. Treble is right at my tolerance level.
  
 Dynamic Music. RCA wins but not by much. Once again warmer however I feel I'm losing some high frequency detail compared to the Mullard. If the music is slow and dynamic like Alison Krauss then the Mullard wins. It just renders that treble so sweetly.
  
 Dark Music. Mullard wins. The RCA falls apart here. Bass is not as clean. It gets muddied into the mids. Result is the RCA sounds veiled. Mullard is a very well balanced tube and excels on this type of music.
  
 So the result in my mind goes like this:
  
 Bright Music. RCA wins, Mullard tolerable.
  
 Dynamic Music. RCA wins but not by much. I wouldn't really care what tube was in.
  
 Dark Music. Mullard wins by a lot. RCA is not acceptable.
  
 So based on that the Mullard works on more types of music. So at this stage I will stock up on more Mullards. I do like owning and enjoy the RCA tho. I will be seeking a second opinion on this a mate who has the Woo WA5 is coming over especially to give his opinion between the two power tubes.


----------



## abvolt

Very nice impressions on the 6080's helpful for me thanks..


----------



## Shaffer

Do you guys actually swap tubes to compensate for a variance in production values on various recordings?


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> Do you guys actually swap tubes to compensate for a variance in production values on various recordings?


 

 No. I try not to.
  
 I'm aiming to get one set of tubes for all music.
  
 My end setup will likely be Brimar Rectifier, Tung-Sol round plate Drivers and Mullard Power tubes.
  
 So far I have 14 Brimar Rectifiers and 14 sets of Tung-Sol Drivers. I have one set of Mullard power tubes and two more sets on the way. If they are not noisy and have no issues I will likely get 11 more sets and be done with tube rolling.


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> No. I try not to.
> 
> I'm aiming to get one set of tubes for all music.
> 
> ...




Fair enough. 

For my Elise, I'd like to get a few more pairs of RCA 6080 and the Russian 6N13S. If I come across more Chathams, I'll get a few pairs, as well. That's about the extent of my current wish list, other than another brand of 6080 I'd like to try. I have a pair of very interesting, at least to me, 6AS7G on the way. Keeping my fingers crossed.

As for drivers, I'll be using C3g instead of the usual 6SN7. They should be here this week. I'm very excited to hear them and I'd really like them to be my drivers of choice. Then, no more 6SN7s and I could dump more cash into, perhaps, a higher grade pair of power tubes. I'd like to know what I'm missing.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 What amp are you using? Glenn pushes the C3g. Suppose to be a superb tube. Nearly had a listen to them at a mates house. However Jack from Woo Audio said stop immediately. You have to respect the maker. So my mate is getting a custom Glenn amp made with C3g as the drivers.
  
 Like this, however with a XLR output added.
  

  
 Edit: Okay sorry. I just looked up Elise amp. Very nice. For some reason Jack from Woo Audio told us not to use the C3g plus the adapter in the 6SN7 circuit. I don't know why?


----------



## gibosi

My Glenn OTL can roll either a single 6SN7 or two C3gs... and the GEC 6080s are pretty nice too.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Edit: Okay sorry. I just looked up Elise amp. Very nice. For some reason Jack from Woo Audio told us not to use the C3g plus the adapter in the 6SN7 circuit. I don't know why?


 
  
 This is pretty typical of most manufacturers and it comes down to warranty service and customer support. If the customer tries to use a tube that is not on the company's recommended list and something bad happens, the customer likely will turn to the company for help. And to put it very simply, Woo does not want to have to provide support for every and any odd-ball tube a customer tries to use.
  
 And the C3g is about as odd as you can get. The C3g is a single pentode. And therefore, it is necessary for the adapter to convert it to a single triode. Next, the adapter must somehow enable a single triode to fit into a socket designed for a double triode, with two of everything. Further, the correct bias for a C3g is very different than that of a 6SN7, especially the value of the cathode resister. So the adapter needs to compensate for this variance as well. All this can be done if one is clever enough. But Woo doesn't know anything about the adapter you might be using, how well it is designed or how well it is built. So of course, their position is do not use it....
  
 But this does not mean it will not work. If it is designed properly and carefully built, it will work very well. And if you do decide to try the C3gs in your Woo, I would suggest that it might be best if you don't tell them.


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> Edit: Okay sorry. I just looked up Elise amp. Very nice. For some reason Jack from Woo Audio told us not to use the C3g plus the adapter in the 6SN7 circuit. I don't know why?




To add to gibosi's post, my C3gs are coming with a specially built pair of adapters. Credit must be given to Glenn, without whose invaluable advice it would not have been possible.

As I'd like to add a transformer-coupled amp to the stable, because the other four amplifiers are not enough, I may be contacting Glenn once I get all of my ducks in a row. The amp you posted looks terrific, BTW. I'm kinda thinking of a 2A3-based SET.


----------



## Badas

^

Thanks for the info guys. Very interesting. I knew some of that stuff but not all. 

Glenn made the adapter for my friends WA5. I have the WA22 and was told the C3g was not possible at all. 

I'm okay with that tho. I am happy with the Tung-Sol round plate drivers. A very stunning tube.

I will monitor how my friends Glenn amp proceeds. I think I will be tempted to do the same next year.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Glenn made the adapter for my friends WA5. I have the WA22 and was told the C3g was not possible at all.


 
  
 I doubt this is true....  Who told you it was not possible to use the C3g in a WA22?


----------



## 2359glenn

badas said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough.
> ...


 

 Question is why did you tell Woo you were doing this?


----------



## 2359glenn

badas said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough.
> ...


 

 Doing a mod so this amp will also be able to use #45 tubes as well as the 300B


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> I doubt this is true....  Who told you it was not possible to use the C3g in a WA22?




I heard it 3rd hand. I don't know if it is accurate. In my case it doesn't matter. I am happy with the Tung-Sol round plates as drivers. 




2359glenn said:


> Question is why did you tell Woo you were doing this?




We didn't. The Aussie guy talked to him. 



2359glenn said:


> Doing a mod so this amp will also be able to use #45 tubes as well as the 300B




Truely awesome.


----------



## 3083joe

2359glenn said:


> Doing a mod so this amp will also be able to use #45 tubes as well as the 300B



Truly a beauty!!


----------



## Shaffer

Just want to mention, as a FYI, that the price of a Feliks Audo Elise goes up in 2 days. If you're thinking of one, now is there time.


----------



## musicman2006

I would like to know if other people have had much success with RCA 6AS7G tubes in Woo Audio amps. I bought a couple NOS and they both happen to hum very badly in my WA2 amp ! I can tell the music itself sounds better but the hum is unbearable. I'm not sure If I should give up on the 6AS7 type or keep spending money trying to find a quiet tube


----------



## 3083joe

musicman2006 said:


> I would like to know if other people have had much success with RCA 6AS7G tubes in Woo Audio amps. I bought a couple NOS and they both happen to hum very badly in my WA2 amp ! I can tell the music itself sounds better but the hum is unbearable. I'm not sure If I should give up on the 6AS7 type or keep spending money trying to find a quiet tube



cleaning could help as the tubes even new are old and could have something on them 
Try something like this 
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/13657711113175958378?q=speaker+contact+cleaner&client=safari&hl=en&biw=375&bih=559&prds=paur:ClkAsKraX4xzw2upnOD-na5bh5_cCUaoDyxFuAGruNqWH2UWw2H05nFqDcwGu3feJzMF6yU-lEis3sgQiu6A1H2kXFqLKmPO76Rb2hR_RdiPKrVOcMwpyrkpCBIZAFPVH702wQankR2jb2j57m8ghjKq8CTlKQ&sa=X&ei=WFqEVbrxEI-vogTBiLnACQ&ved=0CCYQ8wIwBQ
Couldn't hurt.


----------



## musicman2006

3083joe said:


> cleaning could help as the tubes even new are old and could have something on them
> Try something like this
> https://www.google.com/shopping/product/13657711113175958378?q=speaker+contact+cleaner&client=safari&hl=en&biw=375&bih=559&prds=paur:ClkAsKraX4xzw2upnOD-na5bh5_cCUaoDyxFuAGruNqWH2UWw2H05nFqDcwGu3feJzMF6yU-lEis3sgQiu6A1H2kXFqLKmPO76Rb2hR_RdiPKrVOcMwpyrkpCBIZAFPVH702wQankR2jb2j57m8ghjKq8CTlKQ&sa=X&ei=WFqEVbrxEI-vogTBiLnACQ&ved=0CCYQ8wIwBQ
> Couldn't hurt.


 

 Well that's interesting. I guess I could try some rubbing alcohol on the pins in the meantime and see if that clears anything up.


----------



## 3083joe

musicman2006 said:


> Well that's interesting. I guess I could try some rubbing alcohol on the pins in the meantime and see if that clears anything up.



I know a lot of people that this has helped lots. Ordered some myself.


----------



## Badas

musicman2006 said:


> I would like to know if other people have had much success with RCA 6AS7G tubes in Woo Audio amps. I bought a couple NOS and they both happen to hum very badly in my WA2 amp ! I can tell the music itself sounds better but the hum is unbearable. I'm not sure If I should give up on the 6AS7 type or keep spending money trying to find a quiet tube




Exact same thing in my WA22. I have many, many types of 6AS7G's. So many are noisy and hum. I have given up on them and using 6080 instead.


----------



## hdtv00

I guess owning over 20 tubes and others comments I thought I'd buy some. Here is cheapest I found so $8 that may help with my 25-30 tubes , why not I guess.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/400662735760?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Badas

^

It certainly cleans the pins up like new. It makes dull pins look like mirrors. I also like that it makes tubes easier to install and remove. 

My four Mullard 6080 tubes from Langrex is a complete fail. All four are noisy. Not the pins guys. I have cleaned them all twice. They just don't work well in the circuit. I don't know why?
I have just rolled in the stock tubes (GE 6080) and so far they sound great. Most importantly they are super quiet. Maybe in this case I will just stay with stock. A bit of a shock.


----------



## abvolt

That's too bad on your mullards must be bad tubes because my 2 pair sound better then any others I own..
 Have you tried a early 50's pair of 6AS7G RCA's. I have 3 pair that sound just great, close to my mullard 6080's in sq..


----------



## mikoss

I've got some GEC 6080's that were sold to me NOS. I haven't tried them or tested them, but I will post up when I do. From what I've heard, they have very liquid sounding midrange; a slight emphasis on the upper mids to my ears. I personally enjoy them the most for guitars, vs most of the other power tubes I've heard.
  
 I think I'm going to consider going to an Eddie Current amp, if I can find one that doesn't break the bank... if I do I'll post up whatever tubes I have, with tested data and all that. I can also personally verify if they're noisy with my WA2 beforehand as well. The RCA 6AS7G's that I have are definitely not noisy... my problems were with some Tung Sol 5998's. F%^$ing things were expensive, and then one of them sounded windy every once in a while.


----------



## DavidA

mikoss said:


> I've got some GEC 6080's that were sold to me NOS. I haven't tried them or tested them, but I will post up when I do. From what I've heard, they have very liquid sounding midrange; a slight emphasis on the upper mids to my ears. I personally enjoy them the most for guitars, vs most of the other power tubes I've heard.
> 
> I think I'm going to consider going to an Eddie Current amp, if I can find one that doesn't break the bank... if I do I'll post up whatever tubes I have, with tested data and all that. I can also personally verify if they're noisy with my WA2 beforehand as well. The RCA 6AS7G's that I have are definitely not noisy... my problems were with some Tung Sol 5998's. F%^$ing things were expensive, and then one of them sounded windy every once in a while.


 
 Hi Mike,
 Did you clean the pins on the TS-5998?  Mine were a little corroded so used the Deoxit and got rid of any noise they had.


----------



## JamieMcC

mikoss said:


> I've got some GEC 6080's that were sold to me NOS. I haven't tried them or tested them, but I will post up when I do. From what I've heard, they have very liquid sounding midrange; a slight emphasis on the upper mids to my ears. I personally enjoy them the most for guitars, vs most of the other power tubes I've heard.
> 
> I think I'm going to consider going to an Eddie Current amp, if I can find one that doesn't break the bank... if I do I'll post up whatever tubes I have, with tested data and all that. I can also personally verify if they're noisy with my WA2 beforehand as well. The RCA 6AS7G's that I have are definitely not noisy... my problems were with some Tung Sol 5998's. F%^$ing things were expensive, and then one of them sounded windy every once in a while.


 
  
 The GEC 6080 come from the same factory as the legendary A1834 GEC 6as7 brown base with which it shares the same plate structure in the 6as7g version the getters are relocated at the base of the bottle rather than the top. With the 6as7g version the getter shape can also vary between halo and cup/saucer shape but both sound nearly identical.  The GEC 6080 is one of the top of 6080's imho and getting harder now to find


----------



## mikoss

It's a nice tube for sure... I love the GEC sound. Very refined, organic and true to the music. It doesn't sound forced or exaggerated to me at all. I think the magic is in the midrange... I find it very liquid and holographic myself. Haven't heard the 6AS7G version but it has a reputation for sure


----------



## Mechans1

badas said:


> ^
> 
> It certainly cleans the pins up like new. It makes dull pins look like mirrors. I also like that it makes tubes easier to install and remove.
> 
> ...


 
 What kind of noise do you find with the Mullards.  I have had a pretty beat up used to death WE421A which makes a low midrange buzz with occasional crackling sounds (no actual crack.).   You should send the back to Langrex in any event.  My WE was as is as found BS.


----------



## abvolt

I'd like to ask if this noise your getting is from the vintage mullards or the new mullards you have, I was thinking of trying a pair of the new mullards..


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> What kind of noise do you find with the Mullards.  I have had a pretty beat up used to death WE421A which makes a low midrange buzz with occasional crackling sounds (no actual crack.).   You should send the back to Langrex in any event.  My WE was as is as found BS.


 

 Yeah. It is a similar sound to what you described.
  
 Not really a Langrex problem. I'm sure it is the amp circuit. Information is coming out that the Woo WA22 is touchy on power tubes. Some users are saying that a tube that is noisy on the WA22 is quiet on the WA2.
  
 Annoying.


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I'd like to ask if this noise your getting is from the vintage mullards or the new mullards you have, I was thinking of trying a pair of the new mullards..


 
  
 I've got two different types of Mullard 6080's. A set with the Mullard logo on it and 2 sets with no logo but Military markings. Both have identical construction. Both types have the same noise.


----------



## hdtv00

I got my DetoxIT D series , although they shipped wrong version I ordered 2mll tube 100% solution they sent can 5% solution. Anyway I cleaned my 5998 I got for $30 that gives me trouble. I'd put it in and it wouldn't turn on. It's been like that since day one. Everything seems fine it would just make me pull it out put it back in 5-15 times or whatever but it would always turn on. No amount of wiggle or moving it worked, always taking it out putting it back would eventually work. Well after spraying it down wiping it clean I've put it in twice now and both times it fired right up without any hassle at all. So cool stuff.
  
 Although I will say they said they'd send the right one. The spray I find it is annoying to work with on pins for tubes. It sprays a good amount even on low setting and it gets everywhere. I much prefer the 100% solution you can wipe on to a spray that literally goes everywhere.
  
 Oh and I wanna add that the tube pins looked perfectly fine. Not a single sign of corrosion at all. So I guess I'll be using it on all my tubes just to keep em nice and working to their best. So maybe it cleans even what we can't see or detect. Also no other tube I have did that and I have at least 12 power tubes, it was just that one tube.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Good result.
  
 I had a similar one last night. I have 3 sets of the Tung-Sol 6AS7G's (1 set labeled Chatham). A very nice tube. 1 set had 1 noisy tube. Plus pulling in and out had loosened the bases. So I did the clear nail polish trick to fix the bases (works so well. I have done that a number of times). Then cleaned the pins on the noisy tube. 100% quiet now. I will keep these in for a week now and give them a blast.
 So far I like. A little lean. However I think I need that in my tube arrangement. I'm using the LCD3's so a tad lean can lift the sound up a bit to let it breath.


----------



## hdtv00

NOOOO so I cleaned the few tubes in my crack. I went and cleaned my fav tube for my aune T1 that feeds the crack put it back in and it fried the tube. Yes I wiped all the stuff off, the top of the tube melted it seems. Now I'm super nervous cleaning any of them...


----------



## Badas

^
  





  
 Weird.


----------



## abvolt

simply cleaning tubes ? must be something else..


----------



## hdtv00

I freaked out so I went back thinking about every step. I forgot I dropped the damn tube when I was cleaning it, it slipped out of my hand. Perhaps it landed right on the top of tube and broke the top part that sticks out. Must have been it. I have like 15 or more tubes and it was of two that were miles above the others. Bummed out big time.


----------



## mikoss

hdtv00 said:


> NOOOO so I cleaned the few tubes in my crack. I went and cleaned my fav tube for my aune T1 that feeds the crack put it back in and it fried the tube. Yes I wiped all the stuff off, the top of the tube melted it seems. Now I'm super nervous cleaning any of them...


 
 Shi7
  
 Can you show us some pics?? Which tube was it?
  
 Did the top getter flashing turn white? If it cracked, this will most likely happen. If not now, check tomorrow and it should gradually turn white/transparent.


----------



## hdtv00

Oh yea man its white as can be , lucky really I seen it because when it never made sound after hitting play in foobar, it was VERY VERY HOT. So I turned it off real quick then noticed it was white and I remember seeing people say thats how you know they go bad. Then I noticed top has junk out of it then i thought back and I remember I dropped it from height of just 3 ft maybe onto hard kitchen floor. Must of been what it was.
  
 You can flip through the pics I just took here.
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/hdtv00/19137439591/in/album-72157654621343720/lightbox/


----------



## mikoss

Hmm does that tube have any date/batch code info marked on the side? I realize it's an orange labelled Amperex tube (looks to be an ECC88 perhaps), but the halo getter doesn't look like a Philips build. Just wondering, if you want an equivalent tube, I may have one for ya.

Ps. Welcome to the club...


----------



## Mechans1

abvolt said:


> I'd like to ask if this noise your getting is from the vintage mullards or the new mullards you have, I was thinking of trying a pair of the new mullards..


 

 I bought mine on eBay from a private or very small tube guy in Europe.  Mine came with the blue Mullard boxes an the tubes are marked "Mullard 6080 made in Great Britain" with a metal base.  I have absolutely quiet tubes no off noises whatsoever and they sound great.  I don't know if the Langrex tubes are the same but I was told here that they all came from one Philips plant and just labeled differently for the market they were being sold to.  I would buy some and see if I were you as I said mine are problem free no noises etc.


----------



## Mechans1

mikoss said:


> Hmm does that tube have any date/batch code info marked on the side? I realize it's an orange labelled Amperex tube (looks to be an ECC88 perhaps), but the halo getter doesn't look like a Philips build. Just wondering, if you want an equivalent tube, I may have one for ya.
> 
> Ps. Welcome to the club...


 

 Where  is the flashing? The tube pictured has no flashing/gettering that I can see.  That is where the getter usually is.  A lot of the ECC88 E88CC etc. family use "frame grid" disc getters, is that what you have? Is it a halo?  Can you describe it for us?


----------



## mikoss

mechans1 said:


> Where  is the flashing? The tube pictured has no flashing/gettering that I can see.  That is where the getter usually is.  A lot of the ECC88 E88CC etc. family use "frame grid" disc getters, is that what you have? Is it a halo?  Can you describe it for us?


 
 Yes, it's bork. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 This is a Sovtek Russian 6922 that I accidentally rolled off my kitchen counter when I was making a stand for my tubes. It has a round "saucer" getter and I would not recommend these tubes anyway. Unless you enjoy the Russian sound. To me, too much treble energy, and it sounds etchy/like broken glass (no pun intended)/nails on a chalkboard.


----------



## hdtv00

Yea the two that sound the best to me are exactly like the one I pictured broke, but all my other orange globes and I have many the ones on left are for Aune T1 for DAC use almost all are orange globes. Be it round dimple disk getter, to A frames , even few halo getters but the construction on the two perfect precious ones are different from the other halo getters I have. Hope that one last me years.

  
 Guess when I clean pins on all my other tubes included 6 or so other tubes I'll do it from sitting on couch in nice safe place. Lesson learned. The construction on the one I broke was something special I'll tell ya. Sucks.


----------



## adeadcrab

How have people been cleaning their tubes with deoxit? I was simply rolling tubes with deoxit brushed on, and wiping off after if they looked green when rolling tubes out.

 Today I took some tissue paper, folded it over and wrapped it tightly around each individual pin. What I found was a ton of black and green residue coming off each pin. If you aren't cleaning thoroughly I would recommend trying it.


----------



## adeadcrab

For reference, the driver tubes cleaned were 5693 reds, and I was suspecting one was going noisy. Have used deoxit on them in the past and given a quick wipe took off some gunk. A good clean and now and I no longer going through ebay, looking for replacement 5693! Awesome.


----------



## hdtv00

I've only ever bought from ebay or here. Not a single tube I own has noise. I been using a q tip to rub mine after spraying them with detox from spray can with straw nozzle. I'd say yea stuff came off my pins some more than others even when the pins looked clean. And I've now taken that one 5998 tube out and put back in 5 times now and every single time it works right off. Before I'd have to put it in take it out 20 times before the crack would come on. So clearly the pins on it had something going on that the Detox cleaned up.
  
 I ordered another one of the tubes I lost last night went through hundreds of tubes looking for a structure like the one I lost. I found only the one. Hopefully it'll sound as good as the old one.
  
 I have all my rectifiers cleaned now just need to move onto the smaller ones 12au7's and 6dj8 types and I'm golden.
  
 I was gonna actually take pics of the q tips to show what was coming off the pins even though to me the pins look clean to the eye. But I figured that was overboard and none of you would care so I didn't take pics.


----------



## DavidA

hdtv00 said:


> I've only ever bought from ebay or here. Not a single tube I own has noise. I been using a q tip to rub mine after spraying them with detox from spray can with straw nozzle. I'd say yea stuff came off my pins some more than others even when the pins looked clean. And I've now taken that one 5998 tube out and put back in 5 times now and every single time it works right off. Before I'd have to put it in take it out 20 times before the crack would come on. So clearly the pins on it had something going on that the Detox cleaned up.
> 
> I ordered another one of the tubes I lost last night went through hundreds of tubes looking for a structure like the one I lost. I found only the one. Hopefully it'll sound as good as the old one.
> 
> ...


 

 Actually I think some might want to see, me included, I've cleaned all my tubes so don't know if I'll get anything showing what can come off the pins.


----------



## adeadcrab




----------



## DavidA

Do you use the gold one to protect the pins after you clean with the red?


----------



## adeadcrab

davida said:


> Do you use the gold one to protect the pins after you clean with the red?


 
 For me, I will keep cleaning the pins every other day until they leave no residue, and the apply the protective layer.


----------



## DavidA

I've found that 2 cleanings is sufficient and protecting the clean pins with the gold keeps them from oxidizing again.


----------



## adeadcrab

Same tubes (5693 reds), the next day, after cleaning yesterday, reapplying deoxit and rolling back into amp. 

Is this just the deoxit going green by this stage, or more oxidation?


----------



## DavidA

The oxidation could be from the sockets unless you opened up your amp and cleaned them also?  Don't forget to use the gold to protect the pins after cleaning.


----------



## adeadcrab

probably from the sockets..


----------



## abvolt

I just took a lot longer listen to some on my 6as7g's and admit the GE's are very nice sounding guess I must of forgot how good they are, almost as good as the mullard 6080's..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I just took a lot longer listen to some on my 6as7g's and admit the GE's are very nice sounding guess I must of forgot how good they are, almost as good as the mullard 6080's..


 

 That's what I'm finding. Not exactly the same but close. More important to me is I have now rolled 2 sets and both are the quietest tubes I have heard in my amp. I have 3 sets of Mullards. All are noisy in my amp.
  
 I have rolled between the black base more bottle version and the normal metal base. For some reason the black base has a fuller sound. I don't know why. The internals look exactly the same. Maybe just different times of manufacture makes a difference.


----------



## abvolt

I agree the black base is the best sounding the metal base ge 6080's not very special in fact I've sold all of mine except 1 pair of 5 stars..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I agree the black base is the best sounding the metal base ge 6080's not very special in fact I've sold all of mine except 1 pair of 5 stars..


 

 I have a supplier that sells these in bunches of 20 tubes. That is where I got samples from. He sent me 4 for free. I will likely get a bunch of 20 of him.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> abvolt said:
> 
> 
> > I agree the black base is the best sounding the metal base ge 6080's not very special in fact I've sold all of mine except 1 pair of 5 stars..
> ...


 
 So a link maybe?


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> So a link maybe?


 

 No links. We do business the old fashion way. Dial up phone calls.


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> badas said:
> 
> 
> > abvolt said:
> ...


 
 He mention this awhile ago i think  its Langrex.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > So a link maybe?
> ...


 
 Too bad for me i don't have  dial up anymore..........


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> He mention this awhile ago i think  its Langrex.


 

 No. Not Langrex. Altho I think they stock them.
  
 The supplier is Harry from Aussie. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have purchased heaps from him.


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Too bad for me i don't have  dial up anymore..........


 

 Yeah. It seems weird but that is how the guy operates. He has pure gold. His tubes are the best conditioned I have received.


----------



## abvolt

Heres a guy with a lot of 20 ge 6as7g seems like a good deal also..
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/general-electric-co-6as7ga-/291502467539?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item43dee6a9d3


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> Heres a guy with a lot of 20 ge 6as7g seems like a good deal also..
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/general-electric-co-6as7ga-/291502467539?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item43dee6a9d3


 

 That's them.
  
 That is Harry. I just deal with him direct, not through eBarf / eSlay.


----------



## abvolt

ebarf is right I hate using that source  Lol..


----------



## Shaffer

What's wrong with Ebay? Ginormous selection, as close to a perfect market as we get (in an academic sense) - an opportunity to play very little for high-quality tubes. Where is the problem?

I got two bad tubes once. The seller was unresponsive. Ebay was. The money was back in my account as soon as the return delivery reached its target, postage paid by Ebay.


----------



## adeadcrab

shaffer said:


> What's wrong with Ebay? Ginormous selection, as close to a perfect market as we get (in an academic sense) - an opportunity to play very little for high-quality tubes. Where is the problem?
> 
> I got two bad tubes once. The seller was unresponsive. Ebay was. The money was back in my account as soon as the return delivery reached its target, postage paid by Ebay.


 


 I've bought a pair of RCA 6AS7G (labelled RCA on the photos etc), arrives as 'haltron' brand, not what was in the picture. Rebranded russian 6AS7G, I bought it for 3 times what I would normally pay for that tube.


----------



## Shaffer

adeadcrab said:


> I've bought a pair of RCA 6AS7G (labelled RCA on the photos etc), arrives as 'haltron' brand, not what was in the picture. Rebranded russian 6AS7G, I bought it for 3 times what I would normally pay for that tube.




As the tubes you received were not what was advertised, you're entitled to a full refund. Ebay makes this easy. Just fill out a simple form, they give you a shipping label, and then you get your refund.


----------



## adeadcrab

^ This was ages ago now, I didn't know any better and left the seller 5 stars.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> What's wrong with Ebay? Ginormous selection, as close to a perfect market as we get (in an academic sense) - an opportunity to play very little for high-quality tubes. Where is the problem?
> 
> I got two bad tubes once. The seller was unresponsive. Ebay was. The money was back in my account as soon as the return delivery reached its target, postage paid by Ebay.




No doubt. Some very good sellers on eBay. However I also think there is a lot of sellers selling doggy stuff. I've come across a few Cowboys. I also get the impression there is a few sellers that have bought bad tubes and they flick them off to someone else. Especially if they are rare and expensive. I have learned to spot those auctions. Also hard to get good service overseas. Often the freight back to the seller costs more than the tubes. I would rather buy from a seller who has a massive stock of a particular tube. If you buy a small test sample at it works out then you can stock up. Very unlikely to get problems. 

GE6AS7G is a very nice tube. As previously posted it is very close to the Mullard 6080. I'm listening to it right now. The last few days I've just felt it was missing something that the Mullard does well. I've just clicked. It is not as dynamic. A little flatter for a lack of a better word. 

Given its sell price it is a great budget tube. It is quiet in my amp where the Mullard is noisy. So I think I will make it my tube of choice. I will evaluate for a little longer first.


----------



## adeadcrab

^ are you talking about the GE 6AS7GA? If it is, I don't like the bloominess in the bass compared to other tubes.


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> ^ This was ages ago now, I didn't know any better and left the seller 5 stars.




Most of us have made that mistake. Part of the learning curve. :rolleyes:




adeadcrab said:


> ^ are you talking about the GE 6AS7GA? If it is, I don't like the bloominess in the bass compared to other tubes.




Yes I am. Ha. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it. Probably why I thought it was flatter. I hope it doesn't annoy me. I want to like this tube. Not many options for quiet tubes in the Woo WA22.


----------



## adeadcrab

badas said:


> Most of us have made that mistake. Part of the learning curve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Sennheiser 650 already has rolled off treble and bloomy bass, switching to a grado headphone as I did now is a lot nicer.


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> Sennheiser 650 already has rolled off treble and bloomy bass, switching to a grado headphone as I did now is a lot nicer.




I actually like a semi dark sound signature. Hence I use the classic LCD3. I plan to get the Ether or the HD800 (modified to take some treble of it). So a bit of bloomy bass would be okay. 

Still enjoying the tube.


----------



## adeadcrab

badas said:


> I actually like a semi dark sound signature. Hence I use the classic LCD3. I plan to get the Ether or the HD800 (modified to take some treble of it). So a bit of bloomy bass would be okay.
> 
> Still enjoying the tube.


 
 I don't mind the dark signature either, just that 650 + GE 6AS7GA was too much. 

 At the end of the day I'm enjoying the GE too.


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> I don't mind the dark signature either, just that 650 + GE 6AS7GA was too much.
> 
> At the end of the day I'm enjoying the GE too.


 

 I think you may be right. It may be too dark for the LCD-3 as well. I won't pull it out yet. I will give it time. The set I have in at the moment are also under 10 hours use. So no burn in yet.
  
 One tube I really do like is the Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G. Not the RCA version with the flap down the bottom. The Tung-Sol 6AS7G is a little lean but very lively. A very nice full sound. It suits the LCD-3. I have 3 sets of them and would like more. Very rarely do they come up for sale. However owning 3 sets that should mean they will last 15 years. I should be able to get more in that time.
  
 Pic below:


----------



## bocosb

Anyone knows what kind of tubes are these? except the marking 6080WA on the one on the right there's nothing else, not on the base, not on the glass.. also the one on the left has copper rods and a weird wire with a little spring attached above the base


----------



## Badas

^
  
 The one on the left looks like an early Sylvania before they went to a 3 micra system. The micras look Sylvania. Support rods don't tho.
  
 The one on the right looks RCA. However the bottle shape at the bottom looks different. It could be Raytheon.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> No doubt. Some very good sellers on eBay. However I also think there is a lot of sellers selling doggy stuff. I've come across a few Cowboys. I also get the impression there is a few sellers that have bought bad tubes and they flick them off to someone else. Especially if they are rare and expensive. I have learned to spot those auctions. Also hard to get good service overseas. Often the freight back to the seller costs more than the tubes. I would rather buy from a seller who has a massive stock of a particular tube. If you buy a small test sample at it works out then you can stock up. Very unlikely to get problems.
> 
> GE6AS7G is a very nice tube. As previously posted it is very close to the Mullard 6080. I'm listening to it right now. The last few days I've just felt it was missing something that the Mullard does well. I've just clicked. It is not as dynamic. A little flatter for a lack of a better word.
> 
> Given its sell price it is a great budget tube. It is quiet in my amp where the Mullard is noisy. So I think I will make it my tube of choice. I will evaluate for a little longer first.


 
  
  
 My thoughts  there are a lot of honest dealers on ebay no doubt but their are also a lot of nefarious ones which has been my luck lately..


----------



## 2359glenn

abvolt said:


> badas said:
> 
> 
> > No doubt. Some very good sellers on eBay. However I also think there is a lot of sellers selling doggy stuff. I've come across a few Cowboys. I also get the impression there is a few sellers that have bought bad tubes and they flick them off to someone else. Especially if they are rare and expensive. I have learned to spot those auctions. Also hard to get good service overseas. Often the freight back to the seller costs more than the tubes. I would rather buy from a seller who has a massive stock of a particular tube. If you buy a small test sample at it works out then you can stock up. Very unlikely to get problems.
> ...


 

 On E-Pay you are better off buying singles and put them together for allot less money then a so called matched pair. Anybody can put two tubes of the
 same brand and look similar and call them a matched pair and sell them for 10X the price. I can still buy 6F8 singles for $4 and people are paying $100+
 for a matched pair on E-Pay. You just have to know what you are buying there can be NU round plate 6F8s that are labeled GE that cat be gotten for
 little.


----------



## abvolt

cool thanks glenn does it matter if their different brands ?


----------



## Badas

2359glenn said:


> On E-Pay you are better off buying singles and put them together for allot less money then a so called matched pair. Anybody can put two tubes of the
> same brand and look similar and call them a matched pair and sell them for 10X the price. I can still buy 6F8 singles for $4 and people are paying $100+
> for a matched pair on E-Pay. You just have to know what you are buying there can be NU round plate 6F8s that are labeled GE that cat be gotten for
> little.


 
  
 Good point. Good strategy.
  
 In regards to NU. Be aware I have a RCA with NU plates. Very slight internal construction (plates are closer together). The RCA sounds very different.


abvolt said:


> cool thanks glenn does it matter if their different brands ?


 
  
 Nope. Just get use to the internal design. I have seen the NU 6F8G with about 4 different brands stamped. They are all the same internally.
  
 On the 6AS7G. I have the RCA version myself stamped RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon and Tung-Sol. All are internally the same. All sound the same.
  
 On the Sylvania 6080. I have Sylvania, Brimar and Telefunkin. Once again they are all the same. Don't get fooled to pay Telefunkin prices for a Sylvania.


----------



## abvolt

very helpful thanks..


----------



## Mechans1

Sorry late reply very very late, but it should be emphasized that the flying saucer getter is an indication of a tube widely used to counterfeit others and has really bad sonics , which you described well IMO. I am not fond of the old style Russian tubes.  I do like the "re issue"  Gold Lions a lot.  The power tubes are really good and sound as good as precious NOS examples.
 This didn't come out in relation to the discovery of a flying saucer getter where it would make sense. My apologies--


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> Sorry late reply very very late, but it should be emphasized that the flying saucer getter is an indication of a tube widely used to counterfeit others....


 
  
 I do not know which post you are replying to, but I think your use of the word "counterfeit" might be a bit over the top. In all cases I am aware of, the marketing and sale of rebranded tubes manufactured using Russian assembly line equipment was a very common practice and perfectly legal. I don't see it as being any different than a tube manufactured by Tung-Sol being marketed and sold with RCA branding, for example.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> I do not know which post you are replying to, but I think your use of the word "counterfeit" might be a bit over the top. In all cases I am aware of, the marketing and sale of rebranded tubes manufactured using Russian assembly line equipment was a very common practice and perfectly legal. I don't see it as being any different than a tube manufactured by Tung-Sol being marketed and sold with RCA branding, for example.


 

 There is some obvious couterfeits. I have seen the Russian tube with really nice GEC and Mullard logo's on them. As if they were printed yesterday. Someone paid top price for them also.
  
 I know what you mean tho. A lot are marketing rebrands.


----------



## attmci

Badas,
 I noticed you had complained about microphonic tubes numerous times. Have you ever tried some TUBE AMP DAMPERS?


----------



## Badas

attmci said:


> Badas,
> I noticed you had complained about microphonic tubes numerous times. Have you ever tried some TUBE AMP DAMPERS?


 

 Yip. No change.
  
 I have kinda discovered that the Woo WA22 is not nice to 6080/6AS7g tubes. It is the circuit.
 Other Woo users have discovered 6080 works well in the WA2 then the same tube will be noisy in the WA22. It seems to be the new production WA22's. The older ones are fine.


----------



## attmci

badas said:


> Yip. No change.
> 
> I have kinda discovered that the Woo WA22 is not nice to 6080/6AS7g tubes. It is the circuit.
> Other Woo users have discovered 6080 works well in the WA2 then the same tube will be noisy in the WA22. It seems to be the new production WA22's. The older ones are fine.


 

 I see. That's too bad.
  
 Time to upgrade.


----------



## abvolt

I wonder if woo has changed anything in the wa22 mine is only like 45 days old, I never had any noise from any of my 36 different 6080's/6as7's it might be they fixed something..


----------



## Badas

attmci said:


> I see. That's too bad.
> 
> Time to upgrade.


 





 Only got the thing.


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I wonder if woo has changed anything in the wa22 mine is only like 45 days old, I never had any noise from any of my 36 different 6080's/6as7's it might be they fixed something..


 

 Has yours got the stepped volume control? I understand they have changed that. Mine is stepped.
  
 I think Woo were getting complaints. So maybe they have fixed.


----------



## abvolt

not sure i've looked inside, maybe also because i've rolled so few tubes, unknown why..


----------



## adeadcrab

Might be worth visiting a repair shop, if something needs fixing ask woo to pay the bill or at least part of it?


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> not sure i've looked inside, maybe also because i've rolled so few tubes, unknown why..


 

 When you adjust the volume does it move freely or does it have notches? (steps). No reason I just understand that he is changing a lot of the designs. Could be why some of us WA22 owners are having problems.
   


adeadcrab said:


> Might be worth visiting a repair shop, if something needs fixing ask woo to pay the bill or at least part of it?


 

  
 I can't be bothered. I have found the GE6AS7GA power tube works fine. Not perfect but close enough. So I will just stock up on those.


----------



## Mechans1

badas said:


> No. Not Langrex. Altho I think they stock them.
> 
> The supplier is Harry from Aussie.
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry but I wanted to look this vendor/seller up using searches but found no Harry from Australia.  Would you kind enough to let me in on this guy. It's unlikely that I would buy him out of most tubes as my collection is maturing and I haven't got the spending money anymore.  I am just curious about what he stocks really. 
 Thanks


----------



## MIKELAP

mechans1 said:


> badas said:
> 
> 
> > No. Not Langrex. Altho I think they stock them.
> ...


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> Sorry but I wanted to look this vendor/seller up using searches but found no Harry from Australia.  Would you kind enough to let me in on this guy. It's unlikely that I would buy him out of most tubes as my collection is maturing and I haven't got the spending money anymore.  I am just curious about what he stocks really.
> Thanks


 

 I will PM you his non eBay details.


----------



## attmci

badas said:


> When you adjust the volume does it move freely or does it have notches? (steps). No reason I just understand that he is changing a lot of the designs. Could be why some of us WA22 owners are having problems.
> 
> 
> I can't be bothered. I have found the GE6AS7GA power tube works fine. Not perfect but close enough. So I will just stock up on those.


 

 My bad. I thought you stored 20 pairs of GEC 6AS7G, which will be overkill.
  
 You deserve a pair of better tubes, man.


----------



## Badas

attmci said:


> You deserve a pair of better tubes, man.


 
  
 I know.
  
 GEC 6AS7G, TS 5998, WE 421A are just too expensive now. Plus they could be noisy in my WA22. I wish there was a good easy to get 6080/6AS7G.
  
 GE is okay and quiet. Sometimes it is best to pick your battles. So the GE will do. I have found that the power tubes effect the overall sound of the WA22 the least as well. Drivers and Rectifiers are more important.


----------



## abvolt

they are very spendy I was looking a pair of ts5998's nearly 500 too rich for me, but I'd sure like a listen..


----------



## hdtv00

You can get 5998's for $100 easy you just have to keep looking. $500 for a pair is god damn ridiculous for 5998's. But some ****** in here wanted $350 for a pair. Don't get sucked in on people trying to profit. I bought one for $30 couple months ago. They're out there, just believe.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/TungSol-5998-NOS-Vacuum-Tube-Tests-Excellent-421A-A1834-/181790413814?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2a538d93f6
  
  
 421A though are gonna cost ya $200 at least probably.
  
 GEC 6AS7G well good luck even finding one of those let alone a pair. Those are the ones that'll set you back $500 for a pair.


----------



## punit

badas said:


> I know.
> 
> GEC 6AS7G, TS 5998, WE 421A are just too expensive now. Plus they could be noisy in my WA22. I wish there was a good easy to get 6080/6AS7G.


 
 I have rolled quite a lot of tubes in My WA22 when I had it (you can have a look at my profile for the tubes). I only had one noisy tube & that tube was noisy on another amp as well, so it was the tubes fault. No noise wilth  the rest of the tubes, maybe there is something going on with your WA22. Have you considered getting it checked ?


----------



## Jeb Listens

... a quick and easy test would be to send a sample of perhaps two or three of your cheaper noisy tubes to a fellow and trusted wa22 owner. I guess it Would cost you postage there and back. Bit of a hassle but may be the cheapest option and a good time to explore all avenues if your wa22 is still in warranty.


----------



## Mechans1

mikelap said:


>


 

 Thanks- I really appreciate the note but not sure how this analog person fits in the current context we find ourselves immersed in.  The irony is that I am old enough to be completely fluent in analog life.  E.G.  I was in my first or second year of college when a box arrived for one of my chemistry professors.  I asked what is that, he said" a really small new California computer co. called Apple".  _true story so help me!


----------



## abvolt

hdtv00 said:


> You can get 5998's for $100 easy you just have to keep looking. $500 for a pair is god damn ridiculous for 5998's. But some ****** in here wanted $350 for a pair. Don't get sucked in on people trying to profit. I bought one for $30 couple months ago. They're out there, just believe.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TungSol-5998-NOS-Vacuum-Tube-Tests-Excellent-421A-A1834-/181790413814?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2a538d93f6
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks I'll keep looking I've only ever found them by the pair on tube world now there lowest cost pair is 450.00 the 421a's are like 350. each I just won't pay that much for tubes..


----------



## SonicTrance

abvolt said:


> Thanks I'll keep looking I've only ever found them by the pair on tube world now there lowest cost pair is 450.00 the 421a's are like 350. each I just won't pay that much for tubes..


 
 You can always buy used 5998's on ebay. I've paid around $50-60 for all my 5998's.


----------



## gibosi

I have also purchased used 5998s on eBay fairly cheaply. And to reinforce what others have written, I usually buy singles, as so-called "pairs" tend to be more expensive than they are worth, and then do the matching myself, putting tubes with similar construction and close manufacturing dates together as pairs.


----------



## Mechans1

gibosi said:


> I have also purchased used 5998s on eBay fairly cheaply. And to reinforce what others have written, I usually buy singles, as so-called "pairs" tend to be more expensive than they are worth, and then do the matching myself, putting tubes with similar construction and close manufacturing dates together as pairs.


 

 There is no shame in that.   If the tubes aren't widely different that may cause one to be softer if the tube is heading down.  I have no shame I have, and still  put different brands of 5998s  in and the amp/700s.sounds.. great.  I heard that all tubes with domino plates were manufactured by Tung Sol anyway.  I have done it 6SN7s when I had a little EL-34 based amp, it was like doing an A/B test but with speaker.  I miss that amp it was so  easy to hear differences between  the 6SN7 . On rare occasions did the same with diligence with the 12A-7s it took.  I could hear the differences and settled on the 6SN7 W  I didn't have the British tubes have now,.  as for the 12-7  position   I became addicted to 5751s,but used others, also the 6SN7 wasn't find the one and be done.  I started down the rocky road to almost incurable disorder with a benign sounding word "tube roller" Best of luck and don't buy anything with flying saucer getter.


----------



## gibosi

The general consensus is every 5998 was manufactured by Chatham. Further, the 5998 and the 2399 are exactly the same. After Tung-Sol's purchase of Chatham in the late 1950s, the Chatham brand was slowly phased out, replaced by the Tung-Sol brand. So for sure, the brand printed on the base of a 5998/2399 does not matter when making pairs. All that matters is the internal construction and date of manufacture.


----------



## abvolt

very cool thanks for the helpful information I'll be looking for nice singles..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> very cool thanks for the helpful information I'll be looking for nice singles..


 

 I will as well. I will try not to bid against my fellow HP members.


----------



## ru4music

badas said:


> I will as well. I will try not to bid against my fellow HP members.


 

 Thanks, we appreciate that! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 A good match pair of 5998's testing close to NOS levels (+95%) should go for around $169 on Ebay.  A set went for that the other day with a buy-it-now.  At least tube prices seem to be coming back around to their normal high prices as opposed to the ludicrous pricing they were escalating to a year ago.


----------



## abvolt

I'll keep looking but I think that would be a good deal from the prices i'm seeing..


----------



## Badas

I think the best thing to do is none of us buy them unless they are at that price.
  
 If they don't sell as they are too expensive the price will come down.


----------



## abvolt

good idea i'll go for that Lol..


----------



## attmci

abvolt said:


> good idea i'll go for that Lol..


 

 Funny.
  
 But 5998 are not that expensive.
  
 Check this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCH-PAIR-RARE-1ST-VERSION-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-300A-300B-TUBE-SINGLE-CUP-GETTER-/301630393883?nma=true&si=mreGoahnV3sNWz6AMz2MlXRv4R8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## attmci

badas said:


> I think the best thing to do is none of us buy them unless they are at that price.
> 
> If they don't sell as they are too expensive the price will come down.


 

 If u don't bid, try here:
  
https://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html


----------



## abvolt

wow I guess it's a good thing I don't own a 300b amp


----------



## adeadcrab

attmci said:


> If u don't bid, try here:
> 
> https://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html


 
 Have you bought from this site before? Are the tubes NOS? Or new at least?


----------



## ru4music

abvolt said:


> I'll keep looking but I think that would be a good deal from the prices i'm seeing..


 
  
 Just for reference to support what I stated above:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-TUNG-SOL-5998-AUDIO-TUBES-6080-6AS7-7236-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-421A-2-/121680789642?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c54bd808a
  
 BTW, 6as7g tubes (the ones you're after; ST glass) are notorious for noise from low level hum(s).  However, they can sound sublime with the right music (e.g. female jazz etc.) and setup.  I have several NOS pairs and really love them except for some with slight hum issues (drives me nuts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).  The 5998s (relative to 6as7gs) are far more robust in all tube aspects: noise levels, and sound extension/ & musicality.  I don't know your setup and preferences but generally the 5998s are more than worth their investment.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> If u don't bid, try here:
> 
> https://www.vacuumtubes.net/RES%20Audio%20pages/5998.html


 
  
 I have bought from them. They are a very reputable and honest vendor. However, the last time I checked, they didn't have anymore 5998s, so you might want to contact them to be sure.


----------



## ru4music

attmci said:


> Funny.
> 
> But 5998 are not that expensive.
> 
> Check this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCH-PAIR-RARE-1ST-VERSION-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-300A-300B-TUBE-SINGLE-CUP-GETTER-/301630393883?nma=true&si=mreGoahnV3sNWz6AMz2MlXRv4R8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


 

 Wow!  Those WE 300b's are rare, but for the price I would buy a couple pairs of the Takatsuki 300b's and have plenty of coin to indulge in other areas (around $6k.)


----------



## attmci

To [u][color=rgb(0, 102, 204)]adeadcrab[/color][/u] 

 I purchased 5998s from them before.
  
 "NOS" doesn't mean anything. Unless it's in the original box.


----------



## mikoss

Considering that the 421A, 2399, and 5998 are the same tube, paying large amounts for the WE is really silly.


----------



## adeadcrab

attmci said:


> To [u][color=rgb(0, 102, 204)]adeadcrab[/color][/u]
> 
> I purchased 5998s from them before.
> 
> "NOS" doesn't mean anything. Unless it's in the original box.


 
 do they have dots in the flashing, making noises after a few days burn in? etc


----------



## gibosi

mikoss said:


> Considering that the 421A, 2399, and 5998 are the same tube, paying large amounts for the WE is really silly.


 
  
 This would be true of a Chatham/Tung-Sol 421A, but not the Western Electric 421A. While the WE421A has the same plates, there are a few construction differences, and to my mind, it is not clear if Chatham manufactured these per Western Electric's specifications, or if Western Electric purchased the plates from Chatham and manufactured their 421As in one of their own factories.
  
 I do not have a pair of WE421A and given their price, I suspect I never will. lol. And therefore, while I am very comfortable in stating that the Chatham/Tung-Sol 421A, 2399, 5998 are all the same tube, I can't say that the WE is the same as well....


----------



## JamieMcC

mikoss said:


> Considering that the 421A, 2399, and 5998 are the same tube, paying large amounts for the WE is really silly.


 

 They can all have the same domino plates but you will/can find differences in the internal construction between them. Top getter, bottom getter, duel getters differing mica  etc


----------



## hdtv00

Yea they aren't the same the 421A sounds better and is different despite what everyone keeps saying on here. They just don't own one. Oh but let me add I'm not sure they're worth paying the big bucks for one over the 5998. They aren't worth 3 times what 421A cost , or double.


----------



## mikoss

http://www.head-fi.org/t/506133/visual-evidence-tung-sol-5998-western-electric-421

I don't doubt that people have heard 421A's that do sound better, but I also don't think they all sound better. It's the same tube.


----------



## GrindingThud

Discussed at length and not the same tube. The specs are different, specifically, much higher transconductance.
http://www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/421A.pdf
http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/5/5998.pdf

Now, they may have been manufactured on the same line, and even in the same batches and cherry picked. But they are different by spec.


----------



## Mechans1

Thanks for the info, I had been using one lately that is  very nice indeed. 
 However being a tube roller and reading that some people like the Sylvania 6080 I had to try them.
 I must say they are impressive in the lower registers and give the impression of a full and rich overall sound.  I will see how they stack up against the Mullards I have.  These Sylvanias have a metal banded porcelain base and are totally gettering covered at the top of the tube with Halo getters.  They came in a  60's 70's fonted yellow box but this may be meaningless.  So far I am quite pleased.


----------



## attmci

adeadcrab said:


> do they have dots in the flashing, making noises after a few days burn in? etc


 

 Please feel free to give them a call.
  
 There are a lot of different 5998s, and none of mine has microphonic problem.
  
 The problem of the 5998 is loose glass. But it usually won't affect the sound quality.


----------



## JamieMcC

mikoss said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/506133/visual-evidence-tung-sol-5998-western-electric-421
> 
> I don't doubt that people have heard 421A's that do sound better, but I also don't think they all sound better. It's the same tube.


 
  
 I do wonder if the cathode plate coating is different on some my WE 421a's and early 5998s' they have a grainier powdered coating which has a matt finish compared to the smoother shiny black coating on some of my 5998's
  
 Note the different types of getter and mica plate coating examples. Personally I prefer the sound of the early 5998 clear tops to the WE421a. Only the 5998 clear tops (which are early production 5998's late 1950's I believe) and the WE421a have clear tops. Regular 5998's from the 60's onwards (those commonly available) be it the single top, bottom or duel getters have silver flashing on the tops, not clear. 
  
 Warning gratuitous tube porn ahead  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Some clear top 5998 and WE421a for comparison
  
 Different textured chemical coatings on plates?
  

  
 Different getters
  

  

  
 Different shapes top micas
  

  

  

  

  
 Common 5998 with top flashing
  

  
  
 I do prefer the GEC myself over the 421a and am still on the look out for some with MOV and MWT branding to add to a slowly growing collection. 
  
 Worth noting the GEC 6080 and the GEC 6as7g both have identical structured plates that came off of the same factory line but differing getters and getter locations while the 6080 has similar sonic traits the 6as7g version is without doubt sonically on a high plain.


----------



## hdtv00

Yea Mikoss every time someone says they are the same they don't own one and they always , always point to that thread lol. Which frankly if you read the entire thing clearly shows I think they are indeed different tubes.
  
 I don't agree with the last post saying they sound way different though. But it's ok, but to say they're the same is just plain wrong I think.


----------



## mikoss

My point is that they're all made by Tung Sol and they're all the same tube. The 421A's may sound better since they may be selected 5998's, but they certainly aren't a completely different tube. I'd equate it to Siemens stamping CCa on selected E88CC's.


----------



## hdtv00

I don't agree , they aren't selected 5998's. All that thread is you linked to is bunch of people who never had one and aren't willing to spend $200 for one saying "Oh well they're just the same as the 5998". Seriously and every person who actually has one saying they are different. I have four 5998's and a 421A sitting right here. I'm pretty sure I know.
  
 But anyway it's ok. One thing I will say on tubes. People stop going to these online stores. They are overpricing tubes so bad it's insane. You can get them on ebay just look for good sellers man. Someone in here asking $65 for an A frame Orange Globe they bought from tctubes.com...seriously $65. What. I have 4 of them or more at ALL under $20 each, and well under $20 too. These online stores from what I see pray on people. Don't drink the cool-aid people. It's not about this threads tube topic but still applies.


----------



## JamieMcC

mikoss said:


> My point is that they're all made by Tung Sol and they're all the same tube. The 421A's may sound better since they may be selected 5998's, but they certainly aren't a completely different tube. I'd equate it to Siemens stamping CCa on selected E88CC's.


 

 But it is plain to see they are not all the same tube there are some substantial differences in construction between them and that's just the clear top versions if you start to look at the 5998's that are not clear tops then there are four maybe five different versions again and thats not adding in variations like black or grey smooth or shiny  plates!
  
 I think at  least five or six differently constructed 5998 types have passed through my hands so far all dimple plate made by Tungsol. Some sound the same and some do not. The main difference I find is in the presentation which in only a few words might be described as some seem sweeter or more musical in presentation than others. I suspect the reputation the WE421a has garnered is somewhat base on one particular type of older tube and not ones of later production something which is a common occurrence. All of them are excellent top tier tubes anyhow.
  
 The WE421a do look funky with the yellow embossed lettering and those little lightening logo's, surely everybody knows yellow branded tubes sound better than anyother colour except that is may be orange


----------



## Jeb Listens

jamiemcc said:


> The WE421a do look funky with the yellow embossed lettering and those little lightening logo's, surely everybody knows yellow branded tubes sound better than anyother colour except that is may be orange :rolleyes:




If you take the little sticker from the GEC and put it on the WE, sonically you get the best of both worlds. Store in a Tung Sol Box for an added boost in soundstage!

In all seriousness though I'd love a 421a - whatever it's story, sound or mysterious origins it's a liitle unique slice of history - an artifact, if you like - very cool I think. For me tubes have always been about more than just the sound. I dare say I'd get a lot of pleasure from just looking at it. 

Those pics of your collection you posted earlier were very very nice Jamie - do you find any difference between the GECs with straight and curved brown base in your bottlehead Crack? 

Cheers,

Jeb


----------



## JamieMcC

jeb listens said:


> do you find any difference between the GECs with straight and curved brown base in your bottlehead Crack?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jeb


 
  
 I couldn't tell the difference between them Jeb.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Cool, thank you!


----------



## Skylab

I owned a pair of WE 421As that were 100% identical to some of the 5998's I had at that time. That said, I have had 5998's with a variety of different constructions as well...only the waffle style plates are consistent.

It seems HIGHLY unlikely to me that the 421A was actually manufactured by WE. WE certainly rebranded other makers tubes, especially toward the end, and the 421A was on the later side of tube production. So while the specs may be different, and while the 421A may sometimes have had different construction that some 5998's (although definitely not always, this I have seen with my own eyes), I am still pretty certain that the 421A was manufactured by Tung-Sol / Chatham, labeled for Western Electric. There are also IBM branded 5998's ( since it was a computer tube) which were certainly Tung-Sol/Chatham made. 

But there will never be any way to prove this, one way or another. Tube construction differences and similarities prove nothing.


----------



## abvolt

I just picked-up these chatham 6080's 1956 vintage at first listen their very nice, as good as my favorite mullard 6080's think I'd really like a few more pairs..


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> I do prefer the GEC myself over the 421a and am still on the look out for some with MOV and MWT branding to add to a slowly growing collection.
> 
> Worth noting the GEC 6080 and the GEC 6as7g both have identical structured plates that came off of the same factory line but differing getters and getter locations while the 6080 has similar sonic traits the 6as7g version is without doubt sonically on a high plain.


 
  
 Yep, JMcC...this (6AS7G) surely is one mighty tube - especially when driven by the Siemens C3g'S'!...could never go back to anything else in my Elise now...


----------



## adeadcrab

@Badas: Any updates re: Woo WA22?


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> @Badas: Any updates re: Woo WA22?


 

 Nope. Not really a high priority. I'm really liking the GE 6AS7G. It has burnt in well. Absolutely zero noise in the circuit as well. Mullards are very noisy. Russians are as well. 
  
 Makes me wonder. A lot have said the RCA 6AS7G is noisy. Then others have said they are not. They were in my WA22. So it could be another power tube that works in some circuits but not others.
  
 I'm going to buy 20 GE 6AS7G's (10 sets) and then I think I'm done with tube rolling. Have actually been thinking about unsubscribing as I have all the tubes I need. Plus I'm happy with how they all perform. 
  
 I said not a high priority as I have been having fun in a different area. I installed this last week and went totally old school. Vinyl and tubes. It is great.


----------



## Shaffer

How would you describe the sound of the GEs? How is the bass? Would you say that it's a relatively transparent and detailed tube? TIA


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> How would you describe the sound of the GEs? How is the bass? Would you say that it's a relatively transparent and detailed tube? TIA


 
  
 Bass was one concern when I rolled it in. Someone else said it was bloated and I started to really notice it was. Either it has settled down from new (my examples were most definitely NOS) or I am not noticing it anymore. It is a bass heavy tube. Probably not as clean as the very best but enjoyable. The rest of the signature is very neutral. Treble and detail extends without getting out of control. Midrange has a very slight bump. A side effect from being bass heavy. Probably the closest in my collection to the Mullard 6080. Certainly not as bright as the Sylvania 6080 (which I enjoy actually as it is very lush and silky sounding).
  
 It seems to gel well with my other tubes. Brimar 5Z4GY and Tung-Sol 6C8g roundplates.


----------



## abvolt

I would agree also the GE's are very sweet sounding so much so I had to get another pair although I feel the chatham's and the mullards are still among my favorites, I could easily live with the GE's long term.


----------



## adeadcrab

shaffer said:


> How would you describe the sound of the GEs? How is the bass? Would you say that it's a relatively transparent and detailed tube? TIA


 
 good 6AS7G sound for the price ($10-$15 per tube)


----------



## Liu Junyuan

adeadcrab said:


> good 6AS7G sound for the price ($10-$15 per tube)




I have to agree. adeadcrab pointed me toward these tubes, and I have been extremely pleased with their performance in the La Figaro 339.


----------



## Shaffer

Thank you all for the replies. I have a pair of GE 5-star 6080 and a pair of '62 vintage GE 6AS7GA - all NOS - and was wondering if the newer GAs from PE sounded better. I may have to get a pair and hear them for myself.


----------



## adeadcrab

liu junyuan said:


> I have to agree. @adeadcrab pointed me toward these tubes, and I have been extremely pleased with their performance in the La Figaro 339.


 
 Did you try with the 650? I rather them with beyer 880 or grados.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

adeadcrab said:


> Did you try with the 650? I rather them with beyer 880 or grados.




Yeah I have tried them with all I own and would say they are fairly versatile. Today. they have powered HD650, HE-500 and HD800. Very clean sound.


----------



## Mechans1

The GE 6080 was the first tube I used when I got my Extreme. It was a free gift from the manufacturer.  I was duly impressed with the sound but soon found a pair of RCA 6080 which I thought had better definition especially in the bass.  I haven't used them in a long while. I might pop them in to see if they are still impressive. 
 I have to say that I am lucky regarding noise in these tubes.  It has happened with only one tube.  Anybody care to guess? Yep a Western Electric 421A.  I am in no hurry to buy more of them, as really crappy tubes get passed around when they are as desirable as WE is.   I won't hurt the next guy just  because I got screwed, I am not selling it.   I have Chatams and Tung Sol 5998s so no need.


----------



## adeadcrab

do GE 6AS7G/A and 6080 sound similiar?


----------



## Shaffer

adeadcrab said:


> do GE 6AS7G/A and 6080 sound *similiar*?




Not really. The 5-star 6080 is more incisive and up front sounding with faster transients and a slightly more lean overall presentation. Medium to small soundfield, not unlike HD6xx. Dead quiet.

The '62 version of the 6AS7GA is considerably warmer overall, sweeter on top, not as fast, but more euphonic. The lows are not as well-defined and articulated. The transparency is about the same. Good sense of depth - much better than the 6080 - and a wider soundfield. The sound, overall, is more relaxed.

These observations were made with a Feliks Elise. I'm still trying things out on the DV336SE. It's barely broken in.


----------



## abvolt

The GE 6as7g's I enjoy much are the black base tubes not the GE metal base 6080's which I would describe as very ordinary..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> The GE 6as7g's I enjoy much are the black base tubes not the GE metal base 6080's which I would describe as very ordinary..


 

 ^
  
 Agreed.
  
 This is the version we are talking about.
  

  
 Be aware there is a bottled version GE 6AS7G that is made by RCA. It is basically a rebadged RCA.


----------



## Shaffer

abvolt said:


> The GE 6as7g's I enjoy much are the black base tubes not the GE metal base 6080's which I would describe as very ordinary..




FWIW, my '62 6AS7GA have black bases. They're not the RCA-made tubes pictured earlier. I don't think I've seen a 6080 that didn't have a metal base. This being said, lumping all GE 6080 into one basket seems a bit extreme, IME. Just compare a 5-star to a "regular" GE 6080.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> FWIW, my '62 6AS7GA have black bases. They're not the RCA-made tubes pictured earlier. I don't think I've seen a 6080 that didn't have a metal base. This being said, lumping all GE 6080 into one basket seems a bit extreme, IME. Just compare a 5-star to a "regular" GE 6080.


 

  
 I've seen this version labeled up 6080, 6AS7G and 5998. I'm guessing they are all the same. Just relabeled for different applications.


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> I've seen this version labeled up 6080, 6AS7G and 5998. I'm guessing they are all the same. Just relabeled for different applications.




It was labeled as a 6080 on the tube or in an ad? Clearly, it's not a 6080.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I have that same style of GE tube with the black base, from Parts Express. It sounds very good.


----------



## Shaffer

liu junyuan said:


> I have that same style of GE tube with the black base, from Parts Express. It sounds very good.




I'm thinking of trying those. They're definitely GAs.

 AFAIK, 6AS7G only applies to the coke bottle envelope, so this tube couldn't possibly qualify. A 5998 is solely a TS designation. The tube couldn't be that, either. I've been doing a pic search for 6080. Can't find a single one without a metal base.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> I'm thinking of trying those. They're definitely GAs.
> 
> AFAIK, 6AS7G only applies to the coke bottle envelope, so this tube couldn't possibly qualify. A 5998 is solely a TS designation. The tube couldn't be that, either. I've been doing a pic search for 6080. Can't find a single one without a metal base.


 

 You may be right and I'm likely wrong. I thought I had seen one before.
  
 A lot of miss information out there like this one. Selling as a 6080. However you can see 6A on the side of the glass.


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> A lot of miss information out there like this one. Selling as a 6080. However you can see 6A on the side of the glass.




Heh, it's not 6A on the side of the tube; it's GA. Take another look. I have a 27" monitor going. The box isn't original to the tube.

Edit: I agree. There's a lot of misinformation. Have a look at these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-TUBES-RCA-MATCHED-PAIR-/141714829840?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fedcb210

Russian tubes with RCA badly painted on the side. Then there was the guy selling a special "Fat Bottle" version of a RCA 6AS7G. After running a search, not only was he the only seller with Fat Bottles, but all of his RCA 6AS7Gs were advertised as special FAT Bottles.


----------



## abvolt

There are some nefarious people selling tubes no doubt I've had some bad experiences, I've bought 2 pair that were not what they were selling but what I got instead were rebranded  cheap Russian tubes..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> There are some nefarious people selling tubes no doubt I've had some bad experiences, I've bought 2 pair that were not what they were selling but what I got instead were rebranded  cheap Russian tubes..


 

 ^
  
 Nasty stuff. I purchased two matching Sylvania 6AS7G's. When they arrived one was taller than the other with different internal construction.


----------



## abvolt

Dirty crooks I know 4 tubes I'll never use..Lol Maybe I could sell them on ebay as genuine fakes..


----------



## DavidA

abvolt said:


> Dirty crooks I know 4 tubes I'll never use..Lol Maybe I could sell them on ebay as genuine fakes..


 
 Been lucky so far, haven't had a "genuine fake" yet


----------



## adeadcrab

good thing I like the 'fakes'.... own one pair of fakes and four identical Russian stamped backup pairs.. favourite for Sennheiser 650.

 Try the fakes for a day, you may enjoy the sound


----------



## Shaffer

You guys piqued my curiosity, so I just ordered a pair of the JAN GE 6AS7GA from PE. Give me a couple of weeks and I'll post some impressions of their sound.


----------



## abvolt

davida said:


> Been lucky so far, haven't had a "genuine fake" yet


 
  
 Lol.. this is funny stuff I could see someone going to all the trouble of making a fake expensive tubes but not the really cheat tubes i got..


----------



## Shaffer

Our discussion the other day about 6080 and 6AS7GA truly piqued my interest. Here's my theory (in a scientific sense of the word).



This tube was previously thought to have been manufactured by RCA, but it's a GE. Notice the "chimneys" above the top mica. That's the tell-all sign. How do I know that? I recently purchased pair of RCA 6080 (1980 vintage) that not only had the GE dots, but also the chimneys. I have 21 RCA tubes (6080 and 6AS7G) and the internal construction matches none of them. Too, there was no product designation/brand on the base of the 6080, which I think is an easy way to tell whether it was made by RCA or not.

Then, I looked at my Raytheon and GE 6AS7GA, both ca.1963, NOS. Both pairs have the GE chimneys and their internal construction looks just like the aforementioned GE-made "RCA" 6080. The GEs and the Raytheons sound essentially the same, but the 6080 adds a little more air and a lot more bass. Does not sound like a RCA 6080. At all.

I haven't received the NOS GE 6AS7GA from PE, yet, but the pics kinda look like it may have the chimneys, too. It'll be interesting to see. FWIW, my 5-star GE 6080 feature totally different internal construction, albeit somewhat similar to the GE 6080WC I've seen.

_[Please don't ask for pics. While I'd love to post some, I'm truly an awful photographer and it's a little embarrassing]_


----------



## adeadcrab

shaffer said:


> Our discussion the other day about 6080 and 6AS7GA truly piqued my interest. Here's my theory (in a scientific sense of the word).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Parts express 6AS7GA is identical to the above, except the lettering is green.


----------



## Shaffer

adeadcrab said:


> Parts express 6AS7GA is identical to the above, except the lettering is green.




Thanks! I hope they sound different.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

abvolt said:


> Dirty crooks I know 4 tubes I'll never use..Lol Maybe I could sell them on ebay as genuine fakes..




Very sorry to hear this. Can we call out those sellers here so others may avoid a similar predicament?


----------



## adeadcrab

ebay seller storblixten

 http://www.ebay.com.au/usr/storblixten

 listing image was http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/400795570705-0-0/s-l140.jpg

 Arrived as haltron branded russian 6H13C


----------



## Liu Junyuan

shaffer said:


> Our discussion the other day about 6080 and 6AS7GA truly piqued my interest. Here's my theory (in a scientific sense of the word).
> 
> 
> _[Please don't ask for pics. While I'd love to post some, I'm truly an awful photographer and it's a little embarrassing]_


 
 My 6AS7GA from PE appears to have the chimney. It looks like a small ring.
  
 Is this what you mean?
  

  
 Slightly closer shot:


----------



## Amish

Deleted by me...wrong thread!!


----------



## Shaffer

liu junyuan said:


> My 6AS7GA from PE appears to have the chimney. It looks like a small ring.
> 
> Is this what you mean?




That's the O-getter. The "chimneys" can be seen on top of the mica and they look like a pair of, well, chimneys ...or boxes. It's a nice looking tube all lit up. I should have you over to take some pics, so that folks could see for themselves. Clearly, your skill is not lacking, unlike mine.


----------



## adeadcrab

amish said:


> I wanted to come in here and mention one of my tubes that really stands out and is IMO one of the best tubes I've used with my amp.
> 
> I have quite a few hours on this tube now and swapping tubes back and forth I keep coming back to this 6SN7 out of the other 6SN7 tubes I own...and others.
> 
> ...


 


 There should be a 6SJ7/6SN7 thread so we can discuss various driver tubes!


----------



## SonicTrance

adeadcrab said:


> There should be a 6SJ7/6SN7 thread so we can discuss various driver tubes!




http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/


----------



## gibosi

amish said:


> This is a 1946 RCA 6SN7GT, Black plates, copper grids, O-getter.


 
  
 Are you sure it has an O-getter? I have not seen an O-getter on any tube manufactured in the 1940's. In my experience, this style of getter holder was not introduced until the late 1950's.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

shaffer said:


> That's the O-getter. The "chimneys" can be seen on top of the mica and they look like a pair of, well, chimneys ...or boxes. It's a nice looking tube all lit up. I should have you over to take some pics, so that folks could see for themselves. Clearly, your skill is not lacking, unlike mine.




I realized my mistake soon after. Sorry, I am really new to tubes. Thank you for the clarification.


----------



## Amish

adeadcrab said:


> There should be a 6SJ7/6SN7 thread so we can discuss various driver tubes!


 
  
 I posted in the wrong thread! ACK


sonictrance said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/


 
  
 That is the thread I meant to post in. lol


----------



## Amish

gibosi said:


> Are you sure it has an O-getter? I have not seen an O-getter on any tube manufactured in the 1940's. In my experience, this style of getter holder was not introduced until the late 1950's.


 
  
 Actually no I'm not and I can't see the getter as it is located at the bottom where the chrome/mirror is. I will have to do some checking. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## Shaffer

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/24/240117.html

Pics of O-getter and D-getter at the start of the thread.

_"The getter is 'flashed' onto the inside of the glass envelope after the vacuum is formed. Until the time it is flashed the getter material has to be held in a reservoir which can be any suitable shape, oval or 'O' or 'D' and probably others.

The reservoir ring is of course still there after the getter has been flashed but serves no further purpose."_



Another pic of an O-getter.

Edit: Perhaps the most correct way to call it would be an O-getter ring.


----------



## Mechans1

I'll be the first to admit my ignorance.
 I have been tube rolling for over a decade and only recently understood what a getter does.  After the activation or flash of the gettering it does nothing!  Remarkable for all the emphasis on it in describing the various iterations of a tube has in terms of this functionless element.


----------



## abvolt

I never knew that interesting, so the placement or even the shape of the getter makes no difference, some people really do put a lot of emphasis on this piece..


----------



## hdtv00

I've never really seen anyone saying a tube is better because of the getter. I usually just see it mentioned because it's a way to distinguish between one tube or another even of the same type/brand. I've also seen that getter referred to as a halo getter a ton.


----------



## gibosi

Getters are one of the easiest things to see so they are often used to distinguish one tube from another. They are especially useful in dating tubes. Halo or O-getters first began to show up around 1960, so while not 100% accurate, D-Getters and rectangular getters are typical for tubes manufactured before 1960 and O-getters after 1960.
  
 For example, it might be that a 6080 with rectangular getters is considered by some to be better than one with halo getters, but for sure, the getter itself has no impact on the sound. However, there were likely other revisions, not easily visible to the naked eye, occurring at about the same time as the switch over to the O-getter, that account for the sonic difference we hear. But since we can't see those small, but sonically significant changes, we use the getter shape to indicate which tube is the best. And of course, the same thing might be true regarding top getters and bottom getters.


----------



## abvolt

I now understand thanks for explaining that..


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Wonderful explanation on getters. Thank you.


----------



## abvolt

Well it's a sad day one of my beloved mullard 6080's has developed a noise now I see what others are talking about with there noisey tubes this is my first tube to get a hum and it's been getting a lot more noticeable over the past few days, switched to a pair of chatham 6080's which has a real sweet sound..


----------



## Mechans1

abvolt said:


> Well it's a sad day one of my beloved mullard 6080's has developed a noise now I see what others are talking about with there noisey tubes this is my first tube to get a hum and it's been getting a lot more noticeable over the past few days, switched to a pair of chatham 6080's which has a real sweet sound..


 

 I too am unfortunately getting an education on tube noise.  It seems that every 5998/421A I have has magically developed noise issues.  I was besides myself and really miserable  about this.  I hope the 6080s are sturdier and will hold up.  They sound good but I did prefer the Tung Sol / Chatham 5998s , they are more detailed, complex, layered and spatial. Sometimes I think people dump their marginal  tubes on the market.  I will not pass these tubes onto the next guy.  They will stay with me or the trash.
 Otherwise I will have  to use my little Bravo 2 with its one 12AU7.  I have not heard of a twin triode nine pin miniature develop noise , I can only hope I won't find it now.


----------



## Badas

mechans1 said:


> I too am unfortunately getting an education on tube noise.  It seems that every 5998/421A I have has magically developed noise issues.  I was besides myself and really miserable  about this.  I hope the 6080s are sturdier and will hold up.  They sound good but I did prefer the Tung Sol / Chatham 5998s , they are more detailed, complex, layered and spatial. Sometimes I think people dump their marginal  tubes on the market.  I will not pass these tubes onto the next guy.  They will stay with me or the trash.
> Otherwise I will have  to use my little Bravo 2 with its one 12AU7.  I have not heard of a twin triode nine pin miniature develop noise , I can only hope I won't find it now.


 

 Oh! Sorry to hear. There are buggers who dump their rubbish on the market. Part of the reason I don't want a 5998 now. At the price demanded I wouldn't want any problems.
  
 I tend to think the 6080 power tubes have the least effect on sound quality also. I tend to think Rectifiers and Drive tubes have more of an effect. So I'm not worried about getting the very best 6080/6AS7G.
  
 As a guide I have found the 6080 is more robust than the 6AS7G. The only 6080's that I found was noisy is the Mullard and I got some Sylvania's that were rebranded Brimar. The Sylvania/Brimar went quiet after burn in. The Mullards did not.
  
 What amp are you running?


----------



## Mechans1

badas said:


> Oh! Sorry to hear. There are buggers who dump their rubbish on the market. Part of the reason I don't want a 5998 now. At the price demanded I wouldn't want any problems.
> 
> I tend to think the 6080 power tubes have the least effect on sound quality also. I tend to think Rectifiers and Drive tubes have more of an effect. So I'm not worried about getting the very best 6080/6AS7G.
> 
> ...


 

 I am using a SinglePower Extreme which uses a 6SN7 input phase splitter? not sure what else it does, and 6080 power tubes.  Unlike you I find the power tubes make a very big difference in the sound.  I have a zillion 6SN7s and have been using various Sylvania Ws or Brimar CV 1988s, They are both good, but occasionally I will roll in something else.
 I had a few  5998s and at least one WE 421A which were quiet until this last weekend, when all of them decided to get noisy.  I don't think my amp makes quiet tubes noisy.    My 6080s and 6AS7Gs are still quiet.  I don't know if I should pursue more of them insisting that they be quiet or I will return them. I really think people pass around bad tubes.  I won't, but will not buy more without a quiet tube guarantee.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Interesting amp. I just looked it up.
  
 I put my tubes like this:
  
 Drive tubes are 45% of the sound. Maybe even 50%.
 Rectifier is 40% of the sound.
 Power tubes are 15% of the sound.
  
 So I really don't care what power tubes I run (within reason). I actually didn't hear any difference at all with power tubes until I ran the Tung-Sol roundplate Drivers. That is a revealing tube.


----------



## abvolt

Your right about tubes getting noisey fast, I've just had a very nice pair of my jan salvania 6SN7WGT's go so noisey just over night they no longer usable one is much worse then the other too bad but it does happen sucks when its  more pricey tubes..


----------



## MIKELAP

abvolt said:


> Your right about tubes getting noisey fast, I've just had a very nice pair of my jan salvania 6SN7WGT's go so noisey just over night they no longer usable one is much worse then the other too bad but it does happen sucks when its  more pricey tubes..


 
 Are your tubes noisy when you touch them or the amp  or when you listen to them


----------



## abvolt

It was out of the blue one of my jan salvania 6SN7WGT's  got soo noisey I had to stop listening to my amp they have always been very quiet, every tube that I own now with the exception of one mullard 6080 and now 2 salvania's are very quiet tubes knock- on- wood, but I know that lucky streak won't last..Lol


----------



## Mechans1

abvolt said:


> Your right about tubes getting noisey fast, I've just had a very nice pair of my jan salvania 6SN7WGT's go so noisey just over night they no longer usable one is much worse then the other too bad but it does happen sucks when its  more pricey tubes..


 

 I am a 6SN7 addict and hoarder.  I have had many microphonic N7s but none that are noisy untouched etc.  If you have some microphonic tubes don't worry unless they create a feedback loop.. I would get Sylvania 6SN7WGTs again if that is the sound you liked and they are a good choice in my book.  Be aware though that the earliest namely the GTs are the most prone to be microphonic.  That said I still seek them and their ilk.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Hi rollers. 
  
 I was thinking about giving the Sylvania 6080 a go -  I noticed there are some labelled Sylvania 6080 and there's also a JAN, Military 6080WC or WB variants -  is there any difference between them all or one in particular to look out for?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Puzzles

jeb listens said:


> Hi rollers.
> 
> I was thinking about giving the Sylvania 6080 a go -  I noticed there are some labelled Sylvania 6080 and there's also a JAN, Military 6080WC or WB variants -  is there any difference between them all or one in particular to look out for?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 Generally, the older the tube, the better. The WA-standard was set up in the 50's (?), which was superseded by the WB standard in the early 60's, which was in turn replaced by the WC-standard in the late 60's. I personally would pick WA over WB-tubes and avoid the WC-stuff because these come from the 70's or 80's. Many tubes from that age sound worse than their earlier counterparts. I have the 6080WA and 6080WB and I thought that the WB-tubes sounded less transparent. But I didn't use them for long, it could very well be that I was biased by my expectations.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Thanks Puzzles - nice explanation, I appreciate your thoughts.  I'll keep it all in mind while I'm looking for tubes.


----------



## Mechans1

I can tell you that the 6080 Sylvania with no affixes, are very good tubes indeed.  I think they are well worth seeking out, with the usual provisos. Try to get them with substantial/full gettering , I see so many really used up tubes these days it's frightening. I can also tell you prices are all over the map, I forget the exact amount I paid but they were somewhat more expensive than some of the other offerings.
 Good Luck hunting them down.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Thanks Mechans!  Most of what I'm seeing are the JAN WC or WB variants - I have seen one or two that are just plain Sylvania 6080 labelled, though I wouldn't know if some of these were rebranded tubes.   eBay is a bit of lottery.... as ever!
  
 Thanks again


----------



## abvolt

jeb listens said:


> Thanks Mechans!  Most of what I'm seeing are the JAN WC or WB variants - I have seen one or two that are just plain Sylvania 6080 labelled, though I wouldn't know if some of these were rebranded tubes.   eBay is a bit of lottery.... as ever!
> 
> Thanks again


 
  
 Hello jeb you might also want to consider either the tung sol or the chatham 6080's really nice and of course mullard makes one that's great sounding too..


----------



## Jeb Listens

abvolt said:


> Hello jeb you might also want to consider either the tung sol or the chatham 6080's really nice and of course mullard makes one that's great sounding too..


 

 Thanks abvolt! I will add those to the search list.  One things for sure these 6080/6as7gs are pretty spectacular looking compared to the 12AU7s.  I'm using a Bottlehead Crack and it's really nice (for my wallet) only having to find one tube instead of pairs!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Mechans1

abvolt said:


> Hello jeb you might also want to consider either the tung sol or the chatham 6080's really nice and of course mullard makes one that's great sounding too..


 

 Do you  mean the 5998s or are there true 6080s made by Tung Sol?  I know that the Mullards are 6080s I own them and they are very good indeed.   I like the Mullards as much as, or more than, anything else I have that can use including the vaunted Western Electric 421A.  I  would like to hear the GEC 6080s but I never see them for sale.   Also didn't Bendix make a compatible tube, they have their own numbering system, or so it seems.


----------



## abvolt

mechans1 said:


> Do you  mean the 5998s or are there true 6080s made by Tung Sol?  I know that the Mullards are 6080s I own them and they are very good indeed.   I like the Mullards as much as, or more than, anything else I have that can use including the vaunted Western Electric 421A.  I  would like to hear the GEC 6080s but I never see them for sale.   Also didn't Bendix make a compatible tube, they have their own numbering system, or so it seems.


 
  
 Yes I have 2 pairs each of tung sol's & chatham 6080's I really enjoy them they have a very clean sound along with the mullards these are my favorite 6080's well worth a try..


----------



## bocosb

Do you have any recommendation for a good european tube store where i can find 6080/6as7g?


----------



## abvolt

I use Langrex Tubes an excellent source for my favorite mullards & others..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I use Langrex Tubes an excellent source for my favorite mullards & others..


 

 Yes. Langrex is the best in Europe.


----------



## adeadcrab

abvolt said:


> I use Langrex Tubes an excellent source for my favorite mullards & others..


 
 Looks like there are two GEC 6080 up on that site... someone get them and post a review here!


----------



## bocosb

abvolt said:


> I use Langrex Tubes an excellent source for my favorite mullards & others..


 
 Thx, i was looking for a Mullard 6080 for my BHC.. are there more versions of this tube?


----------



## pytter

badas said:


> Yes. Langrex is the best in Europe.


 

 I can second that - I have found Langrex excellent to deal with and a great source of tubes - especially Mullard


----------



## pytter

bocosb said:


> Thx, i was looking for a Mullard 6080 for my BHC.. are there more versions of this tube?


 

 Indeed there are!  I think this probably has already been extensively covered in this thread and others but the 6080 numbering is US, anything starting with CV is British Military (CV2984 is the 6080 equivalent and the typically used for Mullard) and the continental European labeling is ECC230.  Pretty much the same tube and as far as I know, entirely interchangeable with 6AS7G and 6AS7GA variants. 
  
 Also don't forget that there are more brands than there were producers - especially towards the end of tube manufacture so many tubes that are branded were not always made by that company.  So some Tung Sol were not made my Tung Sol for example. The parent company may also own more than one brand and manufacture tubes under a number of labels. So Mullard and Philips were made by the same company (post 1920's anyway).   You can google and get the gist of who made what.
  
 Some take it a step further and will swear that a Dutch made Philips tube is much better than a British or a US made one for example - but arguing the merits of one factory over another is a little too nerdy for me!


----------



## abvolt

I picked these up the other day a pair of mid 1960's tung sol 6as7g's what a nice sounding tube, there more forward in the mids & smooth sounding then most of my other 6as7g's. I have some really nice mid 1940's rca's that sound excellent but so far I think these tung sol's might become my new favorite 6as7g..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I picked these up the other day a pair of mid 1960's tung sol 6as7g's what a nice sounding tube, there more forward in the mids & smooth sounding then most of my other 6as7g's. I have some really nice mid 1940's rca's that sound excellent but so far I think these tung sol's might become my new favorite 6as7g..


 
  
 Yes. I have two pairs of those and one set labelled Chatham. They are the best sounding 6AS7G. Dynamic. Just a tad dry. Only a little.
  
 They can be labeled 6520 also. I think they are the same. Certainly look the same inside.
  
 Unfortunately these tubes are getting hard to find.


----------



## abvolt

I agree they are hard to find I've been looking for a while and just stumbled upon them, The 6520's I've seen are most of the time way over priced I'd sure like another pair of these for sure. Ever tried a pair of raytheon 6as7g's wonder if there any good.. I haven't got the best sound from other raytheon's I own but got no 6as7g's in that brand..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I agree they are hard to find I've been looking for a while and just stumbled upon them, The 6520's I've seen are most of the time way over priced I'd sure like another pair of these for sure. Ever tried a pair of raytheon 6as7g's wonder if there any good.. I haven't got the best sound from other raytheon's I own but got no 6as7g's in that brand..


 

 I have two pairs of Raytheon 6AS7G. They are a RCA re-brand. So they sound like the RCA.


----------



## abvolt

cool thanks..


----------



## HeatFan12

badas said:


> I have two pairs of Raytheon 6AS7G. They are a RCA re-brand. So they sound like the RCA.


 
  
  
 Hey Badas,
  
 Can you post a pic of the Raytheon 6AS7G?  I have several Raytheon 6080WBs, but would like to check out the 6AS7G
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Badas

heatfan12 said:


> Hey Badas,
> 
> Can you post a pic of the Raytheon 6AS7G?  I have several Raytheon 6080WBs, but would like to check out the 6AS7G
> 
> Thanks!




I will dig them out. Give me half an hour. I have chrome top and clear glass. I will photo both.


----------



## HeatFan12

badas said:


> I will dig them out. Give me half an hour. I have chrome top and clear glass. I will photo both.


 
  
  
 Outstanding!  Thanks very much.
  
 Sorry if I missed it, but what amp do you use these bad boys in?
  
 Thanks again


----------



## Badas

heatfan12 said:


> Outstanding!  Thanks very much.
> 
> Sorry if I missed it, but what amp do you use these bad boys in?
> 
> Thanks again




Here you. I hope this is okay. It as clear as the iPad will take pics. Clear top right way up. Chrome upside down. They are basically RCA's. You can tell by the bottom flap.



I'm using a Woo WA22. I'm not using this tube. I just have them for future reference. I have a number of different types. This is my tube arrangement as of now.



GE 6AS7G (power), Tung-Sol round plates 6C8G (driver), Brimar 5Z4GY (rectifier)


----------



## HeatFan12

Awesome Badas,
  
 Looking great!!!  Thanks very much!!
  
 I'm sure that setup with the Audeze sounds great.  I have a maxxed WA2 purchased a while back and can't use 6080 tubes due to the fit.  They don't seat due to the opening.  I do have various 6AS7Gs on hand so was curious about those Raytheons.
  
 I see your Classic is one of your sources.  I have been on a DAP craze lately and plugging various ones into my tube amps.
  
 Great stuff!!!
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## Badas

heatfan12 said:


> Awesome Badas,
> 
> Looking great!!!  Thanks very much!!
> 
> ...




Here is my whole system. A real mix of analog and digital.

I rip a lot of vinyl to digital as well.


----------



## HeatFan12

Indeed, a real mix of analog and digital!
  
 That is one awesome station.  Total package right there.  CD, SACD, DVD-A, Vinyl, iPod.
  
 Outstanding!!!!!


----------



## Badas

heatfan12 said:


> Awesome Badas,
> 
> Looking great!!!  Thanks very much!!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can you show me your maxxed out WA2? I'm curious.


----------



## Shaffer

heatfan12 said:


> Indeed, a real mix of analog and digital!
> 
> That is one awesome station.  Total package right there.  CD, SACD, DVD-A, Vinyl, iPod.
> 
> Outstanding!!!!!





FWIW, the HP equipment is a part of my main system, too, albeit composed with different gear and goal in mind. An ipod is not included. 

[Rant] That's fairly common, except on this forum. I real stereo, I mean. Our audio systems don't sit on desks. That also applies to the greater world of audio. Who would have thought such a thing could happen; sitting behind a desk to play music, the aural equivalent of a straitjacket. How does that even make sense? 

As I see it, this forum is populated to very young people who know virtually nothing about audio, but who feel like they simply must express their ignorance ad nauseum, leading folk astray. This isn't to that all forum participants are totally clueless, confused, and lack the capacity for critical thinking. They're just the most vocal. Look at the Recommendations forum. It's a handful of people who've never even seen much of they discuss and that's the noob's introduction to our board. Is it any wonder that so few stay and those that do seem to be drawn by the combative atmosphere? Don't get me started on the forum staff. [/Rant]

Edit: typo


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> FWIW, the HP equipment is a part of my main system, too, albeit composed with different gear and goal in mind. An ipod is not included.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 





 Nice rant. I like it.
  
 I agree. Not many are experimental. They buy a piece of gear and they shout it is the best ever. They won't try for better. They are invested in it. I have a lot of nice gear. However I damn well know there is better.
  
 I recently got slammed for saying something about a piece of equipment I own (I said it wasn't great). I got banned from a thread and continuously slammed. I damn well nearly gave up and left also. I just hung in there. It's a pity. You see many members that contribute greatly then leave. The knowledge goes.
  
 End of my rant.
  
 We have to watch it. We will likely be removed.


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> Nice rant. I like it.
> 
> I agree. Not many are experimental. They buy a piece of gear and they shout it is the best ever. They won't try for better. They are invested in it. I have a lot of nice gear. However I damn well know there is better.
> 
> ...




I don't doubt it at all. It's the first sign of personal insecurity and the staff examples it at every interaction. Let's not forget the commercial motive - advertising dollars. The more hits they get, the more they can charge. Clearly, money is no match for integrity and fairness. It's the single biggest joke of an "audio" forum I've seen in 20 years on similar boards. The worst by far! Who's to blame? The staff. 

Now, excuse me while I go and pull out what's left of my hair.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> I don't doubt it at all. *It's the first sign of personal insecurity and the staff examples it at every interaction. Let's not forget the commercial motive - advertising dollars. The more hits they get, the more they can charge. Clearly, money is no match for integrity and fairness. It's the single biggest joke of an "audio" forum I've seen in 20 years on similar boards.* The worst by far! Who's to blame? The staff.
> 
> Now, excuse me while I go and pull out what's left of my hair.


 
  
 Another member and myself are having the same conversation. We have resorted to email as our PM's were getting read. I know. I know.
  
 It is a real shame. There are a lot of members getting annoyed. 
  
 I'm already on the naughty boy list and getting closely monitored so I better tread carefully.


----------



## TonyNewman




----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> Another member and myself are having the same conversation. We have resorted to email as our PM's were getting read. I know. I know.




On a forum like this, it's to be expected. Not the first time, IME. What do all these forums share? A similarly insecure staff. Taking this a step further, an Admin on another forum - we became friends - will only talk to me through FB. Yes, staff reads PMs.



> It is a real shame. There are a lot of members getting annoyed.




Of course! It's a Herculean invasion of privacy. The staff still does it. They want respect. For what? Spying, not participating in discussions and not being a part of this community, hanging out on the staff board making fun of the posters and the hypocritically evoking some rule that happens fits their purpose.



> I'm already on the naughty boy list and getting closely monitored so I better tread carefully.




They play games. An example: 3 days in a row two trolls were insulting me, and not clandestinely. My crime? I knew more about audio. Was anything done? Of course not. The staff is not impartial; they have an agenda that's not necessarily congruent with the concept of integrity. 

Ever seen CanJam pics? There's virtually no one there. The staff needs to get a grip.


----------



## Badas

This site will get a 6 Moons reputation. Where everything was made by a audio god.
  
 When members buy that gear and discover it is not they won't believe what is written on the site and leave.
  
 It may become a joke.


----------



## 2359glenn

badas said:


> This site will get a 6 Moons reputation. Where everything was made by a audio god.
> 
> When members buy that gear and discover it is not they won't believe what is written on the site and leave.
> 
> It may become a joke.


 

 I go on 6 Moons for a laugh that is what some of the miracle stuff is


----------



## TonyNewman

2359glenn said:


> I go on 6 Moons for a laugh that is what some of the miracle stuff is


 
  
 I always find it amusing to read about audio gear that induces multiple orgasms in the user, and that is _*before *_you even switch it on


----------



## Shaffer

2359glenn said:


> I go on 6 Moons for a laugh that is what some of the miracle stuff is




6 Moons is a joke. It's a vehicle for a man who changed his name to sound more exotic with text impossible to comprehend.


----------



## Badas

tonynewman said:


> I always find it amusing to read about audio gear that induces multiple *orgasms* in the user, and that is _before _you even switch it on


 
  
 Not that word before I have my lunch. Come on. That was too much. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Your right tho. That guy has orgasms as he walks. Lucky guy.


----------



## HeatFan12

shaffer said:


> An example: 3 days in a row two trolls were insulting me, and not clandestinely. My crime? I knew more about audio. Was anything done? Of course not. The staff is not impartial; they have an agenda that's not necessarily congruent with the concept of integrity.


 
  
 Great rant!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I hear ya Shaffer.  I was reading that thread.  Crazy!!
  
   
  
  
 Quote:


badas said:


> Can you show me your maxxed out WA2? I'm curious.


 
  
 Sure!
  
  
 When I purchased it Jack was offering an upgrade package on internals, so I jumped on it.  Don't know if he offers it anymore.  It's funny, I just found an email from Jack in reference to the WA22.  The WA22 came out about a year after I purchased my WA2 and I was really interested but never got around to order one.
  
 Here is the lady through the years....lol:  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  

  
  
  

  
  
  

  
  
  

  
  
  

  
  
 This is where she sits now ^^^.  Gonna bring her into the office for a little DAP love and some rollin'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers!


----------



## abvolt

looks really good..


----------



## adeadcrab

heatfan12 said:


> This is where she sits now ^^^.  Gonna bring her into the office for a little DAP love and some rollin'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Those are the GE 6AS7GA right? How do you think they compare to more commonly used RCA, Raytheon, Tung Sol etc 6AS7G? Is imaging, soundstage more or less the same?


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> Those are the GE 6AS7GA right? How do you think they compare to more commonly used RCA, Raytheon, Tung Sol etc 6AS7G? Is imaging, soundstage more or less the same?


 
  
 GE is less veiled. A lot clearer. I like the GE as it is dynamic. Treats treble with respect but never sounds dry. Mullards are like that also. Mullards are a tiny bit nicer.
  
 RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon (I also have a RCA rebranded Tung-Sol) 6AS7G's are not dynamic. Sound like they are treble rolled so it sounds veiled in my opinion. It will be a useful to tame brighter tubes tho.
  

HeatFan12 [color=#000000]your gear looks killer great. [/color]


----------



## adeadcrab

I guess I will not bother with any other 6AS7. I am surprised as the GE I bought from parts express were 1/4 the price of RCA. Thanks for the reply!


----------



## Shaffer

I have 3 sets of GAs: NOS Raytheon, NOS GE ('62), and the GE sold at PE. Actually, all were made by GE. In my Feliks Elise, I prefer 6AS7G (Chatham, Svetlana) and 6080 (JAN and consumer RCA, Raytheon, GE 5-star, JAN WA Chatham). My Darkvoice likes the GAs a bit more, but really comes alive with the aforementioned tubes. Aside from that, it also likes RCA 6AS7G black plates and JAN 6080WA. 7N7 drivers all around. YMMV

BTW, those who find the GAs from PE too bass-heavy, try a Baldwin/Ratheon driver. Very clear and detailed, and a bit lean in the low-end.


----------



## HeatFan12

abvolt said:


> looks really good..


 
  
 Thanks!!!
  
  
  


adeadcrab said:


> Those are the GE 6AS7GA right? How do you think they compare to more commonly used RCA, Raytheon, Tung Sol etc 6AS7G? Is imaging, soundstage more or less the same?


 
  
  
 Yes.  Badas summed it up perfectly.  Clarity is great.  They don't get a lotta love around here though compared to the others.  Some say they are thin-sounding.
  
  
  


badas said:


> GE is less veiled. A lot clearer. I like the GE as it is dynamic. Treats treble with respect but never sounds dry. Mullards are like that also. Mullards are a tiny bit nicer.
> 
> RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon (I also have a RCA rebranded Tung-Sol) 6AS7G's are not dynamic. Sound like they are treble rolled so it sounds veiled in my opinion. It will be a useful to tame brighter tubes tho.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks!!!
  
  
  


shaffer said:


> I have 3 sets of GAs: NOS Raytheon, NOS GE ('62), and the GE sold at PE. Actually, all were made by GE. In my Feliks Elise, I prefer 6AS7G (Chatham, Svetlana) and 6080 (JAN and consumer RCA, Raytheon, GE 5-star, JAN WA Chatham). My Darkvoice likes the GAs a bit more, but really comes alive with the aforementioned tubes. Aside from that, it also likes RCA 6AS7G black plates and JAN 6080WA. 7N7 drivers all around. YMMV
> 
> BTW, those who find the GAs from PE too bass-heavy, try a Baldwin/Ratheon driver. Very clear and detailed, and a bit lean in the low-end.


 
  
  
 I throw in a Svet 6H13C every now and then.  Fun sounding all around tube.  I love the 7N7s as well as the 7AF7s.  Good stuff Shaffer!!!
  
  
 This thread has motivated me to move the WA2 tonight for a little rollin' with the DX50- TS5998 --> Tesla ECC88 --> Tungsram EZ80.
  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## abvolt

I just received these today a pair of tung sol 6080's what I noticed  was there are little differences in appearances of my chatham & tung sol 6080's, these have the shortest glass envelope of all them, the pair of 6080's in the center are my tallest pair followed by the USN-Chatham 6080's then the ones I just got. They all have a little difference in their sound all are great of course but these short glass 6080's sound extremely nice, so far these might just be on par with my favorite 6080's the mullards..


----------



## Shaffer

abvolt said:


> I just received these today a pair of tung sol 6080's what I noticed  was there are little differences in appearances of my chatham & tung sol 6080's,* these have the shortest glass envelope of all them*, the pair of 6080's in the center are my tallest pair followed by the USN-Chatham 6080's then the ones I just got. They all have a little difference in their sound all are great of course but these short glass 6080's sound extremely nice, so far these might just be on par with my favorite 6080's the mullards..




Interesting you say that. I have a number of JAN RCA 6080 from '48-'52 that also feature a similarly short envelope, even compared to other JAN tubes of the era. They're the shortest 6080 I have and definitely have a sound of their own.


----------



## gibosi

abvolt said:


> I just received these today a pair of tung sol 6080's what I noticed  was there are little differences in appearances of my chatham & tung sol 6080's, these have the shortest glass envelope of all them, the pair of 6080's in the center are my tallest pair followed by the USN-Chatham 6080's then the ones I just got. They all have a little difference in their sound all are great of course but these short glass 6080's sound extremely nice, so far these might just be on par with my favorite 6080's the mullards..


 
  
 I am inclined to think that the middle tube was not manufactured by Chatham/Tung-Sol. The picture is a little dark, but I am not seeing the metal bracing on the mica spacers typical of these tubes, so I think it may well be a rebrand.The right and left tubes both have metal bracing, so they are likely genuine Chatham/Tung-Sol.
  
 It has been my experience, considering tubes manufactured in the same factory, older tubes are often taller and later ones are smaller. In this case, I would guess the Chatham on the left was probably manufactured in the 1950's and the Tung-Sol on the right in the 1960's.


----------



## abvolt

That's true the middle set of tung sol's don't have any metal bracing like all of my other tung sol's & chatham's they do sound great but not like the small glass ones really good info* gibosi* thanks..


----------



## jsa_ind

Hi All,
 Just wanted to know if I could replace two 6AS7's with two 6SN7's in my Woo Audio WA2?
 I see that the 6AS7 has a 2.5A heater and 13W rating. The 6SN7 has a 5W rating.
 Rest seems identical.
 Thanks,
 jsa_ind


----------



## Skylab

NO. Not even close. 6AS7G and 6SN7 are both 6.3 V octal base dual triodes, but that's the end of the similarities. 6AS7 is 2.5 A of heater current, a plate current of 125 am, a Mu of 2, and a transconductance of 7000. The 6SN7 has a heater current of 0.6, a plate current of 10ma, a mu of 20, and a transconductance of 2600. They are not even close. It probably won't blow up, but it won't work well, either, and at a bare minimum would sound really, really anemic.


----------



## Shaffer

skylab said:


> NO. Not even close. 6AS7G and 6SN7 are both 6.3 V octal base dual triodes, but that's the end of the similarities. 6AS7 is 2.5 A of heater current, a plate current of 125 am, a Mu of 2, and a transconductance of 7000. The 6SN7 has a heater current of 0.6, a plate current of 10ma, a mu of 20, and a transconductance of 2600. They are not even close. It probably won't blow up, but it won't work well, either,* and at a bare minimum would sound really, really anemic.*




I actually tried that in my Elise just for yucks. The result was as you described.

OTOH, a 6BL7 sounds phenomenal in the same amp. The tube has very little power and doesn't love low-z HPs, so I use it late at night with sensitive, easy to drive cans - HD600. Its sound quality, however, is better than any of my 6AS7s, including JAN Chathams.


----------



## Skylab

Well the 6BL7 is closer to a 6AS7 than a 6SN7 is, so I could see that. I too have often thought the 6BL7 was a good sounding tube in an amp that was designed to use them.


----------



## jsa_ind

Thank you Sir!


----------



## Badas

What about a 6336???? I've seen talk about that being a close tube.
  
 Not that I've had the guts to buy and try.


----------



## Skylab

Nope. Unless your amp has setting for a 6336, or specifically says it has the power transformer headroom, it's way too much of a current hog to be a safe direct sub for a 6AS7G.


----------



## adeadcrab

^ what about transformerless (OTL) amps?


----------



## Skylab

You're confusing output transformers and power transformers. The heater current tubes need is supplied by the power transformer. Every single tube amp has one of these. The total heater current of all tubes cannot exceed the current that a power transformer can supply (to slightly oversimplify).


----------



## Badas

skylab said:


> Nope. Unless your amp has setting for a 6336, or specifically says it has the power transformer headroom, it's way too much of a current hog to be a safe direct sub for a 6AS7G.


 

 Thanks mate.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> What about a 6336???? I've seen talk about that being a close tube.
> 
> Not that I've had the guts to buy and try.


 
 The amp that I am getting from Glenn, can use the 6336.
  
 Supposedly it works well with low impedance cans.....I will be trying them with my Grados.


----------



## punit

whirlwind said:


> The amp that I am getting from Glenn, can use the 6336.
> 
> Supposedly it works well with low impedance cans.....I will be trying them with my Grados.


 
 It does work well, I tried the  PS1000 & TH 900 on it with 6336 + CBS 5AW4. Which is a bonus as normally OTL amps do not work well with low impd HP's. I really love the TH 900 on it, has a wide sound stage.


----------



## whirlwind

punit said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > The amp that I am getting from Glenn, can use the 6336.
> ...


 
 That sounds wonderful, punit.....I can not wait to try these tubes with my Grados.
  
 Yeah, normally OTL amps are not the best match with Grado cans, this is so great to hear....thank you.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Do you have Cetron tubes ?


----------



## punit

I have the Chatham 6336.


----------



## gibosi

As I recall, Glenn recommended against the straight 6336 in favor of the 6336A or 6336B. Evidently, the 6336 are prone to arcing.
  
 And for those of you who aren't familiar with this tube, it draws 5.0A of heater current, whereas the 6080 draws 2.5A, and thus, some have described the 6336 as equivalent to two 6080.


----------



## gibosi

whirlwind said:


> Yeah, normally OTL amps are not the best match with Grado cans, this is so great to hear....thank you.


 
  
 On the subject of using low-Z cans in an OTL, does anyone have experience with impedance / resistor adapters? For example, 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/300453295797
  
 Evidently, these allow one to add a fixed resistor in line with the headphone, thus increasing the impedance the OTL "sees". So if one has a 32 ohm can, one could add 120 ohms to bring the impedance up to 152 ohms, a much easier load for the OTL to drive.
  
 Do these work? Are there any downsides to using these?


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> On the subject of using low-Z cans in an OTL, does anyone have experience with impedance / resistor adapters? For example,
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300453295797
> 
> ...


 
 I used those with low Z cans back when I had the LD MK4. I tried both the 150 ohm and 300 ohm versions and they both worked great. My goal was to get rid of the background noise from the C3GS tubes and it worked. No need for them any longer with the LD MK6 though.


----------



## gibosi

Thanks for the feedback. I think I might try one of these adapters.


----------



## Mechans1

I  seem to recall through my clouded mind "autoformers" being useful on OTL speaker amps.  
 Yes there is a product made by Spelts that increases resistance/ load that amp will 'see' just for the purpose we are discussing.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> As I recall, Glenn recommended against the straight 6336 in favor of the 6336A or 6336B. Evidently, the 6336 are prone to arcing.
> 
> *And for those of you who aren't familiar with this tube, it draws 5.0A of heater current, whereas the 6080 draws 2.5A, and thus, some have described the 6336 as equivalent to two 6080.*


 

 So can I use on the Woo WA22????


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> As I recall, Glenn recommended against the straight 6336 in favor of the 6336A or 6336B. Evidently, the 6336 are prone to arcing.
> 
> And for those of you who aren't familiar with this tube, it draws 5.0A of heater current, whereas the 6080 draws 2.5A, and thus, some have described the 6336 as equivalent to two 6080.


 
 I did not know this, when I took notes when going thru the Glenn thread....I made a note to not use chatham tubes, to try to find cetron tubes.....I must have missed this info....thanks gibosi.
  
 I did write down that they can be used in 6AS7 mode or 5998 mode


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> So can I use on the Woo WA22????


 
  
 No. The 6336 draws twice as much heater current as the 6080/6AS7. Put very simply, your WA22 has a power transformer that can supply a total of 5amps for two 6080 plus 2amps for two 6SN7/ECC32 for a total of about 7 amps. Running a pair of 6336 requires 10amps plus 2amps for a total of about 12amps.
  
 One pair of 6336 is equivalent to running *four 6080 in your WA22!* And I am 99.99% sure that your WA22 cannot deliver 12amps of heater current.
  
 As an aside, the Glenn OTL is one of the very few OTLs that can use pair of 6336.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> No. The 6336 draws twice as much heater current as the 6080/6AS7. Put very simply, your WA22 has a power transformer that can supply a total of 5amps for two 6080 plus 2amps for two 6SN7/ECC32 for a total of about 7 amps. Running a pair of 6336 requires 10amps plus 2amps for a total of about 12amps.
> 
> One pair of 6336 is equivalent to running *four 6080 in your WA22!* And I am 99.99% sure that your WA22 cannot deliver 12amps of heater current.
> 
> As an aside, the Glenn OTL is one of the very few OTLs that can use pair of 6336.


 

 Lol. In other words my WA22 will blow up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks.


----------



## 2359glenn

badas said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > No. The 6336 draws twice as much heater current as the 6080/6AS7. Put very simply, your WA22 has a power transformer that can supply a total of 5amps for two 6080 plus 2amps for two 6SN7/ECC32 for a total of about 7 amps. Running a pair of 6336 requires 10amps plus 2amps for a total of about 12amps.
> ...


 

 Yes you will burn up your power transformer *DO NOT TRY THEM* they work in my amp because I a


badas said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > No. The 6336 draws twice as much heater current as the 6080/6AS7. Put very simply, your WA22 has a power transformer that can supply a total of 5amps for two 6080 plus 2amps for two 6SN7/ECC32 for a total of about 7 amps. Running a pair of 6336 requires 10amps plus 2amps for a total of about 12amps.
> ...


 

 You will burn up your power transformer.  *DO NOT TRY THEM !!!  *They work in my amp because I am nuts.


----------



## punit

gibosi said:


> As I recall, Glenn recommended against the straight 6336 in favor of the 6336A or 6336B. Evidently, the 6336 are prone to arcing.


 
 As per Gelnn's advice I wait for 5 mins after switching on the amp before plugging in HP's so as to avoid arcing issues . Which is not really a problem as I always wait for the tubes to warm up before listening anyways.


----------



## Skylab

Glenn does lots of unique and very cool thing in his amps that allow for a lot of unusual tube rolling, but as he says above, this does NOT mean those same tubes will work in other amps.


----------



## mordy

Hi All,
 I went to 6AS7 university and took a very thorough course - I actually read all the posts on this thread - took a while.
  
 Lots of interesting and good information. A few observations:
  
 I am convinced that our New Zealand friend Bada has something wrong with his equipment, wires, cables, electric environment etc since he had so many problems with noisy tubes, something that most other people rarely experienced.
  
 About cleaning tube pins: Some time ago I looked into this and found a research paper from the 40's plus some other research results. The conclusion was that the best connection is metal to metal without any intervening substances such as cleaning agents or contact enhancers. According to these people the best way to clean the tube pins is to gently scrape them with a small blade from a knife (does not have to be sharp) or similar. (Personally, I use the small blade of a little pocket knife.) In this way I have actually revived a "dead" tube and quited noisy tubes where the pins actually looked shiny and clean.
  
 One more thing. I have a friend who is a retired A/V engineer who started out in the tube era. He told me that using socket savers could change the capacitance and change the sound. I just tried double socket savers in my Elise amp now trying to use 1.5A power tubes - the 6BL7. When I first tried these tubes without socket savers they seemed to run out of steam when the volume was turned up, but now I get more than enough volume to drive low Z cans and can play through speakers louder than I want. Don't know if it has to do with the dual socket savers - maybe somebody can weigh in on this.
  
 BTW, these tubes sound quite nice, with a relaxed, laid back, multi layered and detailed sound. The only drawbacks are a lack of real slam in the low bass and not the widest sound stage. (Using a 50's pair of Sylvania 6BL7GT tubes)
  
 Cheers,


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi All,
> I went to 6AS7 university and took a very thorough course - I actually read all the posts on this thread - took a while.
> 
> Lots of interesting and good information. A few observations:
> ...


 

 About Badas noisy tubes, i had the same problem with the Russian power tubes his tubes were noisy with his WA22 and tubes made a buzzing sound also in my WA22 but when i put them in my WA2 no sound at all mystery


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> About Badas noisy tubes, i had the same problem with the Russian power tubes his tubes were noisy with his WA22 and tubes made a buzzing sound also in my WA22 but when i put them in my WA2 no sound at all mystery


 

 I have also previously removed the bottom plate off mine and inspected the caps which looked fine. Also took it into a knowledgeable audio shop which inspected and said everything was nicely done and fine.
  
 Woo WA22 just does not play nicely with some 6080/6AS7G tubes.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> I have also previously removed the bottom plate off mine and inspected the caps which looked fine. Also took it into a knowledgeable audio shop which inspected and said everything was nicely done and fine.
> 
> Woo WA22 just does not play nicely with some 6080/6AS7G tubes.



What do you think of the tung sol 7236 tubes in the wa22


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> What do you think of the tung sol 7236 tubes in the wa22


 

 Very powerful. Altho it is not required. The most powerful power tube rolled in my WA22.
 Very neutral. The most neutral I have rolled. Which incidently is not my thing. However it will be others.
 Fast paced.
  
 Dead quiet in the WA22.
  
 A very nice tube. Just not my thing. I like a slower and a more full bodied sound (romantic).


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Very powerful. Altho it is not required. The most powerful power tube rolled in my WA22.
> Very neutral. The most neutral I have rolled. Which incidently is not my thing. However it will be others.
> Fast paced.
> 
> ...



Makes sense. Me too probably but power tubes are new to me so going to try several. 
Which do you like the best?


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Makes sense. Me too probably but power tubes are new to me so going to try several.
> Which do you like the best?


 

 Well Obviously the GEC 6AS7G, Tung Sol 5998 and Western Electric 421 but I haven't been lucky enough to score any of those and the prices climb every day.
  
 Out of the ones I have tried I really liked the Mullards and I purchased 3 sets of them. Beautiful sound. Unfortunately mine are very noisy in the WA22.
  
 I have tried RCA, Raytheon, Sylvania 6AS7G's. They are basically the same tube just re-labeled. A little dull. Obvious treble roll which narrows the soundstage.
  
 Tung-Sol 7236. Nice tube. Fast and energetic. Neutral.
  
 Bendix 6080 graphite plates. Another really nice tube. Similar to the 7236 but not as powerful. Amazing build. Weighs twice the weight of other tubes.
  
 GE 6080. Stock tube. I actually like this tube. It does nothing wrong. I could actually use this tube all the time.
  
 Sylvania 6080. I have two sets labelled Brimar, One set labelled Telefunkin, One set labelled National and one as a Sylvania. So a very big relabeled tube. Another nice tube. Very holographic and silky. Just a tad too bright for my taste.
  
 Russian 6N13. I've had terrible luck with these. A lot without vacuum all from different suppliers. Extremely noisy in the WA22. I have one set out of 9 that is useable (quiet) so I have it stored for reference only. If they work they are a nice sounding tube. Do nothing wrong and have a nice mid-range.
  
 GE 6AS7G. My favorite. I like this tube. 97.5% as good as the Mullard. Without the noise. I have 2 sets and just ordered 5 more sets last week. I will use this tube from now on. I plan to buy 5 more sets next month if the 5 sets I have ordered are quiet.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Well Obviously the GEC 6AS7G, Tung Sol 5998 and Western Electric 421 but I haven't been lucky enough to score any of those and the prices climb every day.
> 
> Out of the ones I have tried I really liked the Mullards and I purchased 3 sets of them. Beautiful sound. Unfortunately mine are very noisy in the WA22.
> 
> ...



Thank you. Just what I needed. Always helping me pick tubes.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Thank you. Just what I needed. Always helping me pick tubes.


 

 Opps. I forgot:
  
 RCA 6080. Another nice tube. Full bodied sound. Just a tad bit of treble roll. less than the RCA 6AS7G. If this didn't have treble roll I would love this tube. I have noticed it is a RCA thing (treble roll).
 RCA 6SN7 GT Clearglass and greyglass has big treble roll. RCA 6F8G flatplates do as well. However they are nice. RCA 6C8G roundplates are the only RCA tubes I have found without treble roll, however the plates are supplied by NU and the RCA version is lean. The NU version is very nice and my second favorite drive tube.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> GE 6AS7G. My favorite. I like this tube. 97.5% as good as the Mullard. Without the noise. I have 2 sets and just ordered 5 more sets last week. I will use this tube from now on. I plan to buy 5 more sets next month if the 5 sets I have ordered are quiet.


 
  
 I don't think GE manufactured the coke-bottle 6AS7G, but they did make a straight-sided 6AS7GA....


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> I don't think GE manufactured the coke-bottle 6AS7G, but they did make a straight-sided 6AS7GA....


 

 Yip. That's the one I'm talking about. It looks like a standard 6080 but with a black bottom base. I've also seen them labeled as a GE 5998 (stupid really).


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> I don't think GE manufactured the coke-bottle 6AS7G, but they did make a straight-sided 6AS7GA....




I actually have a pair of 6AS7GAs from PE playing right now in the Elise. 7AF7 drivers. The GEs are more tone than detail. They're relatively warm, a bit laid back, very forgiving, but ultimately a touch cloudy. They're missing the push to clarity. The tonal balance is an almost opposite of RCA JAN 6080WA (black script). I have 3 sets of GAs; all seem to be made by GE. This set is the warmest of all.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> I actually have a pair of 6AS7GAs from PE playing right now in the Elise. 7AF7 drivers. The GEs are more tone than detail. They're relatively warm, a bit laid back, very forgiving, but ultimately a touch cloudy. They're missing the push to clarity. The tonal balance is an almost opposite of RCA JAN 6080WA (black script). I have 3 sets of GAs; all seem to be made by GE. This set is the warmest of all.


 

 Funny how tubes react differently to different amps and tube arrangements.
  
 My GE 6AS7G do not sound cloudy. They are not the brightest like the Sylvania 6080 but they are not cloudy. I would say similar to the Mullard 6080, Tung-sol 7236, Bendix 6080.
  
 I found the RCA 6080 and 6AS7G treble rolled. So opposite.
  
 Another tube I didn't mention was the Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G. Damn these are nice. Tung-Sol 6520 seems identical in construction. I rolled those in over the weekend. Something about those that I can't put my finger on that I really like. I have 3 sets of those put away for a rainy day. Unfortunately they are hard to find.
  
 I then switched back to the GE 6AS7G. I found no loss in detail and similar sounding to the Tung-Sol 6AS7G.
  
 In saying that I find the power tubes have the least effect on sound with the Woo WA22. I would only say it effects 15% of the sound. You can hear the difference but all sound very close to each other. The Drivers I would say are 55% of the sound. Rectifiers 30%.
 With the WA22 having certain drivers installed you can't hear any difference in  power tubes. RCA 6SN7 for example. If you run those drivers you can run any power tube.
  
 I use Tung-Sol 6C8G round plate drivers, Brimar 5Z4GY rectifier and GE 6AS7G power tubes for reference.


----------



## Shaffer

badas said:


> Funny how tubes react differently to different amps and tube arrangements.
> 
> My GE 6AS7G do not sound cloudy. They are not the brightest like the Sylvania 6080 but they are not cloudy. I would say similar to the Mullard 6080, Tung-sol 7236, Bendix 6080.




Ultimately, it all becomes a matter of reference. 



> I found the RCA 6080 and 6AS7G treble rolled. So opposite.




It's difficult to group all the versions into a similar sonic signature. The JAN 6080WAs I mentioned (early-50s production, though I have some going back to '48) are physically smaller than the rest of my RCA 6080 - I have 7 pairs - and have a sonic signature that differs, as well. They're very detailed, bright and sunny sounding with a somewhat lean low-end. Go forward ~6 years, and the JAN RCA 6080 is much more full on the bottom, slightly warmer tonally, but equally as extended. The non-JAN version from the same era isn't as detailed or as vivid sounding, but more dimensional and spacious. I can go on....

In terms of RCA 6AS7G, I don't find a whole lot of similarities with 6080. Personally, I prefer the black plate versions that sound more focused to my ears, where as the grey plates are more diffuse and close in presentation to the non-JAN 6080 mentioned above, but without the bouncing, rockin' bass. This isn't to say the grey plates sound lean; their bass doesn't have the same slam and weight. As a note of interest, the last versions of RCA 6080 - the H6, IIRC - were made by GE. 



> I then switched back to the GE 6AS7G. I found no loss in detail and similar sounding to the Tung-Sol 6AS7G.




I have both the JAN and the non-JAN versions of the TS 6AS7G and can't say that my experience is similar. I think the TS' sound much more open and transparent, compared to the GEs, with significantly better defined lows, and a noticeably more spacious presentation. It's like watching a movie on wide screen vs a CRT TV.



> In saying that I find the power tubes have the least effect on sound with the Woo WA22. I would only say it effects 15% of the sound. You can hear the difference but all sound very close to each other. The Drivers I would say are 55% of the sound. Rectifiers 30%.
> With the WA22 having certain drivers installed you can't hear any difference in  power tubes. RCA 6SN7 for example. If you run those drivers you can run any power tube.




I wish the Elise had tube rectification. It would be fun to play with. I mostly prefer 7N7 and 7AF7 drivers. Power tubes change depending the mood of the day


----------



## adeadcrab

badas said:


> Funny how tubes react differently to different amps and tube arrangements.
> 
> My GE 6AS7G do not sound cloudy. They are not the brightest like the Sylvania 6080 but they are not cloudy. I would say similar to the Mullard 6080, Tung-sol 7236, Bendix 6080.


 


 I prefer the Bendix 6080WB (Tung Sol branded) for its controlled bass impact. Sound signatures are similar apart from the bass; the Bendix are just as smooth with maybe a slight amount more detail. The bass textures are polar opposites though.

 GE are still very capable though.


----------



## ru4music

badas said:


> Yip. That's the one I'm talking about. It looks like a standard 6080 but with a black bottom base. I've also seen them labeled as a GE 5998 (stupid really).


 
  


gibosi said:


> I don't think GE manufactured the coke-bottle 6AS7G, but they did make a straight-sided 6AS7GA....


 
 There are some GE coke-bottle 6AS7Gs around, I not sure if GE tooled them of if they were just relabels:


----------



## Badas

ru4music said:


> There are some GE coke-bottle 6AS7Gs around, I not sure if GE tooled them of if they were just relabels:




That's basically the Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7g. You can tell by the little silver bits at the bottom of the black plates. Plus the fact it doesn't have a flap like the RCA version.


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> I prefer the Bendix 6080WB (Tung Sol branded) for its controlled bass impact. Sound signatures are similar apart from the bass; the Bendix are just as smooth with maybe a slight amount more detail. The bass textures are polar opposites though.
> 
> 
> GE are still very capable though.




That's the version I have (Bendix labelled Tung-Sol). Unfortunately it is not the slotted graphite plates which are supose to sound the best. A great tube.


----------



## adeadcrab

From what I"ve read re: slotted and solid columns, there is not much of a difference and some will even say no difference at all.
 Which is good to hear as I have 2 matched pairs of solid column 6080WB!!


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Opps. I forgot:
> 
> RCA 6080. Another nice tube. Full bodied sound. Just a tad bit of treble roll. less than the RCA 6AS7G. If this didn't have treble roll I would love this tube. I have noticed it is a RCA thing (treble roll).
> RCA 6SN7 GT Clearglass and greyglass has big treble roll. RCA 6F8G flatplates do as well. However they are nice. RCA 6C8G roundplates are the only RCA tubes I have found without treble roll, however the plates are supplied by NU and the RCA version is lean. The NU version is very nice and my second favorite drive tube.


 

 Have you tried the GEC 6080?
 Same as Mullard?


----------



## 3083joe

Badas
Is this the GE


----------



## zeroduke

I've got this one, GE 6AS7G, which is different from the one shown in previous post.


----------



## Badas

^^

Yes it is.

^

That look like a Russian rebrand. However I can't see the flying saucer getters. The bottle and the top construction looks like the Russian 6N13 tho. The print looks too good also.


----------



## ru4music

adeadcrab said:


> From what I"ve read re: slotted and solid columns, there is not much of a difference and some will even say no difference at all.
> Which is good to hear as I have 2 matched pairs of solid column 6080WB!!


 
  
 X2, I have 2 pair Tung-Sol labeled and 1 pair Bendix (different construction from the TS.)  Interesting tube and one of my favorite 6080 types.


----------



## zeroduke

badas said:


> ^^
> 
> Yes it is.
> 
> ...


 

 These are the boxes which came with the 6AS7Gs.  They look old and different from the one I knew.


----------



## Puzzles

zeroduke said:


> I've got this one, GE 6AS7G, which is different from the one shown in previous post.


 
  
 This is definitely a 6AS7G from Tung Sol or Chatham. It cannot be a 6N13S because these would have taller cooling fins at the top, and they would have the saucer getters. Your tube has D getters if I'm not mistaken. So that rules out Svetlana. 
 It cannot be RCA made because these would have cooling fins below the plates. Also, the getter wire would be much larger than in the tube shown, filling almost the entire plane in the tube, and the wire would have a flat 'blade' at the straight part of the D. So it very probably made by Tung Sol or Chatham. Their tubes varied in some details (getter position, getter type, grid post material, plate carbonization) depending on which factory made them and the time they were made, so I wouldn't say which made your tube, but is made by either of them. They don't differ in sound, so it doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## 3083joe

zeroduke said:


> I've got this one, GE 6AS7G, which is different from the one shown in previous post.


 
 Like the Stand


----------



## Badas

zeroduke said:


> These are the boxes which came with the 6AS7Gs.  They look old and different from the one I knew.


 
  
 It looks legit. The puzzle continues.


puzzles said:


> This is definitely a 6AS7G from Tung Sol or Chatham. It cannot be a 6N13S because these would have taller cooling fins at the top, and they would have the saucer getters. Your tube has D getters if I'm not mistaken. So that rules out Svetlana.
> It cannot be RCA made because these would have cooling fins below the plates. Also, the getter wire would be much larger than in the tube shown, filling almost the entire plane in the tube, and the wire would have a flat 'blade' at the straight part of the D. So it very probably made by Tung Sol or Chatham. Their tubes varied in some details (getter position, getter type, grid post material, plate carbonization) depending on which factory made them and the time they were made, so I wouldn't say which made your tube, but is made by either of them. They don't differ in sound, so it doesn't matter anyway.


 
  
 Yes. I was studying the length of the top cooling fins as well. Often they have a crease mark traveling horizontally around as well. 
  
 It doesn't have the little triangle silver bits on the bottom of the plates like the Chatham and Tung-Sol's usually have. Also most Chatham / Tung-Sol's have chrome tops. So a bit of a mystery that tube. 
  
 Here is a pic of my Tung-Sol 6AS7G's. I also have a Chatham pair. Note the silver bits on the bottom of the plates. Left hand tube.
  

  
 This is my Tung-Sol Bendix 6080 tubes. I'm tempted to roll them back in with all the talk. The construction on these freak me out. Amazing.


----------



## zeroduke

3083joe said:


> Like the Stand


 

 I required the help of this Philips shaver stand!


----------



## zeroduke

puzzles said:


> This is definitely a 6AS7G from Tung Sol or Chatham. It cannot be a 6N13S because these would have taller cooling fins at the top, and they would have the saucer getters. Your tube has D getters if I'm not mistaken. So that rules out Svetlana.
> It cannot be RCA made because these would have cooling fins below the plates. Also, the getter wire would be much larger than in the tube shown, filling almost the entire plane in the tube, and the wire would have a flat 'blade' at the straight part of the D. So it very probably made by Tung Sol or Chatham. Their tubes varied in some details (getter position, getter type, grid post material, plate carbonization) depending on which factory made them and the time they were made, so I wouldn't say which made your tube, but is made by either of them. They don't differ in sound, so it doesn't matter anyway.


 

 Thank you for your help.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> This is my Tung-Sol Bendix 6080 tubes. I'm tempted to roll them back in with all the talk. The construction on these freak me out. Amazing.


 
 Trying to find a set of this now!!!
 Have you tried the TS 6520 s?


----------



## zeroduke

badas said:


> It doesn't have the little triangle silver bits on the bottom of the plates like the Chatham and Tung-Sol's usually have. Also most Chatham / Tung-Sol's have chrome tops. So a bit of a mystery that tube.


 
 This one has the little triangles in black.  And I've got 4 of them, all the same.


----------



## Badas

zeroduke said:


> This one has the little triangles in black.  And I've got 4 of them, all the same.


 

 Excellent. It will be a Chatham Tung-Sol build then. A very nice tube. They have a massive soundfield. Very lush. It will my most liked Coke bottle styled 6AS7G. I haven't heard the GEC 6AS7G tho (I'm tempted to pay those crazy prices to just try).


----------



## zeroduke

badas said:


> Excellent. It will be a Chatham Tung-Sol build then. A very nice tube. They have a massive soundfield. Very lush. It will my most liked Coke bottle styled 6AS7G. I haven't heard the GEC 6AS7G tho (I'm tempted to pay those crazy prices to just try).


 

 Thank you, Badas


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Excellent. It will be a Chatham Tung-Sol build then. A very nice tube. They have a massive soundfield. Very lush. It will my most liked Coke bottle styled 6AS7G. I haven't heard the GEC 6AS7G tho (I'm tempted to pay those crazy prices to just try).



Think I might.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Think I might.


 

 Go on, go on.


----------



## abvolt

I don't own any GEC 6as7g's but I have heard them wow they are really nice, I'd  have a pair myself if it weren't for their price..


----------



## 3083joe

abvolt said:


> I don't own any GEC 6as7g's but I have heard them wow they are really nice, I'd  have a pair myself if it weren't for their price..



Really, I know the cheapest I've found is around 500 a set. And that's what I paid for the ecc32 mullard!


----------



## adeadcrab

.. Am I the only one using Shuguang 6N13 / 6N13P / 6N13P-T from China? Saw that they're not listed in the OP either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nice clean sound, similiar to winged C if you prefer a neutral sound. Nothing to it...


----------



## 3083joe

Badas
Are the ts 6080wb the same as Bendix 6080wb?


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Are the ts 6080wb the same as Bendix 6080wb?


 
  
 If the tube has graphite plates and ceramic spacers, it was made by Bendix. If it has metal plates with metal bracing on mica spacers, it was made by Chatham.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> If the tube has graphite plates and ceramic spacers, it was made by Bendix. If it has metal plates with metal bracing on mica spacers, it was made by Chatham.



Thanks


----------



## whirlwind

I would like to find a pair of 6080 slotted Bendix....you find any difference in the sound between slotted and regular, gibosi ?


----------



## gibosi

whirlwind said:


> I would like to find a pair of 6080 slotted Bendix....you find any difference in the sound between slotted and regular, gibosi ?


 
  
 Too many tubes... not enough hours... lol. 
  
 Since many reviewers felt the slotted Bendix were slightly better, I started with them, and as I really like them, I haven't taken the time to compare the solid versus slotted. Perhaps someone else has and is willing to chime in here?


----------



## Dogmatrix

whirlwind said:


> I would like to find a pair of 6080 slotted Bendix....you find any difference in the sound between slotted and regular, gibosi ?


 

 I have both , don't find any difference between them in sound but the slotted version warms up faster
 I find they sound a little thin and weak until they warm up fully which is around 60 minutes for the slots and 90 minutes for the solid
 Once warm they are a match for any 6080 including GEC
 I have a Bendix solid in at the moment and I would rank it in my top 3 along with WE421a and TS6520


----------



## ru4music

dogmatrix said:


> I have both , don't find any difference between them in sound but the slotted version warms up faster
> I find they sound a little thin and weak until they warm up fully which is around 60 minutes for the slots and 90 minutes for the solid
> Once warm they are a match for any 6080 including GEC
> I have a Bendix solid in at the moment and I would rank it in my top 3 along with WE421a and TS6520


 

 Which amp(s) and headphone(s) from your listening are you basing this on?  It seems you have a few from your profile.  I would agree that the Bendix graphite 6080 is as good as 6080's get from my WA3 and WA2 listening experiences.


----------



## ru4music

gibosi said:


> *Too many tubes... not enough hours... lol. *
> 
> Since many reviewers felt the slotted Bendix were slightly better, I started with them, and as I really like them, I haven't taken the time to compare the solid versus slotted. Perhaps someone else has and is willing to chime in here?


 
 Agreed!  I'm trying to burn-in a NOS 2399 (5998) pair right now to compare against my primary JAN TS 5998s.  Otherwise, I would throw in my TS and Bendix 6080WBs for comparisons, but wait... I can't do that just yet because I owe a HD800 to HD650 hp comparison on the WA2 as it compares to the WA3, but wait ...
 I can't think of a better way to go insane though!!!


----------



## 3083joe

skylab said:


> It's true. Only Tung-Sol made the 5998. You see them branded Chatham (which was bought by Tung-Sol), and IBM, and of course the most famous branding was the Western Electric 421a, but even these are 100% identical to the Tung-Sol 5998.
> 
> GE did make a "5998A", but this is a different tube. It has a plate structure more like a 6AS7 than the 5998, and is in a straight-bottle. They also sound nowhere near as good as the TS 5998.


 
  

 Thank you! Been looking for this!


----------



## ru4music

Yes, I read Rob's (Skylab) info before on the 5998 question.  What I find interesting is the comparison I'm doing right now against a Chatham 2399 (aka 5998) pair and a Tung-Sol JAN 5998 pair.  The build of the 2399 is very similar (e.g. domino plates, top getter etc.) but the bottle is shorter and a little wider and some of the mica separation construction is a little different using cleats.  I need to let the 2399s burn-in for about 100 hours but I believe the tubes are little more laid back and have a bit more mid range bloom reminding me of the GEC 6as7 signature.  Time will tell, but I'm wondering if Chatham could have made 2399s before Tung-Sol bought them out (??)


----------



## 3083joe

ru4music said:


> Yes, I read Rob's (Skylab) info before on the 5998 question.  What I find interesting is the comparison I'm doing right now against a Chatham 2399 (aka 5998) pair and a Tung-Sol JAN 5998 pair.  The build of the 2399 is very similar (e.g. domino plates, top getter etc.) but the bottle is shorter and a little wider and some of the mica separation construction is a little different using cleats.  I need to let the 2399s burn-in for about 100 hours but I believe the tubes are little more laid back and have a bit more mid range bloom reminding me of the GEC 6as7 signature.  Time will tell, but I'm wondering if Chatham could have made 2399s before Tung-Sol bought them out (??)



Very interesting. But if they are labeled 2399 would they fall under the same category rob was talking about?


----------



## 3083joe

ru4music
Read this on bottlecrack forum
"I ordered what was supposed to be a Tung Sol 5998 last week, the box arrived yesterday and what I pulled out is a Chatham 2399. I spend a bit of time searching for information on this tube and what little I did find seems to indicate that the 2399 is like a 5998 but a little different. Can anyone here clarify just what this tube is? It definitely is not exactly the same as a 5998, to quote from a posting on Head-fi.org, 
"There really are a number of differences. Most easily appreciated is the presence of a 3rd spacer tab holding the top mica against the glass, probably to improve on microphonics. There is an additional coating of some kind on the plates that was sprayed on after the micas were fixed in place, because you can see where the overspray, blocked by the plates, forms a cross on the bottom of the mica. There is also an additional coating or jacket on many wires which are normally bare in the 5998 and 6AS7G. Most obvious would be the copper grid posts and grid wires in place of the normal steel ones. It looks like the pins have been tinned for some reason as well..."
I did a visual comparison, well as good as I could comparing what I had in my hand with pictures of a 5998 I found online and I verified the statement I quoted. I'm leaning towards keeping it because the one thing most could agree on is that it is a good sounding tube. But, does it sound as good as a 5998, and is it worth the same money I paid for a 5998?"


----------



## Dogmatrix

ru4music said:


> Which amp(s) and headphone(s) from your listening are you basing this on?  It seems you have a few from your profile.  I would agree that the Bendix graphite 6080 is as good as 6080's get from my WA3 and WA2 listening experiences.


 

 Good point
 I am using "Sanguine" a custom build by Retro Thermionics it is similar to a Bottlehead Crack but has a more elaborate power supply and runs a 6922 driver , combined with HD800


----------



## ru4music

3083joe said:


> @ru4music
> Read this on bottlecrack forum
> "I ordered what was supposed to be a Tung Sol 5998 last week, the box arrived yesterday and what I pulled out is a Chatham 2399. I spend a bit of time searching for information on this tube and what little I did find seems to indicate that the 2399 is like a 5998 but a little different. Can anyone here clarify just what this tube is? It definitely is not exactly the same as a 5998, to quote from a posting on Head-fi.org,
> "There really are a number of differences. Most easily appreciated is the presence of a 3rd spacer tab holding the top mica against the glass, probably to improve on microphonics. There is an additional coating of some kind on the plates that was sprayed on after the micas were fixed in place, because you can see where the overspray, blocked by the plates, forms a cross on the bottom of the mica. There is also an additional coating or jacket on many wires which are normally bare in the 5998 and 6AS7G. Most obvious would be the copper grid posts and grid wires in place of the normal steel ones. It looks like the pins have been tinned for some reason as well..."
> I did a visual comparison, well as good as I could comparing what I had in my hand with pictures of a 5998 I found online and I verified the statement I quoted. I'm leaning towards keeping it because the one thing most could agree on is that it is a good sounding tube. But, does it sound as good as a 5998, and is it worth the same money I paid for a 5998?"


 

 Yes, I actually have read that passage before as well ( I have been crawling the web on this subject matter since early 2000! lol ) My point or thought to all this is everyone considers the 2399 to be exactly the same as a 5998.  Could Chatham have built 2399 tubes before Tung-Sol bought them out, and if so, could these pre Tung-Sols 2399s be a little different than the post Tung-Sol 2399s?  That is the basis of my comparison that I working on right now.


----------



## ru4music

dogmatrix said:


> Good point
> I am using "Sanguine" a custom build by Retro Thermionics it is similar to a Bottlehead Crack but has a more elaborate power supply and runs a 6922 driver , combined with HD800


 

 Perfect, very similar to the Woo WA3 and WA2 topology!


----------



## 3083joe

ru4music said:


> Yes, I actually have read that passage before as well ( I have been crawling the web on this subject matter since early 2000! lol ) My point or thought to all this is everyone considers the 2399 to be exactly the same as a 5998.  Could Chatham have built 2399 tubes before Tung-Sol bought them out, and if so, could these pre Tung-Sols 2399s be a little different than the post Tung-Sol 2399s?  That is the basis of my comparison that I working on right now.



Look forward to your comparison thoughts. I have also read lots about the 421 vs ts 5998 being different in sound, well it seems to be debatable. Would love to compare them as well.


----------



## Skylab

Realize that there are some well documented construction differences in Tung-Sol / Chatham 5998 tubes. Mostly small/subtle differences, but there are. Production undoubtedly evolved over the years. This tube was in production for a decent while, I believe even after Cetron bought Tung-Sol.


----------



## GrindingThud

I believe the sanguine is direct coupled while the Woos are cap coupled between the stages. Would love to see a photo of the inside. I've been wanting to convert my WA3 to direct coupled for a long time. As for the 5998/2399, they sound the same to me (good in the right circuit). 



ru4music said:


> Perfect, very similar to the Woo WA3 and WA2 topology!


----------



## attmci

dogmatrix said:


> I have both , don't find any difference between them in sound but the slotted version warms up faster
> I find they sound a little thin and weak until they warm up fully which is around 60 minutes for the slots and 90 minutes for the solid
> Once warm they are a match for any 6080 including GEC
> I have a Bendix solid in at the moment and I would rank it in my top 3 along with WE421a and TS6520


 

 Yes. The Bendix 6080WB takes a while to warm up.
  
  
 One of my Bendix WB box says: BENDIX RADIO TOWSON MD. MFG./CONTR.; USN 6080WA; DATE PK'D. 5/57 METHOD: III 2800.1


----------



## gibosi

To add to Skylab's post, the 5998 was manufactured from the early 1950's into at least the early 1970's. And of course, with feedback from the field and the introduction of new materials and technologies, the internal construction continuously changed over that period of time. And thus I would suggest that when comparing a 5998 and a 2399, you are likely noticing construction differences due to different dates of manufacture. And further, it is my belief that a 2399 and a 5998 manufactured at the same time are identical.


----------



## Dogmatrix

grindingthud said:


> I believe the sanguine is direct coupled while the Woos are cap coupled between the stages. Would love to see a photo of the inside. I've been wanting to convert my WA3 to direct coupled for a long time. As for the 5998/2399, they sound the same to me (good in the right circuit).


 

  
 I believe you are correct , direct coupled with ac heaters . The output socket is the one on the right in the first picture
 "Sanguine" internals amp on the left , power supply on the right


----------



## ru4music

3083joe said:


> Look forward to your comparison thoughts. I have also read lots about the 421 vs ts 5998 being different in sound, well it seems to be debatable. Would love to compare them as well.


 

 Listening to some jazz favorite redbook CD music on the modified Shanling CDP and X-Sabre;* F'n* incredible, the 2399s are really opening up.  The recording is absolutely the limiting factor.  Sigh!!!  WA2  platform -  (Amperex 6922 (Herleen white lable PQs, Brimar EZ80s, and the incredible Chatham 2399 (aka 5998).)  Some of the female jazz recordings really blew me away!


----------



## ru4music

gibosi said:


> To add to Skylab's post, the 5998 was manufactured from the early 1950's into at least the early 1970's. And of course, with feedback from the field and the introduction of new materials and technologies, the internal construction continuously changed over that period of time. And thus I would suggest that when comparing a 5998 and a 2399, you are likely noticing construction differences due to different dates of manufacture. And further, it is my belief that a 2399 and a 5998 manufactured at the same time are identical.


 

 I would agree with that statement (however, my original question was not answered.)  It is a general business practice to buy out a business for technology rather than incurring R&D cost for a product.  So, (from a historical/ hypothetical perspective) did Tung-Sol buy Chatham and take the 2399 tube knowledge to manufacture the 5998 tube etc. ??  The're both sound great, are the 5998s a later evolution of the 2399s???  What are the timelines for the 2399 and 5998 tubes to enter the market?


----------



## ru4music

attmci said:


> Yes. The Bendix 6080WB takes a while to warm up.
> 
> 
> One of my Bendix WB box says: BENDIX RADIO TOWSON MD. MFG./CONTR.; USN 6080WA; DATE PK'D. 5/57 METHOD: III 2800.1


 
 I agree, and would also like to add that my Bendix 6080WBs ( with a good source) actually stepped up to a different level after several hours on my WA3 (seriously.)  The tubes really can stabilize (e.g. reason for the graphite in the first place for prolong endurance.)


----------



## Badas

^

Maybe that is why I didn't rank them? I thought they were nice to okay. Just not a favorite. However my listening time are only usually 2 hours. Maybe they hadn't warmed up.

In saying that I wouldn't tolerate warming up any tube. They have to sound good from start up. Great in 30 minutes or so.


----------



## adeadcrab

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Maybe that is why I didn't rank them? I thought they were nice to okay. Just not a favorite. However my listening time are only usually 2 hours. Maybe they hadn't warmed up.
> 
> In saying that I wouldn't tolerate warming up any tube. They have to sound good from start up. Great in 30 minutes or so.


 

 The Bendix are noticeably heavy due in part to their strong glass, which takes more time to warm up before it sounds optimal.

 Now, the trade off is that this better design _should_ result in a longer lifespan. One can only hope at least, as they are getting rarer these days.

 I wait until they stop 'ticking' (glass warming up) before I listen to them. Only about 15-20 minutes. Others have said up to 90 minutes. I think 20 minutes is good enough.


----------



## Badas

^

Thanks. 

Okay. All this talk. I'm going to roll them back in.


----------



## whirlwind

dogmatrix said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to find a pair of 6080 slotted Bendix....you find any difference in the sound between slotted and regular, gibosi ?
> ...


 
 Thanks....I will keep my eyes open for a pair of slotted.....I have a set of GEC 6080, it will be fun to compare them


----------



## 3083joe

ru4music said:


> Listening to some jazz favorite redbook CD music on the modified Shanling CDP and X-Sabre; *F'n* incredible, the 2399s are really opening up.  The recording is absolutely the limiting factor.  Sigh!!!  WA2  platform -  (Amperex 6922 (Herleen white lable PQs, Brimar EZ80s, and the incredible Chatham 2399 (aka 5998).)  Some of the female jazz recordings really blew me away!



Awesome. Female jazz vocals are my favorite! Listen to this right now on my portable system.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Maybe that is why I didn't rank them? I thought they were nice to okay. Just not a favorite. However my listening time are only usually 2 hours. Maybe they hadn't warmed up.
> 
> In saying that I wouldn't tolerate warming up any tube. They have to sound good from start up. Great in 30 minutes or so.



Yes same here. Hr tops. 
The mullard ecc32 s take near an hr to sound best.


----------



## 2359glenn

whirlwind said:


> dogmatrix said:
> 
> 
> > whirlwind said:
> ...


 

 You know you can use the 6336 too good if you have low impedance cans.


----------



## Dogmatrix

2359glenn said:


> You know you can use the 6336 too good if you have low impedance cans.


 

 Heaters draw 5 amps compared to 2.4 for a 5998


----------



## 2359glenn

dogmatrix said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > You know you can use the 6336 too good if you have low impedance cans.
> ...


 

 I should have specified for Whirlwind who's amp will have 6.3 volts @ 13.2 amps 
 Plenty for two 6336


----------



## gibosi

ru4music said:


> I would agree with that statement (however, my original question was not answered.)  It is a general business practice to buy out a business for technology rather than incurring R&D cost for a product.  So, (from a historical/ hypothetical perspective) did Tung-Sol buy Chatham and take the 2399 tube knowledge to manufacture the 5998 tube etc. ??  The're both sound great, are the 5998s a later evolution of the 2399s???  What are the timelines for the 2399 and 5998 tubes to enter the market?


 
  
 Searching Google for data sheets for a "2399" comes up empty and so I can only conclude that "2399" is not an official designation for this vacuum tube. My best guess is whoever bought these tubes used "2399" an an internal inventory number of some kind for the 5998. And since they purchased these tubes in large quantities, Tung-Sol/Chatham was more than happy to label them accordingly.
  
 To the best of my knowledge, Tung-Sol never made the 6AS7, 5998, 6080 or 7236 before the acquisition of Chatham. Further, only Chatham manufactured the 5998. So every 5998 (and 2399) and 421A was manufactured by Chatham. And as Chatham had a very good reputation, Tung-Sol continued to label these tubes with the Chatham brand for several years after the acquisition.
  
 I should say that as all these events occurred some 50 years ago, the above is nothing more than my best guess as to what happened....
  
 Cheers


----------



## whirlwind

2359glenn said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > dogmatrix said:
> ...


 
 I am going to get me a set of 6336 also Glenn, because I have a pair of Grado 32 ohm headphones that I also plan to use with my amp, along with the HD650 and HD800....I am so looking forward to it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 I am going to have a blast rolling all of these tubes.


----------



## 2359glenn

The 6336 get screaming hot but they will drive 32 ohm phones that most OTLs cannot


----------



## whirlwind

2359glenn said:


> The 6336 get screaming hot but they will drive 32 ohm phones that most OTLs cannot


 
 Any certain 6336 that you would recommend, Glenn ?


----------



## 2359glenn

whirlwind said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > The 6336 get screaming hot but they will drive 32 ohm phones that most OTLs cannot
> ...


 

 I have a nice pair of Cetron 6336 that I use Also got a nice set of GEs
 Ether one of these would be good for  you.
 I would stay away from used ones.


----------



## whirlwind

2359glenn said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > 2359glenn said:
> ...


 
 Thank you, Glenn.....I will try to grab a nice new pair  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Does it matter if they are 6336 A or B or just 6336


----------



## 2359glenn

whirlwind said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > whirlwind said:
> ...


 

 I don't think it matters mine are A


----------



## whirlwind

2359glenn said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > 2359glenn said:
> ...


 
 OK....Thank you, Glenn


----------



## Dogmatrix

My 2399/5998/421a theory
 I only have hearsay evidence from an amp designer and the fact that the earliest data sheet I can find is Western Electric 421a C 1953
 I believe Western Electric developed the tube but only saw potential as an industrial power regulator so passed on the design to Chatham who put it into production as the 2399
 When Tung-Sol merged with Chatham someone recognized the potential of the tube in audio and the 5998 , began basically a higher quality build of the 2399
 Back at Western Electric someone spots the 5998 in the Tung-Sol catalog and checks it out only to find Western Electric still "own" the design
 Not wanting to miss out Western Electric commission Tung-Sol/Chatham to manufacture a premium quality version the 421a as per the original 1950's design


----------



## gibosi

According to the Radio Museum site, the first mention of the 5998 was in the Electron Tube Registration List in 1951. And the first mention of the WE 421A is in a Western Electric catalog in 1948.
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_5998.html
  
 So it is certainly very possible that Western Electric designed and developed this tube and contracted with Chatham to manufacture it. However, there is absolutely nothing to support the notion that this tube ever appeared on the Electron Tube Registration List as a 2399. I still believe that this was an unknown company's inventory number for the 5998. If you examine a 2399, you will often see "No. 3002399" printed in small text on the base. So again, available source documents support the existence of only two versions of this tube: the WE 421A and the 5998.
  
 Tung-Sol acquired Chatham on May 20, 1957, that is, 5721, the 21st week of 1957. I have three 2399s. dated 5733, 5817 and 5822, and all have copper grid posts. I have a fourth "2399", dated 5724, with both 5998 and 3002399 printed on the base, and this tube has steel grid posts. And I also have a Tung-Sol 5998 dated 5725, one week later, with steel grid posts.
  
 And therefore, based on my admittedly rather small collection, I have to assume that the 2399 is electrically identical to a 5998. On the other hand, the 421A is, in fact, a separate and different tube per the data sheets.


----------



## 2359glenn

dogmatrix said:


> My 2399/5998/421a theory
> I only have hearsay evidence from an amp designer and the fact that the earliest data sheet I can find is Western Electric 421a C 1953
> I believe Western Electric developed the tube but only saw potential as an industrial power regulator so passed on the design to Chatham who put it into production as the 2399
> When Tung-Sol merged with Chatham someone recognized the potential of the tube in audio and the 5998 , began basically a higher quality build of the 2399
> ...


 

 I don't think when any of these tubes when being manufactured were intended for audio.
 All are series pass tubes for voltage regulators.  Now they are being used for audio low impedance for OTL amps.


----------



## adeadcrab

Or get a La Figaro 339 OTL amplifier if you want to use 32 ohm Grados


----------



## GrindingThud

Nice, thanks!


dogmatrix said:


> I believe you are correct , direct coupled with ac heaters . The output socket is the one on the right in the first picture
> "Sanguine" internals amp on the left , power supply on the right


----------



## attmci

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19570516&id=1r8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5ZkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5136,824720&hl=en
  
 Have a 5998 :322-537-3


----------



## Skylab

2359glenn said:


> I don't think when any of these tubes when being manufactured were intended for audio.
> All are series pass tubes for voltage regulators.  Now they are being used for audio low impedance for OTL amps.




This much is an undeniable fact. The 5998 was NOT designed as an audio tube.


----------



## Beefy

gibosi said:


> On the other hand, the 421A is, in fact, a separate and different tube per the data sheets.


 
  
 Unless new info has come out since I was last in this thread, it is much more likely that the 421A was simply cherry-picked for high mu.


----------



## gibosi

beefy said:


> Unless new info has come out since I was last in this thread, it is much more likely that the 421A was simply cherry-picked for high mu.


 
  
 To my knowledge, all 421A have bottom getters. And very rarely, 5998s appear with bottom getters. So I would suggest that these bottom getter tubes were explicitly designed to achieve a transconductance of 20,000 micromhos, or roughly 1.5 times that of a 5998 (14,000 micromhos).
  
 http://www.westernelectric.com/spec_sheets/421A.pdf
  
 http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/5/5998.pdf
  
 And those that failed this test, were simply relabeled as 5998, as long as they were at least 14,000 micromhos.
  
 Again, the 421A and the 5998 have different specs, primarily the transconductance figure. Now the real question is, all else being equal, does increasing the transconductance by a factor of 1.5 translate into a sonic difference?
  
 I would love to get my hands on two bottom getter tubes, manufactured at the same time, one a 421A, with a transconductance of at least 20,000 and the other, a reject, labeled as a 5998, with a transconductance less than 20,000 but more than 14,000....


----------



## Beefy

gibosi said:


> To my knowledge, all 421A have bottom getters. And very rarely, 5998s appear with bottom getters. So I would suggest that these bottom getter tubes were explicitly designed to achieve a transconductance of 20,000 micromhos, or roughly 1.5 times that of a 5998 (14,000 micromhos).


 
  
 Getter location has little to nothing to do with transconductance.
  
 And FWIW, I have two Cetron 5998 sitting right in front of me that have bottom getters.


----------



## gibosi

beefy said:


> Getter location has little to nothing to do with transconductance.
> 
> And FWIW, I have two Cetron 5998 sitting right in front of me that have bottom getters.


 
  
 I suggest that you reread what I wrote above.....
  
 I never wrote that getter position had anything to do with transconductance. What I said is that every 421A I have seen has bottom getters. This may have been simply due to an agreement between Tung-Sol/Chatham and Western Electric in order to make it easy to differentiate 421A and 5998 by sight. But this is just a WAG on my part.
  
 And I also wrote that there exist 5998 with bottom getters. And my conjecture is that these tubes were intended to be 421A, but didn't meet the 421A spec. And instead of discarding them, they were simply relabeled as 5998.
  
 But again,  I freely admit that this is all conjecture on my part. I am simply trying to come up with a coherent explanation that makes sense to me....


----------



## Beefy

gibosi said:


> But again,  I freely admit that this is all conjecture on my part. I am simply trying to come up with a coherent explanation that makes sense to me....


 
  
 The 421A being a hand picked 5998 _doesn't_ make sense?


----------



## gibosi

beefy said:


> The 421A being a hand picked 5998 _doesn't_ make sense?


 
  
 It doesn't explain why all 421A have bottom getters and nearly all 5998s have top getters (and side and top getters later). It would make sense if the construction was identical.
  
 For example, all the C3g (a tube commonly used as a driver in 300B amps) that came off the Siemens assembly line were measured. And those whose transconductance exceeded the minimum spec by a certain amount, 10% I seem to remember, were labeled C3g/s. To my mind, this is cherry picking. One cannot tell the difference visually, only through measurement.


----------



## TonyNewman

gibosi said:


> It doesn't explain why all 421A have bottom getters and nearly all 5998s have top getters (and side and top getters later). It would make sense if the construction was identical.
> 
> For example, all the C3g (a tube commonly used as a driver in 300B amps) that came off the Siemens assembly line were measured. And those whose transconductance exceeded the minimum spec by a certain amount, 10% I seem to remember, were labeled C3g/s. To my mind, this is cherry picking. One cannot tell the difference visually, only through measurement.


 
  
 Lorenz and Telefunken aslo. Some are marked on the tube stamp (Lorenz) others just on the box.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Quick question (may be a stupid one):  I received a sylvania 6080 through the post today, when I pulled it out the box and unwrapped the inner paper there were loads of little brown flecks inside the paper.  I wasn't sure what it was at first but now I see that theres a small band of something between where the glass meets the base and this has obviously become very brittle and started to disintegrate.  
  
 The base is currently not loose at all.  Is this anything to worry about or just common for tubes of this age?    It has a bit of a rattle but I do have other valves that have a slight rattle that are fine.


----------



## Puzzles

jeb listens said:


> Quick question (may be a stupid one):  I received a sylvania 6080 through the post today, when I pulled it out the box and unwrapped the inner paper there were loads of little brown flecks inside the paper.  I wasn't sure what it was at first but now I see that theres a small band of something between where the glass meets the base and this has obviously become very brittle and started to disintegrate.
> 
> The base is currently not loose at all.  Is this anything to worry about or just common for tubes of this age?    It has a bit of a rattle but I do have other valves that have a slight rattle that are fine.


 
  
 That brown stuff is the glue-soaked underpant that attaches the base to the bulb. In some tubes, it goes a little higher than the base itself. And it is normal that it crumbles off. 
 The rattling is no problem. But you will probably hear it through your headphones. IME, most Sylvania 6080's from that age are noisy. Yours has a steel grid instead of the usual copper grid which indicates that it was made in the late 70's or in the 80's. Of that type, I have none that is not noisy.


----------



## Jeb Listens

puzzles said:


> That brown stuff is the glue-soaked underpant that attaches the base to the bulb....


 
  
 Puzzles! - thank you educating me about the glue-soaked underpants situation.  Makes perfect sense now.   
  
 That's a shame about the general Sylvania noise situation.  That first picture didn't really capture the correct colour of the grid posts (or at least the part I think you are referring to?) because they are indeed copper.   
  
 I've been running the tube today for a few hours - and _so far_ i'm not having a problem with any noise.  During the first few minutes while it was warming up I heard a couple of *pings* but once up to temperature i've not heard anything untoward.  
  
 I'm using in a Bottlehead Crack.  This is the first tube i've rolled in.  The stock tube was a GE 6080.     The Sylvanias don't have a code so I guess the only way to date these things is by internal construction?  It's just labelled Sylvania 6080,  no WB or WC variant. 
  
  
  

  
  
  
 Jeb.


----------



## mordy

HI TN,
  
 I have a pair of Siemens C3gS. The box is stamped as such, and there is a hand written S on the tube. I am not aware that the Lorenz and Telefunken C3g tubes had S versions.
  
 On the Little Dot tube rolling thread somebody took off the metal shield from the Lorenz tubes and determined that they had a different internal construction than the Siemens tubes. It thus seems that Lorenz made their own C3g tubes.
  
 I have not been able to find out if Telefunken made their own C3g tubes or if they were relabeled.
  
 There is also a British STM tube with similar specs but a different pinout.
  
 As far as I am concerned, the C3g is a top tier  driver tube.
  
  
 Hi Jeb L,
  
 I have several Sylvania 6080 tubes, with and without copper rods, and with and without the fabric band at the bottom of the glass. None of my tubes are noisy, but maybe I should clarify that.
  
 All the tubes I have emit a hum when I turn up the volume all the way - this I can only do without playing music, because it would be way too loud to listen to. At normal to loud listening levels I rarely, if ever, hear a hum.
  
 On some of the tubes with the fabric band the material has chipped, but it does not seem to make any difference.
  
 The 6080 versions are the earliest versions. As far as I can tell, the picture of your tube shows a letter date code, and some of my tubes have such lettering as well, but I have not been able to decipher what it stands for. LOL - I have a 12AU7 Sylvania tube with the date code XYZ....


----------



## TonyNewman

mordy said:


> HI TN,
> 
> I have a pair of Siemens C3gS. The box is stamped as such, and there is a hand written S on the tube. I am not aware that the Lorenz and Telefunken C3g tubes had S versions.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Lorenz has the S stamped into the metal casing - I'll post a pic this evening. Telefunkens have an 'S' on the box (I could have that the wrong way around - will confirm tonight).
  
 I tried to remove the casing from a Seimens C3G some weeks ago. That ended badly for the tube, so I won't be trying that again.
  
 C3G is the most stunningly transparent driver I have ever heard. Dynamics, extension, clarity - if there is another driver that does all this as well as the C3G I am yet to hear it. Unfortunately my WA5 doesn't like them (using the Glenn adapters). This is a real pity as they are a wonderous tube. I will have to wait for my 300B Glenn amp to experience the full joy of C3Gs driving 300Bs.


----------



## Jeb Listens

mordy said:


> Hi Jeb L,
> 
> I have several Sylvania 6080 tubes, with and without copper rods, and with and without the fabric band at the bottom of the glass. None of my tubes are noisy, but maybe I should clarify that.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Mordy - thanks - I'm quite enjoying the Sylvania 6080 so far!   I did not realise that those three letters could be the date code.  I was looking for something on the base or acid-etched in the glass.  Next to the label it just reads "EAU".    Some googling hasn't turned up too much so far for the three-letter system.  I always like to try and find out the approx age of my tubes  so I'll try and do a bit more looking into construction changes over the years.  
  
 I'm a big fan of the sylvania 12AU7 variant, especially the 5814 which is one of my favourite budget tubes   I wanted to try the 6080 - brand loyalty!


----------



## mordy

Hi TonyNewman,
  
 As I personally found out, the C3g is a very fragile tube, and it cannot be rolled like any other tube, because the glass will break. You cannot rock it back and forth like other tubes when removing it; the only way is to take a small flat blade screwdriver and gently pry up the tube in small increments going around the tube base. Then gently pull straight up; likewise push straight down to insert it.
  
 One theory is that to withstand high underwater pressures (these tubes were developed to amplify the signal in transatlantic telephone cables) the glass was tempered and thus brittle.
  
 I only have the Siemens tubes - how would you characterize the differences in sound between the Lorenz, Telefunken and Siemens tubes?
  
 Mikelap on the Little Dot thread used a Dremel tool to file down the aluminum housing near the base to remove the casing with good results.
  
 Here is a picture that I found on the internet of the C3g tube - got to be one of the nicest tube pictures out there:
  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 (image missing)
  
  
  
 Cheers,


----------



## 3083joe

tonynewman said:


> The Lorenz has the S stamped into the metal casing - I'll post a pic this evening. Telefunkens have an 'S' on the box (I could have that the wrong way around - will confirm tonight).
> 
> I tried to remove the casing from a Seimens C3G some weeks ago. That ended badly for the tube, so I won't be trying that again.
> 
> C3G is the most stunningly transparent driver I have ever heard. Dynamics, extension, clarity - if there is another driver that does all this as well as the C3G I am yet to hear it. Unfortunately my WA5 doesn't like them (using the Glenn adapters). This is a real pity as they are a wonderous tube. I will have to wait for my 300B Glenn amp to experience the full joy of C3Gs driving 300Bs.



Do they only work on 300b amps or can they work with wa22 and adapter?


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Do they only work on 300b amps or can they work with wa22 and adapter?


 

 They can't work on the WA22. I was told a few months ago.
  
 Actually I was kinda happy about that. I didn't want even more tubes.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> They can't work on the WA22. I was told a few months ago.
> 
> Actually I was kinda happy about that. I didn't want even more tubes.



Thanks and good point


----------



## TonyNewman

3083joe said:


> Do they only work on 300b amps or can they work with wa22 and adapter?


 
  
 EDIT - answered above. No on the WA22.


----------



## mordy

I tried to put up a very nice picture of a C3g tube that I found the internet, but was not able to post  it- maybe too high resolution. Somehow, it found it's way into the photo gallery on the right side of this page. Please double click on that colorful picture for a full view of regular and beryllium tube glow in a C3g tube without the aluminum cover  - sensational.
  
 I am using these C3gS tubes in the Elise in place of 6SN7 drivers with special custom made adapters. The results are spectacular together with the Chatham 6AS7G power tubes.


----------



## TonyNewman

Both the Lorenz and Telefunken are marked on the box and the tube itself.


----------



## gibosi

I am not sure, but from the rather shiny black paint, I suspect that both of the above C3g were manufactured by Siemens. My Lorenz have a rather flat finish and is embossed rather than silkscreened. Note the small hand-painted "s" on the Siemens, on the left.
  

  

  

  
 To all those hoping for something about 6AS7, sorry......


----------



## Mechans1

So what is this tube C3g replacing ? What is the adapter, and where do you get one?


----------



## TonyNewman

mechans1 said:


> So what is this tube C3g replacing ? What is the adapter, and where do you get one?


 
  
 1) Replaces 6SN7/6F8G style drivers.
 2) A special unit made by Glenn - I think it might be WA5 only, but I'm not sure about that.
 3) Ask Glenn (PM him).


----------



## Mechans1

tonynewman said:


> 1) Replaces 6SN7/6F8G style drivers.
> 2) A special unit made by Glenn - I think it might be WA5 only, but I'm not sure about that.
> 3) Ask Glenn (PM him).


 

 I don't need any more drivers but your rapturous description is hard to resist.  One small problem is that I don't know who "Glenn" is.  Could you tell me? Thanks-Steve


----------



## adeadcrab

mechans1 said:


> I don't need any more drivers but your rapturous description is hard to resist.  One small problem is that I don't know who "Glenn" is.  Could you tell me? Thanks-Steve


 


 Why, he's Glenn of course. Duh.


----------



## adeadcrab

Get with it Steve


----------



## TonyNewman

Maker of adapters (the best IMHO) and custom tube amps.
  
 2359Glenn is the user name in HeadFi. Glenn has a thread for discussing his wares. That's a good place to start.
  
LINK
  
 Some pics of a Glenn 300B amp with C3G drivers and PY500 rectifiers.
  
 Glenn is making me a similar amp to this (hopefully soon).
  

  

  
 A couple of words of caution...
  
 1) C3Gs are not suitable for all amps. They gave a tonally bad result for me in my WA5 (but were otherwise stunning). The problem is with my amp, not the tubes.
  
 2) If your Woo amp is still under warranty you might want to check with the Woo folks first - they might, or might not, void the warranty if you use C3Gs.


----------



## whirlwind

The C3g works in gibosi OTL amp from Glenn and Glenn is making my OTL amp so it can use them also.


----------



## Mechans1

tonynewman said:


> Maker of adapters (the best IMHO) and custom tube amps.
> 
> 2359Glenn is the user name in HeadFi. Glenn has a thread for discussing his wares. That's a good place to start.
> 
> ...


 

 I want to thank you for giving me the direction, I really haven't figured out yet how to just take a snip from another post.  I thought I knew but don't.  I have a previously well regarded HP amp which is OTL 6080,6AS7G output with 6SN7 driver.  It was made by a guy who is probably in jail at this point.  I also own a pre amp for a  speaker system which uses 6SN7s as the  gain elements.  Not entirely sure what else they do but are not rectifiers in my model (nor would 6SN7 ever be to my understanding)


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> I tried to put up a very nice picture of a C3g tube that I found the internet, but was not able to post  it- maybe too high resolution. Somehow, it found it's way into the photo gallery on the right side of this page. Please double click on that colorful picture for a full view of regular and beryllium tube glow in a C3g tube without the aluminum cover  - sensational.


 
  
 This link should work:
  

http://www.head-fi.org/g/i/1435154/a/1001758/creator-gd-jpeg-v1-0-using-ijg-jpeg-v62-quality-80/sort/display_order/


----------



## 3083joe

whirlwind said:


> The C3g works in gibosi OTL amp from Glenn and Glenn is making my OTL amp so it can use them also.



Yeah, think I'm going that route with mine too


----------



## 3083joe

oskari said:


> This link should work:
> 
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/g/i/1435154/a/1001758/creator-gd-jpeg-v1-0-using-ijg-jpeg-v62-quality-80/sort/display_order/



Beautiful.


----------



## gibosi

whirlwind said:


> The C3g works in gibosi OTL amp from Glenn and Glenn is making my OTL amp so it can use them also.


 
  
 To clarify, Glenn has made adapters to allow one C3g to be plugged into one 6SN7 socket. Obviously, this adapter is for amps with two 6SN7 drivers. To obtain the best results in his own amps, he simply adds two more sockets with the necessary circuitry. So my amp has one 6SN7 socket and two C3g sockets, like so:
  

  

  
 Edit: added second picture


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> To clarify, Glenn has made adapters to allow one C3g to be plugged into one 6SN7 socket. Obviously, this adapter is for amps with two 6SN7 drivers. To obtain the best results in his own amps, he simply adds two more sockets with the necessary circuitry. So my amp has one 6SN7 socket and two C3g sockets, like so:


 

 Cant wait to get mine, going to be a while tho! 
 2 month wait


----------



## mordy

Hi TonyNewman,
  
 I only have the Siemens tubes. Could you comment on differences in sound between these three brands (Siemens, Telefunken, Lorenz)? Somebody took off the aluminum shield from a Lorenz C3g and discovered that it had a different construction than the Siemens tube, supporting the notion that they made their own tubes. Is the Telefunken a rebranded tube, or original production?
 Other 6.3V variants exist: There is a British STM tube with similar specs but different pin-out. In addition, Siemens made a C3o version, also with a different pin-out.
  
*Caution: *As I personally found out, the C3g is a very fragile tube, and it cannot be rolled like any other tube because the glass will break. You cannot rock it back and forth like all other tubes when removing it. The only way is to take a small flat blade screwdriver and gently pry and lift up the tube base gradually, going in a circle around the tube base. Then just pull straight up. To insert the tube, just push gently straight down. If you have a tight socket, especially a tight center hole, you may want to enlarge it a little with a needle nose pliers or similar.
  
 One theory why this tube is so brittle is because it was developed to amplify telephone signals in underwater transatlantic cables. The glass had to be tempered to withstand the underwater pressures.
  
 The aluminum casing must have a function, but if you want to remove it, Mikelap on the Little Dot thread used a Dremel tool to file down the bottom edge to easily take off the shield.


----------



## mordy

Thanks Oskari for providing the link. I had saved the picture to my PC, but when I tried to post it it did not work.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > The C3g works in gibosi OTL amp from Glenn and Glenn is making my OTL amp so it can use them also.
> ...


 
 Yep, that is how mine is going to be also, gibosi.


----------



## TonyNewman

mordy said:


> Hi TonyNewman,
> 
> I only have the Siemens tubes. Could you comment on differences in sound between these three brands (Siemens, Telefunken, Lorenz)? Somebody took off the aluminum shield from a Lorenz C3g and discovered that it had a different construction than the Siemens tube, supporting the notion that they made their own tubes. Is the Telefunken a rebranded tube, or original production?
> Other 6.3V variants exist: There is a British STM tube with similar specs but different pin-out. In addition, Siemens made a C3o version, also with a different pin-out.
> ...


 
  
 I no longer use the C3Gs in my WA5 as I had some issues (I think related to a previous amp failure). So I can't say much until I get my Glenn amp later in the year.
  
 I am told that the Lorenz has slightly more warmth than the others, but I cannot say myself.
  
 After breaking one Siemens tube in a ham-fisted attempt to remove the cover I am now cured of trying to do so again. These tubes are far to precious to me to risk anymore of them.


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi TonyNewman,
> 
> I only have the Siemens tubes. Could you comment on differences in sound between these three brands (Siemens, Telefunken, Lorenz)? Somebody took off the aluminum shield from a Lorenz C3g and discovered that it had a different construction than the Siemens tube, supporting the notion that they made their own tubes. Is the Telefunken a rebranded tube, or original production?
> Other 6.3V variants exist: There is a British STM tube with similar specs but different pin-out. In addition, Siemens made a C3o version, also with a different pin-out.
> ...


 
 I removed casing, because has mordy stated while removing tube from adapter  tube cracked and wanted to see what happened


----------



## Carlitos

it's ok to revive an 6080wb or 7236 by turning the variac up a lil bit?


----------



## bocosb

I got a Mullard 6080 from Langrex, it's marked cv2984 from 1975, is there a better version to get or is this as good as it gets? I didnt had the chance to listen to it since it arrived when i was leaving town


----------



## TonyNewman

Lovely pics. I know nothing about 6080 tubes, but I love those pics.
  
 Any photography tips or tricks you want to share? I need all the help I can get - my pics invariably look like arse


----------



## bocosb

@TonyNewman: if you are refering to my pics they are taken with my phone.. i dont see anything special to them tho - except bad white balance from the fluorescent light in the hotel


----------



## TonyNewman

mikelap said:


> I removed casing, because has mordy stated while removing tube from adapter  tube cracked and wanted to see what happened


 
  
 Sorted out my C3G issue - it was the crazy hot 4.2V RMS output from my Vega DAC. This blew a C3G and I am 99% sure was responsible for my blown caps as well. Have now wound back my Vega digital volume to 60 (from 100) - that should put me back into the 'normal' range of around 2.5V RMS.
  
 Now running my Lorenz C3G/s tubes in the WA5 with the Taks - sound is fantastic. Frankly, the 6C8G TS RPs I was using are left in the dust by the C3G. This is a STUNNING tube.
  
 I am a ham-fisted neanderthal - my one attempt at removing the cap on C3G resulted in a wrecked tube. Will try again with a metal file on the edge crimping the steel cap on, as per above. This will probably end badly, but I have a metric buttload of Siemens C3Gs, so screw it.


----------



## TonyNewman

bocosb said:


> @TonyNewman: if you are refering to my pics they are taken with my phone.. i dont see anything special to them tho - except bad white balance from the fluorescent light in the hotel


 
  
 I will try more light and no flash. Can't do any worse than I have been


----------



## TonyNewman

Well that was fun. What a beautiful set of innards the C3G has:
  

  
  
 Best of all - tube still works!!!
  

  
 I'm liking this!!


----------



## 3083joe

bocosb said:


> I got a Mullard 6080 from Langrex, it's marked cv2984 from 1975, is there a better version to get or is this as good as it gets? I didnt had the chance to listen to it since it arrived when i was leaving town



I personally haven't listen tho these 6080s have the grqphite ts ones. But I think Badas likes them but had noise issues with them. Been thinking of trying them.


----------



## MIKELAP

tonynewman said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > I removed casing, because has mordy stated while removing tube from adapter  tube cracked and wanted to see what happened
> ...


 

 I have to use the C3G's with adapters and as mordy suggested you never wiggle this tube when removing or inserting it or it will probably break since i use adapters for my part i always leave the tubes on there adapters .or pry them off with a small flat screwdriver With the file you cant messup the cap is alluminum so its a very soft material and its not thick


----------



## mordy

Hi TN,
  
 Does it light up like this?
  




  
 In any case, we know that the Lorenz is different than than the Siemens C3g tube, but I have not found out if Telefunken made their own tubes or used re-branded Siemens tubes.
 Would it be possible for you to remove the shield and let us know if it is a different tube?
  
 For some reason the Telefunken seem higher priced than the others.


----------



## gibosi

As this is the 6AS7 thread, I fear that there are way too many postings regarding the C3g here....   Oh well....
  
 This posting shows a "naked" Lorenz (flat-black embossed metal can) and a "naked" Siemens (shiny-black silk screened can).
  
 The very different construction (and sound) suggests to me different factories.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/9510#post_11496566


----------



## aldovan

Friends
  
 This Philips 6080 is a Miniwatt made ?
  

  
 Thanks
  
 Aldovan


----------



## Puzzles

Quote:


aldovan said:


> Friends
> 
> This Philips 6080 is a Miniwatt made ?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know where you got them! I (probably) got exactly the same tubes but since they were not Mullard made as I expected, I returned them. These Philips tubes are not made by Philips nor Mullard, but by RCA. Still nice tubes. 
  
  


gibosi said:


> As this is the 6AS7 thread, I fear that there are way too many postings regarding the C3g here....   Oh well....
> 
> This posting shows a "naked" Lorenz (flat-black embossed metal can) and a "naked" Siemens (shiny-black silk screened can).
> 
> ...


 
  
 There's so much stuff about the c3g summing up in quite a few more or less unrelated threads, it deserves to get its own thread.


----------



## aldovan

Thanks ! For me is american made, too.
  
 Aldovan


----------



## gibosi

When you see a Philips/Mullard 6080 for sale, ask the vendor to provide the Philips production code. And a picture would be better yet.
  
 The first line should read AJ0 or AJ1. AJ = 6080 and the following number is the revision number.  The second line should read R plus a number, a letter and maybe another number. R = Mullard's Mitcham factory. The following number indicates the last digit of the year of manufacture. The following letter is the month, and in later tubes, the last number is the week.
  
 A key to deciphering "PHILIPS FACTORY VALVE CODES" can be found here:
  
 http://tubedata.milbert.com/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf
  
 Below, to the left, AJ0 R7J, manufactured in October, 1957. And to the right, the code is a bit smudged, but it reads AJ1 R6D1, the first week of April, 1966.


----------



## TonyNewman

gibosi said:


> As this is the 6AS7 thread, I fear that there are way too many postings regarding the C3g here....   Oh well....
> 
> This posting shows a "naked" Lorenz (flat-black embossed metal can) and a "naked" Siemens (shiny-black silk screened can).
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think there must have been some re-branding happening with C3Gs as I have a stripped Lorenz and a stripped Siemens - they are utterly indistinguishable on the internals. One set has a slight flattening of the glass on the top - apart from that they are entirely the same.


----------



## Cyberia Knight

I have 2 types of Mullard 6080 valves.
  
 The first 2 pictures are of a CV2984 with a twin halo design. The third picture is very similar to the one in "bocosb post #2486" which is a single halo design.
  
 The CV2984 is the best sounding power valve I have to my ears. I usually drive it with Tung-Sol 6SJ7GT diamond punched mesh plates.
  
 My amp is a DarkVoice 337 and My cans are Sennheiser HD650
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

tonynewman said:


> I think there must have been some re-branding happening with C3Gs as I have a stripped Lorenz and a stripped Siemens - they are utterly indistinguishable on the internals. One set has a slight flattening of the glass on the top - apart from that they are entirely the same.


 
  
 In the 1950's and 60s, it appears that Lorenz, Telefunken and Siemens manufactured these tubes. However, it is my belief that by the 1970's only Siemens was manufacturing the C3g and these were often rebranded and sold by Valvo, Telefunken and Lorenz.
  
 From my experience, if it has a silkscreened shiny-black can, it is likely a 1970's era Siemens. My 1966 Lorenz has a flat-black embossed can, but I am not sure what a genuine Telefunken-made tube looks like. However, the fact that Telefunken published a data sheet for the C3g leads me to believe that they did in fact manufacture this tube. Manufacturers simply did not put out data sheets for tubes they did not make. Happy hunting! 
  
 http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/128/c/C3g.pdf


----------



## gibosi

cyberia knight said:


> I have 2 types of Mullard 6080 valves.
> 
> The first 2 pictures are of a CV2984 with a twin halo design. The third picture is very similar to the one in "bocosb post #2486" which is a single halo design.


 
  
 What are the production codes for these two tubes?


----------



## Cyberia Knight

gibosi said:


> What are the production codes for these two tubes?


 
  
 The first pair in the first 2 pictures are Mullard 6080 CV2984 marked AJ1 R0K3
  
 The second pair in the third picture are Mullard 6080 marked AJ1 R6F2


----------



## gibosi

cyberia knight said:


> The first pair in the first 2 pictures are Mullard 6080 CV2984 marked AJ1 R0K3
> 
> The second pair in the third picture are Mullard 6080 marked AJ1 R6F2


 
  
 AJ1 R0K3 = the third week of November, 1970. (The week digit was not used until after 1961, so not 1960.)
  
 AJ1 R6F2 =  the second week of June, 1966.
  
 What I find interesting is that even though the 1970's tubes have two getters and the 1966 tube has only one, the revision number didn't change. This suggests to me that other than number of getters, any other changes, if any, must have been very minor.


----------



## abvolt

bocosb said:


> I got a Mullard 6080 from Langrex, it's marked cv2984 from 1975, is there a better version to get or is this as good as it gets? I didnt had the chance to listen to it since it arrived when i was leaving town


 
  Those are great sounding tubes I have 4 sets, there some of the best 6080's if not the best a very very close second would be early tung sol / chatham 6080's..


----------



## hypnos1

tonynewman said:


> I think there must have been some re-branding happening with C3Gs as I have a stripped Lorenz and a stripped Siemens - they are utterly indistinguishable on the internals. One set has a slight flattening of the glass on the top - apart from that they are entirely the same.


 
  
 Despite gibosi's pertinent point, I just had to chime in here...eventually - sorry!
  
 Having begun the C3g craze a long while ago now on the LittleDot Tube Rolling Guide Thread, I personally found the slightly flattened top to always belong to the Siemens 'S' tube, but of course _nothing_ is 100% cut and dried in this tube game, is it?!


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> AJ1 R0K3 = the third week of November, 1970. (The week digit was not used until after 1961, so not 1960.)


 
  
 I would certainly agree. But. That SB date. Feb 61. It disagrees. This must be a late 1960 Mitcham tube with a week digit!


----------



## TonyNewman

hypnos1 said:


> Despite gibosi's pertinent point, I just had to chime in here...eventually - sorry!
> 
> Having begun the C3g craze a long while ago now on the LittleDot Tube Rolling Guide Thread, I personally found the slightly flattened top to always belong to the Siemens 'S' tube, but of course _nothing_ is 100% cut and dried in this tube game, is it?!


 
  
 Absolutely correct in this case. These tubes are rebranded Siemens C3G/s labelled as Lorenz. I have stripped a set of standard Siemens C3G and they have a fully rounded glass envelope - no flat spot on top.


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> I would certainly agree. But. That SB date. Feb 61. It disagrees. This must be a late 1960 Mitcham tube with a week digit!


 
  
 Oh, I missed the SB date! So yes indeed, if both of those tubes have the SB date, then they were manufactured in November 1960!


----------



## gibosi

tonynewman said:


> Absolutely correct in this case. These tubes are rebranded Siemens C3G/s labelled as Lorenz. I have stripped a set of standard Siemens C3G and they have a fully rounded glass envelope - no flat spot on top.


 
  
 On the other hand, everything I have read indicates that when these tubes were tested at the factory, those with a transconductance equal to or higher than 105% of the minimum specification (14000 µmhos) were marked with the suffix /s. And if so, surely there must be C3g out there, no suffix /s, with flattened tops. A more likely explanation, I believe, is that the shape of the top is likely due to a different year of manufacture. But of course, we need more data to be sure.....
  
 Edit: This evening, I checked my own collection and discovered that I have a pair of regular C3g with flat spots on top. So again, it is my belief that the only difference between regular C3g and C3g/s is the measured transconductance.


----------



## aldovan

Friends
  
 Actually I use GE 6080 in my amplifier and this tube have a strong bass and nice mids and I like it.
 But a friend have for sale a pair of Chatam 6080 nickel plates and one pair of Chatam 6080WB gtaphite plates.
 This tubes sound best of the GE ? The Chatam is Tungsol made ?
  
 Thanks
  
 Aldovan


----------



## ru4music

aldovan said:


> Friends
> 
> Actually I use GE 6080 in my amplifier and this tube have a strong bass and nice mids and I like it.
> But a friend have for sale a pair of Chatam 6080 nickel plates and one pair of Chatam 6080WB gtaphite plates.
> ...


 

 I have not tried the Chatham 6080 nickel plate, but the Chatham 6080WB graphite is generally considered to be one of the best 6080 tubes by a majority of listeners (myself included.)  The Chatham 6080WB graphite is most often the exact same as the Tung Sol graphite, and both of these tubes were built by Bendix and relabeled.  I think the graphite 6080 will give you more of what you like (from what you mentioned above.)  FWIW - I currently own 2 pairs of the TS and 1 pair of the Bendix 6080 graphite tubes.


----------



## aldovan

Thanks for the information.
 Them Bendix made the Chatam, Tungsol and Raytheon Graphite plates ?
 Why Bendix is more espensive ?
  
 Aldovan


----------



## ru4music

aldovan said:


> Thanks for the information.
> Them Bendix made the Chatam, Tungsol and Raytheon Graphite plates ?
> Why Bendix is more espensive ?
> 
> Aldovan


 
 Yes, Bendix made them all.
  
 The Bendix construction is a little different (all brands still very high quality) and the Bendix slotted plate version is sometimes said to sound a little better.  There really shouldn't be that much of a difference in sound quality between any of them.  Also, Bendix is considered (and are) some of the best tubes ever produced so their label is worth more.


----------



## gibosi

aldovan said:


> Thanks for the information.
> Them Bendix made the Chatam, Tungsol and Raytheon Graphite plates ?
> Why Bendix is more espensive ?


 
  
 Because many people do not realize that a Bendix-made tube rebranded as a Chatham, Tung-Sol, Raytheon, or other brand, is identical to one carrying the Bendix brand. But again, these graphite tubes were all made in the same Bendix factory and the brand painted on the tube does not matter at all.


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 Remember seeing a post from you about another Bendix rebranded tube that you got for a song (under $10) - what was the label?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Remember seeing a post from you about another Bendix rebranded tube that you got for a song (under $10) - what was the label?


 
  
 Electronic Enterprises Inc, a completely unknown brand to me. But of course, the graphite plates and ceramic spacers tell you all you need to know. These tubes were manufactured by Bendix and I bought three for about $7 each.


----------



## ru4music

gibosi said:


> Electronic Enterprises Inc, a completely unknown brand to me. But of course, the graphite plates and ceramic spacers tell you all you need to know. These tubes were manufactured by Bendix and I bought three for about $7 each.


 

 Nice score!


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Electronic Enterprises Inc, a completely unknown brand to me. But of course, the graphite plates and ceramic spacers tell you all you need to know. These tubes were manufactured by Bendix and I bought three for about $7 each.




I hate you.


----------



## adeadcrab

shaffer said:


> I hate you.


----------



## attmci

The Bendix slotted 6080wb sounds much better than non-slotted. Don't ask me why.


----------



## 3083joe

attmci said:


> The Bendix slotted 6080wb sounds much better than non-slotted. Don't ask me why.


 

 Can you post pic of the two?


----------



## 3083joe

attmci said:


> The Bendix slotted 6080wb sounds much better than non-slotted. Don't ask me why.


 

 Oh is this the difference?


----------



## SonicTrance

3083joe said:


> Oh is this the difference?


 
 Correct, thats the difference. Haven't heard the tubes though, so I can't comment on how they sound


----------



## gibosi

There appear to be a number of small construction differences among the slotted Bendix 6080. I have three pairs, all apparently manufactured in 1962, each with slightly different construction, but to my ears, the same sound.
  
 To the left, dated 230, three ceramic spacers. To the right, dated 244, two ceramic spacers and a top mica spacer. Also, the sheet metal just under the top spacer is somewhat different between these two versions.
  

  
 Below, dated 235, three ceramic spacers, but the vertical edges of the graphite plane containing the slot are beveled, whereas the two above have sharp, right-angled edges.
  

  
 And for comparison purposes, a solid Bendix, relabeled as a Chatham JAN, dated 6117. Note that the ceramic spacers have a slightly purplish hue and the graphite plates have round, indistinct angles compared to the sharp angles of the slotted versions.


----------



## 3083joe

Interesting.


----------



## attmci

From:  [u][color=rgb(0, 102, 204)]kscwuzhere[/color][/u]
  
  I enjoy the bendix 6080wb slotted cross columns the best. They outperformed the 5998, the we421a and the gec6as7g which i all previously owned and got rid of once I heard the Bendix.


----------



## 3083joe

attmci said:


> From:  [U][COLOR=0066CC]kscwuzhere[/COLOR][/U]
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoy the bendix 6080wb slotted cross columns the best. They outperformed the 5998, the we421a and the gec6as7g which i all previously owned and got rid of once I heard the Bendix.



If anyone has a pair of slotted they would sell I'd love to try them. 
Thanks. ☺️


----------



## adeadcrab

3083joe said:


> If anyone has a pair of slotted they would sell I'd love to try them.
> Thanks. ☺️


 
 check for bendix 6080 on ebay. a few listings up at the moment.


----------



## attmci

You need to buy the ones in the picture. They are not cheap.
  
 I just sold a solid, you know that. 
  
 I will keep my slotted ones.


----------



## 3083joe

adeadcrab said:


> check for bendix 6080 on ebay. a few listings up at the moment.



All are smooth/solid


----------



## aldovan

3083joe said:


> All are smooth/solid




Friends

Anyone know the Lewis Kauffman 6080 and 6AS7 ?

Aldovan


----------



## 3083joe

aldovan said:


> Friends
> 
> Anyone know the Lewis Kauffman 6080 and 6AS7 ?
> 
> Aldovan



???


----------



## aldovan

Friends
  
 What sound the best ?
 Mullard 6080 or Bendiz 6080WB ?
  
 Aldovan


----------



## 3083joe

aldovan said:


> Friends
> 
> What sound the best ?
> Mullard 6080 or Bendiz 6080WB ?
> ...


 

 I would say Bendix


----------



## Dogmatrix

aldovan said:


> Friends
> 
> What sound the best ?
> Mullard 6080 or Bendiz 6080WB ?
> ...


 

 I would also say Bendix but not by much and the Mullards warm up much quicker
 Personally I think GEC 6080 bests all 6080 type and they are easier to find than slotted Bendix


----------



## Mechans1

In reply to the Lewis and Kaufman tubes.  They were relabel-ers  using a variety of sources, if I  recall correctly. 
  
 with regard to the rare and exotic tubes such chanel Bendix and GEC tubes in general that leaves you with one realistic choice, the Mullards.  I like the Mullards so they have earned an almost permanent assignment in my desktop.  Obviously  I endorse them and they rate every highly.  They are just the music as it was intended as far as I am concerned.  If you have any space or ware withal to get some in your gear you should get them, it's that simple.  When you can find the Bendix or the GEC at a reasonable price, get those and add them to your collection.  That is the strategy I have decided to go with..


----------



## abvolt

aldovan said:


> Friends
> 
> What sound the best ?
> Mullard 6080 or Bendiz 6080WB ?
> ...


 
  
 It's all very subjective what one likes you may not I like the mullards..


----------



## 3083joe

abvolt said:


> It's all very subjective what one likes you may not I like the mullards..



True.


----------



## aldovan

Ok, I underestand.
 I have Sylvania 6080WC ECG, RCA 6080, Sylvania 6080, GE 6080, RCA 6AS7G and Thomsom 6080.
 In my amplifier the best is the cheap GE 6080. I do not like the RCA 6AS7G
 In your opinion, the Mullard will beat the GE ?
 And the GEC 6080 is superior ?


----------



## abvolt

The mullards sound better in a big way over the GE's to me at least. I've never heard the thomsom 6080's how are they? The GEC's are lots of $$ and as I'm a cheapskate can't comment on their sound but would sure like to try them.


----------



## Badas

aldovan said:


> Ok, I underestand.
> I have Sylvania 6080WC ECG, RCA 6080, Sylvania 6080, GE 6080, RCA 6AS7G and Thomsom 6080.
> In my amplifier the best is the cheap GE 6080. I do not like the RCA 6AS7G
> In your opinion, the Mullard will beat the GE ?
> And the GEC 6080 is superior ?


 

 So funny. I like the cheap GE's as well.
  
 I have the Mullard 6080 and it is very similar to the GE6AS7G in a 6080 bottle. The GE 6080 is a tiny bit behind the GE 6AS7G but very, very close.


----------



## aldovan

I have the GE 6080 and GE 6AS7GA with 6080 bottle. The Mullard is close this GE 6AS7GA?


----------



## Badas

aldovan said:


> I have the GE 6080 and GE 6AS7GA with 6080 bottle. The Mullard is close this GE 6AS7GA?


 

 I find it close. Mullard is a tad more full sounding and romantic.
  
 In saying that the power tubes have the least effect on my WA22.


----------



## UntilThen

Quote: 





cyberia knight said:


> I have 2 types of Mullard 6080 valves.
> 
> The first 2 pictures are of a CV2984 with a twin halo design. The third picture is very similar to the one in "bocosb post #2486" which is a single halo design.
> 
> ...


 
 Seeking some confirmation here for the photos above. I just bought a pair of these from Australia postage free and good price for the Elise amp I'll be getting. Hope they are ok. Thanks guys.


----------



## abvolt

untilthen said:


> Seeking some confirmation here for the photos above. I just bought a pair of these from Australia postage free and good price for the Elise amp I'll be getting. Hope they are ok. Thanks guys.


 
 I think there great I have 4 sets of the mullards, certainly among my favorite 6080's..


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't sure about CV2984 but on digging backwards in this thread I found that it's the UK designation for 6080. So I should be good to use it on my tube amp which accepts 6AS7G / 6080.


----------



## abvolt

Yes and I say you'll really like what you hear from the cv2984's I also have 2 pair labeled mullard 6080 their the same tube you have, enjoy..


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Thanks for the reply. I wasn't sure about CV2984 but on digging backwards in this thread I found that it's the UK designation for 6080. So I should be good to use it on my tube amp which accepts 6AS7G / 6080.




The tubes look pretty tasty, UT.


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> The tubes look pretty tasty, UT.


 

 Thanks Shaffer. That's my consolation for missing out on the 5998.


----------



## Dogmatrix

untilthen said:


> Thanks Shaffer. That's my consolation for missing out on the 5998.


 

 Don't worry I picked up a nice Chatham 5998 from an Oz seller for $50 six weeks back they pop up from time to time
 Congrats on the Mullards I was thinking about those myself , they sound very similar to the GEC 6080 in my amp
 From the pictures I think they were sold to the seller you bought them from by a guy in Cyprus who has quite a large stock of British tubes
 I purchased one GEC CV5008 (6080) and one Mullard CV2984 from him recently , both are fine tubes with no noise problems


----------



## thecrow

dogmatrix said:


> Don't worry I picked up a nice Chatham 5998 from an Oz seller for $50 six weeks back they pop up from time to time
> Congrats on the Mullards I was thinking about those myself , they sound very similar to the GEC 6080 in my amp
> From the pictures I think they were sold to the seller you bought them from by a guy in Cyprus who has quite a large stock of British tubes
> I purchased one GEC CV5008 (6080) and one Mullard CV2984 from him recently , both are fine tubes with no noise problems


Oz seller? eBay or somewhere else here for in oz?


----------



## UntilThen

I got mine from an eBay seller from Oz. I saw the similar pair from the seller from Cypress. $56 vs $70 a pair quite a difference. Both new as advertised. Plus I don't have to pay shipping. 
  
 GEC CV5008 (6080) ...haven't seen those before. Collector's item I think.
  
 Chatham 5998 for $50...congrats


----------



## Dogmatrix

thecrow said:


> Oz seller? eBay or somewhere else here for in oz?


 

 EBay calls himself mcchanson sells 5998 6as7g and 6520 regularly , ships out of Sydney
 Actually paid $49 plus $10 postage
  
@UntilThen 
 I think CV5008 is just the early common valve code GEC used before it changed to CV2984 but it was a lucky find in perfect condition in original box
 I noticed the background in the picture of the Mullards you bought is the same as the background in the pictures of the tubes I bought from Cyprus


----------



## Jeb Listens

@gibosi, @Oskari and fellow code-breakers
  
 Hi Guys, would you be able to help me out with a factory/date code for a Mullard CV2984 ?  I'm quite confused and seem to read some quite conflicting things or else I'm just not piecing in together correctly. 
  
 As you can probably see, etched in the glass is AJ1 R4A  - taking that as the code, I understand AJ1 is the type code and 
  
 R = Mitcham 
  
 4 = year - but which decade? although I understand no week code = pre '61  it just doesn't seem that old so did they revert back to just a 3 digit code later on?
  
 A = month, January
  
 KB/QDD I understand KB refers to testing spec/approval , and the second part would refer to the factory, but the only info I can find on that is that "QD" refers to English Electric Co. Stafford, While a singular "D" refers again to Mitcham. 
  
 On top of that, they came in a box (which I know doesn't often mean anything) with the date stamped 1975, and the seller advertised them as having a 1975 date code. You can probably see under where it says 6080 it has the code  7527, and I understand that later on in production a 4 digit  YY/WW code like this was used, so 27th week of '75
  
 So what's going on, please?    Is the etched code the manufacturing year (more likely 1974) and other one the Year it was printed  (1975) , and what does the "QDD" refer to? 
  
 Thank you in advance!! 
  
 Jeb.


----------



## thecrow

dogmatrix said:


> EBay calls himself mcchanson sells 5998 6as7g and 6520 regularly , ships out of Sydney
> Actually paid $49 plus $10 postage


thanks for the info. Somebody else put me on to his tube amp making. I didn't realise he sells tubes. 

Thanks


----------



## SonicTrance

jeb listens said:


> @gibosi, @Oskari and fellow code-breakers
> 
> Hi Guys, would you be able to help me out with a factory/date code for a Mullard CV2984 ?  I'm quite confused and seem to read some quite conflicting things or else I'm just not piecing in together correctly.
> 
> ...


 
 I also got some of those and though it doesn't ad up with no W number I believe they were made in jan 1974, just like you stated. And then boxed in 1975.


----------



## Oskari

jeb listens said:


> Is the etched code the manufacturing year (more likely 1974) and other one the Year it was printed (1975)


 
  
 That's the most likely explanation. The week digit is missing for some reason.
  
 QDD appears on these later Mitcham tubes. The information at http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm is based on 1964 documents (http://www.tubecollector.org/documents/k1001/). Something must have changed since then.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Mister-X, Oskari, 
  
 Thank you, very much appreciate your thoughts.  It's a handsome looking valve and sounds damn good too!


----------



## UntilThen

@jeb your making me excited. I'll be using 2 of those in the Elise when it comes. Mine's dated 1967 and the codes are different.


----------



## Jeb Listens

untilthen said:


> @jeb your making me excited. I'll be using 2 of those in the Elise when it comes. Mine's dated 1967 and the codes are different.


 

 Congrats UntilThen! I hope you like them in your amp.   I have generally had great experiences with Mullard-made tubes and whenever I see those classic brown paper cigar-rolls I know I'm usually in for a good time! 
  
 While I was listening to them earlier I watched this old video documentary about the production of vacuum tubes at Mullard's factory in Blackburn.  I found it totally fascinating to see how many of these valves we all love so much were actually produced - not least all the amazingly intricate factory machines (and people!) that made large scale production possible.  The narrator's voice-over is classic!


----------



## UntilThen

Ooh thanks for sharing the video. Will watch it now. I am in for a special early christmas treat. Elise (that's my new amp) will be arriving at the end of the month. I have a Darkvoice 336se atm. So new tubes new amp yes it will be a blast.


----------



## Dogmatrix

Thanks for the vid @Jeb Listens brings me back to my old school days when we were fed endless British documentaries that narrator is very familiar
  
 Some info for the GEC 6080 hunters , as mentioned earlier the GEC 6080 carries the code CV5008 it turns out somewhere around 60-61 this changes to CV8614
 So any serious hunters should add those codes to their search lists
 In my experience the best bargains come from deceased estate sales where the seller has no tube knowledge and simply lists the numbers on the boxes


----------



## 3083joe

jeb listens said:


> Congrats UntilThen! I hope you like them in your amp.   I have generally had great experiences with Mullard-made tubes and whenever I see those classic brown paper cigar-rolls I know I'm usually in for a good time!
> 
> While I was listening to them earlier I watched this old video documentary about the production of vacuum tubes at Mullard's factory in Blackburn.  I found it totally fascinating to see how many of these valves we all love so much were actually produced - not least all the amazingly intricate factory machines (and people!) that made large scale production possible.  The narrator's voice-over is classic!



Awesome. Thanks.


----------



## abvolt

That's cool Jeb I see you've got a mullard 6080 for your crack amp nice bet you'll like that one..


----------



## bocosb

My Mullard in the BHC.. great pairing, i like it more than the rest of my tubes (RCA, GE 6080 and russian 6as7g)


----------



## UntilThen

Wow great picture and sound too I bet. Can't wait for my Mullards to arrive.


----------



## abvolt

bocosb said:


> My Mullard in the BHC.. great pairing, i like it more than the rest of my tubes (RCA, GE 6080 and russian 6as7g)


 
  
 That is a great pic the mullards are some of my favorites also, If you get a chance try a chatham or tung sol 6080's their very nice as well..


----------



## aldovan

Friends

Anyone have the Bendix 6080WB datasheet ?

Thanks

Aldovan


----------



## coinmaster

Question. My amp uses 2 power tubes per channel. I enjoy mixing power tubes because I get the sonic benefits of both tubes.
  
 I've been told not to mix 5998 with 6080 and 6as7g because they bias differently. However I've seen sources on the internet that indicate the 6080 is the same as the 5998 and the 6as7g.
  
 What is the truth?


----------



## gibosi

coinmaster said:


> Question. My amp uses 2 power tubes per channel. I enjoy mixing power tubes because I get the sonic benefits of both tubes.
> 
> I've been told not to mix 5998 with 6080 and 6as7g because they bias differently. However I've seen sources on the internet that indicate the 6080 is the same as the 5998 and the 6as7g.


 
  
 It is true that the optimal bias for a 5998 is different than that for a 6080/6AS7. However, your amp will bias the 5998 and the 6080 identically. So it doesn't really matter if there is a 6AS7 in one socket and a 5998 in the other.
  
 And there is another difference between these tubes. The mu, or amplification factor, for the 6AS7 is 2.0 whereas it is 5.5 for the 5998, so the channel balance as well as the sonics may be different. All that said, if you like the sound, I would say go for it.


----------



## SonicTrance

coinmaster said:


> Question. My amp uses 2 power tubes per channel. I enjoy mixing power tubes because I get the sonic benefits of both tubes.
> 
> I've been told not to mix 5998 with 6080 and 6as7g because they bias differently. However I've seen sources on the internet that indicate the 6080 is the same as the 5998 and the 6as7g.
> 
> What is the truth?


 
 I'm no tube expert (far from it) but if you decide to mix 6AS7G/6080 with 5998, I think it'd be best to run the 5998's in one channel and the 6AS7G/6080's in the other. Not mix the two in the same channel like you've done with the 6080/6AS7G's. I don't know if the mk6 will bias the tubes correctly if you've one 6AS7G and one 5998 in the same channel.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> It is true that the optimal bias for a 5998 is different than that for a 6080/6AS7. *However, your amp will bias the 5998 and the 6080 identically. *So it doesn't really matter if there is a 6AS7 in one socket and a 5998 in the other.
> 
> And there is another difference between these tubes. The mu, or amplification factor, for the 6AS7 is 2.0 whereas it is 5.5 for the 5998, so the channel balance as well as the sonics may be different. All that said, if you like the sound, I would say go for it.




I don't think it would as the LD MK6 autobiases so it would not bias the 5998 and 6080/6AS7G the same way. The bias meters on the amp will read about 30mA for the 5998's and 60mA for 6080/6AS7G's


----------



## coinmaster

sonictrance said:


> I'm no tube expert (far from it) but if you decide to mix 6AS7G/6080 with 5998, I think it'd be best to run the 5998's in one channel and the 6AS7G/6080's in the other. Not mix the two in the same channel like you've done with the 6080/6AS7G's. I don't know if the mk6 will bias the tubes correctly if you've one 6AS7G and one 5998 in the same channel.


 
 Wouldn't that be pointless because each channel is L and R right? That would just make it sound different in each ear.


----------



## SonicTrance

coinmaster said:


> Wouldn't that be pointless because each channel is L and R right? That would just make it sound different in each ear.




Yes it would sound different in each ear. And yes, it would be kind of pointless. Perhaps someone else will shime in but all I can say is that I wouldn't mix them in the same channel (or at all for that matter)


----------



## gibosi

Still, having one 6AS7 and one 5998 handling each channel is a very intriguing idea. I suggest you contact Little Dot and see what they say....


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> Still, having one 6AS7 and one 5998 handling each channel is a very intriguing idea. I suggest you contact Little Dot and see what they say....


 
 I agree, intriguing indeed. But I wouldn't try it without confirmation that it's OK first, like you suggest.


----------



## Badas

Score.
  
 I asked Langrex to hunt me down a set of either GEC 6080 or 6AS7G.
  
 No GEC 6AS7G's however they found a mint set of GEC 6080's.
  
 So I have them being shipped over.
  
 It will be nice to test a better regarded power tube. I was hopeful of the Mullard 6080's. Just didn't work out in my amp.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Score.
> 
> I asked Langrex to hunt me down a set of either GEC 6080 or 6AS7G.
> 
> ...


 

 Awesome, Slotted or Regular?


----------



## abvolt

That sounds really cool *Badas* be sure and post some pics when you get them, I've been thinking about the GEC 6as7's if I can find a pair. I have so many inexpensive tubes that sound great I'd like to try  something in a whole different league..


----------



## adeadcrab

badas said:


> Score.
> 
> I asked Langrex to hunt me down a set of either GEC 6080 or 6AS7G.
> 
> ...




Get another amp dude


----------



## coinmaster

What do GEC 6080s sound like? I was under the impression they aren't anything special.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Awesome, Slotted or Regular?


 
  
 Not sure. I will post a pic when I receive them.


abvolt said:


> That sounds really cool *Badas* be sure and post some pics when you get them, I've been thinking about those same tubes also. I have soo many inexpensive tubes that sound great I'd like to try  something in a whole different league..


 
  
 Exactly. Really, really pleased with the GE 6AS7G. WA22 is sounding perfect. Just want to experiment with something a tad better. Mullard sounded fantastic but noisy. I have 6 Mullards and half were noisy. I should just roll them all until I find two quiet and then use.


adeadcrab said:


> Get another amp dude


 
  
 *cough* Glenn amp *cough* next year *cough* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


coinmaster said:


> What do GEC 6080s sound like? I was under the impression they aren't anything special.


 
  
 They are suppose to be nice and not far off the GEC 6AS7G. That will do me.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Not sure. I will post a pic when I receive them.
> 
> Exactly. Really, really pleased with the GE 6AS7G. WA22 is sounding perfect. Just want to experiment with something a tad better. Mullard sounded fantastic but noisy. I have 6 Mullards and half were noisy. I should just roll them all until I find two quiet and then use.
> 
> ...



Yeah. I've heard nothing but good about them. Only negative is that take a good hr to warm up.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Yeah. I've heard nothing but good about them. *Only negative is that take a good hr to warm up.*


 
  
 I've always ignored that. Probably gonna get some hate. Life is too short. I just use straight away.
  
 Tubes have always sounded fine to me right away and I have not heard massive improvements in hour 2 or 3 or 4 etc....
  
 Sometime I go wow, There it is. That magical tube warm up. Then I listen again very carefully. The next time I turn the amp on I listen to the exact song again and it sounds just as great.


----------



## Dogmatrix

badas said:


> I've always ignored that. Probably gonna get some hate. Life is too short. I just use straight away.
> 
> Tubes have always sounded fine to me right away and I have not heard massive improvements in hour 2 or 3 or 4 etc....
> 
> Sometime I go wow, There it is. That magical tube warm up. Then I listen again very carefully. The next time I turn the amp on I listen to the exact song again and it sounds just as great.


 

 Could be wrong but I think 3083joe is thinking of the Bendix 6080 Wb that was being discussed earlier ie slotted or solid plates and long warm up


----------



## Badas

dogmatrix said:


> Could be wrong but I think 3083joe is thinking of the Bendix 6080 Wb that was being discussed earlier ie slotted or solid plates and long warm up


 

 You could be right. I was scratching my head about GEC 6080 slotted plates. I've never seen one.


----------



## Jeb Listens

I thought they were wonderful in the BH-Crack & my favourite of all the 6080s.  
  
 I have found the Crack to be quite responsive to power tube rolls but I would imagine an amp of the calibre of a WA22 or a Glenn might allow you to experience even more of the subtle beauty of the GECs.
  
 I think Mullard fans would enjoy them - tonally they share some common ground but I feel the GECs offer a more refined experience over all.
  
 The only downside - the GEC sticker always seems to be on the wrong side for showing off and I've been too scared to try and move it. 
  
  
  

  
  
 .


----------



## SonicTrance

jeb listens said:


> I thought they were wonderful in the BH-Crack & my favourite of all the 6080s.
> 
> I have found the Crack to be quite responsive to power tube rolls but I would imagine an amp of the calibre of a WA22 or a Glenn might allow you to experience even more of the subtle beauty of the GECs.
> 
> ...


 
 Tip on removing stickers: Apply heat from a heat gun or similar, then carefully remove it. I haven't tried it on tube stickers but it always works.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Great tip!  Thanks Mister-X!.  
  
 Amazing how it's been on there for over half a century.  They knew how to make a sticker in those days.   I feel like sticker-craft has gone down-hill since then.


----------



## adeadcrab

They also knew how to make tubes back then...


----------



## Jeb Listens

adeadcrab said:


> They also knew how to make tubes back then...


 

 lol - Yes.....that too !


----------



## Badas

jeb listens said:


> Great tip!  Thanks Mister-X!.
> 
> Amazing how it's been on there for over half a century.  They knew how to make a sticker in those days.   I feel like sticker-craft has gone down-hill since then.  :tongue_smile:




Dude. Not fair.  I run a label factory.

Here is some custom labels I have made for my tube set.






All labels you see are fake. At least I'm trying.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Oh man - please give me a second to remove my foot from my mouth.  
  
 I take it all back -  great work badas!


----------



## Badas

jeb listens said:


> Oh man - please give me a second to remove my foot from my mouth.
> 
> I take it all back -  great work badas!




I was just razzing ya. 

You are right. Everything is made so cheaply now.

I do have the advantage of having a label printing company. I pinch logo's of the net. Design a label then send it into the factory and tell them to produce me a couple of hundred.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> Score.
> 
> I asked Langrex to hunt me down a set of either GEC 6080 or 6AS7G.
> 
> ...


 
 Congrats. Badas  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I have a pair, just waiting for my amp to get done, so I can listen to them.
  
 The wait can be quite painful  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


3083joe said:


> badas said:
> 
> 
> > Score.
> ...


 
 I think you are thinking about the Bendix 6080 tubes and not the Gec 6080 tubes.
  
 6080 tubes

  There may be some different variations of the GEC 6080, getters and such....but I believe you are thinking of the Bendix graphite plate


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Congrats. Badas
> 
> I have a pair, just waiting for my amp to get done, so I can listen to them.
> 
> The wait can be quite painful




Thanks.

I also bought a pair of the Thomson 6080's today also. They are cheap direct from the UK. Suppose to be good as well. I thought I would give them a go.


----------



## Jeb Listens

badas said:


> I was just razzing ya.
> 
> You are right. Everything is made so cheaply now.
> 
> I do have the advantage of having a label printing company. I pinch logo's of the net. Design a label then send it into the factory and tell them to produce me a couple of hundred.


 

 awesome - great tool to have at your disposal.  I bet it would be possible for you to whip up some GEC labels then - if you were so inclined.  
  
 Hope you enjoy the 6080s.  The quality from Langrex has always been really impressive.  I'm sure they'll turn up looking like they just rolled off the production line!
  
 I got a couple of 5998s from eBay for a good price - when they arrived they looked like they'd just been dug up out of the garden.  Worked well though after a bit of a clean up!


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Congrats. Badas
> ...


 
 I have almost pulled the trigger on those as well....but I have not yet.....I have seen them for $40 for the pair...that is U.S. money.
  
 I may end up getting them...........I will be looking forward to your impressions of them.


----------



## 3083joe

whirlwind said:


> Congrats. Badas
> 
> I have a pair, just waiting for my amp to get done, so I can listen to them.
> 
> ...



Correct. Read that wrong. Was thinking bendix!


----------



## Aussie Lou

badas said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I also bought a pair of the Thomson 6080's today also. They are cheap direct from the UK. Suppose to be good as well. I thought I would give them a go.


 
  
 Badas in regards to the Thomson 6080's what does the code located on the second line under 6080WA indicate.
  
 For example FSE-8101, FSE-8313, FSE-8314, FSE-8050.


----------



## coinmaster

Gec 6080 vs Bendix 6080. Any comments?


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 A few posts back you asked if somebody had contacted Little Dot about running different tubes in each channel. I did ask David Zhe Zhe that question, and he replied that each channel in the LD is completely separate and that there is no problem running different tubes.
  
 Re the 6AS7 and the 5998 (only have one 5998) I paired a Chatham 6AS7G and 5998 in the Elise without any untoward effects.The only thing was that one channel played slightly louder but not objectionable.
  
 Re the GE power tubes, I find the 6080 and early 50's-60's 6AS7GA (not the ones from the late 70's and 80's) very enjoyable in the Elise. These are common and inexpensive and well worth a try.


----------



## coinmaster

It should be noted that I am currently running 2 bendix 6080, 2 tungsol 5998 and 2 tung sol 6sn7 RP in my Little dot MKVI+ right now. I have never heard anything so godly in my life, and I've heard a few $10k+ amps.
 Although I did just do a $3000 component and circuitry upgrade to the amp which helps.
 So yes, it is okay to mix 5998 and 6080/6as7.
 But, which socket they are in matters. When you mix tubes in the MKVI+ switching the tubes around can make them sound 100% different. So make sure you try both positions.
  
  
 Also if someone could give me a technical comparison on the bendix 6080 and the gec 6080 that would be great. Not a "it sounds like that tube"  comparison, but a specific one.


----------



## mordy

Hi coinmaster,
  
 I have to state that I only have experience with the Little Dot MKIII - the MKVI is very different, so I cannot comment on the MKVI. It does sound though that you have a very special set-up.


----------



## coinmaster

Well, I wasn't asking about the amp, I was asking about the characteristics of both tubes in comparison with each other, the bendix 6080 and the gec 6080. I might get some gec 6080s if they are really that good. However I was under the impression bendix was the holy grail 6080.


----------



## gibosi

coinmaster said:


> Also if someone could give me a technical comparison on the bendix 6080 and the gec 6080 that would be great. Not a "it sounds like that tube"  comparison, but a specific one.


 
  
 I am not sure what you mean by "technical comparison". However, in order to be labeled a 6080, the tube must adhere to the original technical specification as listed in the Electron Tube Registration List. There well could be very small differences, but in order to be called a 6080, it must conform to the original spec to allow for the interchangeability of one brand for another in any electrical circuit. The fact that the Bendix has graphite plates and ceramic spacers and the GEC has metal plates and mica spacers is inconsequential as far as the spec is concerned.
  
 In terms of head amps, the only difference that matters is in fact the "sound".


----------



## Badas

aussie lou said:


> Badas in regards to the Thomson 6080's what does the code located on the second line under 6080WA indicate.
> 
> For example FSE-8101, FSE-8313, FSE-8314, FSE-8050.


 

 Not sure mate. I haven't received them yet. I will check as soon as I get them.


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> aussie lou said:
> 
> 
> > Badas in regards to the Thomson 6080's what does the code located on the second line under 6080WA indicate.
> ...


 
  
 That's factory & date: Thomson-CSF Saint-Égrève YYWW.


----------



## Jeb Listens

edit:  Oskari is already on it.  Your tube knowledge is encyclopaedic - Very impressive   
  
  
 I thought the Thomsons were quite a nice sounding tube.  One of the better inexpensive 6080s.   The original boxes are crazy-huge.


----------



## Oskari

There is not too much information about these codes around, Jeb. The YYWW pretty much has to be so, but a list of all the Fxx factory codes would be a nice surprise.


----------



## Badas

jeb listens said:


> edit:  Oskari is already on it.  Your tube knowledge is encyclopaedic - Very impressive
> 
> 
> I thought the Thomsons were quite a nice sounding tube.  One of the better inexpensive 6080s.   The original boxes are crazy-huge.


 

 Cool. I can't wait to give them a go.
  
 I will roll my Mullards over the next week and see if I can obtain a set that is quiet. I should do out of 6 tubes.
  
 Trying to collect sets of everything so if others talk about them I can roll them in and listen.
  
 So far I have:
  
 GE 6080
 GE 6AS7G (7 sets)
 Tung-Sol 6AS7G (3 sets)
 Tung-Sol 6520
 Tung-Sol 7236
 Bendix 6080 (no slots)
 Sylvania 6080 (3 sets)
 RCA 6AS7G, Plus RCA relabeled as Raytheon (2 sets), Sylvania and Tung-Sol
 RCA 6080
 Rusian Svetlana 6N13
 Mullard 6080 (3 sets)
  
 and just bought GEC 6080 and Thomson 6080.
  
 Still need TS 5998 and GEC 6AS7G. But I'm getting there.


----------



## Jeb Listens

oskari said:


> There is not too much information about these codes around, Jeb. The YYWW pretty much has to be so, but a list of all the Fxx factory codes would be a nice surprise.


 

 It would indeed.  I like the Thomsons and enjoyed some Cifte 12AU7s I had before.  Both shared something in being quite sweet and refined sounding.  Probably a gross-generalisation for me to say that is the 'French' sound, but that's my story and i'm sticking to it.
  
  
 Wow - Badas.  That's quite a collection .    It will certainly be interesting to hear how you feel the GECs fit in vs the rest of the bunch.


----------



## Dogmatrix

coinmaster said:


> Gec 6080 vs Bendix 6080. Any comments?


 

 First up both are excellent choices in the 6080 line easily top five
 Differences are small but I will try
 In terms of overall character the Bendix is a little drier colder leaning more towards the solid state end of the spectrum , GEC warmer lush much more classic tube sound
 On a scale with SS at 0 and tube at 100 the Bendix would be 75 the GEC 90 and the GEC 6as7g 95
 Sound wise the Bendix excels more in the lower frequencies but more in terms of control and definition than extension , GEC rules the mid and high with tons of air and clarity
 Sound stage the GEC wins by a small margin with cleaner separation
 Warm up time is another difference the Bendix need around one hour to really get going the GEC are good to go in 15 min
 Right now I have a GEC 6as7g driven by a NU 6f8g in the amp and it is the definition of tube , the 6as7g is everything the 6080 is + 10%


----------



## Dogmatrix

badas said:


> Cool. I can't wait to give them a go.
> 
> I will roll my Mullards over the next week and see if I can obtain a set that is quiet. I should do out of 6 tubes.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice pair of curve base GEC 6as7g on Ebay only $599 AU , I bought a straight base from the same guy last month great tube
 That's only about a million kiwi dollars


----------



## mordy

Hi Badas,
  
 Suggest a pair of Chatham 6080 tubes - very strong and punchy bass.
  
 And (tongue in cheek) a pair of Chinese Shuguang 6N5P just to know what people mean when they say that they don't like them LOL!
  
  
 When you list the seven pairs of GE 6AS7 I am sure that this includes the 6AS7GA. I am particularly enjoying the late 50's/early 60's version (not so much the late 70's/80's version). This tube is a real bargain and IMHO compares well to the more expensive TS/Chatham 6AS7 tubes, although different sounding - more towards musical than analytical.


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> Hi Badas,
> 
> Suggest a pair of Chatham 6080 tubes - very strong and punchy bass.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh! yes. The Chatham 6080. I need a pair of those as well. Right you are.
  
 I'm not buying 6N5P. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 Yes. I have seven pairs of the GE6AS7GA. It is my go to tube. It does a whole lot right. Nothing wrong. Some areas could be stronger but you have to part with big $$'s to get it.


----------



## 3083joe

dogmatrix said:


> Nice pair of curve base GEC 6as7g on Ebay only $599 AU , I bought a straight base from the same guy last month great tube
> That's only about a million kiwi dollars :rolleyes:



Bought a set of curved base GEC 6as7g from kef at valvetubes.com $525 shipped mint!!beautful tubes.


----------



## Aussie Lou

badas said:


> Not sure mate. I haven't received them yet. I will check as soon as I get them.


 

 Goodo! Look forward to your impressions.
  
  


oskari said:


> That's factory & date: Thomson-CSF Saint-Égrève YYWW.


 

 Thanks mate, that helps.


----------



## ru4music

aussie lou said:


> Goodo! Look forward to your impressions.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks mate, that helps.


 

 Wow, Thomson's 6080s were made into 1983 (?!)  I'm feeling old... heck... I am old!  At least tube nostalgia isn't a part of my history, it's part of my life!


----------



## thecrow

3083joe said:


> Bought a set of curved base GEC 6as7g from kef at valvetubes.com $525 shipped mint!!beautful tubes.


Do those tubes get to their website or is there a waiting list (more or less)?


----------



## coinmaster

Thanks Dogmatrix, you just sold me on the Gec 6080. Got the last one on ebay. Eat it suckers


----------



## Jeb Listens

Congrats coinmaster! Hope you love them.    
  
 Just FYI Langrex have 10+ NOS for sale on eBay at £65 per tube - not cheap, and you can sometimes find them for a fair bit less, but still pretty good value vs the 6AS7 GECs


----------



## coinmaster

Yeah, I got a pair for $100. It's funny, I no longer buy quad sets of anything even though my amp requires it. I just mix all my tubes now cuz it sounds so much better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Gec 6080s mixed with bendix 6080 or tungsol 5998? Hmmmmm


----------



## Jeb Listens

..and why not indeed!  nothing like mixing up a tube-stew.   Pinch of this... pinch of that....    Seasoning is everything!


----------



## coinmaster

The thing I've noticed is, when I mix the tubes, I get the best of both of them.


----------



## SonicTrance

coinmaster said:


> The thing I've noticed is, when I mix the tubes, I get the best of both of them.




Though you have yet to try four GEC 6AS7G's...


----------



## coinmaster

Or one.
 I was contemplating hard on buying those 2 on ebay atm and mixing them with the tungsol 5998 but in the end I don't have the cash on me after spending over $3000 on upgrading my amp parts. (which btw sounds better than any amp I've ever heard by far).


----------



## 3083joe

thecrow said:


> Do those tubes get to their website or is there a waiting list (more or less)?


 

 I just email them straight out, super fast response and prices always change.
  
 contact@valvetubes.com
 Kef is an awesome guy
 Tubes are the best I seen from any company and it you use DHL, They get to My door in the US in 3 day!
 and always with nice boxes!
 GEC below, 
 I post the Cossor 53KU GZ37 Fat Bottle and Mullard ecc35s when they get here next week


----------



## Dogmatrix

jeb listens said:


> Congrats coinmaster! Hope you love them.
> 
> Just FYI Langrex have 10+ NOS for sale on eBay at £65 per tube - not cheap, and you can sometimes find them for a fair bit less, but still pretty good value vs the 6AS7 GECs


 

 Langrex are getting greedy , bought a pair last month on Ebay same cv code mint in mil boxes exactly half that price


----------



## Jeb Listens

dogmatrix said:


> Langrex are getting greedy , bought a pair last month on Ebay same cv code mint in mil boxes exactly half that price




Yes - I paid about the same as you a few months ago and it's certainly possible to find them at that cheaper price on eBay if you are willing to be patient and check in regularly - or just get lucky. Original boxes are always great to have - nicely done.


----------



## Badas

coinmaster said:


> Yeah, I got a pair for $100. It's funny, I no longer buy quad sets of anything even though my amp requires it. I just mix all my tubes now cuz it sounds so much better
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Can you post a pic of your amp please? I'm really curious.


----------



## coinmaster

badas said:


> Can you post a pic of your amp please? I'm really curious.


 
 I'm sort of under oath not to talk about it that much, it's kind of hush hush. Me and a few others along with someone that wrote books on tube technology have been working on advanced upgrades for the Little Dot MK6 and MK8 amps. There's a full on LD upgrade thread that will be released within a week or so and it will contain everything about it. I've never heard any amplifier at any price sound as good as a LD amp with these upgrades, not even close.
 The stock LD MK6/8 competes with the WA22, and they are in an entirely different league all together with the upgrades.
  
 I suppose I can throw a few pics.

  

 It's not finished and it aint pretty but oh my god does it sound good.
 I'm currently letting the new components burn in a little bit with some low level tubes plugged in.
 I got a row of duelund cast caps in there as well which requires a few hundred hours burn in.


----------



## Badas

Wow.
  
 A lot of fans to keep it cool I'm guessing.
  
 Two sets of 6AS7G's sounds so cool.
  
 Maybe I will get Glenn to make me a custom amp that way with the C3G drivers.


----------



## coinmaster

Yeah, I normally use 2 thomson 6080s mixed with bendix 6080s or 5998s. For some reason the thomsons just add add that euphony to the sound. Even though the bendix 6080/thungsol 5998 combo does technically sound the best.
 As for the fans, I have 4 noctua fans I'm going to install 2 in the sides and 2 inside. Right now I'm just kind of "ghetto" cooling it while it burns in.


----------



## Badas

I have rolled in the Mullard 6080. I haven't had much luck with this tube as it is noisy in my amp. Some noisy some quiet. 

So I figured I will roll them until I get a quiet set as I have 6 tubes. So far I have one quiet one noisy.

Damn they are a lovely sounding tube. Very full bodied. The Angelina Jolie of the tube world


----------



## coinmaster

Yeah, I have 2 mullards on order (black plates,black base, phillips rebranded if that makes any difference) .I hope they aren't noisy because they weren't cheap and the shipping is long.


----------



## Badas

coinmaster said:


> Yeah, I have 2 mullards on order (black plates,black base, phillips rebranded if that makes any difference) .I hope they aren't noisy because they weren't cheap and the shipping is long.




As far as I know it is only the Woo WA22's manufactured a year ago that has problems. 

Old and brand new WA22's are fine. 

A few of us from a year ago have been having a ruff time with power tubes. A couple of WA22 owners also have the WA2. A noisy 6080 power tube in a WA22 is dead quiet in the WA2. 

So Woo stuffed up back then. Has now fixed the issue and is keeping freakin quiet about the whole drama.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> I have rolled in the Mullard 6080. I haven't had much luck with this tube as it is noisy in my amp. Some noisy some quiet.
> 
> So I figured I will roll them until I get a quiet set as I have 6 tubes. So far I have one quiet one noisy.
> 
> Damn they are a lovely sounding tube. Very full bodied. The Angelina Jolie of the tube world


 

 Been wanting to ask you this about your noisy tubes, like i said before i was using a pair of russian tubes that were noisy in the WA22 and quiet in the WA2  what i meant was that i heard a cotinuous buzz. in the HP. your Mullards is it the same buzz like noise or is it only when you tap the amp type of noise.


----------



## abvolt

That's so peculiar because I have 5 sets of the mullards without issues..


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> Been wanting to ask you this about your noisy tubes, like i said before i was using a pair of russian tubes that were noisy in the WA22 and quiet in the WA2  what i meant was that i heard a cotinuous buzz. in the HP. your Mullards is it the same buzz like noise or is it only when you tap the amp type of noise.




Exactly what you describe. A continuous buzz that sounds like noise. Like a continuous swarm of bees buzzing pass all the time. Not heard in loud to medium music but defintly heard in low level music and in between tracks.

A few of us has PMed each other and worked out there was a period of amps that were manufactured about a year ago that all have the issue. All WA22 only. Mine has been into a repair shop and checked for shorts or grounding issues. Nothing was found. As another member with the issue said it was unlikely to be the cause as it would do it to all tubes. 

From what we worked out it is likely a voltage intolerance issue. Seems to creep in on Woo products. WA5 had a issue with blowing rectifiers that got sorted by Glenn when it was introduced. Woo did nothing to fix that also.

Right now at this point I better shut my mouth. Woo is powerful on this site and I could likely get a ban. It has happened many times before.

Eventually I will make a list of tubes that work and the ones that don't. At this stage avoid the Russian, Mullard and Sylvania 6080's. They are the worst. 



abvolt said:


> That's so peculiar because I have 5 sets of the mullards without issues..




Yeah. It is not a Mullard issue. It is a Woo WA22 issue and only some of them. The WA22 that I own has been made to use only some 6080's not all. Very frustrating.

Mullard is a fantastic sounding power tube. I think at this stage the best I own so far. I've always thought the GE6AS7G was close. It is. However the little differences produce the last little bit of magic from my amp. 

Out of 6 Mullard tubes I think I have finially found a set that is quiet. Same date codes and construction as well. I'm testing them now. 20 minutes in and so far it is all good. I rolled 5 tubes to get a quiet set.


----------



## Badas

Some more of those custom labels on the Mullards. It is amazing how the ceramic elephant improves sound quality. 

Okay I have got two hours on the Mullards now. All good. Just a very slight low level buzz hum from one. Not noticeable in music at all. Only occasionally hear it between tracks. So totally workable. Also tubes are NOS so that could disappear with hours added. 

It looks like I finially have a workable set of Mullards. Very pleased. Lovely tube.


----------



## whirlwind

^ Glad you can finally enjoy the Mullards ^


----------



## ru4music

badas said:


> Some more of those custom labels on the Mullards. It is amazing how the ceramic elephant improves sound quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hey, how do be know that those are really Mullards and you just didn't apply those stickers to some old RCAs?


----------



## Badas

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]





whirlwind said:


> ^ Glad you can finally enjoy the Mullards ^




Yip. Finially. Really enjoying them. I wish I could sort out the amp issue. I would stock up on these. Hopefully the GEC is quiet and nice. If so I will stock up on those. 



ru4music said:


> Hey, how do be know that those are really Mullards and you just didn't apply those stickers to some old RCAs?




Damn you found me out. 



Is a close up showing construction and military stamp better?


----------



## abvolt

looks good like that..


----------



## ru4music

badas said:


> Yip. Finially. Really enjoying them. I wish I could sort out the amp issue. I would stock up on these. Hopefully the GEC is quiet and nice. If so I will stock up on those.
> Damn you found me out.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 LOL!  Thank you Sir!  However, the picture could have been Photo shopped...!


----------



## Badas

_z_


ru4music said:


> LOL!  Thank you Sir!  However, the picture could have been Photo shopped...!




You win. 

Maybe I could make a business of buying crappy tubes and making nice labels for them then reselling? Opps. That is already happening on eBarf and I could not sleep well if I did. :rolleyes:


----------



## ru4music

badas said:


> _z_
> You win.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 LOL again!  I'm not sure, but I'm pretty convinced that's what drove the China economy to record numbers before the "correction" here recently...  Oh well, that's why*  "I'm in it for the music"* and not the immediate high returns... YMMV


----------



## thecrow

I've been offered a pair of Gec 6as7g tubes with the straight brown base. Is there much difference between the straight and the rounded brown base?


----------



## Badas

thecrow said:


> I've been offered a pair of Gec 6as7g tubes with the straight brown base. Is there much difference between the straight and the rounded brown base?




They are supose to be very very close. What price?


----------



## thecrow

badas said:


> They are supose to be very very close. What price?


PM'd


----------



## Badas

Okay I have rolled my 6 Mullard power tubes.

Not as bad a result as I expected. I got 3 totally quiet, 1 quiet with a low level hum and 2 terribly noisy and just not useable. So really 2 useable sets. Happier about that.

Months ago when I put them in I would get 1 noisy and 1 quiet so I got frustrated and threw them all to one side.
Now I'm listening to a set of totally quiet. So very nice. I'm noticing the treble the most. It extends so high, so sweetly, no harshness and so smooth.

I'm hopeful that the GEC is just as nice and quiet. If it is I will buy a lot of sets. 
Also got the Thomson to evaluate as well. That might be a nice surprise also.


----------



## gibosi

thecrow said:


> I've been offered a pair of Gec 6as7g tubes with the straight brown base. Is there much difference between the straight and the rounded brown base?


 
  
 I have a pair of each and I can't hear any difference.


----------



## JamieMcC

gibosi said:


> I have a pair of each and I can't hear any difference.


 

 Same here however there are several different getter versions of these tubes so very possible a halo getter might have been compared with a pan/saucer getter in the past etc


----------



## thecrow

jamiemcc said:


> Same here however there are several different getter versions of these tubes so very possible a halo getter might have been compared with a pan/saucer getter in the past etc


Looking forward to them. They're on the way here. So's my wa2. A race to see which one gets here first.


----------



## gibosi

jamiemcc said:


> Same here however there are several different getter versions of these tubes so very possible a halo getter might have been compared with a pan/saucer getter in the past etc


 
  
 Yep, both of mine were manufactured at about the same time and have the same construction, so it is no surprise that they sound the same.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> Yep, both of mine were manufactured at about the same time and have the same construction, so it is no surprise that they sound the same.


 
 Hey gibosi, have you found any documentation on how to decipher the GEC codes? I've searched but can't find any, only speculations.


----------



## gibosi

sonictrance said:


> Hey gibosi, have you found any documentation on how to decipher the GEC codes? I've searched but can't find any, only speculations.


 
  
 Both of my pairs use the Common Valve system:
  
 http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> Both of my pairs use the Common Valve system:
> 
> http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


 
 Thanks! Then this should be correct for the two letter system.
  
 A 45 - jan
 B 46 - feb
 C 47 - mar
 D 48 - apr
 E 49 - may
 F 50 - jun
 G 51 - jul
 H 52 - aug
 J 53 - sep
 K 54 - oct
 L 55 - nov
 M 56 - dec
 N 57
 P 58
 Q 59
 R 60
 S 61
 T 62
 U 63
 V 64
 W 65
 X 66
 Y 67
 Z 68


----------



## gibosi

Yep, exactly. The letters "i" and "o" are omitted, and otherwise. it is very straightforward.
  
 Cheers


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> Yep, exactly. The letters "i" and "o" are omitted, and otherwise. it is very straightforward.
> 
> Cheers


 
 Brilliant! And thanks for that link


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Some more of those custom labels on the Mullards. It is amazing how the ceramic elephant improves sound quality.
> 
> Okay I have got two hours on the Mullards now. All good. Just a very slight low level buzz hum from one. Not noticeable in music at all. Only occasionally hear it between tracks. So totally workable. Also tubes are NOS so that could disappear with hours added.
> 
> It looks like I finially have a workable set of Mullards. Very pleased. Lovely tube.



Sell me a noisy set and I'll test them in mine


----------



## 3083joe

thecrow said:


> I've been offered a pair of Gec 6as7g tubes with the straight brown base. Is there much difference between the straight and the rounded brown base?



Close, rounds are said to be a little better.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Sell me a noisy set and I'll test them in mine


 

 Opposite sides of the world. The Freight will kill it.
  
 Get a set of Langrex. They are not a hideous price.
  
 My GEC's are in the country. So I could get them soon. However I think they might get held up in customs.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Opposite sides of the world. The Freight will kill it.
> 
> Get a set of Langrex. They are not a hideous price.
> 
> My GEC's are in the country. So I could get them soon. However I think they might get held up in customs.



Hear ya 
Enjoy the GEC when they do get there


----------



## Dogmatrix

Speaking of GEC I just swapped a GEC 6as7g for a GEC 6080 and I am struggling to pick a difference
 Not an entirely fair fight in that the 6080 is nos and the 6as7g used but the difference is much smaller than I was expecting
 Tone and character are identical the 6as7g maybe has a slight edge in bass clarity
 Certainly don't feel like I am missing anything running the 6080


----------



## Badas

dogmatrix said:


> Speaking of GEC I just swapped a GEC 6as7g for a GEC 6080 and I am struggling to pick a difference
> Not an entirely fair fight in that the 6080 is nos and the 6as7g used but the difference is much smaller than I was expecting
> Tone and character are identical the 6as7g maybe has a slight edge in bass clarity
> Certainly don't feel like I am missing anything running the 6080


 
  
 Damn good to know. Good on you to test.
  
 That is why I got a set of the 6080's. I'm a bit tight at the moment and have been struggling to find a good set of 6AS7G's at a reasonable price.
  
 I studied the two tubes construction and they look very similar. So it was worth a shot.
  
 I really hope they are quiet in my amp. My fingers are crossed.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Damn good to know. Good on you to test.
> 
> That is why I got a set of the 6080's. I'm a bit tight at the moment and have been struggling to find a good set of 6AS7G's at a reasonable price.
> 
> ...



That's good. Never tried them. GEC 6as7 is big difference from ts 7236 I believe. Lower power tho.


----------



## JamieMcC

dogmatrix said:


> Speaking of GEC I just swapped a GEC 6as7g for a GEC 6080 and I am struggling to pick a difference
> Not an entirely fair fight in that the 6080 is nos and the 6as7g used but the difference is much smaller than I was expecting
> Tone and character are identical the 6as7g maybe has a slight edge in bass clarity
> Certainly don't feel like I am missing anything running the 6080


 
  
 Shhh or every one will want one . I find the 6as7g versions sound stage more expansive and there is significantly more micro/macro detail retrieval. This wasn't at first apparent with my HD650 but later with T1 and HD800 was quiet noticeable.  The GEC 6080 is to my mind the best of the 6080's the Bendix's versions while also excellent never seem to suck me in like the GEC the same tube can sometimes also be found under different branding so its still possible to pick them up for pocket change occasionally.


----------



## 3083joe

jamiemcc said:


> Shhh or every one will want one . I find the 6as7g versions sound stage more expansive and there is significantly more micro/macro detail retrieval. This wasn't at first apparent with my HD650 but later with T1 and HD800 was quiet noticeable.  The GEC 6080 is to my mind the best of the 6080's the Bendix's versions while also excellent never seem to suck me in like the GEC the same tube can sometimes also be found under different branding so its still possible to pick them up for pocket change occasionally.



Yeah. Noticed the same with 800s & wa22 that I didn't with 650s and wa6


----------



## Jeb Listens

gibosi said:


> Yep, exactly. The letters "i" and "o" are omitted, and otherwise. it is very straightforward.
> 
> Cheers


 

 do you know anything about the factory codes that appear on the pre 60s GECs ?  It seems like those don't always carry the one or two letter location code that would lead you to a particular factory (e.g. "Z" for Hammersmith).  
  
 I have one which, apart from the date code, just has a solitary "4", which I understand may not be a factory location code anyway.  
  
 Were all the GEC/Osram/MWT labelled 6AS7s, manufactured at MOV Hammersmith ?  Almost every pic i've seen has a "Z"  or a "4". 
  
  
 Anyway, damn nice sounding tube in the Crack.  Not quite ready to comment vs the 6080 yet !


----------



## gibosi

jeb listens said:


> do you know anything about the factory codes that appear on the pre 60s GECs ?  It seems like those don't always carry the one or two letter location code that would lead you to a particular factory (e.g. "Z" for Hammersmith).
> 
> I have one which, apart from the date code, just has a solitary "4", which I understand may not be a factory location code anyway.
> 
> Were all the GEC/Osram/MWT labelled 6AS7s, manufactured at MOV Hammersmith ?  Almost every pic i've seen has a "Z"  or a "4".


 
  
 To the best of my knowledge, all GEC/MOV 6AS7 and 6080 were manufactured in Hammersmith.  And I have seen the "4" as well.
  
 My best guess.... When the tube was labeled as a Common Valve, the CV factory designation was used, ie, "Z" for Hammersmith. When CV labeling was not used, the GEC factory designation was used, ie, "4".
  
 As another example, the CV factory designation for Mullard's Mitcham factory is "D". And this is commonly seen on Mullard 6080s. But the etched Mullard/Philips factory code for Mitcham is "R".
  
 Anyway, with regard to GEC/MOV tubes, I am just guessing.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Thanks - They are good guesses, sir.  
  
 From everything I have read, we are mostly all guessing about that particular code


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> That's good. Never tried them. GEC 6as7 is big difference from ts 7236 I believe. Lower power tho.


 

 My observations of the TS 7236 is that it is way overrated.
  
 I think Woo has massive stocks of the 7236. They have been pushing it for years. Possibly they pushed the 7236 to sell units.
  
 My ears tell me it is wooley in the bass. What I dislike the most. It is just not clean. No mid-range and not very extended. Not a good tube. I usually can't pull the tube out fast enough.
  
 Yes it has more gain. However I only use 1/4 power in my amp anyway. So more power is wasted. As my amp has a stepped volume control I find the 7236 power a disadvantage. It always seems to fall in the too loud or too quiet position on the steps (one is too quiet, the next is too loud). A 6080 allows more control.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, all GEC/MOV 6AS7 and 6080 were manufactured in Hammersmith.  And I have seen the "4" as well.
> 
> *My best guess.... When the tube was labeled as a Common Valve, the CV factory designation was used, ie, "Z" for Hammersmith. When CV labeling was not used, the GEC factory designation was used, ie, "4".*
> 
> ...


 
 Good guess Unfortunately I have a few GEC A1834's that's not CV labeled but do have the "Z" for Hammersmith. I guess we'll never really know...


----------



## Jeb Listens

sonictrance said:


> Good guess Unfortunately I have a few GEC A1834's that's not CV labeled but do have the "Z" for Hammersmith. I guess we'll never really know...


 

 I did a bit more digging and the only information i've been able to find is that on other GEC valves the numbers apparently follow some kind of chronological order with the number "6" being used from around '45 to '53, then "10" until '56 and then "4" from 1957-8 -  this fits with mine which is a 1957 and has a "4".  
  
 Although it seems like most of the 6AS7/A1834 were likely made at Hammersmith, on other GEC models the same mysterious number can be found on valves that were known to have been manufactured at different factories - so it seems its unlikely to be any kind of factory location code.
  
 It sounds like by 1959 that number had gone and you would find the factory letter code instead. 
  
 I read one post from someone who had spoken with a few people who worked at the GEC factories and they didn't have a clue either.... so as you say Mister-X...we may never really know.....


----------



## gibosi

jeb listens said:


> I did a bit more digging and the only information i've been able to find is that on other GEC valves the numbers apparently follow some kind of chronological order with the number "6" being used from around '45 to '53, then "10" until '56 and then "4" from 1957-8 -  this fits with mine which is a 1957 and has a "4".
> 
> Although it seems like most of the 6AS7/A1834 were likely made at Hammersmith, on other GEC models the same mysterious number can be found on valves that were known to have been manufactured at different factories - so it seems its unlikely to be any kind of factory location code.


 
  
 One more data point. I have a B36. And printed in a rectangular box on the glass:
  
 B36
 HD 4
  
 So apparently manufactured in 1952...


----------



## Jeb Listens

gibosi said:


> One more data point. I have a B36. And printed in a rectangular box on the glass:
> 
> B36
> HD 4
> ...


 
  
  
 Doh. Well in that case.... I give up.


----------



## SonicTrance

jeb listens said:


> Doh. Well in that case.... I give up.


 
 Lol, this sure is a tough nut to crack


----------



## robio d

Hi, just bought a woo WA3 and whilst it came with some very good tubes including a Tung Sol 7236 I had to find more!  Got a sweet bendix 6080wb and some Sylvania GB6080's coming, and also some good ole RCA 6sa7g's.

 Where I'd really like some help is I just bought 2 pairs of 6as7g's from a local here in NZ.  One set is labelled as tung sol and the other sylvania, but I'm pretty sure both sets are RCA's.  Now, sylvania labelled RCA's seem fairly common so not so bothered about them, but I'd like some help checking out the tung sol which might have had some faking?
  
 Reading through this thread and others it seems there were never any RCA 6as7g rebranded by tung sol.  The tung sol pair I got have grey plates which again seem to be only made by RCA, with all tung sol and other manufacturer 6as7g's being black plate.   Also the construction should be slightly different between an RCA and a tung sol,  I can spot no differences between any of the tubes and my 3 RCA's apart from one of the real RCA's has black plates, all others are grey.  And also the tung sol printing looks off, I can find no images of tung sol printing looking like these, real fat and bold, or any hit on the codes used.  322 is tung sol but nothing on the other parts of the code.
  
 Pics attached.  I've included some close ups and side by side comparisons of my original RCA's and the other new "tung sol" and "sylvania"
  
 Am I wrong? 

 thanks
  
 Rob.
  
 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4ls134y3zpbm24l/AAAFiDy_wMaqY7NokWYiuNFfa?dl=0


----------



## Badas

​^

RCA made 6AS7G for just about everyone in the end. Including Tung-Sol. One of the biggest re-branded tubes. 

Tung-Sol version sometimes came in slightly shorter bottle than the others.

I have seen the RCA rebadged as Rogers, Raytheon, Tung-Sol and Sylvania. Sure there is others as well.


----------



## robio d

HI,
  
 thanks for the extra info.  I was going off a comment by skylab around he had never seen a tung-sol labelled RCA,  but if there was rebranding then they have not been "faked".  Still I paid for real tung-sol!  Did you or anyone have a look at the pictures to confirm?  It would be nice to go back to the seller with additional views.
  
 thanks
  
 Rob.


----------



## Badas

robio d said:


> HI,
> 
> thanks for the extra info.  I was going off a comment by skylab around he had never seen a tung-sol labelled RCA,  but if there was rebranding then they have not been "faked".  Still I paid for real tung-sol!  Did you or anyone have a look at the pictures to confirm?  It would be nice to go back to the seller with additional views.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is definitely a RCA made tube. Re-labeled Tung-Sol. This was extremely common. In the end only RCA was making 6AS7G. Most of the others had given up and were just getting RCA to make their tubes under contract. I'm guessing that your Tung-Sol is a very late production RCA made for Tung-Sol under contract. Possibly late 70's early 80's.
  
 When searching for a Tung-Sol made tube you are looking for a Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G or 6520. It could be made by Tung-Sol or Chatham. Chatham first, Tung-Sol latter as they purchased Chatham.
  
 Easily identifiable. It does not have the flap covering the wires under the bottom micra.
  
 Example:
  

  

  
 Here is a set in my amp. Older pic.
  
 No flaps. They also have little silver triangle plate holders at the top and bottom of the plates.
  
 Very different sounding to the RCA made tube. A lot more holographic as a plus. Leaner as a negative.


----------



## gibosi

robio d said:


> thanks for the extra info.  I was going off a comment by skylab around he had never seen a tung-sol labelled RCA,  but if there was rebranding then they have not been "faked".  Still I paid for real tung-sol!  Did you or anyone have a look at the pictures to confirm?  It would be nice to go back to the seller with additional views.


 
  
 To the best of my knowledge, of the American manufacturers, only RCA and Chatham made the 6AS7. Before Tung-Sol acquired Chatham, they sourced these tubes from either RCA and Chatham. And of course, later, after the acquisition, Tung-Sol used Chatham's facilities to manufacture this tube. So you will see both RCA and Chatham tubes with the Tung-Sol label.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, of the American manufacturers, only RCA and Chatham made the 6AS7. Before Tung-Sol acquired Chatham, they sourced these tubes from either RCA and Chatham. And of course, later, after the acquisition, Tung-Sol used Chatham's facilities to manufacture this tube. So you will see both RCA and Chatham tubes with the Tung-Sol label.


 

 Yeah, That is a better explanation.
  
 It is best to buy from internal construction. Not what is written on the tube. If you have questions or doubts ask here.
  
 A good example of this is the Sylvania 6080.
  
 I have seen it labelled under these names: Sylvania, Sylvania Gold, Brimar, Telefunkin, and National. They are all just Sylvania. However the Telefunkin and Brimar versions sell for triple the price.
  
 Tube re-branding is prolific.


----------



## whirlwind

I just sprung for a pair of Thompson 6080


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> I just sprung for a pair of Thompson 6080


 

 I'm really looking forward to these myself. There has been good reviews. Mine are in the country and I should have them soon.


----------



## whirlwind

Look forward to your impressions


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Look forward to your impressions


 

 Likewise.
  
 It will be hard to beat the Mullards I have installed at the moment. Now I have a set running.
  
 The Mullard is one sweet sounding tube. Literary the treble is sweet. Real magic last night.
  
 I'm hoping the Thomson is close and quiet tho.


----------



## attmci

badas said:


> It is definitely a RCA made tube. Re-labeled Tung-Sol. This was extremely common. In the end only RCA was making 6AS7G. Most of the others had given up and were just getting RCA to make their tubes under contract. I'm guessing that your Tung-Sol is a very late production RCA made for Tung-Sol under contract. Possibly late 70's early 80's.
> 
> When searching for a Tung-Sol made tube you are looking for a Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G or 6520. It could be made by Tung-Sol or Chatham. Chatham first, Tung-Sol latter as they purchased Chatham.
> 
> ...


 

 That Export Gold must be a rebanded RCA 6AS7


----------



## Badas

attmci said:


> That Export Gold must be a rebanded RCA 6AS7


 
  
 It's mellow with a bit of a sharp bite. So more likely a rebranded Sylvania 6080.


----------



## Badas

Got some power tubes for the WA22 today.



5 sets of the GE 6AS7G. I like this tube so I want some stock.

A set of the Thomson 6080 to trial. A strange tube. Look at the size of the box for such a small tube. I got three and all three are different heights. All have the same internals and date codes. I guess the French didn't care about uniformity. I purchased two and the seller sent three. Nice. I'm listening right now. Too early for comments. However many may know that my amp is notorious for noise with power tubes. So far so good. Dead quiet. A good starting point. 

Finially a set of the GEC 6080. I've always wanted to try the GEC 6AS7G just I couldn't get a set in my price range. So I thought I would give the 6080 a try. looking forward to rolling.

I think I will give the GEC a go this weekend. Just to make sure it is quiet. However I will mainly concentrate on giving the Thomson some hours on them.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> Got some power tubes for the WA22 today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Very nice....the Thompson tubes are different heights....or the boxes.....lol


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Very nice....the Thompson tubes are different heights....or the boxes.....lol




To clarify. The tube heights are all different. The glass bottles are all different. Internals all the same. A big difference between them. The difference between the tallest and shortest would be 1CM (sorry for the measurement system). Kidda odd but cute.


----------



## mordy

Hi Badas,
  
 I have 5 GE 6AS7GA tubes (labeled HP), all from 1959-62. Like these better than the later 6AS7GA from the 70's and 80's which don't sound as warm to me.
  
 One of my tubes has copper rods, and to me the bass is better - did you notice such a thing?


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> Hi Badas,
> 
> I have 5 GE 6AS7GA tubes (labeled HP), all from 1959-62. Like these better than the later 6AS7GA from the 70's and 80's which don't sound as warm to me.
> 
> One of my tubes has copper rods, and to me the bass is better - did you notice such a thing?


 
  
 Interesting:
  
 Up until now I have only had two sets of the GE6AS7GA and I'm fairly sure they are the 70's possibly 80's version. They come in a very plain white box and were very clean.
  
 The five sets I got last night are in GE colourful boxes. Very dirty, very dusty (as in picture). Could these be an older model?
  

  
 Code on tube KM 188-5
  
 On the box it says Recyclable package. So maybe 70's??? Were they recycling in the 60's?


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> To clarify. The tube heights are all different. The glass bottles are all different. Internals all the same. A big difference between them. The difference between the tallest and shortest would be 1CM (sorry for the measurement system). Kidda odd but cute.


 
  
 I have seen this in 3 set of ts 6080's their glass envelopes are various sizes all 3 sets are different but the internals are all the same and they sound all the same also..


----------



## Jeb Listens

badas said:


> So maybe 70's??? Were they recycling in the 60's?


 
  
 KM = July 1978, I believe
  
 188-5 refers to the GE factory, Owensboro, Kentucky
  
  
 I have some of similar vintage - the boxes are cool.


----------



## Badas

jeb listens said:


> KM = July 1978, I believe
> 
> 188-5 refers to the GE factory, Owensboro, Kentucky
> 
> ...


 

 Cool. Thanks for that. It will be interesting to try the older 50's and 60's version.
  
 These ones feel heavy and solid. Seem a little different to my first few sets. I will give them a go next week.
  
 Early impression on Thomson. Very polite. Does nothing wrong. However it seems like it is missing something. Very early tho. Things are likely to change.


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I have seen this in 3 set of ts 6080's their glass envelopes are various sizes all 3 sets are different but the internals are all the same and they sound all the same also..


 
  
 Exactly what I have with the Thomson. Left and Right sounded the same. Two different glass heights.
  
 If I like these I will likely buy a lot. So I will just lay them all out and match the heights.


----------



## mordy

Hi Badas,
  
 The older 6as7GA tubes look exactly like this:
  





  
 Most of the tubes I buy at this time come without boxes so cannot comment on how the boxes look like.
  
 Here is the single tube with copper rods (on the right) that sounds a little bit better to me:
  




  
  
  
 Ordered two more re-branded tubes with copper rods - I assume that all 6AS7GA were made by GE.


----------



## 3083joe

Nice Badas
Order a set of Mullard 6080s and GEC 6080s look forward to comparing to GEC 6as7s


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> Hi Badas,
> 
> The older 6as7GA tubes look exactly like this:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I held up my tube to the screen. There has been a number of changes. The top getters are square instead of round. The wire that holds the top micra is suspended instead of touching the micra. Plus the copper rods you have identified. These differences are likely to make slight changes to how they sound.


3083joe said:


> Nice @Badas
> Order a set of Mullard 6080s and GEC 6080s look forward to comparing to GEC 6as7s


 
  
 Nice one again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I will be really, really interested in your opinion between GEC 6080 and 6AS7G.
  
 Plus tell me if the Mullards are quiet in your amp?


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Nice one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Will do!
 Millard will be here by weekend and GEC next weekend or after 
 Ill keep you posted


----------



## JazzVinyl

badas said:


> Nice one.
> Plus tell me if the Mullards are quiet in your amp?




I have a pair of 1970 Mullard 6080's inbound as well. They are known to be noisy in some amps?

.


----------



## 3083joe

jazzvinyl said:


> I have a pair of 1970 Mullard 6080's inbound as well. They are known to be noisy in some amps?
> 
> .


 
 mine are matched pair from 1965
 I will let you both know!


----------



## JazzVinyl

3083joe said:


> mine are matched pair from 1965
> I will let you both know!




Very nice! Mine are supposed to be matched, NOS R codes...mailed farm Cyprus. Hope it's all as advertised


----------



## 3083joe

jazzvinyl said:


> Very nice! Mine are supposed to be matched, NOS R codes...mailed farm Cyprus. Hope it's all as advertised



Awesome. Sure it will be.


----------



## Badas

GEC 6080's are rolled in. I'm not blown away. They are nice but not leaping out better than the GE6AS7GA. Mullard 6080 is the best I've heard. That is a special tube.


----------



## Aussie Lou

badas said:


> GEC 6080's are rolled in. I'm not blown away. They are nice but not leaping out better than the GE6AS7GA. Mullard 6080 is the best I've heard. That is a special tube.


 
  
 Are you ranking the GEC 6080's above or below the GE6AS7GA?


----------



## Badas

aussie lou said:


> Are you ranking the GEC 6080's above or below the GE6AS7GA?




Not sure yet. Too early to say. However the GEC didn't grab me and rock my world. It does nothing wrong but does nothing exceptional either. 

I'm going to roll the GE's back in tomorrow and listen to the same music.

I took notes on the music as I was listening. 

My immediate thoughts are GE and GEC are really close. Mullards on another higher level.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> aussie lou said:
> 
> 
> > Are you ranking the GEC 6080's above or below the GE6AS7GA?
> ...


 
 Very interesting, I have both the Mullard and Gec...I do not have any GE 6AS7GA.....of course i will be using a different amp and a HD800.......what cans are you using Badas ?


----------



## Aussie Lou

badas said:


> Not sure yet. Too early to say. However the GEC didn't grab me and rock my world. It does nothing wrong but does nothing exceptional either.
> 
> I'm going to roll the GE's back in tomorrow and listen to the same music.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good to know, certainly a difference price wise.
  
 No impressions on the Thompsons yet?


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Very interesting, I have both the Mullard and Gec...I do not have any GE 6AS7GA.....of course i will be using a different amp and a HD800.......what cans are you using Badas ?




I have the Audeze LCD-3C and LCD-X. All evaluations have been on the LCD-X.



aussie lou said:


> Good to know, certainly a difference price wise.
> 
> No impressions on the Thompsons yet?




Yes. Certainly in the mix. I'm going to see if the GE is close to the GEC. I suspect it is.

After that I will roll back to the Thomsons. They are nice as well.


----------



## JamieMcC

badas said:


> I'm going to see if the GE is close to the GEC. I suspect it is.


 
  

  
 By the way Parts connexion have NOS Thomson mil-spec 6080WA available for $9.95 each!
  
http://www.partsconnexion.com/NOS-79665.html


----------



## adeadcrab

jamiemcc said:


> By the way Parts connexion have NOS Thomson mil-spec 6080WA available for $9.95 each!
> 
> http://www.partsconnexion.com/NOS-79665.html


 
 Are they any good? What do they sound like?


----------



## JamieMcC

adeadcrab said:


> Are they any good? What do they sound like?


 

 Read some of Badas posts above. I haven't tried them myself here in the UK/Europe they are about twice as much and I can normally find Mullards and GEC's for a similar price. For every day drivers value wise the Russian 6H13C is hard to beat for around $10 NOS here.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Hi Jamie -  you can grab a Thomson here for £8.50 UK seller.  I'm sure some of it is very amp-dependent. For the Crack - since it sounds like you have some top tubes already I think i'd only advise it as an inexpensive curiosity.  In the stock Crack/HD650 for my ears I would take the Thomson over a GE6080 or an RCA 6080 and probably also the Sylvania 6080s I tried, but not too many of the others.  It's a nice tube for £8.50. 
  
 Jeb.


----------



## Oskari

jeb listens said:


> I did a bit more digging and the only information i've been able to find is that on other GEC valves the numbers apparently follow some kind of chronological order with the number "6" being used from around '45 to '53, then "10" until '56 and then "4" from 1957-8 -  this fits with mine which is a 1957 and has a "4".
> 
> Although it seems like most of the 6AS7/A1834 were likely made at Hammersmith, on other GEC models the same mysterious number can be found on valves that were known to have been manufactured at different factories - so it seems its unlikely to be any kind of factory location code.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Those numbers are a bit of a mess, aren't they? I've seen it speculated that the number might refer to a production line. This could explain several numbers for one factory as well as several factories for one number.


----------



## Jeb Listens

oskari said:


> Those numbers are a bit of a mess, aren't they? I've seen it speculated that the number might refer to a production line. This could explain several numbers for one factory as well as several factories for one number.


 

 Yes indeed Oskari...not a bad shout, at all.   Seems very plausible. 
  
 It might be some red-herring cooked up by disgruntled factory workers to screw with the heads of audiophiles 50 years down the road. Obviously the bosses got wind of it in '59.


----------



## SonicTrance

jeb listens said:


> Yes indeed Oskari...not a bad shout, at all.   Seems very plausible.
> 
> It might be some red-herring cooked up by disgruntled factory workers to screw with the heads of audiophiles 50 years down the road. Obviously the bosses got wind of it in '59.




Haha, just was I was thinking, lol


----------



## Badas

Mistake post. sorry. Silly iPad.


----------



## Badas

Okay. I have rolled and compared the GE to the GEC. Excuse me if there is spelling errors. It was a bloody late night last night. Plus I'm up too early again. It it Saturday AM here.

I'm probably not going to be popular here. I'm stunned myself. Last night I rolled in the GE and immediately liked the GE more than the GEC. I said I was going to test if they are close. To my ears they are not. The GE is nicer. 

After getting that shock I ended up installing tube saves from all the rolling (pictured above) and started from scratch. I reinstalled the GEC's and listened. Turned my amp off and rolled the tubes while the GEC's were piping hot. Instantly the GE's won. It's a toe tapping kinda thing. The GE's draw me right in. There is better synergy. 

Speaking of synergy. The mileage out of the different tubes will depend on other things in the chain. I'm using iPod in Arcam dock sending coax into Arcam DAC into Woo WA22. Brimar 5Z4GY rectifier, Tung-Sol round plate 6C8G drivers then the different power tubes into the Audeze LCD-X. 

I do admit I prefer a very slight coloured sound. Pushed in the mid-range. The Mullard and the GE's have more mid-range magic. The GEC and Thomson are more neutral. 

If I was going to rank the tubes that I own and put a point score it will look like this:

(Best first, assuming the best is a 10 the other scores are a percentage of the 10)

Mullard 6080 - 10. It has everything. Doesn't slip in any area. Sweet rendered treble, mid-range warmth that is clean and clear, deep bass and great soundstage with great instrument separation.

GE 6AS7G - 9.8. As above. All the same qualities at a fraction of the price. Slightly less mid-range. Leans slightly closer to neutral. What is interesting is the comments on the 50's and 60''s version potentially being warmer. This could bring it right on Mullard level. The fantastic thing about this tube is the price and availability. I have seen this for sale around the world with plenty of stock. We all don't have to tumble over each other to get stock.

GEC 6080 - 9.3. No doubt a nice tube. Very neutral. No push in the frequency range. For those who look for neutrality this is your top tier tube. Frequency seems flat throughout. Treble rendered so well. Great soundstage and instrument separation.

GE 6080 - 9.3. My stock issued tube. A excellent tube. Similar to GE 6AS7G just a tad less of everything. Slightly less mid-range, soundstage and instrument separation. Very close tho. One day I will use this tube in its entirety and be very happy with it. 

Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G or 6520 - 9. Super lush. Tilted towards neutral. Very holographic. Nice wide soundstage. Very clean sounding. 

Thomson 6080 - 9. Fantastic tube. Silky. Probably more silky than the GEC. Also very neutral. I will spend more time with this tube this week. Hence the tube saves. I think with even more hours this tube will improve. Could get very close to the GEC. Like the GE is so close to the Mullard.

Bendix 6080 - 8.9. No slotted plates version. Very neutral. Closest tube to Solid State. Not a fan of these type of tubes. I don't get the point. Just buy a solid state amp. Similar sound to Thomson. However Thomson has a more silky tube character.

Sylvania 6080 - 8.5. Such a lush treble rich tube. I like owning this tube. If you want to hear how far the silky sound can get pushed then try this tube. Not neutral. Leans to bright. Not harsh just brighter. Incredible soundstage. 

Tung-Sol 7236 - 8. A long way behind. My main criticism is bass. It is out of control and gets very muddied. I don't get the hype for this tube.

RCA 6AS7G type. 7.5. Often re-badged. I own RCA, Sylvania, Tung-Sol and Raytheon. Typical RCA. Treble rolled. Very dark. Good for taming other brighter tubes in the system but nothing else. 

Russian 6N13 - 7.5. It is okay. Nice mid-range. Frequencies do get a bit muddled. However it gives it a more analog sounding quality. Not the best soundstage. Slightly better treble than the RCA 6AS7G. 

As always. These are my opinions and results. On my system. Others will have different experiences and gear. 

I would also like to add that there is two flavours here. Warm and neutral. Warm suits my gear and taste. However in some situations a neutral power tube may be more desired.

So I suggest the following:

Warm: My very best is Mullard 6080. Very close runner up for a lot less $$'s is GE 6AS7G.

Neutral: My very best is GEC6080. Very close runner up for a lot less $$'s is Thomson 6080. Also consider Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G.

Really these tubes are not better or worse than each other, they are just different flavours. For example the soundstage and instrument separation of the Mullard and GEC are so close. It is the mid-range that makes them different. Choose the flavour needed for your particular system.


----------



## Jeb Listens

As fun as this hobby is - all that tube rolling & comparison takes a lot of effort and concentration too - not to mention the money.   Great work.


----------



## whirlwind

Thank you for sharing that, Badas.......nice work.


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> I'm probably not going to be popular here.


 
  
 It's not a popularity contest. Differing opinions should be encouraged.


----------



## Badas

oskari said:


> It's not a popularity contest. Differing opinions should be encouraged.




Thanks.

I would also like to add that there is two flavours here. Warm and neutral. Warm suits my gear and taste. However in some situations a neutral power tube may be more desired.

So I suggest the following.

Warm: My very best is Mullard 6080. Very close runner up for a lot less $$'s is GE 6AS7G.

Neutral: My very best is GEC6080. Very close runner up for a lot less $$'s is Thomson 6080. Also consider Chatham / Tung-Sol 6AS7G.

Really these tubes are not better or worse than each other they are just different flavours. For example the soundstage and instrument separation of the Mullard and GEC are so close. It is the mid-range that makes them different. Chose the flavour needed for your particular system.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> Okay. I have rolled and compared the GE to the GEC. Excuse me if there is spelling errors. It was a bloody late night last night. Plus I'm up too early again. It it Saturday AM here.
> 
> I'm probably not going to be popular here. I'm stunned myself. Last night I rolled in the GE and immediately liked the GE more than the GEC. I said I was going to test if they are close. To my ears they are not. The GE is nicer.
> 
> ...


 
  
  

 I agree with your assessment of these fine tubes in your collection with exception to the GEC 6080's as I don't own that tube, I think as you the mullard 6080's are among the finest sounding 6080's. I do although prefer the RCA 6AS7G's over the Sylvania 6080's (I sold all of mine). You might also want to include in your collection at least 1 pair of either Tung Sol or Chatham 6080's I find their sound is near the top of my list..Enjoy


----------



## Aussie Lou

badas said:


> After getting that shock I ended up installing tube saves from all the rolling (pictured above) and started from scratch.


 
 I figured that these are not the Chinese savers, are they from Glenn?


----------



## Badas

aussie lou said:


> I figured that these are not the Chinese savers, are they from Glenn?




They are Chinese adapters. A really great guy of eBay. Handmade. Awesome quality. I haven't used them for a while as I have not needed them. I might leave them permanently installed on the power tubes as they help with heat not entering the chassis. 

Closer older pic:


----------



## Aussie Lou

badas said:


> They are Chinese adapters. A really great guy of eBay. Handmade. Awesome quality. I haven't used them for a while as I have not needed them. I might leave them permanently installed on the power tubes as they help with heat not entering the chassis.
> 
> Closer older pic:


 

 They look a lot more solid than what I can find.
  
 Do you a have a link for some as shown in your pic?


----------



## SonicTrance

aussie lou said:


> They look a lot more solid than what I can find.
> 
> Do you a have a link for some as shown in your pic?


 
 Here you go  I use them too and have no problems. They're high quality.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191109289479?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Aussie Lou

Thanks again! Have a set on the way.
  
 Found the link for this same seller since remembering seeing it posted here before.


----------



## whirlwind

My amp arrived today and my tubes that I have been buying for the last 6 months are finally being used.....it is going to be a great weekend.
  
 Using the Mullard 6080 power tubes and a Brimar 13D1, which is a 25SN7 and was recommended by Glenn.......I am going to listen all the way thru burn in


----------



## Badas

aussie lou said:


> Thanks again! Have a set on the way.
> 
> Found the link for this same seller since remembering seeing it posted here before.




Cool. Got is sorted. Sorry I was preoccupied yesterday.




whirlwind said:


> My amp arrived today and my tubes that I have been buying for the last 6 months are finally being used.....it is going to be a great weekend.
> 
> Using the Mullard 6080 power tubes and a Brimar 13D1, which is a 25SN7 and was recommended by Glenn.......I am going to listen all the way thru burn in




That is a lifetime amp. His work is real beautiful. Congrats.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> aussie lou said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks again! Have a set on the way.
> ...


 
 Thank you...it is definitely my dream amp.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Thank you...it is definitely my dream amp.




I'm thinking it will be a next year project. So I will appreciate your impressions. 

What amp have you come from?


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you...it is definitely my dream amp.
> ...


 
 Sure thing, I will give my impressions and will roll many tubes....but the tube rolling will have to wait for awhile...because frankly , I just want to enjoy the sound for now and burn my amp in.
  
 It sounds wonderful and I have so much music that i want to listen to, it is going to be a great experience.
  
 I am coming from a MAD Ear+HD....which is a fine amp, in its own right.


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I agree with your assessment of these fine tubes in your collection with exception to the GEC 6080's as I don't own that tube, I think as you the mullard 6080's are among the finest sounding 6080's. I do although prefer the RCA 6AS7G's over the Sylvania 6080's (I sold all of mine). You might also want to include in your collection at least 1 pair of either Tung Sol or Chatham 6080's I find their sound is near the top of my list..Enjoy




Is the Tung-Sol a warm flavour or neutral?


----------



## coinmaster

So I got my gec 6080s and mullard 6080s today. Now I have tungol 5998, thomson 6080, gec 6080, bendix 6080, mullard 6080, sovtek 6h13c.
 Note that my amp requires 4 power tubes, 2 tubes per channel, 1 positive, 1 negative, and I only have 4 of the sovtek and thomson. 
 So I've spent much time mixing power tubes and one thing has always remained constant. The thomsons always make every combination sound better even though 4 of them by themselves aren't that great. I mean you'd think like a bendix or a mullard thrown in there or something would be better.
 Also the gecs didn't sound that great, there was nothing special about their sound. That being said they have no burn in.
  
 Currently I'm using the mullard/thomson combo.


----------



## Badas

coinmaster said:


> So I got my gec 6080s and mullard 6080s today. Now I have tungol 5998, thomson 6080, gec 6080, bendix 6080, mullard 6080, sovtek 6h13c.
> Note that my amp requires 4 power tubes, 2 tubes per channel, 1 positive, 1 negative, and I only have 4 of the sovtek and thomson.
> So I've spent much time mixing power tubes and one thing has always remained constant. The thomsons always make every combination sound better even though 4 of them by themselves aren't that great. I mean you'd think like a bendix or a mullard thrown in there or something would be better.
> Also the gecs didn't sound that great, there was nothing special about their sound. That being said they have no burn in.
> ...




I agree with the GEC. Didn't grab me. I bet the Mullard mixed with GEC would work tho.


----------



## abvolt

To my ears the ts 6080's are warm they have a rolled off treble and a prominent mid-bass their my second to the mullard 6080.


----------



## mordy

Hi Badas,
  
 The GE tubes, are they 6AS7G or 6AS7GA?
  
 Personally, I only have experience with the GE 6AS7GA. I have seen GE 6AS7G but I think that they are RCA re-branded tubes (may be wrong on this).
  
 Here is a picture:


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> Hi Badas,
> 
> The GE tubes, are they 6AS7G or 6AS7GA?
> 
> ...




GE6AS7GA is the tube I use.

The pictured tube is interesting. Not a RCA as it doesn't have the flap covering the bottom wires. Not Chataham / Tung-Sol either as it doesn't have the silver plates to hold vertical plates to the micra. 

It is something I haven't seen before.


----------



## adeadcrab

GE 6AS7G/A are both the same tubes, the A version is a straight bottle is the only difference. Whether they are rebranded RCA or not I don't know.


----------



## mordy

The GA version is only made by GE but can appear in re-branded form.


----------



## UntilThen

I happen to have these 3 power tubes besides others. Just want to share a quick impression on these. These are my opinions YMMV.
  
 First some pictures. RCA 6AS7GA, GE 6AS7GA and GE 6AS7G. Notice that though I bought a pair of GE 6AS7G the constructions are different. One has top getter while the other has bottom getter, the latter even have copper rods !!!
  
 My impressions:- they are very similar, I cannot pick out any noticeable difference and all in all pretty musical power tubes to listen to. Later when I have more time with the Chatham 6AS7G, Mullard 6080 and Tung Sol 5998 I'll give my impressions.
  
 L to R:- RCA 6AS7GA, GE 6AS7GA, RCA 6SN7

  
 Left GE 6AS7G has bottom getters and copper rods. Right has top getters.


----------



## 3083joe

When I get home this evening. (Been out for the weekend) I'm going to test the mullard 6080 vs GEC 6as7g and see.


----------



## Skylab

adeadcrab said:


> GE 6AS7G/A are both the same tubes, the A version is a straight bottle is the only difference. Whether they are rebranded RCA or not I don't know.




Don't forget that GE always had its tenticles in RCA to varying degrees over the years.


----------



## 2359glenn

skylab said:


> adeadcrab said:
> 
> 
> > GE 6AS7G/A are both the same tubes, the A version is a straight bottle is the only difference. Whether they are rebranded RCA or not I don't know.
> ...


 

 GE started RCA on the US government request. Early RCA tubes had RCA on one side and GE on the other.
 GE has always ben in bed with the US government most of it's fighter planes have GE engines.


----------



## hypnos1

3083joe said:


> When I get home this evening. (Been out for the weekend) I'm going to test the mullard 6080 vs GEC 6as7g and see.


 
  
 Aahh...now you're talkin' - just _love_ my CV2523s (especially when driven by the Mullard ECC31s, lol!).
  
 Your test should be very interesting...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> When I get home this evening. (Been out for the weekend) I'm going to test the mullard 6080 vs GEC 6as7g and see.


 
  
 It will be interesting if you pick up the Mullards warm tone. To my ears they are similar in respects of soundstage, instrument separation, pace and silkyness. Just different in tone. Mullard warm. GEC neutral.


----------



## 3083joe

I like warmth so I'm imaging i will like them.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> I like warmth so I'm imaging i will like them.


 

 Do me a favor please. Listen for noise.
  
 Mullards were not fun in my WA22. My WA22 was built a year ago and yours is recent I think. My understanding is Woo fixed the power circuit problem.


----------



## UntilThen

My Mullards are dead silent in the Darkvoice.


----------



## Badas

untilthen said:


> My Mullards are dead silent in the Darkvoice.


 

 I probably should have purchased one of those. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Actually a lot happier with the WA22 power tubes situation now.
  
 Now I've tested most power tubes. The Mullards would have been my pick. Big soundstage, clean, clear and warm. Unfortunately not reliably quiet in my amp.
 Since testing all the others and finding the GE6AS7GA's are so close to the Mullards that itch has been scratched. I fairly sure if I had two WA22 loaded with the different power tubes (Mullard and GE) I would not have picked a difference in a blind test. So GE is good enough for me. I have 7 sets. I plan to buy 7 more.
  
 Looks cool in my amp with the tube saves as well. I've decided to keep the saves installed. I have noticed less heat in the chassis. As the tubes are further away the heat is in the air.


----------



## UntilThen

Very nice looking WA22. The DV is a boy wonder. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm getting Elise next month, same tubes compliments as DV but twice as many.
 Don't you think your picture would have look nicer with these? Just kidding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure your sound is awesome.


----------



## whirlwind

Mullard6080 are dead quiet in my amp....just threw in the Chatham 6AS7G to see if they are as quiet, and I am glad to report that they indeed are.


----------



## Badas

untilthen said:


> Very nice looking WA22. The DV is a boy wonder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  





 You prick! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 No. I am done with that itch. GE's are fine. I do have one set of Mullards (out of six tubes) that are quiet. I will use them one day.
  


whirlwind said:


> Mullard6080 are dead quiet in my amp....just threw in the Chatham 6AS7G to see if they are as quiet, and I am glad to report that they indeed are.


 
  
 Yeah, don't worry about noisy tubes. It is my amp. A noisy power tube circuit. Only happens on some brands of tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

5998 are the ones that really stands out for me but then I've not heard the 421A or GEC 6AS7G and I probably won't at the outrageous price they are going for.


----------



## abvolt

I'm anxious to hear what others who own ecc31's are saying I'd sure like to give them a try not nearly as pricey as the GEC 6as7g's..


----------



## UntilThen

I'm sure Hypnos1 and Gibosi will give their impressions on the ECC31 driver tubes. They love it. I am waiting for a pair to arrive for the Elise.


----------



## gibosi

abvolt said:


> I'm anxious to hear what others who own ecc31's are saying I'd sure like to give them a try not nearly as pricey as the GEC 6as7g's..


 
  
 ??? I am not sure I understand....  The ECC31 is not a power tube. It is a driver.


----------



## 3083joe

abvolt said:


> I'm anxious to hear what others who own ecc31's are saying I'd sure like to give them a try not nearly as pricey as the GEC 6as7g's..



I think you mean ecc32s not GEC 6as7gs 
Mine will be here in about a week or so.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> ??? I am not sure I understand....  The ECC31 is not a power tube. It is a driver.



Correct will not replace GEC 6as7gs


----------



## abvolt

gibosi said:


> ??? I am not sure I understand....  The ECC31 is not a power tube. It is a driver.


 
 yes my mistake..


----------



## UntilThen

Yes that's why I pointed out 'ECC31 driver tubes' as opposed to GEC 6AS7G power tubes.


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> I think you mean ecc32s not GEC 6as7gs
> Mine will be here in about a week or so.


 
  
 You will be getting a pair of ECC32? If you would be willing to send one on to me, I would be happy to compare it to the ECC31.


----------



## Jeb Listens

With the HD-650s the Mullards had certain glowing liquid qualities in the mids that none of the others quite had.  But for lots of music it just turned into rich warm-soup.  It was fun... & I like soup - but probably not all the time. It could sound too slow.  Noticeably rolled at both ends but nice texture in the middle.  Lovely with intimate, organic sounding music with limited number of real instruments and a very small dynamic range.  More complex bass-lines could sound quite muddled.  Lacking in precision & definition.  Thick.  Air, detail and separation is sacrificed in favour of a mid-centric experience.  Luscious & smokey.  Juicy.  But Soft as hell.  Compromises the 650s technical abilities.  I quite like it though. 
  
 GEC 6AS7/A1834 -  seemed to be a more complete & dynamic tube.  Less warm but still presents a good dose of the classic sound. Sharper resolution, faster & a more even tonal balance from top to bottom.  However,  since they cost almost as much as the amp I am using, I think the value in my case is probably pretty questionable.  
  
 I feel they offer a slightly different experience to the GEC 6080. The 6AS7G seems to have a grander scale and solidity to the notes.  It sounds very pure, natural & unfiltered to me.  The GEC 6080 is perhaps marginally more restrained, delicate, but has some imaging prowess that might even be better than the big bottle.  In comparing the two GECs, If someone wasn't wild about the 6080, I probably wouldn't recommend the 6AS7G - they are most definitely from the same stable.  Probably safe to skip it. 

  
 For me - all the above NOS British tubes are on the warm side of the track, and I would choose something US (or Soviet) e.g. the 5998, Winged-C, Bendix, or Tung-Sol 6080 for a sound that is drier but with more impact & bite - if that’s your thing.  These might also allow a greater impact & range of choices with driver tube / headphone changes too.
  
 This is with Rega Dac / Stock-Crack / HD-650 / Mullard CV4003 as driver. 
  
 YMMV and all that jazz.


----------



## UntilThen

Which gets more playtime. The Crack or the Wa7.


----------



## Jeb Listens

untilthen said:


> Which gets more playtime. The Crack or the Wa7.


 

 Probably the former.  The WA7 has a better handle on all the technicalities and sounds like a more mature amp but I just find the Crack more enjoyable with the HD-650s specifically.  The synergy is magical.   To be honest, It's hard to be objective about the Crack - it was as much about challenging myself as it was having a good amp at the end of it all.  Unless you need to be super-objective for a review, I think it all probably contributes to the listening experience.
  
 The WA7 was nice with the LCD-2s but I've discovered I just don't have the neck-stamina for Audezes, unfortunately


----------



## JamieMcC

jeb listens said:


> Probably the former.  The WA7 has a better handle on all the technicalities and sounds like a more mature amp but I just find the Crack more enjoyable with the HD-650s specifically.  The synergy is magical.   To be honest, It's hard to be objective about the Crack - it was as much about challenging myself as it was having a good amp at the end of it all.  Unless you need to be super-objective for a review, I think it all probably contributes to the listening experience.
> 
> The WA7 was nice with the LCD-2s but I've discovered I just don't have the neck-stamina for Audezes, unfortunately


 

  James wait to you get the Speedball  those film caps and the choke all fitted in your Crack I suspect your really going to like the results.


----------



## Jeb Listens

jamiemcc said:


> James wait to you get the Speedball  those film caps and the choke all fitted in your Crack I suspect your really going to like the results.


 

 Jamie - Should be epic! Did the Speedball change your 6080/6AS7G preference vs the stock unit ?  I thought I read somewhere that tube-rolling post SB might be less impactful ?


----------



## JamieMcC

jeb listens said:


> Jamie - Should be epic! Did the Speedball change your 6080/6AS7G preference vs the stock unit ?  I thought I read somewhere that tube-rolling post SB might be less impactful ?


 
  
 That's a surprisingly loaded question and I have  been pondering on how best to explain but here is my take.
  
 With the Speedball (constant current source) some of the classic and engaging tubyness differences between tubes for want of a better word gets toned down.  
 For me the pluses the Speedball brings far out weigh the lack of syrupiness of differing tubes.
  
 I will say Speedball will get a lot more performance out of your tubes from top to bottom consequently the more premium tubes will start to shine and a lot of the 6080's bar a few will all start to sound all a bit similar.
  
 After getting used to a tricked out Crack going back to the stock one for any length of time would be a bit of a challenge as I would be all to aware now of what I was missing!
  
 My own tube preference would be something like this and are the tubes I have ended up hanging on to
  
 1 GEC 6AS7G without doubt my favourite tube.
 2 Tung sol 5998 clear top (1950's)
 3 WE421a                    
 4 Tungsol 5998
 567 GEC, Bendix, Mullard, 6080
 8 Winged C
  
 Normally I would run a 5,6,7,8 as daily drivers swapping up to a premium tube for more optimal occasions when its possible to concentrate on enjoying the music without distractions.


----------



## JazzVinyl

jamiemcc said:


> My own tube preference would be something like this and are the tubes I have ended up hanging on to
> 1 GEC 6AS7G without doubt my favourite tube.
> 2 Tung sol 5998 clear top (1950's)
> 3 WE421a
> ...


 
  
 That's a really a big part of mega tube enjoyment, isn't it? 
  
 Being able to devote your undistracted attention. 
  
 .


----------



## 3083joe

B





jamiemcc said:


> That's a surprisingly loaded question and I have  been pondering on how best to explain but here is my take.
> 
> With the Speedball (constant current source) some of the classic and engaging tubyness differences between tubes for want of a better word gets toned down.
> For me the pluses the Speedball brings far out weigh the lack of syrupiness of differing tubes.
> ...



Lovvvve the GEC 6as7 
Great tube!


----------



## mordy

Can somebody tell me if the right tube in the picture is a Russian tube? (says Made in Germany)


----------



## Badas

Yip. Russian.

No flap down the bottom and large plate in the top section.

Lol. Russian made, American brand and wrong country stamped. Classic fake.


----------



## adeadcrab

^ flying saucer design at the bottom = 6H13C


----------



## mordy

Yep, thought so. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.


----------



## MIKELAP

adeadcrab said:


> ^ flying saucer design at the bottom = 6H13C


 
 Here's an example i have


----------



## abvolt

mordy said:


> Can somebody tell me if the right tube in the picture is a Russian tube? (says Made in Germany)


 
  
 I see a lot of those being sold on ebay with every name imageable printed on the tube just cheap Russian tubes that don't sound all that great it's the  flying saucer getrs that give them away..


----------



## Dogmatrix

abvolt said:


> I see a lot of those being sold on ebay with every name imageable printed on the tube just cheap Russian tubes that don't sound all that great it's the  flying saucer getrs that give them away..


 

 Big plus one there
 First made in Germany one I have seen but there are heaps of made in USA/England around
 I did notice many sellers angle the picture so the flying saucers are hidden


----------



## Badas

dogmatrix said:


> Big plus one there
> First made in Germany one I have seen but there are heaps of made in USA/England around
> I did notice many sellers angle the picture so the flying saucers are hidden


 

 There are other features tho:
  
 1. The funny colouring on the glass on the bottom near the base.
 2. No flap on the bottom of the plates. Only the Russian and Tung-Sol / Chatham do this.
 3. The Russian has a large plate above the main horozontal plates. Often with a indentation. No other do this. RCA and Tung-sol are half the size.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> There are other features tho:
> 
> 1. The funny colouring on the glass on the bottom near the base.
> 2. No flap on the bottom of the plates. Only the Russian and Tung-Sol / Chatham do this.
> 3. The Russian has a large plate above the main horozontal plates. Often with a indentation. No other do this. RCA and Tung-sol are half the size.


 
  
 Yes that is right thanks, about your noisey tube problem have you ever  talked to glen about modding or replacing all the caps in your wa22 just a thought not sure if that would even help, I used to have a web address that did that very thing can't find it though..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> Yes that is right thanks, about your noisey tube problem have you ever  talked to glen about modding or replacing all the caps in your wa22 just a thought not sure if that would even help, I used to have a web address that did that very thing can't find it though..


 
  
 No. I can't. I live in New Zealand. So too far away.
  
 I'm going to get in line for a Glenn amp soon.
  
 Thinking of 4x 6080 power tubes, C3G drivers and whatever rectifier he recommends.
  
 Then the Woo WA22 will move to the main lounge. Glenn amp in the Home Theater.


----------



## 3083joe

Canceled the GEC 6080s and changed to 5998s 
Think I'll be happier with them. Not to much more money either. 
They are rebranded Heintz Kaufman



Also a set of GEC 6as7 black base to compare to the Browns.


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Canceled the GEC 6080s and changed to 5998s
> Think I'll be happier with them. Not to much more money either.
> They are rebranded Heintz Kaufman
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice looking tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

Those 5998 are amazing. I have just gotten a new pair.


----------



## whirlwind

3083joe said:


> Canceled the GEC 6080s and changed to 5998s
> Think I'll be happier with them. Not to much more money either.
> They are rebranded Heintz Kaufman
> 
> ...


 
 Congrats on those 5998
  
 I have been listening to these in Glenns amp and good lord...they are very dynamic...you should have fun.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I paired mine with a Ken Rad VT231 Black Glass for the time being.......really loving my blues music with this combo.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah yes Ken Rad vt231 and 5998 I can only imagine. I run RCA 6SN7GT Smoke Glass vt231 and 5998 and it's heavenly....especially on blues but even classic rock...Keith Richards.


----------



## MIKELAP

3083joe said:


> Canceled the GEC 6080s and changed to 5998s
> Think I'll be happier with them. Not to much more money either.
> They are rebranded Heintz Kaufman
> 
> ...


 
 Love the boxes


----------



## john57

3083joe said:


> Canceled the GEC 6080s and changed to 5998s
> Think I'll be happier with them. Not to much more money either.
> They are rebranded Heintz Kaufman
> 
> ...


 
 I also have a pair of rebranded Heintz Kaufman tubes in older boxes with a thick cotton padding and the printing, largest I have seen, is all over the tube in two colors not on the base.


----------



## mordy

Hi John57,
  
 It ain't got a thing if it ain't got that swing - pictures please!


----------



## Badas

I have been doing some more evaluation of the Thomson 6080 the past few days.

The tube must now be getting close to burnt in.

Impressions are very good. I would put this tube up high on the to try list.

Unlike Mullards and GE tubes this tube is extended. I would put it in the same camp and similar sound as the GEC6080. 

Trebles extended but sweetly rendered. Sounded a tad cold when new. With a few hours on them it has a nice tube warmth creeping through. Not sure if my other tubes are contributing to the warmth. Probably. The TS driver has a fair amount of natural warmth. 
At first I thought there was something odd about this tube. For a while I thought it was tonality. I then tested with my SS amp and can now report it is slightly different but generally very similar. I'm not sure if tonality has improved with usage or I was not use to the extra treble. However now I have dismissed a tonality shift. Sounds bang on now. 

I will post more impressions in the next week if wanted. I need to test low end bass as well. It has made a good impression. Nice and quiet in my problematic amp. So I am considering more stock.

Lastly. The tube heights are funny. Three different tubes all with different tube glass heights. All have the same internal construction just different glass. I put it down to the French not caring about cosmetics.


----------



## whirlwind

I tried the Thompson  6080's for a couple of days, it is pretty good .
  
 I took it out before i got it totally burned in, but I did like it....I much preferred the GEC 6080 though.
  
 Maybe once the Thompson is fully burned in.
  
 The price is nice on the Thompson 6080.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> I tried the Thompson  6080's for a couple of days, it is pretty good .
> 
> I took it out before i got it totally burned in, but I did like it....I much preferred the GEC 6080 though.
> 
> ...




Lol. I just handed to my wife. Her comments were "Ouch! Get those *****ers out" 

I guess we both prefer a darker sound signature. I was trying to convince myself that I could listen to a higher treble like most other members. 
I think I will just roll back my GE 6AS7GA's and leave it alone. 

I would put the Thomson in the higher treble camp tho. Similar to GEC.
Mullard and GE as darker. I know a little over simplified.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I tried the Thompson  6080's for a couple of days, it is pretty good .
> ...


 
 Ha ha ha


----------



## abvolt

cool glad to hear what others think about this tube never tried one probably won't thanks for your impressions..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> cool glad to hear what others think about this tube never tried one probably won't thanks for your impressions..




I think if your signature tends towards neutral then the Thomson should be tried.
By my own admission my signature is warm to dark. Hence two Audeze HP's. However as others have pointed out it can be veiled. I agree. Don't disguard Thomson because it does not suit mine or my wife's taste.


----------



## Badas

I'm going to yank out the Thomsons for my next tube session. So I thought I better test bass response.

Very good guys. As good as some of the best.


----------



## Aussie Lou

badas said:


> Lastly. The tube heights are funny. Three different tubes all with different tube glass heights. All have the same internal construction just different glass. I put it down to the French not caring about cosmetics.


 
  
 Where did you order from?
  
 I received a couple pairs from this seller: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/171753209664?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 No difference in height, maybe I was lucky.


----------



## Badas

aussie lou said:


> Where did you order from?
> 
> I received a couple pairs from this seller: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/171753209664?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> No difference in height, maybe I was lucky.




Here you go. I photoed their card and triied to capture the different height phenomenon.



All tubes are in the same position at the base. Check out the different tube heights. 

Great seller by the way. 8.50 pound each. Delivered in a week and sent extra tube. It can't get better than that.

Rolled in GE6AS7GA. Damn I like this tube. What hasn't been talked about is how dynamic this tube is. Very noticeable. Definitely enough of everything for my taste.


----------



## Aussie Lou

badas said:


> Here you go. I photoed their card and triied to capture the different height phenomenon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Did they start growing laying down in their overly large boxes


----------



## Badas

aussie lou said:


> Did they start growing laying down in their overly large boxes




Oh!  great theory.


----------



## whirlwind

By the size of the boxes they came in , they could easily grow to be 5998 or maybe even some 300B  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I think I will leave my third one in the box, just to see....fingers crossed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I do like the tubes, they have a nice tone.


----------



## kchew

I still don't get why the Thomson boxes need to be so huge, they are taking up valuable space in my tube cabinet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 That said, I have rolled in right now, and I find them to be great value. They are hard to fault, maybe not on the same level as the premium 6AS7s, but they do many things pretty well. I also like the fact that they look so pristine looking with very clean interiors, as if they were just made this decade.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> Here you go. I photoed their card and triied to capture the different height phenomenon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I wonder if this is the same tube that Parts connexion have.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Lastly. The tube heights are funny. Three different tubes all with different tube glass heights. All have the same internal construction just different glass. I put it down to the French not caring about cosmetics.


 
  
 Re: Thompson 6080s... Do these tubes have the same dates? That is, FSE-7949?


----------



## whirlwind

I think it is, I believe someone posted last week they had it for like $9.99


----------



## i luvmusic 2

whirlwind said:


> I think it is, I believe someone posted last week they had it for like $9.99


 
 Ok Thanks!


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> Re: Thompson 6080s... Do these tubes have the same dates? That is, FSE-7949?


 

 I will check tonight.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi....mine are this number
  
 FSE  7949   FF
  
 not sure how to read this code....is it 49th week of 1979 ?


----------



## gibosi

Yes, that's how I read that code.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> Yes, that's how I read that code.


 
 OK...Thanks.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I received the 4 Thompson 6080 tubes that i ordered monday and wow the tube box are huge.


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I received the 4 Thompson 6080 tubes that i ordered monday and wow the tube box are huge.


 

 Crazy stuff aye.
  
 They certainly won't get broken.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > I received the 4 Thompson 6080 tubes that i ordered monday and wow the tube box are huge.
> ...


 
 All 4 tubes looks like brand new to me looks clean the base and the pins are shiny specially the metal base it looks like chrome plated.


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> All 4 tubes looks like brand new to me looks clean the base and the pins are shiny specially the metal base it looks like chrome plated.


 

 Are they all the same heights? I got 3 all with different heights.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > All 4 tubes looks like brand new to me looks clean the base and the pins are shiny specially the metal base it looks like chrome plated.
> ...


 
 Yes all 4 are the same height and code (7727).


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> badas said:
> 
> 
> > i luvmusic 2 said:
> ...


 
 Do they sound similar to anything you already have .


----------



## i luvmusic 2

mikelap said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > badas said:
> ...


 
 With the stock crack it sound similar to my Chatham 6AS7G at least to my ears.For $9.99US each it's pretty darn good.


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> With the stock crack it *sound similar to my Chatham 6AS7G* at least to my ears.For $9.99US each it's pretty darn good.


 
  
 I would agree with that. Similar signature. Not as holographic as the Chatham tho.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > With the stock crack it *sound similar to my Chatham 6AS7G* at least to my ears.For $9.99US each it's pretty darn good.
> ...


 
 For the price i can't complain it is very good.Oh and i thank you for bringing up this tube.


----------



## masterfuu

hey guys,  sort of new to tubes. Have WA3 and looking to replace both power and drive tubes. I know this thread has lots of info would someone be able to recommend me some quiet , quality tubes?
  
 I do not like huge sound stage I like tubey sound and I like bass to have some punch. Thanks


----------



## adeadcrab

Bendix 6080 bass punch; smooth though not extreme tube sound.


----------



## Mechans1

Mullard 6080 great tone well balanced frequency response.
  It's easier to find and less expensive are the Sylvania 6080.
 I don't know your amp but if it can take a larger glass envelope tube, are the Tung Sol 5998s. 
 The 5998s are like the WE421A (holy grail).


----------



## UntilThen

5998 has great bass impact and extends deep. The whole frequency spectrum comes alive. Buy a pair and never look back.


----------



## whirlwind

mechans1 said:


> Mullard 6080 great tone well balanced frequency response.
> It's easier to find and less expensive are the Sylvania 6080.
> I don't know your amp but if it can take a larger glass envelope tube, are the Tung Sol 5998s.
> The 5998s are like the WE421A (holy grail).


 
 I really like the Mullard 6080 also, paired with B36 Driver  and HD800 right now....wonderful
  


untilthen said:


> 5998 has great bass impact and extends deep. The whole frequency spectrum comes alive. Buy a pair and never look back.


 
 Yeah, it is real nice, indeed.


----------



## UntilThen

Besides the 5998, I also really like the Mullard 6080 and Chatham 6AS7G. The former sounds fast and exciting to me with a tightly controlled bass. Chatham are just the tube to settle down for the evening with a glass of wine and some great music.


----------



## Badas

untilthen said:


> Besides the 5998, I also really like the Mullard 6080 and Chatham 6AS7G. The former sounds fast and exciting to me with a tightly controlled bass. Chatham are just the tube to settle down for the evening with a glass of wine and some great music.


 

 Both are great tubes. I like how you described the Chatham 6AS7G and you are right. A very holographic tube. Just a tad too bright for my taste.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Here you go. I photoed their card and triied to capture the different height phenomenon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Valvetubes.com is the best. Kef is a great guy.


----------



## 3083joe

Wow 
I have just got my first set of 5998s and man it's a good sounding tube. 
Very nice bass response , lots of air, transparency and wide sound stage. Very impressed with them compared to GEC 6as7. The two are different, GEC more laid back dark maybe. Not the 5998 tho. Similar soundstage but more bass and really all frequencies. 
Need to listen more. And for only 145 no complaint here.


----------



## UntilThen

Nice Joe.   First time hearing 5998 is like tasting honey for the first time.
  
 145 for single? Paid $234 for my new pair on auction.
  
 Nvm you said a pair and that's really good value.


----------



## gibosi

If one is patient... and lucky, sometimes good deals pop up. Recently picked these up for $100. 
  
 It is interesting that they have black bases and two small cup getters. The others I commonly see have brown bases and only one cup getter. But then, these are rather old. One was manufactured in December, 1949 and the other, January, 1950. The tube type printed on the tube is A1834 and I don't think the seller knew what he had...
  

  
 Edit: Change A1839 to A1834


----------



## 3083joe

untilthen said:


> Nice Joe.   First time hearing 5998 is like tasting honey for the first time.
> 
> 145 for single? Paid $234 for my new pair on auction.
> 
> Nvm you said a pair and that's really good value.


 
 Yes very happy!


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> If one is patient... and lucky, sometimes good deals pop up. Recently picked these up for $100.
> 
> It is interesting that they have black bases and two small cup getters. The others I commonly see have brown bases and only one cup getter. But then, these are rather old. One was manufactured in December, 1949 and the other, January, 1950. The tube type printed on the tube is A1839 and I don't think the seller knew what he had...


 
  

 NICE!!!!


----------



## whirlwind

Yeah, those are some real beauties, gibosi


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> If one is patient... and lucky, sometimes good deals pop up. Recently picked these up for $100.
> 
> It is interesting that they have black bases and two small cup getters. The others I commonly see have brown bases and only one cup getter. But then, these are rather old. One was manufactured in December, 1949 and the other, January, 1950. The tube type printed on the tube is A1839 and I don't think the seller knew what he had...


 
 Nice! I've never actually seen the black base ones before. And A1839? Was that the name before A1834?


----------



## whirlwind

^^ Yeah, what a beautiful tube.....i just stared at those, for like two minutes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ^^


----------



## gibosi

sonictrance said:


> Nice! I've never actually seen the black base ones before. And A1839? Was that the name before A1834?


 
  
 No, it's just bad typing on my part. The silk-screened number on these tubes is A1834. Will edit my post above to make this correction.
  
 Cheers


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> No, it's just bad typing on my part. The silk-screened number on these tubes is A1834. Will edit my post above to make this correction.
> 
> Cheers


 
 Aaah, I see. I started searching like crazy for A1839's. Didn't find anything, lol


----------



## Badas

^

Absolutely stunning tubes. Good find. I have never seen these before. Thanks for posting.


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Wow
> I have just got my first set of 5998s and man it's a good sounding tube.
> Very nice bass response , lots of air, transparency and wide sound stage. Very impressed with them compared to GEC 6as7. The two are different, GEC more laid back dark maybe. Not the 5998 tho. Similar soundstage but more bass and really all frequencies.


 
  
 When comparing the 5998 to 6AS7/6080, it is important to remember that the 5998 has an amplification factor almost 3 times higher than the 6AS7, 5.5 for the 5998 and only 2.0 for the 6AS7. Thus, when rolling in the 5998 after listening to GEC 6AS7, with the volume knob set the same, everything certainly seems bigger, bolder and sharper. However, once I reduce the volume to compensate for the difference in amplification, the major difference I hear is an increased treble presence. Further, this heightened treble most certainly contributes to a sense of increased transparency, detail and air. And I would agree that in comparison, the GEC seems a bit more laid back, darker and maybe a bit warmer.
  
 Therefore, to my way of thinking, how one feels about this increased treble is the deciding factor between these two tubes. For those with bright headphones, the GEC might be the better choice. On the other hand, detail/treble freaks may prefer the 5998. Personally, with the HD700, a rather bright headphone, the 5998 treble seems a bit over the top, especially with bright drivers. Thus, given my ears and gear, I prefer the GEC. But of course, YMMV.


----------



## whirlwind

Ken, I agree that the 5998 amplification is way louder.
  
 I just rolled them in my amp from the Chatham 6AS7...I am using them in 5998 mode ....holy crap,  I turned the stepped attenuator down two steps !
  
 Oh, and I also threw in the ECC31  
  
 I am having a pretty fun time as I am typing this......Listening to Bob Seger - Ride Out
  
 All is well here


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> When comparing the 5998 to 6AS7/6080, it is important to remember that the 5998 has an amplification factor almost 3 times higher than the 6AS7, 5.5 for the 5998 and only 2.0 for the 6AS7. Thus, when rolling in the 5998 after listening to GEC 6AS7, with the volume knob set the same, everything certainly seems bigger, bolder and sharper. However, once I reduce the volume to compensate for the difference in amplification, the major difference I hear is an increased treble presence. Further, this heightened treble most certainly contributes to a sense of increased transparency, detail and air. And I would agree that in comparison, the GEC seems a bit more laid back, darker and maybe a bit warmer.
> 
> Therefore, to my way of thinking, how one feels about this increased treble is the deciding factor between these two tubes. For those with bright headphones, the GEC might be the better choice. On the other hand, detail/treble freaks may prefer the 5998. Personally, with the HD700, a rather bright headphone, the 5998 treble seems a bit over the top, especially with bright drivers. Thus, given my ears and gear, I prefer the GEC. But of course, YMMV.



I agree with your thoughts. The 5998 is way more power. I still prefer the GEC better. Just fill the 5998s help with the lack of base I notice with wa22. 5998 seem a bit wider but that could for sure be the amplification. Often I struggle with turning my amp up to 3/4 to get the sound o want with the wa22. But with 5998 it's 1/2 max. 
GEC is more laid back I think. Which I prefer more. 5998 are high in treble. Not as bad on hd800s compared to 700 tho. 
GEC will go back in. 
Have any of you tried the black base GEC 6AS7s?
Thought?


----------



## 3083joe

One more thought on the 5998s 
They have a dirty sound to be in comparison to GECs 
Not sure that make sense but best way for me to describe it.


----------



## JamieMcC

3083joe said:


> One more thought on the 5998s
> They have a dirty sound to be in comparison to GECs
> Not sure that make sense but best way for me to describe it.


 
  
 The same tube is going to sound significantly different depending on what kind of amp topology it is implemented with. I certainly find the 5998 to be excellent in my set up but the GEC 6AS7G runs rings around it  out performs it when it comes to resolution, musicality and mid range density of tone.


----------



## 3083joe

jamiemcc said:


> The same tube is going to sound significantly different depending on what kind of amp topology it is implemented with. I certainly find the 5998 to be excellent in my set up but the GEC 6AS7G runs rings around it  out performs it when it comes to resolution, musicality and mid range density of tone.



Perfectly said!


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> Perfectly said!


 

 You guys are making me want a GEC 6AS7G now. My wallet is saying NO!


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> You guys are making me want a GEC 6AS7G now. My wallet is saying NO!




Can get a pair of black base for ones for around $300 usd


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Are they legit? They look Russian.


----------



## SonicTrance

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Are they legit? They look Russian.




They really do look russian.


----------



## Badas

sonictrance said:


> They really do look russian.


 
  
 Flying saucer - Check
 Top plate overly large - Check
 Chrome effect on the bottom of glass - Check
 Black bass like the Russian - Check
  
 I think these are $300 Russian fake GEC tubes.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> Flying saucer - Check
> Top plate overly large - Check
> Chrome effect on the bottom of glass - Check
> Black bass like the Russian - Check
> ...



Very well could be. 
I have never seen black base....... So I'd say you my be correct


----------



## 3083joe

I don't own any Russian tubes, they looked strange from the beginning. Reason I posted. 
Thanks so much. I will stay far away.


----------



## abvolt

> The pic sure looks Russian made


 
  


3083joe said:


> Can get a pair of black base for ones for around $300 usd


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Have any of you tried the black base GEC 6AS7s?
> Thought?


 
  
 First, I feel quite certain that the color and shape of the base is of absolutely no consequence. After all, the base and paint were put on after the bottles had been evacuated and sealed. Further, I have seen no evidence to suggest that GEC was running multiple assembly lines, one for black round base, one for brown round base and one for brown straight base. Rather, I think it is most likely that all these tubes were manufactured on the same assembly line and the selection of the base type was more a function of the end-user than anything else.
  
 The brown base is purported to provide better RF shielding, it was more expensive to fabricate and thus more costly to the end user. So it is likely that when an order came in for tubes intended for use under severe operating conditions, such as military or industrial environments, the brown base would have been specified. For consumer and most commercial uses, the cheaper black base would have been sufficient.
  
 As for the curved base versus the straight base, it seems most likely to me that this was a function of the equipment the tube was to be used in. For example, if the sockets were bottom mounted into the chassis, perhaps the wider straight base would have prevented it from being fully inserted into the socket. (In fact, there exist today similar examples where a 6AS7 is OK, but the wider 6080 will not fit without a riser.) Thus the narrower curved base would have been specified. On the other hand, if the sockets were top mounted, the cheaper straight base would have sufficed. (And I think it is likely that curved bases were more expensive to manufacture than straight bases. Thus the default base shape would have been straight.) Anyway, this is all wild speculation on my part, but it makes sense to me.
  
 OK, I have three pairs of GEC 6AS7. One pair, brown curved bases, manufactured in 1960. A second pair, brown straight bases, manufactured in 1956 and the third pair, pictured on the previous page, black curved bases, manufactured in 1950. Now, I do not claim to be an audiophile. Rather I would call myself a tube collector and tinkerer. Thus, I don't have the inclination, discipline or temperament to spend hours and hours trying to discern tiny differences. That said, I do not notice any difference in these three sets.
  
 So my advice, ignore all that you have heard and read about the color and shape of the base. It doesn't matter. If you can get a good pair of GEC 6AS7, that is, they are quiet and measure close to NOS, they will be as good as any other pair.
  
 Cheers


----------



## adeadcrab

I am thinking of some day getting the 7236 power tubes; how would these compare to the 5998? If the 5998 is cleaner sounding than GEC, what do the 7236 sound like?


----------



## gibosi

adeadcrab said:


> I am thinking of some day getting the 7236 power tubes; how would these compare to the 5998? If the 5998 is cleaner sounding than GEC, what do the 7236 sound like?


 
  
 I have both the Sylvania and Chatham 7236. Personally, I do not think they are as good as the 5998. And I would even go so far as to say that I would take the Mullard, GEC and Bendix 6080 over either of the 7236. But again, my ears and my gear.


----------



## adeadcrab

Why is that though? Is the 5998 warmer sounding? I am thinking I would like the 7236 if it is more neutral and less warm than it has to be.


----------



## IndieGradoFan

adeadcrab said:


> Why is that though? Is the 5998 warmer sounding? I am thinking I would like the 7236 if it is more neutral and less warm than it has to be.


 

 I have 2 pairs of 5998 and 1 of 7236 -- the 5998 are lusher to my ears so you might like the 7236. I prefer the 5998 but one of my pairs is noisy and the other pair had some loud static and distortion after switching rectifiers, so I pulled them. I just ordered a pair of Mullard 6080 and Tung-sol 6AS7G to compare to the 7236. I'm looking to find something close to 5998 but still obtainable, as the 5998s have gotten really hard to find in the last few months.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> I have both the Sylvania and Chatham 7236. Personally, I do not think they are as good as the 5998. And I would even go so far as to say that I would take the Mullard, GEC and Bendix 6080 over either of the 7236. But again, my ears and my gear.



Agree with you.


----------



## gibosi

adeadcrab said:


> Why is that though? Is the 5998 warmer sounding? I am thinking I would like the 7236 if it is more neutral and less warm than it has to be.


 
  
 It has been a very long time since I listened to these tubes.... I do remember that the Sylvania was lacking in bass, but I don't remember much about the Chatham, other than it just didn't do anything for me.
  
 And very frankly, I really don't understand what people mean when they say "neutral".  The live music I listen to, mostly in bars, night clubs and such, is much warmer and more bassy than what people call "neutral". So is seems to me that "neutral" is certainly not natural. And I must confess that I don't quite understand what it is and why people want it.....
  
 Anyway, I don't find the 5998 to be warm. And I would also say that the Bendix is not warm.


----------



## adeadcrab

Comparing Bendix 6080 slotted to russian tube and most 6AS7G tubes;

 Bendix has more detail in the high end than 6AS7G, tighter bass, balanced mids. compared to svetlana i would call the bendix slightly warm.

 6AS7G has bloomier bass, pronounced mids and recessed treble

 Svetlana has bass between Bendix and other 6AS7G, detailed but not as tight. Treble is slightly more present than Bendix. Mids are balanced same as Bendix


----------



## gibosi

Oh, I stumbled across some notes regarding the Chatham 7236. I wrote that it was warmer than the Sylvania 7236 with a very strong bass. So probably not what you are looking for...
  
 Have you tried the Telefunken 6080? However, I found them to be too bright, too thin and too airy for my taste....
  
 The ones pictured below are the real thing. You want to look for the series of characters beginning with the letter "U". Below, U1001305. The "U" tells us it was manufactured in Telefunken's Ulm factory. If you don't see a sequence of characters like this, it is likely a rebranded GE.


----------



## adeadcrab

How about Tung sol 7236?


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> I have both the Sylvania and Chatham 7236. Personally, I do not think they are as good as the 5998. And I would even go so far as to say that I would take the Mullard, GEC and Bendix 6080 over either of the 7236. But again, my ears and my gear.


 

 I agree.
  
 I have the Tung-Sol 7236. Not a good tube. The bass is muddy.


----------



## gibosi

Tung-Sol never manufactured the 7236. Only Chatham and Sylvania. However, with the purchase of Chatham, Tung-Sol took over Chatham's manufacturing facilities for the 7236 as well as the 6AS7 and 5998. It would seem likely that these tubes were one of the reasons for that purchase. So the Tung-Sol 7236 was manufactured using Chatham's factory.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> Oh, I stumbled across some notes regarding the Chatham 7236. I wrote that it was warmer than the Sylvania 7236 with a very strong bass. So probably not what you are looking for...
> 
> Have you tried the Telefunken 6080? However, I found them to be too bright, too thin and too airy for my taste....
> 
> The ones pictured below are the real thing. You want to look for the series of characters beginning with the letter "U". Below, U1001305. The "U" tells us it was manufactured in Telefunken's Ulm factory. If you don't see a sequence of characters like this, it is likely a rebranded GE.


 
  
 I've looked at those before. Internal construction looks the same as the Sylvania 6080. The sound you described is Sylvania also.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> I've looked at those before. Internal construction looks the same as the Sylvania 6080. The sound you described is Sylvania also.


 
  
 I have the Sylvania 6080 as well. The Telefunkens do not sound the same at all.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> I have the Sylvania 6080 as well. The Telefunkens do not sound the same at all.


 

 Good to know. So there is differences.


----------



## gibosi

adeadcrab said:


> Comparing Bendix 6080 slotted to russian tube and most 6AS7G tubes;
> 
> Bendix has more detail in the high end than 6AS7G, tighter bass, balanced mids. compared to svetlana i would call the bendix slightly warm.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It occurs to me that you might have to settle for a power tube that is not quite perfect, but close, and then continue to fine tune the sound using other tubes and components, such as drivers, rectifiers, cables, DAC and such.....


----------



## UntilThen

Picking up a pair of IBM 7236 now cheap. I am starting to be a collector.


----------



## adeadcrab

gibosi said:


> It occurs to me that you might have to settle for a power tube that is not quite perfect, but close, and then continue to fine tune the sound using other tubes and components, such as drivers, rectifiers, cables, DAC and such.....


 
  
 I like all the tubes that I own; sometimes I just want to use the GE 6AS7GA with HD650 and relax. Was merely wondering what difference there is regarding 5998 and Tung Sol 7236. 

 If I want accurate, I can always get the phonitor 2 (http://spl.info/en/products/headphone-amplifier/phonitor-2/overview.html) and the HD 800 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	























 Maybe some day...


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> adeadcrab said:
> 
> 
> > Why is that though? Is the 5998 warmer sounding? I am thinking I would like the 7236 if it is more neutral and less warm than it has to be.
> ...


 
 I agree.
  
 I do not hear the 5998 as being warm....it is pretty darn dynamic.
  
 For warm, I really like the Mullard 6080


----------



## larcenasb

I just got a Sylvania GB6080 that sounds magical but flashes violet every time I start up my amp... should I be concerned at all? Sometimes it'll even make a pop sound, this is when I turn the amp on soon after it was just turned off (when tube-rolling). Thanks for any info.


----------



## adeadcrab

This is normal. The blue or violet flash is electrons moving the plate at startup. Happens to bendix 6080 in my experience.


----------



## larcenasb

Thanks adeadcrab, now I can fall asleep while listening without worry, haha. Cheers.


----------



## adeadcrab

no worries


----------



## whirlwind

I got two 6080 Graphite plate tubes...one for $25 and one for $10
  
 They look to have a little different construction, one is labeled Tung Sol and I believe it to be from 1961....the other does not seem to have much left on it that I can read, the top mica seems to be a little thinner than the tube labeled Tung Sol.
  
 I am going to give them a try later tonight.


----------



## gibosi

I think "310" indicates 1963, the tenth week, so a little less than two years apart.
  
 The shape of the graphite is different, straight-edged on the left and beveled on the right. The third, or top spacer, is mica on the left and ceramic on the right. And ceramic is more whitish on the left and more purplish on the right.
  
 But still, only two years apart, so I would guess they will sound more similar than not. And likely close enough to allow you to form an opinion on the "Bendix sound." For that price a steal.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> I think "310" indicates 1963, the tenth week, so a little less than two years apart.
> 
> The shape of the graphite is different, straight-edged on the left and beveled on the right. The third, or top spacer, is mica on the left and ceramic on the right. And ceramic is more whitish on the left and more purplish on the right.
> 
> But still, only two years apart, so I would guess they will sound more similar than not. And likely close enough to allow you to form an opinion on the "Bendix sound." For that price a steal.


 
 Thanks.  1963 makes perfect sense.
  
 Yeah, that is what I am hoping for, so I can see if i like the sound.


----------



## whirlwind

I listened to these Bendix last night, paired with Ken Rad 6SN7.......I am really digging the sound


----------



## abvolt

That's cool you sure found a good deal on those, regular tung sol 6080's cost more then that, good find..


----------



## whirlwind

abvolt said:


> That's cool you sure found a good deal on those, regular tung sol 6080's cost more then that, good find..


 
 Thanks.
  
 gibosi was right, it lets me know that I do very much like their sound.
  
 I have them paired with a Ken Rad 6SN7 BG now....listening to Bob Marley - Legend
  
 Sounds wonderful.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Thanks.
> 
> gibosi was right, it lets me know that I do very much like their sound.
> 
> ...


 

 Ooooooooooh! I haven't listened to that for a very long time.
  
 It might be on my playlist tonight.


----------



## 3083joe

Got a pair of Bendix slotted 
Curious to hear them tonight.


----------



## whirlwind

3083joe said:


> Got a pair of Bendix slotted
> Curious to hear them tonight.


 
 I think most believe the slotted to be a tad better,


----------



## 3083joe

whirlwind said:


> I think most believe the slotted to be a tad better,



Yeah. I haven't heard either one. But curious to compare to GEC 6as7


----------



## Lord Raven

Anyone here selling an extra pair of Chatham 6AS7G?


----------



## 3083joe

lord raven said:


> Anyone here selling an extra pair of Chatham 6AS7G?



No but might sell my 5998s and Bendix 6080 slotted


----------



## 3083joe

Well no matter how hard I try nothing can compare to GEC 6as7s. 
Mullard - no
5998 - no
Bendix slotted - no
Maybe 421a - can't find any yet. 
Back to the GECs 
Don't get me wrong they are all good but the sweetness just isn't there for me. In comparison.


----------



## Lord Raven

That is sweet, tell me more about your tubes? PM me bro.. I need a pair!
  
 Quote:


3083joe said:


> No but might sell my 5998s and Bendix 6080 slotted


 
  
 GE 421A is available on eBay if your not too lazy to look it up 
  


3083joe said:


> Well no matter how hard I try nothing can compare to GEC 6as7s.
> Mullard - no
> 5998 - no
> Bendix slotted - no
> ...


----------



## 3083joe

lord raven said:


> GE 421A is available on eBay if your not too lazy to look it up



Looking for a pair we421a. 
Pm sent


----------



## Lord Raven

3083joe said:


> Looking for a pair we421a.
> Pm sent


 
 Sorry, I misspelled.
  
 It is WE 421A available on eBay.
  
 Here http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Western-Electric-421A-5998-Tube-NOS-NIB-Date-code-252-228-/301636990289?hash=item463af73551:g:UogAAOSwBahVWeOX
  
 And here http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Rare-Electric-421A-Vacuum-Tube-w-WE-Box-Tests-LOW-On-Hickok-TV-7-5739-/331682124066?hash=item4d39cb9122:g:2CsAAOSwEeFVGIOl


----------



## 3083joe

lord raven said:


> Sorry, I misspelled.
> 
> It is WE 421A available on eBay.
> 
> ...



Yeah. I saw thoughts. Thanks just over priced I feel. 
$400 pair maybe


----------



## punit

3083joe said:


> Well no matter how hard I try nothing can compare to GEC 6as7s.
> 
> 5998 - no
> 
> ...


 
 If 5998 was no, then most probably WE421A will also be no. They have similar sound.


----------



## 3083joe

punit said:


> If 5998 was no, then most probably WE421A will also be no. They have similar sound.



You are right but would like to try. Just to say I have. 
GEC 6as7g are hard to beat.


----------



## SonicTrance

3083joe said:


> You are right but would like to try. Just to say I have.
> GEC 6as7g are hard to beat.




IMO, There are no better 6AS7G' than the GEC's. Haven't tried the WE421's but I don't think it's worth it. I'm currently selling all my 5998's cause I like the GEC's more. That's the only power tube I'll use from now on.


----------



## 3083joe

sonictrance said:


> IMO, There are no better 6AS7G' than the GEC's. Haven't tried the WE421's but I don't think it's worth it. I'm currently selling all my 5998's cause I like the GEC's more. That's the only power tube I'll use from now on.



Yep. Same here. No comparison


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I have a question about heater voltage.
  
 I have a tube that requires 10V for the heater if i use 12V do i see the magic smoke?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Badas

sonictrance said:


> IMO, There are no better 6AS7G' than the GEC's. Haven't tried the WE421's but I don't think it's worth it. I'm currently selling all my 5998's cause I like the GEC's more. That's the only power tube I'll use from now on.


 
  
  


3083joe said:


> Yep. Same here. No comparison


 
  
 How did you find the GEC 6080 compared to the GEC6AS7G????
  
 I didn't like the GEC 6080 at all.


----------



## SonicTrance

badas said:


> How did you find the GEC 6080 compared to the GEC6AS7G????
> 
> I didn't like the GEC 6080 at all.




I haven't tried it. From what I've read they sound similar to the 6AS7G version, so my guess is you wouldn't like that one either. I've read in previous posts that you enjoy the Mullard 6080's. I on the other hand don't like them at all, way to warm and muddy sounding. So I guess we like different sound signatures


----------



## Jeb Listens

Yes, I find GEC 6AS7G a little weightier than the GEC 6080. A little more solidity & density to the sound.  However,  tonally they are probably more similar than different.   Nowhere near as thick, warm and juicy as the Mullard 6080. 
  
 I have a completely different amp but - given the expense - If you really didn't like the 6080 GEC, I think it would be safe to avoid the 6AS7G unless you are of the "I must try every tube" mentality.
  
 If you are, I respect that.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> How did you find the GEC 6080 compared to the GEC6AS7G????
> 
> I didn't like the GEC 6080 at all.



I haven't like any 6080s. 
GEC 6080 to me was nothing like GEC 6as7 
6as7 are just so smooth and transparent. 
I can't listen to anything else after them. 
I am purchasing a backup pair as we speak.


----------



## Badas

sonictrance said:


> I haven't tried it. From what I've read they sound similar to the 6AS7G version, so my guess is you wouldn't like that one either. I've read in previous posts that you enjoy the Mullard 6080's. I on the other hand don't like them at all, way to warm and muddy sounding. So I guess we like different sound signatures


 
  
  


jeb listens said:


> Yes, I find GEC 6AS7G a little weightier than the GEC 6080. A little more solidity & density to the sound.  However,  tonally they are probably more similar than different.   Nowhere near as thick, warm and juicy as the Mullard 6080.
> 
> I have a completely different amp but - given the expense - If you really didn't like the 6080 GEC, I think it would be safe to avoid the 6AS7G unless you are of the "I must try every tube" mentality.
> 
> If you are, I respect that.


 
  
 Yeah, I like the Mullard 6080 and the GE 6AS7G. Warm, lush and thick. So probably better to stay away from the GEC 6AS7G. Thanks.
  
 Good point on the amp. I have stated and believe that the WA22 is not very transparent on the power tubes. I have a feeling the transformer is influencing the effect a lot. Something holds back the effect of power tubes. You can hear the difference however the power tubes are not as dramatic as the other tubes. I've always put it as 50% rectifier, 40% driver and 10% on power tubes for the WA22. So really a waste to buy expensive power tubes.


3083joe said:


> I haven't like any 6080s.
> GEC 6080 to me was nothing like GEC 6as7
> 6as7 are just so smooth and transparent.
> I can't listen to anything else after them.
> I am purchasing a backup pair as we speak.


 
 Thanks.


----------



## 3083joe

Tube porn below


----------



## 3083joe

Can someone tell me what this code means
I know it's mullard and I think Blackburn but not sure and as for the rest no idea. 
Tia


----------



## SonicTrance

3083joe said:


> Can someone tell me what this code means
> I know it's mullard and I think Blackburn but not sure and as for the rest no idea.
> Tia


 
 fX1 = ECC33
 B8J = Mullard Blackburn, Oct, 1958.


----------



## 3083joe

Awesome. Your the man.


----------



## SonicTrance

3083joe said:


> Awesome. Your the man.


 
 Nice tube you got there!


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 I am looking for a pair of 5694 or CK5694 tubes. Made by Raytheon or labeled AMC. Cannot find any for sale - does anybody know where to get them?


----------



## abvolt

really nice how are the ecc31's been interested in them for a while now..


----------



## gibosi

abvolt said:


> really nice how are the ecc31's been interested in them for a while now..


 
  
 The ECC31 and ECC32 are actually one and the same, except for one connection. In the ECC31, the two cathodes are strapped together. In the ECC32, that connection is severed. And in fact, in early Mullard literature, the ECC32 is often referred to as a modified ECC31.
  
 In a 6SN7 amp, assuming that the amp can handle the higher heater current draw, 0.95 amps versus 0.6 amps, the major difference is the ECC31 adapter ties the ECC31 common cathode to the two separate cathode circuits in the amp, effectively reducing the cathode resistance by half. However, this might actually be a good thing, because the ECC32 datasheet suggests that the optimal cathode resistance for the ECC32 is about 1/2 to 2/3 of that for a 6SN7.
  
 However, until someone can directly compare these two tubes, I have no idea how the different cathode resistance might affect the sound. What I can say is I have been running the ECC31 in my Glenn OTL for quite some time and it has become one of my favorite drivers.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> The ECC31 and ECC32 are actually one and the same, except for one connection. In the ECC31, the two cathodes are strapped together. In the ECC32, that connection is severed. And in fact, in early Mullard literature, the ECC32 is often referred to as a modified ECC31.
> 
> In a 6SN7 amp, assuming that the amp can handle the higher heater current draw, 0.95 amps versus 0.6 amps, the major difference is the ECC31 adapter ties the ECC31 common cathode to the two separate cathode circuits in the amp, effectively reducing the cathode resistance by half. However, this might actually be a good thing, because the ECC32 datasheet suggests that the optimal cathode resistance for the ECC32 is about 1/2 to 2/3 of that for a 6SN7.
> 
> However, until someone can directly compare these two tubes, I have no idea how the different cathode resistance might affect the sound. What I can say is I have been running the ECC31 in my Glenn OTL for quite some time and it has become one of my favorite drivers.



I have the 31 32 33 and 35 and within the next week will test all. Trying to also get my hands on 34s.


----------



## SonicTrance

3083joe said:


> I have the 31 32 33 and 35 and within the next week will test all. Trying to also get my hands on 34s.


 
 My guess is that you'll find them to sound quite similar with small differences. At least I did with the ECC32/33/35's.
  
Btw, this is the 6AS7G thread, lol


----------



## 3083joe

sonictrance said:


> My guess is that you'll find them to sound quite similar with small differences. At least I did with the ECC32/33/35's.
> 
> Btw, this is the 6AS7G thread, lol



Yeah. Looks like the 35s are my fav right now


----------



## hypnos1

sonictrance said:


> IMO, There are no better 6AS7G' than the GEC's. Haven't tried the WE421's but I don't think it's worth it. I'm currently selling all my 5998's cause I like the GEC's more. That's the only power tube I'll use from now on.


 
  
  


3083joe said:


> Yep. Same here. No comparison


 
  
 Love mine so much, I've no desire _whatsoever_ to even try the 5998...thanks guys for confirming my suspicions, lol!


----------



## 3083joe

hypnos1 said:


> Love mine so much, I've no desire _whatsoever_ to even try the 5998...thanks guys for confirming my suspicions, lol!  :wink_face:



Yep. Just purchased a backup pair


----------



## hypnos1

3083joe said:


> Yep. Just purchased a backup pair


 
  
 Didn't know we have a millionaire in our midst, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...lucky feller. I'm just hoping they have a good _long_ life...


----------



## 3083joe

hypnos1 said:


> Didn't know we have a millionaire in our midst, lol!  :wink_face: ...lucky feller. I'm just hoping they have a good _long_ life...:rolleyes:



That's a funny one. 
.....just a crazy addiction.


----------



## hypnos1

3083joe said:


> That's a funny one.
> .....just a crazy addiction.


 
  
 Tell me about it, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...any cure for it?...


----------



## 3083joe

hypnos1 said:


> Tell me about it, lol! :wink_face: ...any cure for it?...



Buy more tubes...........


----------



## hypnos1

3083joe said:


> Buy more tubes...........


----------



## Badas

I'm the opposite. I'm slowing down.
  
 I have 16 Brimar 5Z4GY rectifiers, 5 Mullard GZ32 rectifiers.
 14 sets of Tung-Sol RP 6C8G Drivers, 2 sets of NU 6F8G drivers, 22 sets of RCA 6C8G drivers and a set of RCA 6SN7 Greyglass drivers.
 Just got my final set of GE6AS7GA power tubes. I now have 17 sets, 1 set of GE6080, 1 set of quiet Mullard 6080, 2 set noisy Mullards, 1 set Tung-Sol 7236, 1 set of Bendix 6080 graphite plates, 1 set GEC 6080, 1 set of Thompson 6080, 3 sets of Chatham 6AS7G and a stack of others I don't really care about.
  
 So now I have stocked up on my favorite power tubes I'm done.


----------



## Jeb Listens

That collection's going to be pretty damn valuable in 30 years time when the rest of us are fighting over the last Svetlanas on eBay.


----------



## Badas

jeb listens said:


> That collection's going to be pretty damn valuable in 30 years time when the rest of us are fighting over the last Svetlanas on eBay.


 
  
 I work on the idea that I need 70 years worth of tubes. I'm mid 40's now so I think I'm being optimistic that I will last that long. I will likely be worm feed or dust by then. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 5000 hours per tube or set of tubes. Which is ruffly 5 years usage. So 5 years times 14 sets = 70 years. So I need 14 sets of everything.
  
 I now have that.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Awesome.  Yes I'd say you're sorted.  By that time we'll be mainlining the music directly into our cryogenically-frozen brains via microchip.   Either that or minidiscs will have made a resurgence.


----------



## Badas

jeb listens said:


> Awesome.  Yes I'd say you're sorted.  By that time we'll be mainlining the music directly into our cryogenically-frozen brains via microchip.   Either that or minidiscs will have made a resurgence.


 

 Microchip Yes. I can believe that. Minidiscs please No.


----------



## 2359glenn

badas said:


> I'm the opposite. I'm slowing down.
> 
> I have 16 Brimar 5Z4GY rectifiers, 5 Mullard GZ32 rectifiers.
> 14 sets of Tung-Sol RP 6C8G Drivers, 2 sets of NU 6F8G drivers, 22 sets of RCA 6C8G drivers and a set of RCA 6SN7 Greyglass drivers.
> ...


 

 What if you get a different amp that uses different tubes?


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> I work on the idea that I need 70 years worth of tubes. I'm mid 40's now so I think I'm being optimistic that I will last that long. I will likely be worm feed or dust by then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 What if you get a different amp that doesn't use those type tubes, remember some tubes can last decades and still work just fine..


----------



## Badas

2359glenn said:


> What if you get a different amp that uses different tubes?


 
  
  


abvolt said:


> What if you get a different amp that doesn't use those type tubes, remember some tubes can last decades and still work just fine..


 
  
 That has occurred to me. If that happens then I would stock up on other types.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > What if you get a different amp that uses different tubes?
> ...


 
 Just buy an amp that uses the same tubes.
  
 I know this is probably a dumn question....but.....why not just have a back up pair of each, then just buy them as needed.


----------



## adeadcrab

whirlwind said:


> Just buy an amp that uses the same tubes.
> 
> I know this is probably a dumn question....but.....why not just have a back up pair of each, then just buy them as needed.


 
 Because a lot of these tubes are no longer in production, their population rate worldwide is on the down trend


----------



## whirlwind

adeadcrab said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Just buy an amp that uses the same tubes.
> ...


 
 True....but I believe there are many more than you might think.....and even if you have to pay a tad more for them by the time you need them...your money is not tied up in tubes that are just going to sit in the boxes for years and years and years and you know....


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> Because a lot of these tubes are no longer in production, their population rate worldwide is on the down trend


 

 Exactly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Plus I buy now for say $40 a set. How much are they going to be in 25 years time????
  
 I'm saving a bundle of $$'s buying them now.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> adeadcrab said:
> 
> 
> > Because a lot of these tubes are no longer in production, their population rate worldwide is on the down trend
> ...


 
 I see.....ok.....just wandering....inquiring minds want to know


----------



## Shaffer

whirlwind said:


> True....but I believe there are many more than you might think.....and even if you have to pay a tad more for them by the time you need them...your money is not tied up in tubes that are just going to sit in the boxes for years and years and years and you know....




All depends on what one pays and the projected demand for the tube in the future. Personally, I love the tube hunting game - whoever pays less for a good tube wins. Just received a NOS Chatham 6080 today for my DV - $9 shipped. I'm betting that Chatham NOS tubes will rise in price as time goes on, and scarcity sets in, and I only have $9 into it. Same goes for essentially all tubes I buy. Some certainly ran me more than $9, but much less than the market price. This being said, I likely have enough tubes to last the rest of my life, so I'm slowing down quite a bit.


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 They may indeed go up in price if the global economy doesn't crash first, which most economists warn it's inevitable then your tube collection with amp might be worth a slice of bread if your lucky Lol..Happy times


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> They may indeed go up in price if the global economy doesn't crash first, which most economists warn it's inevitable then your tube collection with amp might be worth a slice of bread if your lucky Lol..Happy times


 

 They warned about that at the last big crash in 1987. Guess what. Things have gone up 10 times +


----------



## Shaffer

abvolt said:


> They may indeed go up in price if the global economy doesn't crash first, which most economists warn it's inevitable then your tube collection with amp might be worth a slice of bread if your lucky Lol..Happy times




 There's an old joke, put 12 economists into a room and you'll get 13 different answers.


----------



## 3083joe

2359glenn said:


> What if you get a different amp that uses different tubes?



Thought the same. 
Set I'm using and pair of backups will do me.


----------



## whirlwind

*New arrivals*


----------



## mordy

Hi Badas,

Why 17 sets of the GE 6AS7GA tubes? 

Well. let's see - just realized that I have 3 sets GE 6AS7GA, and 7.5 sets Sylvania 6AS7GA (some labeled RCA). 

So I can answer the question myself: THEY ARE EXCELLENT!

Disclaimer: I do not have the GEC A1834 or GEC 6080 tubes, nor the Mullard 6080s. But I do have a lot of the other brands; GE, RCA, Svetlana, Shuguang, Chatham, Raytheon, Tung Sol + fake Russian Sylvanias etc.

Right now I am running Sylvania 7963 driver minis with Sylvania 6AS7GA power tubes - great sound.


----------



## Shaffer

Mordy, can you post a pic of a Sylvania 6AS7GA? I suspect that it's either a 6080 or a relabeled GE, if it is indeed a GA. Would love to see one.


----------



## Lord Raven

This is what I asked Badas, if he is generous enough to let go of a pair of GA's


----------



## Mechans1

Do you like the GEC and  Osrams better than  5998s? I would like to have some GEC and MOVs to try but never find them for sale. I was able to buy some more good Tung Sol 5998s this week. They sound the better than my Sylvania 6080s and even my Mullard 6080s in my gear.  Any suggestion for other tubes to try, have GE and RCA 6080s?  I don't have a lot of 6AS7Gs.
 .


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> Hi Badas,
> 
> Why 17 sets of the GE 6AS7GA tubes?
> 
> ...




Yip. You got it. The GE really surprised me. It is an excellent tube for cheap. There is plenty around as well. We don't have to fight for them. 

The GE got very close to my favorite sounding tube that I have tried so far. The Mullard 6080. So damn close I doubt I would be able to hear the difference in a blind test. So the GE will be my go to tube from now on. Hence the stock up. 

I have a set of the GEC6080's. I look at power tubes like this. There is two distinct flavours. Transparent and warm. Mullard 6080 and GE are warm. Downside a little treble detail is lost. Plus side there they are lush and have great bass. The GEC and the Thomson are transparent. You get all the detail. Nothing wrong with that. Just not my thing. Sound is detailed and slightly leaner. 

I think is you want warm go for this: Mullard. More expensive but top notch. GE. Cheap and so close to the best.

If you want neutral then do this: GEC6080. More expensive but can't be faulted. So transparent. Thomson. The cheaper option. Gets very close to GEC. 

There are options for both flavours of sound and budget.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Talking about GE 6AS7GA is this the one?
  
 THANKS!


----------



## Shaffer

Heh, that pair has been an ebay forever. Badas is referring to these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7GA-GE-JAN-Vacuum-Tube-072-612-/221562674917?hash=item33962a1ee5:g:avwAAOSwEK9UKZ5v

They can be had from PartsExpress for even less; though, this is a parts express ad. I bought mine from ebay, same as as above, as it was easier and the difference in cost came to a shade more than $3. If one were buying a lager quantity, going directly to the source is a better idea.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

shaffer said:


> Heh, that pair has been an ebay forever. Badas is referring to these:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7GA-GE-JAN-Vacuum-Tube-072-612-/221562674917?hash=item33962a1ee5:g:avwAAOSwEK9UKZ5v
> 
> They can be had from PartsExpress for even less; though, this is a parts express ad. I bought mine from ebay, same as as above, as it was easier and the difference in cost came to a shade more than $3. If one were buying a lager quantity, going directly to the source is a better idea.


 
 I nearly hit the BUY button for a different Tube.THANKS.


----------



## whirlwind

mechans1 said:


> Do you like the GEC and  Osrams better than  5998s? I would like to have some GEC and MOVs to try but never find them for sale. I was able to buy some more good Tung Sol 5998s this week. They sound the better than my Sylvania 6080s and even my Mullard 6080s in my gear.  Any suggestion for other tubes to try, have GE and RCA 6080s?  I don't have a lot of 6AS7Gs.
> .


 
  
 Both the Gec 6AS7   & the 5998 are great tubes.......it would be personal preference as to which somebody likes best.....you can't go wrong with either IMO.


----------



## Badas

shaffer said:


> Heh, that pair has been an ebay forever. Badas is referring to these:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7GA-GE-JAN-Vacuum-Tube-072-612-/221562674917?hash=item33962a1ee5:g:avwAAOSwEK9UKZ5v
> 
> They can be had from PartsExpress for even less; though, this is a parts express ad. I bought mine from ebay, same as as above, as it was easier and the difference in cost came to a shade more than $3. If one were buying a lager quantity, going directly to the source is a better idea.


 

 Yip. That's them.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > Heh, that pair has been an ebay forever. Badas is referring to these:
> ...


 
 I need a snag a pair of these sometime......listening to Thompson 6080 tonight with C3g.....sound is wonderful


----------



## Dogmatrix

After a bad run of buzzy nu6f8g drivers I am running a Psvane cv181 classic t series to a Marconi A1834 (Gec 6as7g) in "Sanguine"
 Sound is beautiful , although the WE 421a gives a more full and powerful delivery the A1834 is so clear and detailed with the most realistic tone I have heard
 I have not tried many of the highly regarded 6sn7 drivers as they demand high prices but the little Psvane is very high quality and performs beyond expectation , certainly better than the budget nos 6sn7's


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> I need a snag a pair of these sometime......listening to Thompson 6080 tonight with C3g.....sound is wonderful


 


  
 I actually received a few more of the GE6AS7GA's today. 2.5 sets. Why did I buy 5 tubes. Stupid me.
  
 Anyhow some close pics with the great Brimar 5Z4GY's.


----------



## attmci

whirlwind said:


> Both the Gec 6AS7   & the 5998 are great tubes.......it would be personal preference as to which somebody likes best.....you can't go wrong with either IMO.


 

 Then test these great tubes,
  
http://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I need a snag a pair of these sometime......listening to Thompson 6080 tonight with C3g.....sound is wonderful
> ...


 
 so you can sell me 3 of them?


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> so you can sell me 3 of them?


 




  
 I will keep the odd numbered tube as a spare. I plan to buy 3-4 more sets.
  
 These are starting to go like other tubes. They are starting to get rare as well.
  
 The reason I got 5 was that it was the last 5 Langrex had. I asked for 8 and got 5.
  
 Talking to them they had thousands just a few years ago. Now they are gone.
  
 Parts Express still has stocks and I know a guy in Aussie who has pristine versions. However in a few years these cheap prices may dry up. Just like everything else.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > so you can sell me 3 of them?
> ...


 
 Parts%%^^$#$# will charge me arm and a leg for a tube total cost would be $40CAD


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Parts%%^^$#$# will charge me arm and a leg for a tube total cost would be $40CAD


 

 What's the freight to Canada?
  
 Would this be an option?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7GA-GE-JAN-Vacuum-Tube-072-612-/221562674917?hash=item33962a1ee5:g:avwAAOSwEK9UKZ5v&rmvSB=true


----------



## i luvmusic 2

badas said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Parts%%^^$#$# will charge me arm and a leg for a tube total cost would be $40CAD
> ...


 
 That was the one i was referring to.
  
 Thanks


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> That was the one i was referring to.
> 
> Thanks


 

 So it's the freight that kills it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I feel ya pain. Living in New Zealand everything has the freight cost on top. Stupid Island in the middle of the Pacific is one of the most expensive places around to get stuff shipped to.


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> badas said:
> 
> 
> > i luvmusic 2 said:
> ...


 
 There cheaper on there site than Ebay                    http://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612


----------



## MIKELAP

mikelap said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > badas said:
> ...


 
 Its still expensive anyway 2or 4 tubes is same shipping cost ($18.00)with shipping if you buy 2 tubes only its  $41.28 U.S. which is almost $55.00 CA not cheap


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Yup that tube is not exactly that cheap for us here in CAN. i will get more CHATHAM 6AS7G instead because i really like this tube.


----------



## Badas

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Yup that tube is not exactly that cheap for us here in CAN. i will get more CHATHAM 6AS7G instead because i really like this tube.


 

 At that price I wouldn't consider it expensive. Different expectations I guess.
  
 I own 3 sets of Chatham 6AS7G. They are nice. I do want to like them. However I find them a little lean.


----------



## abvolt

I agree the ge 6as7g is a great all around inexpensive tube which I like, I enjoy tung sol 6as7g a little more and the mullard 6080 is one of my favorites


----------



## adeadcrab

Including shipping, for 4 tubes from parts express to australia each tube was about $17


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> Including shipping, for 4 tubes from parts express to australia each tube was about $17


 

 Cant complain about that.


----------



## JOHNNY LOLO

Aren't they the same as the parts express GE 6AS7GA??? They look identical to me...



i luvmusic 2 said:


> Talking about GE 6AS7GA is this the one?
> 
> THANKS!







shaffer said:


> Heh, that pair has been an ebay forever. Badas is referring to these:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7GA-GE-JAN-Vacuum-Tube-072-612-/221562674917?hash=item33962a1ee5:g:avwAAOSwEK9UKZ5v
> 
> They can be had from PartsExpress for even less; though, this is a parts express ad. I bought mine from ebay, same as as above, as it was easier and the difference in cost came to a shade more than $3. If one were buying a lager quantity, going directly to the source is a better idea.


----------



## MIKELAP

johnny lolo said:


> Aren't they the same as the parts express GE 6AS7GA??? They look identical to me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 They look idendical to me to ,so i bought a pair , plus side is they ship from Canada none of that GLOBAL SCAMMING PROGRAM .


----------



## Liu Junyuan

It's the paradox of these tube discussion threads that it is no wonder tubes become more rare the more they are praised even as we often must rely on others to tell us which tubes are worth buying. The more you "hype" the tube, and especially when you draw conspicuous attention to the likelihood of imminent scarcity, the more difficult it will obviously be for all of us to actually find them. I dont want to sound like I am complaining, but unless certain people take pleasure in intensifying an unnecessary supply-shortage, this would seem to be an onvious side-effect of these threads, which are both indispensable sources of valuable information and direct causes of hoarding, market-scarcity, and rising prices. I suppose it can't be helped...


----------



## MIKELAP

liu junyuan said:


> It's the paradox of these tube discussion threads that it is no wonder tubes become more rare the more they are praised even as we often must rely on others to tell us which tubes are worth buying. The more you "hype" the tube, and especially when you draw conspicuous attention to the likelihood of imminent scarcity, the more difficult it will obviously be for all of us to actually find them. I dont want to sound like I am complaining, but unless certain people take pleasure in intensifying an unnecessary supply-shortage, this would seem to be an onvious side-effect of these threads, which are both indispensable sources of valuable information and direct causes of hoarding, market-scarcity, and rising prices. I suppose it can't be helped...


 
 Its same as vintage gear before it was an old amp now its a vintage amp classier  and alot more expensive to  lol.


----------



## adeadcrab

yeah, too bad


----------



## JOHNNY LOLO

It doesn't help that people bad mouth current production tubes. I have some Chinese no names that are just as good as the NOS ones. There is a lot of wankery in audio. Support new production tubes and before you know it they'll be cloning the rarest tubes at a fraction of the going price. But at the moment there is no market for it due to snobbery and NOS FOTM herd mentality.




liu junyuan said:


> It's the paradox of these tube discussion threads that it is no wonder tubes become more rare the more they are praised even as we often must rely on others to tell us which tubes are worth buying. The more you "hype" the tube, and especially when you draw conspicuous attention to the likelihood of imminent scarcity, the more difficult it will obviously be for all of us to actually find them. I dont want to sound like I am complaining, but unless certain people take pleasure in intensifying an unnecessary supply-shortage, this would seem to be an onvious side-effect of these threads, which are both indispensable sources of valuable information and direct causes of hoarding, market-scarcity, and rising prices. I suppose it can't be helped...


----------



## Jeb Listens

I do agree that there is a lot of excitement in tube rolling and it invariably pushes up the price and scarcity.
  
 However,  many of the NOS recommendations made on this thread are made by people who have taken the time to perform careful and extensive listening comparisons across the entire range of available tubes.   Many of these are also motivated by the desire to find viable inexpensive alternatives to the rare & premium tubes. 
  
 Although some varieties are getting scarcer I think its fair to say that, as a whole, stocks of NOS 6AS7/6080s are absolutely vast.  If you have found that Chinese modern production tubes have generally been comparable in quality to NOS tubes that you've heard then there's really no reason at all to get involved in the premium NOS race.   
  
 As far as I'm aware Sovtek are the only modern production tubes in this family. Is that correct?  However, Thomson 6080, Tung Sol/Chatham 6080, GE 6AS7G, Svetlana 6H13C, RCA 6AS7G- all are  plentiful and great sounding choices for a budget option.
  
  
 Specifically for buying tubes in the 6080/6AS7 family I can't find much to  complain about unless we are talking about chasing the most expensive and rarest tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

Here's what I do: There are two people on this forum whose tube advice I trust. Two. All the purchasing decisions are made by me. Couldn't care less what's being promoted in the thread as FOTM. I've discovered many fantastic tubes - replying on myself - for a fraction of the cost of a "holy grail." The moral of the story? Don't listen to anyone other than yourself and your own expertise. Don't have the expertise? Study and use your ears. This isn't rocket science.


----------



## mordy

Hi Jeb Listens,

Thank you for your thoughtful and balanced summary. There is some merit to what Liu Junyuan states, but on the other hand, if we don't let other people know about great tubes, how will we find out? Not everybody can try out a lot of stuff, and especially not the expensive ones.

On the other hand, if we can find inexpensive tubes that sound great, as long as they are available in larger quantities, the price is not going to change much. Only the very rare ones will go up in price if there is a sudden demand.

The other part of the equation is the synergy between different tubes. It may be possible that different amps react differently to different combinations.

Shaffer,

Looking for the great inexpensive tubes that you found, I am not able to find the information. Would you be so kind to list again the discoveries you made? Very interested to hear what you found...Also if you could post the links to the sellers that you mentioned - thanks.


----------



## adeadcrab

Look on my works, ye mortals, and despair...

 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Shuguang-Chinese-6N13P-T-6N13P-6H13C-6AS7G-Vacuum-Tube-2PCS-/171504380343


----------



## mordy

Hi adeadcrab,

I also thought of the Shuguang tubes - I have one called 6N5PJ. So far, except for the visual tube glow, I have not find any complimentary reviews of these tubes.

(Don't know what your comment about despair means...)


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Shaffer,
> 
> Looking for the great inexpensive tubes that you found, I am not able to find the information. Would you be so kind to list again the discoveries you made? Very interested to hear what you found...Also if you could post the links to the sellers that you mentioned - thanks.




Mordy, I posted a link in the Elise rolling thread.


----------



## adeadcrab

If you can find another 6AS7 version of Chinese tubes let us all know...


----------



## Jeb Listens

mordy said:


> Hi Jeb Listens,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful and balanced summary. There is some merit to what Liu Junyuan states, but on the other hand, if we don't let other people know about great tubes, how will we find out? Not everybody can try out a lot of stuff, and especially not the expensive ones.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hi Mordy - yes indeed definitely a lot of truth in what Liu Junyuan wrote.  You only have to go to the beginning of this thread (2009) to read about people buying 5998s for $20.  
  
 Your point about synergy is a great one - within this thread you can read about the same valves being described as dark or bright & rich or lean, by different people.  I'm sure this has everything to do with ears, headphones, amps, DACs and - above all - our own internal sonic compass.  
  
 Therefore, impressions threads and tube rolling guides are probably best treated only as starting points for one's own explorations or to make slightly better informed decisions when taking a punt on the very expensive tubes. 
  
 Having recently worked my way through most of the tubes in this family, as much as I think the GECs/5998s are lovely tubes, my main feeling at the end of this journey is how you really can still get great sounding tubes for relatively little money.  I could happily live with a TS-6080 or an RCA 6AS7.


----------



## mordy

Hi Jeb Listens,

One more point, which was surprising to me when I first discovered it:

Even though there are very large differences between our equipment and personal perceptions, it is quite possible to come to a consensus on a GROUP of tubes that are top tier. Not everybody will agree that this one or that one is the best, but as a group there will be agreement that one of those tubes are among the best, with applications across the board.

An herein lies the usefulness of sharing our impressions - we will be able to find something pleasing our personal taste as well as wallet.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Mordy, great point, well made.  There does indeed seem to be a consensus on many of the tube threads.  Some might describe this as the result of a sheep mentality or because good reputations are self-perpetuating.  Others might see it as a process of natural selection whereby the best tubes tend to rise to the top based on true merit.  Perhaps the truth is a little more nuanced than that and lies somewhere between the two.  I try and take it on a tube by tube basis. 
  
 The closet lone-wolf in me tends to prefer the cheaper tubes that nobody talks about.  But that's a form of personal bias that's really no better than simply buying what someone else says sounds good.  I just try to be aware of it ! 
  
  
 I do think that in the general tube threads it's quite good practice (as well as interesting) to contextualise listening impressions by mentioning the entire audio chain & blood-stream alcohol content at the time of writing


----------



## abvolt

I'm in line with your thinking *Jeb *I also enjoy the inexpensive tubes that many don't talk about, for me it's all about variety. I've found that some of the cheaper tubes sound absolutely amazing, An example would be a 5Z3 & a 80 both NU for under 10. sound as well as some of my more expensive tubes. Great sounding cheap tubes can be had I have many of them..


----------



## Oskari

jeb listens said:


> As far as I'm aware Sovtek are the only modern production tubes in this family. Is that correct?


 
  
 I'm not aware of any current production. The Sovteks were relabelled Svetlanas.


----------



## SonicTrance

oskari said:


> I'm not aware of any current production. The Sovteks were relabelled Svetlanas.


 
 Shuguang makes them:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Shuguang-Chinese-6N13P-T-6N13P-6H13C-6AS7G-Vacuum-Tube-2PCS-/171504380343?hash=item27ee7529b7:g:KnEAAOSwY45UQGGZ


----------



## Oskari

Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. Those could be old stock. (They could certainly resume production.)


----------



## adeadcrab

I think those shuguang are 80s era tubes, though there are some other current production models


----------



## SonicTrance

adeadcrab said:


> I think those shuguang are 80s era tubes, *though there are some other current production models*


 
 So, where are they? Links, please


----------



## Skylab

I am 99.99% certain there are no current production 6AS7/6080 tubes. If there were, amp makers like AtmaSphere, who sell amps loaded with 6AS7s, would use them. But they don't. They use NOS Russian tubes.

And honestly, what fool would go into production of this tube? There is literally no money in it. One can buy NOS Svetlanas for $5 each, or even less when purchased in bulk, and there are clearly mountains of these available. A while back I thought about buying a box of 200 for $100 plus shipping. I don't think it's possible to manufacture that tube today for less than that.


----------



## adeadcrab

Shuguang are making other vacuum tubes, http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/purchase/shuguang-treasure-series-vacuum-tubes/


----------



## adeadcrab

Shuguang has been around since 1958 producing vacuum tubes and have made huge strides in quality in the past number of years. With updated equipment and quality control improvements they are now one of the worlds largest tube manufactures supplying many of the OEM amplifier manufacturers and most of the boutique tube brands from around the world.


----------



## Oskari

No 6AS7Gs, though, currently.


----------



## adeadcrab

adeadcrab said:


> I think those shuguang are 80s era tubes, though there are some other current production models


----------



## SonicTrance

skylab said:


> I am 99.99% certain there are no current production 6AS7/6080 tubes. If there were, amp makers like AtmaSphere, who sell amps loaded with 6AS7s, would use them. But they don't. They use NOS Russian tubes.
> 
> And honestly, what fool would go into production of this tube? There is literally no money in it. One can buy NOS Svetlanas for $5 each, or even less when purchased in bulk, and there are clearly mountains of these available. A while back I thought about buying a box of 200 for $100 plus shipping. I don't think it's possible to manufacture that tube today for less than that.




I can see a potential market if someone were to make replicas of some of the nicer sounding tubes like GEC A1834's, that sound just as good or better than the original. I know it's highly unlikely but I would be interested in such tubes


----------



## Jeb Listens

sonictrance said:


> I can see a potential market if someone were to make replicas of some of the nicer sounding tubes like GEC A1834's, that sound just as good or better than the original. I know it's highly unlikely but I would be interested in such tubes


 
  
 Indeed Mister-X if that were to happen I'd be all over it. 
  
 I'd be less excited about the replicas/re-issues that typically come out of factories like New Sensor in Russia. Since they own the Mullard/Tung-Sol names that seems like one of the most likely sources of replicas at least for those brands. Maybe they'll do a 5998 re-issue. 
  
 Some of their efforts are definitely commendable  in terms of sound/cost ratio and they give amp producers a stable stock of reliable tubes to support their products.  But sonically/tonally, the ones I have tried haven't really shared much in common with the Euro & US tubes they were trying to emulate. I've usually preferred other NOS tubes that were often less expensive & still freely available.

 It would certainly be interesting to see what someone like Takatsuki could do with a 6AS7G -  Of course, that's unlikely to help anybody's wallet but in some ways its good to see companies trying to push the boundaries and try and better what has come before rather than just replicate it.   
  
 Plus I want one of those Takatsuki wooden boxes.  I hate myself for it, but there you go.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

mikelap said:


> johnny lolo said:
> 
> 
> > Aren't they the same as the parts express GE 6AS7GA??? They look identical to me...
> ...


 
 Same here bought a pair.


----------



## Skylab

sonictrance said:


> I can see a potential market if someone were to make replicas of some of the nicer sounding tubes like GEC A1834's, that sound just as good or better than the original. I know it's highly unlikely but I would be interested in such tubes




It's a nice idea. The issue is, has that EVER worked? The Shuguang CV-181's sure don't sound like real CV-181's.


----------



## SonicTrance

skylab said:


> It's a nice idea. The issue is, has that EVER worked? The Shuguang CV-181's sure don't sound like real CV-181's.




No it doesn't. But the Shuguang is not a replica. It's a totally different tube with different specs. They only copied the name...


----------



## Mechans1

It is more than just structure.  The materials are almost certainly not what GEC or even WE used in their making tubes.  They may look identical whilst being made out of current production metals and wires.  It would take quite a bit of time and money to analyze and then reproduce the alloys the were used 60, 70 years ago. I am not sure this problem is surmountable.  Oh well!


----------



## JOHNNY LOLO

It would be no different to cloning vintage speaker drivers such as the JBL and WE compression drivers which by most accounts sound identical to the originals. It is just a matter of measurement and replication of the electrical characteristics of the tube. Their is nothing magical about the metals that were in the 50s and 60s

I believe this could start happening as popularity and price of certain unobtanium tubes grows to the point that such an undertaking would become viable



mechans1 said:


> It is more than just structure.  The materials are almost certainly not what GEC or even WE used in their making tubes.  They may look identical whilst being made out of current production metals and wires.  It would take quite a bit of time and money to analyze and then reproduce the alloys the were used 60, 70 years ago. I am not sure this problem is surmountable.  Oh well!


----------



## Skylab

For better or worse, that's not really possible. Many of the processes required for making vintage vacuum tubes exactly as they were made in the tube heyday wouldn't be legal today. Certainly not in Europe, where ROHS pretty much precludes tube making.


----------



## JOHNNY LOLO

Which processes? I know cathode ray tubes are dangerous but vintage audio tubes? Regardless the Asian countries have far less restrictions for production of such things! 



skylab said:


> For better or worse, that's not really possible. Many of the processes required for making vintage vacuum tubes exactly as they were made in the tube heyday wouldn't be legal today. Certainly not in Europe, where ROHS pretty much precludes tube making.


----------



## JamieMcC

Try googling "Bendix factory site contamination" they were still dealing with it a few years ago


----------



## JOHNNY LOLO

Let's see what this little guy fetches!...http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181917121617&alt=web


----------



## JOHNNY LOLO

jamiemcc said:


> Try googling "Bendix factory site contamination" they were still dealing with it a few years ago




Bendix made radioactive tubes as well we are not talking about that though. Let's not get melodramatic guys tubes are not any more toxic than batteries and light bulbs. I've dropped a few tubes and haven't had to call hazmat yet.


----------



## mordy

Hi Johnny Lolo,

If you search YouTube under Mullard vacuum tubes you will find films from the 40's showing how they made vacuum tubes. It is very interesting to watch, but seeing the workplace without much of safe guards in place in the presence of chemicals, electric and heat sources could make nervous....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDvF89Bh27Y


----------



## abvolt

johnny lolo said:


> Bendix made radioactive tubes as well we are not talking about that though. Let's not get melodramatic guys tubes are not any more toxic than batteries and light bulbs. I've dropped a few tubes and haven't had to call hazmat yet.


 
 Simply put It's because the politically correct bureaucrats say so..


----------



## Mechans1

johnny lolo said:


> Bendix made radioactive tubes as well we are not talking about that though. Let's not get melodramatic guys tubes are not any more toxic than batteries and light bulbs. I've dropped a few tubes and haven't had to call hazmat yet.


 

 I agree, the typical audio tube has fewer reactive and poisonous elements than a broken fluorescent  light tube/bulb.  Cathode ray tubes or very poisonous, or so I've been told and there still many of them out there.  I had a SS  Marantz  power amp that caught fire.  I extinguished it quickly but I am sure the smoke was toxic. Think of all of the amp components circuit boards, resistors, capacitors etc..


----------



## MIKELAP

What about MERCURY VAPOR tubes was thinking of getting some how dangerous can those be ?


----------



## Badas

mikelap said:


> What about MERCURY VAPOR tubes was thinking of getting some how dangerous can those be ?




Home Theater projectors use Mercury Vapor as well. They also get super hot and occasionally crack or blow. It doesn't stop them making use of it.


----------



## JamieMcC

Unless you know the differing formulas for the chemicals used in the construction of a tube to imply they are no worse than those in a light bulb is pure speculation.  I certainly handle the Mercury vapour rectifier tubes I have with great care.


----------



## JOHNNY LOLO

So im listening to the GE JAN 6AS7GA in my Bottlehead crack. It's surprisingly neutral. I prefer a more coloured presentation but I'm sure some folks will like this tube. Plus it's cheap as chips.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

^^^
 I can't wait for my GE JAN 6AS7GA so i can try it in my Bottlehead crack.
  
 The Thompson 6080 is another good tube for the CRACK.


----------



## thecrow

a question to the floor
  
 i have a gec 6as7g tube with no pin locator (the thing in the middle whatever that is called) on it. i can see a mark in the hole that is there where this locator was that would SUGGEST where the little notch was to indicate how the tube goes in.
  
 however if i put the tube in that way the plates inside line up differently to the other two gec tubes i have. not all three tubes have the exact same branding from memory.
  
 does the direction of the plates indicate anything or cause concern in putting it this way? is that a worry? what happens if i put the tube in the wrong way and then turn on my wa2?
  
 thanks


----------



## 3083joe

thecrow said:


> a question to the floor
> 
> i have a gec 6as7g tube with no pin locator (the thing in the middle whatever that is called) on it. i can see a mark in the hole that is there where this locator was that would SUGGEST where the little notch was to indicate how the tube goes in.
> 
> ...



Both my sets face different ways it my wa22 
In fact all 4 plates are facing different directions when installed.


----------



## MIKELAP

thecrow said:


> a question to the floor
> 
> i have a gec 6as7g tube with no pin locator (the thing in the middle whatever that is called) on it. i can see a mark in the hole that is there where this locator was that would SUGGEST where the little notch was to indicate how the tube goes in.
> 
> ...


 
 Get these i always have some on hand you never know  just align holes and keyway with where broken key use to be .                                                      http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Octal-Tube-Replacement-Keyway-Adapters-Replaces-Broken-Guide-Pins-/121752512506?hash=item1c5903e7fa:g:q84AAOSwcwhVP4SM


----------



## thecrow

mikelap said:


> Get these i always have some on hand you never know  just align holes and keyway with where broken key use to be .                                                      http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Octal-Tube-Replacement-Keyway-Adapters-Replaces-Broken-Guide-Pins-/121752512506?hash=item1c5903e7fa:g:q84AAOSwcwhVP4SM


I believe I can see where the notch used to be next to the guide pin but what IF it's not right and I put the tubes in the amp?

I'm pretty confident it's apparent where the mitch was but I was worried as the plates weren't in the same angle as the others. But I read above that that isn't always the case


----------



## MIKELAP

ive put tubes where i shouldn't have put them before and it just didnt work that being said i removed them right away and like in picture its easy to find where key was  most of the time in my experience .


----------



## thecrow

Quote: 





mikelap said:


> ive put tubes where i shouldn't have put them before and it just didnt work that being said i removed them right away and like in picture its easy to find where key was  most of the time in my experience .


 
 i was thinking it looked obvious too, but "famous last words".
  
 looks like im good then - top right corner
  
 thanks


----------



## MIKELAP

thecrow said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yup.


----------



## thecrow

in fact i put a second pair of 6dj8s where the rectifiers go in the wa2 and listened for a minute before i realised this
  
 out of curiousity would this result in anything particular?


----------



## MIKELAP

thecrow said:


> in fact i put a second pair of 6dj8s where the rectifiers go in the wa2 and listened for a minute before i realised this
> 
> out of curiousity would this result in anything particular?


 
 Out of curiosity i would like to know the answer to that one also because i really dont know what happens in the amp when this happens


----------



## gibosi

Does anyone know anything about a Chatham CH1068? I have not been able to find a datasheet... According to the listing, these are twice the size of a 5998.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-QUAD-NOS-NIB-CHATHAM-CH1068-CH-1068-GIANT-HIGH-END-POWER-TUBES-VINTAGE-/281663196020


----------



## mordy

Hi thecrow,
  
 In my experience a tube put in the wrong way results in no sound and no harm is done.
  
 An inexpensive way of dealing with a tube with a missing guide pin is to mark the location of the guide pin notch on the base with a piece of colored tape or self stick label, or even just use a magic marker.
  
 The upside of broken guide pins is that it is an opportunity to get a very good buy on a tube. One seller sent me 5 tubes instead of two when the seller discovered that one of the pair I bid on had a missing guide pin....


----------



## punit

I use this for broken centre guide pins
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Octal-Tube-Replacement-Keyway-Adapters-Replaces-Broken-Guide-Pins-/121752512506


----------



## thecrow

Thanks for the tip top on that. Someone posted that earlier too. 

My tube went in fine but just wanted to make sure on what I was doing in case there were serious repercussions of an error


----------



## Mechans1

mordy said:


> Hi thecrow,
> 
> In my experience a tube put in the wrong way results in no sound and no harm is done.
> 
> ...


 

 My experiences have been mixed and not always benign.  The sound generated from improper pin out from lacking the guide pin key  has occasionally been a most raucous and painful sound.  I have not destroyed any tubes in my recollection but I think certainly could have. I have since used a marking system for the tube pin placement as  described and have been very cautious.  The Safety Keyway device shown above looks like a very good method to employ.
 And yes, once mastered that can be a way to buy very good tubes at significant discount. They will always sell at a discount barring a replaced key way.


----------



## Thenewguy007

How important is it to have matching tubes?
  
 Like if I buy two of the same type of tubes, but they are from were manufactured a few years apart & they have different test results, would that mess up the sound or would that only mean that one would age faster than the other?
  
 Also are there different tests way to test them?
 I seen a few tubes being rated as 76-76 /40
 and a few others of the same tube type being rated as 95-95 /60


----------



## thecrow

thenewguy007 said:


> How important is it to have matching tubes?
> 
> 
> Like if I buy two of the same type of tubes, but they are from were manufactured a few years apart & they have different test results, would that mess up the sound or would that only mean that one would age faster than the other?
> ...


im no expert here but from what I've read tubes don't need to be exactly matching but "around the mark". I also am under the impression that this is more important on power tubes due to these tubes affecting the overall volume via their gain on that - right v left channel


----------



## Ultrainferno

I'd say it is more important to get your input tubes matched, but having matched powertubes sure doesn't hurt


----------



## thecrow

ultrainferno said:


> I'd say it is more important to get your input tubes matched, but having matched powertubes sure doesn't hurt


Are input tubes the same as driver tubes?

Also re the tung sol 5998s did the dimple plates come in black and grey? If so does it make a difference?


----------



## adeadcrab

driver = input


----------



## SonicTrance

thecrow said:


> ultrainferno said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say it is more important to get your input tubes matched, but having matched powertubes sure doesn't hurt
> ...


 
 I can't hear any difference between the two. It seems like the older 5998's, from the 50's, used the matte grey plates and the newer tubes used the black shiny plates. Don't quote me on this though.


----------



## thecrow

sonictrance said:


> I can't hear any difference between the two. It seems like the older 5998's, from the 50's, used the matte grey plates and the newer tubes used the black shiny plates. Don't quote me on this though.


That might explain what i've seen then. Thanks


----------



## mordy

The measurements of tubes always have to be seen in the context what a NOS tube would measure. Testers use very different scales. You want the two triodes in a dual triode to measure about the same. If they measure very different it may effect the sound stage.
  
 Somebody will advertise a tube as measuring 55/54 with good being 25. My assumption is that twice the value of good puts it into "new" category, but I am not sure if I am right.
  
 Some people will state the values as a percentage, for example 85%/84%; or 110%/110%. My assumption is that 85% is OK, and 110% is new.
  
 If the stated value is 45%/50% I would be cautious, especially if the tube is rare and expensive.
  
 Would appreciate if others could weigh in on this topic.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Your logic is the same as mine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Most of mine have been bought untested. Just advertised as NOS.
 All that have been advertised as NOS have been. You can just tell.
 Usually a bit dirty and in original boxes. Pins have no signs of scraps.
  
 I just received my last 3 sets of GE6AS7GA's today. I now have 17 sets.
 Seller threw in 4 JAN6X4WA tubes as well. Whatever those are. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I will see if someone has a amp that can use them.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Your logic is the same as mine.
> 
> ...


 
 How is the bass with those GE 6AS7GA......as good as mullard 6080 ?


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> How is the bass with those GE 6AS7GA......as good as mullard 6080 ?


 

 I would say they were very similar. Mullard is a better tube in the end. Not much in it tho. To my ears the Mullard brings out vocals a liitle better and smoother. A nicer mid-range.
  
 For my purpose I'm content with the GE. Cheaper and totally noise free in my amp (Mullard is not). So that is why I stocked up.


----------



## whirlwind

^ Thanks ^


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Seller threw in 4 JAN6X4WA tubes as well. Whatever those are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is a Full-Wave rectifier:
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6x4.html
  
 Apparently equal to an EZ90. Can't say which amps use these....


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> It is a Full-Wave rectifier:
> 
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6x4.html
> 
> Apparently equal to an EZ90. Can't say which amps use these....


 
  
 They are cute looking things. I think I will just hold onto them for nostalgic reasons.


----------



## Mechans1

I thought they were rectifiers -  which are said to matter more than one would anticipate...  Not this rectifier but rectifiers in general.
 I was surprised with my very first  modern (speaker) tube amp. I started rolling "the driver tube" when I asked what do they do, I was do they essentially provide the "heat energy" for the out put tubes.  They were 6SN7s and had a dramatic impact on the sound so I didn't care about the explanation given, by the dealer no less.  I have a lot of 6SN7s in art because of this inexpensive Chinese Push Pull EL 34 amp, from a company few know - Consonance also called Opera Consonance.  The input and splitter are supposed to be 12AX7s but mine came with 12AT7s, thus I ended up with a bunch of both of those as well.  Curiously all of my rolling seemed to result in clearly audible differences with this amp. I can't say that is true for all of the subsequent tube amps I bought.


----------



## 3083joe

Well after finally receiving my first pair of we421a tubes. I have to say they sound a lot differnent from the 5998s. I fill the 5998 were very dirty or not as detailed. 
The 421s are more define and holographic. 
Not as nice as GEC 6as7g but closer than anything else.


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Well after finally receiving my first pair of we421a tubes. I have to say they sound a lot differnent from the 5998s. I fill the 5998 were very dirty or not as detailed.
> The 421s are more define and holographic.
> Not as nice as GEC 6as7g but closer than anything else.


 
  
 What year were the WE manufactured? And what year were the 5998 manufactured?


----------



## Johnnysound

Just getting into 6AS7G tubes for the "ultimate" mod of the LDMKIII, not exactly "plug and play", quite a bit of DIY here involving external PS and voltage regulation, but sonic rewards were there, first tests showed a big, full bodied, dynamic sound, even with NOS RCA tubes. On the driver side, per the invaluable advice of the gurus in the LDIII tube rolling thread, I found that the Siemens C3G was indeed exceptional, super wide band and powerful, all the 6SN7GTs used as powers just danced to the tune of these demanding drivers, revealing quite distinct personalities. Some were up to the task and some not. In my learning curve about tubes (tube 101) I discovered that 6AS7Gs are ultralinear as power tubes, but its top performance depends on high GM/high current drivers, and of course a strong power supply. You need amperes here, to allow for overhead and dynamic swings, so I do believe that 1.5 or even 2X the spec is mandatory. I am not convinced that all the HP amps can do this, a very demanding tube for shure..received this pristine quartet of NOS RCAs and I guessed 1951 or 52, but in fact date codes revealed that 3 are 1949 and one 1946...nice, this is the oldest one I have...


----------



## abvolt

I have 3 sets of late 40's rca as well really enjoy there sound..


----------



## JamieMcC

SVETLANA
 Beware if anyone is bidding on these they certainly don't look like GEC to me more like Russian  Svetlana's
  

  
  
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GEC-6AS7G-A1834-ECC230-2pcs-green-letters-cup-getter-tubes-valves-fully-tested-/301805011826?hash=item4644fb0372:g:K~kAAOSw585WUJRC


----------



## 3083joe

jamiemcc said:


> SVETLANA
> Beware if anyone is bidding on these they certainly don't look like GEC to me more like Russian  Svetlana's
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yep round plates


----------



## abvolt

more fakes, some might be surprised just how easy those stickers are to get..


----------



## whirlwind

jamiemcc said:


> SVETLANA
> Beware if anyone is bidding on these they certainly don't look like GEC to me more like Russian  Svetlana's
> 
> 
> ...


 
 They sure are.....hopefully nobody falls for that.


----------



## Lord Raven

What is wrong with sellers? He would probably make 200 for a pair or more.. Can this be reported to eBay?


----------



## Ultrainferno

lord raven said:


> What is wrong with sellers? He would probably make 200 for a pair or more.. Can this be reported to eBay?




He is also selling these. Maybe he doesn't know. 

http://m.benl.ebay.be/itm/GEC-6AS7G-A1834-ECC230-2pcs-New-Old-Stock-Boxed-MINT-tubes-valves-fully-tested-/301805009090?nav=WATCHING_ACTIVE


----------



## Dogmatrix

ultrainferno said:


> He is also selling these. Maybe he doesn't know.
> 
> http://m.benl.ebay.be/itm/GEC-6AS7G-A1834-ECC230-2pcs-New-Old-Stock-Boxed-MINT-tubes-valves-fully-tested-/301805009090?nav=WATCHING_ACTIVE


 
 I sent this guy a message through Ebay a few days ago when the auction came up politely asking if he was aware these were Russian made and not GEC
 I have had no reply so I assume he is aware


----------



## Dogmatrix

lord raven said:


> What is wrong with sellers? He would probably make 200 for a pair or more.. Can this be reported to eBay?


 
  Item​ reported as fake
 Interesting to see what happens


----------



## mordy

Hi Johnnysound,
  
 Welcome to the ultimate LD MKIII/IV mod! The power tubes make a big overall difference in sound. IMHO they set the foundation for the music - think rhythm section in a band.
  
 You can test the effect of the 2.5A power tubes in the LD by playing a tune and then switching off the external power supply to the heaters of the power tubes. The amp will continue to play, but not as loud. Another caveat - the signal is too weak to work for headphones, but enough, at least in my system, for my amp to drive my speakers. (I am using my LD MKIII as a pre-amp.)
  
 The difference is akin to grape juice vs a good wine, or if that's not your taste, the difference between a flat tepid glass of soda compared to a cold fizzy one LOL.
  
 And now another piece of good news: I tried many different 2.5A power tubes in my LD MKIII and found an inexpensive and plentiful tube that outperformed the others. Try a pair of copper rod GE , Sylvania or RCA 6AS7GA. You should be able to pick these up for less $15 each - sometimes much less. (Some people claim that copper rods do not make any difference since they only have a support function - the heaters are located inside the rods.) Be it what it may, the tubes with the copper rods sounded better to me.
  
 Disclaimer: I have not tried Bendix, GEC, Mullard 6080's and GEC 1834A as they are quite expensive. But I have compared them to the Chatham, RCA 6AS7G, Svetlana 6H13C, Shuguang 6N5PJ,  and a bunch of different 6080 tubes (RCA, Chatham, Raytheon, Philips). (The Sylvania 6080 also sounded quite good.)
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Lord Raven

dogmatrix said:


> Item​ reported as fake
> Interesting to see what happens


 
 Everyone who did bid on these two fake pair of GEC tubes are showing as private listing bidder, I bet these are seller's fake accounts LOL


----------



## abvolt

Some sellers choose to to create private listing, the reasons can be legitimate or maybe in this case illegitimate either way too bad for whoever wins..


----------



## Dogmatrix

Another pair of Russians are up this time from Germany with Telefunken branding asking 89 euro . Buyer beware
 Nothing has happened so far following my reporting the GEC pair , auction is still active
 Don't think I will bother reporting any more
 Get to know the tubes you hunt for and be careful


----------



## abvolt

yeah I agree I've seen fakes of every price range on ebay, buyer beware


----------



## Skylab

Just for what it's worth, lots of companies rebranded Russian tubes, especially toward the end of the tube era. I had some Sylvania 6AS7G tubes that were rebranded Svetlanas. They were unquestionably "authentic" - Sylvania had rebranded them. 

Just have to be able to spot Russan tubes.


----------



## Johnnysound

mordy said:


> Hi Johnnysound,
> 
> Welcome to the ultimate LD MKIII/IV mod! The power tubes make a big overall difference in sound. IMHO they set the foundation for the music - think rhythm section in a band.
> 
> ...




Yes sir !!! I also use the LDIII as a preamp, and with all due respect to its virtues as an HP amp, this one is an absolutely terrific preamp, the best by far I ever used (and I have tested many, tube and SS) I dont know, maybe simpler is better in audio, but this little OTL just made my SS amps and speakers sing as never before. Even in its standard form ! Every mod or tube rolling suggested in the LD thread resulted in an improvement, and the C3Gs/6SN7 combo, with my gear, sounded so good that I doubted anything would better it. The 6SN7GTB tall bottles in particular, seemed to follow the C3Gs hi-def sonic character the best, better than older versions, and from those the ITT/Hitachis and the Tungsols really stand out, with the Hitachis being my favorites for its really unique 3D presentation. That was before the 6AS7Gs...

I am only a little worried because my LDIII heats up a lot with the big tubes...even with external PS, why is this ? It does not make sense since I am giving the 2.5 amps and heating the tubes from outside, It looks like the big ones drain a lot of juice also in the signal department, which is good with the C3gs, heavy duty ones...but I wonder if the poor little amp will survive the ordeal...My initial testing setup consists of 49 vintage RCA 6AS7Gs, GE6AS7GAs and Mullard NOS 6080s. So far I must say that I love the sound of the RCAs, and in this early stage this does not mean than they are "better" than the others, I simply liked its sound, feel it more open, promising even with NOS tubes, and yes, they have a prominent bass that mix beautifully with my 2 subwoofers...lets see what happens with proper burn in...


----------



## Dogmatrix

skylab said:


> Just for what it's worth, lots of companies rebranded Russian tubes, especially toward the end of the tube era. I had some Sylvania 6AS7G tubes that were rebranded Svetlanas. They were unquestionably "authentic" - Sylvania had rebranded them.
> 
> Just have to be able to spot Russan tubes


 
 Really it was very good of the Russians to have made such distinctive tubes
 I think the Telefunken tubes are legitimate rebrands but the GEC are not
 Although I don't think the seller applied the stickers I do think he realises what he is selling  
 Could use a couple of those GEC stickers myself , for legitimate replacement offcourse


----------



## thecrow

How about have 2 of us, I mean 2 of you, bid ridiculously high for tube tubes and then retract bids for the reason they are fakes? How high a bid........? How about.....


----------



## thecrow

And of course you don't want to make it look obvious so get to the high bid slowly


----------



## Lord Raven

thecrow said:


> How about have 2 of us, I mean 2 of you, bid ridiculously high for tube tubes and then retract bids for the reason they are fakes? How high a bid........? How about.....


 
 That's the evilest thing I could ever imagine, let's do it


----------



## whirlwind

skylab said:


> Just for what it's worth, lots of companies rebranded Russian tubes, especially toward the end of the tube era. I had some Sylvania 6AS7G tubes that were rebranded Svetlanas. They were unquestionably "authentic" - Sylvania had rebranded them.
> 
> Just have to be able to spot Russan tubes.


 
 +1


----------



## attmci

S/he has any one neg. feedback.
  

Seller did'nt aware the item was sold long time but relist again, time wasting!Buyer: 3***0 ( 63
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) 
During past month

  
 *Reply* by messinacat (26-Nov-15 12:20):

 Stop dribbling, bonker. Priority to winner and you are the loser. Off ebay now!


----------



## gibosi

dogmatrix said:


> Really it was very good of the Russians to have made such distinctive tubes
> I think the Telefunken tubes are legitimate rebrands but the GEC are not
> Although I don't think the seller applied the stickers I do think he realises what he is selling
> Could use a couple of those GEC stickers myself , for legitimate replacement offcourse


 
  
 And why not? Even after GEC ceased the production of vacuum tubes, they were still a viable company with a good name. When a customer contacted them requesting 6AS7, they certainly did not say, "Sorry, we don't make those anymore." Rather, their reply was, "How many?" And then they bought a suitable tube elsewhere, at the cheapest price they could find, slapped their label on it, and out the door it went. How is this any different than a GE 6080 being rebranded and sold as a Telefunken? In both cases, Telefunken and GEC were able to provide a suitable product to their customers. Happy customers are typically returning customers. It was, and still is, all about making a profit and staying in business.
  
 Again, relabeling was standard business practice since the beginning. There was certainly no guarantee whatsoever that the name on the tube was in fact the manufacturer. The primary function of the label was marketing.
  
 Personally, I never believe the labeling. Instead, I closely examine the pictures for construction details to ascertain where and when the tube was manufactured. And in fact, I am thrilled when I find a seller who has been mislead by the label and has no idea what he has. I have gotten some terrific deals this way. lol.


----------



## rosgr63

dogmatrix said:


> I sent this guy a message through Ebay a few days ago when the auction came up politely asking if he was aware these were Russian made and not GEC
> I have had no reply so I assume he is aware


 
  
 I bet you he is.
 He's an experienced seller, he knows very well.


----------



## mordy

Hi Johnnysound,
  
 You are right about the heat issue - the 6080 tubes run very hot. I solved this issue by installing two fans that I got from old PCs and power supplies. Used 12V wall warts/power adapters and/or an old PC power supply to power the fans.
  
 Rather than blowing air on the amp I mounted the fans to draw away air from the amp. My amp sits on an equipment rack and I mounted the fans with plastic ties to the shelf above the amp.
  
 In addition, I put my amp on some old aluminum cones with blue tack that I had from my early hi fi days to allow for greater air circulation.
  
 There are many ways to achieve cooling - my method did not cost me anything LOL. And it works very well - the amp runs very cool and can stay on for days non stop.
  
 Will send you a PM.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Dogmatrix

gibosi said:


> And why not? Even after GEC ceased the production of vacuum tubes, they were still a viable company with a good name. When a customer contacted them requesting 6AS7, they certainly did not say, "Sorry, we don't make those anymore." Rather, their reply was, "How many?" And then they bought a suitable tube elsewhere, at the cheapest price they could find, slapped their label on it, and out the door it went. How is this any different than a GE 6080 being rebranded and sold as a Telefunken? In both cases, Telefunken and GEC were able to provide a suitable product to their customers. Happy customers are typically returning customers. It was, and still is, all about making a profit and staying in business.
> 
> Again, relabeling was standard business practice since the beginning. There was certainly no guarantee whatsoever that the name on the tube was in fact the manufacturer. The primary function of the label was marketing.
> 
> Personally, I never believe the labeling. Instead, I closely examine the pictures for construction details to ascertain where and when the tube was manufactured. And in fact, I am thrilled when I find a seller who has been mislead by the label and has no idea what he has. I have gotten some terrific deals this way. lol.


 
 I think the GEC and Telefunken are different for a couple of reasons
 Lack of packaging and the angle of the stickers looks dodgy . Most British rebrands I have seen still had a box or at least a card tube . Quality is still important even in a failing company and the sticker person at GEC had probably stuck stickers for years perfectly straight . Maybe the sticker person was let go and the office boy was tasked with pulling the tubes out of the Russian egg crate and slapping on some stickers .
 I agree that argument is weak but possible
 More strongly
 British company law prohibits the "Made in England" tag being used on foreign goods . Most British rebrands have Foreign printed on them none I have seen other than these have "Made in England "
 I don't think GEC would have risked falling foul of the great British bureaucracy when compliance was a simple matter of trimming some labels  
 Perhaps in Germany or the USA compliance only required the fitting/printing of the label or the act of placing the tube in a box to qualify for a "made in xx " label
 Rebranding a Sylvania or RCA as GE or vise versa is completely different and does not breach any law I am aware of , same for GEC , Osram or Marconi


----------



## gibosi

dogmatrix said:


> British company law prohibits the "Made in England" tag being used on foreign goods . Most British rebrands have Foreign printed on them none I have seen other than these have "Made in England "
> I don't think GEC would have risked falling foul of the great British bureaucracy when compliance was a simple matter of trimming some labels


 
  
 This might have been true when using the labels "British Made" or "Made in Britain". But Russian-made tubes labeled "Made in England" are very common. I see it way too often, for example, Russian-made 6SN7s, to believe that all of them are fakes. So I have my doubts....
  
 This is one of my favorites.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Lol. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 That is a gem.
  
 Russian made tubes with a American brand labeled with made in England. That is a mutt with fleas.


----------



## Johnnysound

mordy said:


> Hi Johnnysound,
> 
> You are right about the heat issue - the 6080 tubes run very hot. I solved this issue by installing two fans that I got from old PCs and power supplies. Used 12V wall warts/power adapters and/or an old PC power supply to power the fans.
> 
> ...




Thanks a lot mordy, for a beginner like me, your advice has been invaluable from day one in the LDIII thread.


----------



## hpamdr

gibosi said:


> This might have been true when using the labels "British Made" or "Made in Britain". But Russian-made tubes labeled "Made in England" are very common. I see it way too often, for example, Russian-made 6SN7s, to believe that all of them are fakes. So I have my doubts....


 
 Some 6AS7G are in fact the  Russian 6H13C / 6H5C to detect those, a quick look on the getters will give you the  answer. If you see 2 Flying saucer _majority of Russian production_ or 2 squared ones you have a Russian tube.
 It doe not means that it sound crappy specially if you have squared getter. But it is not made in England, US , Germany...  just the base was soldered there or some paint added


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> dogmatrix said:
> 
> 
> > British company law prohibits the "Made in England" tag being used on foreign goods . Most British rebrands have Foreign printed on them none I have seen other than these have "Made in England "
> ...


 
  
  


badas said:


> ^
> 
> Lol.
> 
> ...


 
 Ha ha....good one gibosi.....those should have yellow caution tape wrapped around them


----------



## abvolt

I've also seen the same sylvania's labeled made in U.K. I had a pair which has since been sold one tube labeled made in U.K. the other made in USSR both sylvania's 6as7g with their original boxes, funny stuff..


----------



## Ultrainferno

Both "GEC" sales are still going... (for a few hours)
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/301805009090
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/301805011826
  
 You would think people paying this kind of money for a tube would recognize a Russians UFO


----------



## Dogmatrix

Still only half way to full GEC price
 Quite odd that people recognise GEC as valuable and so demonstrate some knowledge , but can't pick a Russian tube
 Someone is going to win a very expensive pair of used stickers


----------



## abvolt

I see both pairs sold 600. not a bad take for a scam, considering one can buy those cheap Russian tubes in bulk  for  very little..


----------



## hypnos1

abvolt said:


> I see both pairs sold 600. not a bad take for a scam, considering one can buy those cheap Russian tubes in bulk  for  very little..


 
  
 That is bad/sad news indeed...but cannot understand _anyone_ not seeing the second pair were _obviously_ not "proper" GECs! And as for that seller not recognising(???!!!) they were cheap Russians, and therefore describing them accordingly, is bordering on pure fraud - "ignorance" can hardly be used as a defence here, I suspect...
  
 All we can hope for is that the buyer is following this thread and uses ebayer protection to the full, lol!
  
 At the other end of the scale, a sharp eye can indeed strike gold - as I was lucky enough to discover a short while ago...ie. a repetition of what a member here was also lucky enough to find a long while ago now - a NOS GEC/Osram A1834 (round-bottom base!) labelled "Haltron" 6AS7G, at a steal of a price...


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> That is bad/sad news indeed...but cannot understand _anyone_ not seeing the second pair were _obviously_ not "proper" GECs! And as for that seller not recognising(???!!!) they were cheap Russians, and therefore describing them accordingly, is bordering on pure fraud - "ignorance" can hardly be used as a defence here, I suspect...


 
  
 Labels can never be trusted! In this case, it was the responsibility of the buyer to perform the necessary "due diligence" to verify that these tubes were actually manufactured by GEC.
  
 Again, given the prevalence of relabeling in this industry, there is absolutely no guarantee that the name on the label is in fact the manufacturer. In this case, the seller provided very good pictures which clearly revealed that these tubes were manufactured on a Russian assembly line. The buyer should have done the necessary due diligence before bidding. Generally, it is not the seller's responsibility to "educate" the buyer. And further, the seller is not obligated to protect the buyer from his/her own ignorance.
  
_Caveat emptor_. Be careful out there!


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Labels can never be trusted! In this case,* it was the responsibility of the buyer* to perform the necessary "due diligence" to verify that these tubes were actually manufactured by GEC.
> 
> Again, given the prevalence of relabeling in this industry, there is absolutely no guarantee that the name on the label is in fact the manufacturer.* In this case, the seller provided very good pictures* which clearly revealed that these tubes were manufactured on a Russian assembly line. The buyer should have done the necessary due diligence before bidding. Generally, it is not the seller's responsibility to "educate" the buyer. And further, the seller is not obligated to protect the buyer from his/her own ignorance.
> 
> _Caveat emptor_. Be careful out there!


 
  
 Sorry gibosi, but according to ebay rules it is *not *the responsibility of the buyer to study 'pictures' - it is his responsibility to *read* the listing description carefully. And the seller has strict listing rules he should abide by as part of terms and conditions...and I quote  :
  
http://Ensure your item is authentic You can't list replicas, fakes, counterfeits or other illegal copies on eBay. For example: Don't list an item that bears the brand name or logo of a company that did not manufacture or authorise the product Don't list homemade or otherwise unauthorised copies of music, movies, television programmes or software Under the law, it is no excuse to say that you didn't know the item you were selling was a counterfeit or a pirated copy. *It's your responsibility to investigate your source for product and stand behind everything you sell.*
  
*http://2. Ensure the statements in your listing are accurate Ensure that all statements and claims in your listing are true and complete*. Rights owners may object to listings that contain false, inaccurate or misleading claims about their products. If you're not sure whether a statement you want to make is true, double-check it and rely only on credible sources. Someone on a message board may sound like they know what they're talking about but you're the one who will be responsible for the content. Making sure that your listing is accurate and complete will not only help you avoid intellectual property concerns, it will also help buyers understand what they're buying. This will minimise any miscommunication that might lead to a poor transaction and negative feedback.
  
 In addition, ebayers selling internationally must abide by the consumer laws of the countries targeted - and here in the UK especially, there are very strict laws regarding any kind of misleading advertising, so that _'caveat emptor'  _is no protection for fraudulent - or careless - instances of seller behaviour.
  
 Hence I stand by my previous statements re the particular listing in question, lol...


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry gibosi, but according to ebay rules it is *not *the responsibility of the buyer to study 'pictures' - it is his responsibility to *read* the listing description carefully. And the seller has strict listing rules he should abide by as part of terms and conditions...and I quote  :
> 
> http://Ensure your item is authentic You can't list replicas, fakes, counterfeits or other illegal copies on eBay. For example: Don't list an item that bears the brand name or logo of a company that did not manufacture or authorise the product Don't list homemade or otherwise unauthorised copies of music, movies, television programmes or software Under the law, it is no excuse to say that you didn't know the item you were selling was a counterfeit or a pirated copy. *It's your responsibility to investigate your source for product and stand behind everything you sell.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 Given the prevalence of relabeled tubes, your interpretation of the eBay rules is unreasonable and unworkable. Every vendor would have to be able to recognize whether a tube had been relabeled, and further, ascertain the original manufacturer. As an obvious example, this would present an almost insurmountable hurdle when trying to sell Motorola, Philips, Haltron and similarly relabeled tubes. Very few vendors have adequate knowledge and experience to enable them to comply with such a high standard. But notice the word "authorise" above. Motorola and other rebranders were most certainly authorized to sell the tubes they relabeled. So describing a tube as a Motorola is most certainly not misleading or fraudulent. And of course, this extends to all examples of authorized relabeling, such as a Brimar relabeled as a Mullard, and so on.
  
 Based on these eBay rules, the recent sale of a pair of 6AS7G that has everyone all worked up does not appear to be misleading or fraudulent. The tubes were labeled as GEC. This is a fact verified by the pictures. And according to eBay rules, the vendor did not lie or misrepresent that fact. While some may believe the tubes are fake, there is absolutely no proof to back up such a claim. It is equally possible that they were simply relabeled, and it is doubtful that anyone alive today, including the seller, knows the real truth. With no proof to the contrary, the vendor cannot be faulted for assuming that the relabeling was "authorized."
  
 Hence, I stand by my assertion: Labels cannot be trusted. It is the buyer's responsibility to perform the necessary due diligence, closely examining all the information provided, both text and pictures, to verify that the listed tubes are the "real deal".
  
 By the way H1, using your interpretation of eBay rules, it would appear that the listing for the Haltron 6AS7G you recently purchased was misleading. Haltron most certainly did not manufacture that tube...
  
 Cheers


----------



## mordy

Hi G and h1,
  
 Once a judge had two people in front of him, arguing over a matter.
  
 The first person presented his case. After hearing him, the judge said: You are right.
  
 Then the second person presented his side of the story. After listening to him, the judge said: You are right.
  
 Whereupon the first person said: How is it possible for you to say that he is right, and I am right?
  
 Answers the judge: You are right!


----------



## Oskari

Mordy, you are right!

(But seller is not a very nice person if concealing the truth…)


----------



## hpamdr

oskari said:


> Mordy, you are right!
> 
> (But seller is not a very nice person if concealing the truth…)


 
 Oskary you are right, the seller should be blacklisted on HeadFi.
 He is in tube business and know what he did ! He even show for some tube with an avo lampmeter where 100% is on AVG 
  
 Mordy, To my knowledge a judge never say you are right unless you plead guilty.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi, of course you are right concerning the minefield of tube labelling and the _general_ unfeasibility surrounding verification of every single tube - or of many other items listed on ebay! And yes, we buyers need to be as vigilant as possible, lol...
  
_However, _as hpamdr states, this seller is obviously not an "amateur" and has had plenty of experience in this particular field. Therefore it is a totally different ballgame in this case - which puts the onus much more on the seller to abide by ebay listing rules, not to mention the kinds of stringent laws governing such transactions in countries such as here in the UK (Our Trading Standards Dept. would be all over something like this...). Ebay selling rules clearly state that "ignorance" is no defence in these cases.
 This is also not my "interpretation" of said ebay rules...it is their statement of _facts..._
  
 And so, whereas in general _full__y_ accurate/correct information is indeed likely to be unworkable, at least in individual cases the buyer now has very good protection and recourse under these ebay rules...(Once again, I only hope the buyer in question realises he would have a very good case indeed!).
  
 But yes, _*be extra careful out there, y'all!!*_  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 ps.  My own good fortune re the Haltron-labelled GEC tube is hardly relevant with regard to this particular case, lol!


----------



## Jeb Listens

^ I would agree. 
  
 There's "what you can get away with on eBay", then there's not making a ******-bag listing on eBay, which you know has a high probability of resulting in some less-knowledegable / newbie tube roller getting screwed over.
  
 Still, Gibosi's (and Hypnos') message to be super-vigilant is a very good one indeed, since it's clear that eBay will do you few favours in protecting you against irresponsible sellers or your own lack of experience. 
  
 Since lots of people here are keeping a close-watch on eBay I hope we'll all do our bit to call out such listings to help those who are new to the game.  
  
 This thread is the number one google hit for 6AS7g rolling - so it's a great platform for doing so. 
  
  
  
 edit:  oh wow you can't say ***** here. Who knew.


----------



## gibosi

It seems to me that some here believe that eBay should interpret their rules one way for experienced sellers and another way for inexperienced sellers (like someone who has been given the job of liquidating an estate and knows nothing about tubes). But I am quite sure the rules are the same for all sellers, simply, the vendor must provide an accurate description. And like it nor not, the above referenced vendor did just that, using text and pictures. Without a doubt, the tubes the buyer receives will be exactly as described in the listing and I seriously doubt that the buyer will be able to make a convincing case that he/she was deliberately deceived by the seller. I may be wrong, but based on my experience, having purchased something over 1000 tubes on eBay, I doubt it. This doesn't mean that I approve of this vendor's behavior, but I don't think he broke the rules.
  
 Like most things in life, knowledge is key. Do your due diligence. Google is an amazing resource. Learn as much as you can about the tubes you want. Most importantly, look at lots of pictures so you can recognize any distinguishing features. And there are many kind folks on this forum who will be happy to answer your questions.
  
 And finally, don't bid on expensive tubes until you are absolutely positive that the tubes in the listing are precisely the tubes you hope they are.
  
 Cheers


----------



## hypnos1

Ah well g, to each his own opinion lol...
  
 Your closing advice should certainly be well heeded however...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers!


----------



## Jeb Listens

I'm just pleased to hear no one actually approves of that kind of seller-behaviour, regardless of what is technically allowed/prohibited.  I think lots of people here just thought it was a bit of a lame listing. Morally, more than anything else.  
  
 Of course he probably didn't _have_ to either a) mention he didn't know if they were really GEC manufactured or  b) clearly state they were Russian 
  
 But we all know it would have at least been the decent thing to do.   I fully agree that doesn't count for anything in the wild-world of tube buying and you most certainly shouldn't depend on it - even from experienced tube sellers with 100% feedback.  
  
  
 On the subject of 6AS7Gs.  After listening to most of the available options - I must say the Tung-Sol 6AS7G really stands out for me.  Perhaps even more than the 5998. Perhaps doesn't have the balance/resolution of the 5998 but tonally it's just more aligned with my tastes.  It seems to throw a holographic mid-range that I didn't quite experience with any of the others to the same extent.  A really nice tube indeed. 
  
 (If anyone tells me these are actually "fakes", I'm selling everything tomorrow and going solid-state).


----------



## gibosi

jeb listens said:


> On the subject of 6AS7Gs.  After listening to most of the available options - I must say the Tung-Sol 6AS7G really stands out for me.  Perhaps even more than the 5998. Perhaps doesn't have the balance/resolution of the 5998 but tonally it's just more aligned with my tastes.  It seems to throw a holographic mid-range that I didn't quite experience with any of the others to the same extent.  A really nice tube indeed.
> 
> (If anyone tells me these are actually "fakes", I'm selling everything tomorrow and going solid-state).


 
  
 Yours are the real thing. 
  
 However, it is important to remember that prior to Tung-Sol's acquisition of Chatham, in the late 1950's, Tung-Sol did not manufacture the 6ASG. They simply sourced and relabeled this tube from RCA and Chatham. Yours appear to have been manufactured after the acquisition, in 1966, in a factory once owned and operated by Chatham. Enjoy.


----------



## gibosi

I recently had a rather crazy thought...  We occasionally see these 6AS7G, labeled "Made in England", but obviously manufactured on a Russian assembly line. However, we don't know where that assembly line was located. Is it possible that in the waning years of British vacuum tube production, since there was still some demand for replacement tubes, some entity purchased Russian vacuum tube assembly line equipment and set up a factory in England?  lol.


----------



## vapman

eBay will be concerned that you received the same item that was shown in the auction... that is to say, the sellers posts photos of the item, unless the sellers' description contradicts what is in the photos, if that is what you got then eBay says the transaction was legit but you should have been more careful not to buy something you didn't want.
  
 What eBay won't protect against is sellers who are out to take advantage of less knowledgeable buyers. So you can't bid a high amount on something, realize you got ripped off, and then be like "hey that isn't very nice!", eBay will be like "as long as you paid it and the seller sent you the proper item and it arrived intact there's no problem here".
  
 I stopped selling on eBay in 2012 due to 9/10 auctions I sold result in having to relist due to non-payment  but I signed up and started selling in 1998 so I feel any situation that could have happened with buying or selling on eBay, I experienced it.
  
 Just my 2 cents strictly regarding the eBay dishonest seller comments. I don't agree with the seller's actions from a moral standpoint but from eBay's ethics they base their rules off of there isn't anything wrong there. After all, much of eBay's business comes from sellers "ripping off" unknowing buyers. If it didn't, why would the "Best Match" setting provide you with the more expensive deals eBay has to offer?
  
 I don't know anything about UK laws but out here there is no sort of legal protection against a seller ripping you off because you didn't know what you were buying and overpaid.
  
 edit 2: It actually was common that later tube stuff was made with either Russian assembly lines or within Russia but on contract of out of country companies. Reminds me of Electro-Harmonix/Sovtek in the 80's who outsourced all their tube production to Russia as that was the last place that still had manufacturing sites for tubes. Tube technology lasted a while out there! I think, though, that would lead me to believe later production tubes would be made in Russia and shipped out, unless Russian companies were liquidating their assembly lines and sending them out of the country in this time period, leading to a scenario such as that which @gibosi describes


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> Yours are the real thing.


 
  
 I was going to tell Jeb that they are Shuguangs...


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> I recently had a rather crazy thought...  We occasionally see these 6AS7G, labeled "Made in England", but obviously manufactured on a Russian assembly line. However, we don't know where that assembly line was located. Is it possible that in the waning years of British vacuum tube production, since there was still some demand for replacement tubes, some entity purchased Russian vacuum tube assembly line equipment and set up a factory in England?  lol.


 
  
 You got at least the crazy part right. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm only aware of Svetlana having made them; so, this shouldn't be too far off: https://goo.gl/maps/FkvCQTcLU412


----------



## Jeb Listens

oskari said:


> I was going to tell Jeb that they are Shuguangs...




LOL. Anybody want to buy a Shuguang-Tung-Sol with a GEC sticker? 

Made in England. Tested Good. No returns.


----------



## Dogmatrix

I don't have much concern for fake 6as7g tubes , it is unfortunate when someone is caught out but the Russian tubes are distinctive
 Greater concern are the very close replica tubes being produced in china 274b for example . Very little effort would yield an almost perfect WE274b worth $1500
 As for the recent GEC I think the buyer has a very good case . Due to certain unique features it is beyond reasonable doubt that these tubes are Russian therefore the "Made in England " label clearly visible in the photographs is false and misleading
 Anyone still reading I received a 6as7gyb a couple of weeks ago , it is the "brown base " version of the 6as7ga by General Electric no difference sonically but it is very pretty


----------



## vapman

dogmatrix said:


> I don't have much concern for fake 6as7g tubes , it is unfortunate when someone is caught out but the Russian tubes are distinctive
> Greater concern are the very close replica tubes being produced in china 274b for example . Very little effort would yield an almost perfect WE274b worth $1500
> As for the recent GEC I think the buyer has a very good case . Due to certain unique features it is beyond reasonable doubt that these tubes are Russian therefore the "Made in England " label clearly visible in the photographs is false and misleading
> Anyone still reading I received a 6as7gyb a couple of weeks ago , it is the "brown base " version of the 6as7ga by General Electric no difference sonically but it is very pretty


 

 While anyone who is knowledgeable about tubes might be able to look at it and immediately say "yes, this could not be possibly made in england", the buyer only has any hope for eBay to step in and defend him if he is able to prove the tube as pictured in the auction is a counterfeit.
  
 They will consider it if you can prove it's a counterfeit item. If it was made 30, 40, 50 years ago, they won't even listen. Proving your item is counterfeit even if it actually is, gets to be quite difficult. If eBay has trouble deciding if a Pokemon game boy game someone buys this year is fake or not, what are they going to do when they see someone complaining their 50 year old tube that says "made in england" was actually made in russia? It is not a very good case.
  
 I hope as much as anyone else the buyer is able to achieve a satisfactory solution here, but I'm simply stating it how eBay is going to look at it. I think he has a much better shot at working things out directly with the seller and pointing to the discussion of the tube in this thread than having eBay step in.
  
 Not to mention - if and when eBay steps in to make their judgement call on if it's fake or not, you don't want that to be the first avenue of resolution, because if eBay says "sorry the transaction was legit", you have no further recourse. the case is closed off. no further attempts of resolution. that is why i urge the buyer to discuss with the seller and convince the seller to accept a return before bringing in eBay when they have the power to say "we don't care to find out if the tube is real or not, you got what you ordered, it's what was in the auction photographs made in england or not, case closed".


----------



## thecrow

The buyer will never know. S/he would've already known if they were to know. That's how these things go. Even retailers who overprice stuff go with that concept of let the buyer figure out what price this really should be and I'll sell X amount to those that don't know it can't be bothered. 

If it was me, and I'm a reasonable guy, and I found out pretty soon I didn't buy what was listed as a "Gec 6as7g", regardless of photo, I would contact PayPal and/or eBay and say this tube is not what it was titled (hence described) as, here are photos of what Gec 6as7gs look like and request (later demand) a refund for the product not bring as listed. And if there was any disputes or resistance to this I would demand/expect the seller to surprise and show me evidence of why this could be what he described it as. 

Simple! End of story! Yippity yippita!!

Now let's keep rolling those 6as7gsabd forget about these dodgy pr1ck5 as there's too mNy out there in the world.


----------



## thecrow

And if I really needed to I would find the seller's home phone number and call up and tell his mum what he's up to.


----------



## abvolt

not sure why people are so surprised or even shocked about this, the worlds full of untrustworthy people. we've all heard the old adage "buyer beware" I've bought fakes in the past my self, live & learn..


----------



## hypnos1

Well folks, despite differing opinions on this temporary sojourn into the murkier side of ebay, I can only hope that perhaps as a result, even if we have only helped one unsuspecting member (or visitor here) in the search for tubes, then it has all been worthwhile, lol!...and this is indeed just one of the important elements in our collective head-fi forums...
  
 And who knows...given that I'm sure a good few ebay sellers keep a very close eye on us - (based on how all of a sudden, tubes we may rave about mysteriously leap in price almost overnight! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) -  this kind of coverage might just have them thinking twice about their listings lol!  Having said that, there are in fact _many_ really good, fair and honest ebayers out there nonetheless...
  
 And - to my surprise - there are also _some_ at ebay HQ who are in fact keenly on the side of the buyer...perhaps I have been extremely lucky, but the rare instances when I have had to cross swords with an ebayer, I received help - and quick resolution - way over and above what I expected. So there _is_ hope!...
  
 And yes, mckickflip, first port of call is _always_ best to try and resolve issues with the ebayer first...most will probably recognise the "error of their ways" if ambiguity/incorrectness is pointed out *politely* (at first, anyway!) - if only to avoid negative feedback, lol...
  
 (This hobby of ours sure does encompass a good many aspects, n'est-ce pas?!...).


----------



## Mechans1

I would like to start a campaign -that ALL TUBES MATTER-  regardless of their origin or what type they are, all should be properly examined and given the chance to work in an audio system.
  
 NB:  I mean no insult, or to degrade or fail to acknowledge the  the all ________ matters movements that have been formed, organized and who have staged protests, asking for justice and seeking to eliminate inequality. The above is just lighthearted  play on words concerning my favorite hobby.


----------



## Mechans1

I have had good experiences regarding the few issues I have had with sellers on Ebay (Epray etc.).  Once for a nice vintage tuner which wasn't packed so much as had a loose roll of old cardboard wrapped around it.  I kid you not!.  It arrived with a nearly broken off tuning knob and was unusable.  The other was for a tube tester that was supposedly working, of course it wasn't.   I have bought hundreds of tubes without complication, but I have easy going expectations i.e. I never expect good labeling or cosmetic detail etc. but the auctions invariably have decent photos.


----------



## Stealth3si

In regards to RCA brand, I would like any input on anyone who have heard the difference, if any, between black and grey plates. I have read various responses, from black being better and vice versa, to no discernable difference or subtle differences or everything in between and vice versa.


----------



## Ultrainferno

Everyone prefers the black plates but sound wise I'm pretty sure there shouldn't be too much of a difference. I have all kinds and basically an RCA is an RCA (unless they're fake Russians 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
 They do look more pretty though. Just my $0.02


----------



## gibosi

For a somewhat different perspective, RCA manufactured this tube beginning in the late 1940's until at least the late 1970's, so some thirty years. Over that period of time, due to the introduction of new materials and technologies into the factory, plus, feedback from the field, the construction of these tubes occasionally changed. And generally speaking, different construction equals different sound. These tubes are relatively cheap, and if you like the RCA sound, I would encourage you to get a pair from each decade to see which you like the best.


----------



## bocosb

My 4 months old Mullard 6080 (bought NOS from Langrex) has developed some spots on the silver top coating, at closer inspection looks like the material is chipping away - will this affect the functionality of the tube? or the sound?


----------



## SonicTrance

A couple of weeks ago I received a quad set of NOS WE421A's.
 I never thought I'd find a matched quad set of these tubes, let alone buy them, lol. But when I saw these for sale I just had to get them.
  
 They are all made in 1967 week 52, and are new and unused. I was very curious how they would test in my Heathkit TT1A tester. As you may know, the WE421A datasheet suggests a GM of 20000, compared to the 14000 of a "normal" 5998. These all tested around 16500-17000 on my tester, which is quite far from the 20000 spec, but still way higher than any 5998 I've tested before. Now that I think about it, I've never actually seen a listing for a WE421A were the seller states a transconductance of 20000 umhos.
  
 In the past I've compared the 5998's to the GEC A1834/CV2523/6AS7G's. And found the GEC's to be the superior tube IMO. I've actually recently sold all my 5998's thinking that the GEC's were the only powertube I'd ever need.
 The 5998 has huge soundstage, clarity, detail and impact. But I found the GEC's to have just that plus more of everything and a warmer smoother sound than the 5998's.
  
 Now, comparing the GEC's to the WE421A's I've found the new (IMO) king of powertubes for my setup. I fell in love with their sound almost immediately. Bass slam is incredible, hits hard, fast and accurate. Amazing clarity and detail. Basically a 5998 on steroids! One thing I noticed though is with the GEC's I preferred using the Mullard ECC32/33/35 as drivers. With the WE421A's, the slightly warmer TS BGRP really lets these output tubes shine.
  
 So I think anyone that's stating that there's no difference between the 5998's and the 421A's just have not heard the 421A. Granted, none of my previous 5998's were manufactured in 1967, like these 421A's, nor were they NOS. But still, the difference is clearly noticeable. At least in my setup!
  
 YMMV, and all that good stuff.


----------



## whirlwind

sonictrance said:


> A couple of weeks ago I received a quad set of NOS WE421A's.
> I never thought I'd find a matched quad set of these tubes, let alone buy them, lol. But when I saw these for sale I just had to get them.
> 
> They are all made in 1967 week 52, and are new and unused. I was very curious how they would test in my Heathkit TT1A tester. As you may know, the WE421A datasheet suggests a GM of 20000, compared to the 14000 of a "normal" 5998. These all tested around 16500-17000 on my tester, which is quite far from the 20000 spec, but still way higher than any 5998 I've tested before. Now that I think about it, I've never actually seen a listing for a WE421A were the seller states a transconductance of 20000 umhos.
> ...


 
 Very, very nice.
  
 I agree with you on the 5998 and GEC  6AS7 sound....I love them both...but the GEC just seems to tick all of the boxes.


----------



## Mechans1

Are these microphonic , I see you put ?Duende Critura ? dampening rings on them I think. 
 I bought several 421As simply to avoid a long reiterative process like I have experienced with most every piece of tube gear I own.  Mine were tolerably noisy at first but sounded frail, they then developed really noticeable noise issues, not microphonia.  I didn't test them because, my tester is out for the count.  I knew they were all used, and think I was jus buying other peoples mistakes. They then my mistakes but I don't pass bad tubes on to other people, not knowingly that is for sure.  I try to be upfront about any issue tubes I have.  I rarely sell tubes anyway but prolly should. (yes the good ones).
 Was this a Private person or dealer or auction just curious?


----------



## SonicTrance

mechans1 said:


> Are these microphonic , I see you put ?Duende Critura ? dampening rings on them I think.
> I bought several 421As simply to avoid a long reiterative process like I have experienced with most every piece of tube gear I own.  Mine were tolerably noisy at first but sounded frail, they then developed really noticeable noise issues, not microphonia.  I didn't test them because, my tester is out for the count.  I knew they were all used, and think I was jus buying other peoples mistakes. They then my mistakes but I don't pass bad tubes on to other people, not knowingly that is for sure.  I try to be upfront about any issue tubes I have.  I rarely sell tubes anyway but prolly should. (yes the good ones).
> Was this a Private person or dealer or auction just curious?




No, they're not microphonic. I got those tube rings a while ago only cause they look good. And I always use them, regardless of tubes
I bought the tubes on ebay. Search for sold listings and you'll find them.


----------



## Oskari

bocosb said:


> My 4 months old Mullard 6080 (bought NOS from Langrex) has developed some spots on the silver top coating, at closer inspection looks like the material is chipping away - will this affect the functionality of the tube? or the sound?




That's the getter doing its job, the "getting". It is not a problem but it may become one if it continues at a rapid pace and depletes the silvery stuff. If the getter turns all white, the tube has a leak and is immediately toast.


----------



## mordy

Hi bocosb,
  
 I recently ordered a pair of these Mullards from Langrex as well - did not arrive yet. From what I have read Langrex has a  very responsive customer service. Why don't you ask them directly? Curious about what they will answer since I will be getting the same tubes myself.


----------



## whirlwind

I have been treating myself every Saturday night with these 6AS7 tubes for my listening session....the sound is epic with my HD800.
  
 I don't use them everyday, just once a week, and man do I ever look forward to it.


----------



## Oskari

whirlwind said:


>


 
  
 Those Osrams are fecking cute!


----------



## abvolt

sonictrance said:


> A couple of weeks ago I received a quad set of NOS WE421A's.
> I never thought I'd find a matched quad set of these tubes, let alone buy them, lol. But when I saw these for sale I just had to get them.
> 
> They are all made in 1967 week 52, and are new and unused. I was very curious how they would test in my Heathkit TT1A tester. As you may know, the WE421A datasheet suggests a GM of 20000, compared to the 14000 of a "normal" 5998. These all tested around 16500-17000 on my tester, which is quite far from the 20000 spec, but still way higher than any 5998 I've tested before. Now that I think about it, I've never actually seen a listing for a WE421A were the seller states a transconductance of 20000 umhos.
> ...


 
  
 dude your amp looks great. can only imagine how nice those 421's must sound..


----------



## SonicTrance

abvolt said:


> sonictrance said:
> 
> 
> > A couple of weeks ago I received a quad set of NOS WE421A's.
> ...




Thanks! If you wanna see the insides, go to the mk6/mk8 mod thread. It's pretty far from stock now
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782183/little-dot-mk8se-mk6-super-mods


----------



## Johnnysound

Just doing some tube rolling with my recently modified LDMKIII (to accept 6AS7G types) , and my impressions are a bit different about certain tubes (from what I have read in this thread about that same tubes) , but I am using the LDIII mostly as a preamp with SS amps, speakers, and this is of course a different sonic perspective. The SS amps add another stage of amplification, and while my NAD amps are quite neutral and "tube friendly", my speakers (LSA 2 floorstanders) are also very "monitor like" which is no surprise since they derive from from HPs territory. the sound given by the same tubes application sonic perspective


----------



## mordy

Hi Johnnysound,
  
  
 Is something missing from your post?
  
 I used my MKIII exclusively as a preamp, and found that the 2.5A power tubes made a very big difference. At that time I found the Sylvania 6080 to be the ones I liked best.
  
 Since then I have moved to the Elise, and discovered another inexpensive powertube that sounds great - the 6AS7GA.


----------



## Johnnysound

johnnysound said:


> Just doing some tube rolling with my recently modified LDMKIII (to accept 6AS7G types) , and my impressions are a bit different about certain tubes (from what I have read in this thread about that same tubes) , but I am using the LDIII mostly as a preamp with SS amps, speakers, and this is of course a different sonic perspective. The SS amps add another stage of amplification, and while my NAD amps are quite neutral and "tube friendly", my speakers (LSA 2 floorstanders) are also very "monitor like" which is no surprise since they derive from ..... the LS1 monitors.
> 
> Sorry, my last post went off unfinished...and garbled. Anyway, this setup sounds it best (IMHO) with tubes on the warmer side, with good spatial qualities and "body", which are a better match with the rest of my components. So far, the best sounding are the "coke bottle" RCAs 6AS7G (1949), GE 6AS7Gs,(1954) and the Mullard 6080s (1965), even as they are all NOS and need more hours, and I mention the years because (as said many times in this thread) I found that tubes are like wines, some vintages are better than others...
> 
> The pair of GEs are rebranded Tung Sols or Chathams...the same tubes. I am waiting for a set of Chathams to make a direct comparison, but -apart from being identical from the pics- the GEs have that unique Tung Sol "house sound", dynamic, clear, coherent from top to bottom. About the RCAs, I have read negative comments like "veiled", "thick bass", or similar. Well, perhaps with another vintage, not with my 49s "premier cru classe", the prominent bass is there, obviously an RCA trademark, but they are not "veiled" in any way, and they sound supremely organic, relaxed and natural, with a resonant, vibrant quality, and only a bit subdued dynamics that only add to the whole, a classic tube sound if there is any. You can sit down and enjoy the music for hours. The Mullard 6080 (Mitcham, 65) are seriously good tubes, on the neutral side with exceptional extension and just the right touch of warmth. However, mine are NOS and I feel this one needs a good burn in to settle, right now they sometimes went pass the line in the highs...with a Vivaldi violin concerto, I amused myself by combining a Mullard and a R


----------



## Johnnysound

...and a RCA on the other channel. Magnificent, the Mullard was like a high pitched Stradivari and the RCA a more resonant Guarnieri, or maybe two master violinists, one short and the other tall (LOL)


----------



## d4rkch1ld

johnnysound said:


> Just doing some tube rolling with my recently modified LDMKIII (to accept 6AS7G types) , and my impressions are a bit different about certain tubes (from what I have read in this thread about that same tubes) , but I am using the LDIII mostly as a preamp with SS amps, speakers, and this is of course a different sonic perspective. The SS amps add another stage of amplification, and while my NAD amps are quite neutral and "tube friendly", my speakers (LSA 2 floorstanders) are also very "monitor like" which is no surprise since they derive from from HPs territory. the sound given by the same tubes application sonic perspective


 

 Which NAD amp do u have? I didnt like my MKIV SE as a preamp on my 325BEE. I tryed with stock tubes, maybe i would like it better now.


----------



## Johnnysound

Hi D4, I use two "vintage" NAD 2400 in mono, (around 240 w each) and your 325 should work very well with the MKIV, even in stock form, what speakers you have ?


----------



## d4rkch1ld

Monitor audio BX2. I dont use them for music listening anymore. They had little time before i got HE 560, and now that turned to zero. Not sure what tubes i was using then but im sure i didnt have 6AS7's think i have to hook that up again just to hear what's going on there. Before just sounded pretty bad bass was very loose, mids got some sweetness but trebele was also grainy and wierd.


----------



## Mechans1

Tried a NIB Mullard CV181 ECC32 tonight with the Ember.  It was not a great combination.  The first time I tried it with a 6SN7 adapter it went well and the sound OK not outrageously good but OK..  My second session this evening was not so  good.  The supercharger wouldn't light up and the light under the tube socket would light intermittently.  I stopped it right quick not wanting one of my more precious tubes go to tube hell.  My advice don't try it.


----------



## Johnnysound

mordy said:


> Hi Johnnysound,
> 
> 
> Is something missing from your post?
> ...




Hi Mordy, my post went off garbled, I completed it in the next one. And curious you mention that tubes, speaking of vintages, I think I got the wrong year with a pair 1973 GE 6AS7GA (rebranded HP, that I bought cheaply for $5 each) that I did not like at all, with a quite "uninteresting" sound. Maybe the tubes are bad, but anyway I think a fifties or early sixties example must be much better. What do you think ? 

Also, I tested a pair of NOS Sylvania 6080WC, (1981) which is a beautiful tube with ceramic plates, and it sounds good, but again I feel an earlier plain 6080 version would be much better...


----------



## Mechans1

johnnysound said:


> Hi Mordy, my post went off garbled, I completed it in the next one. And curious you mention that tubes, speaking of vintages, I think I got the wrong year with a pair 1973 GE 6AS7GA (rebranded HP, that I bought cheaply for $5 each) that I did not like at all, with a quite "uninteresting" sound. Maybe the tubes are bad, but anyway I think a fifties or early sixties example must be much better. What do you think ?
> 
> Also, I tested a pair of NOS Sylvania 6080WC, (1981) which is a beautiful tube with ceramic plates, and it sounds good, but again I feel an earlier plain 6080 version would be much better...


 

 I use Sylvania 6080 tubes myself recommend them highly.  The tubes I I have were prolly 70s vintage as I recall  no matter.  They are very layered and all good audiophile praises.  The real issue now is that the sellers are wise to the upsurge in popularity and have starting charging a lot for them.


----------



## mordy

Hi Johnnysound,
  
 Re power tubes I am in agreement with your observations. Re the GE 6AS7GA I have pairs from the late 50's and the early 60's, as well as from the 70's and 80's, and I find the earlier ones sounding better than the late 1970-80s variants. The late 70's GE sound ss like to me (boring sound). [However, i have late 70's RCA 6AS7GA that sound very good - could be that the date is a packing date date and not manufacturing date - Sylvania rebranded].
  
 Same observation with the Sylvania 6080 tubes - the plain 6080 sound better to me than the later WA,WB and WC variants.
  
 Some people think that the 6SAS7GA is just a 6080WC tube. As a matter of fact, I have Sylvania 6AS7GA tubes with the boxes marked 6080WC.
  
 The original 6AS7G tube had a ST (shoulder type) Coke bottle envelope. The 6AS7GA is supposed to be the same tube in a straight glass (G) envelope.
  
 Be it what it may be, but personally I can hear differences between the 6AS7G and 6AS7GA tubes. On the other hand, all the earlier 6AS7GA sound very similar to me, whether they were made by GE or Sylvania and RCA. My guess is that the RCAs are rebranded Sylvanias.
  
 Don't know if I can substantiate this, but my impression is that the ones with copper rods sound better as well.
  
 To me, I get the best sound from GE and Syl/RCA 6AS7GA tubes with the copper rods.
  
_We all have different taste, ears and equipment - nothing wrong if you prefer the RCA tubes over these - a lot of people do. YMMV._
  
 With my MKIII I liked the Sylvania 6080 the best; with the Elise the copper rod 6AS7GA.
  
 But you have to admit - tube rolling is fun!


----------



## Mechans1

Fun but addictive and expensive.  I have been rummaging through my stash of tube and in all honesty, I like all these tubes.  for some reason I think I should lessen the number and only keep a few sets of tubes for anything . An example might be  pairs of 12AX7s Currently the sole use for this tube is an optional tube roll with my Ember..( Previously I owned a home and a number of places to use them which my x-wife stole)  
 I fricken socket that the 1217 garage 'tube wrangler' says he avoids the high mu tubes given their innate capacity  to be noisy, however,
 I am quite cognizant that decent 12AX7s are getting rare and expensive, unless of course you want to use current construction which I also have.  The problem is that in addition to a couple of pairs of Blackburn Mullard , I also have Amperex on top of that I have 2 types of Telefunken and more etc..  In addition I have a healthy collection of 5751s which I almost always rolled into my gea with 12AX7 sockets.r. 
 So how many tubes of the same brand do you need and how many brands should you have?  I would be honored if somebody  responds,I know this is a  blatantly subjective question.  Ask when do you become a certified hoarder? 
 When I got discplaced I was given my tubes, which my family said oh now you can sell them.  What...why ...  I love my tubes and  it has taken 12 years to acquire them. And I needed more I reasoned now that I have headphone tube amps  I had already owned a Singlepower Extreme but rarely used it.  . 
 I guess brevity is not my style of posting I apologize for the length.


----------



## Johnnysound

mordy said:


> Hi Johnnysound,
> 
> Re power tubes I am in agreement with your observations. Re the GE 6AS7GA I have pairs from the late 50's and the early 60's, as well as from the 70's and 80's, and I find the earlier ones sounding better than the late 1970-80s variants. The late 70's GE sound ss like to me (boring sound). [However, i have late 70's RCA 6AS7GA that sound very good - could be that the date is a packing date date and not manufacturing date - Sylvania rebranded].
> 
> ...




Absolutely, tube rolling is fun, like a voyage into unknown sonic territory, you never know what you will find... and even more interesting because here the unwritten law of audio shows itself in all its splendor: better numbers or specs does not mean better sound, period. I have no doubt my Sylvanias 6080WC mil spec tubes of 1981 with ceramic spacers, better plates, reinforced, are superior for radar duties, zero microphonics, will last a lifetime and never fail, they are beautiful, sound good, in fact they have the most powerful bass I ever heard from any tube, bar none, so for bass freaks this is the one...but on the whole there is not much air here, closed in sound, ordinary highs, which is the opposite to the opinions about plain Sylvania 6080 tubes from another vintages...(sweet, warm, lush) and I do trust that, so things are a bit more complicated here. 

I must say that I am using Siemens C3G as reference drivers to test 6AS7Gs and 6080s as powers in my modded LDIII, in preamp duties with dual mono SS amps. The C3Gs are wideband drivers that take no prisoners, not sweet nor warm or anything, transparent and powerful, they simply throw everything into the powers, maybe a bit over the top in the highs sometimes, with killer dynamics, they will show what the powers are made of. Clearly, in my setup some tubes made it and some simply not, not subtle differences. The LSA2 speakers, and I will not make a commercial here, have an, well, extraordinary 3D rendition, but at the same time are monitor type so they will not hide anything. The dual mono setup is different from stereo, and forget about technicalities like channel separation, dual mono is more than that, in terms of absolute imaging and great sound you will never return to stereo, I am sure. Anyway, only a few tubes can do it, and the very undervalued RCA 6AS7G, (late forties or early fifties), the Chathams JAN 6AS7Gs and the Mullards 6080s do the magic. Great tubes the Mullards, a bit over the top, the Chathams nice and clear, but the plain RCAs just dissapear in the air...


----------



## Johnnysound

Just received a Chatham JAN CAHG 6AS7G, but sadly the tube is unusable, it sounds ok for moments, but then distorts a lot ...well it was cheap and I hope the seller will refund my 12 bucks (lol). Anyway, I could finally compare this one side to side to the GE 6AS7G of the same 54' vintage, and they have exactly the same plates and micas, with the same pre drilled holes and clips, so overall are quite similar, but the construction of the Chatham is a bit different, maybe because of the military spec, reinforced, longer supports for the micas and bigger copper rods, also, a sturdier base. I think the GEs should be compared to a standard Chatham or Tung-Sol. Hope can get some soon, but the prices are a bit high, you know...
So far, the GEs were most probably made by Chatham (or Tung-Sol), in the same fashion as the RCAs that were, er, massively rebranded as Hytrons, Raytheons, or Sylvanias. But the Chathams were not that massive, I found only GEs and an RTC branded tube with the same unique construction. In any case, Chathams or not, the GEs sound really good, and are still reasonably priced...


----------



## gibosi

johnnysound said:


> Just received a Chatham JAN CAHG 6AS7G, but sadly the tube is unusable, it sounds ok for moments, but then distorts a lot ...well it was cheap and I hope the seller will refund my 12 bucks (lol). Anyway, I could finally compare this one side to side to the GE 6AS7G of the same 54' vintage, and they have exactly the same plates and micas, with the same pre drilled holes and clips, so overall are quite similar, but the construction of the Chatham is a bit different, maybe because of the military spec, reinforced, longer supports for the micas and bigger copper rods, also, a sturdier base. I think the GEs should be compared to a standard Chatham or Tung-Sol. Hope can get some soon, but the prices are a bit high, you know...
> So far, the GEs were most probably made by Chatham (or Tung-Sol), in the same fashion as the RCAs that were, er, massively rebranded as Hytrons, Raytheons, or Sylvanias. But the Chathams were not that massive, I found only GEs and an RTC branded tube with the same unique construction. In any case, Chathams or not, the GEs sound really good, and are still reasonably priced...


 
  
 To the best of my knowledge, GE did not manufacture the coke bottle 6AS7G. And therefore, GE 6AS7G could be relabeled Chatham/Tung-Sol or RCA. In fact, I have a nice pair of RCA 6AS7G that are relabeled as GE. So when purchasing GE 6AS7G, it is always necessary to check the construction to determine who actually manufactured them.


----------



## GrindingThud

RCA made these:



gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, GE did not manufacture the coke bottle 6AS7G. And therefore, GE 6AS7G could be relabeled Chatham/Tung-Sol or RCA. In fact, I have a nice pair of RCA 6AS7G that are relabeled as GE. So when purchasing GE 6AS7G, it is always necessary to check the construction to determine who actually manufactured them.


----------



## Johnnysound

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, GE did not manufacture the coke bottle 6AS7G. And therefore, GE 6AS7G could be relabeled Chatham/Tung-Sol or RCA. In fact, I have a nice pair of RCA 6AS7G that are relabeled as GE. So when purchasing GE 6AS7G, it is always necessary to check the construction to determine who actually manufactured them.




Very interesting, G. What I can say for sure is that my 3 samples of coke bottle GE 6AS7Gs (all 1954) are not RCA. Very different, apart from the lack of a bottom round shield (that all RCA bottles have) the RCAs have a single, big rectangular bottom getter with a flat "blade" while the GEs have two smaller ones on each side, no blades and identical to the Chatham. Of course, my "clear top" tubes, I have no top getters to talk about. But most relevant is the fact you mention that GE did not manufacture this type, so we must conclude that all US coke bottles, of any brand, are either made by RCA or Chatham-Tung Sol. Well, it looks like that most are made by RCA, and only a few by Tung-Sol. As far as I know, of the "big brands" only GE rebranded coke bottle Chatham tubes, and virtually all the others went with the RCAs....


----------



## thecrow

These popped up on eBay 
today. Very briefly. Crazy prices? Or have I missed something?

http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/Tube-5998-Chatham-tested-70-70-each-balanced-lot-of-2-/161929644955?nav=SEARCH


----------



## SonicTrance

thecrow said:


> These popped up on eBay
> today. Very briefly. Crazy prices? Or have I missed something?
> 
> http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/Tube-5998-Chatham-tested-70-70-each-balanced-lot-of-2-/161929644955?nav=SEARCH


 
 That's crazy cheap indeed. They usually go for about $100 each. He doesn't say which tester, but if it's a TV7, those test results are very good!


----------



## Johnnysound

sonictrance said:


> That's crazy cheap indeed. They usually go for about $100 each. He doesn't say which tester, but if it's a TV7, those test results are very good!




Looks like an absolute bargain...but by my own experience, a tube can test good but sound bad, I am no expert on this, only can say that I received a NOS, tested Mullard 6080 that distorted a lot when working in a real amp with real music.. The seller (Langrex) sent another one inmediately, this one 100% ok. So, this can happen, and now I wonder if tester results are meaningful in terms of the real performance of a tube...


----------



## SonicTrance

johnnysound said:


> sonictrance said:
> 
> 
> > That's crazy cheap indeed. They usually go for about $100 each. He doesn't say which tester, but if it's a TV7, those test results are very good!
> ...


 
 If the tube distorts it's obviously something wrong with it. Though, you don't measure sound quality with a tester, it's a good way to see how much life is left in the tube. IME, a tube that tests good also sounds good, but I'm sure it varies from tester to tester.


----------



## mordy

Hi -MisterX-,
  
 I bought two NOS 6080 Mullard tubes from Langrex that I am very happy with. I was told that the tubes were matched. Each tube has a sticker that reads:
  
 69/69                          and                  65/68
 61/63                                                  67/68
  
 I emailed Langrex and asked what the numbers mean. Was told that 50 means good, and that a matched tube is considered as such if it measures within 10% of the other.
  
 In order to understand the numbers better I asked what a new tube would measure but did not get an answer.
  
 Given these numbers, do you have any idea what a new tube would measure?


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> Hi -MisterX-,
> 
> I bought two NOS 6080 Mullard tubes from Langrex that I am very happy with. I was told that the tubes were matched. Each tube has a sticker that reads:
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry Mordy, I don't know. It depends on the tester. But usually the min/reject point is 65% of new. So if that's the case with his tester, 77 would be new. But I don't understand why there's so many numbers. As the 6080 have two triodes, there should only be two results per tube, not four


----------



## mordy

Agree - why did Langrex put double sets of numbers on the tubes?
  
 Maybe they will respond if I ask again.....


----------



## Johnnysound

sonictrance said:


> If the tube distorts it's obviously something wrong with it. Though, you don't measure sound quality with a tester, it's a good way to see how much life is left in the tube. IME, a tube that tests good also sounds good, but I'm sure it varies from tester to tester.




This is precisely my point: in my example, the tube was NOS and tested good, I have no doubt it passed all the tests....but it distorted badly reproducing music. Yes, something wrong with it...something that was not detected by the tests. If the tests can not detect this, and only indicates the life span of the tube, then they are useless in terms of sound quality. I do not care if the tube test new and will last a lot..if it distorts, is of no use in audio. So, maybe some tests or some testers will tell us more meaningful information...I think


----------



## thecrow

I saw these on eBay for those interested 

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-NIB-GEC-6AS7G-CV2523-A1834-Matched-pair-Tested-/172047766858?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202351%2526meid%253Db14136ac3a4a44fd8a2e9f960401a2df%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D2%2526rkt%253D2%2526sd%253D191598520530&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460

But what does "getter flashing is great" mean

And can anyone explain how people can describe tubes as unused even though their is the silver deposits (or whatever they are called). Seriously is there something I'm missing? 
Unused? I understand that can measure nos but unused?????


----------



## adeadcrab

getter flashing is the silver made after the vacuum is created? (not sure on what its purpose is). When the getter is all silver with no small holes it is indicative of being less used. If the getter is not silver and has turned all white or is turning white, then the vacuum's integrity has been compromised and the tube will not work, or will work for not much longer.


----------



## thecrow

adeadcrab said:


> getter flashing is the silver made after the vacuum is created? (not sure on what its purpose is). When the getter is all silver with no small holes it is indicative of being less used. If the getter is not silver and has turned all white or is turning white, then the vacuum's integrity has been compromised and the tube will not work, or will work for not much longer.


I thought the silver deposits occur through the use of the tube? Am I wrong in that? (Tubes are relatively new to me)


----------



## adeadcrab

silver = new.

 Example, my amplifier arrived with 2 stock power tubes. One of these had a white getter and did not work. When the vacuum has been broken and air enters the tube, the getter turns white.


----------



## thecrow

adeadcrab said:


> silver = new.
> 
> 
> Example, my amplifier arrived with 2 stock power tubes. One of these had a white getter and did not work. When the vacuum has been broken and air enters the tube, the getter turns white.


Cool. Nice to know. Will the silver deposits change at all through use then - something I should consider when looking at tubes?


----------



## JohnBal

thecrow said:


> I thought the silver deposits occur through the use of the tube? Am I wrong in that? (Tubes are relatively new to me)


 
 The silver deposit is a result of the manufacturing process. See http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm
  
 "When the tube is pumped out and sealed, the last step in processing is to "fire" the getter, producing a "getter flash" inside the tube envelope. That is the silvery patch you see on the inside of a glass tube. It is a guarantee that the tube has good vacuum. If the seal on the tube fails, the getter flash will turn white (because it turns into barium oxide).
  
 The silver/black looking spots are normal for these types of tubes.


----------



## mcandmar

thecrow said:


> I thought the silver deposits occur through the use of the tube? Am I wrong in that? (Tubes are relatively new to me)


 
  
 Some tubes with very high hours on them can leave stains on the glass from the heater filament.  It will also have left a coating on the plates so the emission of the tube will be very low at that stage.  i.e. its worn out.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Agree - why did Langrex put double sets of numbers on the tubes?
> 
> Maybe they will respond if I ask again.....


 
  
 Did you?
  
 Two values for each triode, could be something along these lines: http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers/8325#post_12218134


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 As always, you are of great help, and I think that you solved the mystery! In addition, I did get an answer this morning.
  
 The question was: Why does each tube have four values posted, and what do they mean?
  
 One tube says 68/69   The other tube says 65/66
                        61/63                                   67/68
  
 Here is the answer from Langrex:
_"Ok I have spoken with my test engineers. There are 2 anodes to each tube.
 For your test results. the numbers mean MA (M.Amps) and anything from 45-72 is classed as a new tube, anything below or above is pulling too much gain."_​  
 According to the link you sent me, it means that for one triode the plate current is 68mA and the transconductance is 69mA; for the other triode the plate current is 61mA and the transconductance is 63mA.
  
 It was also explained to me that the definition of a matched pair is that there is less than 10% difference in the measurements between two tubes. Looking at the numbers for the two tubes, the values that are the most apart are exactly 10% off.
  
 I think that I understand the measurements now - comments?


----------



## Thenewguy007

thecrow said:


> I saw these on eBay for those interested


 
  
 Speaking of which, don't you have the G.E.C. on your WA2?
 How would you rate them? Were they worth it to you?
  
 I have the Western Electric 421A's & the only reviews & comparisons I read were that Western Electric & the GEC's were on the same level.


----------



## thecrow

thenewguy007 said:


> Speaking of which, don't you have the G.E.C. on your WA2?
> How would you rate them? Were they worth it to you?
> 
> I have the Western Electric 421A's & the only reviews & comparisons I read were that Western Electric & the GEC's were on the same level.


Apart from the stock power tubes I have only heard the Gec tubes that I have and some tung sol 5998s which I listened to briefly. 

As others have described the tung sol are punchy with a good bit of weight/bass/ kick/timbre (kind of) to them so I enjoyed them when I briefly listened to them.....But when I then put the Gec tubes back in there was definitely an improvement in layering and details and extension. Still rich and pretty much neutral in nature but a real classy tube. 

I've just ordered some we421a tubes that should be here any day. I'll post again when I spend a little time with them. 

In a nutshell (I'm currently thinking) if I was to only have one pair I would have the Gec tubes for that "audiophile" sound, whatever that is, but the we421a/5998s are for that meatier sound when that's sought

And I love how the hd800's lets this all come through


What driver tubes do u use with the 421a's and how do u find them?


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> Hi Oskari,
> 
> As always, you are of great help, and I think that you solved the mystery! In addition, I did get an answer this morning.
> 
> ...




I still don't understand the numbers. A 6080 has a plate current of 125mA and a GM of 7000 umhos (that's 7mA/V)


----------



## Mechans1

I beg to differ with your  engineer friend I am not an EE so I could be completely wrong.
  The numbers all look like transconductance,  the current draw is usually milli amperes and the numbers for 6SN7s is 8.0 to about 12  for a  typical 6SN7,  I think  the numbers listed would fry your filaments. That's a big draw current.
 The testing on a 6SN7 usually measure the gm or transcondtuctance  called micromohs, for each of the triodes. The scales for gm differ from one tester to another.  That explains the fraction like numbers,  but that would result in only 4 readings for the whole shebang,not 8.  You said this was for a pair correct?  This looks like a quad.


----------



## mordy

Hi MisterX and Mechans1,
  
 I can certainly understand your skepticism of what these measurements mean and you have very valid questions.
  
 I am only quoting the answers I got from Dan at Langrex where I bought my pair of Mullard 6080 tubes. It seems to me that somebody measured the tubes regarding two sets of measurements and wrote these measurements down on little stickers on the glass envelope of the tubes.
  
 It appears to me that each dual triode was measured for two different tests, hence the 4 readings on each tube. Oskari sent me a link to these measurements of 10 different 6N23P tubes which are dual triodes.:
  

 * *
*№*
 *Plate*
*current*
 * *
*Transconductance*
 *Plate*
*current*
 * *
*Transconductance*
 *1.*
 *13,3mA*​  *8,6mA/v*​  *13,6mA*​  *8mA/v*​  *2.*
 *13,2mA*​  *8,6mA/v*​  *12mA*​  *8mA/v*​  *3.*
 *13mA*​  *9,6mA/v*​  *11,4mA*​  *7,6mA/v*​  *4.*
 *14,4mA*​  *9.8mA/v*​  *16,8mA*​  *12mA/v*​  *5.*
 *13,6mA*​  *7,8mA/v*​  *14mA*​  *9mA/v*​  *6.*
 *14mA*​  *10,6mA/v*​  *12mA*​  *9mA/v*​  *7.*
 *13,2mA*​  *8,6mA/v*​  *16mA*​  *9,6mA/v*​  *8.*
 *18mA*​  *8,2mA/v*​  *13,2mA*​  *8,4mA/v*​  *9.*
 *11,6mA*​  *8,6mA/v*​  *12mA*​  *9mA/v*​  *10.*
 *12,4mA*​  *8,6mA/v*​  *14,4mA*​  *10mA/v*​ 
 As you can see, each triode has two measurements. Don't know if they correspond to the values listed for my 6080 tubes.
  
 The 6N23P is said to be the same tube as a 6DJ8. For the 6DJ8 the plate current is 15mA, and the transconductance is 12.5mA which seems to be in the range of the above tubes.
  
 Bottom line: I still don't understand the measurements of the Mullard tubes.....


----------



## thecrow

thenewguy007 said:


> Speaking of which, don't you have the G.E.C. on your WA2?
> How would you rate them? Were they worth it to you?
> 
> I have the Western Electric 421A's & the only reviews & comparisons I read were that Western Electric & the GEC's were on the same level.


 
  


thecrow said:


> Apart from the stock power tubes I have only heard the Gec tubes that I have and some tung sol 5998s which I listened to briefly.
> 
> As others have described the tung sol are punchy with a good bit of weight/bass/ kick/timbre (kind of) to them so I enjoyed them when I briefly listened to them.....But when I then put the Gec tubes back in there was definitely an improvement in layering and details and extension. Still rich and pretty much neutral in nature but a real classy tube.
> 
> ...


 

 okay with hd800s and amperex 6922 pq's in place, tonight's listening shows:
  
 the 421a tubes are a little more punchy and on the slighter warmer side but still lively but with that added touch of warmth and kick. it does have a higher gain i believe.
 it does tame some highs that sometimes can stick out i'm finding - i have been pleasantly surprised on some albums of this that i thought the gec would have been hands down better (eg thomas dolby albums - astronauts and heretics on right now and it's great)
  
 the gec 6as7g have a more neutral sound, more neutral (on that spectrum) and still lively. extended highs and definitely slightly better layered. overall a little more natural sounding too
  
  
 if you are happy with the 421a tubes no need for the gec tubes. if you can splurge and you want a little more brightness and clarity then go for the gec tubes
  
 for me i prefer the gec's but the 421a's will get a run too at times.
  
  
  
 i would also say for my set up and my prefs the gecs will be more versatile - ie enjoyed with a broader range of music
  
 i have also read from other members here that the gec are the preferred choice for hd800, whilst the TS5998/we 421a are better for the t1
  
  
 having heard what i've heard tonight, would i spend a bucket load of money on getting both of these premium tubes? - probably not but, hey, it was a Christmas treat for me
 will i now use both? - Yes, happily.
  
  
 that's my initial two bob's worth


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Bottom line: I still don't understand the measurements of the Mullard tubes.....


 
  
 Let's look at the 68/69. Presumably, that gives a plate current of 68 mA. This is specific to the (unknown) test conditions of the (unknown) tester. Next question: 69? They could have taken another reading of the same: plate current of 69 mA. Or this might be a transconductance reading, either unitless or in units of 0.1 mA/V, i.e., 6.9 mA/V. Or it might be something else.
  
 Bottom line: I don't know either.


----------



## mcandmar

Just to chuck a spanner in the works, those figures might not be a ma figure at all, do we know what they used to test the tubes?
  
 Ex military TV series tube testers, and Hickok testers use there own arbitrary scale, which can be converted into micromhos.  For example with my TV-7 tester a 6AS7 tube has a minimum pass reading of 36, but in my experience healthy tubes test in the 60-80 range.  68/69 would be a perfectly healthy, and well matched tube.


----------



## Oskari

Still 8 test values for 2 tubes, 4 triodes.
  
 They did mention mA.


----------



## Thenewguy007

thecrow said:


> okay with hd800s and amperex 6922 pq's in place, tonight's listening shows:
> 
> the 421a tubes are a little more punchy and on the slighter warmer side but still lively but with that added touch of warmth and kick. it does have a higher gain i believe.
> it does tame some highs that sometimes can stick out i'm finding - i have been pleasantly surprised on some albums of this that i thought the gec would have been hands down better (eg thomas dolby albums - astronauts and heretics on right now and it's great)
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for that. That's the first real comparison I read online between them.
 fyi I use the '74 reflector 6N23P driver tubes.
  
 I had some crap stock 6922 driver tubes before them & with them, the Western Electrics did add more bass/a fullness to the sound over he stock RCA 6080. Maybe extended the highs a bit & added some clarity over the stock power tubes. The soundstage felt more congested though & I noticed some sibilance. Overall, I wasn't impressed, especially considering the price of the tubes.
  
 Then when I received the '74 reflectors, they completely transformed the Western Electrics!
 Soundstage opened up, the sibilance was gone. New added layers of dynamics. Plus it added impact/slam to the bass. Before them, bass felt very soft & lacked authority. Now it hits hard. Total upgrade in that aspect.
  
 Gain was drastically improved as well. Before the reflectors I had to turn the volume knob to 2 or 3 O'clock to get enjoyable listening levels. After the reflectors, I get the same loudness at 9 O'clock on the volume knob.
  
 The reflectors improved the Western Electrics drastically more than they did to the stock RCA 6080. The RCA power tubes did get an improvement, but just a small bit.


----------



## thecrow

S





thenewguy007 said:


> Thanks for that. That's the first real comparison I read online between them.
> fyi I use the '74 reflector 6N23P driver tubes.
> 
> I had some crap stock 6922 driver tubes before them & with them, the Western Electrics did add more bass/a fullness to the sound over he stock RCA 6080. Maybe extended the highs a bit & added some clarity over the stock power tubes. The soundstage felt more congested though & I noticed some sibilance. Overall, I wasn't impressed, especially considering the price of the tubes.
> ...


ounds like the 6922 tubes were stuffed. 

On the Gec tubes my volume goes to about 11 o clock. On the 421a tubes it was about 10 ish

Coming from a soloist amp when I heard the wa2 with the stock tubes I thought "wow, this is smooth and detailed !" And then I put the Gec tubes in was blown away from my previous offerings

I've read about the reflektors here. 

Ive now spent enough $ on tubes. I needed to get the 5998 or these 421as to satisfy that curiously and that's now done. 

I also picked up a pair is Siemens ccas (early-mid 70s) off eBay pretty cheaply (I believe) and they've come up pretty interesting too and more lively than the Amperex PQs. Last night as a quick first impression the PQs sounded better matched with the WE's rather than the ccas but that was first impressions so I'll try them again. 

The ccas have grown with me over time and aren't as bright as I first found them - that could be me and the tubes at work

I'll also try them with sone cheap bugle boys I've picked up to say if there is a synergy there. They haven't impressed me as much with my gecs. 

My only remaining question is whether I should grab some (uk)!mullard tubes for fun?

I wish there were woo meets here in Sydney just for tube rolling purposes/ideas.


If you ever get a chance to hear the gecs, particularly with the reflektors, let me know what your impressions are. They are something really special with the hd800's. They are effectively on the same job/page as the tube


----------



## thecrow

I'm looking at some mulled 6080 tubes. 

I've noticed some of these tubes also have cv2984 on them and some don't. Are there any differences?

Some also have different getters. Some twin getters others not. 

Eg:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6080-MULLARD-NOS-BOXED-VALVE-TUBE-/311478749131?hash=item48859487cb:g:lK4AAOSwwbdWOe-m

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6080-CV2984-MULLARD-NOS-BOXED-VALVE-TUBE-/311154206725?hash=item48723c6805:g:7rkAAOSwF1dUUiu7

Anyone know if there is much difference in what these offer?

Thanks in advance


----------



## abvolt

thecrow said:


> I'm looking at some mulled 6080 tubes.
> 
> I've noticed some of these tubes also have cv2984 on them and some don't. Are there any differences?
> 
> ...


 
  
 No there the same tube I have both  the CV is a European  type military tube code that's all, the mullards are really fine sounding tubes..Enjoy


----------



## hpamdr

thecrow said:


> I'm looking at some mulled 6080 tubes.
> 
> I've noticed some of these tubes also have cv2984 on them and some don't. Are there any differences?
> 
> ...


 

 CV2984 are labeled for military use, regular 6080 are for consumer market. As said by gibosi the most important are production date and factory. Basically you have two version AJ0  and AJ1 where you can have a variant with one or two getter.  If you want a pair it is better to have same factory code and date and you can have them matched !
 // I personally like the first version but some others prefer later one all should be made at Mitcham ( R code )


----------



## mcandmar

Interesting tidbit there about the AJ0 and AJ1, only ever seen the 1's myself.
  
 Personally i would always give preference to CV stamped tubes as i believe they would have undergone more stringent testing. Datasheet for the CV2984 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/cv2984.pdf


----------



## gibosi

mcandmar said:


> Interesting tidbit there about the AJ0 and AJ1, only ever seen the 1's myself.
> 
> Personally i would always give preference to CV stamped tubes as i believe they would have undergone more stringent testing. Datasheet for the CV2984 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/cv2984.pdf


 
  
 The construction of the AJ0 is quite different than the AJ1, so it is very easy to tell the difference. Below, the AJ0 was manufactured in 1957 and the AJ1 next to it was manufactured in 1966. The AJ1 sports a single getter and I believe that double getters appeared sometime later. While mcandmar may well be right about CV labeled tubes, personally, I always go for the oldest production.


----------



## thecrow

abvolt said:


> No there the same tube I have both  the CV is a European  type military tube code that's all, the mullards are really fine sounding tubes..Enjoy







hpamdr said:


> CV2984 are labeled for military use, regular 6080 are for consumer market. As said by gibosi the most important are production date and factory. Basically you have two version AJ0  and AJ1 where you can have a variant with one or two getter.  If you want a pair it is better to have same factory code and date and you can have them matched !
> // I personally like the first version but some others prefer later one all should be made at Mitcham ( R code )







mcandmar said:


> Interesting tidbit there about the AJ0 and AJ1, only ever seen the 1's myself.
> 
> Personally i would always give preference to CV stamped tubes as i believe they would have undergone more stringent testing. Datasheet for the CV2984 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/cv2984.pdf







gibosi said:


> The construction of the AJ0 is quite different than the AJ1, so it is very easy to tell the difference. Below, the AJ0 was manufactured in 1957 and the AJ1 next to it was manufactured in 1966. The AJ1 sports a single getter and I believe that double getters appeared sometime later. While mcandmar may well be right about CV labeled tubes, personally, I always go for the oldest production.


This info is great. Thanks. I couldn't find any of this info on the Internet. 

How do you think the 1975 tubes would compare to previous decades? I've emailed the seller (valvetubes I believe) to get more info on the markings on these. There's not many photos here


----------



## JamieMcC

The old AJO turns up reasonably regularly on line and often for peanuts they seldom have and markings or if they do its often hard to make out as the old style paint can be very chalky and fragile and often comes off when handling. Because of this they often just get listed as vintage british 6080 tube or something along those lines. I would say its also the nicer sounding tube of the two and am pretty sure I have a double top getter version somewhere. I also have a bunch of the AJ1 some of which have the Mullard quick flasher start up when cold feature and some don't. The Mullard 6080 was apparently  made in a number of location both in the UK and Europe so there could be quiet a wide range of slightly differing examples about.


----------



## thecrow

I also just found that there has been discussion for these specific tubes/buyer before in this thread particularly around page 171 that was also useful


----------



## Oskari

jamiemcc said:


> The Mullard 6080 was apparently  made in a number of location both in the UK and Europe so there could be quiet a wide range of slightly differing examples about.




Please elaborate. I only know of Mitcham.


----------



## JamieMcC

oskari said:


> Please elaborate. I only know of Mitcham.


 
  
 Mullard factory codes below but the same tubes can sometimes be found branded Phlips, Amperex & CEI
  
 D Mullards Mitcham, DA Mullard Blackburn, DB Mullard Salford, DC Mullard Whytleafe, DE Mullard Fleetwood, DF Mullard Waddon, DH Phillips France


----------



## thecrow

Based on all the info here and post 2559 in this thread that suggests (Q)DD is for later mitcham codes I've gone for these that others here have been happy with


----------



## thecrow

thenewguy007 said:


> Thanks for that. That's the first real comparison I read online between them.
> fyi I use the '74 reflector 6N23P driver tubes.
> 
> I had some crap stock 6922 driver tubes before them & with them, the Western Electrics did add more bass/a fullness to the sound over he stock RCA 6080. Maybe extended the highs a bit & added some clarity over the stock power tubes. The soundstage felt more congested though & I noticed some sibilance. Overall, I wasn't impressed, especially considering the price of the tubes.
> ...


Unfortunately one of the 3 we 421a tubes was microphonic so all 3 are being returned and happily accepted by the seller. 

I've now bought a cheaper pair of tung sol 5998s from the seller instead. 

For my gear and me (and others) preferring detail and clarity and neutralness in my sound I would not pay a high premium for 5998/421a tubes but would be happy to pay a premium if need be to grab some gecs. 

Based on eBay pricing/availability I would be happy to pay (and recommend), for pairs, about $200usd or so on 5998s, accept a small premium for the 421a based on what some say about those in comparison but would easily pay twice the price of the 5998s to get the Gec tubes (pair). 

They really are quite special if that's what you're after.


----------



## Oskari

jamiemcc said:


> Mullard factory codes below but the same tubes can sometimes be found branded Phlips, Amperex & CEI




Branded and rebranded yes, but I have yet to see a non-Mitcham Mullard/Philips-made 6080/ECC230.


----------



## Dogmatrix

As far as I know the only factories in the UK that produced 6080 tubes were Mitcham (Mullard) and Hammersmith (GEC)


----------



## JamieMcC

oskari said:


> Branded and rebranded yes, but I have yet to see a non-Mitcham Mullard/Philips-made 6080/ECC230.


 

 Pretty sure I have seen a few Blackburn made ones and might even have a couple tucked away I will have a look tomorrow.


----------



## Oskari

dogmatrix said:


> As far as I know the only factories in the UK that produced 6080 tubes were Mitcham (Mullard) and Hammersmith (GEC)




… and Mitcham the only factory of the Philips group [in Europe] that made them.


----------



## Oskari

jamiemcc said:


> Pretty sure I have seen a few Blackburn made ones and might even have a couple tucked away I will have a look tomorrow.




Please do. Very interesting.


----------



## JamieMcC

oskari said:


> … and Mitcham the only factory of the Philips group [in Europe] that made them.


 

 Did they make Brimars?


----------



## adeadcrab

dogmatrix said:


> As far as I know the only factories in the UK that produced 6080 tubes were Mitcham (Mullard) and Hammersmith (GEC)


 
 Who made Bendix 6080?


----------



## Dogmatrix

All the Brimar 6080 I have seen look like Sylvania or GE rebrands


----------



## Dogmatrix

adeadcrab said:


> Who made Bendix 6080?


 
 Bendix USA I think


----------



## abvolt

here's a site with a little history on tube makers and when-where they started..
 http://www.transparentsound.com/transistors/vintage-transistors/brand-history/brand-history.htm


----------



## JamieMcC

dogmatrix said:


> All the Brimar 6080 I have seen look like Sylvania or GE rebrands


 
  
 From what I understand tube designs were patented and often  made under licence by other manufacturers.
  
  


abvolt said:


> here's a site with a little history on tube makers and when-where they started..
> http://www.transparentsound.com/transistors/vintage-transistors/brand-history/brand-history.htm


 
 Cheers some interesting info in your link.


----------



## Johnnysound

Some days ago, I received a pair of Chatham/Tung Sol 6080s from 1960-61, not NOS but  tested as new  according to the seller.
  

  
 Very nice tubes, solidly made with big black plates and thick copper rods identical to the Chatham 6AS7G. Maybe a trademark of  Chatham/Tung-Sol tubes of that era, but I think there are also Tung-Sols  with steel rods,  both in the ST or straight bottle  formats.
  
  

  
  
  
 And,  to complicate things, we have rebranded Chathams (like the ST GEs 6AS7Gs) with thinner copper or steel rods  and some small differences from the "original" Chatham..  Now I am almost convinced  that the GE  was basically a "standard" or commercial version of the  Chatham, made to order,  probably to reduce costs, and this is most interesting, because it is a unique tube, and it sounds really good too.
  
 Anyway, in my setup with the LDIII used as a preamp driving   solid state amps, I do prefer tubes on the "warmer" side to give more life and body to the cool transistors, Definitely, the ST types work great,  and of the few 6080s I have heard, these Tung-Sols are on the  top,  along with the Mullards but sounding quite different.   Not precisely warm, just a touch of it, more on the neutral side, but with great dynamics, pace, definition, and superb detail.both in the highs and on the lower frequencies.    Great addition to any collection,  for only 17 each...


----------



## mordy

Hi Johnnysound,
  
 Enjoy your new tubes and all the tube rolling possibilities!
  
 The 6080 is supposed to be the same as the 6AS7 in a different envelope. However, IMHO they run hotter, and sound different.
  
 As a rule the ST type ( Shoulder Type {Coke bottle} ) style tubes sound better than their tubular (straight) glass style counterparts.
  
 The Chatham 6AS7G sounds better than the Chatham 6080, the 6N7G sounds better than the 6N7GT, the GEC 1834A (6AS7) sounds better than the GEC 6080.


----------



## Mechans1

All I know is that I get very consistent and very good sound from the tube Johnysound has pictured for his post.  I have spent a lot of money chasing down the ST style bottles.  I have gone as far as buying a few WE 421As.   In almost every instance the tubes become  noisy or just weak.  This holds true for most of the other brand  STs with dominoe plates.  I have had some but problems with the regular 6AS7Gs but only a few.  I have left those Chatam 6080s in my amp for an extended period of time given my habit of tube rolling, even when the sound is good.
 I will look over my STs and give them another try.  I  almost bought an unusual  variant of dominoe plated tubes but they were just too much. I almost never have a problem witth the 6080simple bottle tubes. I tell myself,  I want to find only  one, at most 2 more, the GEC 6080 and Bendix.


----------



## whirlwind

I just received these today....going to give them a listen tonight to make sure they are good.
  

  
 One of them has a round getter down toward the bottom of the tube, facing the right side....I have four 5998 tubes, this is the only one with this type of getter.


----------



## thecrow

I just picked up a pair of ts5998s. During my first proper listen (about an hour or so) last night I could hear a few "pings" coming through one side of my headphones. Not continually but consistently (if that makes sense) mostly for the first 20-30 mins. 

When lightly tapping on the tube there would be a slight "springy" sound coming through. Is this a chance/likely to go away as I run the tube over the next few nights? Or what might come of this?

There's no particular issue with humming just this "pinging" and the tubes not what I would call microphonic. 

Thanks


----------



## whirlwind

thecrow said:


> I just picked up a pair of ts5998s. During my first proper listen (about an hour or so) last night I could hear a few "pings" coming through one side of my headphones. Not continually but consistently (if that makes sense) mostly for the first 20-30 mins.
> 
> When lightly tapping on the tube there would be a slight "springy" sound coming through. Is this a chance/likely to go away as I run the tube over the next few nights? Or what might come of this?
> 
> ...


 
 I usually let my 5998 warm up about 20-30 minutes before listening...The pinging seems to be normal for these tubes until they warm up.....they could get better though.


----------



## adeadcrab

Pinging can be normal.. Bendix tubes all do this, as they are made from stronger glass which expands slightly while warming up. This is the 'ping' sound, or 'tick'.


----------



## thecrow

whirlwind said:


> I usually let my 5998 warm up about 20-30 minutes before listening...The pinging seems to be normal for these tubes until they warm up.....they could get better though.


If it's within the range of what these do then that's good to hear. I'll see if anything changes over the next few hours of listening. 

 The other tube is great and when you tap it you just hear a (dead noise) tap on glass with no springing sound. That's what I'm ideally after when buying tubes. 





adeadcrab said:


> Pinging can be normal.. Bendix tubes all do this, as they are made from stronger glass which expands slightly while warming up. This is the 'ping' sound, or 'tick'.



Thanks for that too as I ordered a pair of be did 6080 tubes too this week to see what they are about.


----------



## Mechans1

That seems like a reasonable period of time for the various element to reach a consistent playing temperature, meaning the pings are merely the metal getting larger as it heats up and making this sound as it does so..
 You are right in my opinion that microphonics are a different issue.. Microphonia is the tubes  ability/sensitivity permiting the tube to transmit sound from various vibrating elements feeding back into the tube creating an unwanted sound, in the most extreme cases.  Otherwise the tube needs to be hit banged on play drums on to make a feedback sound.  Some think this capacity which is never present unles the tube is being hit is a bad thing and will still insist the tube is microphonic.   Obviously I and people like Jim McShane don't agree and recommend that you buy these defective tubes because otherwise they sound great. DO NOT BUY THE TUBES THAT MAKE THE FEEDBACK LOOP AT REST.  Sorry about the caps but it is very important, only the ones that need to be hit to make the feedback noise are useful..  I think in some ways these not too sensitive tubes are very good imaging tubes that can throw a good stage.  Just a little not much you get the idea.


----------



## thecrow

mechans1 said:


> That seems like a reasonable period of time for the various element to reach a consistent playing temperature, meaning the pings are merely the metal getting larger as it heats up and making this sound as it does so..
> You are right in my opinion that microphonics are a different issue.. Microphonia is the tubes  ability/sensitivity permiting the tube to transmit sound from various vibrating elements feeding back into the tube creating an unwanted sound, in the most extreme cases.  Otherwise the tube needs to be hit banged on play drums on to make a feedback sound.  Some think this capacity which is never present unles the tube is being hit is a bad thing and will still insist the tube is microphonic.   Obviously I and people like Jim McShane don't agree and recommend that you buy these defective tubes because otherwise they sound great. DO NOT BUY THE TUBES THAT MAKE THE FEEDBACK LOOP AT REST.  Sorry about the caps but it is very important, only the ones that need to be hit to make the feedback noise are useful..  I think in some ways these not too sensitive tubes are very good imaging tubes that can throw a good stage.  Just a little not much you get the idea.


i appreciate this info. 

Excuse my ignorance - what do you mean re the feedback loop at rest? Does that come out in pinging or humming screeching?

I should also say that if I flick with my finger the amp (wa2)somewhere near the tube then the vibrations cause a slight micrphonic sound. But only then. I'm assuming that's not a major drama and its acceptable. I recently had a tube that was very microphonic. I would move the mouse on the computer desk (2 feet away from the amp) and that would cause the microphonic sound.

And I'm thinking if tubes have not been used for a while these sounds (pings) are not unusual


----------



## Johnnysound

mordy said:


> Hi Johnnysound,
> 
> Enjoy your new tubes and all the tube rolling possibilities!
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Mordy, 
  
 Thanks ¡  I do agree completely with your comments. As for the Chathams/Tung Sols,  the internals of the 6080 are the same as the ST type, but they DO sound different indeed, I can understand  they run hotter in the smaller envelope, but have no idea why the differences in sound. Any clues ?   And absolutely, IMHO the rule is true, all my 3 types of ST (RCA, GE, Chatham) sound better than any of my 6080s (GE, TS, Sylvania WC, Mullard).   In short, by "better" I mean more air, more body,more space,  a relaxed and unstrained sound and great 3D qualities. I feel all STs need at least one hour (maybe two) of music playing to reach top performance.
  
 Very inneficient for sure, but you have to be patient with those old tubes.  The 6080s heat up much faster and the top ones I have (Mullard, TS) do sound really good, (I simply prefer the STs) , more neutral and "solid state" like, have greater resolution than the STs  in terms of detail, and no doubt have more "extension" in  both highs and lows, (The Mullards have superb extension BTW)  But, the sound is a bit more "closed in", more analytic, and lacks air around instruments and development of ambient clues compared to the STs.  In my setup, quite good for rock,pop, chill, electronica or similar. But for vocals,all jazz, classical or acoustic ensembles there is no contest.  
  
 Sometimes,*less *extension may be desirable, just to avoid going "over the top" and my *"violin test"*is really tough for many tubes.  Lets share my small Tidal baroque playlist in FLAC (favorites marked)
  
 http://listen.tidal.com/playlist/d6b0be76-e756-4b56-8618-47e794821706
  
 This is a good example, all STs passed nicely, and of the 6080s only the Mullards made it,.. barely
  
 Regards to all,


----------



## Mechans1

thecrow said:


> i appreciate this info.
> 
> Excuse my ignorance - what do you mean re the feedback loop at rest? Does that come out in pinging or humming screeching?
> 
> ...


 

 Why do you say ignorant, it's a disparaging word. 
 What I mean is just what you illustrated, when normal room activity like moving a mouse, causes the tube to react (send a signal out). The sound is just like any microphonic sound same thing.  I have never had one that made microphonic sound at true rest, I overstated it.  That sound if it were to exist would sound like microphone feedback I am guessing. I assume that those tubes either don't exist or are culled, but very microphonic I have had a number of experiences with. 
 I had some RCA special red base 6592 6SN7GT s I won on auction (not Ebay for once) the guy made himself out to be the tube provider to many celebrities and his knowledge of tubes encyclopedic.  These tubes rang like bell -really with just a  little activity.  He wouldn't take them back or provide any remedy.  I feel sorry for all those stars getting shafted like I was.  I can't remember what I did with them, but I did not sell them to someone else.  I refuse to do that..


----------



## Mechans1

Can someone tell me where I can "order"  Bendix 6080 tubes.  I appreciate it.  I have been on a 6080 diet for a while now.  That is after eating from 5998 plate of overdone tired old tubes..  I agree whole heartedly when you get a Domino plated tube working it is clearly superior , not so sure about the run of the mill 6AS7Gs.


----------



## adeadcrab

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CARBON-PLATE-NOS-NIB-PAIR-6336A-RCA-POWER-TUBES-BENDIX-USA-MADE-6080-421A-6AS7-/272081700455?hash=item3f59554667:g:qTQAAOSwhkRWdOFo


----------



## 2359glenn

adeadcrab said:


> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CARBON-PLATE-NOS-NIB-PAIR-6336A-RCA-POWER-TUBES-BENDIX-USA-MADE-6080-421A-6AS7-/272081700455?hash=item3f59554667:g:qTQAAOSwhkRWdOFo


 

 Be careful a 6336 is not a 6080 or 6AS7 it has a 5amp filament and will burn up most amps that are not made to use it.
 To expensive anyway.


----------



## adeadcrab

thanks glen, did not know that


----------



## Dogmatrix

adeadcrab said:


> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CARBON-PLATE-NOS-NIB-PAIR-6336A-RCA-POWER-TUBES-BENDIX-USA-MADE-6080-421A-6AS7-/272081700455?hash=item3f59554667:g:qTQAAOSwhkRWdOFo


 
 ​
 Beware this seller
 They often list tube X = X when they don't or describe common tubes as very rare , prices are also very high


----------



## Mechans1

dogmatrix said:


> ​
> Beware this seller
> They often list tube X = X when they don't or describe common tubes as very rare , prices are also very high


 

 I share this concern. He is very well known on a tube forum I participate in. Always use caution with unusual tubes.  With this one I don't see a clear lineage back  to Bendix.It may be there, I just don't see any overt evidence of it..
 I bought a couple of 5998s and some 421As and just about gave up finding a really good pair and have been  using 6080s instead despite the finer definition and superior imaging of the 5998 type tubes.  .  Tonight I decided to give the Chatam 6080s a rest and just reached into one of my tube boxes and pulled out a mismatched pair of one 421A and a JAN 5998 Chatham rubber banded together, they sound really good, and aren't as badly mismatched as they appear.
 I'm am looking for the Bendix 6080 and the GEC as well, will let you know if I find a decent supply.


----------



## thecrow

whirlwind said:


> I usually let my 5998 warm up about 20-30 minutes before listening...The pinging seems to be normal for these tubes until they warm up.....they could get better though.





mechans1 said:


> Why do you say ignorant, it's a disparaging word.
> What I mean is just what you illustrated, when normal room activity like moving a mouse, causes the tube to react (send a signal out). The sound is just like any microphonic sound same thing.  I have never had one that made microphonic sound at true rest, I overstated it.  That sound if it were to exist would sound like microphone feedback I am guessing. I assume that those tubes either don't exist or are culled, but very microphonic I have had a number of experiences with.
> I had some RCA special red base 6592 6SN7GT s I won on auction (not Ebay for once) the guy made himself out to be the tube provider to many celebrities and his knowledge of tubes encyclopedic.  These tubes rang like bell -really with just a  little activity.  He wouldn't take them back or provide any remedy.  I feel sorry for all those stars getting shafted like I was.  I can't remember what I did with them, but I did not sell them to someone else.  I refuse to do that..



So the last two nights I'm finding this one ts5998 will ping a little over the first 20-30 minutes and then there's nothing after that. Am I right in thinking that should be no major concern and all good to keep as I did not overpay for these? 
Thanks


----------



## thecrow

mechans1 said:


> Can someone tell me where I can "order"  Bendix 6080 tubes.  I appreciate it.  I have been on a 6080 diet for a while now.  That is after eating from 5998 plate of overdone tired old tubes..  I agree whole heartedly when you get a Domino plated tube working it is clearly superior , not so sure about the run of the mill 6AS7Gs.


I just bought some from this seller they are in transit

Not sure if he has any more or can get any or if from his own stack
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201496959974?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## thecrow

After reading Badas recommendation of the mullards 6080 tubes and a lot of good info I got from a number of members here (a few pages ago) I just received them from langrex. Received in great condition and working perfectly. First impressions (20 minutes) are great. 

Nice touch of warmth on my wa 2 with hd800. More detail than i expected and very clean. Good level of detail. (I'm not saying these are ge 6as7g). Nice weight in sound as I have read others say. Definite keepers at these prices of £66 for the pair. With my first listen, mind you, and at these prices I too strongly recommend them in this warmer style. 

And this was with some cheaper bugle boys that i have that are not the most detailed and are a little rolled off on the top end. 

Interested in how they will work (or not) with my Amperex 6922 pq, when everyone's asleep in 6 hrs 39 minutes. 

Thanks everyone


----------



## whirlwind

thecrow said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I usually let my 5998 warm up about 20-30 minutes before listening...The pinging seems to be normal for these tubes until they warm up.....they could get better though.
> ...


 
 Yes, I think you are all good
  


thecrow said:


> After reading @Badas recommendation of the mullards 6080 tubes and a lot of good info I got from a number of members here (a few pages ago) I just received them from langrex. Received in great condition and working perfectly. First impressions (20 minutes) are great.
> 
> Nice touch of warmth on my wa 2 with hd800. More detail than i expected and very clean. Good level of detail. (I'm not saying these are ge 6as7g). Nice weight in sound as I have read others say. Definite keepers at these prices of £66 for the pair. With my first listen, mind you, and at these prices I too strongly recommend them in this warmer style.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree, I love the warm sound from the Mullard 6080....nice tubes


----------



## thecrow

whirlwind said:


> Yes, I think you are all good
> 
> I agree, I love the warm sound from the Mullard 6080....nice tubes


Thanks for confirming some certainty, more or less, as much as one could, on the ts5998. 

I might have to pull out frampton comes alive for the Mullard 6080 tubes

How would you compare those with the Thompson and gec 6080. Am I right in thinking the thompsons are pretty average?

And how have you found the norne draug v2 with the hd800? Do tubes make more of a change than the cable? 

Also are these the graphite be six 6080wb?
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5337413452&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F201496959974%3F_trksid%3Dp2057872.m2749.l2649%26ssPageName%3DSTRK%253AMEBIDX%253AIT


----------



## whirlwind

thecrow said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I think you are all good
> ...


 
 Thompson 6080 is pretty good for the price, especially if you can find them when they are about $15 each.   Mullard 6080 is a better tube overall.....I really like the Mullards warm sound, not a bit of edge to it.
  
 The GEC is even better than the Mullard IMO.....it is warm also, but not as much as the Mullard....and everything is more refined. Some may like the Mullard better, probably depends on the rest of your gear and just what sound you like better.
  
 Now what one is the best bang for the buck.....that is another story.
  
 Yes those Bendix tubes are the graphite plates.....they are nice tubes with great bass


----------



## thecrow

whirlwind said:


> Thompson 6080 is pretty good for the price, especially if you can find them when they are about $15 each.   Mullard 6080 is a better tube overall.....I really like the Mullards warm sound, not a bit of edge to it.
> 
> The GEC is even better than the Mullard IMO.....it is warm also, but not as much as the Mullard....and everything is more refined. Some may like the Mullard better, probably depends on the rest of your gear and just what sound you like better.
> 
> ...


Thanks for confirming the bendix tubes. 

So the gec 6080 are closer to the ts5998?


I enjoyed the mullards last night - nicely forgiving when needed on certain (lesser) recordings, especially compared to the ge 6as7g. Mullards had some some great overall warm tone. Detail/natural sound will fall short (upper mids and lower treble) for some albums/listening sessions - horses for courses. Robert cray and Tom petty sounded good.

The ge 6as7g has that special layering and detail when that is best served too. Last night REM, Phil Collins. And my ts5998's sit somewhere in the middle - good detail, a bit punchy but not quite as detailed as the ge but more definition/detail than the mullards. (Simply red)

I'm sure my beloved steely dan will suit all of these

Good times!!!!


----------



## thecrow

whirlwind said:


> Thompson 6080 is pretty good for the price, especially if you can find them when they are about $15 each.   Mullard 6080 is a better tube overall.....I really like the Mullards warm sound, not a bit of edge to it.
> 
> The GEC is even better than the Mullard IMO.....it is warm also, but not as much as the Mullard....and everything is more refined.


are gec6080 the same tube as gec 6as7ga?


----------



## thecrow

whirlwind said:


> I usually let my 5998 warm up about 20-30 minutes before listening...The pinging seems to be normal for these tubes until they warm up.....they could get better though.


After tonight I definitely agree this tube needs 30 minutes to warm up. Bass, mids and treble disjointed initially (particularly mids). 30 minutes later soooooo much better. Rich, punchy , lively yet a little warm. Great (somewhat) meaty tone. No need to roll tubes tonight to find an enjoyable sound

Lot less pinging now. Lot less. Almost minimal in the first 10 mins.


----------



## Oskari

thecrow said:


> are gec6080 the same tube as gec 6as7ga?


 
  
 GEC 6080:
  


telecaster said:


>


 
  
 GEC 6AS7G:
  


ultrainferno said:


>


----------



## Ultrainferno

ultrainferno said:


> Just got these NOS, quite happy!


 
  
 It does magic in my Bottlehead Crack! If only I had time to listen to it


----------



## whirlwind

thecrow said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I usually let my 5998 warm up about 20-30 minutes before listening...The pinging seems to be normal for these tubes until they warm up.....they could get better though.
> ...


 
 Great to hear, this is pretty much what I experienced as well.....enjoy them, they make for a great listening experience.


----------



## thecrow

oskari said:


> GEC 6080:
> 
> 
> GEC 6AS7G:


And the gec 6as7g*a*tubes?





ultrainferno said:


> It does magic in my Bottlehead Crack! If only I had time to listen to it


absolutely!!! Expensive but great.


----------



## Oskari

thecrow said:


> And the gec 6as7g*a*tubes?




No such thing.

But there's the *GE* 6AS7GA:




badas said:


>


----------



## thecrow

oskari said:


> No such thing.
> 
> But there's the *GE* 6AS7GA:


In that case....is there any difference between ge 6as7ga and Gec 6080?

Are ge tubes from the same company as Gec? Is ge and Gec different companies? What's going on in this crazy world??
thanks


----------



## Skylab

GE = General Electric, the US company

GEC = General Electric Company, the U.K. Company

They are not related.


----------



## thecrow

skylab said:


> GE = General Electric, the US company
> 
> GEC = General Electric Company, the U.K. Company
> 
> They are not related.


Many thanks - that will make things clearer for me between tubes


----------



## abvolt

thecrow said:


> Many thanks - that will make things clearer for me between tubes


 
 imo the ge 6as7g's are mediocre sounding at best stick with your mullard 6080's can't even compare the 2 tubes..


----------



## Oskari

abvolt said:


> imo the ge 6as7g's are mediocre sounding at best stick with your mullard 6080's can't even compare the 2 tubes..




GA (see above) or G (see below)?




golden monkey said:


> Quote:


----------



## thecrow

abvolt said:


> imo the ge 6as7g's are mediocre sounding at best stick with your mullard 6080's can't even compare the 2 tubes..


It's all good now as I've got a few different power tubes but was not previously sure the ge and gec were different companies. And with what I have no real need for gec6080 tubes - apart from satisfying a curiosity of what exactly they sound like. But not cheap enough to spend more $ on tubes and to add to my collection


----------



## abvolt

oskari said:


> GA (see above) or G (see below)?


 
 that tube sure looks like it was made by rca to me..


----------



## Johnnysound

abvolt said:


> that tube sure looks like it was made by rca to me..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## thecrow

For the old timers

The woo wa2 output transformerless amp using the mullards 6080 playing

(with my hd800)
Is absolutely fantastic - with a bit of David Bowie in the back, of course

"You're going to reap just what you sow"


----------



## u2u2

thecrow said:


> It's all good now as I've got a few different power tubes but was not previously sure the ge and gec were different companies. And with what I have no real need for gec6080 tubes - apart from satisfying a curiosity of what exactly they sound like. But not cheap enough to spend more $ on tubes and to add to my collection


 

 Last summer I almost ordered a selection of power tubes from Langrex including the GEC and Mullard variants. I put my order off over some less favourable comments on the Mullard 6080 tubes and not getting off the fence and buying the target amp, a Woo WA22. The WA22 has now been in my hands a few weeks and I have been rolling a variety of tubes. My Langrex order got shortened due to some tubes being in short supply and costs going up. My order is in customs at this moment.
  
 Out of the selection of power tubes I have in hand the lowly GE 6AS7GAs were my last pick. Sort of a throw away fleshing out another order, after all I was already paying all the other costs for an order, they were almost free. They are the ugliest, lowest cost, least promising tubes I have bought between my two Woo amps. The last to be rolled into my amp I put them in yesterday morning. Played them all day, all evening, and they are on now. B. B. King, Blues on the Bayou. They will stay in use until my Langrex order arrives. The noise floor with the GE 6AS7GA is the lowest of the tubes I have tried. My already tried alternates include: 1953 RCA 6AS7G, 1962 Sylvania 7236, 1972 Raytheon 6080WC, 1988 GE 6080WC, and National 6080WA (RCA?). Given what I have rolled already, and read on the net, I am not sure where I will end up but as I build my tube collection I have found some of the least likely offer fine performance. My excuse to, with time. try em all. Don't discount tubes that aren't given praise. That is how I first passed on Mullards and might have passed on the GEs. In the end the only data that matters is your own listening on your own gear...


----------



## abvolt

u2u2 said:


> Last summer I almost ordered a selection of power tubes from Langrex including the GEC and Mullard variants. I put my order off over some less favourable comments on the Mullard 6080 tubes and not getting off the fence and buying the target amp, a Woo WA22. The WA22 has now been in my hands a few weeks and I have been rolling a variety of tubes. My Langrex order got shortened due to some tubes being in short supply and costs going up. My order is in customs at this moment.
> 
> Out of the selection of power tubes I have in hand the lowly GE 6AS7GAs were my last pick. Sort of a throw away fleshing out another order, after all I was already paying all the other costs for an order, they were almost free. They are the ugliest, lowest cost, least promising tubes I have bought between my two Woo amps. The last to be rolled into my amp I put them in yesterday morning. Played them all day, all evening, and they are on now. B. B. King, Blues on the Bayou. They will stay in use until my Langrex order arrives. The noise floor with the GE 6AS7GA is the lowest of the tubes I have tried. My already tried alternates include: 1953 RCA 6AS7G, 1962 Sylvania 7236, 1972 Raytheon 6080WC, 1988 GE 6080WC, and National 6080WA (RCA?). Given what I have rolled already, and read on the net, I am not sure where I will end up but as I build my tube collection I have found some of the least likely offer fine performance. My excuse to, with time. try em all. Don't discount tubes that aren't given praise. That is how I first passed on Mullards and might have passed on the GEs. In the end the only data that matters is your own listening on your own gear...


 
 not sure why anyone would give a mullard 6080 an unfavorable comment, but to each his own I guess. I've owned & sold most all the tube you've mentioned and say that the mullards are miles above those other tubes, you owe it to your self to try them, they take a little burn in time but certainly well worth it..Enjoy


----------



## u2u2

abvolt said:


> not sure why anyone would give a mullard 6080 an unfavorable comment, but to each his own I guess. I've owned & sold most all the tube you've mentioned and say that the mullards are miles above those other tubes, you owe it to your self to try them, they take a little burn in time but certainly well worth it..Enjoy


 

 Scattered comment in the early years of this thread. Possibly because better tubes were more readily available in those days. I hope to have two pair of Mullards in hand very soon, just need them to clear our customs. Of those I have tried so far only the 1953 RCA 6AS7G were a total fail. So poor I can't even consider trying to sell them... Thank you for your comment.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Decided to take a GEC 6AS7G out of my Apex Teton and pop in a Mullard 6080 and it really is very good. Not sure if the GEC is on it's last legs but there is more weight to the Mullard that is very welcome. Have been thinking about getting a replacement GEC but may have to rethink as the Mullard is around a 5th or a 1/4 of the cost.


----------



## thecrow

now most things have their pros and cons and in headfi there are compromises in getting closest to what you look for in sound. having said that.....
  
 the gec 6as7g tubes are back in the wa2 tonight. it's like the adults have entered the room again. the clarity and detail.
  
 amongst other things, listening to the paris, texas soundtrack (ry cooder) these tubes just make me stand up and take notice


----------



## hypnos1

alvin sawdust said:


> Decided to take a GEC 6AS7G out of my Apex Teton and pop in a Mullard 6080 and it really is very good. Not sure if the GEC is on it's last legs but there is more weight to the Mullard that is very welcome. Have been thinking about getting a replacement GEC but may have to rethink as the Mullard is around a 5th or a 1/4 of the cost.


 
 Interesting re the Mullard...more weight? How about the clarity and detail mentioned by thecrow, below? Same wonderful air and openness, plus balance/control/cohesion?...And that "je ne sais quoi" magic that just hits you straight off?
  
 Don't suppose you've tried the GEC 6080 at all?
  


thecrow said:


> now most things have their pros and cons and in headfi there are compromises in getting closest to what you look for in sound. having said that.....
> 
> the gec 6as7g tubes are back in the wa2 tonight. it's like the adults have entered the room again. the clarity and detail.
> 
> amongst other things, listening to the paris, texas soundtrack (ry cooder)* these tubes just make me stand up and take notice*


 
  
 Hope you don't mind my highlighting your words, but this is precisely what has got me totally addicted to these in my Feliks-Audio Elise, regardless of the drivers used. One can list all sorts of 'audiophile' terms to describe their sound - and virtues - but it is this more 'emotional?' response that I personally believe is what _really_ defines these wonderful tubes...IMHO, of course!...


----------



## alvin sawdust

Funny you should ask about the GEC 6080, hopefully that will be my next port of call.
  
 I'm pretty sure my GEC 6AS7G has it's best days behind. Even so there is a wider soundstage and slighly more air with the GEC 6AS7G. The Mullard is definitely a great tube for the money though. I find with the Teton it is the driver tube (6SN7) that makes the biggest changes to the sound.
 Will have to see if I can source a new GEC 6AS7G without having my pants pulled down.


----------



## hypnos1

alvin sawdust said:


> Funny you should ask about the GEC 6080, hopefully that will be my next port of call.
> 
> I'm pretty sure my GEC 6AS7G has it's best days behind. Even so there is a wider soundstage and slighly more air with the GEC 6AS7G. The Mullard is definitely a great tube for the money though. I find with the Teton it is the driver tube (6SN7) that makes the biggest changes to the sound.
> Will have to see if I can source a new GEC 6AS7G without having my pants pulled down.


 
  
 Yo, alvin...it appears many rate the GEC 6080 above the Mullard - but as usual, preference has its part to play...and, of course, the driver(s) used.
 But I sure wish you luck with the replacement GEC 6AS7G...perhaps one day, you might be as lucky as I was, spotting an Osram curved-bottom base A1834 listed as a Haltron 6AS7G on ebay - fortunately, not too many noticed its pedigree from the photo, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








. (Sorry to rub it in, but couldn't believe my luck when £70 won it!...). So regular, careful scouring can _sometimes_ uncover a gold nugget...keep looking!!...and GOOD LUCK!...


----------



## maheeinfy

TV7 test result -  64/66, 68/68   Minimum 36/36
  
 Does this indicate that tubes are matched?


----------



## thecrow

maheeinfy said:


> TV7 test result -  64/66, 68/68   Minimum 36/36
> 
> Does this indicate that tubes are matched?


I'm no veteran with tubes but if they were the tubes I was seeking and were at a good/attractive price I'd be happy with those.


----------



## MIKELAP

maheeinfy said:


> TV7 test result -  64/66, 68/68   Minimum 36/36
> 
> Does this indicate that tubes are matched?


 
 They test very good and i would say they are matched usually it is whithin 10%


----------



## thecrow

hypnos1 said:


> Interesting re the Mullard...more weight? How about the clarity and detail mentioned by thecrow, below? Same wonderful air and openness, plus balance/control/cohesion?...And that "je ne sais quoi" magic that just hits you straight off?
> 
> Don't suppose you've tried the GEC 6080 at all?
> 
> ...


 
 tonight i've kept the gec 6as7g's in but replaced the amperex 6922 pq's with bugle boys and i'm loving the (relative) detail again and a little of the sharpness of the hd800's taken off.
  
 the bugle boys do take a bit of detail and air away but make the sound more FRIENDLY (laid back) to a broader range of music


----------



## alvin sawdust

Now then. Something that I forgot about is that I replaced the power lead on my amp with a Lessloss Sig. and after a few days cooking it has added a real magic to the sound with additional weight. I have popped the GEC 6AS7G back in and it sounds damn fine and it is absolutely dead quiet now thanks to the Lessloss. Sounds like there is still life left in the GEC after all. Compared to the Mullard it has a ethereal quality whereas the Mullard is more direct and centre focused, if that makes sense. I could happily live with the Mullard if I hadn't heard the GEC. Still going to get a new GEC 6AS7G and the 6080 variant.


----------



## alvin sawdust

The Mullard 6080 I have been using. Black plates, halo getter and copper rods by the looks of it.


----------



## JazzVinyl

alvin sawdust said:


> The Mullard 6080 I have been using. Black plates, halo getter and copper rods by the looks of it.




Very good. I love my Mullard 6080's from 1970, as well.

Congrats on the GEC!! 

Have you tried multiple 6BL7's?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-Gold-plated-6BL7-TO-6AS7-tube-converter-adapter-/191792226144


----------



## alvin sawdust

jazzvinyl said:


> Very good. I love my Mullard 6080's from 1970, as well.
> 
> Congrats on the GEC!!
> 
> ...


 
 Have you tried the adapter JazzVinyl?


----------



## Mechans1

I have the same Mullard 6080s that you show, black plate halo getter'  I put them in and they have stayed there as my preferred power tube. Are they better than a WE 421A well, yes in my gear with the tubes I could get, most in mediocre or worse condition.  If I ever got some 421As  in true NOS condition perhaps my view could very change.
 As a rule many pieces of hi fi gear will speak of short pathways and minimal board components and junctions.  All of these adapters ignore these guidelines by making the circuit longer and having junctions.   I do own a Garage 1217 6SN7 adapter but, that is all for the moment .  I will stick to my traditional perspective on the matter for now.
 Finally where does one (me) find GEC 6AS7G or their equivalent.


----------



## thecrow

mechans1 said:


> I have the same Mullard 6080s that you show, black plate halo getter'  I put them in and they have stayed there as my preferred power tube. Are they better than a WE 421A well, yes in my gear with the tubes I could get, most in mediocre or worse condition.  If I ever got some 421As  in true NOS condition perhaps my view could very change.
> As a rule many pieces of hi fi gear will speak of short pathways and minimal board components and junctions.  All of these adapters ignore these guidelines by making the circuit longer and having junctions.   I do own a Garage 1217 6SN7 adapter but, that is all for the moment .  I will stick to my traditional perspective on the matter for now.
> Finally where does one (me) find GEC 6AS7G or their equivalent.


Valvetubes.com had a pair available the other week. 
 I was quoted £350 for the pair


----------



## abvolt

Well I just had to try a pair of TS 5998's which offer tons of gain for my amp I was surprised at first I've never had a tube offer that much gain. These tubes go very deep in bass and has a full-bodied texture with a wide soundstage that is really clean, it's almost like they have a magical combination of control, harmonic richness and transparency. The TS 5998's are king or at least near the top for me, these tubes make a huge difference. They just sound so "right" I'll add some pics later they sound soo good right now I don't want to remove them from my amp..enjoy the music


----------



## alvin sawdust

mechans1 said:


> I have the same Mullard 6080s that you show, black plate halo getter'  I put them in and they have stayed there as my preferred power tube. Are they better than a WE 421A well, yes in my gear with the tubes I could get, most in mediocre or worse condition.  If I ever got some 421As  in true NOS condition perhaps my view could very change.
> As a rule many pieces of hi fi gear will speak of short pathways and minimal board components and junctions.  All of these adapters ignore these guidelines by making the circuit longer and having junctions.   I do own a Garage 1217 6SN7 adapter but, that is all for the moment .  I will stick to my traditional perspective on the matter for now.
> Finally where does one (me) find GEC 6AS7G or their equivalent.


 
 Had the Mullard back in my amp last night and there is definitely some magic there, no softening of the frequency extremes to my ears. 
  
 Mullard 5U4G/Mullard 6080/Brimar 6SN7GT.


----------



## thecrow

whirlwind said:


> Thompson 6080 is pretty good for the price, especially if you can find them when they are about $15 each.   Mullard 6080 is a better tube overall.....I really like the Mullards warm sound, not a bit of edge to it.
> 
> The GEC is even better than the Mullard IMO.....it is warm also, but not as much as the Mullard....and everything is more refined. Some may like the Mullard better, probably depends on the rest of your gear and just what sound you like better.
> 
> ...


 

 i received the bendix 6080wb tubes tonight.
  
 the mullards have nice weight on those but with first impressions over the last 2 hours these 6080wb tubes seem to have real guts to them (re bass).
  
 i'll mix and match a little over the next few days using a couple of driver tubes i have but i'm thinking the detail is a bit better then the mullards, the mullards being softer and "tubey" but these 6080wb tubes having more grunt and nice timbre right through - and this is with hd800's
  
 this was with bugle boys, but i'll try my amperex 6922 pqs that are a bit more lively and less rolled off
  
 looking forward to next few days playing with these


----------



## maheeinfy

Sorry if it was answered before...
  
 What is the difference between 6080 vs 6080WA/WB/WC variants.
  
 I read that W variants are more rugged..Is that all? 
  
 Sonically, which ones are preferable?


----------



## mordy

Hi maheeinfy,
  
 It is a good question. You could also add to the question what the difference is between 6080 and 6AS7GA tubes.
  
 The A, B, C variants refer to various minor design specification changes. Then you have to add the plain 6080 to the mix. As you state, the W stands for more rugged construction for military use.
  
 All of them sound a little different. People seem to prefer the plain 6080 over the later ones (I like the Sylvanias). The famous (and expensive) Bendix with the graphite plates only exists as 6080WB. The Mullard 6080 ranks as one of the best 6080 tubes.
  
 I had some Sylvania tubes that the box said 6080WC and the tubes were marked 6AS7GA.
  
 It is said that the 6080 is a 6AS7 in a straight glass (tubular) envelope. The 6AS7 has a ST Coke bottle shaped glass envelope (ST= Shoulder Type). Maybe because the 6080 is smaller they run hotter than the 6AS7 tubes.
  
 Regarding the 6080 tubes, I would recommend buying the 6AS7GA instead of the 6080. It is not as well known, and therefore often cheaper, and sounds great. Look for older ones from 50's-60's from GE. There are later ones from GE from the 70's and 80's, but IMHO the earlier GE tubes sound better.
  
 There are also inexpensive 6AS7GA tubes from Sylvania and RCA that sound excellent and these tubes are still great buys and recommended.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## maheeinfy

mordy said:


> Hi maheeinfy,
> 
> It is a good question. You could also add to the question what the difference is between 6080 and 6AS7GA tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 Great info and suggestions. Thank you!


----------



## Thenewguy007

maheeinfy said:


> Sorry if it was answered before...
> 
> What is the difference between 6080 vs 6080WA/WB/WC variants.
> 
> ...


 
  
 From a few pages back


puzzles said:


> Generally, the older the tube, the better. The WA-standard was set up in the 50's (?), which was superseded by the WB standard in the early 60's, which was in turn replaced by the WC-standard in the late 60's. I personally would pick WA over WB-tubes and avoid the WC-stuff because these come from the 70's or 80's. Many tubes from that age sound worse than their earlier counterparts. I have the 6080WA and 6080WB and I thought that the WB-tubes sounded less transparent. But I didn't use them for long, it could very well be that I was biased by my expectations.


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Yo, alvin...it appears many rate the GEC 6080 above the Mullard - but as usual, preference has its part to play...and, of course, the driver(s) used.
> But I sure wish you luck with the replacement GEC 6AS7G...perhaps one day, you might be as lucky as I was, spotting an Osram curved-bottom base A1834 listed as a Haltron 6AS7G on ebay - fortunately, not too many noticed its pedigree from the photo, lol!  :bigsmile_face: . (Sorry to rub it in, but couldn't believe my luck when £70 won it!...). So regular, careful scouring can _sometimes_ uncover a gold nugget...keep looking!!...and GOOD LUCK!...




Hi H1 ! Lucky find that one, and I am still looking, but GEC 6AS7G asking prices are really crazy !! 
So, never heard one, maybe some day...however, I do have a pair of very nice NOS, 65 vintage Mullard 6080s, playing at this very moment driven by C3gs (sorry for the bad pic)


I do agree with alvin impressions about the Mullard 6080, they do have great extension and weight in the bass, ( and are also very refined and extended in the highs) and for "extension" I mean they can go really low for a tube. The proof is simple: since I use my LDIII as a preamp for the main speakers, with a separate, passive preamp for the two subwoofers (as you know, a passive can go veeeery deep indeed) switching it off will tell you instantly what the tubes can do, if only by the amount of deep bass you are NOT hearing any more !! 

In my experiment, some 6080s like the Sylvania 6080WC do showed great bass, but not as deep or as precisely defined as the Mullards. And, none of my "coke bottle" 6AS7Gs (Chatham, GE, RCA) could even approach the lowest octaves like the Mullards. However, on the whole I still prefer the sound of the big bottles for its openess and sense of space, even "ethereal" qualities, and again following alvin impressions, I feel the Mullards are indeed more direct and "centered" , IMHO a characteristic of all 6080 tubes. With all due respect to the mythical GEC 6AS7G, It is still an ST type, so I am not surprised at all that the Mullards showed greater weight in the bass...


----------



## adeadcrab

have you tried bendix 6080WB?


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Hi H1 ! Lucky find that one, and I am still looking, but GEC 6AS7G asking prices are really crazy !!
> So, never heard one, maybe some day...however, I do have a pair of very nice NOS, 65 vintage Mullard 6080s, playing at this very moment driven by C3gs (sorry for the bad pic)
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi J...those Mullards do indeed sound a very good tube, and a good buy compared to the likes of the GEC/Osrams or 5998s - a real shame these Coke bottles are such a ridiculous price these days. But from what I'm gathering, there's no way I would want to compromise on that 'ethereal' quality...of the GECs especially, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And luckily, that bass element has been nicely sorted by the use of different drivers in our Elises - firstly by the ECC31 (a common-cathode version preceding the ECC32/CV181); then the 12V Philips FDD20 and finally the EL3N, which I (and most others) are finding to deliver even better bass, along with other qualities. So this discovery now gives all the bass I could ever wish for....and seals the fate of the Mullards once and for all! - for _*me, and my set-up*_, of course....things could be quite different for other set-ups and ears, needless to say...
  
 But keep a sharp eye out for the hidden 'nuggets' also - and with _patience, patience and more patience__!_...not to mention a good dose of _*luck!*_


----------



## Mechans1

A dumb question from the uninitiated.  Are these different GEC tubes "domino": plated tubes.  I am unclear about these" curved bottom" tubes . What do they look like,, curved on the base?  where?.  Can you enlighten me? Thanks


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> A dumb question from the uninitiated.  Are these different GEC tubes "domino": plated tubes.  I am unclear about these" curved bottom" tubes . What do they look like,, curved on the base?  where?.  Can you enlighten me? Thanks


 
  
 "Domino" plate is the term used to describe 5998/2399 tubes manufactured only by Chatham/Tung-Sol. The plates used in the GEC 6AS7  look rather similar to those found in RCA, Chatham/Tung-Sol and even the Russian varieties.
  
 "Curved bottom" is a term used to describe the bottom of the base of certain British tubes. For example, a Cossor CV378 on the left and a 5998/2399 (with "domino" plates) on the right. As you can see, the base of the Cossor is slightly curved in towards the bottom, my guess, to more easily fit into bottom mounted sockets.
  

  
 And a pair of curved base GEC/Marconi 6AS7.


----------



## Mechans1

OK Thanks I see the inward curve of the base. I like the look of those Marconis, really nice.


----------



## hypnos1

mechans1 said:


> OK Thanks I see the inward curve of the base. I like the look of those Marconis, really nice.


 
  
 Hi Mechans1...just thought you might like to see the GEC/Osram (labelled Haltron 6AS7G) I spoke of  - they are indeed beautiful-looking tubes as well as beautiful-sounding...


----------



## Mechans1

I see why you are so happy with 0your find. .I feels good to pick up  a special and  in this case rare tube.  I was always thrilled picking a sleeper out  of a lot.  I found several true bad boys that way  anda few T  plated chromed Sylvanias as well


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Mechans1...just thought you might like to see the GEC/Osram (labelled Haltron 6AS7G) I spoke of  - they are indeed beautiful-looking tubes as well as beautiful-sounding...




Love that brown base, it's quite beautiful...!

Lucky, indeed.


----------



## abvolt

I agree it's very cool love to have a pair of those..


----------



## 3083joe

Use nothing but GEC 6as7s in my wa22. 
Best sound of any power tube


----------



## JazzVinyl

3083joe said:


> Use nothing but GEC 6as7s in my wa22.
> Best sound of any power tube




Ear Candy! We hear ya! Congrats! It's a shame they are so scarce, these days.

Enjoy them!


----------



## 3083joe

Yeah. Hard to find nice and a often over priced

Kef at Valvetubes.com
Has some beautiful ones but around $500 a pair


----------



## maheeinfy

i started using RCA 6AS7G on WA2 and they sound great, lot better than the stock GE 6080WC.
  
 Jst one problem..it happened two times so far, once in left channel and once in right; Its a momentary noise peak that makes pop/jerk sound.
  
 It comes thru at high volume and i'm beginning to think if it happens often it would affect my hearing. 
  
 Is this supposed to happen with these tubes? i did not have this issue with the 6080WC


----------



## JazzVinyl

maheeinfy said:


> i started using RCA 6AS7G on WA2 and they sound great, lot better than the stock GE 6080WC.
> 
> Jst one problem..it happened two times so far, once in left channel and once in right; Its a momentary noise peak that makes pop/jerk sound.
> 
> ...




Not normal. You might want to try turning the amp on and not listening for 20 mins until it has warmed up fully. 

The RCA's are not expensive, might also try a different pair.

There is also a 6AS7GA tube at parts express that can be bought new inexpensively and these preform well:

http://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612

Cheers


----------



## maheeinfy

jazzvinyl said:


> Not normal. You might want to try turning the amp on and not listening for 20 mins until it has warmed up fully.
> 
> The RCA's are not expensive, might also try a different pair.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks. Looks like they are out of stock. I will check ebay


----------



## Thenewguy007

Can anyone confirm these are legit GEC 6AS7G tubes



  
 Something about the first picture just looks off.
 Can anyone angle their GEC to make it look like that in the first pic?


----------



## alvin sawdust

^^ They look genuine to me.


----------



## hypnos1

thenewguy007 said:


> Can anyone confirm these are legit GEC 6AS7G tubes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi...they're just fine - that's exactly how they look from that angle....a beautiful looking pair. Are they tested, and OK? GOOD LUCK!


----------



## zeed

Hi guys  I'm looking into a Mullard CV 2964 6080 and I found two actually.
 One displays a 1975 over the original box and the other a AJ1 R1F1 code on the glass.
 The construction is the same.
  
 What means the data code of the second one?


----------



## hpamdr

zeed said:


> Hi guys  I'm looking into a Mullard CV 2964 6080 and I found two actually.
> One displays a 1975 over the original box and the other a AJ1 R1F1 code on the glass.
> The construction is the same.
> 
> What means the data code of the second one?


 

 AJ1 (6080 First version revision). R1F1 is Mitcham plant (R), 197(1), JUN (F) 1st Week.  S
 ee section 2 The Code  http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v8.pdf
  
 The 1975 is probably the date when the tube was on stock at your dealer...
  
 // edited according to Ken Mullard 6080 First version AJ0, first revision AJ1 see next post for image)


----------



## gibosi

Actually, AJ0 is the first version. AJ1 represents revision #1 if you will:
  
 On the left, AJ0 R7J = 1957. And on the right, AJ1 R7K1 = 1967


----------



## gibosi

thenewguy007 said:


> Can anyone confirm these are legit GEC 6AS7G tubes


 
  
 Nice tubes. The "QA" indicates these were manufactured in Jan, 1959 (Q = 1959 and A = January).


----------



## hpamdr

gibosi said:


> Actually, AJ0 is the first version. AJ1 represents revision #1 if you will:
> 
> On the left, AJ0 R7J = 1957. And on the right, AJ1 R7K1 = 1967


 
 Thanks for your precision ... i will correct my post


----------



## u2u2

I received a variety of 6080 tubes from overseas today. Included was a matched set of 1965 Raytheon 6080WA. All new old stock... One tube has some unusual black marks and I am uncertain if I ought to use this tube or consider it a loss. Opinions welcome. Here are a couple of photos that better explain the situation.


----------



## JohnBal

u2u2 said:


> I received a variety of 6080 tubes from overseas today. Included was a matched set of 1965 Raytheon 6080WA. All new old stock... One tube has some unusual black marks and I am uncertain if I ought to use this tube or consider it a loss. Opinions welcome. Here are a couple of photos that better explain the situation.


 
 I can think of 3 possibilities:
  
 1- Bad tube. Do not use
 2- Used tube that was sold as NOS- Could be OK to use
 3- NOS tube - the black are was a product of the flashing process during manufacture - Just fine to use
  
 Without a tube tester, it will be difficult to know for sure without testing in your amp.


----------



## zeed

hpamdr said:


> AJ1 (6080 First version revision). R1F1 is Mitcham plant (R), 197(1), JUN (F) 1st Week.  S
> ee section 2 The Code  http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v8.pdf
> 
> The 1975 is probably the date when the tube was on stock at your dealer...
> ...


 
  
  


gibosi said:


> Actually, AJ0 is the first version. AJ1 represents revision #1 if you will:
> 
> On the left, AJ0 R7J = 1957. And on the right, AJ1 R7K1 = 1967


 
  
 Thank you both guys for the explanation.
  
 Do you feel there are some sonic differences between AJ0 and AJ1 versions and between different production years of the same version/revision?


----------



## u2u2

johnbal said:


> I can think of 3 possibilities:
> 
> 1- Bad tube. Do not use
> 2- Used tube that was sold as NOS- Could be OK to use
> ...


 

 Thank you for your response. I tried it out after some hesitation as the seller is a known good supplier. Once warmed up the tube started to arc so to the bin it goes. Even good sellers have off days. Three other pairs (not Raytheons) seem fine.


----------



## Mechans1

u2u2 said:


> Thank you for your response. I tried it out after some hesitation as the seller is a known good supplier. Once warmed up the tube started to arc so to the bin it goes. Even good sellers have off days. Three other pairs (not Raytheons) seem fine.


 
 The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.  ( the phrase is not " he proof is in the pudding" BTW ).  If it was sold to you as NOS you should be wary of the other so called NOS tubes from this seller.  However I could see giving this seller a pass for other good transactions.  Can you list the other tubes you got? 
 I sometimes live vicariously when I am not actually buying for myself.  I guess I am going to pull out the Sylvania 6080s, having been mentioned in this thread.  I have stopped 'investing' in power tubes for my headphone amp.  I could however, be pulled out of my retirement for some GEC or, MOV tubes if I were to see some surface.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mechans1 said:


> I have stopped 'investing' in power tubes for my headphone amp.  I could however, be pulled out of my retirement for some GEC or, MOV tubes if I were to see some surface.




LOL, an "investment" is it? I like it! 
Will have to that that one on the better half.

Have you tried multiple 6BL7's instead of 6AS7G?


----------



## u2u2

mechans1 said:


> The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.  ( the phrase is not " he proof is in the pudding" BTW ).  If it was sold to you as NOS you should be wary of the other so called NOS tubes from this seller.  However I could see giving this seller a pass for other good transactions.  Can you list the other tubes you got?
> I sometimes live vicariously when I am not actually buying for myself.  I guess I am going to pull out the Sylvania 6080s, having been mentioned in this thread.  I have stopped 'investing' in power tubes for my headphone amp.  I could however, be pulled out of my retirement for some GEC or, MOV tubes if I were to see some surface.


 

 Nothing exotic - picked up pristine sets of Mullard 6080 and CV2984 along with a pair of Brimar 6080 that look to be Sylvania. The previously mentioned Raytheons are non starters, the Brimars a miss, but I might double up on the Mullards. The set of CV2984 with a GZ32 and pair of Sylvania VT-231 have my WA22 sounding rather good. Living vicariously is a daily thing on this site.


----------



## JazzVinyl

u2u2 said:


> Nothing exotic - picked up pristine sets of Mullard 6080 and CV2984 along with a pair of Brimar 6080 that look to be Sylvania. The previously mentioned Raytheons are non starters, the Brimars a miss, but I might double up on the Mullards. The set of CV2984 with a GZ32 and pair of Sylvania VT-231 have my WA22 sounding rather good. Living vicariously is a daily thing on this site.




Since your running the 6SN7 family...

You might try 2x 6BL7's in place of a 6AS7G or 6080. I found the 2x 6BL7 really makes the 6SN7 family jump to attention and render more clarity and dynamics than they do with traditional power tubes. The bass is ultra deep as well, yet articulated. Mids and treble contain extra details, not heard so clearly, before.

Just be aware that 4x 6BL7's will draw a full 6 amps of current. In my case, I had to externally heat the driver tubes in order to not go over the suggested current limit.

Here is a photo (where I am running Tung Sol 7N7's drivers):









Cheers...


----------



## alvin sawdust

Just received a GEC 6080, bought untested and in excellent cosmetic condition, popped it in and it sounds very good. Will probably need a couple hundred hours just like the Mullard to open up fully.
 The only physical difference I can see is the GEC has longer plates than the Mullard. A decent buy at £23 I feel.


----------



## u2u2

jazzvinyl said:


> Since your running the 6SN7 family...
> 
> You might try 2x 6BL7's in place of a 6AS7G or 6080. I found the 2x 6BL7 really makes the 6SN7 family jump to attention and render more clarity and dynamics than they do with traditional power tubes. The bass is ultra deep as well, yet articulated. Mids and treble contain extra details, not heard so clearly, before.
> 
> ...


 

 You caught my attention on this topic with your earlier post. The spousal unit here is rather tolerant but those might jump out too much and cause her to rebel. On the other hand I do have some 7N7 pairs that I could get adapters for and sneak in a set of GEC 6080 if I can find some at a fair price... They don't look much different than what I already roll.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Said GEC 6080 cooking away nicely.


----------



## whirlwind

alvin sawdust said:


> Said GEC 6080 cooking away nicely.


 
 Great tubes.....enjoying them in my amp last night and today as well.


----------



## JazzVinyl

alvin sawdust said:


> Said GEC 6080 cooking away nicely.




You have the Mullard, too. Which one do you prefer from the sonic perspective?


----------



## alvin sawdust

jazzvinyl said:


> You have the Mullard, too. Which one do you prefer from the sonic perspective?


 
 Hard to say at the moment as the GEC needs some hours on it. Also I have just got my dac back after having mods done so a little time will be needed to get a handle on what is doing what.


----------



## Mechans1

alvin sawdust said:


> Hard to say at the moment as the GEC needs some hours on it. Also I have just got my dac back after having mods done so a little time will be needed to get a handle on what is doing what.


 

 I assume that you are sure it is truly NOS,   even if it is  ANOS   I think you got it at a very reasonable price. 
  I wish I could find some GEC tubes  for that kind of money or something  reasonable. 
 I notice that there are some  sellers who know the 'pain price' for some of their stuff.  They price the tubes at a point where you just can't justify buying them.  There are also the truly silly high price, obviously ridiculous, that makes you ask, ala John McEnroe,  "you cant be serious" !
 I can only speak for myself but when you see the same high priced tubes being offered over and over you would think that the seller will cut the price.  Sometimes they just don't.  Are they using the old sales technique that car dealers use like putting the convertible sports car in the showroom to just get people looking?


----------



## alvin sawdust

mechans1 said:


> I assume that you are sure it is truly NOS,   even if it is  ANOS   I think you got it at a very reasonable price.
> I wish I could find some GEC tubes  for that kind of money or something  reasonable.
> I notice that there are some  sellers who know the 'pain price' for some of their stuff.  They price the tubes at a point where you just can't justify buying them.  There are also the truly silly high price, obviously ridiculous, that makes you ask, ala John McEnroe,  "you cant be serious" !
> I can only speak for myself but when you see the same high priced tubes being offered over and over you would think that the seller will cut the price.  Sometimes they just don't.  Are they using the old sales technique that car dealers use like putting the convertible sports car in the showroom to just get people looking?


 
 I took a chance as it was advertised as untested and that is probably why I got it at the low price. Gauging it against the sound of the Mullard it is a little woolly in the lows and not as clear or engaging, but that was how the Mullard sounded with little hours on it. For that reason I have a good feeling about how the GEC will blossom with further hours. It certainly doesn't sound like I have bought a plum.
 I have seen a dealer selling these for £75 on ebay and in my eyes that is greedy.


----------



## thecrow

u2u2 said:


> Nothing exotic - picked up pristine sets of Mullard 6080 and CV2984 along with a pair of Brimar 6080 that look to be Sylvania. The previously mentioned Raytheons are non starters, the Brimars a miss, but I might double up on the Mullards. The set of CV2984 with a GZ32 and pair of Sylvania VT-231 have my WA22 sounding rather good. Living vicariously is a daily thing on this site.


If there is enough stock and no need to rush for a second pair of the mullard 6080's, don't. 

I recently bought a pair of mullards and Bendix 6080wb slotted graphite tubes and the Bendix are fantastic. 

More punchy/gutsy than the mullards. Both are warm, the mullards are easy listening and draw me in in a more subtle manner. 

I find when the mullards are in I'm happy to keep listening and enjoy with no need to switch off my amp and wait 15 minutes before changing tubes. But I'm usually more drawn to popping in the Bendix tubes in first when wanting something warm. 

I had a bit of a deep purple session last week on these. 

(A number of other head-fires here rate the Bendix tubes above the mullards)

The Bendix tubes are harder to find (on eBay) but I didn't pay too much more than the mullards at the end - certainly not as much as the tung sol 5998 or my beloved gec6as7g's


----------



## abvolt

I'd agree with that evaluation, However I'm very fond of my mullards also but my ts 5998's are absolutely superior sounding in every way so much so I had to get a second pair, never had the pleasure of listening to the gec 6as7g's sure would like to though..


----------



## maheeinfy

Ive rolled GE 6AS7GA on WA2. Its been only couple hours and i'm not hearing anything special. 
How long, before they open up?


----------



## abvolt

not too likely that's a very average sounding tube to began with imo..


----------



## Mechans1

maheeinfy said:


> Ive rolled GE 6AS7GA on WA2. Its been only couple hours and i'm not hearing anything special.
> How long, before they open up?


 

 Just as jbvolt said the GE is not a great tube.  It is not very detailed and has a top end which is drowned out by the overly boosted mid bass.  Some people like it for those qualities , 'warm or rich' but  without being resolving spatial and 3D or holographic .
 You are prolly as open as they get with 48 hrs
 all this is  my personal opinion YMMV.


----------



## ryanellison009

I've gotta agree with this. Rolled in the GE after using my chatham 6as7g for a couple weeks and wasn't too impress. Bass was a little improved but highs sounded rolled off. Definitely not as spatial or 3D as the 6as7g either...


----------



## Skylab

The only thing that was "special" about the GE 6AS7GA was that it *was* available true guaranteed NOS from parts express. However, they're out now. So yeah, it's not a tube to search out.


----------



## MIKELAP

Would anybody have infos on this Type #27 Sylvania code .Thanks


----------



## gibosi

My best guess. N = December, 0 = 1950 and R = factory.


----------



## abvolt

mikelap said:


> Would anybody have infos on this Type #27 Sylvania code .Thanks


 
  
 Also here's a site that has a lot of info on sylvania tubes check it out  mike --> http://www.tubebooks.org/sylvania_tube_manuals_online.htm


----------



## Ultrainferno

whirlwind said:


> Great tubes.....enjoying them in my amp last night and today as well.


 
  
 that looks like a Glenn amp to me ! I have his 300B integrated


----------



## whirlwind

ultrainferno said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > Great tubes.....enjoying them in my amp last night and today as well.
> ...


 
 Yes, it is.
  
 You are a lucky man !


----------



## Johnnysound

Absolutely. GE 6AS7GAs gave me exactly the same impression in my modified LDIII, (used as a preamp): very good bass, extended highs, a competent tube, but lacking air and space, a "closed in" , centered sound, and some people like it, I respect that, maybe fine for some headphones, or other amps, but in my setup this one is miles away from the great sounding tubes. And one of the best is the GE 6AS7G (without the "A") a "coke bottle" tube. The experts say that GE never manufactured this tube, but rebranded Chatham tubes made in the NJ factory. No surprise from GE giant, it was cheaper to rebrand than to set up a whole new line to build this type of tube. But, most interesting, the GE/Chatham 6AS7G "batch" is almost identical, but not exactly the same as the regular Chathams produced in the same era, and I mean around 1953 to 1959. A few days ago, I finally could get a pair of "NOS spec" Chathams, after some faulty ones, and compare them to my "NOS" GEs. No doubt the Chathams are reference tubes, great body and substance, air and space all around, that special "magic" that even the Mullards 6080 can not quite equal. The GEs do the same in a different way, very similar to the Chathams and a bit lighter sounding, maybe, but with a seductive, airy, 3D sound after proper burn in that is second to none, in my experience. Replacing the Mullards with the GEs was a clear step ahead in sound quality...


----------



## Mechans1

When things work out really good it is usually an instance of system synergy to my mind.  Some tubes do a better job at making  that synergy  possible than others.  I can assure you unfortunately, that using the same tubes, doesn't always result in that same magic.
 I do think that in a reasonable percentage of situations, that using a suggested tube, can be very helpful at creating the sound you want.  Just don't be surprised if it doesn't.


----------



## mordy

Hi JS and M1,
  
 No doubt that synergy is very important - what works great for one person sounds just regular (or worse) for somebody else.
  
 Did you try the 6BL7 quad? Some of us think that this dual combination beats the 6AS7 variants.


----------



## 3083joe

mechans1 said:


> When things work out really good it is usually an instance of system synergy to my mind.  Some tubes do a better job at making  that synergy  possible than others.  I can assure you unfortunately, that using the same tubes, doesn't always result in that same magic.
> I do think that in a reasonable percentage of situations, that using a suggested tube, can be very helpful at creating the sound you want.  Just don't be surprised if it doesn't.



Agreed


----------



## adeadcrab

edit - wrong thread


----------



## JazzVinyl

I got a 3x 6BL7 per 6AS7 socket adapter for my amp.

Had previously used 2x 6BL7 per 6AS7 slot and was pleased.

Was surprised that the 3x 6BL7 didn't seem to offer much more sound quality in my amp.

Had never been all that enamored with the GE 6AS7GA tube, but found that in my 3x adapter,
that 1x 6AS7GA and 2x 6BL7's per side - sounded great. They seem to compliment each others' virtues.

In my 2x adapter, I had tried 1x 6AS7GA and 1x 6BL7 but thought it just sounded like the 6AS7GA.
This combo: 1x 6AS7GA and 2x 6BL7 retains the details that 6BL7 bring to mids and treble and the 6AS7GA seems to enhance sound stage.




Cheers...




.


----------



## abvolt

mechans1 said:


> When things work out really good it is usually an instance of system synergy to my mind.  Some tubes do a better job at making  that synergy  possible than others.  I can assure you unfortunately, that using the same tubes, doesn't always result in that same magic.
> I do think that in a reasonable percentage of situations, that using a suggested tube, can be very helpful at creating the sound you want.  Just don't be surprised if it doesn't.


 
  
 Agreed..


----------



## Johnnysound

mechans1 said:


> When things work out really good it is usually an instance of system synergy to my mind.  Some tubes do a better job at making  that synergy  possible than others.  I can assure you unfortunately, that using the same tubes, doesn't always result in that same magic.
> I do think that in a reasonable percentage of situations, that using a suggested tube, can be very helpful at creating the sound you want.  Just don't be surprised if it doesn't.




Hi Mechans, I also agree with you, the whole thing of audio is in the end a matter of system synergy. And no doubt some tubes do the "magic" in MY system, but this does not mean in any way that the same tubes will work equally well in another system. Specially when I am talking about preamp duties, with SS amps, and I am using the same Siemens C3g as drivers, so here we have a first instance of synergy. I feel that in MY system the C3gs does not mate very well with the majority of 6080 types, (save for the Mullards and Tung Sols) but are ideal partners with virtually all coke bottles. The RCA 6as7g, for example, is generally regarded as a good but not outstanding tube. Maybe because there are so many available. Sorry, but I disagree, in my setup my quartet of NOS, 49 vintage RCAs are some of the very best sounding tubes, with a vast 3d, warm and spatial rendition that is simply captivating. A "classic" tube sound if you want.. Of course, SS amplification benefit from warmer tubes (synergy) and the specific speakers I use (LSA 2) also like it, being monitor type and great imagers, a critical factor in the resulting sound. Something like open air, dynamic headphones. Absolutely great american speakers, BTW, very different to anything I had before, and need a long 60 or 100 hours burn in at least, and I am truly impressed, in the sense that they are very "tube friendly" and will reveal the different personalities of tubes... this is not a commercial of course...but I got a pair at at a sale price 

Kind Regards,


----------



## Johnnysound

I am talking about these beauties...mine are not in the beautiful rosewood finish of the pics, but "black ash" that looks great also. Very special indeed...fast, dynamic and resolving speakers that will "dissapear" in the air...


----------



## 3083joe

People that can give 6BL7s a try in place of 6AS7s


----------



## abvolt

3083joe said:


> People that can give 6BL7s a try in place of 6AS7s


 
  
 No adapters needed just plug "n" play is that right..Thanks


----------



## JazzVinyl

I think you will find 1x 6BL7 per 6AS7 socket lacks the drive to power high impedance headphones. 2x 6BL7 per 6AS7 socket sounds much better for headphones up to 300 ohms. 

600 Ohm phones like 3x 6BL7 per 6AS7 socket. 

Also find 3x 6BL7 opens the floodgates for driver tube choices. All drivers sound good via 3x 6BL7's it is hit or miss with fewer per 6AS7 sockets. 

6BL7 as powers sound great. Bass more powerful and more articulated, mids have exciting details not present with 6AS7. 

But the down side, each 6BL7 when used in parallel uses 1.5 amps of current. So a 2x per 6AS7 adapter (4 total) uses 6 amps of current. A 3x per (6 total 6BL7) uses 9 amps of juice. 

For many amps, this means mandatory external heating of multiple 6BL7 tubes.


----------



## abvolt

Wow very cool looking great info also..Thanks


----------



## 3083joe

abvolt said:


> No adapters needed just plug "n" play is that right..Thanks



Correct.  Wonderful sound. Going to try the 2 to 1 adapter in a few days went quad matched tubes come


----------



## abvolt

I saw those will they fit in the wa22 ?


----------



## 3083joe

abvolt said:


> I saw those will they fit in the wa22 ?



Been running in mine for a week.


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Correct.  Wonderful sound. Going to try the 2 to 1 adapter in a few days went quad matched tubes come


 
  
 In any amp other than a Glenn OTL, it may be necessary to add an external heater power supply. A pair of 6AS7s draw *5.0* amps of heater current. Four 6BL7s draw* 6.0* amps of heater current. Be very sure your amp can safely provide this additional current....


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> In any amp other than a Glenn OTL, it may be necessary to add an external heater power supply. A pair of 6AS7s draw *5.0* amps of heater current. Four 6BL7s draw *6.0* amps of heater current. Be very sure your amp can safely provide this additional current....



Thanks I Understand. I talked to Glenn.


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Thanks I Understand. I talked to Glenn.


 
  
 If you  have a Glenn OTL, you can run two pairs of 6AS7, *10.0* amps, or three pairs of 6BL7,* 9.0* amps, using the internal heater power supply, so two pairs of 6BL7 is well within spec. But again, owners of other amps should check with the manufacturer before running two, much less three pairs of 6BL7.
  
 Edit: That said, if you do not have a Glenn and this is something you really, really want to do, I suspect that JazzVinyl would be happy to share how he is doing this with an external heater power supply in his Elise.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> If you  have a Glenn OTL, you can run two pairs of 6AS7, *10.0* amps, or three pairs of 6BL7, *9.0* amps, using the internal heater power supply, so two pairs of 6BL7 is well within spec. But again, owners of other amps should check with the manufacturer before running two, much less three pairs of 6BL7.
> 
> Edit: That said, if you do not have a Glenn and this is something you really, really want to do, I suspect that JazzVinyl would be happy to share how he is doing this with an external heater power supply in his Elise.



Agreed. One should be no issue tho. 
But it's always at your own risk.


----------



## abvolt

Very useful info thanks gibosi, I'll try a single pair see how they sound currently enjoying my ts 5998's which are just amazing..Enjoy


----------



## mordy

Hi abvolt,
  
 I have an Elise amp. There is no comparison using 2 x 6BL7 compared to 4 x 6BL7 - there is a great improvement in sound quality. IMHO better than my Chatham 6AS7G. More air, detail, punch and energy in the bass and treble. Also totally non fatiguing to listen to.
  
 JV reports that using 6 x 6BL7 may not improve the SQ with the same margin, but that it will allow different drivers to sound better than before, and drive low ohm headphones better.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> I think you will find 1x 6BL7 per 6AS7 socket lacks the drive to power high impedance headphones. 2x 6BL7 per 6AS7 socket sounds much better for headphones up to 300 ohms.
> 
> 600 Ohm phones like 3x 6BL7 per 6AS7 socket.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi JV...careful with the broad statements eh?...let's not forget the important parts played by the drivers...not to mention source/DAC/amp/headphones. And I suspect a good few 5998 owners - not to mention GEC/Osram CV2523/A1834 lucky guys (me included!) - might just question such a bold statement, lol!


----------



## 3083joe

hypnos1 said:


> Hi JV...careful with the broad statements eh?...let's not forget the important parts played by the drivers...not to mention source/DAC/amp/headphones. And I suspect a good few 5998 owners - not to mention GEC/Osram CV2523/A1834 lucky guys (me included!) - might just question such a bold statement, lol! :wink_face:



Maybe. But with just one in my amp I am having a real hard time going back to the GEC6as7...... 
6bl7s have a lot going for them.


----------



## hypnos1

3083joe said:


> Maybe. But with just one in my amp I am having a real hard time going back to the GEC6as7......
> 6bl7s have a lot going for them.


 
  
 Hi 3083joe...looks like you have good 'system synergy' with the 6BL7 then...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....


----------



## vapman

Are 6n6p suitable to discuss in this thread?


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hi JV...careful with the broad statements eh?...let's not forget the important parts played by the drivers...not to mention source/DAC/amp/headphones. And I suspect a good few 5998 owners - not to mention GEC/Osram CV2523/A1834 lucky guys (me included!) - might just question such a bold statement, lol! :wink_face:




Hello H1,

I own a great sounding pair of 5998's...

:wink_face:


----------



## 3083joe

hypnos1 said:


> Hi 3083joe...looks like you have good 'system synergy' with the 6BL7 then... ....



Agreed. 
Think the 6bl7 is very nice with cans like the hd800. 
Bass increase and holographic imagery


----------



## Guidostrunk

Is there a particular brand/year of 6bl7 to look for? Also , would you happen to know if they're compatible with a Woo Wa6? 
Thanks for your time. 
Cheers


3083joe said:


> Agreed.
> Think the 6bl7 is very nice with cans like the hd800.
> Bass increase and holographic imagery


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 I have some 25 6BL7 tubes. Many of them are rebranded, but there are only a few manufacturers.
  
 Firstly, there are two major types: Older tubes have parallel plates; newer ones have plates in an X shape (cross plates). Older ones many times are labeled GT (both parallel and cross plates), and newer ones are labeled GTA (have only seen cross plates of GTA).
  
 Some have double mica plates, some triple mica plates. All have top getters, round or rectangular, with the exception of the RCA  that has some side getter tubes as well.
  
 The brands I have come across are GE, Sylvania, Tung Sol, Westinghouse and RCA. Now it gets complicated. Westinghouse and some Tung Sols have the tell tale GE sand blasted dots, so they must have been made GE. Some WE and TS look identical to the GE, but without the dots - don't know if they were made by GE or not. So it seems to leave us with GE, Sylvania and RCA as the major manufacturers.
  
*Now, to answer your question:* IMHO the best sounding ones are the GE/TS cross plate tubes with rectangular getters and GT/GTA designation from the mid 50's to early 60's. For some reason, running two 6BL7 can be just fine, but some people report that running 4 or 6 there may be problems with hum from one (or more) of the tubes. With trial and error it is possible to identify the culprit and substitute with another tube that does not cause hum.
  
 At this point in time the BL tubes are great bargains with hundreds of offerings on eBay. According to some accounts, multiple 6BL7 tubes outperform some of the best 6AS7 tubes.
  
 Again, all of the above are my personal observations, and I may be incorrect in my assumptions - feel free to add corrections or other opinions.


----------



## whirlwind

3083joe said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi JV...careful with the broad statements eh?...let's not forget the important parts played by the drivers...not to mention source/DAC/amp/headphones. And I suspect a good few 5998 owners - not to mention GEC/Osram CV2523/A1834 lucky guys (me included!) - might just question such a bold statement, lol!
> ...


 
 In my amp..two 6BL7 per channel  really sounds nice with the HD800


----------



## Guidostrunk

Wow! Thanks a ton for the reply!



mordy said:


> Hi G,
> 
> I have some 25 6BL7 tubes. Many of them are rebranded, but there are only a few manufacturers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Guidostrunk

Would these meet your criteria? Just making sure that I'm looking in the right direction. Lol
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=151998316185&alt=web


mordy said:


> Hi G,
> 
> I have some 25 6BL7 tubes. Many of them are rebranded, but there are only a few manufacturers.
> 
> ...


----------



## 3083joe

guidostrunk said:


> Is there a particular brand/year of 6bl7 to look for? Also , would you happen to know if they're compatible with a Woo Wa6?
> Thanks for your time.
> Cheers



Wa6 doesn't take 6as7/6080s so I'd say no on the 6bl7


----------



## gibosi

guidostrunk said:


> ....Also , would you happen to know if they're compatible with a Woo Wa6?
> Thanks for your time.


 
  
 It might work.. but it would be best to check with Woo.
  
 The determining factor is likely the heater current. The stock 6DE7 draws 0.9 amps, and the suggested upgrade, a 6GL7, draws 1.05 amps. But the 6BL7 draws 1.5 amps, or about 1.5 times more current. So again, check with Woo.


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 I am not familiar with the Woo WA6. Looking at their ad, there are a number of upgrades for the driver/power tubes available.
  
 http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa6.html
  
 Most of them draw between 0.9 - 1.05A. There is mention of 6SN7 as well as an option with special 9pin to octal (8pin) adapters.  - the 6SN7 draws 0.6A.
  
 You would have to ask the manufacturer if the WA6 can handle 1.5A/channel. Then you need the 9pin to 8pin adapters.
  
 Perhaps somebody on the WA6 thread has experience with the BL tubes. A dual set-up would require 6A which most likely would necessitate an external power supply.


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 I see that we think alike lol......


----------



## Guidostrunk

I really appreciate all the responses. I've contacted Woo , in regards to the 6BL7. 

Cheers friends!


----------



## MIKELAP

Quote: 





guidostrunk said:


> I really appreciate all the responses. I've contacted Woo , in regards to the 6BL7.
> 
> Cheers friends!


 

 WA6 can handle 1.2A/Channel


----------



## mordy

Since the 6BL7 draws 1.5A, it rules out using it in the WA6 unless you use an external power supply.


----------



## 3083joe

?


----------



## Guidostrunk

Just received this via Woo Audio:

"Dear Sam,


Sorry for the delayed response. We just returned from a trade show in southern California.

 

6BL7 is not compatible with WA6. Below is a direct link to our tubes compatibility chart for your reference.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DdsZyTx3CJv9_cG9kVdCGZap-AldiTsvuY4Ms1K_p3k/pub?hl=en&output=html


Thanks for being a Woo Audio customer!"


~ Mike Liang


----------



## 3083joe

guidostrunk said:


> Just received this via Woo Audio:
> 
> "Dear Sam,
> 
> ...



Told me same on wa22
But......


----------



## mordy

Hi 3083joe,
  
 From what I understand, the wa22 is designed for 2 x 6AS7/6080 as power tubes. A pair of these draw 5A, so a a quad of 6BL7 that draw 6A does not seem too far off.
  
 How do you find the sound of using quad BL tubes compared to 6AS7/6080 ?


----------



## whirlwind

Two 6BL7 per channel have a lot of authority as power tubes.
  
 With these adapters , some can run two 6AS7 per channel as power tubes also.


----------



## 3083joe

mordy said:


> Hi 3083joe,
> 
> From what I understand, the wa22 is designed for 2 x 6AS7/6080 as power tubes. A pair of these draw 5A, so a a quad of 6BL7 that draw 6A does not seem too far off.
> 
> How do you find the sound of using quad BL tubes compared to 6AS7/6080 ?



I personally have switched completely to BL from GEC 6as7gs


----------



## ru4music

3083joe said:


> Told me same on wa22
> But......





> I am going down a similar path with my WA2.  Single 6BL7's sound good and I am waiting for my dual slot adaptor for the double punch.  I will be rolling in a pair of 6SN7 drivers and etc. instead of my '74 SWGP Reflektor 6N23Ps to test against.  Interesting tube, the closest sounding power tube I have heard to date is the GEC 6AS7G as well.


----------



## leftside

whirlwind said:


> Two 6BL7 per channel have a lot of authority as power tubes.
> 
> With these adapters , some can run two 6AS7 per channel as power tubes also.


 
 Where do you get the adapters from? And what are they called? Thanks.


----------



## 3083joe

leftside said:


> Where do you get the adapters from? And what are they called? Thanks.



https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/191792226144


----------



## gibosi

leftside said:


> Where do you get the adapters from? And what are they called? Thanks.


 
  
 Yes,
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191792226144
  
 However, per Mikelap's posting above the WA2 is limited to 3.5 Amps per output tube and the WA22 is limited to 3.0 amps per output tube. 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/3345#post_12441983
  
 Two 6BL7s draw 3.0 Amps, so no problem. However, two 6AS7s draw 5.0 amps which may well destroy the transformer in a WA2 / WA22 accompanied by smoke and fireworks!
  
 That said, as per Whirlwind above, a Glenn OTL can handle two 6AS7/6080, or 5 amps per output tube socket.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio/12945#post_12390488
  
 Be careful!


----------



## GrindingThud

Aside from reducing apparent plate resistance, what does this adapter do to the bias point of the tube? I'd think in a cathode biased circuit that current would drop in the tube by 1/2? Also, isn't the plate resistance of the 6BL7 too high for an OTL circuit?


----------



## gibosi

grindingthud said:


> Aside from reducing apparent plate resistance, what does this adapter do to the bias point of the tube? I'd think in a cathode biased circuit that current would drop in the tube by 1/2? Also, isn't the plate resistance of the 6BL7 too high for an OTL circuit?


 
  
 It is my understanding that the bias points for one 6AS7 are quite close to optimal for three 6BL7 in parallel. Thus, stuffing two 6BL7 into a 6AS7 socket is less than optimal. And while it would seem that the paralleled plate resistance of two or even three 6BL7s would be too high, the proof is in the listening. Many find two and/or three 6BL7s to sound better in their OTL than any 6AS7, including those that many consider the very best.
  
 I can say that to my ears, in my current configuration, the Siemens C3g sound better with 6BL7s as output tubes than they do with any 6AS7 including 5998 and GEC 6AS7. (And I should note that I have 5 pairs of 5998 and 3 pairs of GEC 6AS7....)
  
 But of course, my ears and my gear... YMMV...


----------



## GrindingThud

Interesting, I may try them out to see (hear).
My comment on the bias was intended for those that talk of multiple 6AS7 in the adapter....it's interesting that the bias works out for the three 6BL7 in parallel. With 6 sections in parallel, I guess the resistance is around 350ohms, close enough. 

My tube of choice is the 7802WB (carbon plate variant). I've been though several of the GEC, 5998, 421A, 6080, and most of the others and found the higher gain tubes to my liking.

Nice amp btw!




gibosi said:


> It is my understanding that the bias points for one 6AS7 are quite close to optimal for three 6BL7 in parallel. Thus, stuffing two 6BL7 into a 6AS7 socket is less than optimal. And while it would seem that the paralleled plate resistance of two or even three 6BL7s would be too high, the proof is in the listening. Many find two and/or three 6BL7s to sound better in their OTL than any 6AS7, including those that many consider the very best.
> 
> I can say that to my ears, in my current configuration, the Siemens C3g sound better with 6BL7s as output tubes than they do with any 6AS7 including 5998 and GEC 6AS7. (And I should note that I have 5 pairs of 5998 and 3 pairs of GEC 6AS7....)
> 
> But of course, my ears and my gear... YMMV...


----------



## gibosi

grindingthud said:


> My tube of choice is the 7802 (carbon plate variant). I've been though several of the GEC, 5998, 421A, 6080, and most of the others and found the higher gain tubes to my liking.
> 
> Nice amp btw!


 
  
 The 6BL7s have a mu of 15 and the 6BX7s have a mu of 10, so this tube family might well be worth your time to explore...
  
 And thanks! The amp is a Glenn OTL optimized for tube rolling. With up to 5 amps per output tube socket, it can handle six 6BL7, four 6AS7 or two 6336. And there are two loctal sockets for a pair of C3g or one octal 'SN7 socket which can be switched to use 6, 12 or 25 volt heaters. It's a wonderful amp for a tube roller/collector such as myself.


----------



## mordy

I am very pleased that so many people recognize the great sound of the 6BL7 tube in multiples. A long time ago I postulated that we might come across very inexpensive and easy to find tubes that would compete with the best exotic and expensive tubes. To me it seems that the 6BL7 is in this category.
  
 For those of you who may want to try dual octal adapters as referenced above ($22.50 each) I do want to point out that Mrs Xuling is able to provide a less expensive adapter (around $15) without the acrylic plates. I ordered a pair, and they work just fine. Just remember not to touch the adapters with the power on.
  
 I have a Feliks Elise amp, and at the present I am able to run it without external power using 6 tubes.  The drivers are a pair of EL3N. The power tubes are one pair of 6BL7 seasoned with a pair of Mazda 6N7G tubes. I started out using 4 x 6BL7, but this required external heating. The sound I get now is warmer and sweeter, but the bass, although everything is there, is more subtle. YMMV.
  
 The EL3N are heavy duty ST type (Coke bottle) tubes rated for some 10,000 hours of continues use. Looks like they get the prize for the longest burn in period - maybe 400 hours(!) - they just continue to improve.
  
 The sound with 4 BL or 2xBL/2x6N7G is addictive.....- the best I have heard in my system up til now.


----------



## maheeinfy

Will a single 6BL7 fit in WA2 power tube? Or are you running a single 6bl7 on an adapter with 2 slots.


----------



## whirlwind

Glenn OTL with six 6BL7
  

  
 With  four Chatham 6AS7G
  

  
 As per gibosi , above....make sure your amp can handle the current.
  
 Seems the WA22 can run two 6BL7 per channel with no problems.


----------



## MIKELAP

whirlwind said:


> Glenn OTL with six 6BL7
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 WA22 power tube slot is rated at 3.A/channel  and 2 6BL7 are rated at  3.A for two tubes/channel , cutting it close maybe ? Any thoughts .


----------



## 3083joe

mikelap said:


> WA22 power tube slot is rated at 3.A/channel  and 2 6BL7 are rated at  3.A for two tubes/channel , cutting it close maybe ? Any thoughts .



No issues with my wa22, also talked to Glenn. Think we are good but no more than pairs. 1 sounds real good tho. Not tons of difference with 2


----------



## hypnos1

Re. 6BL7 vs 6AS7G...would just like to redress the balance here.
  
 In my own particular system - Audiolab 8200CD player (also fed with hi-res signals); pure silver interconnects to Feliks-Audio Elise, with EL3N drivers and GEC/Osram CV2523/A1834 powers; Beyer T1 cans - the GECs are the final icing on the cake, delivering an _exceptional_ sound...in _*all*_ respects. Highly (overly?...probably, nowadays!) priced, yes, but not all of their reputation/rarity is down to hype/'must have', I'm sure...their pedigree has remained for a _very _long time now and is justly deserved IMHO. It will be very interesting indeed to see if the 6BL7 stands up to such scrutiny over time... if it can indeed at least match the GECs (or 5998s) in multiple systems - and ears! - then its cheap price will certainly make it an extremely attractive option. But there is still a LONG way to go yet before this accolade can be _truly_ attributed to this tube, I suspect...time will tell...
  

  
 ps. That the up-market Atma-Sphere folks still choose the 6AS7G for their amps also validates the pedigree/quality of this tube as far as I'm concerned, lol...:
  

  

  
 And so future developments will indeed be VERY interesting!!


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 IMHO the fact that Atma-Sphere chose the 6AS7 is not an endorsement that the 6AS7 is superior to other power tubes. Since their amps use many multiples of 6AS7 tubes, they need a reliable supply of tubes. The 6AS7 is still being manufactured, whereas the 6BL7 is not being made anywhere at this point in time, as far as I know.
  
 I think that they use standard Russian made 6AS7 family tubes.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> IMHO the fact that Atma-Sphere chose the 6AS7 is not an endorsement that the 6AS7 is superior to other power tubes. Since their amps use many multiples of 6AS7 tubes, they need a reliable supply of tubes. The 6AS7 is still being manufactured, whereas the 6BL7 is not being made anywhere at this point in time, as far as I know.
> 
> I think that they use standard Russian made 6AS7 family tubes.


 
  
 Sorry mordy, but must disagree with you here. Atma-Sphere have been in the forefront of OTL amps since 1976, and 'reliability of supply' certainly does not appear to be the reason for their choice of the 6AS7G at the outset - this interesting article gives a more accurate insight into their choice, and the reasons for such (continued) faith in this tube :
  
http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/The_6AS7G.php


----------



## ru4music

Quote: 





maheeinfy said:


> Will a single 6BL7 fit in WA2 power tube? Or are you running a single 6bl7 on an adapter with 2 slots.The


 
 The 6BL7 tube is "plug & play" in the WA2 power tube socket drawing only 1.5 amps (the WA2 is capable of providing 3.5 amps.)  The single tube sounds great with my hd800 or hd650 headphones and I only suspect will sound better once my 2X adaptor arrives.


----------



## whirlwind

I love the tone of the GEC 6AS7G tubes...they are definitely some of my favorites and I like the tone of them a lot.
  

  
  
 I wont say that one sounds better over the other, as I like both very much, along with the 5998 tubes...I like those a lot also.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Thank you for pointing out this very interesting article about their choice of the Russian made 6AS7 tube.
  
 It seems to me that most of the people who bought the Elise are changing the supplied Russian power tubes for different power tubes because other choices sound better. Everybody seems to agree that the Svetlanas are just fine, but I can't remember anybody who tried other power tubes recommending them as first choice.
  
 Given the up-scale nature of the Atma-Sphere amps, how do you feel about them using Russian or Chinese 6H13 or equivalent tubes?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Thank you for pointing out this very interesting article about their choice of the Russian made 6AS7 tube.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Yes indeed...in fact I found it even more interesting than the first time Acapella11(I believe) showed me this way back when I was experimenting with the 6AS7G for use in our LDs... and their faith in the Russian tubes I find particularly so.
  
 Certain assumptions are gonna have to be made here, until I can hopefully gain more info from Atma-Sphere direct on such matters (my interest has _really_ been sparked on this re-read, lol!).
  
 I think it's fairly safe to assume that way back at developmental stage, a variety of (American) 6AS7Gs were used at prototype - especially given their reference to Russian tubes from the _'80s_ onwards. But then - even if not from the outset - they were obviously very pleased with the Russians' performance....else why continue to make very expensive amps that weren't special enough to ensure survival in a growingly competetive market, lol?! And then to continue with them after constant "re-evaluation" would further point to their assessment of the 6AS7G as being the power tube of choice...(obviously, in more recent years newer production tubes have to be a part of the equation due to availability).
  
 And so the question is indeed -  how come their continued use of the Russian tubes in such hi-end amps, when so many prefer NOS American or British tubes? There must be some other factors involved here, besides the obvious lesser availability of said tubes (although I'm sure there were plenty of cheap RCAs available all those years back!). And the most obvious one, IMHO, must be that their entire amp circuit design; components; wiring etc. are likely to be in another league entirely, compared to my Feliks-Audio Elise and many of the other amps mentioned here previously...extremely good though they evidently are, lol!... I'm quite sure, therefore, that the A-S guys are in fact getting the Russian tubes to perform _way _beyond what most other people have been able to manage - otherwise they would never sell a single amp, to be sure! And we others are simply fortunate in being able to wring better performance out of our own machines by using far fewer alternative NOS tubes (especially British ones LOL!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 This is my own take on things, of course...trying to come to some kind of logical conclusion - I sincerely hope I can in fact shed more light on this from A-S themselves.
  
 However, I feel the most pertinent aspects are in fact as covered in the first part of the article concerned...ie. the whole reasoning behind their choice of the 6AS7G in the first place, regardless of whether American, British or Russian - as opposed to any other tube...
  
 CHEERS!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello h1 - 

There must be some special wiring/topology/components making supreme goodness of the Chinese 6SN7GT's in the A-S amp too, then, 'eh?

LOL :wink_face:

CHEERS!


----------



## Skylab

For the record - the 6AS7 is not still being manufactured. Don't confuse the mountains of Russian and Chinese military equivalents of this tube for new production. They aren't. There may be an essentially limitless supply from the perspective of audio needs, but no one is currently making the tube, at least at this juncture.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello h1 -
> 
> There must be some special wiring/topology/components making supreme goodness of the Chinese 6SN7GT's in the A-S amp too, then, 'eh?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi JV...I would imagine the 6SN7s provided stock are - as with most other new amps - purely as a (non-!) starter, knowing full well everyone will bin 'em and put in their own favourites LOL!!
  


skylab said:


> For the record - the 6AS7 is not still being manufactured. Don't confuse the mountains of Russian and Chinese military equivalents of this tube for new production. They aren't. There may be an essentially limitless supply from the perspective of audio needs, but no one is currently making the tube, at least at this juncture.


 
  
 Aaahhh, yes indeed Skylab....showing my age here, lol - my idea of "recent years"/"newer production" goes back a good way, alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## mordy

Hi Skylab,
  
 If I understand you correctly, nobody today manufactures tubes of the 6AS7 family? (6AS7G, 6H13C, 6N5PJ etc)
  
 The other question I have is: In audio applications, is the 6BL7 tube _in multiples_ better sounding than the 6AS7 family of tubes?


----------



## Skylab

That's correct. There is no one currently manufacturing any flavor of the 6AS7G. 

That said, it's hardly relevant for the small number of tubes that the current audio business requires, versus the mountains of Russian and Chinese NOS military tube stockpiles there are. One can still easily buy 100 tube cases of the very nice Russian 6H13C. 25 piece boxes run $150.


----------



## mordy

Thanks - Any comment on my second question?


----------



## Skylab

If your second question was also directed to me, I'm sorry but I can't answer. I've never heard one of these strapped 6BL7 configs. I will say that the 6BL7 is a very good sounding tube but I have only every heard it used one tube per channel in the more conventional manner. I do think the Sylvania 6BL7 was a little better sounding than the Sylvania 6AS7 in an amp I had years ago that was able to use both optimally. But when one tries to use one kind of tube in an amp designed for another kind of tube, it's very hard to extrapolate that to "this is a better tube". There are many factors at play.


----------



## mordy

It seems to me (and admittedly, my knowledge of electronics is minimal) that using two or three 6BL7/channel approximates the bias of the 6AS7 tubes, although the current draw is higher. If I understand correctly, people who have Glenn, Woo and Feliks amps report very good results with multiples of the 6BL7 compared to the 6AS7 type tubes.
  
 In other words, if an amp was designed to use 6AS7 tubes, the sound quality may benefit from using 6BL7 tubes, provided that the current demands are met.


----------



## leftside

hypnos1 said:


> Hi JV...I would imagine the 6SN7s provided stock are - as with most other new amps - purely as a (non-!) starter, knowing full well everyone will bin 'em and put in their own favourites LOL!!


 
 I'm not sure that's true. I know it's not true for Allnic and McIntosh.


----------



## maheeinfy

ru4music said:


> The 6BL7 tube is "plug & play" in the WA2 power tube socket drawing only 1.5 amps (the WA2 is capable of providing 3.5 amps.)  The single tube sounds great with my hd800 or hd650 headphones and I only suspect will sound better once my 2X adaptor arrives.



Awesome,thanks! Gonna try them soon


----------



## hypnos1

leftside said:


> I'm not sure that's true. I know it's not true for Allnic and McIntosh.


 
  
 Yes indeed leftside, there are certainly exceptions to the rule - I should have said 'a good many' amps that are within the reach of most ordinary folks' pockets, lol!


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi h1,
> ...


 

 The fact is there is really no other tube they can use that is available in large quantity's. maybe the 6C33C And has nothing to do with the SQ of this tube.
 The USA and British tubes cannot handle the high current the Russian ones can. US and British 6AS7 will blow up in A-S amps were cathode current
 can go over 3 amps.
 The 6AS7 is a fairly soso sounding tube that they have no choice but to use in there amps.   They were made fore voltage regulators not audio!!


----------



## maheeinfy

Is 6BL7GT preferable over 6BL7GTA? or both are equally good?


----------



## mordy

Hi m,
  
 In my limited experience with the 6BL7 tubes (I have some 25 different ones), I found that the I could not discern a difference between the GT and the GTA variants, as long as the tubes have the X (cross) plates and not the parallel plates (which are the older versions).
  
 The ones I like the best are X plates from the mid 50's - early 60's made by GE or Tung Sol (some TS were made by GE, but they may have possibly made their own as well ).
  
 The tubes need some 30-50 hours burn in to sound their best.


----------



## 3083joe

mordy said:


> Hi m,
> 
> In my limited experience with the 6BL7 tubes (I have some 25 different ones), I found that the I could not discern a difference between the GT and the GTA variants, as long as the tubes have the X (cross) plates and not the parallel plates (which are the older versions).
> 
> ...



I have been told the parallel or ladder shaped plates sound better but I cant agree (one have one set of these)
I have really like the silvania cross plate ones i think.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> The fact is there is really no other tube they can use that is available in large quantity's. maybe the 6C33C And has nothing to do with the SQ of this tube.
> The USA and British tubes cannot handle the high current the Russian ones can. US and British 6AS7 will blow up in A-S amps were cathode current
> can go over 3 amps.
> The 6AS7 is a fairly soso sounding tube that they have no choice but to use in there amps.   They were made fore voltage regulators not audio!!


 
  
 Hi Glenn.
  
 "Soso"?..."not audio"?...the 6AS7G/6080/5998 have been extremely popular tubes, used by DIY enthusiasts and a good many makers for a very long time...including yourself! - the 6BL7 appears hardly anywhere whatsoever in comparison, lol.
  
 I hardly think the following manufacturers also chose the 6AS7G because "they had no choice"...:
  
 Apex High-Fi Audio Teton...$5000
  

  
 Audio-Note Vindicator...starting at $3600
  

  
 Audio-Valve Baldur 70...$6000+ per pair

  

  
 The pedigree of this tube is unquestionable IMHO...and to those at whom this thread is actually aimed - "For 6AS7G Tube Rollers" - I recommend extensive web research on its undoubted (and proven) merits.


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> I have been told the parallel or ladder shaped plates sound better but I cant agree (one have one set of these)
> I have really like the silvania cross plate ones i think.


 
  
 My bias is I always go for the oldest tubes I can find. Very generally speaking, up until the early 1960's, R&D money was directed toward making vacuum tubes better and better. After all, at that time, tubes were state-of-the-art devices. However, by the late 1960's, R&D money had been redirected away from vacuum tubes to solid state. And rather than trying to make vacuum tubes better, the R&D objective became to manufacture them as cheaply as possible in order to keep all the old (read obsolete) tube gear running. And therefore, with respect to the 6BL7, my bias is 1950's and early 1960's production. Until and unless I hear wonderful things about later production, I will pass....
  
 To my knowledge, only Sylvania manufactured 6BL7GT with flat plates, and it appears that this was only for a few years, in the early 1950's. Of those of us who have rolled these early Sylvania, as well as the later X-plate Sylvania (as output tubes), most seem to prefer the later X plates. However, I have yet to try any Sylania GTAs, so I cannot comment on how they compare to the GTs.
  
 Further, I have yet to roll RCA, GE, Tung-Sol or Japanese-made 6BL7. However, I would suspect that there is more difference between production from different manufacturers, for example, GE and Sylvania, than there is between the GT and GTA by the same manufacturer.


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> My bias is I always go for the oldest tubes I can find. Very generally speaking, up until the early 1960's, R&D money was directed toward making vacuum tubes better and better. After all, at that time, tubes were state-of-the-art devices. However, by the late 1960's, R&D money had been redirected away from vacuum tubes to solid state. And rather than trying to make vacuum tubes better, the R&D objective became to manufacture them as cheaply as possible in order to keep all the old (read obsolete) tube gear running. And therefore, with respect to the 6BL7, my bias is 1950's and early 1960's production. Until and unless I hear wonderful things about later production, I will pass....
> 
> To my knowledge, only Sylvania manufactured 6BL7GT with flat plates, and it appears that this was only for a few years, in the early 1950's. Of those of us who have rolled these early Sylvania, as well as the later X-plate Sylvania (as output tubes), most seem to prefer the later X plates. However, I have yet to try any Sylania GTAs, so I cannot comment on how they compare to the GTs.
> 
> Further, I have yet to roll RCA, GE, Tung-Sol or Japanese-made 6BL7. However, I would suspect that there is more difference between production from different manufacturers, for example, GE and Sylvania, than there is between the GT and GTA by the same manufacturer.



I have tried both Sylvania types. Very Similar but seem to like the x plate better but not much 
Right now I'm running x plate quad rcas and they are nice. Slight rolled highs compared to Sylvania but that's good for my hd800 cans. IMO


----------



## vapman

Just got some really nice russian 6n30p's. Bass impact is amazing with these things. The Starlight sounds awesome with one in it. Damn!!


----------



## Skylab

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Glenn.
> 
> "Soso"?..."not audio"?...the 6AS7G/6080/5998 have been extremely popular tubes, used by DIY enthusiasts and a good many makers for a very long time...including yourself! - the 6BL7 appears hardly anywhere whatsoever in comparison, lol.
> 
> ...




Hey, I think the 6AS7G can sound good in audio, but Glenn is right. The 6AS7 wasn't designed as an audio tube, plain and simple. Read the data sheet. 

http://www.nj7p.org/Tubes/SQL/Tube_query.php?Type=6as7g

'Glass octal type used as a regulator tube in dc power supply units and in projection television booster scanning applications.' (Source ........................................ RCA DS 05/01/55)


----------



## hypnos1

skylab said:


> Hey, I think the 6AS7G can sound good in audio, but Glenn is right. The 6AS7 wasn't designed as an audio tube, plain and simple. Read the data sheet.
> 
> http://www.nj7p.org/Tubes/SQL/Tube_query.php?Type=6as7g
> 
> 'Glass octal type used as a regulator tube in dc power supply units and in projection television booster scanning applications.' (Source ........................................ RCA DS 05/01/55)


 
  
 Yes indeed Skylab...just didn't really think its initial purpose was particularly relevant here - these well-respected manufacturers surely made their decisions based on the tube's actual _performance?..._
 And I believe a fair few extremely good tubes used in audio were originally intended for other uses?


----------



## Skylab

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed Skylab...just didn't really think its initial purpose was particularly relevant here - these well-respected manufacturers surely made their decisions based on the tube's actual _performance?..._
> And I believe a fair few extremely good tubes used in audio were originally intended for other uses?




Yup, I agree totally. I was just pointing out that exact thing...that we are using tubes for audio that were intended for other purposes. That does not mean they cannot be very good for audio - in fact, many are, as you point out. The 6AS7 is a good tube for driving headphones in an OTL design, as it just so happens


----------



## attmci

3083joe said:


> Use nothing but GEC 6as7s in my wa22.
> Best sound of any power tube


 

 I saw you sold these at a "big" loss...........
  
 I still yet to believe a couple of cheap 6BL7 could beat them.


----------



## abvolt

I saw that as well but I've come to trust joe's opinion considering he's tried most every sought after tube available for the wa22 and has been right on the mark..Enjoy


----------



## whirlwind

I definitely would not be against the GEC 6AS7G dropping in price


----------



## 3083joe

attmci said:


> I saw you sold these at a "big" loss...........
> 
> I still yet to believe a couple of cheap 6BL7 could beat them.



Understand your thoughts but they have something the GEC was missing. (Have another set still, round base) but might just be the wa22 not sure. 
Still comparing. But I keep going back to the 6BL7
As for them being cheap somewhat yes but prices always change as different tubes are discovered. 
Look at the 6c8g TSRP
1-2 yrs ago could get them for nothing. Now they are a pretty Penny and I honestly don't care for them. 
My ecc35s are untouchable at this moment. 
Not even by the ecc32/33 to my ears.


----------



## JazzVinyl

3083joe said:


> Understand your thoughts but they have something the GEC was missing. (Have another set still, round base) but might just be the wa22 not sure.
> Still comparing. But I keep going back to the 6BL7
> As for them being cheap somewhat yes but prices always change as different tubes are discovered.
> Look at the 6c8g TSRP
> ...




Hello Joe...

Agreed, a depth, clarity and seperation of space that just isn't there via 6AS7 makes the 6BL7's zoom ahead in perceived sound quality...

Here is custom rig with (8) 6BL7's as powers (4x 6BL7 per 6AS7 socket 







I think 6AS7G sounds good, as you say there is something more you get with multi 6BL7 that just sounds better, to me.

Cheers...


----------



## adeadcrab

Edit: removed.


----------



## MIKELAP

I remember someone saying they were going to try the double 6BL7 adapter  with a WA2 or was it a WA22 so finally is there any clearance issues ?


----------



## 3083joe

mikelap said:


> I remember someone saying they were going to try the double 6BL7 adapter  with a WA2 or was it a WA22 so finally is there any clearance issues ?



No clearence issues in wa22 (adapter will swivel some) don't know about wa2


----------



## ru4music

mikelap said:


> I remember someone saying they were going to try the double 6BL7 adapter  with a WA2 or was it a WA22 so finally is there any clearance issues ?


 
  
  
 No issues, just posted in another thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/428570/woo-audio-amp-owner-unite/37065#post_12475471


----------



## Johnnysound

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello Joe...
> 
> Agreed, a depth, clarity and seperation of space that just isn't there via 6AS7 makes the 6BL7's zoom ahead in perceived sound quality...
> 
> ...


----------



## gibosi

I think it is worth noting that the 6BL7 is a small signal amplification tube similar to the 6DJ8 and 6SN7. As such, amplifying small signals, be they audio, video and/or radio frequency, with a very high degree of accuracy was paramount in the design of this tube. It is no accident that like the 6DJ8 and 6SN7, the 6BL7 was very commonly used as a video amplifier in televisions, where accuracy and fidelity were critical design factors.
  
 On the other hand, the 6AS7 family of tubes was designed for use as series voltage regulators in DC power supplies. In this capacity, high fidelity amplification of small signals was not a major design factor. Rather, high current and low voltage were absolutely necessary. And yes, the 6AS7 is very linear, but no more so than most other natural triodes, as opposed to triode-strapped tetrodes and pentodes. It is because it is a high-current natural triode that it so attractive to manufacturers of OTL gear.
  
 Further, the fact that the 6AS7 is very plentiful, especially the Russian variant, and very inexpensive, cannot be overlooked. Even if there might be better tubes, if they are not cheap and plentiful, it would be too impractical and expensive to use them in a mass-produced amp. And finally, a manufacturer cannot ignore the desires of their customers. They know that there is a strong and steady demand for a 6AS7-based OTL amp.
  
 The 6BL7 is simply not plentiful or cheap enough to use in a mass produced amp, especially since many more tubes are required. And outside of a few aficionados, there is simply no real demand for a 6BL7-based OTL.
  
 As always, my understandings and opinions... YMMV....


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 Thank you for your thoughtful summary re the 6BL7/6AS7 tubes.


----------



## Johnnysound

gibosi said:


> I think it is worth noting that the 6BL7 is a small signal amplification tube similar to the 6DJ8 and 6SN7. As such, amplifying small signals, be they audio, video and/or radio frequency, with a very high degree of accuracy was paramount in the design of this tube. It is no accident that like the 6DJ8 and 6SN7, the 6BL7 was very commonly used as a video amplifier in televisions, where accuracy and fidelity were critical design factors.
> 
> On the other hand, the 6AS7 family of tubes was designed for use as series voltage regulators in DC power supplies. In this capacity, high fidelity amplification of small signals was not a major design factor. Rather, high current and low voltage were absolutely necessary. And yes, the 6AS7 is very linear, but no more so than most other natural triodes, as opposed to triode-strapped tetrodes and pentodes. It is because it is a high-current natural triode that it so attractive to manufacturers of OTL gear.
> 
> ...




Thanks, Gibosi, very instructive. Hope can hear myself this kind of setup soon ! The 6bl7 looks like a heavy duty 6sn7, but it is a power tube, big difference. And a very unique one. I never had a 6bl7, so I cant comment, but just for fun, my experience with the 6sn7s as output tubes was really great, until I tried the 6AS7Gs (with external PS), a whole improvement in every sense. The 6sn7s sounded smaller, thinner, underpowered in comparison. 

The 6AS7G was designed for power regulation and to handle big power swings with stability and high precision in early electronic gear, military, TVs or even ancient computers. Very interesting the old spec sheets talking about the "pulse" capabilities of the tube. It is an evolution of an earlier audio triode tube, only better. So IMHO, this is not the case of a regulator adapted for audio, on the contrary, is a great audio tube in its DNA, used for other functions. Its outstanding linearity means that the incoming signal is amplified very accurately, with the very best s/n specs of any tube of its era, coupled with a strong current output to drive external devices such as speakers in OTL fashion. Since I was experimenting with a preamp, (and so only needing a small signal to the amps) I thought the 6AS7Gs would not make a great difference against my best 6SN7s , but I was totally wrong, of course. I even theorize that when the tubes were modernized over the years, and specialized for regulator duties with smaller envelopes (as in the 6080 family) they lost, sadly, most of the audio magic of the originals...

After listening for many hours to RCAs, Chathams and GEs, I confess that I am unable to reach a veredict. Maybe one day the very best would be the Chathams with its dark, big, seductive sound. The next day the RCAs will speak for themselves in a classic fashion, and the most fantastic soundstage, but next, the GEs will sing with a lighter, airy and beautiful touch. Chatham made and rebranded, most probably, almost identical tubes, but another sonic flavor entirely...


----------



## hpamdr

gibosi said:


> I think it is worth noting that the 6BL7 is a small signal amplification tube similar to the 6DJ8 and 6SN7. As such, amplifying small signals, be they audio, video and/or radio frequency, with a very high degree of accuracy was paramount in the design of this tube. It is no accident that like the 6DJ8 and 6SN7, the 6BL7 was very commonly used as a video amplifier in televisions, where accuracy and fidelity were critical design factors.
> 
> On the other hand, the 6AS7 family of tubes was designed for use as series voltage regulators in DC power supplies. In this capacity, high fidelity amplification of small signals was not a major design factor. Rather, high current and low voltage were absolutely necessary. And yes, the 6AS7 is very linear, but no more so than most other natural triodes, as opposed to triode-strapped tetrodes and pentodes. It is because it is a high-current natural triode that it so attractive to manufacturers of OTL gear.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Ken,
  
 Have you tested 6BX7GT and compared to 6BL7 ?
 From spec it seems less efficient but I've read in french forum some people using both tube as cathode follower to drive 845 tubes. (6SN7 driver + cathode follower 6BX7GT + 845 power ).


----------



## gibosi

Yes, I have run 6BX7's as output tubes in my Glenn, and they work fine. The major difference is the 6BX7 has a mu of 10, whereas, the 6BL7 has a mu of 15. However, in my Glenn, the difference in gain is negligible. Even so, you might not want to mix 6BL7 and 6BX7 in your adapters, But for sure, running four or six 6BX7s will perform just as good as four or six 6BL7s. Unfortunately, the supply of 6BX7 is not as plentiful as the 6BL7, so it can be more difficult to find a bunch of closely matched tubes.
  
 And to those of you who are running six 6BL7, I would encourage you to substitute them with six 6SN7.


----------



## Rossliew

gibosi said:


> And to those of you who are running six 6BL7, I would encourage you to substitute them with six 6SN7.


 
  
 Can our Glenn OTLs take six 6SN7s without issues?


----------



## gibosi

rossliew said:


> Can our Glenn OTLs take six 6SN7s without issues?


 
  
 Six 6SN7, or three per side, will draw 1.8 amps per socket. So any amp that can run a pair of 6AS7, which draw 2.5 amps per socket, can easily run six 6SN7.


----------



## hpamdr

gibosi said:


> Yes, I have run 6BX7's as output tubes in my Glenn, and they work fine. The major difference is the 6BX7 has a mu of 10, whereas, the 6BL7 has a mu of 15. However, in my Glenn, the difference in gain is negligible. Even so, you might not want to mix 6BL7 and 6BX7 in your adapters, But for sure, running four or six 6BX7s will perform just as good as four or six 6BL7s. Unfortunately, the supply of 6BX7 is not as plentiful as the 6BL7, so it can be more difficult to find 4 or 6 closely matched tubes.
> 
> And to those of you who are running six 6BL7, I would encourage you to substitute them with six 6SN7.


 
 In France, the supply of 6BL7 is also not that good, and 6BX7 are even more dificult to find. I continue to use 6080/6AS7G as the Elise cannot heat 4 6BL7GTA and all the driver I like.
 For now, single 6BL7 is not running as good as 6AS7G/6080 for me.


----------



## Rossliew

gibosi said:


> Six 6SN7, or three per side, will draw 1.8 amps per socket. So any amp that can run a pair of 6AS7, which draw 2.5 amps per socket, can easily run six 6SN7.


 
 You truly are a God-send to all of us tube rollers


----------



## gibosi

hpamdr said:


> In France, the supply of 6BL7 is also not that good, and 6BX7 are even more dificult to find. I continue to use 6080/6AS7G as the Elise cannot heat 4 6BL7GTA and all the driver I like.
> For now, single 6BL7 is not running as good as 6AS7G/6080 for me.


 
  
 A single 6BL7 per side simply can't move enough current. You need at least 2 per side, and 3 would be even better. But for sure, to do this with the Elise, or most other 6AS7-based OTL, an external heater power supply is necessary.


----------



## hpamdr

gibosi said:


> A single 6BL7 per side simply can't move enough current. You need at least 2 per side, and 3 would be even better. But for sure, to do this with the Elise, or most other 6AS7-based OTL, an external heater power supply is necessary.


 

 In fact, i'm reluctant to have an external box or a not protected tranformer side to the amp just to heat some tube.
 The best would be to change or add a internal one with cabinet extension or get an amplifier designed for such experiments.
  
 Also it is far mor easier to find  6080 or 6AS7 and 6H13C....


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> Six 6SN7, or three per side, will draw 1.8 amps per socket. So any amp that can run a pair of 6AS7, which draw 2.5 amps per socket, can easily run six 6SN7.



Think it will work on wa22?


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> Think it will work on wa22?


 
  
 Per this posting by MIKELAP
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/3345#post_12441983
  
 the WA22 can handle 3.0 amps per power tube socket. So yes, the WA22 can easily handle three 6SN7 (3 X 0.6 amps = 1.8 amps). In fact, it would appear that five 6SN7 (5 X 0.6 amps = 3.0 amps) per socket with a properly designed adapter might be OK. But for sure, three or four 6SN7 per socket would be fine.


----------



## ru4music

gibosi said:


> A single 6BL7 per side simply can't move enough current. You need at least 2 per side, and 3 would be even better. But for sure, to do this with the Elise, or most other 6AS7-based OTL, an external heater power supply is necessary.


 

 FWIW, in the Woo WA2 (OTL) with highly efficient headphones (i.e HD800) one 6BL7 tube per side is very sufficient.  In fact, the volume level in my listening sessions stays about the same as with my TS5998s.  Glorious sound and I even believe the quality of sound is better single tubed rather than dual tubed.


----------



## whirlwind

rossliew said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > Six 6SN7, or three per side, will draw 1.8 amps per socket. So any amp that can run a pair of 6AS7, which draw 2.5 amps per socket, can easily run six 6SN7.
> ...


 
 Absolutely, gibosi has a great knowledge of tubes


----------



## ru4music

gibosi said:


> Per this posting by MIKELAP
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/3345#post_12441983
> 
> the WA22 can handle 3.0 amps per power tube socket. So yes, the WA22 can easily handle three 6SN7 (3 X 0.6 amps = 1.8 amps). In fact, it would appear that five 6SN7 (5 X 0.6 amps = 3.0 amps) per socket with a properly designed adapter might be OK. But for sure, three or four 6SN7 per socket would be fine.


 

 Also (FWIW), keep in mind when comparing the 6BL7 to the 6SN7 that the 6BL7 has 4 times the plate current capacity (40 ma) as compared to the 9 ma capacity of the 6SN7.  So you'll need four 6SN7s to equal a single 6BL7 in terms of theoretical current output capacity. 
  
 I share this info because I believe it is incorrect to view the 6BL7 and the 6SN7 as similar tubes from a design perspective (YMMV.)


----------



## abvolt

Thanks for that info, I have to say that the 6bl7's sound so much better that any of the 6sn7's I've owned their's really not a comparison in the two tubes..Enjoy


----------



## ru4music

ru4music said:


> FWIW, in the Woo WA2 (OTL) with highly efficient headphones (i.e HD800) one 6BL7 tube per side is very sufficient.  In fact, the volume level in my listening sessions stays about the same as with my TS5998s.  Glorious sound and I even believe the quality of sound is better single tubed rather than dual tubed.


 

 I did some more tube rolling last night and I wanted to update that *I now prefer the dual tubes per channel *as opposed to the single tube.  It seems I needed a little more burn-in time for my NOS 6BL7s (better weight/ authority while slightly increasing the sound stage and overall presentation.)


----------



## 3083joe

ru4music said:


> I did some more tube rolling last night and I wanted to update that *I now prefer the dual tubes per channel* as opposed to the single tube.  It seems I needed a little more burn-in time for my NOS 6BL7s (better weight/ authority while slightly increasing the sound stage and overall presentation.)



Agree completely!!!


----------



## mordy

Same experience here with the Feliks amp - 4 x BL sounds better than 2 x BL - more of everything.
  
 I am experimenting with 2 x BL + 2 x tubes that draw less than 1A so that I can run my amp without external heating. So far very good results with Mazda 6N7G tubes, but not as good with the successor tubes 6N7GT tubes. The Mazda are ST type tubes (Coke bottle), and the 6N7GT are straight glass tubes.
  
 I am using the EL3N as driver tubes - a superb driver tube.


----------



## gibosi

As this is the 6AS7G tube rollers thread, I hope that one of the 6BL7 enthusiasts posting here will volunteer to create a new thread, "6BL7 tube rollers." I fear that we have been guilty of hi-jacking this thread..... 
  
 To those posting their observations regarding the 6BL7, I, and perhaps others, would like to know the manufacturer and date of the tubes you are running.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> As this is the 6AS7G tube rollers thread, I hope that one of the 6BL7 enthusiasts posting here will volunteer to create a new thread, "6BL7 tube rollers." I fear that we have been guilty of hi-jacking this thread.....
> 
> To those posting their observations regarding the 6BL7, I, and perhaps others, would like to know the manufacturer and date of the tubes you are running.


 

 Agree.
  
 I like this:
  
 Originally Posted by *UntilThen* 



 Again your assumption is wrong Suuup. C3G with 4x6BL7 is not under powered. There is not a question of it being underpowered here. It powered up as well as 6SN7 with 4x6BL7. C3G as drivers have ample power to drive the T1.

 I simply made the comment that C3G with 4x6BL7 sounded lean and detailed as compared to the lusher presentation of C3G with 2x5998 or 2xChatham 6AS7G.

 I also mentioned that it sounded closer to solid state than the other 2 combos. Soundstage is also narrower. This is the reason I do not think the 6BL7 sounded 'better' than 5998 or Chatham when paired with C3G as drivers. 

 Likewise in the 5 songs I heard, 6SN7 with 4x6BL7 sounded similar to the C3G pairing. I.e lean and defined and akin to solid state, with a narrower soundstage.

 Ultimately better depends on who listens to it. What their sound preferences are. There's no denying there are those who love a more solid state sound and equally there are those who prefer a lusher presentation of tubes.

 So when someone comes on and say that 6BL7 is 'better' than Chatham 6AS7G or Tung Sol 5998, you need to find out what is their sound preferences are. What source and headphones or speakers they are using. Different ears, gears and different taste. 

 Is one better than the other? The argument can get as old as solid state vs tubes. It may not be as drastic as this. To each their own. It's a big world and big enough for everyone to favor their own tubes.


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 Since I saw other people here using the 6BL7 as a _6AS7 substitute, _I did not feel that it was out of place to relate my own experience. I for one, would not want to hijack anything, much less this very interesting thread.
  
 It appears to me that the king of 6AS7 tubes is the GEC A1834 and variants, under different names and designations.The real question I have is if dual or triple 6BL7 will outperform the GEC. Since the price of the GEC is $400 and up for a pair, it is out of my league, and I would have to rely on others to make the comparison.
  
 Other top performers in the 6AS7 family are the 5998, 6550 and 7236 tubes, which also fetch very high prices today, not to speak of the WE 421A.
  
 The 6BL7 may provide an excellent low cost alternative to these 6AS7 type tubes, and may even better them in some aspects.
  
 As for who made the 6BL7 tubes, maybe a separate thread would be in order. It seems to me that only three US manufacturers made them: Sylvania, GE and RCA. There are lots of rebranded ones, and I have Tung Sol tubes with GE markings, but don't know if Tung Sol made their own at some point. (My guess is that Westinghouse labeled tubes were made by GE as well). I know that you like the earlier ones with the parallel plates, but I have better luck with the later ones that have X plates (cross plates). The tubes that sound best to me so far are the GE/TS tubes from the mid 50's to mid 60's. It could be that with multiple tubes the differences between brands are lessened - don't know at this point.
  
 Synergy is also very important, as always, and since these tubes in multiples are used as power tubes, they always have to be viewed in conjunction with the driver tubes they are used with. So a lot to learn and explore.....
  
 All the best,


----------



## maheeinfy

Can someone post a pic of how cross plates look like in a 6bl7 ?


----------



## hpamdr

maheeinfy said:


> Can someone post a pic of how cross plates look like in a 6bl7 ?


 
  

*X plates*​*Flat plates*​


----------



## maheeinfy

Few pages ago, I think someone posted about 6BL7 to 6AS7 adapter for about $15 each. Does anyone have pointers to where i can find those?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## ru4music

maheeinfy said:


> Few pages ago, I think someone posted about 6BL7 to 6AS7 adapter for about $15 each. Does anyone have pointers to where i can find those?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 Here's what I bought (happy with them):
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-6SN7-6BL7-TO-6AS7-tube-adapter-/201511879930?hash=item2eeb0b44fa:g:a90AAOSwuYVWpxwb
  
 They're cheaper with a plastic socket and no acrylic shield, but I still recommend the former.


----------



## 3083joe

ru4music said:


> Here's what I bought (happy with them):
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-6SN7-6BL7-TO-6AS7-tube-adapter-/201511879930?hash=item2eeb0b44fa:g:a90AAOSwuYVWpxwb
> 
> They're cheaper with a plastic socket and no acrylic shield, but I still recommend the former.



Same ones I got.


----------



## mordy

Hi m,
  
 Look for this item on eBay:
  
 1pc-Dual-Gold-plated-6BL7-TO-6AS7-tube-converter-adapter. It is made by Mrs Xu Ling and costs $22.50 + shipping.
  





  
 As you can see from the picture, it has acrylic laser cut plates screwed on to the circuit board. I asked if there was a cheaper version, and Mrs Xu sold me a pair of adapters without the acrylic plates for $15 each + shipping $7.50 for two.
  
 They work just fine - just remember not to touch the circuit board with the power on - you could get a nasty electric shock.
  
 You have to email her to ask for this cheaper version.
  
 Here is an action photo of the non acrylic adapter:


----------



## ru4music

mordy said:


> Hi m,
> 
> Look for this item on eBay:
> 
> ...


 
  
**NOTE:* Tube amp builders may not always sanction the use of these types of adapters, *AND, EVEN WITH THE AMP'S POWER OFF (unplugged) THERE MAY STILL BE HIGH VOLTAGE (e.g. ~250 VDC and above) PRESENT TO THE PINS (depending on the amp's design.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   *As always, be careful!


----------



## mordy

Hi ru4,
  
 Thank you for your reply. Handling the adapter with the power off in my Elise amp I have no problems touching it.


----------



## ru4music

mordy said:


> Hi ru4,
> 
> Thank you for your reply. Handling the adapter with the power off in my Elise amp I have no problems touching it.


 

 Most amps will/ should have a bleeder resistor network to discharge the PS filter capacitors so most people should be fine.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi Gibosi,
> 
> Since I saw other people here using the 6BL7 as a _6AS7 substitute, _I did not feel that it was out of place to relate my own experience. I for one, would not want to hijack anything, much less this very interesting thread.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Yes indeed...as gibosi says, the burgeoning interest in the 6BL7 would certainly be more appropriate in its own thread IMHO.
  
 I agree this tube would appear to be a possible, economic alternative to the uber-expensive 6AS7G variants et al, and which could appeal to a good many. However, I personally am a little concerned firstly about the reliability aspect, and secondly what Glenn pointed out re. the possible need for the use of grid-stopper resistors.
  
 There is very little historical info anywhere on results for extended use of the 6BL7 - which is not very encouraging, especially given the prolific DIY fraternity. One experiment did in fact confirm Glenn's point re. grid-stoppers, but as with the C3g it appears only certain set-ups may be prone to the kinds of problem that necessitate their use.
  
 Reliability has also been commented upon in such threads, but there's very little follow-up subsequently...things just go dead! More recently, JV stated 4 of his 14 tubes were bad from the off, and a member on the Glenn thread has "personally" had nothing but trouble with them - even two NOS tubes that shorted on him. Obviously anyone can encounter problems with tubes of any persuasion, but this may indicate MUCH further research and feedback are needed yet to ascertain a clearer picture of this tube - _especially_ when multiples are being used, as compared to just 2 powers.
  
 And so this kind of scrutiny certainly would be more appropriate in a dedicated thread, I should imagine...


----------



## 3083joe

mordy said:


> Hi m,
> 
> Look for this item on eBay:
> 
> ...



Nice but what are those front adapters?


----------



## maheeinfy

hypnos1 said:


> NOS tubes that shorted on him.


 
 This worries me..
  
 What happens when tubes short? does it damage the amp?


----------



## mordy

Hi 3083joe,
  
 The front adapters are for the EL3N tubes to be used in octal 6SN7 sockets. They are nick named bathtub adapters for obvious reasons - some people paint or shrink wrap them to get the color they want.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-EL3N-TO-6SN7-Tube-adapter-For-Elise-by-Feliks-Audio-/201486463405?hash=item2ee98771ad:g:7PgAAOSw3KFWcjQm
  




  
 Four quadruple happiness you can get dual adapters:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-EL3N-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/191769639044?hash=item2ca65c7884:g:-W4AAOSw5IJWggQB
  
 Some people use a quad as power tubes, but haven't tried it yet myself, but I am definitively planning to do it.
  




  
 The EL3N are my absolute favorite driver tubes. If you are interested, there is a good source in Holland that sells very nice NOS ones for around Euro21.- each + shipping (cheaper than Ebay).
  




  
 These are 10,000 hour tubes that run very cool and sound wonderful - draws 0.9A each.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 The 6BL7 tube has definitively been hidden under the radar, and not much information is available. I have some 25 tubes. Only one died on me, but that was because I dropped it. One or two of the older parallel plate tubes produced a messed up sound stage, but otherwise I only have positive experiences with the later X plates.
  
 Lucked out and stumbled across a great power tube combination of 2 x 6BL7 and 2 x 6N7 (pictured above in post #3443). This combo with the EL3N even won the approval of our senior reviewer UT and sounds terrific without the need for external power.
  
 Mrs Xu Ling makes a 6 x 6BL7 adapter for the Elise, and I have been told that it incorporates a grid resistor - don't think that the dual adapters need it. She also have triple 6BL7 adapters, but I don't know if they incorporate grid resistors.


----------



## Rossliew

mordy said:


> Hi 3083joe,
> 
> The front adapters are for the EL3N tubes to be used in octal 6SN7 sockets. They are nick named bathtub adapters for obvious reasons - some people paint or shrink wrap them to get the color they want.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Mordy, 
  
 Will the EL3N tube work as a direct substitute for the 6SN7 tube in our Glenn OTL amp? And if it does, can 2 tubes be used in place of a single 6SN7?


----------



## hypnos1

maheeinfy said:


> This worries me..
> 
> What happens when tubes short? does it damage the amp?


 
  
 Hi maheeinfy.
  
 Power tube shorts are not good news and can happen to any tube, if one is unlucky. It would appear the extent of the damage is rather unpredictable... depending on the cause, and the level of circuit protection within the amp. The sudden, "catastrophic" kind typified by extremely bright "arcing" can damage other amp components, and certainly headphones/speakers...and your eardrums won't be too happy either, lol!!...(just one reason not to leave a tube amp unattended - if you're lucky, you may just notice things beginning to go downhill before disaster strikes...like bad distortion and/or much brighter glows than normal within the tube).
  
 As I mentioned, this is an unfortunate downside of tubes in general - but luckily a not too frequent one! Only time will tell if the 6BL7 is any more prone to this - or other problems - than others.
 This tube appears to run VERY hot...and high heat is no friend to a tube's susceptibility. But once again, I personally would want to see much more long-term feedback from multiple users of different set-ups before feeling confident...others will differ of course, which is fair enough...we make our own choices.
  


mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> The 6BL7 tube has definitively been hidden under the radar, and not much information is available. I have some 25 tubes. Only one died on me, but that was because I dropped it. One or two of the older parallel plate tubes produced a messed up sound stage, but otherwise I only have positive experiences with the later X plates.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi m.
  
 I'm really glad you have found your tubes to be OK. Are they all NOS, or do they seem to have a good few hours on them already? As I mentioned above, there isn't much history of long-term use/performance, which concerns me personally - especially if 6 of them are sitting there at the back! I just hope my concerns prove simple paranoia in the long term, lol!


----------



## mordy

Hi R,

 I cannot tell you if it will work in the Glenn OTL amp since I am not familiar with it. The 6SN7 draws 0.6A and the EL3N draws 0.9A. If the amp can use driver tubes that draw 1.8A it should not be a problem. A quad of EL3N would draw 3.6A which possibly is beyond the design parameters for driver tubes in this amp. You would have to check with the manufacturer if this is possible.

 In the Elise amp we are using the EL3N as a direct substitute for the 6SN7 tube. I do not see the need for a dual EL3N as a driver since the results are so good.

 The dual EL3N have been used as power tubes in the Elise with the same EL3N as drivers with very good results from what I have read. There are definitively sonic benefits from using certain dual power tubes, with greater drive,power and authority.

 Personally, I have gotten excellent results from using dual 6BL7 power tubes. At this point I am very impressed, to put it mildly, by a dual set-up of 6BL7 and 6N7 power tubes. These two tubes draw 2.3A so they are compatible with any amp that uses 6AS7/6080 power tubes which draw 2.5A.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Haven't taken the leap to 6 x BL tubes yet. All my tubes were sourced from the eBay bargain bins - don't know if they are new or used. My yard stick if the tube is new is if it changes in sound over time lol. Not one of them came with an original box - you get the idea....
  
 The 6BL7 runs hot. It seems to me that after burn in they run cooler, but not 100% sure of this. On the other hand the 6080 tube runs very hot, and I do not hear any complaints from the many people using them.
  
 A simple way to have the amp run cooler with inherently hot running tubes is to use an inexpensive socket saver, which acts as an insulator, as well as protecting the amp socket from excessive wear. The dual adapter will act like this by design.
  
 At this time I am mesmerized by the 6BL7/6N7 combination that is sounding better and better - must be that my 1942 6N7 metal tubes are new, and are burning in.


----------



## 3083joe

mordy said:


> Hi m,
> 
> Look for this item on eBay:
> 
> ...



Question. 
Can they be used on wa22?


----------



## 3083joe

Sooooooo
Tempted to sell my round brown base GEC 6as7


----------



## maheeinfy

hypnos1 said:


> Hi maheeinfy.
> 
> Power tube shorts are not good news and can happen to any tube, if one is unlucky. It would appear the extent of the damage is rather unpredictable... depending on the cause, and the level of circuit protection within the amp. The sudden, "catastrophic" kind typified by extremely bright "arcing" can damage other amp components, and certainly headphones/speakers...and your eardrums won't be too happy either, lol!!...(just one reason not to leave a tube amp unattended - if you're lucky, you may just notice things beginning to go downhill before disaster strikes...like bad distortion and/or much brighter glows than normal within the tube).
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, 
 I have noticed that some of the power tubes i rolled glow differently. For example, when i had a pair of 6AS7G on the amp, one of them glows a lot, and the other not so much.
  
 However i did not notice any popping sounds, distortion etc, so i guess this is normal


----------



## mordy

Hi m,
  
 This is normal as you state, and it has to do with how the internals were assembled - sometimes there is a difference in how the heater wires are exposed.
  
 If the tubes sound the same there is nothing to worry about.
  
 Some tubes only have spectacular tube glow to advocate for themselves, and at other times tubes with very faint glow sound splendid.


----------



## whirlwind

deleted


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> Hi G,
> 
> I have some 25 6BL7 tubes. Many of them are rebranded, but there are only a few manufacturers.
> 
> ...




Very helpful. I'm moving to 6BL7's as well. Probably just stick with one per socket. I don't like the look of the adapters. I'm impressed with the sound quality improvement on 6080 / 6AS7G.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi G,
> ...


 
 I have  been using only 1 -6BL7 per channel for the past couple of weeks and they sound good, and is within the 3A /channel MAX.for power tubes  I think for the extra limited  benefits 2 -6BL7 /channel brings ill play it safe .I also dont like the look of the adapters  but thats me ..


----------



## 3083joe

mikelap said:


> I have  been using only 1 -6BL7 per channel for the past couple of weeks and they sound good, and is within the 3A /channel MAX.for power tubes  I think for the extra limited  benefits 2 -6BL7 /channel brings ill play it safe .I also dont like the look of the adapters  but thats me ..


 

 2 are fine, ran my amp for 8 + hours with them testerday and didn't get warm at all (2 is only 3A in wa22)


----------



## maheeinfy

Been wondering if there is a reason why 6BL7 is not recommended by amp makers like Wooaudio.
  
 I had emailed them asking why this tube is not recommended, but did not get any response.


----------



## MIKELAP

3083joe said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > I have  been using only 1 -6BL7 per channel for the past couple of weeks and they sound good, and is within the 3A /channel MAX.for power tubes  I think for the extra limited  benefits 2 -6BL7 /channel brings ill play it safe .I also dont like the look of the adapters  but thats me ..
> ...


 
 WA22 is rated at 3A/channel for power tubes its cutting it close .I forgot i had sent Woo an email regarding this but never got a reply ill send another one just to make sure ill let you guys know what they say


----------



## 3083joe

Mike you have a p.m.


----------



## mordy

One reason why manufacturers are not using the 6BL7 is because it is not available in large lots like new production tubes or Russian tubes. In addition, how much can you charge for a 6BL7 upgrade?
   
There is no bragging factor involved - "here are my $2000 Eltaka tubes" - wait till you hear them!

  
 vs "Here are my $6 6BL7 tubes - wait till you hear them!
  
 Have fun!


----------



## MIKELAP

maheeinfy said:


> Been wondering if there is a reason why 6BL7 is not recommended by amp makers like Wooaudio.
> 
> I had emailed them asking why this tube is not recommended, but did not get any response.


 
 Ok , me to i sent an email and never got a response i just sent another one because i want to know its simple as that .They usually always answer


----------



## 3083joe

I feel people are a shamed to say a cheap -50 pair of tubes can sound as good as they do, but thats how it is in this game. give it 2-5 yrs everyone will want them


----------



## mordy

Hi 3083joe,
  
 Problem is, if that happens in a couple of years, the price will be up there as well lol......
  
 Meanwhile, did somebody else try the 6BL7/6N7 combo?


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> Hi 3083joe,
> 
> Problem is, if that happens in a couple of years, the price will be up there as well lol......
> 
> Meanwhile, did somebody else try the 6BL7/6N7 combo?


 

 Can a 6N7 be used in a 6080/6AS7G circuit?
  
 Has anyone tried the 6BX7 version. There were a few nice ones for sale.
  
 What else can be used in the Woo WA22 6080 circuit?


----------



## Mechans1

I really can't agree with the prevailing notion that an amp maker would not want to use inexpensive easily available tubes.  How many amps have you seen with 6SN7s and 6AS7Gs etc.  The lack of new production tubes is an obvious problem.  They just wouldn't have a reliable stock of unused tubes to use, that can easily be replaced if that becomes an issue.  I would go so far as to say that expensive and rare tube requirements would be a turn off to prospective amp buyers.
 I and I see many of you roll our tubes, that is fun and adds to the hobby. The tubes I use are generally just NOS versions or near equal versions of what the amp is made for.  The only one I use that has no set  stock tube is the 1217 Ember, (it is a 12AU7 kinda that's what it comes with).  I congratulate those who are more adventuresome and find electrical near equivalents to try.


----------



## 2359glenn

badas said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi 3083joe,
> ...


 

 The 6N7 could work in your amp but will need a adapter


----------



## mordy

The 6BX7 is similar to the 6BL7 but has lower gain ( multiplication factor 10) - the few I tried did not sound as good as the 6BL7 ( multiplication factor 15) in my amp.
  
 As always YMMV....
  
 The adapter for the 6N7 is the same as ECC31 to 6SN7 - you may have these adapters already.


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> The 6BX7 is similar to the 6BL7 but has lower gain ( multiplication factor 10) - the few I tried did not sound as good as the 6BL7 ( multiplication factor 15) in my amp.
> 
> As always YMMV....
> 
> The adapter for the 6N7 is the same as ECC31 to 6SN7 - you may have these adapters already.


 
  
 This could be a good thing for me. I have the WA22 with the stepped volume control. I bloody hate the stepped control. It is one thing I would like to change. At the moment with the 6BL7 my volume is only up 3 steps (probably only 20%). 4 steps is too loud. 2 steps too quiet. I like having the dial higher as it gives more range. You can have a few steps that are close in volume instead of too loud, too quiet or close to okay.
  
 So the lower gain 6BX7 could be just the ticket. Seems to be of a similar construction (plates and micras) to the 6BL7 so I would guess sound could be close.


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> This could be a good thing for me. I have the WA22 with the stepped volume control. I bloody hate the stepped control. It is one thing I would like to change. At the moment with the 6BL7 my volume is only up 3 steps (probably only 20%). 4 steps is too loud. 2 steps too quiet. I like having the dial higher as it gives more range. You can have a few steps that are close in volume instead of too loud, too quiet or close to okay.
> 
> So the lower gain 6BX7 could be just the ticket. Seems to be of a similar construction (plates and micras) to the 6BL7 so I would guess sound could be close.



So the ecc31 adapters work for 6bx7???!!


----------



## Badas

3083joe said:


> So the ecc31 adapters work for 6bx7???!!


 

 I don't think you need one for the WA22. They are the similar to the 6BL7. Can someone confirm this? I was about to go on a set of 6BX7's.
  
 He was talking about the 6N7 needing an adapter I think.


----------



## gibosi

3083joe said:


> So the ecc31 adapters work for 6bx7???!!


 
  
 As Badas notes, the 6BL7 and 6BX7 have the same pinout, which is the same as the 6SN7 and 6AS7. And it is the 6N7 that has the same pinout as the ECC31.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> 3083joe said:
> 
> 
> > So the ecc31 adapters work for 6bx7???!!
> ...


 
 The 6N7 uses the ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter. .mordy tried the 6BX7 he says it is similar to the 6BL7 but has lower gain and doesnt sound as good as the 6BL7


----------



## abvolt

I will say I'm really enjoying the 6bl7 very much it has excellent sq..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I will say I'm really enjoying the 6bl7 very much it has excellent sq..


 

 Yeah. It is buzzing me out how good the little tube is. I haven't been this excited about a tube for a while.


----------



## abvolt

It amazes me on how good this tube really is. I'm currently comparing it to my favorites the ts 5998's and I'm still undecided but they are very close and I mean very close. Hopefully the 5998's will come on top cuz there cost is well many many times more & I have 3 pair...Enjoy


----------



## mordy

Shhhh Ab - the price will go up lol....
  
 Seriously, are you running double or quad 6BL7? In my amp (Elise) I found 2 x BL good, but 4 x BL excellent. However, some people report very good results with just two, so it may be dependent on the amp you are using. In addition, not all amps can take 6A as powers which necessitates external power.
  
 It is not so difficult to arrange, but doesn't look as nice with all the wires and the power supply/voltage regulator.
  
 The 6BL7 blends well with certain tubes, and it is possible to stay within the 2.5A draw/channel of the 6AS7 family, using four tubes as powers. So far, I have good to excellent results with 6BL7 + 6N7G or 6N7 (the 6N7G is a Coke bottle shaped tube, the 6N7 is a metal tube). For some reason I did not have good results using the 6N7GT, This tube is supposed to be similar to the 6N7G but with a straight glass envelope. These three tubes all need adapters to work in sockets designed for 6SN7 tubes and the like.
  
 The above three tubes draw 0.8A. 1.5A+0.8A=2.3A (compared to 2.5A for the 6AS7/6080.
  
 I am sure that people are going to discover other very good sounding combinations with the 6BL7 as one of the ingredients, and also staying within the current draw parameters to avoid having to use external heating.
  
 Let me see, what do I have that draws 1A or less that sounds good? Oh yes - this:





  
 Here is our UN assembly: Holland, USA and Germany. Another (very fragile) metal covered tube - the mighty Siemens C3gS.
  
 Initial impression (it is past my bed time): Higher gain than the 6N7, analytical, strong bass; sounds good. More tomorrow....
  
 Have fun!


----------



## Badas

I have a set of 6BX7's coming. Same plate structure "X" as the 6BL7's I have at the moment.
  
 I will compare and give my thoughts when they arrive.
 I'm looking forward to less gain.


----------



## mourip

I have an old school SinglePower Extreme that has been updated to eliminate all of the original design issues discussed here a few years back. It has a new power transformer capable of 6.3 volts at 10 amps and has a 25 amp rectifier.
  
 Currently I am using a 7N7 with an adapter and two Tungsol 5998's.
  
 Do you think that I could replace the 5998's with 6BL7/6BX7's?


----------



## gibosi

mourip said:


> I have an old school SinglePower Extreme that has been updated to eliminate all of the original design issues discussed here a few years back. It has a new power transformer capable of 6.3 volts at 10 amps and has a 25 amp rectifier.
> 
> Currently I am using a 7N7 with an adapter and two Tungsol 5998's.
> 
> Do you think that I could replace the 5998's with 6BL7/6BX7's?


 
  
 Two 6BL7's per output socket, for a total of 4, will draw 6 amps, and one 7N7 draws 0.6 amps, so a 10 amp transformer is more than adequate. And in fact, you could run three 6BL7's per output socket, for a total of 6, and the 7N7 for a total of 9.6 amps. So if you do in fact have 10 amps. you are good to go.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> I have a set of 6BX7's coming. Same plate structure "X" as the 6BL7's I have at the moment.
> 
> I will compare and give my thoughts when they arrive.
> I'm looking forward to less gain.



Very curious to know your thoughts


----------



## abvolt

I've been listening to a pair of sylvania 6bl7 flat plate just switched to a pair of ge's with the other style plate not sure what it's called, I can't seem to tell much difference in sq in the two. anyone else notice this..


----------



## mourip

gibosi said:


> Two 6BL7's per output socket, for a total of 4, will draw 6 amps, and one 7N7 draws 0.6 amps, so a 10 amp transformer is more than adequate. And in fact, you could run three 6BL7's per output socket, for a total of 6, and the 7N7 for a total of 9.6 amps. So if you do in fact have 10 amps. you are good to go.
> 
> Cheers,


 
 Thanks. Appreciated!
  
 Couple more newbie questions...
  
 These are dual triode and pin compatable?
  
 Is there a reason I would want to use two to replace one 5998? More power? Lower output impedance? More current capability?


----------



## 3083joe

mourip said:


> Thanks. Appreciated!
> 
> Couple more newbie questions...
> 
> ...



They just sound good.


----------



## 3083joe

abvolt said:


> I've been listening to a pair of sylvania 6bl7 flat plate just switched to a pair of ge's with the other style plate not sure what it's called, I can't seem to tell much difference in sq in the two. anyone else notice this..



Not really. Closer match better sound in my experience


----------



## gibosi

abvolt said:


> I've been listening to a pair of sylvania 6bl7 flat plate just switched to a pair of ge's with the other style plate not sure what it's called, I can't seem to tell much difference in sq in the two. anyone else notice this..


 
  
 I have a pair of Sylvania flat-plates and a later pair of Sylvania X-plates. The major difference I hear is in the mid-range, especially vocals. As another Glenn owner put it, vocals with the flat-plates seem to have a bit of a nasal quality, whereas, vocals with the the later X-plates sound a bit more natural to my ears. But this is pretty subtle, and otherwise, I think they sound very similar....


----------



## gibosi

mourip said:


> Thanks. Appreciated!
> 
> Couple more newbie questions...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, the 6BL7 is pin compatible with the 5998, 6AS7 and 6SN7...
  
 The major difference between the 6BL7 and 5998, when used as a power tube, is current. It takes two to three 6BL7s to effectively move as much current as one 5998. Thus, most folks find that one 6BL7 just doesn't have the same bass power and drive as a 5998. Two do a much better job. And if your amp can handle it, three are even better.


----------



## abvolt

Awesome thanks..


----------



## thecrow

3083joe said:


> Agree completely!!!


So how do these compare to the Gec 6as7g (and tung sol 5998)?


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I've been listening to a pair of sylvania 6bl7 flat plate just switched to a pair of ge's with the other style plate not sure what it's called, I can't seem to tell much difference in sq in the two. anyone else notice this..




I just recieved a set of flat plates today. They will go in my amp in the next few days.


----------



## gibosi

thecrow said:


> So how do these compare to the Gec 6as7g (and tung sol 5998)?


 
  
 It is very hard for me to compare these as generally, the 6AS7 has a very different sonic signature than a 6BL7. And what makes it even more difficult is GEC and Chatham did not manufacture the 6BL7, so we can't make that comparison. And further, I am most familiar with Sylvania 6BL7 and unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, Sylvania did not manufacture the 6AS7. 
  
 However, there is a very well-written and informative review in Tweak-Fi of a six 6BL7 Glenn OTL that does a pretty good job of describing the essential sonic differences between the 6AS7 and 6BL7.
  
 http://www.tweak-fi.com/apps/blog/show/42754587-building-a-reference-system-part-2-glenn-s-headphone-amplifier


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> thecrow said:
> 
> 
> > So how do these compare to the Gec 6as7g (and tung sol 5998)?
> ...


 
 I have tried four Chatham 6AS7 tubes.....I sit here wondering what four 5998 would sound like....I have four to try.......have you tried that, gibosi ?


----------



## gibosi

whirlwind said:


> I have tried four Chatham 6AS7 tubes.....I sit here wondering what four 5998 would sound like....I have four to try.......have you tried that, gibosi ?


 
  
 Too many tubes... not enough time... lol.
  
 (Caution: You need an amp that can provide at least 11 amps to heat four 6AS7s plus a driver to do what Whirlwind is suggesting. Be careful!)
  
 No, I haven't tried four 5998's yet... And I also want to try four GEC 6AS7s, of course! And in the back of my mind, I keep thinking that two GEC 6080s and two Bendix slotted graphite 6080s, one on each side, might be interesting to try.... Someday... lol


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I have tried four Chatham 6AS7 tubes.....I sit here wondering what four 5998 would sound like....I have four to try.......have you tried that, gibosi ?
> ...


 
 Thanks gibosi......I need to sneak into your tube inventory


----------



## thecrow

gibosi said:


> It is very hard for me to compare these as generally, the 6AS7 has a very different sonic signature than a 6BL7. And what makes it even more difficult is GEC and Chatham did not manufacture the 6BL7, so we can't make that comparison. And further, I am most familiar with Sylvania 6BL7 and unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, Sylvania did not manufacture the 6AS7.
> 
> However, there is a very well-written and informative review in Tweak-Fi of a six 6BL7 Glenn OTL that does a pretty good job of describing the essential sonic differences between the 6AS7 and 6BL7.
> 
> http://www.tweak-fi.com/apps/blog/show/42754587-building-a-reference-system-part-2-glenn-s-headphone-amplifier


Thanks for that. 

I'm not sure how accurate my idea is but grabbing what I could from that post has me thinking that when comparing them to standard or decent 6as7g (eg tung sol 5998) the Gec 6as7g and 6bl7 seem quite similar to what they bring/add. Including an extension of the upper end and being similar to solid state amps in some characteristics.


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> I've been listening to a pair of sylvania 6bl7 flat plate just switched to a pair of ge's with the other style plate not sure what it's called, I can't seem to tell much difference in sq in the two. anyone else notice this..









Okay I can hear a difference between the flat plate and X plate. It is the mid-range is smoother on the flat. More forward and noticeable. I like the flat better. Agreed tho they are so close that either are fine.


----------



## Badas

thecrow said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> I'm not sure how accurate my idea is but grabbing what I could from that post has me thinking that when comparing them to standard or decent 6as7g (eg tung sol 5998) the Gec 6as7g and 6bl7 seem quite similar to what they bring/add. Including an extension of the upper end and being similar to solid state amps in some characteristics.




I don't own the GEC 6AS7 but I do own the 6080 version (which many say are similar to the 6AS7). The 6BL7 is nothing like the GEC6080. 
I don't like the GEC6080 and it was quickly removed from my amp. So far away from my preferred sound.


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> I don't like the GEC6080 and it was quickly removed from my amp.




Sounds like you never gave the valve a fair chance.


----------



## u2u2

oskari said:


> Sounds like you never gave the valve a fair chance.




I am not as adventurous as you gents in trying different tubes but so far the GEC6080 is my favourite WA22 power tube. I have been trying to get backups to my set for several weeks. Sadly the post office has turned into a black hole sucking shipments in never to be seen again. Now trying the courier route. The set I have took about fifety hours to really shine. If Badas were to send me his GEC6080 sets I would put a few hundred hours on them as a friendly gesture. Save him the trouble of burning them in. He might like their sound signature after that...


----------



## Badas

oskari said:


> Sounds like you never gave the valve a fair chance.




No point. I know what I like and it wasn't GEC. It was too SS sounding. What is the point? Just buy a SS amp and then forget about tubes. I like my tubes to sound like tubes. 

I'm not a fan of many highly regarded tubes as they have the SS sound. I have the Tung-Sol 7236 and Bendix 6080 graphite plates as well. Disregarded them also. 

I found the GEC and Thompson was very close to each other. Thompson should get more love from the SS tube crowd.


----------



## JamieMcC

GEC solid state


----------



## Badas

jamiemcc said:


> GEC solid state




Yip. Not full sounding. Not much warmth. Very neutral. 

I may try again one day. Tubes are not going anywhere.


----------



## Oskari

badas said:


> What is the point?




Perhaps the point is to avoid jumping to conclusions. :rolleyes:

BTW, it's _Thomson_ after a certain English-born American.


----------



## Badas

oskari said:


> Perhaps the point is to avoid jumping to conclusions. :rolleyes:




What do you mean by that?  I don't have to like a SS sounding tube do I?


----------



## abvolt

badas said:


> Okay I can hear a difference between the flat plate and X plate. It is the mid-range is smoother on the flat. More forward and noticeable. I like the flat better. Agreed tho they are so close that either are fine.


 
  
 I went back and listened, I'd agree the flat plates do have better mids, Thanks...Enjoy


----------



## gibosi

abvolt said:


> I went back and listened, I'd agree the flat plates do have better mids, Thanks...Enjoy


 
  
 In my opinion, the "smoother", flat-plate Sylvania 6BL7GT go very well with brighter drivers, such as the Siemens C3g or the GEC/M-OV B36. But if I am using a more subdued driver, such as the Sylvania 6SN7W or the Mullard ECC31, vocals seem to have a slightly nasal quality (to my ears anyway), and thus with these drivers, I prefer the later three-mica X-plate Sylvania.
  
 As always, YMMV


----------



## 3083joe

thecrow said:


> So how do these compare to the Gec 6as7g (and tung sol 5998)?



Didn't really care for 5998s 
I sold my backup pair of GEC s if that tells you anything. 
Double 6bl7 ecc35 and tak274B with hd800 S is the perfect combo for my ears.


----------



## 3083joe

Try mixing the flat plates with x plates on dual adapter!


----------



## mordy

The whole thing of mixing different power tubes is a different ball game. Cannot figure out what will work well or not, so I am just trying various combinations, using what I have sitting around - trial and error. It could also be that the tube combination is specific to the amp you are using.
  
 At the moment I only have dual power adapters and not triple.
  
 Using EL3N as drivers: What works well for me are the 6N7 and 6N7G tubes together with the 6BL7.
  
 Tried using the 6N7GT tube, which should be the same as the the 6N7 and 6N7G, but it did not pair well.
  
 Tried the well regarded 6N23P (6DJ8 family) and the 6H6p - forget it; very bad hum.
  
 All the above tubes are together less than 2.5A so present no problems for an amp designed for one pair of 6AS7/6080.
  
 The 6BL7 and 6N7 combination  is delicious and certainly suits my frugal nature - paid less $3 each for my 1943/43 6N7 tubes. Even the ECC31 to 6SN7 adapters are available at a low price from Suzier. ($13.16 for a pair incl shipping)


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> The whole thing of mixing different power tubes is a different ball game. Cannot figure out what will work well or not, so I am just trying various combinations, using what I have sitting around - trial and error. It could also be that the tube combination is specific to the amp you are using.
> 
> At the moment I only have dual power adapters and not triple.
> 
> ...


 

 Can just one 6N7 be used in the Woo WA22 power socket?


----------



## 2359glenn

badas said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > The whole thing of mixing different power tubes is a different ball game. Cannot figure out what will work well or not, so I am just trying various combinations, using what I have sitting around - trial and error. It could also be that the tube combination is specific to the amp you are using.
> ...


 

 Yes


----------



## Badas

2359glenn said:


> Yes


 

 Excellent. I will give it a go then. Much difference in gain? Say between a 6AS7G?
 I've got plenty of scope. Highest I ever get is 11'Oclock.


----------



## Badas

Are 6N7 nice sounding tubes? Are they similar to 6BL7?


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> Excellent. I will give it a go then. Much difference in gain? Say between a 6AS7G?
> I've got plenty of scope. Highest I ever get is 11'Oclock.


 
  
 The 6N7 (6N7 = metal can, 6N7G = glass coke bottle, 6N7GT = straight-sided glass bottle) has an amplification factor of 35. And the heater draws 0.8 amps.
  
 The 6BL7GT has an amplification factor of 15.
  
 And the 6AS7 has an amplification factor of 2.
  
 Also, for comparison, it is 20 for a 6SN7 and 33 for a 6DJ8.


----------



## mordy

As always, YMMV - different amps and different equipment may sound different with the same tube.
  
 I did not care too much about the 6N7 as a single tube, but together with the 6BL7 it makes my amp sing. Again, I am using my amp as a preamp and listening through speakers, and not headphones.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> The 6N7 (6N7 = metal can, 6N7G = glass coke bottle, 6N7GT = straight-sided glass bottle) has an amplification factor of 35. And the heater draws 0.8 amps.
> 
> The 6BL7GT has an amplification factor of 15.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Excellent info. Thanks.
  
 I don't really understand amplification factor. Does that mean the 6N7 at 35 will produce roughly twice the volume of the 6BL7 at 15?


mordy said:


> As always, YMMV - different amps and different equipment may sound different with the same tube.
> 
> I did not care too much about the 6N7 as a single tube, but together with the 6BL7 it makes my amp sing. Again, I am using my amp as a preamp and listening through speakers, and not headphones.


 
  
 Thanks for the mini review. 6N7 is cheap enough. I might as well give a set a go.


----------



## gibosi

As I understand it, an amplification factor of 35 means that the level of the signal taken off the plate is 35 times the level on the grid. However, the actual "gain" is very dependent on the circuit the tube is used in, and therefore, one cannot simply conclude that rolling these tubes into an amp will increase the output level of the amp 35 times....
  
 To provide a little more background on the 6N7...
  
 Electrically, the 6N7 can be considered the American equivalent of the ECC31. They have the same pinout and both were designed to operate in push-pull Class B2 circuits. And in fact, during WWII, Mullard labeled ECC31 as 6N7G to be used as replacements in American equipment.


----------



## 3083joe

2359glenn said:


> Yes



Glenn will the EL3N with the adapter work in the wa22?


----------



## gibosi

As a driver? Or as an output tube? I certainly don't know but I suspect that it likely depends on how similar the Elise and WA22 are...
  
 The EL3N is a single pentode. So the adapter must convert the pentode into a single triode, and then redirect the pins to allow it to operate in a double triode circuit. This is very similar to how a pair of C3g is used (as drivers) in the Elise...


----------



## 3083joe

gibosi said:


> As a driver? Or as an output tube? I certainly don't know but I suspect that it likely depends on how similar the Elise and WA22 are...
> 
> The EL3N is a single pentode. So the adapter must convert the pentode into a single triode, and then redirect the pins to allow it to operate in a double triode circuit. This is very similar to how a pair of C3g is used (as drivers) in the Elise...



Yeah. I feel like someone here has been using them. Or on the woo audio thread.


----------



## ru4music

gibosi said:


> As a driver? Or as an output tube? I certainly don't know but I suspect that it likely depends on how similar the Elise and WA22 are...
> 
> *The EL3N is a single pentode. So the adapter must convert the pentode into a single triode, and then redirect the pins to allow it to operate in a double triode circuit. This is very similar to how a pair of C3g is used (as drivers) in the Elise...*


 
 Wow!  These kind of configuration changes are scary from a low level engineering/ design stand point.  Make sure the effects of Miller and grid-to-plate (etc.) capacitance changes are considered!  The tubes may work well initially, but, due to "grid leakage" currents etc. (from the design change) tube life and other components can be affected.  Heater current capability does not guarantee an ideal scenario.  YMMV


----------



## leftside

3083joe said:


> Yeah. I feel like someone here has been using them. Or on the woo audio thread.


 
 I use these Joe on my WA22 with the Mullard ECC31's:
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/201408123468
  
 Just remember to use the adapters before using these tubes  They are really nice tubes, but I still prefer the ECC32/33/35.


----------



## vapman

Is anyone here running a 6N7 or similar in a Garage 1217 design? I'm looking to upgrade mine with one.


----------



## gibosi

leftside said:


> Just remember to use the adapters before using these tubes  They are really nice tubes, but I still prefer the ECC32/33/35.


 
  
 This is interesting...  The ECC31 and ECC32 are absolutely identical except for the pin assignments. So if you are hearing any difference between these two, it must be due to the fact that in the ECC31, the two cathodes are tied together. This effectively halves the cathode resistance, but as I don't have an ECC32, I wasn't sure how much of a difference this would make. Actually, the ideal cathode resistance for an ECC32 is about half that of a 6SN7, so I figured that the ECC31 would be a bit "happier" in a 6SN7 socket than an ECC32....


----------



## gibosi

vapman said:


> Is anyone here running a 6N7 or similar in a Garage 1217 design? I'm looking to upgrade mine with one.


 
  
 I certainly haven't tried all the 6N7, but I can say that I found the ECC31 better than all those that I did try.... 
  
 The 6N7 heater draws 0.8 amps and the ECC31 draws 1.0 amps. so make sure your Garage 1217 can safely run these tubes...


----------



## vapman

gibosi said:


> I certainly haven't tried all the 6N7, but I can say that I found the ECC31 better than all those that I did try....
> 
> The 6N7 heater draws 0.8 amps and the ECC31 draws 1.0 amps. so make sure your Garage 1217 can safely run these tubes...




As I'm currently using 6n30p I believe it's capable of drawing that much power 

Excited to step up my tube game! The 6n30 is so far and away better than anything else I've heard. Excited to keep going.


----------



## leftside

gibosi said:


> This is interesting...  The ECC31 and ECC32 are absolutely identical except for the pin assignments. So if you are hearing any difference between these two, it must be due to the fact that in the ECC31, the two cathodes are tied together. This effectively halves the cathode resistance, but as I don't have an ECC32, I wasn't sure how much of a difference this would make. Actually, the ideal cathode resistance for an ECC32 is about half that of a 6SN7, so I figured that the ECC31 would be a bit "happier" in a 6SN7 socket than an ECC32....


 

 I'll give them another try. I've now got 2 pairs of ECC31's and ECC32's. To be honest, I'm one of those people who doesn't seem to hear too much of a difference between various tubes - just slight differences here and there. I'm wondering if it might be because of my source components and the particular tubes I have (I certainly know when I have a bad/noisy tube - but that has fortunately been a very rare occurrence).


----------



## JohnBal

If anyone is familiar with the Darkvoice 336i, do you know if the 6BL7 will work in this amp or even if the amp will work with the adapter for 2 6BL7 to single 6AS7?


----------



## Badas

vapman said:


> As I'm currently using 6n30p I believe it's capable of drawing that much power
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Are you using the 6N30p in a 6080/6AS7G circuit?


----------



## vapman

badas said:


> Are you using the 6N30p in a 6080/6AS7G circuit?


 

 To be honest, I'll need to figure that out. I'm still pretty new to tubes. Only got my first tube amp about 2 months ago and started rolling different ones less than a month ago.


----------



## MIKELAP

badas said:


> vapman said:
> 
> 
> > As I'm currently using 6n30p I believe it's capable of drawing that much power
> ...


 
 i am using the 6H30Pi tubes with 6CG7 to 6DE7 adapters as drivers in a WA6 can also use 6DJ8 types with those adapters.According to Woo they should also be compatible as drivers  with the WA2 but for some reason my WA2 doesnt like those mine hum and others have no problem. Can also be used as drivers with adapters in a WA22


----------



## mordy

Tried to use a 6N6pi tube as a power tube in my Elise amp (using a 9pin to 6SN7 adapter) but got too much hum to make it usable.


----------



## Rossliew

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but how does one go about minimizing hum from a tube amplifier?


----------



## mordy

Hi R,
  
 It's not off topic - it's very relevant.
  
 Some people are lucky that they have no or very few problems with hum, but there are many people that are grappling with this problem. Sometimes certain tubes hum much more than other types of tubes in your equipment.
  
 The main reason seems to be grounding, as far as I understand it. If you mention what kind of amp and equipment that you are using, you are going to find people that have the same amp and found various solutions to eliminate or diminish hum.


----------



## Rossliew

mordy said:


> Hi R,
> 
> It's not off topic - it's very relevant.
> 
> ...




It's actually my Glenn OTL amp. Funny I should hear hum last night with the same set of tubes when I did not hear any the previous week. Really perplexing and I was thinking of getting a mains conditioner but not sure if it will work.


----------



## Skylab

One thing that can produce hum (and other unwanted noises) that's not due to grounding is dirty tube pins. Clean those pins super well!!! I use steel wool (very careful afterward to make sure no stray steel fibers present) followed by contact cleaner.


----------



## Rossliew

skylab said:


> One thing that can produce hum (and other unwanted noises) that's not due to grounding is dirty tube pins. Clean those pins super well!!! I use steel wool (very careful afterward to make sure no stray steel fibers present) followed by contact cleaner.


 

 Thanks for the tip. Same advice given before especially the part on cleaning with steel wool LOL


----------



## leftside

1. Deoxit the pins. Cotton wool buds (q-tips) should be fine
 2. Buy strong, closely matched pairs of tubes (this is particularly important with the WA22)
 3. Different combos of tubes may increase/decrease the hum.
 4. Power conditioner may/may not have some effect
 5. Power cord may/may not have some effect
 6. A couple of techs I know say some tubes are more suited to headphone amps than others. They don't like the 300B's for headphone amps - say they are too noisy - but that is not what a lot of people on here have experienced.
 7. Check all source components. For us that are using vinyl with a cartridge, tube phono preamp, etc, then there are others things we need to check. I always do my "tests" with a digital input to rule other things out.
  
 I had hum problems originally, but my WA22 is now very silent with the right combos of tubes - even when listening to vinyl. Noise (hum/hiss) only appears at very loud volumes (way too loud for listening purposes).Very happy now, but it's certainly not the "plug and play" world of solid state.


----------



## Rossliew

leftside said:


> 1. Deoxit the pins. Cotton wool buds (q-tips) should be fine
> 2. Buy strong, closely matched pairs of tubes (this is particularly important with the WA22)
> 3. Different combos of tubes may increase/decrease the hum.
> 4. Power conditioner may/may not have some effect
> ...


 

 Thanks. I noticed the hum/buzz was present when using the Mojo as a DAC whilst it was silent when using the Schiit Bifrost Multibit. So, the DAC is one cause of it for sure...gosh i do hate all these variables!


----------



## mordy

It has been stated a number of times before, but may be worth repeating: You can clean your tube pins with a little knife blade or something similar - just scrape the pins gently (does not have to be a very sharp blade).


----------



## u2u2

rossliew said:


> Thanks. I noticed the hum/buzz was present when using the Mojo as a DAC whilst it was silent when using the Schiit Bifrost Multibit. So, the DAC is one cause of it for sure...gosh i do hate all these variables!




As a WA22 user I believe leftside is dead on in his comments. The WA22 can be fussy but, unless you got a bad MOJO, something else is going on. I use a MOJO occasionally on my amp and it is flawless. You can introduce hum by running your cables poorly or using poorly shielded cables or some combination of both. Your cable runs are probably different when using the MOJO. Check your cable location and quality. The beauty of the MOJO beyond being a capable DAC is running it off batteries thereby removing another grounded ac connection. I used my MOJO to help ID and eliminate my humming issues. YMMV.


----------



## Rossliew

u2u2 said:


> As a WA22 user I believe leftside is dead on in his comments. The WA22 can be fussy but, unless you got a bad MOJO, something else is going on. I use a MOJO occasionally on my amp and it is flawless. You can introduce hum by running your cables poorly or using poorly shielded cables or some combination of both. Your cable runs are probably different when using the MOJO. Check your cable location and quality. The beauty of the MOJO beyond being a capable DAC is running it off batteries thereby removing another grounded ac connection. I used my MOJO to help ID and eliminate my humming issues. YMMV.




Therein lies the mystery. I'm equally surprised how a battery powered Dac can cause the interference as compared to a desktop mains powered one. Initially I'd thought it was a bad USB cable connection but then I swapped to a Silver Dragon one and still it persisted. 

I then tried my other smaller portable Dac using a wall wart to power it and again the hum was present. Only the Bifrost was silent (but hum was present if I placed my hand on the chassis of the Bifrost).


----------



## Rossliew

mordy said:


> It has been stated a number of times before, but may be worth repeating: You can clean your tube pins with a little knife blade or something similar - just scrape the pins gently (does not have to be a very sharp blade).




Noted with thanks, Mordy


----------



## maheeinfy

With WA2 i struggled with hum(audible at 11'clock and only increases from there) and hiss(from tubes, its sporadic)
After switching from 6as7g to 6bl7 power tubes, hiss is pretty much gone. Hum is reduced and is audible only at at 2'clock. 
So IME tubes are the primary reason.
Other reasons could be grounding issues, bad power, cables or amp picking up interference


----------



## Badas

maheeinfy said:


> With WA2 i struggled with hum(audible at 11'clock and only increases from there) and hiss(from tubes, its sporadic)
> After switching from 6as7g to 6bl7 power tubes, hiss is pretty much gone. Hum is reduced and is audible only at at 2'clock.
> So IME tubes are the primary reason.
> Other reasons could be grounding issues, bad power, cables or amp picking up interference


 

 I'm glad I'm not the only one that had hum/noise problems. Seems like a lot of Woo products (I have the WA22).
 Some power tubes would be noisy while others would be dead quiet. Some rectifiers will hum, others won't. It seems with their products you need to mix and match to get synergy. Often you can't use your favorite tubes and have to settle for the next best.
 An example is last weekend I decided to use NU drivers. I put in NU 6F8G (noisy), then NU 6C8G (noisy). Reinstall the Tung-Sol 6C8G (quiet). Install NU with GE6AS7GA power tubes (quiet). Woo is fussy about synergy.
  
 I got noise from my 2 sets of 6BL7's so far when they were new. Both sets are now dead quiet. No noise whatsoever.
  
 I have noticed 6BL7's need time to warm up before the sound gels. About a hour? Anyone else notice this. There is no warmth for the first hour. Kinda tinny sound. Once an hour is past a lot of warmth comes in.


----------



## u2u2

rossliew said:


> Therein lies the mystery. I'm equally surprised how a battery powered Dac can cause the interference as compared to a desktop mains powered one. Initially I'd thought it was a bad USB cable connection but then I swapped to a Silver Dragon one and still it persisted.
> 
> I then tried my other smaller portable Dac using a wall wart to power it and again the hum was present. Only the Bifrost was silent (but hum was present if I placed my hand on the chassis of the Bifrost).


 

 My apologies as I ought to have been a little more detailed. The cable I found of relevance to my setup was the Mojo output to the RCA inputs on the amp. I use an ADL cable. Better than some cables but not crazy overkill. To feed the Mojo I use a thin "Beats" cable from my local Apple Store. It was selected because it is very flexible and wraps up small for packing portable. Very much the opposite of most cables to be found here. The only cable the Mojo is sensitive to on the input side is the charging one. It must be thick enough gauge with a sufficiently powered source. With the exception of a couple of bad tubes all my hum problems went away by using an IsoBar to plug the gear in and following that by putting more hours on the tubes. Broke the Mojo out even though I presently have bottom end tubes in the amp...
  
 Good luck solving the mystery.
  
 Early 50's RCA and Lansdale.


----------



## Badas

^
  
 Interesting arrangement of tubes. Could you list them?
  
 RCA 6AS7G can be a bit noisy/hums from time to time.


----------



## Rossliew

u2u2 said:


> My apologies as I ought to have been a little more detailed. The cable I found of relevance to my setup was the Mojo output to the RCA inputs on the amp. I use an ADL cable. Better than some cables but not crazy overkill. To feed the Mojo I use a thin "Beats" cable from my local Apple Store. It was selected because it is very flexible and wraps up small for packing portable. Very much the opposite of most cables to be found here. The only cable the Mojo is sensitive to on the input side is the charging one. It must be thick enough gauge with a sufficiently powered source. With the exception of a couple of bad tubes all my hum problems went away by using an IsoBar to plug the gear in and following that by putting more hours on the tubes. Broke the Mojo out even though I presently have bottom end tubes in the amp...
> 
> Good luck solving the mystery.
> 
> Early 50's RCA and Lansdale.




Nice set up! I have decided not to use the mojo to feed the amp but to stick with the Bifrost and thereafter my Audio Note Dac once it's assembled. One thing though the Moon Silver Dragon digital cable is doing absolute wonders to the sound! Never before heard transparency and a more cohesive sound .


----------



## 3083joe

leftside said:


> I use these Joe on my WA22 with the Mullard ECC31's:
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/201408123468
> 
> Just remember to use the adapters before using these tubes  They are really nice tubes, but I still prefer the ECC32/33/35.



Me too but I'm curious about the EL3N


----------



## abvolt

The rectifier looks like a 5r4gy nice sounding tube mines an amperex not sure what the driver tubes are Russian?


----------



## 3083joe

2359glenn said:


> The 6N7 could work in your amp but will need a adapter



Can we get an adapter made for it?


----------



## u2u2

badas said:


> ^
> 
> Interesting arrangement of tubes. Could you list them?
> 
> RCA 6AS7G can be a bit noisy/hums from time to time.


 

 These RCA 6AS7G are very noisy during warmup then settle nicely. The rectifier is a 1952 RCA JAN 5R4-GY and the drivers are 1952 JAN CBRZ 7N7 Lansdale. The 7N7 are presumably rebranded Sylvania although the plate assembly welds, top mica, lack of top support, and foil getter are different than the others I have that are Sylvania branded. All in all a very small step up from the as delivered tubes that came with the amp. These will be in for a day at most as I have several sets of power and driver tubes incoming - expected tomorrow.


----------



## mordy

Hi 3083joe,
  
 You will need an ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter. The cheapest are around $13/pair shipped, by Suzier. You can get more expensive adapters from other sellers- don't know if there is a difference.
  
 Speaking about less expensive alternatives, CRC makes an 11 oz electronics cleaner spray can that may be similar to Deoxit - a can is less than $5 in Walmart. Does anybody have experience with it?


----------



## 3083joe

mordy said:


> Hi 3083joe,
> 
> You will need an ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter. The cheapest are around $13/pair shipped, by Suzier. You can get more expensive adapters from other sellers- don't know if there is a difference.
> 
> Speaking about less expensive alternatives, CRC makes an 11 oz electronics cleaner spray can that may be similar to Deoxit - a can is less than $5 in Walmart. Does anybody have experience with it?



I have the adapters
Will work with these?


----------



## mordy

If these tubes are 6N7G tubes - yes. The same adapter works for 6N7, 6N7G and 6N7GT tubes.


----------



## whirlwind

I just received some tubes that I recently bought from e-bay....a matched pair of 1957 RCA 6AS7G ....I have heard many say that these tubes do not sound good and that they are noisy....this pair popped for a while, but hey, they have been on the shelf for just about 60 years  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 After a few minutes they settled in quit nice, cant wait until they burn in....pairing them with a 1942 RCA 12SN7GT that I also just received from e-bay, for $7 delivered  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...dead quiet.....This combo actually makes my RS1 sound lush & warm.
  
 These tubes are much better than what I was anticipating, after reading others results.
  
 I love listening to tubes that are all older than myself, and still producing quality sound for a darn good price.


----------



## attmci

At first, I thought you were talking about 6BL7GTA tubes. Because nobody cares about 6AS7G here. LOL


----------



## Badas

attmci said:


> At first, I thought you were talking about 6BL7GTA tubes. Because nobody cares about 6AS7G here. LOL


 

 I tell ya what. Last night I tested myself. I stuck in my favorite 6080/6AS7G type tube to see if I was putting too much credit into the 6BL7 tubes. I rolled the Mullard 6080. The sound sucked. Shocking so. So congested. 6080/6AS7G is dead to me now. 6BL7 is far superior. Closest small power tube to a 300B.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> attmci said:
> 
> 
> > At first, I thought you were talking about 6BL7GTA tubes. Because nobody cares about 6AS7G here. LOL
> ...


 
 I love the 6BL7 also, but I also love the Mullard 6080 sound....it far from sucks in my amp....it is very nice.


----------



## Johnnysound

whirlwind said:


> I just received some tubes that I recently bought from e-bay....a matched pair of 1957 RCA 6AS7G ....I have heard many say that these tubes do not sound good and that they are noisy....this pair popped for a while, but hey, they have been on the shelf for just about 60 years
> 
> After a few minutes they settled in quit nice, cant wait until they burn in....pairing them with a 1942 RCA 12SN7GT that I also just received from e-bay, for $7 delivered   ...dead quiet.....This combo actually makes my RS1 sound lush & warm.
> 
> ...




In my humble opinion, RCAs have received very unfair opinions. Early Fifties tubes sound great in my setup. But late forties RCA NOS 6AS7G coke bottle tubes, bottom getters, are the ones to look for. There are still many around, and are something really special. A true classic, with a lush, warm sound that flows into an extraordinary 3D presentation that is second to none...the kind that you forget about and listen for hours...


----------



## Johnnysound

badas said:


> I tell ya what. Last night I tested myself. I stuck in my favorite 6080/6AS7G type tube to see if I was putting too much credit into the 6BL7 tubes. I rolled the Mullard 6080. The sound sucked. Shocking so. So congested. 6080/6AS7G is dead to me now. 6BL7 is far superior. Closest small power tube to a 300B.




Very interesting !! 6BL7s in a multi tube output setup, I guess. Mullard 6080, being good, sound inferior (in my setup) compared to Chatham 6AS7G, for example, I would not equal 6080s to 6AS7Gs, very different results. Need to get an Elise to experience 6BL7s !!! No way with my LDIII, even with external PS !!, or can I ??


----------



## whirlwind

johnnysound said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I just received some tubes that I recently bought from e-bay....a matched pair of 1957 RCA 6AS7G ....I have heard many say that these tubes do not sound good and that they are noisy....this pair popped for a while, but hey, they have been on the shelf for just about 60 years
> ...


 
 I will be on the lookout for some older ones, but even if I come across a deal like the one that i got these for, I would jump on it....I agree, these sound nice , warm and cozy...for the times that you want that sound.
  
 I want another pair so I can try running two per side as power tubes.
  
 I am not saying they are better than 6BL&...5998....GEC6080....ect.........but they have easily exceeded my expectations and they are not burned in yet.  Nice black back round too.
  
 I was thinking I would just use them to burn in some of my other driver tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  


johnnysound said:


> badas said:
> 
> 
> > I tell ya what. Last night I tested myself. I stuck in my favorite 6080/6AS7G type tube to see if I was putting too much credit into the 6BL7 tubes. I rolled the Mullard 6080. The sound sucked. Shocking so. So congested. 6080/6AS7G is dead to me now. 6BL7 is far superior. Closest small power tube to a 300B.
> ...


 
  
 I am not the one to answer your question about the LDIII......just make sure you find out before trying it....Glenn could probably tell you if you need an external supply.
  
 Two 6BL7 per channel sound wonderful with my HD800......lots of authority.
  
 I have had almost no issues with noise in my amp....basically it is a very dark black back round with all tubes......one of my only very few encounters with noise came from the 6BL7...  I just purchased four more....maybe they will be dead silent.


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Very interesting !! 6BL7s in a multi tube output setup, I guess. Mullard 6080, being good, sound inferior (in my setup) compared to Chatham 6AS7G, for example, I would not equal 6080s to 6AS7Gs, very different results. *Need to get an Elise to experience 6BL7s !!! *No way with my LDIII, even with external PS !!, or can I ??


 
  
 Hi J...you do indeed need to get an Elise lol - but you won't need to bother with 6BL7s...your Chathams will sound fabulous!...especially when driven by the wonderful EL3N (+ adapters)...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...


----------



## attmci

whirlwind said:


> I love the 6BL7 also, but I also love the Mullard 6080 sound....it far from sucks in my amp....it is very nice.


 

 I don't have Mullard 6080. But I do have GEC 6080. They look very similar to me.
  
 Could you share the difference between the two?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## whirlwind

I will shoot you a pm .


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hi J...you do indeed need to get an Elise lol - but you won't need to bother with 6BL7s...your Chathams will sound fabulous!...especially when driven by the wonderful EL3N (+ adapters)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I totally agree )))


----------



## gibosi

johnnysound said:


> Very interesting !! 6BL7s in a multi tube output setup, I guess. Mullard 6080, being good, sound inferior (in my setup) compared to Chatham 6AS7G, for example, I would not equal 6080s to 6AS7Gs, very different results. Need to get an Elise to experience 6BL7s !!! No way with my LDIII, even with external PS !!, or can I ??


 
  
 Yes you can. 
  
 A pair of 6AS7G draws 5 amps. A quad of 6BL7GT draws 6 amps. So as long as your external PS is up to the task, there is no reason why you can't.


----------



## Oskari

Somebody, please, start a 6BL7 thread.


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> Somebody, please, start a 6BL7 thread.


 
 Why would anyone want to do that when they can have all the fun of having hi-jacked this thread and irritating the rest of us who don't care about 6BL7s?? By the way, I have 4 6BL7s. Anyone want to buy them???


----------



## Oskari

There's that, and then there's enough interest, in this thread and other threads, to justify a thread specific to the 6BL7, I think.


----------



## pctazhp

oskari said:


> There's that, and then there's enough interest, in this thread and other threads, to justify a thread specific to the 6BL7, I think.


 
 We all have our own personal preferences. I have no problem with people wanting to talk about 6BL7s. Just doesn't seem like this is the place to do it. There's a lot of interest in world peace, but this isn't the place to discuss that either


----------



## UntilThen

badas said:


> I tell ya what. Last night I tested myself. I stuck in my favorite 6080/6AS7G type tube to see if I was putting too much credit into the 6BL7 tubes. I rolled the Mullard 6080. The sound sucked. Shocking so. So congested. 6080/6AS7G is dead to me now. 6BL7 is far superior. Closest small power tube to a 300B.


 
 Mullard 6080 sucked and 6BL7 far superior? I hardly think so. However everyone's entitled to their opinion.


----------



## hypnos1

pctazhp said:


> We all have our own personal preferences. I have no problem with people wanting to talk about 6BL7s. Just doesn't seem like this is the place to do it. There's a lot of interest in world peace, but this isn't the place to discuss that either


 
  
 Indeed, pct....time more respect was given to those many who started and subsequently contributed to this thread...*"* *For 6AS7G Tube Rollers"*...





....


----------



## Badas

^

Okay. We hear ya.

It is a shame as in the future we could all have compared sound qualities between the types of tubes. It seems okay for 5998 and 7236 to be invited here although they are different as well. 

However. I have started a 6BL7 thread here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/806043/for-6bl7-tube-users#post_12529028


----------



## u2u2

attmci said:


> I don't have Mullard 6080. But I do have GEC 6080. They look very similar to me.
> 
> Could you share the difference between the two?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
  
  
 I have several different variants of the GEC 6080 tubes and a couple of versions of the Mullard 6080 series. My Mullards are closely matched NOS and the GEC are NOS but I have no test data for them. I think the dates of manufacture probably cover a period of about 15 years. All my pairs look like their mate came off the line on the same day as the other member of the pair. I use them in a Woo WA22 and my succinct take on the difference is about "double" in favour of the Mullard although I tend to run the GEC more.
  
 I roll a good variety of low and mid range priced rectifiers and drivers running in price of $15 to $400 CDN. The Mullards appear, in my opinion, to be better built using copper rods and better support for the upper mica. On the other hand all my GEC have faired better during the decades of storage they have seen. The GEC metal bases have withstood the test of time with less signs of aging. The GEC also have the GEC labels intact. 
  
 Installed in the amp the GEC look sharper. In operation, if you gave me a blind test, I doubt I could tell a difference between the Mullard and GEC. I use the same volume setting so I guess the gain is very similar. So: What do I mean by "double"? The GEC cost me double what the Mullards did.... They look better so if I can see them they sound better just like my pretty upgraded HD800 cables sound better than stock... but I digress.
  
 Earlier in this thread both brands seemed to be better thought of than they are now. I think they both offer good value in their respective price ranges with the Mullard winning if overall tube condition is not as high of a priority. I like both better than the other common 6080 tubes I have tried to date as well as Sylvania 7236 and RCS 6AS7G.


----------



## hypnos1

u2u2 said:


> I have several different variants of the GEC 6080 tubes and a couple of versions of the Mullard 6080 series. My Mullards are closely matched NOS and the GEC are NOS but I have no test data for them. I think the dates of manufacture probably cover a period of about 15 years. All my pairs look like their mate came off the line on the same day as the other member of the pair. I use them in a Woo WA22 and my succinct take on the difference is about "double" in favour of the Mullard although I tend to run the GEC more.
> 
> I roll a good variety of low and mid range priced rectifiers and drivers running in price of $15 to $400 CDN. The Mullards appear, in my opinion, to be better built using copper rods and better support for the upper mica. On the other hand all my GEC have faired better during the decades of storage they have seen. The GEC metal bases have withstood the test of time with less signs of aging. The GEC also have the GEC labels intact.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very good and informative post, u2u2...did you ever manage to compare the GEC 6080 to the ST bottle CV2523/A1834 at all? My own - straight and curved-bottom brown base - give me all I could wish for in my Feliks-Audio Elise.


----------



## u2u2

hypnos1 said:


> Very good and informative post, u2u2...did you ever manage to compare the GEC 6080 to the ST bottle CV2523/A1834 at all? My own - straight and curved-bottom brown base - give me all I could wish for in my Feliks-Audio Elise.




I have not had the opportunity and I kick myself because I spent a year debating if I would buy a WA22 or WA5LE. I spent that time building an assortment of rectifiers and drivers. I passed on some reasonably priced NOS ST bottles during that period. I did not want to be buying power tubes without knowing which amp I would end up with. In general I have not experienced the extreme range of performance improvements claimed while tube rolling by so many posters. I may seek a set one day but not with the expectation of a performance upgrade. I do like the looks... I am probably going to get stupid and try a TAK 274B first! Then some nicer ST bottles than my RCA tubes might fly. Enjoy your Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

u2u2 said:


> I have not had the opportunity and I kick myself because I spent a year debating if I would buy a WA22 or WA5LE. I spent that time building an assortment of rectifiers and drivers. I passed on some reasonably priced NOS ST bottles during that period. I did not want to be buying power tubes without knowing which amp I would end up with. In general I have not experienced the extreme range of performance improvements claimed while tube rolling by so many posters. I may seek a set one day but not with the expectation of a performance upgrade. I do like the looks... I am probably going to get stupid and try a TAK 274B first! Then some nicer ST bottles than my RCA tubes might fly. Enjoy your Elise.


 
  
 Yo u2u2...such choice deliberation can indeed create other associated dilemnas, lol!...all part of this (oft frustrating!) hobby of ours...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...like do we spend $$$$$ on fancier tubes, or upgrade the DAC/headphones/speakers (if used as preamp)?...many would say the latter!
  
 Re. the RCAs, I personally found the more highly regarded 6AS7Gs much 'better' across the board - and the GEC/Osrams in a different league entirely. But that's in my own system, of course...ie. standard CD and hi-res files via Oppo BDP103's coax out thru Audiolab 8200CD's ESS Sabre DAC to Elise and Beyer T1s; with 'conditioned' mains supply/upgraded power cables/fuses; ArtisanSilver pure silver interconnects...not to mention _my_ ears!
  
 ps. I've no doubt you enjoy your WA also! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## u2u2

hypnos1 said:


> Yo u2u2...such choice deliberation can indeed create other associated dilemnas, lol!...all part of this (oft frustrating!) hobby of ours...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 In the last six months I have managed to upgrade my DAC, Amp, tubes, all cables, and headphones. But for moving beyond my HD800 phones my non-consumable kit is pretty much my intended end game. As I deliberate on additional tube upgrades I am confident I am getting further into the territory of diminishing returns. During my ventures the best, and easiest to track, change in my audio enjoyment is the number of old tracks in my collection that no longer sound good. Better mastered tracks from some of the hi-res providers have become a must. You may have convinced me to grab some Osrams, after all, anyone can get a TAK rectifier anytime. NOS gems are drying up. The only true measure in this hobby is personal experience in one's own listening environment with their own gear. Now I am off to work on a strategy for dealing with the better half... always best to keep things on the nebulous side. Thank you for the skilful enabling!


----------



## hypnos1

u2u2 said:


> In the last six months I have managed to upgrade my DAC, Amp, tubes, all cables, and headphones. But for moving beyond my HD800 phones my non-consumable kit is pretty much my intended end game. As I deliberate on additional tube upgrades I am confident I am getting further into the territory of diminishing returns. During my ventures the best, and easiest to track, change in my audio enjoyment is the number of old tracks in my collection that no longer sound good. Better mastered tracks from some of the hi-res providers have become a must. You may have convinced me to grab some Osrams, after all, anyone can get a TAK rectifier anytime. NOS gems are drying up. The only true measure in this hobby is personal experience in one's own listening environment with their own gear. Now I am off to work on a strategy for dealing with the better half... always best to keep things on the nebulous side. Thank you for the skilful enabling!


 
  
 Ah, the Law of DRs....given the way the same tube can differ greatly from set-up to set-up I would hate to be the cause of strife in your household, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...not to mention in your wallet!! I have to admit to wondering about the return on investment, considering current horrendous prices of such highly prized tubes. Plus, I wish there was solid info on just what kind of lifespan can be expected from the GEC/Osrams in question. I count myself fortunate that I was able to acquire my first pair (used but measuring as new) a couple of years ago for a very good price. Then I was even luckier to bag an exceptional offer (out of sympathy) on a NOS tube from a reputable dealer - £60 (never to be repeated!) - and lastly an unrecognised-by-the-hawks-on ebay NOS curved-bottom-base A1834 (labelled Haltron 6AS7G)...again for just over £60...needless to say my hands were shaking as I waited 'til the last seconds to put in max bid! Simply couldn't believe my luck...but it does sometimes happen - not usually to _me__!!_
  
 Recently the best deal seemed to be from an ebayer in India, at $400 a pair....now at $250 each NOS (but am not too sure about the measurement figures he's showing, alas...). Perhaps you should try keeping an eagle eye open for any future 'sleepers' LOL...along with plenty of patience and _luck_!...Cheers!...


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> u2u2 said:
> 
> 
> > In the last six months I have managed to upgrade my DAC, Amp, tubes, all cables, and headphones. But for moving beyond my HD800 phones my non-consumable kit is pretty much my intended end game. As I deliberate on additional tube upgrades I am confident I am getting further into the territory of diminishing returns. During my ventures the best, and easiest to track, change in my audio enjoyment is the number of old tracks in my collection that no longer sound good. Better mastered tracks from some of the hi-res providers have become a must. You may have convinced me to grab some Osrams, after all, anyone can get a TAK rectifier anytime. NOS gems are drying up. The only true measure in this hobby is personal experience in one's own listening environment with their own gear. Now I am off to work on a strategy for dealing with the better half... always best to keep things on the nebulous side. Thank you for the skilful enabling!
> ...


 
 Gm is quite low on those tubes. I wouldn't buy them at that price.


----------



## JamieMcC

Be careful buying the Haltron branded 6as7g there have been a good few Russian Svetlana's spotted that have had the Haltron branding applied and then marketed as GEC/Marconi/Haltron I have seen them sell on ebay for silly money.


----------



## SonicTrance

jamiemcc said:


> Be careful buying the Haltron branded 6as7g there have been a good few Russian Svetlana's spotted that have had the Haltron branding applied and then marketed as GEC/Marconi/Haltron I have seen them sell on ebay for silly money.


 
 Yeah, not too long ago a pair of Svetlana 6AS7's with GEC stickers went for quite a lot of money too.


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> Be careful buying the Haltron branded 6as7g there have been a good few Russian Svetlana's spotted that have had the Haltron branding applied and then marketed as GEC/Marconi/Haltron I have seen them sell on ebay for silly money.


 
  
 Yes indeed, JMcC and SonicTrance - folks MUST study very carefully the construction and "look" of the true GEC types, and compare with the Russians especially. But once firmly digested, there's no mistaking them - regardless of what the label says, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (This is how I immediately spotted the 'Haltron' I mentioned, and which presumably went under the radar of those who have NOT done their homework!). The curved-bottom brown base was also a dead giveaway, as I don't believe any other 6AS7G type has this.
  
 So yes, BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!...CHEERS!...
  
 ps. Those Russian Haltrons can usually be identified most easily by their DUAL bottom pan getters (nicknamed "flying saucer" type), as opposed to the genuine GEC's usual SINGLE bottom one, as per the photo. Also, note the usual etched design displaying 'CV2523'/'A1834'/'6AS7G'....


----------



## whirlwind

jamiemcc said:


> Be careful buying the Haltron branded 6as7g there have been a good few Russian Svetlana's spotted that have had the Haltron branding applied and then marketed as GEC/Marconi/Haltron I have seen them sell on ebay for silly money.


 
 Yeah, but they can easily be spotted as they have no where near the same construction.
  
 Still pretty sad that someone would do this.


----------



## JamieMcC

Saucer getters are the norm but don't forget the GEC can also be found with both round and square halo getters  
  
 (we have  done this before 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> Saucer getters are the norm but don't forget the GEC can also be found with both round and square halo getters
> 
> (we have  done this before
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed JMcC...done before (as with many things on these threads!), but thanks for the reminder...there's always someone who hasn't caught up with the full history - not surprising sometimes, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...even if I _do_ keep urging people to take the extra time and effort to do so, as it usually pays dividends in the end!


----------



## gibosi

And just so folks know they exist, these are from the late 1940's with two small cup getters on opposite sides and black bases.
  
 Edit: It might be more useful to refer to these as "cup" getters to distinguish them from the "flying saucer" getters found on the Russian product.


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Hi J...you do indeed need to get an Elise lol - but you won't need to bother with 6BL7s...your Chathams will sound fabulous!...especially when driven by the wonderful EL3N (+ adapters)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi H, and yes, you are right,  but with my future Elise I would eventually try both 6BL7s (output) and EL3N (input)  variants...this is an expensive hobby (lol)   What about sonic impressions ?, lets say a comparison between nice 6SN7G(or C3gs) + 6BL7s  against  the EL3Ns + 6AS7Gs combo...    I bet both sound good but very different ¡¡


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Hi H, and yes, you are right,  but with my future Elise I would eventually try both 6BL7s (output) and EL3N (input)  variants...this is an expensive hobby (lol)   What about sonic impressions ?, lets say a comparison between nice 6SN7G(or C3gs) + 6BL7s  against  the EL3Ns + 6AS7Gs combo...    I bet both sound good but very different ¡¡


 
  
 Hi again J.
  
 Glad you're considering the Elise...good choice!
  
 As for the comparos, it would appear - as usual, lol! - that results can vary greatly between set-ups. There's been a fair bit on this over at the Elise thread, and some of the most comprehensive work has been done by @UntilThen. I suggest a good *long* look!
  
 However, an even better suggestion is to get the amp, compare for yourself and give us all your _own_ sonic impressions!!...these, of course, will be the only ones truly valid for _*you!*_





...and will be of great interest to everyone else LOL...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....especially *me!*...so hope to be welcoming you very soon.... CHEERS!
  
 ps. Do you have any of the other power tubes that are always included when discussing '6AS7G' - ie. 6080/5998/7236?


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again J.
> 
> Glad you're considering the Elise...good choice!
> 
> ...




Certainly, I know that a good and long look into this threads will bring, as always, the best insight about sonic results of different combinations of tubes. I have to do my homework, maybe have been a bit lazy. And of course, different setups will offer different results, thats for sure. But I must disagree with you, dear H1, in that my own sonic impressions will be the only ones valid for me. Absolutely not. I am here precisely to learn about tubes, and if I managed to improve the sound of my setup a whole lot, that was possible because I followed the advice and the sonic impressions of other people, not mine, including YOUR opinions, of course. And you have a very different setup from mine. So, I must conclude that certain tubes, in the right combination, or properly driven, will bring terrific sound in almost any setup, no matter the brand of type. Probably best in some, and good in others, but the intrinsic quality of the tube is proven beyond doubt by the experiences of the people here. 

I must admit that initially some tubes were not what I expected, until I realized that my preamp setup, for some unknown reason, (with C3g tubes as drivers) went into sonic nirvana exclusively with 6AS7G coke bottles, but only with vintage bottom getters, up to 1954 or so, (RCA, GE) being the best the 49s as I said in a previous post. Tested two pairs of Chathams (54 vintage) that sounded exactly the same and added a level of higher resolution and great bass, probably more neutral, great sound, but with a darker, "serious" character that contrasted with the openess of the others. A matter of taste. But since you asked, I am fascinated with my latest adquisition: wait a minute, a pair of extremely rare, seldom seen anywhere, NOS in original boxes Tung-Sol 6520s. 1957 vintage. Some collectors say this is exactly the same as the 5998, but with flat plates (not the famous domino ones) , I dont know, but let them play for 30 hours or so, before listening seriously, and the sound settled into something truly superior to all the others. Mighty bass, and not "tubey" at all, clearly defined, fast and taut, liquid, elegant midranges and refined highs, tremendous rendition of space, dynamics, a pleasure to listen to. Refinement, elegance, resolution, power are the words that I am thinking about. I dont know if this is the same as the famed 5998, but I suspect it probably is...


----------



## SonicTrance

johnnysound said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi again J.
> ...


 
 There's two versions of Tung-Sol/Chatham 6520's. One with the normal 6AS7 style flat plates and one with the 5998 style domino plates. I have the flat plates you're talking about and they sound nothing like 5998's. To me they sound identical to the Chatham 6AS7's.
 The 6520's with domino plates probably have 5998 spec, but I don't know as I've never had one. 
  
 Edit: My 6520's did however test very high in my tester, around 8000 umhos, using 6AS7 settings.


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Certainly, I know that a good and long look into this threads will bring, as always, the best insight about sonic results of different combinations of tubes. I have to do my homework, maybe have been a bit lazy. And of course, different setups will offer different results, thats for sure. But I must disagree with you, dear H1, in that my own sonic impressions will be the only ones valid for me. Absolutely not. I am here precisely to learn about tubes, and if I managed to improve the sound of my setup a whole lot, that was possible because I followed the advice and the sonic impressions of other people, not mine, including YOUR opinions, of course. And you have a very different setup from mine. So, I must conclude that certain tubes, in the right combination, or properly driven, will bring terrific sound in almost any setup, no matter the brand of type. Probably best in some, and good in others, but the intrinsic quality of the tube is proven beyond doubt by the experiences of the people here.
> 
> I must admit that initially some tubes were not what I expected, until I realized that my preamp setup, for some unknown reason, (with C3g tubes as drivers) went into sonic nirvana exclusively with 6AS7G coke bottles, but only with vintage bottom getters, up to 1954 or so, (RCA, GE) being the best the 49s as I said in a previous post. Tested two pairs of Chathams (54 vintage) that sounded exactly the same and added a level of higher resolution and great bass, probably more neutral, great sound, but with a darker, "serious" character that contrasted with the openess of the others. A matter of taste. But since you asked, I am fascinated with my latest adquisition: wait a minute, a pair of extremely rare, seldom seen anywhere, NOS in original boxes Tung-Sol 6520s. 1957 vintage. Some collectors say this is exactly the same as the 5998, but with flat plates (not the famous domino ones) , I dont know, but let them play for 30 hours or so, before listening seriously, and the sound settled into something truly superior to all the others. Mighty bass, and not "tubey" at all, clearly defined, fast and taut, liquid, elegant midranges and refined highs, tremendous rendition of space, dynamics, a pleasure to listen to. Refinement, elegance, resolution, power are the words that I am thinking about. I dont know if this is the same as the famed 5998, but I suspect it probably is...


 
  
 Hi J.
  
 Yo...the 'flat plate' version is apparently a 'premium' 6AS7G - probably in a similar vein to standard C3g vs the 'S' version IMHO...??...And, as I suspect is the case with pretty well all tubes, some may be  more 'premium' than others when it comes to actual _sonic_ performance as opposed to _measured_ performance, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. It would appear _your_ pair is indeed a good cut above the standard tubes...LUCKY YOU!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And yes, of course you're right - we do indeed benefit from others' results...but we must also be prepared for an unfortunate fall ....happens rather often, alas!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!...


----------



## pctazhp

hypnos1 said:


> Hi J.
> 
> Yo...the 'flat plate' version is apparently a 'premium' 6AS7G - probably in a similar vein to standard C3g vs the 'S' version IMHO...??...And, as I suspect is the case with pretty well all tubes, some may be  more 'premium' than others when it comes to actual _sonic_ performance as opposed to _measured_ performance, lol!
> 
> ...


 
 H1:  I just checked my 6520s and found that they are the flat-plate version. It's amazing how much better they now sound


----------



## Johnnysound

sonictrance said:


> There's two versions of Tung-Sol/Chatham 6520's. One with the normal 6AS7 style flat plates and one with the 5998 style domino plates. I have the flat plates you're talking about and they sound nothing like 5998's. To me they sound identical to the Chatham 6AS7's.
> The 6520's with domino plates probably have 5998 spec, but I don't know as I've never had one.
> 
> Edit: My 6520's did however test very high in my tester, around 8000 umhos, using 6AS7 settings.




Hi PC, so, a 6520 with domino plates would be virtually identical to a 5998...or not ? I wonder what the different model designations means for Tung-Sol...


----------



## SonicTrance

johnnysound said:


> sonictrance said:
> 
> 
> > There's two versions of Tung-Sol/Chatham 6520's. One with the normal 6AS7 style flat plates and one with the 5998 style domino plates. I have the flat plates you're talking about and they sound nothing like 5998's. To me they sound identical to the Chatham 6AS7's.
> ...


 
 I'm PC? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think the domino plate version of the 6520 is re-branded 5998's. But like I said I don't know. Here's the datasheet for 6520: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf
 They marketed it as a more balanced and reliable version of the 6AS7G.


----------



## Johnnysound

sonictrance said:


> I'm PC?
> 
> I think the domino plate version of the 6520 is re-branded 5998's. But like I said I don't know. Here's the datasheet for 6520: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf
> They marketed it as a more balanced and reliable version of the 6AS7G.




Sorry !! You are ST, and this is my PC...(lol) 
And how they marketed the 5998, as a top of the line (?)


----------



## UntilThen

These are my flat plates Chatham 6520s flanked by pairs of Chatham 6AS7Gs. I do prefer the Chatham 6520 tone. Very subtle difference but a shade less bright.


----------



## Johnnysound

sonictrance said:


> I'm PC?
> 
> I think the domino plate version of the 6520 is re-branded 5998's. But like I said I don't know. Here's the datasheet for 6520: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf
> They marketed it as a more balanced and reliable version of the 6AS7G.




Hi again, ST

From the datasheets, it is evident that the 5998 is the "super tube" in the Tung-Sol 6AS7G family, with double the transconductance of both the "improved" 6520 and the "standard" 6AS7G (14000 per section vs. 7000 ). Also, it has a 5.5 amplification factor vs. 2 in the others. How these specs translate into sonic benefits is another matter...so, I correct myself, 6520 and 5998 are different tubes. Cheers..


----------



## UntilThen

johnnysound said:


> Hi again, ST
> 
> From the datasheets, it is evident that the 5998 is the "super tube" in the Tung-Sol 6AS7G family, with double the transconductance of both the "improved" 6520 and the "standard" 6AS7G (14000 per section vs. 7000 ). Also, it has a 5.5 amplification factor vs. 2 in the others. How these specs translate into sonic benefits is another matter...so, I correct myself, 6520 and 5998 are different tubes. Cheers..


 

 There are 6520 with domino plates that are supposed to be the equivalent of 5998 but I've not seen or heard those.
  
 So there are 2 types of 6520 according to earlier posts in this thread.


----------



## UntilThen

This is a 6AS7G or 6520 with domino plates.
  
post #219


----------



## Johnnysound

untilthen said:


> These are my flat plates Chatham 6520s flanked by pairs of Chatham 6AS7Gs. I do prefer the Chatham 6520 tone. Very subtle difference but a shade less bright.




Very nice tubes ! And I had no idea Chathams 6520 even existed...my TS 6520 are top getters, steel rods while my Chathams 6AS7G are bottom getters, copper rods. Apart from that, the construction is virtually identical, and the sound is very close. Differences are very subtle as you said, but I also prefer the tone of the 6520, find it a bit more "round" and refined.


----------



## UntilThen

johnnysound said:


> Very nice tubes ! And I had no idea Chathams 6520 even existed...my TS 6520 are top getters, steel rods while my Chathams 6AS7G are bottom getters, copper rods. Apart from that, the construction is virtually identical, and the sound is very close. Differences are very subtle as you said, but I also prefer the tone of the 6520, find it a bit more "round" and refined.


 

 Congrats on the TS 6520 NOS and in original box. Now that's rare indeed these days. They will sound magnificent pair with some good drivers, like C3G or EL3N.
  
 While we are talking about similarities with 5998, I'll show a recent acquisition, a pair of Tung Sol 7236 at $63 which I think is a good price. Shown here with a pair of Mullard 6080, these have a tighter, more focussed tone compared to the 5998. They can be useful for getting the different tones for you to switch around with. I do like the TS 7236, even the Mullard 6080. Tighter, tauter, leaner and brighter than the 6AS7G or 5998 sound. I think they compliment the other power tubes well.


----------



## SonicTrance

johnnysound said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > These are my flat plates Chatham 6520s flanked by pairs of Chatham 6AS7Gs. I do prefer the Chatham 6520 tone. Very subtle difference but a shade less bright.
> ...


 
 And, as always, there're re-brands. For example these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-PIECES-MATCHED-6520-5998-6AS7G-6080-6336A-421A-TUNGSOL-TUBES-NOS-COND-/401109349659?hash=item5d63faf51b:g:68oAAOSw-YBXGYHm
  
 I bet my life that those are re-branded RCA 6AS7G's.


----------



## UntilThen

Those do look like RCA 6AS7G.


----------



## thecrow

untilthen said:


> Those do look like RCA 6AS7G.



Yes 
I have heard of old guy radiola before in these threads 

Just search "radiola" here for some views 

Mmm......


----------



## whirlwind

johnnysound said:


> sonictrance said:
> 
> 
> > I'm PC?
> ...


 
 The 5998 can also be run harder than most 6AS7G tubes....Glenn does this in his amps, flip a switch in the back of the amp when running 5998 tubes and the amp gives the 5998 tubes a nice boost , so to speak...they probably will not last as long, but the sound is significantly better, than with having the switch off.


----------



## SonicTrance

whirlwind said:


> johnnysound said:
> 
> 
> > sonictrance said:
> ...


 
 I've recently implemented this bias switch myself in my LD MK6. And what it does, at least in the MK6, is giving the 5998's/421a's same amount of current as the 6080/6AS7's get. In stock form the 5998 only gets half as much current as a 6AS7 in a 6AS7 circuit. That's why many notice that their amps run cool with 5998's, they're not getting enough current.
 You can read about this mod in the MK6/MK8 mod thread if you want.
 And like you said, the sonic improvements are significant! 
  
 And yes, I did ask Glenn for help with this mod.


----------



## Johnnysound

untilthen said:


> Congrats on the TS 6520 NOS and in original box. Now that's rare indeed these days. They will sound magnificent pair with some good drivers, like C3G or EL3N.
> 
> While we are talking about similarities with 5998, I'll show a recent acquisition, a pair of Tung Sol 7236 at $63 which I think is a good price. Shown here with a pair of Mullard 6080, these have a tighter, more focussed tone compared to the 5998. They can be useful for getting the different tones for you to switch around with. I do like the TS 7236, even the Mullard 6080. Tighter, tauter, leaner and brighter than the 6AS7G or 5998 sound. I think they compliment the other power tubes well.




Thanks, UT. And yes, rare, you can find many offers for 5998, but really very few of 6520s in NOS condition. I do use C3gs as drivers in my modified LD3, and this is a sharp, dynamic , extended, powerful driver in both frequency extremes. Kind of ruthless, will send everything into the powers including high frequencies at full range with no pretensions of delicacy or nuance, so they can certainly go "over the top" combined with some output tubes. But the synergy with the coke bottles is just what you said: they sound magnificent. The shortcomings of the old 6AS7Gs, lets say lesser highs, limited bass output or reduced dynamics are compensated by the extended rendition of the C3gs. Not to mention the air, space and 3d effect. Curiously, this is not quite the same with even the best 6080s. The Mullards, for example. Or the Chathams. I mean, they do sound great with the C3gs. Maybe you get more impactful bass, or a more realistic and neutral sound, but the magic is not quite there...


----------



## Johnnysound

sonictrance said:


> I've recently implemented this bias switch myself in my LD MK6. And what it does, at least in the MK6, is giving the 5998's/421a's same amount of current as the 6080/6AS7's get. In stock form the 5998 only gets half as much current as a 6AS7 in a 6AS7 circuit. That's why many notice that their amps run cool with 5998's, they're not getting enough current.
> You can read about this mod in the MK6/MK8 mod thread if you want.
> And like you said, the sonic improvements are significant!
> 
> And yes, I did ask Glenn for help with this mod.




Hi, ST
From the datasheets, the current spec of the 5998 is 2.5 amps, the same as the 6AS7G. Supossed to fit in the same circuits with no mods. I do use an external PS, so current supply is not limited by the preamp PS. Please explain a little bit more what this bias switch does....thanks a lot


----------



## SonicTrance

johnnysound said:


> sonictrance said:
> 
> 
> > I've recently implemented this bias switch myself in my LD MK6. And what it does, at least in the MK6, is giving the 5998's/421a's same amount of current as the 6080/6AS7's get. In stock form the 5998 only gets half as much current as a 6AS7 in a 6AS7 circuit. That's why many notice that their amps run cool with 5998's, they're not getting enough current.
> ...


 
 Hi Johnny,
  
 Yes, the heaters will always draw same amount of current in any amp (2.4A for the 5998). What we're doing with the bias mod is increase the plate/cathode current, which sets the operating point for the tubes. Again, you can read about this mod here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/782183/little-dot-mk8se-mk6-super-mods


----------



## Johnnysound

sonictrance said:


> Hi Johnny,
> 
> Yes, the heaters will always draw same amount of current in any amp (2.4A for the 5998). What we're doing with the bias mod is increase the plate/cathode current, which sets the operating point for the tubes. Again, you can read about this mod here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/782183/little-dot-mk8se-mk6-super-mods




You are kidding me ST !! Your mod is comprehensive replacing pieces in the LD6...Looks great, indeed...


----------



## SonicTrance

johnnysound said:


> sonictrance said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Johnny,
> ...


 
 Well thank you kind sir! It also sounds pretty good if I say so myself.


----------



## whirlwind

sonictrance said:


> johnnysound said:
> 
> 
> > sonictrance said:
> ...


 
 With more plate/cathode current to the 5998...it is really a wonderful sounding tube...it sounds great to me any way....but this really sends it to another level, IMHO.
  
 I use the switch for my 6336 tubes, also.


----------



## SonicTrance

whirlwind said:


> sonictrance said:
> 
> 
> > johnnysound said:
> ...


 
 I agree, to me it's night and day difference!
  
 I've never heard 6336 tubes though. As my amp requires four output tubes I'd need a hefty transformer for that, lol.


----------



## whirlwind

sonictrance said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > sonictrance said:
> ...


 
 Yes it would...man, that would be 20 amps....lol


----------



## larcenasb

I bought a Tung-Sol 7236 a while back but only one channel worked, so it's been sitting in my tube collection as merely a museum piece. I recently ordered two more, and to familiarize myself with the sound, I listened to the defective one with only one channel. After about 15 mins, the defective channel started producing a little sound. If the right was at 100%, the left was around 15%. After 20 mins, both channels are now at 100%! Anyone else have this experience of one channel taking its time waking up from hibernation?


----------



## mcandmar

Never seen that before, but now that you say it i have a Mullard 6080 rolling around my desk with one dead channel, wonder if it can be resuscitated too.  One side measures really strong, but the other has zero output, zip, nada.


----------



## larcenasb

mcandmar said:


> Never seen that before, but now that you say it i have a Mullard 6080 rolling around my desk with one dead channel, wonder if it can be resuscitated too.  One side measures really strong, but the other has zero output, zip, nada.


 
  
 Yeah, I hope your Mullard turns out to be okay! Give it a try!


----------



## MIKELAP

larcenasb said:


> I bought a Tung-Sol 7236 a while back but only one channel worked, so it's been sitting in my tube collection as merely a museum piece. I recently ordered two more, and to familiarize myself with the sound, I listened to the defective one with only one channel. After about 15 mins, the defective channel started producing a little sound. If the right was at 100%, the left was around 15%. After 20 mins, both channels are now at 100%! Anyone else have this experience of one channel taking its time waking up from hibernation?


 
 Have you cleaned the pins sometimes its all the tube needs


----------



## larcenasb

mikelap said:


> Have you cleaned the pins sometimes its all the tube needs


 
  
 I have never! That can be my Sunday morning! Thanks for the idea. What do you use/do to clean?


----------



## MIKELAP

larcenasb said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Have you cleaned the pins sometimes its all the tube needs
> ...


 
 I use a fine grit sandpaper with that your sure you remove all the dirt


----------



## whirlwind

I fixed an old RCA 6AS7G before that was dead..... held a soldering iron on all of the pins on the tube and  "tada"....it worked.......my dad showed me that when i was a kid and bothering him in his tv shop.


----------



## larcenasb

whirlwind said:


> I fixed an old RCA 6AS7G before that was dead..... held a soldering iron on all of the pins on the tube and  "tada"....it worked.......my dad showed me that when i was a kid and bothering him in his tv shop.


 
  
 Interesting. But what does the soldering iron do that fixes the tube?


----------



## whirlwind

larcenasb said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I fixed an old RCA 6AS7G before that was dead..... held a soldering iron on all of the pins on the tube and  "tada"....it worked.......my dad showed me that when i was a kid and bothering him in his tv shop.
> ...


 
 The tube had a little bit of a loose base and I put a soldering iron on each pin to make sure the wires going to the pins were not loose and apparently one or more were.
  
 Then I applied clear finger nail polish to the tube where the glass and base come together to secure the base to the tube.
  
 Tube is still working.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I found it, the 6080WB overview
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here/1350#post_10625059


----------



## oshipao

I am conteplating getting a pair of Philco 6AS7G (believe 50's). These are made by RCA and would therefore sound exactly the same, or should I look for another pair? Budget could be stretched to $150 for a better pair if available.


----------



## gibosi

oshipao said:


> I am conteplating getting a pair of Philco 6AS7G (believe 50's). These are made by RCA and would therefore sound exactly the same, or should I look for another pair? Budget could be stretched to $150 for a better pair if available.


 
  
 Rebranding was very common. And in fact, Philco didn't make tubes. They made radios and televisions. So in this case, they bought a bunch of tubes from RCA, put their own name of them, and used them as replacement parts. So if you want a pair of RCA, these rebranded Philcos should be perfectly fine. But if you want something different, you might want to pass on these....


----------



## oshipao

Thank you for that gibosi,

What is your opinion on the RCA's vs Tung Sols equivalent, i.e. plain 6AS7G, no 5998, 6520, 2399 etc?


----------



## gibosi

oshipao said:


> Thank you for that gibosi,
> 
> What is your opinion on the RCA's vs Tung Sols equivalent, i.e. plain 6AS7G, no 5998, 6520, 2399 etc?


 
  
 Personally, I like the Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G better. But as always, different ears and different gear... YMMV


----------



## attmci

oshipao said:


> Thank you for that gibosi,
> 
> What is your opinion on the RCA's vs Tung Sols equivalent, i.e. plain 6AS7G, no 5998, 6520, 2399 etc?


 

 You need to come here:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/806043/for-6bl7-tube-users


----------



## hodgjy

oshipao said:


> I am conteplating getting a pair of Philco 6AS7G (believe 50's). These are made by RCA and would therefore sound exactly the same, or should I look for another pair? Budget could be stretched to $150 for a better pair if available.


 
 The RCAs are nice sounding tubes--warm, romantic--sort of like the feeling you get after a glass of red wine. But, RCAs are the noisiest 6AS7G tubes I've ever experienced. They are all noisy, but these have more.


----------



## Mechans1

hodgjy said:


> The RCAs are nice sounding tubes--warm, romantic--sort of like the feeling you get after a glass of red wine. But, RCAs are the noisiest 6AS7G tubes I've ever experienced. They are all noisy, but these have more.


 

 I have also found that many of the 6AS7G tubes are noisy, even the 'domino' plate variants.  If your amp can take them 6080s have been less noisy in my experience.  I admit that the 'domino' plate, bigger  bottle tubes,  have overall superior sound.  The problem is getting some that are well behaved and quiet.


----------



## hodgjy

mechans1 said:


> I have also found that many of the 6AS7G tubes are noisy, even the 'domino' plate variants.  If your amp can take them 6080s have been less noisy in my experience.  I admit that the 'domino' plate, bigger  bottle tubes,  have overall superior sound.  The problem is getting some that are well behaved and quiet.


 
 Agree. 6080, 7236, and 5998A are lower noise.
  
 The 6AS7 platform wasn't ever intended to be an audio tube, so I don't have any hard feelings towards noisy tubes.


----------



## Johnnysound

mechans1 said:


> I have also found that many of the 6AS7G tubes are noisy, even the 'domino' plate variants.  If your amp can take them 6080s have been less noisy in my experience.  I admit that the 'domino' plate, bigger  bottle tubes,  have overall superior sound.  The problem is getting some that are well behaved and quiet.




Hi Mechans, I have around 10 pairs of 6AS7Gs (coke bottles, different brands) and none of them are noisy tubes at all. In my setup, of course. I would not characterize this "family" of tubes as noisy per se, and after reading many posts in this thread, it is clear for me that the noise problem is very system dependent. Some preamps, with some specific combination of tubes, are specially difficult, and I was amazed by some people struggling to find a "quiet" 6080 or 6AS7G !! I never found a noisy one, with the exception of one or two used, badly worn out tubes, but that was my fault for buying cheap crap...

And I also have maybe 18 6080s, my favorites are the NOS Mullards, (65' vintage) tied in the first place with the Tung-Sol/Chathams from 62', I think some of the very best 6080s you can find. And, subjectively, maybe the Mullards are more refined, but the americans hit harder with rock and the like... anyway, no 6080 can compare with a great 6AS7G in terms of air, space and three dimensionality....in my gear.


----------



## Johnnysound

oshipao said:


> Thank you for that gibosi,
> 
> What is your opinion on the RCA's vs Tung Sols equivalent, i.e. plain 6AS7G, no 5998, 6520, 2399 etc?




Hi oshipao, I concur with gibosi, one of our true experts here. The Chathams 6AS7G are great sounding tubes. Lets say they are the Tung-Sol "plain" 6AS7Gs, but of great quality, from there up , the 6520 is an "improved" version of the 6AS7G, and the 5998 is the "super tube" with higher specs. Very expensive, by the way. I am still searching for a good pair. But beware that a nice pair of Chathams is not easy to find, and I mean NOS or "almost new" tubes , definitely not cheap. The 6520s are even rarer, and I was lucky to get a pair of new tubes for a reasonable price. As good as the Chathams are, I feel that the 6520s, being very similar in its overall sound, are superior in some subtle definition of detail, and dynamics.

However, oshipao, there is no such thing as the best tube, it all depends on many variables, and I definitely say that the RCAs 6AS7Gs are some of the greatest "classic" tubes, with the sweetest sound and an enormous soundstage, ok., maybe not as defined as others, but if you are entering into this hobby, you simply must hear these great tubes. Try to get NOS ones, fifties production are excellent, and still available...


----------



## hodgjy

johnnysound said:


> Some preamps, with some specific combination of tubes, are specially difficult, and I was amazed by some people struggling to find a "quiet" 6080 or 6AS7G !! I never found a noisy one, with the exception of one or two used, badly worn out tubes, but that was my fault for buying cheap crap...


 
 I wish I had your luck. My "luck" is probably due to my amp being very sensitive to tubes (I'd say 7 out of 10 tubes make noise in it) and my extremely sensitive hearing. I can't hear tube noise when the music is playing or if there is sufficient background noise in my home, but when it's quiet and I concentrate, I can hear the tubes making noise. Even my beloved 5998 tubes have a low level noise, but my RCA 6AS7Gs are by far the worst offenders. Heck, even one of my Tung-Sol 6AS7Gs is very noisy--I can hear it heating the filaments with my ear next to the tube, which then the amp picks up the noise and transfers it to my headphones.


----------



## attmci

hodgjy said:


> I wish I had your luck. My "luck" is probably due to my amp being very sensitive to tubes (I'd say 7 out of 10 tubes make noise in it) and my extremely sensitive hearing. I can't hear tube noise when the music is playing or if there is sufficient background noise in my home, but when it's quiet and I concentrate, I can hear the tubes making noise. Even my beloved 5998 tubes have a low level noise, but my RCA 6AS7Gs are by far the worst offenders. Heck, even one of my Tung-Sol 6AS7Gs is very noisy--I can hear it heating the filaments with my ear next to the tube, which then the amp picks up the noise and transfers it to my headphones.


 

 @Hodgjy, I am with Johnny. You may have problem with your amp.


----------



## mordy

Hej Oshipao,
  
 I have tried numerous 6AS7G variants and 6080 variants. If you want something less expensive that sounds better than the RCA 6AS7G tubes, try the 6AS7GA (any brand).
  
 BUT, the very inexpensive 6BL7 sounds better than most, if not all, 6AS7 type tubes. This tube draws 1.5A, versus 2.5A for the 6AS7. Combining the 6BL7 with a 6SN7 tube, using a dual adapter, draws 1.5A + 0.6A = 2.1A, which is compatible with any amp using 6AS7 power tubes.
  
 This combination is outstanding in sound quality and well worth trying.
  
 Hi hodgjy,
  
 Have you tried a Faraday cage to eliminate tube noise? Basically, you can use an inexpensive wire mesh basket or similar, and place over the tubes.


----------



## hodgjy

attmci said:


> @Hodgjy, I am with Johnny. You may have problem with your amp.


 
 It's a Woo. Some tubes are quiet, where other are noisy. I believe, maybe incorrectly, that if some tubes make no noise, the amp may be ok.
  
 It's not a big deal because that amp rarely gets any use these days. I've significantly upgraded from it.


----------



## hodgjy

mordy said:


> Hi hodgjy,
> 
> Have you tried a Faraday cage to eliminate tube noise? Basically, you can use an inexpensive wire mesh basket or similar, and place over the tubes.


 
 I haven't. It's not a major deal---see the post above.


----------



## oshipao

johnnysound said:


> Hi oshipao, I concur with gibosi, one of our true experts here. The Chathams 6AS7G are great sounding tubes. Lets say they are the Tung-Sol "plain" 6AS7Gs, but of great quality, from there up , the 6520 is an "improved" version of the 6AS7G, and the 5998 is the "super tube" with higher specs. Very expensive, by the way. I am still searching for a good pair. But beware that a nice pair of Chathams is not easy to find, and I mean NOS or "almost new" tubes , definitely not cheap. The 6520s are even rarer, and I was lucky to get a pair of new tubes for a reasonable price. As good as the Chathams are, I feel that the 6520s, being very similar in its overall sound, are superior in some subtle definition of detail, and dynamics.
> 
> However, oshipao, there is no such thing as the best tube, it all depends on many variables, and I definitely say that the RCAs 6AS7Gs are some of the greatest "classic" tubes, with the sweetest sound and an enormous soundstage, ok., maybe not as defined as others, but if you are entering into this hobby, you simply must hear these great tubes. Try to get NOS ones, fifties production are excellent, and still available...




Thank you.

Yes, I am not really willing splashing out almost $300 for a NOS pair of 5998. I guess I will have to try both, perphaps I end up liking the RCAs


----------



## Mechans1

I have found some plain jane 6AS7G coke bottle tubes that are quiet.  The 5998 types I own have mostly been a little noisy to ridiculous burned out pieces of junk with all sorts of issues.  The Western Electric 421A  have issues, again from over use and people passing garbage tubes to one another.  When reasonably quiet, the sonics are very pretty and they produce 3 dimensional, spatial  sound stages.  They do sound better than the 6080 with qualities described previously in this thread.
 A Farady cage captures the EMI  and other interfering signals.  Some people live in areas that have a lot of that stuff  in their environment.  A copper cage is very effective.
 My problem is that my amp has decided to play one channel at a time and the company that made it is defunct.  If anyone knows where to get a SinglePower amp fixed ,please let me know.


----------



## mcandmar

Here is an interesting tube for you collectors out there.   I have a few Gold Aero tubes in 6CG7 and 6DJ8 form and they all test with amazingly high emissions and perfectly matched sections. From what i was able to find out they cherry picked the best tubes they could find from a variety of manufacturers, then graded and branded them.  Granted they started life as lowly GE 5998A's but i could'nt resist picking one up to see how it performs..  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172262170880


----------



## leftside

mechans1 said:


> I have found some plain jane 6AS7G coke bottle tubes that are quiet.  The 5998 types I own have mostly been a little noisy to ridiculous burned out pieces of junk with all sorts of issues.  The Western Electric 421A  have issues, again from over use and people passing garbage tubes to one another.  When reasonably quiet, the sonics are very pretty and they produce 3 dimensional, spatial  sound stages.  They do sound better than the 6080 with qualities described previously in this thread.
> A Farady cage captures the EMI  and other interfering signals.  Some people live in areas that have a lot of that stuff  in their environment.  A copper cage is very effective.
> My problem is that my amp has decided to play one channel at a time and the company that made it is defunct.  If anyone knows where to get a SinglePower amp fixed ,please let me know.


 
 You shouldn't need the manufacturer to fix your amp. Any decent audio technician should be able to do the job.


----------



## oshipao

mordy said:


> Hej Oshipao,
> 
> I have tried numerous 6AS7G variants and 6080 variants. If you want something less expensive that sounds better than the RCA 6AS7G tubes, try the 6AS7GA (any brand).
> 
> ...




Hej Mordy 

Maybe I'll get to those tubes further down the road. I am trying to keep things simple at the moment without adapters. Went ahead and ordered a pair of Tung Sol 6AS7G and a pair of Ken Rad 6SN7GT. Let's see how these will fare to begin with.


----------



## Mechans1

oshipao said:


> Hej Mordy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I share your philosophy/approach.  The old audiophile dictum is to keep parts and interfaces to a minimum -as well as  to keep signal paths short and simple.  If someone designs an amp around 6BL7 tubes I would very interested in hearing it.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> I share your philosophy/approach.  The old audiophile dictum is to keep parts and interfaces to a minimum -as well as  to keep signal paths short and simple.  If someone designs an amp around 6BL7 tubes I would very interested in hearing it.


 
  
 I suspect that there is just not enough stock of 6BL7 for a major manufacturer such as Woo to use these tubes. But a custom builder has much more freedom to use uncommon tubes. And, for example, Glenn has built a a number of amps designed to use the 6BL7. You might find this review interesting:
  
  http://www.tweak-fi.com/apps/blog/show/42754587-building-a-reference-system-part-2-glenn-s-headphone-amplifier


----------



## lukeap69

mechans1 said:


> I share your philosophy/approach.  The old audiophile dictum is to keep parts and interfaces to a minimum -as well as  to keep signal paths short and simple.  If someone designs an amp around 6BL7 tubes I would very interested in hearing it.


 
  
 As @gibosi said Glenn had designed some OTL amps using six-6BL7's and I believe the latest is mine. It is a wonderful amp and the almost one year wait is well worth it. See my sig for the link of my amp.


----------



## JazzVinyl

lukeap69 said:


> As @gibosi
> said Glenn had designed some OTL amps using six-6BL7's and I believe the latest is mine. It is a wonderful amp and the almost one year wait is well worth it. See my sig for the link of my amp.




Indeed! A Glenn amp designed around 6x 6BL7's as powers!!!

Could it get any better?


----------



## Mechans1

jazzvinyl said:


> Indeed! A Glenn amp designed around 6x 6BL7's as powers!!!
> 
> Could it get any better?


 

 So how do I get to hear it? 
 Can these 6  X  6BL7s drive a speaker as well, even without output transformers?


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> So how do I get to hear it?
> Can these 6  X  6BL7s drive a speaker as well, even without output transformers?


 
  
 As Glenn is a custom builder, you cannot simply go to an audio shop and try one out. If you want to hear one, you would have to contact someone who has such an amp and make arrangements.
  
 To the best of my knowledge, six 6BL7s cannot drive loudspeakers. The six 6BL7s simply take the place of two 6AS7s in a standard OTL.


----------



## Mechans1

gibosi said:


> As Glenn is a custom builder, you cannot simply go to an audio shop and try one out. If you want to hear one, you would have to contact someone who has such an amp and make arrangements.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, six 6BL7s cannot drive loudspeakers. The six 6BL7s simply take the place of two 6AS7s in a standard OTL.


 
 I had been told about  Glenn's amps all being custom some time back.  I was wondering if the tubes had been used in some other application.  I saw that Glenn  can use a variety of tubes to build an amp, 6 X 6SN7s  to equal the 6 X 6BL7s to equal 2 X  6AS7   etc..etc... but only after I asked that question.
 .


----------



## lukeap69

mechans1 said:


> I had been told about  Glenn's amps all being custom some time back.  I was wondering if the tubes had been used in some other application.  I saw that Glenn  can use a variety of tubes to build an amp, 6 X 6SN7s  to equal the 6 X 6BL7s to equal 2 X  6AS7   etc..etc... but only after I asked that question.
> .



 


Not sure what you mean by ' I was wondering if the tubes had been used in some other application'.

Glenn will build your amp depending on your requirement. For example, I have asked him what would be best for my HD800, he recommended C3g for driver and 6BL7 for output. So I have 6 numbers of sockets for output tubes. In order for the amp to be flexible, the amp can also run 2 or 4 number of 6AS7's or 2 number of 6336 for low Z cans. In my experience so far, 4 number of Chatham 6AS7 had been best for my Oppo PM-2.

Other OTL amps, like @whirlwind 's, have the option to use C3g or 6SN7 driver tubes. Although he needs adapter to run quad 6BL7 (or 6BX7) tubes as power. Glenn can also supply some tubes he has if you prefer or just buy the amp from him and source your own tubes. He is that flexible. The only thing is, there are quite a few in the queue so it will take some time if you want to get one.


----------



## Mechans1

What I meant was where else are 6BL7s used?   They are NOS but there might have been some other audio  gear where the character of the tube has an obvious effect on the sound that equipment makes.
 One rather indelicate question is how expensive are Glenn's amps?  I would guess it depends in part on what you ask for,  I am rather curious about a general price point or  range.
 .I have a lot of tubes, far too many, but most were acquired for speaker amp systems.  The 6SN7 option has my attention albeit somewhat pedestrian compared with some of the other tubes mentioned. ( I would have guessed the 6SL7 as a potential power tube because it has higher gain than the SN7.)   I own a 6SN7 pre amp and an integrated that used them in addition to my headphone amp.  That got me started on rolling and I went semi crazy.
  It may sound like bragging, but in truth it is foolish, to have so many tubes.  I  did a quick count of just  my Sylvania Ws a favorite of mine, I have at least 33. They represent a small fraction of the total 6SN7s. I wonder if you could tailor your sound using a mix of 6SN7s?
 I  have plenty of the noval mini dual triodes like 12AU7s etc.  I know Tim Paravincinni (sp?) built a speaker amp for  DCS using 20 X  12AX7s.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> What I meant was where else are 6BL7s used?   They are NOS but there might have been some other audio  gear where the character of the tube has an obvious effect on the sound that equipment makes.
> One rather indelicate question is how expensive are Glenn's amps?  I would guess it depends in part on what you ask for,  I am rather curious about a general price point or  range.
> .I have a lot of tubes, far too many, but most were acquired for speaker amp systems.  The 6SN7 option has my attention albeit somewhat pedestrian compared with some of the other tubes mentioned. ( I would have guessed the 6SL7 as a potential power tube because it has higher gain than the SN7.)   I own a 6SN7 pre amp and an integrated that used them in addition to my headphone amp.  That got me started on rolling and I went semi crazy.
> It may sound like bragging, but in truth it is foolish, to have so many tubes.  I  did a quick count of just  my Sylvania Ws a favorite of mine, I have at least 33. They represent a small fraction of the total 6SN7s. I wonder if you could tailor your sound using a mix of 6SN7s?
> I  have plenty of the noval mini dual triodes like 12AU7s etc.  I know Tim Paravincinni (sp?) built a speaker amp for  DCS using 20 X  12AX7s.


 
  
 6BL7s were developed for use in televisions, specifically to handle the power requirements of larger screens with higher resolutions. As they replaced 6SN7s in order to meet the requirements of larger screens you might consider the 6BL7 to be 6SN7 on steroids. But again, these tubes are not available in sufficient numbers to be used by Woo or any other large scale manufacturer. You will find them only in custom amps.
  
 It is my understanding that when selecting power tubes for use in OTLs, it is not gain but current that matters. For example, a 6SL7 simply cannot move enough current to drive a pair of HD650s. The 6BL7 can move considerably current than a 6SN7, but not as much as a 6AS7. However, running multiple pairs of 6BL7s compares very favorably with the 6AS7.
  
 If you want to know more about Glenn's amps, I suggest you contact him directly. His handle here is *2359glenn*. I don't know for sure, but I believe you can get a basic 6AS7/6SN7/5U4G OTL for around $700. And the price goes up from there, with 300B/C3g with output transformers going for around $4,000, I think. But again, don't quote me on these prices. These are just guesses on my part...


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> Hej Oshipao,
> 
> I have tried numerous 6AS7G variants and 6080 variants. If you want something less expensive that sounds better than the RCA 6AS7G tubes, try the 6AS7GA (any brand).
> 
> ...


----------



## lukeap69

gibosi said:


> If you want to know more about Glenn's amps, I suggest you contact him directly. His handle here is *2359glenn*. I don't know for sure,* but I believe you can get a basic 6AS7/6SN7/5U4G OTL for around $700*. And the price goes up from there, with 300B/C3g with output transformers going for around $4,000, I think. But again, don't quote me on these prices. These are just guesses on my part...


 
  
 The bold statement seems accurate Ken plus shipping and without tubes. Mine is fitted Lundahl transformer and Goldpoint attenuator for additional 500+ USD.


----------



## Mechans1

Thank you for the general price range mentioned.  The only 2 OTLs I know of use 6AS7Gs and 6C33Bs by  Atmasphere and  Joule Electra.  They seem attractive for their power and rugged build quality.  The amp had been using  an OTL with 6AS7Gs and will work with a variety of others  e.g. the WE 421A.. 
 The miniature I mentioned,  the mundane 12AU7  does  pass on a lot of current.  It does have a number of good to excellent variants.  They are mostly if not all old stock tubes like the 7316 , I really like these , all made in Heerlen Holland during the late 50s to 60s with Philips creased tops and Philips  date codes, 
 Look for the right triangle and the CTL  l# date code.if you are serious about it , they were frequently made for computers and business machines and many of the real ones will be marked as a Texas instruments or Beckman etc,  These are the real deal. 
 The sound well I have sort of given up on that, I will say it is  my preference in that group. I will allow myself to  say that 7316 tubes produce some of the best 3D/Holographic imagery I have heard in the right environment..


----------



## gibosi

"....the mundane 12AU7  does  pass on a lot of current...."
  
 I am not sure we are talking about the same thing...
  
 According to the datasheet for the 12AU7, when used as a class A amplifier, the plate current is about 10 ma.
  
 http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/093/1/12AU7A.pdf
  
 Whereas, the plate current for the 6AS7 is 125 ma.
  
 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/6as7g-1.pdf


----------



## Mechans1

gibosi said:


> "....the mundane 12AU7  does  pass on a lot of current...."
> 
> I am not sure we are talking about the same thing...
> 
> ...


 
 What you are saying is most probably the case. I  am no EE.
   I think I am talking about voltage gain and amplification.


----------



## gibosi

mechans1 said:


> What you are saying is most probably the case. I  am no EE.
> I think I am talking about voltage gain and amplification.


 
  
 I am not an EE either... Not even close... But I think I kind of get the gist of what's going on.... 
  
 As I was trying to point out earlier, when selecting power tubes for use in OTLs, it is not voltage gain but current that matters. 
  
 For comparison purposes, the plate current of a 6SN7 is also about 10ma, like the 12AU7, whereas the plate current of a 6BL7 is 40 ma, which is significantly higher. Again, a 6SN7 on steroids. Three 6BL7 in parallel can provide 120 ma, very close to that of a 6AS7, and thus, three pairs of 6BL7 can be substituted for one pair of 6AS7. And in fact, with the exception of low-Z inefficient headphones, even two pairs do a nice job.
  
 So it is the relatively high plate current and the fact that the 6BL7 sounds good that makes it a viable choice in an OTL. And I think it is unfortunate that these tubes are not available in sufficient numbers to be used by Woo or any other large scale manufacturer. Having choices is always good, IMHO.


----------



## Johnnysound

Russian Mullards ?  Rebranded ?   For me, pure fakes...and this guy knows it for sure. 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Mullard-NOS-3-Tubes-421A-5998-7236-6080-Little-Bear-P8-Upgrade-Component-/172264901551?
  
 Look at the UFO invasion...


----------



## adeadcrab

johnnysound said:


> Russian Mullards ?  Rebranded ?   For me, pure fakes...and this guy knows it for sure.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Mullard-NOS-3-Tubes-421A-5998-7236-6080-Little-Bear-P8-Upgrade-Component-/172264901551?
> 
> Look at the UFO invasion...


 
 for sure Russian Svetlanas..


----------



## attmci

johnnysound said:


> Russian Mullards ?  Rebranded ?   For me, pure fakes...and this guy knows it for sure.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-Mullard-NOS-3-Tubes-421A-5998-7236-6080-Little-Bear-P8-Upgrade-Component-/172264901551?
> 
> Look at the UFO invasion...


 

 Not sure if s/he knows. S/he also has a bunch of Bendix 6080WB and Cetron 7236 for sale.


----------



## Johnnysound

attmci said:


> Not sure if s/he knows. S/he also has a bunch of Bendix 6080WB and Cetron 7236 for sale.




Ok. Maybe you are right, some merchants sell tubes and other stuff not knowing very much about it. But, if you sell various types of tubes, and you own a nice tube preamp, and you even have a good tester and provide test results, then come on, you know something about tubes, and you MUST know these are not Mullards. Even worse, if you are located in the UK, (as the seller is) we must assume he knows that there is no such thing as a Mullard stamped 6AS7G, coke bottle, as far as I know. Maybe with british and/or european codes. If that tube exists, I want a pair !!


----------



## attmci

johnnysound said:


> Ok. Maybe you are right, some merchants sell tubes and other stuff not knowing very much about it. But, if you sell various types of tubes, and you own a nice tube preamp, and you even have a good tester and provide test results, then come on, you know something about tubes, and you MUST know these are not Mullards. Even worse, if you are located in the UK, (as the seller is) we must assume he knows that there is no such thing as a Mullard stamped 6AS7G, coke bottle, as far as I know. Maybe with british and/or european codes. If that tube exists, I want a pair !!


 

 Drop him a line if you are so angry. LOL
  
 I believe advertising a 6336B as 6080/5998 could cause more serious damage.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6336B-Tung-Sol-NOS-high-temperature-voltage-base-6080-5998-No-reserve-5-day-/172265708661?hash=item281bd61c75:g:ZlIAAOSwjXRXay7B
  
 BTW, I think the seller is from CA.


----------



## oshipao

Just got my NOS Tung Sol 6AS7G and popped them in. I noticed that there was a lot of rattle coming from the base of the tube, more so than my Svetlanas. Is this normal?

And when I started the amp one channel in my headphones got struck by a loud pop! They seem fine though. I am leaving the amp on without any headphones connected at the moment.


----------



## gibosi

oshipao said:


> Just got my NOS Tung Sol 6AS7G and popped them in. I noticed that there was a lot of rattle coming from the base of the tube, more so than my Svetlanas. Is this normal?


 
  
 While not normal, it is not uncommon for there to be pieces of mica and even glass loose in these tubes. Most of the time it doesn't seem to be a problem, so if the tube is working fine, nothing to worry about.
  


oshipao said:


> And when I started the amp one channel in my headphones got struck by a loud pop! They seem fine though. I am leaving the amp on without any headphones connected at the moment.


 
  
 I assume you have an OTL amp?
  
 To protect your ears and your headphones when using an OTL amp:
  
 Before turning the amp on, check to make sure that the headphones are not plugged in.
  
 Turn the amp on and wait for about 5 minutes to allow the tubes to heat up to normal operating temperatures and stabilize.
  
 And then plug the headphones into the amp.
  
 Turning the amp off is just the reverse. Unplug the headphones first, and then turn it off.
  
 It is normal for these tubes to pop and make other noises while heating up and cooling down. Further, these are the times when tubes are most likely to fail. And sometimes these popping sounds are loud enough that they can blow headphone drivers and even damage your ears. So be careful. Protect your ears and your headphones.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> While not normal, it is not uncommon for there to be pieces of mica and even glass loose in these tubes. Most of the time it doesn't seem to be a problem, so if the tube is working fine, nothing to worry about.




The same is true for pieces of cement loose inside the base.


----------



## MIKELAP

oskari said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > While not normal, it is not uncommon for there to be pieces of mica and even glass loose in these tubes. Most of the time it doesn't seem to be a problem, so if the tube is working fine, nothing to worry about.
> ...


 
 Have several tubes with bits of glass in them never had an issue


----------



## oshipao

gibosi said:


> While not normal, it is not uncommon for there to be pieces of mica and even glass loose in these tubes. Most of the time it doesn't seem to be a problem, so if the tube is working fine, nothing to worry about.
> 
> 
> I assume you have an OTL amp?
> ...




Thank you gibosi,

Yes, I have an OTL amp, and the tubes seems fine (although a little noisier than the Svetlanas) Okay, I will change my ways and do as you recommend


----------



## hodgjy

oshipao said:


> Just got my NOS Tung Sol 6AS7G and popped them in. I noticed that there was a lot of rattle coming from the base of the tube, more so than my Svetlanas. Is this normal?
> 
> And when I started the amp one channel in my headphones got struck by a loud pop! They seem fine though. I am leaving the amp on without any headphones connected at the moment.


 
 I've had many Tung-Sols and Chathams, and most of them had a rattle. It seems to be more common in these brands (same tooling facility). I've never had a problem with the rattle. I even have a Chatham where the plastic base came completely unglued from the glass. Still works fine.


----------



## oshipao

hodgjy said:


> I've had many Tung-Sols and Chathams, and most of them had a rattle. It seems to be more common in these brands (same tooling facility). I've never had a problem with the rattle. I even have a Chatham where the plastic base came completely unglued from the glass. Still works fine.




Hi hodgjy,

I understand. Is it normal with pops when heating up? I almost feel afraid one would get one when listening.


----------



## oshipao

Just found this:

"Arcing power tube socket

The B+ may be arcing across the surfaces of the output tube sockets themselves. This is often the case when an amplifier has a lot of dust and dirt inside it. In some cases, the arc can be started by a few seconds of playing without a load on the amp, which causes large spikes on the plates of the output tubes. Contamination of the tube socket surface can let an arc get started, and the arc itself burns the surface of a plastic tube socket body. This leaves a carbon residue in the path of the arc, burned remains of the trail of the arc; the carbon residue is itself somewhat conductive, so in the future, there is a ready made path for the next arc. You have to replace the socket if this is the case."

Could this have been the case? :confused_face_2:


----------



## gibosi

oshipao said:


> Just found this:
> 
> "Arcing power tube socket
> 
> ...


 
  
 As I mentioned earlier, popping, creaking and pinging sounds are quite common with 6AS7G. These tubes have 2.5 amp heaters and they get very hot. And as the tube heats up, these are the sounds the interior metal parts make as they expand. And in my experience the 5998 is the noisiest of all.
  
 Now, I have no knowledge regarding the physical condition of your amp, dust and dirt, and so on, but again, even in a squeaky-clean amp, these tubes are going to creak, groan and pop as they heat-up... and as they cool down. It reminds me of the sounds an automobile engine makes after it is turned off.
  
 Again, my advice, wait several minutes for these tubes to heat up and stabilize. And then connect your headphones, relax and enjoy.


----------



## oshipao

gibosi said:


> As I mentioned earlier, popping, creaking and pinging sounds are quite common with 6AS7G. These tubes have 2.5 amp heaters and they get very hot. And as the tube heats up, these are the sounds the interior metal parts make as they expand. And in my experience the 5998 is the noisiest of all.
> 
> Now, I have no knowledge regarding the physical condition of your amp, dust and dirt, and so on, but again, even in a squeaky-clean amp, these tubes are going to creak, groan and pop as they heat-up... and as they cool down. It reminds me of the sounds an automobile engine makes after it is turned off.
> 
> Again, my advice, wait several minutes for these tubes to heat up and stabilize. And then connect your headphones, relax and enjoy.




Sorry,

I now understand that an "arc" is lightning, and none have occured to my knowledge. It should be as clean as they come, so you are probably correct in your assesment. Much obliged


----------



## hodgjy

oshipao said:


> Hi hodgjy,
> 
> I understand. Is it normal with pops when heating up? I almost feel afraid one would get one when listening.


 
 A few pops during warm up is normal as the materials expand from heat. If they continue for 30 minutes, then I'd consider a new tube. The pings won't hurt anything except your mind.


----------



## oshipao

hodgjy said:


> A few pops during warm up is normal as the materials expand from heat. If they continue for 30 minutes, then I'd consider a new tube. The pings won't hurt anything except your mind.




Thanks hodgjy,

Did some more listening this morning, and no pops after 5 min when I did plug my headphones in. So all is good I presume.

One silly question, are the pops volume dependant, i.e. changes with the volume?


----------



## hodgjy

oshipao said:


> Thanks hodgjy,
> 
> Did some more listening this morning, and no pops after 5 min when I did plug my headphones in. So all is good I presume.
> 
> One silly question, are the pops volume dependant, i.e. changes with the volume?


 
 I guess it depends on the amp design--and I don't remember what my amps did with pinging tubes because it's been a while.  They were never loud at all, so I had no worries of any damage to my headphones or ears.  They were certainly no louder than listening volume of the music.
  
 All vacuum tubes are microphonic, so they can pick up noise and transfer them to the headphones. Tapping the table can even transfer noise with some very sensitive tubes.


----------



## whirlwind

I have three different sets of 5998 tubes
  
 All three sets stop pinging after about 7 minutes in my amp.
  
 If i use them fairly often, i may not have any pings or pops.......if they sit for a good while, I will have pings and pops for a few minutes.


----------



## oshipao

hodgjy said:


> I guess it depends on the amp design--and I don't remember what my amps did with pinging tubes because it's been a while.  They were never loud at all, so I had no worries of any damage to my headphones or ears.  They were certainly no louder than listening volume of the music.
> 
> All vacuum tubes are microphonic, so they can pick up noise and transfer them to the headphones. Tapping the table can even transfer noise with some very sensitive tubes.


 
 Ah,
  
 I think we are talking about different things here. The pings you mention I do not experience, it was more loud pops. Not something you would like to have in your ears. Note, this only happened when headphones was plugged in from the beginning, or plugged in too soon.


----------



## Badas

oshipao said:


> Ah,
> 
> I think we are talking about different things here. The pings you mention I do not experience, it was more loud pops. Not something you would like to have in your ears. Note, this only happened when headphones was plugged in from the beginning, or plugged in too soon.


 

 That is usually power sitting in a transformer and getting the power discharged as soon as HP's are plugged in.
  
 Try this and this is what I do myself. When turning off your system turn off your tube amp but leave the HP's plugged in and music feed into the amp. You will hear music playing even tho the amp is turned off. The music will get quieter and quieter. Do this for 5 minutes then pack up the rest off the gear. What you have just done is discharged all the power from the transformers and tubes. When you start up the next time you shouldn't have a problem.
  
 Don't adjust the volume when turning off. Let it carry on playing.
 When starting up have HP's plugged in from the start. Tube amps always want to have a output. Whether it is speakers or HP's.


----------



## hodgjy

oshipao said:


> Ah,
> 
> I think we are talking about different things here. The pings you mention I do not experience, it was more loud pops. Not something you would like to have in your ears. Note, this only happened when headphones was plugged in from the beginning, or plugged in too soon.


 
 We may be talking about the same thing. It's common for tubes to make loud pops and pings that are audible in the headphones during warm up.


----------



## gibosi

badas said:


> That is usually power sitting in a transformer and getting the power discharged as soon as HP's are plugged in.
> 
> Try this and this is what I do myself. When turning off your system turn off your tube amp but leave the HP's plugged in and music feed into the amp. You will hear music playing even tho the amp is turned off. The music will get quieter and quieter. Do this for 5 minutes then pack up the rest off the gear. What you have just done is discharged all the power from the transformers and tubes. When you start up the next time you shouldn't have a problem.
> 
> ...


 
  
 [Bold above mine]
  
*No! An OTL (Output TransformerLess) amp is very different than an Output Transformer Coupled amp such as the Woo WA22* . Yes, transformer coupled amps can be damaged if they are operated without a load. But it doesn't hurt an OTL at all.
  
 In an OTL amp, the headphones are directly connected to the plates of the 6AS7, with nothing in between. Leaving the headphones plugged in from the start, the start-up surge can easily damage headphones. This is not just theoretical. It has happened. And repairing or replacing headphones can be expensive. 
  
 So again, for those who own OTL amps, never turn the amp on or off with the headphones plugged in. And again, after turning the amp on, wait several minutes, until the output tubes have reached their normal operating temperatures and stabilized, before plugging in the headphones.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> badas said:
> 
> 
> > That is usually power sitting in a transformer and getting the power discharged as soon as HP's are plugged in.
> ...


 
 Yeah, I never turn off my amp with HP plugged in....Glenn OTL.
  
 I always wait for about 10-15 minutes when using 5998 tubes....letting them warm up before plugging in my cans.
  
 That may be a tad long...but I always error on the side of caution.


----------



## Badas

gibosi said:


> [Bold above mine]
> 
> *No! An OTL (Output TransformerLess) amp is very different than an Output Transformer Coupled amp such as the Woo WA22* . Yes, transformer coupled amps can be damaged if they are operated without a load. But it doesn't hurt an OTL at all.
> 
> ...


 

 Geez. I didn't know it was OTL. Thanks for correcting me. Right you are.


----------



## Mechans1

Man am I confused.  The first bit of confusion is the notion that it is the transformer , which continues to provide power making low level music via residual power from the transformer after the amp is turned off.  I am not an EE or even an ee or e, but I thought that power came from the electrolytic capacitors. 
 After reading the strongly worded cautionary statement regarding about not  leaving headphones attached,.  However my personal history seems to  contradict this thinking . I have never experienced nasties between HP and the plate of the power tube in an OTL design.
 What kind of damage occurs?  I have should have been destroying my headphones for years, yet they sound pretty good to me barring normal wear. My current HP system construct is a SinglePower Extreme (an OTL) and either Sennheiser HD 700s  the AKG KXX.  There is the occasional fairly rare guest appearance by the Beyer DT 770 Pro 32 Ohm. 
 Oddly I have never heard or read of  HP immolations or pyrotechnics.  Yet  I  know I will of course unplug my HPs. I have as bad a case of audiophilitis nervosa as the next guy!
 Seriously is there an idiots guide to a basic understanding    home  electronics  for home and perhaps (only if absolutely neccesarry} pro audio..
 .


----------



## adeadcrab

Just to chime in, I have a La Figaro 339 OTL amp, and I have always turned the amp on/off with headphones unplugged. Never had issues with arcs that way.

 Also re: pinging sounds, the glass of a tube expands when warming up and makes ping sounds. Some 'lesser' quality tubes will warm up for a minute or two (svetlana UFO 6AS7G), while tubes with thicker glass (Bendix 6080WB) will make pinging noises for 20+ minutes until the glass has fully expanded.


----------



## gibosi

Like many things in life, many have never had a problem leaving their headphones plugged in while turning their OTL on and off. However, I personally know of two people who have. In each case, they powered up their OTL, a power tube shorted and the current surge took out their headphones.
  
 Powering up and powering down is stressful on vacuum tubes and these are the times when they most often fail, sometimes catastrophically. And of course, you never know in advance. So I always advise caution. The best practice is to be unplugged when turning on and off. Be careful out there....
  
 Cheers


----------



## leftside

I like the sound of tubes warming up  Then again, I mainly listen to vinyl when using my headphone amp and don't mind the odd crackle at the beginning of an LP or inbetween tracks.


----------



## Mechans1

adeadcrab said:


> Just to chime in, I have a La Figaro 339 OTL amp, and I have always turned the amp on/off with headphones unplugged. Never had issues with arcs that way.
> 
> Also re: pinging sounds, the glass of a tube expands when warming up and makes ping sounds. Some 'lesser' quality tubes will warm up for a minute or two (svetlana UFO 6AS7G), while tubes with thicker glass (Bendix 6080WB) will make pinging noises for 20+ minutes until the glass has fully expanded.


 

 Does the Bendix 6080WB go by any other name.  I ask because Bendix had purpose built tubes for fairly specific applications (read  as  'uses' which is what the word meant before smart phones)  I would like to buy a pair and would appreciate any help finding dealers who sell them.
  
 Somewhere in the bottom of a box I own some Bendix tubes that I was told were super EL-84s.  They are remarkable tubes construction wise.  These tubes have very  thick ceramic spacers and the thick glass as noted.  The problem is they have a different pin out and resemble 6AQ5s electrically. They were a throw in freebee so no financial loss.


----------



## adeadcrab

mechans1 said:


> Does the Bendix 6080WB go by any other name.


 
 The 6080WB tubes I have are rebranded as Tung Sol.

 I have actually dropped one (!!) accidentally from standing height and it is still ok: rock solid construction..


----------



## rosgr63

mechans1 said:


> Man am I confused.  The first bit of confusion is the notion that it is the transformer , which continues to provide power making low level music via residual power from the transformer after the amp is turned off.  I am not an EE or even an ee or e, but I thought that power came from the electrolytic capacitors.
> After reading the strongly worded cautionary statement regarding about not  leaving headphones attached,.  However my personal history seems to  contradict this thinking . I have never experienced nasties between HP and the plate of the power tube in an OTL design.
> What kind of damage occurs?  I have should have been destroying my headphones for years, yet they sound pretty good to me barring normal wear. My current HP system construct is a SinglePower Extreme (an OTL) and either Sennheiser HD 700s  the AKG KXX.  There is the occasional fairly rare guest appearance by the Beyer DT 770 Pro 32 Ohm.
> Oddly I have never heard or read of  HP immolations or pyrotechnics.  Yet  I  know I will of course unplug my HPs. I have as bad a case of audiophilitis nervosa as the next guy!
> ...


 
  
 Long ago, I experienced 5998's arcing over on one one of my SP Extremes but I was very lucky and no damage occurred.
 Others using different amps have not been lucky and the HP driver was blown.
  
 Warm up noises have not been a problem for me.


----------



## whirlwind

rosgr63 said:


> mechans1 said:
> 
> 
> > Man am I confused.  The first bit of confusion is the notion that it is the transformer , which continues to provide power making low level music via residual power from the transformer after the amp is turned off.  I am not an EE or even an ee or e, but I thought that power came from the electrolytic capacitors.
> ...


 
 Glenn warned me about this could happen.....this is why I always have headphones unplugged for a few minutes for my tubes to warm up....and always unplug before shutting down...also believe this is what Glenn recommended to me.
  
 I run the 5998 & the C3gs often in my amp.....my amp has the 5998 switch and runs C3g natively, without adapters, I make sure I have my 5998 switch in position before powering up my amp.....it is definitely one of my favorite combos....even with the Grado RS1
  

  
 Listening to some Buddy Guy right now....wonderful.


----------



## rosgr63

Nice photo, great amp.
  
 Better safe than sorry.


----------



## Johnnysound

gibosi said:


> As I mentioned earlier, popping, creaking and pinging sounds are quite common with 6AS7G. These tubes have 2.5 amp heaters and they get very hot. And as the tube heats up, these are the sounds the interior metal parts make as they expand. And in my experience the 5998 is the noisiest of all.
> 
> Now, I have no knowledge regarding the physical condition of your amp, dust and dirt, and so on, but again, even in a squeaky-clean amp, these tubes are going to creak, groan and pop as they heat-up... and as they cool down. It reminds me of the sounds an automobile engine makes after it is turned off.
> 
> Again, my advice, wait several minutes for these tubes to heat up and stabilize. And then connect your headphones, relax and enjoy.




Hi Gibosi, I never heard all that strange noises from my 6AS7Gs, maybe some pops as the tubes heat up. They reach operating temperature after, say, five minutes, but I feel that top sound is only achieved after a minimum of half an hour playing music. I know this does not make sense from a technical point of view, the tube reaches its operating temperature and then stays more or less in that temperature, but what about the preamp, the other circuits involved, and the input tubes ? We are talking about an OTL preamp, in which the 6AS7Gs are output tubes that provide current to drive headphones, and in my setup as a pure preamp, to drive two mono, SS power amps. In this role, it is an extremely powerful preamp, however compatible with the power amp inputs, it clearly dominates the scene and the sound of the tubes are absolutely predominant. I quickly set the amps (NAD 2400 in mono, 450 watts) at 25% power, and this little audio wisdom saved the life of my beloved speakers, some day when I powered up the preamp unaware that the amps were left on from the night before, producing a freaking loud POP that would have kill the speakers for shure, if the amps were set for 100% power. In fact, this same NAD amps have blown two tweeters, one mid and one 8 inch woofer before, with my previous speakers, because its "power envelope" circuit allows dynamic power pulses 3 or 4 times above its rated power. Problem is, rise time is so fast that it can bypass protection fuses and blow the drivers...dangerous amps for sure, but -as you can imagine- extremely dynamic and seriously powerful. And neutral, with the 6AS7G preamp, the NADs sound like tubes, and since the OTL is utterly dynamic and detailed, is like a perfect match. I feel that the sound of this kind of preamp is not at all stable thru its operation cycle, it reaches good sound after half an hour, but it have ups and downs, after two hours, maybe it reach its best, but this is my subjective opinion, of course...


----------



## gibosi

I would agree that tube amps often sound their best after being on an hour or longer. However, my original post was only about safety. In order to protect headphones and ears when using an OTL, it is best to wait 5 minutes or so before plugging in headphones. This allows the tube enough time to reach normal operating temperature. But as you note, it does seem to take at least 30 minutes or longer for everything to stabilize and "settle in".


----------



## MIKELAP

Another pair of rebranded Russian tubes .BEWARE!    http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-6AS7G-5998-421A-TUBES-ENGLAND-TEST-NOS/152195314520?_trksid=p2050601.c100085.m2372&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37338%26meid%3Df4b7bc68102f4855856b501a44a4425f%26pid%3D100085%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D262517335282%26clkid%3D7419955448080350896&_qi=RTM2247626


----------



## pctazhp

mikelap said:


> Another pair of rebranded Russian tubes .BEWARE!    http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-6AS7G-5998-421A-TUBES-ENGLAND-TEST-NOS/152195314520?_trksid=p2050601.c100085.m2372&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37338%26meid%3Df4b7bc68102f4855856b501a44a4425f%26pid%3D100085%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D262517335282%26clkid%3D7419955448080350896&_qi=RTM2247626


 
 I was wondering about those. Thanks for the warning )))


----------



## Ultrainferno

Doesn't mean they are bad tubes, just not $128 good


----------



## mordy

More like $17/pair:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-ECC230-6AS7G-SVETLANA-DOUBLE-TRIODE-NOS-TESTED-70s-LOT-OF-2-TUBES-/111600090554?hash=item19fbe23dba:g:fyIAAOSwk5FUu1-t


----------



## pctazhp

mordy said:


> More like $17/pair:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-ECC230-6AS7G-SVETLANA-DOUBLE-TRIODE-NOS-TESTED-70s-LOT-OF-2-TUBES-/111600090554?hash=item19fbe23dba:g:fyIAAOSwk5FUu1-t


 
  
 Well, what the heck!! I'll take a shot at them. I haven't ordered any new tubes for a long time and need that rush of anticipation


----------



## mordy

Hi pct,
  
 These tubes may be similar or the same as the OEM power tubes that the Elise comes with, so you may have them or something very similar already.
  
 6H13C, 6N13S and 6N5S are all supposedly very similar or the same (My Elise came with 6H13C).


----------



## abvolt

Are those Russian tubes any good?  I can't seen to remove my ts5998's soo sweet sounding..


----------



## Badas

abvolt said:


> Are those Russian tubes any good?  I can't seen to remove my ts5998's soo sweet sounding..


 

 I've never had much luck with them. Very noisy in my amp and not the most exciting sound. A little veiled. Could be okay if you want to tame other tubes in a amp.


----------



## abvolt

That's about what I would have expected any experienced audiophile to say thanks dude..enjoy


----------



## adeadcrab

sound great in a la figaro 339. Woo amps are a little more picky

 Edit: 7236's younger sibling


----------



## hodgjy

abvolt said:


> Are those Russian tubes any good?  I can't seen to remove my ts5998's soo sweet sounding..


 
  
 They are decent. They have slight veil to them, but they are pretty balanced. Unlike the post above this, I found them to be the quietest of all the tubes I've used from this family.


----------



## Ultrainferno

hodgjy said:


> They are decent. They have slight veil to them, but they are pretty balanced. Unlike the post above this, I found them to be the quietest of all the tubes I've used from this family.




I have perfectly fine sounding Svetlanas and other that hum like crazy. Could happen to all tubes though. 
The good Russians are better though than most people think of it.


----------



## eschell27

I have a favor to ask. I just bought a Woo WA2 second hand, the previous owner told me he had a set of rca 6as7g in addition to the stock tubes. The tubes arrived today ahead of the amp, open them up to see that they are different rca 6as7g tubes. 
 So im pretty sure i can answer this first question from my limited knowledge of tubes but i probably can't use them together in the WA2 right?
 Secondly can anyone identify which ones exactly they are so that i can track down 2 more to match the ones i have and have 2 like sets of rca 6as7g?
  
 Here are pics...let me know if you need to see another view of them
  
 Thanks in advance.


----------



## Ultrainferno

please take pics of the date codes, but those tubes look pretty identical to me, the labeling doesn't mean anything


----------



## Badas

Internal construction around the micra area is a little different. Also the way the internals are mounted against the glass. All this shouldn't effect the sound. These should be good to go.
  
 Personally myself I would hunt down two the same.


----------



## eschell27

Would this be the date code?
  
 I still have a lot to learn! Glad i have you guys to help!


----------



## whirlwind

The top one is 1961 and made in the 43rd week....not sure about the second one....I assume 1966 22nd week.


----------



## eschell27

Hey Whirlwind! 
 Thanks! I will see how they sound when the amp gets here tomorrow and take it from there.
 Will have to start digging through this and the WA2 tube threads... find some good stuff to try out down the road with my WA2 and T1 gen 1.


----------



## whirlwind

eschell27 said:


> Hey Whirlwind!
> Thanks! I will see how they sound when the amp gets here tomorrow and take it from there.
> Will have to start digging through this and the WA2 tube threads... find some good stuff to try out down the road with my WA2 and T1 gen 1.


 
 The WA2 & T1 should sound great...happy listening.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> The WA2 & T1 should sound great...happy listening.


 

 T1 or T1 mark 2 is a HP I think I would like in the future.
  
 Purchased NightHawks recently and I'm in lov with them. Sold my LCD-X as I was confident I wouldn't use again. Still have my LCD-3C's.
  
 T1 I have been thinking about tho.


----------



## whirlwind

badas said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > The WA2 & T1 should sound great...happy listening.
> ...


 
 Wow...sold your LCD -X...you must like those NightHawks!
  
 I am soon to be ordering the ZMF omni...should compliment the HD800 & RS1 very nice.


----------



## gibosi

whirlwind said:


> The top one is 1961 and made in the 43rd week....not sure about the second one....I assume 1966 22nd week.


 
  
 Typically, RCA used white paint in the 1950's and red paint in the 1960's. Also a single digit for the year was common in the 1950's, but into the 1960's, in order to reduce confusion, two digits were used. So I would suggest that for the one with white paint, 6 - 22 = 1956, week 22. And, for the one with red paint, I agree with Whirlwind,  61 - 43 = 1961, week 43.


----------



## Badas

whirlwind said:


> Wow...sold your LCD -X...you must like those NightHawks!
> 
> I am soon to be ordering the ZMF omni...should compliment the HD800 & RS1 very nice.


 

 NightHawks sounded like crap at first. Really awful.
  
 20 hours + they really started to come into their own. Now I adore how they sound. Especially the treble. No elevation, sibilant or harshness. Just sweet and detailed.
  
 They are dull and boomy from new. Boom goes away and treble sweetens. I wonder if many hear these when they are new and then get put of them. I would. I now thing they are very under rated.
  
 ZMF + HD800 + RS1 should have you set.


----------



## eschell27

I just got my T1.1's a few weeks ago but i am loving them...have quickly become my favorite. Between them, my hd650 with dac-19, c-2 amp (also use as preamp for other amp) and my soon to arrive WA2 i am very happy with the upgrade path ive chosen. Just last december i started out my headfi journey with a fiio x5 2nd gen t-peos h-300 for portable and desktop: Aune x1s with audio-technica m50x. Feels like i've come a long way! Very happy but i know myself... will continue to explore. Excited to start rolling tubes in the WA2 in an attempt to bankrupt myself


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > The top one is 1961 and made in the 43rd week....not sure about the second one....I assume 1966 22nd week.
> ...


 
 Thanks Ken....this clears up some tubes that I have that I was wondering about also.
  
 As always, great info


----------



## MIKELAP

whirlwind said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > whirlwind said:
> ...


 
 6-22 should be 1946-22 week according to this                                                                                 http://www.ebay.com/gds/The-Open-Date-code-System-for-American-made-Vacuum-Tubes-/10000000177866446/g.html


----------



## gibosi

In practice, all manufacturers did not implement this dating system at exactly the same time, like clockwork. I have seen many instances where single digits were used to indicate the year of manufacture through the late 1950's. For example, the 5998. Since the 5998 was not introduced until 1951, my 5998s with the date "8 - 22" cannot possibly have been manufactured in 1948.
  
 Furthermore, in the case of the two tubes above, we are lucky to have good silk-screened text and graphics. The style of the white graphics is typical 1950's RCA. In the 1940's, the text and graphics tended to be silver. Also, "RCA" in capital sans-serif letters is very typical of the 1950's. In the 1940's "RCA Victor", written in a serif font, and the "Nipper" logo are often seen. Of course, I could be wrong, but I feel quite certain that tube pictured above was not manufactured in 1946.
  
 In fact, I don't think I have ever seen RCA 6AS7 production from the 1940's. As the 6AS7 was first put into production in 1946, this would mean that the one above is among the very first manufactured. I doubt it... 
  
 IMHO, it is best to take blanket statements such as the above posted on eBay with a grain of salt. It seems that there are always exceptions.... always....


----------



## 3083joe

badas said:


> NightHawks sounded like crap at first. Really awful.
> 
> 20 hours + they really started to come into their own. Now I adore how they sound. Especially the treble. No elevation, sibilant or harshness. Just sweet and detailed.
> 
> ...



Sounds nice my friend.


----------



## rudra

I got a tube from ebay which has got the discolouration as shown above. Is the tube good to use or should I ask of a refund. The one's shown in the listing was different to what I recieved -


----------



## adeadcrab

Where it is discolouring it is starting to go white which could mean it is losing its vacuum. You should wait for other opinions but I would consider returning it.


----------



## DogMeat

LOVE my T1 X WA2 pairing!
  
 LOOONG thread, so I am going to skip the read of ALL of it and ask;
  
 Impressions of the *GE **Brown Base 6AS7GYB *?
 Looking to grab a matched pair, wondering if they are a good listen.
  
  
 My Lazy Butt says THANK YOU!


----------



## gibosi

rudra said:


> I got a tube from ebay which has got the discolouration as shown above. Is the tube good to use or should I ask of a refund. The one's shown in the listing was different to what I recieved -


 
  
 This tube looks perfectly fine to me. In the mid to late 1960's, the 5998 had one large circular getter on top and another on the side, toward the bottom. And thus you are seeing the corresponding chrome getter splash on top as well as on the side toward the bottom. So it looks perfectly normal. The next step is to plug it in.


----------



## gibosi

dogmeat said:


> LOVE my T1 X WA2 pairing!
> 
> LOOONG thread, so I am going to skip the read of ALL of it and ask;
> 
> ...


 
  
 I haven't tried these tubes.... However, it is quite likely that they are identical to the GE 6AS7A. Putting a brown base on a tube instead of a black base does not change the sound. The brown base was reputed to have better RF noise isolation, so it is likely that that tube was intended for use in severe operating environments. I doubt your stereo is operating in such an environment, so I wouldn't pay extra for the brown base.


----------



## rudra

Quote:


gibosi said:


> This tube looks perfectly fine to me. In the mid to late 1960's, the 5998 had one large circular getter on top and another on the side, toward the bottom. And thus you seeing the corresponding chrome getter splash on top as well as on the side toward the bottom. So it looks perfectly normal. The next step is to plug it in.


 

 Thanks!. I never seen one before so I am was not sure. I will plug it in and test it out considering that how everyone raves about the TS 5998.


----------



## DogMeat

gibosi said:


> I haven't tried these tubes.... However, it is quite likely that they are identical to the GE 6AS7A. Putting a brown base on a tube instead of a black base does not change the sound. The brown base was reputed to have better RF noise isolation, so it is likely that that tube was intended for use in severe operating environments. I doubt your stereo is operating in such an environment, so I wouldn't pay extra for the brown base.


 

 Nope. No SEVERE environment here.
 Nice advice.
 I am hoping the GE SS is a sweet one.


----------



## Sonic Defender

I'm assuming this is a normal tubism. For about the first 30-40 minutes when my 339 is on I hear short term, moderately loud something that sounds like a discharge of static (left channel only). It does seem to disappear after a time. It seems to be one of my input tubes as the last set that was in there did not seem to exhibit this behavior. Anything to worry about or just a tube being a tube?


----------



## pctazhp

sonic defender said:


> I'm assuming this is a normal tubism. For about the first 30-40 minutes when my 339 is on I hear short term, moderately loud something that sounds like a discharge of static (left channel only). It does seem to disappear after a time. It seems to be one of my input tubes as the last set that was in there did not seem to exhibit this behavior. Anything to worry about or just a tube being a tube?


 
 Static like that really isn't what I would call "normal" for a tube in good condition. If it is a NOS tube there is probably a pretty good chance the static will clear with use. If it is a tube with a lot of time on it, then I guess there is a good chance it will get worse. Time will tell.


----------



## gibosi

sonic defender said:


> I'm assuming this is a normal tubism. For about the first 30-40 minutes when my 339 is on I hear short term, moderately loud something that sounds like a discharge of static (left channel only). It does seem to disappear after a time. It seems to be one of my input tubes as the last set that was in there did not seem to exhibit this behavior. Anything to worry about or just a tube being a tube?


 
  
 I would add... It is this particular tube's way of "being a tube." Evidently, it needs 30 or 40 minutes to settle down. And again, it is hard to predict if it will get worse, or just stay the same for many more hundreds of hours...
  
 If you really like the sound you are hearing (after it quiets down), then I suggest you try to figure out exactly which tube it is. Once done, try to find find and purchase one or two more. And keep the noisy one as a backup.


----------



## Sonic Defender

pctazhp said:


> Static like that really isn't what I would call "normal" for a tube in good condition. If it is a NOS tube there is probably a pretty good chance the static will clear with use. If it is a tube with a lot of time on it, then I guess there is a good chance it will get worse. Time will tell.


 
 It seems to clear up after the tube has been operating for a time. It is supposed to be low use from NOS. The tubes came from the seller who I bought my 339 from and he claims they are NOS. I have a local HAM user with really good tube testers so I'll have him look at these for me.


----------



## Sonic Defender

Quote: 





gibosi said:


> I would add... It is this particular tube's way of "being a tube." Evidently, it needs 30 or 40 minutes to settle down. And again, it is hard to predict if it will get worse, or just stay the same for many more hundreds of hours...
> 
> If you really like the sound you are hearing (after it quiets down), then I suggest you try to figure out exactly which tube it is. Once done, try to find find and purchase one or two more. And keep the noisy one as a backup.


 Thanks mate, I know which tube it is for sure and it does settle down. I'll wait and see, but as long as it doesn't get worse the impact is very minimal to zero so I won't worry a great deal. The tubes themselves are supposed to be decent according to a few people in the 339 thread. Here is a picture, I would be curious what tube people here these are.


----------



## gibosi

This is a pair of 6J5G. The 6J5G is essentially one-half of a 6SN7. I think I can make out the British stores number, 10E/348, and thus, I would guess these were manufactured by a British manufacturer, perhaps MOV, but I am not sure....
  
 Edit: Oh, now I see the capital "Z" in the top left of the label which usually indicates MOV (Marconi-Osram Valve).


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 This tube is an ECC31. What does the 10E/453 mean? Is it a real Mullard tube?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> This tube is an ECC31. What does the 10E/453 mean? Is it a real Mullard tube?


 
  
 My assumption is that it is a British government store inventory number. I would guess that if someone wanted to order an ECC31, they would complete a requisition specifying item number 10E/453. In the case of the ECC31, only Mullard manufactured this tube. However, in those instances where more than one company manufactured a tube, I don't think the store number differentiates by brand.
  
 This table is especially useful when the only number on the tube is the stores number. You can then use it to find out the CV number and/or the tube-type number. 
  
 https://frank.pocnet.net/other/ServiceTypes/OldStores.html


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> My assumption is that it is a British government store inventory number. I would guess that if someone wanted to order an ECC31, they would complete a requisition specifying item number 10E/453.




Yes, I guess something like that. We can add that this someone would have been in RAF because 10Es were Air Ministry stores reference numbers. A bloke in Army or Royal Navy would have used a different stores reference. And that's basically why the Common Valve (CV) numbers were invented!


----------



## mordy

Thanks Gibosi and Oskari.
  
 I looked up the 10E/453 number in the list and it is indeed an ECC31 number.
  
 The red print is very fuzzy and worn, and I cannot really make out a date code above the Mullard name. I think that I am seeing ?ROT5CT-C3 but not very sure. Any thoughts what this means?
  
 Any thoughts re date period it was manufactured?


----------



## gibosi

Very generally, top smooth mica spacers with two mica side braces indicate 1940's production and top mica spacers with small spikes indicate 1950's production. However, I do not know the precise date that this change occurred. I happen to have an ECC31 with spikes that was manufactured in January, 1954, so yours had to have been manufactured before that time. But maybe we can be a little more precise.
  
 The ECC31 was introduced in 1942 and the Common Valve (CV) dating system was established in 1945. I have seen ECC31 labeled as CV1285 carrying a date as early as August, 1945. Thus I think it is not unreasonable to speculate that any ECC31 labeled with 10E/453 could very well have been manufactured sometime between 1942 and 1945. But of course, I am just trying to make a half-educated guess here. lol 
  
 To make matters more obscure, I have yet to find a key to the old Mullard date codes that were in use prior to the adoption of the Philips system in 1955. For example, I have an ECC31 with the code "1029.1 / 1MV". It appears that 1029 indicates ECC31, but I have no idea what significance the other characters might have had.
  
 Here is a similar example. Mullard never made a 6N7G but the old stores number tells the real truth. Apparently, the ECC31 could be used as a substitute for a 6N7G (likely in American-made equipment during WWII). 
  

  
 And an example of the Army stores number for the ECC31: ZA/17811. (NR73 = Navy Receiving valve #73 and D = Mitcham factory)
  

  
 So these old stores numbers give us one more tool we can use in identifying British tubes from the early 1940's.
  
 Edit: corrected stores and factory as per below...


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 Thanks for a fascinating and very informative post.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> The red print is very fuzzy and worn, and I cannot really make out a date code above the Mullard name. I think that I am seeing ?ROT5CT-C3 but not very sure. Any thoughts what this means?




I think that's "protected by patents".




> Any thoughts re date period it was manufactured?




I agree with gibosi that it must be pretty early.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> And an example of the Royal Navy stores number for the ECC31: ZA/17811. (NR73 = Navy Receiving tube #73 and D = Blackburn factory)




It's even more complicated: The NR73 was an Admiralty type originally but ZAs are Army stores numbers! The Admiralty stores number was W1280.

P.S. I'm sure you meant to write D = Mitcham.


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> It's even more complicated: The NR73 was an Admiralty type originally but ZAs are Army stores numbers! The Admiralty stores number was W1280.
> 
> P.S. I'm sure you meant to write D = Mitcham.


 
  
 Thanks for the correction. 
  
 And yes, D = Mitcham
  
 http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


----------



## jamato8

sonic defender said:


> Thanks mate, I know which tube it is for sure and it does settle down. I'll wait and see, but as long as it doesn't get worse the impact is very minimal to zero so I won't worry a great deal. The tubes themselves are supposed to be decent according to a few people in the 339 thread. Here is a picture, I would be curious what tube people here these are.


 

 I have a number of these in NOS I bought from a big tube seller in Europe years ago. For some reason he totally disappeared but he had huge stocks of about everything from a case of 500 metal base GZ34 Mullards, etc. Anyway the tube is nice and has a warm character with a decent soundstage and solid bass though not the deepest. A good tube. Most of mine have a bit of getter appearance (looks like getter) right over the heater that can happen with some tubes when you burn them in and I have even had them do this when testing. Some come from the factory this way and people think they are used tubes but they aren't. 
  
 Often gassy tubes will take 30 minute to an hour to absorb the gas, if they are going to. I have some 1929 27 mesh plates that do this and then they are fine. Some will put older tubes in an oven at 300 for an hour or so and let them cool back down. This activates the getter and absorbs any gas that has gotten into the tube.


----------



## Sonic Defender

jamato8 said:


> I have a number of these in NOS I bought from a big tube seller in Europe years ago. For some reason he totally disappeared but he had huge stocks of about everything from a case of 500 metal base GZ34 Mullards, etc. Anyway the tube is nice and has a warm character with a decent soundstage and solid bass though not the deepest. A good tube. Most of mine have a bit of getter appearance (looks like getter) right over the heater that can happen with some tubes when you burn them in and I have even had them do this when testing. Some come from the factory this way and people think they are used tubes but they aren't.
> 
> Often gassy tubes will take 30 minute to an hour to absorb the gas, if they are going to. I have some 1929 27 mesh plates that do this and then they are fine. Some will put older tubes in an oven at 300 for an hour or so and let them cool back down. This activates the getter and absorbs any gas that has gotten into the tube.


 
 If you put them in the oven at that temp won't the plastic simply melt? Am I misunderstanding what you meant, or are the tubes heat resistant to such temperatures?


----------



## thecrow

A couple of general tubes but around my wa2. 

1) is using gec 6as7g tubes, one with rounded base and with straight base ok?

2) in using a pair ot tubes (both the same) if it sounds ok would it matter if the tubes's measurements were not matched (or unknown) 

3) what would putting 6922 (6dj8) tubes where the rectifiers go do to the amp or tubes. I accidentally did it a while ago and the sound was fine in the minute or two they were in there before i realised what i had done. 

Thanks


----------



## thecrow

badas said:


> NightHawks sounded like crap at first. Really awful.
> 
> 20 hours + they really started to come into their own. Now I adore how they sound. Especially the treble. No elevation, sibilant or harshness. Just sweet and detailed.
> 
> ...




That might explain why they sounded so sh.....t when i demoed them the other week and regardless of "YMMV" i could not see how these were enjoyed by persons here


----------



## Badas

thecrow said:


> That might explain why they sounded so sh.....t when i demoed them the other week and regardless of "YMMV" i could not see how these were enjoyed by persons here




Before purchasing I had read that they needed 100+ hours burn it time. From new they sounded broken. Just rubbish. I ended up rigging a iPod to them and played musc into them continuous for 4 days. After that I couldn't believe how they sounded. Sold my LCD-X the next week and I really can't see myself using the LCD-3 again. I far prefer the Hawks.


----------



## leftside

How can a headphone sound crap from new and then sound good after 100 hours? They would never sell. It would be suicide for the manufacturer.


----------



## Badas

leftside said:


> How can a headphone sound crap from new and then sound good after 100 hours? They would never sell. It would be suicide for the manufacturer.


 

 I know. I don't know why they did that. Probably why they have been very polarizing. They are so good to my ear I went back and bought a second pair as a spare. I then decided to do a side by side test. New and over 100 hours. They are completely different.


----------



## adeadcrab

^ ..have noticed this with AKG K7XX recently.


----------



## Badas

adeadcrab said:


> ^ ..have noticed this with AKG K7XX recently.




Some new HP's are using drivers with rubber mounts. Like a speaker. NightHawks do. The theory is the rubber takes a while to loosen up. Kinda explains a lot.


----------



## ru4music

thecrow said:


> A couple of general tubes but around my wa2.
> 
> 1) is using gec 6as7g tubes, one with rounded base and with straight base ok?
> 
> ...


 
 In case you didn't get your questions answered:

Yes.
No, it will not matter in a single tube/ channel arrangement, in a parallel (two tubes/ channel) arrangement one tube may work harder than the other if not matched.
I looked at this (pin-outs between the 6922 and EZ80) and I don't see any likely harm to the amp.  It appears that 6922 (6DJ8) tubes would perform as half wave rectifiers in the power supply instead of the intended full wave rectification with the EZ80.  Not something I would ever think (or want) to try though; so your saying the amp actually worked fine?  How was the sound?
  
 Better send those GECs to me for safe keeping, just in case!


----------



## thecrow

ru4music said:


> In case you didn't get your questions answered:
> 
> Yes.
> No, it will not matter in a single tube/ channel arrangement, in a parallel (two tubes/ channel) arrangement one tube may work harder than the other if not matched.
> ...


Thanks for that. Luckily i have enough room in my house to keep my gec's but thanks for the offer

When i put the 6922 tubes in the rectifier spots it was fine. But they weren't in there for too long. And it sounded fine. It was that somehow i remembered what i did as opposed to the drawing my attentuon to it


----------



## ru4music

thecrow said:


>


 
Thanks for that. Luckily i have enough room in my house to keep my gec's but thanks for the offer
When i put the 6922 tubes in the rectifier spots it was fine. But they weren't in there for too long. And it sounded fine. It was that somehow i remembered what i did as opposed to the drawing my attentuon to it
 
  

​​Your so welcome, the offer is indefinite!
In effect, your predetermined calculated experiment ( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




​) very likely didn't damage your 6922s; it just (in theory) cut the max. power delivery of the wa2's power supply in half.  But, in all seriousness, that swag is what helps define rectifier characteristics sometimes for the better.
  
 Happy listening, Cheers!
  
 BTW - a triode/ pentode (e.g. 6922) is just a rectifier (e.g. EZ80) with more electrodes (more grids/ screens etc.) applied in slightly different configurations.


----------



## thecrow

ru4music thanks for your indefinite offer. 

I've offered something quite similar. People sometimes "complain" about burn in time so for them i'm happy to burn in their amps FOR FREE, eg wa5, and send it back to them when i think it's ready. Strangely enough i haven't had anyone take up this generous offer. The same offer goes for top end headphones too

That's just tbe generous type of guy that i am, just like yourself


----------



## ru4music

thecrow said:


> @ru4music thanks for your indefinite offer.
> 
> I've offered something quite similar. People sometimes "complain" about burn in time so for them i'm happy to burn in their amps FOR FREE, eg wa5, and send it back to them when i think it's ready. Strangely enough i haven't had anyone take up this generous offer. The same offer goes for top end headphones too
> 
> That's just tbe generous type of guy that i am, just like yourself


----------



## thecrow

ru4music said:


>


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello does anybody here have a pair of GEC 6AS7G (brown base) tubes I can buy off you? I understand these are highly coveted and rare tubes, but thought it's worth a try. I have extra money so please PM me if so. Otherwise please let me know where I can buy a good pair.
  
 Also would anybody please tell me if they have compared both the GEC 6AS7G to the GEC 6080's? (brown base ST tubes vs. the straight form tubes?) I'm very interested to know what the sonic differences are between the two. Perhaps @gibosi would know...
  
 Additionally I would be interested to know which are considered the best 5998 tubes? I saw a conversation about these earlier on this thread, but didn't notice which brand was the regarded as best.
  
 This is for my Elise tube amp which accepts both 6AS7, 5998 and 6080 as power tubes, and 6SN7 class as drivers


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh yes also I'm interested to find a pair of tubes in the 6SN7 or small 6DJ8 class that are dark meaning with less treble and more bass, if anyone can recommend which ones? Thanks so much!


----------



## attmci

decentlevi said:


> Hello does anybody here have a pair of GEC 6AS7G (brown base) tubes I can buy off you? I understand these are highly coveted and rare tubes, but thought it's worth a try. I have extra money so please PM me if so. Otherwise please let me know where I can buy a good pair.
> 
> Also would anybody please tell me if they have compared both the GEC 6AS7G to the GEC 6080's? (brown base ST tubes vs. the straight form tubes?) I'm very interested to know what the sonic differences are between the two. Perhaps @gibosi would know...
> 
> ...


 

 You may want to go to the following page and post a want to buy post:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/f/6553/cables-speakers-tweaks-accessories-for-sale-trade
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Mechans1

decentlevi said:


> Oh yes also I'm interested to find a pair of tubes in the 6SN7 or small 6DJ8 class that are dark meaning with less treble and more bass, if anyone can recommend which ones? Thanks so much!


 

 I am answering in public for the edification of those who may be interested I am not selling.  When you say dark in a 6DJ8 my answer went to the English tubes .  This time however you don't have to search all over the "Tubi-verse"  in order to find a good pair of NOS Mullards etc. ( I don't think actual NOS tubes are sold anymore with exceptions of course.)  The small Gold Lion current production from New Sensor tubes have that darker sound.  They make a 6922 with gold pins and a steel pin version at least they did  for a while.
  Your options for a dark sounding 6SN7s are limited, part to what one  calls dark sounding.   If you want bass you know what everybody will tell you- Ken Rad(KR).  What is even better is they come in a black glass version, which seems to be a pre requisite, for many of you guys. You can track down some Philips tubes, usually in the form of Pope's branded 6SN7s.  They will be expensive and a really good NOS pair not so  easy to find.  OTOH it may be easy if you can cajole Upscale audio to sell you a pair.  
 You can save a fortune if you like the sound of Sylvania 6SN7 GTBs which many consider mellow.  The problem is that they are readily accessible and have ordinary aesthetics.  They do come in a couple of flavors.  I mentioned some time ago that the Green letter on black base GTBs sounded best in my memory, and then couldn't find any in my collection.  I withdrew the green letter statement, but have subsequently unearthed a few pairs, so I am reasserting it.
 How about ECC 32s for $600/Pair (NOS NIB), no I am not selling just telling what they can cost.
 Finally if it's bass you want get HPs that deliver oodles of bass, get cables tuned to bass, use the KRs.  Tune your entire system to deliver bass.  I am going to have to make an HP subwoofer LOL.  Best of Luck


----------



## eschell27

I posted about these tubes awhile ago a few people seemed to think they looked physically similar and that they should sound close enough to use together...put them away for awhile as i got a few different sets of power tubes for my WA2...now that i took them back out thinking about giving them a try again i noticed that the one has what appears to be a bottom getter that the other one doesnt....on top of that it is a clear top black plate. Just curious if anyone really familiar with RCA 6as7g's might be able to shed a little more light as to what might be the difference in these and if they could have different sonic traits. From the small amount of time i spent listening to them a few months ago i thought they sounded fine together but the amp was brand spankin' new to me then.
  

  

  

  
  
 **EDIT**
  
 Just found this from a HF Thread 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/324469/review-four-6as7g-based-home-tube-headphone-amps-reviewed-and-compared#post_4194061
  
 "RCA also made “Grey Plate” and “Black Plate” versions – all other makers 6AS7G’s have black plates. Supposedly the Black plates sound better, but I believe this is either untrue or extremely subtle at best. Some also have an additional metal “skirting” shielding the wiring as it travels from the base to the grid, but I have not been able to attribute any real sonic differences there either."


----------



## gibosi

The tube with orange paint was manufactured in 1961 and the tube with white paint was manufactured in 1956, some 5 years apart. Due to such things as the introduction of new materials and techniques, new research and feed-back from the field, changes were made in the design and construction of the RCA 6AS7G during that 5 year period. Whether these changes resulted in a difference in sound, there is no way to know simply through a visual inspection. This can only be determined by someone such as yourself actually comparing them.


----------



## thecrow

Wondering

Are gec6as7g the same as a1834 and the same as cv2523?

Is there much veriation between years ot can a matching pair be easily plucked from two various years?


Is the z crucial on tbe bottom right of the box? What does the z, the 4 or x/z mean?

Thanks in advance for any help


----------



## gibosi

thecrow said:


> Wondering
> 
> Are gec6as7g the same as a1834 and the same as cv2523?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, these are all the same tube:
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_a1834.html
  
 In general, it is best to have tubes that were manufactured at about the same time. That said, I have three pairs, 1949, 1956 and 1961, and my old ears can't reliably tell the difference between them.
  
 In the case of British tubes, the letter "Z" is a "manufacturer's factory identification code" which tells us which company manufactured the tube and in which factory:
  
 Z = MO Valve Company, Hammersmith
  
 "X" = When approval has been given for the use of a valve in MDAP equipment by the Director of Electronics Research and Development (Air) but that valve has not received qualification approval the letter X is used.
  
 As to the number "4", I have yet to discover what it means, but this number is commonly found on GEC/MO Valve tubes.
  
 On the other hand, not all GEC 6AS7G have these CV codes. And in some cases, all the silk-screened text may be gone. But even so, the construction of a GEC 6AS7G is different than any other 6AS7G, so they are easy to recognize.
  
 http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


----------



## thecrow

gibosi said:


> Yes, these are all the same tube:
> 
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_a1834.html
> 
> ...


And i believe the first of two letters gives the year bus is that just for the 50's and 60's?

When do you think production may have stopped?

Ps i'll read your second link - it looks great


----------



## gibosi

thecrow said:


> And i believe the first of two letters gives the year bus is that just for the 50's and 60's?
> 
> When do you think production may have stopped?
> 
> Ps i'll read your second link - it looks great


 
  
 As per the second link, a two-letter date code was used until the mid-to-late 1960s (ZM = 1968, December), and after that, a 4-digit numerical code, similar to that used in the US, was used.
  
 So, for example, my three pair:
  
 1949 = EM
 1956 = MC
 1961 = SB
  
 According to Wikipedia, GEC/M-OV ceased the manufacture of vacuum tubes at the Hammersmith location in 1988. However, I have no idea if they continued to produce the 6AS7 into the 1980s. Perhaps others who have this tube would be willing to take at look at the date codes and let us know if theirs were manufactured in the 1970s or even later.


----------



## thecrow

gibosi said:


> As per the second link, a two-letter date code was used until the mid-to-late 1960s (ZM = 1968, December), and after that, a 4-digit numerical code, similar to that used in the US, was used.
> 
> So, for example, my three pair:
> 
> ...


I have one tube with codes on it of 6935 so i guess thats 1969

Im being offered a tube with no codes on it so im guessing they've been rubbed off. 

I also have bought two in the past with nothing on it. They sound legit. Im guessing they started with codes on them?????


----------



## gibosi

thecrow said:


> I have one tube with codes on it of 6935 so i guess thats 1969
> 
> Im being offered a tube with no codes on it so im guessing they've been rubbed off.
> 
> I also have bought two in the past with nothing on it. They sound legit. Im guessing they started with codes on them?????


 
  
 Yep, 69 = 1969 and 35 = week 35.
  
 I think there are two reasons that some GEC 6AS7G have no date codes. In many cases, as you surmise, the codes have rubbed off over time. And in some cases, the tubes were placed into the civilian market rather than sold to the British military. Typically the text and graphics painted on consumer tubes do not include date codes. And I should add, a GEC CV2523 is identical to a GEC 6AS7G. The only difference is the paint on the bottle. The tubes themselves are all the same. That said, I haven't seen all that many civilian GEC 6AS7G, but they are out there.


----------



## MIKELAP

A couple weeks ago i found this single GEC 6080WA /CV8614 .I am looking out for another one to make a pair is it important to get the same 6080WA/CV8614 markings  or another 6080WA lets say for example GEC6080WA/CV2984  would be ok


----------



## gibosi

mikelap said:


> A couple weeks ago i found this single GEC 6080WA /CV8614 .I am looking out for another one to make a pair is it important to get the same 6080WA/CV8614 markings  or another 6080WA lets say for example GEC6080WA/CV2984  would be ok


 
  
 It appears that CV2984, CV5008 and CV8614 all refer to the 6080. I do not know why there are three separate CV numbers for this tube. And I have a pair labeled as a 6080WA (date code SL = 1961). And as near as I can tell, no matter how they are labeled, they are all the same tube.
  
 I would suggest that you assume these are in fact all the same tube and instead concentrate on the year of manufacture. The tube pictured above, with a date code of YF, was manufactured in June, 1967. And therefore, if you can find another one manufactured at about the same time, in my opinion, that would be a suitable mate.


----------



## MIKELAP

Quote: 





gibosi said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > A couple weeks ago i found this single GEC 6080WA /CV8614 .I am looking out for another one to make a pair is it important to get the same 6080WA/CV8614 markings  or another 6080WA lets say for example GEC6080WA/CV2984  would be ok
> ...


 
 Found this one with code YD =1967 -APRIL but at over $ 225.00 CAD ill forget about it


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 The 6080 tube comes in several revisions such as 6080, 6080WA, WB, WC. Perhaps the different CV numbers correspond to different revisions of this tube.
  
 I do not know what the revisions are, or if they make any practical difference, but there must be some reason for the differences, probably something minor in the specifications.
  
 I do know that the graphite plate tubes usually have a WB designation.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Hi Gibosi,
> 
> The 6080 tube comes in several revisions such as 6080, 6080WA, WB, WC. Perhaps the different CV numbers correspond to different revisions of this tube.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The idea that these different CV numbers might correspond to the WA, WB and WC did occur to me, with CV2984 being the earliest and CV8614 being the latest. However, I have a pair labeled 6080WA, dated 1961; Mikelap posted a picture of one labeled CV8614, dated 1967; and I have another pair labeled CV2984, dated 1972. So while it is tempting to think these different CV numbers correspond to WA, WB and WC, the labeling and dates on these GEC tubes just doesn't seem support it.
  
 So again, my assumption is that all these GEC variants are the same. And even it they are somehow different, I am inclined to believe that tubes manufactured at about the same time are identical regardless of the label.
  
 And yes, Bendix 6080WB have graphite plates, but all the other manufacturers used metal plates....


----------



## u2u2

Here are a few shots from the several matched pairs of GEC 6080 I have. Three different CV numbers (8614, 5008, 2984) yet all look to be physically identical. I have a few pair of driver tubes with similar construction but different dates, likewise with some of my other brands of power tube sets. No issues with their performance. I think the OP will do well to find another GEC 6080 with similar construction and not worry about the CV numbers. Depending on source the price of these tubes in true NOS form have over doubled this year. I suggest email James at Langrex and see if he can fill the need.


----------



## MIKELAP

u2u2 said:


> Here are a few shots from the several matched pairs of GEC 6080 I have. Three different CV numbers (8614, 5008, 2984) yet all look to be physically identical. I have a few pair of driver tubes with similar construction but different dates, likewise with some of my other brands of power tube sets. No issues with their performance. I think the OP will do well to find another GEC 6080 with similar construction and not worry about the CV numbers. Depending on source the price of these tubes in true NOS form have over doubled this year. I suggest email James at Langrex and see if he can fill the need.


 
 They have them but they are way to expensive


----------



## 432789

*RSD 6AS7G* 
 anyone know about this? (how they compare)


----------



## gibosi

thebrunx said:


> *RSD 6AS7G*
> anyone know about this? (how they compare)


 
  
 The picture is a little blurry, but I will hazard a guess that the tube is a Russian 6H13C?


----------



## mordy

Hi thebrunx,
  
 RSD was a German rebrander that in later years put their name on Russian and Eastern Europe tubes.  The tip-off on the Russian 6AS7 type tubes are the dual inverted saucer getters, Can't see clearly in the picture, but I am sure that Gibosi is right.
  
 Very recently a whole bunch of Russian Svetlana 6AS7/6H13C/6N5S  have appeared under fake names such as Amperex  - Made in Holland, and United National -  Made in England.


----------



## Oskari

Yes, that RSD is Russian. The bottle shape and getter flash are typical.


----------



## mordy

Bought a couple of RCA 6AS7 tubes cheap and included in this lot was a Tung Sol 6AS7G from March 1965. It does not look the same as my Chatham 6AS7 which have clear tops and copper rods. The writing on the base does not have the regular TS factory numbers and just says JAN 6AS7G Tung Sol Made in USA. This TS tube has a top getter flash as well as a side getter flash on the bottom.
  









  
 Do you think it is a Tung Sol tube or a RCA rebranded tube? (The construction does not look the same as the RCA 6AS7G).
  
 I sounds nice with a nice weighty bass.


----------



## gibosi

My guess is that it is a Tung-Sol 6AS7. While I don't have any TS 6AS7 from the middle 1960's to compare, I do have a couple pairs from the middle 1950's. And it is reasonable to assume that over that ten year period, changes were continuously being made in the design and construction of this tube.
  
 For comparison purposes, most Chatham/Tung-Sol 5998 from the middle 1950's had top getters. And around the middle 1960's, we begin to see 5998s with both top and side getters. So it may well be that Tung-Sol came to believe that a top getter plus a side getter gave better results, and this is reflected in mid-to-late 1960's 5998 and 6AS7.
  
 But as usual, this is pure speculation in my part. lol


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 Thanks for your answer - your assumptions sound very reasonable. I assume that making a tube with two getter locations would make the manufacturing more complicated/expensive,so there must be a reason for it.
  
 Looked through a bunch of pictures on Google of TS 6AS7 tubes, but I could not find a single one with red print on the base - that's why I asked if it is a RCA, but it does not look like the RCA tubes.


----------



## attmci

mikelap said:


> Found this one with code YD =1967 -APRIL but at over $ 225.00 CAD ill forget about it


 
 Check this:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-tubes-Raytheon-RCA-Sylvania-qty-5-/252629360025?hash=item3ad1e21d99:g:Fm4AAOSwNRlYI5If


----------



## mordy

Hi attmci,
  
 Good find - the third tube in the first picture (without name brand) could possibly be a GEC 6080. If the Raytheons were Bendix rebranded tubes (they are not) I would bite.....
  
 Found a picture:


----------



## JamieMcC

Third tube is a GEC 6080 the letter Z is the factory code and indicates it was made at their Hammersmith factory


----------



## attmci

Nobody wants a cheap GEC 6080.


----------



## MIKELAP

attmci said:


> Nobody wants a cheap GEC 6080.


 
 I do


----------



## mordy

Listing re-appeared.


----------



## attmci

mikelap said:


> I do


----------



## jekjek

Hi Guys,

I just got a few pieces of NEC 6080WA.
Anyone knows the tube origin from the pictures below?


----------



## gibosi

While I am not at all sure, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that NEC manufactured these....


----------



## jekjek

gibosi said:


> While I am not at all sure, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that NEC manufactured these....



I always thought Japan never produce any tubes


----------



## gibosi

Hitachi, Toshiba, Matsushta, NEC and others were prolific manufacturers of vacuum tubes. I have quite a few.
  
 Edit:
  
 A recent example:
  
 This 6BX7GT was actually manufactured by Toshiba, but it carries a Tungsram label and has an Orgal Radio sticker. Orgal Radio was based in Milan, Italy. lol


----------



## mordy

Hi jekjek,
  
 Japan produced some very high quality tubes, one reason being that Matsushta (today Panasonic) bought tooling from Philips and had a cooperative agreement with Philips.
  
 The person to ask about the NEC tubes is Oskari.
  
  
 BTW, I have to misspell Matsu crap a in order not to be censured by Head-Fi lol)


----------



## vapman

mordy said:


> Hi jekjek,
> 
> Japan produced some very high quality tubes, one reason being that Matsushta (today Panasonic) bought tooling from Philips and had a cooperative agreement with Philips.
> 
> ...


 
 This always bugged me. I've seen that company name get censored here for probably 10 years...


----------



## mordy

Hi vapman,
  
  
 On the other hand I personally am grateful for not having to read four lettered words and foul language......


----------



## vapman

mordy said:


> Hi vapman,
> 
> 
> On the other hand I personally am grateful for not having to read four lettered words and foul language......


 
 Yes, this is most certainly the upside of it. I merely thought it was humorous that nobody's thought to whitelist that one company name, though....


----------



## attmci

@mordy 
 Care to compare your 6bl7 to those newly purchased premium 6as7g?


----------



## jekjek

mordy said:


> Hi jekjek,
> 
> Japan produced some very high quality tubes, one reason being that Matsushta (today Panasonic) bought tooling from Philips and had a cooperative agreement with Philips.
> 
> ...




Thanks Mordy.

I have no idea how the NEC 6080 sounds. Still waiting for my Glenn OTL


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> While I am not at all sure, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that NEC manufactured these....




Seems that they did indeed: http://www.geocities.jp/radiomann/HomePageVT/Audio_US_Triode.html#6080


----------



## attmci

So a RCA clone?


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> So a RCA clone?


 
  
 Not really. Given that the RCA 6080 was ubiquitous and in some sense the world standard, the writer is simply comparing the construction of the NEC 6080 to the RCA. That said, construction-wise, they look very similar, and I wouldn't be surprised if RCA shared it's technology with NEC.
  
 Also of interest in this article, Toshiba (東芝) and Hitachi (日立)  also manufactured this tube, as well as a company called TEN (神戸工業). However, it seems that the 6080 was manufactured primarily for domestic consumption, not the export market. And this helps to explain why these Japanese 6080s are not commonly found.


----------



## mordy

Hi gibosi,
  
 I see that your Japanese studies paid off......


----------



## jekjek

attmci said:


> So a RCA clone?


 
 Lets do a Comparison with RCA 6080
 On the right is the NEC 6080 and the rest is RCA6080, different production year
 All look quite similar in terms of construction, just a little bit different in supporting rod


----------



## Krit

These are 6as7g unmark base with copper pin. Are these possibly Chantham/Tungsol type? If not who is the maker of the tube? Many thanks for the clarification


----------



## DecentLevi

krit said:


> These are 6as7g unmark base with copper pin. Are these possibly Chantham/Tungsol type? If not who is the maker of the tube? Many thanks for the clarification


 
 Hate to say it, but those look absolutely identical to the Svetlana 6H13C, (6AS7G class) which are a dime a dozen with numerous sub-brand labels, sounding OK - not bad but better can be had


----------



## Dogmatrix

krit said:


> These are 6as7g unmark base with copper pin. Are these possibly Chantham/Tungsol type? If not who is the maker of the tube? Many thanks for the clarification


 
 Sorry to contradict the previous post but I would say they are almost certainly Chatham /Tungsol .
 Getter is wrong for Russian and construction wrong for RCA


----------



## Skylab

Those are Chatham/TungSol for sure. There was never a Russian 6H13C with anything other than the saucer/cup style getter. A bottom D getter like that means USA 6AS7G, and I agree the rest of the construction is almost surely TungSol.


----------



## Mechans1

AH. the upside down flying saucer getter, a little Russian certainty.


----------



## Krit

Thanks for all the input. Just plug one of these tube in my Bottlehead Crack. One thing for sure, the tube sounds so much better than the included RCA 6080 Tube.


----------



## Krit

decentlevi said:


> Hate to say it, but those look absolutely identical to the Svetlana 6H13C, (6AS7G class) which are a dime a dozen with numerous sub-brand labels, sounding OK - not bad but better can be had


 
  
 I not sure, but I have never come across the Svetlana 6H13C with copper rods.


----------



## attmci

attmci said:


> @mordy
> Care to compare your 6bl7 to those newly purchased premium 6as7g?


 

 OK. I will answer the question first.
  
 Yes, the GEC 6as7g handily beat multiple 6bl7. But 6bl7s represent unbeatable values according to their current price.


----------



## mordy

Hi attmci,
  
 Been away for two weeks but had in mind to answer your question. Now you answered it yourself lol, and I do agree with you on both points. Sounds like you got hold of a pair of the GEC 6AS7 tubes.....
  
 The 6BL7 three/channel is a great combination with very punchy bass. The GEC tubes have an excellent FR across, and what somebody described as a "mythical energy" which result in a very sweet and engaging sound.
  
 IMHO the GEC A1834/6AS7 lives up to all it is hyped up about.


----------



## AlexDDD

Does anybody know a good place to buy tubes from this family(not necessary NOS and preferably inside Europe)?


----------



## Cyberia Knight

alexddd said:


> Does anybody know a good place to buy tubes from this family(not necessary NOS and preferably inside Europe)?


 
 Some UK companies I have used are
  
 http://www.tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/
 http://www.langrex.co.uk/
 http://www.watfordvalves.com
  
 Langrex is on eBay and has a good selection of 6080 series tubes.
  
 I have also used http://www.halfin.com/ in Belguim check their http://electols.com/shopping/en/ site.
  
 Hope this is of help.


----------



## Johnnysound

Well, at last could get a pair of the mighty Tung-Sols 5998, domino plates. Not advertised as NOS, but tested above average for NOS 5998 tubes. Probably lightly used and surely stored for ages. A little crackling on the first warm/cold cycle but that was expected. My current favorite is the Tung-Sol 6520, a "premium" version of the family, for me sounding very similar to the excellent Chatham 6AS7G with copper rods, but perhaps a little bit more transparent and dynamic. Just a subtle difference. Some people say the 6520 is the same as the 5998 with flat plates, but this is simply not true. The 6520 has the standard amplification factor of 2, while the 5998 has a factor of 5, along with 3x the transconductance specs. Clearly the "super tube". However, my 6520s were truly NOS, and after many hours of playing, they sound better and better. This type of tubes are made to last, and do need a very long "burn in" period to sound its best. First impressions of the 5998 ? superior bass and detail, a truly "high def" presentation of music, in a relaxed and big way. However, the 6520s were clearly better in my extreme test with an HD violin concerto, showing nuance, vibrancy and air, while the 5998s sounded quite raw in comparison. Very typical. Now I am convinced they are NOS tubes, barely used, and super tube or not, they do need to play some hours to sound its best...


----------



## 100VoltTube

Hi all,
 I'm entering the tube world with a DIY OTL amp quite like the Crack, and I ordered a RCA 6AS7ga and a Phillips JAN 6080 for output tubes. I've read all about the RCA, but haven't seen anything about the Phillips. In pictures, it looks the same as a GE JAN 6080. Can anyone confirm that they are the same?


----------



## Oskari

100VT, 6AS7GA is usually a GE type, a tubular 6AS7G, but who knows, RCA may have made some as well.

Philips bought the Sylvania tube business (among others) and called it Philips ECG. Philips ECG tubes, such as yours, are most likely US-made 'late Sylvanias'.


----------



## 100VoltTube

Cool
 I read elsewhere that RCA made 6AS7ga's, so I assumed that's what I had ended up with, but maybe not. I had no idea Sylvania's tube division was purchased by Phillips. I'm looking forward to that tube a bit more now.


----------



## 100VoltTube

Just got the tubes in the mail and decided to learn a bit about them. The RCA one only has the RCA logo with a number, 7148, below it, like these tubes:

 Does this mean they're from 1971, or is it just a serial number with no meaning?


----------



## adeadcrab

It *might *be 1971, Week 48 i.e. late November.


----------



## teamrushpntball

More importantly how do they sound?  Did you get the pair off ebay?  Considering grabbing one for my crack.


100volttube said:


> Just got the tubes in the mail and decided to learn a bit about them. The RCA one only has the RCA logo with a number, 7148, below it, like these tubes:
> 
> Does this mean they're from 1971, or is it just a serial number with no meaning?


 
  
 On a similar note, my 5998 lost audio in the left channel unfortunately.  I'm down to a noisy Chatham 6as7g and my stock 6080 (No markings to determine maker).  Any suggestions on a new tube at $50 ish or less?


----------



## 100VoltTube

Unfortunately, I haven't made my amp yet, so I have no idea how they sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I was just passing the time between the arrival of different parts by learning a bit about my tubes. I'm hoping to be done by the end of the weekend, but that might be an unreasonable goal.
  
 Edit: I got it from PartsConnexion for $9.95. It was in the NOS deals section. The Phillips was only $4.95, but it appears to be out of stock now.


----------



## mordy

Hi teamrush,
  
 Can you describe any change in the 5998 tube? If it looks the same, sometimes there is poor contact by the pins that causes a tube to give out.
 The best way to clean the tube pins is to take a little pen knife or similar (does not have to be be sharp) and gently scrape the pins off for oxidation and dirt.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## teamrushpntball

It did come back to life, I used toothpaste and a brush to clean the pins followed by pure Isopropyl to displace any remaining water.  That and 10+ minutes to warm up and it's back to life.


----------



## gibosi

teamrushpntball said:


> It did come back to life, I used toothpaste and a brush to clean the pins followed by pure Isopropyl to displace any remaining water.  That and 10+ minutes to warm up and it's back to life.


 
  
 Another option: I usually use fine sandpaper to clean octal pins.


----------



## mordy

Hi tr,
  
 Happy to hear that it worked - now you can sell the tube for $100+ lol!


----------



## mordy

Here is a low cost alternative to De-Oxit:
  




 $4.77 in Walmart. Play it safe and order it on line for store pick-up - no charge for shipping.
  
 ( 2 oz [vs 11 oz] of de-oxit is around $25 )
  
 I still prefer the mechanical scraping method......


----------



## teamrushpntball

Thanks for all the tips, most these seem safer than my toothpaste method.  I just treated it like i remember cleaning silver as a kid.  I do have a few questions if someone can help.  What's the difference between a Tung Sol 5998 and a Chatham?  And how do you determine how old the tube is on one of these? 
  
 Tried googling but have gotten little useful information.


----------



## gibosi

teamrushpntball said:


> Thanks for all the tips, most these seem safer than my toothpaste method.  I just treated it like i remember cleaning silver as a kid.  I do have a few questions if someone can help.  What's the difference between a Tung Sol 5998 and a Chatham?  And how do you determine how old the tube is on one of these?
> 
> Tried googling but have gotten little useful information.


 
  
 Tung-Sol never manufactured the 5998. Only Chatham manufactured this tube. That said, Tung-Sol acquired Chatham in the mid-1950's, but still, the 5998 continued to be manufactured in Chatham's original factory. And then, slowly, the Chatham brand was allowed to fade away. So, if you see an early Tung-Sol 5998, it was sourced from Chatham and rebranded as a Tung-Sol. And the later Tung-Sol 5998s were still manufactured in the same Chatham factory after being acquired by Tung-Sol.
  
 Dating during the 1950's was typically the last digit of the year and then the week. For example, 733 = 1957, week 33. And later, the last two digits of the year and then the week. For example, 6821 - 1968, week 21.
  
 And sometimes, the date code was attached to Tung-Sols EIA code, 322. So for example, 3226821-3. Some speculate that the "-3" was a specific factory building or assembly line, but I don't know if this is true...


----------



## alvin sawdust

gibosi said:


> Another option: I usually use fine sandpaper to clean octal pins.


 
 Thanks for this tip. It has brought a MWT 6AS7G back from the dead and stopped a CBS 5692 and Marconi B65 from hissing. I always clean the pins with deoxit but evidently that wasn't enough even though the pins looked fairly clean. 
 So all in all some fairly expensive tubes salvaged and my amp has never been so quiet. One happy bunny here


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 I know that there is information out there how to decode the sand blasted dots on the GE tubes, but I have yet to find out how to decipher the codes on some Tung Sol tubes using letter combinations.
  
 Here is an example from a 6BL7GTA tube that says:
  
 322PP-E.
  
 Do you have any idea what PP-E stands for?


----------



## 100VoltTube

Tung-Sol used a lot of dating systems that we know nothing about. I have a 14F7 that appears to have the year on the octagon around "14F7" on the top of the tube and and the week, "22" printed right after "TUNG-SOL" Unless the "22" is part of a 3 digit code and the last digit has come off. Of course, it was made by Sylvania, so the date code might not actually refer to the date it was made.


----------



## teamrushpntball

Hmm, my tube doesn't seem to have any markings like that.  Trying to find anything about it I can.  Is it a real Tung Sol 5998?  Came with an amp so not that upset if it is, and it sounds better than my 6080 and 6as7g Chathams.


Spoiler: Pictures


----------



## gibosi

These weird date codes were used by Tung-Sol and others on consumer grade tubes, that is, tubes commonly used in televisions and other home electronics. Some speculate that consumers were checking the dates on tubes and bringing them back to the dealer because they were a year or two old. They wanted "new" tubes. lol 
  
 So the manufacturers starting using dating systems that could not be deciphered by consumers. And unfortunately, I have yet to find the key to enable the reading of Tung-Sol date codes...
  
 As for the 5998, 6080 and other "industrial" tubes, since these were not commonly used in consumer electronics, but rather, in industrial, commercial and military applications, standard military date codes were used.


----------



## gibosi

teamrushpntball said:


> Hmm, my tube doesn't seem to have any markings like that.  Trying to find anything about it I can.  Is it a real Tung Sol 5998?  Came with an amp so not that upset if it is, and it sounds better than my 6080 and 6as7g Chathams.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Pictures


 
  
 This was manufactured in 1959, week 33. It is a real Tung-Sol manufactured in the original Chatham factory, which was acquired by TS in the mid-1950s.


----------



## mordy

Don't forget that some 5998 tubes were made for early computers, and may say IBM on them.


----------



## 432789

tube hoarders please start selling if you have more than you need.


----------



## attmci

thebrunx said:


> tube hoarders please start selling if you have more than you need.


 
 There are tons of 6bl7s on the market now.


----------



## 432789

attmci said:


> There are tons of 6bl7s on the market now.


C

Woah! I just din't know, which make should I look out for? Thanks man


----------



## attmci

thebrunx said:


> C
> 
> Woah! I just din't know, which make should I look out for? Thanks man


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806043/for-6bl7-tube-users/480#post_13334889


----------



## abvolt

Quote: 





thebrunx said:


> C
> 
> Woah! I just din't know, which make should I look out for? Thanks man


 
 I like both plates the one I'm currently using are sylvania flat ribbed plates very nice sq..


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/806043/for-6bl7-tube-users/480#post_13334889


 
  
 That quote of mine is in regard to 6BX7, which I primarily listen to. So I really can't say much at all about the sound of 6BL7.
  
 That said, given that both the 6BL7 and 6BX7 are quite cheap, I would encourage you to try several brands. GE and Syvania are the most plentiful. And during the early to mid 1950's, it appears that they were the only American manufacturers. Tung Sol and RCA didn't begin manufacturing these tubes until the late 1950's, so before that, they sourced these tubes form GE and Syvania and simply put their name of them. And Toshiba and NEC manufactured these tubes as well.
  
 Again they are cheap so buy lots of them and have fun! lol 
  
 Edit: And as this is the 6AS7 thread, if you want to try these tubes, I would encourage you move to the 6BL7 thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806043/for-6bl7-tube-users


----------



## 432789

I tried to buy 2 into 1 adapter for my darkvoice amp from eBay Hong Kong the seller let me know that it won't work, this are his words "because darkvoice amp different design Elise amp.darkvoice amp one channel using half 6AS7 tube,but Elise amp one channel using one tube,if insert adapter and tube,amp have hum noise." Does anyone have experience with darkvoice? Thanks


----------



## attmci

thebrunx said:


> I tried to buy 2 into 1 adapter for my darkvoice amp from eBay Hong Kong the seller let me know that it won't work, this are his words "because darkvoice amp different design Elise amp.darkvoice amp one channel using half 6AS7 tube,but Elise amp one channel using one tube,if insert adapter and tube,amp have hum noise." Does anyone have experience with darkvoice? Thanks


 

 You may want to post your question to the darkvoice amp forums too.


----------



## attmci

thebrunx said:


> I tried to buy 2 into 1 adapter for my darkvoice amp from eBay Hong Kong the seller let me know that it won't work, this are his words "because darkvoice amp different design Elise amp._*darkvoice amp one channel using half 6AS7 tube*_,but Elise amp one channel using one tube,if insert adapter and tube,amp have hum noise." Does anyone have experience with darkvoice? Thanks





Is that true? Just curious.


----------



## adeadcrab

As a lafigaro 339 (similar to darkvoice) owner the only adapters recommended are for driver tubes, power tubes can't be swapped


----------



## maheeinfy

In my experience, 6ASGA sounded laid back. Mine were GE branded though...

I switched back to RCA 6ASG and didn't bother upgrading. They sound just right - nice smooth tube sound


----------



## adeadcrab (May 25, 2017)

6AS7G is exactly the same as the 6AS7 except with a straight envelope instead of the coke bottle style

edit: 6AS7G*A* is the same as 6AS7G.. the rest still stands


----------



## gug42

Hello,

I'im looking for informations about the sound differences between Chatham and RCA 6AS7G ? Can you help me please ?


----------



## thecrow (Jun 2, 2017)

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'im looking for informations about the sound differences between Chatham and RCA 6AS7G ? Can you help me please ?


If you're talking about chatham 2399 tubes (or tung sol) I would describe them as definitely punchy and lively and somewhat dynamic. Definitely a solid level of detail. I sometimes use them in my wa2.

My main tubes are the gec 6as7g which are up another level


----------



## gibosi

The Chatham/Tung-Sol 2399 is actually a 5998. Chatham/Tung-Sol also manufactured the 6AS7G, 6080 and 7236.

It has been a very long time since I have listened to either the RCA or Chatham 6AS7G, but the one impression that sticks in my mind is the RCA is a good bit warmer than the Chatham.


----------



## gug42 (Jun 2, 2017)

Hum it's for a little dot mkVI+, so 6AS7G (for 5998 a bias tunning is better from what I read, and well 5998 are really expensive)
Ok thank you. I need a quad, so I will test RCA  and maybe Chatham if I can get at a good price.
Others options are really costly (because of quad needed)


----------



## gibosi

The 5998 and 6AS7G are not electrically identical. And therefore, a circuit designed to run 6AS7G is not optimal for the 5998. At the very least, I seem to remember that the recommended cathode resistance for a 6AS7G is about twice as high as that for the 5998. Even so, it is perfectly safe to run the 5998, and in fact, many people believe it to be among the very best tubes available.

But for sure, as you need a quad, a complement of 5998 is likely going to be expensive. But I would remind you that all four tubes do not have to be identical as long as you keep both sides identical. Running one Chatham and one RCA per side just might be a very nice combination. And another combination that I have wanted to try for a long time is one GEC 6080 and one Bendix 6080 per side. Maybe someday I will get around to it....


----------



## Dogmatrix

My take . Looking for Ts / Chatham 6as7g I would go for the 6520 as they seem to be better quality . Concerning Rca I have found the 6as7g to be inconsistent and unreliable with even the Russian version superior in these terms . In my experience best sound on a budget is the early RCA 6080 , although they lack the aesthetic appeal of the 6as7g .


----------



## gibosi (Jun 2, 2017)

My experience is different it seems. I was not able to distinguish any difference tween 6520 and 6AS7G manufactured by Chatham. And the several pairs of RCA I own are all fine. That said, my ears are pretty old, so you should probably take this with a grain of salt. 

But I would generally agree that most 6080 are quieter than 6AS7G.


----------



## 100VoltTube

The 6AS7G is very different from the 5998 electrically. They are similar enough that they can often be substituted without modification to the gear, but if the gear is not designed for the 5998, it might not work properly.
A run down on the differences:

The μ (mu: amplification factor) of the 5998 is 5.4, compared to the 2 of the 6AS7G, meaning that the same bias will result in different plate voltages. In a cap-coupled amp, this is not a big deal, but whenever there's DC coupling, this could be a problem, causing distortion or clipping, or even a release of the magic smoke if the amp is designed in such a way that it would be damaged by a change like that. I wouldn't worry too much about tube gear being damaged, but a hybrid might not like it. It depends on the amp.
The Rp (plate resistance) of the 5998 is 350 ohms, vs the 6AS7G at 280. Not a huge difference.for the most part, it won't matter.
The Gm (transconductance)  of the 5998 is 15.5mS, vs 7mS. This is the most important difference for a cathode follower, which is the output stage topology of most headphone amps, like the Crack. The output impedance of a basic cathode follower is approximately the reciprocal of the transconductance. The output impedance of a 6AS7G-based cathode follower is 1/0.007=142.9 ohms, give or take. A 5998 cathode follower is approximately 1/0.0155=64.5 ohms. This is why 5998's in an OTL amp sound much better than 6AS7G's with lower impedance headphones; a better damping factor.
The plate curves of the 5998 are mugc better (more linear) than the 6AS7G, so there is slightly less distortion.

An A2293 would be an interesting option to try, but it'd need an adapter. Same for the 7233. Both are obscure, cheap, single triodes in a 9-pin miniature package with very good performance. Based on specs alone, I would recommend a pair of 7233's over all of the other options, 5998 included.


----------



## gug42 (Jun 3, 2017)

gibosi said:


> The 5998 and 6AS7G are not electrically identical. And therefore, a circuit designed to run 6AS7G is not optimal for the 5998. At the very least, I seem to remember that the recommended cathode resistance for a 6AS7G is about twice as high as that for the 5998. Even so, it is perfectly safe to run the 5998, and in fact, many people believe it to be among the very best tubes available.
> 
> But for sure, as you need a quad, a complement of 5998 is likely going to be expensive. But I would remind you that all four tubes do not have to be identical as long as you keep both sides identical. Running one Chatham and one RCA per side just might be a very nice combination. And another combination that I have wanted to try for a long time is one GEC 6080 and one Bendix 6080 per side. Maybe someday I will get around to it....



Well I try RCA 6AS7G, will see 
Can you explain a little more about mixing tubes please ?  A pair of tubes is for right channel and a pair for the left ? How did they work well ?

Any good "mix" for a little dot mkVI+ ?




100VoltTube said:


> The 6AS7G is very different from the 5998 electrically. They are similar enough that they can often be substituted without modification to the gear, but if the gear is not designed for the 5998, it might not work properly.
> A run down on the differences:
> 
> The μ (mu: amplification factor) of the 5998 is 5.4, compared to the 2 of the 6AS7G, meaning that the same bias will result in different plate voltages. In a cap-coupled amp, this is not a big deal, but whenever there's DC coupling, this could be a problem, causing distortion or clipping, or even a release of the magic smoke if the amp is designed in such a way that it would be damaged by a change like that. I wouldn't worry too much about tube gear being damaged, but a hybrid might not like it. It depends on the amp.
> ...



Thank you for this clear explanation  Some people use 5998 with a little dot mkVI+ without trouble, but the vu metter goes down to 40 .... I don't know if it's can damage or not the amp ...
Perhaps it could be a must have to modify the Little dot to use full potentiel of 5998 ... but i don't know how to do it ...

At least People who use 5998 with this amp report a "good sound" ... but well they cost half the price of the amp so ...

I did'nt find any russian equivalent for 5998  ?


----------



## gibosi

gug42 said:


> Well I try RCA 6AS7G, will see
> Can you explain a little more about mixing tubes please ?  A pair of tubes is for right channel and a pair for the left ? How did they work well ?
> 
> Any good "mix" for a little dot mkVI+ ?



Your LD is shipped with four RCA 6080, two for the left channel and two for right channel. I am suggesting that you can mix brands as long as both channels are the same. For example, the right channel pair is one RCA and one Chatham and the left channel pair is also one RCA and one Chatham.

I don't know if you will like the sound, but it is worth trying. 



> Thank you for this clear explanation  Some people use 5998 with a little dot mkVI+ without trouble, but the vu metter goes down to 40 .... I don't know if it's can damage or not the amp ...
> Perhaps it could be a must have to modify the Little dot to use full potentiel of 5998 ...



I suggest that you send an email to David at Little Dot and ask him if it is safe to run 5998 in your amp.


----------



## gug42

Ok thank you. I will ask   
Can i try to mix 6as7g and 6080 too  ?  

Thx


----------



## gibosi

The 6080 was developed as an industrial version of the 6AS7G. So while it is not electrically identical to the 6AS7G, it is very similar, and I have mixed them in my amp. However, I do not have a LD, so I can't be sure that it is safe for you to mix them in your amp.

Perhaps another question to ask David....


----------



## adeadcrab

6080 has more detail than the 6AS7G imo. punchy, clicky bass (especially the kick drum) and more resolving mids + treble range.

however for a detailed tube I don't like the cheaper 6080 that much. Best 6080 is the bendix 6080WB.

Also worth noting that amp design and topology can affect the extent that different tubes will change the sound profile of your amp. Your mileage may vary!


----------



## Dogmatrix

My 6080 preference

GEC
Mullard
Bendix
GE Five Star
RCA
Sylvania

Also others like Toshiba and Philips but I suspect they are rebrands and Telefunken but I have never owned a real one


----------



## thecrow

(I posted this in a wa2 thread but had no reply - trying here too)

Just wanted to check here re the gec 6as7g

Am i right in thinking the a1834 labeled tubes are a slightky better grade than the cv2423 and 6as7g of all these brown base gec tubes?

I read it a while ago but cant find or remeber it

And a z code, i think, meant hammersmith factory. 
Does that carry any weight?

Thanks for any help


----------



## gibosi

thecrow said:


> (I posted this in a wa2 thread but had no reply - trying here too)
> 
> Just wanted to check here re the gec 6as7g
> 
> ...



I doubt it. A1834 is simply an old British number for this tube. And further, the color of the base is of no significance. The only thing that matters is what is inside the bottle. Applying the silk-screened labels and mounting the base were done after the bottle had been manufactured and evacuated.

And yes, the Z code indicates that the tube was manufactured by the MO Valve Company, at their Hammersmith, London, factory.


----------



## UntilThen

Absolutely - a1834, cv2423 and 6as7g, they are all the same.

I just bought this very good condition tube for $80. There are still bargains out there if you get them single.


 

 

and this for $35...


----------



## thecrow

UntilThen said:


> Absolutely - a1834, cv2423 and 6as7g, they are all the same.
> 
> I just bought this very good condition tube for $80. There are still bargains out there if you get them single.
> 
> ...


I made an offer for the tube for $80 aud. i shiuld have just bought it for the $100 asked for. 

Enjoy!!


----------



## UntilThen

thecrow said:


> I made an offer for the tube for $80 aud. i shiuld have just bought it for the $100 asked for.
> 
> Enjoy!!



Thanks mate. 

Bought this to back up my incoming NOS pair. ... and thanks for letting me try your GEC tubes at the Meet.


----------



## gug42

gibosi said:


> The 6080 was developed as an industrial version of the 6AS7G. So while it is not electrically identical to the 6AS7G, it is very similar, and I have mixed them in my amp. However, I do not have a LD, so I can't be sure that it is safe for you to mix them in your amp.
> 
> Perhaps another question to ask David....



Interesting. Yes probably a good question


----------



## 100VoltTube

the 6080 and 6as7 are supposed to be electrically identical.


----------



## gibosi

If you compare the specifications listed in the datasheets, you will see that the Direct Interelectrode Capacitances are slightly different, but otherwise, yes, the 6080 and 6AS7G appear to be electrically identical. And it is true that many consider the 6080 and 6AS7G to be similar enough to be interchangeable in most applications, However, given that my knowledge and experience are quite limited, I always try to err on the side of caution. 

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/6AS7G.pdf

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/6080.pdf


----------



## 100VoltTube

That is true. I actually hadn't looked at those numbers closely until now.

I would also like to point you to the GE datasheet for the 6AS7g(a). It has different capacitance ratings, as does this datasheet for the 6080. What the cause of this is, I don't know. It might just be different manufacturers' different internal constructions having different capacitance.

Besides capacitance (or not?), the 6080 and 6AS7 have the same ratings and performance.


----------



## gug42

Hello,

What could be the sound differences between RCA and Chatam for 6AS7G ? Anyone heard both ?

thx !


----------



## Skylab

At a high level, the RCA is warmer but somewhat less transparent. The Chatham is more balanced and transparent.  Both nice, but I think the Chatham 6AS7G's are noticeably better than the RCA.


----------



## gug42

Ok thx you   i will give them a try. 

By the way i have read a good review about tung sol / chatam 6080. Anyone here try this one ( little dot mk6)

Thx


----------



## gug42

Did you ever see some GE 5998A with orange base ? 
No post here about them ... and google is silent about them


----------



## gibosi

gug42 said:


> Did you ever see some GE 5998A with orange base ?
> No post here about them ... and google is silent about them



In my experience, the color and shape of the base has no effect on the sound. After all, it is a relatively simple matter to remove and replace the base of an octal tube. The only thing that matters is what is inside the glass bottle. And therefore, a pair of 5998A, one with a black base and one with an orange base, should sound identical as long as they were manufactured at about the same time.


----------



## gug42 (Jun 26, 2017)

Ok thank you  
From what I read, I'm not really interested by GE 5998A.

Is there some people with some pics of Tung-Sol 5998*A  *
Can't find some


----------



## GrindingThud

Like this GE in my WA3? It is more of a light amber color:






gug42 said:


> Ok thank you
> From what I read, I'm not really interested by GE 5998A.
> 
> Is there some people with some pics of Tung-Sol 5998*A  *
> Can't find some


----------



## gug42

Thank you, exactly. Internal looking like standartd GE, perhaps a more taller bottle.

Did you compare it against others  ?  

Regards


----------



## gibosi

gug42 said:


> Is there some people with some pics of Tung-Sol 5998*A  *
> Can't find some



To the best of my knowledge, only GE manufactured the straight-bottle 5998A. On the other hand, the coke-bottle 5998 was manufactured by Chatham/Tung-Sol. And then there is Western Electric's 5998, more commonly labeled as a 421A. Some folks think the 421A was manufactured by Chatham for Western Electric, while others think Western Electric manufactured the 421A in-house. I don't know...


----------



## GrindingThud

I'd say it is similar in sound to a sylvania 7236. Visually, it looks the same as the 6AS7GA. 


gug42 said:


> Thank you, exactly. Internal looking like standartd GE, perhaps a more taller bottle.
> 
> Did you compare it against others  ?
> 
> Regards


----------



## gug42

Hello

Looking for some opinon  about the sound quality and signature of sylvania 5998A


----------



## SonicTrance

gug42 said:


> Looking for some opinon about the sound quality and signature of sylvania 5998A





gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, only GE manufactured the straight-bottle 5998A. On the other hand, the coke-bottle 5998 was manufactured by Chatham/Tung-Sol. And then there is Western Electric's 5998, more commonly labeled as a 421A. Some folks think the 421A was manufactured by Chatham for Western Electric, while others think Western Electric manufactured the 421A in-house. I don't know...


----------



## gug42 (Jul 6, 2017)

Hello,

Thank you i have see this and other stuff about 5998a physical  differences between sylvania and tung sol ( and others). But well not many review about SQ.

Appart my opinion, I'd like to have some others peoples opinion  that my one.

Regards,


----------



## mmf1

Anyone know the difference between Raytheon's CK 6080WA and their JAN 6080WA? 

I've found literally next to nothing about their CK 6080WA.


----------



## RodneyMarion

glitch39 said:


> you mean a brown base 6as7g like this?


Very nice


----------



## myphone (Sep 4, 2017)

Need help identifying maker of this tube? From eBay, no label. Weight is like regular 6080, lighter than either Bendix solid or slotted graphic tube.


----------



## gibosi

All that I have seen, including the one I have, are labeled Raytheon 6080WB. And yes, it looks like a Bendix, with the ceramic spacers and metal bracing, but black metal plates, instead of graphite. As mine has halo getters and yours has rectangular getters, yours is likely older than mine. Unfortunately, I have only the one, so I have no idea how it sounds....


----------



## myphone (Sep 4, 2017)

Interesting.

Gibosi, Thanks for your reply.

The Raytheon 6080WB and 6080WC I have are quite different.


----------



## myphone (Sep 4, 2017)

gibosi said:


> All that I have seen, including the one I have, are labeled Raytheon 6080WB. And yes, it looks like a Bendix, with the ceramic spacers and metal bracing, but black metal plates, instead of graphite. As mine has halo getters and yours has rectangular getters, yours is likely older than mine. Unfortunately, I have only the one, so I have no idea how it sounds....



I played it on DV336, with HD650 for a short time. I much prefer 7236 or 6336B tubes. Have not tried the "regular" Raytheon 6080WB yet.


----------



## larcenasb (Sep 8, 2017)

Can someone please try this test just for a little peer review(!):

RCA 6AS7G, black plates (BP) vs grey plates (GP). I know it's often discussed, and for the longest time I thought, like the majority of others, that even if there is a difference, it would be virtually indistinguishable...

But I just did a blind test with the help of a friend and, 10 out of 10 times, I was able to identify the BP from the GP. It seems I've discovered a noticeable difference: _physiological and emotional involvement_.

My set-up: AudioQuest DragonFly 1.0 -> DIY Canare 3.5mm-to-RCAs -> Bottlehead Crack w/ Speedball (fully modded) -> AKG K240 Sextett MP (Mogami re-cable)

Other particulars: both tubes have JAN markings and test NOS, driver tube was an RCA 6F8G/VT-99 smoked-glass, volume was set and untouched throughout the test (loud-normal level), my friend switched the tubes as I sat facing away, sample song was a 3000 kbps vinyl rip of "Hello" by Adele.

Test Procedure for Assistant:

01. Have Foobar (or listener's favorite music player) open and ready to play test song.
02. With amp off, insert BP tube (letting listener know it's the BP).
03. Turn on amp.
04. Wait 30 seconds to allow tube to warm up.
05. Play song, starting from the 1:00 mark.
06. Stop song at 1:15.
07. Power off amp.
08. Replace BP with GP tube (again, letting listener know it's the GP).
09. Repeat steps 3-7.
10. Now randomly select and insert either BP or GP into amp (w/o letting listener know which tube) and write down selection as part of an ongoing list.
11. Repeat steps 3-7.
12. Ask listener: "Was that the BP or the GP?"
13. Mark down answer.
14. Repeat steps 10-13 until 10 trials are completed.

My Conclusion:

Focusing purely on involvement, I'm listening to try and notice if one tube allows the music to _grab me more_. What do I mean by that? Well, I always noticed with my BP (coupled with an RCA 6F8G smoked-glass) that at 1:07 of the song, when Adele launches off with "Hello from the otherrr siiii-iiiiiiiiide!" for the first time--and specifically at 1:09 during "siiii-iiiiiiiiide!"--I am physiologically reacting: holding my breath a bit as my insides churn and I think for a second that I understand--in a rational way--what spirituality means lol. Additionally, I notice there is a little more body and weight with the BP. When I switched to my newly acquired GP, I didn't get the physiological reaction; the sounds were nice but didn't _demand_ my attention or my emotions. Also, there was less body and weight (if the BP is a 9/10 in terms of weight, the GP is a 7/10). So, I decided to do this test with my NOS back-ups of each respective tube. And I was able to tell the difference--10 for 10. It was easy because I wasn't listening for subtle differences like tone, treble smoothness, soundscape width, etc., I was taking note of how I felt during each trial--and each time I held my breath at that crescendo, felt that visceral-but-lovely hurricane in my soul, and smiled...I chose "BP."

End Notes:

1. When I switch out the RCA 6F8G smoked-glass for any other driver tubes I have (Ken-Rad 6F8G, Sylvania 6F8G, Tung-Sol 12BH7, Mullard 12AU7, et al.) the aforementioned feeling is no longer there, except for my Tung-Sol 6SN7GT RP, but the feeling isn't as intense. This seems a discovered synergy between the two RCA tubes in my system.
2. My RCA 6F8G smoked-glass used to always tame the highs, lacking bite, but since bypassing the 470uF PS caps in my Bottlehead Crack with 4.7uF ClarityCap PXs, the grey wolf got aggressive (that was the most noticeable upgrade for me after the Speedball and Alps volume pot). Again, another star aligning to create this whole synergy.

If anyone is able to get close enough to the control group I had in this test and can try it out themselves, I'd love to hear your findings. I know how system dependent this is, but at the very least, a more general distinction regarding my findings of "body and weight to the sound" would be informative. Thanks and happy listening!


----------



## DecentLevi

So are you saying you like the black plate version a lot better? And do you have any photo examples of the two? I recently ordered a pair of RCA 6as7G for my Euforia amp but I'm not sure which of those mine is


----------



## DecentLevi

@larcenasb here's a photo of the RCA 6AS7G's I got - maybe you can tell me if this is the one you liked better or not. It seems grey though. Thanks


----------



## larcenasb (Sep 8, 2017)

DecentLevi said:


> So are you saying you like the black plate version a lot better? And do you have any photo examples of the two? I recently ordered a pair of RCA 6as7G for my Euforia amp but I'm not sure which of those mine is





DecentLevi said:


> @larcenasb here's a photo of the RCA 6AS7G's I got - maybe you can tell me if this is the one you liked better or not. It seems grey though. Thanks



Hi DecentLevi,

I'm saying--as a stickler--that the black plate has noticeably more gusto. But I don't see how one can be an enthusiast and not also in some degree a stickler; I happen to collect and enjoy vintage audio tubes like fine wine.  Still, wait...as I said in my above write-up, the BP's gusto--its powerful involvement--is really a part of a chain that depends on many links in my system (K240 headphones, Bottlehead mods, RCA 6F8G/VT-99, the vinyl rip of the test song, et al.), but nonetheless it's as mandatory a link as any of the others. I cannot remove the BP if I want that powerful, involved feeling when I listen. And I was just wanting to see if anyone else can also differentiate the BP from the GP.

This is not to say that the RCA 6AS7G GP belongs in storage, eBay listings, or the trash bin (they are still basically the same apart from those last degrees of involvement and weight in my findings). So...

...if I switch from the GP to my Sylvania GB6080, the soundscape width shrinks as does the overall sense of scale. Treble reach also lessens. The big, beautiful roundness of the RCA-sound is much preferred (in my opinion) to the Sylvania's more constricted (though liquid and still enjoyable) sound.

...if I switch from the GP to the Tung-Sol 7236, dynamics, clarity, and instrument separation all increase noticeably. But the sound is more solid-state--lacking in that smoothed, lifelike presentation so many of us adore. Also, though the soundscape width and depth are good, the sound doesn't _reach_ me as the RCA tubes do. This is a bit difficult to explain: with the RCA (both BP & GP) the "big beautiful roundness" I mentioned is a like a good-sized bubble of sound around my head that's lush and eerily lifelike. The Tung-Sol's sound is also a wide bubble, but remains mostly towards the wall of the bubble (what I meant by it "doesn't reach me"). Considering this soundscape-bubble around our heads, let's say the midpoint is 1 and the wall of the bubble in any direction is 10, the RCA's sound lives within the space from 1-10, the Tung-Sol within 5-10; so, it's goes as wide, but isn't as deep overall. Hopefully that makes sense.

All in all, the RCA 6AS7G GP is still a fantastic, big-sounding, lifelike power tube that I think (along with its BP brother) doesn't get as much praise as it deserves. Many seem to prefer the technical superiority of the 7236 and the 5998, which of course is understandable (it's the immediate noticeable difference from the RCA), but I don't find those tubes nearly as involving, with my setup and preferences of course.

Hope that helps. And yes, yours--apart from the military spec--are identical to my GP tube. Here's a photo of the RCA tubes used in my test:


----------



## dobigstuff

I was using this combo for a little while:




NOS USA Tung-Sol 7236 Power, NOS USA Tung-Sol 6SN7 Driver.  Great Power. Tight Bass.  Sometimes the Highs can be a little too forward.


----------



## dobigstuff

Just switched it up yesterday:




NOS JAN Sylvania 5998A Power, NOS Sylvania 6SN7 Driver.  So far very warm.  Bass is still deep.  Still have great power as well.


----------



## 100VoltTube

Did Tung-Sol make 6AS7's? I spotted a Tung Sol 6AS7 box (I think it was too small to be a 6AS7G, so it must have been a GA) in my school's electronics lab yesterday, but I had never heard of Tung-Sol making 6AS7's before.
Does anyone have any info?


----------



## attmci

100VoltTube said:


> Did Tung-Sol make 6AS7's? I spotted a Tung Sol 6AS7 box (I think it was too small to be a 6AS7G, so it must have been a GA) in my school's electronics lab yesterday, but I had never heard of Tung-Sol making 6AS7's before.
> Does anyone have any info?


Yes. Tung Sol/Chatham 6AS7G is a popular tube (not as popular as their 5998  ).


----------



## gibosi (Sep 16, 2017)

Tung-Sol never manufactured the 6AS7G. The only American manufacturers were Chatham and RCA. However, with the purchase of Chatham, Tung-Sol took over Chatham's manufacturing facilities for the 6AS7, 7236, 6080, 5998 and others. I would guess that these tubes were one of the reasons Tung-Sol decided to acquire Chatham. So technically, after the mid-1950's, the Tung-Sol 6AS7G was manufactured in a Chatham factory, owned and operated by Tung-Sol. Prior to that, Tung-Sol sourced tubes from both RCA and Chatham and put their label on them.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Tung-Sol never manufactured the 6AS7G. The only American manufacturers were Chatham and RCA. However, with the purchase of Chatham, Tung-Sol took over Chatham's manufacturing facilities for the 6AS7, 7236, 6080, 5998 and others. I would guess that these tubes were one of the reasons Tung-Sol decided to acquire Chatham. So technically, after the mid-1950's, the Tung-Sol 6AS7G was manufactured in a Chatham factory, owned and operated by Tung-Sol. Prior to that, Tung-Sol sourced tubes from both RCA and Chatham and put their label on them.


Hi Gibosi,

Speaking of 6AS7G tubes, did GE make their own, or were they relabeled RCAs?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Speaking of 6AS7G tubes, did GE make their own, or were they relabeled RCAs?



I have seen no evidence to suggest that GE manufactured the 6AS7G. And yes, I have seen RCA-made 6AS7G labeled as GE. And while I have not seen a Chatham 6AS7G labeled as a GE, I think it is likely that they exist. So I am pretty sure they did not manufacture the 6AS7G, but they did manufacture the straight-bottle 6AS7GA.


----------



## attmci (Sep 17, 2017)

These NOS 5998s are so "cheap": http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-50-039-s-TUNG-SOL-5998-Vacuum-Tube-PAIR-NOS-/311957094791?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&nma=true&si=TZzXlEbMoV3WXMFYIGv%2BklnztWU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Mordy,  did you get it? LOL


----------



## abvolt (Sep 16, 2017)

I'd agree that is cheap for a 5998..enjoy


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> These NOS 5998s are so cheap: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-50-039-s-TUNG-SOL-5998-Vacuum-Tube-PAIR-NOS-/311957094791?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&nma=true&si=TZzXlEbMoV3WXMFYIGv%2BklnztWU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
> 
> Mordy,  did you get it? LOL


Hi attmci,

No - did not get them. The two TS5998 tubes  that I have I bought separately for a much lower cost, but it took a lot of patience to find the right deal.
Some time back I saw a picture of dimpled plates 5998 under the Dumont label, but they were already gone for $35 for the pair.


----------



## attmci (Sep 17, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi attmci,
> 
> No - did not get them. The two TS5998 tubes  that I have I bought separately for a much lower cost, but it took a lot of patience to find the right deal.
> Some time back I saw a picture of dimpled plates 5998 under the Dumont label, but they were already gone for $35 for the pair.


You always got the best deals.

Watch out for those clear-top 2399. Now I know why those "5998" vs "421A" debating came from.

I agree with Jamie except the " or 2" LOL: "If you can find a 1950s 5998 clear top grab it quick its defiantly a level or 2 above both my single and twin getter 5998s and  I would go so far as to say I prefer it to the WE421a. With the clear top the 5998 essentially it looks near identical to the WE421a and I would say its a good mix of combining both the detail and musicality of the two separate tubes."


----------



## mordy (Sep 17, 2017)

attmci said:


> You always got the best deals.
> 
> Watch out for those clear-top 2399. Now I know why those "5998" vs "421A" debating came from.
> 
> I agree with Jamie except the " or 2" LOL: "If you can find a 1950s 5998 clear top grab it quick its defiantly a level or 2 above both my single and twin getter 5998s and  I would go so far as to say I prefer it to the WE421a. With the clear top the 5998 essentially it looks near identical to the WE421a and I would say its a good mix of combining both the detail and musicality of the two separate tubes."


Hi attmci,

Gibosi is the one who gets the best deals - just ask him....
What I learned from him is to check often and to look for rebranded tubes, and to identify unbranded or mislabeled offers.


----------



## Scutey

I've just bought a Chatham 6as7g from ebay for $12, however the centre pin has broken off, i'm assuming that it should still be fine to use in my soon to arrive Darkvoice,  does anybody know if my assumption is right?.


----------



## gibosi

As long as you are careful to line the guide key correctly when inserting the tube in the socket, it will be perfectly fine. And for those who find it to be too much trouble to line it up by eye, these replacement guide pins are very useful:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pcs-Vacuu...ken-Guide-Key-Fix-Repair-Keyway-/152149115670


----------



## Scutey

gibosi said:


> As long as you are careful to line the guide key correctly when inserting the tube in the socket, it will be perfectly fine. And for those who find it to be too much trouble to line it up by eye, these replacement guide pins are very useful:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pcs-Vacuu...ken-Guide-Key-Fix-Repair-Keyway-/152149115670


gibosi, thanks for confirming for me, just wanted to make sure, thanks also for sharing the link for those socket key saver, that's a great idea, first I will have a go at fitting it without just a bit of concentration and a steady hand required
but if my nerve runs out I will defo get some!.


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Skylab said:


> At a high level, the RCA is warmer but somewhat less transparent. The Chatham is more balanced and transparent.  Both nice, but I think the Chatham 6AS7G's are noticeably better than the RCA.



Hi Skylab, haven't seen you for a while. Do you still consider the Leben CS300XS the best tube amp for headphones? I still remember the lush sound but wonder you have found anything that is even better.


----------



## Skylab

LouisArmstrong said:


> Hi Skylab, haven't seen you for a while. Do you still consider the Leben CS300XS the best tube amp for headphones? I still remember the lush sound but wonder you have found anything that is even better.



Hey there Satchmo,

I’m still around, but I don’t post a whole lot anymore. My kids are grown now, and off at college, so while I listen to music a LOT, it’s mostly through speakers these days.i don’t think I’m a good authority anymore on what’s new in headphone amps. But I too sometimes miss that beautiful Leben Sound


----------



## Rossliew

Methinks @Skylab loves his vintage gear more


----------



## Skylab

Rossliew said:


> Methinks @Skylab loves his vintage gear more



Yup, that’s 100% true. Still using my Pioneer SX-1980 both with my Audeze headphones and with Pioneer DSS-9 speakers. And loving it


----------



## Rossliew

What do you think of the Luxman R-1050?


----------



## mordy

Hi Skylab,

Oldies but goodies.... I am using an old 80's Sony 1110W integrated amp and I really like it. But...there is always better - depends on how much you want to spend. Can't beat the price of that old Sony - it  was free.....


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> Hi Skylab,
> 
> Oldies but goodies.... I am using an old 80's Sony 1110W integrated amp and I really like it. But...there is always better - depends on how much you want to spend. Can't beat the price of that old Sony - it  was free.....


His SX-1980 is the most powerful one for speakers.


----------



## attmci

What's this??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-4...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## angpsi

attmci said:


> What's this??
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-421A-Vacuum-Tube-Tested-Excellent-/182824020529?hash=item2a91292a31:g:OTsAAOSwnOFZ3rFH&nma=true&si=TZzXlEbMoV3WXMFYIGv%2BklnztWU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


For $9.99, someone should at least let the rest of us know how it turned out!


----------



## attmci

angpsi said:


> For $9.99, someone should at least let the rest of us know how it turned out!


Not me. You?


----------



## angpsi

Nah... not me. Didn't even know these things existed.


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> What's this??
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-421A-Vacuum-Tube-Tested-Excellent-/182824020529?hash=item2a91292a31:g:OTsAAOSwnOFZ3rFH&nma=true&si=TZzXlEbMoV3WXMFYIGv%2BklnztWU%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


Hi attmci,

The 421A is a 6AS7G/5998  ST type tube made for Western Electric by Chatham/Tung Sol. The tube pictured looks like the 6080 family - possibly a mislabeled TS 7236 or similar.


----------



## attmci (Oct 21, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hi attmci,
> 
> The 421A is a 6AS7G/5998  ST type tube made for Western Electric by Chatham/Tung Sol. The tube pictured looks like the 6080 family - possibly a mislabeled TS 7236 or similar.


Thanks Mordy. I know 421A. My clear-top Chatham 2399 sounds very similar to a 421A.
But I don't think that 6080 is mislabeled. I suspicious some smart guy may have done something to that tube. 

I am 85% sure it's a 7236.


----------



## Scutey

Has anyone used a Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand ?, I have found one review of this tube but little else, so was wondering if anyone had experiences of it as it seems it might be worth a look.


----------



## gibosi

Have you seen this review? Unfortunately, all the pics have disappeared and there are a few errors, especially the claim that the Mullard. Telefunken, Valvo and GEC 6080 are all the same, but still, there is some useful info here:

http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html

And I would agree with the reviewer that the Sylvania 6080 is sweet, liquid and musical, that is, it sounds like a Sylvania. If this is a sound signature you like and the price is right, it might well be worth a try.


----------



## Scutey

gibosi,

Thanks for the link, seems like it might be worth a look, especially at $9.99 for NOS.


----------



## 333jeffery

I notice that some folks use the 6336 tube in place of the 6as7. Has anyone here tried this? I'm getting an Apex Teton soon and am curious about trying the 6336's in it. I have some Amperex 6as7's to try in it as well.


----------



## mordy

Scutey said:


> Has anyone used a Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand ?, I have found one review of this tube but little else, so was wondering if anyone had experiences of it as it seems it might be worth a look.





Scutey said:


> Has anyone used a Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand ?, I have found one review of this tube but little else, so was wondering if anyone had experiences of it as it seems it might be worth a look.


Hi Scutey,

In general, I like the Sylvania 6080 a lot. The Sylvania Gold series should be the same, but with an extended 10,000 hour service life. I do have the Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand but I don't think that they sound better than the regular ones. 

The RCA 6080 are very inexpensive and sound very good - an under rated tube.

The best sounding 6080 I have is the GEC, but unfortunately the prices hit the sky lately.


----------



## mordy

333jeffery said:


> I notice that some folks use the 6336 tube in place of the 6as7. Has anyone here tried this? I'm getting an Apex Teton soon and am curious about trying the 6336's in it. I have some Amperex 6as7's to try in it as well.


Hi 333jeffery,

As I understand it the 6336 is a double 6AS7 that draws 4.75A. I haven't tried them because my amp can't handle so much current. From the impressions of what  I read there is no sonic improvement of the 6336 over the 6AS7 which draws 2.5A.

Re the Amperex 6AS7G I am curious how they look - some Russian Svetlana 6N13S have been re-branded as Amperex. Do you have a picture? The double inverted saucer getters are a give-away. Here is a current offering of such a forgery (this one says Made In Holland) - you can see one of the saucer getters on top left:







https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-6A...998655&hash=item21306f7ef6:g:cu8AAOSw7D9Z4mDF

And another one (Made in England) where you can clearly see both saucer getters on the bottom of the picture:






https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-AMPER...590320&hash=item56848ff900:g:eZwAAOSw9KpXATGJ


Here are the original Svetlana 6N13S for less than $14 each shipped:






https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6N13S-A...600030&hash=item4b26e8bf9f:g:hrQAAOSwZQRYb1uw


----------



## myphone (Oct 22, 2017)

333jeffery said:


> I notice that some folks use the 6336 tube in place of the 6as7. Has anyone here tried this? I'm getting an Apex Teton soon and am curious about trying the 6336's in it. I have some Amperex 6as7's to try in it as well.



I have used 6336B tube in DV336 with external heater 10 A power supply for a short time.

Driving HD650 and T1, 6336B-tubed-DV336 has more control, and more ease, than the regular 6080/7236/5998. Effortless in one word. I suspect the effect is more related to two parallel tungsol 6080 tubes.

Still no match to Feliks Euforia. I recently bought another 10 A external heater transformer. Have not had time to setup 6336B in Feliks Euforia yet, (one 10A heater for each tube).


----------



## myphone (Oct 22, 2017)

attmci said:


> You always got the best deals.
> 
> Watch out for those clear-top 2399. Now I know why those "5998" vs "421A" debating came from.
> 
> I agree with Jamie except the " or 2" LOL: "If you can find a 1950s 5998 clear top grab it quick its defiantly a level or 2 above both my single and twin getter 5998s and  I would go so far as to say I prefer it to the WE421a. With the clear top the 5998 essentially it looks near identical to the WE421a and I would say its a good mix of combining both the detail and musicality of the two separate tubes."



attmci, that is interesting. I have had a pair of 1958 clear-top and 2 pairs 1958 chrome top 5998 for years. Have only used chrome top 5998 pair so far. Their structures are very different. The clear-top structure is similar to 421A.

Need to compare these two tubes.


----------



## myphone




----------



## Scutey

mordy said:


> Hi Scutey,
> 
> In general, I like the Sylvania 6080 a lot. The Sylvania Gold series should be the same, but with an extended 10,000 hour service life. I do have the Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand but I don't think that they sound better than the regular ones.
> 
> ...


Hi mordy,

Thanks for the info will have to have a look at the RCA's as well, anything that is inexpensive and decent I will look at!, the Thomson 6080 WA also looks worth a look as well, i'd love to have a try at the GEC but at £125 from Langrex that is way too much for me.


----------



## 333jeffery

Thanks for the info. My Amperex tubes look just like the ones you have posted. Come in the Amperex boxes, too, with Tektronix test stickers on them. So these were made by Svetlana?


----------



## gibosi

Amperex was a wholly owned subsidiary of Philips. And to the best of my knowledge, Philips did not manufacture the 6AS7 in any of their factories. Thus any 6AS7 out there labeled as a  Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, or other Philips brand were sourced from another company. And as Mordy notes above, many of them are Russian.


----------



## mordy

333jeffery said:


> Thanks for the info. My Amperex tubes look just like the ones you have posted. Come in the Amperex boxes, too, with Tektronix test stickers on them. So these were made by Svetlana?


Yes - hope you did not pay too much for them. The Svetlanas are OK, but there are better sounding ones out there. A good sounding 6AS7G that is inexpensive is the RCA. I had very good results pairing the RCA 6AS7G with Foton 6N8S that can be bought for $3-4 each including shipping.


----------



## rexhu100

Any idea why 6080 tubes never got the attentions that 6SN7 tubes got?


----------



## gug42

They are not very linear nor the best sounding. 6SN7 are very linear and very good sounding ....
The 6AS7G/6080 are interesting because they have very low internal impedance and can be use without output transformer for lowering the cost of the amp. 

And well the "hype" is around the 6SN7, for sure, can't do anything about this


----------



## mordy

rexhu100 said:


> Any idea why 6080 tubes never got the attentions that 6SN7 tubes got?


Hi rexhu100,

The amp I have (Feliks Audio Euforia) uses four tubes, 6SN7 family as drivers, and 6AS7/6080 type tubes as power tubes, so I have rolled quite a few different 6080 tubes. (RCA, Tung Sol, HP, Sylvania, Philips, Chatham, Mullard)

IMHO the best sounding 6080 is the GEC 6080, but they are very expensive.

A lot of the sound quality has to do with synergy between the driver and power tubes. It is possible to get great sound in my amp with very inexpensive Foton 6SN7 equivalents and RCA 6AS7G tubes.


----------



## rexhu100

mordy said:


> Hi rexhu100,
> 
> The amp I have (Feliks Audio Euforia) uses four tubes, 6SN7 family as drivers, and 6AS7/6080 type tubes as power tubes, so I have rolled quite a few different 6080 tubes. (RCA, Tung Sol, HP, Sylvania, Philips, Chatham, Mullard)
> 
> ...



I do see a lot of examples using 6080 as the power tube. Which is why I think it's strange that I rarely see any efforts to replicate the old tubes by companies like Psvane, which makes many new 6SN7 tubes.


----------



## mordy

rexhu100 said:


> I do see a lot of examples using 6080 as the power tube. Which is why I think it's strange that I rarely see any efforts to replicate the old tubes by companies like Psvane, which makes many new 6SN7 tubes.


Interesting observation. To the best of my knowledge there are no present manufacturers of either the 6AS7 and the 6080 tubes - must be that there are plenty of them around.
The greatest availability is the Svetlana 6N13S/6H13C or similar Russian 6AS7 equivalents. And as you know, this tube is used for a number of forgeries under various famous names.


----------



## gug42 (Nov 2, 2017)

The only advantage of the 6AS7 famillies is the low internant impedance (and of course low output impedance)
- Can be used without output transformer (low output impedance needed, with some counter reaction it s possible)
- With output transformer, large impedance adaptation ca be possible

And the limited dissipation of that tube limits the usage .... to headphones amp or very sensitivity speaker ... 

Indeed they are not very linear tube ....  Well if a modern compagnie could build a very linear, good souding, and low impedance tubes, it could be very interesting !


----------



## rexhu100

gug42 said:


> The only advantage of the 6AS7 famillies is the low internant impedance (and of course low output impedance)
> - Can be used without output transformer (low output impedance needed, with some counter reaction it s possible)
> - With output transformer, large impedance adaptation ca be possible
> 
> ...



Like many people pointed out in this thread, the WE 421A tube is pretty highly regarded (and expensive too!), so I'm very surprised that companies like Psvane, which seems to be obsessed with WE tubes (they have a WE Series!), is not making a replica of this tube. CRAZY!


----------



## attmci

rexhu100 said:


> Like many people pointed out in this thread, the WE 421A tube is pretty highly regarded (and expensive too!), so I'm very surprised that companies like Psvane, which seems to be obsessed with WE tubes (they have a WE Series!), is not making a replica of this tube. CRAZY!


I am not sure if they can replica the QC of the WE421A. Otherwise, all the new "421A" may have to go to land fill.


----------



## gug42 (Nov 2, 2017)

Hello,

For sure the WE421A is now expensive, but it's remain a tube with a max dissipation of 15W, max anode of 270V, and not really considered as the most linear. Advantages are double triode (usefull for push pull or parallel SE) and low internal impedance. So not so linear nor famous than the 2A3 (for the same power class).

For building a high end headphone amp with two stage there is some really good choice on the market actually like KT66 or 2A3 .... 

And aggree with attmci quality control could be a subject.

And remember the tube market is really small, the headphone amp is small too .... and the headphone tube amp are really really small ...
And you can already but a good and powerfull headphone amp with tubes available .... and the most exepensive part of the amp are not the tubes, for sure, but good quality transformers  and capa too (I know it,  I'm building  an SE amp).

But for sure, in the modern production, if we could have a tube designed for headphone amp, it wil be a really cool thing : low internal impedance, linear, good sounding, dual triode, limited voltage needed. Hope for the best and let see if shuguang (or other) do it 

A+


----------



## Skylab

mordy said:


> Interesting observation. To the best of my knowledge there are no present manufacturers of either the 6AS7 and the 6080 tubes - must be that there are plenty of them around.
> The greatest availability is the Svetlana 6N13S/6H13C or similar Russian 6AS7 equivalents. And as you know, this tube is used for a number of forgeries under various famous names.



There are MOUNTAINS of the 6N13S/6H13C. You can easily buy them by the case of 100 for $1 a tube.


----------



## attmci (Nov 3, 2017)

[ATTMCI Said]There could be MOUNTAINS of the 5998. You can easily buy them by the case of 100 for $30 a tube.


----------



## Skylab (Nov 3, 2017)

It would be awesome if there were mountains of 5998’s!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Hey ya'll - I've searched this thread for answers, looking for someone to clarify if there is a discernible sonic difference between a Tung Sol 6AS7G and the Tung Sol 6520.  Seems that most have said that the differences are "subtle" or there are none to be heard.

Anyone have firsthand experience and be willing to share?  I have a nice pair of TS/Chatham 6AS7G's that I really like in my BH Crack, wondering if it's worth hunting down the 6520 or if I'd be wasting my money.


----------



## attmci

L0rdGwyn said:


> Hey ya'll - I've searched this thread for answers, looking for someone to clarify if there is a discernible sonic difference between a Tung Sol 6AS7G and the Tung Sol 6520.  Seems that most have said that the differences are "subtle" or there are none to be heard.
> 
> Anyone have firsthand experience and be willing to share?  I have a nice pair of TS/Chatham 6AS7G's that I really like in my BH Crack, wondering if it's worth hunting down the 6520 or if I'd be wasting my money.


Don't have a 6520.

But look at the pictures in the thread, and make sure you get the middle one and let us know the results.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/tung-sol-6520-rare-similar-to-5998-6as7.366003/
May I suggest you to try a 5998 first?


----------



## gibosi

I am pretty sure that the Chatham 6520 and 6AS7G are identical. Those who hear sonic differences are likely hearing differences due to the the tubes being manufactured at different times. A 6520 and 6AS7G manufactured at the same time should sound identical.

As attmci suggests, chasing after a 5998 might be a better idea.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

gibosi said:


> I am pretty sure that the Chatham 6520 and 6AS7G are identical. Those who hear sonic differences are likely hearing differences due to the the tubes being manufactured at different times. A 6520 and 6AS7G manufactured at the same time should sound identical.
> 
> As attmci suggests, chasing after a 5998 might be a better idea.



Great, thanks for your input.  I have a set of 5998's as well which are great, but I do enjoy the warmer tilt the TS 6AS7G's provide.  If the 6520 were to have a similar tonal shift but with better air/clarity, I would have been very interested, but it sounds like that may not be the case.

And thank you @attmci for your thoughts, if I come across a 6520 with domino plates and decide to pick it up, I will most definitely share my comparison here 

Much appreciated!


----------



## gibosi

And of course, a 6520 with domino plates is simply a mislabeled 5998. I recommend that you don't always trust the text and graphics printed on a tube...


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> And of course, a 6520 with domino plates is simply a mislabeled 5998. I recommend that you don't always trust the text and graphics printed on a tube...


Hey, buddy, it could be a mislabeled 421A. LOL


----------



## wwmhf (Jan 29, 2018)

Hi, Please help me to identify this 5998A tube:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998-SYLVA...218431?hash=item33e0c328bf:g:PPwAAOSwjqVZEy2m

Is this a real 5998A or it is just a 6AS7GA?

Its plates looks like a regular 6AS7GA, but the seller claims it is actually a 5998A which is supposedly to be better than a 6AS7GA.

Thanks

Here some pictures of this tube:


----------



## Monsterzero

On my La Figaro 339 I have the RCAs and Chatham...for my Atticus I prefer the cleaner,detailed and better staging of the Chatam,but im losing quite a bit of bass slam vs. the RCAs...Is the happy medium grabbing a pair of 5998s,and if so what is a fair price for a pair,or is there something else entirely for clean heavy slam+staging+3D imaging?


----------



## attmci

wwmhf said:


> Hi, Please help me to identify this 5998A tube:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998-SYLVA...218431?hash=item33e0c328bf:g:PPwAAOSwjqVZEy2m
> 
> ...


These are real 5998A. Not the TS 5998 everyone is chasing.


----------



## whirlwind

The Tung Sol 5998 will have domino plates...like this.


----------



## wwmhf (Jan 29, 2018)

Attmci and whirlwind,

I fully understand that the tube I am interested in is not Tung Sol 5998, not even close.

My concern is how this 5998A tube is related to the 6AS7GA we all know. Is it just a 6AS7GA? It looks very just like another 6AS7GA to me.

Again, here is the link to the 5998A tube I am talking about:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998-SYLVA...218431?hash=item33e0c328bf:gPwAAOSwjqVZEy2m


----------



## ru4music

wwmhf said:


> Attmci and whirlwind,
> 
> I fully understand that the tube am interested in is not Tung Sol 5998, not even close.
> 
> ...



They should sound very similar (if not the same) in a typical amp application.  The 5998A gives higher operating limits (e.g. plate voltage/ current and amplification gain) but must be provisioned/ designed to take advantage of those factors (e.g. 6as7 to 5998 bias switch.)  The construction of the 6AS7GA and 5998A is very similar as opposed to the 6AS7G and 5998 (domino plate) versions which (IMHO) greatly affects the sound.


----------



## mordy

Is there any difference in sound between Sylvania 5998A and GE 5998A - the construction seems to be a little different.
I seem to remember another brand of 5998A - Gold Aero.
Never bothered to buy these since I was under the impression that they sound like the 6AS7G....


----------



## wwmhf

This is also another related question of mine, i.e., how similar are Sylvania 5998A and GE 5998A? 



mordy said:


> Is there any difference in sound between Sylvania 5998A and GE 5998A - the construction seems to be a little different.


----------



## wwmhf

ru4music said:


> They should sound very similar (if not the same) in a typical amp application.  The 5998A gives higher operating limits (e.g. plate voltage/ current and amplification gain) but must be provisioned/ designed to take advantage of those factors (e.g. 6as7 to 5998 bias switch.)  The construction of the 6AS7GA and 5998A is very similar as opposed to the 6AS7G and 5998 (domino plate) versions which (IMHO) greatly affects the sound.



This requirement on circuit in order for 5998A to perform optimally makes sense to me if this 5998A is really different from 6AS7GA. Hence, a further question is: Can this Sylvania 5998A perform better than 6AS7GA/6080 in amp such as Darkvoice 336SE? 

My understanding is that Darkvoice 336SE is designed for 6AS7G/6AS7GA/6080. Is it designed to be able to take advantage of Sylvania 5998A if Sylvania 5998A has the potential to be better than 6AS7G/6AS7GA/6080?


----------



## Scutey

wwmhf said:


> Hi, Please help me to identify this 5998A tube:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998-SYLVA...218431?hash=item33e0c328bf:g:PPwAAOSwjqVZEy2m
> 
> ...


I've been interested in getting a pair of these too, and from this seller, only thing putting me off was the construction looking very similar to the 6AS7GA. Still not sure.


----------



## attmci

wwmhf said:


> Attmci and whirlwind,
> 
> I fully understand that the tube I am interested in is not Tung Sol 5998, not even close.
> 
> ...


No, they are different. The major difference: 5998A has higher transconductance than 6as7g (15500 vs 7000 umhos).


----------



## attmci

wwmhf said:


> This is also another related question of mine, i.e., how similar are Sylvania 5998A and GE 5998A?



Do you expect a RCA 6080 can replace a Bendix 6080WB? Yup, technically , it can.  But.................


----------



## ru4music (Jan 30, 2018)

wwmhf said:


> This requirement on circuit in order for 5998A to perform optimally makes sense to me if this 5998A is really different from 6AS7GA. Hence, a further question is: Can this Sylvania 5998A perform better than 6AS7GA/6080 in amp such as Darkvoice 336SE?
> 
> My understanding is that Darkvoice 336SE is designed for 6AS7G/6AS7GA/6080. Is it designed to be able to take advantage of Sylvania 5998A if Sylvania 5998A has the potential to be better than 6AS7G/6AS7GA/6080?



No!  Please let me make this clear if there is any misunderstanding... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

But it will perform equally satisfactorily as a 6AS7GA/6080.


----------



## wwmhf

Thanks for the inputs/comments/clarifications.

So for the Darkvoice 336, this Sylvania 5998A will act just like a usual 6AS7GA/6080, maybe a good one. 

This makes me wondering about modifying the Darkvoice 336 for taking advantage of the potential in this Sylvania 5998A. Is this possible?


----------



## dobigstuff (Jan 30, 2018)

wwmhf said:


> This requirement on circuit in order for 5998A to perform optimally makes sense to me if this 5998A is really different from 6AS7GA. Hence, a further question is: Can this Sylvania 5998A perform better than 6AS7GA/6080 in amp such as Darkvoice 336SE?
> 
> My understanding is that Darkvoice 336SE is designed for 6AS7G/6AS7GA/6080. Is it designed to be able to take advantage of Sylvania 5998A if Sylvania 5998A has the potential to be better than 6AS7G/6AS7GA/6080?



wwmhf:

I have used that Sylvania 5998A Tube in my Darkvoice (see below)  It sounds great.  However the Best Power Tube for me is the NOS Western Electric 421 A (Driver is always the NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7


----------



## gibosi (Jan 30, 2018)

wwmhf said:


> Thanks for the inputs/comments/clarifications.
> 
> So for the Darkvoice 336, this Sylvania 5998A will act just like a usual 6AS7GA/6080, maybe a good one.
> 
> This makes me wondering about modifying the Darkvoice 336 for taking advantage of the potential in this Sylvania 5998A. Is this possible?



Of course it is possible. You would simply need to change the bias resistors. But probably it is not a good idea. While a 5998 works very well in a circuit designed for 6AS7, all of your 6AS7, 6080 and similar tubes will likely sound worse in a circuit designed for the 5998....

If you really want to go down this road, the best solution is to design and build two biasing circuits, one for 5998 and one for 6AS7, with a toggle switch.


----------



## wwmhf

dobigstuff said:


> wwmhf:
> I have used that Sylvania 5998A Tube in my Darkvoice (see below)  It sounds great.  However the Best Power Tube for me is the NOS Western Electric 421 A (Driver is always the NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7



Glad to know this Sylvania 5998A sounds good in Darkvoice 336SE.


----------



## wwmhf

gibosi said:


> Of course it is possible. You would simply need to change the bias resistors. But probably it is not a good idea. While a 5998 works very well in a circuit designed for 6AS7, all of your 6AS7, 6080 and similar tubes will likely sound worse in a circuit designed for the 5998....
> 
> If you really want to go down this road, the best solution is to design and build two biasing circuits, one for 5998 and one for 6AS7, with a toggle switch.



Great idea, and this gives me another motivation to clone a Darkvoice 336SE.


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> I seem to remember another brand of 5998A - Gold Aero.


Gold Aero was not a tube manufacturer. Those will be relabeled tubes.


----------



## mordy

Oskari said:


> Gold Aero was not a tube manufacturer. Those will be relabeled tubes.


Do you know who made them? GE? Sylvania?


----------



## Oskari (Feb 5, 2018)

mordy said:


> Do you know who made them? GE? Sylvania?


Those 5998As I've seen photos of, have been GE, I think.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Oh man just scored a strong 1963 D getter Western Electric 421a for $125 on eBay  my first! Psyched to try it in my BH Crack, but at the same time worried it will ruin my Tung Sol 5998's


----------



## mordy

L0rdGwyn said:


> Oh man just scored a strong 1963 D getter Western Electric 421a for $125 on eBay  my first! Psyched to try it in my BH Crack, but at the same time worried it will ruin my Tung Sol 5998's


Hi L0G,

Please try it, curious to hear if there are differences - thanks.


----------



## Scutey

L0rdGwyn said:


> Oh man just scored a strong 1963 D getter Western Electric 421a for $125 on eBay  my first! Psyched to try it in my BH Crack, but at the same time worried it will ruin my Tung Sol 5998's


Congrats, I'm jealous!


----------



## L0rdGwyn

mordy said:


> Hi L0G,
> 
> Please try it, curious to hear if there are differences - thanks.



Will do!  When I get it, I'll post some subjective comparisons with the Tung Sol 5998 here.



Scutey said:


> Congrats, I'm jealous!



Thanks!  Been quietly watching Ebay for a while, waiting for a good deal on one.  Finally paid off.


----------



## Scutey

L0rdGwyn said:


> Will do!  When I get it, I'll post some subjective comparisons with the Tung Sol 5998 here.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!  Been quietly watching Ebay for a while, waiting for a good deal on one.  Finally paid off.


Patience always pays off eventually, it's worked for me,  good things come to those who wait!.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Mar 1, 2018)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Will do!  When I get it, I'll post some subjective comparisons with the Tung Sol 5998 here.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!  Been quietly watching Ebay for a while, waiting for a good deal on one.  Finally paid off.



Here we go.  Will post some impressions after some quality head time.  TBH, I'm hoping the differences between the 421a and 5998 are not huge, otherwise my hoarder mind will require me to get a second as backup


----------



## dobigstuff

L0rdGwyn:

You will love that Western Electric 421A.  See below my combo in my Darkvoice that I use with my HD700's


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Mar 1, 2018)

Loving the 421A so far, it is very detailed, nuanced, great soundstage, more bass refinement than the 5998.

I've made an interesting observation, curious to see if anyone else has had this experience.  I have owned five different Tung Sol 5998's.  I currently own three, sold two others not too long ago.  Of those five, I have noticed one particular 5998 sounds _significantly_ better than the rest.  As I am sitting here comparing it to the 421A, many of the characteristics of this (I'm going to call it) *super* 5998 that make it better than the other two that I still own (as well as the two I sold) are present in the 421A, but in larger quantities.

I had never looked before, but I compared the construction of my super 5998 to the other two, and there is one very noticeable difference: the two rods on either side of the heater filament are a much thicker, copper-colored metal on the super 5998, whereas the same rods on the non-super 5998's are shorter, thinner, and a nickel-colored metal.  Interesting.  Also, it is unrelated to year of construction; the super tube and one other are both manufactured in 1962, the third in 1954.  I am no expert on tube construction/anatomy, I can post pictures if anyone is interested in any of this blabbering.

I'll have to do some more comparisons between the super 5998 and 421A.  I am listening through the Sennheiser HD 660S which has a 150 Ohm impedance, so slight advantage to the 421A given that it has a higher transconductance than the 5998 (18,000 vs 14,000, respectively) and thus will further lower the Crack's output impedance, which should favor using a lower impedance headphone like the 660S.  I'll compare with a higher impedance headphone too to even the playing field, but I doubt the damping factor alone can explain the improved performance; it truly is a step up from the 5998, even my super tube (but the gap is much smaller)


----------



## attmci

L0rdGwyn said:


> Loving the 421A so far, it is very detailed, nuanced, great soundstage, more bass refinement than the 5998.
> 
> I've made an interesting observation, curious to see if anyone else has had this experience.  I have owned five different Tung Sol 5998's.  I currently own three, sold two others not too long ago.  Of those five, I have noticed one particular 5998 sounds _significantly_ better than the rest.  As I am sitting here comparing it to the 421A, many of the characteristics of this (I'm going to call it) *super* 5998 that make it better than the other two that I still own (as well as the two I sold) are present in the 421A, but in larger quantities.
> 
> ...


Have you measured those 5998? 

Moreover, here are some old discussion about real super 5998s:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-263#post-13801283


----------



## L0rdGwyn

attmci said:


> Have you measured those 5998?
> 
> Moreover, here are some old discussion about real super 5998s:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-263#post-13801283



In terms of emittance or THD?  I don't own the equipment to do either LOL but all of the tubes were bought in NOS condition and TV7 tested (according to the sellers I bought from, of course).  I personally have not put enough hours on them for low emittance to be a concern.

Thanks for the link!  I'll check out the discussion.


----------



## attmci

What the heck...

https://www.ebay.com/p/Matched-Pair...-Audio-Amplifiers/1727125232?iid=273081362008


----------



## mordy (Mar 5, 2018)

attmci said:


> What the heck...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/p/Matched-Pair...-Audio-Amplifiers/1727125232?iid=273081362008


If you want info on old guy radiola, check out the internet......

Here is an offering of a 421A from a different seller:
At  least this one looks more authentic, but it is supposed to be just a regular 5998




This Canadian seller has a couple of what looks like TS5998 labeled 6520. They don't measure NOS, but the prices so far are in the reasonable range.
Here is a link to these 5998 offerings:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/pgarelrogerscom/m.html?item=183105292173&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

After clicking on the above link, got to see other items to find the other 5998 offerings.


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> If you want info on old guy radiola, check out the internet......
> http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/171543/some-people-are-certifiably-nuts
> 
> Here is an offering of a 421A from a completely different seller located in Canada:
> ...


----------



## thecrow

mordy said:


> If you want info on old guy radiola, check out the internet......
> 
> Here is an offering of a 421A from a different seller:
> At  least this one looks more authentic, but it is supposed to be just a regular 5998
> ...


And this guy has 100% rating on ebay - f’n ridiculous

Mu blood is starting to simmer


----------



## Scutey

thecrow said:


> And this guy has 100% rating on ebay - f’n ridiculous
> 
> Mu blood is starting to simmer


I saw this on eBay as well, was tempted briefly, then decided something didn't ring true.


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> If you want info on old guy radiola, check out the internet......
> 
> Here is an offering of a 421A from a different seller:
> At  least this one looks more authentic, but it is supposed to be just a regular 5998
> ...



I know the story and had never interested in OGR.

I have enough 5998/6AS7G tubes. You should pick those up.  But re-branded tubes always sell at a discount.


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> I know the story and had never interested in OGR.
> 
> I have enough 5998/6AS7G tubes. You should pick those up.  But re-branded tubes always sell at a discount.


Hi attmci,

I have one pair of TS5998. Missed a rebranded pair for $35 because I did not know what it was... I am keeping on looking - part of the mystique of tubes is to look for bargains, at least for me lol.


----------



## attmci (Mar 18, 2018)

Gm vs mu

Mike McCarty provided some detailed description of Gm vs mu.

When you buy a NOS, NIB, or used tube, always look at the Gm (i.e. a new Monconi spec: 7.5mA/V or 7500 µmhos) which indicates the health of the tube. Dying tube has low Gm, thus low mu.

Enjoy!

Gm vs mu
by Mike McCarty
Most tube testers just check emission. Some of them also check for some sort of gain; often a
"transconductance" is measured. Most of them do *not* measure transconductance or Gm, but
rather tube gain or mu. I've noticed some confusion here and there on the net, so I thought I'd
explain the meanings of mu and Gm, and their relationship. Throughout this message, I use
"voltage" as a synonym for "EMF".
A tube is modeled as a voltage-controlled current source. That is, at any given plate voltage, the
current in the plate (and cathode) is proportional to the voltage on the grid. There are several
things wrong with this model, as with any mathematical model. It's simplified, and not terribly
accurate, but nonetheless it is very useful due in part to its simplicity.
Tubes are, of course, not linear, so exact proportionality is a fiction. But within bounds, this model
gives a reasonable first approximation to what happens. A short enough piece of any smooth
curve looks like a straight-line segment. It turns out that the curves associated with
tubes are "straight enough" over about 2/3 of their reasonable operating conditions for straightline
approximations to be useful there.
So, what are the exact definitions? First, they do not involve DC or static conditions. These are for
small value AC signals, or to put it another way, small modifications to the static bias
conditions. Second, the exact mathematical definitions are in terms of things developed in
calculus courses, called partial derivatives. If you haven't had calculus, don't worry. I'll give
information, which doesn't involve it.
Gm is the ratio between the plate current change and the grid to cathode voltage change with
plate to cathode voltage held constant. If we call Ip the plate current, and Vg the grid voltage,
then
Gm = dIp / dVg
where you may read the "d" as "small change in". Another way to read it is as "The small AC
plate current resulting from a small AC grid voltage, with the plate voltage held constant, or short
circuited for AC" (like by bypassing the tube with a huge capacitor).
If you know calculus, then it means the partial derivative of plate current with respect to grid
voltage. Its unit is that of current divided by voltage, or the mho or Siemens, and it is a sort of
"conductance".
Since this "conductance" is from the input to the output circuits of the tube, and goes "across" the
tube, it is called "transconductance" or "mutual conductance". Since "G" is the symbol
used in electronics for conductance, this explains the use of the symbol "Gm". It is not a real
conductance in any sense of the term.
In the fictional mathematical model, this is a single constant. With a real tube it depends on plate
voltage, plate current, tube temperature, frequency of the signal, mood of the operator, etc.
Now mu is defined similarly, but it is a ratio of voltages
mu = dVp / dVg
This is the AC voltage gain for small signals, being the AC voltage in the plate divided by the AC
voltage on the grid, with the plate current held constant. It has no unit, being a pure number. In
the fictional model, this also is a single fixed constant for any given tube. For the mathematically
inclined, it is the partial derivative of the plate voltage with respect to the grid voltage.
Now, also in the fictional model, there is an effective plate resistance associated with the tube,
usually denoted by Rp. By definition, Rp = dVp / dIp, in other words the AC voltage on the plate
divided by the AC current through the plate. Thus we have that
mu = Gm x Rp
That's why, in an earlier message, I said that Gm and mu are effectively the same. They are
essentially proportional to each other. Well, not exactly of course. Gm is a conductance, and mu
is a pure number. But in the fictional model Rp is *also* a constant (for any given tube, that is), so
there you are.[1]
Now, mu is easier to measure, at least approximately, so that is what "transconductance testers"
usually measure. A small AC voltage is placed on the grid of an otherwise appropriately
biased tube, and the AC voltage on the plate is displayed, perhaps divided by the (fixed) AC grid
voltage, giving an approximation to mu.
I have with me some data sheets for various tubes, which include the parameters for the fictional
models, portions of which I reproduce here.
I give Gm in umhos, Rp in K ohms. The values of Gm, Rp, and mu are from the data sheets,
while I compute Gm x Rp myself. These are all twin triodes, and the second element of the tube
is indicated with an asterisk ("*") after it.
Tube Gm Rp mu Gm x Rp
---- -- -- -- -------
12AX7 1250 80 100 100
12AX7* 1600 62.5 100 100
12AT7 4000 15 60 60
12AT7* 5500 10.9 60 59.95
12AU7A 3100 6.25 19.5 19.375
12AU7A* 2200 7.7 17 16.94
Actually, the data sheets simply divide mu by Gm to get Rp, and round off to a couple of figures.
[1] The mathematically adept will note that the Gm and mu definitions require different static
conditions on the other circuit parameters, and hence it cannot be the case that mu = Gm x Rp.
But this whole paper is "to first order".
Mike McCarty, VRPS member.


----------



## zeroduke (Apr 2, 2018)

Has anyone saw one of these Tung-sol 421A before?   I didn't know of their existence...  and still have doubt about it.
Offered at eBay by "bangybangtubes", which seems to be a new name from OldGuyRadiola!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MEGA-RARE-NOS-PAIR-421-A-TUNGSOL-421A-VINTAGE-POWER-TUBES-5998-6080WB-7236-USA/273081362008?


----------



## thecrow

zeroduke said:


> Has anyone saw one of these Tung-sol 421A before?   I didn't know of their existence...  and still have doubt about it.
> Offered at eBay by "bangybangtubes", which seems to be a new name from OldGuyRadiola!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MEGA-RARE-NOS-PAIR-421-A-TUNGSOL-421A-VINTAGE-POWER-TUBES-5998-6080WB-7236-USA/273081362008?


Oldguyradiola?! Say no more. 

Dodgy as f....


----------



## dobigstuff

zeroduke said:


> Has anyone saw one of these Tung-sol 421A before?


zeroduke:

This is the only NOS 421A I would get (if you can find them)  See Below:


----------



## attmci (Apr 3, 2018)

zeroduke said:


> Has anyone saw one of these Tung-sol 421A before?   I didn't know of their existence...  and still have doubt about it.
> Offered at eBay by "bangybangtubes", which seems to be a new name from OldGuyRadiola!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MEGA-RARE-NOS-PAIR-421-A-TUNGSOL-421A-VINTAGE-POWER-TUBES-5998-6080WB-7236-USA/273081362008?


No, they are fake.

See the discussion a couple of pages before.


----------



## attmci

dobigstuff said:


> zeroduke:
> 
> This is the only NOS 421A I would get (if you can find them)  See Below:



Agreed. The NIB can be found very cheap. Sometimes.


----------



## mordy

It is interesting to note that UT suggested that you could use the Cetron 6336B instead of the 5998 at a much lower price, _but only if your amp can handle 5A tubes._
The 6336 is basically a double 5998.


----------



## michaelgjw

need help identifying this tube. no brand on the band, and double halo getter on the top. any input is appreciated. thanks.


----------



## gibosi

michaelgjw said:


> need help identifying this tube. no brand on the band, and double halo getter on the top. any input is appreciated. thanks.



Sylvania.


----------



## michaelgjw

gibosi said:


> Sylvania.



Thanks for the info.


----------



## Quadfather

My amp is a Bottlehead Crack with the Speedball upgrade.  I am running an RCA 6080 and an RCA 12AU7A with HD650s. Sounds "okay." Just ordered Tung Sol 5998 and Mullard CV4003. I hope this gives me the improvement I'm looking for.


----------



## abvolt

The tubes you ordered will make a world of difference in sq..enjoy


----------



## Quadfather

abvolt said:


> The tubes you ordered will make a world of difference in sq..enjoy



I am so excited.  Toyed with selling the amp, but decided to try better tubes.  This hobby gets my as excited as a kid on Christmas morning!!!


----------



## abvolt

The 5998's never come out of my wa22, when I owned a wa7/tp the same held true with the mullard cv4003's  simply the best sounding..


----------



## LouisArmstrong

Nice. Really nice.


----------



## Quadfather

abvolt said:


> The 5998's never come out of my wa22, when I owned a wa7/tp the same held true with the mullard cv4003's  simply the best sounding..



They have not arrived yet in the mail, but I am so stoked!


----------



## abvolt

Be sure and let us know how well you enjoy them..


----------



## Quadfather

I have not yet received the Tung Sol 5998. However, I received the Mullard CV4003. Currently I am running it with an RCA 6080 power tube. I really love the fact that this tube has made the treble and cymbals sound much more realistic and clear. That is the first thing I notice.


----------



## abvolt

Another very nice sounding 6080 is the Mullard, check the langrex.co.uk site, their under 40. smoothest of the 6080's..


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Aug 3, 2018)

Anyone have a ballpark figure of what a pair or single of Tung sol 5998, or TS7236 are roughly worth? Reading through this thread the prices are just going up and up... so far I’ve found 5998 pairs for between 255 and 400.

Does anyone have reputable Australian sellers? The shipping from US and UK is death


----------



## volly

@tintinsnowydog - I hear ya mate, it's almost off-putting, I'm currently talking to a guy in Perth who seems to a few 6sn7 but I've also asked him about 6as7 and equivalent. If you have no luck with the Tung Sol 5998 or 6080, I'd try the Svetlana 6n13s, if that suits your purpose.


----------



## Reddart67 (Aug 3, 2018)

There’s a bunch of 7236’s on ebag now for ~$30-40 US. Not counting shipping.


----------



## attmci

tintinsnowydog said:


> Anyone have a ballpark figure of what a pair or single of Tung sol 5998, or TS7236 are roughly worth? Reading through this thread the prices are just going up and up... so far I’ve found 5998 pairs for between 255 and 400.
> 
> Does anyone have reputable Australian sellers? The shipping from US and UK is death


https://www.ebay.com/itm/292650060618


----------



## mordy

Hi tt,
Recently a seller in France sold a bunch of 5998 tubes for around $60 each:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-tubes-JA...+5998&LH_Complete=1&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1





Do you see the dimpled or domino plate on the middle tube? This makes these tubes very easy to spot. Any TS, IBM,Chatham or Dumont tube that looks like this should be a 5998. Sometimes they are labeled 6520 or 39999(?) and sometimes a seller may list them as 6AS7.
If your amp can handle 5A  tubes (make sure!), the Cetron 6336B is said to be a double 5998, and it sounds very good. The Cetrons can be found for very reasonable prices.
As a rule, patience pays off, and you should be able to find the 5998 at a more palatable price, but it may take time. You can save your search on eBay, and they will email you when a listing comes up, or better yet, check daily.


----------



## UntilThen

tintinsnowydog said:


> Anyone have a ballpark figure of what a pair or single of Tung sol 5998, or TS7236 are roughly worth? Reading through this thread the prices are just going up and up... so far I’ve found 5998 pairs for between 255 and 400.
> 
> Does anyone have reputable Australian sellers? The shipping from US and UK is death



5998 will just get more and more expensive. Good ones are hard to come by and will cost. I have 4 in pristine condition and will be selling them when I get my DNA Stratus.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Aug 3, 2018)

Sorry for the wall of text, thanks everyone for the help, info on tubes is really hard to come by and having caught up by reading through the whole thread i've already learnt a lot, but much more still to go!



volly said:


> @tintinsnowydog - I hear ya mate, it's almost off-putting, I'm currently talking to a guy in Perth who seems to a few 6sn7 but I've also asked him about 6as7 and equivalent. If you have no luck with the Tung Sol 5998 or 6080, I'd try the Svetlana 6n13s, if that suits your purpose.



Damn, shoot me a pm if you're happy to share his contact details? 



Reddart67 said:


> There’s a bunch of 7236’s on ebag now for ~$30-40 US. Not counting shipping.





attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/292650060618



yeah I've been eyeing those, is it worth the risk for untested though? If i've learnt correctly those are from '64? vacuumtubes.net has them for 50 each tested so might jump on those, ebay shipping on the 7236 is almost the price of the tube itself :/



mordy said:


> Hi tt,
> Recently a seller in France sold a bunch of 5998 tubes for around $60 each:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-tubes-JAN-CTL-5998-Tung-Sol-NOS-421A-6AS7G-6336-6528-6080/163151660525?epid=168123127&hash=item25fc98c5ed:g:FlEAAOSwsiZbTJiO&_sacat=183077&_nkw=tung+sol+5998&LH_Complete=1&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1
> 
> ...



Thanks for the heads up on the 6336B; i'm planning on using them in my la figaro 339, any idea if that can take the 5A? Will message the amp maker as well.

60$ for those sound too good to be true! Will keep my eyes peeled for dominoes. So 6520=5998 for all brands/labels? Chatham 2399 is the only other 5998 equivalent i figured out from reading this thread, (excluding WE421A i'll just pretend that doesn't exist for now to protect my wallet and my sanity) are there any more i've missed?



UntilThen said:


> 5998 will just get more and more expensive. Good ones are hard to come by and will cost. I have 4 in pristine condition and will be selling them when I get my DNA Stratus.



!! i'll be waiting for that listing mate


----------



## abvolt

Wow what a deal on those @mordy I already have 6 pair never got them that cheap, my favorite power tube..enjoy all


----------



## Reddart67

I have a question about 6336/6528 tubes. 
I know they need about twice the heater current as 6080/6as7 etc., but they also have about 2x the plate dissipation. If you wanted to get the most out of these tubes (in an OTL amp) should you adjust the cathode resistors to get 2x the current of a 6080?


----------



## thecrow

tintinsnowydog said:


> Sorry for the wall of text, thanks everyone for the help, info on tubes is really hard to come by and having caught up by reading through the whole thread i've already learnt a lot, but much more still to go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Last time i looked for ts 5998 (about 12-18 months ago) if you wer patient you could get a decent/ok pair for $150 usd or a very good pair for $250. 

I would look for a buyer with a return policy in case the tubes had noise coming out of them or at least a buyer with a loooong excellent history. 

Theres a lot if BS that some buyer’s state. Eg these are NOS or never used or 100% or they try to sell off russian tubes as these.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

thecrow said:


> Last time i looked for ts 5998 (about 12-18 months ago) if you wer patient you could get a decent/ok pair for $150 usd or a very good pair for $250.
> 
> I would look for a buyer with a return policy in case the tubes had noise coming out of them or at least a buyer with a loooong excellent history.
> 
> Theres a lot if BS that some buyer’s state. Eg these are NOS or never used or 100% or they try to sell off russian tubes as these.



Thanks for that info. Brent Jessee has them at $400 for a matched NOS set, http://www.nostubestore.com/ has them for $255 but idk if that site is reputable. Will keep looking on ebay. 

Anyone know how much the GEC 6AS7G would fetch now? And are there sonic differences between the brown and black base? Seems that is the dream tube but virtually unobtainable.


----------



## thecrow (Aug 4, 2018)

[


tintinsnowydog said:


> Thanks for that info. Brent Jessee has them at $400 for a matched NOS set, http://www.nostubestore.com/ has them for $255 but idk if that site is reputable. Will keep looking on ebay.
> 
> Anyone know how much the GEC 6AS7G would fetch now? And are there sonic differences between the brown and black base? Seems that is the dream tube but virtually unobtainable.


gec 6as7g from a reputable tube store seller would be about $500/600usd a pair. There is a seller that sells these on ebay listed as yiitry (or something like that) and that is a bonafide tube store. I can’t remrmber there “real nane”. Maybe “vaccumtubes.net” from memory. Don’t hold me to that

Gec 6as7g are the best tubes going around though - for detail and extension

Brown base. Don’t worry if round or straight. Just brown

I have 3 pairs (not for sale) that are not pristine but working well and i ended up paying between $200-$250 per pair.
They were not nos. Two of the tubes have developed a slight hum that you can hear when music is not playing, I don’t expect any to last 10000 hours but i have been mire than happy as they have been good over the last few years.

I use these power tubes 95% of the time. Essentially “set and forget” for me

As opposed to ts 5998c bendic 6080wb and mullard 6080 i own.


You can also try emailing valvetubes.com for tube availability. Some members here have bought some tubes from them and they seem to be good on their service if there are tube issues. Prices are ok for a bona fide retailer. Not cheap but not too expensive relatively speaking


----------



## whirlwind

tintinsnowydog said:


> Thanks for that info. Brent Jessee has them at $400 for a matched NOS set, http://www.nostubestore.com/ has them for $255 but idk if that site is reputable. Will keep looking on ebay.
> 
> Anyone know how much the GEC 6AS7G would fetch now? And are there sonic differences between the brown and black base? Seems that is the dream tube but virtually unobtainable.




The 5998 & GEC 6AS7G are both pretty expensive, the GEC more so.
They are expensive, especially if you get some that are not quiet...the 5998 can be finicky
I would totally trust UT if he sells his 5998 tubes...you will be getting good tubes  

I would not put those 6336a/B tubes in your amp unless you know for sure about the power supply...


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Aug 4, 2018)

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=538221226935&ns=1&abbucket=15#detail

Anyone able to determine from the pictures if these are legit gec 6as7g? Seems they are out of stock but just curious to learn, they look very different from all the other gec pictures i've seen thus far (the top of the tube is chrome/hazy versus clear glass?) ... could it be a dodgy chinese seller? thanks


----------



## attmci

tintinsnowydog said:


> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=538221226935&ns=1&abbucket=15#detail
> 
> Anyone able to determine from the pictures if these are legit gec 6as7g? Seems they are out of stock but just curious to learn, they look very different from all the other gec pictures i've seen thus far (the top of the tube is chrome/hazy versus clear glass?) ... could it be a dodgy chinese seller? thanks



Don't buy those.Too many fakes on TaoBao.

If you can get clear-top 5998, it's close to a WE421.


----------



## attmci

whirlwind said:


> The 5998 & GEC 6AS7G are both pretty expensive, the GEC more so.
> They are expensive, especially if you get some that are not quiet...the 5998 can be finicky
> I would totally trust UT if he sells his 5998 tubes...you will be getting good tubes
> 
> I would not put those 6336a/B tubes in your amp unless you know for sure about the power supply...



I always curious about your KTE Holo Spring Level 3 DAC.  Have you posted something about it b4? Thx!


----------



## whirlwind

tintinsnowydog said:


> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=538221226935&ns=1&abbucket=15#detail
> 
> Anyone able to determine from the pictures if these are legit gec 6as7g? Seems they are out of stock but just curious to learn, they look very different from all the other gec pictures i've seen thus far (the top of the tube is chrome/hazy versus clear glass?) ... could it be a dodgy chinese seller? thanks



Those are not GEC 6AS7G tubes....the construction should be like this....sorry the photo is not very good, but you can still see that those tubes you posted are not legit.

 









attmci said:


> I always curious about your KTE Holo Spring Level 3 DAC.  Have you posted something about it b4? Thx!



I probably have posted before, but I am sure it was way back when I first got it.
I have not even looked at dac's since I got it to be honest because I feel to get better I will need to spend a lot more.
I just set mine on NOS mode and forget about it....it is the best upgrade that I have done to date to my system.


----------



## Reddart67

tintinsnowydog said:


> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=538221226935&ns=1&abbucket=15#detail
> 
> Anyone able to determine from the pictures if these are legit gec 6as7g? Seems they are out of stock but just curious to learn, they look very different from all the other gec pictures i've seen thus far (the top of the tube is chrome/hazy versus clear glass?) ... could it be a dodgy chinese seller? thanks


They look like RCA’s.


----------



## abvolt

they do look like rca's funny..


----------



## mordy

No way these are GEC 6AS7/A1834. The price is also a giveway - 1080 Chinese yuan = $158


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> The 5998 & GEC 6AS7G are both pretty expensive, the GEC more so.
> They are expensive, especially if you get some that are not quiet...the 5998 can be finicky
> I would totally trust UT if he sells his 5998 tubes...you will be getting good tubes
> 
> I would not put those 6336a/B tubes in your amp unless you know for sure about the power supply...



Thanks for the vote of confidence WW.


----------



## UntilThen

thecrow said:


> [
> 
> gec 6as7g from a reputable tube store seller would be about $500/600usd a pair. There is a seller that sells these on ebay listed as yiitry (or something like that) and that is a bonafide tube store. I can’t remrmber there “real nane”. Maybe “vaccumtubes.net” from memory. Don’t hold me to that
> 
> ...



I have probably the best pair of GEC 6as7g brown base curve base that has less than 50 hours of usage. Bought from Stravos with original boxes. Similarly I have a pair of GEC 6080 in as mint condition.

Six brand new Svetlana 6h13c. A pair of Bendix 6080wb. Mullard 6080. RCA 6as7g.

I will be selling it all when I move to 2A3 tubes.


----------



## thecrow (Aug 5, 2018)

UntilThen said:


> I have probably the best pair of GEC 6as7g brown base curve base that has less than 50 hours of usage. Bought from Stravos with original boxes. Similarly I have a pair of GEC 6080 in as mint condition.
> 
> Six brand new Svetlana 6h13c. A pair of Bendix 6080wb. Mullard 6080. RCA 6as7g.
> 
> I will be selling it all when I move to 2A3 tubes.


Put me down as a seriously interested party for the gec6as7g pair

Edit: please


----------



## tintinsnowydog

UntilThen said:


> I have probably the best pair of GEC 6as7g brown base curve base that has less than 50 hours of usage. Bought from Stravos with original boxes. Similarly I have a pair of GEC 6080 in as mint condition.
> 
> Six brand new Svetlana 6h13c. A pair of Bendix 6080wb. Mullard 6080. RCA 6as7g.
> 
> I will be selling it all when I move to 2A3 tubes.



Hope i can catch those gec's when you do sell


----------



## tintinsnowydog

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/253796817849?ViewItem=&item=253796817849

Anyone able to confirm these are legit? One of the few options that doesn't kill me on shipping


----------



## thecrow (Aug 6, 2018)

tintinsnowydog said:


> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/253796817849?ViewItem=&item=253796817849
> 
> Anyone able to confirm these are legit? One of the few options that doesn't kill me on shipping


They look legit.

Price ia ok. About $250 usd delivered.
Seller has good history.
Returns accepted in 14 days.

Just put a lower price in and see how you go. Maybe try about 25% off. He has two pairs there


----------



## abvolt

They are definitely 5998's really nice power tubes..enjoy


----------



## thecrow

tintinsnowydog said:


> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/253796817849?ViewItem=&item=253796817849
> 
> Anyone able to confirm these are legit? One of the few options that doesn't kill me on shipping


You didn’t grab them or offer a price?


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Aug 8, 2018)

thecrow said:


> You didn’t grab them or offer a price?



Grabbed a pair, he’s relisted it, seems he has multiple pairs (at least 4 pairs). Seller automatically declined any lower bids. Order has shipped, will confirm their quality when I get them! 

Saw a single NOS GEC6as7g up throughout last few days, untested, for 150 EUR, seems it has been sold since, would that have been a fair price?


----------



## thecrow

tintinsnowydog said:


> Grabbed a pair, he’s relisted it, seems he has multiple pairs (at least 4 pairs). Seller automatically declined any lower bids. Order has shipped, will confirm their quality when I get them!
> 
> Saw a single NOS GEC6as7g up throughout last few days, untested, for 150 EUR, seems it has been sold since, would that have been a fair price?


Cool. Let us know how you find them. 

Don't be shy in returning them if there’s humming or sounds going on like “ping” that won’t go away. 

Can i ask if she/he dropped the price for you?


----------



## tintinsnowydog

thecrow said:


> Cool. Let us know how you find them.
> 
> Don't be shy in returning them if there’s humming or sounds going on like “ping” that won’t go away.
> 
> Can i ask if she/he dropped the price for you?



Nope, asked about it and they declined a discount, unless I payed outside of eBay parameters which I declined. They were ok with returns though so will test them out thourougly. Are 5998s very prone to microphonics or humming?


----------



## thecrow

tintinsnowydog said:


> Nope, asked about it and they declined a discount, unless I payed outside of eBay parameters which I declined. They were ok with returns though so will test them out thourougly. Are 5998s very prone to microphonics or humming?


I had a pair or two that i sent back a long time ago (other sellers)


----------



## abvolt

That price is not all too high for a pair of the mighty 5998's if you've not heard them you're in for a treat their sq is very nice..enjoy


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Been doing quite a bit more research, have ordered some RCA 6AS7G's and TS7236 and they're on their way. 

what do we think of this? https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Valve-E...873496?hash=item1cb5a99298:g:lTQAAOSwPAtbcA9z
what's the slightly brown discolouration above the brown base, it's not the lighting surely? 

Another question, CV2984; is this a code reserved only for GEC tubes? I've seen GEC 6080's with this label, but also some being listed as Mullards? From my reading they both had factories in similar areas in UK, any chance that some Mullard 6080s could be rebranded GEC's or vice versa?


----------



## rusnak666

Hi to all, i am new in tube amplifiers, i am using my 336se with 6AS7G (Svetlana 6H13C) and CV181-Z Treasure, im planning to change the Svetlana 6H13C for Telefunken 6080 tube? Is this a upgrade or just sidegrade? What would be the differences in sound? Thanks


----------



## volly

@rusnak666 - Hi there, I have those tubes, and I do like the combo but I usually just roll out the Treasure for a 6H8C as I find it has better synergy for what I listen too. I haven't yet heard the 6080's but I hear they are a decent tube. Seems rolling tubes is just a side-grade imho when you're trekking through the same path others here and abroad have traveled. By all means chase after the tubes you're wanting to try but I think you'll find tubes are just different flavors.

I've recently got a Tung Sol 6SN7gtb and it's a great tube, most importantly it's silent and in great condition, compared to the treaure...meh...very similar, sweet mids, probably a bit more air between the notes, slightly more extended in the upper registries maybe than the Treasure?! I got it cheaper than the treasure, so I guess that's a bonus!

I'll be receiving some RCA 6AS7g's soon, so I'll get to see how it fairs with the Svetlana.

So the question is - What is your flavor? What music do you like to listen to?


----------



## Curlycat

@rusnak666 - The Mullard 6080 and RCA6080WA are good tubes, the Mullard having the most balanced sound. However, I find that synergy between the power and preamp tube matters a great deal as well. Mix and match and see what you like. As Volly rightfully said, it depends a lot on your taste. 

Combinations that I like are RCA 6SN7GT Smoked Glass or the Sylvania 6SN7GT Chrome Dome with the Mullard 6080.


----------



## gibosi

tintinsnowydog said:


> Been doing quite a bit more research, have ordered some RCA 6AS7G's and TS7236 and they're on their way.
> 
> what do we think of this? https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Valve-E...873496?hash=item1cb5a99298:g:lTQAAOSwPAtbcA9z
> what's the slightly brown discolouration above the brown base, it's not the lighting surely?
> ...



If I understand you correctly, the discoloration you are seeing is the getter splash, which is normal in a tube with getters located below the bottom mica.

CV2984 is the British military designation for the 6080. And therefore, any 6080 procured for the British military might bear that designation. Both GEC and Mullard manufactured the 6080 so it is not likely that you will find Mullard 6080s rebranded as GEC, or vice versa. But of course it is possible.

As the Mullard and GEC have different internal construction, a close inspection will reveal the original manufacturer. Further, Mullard etched their production code on all their tubes, and if it is visible, that too will reveal the original manufacturer.


----------



## gibosi

rusnak666 said:


> Hi to all, i am new in tube amplifiers, i am using my 336se with 6AS7G (Svetlana 6H13C) and CV181-Z Treasure, im planning to change the Svetlana 6H13C for Telefunken 6080 tube? Is this a upgrade or just sidegrade? What would be the differences in sound? Thanks



In my experience, the Telefunken has a lot of air and treble emphasis and the midrange is rather thin. So it is not an upgrade, just a different sound.


----------



## rusnak666

gibosi said:


> In my experience, the Telefunken has a lot of air and treble emphasis and the midrange is rather thin. So it is not an upgrade, just a different sound.


Im searching for bigest soundstage and deepest sub-bass, wath do you think, would be better telefunken 6080 or Svetlana 6H13C? What other tube would match my desires? Thanks


----------



## gibosi

rusnak666 said:


> Im searching for bigest soundstage and deepest sub-bass, wath do you think, would be better telefunken 6080 or Svetlana 6H13C? What other tube would match my desires? Thanks



I am primarily a tone guy and don't pay much attention to the size of the sound stage or how deep the sub-base goes... That said, personally, I would take the Svetlana over the Telefunken any day. But perhaps others with more similar tastes in sound can provide you with specific recommendations.


----------



## mordy

rusnak666 said:


> Im searching for bigest soundstage and deepest sub-bass, wath do you think, would be better telefunken 6080 or Svetlana 6H13C? What other tube would match my desires? Thanks


Hi r666,
I would not bother with the TFK 6080 - never read any rave reviews about it.
There is another problem - not all tubes sound the same in different amps. It is a safe bet that one of a select group of power tubes will please, but as said, a lot depends on synergy with driver tubes as well.
In general, some of the best power tubes are the GEC 6AS7, the GEC 6080 (my personal favorite in the Feliks Euforia) and the Bendix 6080WB, but all of these are very pricey.
Less expensive good alternatives are the Svetlana 6H13C (has a couple different designations), the RCA 6AS7G and the RCA 6080; the latter can be found very inexpensive. Then there are the 6AS7GA (any brand) which also can sound very good with the right pairing.
A lot of people like the Tung Sol 5998, the Chatham/Tung Sol 6AS7 and the Mullard 6080, but they did not work for me in my Feliks Audio amps.
Another great power tube is the Cetron 6336B, but it may fry your amp if it can't handle 5A.
And the soundstage and sub bass are a function of the driver tubes as well.


----------



## rusnak666

Thanks all for the tips, for driver i am using Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z. Mordy waht do you think about this tube, is it any good? Any power tube suggestion with this for good synergy? I am willing to spend about 100EUR for the power tube... Thanks


----------



## dobigstuff

rusnak666 said:


> Im searching for bigest soundstage and deepest sub-bass





 
rusnak666:

This combo has great Bass, Mids and smooth highs.


----------



## dobigstuff

rusnak666:

For the very Deepest bass and Power see below.  This is what I have settled on.



 
The 6SN7 is always a NOS USA Tung-Sol.  By the way, that Western Electric 421A was New in the Box.  Hard to find.


----------



## Scutey

@rusnak666, I have quite a few bassy tubes in both input and output, and although I never tried this combo in my 336, I think this would give you fantastic sub bass, and good soundstage, Tung Sol 5998 for power and Ken Rad 6C8G (via an adapter), this combo gives me fantastic sub bass in my Feliks Elise.


----------



## rusnak666

Have not found 421A but i found TUNG-SOL JAN 5998, at wooaudio they sell 1 pc for 220 dollars and on nostubestore they have TUNG-SOL JAN 5998 Top and Side O-getter Black Plates for 95 dollars (the picture). Are these any good? Thanks


----------



## tintinsnowydog

gibosi said:


> If I understand you correctly, the discoloration you are seeing is the getter splash, which is normal in a tube with getters located below the bottom mica.
> 
> CV2984 is the British military designation for the 6080. And therefore, any 6080 procured for the British military might bear that designation. Both GEC and Mullard manufactured the 6080 so it is not likely that you will find Mullard 6080s rebranded as GEC, or vice versa. But of course it is possible.
> 
> As the Mullard and GEC have different internal construction, a close inspection will reveal the original manufacturer. Further, Mullard etched their production code on all their tubes, and if it is visible, that too will reveal the original manufacturer.



Thanks for that! From what I’ve seen in pictures, the Mullard bottom mica plate is round and the GEC is like a gear? What other clear construction differences are there?


----------



## mordy (Aug 12, 2018)

rusnak666 said:


> Thanks all for the tips, for driver i am using Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z. Mordy waht do you think about this tube, is it any good? Any power tube suggestion with this for good synergy? I am willing to spend about 100EUR for the power tube... Thanks





rusnak666 said:


> Thanks all for the tips, for driver i am using Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z. Mordy waht do you think about this tube, is it any good? Any power tube suggestion with this for good synergy? I am willing to spend about 100EUR for the power tube... Thanks







rusnak666 said:


> Thanks all for the tips, for driver i am using Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z. Mordy waht do you think about this tube, is it any good? Any power tube suggestion with this for good synergy? I am willing to spend about 100EUR for the power tube... Thanks


Hi r666,
I don't have any experience with the Chinese tubes so cannot offer an opinion. What bothers me is that they have so many different price points and different packaging of the same type of tube.
One of my sons once had a summer job in a vodka distillery. There were eight different labels and eight different price points; all bottles had different and more fancy packaging, but the vodka was the same......


































As an example of pricing, the identical Classic Grade Psvane CV181-T Mark II fetches between $75 and $126 shipped for one tube.
Caveat Emptor!


----------



## thecrow

rusnak666 said:


> Have not found 421A but i found TUNG-SOL JAN 5998, at wooaudio they sell 1 pc for 220 dollars and on nostubestore they have TUNG-SOL JAN 5998 Top and Side O-getter Black Plates for 95 dollars (the picture). Are these any good? Thanks


What picture are you referring to?


----------



## gibosi

tintinsnowydog said:


> Thanks for that! From what I’ve seen in pictures, the Mullard bottom mica plate is round and the GEC is like a gear? What other clear construction differences are there?



The GEC on the left was manufactured in 1961 and the Mullard on the right, 1966. The Mullard has copper grid posts, whereas, the GEC has steel. And as you note, the bottom mica on the GEC has ten teeth, whereas, the bottom mica on the Mullard is round.  And also, the construction above the top two mica is quite different.



The same GEC on the left, but an earlier Mullard, from 1957, on the right. The older Mullard has sheet metal shields between the top two mica, much like the RCA. And again, the Mullard has copper grid posts. However, on the older Mullard, the bottom mica has 12 teeth, equally spaced.



Good luck in your search!


----------



## tintinsnowydog

gibosi said:


> The GEC on the left was manufactured in 1961 and the Mullard on the right, 1966. The Mullard has copper grid posts, whereas, the GEC has steel. And as you note, the bottom mica on the GEC has ten teeth, whereas, the bottom mica on the Mullard is round.  And also, the construction above the top two mica is quite different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for the detailed explanation, tube history is so interesting! 

Yet another question for all, what is the difference between 6080WA/B/C? For example, I've seen some Raytheon 6080WC that look almost identical to the Bendix 6080WB (that everyone raves about), what are the differences between these 2tubes?


----------



## abvolt

I'd also agree with the others the mullard 6080's are great sounding their a bit hard to find nowadays and some people ask way too much $$ for them a good alternative is the ts 7236 which sound very nice also it has a higher mu or gain and right now they can be had at a good price..enjoy


----------



## rusnak666 (Aug 12, 2018)

thecrow said:


> What picture are you referring to?













Is this one OK? Thanks


----------



## thecrow (Aug 13, 2018)

rusnak666 said:


> Is this one OK? Thanks


If the readings are good then that tube looks good. 

From recent posts from various members here you should be able to find a decent pair for $150-$200 and a really good pair for $200-250 with just little bit of patience


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Managed to grab a single lightly used gec 6as7g straight brown base (seller tested 95%) for 200$ AUD. Should I expect to pay more or less than that for another one that’s NOS to complete the pair?


----------



## Scutey

tintinsnowydog said:


> Managed to grab a single lightly used gec 6as7g straight brown base (seller tested 95%) for 200$ AUD. Should I expect to pay more or less than that for another one that’s NOS to complete the pair?


That seems like a reasonable price, I  would imagine a NOS one would cost about 20/25% more, depending on the seller.


----------



## thecrow

tintinsnowydog said:


> Managed to grab a single lightly used gec 6as7g straight brown base (seller tested 95%) for 200$ AUD. Should I expect to pay more or less than that for another one that’s NOS to complete the pair?


If you’re patient (and a little lucky) the same. If you’re not then twice as much ($300 usd)


----------



## Scutey (Aug 14, 2018)

I know that the GEC is considered a holy grail tube but for me the 5998 is hard to beat,  and for less money, just managed to get a pristine NOS pair for less than $130 usd.


----------



## UntilThen

I have both 5998 and GEC 6as7g. Both pairs bought brand new NOS unused. 

I happen to like both but the price difference is great. Paid USD$239 for the pair of 5998 about 2 years ago. Paid USD$500 for the pair of GEC 6as7g about a year ago.

Good tubes are like fine wine. You treasure it more as time goes by.

Also have a pair of Bendix 6080wb. Another of my fav.

The pair of GEC 6080 makes up the quartet of my fav power tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

I don’t use these tubes much now though because I am constantly using 6 x 6bx7gt in my Glenn Super 9 OTL amp.

On certain occasions though, I will roll the above tubes just to enjoy it.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Scutey said:


> I know that the GEC is considered a holy grail tube but for me the 5998 is hard to beat,  and for less money, just managed to get a pristine NOS pair for less than $130 usd.



Mind sharing where you got it from?


----------



## Scutey

Sure, I've just checked, can't see any at the mo, he did have a few pairs for sale a couple weeks ago, but it might be worth, either contacting, or keeping an eye out just in case he does  sell some more.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/fragjanzuerst-askjanfirst?_trksid=p2047675.l2559 

These are the pair I got,


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Scutey said:


> Sure, I've just checked, can't see any at the mo, he did have a few pairs for sale a couple weeks ago, but it might be worth, either contacting, or keeping an eye out just in case he does  sell some more.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/fragjanzuerst-askjanfirst?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
> 
> These are the pair I got,



I actually ordered a pair from him recently as well! Ended up paying a bit more than you did, and it is still being shipped. Good to know that mine are likely to be as pristine as yours, they look really beautiful


----------



## Scutey

tintinsnowydog said:


> I actually ordered a pair from him recently as well! Ended up paying a bit more than you did, and it is still being shipped. Good to know that mine are likely to be as pristine as yours, they look really beautiful


I think I was just very lucky, never bought from this guy before but he seems like a very good seller, even had full print outs of tests done on both tubes, as I said both tubes are pristine and dead silent in use, sounded wonderfully straight out of the box, if you've not heard these before you are in for a treat, enjoy!.


----------



## rusnak666

Hi, i am about to place order for this tube, its TUNG-SOL JAN 5998 Top and Side O-getter Black Plates






price is 110 dollars, is this tube gonna be better than my WINGED "C" 6H13C / 6AS7G for that i gave 30 dollars? Thank You


----------



## Scutey

The TS 5998 is far superior to the 6H13C in just about every way, it's musical, detailed, great weight and tonal balance, my favourite power tube.


----------



## billerb1

Once I went with the GEC 6AS7G’s on my Woo WA2 I’ve never looked back.


----------



## abvolt

Scutey said:


> Sure, I've just checked, can't see any at the mo, he did have a few pairs for sale a couple weeks ago, but it might be worth, either contacting, or keeping an eye out just in case he does  sell some more.
> 
> These are the pair I got,



Wow you got a deal on those..


----------



## thecrow

billerb1 said:


> Once I went with the GEC 6AS7G’s on my Woo WA2 I’ve never looked back.


+1
Set and (more or less) forget - well 90% of the time


----------



## billerb1

GEC 6AS7G - music in it's pure state.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Anyone used raytheon 6080WC's before? Seller sent me some pictures. Their construction looks exactly like bendix 6080WB; What is the difference, especially between the A/B/C 6080? Would this 6080WC be much different from 6080WB, if so how?


----------



## tintinsnowydog

tintinsnowydog said:


> Anyone used raytheon 6080WC's before? Seller sent me some pictures. Their construction looks exactly like bendix 6080WB; What is the difference, especially between the A/B/C 6080? Would this 6080WC be much different from 6080WB, if so how?


----------



## mordy (Aug 15, 2018)

tintinsnowydog said:


>


Here is a picture of the Bendix 6080WB:




The tubes you picture look the same. I have never come across Bendix type 6080 tubes other than WB. WC should just be a minor internal modification that should not make any difference using the tube.


----------



## Scutey

abvolt said:


> Wow you got a deal on those..


I certainly did!, nearly fell off my chair when I saw them!, think I was just very lucky, right  place, right time, although I had been looking everyday for the last 8 months or so, I think if you are patient, and look everyday, there are still bargains out there to be had!.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Aug 15, 2018)

mordy said:


> Here is a picture of the Bendix 6080WB:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is there any possibility the Raytheon 6080WC is a mislabeled tube? It really is quite strange, the construction seems identical to Bendix

https://www.bangybang.com/collectio...080-5998-premium-power-tube-bangybang-tubes-1

This is another listing I’ve seen online of Raytheon, but it’s construction is different (no ceramic plates biggest diff), same with a listing on langrex. Anyone able to solve the mystery?


----------



## mordy

tintinsnowydog said:


> Is there any possibility it is a mislabeled tube? It really is quite strange, the construction seems identical


It went through my mind that they may be mislabeled. If they are priced right I would not be afraid to buy them.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

mordy said:


> It went through my mind that they may be mislabeled. If they are priced right I would not be afraid to buy them.



I’m being offered 90$ aud for a pair nos nib, seems a lot less than an actual Bendix 6080wb but prices for that are inflated so I’m not too sure


----------



## mordy (Aug 15, 2018)

tintinsnowydog said:


> I’m being offered 90$ aud for a pair nos nib, seems a lot less than an actual Bendix 6080wb but prices for that are inflated so I’m not too sure


You could always pay USD$337 for a pair labeled Bendix.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendix-Red...850371&hash=item3d7048b509:g:umIAAOSwheFaxrai
The tubes you show look like the real thing.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Aug 15, 2018)

mordy said:


> You could always pay USD$337 for a pair labeled Bendix.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bendix-Red...850371&hash=item3d7048b509:g:umIAAOSwheFaxrai
> The tubes you show look like the real thing.



+ another 75$ shipping for me  would only consider that price for a pair of gec 6as7g

gonna take a chance with the 6080wcs I’m being offered. Hopefully I can find a proper Bendix wb to compare it to as well.


----------



## UntilThen

Raytheon have always been labelled wc and Bendix wb. You want those with solid graphite plates slotted. I have not heard a Raytheon 6080wc but those pictures look identical to my Bendix 6080wb.

At that price go for it.


----------



## mordy

tintinsnowydog said:


> + another 75$ shipping for me
> 
> gonna take a chance with the 6080wcs I’m being offered. Hopefully I can find a proper Bendix wb to compare it to as well.


If you click on sold items in the left hand column for the eBay page you will see this:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Bendix+6080WB&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1
One pair Raytheon graphite plates went for $73 six weeks ago. If you have patience and can wait, you may be able to pick similar deals....


----------



## tintinsnowydog

mordy said:


> If you click on sold items in the left hand column for the eBay page you will see this:
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=Bendix+6080WB&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1
> One pair Raytheon graphite plates went for $73 six weeks ago. If you have patience and can wait, you may be able to pick similar deals....



Wow that is one very lucky guy! I’ve got all the power tubes I need to roll around with a o will just camp eBay patiently for deals now


----------



## Dogmatrix

tintinsnowydog said:


> Is there any possibility the Raytheon 6080WC is a mislabeled tube? It really is quite strange, the construction seems identical to Bendix
> 
> https://www.bangybang.com/collectio...080-5998-premium-power-tube-bangybang-tubes-1
> 
> This is another listing I’ve seen online of Raytheon, but it’s construction is different (no ceramic plates biggest diff), same with a listing on langrex. Anyone able to solve the mystery?


My father worked in the defence industry from the 1950s on and he tells me these high G tubes were made for missiles as they are not as vulnerable to a nuclear detonation EMP as a solid state electronic . Raytheon was and indeed is a very large missile manufacturer I guess they purchased the tubes from Bendix and rebranded them


----------



## mordy

Dogmatrix said:


> My father worked in the defence industry from the 1950s on and he tells me these high G tubes were made for missiles as they are not as vulnerable to a nuclear detonation EMP as a solid state electronic . Raytheon was and indeed is a very large missile manufacturer I guess they purchased the tubes from Bendix and rebranded them



The Raytheon tubes referenced above do not have the graphite plates and are thus probably not made by Bendix. The seller, Bangybangtubes, is very high priced - a similar Raytheon pair is available today on eBay for $39 instead of $129.
Tubes with graphite plates are much heavier than tubes made with regular plates and come under several names: Tung Sol, Chatham, Bendix, Raytheon and Cetron. From what I have seen, the Cetron tubes seem to have more support rods than the same tube with the Raytheon name, even though the tubes may look the same.
You are right about vacuum tubes being more resistant to nuclear radiation than transistors - this is supposedly the reason why the Russians developed so many tubes, and we benefit from this today since very large quantities of Russian vacuum tubes are still available, even though production has ceased on some of them.
This accounts for so many new tube amps using Russian tubes. An old NOS tube may sound better in certain applications, but a tube amp manufacturer has to have a large reliable supply of tubes available, and cannot count on a couple of tubes here and there.....


----------



## thecrow

mordy said:


> The Raytheon tubes referenced above do not have the graphite plates and are thus probably not made by Bendix. The seller, Bangybangtubes, is very high priced - a similar Raytheon pair is available today on eBay for $39 instead of $129.
> Tubes with graphite plates are much heavier than tubes made with regular plates and come under several names: Tung Sol, Chatham, Bendix, Raytheon and Cetron. From what I have seen, the Cetron tubes seem to have more support rods than the same tube with the Raytheon name, even though the tubes may look the same.
> You are right about vacuum tubes being more resistant to nuclear radiation than transistors - this is supposedly the reason why the Russians developed so many tubes, and we benefit from this today since very large quantities of Russian vacuum tubes are still available, even though production has ceased on some of them.
> This accounts for so many new tube amps using Russian tubes. An old NOS tube may sound better in certain applications, but a tube amp manufacturer has to have a large reliable supply of tubes available, and cannot count on a couple of tubes here and there.....


i don't normally put negative vibes out there but...having said that.....
i(/we) beleive banbybangtubes is oldguyradiola - i don't even consider buying anything from that seller (based on his listings)


----------



## gibosi

Speaking of Raytheon 6080, here's an unusual one. At first glance, it might be mistaken for a Bendix, with the three ceramic spacers and metal bracing. But if you take a second look, you will notice that the plates are metal, not graphite. I have only this one tube, so I have no idea how it sounds.


----------



## mordy

The box below contains the User IDs that this member has used on eBay.









*User ID* *Effective Date* *End Date *
bangybangtubes Mar-11-18 Present
o*************a Jun-30-12 Mar-11-18 Does this mean OLDGUYRADIOLA?
Another mystery is how this seller can have 100% feedback.

Here is a link that exposes the Old Guy:
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=266850


----------



## myphone (Aug 16, 2018)

gibosi said:


> Speaking of Raytheon 6080, here's an unusual one. At first glance, it might be mistaken for a Bendix, with the three ceramic spacers and metal bracing. But if you take a second look, you will notice that the plates are metal, not graphite. I have only this one tube, so I have no idea how it sounds.



Gibosi,

I have a pair, did brief listening. Sound was similar to $10 regular Raytheon 6080. 






I also have Raytheon 6080 WA, WB and WC, they look the same.


----------



## thecrow (Aug 16, 2018)

In case this helps i have the bendix wh graphite plates. It’s the only version i have.heard.  As well as being a heavy tube so is there sound in a good way.

No grain issiues, fairly decent in the detail and great with solid rock - eg deep purple. Not congested as such given their sound characteristics
An alternative/complemet to tubes like the ts5998 or gec 6as7g - but i would get those first

These are a little hard to come by


----------



## mordy

myphone said:


> Gibosi,
> 
> I have a pair, did brief listening. Sound was similar to $10 regular Raytheon 6080.
> 
> ...


Hi mp,
Do you have these Raytheon 6080WB graphite plates?




I have three of these supposedly Bendix tubes thanks to Connieflyer.


----------



## gibosi

myphone said:


> Gibosi,
> 
> I have a pair, did brief listening. Sound was similar to $10 regular Raytheon 6080.
> 
> ...



Thanks!  And this is good to know. I won't waste any time or money trying to get a another. lol


----------



## myphone

mordy said:


> Hi mp,
> Do you have these Raytheon 6080WB graphite plates?
> 
> I have three of these supposedly Bendix tubes thanks to Connieflyer.



Mordy, all my graphic plate 6080WB are labeled either Tung-Sol or Chatham. Slotted plates are Bendix.


----------



## gibosi

To my knowledge only Bendix manufactured the 6080 with graphite plates, regardless of branding. And there are a number of variations as can be seen in the following link. And I'm not sure this is all of them....

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-91#post-10625059


----------



## billerb1

GEC 6080's on ebay......

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-6080-G...806221?hash=item286433c50d:g:0AkAAOSwHj1beDUl


----------



## Scutey

billerb1 said:


> GEC 6080's on ebay......
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-6080-G...806221?hash=item286433c50d:g:0AkAAOSwHj1beDUl


That's the first I've seen up for sale for some time, they seem ok, only problem is import tax, which will bump up the price.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

billerb1 said:


> GEC 6080's on ebay......
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-6080-G...806221?hash=item286433c50d:g:0AkAAOSwHj1beDUl



So did someone here end up grabbing those? I was 5$ off the top bid because I fell asleep 20 min before the listing ended... damn time zones. price was a little high for me anyways though


----------



## Scutey

I think they went for 185 usd.


----------



## Reddart67

tintinsnowydog said:


> So did someone here end up grabbing those? I was 5$ off the top bid because I fell asleep 20 min before the listing ended... damn time zones. price was a little high for me anyways though


Heh, heh, heh.....



Scutey said:


> I think they went for 185 usd.


 $157.50+$14 shipping.


----------



## Reddart67

I’m a tube roller from my guitar amp days, just getting into headphones and HP amps.  I have a modified little bear p7, and am building my own amp based on that. 

I have just about everything 6AS7/6080 now, but still on the lookout for a Bendix graphite plate 6080 and a domino plate Tung-Sol 6AS7.


----------



## mordy

Reddart67 said:


> I’m a tube roller from my guitar amp days, just getting into headphones and HP amps.  I have a modified little bear p7, and am building my own amp based on that.
> 
> I have just about everything 6AS7/6080 now, but still on the lookout for a Bendix graphite plate 6080 and a domino plate Tung-Sol 6AS7.


Hi R67,
It is my impression that all graphite plate 6080 tubes were made by Bendix. There are a number of variants, and you may be able to find a better price looking for graphite 6080WB/WC tubes under Raytheon, Chatham and Tung Sol names.
The Tung Sol domino plates can be found with other names as well and other designations such as 6520 or 2399/3002399.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Tung-Sol...941097?hash=item3fa8ae6529:g:PacAAOSwhE9bdu63


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Reddart67 said:


> I’m a tube roller from my guitar amp days, just getting into headphones and HP amps.  I have a modified little bear p7, and am building my own amp based on that.
> 
> I have just about everything 6AS7/6080 now, but still on the lookout for a Bendix graphite plate 6080 and a domino plate Tung-Sol 6AS7.



There is a pair up for sale nos nib on eBay right now from a German seller, first result of you search 5998 tube. I ordered a pair from him as did another member here and they’re both pristine condition. 



mordy said:


> Hi R67,
> It is my impression that all graphite plate 6080 tubes were made by Bendix. There are a number of variants, and you may be able to find a better price looking for graphite 6080WB/WC tubes under Raytheon, Chatham and Tung Sol names.
> The Tung Sol domino plates can be found with other names as well and other designations such as 6520 or 2399/3002399.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Tung-Sol...941097?hash=item3fa8ae6529:g:PacAAOSwhE9bdu63




Shhh I want that one


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Are CEI branded 6080s the same as mullards?


----------



## gibosi

Can't say for sure without seeing the tube. The best way to know for sure is to check the construction:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-272#post-14419446


----------



## tintinsnowydog

gibosi said:


> Can't say for sure without seeing the tube. The best way to know for sure is to check the construction:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-272#post-14419446



https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/182436519033

They are labeled 6as7gy. Can’t find much info on them, picture isn’t super clear either but looks very close to Mullard?


----------



## gibosi

The fact that "Made in USA" is printed on the glass suggests an American manufacturer. They look a lot like Sylvania to me, except that Sylvania usually have three mica spacers, whereas, these have only two. Anyway, I seriously doubt that these are Mullard 6080....


----------



## tintinsnowydog

gibosi said:


> The fact that "Made in USA" is printed on the glass suggests an American manufacturer. They look a lot like Sylvania to me, except that Sylvania usually have three mica spacers, whereas, these have only two. Anyway, I seriously doubt that these are Mullard 6080....



completely missed the made in usa. interesting tube, price is a little too high to justify buying just to test it out.


----------



## abvolt

price is way too high.


----------



## Mizicke5273

gibosi said:


> The GEC on the left was manufactured in 1961 and the Mullard on the right, 1966. The Mullard has copper grid posts, whereas, the GEC has steel. And as you note, the bottom mica on the GEC has ten teeth, whereas, the bottom mica on the Mullard is round.  And also, the construction above the top two mica is quite different.



Anyone have a good source for the Mullard 6080s shown on the right?  I want to get a spare pair or two.


----------



## Scutey

They seem to be getting rather scarce, these guys seem to have a good supply though.

https://valvetubes.com/6080wa-cv2984-mullard-british-valve-tubes.html


----------



## attmci

Mizicke5273 said:


> Anyone have a good source for the Mullard 6080s shown on the right?  I want to get a spare pair or two.


If you can check the code on the tube, you will find many Philips 6080 are "Mullard 6080".


----------



## Mizicke5273

attmci said:


> If you can check the code on the tube, you will find many Philips 6080 are "Mullard 6080".



You mean like on the back of the tube; opposite the Mullard logo?  Such as:
AJ1
R2G1


----------



## gibosi

Mizicke5273 said:


> You mean like on the back of the tube; opposite the Mullard logo?  Such as:
> AJ1
> R2G1



Yes. That is the Mullard production code. And since Mullard was a Philips subsidiary company, you might see these tubes carrying any of the other Philips brand names, including Valvo, Philips and Amperex.


----------



## attmci (Aug 30, 2018)

Mizicke5273 said:


> You mean like on the back of the tube; opposite the Mullard logo?  Such as:
> AJ1
> R2G1


True.
AJ1 = 6080?

R2G1

Could be Mitcham UK, 1962, July, first week......... Not sure.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

The 3 mullards I have are labelled AJ1,  but how do you read the date codes exactly? Is there much sonic difference between the 60’s ones and the 70’s?


----------



## attmci

tintinsnowydog said:


> The 3 mullards I have are labelled AJ1,  but how do you read the date codes exactly? Is there much sonic difference between the 60’s ones and the 70’s?


What're the other codes?


----------



## tintinsnowydog

R7K1, R8H4, other one rubbed off can’t see it. It has ZJ under the 6080 sign on the front, and KB/D


----------



## attmci (Aug 30, 2018)

tintinsnowydog said:


> R7K1, R8H4, other one rubbed off can’t see it. It has ZJ under the 6080 sign on the front, and KB/D


R : Mitcham

7 1967    8   1968
K   Nov .    H. Aug

1 1st week of Nov
4 .4th week of August


These are OK 6080s. Bendix 6080wb are better tube *for me*.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

attmci said:


> What're the other codes?





attmci said:


> R : Mitcham
> 
> 7 1967    8   1968
> K   Nov .    H. Aug
> ...



Also extremely expensive+ hard to find


----------



## gibosi

AJ1 suggests that they have the same construction. They conform to the first revision. That is, when the tube was first introduced, it was AJ0. The first revision is AJ1. To my ears, all AJ1 sound the same. And so there is no difference in sound between 60s and 70s production.

Here is the key to Philips production codes:

https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf.

R7K1 is likely the first week of November, 1967. R8H4 is likely the fourth week of August, 1968. And the third tube can be dated according to the CV code:. Z = 1968 and J = September.

https://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm


----------



## tintinsnowydog

gibosi said:


> AJ1 suggests that they have the same construction. They conform to the first revision. That is, when the tube was first introduced, it was AJ0. The first revision is AJ1. To my ears, all AJ1 sound the same. And so there is no difference in sound between 60s and 70s production.
> 
> Here is the key to Philips production codes:
> 
> ...



Thank you for the detailed response!


----------



## Mizicke5273

tintinsnowydog said:


> Thank you for the detailed response!



Seconded, thank you all for this great info!  I will look into some of the Phillip tubes also.


----------



## Thaddy

For those who enjoy the NOS Chatham JAN 6AS7G Clear Tops, I just picked up a matched pair from Dale @ VacuumTubes.net for $40.  They are an incredible bargain at that price.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

For everyone currently hunting for tubes, avoid shipping through the eBay GSP program at all costs. I just had a pair of mullard 6080 and a gec 6as7g seized by customs; my purchase was refunded, but they won’t be giving the items back to the seller either. Rare tubes lost forever; I’ve heard a few other sellers suffer the same loss too. Never had a trouble with any other shipping option until this one. Really sad


----------



## myphone

Thaddy said:


> For those who enjoy the NOS Chatham JAN 6AS7G Clear Tops, I just picked up a matched pair from Dale @ VacuumTubes.net for $40.  They are an incredible bargain at that price.



Thanks, bought the last pair today.


----------



## Thaddy

myphone said:


> Thanks, bought the last pair today.



Mine actually showed up today.  My other pair are the clear top Chatham branded tubes, but this time I got the Tung Sol branded tubes, which I believe means they date to when Tung Sol either took over the Chatham factory or bought up Chatham tubes and re-branded them.  Either way, great sounding tubes for $40!


----------



## gibosi

tintinsnowydog said:


> For everyone currently hunting for tubes, avoid shipping through the eBay GSP program at all costs. I just had a pair of mullard 6080 and a gec 6as7g seized by customs; my purchase was refunded, but they won’t be giving the items back to the seller either. Rare tubes lost forever; I’ve heard a few other sellers suffer the same loss too. Never had a trouble with any other shipping option until this one. Really sad



Agreed. I refuse to purchase from any vendor using GSP. Bureaucratic bumbling at its worst.


----------



## jekjek

I shared the same experience with GSP
They will confiscate it


----------



## mordy

I had a pair of Russian tubes disappear in the US customs, and I could never find out what happened to them - no answers to numerous inquires.
Luckily I got a refund from eBay.
Somebody suggested that the tubes were seized because the getter flash looks like mercury which is a forbidden substance to ship, but this could just be a joke - don't know.


----------



## UntilThen

Won the bid for a GEC u52. Delivery by GSP but it was never delivered and was returned to UK.

Got my refund but missed out on a beautiful rectifier. Don’t know when I will get that tube again.


----------



## mordy

UntilThen said:


> Won the bid for a GEC u52. Delivery by GSP but it was never delivered and was returned to UK.
> 
> Got my refund but missed out on a beautiful rectifier. Don’t know when I will get that tube again.


I assume that GSP means global shipping program. When looking for tubes from the UK, the shipping cost to the US via the global program could be 3-4 times higher than regular shipping. Why is that, and what is the point of the global program?


----------



## UntilThen

I have no idea. Seller used the GSP and after the auction I paid for it plus the shipping.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> I assume that GSP means global shipping program. When looking for tubes from the UK, the shipping cost to the US via the global program could be 3-4 times higher than regular shipping. Why is that, and what is the point of the global program?



The story I hear is that GSP gives the eBay seller more protection when shipping internationally. So evidently, it is good for the seller, but often terrible for the buyer. Again, I always check the shipping tab and if I see GSP, I refuse to bid.


----------



## Scutey (Sep 7, 2018)

Mine's a similar story, bought nice pair of TS 7236, posted under GSP and never got past US customs. What I don't understand is why does so much get stopped at customs under GSP?.


----------



## Cyberia Knight

tintinsnowydog said:


> For everyone currently hunting for tubes, avoid shipping through the eBay GSP program at all costs. I just had a pair of mullard 6080 and a gec 6as7g seized by customs; my purchase was refunded, but they won’t be giving the items back to the seller either. Rare tubes lost forever; I’ve heard a few other sellers suffer the same loss too. Never had a trouble with any other shipping option until this one. Really sad



I can only speak from my experiences I am in the UK and only buy from US sellers who have the "Global Shipping Option" sorting out UK customs charges  and all the hold ups is a nightmare. With GSP you make the payment up front no hassle no bureaucracy. I have bought loads of tubes from the US and I have never had a shipment lost, confiscated, or damaged maybe I have just been lucky. As for price with, Import duties, shipping and VAT at 20% on the total I think the costs are ok.

But don't get me started on charging VAT on second hand items or items made before the VAT system even existed !!!


----------



## Dogmatrix

I had some tubes disappear down the GSP rabbit hole earlier this year , A quad of National Union 7n7 . They were pristine 1940s 
I had used the GSP before for more common tubes without issue

 Pitney Bowes gave the following explanation after I queried

"I have looked into your query, and can confirm that the item was restricted for delivery to the Australia. It was reviewed by the Dangerous Goods Approved representative and was deemed that we could not deliver this item due to “ Amp tube(s) possibly manufactured pre-70s. In that era most lamps & tubes had mercury reflectors. In absence of clear data ruling out the risk, item has been rated UN3506, Mercury contained in manufactured article. Class 8, Corrosive & Toxic. Restricted to all countries on our system. Each country has different restrictions, and unfortunately this was unable to be delivered."

Ebay again after query gave the following explanation

"I can see that your seller has attempted to send this through the Global Shipping Program. The vintage tubes cannot be sent through the Global Shipping Program because it is a restricted item for the program to ship. After looking into it, I found that our third party shipping partner restricts these due to the following reasons:


1. Lead: all soldering, risks and handling method is known by most

2. Selenium diodes/rectifiers:

3. Mercury: Inside some rectifier tubes (6508, 82, 83, 866A)

4. Cadmium: Chassis plating of Fisher tube amplifiers (kx-200,400,500c,...)

5. PCB's : not the stuff components are mounted on, but "Polychlorinated Biphenyls".

6. Asbestos: Was used as heat shield in some tweed guitar amplifiers and as insulation material on wiring.


----------



## mordy

Dogmatrix said:


> I had some tubes disappear down the GSP rabbit hole earlier this year , A quad of National Union 7n7 . They were pristine 1940s
> I had used the GSP before for more common tubes without issue
> 
> Pitney Bowes gave the following explanation after I queried
> ...





Dogmatrix said:


> I had some tubes disappear down the GSP rabbit hole earlier this year , A quad of National Union 7n7 . They were pristine 1940s
> I had used the GSP before for more common tubes without issue
> 
> Pitney Bowes gave the following explanation after I queried
> ...


Hi D,
Thanks for this instructive post. I think that the mercury reflector they reference is the getter flash. It is barium and not mercury, although it looks silvery in a proper tube. A vacuum leak turns it into white.
There are antique mercury vapor tubes, but I don't think they see much use today.


----------



## dlen

tintinsnowydog said:


> For everyone currently hunting for tubes, avoid shipping through the eBay GSP program at all costs. I just had a pair of mullard 6080 and a gec 6as7g seized by customs; my purchase was refunded, but they won’t be giving the items back to the seller either. Rare tubes lost forever; I’ve heard a few other sellers suffer the same loss too. Never had a trouble with any other shipping option until this one. Really sad



The same thing occurred with me.


Scutey said:


> Mine's a similar story, bought nice pair of TS 7236, posted under GSP and never got past US customs. What I don't understand is why does so much get stopped at customs under GSP?.



Same for me too, also on TS 7236 tubes posted via GSP.


----------



## koven

Anyone have advice where to pickup a matched pair of TS 5998? Woo is charging $500 for them.. but I don't see much alternative options..


----------



## mordy

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-TUNG-...859739?hash=item239e21a25b:g:daQAAOSwBahVZK7z


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-TUNG-...859739?hash=item239e21a25b:g:daQAAOSwBahVZK7z


And if you are patient, I am sure that you will find something like this - this pair went for $170 a couple of days ago:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## koven

Thanks, I guess I'll keep an eye out on eBay.


----------



## attmci (Sep 8, 2018)

gibosi said:


> Agreed. I refuse to purchase from any vendor using GSP. Bureaucratic bumbling at its worst.


GSP is available outside US? Interesting.

https://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/private/global-shipping-programme#prohibited

I don't understand why they refused to return the items to the seller.


----------



## Skylab

I want to also echo this - you cannot ship tubes via the Global Shipping Program. I have sold 2 pair that were confiscated by customs. eBay refunded the seller AND I kept my money, so the only bummer is the tubes were undoubtedly destroyed, which sucks.


----------



## myphone

Thanks guys for alerting the GSP issues.

I received GEC 6AS7 last week (in USA) via GSP from England. Guess custom service screening is not water tight.


----------



## Reddart67

Makes me wonder if there is a “tube head” in customs...and the tubes that come across his desk are the ones that get confiscated and “destroyed”. The nanny state has to protect its citizens.


----------



## mordy

Reddart67 said:


> Makes me wonder if there is a “tube head” in customs...and the tubes that come across his desk are the ones that get confiscated and “destroyed”. The nanny state has to protect its citizens.


Only the ones that contain mercury.....


----------



## Dogmatrix

Just to clarify the GSP situation . It is not customs seizing the tubes it is Pitney Bowes the agent used by Ebay for the GSP . From my correspondence it seems it is one "inspector" who applies a strict interpretation of the code . When I pointed out that the tubes in question did not fall into any of the restricted  categories they replied .
The inspector has no evidence the tubes comply and must err on the side of caution . 
I suppose they are trying to protect people as if customs did seize the tubes a refund would be more problematic . Unfortunately because of the added expense of using the  GSP it is the rarest and most valuable tubes that are lost .


----------



## Scutey

Well at the second time of trying I managed to successfully get a pair of Tung Sol 7236 from a US eBay seller, so it can be done if you have a bit of luck!.


----------



## Thaddy

I've got a pair of Tung Sol and Sylvania 7236's that I haven't used in a long time, but I seem to remember them sounding very good.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Sep 13, 2018)

Chatham 6080WA arrived today. These sound incredible, to my ears they rival the gec 6as7gs; better musicality and tone, while still maintaining excellent separation/imaging and microdetail. It only falls behind the gec's in that it tends to sound a little harsh at times; not sibilant but more grainy(?), less refined. Perhaps this is desirable for stuff that needs that serious visceral impact. At 10x the price tag, now i'm questioning my decision of loading up on gec's!! both incredible tubes that must be tried at some point

Hope to get some chatham 6as7g coke bottle shaped ones to compare some time. compared to 5998s the 6080s are more enjoyable to listen to, and the gec 6as7g outdoes everything that makes 5998 technically superior.


----------



## angpsi

Hi guys, just fyi I'm letting go of my small collection of 6sn7 / 6080 tubes. Measured each and every one of them, and even paid to a professional service to double-check my own findings. If anyone wants to take advantage here's my ad: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-eu-6sn7-6080-el12-sold-as-lot.889555/


----------



## attmci

It would be appreciated if you could provide a link to the 2399 tube data.A quick Google search gives no answer.

Yes, I know it is a 5998.


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> It would be appreciated if you could provide a link to the 2399 tube data.A quick Google search gives no answer.
> 
> Yes, I know it is a 5998.


As far as I know, any number on the tube that ends with a 3 and many 9s indicates that this tube was made for IBM. Don't know if IBM required different specs for the tubes made for their computers.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> It would be appreciated if you could provide a link to the 2399 tube data.A quick Google search gives no answer.
> 
> Yes, I know it is a 5998.



As Mordy said, this number is simply an IBM stock number for the 5998. IBM used thousands of these tubes in their early computers.  For very large volume buyers, tube manufacturers were more than happy to custom label tubes for them.


----------



## wwmhf

IBM was influential in those days?


----------



## mordy

wwmhf said:


> IBM was influential in those days?


In 1964 IBM introduced the mainframe 360 computer and was the dominant force in the computer business in that era.


----------



## attmci

wwmhf said:


> IBM was influential in those days?


Wow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube_computer

Because the failure of any one of the thousands of tubes in a computer could result in errors, tube reliability was of high importance. Special quality tubes were built for computer service, with higher standards of materials, inspection and testing than standard receiving tubes.


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> Wow:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube_computer
> 
> Because the failure of any one of the thousands of tubes in a computer could result in errors, tube reliability was of high importance. Special quality tubes were built for computer service, with higher standards of materials, inspection and testing than standard receiving tubes.


Here is a sticker on my 3213999 Tung Sol tube (nee 7236):




They took things seriously....
And things have changed - they would never name something "Failure Analysis Group" today. 
More like "Quality Control Enhancement Team" or something similar lol.


----------



## attmci (Oct 22, 2018)

mordy said:


> Here is a sticker on my 3213999 Tung Sol tube (nee 7236):
> 
> They took things seriously....
> And things have changed - they would never name something "Failure Analysis Group" today.
> More like "Quality Control Enhancement Team" or something similar lol.


The structure of my 2399 tube is closer to that of 421A than 5998. The spec. of 5998 and 421A are slightly different.  That's why I am looking for 2399 specs.

If IBM can afford to build 65 billion computers that time, they should have no problem to use 421As.


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> The structure of my 2399 tube is closer to that of 421A than 5998. The spec. of 5998 and 421A are slightly different.  That's why I am looking for 2399 specs.
> 
> If IBM can afford to build 65 billion computers that time, they should have no problem to use 421As.


There has been a lot of debate if there is a difference between the 421 and 5998. I seem to remember somebody suggesting that the best 5998 tubes were picked to be labeled 421, but don't know if this is just speculation or fact.
It appears to me that IBM would be looking for uniform quality and reliability and of course price rather audiophile specs....
The first ENIAC computer used 19,000 tubes:




Here is an early 1954 vacuum tube computer Dumbkopf 1 for sale on eBay - a mere $150,000:




https://www.ebay.com/itm/HISTORIC-1...h=item3b1e162c4a:g:JCgAAOSwwpdW4PSC:rk:1:pf:0


----------



## attmci

mordy said:


> There has been a lot of debate if there is a difference between the 421 and 5998. I seem to remember somebody suggesting that the best 5998 tubes were picked to be labeled 421, but don't know if this is just speculation or fact.
> It appears to me that IBM would be looking for uniform quality and reliability and of course price rather audiophile specs....
> The first ENIAC computer used 19,000 tubes:
> 
> ...




Apple 1- $1 million dollars
Dumbkopf 1- $150,000 dollars

Apple 1- 1 small circuit board
Dumbkopf 1- huge heavy racks full of many chassis

Apple 1- a few capacitors and integrated circuits from 1970's
Dumbkopf 1- hundreds of vacuum tubes, modules, power supplies, huge blower fan, switches

Apple 1- many are known to be in existence
Dumbkopf 1- only 1 is known to exist

Apple 1- boring after 5 minutes of examination
Dumbkopf 1- exciting to explore on micro and macro levels of study

Apple 1- every major computer museum in the world has an Apple 1 computer
Dumbkopf 1- no museum anywhere has one

I accidentally pressed "Buy it Now'.....
WHAT should I do now? 







JK


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> Apple 1- $1 million dollars
> Dumbkopf 1- $150,000 dollars
> 
> Apple 1- 1 small circuit board
> ...


*DON'T PRESS THE CONFIRM BUTTON!!!!!!!!!*
UNLESS YOU WANT IT...


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> *DON'T PRESS THE CONFIRM BUTTON!!!!!!!!!*
> UNLESS YOU WANT IT...


Found something more affordable - an original Apple 1 mouse - only $9,600:




https://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-...h=item213bbf187f:g:FUEAAOSwIrpaukwl:rk:1:pf:0
But the shipping is a killer - $36......


----------



## attmci

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirlwind_I

This is the competitor..... Whirlwind


----------



## alvin sawdust

Has anyone tried using a pair of A2293 / CV4079 in place of 6AS7G with one of these adapters?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual...h=item2f2379c67b:g:WisAAOSw2yVbtq1f:rk:5:pf:0


----------



## wwmhf

alvin sawdust said:


> Has anyone tried using a pair of A2293 / CV4079 in place of 6AS7G with one of these adapters?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual...h=item2f2379c67b:g:WisAAOSw2yVbtq1f:rk:5:pf:0



Attempting, but I haven't tried anything like this idea yet. My concern is whether the amp is designed to support two tubes instead of one.


----------



## Dogmatrix

wwmhf said:


> Attempting, but I haven't tried anything like this idea yet. My concern is whether the amp is designed to support two tubes instead of one.


2 A2293 draw less current than one 6AS7G in terms of heaters so that would be ok but one data sheet I saw said the A2293 has 12 volt heaters so that might be an issue . Although another said they run fine and with an extended life on 6 volts .


----------



## alvin sawdust

Current wise they look fine and the voltage is 6.3, same as 6as7g. Think I will give these a go.


----------



## mordy

alvin sawdust said:


> Current wise they look fine and the voltage is 6.3, same as 6as7g. Think I will give these a go.


They are made by the same company as GEC (Marconi-Osram) so they should sound very good.


----------



## alvin sawdust

And most importantly they are reasonably priced. Have ordered the adapter.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Have a pair of GEC A2293 on their way to me from Germany. Hope to have them in my amp by the the beginning of next month fingers crossed.


----------



## mordy

What kind of amp do you have?


----------



## alvin sawdust

mordy said:


> What kind of amp do you have?


Apex Teton otl.


----------



## Dogmatrix

I am also on board for this adventure ordered the adapter and a pair of CV4079 . Running a custom otl with similar tube set to the teton , single 6922/6sn7/6f8g driver , single 6080/6as7g output and a 274b rectifier .
Seem to be plenty of these tubes around one UK vendor I often use has near 4000 CV4079 listed in stock . Interested to see if there is much difference between early A2293 and later CV4079 . Found another equivalent which seems to be the final designation from the 80s CV8089 . Best see if they work first I suppose , might sound terrible .


----------



## wwmhf

Dogmatrix said:


> I am also on board for this adventure ordered the adapter and a pair of CV4079 . Running a custom otl with similar tube set to the teton , single 6922/6sn7/6f8g driver , single 6080/6as7g output and a 274b rectifier .
> Seem to be plenty of these tubes around one UK vendor I often use has near 4000 CV4079 listed in stock . Interested to see if there is much difference between early A2293 and later CV4079 . Found another equivalent which seems to be the final designation from the 80s CV8089 . Best see if they work first I suppose , might sound terrible .



Please report back whether it sounds better/equal/worse than/to/than a 6080/6as7g.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Good stuff Dogmatrix, will be good to compare notes. Thanks to Xulingmrs superb adapters i've had loads of fun trying out various equivalents. This will be the first time i've used an adapter in the 6AS7 birth.


----------



## Dogmatrix

alvin sawdust said:


> Good stuff Dogmatrix, will be good to compare notes. Thanks to Xulingmrs superb adapters i've had loads of fun trying out various equivalents. This will be the first time i've used an adapter in the 6AS7 birth.



Same , I have a few driver adapters but nothing for the 6AS7G slot . Hoping for improved performance on low impedance cans . We will see soon if the Xmas parcels haven't started to clog the system already


----------



## alvin sawdust

Dogmatrix said:


> Same , I have a few driver adapters but nothing for the 6AS7G slot . Hoping for improved performance on low impedance cans . We will see soon if the Xmas parcels haven't started to clog the system already


Would be interesting to know what the output impedance is on these. Anyone here able to work it out?


----------



## attmci (Nov 23, 2018)

wwmhf said:


> Please report back whether it sounds better/equal/worse than/to/than a 6080/6as7g.


You mean GEC 6080/6as7g?

Have you guys tried to use two 6bl7/6bx7 to replace one 6as7g?


----------



## alvin sawdust

attmci said:


> You mean GEC 6080/6as7g?
> 
> Have you guys tried to use two 6bl7/6bx7 to replace one 6as7g?


No haven't tried 6BL7/6BX7 yet, tubes harder to get hold of here in the UK or even europe. Will definitely try at some point. Do you prefer them to 6AS7G?


----------



## attmci

alvin sawdust said:


> No haven't tried 6BL7/6BX7 yet, tubes harder to get hold of here in the UK or even europe. Will definitely try at some point. Do you prefer them to 6AS7G?


They are very nice combo and beats many 6as7g/6080 tubes. The Glenn's amp is built on these tubes and highly recommended by many friends here. The adapters are available on eBay.


----------



## alvin sawdust

attmci said:


> They are very nice combo and beats many 6as7g/6080 tubes. The Glenn's amp is built on these tubes and highly recommended by many friends here. The adapters are available on eBay.


Yeah have seen three tube adapters. Will try the A2293 first then research buying the 6BL7. Have you had any problems with noisy 6BL7/6BX7 and do you like best between BL and BX?


----------



## attmci (Nov 23, 2018)

alvin sawdust said:


> Yeah have seen three tube adapters. Will try the A2293 first then research buying the 6BL7. Have you had any problems with noisy 6BL7/6BX7 and do you like best between BL and BX?


You don't need 3-to-1. And also check if your transformer's heat current. 

You can choose to use 6bl7 or 6bx7 according to you taste/mode/amp/headphone (Why? There is no universal best. Your best probably isn't my best. Price has nothing to do with whether you will like a tube or not. The only person who will always find the most expensive component to sound best simply substitutes a need to show off for having an ear. "Only" is a little misleading here, there are very many of these people.). 

Try to buy a bunch of these from a dealer to save shipping fee.


----------



## alvin sawdust

attmci said:


> You don't need 3-to-1. And also check if your transformer's heat current. You can choose to use 6bl7 or 6bx7 to you taste. Try to buy a bunch of these from a dealer to save shipping fee.


The Teton can more than handle 2 or 3 6BL7 and I have heard good reports too. Wouldn't say i'm a cheap bas*$@d but I have been on a bit of a mission recently to try and find cheap alternatives that really sing in all tube positions on the Teton.


----------



## attmci (Nov 23, 2018)

alvin sawdust said:


> The Teton can more than handle 2 or 3 6BL7 and I have heard good reports too. Wouldn't say i'm a cheap bas*$@d but I have been on a bit of a mission recently to try and find cheap alternatives that really sing in all tube positions on the Teton.



You are not cheap, the Teton is a classic and expensive OTL. 

The 6bl7/6bx7 are very cheap here at US.

BTW, I got all my GEC/Marconi/MWT 6as7gs from UK. You guys are very lucky!!!!


----------



## alvin sawdust

attmci said:


> You are not cheap, the Teton is a classic and expensive OTL.
> 
> The 6bl7/6bx7 are very cheap here at US.
> 
> BTW, I got all my GEC/Marconi/MWT 6as7gs from UK. You guys are very lucky!!!!


Thanks. The price of British rectifier and power tubes has gone through the roof. I haven't used a 6sn7 for ages, instead prefering 7193, 6j5, det20 and other alternatives which to me sound quite a bit better.
Would love to hear one of Glenn's creations at some point.


----------



## alvin sawdust

The adapter and tubes arrived today and have been powered up for a couple of hours. So far I am impressed. Quite a bit more gain than 6AS7G, volume at 9.00 instead of 11.00. They are playing well with my HD800, don't have any low z phones to try except for Grado sr60. First thing that grabbed my attention is how meaty the low end is. Tubes are very quiet. Will comment more with more hours on them.
I will say though already, for the money it's a no brainer.

Forgot to mention, tube pins had green oxidization on them but cleaned up easily with some fine emery paper. Make sure the pins are straight or else it's a bit of a pig to fit them in the adapter.

Any nearer to receiving yours dogmatrix?


----------



## Dogmatrix

alvin sawdust said:


> Any nearer to receiving yours dogmatrix?



Adapter arrived yesterday , it is very neat and appears well made . Tubes are some way off coming from Spain prob next week . Great to hear everything works with positive results .
My amps transformer is closely tailored to the stock tube set so no 6bl or 6bx for me


----------



## wwmhf

alvin sawdust said:


> The adapter and tubes arrived today and have been powered up for a couple of hours. So far I am impressed. Quite a bit more gain than 6AS7G, volume at 9.00 instead of 11.00. They are playing well with my HD800, don't have any low z phones to try except for Grado sr60. First thing that grabbed my attention is how meaty the low end is. Tubes are very quiet. Will comment more with more hours on them.
> I will say though already, for the money it's a no brainer.
> 
> Forgot to mention, tube pins had green oxidization on them but cleaned up easily with some fine emery paper. Make sure the pins are straight or else it's a bit of a pig to fit them in the adapter.
> ...




Thanks for your initial report. Good to know that this "composite tube" of 6AS7G has more gain and meaty at the low end. A couple more questions:

1. Does it generate more heat?
2. Does it sound smoother than 6AS7G? Especially for higher frequency


----------



## alvin sawdust

wwmhf said:


> Thanks for your initial report. Good to know that this "composite tube" of 6AS7G has more gain and meaty at the low end. A couple more questions:
> 
> 1. Does it generate more heat?
> 2. Does it sound smoother than 6AS7G? Especially for higher frequency


So far they sound smoother than 6AS7G. Heat wise I would say they are similar.


----------



## wwmhf

alvin sawdust said:


> So far they sound smoother than 6AS7G. Heat wise I would say they are similar.



Thanks a lot Alvin, those observations are encouraging!


----------



## alvin sawdust

wwmhf said:


> Thanks a lot Alvin, those observations are encouraging!


I'm hoping someone with younger ears than mine will eventually be able to describe these tubes better.


----------



## 2359glenn

alvin sawdust said:


> Thanks. The price of British rectifier and power tubes has gone through the roof. I haven't used a 6sn7 for ages, instead prefering 7193, 6j5, det20 and other alternatives which to me sound quite a bit better.
> Would love to hear one of Glenn's creations at some point.



If you can use 6J5s try to find some GEC  L63  fantastic sounding tube. It is a British 6J5 and it is totally quiet.


----------



## wwmhf

alvin sawdust said:


> I'm hoping someone with younger ears than mine will eventually be able to describe these tubes better.



I wish I can help in this issue, but (1) I do not have this configuration yet, (2) more critically, my ears might be as old as yours, if not older...


----------



## alvin sawdust

2359glenn said:


> If you can use 6J5s try to find some GEC  L63  fantastic sounding tube. It is a British 6J5 and it is totally quiet.



 

I have a pair of these that I use occasionally but not that keen on them, too forward sounding. Much prefer the straight glass 6j5 I have. Might treat myself to a pair of GEC L63 straight glass for xmas. My faves are the Ken Rad 7193. Sorry for going OT.


----------



## alvin sawdust

Well I have to say the A2293 sound excellent. They have the GEC house sound compared to the 6AS7G with a bit more low frequency thunder and a bit smoother sounding without sacrificing detail and bite to these ears. Soundstage has good width and depth. Only downside, my pair can be a little noisy and microphonic at times. At current prices they are a real bargain, fill yer boots lads!


----------



## wwmhf

Really want to try composite tube idea, but it seems like that not that many are for sale on ebay in us


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Dec 2, 2018)

alvin sawdust said:


> Well I have to say the A2293 sound excellent. They have the GEC house sound compared to the 6AS7G with a bit more low frequency thunder and a bit smoother sounding without sacrificing detail and bite to these ears. Soundstage has good width and depth. Only downside, my pair can be a little noisy and microphonic at times. At current prices they are a real bargain, fill yer boots lads!



very positive to hear! anyone else tried it out yet and have impressions? I'm going to hunt for these, only trouble is I'll need 4x tubes and 2x adapters to use on my figaro amp

edit; and i'm going to have trouble fitting that adaptor on the amp without obstructing the driver slot... might need to stack a whole lot of socket savers to get it above the driver tube height


----------



## Dogmatrix

tintinsnowydog said:


> very positive to hear! anyone else tried it out yet and have impressions? I'm going to hunt for these, only trouble is I'll need 4x tubes and 2x adapters to use on my figaro amp
> 
> edit; and i'm going to have trouble fitting that adaptor on the amp without obstructing the driver slot... might need to stack a whole lot of socket savers to get it above the driver tube height



Assuming you have a 339 I think you should be ok the adapter is smaller than it looks , less than 15mm larger than a 6AS7g base on each side . Also it runs 90 degrees to the guide key on the 6AS7 socket so may run front to back on your amp


----------



## abvolt

alvin sawdust said:


> Well I have to say the A2293 sound excellent. They have the GEC house sound compared to the 6AS7G with a bit more low frequency thunder and a bit smoother sounding without sacrificing detail and bite to these ears. Soundstage has good width and depth. Only downside, my pair can be a little noisy and microphonic at times. At current prices they are a real bargain, fill yer boots lads!



Very cool I'll have to check these out..


----------



## Dvdlucena

les_garten said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...



Sorry to open this thread years now... but I have the same felling. 
Paid big money for 5998 ting sol, but I’m really disappointed. To lean and bright with hd800


----------



## Scutey

Dvdlucena said:


> Sorry to open this thread years now... but I have the same felling.
> Paid big money for 5998 ting sol, but I’m really disappointed. To lean and bright with hd800


That's a bit surprising, one thing I've never found the Tung Sol 5998 to be is lean and bright, In my system the TS is warm, but not overly so, transparent, with good detail and deep, warm bass. If they are NOS it maybe that they need a few hours burn in.


----------



## gibosi

Drivers and rectifiers have a major affect on the sound as well. So if one finds the 5998's to be a bit too bright, choosing darker drivers and rectifiers may result in a sonic signature more to one's liking.


----------



## Dvdlucena

Scutey said:


> That's a bit surprising, one thing I've never found the Tung Sol 5998 to be is lean and bright, In my system the TS is warm, but not overly so, transparent, with good detail and deep, warm bass. If they are NOS it maybe that they need a few hours burn in.


That’s interesting and I didn’t think about that. They are indeed nos and I only used 8-12h and placed the RCA back.
Thanks for the orientation


----------



## Scutey

Dvdlucena said:


> That’s interesting and I didn’t think about that. They are indeed nos and I only used 8-12h and placed the RCA back.
> Thanks for the orientation


No problem, that can be a problem with NOS tubes, they might need 20/30+ hours burn in to fill out, nothings guaranteed of course, but it's worth a try. Good luck!.


----------



## azahler

I just bought a Mullard 6080 on ebay for about $60 but I'm worried it might be a fake. The seller claims the Mullard 6080 is new however what worries me is that the brand printing on the tube is crooked. In the picture below you will notice the L is not aligned with the other letters and also the lines around the shield are also not connected. Is this a normal imperfection that can be found on tubes or could this tube possibly be a fake?


----------



## mordy

azahler said:


> I just bought a Mullard 6080 on ebay for about $60 but I'm worried it might be a fake. The seller claims the Mullard 6080 is new however what worries me is that the brand printing on the tube is crooked. In the picture below you will notice the L is not aligned with the other letters and also the lines around the shield are also not connected. Is this a normal imperfection that can be found on tubes or could this tube possibly be a fake?


I wouldn't worry about the print - the main thing that counts is the internal construction. Pulled out one of my Mullard 6080 tubes and it looks very similar, although I cannot see all the details from your picture.
IMHO I don't think it is a fake. Most of the fake tubes are Russian and there are certain telltale giveaways from Russian tubes, very often a getter cup that looks like an inverted saucer.


----------



## azahler

mordy said:


> I wouldn't worry about the print - the main thing that counts is the internal construction. Pulled out one of my Mullard 6080 tubes and it looks very similar, although I cannot see all the details from your picture.
> IMHO I don't think it is a fake. Most of the fake tubes are Russian and there are certain telltale giveaways from Russian tubes, very often a getter cup that looks like an inverted saucer.



Thanks, that's reassuring to hear. I am new to tubes, do you have any good 6SN7 tube pairings to recommend with the Mullard 6080. My equipment is a Darkvoice 336 and HD 6XX. I also have a Shuguang black treasure tube on the way from china.


----------



## mordy

azahler said:


> Thanks, that's reassuring to hear. I am new to tubes, do you have any good 6SN7 tube pairings to recommend with the Mullard 6080. My equipment is a Darkvoice 336 and HD 6XX. I also have a Shuguang black treasure tube on the way from china.


Hi azahler,
Here is something that learnt - the same tube can sound different in different amps. Probably your best bet is to check on a blog of owners of the same amp that you have.
I also have a predilection for inexpensive good tubes. That said I like a 6SN7 variant - the Russian 6H8C (sometimes labeled 6N8S). There are many variants, but the one I have in mind was made by Foton from 1952-1955 and has ribbed anode plates. Looks like this:









Got the above pictures from eBay but not very clear. The identifying feature of this 6N8S/6H8C is the three ribs on the anode plate and the years of manufacture.



There are tons of 6H8C tubes for sale but very few of this exact type so look carefully.


----------



## attmci

azahler said:


> I just bought a Mullard 6080 on ebay for about $60 but I'm worried it might be a fake. The seller claims the Mullard 6080 is new however what worries me is that the brand printing on the tube is crooked. In the picture below you will notice the L is not aligned with the other letters and also the lines around the shield are also not connected. Is this a normal imperfection that can be found on tubes or could this tube possibly be a fake?


What's the code on the tube?


----------



## alvin sawdust

Anyone else received their A2293 and adapter yet?  Would be good to have someone validate what I am hearing.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

alvin sawdust said:


> Anyone else received their A2293 and adapter yet?  Would be good to have someone validate what I am hearing.



have tubes coming from langrex and adaptors from xulingmrs, hope they arrive some time next week. will post impressions. Tubes seem to be in abundant supply and cheap!


----------



## alvin sawdust

tintinsnowydog said:


> have tubes coming from langrex and adaptors from xulingmrs, hope they arrive some time next week. will post impressions. Tubes seem to be in abundant supply and cheap!


Confident you won't be disappointed, I have not had any urge to go back to the GEC 6AS7G. As most tubes do, they will take a few hours to settle down and open up. Have just won a A2293 on the bay for 99p!


----------



## Dogmatrix

alvin sawdust said:


> Anyone else received their A2293 and adapter yet?  Would be good to have someone validate what I am hearing.


Happy to validate , tubes arrived from Spain this morning . Only one hour so far but definitely a viable rolling option . Have some early production square getter A2293 on the way from UK to compare with what I think are mid to late CV4079 .
For me the best thing about GEC tubes is a subtle but beautiful clarity which extends throughout the spectrum . Strongest in the 6AS7G version it is also present in the 6080 version and I am happy to say the CV4079 . I will need much more time to grasp some sense of ranking . Certainly looks like a bargain back door into GEC


----------



## alvin sawdust (Dec 10, 2018)

Dogmatrix said:


> Happy to validate , tubes arrived from Spain this morning . Only one hour so far but definitely a viable rolling option . Have some early production square getter A2293 on the way from UK to compare with what I think are mid to late CV4079 .
> For me the best thing about GEC tubes is a subtle but beautiful clarity which extends throughout the spectrum . Strongest in the 6AS7G version it is also present in the 6080 version and I am happy to say the CV4079 . I will need much more time to grasp some sense of ranking . Certainly looks like a bargain back door into GEC


Excellent first impressions, couldn't have put it better myself. I need to do some back and forth with their big brother but for me they are better than the 6080 version of which I have two. Both seem to have a little sharpness in comparison to the A1834 that I have.
My cv4079 are 1962 halo getter and I have noticed that there are slightly differences in the construction of the tubes, mostly plate length and getter shape, so will be interesting to compare.
Mine have quietened down somewhat and are are only as micrphonic as their big brother now.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I posted this on anther thread, but thought it was relevant here as well 

I have collected and compared quite a few 6AS7's in my custom Bottlhead Crackatwoa, with the exception of the GEC 6080 and 6AS7G since they are nearly impossible to find in the USA. Tubes I have in collection include several Tung Sol 5998's, a Tung Sol 421A, multiple Western Electric 421A's, Bendix 6080WB (graphite), Chatham 6080WB (graphite), Tung Sol 6080's, Tung Sol 6AS7G's, Mullard CV2984, and a handful of others.

I recently received an Ebay notification on a saved search a created well over a year ago and had completely forgotten about: "Tung Sol 7802", I had read an instance of a Bottlehead forum user mentioning that this tube was sublime, but pretty rare. A was fortunately able to acquire five of them for around $80, what a steal! When I first got the tubes, I gave them a passing listen, assumed that they fell somewhere in the 6080 lineup in terms of performance, and went back to my default, the 421A.

Then the other day, I decided to give them another go. WOW I have been missing out. IMO, after doing some comparisons, this tube easily rivals the 5998 and WE 421A in terms of clarity, resolution, soundstage. I would say it is a little brighter than those two tubes and more mid-forward, but an absolutely pleasing listen and a top performer in my Crackatwoa.

Just wanted to share this PSA: if you happen across one of these tubes, don't hesitate to grab it, truly a diamond in the rough.


----------



## abvolt

Nice collection you've got..


----------



## mordy

L0rdGwyn said:


> I posted this on anther thread, but thought it was relevant here as well
> 
> I have collected and compared quite a few 6AS7's in my custom Bottlhead Crackatwoa, with the exception of the GEC 6080 and 6AS7G since they are nearly impossible to find in the USA. Tubes I have in collection include several Tung Sol 5998's, a Tung Sol 421A, multiple Western Electric 421A's, Bendix 6080WB (graphite), Chatham 6080WB (graphite), Tung Sol 6080's, Tung Sol 6AS7G's, Mullard CV2984, and a handful of others.
> 
> ...


Hi LG,
The Radiomuseum lists the TS 7802 at 0.5A but I am sure that it is a mistake - should be 2.5A.
I did notice that the amplification factor is 9 compared to 2 for many 6AS7 type tubes. I have a different amp than you (Glenn OTL) but have been told that a higher amplification factor may bring out more noise in my amp. On the other hand, this may not apply to your amp.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Dec 17, 2018)

Opening impressions of the A2293 compared with GEC 6as7g after a couple hours listening back and forth and having one of each on dual mono. Just dot points for now

-I struggled to get the tubes to sit flush with the adapters; at one point one of the tubes became unpowered but there was no sonic change.

-soundstage slightly smaller
-bass was more(?) plentiful but not as detailed (comparable to mullard 6080)
-treble rolled, overall sound signature is more laid back/warmer than 6as7g. This gave the illusion of a lot less detail at first, but i don't think the difference is as significant as it first seemed

-gain was less than 6as7g, so volume matching was hard. perhaps this skewed my perception of the small but noticeable drop in detail retrieval and layering specifically. Upper upper treble was where this was most apparent.

-i was satisfied by both tubes with the HD800 and LCD-2C, but found the A2293 a bit too warm with the HD650s.

-tubes probably need some more burn in time (very noisy, a bit microphonic and humming, i need to get them to sit in the sockets properly too). will update this if any impressions change

-overall I'd say that the sound is closer to the GEC 6080 than the GEC 6as7g, almost like a combination of the two. Definitely a very good choice as they are plentiful and cheap.


----------



## Dogmatrix

tintinsnowydog said:


> Opening impressions of the A2293 compared with GEC 6as7g after a couple hours listening back and forth and having one of each on dual mono. Just dot points for now
> 
> -I struggled to get the tubes to sit flush with the adapters; at one point one of the tubes became unpowered but there was no sonic change.
> 
> ...




I think you definitely have connexion issues . On my amp gain is considerably higher , absolutely no noise or microphonics  . I would rank them just under the GEC 6as7g .
The sockets are a problem as the connectors have a flat top profile . When the tube pins are presented they want to stop on top of the connector and if pushed they will try to go between the connector and the socket . It takes patience and a strong light to make sure each pin is going central in the connector . If all is well the tube will easily seat fully with only a gentle push .
Just received some early production A2293 (square getter) so will compare to the mid 70s cv4079 I have .


----------



## attmci

tintinsnowydog said:


> Opening impressions of the A2293 compared with GEC 6as7g after a couple hours listening back and forth and having one of each on dual mono. Just dot points for now
> 
> -I struggled to get the tubes to sit flush with the adapters; at one point one of the tubes became unpowered but there was no sonic change.
> 
> ...



Because no one can use these.


----------



## attmci

The detailed structures between the 57 Clear-top 2399 and the 56 WE 421A are different.

All mine clear-top tubes were produced in 57. Strange.


See the attached file.
WE-421A.pdf
5998.pdf

Need to find out the relationship between the Chatham and WE (a Bell company).

"Chatham Electronics Div was latterly a Division of Tung-Sol Electric Inc, Livingston, NJ. This in turn was part of Wagner Electric Corp in 1966 finally acquired by Studebaker in 1967. The Chatham organisation manufactured equipment but the tubes owe more to Tung-Sol as Chatham was not independent of their parent company."

"
The 1967 merger that created the company was arranged by the entrepreneur Derald Ruttenberg, who took the risk of buying Studebaker despite the liabilities that came with it, including dealer warranties and union agreements. He saw that Onan generators and STP engine additives were healthy businesses. The large tax loss was also valuable. Worthington was expected to continue to earn steady profits, but could use the tax loss to avoid paying taxes.[6]

"The stockholders of Studebaker and Worthington approved the merger despite rumors that the Federal Trade Commission considered the merger would be "substantially anti-competitive". The combined 1966 gross revenues of the two companies had been $672 million, with net income of $24.5 million.[7] Studebaker was acquired by Wagner Electric, which in turn was merged with Worthington Corporation to create Studebaker-Worthington.[8] The merger was completed in November 1967, creating a company with $550 million of assets.[9] The combined company included the profitable divisions from Studebaker, brake and electrical automobile component manufacturing from Wagner Electric, and diverse operations from Worthington that included manufacture of construction equipment, valves and power generation plant.[5]"

Did they spin off some divisions during the merge?

WE do have a history to design tubes to support the phone company.


Link to the old debate.


----------



## nocturaline

Hi everyone. I posted this in another thread that may be no longer active, so I'll take my chances here. If anyone can help, that would be awesome.

To sum it up, one of my WA2 power tube is humming pretty bad. Those are the original power tubes, Philips JAN 6080WC. Since I can't afford expensive tubes at the moment, I was thinking of replacing them with the SED Winged 'C' 6H13C. Those are $30 a piece. Would they be inferior or mostly equivalent to the 6080? Thanks!


----------



## mordy

Hi ne,
A quick eBay search now reveals the following prices:
I am not familiar with how your amp sounds, but you can replace those Philips/Sylvania 6080WC tubes (pair) for $30  shipped.
A cheaper alternative which sounds good is the the RCA 6080 - several sellers on eBay offer pairs for $20 shipped.
Then there is the similar 6AS7GA - you can get a pair for $27 shipped.
The Svetlana 6H13C goes under several designations such as 6N13S and 6N5S - there is a seller that has a pair for under $19 shipped.
The Svetlana is a solid and quiet tube, but personally I prefer the other three in this budget range.


----------



## nocturaline

mordy said:


> Hi ne,
> A quick eBay search now reveals the following prices:
> I am not familiar with how your amp sounds, but you can replace those Philips/Sylvania 6080WC tubes (pair) for $30  shipped.
> A cheaper alternative which sounds good is the the RCA 6080 - several sellers on eBay offer pairs for $20 shipped.
> ...


Thanks! I will take a look.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

tintinsnowydog said:


> Opening impressions of the A2293 compared with GEC 6as7g after a couple hours listening back and forth and having one of each on dual mono. Just dot points for now
> 
> -I struggled to get the tubes to sit flush with the adapters; at one point one of the tubes became unpowered but there was no sonic change.
> 
> ...





Dogmatrix said:


> I think you definitely have connexion issues . On my amp gain is considerably higher , absolutely no noise or microphonics  . I would rank them just under the GEC 6as7g .
> The sockets are a problem as the connectors have a flat top profile . When the tube pins are presented they want to stop on top of the connector and if pushed they will try to go between the connector and the socket . It takes patience and a strong light to make sure each pin is going central in the connector . If all is well the tube will easily seat fully with only a gentle push .
> Just received some early production A2293 (square getter) so will compare to the mid 70s cv4079 I have .



Thanks for the heads up, it took a considerable amount of force but I managed to get the tubes to sit flush with the connectors and it made a huge difference to the sound. I will amend my previous impressions; these are now slightly more musical and less analytical than the 6AS7G, with deeper/punchier bass, and almost as good separation/imaging/soundstage. Very impressive, a great find for sure! Looks very cool populating dual mono as well


----------



## alvin sawdust

Glad to hear you sorted the problem out. I have swapped GEC 6as7g and a2293 a few times now and it's hard to tell them apart to be honest.


----------



## Mizicke5273

tintinsnowydog said:


> Thanks for the heads up, it took a considerable amount of force but I managed to get the tubes to sit flush with the connectors and it made a huge difference to the sound. I will amend my previous impressions; these are now slightly more musical and less analytical than the 6AS7G, with deeper/punchier bass, and almost as good separation/imaging/soundstage. Very impressive, a great find for sure! Looks very cool populating dual mono as well



Which version is your 339?  Is it the 6SJ7 Driver Tube one?


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Mizicke5273 said:


> Which version is your 339?  Is it the 6SJ7 Driver Tube one?


 Yes 6SJ7 version, can use EF86 or EF80 with adapters


----------



## JKDJedi

I just got as described, a Sylvania 6AS7G NOS Chrome Top Black Plate Le Figaro NIB Philco tube, I can't tell what year it is, seems like mid 50's, any idea from the pics?


----------



## abvolt

RCA's look the same those sound very nice..enjoy


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> I just got as described, a Sylvania 6AS7G NOS Chrome Top Black Plate Le Figaro NIB Philco tube, I can't tell what year it is, seems like mid 50's, any idea from the pics?


Any date code or manufacturing codes? They do look like RCA tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 30, 2019)

mordy said:


> Any date code or manufacturing codes? They do look like RCA tubes.


None  probably got rubbed off.  EDITED: UPDATE-----> 
  So I slapped on the Elctro HArmonics to mate with the Philco and let them bake for 24 hours, and am digging the sound these two create. I had poo poo on them at first listen without letting them settle, So I've edited this post to update that these sound phenomenal with the Electro HArmonics. 
.


----------



## mordy

Just as a curiosity, the winged C tubes (Svetlana) tubes were originally made on RCA equipment sold to Russia in 1937.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 29, 2019)

mordy said:


> Just as a curiosity, the winged C tubes (Svetlana) tubes were originally made on RCA equipment sold to Russia in 1937.


Maybe, the one I have is probably more current , the manufacture closed in 2017, so not really sure what I have, could be new stock tube, and I really didn't give the Philco tube any burn in time, so maybe to soon to really judge it.
Edit: I'll post a pic of both of them side by side in a bit.


----------



## attmci

Any one want 5998 here?

I have nothing to do with this seller.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1236022622...d=123617447226&itm=123602262214&ul_noapp=true


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 29, 2019)

mordy said:


> Just as a curiosity, the winged C tubes (Svetlana) tubes were originally made on RCA equipment sold to Russia in 1937.


So here are the pics, they have some similarity like coke bottle shape but if you look closely they are not the same, base on Philco tube is longer. The C Wing tube has longer inners at the top, and my guess is the C Wing tube was made 1975 (maybe 81)?, just a guess, from the markings. The Philco is a 58 , again just a guess from other sales on the exact same Philco tube, the Philco tube has no markings unfortunately.


----------



## mordy

The give away on the Russian 6AS7 tubes are dual inverted saucer getters. These tubes, although not being produced any more, are in ample supply, and there are many forgeries out there with all kinds of famous names on them and authentic looking boxes - buyer beware!
Here is a pair of Svetlana tubes selling for $340/pair + shipping and branded Haltron which was a British re-brander (and calling them Telefunken !):




On the bottom tube you can see the two getters which are unique to the Svetlana tubes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7G-TUBE...181248?hash=item3b10569940:g:ZTEAAOSwdSRZ-5XN


----------



## abvolt

Right on, their Russian all right not worth owning at any price imo..


----------



## abvolt

attmci said:


> Any one want 5998 here?
> 
> I have nothing to do with this seller.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/123602262214?_trksid=p11021.c100851.m5053&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=1&asc=20170803121420&meid=a4fcee275432444c9b721c5bb570d868&pid=100851&rk=1&rkt=4&b=1&sd=123617447226&itm=123602262214&ul_noapp=true



That's a really good deal if their any good that is..


----------



## JKDJedi

Tung Sol 7236 any good?


----------



## abvolt

I enjoy them if you haven't heard them get a pair..


----------



## attmci

abvolt said:


> That's a really good deal if their any good that is..


I read again, the guy has some neg. ratings in the past year. And don't accept PayPal. Hmmm.


----------



## OldSkool

attmci said:


> I read again, the guy has some neg. ratings in the past year. And don't accept PayPal. Hmmm.



When I read "seller does not accept returns" I just keep looking elsewhere.


----------



## JKDJedi

Found a JAN Philips 6080 very cheap on Ebay, think they have more if anybody interested ----------- >  https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-WC-JAN-Philips-ECG-NOS-Side-Side-BAL-Noise-Tested-7236-5998-WE421A/223351233226?_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=2&asc=20131003132420&meid=0e25d04c607741e2bd738eef28d2c114&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=223355999334&itm=223351233226&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Found a JAN Philips 6080 very cheap on Ebay, think they have more if anybody interested ----------- >  https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-WC-JAN-Philips-ECG-NOS-Side-Side-BAL-Noise-Tested-7236-5998-WE421A/223351233226?_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=2&asc=20131003132420&meid=0e25d04c607741e2bd738eef28d2c114&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=223355999334&itm=223351233226&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


I believe this is the normal price. I could be wrong.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 2, 2019)

attmci said:


> I believe this is the normal price. I could be wrong.


 ok, I'm so green with this tube identifying (learning quick), what you guys think, will this (6080 WC JAN Philips)  hold up to so called Mullard standards?


----------



## attmci (Feb 2, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> ok, I'm so green with this tube identifying (learning quick), what you guys think, will this (6080 WC JAN Philips)  hold up to so called Mullard standards?



These are made in the USA.

The one you are looking for is a Philips rebranded Mullard 6080 (made in UK).

Looks like these ($80 last year. I bought one for about $15 long time ago):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1-pcs-...h=item3aa7bc5dc1:g:frUAAOxy63FS617g:rk:2:pf:0

The code R1G indicates it was made in Mullard, Mitcham.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> These are made in USA.
> 
> The one you are looking for is a Philips rebranded Mullard 6080 (made in UK).
> 
> ...


Holy $#!t. $199 wow... Yes thanks for the update.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Holy $#!t. $199 wow... Yes thanks for the update.



_*In my opinion*_, the best 6080 is Bendix 6080WB.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> ok, I'm so green with this tube identifying (learning quick), what you guys think, will this (6080 WC JAN Philips)  hold up to so called Mullard standards?



In the early 1980s Sylvania sold off its vacuum tube facilities to Philips. And after that, the only real change was the brand name, Philips ECG instead of Sylvania. So that 6080 WC JAN Philips ECG is essentially a Sylvania 6080WC. Many consider the Sylvania 6080WC to be a pretty good tube and $14 is a good price. But as above, it is not a Mullard.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> In the early 1980s Sylvania sold off its vacuum tube facilities to Philips. And after that, the only real change was the brand name, Philips ECG instead of Sylvania. So that 6080 WC JAN Philips ECG is essentially a Sylvania 6080WC. Many consider the Sylvania 6080WC to be a pretty good tube and $14 is a good price. But as above, it is not a Mullard.


Yeah it's a 87 (went and studied the photographs just now), so not really a steal. I'll check it out when it gets here, and maybe grab a keeper later on. Thanks for the heads up guys, glad I found this thread!


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 4, 2019)

Just got my 6080WC tube and am wondering about the white cap on it, from photos on the net I see mostly chrome topped tubes but this one is all white, should I be concerned? letting it warm up good before my sit down session. Weird thing is this thing seems like it's not even warming up, is that normal too for 6080 tubes, they run cooler than 6AS7G tubes?


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Just got my 6080WC tube and am wondering about the white cap on it, from photos on the net I see mostly chrome topped tubes but this one is all white, should I be concerned? letting it warm up good before my sit down session. Weird thing is this thing seems like it's not even warming up, is that normal too for 6080 tubes, they run cooler than 6AS7G tubes?


You mean the getter stuff turned white? Please post a picture. It could be a leaking tube.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 4, 2019)

attmci said:


> You mean the getter stuff turned white? Please post a picture. It could be a leaking tube.


The very top, that shiny coat that's suppose to be chrome. Its all white powder on my tube, anyway, it doesnt work, the guy suckered me, his pics show chrome top tubes but he sent me a powder white top tube, I'm at work now so maybe after work I'll post the dead tube.
Edited: So the vendor is gonna send me a replacement. So that makes me look like an ass I guess for maybe overreacting. Still not sure I want the replacement seeing how they're so fragile.


----------



## attmci (Feb 4, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> The very top, that shiny coat that's suppose to be chrome. Its all white powder on my tube, anyway, it doesnt work, the guy suckered me, his pics show chrome top tubes but he sent me a powder white top tube, I'm at work now so maybe after work I'll post the dead tube.
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/223355999334


This is DOA. You should contact the seller (attach a picture of the tube). This brand is "famous" for suddenly lost vacuum.


----------



## OldSkool

@JKDJedi  I'm betting the glass is cracked, probably upon transit. When the glass cracks, the tube loses its vacuum and turns white. Don't ask me how I know this, as it rekindles a painful memory.

About the only thing you can do at this point is make a Christmas tree ornament out of it.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 4, 2019)

OldSkool said:


> @JKDJedi  I'm betting the glass is cracked, probably upon transit. When the glass cracks, the tube loses its vacuum and turns white. Don't ask me how I know this, as it rekindles a painful memory.
> 
> About the only thing you can do at this point is make a Christmas tree ornament out of it.


Edited: So turns out the seller is gonna send me another one, and really feeling like a total jerk right now, I edited my negetive posts about the guy and deleted the links to his EBay page. Rough weekend for me I guess.


----------



## abvolt

sorry to see that dude will the seller replace it..


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Edited: So turns out the seller is gonna send me another one, and really feeling like a total jerk right now, I edited my negetive posts about the guy and deleted the links to his EBay page. Rough weekend for me I guess.


The guy is OK. He has a lot of 1641 RK60. But he recently double the price of his tubes. LOL

I believe he has tons of the same 6080 tubes, and didn't bother to check the tube before he sent it to you.

Peace.


----------



## JKDJedi

abvolt said:


> sorry to see that dude will the seller replace it..


He said he would, so all good.


----------



## JKDJedi

So the guy pulled through after all...there is good people on this earth folks! I did order the Mullard made Philips though..just in case.. Will there be a difference? The cheap American Philips tube vs the higher priced overseas Philips made tube. (England?)


----------



## mordy

Hi JKJD,
There will be a difference in sound but you have to decide what you like. There is another very important factor - synergy between different tubes.
A tube may sound very good together with a certain other tube, but another combination may not sound as good. The best source for what works well are other people that have the same amp as yourself and describe their findings.
Another factor that is often overlooked is that the same best sounding tube may not sound as good in a different amp, and conversely, a tube that does not have such a great name may shine in a different amp.
However, some tubes sound very good in many settings, and the Sylvania/Philips and Mullard 6080 are among those tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> Hi JKJD,
> There will be a difference in sound but you have to decide what you like. There is another very important factor - synergy between different tubes.
> A tube may sound very good together with a certain other tube, but another combination may not sound as good. The best source for what works well are other people that have the same amp as yourself and describe their findings.
> Another factor that is often overlooked is that the same best sounding tube may not sound as good in a different amp, and conversely, a tube that does not have such a great name may shine in a different amp.
> However, some tubes sound very good in many settings, and the Sylvania/Philips and Mullard 6080 are among those tubes.


Thanks, makes sense! I'll share those findings with the Darkvoice group. Seems like this group has a higher mindset when it comes to tubes, so forgive my eagerness to blend in.


----------



## attmci

Philips bought Sylvania…hence Philips ECG which are based on Sylvania designs.
The rumors about buying old manufacturing equipment from xxx and so on is B.S.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Philips bought Sylvania…hence Philips ECG which are based on Sylvania designs.
> The rumors about buying old manufacturing equipment from xxx and so on is B.S.


?


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> ?


Nothing.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Nothing.


LMAO., your alright man,


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> LMAO., your alright man,


You should buy a cheap 421A, and call it a day.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> You should buy a cheap 421A, and call it a day.



"Cheap" ??? Where can I get one, or two??? lol


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> "Cheap" ??? Where can I get one, or two??? lol


Cheaper than 422A......


----------



## gibosi

Cheaper? That's not saying much... lol 

In my experience, there is no such thing as a Holy Grail Super Tube that sounds best in every system. The 5998 comes quite close to the 421A. So if you really love that sound, the 421A might be worth chasing after. But very frankly, depending the the rest of the system -- driver, rectifier, headphones, etc. -- some of the other options may actually have better synergy.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Cheaper than 422A......


Thanks a lot...I feel like I'm searching for a needle in a haystack right now...


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks a lot...I feel like I'm searching for a needle in a haystack right now...


Here are some info. for you: https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.465


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Here are some info. for you: https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=663.465


Nice..so I put in a request to my "buddy"  with boxes full of tubes from when he was 9 years old, a Hail Mary for sure.... so we'll see.  Almost temped to make the 5 hour drive to his house.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> "Cheap" ??? Where can I get one, or two??? lol


Ken, 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-western-...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-El...83.l44720.c10&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true

Cheap enough?  










JK


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 9, 2019)

attmci said:


> Ken,
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-western-electric-421A-tube-tested-/401700627130?hash=item5d873922ba:gGsAAOSwkDtcV8u1&nma=true&si=IRUVMrpPU1TezU9tHw1SwmYvKq8%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> ...


Sold !


----------



## gibosi

Yes indeed, more than cheap enough. But too late for me.


----------



## attmci

Many websites recommend to use this method to spot micro-phonic tubes. However, this may permanently damage your tube.  




This is not a good practice to  check tubes either.  Sometimes, you may see a few small pieces of loose glass or insulating spacer inside of the tube, but this does not effect the performance.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Many websites recommend to use this method to spot micro-phonic tubes. However, this may permanently damage your tube.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use to wear rubber gloves handling these tubes then some dude hands me a box filled with tubes all laying on top of each other to go through ... I guess they are bomb proof!


----------



## attmci (Feb 23, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> I use to wear rubber gloves handling these tubes then some dude hands me a box filled with tubes all laying on top of each other to go through ... I guess they are bomb proof!


The tubes are more fragile when they are heated.

I believe everyone can easily spot a micro-phonic tube unless you use a dozen same type of tubes in your amp/dac.  Then the trick is swap a suspect tube to the same position in the other channel if possible.


----------



## attmci

Have fun if you want to give it a try.


----------



## mordy

Re the Svetlana 6AS7 equivalent, does anybody know if there is a  difference between 6N5S and 6N13S/6N13P/6H13C, if any?
Has anybody compared the 6N5S to the others?
According to gibosi, the 6N5S is a military version of the 6N13S, but the specs differ a little.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Re the Svetlana 6AS7 equivalent, does anybody know if there is a  difference between 6N5S and 6N13S/6N13P/6H13C, if any?
> Has anybody compared the 6N5S to the others?
> According to gibosi, the 6N5S is a military version of the 6N13S, but the specs differ a little.



Just to set the record straight....   This is not according to me. I just pointed out that the vendor below makes this claim, but I have no idea if it is correct. And very frankly, I have been doing this long enough now to be very skeptical regarding the claims that vendors make.

https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=107

The following datasheet summaries suggest that while they are very similar they are not identical. In the end, given that both of these are cheap and plentiful, I suggest that you trust your ears to tell you if they are the same or different.

http://www.russiantubes.com/prop.php?t=12&p=211
http://www.russiantubes.com/prop.php?t=12&p=203


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Just to set the record straight....   This is not according to me. I just pointed out that the vendor below makes this claim, but I have no idea if it is correct. And very frankly, I have been doing this long enough now to be very skeptical regarding the claims that vendors make.
> 
> https://tubes-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=107
> 
> ...


Hard to beat $20. They're $49 in Canada.


----------



## mordy (Feb 26, 2019)

JKDJedi said:


> Hard to beat $20. They're $49 in Canada.


Hi JKDJ,
I just ordered a pair of the 1960’s 6N5S for  $17 including shipping.
Seller is in Latvia


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 26, 2019)

mordy said:


> Hi JKDJ,
> I just ordered a pair of the 1960’s 6N5S for  $17 including shipping.
> Seller is in Latvia


Yeah.. Even better. Cant beat NOS https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N5S-MATCH...905127?hash=item1a6358ab67:g:O6MAAOSwjt1b1exN


----------



## JKDJedi

*RCA 6AS7G <------- There's a lot out there on the cheap.. worth grabbing? And which ones should I be looking for?*


----------



## Velozity

JKDJedi said:


> *RCA 6AS7G <------- There's a lot out there on the cheap.. worth grabbing? And which ones should I be looking for?*



Yes they're worth buying.  If you can find them NOS for $25 bucks or less I'd say get it.  It's a very nice budget tube that doesn't sound like one.


----------



## JKDJedi

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-RCA-Smok...-Tests-Good-Free-Shipping-IN-USA/113509534618 Can this tube play well with 6AS7G socket? RCA Smoked Glass Type 42


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-RCA-Smok...-Tests-Good-Free-Shipping-IN-USA/113509534618 Can this tube play well with 6AS7G socket? RCA Smoked Glass Type 42



No way.  The 42 is a 6-pin, power amplifier pentode.

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/021/4/42.pdf


----------



## JKDJedi

Just got the RCA in and wow.... Carbon Copy to the Philco tube I already own...These both made by Sylvania? The RCA seems to be older but they are an exact copy of each other O.o Coincidence?


----------



## gibosi

To my knowledge, only RCA and Chatham (acquired by Tung-Sol in the 1950's) manufactured the 6AS7G in the US. The two pictured above are RCA.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> To my knowledge, only RCA and Chatham (acquired by Tung-Sol in the 1950's) manufactured the 6AS7G in the US. The two pictured above are RCA.


So the Philco marked tube is really an RCA. Crazy.


----------



## mordy

I was very common for one company to sell tubes from another company under their own name - rebranding.
What is helpful is that knowing what the rebranded names are for specific expensive tubes can help you in finding bargains.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> I was very common for one company to sell tubes from another company under their own name - rebranding.
> What is helpful is that knowing what the rebranded names are for specific expensive tubes can help you in finding bargains.


Yup the RCA was a bargain, half the cost of the Philco. Learn something new here all the time. Thanks guys!


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 12, 2019)

Been rolling these 2 6080 tubes off and on and think I can form an objective opinion on them now. Why does the more costly Mullard made 6080 tube SUCK compared to the really cheap 6080WC tube? Does the 6080 need more burn in? I'm not getting this Mullard name at all right now..
Top photo is a Mullard 6080 rebranded to Philips.

Bottom photo is a JAN Philips 6080WC

The JAN 6080WC has better tonality and voice seems more natural. I don't get it.


----------



## gibosi

People tend to get hung up on "the best tubes". But in reality, every tube can sound great in the right system. In the end, it is all about personal preferences and synergy. And it appears that in your system, the Philips/Sylvania has better synergy and conforms to your personal preferences better than the Mullard. But in a different system, with a pair of different ears connected to a different brain, the Mullards may well be better.

So again, there really are no "best tubes". It is all very subjective. And my advice is to start cheap in order to learn what you like and don't like. And don't be surprised if a cheap one works better in your system than a considerably more expensive one that many other listeners have raved about. Enjoy.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> People tend to get hung up on "the best tubes". But in reality, every tube can sound great in the right system. In the end, it is all about personal preferences and synergy. And it appears that in your system, the Philips/Sylvania has better synergy and conforms to your personal preferences better than the Mullard. But in a different system, with a pair of different ears connected to a different brain, the Mullards may well be better.
> 
> So again, there really are no "best tubes". It is all very subjective. And my advice is to start cheap in order to learn what you like and don't like. And don't be surprised if a cheap one works better in your system than a considerably more expensive one that many other listeners have raved about. Enjoy.


Now I'm worried about the 421a coming in..


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Now I'm worried about the 421a coming in..



In the right system, it's a great tube.


----------



## billerb1

gibosi said:


> People tend to get hung up on "the best tubes". But in reality, every tube can sound great in the right system. In the end, it is all about personal preferences and synergy. And it appears that in your system, the Philips/Sylvania has better synergy and conforms to your personal preferences better than the Mullard. But in a different system, with a pair of different ears connected to a different brain, the Mullards may well be better.
> 
> So again, there really are no "best tubes". It is all very subjective. And my advice is to start cheap in order to learn what you like and don't like. And don't be surprised if a cheap one works better in your system than a considerably more expensive one that many other listeners have raved about. Enjoy.



Amen.


----------



## Velozity

JKDJedi said:


> Now I'm worried about the 421a coming in..




Yes...you should be.  I think you should just send it to me to be on the safe side!


----------



## zeroduke

JKDJedi said:


> Been rolling these 2 6080 tubes off and on and think I can form an objective opinion on them now. Why does the more costly Mullard made 6080 tube SUCK compared to the really cheap 6080WC tube? Does the 6080 need more burn in? I'm not getting this Mullard name at all right now..
> Top photo is a Mullard 6080 rebranded to Philips.
> 
> Bottom photo is a JAN Philips 6080WC
> ...



In my WooAudio WA2, these Mullard valves perform better when paired with EZ81 instead of EZ80 rectifiers.  The sound is clearer and more natural.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 13, 2019)

Velozity said:


> Yes...you should be.  I think you should just send it to me to be on the safe side!


Lol... She just arrived.


----------



## Mizicke5273

tintinsnowydog said:


> Thanks for the heads up, it took a considerable amount of force but I managed to get the tubes to sit flush with the connectors and it made a huge difference to the sound. I will amend my previous impressions; these are now slightly more musical and less analytical than the 6AS7G, with deeper/punchier bass, and almost as good separation/imaging/soundstage. Very impressive, a great find for sure! Looks very cool populating dual mono as well




Question about when your tubes were not seat correctly; did you get a scratchy and somewhat hollow tinny sound?  I checked the tubes and they all seem to be seated correctly in the adapters.  I had one tube when one of the pins was between the connector and socket, but I corrected that and still subpar sound quality.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Mizicke5273 said:


> Question about when your tubes were not seat correctly; did you get a scratchy and somewhat hollow tinny sound?  I checked the tubes and they all seem to be seated correctly in the adapters.  I had one tube when one of the pins was between the connector and socket, but I corrected that and still subpar sound quality.



I'd describe it as just a more distant, quieter sound, did not actually get any scratch. They did take a few hours of use to settle in (occassionally would sputter a bit at the start) so might be that. Otherwise I think you might have a bad tube :/ if you're on the lf339 try checking with one channel at a time and swap the tubes around in different configurations.  good luck!


----------



## Mizicke5273

Well, scratchy or staticky in the background and/or bass.  Not able to really tell clearly.  Yep, I'm running a La Figaro 339 and it is both channels.  I'll swap the tubes around today and see how that goes.  I'm also gona try re-seating them again.  I don't have a lot of brand new tubes, so the most I have experienced with a new set is slight noise.  

Here is the link to the tubes I bought:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/A2293-CV40...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## gibosi

Mizicke5273 said:


> Well, scratchy or staticky in the background and/or bass.  Not able to really tell clearly.  Yep, I'm running a La Figaro 339 and it is both channels.  I'll swap the tubes around today and see how that goes.  I'm also gona try re-seating them again.  I don't have a lot of brand new tubes, so the most I have experienced with a new set is slight noise.
> 
> Here is the link to the tubes I bought:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/A2293-CV4079-GEC-NOS-BOXED-VALVE-TUBE/271178940257?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



Another thing to try...  use 220 sandpaper and make those pins shine. This might help...


----------



## Mizicke5273

gibosi said:


> Another thing to try...  use 220 sandpaper and make those pins shine. This might help...




Thanks, just gave this a try and they are still the same.  I double checked the pins are in the connectors and seated good.  I also tried swapping one tube from each adapter.  After all that, they still sounded the same.  So, I decided to let them burn in some and I think they are starting to sound better.  I'll give them some more time.  If it is a case of the tubes just needing some time to burn in, I wasn't aware they could change that much.  I knew that new tubes could be noisy, just not expecting such a drastic starting point.


----------



## adeadcrab

gibosi said:


> Another thing to try...  use 220 sandpaper and make those pins shine. This might help...



I use deoxit (D100L) on the pins to help with metal on metal contact, and occasionally wipe the oxidised pins clean with some toilet paper. Is sandpaper better?


----------



## gibosi

In my experience mechanical cleaning has worked the best. If you sand the pins thoroughly there will be excellent metal on metal contact in the socket. So when I get new tubes, the first thing I do is mechanically clean the pins. Deoxit shouldn't hurt anything, especially if used very sparingly. However, I consider it unnecessary and I never use it. But of couse, YMMV.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Mizicke5273 said:


> Well, scratchy or staticky in the background and/or bass.  Not able to really tell clearly.  Yep, I'm running a La Figaro 339 and it is both channels.  I'll swap the tubes around today and see how that goes.  I'm also gona try re-seating them again.  I don't have a lot of brand new tubes, so the most I have experienced with a new set is slight noise.
> 
> Here is the link to the tubes I bought:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/A2293-CV4079-GEC-NOS-BOXED-VALVE-TUBE/271178940257?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



that is the same seller i bought from. hope burning in is helping, mine definitely did sputter quite a lot (and at random) in the first few hours of use


----------



## Mizicke5273

Got these GEC CV4079 finally signing!  

I did a few things over the last few days.  I tightened down the nuts and bolts on the adapters and made sure they were snug.  I swapped my Driver tubes from my Telefunken EF 86 to my Telefunken EF 800.  I was originally testing these GEC tubes with my pair of Beyer DT 880.  What appears to have happened, the EF 86 and GEC CV4079 were not a good combo for the Beyers; I think it pushed them too much in the low end.  Lowering the volume just slightly and/or disabling my Loki eliminated the issues I had.  Switching to my other headphones, while using the EF 86 and GEC CV4079 combo, seemed to have much less noticeable issues.  That is when I thought to swap out my driver tubes; the pairs of EF 86 that I have all seem to have good strong bass.  So, with the Telefunken EF 800 and GEC CV4079, I've now got a smooth set with very strong bass!  

Definitely enjoying these!  Just have to remember they do not pair well with at least my Telefunken EF 86 Drivers.


----------



## MD80 (Mar 26, 2019)

Hi! Need some help here. I have my first tube amp, an inexpensive Little Bear P7. It came with a chinese 6N5P tube, that I would like to upgrade. I have a chance to get a Haltron 6AS7G but I'm not sure nor the compatibility nor the quality (despite being "made in England")







What do you think?

Thanks!


----------



## gibosi

MD80 said:


> a Haltron 6AS7G but I'm not sure nor the compatibility nor the quality (despite being "made in England")



Sorry to disappoint, but that tube was not made in England. It was likely made in the USSR. That said, it is essentially the same as the 6N5P and should work fine. But the Haltron box doesn't make it worth a premium price. lol


----------



## MD80

gibosi said:


> Sorry to disappoint, but that tube was not made in England. It was likely made in the USSR. That said, it is essentially the same as the 6N5P and should work fine. But the Haltron box doesn't make it worth a premium price. lol



Thanks for the head up! It is what is written on  the box , haha. But it is pretty inexpensive (around 10 USD) Do you think is worth to try? I mean, any improvement in the sound is welcome.  Other option I have, is this one


----------



## gibosi

It is important to remember that audio is extremely subjective. It really comes down to personal preferences and system synergy. So while many turn their noses up at the Russian 6AS7, in some systems it sounds surprisingly good. So for $10, I would say it is certainly worth a try.

I don't know who manufactured the 6080, but it looks like Raytheon or perhaps RCA. Again, if it is cheap, it's worth a try.


----------



## adeadcrab

Russian 6AS7G (6H13C) are a solid all-rounder.


----------



## Monsterzero (Mar 28, 2019)

Has anyone had the pleasure of comparing the following tubes?

5998
GEC 6080
GEC 6a7g
Bendix 6080wb

Im looking to buy *one* pair of high end power tubes and want to make the best buy I can.

Mainly interested to know how each would rank vs the others in:
Depth
Width
sub bass extension
bass tightness
air.


----------



## gibosi

Monsterzero said:


> Bendix 6336wb



Bendix 6336WB? Perhaps you mean Bendix 6080WB? And there are a number of different versions of this tube, but many think that those with slots sound better than those without.

As to your question, I will simply repeat my standard response: It depends on personal preferences and system synergy. When comparing these tubes, it is not black and white, none of them are the "best". They are all superb, just different shades of gray. And some prefer one shade of gray over the others...


----------



## mordy

Monsterzero said:


> Has anyone had the pleasure of comparing the following tubes?
> 
> 5998
> GEC 6080
> ...


You probably mean the Bendix 6080WB.


----------



## Monsterzero

Yes,I meant the 6080wb... you guys should know by now I tend to mixup my numbers.


----------



## leftside (Mar 30, 2019)

I seem to remember reading that the curved base came before the straight base for the GEC 6AS7G? I've got tubes with date codes where the straight base comes before the curved base:

KB 4 date code. 'D' getter (all other's I've seen have an inverted saucer getter), Curved base:





LE 4 date code. Straight base. So far, so good. 'L' being later than 'K':





SB Z = back to curved base again. Different factory ('Z' not '4').





TD Z curved base:





TL Z and XH Z straight base:





Maybe they simply used whatever bases were available....


----------



## mordy

leftside said:


> I seem to remember reading that the curved base came before the straight base for the GEC 6AS7G? I've got tubes with date codes where the straight base comes before the curved base:
> 
> KB 4 date code. 'D' getter (all other's I've seen have an inverted saucer getter), Curved base:
> 
> ...


I seem to remember that people claim the curved base sounds better, but I have no way of verifying it.
What is your impression of the differences between in sound of these tubes, if any?


----------



## leftside

mordy said:


> I seem to remember that people claim the curved base sounds better, but I have no way of verifying it.
> What is your impression of the differences between in sound of these tubes, if any?


They all sound about the same to me @mordy


----------



## mordy

leftside said:


> They all sound about the same to me @mordy


Thanks - that's what I thought.
I have one "near" pair - an Osram and a GEC but they look and measure almost the same. Of course, for photo ops I only show the GEC label lol......
The Osram has no visible codes at all, but the GEC says RK  Z which means Hammersmith Factory, October 1960. Here is a link to a useful date code chart:
https://dalmura.com.au/static/MOV GEC date coding.pdf


----------



## leftside

mordy said:


> Thanks - that's what I thought.
> I have one "near" pair - an Osram and a GEC but they look and measure almost the same. Of course, for photo ops I only show the GEC label lol......
> The Osram has no visible codes at all, but the GEC says RK  Z which means Hammersmith Factory, October 1960. Here is a link to a useful date code chart:
> https://dalmura.com.au/static/MOV GEC date coding.pdf


Those looks like the same tubes, just different stickers. You don't see them with the Osram sticker very often. Very nice.

Scratch the stickers off, and they'll be the same tubes


----------



## cddc (Apr 2, 2019)

The prices of GEC 6SN7G, WE 421A, Tung Sol 5998 are becoming ridiculous now....

Just came across this thread and found lots of amps are competing for these tubes, DarkVoice, LF339, WA22....and my Crack /w speedball.

What makes it worse, LF339 and WA22 both require a pair of these tubes - must be a pita to buy a matched pair, I guess....LOL


----------



## cddc (Apr 2, 2019)

Anyway, if you guys find good deals on 5998 or 421A, please let me know.  

Much appreciate it!!!


----------



## cddc

Surprised to find the $10 Russian Winged "C" 6H13Cs are now selling for $50....crazy!

https://www.thetubestore.com/winged-c-6h13c-6as7g


----------



## mordy

cddc said:


> Surprised to find the $10 Russian Winged "C" 6H13Cs are now selling for $50....crazy!
> 
> https://www.thetubestore.com/winged-c-6h13c-6as7g


It's strange - used to be hundreds for sale at inexpensive prices, but the prices are all higher now and fewer tubes around.
Here is a pair for roughly half the price of the above offering. The tube designation is different, but it should be the exact same tube:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6N5S-6A...916263?hash=item567e493c67:g:wHIAAOSwLzdWRaS6


----------



## cddc

mordy said:


> It's strange - used to be hundreds for sale at inexpensive prices, but the prices are all higher now and fewer tubes around.
> Here is a pair for roughly half the price of the above offering. The tube designation is different, but it should be the exact same tube:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6N5S-6A...916263?hash=item567e493c67:g:wHIAAOSwLzdWRaS6




Thank you very much for the link. Just grabbed couple of 6H13Cs last night.

There are still lots of vendors on ebay selling these tubes for $10.

TheTubeStore.com just made itself a GREEDY tag.


----------



## mordy

Glad to be of help. Unfortunately the prices of tubes seems to be spiralling out of control, and some of the asking prices are insane....
Here is a USED tube listed for over $8,500.00 - at least the shipping isn't so expensive lol....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-El...m2f2e886d84:g:VZIAAOSw5bxcT1vW&frcectupt=true


----------



## cddc

Yeah...the tube world is crazy...lol

Luckily NOS 6AS7G tubes are still in abundance and readily available, relatively speaking. The "Holy Grails" of 300Bs like WE or Tele will hurt your wallet much more


----------



## Velozity

Just rolled in a Tung-Sol 7236 today that I bought on eBay for $20!  Holy shiznit this thing is magical paired with a Mullard CV4004 driver.  The 7236 is definitely better than the 5998 in my amp, even though my 5998 is dead quiet and performs wonderfully.  I just hate that I could've bought seven 7236s for the price I paid for one 5998!  The 7236 is everything the 5998 is plus more impact, deeper bass, and greater overall "refinement" if that makes sense.  I've got less than $400 invested in the Jade OTL setup on the left and with this tube pairing it goes toe-to-toe with the Woo WA6-SE setup on the right (Sylv. 6FD7 + Sophia 274B), which costs three times as much; power specs be damned.  In fact, I prefer the Jade today.  This amazing amp elevates to spectacular with the 7236 power tube.  Granted my Mullard driver is one of the best 12AX7s you can buy so I know it deserves much of this credit, but it's synergy with the 7236 is really something.


----------



## wwmhf

How and when you bought your 7236 at $20 should be a good story for us to enjoy ...


----------



## Velozity

wwmhf said:


> How and when you bought your 7236 at $20 should be a good story for us to enjoy ...




No story really.  Just bought it a week ago.  I've been hawking eBay every day though, so just got lucky.  I would suggest you guys snatch them up when you see them NOS.  I can't believe they are priced so much cheaper than 5998's.  Definitely qualifies as a sleeper tube IMO.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNG-SOL-7236-TUBES-WHITE-LABEL-METAL-BASE-5998-6AS7-7236/192879531973?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## wwmhf (Apr 10, 2019)

Thanks for sharing your experiences. You were lucky because I did not see it there on ebay ...

I actually bought a few 7236 tubes, but at much higher prices.


----------



## adeadcrab

They don't make these tubes anymore, price will continue to climb.. grab as many as you need when you can


----------



## cddc

Velozity said:


> The 7236 is everything the 5998 is plus more impact, deeper bass, and greater overall "refinement" if that makes sense.



@*Velozity*, just curious to know what music you normally listen to? And which headphones you paired with your amp?

I often saw conflicting comments regarding 5998. Some prefer 5998 for its large soundstage, great clarity, and overall balance, while others don't like it for lack of bass and warmth.


----------



## Velozity (Apr 10, 2019)

cddc said:


> @*Velozity*, just curious to know what music you normally listen to? And which headphones you paired with your amp?
> 
> I often saw conflicting comments regarding 5998. Some prefer 5998 for its large soundstage, great clarity, and overall balance, while others don't like it for lack of bass and warmth.




I listen to pretty much everything so long as it’s well-recorded.  Today’s playlist was jazz, orchestral, and electronic/ambient.  I listened to a few artists on ECM, Erased Tapes and Telarc labels.  These companies produce top notch recordings.  I don’t dislike the 5998 at all.  I like it so much that I don’t feel the need to pay big bucks for a 421A based on what I’ve read.  But the 7236 is a nice surprise, and paired  with the right driver in an OTL can yield outstanding results.  By comparison, I ran the 7236 with my Raytheon 5751 “windmill getter” and wasn’t as impressed.  It was just a bit too forward and lacked energy compared to the WA6-SE, but it was still nice.  I prefer the slightly looser 5998 with the 5751, and the tighter 7236 with the CV4004.  It’s all about dat synergy!  I’m using Beyerdynamic DT250 (250 ohm) which seems to be a very neutral set of cans, great for evaluating other gear.  @zach915m hasn’t shipped my Eikon Burl yet so I’m still awaiting sonic nirvana...


----------



## cddc

@Velozity, thanks very much for giving the detailed explanation on music genres and tube/headphone pairing.

I agree with you that pairing/synergy is very important. I find lots people fond of 5998 use Sennheiser HD650, which is a quite dark headphone IMO. Glad you find a great pairing for decent money.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

For those who have tried it, do you find that the Bendix 6080WB graphite plates has an altogether smaller soundstage relative to something like a Tung Sol 5998, Western Electric 421A, or even a Tung Sol 7802?  Just curious is the is specific to my amp or a property of the tube in general.


----------



## Dogmatrix

L0rdGwyn said:


> For those who have tried it, do you find that the Bendix 6080WB graphite plates has an altogether smaller soundstage relative to something like a Tung Sol 5998, Western Electric 421A, or even a Tung Sol 7802?  Just curious is the is specific to my amp or a property of the tube in general.


Keep in mind that the chunky graphite plates require at least an hour to warm up .


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Dogmatrix said:


> Keep in mind that the chunky graphite plates require at least an hour to warm up .



Thanks, I've let them heat up well beyond that, but I will keep it in mind!  On a more recent listen, I didn't find the differences as staggering as I once did, but still a smaller stage for me still.


----------



## Dogmatrix

L0rdGwyn said:


> Thanks, I've let them heat up well beyond that, but I will keep it in mind!  On a more recent listen, I didn't find the differences as staggering as I once did, but still a smaller stage for me still.


Ok . For me I find the 421/5998 to be overall the better tube and the strength of the Bendix is in midrange timbre .
For soundstage the best in my amp are Russian or british tubes ie mullard 6080 or GEC if you can spare the pennies but the plain old 6N5S SVETLANA is a great low cost option


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Dogmatrix said:


> Ok . For me I find the 421/5998 to be overall the better tube and the strength of the Bendix is in midrange timbre .
> For soundstage the best in my amp are Russian or british tubes ie mullard 6080 or GEC if you can spare the pennies but the plain old 6N5S SVETLANA is a great low cost option



Thanks, that's really helpful.  I have had a Bendix on hand for quite some time, but was surprised I did not like it much on its first pass, so it was set aside.  I am going to give it another chance with its midrange timbre in mind.  I am in the market for some GEC's, but they only come up so often and are hyperinflated given their scarcity.   My amp takes a single 6AS7G output, so at least I won't have to worry about finding matched pairs


----------



## attmci (May 1, 2019)

Deleted.


----------



## JKDJedi

gONNA HAVE SOME FUN THIS WEEKEND


----------



## jadverkko

JKDJedi said:


> gONNA HAVE SOME FUN THIS WEEKEND



Nice set of tubes! Mind sharing your thoughts on WE 421a comparing to TS 7236? I'm rockin' TS 7236 / Chatham 6AS7G and Telefunken E188CC on my Eufonika H7 and I have WE 421a also coming in my way so would be nice to hear some impressions.

Oh, and enjoy your weekend with those lovely tuubz!


----------



## JKDJedi (May 24, 2019)

jadverkko said:


> Nice set of tubes! Mind sharing your thoughts on WE 421a comparing to TS 7236? I'm rockin' TS 7236 / Chatham 6AS7G and Telefunken E188CC on my Eufonika H7 and I have WE 421a also coming in my way so would be nice to hear some impressions.
> 
> Oh, and enjoy your weekend with those lovely tuubz!


Just going off memory here, because I tucked the 421a away for them special occasions, like storing your best wine per se, is the better overall listening experience compared to the 7236. The 7236 seems to have a faster cleaner sound with tight bass. The 421a is lush and warm, with a huge sound presentation. With the right preamp tube..........Cha Bang!!


----------



## jadverkko (May 26, 2019)

Anybody have info on National Electronics brand tubes? I saw a NE 5998 Made in USA. Hard to find any information about the brand. Maybe fake?


----------



## mordy

jadverkko said:


> Anybody have info on National Electronics brand tubes? I saw a NE 5998 Made in USA. Hard to find any information about the brand. Maybe fake?


This is a question that Oskari could answer - he is one of our resident experts.


----------



## gibosi

But I think it is safe to say that National Electronics was not a manufacturer. National was a reseller. So in this case, if it really is a 5998, National procured it from Chatham / Tung-Sol, put their name on it, and sold it in the market place.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> But I think it is safe to say that National Electronics was not a manufacturer. National was a reseller. So in this case, if it really is a 5998, National procured it from Chatham / Tung-Sol, put their name on it, and sold it in the market place.


There are tubes manufactured in Japan under the name National (NL) which became Panasonic later. And there also was a high quality US manufacturer National Union (NU).


----------



## Mizicke5273

I thought all 5998 tubes were made by Tung-Sol and just re-branded.  That was what I read on the forums before.  Can anyone here confirm this, so I know for myself?


----------



## mordy

Mizicke5273 said:


> I thought all 5998 tubes were made by Tung-Sol and just re-branded.  That was what I read on the forums before.  Can anyone here confirm this, so I know for myself?


I only mentioned other tube names connected to National - no connection at all to the 5998 tube. You can find the 5998 under several rebranded names such as Dumont, IBM etc,  but they were all made by Tung Sol.


----------



## Mizicke5273

mordy said:


> I only mentioned other tube names connected to National - no connection at all to the 5998 tube. You can find the 5998 under several rebranded names such as Dumont, IBM etc,  but they were all made by Tung Sol.



Yeah, I misunderstood that.  Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## gibosi

Mizicke5273 said:


> I thought all 5998 tubes were made by Tung-Sol and just re-branded.  That was what I read on the forums before.  Can anyone here confirm this, so I know for myself?



Or more accurately, Chatham was the only manufacturer of the 5998. In 1957, Tung-Sol purchased Chatham, but the 5998 continued to be manufactured in the same Chatham factory as before. So the only thing that changed was the corporate ownership.


----------



## Monsterzero

Correct me if im wrong,but if any branded 5998 has the domino plates,its golden,correct?


----------



## mordy

Monsterzero said:


> Correct me if im wrong,but if any branded 5998 has the domino plates,its golden,correct?[/QUO
> Correct


----------



## Dogmatrix

National/Panasonic are brands for western marketing of Matsushita corp Japan . Matsushita did make tubes but not 5998 or any 6as7g variant


----------



## attmci

Dogmatrix said:


> National/Panasonic are brands for western marketing of Matsu****a corp Japan . Matsu****a did make tubes but not 5998 or any 6as7g variant


????????


----------



## Dogmatrix

attmci said:


> ????????


The Headfi family friendly editor won't print Matsuchita ie the c is an s


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jun 1, 2019)

Has anyone ever laid ears on the Japanese-made 6AS7G/6080 tubes?  They seem to have been fashioned after RCA designs, but comparing photos, I have yet to come across two with the exact same construction as the RCAs.

Here are some Toshiba examples:

6080:

 

6AS7G:


Edit: I think this has been linked before, found some useful information here (may have to be translated by your browser): https://radiomann.sakura.ne.jp/HomePageVT/Audio_US_Triode.html#6080


----------



## Dogmatrix

As well as rebranding it was also common practice for manufacturers to ship completed grid and plate assemblies known as cages . These cages were then built into finished tubes locally thus avoiding import taxes on finished goods . Could be what is going on with these Japanese tubes .


----------



## mordy

Hi L0,
I think headfier Johnnysound has a pair of Japanese NEC 6080 tubes that he says sound excellent. Some of the Japanese manufacturers had close ties with European and US manufacturers but it seems to me that some of the tubes were their original ones.
If I remember correctly, National (Matsuh***ta/Panasonic) used Philips equipment, and Hitachi had a relationship with Raytheon - hence the Hit-Ray brand name.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jun 2, 2019)

Dogmatrix said:


> As well as rebranding it was also common practice for manufacturers to ship completed grid and plate assemblies known as cages . These cages were then built into finished tubes locally thus avoiding import taxes on finished goods . Could be what is going on with these Japanese tubes .



Interesting.  If I go down this road and pick up some Japanese tubes, I'll report back here.  I don't actually own any RCA 6AS7Gs or 6080s, but I can get some, for science.



mordy said:


> Hi L0,
> I think headfier Johnnysound has a pair of Japanese NEC 6080 tubes that he says sound excellent. Some of the Japanese manufacturers had close ties with European and US manufacturers but it seems to me that some of the tubes were their original ones.
> If I remember correctly, National (Matsuh***ta/Panasonic) used Philips equipment, and Hitachi had a relationship with Raytheon - hence the Hit-Ray brand name.



Thanks, Mordy, I've reached out to Johnnysound to get his 2¢, see if these are worth investing in!


----------



## Dogmatrix

mordy said:


> Hi L0,
> I think headfier Johnnysound has a pair of Japanese NEC 6080 tubes that he says sound excellent. Some of the Japanese manufacturers had close ties with European and US manufacturers but it seems to me that some of the tubes were their original ones.
> If I remember correctly, National (Matsuh***ta/Panasonic) used Philips equipment, and Hitachi had a relationship with Raytheon - hence the Hit-Ray brand name.


I have some "Ten" tubes I believe are fully Japanese they are excellent only 12au7 though


----------



## mordy

A number of US companies used Japanese tubes, including Radio Shack with their Realistic brand. Also a rebrander called Channel Master. All these tubes have Japan printed on them.
I have some nice sounding 6SN7GTB tubes from Channel Master. It is very difficult to ascertain which Japanese company made them, but by comparing pictures on Google Images I discovered that they were made by NEC (Nippon Electric Co).




The date code is straight forward. The letter is the month, and the first digit the year. F900 = June 1959.
In Germany the laws specifying where the tube was made are different, and tubes made in other countries than Germany just say Foreign. Some good sounding Siemens tubes came from Japan and were marked Foreign.
In general, my impression is that Japanese tubes are of high quality.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

I went ahead a purchased these two pictured Toshiba 6080 pairs above from a seller in Japan, it will be some time but I will post impressions here when they arrive.  I am on the lookout for some NEC branded 6AS7G/6080, since they were a Western Electric affiliate.  You don't see these Japanese tubes very much, very interested to see how they compare to their American and European counterparts.


----------



## gurubhai (Jun 3, 2019)

Toshiba 6080 is a great tube and my personal favorite among 6080/6AS7 tubes.
Sounds much better than the RCA 6080 so I am sure they aren't a rebrand.

Didn't really care for the Toshiba 6AS7 though.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

gurubhai said:


> Toshiba 6080 is a great tube and my personal favorite among 6080/6AS7 tubes.
> Sounds much better than the RCA 6080 so I am sure they aren't a rebrand.
> 
> Didn't really care for the Toshiba 6AS7 though.



Thanks gurubhai, that's good to hear.  Have you tried at all the NEC (Nippon Electric) or TEN Japanese 6080s/6AS7Gs?


----------



## gurubhai

NEC 6080 and 6520 weren't that great but not bad either. Haven't tried TEN yet.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

gurubhai said:


> NEC 6080 and 6520 weren't that great but not bad either. Haven't tried TEN yet.



Cool, thanks, I'll post impressions when I get these tubes, but it's gonna be a while!


----------



## Dogmatrix

May be difficult to find a Ten 6080 or 6as7g as I think they only made miniature tubes . 
Ten brand belonged to Kobe Kogyo Corporation founded in 1949 manufacturing and research into vacuum tubes 
Merged with Fujitsu in 1963 and Onkyo in 1967 by which time focus was shifting to transistors

Research did confirm Toshiba , NEC , Hitachi and Matsushita (National/Panasonic) all manufactured 6080 not certain about 6as7g . Don't know if they manufactured complete tubes or assembled tubes from imported components .


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Jun 3, 2019)

I have seen TEN 6AS7G, never have come across a TEN 6080 though.  Unsure of course if they are rebranded, partially assembled, etc.




Edit: found a photo of  a TEN 6080:


----------



## Dogmatrix (Jun 3, 2019)

Good find LOrdGwyn , the 6080 looks very RCA but the 6as7g is interesting the plate structure looks Russian or Chinese but the top getter is out of character so could be Japanese made .
Would be real kudos for anyone who found a Ten 6as7g they would win the internet , I have rarely seen Ten tubes sold outside Japan . On closer inspection they could both be RCA plate structures


----------



## Wes S

L0rdGwyn said:


> I have seen TEN 6AS7G, never have come across a TEN 6080 though.  Unsure of course if they are rebranded, partially assembled, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: found a photo of  a TEN 6080:


They both look like RCA, to me.


----------



## Dogmatrix

Yes I got a bit excited for a moment but they are likely just rebranded RCA unfortunately
I wonder if any of the Swedish/Scandinavian companies made 6080 or 6as7g LM Ericsson for example


----------



## L0rdGwyn

The TEN tubes very well may be RCA rebrands, all of these Japanese tubes seem to be based on the RCA construction.  I am more intrigued by the Toshiba and NEC branded tubes, which seem to have more differentiated construction.  I should be able to get some of TEN 6AS7G for a reasonable price, worst case scenario, I have myself a pair of RCA 6AS7G black plates


----------



## BearMonster (Jun 15, 2019)

Can anyone tell me anything about these 2 tubes


----------



## Skylab

The Sylvania 6AS7GA is a decent tube. They used to be pretty cheap. You can buy its derivative for $12 each NOS here:

https://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-6as7-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612

That Mullard tube sure looks to me like a rebranded Russian 6N13S. If you can show the getters in another pic I could say for sure.


----------



## mordy

Concur with Skylab. In my experience all the 6AS7GA sound the same so if you want them, just buy the least expensive brand.
The Mullard is a forgery. Here is a similar fake from a seller in Algeria with the telltale double inverted saucer getter:




$188 for a Russian 6H13C tube that you can buy for less than $20.....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-EL...529814?hash=item592a1b6d16:g:-vcAAOSwCnZc3pmg


----------



## BearMonster (Jun 16, 2019)

Skylab said:


> The Sylvania 6AS7GA is a decent tube. They used to be pretty cheap. You can buy its derivative for $12 each NOS here:
> 
> https://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-6as7-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612
> 
> That Mullard tube sure looks to me like a rebranded Russian 6N13S. If you can show the getters in another pic I could say for sure.


----------



## Skylab

@BearMonster - that picture doesn’t show the getter 

The getters in that tube are at the base of the tube.


----------



## cddc

@BearMonster - looking for 2 flying UFOs inside the base, it's the giveaway of Russian 6N13S.


----------



## BearMonster

cddc said:


> @BearMonster - looking for 2 flying UFOs inside the base, it's the giveaway of Russian 6N13S.



Thanks it does appear to be a 6n13s.


----------



## cddc (Jun 17, 2019)

BearMonster said:


> Thanks it does appear to be a 6n13s.



You are welcome!

Most 6AS7G forgeries are made from Russian 6N13S' (a.k.a 6H13C or Winged "C"). They can be relabelled as "GEC 6AS7G" or "5998" or "Mullard 6AS7G" or any 6AS7G that can be sold at premium prices. So gotta be familiar with the internal structures of 6H13C. It has 2 flying UFOs (or some people call them 2 inverted saucer getters) at the base - its most significant hallmark/giveaway.


----------



## adeadcrab

I've bought some Winged "C" 's rebranded as Haltron 6AS7G for ~$60 a pair. Always be vigilant!


----------



## mordy

adeadcrab said:


> I've bought some Winged "C" 's rebranded as Haltron 6AS7G for ~$60 a pair. Always be vigilant!


I have seen GEC 6AS7G rebranded as Haltron......


----------



## cddc

mordy said:


> I have seen GEC 6AS7G rebranded as Haltron......



Haltron is a rebrander. That's possible. If so, you are in good luck.

But more likely you will find a Winged "C" rebranded Haltron tube. 

Caveat Emptor


----------



## myphone

i have a pair of Haltron branded GEC 6080 tubes, bought from a well known tube seller.


----------



## cddc

myphone said:


> i have a pair of Haltron branded GEC 6080 tubes, bought from a well known tube seller.




The internal structure does look like a GEC 6080 to me. Enjoy!


----------



## cddc

myphone said:


> i have a pair of Haltron branded GEC 6080 tubes, bought from a well known tube seller.



I would recommend you to do what @Badas would do - use some GEC sticker to cover up the Haltron label. That would make the tube sound much better...lol


----------



## Badas (Jun 19, 2019)

cddc said:


> I would recommend you to do what @Badas would do - use some GEC sticker to cover up the Haltron label. That would make the tube sound much better...lol



Thanks for the 2-3 years ago burn. I better go and get some ointment.


----------



## cddc

Badas said:


> Thanks for the 2-3 years ago burn. I better go and get some ointment.



lol...I like your idea of lifetime tube backup and using some shining stickers.

You have finished your tube collection and not into 6AS7G tubes anymore?


----------



## myphone

cddc said:


> I would recommend you to do what @Badas would do - use some GEC sticker to cover up the Haltron label. That would make the tube sound much better...lol



Great idea. Will do some photoshop.


----------



## Badas

cddc said:


> lol...I like your idea of lifetime tube backup and using some shining stickers.
> 
> You have finished your tube collection and not into 6AS7G tubes anymore?



Agreed. I might have mis-calculated a lifetime supply. I was working on replacing every 5 years. So I purchased 80 years worth. 16 sets.

I settled on these. RCA tubes. I'm not sure if they are 6AS7G. I just can't remember anymore. 
Not many fans of them out there but for some reason I liked them.


----------



## cddc

Badas said:


> Agreed. I might have mis-calculated a lifetime supply. I was working on replacing every 5 years. So I purchased 80 years worth. 16 sets.
> 
> I settled on these. RCA tubes. I'm not sure if they are 6AS7G. I just can't remember anymore.
> Not many fans of them out there but for some reason I liked them.



Should be 6AS7GA tubes since they are not ST shaped.

Lifetime supply is actually a pretty neat idea. Stock up your preferred tubes before their prices become as ridiculous as 5998, GEC 6AS7G, WE 421A, etc.

Couple of weeks ago I was thinking about trying some 6F8G tubes, but after seeing their ridiculous prices I gave up....I would stick to my 12AU7 and 6SN7 tubes


----------



## Badas

cddc said:


> Should be 6AS7GA tubes since they are not ST shaped.
> 
> Lifetime supply is actually a pretty neat idea. Stock up your preferred tubes before their prices become as ridiculous as 5998, GEC 6AS7G, WE 421A, etc.
> 
> Couple of weeks ago I was thinking about trying some 6F8G tubes, but after seeing their ridiculous prices I gave up....I would stick to my 12AU7 and 6SN7 tubes



Try 6C8G. Basically the same as 6F8G but with more gain. Way cheaper also.


----------



## mordy

Badas said:


> Try 6C8G. Basically the same as 6F8G but with more gain. Way cheaper also.


ESRC1 has the 6C8G for $3.-


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> ESRC1 has the 6C8G for $3.-



Yip. They can be cheap. 

I purchased some beautiful Tung-Sol roundplates NIB for US$30.00 a pair. 
They sounded exactly the same as the 6F8G at $150 a pair. 

I also picked up a box of 100 RCA's 6C8G for $50.00. They sounded good as well.


----------



## cddc

Badas said:


> Try 6C8G. Basically the same as 6F8G but with more gain. Way cheaper also.


 Cool...I will see if my amp can take them. Thanks a lot!


----------



## mordy

Badas said:


> Yip. They can be cheap.
> 
> I purchased some beautiful Tung-Sol roundplates NIB for US$30.00 a pair.
> They sounded exactly the same as the 6F8G at $150 a pair.
> ...


I have several different brands of the 6F8G and the 6C8G. IMHO the National Union sound the best.


----------



## Badas

mordy said:


> I have several different brands of the 6F8G and the 6C8G. IMHO the National Union sound the best.



Yeah. I am the same. I have TSRP and NU in 6F and 6C. I put TS and NU at first equal. 

There is suttle differences between them. TSRP has a warmer mid range but the NU has the sweetest treble I have heard. Pick your poison.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Roughly what time period were the GEC 6AS7G labelled as Osram or labelled as Marconi? Are the black curved base Marconi ones older/from a different factory than the brown straight base?


----------



## gibosi

Generally, older tubes, manufactured in the late 1940's and early 1950's, are labeled Osram or Marconi, and later tubes are labeled GEC. The brown base was introduced in the early to mid 1950's, and the black base was standard before then. However, all these tubes were manufactured in the Hammersmith factory. And therefore, the label and the color of the base are not important other than as a rough indicator of the date of manufacture.

In my opinion, since the base was added after the tube itself was manufactured, the shape of the base likely corresponded to the end-user's requirements, maybe something as simple as to accommodate bottom-mounted sockets versus top-mounted sockets. Whatever, the shape of the base has absolutely no effect on how the tube sounds.


----------



## Toad_of_Toad_Hall

Is anyone aware of any 6AS7Gs or functional equivalents that were manufactured in Australia?


----------



## mordy (Jul 16, 2019)

Toad_of_Toad_Hall said:


> Is anyone aware of any 6AS7Gs or functional equivalents that were manufactured in Australia?


Everything is possible but can’t remember seeing any from AU. US, British,Russian, Chinese and Japanese; yes.
If you go to 6080 tubes there are more countries of origin.


----------



## JKDJedi

Any knowledge of these two here in the forums? Just got the Sylvania 7236 here and seems like it might match up  with the Tung Sol 7236, the latter (Tung- Sol) appears to have a higher amplification.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> Any knowledge of these two here in the forums? Just got the Sylvania 7236 here and seems like it might match up  with the Tung Sol 7236, the latter (Tung- Sol) appears to have a higher amplification.


The amplification factor is 4.8 compared to 2 for a 6080 tube. Don't know if it makes much of a difference in terms of noise - it should just sound a little louder.
If a 7236 tube is up to spec, it should have the same amplification no matter which brand.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> The amplification factor is 4.8 compared to 2 for a 6080 tube. Don't know if it makes much of a difference in terms of noise - it should just sound a little louder.
> If a 7236 tube is up to spec, it should have the same amplification no matter which brand.


Thanks, it took my Tung Sol 7236 a few weeks to "open up" so maybe the same is required for the Sylvania 7236?  i suspect that both are gonna sound more the same than different, with the Sylvania having a wider soundstage,


----------



## mordy

I only have the Tung Sol 7236, but based on what I read, the TS is better sounding than the Sylvania. As always, the sound of a tube is amp dependent, and you have to let your ears be the judge.
Most tubes seem to need 30-50 hours to burn in, but some require much more time.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> I only have the Tung Sol 7236, but based on what I read, the TS is better sounding than the Sylvania. As always, the sound of a tube is amp dependent, and you have to let your ears be the judge.
> Most tubes seem to need 30-50 hours to burn in, but some require much more time.


Yes the Tung Sol on initial listen has the tighter control in vocals and bass, and somewhat faster, the only tube that the Sylvania sounded better with was the Black Treasure...it wasn't even close. Thanks for your input, I had written a little write up for another thread then decided to can it until the Sylvania was burned in. Might not matter, the Tung Sol has its reputation for a reason.


----------



## cddc

Dvdlucena said:


> Sorry to open this thread years now... but I have the same felling.
> Paid big money for 5998 ting sol, but I’m really disappointed. To lean and bright with hd800



I find lots of people fond of 5998 use HD650 headphones.


----------



## cddc

Scutey said:


> That's a bit surprising, one thing I've never found the Tung Sol 5998 to be is lean and bright, In my system the TS is warm, but not overly so, transparent, with good detail and deep, warm bass. If they are NOS it maybe that they need a few hours burn in.



Just curious: were you using HD650 or HD800 or other headphones with the 5998?


----------



## Scutey

cddc said:


> Just curious: were you using HD650 or HD800 or other headphones with the 5998?


I was using Beyerdynamic DT1990.


----------



## cddc

Scutey said:


> I was using Beyerdynamic DT1990.



Cool, thanks a lot for the update, mate!


----------



## Scutey

cddc said:


> Cool, thanks a lot for the update, mate!


No problem!


----------



## JKDJedi

Scutey said:


> I was using Beyerdynamic DT1990.


Those are bright regardless ..no? What preamp are you pairing the 5998 with?


----------



## Scutey

JKDJedi said:


> Those are bright regardless ..no? What preamp are you pairing the 5998 with?


They are fairly bright, so I use them with a Feliks Audio Elise tube amp, this does tame the highs somewhat, whilst keeping airiness, sparkle and detail in the highs.


----------



## LoryWiv

Are AS7G's compatible as power tubes in Elise without adapter?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 25, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> Are AS7G's compatible as power tubes in Elise without adapter?


Yes! Standard tube for most. All these should work as well --- >.
5692  6AS7G 6080 5998 6N5P 6N5S ECC230 7236  CV2523 421a


----------



## LoryWiv

Great to know these are all legit. options, thanks for replying @JKDJedi !


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Great to know these are all legit. options, thanks for replying @JKDJedi !


Oops take out ECC32 out of there...that one is Driver  gonna update the post


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Oops take out ECC32 out of there...that one is Driver  gonna update the post



also 6F8G, i believe


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 25, 2019)

cddc said:


> also 6F8G, i believe


Oh God.... Lol.. copy! Just double checked them all....should be good!


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 17, 2019)

Sorry asked a question thats been already answered here..I was the one initially  asking!


----------



## Dogmatrix

I'm asking because I have a Mullard 6080 that's rebranded to Philips and curious who made their 6080WC version.[/QUOTE]

FSCM 82219 = Philips ECG North America formerly Sylvania


----------



## gibosi

Dogmatrix said:


> I'm asking because I have a Mullard 6080 that's rebranded to Philips and curious who made their 6080WC version.
> 
> FSCM 82219 = Philips ECG North America formerly Sylvania



A picture would be very helpful. Mullard did manufacture the 6080, but I don't know for sure if they manufactured the 6080WC. So it may well have been manufactured by Sylvania/Philips in the US.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 17, 2019)

gibosi said:


> A picture would be very helpful. Mullard did manufacture the 6080, but I don't know for sure if they manufactured the 6080WC. So it may well have been manufactured by Sylvania/Philips in the US.


Yeah sorry guys, I had asked the very same question here and forgot about it. Have a pair of the Sylvania Gold Brand 6080WA coming in soon and wonder if it's gonna sound the same as the  Philips 6080WC (rebranded from Sylvania..thanks for confirming guys!)   From what I know from the first time I asked here on this thread, Is that Philips bought Sylvania in the early 80's? post#4273


----------



## BearMonster

Can anyone tell me about these tubes. Are they rebranded Tung Sol 6080


----------



## L0rdGwyn

BearMonster said:


> Can anyone tell me about these tubes. Are they rebranded Tung Sol 6080



Definitely not Tung-Sol, see how it says Japan on the tube?  Japanese manufacture, looks like Toshiba.


----------



## BearMonster

L0rdGwyn said:


> Definitely not Tung-Sol, see how it says Japan on the tube?  Japanese manufacture, looks like Toshiba.



ok thanks;


----------



## JKDJedi

BearMonster said:


> Can anyone tell me about these tubes. Are they rebranded Tung Sol 6080


General Electric?  http://pax-comm.com/pa01044.htm


----------



## L0rdGwyn

JKDJedi said:


> General Electric?  http://pax-comm.com/pa01044.htm



It's a rebranded Toshiba.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 22, 2019)

Gold Brand Sylvania 6080WA.... whats the WA stand for?


----------



## mordy

The W means rugged - the Gold Brand tubes are supposed to be 10,0000 hour tubes.
The A means revision A. In general, there are four revisions re 6080 tubes: 6080, 6080WA, WB and WC . (There may be more)
IMHO the different revisions do not have any practical impact on the sound - each tube has to be judged on it's own merits.
Personal favorites are the RCA 6080, Sylvania 6080, Bendix graphite plates 6080WB and GEC 6080.
As always, the amp you are using the tubes in is very important as well as synergy with other tubes - YMMV.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> The W means rugged - the Gold Brand tubes are supposed to be 10,0000 hour tubes.
> The A means revision A. In general, there are four revisions re 6080 tubes: 6080, 6080WA, WB and WC . (There may be more)
> IMHO the different revisions do not have any practical impact on the sound - each tube has to be judged on it's own merits.
> Personal favorites are the RCA 6080, Sylvania 6080, Bendix graphite plates 6080WB and GEC 6080.
> As always, the amp you are using the tubes in is very important as well as synergy with other tubes - YMMV.


Thanks for the info, and surprised Mullard isn't in there as a favorite. With all the accolades here on this thread concerning the Mullard. And I can't wait to hear with my own ears what "musical" means with the said reviews of the Gold Brand Sylvania, 6080 seem to be the most neutral tube I use in my 6as7 slot.


----------



## mordy

The Mullards are very nice tubes. Every amp is different and the same tube may not sound the same in another amp. Presently I am using 4x6080 tubes in my amp, but not every amp has this capacity.
There are Japanese made 6080 tubes that are supposed to be very good sounding, but I have not been able to find any at reasonable prices......


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> The Mullards are very nice tubes. Every amp is different and the same tube may not sound the same in another amp. Presently I am using 4x6080 tubes in my amp, but not every amp has this capacity.
> There are Japanese made 6080 tubes that are supposed to be very good sounding, but I have not been able to find any at reasonable prices......


Yes, I'm just now understanding this about the different amps sound. My amp configuration favors high impedance cans because of the single socket design of the Darkvoice, whereas a multiple socket design of another amp can yield a different sound because of the added / minus (transconductance) of the multiple tubes incorporated into the mix by the ROLLER.  I'm wanting to upgrade to a Woo Audio amp myself but shiver at the thought of (two of everything!?)  $$$$


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 22, 2019)

wrong thread oops


----------



## Dogmatrix

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks for the info, and surprised Mullard isn't in there as a favorite. With all the accolades here on this thread concerning the Mullard. And I can't wait to hear with my own ears what "musical" means with the said reviews of the Gold Brand Sylvania, 6080 seem to be the most neutral tube I use in my 6as7 slot.


Not a big fan of the Mullard 6080 either I prefer GEC Bendix RCA (older military version) even GE five star I suspect there may be quite a bit of brand recognition going on with the Mullard rep . Also as mordy says tubes behave differently in different amps


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 24, 2019)

Asking the Supremus Gods of this thread.... for the life of me and hours of searching the net I can not find date code sheets for these Sylvania 6080 tubes, doing a little write up on these and would love to have at least a date on them, any ideas?  Always thankful for your deep wells of knowledge. Sylvania 6080WA Gold Brand made in USA KH (stamped in box) and EBE underneath


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Asking the Supremus Gods of this thread.... for the life of me and hours of searching the net I can not find date code sheets for these Sylvania 6080 tubes, doing a little write up on these and would love to have at least a date on them, any ideas?  Always thankful for your deep wells of knowledge. Sylvania 6080WA Gold Brand made in USA KH (stamped in box) and EBE underneath



To the best of my knowledge, the key to deciphering  these late two-letter Sylvania date codes has not been discovered...


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, the key to deciphering  these late two-letter Sylvania date codes has not been discovered...


One source notes that Sylvania used a five letter code - 2 letters followed by three underneath as seen on the GB 6080 tubes.
This concerns the three letter code on the tube (not the two letter code):
I have these notes re Sylvania date codes, but I cannot vouch for them. The later tubes may have a three letter date code - reading from left to right.
First letter is the month, with A being January, B February and so on.
The second letter is the year in the 1960's decade (or maybe 50's if the tube looks older). A = 1960, B = 1961 and so on (or maybe in the 1950's decade).
The third letter is a factory code. E could be the Emporium, PA plant.
EBE would then possibly mean May 1961, Emporium factory.
There is a possibility that this works.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> One source notes that Sylvania used a five letter code - 2 letters followed by three underneath as seen on the GB 6080 tubes.
> This concerns the three letter code on the tube (not the two letter code):
> I have these notes re Sylvania date codes, but I cannot vouch for them. The later tubes may have a three letter date code - reading from left to right.
> First letter is the month, with A being January, B February and so on.
> ...


I'll go with that because sylvanias factory was in Pennsylvania. Thank you!


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 7, 2019)

Just received these NOS TS 7236 pair. Sounding great in my Feliks Elise. Can anyone help me identify the year of production?




Thanks!


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Just received these NOS TS 7236 pair. Sounding great in my Feliks Elise. Can anyone help me identify the year of production?
> 
> Thanks!



6322 = 1963 week 22


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 7, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> Just received these NOS TS 7236 pair. Sounding great in my Feliks Elise. Can anyone help me identify the year of production?
> 
> Thanks!


EDIT:I think Gibs might be right..just saw a few with the different codes under Made In USA..(a search revealed this tube was used as a motor driver for early computer tape drives instead of a pass tube so it had no need for a highly elevated cathode). EIA/RETMA code is 322? (so this news is confusing because nowhere on the tube is 322 other than the date code area on my tube) ,  A great sounding tube! Some reviews call this one as the baby 5998 tube. 7236 - Amp Factor 4.8 - Transcond. 12,500 µmohs ---- 5998 - Amp Factor 5.4 - Transcond. 15,500 µmohs  I have the exact same tube, number for number all away across. But hold on...there's some numbers on top of the tube as well...could those be the actual date codes?? Very top aBOVE THE 7236 sheild, whats does your tubes read? (mine reads 6207) It appears that this top glass dating started after some period with Tung Sol. So if the RETMA code is 322 and the top glass numbers are the date.. mine would be 1962 week 07, really curious as to what your numbers read..please post.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> EDIT:I think Gibs might be right..just saw a few with the different codes under Made In USA..(a search revealed this tube was used as a motor driver for early computer tape drives instead of a pass tube so it had no need for a highly elevated cathode). EIA/RETMA code is 322? (so this news is confusing because nowhere on the tube is 322 other than the date code area on my tube) ,  A great sounding tube! Some reviews call this one as the baby 5998 tube. 7236 - Amp Factor 4.8 - Transcond. 12,500 µmohs ---- 5998 - Amp Factor 5.4 - Transcond. 15,500 µmohs  I have the exact same tube, number for number all away across. But hold on...there's some numbers on top of the tube as well...could those be the actual date codes?? Very top aBOVE THE 7236 sheild, whats does your tubes read? (mine reads 6207) It appears that this top glass dating started after some period with Tung Sol. So if the RETMA code is 322 and the top glass numbers are the date.. mine would be 1962 week 07, really curious as to what your numbers read..please post.



@JKDJedi: Top code = 6213.


----------



## gibosi

Etched date codes on top of Chatham/Tung-Sol tubes, if visible, were applied in the factory at the time of manufacture. And I would consider these the most accurate date codes. Date codes printed on the base typically correspond to the date the tube was packed and shipped out.


----------



## LoryWiv

Thank you, @gibosi , makes sense. @JKDJedi , over in the Feliks Elise thread, @OctavianH has the same top code as you!


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Thank you, @gibosi , makes sense. @JKDJedi , over in the Feliks Elise thread, @OctavianH has the same top code as you!


And I have the same bottom code as you ..small world.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> And I have the same bottom code as you ..small world.



Yes it is. For interest, what driver tube are you using with the Tung Sol?


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 7, 2019)

LoryWiv said:


> Yes it is. For interest, what driver tube are you using with the Tung Sol?


I roll a few tubes with the Tung Sol 7236, it pushes most tubes past their normal sound in a good way. Raytheon GT, Tung Sol GT-GTB,  RCA GT, Sylvania GT all sound really good here. A big favorite in the Darkvoice community.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> EDIT:I think Gibs might be right..just saw a few with the different codes under Made In USA..(a search revealed this tube was used as a motor driver for early computer tape drives instead of a pass tube so it had no need for a highly elevated cathode). EIA/RETMA code is 322? (so this news is confusing because nowhere on the tube is 322 other than the date code area on my tube) ,  A great sounding tube! Some reviews call this one as the baby 5998 tube. 7236 - Amp Factor 4.8 - Transcond. 12,500 µmohs ---- 5998 - Amp Factor 5.4 - Transcond. 15,500 µmohs  I have the exact same tube, number for number all away across. But hold on...there's some numbers on top of the tube as well...could those be the actual date codes?? Very top aBOVE THE 7236 sheild, whats does your tubes read? (mine reads 6207) It appears that this top glass dating started after some period with Tung Sol. So if the RETMA code is 322 and the top glass numbers are the date.. mine would be 1962 week 07, really curious as to what your numbers read..please post.


The Tung Sol IEA code (Electronics Industry Association) is 322, but on this tube it is just a coincidence that the date code 6322 contains the same numbers.
If I understand correctly, all Tung Sol (and maybe Chatham) tubes with long numbers, ending up with a bunch of 9s, were made for IBM (International Business Machines) for their early computers.


----------



## maketus

hi, i am new guy with tubes. i buy my first full tube amplier little bear  p7 and instatly go confused so many different names in for tubes that look the same.

 default  power tube is 6n5p are they 6080,6n13p,6h5c,6as7,6as7-g are they all compatible ?

i already buy one svetlana 6h5c, i am scared to replace 6n5p tubes that svetlana tubes, i dont wanna break the new amplifier with the wrong kind tubes


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## JKDJedi (Sep 13, 2019)

maketus said:


> hi, i am new guy with tubes. i buy my first full tube amplier little bear  p7 and instatly go confused so many different names in for tubes that look the same.
> 
> default  power tube is 6n5p are they 6080,6n13p,6h5c,6as7,6as7-g are they all compatible ?
> 
> i already buy one svetlana 6h5c, i am scared to replace 6n5p tubes that svetlana tubes, i dont wanna break the new amplifier with the wrong kind tubes


According to the specs, your good with 6080 tubes, I almost suspect if 6080 is good then the rest mentioned here should be good as well (6AS7G, 7236, 5998, etc). Seems to be an OTL amp so high Impedence headphones would be a plus.


----------



## mordy

maketus said:


> hi, i am new guy with tubes. i buy my first full tube amplier little bear  p7 and instatly go confused so many different names in for tubes that look the same.
> 
> default  power tube is 6n5p are they 6080,6n13p,6h5c,6as7,6as7-g are they all compatible ?
> 
> i already buy one svetlana 6h5c, i am scared to replace 6n5p tubes that svetlana tubes, i dont wanna break the new amplifier with the wrong kind tubes


Hi maketus,
All the tubes you list should be fully compatible. Just like there are different languages there are different designation systems for the same tube in different countries. The problem with Russian tubes is that they are marked in the Cyrillian alphabet, and when translated into English, it can come out differently. As an example, 6N13P could also read 6H13C. 
Another problem is that the 6N5P could be the old style big ST (shoulder type) tube, or another smaller tube with the exact same designation. Just look at the picture that it looks like the large ones:





and NOT like this:




An excellent source for finding compatible tubes is Radiomuseum. Just go to Google, type in Radiomuseum and the tube designation, and you will find all the information that you need:
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6as7g.html
All the the different tubes you see here are compatible except for the ones that say Heater Different. In this case those tubes are the same tube but made for 26.5V instead of 6.3V. Sometimes different manufacturers will use a different pin configuration than standard (pin-out) and that is something else to look out for.


----------



## maketus

thanks for the answer. radiomuseum  looks is a great place to check compatibility. I'm not scared anymore start using 6h5c otk svetlana tube


----------



## JKDJedi

quick question, getting a little "interference" on one of my 6as7g tubes, just on the left channel, at first I thought it was my headphone cable but narrowed it down to the said tube. it comes and goes, so you guys think a good pin cleaning is needed or this thing is slowly going by bye??


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> quick question, getting a little "interference" on one of my 6as7g tubes, just on the left channel, at first I thought it was my headphone cable but narrowed it down to the said tube. it comes and goes, so you guys think a good pin cleaning is needed or this thing is slowly going by bye??



Replace the suspicious with a 6AS7G tube known to be good, if the problem is gone, then you're certain that the problem locates in the suspicious tube instead of your headphones or router or grounding. 

Cleanse the pins with sandpaper or knife, it's the only way I can think of. If the problem persists, you might say bye-bye to the tube.


----------



## cddc

Wait, if cleansing the pins does not solve the problem, you can try reflowing the solder joints by heating up the pins with a soldering ion - be careful not to burn the plastic tube base thou.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> quick question, getting a little "interference" on one of my 6as7g tubes, just on the left channel, at first I thought it was my headphone cable but narrowed it down to the said tube. it comes and goes, so you guys think a good pin cleaning is needed or this thing is slowly going by bye??


These things happen. First, try to change the positions if your amp uses two tubes. If only one, perhaps you have a spare tube to compare with. Take a little knife or similar (scissors blade etc - does not to have to be sharp) and gently scrape the pins working your way around. The noise may also come from other tubes you are using at the same time - try to change them.
Normally tubes last along time - don't think that the tube is giving out.
Another thing to look out for is electrical interference from portable phones etc.
I have had 6AS7 type tubes that make noise in one amp and the very same tube is quiet in another amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

you know, if I didn't know any better, I'd swear the Sylvania 6080 and the Sylvania 7236 were the same tube! I'm looking at both of them and they're almost carbon copy.  o.O


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> you know, if I didn't know any better, I'd swear the Sylvania 6080 and the Sylvania 7236 were the same tube! I'm looking at both of them and they're almost carbon copy.  o.O



Really...I'm quite surprised to hear that. I think Sylvania 7236 should look like Sylvania 6AS7GA instead of Slyvania 6080.

Do Sylvania 6080 and Sylvania 7236 sound the same in your DV336?


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 21, 2019)

cddc said:


> Really...I'm quite surprised to hear that. I think Sylvania 7236 should look like Sylvania 6AS7GA instead of Slyvania 6080.
> 
> Do Sylvania 6080 and Sylvania 7236 sound the same in your DV336?


They seem to sound the same, gonna swap them out again tomorrow morning and post pics of the tubes... I did an eBay search and this in the discription...they are the last of the finest sounding 6080 type... that was after I realized the resemblance, then after reading that...you see...I'm not the only one!!
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/272008428390


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## cddc (Sep 21, 2019)

wait to see pics


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 21, 2019)

cddc said:


> wait to see pics


Ok these don't sound the same but are really close, vocals and headroom larger on the 7236,  (note, never pull a hot tube out of it's socket, did it again! ouch!) Last night I noted the similarity in build with these two, and this morning I'm noting the differences, The 6080 I have is WA (6080WA) so the micas are thicker but same shape and spacing as the 7236 tube, they both have the nice gold posts (between the flat plates) they both have double getters up top, same plates on both (the 7236 has a fifth plate dead center) The base a little taller on the 7236 but you can easily see the build of the insides carbon copy in spacing when side by side. It's like they just tweaked a few things on the 6080 and said hey check out our 7236! (6080 tube is 1961 vs 7236 tube 1963) So would you guys think these were the same tube or just me??


----------



## cddc

Nice pics!

I agree with you. The 2 look pretty much the same.

Nice tweaks from Sylvania.......just like the Gold Brand.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> Ok these don't sound the same but are really close, vocals and headroom larger on the 7236,  (note, never pull a hot tube out of it's socket, did it again! ouch!) Last night I noted the similarity in build with these two, and this morning I'm noting the differences, The 6080 I have is WA (6080WA) so the micas are thicker but same shape and spacing as the 7236 tube, they both have the nice gold posts (between the flat plates) they both have double getters up top, same plates on both (the 7236 has a fifth plate dead center) The base a little taller on the 7236 but you can easily see the build of the insides carbon copy in spacing when side by side. It's like they just tweaked a few things on the 6080 and said hey check out our 7236! (6080 tube is 1961 vs 7236 tube 1963) So would you guys think these were the same tube or just me??


Looking at the spec sheets the tubes have different electrical characteristics. They may look the same, but they are not identical.
Don't know if it helps, but you can have two cars that look exactly the same, but one has a different engine or different components inside.
Many sellers list many different similar designations after listing the tube they sell. This is just a ploy to attract more searches.
Nobody will say that Western Electric 421A or Tung Sol 5998 are the same as a Sylvania 7236, but they are in the same family. The WE may sell for $400, and the TS for $150 whereas you could pick up a Syl 7236 for $20....

Re changing tubes, I would wait until the sounds ceases after shutting it off. The capacitors in the amp will keep it playing even after shutting the power off for a little while. Then use a small towel or similar so as not to burn your fingers-some tubes, especially the 2.5A tubes get very hot.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> Looking at the spec sheets the tubes have different electrical characteristics. They may look the same, but they are not identical.
> Don't know if it helps, but you can have two cars that look exactly the same, but one has a different engine or different components inside.
> Many sellers list many different similar designations after listing the tube they sell. This is just a ploy to attract more searches.
> Nobody will say that Western Electric 421A or Tung Sol 5998 are the same as a Sylvania 7236, but they are in the same family. The WE may sell for $400, and the TS for $150 whereas you could pick up a Syl 7236 for $20....
> ...


Makes sense, I didn't even bother checking the specs. And yeah in my haste rolling these guys I burned my finger and when I did the quick switch a roo....a loud PoP happened..scar d the hell out of me, I thought I blew my headphones... All is good though, just need to "slow my roll"


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> Makes sense, I didn't even bother checking the specs. And yeah in my haste rolling these guys I burned my finger and when I did the quick switch a roo....a loud PoP happened..scar d the hell out of me, I thought I blew my headphones... All is good though, just need to "slow my roll"





JKDJedi said:


> Makes sense, I didn't even bother checking the specs. And yeah in my haste rolling these guys I burned my finger and when I did the quick switch a roo....a loud PoP happened..scar d the hell out of me, I thought I blew my headphones... All is good though, just need to "slow my roll"


Another thing learned - any time you change a tube, plug in a sacrificial inexpensive set of headphones first to check out that you don't have any unwanted pops and crackles. If you have good headphones, a blown driver can be expensive....
Some people even wait five minutes before they plug in the phones......


----------



## cddc

mordy said:


> Another thing learned - any time you change a tube, plug in a sacrificial inexpensive set of headphones first to check out that you don't have any unwanted pops and crackles. If you have good headphones, a blown driver can be expensive....
> Some people even wait five minutes before they plug in the phones......



Indeed, tubes can be dangerous. Tube arcing can blow headphones. So gotta be careful with new tubes.

I know most tubes can last a long time, but eventually all tubes will give out. 

I personally haven't experienced any tube failure so far, but I am curious to know what will happen when a tube dies - whether it is going to be supernova (i.e. arcing all over and blow headphones), or it will just wither away slowly and peacefully with no harms to headphones?


----------



## mordy

Funny, but I have not had any tubes die on me, except those that I dropped on the floor - three-four tubes over the years. And I discovered that Russian small octal tubes have very strong glass. 
A couple tubes developed a loss of vacuum, easily identified by the silver getter flash turning white, but no tube gave out while using it.
I would imagine that most tubes would sound less loud when nearing their life span and slowly stop functioning; or just suddenly stop working.....
The arcing seems to happen mainly at start-up, but I may be wrong....


----------



## Slade01

The only tubes I've had die on me were the shuguang stock tubes 6sn7/6n8p that came with the darkvoice. I had two of them in the beginning.  The first one was during when I was listening...it did give a large popping sound to my earphones as I saw a spark in the tube much like a lightbulb going out.  The other time with the second tube and turning it on...another spark and smoke in the tube.  Fortunately it did not blow my cans or anything!


----------



## cddc (Sep 22, 2019)

Cool, thanks a lot for sharing your experiences!

It seems to be an important topic that has not been widely discussed here as far as I can remember. I think nobody wants their expensive cans or more importantly their eardrums be blown away.

Four scenarios when a tube dies:

1. A tube that slowly and peacefully stops working (sounds weaker and weaker until someday completely inaudible) has a happy ending. Everybody likes it, I believe.

2. A tube that suddenly but peacefully stops working by either losing vacuum or breaking filament also has a good ending.

3. A tube that suddenly dies and gives out some spark (like lightbulbs do when giving out as per
*Slade01*) which leads to some loud popping sound is not so good but still acceptable, so long as it does not hurt headphones or eardrums.

4. A tube that dies violently (going supernova, arcing all over like a light show - see YouTube clips below) and blows headphones/eardrums/amps is definitely unacceptable. Worst case scenario! Should cut off the power supply right away!







As tubes normally last pretty long, I think lots of folks here probably haven't experienced a tube failure. So it would be helpful if folks can share their own stories on tube failures here so that others can learn from it and take necessary actions to protect their headphones/eardrums/amps.


----------



## mordy

Certain tubes may be more prone to arcing - there are people who refuse to use the Tung Sol 5998 for this reason.
As stated before, always let the tube warm up a little, and then check for unwanted pops with a pair of inexpensive headphones before you plug in your good ones.
Even if there is nothing wrong with the tubes, it could happen that the tube was not seated correctly in the socket. This happens more frequently when you use adapters.


----------



## Slade01

Got a question for you guys -- I've had a Tung Sol 7236 and JAN RCA 6AS7G which I have only used for an hour each in the past (had worked flawlessly) but have been shelved for some time.  I decided today to put them in to find that they are also causing popping cracking sounds.  Pins are cleans, and they were both seated properly.  Is there any chance somehow that some kind of burn in time might help eliminate this problem, or am I extremely unlucky on buying power tubes off ebay (e.g. they are also both going bad or dying)?  It's not my amp (darkvoice) since I still have a 6H13C working like a rockstar right now no issues.   Thanks.


----------



## Slade01 (Oct 3, 2019)

Slade01 said:


> Got a question for you guys -- I've had a Tung Sol 7236 and JAN RCA 6AS7G which I have only used for an hour each in the past (had worked flawlessly) but have been shelved for some time.  I decided today to put them in to find that they are also causing popping cracking sounds.  Pins are cleans, and they were both seated properly.  Is there any chance somehow that some kind of burn in time might help eliminate this problem, or am I extremely unlucky on buying power tubes off ebay (e.g. they are also both going bad or dying)?  It's not my amp (darkvoice) since I still have a 6H13C working like a rockstar right now no issues.   Thanks.



Well long story short, I left my 6AS7G in for a few hours that was cracking and popping and it seems to be back to normal.   So maybe it was a hiccup?  Not sure now if tubes are like cars, you gotta run them every once in a while?  I just want to avoid a heart(break) attack with blowing my headphones...

...and of course as soon as i post this, its starts cracking/popping again.  Jinxed it!  Damn it.


----------



## Slade01

Question - I'm looking into 6080 tubes, and came across a Raytheon CK 6080.  Does anyone know what the "CK" designation is for?  Is it somehow different than regular 6080s?


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Question - I'm looking into 6080 tubes, and came across a Raytheon CK 6080.  Does anyone know what the "CK" designation is for?  Is it somehow different than regular 6080s?




So it is the Raytheon Calvin Klein edition version, I guess.......just kidding

Most Raytheon 6080 tubes I've seen are just rebranded RCA 6080's

The more important thing is to check its internal structure, you can check if it is a RCA 6080

CK might be the manufacturing plant code or date code, but that's just my guess. I'll let gurus here answer the question


----------



## cddc (Oct 4, 2019)

I'm now inclined to think CK is a date code.

If you count from A all the way to Z...some dating system I've seen works this way

K is the 11th, which means the tube was manufactured in November.

C could means 1943 or 1953 or 1963

So CK means the tube was manufactured in November 1943/1953/1963.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Question - I'm looking into 6080 tubes, and came across a Raytheon CK 6080.  Does anyone know what the "CK" designation is for?  Is it somehow different than regular 6080s?




All I know about 6080 is that it has the standard non-suffix version and WA / WB / WC revisions. 

CK is definitely not a revision, most likely it is a date code meaning November 1943/1953/1963 vintage.


----------



## leftside (Oct 4, 2019)

"Raytheon had started transistor production in 1952 using the proprietary “CK” identification sequence and then began to transition to the more standard “2N” numbering sequence by the mid-1950s."
http://semiconductormuseum.com/Phot...n_Historic_Germanium_Computer_Transistors.pdf

Perhaps it was the same for their tubes?


----------



## cddc (Oct 5, 2019)

LOL....I double it.

Most Raytheon 6080's I've seen look exactly the same as RCA 6080's, you know, with 2 black shielding skirts above the top mica. I doubt Raytheon ever made a 6080 by itself.


----------



## gibosi

CK is not a date code. Raytheon used these two letters as a prefix to distinguish their tubes from those of other companies. It was a marketing gimmick.

And as cddc suggests, most "CK6080" were actually made by RCA.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Question - I'm looking into 6080 tubes, and came across a Raytheon CK 6080.  Does anyone know what the "CK" designation is for?  Is it somehow different than regular 6080s?




So here comes the official conclusion. Ken is one of the most knowledgeable tube gurus here.


----------



## Slade01

gibosi said:


> CK is not a date code. Raytheon used these two letters as a prefix to distinguish their tubes from those of other companies. It was a marketing gimmick.
> 
> And as cddc suggests, most "CK6080" were actually made by RCA.



Thank you @gibosi and @leftside for confirming this.  Tube identification is confusing enough!  

CDDC...good to know as well that these are rebranded RCAs.


----------



## mordy

Slade01 said:


> Thank you @gibosi and @leftside for confirming this.  Tube identification is confusing enough!
> 
> CDDC...good to know as well that these are rebranded RCAs.


The RCA 6080 are warm, good sounding tubes. Very good mid bass. Usually the RCA branded ones sell for less than the rebranded Raytheon.
You should be able to get a pair of RCAs for less than $20 shipped and even less.


----------



## Slade01

mordy said:


> The RCA 6080 are warm, good sounding tubes. Very good mid bass. Usually the RCA branded ones sell for less than the rebranded Raytheon.
> You should be able to get a pair of RCAs for less than $20 shipped and even less.



Thank you for that.  I was not - and have not been a fan of the 6080 tube for some time now, since trying but being sorely disappointed with my first 6080 -- the JAN Sylvania 6080WB, which just did not sound good no matter what tube I paired with it at the time.  Since getting rid of one of my RCA 6AS7s (going bad),  i've decided for kicks to give the 6080 another shot, and figure I just have to find the right synergy that works.  I've never considered the RCA 6080 as users within the (darkvoice tube rolling) threads usually favor other power tubes over the RCA 6080 probably 8 out of 10 times. Then again, I have loved the RCA 6AS7G and 6SN7 Gray Glass as well as the 6F8G for what it adds to warmth and body musically.  So good enough for me to give it a go.  Thanks again!


----------



## JKDJedi

Would you guys agree with this list? I found it interesting. He reviewed a dozen tubes and listed them from The BEst down to 16th ALL TIME GREATS. 

I.a) GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
I.b) Western Electric 421A
I.c) GEC Straight Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523

II.a.i) Tung Sol 5998
II.a.ii) Tung Sol 421A
II.a.iii) Cetron/Tung Sol 7236
II.b.i) Bendix 6080WB with slotted graphite cross columns
II.b.ii) Bendix 6080WB with solid graphite cross columns
II.b.iii) Bendix 6080WB with solid graphite columns
II.c) Bendix 6080WB
II.d) Mullard (Telefunken/Valvo/GEC) 6080WA CV2984
II.e) Sylvania 7236

III.a) Sylvania Gold Brand 6080
III.b) Tung Sol Chatham 6AS7G
III.c) RCA 6AS7G
III.d) Tung Sol 6080 or 6080WA

Tubes not included in this review:
6H13/ECC230 (Various labels: Philips/Amperex/Svetlana/Winged-C)
5998A
6AS7GA
Sylvania 6AS7G
Any other 6080WA/WB/WC variant not listed

http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> I.a) GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
> I.b) Western Electric 421A
> I.c) GEC Straight Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523



The shape of the base, straight or curved, has absolutely no affect on the sound of the tube.



JKDJedi said:


> II.d) Mullard (Telefunken/Valvo/GEC) 6080WA CV2984



Telefunken, Mullard and GEC all made this tube. They are not the same and should not be ranked the same. However, it is true that Valvo never manufactured this tube and it is common to see Mullard-made 6080 with the Valvo brand.

And finally, it is best to take rankings with a big grain of salt. There are simply too many variables and almost any tube can sound great in the right system.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> The shape of the base, straight or curved, has absolutely no affect on the sound of the tube.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Curved base does have that it factor going for it... And yes, take into account the system this list was made off of. I have a Philips 6080 that's Mullard made, heard of those?


----------



## gibosi

> Curved base does have that it factor going for it...

I don't understand this? Again, the shape of the base is meaningless. Typically bases were installed just prior to packing and shipping to suit the customer.

Both Mullard and Valvo were wholly owned Philips subsidiaries and so you will see the Mullard 6080 with Valvo and Philips branding.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> > Curved base does have that it factor going for it...
> 
> I don't understand this? Again, the shape of the base is meaningless. Typically bases were installed just prior to packing and shipping to suit the customer.
> 
> Both Mullard and Valvo were wholly owned Philips subsidiaries and so you will see the Mullard 6080 with Valvo and Philips branding.


Sexy!


gibosi said:


> > Curved base does have that it factor going for it...
> 
> I don't understand this? Again, the shape of the base is meaningless. Typically bases were installed just prior to packing and shipping to suit the customer.
> 
> Both Mullard and Valvo were wholly owned Philips subsidiaries and so you will see the Mullard 6080 with Valvo and Philips branding.


Interesting! Philips owned Mullard!? I meant the curved base adds to the sex appeal of that perticular tube. And good to know straight or curved... still the same tube. Thanks


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Interesting! Philips owned Mullard!? I meant the curved base adds to the sex appeal of that perticular tube. And good to know straight or curved... still the same tube. Thanks



Oh yes, many consider the curved base more "sexy" and the prices reflect this. But again, it is of no sonic significance.

At its peak, Philips was a large conglomerate based in Holland, with wholly owned subsidiaries all over Europe, and elsewhere. Collectively, it was the largest manufacturer of vacuum tubes in Europe with the most advanced research facilities. Its subsidiaries and brands included Mullard, Valvo, La Radiotechnique, Dario, Amperex, Pope, M.B.L.E. (Bruxelles - Mazda), WIRAG, Loewe Opta and a number of others.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Oh yes, many consider the curved base more "sexy" and the prices reflect this. But again, it is of no sonic significance.
> 
> At its peak, Philips was a large conglomerate based in Holland, with wholly owned subsidiaries all over Europe, and elsewhere. Collectively, it was the largest manufacturer of vacuum tubes in Europe with the most advanced research facilities. Its subsidiaries and brands included Mullard, Valvo, La Radiotechnique, Dario, Amperex, Pope, M.B.L.E. (Bruxelles - Mazda), WIRAG, Loewe Opta and a number of others.


Thanks for the info, I was thinking the Philips I had was not a true example or representative of the Mullard 6080 sound..and now with this news...and I almost sold that tube! Glad I held on to it. I have to let you guys know I copy and paste all this info you guys generously share with us to my personal library.


----------



## gibosi

Well in the 1970's Philips got out of the vacuum tube manufacturing business and purchased Sylvania. So the newer Philips 6080 are actually Sylvania.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> > Curved base does have that it factor going for it...
> 
> I don't understand this? Again, the shape of the base is meaningless. Typically bases were installed just prior to packing and shipping to suit the customer.
> 
> Both Mullard and Valvo were wholly owned Philips subsidiaries and so you will see the Mullard 6080 with Valvo and Philips branding.




Hi Ken, just curious to know how tube bases are installed?

My guess is that the glass bottle of tube comes with leads, and the base comes with hollow pins, so they stick leads into hollow pins and filled the gap with solder to connect leads and pins, at the same time they apply some glue between glass bottle and base to make sure they're bonded together, is that correct?


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> Hi Ken, just curious to know how tube bases are installed?
> 
> My guess is that the glass bottle of tube comes with leads, and the base comes with hollow pins, so they stick leads into hollow pins and filled the gap with solder to connect leads and pins, at the same time they apply some glue between glass bottle and base to make sure they're bonded together, is that correct?



You got it!


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 8, 2019)

gibosi said:


> Well in the 1970's Philips got out of the vacuum tube manufacturing business and purchased Sylvania. So the newer Philips 6080 are actually Sylvania.


I have one of them too...lol, the prior has the Mullard markings purchased imported from Europe. I'll try to find pics of it ...

Made in Mullard Mitcham tube plant, and codes are clearly visible on 2nd photo A1J R1G.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> You got it!



Thank you very much Sir for the confirmation!

Then it poses a problem for people who want to replace the base...you gotta have 8 soldering ions to heat up the 8 pins of 6080 simultaneously if you want to take the base off...


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Thank you very much Sir for the confirmation!
> 
> Then it poses a problem for people who want to replace the base...you gotta have 8 soldering ions to heat up the 8 pins of 6080 simultaneously if you want to take the base off...


Your a riot CDDC


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Your a riot CDDC



  ...BTW, your Phillip looks like a Sylvania 6080


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> Thank you very much Sir for the confirmation!
> 
> Then it poses a problem for people who want to replace the base...you gotta have 8 soldering ions to heat up the 8 pins of 6080 simultaneously if you want to take the base off...



Or just use a hack saw to cut the base into sections and then you can unsolder the pins one by one. 

But putting on a new base might require 8 soldering irons. lol


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> ...BTW, your Phillip looks like a Sylvania 6080


You would know


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> Or just use a hack saw to cut the base into sections and then you can unsolder the pins one by one.
> 
> But putting on a new base might require 8 soldering irons. lol




Great idea!!!


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> You would know



No...I'm just kidding...upon further examination I find it could be a genuine Mullard 6080, as the top mica comes with teeth (where Syl 6080 has round top mica w/o teeth)


----------



## JamieMcC

JKDJedi said:


> Would you guys agree with this list? I found it interesting. He reviewed a dozen tubes and listed them from The BEst down to 16th ALL TIME GREATS.
> 
> I.a) GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
> I.b) Western Electric 421A
> ...




Having tried all the top tier ones in a modified Crack (the amplifier used to evaluate the tubes) the review has done a very good job of describing the different characteristics its a tough thing to do and put on paper.

I have the GEC 6as7g curved and straight base tubes and would chose the curved base as a favourite  every time. The tube was originally produced by Marconi with the round base there are also some differences in getter construction on the earlier tubes which may account for slightly different sonics this may not have been noticed when comparing straight vs rounded base who knows I am sure while the plates and structure may have had slight differences the chemical recipes used for coating plates would most likely have changed for one reason or another over the years of prodution.

Plate structure of the GEC 6asg and 6080 is the same they were both manufactured on the same assembly line but they do have different getters and do have their own unique sonics so small differences in construction do have a noticeable impact in sonics.

This brings me on to the 5998 so far I have owned at least six 5998 tubes that had differing internal construction from each other which is not surprising as the first tubes were  produces in the 50's and last in the 70's so I believe.  Personally I definitely have a preference for the early 50's clear top 5998 above later produced WE421a's. But we all hear thing differently and probably no two Bottlehead Cracks are the same due to modding or the type and brand of driver tube used in front there is just a myriad of combinations possible..


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 8, 2019)

cddc said:


> No...I'm just kidding...upon further examination I find it could be a genuine Mullard 6080, as the top mica comes with teeth (where Syl 6080 has round top mica w/o teeth)


I got mine for A LOT less than what they're going for now. https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...-plates-tubes-rebranded-Philips-/261387354902
Although this might be a nice buy here---> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/273999289032


----------



## DenverW

Anyone had experience with the different types of Sylvania 6080?  Wa/wb/wc and the gold brand?  I’m curious if there is much of a sonic difference between them.  There are some real mixed reviews on the 6080, some people love it and some say it’s a muddy mess.  Wondering if it’s the different iterations?


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Anyone had experience with the different types of Sylvania 6080?  Wa/wb/wc and the gold brand?  I’m curious if there is much of a sonic difference between them.  There are some real mixed reviews on the 6080, some people love it and some say it’s a muddy mess.  Wondering if it’s the different iterations?


Hard to say, I have the Sylvania Gold Brand 6080WA and a Mullard made Philips 6080, both phenomenal and not anything close to this "muddy" sound. Some tubes mesh really well with 6080, 7N7 for example. It's more of a neutral sounding tube with emphasis in vocals, although the Gold Brand Sylvania had been described as a musical tube. Thinking it has something to do with the slight warm tone to it. What amp are you using? And what preamp tubes do you have now?


----------



## mordy

Slade01 said:


> Thank you for that.  I was not - and have not been a fan of the 6080 tube for some time now, since trying but being sorely disappointed with my first 6080 -- the JAN Sylvania 6080WB, which just did not sound good no matter what tube I paired with it at the time.  Since getting rid of one of my RCA 6AS7s (going bad),  i've decided for kicks to give the 6080 another shot, and figure I just have to find the right synergy that works.  I've never considered the RCA 6080 as users within the (darkvoice tube rolling) threads usually favor other power tubes over the RCA 6080 probably 8 out of 10 times. Then again, I have loved the RCA 6AS7G and 6SN7 Gray Glass as well as the 6F8G for what it adds to warmth and body musically.  So good enough for me to give it a go.  Thanks again!


Hi S01,
One thing I have learnt is that the same tube sounds different in different amps. If the majority of owners of a specific amp prefer a specific tube it is a good bet that it will work for you.
Since you like the RCA 6AS7G, why don’t you get a replacement? Usually they are inexpensive and you only need one.


----------



## mordy (Oct 23, 2019)

I have a number of different Sylvania 6080 tubes. Some of the later production are branded Philips and even Mullard! (Sylvania/Philips tubes branded Mullard could cost ten times more!)
One giveaway that it is a Sylvania tube is a grey Bakelite bottom of the metal encased socket.
The Gold brand was supposed to be 10,000 hour tubes but I don’t think that has any bearing on how it sounds.
In general I preferred the older tubes from the late 50’s early 60’s.
For recommendations you would have to consider the synergy with other tubes in the amp you are using.


----------



## DenverW

Here is a list of tubes that I’m using either with my Darkvoice or bottlehead crack.  I’m still looking to try some more Sylvania such as the 6080 or 6sn7w.  I’m ALWAYS open to suggestions from everyone .

Power tubes

Tung sol 7236 - go to power tube

Tung sol 6080

Chatham 5998

RCA 6AS7G

Mullard 6080




Input tubes

Westinghouse 6SN7GTA - surprised how much I like this one.

JJ ECC802S

Phillips E80cc gold pin

RCA 12bh7a

Tung sol 12bh7a

Tungsram e80cc

Raytheon 6F8G smoked glass

Ken rad vt-231

Tung sol mouse ears 6sn7gt

RCA VT-231

CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT

Sylvania 6sn7gt 1952


----------



## Slade01

mordy said:


> Hi S01,
> One thing I have learnt is that the same tube sounds different in different amps. If the majority of owners of a specific amp prefer a specific tube it is a good bet that it will work for you.
> Since you like the RCA 6AS7G, why don’t you get a replacement? Usually they are inexpensive and you only need one.



No doubt.  As far as 6080 tubes go, I have found solace with tung sol/chatham 6080WA.


----------



## Slade01

DenverW said:


> Anyone had experience with the different types of Sylvania 6080?  Wa/wb/wc and the gold brand?  I’m curious if there is much of a sonic difference between them.  There are some real mixed reviews on the 6080, some people love it and some say it’s a muddy mess.  Wondering if it’s the different iterations?



I am no fan of the Sylvania JAN 6080WB this tube to me was a muddy bloated mess (at least in a dark voice amp).  I do have Chatham 6080WA which sound great.  For Sylvania, sonic wise it seems to be consensus that the 6080 Gold Brand is the best of the bunch.  I have also read that in general, the older the 6080 is - better it sounds.  Meaning as it goes through the variants - the SQ goes down.  Not sure how true it is, and I only have experience with two tubes.  If that is truly the case, the cut off for me personally is at WA variant, because the WB made me hate 6080.  lol.  

If youre looking for a Sylvania 6080, stick with the gold brand version and older the better per @JKDJedi and @mordy.


----------



## JKDJedi

DenverW said:


> Here is a list of tubes that I’m using either with my Darkvoice or bottlehead crack.  I’m still looking to try some more Sylvania such as the 6080 or 6sn7w.  I’m ALWAYS open to suggestions from everyone .
> 
> Power tubes
> 
> ...


Nice collection there, and yeah I was surprised by them Westinghouses the same. The Sylvania you want is the Gold Brand. If you want something Sylvania made that's laidback, one of them newer Philips 6080 tubes (with the grey bottom, thanks @mordy ) are nice and don't cost much at all.


----------



## DenverW

JKDJedi said:


> I got mine for A LOT less than what they're going for now. https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...-plates-tubes-rebranded-Philips-/261387354902
> Although this might be a nice buy here---> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/273999289032



This might be worth a look too, seems to be the Mullard factory codes?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/one-pair-v...274585?hash=item3b2ffe7099:g:PZ8AAOSwaXpb3hUu


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2019)

DenverW said:


> This might be worth a look too, seems to be the Mullard factory codes?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/one-pair-v...274585?hash=item3b2ffe7099:g:PZ8AAOSwaXpb3hUu


First link has same factory codes... Discription..

"They are branded Philips and they come in original Philips boxes + wrapped in paper. They are made in Mullard Mitcham tube plant, and codes are clearly visible on 2nd photo A1J R1G".

The exact same tube In my possession. Brown base....not grey.


----------



## mordy

Slade01 said:


> No doubt.  As far as 6080 tubes go, I have found solace with tung sol/chatham 6080WA.


Hi S01,
I have pair of the Chatham 6080. What I noticed about them was that they have a very punchy bass, but in my setups I could not find the right synergy. Just goes to show that the tubes of choice have to be tailored to the amp you are using. 
Part of the fun of tube rolling is finding the right combination that works for you and suits your taste. For me, I also enjoy finding the tubes without paying through the nose. Bought the Chathams from some housewife for very little. After I payed her, she sent an email calling me brave for buying an untested pair. I figured that if someone had been saving saving these tubes for over 50 years they probably are good, and they were.....


----------



## attmci

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-421A-5998-Pair-Vacuum-Tubes/184100629052

Used 421A/5998. New should be close to 20000 micromhos.


----------



## cddc

Krit said:


> These are 6as7g unmark base with copper pin. Are these possibly Chantham/Tungsol type? If not who is the maker of the tube? Many thanks for the clarification



I think these are GE 6AS7G tubes.

I was checking on some GE 6AS7G tubes recently, and noticed some small differences they have against TungSol/Chatham 6AS7G tubes - mainly the 2 spikes on each plate are much shorter. The 2 spikes on GE only extend 1/4 of the plate height while on TungSol/Chatham they extend almost 1/2 of the plate height.

I understand a popular conclusion here is that only 2 manufacturers in the US made 6AS7G tubes, mainly RCA and TungSol/Chatham. But I suspect a possible 3rd US 6AS7G manufacturer due to the small difference mentioned above.


----------



## mordy

To the best of my knowledge the GE tubes were made by RCA.
Head fier gibosi would have the information.


----------



## gibosi (Dec 30, 2019)

Well, to my eyes these look like Chatham / Tung-Sol. As to small differences visible to the eye, I think it is important to remember that the 6AS7G was manufactured beginning in the late 1940's through at least the late 1960's. And with the development of new processes and materials plus feedback from the field, the internal construction inevitably changed over the years.

GE was a major player in the vacuum tube industry after WWII. And I suspect that if they did in fact manufacture the 6AS7G we would see lots of them on eBay. Rather, it appears that GE decided to introduce the 6AS7GA in the early 1950's. And I have seen nothing to suggest that there was a third US manufacturer of the 6AS7G.


----------



## cddc (Dec 30, 2019)

Thanks a lot @mordy and @gibosi

Indeed most GE 6AS7G’s I have seen are rebranded RCA 6AS7G’s - those with some black skirts under the bottom mica.

The ones I quoted look exactly the same as the few GE 6AS7G’s that come with TungSol/Chatham style innards. However, they are some small differences. TungSol 6AS7G’s normally have some small silver colour bands at the top and bottom of plates. Chatham 6AS7G sometimes do not have these sliver color bands on plates, but the 2 spikes on each plate extend much longer than the ones on GE 6AS7G’s (1/2 vs 1/4).

It’s very likely, as @gibosi suggested, GE sourced their 6AS7G tubes from RCA and TungSol/Chatham and put a GE label on them. Also GE might send some special requests/specs on 6AS7G to TungSol/Chatham, which can partially explain the difference in spike length. Or GE did indeed manufacture some 6AS7G tubes, but not in large quantities, then quickly turned their 6AS7G production lines into 6AS7GA lines (not very likely, but possible)

I think the ultimate test is to hear them in an amp and compare the sound signature. TungSol/Chatham 6AS7G’s are very good 6AS7G/6080 tubes, but not up to the top tier, IMHO. I have already got 2 TS/Chatham 6AS7G tubes, so not so eager to grab a GE 6AS7G to compare. Hopefully someone with both can chime in.


----------



## cddc

abvolt said:


> The 5998's never come out of my wa22, when I owned a wa7/tp the same held true with the mullard cv4003's  simply the best sounding..



Really?...I remember you and Badas once favoured 6BL7 tubes over 6AS7G/5998 family tubes. 

Have things changed since?


----------



## raindownthunda (Jan 2, 2020)

I have a used WE 421a tube I tried for the first time that sounded great for 5 min, but then a bright white spot developed in the middle of one of the plates and would flash but stay persistent. At the same time LOUD popping noises were heard. I quickly ripped off my headphones and powered down the amp. Luckily the headphones still work, but my ears are not happy. 

Is this a sign the power tube is going bad?? I'm afraid to try it again and have a bit of PTSD now trying out tubes... 

Going forward I think I will warm up the tubes before plugging in headphones. What is the minimum time I should wait before listening in case this happens again?


----------



## AlexDDD

raindownthunda said:


> I have a used WE 421a tube I tried for the first time that sounded great for 5 min, but then a bright white spot developed in the middle of one of the plates and would flash but stay persistent. At the same time LOUD popping noises were heard. I quickly ripped off my headphones and powered down the amp. Luckily the headphones still work, but my ears are not happy.
> 
> Is this a sign the power tube is going bad?? I'm afraid to try it again and have a bit of PTSD now trying out tubes...
> Going forward I think I will warm up the tubes before plugging in headphones. What is the minimum time I should wait before listening in case this happens again?


I am afraid the tube will need to be replaced, it happened with my previous rectifier(the bright glow witch dissapeared in a couple of seconds but the sound got distorted and that was it)


----------



## Wes S

AlexDDD said:


> I am afraid the tube will need to be replaced, it happened with my previous rectifier(the bright glow witch dissapeared in a couple of seconds but the sound got distorted and that was it)


I concur.  I would not put that tube back in my amp.  Bummer it had to be the famous and expensive 421a!


----------



## mordy

raindownthunda said:


> I have a used WE 421a tube I tried for the first time that sounded great for 5 min, but then a bright white spot developed in the middle of one of the plates and would flash but stay persistent. At the same time LOUD popping noises were heard. I quickly ripped off my headphones and powered down the amp. Luckily the headphones still work, but my ears are not happy.
> 
> Is this a sign the power tube is going bad?? I'm afraid to try it again and have a bit of PTSD now trying out tubes...
> 
> Going forward I think I will warm up the tubes before plugging in headphones. What is the minimum time I should wait before listening in case this happens again?


It is always a good idea with a tube amp to turn it on and let it warm up for a couple of minutes without headphones.
Then test that everything is OK with a pair of 
cheap sacrificial headphones just in case there are popping or explosive noises.
If you follow this protocol it is much less likely that you will blow a driver in your expensive headphones.
A little tedious, but better than replacing drivers in your headphones.


----------



## raindownthunda (Jan 3, 2020)

mordy said:


> It is always a good idea with a tube amp to turn it on and let it warm up for a couple of minutes without headphones.
> Then test that everything is OK with a pair of
> cheap sacrificial headphones just in case there are popping or explosive noises.
> If you follow this protocol it is much less likely that you will blow a driver in your expensive headphones.
> A little tedious, but better than replacing drivers in your headphones.



Good suggestions - I will do this going forward! How long should I warm the tube up with the cheapies before it is generally "safe" to listen to?

I had the same white spark + popping issue happen with a different tube that was supposed to have been tested in excellent condition... So it got me wondering if it had something to do with my amp (a brand new BHC build) and not the tubes.

I inspected my wiring & soldering work and noticed that after the flex of adding/removing a few output tubes, it looked like there were two red wires soldered to output pins ALMOST touching wire to wire (Pins 2 & 3). I was wondering if perhaps under the flex of changing tubes, the wires came close enough to crossing at the socket that would cause the tubes to pop/show bright lights, perhaps due to too much voltage??

Here is a pic I captured when the loud popping started happening. FWIW I think the popping was only out of the right channel...



I re-wired the output socket pin wires to be further apart to be sure they wouldn't come close to touching and reflowed a few ground joints around the headphone output. I'm trying out the same tube out and am 25 mins in and have the cheap headphones plugged in without any issues at all.

To be sure I can rule the tubes out... Once a tube is arcing does it keep arcing and get worse? Or can it be random and intermittent. I'm wondering if the output wiring was actually the culprit and not the tubes arcing.


----------



## mordy

raindownthunda said:


> Good suggestions - I will do this going forward! How long should I warm the tube up with the cheapies before it is generally "safe" to listen to?
> 
> I had the same white spark + popping issue happen with a different tube that was supposed to have been tested in excellent condition... So it got me wondering if it had something to do with my amp (a brand new BHC build) and not the tubes.
> 
> ...


 
Others would have to weigh in on how long to leave the amp on when starting it up in order to avoid problems. Personally, I turn the amp on without any headphones plugged in for a minute or two. Then I plug in the cheap headphones for a couple of minutes. If no problems, plug in your favorite headphones....
Regarding your arcing problem I do not have the experience or knowledge to diagnose the problem. It occurs to me that there are several tube amp designers and builders on Head-Fi that should be able to tell you what the problem is.


----------



## raindownthunda (Jan 10, 2020)

I was able to resolve the issue with the loud popping + bright white glowing dot on the plate. I found a short in pins 2 & 3 on the octal socket. According to Glenn this would cause the tube to draw too much current. Yikes!

Now to get this thread back on track, I found this ad for Bendix from an Electronics magazine vintage 1957 while researching the pair of Bendix 6080wb I just picked up. I wonder how much they cost in 1957? The amount of abuse these tubes were built to handle is pretty crazy! 


> From the standpoint of design features (see above), these reliable hard glass tubes
> offer the superior quality needed to survive today's severe environmental demands.
> Specifically, Bendix HY-G-300's are designed to withstand the following
> environmental conditions-bulb temperatures up to 300° C; vibration up to
> ...




Source: https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics/50s/Electronics-1957-08.pdf


----------



## mordy

Some of the 6080 type tubes and others were developed for military use in missiles and rockets. Perhaps the last application of tubes for military use before transistors took over was subminiature vacuum tubes:




The flying leads make them somewhat difficult to adopt to octal sockets but it is doable - they come as triods and dual triodes compatible with the 6SN7 tubes. The glass envelope is about 3/4" long or less, and these tubes are the ultimate in shock proofing and vibration resistance; some of them can withstand 500G and higher!
There are plenty of them available at very low prices. 
Here is an interesting article:
https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/subminiature-tubes/


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I just started rolling some tubes in my newly acquired BH Crack for the first time yesterday.
From the several 6AS7G family tubes I tried so far, the RCA Jan 6AS7G (1975, red label) sounded the best for my taste.
I also tried a couple of 6AS7G tubes by Raytheon and CBS Hytron. Their construction looked the same but they sounded different than the RCA Jan version.
Can somebody chime in if I should expect the RCA Jan white label versions from the 50s and the reds from the 60s to sound about the same?


----------



## mordy

As far as I know they are all made by RCA and should sound very similar- maybe in different stages of burn-in.
Give them more time and see how they sound - most tubes require 30-50 hours


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Thanks! At first glance, the regular CBS and Raytheon 6AS7G have a little more bass similar to the only Raytheon CK6080WA I have (I believe also made by RCA). The RCA Jan sounds tighter at the mid-upper bass but will see how all change with time.


----------



## cddc

BobMonkhouse said:


> I just started rolling some tubes in my newly acquired BH Crack for the first time yesterday.
> From the several 6AS7G family tubes I tried so far, the RCA Jan 6AS7G (1975, red label) sounded the best for my taste.
> I also tried a couple of 6AS7G tubes by Raytheon and CBS Hytron. Their construction looked the same but they sounded different than the RCA Jan version.
> Can somebody chime in if I should expect the RCA Jan white label versions from the 50s and the reds from the 60s to sound about the same?




I concur with mordy...they were most likely all made by RCA.

The difference in sound can be caused by different burn-in stages, also it can be caused by different building materials/technology as some from 50s and some from 60s.

But I don't think the difference wound be day and night if they're all RCA tubes, they should all bear the RCA house sound.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Thanks! I had more time to play with my few 6AS7G tubes the last few days. You're right, they feel very similar, may be due to combined tubes and brain burn in.
At this point, I feel lucky because I really like the way they sound paired with my favourite 12AU7 tubes.


----------



## mordy

BobMonkhouse said:


> Thanks! I had more time to play with my few 6AS7G tubes the last few days. You're right, they feel very similar, may be due to combined tubes and brain burn in.
> At this point, I feel lucky because I really like the way they sound paired with my favourite 12AU7 tubes.


It is also worth it to point out that some inexpensive tubes can sound great - there is no need to go to very expensive tubes to get good sound. As always, synergy between driver and power tubes is very important, and here the recommendations from other owners of the same equipment is invaluable, especially if you discover someone who hears things the same way as you do.
Another truth is that the same tube may sound different in different amps (depending on design and operating points).
Which means that if somebody says that such and such a tube isn't worth owning, it may very well be true for that person's amp, but the same tube may sound great in your amp.....
Let your ears guide you....


----------



## Keno18

mordy said:


> It is also worth it to point out that some inexpensive tubes can sound great - there is no need to go to very expensive tubes to get good sound. As always, synergy between driver and power tubes is very important, and here the recommendations from other owners of the same equipment is invaluable, especially if you discover someone who hears things the same way as you do.
> Another truth is that the same tube may sound different in different amps (depending on design and operating points).
> Which means that if somebody says that such and such a tube isn't worth owning, it may very well be true for that person's amp, but the same tube may sound great in your amp.....
> Let your ears guide you....


+1 on that. On my DarkVoice I find the JJ 6sn7 and Sylvania 6as7ga to be quite good.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I completely agree with the points above. I believe that the headphones model also matters when talking about tube preference.

I have experience with a couple of single tube hybrid amps. It's a bit more complicated finding a favorite tube pair for my BH Crack without going crazy though. OTOH I'm going to use only HD6XX with it, so it's a little easier to find what I like.

For now, just by using the RCA 6AS7 on hand, I can fine tune the sound by swapping a few different driver tubes with different signatures.


----------



## mordy

BobMonkhouse said:


> I completely agree with the points above. I believe that the headphones model also matters when talking about tube preference.
> 
> I have experience with a couple of single tube hybrid amps. It's a bit more complicated finding a favorite tube pair for my BH Crack without going crazy though. OTOH I'm going to use only HD6XX with it, so it's a little easier to find what I like.
> 
> For now, just by using the RCA 6AS7 on hand, I can fine tune the sound by swapping a few different driver tubes with different signatures.


Completely agree about the headphones - certain headphones pair better with certain amps than others. The reason I left it out is that I mainly listen via speakers and use my tube amp as a preamp.


----------



## SHIMACM

Is this a genuine Mullard 6080?


----------



## gibosi

SHIMACM said:


> Is this a genuine Mullard 6080?



Yes it is. The production code: AJ1  R0K2 tells all:

https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf

AJ = 6080
1 = revision number

R = Mullard Radio valve Co., Mitcham
0 = probably 1970
K = November
2 = Week of manufacture within month (Week was added to the code in 1961, so this tube can't have been manufactured in 1950 or 1960)


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Is this a genuine Mullard 6080?


I'll take it if you don't want it.


----------



## SHIMACM

I bought it for $ 35. I believe it was a good price, right?


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I bought it for $ 35. I believe it was a good price, right?


Very good price, I got mine 3 x the price


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> I'll take it if you don't want it.



So it's because it's a good thing ...


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Very good price, I got mine 3 x the price



I bought it from a person in Russia


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I bought it from a person in Russia


Same here. From Russia with Love..  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/251922243009


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Same here. From Russia with Love..
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/251922243009



I bought it from a new guy. He only had 30 sales on ebay. I think that's why the lowest price. The tube is NOS and tested.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I bought it from a new guy. He only had 30 sales on ebay. I think that's why the lowest price. The tube is NOS and tested.


Link? Might grab one, price is really good.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Link? Might grab one, price is really good.



I had already bought it. I just wanted to know if I had done the right thing. Thanks!


----------



## SHIMACM

Good Morning! This GE 6as7ga I bought (as shown in photos) how does it compare to the GE 6as7ga?


----------



## mordy

SHIMACM said:


> Good Morning! This GE 6as7ga I bought (as shown in photos) how does it compare to the GE 6as7ga?


I have several brands and the same brand variants of the 6AS7GA and IMHO they all sound the same - if you like them you can just shop by price.


----------



## SHIMACM

mordy said:


> I have several brands and the same brand variants of the 6AS7GA and IMHO they all sound the same - if you like them you can just shop by price.



Do you know how it compares to RCA 6as7g?


----------



## mordy

SHIMACM said:


> Do you know how it compares to RCA 6as7g?


The RCA 6AS7G (ST or Shoulder Type) is a very warm sounding tube. Some like it, but in general it does not get much love. The successor tube - RCA 6080 (straight glass) is also warm sounding with great mid bass, and a lot of people like the RCA 6080 for the sound and low price.
Re the ST 6AS7G any brand that has the same internals as the RCA was made by RCA, but when it says another brand name on it they usually sell for more. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TWO-2-RCA-...330570&hash=item3fdffe75da:g:SP4AAOSwxD1em0b6


----------



## adeadcrab

6AS7GA is identical to 6AS7G except in a different shape glass envelope, as far as I know. I have a few pairs of 6AS7GA and they have that classic tube sound - bloomy bass, syrupy mids, rolled off treble.


----------



## mordy

Agree with your description of the sound of the 6AS7GA and RCA 6AS7G, but it is quite possible to have a tube amp that has impactful tight bass, dynamic mids and a shimmering treble without sibilance.
It all depends on the amp and tube choices.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I have a few RCA 6080 tubes. All of them have more bloomy and less controlled bass than the RCA 6AS7G ST to my ears. I haven't heard the 6AS7GA type.


----------



## mordy

BobMonkhouse said:


> I have a few RCA 6080 tubes. All of them have more bloomy and less controlled bass than the RCA 6AS7G ST to my ears. I haven't heard the 6AS7GA type.


I have learned over the years that the same tube can sound different in different amps and as always, synergy with other tubes is very important too. It could have something to do with how the operating points of the the tubes were designed. Still, given all these factors, some tubes can be characterized in a certain way across a wider spectrum of applications, but as always YMMV....


----------



## JKDJedi

whirlwind said:


> I agree.
> 
> I do not hear the 5998 as being warm....it is pretty darn dynamic.
> 
> For warm, I really like the Mullard 6080


Funny how I never thought of the mullards 6080 as warm until reading this, and coming off a Sylvania 7236 just now, and rolling the Mullards.....Yup ...they are warm! O.O who would've thunked it...


----------



## adeadcrab

7236 are almost reference solid state in sound!


----------



## mordy

adeadcrab said:


> 7236 are almost reference solid state in sound!


I think you mean the Tung Sol 7236 - the Sylvania 7236 are supposed to sound different, but I have not heard them.


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 23, 2020)

adeadcrab said:


> 7236 are almost reference solid state in sound!


That's been my strong impression too, at least my Tung Sol 7236. Probably best used in a warm-leaning amp. or at least with warm'ish drivers.


----------



## Wes S (Apr 23, 2020)

In my opinion, nothing beats a Bendix 6080WB Slotted Graphite Plate with copper grid post, for power tube in the BHC.  For driver tube, I am running a Valvo ECC82 Long Plate Foil D Getter, from 1955 Hamburg.  This combo takes the BHC up another level, and sounds incredible.


----------



## whirlwind

Wes S said:


> In my opinion, nothing beats a Bendix 6080WB Slotted Graphite Plate with copper grid post, for power tube in the BHC.  For driver tube, I am running a Valvo ECC82 Long Plate Foil D Getter, from 1955 Hamburg.  This combo takes the BHC up another level, and sounds incredible.



Yeah, these are great power tubes indeed.


----------



## Velozity

Never heard a Sylvania 7236.  But I have six Tung-Sol 7236 and they are the most dynamic power tubes I've heard.  I usually run them with Mullard drivers whenever I'm listening to electronic music.  Bendix 6080WB is my go-to for jazz/vocals, and Chatham clear-top 6AS7G for "reference listening" and when I want to evaluate headphones or driver and rectifier tubes.


----------



## Wes S

Velozity said:


> Never heard a Sylvania 7236.  But I have six Tung-Sol 7236 and they are the most dynamic power tubes I've heard.  I usually run them with Mullard drivers whenever I'm listening to electronic music.  Bendix 6080WB is my go-to for jazz/vocals, and Chatham clear-top 6AS7G for "reference listening" and when I want to evaluate headphones or driver and rectifier tubes.


Nice!  I love the Chatham 6AS7G and Bendix 6080WB, but have never owned or heard the Tung-Sol 7236.  I listen to Electronica 80% of my listening time, and have to hear a Tung-Sol 7236, so I just bought one.  I can't wait to pair it with my Mullard ECC82 Long Plate Square Getter 57' Blackburn.  Thanks for posting that info!


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> That's been my strong impression too, at least my Tung Sol 7236. Probably best used in a warm-leaning amp. or at least with warm'ish drivers.


Tung Sol 7236 seems to be the Darkvoice 336se threads favorite. The Sylvania 7236 has tighter bass (than the Tung Sol)so if you like boom...get the Tung Sol. Some users report that the Tung Sol has the wider soundstage, i wonder if it's just the tighter control of the lower frequencies (on the Sylvania) that make it seem that way, both quick on delivery.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> Tung Sol 7236 seems to be the Darkvoice 336se threads favorite. The Sylvania 7236 has tighter bass (than the Tung Sol)so if you like boom...get the Tung Sol. Some users report that the Tung Sol has the wider soundstage, i wonder if it's just the tighter control of the lower frequencies (on the Sylvania) that make it seem that way, both quick on delivery.


I have a pair of Tung Sol 7236 I used in Feliks-Audio Elise and agree the stage and clarity are excellent. It is a bit more analytic / "solid state" sounding than some of my other powers, for better or worse depending upon one's preferences.


----------



## JKDJedi

So not sure why I bought it ..but grabbed a Haltron 6080. (Not yet shipped) Anybody know of these and want to make me feel better about my purchase?


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> So not sure why I bought it ..but grabbed a Haltron 6080. (Not yet shipped) Anybody know of these and want to make me feel better about my purchase?



Haltron didn't manufacture vacuum tubes. They were simply a reseller. So they would have bought it from any manufacturer, whoever had the best price at the time, and put their name on it.

It would be necessary to closely examine the internal construction of the tube in order to determine the actual maker. So without a very good picture, there's no telling who made the tube you bought. Enjoy!


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> So not sure why I bought it ..but grabbed a Haltron 6080. (Not yet shipped) Anybody know of these and want to make me feel better about my purchase?


Haltron was a British rebrander and the tubes could be from many different countries and sources. You would have to identify the tube by comparing it to known brands to know what you got.


----------



## mordy

I see that gibosi already answered while I was typing. In the past I once saw a GEC 6AS7G labelled as a Haltron that went for $50....
Would need clear pictures to identify it - does it say country of origin on it?


----------



## JKDJedi (Apr 26, 2020)

mordy said:


> I see that gibosi already answered while I was typing. In the past I once saw a GEC 6AS7G labelled as a Haltron that went for $50....
> Would need clear pictures to identify it - does it say country of origin on it?


Oh God... Probably got a GE..   Should I cancel? The tube itself has no country of origin,listed at Great Britain.


----------



## JKDJedi

I cancelled...


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Oh God... Probably got a GE..   Should I cancel? The tube itself has no country of origin,listed at Great Britain.



The pictures aren't very revealing, but my guess is it's a Sylvania 6080.


----------



## mordy

That was my thought too - I think JV has some for sale; very good sounding tubes BTW.


----------



## JKDJedi

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-El...012348&hash=item2639b1803b:g:magAAOSw-EZepwl2  <----- So the diffrence between a 421a and a 422a is what... $400?  No really what are the differences?


----------



## JKDJedi

IBM 5998? What's the history on those tubes?


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-El...012348&hash=item2639b1803b:g:magAAOSw-EZepwl2 <----- So the diffrence between a 421a and a 422a is what... $400?  No really what are the differences?



The 421A is a double triode, a souped up 5998. And the 422A is a rectifier.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> IBM 5998? What's the history on those tubes?



IBM purchased tons of 5998 for use in their early computers. And in fact, IBM purchased so many of them, that Chatham / Tung Sol often put IBM's part number on these tubes: 3002399, or 2399 for short. Otherwise, they are just a 5998. Nothing special.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> IBM purchased tons of 5998 for use in their early computers. And in fact, IBM purchased so many of them, that Chatham / Tung Sol often put IBM's part number on these tubes: 3002399, or 2399 for short. Otherwise, they are just a 5998. Nothing special.


ThANKS.. !


----------



## JKDJedi (May 2, 2020)

gibosi said:


> IBM purchased tons of 5998 for use in their early computers. And in fact, IBM purchased so many of them, that Chatham / Tung Sol often put IBM's part number on these tubes: 3002399, or 2399 for short. Otherwise, they are just a 5998. Nothing special.


So this IBM 5998 got listed this morning on bid, and it seemed like the person didn't know what he had, made an offer for $50 and they excepted! Thinking I did ok. Stoked.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> So this IBM 5998 got listed this morning on bid, and it seemed like the person didn't know what he had, made an offer for $50 and they excepted! Thinking I did ok. Stoked.


Good price - you did well. BTW, one of my 5998 tubes is an IBM labeled one.


----------



## JKDJedi (May 7, 2020)

She just arrived! ANd.....She WORKS! And they offered another one for the same price... X( It was one of them to good to be true scenarios, so I just gambled on the one. All good! Full bodied sound, especially compared to the Sylvania 7236 (yesterdays roll)


----------



## JKDJedi

I never read or heard of the Western Electric 421a used as a preamp tube... o.O yet this site claims that it can be used as both Power and Preamp duties.. Thoughts?

   "The Western Electric 421A is one of the best ever, large dual triode tubes intended for preamp use. You can build many amps & preamps around it. Traditionally considered to be a superior choice to 6SN7 types. We also receive advice from advanced hobbyists that the WE421A also makes for an excellent power output tube! Specifications confirm this... with a stated theoretical max up to 13 watts( plate  output dissapation). That would be it's maxed out configuration. Considering that, real world audiophile users will run these tubes much more conservative fashion, still able to make plenty of power for high efficiency WE, Altec, Lansing, Electrovoice, Stephens, early JBL speakers .. and most any other modern tube friendly horn system. And by the way -- that's each (per) plate . So this one tube, in such a circuit, could potentially drive an entire 2 channel, ultra high efficieny system"

. http://www.hifitown.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29960


----------



## LoryWiv

Thinning the heard. Posted TS 5998, RCA 6AS7G (+) for sale here on head-fi. Let me know if interested and happy listening.


----------



## gibosi (May 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I never read or heard of the Western Electric 421a used as a preamp tube... o.O yet this site claims that it can be used as both Power and Preamp duties.. Thoughts?
> 
> "The Western Electric 421A is one of the best ever, large dual triode tubes intended for preamp use. You can build many amps & preamps around it. *Traditionally considered to be a superior choice to 6SN7 types*. We also receive advice from advanced hobbyists that the WE421A also makes for an excellent power output tube! Specifications confirm this... with a stated theoretical max up to 13 watts( plate  output dissapation). That would be it's maxed out configuration. Considering that, real world audiophile users will run these tubes much more conservative fashion, still able to make plenty of power for high efficiency WE, Altec, Lansing, Electrovoice, Stephens, early JBL speakers .. and most any other modern tube friendly horn system. And by the way -- that's each (per) plate . So this one tube, in such a circuit, could potentially drive an entire 2 channel, ultra high efficieny system"
> 
> . http://www.hifitown.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29960



Bold added by me. This reads like it was put together by Western Electric's sales and advertising group. To imply that all one has to do is to pull out an inferior low power 6SN7GT and swap in a more powerful WE421A (or 5998 or 6AS7G) and everything will be better is hogwash. lol 

Edit: And I should add, Western Electric didn't make the 6SNGT. Rather, RCA developed it and owned all the patents.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Bold added by me. This reads like it was put together by Western Electric's sales and advertising group. To imply that all one has to do is to pull out an inferior low power 6SN7GT and swap in a more powerful WE421A (or 5998 or 6AS7G) and everything will be better is hogwash. lol
> 
> Edit: And I should add, Western Electric didn't make the 6SNGT. Rather, RCA developed it and owned all the patents.


I thought so, I can see how people's can be mislead.


----------



## wwmhf

JKDJedi said:


> She just arrived! ANd.....She WORKS! And they offered another one for the same price... X( It was one of them to good to be true scenarios, so I just gambled on the one. All good! Full bodied sound, especially compared to the Sylvania 7236 (yesterdays roll)



It looks good, and it sounds good as you statement for sure.


----------



## raindownthunda

I have a WE 421a tube that seems to have stopped working in one channel (using a BHC). Has anyone experienced this before or have any tips on how to try to fix? I’ve tested at least 10 different power tubes and it is an issue with this one tube for sure.


----------



## JKDJedi

raindownthunda said:


> I have a WE 421a tube that seems to have stopped working in one channel (using a BHC). Has anyone experienced this before or have any tips on how to try to fix? I’ve tested at least 10 different power tubes and it is an issue with this one tube for sure.


I'd try zapping the pins with a sodder iron. What else could you do? Anything loose inside?


----------



## raindownthunda

I did give it a good smack and that seemed to temporarily restore both channels for one session but sadly didn't last. I'll try heating the pins with a soldering iron and report back. Thanks for the suggestion. I can definitely hear a rattling noise when I shake it, but nothing visible is loose in the glass part of the tube.


----------



## JKDJedi

raindownthunda said:


> I did give it a good smack and that seemed to temporarily restore both channels for one session but sadly didn't last. I'll try heating the pins with a soldering iron and report back. Thanks for the suggestion. I can definitely hear a rattling noise when I shake it, but nothing visible is loose in the glass part of the tube.


oh oh.. might be a loose contact underneath.   No crackling or static?


----------



## raindownthunda

JKDJedi said:


> oh oh.. might be a loose contact underneath.   No crackling or static?


Is a loose contact fixable? I’ve never taken apart a tube before. There’s no sound at all through one channel and sounds normal in the other. The one time it did come through both channels it sounded fantastic - no static, hisses, pops, etc


----------



## JKDJedi

raindownthunda said:


> Is a loose contact fixable? I’ve never taken apart a tube before. There’s no sound at all through one channel and sounds normal in the other. The one time it did come through both channels it sounded fantastic - no static, hisses, pops, etc


Haven't a clue. Hopefully someone can chime in here.


----------



## mordy

Does the tube make popping or loud crackling noises?
Or it it completely silent on one channel?
Did you clean the pins and check all connections ?


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> Does the tube make popping or loud crackling noises?
> Or it it completely silent on one channel?
> Did you clean the pins and check all connections ?


He's saying completely silent on one channel, that all other tubes behavior is normal in that same slot


----------



## raindownthunda

mordy said:


> Does the tube make popping or loud crackling noises?
> Or it it completely silent on one channel?
> Did you clean the pins and check all connections ?



I gave the pins a light sanding and cleaned them with 99% Iso. Success!! I have never cleaned pins before on any of my tubes. I am thinking now is a good time give each tube a good cleaning before each roll... Thanks for the help!


----------



## mordy

raindownthunda said:


> I gave the pins a light sanding and cleaned them with 99% Iso. Success!! I have never cleaned pins before on any of my tubes. I am thinking now is a good time give each tube a good cleaning before each roll... Thanks for the help!


Very happy to be of help! And it is always a good idea to look at the pins. Very often there is oxidation and or corrosion after being stored for several decades....


----------



## leftside

Here's a tube from yesterday I was cleaning up. Took me an hour to clean up four like this. The pins were so dirty that I thought that was their actual colour - until I started cleaning the pin on the left.


----------



## raindownthunda (May 14, 2020)

mordy said:


> Very happy to be of help! And it is always a good idea to look at the pins. Very often there is oxidation and or corrosion after being stored for several decades....


So the tube worked in both channels for one session. Next time I powered up the amp (without touching the tube at all let alone removing it) the left channel had completely cut out again... Tried the solder trick today with 30 seconds on each pin plus adding a bit of extra solder to the tip. No luck! Still only one channel. I took the tube out and gave it a dozen good whacks against my mouse pad. Tried it again and voila, both channels are working again! Very strange - I guess I'll just keep whacking it...


----------



## JKDJedi (May 14, 2020)

raindownthunda said:


> So the tube worked in both channels for one session. Next time I powered up the amp (without touching the tube at all let alone removing it) the left channel had completely cut out again... Tried the solder trick today with 30 seconds on each pin plus adding a bit of extra solder to the tip. No luck! Still only one channel. I took the tube out and gave it a dozen good whacks against my mouse pad. Tried it again and voila, both channels are working again! Very strange - I guess I'll just keep whacking it...


I'd be going sideways if my Western Electric was going bonkers. I only bring mine out on special occasions. With that special bottle of red wine.


----------



## mordy

I am guessing now, but it could be an internal connection inside the tube construction that isn’t soldered or welded together.
Hopefully you will be able to get the pieces staying connected so that you don’t have to go through all the aggravation again.
Wonder if you can see the break by inspecting the tube carefully......


----------



## fuzzroffe

I recently built Pete Millett's low-mu preamp that's designed for a 7236 or alternatively 6AS7. I've used it with either a Winged C 6H13C or a Telefunken-branded GE 6080 (I think I prefer the 6080), but I'd really like to try a 5998 or 7236 in it for a little more gain. What would be a good choice here?


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> I recently built Pete Millett's low-mu preamp that's designed for a 7236 or alternatively 6AS7. I've used it with either a Winged C 6H13C or a Telefunken-branded GE 6080 (I think I prefer the 6080), but I'd really like to try a 5998 or 7236 in it for a little more gain. What would be a good choice here?


5998 has more gain than the 7236


----------



## adeadcrab

cetron 7236 might be easier to get, and is apparently a better match for that amp


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> cetron 7236 might be easier to get, and is apparently a better match for that amp


And they're both probably equal at gain, I take back the 5998 having more gain. Up to what your looking for in sound really. .


----------



## mordy

Tung Sol tubes - the 5998 is harder to get and more expensive; the Tung Sol 7236 is much cheaper. The prices vary a lot right now, but the roughly the market value is $100 and up for the 5998 and around $40 for the 7236 for singles.

6080 - Amplification  Factor 2 - Transcond. 7000 µmhos

7236 - Amp Factor 4.8 - Transcond. 12,500 µmohs

5998 - Amp Factor 5.4 - Transcond. 15,500 µmohs 

The amplification factor (gain) is very similar for the 7236 and the 5998 and more than two times higher than 6AS7/6080 tubes. It does not mean twice as loud, but you will hear a difference in gain using those tubes.
If you are patient there are bargains coming up here and there.....


----------



## fuzzroffe

Mu around 5 would certainly be enough, it’s really just to drive the power amp a little more when I’m using my iPad or other low level sources. I’ve read that the 7236 is less "tubey" sounding than the other big twin triodes, is that correct?


----------



## LoryWiv

fuzzroffe said:


> Mu around 5 would certainly be enough, it’s really just to drive the power amp a little more when I’m using my iPad or other low level sources. I’ve read that the 7236 is less "tubey" sounding than the other big twin triodes, is that correct?


I definitely find the 7236 less "tubey", producing excellent detail retrieval, instrument separation and well-balanced frequency neutrality. In a warm-leaning system and with a warm driver tube this is an asset whereas can be less so with other gear.


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> Mu around 5 would certainly be enough, it’s really just to drive the power amp a little more when I’m using my iPad or other low level sources. I’ve read that the 7236 is less "tubey" sounding than the other big twin triodes, is that correct?


That's correct, with a nice warm preamp like a Sylvania and you can get a nice pairing.


----------



## Velozity

fuzzroffe said:


> Mu around 5 would certainly be enough, it’s really just to drive the power amp a little more when I’m using my iPad or other low level sources. I’ve read that the 7236 is less "tubey" sounding than the other big twin triodes, is that correct?




Yes that's true.  Choose a warm-ish driver to pair with it.  When I run a pair of TS 7236 in my GOTL I almost always choose a GEC / MOV or Mullard driver tube.  Makes for a tasty sweet and salty mix!  7236 is an amazing tube at a great value.  I bought 4 extras because I like it that much.


----------



## JKDJedi

@Ripper2860  Maybe continue here?   Yes please let me know how that goes with your comparisons, the 7236 have the edge in punch, where the 5998 are just velvety smoother. Like em both.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks!!   Certainly new to the whole 6AS7 family of power tubes thing, so I'm sure I'll learn lots by hanging out here.


----------



## JKDJedi

raindownthunda said:


> So the tube worked in both channels for one session. Next time I powered up the amp (without touching the tube at all let alone removing it) the left channel had completely cut out again... Tried the solder trick today with 30 seconds on each pin plus adding a bit of extra solder to the tip. No luck! Still only one channel. I took the tube out and gave it a dozen good whacks against my mouse pad. Tried it again and voila, both channels are working again! Very strange - I guess I'll just keep whacking it...


Did you ever get this going? If not ship that baby over here to me, I'll fix it for ya.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> Bold added by me. This reads like it was put together by Western Electric's sales and advertising group. To imply that all one has to do is to pull out an inferior low power 6SN7GT and swap in a more powerful WE421A (or 5998 or 6AS7G) and everything will be better is hogwash. lol
> 
> Edit: And I should add, Western Electric didn't make the 6SNGT. Rather, RCA developed it and owned all the patents.


The guy posted ahead of you is going to be a dealer soon. LOL


----------



## JKDJedi

Anybody here have a JAN Chatham 6080?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 8, 2020)

I have one on the way.  

Markings are nearly missing, but one can barely make out CHA.  Needs a little TLC, but measures strong according to the seller.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I have one on the way.
> 
> Markings are nearly missing, but one can barely make out CHA.  Needs a little TLC, but measures strong according to the seller.


🤣🤣 Think we got ours from the same seller. Mine hasn't shipped yet. #anxious


----------



## Slade01

@JKDJedi weren't you happy enough with your sylvania gold brand 6080s?    yes i have a chatham 6080.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi weren't you happy enough with your sylvania gold brand 6080s?    yes i have a chatham 6080.


A collector is never satisfied... 😂 How do you like them? I saw them highly favored and couldn't resist grabbing one.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> A collector is never satisfied... 😂 How do you like them? I saw them highly favored and couldn't resist grabbing one.



I don't have much to compare it to, but these were 1000x leagues better than the blobbly Sylavnia JAN 6080 WBs i originally tried.  I had ranted a bit on DV thread about how sucky to me they were.  I bought the chatham's in the same attitude...they were highly favored, and got them at a great price at the time.  Was not disappointed at all, and didnt have a need to really keep experimenting with the 6080 sound beyond these.  I think really great for its price point/tier.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I don't have much to compare it to, but these were 1000x leagues better than the blobbly Sylavnia JAN 6080 WBs i originally tried.  I had ranted a bit on DV thread about how sucky to me they were.  I bought the chatham's in the same attitude...they were highly favored, and got them at a great price at the time.  Was not disappointed at all, and didnt have a need to really keep experimenting with the 6080 sound beyond these.  I think really great for its price point/tier.


I think you pointed me to an article a few months back was it this one?
And yeah the regular Sylvanias weren't that impressive (got rid of the Sylvania made Philips 6080 long time ago), by themselves maybe but when compared to the rest. Maybe not. The Gold Brand, different story, see how they compare to the Chatham though. 🙂
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3

*Thomson CSF-6080WA*

Price: ~£8 each
Availability: excellent


French military tube from 60's to mid 80's. Often comes in the original ridiculously oversized boxes. Clean, Airy & delicate. Nice treble performance. Well extended with impressive decay. Sparkly. Sweet sounding but could be a little bit metallic and a little thin sounding overall & especially in the mids. Good bass definition but may be bass-light for some. Works well with HD-650s. Nice budget easily available tube. If you got an RCA 6080 or GE-6080 as the stock tube then Thomson can be a worthwhile upgrade.

Treble: 8/10
Mid: 6/10
Bass 6/10

Overall Performance: 7/10
Value for Money: 9/10




















*Sylvania 6080*

Price: ~£10-£15 each
Availability: very good

Also available as WA/WB/WC iterations (chronological improvements) which may sound different. Tonally very warm & soft. Liquid. Smeared & Blobby. Pretty Bleh. Lacking in dynamics, overall impact & detail is obscured. Mid-centric & slow. Poor extension at the top. Pretty nasty overall. Poor choice for HD-650s. I would skip it. Apparently later versions (with steel rather than the earlier copper grid rods) tend be noisy.

Treble: 1/10
Mids: 5/10
Bass 4/10

Overall Performance: 4/10
Value for Money: 5/10












*Tung Sol 6080*

Price: ~£15 each
Availability: Average

Cool looking tube with classic looking US print. Also appears under Chatham label. Cheap but doesn't seem to be loads of them around. Damned good sounding tube! Clear and wide but with extra bite - just what the HD-650s needs. Punchy & Holographic with vocals a little more recessed but well placed for me. Well extended in treble. Dynamic. Sounds quick. Tight bass with good attack & weight. Guitars have excellent tube "twang". Sometimes could be a little bit grainy sounding. My favourite budget tube if not one of my favourites overall. Gets feet tapping like few of the others. Seems in tune with the "spirit of the Crack". Sometimes ships as the stock tube in the kit - if so, no need to go any further unless you're curious.

Treble: 8/10
Mid: 8/10
Bass 8/10

Overall Performance: 8/10
Value for Money: 10/10













*RCA 6080*

Price: ~£10 each
Availability: Excellent

Again, other iterations (JAN?) might sound different. This one sounds a bit richer than Tung Sol 6080. Initially sounds just average but with closer listening seems tonally very disjointed. Poor transient response & zero bite. Some mid-range & mid-bass suck-out. lacklustre. Treble can sound flat & rolled then strangely screechy at others. Weird & boring all at once. Loads around and cheap - and for good reason. Swap for a Thomson 6080 or Tung Sol 6080 asap.

Treble: 3/10
Mid: 5/10
Bass 4/10

Overall Performance: 4/10
Value for Money: 5/10













*Bendix 6080 Graphite Plates*

Price: ~£35 each (solid plate) £50 each (slotted plates)
Availability: average (solid plates) / poor (slotted plates)

Super ruggedised tube from New Jersey factory with graphite plates, thick glass and various extra supports - made for very demanding situations with need for high reliability. Thick glass - makes weird whizz-bang noises as it heats up. The only tube that needed 30 mins + to sound consistent (all others stable in 5-10) - which is a bit annoying for quick stealth sessions.

Super clean & solid sounding. Well balanced & surprisingly smooth. A hint of lushness (more than the standard Tung-Sol 6080). Instruments sound convincing, solid & well fleshed-out. Bass is slightly boosted but still well resolved and impactful. Treble extended and clear but lacking extra sparkle. Overall perhaps lacking in agility, punch and excitement factor. Might be lacking in "magic" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Solid performer but price-tag makes it relatively poor value especially vs the vanilla TS-6080. Perhaps use something more exciting in the input slot. Looks cool as hell in the Crack!

Slotted/ cross shaped plates more sought after and may sound different/better.

Treble: 7/10
Mid: 7/10
Bass 7/10

Overall Performance: 7/10
Value for Money: 5/10











*Mullard CV2984 / 6080*

Price: ~£30
Availability: pretty good

British tube in cigar roll. Very lush. Soft as hell. Lacking in transparency, resolution, and extension at both ends. However somehow manages not to be totally boring (unlike Sylvania 6080) with pretty special and unique liquid warmth in the mids that is strangely enjoyable and not found in any of the others. Glowing, rich & a bit other-worldly. Blended and swirled. Boomy, ill defined bass. Limited bandwith for music collection - Pathetic for electronica, worth hearing for other genres. Probably too thick and slow for HD-650s overall. Might be good for Beyerdynamics with sizzle. Will use from time to time.

Treble: 6/10
Mids: 8/10
Bass 5/10

Overall performance: 6/10
Value for Money: 6/10












*GEC 6080*

Price: ~£40+
Availability: not great but some available at higher prices (£65) on ebay

The less sought after of the 2 GEC tubes but almost as rare. Can sometimes be found for good (sub £30) prices. Beware people selling GE (US) tubes as GEC (British). Excellent and classy sounding tube – controlled, clean and spacious. Fundamentally warm but much less so than the Mullard and remains very well resolved in the treble and more balanced throughout. Extra shimmer and sparkle. Accurate and delicate with possibly the most impressive imaging/separation of the lot. Precise but not lean. Vocal is natural and well placed. Bass sounds well controlled but not monstrous. Some may find it all a bit lightweight/prissy. For me - the best 6080 next to the Tung Sol 6080 which has a bit more kick but isn't as refined.

Treble: 9/10
Mids: 8/10
Bass 8/10

Overall performance: 9/10
Value for Money: 7/10














*GE 6080*

Price: ~£8
Availability: excellent

Came as the stock tube in the kit and I returned to it at the end of all my rolling to see how far the Crack had come. A Good starting point and still better than RCA/Sylvania 6080. Overall sounds a little compressed, a bit dull and muted throughout the entire range when compared to the best of the others - but mostly inoffensive, nothing to worry about and will certainly not prevent the wow factor when first firing up a freshly built Crack. Impressively average in all departments. Would be cheap and easy to move to a Thomson 6080 or Tung Sol 6080 for a nice little upgrade but certainly no need to if you're not into tube rolling.

Treble: 6/10
Mids: 6/10
Bass 5/10

Overall performance: 5/10
Value for Money: 6/10


----------



## LoryWiv

Good reference, thanks! I wonder if results would vary in a different amp. I've been hunting for 6080's to use with 6SN7 drivers in Felik's Audio Elise. Was eying the Thomson's as they are avaialble / affordable on ebay, but open to other suggestions.


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Good reference, thanks! I wonder if results would vary in a different amp. I've been hunting for 6080's to use with 6SN7 drivers in Felik's Audio Elise. Was eying the Thomson's as they are avaialble / affordable on ebay, but open to other suggestions.


I'm sure they would differ, and yes those Thompson's. I couldn't find them, could you PM the link on those? Or here, your discretion,


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> I'm sure they would differ, and yes those Thompson's. I couldn't find them, could you PM the link on those? Or here, your discretion,


Seller seems to have quantities so let's share with the thread:
*https://www.ebay.com/itm/Premium-Ma...S-Thomson-csf-France-Valve-Tubes/112136749496*


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I think you pointed me to an article a few months back was it this one?
> And yeah the regular Sylvanias weren't that impressive (got rid of the Sylvania made Philips 6080 long time ago), by themselves maybe but when compared to the rest. Maybe not. The Gold Brand, different story, see how they compare to the Chatham though. 🙂
> https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3
> 
> ...


Yes its probably this one.  This post is still one of the more definitive ones that are still out there even after all this time.  I keep it in mind as the OP to me is on point at least with the sylvania and the tung-sol/chatham descriptions/impressions.


----------



## mordy

The same tube sounds different in different amps, and then you have the synergy with the other tube(s) used.
I have had very good results in the Feliks Elise/Euforia with Sylvania and GEC 6080.
For me the best approach is to follow the people on the forum that have my amp and then, based on reading listening impressions, finding  people that hear things similar to me. If you can find such people, their recommendations can be relied on.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 8, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Seller seems to have quantities so let's share with the thread:
> *https://www.ebay.com/itm/Premium-Ma...S-Thomson-csf-France-Valve-Tubes/112136749496*



Or this listing if you just need a single...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080WA-6080-NOS-Thomson-csf-France-Valve-Tubes/112755034736


----------



## JKDJedi

So I just saw a video from PS Audio and the guy claims tubes only last one year at peak, then they just start to fade.  True?


----------



## Ripper2860

Damn!!!   I've had a quite a few in my tube storage drawer for that long, so I guess I should toss them.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Damn!!!   I've had a quite a few in my tube storage drawer for that long, so I guess I should toss them.


LOL 🤣 that's not gonna happen... Light them till they flare out .


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> So I just saw a video from PS Audio and the guy claims tubes only last one year at peak, then they just start to fade.  True?



Is that one year of cumulative use? In any case, that seems contrary to collective wisdom.


----------



## mordy

Not true. Tubes can last for years - I know of people who used the same tubes for 10 years and they still had life left.
I am currently using tubes that were manufactured in 1941 and 1942.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 8, 2020)

Ditto.  Several tubes from as far back as 1942.

1. I suspect Paul McGowan never, ever, turns off his tube/SS hybrid BHK amps/preamps.
2. He did say that he's certainly not an expert on tubes.


----------



## DenverW

Depending on their starting point, these tubes can have thousands of hours of life.  If you're listening to your amp 8 hours a day, 7 days a week they may last a year, but a couple hours a day should keep them good for many years.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Here's a fun little tube, a GE 6080 with Telefunken branding. Cost a little bit more than a GE-branded one, I just got it for the cool logo  It sounds pretty nice in my preamp.


----------



## mordy

Unfortunately there are plenty of fakes out there sold by unscrupulous sellers at high prices.
Did the seller tell you that it was a GE?


----------



## fuzzroffe

Yes, I got it from Watford Valves so I'm pretty confident that the info is correct. It also has the glass etching that my other GE tubes have.


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> Here's a fun little tube, a GE 6080 with Telefunken branding. Cost a little bit more than a GE-branded one, I just got it for the cool logo  It sounds pretty nice in my preamp.


The graphics are sick, nice find


----------



## LoryWiv

fuzzroffe said:


> Here's a fun little tube, a GE 6080 with Telefunken branding. Cost a little bit more than a GE-branded one, I just got it for the cool logo  It sounds pretty nice in my preamp.


Nice looking tube!. Any comments on it's sound vs. other 6080's?


----------



## fuzzroffe

I only have two of these and a couple of Winged C 6AS7’s, so I don’t have much to compare with. My guess is that it sounds like a normal GE 6080, since it looks identical internally. But I think I prefer it over the Winged Cs, it sounds more open and a tad softer.


----------



## cddc (Jun 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> So I just saw a video from PS Audio and the guy claims tubes only last one year at peak, then they just start to fade.  True?





This guy builds and sells Solid State amps, do we expect good reviews on tubes and/or tube amps from him? 

One year life span for tubes is a bullsh*t!


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> This guy builds and sells Solid State amps, do we expect good reviews on tubes and/or tube amps from him?
> 
> One year life span for tubes is a bullsh*t!


I'm wondering if this guy just uses the "new" tubes versus NOS. Seems like today's tubes don't last as long as the oldies but goodies.


----------



## Ripper2860

My understanding is that he uses NEW PRODUCTION Genalex Gold Lion tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Tub...343516?hash=item36646178dc:g:KgsAAOSwROxezncX
Whats the story on this tube..never heard of a 6SA7G tube... dyslectic ??


----------



## Ripper2860

You go first!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> You go first!!


I have no idea!! Someone grab it and chime in on what the thing does to their amp please 😂😂


----------



## fuzzroffe

Heptode receiving tube, try triode connecting it!


----------



## fuzzroffe

Are these any good? https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...319193?hash=item1ce9c88e19:g:VmgAAOSw21FetI4a

Are they 5998*A*'s?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 13, 2020)

fuzzroffe said:


> Are these any good? https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...319193?hash=item1ce9c88e19:g:VmgAAOSw21FetI4a
> 
> Are they 5998*A*'s?


NO!! Get Behind Me SATAN!!!  NOT 5998 (and yes most likely 5998A) wow my first question is ....why? 5998A????


----------



## fuzzroffe

JKDJedi said:


> NO!! Get Behind Me SATAN!!!  NOT 5998 (and yes most likely 5998A) wow my first question is ....why? 5998A????


That bad? I'd better wait for some 7236s then


----------



## adeadcrab

fuzzroffe said:


> That bad? I'd better wait for some 7236s then


7236 are legit - possibly my fav with the Bendix 6080WB

I have 4 pairs of 7236 Tung-Sol rebranded as Cetron, if you see any snap them up, i can't see any on the market right now


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> That bad? I'd better wait for some 7236s then


which amp are you rocking and what do you have now for 6as7g duties?


----------



## fuzzroffe

adeadcrab said:


> 7236 are legit - possibly my fav with the Bendix 6080WB
> 
> I have 4 pairs of 7236 Tung-Sol rebranded as Cetron, if you see any snap them up, i can't see any on the market right now


I'm keeping an eye out for some Cetrons. There's an Ebay listing right now for Sylvania 7236s, but $95 each is a bit much for me.


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> I'm keeping an eye out for some Cetrons. There's an Ebay listing right now for Sylvania 7236s, but $95 each is a bit much for me.


RCA 6AS7G from 30's to mid 50's are bomb. (meaning I like em) not expensive either.


----------



## fuzzroffe

JKDJedi said:


> which amp are you rocking and what do you have now for 6as7g duties?


It's the low-mu preamp designed by Pete Millett, he used a 7236 and also tested a 6AS7 in it. I'm using a Telefunken-branded GE6080 right now which is pretty good, and I have a couple of Winged Cs too.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 13, 2020)

Nothing to see here ...


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> It's the low-mu preamp designed by Pete Millett, he used a 7236 and also tested a 6AS7 in it. I'm using a Telefunken-branded GE6080 right now which is pretty good, and I have a couple of Winged Cs too.


For the monies RCA JAN 6AS7G will fill the bill nice. Grabbing a JAN will for sure be dated for WW2 is my thinking.


Ripper2860 said:


> I know you're not in the US, but ...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cetron-7236-DBL-TRIODE-GETTER-CHROME-TOP-HiFi-VACUUM-TUBES-6AS7-5998-6080-6528/293548384516?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


did he just grab it...lol... it's gone..that was quick!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 13, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> For the monies RCA JAN 6AS7G will fill the bill nice. Grabbing a JAN will for sure be dated for WW2 is my thinking.
> 
> did he just grab it...lol... it's gone..that was quick!



No.  That was my purchase.  I guess he sold his remaining lot.  I'll edit my post.  

Glad I got 2 of them.

Looks like the same seller has a Etsy listing.  Maybe he yanked it from eBay or really sold out and just forgot to pull it off Etsy ...

https://www.etsy.com/listing/758948...f=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1&frs=1

Maybe @fuzzroffe can use this listing as a negotiating tool to get a lower price from his seller.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Yeah, that one ended a couple of days ago, I was looking at it but I hadn't got my paycheck yet... There are some Cetrons for sale on Etsy for about $40 each, maybe it's the same guy.


----------



## adeadcrab

Years ago I snagged 2 pairs of these GE 6AS7GA, smooth warm tube sound - i think is a 6AS7G rebrand, just in a straight bottle not the coke type

https://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-6as7-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612

I just tried adding 10 and it seems they have at least that in stock - cheap alternative to RCA NOS 6AS7G


----------



## fuzzroffe

I ordered a couple of 7236 from Etsy, hope the shipping doesn't take too long


----------



## Ripper2860

I hope you get them.  I'm pretty sure it is the same guy as the sold-out eBay guy -- same pic and both from Salt Lake City, Utah.  Fingers crossed for you!!


----------



## mordy

fuzzroffe said:


> Heptode receiving tube, try triode connecting it!


It is not a printing mistake - there is such a tube:
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_vt150.html
Pentagrid Converter - Heptode
We need gibosi to weigh in on this one if it can used.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> NO!! Get Behind Me SATAN!!!  NOT 5998 (and yes most likely 5998A) wow my first question is ....why? 5998A????


It appears that the 5998A is similar to the ST type 5998 but with tubular glass. The GE tubes in the ad look like 5998A tubes. Seems like GE and Sylvania made them. 
There is another very similar tube that is much cheaper - 6AS7GA.
As far as I can recall both the 5998A and the 6AS7GA don't get much love on these pages.


----------



## cddc

mordy said:


> It is not a printing mistake - there is such a tube:
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_vt150.html
> Pentagrid Converter - Heptode
> We need gibosi to weigh in on this one if it can used.



I agree with you, mordy. 6AS7G =/= 6SA7G. Very confusing names, watch out folks, don't buy a tube with similar name but totally incompatible 

Have you used radiomuseum.org before? I once tried to download some pdf file (specs of a tube) from radiomuseum.org, but looks like it would charge a fee for downloading.


----------



## cddc

mordy said:


> It appears that the 5998A is similar to the ST type 5998 but with tubular glass. The GE tubes in the ad look like 5998A tubes. Seems like GE and Sylvania made them.
> There is another very similar tube that is much cheaper - 6AS7GA.
> As far as I can recall both the 5998A and the 6AS7GA don't get much love on these pages.



5998A and 6AS7GA look the same in shape, possibly sound similar, hence lack of love from folks here?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 14, 2020)

mordy said:


> It appears that the 5998A is similar to the ST type 5998 but with tubular glass. The GE tubes in the ad look like 5998A tubes. Seems like GE and Sylvania made them.
> There is another very similar tube that is much cheaper - 6AS7GA.
> As far as I can recall both the 5998A and the 6AS7GA don't get much love on these pages.


I had the cheaper version of that said tube and wondered why it was even made ... dead and no life. Now if the ones in that listing that are labeled GE are indeed Sylvania, then yes probably worth the squeeze. @bcowen  probably knows about that one more than I do.

GE
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...319193?hash=item1ce9c88e19:g:VmgAAOSw21FetI4a

Sylvania
https://www.ebay.com/itm/pair-of-JAN-5998A-Sylvania-Vacuum-tube-6080-6as7-/143037916979


----------



## mordy

cddc said:


> I agree with you, mordy. 6AS7G =/= 6SA7G. Very confusing names, watch out folks, don't buy a tube with similar name but totally incompatible
> 
> Have you used radiomuseum.org before? I once tried to download some pdf file (specs of a tube) from radiomuseum.org, but looks like it would charge a fee for downloading.


I use Radiomuseum all the time - it is great for finding the same tube under a different designation which can help in finding a less expensive version of the same tube.
If you need specifications of a tube, just type in the tube designation on Google. As an example type in "6SN7GT spec", and you will find many downloadable and free sources.
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf
Another free handy site will tell you which other tubes have the same pin-out as the tube you have.
https://tdsl-personal-edition.software.informer.com/1.1/


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> I had the cheaper version of that said tube and wondered why it was even made ... dead and no life. Now if the ones in that listing that are labeled GE are indeed Sylvania, then yes probably worth the squeeze. @bcowen  probably knows about that one more than I do.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...319193?hash=item1ce9c88e19:g:VmgAAOSw21FetI4a


I don't want any misunderstanding - the tubes listed are definitively made by GE; I just stated that Sylvania manufactured this tube as well in their own factory.


----------



## cddc

mordy said:


> I use Radiomuseum all the time - it is great for finding the same tube under a different designation which can help in finding a less expensive version of the same tube.
> If you need specifications of a tube, just type in the tube designation on Google. As an example type in "6SN7GT spec", and you will find many downloadable and free sources.
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf
> Another free handy site will tell you which other tubes have the same pin-out as the tube you have.
> https://tdsl-personal-edition.software.informer.com/1.1/



Many thanks for the links, mordy!

I can recall now I was trying to download the specs of 421a, googled it, found radiomuseum.org but couldn't download the pdf. Later, found the specs pdf directly from Tung Sol's official website for free.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 14, 2020)

mordy said:


> I don't want any misunderstanding - the tubes listed are definitively made by GE; I just stated that Sylvania manufactured this tube as well in their own factory.


I knew what you meant, I updated my last post with a Sylvania listing, but I'm confused which came out first? Was it Sylvania that built these initially and then GE took over or the other way around? At some point the said tube might have just been labeled as another manufacturer, like Tung Sol when they took over Chatham, or Mullard when they took over Philips..  (oh man I sure do hope I got that right)  (but you know what I'm getting at)


----------



## LoryWiv

adeadcrab said:


> 7236 are legit - possibly my fav with the *Bendix 6080WB*
> 
> I have 4 pairs of 7236 Tung-Sol rebranded as Cetron, if you see any snap them up, i can't see any on the market right now



I haven't seen much about the Bendix 6080. I found TS 7236 a bit analytic / "clinical" although it had very good stage and detail, just not very euphonic. Is the Bendix similar?

BTW I have a pair of *TS 7236 listed*, willing to sell or trade for other powers. PM me if interested.


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> I haven't seen much about the Bendix 6080. I found TS 7236 a bit analytic / "clinical" although it had very good stage and detail, just not very euphonic. Is the Bendix similar?
> 
> BTW I have a pair of *TS 7236 listed*, willing to sell or trade for other powers. PM me if interested.


The Tung Sol 7236 has a solid state sound which some people like. The Bendix 6080WB is one of the best sounding power tubes. It has graphite plates which are distinctive looking. There are also rebranded or similar tubes to the Bendix 6080WB with graphite plates that are labeled Tung Sol, Chatham and Raytheon which usually cost less - Bendix are hard to find.


----------



## mordy

Here are pictures to spot the graphite plates:
Thick ceramic micas and heavy duty supports:




Just be careful - there are 6080 tubes with the heavy supports but regular plates.
Here is a picture of how the graphite plates look like:



In addition, there are variations in how the graphite plates look like. I don't have this version, but the slotted graphite plate Bendix are supposed to sound the best:


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> Here are pictures to spot the graphite plates:
> Thick ceramic micas and heavy duty supports:
> 
> Just be careful - there are 6080 tubes with the heavy supports but regular plates.
> ...


It appears these have the "regular" (non-graphite) plates" although thick micas and strong support rods...thoughts? *https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Bendix-6080WB-Red-Bank-Tubes-USA-BUYERS-ONLY/283908353022*


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> It appears these have the "regular" (non-graphite) plates" although thick micas and strong support rods...thoughts? *https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Bendix-6080WB-Red-Bank-Tubes-USA-BUYERS-ONLY/283908353022*


I looked at the ad this evening and even though it says Bendix it does not look like graphite plates but maybe better pictures are needed.
If I was contemplating these tubes I would ask the seller directly.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> I looked at the ad this evening and even though it says Bendix it does not look like graphite plates but maybe better pictures are needed.
> If I was contemplating these tubes I would ask the seller directly.


I concur, they look like regular plates.


----------



## adeadcrab

I have 2 pairs of Bendix 6080WB with solid plates - they have strong bass and an ultra wide staging. Besides the bass they are balanced through mids and treble, last i remember.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> I concur, they look like regular plates.


According to the seller the plates are regular plates. I have not seen this before with a Bendix 6080WB.
Several years ago I bought a Tung Sol 6080WB with the heavy reinforced construction but the picture did not show the internals clearly . I thought I got a bargain graphite tube, but the plates were the standard ones.
Caveat Emptor - buyer beware!


----------



## Wes S (Jun 14, 2020)

Just jumping in, as I own some Tung Sol 7236 & 5998, and several variations of the Bendix 6080WB Graphite Plate including the slotted plate, and as far as I am concerned, the Bendix can't be beat.  The punchy impact of the bass, euphonic mids, and separation and air up top that you get with the Bendix, was a revelation the first time I heard one.


----------



## mordy

Wes S said:


> Just jumping in, as I own some Tung Sol 7236 & 5998, and several variations of the Bendix 6080WB Graphite Plate including the slotted plate, and as far as I am concerned, the Bendix can't be beat.  The punchy impact of the bass, euphonic mids, and separation and air up top that you get with the Bendix, was a revelation the first time I heard one.


I agree, but as always, it is a matter of synergy with other tubes. However, the Bendix works very well with many different kinds of tubes.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 14, 2020)

mordy said:


> I agree, but as always, it is a matter of synergy with other tubes. However, the Bendix works very well with many different kinds of tubes.


Synergy is definitely what matters and the Bendix is the type of tube, that can sound incredible in almost every amp you put it in. I have put all kinds of different driver tubes (from bright to dark) in front of the Bendix, and they all sounded their best to me.  The Tung Sol 7236, is a different story.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Has anybody tried the 6336 or 6528? What do they sound like?


----------



## whirlwind

fuzzroffe said:


> Has anybody tried the 6336 or 6528? What do they sound like?




If you are talking about 6336 A/B tubes.....make sure your amp can except these before plugging them in...they need 5 amp


----------



## fuzzroffe

whirlwind said:


> If you are talking about 6336 A/B tubes.....make sure your amp can except these before plugging them in...they need 5 amp


I have an 8 amp heater winding so I could theoretically do it. A preamp with a 6080 is silly enough, a 6336/6528 would be ludicrous. But still...


----------



## mordy

I have the Cetron 6336B and it has a very nice neutral sound that compliments many drivers.
My amp can handle up to 13A and a pair of the 6336 tubes are supposed to be good for driving planar headphones.
The 6528 is the same tube with more gain; not always an asset in power tubes since it could amplify electrical noise.
Basically the 6336 is a double 5998. This tube draws 5A vs 2,5A for the 6AS7/6080 families. However, in my experience 2x2.5A is more than enough for most applications.
Watch out - the 6336 gets really very hot! Maybe invest in those insulated oven mittens lol.....


----------



## SHIMACM

Wes S said:


> Just jumping in, as I own some Tung Sol 7236 & 5998, and several variations of the Bendix 6080WB Graphite Plate including the slotted plate, and as far as I am concerned, the Bendix can't be beat.  The punchy impact of the bass, euphonic mids, and separation and air up top that you get with the Bendix, was a revelation the first time I heard one.



Have you used the Bendix 6080wb on Darkvoice? If so, does the assessment you made apply?


----------



## bcowen (Jun 14, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> I haven't seen much about the Bendix 6080. I found TS 7236 a bit analytic / "clinical" although it had very good stage and detail, just not very euphonic. Is the Bendix similar?
> 
> BTW I have a pair of *TS 7236 listed*, willing to sell or trade for other powers. PM me if interested.



I have a Sylvania 7236, a TungSol, and several of the Cetron-labeled ones.  The construction of the TungSol and Cetron is close to identical with the exception of the getter trays -- the Cetron has dual halos and the TungSol dual D's.  That's likely just a manufacturing date difference though -- the plate structure, color, and material is identical between the two.  Interestingly I like the Sylvania best of the 3 regardless of the 6SN7 it's paired with.  With a 'friendly' sounding 6SN7, I prefer the Cetron branded one to the TungSol. Both can be a bit too aggressive and hard sounding up top for my tastes with, say, a Russian (Foton, Melz, etc) 6N8S, but a gray glass RCA or PSVane CV181t helps take off that hard edge and makes it quite enjoyable to listen to. Excellent staging, excellent dynamics, punchy and extended bass...as long as the treble can be tamed it's great tube for rock and metal, at least for my preferences.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I had the cheaper version of that said tube and wondered why it was even made ... dead and no life. Now if the ones in that listing that are labeled GE are indeed Sylvania, then yes probably worth the squeeze. @bcowen  probably knows about that one more than I do.
> 
> GE
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PA...319193?hash=item1ce9c88e19:g:VmgAAOSw21FetI4a
> ...



My personal opinion on GE's...in pictures:





If that was discounted by 75% and had free shipping, I might consider buying it as a calibration tube for my testers.


----------



## mordy

There are always exceptions- some of their older smaller tubes sound excellent.
Examples are 6J5 and 5687, but I agree with your opinion re the 6080.


----------



## LoryWiv

adeadcrab said:


> I have 2 pairs of Bendix 6080WB with *solid plates* - they have strong bass and an ultra wide staging. Besides the bass they are balanced through mids and treble, last i remember.


Thank you @adeadcrab. To clarify, by "solid plates: do you mean non-graphite?


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> Thank you @adeadcrab. To clarify, by "solid plates: do you mean non-graphite?


I imagine like that picture I posted of the graphite plate - solid plates in contrast to slotted plates with an oval cutout.
Only drawback, if you can call it that, is that these tubes take longer to warm up; perhaps 30 minutes. They were developed for ballistic missiles and made very strong. Good for 500G and 60,000 feet altitude.
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/138/6/6080WB.pdf


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> There are always exceptions- some of their older smaller tubes sound excellent.
> Examples are 6J5 and 5687, but I agree with your opinion re the 6080.



So you're saying a GE 6J5, I mean actually made by GE with the etched dots and all, actually sounds good?  I've tried a lot of different GE's over the years and with the exception of their 211 there was universal suckage involved, but I've never tried a GE 6J5 (or a 5687).  Currently rolling some 6J5's, so I'm interested.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> So you're saying a GE 6J5, I mean actually made by GE with the etched dots and all, actually sounds good?  I've tried a lot of different GE's over the years and with the exception of their 211 there was universal suckage involved, but I've never tried a GE 6J5 (or a 5687).  Currently rolling some 6J5's, so I'm interested.


Same here, double that interest. Times Two


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> There are always exceptions- some of their older smaller tubes sound excellent.
> Examples are 6J5 and 5687, but I agree with your opinion re the 6080.


I was given a tip to use GE 7581A with an adapter for 6SN7 as drivers over in the Feliks-Audio Elise forum, and it is in fact an excellent tube in my amp. Small bit of hum on start-up, sonically very pleasing.


----------



## mordy

Yes, for $2-3  a piece it’s definitely worth trying the old GE all metal ugly ducklings. 6C5 as well.


----------



## adeadcrab

Bendix 6080WB have slotted or solid graphite plates - I've only heard the solid plates


----------



## Wes S

adeadcrab said:


> Bendix 6080WB have slotted or solid graphite plates - I've only heard the solid plates


I have both, and they are very very close in sound.  I would suggest looking for the solid graphite plates, as they can be found cheaper.


----------



## SHIMACM

I saw an ad on ebay (the ad is over but my question remains) for a TS 5998 with the following information "A TV-7D / U checker was used to test for transconducatnce, shorts, gas and microphonics. The mutual conductance test values are: 71/64, minimum, passing is 40/40 ". Is this tube really good? What measurement value should it aim to be considered a NOS?


----------



## mordy

This is a very good and tricky question. Every tester is different and you need to know what is considered good, passing and new test values for that particular tester; you cannot compare the numbers easily to other testers.
Even if a tester shows the tube being good there is still a possibility that the tube does not work properly, unfortunately.
Many people report the test results without the reference parameters or just say “tested”, leaving it to the buyer to figure out what it means.
All this being said, my personal experiences buying tubes have generally been positive. If something goes wrong, eBay and PayPal usually will back you up.


----------



## SHIMACM

mordy said:


> This is a very good and tricky question. Every tester is different and you need to know what is considered good, passing and new test values for that particular tester; you cannot compare the numbers easily to other testers.
> Even if a tester shows the tube being good there is still a possibility that the tube does not work properly, unfortunately.
> Many people report the test results without the reference parameters or just say “tested”, leaving it to the buyer to figure out what it means.
> All this being said, my personal experiences buying tubes have generally been positive. If something goes wrong, eBay and PayPal usually will back you up.



Would you pay $ 140 for a tube with that measurement?


----------



## mordy (Jun 15, 2020)

The answer is no - it is overpriced based on current market prices.
Below is a link of what 5998 tubes sold for in the past month or two:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=5998+tube&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1
The range is mainly from around $50 - 90 for singles with some going for more. Whether it says Tung Sol, Chatham or IBM does not matter; just make sure that you are looking at the right tube with the domino plates.
Because many sellers list a number of tube designations in their descriptions you have to sift through the posts.


----------



## mordy (Jun 15, 2020)

Wes S said:


> I have both, and they are very very close in sound.  I would suggest looking for the solid graphite plates, as they can be found cheaper.


I would like to add another thought about the pricing of vacuum tubes. IMHO there are professional sellers out there that endeavor to drive up the prices. One of the marketing strategies they employ is to tout certain tube variants to be superior sounding. For many people the small differences in certain tubes are not so evident, and these guys try to seize on something that anybody can see and understand. Examples are tubes that are visually different, such as a red base instead of black or brown, a curved base instead of a straight base, an oval slot in the plate instead of no holes, black glass instead of clear glass etc etc.
Above I am speaking of old tubes, not to mention new production tubes coming out of China in alluring boxes and shapes and fancy color schemes at varying prices for what looks to be the same or very similar tubes. Reminds me of the same vodka being sold in fancier bottles and packaging at different prices.....
I would venture to say that the same tube with black glass usually sells for more than the same tube with a clear top. Why? Because everybody knows that black glass is better....
In certain countries you cannot sell a high end tube amp unless the tubes have a very prominent tube glow.
You get the idea....


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 15, 2020)

mordy said:


> I would like to add another thought about the pricing of vacuum tubes. IMHO there are professional sellers out there that endeavor to drive up the prices. One of the marketing strategies they employ is to tout certain tube variants to be superior sounding. For many people the small differences in certain tubes are not so evident, and these guys try to seize on something that anybody can see and understand. Examples are tubes that are visually different, such as a red base instead of black or brown, a curved base instead of a straight base, an oval slot in the plate instead of no holes, black glass instead of clear glass etc etc.
> Above I am speaking of old tubes, not to mention new production tubes coming out of China in alluring boxes and shapes and fancy color schemes at varying prices for what looks to be the same or very similar tubes. Reminds me of the same vodka being sold in fancier bottles and packaging at different prices.....
> I would venture to say that the same tube with black glass usually sells for more than the same tube with a clear top. Why? Because everybody knows that black glass is better....
> In certain countries you cannot sell a high end tube amp unless the tubes have a very prominent tube glow.
> You get the idea....


Maybe, I have a Black Glass Ken Rad VT231 and a Clear Glass Ken Rad VT231. They both sound different to each other. I actually prefer the clear glass one ..lol, so yeah, you might have a good point here.


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Maybe, I have a Black Glass Ken Rad VT231 and a Clear Glass Ken Rad VT231. They both sound different to each other. I actually prefer the clear glass one ..lol, so yeah, you might have a good point here.


Funny you should mention the KenRad.  I have several Black Glass and Clear, and my Black Glass are quite a bit darker sounding.  I know, "they" say the sound the same, but not to my ears.  I have quite a few samples of both, to account for sample variation, as well.


----------



## JKDJedi

I got thrown off which thread we were on here...lol,  (with the black glass comment), I've never seen a black glass 6as7g, has anyone?


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> I got thrown off which thread we were on here...lol,  (with the black glass comment), I've never seen a black glass 6as7g, has anyone?


Me too. Sorry folks!


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Maybe, I have a Black Glass Ken Rad VT231 and a Clear Glass Ken Rad VT231. They both sound different to each other. I actually prefer the clear glass one ..lol, so yeah, you might have a good point here.


Sure looks like the KenRad on the right, is really a Sylvania with t plates.   So that might account for them sounding different.


----------



## Wes S

To those looking for some Cetron 7236, I know of a very reputable seller that has a few.  They are a bit pricey, but someone might still want one.  

https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> Sure looks like the KenRad on the right, is really a Sylvania with t plates.   So that might account for them sounding different.


🤔 Now you have me wondering, sure does look like a Sylvania . And taller too. I'll have to jump to the 6SN7 thread with this,


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> I saw an ad on ebay (the ad is over but my question remains) for a TS 5998 with the following information "A TV-7D / U checker was used to test for transconducatnce, shorts, gas and microphonics. The mutual conductance test values are: 71/64, minimum, passing is 40/40 ". Is this tube really good? What measurement value should it aim to be considered a NOS?



In addition to what @mordy said, with most Hickoks that show minimum values in their data charts (which includes TV-7's), the minimum value is 60% of the average NOS value.  So in this case, an average NOS reading would be about 67.  According to the sellers numbers, this tube tests pretty close to NOS and the triodes are pretty well balanced being within 10% of each other.  That said, here's the thing: there are few sellers out there with restored and calibrated testers.  I've rebuilt over 50 testers in the last several years from Hickoks to B&K's to Sencores to Westons, and they all have two things in common: 1) they're all over 50 years old, and 2) not a single one has worked exactly as it should or been in proper calibration when I first received it. Probably 25 of the 50 were advertised as "Works Perfect!!"  LOL! 

There are a couple sellers on Ebay that specify the tester used and when it was last rebuilt and/or calibrated (sometimes naming Dan Nelson as the rebuilder, who is one of the best in the biz). Or if they're using an Amplitrex or MaxiMatcher, those are a bit different as they are modern testers.  Beyond that and while anyone can lie, unless someone states what model tester they are using and when it was last rebuilt or calibrated, I consider whatever readings they provide to be totally meaningless. If the tube is cheap enough I may go for it regardless, but I'll never pay a premium (or above premium) price for a tube unless I'm comfortable with the information and subsequent quality of the test(s) performed.


----------



## mordy

Hi bcowen,
Thank you for that information - was always wondering why some people I respect say to disregard test values; now I know.
I have an old friend who is a retired A/V engineer. He told me that in the tube era a 10% variation between tubes was considered completely acceptable. What is your take on that?


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> Hi bcowen,
> Thank you for that information - was always wondering why some people I respect say to disregard test values; now I know.
> I have an old friend who is a retired A/V engineer. He told me that in the tube era a 10% variation between tubes was considered completely acceptable. What is your take on that?



I think that's pretty much spot on.  There was very little automation back then (referring to 30's - 50's and into the '60's) leading to more human involvement and subsequent inconsistency, and metallurgical purity and consistency was a far cry from what it is now. If nothing else, inconsistency creates variation.  These days most people consider GM output within 10% between triodes (in a dual triode tube) to be matched and balanced, so a 10% variation between tubes logically follows. 

For me there is value in test data as long as the test instrument is operating to specifications and operated correctly. Or said another way, I find value in my _own_ test values, but not a lot in those of many others.   .


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> I think that's pretty much spot on.  There was very little automation back then (referring to 30's - 50's and into the '60's) leading to more human involvement and subsequent inconsistency, and metallurgical purity and consistency was a far cry from what it is now. If nothing else, inconsistency creates variation.  These days most people consider GM output within 10% between triodes (in a dual triode tube) to be matched and balanced, so a 10% variation between tubes logically follows.
> 
> For me there is value in test data as long as the test instrument is operating to specifications and operated correctly. Or said another way, I find value in my _own_ test values, but not a lot in those of many others.   .


Thanks


----------



## cddc (Oct 16, 2020)

bcowen said:


> In addition to what @mordy said, with most Hickoks that show minimum values in their data charts (which includes TV-7's), the minimum value is 60% of the average NOS value.  So in this case, an average NOS reading would be about 67.  According to the sellers numbers, this tube tests pretty close to NOS and the triodes are pretty well balanced being within 10% of each other.  That said, here's the thing: there are few sellers out there with restored and calibrated testers.  I've rebuilt over 50 testers in the last several years from Hickoks to B&K's to Sencores to Westons, and they all have two things in common: 1) they're all over 50 years old, and 2) not a single one has worked exactly as it should or been in proper calibration when I first received it. Probably 25 of the 50 were advertised as "Works Perfect!!"  LOL!
> 
> There are a couple sellers on Ebay that specify the tester used and when it was last rebuilt and/or calibrated (sometimes naming Dan Nelson as the rebuilder, who is one of the best in the biz). Or if they're using an Amplitrex or MaxiMatcher, those are a bit different as they are modern testers.  Beyond that and while anyone can lie, unless someone states what model tester they are using and when it was last rebuilt or calibrated, I consider whatever readings they provide to be totally meaningless. If the tube is cheap enough I may go for it regardless, but I'll never pay a premium (or above premium) price for a tube unless I'm comfortable with the information and subsequent quality of the test(s) performed.




Good info @bcowen !


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> In addition to what @mordy said, with most Hickoks that show minimum values in their data charts (which includes TV-7's), the minimum value is 60% of the average NOS value.  So in this case, an average NOS reading would be about 67.  According to the sellers numbers, this tube tests pretty close to NOS and the triodes are pretty well balanced being within 10% of each other.  That said, here's the thing: there are few sellers out there with restored and calibrated testers.  I've rebuilt over 50 testers in the last several years from Hickoks to B&K's to Sencores to Westons, and they all have two things in common: 1) they're all over 50 years old, and 2) not a single one has worked exactly as it should or been in proper calibration when I first received it. Probably 25 of the 50 were advertised as "Works Perfect!!"  LOL!
> 
> There are a couple sellers on Ebay that specify the tester used and when it was last rebuilt and/or calibrated (sometimes naming Dan Nelson as the rebuilder, who is one of the best in the biz). Or if they're using an Amplitrex or MaxiMatcher, those are a bit different as they are modern testers.  Beyond that and while anyone can lie, unless someone states what model tester they are using and when it was last rebuilt or calibrated, I consider whatever readings they provide to be totally meaningless. If the tube is cheap enough I may go for it regardless, but I'll never pay a premium (or above premium) price for a tube unless I'm comfortable with the information and subsequent quality of the test(s) performed.



Thank you. Very enlightening answer.


----------



## LoryWiv

Wes S said:


> To those looking for some Cetron 7236, I know of a very reputable seller that has a few.  They are a bit pricey, but someone might still want one.
> 
> https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236


Pricier then the TS 7236 I've listed *here*. Sheesh.


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Pricier then the TS 7236 I've listed *here*. Sheesh.


Tung Sol does have a nice sound to it. It's quietly the Darkvoice favorite.


----------



## Wes S

LoryWiv said:


> Pricier then the TS 7236 I've listed *here*. Sheesh.


I am shocked no one has bought yours yet.  I would be all over them, if I was looking for some.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jun 16, 2020)

Wes S said:


> I am shocked no one has bought yours yet.  I would be all over them, if I was looking for some.


Well, she's here! Chatham JAN 6080WA gonna give her a quick spin 😁
edit: wow @Slade01 great tube. definitely  grabbing another one of these.


----------



## LoryWiv

Wes S said:


> I am shocked no one has bought yours yet.  I would be all over them, if I was looking for some.


I must say, given that they haven't sold I put them back in and they sound pretty terrific driven by Ken Rad VT231's. The 7236's somewhat analytic nature compliments the KR's warmth and the net result is quite nice. I'm going to listen a bit more this afternoon, may pull them from listing so perhaps it's just as well. Synergy is everything in this hobby!


----------



## adeadcrab

NOS prices don't exactly go down..


----------



## LoryWiv (Jun 17, 2020)

More time listening to the Tung-Sol 7236 has convinced me to hang on to them. I cleaned the pins with a touch of deoxit and they are quiet as a mouse. They pair well with lush-leaning drivers like Brimar and Ken Rad.


----------



## Wes S

LoryWiv said:


> More time listening to the Tung-Sol 7236 has convinced me to hang on to them. I cleaned the pins with a touch of deoxit and they are quiet as a mouse. They pair well with lush-leaning drivers like Brimar and Ken Rad.


Nice!  You just reminded me of a killer combo.  Today's roll in the BHC, will be the Tung Sol 7236 and Brimar CV1988.  Gonna be a fun day off, with just me and my headphones.


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Well, she's here! Chatham JAN 6080WA gonna give her a quick spin 😁
> edit: wow @Slade01 great tube. definitely  grabbing another one of these.


That was my first power tube I tried in my Bottlehead Crack, and I loved it.  It has a nice even and punchy sound to it.


----------



## fuzzroffe (Jun 18, 2020)

Spent a few dollars on tubes now so I hope they get here soon 
Cetron 7236
Tung-Sol 7236
Sylvania 7236
RCA 6AS7G

I don't expect much of a difference between the Tung-Sol and the Cetrons, but it's nice to have some spares.

They're going into my low-mu preamp:


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> Spent a few dollars on tubes now so I hope they get here soon
> Cetron 7236
> Tung-Sol 7236
> Sylvania 7236
> ...


What year are the RCA? and I'm really looking forward to your comparisons, nice grab.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> Nice!  You just reminded me of a killer combo.  Today's roll in the BHC, will be the Tung Sol 7236 and Brimar CV1988.  Gonna be a fun day off, with just me and my headphones.





Wes S said:


> That was my first power tube I tried in my Bottlehead Crack, and I loved it.  It has a nice even and punchy sound to it.


I'd love to have that Brimar! That one would be the cat's MeoW in my collection ..(small collection)  and yes the Chatham 6080...wow..caught me by a huge surprise, I didn't think a 6080 could do that!!


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> I'd love to have that Brimar! That one would be the cat's MeoW in my collection ..(small collection)  and yes the Chatham 6080...wow..caught me by a huge surprise, I didn't think a 6080 could do that!!


I remember having the same reaction as you with the Chatham 6080, and it really is a great tube.  The Brimar CV1988 black glass is a very special tube, and they are going for crazy amounts of money right now, but if you are patient you can find a good deal.


----------



## fuzzroffe

JKDJedi said:


> What year are the RCA? and I'm really looking forward to your comparisons, nice grab.


No idea what year it is, I ordered it from vacuumtubes.net along with the Tung-Sol and the Sylvania. I asked about Chatham 6AS7’s too but they were out of stock.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> I remember having the same reaction as you with the Chatham 6080, and it really is a great tube.  The Brimar CV1988 black glass is a very special tube, and they are going for crazy amounts of money right now, but if you are patient you can find a good deal.



So what's the difference between these two besides the silkscreening on the base?  Any?  Sad to say I'm such a slacker I haven't listened to either one yet...


----------



## bcowen

In case anyone is interested, these have been marked down by $25 (not my ad).  Look to be the real deal graphite plates...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-NIB-...281938?hash=item5daa30c712:g:iu0AAOSwADZe3Adr


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> So what's the difference between these two besides the silkscreening on the base?  Any?  Sad to say I'm such a slacker I haven't listened to either one yet...


Probably just the silk screening.. 😁. I'll take em if you don't want them. 🙃


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> So what's the difference between these two besides the silkscreening on the base?  Any?  Sad to say I'm such a slacker I haven't listened to either one yet...


Same tube.  Chatham was part of Tung Sol.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> Same tube.  Chatham was part of Tung Sol.


Tung-Sol was privately held and run like a laboratory. This gave Tung-Sol vacuum tubes a reputation of having some of the best metallurgy and chemistry in actual production.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> In case anyone is interested, these have been marked down by $25 (not my ad).  Look to be the real deal graphite plates...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-NIB-...281938?hash=item5daa30c712:g:iu0AAOSwADZe3Adr


Those are legit.


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> Tung-Sol was privately held and run like a laboratory. This gave Tung-Sol vacuum tubes a reputation of having some of the best metallurgy and chemistry in actual production.


They sure made killer tubes, back in the day!


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> They sure made killer tubes, back in the day!



I'm listening to some round gray plate TungSol 6J5's right now.  At this point, I like them better than the Sylvania round plates, the Pinnacle (Russian) flat plates, and the Brimar round plates (the Brimars were especially disappointing).  The TS's have that nice bass rhythm like the Pinnacles, but have more low level detail snd harmonic information in the mids.  Still breaking in, but so far they are sounding extremely nice.  Got a pair of Philco labeled ones the other day with round shiny black plates. Internally they look almost identical to the TS's, so entirely possible that TS made them. Looking forward to see how they differ sonically (if at all).


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Probably just the silk screening.. 😁. I'll take em if you don't want them. 🙃



I'm sure I'll hate them, so keep an eye on your mailbox.   NOT!


----------



## cddc (Dec 26, 2021)

nvm.


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> I have both, and they are very very close in sound.  I would suggest looking for the solid graphite plates, as they can be found cheaper.



Sure hope you're right on these, or you're going to have to go stand in the Pinnacle corner with @JKDJedi .   

Couldn't resist for the price, although the same can be said for most tubes I hoard _collect_.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 21, 2020)

I was going to recommend this listing to you, and then saw the tubes all sat crooked in their base.  I figured with your OCD that would prove problematic, but I guess I was wrong.   

Or was I?


----------



## raindownthunda

bcowen said:


> Sure hope you're right on these, or you're going to have to go stand in the Pinnacle corner with @JKDJedi .
> 
> Couldn't resist for the price, although the same can be said for most tubes I hoard _collect_.



I can vouch for this as well. I have several pairs of both the Bendix slotted plates and the Chatham solid plates and personally can’t tell a difference - they all sound fantastic! They were all made in the same factory by Bendix and rebranded. They do take longer to warm up though! Between 30-45 minutes before they sound their best. They are extremely rugged tubes and weigh twice as much as your average  6080. Some were used in guidance systems on ICBMs and can withstand 500 G of shock.


----------



## adeadcrab

raindownthunda said:


> I can vouch for this as well. I have several pairs of both the Bendix slotted plates and the Chatham solid plates and personally can’t tell a difference - they all sound fantastic! They were all made in the same factory by Bendix and rebranded. They do take longer to warm up though! Between 30-45 minutes before they sound their best. They are extremely rugged tubes and weigh twice as much as your average  6080. Some were used in guidance systems on ICBMs and can withstand 500 G of shock.


I love the slight 'tink' sound as the glass envelope slowly heats up and expands. Haven't heard bass or soundstage from any other tube..


----------



## bcowen

raindownthunda said:


> I can vouch for this as well. I have several pairs of both the Bendix slotted plates and the Chatham solid plates and personally can’t tell a difference - they all sound fantastic! They were all made in the same factory by Bendix and rebranded. They do take longer to warm up though! Between 30-45 minutes before they sound their best. They are extremely rugged tubes and weigh twice as much as your average  6080. Some were used in guidance systems on ICBMs and can withstand 500 G of shock.



Good to know. Thanks!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> ...but I guess I was wrong.
> 
> Or was I?



No, you're always pretty consistent.


----------



## Velozity

The Bendix not only take 30+ minutes to warm up each session, they also continue to get better the more you use them.  I liked mine the first few hours, loved them after 50 hours, and worship them after 150 hours.  None of my other power tubes can compare, to my tastes.  Even my GEC 6AS7G are a distant memory now.  Looking for a second pair of Bendix for the future.  And I'm going to try the Bendix 6384 adapted as an EL34 in my stereo rig.  I'm hoping for the same magic as the 6080.


----------



## cddc

I have a Bendix 6SN7 which sounds as crappy as GE, why? Because it has GE innards...lol


----------



## LoryWiv

Interesting 24 hours, as I received Thomson 6080's (1980) and tried with various drivers in my Feliks-Audio Elise. Clearly, the description on page 1 of this thread that 6080's have wide stage is true...pretty cool but with some music it almost felt unnaturally wide. The overall tonality was very pleasing, bass nice and tuneful, mids lush if not quite forward enough, but the thing I couldn't get past was somewhat rolled of treble. I may offer these up for sale but am interested in the experience of others. Is this pleasing but too polite treble a 6080 trait or might a Mullard, Tung-Sol or other manufacturer add just a bit o'sparkle without crossing over into fatiguing sibilance. I know Bendix are highly regarded but they are PRICEY...worth it?

Anyway, for now it's back to my Genalex Gold Lion new production KT88's with an 6AS7G adapter. Stage a bit lacking compared to the Thomson 6080 but frequencies just right across the spectrum. Suggestions for my next 6080 venture would be appreciated!


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Sure hope you're right on these, or you're going to have to go stand in the Pinnacle corner with @JKDJedi .
> 
> Couldn't resist for the price, although the same can be said for most tubes I hoard _collect_.


Nice!  If you don’t like them and they don’t have any issues, I will buy them from you.   I love that tube, and look forward to hearing your impressions.


----------



## Wes S

LoryWiv said:


> Interesting 24 hours, as I received Thomson 6080's (1980) and tried with various drivers in my Feliks-Audio Elise. Clearly, the description on page 1 of this thread that 6080's have wide stage is true...pretty cool but with some music it almost felt unnaturally wide. The overall tonality was very pleasing, bass nice and tuneful, mids lush if not quite forward enough, but the thing I couldn't get past was somewhat rolled of treble. I may offer these up for sale but am interested in the experience of others. Is this pleasing but too polite treble a 6080 trait or might a Mullard, Tung-Sol or other manufacturer add just a bit o'sparkle without crossing over into fatiguing sibilance. I know Bendix are highly regarded but they are PRICEY...worth it?
> 
> Anyway, for now it's back to my Genalex Gold Lion new production KT88's with an 6AS7G adapter. Stage a bit lacking compared to the Thomson 6080 but frequencies just right across the spectrum. Suggestions for my next 6080 venture would be appreciated!


The Bendix 6080WB graphite plate, sounds leagues better than any other regular 6080.  The Bendix have stellar air, seperation and extension in the treble.


----------



## whirlwind

bcowen said:


> Sure hope you're right on these, or you're going to have to go stand in the Pinnacle corner with @JKDJedi .
> 
> Couldn't resist for the price, although the same can be said for most tubes I hoard _collect_.




These are great sounding power tubes...some of the best and built very rugged.
Some have thicker ceramic mica's than others, but they all sound good.


----------



## SHIMACM

My Chatham 6as7g arrived and I have a question for you. Compared to my RCA JAN 6as7g I had to open the volume by 30% to reach the same volume that I had with the RCA. This is normal?


----------



## Wes S

SHIMACM said:


> My Chatham 6as7g arrived and I have a question for you. Compared to my RCA JAN 6as7g I had to open the volume by 30% to reach the same volume that I had with the RCA. This is normal?


30% difference seems quite high to me, and especially since they are both 6AS7G.  Makes me think the Chatham might be a weak testing tube.  My volume on the Bottlehead Crack stays the exact same or very close (within 5%), when using different brands of the same tube type.  I am sure others will chime in, but that sure seems odd to me.


----------



## Ripper2860

+1 -- That definitely sounds like a low measuring tube.


----------



## SHIMACM

Another different thing that I'm noticing at Chatham is when it starts to heat up it starts to make little crackles. The other 6as7g tubes I have do not crack when heating. Is this also normal in this tube?


----------



## bcowen (Jun 23, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Another different thing that I'm noticing at Chatham is when it starts to heat up it starts to make little crackles. The other 6as7g tubes I have do not crack when heating. Is this also normal in this tube?



Are you talking crackling or more like a 'tinking' sound (like you're lightly tapping the glass with a piece of metal)?  The latter is not unusual and not necessarily any indication of a problem. Crackling?  I guess it all depends on exactly what it sounds like and how loud it is. 

However, as @Wes S and @Ripper2860 have noted a 6AS7G is a 6AS7G and should have (with perhaps some slight variation) the same amount of gain regardless of the brand or manufacturer.  Sounds to me like you got a badly worn (or worn out) tube.  Did the seller provide any test data and relevant info about the tester's minimum or standard NOS value for that tube?


----------



## cddc

I agree, the 'tinking' sound is normal. The components inside a tube will expand when being heated by tube heater, some will make 'tinking' sound some will not. But it's all normal phenomena. Likewise, you will hear the same sound when turning off your amp.


----------



## LoryWiv

SHIMACM said:


> Another different thing that I'm noticing at Chatham is when it starts to heat up it starts to make little crackles. The other 6as7g tubes I have do not crack when heating. Is this also normal in this tube?


My Tung-sol 7236 crackle sometimes when warming up but the key is it's gone by 1 or2 minutes, rarely recurs, so I don't worry about it.


----------



## adeadcrab

One of my Bendix 6080WB did a mini-arc/pop once while warming up the first time I plugged it in, I don't think they are NOS but they're rated to last for basically forever.. after that I cleaned the tube pins with deoxit red, wiped all the gunk off so the pins were clean and coated with deoxit gold, those tubes were in use many times after for several years. Waiting on new amp but will test them again.


----------



## SHIMACM

The noises are really tinkling, which happen when I turn the amplifier on and off. Good to know that it is not a problem. Now, regarding the volume, after resting my hearing and doing new tests at night, I realized that the difference in volume opening was below 10%. I think that in the afternoon, my hearing was fatigued, as I had listened to music at high volume for more than an hour on my solid state amplifier (Arcam rHead), and I did not compare Chatham with RCA at the same time (as in Darkvoice I always listen to music at 9 o'clock, I didn't feel the need to take RCA and listen to it immediately after Chatham). It relieves me a lot. Thanks for the quick responses from the community.


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Are you talking crackling or more like a 'tinking' sound (like you're lightly tapping the glass with a piece of metal)?  The latter is not unusual and not necessarily any indication of a problem. Crackling?  I guess it all depends on exactly what it sounds like and how loud it is.
> 
> However, as @Wes S and @Ripper2860 have noted a 6AS7G is a 6AS7G and should have (with perhaps some slight variation) the same amount of gain regardless of the brand or manufacturer.  Sounds to me like you got a badly worn (or worn out) tube.  Did the seller provide any test data and relevant info about the tester's minimum or standard NOS value for that tube?



In his ad, he just gave the information he tested hard. As he has 19,000 qualifications and all positive, I trusted him.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> The noises are really tinkling, which happen when I turn the amplifier on and off. Good to know that it is not a problem. Now, regarding the volume, after resting my hearing and doing new tests at night, I realized that the difference in volume opening was below 10%. I think that in the afternoon, my hearing was fatigued, as I had listened to music at high volume for more than an hour on my solid state amplifier (Arcam rHead), and I did not compare Chatham with RCA at the same time (as in Darkvoice I always listen to music at 9 o'clock, I didn't feel the need to take RCA and listen to it immediately after Chatham). It relieves me a lot. Thanks for the quick responses from the community.



Well that explains it then:  the solid state listening killed your ears.  Fortunately they will recover, unlike a worn out tube.


----------



## SHIMACM

What do you think of the measurement of this TS5998?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353113741375?ul_noapp=true


----------



## Dogmatrix

SHIMACM said:


> What do you think of the measurement of this TS5998?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/353113741375?ul_noapp=true


All you can take from that is the tube functions and the balance is ok
With 5998 and related tubes a good indicator is the presence or not of carbon in the lower section below the bottom mica , a tube that has led a hard life will display a noticeable grey black tint in that area . Many sellers photograph tubes on a black background to disguise this


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> What do you think of the measurement of this TS5998?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/353113741375?ul_noapp=true



I would say those are great measurements if the seller is being honest.  I don't have any 5998's, but many of the 6080's and 6AS7's I've tested on my Hickok give well above average NOS readings.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Another different thing that I'm noticing at Chatham is when it starts to heat up it starts to make little crackles. The other 6as7g tubes I have do not crack when heating. Is this also normal in this tube?


Might be the tube is so new that it needs some burn in. Same thing happens to some of my tubes. And our amps aren't the best out there, the transformer is a 110v attached to an amp wired for 120v so things can get a little wonky while it's warming up. For me once warmed up all is good. Holy cow...I haven't been getting any notification on this thread .  Grabbing another cup of coffee and catch up here😁


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Sure hope you're right on these, or you're going to have to go stand in the Pinnacle corner with @JKDJedi .
> 
> Couldn't resist for the price, although the same can be said for most tubes I hoard _collect_.


You grabbed them!! L O L.. wow impressions please!!! NICE!


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Interesting 24 hours, as I received Thomson 6080's (1980) and tried with various drivers in my Feliks-Audio Elise. Clearly, the description on page 1 of this thread that 6080's have wide stage is true...pretty cool but with some music it almost felt unnaturally wide. The overall tonality was very pleasing, bass nice and tuneful, mids lush if not quite forward enough, but the thing I couldn't get past was somewhat rolled of treble. I may offer these up for sale but am interested in the experience of others. Is this pleasing but too polite treble a 6080 trait or might a Mullard, Tung-Sol or other manufacturer add just a bit o'sparkle without crossing over into fatiguing sibilance. I know Bendix are highly regarded but they are PRICEY...worth it?
> 
> Anyway, for now it's back to my Genalex Gold Lion new production KT88's with an 6AS7G adapter. Stage a bit lacking compared to the Thomson 6080 but frequencies just right across the spectrum. Suggestions for my next 6080 venture would be appreciated!


Mullards are probably the warmest 6080 out there, major treble roll off... might be an inherited thing with 6080s


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> You grabbed them!! L O L.. wow impressions please!!! NICE!



I sure will...if I ever get them.  They're swirling within the USPS black hole right now, unfortunately.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 27, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Mullards are probably the warmest 6080 out there, major treble roll off... might be an inherited thing with 6080s


This is might be true, except for the one and only Bendix 6080WB Graphite Plate.  Absolutely, no roll off on either end with the Bendix 6080WB.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 27, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Mullards are probably the warmest 6080 out there, major treble roll off... might be an inherited thing with 6080s



Hmmmm....  I'm sure there are many variations of the Mullard 6080 as with most other manufacturers, but the one I have I wouldn't describe as having major treble roll off.  Soft?  Yes.  I'd probably describe it more as 'friendly' and being very easy on the ears, but it still has detail and air and delicacy up top.  Warm sounding overall to be sure though.  Maybe I just lucked out and got a good version.  Too, the partnering tube is critical.  I didn't like the ribbed Foton 6N8S with the Cetron 7236 at all -- just too aggressive and almost fatiguing in the treble.  But the Foton sounds very nice with the Mullard as do the Pinnacle (Russian) 6J5's.  The round plate Tung Sol 6J5's also partner well.  I can imagine that a warm sounding 6SN7 (or variant) like a gray glass RCA would be a definite 'not good' partner for the Mullard, but a more treble-forward (or even slightly aggressive) driver tube can make the Mullard I have sound quite good. To be totally upfront though I'm (personally) more interested in a treble presentation that is easy to listen to and never fatiguing. I don't want something that's obviously rolled or shelved off, but I'll give up a little extension and uber-detail for something I can listen to all day without any hint of fatigue or aggression.  And then there are some that will suggest that my normal listening fare isn't really even music anyway.


----------



## cddc

I agree with @bcowen , I wouldn't describe Mulluard 6080 as having major treble roll-off either (maybe I have a different version too ). Warm? For sure, Mullard is famous for being warm . I will say Mullard 6080 has a very delicate balanced sound, smooth mids and warm, a very easy going tube for long listening sessions.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I agree with @bcowen , I wouldn't describe Mulluard 6080 as having major treble roll-off either (maybe I have a different version too ). Warm? For sure, Mullard is famous for being warm . I will say Mullard 6080 has a very delicate balanced sound, smooth mids and warm, a very easy going tube for long listening sessions.


Works well with bright headphones 👍 Beyerdynamic, and maybe Grado.


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> My Tung-sol 7236 crackle sometimes when warming up but the key is it's gone by 1 or2 minutes, rarely recurs, so I don't worry about it.


Well...I was thinking it was just my amp that behaved like this... same here, few of my tubes snap crackle and pop sometimes. Could be (and mentioned before here and there, which thread is this... o.O) anyways...could be dirty pins,dirty sockets, both? or just electrons settling inside the tube and the amp.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Well...I was thinking it was just my amp that behaved like this... same here, few of my tubes snap crackle and pop sometimes. Could be (and mentioned before here and there, which thread is this... o.O) anyways...could be dirty pins,dirty sockets, both? or just electrons settling inside the tube and the amp.



Perhaps you should stop sourcing your tubes from boxes of Rice Krispies.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Perhaps you should stop sourcing your tubes from boxes of Rice Krispies.


Lol... I'm tempted to sell some.. i had a setback with some parts that I need for my bike....and carbon cranks are not cheap.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jun 28, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Well...I was thinking it was just my amp that behaved like this... same here, few of my tubes snap crackle and pop sometimes. Could be (and mentioned before here and there, which thread is this... o.O) anyways...could be dirty pins,dirty sockets, both? or just electrons settling inside the tube and the amp.


It never hurts to re-flow solder in tube pins if cleaning the pins and sockets does not help. If the symptom returns later, replacing solder is another option. I fixed a winged C yesterday by replacing solder.

Oh yeah and a Russian friend explained 6h5c and 6h13C are the same tube. The former is an earlier version of the same tube and sometimes more sought after but they are identical. I own a bunch of each and I can tell no difference.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Ordered a couple of 7236 tubes from the store on Etsy, but there’s been no updates on my order for two weeks, still saying not shipped, and I get no response on my messages to the seller. Just in case anyone else thought about ordering...


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> Ordered a couple of 7236 tubes from the store on Etsy, but there’s been no updates on my order for two weeks, still saying not shipped, and I get no response on my messages to the seller. Just in case anyone else thought about ordering...


Getting weirdest as the weeks go by, I had to have eBay intervene on a purchase, and not the sellers fault. He lost a tube, but seems like he keeps the monies and I get a refund. Ebay ate that one.


----------



## Ripper2860

fuzzroffe said:


> Ordered a couple of 7236 tubes from the store on Etsy, but there’s been no updates on my order for two weeks, still saying not shipped, and I get no response on my messages to the seller. Just in case anyone else thought about ordering...



I really think that is the same guy that was selling Cetron 7236 tubes on eBay since the eBay listing pic and Etsy pic were the same.  Last I saw he had his whole lot up for sale (qty 60) and it seems when he sold pulled all his 1 and 2 tube listings.  I think that Etsy was not his primary venue and he has forgotten to pull the listing.  It's probably an orphan. 

Have they taken money for the Etsy sale or is it just hanging in la-la land?


----------



## fuzzroffe

Ripper2860 said:


> I really think that is the same guy that was selling Cetron 7236 tubes on eBay since the eBay listing pic and Etsy pic were the same.  Last I saw he had his whole lot up for sale (qty 60) and it seems when he sold pulled all his 1 and 2 tube listings.  I think that Etsy was not his primary venue and he has forgotten to pull the listing.  It's probably an orphan.
> 
> Have they taken money for the Etsy sale or is it just hanging in la-la land?


Yeah, I think it’s the same guy. The payment has gone through, so I sent a new message today asking for any info. If I don’t get a response in a couple of days I’ll just file a case with Etsy.


----------



## adeadcrab

someone already posted it but this has been in my bookmarks for a while, once you start buying tubes you don't stop...

https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236

$200 AUD a pair, a hi-fi store in Australia is selling matched pairs for $240 AUD with free shipping, so I might check them out if you all buy the stock from tubeworldexpress


----------



## bcowen

adeadcrab said:


> someone already posted it but this has been in my bookmarks for a while, once you start buying tubes you don't stop...
> 
> https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236
> 
> $200 AUD a pair, a hi-fi store in Australia is selling matched pairs for $240 AUD with free shipping, so I might check them out if you all buy the stock from tubeworldexpress



I almost feel bad I bought a bunch of the Cetrons for $25 each on Ebay a couple months ago.  Almost.


----------



## adeadcrab

It does make you feel selfish, with 4 pairs of 7236, 2 pairs of the bendix 6080WB, 2 pairs of 6AS7GA, handfuls and handfuls of svetland 6h13C.. but these tubes don't have an unlimited lifespan so get them while you can I say!


----------



## Ripper2860

adeadcrab said:


> but these tubes don't have an unlimited lifespan so get them while you can I say!



What????!!!!    @bcowen told me they last forever and not to worry about buying more than one of anything!


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> What????!!!!    @bcowen told me they last forever and not to worry about buying more than one of anything!




That's why @bcowen bought a bunch of 7236's while you only bought one ....LOL....just kidding


----------



## cddc

adeadcrab said:


> It does make you feel selfish, with 4 pairs of 7236, 2 pairs of the bendix 6080WB, 2 pairs of 6AS7GA, handfuls and handfuls of svetland 6h13C.. but these tubes don't have an unlimited lifespan so get them while you can I say!




That's a nice collection of tubes, I figured it's yours, correct?


----------



## Ripper2860

cddc said:


> That's why @bcowen bought a bunch of 7236's while you only bought one ....LOL....just kidding



I will neither confirm nor deny.


----------



## adeadcrab

cddc said:


> That's a nice collection of tubes, I figured it's yours, correct?


yeah that's my collection.. bought my OTL amp years ago and found a couple nice deals. Can't find any bendix tubes anywhere nowadays..


----------



## JackSkully

Hey guys I have 3 Mullard 6080 tested and working that I got from a good friend who was moving how much do they go for individually.
Also they are not rebranded and have a metal base


----------



## adeadcrab

I was just checking out the 5998 market - as I don't have any (yet!) - Mullard/Philips "6080" go for 220 a pair....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...354902?hash=item3cdbe68316:g:6fYAAOSwnHZYfOVS


----------



## Wes S (Jul 2, 2020)

adeadcrab said:


> I was just checking out the 5998 market - as I don't have any (yet!) - Mullard/Philips "6080" go for 220 a pair....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...354902?hash=item3cdbe68316:g:6fYAAOSwnHZYfOVS


That is a bit on the high side, and the can be found easily for $100 - $150 a pair.  Of course there are always sellers on eBay with ridiculous prices.


----------



## SHIMACM

Is the Tung-sol 5998 a tube of 5000 hours or 10000 hours of life?


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> I was just checking out the 5998 market - as I don't have any (yet!) - Mullard/Philips "6080" go for 220 a pair....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...354902?hash=item3cdbe68316:g:6fYAAOSwnHZYfOVS


A few of us found our 5998 on the cheap...I mean very cheap compared to asking prices.. just have to be on the "hunt" for them.


----------



## bcowen

adeadcrab said:


> I was just checking out the 5998 market - as I don't have any (yet!) - Mullard/Philips "6080" go for 220 a pair....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...354902?hash=item3cdbe68316:g:6fYAAOSwnHZYfOVS



I bought the one I'm using now for $49. Tested right at NOS levels.  As with every other tube I'm sure there are versions that are more desirable than others and command higher prices, but I don't know enough about the different versions to comment. I quite like the one I have though.


----------



## adeadcrab

Are Mullard 6080s on the warmer side? Any impressions or comparisons?


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> Are Mullard 6080s on the warmer side? Any impressions or comparisons?


Yes!!


----------



## Ripper2860

Snagged for $24.50 / pair + shipping.  From UK and passed through NY processing center, so hopefully soon I'll be able comment soon.  Never heard a NOS Mullard I didn't like.


----------



## adeadcrab

Haha, I remembered the search feature and am looking back through this thread


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Snagged for $24.50 / pair + shipping.  From UK and passed through NY processing center, so hopefully soon I'll be able comment soon.  Never heard a NOS Mullard I didn't like.


How in the world!? $24.50!? Wow...


----------



## Ripper2860

Lightning fast closing bid.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Snagged for $24.50 / pair + shipping.  From UK and passed through NY processing center, so hopefully soon I'll be able comment soon.  Never heard a NOS Mullard I didn't like.



I've heard lots of NOS Mullards I don't like. Start with 12AU7's and variants, then go to 6DJ8's, even the venerable EL-34 sounds like a marshmallow. You know, like one you held over the fire too long and the goo starts dripping out.    I do, however, like the 6080 quite much, and the CV378 (GZ-37) rectifier is also superb.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 2, 2020)

I like marshmallows, smores, and the "Highly Regarded" Mullard CV4003s you sold me.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I like marshmallows, smores, and the "Highly Regarded" Mullard CV4003s you sold me.



I have lots more of those if you need some more highly regarded tubes.   I *do* like them better than GE's, so there's that. LOL!


----------



## Ripper2860

Mullard CV4003s are the Frankies of the noval tube world.


----------



## JKDJedi

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353120413231

Not mine,


----------



## LoryWiv

adeadcrab said:


> Are Mullard 6080s on the warmer side? Any impressions or comparisons?


That is definitely their rep. What might be a bit more neutral: Tung-Sol, Telefunken, others?


----------



## adeadcrab

7236 is universally the leanest and most solid-state . I like the Russian 6H13C - they are just a little warmer (IIRC ?) than the 7236 but still a very honest tonal presentation. Or the 6N13P too..


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> That is definitely their rep. What might be a bit more neutral: Tung-Sol, Telefunken, others?


I can vouch for Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 as more neutral compared to the Mullards. And if the Tung Sol are anything like the Chatham, no not neutral, maybe even warmer than the Mullards.


----------



## JKDJedi

Now Telefunken is intriguing... Hmm...great, another tube hunt.  No just go to bed, you have enough already, good night folks


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 3, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I can vouch for Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 as more neutral compared to the Mullards. And if the Tung Sol are anything like the Chatham, no not neutral, maybe even warmer than the Mullards.



Snagged a Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 and have been listening to it over the last day. Very reminiscent of the Sylvania 7236, but maybe a tad warmer.  Pairs nicely with a warm-ish driver tube.

Have a couple of Graphite Plate Chatham 6080s that should be here around Monday.  Very anxious to compare them against what I already have.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Snagged a Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 and have been listening to it over the last day. Very reminiscent of the Sylvania 7236, but maybe a tad warmer.  Pairs nicely with a warm-ish driver tube.
> 
> Have a couple of Graphite Plate Chatham 6080s that should be here around Monday.  Very anxious to compare them against what I already have.


Nice!  The graphite plate Chathams are beast of tubes.  They are so heavy it is crazy.  Literally built like tanks.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/353120413231
> 
> Not mine,



Enabler.  You probably invite AA members to meet you at a bar.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Snagged a Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 and have been listening to it over the last day. Very reminiscent of the Sylvania 7236, but maybe a tad warmer.  Pairs nicely with a warm-ish driver tube.
> 
> Have a couple of Graphite Plate Chatham 6080s that should be here around Monday.  Very anxious to compare them against what I already have.



Some very nice person sent me a Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 that I haven't had a chance to listen to yet.  Dangit.  I need to take a week's vacation just to listen to the unlistened stash.  Wait....I keep forgetting what _vacation_ is.  Anybody know?


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Snagged a Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 and have been listening to it over the last day. Very reminiscent of the Sylvania 7236, but maybe a tad warmer.  Pairs nicely with a warm-ish driver tube.
> 
> Have a couple of Graphite Plate Chatham 6080s that should be here around Monday.  Very anxious to compare them against what I already have.


The two Sylvania are almost carbon copy in build.. did a search here on the thread and it seems like the Bendix 6080 is the threads favorite, one user went as far as saying the Bendix 6080 sounded like the 5998.


----------



## Ripper2860

Woohoo!!  A few days early.  Pristine, balanced and strong.  Time to listen!!

(One of these babies.  The other looks just as nice.)


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Woohoo!!  A few days early.  Pristine, balanced and strong.  Time to listen!!
> 
> (One of these babies.  The other looks just as nice.)



Hoarder.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 4, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The two Sylvania are almost carbon copy in build.. did a search here on the thread and it seems like the Bendix 6080 is the threads favorite, one user went as far as saying the Bendix 6080 sounded like the 5998.


I am one of those people.  The Bendix 6080 WB sound better than the 5988.  The bass impact, seperation of instruments and air, are superior to the 5998 in my opinion.  The 5998 is really good, but the Bendix is better all the way, in my system.


----------



## adeadcrab

*unbookmarks 5 x 5998 tubes ebay listing*


----------



## Wes S

adeadcrab said:


> *unbookmarks 5 x 5998 tubes ebay listing*


LOL!  The 5988 is still a great tube, and many love it.  However, for me the Bendix 6080WB is the one in my amp, while my 5998's are collecting dust.


----------



## bcowen

adeadcrab said:


> *unbookmarks 5 x 5998 tubes ebay listing*



ROFL!!!


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> I am one of those people.  The Bendix 6080 WB sound better than the 5988.  The bass impact, seperation of instruments and air, are superior to the 5998 in my opinion.  The 5998 is really good, but the Bendix is better all the way, in my system.



I have some confidential and super-secret information from another HeadFi'er that would agree with your assessment.  I can't say more at this time or I will be killed.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> I am one of those people.  The Bendix 6080 WB sound better than the 5988.  The bass impact, seperation of instruments and air, are superior to the 5998 in my opinion.  The 5998 is really good, but the Bendix is better all the way, in my system.


Well, with that. Having one coming in soon. So we'll see. 😁


----------



## Ripper2860

Note to self:  Sell kidney and add Bendix 6080 to list of must-have tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Note to self:  Sell kidney and add Bendix 6080 to list of must-have tubes.


Well the one I grabbed is one of them to good to be true scenarios. I'll PM you the link


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> Well the one I grabbed is one of them to good to be true scenarios. I'll PM you the link


Please add me to PM if it won't violate ethics or get you sued!!! I want a pair for Elise but would have to sell both kidenys at the prices I've seen!


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Please add me to PM if it won't violate ethics or get you sued!!! I want a pair for Elise but would have to sell both kidenys at the prices I've seen!


So there's a story that's ongoing with this, I'm waiting to settle this from both parties involved. That hunch I had about the price being to good to be true ....yeah.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> So there's a story that's ongoing with this, I'm waiting to settle this from both parties involved. That hunch I had about the price being to good to be true ....yeah.


Sorry if this proves to be false hope ...live to tube roll another day though!


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> Sorry if this proves to be false hope ...live to tube roll another day though!



On it! 😁


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Sorry if this proves to be false hope ...live to tube roll another day though!



+1 on that.  I gave up on that TooGoodToBeTrue.not site a long time ago.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> On it! 😁



Aww, man....I thought you were talking about a Bendix, not a Zenith with dual Dish network receivers.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 4, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Aww, man....I thought you were talking about a Bendix, not a Zenith with dual Dish network receivers.


   .. that's coming later! Just embarrassed I fell for the Datsmeestore scam.. I mean the name says it all! oh well, I tried.  Dish network receivers...lol!!
(They've been reported to the Better Business Bureau)


----------



## adeadcrab

For those who are scared of tube prices.... I have a couple pairs of Bendix (Tung-Sol rebrand) 6080WB through pure luck, checking my receipts it was $300 USD for the quad... in 2015... now they are even more difficult to find. If you can find 'em.. I'm not saying spend thousands and thousands on them, but you may regret it later if they're gone forever!

Keep rollin'


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> For those who are scared of tube prices.... I have a couple pairs of Bendix (Tung-Sol rebrand) 6080WB through pure luck, checking my receipts it was $300 USD for the quad... in 2015... now they are even more difficult to find. If you can find 'em.. I'm not saying spend thousands and thousands on them, but you may regret it later if they're gone forever!
> 
> Keep rollin'


Only because @bcowen horded them all, have you seen his closet?


----------



## adeadcrab

Don't hate the player, hate the game


----------



## Ripper2860

One can hate both the player and the game.  It is allowed.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Only because @bcowen horded them all, have you seen his closet?



LOL!  If I had as many Bendix 6080's as Fotons, I'd be out shopping for an island to buy. )


----------



## bcowen

adeadcrab said:


> Don't hate the player, hate the game



   I only hate solid state, so I'm safe.  Well, at least until all the tubes are gone.


----------



## JKDJedi

So this is the super rare Bendix that questionable site is sending me. They said that they're very few of them out there.  .I can't wait!


----------



## Ripper2860

Woohoo!!!   I'm getting a Bendix brake hose!!!!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> So this is the super rare Bendix that questionable site is sending me. They said that they're very few of them out there.  .I can't wait!



ROFL!!   I'm assuming you've already ordered an adapter from @Deyan ?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!   I'm assuming you've already ordered an adapter from @Deyan ?


😂😂😂 What wait....these need an adapter!?


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Woohoo!!!   I'm getting a Bendix brake hose!!!!


If it's a freakn GE I will on a stack of Bible's ship it to Bcowen... 😂😂


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂 What wait....these need an adapter!?




Of course, you need a spiraltal-to-octal adapter


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> If it's a freakn GE I will on a stack of Bible's ship it to Bcowen... 😂😂



  

I don't see any etched dots on it, so a pretty good sign it's NOT a GE.  Probably made in China though right next to the plant that makes Texas BBQ.


----------



## adeadcrab

JKDJedi said:


> So this is the super rare Bendix that questionable site is sending me. They said that they're very few of them out there.  .I can't wait!


very funny...


----------



## adeadcrab

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pair-Be...m289766d4b4:g:yXQAAOSw9IpfAaCi&frcectupt=true

Starting bid is double what I paid for matched quads 5 years ago... get 'em if you can!


Tubes are like Bitcoin... but that's another can of worms


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 6, 2020)

adeadcrab said:


> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pair-Be...m289766d4b4:g:yXQAAOSw9IpfAaCi&frcectupt=true
> 
> Starting bid is double what I paid for matched quads 5 years ago... get 'em if you can!
> 
> ...


And in 2010, on this very thread, some dude bought a Bendix made tube for $7 and change. O.o what's this world come too?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 6, 2020)

Arrrrrrgh!!! Got my 2x Mullard 6080s today. One tested wonderfully and is in my amp now. The other one flared as soon as it was placed in the tester and one section is totally out!! 

The working one sounds wonderful, BTW. 

Good Mullard in Amp / Bad Mullard in Tester.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 6, 2020)

Well, it seems today is a good tube day.  Scored a Canadian Marconi 6AS7G a few weeks ago for $7.50 USD.  Listed as NIB/NOS, but you know how that goes.  Got it in today in original box and very clean pins.  Threw it on the tester and it almost pegs the meter on my BK 700 tester -- very NOS and balanced at 118/118 (out of 120/120).  So I know that Canadian Marconi did not actually make tubes and had relationships with many tube MFG, so off I went on a discovery tour researching images of GE (Bill said it was a GE, of course), RCA, Sylvania, and Chatham/Tung-Sol.  Did not match up structurally with any of the 1st three, but a dead ringer for the Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G.  Sometimes a blind squirrel will find an acorn.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 6, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, it seems today is a good tube day.  Scored a Canadian Marconi 6AS7G a few weeks ago for $7.50 USD.  Listed as NIB/NOS, but you know how that goes.  Got it in today in original and very clean pins.  Threw it on the tester and it almost pegs the meter on my BK 700 tester -- very NOS and balanced at 118/118 (out of 120/120).  So I know that Canadian Marconi did not actually make tubes and had relationships with many tube MFG, so off I went on a discovery tour researching images of GE (Bill said it was a GE, of course), RCA, Sylvania, and Chatham/Tung-Sol.  Did not match up structurally with any of the 1st three, but a dead ringer for the Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G.  Sometimes a blind squirrel will find an acorn.


Aww man... Struck gold on that one, nice grab! I've been on the hunt for a steal on that tube and I don't think I'd can beat that one.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, it seems today is a good tube day.  Scored a Canadian Marconi 6AS7G a few weeks ago for $7.50 USD.  Listed as NIB/NOS, but you know how that goes.  Got it in today in original box and very clean pins.  Threw it on the tester and it almost pegs the meter on my BK 700 tester -- very NOS and balanced at 118/118 (out of 120/120).  So I know that Canadian Marconi did not actually make tubes and had relationships with many tube MFG, so off I went on a discovery tour researching images of GE (Bill said it was a GE, of course), RCA, Sylvania, and Chatham/Tung-Sol.  Did not match up structurally with any of the 1st three, but a dead ringer for the Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G.  Sometimes a blind squirrel will find an acorn.


Nice score!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Arrrrrrgh!!! Got my 2x Mullard 6080s today. One tested wonderfully and is in my amp now. The other one flared as soon as it was placed in the tester and one section is totally out!!
> 
> The working one sounds wonderful, BTW.
> 
> Good Mullard in Amp / Bad Mullard in Tester.



Probably tester operator error.  

Funny, the Hickok specs a 7.5v filament voltage for testing 6080 and 6AS7G types. Rather strange for a 6.3v heater tube, but I'm going to make a blind assumption they knew more about test parameters than me.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 7, 2020)

What's the story on the RCA Bottom D getter tubes vs the top getter ones? I use to own a couple of the top getter versions and sampled one a few weeks back, none really impressed me that much, I mean they were good, until I compared them to an RCA Bottom D getter tube. I didn't even notice the differences (in build) until this evening (studying pics online). Were early versions(RCA 6AS7G) all bottom getter builds? or vise a versa?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-RCA-6AS7...rentrq:2c80c90b1730a9e53842610fffee2d42|iid:1


----------



## Ripper2860

Strangely enough, I only own one RCA 6AS7G and it's a bottom D getter.  I thought that was the only way they came, but after reading your post I did a search and damned if there's not a top getter versions.  Not sure where the cut-off is, but I think the older ones (40s) were the bottom getter.  The bottom getter RCA 6AS7G is a nice sounding tube, so I can understand why you like it.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Strangely enough, I only own one RCA 6AS7G and it's a bottom D getter.  I thought that was the only way they came, but after reading your post I did a search and damned if there's not a top getter versions.  Not sure where the cut-off is, but I think the older ones (40s) were the bottom getter.  The bottom getter RCA 6AS7G is a nice sounding tube, so I can understand why you like it.


Lol.. I was studying what the difference was between 6AS7g builds , didn't know Raytheon was in the mix ( probably an RCA) and wanted to ask you about the Chatham tube you got, all I could tell what was different was below the bottom mica. And then saw some RCA and studied them for a bit know that some favored the old black plate versions over the grey plated version, pulled my one RCA tube out studied it....then saw that it was a bottom geter.... o.O Surprised. Saw a few National 6AS7g tubes out there with the familiar Cwinged flying saucer getters at the bottom, so thinking the National are basically C Winged tubes... Anyways... blabbing again..


----------



## JKDJedi

The Bendix Corporation began with the Eclipse-Pioneer Division in Teteboro New Jersey late 40's (I always thought they were European before finding that out) moved to a new division in 1951, the Red Bank Division. Any tubes marked with the TE were made from the first division, in Teteboro. 

Safe to say, the Bendix 6080WB were all made at the Red Bank Division?


----------



## JKDJedi

Used as Voltage Regulators and Computer use .. how the heck did one figure out these were good for audio use!? And is there such thing as a 6As7g (5998, 7236, etc) tube that was made with HI Fi use exclusively?


----------



## cddc

LOL...take it easy....6080 and 6AS7G were indeed designed as voltage regulators. But later audiophile found them a good candidate for OTL amps, as their impedances are low enough to be used in OTL amps.


----------



## cddc

If tube impedance is too high, you will have to use an output transformer to bring it down.


----------



## cddc

As for as I know, KT66 / KT77 / KT88 were initially designed for audio use, but they need output transformers.

6SN7 was also designed for audio use.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> As for as I know, KT66 / KT77 / KT88 were initially designed for audio use, but they need output transformers.
> 
> 6SN7 was also designed for audio use.


I just got this book so some of this stuff is mind blowing, the 6SN7GT were made for Radar Synchronizer of WW II.. O.o and three were found in every TV set between 1948-52. O.o
In 1946 one computer used 6550 6SN7GT tubes to run. (ENIAC computers)


----------



## cddc

You are right. 6SN7 was widely used during the WW II, after the war it was also widely used in all kinds of applications - TVs, radios, amps, etc. One of the most widely used tubes of all time. That's why we have so many variants and so many NOS 6SN7's to choose from today.


----------



## whirlwind

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, it seems today is a good tube day.  Scored a Canadian Marconi 6AS7G a few weeks ago for $7.50 USD.  Listed as NIB/NOS, but you know how that goes.  Got it in today in original box and very clean pins.  Threw it on the tester and it almost pegs the meter on my BK 700 tester -- very NOS and balanced at 118/118 (out of 120/120).  So I know that Canadian Marconi did not actually make tubes and had relationships with many tube MFG, so off I went on a discovery tour researching images of GE (Bill said it was a GE, of course), RCA, Sylvania, and Chatham/Tung-Sol.  Did not match up structurally with any of the 1st three, but a dead ringer for the Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G.  Sometimes a blind squirrel will find an acorn.




In the USA I believe RCA along with Chatham Tun Sol were the only makers of the 6AS7G
If branded GE or Sylvania those were made for the above mentioned.

I found the Chatham Tung Sol with the copper rods to be really nice holographic tubes.


----------



## Wes S

whirlwind said:


> In the USA I believe RCA along with Chatham Tun Sol were the only makers of the 6AS7G
> If branded GE or Sylvania those were made for the above mentioned.
> 
> I found the Chatham Tung Sol with the copper rods to be really nice holographic tubes.


Nice!  The copper grid post are a good way to identify the Chatham 6AS7G's.  I have a couple and don't use them as much as I want to.  I just can't bring myself to pull the Bendix 6080WB.


----------



## whirlwind

Wes S said:


> Nice!  The copper grid post are a good way to identify the Chatham 6AS7G's.  I have a couple and don't use them as much as I want to.  I just can't bring myself to pull the Bendix 6080WB.



Yeah sort of, I also have some Chatham labeled with the steel rods...but I have never seen an RCA with anything other than steel rods.
If they have copper rods I would be confident that they are Chatham Tung Sol.

They sound good, but I also prefer the Bendix 6080.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2020)

I've scored a Marconi, CBS, and GE 6AS7Gs -- all being re-branded Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7Gs. Bottom double D getter, no bottom shield, and copper grid/post are key differentiators.

Tip:  Beware of the "made in Germany" Sylvania 6AS7Gs, however, as they are really re-branded Svetlanas.  Svetlanas aren't bed, but they ain't no TS/CHAT 6AS7G.  (Don't ask how I know this.)


----------



## Wes S

whirlwind said:


> Yeah sort of, I also have some Chatham labeled with the steel rods...but I have never seen an RCA with anything other than steel rods.
> If they have copper rods I would be confident that they are Chatham Tung Sol.
> 
> They sound good, but I also prefer the Bendix 6080.


Good to know!  The ones I have both have the copper grid post, so I didn't know they came with both steel and copper.


----------



## whirlwind

Wes S said:


> Good to know!  The ones I have both have the copper grid post, so I didn't know they came with both steel and copper.



I can't say for sure they do, they could be rebranded RCA. 
The ones you have will be Chatham


----------



## whirlwind

Ripper2860 said:


> I've scored a Marconi, CBS, and GE 6AS7G -- all being re-branded Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7Gs. Bottom double D getter, no bottom shield, and copper grid/post are key differentiators.
> 
> Tip:  Beware of the "made in Germany" Sylvania 6AS7Gs, however, as they are really re-branded Svetlanas.  Svetlanas aren't bed, but they ain't no TS/CHAT 6AS7G.  (Don't ask how I know this.)




The Svetlanas I believe should have a saucer getter


----------



## Ripper2860

Some do and some have what looks like a pill-in-foil getter holder.  Classic Russian design.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Some do and some have what looks like a pill-in-foil getter holder.  Classic Russian design.


That us such a great way to describe that type of getter, and I had never thought of that, but it sure does look like a pill in a foil pack.


----------



## cddc

I am not sure if RCA and TS/Chatham were the only 2 manufacturers of 6AS7G. I thought GE 6AS7G was manufactured by GE itself, because its doesn't look like RCA 6AS7G or TS/Chatham 6AS7G. 

TS/Chatham 6AS7G's normally have these tiny silver bars on both ends of the plates, but I've never seen these bars on GE 6AS7G's.


----------



## LoryWiv

cddc said:


> As for as I know, KT66 / KT77 / KT88 were initially designed for audio use, but they need output transformers.
> 
> 6SN7 was also designed for audio use.


Really interesting point, thanks. How does this apply to those who use KT66, KT88 or related 6V6 or 6L6 in OTL's with adapters? I do so ijn Feliks Elise and get good results sonically, but am I risking damage etc...?


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> Some do and some have what looks like a pill-in-foil getter holder.  Classic Russian design.




I call it UFO getter...


----------



## cddc

LoryWiv said:


> Really interesting point, thanks. How does this apply to those who use KT66, KT88 or related 6V6 or 6L6 in OTL's with adapters? I do so ijn Feliks Elise and get good results sonically, but am I risking damage etc...?




I have never seen KT66/77/88 or 6L6/6V6 being used in OTL amps except Feliks. But that obviously doesn't mean they cannot be used in OTL's. 

Theoretically, these tubes with high impedances won't match well with headphones (even high-Z headphones like Sennheiser HD600/800). But it's good to hear that they work well in Elise.

I once proposed trying KT66/77/88 in the Crack thread, but received a big fat NO.


----------



## Ripper2860

From what I've seen, GE has 2 styles of 6AS7Gs -- One looks very much like an RCA w/ bottom flashing, top and bottom shield and one that looks like Chatham/TS w/ bottom flashing, double D getter, copper post/grid and no bottom shield.  I have one on the way and can confirm Tuesday, but pics seemed to indicate a positive on it being Chatham.


----------



## Ripper2860

cddc said:


> I call it UFO getter...



This is different.  UFO and Saucer are interchangeable terms, but my Svetlana Winged Cs look just like a pill inside a square foil packet,


----------



## cddc

This is the TS/Chatham 6AS7G which looks exactly like mine. It has these tiny silver bars on both ends of plates, but I've never seen them on GE 6AS7G's. Also the TS/Chatham in the photo shows steel grid posts instead of copper.


----------



## Ripper2860

That looks like a top getter/flashing unit.  The ones I'm referring to are bottom getter/flashing.


----------



## cddc

Maybe, but the TS/Chatham 6AS7G's I've seen all come with these tiny silver bars.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2020)

BTW -- this is the pill-foil getter holder I'm referring to on my Svetlana...



And here's a pic of the GE that is on its way to me...



Seller says it's copper rod/grid.  If so it's just like Marconi I have.


----------



## cddc

LOL...I can now see why you call it pill-foil getter. 

Normally Svetlana comes with so called UFO or inverse saucer getter.

But the UFO in your photo obviously deformed a little bit.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I am not sure if RCA and TS/Chatham were the only 2 manufacturers of 6AS7G. I thought GE 6AS7G was manufactured by GE itself, because its doesn't look like RCA 6AS7G or TS/Chatham 6AS7G.
> 
> TS/Chatham 6AS7G's normally have these tiny silver bars on both ends of the plates, but I've never seen these bars on GE 6AS7G's.


Here's an interesting list of 6AS7G manufacturers

Chatham
GEC
Hytron
Nippon Electric
Svetlana
Sovtek
RCA


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- this is the pill-foil getter holder I'm referring to on my Svetlana...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How in the world!? Are you finding these!?

Nice grab!
😁


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2020)

Set an eBay watch for 6AS7G and look at every darn new listing pics for key indicators.

Also -- I do have this CBS on the way which looks to be very Chatham / TS'ish, but top getter.  It'll be interesting to see how it compares structurally and sound-wise ...


----------



## cddc

This CBS one comes with silvers bars, it could be a real TS/Chatham 6AS7G.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> This CBS one comes with silvers bars, it could be a real TS/Chatham 6AS7G.


I was on the silver edged plates myself until this posting. I can't find the silver on the edges of the plates on these tubes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353120413231


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2020)

@cddc -- What are your thoughts on this Marconi?


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> I was on the silver edged plates myself until this posting. I can't find the silver on the edges of the plates on these tubes.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/353120413231



I thought the silver-edge plates requirements was related to Chatham/TS 6080, not 6AS7G.


----------



## cddc (Jul 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I was on the silver edged plates myself until this posting. I can't find the silver on the edges of the plates on these tubes.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/353120413231




Most I've seen come with silver bars, so the ones look pretty weird. They could well be GE 6AS7G tubes rebranded as TS/Chatham. 

I am not a big fan of TS/Chatham 6AS7G anyway, so maybe I haven't checked all TS/Chatham variants. I normally just stick to my Sylvania/TS 7236 or Bendix slotted plates.


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> @cddc -- What are your thoughts on this Marconi?




That one is hard to tell. Marconi did have a factory in Canada to manufacture tubes. It could be a Canadian Marconi tube or a rebrand.


----------



## Ripper2860

Big fan of Sylvania 7236.  Finding a TS 7236 is not an easy task, so I've had to make do with Cetron.


----------



## Wes S

cddc said:


> Most I've seen come with silver bars, so the ones look pretty weird.
> 
> I am not a big fan of TS/Chatham 6AS7G anyway, so maybe I haven't checked all TS/Chatham variants. I normally just stick to my Sylvania/TS 7236 or Bendix slotted plates.


Wrong post.  Sorry.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> @cddc -- What are your thoughts on this Marconi?


Ripper you can ship that too me for closer inspection, might take me a year or two to finalize impressions though. ,😁


----------



## Ripper2860

cddc said:


> That one is hard to tell. Marconi did have a factory in Canada to manufacture tubes. It could be a Canadian Marconi tube or a rebrand.



Sorry, I failed to mention it was Canadian Marconi.  As far as I understand, Canadian Marconi relied on several MFGs like RCA ,GE and Tung-Sol/Chatham.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> I thought the silver-edge plates requirements was related to Chatham/TS 6080, not 6AS7G.


I have a couple of each, and it's on both.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I thought the silver-edge plates requirements was related to Chatham/TS 6080, not 6AS7G.


On another forum there's discussion that silver edged plates are the sure give away of a Chatham 6As7g. Might be this thread! 😂 I read it myself I few weeks back and believed it as gospel until the few posting I bumped into here and there


----------



## cddc

Or maybe you end up with a true GE 6AS7G tube...that would be a huge risk to us all except to @bcowen ....


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 9, 2020)

cddc said:


> Or maybe you end up with a true GE 6AS7G tube...that would be a huge risk to us all except to @bcowen ....


I've never seen a GE 6AS7g, maybe some 6AS7GA but never a 6AS7G. There might be listings that say 6AS7G, but the photos are always them straight bottle 6AS7GA type

I stand corrected! wow..check this baby out..---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1945-GE-6AS7G-tube-New-Old-Stock-New-In-Box-Date-Code-5-52/362739839231


----------



## LoryWiv

cddc said:


> I have never seen KT66/77/88 or 6L6/6V6 being used in OTL amps except Feliks. But that obviously doesn't mean they cannot be used in OTL's.
> 
> Theoretically, these tubes with high impedances won't match well with headphones (even high-Z headphones like Sennheiser HD600/800). But it's good to hear that they work well in Elise.
> 
> I once proposed trying KT66/77/88 in the Crack thread, but received a big fat NO.



Right. I know OTL's in general work better with higher impedance headphones.I hadn't considered the "output impedance" of tubes however beyond that of the amp in stnadard config. Reviewing tube data sheets shows internal plate resistance is certainly higher on KT and 6L6 / 6V6 than 6AS7, but as *this link* illustrates output impedance is more complicated to calculate than plate resistance alone. Arghhhh, a bit beyond my non engineer's brain can master.

Perhaps more to the pragmatic point for dummies like me,, what "symptom" would one expect if rolling tubes that raise source output impedance too much? Would it introduce background hiss like with IEM's (which I do sometimes hear) or just distort / roll of the sound?

Thanks for any further insight and an interesting discussion!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Big fan of Sylvania 7236.  Finding a TS 7236 is not an easy task, so I've had to make do with Cetron.


When I grabbed my Tung Sol last year the guy that tipped us (on the listing) of the real estate sale said to grab as much as we could, I didn't understand it then, now I do. crazy how this stuff flys off the shelves.


----------



## cddc (Jul 9, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Right. I know OTL's in general work better with higher impedance headphones.I hadn't considered the "output impedance" of tubes however beyond that of the amp in stnadard config. Reviewing tube data sheets shows internal plate resistance is certainly higher on KT and 6L6 / 6V6 than 6AS7, but as *this link* illustrates output impedance is more complicated to calculate than plate resistance alone. Arghhhh, a bit beyond my non engineer's brain can master.
> 
> Perhaps more to the pragmatic point for dummies like me,, what "symptom" would one expect if rolling tubes that raise source output impedance too much? Would it introduce background hiss like with IEM's (which I do sometimes hear) or just distort / roll of the sound?
> 
> Thanks for any further insight and an interesting discussion!



I'm quite new to these electronic theories myself too 😝, so can't explain exactly what a mismatch in impedance will bring.

I remember if the amp output impedance is too high relative to the headphones, the amp may lose some of its ability to control the headphones, resulting in rolled off highs or lows. May sound muddy, or possibly noisy?

But theories are just theories. If a tube sounds great in an amp, then who cares about the theories...LOL 😂


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> I thought the silver-edge plates requirements was related to Chatham/TS 6080, not 6AS7G.


Those are $10 a piece not long time ago. No?


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I've never seen a GE 6AS7g, maybe some 6AS7GA but never a 6AS7G. There might be listings that say 6AS7G, but the photos are always them straight bottle 6AS7GA type
> 
> I stand corrected! wow..check this baby out..---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1945-GE-6AS7G-tube-New-Old-Stock-New-In-Box-Date-Code-5-52/362739839231




That's a robbery...you'd get a 5998 for the price.

I wouldn't pay more than $10 for it


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 9, 2020)

cddc said:


> That's a robbery...you'd get a 5998 for the price.
> 
> I wouldn't pay more than $10 for it


Looks like a Chatham. Double D getters with the copper posts..I'm watching it.
This GE is RCA made. Thinking GE never made their own 6as7g
https://www.ebay.com/itm/362739838221


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> Right. I know OTL's in general work better with higher impedance headphones.I hadn't considered the "output impedance" of tubes however beyond that of the amp in stnadard config. Reviewing tube data sheets shows internal plate resistance is certainly higher on KT and 6L6 / 6V6 than 6AS7, but as *this link* illustrates output impedance is more complicated to calculate than plate resistance alone. Arghhhh, a bit beyond my non engineer's brain can master.
> 
> Perhaps more to the pragmatic point for dummies like me,, what "symptom" would one expect if rolling tubes that raise source output impedance too much? Would it introduce background hiss like with IEM's (which I do sometimes hear) or just distort / roll of the sound?
> 
> Thanks for any further insight and an interesting discussion!


Reminds me of a study of the bumble bee with the conclusion that with such a prominent body and such small wings, it cannot fly.
But it does.
There are tubes that are not supposed to work in a particular amp, but they do. And at times they do it very well.
I would rely on experienced and seasoned tube rollers for their recommendations.


----------



## cddc (Jul 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I've never seen a GE 6AS7g, maybe some 6AS7GA but never a 6AS7G. There might be listings that say 6AS7G, but the photos are always them straight bottle 6AS7GA type
> 
> I stand corrected! wow..check this baby out..---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1945-GE-6AS7G-tube-New-Old-Stock-New-In-Box-Date-Code-5-52/362739839231




Lots of 6AS7GA's were indeed manufactured by GE (I will say the majority of), so why would we doubt GE did not manufacture any 6AS7G tubes? Just replace the tubular glass bottle with a coke bottle, and you'll get a GE 6AS7G.


----------



## Ripper2860

You'd also have to replace the top and bottom spiked mica with round mica and add a top shield.


----------



## cddc

That's a good point. 

What I was trying to say is that GE had the ability (and patents) to manufacture 6AS7GA / 6AS7G tubes, and they did manufacture lots of 6AS7GA tubes, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a GE 6AS7G tube.


----------



## Ripper2860

I know, I was just being annoying.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> You'd also have to replace the top and bottom spiked mica with round mica and add a top shield.


🙄 Ok .. back to the drawing board 
. Thanks 😊


----------



## cddc

I wouldn't bother checking the innards of my GE 6AS7GA tube. You guys can try the GE's and let us know how they sound (I think their sound will have the final say)  ...coz it is a huge risk to me if it turns out to be a real GE tube ....the best case scenario it's a TS/Chatham 6AS7G in disguise, then congrats, you got an above average tube, but it's still far away from the 1st tier tubes


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I wouldn't bother checking the innards of my GE 6AS7GA tube. You guys can try the GE's and let us know how they sound (I think their sound will have the final say)  ...coz it is a huge risk to me if it turns out to be a real GE tube ....the best case scenario it's a TS/Chatham 6AS7G in disguise, then congrats, you got an above average tube, but it's still far away from the 1st tier tubes


I feel ya, why spend $30 in a decent sounding tube when you can get a GEC for $300!


----------



## cddc

LOL....I would not spend $30 on a TS/Chatham, neither would I spend $80+ for a GEC   

GEC 6AS7G is silly hyped


----------



## Ripper2860

The only reason I'm even on this 6AS7 hunt is because the sound of the Marconi 6AS7G is wonderful with my setup of Incubus, Bifrost 2, Brimar Black Glass CV1988, and Hifiman Arya w/ my preferred jazz music.  At a totally different level than my RCA bottom getter 6AS7G and Svetlana Winged C.  After I receive my last ordered tubes, I'm done with power tubes as I'm not ready to sell a kidney for a Bendix slotted graphite plate (yet).

My Chatham 6080WB w/ graphite plates are for serious listening.   Cetron and Sylvania 7236s are for when I desire a more SS sound.  Chatham and Sylvania 6080s, GE 6AS7GA (just to aggravate Bill) and RCA 6AS7GA, I'm just getting to know and am playing with driver tube pairings.  If I wasn't doing this, I'd be spending money on camera gear and that is way more expensive!!


----------



## mordy

Does anybody know if there is a difference in sound between different brands of graphite plate 6080WB? I have Raytheon 6080WB graphite plates but I wonder if they were made by Bendix.
Re the GEC 6080 they are great sounding tubes, but as always, it comes down to synergy with other tubes and your amp.
Re the 6AS7GA I have several different brands but they all sound the same to me.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> The only reason I'm even on this 6AS7 hunt is because the sound of the Marconi 6AS7G is wonderful with my setup of Incubus, Bifrost 2, Brimar Black Glass CV1988, and Hifiman Arya w/ my preferred jazz music.  At a totally different level than my RCA bottom getter 6AS7G and Svetlana Winged C.  After I receive my last ordered tubes, I'm done with power tubes as I'm not ready to sell a kidney for a Bendix slotted graphite plate (yet).
> 
> My Chatham 6080WB w/ graphite plates are for serious listening.   Cetron and Sylvania 7236s are for when I desire a more SS sound.  Chatham and Sylvania 6080s, GE 6AS7GA (just to aggravate Bill) and RCA 6AS7GA, I'm just getting to know and am playing with driver tube pairings.  If I wasn't doing this, I'd be spending money on camera gear and that is way more expensive!!


This I know... after a few weddings I was done. 10 hour days and that's not including the time spent going threw the photos and Lightroom edits. Oh, 6AS7G...yes..they're exciting. I'd love to have a Chatham, compare it to the RCA I have the same. I'm following your lead on this and on a bargain hunt.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> Does anybody know if there is a difference in sound between different brands of graphite plate 6080WB? I have Raytheon 6080WB graphite plates but I wonder if they were made by Bendix.
> Re the GEC 6080 they are great sounding tubes, but as always, it comes down to synergy with other tubes and your amp.
> Re the 6AS7GA I have several different brands but they all sound the same to me.


I'm almost convinced any tube with graphite plates is Bendix made. It was their niche in the tube industry. building tank tubes.


----------



## Velozity

JKDJedi said:


> The Bendix Corporation began with the Eclipse-Pioneer Division in Teteboro New Jersey late 40's (I always thought they were European before finding that out) moved to a new division in 1951, the Red Bank Division. Any tubes marked with the TE were made from the first division, in Teteboro.
> 
> Safe to say, the Bendix 6080WB were all made at the Red Bank Division?





Since I'm literally currently reading a book about Bendix, I can share the facts:

Bendix started much earlier (Vincent Bendix patented an electric starter in 1910) and through a series of acquisitions what later became known as the Bendix Aviation Corporation formed the Eclipse-Pioneer Division in Teterboro in 1943.  That's when they started making their own tubes.  The TE designation is used to describe amplifier and electron tubes, and is not related to TEterboro.  Even tubes made at the Red Bank Division in Eatontown had TE designations.  Yes the JAN-CEA-6080WB is a Red Bank tube and it is actually Bendix part number TE-46.


----------



## Velozity (Jul 9, 2020)

All of my Chatham 6AS7G have copper posts and bottom DD getters.  For high-res pics of those and some RCA JAN-6AS7G I was selling, click the "Tubes" link in my signature and look at post #5.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/var...es-for-gotl-lyr-3-iha-1-darkvoice-etc.927630/


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> I'm almost convinced any tube with graphite plates is Bendix made. It was their niche in the tube industry. building tank tubes.


I have 6336 tubes made with graphite plates from Cetron which I think is connected to Tung Sol and not to Bendix. These are 5A tubes and essentially a double 6080 - don't try them in your amp unless it can handle the current....
There are graphite plate 6080 tubes from Tung Sol, Chatham and Raytheon and I am not sure if all were made by Bendix.
Possibly the graphite tubes were made for missiles because the G impact values are listed for the tubes. The 6080WB is good for 450G impact and 60,000ft:
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/138/6/6080WB.pdf


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 10, 2020)

mordy said:


> I have 6336 tubes made with graphite plates from Cetron which I think is connected to Tung Sol and not to Bendix. These are 5A tubes and essentially a double 6080 - don't try them in your amp unless it can handle the current....
> There are graphite plate 6080 tubes from Tung Sol, Chatham and Raytheon and I am not sure if all were made by Bendix.
> Possibly the graphite tubes were made for missiles because the G impact values are listed for the tubes. The 6080WB is good for 450G impact and 60,000ft:
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/138/6/6080WB.pdf


Do any of them look like this? (Tung sol, Raytheon, Chatham)


----------



## mordy (Jul 10, 2020)

No - the slotted plate I think is exclusively Bendix but as far as I know there are at least four other variants of the Bendix labeled graphite plate tubes with some plates that look similar to the other brands.


----------



## Ripper2860

Somewhere in this thread @rosgr63 has pics of all the Bendix GP variants, IIRC.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 10, 2020)

mordy said:


> No - the slotted plate I think is exclusively Bendix but as far as I know there are at least four other variants of the Bendix labeled graphite plate tubes with some plates that look similar to the other brands.


ok, thanks for confirming that, have one coming in where the markings are rubbed off, (might be that photo), and got white when I read your response, (am I getting a Tung Sol)...was my first reaction...  right on, so these guys (Tung Sol, Raytheon, Chatham) built tuff gong pipes for the military too. Nice.


----------



## mordy

In addition to these I have seen one with very different looking graphite plates made for the German military (I will try to find the picture)
For the Bendix answer looking people:




> Here is the updated Bendix 6080WB list:
> 
> 1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods.
> 2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods
> ...



1. Triangular Plates with Copper Rods. (left tube)






2. Holed Plates with Copper Rods







3. Holed Plates with Steel Rods (right tube)






4. Rectangular Plates with Steel Rods






5. Slotted Plates Curved Face with Copper Grid Rods







6. Slotted Plates with Curved Slot and Curved Face.






A big Thank You to ROSGR63 for building this list!


----------



## mordy

Took out my Bendix and Raytheon labeled 6080WB:



The right tube is labelled Raytheon (came from an old artillery piece), and the left one Bendix (bought from Rosgr63 BTW). They look identical except for the color of the ceramic mica, and neither one has the slot in the plate.
The Raytheon/Bendix is in constant daily use and I enjoy the punch and clarity it brings.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> Took out my Bendix and Raytheon labeled 6080WB:
> 
> The right tube is labelled Raytheon (came from an old artillery piece), and the left one Bendix (bought from Rosgr63 BTW). They look identical except for the color of the ceramic mica, and neither one has the slot in the plate.
> The Raytheon/Bendix is in constant daily use and I enjoy the punch and clarity it brings.


I would say that Raytheon is a Bendix made tube. And thanks for the pics above, starring at it as if it were jewelery.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> I would say that Raytheon is a Bendix made tube. And thanks for the pics above, starring at it as if it were jewelery.


Yes - plenty of bling!


----------



## fuzzroffe

Oooh, I want one of those Bendix 6080's, but I can't spend that much on a single tube. I already have 4 new types on the way to try. IF they ever get here, USPS isn't exactly fast these days.


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> I'm almost convinced any tube with graphite plates is Bendix made. It was their niche in the tube industry. building tank tubes.


Pretty sure you are correct.


----------



## gibosi

To my knowledge, only Bendix manufactured the 6080 with graphite plates.


----------



## attmci (Jul 16, 2020)

fuzzroffe said:


> Oooh, I want one of those Bendix 6080's, but I can't spend that much on a single tube. I already have 4 new types on the way to try. IF they ever get here, USPS isn't exactly fast these days.


fake site deleted.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 12, 2020)

attmci said:


> https://www.datsmeestore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=235423


No....no..no....no... This is the scam site ...do not buy from them. The photo and discription are stolen from an Etsy merchant.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 12, 2020)

And... 

Order Confirmation e-mail is a spoofed HOTMAIL address -- it's not even from a DATSMEE domain.  There's no way to check on shipping status and there's no legit customer service e-mail.  There is also no way to communicate / message the seller via the site.  It will also let you put an unlimited number of these very sought after and rare tubes (I stopped at 50) in the cart and move on to complete the order.  And the only reviews for the seller are all from the same Bart P. person.

Don't ask how I know it's a SCAM and no I did not order 50...   

Paypal to the rescue, however.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> And...   Conformation e-mail is a spoofed HOTMAIL address.  It's not even from a DATSMEE domain.  There's no way to check on shipping and there's no legit customer service e-mail.  Don't ask how I know...


🤣🤣😆😆 I don't know what your talking about 😂


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Hey everybody, I'm recovering from a buying binge of 6sn7 tubes after getting a great adapter for my BHC from @Deyan .  So, now I'm ready to start rolling the power tube in my amp.  Currently I'm using the Svetlana Winged C and I greatly enjoy it over the RCA that came with my BHC.

I use HD800 headphones primarily and I like a warm set of tubes to dampen the clinical nature of the headphones.

Currently I have a Mullard 6080 that is stuck somewhere in Eastern Europe and may never make it to America.  I'm looking to get something else and try out some tubes.

For warmish power tubes...where to start?  Any suggestions?  I'm interested in the Tung Sol 5998 that everyone raves about but also wanted to get some other ideas.

Thanks!!!


----------



## adeadcrab

6AS7GA is always good for the price...
https://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-6as7-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612

Most 6080's are warmish, AFAIK.. I had a cheapo 6080WC that sounded less warm but also it arced on me soon after.. not really worth getting those IMO


----------



## Wes S

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody, I'm recovering from a buying binge of 6sn7 tubes after getting a great adapter for my BHC from @Deyan .  So, now I'm ready to start rolling the power tube in my amp.  Currently I'm using the Svetlana Winged C and I greatly enjoy it over the RCA that came with my BHC.
> 
> I use HD800 headphones primarily and I like a warm set of tubes to dampen the clinical nature of the headphones.
> 
> ...


Bummer about the Mullard!  In my opinion the 5998 is way overrated and a bit thin/bright for my taste.  The RCA is about is warm as you can get for power tubes in the Crack, so going a bit warmer, you might keep an eye out for a Chatham/Tung Sol 6080, as that is a good warmish and balanced power tube.  Of course, my number one power tube rec for the Crack is the Bendix 6080WB, but they are hard to find.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody, I'm recovering from a buying binge of 6sn7 tubes after getting a great adapter for my BHC from @Deyan .  So, now I'm ready to start rolling the power tube in my amp.  Currently I'm using the Svetlana Winged C and I greatly enjoy it over the RCA that came with my BHC.
> 
> I use HD800 headphones primarily and I like a warm set of tubes to dampen the clinical nature of the headphones.
> 
> ...


What @Wes S said, Chatham 6080 might be what your looking for. I have (just arrived) the Bendix but have not had a chance to enjoy it yet, long story short, new amp on its way. 😁 And yes the Chatham might be what your looking for.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Wes S said:


> Bummer about the Mullard!  In my opinion the 5998 is way overrated and a bit thin/bright for my taste.  The RCA is about is warm as you can get for power tubes in the Crack, so going a bit warmer, you might keep an eye out for a Chatham/Tung Sol 6080, as that is a good warmish and balanced power tube.  Of course, my number one power tube rec for the Crack is the Bendix 6080WB, but they are hard to find.


I found a matching pair of Bendix 6080WB for not too much!!!  Just $500...wow.

Would this be a good example of the Chatham tube?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/JAN-CAHG-6...915767?hash=item23db3abf77:g:choAAOSwHYFfB8NI


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I found a matching pair of Bendix 6080WB for not too much!!!  Just $500...wow.
> 
> Would this be a good example of the Chatham tube?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/JAN-CAHG-6...915767?hash=item23db3abf77:g:choAAOSwHYFfB8NI


I had a chance for a pair that went for half that price...from Britain. Still slapping myself for missing out on that bid, and they were mint. I'd grab that Chatham quick if I were you.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I had a chance for a pair that went for half that price...from Britain. Still slapping myself for missing out on that bid, and they were mint. I'd grab that Chatham quick if I were you.




The British Bendix 6080 pair tested below 50%, you were VERY VERY lucky that you didn't win the auction.

Someone in the WA22 thread won it, and I happened to see it yesterday.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> The British Bendix 6080 pair tested below 50%, you were VERY VERY lucky that you didn't win the auction.
> 
> Someone in the WA22 thread won it, and I happened to see it yesterday.


Oh man.... For reals!? The listing was misleading then, it read NOS .. well thanks, I don't feel too bad then. Did they retest the tubes and how is he feeling about his new tubes right now? Was it these? ---> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174338790580


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Oh man.... For reals!? The listing was misleading then, it read NOS .. well thanks, I don't feel too bad then. Did they retest the tubes and how is he feeling about his new tubes right now? Was it these? ---> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174338790580



I suppose you forgot to check their measurements before bidding...LOL

Check the comments me and another head-fier left in the WA22 thread regarding the Bendix pair you luckily missed.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/woo-audio-wa22-amp-owner-unite.826386/page-61


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I suppose you forgot to check their measurements before bidding...LOL
> 
> Check the comments me and another head-fier left in the WA22 thread regarding the Bendix pair you luckily missed.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/woo-audio-wa22-amp-owner-unite.826386/page-61


I need to learn how to pick up on these test results quick, thank you.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> I had a chance for a pair that went for half that price...from Britain. Still slapping myself for missing out on that bid, and they were mint. I'd grab that Chatham quick if I were you.


Picked up the Chatham, reasonable price.  Will keep my eye out for an inexpensive Bendix (like $100 or less).

Once @Deyan  gets his tube testers made for us, we'll really be in business on buying some of these tubes in bulk.  That seems to be the most cost efficient way of feeding this terrible addiction.


----------



## Deyan

PsilocybinCube said:


> Picked up the Chatham, reasonable price.  Will keep my eye out for an inexpensive Bendix (like $100 or less).
> 
> Once @Deyan  gets his tube testers made for us, we'll really be in business on buying some of these tubes in bulk.  That seems to be the most cost efficient way of feeding this terrible addiction.



I'll use the post as an update on the tube testers. 

The company that used to make my transformers has stopped making transformers all together. 
I emailed a second company and had a conversation on the phone with them, but as of today I don't have a definitive answer either on price nor if they are up to the job.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Picked up the Chatham, reasonable price.  Will keep my eye out for an inexpensive Bendix (like $100 or less).
> 
> Once @Deyan  gets his tube testers made for us, we'll really be in business on buying some of these tubes in bulk.  That seems to be the most cost efficient way of feeding this terrible addiction.


They do/will come handy. My sad story is I had a tube that I really liked the sound out of it so much that it blinded me of the super loose base and the occasional short it would cause, such a dufus, well, my amp is out. Happy ending is that I finally get my upgraded amp I always wanted 😂


----------



## Wes S (Jul 14, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I had a chance for a pair that went for half that price...from Britain. Still slapping myself for missing out on that bid, and they were mint. I'd grab that Chatham quick if I were you.


Me too.   However, there was no return policy, so it was a big gamble.  I have had several noisy Bendix 6080WB that I purchased that looked NOS, but ended up getting returned.  I would only buy Bendix 6080WB's from a seller with a good return policy.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Woo, and might I add, hoo! I've waited a month for these. I need to change the cathode resistor in my preamp to bias up the 7236 correctly, and then it's testing time.


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> Woo, and might I add, hoo! I've waited a month for these. I need to change the cathode resistor in my preamp to bias up the 7236 correctly, and then it's testing time.


Please add comparisons between the Tung Sol and Sylvania here. Curious as to how they behave in your amp.


----------



## JKDJedi

So I finally got a chance to listen to this Bendix, got my amp going...three days later... Holy sh#t that sound! Is it just me or does this tube have some kind of 3D effect like the iFi DACs have? It's not strong but I recognize it as that.


----------



## adeadcrab

The Bendix 6080WB? It's a very wide holographic sound, with strong bass slam, from what I remember.


----------



## adeadcrab

Thank God I bought them all those years ago.. not likely to go bad for a while, and not likely to find matched pairs, let alone matched quads


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> The Bendix 6080WB? It's a very wide holographic sound, with strong bass slam, from what I remember.


Good to hear, I just did my initial listen earlier and shared them with @Ripper2860 and it's as you stated.. the wide holographic sound, (not the same as a 6AS7g) is different, but there..


----------



## adeadcrab

In a few weeks I'll be able to confirm.. new amp is on the way!   Haven't had a functioning OTL for over a year


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> In a few weeks I'll be able to confirm.. new amp is on the way!   Haven't had a functioning OTL for over a year


A year!! Jezzz! I was going crazy not having mine for three days...lol! Wow... How did you manage?? I nearly went into a panic and bought one of @Paladin79 amps. And just today the dang thing started working again...I don't know... Oh well, I'll have two amps now.. 🤣🤣


----------



## adeadcrab

I was like that years and years ago, when my tube amp was the best gear I had... Now I have the 789 amp, fed from a warm preamp and good DAC... haven't felt the *need* for anything else.

If my amp guy ever gets back to me I'll have two tube amps.. lol - until then I'll only have the latest model


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 15, 2020)

adeadcrab said:


> I was like that years and years ago, when my tube amp was the best gear I had... Now I have the 789 amp, fed from a warm preamp and good DAC... haven't felt the *need* for anything else.
> 
> If my amp guy ever gets back to me I'll have two tube amps.. lol - until then I'll only have the latest model


Your heart is still with tubed amps...you can't fool us... 😁


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> A year!! Jezzz! I was going crazy not having mine for three days...lol! Wow... How did you manage?? I nearly went into a panic and bought one of @Paladin79 amps. And just today the dang thing started working again...I don't know... Oh well, I'll have two amps now.. 🤣🤣


Look over your solder joints carefully you may have a poor solder. Either that or a dirty socket.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Paladin79 said:


> Look over your solder joints carefully you may have a poor solder. Either that or a dirty socket.


Yeah, I thought I had a dead tube once, turned out to be a bad solder joint on the heater wiring


----------



## Paladin79

fuzzroffe said:


> Yeah, I thought I had a dead tube once, turned out to be a bad solder joint on the heater wiring


Yeah and when you have not soldered a lot and start doing modifications it can get tricky as well lol.


----------



## adeadcrab

I've had driver tubes that I thought had died - a couple days later they end up working - is that the socket or the tube?


----------



## fuzzroffe

adeadcrab said:


> I've had driver tubes that I thought had died - a couple days later they end up working - is that the socket or the tube?


Could be any of them, or both. Bad contact internally in the tube, on the tube pins, in the socket, or the socket soldering joints... Lots of options


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> No....no..no....no... This is the scam site ...do not buy from them. The photo and discription are stolen from an Etsy merchant.



Crap.  The total on 500 of them was too much for PayPal, so I sent them the funds via Western Union earlier today. Hopefully everything will be OK.


----------



## bcowen

adeadcrab said:


> 6AS7GA is always good for the price...
> https://www.parts-express.com/6as7ga-6as7-ge-jan-vacuum-tube--072-612
> 
> Most 6080's are warmish, AFAIK.. I had a cheapo 6080WC that sounded less warm but also it arced on me soon after.. not really worth getting those IMO



I like the 6AS7GA (straight bottle) better than the 6AS7G (ST bottle).  But I don't like GE's no matter what bottle shape they're in (just in case anybody didn't know that).   The ones I have are RCA's, and quite nice tubes for the money (IMO).


----------



## adeadcrab

I need to get on that sale..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> What @Wes S said, Chatham 6080 might be what your looking for. I have (just arrived) the Bendix but have not had a chance to enjoy it yet, long story short, new amp on its way. 😁 And yes the Chatham might be what your looking for.



I thought Chatham 6080's were illegal in CA with Proposition 432 (or whatever it was) requiring warnings about everything on planet earth causing cancer. Best you send those to me to keep yourself on the right side of the law.  That's what friends are for.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I found a matching pair of Bendix 6080WB for not too much!!!  Just $500...wow.
> 
> Would this be a good example of the Chatham tube?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/JAN-CAHG-6...915767?hash=item23db3abf77:g:choAAOSwHYFfB8NI



That's a good example of a WA.  It's the WB's that have the graphite plates.  That WA is probably a very good sounding tube regardless though.


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> Could be any of them, or both. Bad contact internally in the tube, on the tube pins, in the socket, or the socket soldering joints... Lots of options



Or even what's become commonly known as an @Ripper2860 -ism where the tube is installed upside down.  Yeah, seems strange....


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.  Still works...


----------



## attmci (Jul 16, 2020)

Wes S said:


> Bummer about the Mullard!  In my opinion the 5998 is way overrated and a bit thin/bright for my taste.  The RCA is about is warm as you can get for power tubes in the Crack, so going a bit warmer, you might keep an eye out for a Chatham/Tung Sol 6080, as that is a good warmish and balanced power tube.  Of course, my number one power tube rec for the Crack is the Bendix 6080WB, but they are hard to find.


If your 5998 is a clear top, I can trade two Bendix 6080WB for your 5998.


----------



## attmci

PsilocybinCube said:


> I found a matching pair of Bendix 6080WB for not too much!!!  Just $500...wow.
> 
> Would this be a good example of the Chatham tube?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/JAN-CAHG-6...915767?hash=item23db3abf77:g:choAAOSwHYFfB8NI


No.


----------



## fuzzroffe

fuzzroffe said:


> Woo, and might I add, hoo! I've waited a month for these. I need to change the cathode resistor in my preamp to bias up the 7236 correctly, and then it's testing time.



Well... I've tried them all now, but haven't made direct comparisons yet. The Sylvania and Tung-Sol sound quite similar, smooth and hi-fi-ish at the same time, and more controlled bass than the other tubes I've tried. I really like the extra gain I get from them, but I need to listen more to each one. The RCA surprised me a bit, warm and full of detail, I suddenly heard things in the music I hadn't noticed before. It's definitely a big step up from the Svetlana 6AS7 and GE 6080 I've used before.


----------



## SHIMACM

Has anyone compared the Bendix 6080 Wb to the Chatham 6as7g? I know two very holographic tubes.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 22, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Has anyone compared the Bendix 6080 Wb to the Chatham 6as7g? I know two very holographic tubes.


Bass and impact are much stronger on the Bendix, which gives it more organic warmth, and instrument seperation is better on the Bendix as well.  They are not really in the same league, if you ask me.  The Chatham is great with a warmer driver tube, and the Bendix is killer with anything you put in front of it.


----------



## SHIMACM

Wes S said:


> Bass and impact are much stronger on the Bendix, which gives it more organic warmth, and instrument seperation is better on the Bendix as well.  They are not really in the same league, if you ask me.  The Chatham is great with a warmer driver tube, and the Bendix is killer with anything you put in front of it.



I actually use the Chatham 6as7g with a RCA 6sn7gt vt231 gray glass as a driver. That is why the sound is really good, since the RCA is a hot and lush tube. The way is to wait for a seller willing to send a Bendix to Brazil.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

attmci said:


> No.


Well, you didn't provide much detail, but I can confirm the tube didn't blow me away.  Much less transparent than my Winged C.  I guess I bought the wrong type of Chatham?  Type A rather than B?  Was that my problem?

It had an overall muddy sound with good bass quantity, mediocre bass quality.


----------



## Wes S

SHIMACM said:


> I actually use the Chatham 6as7g with a RCA 6sn7gt vt231 gray glass as a driver. That is why the sound is really good, since the RCA is a hot and lush tube. The way is to wait for a seller willing to send a Bendix to Brazil.


I could see the warm and lush RCA grey glass pairing really well with the Chatham.  I have both of those tubes, so I am gonna have to give that combo a listen.


----------



## attmci

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well, you didn't provide much detail, but I can confirm the tube didn't blow me away.  Much less transparent than my Winged C.  I guess I bought the wrong type of Chatham?  Type A rather than B?  Was that my problem?
> 
> It had an overall muddy sound with good bass quantity, mediocre bass quality.


Could you share a picture of your tube? The one on the eBaay is not clear to demonstrate the structure.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Has anyone compared the Bendix 6080 Wb to the Chatham 6as7g? I know two very holographic tubes.


I'd have to spend some hours comparing the two, on a week with the Chatham, next week the Bendix.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Crap.  The total on 500 of them was too much for PayPal, so I sent them the funds via Western Union earlier today. Hopefully everything will be OK.





attmci said:


> If your 5998 is a clear top, I can trade two Bendix 6080WB for your 5998.


HAH!! Get Em!! I'm tempted to do the same...LOL And clear top 5998...intresting...I never noticed that... there seems to be a trend here.. lower getter coke bottle tubes are preferred across the board. (did you have the 421a in mind?) ohhhh....I found what you were referring too...

Chatham 5998... oh my...


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 23, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well, you didn't provide much detail, but I can confirm the tube didn't blow me away.  Much less transparent than my Winged C.  I guess I bought the wrong type of Chatham?  Type A rather than B?  Was that my problem?
> 
> It had an overall muddy sound with good bass quantity, mediocre bass quality.


lol... yes... I know what you mean.. it does best with certain drivers, the Chatham 6080 matches best with tall 7N7 like @bcowens Frankies. (Another great pairing is with the Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7GTB)


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> I could see the warm and lush RCA grey glass pairing really well with the Chatham.  I have both of those tubes, so I am gonna have to give that combo a listen.


add the Bad Boy to the mix..


----------



## PsilocybinCube

attmci said:


> Could you share a picture of your tube? The one on the eBaay is not clear to demonstrate the structure.



Pics attached.

And @JKDJedi I actually did have the Chatham paired with a Bad Boy when I was using it.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Pics attached.
> 
> And @JKDJedi I actually did have the Chatham paired with a Bad Boy when I was using it.


That was for the Chatham 6AS7g.. 😝


----------



## Wes S

JKDJedi said:


> That was for the Chatham 6AS7g.. 😝


My word, that kid is fat!  That can't be healthy!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> That was for the Chatham 6AS7g.. 😝


Ahh.  Should have read closer.  6as7g, not 6080.  
To be honest, I look just like this kid when looking at different tubes.  My fingers are fatter, though.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 23, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Ahh.  Should have read closer.  6as7g, not 6080.
> To be honest, I look just like this kid when looking at different tubes.  My fingers are fatter, though.


😂😂😂... Hope we can help... Are we?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂... Hope we can help... Are we?


I think my question was whether or not I should try for the 6080WB as it seems I got the 6080WA.  I honestly don't really know the difference between A & B models of any tube.  However, I do know that I prefer my 6SN7GTB Sylvania over the 6SN7GTA variant.

So maybe the letter B means it's better.  Yes, we'll go with that.

But seriously, should I sell the model A and spring for the B variant?


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I think my question was whether or not I should try for the 6080WB as it seems I got the 6080WA.  I honestly don't really know the difference between A & B models of any tube.  However, I do know that I prefer my 6SN7GTB Sylvania over the 6SN7GTA variant.
> 
> So maybe the letter B means it's better.  Yes, we'll go with that.
> 
> But seriously, should I sell the model A and spring for the B variant?


I'd doubt there'd be that much of a difference. With 6080s the first round usually sound better.


----------



## attmci (Jul 23, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Pics attached.
> 
> And @JKDJedi I actually did have the Chatham paired with a Bad Boy when I was using it.



You need to try to find a Chatham or Tung sol with graphite anode like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-X-6080WB...796679?hash=item522eeff787:g:PgUAAOSwlPFeSv~f


Or these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Bendi...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## bcowen

Wes S said:


> My word, that kid is fat!  That can't be healthy!



Wes, Wes, Wes....that's terribly politically incorrect.  "Horizontally Ample" is much more acceptable, or perhaps "Vertically Challenged."


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 24, 2020)

Huge thanks to @Paladin79 on the excellent craftsmanship with the amp I received last night. Will have some fun re rolling my valves collection.


----------



## JKDJedi

Anyone here have the Thompson 6080? Think they're from Spain?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Anyone here have the Thompson 6080? Think they're from Spain?


I would have thought France since there is a Thompson company from there that bought RCA at one point. I heard one a couple years ago and it is a very good tube, not a Tung Sol 5998 but decent.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 25, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I would have thought France since there is a Thompson company from there that bought RCA at one point. I heard one a couple years ago and it is a very good tube, not a Tung Sol 5998 but decent.


Yes...France!... Found a pair for a decent price, just anxious to get thoughts on them. I meant to grab one a few months back but overseas pricing was, well... A lot.


Did a quick search right here on this very thread...and it seems like the Thompson (bright) is the opposite of the Mullard (warm)...interesting.


----------



## zeroduke

JKDJedi said:


> Anyone here have the Thompson 6080? Think they're from Spain?


They are from France.  Excellent and beautiful valves!   Now in my WooAudio WA2.  Clear sound.  Outrageous box.


----------



## Paladin79

I need to build a Faraday cage for the transformer but otherwise my work is done.
Listening to two Tung Sol tubes. Power tube is the 5998 of course.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I need to build a Faraday cage for the transformer but otherwise my work is done.
> Listening to two Tung Sol tubes. Power tube is the 5998 of course.


Grey glass Tung Sol? 🤔 Nice amp, as always.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Grey glass Tung Sol? 🤔 Nice amp, as always.


Yep a grey glass Tung Sol but it is impossible to tell if it has round plates


----------



## LoryWiv (Jul 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Anyone here have the Thompson 6080? Think they're from Spain?


Hi @JKDJedi. Yep, from France as others have said, and a generally well-balanced power tube. Not overly warm, stage is good, pairs well with several different drivers I've tried in Feliks-Audio Elise. Given reasonable cost compared other 6080's like Bendix, Chatham etc....I think they are worth picking up.


----------



## kimdeug (Jul 26, 2020)

Just nice picture from my collection)
If you understand , what I am talking about)

Regards from new Zealand
Kim


----------



## JKDJedi

kimdeug said:


> Just nice picture from my collection)
> 
> Regards from new Zealand
> Kim


PM sent


----------



## kimdeug

JKDJedi said:


> PM sent


Answered


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 26, 2020)

@JKDJedi - OMG!  You've got 'Tube Acquisition Syndrome' to the extreme!  

Best start looking for an apartment and thinking about your eHarmony profile. You can't hide your affliction from wifey forever.   😄


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> @JKDJedi - OMG!  You've got 'Tube Acquisition Syndrome' to the extreme!
> 
> Best start looking for an apartment and thinking about your eHarmony profile. You can't hide your affliction from wifey forever.   😄


HahahahahahHAhhhha.. no shame in my game..I'm like a dog in heat right now...  did you see the lower getter 5998 in those pics...i had to pick my lower jaw off the floor.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 26, 2020)

And since I'm on this thread for the morning coffee session... this album is freakn awesome..think they got a grammy for it..
https://tidal.com/browse/album/325149


----------



## sonic2911

Hi guys, i'm newbie to tube world. My amp is bottlehead crack, it's with SB too. AFAIK my tubes are 6080 and 12au7.
So what should I start from now?


----------



## JKDJedi

sonic2911 said:


> Hi guys, i'm newbie to tube world. My amp is bottlehead crack, it's with SB too. AFAIK my tubes are 6080 and 12au7.
> So what should I start from now?


read back 10 pages and go from there... LOTS OF INFO HERE


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Jul 26, 2020)

sonic2911 said:


> Hi guys, i'm newbie to tube world. My amp is bottlehead crack, it's with SB too. AFAIK my tubes are 6080 and 12au7.
> So what should I start from now?


Wait, are you me from 3 months ago???

My advice - get a 6sn7 adapter from @Deyan to roll 6sn7 into your 9 pin socket (where the 12au7 is).  Then watch as your bank account begins to slowly drain from tube acquisition.

But seriously I would think hard about what sound you are looking to achieve and then buy tubes that fit that sound.  The folks here are super helpful in helping to match tubes to your taste.

Also, I would consider also buying a good 6as7g like Svetlana Winged C.  It's cheap and sounds quite different from the two 6080s I've used (Mullard and Chatham).

I like the 12au7 but in my opinion the 6sn7 is the superior tube and seems to possess more influence on changes to the BHC sound.

What headphones and DAC are you using???


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> And since I'm on this thread for the morning coffee session... this album is freakn awesome..think they got a grammy for it..
> https://tidal.com/browse/album/325149


This was my jam in high school, blasting it from my rickety Chevy S-10.

Rediscovering this record from an audiophile perspective has been fun.


----------



## sonic2911

PsilocybinCube said:


> Wait, are you me from 3 months ago???
> 
> My advice - get a 6sn7 adapter from @Deyan to roll 6sn7 into your 9 pin socket (where the 12au7 is).  Then watch as your bank account begins to slowly drain from tube acquisition.
> 
> ...


My DAC is SMSL SU8, and my headphone is hd600 rev2019.
I have just ordered the centro 7236, the cheapest possible for me to try first ) now i'm looking for driver tube, 12au7 variants


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 27, 2020)

Hey guys, going through this thread and there's mixed reviews on the *Tung Sol 6520* (_Domino Plates Version_).. Some say they prefer it over the 5998 and other's are saying it's just another Chatham 6AS7G... thoughts? Any history between the two would be highly appreciated.

" The 6520 itself is not all that rare but this particular type, which uses the plates from 5998 tubes is said to be one of the rarest and best sounding of this family of tubes".  - @n_maher

"From the datasheets, it is evident that the 5998 is the "super tube" in the Tung-Sol 6AS7G family, with double the transconductance of both the "improved" 6520 and the "standard" 6AS7G (14000 per section vs. 7000 ). Also, it has a 5.5 amplification factor vs. 2 in the others. How these specs translate into sonic benefits is another matter...so, I correct myself, 6520 and 5998 are different tubes. Cheers".. - @Johnnysound


----------



## kimdeug (Jul 28, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Hey guys, going through this thread and there's mixed reviews on the *Tung Sol 6520* (_Domino Plates Version_).. Some say they prefer it over the 5998 and other's are saying it's just another Chatham 6AS7G... thoughts? Any history between the two would be highly appreciated.
> 
> " The 6520 itself is not all that rare but this particular type, which uses the plates from 5998 tubes is said to be one of the rarest and best sounding of this family of tubes".  - @n_maher
> 
> "From the datasheets, it is evident that the 5998 is the "super tube" in the Tung-Sol 6AS7G family, with double the transconductance of both the "improved" 6520 and the "standard" 6AS7G (14000 per section vs. 7000 ). Also, it has a 5.5 amplification factor vs. 2 in the others. How these specs translate into sonic benefits is another matter...so, I correct myself, 6520 and 5998 are different tubes. Cheers".. - @Johnnysound


Lets say the simple way 6520(5998) sounds like 5998, and 6520 (6AS7GT) sounds like Chatham 6AS7GT.
Few pictures of my 6520(6AS7GT) and WE 421A(super 5998)-
IMHO 421A is the best sounding  tube of this family (for my ears)


----------



## JKDJedi

kimdeug said:


> Lets say the simple way 6520(5998) sounds like 5998, and 6520 (6AS7GT) sounds like Chatham 6AS7GT.
> Few pictures of my 6520(6AS7GT) and WE 421A(super 5998)-
> IMHO 421A is the best sounding  tube of this family (for my ears)


I concur, have one, just curious about the 6520 and it's relation to the 5998. Nice collection there.


----------



## kimdeug

JKDJedi said:


> I concur, have one, just curious about the 6520 and it's relation to the 5998. Nice collection there.



Thank You. 

Now I am hunting for KT88,KT66. EL34 and 6L6 tubes as the new baby came to my house last week Cayin HA-6A

Regards, Kim


----------



## JKDJedi

kimdeug said:


> Thank You.
> 
> Now I am hunting for KT88,KT66. EL34 and 6L6 tubes as the new baby came to my house last week Cayin HA-6A
> 
> Regards, Kim


Noticed the La Figaro immediately..and that Cayin is no slouch.  ..Congrats! Beautiful Amp.


----------



## kimdeug

JKDJedi said:


> Noticed the La Figaro immediately..and that Cayin is no slouch.  ..Congrats! Beautiful Amp.


Thanks  a lot. I hope this is an endgame headphone amplifier in my collection.
The picture of another side of my room.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

sonic2911 said:


> My DAC is SMSL SU8, and my headphone is hd600 rev2019.
> I have just ordered the centro 7236, the cheapest possible for me to try first ) now i'm looking for driver tube, 12au7 variants


For what it's worth, I got a Westinghouse Voice of Music 12au7 that I really enjoy.  It's pretty bassy though and may be a bit much with the HD600.  
Tung Sol has a tall 12au7 (the specific version escapes me) that is very, very detailed and pretty well balanced.
The RCA Clear Glass is the 12au7 that Doc at Bottlehead likes to promote, along with some of the Mullard and Telefunken tubes.  I believe the RCA is probably a bit less expensive.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 28, 2020)

kimdeug said:


> Thanks  a lot. I hope this is an endgame headphone amplifier in my collection.
> The picture of another side of my room.


Woah.... Holy Headphones Collectionitus .. very nice .. wishing I had you as my neighbor. ,😁

quick question...of those, which one has the most use?


----------



## kimdeug (Jul 28, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Woah.... Holy Headphones Collectionitus .. very nice .. wishing I had you as my neighbor. ,😁
> 
> quick question...of those, which one has the most use?


Thanks.
You will not believe, but mostly I am using AKG Q701 and 7XX. They are heavily modified to my taste, as almost all my other headphones. Even Argon Mk3 was modified to reduce amount of bass.
AKG Q701, 7XX mods: 4pin XLR, 3D earpads ring, Brainwaves earpads, slightly opened membrane port, internal dumping to reduce reverberation, actuation rings, replaced internal wiring with shielded cable.
There are few new headphones I am testing now and like them a lot. Picture below.


----------



## kimdeug

JKDJedi said:


> read back 10 pages and go from there... LOTS OF INFO HERE


Also I can see you have IBasso IT01 - very good choice. I have IT01 and IT01S and love them very much. IT01S is one of my favourite.


----------



## LoryWiv

kimdeug said:


> Now I am hunting for KT88,KT66. EL34 and 6L6 tubes as the new baby came to my house last week Cayin HA-6A


The Feliks-Audio Elise and Euforia threads have a lot of impressions and information about KT66, KT77, KT88, 7581A, 6L6 and 6VG as many owners (myself included) use them on the FA amps with adapters. That family of tubes has been a game changer for me...happy hunting!


----------



## SHIMACM

kimdeug said:


> Thanks.
> You will not believe, but mostly I am using AKG Q701 and 7XX. They are heavily modified to my taste, as almost all my other headphones. Even Argon Mk3 was modified to reduce amount of bass.
> AKG Q701, 7XX mods: 4pin XLR, 3D earpads ring, Brainwaves earpads, slightly opened membrane port, internal dumping to reduce reverberation, actuation rings, replaced internal wiring with shielded cable.
> There are few new headphones I am testing now and like them a lot. Picture below.



I also have an AKG K7XX. I can't get rid of him. On my Arcam rhead the k7xx sounds better than my T1. In Darkvoice ..... T1 slays the k7xx.
I keep thinking about the T1 in these cutting-edge tube amplifiers.


----------



## SHIMACM

PsilocybinCube said:


> For what it's worth, I got a Westinghouse Voice of Music 12au7 that I really enjoy.  It's pretty bassy though and may be a bit much with the HD600.
> Tung Sol has a tall 12au7 (the specific version escapes me) that is very, very detailed and pretty well balanced.
> The RCA Clear Glass is the 12au7 that Doc at Bottlehead likes to promote, along with some of the Mullard and Telefunken tubes.  I believe the RCA is probably a bit less expensive.



Combinations I love on my T1:

Kenrad vt231 and RCA 6as7g.

Chatham 6as7g and RCA vt231 gray glass.

Mullard 6080 and RCA vt231 gray glass.

Tung-sol 5998 and RCA vt231 / Kenrad vt231.

The first combination is the cheapest, taking into account that KenRad is made of transparent glass. But it has a great sound.


----------



## Wes S

SHIMACM said:


> Combinations I love on my T1:
> 
> Kenrad vt231 and RCA 6as7g.
> 
> ...


Nice combos there, blending neutral/bright tubes with warm ones, which I imagine is a must with the famous Beyer treble.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Wes S said:


> Nice combos there, blending neutral/bright tubes with warm ones, which I imagine is a must with the famous Beyer treble.


What is the difference between t1 and HD800?  Are they too similar to bother with owning both?  

And I concur about the tube blends.  On my HD800 I have found quite the affinity for a clear 6as7g with a punchy, warm 6sn7.  

Currently I'm using a cheapo Sylvania Bad-Boy with the Svetlana Winged C and loving it.  Helps that the combo costs less than $100.


----------



## SHIMACM

PsilocybinCube said:


> What is the difference between t1 and HD800?  Are they too similar to bother with owning both?
> 
> And I concur about the tube blends.  On my HD800 I have found quite the affinity for a clear 6as7g with a punchy, warm 6sn7.
> 
> Currently I'm using a cheapo Sylvania Bad-Boy with the Svetlana Winged C and loving it.  Helps that the combo costs less than $100.



If it works well on my T1, it should work well on your hd800. The differences between the two have topics and discussion topics, with some preferring the hd800 ((bigger stage (but less precise) but more clinical)) and others preferring T1 ((more musical, more precise stage (but a little smaller)) But both share the highs that need to be tamed.


----------



## SHIMACM

Wes S said:


> Nice combos there, blending neutral/bright tubes with warm ones, which I imagine is a must with the famous Beyer treble.



The T1's treble with these combinations are tamed and look wonderful.


----------



## Wes S

SHIMACM said:


> The T1's treble with these combinations are tamed and look wonderful.


I have never heard the T1, but have owned the DT1770 & DT1990, so I am familiar with Beyer treble and the taming with tubes, and it is almost as if they were made for each other.  I can only imagine how awesome the T1's sound with those tube combos.


----------



## SHIMACM

Wes S said:


> I have never heard the T1, but have owned the DT1770 & DT1990, so I am familiar with Beyer treble and the taming with tubes, and it is almost as if they were made for each other.  I can only imagine how awesome the T1's sound with those tube combos.



I know there are much better audio equipment out there, but the synergy between T1 and Darkvoice and those tubes I mentioned is divine. I can't imagine anything better, even though I know there is better. My T1 is the 1st generation, famous for the excessive treble. But when they are tamed, pure magic happens, and what is shown is the most beautiful and detailed treble I have ever heard. The T1 connected to the Arcam rHead is thin, shiny and totally dull. In Darkvoice with the right valves it sounds full, silky, detailed with excellent bass and very high resolution on a wide, deep and 3D stage. It is as if it became a 10x more expensive phone. I am extremely happy with the T1. I'm just imagining it in more expensive amplifiers like DNA etc.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> I have never heard the T1, but have owned the DT1770 & DT1990, so I am familiar with Beyer treble and the taming with tubes, and it is almost as if they were made for each other.  I can only imagine how awesome the T1's sound with those tube combos.


Somewhat in the same ballpark with my DT770 250ohm cans... (I think his T1 are 600ohm) the Beyerdynamic treble is prominent. Leather Dekoni pads and tubed amplification is tips with them.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jul 30, 2020)

Stoked... The Tung Sol 6520 just arrived and the Thompson's get here tomorrow. 😁


----------



## zeroduke

SHIMACM said:


> If it works well on my T1, it should work well on your hd800. The differences between the two have topics and discussion topics, with some preferring the hd800 ((bigger stage (but less precise) but more clinical)) and others preferring T1 ((more musical, more precise stage (but a little smaller)) But both share the highs that need to be tamed.



Right.  I've got both of them with the WooAudio WA2 (Bendix 6080, Philips e88CC, Mullard EZ81).  The difference it's like you have said.  I like T1 the most.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

zeroduke said:


> Right.  I've got both of them with the WooAudio WA2 (Bendix 6080, Philips e88CC, Mullard EZ81).  The difference it's like you have said.  I like T1 the most.


I use the HD800 at home and the HD650 at work...perhaps I'll buy a pair of T1.2 headphones for the work setup.  Even the HD650 is like an old buddy, I can't help but feel it is a muddy and closed in relative to the HD800. 

Any ZMF folks able to comment on soundstage/overall impressions of the ZMF Auteur or Verite?  Those are the two headphones on my 'next purchase' list.


----------



## SHIMACM

zeroduke said:


> Right.  I've got both of them with the WooAudio WA2 (Bendix 6080, Philips e88CC, Mullard EZ81).  The difference it's like you have said.  I like T1 the most.



Have you heard of Darkvoice?


----------



## JKDJedi

Wow ...this is the best packaged tube I've ever received. And what a looker.. about to give it a roll. *Thompson 6080WA*


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 31, 2020)

I have one and the box is ENORMOUS!!!!  Not a bad tube at all, but you have several others that I think you would rank higher.  Of course they are more $$$ than the Thomson.


----------



## zeroduke

PsilocybinCube said:


> I use the HD800 at home and the HD650 at work...perhaps I'll buy a pair of T1.2 headphones for the work setup.  Even the HD650 is like an old buddy, I can't help but feel it is a muddy and closed in relative to the HD800.
> 
> Any ZMF folks able to comment on soundstage/overall impressions of the ZMF Auteur or Verite?  Those are the two headphones on my 'next purchase' list.



Nice.  The HD650 is also part of my collection.  Excellent headphones indeed.  HD800 and HD650 are opposite extremes.  Both make a good pair.  T1 would be a good complement too.  Otherwise, another good complement would be the AKGs K712 or Q701.


----------



## adeadcrab

kimdeug said:


> Thank You.
> 
> Now I am hunting for KT88,KT66. EL34 and 6L6 tubes as the new baby came to my house last week Cayin HA-6A
> 
> Regards, Kim


nice LF339


----------



## adeadcrab

JKDJedi said:


> Wow ...this is the best packaged tube I've ever received. And what a looker.. about to give it a roll. *Thompson 6080WA*


I had a 6080WC that arced and died - not good construction. It was $10 though. Hope the WA is better! Had a clean sound, not warm at all.


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> I had a 6080WC that arced and died - not good construction. It was $10 though. Hope the WA is better! Had a clean sound, not warm at all.


Thanks, yes very clean, most neutral 6080 I have so far. Has some some heft to it. From my experiences the early versions of any said 6080 was always better.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks, yes very clean, most neutral 6080 I have so far. Has some some heft to it. From my experiences the early versions of any said 6080 was always better.


Silly question, but are there any French 6080s with French language rather than English?  Fabrique en France...


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Silly question, but are there any French 6080s with French language rather than English?  Fabrique en France...


Is there any 6AS7G (or equivalent) tube in it's native language..  Good question, not silly. I have yet to see any tube not spelled out in English.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Is there any 6AS7G (or equivalent) tube in it's native language..  Good question, not silly. I have yet to see any tube not spelled out in English.



http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/020/6/6080WA.pdf
http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/181/6/6080S.pdf
http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/173/6/6080.pdf
http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/020/6/6080.pdf


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/020/6/6080WA.pdf
> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/181/6/6080S.pdf
> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/173/6/6080.pdf
> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/020/6/6080.pdf


The actual tubes tend to all be stamped in English,


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> The actual tubes tend to all be stamped in English,



Yeah, at the conclusion of WWII, America’s military and economic dominance established the octal base and 6.3 volts for radio tubes as world standards. Prior to that, 4 volts and various bases, such as B4, German steel Y8A, and European side-contact were the norm in Europe. And since most pre-war production was oriented toward domestic use, text indicating the country of origin was not common. With the economies of Europe in tatters after the war, European manufacturers, especially Philips, turned their eyes toward the vast and booming American market. So yes, English has been the standard since the end of WWII.


----------



## zeroduke

SHIMACM said:


> Have you heard of Darkvoice?



I've heard of Darkvoice but I've never had the opportunity to try it.


----------



## zeroduke

JKDJedi said:


> Wow ...this is the best packaged tube I've ever received. And what a looker.. about to give it a roll. *Thompson 6080WA*



These French valves are also a beauty.  And I  like very much the clear sound of them too.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> Yeah, at the conclusion of WWII, America’s military and economic dominance established the octal base and 6.3 volts for radio tubes as world standards. Prior to that, 4 volts and various bases, such as B4, German steel Y8A, and European side-contact were the norm in Europe. And since most pre-war production was oriented toward domestic use, text indicating the country of origin was not common. With the economies of Europe in tatters after the war, European manufacturers, especially Philips, turned their eyes toward the vast and booming American market. So yes, English has been the standard since the end of WWII.


Thanks for the explanation.  That makes perfect sense.  Very interesting.

So, 1930s tubes would be more likely to feature other languages. I have never even seen a tube from the 30s and I might have to track some down now!


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Thanks for the explanation.  That makes perfect sense.  Very interesting.
> 
> So, 1930s tubes would be more likely to feature other languages. I have never even seen a tube from the 30s and I might have to track some down now!



I don't know...  I have over forty 4-volt European rectifiers, manufactured in the 1930's, 40's and 50's. Most have the brand, logo and tube number, but no other writing. And with the exception of some of the British tubes, none have any text indicating the country of origin.

For example, the 1861, which was manufactured by Philips (Eindhoven) from 1933 to about 1938:


----------



## attmci (Aug 2, 2020)

attmci said:


> You need to try to find a Chatham or Tung sol with graphite anode like this one:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-X-6080WB...796679?hash=item522eeff787:g:PgUAAOSwlPFeSv~f
> 
> ...


Deleted.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

attmci said:


> Nice tubes
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/283960795244?_trksid=p11021.c100851.m5053&_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20170803121420&meid=58ece786ff9a47c6b68287e9e8a7fcea&pid=100851&rk=3&rkt=4&mehot=none&b=1&sd=174373796318&itm=283960795244&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=11021&algv=DefaultOrganic&brand=Bendix&ul_noapp=true
> ...


I appreciate the recommendation you made on these tubes.

I'd buy them, but I just went on a little inadvertent 6sn7 buying binge after drinking a bit too much rye.

At first I didn't like the Chatham 6080 that I'd purchased, but @JKDJedi gave me some good tube pairing suggestions (and I had the tube he recommended) and I am much happier with it now.


----------



## Ripper2860

attmci said:


> Nice tubes
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/283960795244?_trksid=p11021.c100851.m5053&_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20170803121420&meid=58ece786ff9a47c6b68287e9e8a7fcea&pid=100851&rk=3&rkt=4&mehot=none&b=1&sd=174373796318&itm=283960795244&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=11021&algv=DefaultOrganic&brand=Bendix&ul_noapp=true
> ...



BTW -- The seller states that these are NOT graphite plate tubes.  They are steel plates.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- The seller states that these are NOT graphite plate tubes.  They are steel plates.


Those have been listed for a good while, because of that.  Buyers beware.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- The seller states that these are NOT graphite plate tubes.  They are steel plates.


Hawk Eyes!!!


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- The seller states that these are NOT graphite plate tubes.  They are steel plates.


I have no idea what the seller had claimed about the plate. 

However, other concern is the bottom part, never saw a plastic one. Any one wanna give these a try?  The price is good.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> I have no idea what the seller had claimed about the plate.
> 
> However, other concern is the bottom part, never saw a plastic one. Any one wanna give these a try?  The price is good.


If things are roses I'll have a few of these (graphite plates) in a month or two... Dang snail mail.. 😒


----------



## attmci (Aug 2, 2020)

I installed a pair of Bendix with the solid plates, and they sound great.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bendix-6080-plates.491456/


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> I installed a pair of Bendix with the solid plates, and they sound great.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bendix-6080-plates.491456/


I have one that looked like it was smuggled in someone's...eh hem, no print at all, looks carbon copy like that one but slotted.


----------



## Ripper2860

attmci said:


> I have no idea what the seller had claimed about the plate.
> 
> However, other concern is the bottom part, never saw a plastic one. Any one wanna give these a try?  The price is good.




I suspect he had many inquire as the images are not clear.  He has added steel plates to the description section of his listing.


----------



## gibosi (Aug 2, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I suspect he had many inquire as the images are not clear.  He has added steel plates to the description section of his listing.



Interestingly, I have a pair of Raytheon 6080WB that look identical to these: three ceramic spacers and metal plates. I had always assumed they were manufactured by Raytheon, but now I wonder... Did Raytheon make them? Bendix?


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> Interestingly, I have a pair of Raytheon 6080WB that look identical to these: three ceramic spacers and metal plates. I had always assumed they were manufactured by Raytheon, but now I wonder... Did Raytheon make them? Bendix?


Ken, buy these. None of us will bid. LOL


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> Ken, buy these. None of us will bid. LOL



I already have a pair. My Raytheons are identical. I think you should buy them!  lol


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> I already have a pair. My Raytheons are identical. I think you should buy them!  lol


They sound like..well, Bendix? The plates version. Or are the graphite plates just for reliability?


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> Interestingly, I have a pair of Raytheon 6080WB that look identical to these: three ceramic spacers and metal plates. I had always assumed they were manufactured by Raytheon, but now I wonder... Did Raytheon make them? Bendix?




Raytheon is a 6080 loser, I doubt Raytheon made any 6080 tubes. Most of the Raytheon 6080 tubes I've seen so far were rebranded RCA 6080's, the remaining few were Bendix. 

The ceramic supporting structures are unique to Bendix, so I suspect the ones you have were also made by Bendix. I guess there were some cost cutting activities going on in the latter cycle of 6080 production, where Bendix replaced the more expensive graphite plates with some cheaper metal plates.

The key is how the metal plates Bendix sounds, similar to graphite plates or some metal-plate 6080's?


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Raytheon is a 6080 loser, I doubt Raytheon made any 6080 tubes. Most of the Raytheon 6080 tubes I've seen so far were rebranded RCA 6080's, the remaining few were Bendix.
> 
> The ceramic supporting structures are unique to Bendix, so I suspect the ones you have were also made by Bendix. I guess there were some cost cutting activities going on in the latter cycle of 6080 production, where Bendix replaced the more expensive graphite plates with some cheaper metal plates.
> 
> The key is how the metal plates Bendix sounds, similar to graphite plates or some metal-plate 6080's?


I concur... Anybody know?


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Ken, buy these. None of us will bid. LOL





Someone here posted the pair of metal paltes Bendix 6080 couple of months ago, for around $80 I remember. And they were sold to someone later.

I guess the guy who bought them now re-lists the pair of metal plates Bendix.


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> I concur... Anybody know?



I'm waiting to see if you can actually hear any difference between the TS 6520 you bought and the TS 5998s.


----------



## gibosi (Aug 2, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> They sound like..well, Bendix? The plates version. Or are the graphite plates just for reliability?



Very frankly, it's been several years since I listened to them and I simply don't remember.... But I don't think I was impressed...

And I am inclined to agree with cddc that it is likely that Bendix made these, the ceramic spacers and metal support structures look to be identical to the typical Bendix 6080. However, Raytheon did manufacture the 6336 and the 6528 with graphite plates so it makes me wonder why they didn't manufacture a 6080 with graphite plates.

Edit: The 6336 and 6528 have 5 amp heaters and it is often said that one of either of these is equivalent to two 6080.

A second edit: My Glenn OTL can run a pair of 6336 or 6528 or 2 pairs of 6080. But it is best done in the winter. lol


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm waiting to see if you can actually hear any difference between the TS 6520 you bought and the TS 5998s.


I did! I'm brain dead today, don't want to say they sound like Sonny & Cher.... Oops...let me get back to that thought... 😒


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Very frankly, it's been several years since I listened to them and I simply don't remember.... But I don't think I was impressed...
> 
> And I am inclined to agree with cddc that it is likely that Bendix made these, the ceramic spacers and metal support structures look to be identical to the typical Bendix 6080. However, Raytheon did manufacture the 6336 and the 6528 with graphite plates so it makes me wonder why they didn't manufacture a 6080 with graphite plates.
> 
> ...


Are we talking about two different tubes here? The one on the left is clearly printed in red type saying BENDIX. Why are we referring them as Raytheon?


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm waiting to see if you can actually hear any difference between the TS 6520 you bought and the TS 5998s.




I told Jedi a few months ago in the DV336SE thread that he "hosts" , that 6520 is either a 5998 (dimpled plates) or a 6AS7G. I guess Jedi decided to find it out by himself.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Are we talking about two different tubes here? The one on the left is clearly printed in red type saying BENDIX. Why are we referring them as Raytheon?



Because I have an identical pair with metal plates sporting the Raytheon brand.


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> I told Jedi a few months ago in the DV336SE thread that he "hosts" , that 6520 is either a 5998 (dimpled plates) or a 6AS7G. I guess Jedi decided to find it out by himself.



The data sheet for the 6520 indicates that it is simply a better 6AS7G. It is not the same as a 5998. But sometimes we see a 6520 with dimpled plates. In the real world, sometimes tubes are mislabeled.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> I told Jedi a few months ago in the DV336SE thread that he "hosts" , that 6520 is either a 5998 (dimpled plates) or a 6AS7G. I guess Jedi decided to find it out by himself.


I just had too... 😁 Comparing the Chatham 6AS7G, Tung Sol (IBM) 5998, and Tung Sol 6520... We have a user here who has two dozen of these tubes (each) who could probably describe it better. Of course we tend to adore the "new" tube the most.. so waiting to get over the honeymoon to know for sure what I'm hearing is what I'm hearing.. 😉


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Because I have an identical pair with metal plates sporting the Raytheon brand.


Copy, that's correct...I'm back on the same page now . . And your thoughts on the sound compared to graphite plated Bendix? (If you already said I'll shut up rest of the day and just read...maybe) 😁


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 2, 2020)

cddc said:


> I told Jedi a few months ago in the DV336SE thread that he "hosts" , that 6520 is either a 5998 (dimpled plates) or a 6AS7G. I guess Jedi decided to find it out by himself.



He scored a domino dimpled plate 6520 labeled tube.  Curious to see if his comparo lines up with what I've read elsewhere.  I've seen the TS domino dimpled plate and the TS 6AS7G-style plate versions of the 6520 listed before and wondered which was correctly labeled.


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> He scored a domino dimpled plate 6520 labeled tube.  Curious to see if his comparo lines up with what I've read elsewhere.  I've seen the domino dimpled plate and the 6AS7G-style plate versions of the 6520 listed before and wondered which was correctly labeled.



Let's see what Jedi has to say after his honeymoon with 6520


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 2, 2020)

gibosi said:


> The data sheet for the 6520 indicates that it is simply a better 6AS7G. It is not the same as a 5998. But sometimes we see a 6520 with dimpled plates. In the real world, sometimes tubes are mislabeled.


It's not as refined as the 5998 (a touch warmer), although highly musical. If I'm reading this right the 6as7g grid plate rating is 275v, where the 6520 is 600v (and I don't know what that means) the 6520 was built for additional balance between sections, stable plate currents and grid-plate insulation... layman's terms... It a very smooth tube. 
(So after the honeymoon we'll see if she's my favorite still)😁


----------



## attmci (Aug 2, 2020)

gibosi said:


> I already have a pair. My Raytheons are identical. I think you should buy them!  lol


I have enough pairs of these. Thanks.

There are a bunch of pictures here.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Bendix-6080WB-Red-Bank-Tubes-USA-BUYERS-ONLY-/274399160203?hash=item3fe376e78b:g:TukAAOSwfPFe36cG&nma=true&si=nB%2FzJR9YuZ9Zz016ujo6gUxrSSY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

None of mine Bendix 6080WB looks like these. Hmmmmmmm


Oh, no, who is the idiot purchased these fake:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-PIECES-B...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## attmci

PsilocybinCube said:


> I appreciate the recommendation you made on these tubes.
> 
> I'd buy them, but I just went on a little inadvertent 6sn7 buying binge after drinking a bit too much rye.
> 
> At first I didn't like the Chatham 6080 that I'd purchased, but @JKDJedi gave me some good tube pairing suggestions (and I had the tube he recommended) and I am much happier with it now.


Don't buy those. I deleted the link.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> I have enough pairs of these. Thanks.
> 
> There are a bunch of pictures here.
> 
> ...


And they're gone!! Who won the pair? Was it @gibosi 🤔


----------



## gibosi (Aug 3, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> And they're gone!! Who won the pair? Was it @gibosi 🤔



It wasn't me! lol 

However, I find it interesting that this auction was not scheduled to end for another 5 hours or so. I wrote down the auction ending date and time because I wanted to check back to see the results. So someone must have made an offer and it was accepted.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> It wasn't me! lol
> 
> However, I find it interesting that this auction was not scheduled to end for another 5 hours or so. I wrote down the auction ending date and time because I wanted to check back to see the results. So someone must have made an offer and it was accepted.


Someone is following our discussion. The tubes are still available.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> Someone is following our discussion. The tubes are still available.



Yeah, they have been relisted! Strange....


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Yeah, they have been relisted! Strange....


Yeah...that was very weird, @Ripper2860 probably made him an offer then declined with a change of heart....🤔


----------



## Ripper2860

I offered to take them off his hands for $50 and he accepted.  That is until he realized that I meant send me the tubes and $50 as an offsite storage fee.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I offered to take them off his hands for $50 and he accepted.  That is until he realized that I meant send me the tubes and $50 as an offsite storage fee.


,🤣🤣🤣


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> I offered to take them off his hands for $50 and he accepted.  That is until he realized that I meant send me the tubes and $50 as an offsite storage fee.


I offered him $247.45


----------



## Ripper2860

Seriously -- I don't really know anything about or have any experience with the Bendix steel plate 6080.  It could be a fantastic tube for all I know.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Seriously -- I don't really know anything about or have any experience with the Bendix steel plate 6080.  It could be a fantastic tube for all I know.


I was tempted... Especially at the 8 minute mark...hope whoever got them chimes in with their thoughts on them.


----------



## Ripper2860

Your not out of the running.  They've been relisted.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-pair-of-...508051?hash=item3fe667e493:g:PKUAAOSwuSxfHw6-


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Your not out of the running.  They've been relisted.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-pair-of-...508051?hash=item3fe667e493:g:PKUAAOSwuSxfHw6-


🤣🤣 .. wow... What in the world...


----------



## JKDJedi

Well... And they're gone again!? 🤣🤣.... Anybody here grab them? @Ripper2860  did you get them this time!?


----------



## Ripper2860

Nope.  Not me.


----------



## Ripper2860

Dammmm.  I'm suffering form eBay whiplash!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Nope.  Not me.


Well if they're crap I might send you one... 😉


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 3, 2020)

OMG.  If it was really you, I think Bill and I will need to host a Tube Addict intervention -- and you're paying for airfare and hotel!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> OMG.  If it was really you, I think Bill and I will need to host a Tube Addict intervention -- and you're paying for airfare and hotel!!


Well... Yeah .. I need help... 😒. Hope they rock..😁


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Well... Yeah .. I need help... 😒. Hope they rock..😁


You only need one of those, you know???


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 4, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> You only need one of those, you know???


Got two amps... I'm selling off the weaker tube...or both, just needed to hear these guys. Black metal plates!? 🤔


----------



## Wes S (Aug 4, 2020)

Sucker!   Just kidding, and look forward to your impressions of those Bendix steel plates @JKDJedi.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wes S said:


> Sucker!   Just kidding, and look forward to your impressions of those Bendix steel plates @JKDJedi.


I tried contacting the seller, he keeps referring the tubes as belonging to the "owner".  I just want to be loved....that's all .. 😞, so I keep bugging him... Asking for info on the tubes...I think he's getting irritated...🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> OMG.  If it was really you, I think Bill and I will need to host a Tube Addict intervention -- and you're paying for airfare and hotel!!



I'm in remission -- haven't bought a tube in nearly 2 weeks.  That's impressive, right?


----------



## Ripper2860

Saving up for that liver transplant, I would think!!


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> Saving up for that liver transplant, I would think!!


Likely he'd be a difficult patient. When the doctors went to put a ventilator tube in him for surgery he'd want assurance it was true NOS with dual getters.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Likely he'd be a difficult patient. When the doctors went to put a ventilator tube in him for surgery he'd want assurance it was true NOS with dual getters.



LOL!  Dual D getters.  I'm allergic to round getters.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 7, 2020)

Ahhhh.... I love the smell of burnt dust in the morning.... She's cooking in...
The clay micas (three in total) add some heft to this tube. The black (very bottom of base) is different from the normal Bendix build (grey).
The steel plates are not separated like most 6080. Seems like the metal plate is joined into one oblonged circle. I can't tell if there's a seam there or just one solid piece of metal. Like the ceramic plated versions this tube needs at least 20 minutes of warm up before it settles down (especially in the vocals). So far  (from the few tubes I've rolled so far) the short bottle Sylvania 6SN7W is gelling best with the Bendix.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Ahhhh.... I love the smell of burnt dust in the morning.... She's cooking in...
> The clay micas (three in total) add some heft to this tube. The black (very bottom of base) is different from the normal Bendix build (grey).
> The steel plates are not separated like most 6080. Seems like the metal plate is joined into one oblonged circle. I can't tell if there's a seam there or just one solid piece of metal. Like the ceramic plated versions this tube needs at least 20 minutes of warm up before it settles down (especially in the vocals). So far  (from the few tubes I've rolled so far) the short bottle Sylvania 6SN7W is gelling best with the Bendix.



So how does it compare to the graphite plate?  Close?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> So how does it compare to the graphite plate?  Close?


I'll chime in a few hours.... Rolling da Dutchie..


bcowen said:


> So how does it compare to the graphite plate?  Close?


The million dollar question... Stay tuned...


----------



## Ripper2860

Tube reviews while impaired will be immediately invalidated...

Or applauded.   Depends on the review results!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Tube reviews while impaired will be immediately invalidated...
> 
> Or applauded.   Depends on the review results!!


the pressure!!


----------



## gibosi

Here's a pic of the same tube carrying a Raytheon label. The date code is smeared so I don't know when it was manufactured, but it has halo getter holders so likely around 1960, or later. I also notice that the plastic base around the pins of the Raytheon is white, not black.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 7, 2020)

gibosi said:


> Here's a pic of the same tube carrying a Raytheon label. The date code is smeared so I don't know when it was manufactured, but it has halo getter holders so likely around 1960, or later. I also notice that the plastic base around the pins of the Raytheon is white, not black.


This build slightly different, top getters extend right above the support rods, Double D's. (The way @Ripper2860 and @bcowen like em) 😁
Top reads TE-46 *7*19
I'm reading (page 195) they stopped manufacturing around 1964
After that Bendix- developed types were later marketed by others.. -*Tube Lore*


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> This build slightly different, top getters extend right above the support rods, Double D's. (The way @Ripper2860 and @bcowen like em) 😁
> Top reads TE-46 *7*19
> I'm reading (page 195) they stopped manufacturing around 1964
> After that Bendix- developed types were later marketed by others.. -*Tube Lore*



The Raytheon has no etching on top. But all of the graphite Bendix 6080WB I have seen have etched codes on top, as does yours. And TE-46 was their internal code for the 6080WB.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> This build slightly different, top getters extend right above the support rods, Double D's. (The way @Ripper2860 and @bcowen like em) 😁
> Top reads TE-46 *7*19
> I'm reading (page 195) they stopped manufacturing around 1964
> After that Bendix- developed types were later marketed by others.. -*Tube Lore*



How can you be listening to that tube when it's not in the amp?  Dangit...we're waiting for a listening impression.  I mean nice photos and all, but we need _answers_!! 

(no pressure of course)


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> How can you be listening to that tube when it's not in the amp?  Dangit...we're waiting for a listening impression.  I mean nice photos and all, but we need _answers_!!
> 
> (no pressure of course)


I'm trying to figure out if I'm giving, keeping, or selling the weaker tube.. 🤔


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm trying to figure out if I'm giving, keeping, or selling the weaker tube.. 🤔



Confucius said it is always better to give than receive keep or sell.  I think.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> I'm trying to figure out if I'm giving, keeping, or selling the weaker tube.. 🤔



I recommend keeping it. Sometime in the future, you might buy an amp that takes two output tubes. And if not, having a backup is always a good thing.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 7, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Confucius said it is always better to give than receive keep or sell.  I think.


It's not a graphite plated tube, those extend a little further with them nice surprise moments of (I don't remember that being there). That's my initial impression. I just got them so we'll see. Rolled a different driver tube and using the Senns now. The Graphite plated tubes are HUGE shoes too fill so not down about it at all. Currently trying to rank them with the rest of them in my head, I'm thinking for sure it's above the Mullard (maybe..). Lot of comparisons ahead of me this weekend.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> This build slightly different, top getters extend right above the support rods, Double D's. (The way @Ripper2860 and @bcowen like em) 😁
> Top reads TE-46 *7*19
> I'm reading (page 195) they stopped manufacturing around 1964
> After that Bendix- developed types were later marketed by others.. -*Tube Lore*


Sadly in 1964 my grandfather was injured in an accident making odd 6080 tubes with white plastic bases.

All he wants now, as an old man who spends all day listening to tube amps, is to have one of those old tubes back.  

Lo and behold, I find one of them online from a young man who rides mountain bikes and wants to share one of those elusive tubes.  I can't wait to receive this tube...please PM me for my grandfather's address.  It's my address.  We share an address.  We both like tube amps.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 8, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sadly in 1964 my grandfather was injured in an accident making odd 6080 tubes with white plastic bases.
> 
> All he wants now, as an old man who spends all day listening to tube amps, is to have one of those old tubes back.
> 
> Lo and behold, I find one of them online from a young man who rides mountain bikes and wants to share one of those elusive tubes.  I can't wait to receive this tube...please PM me for my grandfather's address.  It's my address.  We share an address.  We both like tube amps.


*R O F L *!!!!


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> *R O F L *!!!!


You should hook up that "grandfather" with one of these...they are 6080, and definitely odd...you can tell just from the logo.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> You should hook up that "grandfather" with one of these...they are 6080, and definitely odd...you can tell just from the logo.



LOL!  @PsilocybinCube didn't indicate he _hated_ his grandfather...


----------



## bcowen (Aug 8, 2020)

Any guesses on the Telefunken being genuine? I couldn't just *not* buy these for $35 (delivered) for all 4.  I figured I could sell the pair of Sylvanias for at least that...and possibly get lucky with the Tele. But I don't know if Telefunken ever even made a 6080.  Could be a relabeled GE, or worse -- a Philips ECG, in which case the box will explode on my doorstep (hopefully) as soon as the Post Office delivers it.


----------



## fuzzroffe

I know Telefunken made a 6080, but there’s also rebranded GE’s. Yours could be the real deal though, the Telefunken-branded GEs are marked 6080/6AS7 and not just 6080, and they also have the "standard" GE glass etching.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 8, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Any guesses on the Telefunken being genuine? I couldn't just *not* buy these for $35 (delivered) for all 4.  I figured I could sell the pair of Sylvanias for at least that...and possibly get lucky with the Tele. But I don't know if Telefunken ever even made a 6080.  Could be a relabeled GE, or worse -- a Philips ECG, in which case the box will explode on my doorstep (hopefully) as soon as the Post Office delivers it.


There was a listing of a genuine Telefunken 6080 out there that was tempting to grab ..  see if I can hunt that one down and post the pic here. In the voice of Arnold.... (I'll be back)
Edit: ---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken...647315?hash=item3b17293653:g:Qs4AAOSwi8dbYotf


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Any guesses on the Telefunken being genuine? I couldn't just *not* buy these for $35 (delivered) for all 4.  I figured I could sell the pair of Sylvanias for at least that...and possibly get lucky with the Tele. But I don't know if Telefunken ever even made a 6080.  Could be a relabeled GE, or worse -- a Philips ECG, in which case the box will explode on my doorstep (hopefully) as soon as the Post Office delivers it.



I had a brief look at this a while ago when I was looking for 6080.  I had this screenshot from a website about fake telefunken 6080 vs real.  Take it with a grain of salt, but its something to go by....so allegedly (as below) to the left is the genuine and the right are fakes.


----------



## JKDJedi

Whats in your amp this morning..(afternoon?)


gibosi said:


> I recommend keeping it. Sometime in the future, you might buy an amp that takes two output tubes. And if not, having a backup is always a good thing.


It is growing on me, nice headroom\soundstage. (And Dat Bass)


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> I know Telefunken made a 6080, but there’s also rebranded GE’s. Yours could be the real deal though, the Telefunken-branded GEs are marked 6080/6AS7 and not just 6080, and they also have the "standard" GE glass etching.



Thanks.  I'll pray for no etched dots.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I had a brief look at this a while ago when I was looking for 6080.  I had this screenshot from a website about fake telefunken 6080 vs real.  Take it with a grain of salt, but its something to go by....so allegedly (as below) to the left is the genuine and the right are fakes.



Thanks for that!  No 'Made in Germany' and no U starting the series number...oh well.  If it's a rebranded RCA or Sylvania I can live with that and still a pretty good deal (if they all test well). But my hopes are now dashed against the rocks.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> There was a listing of a genuine Telefunken 6080 out there that was tempting to grab ..  see if I can hunt that one down and post the pic here. In the voice of Arnold.... (I'll be back)
> Edit: ---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken...647315?hash=item3b17293653:g:Qs4AAOSwi8dbYotf



Vastly different internals, to be sure.  Bummer.  I'm officially going back into remission now.


----------



## fuzzroffe

bcowen said:


> Thanks.  I'll pray for no etched dots.


I have a couple of the rebranded GEs and they're not bad, honestly. You got a pretty good deal on the tubes anyway


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Whats in your amp this morning..(afternoon?)
> 
> It is growing on me, nice headroom\soundstage. (And Dat Bass)



What's in my amp?

Two clear-top 5998, a Cossor 53KU rectifier and a pair of EL3N pentodes.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Any guesses on the Telefunken being genuine? I couldn't just *not* buy these for $35 (delivered) for all 4.  I figured I could sell the pair of Sylvanias for at least that...and possibly get lucky with the Tele. But I don't know if Telefunken ever even made a 6080.  Could be a relabeled GE, or worse -- a Philips ECG, in which case the box will explode on my doorstep (hopefully) as soon as the Post Office delivers it.



The Telefunken 6080 in pic is definitely a fake one, it's an RCA 8080 - if you have a closer look, it looks exactly the same as the RCA 6080 at the bottom of the pic.

I've also seen fake Telefunken 6080's that are actually GE 6080s.

The Telefenken box looks genuine though, not a bad deal at all for 4 tubes, especially given the genuine box 

Telefunken did make some 6080 tubes, but due to patent related reasons, they soon stopped making Telefunken 6080 tubes. The catch is that Telefunken 6080 sounds lean and dry, that's what I read. So I would never go for these Telefunken 6080s, especially given their crazy prices.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> What's in my amp?
> 
> Two clear-top 5998, a Cossor 53KU rectifier and a pair of EL3N pentodes.



Sweet!!

I use Mullard CV378's  (pretty much equivalent to a 53KU) in my big rig amp, but I've never tried the Cossor.  I'll put that on my list when I return from my remission sabbatical.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Any guesses on the Telefunken being genuine? I couldn't just *not* buy these for $35 (delivered) for all 4.  I figured I could sell the pair of Sylvanias for at least that...and possibly get lucky with the Tele. But I don't know if Telefunken ever even made a 6080.  Could be a relabeled GE, or worse -- a Philips ECG, in which case the box will explode on my doorstep (hopefully) as soon as the Post Office delivers it.



Here you go for comparison:


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> The Telefunken 6080 in pic is definitely a fake one, it's an RCA 8080 - if you have a closer look, it looks exactly the same as the RCA 6080 at the bottom of the pic.
> 
> I've also seen fake Telefunken 6080's that are actually GE 6080s.
> 
> ...



Thanks.  Maybe a rebranded RCA isn't such a bad thing then.  I have a love/hate relationship with Telefunkens -- some (like 1950's 6DJ8's) are end game tubes.  Others (like the EL34/6CA7) are rather ugly (to my ears).  Never know until you try, but at these prices I'm not spending big bucks to try the 6080.


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> The catch is that Telefunken 6080 sounds lean and dry, that's what I read.



I agree. I never listen to mine.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Sweet!!
> 
> I use Mullard CV378's  (pretty much equivalent to a 53KU) in my big rig amp, but I've never tried the Cossor.  I'll put that on my list when I return from my remission sabbatical.



If it is "fat" it's a Cossor. If it's "skinny", it's a Mullard.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> If it is "fat" it's a Cossor. If it's "skinny", it's a Mullard.




Gee...these rectifier tubes is another abyss to burn your money quick 🤣🤣🤣

Ken, as one of our top tube experts, what's your opinion towards SS vs tube rectifiers? What are the advantages of using tube rectifiers (other than having lots of different flavors by swapping rectifier tubes)


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> If it is "fat" it's a Cossor. If it's "skinny", it's a Mullard.



Mine are fat AND skinny.  

Of course the bottle shape may be specific to the CV378 versus a true 53KU...


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> Gee...these rectifier tubes is another abyss to burn your money quick 🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Ken, as one of our top tube experts, what's your opinion towards SS vs tube rectifiers? What are the advantages of using tube rectifiers (other than having lots of different flavors by swapping rectifier tubes)



For me having lots of flavors is the primary advantage, but in my opinion, they usually sound better. SS rectifiers typically add rather harsh odd-order harmonic distortion to the sound. However, HEXFRED rectifiers were designed to sound more like a tube, with even-order harmonic distortion. I have a HEXFRED installed in an octal socket and in my opinion it is very good. In fact, it's very similar to the Cossor 53KU. 

But again, different flavors is the primary advantage. I have around 100 rectifiers and I use them like tone controls. Add (or subtract) a bit more bass, add  (or subtract) a bit more air and/or add (or subtract) mid range emphasis, and so on....


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Gee...these rectifier tubes is another abyss to burn your money quick 🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Ken, as one of our top tube experts, what's your opinion towards SS vs tube rectifiers? What are the advantages of using tube rectifiers (other than having lots of different flavors by swapping rectifier tubes)



Funny thing...I have never "rolled" rectifier tubes in this amp, and it's not because I'm a "rectifier is a rectifier" kind of person. The amp's designer told me he'd tried a number of different ones in this design, and that he preferred the Mullards over anything else. That was enough for me so I've just stashed up on some replacements and wasted spent my money rolling 6922's, 12BH7's, and everything else.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Mine are fat AND skinny.
> 
> Of course the bottle shape may be specific to the CV378 versus a true 53KU...



No the CV378 is a military designation for a tube with certain specifications. Both the Mullard GZ37, in your picture, and the Cossor 53KU meet that specification, and you will find both them labeled as CV378.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Funny thing...I have never "rolled" rectifier tubes in this amp, and it's not because I'm a "rectifier is a rectifier" kind of person. The amp's designer told me he'd tried a number of different ones in this design, and that he preferred the Mullards over anything else. That was enough for me so I've just stashed up on some replacements and wasted spent my money rolling 6922's, 12BH7's, and everything else.



And you have saved a lot of money. lol


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> No the CV378 is a military designation for a tube with certain specifications. Both the Mullard GZ37, in your picture, and the Cossor 53KU meet that specification, and you will find both them labeled as CV378.



Interesting. I also have a pair labeled as GZ37 with the Mullard logo and BVA symbol. Internally they appear identical to the CV378. Am I assuming correctly that the CV designation is similar to US JAN designations where the non-military spec tubes could be identical?


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Interesting. I also have a pair labeled as GZ37 with the Mullard logo and BVA symbol. Internally they appear identical to the CV378. Am I assuming correctly that the CV designation is similar to US JAN designations where the non-military spec tubes could be identical?



Yes, there is no difference between a Mullard GZ37 and a Mullard CV378. And there is no difference between a Cossor 53KU and a Cossor CV378.


----------



## gibosi

gibosi said:


> If it is "fat" it's a Cossor. If it's "skinny", it's a Mullard.



This is the wrong place to be talking about rectifiers. But a picture will make this clear: The Cossor is fat and the Mullard is skinny.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> This is the wrong place to be talking about rectifiers. But a picture will make this clear: The Cossor is fat and the Mullard is skinny.



Ahhhh....I see now (said the clueless dude).


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 8, 2020)

You two are now in time-out for 30 minutes for rectifier talk.  Go to your rooms and no audio.  Don't make me come in there!!   


(OK folks.  I've gotten rid of @bcowen for 30 minutes.. (Sorry @gibosi you were collateral damage.))


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You two are now in time-out for 30 minutes for rectifier talk.  Go to your rooms and no audio.  Don't make me come in there!!
> 
> 
> (OK folks.  I've gotten rid of @bcowen for 30 minutes.. (Sorry @gibosi you were collateral damage.))


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> I'll chime in a few hours.... Rolling da Dutchie..
> 
> The million dollar question... Stay tuned...




So what's the answer to the million dollar question? Any similarity/difference between the graphite and metal plates?


----------



## Ripper2860

Please tell me @JKDJedi didn't pay a million dollars for either tube.


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 8, 2020)

So what's the answer to the million dollar question? Any similarity/difference between the graphite and metal plates?
[/QUOTE]
So far best pairing with this metal baby is the 7N7 and VT-99, nearly similar in the huge headroom/stage department. I'd say it's 80 to 90 percent of the graphite plated beauties. Might keep both as per @gibosi recommendation....and take the same three week break on the collection itch as @bcowen . #truelies 😁 @Ripper2860 paid $35 for each, think he has more of them..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> ....and take the same three week break on the collection itch as @bcowen . #truelies 😁



Good luck with that.  #ain'tgonnahappen


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Good luck with that.  #ain'tgonnahappen


the ones coming in next week don't count..


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> ....and take the same three week break on the collection itch as @bcowen . #truelies 😁



Not gonna believe it would happen, unless the bank account is drained


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 9, 2020)

Next up:  40's Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle / black base and Chatham 6080 (CBS labeled).


----------



## JKDJedi

There's a tube out there that I want but I'm on a three week time out....not sure I'm gonna make it..


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> There's a tube out there that I want but I'm on a three week time out....not sure I'm gonna make it..



Which holy grail tube could this be?!?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Which holy grail tube could this be?!?


Its not, I already have one..  just got an offer for a 6520, if you guys want it place an offer 30% less the posted asking price.... he'll most likely except. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303635453832
Please take it before I do!


----------



## cddc

Which idiot bought these dead 5998's? 

Can't believe someone spent $220+ on 3 almost dead 5998's....


https://www.ebay.com/itm/QTY-3-Matc...98-Dual-Triode-Tube-TV-7-Tested-/184397098202


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Its not, I already have one..  just got an offer for a 6520, if you guys want it place an offer 30% less the posted asking price.... he'll most likely except.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303635453832
> Please take it before I do!




No, you shouldn't go for that tube. You've got a 6520 already, besides it's a 5998 at best.

Try these Mullard 6AS7G, I saw them for the first time. But I guarantee you it's pure RCA flavor... 🤭🤭

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-6AS7G-PAIR-OF-NEW-OLD-STOCK-TUBES/164322388270



Don't buy these tubes, they are fake Mullard. They are RCA 6AS7G instead.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Its not, I already have one..  just got an offer for a 6520, if you guys want it place an offer 30% less the posted asking price.... he'll most likely except.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303635453832
> Please take it before I do!




Or you should try these? They are genuine GEC 6AS7G.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6as7g-...lifier-BROWN-BASE-6080-6AS7-5998/233674644603


If you buy these you will be on another 3 week remission I'm pretty sure.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> Or you should try these? They are genuine GEC 6AS7G.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6as7g-...lifier-BROWN-BASE-6080-6AS7-5998/233674644603
> 
> 
> If you buy these you will be on another 3 week remission I'm pretty sure.





cddc said:


> Which idiot bought these dead 5998's?
> 
> Can't believe someone spent $220+ on 3 almost dead 5998's....
> 
> ...





cddc said:


> Or you should try these? They are genuine GEC 6AS7G.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6as7g-...lifier-BROWN-BASE-6080-6AS7-5998/233674644603
> 
> 
> If you buy these you will be on another 3 week remission I'm pretty sure.


That would definitely do it 😜 I'm good, am I? Yeah I'm good... Clicks watch...just to you know..watch.. 😉


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> Its not, I already have one..  just got an offer for a 6520, if you guys want it place an offer 30% less the posted asking price.... he'll most likely except.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303635453832
> Please take it before I do!



How come the pictures show the tube with a Motorola box? I think the description says that it comes with the original box... was Motorola somehow associated with Tung Sol back then?


----------



## JKDJedi (Aug 11, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> How come the pictures show the tube with a Motorola box? I think the description says that it comes with the original box... was Motorola somehow associated with Tung Sol back then?


Tung-Sol most likely contracted out to Motorola...and whoever grabbed it ....thanks!!!


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> How come the pictures show the tube with a Motorola box? I think the description says that it comes with the original box... was Motorola somehow associated with Tung Sol back then?



Companies like Motorola and Philco manufactured radios, but they didn't make their own tubes. However, there was money to be made by selling replacement parts, such as tubes, to customers who purchased their radios. So these radio companies sourced tubes from various manufacturers for resale. And sometimes, they even put their own name on the tube. For example, I have a 6F8G manufactured by National Union, labeled as a Philco, with the added text, "When renewing insist on a genuine Philco tube." lol


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> Tung-Sol most likely contracted out to Motorola...and whoever grabbed it ....thanks!!!



Lol.  Why are you congratulating yourself?


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Lol.  Why are you congratulating yourself?


I went for it this morning and it's gone  should have grabbed it when I had the chance ..oh well .. week one and I'm already losing it..😝😆


----------



## JKDJedi

@denv


cddc said:


> Or you should try these? They are genuine GEC 6AS7G.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6as7g-...lifier-BROWN-BASE-6080-6AS7-5998/233674644603
> 
> 
> If you buy these you will be on another 3 week remission I'm pretty sure.





cddc said:


> Or you should try these? They are genuine GEC 6AS7G.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6as7g-...lifier-BROWN-BASE-6080-6AS7-5998/233674644603
> 
> 
> If you buy these you will be on another 3 week remission I'm pretty sure.


And that GEC is coming home to me... dammit... Didn't make the 3 weeks .. 😂


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> @denv
> 
> 
> And that GEC is coming home to me... dammit... Didn't make the 3 weeks .. 😂



You ended up spending 3x what you were going to spend on the Tung Sol. This didn't work out. 

Am I wrong that from the description it says that it's not NOS, just that it works perfectly, meaning it could be quite used?


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> @denv
> 
> 
> And that GEC is coming home to me... dammit... Didn't make the 3 weeks .. 😂




Your addiction is cureless, I noticed that long time ago...


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> You ended up spending 3x what you were going to spend on the Tung Sol. This didn't work out.
> 
> Am I wrong that from the description it says that it's not NOS, just that it works perfectly, meaning it could be quite used?


For $70...not bad, NOS is $150 and up... It's gone either way. So starting today! Three weeks!! #truelies 😁


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> For $70...not bad, NOS is $150 and up... It's gone either way. So starting today! Three weeks!! #truelies 😁



Wait, I am confused. The Tung Sol 6520 was NOS and $99. The GEC $299 and "in perfect working condition". Did you drive the GEC down from $299 to $70?


----------



## cddc

CaptainFantastic said:


> Wait, I am confused. The Tung Sol 6520 was NOS and $99. The GEC $299 and "in perfect working condition". Did you drive the GEC down from $299 to $70?




It is hard to say the TS 6520 is NOS. It is not tested, and it is marked as Tung Sol while packed in a Non-TS box.

If the tube was indeed manufactured for Moto, normally the tube should have been marked as Moto and packed in a Moto box.


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Wait, I am confused. The Tung Sol 6520 was NOS and $99. The GEC $299 and "in perfect working condition". Did you drive the GEC down from $299 to $70?


The TungSol minus the 30% offer is .. let me see here.... getting my calculator out....oh yes...$70! And the GEC.  Turns out it's from a member here who recognized me...and made me an offer I couldn't refuse. 😁


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> It is hard to say the TS 6520 is NOS. It is not tested, and it is marked as Tung Sol while packed in a Non-TS box.
> 
> If the tube was indeed manufactured for Moto, normally the tube should have been marked as Moto and packed in a Moto box.


He has another tube up that's marked Motorola but I wouldn't pay or bother with that tube, doesn't have the domino plates, that's why the first listing was a must grab.. someone scored...


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Anyone tried one of these Westinghouse 6as7g tubes?  It's kind of a funny shape...almost looks like a 6080.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-WE...950288?hash=item48d341cd50:g:VV8AAOSwpJJdjCMd


----------



## Ripper2860

That's a 6AS7G*A *-- look closely at the box.  Virtually every GA I've seen is a General Electric mfg tube and this has all the characteristics of a GE unit.  I'd pass.


----------



## Slade01

Ripper2860 said:


> That's a 6AS7G*A *-- look closely at the box.  Virtually every GA I've seen is a General Electric mfg tube and this has all the characteristics of a GE unit.  I'd pass.



It does have an actual Westinghouse EIA code though.  Maybe this was an exception?  Still I haven't heard of any decent sounding GA tubes either....


----------



## Ripper2860

Typically I've found GE (to a much higher degree) and RCA (to a smaller degree) 6AS7GA tubes.  The spiked top and bottom mica seems to be a characteristic of the GE versions of 6AS7GA.  Not saying these are 100% NOT Westinghouse, but they do share typical GE indicators.  I also saw the EIA code for WH, but I do not fully trust codes on bases as they were inconsistently used at times.  I cannot rule out that at times, in order to fulfill a contract, one MFG may have bought bare tubes from another and mounted them on their base or even supplied bases to the other mfg for production.  A lot of tube mfg shenanigans went on back then!!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

What does the 'a' indicate?  Plenty of my 6sn7 tubes are some a or b variant that I still like.  How does it apply to the 6as7g world?


----------



## fuzzroffe

Only difference is the shape of the glass, as far as I know...


----------



## Ripper2860

'A' was supposedly a bit more ruggedized.  I believe the smaller/more compact bottle (as opposed to 6AS7G) allowed for better support and vibration resistance.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Anyone tried one of these Westinghouse 6as7g tubes?  It's kind of a funny shape...almost looks like a 6080.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-WE...950288?hash=item48d341cd50:g:VV8AAOSwpJJdjCMd


I'd pass on those as well. Funky looking and most likely sound the same.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> That's a 6AS7G*A *-- look closely at the box.  Virtually every GA I've seen is a General Electric mfg tube and this has all the characteristics of a GE unit.  I'd pass.



I have several RCA GA's. Definitely not made by GE, or my Incubus would have thrown up (oh, and no etched dots either). And honestly, I like them. Not my favorite by any means, but they were cheap and don't do anything dreadful. Kind of the Toyota Camry of the tube world.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I have several RCA GA's. Definitely not made by GE, or my Incubus would have thrown up (oh, and no etched dots either).



Hence the careful and deliberate use of the word VIRTUALLY.


----------



## bcowen

Speaking of RCA's (oh wait, that was me...nevermind), but this looks like an RCA to me.  I don't have a non-graphite Chatham 6080 to compare...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164334787969?ul_noapp=true


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I have several RCA GA's. Definitely not made by GE, or my Incubus would have thrown up (oh, and no etched dots either). And honestly, I like them. Not my favorite by any means, but they were cheap and don't do anything dreadful. Kind of the Toyota Camry of the tube world.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hence the careful and deliberate use of the word VIRTUALLY.



Hence-back the careful and deliberate use of the words "I have several RCA GA's. Definitely not made by GE...".  Un-virtually.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>



LOL!  I was thinking more along the lines of a Camry made in _this_ century.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Speaking of RCA's (oh wait, that was me...nevermind), but this looks like an RCA to me.  I don't have a non-graphite Chatham 6080 to compare...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164334787969?ul_noapp=true


That's not a Chatham that I'm accustomed too ..


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Speaking of RCA's (oh wait, that was me...nevermind), but this looks like an RCA to me.  I don't have a non-graphite Chatham 6080 to compare...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164334787969?ul_noapp=true



Well, it's not a Tung-Sol / Chatham, that's for sure.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Hence-back the careful and deliberate use of the words "I have several RCA GA's. Definitely not made by GE...".  Un-virtually.



Quit being so darn obtuse.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Didn't Westinghouse get bought by GE?


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Didn't Westinghouse get bought by GE?



No, GE bought Ken-Rad (Kentucky Radio). As far as I know, Westinghouse and GE have always been competitors, never one and the same.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Didn't Westinghouse get bought by GE?



This is interesting...  1919 – Creates RCA with GE, AT&T and United Fruit, buys the American division of Marconi - 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Electric_Corporation


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> No, GE bought Ken-Rad (Kentucky Radio). As far as I know, Westinghouse and GE have always been competitors, never one and the same.


Here's a Chatham 'a' variant.  I don't like it that much...it's a bit muddy.
I have no idea if it has graphite plates...but it looks like graphite.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> This is interesting...  1919 – Creates RCA with GE, AT&T and United Fruit, buys the American division of Marconi -
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Electric_Corporation



Funny...United Fruit.  Who in their right mind would name a company United Fruit?     

And from that same Wiki page:

_"1945 – renames itself the Westinghouse Electric Corporation, and makes first automatic elevator."_

1945 was the same year GE acquired Ken-Rad.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Here's a Chatham 'a' variant.  I don't like it that much...it's a bit muddy.
> I have no idea if it has graphite plates...but it looks like graphite.



Those aren't the graphite plates, but that is still a well-regarded tube just the same.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Here's a Chatham 'a' variant.  I don't like it that much...it's a bit muddy.
> I have no idea if it has graphite plates...but it looks like graphite.


It's metal plates, don't get rid of it, @Ripper2860 talked me out of getting rid of mine, sounds STUPENDOUS on the Incubus.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Funny...United Fruit.  Who in their right mind would name a company United Fruit?
> 
> And from that same Wiki page:
> 
> ...


LM F A O...I was gonna say... it's WIKI LEaks..


----------



## Slade01

PsilocybinCube said:


> Here's a Chatham 'a' variant.  I don't like it that much...it's a bit muddy.
> I have no idea if it has graphite plates...but it looks like graphite.



You gotta pair it with the right tube.  Although I hate all 6080 WB and C variants.  I think all of those sound muddy.


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Here's a Chatham 'a' variant.  I don't like it that much...it's a bit muddy.
> I have no idea if it has graphite plates...but it looks like graphite.




This is definitely not a graphite plate tube. Graphite plates are much thicker. 

This is just a run-of-the-mill Chatham 6080 tube with metal plates.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Slade01 said:


> You gotta pair it with the right tube.  Although I hate all 6080 WB and C variants.  I think all of those sound muddy.


Yep.  Jedi recommended a tall Tung Sol 6sn7 (which I had) and that was good.  I just didn't like it as much as my Winged C with my Bad Boy tube.


----------



## Slade01

PsilocybinCube said:


> Yep.  Jedi recommended a tall Tung Sol 6sn7 (which I had) and that was good.  I just didn't like it as much as my Winged C with my Bad Boy tube.



Right on.  The Winged C is so underrated.  That tube always does wonders for soundstage/imaging for me.  Another favorite of mine.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Speaking of RCA's (oh wait, that was me...nevermind), but this looks like an RCA to me.  I don't have a non-graphite Chatham 6080 to compare...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164334787969?ul_noapp=true




I guarantee you this one is 100% pure RCA flavor 🤭🤭🤭


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> @denv
> 
> 
> And that GEC is coming home to me... dammit... Didn't make the 3 weeks .. 😂


Don't purchase that tube.

It looks like the fake MWT I purchased some years ago.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Well, it's not a Tung-Sol / Chatham, that's for sure.


@gibosi .... Are all your tubes in glass cases...your one bad DUDE!! 🙇‍♂️


----------



## Slade01

cddc said:


> I guarantee you this one is 100% pure RCA flavor 🤭🤭🤭



That spikey mica on the bottom...definitely looks RCA.  God why wouldnt they just use a matching round one.  Were RCA hard up for metal in those days?  LOL


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Don't purchase that tube.
> 
> It looks like the fake MWT I purchased some years ago.


Thanks @attmci I have a 30 day money back with it and it's from a member here probably following this thread. And I will look into that, thanks for the heads up.


----------



## cddc

Slade01 said:


> Right on.  The Winged C is so underrated.  That tube always does wonders for soundstage/imaging for me.  Another favorite of mine.




While Winged C is nothing close to t


attmci said:


> Don't purchase that tube.
> 
> It looks like the fake MWT I purchased some years ago.




So you bought these ones?


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Thanks @attmci I have a 30 day money back with it and it's from a member here probably following this thread. And I will look into that, thanks for the heads up.


Bill


cddc said:


> While Winged C is nothing close to t
> 
> 
> 
> So you bought these ones?


I did.


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> I did.




These are all premium tubes....


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Bill
> 
> I did.


And I just showed my noob colors on that one....😆 I had no idea MWT and Osram were related or built in the same factory as GEC. Nice grab👍


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Yep.  Jedi recommended a tall Tung Sol 6sn7 (which I had) and that was good.  I just didn't like it as much as my Winged C with my Bad Boy tube.



I guess you meant you prefer your Winged C to your Tung Sol 6080 (and 6sn7 is a typo here)?


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> @gibosi .... Are all your tubes in glass cases...your one bad DUDE!! 🙇‍♂️



No I don't have any tubes in glass cases lol. Gosh, I have over 1000 tubes and all of them are in individual tube boxes and stored in bureau drawers and wooden bookcases around the house. And when I want to photograph them, I use a simple photography light box.


----------



## JKDJedi

@DecentLevi  wrote a very nice write up in 2016 that didn't get as much love as it deserved..so I'm sharing it here, I had no idea MWT was a thing.. 


*CASE STUDY*
GEC 6AS7G (brown *curved* base, NOS) vs. unbranded / GEC or "MWT" labeled 6AS7G (brown *straight* base)

* All of these 6AS7G's are in fact A1834, including the ones with the genuine GEC label


















_(actual photos taken by me today)_


*GEC 6AS7G pair (curved base, not burned in):*
Vivid, organic, perfect tonality, huge soundstage, hard hitting with _*exquisite *_layering / imaging ability. Occasional trace hint of 'grainyness' / harshness.
*branded + MWT labeled 6AS7G pair (straight base, burned in)*
_*Extremely *_vivid, organic, perfect tonality, huge soundstage, hard hitting with _*phenomenal *_layering / imaging ability. And now with increased 'energy' and a velvety lushness. Dynamics are equal. Overall sound at least 20% more organic / lifelike, and seems slightly smoother vs. a _borderling _solid-state like sound of the NOS GECs. Subtle amount of added lushness / vividness and the _smallest of smallest_ addition of a 'laid back' signature seems to loose an _extremely nuance_ amount of instrument separation compared with the above.
 
These both have absolutely 100% internal construction, the only physical difference being the shape of the base. In all likelyhood, the 'white label' ones were in fact rebrands manufactured in the same factory. However those white label (straight base) ones are my _current _favorite, I'm unable to _conclude _on a "favorite". Being the 'white label' version appears to be burned in, the difference may have nothing at all to do with base shapes, but rather burn-in amount. 

Conclusion: If you're ever lucky enough to chance upon a 'white label' or MWT labeled 6AS7G or A1834, run towards it like a marathon, because these are indeed the real thing, and in my case, very truly and literally sounding even somewhat better than the real thing.

(both actually being the 'real thing', just in different states of burn-in and base shapes)


----------



## PsilocybinCube

cddc said:


> I guess you meant you prefer your Winged C to your Tung Sol 6080 (and 6sn7 is a typo here)?


Sorry, I meant I prefer my 'Winged C 6as7g and Sylvania bad boy 6sn7' combo to the 'Chatham 6080 and tall Tung Sol 6sn7' combo.

Typing on the phone while watching The Office and snuggling my wifey doesn't make for great grammar or good sentences.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sorry, I meant I prefer my 'Winged C 6as7g and Sylvania bad boy 6sn7' combo to the 'Chatham 6080 and tall Tung Sol 6sn7' combo.
> 
> Typing on the phone while watching The Office and snuggling my wifey doesn't make for great grammar or good sentences.


I understood ya, all good. 🙂


----------



## DecentLevi (Aug 13, 2020)

Yes well I think the thing with my comparison between two pairs of GEC 6AS7G was that both straight and curved base - GEC and MWT alike (which is probably just a different sticker but could have been made in the same factory) - are basically identical and should perform the same, but it's just that my GEC straight base tubes weren't burned in yet, making the curved base MWT version sound better to me. I've since sold both pairs, because myself as well as about 10 / 10 people I had know on these forums who've owned these lavish and extravagantly overpriced type of tubes have moved on to bigger & better tubes. We all found these to be superior in most ways: Tungsram EL12, EL39 (with thick silver stripe on glass), KT66, KT88 and possibly even KT150. These are all much more affordable (considering if buying recently made reissue brands); the first two run much cooler also; the KTxx series tubes are indeed at least as hot if not hotter, and in general most of these sounded to have a better handle on PRaT / rhythmic elements as well as dynamics and possibly soundstage.

YMMV of course because this was based on usage with our Elise and Euforia amps from Feliks Audio, but others have found similarly good results with these other tube types on Glenn tube amps as well. Do note however that none of those are interchangeable with the 6AS7 socket, so a proper adapter for your amp would be needed. For the KT tubes, these were also made originally by GEC and their exquisite 'house sound' seems to have carried over to these too, and there are also much more affordable and currently/recently produced versions of these from the likes of Genalex Gold Lion which are said to be very comparable to the GECs.


----------



## DecentLevi

PS - even with an adapter the bespoke tubes may not be compatible on your amp; they may have worked only with the Feliks Audio amps because of its' specific wiring, so best to check the compatibily of those with your amp before having an adapter made.


----------



## JKDJedi

DecentLevi said:


> PS - even with an adapter the bespoke tubes may not be compatible on your amp; they may have worked only with the Feliks Audio amps because of its' specific wiring, so best to check the compatibily of those with your amp before having an adapter made.


Thanks for chiming in and sharing your thoughts, most of us here (or maybe just me) use our amps (and 6AS7g specific tubes) for headphone use. The Genelax Gold Lion might be overkill, well for my amps anyway. I'd be surprised if it could work on one of my amps via an adapter.


----------



## DecentLevi

I've always been a headphone-only guy so far (full size like HD-600 and electrostat systems as well), and all of my impressions are from headphones.


----------



## Dogmatrix

The cheapest way I know to get the GEC sound in your 6as7 slot is a pair of A2293/CV4079 tubes and an adapter all up around $70 US


----------



## JKDJedi

Dogmatrix said:


> The cheapest way I know to get the GEC sound in your 6as7 slot is a pair of A2293/CV4079 tubes and an adapter all up around $70 US


I had that set up and couldn't figure out why it didn't have any punch in my amp.. I think I had it in the driver slot instead of the power... Kinda wish I tried that out before selling them off 😒


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> These are all premium tubes....


Those are my bad premium tubes. Only one channel of that GEC 6as7g works.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Those are my bad premium tubes. Only one channel of that GEC 6as7g works.


What!? ☹️😣😩 I hate when that happens!


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> Those are my bad premium tubes. Only one channel of that GEC 6as7g works.



You just need to modify your headphones so that the good channel goes to both ears. No problem! lol


----------



## SHIMACM

Dogmatrix said:


> The cheapest way I know to get the GEC sound in your 6as7 slot is a pair of A2293/CV4079 tubes and an adapter all up around $70 US



Is the sound on the same level as the GEC 6as7g?


----------



## gibosi (Aug 14, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Is the sound on the same level as the GEC 6as7g?



I don't have these so I can't say for sure.. However, I doubt that they sound identical. But generally speaking, GEC tubes manufactured in their Hammersmith factory sound very similar. That is, the GEC 6AS7 sounds very similar to the GEC 6080, the GEC U52 and the GEC B65. So I think you can count on them sounding very similar, but maybe not identical.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> You just need to modify your headphones so that the good channel goes to both ears. No problem! lol


LOL

Do you want the tube for 1/4 of the price?


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> LOL
> 
> Do you want the tube for 1/4 of the price?


😂😂😂


----------



## attmci (Aug 14, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> What!? ☹😣😩 I hate when that happens!


There is a metal base GZ34 in the same bin. It's a early welded plate tube. Too bad.

And three 5998!


----------



## Dogmatrix

SHIMACM said:


> Is the sound on the same level as the GEC 6as7g?


They have the same character but not quite 6as7g level , I think they beat the 6080 version though .


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I had that set up and couldn't figure out why it didn't have any punch in my amp.. I think I had it in the driver slot instead of the power... Kinda wish I tried that out before selling them off 😒



I'm bettin' the pins weren't making good contact with the socket.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> You just need to modify your headphones so that the good channel goes to both ears. No problem! lol




Good idea. Also, I think @attmci can order some dual 6SN7 to single 6SN7 adapter (which works for 6080/5998/6AS7G tubes as well - I think the pinouts should be the same for all of them) so that he can harness the working half. 

Seriously, it's a crime to let these premium tubes lying in a waste box there


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> There is a metal base GZ34 in the same bin. It's a early welded plate tube. Too bad.
> 
> And three 5998!



_All_ those have one dead triode?  Wow.  In all my years of tube rolling I've run across a lot of bad tubes, but very few (maybe 3 or 4) with one good testing triode and one that was totally dead. Most "bad" ones are due to shorts, high interelement leakage, or just low GM readings on one or both triodes.  Have you tried resoldering the pins on any of those?  Just curious...


----------



## JKDJedi

So them (metal plate) Bendix 6080WB just went up in price... 😂
https://www.ebay.com/itm/184402692158


----------



## bcowen (Aug 15, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> So them (metal plate) Bendix 6080WB just went up in price... 😂
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/184402692158



ROFL!  BangyBang must be short on cash.  Perhaps his silkscreening setup broke so he's unable to relabel tubes for his other site.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  BangyBang must be short on cash.  Perhaps his silkscreening setup broke so he's unable to relabel tubes for his other site.



You can make offers on them.  Maybe I will put in an offer for 15 bucks...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> You can make offers on them.  Maybe I will put in an offer for 15 bucks...


We should all do it...😂


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> You can make offers on them.  Maybe I will put in an offer for 15 bucks...



ROFL!  You should.  Really.  It can be entertaining.     

A while back I put in a $5 offer on some tube he had listed for like $500 (on the BangyBang site), and the response I got was full of four letter words describing how stupid and clueless I was. Class act, to be sure.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  You should.  Really.  It can be entertaining.
> 
> A while back I put in a $5 offer on some tube he had listed for like $500 (on the BangyBang site), and the response I got was full of four letter words describing how stupid and clueless I was. Class act, to be sure.


😂😂😂 That should've been copied and pasted here 😂😂 ♥️


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> 😂😂😂 That should've been copied and pasted here 😂😂 ♥



Wish I'd saved it.    

But while you guys were sleeping, look what happened:


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Wish I'd saved it.
> 
> But while you guys were sleeping, look what happened:


No way......DUDE!! 

You SCORED!!


----------



## bcowen (Aug 15, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> No way......DUDE!!
> 
> You SCORED!!



Yeah, I couldn't believe he accepted. It was on auction at around $65 with 5 days to go, but had the offer option.  I thought why not try.   

Just hope it tests well, but he does take returns if it doesn't.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nice score, Bill!!   Maybe you'll actually get around to listening to this one.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I couldn't believe he accepted. It was on auction at around $65 with 5 days to go, but had the offer option.  I thought why not try.
> 
> Just hope it tests well, but he does take returns if it doesn't.



Awesome deal.  Can never hurt to try thats for sure!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Wish I'd saved it.
> 
> But while you guys were sleeping, look what happened:


Haven't rolled this baby in awhile.. is it to early for a shot of whiskey?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Haven't rolled this baby in awhile.. is it to early for a shot of whiskey?



You should probably send it to me first for testing.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> You should probably send it to me first for testing.


Are you asking him to send you the 421A or the whiskey?


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Are you asking him to send you the 421A or the whiskey?



Yes.


----------



## JKDJedi

Photos make this tube look larger than what it actually is..lol. Check out the pic with it next to a C Wing. Anyways, initial thoughts are a romantic sounding tube. Love the glow.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Photos make this tube look larger than what it actually is..lol. Check out the pic with it next to a C Wing. Anyways, initial thoughts are a romantic sounding tube. Love the glow.



You should probably send me that one for testing too.  From your initial reaction it sounds more like a wine tube than a whiskey tube, but I'm good with wine.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You should probably send me that one for testing too.  From your initial reaction it sounds more like a wine tube than a whiskey tube, but I'm good with wine.


I was teasing about it but I am getting kinda thirsty.. grabbing a couple of 40's


----------



## attmci (Aug 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> _All_ those have one dead triode?  Wow.  In all my years of tube rolling I've run across a lot of bad tubes, but very few (maybe 3 or 4) with one good testing triode and one that was totally dead. Most "bad" ones are due to shorts, high interelement leakage, or just low GM readings on one or both triodes.  Have you tried resoldering the pins on any of those?  Just curious...


These tubes were collected in the past and have various problems. I had tested all of these tubes.


----------



## SHIMACM

JKDJedi said:


> Photos make this tube look larger than what it actually is..lol. Check out the pic with it next to a C Wing. Anyways, initial thoughts are a romantic sounding tube. Love the glow.



Pressings, please !! Especially in relation to Tung-Sol 5998 on Darkvoice. I will wait patiently. LOL.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Pressings, please !! Especially in relation to Tung-Sol 5998 on Darkvoice. I will wait patiently. LOL.


I'll see you there..


----------



## LoryWiv

Dogmatrix said:


> The cheapest way I know to get the GEC sound in your 6as7 slot is a pair of A2293/CV4079 tubes and an adapter all up around $70 US



Good tip, adapters can open up a world of possibilities if they don't fry your amp! 



JKDJedi said:


> I had that set up and couldn't figure out why it didn't have any punch in my amp.. I think I had it in the driver slot instead of the power... Kinda wish I tried that out before selling them off 😒



Indeed, I have GEC 6VG in the drive position of my Feliks Elise, and even there they are something special!


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 20, 2020)

Hey guys! I recently finished a BH Crack and have been playing with tubes. I paid my due diligence and tried a couple 6080s before moving on to 6AS7G. Oh I have a Sylvania GB6080 on the way that I found cheap, hopefully it’s good! Let me tell you it’s becoming a slippery slope! Chatham 6080 seems like a good fall back tube, and I think Chatham 6AS7G is going to be my primary. Hopefully I’ll stop before I get to a 5998 or 421A! I feel like the Chatham 6080 let things open up a bit - more of a 3D effect without losing imaging or anything. Decent bass, not to thin, treble and decay sound good. I feel like the Chatham 6AS7G takes that just slightly further and sounds a little more ‘unrestricted,’ a little smoother - very small differences but enough to make it worth it to me. Listening to live recordings I hear more of the room, crowd, and subtle instrument nuances that make it really feel like I’m sitting in the front row.

So I like the Chatham 6AS7G. I tried a GE 6AS7G that looks an awful lot like a Chatham, and the sound is close but not quite there. It doesn’t have the copper/brass spring, and I noticed it also has these tiny little extra squares on the bottom - not the RCA ‘flaps’. Then I came across this CBS tube on eBay that looks even more like a Black Plate Chatham / TS 6AS7G. For $30 shipped I had to give it a shot and find out! But just in case it isn’t the real thing, bought another very nice measuring Chatham.

Here’s my collection, and some pics of what I just ordered.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Here’s the CBS. Does anyone know anything about this tube? Do you agree it appears to be a Chatham / Tung Sol?


----------



## cddc

Joe Garfield said:


> Here’s the CBS. Does anyone know anything about this tube? Do you agree it appears to be a Chatham / Tung Sol?



This CBS 6AS7G is for sure a rebranded Tung Sol 6AS7G tube. Nice find!


----------



## cddc

Joe Garfield said:


> Hey guys! I recently finished a BH Crack and have been playing with tubes. I paid my due diligence and tried a couple 6080s before moving on to 6AS7G. Oh I have a Sylvania GB6080 on the way that I found cheap, hopefully it’s good! Let me tell you it’s becoming a slippery slope! Chatham 6080 seems like a good fall back tube, and I think Chatham 6AS7G is going to be my primary. Hopefully I’ll stop before I get to a 5998 or 421A! I feel like the Chatham 6080 let things open up a bit - more of a 3D effect without losing imaging or anything. Decent bass, not to thin, treble and decay sound good. I feel like the Chatham 6AS7G takes that just slightly further and sounds a little more ‘unrestricted,’ a little smoother - very small differences but enough to make it worth it to me. Listening to live recordings I hear more of the room, crowd, and subtle instrument nuances that make it really feel like I’m sitting in the front row.
> 
> So I like the Chatham 6AS7G. I tried a GE 6AS7G that looks an awful lot like a Chatham, and the sound is close but not quite there. It doesn’t have the copper/brass spring, and I noticed it also has these tiny little extra squares on the bottom - not the RCA ‘flaps’. Then I came across this CBS tube on eBay that looks even more like a Black Plate Chatham / TS 6AS7G. For $30 shipped I had to give it a shot and find out! But just in case it isn’t the real thing, bought another very nice measuring Chatham.
> 
> Here’s my collection, and some pics of what I just ordered.




You seem to be a big fan of Tung Sol 6AS7G...LOL

Try a 5998 or 421A and you will forget about any Tung Sol/Chatham 6AS7G or 6080


----------



## cddc

Joe Garfield said:


> So I like the Chatham 6AS7G. I tried a GE 6AS7G that looks an awful lot like a Chatham, and the sound is close but not quite there. It doesn’t have the copper/brass spring, and I noticed it also has these tiny little extra squares on the bottom - not the RCA ‘flaps’.




I once suspected GE produced its own 6AS7G, as GE 6AS7G looks quite different than the Tung Sol/Chatham 6AS7G I normally see, but some folks here did not agree. 

Now you hear a difference, this is making things more interesting...


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 20, 2020)

I’ve noticed most GE 6AS7Gs have the ”RCA Wings” below the bottom mica. So I think most are re-branded RCAs like a lot of other brands are. But I saw one that didn’t have the wings so I bought it. It looks identical in construction to the Chatham I have, except for 1) silver instead of brass colored spring, and 2) extra tiny little black plates under the bottom mica that don’t exist on the Chatham. I think the sound is similar but not Identical.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 20, 2020)

cddc said:


> You seem to be a big fan of Tung Sol 6AS7G...LOL
> 
> Try a 5998 or 421A and you will forget about any Tung Sol/Chatham 6AS7G or 6080



I was really hoping you were going to say it’s not ‘that’ big of a difference. .  Lol.

I do like the Chatham. It sounds very well balanced and can handle everything from bluegrass to rock to electronic to classical just as well. And they’ve been under $30 for the most part. But yeah I probably should have just started with the 5998 / 421A and been done with it, haha.


----------



## JKDJedi

Joe Garfield said:


> I was really hoping you were going to say it’s not ‘that’ big of a difference. .  Lol.
> 
> I do like the Chatham. It sounds very well balanced and can handle everything from bluegrass to rock to electronic to classical just as well. And they’ve been under $30 for the most part. But yeah I probably should have just started with the 5998 / 421A and been done with it, haha.


Good buy if you got it for $30, nice tube to have. Congrats.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Joe Garfield said:


> I was really hoping you were going to say it’s not ‘that’ big of a difference. .  Lol.
> 
> I do like the Chatham. It sounds very well balanced and can handle everything from bluegrass to rock to electronic to classical just as well. And they’ve been under $30 for the most part. But yeah I probably should have just started with the 5998 / 421A and been done with it, haha.


If you want a great & inexpensive 6as7g, get the Svetlana Winged C.  It's dirt cheap and sounds great.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

I purchased a tube from the Czech Republic back in March, it was a NOS Mullard 6080 (that sounds quite nice, btw) and the packaging was superior to anything I've ever received.  Thought I'd share it here.  The ebay seller's name is Cpt.luke.  

He indicated every area to cut and where to open everything.  I would have been fine without that...but I appreciated the attention to detail.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

PsilocybinCube said:


> I purchased a tube from the Czech Republic back in March, it was a NOS Mullard 6080 (that sounds quite nice, btw) and the packaging was superior to anything I've ever received.  Thought I'd share it here.  The ebay seller's name is Cpt.luke.
> 
> He indicated every area to cut and where to open everything.  I would have been fine without that...but I appreciated the attention to detail.



Should have mentioned...I bought it in March, but it just showed up.  That's one reason why I was so thankful for good packaging!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 20, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> I purchased a tube from the Czech Republic back in March, it was a NOS Mullard 6080 (that sounds quite nice, btw) and the packaging was superior to anything I've ever received.  Thought I'd share it here.  The ebay seller's name is Cpt.luke.
> 
> He indicated every area to cut and where to open everything.  I would have been fine without that...but I appreciated the attention to detail.



Did he include a link to a box opening video tutorial.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Did he include a link to a box opening video tutorial.



😂🤣😂🤣😂


----------



## GDuss

Hi 6AS7G/6080 tube experts  . I got these tubes in yesterday and I think they are Mullard but these are the only markings on the tubes.  I'm far from a tube historian.  Any thoughts on their origins?


----------



## JKDJedi

GDuss said:


> Hi 6AS7G/6080 tube experts  . I got these tubes in yesterday and I think they are Mullard but these are the only markings on the tubes.  I'm far from a tube historian.  Any thoughts on their origins?


Look like Mullards to me.


----------



## GDuss

JKDJedi said:


> Look like Mullards to me.



Thanks.  I haven't listened to them yet.  I've been curious about Mullard 6080's for a while.  My prior experience with 6080's is limited to Sylvania WC's from the mid-60's and RCA black plates from 1956.  I have others in the 6AS7G and 5998 family, but this is all I have tried in 6080.


----------



## cddc

Joe Garfield said:


> I was really hoping you were going to say it’s not ‘that’ big of a difference. .  Lol.
> 
> I do like the Chatham. It sounds very well balanced and can handle everything from bluegrass to rock to electronic to classical just as well. And they’ve been under $30 for the most part. But yeah I probably should have just started with the 5998 / 421A and been done with it, haha.




You are right, if you start with 5998 / 421A and be done with it, you definitely save a lot in the long run...

On the other hand, if you haven't heard Tung Sol 6AS7G / 6080, how can you know how much the improvement to 5998 / 421A will be... I am not saying Tung Sol 6AS7G / 6080 are crappy tubes, they are decent tubes, but 5998 / 421A are just a significant level up.


----------



## cddc

GDuss said:


> Hi 6AS7G/6080 tube experts  . I got these tubes in yesterday and I think they are Mullard but these are the only markings on the tubes.  I'm far from a tube historian.  Any thoughts on their origins?



They are legit Mullard 6080 tubes. Nice find.

They were both manufactured in the Mullard Mitcham plant, one made in 14th week of 1973 and one made in 14th week of 1970.


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Should have mentioned...I bought it in March, but it just showed up.  That's one reason why I was so thankful for good packaging!




Are you serious....the box took 5 months to show up....


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 21, 2020)

cddc said:


> I am not saying Tung Sol 6AS7G / 6080 are crappy tubes, they are decent tubes, but 5998 / 421A are just a significant level up.


Well that’s good cuz I just bought one! 
Good timing too, my second order of Crack shipped today.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Joe Garfield said:


> Well that’s good cuz I just bought one! :^o



I just bought two and after an initial, short listening session nothing stood out as inferior to the experience I have with any of the 5 5998s or 1 421A I own. Of course, due to the warm-up, cool-down aspects of tube amp testing, I haven't really done any true critical comparison. 

@cddc In your experience, what main differences should one listen for when comparing the TS 6AS7G to the TS 5998?


----------



## GDuss

cddc said:


> They are legit Mullard 6080 tubes. Nice find.
> 
> They were both manufactured in the Mullard Mitcham plant, one made in 14th week of 1973 and one made in 14th week of 1970.



Thanks.  I'm generally trying to stick with tubes that were born before me  .  I'm sure that's not a completely fair strategy, but it's worked so far.  These tubes just managed to beat me in age (the '73 one is close).


----------



## SHIMACM

cddc said:


> You are right, if you start with 5998 / 421A and be done with it, you definitely save a lot in the long run...
> 
> On the other hand, if you haven't heard Tung Sol 6AS7G / 6080, how can you know how much the improvement to 5998 / 421A will be... I am not saying Tung Sol 6AS7G / 6080 are crappy tubes, they are decent tubes, but 5998 / 421A are just a significant level up.



There is the question of synergy between the tubes. Paired with the RCA 6sn7gt vt231 cinca glass, I found the TS 6as7g more musical than the TS 5998. Overall the TS 5998 may be a better tube, but the TS 6as7g is still an excellent tube.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

cddc said:


> They are legit Mullard 6080 tubes. Nice find.
> 
> They were both manufactured in the Mullard Mitcham plant, one made in 14th week of 1973 and one made in 14th week of 1970.


FWIW - here's a pic of my Mullard 6080.


----------



## gibosi

SHIMACM said:


> There is the question of synergy between the tubes. Paired with the RCA 6sn7gt vt231 cinca glass, I found the TS 6as7g more musical than the TS 5998. Overall the TS 5998 may be a better tube, but the TS 6as7g is still an excellent tube.



Yes indeed! Synergy is far more important than many realize.


----------



## cddc

CaptainFantastic said:


> I just bought two and after an initial, short listening session nothing stood out as inferior to the experience I have with any of the 5 5998s or 1 421A I own. Of course, due to the warm-up, cool-down aspects of tube amp testing, I haven't really done any true critical comparison.
> 
> @cddc In your experience, what main differences should one listen for when comparing the TS 6AS7G to the TS 5998?



I find TS 6AS7G is thin in the bass department, compared to TS 5998. Also, TS 5998 is more dynamic and airy than TS 6AS7G.


----------



## cddc (Aug 21, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> There is the question of synergy between the tubes. Paired with the RCA 6sn7gt vt231 cinca glass, I found the TS 6as7g more musical than the TS 5998. Overall the TS 5998 may be a better tube, but the TS 6as7g is still an excellent tube.




Yes, synergy is important. You can fine tune TS 6AS7G a little bit using different driver tubes. RCA VT231 grey glass will for sure help to improve the weak bass performance on TS 6AS7G, but the side effect is that it will also blur the whole presentation.

5998 is unarguably the better tube. The ongoing market price proves this. Trust the ears of most people and the invisible hands by Adam Smith...lol


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> FWIW - here's a pic of my Mullard 6080.




This is a very good looking genuine Mullard 6080, I like its glow...


----------



## Joe Garfield

cddc said:


> I find TS 6AS7G is thin in the bass department, compared to TS 5998. Also, TS 5998 is more dynamic and airy than TS 6AS7G.



I started to notice this last night. I switched from TS 6AS7G to TS 6080 and the 6080 had deeper, punchier bass although seemingly less resolving. Any suggestions on a good 12AU7 type tube to pair with the 6AS7G?


----------



## cddc

Joe Garfield said:


> I started to notice this last night. I switched from TS 6AS7G to TS 6080 and the 6080 had deeper, punchier bass although seemingly less resolving. Any suggestions on a good 12AU7 type tube to pair with the 6AS7G?



I find Telefunken 12AU7 thin on bass, so definitely not good candidate for TS 6AS7G. You can possibly try Amperex 12AU7, I find its bass tight and punchy, also very musical.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Did he include a link to a box opening video tutorial.




Man, all that work and the box is empty.  If I were him I'd be pissed.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> FWIW - here's a pic of my Mullard 6080.


LOVE THAT GLOW!! <3


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Man, all that work and the box is empty.  If I were him I'd be pissed.



Nah.  It shipped from Amazon and contained a single AAA battery surrounded by little air pillows.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> I started to notice this last night. I switched from TS 6AS7G to TS 6080 and the 6080 had deeper, punchier bass although seemingly less resolving. Any suggestions on a good 12AU7 type tube to pair with the 6AS7G?



Amperex Holland 7316 tall plate (7316 is a direct 12AU7 sub).
RCA clear top (side getter) with black plates are surprisingly good for surprisingly cheap:







For something really energetic (but can be a bit too energetic in the treble depending on the amp and what it's mated with), the CIFTE 5 star (Mazda) 12AU7WAH:


----------



## GDuss

PsilocybinCube said:


> FWIW - here's a pic of my Mullard 6080.



Those look more like Mullards to my extremely untrained eye  . The ones I got are undercover Mullards.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Amperex Holland 7316 tall plate (7316 is a direct 12AU7 sub).
> RCA clear top (side getter) with black plates are surprisingly good for surprisingly cheap:
> For something really energetic (but can be a bit too energetic in the treble depending on the amp and what it's mated with), the CIFTE 5 star (Mazda) 12AU7WAH:




Amperex 7316 tall plate is indeed very good, but quite expensive though


----------



## Joe Garfield

I've got a Dutch-made, long plate Valvo on the way. Maybe close enough to Amperex? I've got a grey plate Clear Top, which does have punchier bass but is a bit bright - in my system, for my tastes.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> I've got a Dutch-made, long plate Valvo on the way. Maybe close enough to Amperex? I've got a grey plate Clear Top, which does have punchier bass but is a bit bright - in my system, for my tastes.



Be interested to hear what you think of that when you get it.  The Amperex has a foil getter, so not sure how close they'll be. I have quite a few of the Amperex 7316's with the short plates, but the long plate/foil getter is noticeably better.


----------



## cddc

Joe Garfield said:


> I've got a Dutch-made, long plate Valvo on the way. Maybe close enough to Amperex? I've got a grey plate Clear Top, which does have punchier bass but is a bit bright - in my system, for my tastes.




If it is a Dutch-made, it's very likely an Amperex already.

If it is a Valvo, it should be made in West Germany.


----------



## attmci

Joe Garfield said:


> I started to notice this last night. I switched from TS 6AS7G to TS 6080 and the 6080 had deeper, punchier bass although seemingly less resolving. Any suggestions on a good 12AU7 type tube to pair with the 6AS7G?


Lorenz welded plate  12AU7 is the best driver tube for your Crack.


----------



## Joe Garfield

The Valvo I got could be made in Germany (that's what seller said, but there's no date code) but based on my research I think it's more likely Heerlen. Philips owned Amperex and Valvo. Here's some info about Valvo 12AU7 Heerlen vs Germany: http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/Valvo ECC82/ECC82.htm


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 22, 2020)

cddc said:


> If it is a Dutch-made, it's very likely an Amperex already.
> 
> If it is a Valvo, it should be made in West Germany.



After a little more research it appears the Valvo is from 1950s Hamburg and apparently somewhat rare. I actually wanted the German tube but figured it was a mistake, esp. at the price I paid. It has an angled ring getter with no cross bar and long plates, which are characteristic of the German Valvo plant.

This is a 6AS7G thread. I was looking for a tube that would keep the clarity and space of the TS/Chatham 6080 and 6AS7G tubes I bought, but hopefully add just a touch of mids - something to make violins or vocals just a little sweeter without losing any detail or resolution. I have an Amperex Orange Globe 6922 in my Vali 2. It makes violins and vocals sound amazing but there’s just a tiny bit of detail that’s missing, so I thought the German Valvo might be a little better. I read it was a blend between the German clarity and the Dutch musicality. The Chatham/TS tubes, to my ears, do everything a tube should do without adding too much mids - good space, good detail, good speed, etc. So it seems like a good foundation to let the 12AU7 add the color. If that doesn’t work out, I’ll try it with the RCA Black Plate 6AS7G or maybe the Sylvania GB6080 to get a little more depth from those tubes.

It must be late if I’m writing this much about a lightbulb from 1959. I wish you all well! Good night


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> After a little more research it appears the Valvo is from 1950s Hamburg and apparently somewhat rare. I actually wanted the German tube but figured it was a mistake, esp. at the price I paid. It has an angled ring getter with no cross bar and long plates, which are characteristic of the German Valvo plant.
> 
> This is a 6AS7G thread. I was looking for a tube that would keep the clarity and space of the TS/Chatham 6080 and 6AS7G tubes I bought, but hopefully add just a touch of mids - something to make violins or vocals just a little sweeter without losing any detail or resolution. I have an Amperex Orange Globe 6922 in my Vali 2. It makes violins and vocals sound amazing but there’s just a tiny bit of detail that’s missing, so I thought the German Valvo might be a little better. I read it was a blend between the German clarity and the Dutch musicality. The Chatham/TS tubes, to my ears, do everything a tube should do without adding too much mids - good space, good detail, good speed, etc. So it seems like a good foundation to let the 12AU7 add the color. If that doesn’t work out, I’ll try it with the RCA Black Plate 6AS7G or maybe the Sylvania GB6080 to get a little more depth from those tubes.
> 
> It must be late if I’m writing this much about a lightbulb from 1959. I wish you all well! Good night



Generally speaking (and I *do* mean generally), I've found Heerlen tubes in the 12A*7 and 6DJ8/6922 families to be on the warmer side of things with excellent midrange color and harmonic detail, but perhaps sacrificing ultimate top end extension and bass definition.  The German made tubes (Telefunkens, Siemens, etc) are more dead-neutral with great bass resolution and punch, but can also sound somewhat clinical and solid state-ish if used in conjunction with other tubes that lean that way.  Just my opinion, and I obviously haven't heard a fraction of what's available out there. So really looking forward to your impression of this (apparently) German made tube.


----------



## SHIMACM

cddc said:


> Yes, synergy is important. You can fine tune TS 6AS7G a little bit using different driver tubes. RCA VT231 grey glass will for sure help to improve the weak bass performance on TS 6AS7G, but the side effect is that it will also blur the whole presentation.
> 
> 5998 is unarguably the better tube. The ongoing market price proves this. Trust the ears of most people and the invisible hands by Adam Smith...lol



I understand why the TS 5998 is so revered. I had to buy one to find out. So, despite the TS 5998 value with a balanced presentation and good bass, I can also state that the TS 6as7g does not confuse the presentation connected to the RCA 6sn7gt vt 231 at all. On the contrary, what I see is an exceptional presentation with a wide range extraordinary media and holography. I don't know what kind of music you like. Maybe with your type of music, your equipment and your driver valves, the presentation is confusing. For my music, and with RCA vt231 as a driver, using my T1 all on Darkvoice the last thing I can say is that the presentation is confusing.


----------



## SHIMACM

Ps: I trust people's ears before I listen on my own. For me, my ears are the best judges.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I understand why the TS 5998 is so revered. I had to buy one to find out. So, despite the TS 5998 value with a balanced presentation and good bass, I can also state that the TS 6as7g does not confuse the presentation connected to the RCA 6sn7gt vt 231 at all. On the contrary, what I see is an exceptional presentation with a wide range extraordinary media and holography. I don't know what kind of music you like. Maybe with your type of music, your equipment and your driver valves, the presentation is confusing. For my music, and with RCA vt231 as a driver, using my T1 all on Darkvoice the last thing I can say is that the presentation is confusing.


Some guys like to come on here and rain on other peoples experiences. They're so unhappy with their pathetic collection so they have to smear everyone else's happy involvement . And not just here, on other forums as well. So sad..


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Aug 22, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Some guys like to come on here and rain on other peoples experiences. They're so unhappy with their pathetic collection so they have to smear everyone else's happy involvement . And not just here, on other forums as well. So sad..


My favorite combo is still a cheap ass Winged C with a Reliatron I bought for $23 (at @JKDJedi recommendation).  And sometimes I get crazy and listen on the low testing NU black glass tube I got for $5.  A couple drinks later it all sounds good anyway.  The hobby is fun, but it's important to keep in mind that we are comparing tech from 60-80 years ago.  We are on the extreme end of the subjective spectrum - and that's where I like to be.
The only place I'll plant my flag and call someone a dumbass is if they doubt the efficacy of a good adapter from @Deyan.  His adapter changed my tube world.

Edit: I'm fortunate that I could afford any tube I want, the fun is finding diamonds in the rough.  And at the end of the day, we all look like chumps when comparing to @kimdeug collection anyway.


----------



## GDuss

Joe Garfield said:


> It must be late if I’m writing this much about a lightbulb from 1959. I wish you all well! Good night



There are 356 pages of "late night writing" on lightbulbs before the page we're on right now.  We're all delirious from lack of sleep  .


----------



## PsilocybinCube

GDuss said:


> There are 356 pages of "late night writing" on lightbulbs before the page we're on right now.  We're all delirious from lack of sleep  .


I have an infant and a toddler.  Yes, I can confirm the lack of sleep.


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> FWIW - here's a pic of my Mullard 6080.



To my knowledge there are two versions of the Mullard 6080, and both were made in Mullard's Mitcham factory, an earlier one from the 1950's, and a later one, from the 1960's and on. And I don't think that Mullard ever manufactured a 6080WA, WB or WC.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-167#post-11868523


----------



## GDuss

gibosi said:


> To my knowledge there are two versions of the Mullard 6080, and both were made in Mullard's Mitcham factory, an earlier one from the 1950's, and a later one, from the 1960's and on. And I don't think that Mullard ever manufactured a 6080WA, WB or WC.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-167#post-11868523



Thanks for this link.  Lots of great information on Mullard 6080's there and in the pages that follow.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Ps: I trust people's ears before I listen on my own. For me, my ears are the best judges.



I trust my own ears, and what others might think is quite irrelevant (to me). That said, I certainly enjoy the recommendations from others and have acquired some truly awesome tubes through those recommendations that I would _never_ have discovered on my own. If I buy a tube that others are fawning over and don't like it, well, I don't like it. I see no need to pooh-pooh it publicly, I just put it in the stash for a later day (and perhaps a different amp where it could sing). I might also try this new concept that @JKDJedi introduced to me the other day: selling it. Still trying to fully understand this strange idea, but I'll continue to work on it.


----------



## SHIMACM

Fantastic combination that. Mullard 6080 and RCA 6ns7gt vt231. The medium ones are so sweet and tender. The spectrum is so balanced. For Jazz and Blues I like this combination better than the TS 5998 and Ken Rad Vt231.






JDKJedi read the following comment about the Mullard 6080 somewhere: "Marketed as having the same sound as the GEC A1834 / CV2523. For a fraction of the cost, this tube has 80% of the sound qualities of the GEC Brown Base. Mainly the same sound , but with less micro details and not as an analytical and weaker instrumental separation ".

You who own the two tubes, confirm that impression?


----------



## cddc

SHIMACM said:


> I understand why the TS 5998 is so revered. I had to buy one to find out. So, despite the TS 5998 value with a balanced presentation and good bass, I can also state that the TS 6as7g does not confuse the presentation connected to the RCA 6sn7gt vt 231 at all. On the contrary, what I see is an exceptional presentation with a wide range extraordinary media and holography. I don't know what kind of music you like. Maybe with your type of music, your equipment and your driver valves, the presentation is confusing. For my music, and with RCA vt231 as a driver, using my T1 all on Darkvoice the last thing I can say is that the presentation is confusing.



Yes, I agree with you. People’s preferences on music genres, gears, tube pairing all affect people’s opinions towards certain tubes, sometimes their opinions could deviate quite a lot, even on the opposite. And I totally respect that.

I’m mainly on classical music, I will say 60% on classical music and the rest 40% on Rock/Jazz/Pop/etc. So I prefer fast neutral airy balanced presentations. I’m on HD800 and Bottlehead Crack with Speedball.

I personally find RCA grey glass not a neutral tube. It has a little bit roll-off on highs, a little bit boasted on lows, and sort of mid-centric, which is typical to the RCA house sound. When I add it to my chain, I find it reduces the clarity of the overall music presentation. So I’m not a fan of this tube. But the tube would work great for people who are mainly on vocals or some genres of music. So I totally understand your love for the pairing on your devices and your ears.


----------



## cddc

JKDJedi said:


> Some guys like to come on here and rain on other peoples experiences. They're so unhappy with their pathetic collection so they have to smear everyone else's happy involvement . And not just here, on other forums as well. So sad..




I can’t believe I can find some nasty comments on head-fi like these, especially from someone I communicated a lot in the past one year or two.

I never laughed at any person’s experience or intentionally tried to make people feel bad. When I express my opinions towards tubes, I always try to be as objective as possible from the facts I learned or from the personal experiences I had. I understand that in the tube world, people’s opinions can often deviate, depending on people’s preferences on music/gears/tube pairing/etc, so I totally tolerate differing or even opposite opinions on tubes. My base line on tubes is trying to be as objective/unbiased as possible, and respect other people’s opinions. 

I recently found you are quite biased on tubes, especially on the ones you own. You have an IBM 5998, and now suddenly it becomes the best version of 5998’s, but I told you IBM 5998 is just a run-of-the-mill 5998’s as I learned IBM bought tons of 5998 tubes from Tung Sol for their computers. You have a WE 421A, now suddenly WE 421A is a different tube from 5998’s and sounds superior to 5998’s. So why @Skylab and @Dubstep Girl who own several WE 421A’s and 5998’s said WE 421A and 5998 are the same tube and the sonic difference is less than 1%. Whether WE 421A and 5998 are the same tube is still a huge ongoing debate, unresolved so far. I tried to be as objective as possible on the topic, so I put forward the idea of testing the 2 tubes on a tube tester with the same plate voltage and grid voltage, the method has never been mentioned in the debate before, I believe. If they are indeed the same tube, they should have similar measured transconductances despite the 6000 uMhos difference on paper (which could be caused by higher testing plate voltage and grid voltage used when they measured WE 421A tubes in factory). Our opinions differ, but I was just trying to be as objective as possible, I never had the intention to rain on your IBM 5998 or WE 421A.  

And, now this “They're so unhappy with their pathetic collection so they have to smear everyone else's happy involvement”. This is really a nasty disgusting comment. I know your 6SN7 and 6AS7G collection, which is less than a quarter of the tubes I’ve collected, in quantity or in value. But I never laughed at your collection, and I would never laugh at any people’s tube connection too, whether he/she is new on tubes or senior, because I know it is a shame to laugh at other people’s tube collection. I know there are always people with much larger collections, much more knowledge and experience on tubes than I do. Laughing at other people’s tube collection can only show your poor education and personality.

Your comments really disgusted me. I will never go to your Dark Voice 336 thread again, and will never reply to your questions. Keep away from me. I don’t want to have any association with uneducated people who can make comments like that.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

GDuss said:


> Thanks for this link.  Lots of great information on Mullard 6080's there and in the pages that follow.


One thing I can say about this tube is that - hands down - it glows brighter than any tube I own.  I actually turned off my amp the first time I used it because I was convinced it was going to explode like some kind of musical bomb.


----------



## GDuss

PsilocybinCube said:


> One thing I can say about this tube is that - hands down - it glows brighter than any tube I own.  I actually turned off my amp the first time I used it because I was convinced it was going to explode like some kind of musical bomb.



Brighter than other 6080's?  I haven't tried mine yet, but will be on the lookout for this when I do.  I definitely think in general that 6080's run hotter than almost any of my other tubes.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

GDuss said:


> Brighter than other 6080's?  I haven't tried mine yet, but will be on the lookout for this when I do.  I definitely think in general that 6080's run hotter than almost any of my other tubes.


Maybe, it's the only tube I have where the gas makes this rainbow burning thing against the walls in the tube as it gets hot.  It looks like a mini explosion in the tube.  My Chatham 6080 doesn't do that.  My 6as7g tubes (RCA, winged C, and cheapo Sino) don't do that.

And now that I used mostly smoked glass or black glass 6sn7 tubes...I get no glow from them.  They sound great and look dull.  Maybe I'll put some LEDs on those black glass tubes to make them more exciting.


----------



## GDuss

PsilocybinCube said:


> Maybe, it's the only tube I have where the gas makes this rainbow burning thing against the walls in the tube as it gets hot.  It looks like a mini explosion in the tube.  My Chatham 6080 doesn't do that.  My 6as7g tubes (RCA, winged C, and cheapo Sino) don't do that.
> 
> And now that I used mostly smoked glass or black glass 6sn7 tubes...I get no glow from them.  They sound great and look dull.  Maybe I'll put some LEDs on those black glass tubes to make them more exciting.



It looks quite bright in the photo you posted, but hard to see the rainbows.  Either way, sounds like you have a tube with some good photo-op potential .


----------



## SHIMACM

cddc said:


> I can’t believe I can find some nasty comments on head-fi like these, especially from someone I communicated a lot in the past one year or two.
> 
> I never laughed at any person’s experience or intentionally tried to make people feel bad. When I express my opinions towards tubes, I always try to be as objective as possible from the facts I learned or from the personal experiences I had. I understand that in the tube world, people’s opinions can often deviate, depending on people’s preferences on music/gears/tube pairing/etc, so I totally tolerate differing or even opposite opinions on tubes. My base line on tubes is trying to be as objective/unbiased as possible, and respect other people’s opinions.
> 
> ...



Let's be calm guys. CDDC I think that all the discomfort was caused by the fact that you say to trust other people's ears, since I have both TS 6as7g and TS 5998 in my collection and you, apparently, don't have TS 5998. It would be different if you had the two tubes and compared them directly with different driver tubes. But, anyway, as you said yourself, it is two years of companionship with JKDJedi that is not worth throwing away, even because this community is very useful for everyone.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

GDuss said:


> It looks quite bright in the photo you posted, but hard to see the rainbows.  Either way, sounds like you have a tube with some good photo-op potential .


The gas flair up only happens for about 1 second as the tube is heating.  I will try to capture a photo during my tube rolling session tonight!!!


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Aug 22, 2020)

What do you guys know about the Tung Sol CAHG-5998? Why is it supposedly rare/hard to find, so therefore sought after? (not my picture)


----------



## Joe Garfield

PsilocybinCube said:


> The gas flair up only happens for about 1 second as the tube is heating.  I will try to capture a photo during my tube rolling session tonight!!!



I have a Chatham 6080 that does this. It’s mostly green gas. I figured it’s from a slight gas leak and I’m seeing a chemical reaction as the getter neutralizes it. But I honestly don’t know, it’s just a guess. It looks great except it makes Me think the tube won’t last as long.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

CaptainFantastic said:


> What do you guys know about the Tung Sol CAHG-5998? Why is it supposedly rare/hard to find, so therefore sought after? (not my picture)


The one with Dominos plates is a good tube based on the last 300 pages of the thread.  IMO the Pizza Hut plates are better.  

Seriously though, the 5998 with these plates seems to be the standard of a great tube.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Joe Garfield said:


> Well that’s good cuz I just bought one!
> Good timing too, my second order of Crack shipped today.



Just for the record it was a 5998 I just bought, not another 6080 or 6AS7G. I’m excited to lend it an ear.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 22, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> The one with Dominos plates is a good tube based on the last 300 pages of the thread.  IMO the Pizza Hut plates are better.
> 
> Seriously though, the 5998 with these plates seems to be the standard of a great tube.


Any pics of the Pizza Hut plate 5998.  Never seen one and you've peaked my interest.  And now I'm hungry to boot.  😄


----------



## Joe Garfield

PsilocybinCube said:


> The one with Dominos plates is a good tube based on the last 300 pages of the thread.  IMO the Pizza Hut plates are better.


You should try one of the off-brand labels from a New York factory. Slightly crispy presentation but with just enough softness in the middle. It really goes with everything.

What’s in these tubes and why am I hungry all of a sudden?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

PsilocybinCube said:


> The one with Dominos plates is a good tube based on the last 300 pages of the thread.  IMO the Pizza Hut plates are better.
> 
> Seriously though, the 5998 with these plates seems to be the standard of a great tube.



Thanks. What do the Pizza Hut plates look like?


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. What do the Pizza Hut plates look like?



If the tube was made at a Pizza Hut near Charlotte NC, this is what the plates look like:


----------



## Joe Garfield




----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 22, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> IMO the Pizza Hut plates are better.





Ripper2860 said:


> Any pics of the Pizza Hut plate 5998.  Never seen one and you've peaked my interest.  And now I'm hungry to boot.  😄



Oh, schiit -- I get it now.  Never mind.   

(Not to self:  Do not post immediately after having 2x Mambo Taxi Margaritas.)


----------



## Joe Garfield

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. What do the Pizza Hut plates look like?



yes - round plates, not square


----------



## CaptainFantastic

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. What do the Pizza Hut plates look like?



In my defense, I am not American.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 22, 2020)

Dominoes is a Pizza chain and so is Pizza Hut.  The OP should have contained the requisite 'smiley' to indicate humor.  Funny, but not cool...


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> In my defense, I am not American.



No worries....neither is @Ripper2860 .  And to date, I _*still*_ can't pronounce the name of his native planet.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 22, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> In my defense, I am not American.



Domino Plate:







‘Dominos’





Pizza Hut:




Real American Pizza:


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 22, 2020)

bcowen said:


> No worries....neither is @Ripper2860 .  And to date, I _*still*_ can't pronounce the name of his native planet.



It's pronounced 'Ginormous Manhood'.  I'm from the planet of Ginormous Manhood!!  Same planet as Ron Jeremy.  Geez!!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Sorry everyone.  I make bad dad jokes.  I should not have taken for granted that this is an international forum.  I apologize for my 'cheesy' joke.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> It's pronounced 'Ginormous Manhood'.  I'm from the planet of Ginormous Manhood!!  Same planet as Ron Jeremy.  Geez!!



Ahhhh....there's the problem.  I kept reading it as Little Red Riding Hood.  Kind of made sense given the Barbie collection, you know.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sorry everyone.  I make bad dad jokes.  I should not have taken for granted that this is an international forum.  I apologize for my 'cheesy' joke.



*I* thought it was funny.


----------



## LoryWiv

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sorry everyone.  I make bad dad jokes.  I should not have taken for granted that this is an international forum.  I apologize for my 'cheesy' joke.


It was "half-baked", but certainly got a "rise" out of people.


----------



## LoryWiv

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sorry everyone.  I make bad dad jokes.  I should not have taken for granted that this is an international forum.  I apologize for my 'cheesy' joke.



Q) When does a joke become a dad joke?

A) When it becomes "apparent."

If that pun doesn't get us back on topic I don't know what will!


----------



## cddc

SHIMACM said:


> Let's be calm guys. CDDC I think that all the discomfort was caused by the fact that you say to trust other people's ears, since I have both TS 6as7g and TS 5998 in my collection and you, apparently, don't have TS 5998. It would be different if you had the two tubes and compared them directly with different driver tubes. But, anyway, as you said yourself, it is two years of companionship with JKDJedi that is not worth throwing away, even because this community is very useful for everyone.



I had a 5998 on loan to me for a week from a friend, and I carefully compared it to the tubes on hand but I eventually preferred my own tubes due to the music preferences I mentioned earlier, so I didn't go for it. I will grab 1 or 2 just for keepers sake, no worries.


----------



## Velozity

LoryWiv said:


> Q) When does a joke become a dad joke?
> 
> A) When it becomes "apparent."
> 
> If that pun doesn't get us back on topic I don't know what will!




That one literally made me laugh out loud.  I reserve the right to use that in the future.


----------



## Joe Garfield

I lIke dad jokes. They’re the only thing that made me consider having kids. But I just didn’t like them quite enough.


----------



## Velozity (Aug 22, 2020)

I've owned and rolled the TS 5998, TS 7236 and Chatham 6AS7G at the same time.  Coincidentally I also had a pair of GEC 6AS7G at the time too.  The 5998 is a great tube, and is deserving of all the praise it gets.  But to my ears, the difference in performance (with the same drivers) from the other power tubes does not elevate it into the stratosphere like it does for some people.  To me, the Chatham 6AS7G clear top is highly underrated and is very much deserving of a spot in the top 5 for this category.  I use a pair of them regularly in my GOTL for reference listening or when evaluating driver tubes.  But they aren't my _favorite_ power tubes either.  That title belongs to the Bendix 6080WB slotted graphite plates.  The Bendix aren't for critical listening, they are just my best tube for pure sonic enjoyment.

I felt the 5998 was better in some areas, but not across the board.  From a value perspective I chose to keep and secure spares of the Chatham and 7236 instead.  And truthfully I don't miss the 5998 or GEC 6AS7G (which I liked better than the 5998 in all areas), even though those are regarded by many as the top two power tubes in the family.  A tube's synergy with other tubes in my amp and the headphones is the ultimate goal for me.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 23, 2020)

Velozity said:


> To me, the Chatham 6AS7G clear top is highly underrated



I must agree.  While I do enjoy the TS 5998 with my setup and my music, I never feel I am missing out on anything when I roll in the Chatham 6AS7G clear top.  Heck, I may even like it a tiny bit more than the 5998.  I do find the bottom getter / clear top Chatham 6AS7G sounds better to me than the top getter version, but I'm just a jazz guy so what do I know??


----------



## LoryWiv

Velozity said:


> That one literally made me laugh out loud.  I reserve the right to use that in the future.



Use it without reservations....


----------



## adeadcrab

New amp is here, time to get back into the tube rolling game.. got the Bendix 6080WB rolled in for a good start...


----------



## Joe Garfield

adeadcrab said:


> New amp is here, time to get back into the tube rolling game.. got the Bendix 6080WB rolled in for a good start...


Congrats! And, I’m jealous . What’s the new amp?


----------



## adeadcrab

La Figaro 339i


(not my pic)


----------



## Joe Garfield

That’s a beautiful piece of equipment. I hope it sounds half as good as it looks!


----------



## Tom-s (Aug 23, 2020)

So i opened a window this morning, to cool my study, for a good day of tube rolling!
Downstairs i heard the unmistakable sound of shattering glass.


It could technically be called "tube rolling"; this one did a false start!...

RIP 1954 - 2020
Death by "tube rolling" off my desk


----------



## Joe Garfield

Oh noooooo! Aw that’s too bad


----------



## adeadcrab

Tom-s said:


> So i opened a window this morning, to cool my study, for a good day of tube rolling!
> Downstairs i heard the unmistakable sound of shattering glass.
> 
> 
> ...




OMG


you are not to be trusted with tubes


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 23, 2020)

Tom-s said:


> So i opened a window this morning, to cool my study, for a good day of tube rolling!
> Downstairs i heard the unmistakable sound of shattering glass.
> 
> 
> ...



When I bought my first Jeep last year I was running errands with the top and doors off. Something blew out but I didn’t realize what it was until way later: an envelope with a rent sized, unsigned money order.
Idk if that helps. “It’s only money” until the well is bone dry.


----------



## SHIMACM

Tom-s said:


> So i opened a window this morning, to cool my study, for a good day of tube rolling!
> Downstairs i heard the unmistakable sound of shattering glass.
> 
> 
> ...



It hurt my stomach!


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Tom-s said:


> So i opened a window this morning, to cool my study, for a good day of tube rolling!
> Downstairs i heard the unmistakable sound of shattering glass.
> 
> 
> ...



I feel your pain. But one optimistic way to look at it is that now you are likely to be very careful with your tubes in the future. Maybe this incident will lead to saving other tubes, maybe it even prevented a bigger incident, like a multiple tube situation.


----------



## bcowen

Tom-s said:


> So i opened a window this morning, to cool my study, for a good day of tube rolling!
> Downstairs i heard the unmistakable sound of shattering glass.
> 
> 
> ...



Noooooooooo!!!!!   Such things never seem to happen with cheap tubes you don't much care for...


----------



## bcowen

adeadcrab said:


> La Figaro 339i
> 
> 
> (not my pic)



Sweet!  Very interested to hear what you think of it. 

I'm confused though:  descriptions of it on several sites refer to it as an OTL amp.  If so, why are there 3 transformers?  Or are the ones on the left and right the input trannies for their respective channel, and the piece in the center isn't a transformer (but just a cover for other stuff)?


----------



## cddc

I'm confused by the 3 transformers too, but La Figaro 339i should be an OTL amp for sure, because it uses the OTL power tubes that everyone here is quite familiar with.

I guess the 2 small transformers are for the 2 power tubes, and larger one is for the input tubes and all other components...🤔


----------



## cddc

Tom-s said:


> So i opened a window this morning, to cool my study, for a good day of tube rolling!
> Downstairs i heard the unmistakable sound of shattering glass.
> 
> 
> ...




RIP...what a chaos on these Tung Sol 6AS7G and 5998 tubes recently...


----------



## LoryWiv

Tom-s said:


> So i opened a window this morning, to cool my study, for a good day of tube rolling!
> Downstairs i heard the unmistakable sound of shattering glass.
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry for your loss, @Tom-s. Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse: global pandemic, marches in the street for social justice, now this! Seriously, in challenging times music is a respite for our souls, hopefully this malady will lead you to discover other glorious tubes. As for the Tung Sol of shattered dreams, I guess it was seeking to deliver a lower noise "floor." May it's getter flash brightly in a better place and may it rest in pieces.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

CaptainFantastic said:


> In my defense, I am not American.


You must know that a username like Captain Fantastic sounds wonderfully American.


LoryWiv said:


> Sorry for your loss, @Tom-s. Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse: global pandemic, marches in the street for social justice, now this! Seriously, in challenging times music is a respite for our souls, hopefully this malady will lead you to discover other glorious tubes. As for the Tung Sol of shattered dreams, I guess it was seeking to deliver a lower noise "floor." May it's getter flash brightly in a better place and may it rest in pieces.


Maybe the tube was 'rolling on the floor laughing' at our Dominos jokes from yesterday???

But seriously, I'll pour one out for a fallen homie.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Sorry for your loss, @Tom-s. Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse: global pandemic, marches in the street for social justice, now this! Seriously, in challenging times music is a respite for our souls, hopefully this malady will lead you to discover other glorious tubes. As for the Tung Sol of shattered dreams, I guess it was seeking to deliver a lower noise "floor." May it's getter flash brightly in a better place and may it rest in pieces.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> You must know that a username like Captain Fantastic sounds wonderfully American.
> 
> Maybe the tube was 'rolling on the floor laughing' at our Dominos jokes from yesterday???
> 
> But seriously, I'll pour one out for a fallen homie.


----------



## adeadcrab (Aug 23, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Very interested to hear what you think of it.
> 
> I'm confused though:  descriptions of it on several sites refer to it as an OTL amp.  If so, why are there 3 transformers?  Or are the ones on the left and right the input trannies for their respective channel, and the piece in the center isn't a transformer (but just a cover for other stuff)?



I think you are right. Power transformer on each channel and a coupling capacitor in the middle. It's an OTL design! Rocking them with the Elex, listening to Metallica... missed the tube sound. The THX 789 is narrow and claustrophobic in comparison to the tube presentation.

I had the previous model too, this one has preamp out and some upgraded internals.
The 6AS7GA GE from parts express, for $12 each are rocking pretty hard right now.

edit - the power transformer might be in the middle, not sure...!


----------



## bcowen (Aug 23, 2020)

adeadcrab said:


> I think you are right. Power transformer on each channel and a coupling capacitor in the middle. It's an OTL design! Rocking them with the Elex, listening to Metallica... missed the tube sound. The THX 789 is narrow and claustrophobic in comparison to the tube presentation.
> 
> I had the previous model too, this one has preamp out and some upgraded internals.
> The 6AS7GA GE from parts express, for $12 each are rocking pretty hard right now.
> ...



Here's a pic off the net. It's of the previous, non-I version but the layout of the transformers is likely pretty close if not the same.  Input transformers left and right, and it appears the center can is covering some capacitors.  Looks like it's very nicely put together!


----------



## adeadcrab

That's right - the left and right power transformers are now ASC branded in the upgraded version, if that matters to you


----------



## bcowen

adeadcrab said:


> That's right - the left and right power transformers are now ASC branded in the upgraded version, if that matters to you



LOL!  I was just curious....and of course I'm anal.


----------



## Joe Garfield

bcowen said:


> Generally speaking (and I *do* mean generally), I've found Heerlen tubes in the 12A*7 and 6DJ8/6922 families to be on the warmer side of things with excellent midrange color and harmonic detail, but perhaps sacrificing ultimate top end extension and bass definition.  The German made tubes (Telefunkens, Siemens, etc) are more dead-neutral with great bass resolution and punch, but can also sound somewhat clinical and solid state-ish if used in conjunction with other tubes that lean that way.  Just my opinion, and I obviously haven't heard a fraction of what's available out there. So really looking forward to your impression of this (apparently) German made tube.



Here’s a general review of the Valvo 12AU7 with angled ring getter from Munich. I‘ll go into some detail so people can get a feel for my perception and personally decide of my opinions are worth paying attention to or not.

After more than 24 hours I feel it’s safe to comment on the Valvo. Obviously these are my personal impressions that I got using my own personal equipment. It sounded ‘off’ out of the box, actually kind of midrange heavy and dull, but within about 45 minutes it developed a general sonic character that has remained constant. Basically it’s just like every description of a West German tube. It’s well extended in both directions, very clear and controlled, extremely good detail, and not harsh or over presented at either end. I would say it has a ‘ruler flat’ midrange. I personally prefer a little extra midrange compared to most people, so while it might sound a little too flat it’s probably just right for many, many people. I also am treble sensitive, at least compared to the majority, so that poses an Issue as I’ll describe below. I’m not saying I think this tube is bright, just that the extended upper end is worth considering when thinking about synergy. 

Yes it does add to the bass of the Chatham 6AS7G. Listening to some bluegrass (Jerry Garcia and David Grisman‘s Shady Grove, recorded live in a studio with some other musicians), with Sylvania 12AU7 I have to listen hard to hear the stand-up bass playing in the first track. With the Valvo there’s no questioning it’s there. It’s a subtle boost. It’s also a very well defined and controlled boost - not just adding bass volume or bloom, but adding very natural sounding bass frequencies. After listening to some other tubes since evaluating the Valvo, I’m even more impressed with the detail and control. Some tubes exaggerate frequencies, or add their own color to frequencies, and I feel like the Valvo doesn’t really add color, it just doesn’t take away from anything, anywhere.

I think this West German tube should be paired with a warm power tube. Brent Jesse‘s description was that Valvo has have a little more midrange warmth than other West German tubes, likely because of the Philips relationship. “Telefunken highs with Amperex warmth” or something like that was the description. I haven’t heard Telefunken yet so I can’t make a comparison, but my hunch is that there’s either not much extra warmth, or, Telefunken must be very dry in the middle, which I doubt based on the popularity.

Regarding the top end: the West German tubes have a reputation for air, sparkle, holography, etc. I know Tung Sol 6080 isn’t the highest rated tube, but with my perfect-measuring BH Crack, with my HD650s, Multibit DAC, etc. I find an extraordinary amount of depth and space. I put on some high res. trance the other night and I honestly felt I was floating in outer space, with sound coming from every possible direction and from as close or as far as the universe extended. The point is, there really isn’t much to improve upon in this department with my equipment. So it’s hard to say what Valvo adds in this area. The only thing I can say is that “3 dimensional imaging” might be a little more articulate with the Valvo. Same room, same air, but just a better sense of exactly where things are.

What’s a negative for me, is that with tubes that already have a flat midrange and extended highs, the Valvo isn’t a good pairing. Like I said I can be treble sensitive compared to most others. When I drop in the Valvo tube, I become very aware of cymbals, to an annoying level. I think that a lot of that is due to modern mixing, and I end up preferring rolled-off highs to compensate. But I listened to Phish’s A Live One (Harry Hood on that album is what I use to evaluate any new piece of equipment, although it’s only 44.1kHz/16bit) and couldn’t escape concentrating on the ride, crash, and high hat cymbals. I wouldn’t say it was necessarily over powering, but just more pronounced than I like to hear. So I don’t necessarily think the Valvo is ’adding too much’ to the highs when compared with Chatham 6AS7G, but it has more highs and less mids than Sylvania/Baldwin, and to my ears sounds less musical and less enjoyable. 

I tried the Valvo with RCA 6AS7G and it’s a better pairing. However it kind of brings out this uncontrolled upper bass bloom. I thought the RCA 6AS7G was pretty popular so I got a couple, but honestly it’s hard to listen to after experiencing Chatham and Tung Sol tubes. I think the Valvo doesn’t have whatever the Sylvania had that sort of covered up the blemishes of the RCA power tube. But there also might be a synergy there that adds bass in a way that’s unpleasing - again, with my equipment.  I also listened to Valvo with GE 6AS7G (likely Chatham made). That tube has more bass than the Chatham label, slightly less depth, and is slightly less refined. I think Valvo was very revealing of all that. It did seem to help with the refinement and general spatial orientation, but honestly it left me longing to listen to my Sylvania, which just seems to pair well with every power tube I own.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Guys (and gals), just curious what your strategy is for using/saving/storing tubes. Like, do you save the special ones? Or do you use the best you’ve got? And also curious how often others actually roll once they find what they like.


----------



## fuzzroffe

I'm using the tubes I like best, there's no point in saving them IMO. Once in a while I'll try some other tubes for a while and maybe get a new favorite


----------



## PsilocybinCube

fuzzroffe said:


> I'm using the tubes I like best, there's no point in saving them IMO. Once in a while I'll try some other tubes for a while and maybe get a new favorite


While we are on this topic, for those of us that are hoarding tubes (I'm a newbie but already buying waaay to many tubes), this looks like a cool storage mechanism:

https://www.vivatubes.com/large-blue-cream-tung-sol-vintage-radio-tv-vacuum-tube-valve-caddy-case/

I'd love to have this store tubes in...I might have to buy it unless someone else does first.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 25, 2020)

Very cool!
I told myself I wouldn't hoard tubes. It's been 2 weeks and I've got over 10 power tubes and 6 input tubes :/
Edit: USPS just confirmed delivery of another    lol


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> While we are on this topic, for those of us that are hoarding tubes (I'm a newbie but already buying waaay to many tubes), this looks like a cool storage mechanism:
> 
> https://www.vivatubes.com/large-blue-cream-tung-sol-vintage-radio-tv-vacuum-tube-valve-caddy-case/
> 
> I'd love to have this store tubes in...I might have to buy it unless someone else does first.



I outgrew mine around 500 tubes ago:





These bins slide nicely up under the bed. As a bonus, I can guard them while I sleep.


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> I'm using the tubes I like best, there's no point in saving them IMO. Once in a while I'll try some other tubes for a while and maybe get a new favorite



Me too.  The not-in-use stash is comprised of backups (and backups for the backups), the also-rans, and the 'may be a winner in a future component' acquisitions.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> Very cool!
> I told myself I wouldn't hoard tubes. It's been 2 weeks and I've got over 10 power tubes and 6 input tubes :/
> Edit: USPS just confirmed delivery of another    lol



You're an addict now.  We meet every other week if you want to join us.  Doesn't help, but it gives the impression we're trying.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> You're an addict now.  We meet every other week if you want to join us.  Doesn't help, but it gives the impression we're trying.


Lately I have tubes showing up that I don't remember ordering...it's bad.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> While we are on this topic, for those of us that are hoarding tubes (I'm a newbie but already buying waaay to many tubes), this looks like a cool storage mechanism:
> 
> https://www.vivatubes.com/large-blue-cream-tung-sol-vintage-radio-tv-vacuum-tube-valve-caddy-case/
> 
> I'd love to have this store tubes in...I might have to buy it unless someone else does first.



This one looks to be in better condition for less money....unless, of course, you must have a Tung Sol case.  At least it's not a GE.       I was lucky enough to grab mine a number of years ago still sealed in the factory shipping box.  Hard to find them like that anymore.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-Blac...453614?hash=item23b9c383ee:g:UFYAAOSwI5FbagSo


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Lately I have tubes showing up that I don't remember ordering...it's bad.



ROFL!  But you're not dead yet.  Wait until your next move and find a couple boxes under a pile of stuff in the back of a closet.  One of the only rewards associated with moving that I can think of.


----------



## gibosi

Joe Garfield said:


> Guys (and gals), just curious what your strategy is for using/saving/storing tubes. Like, do you save the special ones? Or do you use the best you’ve got? And also curious how often others actually roll once they find what they like.



I'm reluctant to use tubes I really like until I have at least one spare. 

And like bcowen I have way too many tubes, a couple thousand by now, to fit in one of those neat storage boxes. Almost every tube I own is in a tube box, and as I live alone, these boxes are stored in various bureau drawers and and book shelves throughout the house.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> This one looks to be in better condition for less money....unless, of course, you must have a Tung Sol case.  At least it's not a GE.       I was lucky enough to grab mine a number of years ago still sealed in the factory shipping box.  Hard to find them like that anymore.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-Blac...453614?hash=item23b9c383ee:g:UFYAAOSwI5FbagSo





These are for professional hoarders like @bcowen  😉

But I'm just an amateur collector, so I only use these $8ish Walmart storage bins a quarter size of bcowan's. 😝


----------



## cddc

Joe Garfield said:


> Here’s a general review of the Valvo 12AU7 with angled ring getter from Munich. I‘ll go into some detail so people can get a feel for my perception and personally decide of my opinions are worth paying attention to or not.
> 
> After more than 24 hours I feel it’s safe to comment on the Valvo. Obviously these are my personal impressions that I got using my own personal equipment. It sounded ‘off’ out of the box, actually kind of midrange heavy and dull, but within about 45 minutes it developed a general sonic character that has remained constant. Basically it’s just like every description of a West German tube. It’s well extended in both directions, very clear and controlled, extremely good detail, and not harsh or over presented at either end. I would say it has a ‘ruler flat’ midrange. I personally prefer a little extra midrange compared to most people, so while it might sound a little too flat it’s probably just right for many, many people. I also am treble sensitive, at least compared to the majority, so that poses an Issue as I’ll describe below. I’m not saying I think this tube is bright, just that the extended upper end is worth considering when thinking about synergy.
> 
> ...



Very nice review! My impression towards Telefunken 12AU7 is very close to your description about the Valvo, something in common for German tubes.


----------



## cddc (Aug 25, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> While we are on this topic, for those of us that are hoarding tubes (I'm a newbie but already buying waaay to many tubes), this looks like a cool storage mechanism:
> 
> https://www.vivatubes.com/large-blue-cream-tung-sol-vintage-radio-tv-vacuum-tube-valve-caddy-case/
> 
> I'd love to have this store tubes in...I might have to buy it unless someone else does first.




The Caddy box from vivatube is definitely overpriced, looks so broke

Check out this one from one little dot owner, gorgeous looking










Unfortunately, it's branded as GE, and I'm pretty sure @bcowen will repaint the logo to anything other than GE if he gets one.


----------



## Joe Garfield

cddc said:


> The Candy box from vivatube is definitely overpriced, looks so broke
> 
> Check out this one from one little dot owner, gorgeous looking
> 
> ...


It looks pretty because nobody wants to use GE tubes. Sylvanias, otoh, get some use


----------



## Joe Garfield

Great, you had to make me go look for this. Now this is a thing of beauty!



https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-dfc...20/47128/BMISC367_1__82013.1531421623.JPG?c=2


----------



## Ripper2860

Lightweights.  This is my tube storage system ...


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> The Caddy box from vivatube is definitely overpriced, looks so broke
> 
> Check out this one from one little dot owner, gorgeous looking
> 
> ...



LOL!  Perhaps a good artist could add a "C" at the end of GE which would make it quite desirable.


----------



## Joe Garfield (Aug 26, 2020)

I got this 5998 in the mail today (can’t say thank you enough to who I got it from!). It hasn’t been on long, but...

5998 + Valvo = Holy Schiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttt


----------



## cddc

Joe Garfield said:


> I got this 5998 in the mail today (can’t say thank you enough to who I got it from!). It hasn’t been on long, but...
> 
> 5998 + Valvo = Holy Schiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttt



LOL...I think I've told you about that earlier...TS 5998 vs TS 6AS7G


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Aug 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> He has another tube up that's marked Motorola but I wouldn't pay or bother with that tube, doesn't have the domino plates, that's why the first listing was a must grab.. someone scored...


I bought that Motorola thinking I was getting the ts tube.  He had the ts in the description.  He took a fairly low offer.  Then I go back and see this in the thread.  Oh well, the tube does sound nice, probably fair for the price I paid.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

PsilocybinCube said:


> I bought that Motorola thinking I was getting the ts tube.  He had the ts in the description.  He took a fairly low offer.  Then I go back and see this in the thread.  Oh well, the tube does sound nice, probably fair for the price I paid.



I grabbed the first one, to do JKDJedi a favour as he requested, of course. I will let you know if it impresses or disappoints. I probably won't comment if it sounds like my TS 5998s.


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> I grabbed the first one, to do JKDJedi a favour as he requested, of course. I will let you know if it impresses or disappoints. I probably won't comment if it sounds like my TS 5998s.


I'd like to hear this ..please do! 🙂


----------



## PsilocybinCube

CaptainFantastic said:


> I grabbed the first one, to do JKDJedi a favour as he requested, of course. I will let you know if it impresses or disappoints. I probably won't comment if it sounds like my TS 5998s.


Just let me know if you want to swap for the Motorola tube.  I think that's a fair trade.  I'm sure everyone on this thread will agree 

But really, the tube does sound pretty good.  At first I was disappointed, then I was surprised and happy.  It's not amazing, but it sounded a good bit better than the winged C I've been rocking for a while.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Just let me know if you want to swap for the Motorola tube.  I think that's a fair trade.  I'm sure everyone on this thread will agree
> 
> But really, the tube does sound pretty good.  At first I was disappointed, then I was surprised and happy.  It's not amazing, but it sounded a good bit better than the winged C I've been rocking for a while.


I was tempted to grab that tube bad.  Glad someone here got it ☺️


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm waiting to hear about the one non-GE tube that has NOT tempted you!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm waiting to hear about the one non-GE tube that has NOT tempted you!!


😂 Well... I'm in the doghouse guys.. no further collecting till I figure out how without the better half knowing.. 😒


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> 😂 Well... I'm in the doghouse guys.. no further collecting till I figure out how without the better half knowing.. 😒



Well, with the virus this may not be possible in your case, but back in the day, I used to have everything sent to the office where I worked. And then it was a lot easier to sneak it into the house. lol. However, now I'm retired and single, so no problems.


----------



## gibosi

Well, this is a bit off topic, but since these tubes can be used in place of 6AS7 in an OTL it might be of interest to some here.

I recently picked up a bunch of Melz 6H12C (or 6N12S). These are double triodes with 1 amp heaters. So one might consider them to be somewhat similar to 6BX7 and 6BL7. I am currently running 6 of these, three per channel. Since I have had them only a few days, I haven't been able to spend much time with them, but so far I like what I am hearing. 

Here with a Cossor 53KU rectifier on the left and a WWII-era gray-glass National Union VT-231.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Hey guys, what about the 7236? Do you like them?


----------



## LoryWiv

I found TS 7236 to be technically excellent but a bit clinical, almost solid state in character. Of course with a warm driver that may be an asset.


----------



## SHIMACM

I completely forgot about the TS 5998 vs TS 6as7g comparison when I heard the Mullard 6080. What a wonderful tube!


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> 😂 Well... I'm in the doghouse guys.. no further collecting till I figure out how without the better half knowing.. 😒



This worked for me ...

1. Rent a box at Kinkos or UPS Store
2. Have tubes shipped there.
3. Go get them and unbox them a the Kinkos/UPS store
4. Put one tube in your front pocket (it may take several trips if a bulk order or matched pair)
5. Go home and upon entering the door smile and tell the wife -- "I've been thinking about you all day and no that's not a tube in my pants, I'm just happy to see you!!"  I think I'll go slip into something more comfortable.  Meet me in the bedroom in 10 minutes!!".  (Be sure to give her a come hither look and a wink)

Now you have 10 minutes to take the tube out of your pocket and hide it before she comes in.  If you're lucky it's a win/win -- new tube and sex!!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

SHIMACM said:


> I completely forgot about the TS 5998 vs TS 6as7g comparison when I heard the Mullard 6080. What a wonderful tube!


IMO the Mullard is excellent as a 6080 but has that characteristic muddiness (but enhanced bass and mids) of the 6080. When combined with a bright 6sn7 or 12au7, it works quite well.

I use HD800 headphones and with those, I prefer the 6as7g and a warmer tube, but the Mullard with a bright tube is fantastic.

The Mullard glows bright which is worth a lot, too.  Sound is only as good as ascetics.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ripper2860 said:


> This worked for me ...
> 
> 1. Rent a box at Kinkos or UPS Store
> 2. Have tubes shipped there.
> ...


@JKDJedi as you are also a mountain biker, just order new tires and request the tubes be inserted between the tires.  Best to order some tires with skinnier casings to fit more tubes.

If I ever became a drug dealer, this is how I'd ship my stuff.  It's not Cushcore, it's Cokecore or OGCushCore in those wheels.


----------



## SHIMACM

PsilocybinCube said:


> IMO the Mullard is excellent as a 6080 but has that characteristic muddiness (but enhanced bass and mids) of the 6080. When combined with a bright 6sn7 or 12au7, it works quite well.
> 
> I use HD800 headphones and with those, I prefer the 6as7g and a warmer tube, but the Mullard with a bright tube is fantastic.
> 
> The Mullard glows bright which is worth a lot, too.  Sound is only as good as ascetics.



It combined very well with RCA vt231 and Raytheon Vt231. Since my T1 is the first generation, Mullard's warmth did him a lot of good.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> @JKDJedi as you are also a mountain biker, just order new tires and request the tubes be inserted between the tires.  Best to order some tires with skinnier casings to fit more tubes.
> 
> If I ever became a drug dealer, this is how I'd ship my stuff.  It's not Cushcore, it's Cokecore or OGCushCore in those wheels.


I run  Tubeless. Hitting Big Bear Summit this Monday....stoked. 😁


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> I got this 5998 in the mail today (can’t say thank you enough to who I got it from!). It hasn’t been on long, but...
> 
> 5998 + Valvo = Holy Schiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttt



Pics or it didn't happen.  You know the drill.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> Hey guys, what about the 7236? Do you like them?



I like the Cetron 7236 better than the Tung Sol.  Maybe a fluke though, as it's quite possible that Tung Sol made the Cetron.     I may just have a bad sample of the Tung Sol too.  The Cetron sounds quite nice with a warm-er driver tube like an RCA gray glass or a KenRad. A bit strident with a Foton or Melz 6N8S, at least for my tastes.

Of course, once you stick in a WE 421A, everything else sounds broken.  I'm done rolling tubes.  Yup, no further need. No more new old tubes for me. Ever. Period.  Not buying another ever again. Nope. Well, except maybe a backup 421A.  Or two. Maybe three.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Well, this is a bit off topic, but since these tubes can be used in place of 6AS7 in an OTL it might be of interest to some here.
> 
> I recently picked up a bunch of Melz 6H12C (or 6N12S). These are double triodes with 1 amp heaters. So one might consider them to be somewhat similar to 6BX7 and 6BL7. I am currently running 6 of these, three per channel. Since I have had them only a few days, I haven't been able to spend much time with them, but so far I like what I am hearing.
> 
> Here with a Cossor 53KU rectifier on the left and a WWII-era gray-glass National Union VT-231.



Dangit.  I don't have any 6N12S's.  At least right now.   

That Cossor is a thing of beauty!!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> I run  Tubeless. Hitting Big Bear Summit this Monday....stoked. 😁


'Tube'less.  I appreciate the pun.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> 'Tube'less.  I appreciate the pun.



ROFL!  It's a solid-state bike.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Dangit.  I don't have any 6N12S's.  At least right now.
> 
> That Cossor is a thing of beauty!!



I got very lucky and picked up a bunch of 6N12S for only $15 each, all manufactured in 1962. Current eBay listings are considerably more expensive.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I like the Cetron 7236 better than the Tung Sol.  Maybe a fluke though, as it's quite possible that Tung Sol made the Cetron.     I may just have a bad sample of the Tung Sol too.  The Cetron sounds quite nice with a warm-er driver tube like an RCA gray glass or a KenRad. A bit strident with a Foton or Melz 6N8S, at least for my tastes.
> 
> Of course, once you stick in a WE 421A, everything else sounds broken.  I'm done rolling tubes.  Yup, no further need. No more new old tubes for me. Ever. Period.  Not buying another ever again. Nope. Well, except maybe a backup 421A.  Or two. Maybe three.


LOL. You like it.


----------



## Joe Garfield

bcowen said:


> I like the Cetron 7236 better than the Tung Sol.  Maybe a fluke though, as it's quite possible that Tung Sol made the Cetron.     I may just have a bad sample of the Tung Sol too.  The Cetron sounds quite nice with a warm-er driver tube like an RCA gray glass or a KenRad. A bit strident with a Foton or Melz 6N8S, at least for my tastes.
> 
> Of course, once you stick in a WE 421A, everything else sounds broken.  I'm done rolling tubes.  Yup, no further need. No more new old tubes for me. Ever. Period.  Not buying another ever again. Nope. Well, except maybe a backup 421A.  Or two. Maybe three.



I hear you. The 5998 is nice. There aren’t many, I’ve only got one, and I’ve got a lead on a 7236 so I’m wondering if I should buy it.


----------



## Joe Garfield

bcowen said:


> Pics or it didn't happen.  You know the drill.


----------



## adeadcrab

interesting ebay sale - what are these? They say 3999 on the tube - are they 5998s? But the internals look like 7236 to me.. and those usually go for cheaper online.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RARE-5-...WB-6AS7G-BOX-PLATE-TUBES-WE-421A/184374732904


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> interesting ebay sale - what are these? They say 3999 on the tube - are they 5998s? But the internals look like 7236 to me.. and those usually go for cheaper online.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RARE-5-...WB-6AS7G-BOX-PLATE-TUBES-WE-421A/184374732904


I believe them to be 7236. Rare black based type, usually metal based.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> I believe them to be 7236. Rare black based type, usually metal based.



The construction certainly looks like my TS 7236. But still, I have never seen a black-based 7236, and from the pictures, we can't see the tube number which is usually etched into the top of the bulb, so I'd be very skeptical.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> LOL. You like it.



     A little.  LOL!


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> I hear you. The 5998 is nice. There aren’t many, I’ve only got one, and I’ve got a lead on a 7236 so I’m wondering if I should buy it.



I _still _don't have a TS 5998.  The only one I've purchased so far was lost by the USPS.  I'd still like to hear one, though I imagine it's going to be pretty close to the WE 421A. Just that ever-present FOMO....


----------



## bcowen

Sweet!!!


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> The construction certainly looks like my TS 7236. But still, I have never seen a black-based 7236, and from the pictures, we can't see the tube number which is usually etched into the top of the bulb, so I'd be very skeptical.



*Extremely* skeptical, seeing the seller is Bangy Bang.


----------



## Joe Garfield

bcowen said:


> *Extremely* skeptical, seeing the seller is Bangy Bang.



If you Google the 3213999 number you get a bunch of hits for a Cetron 7236. As above, that tube usually has a metal base in the online photos. I also think the getter looks a little different, but I'm not that familiar with any changes that may have happened. I didn't see where it said Bangy Bang but I've heard to avoid that seller.


----------



## Joe Garfield

I don't know what the hell is happening here, I can't stop buying tubes   lol

I just got IBM/TS 5998 and now have on the way a TS 7236, along with Mullard, Amperex, Philips 12AU7. I really need to upgrade my Crack to better caps, volume pot, etc before buying more tubes but can't seem to help it.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> If you Google the 3213999 number you get a bunch of hits for a Cetron 7236. As above, that tube usually has a metal base in the online photos. I also think the getter looks a little different, but I'm not that familiar with any changes that may have happened. I didn't see where it said Bangy Bang but I've heard to avoid that seller.



Menifee Audio is another Bangy Bang site. The Menifee ads used to be chock full of the same apostrophe abuse as the Bangy Bang ads, used to have the same "guaranteed to work excellent on your gear's" (sic) repeated religiously, and in the yellow-ish box at the bottom even used to say "Thank You, Bangy Bang Tubes" before it was finally edited.  No question they're one and the same.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> I don't know what the hell is happening here, I can't stop buying tubes   lol
> 
> I just got IBM/TS 5998 and now have on the way a TS 7236, along with Mullard, Amperex, Philips 12AU7. I really need to upgrade my Crack to better caps, volume pot, etc before buying more tubes but can't seem to help it.



LOL!  Don't try and fight it.  It doesn't help.    

And don't stop now...you need a Holland-made long plate, foil getter Amperex 7316 to round out that 12AU7 stash.  Sorry to _not_ help.


----------



## Joe Garfield

Yeah I went with relatively cheap tubes just to try manufacturer’s “flavors”. Once I have combos I like maybe I’ll spring for the best 12AU7.  But I made sure to get strong measuring Blackburn and Heerlen made tubes at least.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> Yeah I went with relatively cheap tubes just to try manufacturer’s “flavors”. Once I have combos I like maybe I’ll spring for the best 12AU7.  But I made sure to get strong measuring Blackburn and Heerlen made tubes at least.



Hard to go wrong with _anything_ made at either of those two plants, IMO.


----------



## Joe Garfield

That's what I figured. It's hard to know what kind of difference long vs short tubes, angled vs flat or ring vs square getters will make.


----------



## attmci

adeadcrab said:


> interesting ebay sale - what are these? They say 3999 on the tube - are they 5998s? But the internals look like 7236 to me.. and those usually go for cheaper online.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RARE-5-...WB-6AS7G-BOX-PLATE-TUBES-WE-421A/184374732904


menifee_audio 

No.......................


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I _still _don't have a TS 5998.  The only one I've purchased so far was lost by the USPS.  I'd still like to hear one, though I imagine it's going to be pretty close to the WE 421A. Just that ever-present FOMO....


The clear-top 5998 is identical to the 421A.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> The clear-top 5998 is identical to the 421A.



I'm not sure they are identical, as I don't have a 421A, but I sure do like my clear-top 5998's. 

Below: Cossor 53KU, a pair of clear-top 5998s and a pair of EL3N (Philips - WIRAG). (My pixel phone takes great night pics and this is one of my favorites.)


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> *Extremely* skeptical, seeing the seller is Bangy Bang.



I agree with you, *Menifee_Audio*, aka *BangyBang* is a notorious scammer, often sells fraudulent tubes.

The tubes in question do look like Tung Sol 7236 from afar, but if you look closely, there are differences. 1. TS 7236 has metal base, while his only has plastic base; 2. TS 7236 has *rectangular* box plates, while his has not. It's definitely not rectangular box plates with his tubes, there are some irregular angles on his box plates.

Due to his reputation, there is a chance that these are not 7236/6080/421A tubes and you can't use them at all on your OTL amp.


----------



## cddc

BTW, same as gibosi, I've never seen any Tung Sol 7236 tubes that come without metal bases.


----------



## cddc (Aug 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Menifee Audio is another Bangy Bang site. The Menifee ads used to be chock full of the same apostrophe abuse as the Bangy Bang ads, used to have the same "guaranteed to work excellent on your gear's" (sic) repeated religiously, and in the yellow-ish box at the bottom even used to say "Thank You, Bangy Bang Tubes" before it was finally edited.  No question they're one and the same.



I also don't have confidence in Menifee's measurements. While he always claims his tubes are 100% NOS and guaranteed to work perfectly, he never told you what kind of tube tester he uses, what the minimum and NOS measurements are on that tester, and how accurate his tester is. He's very sneaky on measurements.


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Menifee Audio is another Bangy Bang site. The Menifee ads used to be chock full of the same apostrophe abuse as the Bangy Bang ads, used to have the same "guaranteed to work excellent on your gear's" (sic) repeated religiously, and in the yellow-ish box at the bottom even used to say "Thank You, Bangy Bang Tubes" before it was finally edited.  No question they're one and the same.


Not to be unduly nice but I've bought tubes from Menifee twice and had good experiences. Tubes were as stated and in excellent condition, but I did make a counter-offer to get them for a price I felt was reasonable. He was actually quite pleasant and courteous to deal with. YMMV.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

I am still learning about buying tubes on eBay. How come this Menifer has a 100% rating? I initially thought that the rating from buyers has got to be a good indicator of trustworthiness, but suspected there is something up because almost all of them have 100 or 99.x%. It can't be like Amazon fake reviews, these are actual buyers and two negatives would quickly sink the percentage. So how do they do it?


----------



## Dogmatrix

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am still learning about buying tubes on eBay. How come this Menifer has a 100% rating? I initially thought that the rating from buyers has got to be a good indicator of trustworthiness, but suspected there is something up because almost all of them have 100 or 99.x%. It can't be like Amazon fake reviews, these are actual buyers and two negatives would quickly sink the percentage. So how do they do it?


Simple really when they get negative feedback they open a new account in a new name


----------



## cddc

Dogmatrix said:


> Simple really when they get negative feedback they open a new account in a new name




That's exactly what *greengirl613 *did, so now he has at least 4 eBay selling accounts - *greengirl613*, *thegeminigirl*, *fng2u, oceanview_hi, ...🤭🤭🤭*


----------



## Joe Garfield

Jesus. I just bought 3 tubes from Fng2u.


----------



## cddc

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am still learning about buying tubes on eBay. How come this Menifer has a 100% rating? I initially thought that the rating from buyers has got to be a good indicator of trustworthiness, but suspected there is something up because almost all of them have 100 or 99.x%. It can't be like Amazon fake reviews, these are actual buyers and two negatives would quickly sink the percentage. So how do they do it?




That's something I'm quite curious to know indeed!

So many people got ripped off by his 3 or 4 times overpriced or fraudulent tubes, yet no one found it out and gave a negative feedback....that's really a miracle 

But I am sure someday it will, eventually!


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Dogmatrix said:


> Simple really when they get negative feedback they open a new account in a new name



Wait, I am talking about sellers with 99.5% or 100% ratings *and* feedback scores from 100+ customers. They are all like that, it seems, they are not at 100% and new members and with just 3-4 reviews. Understanding that there are many honest, good sellers out there, there must be something that some bad apples do to remove negative reviews? For example, the Menifer account discussed above has 100% on the strength of a ton of reviews.


----------



## cddc

Some seller do have the ability to remove negative feedbacks!

I once left a negative feedback on some seller for his untruthful description about the tube, but months later I found he became 100% positive feedbacked again!

So I called eBay several times to complain about it, but it seems to me that eBay was on his side (he must know someone in eBay, I guess) and ignored my complaints!


----------



## zeroduke

cddc said:


> I agree with you, *Menifee_Audio*, aka *BangyBang* is a notorious scammer, often sells fraudulent tubes.
> 
> The tubes in question do look like Tung Sol 7236 from afar, but if you look closely, there are differences. 1. TS 7236 has metal base, while his only has plastic base; 2. TS 7236 has *rectangular* box plates, while his has not. It's definitely not rectangular box plates with his tubes, there are some irregular angles on his box plates.
> 
> Due to his reputation, there is a chance that these are not 7236/6080/421A tubes and you can't use them at all on your OTL amp.




Did he use the Old Guy Radiola user name (or something like this) previously? Or I am wrong?


----------



## Joe Garfield

eBay has some arrangement with their favorite sellers. They can get to a point where there's a waiting period before posting a negative review, and they make every effort to make sure you don't leave on. I bought tubes last year from someone who I read all over the 'net was a great seller because of the 10,000 good reviews. It turns out I got a crappy tube and was harassed when I requested the return.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Menifee or whatever his name is just made me an offer to buy his Bendix tube!  Only wants $530!  What a deal!

I got burned by Greengirl in the past.  Are we thinking they are the same person?


----------



## cddc

zeroduke said:


> Did he use the Old Guy Radiola user name (or something like this) previously? Or I am wrong?




Yes, BangyBang used to be Old Guy Radiola before he switched user id, IIRC.


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Menifee or whatever his name is just made me an offer to buy his Bendix tube!  Only wants $530!  What a deal!
> 
> I got burned by Greengirl in the past.  Are we thinking they are the same person?




I'm pretty sure Manifee and some other tube vendors are tracking this thread and other tube discussion threads closely. So he spiked up his Bendix price to $530 after reading our discussions on it pages earlier.

Sometimes I feel like we should stop discussing tubes in these tube threads to avoid paying more, because if you are a tube roller, you'd possibly want to try every appropriate tube already; and if you are not, normally the stock tubes will sound pretty good to you.


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Menifee or whatever his name is just made me an offer to buy his Bendix tube!  Only wants $530!  What a deal!
> 
> I got burned by Greengirl in the past.  Are we thinking they are the same person?



No, they are not the same person.

Greengirl613 is located in New Jersey, while Menifee/BangyBang is located in Winchester, California.


----------



## bcowen

zeroduke said:


> Did he use the Old Guy Radiola user name (or something like this) previously? Or I am wrong?



There was a good bit of discussion on the Lyr Tube Rollers thread a while back on this, but nothing definitive as to the exact relationship. What _does_ look to be certain is that the site (and most, if not all the tube inventory) was previously Old_Guy_Radiola (OGR).  Some said that OGR retired and sold off the inventory to whoever BangyBang is, and some said that OGR is still behind it and just changed the name due to people catching on to his deception and fraud.  I don't know which is true, all I know is with all the fakes and blindingly obvious counterfeits that have been promoted on both sites that I'll never buy a tube from BangyBang or Menifee....and there's another site he has but I can't find the name of it right off (if I run across it I'll post it).


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am still learning about buying tubes on eBay. How come this Menifer has a 100% rating? I initially thought that the rating from buyers has got to be a good indicator of trustworthiness, but suspected there is something up because almost all of them have 100 or 99.x%. It can't be like Amazon fake reviews, these are actual buyers and two negatives would quickly sink the percentage. So how do they do it?



1) Most buyers don't have tube testers. If the tube doesn't sound good (to them), they might just chalk it up to, well, the tube doesn't sound good. They would have no idea that it didn't sound good because it has low GM/emission or is totally worn out.
2) Most buyers wouldn't know a GE from a GEC. If it has '12AU7' printed on it, that's enough and that's all they really care about.
3) Ebay protects its sellers. Sellers are the revenue stream. Ebay doesn't make a dime off of buyers. I would imagine a high volume seller would have no problem getting a negative feedback removed if he refunded the buyer and then told Ebay he had rectified the situation. 
4) There are no expert tube agencies or regulators out there. If BangyBang says a tube is a GEC and I say it's a GE, who can pronounce judgement one way or the other? My word against his with no arbiter to settle it, legally or otherwise
5) If you're making a 2000% profit on everything you sell, so what if you have to refund 10% or 20% of the sales you make if someone complains (either to just shut them up or keep them from carrying it further)?  It only slightly tones down the laughter on the way to the bank.


----------



## Joe Garfield

I just intentionally turned my back on a 421A ending now on eBay. This has to stop! At least for like a week or two...  

Don't I get a chip or something? "My name is Joe and I'm a tuboholic. I just made it 24 hours without buying a lightbulb."


----------



## Joe Garfield

And Bcowen ^^ pretty much nailed the eBay deal...


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Joe Garfield said:


> I just intentionally turned my back on a 421A ending now on eBay. This has to stop! At least for like a week or two...
> 
> Don't I get a chip or something? "My name is Joe and I'm a tuboholic. I just made it 24 hours without buying a lightbulb."


What did you turn down?  The 421a with the broken glass in it?  I was tempted to buy that...it sold for too much IMO given that it had broken glass in the tube.


----------



## bcowen

Joe Garfield said:


> And Bcowen ^^ pretty much nailed the eBay deal...



Wasn't me. I'm innocent.  I already said I wasn't buying any more tubes.  Well, except for the TS 5998 another HeadFi'er graciously offered me for a nice price.  After *that* I'm done.  Totally.  Goin' cold turkey. I've made it for an _entire_ calendar week before, and I'm sure I can do it again. Even without a chip. Unless, of course, another 421A pops up for $100.


----------



## Joe Garfield

PsilocybinCube said:


> What did you turn down?  The 421a with the broken glass in it?  I was tempted to buy that...it sold for too much IMO given that it had broken glass in the tube.



No, not that one. The other one.

j/k I didn’t really look at it. I just got the message it was ending soon and stared blankly at my computer screen, questioning reality and the difference between 421A and 7236.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Whaaat!? Something's happening! I just might get to see my Cetron 7236's before the end of the year.


----------



## attmci

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am still learning about buying tubes on eBay. How come this Menifer has a 100% rating? I initially thought that the rating from buyers has got to be a good indicator of trustworthiness, but suspected there is something up because almost all of them have 100 or 99.x%. It can't be like Amazon fake reviews, these are actual buyers and two negatives would quickly sink the percentage. So how do they do it?


Avoid these guys:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/over-priced-tubes.920115/


----------



## GDuss

A question for those of you who have experience with the 6AS7GA...  do they run as hot as a 6080?  I have both standard 6AS7G's and 6080's, and the latter tubes run way hotter.  The 6AS7G is much cooler, but is that still true when it is fitted into the straight glass and labeled as a GA?


----------



## Tom-s (Aug 30, 2020)

The 6AS7G and 6080 both consume 2.5 amps (+-) on their 6.3V heaters. Because of the larger glass surface area, the 6AS7G will be much cooler to the touch. The 5998 only consumes 2.4 amps and could be even cooler. Don't know exactly as i don't have equipement to measure this. To the touch it's about the same as 6AS7 i'd say.
The 6AS7GA has a smaller surface area, so will run hotter IME. It sounds quite good for a *cough*.

The discussion on the last few pages on 421A vs 5998 led me to test a bunch and enjoy them again (apart from the one that went to ground).
It had been about four years since i last listened to a type 5998 tube in my Bottlehead Crack.

Here's the one that went to ground with some friend's from the 50's and 60's. Stripped for the occasion and now on display.
Picture also shows how i store most of my 9 pin tubes. Box-less they take up little space and are easily kept in stackable storage boxes.


----------



## GDuss

Tom-s said:


> The 6AS7G and 6080 both consume 2.5 amps (+-) on their 6.3V heaters. Because of the larger glass surface area, the 6AS7G will be much cooler to the touch. The 5998 only consumes 2.4 amps and could be even cooler. Don't know exactly as i don't have equipement to measure this. To the touch it's about the same as 6AS7 i'd say.
> The 6AS7GA has a smaller surface area, so will run hotter IME. It sounds quite good for a *cough*.



Good points, although the 6080 is not only hotter to the touch, the entire top of the amp (the base where the sockets are) gets hotter when running 6080's.  I typically only use socket savers with 6080's, and that's primarily to lift them up off the top of the amp to keep everything cooler (Is this necessary?  Probably not, but it makes me feel better   ). Even using socket savers, the top of the amp gets hotter with 6080's than running 6AS7G's or 5998's without using socket savers. This could still be due to the larger bottles on the latter tubes and their larger surface area dispersing heat differently, as you noted.


----------



## cddc

I've never measured the temperature from 6080/6AS7G/5998 tubes, but if you feel 6080 is much hotter on your amp, I believe it's a good idea to use socket savers in between your 6080 tubes and your amp. This way less heat will get into your amp chassis, which is good for the health of your amp.


----------



## cddc

Tom-s said:


> The 6AS7G and 6080 both consume 2.5 amps (+-) on their 6.3V heaters. Because of the larger glass surface area, the 6AS7G will be much cooler to the touch. The 5998 only consumes 2.4 amps and could be even cooler. Don't know exactly as i don't have equipement to measure this. To the touch it's about the same as 6AS7 i'd say.
> The 6AS7GA has a smaller surface area, so will run hotter IME. It sounds quite good for a *cough*.
> 
> The discussion on the last few pages on 421A vs 5998 led me to test a bunch and enjoy them again (apart from the one that went to ground).
> ...



Tom, not sure if you can estimate the distance from the 5998 grid to the 5998 plates, since the glass is broken and you can now have a better view than us.

I always wondered why 5998/421A tubes are prone to arcing, is it because their grids are too close to their plates? It is a great pity for such good tubes.


----------



## LoryWiv

cddc said:


> I've never measured the temperature from 6080/6AS7G/5998 tubes, but if you feel 6080 is much hotter on your amp, I believe it's a good idea to use socket savers in between your 6080 tubes and your amp. This way less heat will get into your amp chassis, which is good for the health of your amp.


Can you recommend a good quality / reasonably priced socket saver for 6080, accessible to US buyers? Thanks for any suggestions!


----------



## Tom-s

LoryWiv said:


> Can you recommend a good quality / reasonably priced socket saver for 6080, accessible to US buyers? Thanks for any suggestions!


Best contact @Deyan for this. His quality is the best for a reasonable price.


----------



## cddc

LoryWiv said:


> Can you recommend a good quality / reasonably priced socket saver for 6080, accessible to US buyers? Thanks for any suggestions!




See Tom's recommendation


----------



## bcowen

Tom-s said:


> Best contact @Deyan for this. His quality is the best for a reasonable price.



+1 on that.


----------



## fuzzroffe

A little off-topic here, but does anyone know the B+ voltage of the DV336? I've got a few tubes and components left over so I thought I might build a sort-of clone of it  I found the schematic for the amp, it says 150V but it doesn't include the power supply and I have a suspicion it might be a little higher...


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> A little off-topic here, but does anyone know the B+ voltage of the DV336? I've got a few tubes and components left over so I thought I might build a sort-of clone of it  I found the schematic for the amp, it says 150V but it doesn't include the power supply and I have a suspicion it might be a little higher...



You might check the thread below starting at post #2852.  @Absoltuion has taken a bunch of readings, but I'm not sure about the B+.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-191#post-15514441


----------



## fuzzroffe

bcowen said:


> You might check the thread below starting at post #2852.  @Absoltuion has taken a bunch of readings, but I'm not sure about the B+.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dar...erolling-partii.348833/page-191#post-15514441


Great, thanks! That had the filter cap values as well, I've been looking for those  Looks like it's 142V on the last filter cap before the output tube, a little lower than I thought, but that means my power transformer should be just fine


----------



## gibosi

I am surprised it is that low as well. In a different amp, a Glenn OTL, B+ is 240VDC.  And again, in the Glenn OTL, it can be found by measuring the voltage between pin 2 of the 6AS7 and ground. I use the headphone jack outer shell for ground. This is the true B+ voltage after the chokes and filter capacitors.

But this may not hold true for a DV336...


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> There was a good bit of discussion on the Lyr Tube Rollers thread a while back on this, but nothing definitive as to the exact relationship. What _does_ look to be certain is that the site (and most, if not all the tube inventory) was previously Old_Guy_Radiola (OGR).  Some said that OGR retired and sold off the inventory to whoever BangyBang is, and some said that OGR is still behind it and just changed the name due to people catching on to his deception and fraud.  I don't know which is true, all I know is with all the fakes and blindingly obvious counterfeits that have been promoted on both sites that I'll never buy a tube from BangyBang or Menifee....and there's another site he has but I can't find the name of it right off (if I run across it I'll post it).


Someone here purchased those bangbangbang 7236 tubes. 

The guy has 1266, wa33, and all kind of expensive toys so $$ is not a problem. 

That also explained why the bangbangbangbang still keep going and going.


----------



## attmci

Tom-s said:


> The 6AS7G and 6080 both consume 2.5 amps (+-) on their 6.3V heaters. Because of the larger glass surface area, the 6AS7G will be much cooler to the touch. The 5998 only consumes 2.4 amps and could be even cooler. Don't know exactly as i don't have equipement to measure this. To the touch it's about the same as 6AS7 i'd say.
> The 6AS7GA has a smaller surface area, so will run hotter IME. It sounds quite good for a *cough*.
> 
> The discussion on the last few pages on 421A vs 5998 led me to test a bunch and enjoy them again (apart from the one that went to ground).
> ...


Wow, you just made yourself a 421A (clear-top 5998). JK.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> I am surprised it is that low as well. In a different amp, a Glenn OTL, B+ is 240VDC.  And again, in the Glenn OTL, it can be found by measuring the voltage between pin 2 of the 6AS7 and ground. I use the headphone jack outer shell for ground. This is the true B+ voltage after the chokes and filter capacitors.
> 
> But this may not hold true for a DV336...




Ken, you are not kidding us, right? I can't believe B+ is so high in GOTL. 

The maximum rating for 6080/6AS7G tubes is 250VDC, IIRC, so GOTL is almost running 6080/6AS7G tubes to their limits. I think it will be too hard for the 6080/6AS7G tubes and will shorten their life span.

But tubes might sound good when running them at their limits, who knows....


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Someone here purchased those bangbangbang 7236 tubes.
> 
> The guy has 1266, wa33, and all kind of expensive toys so $$ is not a problem.
> 
> That also explained why the bangbangbangbang still keep going and going.




That means we are not Menifee / BangyBang's target clientele.

Their target clientele are those guys who are rich (and silly 🤔) so that they don't care about paying multiples of market prices from scammers like Menifee / BangyBang / Wage_High_Audio / ...

That's the way how those scammers survive.... 😵


----------



## fuzzroffe (Sep 2, 2020)

cddc said:


> Ken, you are not kidding us, right? I can't believe B+ is so high in GOTL.
> 
> The maximum rating for 6080/6AS7G tubes is 250VDC, IIRC, so GOTL is almost running 6080/6AS7G tubes to their limits. I think it will be too hard for the 6080/6AS7G tubes and will shorten their life span.
> 
> But tubes might sound good when running them at their limits, who knows....


Yeah, it’s 250V max. plate voltage for 6AS7, but that's with the cathode voltage (wild guess, around 80 volts in that amp) subtracted from the B+. For example, I'm using a 6AS7 as a pass tube in a regulated power supply with 350V raw B+, but with 310V at the cathode, the plate voltage is only 40V so it can last almost forever at that point.


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> Ken, you are not kidding us, right? I can't believe B+ is so high in GOTL.
> 
> The maximum rating for 6080/6AS7G tubes is 250VDC, IIRC, so GOTL is almost running 6080/6AS7G tubes to their limits. I think it will be too hard for the 6080/6AS7G tubes and will shorten their life span.
> 
> But tubes might sound good when running them at their limits, who knows....



Glenn has been building amps for a very long time. And I, for one, am not qualified to second guess his design decisions. I can say that I have had a Glenn OTL for over 5 years and all my 6080/6AS7G type tubes are still fine. Further, to my knowledge, no one else in the Glenn community has reported that one or more of their output tubes have failed prematurely. But there have been reports of these tubes failing catastrophically when dropped on the floor. lol


----------



## Bonddam

I might of been had just bought Tung sol 7236 But the base is plastic. See if I can return these being I just learned they only come in metal base.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Yayy, they finally got here! 2 months waiting


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Someone here purchased those bangbangbang 7236 tubes.
> 
> The guy has 1266, wa33, and all kind of expensive toys so $$ is not a problem.
> 
> That also explained why the bangbangbangbang still keep going and going.



How do you know it was someone here?


----------



## attmci (Sep 2, 2020)

bcowen said:


> How do you know it was someone here?


Someone bumped a 10-year-old 7236 thread to the top last night.

Many years ago, there are a lot of WIWI tubes on the eastBay:

http://www.wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8539


----------



## Bonddam (Sep 2, 2020)

attmci said:


> Someone here purchased those bangbangbang 7236 tubes.
> 
> The guy has 1266, wa33, and all kind of expensive toys so $$ is not a problem.
> 
> That also explained why the bangbangbangbang still keep going and going.


I’m not rich just have a good job installing security systems. New to tubes never knew bangbangbang was not as glowing as his eBay record. Anyways I’ll most likely be returning them as the real 7236 is metal base not plastic.


----------



## fuzzroffe

A couple of small differences between my Cetron and Tung-Sol 7236s. Cetron has ring getters and small fins, Tung-Sol has square getters and larger fins. That's probably just manufacturing differences over the years, otherwise they look completely identical. Just an observation, they sound pretty much the same


----------



## attmci

fuzzroffe said:


> A couple of small differences between my Cetron and Tung-Sol 7236s. Cetron has ring getters and small fins, Tung-Sol has square getters and larger fins. That's probably just manufacturing differences over the years, otherwise they look completely identical. Just an observation, they sound pretty much the same


Should not make any difference in SQ. Generally, the tubes with square-ring getters are produced earlier than those with the O-ring getters.


----------



## fuzzroffe (Sep 4, 2020)

attmci said:


> Should not make any difference in SQ. Generally, the tubes with square-ring getters are produced earlier than those with the O-ring getters.


Yeah, there's probably 20 years between these two tubes  And I can't tell any difference in sound.


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Sep 4, 2020)

This showed up today at my door, well packed and safe. It looks to be in great condition, although the box has clearly not aged well. Speaking of the getters discussed above... I don't see any on the 6520. Am I missing them or is their function achieved differently in the 6520?


----------



## cddc

The getters are hiding under the heavy chrome on top of the tube, you can possibly see it using a flashlight.

The tube is in great condition


----------



## Toby Joe

Hi everyone, I’m currently using my toroidal tube headphone amp with a SPC cable for my HFM HEX-V2 and I could use a lot of input for tube rolling. The tubes I have now are Chinese and I could use advice on different tubes and input on if the tubes I just purchased today are “good enough?”

The tubes I purchased today are all old NIB and NOS:


For input: Russian 6N3P-E Military Grade tubes.
For output: GE-6AS7GA tubes.
For output: GE-6AS7GA JAN tubes.
For output: RCA 6AS7G tubes.
For output: GE 6AS7G tubes. I’ve read GE didn’t make these tubes and that they are rebranded RCA or Tung Sol tubes.
So, am I on the right track and did I do it right, or wrong? What other tubes should I consider? Thanks for your input……………


----------



## adeadcrab

Tung-Sol / Cetron 7236
Bendix 6080WB
Phillips / Mullard 6080
Tung-Sol 5998

Russian 6H13C are still good and much cheaper than the above! I have a few pairs of them along with the GE 6AS7GA.


----------



## Toby Joe

adeadcrab said:


> Tung-Sol / Cetron 7236
> Bendix 6080WB
> Phillips / Mullard 6080
> Tung-Sol 5998
> ...


Thank you for your help.

I looked at all of the tubes you recommended and I made a few NOS purchases:


I picked-up a bunch of the NOS 6H13C tubes – which are really inexpensive and surprisingly somewhat hard to find.
A Philips/Mullard 6080 is really expensive, but I did pick-up a few PhilipsECG-6080WC JAN tubes which are NIB and NOS.
I have the GE 6AS7GA coming and I was wondering what your thoughts are on this tube?

Does anybody here know if the Russian 6N3P-E Military Grade tubes I purchased are all I’ll need for pre-amp tubes? Should I be looking for something else?

 I will say, even though all I’ve done is buy so far, this tube rolling is a lot of fun.


----------



## Toby Joe

I thought of two more questions:


For my GE 6AS7G tube, which I’ve read GE didn’t make this tube and that it was made by RCA or Tung Sol, how can I tell if this tube is an RCA or a Tung Sol?
A lot of the tubes I purchased are mentioned by the sellers to not push/pull on the glass, which is understandable as these tubes are 50+ years old, but how do I pull them and set them? Is there a tool I should be looking for? I searched eBay for “tube puller,” but nothing listed.
 Thanks………………..


----------



## bcowen

Toby Joe said:


> Thank you for your help.
> 
> I looked at all of the tubes you recommended and I made a few NOS purchases:
> 
> ...



Hate to rain on the parade, but Mullard and NOS European-made Philips are entirely different animals from the Philips ECG.  Nothing to say you won't like the Philips ECG, but the great majority of anything with that ECG suffix is, well, not very good.  Suggest you don't buy any more of those until you get a chance to hear the ones you've purchased.

The 6N3P's are all over the map depending on what factory they came from and when they were manufactured.  The triple-mica Fotons are especially nice. Reflektors are good but nothing special sonically. The 6N3P was made at several different factories and I obviously haven't heard them all, so there could be some gems out there that I'm not aware of.  One nice thing with most of these (regardless of factory) is that they are very quiet and last a long time, so can be a good choice in a preamp application.

As far as the GE's, I'm not a GE lover so I'll leave it at that.


----------



## bcowen

Toby Joe said:


> I thought of two more questions:
> 
> 
> For my GE 6AS7G tube, which I’ve read GE didn’t make this tube and that it was made by RCA or Tung Sol, how can I tell if this tube is an RCA or a Tung Sol?
> ...



If there are little dots etched into the glass as shown below, it was _definitely_ made by GE. If there aren't any etched dots, it probably wasn't made by GE, but not a guarantee. Hope that distinction makes some sense. If the etched dots are absent, the easiest way to determine who made it is to look on Ebay for good pictures of RCA's, Tung Sols, etc. and compare the internal construction details, or post some pictures of what you have here. Takes a good bit of time and learnin' to know what to look for, and the situation isn't helped by the fact that RCA likely made tubes that have TungSol branding and vice versa. 

As far as pulling on the glass, if you can insert/remove the tube by its base that's the best way. If you can't, then pull on the glass.  If the base is loose (or becomes loose), it can be re-glued.  The best tool is your fingers.


----------



## Toby Joe

bcowen said:


> If there are little dots etched into the glass as shown below, it was _definitely_ made by GE. If there aren't any etched dots, it probably wasn't made by GE, but not a guarantee. Hope that distinction makes some sense. If the etched dots are absent, the easiest way to determine who made it is to look on Ebay for good pictures of RCA's, Tung Sols, etc. and compare the internal construction details, or post some pictures of what you have here. Takes a good bit of time and learnin' to know what to look for, and the situation isn't helped by the fact that RCA likely made tubes that have TungSol branding and vice versa.
> 
> As far as pulling on the glass, if you can insert/remove the tube by its base that's the best way. If you can't, then pull on the glass.  If the base is loose (or becomes loose), it can be re-glued.  The best tool is your fingers.


Coooooooool, thanks.

I feel like I’m on the right track now, instead of buying tubes blindly, and that I’ve actually done pretty well so far. If I read both posters correctly, my purchases are: Good, 50/50 as some like and some do not, and Maybe Not so Good:

Good:


Pre-amp: Russian 6N3P-E Military Grade tubes.
For output: RCA 6AS7G tubes.
For output: GE 6AS7G tubes. I’ve read GE didn’t make these tubes and that they are rebranded RCA or Tung Sol tubes.
For output: Russian 6H13C tubes.
50/50 as some like and some do not:


For output: GE 6AS7GA tubes.
For output: GE 6AS7GA JAN tubes.
Maybe Not so Good:


PhilipsECG-6080WC JAN tubes which are NIB and NOS.
I actually think I’ve done pretty well, especially with both of your help. At least now I can say I own a 6080 tube. Plus, both of the 6080 tubes were pretty inexpensive. : )

I do not know what “triple Mica Foton” is, and the 6N3P-E listing I purchased from does not mention this, and mine were $1.39 each with shipping, and the “triple Mica” from a different seller are $3.73 each with shipping, so I decided to take your advice and I purchased a bunch of the 6N3P-E triple Mica tubes that are NIB and NOS. I also emailed my first 6N3P-E seller and asked if the 6N3P-E Military Grade tubes I purchased are triple mica?

Thanks for the input on “no tools needed to remove or install tubes” as I was wondering about this. What glue can be used if the tube becomes loose from the base? Also, I thought a tube was shot when the seal is broken as the tube is a vacuum and air entering destroys the tube as oxygen and heat from the tube melts the tube.

Thanks for the input on identifying a GE tube and I now know what to look for.



 Thanks…………………….


----------



## kkrazik2008

Toby Joe said:


> Coooooooool, thanks.
> 
> I feel like I’m on the right track now, instead of buying tubes blindly, and that I’ve actually done pretty well so far. If I read both posters correctly, my purchases are: Good, 50/50 as some like and some do not, and Maybe Not so Good:
> 
> ...


On the subject of the GE 6AS7GA, I recently purchased a used OTL and it came with this tube as the power driver. It was utter crap, noisy and was very sensitive to wireless devices even within 6-9ft. I bought a few Tung Sol 7236, and a Chatham 6080.  Noise disappeared. Scanning through the pages on this thread and the GE power tubes seem to be the least desired tube upgrade. I’m sure there are others, but the GE is brought up often.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> The best tool is your fingers.



Sure.  Now you say that AFTER you sold me this as a 'tube removal tool'.


----------



## bcowen

Toby Joe said:


> Coooooooool, thanks.
> 
> I feel like I’m on the right track now, instead of buying tubes blindly, and that I’ve actually done pretty well so far. If I read both posters correctly, my purchases are: Good, 50/50 as some like and some do not, and Maybe Not so Good:
> 
> ...



First and most important thing about tubes:  there is no right or wrong. The final sound of any tube is dependent on the component it's used in, other tubes in play with it, your personal preferences, what 'phones you're using, etc etc.  Whatever _you_ like, well, you like and what others may think can be suggestions or general consensus only and never invalidate what appeals to you. 

Below is the triple mica Foton.  The arrows point to the 2 bottom micas, and the third is obscured up top inside the getter flash. You won't find these for a couple dollars each these days...more like $50 if you can find them at all.





In a tube like a 6080, the base is a separate piece from the glass envelope. It is glued on, and if the base comes loose from the glass it does not (necessarily) affect the glass seal and vacuum in the tube.  In a 9-pin tube like your 6N3P, there is no separate base, so if the pins come loose from the glass the chances are that you will lose all the vacuum and the tube will be a goner.  I like the Rhino glue below. It's a cyanoacrylate (like Krazy Glue), but it's much thicker and stronger. Placing 3 or 4 drops where the base meets the glass and letting it sit for a couple hours works well.  I've never had a base come loose again (at least yet) after re-gluing in this manner.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Sure.  Now you say that AFTER you sold me this as a 'tube removal tool'.



ROFL!  It's obvious you got your tube types mixed up.


----------



## gibosi

Toby Joe said:


> Thank you for your help.
> 
> I looked at all of the tubes you recommended and I made a few NOS purchases:
> 
> ...



Philips N.V. purchased Sylvania's vacuum tube division in 1981, and shortly thereafter, the manufacture of vacuum tubes at the Sylvania factory in Emporium, Pennsylvania ceased in 1988. In that short time, Philips made few if any production changes and so your Philips ECG 6080 is essentially a Sylvania 6080. However, there is some speculation that tube quality, for example, noise and microphonics, declined from 1986 until the end of production, in 1988. That said, I don't think the Sylvania 6080 is a bad tube, but it is not one of my favorites.


----------



## Toby Joe

This thread is awesome!!!

Thanks everyone.

I’m posting my two 6N3P-E eBay purchase links as the pictures are worth a 1,000 words. The first purchase ($13.90) picture looks like the picture provided of a triple mica with two mica showing and maybe one under the getter (top silver coating). The second purchase is different and looks like all three mica showing. Also, the second listing raised the pricing up a little.

Links:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-RARE-...673004?hash=item3fe88077ac:g:m2cAAOSwgvVdNWua



https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-pcs-6N3P...914268?hash=item2f2bf49d5c:g:VW0AAOSwgyxWXa4f


----------



## fuzzroffe

bcowen said:


> In a tube like a 6080, the base is a separate piece from the glass envelope. It is glued on, and if the base comes loose from the glass it does not (necessarily) affect the glass seal and vacuum in the tube.  In a 9-pin tube like your 6N3P, there is no separate base, so if the pins come loose from the glass the chances are that you will lose all the vacuum and the tube will be a goner.  I like the Rhino glue below. It's a cyanoacrylate (like Krazy Glue), but it's much thicker and stronger. Placing 3 or 4 drops where the base meets the glass and letting it sit for a couple hours works well.  I've never had a base come loose again (at least yet) after re-gluing in this manner.



Does the glue hold up well with the temperature? And do you use any accelerator with it? The base on my RCA 6AS7 is a little bit loose, and I have some thick CA glue so I thought I might try it.


----------



## gibosi

fuzzroffe said:


> Does the glue hold up well with the temperature? And do you use any accelerator with it? The base on my RCA 6AS7 is a little bit loose, and I have some thick CA glue so I thought I might try it.



I use hard finger nail polish (I think the brand is "Hard as Nails") to re-glue bases. What I like about it is that if I ever need to re-base a tube, I can use regular finger nail polish remover to dissolve it. If you use something like Rhino glue, you will never be able to take the base off. But then, I would guess that most folks here would never want to do this. lol  

Anyway, I tend to baby my tubes and I have not had one come loose again. This one was re-glued 5 years ago and is still fine.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Looks like most CA glues will take 200C which is the max. bulb temperature of the 6AS7, so I'll give it a try. Worst case (I hope) is that the glue cracks and the tube still works


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 6, 2020)

Toby Joe said:


> I thought of two more questions:
> 
> 
> For my GE 6AS7G tube, which I’ve read GE didn’t make this tube and that it was made by RCA or Tung Sol, how can I tell if this tube is an RCA or a Tung Sol?
> ...


The tubes have a base that you can gently rock back and forth until they loosen and can be removed.


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> Does the glue hold up well with the temperature? And do you use any accelerator with it? The base on my RCA 6AS7 is a little bit loose, and I have some thick CA glue so I thought I might try it.



Has for me. No accelerator, just the Rhino by itself.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> I use hard finger nail polish (I think the brand is "Hard as Nails") to re-glue bases. What I like about it is that if I ever need to re-base a tube, I can use regular finger nail polish remover to dissolve it. If you use something like Rhino glue, you will never be able to take the base off. But then, I would guess that most folks here would never want to do this. lol
> 
> Anyway, I tend to baby my tubes and I have not had one come loose again. This one was re-glued 5 years ago and is still fine.



ROFL! 

Googling high-temp rubber bands now...


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> Looks like most CA glues will take 200C which is the max. bulb temperature of the 6AS7, so I'll give it a try. Worst case (I hope) is that the glue cracks and the tube still works



Won't hurt a thing to try it. I usually clean (as best possible) the junction between the glass and the base with some alcohol and a Q-tip, let it dry, and then put a small drop of the Rhino at the 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, and 9:00 positions. It seeps down into the joint a little, and I let it dry for a couple hours just to be sure. Normally a CA glue should dry almost instantly, but then it's not being used as intended like this either...


----------



## bcowen

Toby Joe said:


> This thread is awesome!!!
> 
> Thanks everyone.
> 
> ...



Both those listings are Reflektors.  Good tubes to be sure, just not quite the magic of the Fotons to my ears. Here's a listing for some Fotons, although they are 1980's production and I haven't heard any of those (mine are all 1950's production).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N3P-I-6N3...990678?hash=item3427245056:g:XMUAAOSwwMddhKqP


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!
> 
> Googling high-temp rubber bands now...



If you find some high-temp rubber bands please send me the link! lol  

I give the finger nail polish 24 hours to totally cure and the rubber bands keep everything aligned until then. But the base on this Cossor 53KU was so loose when it arrived, that I used these rubber bands to hold everything together. And then I put the banded-tube in the socket and turned the amp on to make sure no connections were broken. But it was only for a few minutes.


----------



## bcowen

Just in case someone was wanting to boost some tubes, I've found the answer for you.  Always glad to help.    

I must, however, sheepishly admit with all due embarrassment that I have no clue what a tube booster is...or does.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-tub...rsOtherItemsV2&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219


----------



## dpump

IMHO the best 6N3P is the triple mica and they are, as far as I know, always labeled 6N3P-DR. They sell for about $8 + each and they seem to be dwindling in supply. Plenty of 6N3P-E types but they aren't nearly as well made as the 6N3P-DR not do they sound as good to me.


----------



## fuzzroffe

bcowen said:


> Just in case someone was wanting to boost some tubes, I've found the answer for you.  Always glad to help.
> 
> I must, however, sheepishly admit with all due embarrassment that I have no clue what a tube booster is...or does.


It's for guitar, to boost the guitar signal and get more overdrive/distortion from the preamp


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> It's for guitar, to boost the guitar signal and get more overdrive/distortion from the preamp



Aha. Learn something new every day. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Toby Joe

Does anybody know if a date code on a GE tube of 5-52 means the tube was made in May 1952?

Is there a “date code codex” for GE, RCA, Svetlana tubes and what are they?

Thanks………..


----------



## bcowen

Toby Joe said:


> Does anybody know if a date code on a GE tube of 5-52 means the tube was made in May 1952?
> 
> Is there a “date code codex” for GE, RCA, Svetlana tubes and what are they?
> 
> Thanks………..



December of 1955 if it was actually made by GE.  Does it have the dots etched in the glass?

https://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=230932


----------



## Toby Joe (Sep 7, 2020)

bcowen said:


> December of 1955 if it was actually made by GE.  Does it have the dots etched in the glass?
> 
> https://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=230932


I saw it on eBay and the Seller said the tube is marked 5-52 and that the tube was from 1945.  I figured 5-52 was May 1952, but shows what I know.  Thanks.....


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Added this to my small collection. I am done on the 5998, 421A, 6AS7G, 6520 front. OK, maybe if I find another mint 6520... but I am not even going to open any ads for this family of tubes for 12 months.


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Added this to my small collection. I am done on the 5998, 421A, 6AS7G, 6520 front. OK, maybe if I find another mint 6520... but I am not even going to open any ads for this family of tubes for 12 months.



Surely you don't need four of those, so why don't you send a pair to me?


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> Just in case someone was wanting to boost some tubes, I've found the answer for you.  Always glad to help.
> 
> I must, however, sheepishly admit with all due embarrassment that I have no clue what a tube booster is...or does.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-tube-booster-handmade-12au7-Effector/203080401039?_trkparms=aid=1110012&algo=SPLICE.SOIPOST&ao=1&asc=225074&meid=b258948343124f6786c877b54f437745&pid=100008&rk=7&rkt=12&sd=203096653257&itm=203080401039&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=PromotedSellersOtherItemsV2&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219


Hah, I was going to mention the same thing that the other person above me said. I wonder how my axe would sound through one though, . Been meaning to get a new guitar for awhile, but I keep pouring money into my audio setup, haha.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am done on the 5998, 421A, 6AS7G, 6520 front.



Me too. I'm not buying any more tubes.


----------



## sennfan83261

bcowen said:


> Me too. I'm not buying any more tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> A couple of small differences between my Cetron and Tung-Sol 7236s. Cetron has ring getters and small fins, Tung-Sol has square getters and larger fins. That's probably just manufacturing differences over the years, otherwise they look completely identical. Just an observation, they sound pretty much the same


Digging the sound of the Tung Sol 7236 with the RCA Radiotron 6F8G combo, so much that I'm searching for another set of these, RCA I can find..Tung SOl..hard to find.. Cetron might be the ticket


----------



## Velozity

JKDJedi said:


> Digging the sound of the Tung Sol 7236 with the RCA Radiotron 6F8G combo, so much that I'm searching for another set of these, RCA I can find..Tung SOl..hard to find.. Cetron might be the ticket




TS 7236 not so hard to find my friend.  Look no further than my signature...


----------



## fuzzroffe

JKDJedi said:


> Digging the sound of the Tung Sol 7236 with the RCA Radiotron 6F8G combo, so much that I'm searching for another set of these, RCA I can find..Tung SOl..hard to find.. Cetron might be the ticket



I got my Tung-Sol from vacuumtubes.net just recently, it was $50 though. They also had Sylvania 7236 so I got one of those too. To my ears, the Cetron is identical to the Tung-Sol. I have to listen more to the Sylvania for direct comparisons, but it sounds very nice.


----------



## adeadcrab

Loving the Cetron 7236 in my amp lately. IIRC it's just a Tung-Sol rebrand. The Bendix 6080WB is a little on the mellow sound in comparison but they're both great options.


----------



## fuzzroffe

They're pretty much the same tubes. My understanding is that Richardson Electronics bought all the tooling from Tung-Sol and continued manufacturing them under the Cetron brand. Apparently they still sell Cetron tubes, but it's mostly kilowatt-RF stuff.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Digging the sound of the Tung Sol 7236 with the RCA Radiotron 6F8G combo, so much that I'm searching for another set of these, RCA I can find..Tung SOl..hard to find.. Cetron might be the ticket


FWIW, I like the Cetron in the Incubus a little better than the Tung Sol.  To be fair though, I only have one Tung Sol, and while it still measures strong it has lower GM on both triodes than the Cetron.  The difference shouldn't be noticeable sonically....or is it?  Hmmmmmm....


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> FWIW, I like the Cetron in the Incubus a little better than the Tung Sol.  To be fair though, I only have one Tung Sol, and while it still measures strong it has lower GM on both triodes than the Cetron.  The difference shouldn't be noticeable sonically....or is it?  Hmmmmmm....



Tubes manufactured in the same factory but at different times often sound different. And these tubes were manufactured over several decades. During that time, new materials, new techniques and technologies, and feedback from the field led to changes on the factory floor. So it is not surprising that the newer Cetron sounds different than the older Tung-Sol and the even older Chatham. Which is better? Trust your ears.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Tubes manufactured in the same factory but at different times often sound different. And these tubes were manufactured over several decades. During that time, new materials, new techniques and technologies, and feedback from the field led to changes on the factory floor. So it is not surprising that the newer Cetron sounds different than the older Tung-Sol and the even older Chatham. Which is better? Trust your ears.



The plate color and construction, support rods, and micas are identical between the two. Only differences are the taller bottle of the TS (perhaps reduced in height with the later Cetron to cut cost) and the TS has double D-getters versus double O-getters in the Cetron (typical of later versus earlier manufacture).  I'm assuming the '6342' is the date code on the TungSol for 1963 (?) and the Cetron is a 1983 (at least that's what's on the box).


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> The plate color and construction, support rods, and micas are identical between the two. Only differences are the taller bottle of the TS (perhaps reduced in height with the later Cetron to cut cost) and the TS has double D-getters versus double O-getters in the Cetron (typical of later versus earlier manufacture).  I'm assuming the '6342' is the date code on the TungSol for 1963 (?) and the Cetron is a 1983 (at least that's what's on the box).



Again, it is very likely that over 20 years significant changes were made. And some can be seen with the naked eye, for example, the height of the bottle and the shape of the getter holders, and there could well be other changes that cannot be seen with the naked eye, for example, changes in the composition of the cathodes and the chemical coatings applied, changes in the metallic composition and thickness of the grid wires and the number of turns, etc. Even very small construction differences could explain why the Cetron and Tung-Sol sound different. But of course I don't know... lol


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Again, it is very likely that over 20 years significant changes were made. And some can be seen with the naked eye, for example, the height of the bottle and the shape of the getter holders, and there could well be other changes that cannot be seen with the naked eye, for example, changes in the composition of the cathodes and the chemical coatings applied, changes in the metallic composition and thickness of the grid wires and the number of turns, etc. Even very small construction differences could explain why the Cetron and Tung-Sol sound different. But of course I don't know... lol



Noted, and I certainly didn't mean to slight your previous comments....sorry.  Perhaps the opportunity to post tube porn got the better of me.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Noted, and I certainly didn't mean to slight your previous comments....sorry.  Perhaps the opportunity to post tube porn got the better of me.



And as I too am a tube porn addict, I totally understand. lol


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> FWIW, I like the Cetron in the Incubus a little better than the Tung Sol.  To be fair though, I only have one Tung Sol, and while it still measures strong it has lower GM on both triodes than the Cetron.  The difference shouldn't be noticeable sonically....or is it?  Hmmmmmm....


I believe you have about 20 TS  7236. No?


----------



## attmci (Sep 10, 2020)

gibosi said:


> And as I too am a tube porn addict, I totally understand. lol


Addition last a lifetime.  I start worry about what to do if all my WE 422A die......


You guys may need a good rectifier tube in the near future: 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dub...mparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread.694525/


----------



## sennfan83261

gibosi said:


> And as I too am a tube porn addict, I totally understand. lol


That spread with the 421A's was just too much.


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> That spread with the 421A's was just too much.


Wait till you see his Bendix collection.....SHWING!!


----------



## gibosi

sennfan83261 said:


> That spread with the 421A's was just too much.



Yes, when I saw the picture that @CaptainFantastic posted with FOUR 421A's I couldn't control myself and I had to ask him to send me a pair!


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Wait till you see his Bendix collection.....SHWING!!



Whose Bendix collection? I have only three pairs.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> Yes, when I saw the picture that @CaptainFantastic posted with FOUR 421A's I couldn't control myself and I had to ask him to send me a pair!



I am standing firm that the 421A quartet acquisition is it for my collection in this area for some time. I now have 5 421As, 7 5998s, 1 6520, and 2 TS 6AS7Gs, all NOS or very strong. I am rationalizing this seemingly insane stock (based on my limited needs) by saying that, had I not gone on the tube path, I would have probably spent more on a top of the line solid state setup. I am excusing the spending spree telling myself that these will only become harder to find as time passes and at some point I might want to try the WA2 or another OTL amp that uses multiple tubes.

Explaining the situation this way, it all sounds very reasonable and normal, right?


----------



## fuzzroffe

Yeah, you're practically saving money here!


----------



## Toby Joe

Hi everyone, I could use your input as I just received “4 NIB 6AS7G tubes” and I think all 4 are used as all four have “caked on film” and a dust ring on the base where the tube meets. It looks like someone took a dry rag and tried to wipe the dust off and ended up wiping off most of the 6AS7 G decals as well. Three tubes are RCA and one is GE (RCA).

Now, NIB should be dust free as the tubes have been stored in a tube box, right?

Also, the 6AS7 G decals should all be visible on NIB tubes, right?

Tubes don’t get dusty and have caked on film when NIB, right?

I could use your input as I think these need to be returned.

 Thanks………………


----------



## gibosi

Toby Joe said:


> Hi everyone, I could use your input as I just received “4 NIB 6AS7G tubes” and I think all 4 are used as all four have “caked on film” and a dust ring on the base where the tube meets. It looks like someone took a dry rag and tried to wipe the dust off and ended up wiping off most of the 6AS7 G decals as well. Three tubes are RCA and one is GE (RCA).
> 
> Now, NIB should be dust free as the tubes have been stored in a tube box, right?
> 
> ...



It depends...  When you are talking about components that were manufactured 50 or 60 years ago, how they were stored is a very important variable. If they were stored in a closed cabinet in an environmentally controlled room, then yes, they should be almost dust-free.  But if they were stored in an open cardboard box full of old electronic parts in an attic, or a basement or a garage, they will likely be dirty and dusty. And I suspect that this is the way that most old tubes have been stored.

In the end, NIB should mean that they have never been used and that they are in their original box. But I think it is a bit unrealistic to expect that a 50 year old tube in it's original box is going to look "brand new". Fifty years is a long time....


----------



## LoryWiv

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am standing firm that the 421A quartet acquisition is it for my collection in this area for some time. I now have 5 421As, 7 5998s, 1 6520, and 2 TS 6AS7Gs, all NOS or very strong. I am rationalizing this seemingly insane stock (based on my limited needs) by saying that, had I not gone on the tube path, I would have probably spent more on a top of the line solid state setup. I am excusing the spending spree telling myself that these will only become harder to find as time passes and at some point I might want to try the WA2 or another OTL amp that uses multiple tubes.
> 
> Explaining the situation this way, it all sounds very reasonable and normal, right?


Yes, very prudent and reasonable. In fact you are a "roll" model.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> Yes, when I saw the picture that @CaptainFantastic posted with FOUR 421A's I couldn't control myself and I had to ask him to send me a pair!



I can't send you the pair , but what I can offer is a class photo before it all goes away into very safe keeping. The newest and very last additions to the group are the two 5998 Tung Sol Arcturus in the top right. They are marked as 5998s on the other side, but I wanted to capture the Arcturus imprint on the glass a bit. (They were on their way already when I said I am stopping.)


----------



## SHIMACM

CaptainFantastic said:


> I can't send you the pair , but what I can offer is a class photo before it all goes away into very safe keeping. The newest and very last additions to the group are the two 5998 Tung Sol Arcturus in the top right. They are marked as 5998s on the other side, but I wanted to capture the Arcturus imprint on the glass a bit. (They were on their way already when I said I am stopping.)



Friend how much tube equal !!! You have no GEC, Mullard 6080 out there?


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> I can't send you the pair , but what I can offer is a class photo before it all goes away into very safe keeping. The newest and very last additions to the group are the two 5998 Tung Sol Arcturus in the top right. They are marked as 5998s on the other side, but I wanted to capture the Arcturus imprint on the glass a bit. (They were on their way already when I said I am stopping.)



You don't think they would be safe with me?? lol 

You have a very nice collection. Enjoy.


----------



## gibosi

SHIMACM said:


> Friend how much tube equal !!! You have no GEC, Mullard 6080 out there?



My guess is about $100.


----------



## LoryWiv

CaptainFantastic said:


> I can't send you the pair , but what I can offer is a class photo before it all goes away into very safe keeping. The newest and very last additions to the group are the two 5998 Tung Sol Arcturus in the top right. They are marked as 5998s on the other side, but I wanted to capture the Arcturus imprint on the glass a bit. (They were on their way already when I said I am stopping.)


I think I saw this on a recent episode of "Hoarders - Vacuum Tube Edition"! Seriosuly, beautiful collection well-curated, enjoy!


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> I believe you have about 20 TS  7236. No?



20?  _Twenty_? What do you take me for, a hoarder? I only have 10.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Addition last a lifetime.  I start worry about what to do if all my WE 422A die......
> 
> 
> You guys may need a good rectifier tube in the near future:
> ...



I'm fortunate that my amp sounds great with cheap rectifier tubes.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GZ37-CV378...035804?hash=item4463511adc:g:sJwAAOSwoLpfJzSo


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> I would have probably spent more on a top of the line solid state setup.



Probably 3x as much, and it still wouldn't have sounded as good.  Not that I'm biased or anything.  



CaptainFantastic said:


> Explaining the situation this way, it all sounds very reasonable and normal, right?



Perfectly.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> I can't send you the pair , but what I can offer is a class photo before it all goes away into very safe keeping. The newest and very last additions to the group are the two 5998 Tung Sol Arcturus in the top right. They are marked as 5998s on the other side, but I wanted to capture the Arcturus imprint on the glass a bit. (They were on their way already when I said I am stopping.)



I just drooled all over my laptop and shorted out the keyboard.  Thanks a lot.         (awesome collection, BTW)


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> I'm fortunate that my amp sounds great with cheap rectifier tubes.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GZ37-CV378...035804?hash=item4463511adc:g:sJwAAOSwoLpfJzSo



I don't know if would call rectifiers costing in excess of $100 "cheap". 

This is my idea of "cheap" 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Radio-Tube-Vintage-Untested-Old-Stock-RCA-5U4-GB-in-RCA-Box/174431888791


----------



## adeadcrab (Sep 11, 2020)

Since we're apparently flexing our OCD tendencies...





Russian 6H13C on the left with one noisy RCA 6AS7G, stacks of 6AS7GA, Cetron 7236, 6N13PT, on the right is Bendix 6080WB in toilet roll protection and another pair still in its bubble wrap packaging.

Top drawer has a similar collection of 6SJ7 driver tubes.

Next on my radar are:
Mullard / Phillips / Sylvania / GE 6080
Raytheon 6080WB
More 7236 (  )
More 6AS7GA for that warm tube flavour


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> I don't know if would call rectifiers costing in excess of $100 "cheap".
> 
> This is my idea of "cheap"
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Radio-Tube-Vintage-Untested-Old-Stock-RCA-5U4-GB-in-RCA-Box/174431888791



Everything is relative, I suppose.  Compared to a 422A, a Mullard GZ37 is almost free.  Probably compared to your 53KU's too.


----------



## bcowen

adeadcrab said:


> Since we're apparently flexing our OCD tendencies...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice stash!  Only one other comment:  

https://tubedepot.com/t/other-stuff/tube-boxes


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> Nice stash!  Only one other comment:
> 
> https://tubedepot.com/t/other-stuff/tube-boxes



Why the need for boxes? I see 6 empty TP rolls there.  Assuming there was equivalent hoarding at the beginning of the pandemic, there will be more where those came from.


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> Why the need for boxes? I see 6 empty TP rolls there.  Assuming there was equivalent hoarding at the beginning of the pandemic, there will be more where those came from.



ROFL!  Good point.  But putting a Bendix in a toilet paper roll just seems so...so...degrading.  TP rolls should be utilized for GE tubes only.


----------



## adeadcrab

TP rolls are for the 6080 tubes - the 6H13C could use some actual boxes - I used to just keep them in DT880 bags..


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  Good point.  But putting a Bendix in a toilet paper roll just seems so...so...degrading.  TP rolls should be utilized for GE tubes only.



JAN Philips 6080's from the 1980's go in TP rolls too, but only in the rolls of TP they use in public restrooms (the "how do they make paper this thin" kind).


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I'm fortunate that my amp sounds great with cheap rectifier tubes.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GZ37-CV378...035804?hash=item4463511adc:g:sJwAAOSwoLpfJzSo


Ken has tons of rectifier tubes. He can educate us why we need to pay more for better SQ. LOL


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> 20?  _Twenty_? What do you take me for, a hoarder? I only have 10.


10 pairs = 20 single  Just admit it.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> Ken has tons of rectifier tubes. He can educate us why we need to pay more for better SQ. LOL



Yes, I probably have over 100 rectifiers, but no, I am a cheapskate and cannot explain why you should pay more. lol

In truth, I'm retired and living on less and I don't have a WE 422A or a GEC U52. I can't afford these tubes. But I have found other rectifiers that provide very good SQ for much less.

But again, this is a 6AS7 hoarding thread and I want to see more pictures of output tube collections, more tube porn!  lol


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> 10 pairs = 20 single  Just admit it.



But I only use 1 at a time. 7236's that is.  Rectumfiers require pairs.  But I don't have 20 of those, or even 10 pairs.  Yet.


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> JAN Philips 6080's from the 1980's go in TP rolls too, but only in the rolls of TP they use in public restrooms (the "how do they make paper this thin" kind).



LOL!  It could be argued that the best storage scheme for JAN Philips is the local landfill.  GE's are just bland and boring. JAN Philips are so nasty they make cheap Class D solid state amps sound comparatively good less nasty.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Ken has tons of rectifier tubes. He can educate us why we need to pay more for better SQ. LOL




Funny thing (and if I've already mentioned this here please forgive the repetition):  replacing some cheap Chinese rectifiers with NOS RCA's (5AR4's) back when I got my first tube amp is what started my whole tube rolling addiction. Made no sense to me logically -- I mean a rectifier simply converts AC to DC, and as long as it's operating correctly how can a NOS tube (or even just a different brand) make a difference?  But damnit. If those RCA's hadn't made a difference, I'd likely have lumped the whole NOS tube thing into the same basket as $10k power cords, magic dots, and Bedini CD de-magnetizers.  Unfortunately (for my wallet) the difference was profound, and so it began....


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> But again, this is a 6AS7 hoarding thread and I want to see more pictures of output tube collections, more tube porn!  lol



How's this?  My first, and thanks to a cool and awesome fellow HeadFi'er that either felt sorry for me not having one or just felt sorry for me having to be me.   Tests great, and gets its first listen tomorrow.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 12, 2020)

Tube porn #1,223.  This one from another ultra-cool, super-awesome fellow HeadFi'er.  The print is hard to see, but it's a steel plate Bendix 6080WB. 

My sabbatical on tube acquisition would appear to be a slow motion train wreck. Perhaps I should do a sabbatical on sabbaticals.


----------



## attmci (Sep 12, 2020)

gibosi said:


> Yes, I probably have over 100 rectifiers, but no, I am a cheapskate and cannot explain why you should pay more. lol
> 
> In truth, I'm retired and living on less and I don't have a WE 422A or a GEC U52. I can't afford these tubes. But I have found other rectifiers that provide very good SQ for much less.
> 
> But again, this is a 6AS7 hoarding thread and I want to see more pictures of output tube collections, more tube porn!  lol


Attached is a short review of the rectifier tubes for audio.

In the article, Eric described
"And finally, the only standard 5-volt versions, the muchworshipped
and overpriced 274A-B (1931-35). The only
difference between the A and B was the octal base on the
latter. We must comment chat the present street price of
$1000-up for an NOS 274B is ridiculous, given that it is
basically a well-made 5U4. All the other small WE types
saw very little use outside the specific equipment they
were designed for. WE's higher production costs must
have been responsible for this situation. The only small
rectifiers WE introduced after WWII were the 9-pin
miniature 412A and the rare 422A (both 1948), the latter
another 5U4 version which appears to be a modified
421A/5998 dual triode minus the grids. _The 5998 was_
_used in regulated power supplies as the pass device, as well
as a cathode follower in early computer core memories--it
is very similar to the 6AS7G. It was manufactured by_
_Tung-Sol under contract to WE, along with 422A_s."

The file is too big to upload. This is the issue:


----------



## Toby Joe

Thanks for the help on the tubes I just received and I’m glad I decided to post my questions here first before I contacted the seller.  : )

I pulled out one of the RCA 6AS7G tubes and decided to give it a try (with my HFM HEXV2 headphones, with SPC cable, and toroidal headphone amp) after an hour of warm-up. I’ve not rolled my pre-amp tubes yet as they’ve not arrived yet. I started listening with the RCA tube and WOW, what a difference from the stock Chinese tubes as everything sounds so different – shocking actually. The sound is so different that I actually thought, “Wait, what’s going on and what song is this?” The changes are not small.

With just over an hour of burn-in, my initial impressions are that the RCA tube is bigger, smoother, and multi-layered, but less dynamic. I really like how the multi-layered sound seems to come out of nowhere, which can be pretty eerie at times. The bass is considerably bigger, but less detailed. I wouldn’t say BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, but I would say it’s a small boom. I really like the mids and I think the RCA provides a much more of an “I’m there feel than the Chinese tube.” I would say nice and flowing mids, with a little light in the detail to provide a smooth and big presentation. I’m listening right now and it’s a very nice and flowing experience that is very enjoyable. Big sound. The treble also seems to flow and seems to be there and extend when needed and gone when not needed.

The multi-layers this tube provides are phenomenal and so enjoyable, WOW. Smooth and not hard hitting. Flowing and big. The Chinese tube has layers of close, mid, and far, but the RCA tube has those layers as well as layers in between. A very fun and smooth tube.

I remember a few months ago when I received my tube amp and I switched from my THX to this tube amp as my tube amp sounds better. Add in the dramatic changes of a simple tube roll and my tube amp is even better now. I’m definitely a tube guy and I’m looking forward to rolling my pre-amp tubes when they arrive.

Thanks again for the help………..


----------



## CaptainFantastic

attmci said:


> Attached is a short review of the rectifier tubes for audio.



Thank you very much for this. I could read this type of tube historical info all day.

Any idea how much a 5998 tube used to cost when they were in production?


----------



## sennfan83261 (Sep 12, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thank you very much for this. I could read this type of tube historical info all day.
> 
> Any idea how much a 5998 tube used to cost when they were in production?


Well, from a print ad in November 1950, a 6AS7G (unknown brand) cost $6.75 back then, which would be $72.80 today. In the following year, the same ad listed the 6AS7G for $4.98, which would be $50 today. So price fluctuated, but I doubt I would have started tube rolling if a NOS RCA 6AS7G set me back >$50.

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics/50s/Electronics-1950-11.pdf

EDIT: A WE 421A could be had for $6.75 back in 1957, which is $62.44 today. Also a WE 300B could be had for $7.50 back in the same year too, which is $69.37 today (see pg. 357 in the magazine below).

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics/50s/Electronics-1957-12.pdf

So are these prices worth putting together a time machine?


----------



## gibosi

More tube porn 

I have three versions of the Bendix 6080WB, each with slightly different construction

The two on the left have three ceramic spacers, while the one on the right has two ceramic spacers and the top spacer is mica.

Further, the one on the left with three ceramic spacers has graphite plates that are slightly different than the two on the right. The edges on either side of the slot are beveled while the edges on either side of the slot of the other two are sharp right angles.

I should note that all three sound the same to my ears.


----------



## gibosi

Toby Joe said:


> Thanks for the help on the tubes I just received and I’m glad I decided to post my questions here first before I contacted the seller.  : )
> 
> I pulled out one of the RCA 6AS7G tubes and decided to give it a try (with my HFM HEXV2 headphones, with SPC cable, and toroidal headphone amp) after an hour of warm-up. I’ve not rolled my pre-amp tubes yet as they’ve not arrived yet. I started listening with the RCA tube and WOW, what a difference from the stock Chinese tubes as everything sounds so different – shocking actually. The sound is so different that I actually thought, “Wait, what’s going on and what song is this?” The changes are not small.
> 
> ...



It's great that you are enjoying your new tube amp. And fortunately, there more 6AS7G and 6080 for you to try.

Have fun!


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> How's this?  My first, and thanks to a cool and awesome fellow HeadFi'er that either felt sorry for me not having one or just felt sorry for me having to be me.   Tests great, and gets its first listen tomorrow.




Cool, glad to see you finally get a handle on a 5998 

How do 5998 and 421A compare on your tester with the same 5998 settings? What are the measurements?


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> Attached is a short review of the rectifier tubes for audio.
> 
> In the article, the Eric described
> "And finally, the only standard 5-volt versions, the muchworshipped
> ...




So Eric confirmed that 5998 and WE 422A were manufactured by Tung Sol under contract. I think WE 421A is no exception, as it looks exactly the same by appearance (422A is just a modified 421A/5998 minus the grids, according to the article).


----------



## Toby Joe

Toby Joe said:


> Thanks for the help on the tubes I just received and I’m glad I decided to post my questions here first before I contacted the seller.  : )
> 
> I pulled out one of the RCA 6AS7G tubes and decided to give it a try (with my HFM HEXV2 headphones, with SPC cable, and toroidal headphone amp) after an hour of warm-up. I’ve not rolled my pre-amp tubes yet as they’ve not arrived yet. I started listening with the RCA tube and WOW, what a difference from the stock Chinese tubes as everything sounds so different – shocking actually. The sound is so different that I actually thought, “Wait, what’s going on and what song is this?” The changes are not small.
> 
> ...


Right after my previous post, my pre-amp tubes unexpectedly arrived and were due for delivery in two days, so I need to add to my earlier post as the NOS pre-amp tubes I just received changed everything a lot. Long story made short, the slight bass boom and lack of detail was the stock Chinese pre-amp tubes and not the NOS RCA 6AS7G. It’s a GIGO scenario.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Cool, glad to see you finally get a handle on a 5998
> 
> How do 5998 and 421A compare on your tester with the same 5998 settings? What are the measurements?



Dang it.  Forgot about doing that test.  The 421A is playing now, so I'll test them both later tonight or in the morning.  I have an asbestos tongue (coffee conditioning), but fingers not so much.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> More tube porn
> 
> I have three versions of the Bendix 6080WB, each with slightly different construction
> 
> ...



Mmmmm....nice pic.    I have a Tung Sol and a Chatham with the graphite plates. Both are identical internally as far as I can tell, but neither have the slotted plates -- both are solid. I can't tell any difference between them either, although I haven't given either one extensive listening.


----------



## gibosi (Sep 12, 2020)

cddc said:


> So Eric confirmed that 5998 and WE 422A were manufactured by Tung Sol under contract. I think WE 421A is no exception, as it looks exactly the same by appearance (422A is just a modified 421A/5998 minus the grids, according to the article).



I doubt that Tung Sol manufactured the 421A and 422A for Western Electric. Western Electric introduced the 421A in 1948. In August, 1950, Western Electric sent a formal request to the Radio-Television Manufacturer's Association (RTMA) requesting that a "Special Purpose code designation" be assigned to their 421A. Within a week, RTMA assigned the Special Purpose code, 5998. It is important to remember that prior to the mid-1950's, when Tung Sol acquired Chatham, Tung Sol did not manufacture the 6AS7G, 6080 or any other similar tubes. However, Chatham did. But I have seen no evidence to suggest that Chatham had developed and marketed a tube similar to the 421A in the late 1940's. Further, you will see Western Electric 421A manufactured as late as the 1980's. By that time, Tung Sol as a vacuum tube manufacturer was long gone. And if Chatham actually developed that design, and those "domino" plates, why didn't they or Tung Sol release a rectifier similar to the 422A?

My theory is that, yes, there was a contract between Chatham (later Tung Sol) and Western Electric. Western Electric sold 421A "cages" to Chatham. A cage is a subassembly that includes the top and bottom mica spacers, the plates and the support rods. And each company then used their own cathodes and grids, which helps to explain why the specifications were slightly different. And further, Western Electric licensed the 5998 designation to Chatham.

Anyway, this is my current thinking. And I fully expect that others will continue to think differently.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Mmmmm....nice pic.    I have a Tung Sol and a Chatham with the graphite plates. Both are identical internally as far as I can tell, but neither have the slotted plates -- both are solid. I can't tell any difference between them either, although I haven't given either one extensive listening.



I also have a pair sporting the Chatham brand, graphite plates, no slots, but I haven't listened to them in years....


----------



## bcowen

sennfan83261 said:


> Well, from a print ad in November 1950, a 6AS7G (unknown brand) cost $6.75 back then, which would be $72.80 today. In the following year, the same ad listed the 6AS7G for $4.98, which would be $50 today. So price fluctuated, but I doubt I would have started tube rolling if a NOS RCA 6AS7G set me back >$50.
> 
> https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics/50s/Electronics-1950-11.pdf
> 
> ...



Well, not for the 421A.  The 300B's?  Oh hell yes.  NOS 1950's 300B's get $5k plus these days for singles. I've seen matched pairs advertised on Ebay for $15k and gone quickly. Who knows if that's what the buyer paid (probably offered/accepted less), but still.  Let's go back to 1955 and load up a semi trailer full of 'em and quit worrying about the 401k.  LOL! 

I have an unused (other than testing) factory matched quad of '58's locked up in the tube vault, guarded by a couple tanks, proximity mortars, and heat-sensing machine guns.   Have nothing that I can use them in right now, and I also forgot the security password.    My Jota speaker amp uses 300BXLS tubes (a high current variant) and the WE's would fry quickly at the voltages those are run at. At some point I'll either get a suitable 300B amp that can use them...or sell them and pay cash for a new Lexus.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> I doubt that Tung Sol manufactured the 421A and 422A for Western Electric. Western Electric introduced the 421A in 1948. In August, 1950, Western Electric sent a formal request to the Radio-Television Manufacturer's Association (RTMA) requesting that a "Special Purpose code designation" be assigned to their 421A. Within a week, RTMA assigned the Special Purpose code, 5998. It is important to remember that prior to the mid-1950's, when Tung Sol acquired Chatham, Tung Sol did not manufacture the 6AS7G, 6080 or any other similar tubes. However, Chatham did. But I have seen no evidence to suggest that Chatham had developed and marketed a tube similar to the 421A in the late 1940's. Further, you will see Western Electric 421A manufactured as late as the 1980's. By that time, Tung Sol as a vacuum tube manufacturer was long gone. And if Chatham actually developed that design, and those "domino" plates, why didn't they or Tung Sol release a rectifier similar to the 422A?
> 
> My theory is that, yes, there was a contract between Chatham (later Tung Sol) and Western Electric. Western Electric sold 421A "cages" to Chatham. A cage is a subassembly that includes the top and bottom mica spacers, the plates and the support rods. And each company then used their own cathodes and grids, which helps to explain why the specifications were slightly different. And further, Western Electric licensed the 5998 designation to Chatham.
> 
> Anyway, this is my current thinking. And I fully expect that others will continue to think differently.



Good thinking! 

It is indeed a very interesting topic, possibly one of the biggest unresolved mysteries in tube history - whether WE 421A = 5998 and whether both of them were manufactured by Tung Sol / Chatham?

Most posts and articles that I've read (including the Eric article just mentioned by @attmci ) conclude that Western Electric designed / developed the 421A / 5998 tubes, but it is Tung Sol / Chatham who actually manufactured both 5998 and WE 421A under contract to WE, and WE 421A is just a cherry-picked 5998. I think it is a quite reasonable conclusion, as WE 421A and 5998 do look identical in construction and appearance. Some small variations in getter shape and position can be explained by different batches / production years. Most WE 421A's have clear top, but some TS 5998's do have clear top as well.

One possible explanation (that I mentioned in another thread https://www.head-fi.org/threads/visual-evidence-tung-sol-5998-western-electric-421.506133/) to why WE 421A was still in production after Tung Sol was acquired by other companies and ceased to exist, is that the companies that acquired Tung Sol inherited the contract obligations when they acquired Tung Sol and continued to manufacture WE 421A tubes for Western Electric.

As to the "cages", I don't think it is possible for Tung Sol / Chatham to add their own cathode and grid assemblies to WE supplied "cages", after watching the Mullard factory video:


According to the video, a "cage" is defined as the top mica and the bottom mica and everything in between, including plates, grid assembly, and cathode assembly. Once the top mica is placed on top of plates/grid assembly/cathode assembly and fixed in place by folding the tabs, a "cage" is completed, and everything in between is fixed in place, it is no longer possible to insert a grid or a cathode or anything in between the top mica and bottom mica, unless of course someone has to unfold these bidding tabs above the top mica and dismantle the completed "cage" in order to insert a grid or cathode assembly, which is extremely impossible.

Another mystery is whether WE 421 and 5998 sound the same? Well, people's opinions also differ here, some think they sound the same, some don't. Please read here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/visual-evidence-tung-sol-5998-western-electric-421.506133/

I believe no one has mentioned checking the transconductances on WE 421A and TS 5998 in any of the debates before, that's why I am asking our tester expert @bcowen to check their transconductance measurements under the same testing settings. If WE 421A and TS 5998 are indeed the same tube, they should have similar measured transconductances.

It is a on-going debate, and a very interesting topic to 6AS7G/5998/421A addicts like us. I respect all folks' inputs here in hope that we can resolve one of the biggest mysteries in tube history...LOL


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Good thinking!
> 
> It is indeed a very interesting topic, possibly one of the biggest unresolved mysteries in tube history - whether WE 421A = 5998 and whether both of them were manufactured by Tung Sol / Chatham?
> 
> ...




Well, I'm not going to be much help here.  Tested both tubes, and all the testing tells me is that the 421A has quite a lot of use on it and the 5998 is unused (or very close to it).  With the same tester settings, I'm getting GM's of 11,000 and 12,500 on the 421A, and dead on 20,000 on both triodes of the 5998.  This is using the higher bias setting that's in the 1971 dated roll chart -- the 1968 supplement shows a lower bias setting, but using that kicks the GM up substantially and gives close to a 25,000 GM on the 5998 which is improbable if not impossible. As well, the 421A has some discoloration inside the glass which is sure indication of the prior usage, and the 5998 is pristine in all regards.  Those readings were on the Hickok, so I gave both tubes a spin in the Weston. No disparity between the supplement and the roll chart for it, and I get 10,000 and 12,000 on the 421A, and 19,500 on both triodes of the 5998.  I calibrated the Hickok a couple months ago but the poor Weston hasn't seen much love for over a year, so I need to check calibration on it before I put much faith in the readings. It's really the better tester for these tubes as it's capable of higher plate voltage than the Hickok, so it's now on the never ending to-do list.  What's surprising though is the ~20k GM on the 5998...maybe it was made for Tung Sol by Western Electric.  LOL!!!


----------



## cddc (Sep 13, 2020)

LOL....now the measurements really make things more complicated.

I was thinking the other way around, WE 421A getting 20K-ish uMhos and TS 5998 getting 15K-ish uMhos, or similarly at 15K-ish / 20K-ish uMhos, because on paper WE 421A does have higher transconductance of 20K uMhos (vs TS 5998 @ 15K uMhos), but that could be due to possible higher testing plate and grid voltages when they measured WE 421A in factory. If 421A and 5998 are tested under the same plate and grid voltages, they should have similar transconductances if they are indeed the same tube.

We possibly need more samples, but thanks very much for your efforts to measure their tranconductances


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Well, I'm not going to be much help here.  Tested both tubes, and all the testing tells me is that the 421A has quite a lot of use on it and the 5998 is unused (or very close to it).  With the same tester settings, I'm getting GM's of 11,000 and 12,500 on the 421A, and dead on 20,000 on both triodes of the 5998.  This is using the higher bias setting that's in the 1971 dated roll chart -- the 1968 supplement shows a lower bias setting, but using that kicks the GM up substantially and gives close to a 25,000 GM on the 5998 which is improbable if not impossible. As well, the 421A has some discoloration inside the glass which is sure indication of the prior usage, and the 5998 is pristine in all regards.  Those readings were on the Hickok, so I gave both tubes a spin in the Weston. No disparity between the supplement and the roll chart for it, and I get 10,000 and 12,000 on the 421A, and 19,500 on both triodes of the 5998.  I calibrated the Hickok a couple months ago but the poor Weston hasn't seen much love for over a year, so I need to check calibration on it before I put much faith in the readings. It's really the better tester for these tubes as it's capable of higher plate voltage than the Hickok, so it's now on the never ending to-do list.  What's surprising though is the ~20k GM on the 5998...maybe it was made for Tung Sol by Western Electric.  LOL!!!



I think you are on to something! The 5998 was made for Tung Sol by Western Electric. And the 421A was made for Western Electric by Tung Sol!


----------



## Bonddam

I bought a tube that has plastic base etched on top with 7236 silk screened on the base with 3213999 Tung Sol made In USA. Sounds dark. Been searching the net trying to find these no luck. Any ideas?


----------



## gibosi

Bonddam said:


> I bought a tube that has plastic base etched on top with 7236 silk screened on the base with 3213999 Tung Sol made In USA. Sounds dark. Been searching the net trying to find these no luck. Any ideas?



I, for one, had never seen a 7236 with a black plastic base until a recent eBay listing, only metal. That said, it is certainly possible that it is genuine. After all, the composition of the base and the color of the base has no affect on the sound whatsoever. But since I don't have one to compare to my metal-based 7236, I can't say....


----------



## Bonddam

if your amp takes one tube I'll send one 7236 test I have 5. I bought the ebay listing. only thing I could think of was a special order or counterfeit(think if doing this they would copy it to a T),


----------



## cddc

Bonddam said:


> I bought a tube that has plastic base etched on top with 7236 silk screened on the base with 3213999 Tung Sol made In USA. Sounds dark. Been searching the net trying to find these no luck. Any ideas?




Same as @gibosi I have never seen a Tung Sol 7236 coming with a plastic base. They always came with metal bases.

Looking at the photo you just posted, I saw more differences from a "normal" TS 7236 other than the base. The top mica in your version has spikes, while "normal" TS 7236 has pure round top mica without any spikes. The "normal" TS 7236 has rectangular box plates, while the plates on your version is not rectangular.

Check out the photos on "normal" TS 7236 here:  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-15855940


----------



## cddc

Bonddam said:


> if your amp takes one tube I'll send one 7236 test I have 5. I bought the ebay listing. only thing I could think of was a special order or counterfeit(think if doing this they would copy it to a T),




One head-fi member here is selling his two Tung Sol 7236 tubes, you can check them out here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/upd...es-for-gotl-lyr-3-iha-1-darkvoice-etc.927630/


I have no comments on the pricing, but these 2 are genuine Tung Sol 7236 tubes.


----------



## attmci (Sep 12, 2020)

cddc said:


> So Eric confirmed that 5998 and WE 422A were manufactured by Tung Sol under contract. I think WE 421A is no exception, as it looks exactly the same by appearance (422A is just a modified 421A/5998 minus the grids, according to the article).



I knew an eastBay seller who worked at WE before, however, he passed away some years ago. I hope someone who had worked at WE manufacture sites can help us to learn some history of the 421/422A.

I hate guessing games. I can only confirm the clear-top  Chatham  2399 sounds identical to or better than those 421As I have. They stay in my amp almost all the time.


----------



## attmci

cddc said:


> Good thinking!
> 
> It is indeed a very interesting topic, possibly one of the biggest unresolved mysteries in tube history - whether WE 421A = 5998 and whether both of them were manufactured by Tung Sol / Chatham?
> 
> ...



You have to supply him three NOS/NIB 5998, 421A, clear-top 5998/2399 for testing. LOL


----------



## Bonddam

it would be cool if these are real. If real then I’d like to know the story behind them.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Well, I'm not going to be much help here.  Tested both tubes, and all the testing tells me is that the 421A has quite a lot of use on it and the 5998 is unused (or very close to it).  With the same tester settings, I'm getting GM's of 11,000 and 12,500 on the 421A, and dead on 20,000 on both triodes of the 5998.  This is using the higher bias setting that's in the 1971 dated roll chart -- the 1968 supplement shows a lower bias setting, but using that kicks the GM up substantially and gives close to a 25,000 GM on the 5998 which is improbable if not impossible. As well, the 421A has some discoloration inside the glass which is sure indication of the prior usage, and the 5998 is pristine in all regards.  Those readings were on the Hickok, so I gave both tubes a spin in the Weston. No disparity between the supplement and the roll chart for it, and I get 10,000 and 12,000 on the 421A, and 19,500 on both triodes of the 5998.  I calibrated the Hickok a couple months ago but the poor Weston hasn't seen much love for over a year, so I need to check calibration on it before I put much faith in the readings. It's really the better tester for these tubes as it's capable of higher plate voltage than the Hickok, so it's now on the never ending to-do list.  What's surprising though is the ~20k GM on the 5998...maybe it was made for Tung Sol by Western Electric.  LOL!!!


Nice testing results. LOL


----------



## gibosi (Sep 12, 2020)

cddc said:


> Same as @gibosi I have never seen a Tung Sol 7236 coming with a plastic base. They always came with metal bases.
> 
> Looking at the photo you just posted, I saw more differences from a "normal" TS 7236 other than the base. The top mica in your version has spikes, while "normal" TS 7236 has pure round top mica without any spikes. The "normal" TS 7236 has rectangular box plates, while the plates on your version is not rectangular.
> 
> Check out the photos on "normal" TS 7236 here:  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-15855940



I see the same differences. But his tubes are dated 5906 and mine are dated 6502. It is certainly possible that over that 6 year period the shape of the plates and the top mica slightly changed. And his has rectangular getters whereas mine has halo getters. So there is certainly a decent chance that his are genuine.

@Bonddam. What is etched on top of your tube? On mine I see the date code "6502". And under that, an octagon with 7236 inside, and below the octagon, U.S.A 5. (oh, and my amp takes two or four of these tubes.)


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> You have to supply him three NOS/NIB 5998, 421A, clear-top 5998/2399 for testing. LOL



LOL....where is the guy who hoards lots of these 421A and 5998 tubes? 

I know just pages earlier we have a good candidate....


----------



## cddc (Sep 13, 2020)

gibosi said:


> I see the same differences. But his tubes are dated 5906 and mine are dated 6502. It is certainly possible that over that 6 year period the shape of the plates and the top mica slightly changed. And his has rectangular getters whereas mine has halo getters. So there is certainly a decent chance that his are genuine.
> 
> @Bonddam. What is etched on top of your tube? On mine I see the date code "6502". And under that, an octagon with 7236 inside, and below the octagon, U.S.A 5. (oh, and my amp takes two or four of these tubes.)




I agree with you, the ones with plastic bases could be genuine Tung Sol 7236's, after all we've seen these weird Bendix 6080 with metal plates,  pretty uncommon though.....

So I'd rather classify them as unusual Tung Sol 7236's (or possibly engineering samples) than usual older Tung Sol 7236's, because if they are just older TS 7236's we'd see them much more frequently. But obviously most people here have never seen these plastic base ones.


----------



## attmci (Sep 13, 2020)

Bonddam said:


> if your amp takes one tube I'll send one 7236 test I have 5. I bought the ebay listing. only thing I could think of was a special order or counterfeit(think if doing this they would copy it to a T),


Bangbangbang tube....................

I am pretty sure the guy replaced tube base/pins all the time.



*@Paladin79 can help if needed. *


----------



## Bonddam

gibosi said:


> I see the same differences. But his tubes are dated 5906 and mine are dated 6502. It is certainly possible that over that 6 year period the shape of the plates and the top mica slightly changed. And his has rectangular getters whereas mine has halo getters. So there is certainly a decent chance that his are genuine.
> 
> @Bonddam. What is etched on top of your tube? On mine I see the date code "6502". And under that, an octagon with 7236 inside, and below the octagon, U.S.A 5. (oh, and my amp takes two or four of these tubes.)


5644 7236 in octagon and number 5


----------



## Bonddam

Where is the website for counterfeit tubes? Is bangbangbang the place to go? How much does it cost to counterfeit a tube? seems like a lot of effort to only sell five. I could see China having their own sites that stay hidden from the western world. It only takes one to slip up. I will continue my hunt.


----------



## gibosi

Bonddam said:


> 5644 7236 in octagon and number 5



Your tubes were actually manufactured in 1956, week 44, about 9 years before mine. This could explain the construction differences we see. And it appears that they sat in a warehouse until 1959, when they were labeled, boxed and shipped out.

From what I have seen, I am inclined to believe that your tubes are genuine. So I encourage you to relax and enjoy them.


----------



## Ripper2860

Purchased a Tung-Sol 7236 metal base a couple of days ago and hope to have it soon.  Maybe these pics can assist in comparing the micanol base units.


----------



## Bonddam

gibosi said:


> Your tubes were actually manufactured in 1956, week 44, about 9 years before mine. This could explain the construction differences we see. And it appears that they sat in a warehouse until 1959, when they were labeled, boxed and shipped out.
> 
> From what I have seen, I am inclined to believe that your tubes are genuine. So I encourage you to relax and enjoy them.


This is a story I love history. I'm trying to a/b them against TS 5998 and Bendix 6080wb.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> I see the same differences. But his tubes are dated 5906 and mine are dated 6502. It is certainly possible that over that 6 year period the shape of the plates and the top mica slightly changed. And his has rectangular getters whereas mine has halo getters. So there is certainly a decent chance that his are genuine.
> 
> @Bonddam. What is etched on top of your tube? On mine I see the date code "6502". And under that, an octagon with 7236 inside, and below the octagon, U.S.A 5. (oh, and my amp takes two or four of these tubes.)




I used to think only Cetron 7236 tubes have double O-getters, and surprised to hear your Tung Sol 7236's from 1965 also have double O-getters.

My Tung Sol 7236's are from 1962, and they came with double D-getters. 

So I think sometime between 1962 and 1965, Tung Sol changed 7236 from double D-getters to double O-getters.


----------



## LoryWiv

I bought this TS 7236 pair a year ago on Etsy, seller claimed 1962 NOS and they do perform well, quiet and non-microphonic. But I find their signature a bit analytic. Yes, they excel at detail retrieval and instrument separation / stage but not as euphonic / organic / musical as my other powers. Still, do bring a lot to the party with a warm driver. I have a few more combo's to try but may ultimately sell them, too many others I haven't tried (WE421, Chatham / Bendix 6060) and not in a position to keep them all.


----------



## raindownthunda

bcowen said:


> Well, I'm not going to be much help here.  Tested both tubes, and all the testing tells me is that the 421A has quite a lot of use on it and the 5998 is unused (or very close to it).  With the same tester settings, I'm getting GM's of 11,000 and 12,500 on the 421A, and dead on 20,000 on both triodes of the 5998.  This is using the higher bias setting that's in the 1971 dated roll chart -- the 1968 supplement shows a lower bias setting, but using that kicks the GM up substantially and gives close to a 25,000 GM on the 5998 which is improbable if not impossible. As well, the 421A has some discoloration inside the glass which is sure indication of the prior usage, and the 5998 is pristine in all regards.  Those readings were on the Hickok, so I gave both tubes a spin in the Weston. No disparity between the supplement and the roll chart for it, and I get 10,000 and 12,000 on the 421A, and 19,500 on both triodes of the 5998.  I calibrated the Hickok a couple months ago but the poor Weston hasn't seen much love for over a year, so I need to check calibration on it before I put much faith in the readings. It's really the better tester for these tubes as it's capable of higher plate voltage than the Hickok, so it's now on the never ending to-do list.  What's surprising though is the ~20k GM on the 5998...maybe it was made for Tung Sol by Western Electric.  LOL!!!


Glad it arrived safe and tested well!! What about sound compared to 421A?


----------



## SHIMACM

Toby Joe said:


> Thanks for the help on the tubes I just received and I’m glad I decided to post my questions here first before I contacted the seller.  : )
> 
> I pulled out one of the RCA 6AS7G tubes and decided to give it a try (with my HFM HEXV2 headphones, with SPC cable, and toroidal headphone amp) after an hour of warm-up. I’ve not rolled my pre-amp tubes yet as they’ve not arrived yet. I started listening with the RCA tube and WOW, what a difference from the stock Chinese tubes as everything sounds so different – shocking actually. The sound is so different that I actually thought, “Wait, what’s going on and what song is this?” The changes are not small.
> 
> ...



Hello Friend! I had the same feeling when I changed the Chinese tube for RCA 6as7g. I still keep it in my collection. I felt the same feeling again when I upgraded to Chatham 6as7g, then to TS 5998 and then to Mullard 6080, respectively. Today I use the Mullard 6080 and Rca 6sn7gt vt231 gray glass combo more often. It's a wonderful combination on my T1 G1. Great separation of instruments, good sound stage (mainly in depth, where I clearly perceive the layers existing in the music), a heat in the middle that is chilling, and a great bass that, although not very accurate, fills the music of a lovely shape. The vocals then ...... my God! They sound wonderful, especially in songs where more than one voice is combined.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> LOL....now the measurements really make things more complicated.
> 
> I was thinking the other way around, WE 421A getting 20K-ish uMhos and TS 5998 getting 15K-ish uMhos, or similarly at 15K-ish / 20K-ish uMhos, because on paper WE 421A does have higher transconductance of 20K uMhos (vs TS 5998 @ 15K uMhos), but that could be due to possible higher testing plate and grid voltages when they measured WE 421A in factory. If 421A and 5998 are tested under the same plate and grid voltages, they should have similar transconductances if they are indeed the same tube.
> 
> We possibly need more samples, but thanks very much for your efforts to measure their tranconductances



Yeah, too bad I'm not able to compare apples to apples. I need a new (as in _unused_) 421A to be able to do a proper comparison.  If anyone has one they want to send me I'll PM my address.  LOL!!!


----------



## bcowen

raindownthunda said:


> Glad it arrived safe and tested well!! What about sound compared to 421A?



The 5998 tests beautifully to be sure, so many thanks!  It is one of the few tubes of this genre I've received that has such closely matched triodes. Haven't gotten to the listening part just yet.  Film at 11.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Nice testing results. LOL



LOL!  Not quite.  But still decently above minimum values in both testers, so I suppose for $100 I got what I paid for. I have no idea what happens from here with this tube type. Perhaps it will continue on for another 5 years and still be above minimum, or perhaps another 300 hours will finish it and require a memorial service.   We'll see.


----------



## attmci

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubes&m=275412

bangbangbang


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> I think you are on to something! The 5998 was made for Tung Sol by Western Electric. And the 421A was made for Western Electric by Tung Sol!



I thought of a way to get some better data.  The tube below from all appearances and description looks to be truly new (as in unused) old stock.  You guys all chip in and buy it, send it to me, and I'll test it directly against the cherry-testing TS 5998.  After testing, I promise to take good care of it thereafter.


----------



## bcowen

Bonddam said:


> Where is the website for counterfeit tubes? Is bangbangbang the place to go? How much does it cost to counterfeit a tube? seems like a lot of effort to only sell five. I could see China having their own sites that stay hidden from the western world. It only takes one to slip up. I will continue my hunt.



Most of the counterfeits I've seen are sold through the Bangybang website. Most of what I've seen on his Menifee Audio site appear to be genuine, but are priced at 5x+ going market prices. This is just a generalization...I'd bet he gets confused at times and swaps the counterfeits between sites.


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> I used to think only Cetron 7236 tubes have double O-getters, and surprised to hear your Tung Sol 7236's from 1965 also have double O-getters.
> 
> My Tung Sol 7236's are from 1962, and they came with double D-getters.
> 
> So I think sometime between 1962 and 1965, Tung Sol changed 7236 from double D-getters to double O-getters.



Well I think we can squeeze that down by a year. I have a Tung Sol 7236 with halo getters and the date code 6402 etched into the glass. So sometime between 1962 and 1964.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bcowen said:


>



What a lovely specimen. But I am done, completely done. Good luck to anyone making an offer, I hope a lower price will be accepted.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> I thought of a way to get some better data.  The tube below from all appearances and description looks to be truly new (as in unused) old stock.  You guys all chip in and buy it, send it to me, and I'll test it directly against the cherry-testing TS 5998.  *After testing, I promise to take good care of it* thereafter.


@bcowen willing to take one for the team!!!


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> Most of the counterfeits I've seen are sold through the Bangybang website. Most of what I've seen on his Menifee Audio site appear to be genuine, but are priced at 5x+ going market prices. This is just a generalization...I'd bet he gets confused at times and swaps the counterfeits between sites.


If a tube looks genuine on Menifee but overpriced, he will consider offers. I've gotten a few tubes I'm still enjoying from him at considerably less than posted price. YMMV.


----------



## Bonddam (Sep 13, 2020)

My favorite is the TS 5998 has the biggest body of sound deep hard bass very clear. The Bendix and 7236 sound too syrupy. Also it was dependent on headphone the th909 sound good on the least favorite.


----------



## sennfan83261

Bonddam said:


> My favorite is the TS 5998 has the biggest body of sound deep hard bass very clear. The Bendix and 7236 sound too syrupy. Also it was dependent on headphone the th909 sound good on the least favorite.


Interesting. On my DV336, syrupy would be the last word I would describe the TS 7236 when listening to my HD6XX when compared to the 6ASG7 for instance. To my ears, they are forward and cleanish sounding, approaching more to a solid statish sound than the 6AS7G.


----------



## Bonddam

My 7236 are different then yours mine where made in the 50’s they have a plastic base not metal. Also my amp is the Euphoria AE which is warm sounding amp vs my WA33 which sounds more ss.


----------



## gibosi

Bonddam said:


> My 7236 are different then yours mine where made in the 50’s they have a plastic base not metal. Also my amp is the Euphoria AE which is warm sounding amp vs my WA33 which sounds more ss.



And I hope that someday you will get some metal-based 7236 to compare. I wonder if yours sound the same or different than the later ones.


----------



## Bonddam

gibosi said:


> And I hope that someday you will get some metal-based 7236 to compare. I wonder if yours sound the same or different than the later ones.


I have a pair coming that I picked up yesterday. Besides being plastic there are some other little differences if you look some posts back you can see pics of it.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Piggybacking on this conversation, this Cetron tube has me interested.

Does this like a reputable bunch of tubes?  Price seems good:  https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Piggybacking on this conversation, this Cetron tube has me interested.
> 
> Does this like a reputable bunch of tubes?  Price seems good:  https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/7236



I agree. The prices are not unreasonable and there is a good selection. However, mine are 1960's Tung Sol, and I have no idea how 1980's Cetron production sound. Perhaps someone who regularly follows this forum has Cetrons and will tell us.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> I agree. The prices are not unreasonable and there is a good selection. However, mine are 1960's Tung Sol, and I have no idea how 1980's Cetron production sound. Perhaps someone who regularly follows this forum has Cetrons and will tell us.



All my Cetrons are 1983 (at least that's what's printed on the box). Prices on these are not bad from a dealer where they've been tested, you know what you're getting, and if a problem occurred they'd likely take care of it. I've bought a number of tubes from Tube World over the years and have had good experiences every time.


----------



## fuzzroffe (Sep 14, 2020)

gibosi said:


> I agree. The prices are not unreasonable and there is a good selection. However, mine are 1960's Tung Sol, and I have no idea how 1980's Cetron production sound. Perhaps someone who regularly follows this forum has Cetrons and will tell us.


I have both, and I honestly can't tell the difference in sound between a 1964 Tung-Sol and 1983 Cetron in my amp. The Sylvania 7236 feels *maybe* a little warmer to my ears, but it's basically the same sound signature as the other 7236's.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> All my Cetrons are 1983 (at least that's what's printed on the box). Prices on these are not bad from a dealer where they've been tested, you know what you're getting, and if a problem occurred they'd likely take care of it. I've bought a number of tubes from Tube World over the years and have had good experiences every time.


Do you like the Cetron in the Incubus?


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


>




What's the amp in your pic? 

A GOTL similar to gibosi's?


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Do you like the Cetron in the Incubus?



Yes, given the right mate.  With a Foton 6N8S, a bit too lean in the mids and a tad aggressive in the highs (not fatiguing, just a bit emphasized and out of proportion). The Frankentube (7N7) was strangely and mysteriously rather 2-D in soundstage depth and width, and that's usually one of the Frankie's strong points.  With the PSVane CV-181T Mk 2 I found happiness, and then even more with the GEC L63's.  Seems to go best with a driver tube (or tubes) that are on the warm side, but once you tame the touch of brashness it's extremely enjoyable -- very fast, nicely extended and with good whomp in the bass, and quite a toe tapper. Regardless of what driver tube I've tried it with it's NOT a champ in harmonic detail and depth -- not that it's terrible, just that even a pedestrian RCA 6080 brings more of that out. For classical and small ensemble type music, probably not my first pick.  For rock and metal (and yes, including Marilyn Manson  ), it's a blast.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> Yes, given the right mate.  With a Foton 6N8S, a bit too lean in the mids and a tad aggressive in the highs (not fatiguing, just a bit emphasized and out of proportion). The Frankentube (7N7) was strangely and mysteriously rather 2-D in soundstage depth and width, and that's usually one of the Frankie's strong points.  With the PSVane CV-181T Mk 2 I found happiness, and then even more with the GEC L63's.  Seems to go best with a driver tube (or tubes) that are on the warm side, but once you tame the touch of brashness it's extremely enjoyable -- very fast, nicely extended and with good whomp in the bass, and quite a toe tapper. Regardless of what driver tube I've tried it with it's NOT a champ in harmonic detail and depth -- not that it's terrible, just that even a pedestrian RCA 6080 brings more of that out. For classical and small ensemble type music, probably not my first pick.  For rock and metal (and yes, including Marilyn Manson  ), it's a blast.



Thanks for the detailed reply.  You reference warm drivers, and that seems to be all I own at this point in an effort to tame my HD800 headphones.  Perhaps it might sound good with the Ken-Rad black glass 6sn7 or RCA grey glass 6sn7...

I'll pick one of these Cetron tubes up.  I don't listen to Marilyn Manson but I will take you word that the tube makes him sound great!


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Is anyone with both the cetron 7236 and the tung sol 7236 metal bases able to hear a difference between them? My cetron 7236s have to be the least 'tubey' sounding tubes in the whole 6as7 family. 

If anyone is out looking for bendix graphite plates, look out for raytheon 6080WC or tung sol branded ones too, sound is identical to my ears.


----------



## JKDJedi

cddc said:


> LOL....now the measurements really make things more complicated.
> 
> I was thinking the other way around, WE 421A getting 20K-ish uMhos and TS 5998 getting 15K-ish uMhos, or similarly at 15K-ish / 20K-ish uMhos, because on paper WE 421A does have higher transconductance of 20K uMhos (vs TS 5998 @ 15K uMhos), but that could be due to possible higher testing plate and grid voltages when they measured WE 421A in factory. If 421A and 5998 are tested under the same plate and grid voltages, they should have similar transconductances if they are indeed the same tube.
> 
> We possibly need more samples, but thanks very much for your efforts to measure their tranconductances


 Is there such an animal as a double getter 5998?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I thought of a way to get some better data.  The tube below from all appearances and description looks to be truly new (as in unused) old stock.  You guys all chip in and buy it, send it to me, and I'll test it directly against the cherry-testing TS 5998.  After testing, I promise to take good care of it thereafter.


What year is your 5998 @bcowen ? and holy cow..what a gift! congrats.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply.  You reference warm drivers, and that seems to be all I own at this point in an effort to tame my HD800 headphones.  Perhaps it might sound good with the Ken-Rad black glass 6sn7 or RCA grey glass 6sn7...
> 
> I'll pick one of these Cetron tubes up.  I don't listen to Marilyn Manson but I will take you word that the tube makes him sound great!


On point with the 7236 meshing well with warm drivers, especially with 6F8G tubes.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Is there such an animal as a double getter 5998?



Yes indeed. I have twelve 5998s and nearly all of them have double getters, either top or bottom. And around 1968, they often have one halo getter up top and one halo getter located at the bottom.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Yes indeed. I have twelve 5998s and nearly all of them have double getters, either top or bottom. And around 1968, they often have one halo getter up top and one halo getter located at the bottom.


Whoah..... 12!? Nice! I'd love to see one them with the getter at top and bottom....that's crazy.  Ok, so they do come with double getters, this is interesting.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Whoah..... 12!? Nice! I'd love to see one them with the getter at top and bottom....that's crazy.  Ok, so they do come with double getters, this is interesting.



The date code on this one is 6934.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> What year is your 5998 @bcowen ? and holy cow..what a gift! congrats.



Mine is a 1961 with double D-getters up top (where double D's belong, of course   ).

And so far I haven't seen a mad scramble to take me up on my free testing offer.  Baffling.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Mine is a 1961 with double D-getters up top (where double D's belong, of course   ).
> 
> And so far I haven't seen a mad scramble to take me up on my free testing offer.  Baffling.



And double D's also belong at the bottom. 

Date code 710 (1957 week 10)


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> And double D's also belong at the bottom.



I tend to stay away from double-D's that hang that low.  LOL!!


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> The date code on this one is 6934.



 Your cuisine remains supreme... an excellent copy there @gibosi I have NEVER seen ANYTHING like that till now.. And it had to be a 69er L M F A O


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> I tend to stay away from double-D's that hang that low.  LOL!!



But you might change your mind if you would give these a chance to please you.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 15, 2020)

gibosi said:


> But you might change your mind if you would give these a chance to please you.


*Domino BLACK Plated.... Chatham... O.O *





I was gonna post a pic of my Bendix roll this evening......  nevermind..


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> But you might change your mind if you would give these a chance to please you.



Teaser.


----------



## LoryWiv

The discussions of TS 7236 recently motivated to re-seat my pair in the power sockets of Feliks Elise. Wow, I'd forgotten how strong these were in detail retrieval, extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum,soundstage and instrument delineation. They are a bit analytical just as I recalled, but what they do well they do VERY well. Driving with Brimar 6SN7 that adds a touch more warmth / musicality and will try other drivers in the coming days. Thanks to this thread for the consciousness raising about this tube I'd somewhat neglected for a time.

As an aside, just prior I was using Thomson 6080WA powers, also nice but in comparison to the TS 7236 sound a bit soft and wooly. Of course, with a "crisper" driver than the Brimar they may compliment well...so many combinations to try and so little time!


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> But you might change your mind if you would give these a chance to please you.



What do you have at the bottom, some sort of adapters or socket savers?


----------



## raindownthunda

CaptainFantastic said:


> What do you have at the bottom, some sort of adapters or socket savers?


Looks like they're using some amp tube socket spare parts (example). The metal "legs" are the for the solder points inside the amp.


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> What do you have at the bottom, some sort of adapters or socket savers?



Yes, as @raindownthunda suggested, I use octal sockets to keep these top-heavy tubes from falling over. Much more stable this way.


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> The discussions of TS 7236 recently motivated to re-seat my pair in the power sockets of Feliks Elise. Wow, I'd forgotten how strong these were in detail retrieval, extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum,soundstage and instrument delineation. They are a bit analytical just as I recalled, but what they do well they do VERY well. Driving with Brimar 6SN7 that adds a touch more warmth / musicality and will try other drivers in the coming days. Thanks to this thread for the consciousness raising about this tube I'd somewhat neglected for a time.
> 
> As an aside, just prior I was using Thomson 6080WA powers, also nice but in comparison to the TS 7236 sound a bit soft and wooly. Of course, with a "crisper" driver than the Brimar they may compliment well...so many combinations to try and so little time!


The Thompson are about as neutral as a 6080 can get, no influence on the overall sound at all. The only tube (in my possession) that plays well with these guys is the incentric Ken Rad 6C8g . This tube has a DARK WarM tone to it, almost to warm.. the Thompson evened things out .. (for me) and I posted elsewhere wondering about the 7236 in general, on how their soundstage seems to be the largest of their type... Are they?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Hey everybody.  I just purchased a 5998 from a seller in England this morning...75 pounds!  Hopefully it's as good as described at such a good price.

It should show up shortly after my Incubus Elegan, so I'm pretty pumped.

On another note, I purchased a National Union 6as7g from someone for $20 and wow!  It's easily the best sounding power tube I own.  I had fallen in love with my Mullard 6080, but the NU tube is so much more spacious and the bass (especially combined with the Ken-Rad black glass 6sn7) is amazing.  From the same seller I bought a Chatham 6as7g after some hype on the forum.  I like it, but it didn't quite do it for me.  It was detailed, but lacking in bass.  This is in a BHC with HD800 headphones FWIW.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody.  I just purchased a 5998 from a seller in England this morning...75 pounds!  Hopefully it's as good as described at such a good price.
> 
> It should show up shortly after my Incubus Elegan, so I'm pretty pumped.
> 
> On another note, I purchased a National Union 6as7g from someone for $20 and wow!  It's easily the best sounding power tube I own.  I had fallen in love with my Mullard 6080, but the NU tube is so much more spacious and the bass (especially combined with the Ken-Rad black glass 6sn7) is amazing.  From the same seller I bought a Chatham 6as7g after some hype on the forum.  I like it, but it didn't quite do it for me.  It was detailed, but lacking in bass.  This is in a BHC with HD800 headphones FWIW.


Pics of the NU please... You got me curious


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody.  I just purchased a 5998 from a seller in England this morning...75 pounds!  Hopefully it's as good as described at such a good price.
> 
> It should show up shortly after my Incubus Elegan, so I'm pretty pumped.
> 
> On another note, I purchased a National Union 6as7g from someone for $20 and wow!  It's easily the best sounding power tube I own.  I had fallen in love with my Mullard 6080, but the NU tube is so much more spacious and the bass (especially combined with the Ken-Rad black glass 6sn7) is amazing.  From the same seller I bought a Chatham 6as7g after some hype on the forum.  I like it, but it didn't quite do it for me.  It was detailed, but lacking in bass.  This is in a BHC with HD800 headphones FWIW.



To the best of my knowledge, National Union did not manufacture a 6AS7, so I too am very curious to see it.


----------



## JKDJedi

Like to thank @gibosi on lending me Bendix #2 ... Sounds killer.. 😊 (he didn't but he could've)


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Like to thank @gibosi on lending me Bendix #2 ... Sounds killer.. 😊 (he didn't but he could've)



Well the house next door to me is for sale. And if you buy it and move in, then yes, I could easily loan you a Bendix. lol


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 16, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The Thompson are about as neutral as a 6080 can get, no influence on the overall sound at all. The only tube (in my possession) that plays well with these guys is the incentric Ken Rad 6C8g . This tube has a DARK WarM tone to it, almost to warm.. the Thompson evened things out .. (for me) and I posted elsewhere wondering about the 7236 in general, on how their soundstage seems to be the largest of their type... Are they?


Thanks @JKDJedi for your comments on the Thomson. I agree and would also agree the TS 7236 have widest and deepest stage of this tube family, height just a little less impressive. When I 1st rolled these in last night it was startling, I almost thought I was hearing speakers as a more "outside of head" experience. As I acclimated this phenomenon settled down but the nice stage with string quartets etc...remained.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, National Union did not manufacture a 6AS7, so I too am very curious to see it.


At work right now but I will take a pic tonight or first thing tmrw morning.  Here's another listing:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NATIONAL-6AS7G-TUBES-PAIR-/283688607329

Different seller, but the tubes look about the same.  Mine is a clear top and these look they might have dark glass on top.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

PsilocybinCube said:


> At work right now but I will take a pic tonight or first thing tmrw morning.  Here's another listing:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NATIONAL-6AS7G-TUBES-PAIR-/283688607329
> 
> Different seller, but the tubes look about the same.  Mine is a clear top and these look they might have dark glass on top.


Sorry, it was $29!

Here's a link to the tube:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/333712299252

And is there a difference between National and National Union?

The tubes not a looker...but it's a sounder...if that's a phrase.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> At work right now but I will take a pic tonight or first thing tmrw morning.  Here's another listing:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NATIONAL-6AS7G-TUBES-PAIR-/283688607329
> 
> Different seller, but the tubes look about the same.  Mine is a clear top and these look they might have dark glass on top.


322 is Tung Sol I believe .. those might be Tung Sol tubes


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sorry, it was $29!
> 
> Here's a link to the tube:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/333712299252
> 
> ...


I guessed it was a bottom getter tube from your comments.....and it is!! Most bottom getter tubes sound better than their top version...don't know why, but that's what I've been noticing as of late.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> 322 is Tung Sol I believe .. those might be Tung Sol tubes



Yes, indeed!


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sorry, it was $29!
> 
> Here's a link to the tube:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/333712299252
> 
> ...



Yes, National and National Union are entirely different companies.


----------



## gibosi

It looks like an RCA to me, but the pictures are not the greatest. Plus, the RCA's I am comparing it to were made in 1950, but your tube was made about 10 years later. I have a few other RCA's and I will check to see if I have any made around 1960.


----------



## gibosi

gibosi said:


> It looks like an RCA to me, but the pictures are not the greatest. Plus, the RCA's I am comparing it to were made in 1950, but your tube was made about 10 years later. I have a few other RCA's and I will check to see if I have any made around 1960.



After comparing the National tube to several other RCA's, I am fairly sure that it is a RCA 6AS7G. Some RCA's have a top getter and some have a bottom getter, but as I am not a connoiseur of RCA 6AS7G, I can't say which sound the best. .

Also, National never made tubes. They simply sourced them from various manufacturers, labeled them, and then re-sold them.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> After comparing the National tube to several other RCA's, I am fairly sure that it is a RCA 6AS7G. Some RCA's have a top getter and some have a bottom getter, but as I am not a connoiseur of RCA 6AS7G, I can't say which sound the best. .
> 
> Also, National never made tubes. They simply sourced them from various manufacturers, labeled them, and then re-sold them.


Bottom getter sound better, especially the early 50's version of them tubes.. my 2 cents. I bet that National sounds just as good. Would love to audition that tube @PsilocybinCube


----------



## gibosi

What do you think about this one?


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> What do you think about this one?


That looks nearly identical to that National...


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> That looks nearly identical to that National...



Yes, it's an RCA with Tung Sol labeling and Tung Sol production code. 

So you simply can't trust what's written on the base. lol


----------



## Ripper2860

PsilocybinCube said:


> At work right now but I will take a pic tonight or first thing tmrw morning.  Here's another listing:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NATIONAL-6AS7G-TUBES-PAIR-/283688607329
> 
> Different seller, but the tubes look about the same.  Mine is a clear top and these look they might have dark glass on top.



Those look suspiciously like Tung-Sol or Chatham 6AS7G w/ one looking to be a top getter and one a bottom getter.  IIRC, there was a NATIONAL and a NATIONAL UNION company -- they are not the same.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

The National tube I was referencing with a bottom getter.  Probably not the rebranded Tung Sol I was hoping for, but it sounds great.  It's a funny thing how sometimes cheap tubes can sometimes be so surprising.  I guess what I love about tubes vs. SS.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

And while we are on the conversation of low hanging double Ds...


----------



## Ripper2860

PsilocybinCube said:


> The National tube I was referencing with a bottom getter.  Probably not the rebranded Tung Sol I was hoping for, but it sounds great.  It's a funny thing how sometimes cheap tubes can sometimes be so surprising.  I guess what I love about tubes vs. SS.



That's an RCA.


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Sep 17, 2020)

I am perfectly familiar with what microphonics means in the context of a headphone cable. But what do we mean by it for tubes? Out of the beautiful quartet of NOS 421As I recently acquired, one exhibits the following: if I change the volume on the amp (manually) or tap on the desk, the sound of that impact (which in the case of moving the volume dial is not much) is transferred to the right earcup and I hear it if no music is playing. Is this tube microphonics?

Otherwise that tube seems perfect like the other three. But it is a noticeable difference, because the other three... I can hit the desk with my fingers all I want, etc., no noise comes through the headphones as a result.


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am perfectly familiar with what microphonics means in the context of a headphone cable. But what do we mean by it for tubes? Out of the beautiful quartet of NOS 421As I recently acquired, one exhibits the following: if I change the volume on the amp (manually) or tap on the desk, the sound of that impact (which in the case of moving the volume dial is not much) is transferred to the right earcup and I hear it if no music is playing. Is this tube microphonics?
> 
> Otherwise that tube seems perfect like the other three. But it is a noticeable difference, because the other three... I can hit the desk with my fingers all I want, etc., no noise comes through the headphones as a result.


I would say yes, that is the microphonics talked about, similar to the needle of a record player picking up footsteps


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ripper2860 said:


> That's an RCA.


Well.  Rain on my parade. 

Today I had 6 tubes sent to me, 4 of which were RCAs and I can surely agree with you that the build/structure is RCA.  Each of these had a top getter rather than bottom. 

I will agree with @JKDJedi about the bottom getters seeming to sound better. The other two 'non-RCA' tubes I purchased are also surely RCA, but one is an IBM and one is a Ken-Rad.  All of these tubes are 6as7g.

The Ken-Rad and IBM both have bottom getters.  Both look like slightly higher quality builds, too, though that may be in my head.

I'll compare the Ken-Rad and IBM against my National and see if they look alike when I get home tonight or in the morning.  My hunch is that they do look alike.

And a quick note, I'm familiar with the RCA sound and the National tube sounded different.  I suppose it's due to the bottom getter.  Can the shape and location of the getter make that much of a difference?  And why does it?


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well.  Rain on my parade.
> 
> Today I had 6 tubes sent to me, 4 of which were RCAs and I can surely agree with you that the build/structure is RCA.  Each of these had a top getter rather than bottom.
> 
> ...


There's this theory that the barium (metal) material flashed at the top gets scattered throughout the tube... reducing performance. Barium material flashed at the bottom....stays there.


----------



## gibosi (Sep 17, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well.  Rain on my parade.
> 
> Today I had 6 tubes sent to me, 4 of which were RCAs and I can surely agree with you that the build/structure is RCA.  Each of these had a top getter rather than bottom.
> 
> ...



To the best of my knowledge, the only American companies that manufactured the 6AS7G are RCA and Chatham/Tung-Sol. So your IBM and Ken-Rad are likely re-brands. Outside of the US, British GEC/Marconi/Osram and Soviet Svetlana also manufactured this tube.

And I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the major Japanese companies - Toshiba, NEC, Hitachi or Matsushita - also manufactured the 6AS7G, but so far, all I have seen are RCA re-brands from these companies. However, there is evidence to suggest that one or more of these Japanese companies did manufacture the 6080.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, the only American companies that manufactured the 6AS7G are RCA and Chatham/Tung-Sol. So your IBM and Ken-Rad are likely re-brands. Outside of the US, British GEC/Marconi/Osram and Soviet Svetlana also manufactured this tube.
> 
> And I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the major Japanese companies - Toshiba, NEC, Hitachi or Matsushita - also manufactured the 6AS7G, but so far, all I have seen are RCA re-brands from this companies. However, there is evidence to suggest that one or more of these Japanese companies did manufacture the 6080.


Tube Lore has a few names listed (abbreviated) under 6as7g.. I'll do a quick looksie and post when I get home, unless someone beats me to it..


----------



## kkrazik2008

tintinsnowydog said:


> Is anyone with both the cetron 7236 and the tung sol 7236 metal bases able to hear a difference between them? My cetron 7236s have to be the least 'tubey' sounding tubes in the whole 6as7 family.
> 
> If anyone is out looking for bendix graphite plates, look out for raytheon 6080WC or tung sol branded ones too, sound is identical to my ears.



Hi, I have a Tung-Sol 7236 and a Cetron 7236. I completely agree with you, the Cetron is not as wide or tube sounding like the Tung-Sol even though it is supposed to be the same. Now I don't know the background on either, but read that the Cetron are made to the same specifications as the Tung-Sol. What is odd is the size, the Tung-Sol is a good 1/2" taller and the chrome top comes down to cover the top mica disc. Of course, the Tung Sol was bought used so it may benefit from being burned in well, whereas the Cetron I purchased from Tube World Express, and may have not hit the burn in point despite my efforts.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 17, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Tube Lore has a few names listed (abbreviated) under 6as7g.. I'll do a quick looksie and post when I get home, unless someone beats me to it..


RCA-  Chatham-Tung-Sol  GEC, Hytron, NEC, Sylvania, and Sovtek.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> RCA-  Chatham-Tung-Sol  GEC, Hytron, NEC, Sylvania, and Sovtek.



I have an NEC 6520 (OK, technically not a 6AS7, but no reason to nitpick ). Other than the copper filament rods, it is identical in every other respect to an RCA 6AS7G (with steel filament rods). I'm impressed that someone at RCA knew enough Japanese for the silkscreened characters, although it could say "Stupid American Sucker" for all I know.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> RCA-  Chatham-Tung-Sol  GEC, Hytron, NEC, Sylvania, and Sovtek.



With all due respect to Ludwell Sibley, the author of Tube Lore I and II, I am quite sure that Hytron and Sylvania did not manufacture the 6AS7G.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> I have an NEC 6520 (OK, technically not a 6AS7, but no reason to nitpick ). Other than the copper filament rods, it is identical in every other respect to an RCA 6AS7G (with steel filament rods). I'm impressed that someone at RCA knew enough Japanese for the silkscreened characters, although it could say "Stupid American Sucker" for all I know.



通信用 roughly means "for telecommunications"

I have a NEC rectifier, 5R4GY, with the same characters.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> With all due respect to Ludwell Sibley, the author of Tube Lore I and II, I am quite sure that Hytron and Sylvania did not manufacture the 6AS7G.


Surfing on another (dated) thread someone mentioned that a gang of these RCA were built to be put in televisions, but that the adaptation of these tubes got outdated just before production. So maybe why so many of these can be found out there? The CBS-Hytron and Sylvania do look carbon copy RCA.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> 通信用 roughly means "for telecommunications"
> 
> I have a NEC rectifier, 5R4GY, with the same characters.








This is a Motorola 6520.  It has a bottom top and bottom ring getters.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Here are the pics of the IBM and Ken Rad tubes.  Definetley both RCA.  The wiring coming into the IBM is shielded which I haven't seen in any of my RCA tubes.


----------



## fuzzroffe

JKDJedi said:


> Surfing on another (dated) thread someone mentioned that a gang of these RCA were built to be put in televisions, but that the adaptation of these tubes got outdated just before production. So maybe why so many of these can be found out there? The CBS-Hytron and Sylvania do look carbon copy RCA.


The 6AS7 was originally designed as a TV tube but only a very few TV models used it before smaller and more efficient tubes came on the market. It then got repurposed as a pass tube for power supplies due to the current capability. It was used as an audio tube very early on, but it never really caught on. RCA wanted to market the 6L6 for audio.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> I would agree that tube amps often sound their best after being on an hour or longer. However, my original post was only about safety. In order to protect headphones and ears when using an OTL, it is best to wait 5 minutes or so before plugging in headphones. This allows the tube enough time to reach normal operating temperature. But as you note, it does seem to take at least 30 minutes or longer for everything to stabilize and "settle in".



Hi Gibosi, I resurrected one of your old posts from 2016. 

I have been testing one 421A tube every evening. The first was perfect, the second exhibits microphonics so it's fine if I don't touch the desk much while playing calm music, the third is perfect, but tonight, the fourth and last...

I read somewhere months ago that this is the recommended process: Volume 0, music/sounds on source stopped, then turn on amp, then plug in headphone, then let things warm up minimum 5 min, then start listening.

So tonight with the fourth tube, I turned on my WA3, then 10 seconds later I plugged in my HD-600. Then, with the headphones still on their stand, I heard a fairly loud pop. Then 20 seconds later, another pop. Then I turned off the amp quickly. 

I tested my HD-600 out of the solid state amp and it sounds undamaged, since I A/B-ed with my other HD-600.

My question having read your post from 2016: Should I be worried about this? Should I just change my practice of plugging in the headphones after 10 seconds to a longer 5 min? It's strange, because none of the other tubes in my small army of 421As and 5998s made even a small pop... then this. (the amp and connectors are clean, etc. I take good care of my gear... the 421A tube too was cleaned with Deoxit a week ago).


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Hi Gibosi, I resurrected one of your old posts from 2016.
> 
> I have been testing one 421A tube every evening. The first was perfect, the second exhibits microphonics so it's fine if I don't touch the desk much while playing calm music, the third is perfect, but tonight, the fourth and last...
> 
> ...


My 2 cents, the amp could have some power left over built up inside.. so when it gets a chance to release.....pop! Might want to try waiting 30 seconds or so, not sure how to handle this if it's already plugged in. Also don't pull your tubes out till they cool off is good practice.


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Hi Gibosi, I resurrected one of your old posts from 2016.
> 
> I have been testing one 421A tube every evening. The first was perfect, the second exhibits microphonics so it's fine if I don't touch the desk much while playing calm music, the third is perfect, but tonight, the fourth and last...
> 
> ...



Technically, 30 seconds is probably all that's necessary. Usually, if a tube is going to misbehave, it will be in the first 30 seconds or so. But for some reason, 5998 / 421A seem to take longer to reach normal operating temperature and settle in than most other tubes. And for some reason, unlike 6080 / 6AS7G, instead of a pinging sound, 5998 / 421A often pop very loudly as they heat up. So I advocate waiting at least 5 minutes when using these tubes, just to be safe.

I know of several cases where headphones have been damaged by folks not waiting long enough. And in one case, the user was wearing his headphones and feels very lucky that his ears weren't damaged. So in the end, protect your ears and your headphones. It's better to be safe than sorry.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> Technically, 30 seconds is probably all that's necessary. Usually, if a tube is going to misbehave, it will be in the first 30 seconds or so. But for some reason, 5998 / 421A seem to take longer to reach normal operating temperature and settle in than most other tubes. And for some reason, unlike 6080 / 6AS7G, instead of a pinging sound, 5998 / 421A often pop very loudly as they heat up. So I advocate waiting at least 5 minutes when using these tubes, just to be safe.
> 
> I know of several cases where headphones have been damaged by folks not waiting long enough. And in one case, the user was wearing his headphones and feels very lucky that his ears weren't damaged. So in the end, protect your ears and your headphones. It's better to be safe than sorry.



Thanks. I will do the 5 minutes wait, I am never in a rush to start enjoying my music.

So you would not say that that's a bad tube just because of the initial loud pops? I have the option to return it still...


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. I will do the 5 minutes wait, I am never in a rush to start enjoying my music.
> 
> So you would not say that that's a bad tube just because of the initial loud pops? I have the option to return it still...


Now that I have a tester I could do that for ya..hold on to it for a few weeks ..just to make sure.. ;D  I'm sure your tube is good, just do the warm up deal as well as the cool down.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> Now that I have a tester I could do that for ya..hold on to it for a few weeks ..just to make sure.. ;D  I'm sure your tube is good, just do the warm up deal as well as the cool down.



Thanks for the offer to test! Honestly I would send it to you without hesitation, but currently shipping between our continents is very sketchy.

But we have family in Chicago and LA. We keep changing our Lufthansa tickets, now Christmas travel looks off too. I will reach out to you perhaps next summer and if you're still up for it, I will mail it to you domestically when I am there for a nice, long vacation.


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## adeadcrab

I've had one of my Bendix 6080WB arc for a second or two the first time I had it running. Either it was 
1) dealing with some oxygen in the tube, or it was 
2) a bad connection with the pins being oxidised.
Never had an issue with either tube since, I cleaned the pins the other week after leaving them in their box for a year or so - tons of black gross residue came off which is either the pins oxidising or the new tube amp sockets.

Switched over to the Bendix 6080WB last night, from the Cetron 7236 - the first thing I noticed is the 7236 is LOUD. LIke at least 5-6 dB louder than the 6080WB at the same volume position. 7236 I think is just faster, clearer, punchier (hard to imagine compared to the venerable 6080WB!) .. will need to study the 6080WB all day today I thinks..


----------



## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> I've had one of my Bendix 6080WB arc for a second or two the first time I had it running. Either it was
> 1) dealing with some oxygen in the tube, or it was
> 2) a bad connection with the pins being oxidised.
> Never had an issue with either tube since, I cleaned the pins the other week after leaving them in their box for a year or so - tons of black gross residue came off which is either the pins oxidising or the new tube amp sockets.
> ...


Be careful... lot of Bendix fans here... 😏


----------



## kkrazik2008

adeadcrab said:


> I've had one of my Bendix 6080WB arc for a second or two the first time I had it running. Either it was
> 1) dealing with some oxygen in the tube, or it was
> 2) a bad connection with the pins being oxidised.
> Never had an issue with either tube since, I cleaned the pins the other week after leaving them in their box for a year or so - tons of black gross residue came off which is either the pins oxidising or the new tube amp sockets.
> ...


7236 is a louder tube as it has a higher output rating than the 6080, 6AS7G styles. Similar to the 5998 in power output, so yeah it will be louder.


----------



## adeadcrab

kkrazik2008 said:


> 7236 is a louder tube as it has a higher output rating than the 6080, 6AS7G styles. Similar to the 5998 in power output, so yeah it will be louder.


Yah, I already knew about the 5998 / 7236 being higher in gain, for whatever reason I assumed the 6080WB would be up there too 
5998 / 7236 / GEC / WE 421 are the louder tubes IIRC.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Here are the pics of the IBM and Ken Rad tubes.  Definetley both RCA.  The wiring coming into the IBM is shielded which I haven't seen in any of my RCA tubes.



If by "shielded" you're referring to the insulation around the element wires at the bottom, both my RCA labeled RCA and NEC labeled RCA have that.  I only have the one RCA labeled 6AS7, so nothing else to compare to though.


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## JKDJedi

adeadcrab said:


> Yah, I already knew about the 5998 / 7236 being higher in gain, for whatever reason I assumed the 6080WB would be up there too
> 5998 / 7236 / GEC / WE 421 are the louder tubes IIRC.
> [/QU





bcowen said:


> If by "shielded" you're referring to the insulation around the element wires at the bottom, both my RCA labeled RCA and NEC labeled RCA have that.  I only have the one RCA labeled 6AS7, so nothing else to compare to though.


An RCA labeled....RCA!!! Dude!!! Want!!!! 😁


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## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> An RCA labeled....RCA!!! Dude!!! Want!!!! 😁



LOL!  I know!  Can you believe it?  I finally found one!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  I know!  Can you believe it?  I finally found one!


😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣


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## LoryWiv (Sep 18, 2020)

adeadcrab said:


> Switched over to the Bendix 6080WB last night, from the Cetron 7236 - the first thing I noticed is the 7236 is LOUD. LIke at least 5-6 dB louder than the 6080WB at the same volume position. 7236 I think is just *faster, clearer, punchier* (hard to imagine compared to the venerable 6080WB!) .. will need to study the 6080WB all day today I thinks..


I agree with everything you've said about the 7236 after spending a good amount of time with it last few days. The thing is, I find it's mids a bit dry and the overall sound lacking in euphony / musiciality. This is especially notable with strings in a classical quartet. I'm now running a GE (sorry @bcowen) 7581A w/adapter and while the technicalities don't match TS 7236, it has that touch of warmth that makes me forgive other shortcomings. I wish I could find a power tube with the amazing clarity / detail / instrument separation and wide, deep stage of 7236 and just a tad more warmth to go with the clinical precision. Suggestions?


----------



## kkrazik2008

adeadcrab said:


> Yah, I already knew about the 5998 / 7236 being higher in gain, for whatever reason I assumed the 6080WB would be up there too
> 5998 / 7236 / GEC / WE 421 are the louder tubes IIRC.


Is the Bendix 6080 the prime version of the 6080 style? I have a Chatham and it is great, more tube like in comparison to the 7236 with a lot less detail. Was curious on the other 6080 brands as I see many that are affordable, then the Bendix which are significantly more expensive.


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## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> I wish I could find a power tube with the amazing clarity / detail / instrument separation and wide, deep stage of 7236 and just a tad more warmth to go with the clinical precision. Suggestions?



In a word: WE 421A. OK, 3 words. Sorry. 

So would you describe the 7236 as having kind of a solid state-y midrange, lacking harmonic detail and depth of tone?  That's what I hear too when paired up with an unaccommodating driver tube.  But put in the PSVane CV181-T Mk II, or a pair of GEC L63's, or even a pair of Tung Sol round plate 6J5's, and a lot of that, um, 'sterility' in the mids improves substantially and things start to bloom. 

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with GE's....so long as they're not in _my_ amp. LOL!!


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> In a word: WE 421A. OK, 3 words. Sorry.
> 
> So would you describe the 7236 as having kind of a solid state-y midrange, lacking harmonic detail and depth of tone?  That's what I hear too when paired up with an unaccommodating driver tube.  But put in the PSVane CV181-T Mk II, or a pair of GEC L63's, or even a pair of Tung Sol round plate 6J5's, and a lot of that, um, 'sterility' in the mids improves substantially and things start to bloom.
> 
> And there's absolutely nothing wrong with GE's....so long as they're not in _my_ amp. LOL!!


Yes, your description of the 7236 (it's virtues not withstanding) is my impression just more articulately stated.

Man, WE 421A are up there with the least wallet friendly "drop-in" 6AS7, perhaps I'll work on=n preamp tube synergy until my lottery ticket comes in.

I assume L63 and 6J5 octals have different pinouts and thus need adapters for 6SN7 "native" sockets, correct?

Thanks, @bcowen.


----------



## adeadcrab

LoryWiv said:


> I agree with everything you've said about the 7236 after spending a good amount of time with it last few days. The thing is, I find it's mids a bit dry and the overall sound lacking in euphony / musiciality.



Compare it to an amp like the THX 789 from a clean DAC and get back to me  It's still a tube after all but I do agree with what you're getting at.

I have a couple different driver tubes that I match with the 7236 - 5693 and 6SJ7GT mesh. The mesh tubes are very airy and bright and together with the 789 make it sound 90% like the THX 789. With the 5693's, maybe 75%-80%. Totally subjectively speaking of course.

I have to imagine the 5998 or GEC / Westinghouse tubes tick all the boxes for the sound we are looking for.

Bendix 6080WB are giving me a decent sound atm


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> I agree with everything you've said about the 7236 after spending a good amount of time with it last few days. The thing is, I find it's mids a bit dry and the overall sound lacking in euphony / musiciality. This is especially notable with strings in a classical quartet. I'm now running a GE (sorry @bcowen) 7581A w/adapter and while the technicalities don't match TS 7236, it has that touch of warmth that makes me forgive other shortcomings. I wish I could find a power tube with the amazing clarity / detail / instrument separation and wide, deep stage of 7236 and just a tad more warmth to go with the clinical precision. Suggestions?


Might have better luck rolling drivers to find what your looking for. I was gonna suggest 421a the same.. those are a touch wider than the 5998, (wider than the ones I had anyway) and if you don't mind using adapters... RCA 6F8G . NU6F8G ... for driving duties.. cat's meow.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> An RCA labeled....RCA!!! Dude!!! Want!!!! 😁



And I just realized that I have 7 RCA 6AS7G and none of them are labeled RCA - 4 labeled Western Union, 2 labeled GE and 1 labeled Tung Sol! lol


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, your description of the 7236 (it's virtues not withstanding) is my impression just more articulately stated.
> 
> Man, WE 421A are up there with the least wallet friendly "drop-in" 6AS7, perhaps I'll work on=n preamp tube synergy until my lottery ticket comes in.
> 
> ...



From what others tell me, a 1950's era 5998 is going to give you something very close to the sound of a 421A for a lot less.


----------



## gibosi

kkrazik2008 said:


> Is the Bendix 6080 the prime version of the 6080 style? I have a Chatham and it is great, more tube like in comparison to the 7236 with a lot less detail. Was curious on the other 6080 brands as I see many that are affordable, then the Bendix which are significantly more expensive.



I would say many consider the Bendix and GEC 6080s to be among the best. But unfortunately, neither is budget friendly.


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, your description of the 7236 (it's virtues not withstanding) is my impression just more articulately stated.
> 
> Man, WE 421A are up there with the least wallet friendly "drop-in" 6AS7, perhaps I'll work on=n preamp tube synergy until my lottery ticket comes in.
> 
> ...



The L63 and 6J5 are essentially 1/2 of a 6SN7GT, so yes, you would need an adapter to use a pair in one 6SN7 socket.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, your description of the 7236 (it's virtues not withstanding) is my impression just more articulately stated.
> 
> Man, WE 421A are up there with the least wallet friendly "drop-in" 6AS7, perhaps I'll work on=n preamp tube synergy until my lottery ticket comes in.
> 
> ...



Yes, the 421A is becoming unobtanium, but to my ears it's definitely worth all the praise it gets.  And also yes, an adapter is required for 6J5's and L63's (which are a 6J5 variant) as they are single triode tubes and you'll need 2.  @Deyan is the go-to adapter guy.  But lots of different variants of a 6J5 that will work with the same adapter, and a lot of them are still relatively cheap. So an even bigger rabbit hole to jump into if you ever start feeling claustrophobic.   Agree too with @JKDJedi on the 6C8-G....but you'll need an adapter for it as well.

L63's below in one of Deyan's adapters (plugged into 6SN7 socket):




 

KenRad 6C8-G (w/WE 421A):


----------



## LoryWiv

gibosi said:


> The L63 and 6J5 are essentially 1/2 of a 6SN7GT, so yes, you would need an adapter to use a pair in one 6SN7 socket.


Forgive the "just when I thought I'd moved beyond noobie" question, but could I use a singe L63 or 6JF w/o and adapter in a 6SN7 socket, compensate for less gain with colume adjustment?


----------



## sennfan83261

JKDJedi said:


> Might have better luck rolling drivers to find what your looking for. I was gonna suggest 421a the same.. those are a touch wider than the 5998, (wider than the ones I had anyway) and if you don't mind using adapters... RCA 6F8G . NU6F8G ... for driving duties.. cat's meow.


You meant the grey glass RCA 6F8G's, right? The clear glass meatball logo ones are a bit meh IIRC. There's a reason why I go for the grey glass RCA, NU, or the Sylvania 6F8G/VT-99's typically. I'm too poor for the Tung-sol BGRP 6F8G/VT-99's, lol. I have a TS BGRP 6C8G that's really, really good, but it is more on the solid-state side of the ledger when it comes to sound (on the CTH, I haven't tried it on my DV336).


----------



## JKDJedi

sennfan83261 said:


> You meant the grey glass RCA 6F8G's, right? The clear glass meatball logo ones are a bit meh IIRC. There's a reason why I go for the grey glass RCA, NU, or the Sylvania 6F8G/VT-99's typically. I'm too poor for the Tung-sol BGRP 6F8G/VT-99's, lol. I have a TS BGRP 6C8G that's really, really good, but it is more on the solid-state side of the ledger when it comes to sound (on the CTH, I haven't tried it on my DV336).


Yes sir.  .. the grey glass RCA Radiotron.


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Forgive the "just when I thought I'd moved beyond noobie" question, but could I use a singe L63 or 6JF w/o and adapter in a 6SN7 socket, compensate for less gain with colume adjustment?



Sorry, but it won't work. You can't simply stick a single triode into a socket designed for a double triode.


----------



## GDuss

LoryWiv said:


> Forgive the "just when I thought I'd moved beyond noobie" question, but could I use a singe L63 or 6JF w/o and adapter in a 6SN7 socket, compensate for less gain with colume adjustment?



Check out the prices of metal 6J5 tubes.  You might just want to get a dual 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter.  Or not, if you don't want the option of that rabbit hole


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Sep 18, 2020)

The graphite 6080 sounds very solid and commanding across all frequencies; it pairs best with a neutral or bright driver tube to really shine in my amps. The GEC 6080 imo is halfway between a 7236 and a Mullard 6080, 90% of the technicalities but with a much warmer tone.

I do find myself always prefering the 6AS7 for any brand over their 6080s though.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 18, 2020)

GDuss said:


> Check out the prices of metal 6J5 tubes.  You might just want to get a dual 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter.  Or not, if you don't want the option of that rabbit hole


I went down that hole.... 4 pairs later


gibosi said:


> And I just realized that I have 7 RCA 6AS7G and none of them are labeled RCA - 4 labeled Western Union, 2 labeled GE and 1 labeled Tung Sol! lol


Cunningham 🙋


----------



## bpiotrow13

Hi all, it seems 6as7/6080 are becoming more and more expensive and harder to get. Do you have any idea on new production of these tubes? It seems svetlana/sovtec are producing 6as7 nowadays(and sylvania?) (correct me if am wrong)? Do you have any idea is it probable tung sol reissue their 5998?


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> Check out the prices of metal 6J5 tubes.  You might just want to get a dual 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter.  Or not, if you don't want the option of that rabbit hole



There's no such thing as too many rabbit holes.  I read that somewhere on the internet, so it must be true.


----------



## bcowen

bpiotrow13 said:


> Hi all, it seems 6as7/6080 are becoming more and more expensive and harder to get. Do you have any idea on new production of these tubes? It seems svetlana/sovtec are producing 6as7 nowadays(and sylvania?) (correct me if am wrong)? Do you have any idea is it probable tung sol reissue their 5998?



The Tung Sol branded tubes being made today are not the USA-made Tung Sols of the past. They are all Russian manufacture. Don't mean for that to come across as negative as many of the new issues sound pretty good, but a newly manufactured Russian-made Tung Sol 5998 that sounds anything like the old one is pretty much _not_ going to happen.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I went down that hole.... 4 pairs later
> 
> Cunningham 🙋



So I'm the only one with an RCA-labeled RCA 6AS7?  I feel so special.  

But I guess it could be argued that Cunningham is just a different spelling of RCA.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (Sep 19, 2020)

bcowen said:


> The Tung Sol branded tubes being made today are not the USA-made Tung Sols of the past. They are all Russian manufacture. Don't mean for that to come across as negative as many of the new issues sound pretty good, but a newly manufactured Russian-made Tung Sol 5998 that sounds anything like the old one is pretty much _not_ going to happen.


Thanks, are there any 6as7/equivalents in new production or any known plans? In case not does anyone have any reliable source for NOS?


----------



## bpiotrow13

bcowen said:


> So I'm the only one with an RCA-labeled RCA 6AS7? I feel so special.



I have bought the below tubes in Germany as NOS. They are a bit noisy, hope they will burn out. I do not know anything more than they are rca 6as7g.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bpiotrow13 said:


> Hi all, it seems 6as7/6080 are becoming more and more expensive and harder to get. Do you have any idea on new production of these tubes? It seems svetlana/sovtec are producing 6as7 nowadays(and sylvania?) (correct me if am wrong)? Do you have any idea is it probable tung sol reissue their 5998?


The Svetlana Winged C you referenced is newer, plentiful, and sounds great.  That's a great tube if you want to hoard a few good tubes at a very low price.


----------



## Ripper2860

I make it a point not to hoard tubes that are plentiful.  Kinda defeats the reason for hoarding. 🤔


Ah - Who the hell am I kidding?  😄


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I make it a point not to hoard tubes that are plentiful.  Kinda defeats the reason for hoarding. 🤔
> 
> 
> Ah - Who the hell am I kidding?  😄



Western Electric 421A's were once plentiful.  Just sayin'.  

And you're a licensed MasterHoarder anyway.  Scarcity is irrelevant.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> The Svetlana Winged C you referenced is newer, plentiful, and sounds great.  That's a great tube if you want to hoard a few good tubes at a very low price.



Agreed. Great tube for the money.  I even have a pair that were made in England by Russians with a Philips brand.


----------



## attmci (Sep 20, 2020)

Different Bendix 6080.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Agreed. Great tube for the money.  I even have a pair that were made in England by Russians with a Philips brand.



And I have a pair of Amperex 6AS7G just like these! lol


----------



## LoryWiv

NOS 6AS7 / 6080 prices and scarcity have let me to try some adapter-requiring options, and I must say I like several quite a bit. Currently using Sylvania VT-115 (6L6 equivalent) using adapters from Deyan, and those same adapters work for new production Genalex KT88 which are the only new production tubes I've tried that get regular use. Really good all around powers in my Feliks-Audio Elise.

QUESTION: Is the ability to use non-6AS7 family powers unique to Elise / Euforia, or is this likely to be safe / compatible with any amp using proper adapters as long as voltage and heater current specifications are not exceeded?

It's been fun and a revelation for me to be able to try these other tube families and I'm curious how applicable that possibility is to other amps I might try in the future.


----------



## bpiotrow13

PsilocybinCube said:


> The Svetlana Winged C you referenced is newer, plentiful, and sounds great. That's a great tube if you want to hoard a few good tubes at a very low price.


Thanks, i guess this is 6n13s? I have bought a pair as well.


----------



## GDuss

LoryWiv said:


> NOS 6AS7 / 6080 prices and scarcity have let me to try some adapter-requiring options, and I must say I like several quite a bit. Currently using Sylvania VT-115 (6L6 equivalent) using adapters from Deyan, and those same adapters work for new production Genalex KT88 which are the only new production tubes I've tried that get regular use. Really good all around powers in my Feliks-Audio Elise.
> 
> QUESTION: Is the ability to use non-6AS7 family powers unique to Elise / Euforia, or is this likely to be safe / compatible with any amp using proper adapters as long as voltage and heater current specifications are not exceeded?
> 
> It's been fun and a revelation for me to be able to try these other tube families and I'm curious how applicable that possibility is to other amps I might try in the future.



I don't think the Glenn OTL can run 6L6 or KT88 tubes.  It runs the other standard 6080/6AS7G tubes, including 6H13/6N13 (and 6BX7/6BL7).


----------



## kkrazik2008

Serious question on tube storage, 6 weeks ago I had zero tubes. Now I have 4 power tubes, and 4 pairs of driver tubes, how the hell can I store them without the need for boxing them up? As in any easy access storage where I can grab and go, while comparing on the fly?


----------



## gibosi (Sep 19, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> NOS 6AS7 / 6080 prices and scarcity have let me to try some adapter-requiring options, and I must say I like several quite a bit. Currently using Sylvania VT-115 (6L6 equivalent) using adapters from Deyan, and those same adapters work for new production Genalex KT88 which are the only new production tubes I've tried that get regular use. Really good all around powers in my Feliks-Audio Elise.
> 
> QUESTION: Is the ability to use non-6AS7 family powers unique to Elise / Euforia, or is this likely to be safe / compatible with any amp using proper adapters as long as voltage and heater current specifications are not exceeded?
> 
> It's been fun and a revelation for me to be able to try these other tube families and I'm curious how applicable that possibility is to other amps I might try in the future.



I am sure it is not unique to the Elise / Eurforia amps. But there is no way to know how well such a tube will work or how good it will sound in other amps. However, I can say that in a true OTL, plate output resistance is an important factor, and lower resistance is generally better when driving headphones.

I am not an electrical engineer or an expert in designing OTL amps, far from it, but this is my current thinking and understanding.

So for example, the 6L6 has a plate resistance somewhere between 22,500 and 33,000 ohms, depending on how they are biased. Dividing plate resistance by the amplification factor plus 1 (AF+1 = 9) gives the tubes output impedance, roughly between 2,500 and 4,667 ohms. Obviously, the impedance mismatch when driving a pair of 600 ohm headphones is huge. However, I am not sure that the Elise amp is a true OTL.

The 6AS7G has a plate resistance of 280 ohms. Dividing by AF+1 (3) =  93 ohms. Obviously, this is a much better match when using 600 ohm headphones. And if your amp uses two 6AS7, one for each channel, then the sections are stacked, one on top of the other, so you would divide by 2, and the result is 47 ohms. A much better match between the  amp and most headphones.

So you probably can't hurt anything as long as voltage and heater current specifications are considered. However, it is impossible to know beforehand how well they will work. But you might be pleasantly surprised like those who are running 6L6 and similar in their Elise. As a friend often jokes, tubes can't read so they don't know that they shouldn't work! lol


----------



## gibosi

kkrazik2008 said:


> Serious question on tube storage, 6 weeks ago I had zero tubes. Now I have 4 power tubes, and 4 pairs of driver tubes, how the hell can I store them without the need for boxing them up? As in any easy access storage where I can grab and go, while comparing on the fly?



Maybe you could store them in the silverware drawer in your kitchen?


----------



## bcowen

kkrazik2008 said:


> Serious question on tube storage, 6 weeks ago I had zero tubes. Now I have 4 power tubes, and 4 pairs of driver tubes, how the hell can I store them without the need for boxing them up? As in any easy access storage where I can grab and go, while comparing on the fly?



This is how I store mine:






But @Ripper2860 is far more organized with all his tubes:


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 19, 2020)

I place all my TOTL tubes in GE boxes to keep @bcowen away.  The GE logo sends him running!  😏


----------



## JKDJedi

kkrazik2008 said:


> Serious question on tube storage, 6 weeks ago I had zero tubes. Now I have 4 power tubes, and 4 pairs of driver tubes, how the hell can I store them without the need for boxing them up? As in any easy access storage where I can grab and go, while comparing on the fly?


Buy a nice desk and use the drawers. Then when three of them get full start boxing them, then after that.... 😒


----------



## kkrazik2008

bcowen said:


> This is how I store mine:
> 
> 
> 
> But @Ripper2860 is far more organized with all his tubes:


oh my......


----------



## attmci (Sep 20, 2020)

attmci said:


> Different Bendix 6080.


----------



## LoryWiv

kkrazik2008 said:


> Serious question on tube storage, 6 weeks ago I had zero tubes. Now I have 4 power tubes, and 4 pairs of driver tubes, how the hell can I store them without the need for boxing them up? As in any easy access storage where I can grab and go, while comparing on the fly?


Large seahorse cases, either using the boxes or bubble wrap. I find I can accommodate around 8 tubes per case depending on size, and have two large and one small case. Maybe this is part of why I try not to over buy because that means buying more storage too 🤭


----------



## bcowen

kkrazik2008 said:


> oh my......



More seriously, I use low height plastic bins that slide under the bed.  Only problem is that these are full, so I either need to sell some or buy a bigger bed to fit another one under.


----------



## kkrazik2008

I like some of the suggestions, I think a small sea horse/pelican case may be the way to go as I don't have too many of them. The other issue I just realized is I only have the original boxes for 3 of them, the others came packaged in oversized boxes with either styrofoam or bubblewrap. I almost want to make something like a wood block with holes to insert them in for quick access. Maybe someone on Etsy already does this, will have to investigate further. For now I may use the inner card board from TP for the Power tubes, I think I saw someone do that in this thread? If it was a joke, it is better than my current solution of leaving them out in the open.


----------



## LoryWiv

kkrazik2008 said:


> I like some of the suggestions, I think a small sea horse/pelican case may be the way to go as I don't have too many of them. The other issue I just realized is I only have the original boxes for 3 of them, the others came packaged in oversized boxes with either styrofoam or bubblewrap. I almost want to make something like a wood block with holes to insert them in for quick access. Maybe someone on Etsy already does this, will have to investigate further. For now I may use the inner card board from TP for the Power tubes, I think I saw someone do that in this thread? If it was a joke, it is better than my current solution of leaving them out in the open.


 You can also buy tube boxes. they are not expensive. https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-boxes-generic-storing-vacuum-tubes


----------



## LoryWiv

gibosi said:


> I am sure it is not unique to the Elise / Eurforia amps. But there is no way to know how well such a tube will work or how good it will sound in other amps. However, I can say that in a true OTL, plate output resistance is an important factor, and lower resistance is generally better when driving headphones.
> 
> I am not an electrical engineer or an expert in designing OTL amps, far from it, but this is my current thinking and understanding.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much, @gibosi. The key for me is that I won't harm my amp, and once that is established venturing into other output tube types has been a productive adventure. 

Your post is one I can study and learn from. I am certain your analysis is correct, both the *calculation* and the *tubes can't read* conclusion.  They say Albert Einstein failed math. (albeit probably a myth) and perhaps the 6L6, KT88 and even 6V6 I've tried did too because damn if they don't sound like a proper match when auto-biased in Elise and paired with synergistic drivers, all in service of my ZMF Auteur.

I do note when first installed some of these non-standard powers sound a bit anemic, but adding a bit of volume / gain and an hour or two in the socket --> a very enjoyable listen. Brain burn-in? Alchemy / magic or sheer luck. Perhaps all of the above.

I really appreciate your response!


----------



## kkrazik2008

LoryWiv said:


> You can also buy tube boxes. they are not expensive. https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-boxes-generic-storing-vacuum-tubes


Doi! I didn't even think of that, so simple. Thanks. Then I will move into the big arse plastic bins like @bcowen !


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Buy a nice desk and use the drawers. Then when three of them get full start boxing them, then after that.... 😒


+1 for the drawer method but it fills up quickly unless you want them horizontal.


----------



## gibosi

kkrazik2008 said:


> Doi! I didn't even think of that, so simple. Thanks. Then I will move into the big arse plastic bins like @bcowen !



Well, when your collection grows to be a couple thousand tubes, then we can talk. lol


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> +1 for the drawer method but it fills up quickly unless you want them horizontal.



Easy enough to fix.  Bigger desk.


----------



## bcowen

Tung Sol 5998 and PSVane CV181-T Mk II:


----------



## Ripper2860

gibosi said:


> Well, when your collection *obsession* grows to be a couple thousand tubes, then we can talk. lol



Fixed it for you.


----------



## LoryWiv

gibosi said:


> I am sure it is not unique to the Elise / Eurforia amps. But there is no way to know how well such a tube will work or how good it will sound in other amps. However, I can say that in a true OTL, plate output resistance is an important factor, and lower resistance is generally better when driving headphones.
> 
> I am not an electrical engineer or an expert in designing OTL amps, far from it, but this is my current thinking and understanding.
> 
> ...


Hi @gibosi, one more thought on this topic. When the 6L6 pentode is inserted into 6AS7 socket with an adapter, such as those skillfully made by made bt @Deyan, I believe the 6L6 is triode strapped and performance characteristics are markedly altered. See the screen capture below from the 6L6 data sheet.




So if the 6L6 plate resistance is 1700 configured this way,  tube output impedance for a pair of 6L6 powers is 1700 / 9 = 189, divided by 2 = 94.5. I think this gets closer to explaining how they can be compatible and perform well in Elise with my 300 Ohm Auteur. Thoughts?


----------



## Toby Joe

bcowen said:


> So I'm the only one with an RCA-labeled RCA 6AS7?  I feel so special.
> 
> But I guess it could be argued that Cunningham is just a different spelling of RCA.


I have 3 RCA 6AS7G tubes. Two with 60-22 dates and one with a 60-04 date and I was wondering if anyone knows the manufactured dates for these tubes?

Also, I have a GE 6AS7G tube, that does not have the GE etching dots, so I think it’s an RCA and I was wondering if anybody knows the manufacturing date of this 3-39 / 188-5 tube?

Thanks……………..


----------



## Toby Joe

bpiotrow13 said:


> I have bought the below tubes in Germany as NOS. They are a bit noisy, hope they will burn out. I do not know anything more than they are rca 6as7g.


That’s interesting as I’ve only used one of my RCA 6AS7G tubes, 60-22 date, and I do not recall hearing it being noisy. What I do remember is how vast and mellow this tube sounds. What are the date codes for your tubes? Does anybody know if tubes get noisy when they start to wear out?


----------



## gibosi

Toby Joe said:


> I have 3 RCA 6AS7G tubes. Two with 60-22 dates and one with a 60-04 date and I was wondering if anyone knows the manufactured dates for these tubes?
> 
> Also, I have a GE 6AS7G tube, that does not have the GE etching dots, so I think it’s an RCA and I was wondering if anybody knows the manufacturing date of this 3-39 / 188-5 tube?
> 
> Thanks……………..



60-22 = 1960, week 22
60-04 = 1960, week 04
3-39 = 1953, week 39.

But again, these dates indicate when the tube was labeled, boxed and shipped. Actually, it is very likely that they were manufactured before these dates, perhaps weeks, months, or even years.


----------



## Bonddam

Got myself a real TS 7236 metal base mint condition for nos. But the TS 5998 is my favorite.


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Hi @gibosi, one more thought on this topic. When the 6L6 pentode is inserted into 6AS7 socket with an adapter, such as those skillfully made by made bt @Deyan, I believe the 6L6 is triode strapped and performance characteristics are markedly altered. See the screen capture below from the 6L6 data sheet.
> 
> 
> So if the 6L6 plate resistance is 1700 configured this way,  tube output impedance for a pair of 6L6 powers is 1700 / 9 = 189, divided by 2 = 94.5. I think this gets closer to explaining how they can be compatible and perform well in Elise with my 300 Ohm Auteur. Thoughts?



I forgot that when used in audio, 6L6 are typically strapped into triodes (Grid #2 is connected to the plate in the socket or adapter), and I didn't scroll down to that section on the data sheet. My bad. 

So yes, plate resistance in a triode-strapped 6L6 is much lower and the plate output impedance would be 189 ohms, if only one 6L6 is used in a 6AS7 socket. And if the adapter allows the use of a pair of 6L6 to be used in one 6AS7 socket, stacked so to speak, the output impedance would be half that, 94.5 ohms


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 20, 2020)

gibosi said:


> I forgot that when used in audio, 6L6 are typically strapped into triodes (Grid #2 is connected to the plate in the socket or adapter), and I didn't scroll down to that section on the data sheet. My bad.
> 
> So yes, plate resistance in a triode-strapped 6L6 is much lower and the plate output impedance would be 189 ohms, if only one 6L6 is used in a 6AS7 socket. And if the adapter allows the use of a pair of 6L6 to be used in one 6AS7 socket, stacked so to speak, the output impedance would be half that, 94.5 ohms



Hmmmm...it's not two per socket, rather two 6L6 each in their own socket. However, that is no different than how the 6AS7 are utilized in Elise, so output[ut impedance calculation should be the same.

Related question: Does the output impedance of preamp (driver) tubes matter or contribute? Or does this aspect not affect final output impedance as it only determines what is delivered to the output tube?

Thanks, @gibosi! I am not sophisticated with audio engineering but I enjoy learning what I can, as pertinent to maximizing enjoyment from my amp. without blowing it up.


----------



## Toby Joe

adeadcrab said:


> I've had one of my Bendix 6080WB arc for a second or two the first time I had it running. Either it was
> 1) dealing with some oxygen in the tube, or it was
> 2) a bad connection with the pins being oxidised.
> Never had an issue with either tube since, I cleaned the pins the other week after leaving them in their box for a year or so - tons of black gross residue came off which is either the pins oxidising or the new tube amp sockets.
> ...


I never even thought of this, how does someone clean the pins on their tubes?


----------



## gibosi

Toby Joe said:


> I never even thought of this, how does someone clean the pins on their tubes?



I use 200 grit sandpaper.


----------



## LoryWiv

Toby Joe said:


> I never even thought of this, how does someone clean the pins on their tubes?


There are many methods, would do a search on head-fi and the world-wide inter-web thing. I scrape them with a blunt knife, then use DeOxit on a toothbrush. YMMV.


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Hmmmm...it's not one per socket, rather two 6L6 each in their own socket. However, that is no different than how the 6AS7 are utilized in Elise, so output[ut impedance calculation should be the same.
> 
> Related question: Does the output impedance of preamp (driver) tubes matter or contribute? Or does this aspect not affect final output impedance as it only determines what is delivered to the output tube?
> 
> Thanks, @gibosi! I am not sophisticated with audio engineering but I enjoy learning what I can, as pertinent to maximizing enjoyment from my amp. without blowing it up.



A triode-strapped 6L6 is a single triode. A 6AS7G is a double triode. So the calculation is not the same. In your Elise, if you are running four triode-strapped 6L6, then yes, it would be the same as two double-triode 6AS7Gs.

And no, the output impedance of the drivers has no affect on the output impedance of the output tubes.


----------



## LoryWiv

gibosi said:


> A triode-strapped 6L6 is a single triode. A 6AS7G is a double triode. So the calculation is not the same. In your Elise, if you are running four triode-strapped 6L6, then yes, it would be the same as two double-triode 6AS7Gs.
> 
> And no, the output impedance of the drivers has no affect on the output impedance of the output tubes.


Thanks. I am actually just running 2 6L6, one per socket.


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks. I am actually just running 2 6L6, one per socket.



So the output impedance is 189 ohm. And from your experience, a pair of 6L6 works well with high impedance headphones.


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 20, 2020)

gibosi said:


> So the output impedance is 189 ohm. And from your experience, a pair of 6L6 works well with high impedance headphones.


Yes, and per your original astute comment that tubes can't read, I am listening to them now...they may not read but they sure can sing!


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Yes, and per your original astute comment that tubes can't read, I am listening to them now...they may not read but they sure can sing!



And I am often amazed at how versatile an OTL is. I am currently listening to six Melz 6N12S as output tubes, three per channel, a pair of Mullard EL42 drivers (configured as triode-strapped pentodes), and a Holland-made Philips GZ34 rectifier. And yes, this combination sings very well.


----------



## bcowen

Toby Joe said:


> I never even thought of this, how does someone clean the pins on their tubes?



Depends on the condition of the pins. If they're just dirty but not corroded or badly oxidized, good ol' isopropyl alcohol (but not _rubbing_ alcohol) and a pipe cleaner works nicely. Bend the end of the pipe cleaner over on itself, dip in alcohol, and scrub away. Pipe cleaners are also handy for cleaning octal tube sockets -- never stick a clean pin into a dirty socket (and I'll stop there with that part  ).  Just be sure the unit is off and preferably unplugged first. If the pins are oxidized but not visibly corroded, spray some DeOxit on that pipe cleaner, apply liberally to the pins, let sit for several minutes and then scrub off the residue with a clean pipe cleaner and alcohol.. May need to repeat depending on condition. A Magic Eraser can work for this too.

(cut in thirds to economize):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WW6VUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If the pins are corroded or heavily oxidized, then it's time for something abrasive like sandpaper or scotch brite. Follow with an alcohol scrub to remove any metal particles. Or, if the thought of manual labor makes you recoil in horror as it does me, these hard felt Dremel bits work nicely too. Fit nicely between the pins, and after you wear one down just a bit it will fit between the plastic base pin and the metal pins too.


----------



## adeadcrab

For tube cleaning I've been using the deoxit red liquid, painted onto the tubes with the applicator and warmed up in the amp. Then I fold a square of TP twice and gently wipe off the black oxidised residue. Apply deoxit after an initial clean, and after a few cleans this way I sometimes apply the gold deoxit liquid.


----------



## attmci

adeadcrab said:


> For tube cleaning I've been using the deoxit red liquid, painted onto the tubes with the applicator and warmed up in the amp. Then I fold a square of TP twice and gently wipe off the black oxidised residue. Apply deoxit after an initial clean, and after a few cleans this way I sometimes apply the gold deoxit liquid.


Both of these:

https://www.amazon.com/CAIG-LABORAT...it&qid=1600633419&sprefix=deox,aps,151&sr=8-8

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Paint-P.../320/400/N-5yc1vZbobkZ1z18iqdZ1z18is0Z1z18iso


----------



## adeadcrab

I have these in a two-for-one package with some applicators, almost time to restock the D100 red bottle
https://www.parts-express.com/caig-deoxit-d100l-25c-needle-dispenser-25-ml--341-220
https://www.parts-express.com/caig-deoxit-gold-g100l-2db-brush-bottle-74-ml--341-235


----------



## bpiotrow13

Toby Joe said:


> What are the date codes for your tubes?


Where can i find it? I do not see any numbers on the tubes unfortunately.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

adeadcrab said:


> I have these in a two-for-one package with some applicators, almost time to restock the D100 red bottle
> https://www.parts-express.com/caig-deoxit-d100l-25c-needle-dispenser-25-ml--341-220
> https://www.parts-express.com/caig-deoxit-gold-g100l-2db-brush-bottle-74-ml--341-235



What's interesting is that the Tube Survival Kit includes a Deoxit Gold that has a different code on it, GxMD. It's supposed to be the variant of G100L that is suitable for use at the high temperatures experienced in tube amps. Or is it just a marketing ploy to have audiophiles spend more? I don't see the Deoxit Gold GxMD available without the "survival kit".


----------



## adeadcrab

When I looked for the two links above I also found this, didn't read the description but now I see why they charge more for it then -

https://www.parts-express.com/caig-deoxit-gold-gx100l-2db-uv-brush-bottle-74-ml--341-228


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Before I buy this on a whim...anyone heard a Mullard 6as7g:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/N-O-S-MULLARD-ELECTRONIC-VALVE-TUBE-6AS7G-6080/193473233601


----------



## PsilocybinCube

PsilocybinCube said:


> Before I buy this on a whim...anyone heard a Mullard 6as7g:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/N-O-S-MULLARD-ELECTRONIC-VALVE-TUBE-6AS7G-6080/193473233601


The general look/design looks similar to an Rca but different.  It looks like it has more plates and a different overall structure.


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Before I buy this on a whim...anyone heard a Mullard 6as7g:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/N-O-S-MULLARD-ELECTRONIC-VALVE-TUBE-6AS7G-6080/193473233601



Mullard never manufactured a 6AS7G, so this tells you that it was sourced from another manufacturer. And even though "Made in England" is clearly printed, it wasn't made in England either. GEC was the only English company to make a 6AS7G. To my eyes, it looks like a Svetlana.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 20, 2020)

gibosi said:


> Mullard never manufactured a 6AS7G, so this tells you that it was sourced from another manufacturer. And even though "Made in England" is clearly printed, it wasn't made in England either. GEC was the only English company to make a 6AS7G. To my eyes, it looks like a Svetlana.



Your eyes are spot on, as usual.       UFO getters = Mother Russia.


----------



## Ripper2860

PsilocybinCube said:


> Before I buy this on a whim...anyone heard a Mullard 6as7g:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/N-O-S-MULLARD-ELECTRONIC-VALVE-TUBE-6AS7G-6080/193473233601



Looks like a Russian Svetlana to me.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ripper2860 said:


> Looks like a Russian Svetlana to me.


I'm just gonna consider this 'Head-Fi to the rescue.'  I looked at my Winged C and sure enough it looks just the same.  I had only compared the image to my 6520 and RCA 6AS7G tubes prior to posting.  Didn't even think to check the USSR stock.

Thanks!  

(The Made in England decals are pretty, though...)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 20, 2020)

I have a Sylvania 6AS7G that's stamped made in Germany that is actually a Russian Svetlana.  Tube construction is the best indicator of lineage.


----------



## fuzzroffe

LoryWiv said:


> Thanks. I am actually just running 2 6L6, one per socket.


How does it sound with 6L6s? I have a couple of old RCA metal can 6L6s looking for a project sometime...


----------



## LoryWiv

fuzzroffe said:


> How does it sound with 6L6s? I have a couple of old RCA metal can 6L6s looking for a project sometime...


I reported briefly *here*. In general I find RCA's warmer than Sylvanias (my VT-115A / 6L6 are Sylvie's) but I recognize their are a lot of other variables. Worth a try, though IMO.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 21, 2020)

I take the end of a q tip and remove most of the cotton, lay some alcohol on the tip and work the Qtip in the sockets, removes a lot of the black powder that builds up in there. (Hoping this helps with the new electrical "interference" that started couple days ago, capacitor going out?) Also have the little red and blue bottle of the Deoxit (the print is so small not sure what one does over the other) and like above just let them pins soak for a minute before removing. Now to find that blue bottle..


----------



## TK31 (Sep 21, 2020)

Bit of a tube/valve noob here, One of my 6N5PJ's burnt out on the amp (can see air got into it as well, theres some hazing on the top). What would be a replacement for it apart from another 6N5PJ? Reading this thread would be keen to try a different valve to see if I can personally hear a difference


----------



## JKDJedi

TK31 said:


> Bit of a tube/valve noob here, One of my 6N5PJ's burnt out on the amp (can see air got into it as well, theres some hazing on the top). What would be a replacement for it apart from another 6N5PJ? Reading this thread would be keen to try a different valve to see if I can personally hear a difference


Well... You said it best yourself... "Reading this thread". Grab a bag of popcorn. 😏


----------



## fuzzroffe

TK31 said:


> Bit of a tube/valve noob here, One of my 6N5PJ's burnt out on the amp (can see air got into it as well, theres some hazing on the top). What would be a replacement for it apart from another 6N5PJ? Reading this thread would be keen to try a different valve to see if I can personally hear a difference


Any 6AS7 or 6080 will work. If you're starting "cheap" the Svetlana 6AS7 is good, old JAN RCA 6AS7 is very good and pretty cheap too. Get one of each, I say


----------



## TK31

fuzzroffe said:


> Any 6AS7 or 6080 will work. If you're starting "cheap" the Svetlana 6AS7 is good, old JAN RCA 6AS7 is very good and pretty cheap too. Get one of each, I say


Thank you so much i'll try source them and give them a shot


----------



## fuzzroffe (Sep 24, 2020)

What’s the verdict on this RCA 6080? It’s the only 6080 I’ve seen with the same base as the 7236.


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> What’s the verdict on this RCA 6080? It’s the only 6080 I’ve seen with the same base as the 7236.


I've never heard one, and only for the bad reviews of it. Sylvania Gold Brand, Mullard, Tung Sol, GEC, are your better bets.


----------



## fuzzroffe

JKDJedi said:


> I've never heard one, and only for the bad reviews of it. Sylvania Gold Brand, Mullard, Tung Sol, GEC, are your better bets.


Nothing special then... I found it semi-locally, so the shipping wouldn’t have killed me  The same store also has the PhilipsECG 6080, maybe that’s a better bet.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I've never heard one, and only for the bad reviews of it. Sylvania Gold Brand, Mullard, Tung Sol, GEC, are your better bets.



I really think it depends on the amp it is plugged into, some make it really hard to distinguish between power tubes.

Speaking of which I just received some older Svetlana tubes in a package from Russia, they were all supposed to be defective but thus far only two were so free tubes for me. 6H5C predated the 6H13C's, I have one from 1955 I am anxious to try. I received these with a large batch of Melz tubes from 1963.    Using tubes in headphone stands causes a lot of friends to help out with "dud" tubes, this gentleman does not have a tube tester.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 24, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I really think it depends on the amp it is plugged into, some make it really hard to distinguish between power tubes.
> 
> Speaking of which I just received some older Svetlana tubes in a package from Russia, they were all supposed to be defective but thus far only two were so free tubes for me. 6H5C predated the 6H13C's, I have one from 1955 I am anxious to try. I received these with a large batch of Melz tubes from 1963.    Using tubes in headphone stands causes a lot of friends to help out with "dud" tubes, this gentleman does not have a tube tester.


Good point, the review was off a BOttlehead Crack user... So the RCA, if priced low, "might" be a good gamble.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Good point, the review was off a BOttlehead Crack user... So the RCA, if priced low, "might" be a good gamble.


I prefer the RCA 6as7g's but those are not terrible tubes. Everything is relative, I would rate it slightly better than some of the Phillips ECG I have seen come with the Cracks. Those used to be $10 tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I prefer the RCA 6as7g's but those are not terrible tubes. Everything is relative, I would rate it slightly better than some of the Phillips ECG I have seen come with the Cracks. Those used to be $10 tubes.


RCA 6as7g yes... 6080... Umm... Anyone have one here?


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 24, 2020)

This is a 1955 Svetlana winged C I got as a dud. I merely replaced the solder in the pins as I do all older Russian tubes and it tested better than most any 6as7g type I own. So far it sounds remarkable with a 1956 Melz driver tube I happen to like.
 I tried it in a couple other amps before I took a chance in this particular one.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> This is a 1955 Svetlana winged C I got as a dud. I merely replaced the solder in the pins as I do all older Russian tubes and it tested better than most any 6as7g type I own. So far it sounds remarkable with a 1956 Melz driver tube I happen to like. I tried it in a couple other amps before I took a chance in this particular one.


I almost forgot about the 67 you gave me... Gonna roll that with the Melz tonight. Maybe with some red wine...been a long week for me. 😑


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I almost forgot about the 67 you gave me... Gonna roll that with the Melz tonight. Maybe with some red wine...been a long week for me. 😑


I am taking a break from building amps for a bit but I may build one in purple heart just to see how many people I can annoy with the looks. This was my last in walnut.



So anyway this 55 has mids that just kind of slip onto your lap and lay there and purr.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> RCA 6as7g yes... 6080... Umm... Anyone have one here?



Well, um, yeah, like does a bear....oh nevermind.   

You want a regular one, a JAN designated one, or a Tung Sol labeled one?


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> Nothing special then... I found it semi-locally, so the shipping wouldn’t have killed me  The same store also has the PhilipsECG 6080, maybe that’s a better bet.



This falls strictly into FWIW territory as personal preference and the component in use are the ultimate arbiters, but I have heard at least a dozen different Philips ECG tube types and not a single one made me want to do anything but start looking for a cheap solid state amp as an upgrade.   That said, I have not heard an ECG 6080, and who knows...maybe it's an awesome tube. I wouldn't spend a lot to find out though...


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, um, yeah, like does a bear....oh nevermind.
> 
> You want a regular one, a JAN designated one, or a Tung Sol labeled one?


The one on the far right dates back to when I worked for RCA, they closed down soon after but I did not do THAT much damage.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I really think it depends on the amp it is plugged into, some make it really hard to distinguish between power tubes.
> 
> Speaking of which I just received some older Svetlana tubes in a package from Russia, they were all supposed to be defective but thus far only two were so free tubes for me. 6H5C predated the 6H13C's, I have one from 1955 I am anxious to try. I received these with a large batch of Melz tubes from 1963.    Using tubes in headphone stands causes a lot of friends to help out with "dud" tubes, this gentleman does not have a tube tester.



If you need any help soldering pins on those Melz, let me know.  Shouldn't take me any longer than, oh, 2 years...tops.    

Just pretend you've never seen my soldering.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> If you need any help soldering pins on those Melz, let me know.  Shouldn't take me any longer than, oh, 2 years...tops.
> 
> Just pretend you've never seen my soldering.


You would be my first choice, right after my cat Finnegan.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I am taking a break from building amps for a bit but I may build one in purple heart just to see how many people I can annoy with the looks. This was my last in walnut.
> 
> 
> 
> So anyway this 55 has mids that just kind of slip onto your lap and lay there and purr.


Whoever got this beautiful walnut amp sure is lucky...  

It's a big improvement from the BHC and has surely made 6sn7 tube rolling a great time.  Melds well with the HD800 and the DX7Pro feeding it quality sound.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Well, um, yeah, like does a bear....oh nevermind.
> 
> You want a regular one, a JAN designated one, or a Tung Sol labeled one?


That's so wrong on many levels.... 🤮


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That's so wrong on many levels.... 🤮



I'm just tryin' to 'roll' with the crowd.


----------



## Velozity

Paladin79 said:


> This is a 1955 Svetlana winged C I got as a dud. I merely replaced the solder in the pins as I do all older Russian tubes and it tested better than most any 6as7g type I own. So far it sounds remarkable with a 1956 Melz driver tube I happen to like. I tried it in a couple other amps before I took a chance in this particular one.




That amp is beautiful.  Very nice.


----------



## Paladin79

Velozity said:


> That amp is beautiful.  Very nice.



Thanks that is my personal amp. I prefer 6sn7 and 6as7g equivalents. I have amps with other tubes but I generally design around those two types. A few in here know the sound of my amps, the Incubus Elegan.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I am taking a break from building amps for a bit but I may build one in purple heart just to see how many people I can annoy with the looks. This was my last in walnut.
> 
> 
> 
> So anyway this 55 has mids that just kind of slip onto your lap and lay there and purr.


Are those the Sylvania 7a4 there, I just did my initial roll of these...my lord... wow. I have a new set of headphones....


----------



## fuzzroffe

Paladin79 said:


> Thanks that is my personal amp. I prefer 6sn7 and 6as7g equivalents. I have amps with other tubes but I generally design around those two types. A few in here know the sound of my amps, the Incubus Elegan.


Very nice! I've been thinking about building a 6SN7/6AS7 headphone amp myself (like I don't have enough tube amps). I've drawn up a preliminary design, but it's hard to find the time to build it at the moment


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Are those the Sylvania 7a4 there, I just did my initial roll of these...my lord... wow. I have a new set of headphones....


They are the military version of the 7A4, Sylvania VT-192's.


----------



## Paladin79

fuzzroffe said:


> Very nice! I've been thinking about building a 6SN7/6AS7 headphone amp myself (like I don't have enough tube amps). I've drawn up a preliminary design, but it's hard to find the time to build it at the moment


I started out designing four identical amps to be used for my local audiophile group. We will be doing a 6sn7 and equivalent blind listening to determine what we consider to be the best such tubes in the world. At least 50 participants.

I have built close to fifty after friends loved the sound, it helps distinguish between 6as7g's as well. I also bought a lot of woodworking equipment, each amp is one of a kind.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Pretty heated bidding on this one, and with 4 days to go. How high can it go? (I am sticking to my no-buying anymore 5998/421As policy this year)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Or...839532?hash=item48ede4ca6c:g:xEAAAOSwy2NfakE3


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Pretty heated bidding on this one, and with 4 days to go. How high can it go? (I am sticking to my no-buying anymore 5998/421As policy this year)
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Or...839532?hash=item48ede4ca6c:g:xEAAAOSwy2NfakE3


I'm questioning the date on that tube.


----------



## gibosi (Sep 25, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I'm questioning the date on that tube.



The date displayed on the tube is correct, 1958, week 4. However, the vendor's inference that it was manufactured in the 1940's is incorrect.

Edit: Sorry my typing can be pretty bad...  1958, week 5.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> The date displayed on the tube is correct, 1958, week 4. However, the vendor's inference that it was manufactured in the 1940's is incorrect.


I stand corrected...I question the date on the listing...(I meant to say)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm questioning the date on that tube.



Is it cooperating, or pleading the 5th?


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> The date displayed on the tube is correct, 1958, week 4. However, the vendor's inference that it was manufactured in the 1940's is incorrect.



Or week 5?  Or am I looking at that incorrectly?

Regardless, that was an awesome year in the annals of human history.  And not just for Tung Sol.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 26, 2020)

This is the Russian navy marking on a 1955 Svetlana winged C. 

There are some differences between it and later such tubes. It has extra shielding at the bottom as well as different getter holders. Now I need to recheck some from the sixties to see if any are similar. From the 60's through the 80's they all look the same, the ones I have anyway. 6H5C was on the early versions, 50's, 60's 6H13C on the later.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is the Russian navy marking on a 1955 Svetlana winged C.
> 
> There are some differences between it and later such tubes. It has extra shielding at the bottom as well as different getter holders. Now I need to recheck some from the sixties to see if any are similar.



Ahoy, matey!    

Man, the Russians had a way cooler Navy spec symbol than the US.  But if I had a choice of being on a US-made ship or a Russian ship going into war, I'd most certainly pick the former.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 26, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Ahoy, matey!
> 
> Man, the Russians had a way cooler Navy spec symbol than the US.  But if I had a choice of being on a US-made ship or a Russian ship going into war, I'd most certainly pick the former.


I should have Svetlana's coming from 1958 and 1959, they have the same getter holder as the 1955 but they lack the extra shield at the bottom the Russian navy version had. I need to retest later but I have not had a 6sn7 or 6080 test as high as the 55. Pins were a little corroded but I soon fixed those and replaced the solder. Not bad for a free tube lol. This shows the bottom shield better.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I should have Svetlana's coming from 1958 and 1959, they have the same getter holder as the 1955 but they lack the extra shield at the bottom the Russian navy version had. I need to retest later but I have not had a 6sn7 or 6080 test as high as the 55. Pins were a little corroded but I soon fixed those and replaced the solder. Not bad for a free tube lol. This shows the bottom shield better.


Will have to to inspect my copy, after some coffee. ☕


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 26, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Will have to to inspect my copy, after some coffee. ☕


Yours is a 60’s version as I recall. This is how a Russian friend put it:

"In the 50s, there were no large rockets, spaceships and strategic aircraft, so the best was done for the navy." 

We did the same thing, think of all the sought after VT-231's etc. from that era.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Yours is a 60’s version as I recall. This is how a Russian friend put it:
> 
> "In the 50s, there were no large rockets, spaceships and strategic aircraft, so the best was done for the navy."
> 
> We did the same thing, think of all the sought after VT-231's etc. from that era.


And out comes the sharpie... 😂


----------



## JKDJedi

Yup.. 67.. that was a great year. 🤗


----------



## JKDJedi

Morning Roll.....ON! #coffeeincluded


----------



## Paladin79

Here is a better photo of the 50's getter holders. A square with a circle on top, not the usual flying saucer look of the 60's on. Note the two bottom shields as well. This one also has a stamped date code at the bottom as well as next to the flying C logo.

Today I will run a 56 Melz along with the 55 Winged C. I do have a mountain of 63 Melz I want to hear after I re-soldered the pins. Today I will sort them into pairs and quad after a final run through on  my tube tester.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Morning Roll.....ON! #coffeeincluded



Nice pic!!!   The Incubus is looking pretty Russian right now.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Nice pic!!!   The Incubus is looking pretty Russian right now.


We mere mortals have to search for what Russian tubes we can find since you own most of the Fotons in the universe.


----------



## Ripper2860

Come on.  You know 95% of those boxes in Bill's pic are empty.  Give me the week and I'll have a mountain of strong testing Osram B65 hand labeled boxes posted.  😏


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Come on.  You know 95% of those boxes in Bill's pic are empty.  Give me the week and I'll have a mountain of strong testing Osram B65 hand labeled boxes posted.  😏


Hey it takes talent to assemble those little white boxes and hand write those names and numbers. Come to think of it though, he keeps asking me how to spell GEC.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> We mere mortals have to search for what Russian tubes we can find since you own most of the Fotons in the universe.



Says the guy with like 900 Melz 1578's....


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Says the guy with like 900 Melz 1578's....


Do those count? Lol


----------



## bcowen (Sep 26, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Come on.  You know 95% of those boxes in Bill's pic are empty.  Give me the week and I'll have a mountain of strong testing Osram B65 hand labeled boxes posted.  😏



I'll try and get a pic tonight of my WE 421A collection.  They're stored right next to my empty boxes full of WE 300B's -- all 1950's and testing above NOS according to what I wrote on the boxes.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I'll try and get a pic tonight of my WE 421A collection.  They're stored right next to my empty boxes full of WE 300B's -- all 1950's and testing above NOS according to what I wrote on the boxes.


I believe you have tons of GE boxes full of B65 too.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> I believe you have tons of GE boxes full of B65 too.



Shhhhhh!


----------



## bpiotrow13

Hi All, i have an opportunity to buy RCA 6SN7GTB. Could anyone tell how is it different to RCA 6SN7GT, which i think is equivalent.


----------



## JKDJedi (Sep 27, 2020)

bpiotrow13 said:


> Hi All, i have an opportunity to buy RCA 6SN7GTB. Could anyone tell how is it different to RCA 6SN7GT, which i think is equivalent.


Wrong thread. Might be slight build difference, GT came out In the 40s not sure when the GTB came out, maybe after 56' and they're built to warm up quick, like 10 seconds. I can look up exact dates or someone can chime in with that,


----------



## bpiotrow13

JKDJedi said:


> Wrong thread. Might be slight build difference, GT came out In the 40s not sure when the GTB came out, maybe after 56' and they're built to warm up quick, like 10 seconds. I can look up exact dates or someone can chime in with that,


Right, thanks.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Shhhhhh!


Ok, ok.


----------



## therremans

I recently found this NOS Edicron 6as7g for a low price of $10. Although, I haven’t made direct comparisons and have only an hour of listening time.. it sounded nice!.. better than my RCA gray or black plates I think. I will compare it to my TS 5998 next.

It is dated 12-15-86, I know that Edicron rebranded tubes from various countries, USA=RCA, Russia, etc. Because this is labeled Made in UK, I’m assuming it’s a Mullard mfg. I just cannot for sure confirm this.. I’ve had a hard time finding others like it. Anyone know for sure?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CH4o903EIOkEFsRcOFGymBIbikmEN5QC


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> I recently found this NOS Edicron 6as7g for a low price of $10. Although, I haven’t made direct comparisons and have only an hour of listening time.. it sounded nice!.. better than my RCA gray or black plates I think. I will compare it to my TS 5998 next.
> 
> It is dated 12-15-86, I know that Edicron rebranded tubes from various countries, USA=RCA, Russia, etc. Because this is labeled Made in UK, I’m assuming it’s a Mullard mfg. I just cannot for sure confirm this.. I’ve had a hard time finding others like it. Anyone know for sure?
> 
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CH4o903EIOkEFsRcOFGymBIbikmEN5QC


@Ripper2860 thoughts? #our6as7gexpert


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> I recently found this NOS Edicron 6as7g for a low price of $10. Although, I haven’t made direct comparisons and have only an hour of listening time.. it sounded nice!.. better than my RCA gray or black plates I think. I will compare it to my TS 5998 next.
> 
> It is dated 12-15-86, I know that Edicron rebranded tubes from various countries, USA=RCA, Russia, etc. Because this is labeled Made in UK, I’m assuming it’s a Mullard mfg. I just cannot for sure confirm this.. I’ve had a hard time finding others like it. Anyone know for sure?
> 
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CH4o903EIOkEFsRcOFGymBIbikmEN5QC



The UFO getter would indicate it's almost certainly Russian.  Mullard stopped making tubes altogether in 1982, and as far as I know never made a 6AS7 (6080 yes, but not a 6AS7).


----------



## gibosi

therremans said:


> I recently found this NOS Edicron 6as7g for a low price of $10. Although, I haven’t made direct comparisons and have only an hour of listening time.. it sounded nice!.. better than my RCA gray or black plates I think. I will compare it to my TS 5998 next.
> 
> It is dated 12-15-86, I know that Edicron rebranded tubes from various countries, USA=RCA, Russia, etc. Because this is labeled Made in UK, I’m assuming it’s a Mullard mfg. I just cannot for sure confirm this.. I’ve had a hard time finding others like it. Anyone know for sure?
> 
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CH4o903EIOkEFsRcOFGymBIbikmEN5QC



Yep, the "flying saucer" getter holder tells us it is a Svetlana.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Yep, the "flying saucer" getter holder tells us it is a Svetlana.





bcowen said:


> The UFO getter would indicate it's almost certainly Russian.  Mullard stopped making tubes altogether in 1982, and as far as I know never made a 6AS7 (6080 yes, but not a 6AS7).





gibosi said:


> Yep, the "flying saucer" getter holder tells us it is a Svetlana.


Is this tube NOS or New?


----------



## gibosi (Sep 30, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Is this tube NOS or New?



It is likely NOS. 6AS7G types were among the last vacuum tubes to be replaced by solid state devices. Similarly we often see WE 421As manufactured as late as the 1980's. And it's not uncommon to see these fairly late "Made in UK" Svetlana tubes. Buyer beware. 

Edit: On the other hand, the Svetlana isn't a bad tube and $10 is a good price.


----------



## therremans

Tube appears nos from the 80s. I agree that the getter and year is probably a giveaway. Also nice to know that even the “made in country“ tubes were misleading the customer. Regardless, it does sound nice and different than my RCAs. I’m glad to have it in my collection. Thank you everyone.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm holding firm on it being a Svetlana.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 30, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm holding firm on it being a Svetlana.



At least you now have something to hold that's firm.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Tube appears nos from the 80s. I agree that the getter and year is probably a giveaway. Also nice to know that even the “made in country“ tubes were misleading the customer. Regardless, it does sound nice and different than my RCAs. I’m glad to have it in my collection. Thank you everyone.



I have an Amperex branded pair, except they were made in the England part of Russia rather than the UK part.     Got them pretty cheap too, and they sound quite decent even though they aren't really Amperex.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> At least you now have something to hold that's firm.



It wouldn't be a problem if I could get the thought of you fondling your tubes out of my head.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Noooo! My Sylvania 7236 didn't light up last night... My youngest had a birthday party so I removed the tubes from the amps in the living room, but when I plugged it back in it stayed dark. I'm gonna try cleaning the pins first, and maybe try to re-solder them if that doesn't work.


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> Noooo! My Sylvania 7236 didn't light up last night... My youngest had a birthday party so I removed the tubes from the amps in the living room, but when I plugged it back in it stayed dark. I'm gonna try cleaning the pins first, and maybe try to re-solder them if that doesn't work.



Be sure to clean the socket too...


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> Be sure to clean the socket too...



What's the best way to do this?  I use isopropyl alcohol to clean tube pins, but I'm not sure that's the best idea for the sockets.  I've seen some people say just insert/remove a tube in the socket a few times, but others use Deoxit.


----------



## therremans

GDuss said:


> What's the best way to do this?  I use isopropyl alcohol to clean tube pins, but I'm not sure that's the best idea for the sockets.  I've seen some people say just insert/remove a tube in the socket a few times, but others use Deoxit.


I would blow it out with compressed air and then apply deoxit red first and then the gold. https://drive.google.com/file/d/177eEc_HzVTm-2aQiQb-IYuUjWxpQlDQn/view?usp=drivesdk


----------



## fuzzroffe

Flawless victory!


----------



## therremans

I have a doa tube I could try to fix.. What is the soldering iron process? Is it to heat up each pin to melt any cracked connections with the pins?


----------



## fuzzroffe

therremans said:


> I have a doa tube I could try to fix.. What is the soldering iron process? Is it to heat up each pin to melt any cracked connections with the pins?


Yeah, just enough to melt the solder, plus a couple of seconds just to be sure the wire inside is hot enough.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 1, 2020)

fuzzroffe said:


> Yeah, just enough to melt the solder, plus a couple of seconds just to be sure the wire inside is hot enough.


I use a different method but then I deal with a bunch of Russian tubes with very poor quality solder. I remove the old and replace it with  2 or 3 percent silver solder. I also add liquid rosin flux to insure the inside of the pins are very clean before applying new solder. This shows the solder removed as I apply liquid flux with a sharp pick, an easy way to get the flux into the pins. The flux cleans the metal so the solder will adhere. I do not trust rosin that has been inside the pins for several decades. 



.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 1, 2020)

fuzzroffe said:


> Noooo! My Sylvania 7236 didn't light up last night... My youngest had a birthday party so I removed the tubes from the amps in the living room, but when I plugged it back in it stayed dark. I'm gonna try cleaning the pins first, and maybe try to re-solder them if that doesn't work.


This might sound dumb...is you amp plugged in? Err nevermind... I see I'm late to the party .. as you were... 😁


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 1, 2020)

You're right!!!  It did sound dumb!!  

He reflowed the solder on the pins and it came back to life.  Old solder can do some odd things to tubes.  I have intermittent static with one of my 7236 tubes and should probably give that a shot, as well.  Worked for a couple of 6SN7s I had, why not others.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> You're right!!!  It did sound dumb!!
> 
> He reflowed the solder on the pins and it came back to life.  Old solder can do some odd things to tubes!!


Did he or was it the cleaning... Haven't had my coffee yet....😁


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> What's the best way to do this?  I use isopropyl alcohol to clean tube pins, but I'm not sure that's the best idea for the sockets.  I've seen some people say just insert/remove a tube in the socket a few times, but others use Deoxit.



These work great for octal sockets.  Just dip in alcohol, or spray the end with Deoxit and then insert/remove in the socket contact several times.  Repeat until the end of a clean one comes back....clean (cut 'em in thirds to economize if you like). Everybody has their own method I'm sure -- this is just what I do as I prefer not to pour or spray anything directly into the socket for fear of flushing metal particles into a place they shouldn't be.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WW6VUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1






These work great for 9-pin sockets. Same thing...moisten with your elixir of choice, and then insert in the socket contact:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073ZLNZ7G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> Did he or was it the cleaning... Haven't had my coffee yet....😁




Yep.  He ran a soldering iron up and down the pins and presto change-o, it sprung back to life.


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> These work great for octal sockets.  Just dip in alcohol, or spray the end with Deoxit and then insert/remove in the socket contact several times.  Repeat until the end of a clean one comes back....clean (cut 'em in thirds to economize if you like). Everybody has their own method I'm sure -- this is just what I do as I prefer not to pour or spray anything directly into the socket for fear of flushing metal particles into a place they shouldn't be.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WW6VUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> ...



Hopefully those pipe cleaners make for a "clean sweet socket" too


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  He ran a soldering iron up and down the pins and presto change-o, it sprung back to life.


I bet he just forgot to plug in the amp..


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> These work great for octal sockets.  Just dip in alcohol, or spray the end with Deoxit and then insert/remove in the socket contact several times.  Repeat until the end of a clean one comes back....clean (cut 'em in thirds to economize if you like). Everybody has their own method I'm sure -- this is just what I do as I prefer not to pour or spray anything directly into the socket for fear of flushing metal particles into a place they shouldn't be.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WW6VUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> ...


I tried the pipe cleaners...but thinking I might have grab the arts and crafts version of the pipe cleaner, yellow, pink, bright blue ..  😂 I'll try that link thanks @bcowen


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> Hopefully those pipe cleaners make for a "clean sweet socket" too



I'm gonna leave that alone, especially since @Ripper2860 is lurking nearby...


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> Hopefully those pipe cleaners make for a "clean sweet socket" too



In all seriousness, I like that particular brand as the cotton fibers don't shred off. Not to suggest there aren't others that are just as good, but I will suggest _*not*_ to buy this particular brand for exactly that reason:


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> Did he or was it the cleaning... Haven't had my coffee yet....😁





JKDJedi said:


> I bet he just forgot to plug in the amp..



Oddly enough, he also forgot to plug in the soldering iron.


----------



## fuzzroffe

I have a power LED and 3 other glowing tubes, so I’m pretty sure there was power


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> In all seriousness, I like that particular brand as the cotton fibers don't shred off. Not to suggest there aren't others that are just as good, but I will suggest _*not*_ to buy this particular brand for exactly that reason:


And *not* these ...


----------



## JKDJedi

fuzzroffe said:


> I have a power LED and 3 other glowing tubes, so I’m pretty sure there was power


You cleaned it or resoldered..both? I'm sorry I STILL havnt had my coffee yet..


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> You cleaned it or resoldered..both? I'm sorry I STILL havnt had my coffee yet..


Let me find Starbucks on a map for you.   With all the wild fires you should be alert.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Let me find Starbucks on a map for you.   With all the wild fires you should be alert.


😂😂 I'm on it! And all this 7236 talk has me inspired... to roll a.....


----------



## fuzzroffe

JKDJedi said:


> You cleaned it or resoldered..both? I'm sorry I STILL havnt had my coffee yet..


I just cleaned it with fine emery paper. It didn’t look bad, so what I now *think* happened was that I inserted the tube wrong. I just tried, and the guide pin on this tube is small enough to go into the socket in any orientation. Doesn’t happen with any of my other tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860

Sorry @JKDJedi .  Wrong user.  Seems another person jumped in with a DOA tube and the profile pic is very similar.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Sorry @JKDJedi .  Wrong user.  Seems another person jumped in with a DOA tube and the profile pic is very similar.


lm f a o ... I was checking my tubes thinking it was mine that had the problem!!    no more surfing till coffee is in..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> And *not* these ...



LOL!  Yeah, probably not those.  I would imagine alcohol starts the dye dripping...


----------



## Paladin79

For just a quick clean on tubes I use a brass bristled brush. I also use tape head cleaner because it does not leave a residue but then I have an exhaust fan in my garage. When you use tray acrylic, solder pots, or tape head cleaner you best have proper ventilation.


----------



## Velozity (Oct 1, 2020)

fuzzroffe said:


> I just cleaned it with fine emery paper. It didn’t look bad, so what I now *think* happened was that I inserted the tube wrong. I just tried, and the guide pin on this tube is small enough to go into the socket in any orientation. Doesn’t happen with any of my other tubes.




This also happened to me the first time I used 7236.  I inserted them wrong because the guide pin is shallow enough to fit into the center hole on some sockets.  I thought I had duds!

By the way, these brushes work great for using Deoxit to clean octal sockets.  I picked up a pack of 25 at Micro Center:

https://caig.com/product/connector-cleaning-brush-ab-25/


----------



## therremans

Success in bringing it back from the dead. This tube arrived doa and never powered up prior to the iron.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Success in bringing it back from the dead. This tube arrived doa and never powered up prior to the iron.


Ohhh National Union... ❤️ Please posts thoughts of that beauty on the Darkvoice thread.. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii.348833/page-262


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Uh, the 5998s on Woo Audio just jumped to $449 a single tube. Holy cow!


----------



## therremans

Wow, well do not pay it! Although they are expensive, they can still be found on eBay for around $100. I picked mine up for $75 a few weeks ago when my offer was accepted.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

therremans said:


> Wow, well do not pay it! Although they are expensive, they can still be found on eBay for around $100. I picked mine up for $75 a few weeks ago when my offer was accepted.


I got one for 75 euros.  Of course, those deals go quick these days.  It seems like 150-175 is the median price.
The tube is super spacious and has a good sound.  I don't personally think it's 100% worth the asking price, but now that I own one, I do see what the fuss is about.  I think that 100-125 is a more fair price.
There are such good alternatives.  Heck, you can buy a Thomson 6080 or Winged C for dirt cheap and they sound great.


----------



## therremans

Agreed, not necessary but it was worth it to me and I would have paid even that $100-$125 price. I ran RCA 6AS7Gs, Chatham 6080 and then settled on a Tung Sol 7236. The 7236 was my preferred tube and the only power tube I would use. But always wanting the 5998 to compare it to. It is spacious and open, with great dynamics and clarity. Not as clinical or solid-state sounding as the 7236 and to me has a more full sound. I sometimes would go to the RCA black plates for this when I was running the 7236 but would eventually miss the detail and go back to the 7236. Now I don't ever feel that need to switch power tubes for any genre of music.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Agreed, not necessary but it was worth it to me and I would have paid even that $100-$125 price. I ran RCA 6AS7Gs, Chatham 6080 and then settled on a Tung Sol 7236. The 7236 was my preferred tube and the only power tube I would use. But always wanting the 5998 to compare it to. It is spacious and open, with great dynamics and clarity. Not as clinical or solid-state sounding as the 7236 and to me has a more full sound. I sometimes would go to the RCA black plates for this when I was running the 7236 but would eventually miss the detail and go back to the 7236. Now I don't ever feel that need to switch power tubes for any genre of music.


Adds an extra layer of music as some put it.. a very nice tube.


----------



## kkrazik2008

CaptainFantastic said:


> Uh, the 5998s on Woo Audio just jumped to $449 a single tube. Holy cow!


Now that is highway robbery! Is there version the Tung-sol?


----------



## JKDJedi

kkrazik2008 said:


> Now that is highway robbery! Is there version the Tung-sol?


But you get free shipping 😂
https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998-each


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> But you get free shipping 😂
> https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998-each



Only if you are in the U.S. -- For international orders the shipping is free for $598 and above orders on Woo products only.  

To be clear, I have all the 5998s I need. Not considering this madness.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> But you get free shipping 😂
> https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998-each



Yeah, but no power cable.  How are you supposed to listen to a tube without power?


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> I got one for 75 euros.  Of course, those deals go quick these days.  It seems like 150-175 is the median price.
> The tube is super spacious and has a good sound.  I don't personally think it's 100% worth the asking price, but now that I own one, I do see what the fuss is about.  I think that 100-125 is a more fair price.
> There are such good alternatives.  Heck, you can buy a Thomson 6080 or Winged C for dirt cheap and they sound great.


The 5998 matched with the right driver tube can be magical and if you can find a military version of the Winged C then you have something special as well.


----------



## therremans

Can you provide some information on the preferred military spec winged-c?


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 9, 2020)

I own one from 1955, Russian Navy anchor on tube, additional shielding just below the bottom mica. Tubes from this period were called 6H5C, 6h13C is the newer designation.

Finding one is not easy, a Russian friend gifted me this one. I usually push this with Melz 1578's and I own some fairly rare variations on those as well. These are tubes I would never sell.


----------



## Dogmatrix

Bought this one on Thursday $5.50 + $8.80 shipping US $
Date on the pick is a little concerning but the description was specific 6h5c 1955 so see what turns up , coming from Russia might take a while


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 9, 2020)

Dogmatrix said:


> Bought this one on Thursday $5.50 + $8.80 shipping US $
> Date on the pick is a little concerning but the description was specific 6h5c 1955 so see what turns up , coming from Russia might take a while


That is the one, nice find!  The pins can be a bit corroded on something that old. I generally clean out the old solder and add new silver solder after a thorough cleaning with liquid rosin flux. That tube should have an anchor on the glass but I bet it is on the other side.

This is off topic but if you ever find 1958 Melz that look like this with a flat plate, they are a personal favorite as well. Top tube is a 58 with perforated plates but it is damaged. 6sn7 equivalent.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> This is off topic but if you ever find 1958 Melz that look like this with a flat plate, they are a personal favorite as well. Top tube is a 58 with perforated plates but it is damaged. 6sn7 equivalent.


I was wondering which is the flat plate. I see various prices on these and haven’t known which is the ideal design, so 1958 in particular? I see some have plates with holes in the rear side.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> This is off topic but if you ever find 1958 Melz that look like this with a flat *solid* plate, they are a personal favorite as well. Top tube is a 58 with perforated plates but it is damaged. 6sn7 equivalent.



*^^^^^^^^ *
(fixed this for you)


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 10, 2020)

therremans said:


> I was wondering which is the flat plate. I see various prices on these and haven’t known which is the ideal design, so 1958 in particular? I see some have plates with holes in the rear side.


The one at the bottom does not have the holes, I also have a 1956 made the same way. They are identical to the coveted 1578's except for the plate. I like the early years on the Melz tubes, 63 is my favorite on the 1578 version. It could be 58 was the year they switched over to the plate with holes, or maybe they ran out of one plate or the other and reverted back. @bcowen has several Melz from the fifties but the do not have the same bottom mica or metal wings as the top.

The 58 solid plate IMHO has a better bass thump than the perforated 58 version yet wonderful mids and highs like the sought after 1963 holes in plates. These tubes vary a lot, some from the 80's have nearly overwhelming mids.

This is a better place to get more info on the Melz, since it is off topic here.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-163#post-15904227

I designed an amp around the 6sn7 and 6as7g so I tend to think of them in pairs, I prefer the sound of the Tung Sol 5998 as a baseline. I own several types of power tubes but have access to most likely the best selection of 6sn7 equivalents known to man.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, the only American companies that manufactured the 6AS7G are RCA and Chatham/Tung-Sol. So your IBM and Ken-Rad are likely re-brands. Outside of the US, British GEC/Marconi/Osram and Soviet Svetlana also manufactured this tube.
> 
> And I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the major Japanese companies - Toshiba, NEC, Hitachi or Matsushita - also manufactured the 6AS7G, but so far, all I have seen are RCA re-brands from these companies. However, there is evidence to suggest that one or more of these Japanese companies did manufacture the 6080.



What about this 6AS7G? Having read above, National never manufactured it. Is it an RCA or something Japanese?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 10, 2020)

That National is a Russian Svetlana tube.

The almost perfectly even bottom flashing and the tell-tale 'flying saucer' getter holders is a definite tip-off.


----------



## Paladin79

The 55 flying C Navy version has different getter holders and they are connected to the bottom shield. On all newer Svetlana, the bottom mica has four triangular cutouts. That is where the shields attach on the military version.


----------



## JKDJedi

The Bad Boy & a GEC...


----------



## CaptainFantastic

@JKDJedi Looks great, that GEC. Quick question(s). How does the GEC compare to the 5998/421A? And do the GEC A1834 and CV2523 sound the same?


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> @JKDJedi Looks great, that GEC. Quick question(s). How does the GEC compare to the 5998/421A? And do the GEC A1834 and CV2523 sound the same?


From this thread they do, those with half dozen of these guys can't tell the difference. Have another one coming in with the round base next week. These are not as analytical as the 421a/5998. They are more on the lush side with the smoothest bass of their own character.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> The Bad Boy & a GEC...


Great photo and it’s nice to see you are using proper tubes with an Incubus amp, just don’t let some guy (@bcowen) talk you into experimenting with other tubes.


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Oct 10, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> From this thread they do, those with half dozen of these guys can't tell the difference. Have another one coming in with the round base next week. These are not as analytical as the 421a/5998. They are more on the lush side with the smoothest bass of their own character.



Thanks. Sounds like it would be a nice addition to the collection at some point. I have two Tung Sol 6AS7G and I wouldn't say they are lusher sounding than the 5998s.

What's a regular price range for the GECs in 2020?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> The Bad Boy & a GEC...



Where'd you get that GEC?  You're holding out on us, which is totally unacceptable.  Details, damnit.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 10, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Great photo and it’s nice to see you are using proper tubes with an Incubus amp, just don’t let some guy (@bcowen) talk you into experimenting with other tubes.


L M F A O..   Experimental tubes are saved for the other amp.. (except for the occasional 7N7 tube)


CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. Sounds like it would be a nice addition to the collection at some point. I have two Tung Sol 6AS7G and I wouldn't say they are lusher sounding than the 5998s.
> 
> What's a regular price range for the GECs in 2020?


If your lucky and blessed like I am, members here will sell them to you at half the asking price. ( have the same Tung Sol tube on my other amp at the moment, Chatham 6AS7G, not the same animal as the GEC, probably the best of all British tubes )


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Great photo and it’s nice to see you are using proper tubes with an Incubus amp, just don’t let some guy (@bcowen) talk you into experimenting with other tubes.



I would _never_ do that.

@JKDJedi have you tried a GEC KT-77 yet?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I would _never_ do that.
> 
> @JKDJedi have you tried a GEC KT-77 yet?


Was the amp supposed to snap crack and pop like that!?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Was the amp supposed to snap crack and pop like that!?



Yes.

(it gets quieter after the transformer burns away some insulation).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yes.
> 
> (it gets quieter after the transformer burns away some insulation).


Jedi @bcowen now handles warranty on your amp so it sucks to be you 😝


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 10, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Where'd you get that GEC?  You're holding out on us, which is totally unacceptable.  Details, damnit.



If you look closely the "C" is written in with white paint pen.  

Seriously -- I've heard from a trusted source that GEC 6080s are vastly over-rated, but that the GEC 6AS7G tube is a very good tube and somewhat difficult to source.


----------



## attmci

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. Sounds like it would be a nice addition to the collection at some point. I have two Tung Sol 6AS7G and I wouldn't say they are lusher sounding than the 5998s.
> 
> What's a regular price range for the GECs in 2020?


The GEC is overpriced. The price will crash soon like the US stock market. LOL


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 10, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Jedi @bcowen now handles warranty on your amp so it sucks to be you 😝





attmci said:


> The GEC is overpriced. The price will crash soon like the US stock market. LOL


😏


----------



## intoitreviews

Very helpful thread!


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Ripper2860 said:


> If you look closely the "C" is written in with white paint pen.
> 
> Seriously -- I've heard from a trusted source that GEC 6080s are vastly over-rated, but that the GEC 6AS7G tube is a very good tube and somewhat difficult to source.



I think the GEC 6080 is a fantastic sounding tube, sitting between a Mullard 6080 and GEC 6AS7G in terms of tonality; its only technical weakness seems to be a bit of roll off in the lower mids->bass. But the price on them has skyrocketed the last 2 years, likely not worth the asking price now. They were definitely still great value when at $50-60 AUD each. Same with the 6AS7G... price seems to have doubled. Incredible sounding tube but becoming unobtainable for a reasonable price, recent auctions have been ridiculous


----------



## adeadcrab

Guys, the 6AS7GA as a tube preamp to the THX789 is really good. Output from the tube amp itself is a little bloated and slow in the bass, but from the preamp output the 789 tightens it up but stays nice and tubey-sounding.


----------



## JamieMcC (Oct 13, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> If you look closely the "C" is written in with white paint pen.
> 
> Seriously -- I've heard from a trusted source that GEC 6080s are vastly over-rated, but that the GEC 6AS7G tube is a very good tube and somewhat difficult to source.



The GEC 6080 can often be found with Valvo branding and for a fraction of the price for a GEC branded one. Look out for the gec factory markings on the glass a number of mine also have the German think it's called the  Bundeswehr eagle military mark on the glass.


----------



## gibosi

JamieMcC said:


> The GEC 6080 can often be found with Valvo branding and for a fraction of the price for a GEC branded one. Look out for the gec factory markings on the glass a number of mine also have the German think it's called the  Bundeswehr eagle military mark on the glass.



And I have seen Mullard 6080 with Valvo branding as well. And since Valvo never manufactured the 6080, it is necessary to closely examine these tubes to determine who actually made them.


----------



## JamieMcC

gibosi said:


> And I have seen Mullard 6080 with Valvo branding as well. And since Valvo never manufactured the 6080, it is necessary to closely examine these tubes to determine who actually made them.



Absolutely study getters, plates and support rods micas extra and be certain you have a match. Save a GEC 6080 image and zoom in on the construction details to compare.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 22, 2020)

Say hello to my new friend.  Should be here in a few days and NO, I did not pay the reflected sold price in the pic.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Ripper2860 said:


> Say hello to my new friend.  Should be here in a few days and NO, I did not pay the reflected sold price in the pic.



Very, very nice. Not sure how some people are lucky to have lower offers accepted. Usually my lower offers get rejected. I paid a little more recently because I really wanted one in its original box. This one came in about one week ago. It sounds great. I have two more tubes coming in, not 5998s or 421As. Will post about it once they are safely here.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Say hello to my new friend.  Should be here in a few days and NO, I did not pay the reflected sold price in the pic.


Welcome to the club 😁 #421a Congrats.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Say hello to my new friend.  Should be here in a few days and NO, I did not pay the reflected sold price in the pic.



This is the 6AS7G thread.  You can't post this here.

(yes, I'm jealous)


----------



## Wid

Got a pair of the Tung Sol 7238 inbound. Seller says they were bought directly from Woo as a matched pair, never used. I only need one for the Woo WA3 but having and extra never hurts. Running a Tung Sol 5998 right now


----------



## therremans

Wid said:


> Got a pair of the Tung Sol 7238 inbound. Seller says they were bought directly from Woo as a matched pair, never used. I only need one for the Woo WA3 but having and extra never hurts. Running a Tung Sol 5998 right now


Curious to hear your opinion versus the two. What amp are you running?


----------



## Wid

therremans said:


> Curious to hear your opinion versus the two. What amp are you running?




A Woo WA3+


----------



## JKDJedi

Wid said:


> Got a pair of the Tung Sol 7238 inbound. Seller says they were bought directly from Woo as a matched pair, never used. I only need one for the Woo WA3 but having and extra never hurts. Running a Tung Sol 5998 right now


Ahh yes the *Tung Sol 7236*...the baby brother of the 5998.. nice, You'll love em.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

5998s are definitely one of the most beautiful of the family


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Oct 23, 2020)

So, this came in. Silly question, is one supposed to remove the GEC sticker before using?


----------



## adeadcrab

Where are you guys finding these GEC / 421A tubes??


----------



## tintinsnowydog

CaptainFantastic said:


> So, this came in. Silly question, is one supposed to remove the GEC sticker before using?


Keep it on!! Very beautiful tube, enjoy. 



adeadcrab said:


> Where are you guys finding these GEC / 421A tubes??


They've become unobtainable recently it seems. I would say wait for the price on the GEC to go down, it's definitely inflated right now. As for 421A... I'm out looking too!


----------



## CaptainFantastic

It depends. I think most regulars in this thread have a better sense of where to look and how to get them at good prices. I just wanted to build a small supply before prices go even higher, but I am sure there could have been better ways to go about it. I prioritized getting quality (posted as NOS/NOS-strength) over good deals. 

My first 421A I found by doing a search in the For Sale thread here. There had been a posting from a Swedish member (who builds tube amps I believe) a year back. He had sold 4 (to someone here, see above) and luckily he still had the fifth in storage for me. It was in perfect condition (NOS advertised) and sounds great. The next 5 I got on eBay from sources I did some research on. I think the 7236 Tung Sols posted just a bit above were also for sale here, so keep an eye on that thread. It's best to buy from a fellow Head-Fier you can trust.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> It's best to buy from a fellow Head-Fier you can trust.



Awwww, man.  Guess I'll have to go sell on Ebay now.



j/k....Very good advice IMO.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> So, this came in. Silly question, is one supposed to remove the GEC sticker before using?



If it were mine, I wouldn't touch that sticker.


----------



## Wid

CaptainFantastic said:


> It depends. I think most regulars in this thread have a better sense of where to look and how to get them at good prices. I just wanted to build a small supply before prices go even higher, but I am sure there could have been better ways to go about it. I prioritized getting quality (posted as NOS/NOS-strength) over good deals.
> 
> My first 421A I found by doing a search in the For Sale thread here. There had been a posting from a Swedish member (who builds tube amps I believe) a year back. He had sold 4 (to someone here, see above) and luckily he still had the fifth in storage for me. It was in perfect condition (NOS advertised) and sounds great. The next 5 I got on eBay from sources I did some research on. I think the 7236 Tung Sols posted just a bit above were also for sale here, so keep an eye on that thread. It's best to buy from a fellow Head-Fier you can trust.



Indeed they were. Always checking the for sale section. Got lucky


----------



## therremans

Can someone link me the sales thread here? I couldn’t find it..


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Can someone link me the sales thread here? I couldn’t find it..



There are several.  Usually people list tubes in the Amplification or Cables/Speakers/Accessories areas, but not always...

https://www.head-fi.org/categories/for-sale-trade-and-feedback-forums.109/


----------



## CaptainFantastic

therremans said:


> Can someone link me the sales thread here? I couldn’t find it..



https://www.head-fi.org/forums/cables-speakers-accessories-for-sale-trade.6553/

They are generally posted here as far as I know. Don't expect a ton of tubes posts. Maybe 1 or 2 new ones per week?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bcowen said:


> If it were mine, I wouldn't touch that sticker.



Sounds like an order which I am going to go ahead and respect.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

By the way, what's the story of the GEC tube in relation to the 5998 and 421A? The latter two look quite similar in build, but I am looking at the GEC and it's very different. Still a beauty.

But man... the GEC in post 5946 from JKDJedi, the curve of the glass is even lower. That's the beauty standard as far as I am concerned. Is anyone willing to part with a specimen?  (I realize that I am showing my superficiality by evaluating on looks, but in my defense I am sure it sounds amazing too, that picture speaks 1000 words)
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-15912136


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> So, this came in. Silly question, is one supposed to remove the GEC sticker before using?


Don't take the sticker off. Nice, looks mint. Grabbed another GEC with the curved base (that's on loan to @bcowen for evaluation) saw that it was going low bid because he listed it wrong! 6sa7 instead of 6as7g... 🤣🤣


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> By the way, what's the story of the GEC tube in relation to the 5998 and 421A? The latter two look quite similar in build, but I am looking at the GEC and it's very different. Still a beauty.
> 
> But man... the GEC in post 5946 from JKDJedi, the curve of the glass is even lower. That's the beauty standard as far as I am concerned. Is anyone willing to part with a specimen?  (I realize that I am showing my superficiality by evaluating on looks, but in my defense I am sure it sounds amazing too, that picture speaks 1000 words)
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-15912136


I just grabbed one with the curved base that's in loan to @bcowen for evaluation.


tintinsnowydog said:


> 5998s are definitely one of the most beautiful of the family


This by far best photo of the year here..very nice. 50mm or an iphone?


----------



## Wid

Here is a couple more tubes I have, the Sylvania 7236 I was able to get here on Headfi. The other I just bought for the fact it had a good review but knew practically nothing about it. Was advertised  it was from the SED factory in St Petersburg. When i asked around about it this is what I was told. It sounds pretty darn good when paired with a set of Tesla drivers.

“Svetlana factory. Special quality control number 54, I don't know what industry it is for, but usually a number in the diamond means for military use. Also, according to a rectangular stamp, they are aged, i.e. manufactured, tested, then kept on shelves then retested. Such procedure was used for critical applications, when tubes were supposed to be replaced by the schedule in the field.”


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> Don't take the sticker off. Nice, looks mint. Grabbed another GEC with the curved base (that's on loan to @bcowen for evaluation) saw that it was going low bid because he listed it wrong! 6sa7 instead of 6as7g... 🤣🤣



That looks so good. I thought I was done looking for tubes and now you do this to me...

How often do these curved base models show up for sale (in good condition)? I am yet to see one, although I admit that I have been trying to stay away on purpose.


----------



## JKDJedi

Wid said:


> Here is a couple more tubes I have, the Sylvania 7236 I was able to get here on Headfi. The other I just bought for the fact it had a good review but knew practically nothing about it. Was advertised  it was from the SED factory in St Petersburg. When i asked around about it this is what I was told. It sounds pretty darn good when paired with a set of Tesla drivers.
> 
> “Svetlana factory. Special quality control number 54, I don't know what industry it is for, but usually a number in the diamond means for military use. Also, according to a rectangular stamp, they are aged, i.e. manufactured, tested, then kept on shelves then retested. Such procedure was used for critical applications, when tubes were supposed to be replaced by the schedule in the field.”


That's gotta be a super rare Winged C tube. Nice!


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> That looks so good. I thought I was done looking for tubes and now you do this to me...
> 
> How often do these curved base models show up for sale (in good condition)? I am yet to see one, although I admit that I have been trying to stay away on purpose.


This was was ify, I had to reglue the base and have it retested. It passed so my gamble paid off. I paid a third of what these usually go for.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Wid said:


> Here is a couple more tubes I have, the Sylvania 7236 I was able to get here on Headfi. The other I just bought for the fact it had a good review but knew practically nothing about it. Was advertised  it was from the SED factory in St Petersburg. When i asked around about it this is what I was told. It sounds pretty darn good when paired with a set of Tesla drivers.
> 
> “Svetlana factory. Special quality control number 54, I don't know what industry it is for, but usually a number in the diamond means for military use. Also, according to a rectangular stamp, they are aged, i.e. manufactured, tested, then kept on shelves then retested. Such procedure was used for critical applications, when tubes were supposed to be replaced by the schedule in the field.”


@Paladin79 is the resident expert on Soviet tubes and could probably illuminate you as to the meaning of the the 54 (which I would assume is a year...).

There are a ton of older Svetlana tubes on ebay right now with the 6H5C insignia.

And as I'm sure many of you have seen, somebody from Japan is selling a veritable plethora of 5998 tubes on ebay at a reasonable price (relative to recent prices).


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> This was was ify, I had to reglue the base and have it retested. It passed so my gamble paid off. I paid a third of what these usually go for.



Yes, congrats on that. I know that bad feeling when a gamble doesn't pay off. For me it was with a 5998, so the hit wasn't that bad.

Is there a name for the model with this particular glass curve profile? For example here are two for sale at too high a price for the condition they are probably in, but they don't at all have the same glass curve as the two you showed, even though one does have a curved base. Mine has something in between yours and these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313260542102


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Yes, congrats on that. I know that bad feeling when a gamble doesn't pay off. For me it was with a 5998, so the hit wasn't that bad.
> 
> Is there a name for the model with this particular glass curve profile? For example here are two for sale at too high a price for the condition they are probably in, but they don't at all have the same glass curve as the two you showed, even though one does have a curved base. Mine has something in between yours and these.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/313260542102


for two GECs... that's not a bad price, and the base I believe is different from years produced, not a GEC expert but I'm almost sure it's either the year produced or manufacturing plant. Probably both.


----------



## adeadcrab

JKDJedi said:


> That's gotta be a super rare Winged C tube. Nice!


My russian 6H13C have the winged C logo.. they were the cheapest option tubes for me back in 2015 - that's why I bought 4 or 5 pairs.. now I see them going for $50 USD + !
Is there a difference in Russian tubes?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> This was was ify, I had to reglue the base and have it retested. It passed so my gamble paid off. I paid a third of what these usually go for.



You did a commendable gluing job.  I'm sending all my loose base tubes to you from now on.


----------



## bcowen




----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2020)

*Tung Sol 6520*

Some build differences between the two, hard to tell which one is older but I'm guessing the one on the left? The right is date stamped 75' (left tube not stamped). The left domino plates are grey with smaller dimples, micas are larger and the whole assembly sits lower.


----------



## raindownthunda

Joined the club recently, does not disappoint!


----------



## raindownthunda

JKDJedi said:


> *Tung Sol 6520*
> 
> Some build differences between the two, hard to tell which one is older but I'm guessing the one on the left? The right is date stamped 75' (left tube not stamped). The left domino plates are grey with smaller dimples, micas are larger and the whole assembly sits lower.



Very interesting. Can you hear a difference in the sound?


----------



## JKDJedi

raindownthunda said:


> Joined the club recently, does not disappoint!


Hard to beat that glow.


----------



## JKDJedi

raindownthunda said:


> Very interesting. Can you hear a difference in the sound?


I haven't put in the miles on these guys to tell, but from memory..they sound identical. I might chime in next week or PM you later on _if_ I do hear a difference.


----------



## bcowen

raindownthunda said:


> Joined the club recently, does not disappoint!



Quit taking better pictures than me.  Only @JKDJedi is allowed to do that.    

Seriously, gorgeous pic...and I'm _really_ liking this tube paired with a '55 ribbed plate Foton 6N8S. Didn't light my fire with a few others drivers, but the Foton is making it sing. And I've only scratched the surface...the rightful owner will have to take it from here.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

JKDJedi said:


> for two GECs... that's not a bad price, and the base I believe is different from years produced, not a GEC expert but I'm almost sure it's either the year produced or manufacturing plant. Probably both.


They seem to not be a bad market price, but definitely much more than I would be willing to pay.


JKDJedi said:


> I just grabbed one with the curved base that's in loan to @bcowen for evaluation.
> 
> This by far best photo of the year here..very nice. 50mm or an iphone?


I wish my phone could take such nice photos  50mm though I am no photography expert


----------



## Wid

Happy to report I got the twins today. Both arrived safe and working.


----------



## JKDJedi

tintinsnowydog said:


> They seem to not be a bad market price, but definitely much more than I would be willing to pay.
> 
> I wish my phone could take such nice photos  50mm though I am no photography expert


Nice pic 👍


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Here are the all the different GEC models I own. As far as I have read and seen, the shape of the glass and the shape of the getter delineates early and later construction, and black bases were only used on early construction tubes. Curved bases were used irrespective of dating based on other tubes posted in this thread (some curved bases are as late as T= 1962, and I have never seen a CV2523 military models with a curved base-these tend to be later dated. From left to right

1. Marconi flat D getter long glass black curved base (unknown date, but marked JJ)
2. Marconi flat D getter long glass brown curved base (KE 4 = 1955)
3. Osram cup getter brown straight base (LH 4 = 1956)
4. Marconi cup getter brown straight base (XL = 1966)
5. GEC cup getter grown straight base (XE = 1966)

4th tube is interesting as it has an original 6AS7 only stamp, and the additional CV2523 stamp is both newer and seems to be added later. The black base Marconi did not have a silk-screen but was painted on instead, and has mostly rubbed off so no date code unfortunately.

I think this is sufficient proof that the bases don't impact on sound quality, nor reflect vintage. I hear a slight difference between left 2 tubes and the others, and they are both flat d getters. They are warmer and have more bass bloom. This could however just be a result of more use and approaching the end of their life; they both test dangerously close to minimum values and were bought very cheap. I hear no difference between tube 3 (cup getter but long glass) and the right 2 tubes, despite the glass shape difference. Bottom line is, all GECs sound fantastic.








The curved brown base is the only one which has a solid chrome top; all others are clear glass. The black base Marconi has discolouration at the top presumably due to extended use or from factory burn in. 








The two types of getter shown here.


----------



## bcowen

tintinsnowydog said:


> Here are the all the different GEC models I own. As far as I have read and seen, the shape of the glass and the shape of the getter delineates early and later construction, and black bases were only used on early construction tubes. Curved bases were used irrespective of dating based on other tubes posted in this thread (some curved bases are as late as T= 1962, and I have never seen a CV2523 military models with a curved base-these tend to be later dated. From left to right
> 
> 1. Marconi flat D getter long glass black curved base (unknown date, but marked JJ)
> 2. Marconi flat D getter long glass brown curved base (KE 4 = 1955)
> ...



Great info!  Thanks for the detail and pics.  I'm a bit more fluent with GEC KT types but know very little about these so this is quite helpful.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

I remember earlier in this thread it was also mentioned that brown bases were used, as they may have been resistant to higher temperatures and better RF shielding. That would explain why I haven't seen a CV2523 with a black base. I stand to be corrected though. The shape of the bases may have also been affected and ordered differently based on constraints in usage e.g. if the tube were to be bottom mounted, or certain sockets or tubes mounted inside chassis may not have fit as curved bases and only flat bases (or vice versa).


----------



## JKDJedi

tintinsnowydog said:


> Here are the all the different GEC models I own. As far as I have read and seen, the shape of the glass and the shape of the getter delineates early and later construction, and black bases were only used on early construction tubes. Curved bases were used irrespective of dating based on other tubes posted in this thread (some curved bases are as late as T= 1962, and I have never seen a CV2523 military models with a curved base-these tend to be later dated. From left to right
> 
> 1. Marconi flat D getter long glass black curved base (unknown date, but marked JJ)
> 2. Marconi flat D getter long glass brown curved base (KE 4 = 1955)
> ...


Can we sticky this to the OP?


----------



## gibosi

tintinsnowydog said:


> I remember earlier in this thread it was also mentioned that brown bases were used, as they may have been resistant to higher temperatures and better RF shielding. That would explain why I haven't seen a CV2523 with a black base. I stand to be corrected though. The shape of the bases may have also been affected and ordered differently based on constraints in usage e.g. if the tube were to be bottom mounted, or certain sockets or tubes mounted inside chassis may not have fit as curved bases and only flat bases (or vice versa).



I have a pair of curved black base dated 1949. Brown bases were introduced later, in the 1950's. So the color, black or brown, might be useful for dating purposes. But otherwise, the base color or shape have no affect on the sound, and like you, I'm inclined to think that the curved bases (probably more expensive) would have been purchased for use in bottom mounted sockets. And the straight base (likely cheaper) for top-mounted sockets.


----------



## HiFiHawaii808

Hello, I am relatively new to tube rolling.  I got some new tubes for my Bottlehead crack and I have been testing them out.   For power tubes, I was able to purchase a Tung Sol 5998 and Western Electric 421a.   They both sound great.    Today, I swapped the tubes.  I removed the 421a and inserted the 5998.    Normally, as the tube powers up, the right channel comes on first, then after a few minutes the left channel comes on and then it sounds great after a few minutes.  Today, the left channel is no longer working.    I removed it and put the 421a back in and both channels work on that tube.    Do I just have a bad tube?  Or is there anything else I can do to get the left channel to work on this tube?


----------



## JKDJedi

HiFiHawaii808 said:


> Hello, I am relatively new to tube rolling.  I got some new tubes for my Bottlehead crack and I have been testing them out.   For power tubes, I was able to purchase a Tung Sol 5998 and Western Electric 421a.   They both sound great.    Today, I swapped the tubes.  I removed the 421a and inserted the 5998.    Normally, as the tube powers up, the right channel comes on first, then after a few minutes the left channel comes on and then it sounds great after a few minutes.  Today, the left channel is no longer working.    I removed it and put the 421a back in and both channels work on that tube.    Do I just have a bad tube?  Or is there anything else I can do to get the left channel to work on this tube?



*clean the pins *


----------



## HiFiHawaii808 (Oct 23, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> *clean the pins *


I'll look again.  I thought of that and didn't see any problems with them.

Edited to note that after examining the tube, there is no corrosion on the tube pins.   It looks brand new.   After listening to it again, the right channel seems to work fine and the left channel is not working at all.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

HiFiHawaii808 said:


> Hello, I am relatively new to tube rolling.  I got some new tubes for my Bottlehead crack and I have been testing them out.   For power tubes, I was able to purchase a Tung Sol 5998 and Western Electric 421a.   They both sound great.    Today, I swapped the tubes.  I removed the 421a and inserted the 5998.    Normally, as the tube powers up, the right channel comes on first, then after a few minutes the left channel comes on and then it sounds great after a few minutes.  Today, the left channel is no longer working.    I removed it and put the 421a back in and both channels work on that tube.    Do I just have a bad tube?  Or is there anything else I can do to get the left channel to work on this tube?


You can try reflow the solder inside the pins with an iron, 30 seconds on each pin and run the iron up and down it would do. I would also check all the solder joints in the amp itself, you never know where there may be a loose solder joint causing such issues. Do both heaters light up together immediately on startup and just no sound?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 23, 2020)

HiFiHawaii808 said:


> I'll look again.  I thought of that and didn't see any problems with them.


had something similar like that happen with a Bad Boy and @bcowen saved it with some re-soldering of the pins. I'd try a good cleaning of the pins (and sockets) before doing all that. @tintinsnowydog  beat me too it.. what he said.


----------



## HiFiHawaii808

tintinsnowydog said:


> You can try reflow the solder inside the pins with an iron, 30 seconds on each pin and run the iron up and down it would do. I would also check all the solder joints in the amp itself, you never know where there may be a loose solder joint causing such issues. Do both heaters light up together immediately on startup and just no sound?


Yes.  Both heaters light up.   I don't think it is the amp because when I put in a different tube, both channels work fine.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

HiFiHawaii808 said:


> Yes.  Both heaters light up.   I don't think it is the amp because when I put in a different tube, both channels work fine.


It's most likely not the heater circuit then (green wires). I would still reflow all the joints in the amp along with the tube pins just to be sure; simply unplugging/replugging a tube can be enough to disturb a loose or unstable joint in either piece.


----------



## JTbbb

Hello all, more help please!

I’ve bought a pair of Mullard 6080’s with the code AJ1 R6D1. I have figured most of it but am struggling with 6D, the year and month of manufacture. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

tintinsnowydog said:


> They seem to not be a bad market price, but definitely much more than I would be willing to pay.



The listing has ended. Did someone here grab them?  I resisted the temptation.

Always nice if someone here gets them and comes back to report with pics and overall condition.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Oct 24, 2020)

JTbbb said:


> Hello all, more help please!
> 
> I’ve bought a pair of Mullard 6080’s with the code AJ1 R6D1. I have figured most of it but am struggling with 6D, the year and month of manufacture. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.


I have some Mullard 6080 with almost the same code. The last few letters of Mullard/Philips coding can tell us some information; tubes before 1960 were 3 characters (e.g. R6D), and after 1960 were 4 characters (R6D1). The first R = Mullard Mitcham Factory. The 6 refers to a year ending in 6; 1956/66/76. Based off the AJ1 change code (AJ= 6080 tube type, 1= 1st revision) and being 4 characters, it cannot be 1956, and it is most likely 1966, not 1976. A photo would confirm this. D corresponds to the 4th month of 1966= April, 1 = 1st week. 



CaptainFantastic said:


> The listing has ended. Did someone here grab them?  I resisted the temptation.
> 
> Always nice if someone here gets them and comes back to report with pics and overall condition.


Hope they made an offer and got it for less than the asking price!


----------



## JTbbb

tintinsnowydog said:


> I have some Mullard 6080 with almost the same code. The last few letters of Mullard/Philips coding can tell us some information; tubes before 1960 were 3 characters (e.g. R6D), and after 1960 were 4 characters (R6D1). The first R = Mullard Mitcham Factory. The 6 refers to a year ending in 6; 1956/66/76. Based off the AJ1 change code (AJ= 6080 tube type, 1= 1st revision) and being 4 characters, it cannot be 1956, and it is most likely 1966, not 1976. A photo would confirm this. D corresponds to the 4th month of 1966= April, 1 = 1st week.
> 
> 
> Hope they made an offer and got it for less than the asking price!



Photo’s as requested, and thanks for the information. Oh, and those are not my fingers!


----------



## tintinsnowydog

JTbbb said:


> Photo’s as requested, and thanks for the information. Oh, and those are not my fingers!


Very nice, classic late 60's design. A great warm sounding tube with beautiful midrange, enjoy


----------



## CaptainFantastic

CaptainFantastic said:


> So, this came in. Silly question, is one supposed to remove the GEC sticker before using?



Update: unfortunately this beauty of a tube has issues. It is perfectly clean and I made sure of it myself before trying it in the amp. I also tried it in my two amps, both in excellent top-shape condition. The issue is therefore for sure the tube. I think what it has is called microphonics. (I am perfectly familiar with the term for cables, but not 100% sure this is what is meant by tube microphonics). Even with the volume on the amp at zero and no music playing, if I as much touch the volume knob or any part of the amp, there is a reverb in the right channel of the headphone. I tried multiple headphones and two amps as I said.

Now, when playing music and not touching the amp there are no issues, it sounds amazing. But I can't shake the feeling that there is an effect on the right channel and when I take the headphones off the right ear feels a bit odd, a bit like there was some pressure on it.

I checked with the seller and I can send it back. I will do so unless anyone can tell me how this can be resolved. I had the same issue with an NOS 421A. I had it tested by a fellow Head-Fi-er here and he found nothing wrong with it. Thanks for any advice.


----------



## Ripper2860

I know of no way to resolve tube microphonics other than tube dampers and that is also an unlikely resolution.  Unfortunately, microphonic tubes will almost always test well if that's the only issue.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I know of no way to resolve tube microphonics other than tube dampers and that is also an unlikely resolution.  Unfortunately, microphonic tubes will almost always test well if that's the only issue.


I tend to use very heavy bases for my amps so there is less chance of flag pole effect. A couple pounds of copper or 3/4 inch solid wood can make a difference. A few issues can be solved by re-soldering pins, I generally isolate the noise by adding a slight amount of torque to the pins themselves as the tube is operating in an effort to isolate the problem. You can learn a little by tapping on the glass but it never hurts to make sure the solder in the pins is still solid.


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> I know of no way to resolve tube microphonics other than tube dampers and that is also an unlikely resolution.  Unfortunately, microphonic tubes will almost always test well if that's the only issue.


So true.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 24, 2020)

Dreamy Combo.. Melz &* 6520 

*


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> _Dreamy Combo_.. Melz &* 6520
> 
> *



Yes, I'm sure it is a "dreamy combo."  

But to be clear, that "6520" appears to have "domino plates," and if so, it is actually a mislabeled 5998. And for reasons we can only guess, it appears that labelling 5998 as 6520 was a common practice within Tung Sol. However, a correctly labeled 6520 is simply a tweaked 6AS7G, per Tung Sol's data sheet.

http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 24, 2020)

gibosi said:


> Yes, I'm sure it is a "dreamy combo."
> 
> But to be clear, that "6520" appears to have "domino plates," and if so, it is actually a mislabeled 5998. And for reasons we can only guess, it appears that labelling 5998 as 6520 was a common practice within Tung Sol. However, a correctly labeled 6520 is simply a tweaked 6AS7G, per Tung Sol's data sheet.
> 
> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf


I wasn't gonna (be the first to) say it...😁. #stealofthecentury thanks for the confirmation. 👍
I've seen the regular plated 6520 and stay away from them, I just hunt for the Domino plated 6520 with the idea that they might actually be 5998.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> Yes, I'm sure it is a "dreamy combo."
> 
> But to be clear, that "6520" appears to have "domino plates," and if so, it is actually a mislabeled 5998. And for reasons we can only guess, it appears that labelling 5998 as 6520 was a common practice within Tung Sol. However, a correctly labeled 6520 is simply a tweaked 6AS7G, per Tung Sol's data sheet.
> 
> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf



I am confused, all the 6520s I've seen have domino plates, including the one I own and everyone here seemed to agree is a 6520. It even sounds different than a 5998.  Have I been fooling myself?


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 24, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am confused, all the 6520s I've seen have domino plates, including the one I own and everyone here seemed to agree is a 6520. It even sounds different than a 5998.  Have I been fooling myself?


The 6520 data sheets have a much lower output (700 transconductance) than what the 5998 do (1400 transconductance ), and with my ears these 6520 domino plated tubes put out some juice. I've never heard the regular plated 6520 and they're out there, but had no interest in grabbing one, but now I'm curious to hear one of them myself now,🤔. Are the 6520 domino plated tubes a cross between the two? Well to my ears they sound spectacular and highly musical, maybe a little smoother than a 5998 I use to own, or have I been fooling myself the same ... 🤣 #firstworldproblems


----------



## shafat777 (Oct 25, 2020)

Recently bought a Feliks Audio Elise. Stock psvane 6n13s power tubes sound good. However, the bass is boomy and kinda veiled ()not punchy enough). I was told that 6as7g power tubes can help with that. Just put in order for these.

https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/products/6as7g-rca-nos-gray-plates-1970s-p5

Anyone care to post any info on these. Any review or suggestion would be helpful.


----------



## therremans (Oct 25, 2020)

shafat777 said:


> Recently bought a Feliks Audio Elise. Stock psvane 6n13s power tubes sound good. However, the bass is boomy and kinda veiled ()not punchy enough). I was told that 6as7g power tubes can help with that. Just put in order for these.
> 
> https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/products/6as7g-rca-nos-gray-plates-1970s-p5
> 
> Anyone care to post any info on these. Any review or suggestion would be helpful.


Did you already order them? Quite expensive (or are these a rare version?), have you tried eBay?

You could try one of these Chatham 6as7g pair over the RCAs -Link , Link 2

or these Svetlanas, big fan of these and this looks like the correct period (mid 80s) of what I own but I can’t see the getters (dual UFO saucers) -Link

WE 421A - Link

Tung sol 5998 -Link

RCA (black plates 1950s I think) -Link


----------



## shafat777

Yes, I did put the orders in. Those are gray plates 1970s. My ultimate goal is to own the tung-sol 5998s that you linked but they are wayyyyy over my budget. I dont really wanna spend that much on power tubes since they dont affect the music so much, compared to the driver tubes. 

Thanks for all the link. If i can save up some extra cash, i ll def give those tung-sols a try.


----------



## JKDJedi

shafat777 said:


> Yes, I did put the orders in. Those are gray plates 1970s. My ultimate goal is to own the tung-sol 5998s that you linked but they are wayyyyy over my budget. I dont really wanna spend that much on power tubes since they dont affect the music so much, compared to the driver tubes.
> 
> Thanks for all the link. If i can save up some extra cash, i ll def give those tung-sols a try.


I don't know why you believe that but nothing could more than the contrary... they effect the music as much as the drivers do..


----------



## shafat777

I am glad that i was wrong about this. IF they do affect the sound as much, then i ll definitely spend big on my next pair of tubes. The only reason i got these rca's is becasue i wanted to try something else besides the stock psvane, maybe get a feel for the sound signature. Hope fully these will sound better than stock and help me decide which pair i should buy next to to improve the sound. Thanks for the clarification boss !!!


----------



## bcowen

shafat777 said:


> Yes, I did put the orders in. Those are gray plates 1970s. My ultimate goal is to own the tung-sol 5998s that you linked but they are wayyyyy over my budget. I dont really wanna spend that much on power tubes since they dont affect the music so much, compared to the driver tubes.
> 
> Thanks for all the link. If i can save up some extra cash, i ll def give those tung-sols a try.



I totally agree with the comments from both @therremans and @JKDJedi .  The RCA's you bought are fine and nice sounding tubes, but they're not anything special and you paid about 3X the price you can find similar ones on Ebay. You *are* getting assurance the tubes are genuine _*and*_ thorough testing from TubeWorld, you're just paying a big premium for it. And I like TubeWorld -- I've purchased (and will continue to purchase) tubes from them, just that some of their offerings are disproportionally priced relative to the market prices at times.  As to Jedi's comments, BOTH the power tube and driver tube can have a major impact on the sound. And further, finding the right _pairing_ of the two for your amp and your preferences is just as important as either tube alone. A glorious power tube paired with a non-synergistic driver tube (*and* vice-versa) can leave you wondering why all the hoopla about either of the tubes involved. There is no right or wrong -- it's all a matter of what scores for your preferences, but there are some tubes that are widely favored for good reason.


----------



## therremans

Well said @bcowen. The right combination is what you’re after here. Whenever I try to describe what I am hearing with a new tube, I know it’s never some definitive thing. It always varies but usually comes down to the combination of tubes used and headphones. Even the Tung Sol 5998 doesn’t sound great with everything. There’s also personal preferences or hearing the music differently, tube or amp build quality, etc. the point is you have to hear them for yourself to really know what they sound like with all the personal variables involved. (This is likely why I’ve bought and sold so many tubes now.)

My first power tube earlier this year was actually that 70s RCA grey 6as7g. I used it for months and liked it over the cheap Chinese tube it came with. It was a fine $10 tube. But I wanted to try others. I thought PSvane were pretty expensive and high quality new stock stuff. I wonder how it compares.

By the way, youcan still score 5998s at a better price, (under $100 each) but it takes time. But, yeah a pair will still be expensive.


----------



## attmci

5998 is still cheap.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-to-S...760556?hash=item23de058aec:g:F8wAAOSw6ntfOfBr


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> 5998 is still cheap.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-to-S...760556?hash=item23de058aec:g:F8wAAOSw6ntfOfBr


looks like they got relisted for twice what they got it for..   https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-pair-of-...brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2047675.c101197.m1850

@therremans  5998 sound good w/ everything


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> Yes, I'm sure it is a "dreamy combo."
> 
> But to be clear, that "6520" appears to have "domino plates," and if so, it is actually a mislabeled 5998. And for reasons we can only guess, it appears that labelling 5998 as 6520 was a common practice within Tung Sol. However, a correctly labeled 6520 is simply a tweaked 6AS7G, per Tung Sol's data sheet.
> 
> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf


I have a 6520 that is a cross btw the 5998 and the 6as7g in certain ways.  Performance-wise, I put it between the two tubes.  It is more neutral to my ears than both tubes, but less pleasing than the 5998.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> looks like they got relisted for twice what they got it for..   https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-pair-of-Tungsol-5998-tube-IBM-label-Domino-plate-Strong/324317063160?_trkparms=aid=1110009&algo=SPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=20200818142838&meid=e844b20b7db848fba8ae82eeb6fa4f54&pid=101197&rk=3&rkt=12&mehot=none&sd=154048760556&itm=324317063160&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=default&brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2047675.c101197.m1850
> 
> @therremans  5998 sound good w/ everything


Haha I found the same thing and was typing up that response, until I saw the lettering looked more worn on the pair currently for sale


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 25, 2020)

therremans said:


> Haha I found the same thing and was typing up that response, until I saw the lettering looked more worn on the pair currently for sale


The one you listed on the Darkvoice thread looks like a steal. Can someone decipher the test numbers on this tube? T1 60mA T2 56mA (seems low but I  might be confusing this with GM?)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/392991625519


----------



## shafat777

I think i m gonna return the gray plate ones. Instead was gonna focus on these. What do guys think?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264911401965


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 25, 2020)

shafat777 said:


> I think i m gonna return the gray plate ones. Instead was gonna focus on these. What do guys think?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/264911401965


oh oh..who grabbed them?
get these *lower getter* RCA

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Vintage-...312042&hash=item3dad764f90:g:LoAAAOSwTwxfi0cg
or
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...729729?hash=item289d898ec1:g:8dkAAOSwGz9fZOkI


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> oh oh..who grabbed them?
> get these *lower getter* RCA
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Vintage-...312042&hash=item3dad764f90:g:LoAAAOSwTwxfi0cg
> ...


Agreed. I didn’t look hard enough, those are better grabs. Still pricey when you consider what you can find NOS 1950s rca for. But not that bad.


----------



## shafat777

Sweet. thank brother. Grabbed the second pair.


----------



## gibosi (Oct 25, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The one you listed on the Darkvoice thread looks like a steal. Can someone decipher the test numbers on this tube? T1 60mA T2 56mA (seems low but I  might be confusing this with GM?)
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/392991625519



1966 week 48.

Edit: Oh, you are looking at test results not dates. lol


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Oct 25, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The one you listed on the Darkvoice thread looks like a steal. Can someone decipher the test numbers on this tube? T1 60mA T2 56mA (seems low but I  might be confusing this with GM?)
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/392991625519


Someone is watching this thread and grabbing all the linked tubes left right and centre! The test result will really depend on how their tester was calibrated. I can see the seller has an AVO Mk IV and the closest reputable data I know of is a VCM163 that tests 6AS7s at around 70mA new. Considering the 5998 has higher transconductance that may or may not make its plate current is higher, depends on settings. Would always be wary if the seller doesn't quote a reference value.



shafat777 said:


> Sweet. thank brother. Grabbed the second pair.


The RCAs are somewhat close in sound presentation to the 6n13s, they are quite warm, can sound a bit veiled especially in warmer amps. Their bass is pleasant though. If you are looking for a slightly more neutral or brighter option try the Tung Sol/Chatham 6080 (cheaper) or 6AS7G, or the 7236. These can be all had for less than or around the price of the RCAs you have bought there. There are several auctions for sets of tung sol 6AS7 on ebay right now.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> looks like they got relisted for twice what they got it for..   https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-pair-of-Tungsol-5998-tube-IBM-label-Domino-plate-Strong/324317063160?_trkparms=aid=1110009&algo=SPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=20200818142838&meid=e844b20b7db848fba8ae82eeb6fa4f54&pid=101197&rk=3&rkt=12&mehot=none&sd=154048760556&itm=324317063160&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=default&brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2047675.c101197.m1850
> 
> @therremans  5998 sound good w/ everything


Refer to my link and make an offer of $150. LOL


----------



## LoryWiv

tintinsnowydog said:


> I think the GEC 6080 is a fantastic sounding tube, sitting between a Mullard 6080 and GEC 6AS7G in terms of tonality; its only technical weakness seems to be a bit of roll off in the lower mids->bass. But the price on them has skyrocketed the last 2 years, likely not worth the asking price now. They were definitely still great value when at $50-60 AUD each. Same with the 6AS7G... price seems to have doubled. Incredible sounding tube but becoming unobtainable for a reasonable price, recent auctions have been ridiculous







GEC 6080 in Feliks-Audio Elise, drivers are Fivre 6V6. Loving every minute!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 3, 2020)

Card carrying member of the WE 421-A club.

'63 Melz hole plate 1578 driver paired with Western Electric 421A power tube and the sublime Incubus Elegan amplifier.


----------



## BackwardPawn

I've been going back and forth between Svetlana 6H13C and RCA 6AS7G black plate today with different types of music and, call me crazy, but I think I like the Soviet tube better (they're paired with an RCA 5693 Special Red in a La Figaro 339). The Svetlana tubes have been in my amp for the past few years and a perceived imbalance (which was in my source) sent me looking for other tubes.  They've got a nice clean high, decent mids and a punchy bass without much tube sound.  There is a mild grating quality to the high end after a while (but I am listening on Beyers).  On classical music, I can hear the different instrument separation and get enough bass out of it.  Not very much of a sound stage, though.  For classic rock, such as the Rolling Stones, Billy Joel, or Neil Young, its sharp, clean and punchy.

My RCAs were purchased from a factory going out of business, but tested like new (so I'm told).  I have to admit that I never listened to them when they arrived.  I just put them away in case they were ever needed.  I don't quite know how to describe them, but the work 'lazy' comes to mind.  Its a lazy tube.  Or maybe an artistic tube.  It can't be bothered to amplify the signal I'm sending it, instead it'll give me the broad strokes, add some nice warm bass, roll off the highs, and smooth the whole thing out with its thumb before it sends me its impression of music.  Now this isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I turned on a Beethoven symphony and it sounded awesome.  I couldn't hear the instruments the way I'm used to, but I really liked it and it seemed to add depth to the music.  Then I tried out some rock and didn't like it, to the point that I went back to the Svetlana tubes and all is right with the world again.

I think the RCAs will now be my go to tubes for symphonic music and the Svetlana tubes will live in the amp most of the time.  Is there some in between tube I should try out? Maybe something that isn't so dry as the Svetlana, but doesn't have quite so much bloom as the RCAs?


----------



## JKDJedi

BackwardPawn said:


> I've been going back and forth between Svetlana 6H13C and RCA 6AS7G black plate today with different types of music and, call me crazy, but I think I like the Soviet tube better (they're paired with an RCA 5693 Special Red in a La Figaro 339). The Svetlana tubes have been in my amp for the past few years and a perceived imbalance (which was in my source) sent me looking for other tubes.  They've got a nice clean high, decent mids and a punchy bass without much tube sound.  There is a mild grating quality to the high end after a while (but I am listening on Beyers).  On classical music, I can hear the different instrument separation and get enough bass out of it.  Not very much of a sound stage, though.  For classic rock, such as the Rolling Stones, Billy Joel, or Neil Young, its sharp, clean and punchy.
> 
> My RCAs were purchased from a factory going out of business, but tested like new (so I'm told).  I have to admit that I never listened to them when they arrived.  I just put them away in case they were ever needed.  I don't quite know how to describe them, but the work 'lazy' comes to mind.  Its a lazy tube.  Or maybe an artistic tube.  It can't be bothered to amplify the signal I'm sending it, instead it'll give me the broad strokes, add some nice warm bass, roll off the highs, and smooth the whole thing out with its thumb before it sends me its impression of music.  Now this isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I turned on a Beethoven symphony and it sounded awesome.  I couldn't hear the instruments the way I'm used to, but I really liked it and it seemed to add depth to the music.  Then I tried out some rock and didn't like it, to the point that I went back to the Svetlana tubes and all is right with the world again.
> 
> I think the RCAs will now be my go to tubes for symphonic music and the Svetlana tubes will live in the amp most of the time.  Is there some in between tube I should try out? Maybe something that isn't so dry as the Svetlana, but doesn't have quite so much bloom as the RCAs?


On point with your views.. and the in between is the Chatham 6as7g. 🙂


----------



## BackwardPawn

JKDJedi said:


> On point with your views.. and the in between is the Chatham 6as7g. 🙂


That's actually what I was looking at.  I'll order a pair and see if it'll tone down the shrillness a bit without messing with the music too much.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Card carrying member of the WE 421-A club.



Awesome!  Now only 4000 hours to go until it's broken-in.


----------



## bcowen

BackwardPawn said:


> That's actually what I was looking at.  I'll order a pair and see if it'll tone down the shrillness a bit without messing with the music too much.



There are 3 auctions on Ebay right now, ending in a couple hours (5:14 pacific time, 10/26).  Prices are still pretty cheap at this point. I don't know the seller and haven't ever bought from him, so this is an FYI only...


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 26, 2020)

...


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> There are 3 auctions on Ebay right now, ending in a couple hours (5:14 pacific time, 10/26).  Prices are still pretty cheap at this point. I don't know the seller and haven't ever bought from him, so this is an FYI only...



Someone bought a pair for $300, but another person won the quad for $223...🙄


----------



## raindownthunda

maxpudding said:


> Someone bought a pair for $300, but another person won the quad for $223...🙄



Wow! I was surprised to see that $300 winning bid too. Are these really worth 5998 prices? I was eying these too, but they quickly got way too steep for my blood.


----------



## maxpudding

raindownthunda said:


> Wow! I was surprised to see that $300 winning bid too. Are these really worth 5998 prices? I was eying these too, but they quickly got way too steep for my blood.



My TS 5998s that I bought in pairs at different times are cheaper than the $300 winning bid. I don’t have experience with 6AS7 tubes and I was eyeing on those too.

Someone who bought the quad clearly got the better deal lol


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 26, 2020)

raindownthunda said:


> Wow! I was surprised to see that $300 winning bid too. Are these really worth 5998 prices? I was eying these too, but they quickly got way too steep for my blood.


They're mislabeled listed (title) as 5998 so some folks might be thinking they're getting a 5998 unfortunately (hope that isn't the case, maybe they have monies to throw around  )


----------



## maxpudding

JKDJedi said:


> They're mislabeled as 5998 so some folks might be thinking they're getting a 5998 unfortunately (hope that isn't the case, maybe they have monies to throw around  )



Make it raiiiinnnn


----------



## Velozity

raindownthunda said:


> Wow! I was surprised to see that $300 winning bid too. Are these really worth 5998 prices? I was eying these too, but they quickly got way too steep for my blood.




I can't believe how crazy valued these have become in under a year.  The quad for 223 is a good deal.  But 300 for a pair?  Not smart.  Makes me want to put my two remaining matched pairs up for sale.  Since people are sleeping on the RCA, I'll buy those up and wait a year 😁.   I absolutely love the Chathams, but the RCA is no slouch when paired with the right preamp tube.


----------



## Velozity

JKDJedi said:


> They're mislabeled as 5998 so some folks might be thinking they're getting a 5998 unfortunately (hope that isn't the case, maybe they have monies to throw around  )




The tubes weren't even mislabled!  Just a misleading auction title.


----------



## JKDJedi

Velozity said:


> The tubes weren't even mislabled!  Just a misleading auction title.


I always do that here..(expecting peoples to read my mind) yes... the auction title is very misleading.. I followed it until I realized that, and if your in the know you could , maybe, (plausible?) .. get a good deal on one of those...


----------



## maxpudding

Velozity said:


> I can't believe how crazy valued these have become in under a year.  The quad for 223 is a good deal.  But 300 for a pair?  Not smart.  Makes me want to put my two remaining matched pairs up for sale.  Since people are sleeping on the RCA, I'll buy those up and wait a year 😁.   I absolutely love the Chathams, but the RCA is no slouch when paired with the right preamp tube.



PM me if you’d like to sell the pairs lol


----------



## Velozity (Oct 26, 2020)

Some people have more money than sense.  These 421 are on their last legs.  NOS is closer to 20000 mumhos.  These are 8000.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184489649118


*Edit- Sold for $390.  Wow.


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Oct 26, 2020)

May be an unpopular opinion, but those Chatham '5998' tubes without the domino plates are good, but not great, and worth $50 per tube.

Edit:. I do own and enjoy the tube...I just don't consider it to be in the ultra-high end category, yet it sometimes fetches those prices.

Of course, every amp is different, so it might sing more for different amps compared to mine.


----------



## BackwardPawn

bcowen said:


> There are 3 auctions on Ebay right now, ending in a couple hours (5:14 pacific time, 10/26).  Prices are still pretty cheap at this point. I don't know the seller and haven't ever bought from him, so this is an FYI only...


Is vacuumtubes.net any good to order from?  They have several brands listed for decent prices.


----------



## LoryWiv

I purchased from them a while back, one tube was damaged, perhaps in transit, BUT they made good on it with a swap. That's really all you can ask id honesty in dealing with customers.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

BackwardPawn said:


> Is vacuumtubes.net any good to order from?  They have several brands listed for decent prices.


I purchased my first ever set of tubes from them. One tube was defective but I didn't get a refund as shipping it back would've cost me the same amount. Others have confirmed their no fuss return policy. Good honest seller but you will be paying a premium for their service and guarantee. Once you become a bit more knowledgeable watching ebay for good deals and auctions is the way to go.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> May be an unpopular opinion, but those Chatham '5998' tubes without the domino plates are good, but not great, and worth $50 per tube.
> 
> Edit:. I do own and enjoy the tube...I just don't consider it to be in the ultra-high end category, yet it sometimes fetches those prices.
> 
> Of course, every amp is different, so it might sing more for different amps compared to mine.



My opinion is the same as yours. I only have one, but I like it.  It's not a 5998 by any means, but it's a very nice sounding tube and for $50 or less is a good buy.


----------



## Ripper2860

What?  Non-domino plate TS 5998. Seems that would be a 6AS7G.  Anyone got pics?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> What?  Non-domino plate TS 5998. Seems that would be a 6AS7G.  Anyone got pics?



What are you talking about?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ripper2860 said:


> What?  Non-domino plate TS 5998. Seems that would be a 6AS7G.  Anyone got pics?


We are referring to the ebay listings that inaccurately showed Chatham/Tung-Sol 6as7g tubes and labeled them as 5998 tubes in the listing.  These tubes, however, were missing the domino plates (and I'm quite sure they said 6as7g on the tubes themselves).
The tubes were bid up to prices that made me think people actually thought they were 5998 tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860

Gotcha.  That's what I thought and wanted to compare to my stash of TS/Chatham 6AS7G versions (top getter, as well as bottom getter) to confirm.  I do like their sound, BTW.

Thx!!


----------



## therremans

Ripper2860 said:


> Gotcha.  That's what I thought and wanted to compare to my stash of TS/Chatham 6AS7G versions (top getter, as well as bottom getter) to confirm.  I do like their sound, BTW.
> 
> Thx!!


Yes let us know. I want to purchase one of these.. I passed on a few for $35-$45 over this year and now regret it as they’re becoming more rare or expensive. One will pop up though and I’m wondering if the sound differences in the different getter configs.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

My 6AS7G GEC went back to the seller this week. I was disappointed with the microphonics because it was otherwise in a very good condition. 

Which leads me to a short analysis. I have had the following disappointing experiences:

- WE 421A - NOS matched quartet from reputable EU seller, 1 is microphonic, 1 has some very loud warm-up popping noises. Other 2 are perfect. I was refunded for the microphonic one.
- TS 5998 - strong testing from an EU seller with 100% ratings and a long history, but it had a strong hum in the right channel that rendered it unusable for my ears. I was refunded.
- TS 5998 Arcturus - strong testing matched pair from a U.S. seller with 100% ratings and a long history, but one had a semi-strong hum in the right channel that again rendered it unusable for my ears (the once you hear it you can't unhear it situation). I was refunded.
- 6AS7G GEC - NOS, reputable seller, microphonic. Refunded.

In short, why are there so many issues? I know, these are vintage, but have I just been having bad luck? I have been buying from good sources as far as I can tell and never from auction - highest bidder situations. Let's see, my ratio was:

- 6 WE 421As bought, 2 with issues, 33%
- 3 TS/GEC 6AS7G bought, 1 with issues, 33%
- 8 TS 5998s bought, 2 with issues, 25%
- 2 TS 6520 bought, 0 with issues, but second just came in, will test later and come back here with pictures

Again, it's not the cash outlay because I have been refunded and mostly only lost return shipping costs / exchange rate variations except for the one with the popping; it's the hit to the confidence that is disappointing. Do the numbers/ratios above seem normal to the regulars here?

Notably, ZERO of the tubes bought from Head-Fi or Woo directly (when prices were a bit more normal) have issues. So eBay is... questionable.

I only want one more tube in the medium-term, a GEC 6AS7G, but not sure I can regain the confidence to literally try my luck on eBay.

(despite all this above, rest assured, life is very good and these are very minor problems to have)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 27, 2020)

Hmmm.  Have you considered buying from a US seller with very little history and a mediocre reseller rating?   

Just kidding... 

That does seem like a run of bad luck.  I've had a few issues with eBay sellers, but the vast majority of my transactions result in a tube with no issues.  If I'm above 10% bad tube transactions, I'd be shocked.  Maybe I'm just hogging all the eBay good luck.

Edit:  I may have to give this more thought as the vast majority of my transactions overall have been driver tubes (6SN7 and 6922 family) and may be skewing my assessment.  If I drill down on power tube purchases only it may be higher, although my bad luck seems to be related to 6080 and 6AS7GA.


----------



## GDuss (Oct 27, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> My 6AS7G GEC went back to the seller this week. I was disappointed with the microphonics because it was otherwise in a very good condition.
> 
> Which leads me to a short analysis. I have had the following disappointing experiences:
> 
> ...



I could be wrong about this, but I don't think a tube that has perfect specs is automatically a tube that sounds good.  It could have perfect specs but still be microphonic or have a hum.  Unless the seller actually listens to the tube and checks for microphonics or hum, it is probably hard to know whether it's there.  And hum in one specific amp doesn't necessarily mean hum in another amp.  So the sellers probably just do the testing and report the values, but they also know that some of their tubes will not work for some of their buyers in some of their amps.  Then they just build in the potential for returns into their business and hope that returns are kept to a minimum.  Otherwise, they would have to actually start listening to all the tubes they sell so they can report on hum/microphonics.  And if they use their amp, it still may not predict what happens in the buyer's amp. 

All this said, I've actually seen sellers (although this is rare) say that they have put the tubes in an amp to check for hum and microphonics.  Maybe this what Woo does with their tubes and why they cost so much, as it's a time consuming process.  This may also be what sellers on Head-Fi have done before they sell the tubes (i.e. actually listen to them).


----------



## CaptainFantastic

GDuss said:


> I could be wrong about this, but I don't think a tube that has perfect specs is automatically a tube that sounds good.  It could have perfect specs but still be microphonic or have a hum.  Unless the seller actually listens to the tube and checks for microphonics or hum, it is probably hard to know whether it's there.  And hum in one specific amp doesn't necessarily mean hum in another amp.  So the sellers probably just do the testing and report the values, but they also know that some of their tubes will not work for some of their buyers in some of their amps.  Then they just build in the potential for returns into their business and hope that returns are kept to a minimum.  Otherwise, they would have to actually start listening to all the tubes they sell so they can report on hum/microphonics.  And if they use their amp, it still may not predict what happens in the buyer's amp.
> 
> All this said, I've actually seen sellers (although this is rare) say that they have put the tubes in an amp to check for hum and microphonics.  Maybe this what Woo does with their tubes and why they cost so much, as it's a time consuming process.  This may also be what sellers on Head-Fi have done before they sell the tubes (i.e. actually listen to them).



Makes sense. This was my feeling too regarding (A) just tested with a tester vs (B) actually listened to it on an amp. So this is why I wanted to know the general feeling whether for (A), when not buying from dodgy sources, the miss ratio is so high. It sounds like it should be lower, just some bad luck. 

In any case, aside from the GEC, I have enough perfect sounding 421A/5998/6520/6AS7G that I shouldn't have a reason to go into the marketplace too soon.


----------



## BackwardPawn (Oct 27, 2020)

tintinsnowydog said:


> I purchased my first ever set of tubes from them. One tube was defective but I didn't get a refund as shipping it back would've cost me the same amount. Others have confirmed their no fuss return policy. Good honest seller but you will be paying a premium for their service and guarantee. Once you become a bit more knowledgeable watching ebay for good deals and auctions is the way to go.


My current tubes were from eBay, but it seems like auction prices have gone a bit crazy; with all this COVID stuff demand is probably up.

I'd like something that's a little closer in sound to the Svetlana tubes than the RCAs, but with a bit of warmth and depth.  I like the transparency and punchiness of the Svetlana, but the sound does seem thin and cold.  Would either the Chatham 6as7g or Tung-sol 6080 be a good match?  I think they're the same tube in a different envelope.  Is one supposed to be better than the other?


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Oct 27, 2020)

Good news, the 6520 that arrived today is absolutely quiet. Confidence restored?  This one came from Canuck Audio Mart and it was a "mere" 120 Canadian dollars. It sounds great (second hour of listening). It has a bottom O-getter.




Funny aside - I noticed that two of my 5998s have the code 3226731-3, same green print, name, etc., but one has a top O-getter, the other a bottom O-getter. Was there a reason for producing in the same batch bottom and top getter units? I wonder...


----------



## gibosi (Oct 27, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Good news, the 6520 that arrived today is absolutely quiet. Confidence restored?  This one came from Canuck Audio Mart and it was a "mere" 120 Canadian dollars. It sounds great (second hour of listening). It has a bottom O-getter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And interestingly, I have two 5998's, one manufactured in 1968, and one in 1969, which have one O-getter on top and one O-getter on the bottom. So one might speculate that TS was experimenting with getter placement at that time, and in the end, chose to use one on top and one on the bottom. But of course, I have no idea what TS was thinking at that time, and this is just a WAG on my part.


----------



## BackwardPawn (Oct 27, 2020)

Further exploring the RCA 6as7g black plate tubes, I think they really shine with jazz.  I'm currently listening to Miles Davis, "Kind of Blue," and I'm pretty sure this is the genre RCA had in mind when the designed them.  I take back my comments about not liking these tubes.


----------



## GDuss

CaptainFantastic said:


> Makes sense. This was my feeling too regarding (A) just tested with a tester vs (B) actually listened to it on an amp. So this is why I wanted to know the general feeling whether for (A), when not buying from dodgy sources, the miss ratio is so high. It sounds like it should be lower, just some bad luck.



My success rate with quiet tubes seems to be related to how much I paid for the tubes.  And not in the direction you might think.  The less they cost, the more likely they are to be quiet.  This probably has something to do with my fascination with cheap metal 6J5, 6C5, 6J7 tubes (I have many of these; they the subject of another thread), and maybe they are quiet because they are metal casings, but I've had way more luck with quiet tubes from these types that are mostly less than $10 each.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

GDuss said:


> My success rate with quiet tubes seems to be related to how much I paid for the tubes.  And not in the direction you might think.  The less they cost, the more likely they are to be quiet.  This probably has something to do with my fascination with cheap metal 6J5, 6C5, 6J7 tubes (I have many of these; they the subject of another thread), and maybe they are quiet because they are metal casings, but I've had way more luck with quiet tubes from these types that are mostly less than $10 each.



Yes, the expensive ones are getting so rare these days that it seems one has a higher chance of getting a defective one. 

Happy with my 100% track record on Tung Sol 6520s. They sound so good. I will probably do an A/B test soon to see if there are differences between the two. You know, I can use your WA3 next to my other WA3 and do the fastest A/B-ing conceivable in the tube amp world.


----------



## GDuss

CaptainFantastic said:


> Yes, the expensive ones are getting so rare these days that it seems one has a higher chance of getting a defective one.
> 
> Happy with my 100% track record on Tung Sol 6520s. They sound so good. I will probably do an A/B test soon to see if there are differences between the two. You know, I can use your WA3 next to my other WA3 and do the fastest A/B-ing conceivable in the tube amp world.



Related to your point, maybe all the good (expensive) tubes are locked away in people's vaults at this point and the only ones that ever get sold are the less desirable ones.

I keep meaning to change my avatar.  Since the WA3 in that photo is now yours, it seems like it's time for a new photo.  Just need to figure out what to use.


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> I keep meaning to change my avatar.  Since the WA3 in that photo is now yours, it seems like it's time for a new photo.  Just need to figure out what to use.



You can resize this for your new one:


----------



## tintinsnowydog

CaptainFantastic said:


> My 6AS7G GEC went back to the seller this week. I was disappointed with the microphonics because it was otherwise in a very good condition.
> 
> Which leads me to a short analysis. I have had the following disappointing experiences:
> 
> ...



I've certainly seen these rarer items go down in quality and up in price dramatically in the last year or so. My best guess is that more and more good, quiet specimens are being used/bought up/kept, and the market is becoming more diluted with 'B grade' noisier/returned/slightly defective tubes. That said, I haven't had trouble with the tubes I've bought in the recent months. FWIW I tend to buy used tubes for cheaper prices instead of NOS; maybe that helps somewhat as the tubes are already burnt in and were used for some time by someone else, so weren't defective from the getgo. I've also had good luck with sellers that claim they have tested for noise.


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> You can resize this for your new one:



I'm not a native Texan, so I don't get into arguments about BBQ.  If I'm going with a food theme, something like this is probably more appropriate:





Although that roux needs to be a tiny bit darker.


----------



## attmci

GDuss said:


> I'm not a native Texan, so I don't get into arguments about BBQ.  If I'm going with a food theme, something like this is probably more appropriate:
> 
> 
> 
> Although that roux needs to be a tiny bit darker.


Nice plate!


----------



## Ripper2860

Very elegant dinnerware.  Far too refined for Carolina and maybe even Texas BBQ!


----------



## LoryWiv

CaptainFantastic said:


> Makes sense. This was my feeling too regarding (A) just tested with a tester vs (B) actually listened to it on an amp. So this is why I wanted to know the general feeling whether for (A), when not buying from dodgy sources, the miss ratio is so high. It sounds like it should be lower, just some bad luck.
> 
> In any case, aside from the GEC, I have enough perfect sounding 421A/5998/6520/6AS7G that I shouldn't have a reason to go into the marketplace too soon.


There are sellers like Brent Jesse, Upscale Audio or Vintage Tube Services that may do more hands on / ears on testing, but adds cost and I honestly don't know if that reduces the chance that a purchase will be problematic in one's own amp.


----------



## BackwardPawn

I found an odd Chinese 6n13p tube while going through some boxes and can't really judge the quality driving a single channel.  How does this tube compare with the Russian equivalent?  The other tube is likely in a box in my parents' basement, but may have been tossed.  Is it worth ordering another if it's gone?  I can get one for $10 shipped.  A pair of Russian tubes will be closer to $35 shipped.

I suppose I can put it opposite a Russian tube and see if I can here a difference in the channels.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

BackwardPawn said:


> I found an odd Chinese 6n13p tube while going through some boxes and can't really judge the quality driving a single channel.  How does this tube compare with the Russian equivalent?  The other tube is likely in a box in my parents' basement, but may have been tossed.  Is it worth ordering another if it's gone?  I can get one for $10 shipped.  A pair of Russian tubes will be closer to $35 shipped.
> 
> I suppose I can put it opposite a Russian tube and see if I can here a difference in the channels.


Imo the 6n13p is a downgrade from Svetlana power tubes.  Get a winged C or older 6h5c.


----------



## bcowen

BackwardPawn said:


> I found an odd Chinese 6n13p tube while going through some boxes and can't really judge the quality driving a single channel.  How does this tube compare with the Russian equivalent?  The other tube is likely in a box in my parents' basement, but may have been tossed.  Is it worth ordering another if it's gone?  I can get one for $10 shipped.  A pair of Russian tubes will be closer to $35 shipped.
> 
> I suppose I can put it opposite a Russian tube and see if I can here a difference in the channels.



I only have one Chinese 6N13P that came stock with the Darkvoice amp (so take this as a very narrowly-experienced FWIW):  spend the little extra and get the Russian tubes. The Chinese tube isn't even worthy of taking up space in my stash box.


----------



## BackwardPawn

bcowen said:


> I only have one Chinese 6N13P that came stock with the Darkvoice amp (so take this as a very narrowly-experienced FWIW):  spend the little extra and get the Russian tubes. The Chinese tube isn't even worthy of taking up space in my stash box.


I have to agree.  I just set up a Russian tube as the left channel and the Chinese tube as the right.  Very similar sonic quality and tone, but I think I got more detail out of the Russian tube.  The Chinese tube seemed to smooth everything over without adding the warmth of an American tube.  Again, it's hard to tell this way, but I think I'll just toss this tube and get a backup pair of Svetlanas.

I did manage to find a pair of Chatham 6AS7G in stock, so I'm looking forward to getting those.


----------



## Slade01

BackwardPawn said:


> I have to agree.  I just set up a Russian tube as the left channel and the Chinese tube as the right.  Very similar sonic quality and tone, but I think I got more detail out of the Russian tube.  The Chinese tube seemed to smooth everything over without adding the warmth of an American tube.  Again, it's hard to tell this way, but I think I'll just toss this tube and get a backup pair of Svetlanas.
> 
> I did manage to find a pair of Chatham 6AS7G in stock, so I'm looking forward to getting those.



Sonic differences aside, they (the cheapy Chinese tubes) don't seem to last. I also ran the stock chinese tube that came with my amp in the beginning, which didn't last more than about two months.  I had ordered another one to replace, and same result.  Both crapped out pretty quickly.


----------



## BackwardPawn

Slade01 said:


> Sonic differences aside, they (the cheapy Chinese tubes) don't seem to last. I also ran the stock chinese tube that came with my amp in the beginning, which didn't last more than about two months.  I had ordered another one to replace, and same result.  Both crapped out pretty quickly.


That's good to know, especially since the sonic difference between the tubes was probably just in my head.


----------



## bcowen

BackwardPawn said:


> That's good to know, especially since the sonic difference between the tubes was probably just in my head.



Possible, but not probable...unless you're listening through some $4.99 WalMart earbuds.  

Seriously, it took me a long time to summon up the courage to buy a Chinese signal tube. It's a PSVane, it's well built, and I like the sonics.  But it's still a signal tube, and it will take me a lot longer to summon up the courage to buy a Chinese power tube.  If a signal tube shorts out it's obviously not a good thing, but the amp will probably survive. A red-plating or shorted power tube is a different story though, and depending on the amp (and what protection it may or may not have), it could end up taking the amp with it. If PSVane ever comes out with a 6AS7 or equivalent I'd be willing to try one, but if they do it won't be on the cheaper end of the spectrum I'd guess.


----------



## BackwardPawn

bcowen said:


> Possible, but not probable...unless you're listening through some $4.99 WalMart earbuds.
> 
> Seriously, it took me a long time to summon up the courage to buy a Chinese signal tube. It's a PSVane, it's well built, and I like the sonics.  But it's still a signal tube, and it will take me a lot longer to summon up the courage to buy a Chinese power tube.  If a signal tube shorts out it's obviously not a good thing, but the amp will probably survive. A red-plating or shorted power tube is a different story though, and depending on the amp (and what protection it may or may not have), it could end up taking the amp with it. If PSVane ever comes out with a 6AS7 or equivalent I'd be willing to try one, but if they do it won't be on the cheaper end of the spectrum I'd guess.


Now that you mention it, I had a wire-wound resistor burn out and destroy an earphone a month after I received my amp.  It was quite annoying to have to perform surgery on a brand new product (although the German resistors I added improved the sound quality).  I think I threw out the other tube when that happened.  Probably should have tossed both.


----------



## bcowen

BackwardPawn said:


> Now that you mention it, I had a wire-wound resistor burn out and destroy an earphone a month after I received my amp.  It was quite annoying to have to perform surgery on a brand new product (although the German resistors I added improved the sound quality).  I think I threw out the other tube when that happened.  Probably should have tossed both.



What amp do you have?


----------



## BackwardPawn

bcowen said:


> What amp do you have?


La Figaro 339.  Its been a great amp excepting the initial problems.  I also had some issues with one of the adapters that came with it and ended up using 5693 tubes rather than the EF80s I initially planned to.  I may get new adapters at some point, but I really like the 5693s.


----------



## bcowen

BackwardPawn said:


> La Figaro 339.  Its been a great amp excepting the initial problems.  I also had some issues with one of the adapters that came with it and ended up using 5693 tubes rather than the EF80s I initially planned to.  I may get new adapters at some point, but I really like the 5693s.



Interesting.  I have 5691's and 5692's, but never had an application for a 5693. Do those come in glass bottle versions, or only the tin cans?


----------



## BackwardPawn

bcowen said:


> Interesting.  I have 5691's and 5692's, but never had an application for a 5693. Do those come in glass bottle versions, or only the tin cans?


They're little red cans.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_5693.html


----------



## adeadcrab

red hots are the best! They're military (?) spec 6S7J driver tubes. low noise long lasting good sound.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Slade01 said:


> Sonic differences aside, they (the cheapy Chinese tubes) don't seem to last.



The build quality too unfortunately. Had a 6N13P that I tried to take out of a socket; it got stuck completely and the guide pin came cleanly off. Was a pain getting the shards out of the socket. Won't be using any again any time soon.


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> My 6AS7G GEC went back to the seller this week. I was disappointed with the microphonics because it was otherwise in a very good condition.
> 
> Which leads me to a short analysis. I have had the following disappointing experiences:
> 
> ...


Bad Luck, happens. Life of a High Roller.


----------



## Slade01

CaptainFantastic said:


> In short, why are there so many issues? the numbers/ratios above seem normal to the regulars here?
> 
> Notably, ZERO of the tubes bought from Head-Fi or Woo directly (when prices were a bit more normal) have issues. So eBay is... questionable.





Ripper2860 said:


> ....although my bad luck seems to be related to 6080 and 6AS7GA.



Yeah right?  It sometimes escapes me that some of these tubes are near 80 year old pieces of glass and metal.  I think everyone here on head fi is so discerning with tubes and gear, we stash the good, have mostly put in the burn in and stand by it.  

Ripper has a good point though.   Looking back...out of all the tubes I have bought, the few I had issues with were with power tubes...also 6080 and 6as7 variety.  I've only bought about 12, 4 were bad.  So thats also a third of my power tube purchases to be a bust.   Dont know if your particular amp hates certain tubes either.  For me (the modest darkvoice amp) i always lament that I have never been able to run a new production driver tube ever.  Im 0 for 8 on new production stuff.  It just loves NOS and nothing else.  (Sigh ...it wants fine wine but I'm on a beer budget). Lol.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> For me (the modest darkvoice amp) i always lament that I have never been able to run a new production driver tube ever.  Im 0 for 8 on new production stuff.  It just loves NOS and nothing else.  (Sigh ...it wants fine wine but I'm on a beer budget). Lol.



If it's a hum problem with the driver tube(s) in the DV, adding these will fix that:


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> If it's a hum problem with the driver tube(s) in the DV, adding these will fix that:


Thank you.  I saved the pic for reference in case one day I open it up and want to go caps mod crazy because I suddenly develop a fever and the prescription is running new production/re-issue tubes.  Well you know maybe one day it will come to that if @JKDJedi keeps hoarding those tubes and only re-issue tubes are left!  LOL.  

In all seriousness, really appreciate that.  I really have to learn to be more handy with a solder iron.  Not limited to the darkvoice, but the nature of caps mods seem to be a really beneficial SQ upgrade to various amps.  Just to clarify, this is the famed fitz-mod right?  Using 220uF caps?


----------



## JTbbb

Just a punt here. If anyone has multiples of some nice power tubes.....perhaps you might like to trade a pair for a nearly new pair of Beyer T1 V2’s. Pm me if interested.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Thank you.  I saved the pic for reference in case one day I open it up and want to go caps mod crazy because I suddenly develop a fever and the prescription is running new production/re-issue tubes.  Well you know maybe one day it will come to that if @JKDJedi keeps hoarding those tubes and only re-issue tubes are left!  LOL.
> 
> In all seriousness, really appreciate that.  I really have to learn to be more handy with a solder iron.  Not limited to the darkvoice, but the nature of caps mods seem to be a really beneficial SQ upgrade to various amps.  Just to clarify, this is the famed fitz-mod right?  Using 220uF caps?



Yes, it's the Fitz mod with 220uF caps bypassing (ie: in parallel) with the cathode bias resistors.  I had a low-level hum with my DV even with new production tubes -- solved most of that by fixing the ground connection. I won't (further) derail this thread with those details (they're in the DV 336 thread), but that's something you may want to check with yours as there's no soldering required. But I also had problems with some NOS tubes causing hum even after that which this mod fixed completely.  No more hum with any signal tube I've tried subsequently.


----------



## bcowen

I love dyslexic Ebay sellers.  And in this case, double-dyslexic (VC?).  

Untested, so a bit of a gamble.  But if it tests good, then double LOL.


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> I love dyslexic Ebay sellers.  And in this case, double-dyslexic (VC?).
> 
> Untested, so a bit of a gamble.  But if it tests good, then double LOL.



Looks like it's sitting on a trivet.  Maybe it just came out of an amp and was hot?


----------



## bcowen (Oct 30, 2020)

GDuss said:


> Looks like it's sitting on a trivet.  Maybe it just came out of an amp and was hot?



LOL!  Yes, I would have greatly preferred it be photographed on some nice carpet like BangyBang uses, but you can't have everything for $10.  

The seller has another double-dyslexic listing still going, but no carpet there either.


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Yes, I would have greatly preferred it be photographed on some nice carpet like BangyBang uses, but you can't have everything for $10.



Good point.  In this case, at least you know your money is going towards the tube and not to pay for their photo box setup.


----------



## Paladin79

I landed more winged C’s from the 50’s, they will need the pins cleaned and the solder replaced by the looks of them, they are getting tougher to find.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> I landed more winged C’s from the 50’s, they will need the pins cleaned and the solder replaced by the looks of them, they are getting tougher to find.


Hmm I do like mine from the 86’. How do these older versions compare?


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I landed more winged C’s from the 50’s, they will need the pins cleaned and the solder replaced by the looks of them, they are getting tougher to find.



Nice catch! 

And echoing @therremans , how would you describe the sonic differences between 50's production and later production?


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 30, 2020)

gibosi said:


> Nice catch!
> 
> And echoing @therremans , how would you describe the sonic differences between 50's production and later production?


I will try to do some serious listening over the weekend, I am in the middle of building a class A SET amp using Russian tubes in order to win a bet. I just happened to receive those tubes along with other other things I ordered but it will take time to clean them up and test them. The solder looks awful compared to the newer once so I do not take any chances till after that is replaced.

I have a 55 military version somewhere and I will try to listen to it as well compared to the 50's and the later ones.

Oh and the driver tube I will use is a 1958 Melz 1578 without the perforated plates, a Gungnir DAC and Incubus headphone amp feeding Focal Utopias. Choice of music will most likely be 25 recordings that were done for my local group, I will have my wife swap the tubes so it is a blind test. I like to stay away from expectation bias.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> I will try to do some serious listening over the weekend, I am in the middle of building a class A SET amp using Russian tubes in order to win a bet. I just happened to receive those tubes along with other other things I ordered but it will take time to clean them up and test them. The solder looks awful compared to the newer once so I do not take any chances till after that is replaced.
> 
> I have a 55 military version somewhere and I will try to listen to it as well compared to the 50's and the later ones.
> 
> Oh and the driver tube I will use is a 1958 Melz 1578 without the perforated plates, a Gungnir DAC and Incubus headphone amp feeding Focal Utopias. Choice of music will most likely be 25 recordings that were done for my local group, I will have my *wife swap* the tubes so it is a blind test. I like to stay away from expectation bias.


Man if I asked for a wife swap I'd be sleeping on the sofa for a week!


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Man if I asked for a wife swap I'd be sleeping on the sofa for a week!



Lol I realized how that might be interpreted much after I wrote it.

In order to make testing simpler I am meeting with a couple friends today and we will use four identical amps and Melz 1963 1578 driver tubes, I have a matched quad.

Two of us will do a blind listen and we can A-B-C-D the tubes.  I will use a Tung Sol 5998 in the mix just to give some perspective, otherwise I will be listening to and grading Winged C's.

1955 Naval version 6H5C
1958 standard version 6H5C
1971  6H13C

One friend who will not be involved in the test will set up the tubes in the amps and we will never see which is which till the testing is over. All volume levels will be precise and we are using HD 800 Senn headphones. I built the amps and they are as identical as I can make them. I know the source material and the recordings are superb. The DAC may well be an Aqua La Voce, my groups favorite. The end result will be a numeric value but I will then try to explain where any score differences were derived. The driver tubes rate 96 out of 100 as best I recall and there is no way around them being in the circuit. A metal cage covers all tubes so we will not see any of them during test.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Man if I asked for a wife swap I'd be sleeping on the sofa for a week!



ROFL!!


----------



## HiFiHawaii808

Well, I tried everything and nothing I could do enabled me to recover from the left channel going out on my TS 5998.   The good news is that I called the vendor I bought it from and he is accepting a return.  Good out come, but I lose that tube.  Vendor doesn't have any replacement TS 5998s, so I asked him what else he has.   He has the following and I bought them

GEC 6AS7G
7236
6520.

I would be interested in your feedback on these tubes and what input tubes might pair best with them on my Bottlehead Crack.


----------



## JKDJedi

HiFiHawaii808 said:


> Well, I tried everything and nothing I could do enabled me to recover from the left channel going out on my TS 5998.   The good news is that I called the vendor I bought it from and he is accepting a return.  Good out come, but I lose that tube.  Vendor doesn't have any replacement TS 5998s, so I asked him what else he has.   He has the following and I bought them
> 
> GEC 6AS7G
> 7236
> ...


Does the 6520 have domino plates? Nice trio.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> Does the 6520 have domino plates? Nice trio.



Yes, I would say that the vendor definitely did not underwhelm in offering alternatives to that 5998.


----------



## LoryWiv

HiFiHawaii808 said:


> Well, I tried everything and nothing I could do enabled me to recover from the left channel going out on my TS 5998.   The good news is that I called the vendor I bought it from and he is accepting a return.  Good out come, but I lose that tube.  Vendor doesn't have any replacement TS 5998s, so I asked him what else he has.   He has the following and I bought them
> 
> GEC 6AS7G
> 7236
> ...


I have GEC 6080 in power position now and while I recognize they are not equivalent to 6AS7G, I have a power tube "bias" (pun intended) toward the GEC. This 6080 is best output tube I've had.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 31, 2020)

Ok the results of some blind listening comparing different Winged C's and a Tung Sol 5998

Tung Sol     5998                         96        95     Second number is that of a friend. The Tung Sol tested higher in mid bass and mid highs and detail

1955 Military  winged C           92        93     Very musical and excellent timbre

1958  Winged C                       90        91     decent with a nice stereo spread

1971  Winged C                       89         89    tough to differentiate much difference between this and the 1958 to be honest mid bass was not as pronounced if anything, my friend rated mid highs a bit lower.

All tests were done with blind listening and I am very used to those driver tubes with the Tung Sol so that was an easy one for me. We only learned which tube was which after spending three hours listening after the tubes had warmed up for an hour or so.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Paladin79 said:


> Ok the results of some blind listening comparing different Winged C's and a Tung Sol 5998
> 
> Tung Sol     5998                         96        95     Second number is that of a friend. The Tung Sol tested higher in mid bass and mid highs and detail
> 
> ...



Very nice test. So overall the 5998 came out the winner, even though in some areas the others beat it? Which one was best for vocals?


----------



## therremans (Oct 31, 2020)

Thanks for posting the listening test. Are these similar to your 50s winged c?

Edit: I see many winged-c have the upper guard and not just 50s


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 31, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Very nice test. So overall the 5998 came out the winner, even though in some areas the others beat it? Which one was best for vocals?


I was comparing the winged C's as far as their scores and differences, not meaning they did better than the Tung Sol.

Vocals often fall under Timbre to me, the 55 Navy tube and the Tung Sol both scored high.

Now these tubes were tested in my amps and folks like @bcowen, @PsilocybinCube @JKDJedi and @Ripper2860 know the type of sound I seek. I cannot tell much difference in power tubes in a BH Crack and I have built and modified several so as always YMMV depending on equipment used. My amps really show off the 6sn7 but along the way they open up the power tubes for me as well. I also invited a friend so it would not be one single impression, I prefer to use a lot more people but this is not a good time to assemble groups. I would have most likely been kicked out of the lab we used.


----------



## HiFiHawaii808

JKDJedi said:


> Does the 6520 have domino plates? Nice trio.


I wasn’t well educated enough to ask that question.   Is there a readers digest version of this thread?    It might take me a while to read through 409 pages.


----------



## Paladin79 (Oct 31, 2020)

therremans said:


> Thanks for posting the listening test. Are these similar to your 50s winged c?
> 
> Edit: I see many winged-c have the upper guard and not just 50s


I do not know of a winged C without the upper guard, now only the military version has the same metal shield down below as far as I know. I assume you mean the metal half circles. I think the 6h13C is more common because they are newer. My Russian friends say they are basically the same tube but in Russia the older 6H5C's are more sought after.

Oh yeah the 55 Miltary version has a different getter holder, as do the 58's and 59's I own. The newer ones have the flying saucer shapes.


On the left is the 1958, 1971 is on the right.


----------



## gibosi

therremans said:


> Thanks for posting the listening test. Are these similar to your 50s winged c?
> 
> Edit: I see many winged-c have the upper guard and not just 50s



The most obvious construction difference between the 1955 "military" version and later versions are the shields that are installed below the bottom mica. They are very similar to the shields found on RCA 6AS7G.

For example, this 1955 winged c has no military markings, but the construction is the same, with RCA-like shields installed below the lower mica spacer.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> The most obvious construction difference between the 1955 "military" version and later versions are the shields that are installed below the bottom mica. They are very similar to the shields found on RCA 6AS7G.
> 
> For example, this 1955 winged c has no military markings, but the construction is the same, with RCA-like shields installed below the lower mica spacer.


I only have the Russian Navy version so I had not seen the standard version. You are correct that the bottom shield is obvious, getter holders are less obvious.😀

I was testing that which I own.


----------



## JKDJedi (Oct 31, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Ok the results of some blind listening comparing different Winged C's and a Tung Sol 5998
> 
> Tung Sol     5998                         96        95     Second number is that of a friend. The Tung Sol tested higher in mid bass and mid highs and detail
> 
> ...


Was the "pasce pipe"


Paladin79 said:


> Ok the results of some blind listening comparing different Winged C's and a Tung Sol 5998
> 
> Tung Sol     5998                         96        95     Second number is that of a friend. The Tung Sol tested higher in mid bass and mid highs and detail
> 
> ...


I'm picturing a "peace pipe" being passed around during this session..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Was the "pasce pipe"...



"Pasce Pipes" were discontinued quite a while ago, and it's hard to find NOS ones for a decent price.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Was the "pasce pipe"
> 
> I'm picturing a "peace pipe" being passed around during this session..


Ah you California people, cigarettes are even banned where I was.😎


----------



## SHIMACM

Have you seen this tube?


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Have you seen this tube?



I think I saw it pictured on a milk carton a couple years ago...    

Interesting.  Sure looks like a Tung Sol / Chatham 5998.  Did anybody besides Tung Sol or Western Electric make a domino plate?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

SHIMACM said:


> Have you seen this tube?


I bid on that too.  Did you win?


----------



## Paladin79

I see some slight differences between it and a Tung Sol, Marshall (MSE) is certainly not an easy brand to find. I suspect Marshall had the tubes made for their amps, I cannot find much on them in Tube Lore.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> Have you seen this tube?


I was watching this tube also but didn’t bid when it crept up there. Mostly because test numbers wern’t posted and a return wouldn’t be reasonable if it needed to happen. but if all is well, it is some form of a Tung Sol domino plate at a good price.


----------



## SHIMACM

[QUOTE = "bcowen, postagem: 15950974, membro: 489394"]
Acho que a vi retratada em uma caixa de leite há alguns anos ...  :rindo: :rindo:

Interessante. Com certeza se parece com um Tung Sol / Chatham 5998. Alguém além do Tung Sol ou da Western Electric fez uma placa dominó?
[/CITAR]


PsilocybinCube said:


> I bid on that too.  Did you win?



Do not.


----------



## maxpudding

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...096738?hash=item366d20bfa2:g:NGgAAOSw6qdfl3fD

A pair of 6520 labelled tubes


----------



## Ripper2860

I was watching the Marshall tube, but passed on it after seeing the key-way was broken off.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> I was watching the Marshall tube, but passed on it after seeing the key-way was broken off.


Next time I have to replace one I will show you my method, and this does not involve an adapter.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I was watching the Marshall tube, but passed on it after seeing the key-way was broken off.



Never hurts to have a few of these in the parts bin...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pcs-Vacu...115670?hash=item236ccb4316:g:QtIAAOSwacdZbjxB


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Next time I have to replace one I will show you my method, and this does not involve an adapter.



Well, you _could_ break one off of an octal tube in your extensive GE stash and show us.. Worst case is that you'd break the tube, which is in reality the best case.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 1, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well, you _could_ break one off of an octal tube in your extensive GE stash and show us.. Worst case is that you'd break the tube, which is in reality the best case.  LOL!


Ok now I know TWO ways to fix it.

By the way I no longer refer to those tubes as GE.

I call them Winner, Winner @bcowen pays for  steak and wine dinner!  (I bought some in order to win a bet with some guy from North Carolina.)

They are priceless.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I think I saw it pictured on a milk carton a couple years ago...
> 
> Interesting.  Sure looks like a Tung Sol / Chatham 5998.  Did anybody besides Tung Sol or Western Electric make a domino plate?





maxpudding said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...096738?hash=item366d20bfa2:g:NGgAAOSw6qdfl3fD
> 
> A pair of 6520 labelled tubes


You noticed the regular plates on them guys...you see, not all (6520) are domino plated.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 1, 2020)

I was not sure these existed but I have some Svetlana winged C's held for me in Russia, NIB from 1958 and 1959. Nothing unusual right?  Well these are not 6H5C, they are 6H13C's that I have only seen from the 70's on. There really should not be much difference but finding NOS is always good.

I need to concentrate on a class A set amp I am designing, I know what I want to build so it is a matter of laying out the cabinet now. Some tiger maple with a border perhaps. I may change to a darker boarder but it will be something like this.


----------



## GDuss

I have 4 of these Russian tubes that people have discussed the last few pages, but I've never listened to any of them.  3 are marked 6H5C but 1 is marked 6H13C.  They have dates on them to the right of the tube type, is this the year they were made or something else?


----------



## tintinsnowydog

SHIMACM said:


> Have you seen this tube?


Saw that auction too, the seller is reliable have bought from them before despite the lack of test scores. It went for a reasonable price, most likely due to guide pin.


----------



## gibosi

GDuss said:


> I have 4 of these Russian tubes that people have discussed the last few pages, but I've never listened to any of them.  3 are marked 6H5C but 1 is marked 6H13C.  They have dates on them to the right of the tube type, is this the year they were made or something else?



Yes, the two digit number to the right of the flying C is the year of manufacture. And often, there will be a roman numeral number to the left of the flying C, indicating the month. And this dating scheme is common to most if not all Russian production.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hello folks.  Looking for a Tung-Sol 7236 and just wanted to see if any of you fine folks had one to sell before I start my Internet searches.  Bought one a few weeks ago and while I really like it, it has developed a horrible static and low output on one channel.  Sounds OK at low pretty volume, but as I start to turn it up it starts breaking up badly in the right channel.  Anyhow -- if any of you folks have one or know an HF'er  that has one available, PM me.

Thanks!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Hello folks.  Looking for a Tung-Sol 7236 and just wanted to see if any of you fine folks had one to sell before I start my Internet searches.  Bought one a few weeks ago and while I really like it, it has developed a horrible static and low output on one channel.  Sounds OK at low pretty volume, but as I start to turn it up it starts breaking up badly in the right channel.  Anyhow -- if any of you folks have one or know an HF'er  that has one available, PM me.
> 
> Thanks!!!


@LoryWiv


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> Hello folks.  Looking for a Tung-Sol 7236 and just wanted to see if any of you fine folks had one to sell before I start my Internet searches.  Bought one a few weeks ago and while I really like it, it has developed a horrible static and low output on one channel.  Sounds OK at low pretty volume, but as I start to turn it up it starts breaking up badly in the right channel.  Anyhow -- if any of you folks have one or know an HF'er  that has one available, PM me.
> 
> Thanks!!!


Regrets, sold mine a few weeks back. happy hunting @Ripper2860.


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Nov 2, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Hello folks.  Looking for a Tung-Sol 7236 and just wanted to see if any of you fine folks had one to sell before I start my Internet searches.  Bought one a few weeks ago and while I really like it, it has developed a horrible static and low output on one channel.  Sounds OK at low pretty volume, but as I start to turn it up it starts breaking up badly in the right channel.  Anyhow -- if any of you folks have one or know an HF'er  that has one available, PM me.
> 
> Thanks!!!



Edit: oops, misread request. Don't have one.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Hello folks.  Looking for a Tung-Sol 7236 and just wanted to see if any of you fine folks had one to sell before I start my Internet searches.  Bought one a few weeks ago and while I really like it, it has developed a horrible static and low output on one channel.  Sounds OK at low pretty volume, but as I start to turn it up it starts breaking up badly in the right channel.  Anyhow -- if any of you folks have one or know an HF'er  that has one available, PM me.
> 
> Thanks!!!



Have you tried resoldering the pins?  The bad connection problems from failing pin solder are more prevalent with (some) Russian tubes like the Fotons, but not limited to them. I've had 2 Tung Sols so far with noise or low GM issues that resoldering corrected, as well as a good 'ol Bad Boy that a friend sent.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Ok now I know TWO ways to fix it.
> 
> By the way I no longer refer to those tubes as GE.
> 
> ...



ROFL!!!  I _will_ have to hand it to you for finding the one (out of a million) totally out-of-spec GE tubes that actually sounded not terrible not completely like ass. That's a significant accomplishment in and of itself.


----------



## BackwardPawn (Nov 2, 2020)

gibosi said:


> Yes, the two digit number to the right of the flying C is the year of manufacture. And often, there will be a roman numeral number to the left of the flying C, indicating the month. And this dating scheme is common to most if not all Russian production.


Also, the 5c is the military version and the 13c is the consumer version (someone correct me if I'm backward).  They're the same tube made to slightly different tolerances.  They should be interchangeable, but I've seen posts that say one sounds better than the other.  I've never heard the 5c version.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!  I _will_ have to hand it to you for finding the one (out of a million) totally out-of-spec GE tubes that actually sounded not terrible not completely like ass. That's a significant accomplishment in and of itself.


I bought so many GE's to try that I probably increased their rarity and overall price lol.

Good advice on the pin re-soldering by the way, I redid some of the older Winged C's I received and brought most back to life. After 50 years or thereabouts I know what happens with Russian solder and other old tubes might suffer from the same breakdown.

 One Winged C had a short and I may zap that with a moderate amount of current to try to clear the short, a charged electrolytic can also do the trick and worst case scenario it was beyond using anyway. This is not something I would recommend unless you have a pretty good understanding of tube construction and electronics.

Also I will drop a couple hints about how I have repaired damaged keys on tube sockets in the past. Acetone and solder pot.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Have you tried resoldering the pins?



You're kidding, right? With my hand shake I can barely paint my baseboards without painting the walls.  😄


----------



## SHIMACM

Chatham with Haltron / Svetlana face ?!


----------



## Paladin79

BackwardPawn said:


> Also, the 5c is the military version and the 13c is the consumer version (someone correct me if I'm backward).  They're the same tube made to slightly different tolerances.  They should be interchangeable, but I've seen posts that say one sounds better than the other.  I've never heard the 5c version.


I have not heard that about the military and consumer version but that could make sense since the majority of 6H5C's are older. I will have some 58 and 59 13C's in my possession soon.

Oh and I like your ID, if you enjoy chess watch Queen's Gambit on Netflix if you get a chance. Garry Kasparov was a technical advisor and some of the early games took place in venues where I have played tournaments. The author, Walter Tevis, also wrote The Hustler and The Color of Money.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> Chatham with Haltron / Svetlana face ?!


I cannot make out the top shield well but from that point down it sure does resemble a Svetlana yet made in the USA is clearly stamped on it.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> You're kidding, right? With my hand shake I can barely paint my baseboards without painting the walls.  😄



You should work on that.  Covid will be over at some point and we'll be back to shaking hands again.


----------



## Ripper2860

Low self-esteem? You must have me confused with someone else!  😄


----------



## BackwardPawn

Paladin79 said:


> I have not heard that about the military and consumer version but that could make sense since the majority of 6H5C's are older. I will have some 58 and 59 13C's in my possession soon.
> 
> Oh and I like your ID, if you enjoy chess watch Queen's Gambit on Netflix if you get a chance. Garry Kasparov was a technical advisor and some of the early games took place in venues where I have played tournaments. The author, Walter Tevis, also wrote The Hustler and The Color of Money.


I used to play a lot against my roommate in college, but really haven't played since then.  My nephew and I will play sometimes, but he's much better than I am.  I'm not sure if I used to be better when I played regularly or if I overestimated my skill.  He can see several moves ahead and sets up traps while I'm usually just playing what I see on the board.  I'll have to check out that show, though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should work on that.  Covid will be over at some point and we'll be back to shaking hands again.


One of my young female employees has a term for it involving the word "limp" but I best not repeat it here.


----------



## Paladin79

BackwardPawn said:


> I used to play a lot against my roommate in college, but really haven't played since then.  My nephew and I will play sometimes, but he's much better than I am.  I'm not sure if I used to be better when I played regularly or if I overestimated my skill.  He can see several moves ahead and sets up traps while I'm usually just playing what I see on the board.  I'll have to check out that show, though.


I began playing about age 7 and played in many USCF tourneys. I also played a lot of cards in the US and Canada with a Russian card partner from Belarus who was wicked smart, she had a masters in math.

Sorry to drift off topic.

Anyway I will ask about the military vs consumer versions of those Russian tubes, they are pretty close in sound IMHO yet as I said earlier the Russians tend to seek out the 6H5C versions. I do own a military tube from 1955 but it has an extra shield at the bottom. All versions I own have an OTK stamp on them.


----------



## Velozity

SHIMACM said:


> Chatham with Haltron / Svetlana face ?!






Paladin79 said:


> I cannot make out the top shield well but from that point down it sure does resemble a Svetlana yet made in the USA is clearly stamped on it.




Hmm, I haven't seen a Svetlana with copper grid supports.  I'll have to pull out my Chathams to check, but that looks authentic to me from first glance.  What is causing you guys to say it's Russian knock-off?


----------



## Paladin79

BackwardPawn said:


> Also, the 5c is the military version and the 13c is the consumer version (someone correct me if I'm backward).  They're the same tube made to slightly different tolerances.  They should be interchangeable, but I've seen posts that say one sounds better than the other.  I've never heard the 5c version.


I spoke to a Russian friend and he stated anything higher end would have a rhombus, the 5c and 13c are not designators of military and consumer grade. I am just the messenger in this case.


----------



## JTbbb

Hello all, a question if I may please.

What is the difference between a GEC 6080 cv5008, and one being cv2984

Thanks


----------



## Paladin79

Velozity said:


> Hmm, I haven't seen a Svetlana with copper grid supports.  I'll have to pull out my Chathams to check, but that looks authentic to me from first glance.  What is causing you guys to say it's Russian knock-off?


I just thought the plates looked similar, the top shield is not distinguishable and I cannot see the getter holders. Busy day for me so I did not have a Svetlana in front of me to compare.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Hello all, a question if I may please.
> 
> What is the difference between a GEC 6080 cv5008, and one being cv2984
> 
> Thanks



A 6080 and CV2984 are the same (the CV is a military designation, much like the JAN designation for US-made tubes). The CV5008 is identical to a 6080WA which is a ruggedized version of the 6080 (but is electrically pretty much the same).


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> A 6080 and CV2984 are the same (the CV is a military designation, much like the JAN designation for US-made tubes). The CV5008 is identical to a 6080WA which is a ruggedized version of the 6080 (but is electrically pretty much the same).


A great answer!
Personally I just try to use Class A amps as cat butt warmers, 6080 equivalents of course.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> A great answer!
> Personally I just try to use Class A amps as cat butt warmers, 6080 equivalents of course.



Finnegan permits this?  I'm in shock!


----------



## Slade01

@JKDJedi - as promised - my Sylvania Gold Brand 6080s came in.  Interesting as they have the same date/factory codes.  But one of course is a dual mica, one is a triple mica, both with double halo top getters.  The base bottoms differ as well, with a black and the other a gray base.   Hopefully they will sound good.  Will light these up soon.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi - as promised - my Sylvania Gold Brand 6080s came in.  Interesting as they have the same date/factory codes.  But one of course is a dual mica, one is a triple mica, both with double halo top getters.  The base bottoms differ as well, with a black and the other a gray base.   Hopefully they will sound good.  Will light these up soon.


love it, interested in the grey based (right) tube, might have to send that one to me for further evaluation. ,😉 anxious to hear if they both have the same sound signature.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> A great answer!
> Personally I just try to use Class A amps as cat butt warmers, 6080 equivalents of course.


Is that a socket saver for your 6sn7?  Or just a design choice for the theme of the build?
Also, I am running the same 100% Russian tube combo (Melz & Svetlana power tube) and loving it.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Is that a socket saver for your 6sn7?  Or just a design choice for the theme of the build?
> Also, I am running the same 100% Russian tube combo (Melz & Svetlana power tube) and loving it.


I am just using a socket saver since I am more apt to change a driver tube frequently.  I love the 63 Melz with a Tung Sol 5998, but the Svetlana is a very good tube IMHO.  I should put you on the list to hear a 58 Melz that is pretty rare, it will be going to Georgia anyway before it heads to Jedi in California. If I can locate a bunch I will part with some but I am not there yet.😀


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I am just using a socket saver since I am more apt to change a driver tube frequently.  I love the 63 Melz with a Tung Sol 5998, but the Svetlana is a very good tube IMHO.  I should put you on the list to hear a 58 Melz that is pretty rare, it will be going to Georgia anyway before it heads to Jedi in California. If I can locate a bunch I will part with some but I am not there yet.😀



1958 was an awesome year for at least 2 reasons now.  LOL!!


----------



## gibosi

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi - as promised - my Sylvania Gold Brand 6080s came in.  Interesting as they have the same date/factory codes.  But one of course is a dual mica, one is a triple mica, both with double halo top getters.  The base bottoms differ as well, with a black and the other a gray base.   Hopefully they will sound good.  Will light these up soon.



The fact that they have the same date code is quite interesting. "GK" in the Sylvania dating scheme corresponds to October, 1960. I suspect that is likely that these are simply cosmetic changes, but since you have both you can verify.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I am just using a socket saver since I am more apt to change a driver tube frequently.  I love the 63 Melz with a Tung Sol 5998, but the Svetlana is a very good tube IMHO.  I should put you on the list to hear a 58 Melz that is pretty rare, it will be going to Georgia anyway before it heads to Jedi in California. If I can locate a bunch I will part with some but I am not there yet.😀



And maybe on it's way from Georgia to California, it could make a brief stop in Ohio?


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> And maybe on it's way from Georgia to California, it could make a brief stop in Ohio?


or could just go straight to California. 😎


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> or could just go straight to California. 😎



It's in the box ready to ship but hasn't been labeled yet.  I could might possibly be persuaded to mis-label it for the right offer.  LOL!!!


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> or could just go straight to California. 😎



I appreciate your caution. It is certainly possible that it could get lost at my place and never make it to California. lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> or could just go straight to California. 😎


By the time it reaches California I hope it is still a vacuum tube. Hard telling what music Cowen tortured it with. Maybe once it returns to Indiana I can send it on to Ohio. It should be heading to Texas soon if @bcowen follows instructions, he is not cheap but he can be bought.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> By the time it reaches California I hope it is still a vacuum tube. Hard telling what music Cowen tortured it with. Maybe once it returns to Indiana I can send it on to Ohio.


well I couldn't stand the anxiousness of waiting( for the prize package) so I ordered something (resembling) of what you have going around. Probably not even close...but.. I might get lucky. (this 6as7 thread?) to go with the Cwing of course! or that 5998, or that 6080 GB, or the....


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> I appreciate your caution. It is certainly possible that it could get lost at my place and never make it to California. lol


I am trying to recall. Would you be listening in a Bottlehead Crack or a Darkvoice or what? If so I might have to build another loaner amp.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> well I couldn't stand the anxiousness of waiting( for the prize package) so I ordered something (resembling) of what you have going around. Probably not even close...but.. I might get lucky. (this 6as7 thread?) to go with the Cwing of course! or that 5998, or that 6080 GB, or the....



I hear you, and I already have something that is very likely as good: A "real" Melz 1578 dated 1958. 

But still, I would really like the chance to hear Paladin's 58 Melz.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I am trying to recall. Would you be listening in a Bottlehead Crack or a Darkvoice or what? If so I might have to build another loaner amp.



I have a Glenn OTL, which requires only one SN7 driver.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> well I couldn't stand the anxiousness of waiting( for the prize package) so I ordered something (resembling) of what you have going around. Probably not even close...but.. I might get lucky. (this 6as7 thread?) to go with the Cwing of course! or that 5998, or that 6080 GB, or the....


Got a link? I would be curious what you found.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Got a link? I would be curious what you found.



I kept trying to tell him, but he wouldn't listen.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 2, 2020)

gibosi said:


> I have a Glenn OTL, which requires only one SN7 driver.


Oh ok, most of these guys own one of my amps, I can recall someone mentioning a Glenn before.

And I own other 58 Melz including the 1578, these have solid plates and when several have listened they can talk about perceptions. I am up to 14 people who have given detailed responses so I have a fair idea how it is doing.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I kept trying to tell him, but he wouldn't listen.


😒 no thanks... 😂


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> 😒 no thanks... 😂


I can send you another Marconi if you like.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I can send you another Marconi if you like.



You sent him a Marconi _*too*_?

Marconi hoarder....


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I can send you another Marconi if you like.


😂😂😂 I was gonna ask if I should send it to @bcowen but looks like he got the honors already!! 😝🤣🤣


----------



## Slade01

gibosi said:


> The fact that they have the same date code is quite interesting. "GK" in the Sylvania dating scheme corresponds to October, 1960. I suspect that is likely that these are simply cosmetic changes, but since you have both you can verify.



Yeah thats what the seller touted as well - speculation that production went through some changeover in process manufacturing to explain the difference in bases and micas.

That being said, after listening to an hour of music on each tube, my initial takeaway is that weirdly, the double mica (black bottom base) feels like it has slightly more gain as a result of the lack of the third mica at the top.  It is a touch louder (as a results a perceived wider soundstage, more reverb).  Everything gets a slight boost, bringing the highs at touch points of fatigue/grate every so often.  I didn't experience anything like that with the triple mica (gray bottom)...well controlled, no fatigue.  It's almost as if the extra mica regulates that flow just enough.    In this, I am running these GB-6080 with a Sylvania 7AF7 for a driver, and my dac is set to NOS mode.   It's very interesting indeed.  So yeah, both tonally the same.  But the double mica is a touch louder/wider enough that it brings touches of the high ranges into the fringe of fatigue.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 2, 2020)

@bcowen -- Maybe if you mark it 'IMPORTANT -- MAIL-IN ELECTION BALLOT' it'll get here sooner.   

On 2nd thought DON'T DO THAT!!!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen -- Maybe if you mark it 'IMPORTANT -- MAIL-IN ELECTION BALLOT' it'll get here sooner.
> 
> On 2nd thought DON'T DO THAT!!!



I only do that with fake tubes.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> Oh ok, most of these guys own one of my amps, I can recall someone mentioning a Glenn before.
> 
> And I own other 58 Melz including the 1578, these have solid plates and when several have listened they can talk about perceptions. I am up to 14 people who have given detailed responses so I have a fair idea how it is doing.



Well, this is the 6AS7 thread, and not the 6SN7 thread, sorry, but just so folks know these exist, this is a "real" 1578, dated X-58, with perforated plates, tabbed mica spacers and metal springs attached to the top mica. And I have seen one dated 1956. So these older ones are out there.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

I accidentally overbid and bought some tung sol 6080 tubes for more than they were worth (3 of them).  Pm if interested in one and I will let a couple go for cheap ($20?).


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> @JKDJedi - as promised - my Sylvania Gold Brand 6080s came in.  Interesting as they have the same date/factory codes.  But one of course is a dual mica, one is a triple mica, both with double halo top getters.  The base bottoms differ as well, with a black and the other a gray base.   Hopefully they will sound good.  Will light these up soon.


Seems like Sylvania was going through a manufacturing change (of their 6080) that year.. what a find Slade! Philips took over in 81 so it wasn't their doing if these are dated in the 60's. I found a Sylvania 6080 with similar build without the GB label on it here.. (1965?)


And have an archived photo of mine of the Philips 6080(WB?) with a similar build the same.

 (left, Philips. center, Sylvania GB.  right, Mullard)



The color of the base changed with the added mica at the top. From memory the Philips was a lot warmer than the Sylvania to the right of it.  Have yet to compare the Gold Brand to the Mullard.


----------



## BackwardPawn

I'm getting some weird sounds in the background of my RCA tubes that I don't hear at all in my Svetlana tubes.  Best I can describe it, it sounds like I'm playing a scratchy record.  Does this mean they're probably bad tubes?  I bought them used to save a few dollars over NOS, but it wasn't the best decision.  Seller said they tested like new.


----------



## Paladin79

BackwardPawn said:


> I'm getting some weird sounds in the background of my RCA tubes that I don't hear at all in my Svetlana tubes.  Best I can describe it, it sounds like I'm playing a scratchy record.  Does this mean they're probably bad tubes?  I bought them used to save a few dollars over NOS, but it wasn't the best decision.  Seller said they tested like new.


If you have the ability I would at least reflow the solder in the pins and clean them thoroughly. If you want me to check one out and even replace the solder, I would be happy to help.


----------



## BackwardPawn

Paladin79 said:


> If you have the ability I would at least reflow the solder in the pins and clean them thoroughly. If you want me to check one out and even replace the solder, I would be happy to help.


Thanks for the offer.  If I did it myself, do you just touch an iron to the pin briefly to melt the solder and let it harden again?  I think I'll start by just cleaning the leads with something.

I should have some NOS Chatham 6AS7G tubes in a few days.  I'll wait and see how those work out before doing anything drastic with these.  Most people here seem to like those a better, anyway.


----------



## Paladin79

BackwardPawn said:


> Thanks for the offer.  If I did it myself, do you just touch an iron to the pin briefly to melt the solder and let it harden again?  I think I'll start by just cleaning the leads with something.
> 
> I should have some NOS Chatham 6AS7G tubes in a few days.  I'll wait and see how those work out before doing anything drastic with these.  Most people here seem to like those a better, anyway.


You can heat the outside of the pin and even add a bit of new rosin core solder to the center if you like, it will help the old solder reflow.


----------



## BackwardPawn

Paladin79 said:


> You can heat the outside of the pin and even add a bit of new rosin core solder to the center if you like, it will help the old solder reflow.


I tried using a magic eraser, but it was turning that black so I used a scotch bright pad to get most of the grime off and then polished with magic eraser.  Hopefully it was just getting a bad connection in the amp and I won't have to re-solder.  I'll try it out in the morning.


----------



## BackwardPawn

BackwardPawn said:


> I tried using a magic eraser, but it was turning that black so I used a scotch bright pad to get most of the grime off and then polished with magic eraser.  Hopefully it was just getting a bad connection in the amp and I won't have to re-solder.  I'll try it out in the morning.


I know its not quite morning, but I couldn't wait.  Cleaning the tubes worked.  They now sound about how I expected them too.  Nice and warm, but clear.


----------



## SHIMACM

I killed the riddle of that Chatam 6as7g. He's actually a Chatham 6520.

Can anyone tell me if Chatham 6520 is better than Chatham / Tung-sol 6as7g?


----------



## Paladin79

BackwardPawn said:


> I know its not quite morning, but I couldn't wait.  Cleaning the tubes worked.  They now sound about how I expected them too.  Nice and warm, but clear.


Very good. I clean all tubes before they go into my tester, I generally use a brass bristled brush, cue tips, alcohol without lanolin, and tape head cleaner. (It leaves no residue)
I have most every type of Deoxit made but I only use that if the pins are slightly corroded.

If I re-solder the pins I will also use a rosin flux remover. I add liquid rosin inside each pin with a sharp pick. Rosin is what cleans the metal and allows the solder to adhere. I do not like the idea of reflowing Russian solder after it broke down in the first place so I remove as much of the old solder as I can and start fresh with silver solder. Most solder has a rosin core and that is great for fairly clean metal surfaces but even some of those need a drop of liquid rosin.


----------



## SHIMACM

Chatham 6as7g / 6520 has a copper rod, while mine does not. Has anyone heard of both types? Is there a difference in sound?


----------



## bcowen

BackwardPawn said:


> I know its not quite morning, but I couldn't wait.  Cleaning the tubes worked.  They now sound about how I expected them too.  Nice and warm, but clear.



Good to hear!  Did you clean the tube socket(s) too?  If the pins on the tube were cruddy, imagine how much of that crud was scraped off by inserting/removing the tube and has now taken up residence in the socket.   Good old pipe cleaners moistened with some isopropyl alcohol (but *not* rubbing alcohol as @Paladin79 notes) work well for cleaning octal sockets assuming the socket itself is in good shape (ie: no corrosion or heavy oxidation).

https://www.amazon.com/BJ-Long-Regu...words=BJ+Pipe+Cleaners&qid=1604411927&sr=8-15


----------



## gibosi

SHIMACM said:


> I killed the riddle of that Chatam 6as7g. He's actually a Chatham 6520.
> 
> Can anyone tell me if Chatham 6520 is better than Chatham / Tung-sol 6as7g?



While I don't own a 6520, a fellow Head-Fier whose ears I trust wrote this about the 6520

"I'll have to respectfully disagree with those who say they don't sound any different than a regular TS 6AS7G.  To my ears they do.  Sweeter and more resolving, they are kind of a half-step between a TS 6AS7G and a GEC GAS7G IMO.  I got rid of my regular 6AS7s after getting the 6520 because I couldn't get into listening to the regular version anymore.   Now I just bounce between the 5998 and the 6520 depending on what headphone I'm using."


----------



## BackwardPawn

Paladin79 said:


> Very good. I clean all tubes before they go into my tester, I generally use a brass bristled brush, cue tips, alcohol without lanolin, and tape head cleaner. (It leaves no residue)
> I have most every type of Deoxit made but I only use that if the pins are slightly corroded.
> 
> If I re-solder the pins I will also use a rosin flux remover. I add liquid rosin inside each pin with a sharp pick. Rosin is what cleans the metal and allows the solder to adhere. I do not like the idea of reflowing Russian solder after it broke down in the first place so I remove as much of the old solder as I can and start fresh with silver solder. Most solder has a rosin core and that is great for fairly clean metal surfaces but even some of those need a drop of liquid rosin.


I'll probably go back later with a brush and some ethanol or tape head cleaner since it'll resist corrosion, I was just trying to use what I've got for a good connection.  My soldering iron broke several years back and I haven't really needed one, but I'll order one when I do.


----------



## Paladin79

BackwardPawn said:


> I'll probably go back later with a brush and some ethanol or tape head cleaner since it'll resist corrosion, I was just trying to use what I've got for a good connection.  My soldering iron broke several years back and I haven't really needed one, but I'll order one when I do.


For no more than you solder, something like this should be sufficient.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Weller-Sol...407865?hash=item4223611a79:g:e94AAOSwpbhfmv0L

I ran my own business for years so I still have Weller soldering stations new in the box if one of mine ever fails. I tend to use Kester .020 silver bearing solder for use inside pins, the small diameter is great. SN62,PB36,AG02   SN being tin (stannum), PB being lead (plumbum), AG being silver (argentum).

Silver cuts down on corrosion.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> For no more than you solder, something like this should be sufficient.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Weller-Sol...407865?hash=item4223611a79:g:e94AAOSwpbhfmv0L
> 
> ...


Is a basic desoldering pump tool suffice for removal of old solder inside of pins?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 3, 2020)

SHIMACM said:


> Chatham 6as7g / 6520 has a copper rod, while mine does not. Has anyone heard of both types? Is there a difference in sound?



So would that make mine a 6520 or a 6AS7G?  (see below)


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Is a basic desoldering pump tool suffice for removal of old solder inside of pins?


I use a Soldapullt myself, be careful of some of the knock offs, many do not work well.
https://www.all-spec.com/Product/DS...u_HEUjlurrPvMR4L_cq6sj-gi5DL6z0hoCPVsQAvD_BwE

It generally helps to use some fresh solder on the tips of the pins to get the solder flowing as you head the outside of the pins.

I only heat the outside portion of the pins to help with clean up later and I rotate the tubes in a panavise. This shows how I put a drop of liquid rosin inside each pin after solder removal. I can then slide the new solder inside the pin before I begin heating the outside to insure I have good coverage on the inside. I tend to keep the tube fairly flat when doing the actual soldering so the solder does not flow any farther than inside the pin itself.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> For no more than you solder, something like this should be sufficient.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Weller-Sol...407865?hash=item4223611a79:g:e94AAOSwpbhfmv0L
> 
> ...


this any good?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> this any good?


I doubt it but if that is your hand holding it, you can always give it a try unless you are in a store right now lol. I have not tried many other brands but I know Jason at Schiit said he tried a few knockoffs of the Soldapullt and they were junk. The smaller ones just do not seem to have the power of the larger types.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 3, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I doubt it but if that is your hand holding it, you can always give it a try unless you are in a store right now lol. I have not tried many other brands but I know Jason at Schiit said he tried a few knockoffs of the Soldapullt and they were junk. The smaller ones just do not seem to have the power of the larger types.


I haven't tried it yet, mixed reviews on YouTube, some like the one handed use , others either hated or loved the tip.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002MJMXD4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_ZlzOFbP4R4BH3


----------



## SHIMACM

gibosi said:


> While I don't own a 6520, a fellow Head-Fier whose ears I trust wrote this about the 6520
> 
> "I'll have to respectfully disagree with those who say they don't sound any different than a regular TS 6AS7G.  To my ears they do.  Sweeter and more resolving, they are kind of a half-step between a TS 6AS7G and a GEC GAS7G IMO.  I got rid of my regular 6AS7s after getting the 6520 because I couldn't get into listening to the regular version anymore.   Now I just bounce between the 5998 and the 6520 depending on what headphone I'm using."



Interesting that comment. It makes me want a 6520 in my collection.


----------



## SHIMACM

Ripper2860 said:


> So would that make mine a 6520 or a 6AS7G?  (see below)



I believe it is a 6520 then.


----------



## gibosi

SHIMACM said:


> I believe it is a 6520 then.



A "true" 6520 looks identical to a regular TS 6AS7G. However, as we have seen here recently, sometimes, for reasons unknown, 5998s labeled as 6520 are out there.


----------



## SHIMACM

gibosi said:


> A "true" 6520 looks identical to a regular TS 6AS7G. However, as we have seen here recently, sometimes, for reasons unknown, 5998s labeled as 6520 are out there.







Based on these images it looks more like 6520. See that my Chatham 6as7g (first image) has a different internal structure.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> I believe it is a 6520 then.


I was gonna dispute this but looking at the data sheets... very close. interesting.


----------



## SHIMACM

In addition to the steel rod, mine has a chrome top and part of the plates is silver, while the others are made of copper, the top is transparent and the plate is of a single color.


----------



## gibosi

SHIMACM said:


> Based on these images it looks more like 6520. See that my Chatham 6as7g (first image) has a different internal structure.



Keep in mind that the construction of the TS/Chatham 6AS7G changed over the 20 some years of it's production. And therefore, you will need to control for the year of manufacture. That is, it is necessary to find a 6520 and a TS 6AS7G that were both manufactured at the same time to compare the construction.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 3, 2020)

Chatham / Tung-Sol had at least 2 variations of the 6AS7G, as far as I know...

1) Top getter / flashing version with the chrome trim at the top and bottom of the plates, a top single D getter (from what I can see), and steel posts. (Right)

2) Bottom getter/flashing version with double D getter holders and copper posts.  No chrome trim on top and bottom of the plates. (Left)


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Ripper2860 said:


> Chatham / Tung-Sol had 2 variations of the 6AS7G, as far as I know...
> 
> 1) a top getter / flashing version with the chrome trim at the top and bottom of the plates and a top single D getter (from what I can see) steel posts
> 2) a bottom getter/flashing version with double D with copper posts.



These are the ones I have - matched pair (and selling because I like the 5998s/6520s so much). They appear to have double-D getters at the top, but not easily visible.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 3, 2020)

Yeah, I couldn't really tell if there was one or two getter holders on top.  The shielding and flashing get in the way of a clear view.


----------



## therremans

Are most of these 6520s labeled as Chatham 6AS7G and one must know the construction? Or was 6520 printed on a majority of the tube bases. Also did Tung sol make any of the 6520?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

therremans said:


> Are most of these 6520s labeled as Chatham 6AS7G and one must know the construction? Or was 6520 printed on a majority of the tube bases. Also did Tung sol make any of the 6520?



My two 6520s are labelled as such. 

Tube 1:




Tube 2:


----------



## Velozity

I don't think you can tell the difference between a 6520 and a 6AS7G by looking at construction.  6520 is essentially a 6AS7G with better specs and tighter tolerances.  Just look at the spec sheets.  6520 gm is a range of 6.4 mA/V - 7.8 mA/V.  6AS7G gm is a range of 5.8 mA/V - 8.2 mA/V.  Mu on the 6520 is a range of 1.9 - 2.5.  Mu on the 6AS7G is 1.4 - 2.6. Max plate voltage on the 6520 is 300V.  Max on the 6AS7G is 275V.  From the Tung-Sol datasheet, the difference is:  




I would say there are no visual differences between these two tubes (manufactured at the same time, same place).  Of course there are various builds of each, but that doesn't mean one is the other.  If it says 6520 on the base then it's a 6520.  This is a little more tricky with the 6520 domino plate version, but that is related to the 5998, not the 6AS7G (two totally different tubes).


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 3, 2020)

I've seen one 6520 with the 6AS7G style plates and upon visual inspection could not really tell a difference between them.  They seem to be far more rare than the domino plated tubes labeled 6520.


----------



## BackwardPawn

Ripper2860 said:


> Chatham / Tung-Sol had at least 2 variations of the 6AS7G, as far as I know...
> 
> 1) Top getter / flashing version with the chrome trim at the top and bottom of the plates, a top single D getter (from what I can see), and steel posts. (Right)
> 
> 2) Bottom getter/flashing version with double D getter holders and copper posts.  No chrome trim on top and bottom of the plates. (Left)



Just curious, is there any difference in sound between the top and bottom getter style?  I just confirmed an order on two bottom getter tubes.  The seller implied the difference had to do with biasing.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> this any good?



I'll say this on solder suckers:  I've tried probably a half dozen of them over the years, and none of them worked worth a crap. I mean even a remote crap. Then I bought and tried the Soldapullt after @Paladin79 recommended it, and it works like a charm.  Short of a multi-hundred dollar desoldering vacuum _station_, the Soldapullt is *it* and it works very well at this particular task (sucking tube pins). So if you're looking at something else, my input is simply this: don't.   The Soldapullt is also available on Amazon with free shipping if you have Prime.  And as @Paladin79 already warned, beware of cheap Chinese knock-offs (also available on Amazon).  The one linked below is the real deal.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006GOKVKI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I ran my own business for years so I still have Weller soldering stations new in the box if one of mine ever fails. I tend to use Kester .020 silver bearing solder for use inside pins, the small diameter is great. SN62,PB36,AG02   SN being tin (stannum), PB being lead (plumbum), AG being silver (argentum).
> 
> Silver cuts down on corrosion.



Also available on Amazon, and this diameter works quite nicely for tube pins:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DEUYBY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Apologies for coming across like an Amazon fanboy.  I'm really not and certainly not trying to promote them...I'm just a free shipping addict.


----------



## BackwardPawn

bcowen said:


> Apologies for coming across like an Amazon fanboy.  I'm really not and certainly not trying to promote them...I'm just a free shipping addict.


Unless you can find something local (and then have to brave the pandemic), its the only way to receive it in two days or less.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Also available on Amazon, and this diameter works quite nicely for tube pins:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DEUYBY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Apologies for coming across like an Amazon fanboy.  I'm really not and certainly not trying to promote them...I'm just a free shipping addict.


Well I just bought both haha.


----------



## Ripper2860

BackwardPawn said:


> Just curious, is there any difference in sound between the top and bottom getter style?  I just confirmed an order on two bottom getter tubes.  The seller implied the difference had to do with biasing.



My preference is the bottom getter version.  Seems a bit warmer with a bit more impact on the bottom-end.  Don't get me wrong, both are nice sounding tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 3, 2020)

BackwardPawn said:


> Unless you can find something local (and then have to brave the pandemic), its the only way to receive it in two days or less.



That also requires getting dressed.  I can stay in my PJ's while shopping at Amazon.  LOL!!


----------



## BackwardPawn

bcowen said:


> That also requires getting dressed.  I can stay in my PJ's while shopping at Amazon.  LOL!!


The bad thing is when you log into a meeting and then remember you're still in PJs


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> My preference is the bottom getter version.  Seems a bit warmer with a bit more impact on the bottom-end.  Don't get me wrong, both are nice sounding tubes.


Nah you were right from the beginning.. bottom or nada..


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Are most of these 6520s labeled as Chatham 6AS7G and one must know the construction? Or was 6520 printed on a majority of the tube bases. Also did Tung sol make any of the 6520?


I had an ideal that it was an exclusive contract to Tung Sol to make the 6520.. any other 6520's out there are rebranded Tung Sols..  (my assumption, and you know what that does.. )


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Nah you were right from the beginning..



Please take that back.  Go back and look who you were replying to.


----------



## Paladin79

I just happened to receive a Chatham 6as7G, a very nice sounding tube and it was a bargain.

Oh yeah I would remind folks who are talking top or bottom getter, the Tung Sol 5998 is top getter and a very well respected tube.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I just happened to receive a Chatham 6as7G, a very nice sounding tube and it was a bargain.
> 
> Oh yeah I would remind folks who are talking top or bottom getter, the Tung Sol 5998 is top getter and a very well respected tube.



But not all 5998's have top getters.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 4, 2020)

gibosi said:


> But not all 5998's have top getters.


True, the Tung Sols I own do, those appear to be Chathams. Chatham was a division of Tung Sol.

The _Tung_-_Sol_ brand name is now owned by the New Sensor _Corporation_, the _same company_ that owns the brands Sovtek and Electro-Harmonix.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Please take that back.  Go back and look who you were replying to





Paladin79 said:


> I just happened to receive a Chatham 6as7G, a very nice sounding tube and it was a bargain.
> 
> Oh yeah I would remind folks who are talking top or bottom getter, the Tung Sol 5998 is top getter and a very well respected tube.


The lower getter 5998 are reported to be _very_ special.


----------



## raindownthunda (Nov 4, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> The lower getter 5998 are reported to be _very_ special.



Here is a 5998 I have with a top and bottom O getter:


----------



## gibosi

raindownthunda said:


> Here is a 5998 I have with a top and bottom O getter:



Your 5998 with both top and bottom getters, with green print on the base, was manufactured in 1966. And I have two, one manufactured in 1968 and one in 1969, both with green print. However, I'm not sure if all 5998's with green print have both top and bottom getters.


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 4, 2020)

I only looked at a couple I have laying around, some of mine are loaned out right now.

And I do believe you gentlemen are referring to a side getter as a bottom getter.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I only looked at a couple I have laying around, some of mine are loaned out right now.
> 
> And I do believe you gentlemen are referring to a side getter as a bottom getter.



It might be called a side getter, but it is located below the bottom mica spacer, so it seems to me that either description could be considered correct.


----------



## Paladin79

Lol


----------



## JKDJedi

Where you guys get all these fancy 5998's from?


----------



## maxpudding

gibosi said:


> Your 5998 with both top and bottom getters, with green print on the base, was manufactured in 1966. And I have two, one manufactured in 1968 and one in 1969, both with green print. However, I'm not sure if all 5998's with green print have both top and bottom getters.



Hi Gibosi, two of my 5998’s have top and bottom getters, both have white prints.


----------



## gibosi

maxpudding said:


> Hi Gibosi, two of my 5998’s have top and bottom getters, both have white prints.



Can you tell us the date of manufacture?


----------



## maxpudding

gibosi said:


> Can you tell us the date of manufacture?



I'll show the photos of one of the tubes, no idea on the manufacturing date, but both have factory codes of 3226824-3


----------



## gibosi

maxpudding said:


> I'll show the photos of one of the tubes, no idea on the manufacturing date, but both have factory codes of 3226824-3





Thank you. 

3226824-3

322 = Tung-Sol's EIA number

6824 = Year 1968 week 24

3 = factory

Interesting, while my 1968 tube has green paint, yours has white. So for reasons unknown, these late 1960's 5998s might have either green or white paint.


----------



## maxpudding

gibosi said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 3226824-3
> 
> ...



Ah I see, thank you very much on the explanation of what the manufacturing code means.There’s always something new we learn everyday


----------



## attmci (Nov 4, 2020)

gibosi said:


> But not all 5998's have top getters.


Clear-top? Nice.

I can see you on the tube, Ken.


----------



## therremans (Nov 4, 2020)

Does anyone know what year mine could be? 1957, week 24, plant 5. It was sold to me as a NOS no label.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 3226824-3
> 
> ...


there's a few of these listed on ebay.. (Japan)


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 3226824-3
> 
> ...



What about red paint ones? Does anyone have those? I see a couple of those listed for sale, none of mine have red paint.


----------



## JTbbb

Hello all, to help along with the study of this fascinating tube hobby, I enclose some pictures of my 5998’s


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Hello all, to help along with the study of this fascinating tube hobby, I enclose some pictures of my 5998’s



A tube porn collage.  Most excellent!


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> A tube porn collage.  Most excellent!


Something about that red leather that did it for me...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 5, 2020)

Dammit.  I'd love to post up some tube pr0n, but unfortunately @bcowen has not returned my faux bearskin rug.    

BTW, Bill -- You're not supposed to 'pose' with the tubes.


----------



## GDuss

gibosi said:


> Your 5998 with both top and bottom getters, with green print on the base, was manufactured in 1966. And I have two, one manufactured in 1968 and one in 1969, both with green print. However, I'm not sure if all 5998's with green print have both top and bottom getters.



I have a pair of TS 5998's, both with top and bottom getters, both with green print.  The dates are 6925 and 6937, so both '69's.  Obviously this doesn't help determine whether there are green print versions with only 1 getter, but it's more data for the dual-getter tube category.


----------



## therremans




----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


>


photography just went up 1000 notches here..very nice. 💯


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> photography just went up 1000 notches here..very nice. 💯



HD tube porn.  Even mo' excellent!


----------



## Paladin79 (Nov 5, 2020)

This is a tube that just arrived for repair, the gentleman had to push down on the tube to get the filaments to light. Filament connections are at pins two and seven. This should be a quick and easy fix and all the more reason to replace the remaining solder in this and others he sent.  To make it even easier, look at the pin directly below the tip of my index finger. 



Oh and just for the heck of it I tried rosin core solder to see how it would stick, this needs more liquid rosin for sure because of age and possible corrosion.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I accidentally overbid and bought some tung sol 6080 tubes for more than they were worth (3 of them).  Pm if interested in one and I will let a couple go for cheap ($20?).


blink of an eye... and it's here... 😁 thanks @PsilocybinCube *Tung Sol 6080*


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> blink of an eye... and it's here... 😁 thanks @PsilocybinCube *Tung Sol 6080*


I just received one myself but no chance to listen yet.


----------



## attmci

JTbbb said:


> Hello all, to help along with the study of this fascinating tube hobby, I enclose some pictures of my 5998’s


Box dated July, 1963. Tube coded 418. hmmm.


----------



## Slade01

attmci said:


> Box dated July, 1963. Tube coded 418. hmmm.



418 code...jinkies, a clue!  The plot thickens...


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Slade01 said:


> 418 code...jinkies, a clue!  The plot thickens...


It's 3 less than a 421a....hmmm....


----------



## PsilocybinCube

@JKDJedi mentioned this many pages ago, but it have to reiterate how utterly underrated the cheapo Thomson 6080 from France is.  It sounds cleaner than almost any tube I've heard.  It doesn't have the warmth or depth of the 5998 but it's as good or better than most power  tubes I've paid more $ to purchase.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> @JKDJedi mentioned this many pages ago, but it have to reiterate how utterly underrated the cheapo Thomson 6080 from France is.  It sounds cleaner than almost any tube I've heard.  It doesn't have the warmth or depth of the 5998 but it's as good or better than most power  tubes I've paid more $ to purchase.


Nice amp😉
How do you like the Westinghouse driver with the Thompson?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> Nice amp😉
> How do you like the Westinghouse driver with the Thompson?


I like the Westinghouse quite a lot.  It's definitely got a great sound.  I have three Westinghouse 6SN7 tubes.  The taller Reliatron 6SN7GTB with a top D-getter I find a little bass-light, but very detailed.  The Selectron 6SN7GTB is almost the same build as the Reliatron but it uses a top O-getter.

The shorter base, clear top, and bottom getter of the Reliatron from the picture is my favorite.  It doesn't have some of the top-end sparkle of the GTB's with the top getter, but it has waaay more bass.  It's not quite as rich in the mid-range as the Melz, but that can be helped with a proper power tube like the 5998.

This is listening with the HD800 where I find myself drawn to bass-forward tubes.


----------



## JTbbb

Slade01 said:


> 418 code...jinkies, a clue!  The plot thickens...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I like the Westinghouse quite a lot.  It's definitely got a great sound.  I have three Westinghouse 6SN7 tubes.  The taller Reliatron 6SN7GTB with a top D-getter I find a little bass-light, but very detailed.  The Selectron 6SN7GTB is almost the same build as the Reliatron but it uses a top O-getter.
> 
> The shorter base, clear top, and bottom getter of the Reliatron from the picture is my favorite.  It doesn't have some of the top-end sparkle of the GTB's with the top getter, but it has waaay more bass.  It's not quite as rich in the mid-range as the Melz, but that can be helped with a proper power tube like the 5998.
> 
> This is listening with the HD800 where I find myself drawn to bass-forward tubes.


have to try that combo tonight. 🙂


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> have to try that combo tonight. 🙂


This morning I tried the 5998 with the shorter base Reliatron that was pictured with the Thomson.  In my opinion, the 5998 kind of makes things bloom and increases the sound stage.  It was a bolder sound if less precise than the Thomson.

I've always thought that shorter-base tubes were supposed to be inferior (i have no idea why I think that...) but I prefer the clear top, bottom getter, short-base version of the reliatron.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

I have this beauty coming in. Is this a brown base, a black base, or dark brown? I will find out on closer inspection next week.


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> I have this beauty coming in. Is this a brown base, a black base, or dark brown? I will find out on closer inspection next week.


And the box... 😁. Nice.


----------



## Slade01

JTbbb said:


> You guys are talking riddles to me, what are you thinking.


It's just a reference to what the hell the "418" code actually means.  If its a (manufacturing) date code, it doesn't seemingly correspond to the box date (but the box date could mean something different anyways like just when the tube was received or whatever, and not manufacture date. If its reference to EIA code (highly unlikely since tung-sols are "322") etc.  So yeah, its just another one of those would be mystery in deciphering codes that may not have a lot of consistencies back in the day or convoluted histories of branding/rebranding/manufacturing etc.


----------



## Slade01

CaptainFantastic said:


> I have this beauty coming in. Is this a brown base, a black base, or dark brown? I will find out on closer inspection next week.



Looks Dark Brown.  Very nice and distinctive.  It definitely looks like a sharp looking top tier tube.  Congrats!


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> You guys are talking riddles to me, what are you thinking.



The date code on one of your 5998s, "418", indicates that the tube was manufactured in the 18th week of 1954. But the box shows a date of July 1963. So if that tube came to you in that box, it implies it sat in a warehouse for 10 years!

But perhaps another of your 5998's came in that box? It is not clear to us....


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> The date code on one of your 5998s, "418", indicates that the tube was manufactured in the 18th week of 1954. But the box shows a date of July 1963. So if that tube came to you in that box, it implies it sat in a warehouse for 10 years!
> 
> But perhaps another of your 5998's came in that box? It is not clear to us....


Just got ship in the box they had at hand is my bet.


----------



## LoryWiv

CaptainFantastic said:


> I have this beauty coming in. Is this a brown base, a black base, or dark brown? I will find out on closer inspection next week.


Those are beautiful, @CaptainFantastic. I have GEC 6080 powers and 6V6 drivers and they are amongst my favorite tubes. Please let us know your impressions when you give them a spin!


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> The date code on one of your 5998s, "418", indicates that the tube was manufactured in the 18th week of 1954. But the box shows a date of July 1963. So if that tube came to you in that box, it implies it sat in a warehouse for 10 years!
> 
> But perhaps another of your 5998's came in that box? It is not clear to us....



The other box is identical to the one shown, but the graphics on the other tube are rather indistinct. Looking in detail at both tubes I would say they are both date code 418. So sat in a warehouse for 10 years is a possibility! Thanks for the information, it is much appreciated.


----------



## Slade01

Not sure if this is a good deal or not but will throw it out there anyways.  Saw this lot on ebay, potentially 2 tung sol/chatham 6080s included, one of which looks like its graphite plates.  Unfortunately you get some GE tubes as well.  LOL.  You do get alot of tubes to mess with, maybe someone just starting up this would be good.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-12-6080-1-6as7ga-RCA-GE-Chatham-Tubes/254766105933


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Not sure if this is a good deal or not but will throw it out there anyways.  Saw this lot on ebay, potentially 2 tung sol/chatham 6080s included, one of which looks like its graphite plates.  Unfortunately you get some GE tubes as well.  LOL.  You do get alot of tubes to mess with, maybe someone just starting up this would be good.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-12-6080-1-6as7ga-RCA-GE-Chatham-Tubes/254766105933



If that stays near $49, that's a _great _deal assuming the tubes test out decently.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 7, 2020)

Hooray of the day.  Got this Chatham a couple months ago as one of a pair, and the first triode on it was pegging a dead short. Finally got around to resoldering the pins today just to see if that would fix it, and bingo!  I did a full suck'n'solder routine and it tests out perfectly now.  Not quite at NOS GM levels but not far from it, and the triodes are within 10% of each other.  From trash can fodder to player.  The other one I received with it tested fine and I like the sound quite a bit, so I'm happy to now have a solid backup...for free (the seller refunded half my money when I advised them one tube had a short ).






A little tip for pin soldering for those (like me) that are not at the grand master level of @Paladin79 .   I've never had any issue getting a good solder connection on the inside of the tube pins. The issue (for me) has always been excess solder that wants to stick to the outside of the pin and then is a PITA to file back down to the original pin profile. Guess what solder won't stick to _and_ has a *way* higher melting point than a 750 degree soldering iron tip?  Graphite.  As in the business end of a pencil.  If you rub some around the outside of the pin (about 1/8" up from the tip is all you need), the solder won't stick to it.  Yup, a good old pencil will work fine to see if it helps. Just be careful not to get any_ inside_ the pin especially if you've sucked the old solder out.  I got the graphite sticks below as the width makes it a little easier to quickly rub on the pins:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004BPP4YC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Ripper2860

Dammit.  I just re-read your post and saw the link.  Guess I need to get a return label from Amazon.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Dammit.  I just re-read your post and saw the link.  Guess I need to get a return label from Amazon.



Naw, keep it.  That will work nicely for resoldering 9-pin tubes.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Hooray of the day.  Got this Chatham a couple months ago as one of a pair, and the first triode on it was pegging a dead short. Finally got around to resoldering the pins today just to see if that would fix it, and bingo!  I did a full suck'n'solder routine and it tests out perfectly now.  Not quite at NOS GM levels but not far from it, and the triodes are within 10% of each other.  From trash can fodder to player.  The other one I received with it tested fine and I like the sound quite a bit, so I'm happy to now have a solid backup...for free (the seller refunded half my money when I advised them one tube had a short ).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very good information. I do tend to keep the solder inside the pins but your tip will help others. The tubes I soldered yesterday had very tiny pin openings and I believe they were from 1935 or so. The rosin inside the solder was not enough to give a proper bond to the wires extending down into the pins so extra rosin was called for. 😀


----------



## adeadcrab

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Western...IOnTopCombiner&_trksid=p2508447.c100042.m2062


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Kind of off topic and I know cleaning was a topic before.

I'm looking to purchase only the Caig D25L-25CA.  This is the red fluid in the tube survival kit:

https://www.parts-express.com/caig-...nUakxFyT-3rJVKvPxXQuxUfCF-QuVZVUaAir8EALw_wcB

Does anyone know if you can purchase that separately?  On the website it looks like you can get the D100 or D5, but no D25:  https://caig.com/deoxit-d-series/

Thoughts?  Or do I just need to buy the whole tube survival kit?


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Kind of off topic and I know cleaning was a topic before.
> 
> I'm looking to purchase only the Caig D25L-25CA.  This is the red fluid in the tube survival kit:
> 
> ...



You can get the 25% solution in a pump spray on Amazon if that's what you want.  The 5% is quite a bit cheaper though and works quite well if you use it properly (apply liberally, let sit a few minutes, then hit it again). I don't like "spraying" Deoxit directly onto the surface, preferring to spray it on an applicator (pipe cleaner, cotton swab, etc) and then apply it to the intended surfaces with the applicator.  I only spray it directly if I'm trying to clean a pot or similar or in a place where an applicator won't work.  But that's just me...everyone has their own methods which probably work equally as well. 

https://www.amazon.com/CAIG-Laborat...eywords=caig+deoxit+25&qid=1604946491&sr=8-13

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-D5S-6-D...eywords=caig+deoxit+25&qid=1604946662&sr=8-16


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> You can get the 25% solution in a pump spray on Amazon if that's what you want.  The 5% is quite a bit cheaper though and works quite well if you use it properly (apply liberally, let sit a few minutes, then hit it again). I don't like "spraying" Deoxit directly onto the surface, preferring to spray it on an applicator (pipe cleaner, cotton swab, etc) and then apply it to the intended surfaces with the applicator.  I only spray it directly if I'm trying to clean a pot or similar or in a place where an applicator won't work.  But that's just me...everyone has their own methods which probably work equally as well.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/CAIG-Laborat...eywords=caig+deoxit+25&qid=1604946491&sr=8-13
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-D5S-6-D...eywords=caig+deoxit+25&qid=1604946662&sr=8-16


Thanks for the tip.  I'll probably just go that direction and it makes sense about not soaking your tubes with aerosol spray.

Has anyone tried the D100???  I'm assuming it's a little too strong?


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Thanks for the tip.  I'll probably just go that direction and it makes sense about not soaking your tubes with aerosol spray.
> 
> Has anyone tried the D100???  I'm assuming it's a little too strong?



I have some D100 in a little tube. It's much higher viscosity (about like maple syrup) and I'm sure it has some very practical uses. For cleaning tube sockets and tube pins and such, it seems to be a bit of overkill to me.


----------



## GDuss

Hey @bcowen , thanks for the recommendation on these, but I didn't realize I was getting so many.  I thought it was 10, but it was 10 packs, of 56 each.  Now I need to buy more amps so I have more sockets to clean  .


----------



## JKDJedi

GDuss said:


> Hey @bcowen , thanks for the recommendation on these, but I didn't realize I was getting so many.  I thought it was 10, but it was 10 packs, of 56 each.  Now I need to buy more amps so I have more sockets to clean  .


My same reaction when I got my lifetime supply


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> Hey @bcowen , thanks for the recommendation on these, but I didn't realize I was getting so many.  I thought it was 10, but it was 10 packs, of 56 each.  Now I need to buy more amps so I have more sockets to clean  .



LOL!  I think you can buy those in packs of 1, but the ten-pack is only about twice the price.  No such thing as too many pipe cleaners, right?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> My same reaction when I got my lifetime supply



And I honestly thought the same when I first bought them, until I had to reorder about a year later 'cause I'd used them all.  You'll thank me in November next year.


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> And I honestly thought the same when I first bought them, until I had to reorder about a year later 'cause I'd used them all.  You'll thank me in November next year.



If I need to buy more in a year, which would work out to an average of 1.53 pipe cleaners used per day, I will definitely be the first person to thank you


----------



## JKDJedi

GDuss said:


> If I need to buy more in a year, which would work out to an average of 1.53 pipe cleaners used per day, I will definitely be the first person to thank you


They are super handy in wiping down the entire bottom of the tube (Detoxit anyone?)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> They are super handy in wiping down the entire bottom of the tube (Detoxit anyone?)



I use the pipe cleaners for cleaning tube pins as well as sockets.  Fold over one end, spray Deoxit (or Detoxit if you have leftovers from your last treatment ) on it and the pipe cleaner surrounds the pin nicely for application.

Cut in half first, and that way you'll have a daily supply for 3.06 years.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I use the pipe cleaners for cleaning tube pins as well as sockets.  Fold over one end, spray Deoxit (or Detoxit if you have leftovers from your last treatment ) on it and the pipe cleaner surrounds the pin nicely for application.
> 
> Cut in half first, and that way you'll have a daily supply for 3.06 years.


lol... dyslexic anyone..


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> GEC 6080 in Feliks-Audio Elise, drivers are Fivre 6V6. Loving every minute!



I still have the same tubes - Fivre 6V6 and GEC 6080.


----------



## attmci (Nov 14, 2020)

GDuss said:


> Hey @bcowen , thanks for the recommendation on these, but I didn't realize I was getting so many.  I thought it was 10, but it was 10 packs, of 56 each.  Now I need to buy more amps so I have more sockets to clean  .


What are these for?

Clean these?

https://www.heavengifts.com/product/VapeOnly-Zen-Pipe-Kit.html


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> What are these for?
> 
> Clean these?
> 
> https://www.heavengifts.com/product/VapeOnly-Zen-Pipe-Kit.html


----------



## GDuss

attmci said:


> What are these for?
> 
> Clean these?
> 
> https://www.heavengifts.com/product/VapeOnly-Zen-Pipe-Kit.html



If I start smoking pipes I might actually be able to use all those cleaners in a year. I cleaned all 9 sockets in the GOTL today, and used 9 pipe cleaners. Then I used the middle of the 9 cleaners to clean some tube pins.

I could just bring them to a Canjam and hand them out, but Covid!!!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> If I start smoking pipes I might actually be able to use all those cleaners in a year. I cleaned all 9 sockets in the GOTL today, and used 9 pipe cleaners. Then I used the middle of the 9 cleaners to clean some tube pins.
> 
> I could just bring them to a Canjam and hand them out, but Covid!!!



You only used 9 pipe cleaners for 9 sockets?  They're only 63.8% clean then.


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> You only used 9 pipe cleaners for 9 sockets?  They're only 63.8% clean then.



I'll repeat the protocol tomorrow and then they'll be 127.6% clean


----------



## maxpudding

Just a quick question for you guys here, how often do you clean your pipes pins?


----------



## JKDJedi

maxpudding said:


> Just a quick question for you guys here, how often do you clean your pipes pins?


I clean newly arrivals and do a quick visual when swapping tubes.


----------



## attmci

GDuss said:


> I'll repeat the protocol tomorrow and then they'll be 127.6% clean


Proof it.


----------



## maxpudding

There’s a pair of tung-sol 6as7’s going for $290

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...360400?hash=item34350d40d0:g:lzQAAOSwbFNfjhpi

Crazy!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I clean newly arrivals and do a quick visual when swapping tubes.



Do you use any chemicals with that visual cleaning, or just your X-ray vision?


----------



## GDuss

attmci said:


> Proof it.



I used 91% isopropyl alcohol, isn't that like 182 proof?


----------



## attmci (Nov 15, 2020)

GDuss said:


> I used 91% isopropyl alcohol, isn't that like 182 proof?


Why not use the Deoxit spray? I want you to prove that the amp sounds like 128% better. LOL

BTW, I am not Cowen. You quoted the wrong person.


----------



## LoryWiv

maxpudding said:


> There’s a pair of tung-sol 6as7’s going for $290
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...360400?hash=item34350d40d0:g:lzQAAOSwbFNfjhpi
> 
> Crazy!


I actually bid on these but got out when it crossed $200. They look really clean BUT agree that's beyond their value.


----------



## GDuss

attmci said:


> Why not use the Deoxit spray? I want you to prove that the amp sounds like 128% better. LOL
> 
> BTW, I am not Cowen. You quoted the wrong person.



Got it.  I didn't say it would sound 128% better, it was merely a joke that it would be 128% cleaner.  Maybe not the greatest joke.  Either way, after doing the cleaning, I can't tell any difference in sound.  There were occasionally some crackling sounds with certain tubes (most commonly with 6BX7's), and this seemed to be from 2 specific sockets, thus the interest in cleaning them.  I haven't heard that noise today from those sockets but I'm using 6080's right now (Sylvania WC's from the mid-60's... just so I at least post something relevant to this thread   ). Tomorrow I'm going to switch to the 6BX7's that I know have had noise in the past and see what happens. I've never used Deoxit before, maybe that's next.


----------



## Velozity

LoryWiv said:


> I actually bid on these but got out when it crossed $200. They look really clean BUT agree that's beyond their value.




Wow, just wow.  This is the second time in a few weeks that a pair of Chatham 6AS7G will go for $300+.  The market is hot!


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Nov 16, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> I actually bid on these but got out when it crossed $200. They look really clean BUT agree that's beyond their value.



I have a pair for sale at a lower price (at purchase price) but I am in the EU. If anyone is willing to wait, I haven't had a single package not make it across the Atlantic safely.

(I've had packages this year take between 1 week and 4 weeks to make the journey to/from U.S., but the 4 weeks one was at the height of the pandemic crisis)


----------



## maxpudding

LoryWiv said:


> I actually bid on these but got out when it crossed $200. They look really clean BUT agree that's beyond their value.



I quit after it crossed the $100 line


----------



## DenverW

That price boggles my mind.  I'd find that a bit high for 5998 tubes, let alone 6as7g.  I think I got my last tung sol 6as7g for 40 bucks or so, that was under a year ago.


----------



## maxpudding

CaptainFantastic said:


> I have a pair for sale at a lower price (at purchase price) but I am in the EU. If anyone is willing to wait, I haven't had a single package not make it across the Atlantic safely.
> 
> (I've had packages this year take between 1 week and 4 weeks to make the journey to/from U.S., but the 4 weeks one was at the height of the pandemic crisis)



Any photos or a link that you could share? Thanks 😊


----------



## LoryWiv

CaptainFantastic said:


> I have a pair for sale at a lower price (at purchase price) but I am in the EU. If anyone is willing to wait, I haven't had a single package not make it across the Atlantic safely.
> 
> (I've had packages this year take between 1 week and 4 weeks to make the journey to/from U.S., but the 4 weeks one was at the height of the pandemic crisis)


I may be interested but have a question: Do NOS 7AS7G's run as hot as 6080's? I could heat a small room with what emanates from my GEC 6080's, hoping 6AS7G's aren't quite so thermally intense but approach the same quality.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

LoryWiv said:


> I may be interested but have a question: Do NOS 7AS7G's run as hot as 6080's? I could heat a small room with what emanates from my GEC 6080's, hoping 6AS7G's aren't quite so thermally intense but approach the same quality.



Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but based on my less than two hours of testing the pair they do not run hot. I thought it was the same as the 5998s and 421As, which is much, much cooler than the one 6080 I tried. 

Regarding the request to post the link, not sure I am allowed to post for sale messages here so please look at my recent posting activity for the 6AS7G post. The price is dictated by what Langrex originally sold them for, I asked the original seller too about this. I recently ordered the TT2 so I am selling quite a few things to lessen the guilt, but I am under zero pressure to sell tubes at anything but par with purchase value.


----------



## attmci (Nov 16, 2020)

maxpudding said:


> There’s a pair of tung-sol 6as7’s going for $290
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...360400?hash=item34350d40d0:g:lzQAAOSwbFNfjhpi
> 
> Crazy!


True. I got mine for 15 or 20 bucks a couple of years ago. Used once....and moved on to 5998.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> True. I got mine for 15 or 20 bucks a couple of years ago. Used once....and moved on to 5998.


I'm just waiting for someone new to post pics of these guys asking... "Are these 5998"? 😁


----------



## LoryWiv

attmci said:


> True. I got mine for 15 or 20 bucks a couple of years ago. Used once....and moved on to 5998.


What are the main areas where 5998 bests 6AS7G, something specific or just overall?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

The 6AS7G arrived safely. It's a nice brown base. Testing tonight. It was tested at Billington though, so I have high hopes that it is clean and sounds as good as it looks. This will be my last tube purchase for a long while.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> The 6AS7G arrived safely. It's a nice brown base. Testing tonight. It was tested at Billington though, so I have high hopes that it is clean and sounds as good as it looks.



Nice!!





CaptainFantastic said:


> This will be my last tube purchase for a long while.


----------



## therremans

CaptainFantastic said:


> The 6AS7G arrived safely. It's a nice brown base. Testing tonight. It was tested at Billington though, so I have high hopes that it is clean and sounds as good as it looks. This will be my last tube purchase for a long while.


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> The 6AS7G arrived safely. It's a nice brown base. Testing tonight. It was tested at Billington though, so I have high hopes that it is clean and sounds as good as it looks. This will be my last tube purchase for a long while.


please post your initial reactions to the first roll of this baby. 🙂


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Nice!!


🤣🤣🤣 even I laughed .. 😂😂😂 two weeks later. .. check out this find I found!! So sick dudes ... 😂🤣


----------



## JKDJedi

LoryWiv said:


> What are the main areas where 5998 bests 6AS7G, something specific or just overall?


I like how @SHIMACM put it... adds another layer of music...


----------



## therremans

LoryWiv said:


> What are the main areas where 5998 bests 6AS7G, something specific or just overall?


What are you favorite driver tubes?


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> please post your initial reactions to the first roll of this baby. 🙂



Please don't.  I'm strapped for cash with the holidays coming and I do not need the angst.


----------



## GDuss

bcowen said:


> Nice!!



Maybe he really is done buying tubes this time.  It's 2020, all kinds of unpredictable things are happening.  But if he is, hopefully he can tell us the cure for this disease


----------



## CaptainFantastic

GDuss said:


> Maybe he really is done buying tubes this time.  It's 2020, all kinds of unpredictable things are happening.  But if he is, hopefully he can tell us the cure for this disease



OK, so here's the cure. Take the budget you have allocated to this hobby for next year, multiply it by 2, then spend it all in one go this year on a Hugo TT2.

Not to mention that I now realize that between the DAC, tube amp and tubes, the amp is definitely the weak link. So if any funds can still be spent next year, they should definitely go in that direction, not on more tubes.

Someone told me there might be ways to upgrade the WA3 with some nicer capacitors and the like. My New Year's resolution will be to not read up on that.


----------



## LoryWiv

therremans said:


> What are you favorite driver tubes?


KR VT-231 or GEC 6V6 with adapters.


----------



## Velozity

It's hard not to love the Chatham 6AS7G.  I've just added 4 NOS top getter versions to my stable, and they sound just as good as my bottom getter ones.  Tbe getters are the same shape, just in different places.  I find myself enjoying the clarity and neutrality of this tube.  It's my reference power tube when auditioning drivers and rectifiers.  I think it's crazy how they're going for $300/pair now, but honestly, if I didn't know any better and I paid that price I wouldn't be mad at myself.  These are really, really good.  Now I only need two more and I can get an Atma-Sphere OTL amp to use the Chathams on my Zu Audio speakers.😁

bottom getter left, top getter right


----------



## attmci

CaptainFantastic said:


> The 6AS7G arrived safely. It's a nice brown base. Testing tonight. It was tested at Billington though, so I have high hopes that it is clean and sounds as good as it looks. This will be my last tube purchase for a long while.


Do you need a pair for your amp? Sounds you had paid a lot.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> I'm just waiting for someone new to post pics of these guys asking... "Are these 5998"? 😁


Are these better than the A1834?


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Are these better than the A1834?


If your a GEC fanboy then no.


----------



## LoryWiv

Velozity said:


> It's hard not to love the Chatham 6AS7G.  I've just added 4 NOS top getter versions to my stable, and they sound just as good as my bottom getter ones.  Tbe getters are the same shape, just in different places.  I find myself enjoying the clarity and neutrality of this tube.  It's my reference power tube when auditioning drivers and rectifiers.  I think it's crazy how they're going for $300/pair now, but honestly, if I didn't know any better and I paid that price I wouldn't be mad at myself.  These are really, really good.  Now I only need two more and I can get an Atma-Sphere OTL amp to use the Chathams on my Zu Audio speakers.😁
> 
> bottom getter left, top getter right


Are Chatham and Tung Sol 6AS7G same manufacturer / tooling or substantially different in your experience?


----------



## Velozity

LoryWiv said:


> Are Chatham and Tung Sol 6AS7G same manufacturer / tooling or substantially different in your experience?




Same.  Chatham was a subsidiary of Tung-Sol.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> If your a GEC fanboy then no.


Could you please share some details in comparison?


----------



## SHIMACM

Chatham pair for $ 300 !? What madness !!! I paid $ 40 in mine this year yet. The way is to wait for all this speculation to pass to buy tubes again.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

SHIMACM said:


> Chatham pair for $ 300 !? What madness !!! I paid $ 40 in mine this year yet. The way is to wait for all this speculation to pass to buy tubes again.


I quite enjoy my Chatham 6AS7G, but I agree about the stratospheric appreciation in prices.  Heck, I just bought a Chatham 5998 for $102, so it seems odd to pay that much for the 6AS7G. 

In all fairness to the tube, I do agree that it is a very good reference tube.  I like it when trying out different drivers as another poster mentioned (I also like the Thomson 6080WA for that purpose).  It has a lot of space and detail.  It doesn't overwhelm.  When I use especially bass-forward tubes I almost enjoy the 6AS7G over the 5998 because it kind of gets out of the way of the driver.

That said, I think that what a lot of tube rollers enjoy is the warmth, expansion of the soundstage, and unique attributes of different tubes.  Where the 5998 does so well is expanding the soundstage and presenting a powerful & warm sound.  While I do think the Chatham 6AS7G has a wide sound, it doesn't have a particularly strong or unique sound signature to my ears.  

For most headphone listeners these days it seems like achieving 0% distortion with no coloration is their utmost desire.  I have a pretty nice SS amp and can get that when I want it.  That said, to me, the 6AS7G is like a better SS sound that doesn't alter the characteristics of the 6SN7.  The 5998 *amplifies* the characteristics of the 6SN7 in my opinion (which can be good or bad).

OK, so this is just my opinion and I think everything changes rig to rig, DAC to DAC, headphones to headphones.

TL;DR:  The Chatham 6AS7G is a great - if somewhat dry - wine that pairs well with many flavors.  The 5998 is a big, bold Malbec from Argentina that punches you in the mouth and leaves you asking for more.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

SHIMACM said:


> Chatham pair for $ 300 !? What madness !!! I paid $ 40 in mine this year yet. The way is to wait for all this speculation to pass to buy tubes again.



I agree with the sentiment, but is it speculation or just supply and demand? Speculation would entail (to my mind) that some people are buying with the intent of selling later at a higher price for a profit. Maybe this is happening.

But maybe it's that a) supply is dwindling because obviously these are not and haven't been manufactured for a long time and b) demand is increasing due to the ever increasing popularity of tube amps among moneyed folk. A is what it is and will get worse. B is unlikely to reverse. So the prices are probably not going to decrease. There is one other thing to consider regarding the prices: not all 6AS7Gs are equal these days. One could buy them for (far) less, but also be less sure of their condition and performance. Maybe the $300 pair went for that price because they were from a trusted seller and appeared to be in top, top, perfect condition? Not sure, I don't follow these sales.

I think one likely scenario medium to long-term is that new production tubes that impress are all of a sudden available and tube amp manufacturers switch to those kind of tubes... I'd say that that's the most likely long-term scenario. New models of tube amps will switch from using scarce, expensive and questionable NOS from the 20th century.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Nov 18, 2020)

CaptainFantastic said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but is it speculation or just supply and demand? Speculation would entail (to my mind) that some people are buying with the intent of selling later at a higher price for a profit. Maybe this is happening.
> 
> But maybe it's that a) supply is dwindling because obviously these are not and haven't been manufactured for a long time and b) demand is increasing due to the ever increasing popularity of tube amps among moneyed folk. A is what it is and will get worse. B is unlikely to reverse. So the prices are probably not going to decrease. There is one other thing to consider regarding the prices: not all 6AS7Gs are equal these days. One could buy them for (far) less, but also be less sure of their condition and performance. Maybe the $300 pair went for that price because they were from a trusted seller and appeared to be in top, top, perfect condition? Not sure, I don't follow these sales.
> 
> I think one likely scenario medium to long-term is that new production tubes that impress are all of a sudden available and tube amp manufacturers switch to those kind of tubes... I'd say that that's the most likely long-term scenario. New models of tube amps will switch from using scarce, expensive and questionable NOS from the 20th century.


Would be hard pressed selling those for a significant profit any time soon at that price IMO, but I'm ready to be proven wrong..

I think the perceived supply, at least on ebay, is low. Searching for 6AS7G/6080 yields significantly less results, especially non-generic RCA/GE branded, than it did even just a year ago.


----------



## maxpudding

PsilocybinCube said:


> The 5998 is a big, bold Malbec from Argentina that punches you in the mouth and leaves you asking for more.



Quite true! I love the 5998+6SN7 pairings, especially with sylvania in the driver seat.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but is it speculation or just supply and demand? Speculation would entail (to my mind) that some people are buying with the intent of selling later at a higher price for a profit. Maybe this is happening.
> 
> But maybe it's that a) supply is dwindling because obviously these are not and haven't been manufactured for a long time and b) demand is increasing due to the ever increasing popularity of tube amps among moneyed folk. A is what it is and will get worse. B is unlikely to reverse. So the prices are probably not going to decrease. There is one other thing to consider regarding the prices: not all 6AS7Gs are equal these days. One could buy them for (far) less, but also be less sure of their condition and performance. Maybe the $300 pair went for that price because they were from a trusted seller and appeared to be in top, top, perfect condition? Not sure, I don't follow these sales.
> 
> I think one likely scenario medium to long-term is that new production tubes that impress are all of a sudden available and tube amp manufacturers switch to those kind of tubes... I'd say that that's the most likely long-term scenario. New models of tube amps will switch from using scarce, expensive and questionable NOS from the 20th century.



It's interesting to see the price changes on NOS tubes over time.  I've been buying/rolling tubes for 25+ years (I've been an Ebay member since 1999 -- EEK!) and was rummaging around flea markets and hamfests before then.  Take a 6S*L*7 for one example.  20 years ago, a pair of '40's Sylvania VT-229's would easily fetch $150 (about $230 today) on Ebay.  Then the 6SL7 fell out of favor as manufacturers of new amps embraced the 6S*N*7, and today you can get that nice pair of Sylvanias for less than $50.  Then look at the Sylvania Bad Boy.  When the term was first coined by someone (what ~15 years ago?) the prices on Ebay skyrocketed.  Over the years the prices on those have gone up and down. Seems a couple years ago they were a current rave and prices were approaching $100/tube. The radar blip has diminished somewhat on those now, and I now see them as low as $50.  GEC KT-77?  Prices were high 20 years ago, and just continue to climb.  It's a universally praised tube with limited quantities produced leading to a major (available) supply shortage.  I've only been following the 6AS7 family for about a year so can't comment on how prices track, but my first purchase a year ago was for a quad of Tung Sol 6080's that I paid $16 for....delivered.  So I think supply has an influence, and forum/internet buzz has an influence. If everybody everywhere just quit talking about, say, a Chatham 6AS7G, I'd bet the prices would drop pretty quickly.


----------



## maxpudding

I hope bendix 6080wb prices would drop soon

🤭


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> I hope bendix 6080wb prices would drop soon
> 
> 🤭



Since you mentioned them, the prices just went up.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Since you mentioned them, the prices just went up.



.....ummmm yeah got it, so then....bendix 6080 graphite plates and gec 6as7 suck.....those GE 6080s now thats where its it at....


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> .....ummmm yeah got it, so then....bendix 6080 graphite plates and gec 6as7 suck.....those GE 6080s now thats where its it at....



ROFL!!   However, it's possible that the price of GE's will _never_ go up if everyone currently purchasing tubes has functioning ears.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!   However, it's possible that the price of GE's will _never_ go up if everyone currently purchasing tubes has functioning ears.



LOL.  Don't fret - if there can be a mass market for beats and skull candy headphones.....

And this to consider:  "Vintage" GE 6080   Our friend bangybang is trying to make the case for these fine vintage specimens of 6080 tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 18, 2020)

attmci said:


> Could you please share some details in comparison?


Sorry, thought you were joking... they're two different tubes, total opposites of each other. 5998 seems to deliver every note equally with a robustness unrivaled by most output tubes out there, (421a, Bendix 6080.. might just best it by a tad or two..) The GEC 6AS7g... that mother of all smooth deliveries... that sweet chocolate bar .. not as detailed as the 5998 and it doesn't have to be...it's a "retro" (think vinyl) sounding of a tube as you can find, clearly a sound if its own.  That's my 2 cents . I enjoy both and rarely use em. pull them out only on special occasions.


----------



## therremans (Nov 18, 2020)

Does anyone have or heard experiences with cracked ceramic mica and how this could impact the tube? One of mine arrived this way. The seller accepts returns and is open to a partial refund. The tube is stable with power and works well.. but I can’t test it as I don’t own a tester yet.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Does anyone have or heard experiences with cracked graphite plates and how this could impact the tube? One of mine arrived this way. The seller accepts returns and is open to a partial refund. The tube is stable with power and works well.. but I can’t test it as I don’t own a tester yet.


that's the ceramic mica, up to you if you want that or not, these things are tough and were built to be used on guided missiles.


----------



## therremans (Nov 18, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> that's the ceramic mica, up to you if you want that or not, these things are tough and were built to be used on guided missiles.


Yes sorry I totally knew that, ceramic mica, brain tripped up.

What would you feel comfortable paying for that kind of tube?


----------



## JTbbb

JKDJedi said:


> Sorry, thought you were joking... they're two different tubes, total opposites of each other. 5998 seems to deliver every note equally with a robustness unrivaled by most output tubes out there, (421a, Bendix 6080.. might just best it by a tad or two..) The GEC 6AS7g... that mother of all smooth deliveries... that sweet chocolate bar .. not as detailed as the 5998 and it doesn't have to be...it's a "retro" (think vinyl) sounding of a tube as you can find, clearly a sound if its own.  That's my 2 cents . I enjoy both and rarely use em. pull them out only on special occasions.



I’m with you on the 5998’s, I have a variety of well regarded power tubes, but I’m always drawn back to the 5998’s. I’m expecting some gec kt66’s to arrive tomorrow, so maybe they might get knocked off my top spot!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Sorry, thought you were joking... they're two different tubes, total opposites of each other. 5998 seems to deliver every note equally with a robustness unrivaled by most output tubes out there, (421a, Bendix 6080.. might just best it by a tad or two..) The GEC 6AS7g... that mother of all smooth deliveries... that sweet chocolate bar .. not as detailed as the 5998 and it doesn't have to be...it's a "retro" (think vinyl) sounding of a tube as you can find, clearly a sound if its own.  That's my 2 cents . I enjoy both and rarely use em. pull them out only on special occasions.


Are you saying that you rarely play the 5998?  Or the GEC 6AS7G?  Or both?

Am I making a terrible mistake using a 5998 as a daily driver...? (inserts newly purchased Tung-Sol 6080)


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 18, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Are you saying that you rarely play the 5998?  Or the GEC 6AS7G?  Or both?
> 
> Am I making a terrible mistake using a 5998 as a daily driver...? (inserts newly purchased Tung-Sol 6080)


No not at all... I'm just anal like that, I have shoes I only wear during the holidays and mounting bike tires I only use for them epic rides... anything "special" I tend to want to hang on too as long as possible... one day I'll just let my hair down and just live life to it's fullest on a daily basis...  🙂


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Yes sorry I totally knew that, ceramic mica, brain tripped up.
> 
> What would you feel comfortable paying for that kind of tube?


Offer half the asking price or send it back.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> No not at all... I'm just anal like that, I have shoes I only wear during the holidays and mounting bike tires I only use for them epic rides... anything "special" I tend to want to hang on too as long as possible... one day I'll just let my hair down and just live life to it's fullest on a daily basis...  🙂


Ahh...I see. Sometimes I feel guilty about using the Incubus as my everyday amp and have decided to make some refurbs to my BHC to use it for the constant on/off rolling activities i engage in way too often.  That way, the Incubus could just be the 'serious listening' amp.  So yes, I get it.

Also, I swap my MTB tires for different rides, too. I just put on some Maxxis Assegai 29x2.5s for my first enduro.  It took 2nd in Expert in full lycra a roadie helmet.  I got a lot of funny looks on the trail but I felt great redemption on the podium.

Back to tubes...what do you like to use for a power tube when you aren't breaking out the GEC or TS 5998?


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 18, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Ahh...I see. Sometimes I feel guilty about using the Incubus as my everyday amp and have decided to make some refurbs to my BHC to use it for the constant on/off rolling activities i engage in way too often.  That way, the Incubus could just be the 'serious listening' amp.  So yes, I get it.
> 
> Also, I swap my MTB tires for different rides, too. I just put on some Maxxis Assegai 29x2.5s for my first enduro.  It took 2nd in Expert in full lycra a roadie helmet.  I got a lot of funny looks on the trail but I felt great redemption on the podium.
> 
> Back to tubes...what do you like to use for a power tube when you aren't breaking out the GEC or TS 5998?


no....not the lycra...lol! 6080, 7236, and 6as7.. this month is 6080..
edit: since it's National Chatham 6As7G week .. why not ...


----------



## Slade01

I just came into this tube.  It is allegedly a Mullard 6080 according to whom I got this from.  I'm rather of the opinion that this is a GEC 6080.  Can anyone who is more of a British Valve expert chime in with thoughts?  (and help with date codes)?  Really appreciate it.  Thank you in advance...


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Does anyone have or heard experiences with cracked ceramic mica and how this could impact the tube? One of mine arrived this way. The seller accepts returns and is open to a partial refund. The tube is stable with power and works well.. but I can’t test it as I don’t own a tester yet.



I've never seen one like that myself.  From the 2 different sides shown in your photos, it appears the mica is cracked all the way across? The entire upper structure of that particular tube is supported vertically by that mica via the posts fastened to the bottom of it (as opposed to some other tubes where the micas are primarily used for horizontal bracing to keep the structure from leaning over into the glass). As heavy as the graphite plates are in the Bendix, it's just a recipe for imminent disaster in my opinion...and only my_ *opinion*_.  The spacing of the plates relative to the grid and cathode are (obviously) critical, and even a slight misalignment will cause issues.  I'd be very surprised if that tube doesn't measure with quite high interelement leakage, even though it's not a dead short currently.  If you can get your money back, that's what I'd do.


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> I just came into this tube.  It is allegedly a Mullard 6080 according to whom I got this from.  I'm rather of the opinion that this is a GEC 6080.  Can anyone who is more of a British Valve expert chime in with thoughts?  (and help with date codes)?  Really appreciate it.  Thank you in advance...



You may be right, although I'm not an expert on these by any means.  Langrex has an ad up for one that looks to be identical, and I've found him to be knowledgeable and honest with his descriptions over the years.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-CV298...435393?hash=item3fe75aecc1:g:~2cAAOSwqNVfPQJM


----------



## gibosi

Slade01 said:


> I just came into this tube.  It is allegedly a Mullard 6080 according to whom I got this from.  I'm rather of the opinion that this is a GEC 6080.  Can anyone who is more of a British Valve expert chime in with thoughts?  (and help with date codes)?  Really appreciate it.  Thank you in advance...


 
Yes, your hunch is correct. These are GEC 6080 / CV2984. The letter "Z" indicates GEC's factory in Hammersmith. The two-letter date code indicates the year and month. So "AA" would be 1945 / January. The letters "i" and "o" were not used.

Very quickly, I believe that "R" is 1960 and "K" and "L" are October and November. But I will leave it to you to double check my calculation. 

https://mullard.org/blogs/news/83886851-cv-numbers-and-uk-military-date-and-factory-codes


----------



## Bonddam

Is TS 7236 soft sound compared to TS 5998?


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> You may be right, although I'm not an expert on these by any means.  Langrex has an ad up for one that looks to be identical, and I've found him to be knowledgeable and honest with his descriptions over the years.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080-CV298...435393?hash=item3fe75aecc1:g:~2cAAOSwqNVfPQJM



Holy Jesus Christmas, why such the price disparity between a GEC 6080 and the Mullard? I can't imagine the sound difference between the two would be that wide.   Did the mullards garner the reputation of being something of a poor man's GEC?  (not that the prices of Mullards are cheap either, but can get almost 2 Mullard Pair from Langrex......)  Wow.


----------



## Slade01

gibosi said:


> Yes, your hunch is correct. These are GEC 6080 / CV2984. The letter "Z" indicates GEC's factory in Hammersmith. The two-letter date code indicates the year and month. So "AA" would be 1945 / January. The letters "i" and "o" were not used.
> 
> Very quickly, I believe that "R" is 1960 and "K" and "L" are October and November. But I will leave it to you to double check my calculation.
> 
> https://mullard.org/blogs/news/83886851-cv-numbers-and-uk-military-date-and-factory-codes



Thank you so much and for the link to decoding the symbols/letter codes. That is immensely helpful where the codes help clarify the factory origin.  Awesome stuff!


----------



## LoryWiv

JTbbb said:


> I’m with you on the 5998’s, I have a variety of well regarded power tubes, but I’m always drawn back to the 5998’s. I’m expecting some gec kt66’s to arrive tomorrow, so maybe they might get knocked off my top spot!


@JTbbb I'm looking forward to your comparative impressions, as TS 5998, GEC KT 66 (or KT88 if price not too crazy) are powers I am considering next, along with GEC 6AS7G.


----------



## JKDJedi

Bonddam said:


> Is TS 7236 soft sound compared to TS 5998?


No.. slightly faster, and a touch punchier


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Holy Jesus Christmas, why such the price disparity between a GEC 6080 and the Mullard? I can't imagine the sound difference between the two would be that wide.   Did the mullards garner the reputation of being something of a poor man's GEC?  (not that the prices of Mullards are cheap either, but can get almost 2 Mullard Pair from Langrex......)  Wow.


Military GEC tube.. I was drooling on that one for a bit..then said..NOPE..


----------



## attmci (Nov 18, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Sorry, thought you were joking... they're two different tubes, total opposites of each other. 5998 seems to deliver every note equally with a robustness unrivaled by most output tubes out there, (421a, Bendix 6080.. might just best it by a tad or two..) The GEC 6AS7g... that mother of all smooth deliveries... that sweet chocolate bar .. not as detailed as the 5998 and it doesn't have to be...it's a "retro" (think vinyl) sounding of a tube as you can find, clearly a sound if its own.  That's my 2 cents . I enjoy both and rarely use em. pull them out only on special occasions.


I mean the TS 6AS7GT vs the GEC. 

Life is short. You should leave the tube you like the most in the amp.


----------



## adeadcrab

Bonddam said:


> Is TS 7236 soft sound compared to TS 5998?


7236 is king. not soft


----------



## Bonddam

adeadcrab said:


> 7236 is king. not soft


I have both that with Bendix 6080 and was seeing which one has sparkle on the top end. Trying too determine if Feliks Euphoria is just a warm amp so not a lot of in the treble. I think the 5998 does more up top but I might not remember. Should take notes. So I’ve been listening to 7236 for a couple hours and like it. 
I have a thought in back of my head that the person sold me a overly used 7236 and that’s making question the higher frequencies seem rolled off.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Nov 19, 2020)

Slade01 said:


> Holy Jesus Christmas, why such the price disparity between a GEC 6080 and the Mullard? I can't imagine the sound difference between the two would be that wide.   Did the mullards garner the reputation of being something of a poor man's GEC?  (not that the prices of Mullards are cheap either, but can get almost 2 Mullard Pair from Langrex......)  Wow.


Nice find on the mislabelled GEC! Considering Mullard 6080 and GEC 6080 were made at different factories, one should suspect them to have different sound. To my ears there is a clearly audible difference; Mullards from the same year of production are much slower, gooier and rolled off compared to the GECs. Still a very nice sounding tube but the GEC is considered one of the best of the 6080 family. I find GEC a little lean in the upper bass and treble, but the overall tonality is very nice.

British military 6080 can also be labelled as cv5008. The easiest visual distinguisher between the two is that the top mica of Mullard can be spiked, the GEC is not


----------



## JTbbb

A couple of pics of one of my GEC 6080’s and yes the top mica isn’t spiked. Apologies for the poor photography, and the red leather again. Seems to be my signature!


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> A couple of pics of one of my GEC 6080’s and yes the top mica isn’t spiked. Apologies for the poor photography, and the red leather again. Seems to be my signature!



BangyBang uses some nice carpet for his photos.  Just sayin'.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> BangyBang uses some nice carpet for his photos.  Just sayin'.



Expect it from the guy who slings GE tubes for 250 bucks.  OR because he actually sells carpet on the side:   https://www.bangybang.com/collections/rugs-poufs


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Expect it from the guy who slings GE tubes for 250 bucks.  OR because he actually sells carpet on the side:   https://www.bangybang.com/collections/rugs-poufs



ROFL!  I had no idea he screwed people on carpet too.  Perhaps it's a complementary business venture as a means to sweep all his shady deals under the rug...


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> ROFL!  I had no idea he screwed people on carpet too.  Perhaps it's a complementary business venture as a means to sweep all his shady deals under the rug...


He needs the carpet to pull the wool over customer's eyes.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> He needs the carpet to pull the wool over customer's eyes.



LOL!  Except the rugs he's selling are probably made of burlap.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Hey everybody, I'm having a hard time finding tube boxes for a 6as7g sized tube.  Like something appropriate for a TS 5998 or a Winged C.  

Where do you guys buy boxes that size?  I've managed to get boxes that are a little too small and some that are a little too big, but I need the right size!


----------



## Ripper2860

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-boxes-generic-storing-vacuum-tubes

The SB251 box worked for me.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody, I'm having a hard time finding tube boxes for a 6as7g sized tube.  Like something appropriate for a TS 5998 or a Winged C.
> 
> Where do you guys buy boxes that size?  I've managed to get boxes that are a little too small and some that are a little too big, but I need the right size!



Boxes take up _soooooo_ much room._* *_


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Boxes take up _soooooo_ much room._* *_



That looks like a box of my rejects. I just toss them into one or two big boxes. lol 

But to be frank, finding perfect sized boxes is not all that important to me. I'm just happy if I can find a box that will work.

A few of my rectifiers.


----------



## Velozity (Nov 20, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Hey everybody, I'm having a hard time finding tube boxes for a 6as7g sized tube.  Like something appropriate for a TS 5998 or a Winged C.
> 
> Where do you guys buy boxes that size?  I've managed to get boxes that are a little too small and some that are a little too big, but I need the right size!




I bought these.  Works great.

https://www.vivatubes.com/extra-large-octal-white-tube-boxes-st-shape-kt88-6l6g-6bg6g-globe-45/


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Nov 21, 2020)

For those outside the US, aliexpress has some good bulk options for next to nothing shipping.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000197884617.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.2bd04c4dMi5b5c These are good for small/medium

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001286805406.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.2bd04c4dMi5b5c these are good value for bigger boxes; 6x6cm is a slightly large fit for 6AS7 (ideally 5.5cm), perfect with a divider. 

I ordered them and they are sturdy. If you want to add a divider inside just use an old piece of cardboard from a cereal box etc.


----------



## JTbbb

LoryWiv said:


> @JTbbb I'm looking forward to your comparative impressions, as TS 5998, GEC KT 66 (or KT88 if price not too crazy) are powers I am considering next, along with GEC 6AS7G.



Hello there, I have now tried a pair of GEC KT66’s in my amp...they sounded awful, I was so surprised! I also tried 2 pairs of GE 7581A’s with the same result! In discussion with another Headfier it seems that the newer versions of the Feliks Euforia don’t take to kindly to some tubes. I have lots of other tubes which sound wonderful with my amp including the GEC 6AS7G cv2523, which you were also considering. These tubes IMHO are certainly up there with the 5998’s.


----------



## LoryWiv

JTbbb said:


> Hello there, I have now tried a pair of GEC KT66’s in my amp...they sounded awful, I was so surprised! I also tried 2 pairs of GE 7581A’s with the same result! In discussion with another Headfier it seems that the newer versions of the Feliks Euforia don’t take to kindly to some tubes. I have lots of other tubes which sound wonderful with my amp including the GEC 6AS7G cv2523, which you were also considering. These tubes IMHO are certainly up there with the 5998’s.


Interesting and unexpected result! I  currently have GE 7581A's in my Elise and they are terrific as powers. Just reinforces the view that all of the specifics of our chains affect sonic outcome! Thanks for these impressions.


----------



## JTbbb

Just a shot in the dark here! Is there anyone out there that might be thinking of thinning the herd. The reason I ask is that the majority of my small collection of 24 tubes has come from fellow headfier’s, and you know that you are going to get a good tube. 
To compliment what I have got in powers I’m looking for a matched pair of something like WE 421A’s, GEC Curved Brown Base or even another pair of 5998’s. The latter are IMHO so good it would be nice to have a spare pair in case anything went wrong with the pair I have.
I’m not necessarily looking for NOS nor a cheap deal, I’m quite happy to pay the going rate. 
Anyway’s, if you think you have something that will interest me, give me a PM.


----------



## GDuss

JTbbb said:


> Just a shot in the dark here! Is there anyone out there that might be thinking of thinning the herd. The reason I ask is that the majority of my small collection of 24 tubes has come from fellow headfier’s, and you know that you are going to get a good tube.
> To compliment what I have got in powers I’m looking for a matched pair of something like WE 421A’s, GEC Curved Brown Base or even another pair of 5998’s. The latter are IMHO so good it would be nice to have a spare pair in case anything went wrong with the pair I have.
> I’m not necessarily looking for NOS nor a cheap deal, I’m quite happy to pay the going rate.
> Anyway’s, if you think you have something that will interest me, give me a PM.



Maybe @CaptainFantastic can jump in here.  I think he even has some in the sales forum right now.


----------



## JTbbb

GDuss said:


> Maybe @CaptainFantastic can jump in here.  I think he even has some in the sales forum right now.



Thanks for that. I have previously been in touch with CaptainFantastic, lovely nos tubes, but a little too much for my wallet.


----------



## bcowen

If anybody is looking for some graphite plate Bendix 6080's, here you go.  While the price seems high, consider that the tubes have been "short-circuited" which obviously makes them _much_ more valuable.    





https://www.ebay.com/itm/233799617031?ul_noapp=true


----------



## JTbbb

Has anyone bought tubes from Japan? Is there a seller that can be trusted? Without being able to put my finger on any one thing, it just looks a bit dodgy/Iffy to me.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 28, 2020)

bcowen said:


> If anybody is looking for some graphite plate Bendix 6080's, here you go.  While the price seems high, consider that the tubes have been "short-circuited" which obviously makes them _much_ more valuable.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/233799617031?ul_noapp=true



Thanks for the heads up.  Seller accepted an offer of $500 and they will soon be mine!








Not!  😏


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> If  is looking for some graphite plate Bendix 6080's, here you go.  While the price seems high, consider that the tubes have been "short-circuited" which obviously makes them _much_ more valuable.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/233799617031?ul_noapp=true


----------



## JKDJedi

JTbbb said:


> Has anyone bought tubes from Japan? Is there a seller that can be trusted? Without being able to put my finger on any one thing, it just looks a bit dodgy/Iffy to me.


Same feeling here,


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Has anyone bought tubes from Japan? Is there a seller that can be trusted? Without being able to put my finger on any one thing, it just looks a bit dodgy/Iffy to me.



I've never bought any tubes from a Japan-based seller that I can recall.  The prices on every listing (at least that I've seen on Ebay) are 3x - 5x the going market price.


----------



## Slade01

JTbbb said:


> Has anyone bought tubes from Japan? Is there a seller that can be trusted? Without being able to put my finger on any one thing, it just looks a bit dodgy/Iffy to me.



There is a series of tung sol 5998 tubes on ebay now from Japan but I asked the seller about their testing, measurements, and they test a lot closer to the bare minimum passing mark.  Probably why they didn't put up the measurements in the description...hoping someone would just buy them without question.  So yeah, that was definitely some dodgy stuff.


----------



## therremans

I have never purchased any tubes from Japan but other things like guitars and camera lenses. In my experience, the Japanese are usually honest, very thorough with the item description and with the photography. But of course this will depend on the seller and not posting known testing values is a red flag to avoid that seller.


----------



## bcowen

Tonight's roll.  Chatham 6080WB graphite plates (non-slotted), 1944 KenRad 6C5's.  Bass slam, detail and staging with this combo is uncanny.  I have a love/hate relationship with the Chatham...once it's warmed up for 30 minutes it sounds glorious, but anything less and it's pretty edgy and raw.  And planning 30 minutes into the future is above my pay grade.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Tonight's roll.  Chatham 6080WB graphite plates (non-slotted), 1944 KenRad 6C5's.  Bass slam, detail and staging with this combo is uncanny.  I have a love/hate relationship with the Chatham...once it's warmed up for 30 minutes it sounds glorious, but anything less and it's pretty edgy and raw.  And planning 30 minutes into the future is above my pay grade.


Love me them Bendix. 😎


----------



## JTbbb

What do you guys think of these?


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> What do you guys think of these?



Look like genuine Tung Sols to me. A little pricey though with no return privileges...


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> Look like genuine Tung Sols to me. A little pricey though with no return privileges...



Yes it’s the no return policy that is putting me off. The Japanese sellers have no return privileges either.


----------



## JKDJedi

JTbbb said:


> What do you guys think of these?


Appear to be in (just out of the factory) MINT condition.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Appear to be in (just out of the factory) MINT condition.



LOL!  That's one slow factory production pace seeing they started on them 50+ years ago.  Maybe this is _really_ why the US is losing manufacturing jobs...


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Look like genuine Tung Sols to me. A little pricey though with no return privileges...


I don't see the price. So I search the 5998 and found Mr. Cowen is selling:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CATHERINE-...418963?hash=item4b870e7593:g:CIAAAOSwOghfvTkc


JK


----------



## attmci

Clear-top 5998:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-sol-T...076100?hash=item595d0ac484:g:ML4AAOSw-vdfsaLI

So expensive.


----------



## attmci (Nov 29, 2020)

There are a lot of 5998 tubes on sale from Japan. If you can combine shipping, negotiate the price, it could be a nice deal.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 29, 2020)

attmci said:


> I don't see the price. So I search the 5998 and found Mr. Cowen is selling:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CATHERINE-...418963?hash=item4b870e7593:g:CIAAAOSwOghfvTkc
> 
> ...



Ebay is fast!  I took that picture just before she left a few minutes ago...


----------



## bcowen

Typical BangyBang. Perhaps someone will sue him when the 5 amp heater current draw of a 6336A causes smoke to pour out of their amp designed for the 2.5 amp draw of a 6080.  One can only hope.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-AMAZING-...4f1e845287f4e177a1b5|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2334524


----------



## GDuss

attmci said:


> I don't see the price. So I search the 5998 and found Mr. Cowen is selling:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CATHERINE-...418963?hash=item4b870e7593:g:CIAAAOSwOghfvTkc
> 
> ...



I actually thought there were going to be some tubes in that listing, like greengirl does:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pa...196512?hash=item5dbbd41360:g:bhQAAOSwf4pfTZ-a

But then there were no tubes


----------



## bcowen

GDuss said:


> I actually thought there were going to be some tubes in that listing, like greengirl does:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pa...196512?hash=item5dbbd41360:g:bhQAAOSwf4pfTZ-a
> 
> But then there were no tubes



LOL!  There are very few things with a higher priority than tubes, but this is one of them.


----------



## kkrazik2008 (Nov 29, 2020)

I have to say thank you for this thread, a few months ago when I began my tube rolling adventure I was tempted to buy some of these farce listings on eBay. Luckily my rationale side intervened and I was able to read up on some of the sketchy eBay profiles, the downside is I am less inclined to buy tubes off eBay.

EDIT: Thanks to @Slade01 for helping a novice out and selling me a set of great tubes to start me out.


----------



## bcowen

kkrazik2008 said:


> I have to say thank you for this thread, a few months ago when I began my tube rolling adventure I was tempted to buy some of these farce listings on eBay. Luckily my rationale side intervened and I was able to read up on some of the sketchy eBay profiles, the downside is I am less inclined to buy tubes off eBay.
> 
> EDIT: Thanks to @Slade01 for helping a novice out and selling me a set of great tubes to start me out.



@Slade01 , what kind of hoarder collector do you purport to be?  Tubes can check in any time they like but they can never leave.    

Seriously, very nice of you to help out another HeadFi'er...that's what helps make this a great place.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> @Slade01 , what kind of hoarder collector do you purport to be?  Tubes can check in any time they like but they can never leave.
> 
> Seriously, very nice of you to help out another HeadFi'er...that's what helps make this a great place.



Well @bcowen now i was mainly a convert @7N7 Frankie hoarder collector until now having entered deeper into the rabbit hole of 6J5s (thanks @JKDJedi for ruining my bank account).  LOL.

@kkrazik2008 you're very welcome.  i'm happy to help as best I can like the rest of the good folks here on this forum who have helped me on my journey.


----------



## shafat777

can someone plz plz plz help me find some power tubes for my Feliks Audio elise? It uses 6as7g, 6080, 5998, 6H13s and equivalent tubes. The amp came with stock russian 6h13s power tubes (not sure if those are Winged C Svetlana). I also purchased a pair of Black plate RCA 6as7g but the bass with those are kinda bloated and muddy. Any help would be appreciated. I am so lost with these tubes, even thought this is not my first time tube rolling. Ive previously rolled 6922 tubes for my LP and EL84 tubes for my hagerman tuba amp. 

Thank you for your time and wisdom.


----------



## bcowen

shafat777 said:


> can someone plz plz plz help me find some power tubes for my Feliks Audio elise? It uses 6as7g, 6080, 5998, 6H13s and equivalent tubes. The amp came with stock russian 6h13s power tubes (not sure if those are Winged C Svetlana). I also purchased a pair of Black plate RCA 6as7g but the bass with those are kinda bloated and muddy. Any help would be appreciated. I am so lost with these tubes, even thought this is not my first time tube rolling. Ive previously rolled 6922 tubes for my LP and EL84 tubes for my hagerman tuba amp.
> 
> Thank you for your time and wisdom.



If you want to go straight to the head of the class:

Tung Sol 5998 (can be labeled differently, such as IBM). Must have domino plates.
Western Electric 421A
Chatham or Bendix graphite plate 6080WB

One I personally like a lot is the Chatham 6AS7G.  While not quite to the level of those above, they can often be found for less money. Big upgrade over the RCA 6AS7, especially in the bass. Another one to consider is a 7236...you'll find them with Cetron, Tung Sol, and Sylvania branding (at minimum). More linear and less tube-y sounding than the standard fare, but can sing with a warmer-balanced driver tube. 

And those Russians you have?  Don't discount them right off the bat. They need a good bit of time to fully break in (25+ hours of play time), but are not bad tubes at all. In fact I personally prefer them to the RCA's.


----------



## Ripper2860

GDuss said:


> I actually thought there were going to be some tubes in that listing, like greengirl does:
> 
> But then there were no tubes



Is that a tube in your pocket or are you just happy you clicked on that link?


----------



## Slade01

shafat777 said:


> can someone plz plz plz help me find some power tubes for my Feliks Audio elise? It uses 6as7g, 6080, 5998, 6H13s and equivalent tubes. The amp came with stock russian 6h13s power tubes (not sure if those are Winged C Svetlana). I also purchased a pair of Black plate RCA 6as7g but the bass with those are kinda bloated and muddy. Any help would be appreciated. I am so lost with these tubes, even thought this is not my first time tube rolling. Ive previously rolled 6922 tubes for my LP and EL84 tubes for my hagerman tuba amp.
> 
> Thank you for your time and wisdom.



What kind of drivers are you running with your Elise?


----------



## shafat777

@bcowen 

I have heard nothing about great things about those tube you mentioned. However, they are extremely rare and even harder to find. Thats why I keep looking for alternatives. If i had $500 to spend on a pair of tubes, trust me, i would. However, unfortunately thats not the case and there seems to be very few of those out in the wild. 

@Slade01 

I am running PSvane Gold 181 Mk2 tubes as my main drivers. I also have a pair of Sylvania 46' VT-231 coming in the mail as well.


----------



## Slade01

shafat777 said:


> @bcowen
> 
> I have heard nothing about great things about those tube you mentioned. However, they are extremely rare and even harder to find. Thats why I keep looking for alternatives. If i had $500 to spend on a pair of tubes, trust me, i would. However, unfortunately thats not the case and there seems to be very few of those out in the wild.
> 
> ...



You actually might like your current Russian winged Cs with the vt-231 they might provide alot  more balance versus you current with the psvanes.  By contrast, your psvanes might benefit more from a slightly darker richer tube in the 6080.  Maybe if you can find a pair of mullard 6080 or original sylvania 6080s would be something I would try -- especially if you find the psvanes/svetlana combo too bright?  I guess let us know how your current setup sounds to you...what you're hoping to fix?


----------



## shafat777

Slade01 said:


> You actually might like your current Russian winged Cs with the vt-231 they might provide alot  more balance versus you current with the psvanes.  By contrast, your psvanes might benefit more from a slightly darker richer tube in the 6080.  Maybe if you can find a pair of mullard 6080 or original sylvania 6080s would be something I would try -- especially if you find the psvanes/svetlana combo too bright?  I guess let us know how your current setup sounds to you...what you're hoping to fix?


 I ll be on the lookout for some 6080 tubes. Thanks a lot bud.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 29, 2020)

shafat777 said:


> I ll be on the lookout for some 6080 tubes. Thanks a lot bud.



The Tung Sol 6080 is quite nice too, as long as you get the right version.  The one on the right side below is the one to get -- note the additional metal mica supports and the silver edge at the top and bottom edges of the plates. The RCA and the other Tung Sol are identical internally, so quite likely that one made the tube for the other.

Left to right: 1) RCA 6080, 2) Tung Sol 6080 (same as RCA), 3) preferred Tung Sol 6080:


----------



## Slade01 (Nov 29, 2020)

bcowen said:


> The Tung Sol 6080 is quite nice too, as long as you get the right version.  The one on the right side below is the one to get -- note the additional metal mica supports and the silver edge at the top and bottom edges of the plates. The RCA and the other Tung Sol are identical internally, so quite likely that one made the tube for the other.
> 
> Left to right: 1) RCA 6080, 2) same-as-RCA Tung Sol 6080, 3) preferred Tung Sol 6080:




Thanks @bcowen.  I was just writing a post to say just the very same thing.  Look out for the Tung-Sol 6080 with the additional mica supports.  These are the real deal.  If possible @shafat777 , you should consider this your top target in this tier.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

shafat777 said:


> @bcowen
> 
> I have heard nothing about great things about those tube you mentioned. However, they are extremely rare and even harder to find. Thats why I keep looking for alternatives. If i had $500 to spend on a pair of tubes, trust me, i would. However, unfortunately thats not the case and there seems to be very few of those out in the wild.
> 
> ...


If you can swing it I would recommend springing for 5998 power tubes and call it a day!  Alternatively, I am a fan of the mullard 6080 if you wanted to save some coin, but it'd a far cry from a proper 5998.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> The Tung Sol 6080 is quite nice too, as long as you get the right version.  The one on the right side below is the one to get -- note the additional metal mica supports and the silver edge at the top and bottom edges of the plates. The RCA and the other Tung Sol are identical internally, so quite likely that one made the tube for the other.
> 
> Left to right: 1) RCA 6080, 2) Tung Sol 6080 (same as RCA), 3) preferred Tung Sol 6080:


I just got a few of these 'preferred' 6080 tubes super cheap from eBay so look for deals.  I sold a couple to some folks on the forum or I would hook you up!  I only have one left 

Btw, cheap was about $20 usd per tube.


----------



## gibosi

shafat777 said:


> @bcowen
> 
> I have heard nothing about great things about those tube you mentioned. However, they are extremely rare and even harder to find. Thats why I keep looking for alternatives. If i had $500 to spend on a pair of tubes, trust me, i would. However, unfortunately thats not the case and there seems to be very few of those out in the wild.
> 
> ...



On eBay "save searches" for the tubes you want. And then you just have to be patient. In my experience, eventually most popup at a price I am willing to pay. That said, in some cases I have waited more than a year. And in some other cases I am still waiting. lol


----------



## shafat777

PsilocybinCube said:


> I just got a few of these 'preferred' 6080 tubes super cheap from eBay so look for deals.  I sold a couple to some folks on the forum or I would hook you up!  I only have one left
> 
> Btw, cheap was about $20 usd per tube.


all good brother. just bought these 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Good-Pair-...333454?hash=item23e70e5c8e:g:bm4AAOSwLKxftL5O 

Let me know what u think


----------



## JKDJedi

shafat777 said:


> all good brother. just bought these
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Good-Pair-...333454?hash=item23e70e5c8e:g:bm4AAOSwLKxftL5O
> 
> Let me know what u think


good buy


----------



## raindownthunda

shafat777 said:


> all good brother. just bought these
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Good-Pair-...333454?hash=item23e70e5c8e:g:bm4AAOSwLKxftL5O
> 
> Let me know what u think


Very nice! I was looking at those too. I have a pair just like that and they are among my favorite power tubes. I think you’ll be delighted - just make sure to give them plenty of time (20-30 min) to warm up.


----------



## therremans (Nov 29, 2020)

shafat777 said:


> all good brother. just bought these
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Good-Pair-...333454?hash=item23e70e5c8e:g:bm4AAOSwLKxftL5O
> 
> Let me know what u think


Great choice, mine is branded by Chatham from 1961 and is my first choice when picking a power tube. It has a much better bottom end than my 5998 and has a more full range of sound like a Mullard. I only use the 5998 now for certain combos where it needs the high end.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> On eBay "save searches" for the tubes you want. And then you just have to be patient. In my experience, eventually most popup at a price I am willing to pay. That said, in some cases I have waited more than a year. And in some other cases I am still waiting. lol







Edge 1:  What you said.
Edge 2:  This:


----------



## gibosi

A mid-1950's Russian ensemble:

Melz 1578 (1958), a pair of Svetlana 6N5S (one 1953 and one 1955, both with shields below the bottom mica spacer) and Svetlana 5C3S (1957). And it sounds good! In my experience, Svetlana production tends to be somewhat dark and the Melz adds some air and treble. Quite nice. 

(As above, I have been waiting a long time for a mid-1950's Foton 5C3S to  popup.....  no luck so far....)


----------



## JKDJedi (Nov 30, 2020)

*Cunningham 6AS7G (49')*.


*The Cunningham Connection*​
Elmer Cunningham had been a successful West Coast manufacturer and seller of tubes since 1915. His tubular AudioTron was one of the most widely used U.S. tubes between 1915 and 1920. "[When] the Radio Corporation of America was formed in October 1919, they promptly initiated litigation for patent infringements, instituting suit against Cunningham in the U.S. District Court for the District of Northern California, charging infringement on the Fleming and deForest patents. Cunningham thought he had a good bargaining position, as he had a personal license to make tubes from Lee deForest. Elmer went to RCA in New York to present his case, but was told, while Mr deForest did indeed have a personal licence, he had signed all of his other rights to AT&T and had no right to grant Cunningham his license. Elmer returned to California, where Lee deForest agreed to arrange it so Cunningham would be making tubes with deForest under the deForest license. RCA decided it was better to have Elmer Cunningham as an ally than a competitor. So, the case was settled out-of-court by two agreements signed the same day (June 15, 1920)."

The first agreement gave Cunningham a license to manufacture 5000 tubes over a period of 90 days. The second agreement provided that, when the 90-day license had expired, Cunningham's company would cease to make vacuum tubes. "RCA agreed to supply Cunningham with tubes until the expiration date of the deForest patent No. 879,532 on February 18, 1925. The tubes were to be of Cunningham's choice, selected from samples submitted by RCA, and supplied in cartons ready for delivery. Both the tubes and cartons were to bear names and marks designated by Cunningham. There was to be no indication of the name of the manufacturer or RCA. These tubes were to be sold to Cunningham at a discount of 20% below the lowest net price quoted to any other customer." At the very least RCA got an instant West Coast distribution network out of the deal.

https://vacuumtubesinc.com/cunninghampage


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> *Cunningham 6AS7G (49')*.
> 
> 
> *The Cunningham Connection*​
> ...


The RCA with a bottom getter is underrated. I'm not interested in purchasing any more with a top getter, but a bottom (or double bottom) getter version is worthwhile.  I'd really like to try them driving speakers.  They are fairly punchy with their bass.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Is this just a Chatham 6as7g rebranded?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TWO-VERY-R...580182?hash=item2f4f850396:g:RHUAAOSwTe5fTGUz


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Is this just a Chatham 6as7g rebranded?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TWO-VERY-R...580182?hash=item2f4f850396:g:RHUAAOSwTe5fTGUz



To my eyes, yes.


----------



## Velozity (Dec 1, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Is this just a Chatham 6as7g rebranded?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TWO-VERY-R...580182?hash=item2f4f850396:g:RHUAAOSwTe5fTGUz




Yes, and judging by recent sales that's a deal, lol.


On the RCA, I'm curious what sonic differences you hear between bottom getter vs. top getter?


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 1, 2020)

Velozity said:


> Yes, and judging by recent sales that's a deal, lol.
> 
> 
> On the RCA, I'm curious what sonic differences you hear between RCA bottom getter vs. top getter?


I wasn't a huge fan of the RCA compared to my other output tubes and sold all of them, (all top getter tubes, three in total) ,much later got interested in the bottom getter variation of the RCA tube.  loved it on initial listen. They seem more rounded and not as zestless as the top getter versions.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 1, 2020)

wrong thread... 😝


----------



## attmci




----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


>



Are there tubes in these boxes? Or are they empty?


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> Are there tubes in these boxes? Or are they empty?


Yes, there are some rare tubes in these boxes.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> Yes, there are some rare tubes in these boxes.



So why don't you show them to us?


----------



## gibosi

These old 6N5S continue to surprise me. This evening, I'm really enjoying a roll with a Cossor 53KU rectifier and a GEC BL63 / VR102 driver. And the bluish fluorescence on the right 6N5S is pretty neat (and apparently harmless).


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> So why don't you show them to us?


More boxes?


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> These old 6N5S continue to surprise me. This evening, I'm really enjoying a roll with a Cossor 53KU rectifier and a GEC BL63 / VR102 driver. And the bluish fluorescence on the right 6N5S is pretty neat (and apparently harmless).


Cool glow there.. and it's constant like that?


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 2, 2020)

attmci said:


> More boxes?


Show us the Chatham GEC 6as7g tubes you got 😁


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Cool glow there.. and it's constant like that?



Yes, it seems to be constant. I don't notice any movement or change. It's pretty neat.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Yes, it seems to be constant. I don't notice any movement or change. It's pretty neat.



 I _love_ that blue glow. Lots of 300B's do it, but I've yet to see it in any of my 6AS7 family tubes. I must be shopping at the wrong store.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


>


----------



## maxpudding (Dec 2, 2020)

bcowen said:


>



I thought these were the GE 5998, what a rare find!


----------



## JTbbb

JKDJedi said:


> Show us the Chatham GEC 6as7g tubes you got 😁



I’ll show you mine, if you’ll show me yours 😁


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> I thought these were the GE 5998, what a rare find!



GE, GEC....what difference can one little letter possibly make?


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> GE, GEC....what difference can one little letter possibly make?



A LOT 😂


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> GE, GEC....what difference can one little letter possibly make?



Do you know how many freaking ebay sellers try to sell GE as GEC tubes?


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> I _love_ that blue glow. Lots of 300B's do it, but I've yet to see it in any of my 6AS7 family tubes. I must be shopping at the wrong store.



Like you, I have never seen this blue glow on a 6AS7G type tube before. These old 6N5S are pretty neat.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Like you, I have never seen this blue glow on a 6AS7G type tube before. These old 6N5S are pretty neat.


Have me searching for blue glowing tubes now  what year is that tube? Winged C SED?


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Have me searching for blue glowing tubes now  what year is that tube? Winged C SED?



Mine are dated 1953 and 1955, and 1955 is the one with the blue glow. And I should note that this blue glow seems to be more pronounced in pictures than in "real life". lol


----------



## gibosi

Now just joking, but if you want blue, you could try to roll in a pair of #27's as drivers. These were manufactured in 1930, a little old, but sound great. This tube is my avatar.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


>


Fake fake fake. 
Fake fake fake. *Fake fake fake. 
Fake fake fake. Fake fake fake. Fake fake fake. Fake fake fake. *


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Show us the Chatham GEC 6as7g tubes you got 😁


Last batch of the box sold to Mr. Cowen. Now he can fake it by himself.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Fake fake fake.
> Fake fake fake. *Fake fake fake.
> Fake fake fake. Fake fake fake. Fake fake fake. Fake fake fake. *



Which part?  That GEC never made a 5998?  Or that my boxes are as empty as yours?


----------



## maxpudding

A quad of 5998 just showed up on eBay if anyone interested to buy


----------



## therremans

maxpudding said:


> A quad of 5998 just showed up on eBay if anyone interested to buy


For $1,000? 🤣


----------



## maxpudding

therremans said:


> For $1,000? 🤣



Yeah 😂 going by this rate all the fan favorites are going to be very expensive in the next couple of years, at least for NOS tubes

better stock up on russian tubes as well 😂


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> better stock up on russian tubes as well 😂



OK.  

LOL!

Snagged one of these '59's.  $22 is a bit more than I'd normally spend on a Russkie like this, but with the free shipping it works out.  Coming from China, so it'll be a bit before it shows up. Has the OTK stamp on it, but no guarantee there's a blue glow.  Seller has 3 left if anyone wants to share in possible joy....or commiserate in disappointment.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-6H5C-e...322724?hash=item3b155a7ee4:g:5z8AAOSwFytc2qn4


----------



## bcowen

If any of you have an amp that can handle a 6336, this is one hell of a deal.  Note that while the 6336 is pin compatible and has other similarities with a 6AS7 or 6080, it pulls almost *twice* the heater current, so unless you know your 6AS7/6080 amp can handle it, DO NOT just stick this tube in or you might end up with a fried transformer.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ch...5&algv=default&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> If any of you have an amp that can handle a 6336, this is one hell of a deal.  Note that while the 6336 is pin compatible and has other similarities with a 6AS7 or 6080, it pulls almost *twice* the heater current, so unless you know your 6AS7/6080 amp can handle it, DO NOT just stick this tube in or you might end up with a fried transformer.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Chatham-6336-Electron-Vacuum-Tube-In-Original-Box-Untested/293866625538?_trkparms=aid=1110009&algo=SPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=20200220094952&meid=dd08b0e8ca5748568d7f6026ee8903d0&pid=100008&rk=7&rkt=12&sd=273760308267&itm=293866625538&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=default&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219



I suspect that the reason it is selling this cheap is that the 6336 has metal plates whereas the 6336A and 6336B have graphite plates. Some users have experienced arching issues with the metal 6336, so IMHO, the later 6336A and 6336B are the ones to get. Also, Raytheon made this tube, but in my opinion, the Chatham / Tung-Sol / Cetron are better.

But as @bcown notes, this tube draws 5 amps of heater current. And if you run a pair, you are looking at 10 amps! Make very sure your amp can handle this as otherwise, your amp may fail catastrophically.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> OK.
> 
> LOL!
> 
> ...



It is always a riskier gamble with these russian/chinese tubes 😅


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> OK.
> 
> LOL!
> 
> ...



It is my understanding that the OTK stamp doesn't mean all that much. That is, it only means that some percentage of a batch of tubes was randomly selected, tested, and no deviation from acceptable specifications was found.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> It is my understanding that the OTK stamp doesn't mean all that much. That is, it only means that some percentage of a batch of tubes was randomly selected, tested, and no deviation from acceptable specifications was found.



I thought the OTK was a military approval stamp, similar to the JAN designation on US-made tubes.  No?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> I thought the OTK was a military approval stamp, similar to the JAN designation on US-made tubes.  No?


My understanding is that the OTK or the 54 in a rhombus is an indication of military approval.  Calling on @Paladin79 for the official word on this...


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> I thought the OTK was a military approval stamp, similar to the JAN designation on US-made tubes.  No?



From a man who used to work in a Soviet factory:

~~~~~~~~~
I often read discussions about made in USSR components, like tubes, capacitors, resistors, etc. Some people believe that OTK stamp means the highest quality. No, it is not! It means, the batch of the stuff was accepted by QA. Usually that means that some percentage of devices was randomly selected, tested, and no deviation from the technology that caused unacceptable measurement, was found.

And the number means the personal number assigned to the person who tested the party, who bears responsibility. During my internship at Karl Marx plant in Omsk town, where Saturn tape recorders were manufactured, I had my own number 59 for the duration of the internship. I had a rubber stamp for the device passport, and a metal one, with the number in the diamond, to seal bolts.

Some devices were manufactured for "Requestors". Army, Navy, MVD, KGB, etc. Plants that manufactured such production had "Representatives of Requestors" who bared responsibility for the quality. They as well had own personal numbers. They did not test personally, but they could demand testing or stop production if it did not satisfy TU (Technical Conditions)

What matters more, "Acceptance Levels". I know about 3 levels. And they were strictly defined. Each and every device was selected from the batch.

Acceptance "5" means products of the "VP" quality category, for which the level of requirements for reliability and other operational properties, as well as for quality assurance and control, established in the design and technological documentation, standards and technical specifications, determines the suitability of their use in land, sea and aviation equipment, the failure of which leads to significant consequences, the repair and replacement of which is carried out at the level of cells and blocks.

Acceptance "7" means products of the quality category "OSM" - products of the quality category "OS", supplied in small batches and having the features of ensuring and controlling their quality specified in the technological documentation, standards and technical specifications for products.

Acceptance "9" means products of the "OS" quality category, for which the level of requirements for reliability and other operational properties, as well as for quality assurance and control, established in the design and technological documentation, standards and technical specifications, determines the suitability of their application in space and rocket equipment , special government communications, etc., the failure of which leads to catastrophic consequences, the repair and replacement of which are difficult to access or not possible.

~~~~~~~

Personally, I have yet to see anything printed on a tube that looks like Acceptance 5, 7 or 9....


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> From a man who used to work in a Soviet factory:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~
> I often read discussions about made in USSR components, like tubes, capacitors, resistors, etc. Some people believe that OTK stamp means the highest quality. No, it is not! It means, the batch of the stuff was accepted by QA. Usually that means that some percentage of devices was randomly selected, tested, and no deviation from the technology that caused unacceptable measurement, was found.
> ...



I've only seen the number 54 on the USSR tubes I have.  That may be pure coincidence though.  I have about 6 Russian power tubes.  Some are 6h5c and some are 6h13c.  This is a 6h13c with the 54.  I suppose that means I have some cosmic connection with a tube tester that operated as Mr. (or Ms.) #54.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 3, 2020)

gibosi said:


> From a man who used to work in a Soviet factory:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~
> I often read discussions about made in USSR components, like tubes, capacitors, resistors, etc. Some people believe that OTK stamp means the highest quality. No, it is not! It means, the batch of the stuff was accepted by QA. Usually that means that some percentage of devices was randomly selected, tested, and no deviation from the technology that caused unacceptable measurement, was found.
> ...



Interesting stuff.  Thanks!!

The only Russian power tubes I have are Amperex-branded "Made in England" (LOL!) and subsequently have all the Russian markings removed.  Looking through a few Fotons and Melz 6N8S's, I found a couple 7's, but don't know if the Acceptance level is what these markings relate to.  They all have a 2-digit numbers as well, which I assume is the inspector's identification.  Interesting with the Foton (right) that the '7' is in the same marking block as the OTK.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Which part?  That GEC never made a 5998?  Or that my boxes are as empty as yours?


You cou


bcowen said:


> Which part?  That GEC never made a 5998?  Or that my boxes are as empty as yours?


Your boxes are counterfeit.


----------



## JTbbb

You can’t beat the glow of tubes when it looks like this out your living room window 😀.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> My understanding is that the OTK or the 54 in a rhombus is an indication of military approval.  Calling on @Paladin79 for the official word on this...


The answer below was much better than I could have come up with.    Most Russians I know are fairly young and they go by what they hear and their info can be good or bad.


----------



## attmci




----------



## therremans




----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


>


    (Love it!)


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>



ROFL!


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> ROFL!


Looks real. Congratulations!


----------



## maxpudding

*people who just started tube rolling be like: confused_meme.gif


----------



## JKDJedi

maxpudding said:


> *people who just started tube rolling be like: confused_meme.gif


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> *people who just started tube rolling be like: confused_meme.gif



And some of us that have been rolling for years too.


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## maxpudding

😂😂


----------



## shafat777 (Dec 5, 2020)

just intalled a pair of 6080wb tung-sol graphite power tubes in my Elise. How ever, now im heariung a very low metal clicking sound coming from both channels of my headphone when no music is playing. Is this normal? I didnt hear anything from my Svetlana power tubes. Should i be worried? 

I am running these power tubes with a pair of Sylvania Vt-231 driver tubes. Any comment or info would be helpful.


----------



## Dogmatrix

shafat777 said:


> just intalled a pair of 6080wb tung-sol graphite power tubes in my Elise. How ever, now im heariung a very low metal clicking sound coming from both channels of my headphone when no music is playing. Is this normal? I didnt hear anything from my Svetlana power tubes. Should i be worried?
> 
> I am running these power tubes with a pair of Sylvania Vt-231 driver tubes. Any comment or info would be helpful.


Could be warm up , graphite tubes need up to an hour to fully stabilise .


----------



## shafat777

Dogmatrix said:


> Could be warm up , graphite tubes need up to an hour to fully stabilise .


Snap !!! Does that mean i have to wait up to an hour every time?


----------



## JKDJedi

shafat777 said:


> Snap !!! Does that mean i have to wait up to an hour every time?


you should be good after 20 minutes, I turn these guys on before making that pot of coffee sometimes, they're a special tube so don't mind the minor inconvenience for the pleasure of ownership.


----------



## shafat777

Yupp 

I agree that they sound excellent. Low end extension is unlike anything ive ever heard. Very punchy and controlled. Gonna do some extensive comparison betwwen these and my old faithful svetlanas as those are still stuck in my heard. I definitely need to get used to these as i m not a bass head at all.


----------



## adeadcrab

shafat777 said:


> just intalled a pair of 6080wb tung-sol graphite power tubes in my Elise. How ever, now im heariung a very low metal clicking sound coming from both channels of my headphone when no music is playing. Is this normal? I didnt hear anything from my Svetlana power tubes. Should i be worried?
> 
> I am running these power tubes with a pair of Sylvania Vt-231 driver tubes. Any comment or info would be helpful.



bendix 6080WB are very durable long-lasting tubes, I believe they were designed for military applications - the glass envelope is very sturdy and thick, so it actually expands when warming up. The clinking sound is the glass slightly expanding, if I'm not mistaken. It takes about an hour for that process to finish.


----------



## shafat777

adeadcrab said:


> bendix 6080WB are very durable long-lasting tubes, I believe they were designed for military applications - the glass envelope is very sturdy and thick, so it actually expands when warming up. The clinking sound is the glass slightly expanding, if I'm not mistaken. It takes about an hour for that process to finish.


Idk if mine are bendix. It says tung-sol on the base. Never the less, i m glad these are long lasting since they are hard to find. Im gonna be conservative when using these. Might switch it up with another set or my Svetlanas from time to time.


----------



## adeadcrab

shafat777 said:


> Idk if mine are bendix. It says tung-sol on the base. Never the less, i m glad these are long lasting since they are hard to find. Im gonna be conservative when using these. Might switch it up with another set or my Svetlanas from time to time.


Mine also say Tung Sol (CTL or some such lettering as well) but they are just rebranded Bendix 6080WB.


----------



## shafat777

@adeadcrab
Judging from your post, i am assuming bendix are good tubes? The reason i bought these is becaause a few forum members told me that Tung-sol 6080s are excellent tubes for low end extension.


----------



## Slade01

shafat777 said:


> Idk if mine are bendix. It says tung-sol on the base. Never the less, i m glad these are long lasting since they are hard to find. Im gonna be conservative when using these. Might switch it up with another set or my Svetlanas from time to time.



Only Bendix made the graphite plates if im not mistaken.


----------



## therremans

mordy said:


> In addition to these I have seen one with very different looking graphite plates made for the German military (I will try to find the picture)
> For the Bendix answer looking people:
> 
> Here is the updated Bendix 6080WB list:
> ...


Thought this would help. It appears most of the images are down but there’s some descriptions.


----------



## mordy

Thanks


----------



## adeadcrab

shafat777 said:


> @adeadcrab
> Judging from your post, i am assuming bendix are good tubes? The reason i bought these is becaause a few forum members told me that Tung-sol 6080s are excellent tubes for low end extension.


S grade, on par with 5998 and 7236. Queue the flame war... I think most people agree those are the best 6AS7G type tubes you can get (besides WE 421 and the GEC tubes of course)


----------



## JKDJedi

shafat777 said:


> @adeadcrab
> Judging from your post, i am assuming bendix are good tubes? The reason i bought these is becaause a few forum members told me that Tung-sol 6080s are excellent tubes for low end extension.


they probably were referring to the Chatham/Tung Sol 6080 (steel plates) tubes as those have nice low end and you grabbed a pair of (Bendix made) Tung Sol tubes instead (by accident?) anyways...the Bendix made Tung Sols are of better quality.


----------



## shafat777

JKDJedi said:


> they probably were referring to the Chatham/Tung Sol 6080 (steel plates) tubes as those have nice low end and you grabbed a pair of (Bendix made) Tung Sol tubes instead (by accident?) anyways...the Bendix made Tung Sols are of better quality.


i bought these https://www.ebay.com/itm/Good-Pair-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## JKDJedi

shafat777 said:


> i bought these https://www.ebay.com/itm/Good-Pair-TungSol-6080WB-Graphite-Anode-Vacuum-Tubes-Same-1961-Date/154200333454?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


and these are the metal plated Tung Sols I was referring too ..


----------



## shafat777

Glad i made a good purchase. Thanks for the good news.


----------



## attmci

shafat777 said:


> Snap !!! Does that mean i have to wait up to an hour every time?


Do you by any chance has an oven?


----------



## attmci (Dec 5, 2020)

maxpudding said:


> *people who just started tube rolling be like: confused_meme.gif


https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf...tAhWFtVkKHWArC9oQ7Al6BAgGEAo&biw=1862&bih=909


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, buy this tube soon. It's a clear top for $ 80. I just don't buy it because it doesn't ship to Brazil.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/333815238749?ul_noapp=true


----------



## Paladin79

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1948-G...838221?hash=item5474faad0d:g:1sUAAOSwum1daJbd

This GE bears a lot of resemblance to military winged C's except for getter holders. Anyone every try one of these?


----------



## mordy

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1948-G...838221?hash=item5474faad0d:g:1sUAAOSwum1daJbd
> 
> This GE bears a lot of resemblance to military winged C's except for getter holders. Anyone every try one of these?


It is known that Svetlana bought a production line from RCA in 1937 and it is my contention that the Svetlana 6H13C is based on the RCA 6AS7G.
There were very few manufacturers of the 6AS7G tube, and this GE appears to me to be made by RCA.


----------



## SHIMACM

Is anyone interested in selling a GEC 6as7g / GEC 6080 and a Western Eletric 421a / Tung-Sol 5998 and willing to send it to Brazil?


----------



## Paladin79

mordy said:


> It is known that Svetlana bought a production line from RCA in 1937 and it is my contention that the Svetlana 6H13C is based on the RCA 6AS7G.
> There were very few manufacturers of the 6AS7G tube, and this GE appears to me to be made by RCA.


That may well be, most of my RCA's used top getters but the bottom shields are there.


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> It is known that Svetlana bought a production line from RCA in 1937 and it is my contention that the Svetlana 6H13C is based on the RCA 6AS7G.
> There were very few manufacturers of the 6AS7G tube, and this GE appears to me to be made by RCA.



Do you know what the date code (8-39) means on that tube?  I assume the 8 is the year, but which decade?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-1948-G...838221?hash=item5474faad0d:g:1sUAAOSwum1daJbd
> 
> This GE bears a lot of resemblance to military winged C's except for getter holders. Anyone every try one of these?


Same build and getter as the Cunningham (RCA) 6as7g


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Do you know what the date code (8-39) means on that tube?  I assume the 8 is the year, but which decade?


Have a hunch it's a 48'


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> Do you know what the date code (8-39) means on that tube?  I assume the 8 is the year, but which decade?


That is a tricky question. 39 is the 39th week meaning September. The 6AS7G was first produced in 1945 so the first decade is the 40's. Now, is it 1948, 1958 or 1968? The RCA 6AS7G I have are from 1953-1974. The boxes changed their look over the years so that may be a clue, and of course some boxes may have the dates on them as well. Sometimes there are minor changes in how the internals look in a tube which is also of help.




Here is some information on GE boxes:
http://pax-comm.com/pa01017.htm
Based on information available you should be able to make an educated guess, give or take a decade lol.....


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> Do you know what the date code (8-39) means on that tube?  I assume the 8 is the year, but which decade?


Looked over the seller's offer now - he states 1948 and based on the look of the GE box it is most likely correct. If you want to save money you could buy a RCA branded tube at significant cost savings. The prices are all over the map but with patience you can still find these tubes for less than $10.
Here is a listing of what these tubes sold for on eBay in the past 60 days:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=RCA+6AS7G&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> That is a tricky question. 39 is the 39th week meaning September. The 6AS7G was first produced in 1945 so the first decade is the 40's. Now, is it 1948, 1958 or 1968? The RCA 6AS7G I have are from 1953-1974. The boxes changed their look over the years so that may be a clue, and of course some boxes may have the dates on them as well. Sometimes there are minor changes in how the internals look in a tube which is also of help.
> 
> Here is some information on GE boxes:
> http://pax-comm.com/pa01017.htm
> Based on information available you should be able to make an educated guess, give or take a decade lol.....


RCA tubes late 50's are marked with both numeral digits, 56-57-59-  This tube is just 8-39


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> That is a tricky question. 39 is the 39th week meaning September. The 6AS7G was first produced in 1945 so the first decade is the 40's. Now, is it 1948, 1958 or 1968? The RCA 6AS7G I have are from 1953-1974. The boxes changed their look over the years so that may be a clue, and of course some boxes may have the dates on them as well. Sometimes there are minor changes in how the internals look in a tube which is also of help.
> 
> Here is some information on GE boxes:
> http://pax-comm.com/pa01017.htm
> Based on information available you should be able to make an educated guess, give or take a decade lol.....





mordy said:


> Looked over the seller's offer now - he states 1948 and based on the look of the GE box it is most likely correct. If you want to save money you could buy a RCA branded tube at significant cost savings. The prices are all over the map but with patience you can still find these tubes for less than $10.
> Here is a listing of what these tubes sold for on eBay in the past 60 days:
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=RCA+6AS7G&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1



Well then based on my usually fallible powers of deduction:

1) If it's a '48 that rules out KenRad.
2) The rectangular getter rules out Svetlana.
3) The lack of etched dots (likely) mean it wasn't actually made by GE.
4) This leaves RCA which would fall in line with the other internal construction details.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> Looked over the seller's offer now - he states 1948 and based on the look of the GE box it is most likely correct. If you want to save money you could buy a RCA branded tube at significant cost savings. The prices are all over the map but with patience you can still find these tubes for less than $10.
> Here is a listing of what these tubes sold for on eBay in the past 60 days:
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=RCA+6AS7G&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1


Yeah but the sound on these tubes are superior to them later RCA tubes, night and day, not the same tube (it's RCA just not the same sonics). I got lucky with a 49' for less than half of what this seller is asking, How bad do want this guy, hell, I'm tempted to grab this one..


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> RCA tubes late 50's are marked with both numeral digits, 56-57-59-  This tube is just 8-39


You are right, but since the tube is marked GE it doesn't take much to change the numbering a little.


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> Yeah but the sound on these tubes are superior to them later RCA tubes, night and day, not the same tube (it's RCA just not the same sonics). I got lucky with a 49' for less than half of what this seller is asking, How bad do want this guy, hell, I'm tempted to grab this one..


I have heard the same information that the early tubes sounded better. Would you know what year the change occurred?


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> I have heard the same information that the early tubes sounded better. Would you know what year the change occurred?


Probably when they went top getter is my guess.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 6, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Probably when they went top getter is my guess.


Really????  LOL Here is a JAN RCA 6AS7G , 3-39


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> Probably when they went top getter is my guess.


Went through my stash of RCA 6AS7G (8 RCA and 2 labeled Sylvania). They are from 1954 (not 1953 what I wrote above) - 1974 and all of them have the top getters so I can't compare the different constructions. At least they have increased in value from what I paid for them.....


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Really????  LOL Here is a JAN RCA 6AS7G , 3-39



That might be a 19*5*3. Guessing not a '63 based on the RCA logo design on the base.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 6, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Really????  LOL Here is a JAN RCA 6AS7G , 3-39





Paladin79 said:


> Really????  LOL Here is a JAN RCA 6AS7G , 3-39


I was skeptical too, and for $25 took the curious gamble on the RCA bottom getter, I'm a believer now. Grab one and check it out.


----------



## mordy

Paladin79 said:


> Really????  LOL Here is a JAN RCA 6AS7G , 3-39





bcowen said:


> That might be a 19*5*3. Guessing not a '63 based on the RCA logo design on the base.


Looks like a 1953 to me too - is that a Signal Corps logo? All my tubes have the getter flash on top like this one which should indicate a top getter.


----------



## Paladin79

mordy said:


> Went through my stash of RCA 6AS7G (8 RCA and 2 labeled Sylvania). They are from 1954 (not 1953 what I wrote above) - 1974 and all of them have the top getters so I can't compare the different constructions. At least they have increased in value from what I paid for them.....


All of mine have top getters except for another Jan tube marked 1-04.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I was skeptical too, and for $25 took the curious gamble on the RCA bottom getter, I'm a believer now. Grab one and check it out.



I own them and have compared them with other Jan RCA tubes thanks.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 6, 2020)

mordy said:


> Looks like a 1953 to me too - is that a Signal Corps logo? All my tubes have the getter flash on top like this one which should indicate a top getter.


I have an SC bottom getter, that one has an eagle with arrows in place of that logo.

Most all of my power tubes are top getter, Tung Sol 5998's, 7236, Chatham 6080's etc. I place no significance in top or bottom getter and I have run them through a small group of friends, we have never done a big study on power tubes in blind listening.


----------



## therremans (Dec 6, 2020)

Here is the 1950 that I own.

Edit: Yes, clear top, single bottom D getter (large, rectangular)


----------



## mordy

Paladin79 said:


> I have an SC bottom getter, that one has an eagle with arrows in place of that logo.
> 
> Most all of my power tubes are top getter, Tung Sol 5998's, 7236, Chatham 6080's etc. I place no significance in top or bottom getter and I have run them through a small group of friends, we have never done a big study on power tubes in blind listening.


There is usually a number associated with the US Signal Corps logo - usually three digits. I am not sure but I think that that number is some kind of quality control number, similar to the OTK number on Russian tubes.
The earlier RCA tubes have a different construction on the bottom compared to the newer ones and there is some kind of metal rectangle visible but it appears to me that if it is a getter, the getter flash (silver) should be close by and not on the top of the tube. But certainly that rectangle helps to identify the earlier tubes. On the other hand, some tubes have more than one getter (even up to four (!)) and it could be that the second getter flash is out of sight on the bottom.


----------



## mordy

therremans said:


> Here is the 1950 that I own.


That 1950 tube looks like a cleartop with bottom getter.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Have a hunch it's a 48'



I would agree. 

To the best of my knowledge, from 1948 to 1955, GE used Y-MM. And from 1956 to 1964, YY-MM. After 1964, they switched to using a two-letter date code. Further, they began to use the sand-blasted dot date codes in 1952. So yes, 1948 fits. 

And yes, it is an RCA. GE purchased Ken-Rad in 1945 and KR never manufactured the 6AS7G.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Here is the 1950 that I own.


I can only find 51,53, and 54 without digging through boxes in my shop.

Then I have a photo of a 55 Svetlana with the bottom shield, pretty much identical to a 51 RCA bottom getter except for getter holder. The 55 did not use the flying saucer getter holders but they are similar.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Listening to an RCA (branded National) with a bottom D getter with (2) 7A4 tubes today.  I've spent 3 days listening with a Mullard 6080. 

The clear top bottom getter RCA 6as7g has punchier bass than the 6080.  The overall sound is drier, it doesn't have as much body to it as the 6080 which I could see being better or worse depending on the genre.  The detail is far greater than the 6080 because the tube is a bit more dry.  I hear more on the top-end of the treble, too.

Overall, I like the tube paired with a warm driver.  I (like @JKDJedi seems to imply) feel the advantage over the top getter RCA is actually fairly significant in terms of details, bass, and the overall sound quality of the tube.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 7, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Listening to an RCA (branded National) with a bottom D getter with (2) 7A4 tubes today.  I've spent 3 days listening with a Mullard 6080.
> 
> The clear top bottom getter RCA 6as7g has punchier bass than the 6080.  The overall sound is drier, it doesn't have as much body to it as the 6080 which I could see being better or worse depending on the genre.  The detail is far greater than the 6080 because the tube is a bit more dry.  I hear more on the top-end of the treble, too.
> 
> Overall, I like the tube paired with a warm driver.  I (like @JKDJedi seems to imply) feel the advantage over the top getter RCA is actually fairly significant in terms of details, bass, and the overall sound quality of the tube.


I guess I should stop listening to my Tung Sol 5998's then, they are top getter.   Having had tube theory in college I am still trying to figure out a basis for getter location making much difference in SQ. I have top, bottom, and side getter tubes and saying one is better than the other because of that makes little sense to me, but each to his own. Types of getter holders help us identify certain tubes. I am currently listening to a Sylvania bad boy with a 5998, and I am not impressed. I prefer the tall body chrome dome with mouse ears.

Oh and since you are running 7A4's, here is the military version, VT-192's with a 5998. Your amp is pretty similar to this one


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I guess I should stop listening to my Tung Sol 5998's then, they are top getter.   Having had tube theory in college I am still trying to figure out a basis for getter location making much difference in SQ. I have top, bottom, and side getter tubes and saying one is better than the other because of that makes little sense to me, but each to his own. Types of getter holders help us identify certain tubes. I am currently listening to a Sylvania bad boy with a 5998, and I am not impressed. I prefer the tall body chrome dome with mouse ears.


I may be biased.  I slightly prefer my bottom getter Chatham 5998 compared to my top and side getter Tung-Sol 5998 when playing them in my Incubus Elegan amp.  Maybe it's an issue of the amp???


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 7, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> I may be biased.  I slightly prefer my bottom getter Chatham 5998 compared to my top and side getter Tung-Sol 5998 when playing them in my Incubus Elegan amp.  Maybe it's an issue of the amp???


Likes and dislikes are a little tricky and I own me some Chathams.  Headphones are a factor, music source is a factor, as are ears. I prefer the 5998 with Focal Utopias my cables, and music source. An Incubus should let you hear a great deal of difference between tubes, that is how I designed it. Now if you told me all the tubes sound the same, I would be insulted. 

If things ever return to normal my local group will do a blind listen in four Incubus amps to 52 of what we score as the top 6sn7's in the world. If we can get through that, our next goal is a blind listen on 6as7g equivalent tubes. The baseline tube we have selected for the first test is the Tung Sol top getter 5998 so yeah I listen to it a lot when helping choose 6sn7's. We have a metal cover that can go down over both tubes and the tubes are in the same pattern you have. Provided we can locate four equal 6sn7's as our top tube in that category, they will be the baseline for the power tube blind listen. The bottom getter Chatham could score higher than the 5998, it could score lower, both could be toward the top or toward the middle, hard to say. I expect neither to be toward the bottom.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I guess I should stop listening to my Tung Sol 5998's then, they are top getter.   Having had tube theory in college I am still trying to figure out a basis for getter location making much difference in SQ. I have top, bottom, and side getter tubes and saying one is better than the other because of that makes little sense to me, but each to his own. Types of getter holders help us identify certain tubes. I am currently listening to a Sylvania bad boy with a 5998, and I am not impressed. I prefer the tall body chrome dome with mouse ears.
> 
> Oh and since you are running 7A4's, here is the military version, VT-192's ith a 5998. Your amp is pretty similar





Paladin79 said:


> I guess I should stop listening to my Tung Sol 5998's then, they are top getter.   Having had tube theory in college I am still trying to figure out a basis for getter location making much difference in SQ. I have top, bottom, and side getter tubes and saying one is better than the other because of that makes little sense to me, but each to his own. Types of getter holders help us identify certain tubes. I am currently listening to a Sylvania bad boy with a 5998, and I am not impressed. I prefer the tall body chrome dome with mouse ears.
> 
> Oh and since you are running 7A4's, here is the military version, VT-192's with a 5998. Your amp is pretty similar to this one


Was it something I said?... 😏 bottom getter 5998 sound better too... (got 421a?) 

I'm half joking here..  
#truelies


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Was it something I said?... 😏 bottom getter 5998 sound better too... (got 421a?)
> 
> I'm half joking here..
> #truelies


I do not have them in my house at this time, but I have heard them and have access to them. I loan out a lot of tubes and give some away as you know.
We all have our own preferences but some statements can cause me to scratch my head at times. If I like a tube, I could not care less where the getter holder is placed or who made it or the price. Now ink color used on the tube base, that can make or break a tube!!!!  LOL later, dinner soon.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 7, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I do not have them in my house at this time, but I have heard them and have access to them. I loan out a lot of tubes and give some away as you know.
> We all have our own preferences but some statements can cause me to scratch my head at times. If I like a tube, I could not care less where the getter holder is placed or who made it or the price. Now ink color used on the tube base, that can make or break a tube!!!!  LOL later, dinner soon.


I got ya, same here. I read somewhere that , and it's from a fan page so take it with a grain of salt,

" the getter is located on the bottom for WE where Tung-sol has the getter on the top (this might seem like a small thing, but it is actually quite important since getter material, despite third mica gets all over the place during application and since Barium is a metal, it reduces tube performance (through the increase of capacitance".

That made me spend the xtra $100 on a Western Electric... 🤣🤣

I'm sure the top getter sound excellent from the lower 50's (like your RCA samples). the samples I had were from the mid 60's. I'm just biased towards bottom getter tubes at the moment. And done, no more about this from me guys..


----------



## Velozity

I see no end in sight for this one...


----------



## bcowen (Dec 7, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I do not have them in my house at this time, but I have heard them and have access to them. I loan out a lot of tubes and give some away as you know.
> We all have our own preferences but some statements can cause me to scratch my head at times. If I like a tube, I could not care less where the getter holder is placed or who made it or the price. Now ink color used on the tube base, that can make or break a tube!!!!  LOL later, dinner soon.



Unless someone reading is a total newbie, we all know that purple ink sounds best.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Unless someone reading is a total newbie, we all know that purple ink sounds best.



Or one of my favorites: Brown bases always sound better than black ones. lol


----------



## bcowen (Dec 7, 2020)

gibosi said:


> Or one of my favorites: Brown bases always sound better than black ones. lol



LOL!  Carolina Blue bases are the absolute best, but that is somewhat dependent on personal preference.


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> Or one of my favorites: Brown bases always sound better than black ones. lol


No the curved bases sound better than the squared ones...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> No the curved bases sound better than the squared ones...



No, the coin base ones sound even better than the curved ones....*if* you've been listening to a GE for the last year (and haven't already switched to another hobby in complete disgust).


----------



## mordy

Paladin79 said:


> I do not have them in my house at this time, but I have heard them and have access to them. I loan out a lot of tubes and give some away as you know.
> We all have our own preferences but some statements can cause me to scratch my head at times. If I like a tube, I could not care less where the getter holder is placed or who made it or the price. Now ink color used on the tube base, that can make or break a tube!!!!  LOL later, dinner soon.


"_If I like a tube, I could not care less where the getter holder is placed or who made it or the price." _
I am probably from a different generation, and I get a kick out of finding inexpensive tubes that can run with the best and most expensive ones. If it is possible, when you do the blindfold test of the best 6SN7 tubes, try to smuggle in pairs of 6C5/6J5 triodes in place of the 6SN7. And they should not cost more than a few bucks each. You may be surprised how they compare to the name brand 6SN7 tubes....


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> No the curved bases sound better than the squared ones...



Well, we all know that none of these are true. There is only one truth: "The more a tube costs the better it sounds."


----------



## Paladin79

mordy said:


> "_If I like a tube, I could not care less where the getter holder is placed or who made it or the price." _
> I am probably from a different generation, and I get a kick out of finding inexpensive tubes that can run with the best and most expensive ones. If it is possible, when you do the blindfold test of the best 6SN7 tubes, try to smuggle in pairs of 6C5/6J5 triodes in place of the 6SN7. And they should not cost more than a few bucks each. You may be surprised how they compare to the name brand 6SN7 tubes....


For brevity I did not say 6sn7 equivalents. The setup I built allows for single triode tubes as well. I have done a lot with 6j5’s and 7a4’s etc. Blind testing and our rating system means a $20 tube or set of tubes could make the final 52. We eliminate bias whether it might be based on brand, configuration, or cost. Now when I concealed tubes for @bcowen or Jason at Schiit I was limited by glass shape. Then I decided to do something all inclusive. I will do the same for power tubes. I found a rare Russian Melz variant for very little money that is one of my contributions. In blind preliminary testing it averaged close to the maximum 100 point system we use. At least 50 people will do final blind listening. We have done this with equipment and $500 DAC’s beat out some costing thousands. One young lady I sponsored got the final order correct, and that is very rare. Usually a group average is more accurate than an individual.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> Well, we all know that none of these are true. There is only one truth: "The more a tube costs the better it sounds."


I keep waiting for Bill to make an offer on my GE collection, maybe I should raise the price.😜


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> "_If I like a tube, I could not care less where the getter holder is placed or who made it or the price." _
> I am probably from a different generation, and I get a kick out of finding inexpensive tubes that can run with the best and most expensive ones. If it is possible, when you do the blindfold test of the best 6SN7 tubes, try to smuggle in pairs of 6C5/6J5 triodes in place of the 6SN7. And they should not cost more than a few bucks each. You may be surprised how they compare to the name brand 6SN7 tubes....


But you always want what you don't have.. just nature.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> But you always want what you don't have.. just nature.


What you don't have?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-jps-labs-abyss-ab-1266-impressions-thread.666765/page-870


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> What you don't have?
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-jps-labs-abyss-ab-1266-impressions-thread.666765/page-870


Confused one says.... #whenyoucansnatchthepebblefrommyhand


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> What you don't have?
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-jps-labs-abyss-ab-1266-impressions-thread.666765/page-870


Even if you have "everything" you want more - I just bought 8 MELZ 6N12S tubes lol....


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> Even if you have "everything" you want more - I just bought 8 MELZ 6N12S tubes lol....


exactly...nature of the beast.


----------



## attmci (Dec 7, 2020)

mordy said:


> Even if you have "everything" you want more - I just bought 8 MELZ 6N12S tubes lol....


I bought about a dozen Russian 6SN7s you recommended b4, now you claim the MELZ is better.....................

Have to sell some ECCxx to fund this purchase. LOL


----------



## JKDJedi

Speaking of beasts.. the Bendix 6080.. what's your favorite driver for this guy?


----------



## mordy

JKDJedi said:


> exactly...nature of the beast.


And then there is that little voice that says: "it is a good investment." Except I very rarely sell a tube....But truth is, the prices are really going up. A tube that cost $100 4-5 years ago could sell for $400-500 today.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> exactly...nature of the beast.


One thing a few of us do is figure out a way to have the hobby pay for itself. One might repair and calibrate tube testers, or buy and sell tubes or refurbish amps etc. Heck a few build Bottlehead Cracks and sell them on EBay.


----------



## JKDJedi

mordy said:


> And then there is that little voice that says: "it is a good investment." Except I very rarely sell a tube....But truth is, the prices are really going up. A tube that cost $100 4-5 years ago could sell for $400-500 today.


it's gone crazy, 2020. two BGRP for $800... it's insane. Now's a good time to sell if your thinking about it, I am.


----------



## mordy

attmci said:


> I bought about a dozen Russian 6SN7s you recommended b4, not you claims the MELZ is better.....................
> 
> Have to sell some ECCxx to fund this purchase. LOL


The1952-55  Foton 6H8S with the ladder style plate was discovered a couple of years ago. At that time I would not consider the Melz 1578 because it was too expensive. Now we found a Melz variant 6N12S at a bargain price and I tried it - better than the Foton. You learn new things all the time...
The Foton tube has only increased twofold in price:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...037764?hash=item4db8ddfd04:g:jsQAAOSwxklfeABj
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-...055645?hash=item23e6fadd1d:g:pqkAAOSwmU5fs9-4
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N12S-6BL7...763490?hash=item342e1a2022:g:QQ8AAOSwvY5fMClq


----------



## Paladin79

mordy said:


> The1952-55  Foton 6H8S with the ladder style plate was discovered a couple of years ago. At that time I would not consider the Melz 1578 because it was too expensive. Now we found a Melz variant 6N12S at a bargain price and I tried it - better than the Foton. You learn new things all the time...
> The Foton tube has only increased twofold in price:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...037764?hash=item4db8ddfd04:g:jsQAAOSwxklfeABj
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-...055645?hash=item23e6fadd1d:g:pqkAAOSwmU5fs9-4
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N12S-6BL7...763490?hash=item342e1a2022:g:QQ8AAOSwvY5fMClq


Melz and Foton both have issues with the solder they used. Hopefully you are aware of that. Fotons especially.


----------



## mordy

Paladin79 said:


> One thing a few of us do is figure out a way to have the hobby pay for itself. One might repair and calibrate tube testers, or buy and sell tubes or refurbish amps etc. Heck a few build Bottlehead Cracks and sell them on EBay.


I wish I was handy with with electronics but I don't have the skills or background. Have several pieces of equipment that need repairs but where I live there is no good (and cheap) repair shop.


----------



## mordy

Paladin79 said:


> Melz and Foton both have issues with the solder they used. Hopefully you are aware of that. Fotons especially.


Did not have any problems with the early Fotons, but the Melz tubes I have sometimes benefit from re-heating the pins because of hum. At one point Feliks Audio used Melz tubes but stopped because of quality problems.
As a rule I have heard from people in-the-know that the quality of Russian tubes started to decline in the 70's.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 7, 2020)

mordy said:


> The1952-55  Foton 6H8S with the ladder style plate was discovered a couple of years ago. At that time I would not consider the Melz 1578 because it was too expensive. Now we found a Melz variant 6N12S at a bargain price and I tried it - better than the Foton. You learn new things all the time...
> The Foton tube has only increased twofold in price:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...037764?hash=item4db8ddfd04:g:jsQAAOSwxklfeABj
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-...055645?hash=item23e6fadd1d:g:pqkAAOSwmU5fs9-4
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N12S-6BL7...763490?hash=item342e1a2022:g:QQ8AAOSwvY5fMClq


I was looking at that listing yesterday (first one you listed) and didn't notice the ladder plates on that.. what!? Did they just go ladder plates in that time period? (or maybe I need glasses, they are ladder plates in that photo..no?)


----------



## Paladin79

mordy said:


> Did not have any problems with the early Fotons, but the Melz tubes I have sometimes benefit from re-heating the pins because of hum. At one point Feliks Audio used Melz tubes but stopped because of quality problems.
> As a rule I have heard from people in-the-know that the quality of Russian tubes started to decline in the 70's.


The early Fotons were thought to need 100 burn in, replace the solder and, that clears up. I have had Melz I cleaned and resoldered 2-3 times before they were right. 
Many still give a little noise with no signal.

Do you have any tube amps needing repaired? I have helped some people when I have the time.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Speaking of beasts.. the Bendix 6080.. what's your favorite driver for this guy?



This one:


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> This one:


Your sad.. lol.. I was like oh hell yeah,... then saw the $$$$$   dejected..


----------



## attmci (Dec 7, 2020)

mordy said:


> The1952-55  Foton 6H8S with the ladder style plate was discovered a couple of years ago. At that time I would not consider the Melz 1578 because it was too expensive. Now we found a Melz variant 6N12S at a bargain price and I tried it - better than the Foton. You learn new things all the time...
> The Foton tube has only increased twofold in price:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-1-p...037764?hash=item4db8ddfd04:g:jsQAAOSwxklfeABj
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-...055645?hash=item23e6fadd1d:g:pqkAAOSwmU5fs9-4
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N12S-6BL7...763490?hash=item342e1a2022:g:QQ8AAOSwvY5fMClq


I am pretty sure I saw those Melz in the past.

BTW, I haven't purchased any tubes in the last couple of months.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I was looking at that listing yesterday (first one you listed) and didn't notice the ladder plates on that.. what!? Did they just go ladder plates in that time period? (or maybe I need glasses, they are ladder plates in that photo..no?)



No, the first link is a Foton 6N8S with the standard T-plates, and the standard T-plates with holes in the Melz. That 6N12S intrigues me though as it looks like it has round plates.  If I was buying any more tubes, of course.


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> This one:



Just click on that buy it now button.  Everyone is doing it...


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> Just click on that buy it now button.  Everyone is doing it...


But it won't pass the blind test!!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I keep waiting for Bill to make an offer on my GE collection, maybe I should raise the price.😜



I've made so many offers on those GE's I can't even keep track anymore.  If you remember, my last offer was to send them all to me (shipping prepaid) along with a check for $1000.  I even noted you could pay me with PayPal.  Final offer:  all the tubes plus $2000 and I'll take them.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> No, the first link is a Foton 6N8S with the standard T-plates, and the standard T-plates with holes in the Melz. That 6N12S intrigues me though as it looks like it has round plates.  If I was buying any more tubes, of course.


Ok, I'm sane then, don't know about the rest of you guys though, and the 6BL7 tubes probably not for 6vlt amps, correct?


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> The Foton tube has only increased twofold in price:



Once they get to 4x, I'll get busy on Ebay.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

Slade01 said:


> Just click on that buy it now button.  Everyone is doing it...


I have access to one but the owner paid closer to $1k.

That sounds like a great deal Bill but I should sleep on it.  Do I need to throw in a free amp this time? Once I win a bet the Cowen may be up for grabs.😎


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Once they get to 4x, I'll get busy on Ebay.  LOL!


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I have access to one but the owner paid closer to $1k.
> 
> That sounds like a great deal Bill but I should sleep on it.  Do I need to throw in a free amp this time? Once I win a bet the Cowen may be up for grabs.😎


Lets send him around for everyone to sample him!!


----------



## JKDJedi

I better leave, I'm having to much fun here.. alright guys, I gotta go nite nite.. been fun chatting. #peace


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Ok, I'm sane then, don't know about the rest of you guys though, and the 6BL7 tubes probably not for 6vlt amps, correct?



It's 6.3 volts, but probably pretty risky in the DV or Incubus with a 1.5 amp current draw on the heater.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have access to one but the owner paid closer to $1k.
> 
> That sounds like a great deal Bill but I should sleep on it.  Do I need to throw in a free amp this time? Once I win a bet the Cowen may be up for grabs.😎



OK, ok.  Only for you.  Tubes, free shipping, free amp, and we'll go back to $1000.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 8, 2020)

bcowen said:


> It's 6.3 volts, but probably pretty risky in the DV or Incubus with a 1.5 amp current draw on the heater.


tha


bcowen said:


> It's 6.3 volts, but probably pretty risky in the DV or Incubus with a 1.5 amp current draw on the heater.


.. 53' Fotons and Bendix... #todiefor on the Incubus amp.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> No the curved bases sound better than the squared ones...


I like my bases like my paramours: curved!!!


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Lets send him around for everyone to sample him!!


Now there is a bad idea. I believe our most expensive tube is in the $2,000 range, we have two that have no price since there were none sold to compare them to. Engineering samples made by a friends grandfather while with RCA.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> OK, ok.  Only for you.  Tubes, free shipping, free amp, and we'll go back to $1000.


What a guy!  Seriously though I need to finish that amp one day soon, once I stop building Xmas gifts. I would like to hear your Cary superamp one day though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It's 6.3 volts, but probably pretty risky in the DV or Incubus with a 1.5 amp current draw on the heater.


Very good advice and good catch.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> Likes and dislikes are a little tricky and I own me some Chathams.  Headphones are a factor, music source is a factor, as are ears. I prefer the 5998 with Focal Utopias my cables, and music source. An Incubus should let you hear a great deal of difference between tubes, that is how I designed it. Now if you told me all the tubes sound the same, I would be insulted.
> 
> If things ever return to normal my local group will do a blind listen in four Incubus amps to 52 of what we score as the top 6sn7's in the world. If we can get through that, our next goal is a blind listen on 6as7g equivalent tubes. The baseline tube we have selected for the first test is the Tung Sol top getter 5998 so yeah I listen to it a lot when helping choose 6sn7's. We have a metal cover that can go down over both tubes and the tubes are in the same pattern you have. Provided we can locate four equal 6sn7's as our top tube in that category, they will be the baseline for the power tube blind listen. The bottom getter Chatham could score higher than the 5998, it could score lower, both could be toward the top or toward the middle, hard to say. I expect neither to be toward the bottom.


I was, of course, being facetious about the Incubus amp, it's flawless and beautiful sounding.  The dual 7a4 in place of the 6sn7 is a treat, too.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 8, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> I was, of course, being facetious about the Incubus amp, it's flawless and beautiful sounding.  The dual 7a4 in place of the 6sn7 is a treat, too.


whew!
Only a couple people have received my amp without first hearing a sample and knowing what to expect, you are one of them lol. If I ever find a quantity of Melz solid plate 6h8c tubes you will have to hear one in that amp. I like the 5998 but obviously others prefer other power tubes in the amp.

Oh and facetious is a great word, it shares something in common with such words as abstemious.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> whew!
> Only a couple people have received my amp without first hearing a sample and knowing what to expect, you are one of them lol. If I ever find a quantity of Melz solid plate 6h8c tubes you will have to hear one in that amp. I like the 5998 but obviously others prefer other power tubes in the amp.
> 
> Oh and facetious is a great word, it shares something in common with such words as abstemious.


Am I the only one who had to look that up? 


"for someone who exercises restraint, especially with regard to alcohol. A rock musician may sing about enjoying wine and women, but in his private life he may be _abstemious"_


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Am I the only one who had to look that up?
> 
> 
> "for someone who exercises restraint, especially with regard to alcohol. A rock musician may sing about enjoying wine and women, but in his private life he may be _abstemious"_



But what do the two words have in common and it has nothing to do with their definition?  Answer, both words use vowels in order, a,e,i,o,u.
Sorry this is way off track.

Jedi what is your absolute favorite power tube in the Incubus?  Obviously you have a Bendix and other power tubes. I am more apt to trade out driver tubes myself and I own a lot of versions of RCA, Svetlana, Chatham, Tung Sol, Cetron 7236 etc.

We all have our preferences, I know some go for a lot of bass but I prefer an accurate bass that does not muddle the lower end of the mid range. Bass is important but I pay more attention to mids and highs.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> But what do the two words have in common and it has nothing to do with their definition?  Answer, both words use vowels in order, a,e,i,o,u.
> Sorry this is way off track.
> 
> Jedi what is your absolute favorite power tube in the Incubus?  Obviously you have a Bendix and other power tubes. I am more apt to trade out driver tubes myself and I own a lot of versions of RCA, Svetlana, Chatham, Tung Sol, Cetron 7236 etc.
> ...



In a different amp, I tend to stick with one set of output tubes for a couple weeks or so, and roll in different rectifiers and drivers in search of a combination that hits the spot.  

For now, I have the old Svetlana 6N5S you recently featured, with the RCA-like shields below the bottom mica spacer, and my current roll is a 596 rectifier and a pair of triode-strapped Mullard EL42 pentodes. And I'm thinking I can happily live with this for a while.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Am I the only one who had to look that up?



No, but I think @Paladin79 should abnegate further use of words that require googling...


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> But what do the two words have in common and it has nothing to do with their definition?  Answer, both words use vowels in order, a,e,i,o,u.
> Sorry this is way off track.
> 
> Jedi what is your absolute favorite power tube in the Incubus?  Obviously you have a Bendix and other power tubes. I am more apt to trade out driver tubes myself and I own a lot of versions of RCA, Svetlana, Chatham, Tung Sol, Cetron 7236 etc.
> ...


I have no preference in the output tube.  

(although if left stranded on an island and only had room for that one tube... Western Electric 421a) 

As you mentioned driver tubes have their character so matching an output tube can be challenging if your limited.

I like low end that extends forever .. grew up near Brooklyn NY (birthplace of Hip Hop) well, 2.5 hours away from there, and back then if the track had no bass... 

The Winged C have very tight bass, the RCA very loose bass, the Chatham 6as7g sits somewhere in-between, I really like the Chatham on the Incubus. 

GEC sounds great, Bendix, and the WE really excel on the Incubus. I'm currently rolling the Bendix. Giving it it's time out in the air. 

And... just in from Australia, a gentleman gifted me a challenge to see if I can fix this output tube that's been giving him problems. and to my HUGE Surprise ... the tube is one that I've been *wanting* very bad.. my jaw nearly dropped when I noticed what it was.. if I can get this going ..I might just shed a tear of joy.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> No, but I think @Paladin79 should abnegate further use of words that require googling...


Sorry I was using English words, I will try to stick with gibberish for you.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I have no preference in the output tube.
> 
> (although if left stranded on an island and only had room for that one tube... Western Electric 421a)
> 
> ...



In the Incubus, the Chatham 6AS7G is one of my most favorites. I like the TS 5998, Bendix 6080 graphite plate the WE 421A, and on the rare occasion that Marilyn Manson isn't first on the playlist, the Mullard 6080.  But that Chatham 6AS7G just seems to sing no matter what it's partnered with. I'd be looking for another one if I was still buying tubes.  LOL!!


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I was using English words, I will try to stick with gibberish for you.



Thanking you I will be.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> I have no preference in the output tube.
> 
> (although if left stranded on an island and only had room for that one tube... Western Electric 421a)
> 
> ...



May I ask what is special about this tube? I have a similar one JAN-CAHG-5998 and it is also giving me trouble. Is it not just a regular 5998?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 8, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> I have no preference in the output tube.
> 
> (although if left stranded on an island and only had room for that one tube... Western Electric 421a)
> 
> ...


This is something I found, when doing a bit of research. 
​

Chatham Electronics Div was latterly a Division of Tung-Sol Electric Inc, Livingston, NJ. This in turn was part of Wagner Electric Corp in 1966 finally acquired by Studebaker in 1967. The Chatham organisation manufactured equipment but the tubes owe more to Tung-Sol as Chatham was not independent of their parent company.


----------



## mordy

The Chatham 6080 has a very tight bass.
And here is a word I like: Serendipitous

Here is a thought about finding best sounding tubes: IMHO it depends on the amp you are using and synergy with other tubes. That said, there is a small group of tubes that sound good in almost any setting.
But it could be that one tube sounds just meh in one amp and great in another.....Or two ordinary tubes that don't sound that special in general, but in a certain specific combination they really shine.


----------



## therremans

mordy said:


> The Chatham 6080 has a very tight bass.
> And here is a word I like: Serendipitous
> 
> Here is a thought about finding best sounding tubes: IMHO it depends on the amp you are using and synergy with other tubes. That said, there is a small group of tubes that sound good in almost any setting.
> But it could be that one tube sounds just meh in one amp and great in another.....Or two ordinary tubes that don't sound that special in general, but in a certain specific combination they really shine.


Yes, was just saying that earlier today. You may have everything sorted out in your mind.. until you swap your pads, get new headphones, or a new amp, etc. You just work with the tubes you have and put together the pieces to build something that sounds optimum to your ears on the other end. I like getting to know a tube well enough to guess what will likely work well with it, on the power or output side.


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> May I ask what is special about this tube? I have a similar one JAN-CAHG-5998 and it is also giving me trouble. Is it not just a regular 5998?


Rare to find (in todays market) a Chatham *bottom getter *5998


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JKDJedi said:


> Rare to find (in todays market) a Chatham *bottom getter *5998



Aha, I see mine has the same print but a top getter.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Rare to find (in todays market) a Chatham *bottom getter *5998


Ooh Ooh, mee mee, I bought one from ebay recently for next to nothing (like $80).  Sure it has some broken glass in the tube, but it sounds golden.  Mine has yellow text and is not a JAN model.  Just a regular civilian model.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 8, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Ooh Ooh, mee mee, I bought one from ebay recently for next to nothing (like $80).  Sure it has some broken glass in the tube, but it sounds golden.  Mine has yellow text and is not a JAN model.  Just a regular civilian model.


These JAN copys (with the lower double D getters) go for twice that, excellent grab there. 🙂 And yours is working..lol, mine is in ICU at the moment. #wishmeluck


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> This is something I found, when doing a bit of research.
> ​
> 
> Chatham Electronics Div was latterly a Division of Tung-Sol Electric Inc, Livingston, NJ. This in turn was part of Wagner Electric Corp in 1966 finally acquired by Studebaker in 1967. The Chatham organisation manufactured equipment but the tubes owe more to Tung-Sol as Chatham was not independent of their parent company.



And I would contend that it is not exactly accurate. Tung-Sol acquired Chatham in the mid 1950's. Prior to that time, Chatham manufactured 6AS7-type tubes, including 5998, 6080 and others. Tung-Sol never manufactured these tubes and it is likely that this was at least part of the the reason TS purchased Chatham.

And after TS acquired Chatham, these tubes continued to be manufactured in the same Chatham factory. The only thing that changed was executive management.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 8, 2020)

gibosi said:


> And I would contend that it is not exactly accurate. Tung-Sol acquired Chatham in the mid 1950's. Prior to that time, Chatham manufactured 6AS7-type tubes, including 5998, 6080 and others. Tung-Sol never manufactured these tubes and it is likely that this was at least part of the the reason TS purchased Chatham.
> 
> And after TS acquired Chatham, these tubes continued to be manufactured in the same Chatham factory. The only thing that changed was executive management.


That could very well be, I have seen different interpretations. This is probably more succinct.
*Tung*-*Sol* never manufactured the *6AS7G*. The only American manufacturers were Chatham and RCA. However, with the purchase of Chatham, *Tung*-*Sol* took over Chatham's manufacturing facilities for the *6AS7*, 7236, 6080, 5998 and others.

Then there are statements like this:

There is also the 5998 tube, made only by Tung-Sol regardless of branding, which does have different operating characteristics, and may or may not work in any given 6AS7G application, although it does in the amps I have, snd sounds a little better than most 6AS7G's. In general the 5998 offers slightly more neutral sound, slightly better transparency, and are less likely to be noisy. They are approximately 2-3x the price, generally, and I have seen some idiots paying $50 per tube on Ebay when you can buy them NOS from reputable online tube-sellers for $25 each. Still, this is more than double the 6AS7G price. 

Made only by Tung Sol no less lol.


----------



## therremans

Paladin79 said:


> Sorry I was using English words, I will try to stick with gibberish for you.





bcowen said:


> Thanking you I will be.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


>



ROFL!


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> And here is a word I like: Serendipitous



Crap. I guess Google should become my friend.  

But I totally agree with this part:


mordy said:


> Here is a thought about finding best sounding tubes: IMHO it depends on the amp you are using and synergy with other tubes. That said, there is a small group of tubes that sound good in almost any setting.
> But it could be that one tube sounds just meh in one amp and great in another.....Or two ordinary tubes that don't sound that special in general, but in a certain specific combination they really shine.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> And after TS acquired Chatham, these tubes continued to be manufactured in the same Chatham factory. The only thing that changed was executive management.



And it would appear by the continued sound quality that the management wasn't morphed into an army of bean counters....like what happened in Owensboro, Kentucky in 1945.


----------



## mordy

Decided to pull out my two 5998 tubes from my stash and take a look - are they the coveted bottom getters? No - both top getter. One is labeled IBM and bought from Canada, and the other a Tung Sol bought from Greece.
There are people who are very leery of this tube because it could arc over and blow a headphone driver or worse. Personally I have no problems with them but I don't use them much.


----------



## mordy

Just saw that Head-Fier Bonddam on the Feliks Audio Euforia thread is selling his 5998 tubes if somebody is interested - post #8586.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.831743/page-573


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 8, 2020)

*I HAVE CREATED FIRE...





*


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> *I HAVE CREATED FIRE...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice job 👏


----------



## maxpudding

JKDJedi said:


> *I HAVE CREATED FIRE...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice glow 👏🏻


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 8, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> *I HAVE CREATED FIRE...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That amp is still a favorite. Some of my early work with tulip poplar but that piece had some spalting that I tried to match with inlaid ebony and ebony splines. I still have the associated meter box, in it I attempted to wrap the meters with ebony a bit, just the opposite of the dual pots. I also used tiger maple top and bottom on the meter box. Often I will pick up a board and know what the amp will be, it is a simple process most of the time.


.



.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> That amp is still a favorite. Some of my early work with tulip poplar but that piece had some spalting that I tried to match with inlaid ebony and ebony splines. I still have the associated meter box, in it I attempted to wrap the meters with ebony a bit, just the opposite of the dual pots. I also used tiger maple top and bottom on the meter box. Often I will pick up a board and know what the amp will be, it is a simple process most of the time.
> 
> 
> .
> ...


The dual volume knobs was a HUGE help today.. HUGE...


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> The dual volume knobs was a HUGE help today.. HUGE...


I use them on my personal amps and prefer them. Tubes can vary a bit on each channel and it is a way of compensating, also the ability to hear each channel equally becomes a factor with some people. Sorry for being self-centered but I am fairly proud of that amp.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> That amp is still a favorite. Some of my early work with tulip poplar but that piece had some spalting that I tried to match with inlaid ebony and ebony splines. I still have the associated meter box, in it I attempted to wrap the meters with ebony a bit, just the opposite of the dual pots. I also used tiger maple top and bottom on the meter box. Often I will pick up a board and know what the amp will be, it is a simple process most of the time.
> 
> 
> .
> ...



Oh fine. _Just_ fine.  I invented Tiger maple, so what do *I* get for a chassis?  Balsa.  Or is it masonite?  Harrumph.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> That amp is still a favorite. Some of my early work with tulip poplar but that piece had some spalting that I tried to match with inlaid ebony and ebony splines. I still have the associated meter box, in it I attempted to wrap the meters with ebony a bit, just the opposite of the dual pots. I also used tiger maple top and bottom on the meter box. Often I will pick up a board and know what the amp will be, it is a simple process most of the time.
> 
> 
> .
> ...



In the top pic, is that a pair of #76?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 8, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Oh fine. _Just_ fine.  I invented Tiger maple, so what do *I* get for a chassis?  Balsa.  Or is it masonite?  Harrumph.


I overspent on yours, it is double wall cardboard, I just could not get the single wall to support the weight. I believe you invented the sideways amp, I believe park rangers are paid to keep you away from trees. As I recall you borrowed my idea for mini shelves and had the dumb luck to buy some tiger maple to complete your nefarious plan.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> In the top pic, is that a pair of #76?


I want to say those are early Sylvania 6j5's in the ST style.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I want to say those are early Sylvania 6j5's in the ST style.



Well one might consider the #76 to be a predecessor.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I overspent on yours, it is double wall cardboard, I just could not get the single wall to support the weight. I believe you invented the sideways amp, I believe park rangers are paid to keep you away from trees.



Everyone knows Amazon boxes are single wall.  Even without opening it up ('cause I promised not to) I can tell. You must have used a lot of glue.   

But just wait until I finish the new chassis out of virgin unobtanium.  With flashing LED's.  And a fountain.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Everyone knows Amazon boxes are single wall.  Even without opening it up ('cause I promised not to) I can tell. You must have used a lot of glue.
> 
> But just wait until I finish the new chassis out of virgin unobtanium.  With flashing LED's.  And a fountain.


Yikes are you really going for trailer park chic? My hat is off to you, well it would be if I were wearing one, just pretend dammit.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Yikes are you really going for trailer park chic? My hat is off to you, well it would be if I were wearing one, just pretend dammit.



Oh please.  The current (and PC) nomenclature is Relocatable Domicile Estates.  I *did* take the wheels off as they were creating some weird resonance with the Bifrost 2.  Go figure.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> Well one might consider the #76 to be a predecessor.


I am sure you are right, I am gaining a lot of respect for your tube knowledge.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I overspent on yours, it is double wall cardboard, I just could not get the single wall to support the weight. I believe you invented the sideways amp, I believe park rangers are paid to keep you away from trees. As I recall you borrowed my idea for mini shelves and had the dumb luck to buy some tiger maple to complete your nefarious plan.



Maybe you could up the quality a bit and make his amp out of strand board?


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> As I recall you borrowed my idea for mini shelves and had the dumb luck to buy some tiger maple to complete your nefarious plan.



Your memory is failing.  I didn't borrow your idea, I flat out stole it.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> Maybe you could up the quality a bit and make his amp out of strand board?


I gifted the man an amp figuring it would be easier than him "helping" with it and it was still like playing cards with your cousins kids. Sometimes there are dark alleys you should not enter.


----------



## lycos (Dec 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Rare to find (in todays market) a Chatham *bottom getter *5998






For my personal taste, I enjoy top getter better than bottom getter.
I found 5998 top getter is warmer but muddier mids and less detailed.

5998 bottom getter has excellent and more enjoyable mids than WE421A, on par in details but less warm and less 3D/musical.


----------



## Paladin79

lycos said:


> I think it sounds better than the top getter.
> I found 5998 top getter is warmer but muddier mids and less detailed.
> 
> 5998 bottom getter has excellent mids, even better than WE421A, equivalent in details but less warm and less 3D/musical.


I will have to dig some out tomorrow for another listen. I am more concerned with high mids and highs. I have trouble with tubes slowing down the abilities of a driver but that is just me.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 8, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I gifted the man an amp figuring it would be easier than him "helping" with it and it was still like playing cards with your cousins kids. Sometimes there are dark alleys you should not enter.



This is getting totally out of hand.  All I did was send you the sockets I wanted, a couple of the caps, a few resistors, some uber wire, an IEC socket, and requested a certain orientation of the top plate layout.  Sheeez Lou-friggin'-ise. And even though the 6SN7 socket is 0.02 millimeters further left than I would have preferred, did you *ever* hear me complain about it?  No. Not even once. I'd never be anywhere near _that_ picky about things.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This is getting totally out of hand.  All I did was send you the sockets I wanted, a couple of the caps, a few resistors, some uber wire, an IEC socket, and requested a certain orientation of the top plate layout.  Sheeez Lou-friggin'-ise. And even though the 6SN7 socket is 0.02 millimeters further left than I would have preferred, did you *ever* hear me complain about it?  No. Not even once. I'd never be anywhere near that picky about things.


I even used Duke blue in the copper patina like you wanted, but I just could not win! 

Getting back to this thread, if 6as7g tubes consist of RCA or Chatham style tubes. Just how many tubes are out there for a comparison. Add equivalents, 6080's, 7236's etc. Russian variations maybe.


----------



## Velozity

lycos said:


> I think it sounds better than the top getter.





Noooo, not again....lol


----------



## JKDJedi

Velozity said:


> Noooo, not again....lol


@attmci started all this... 😏


----------



## lycos (Dec 9, 2020)

Velozity said:


> Noooo, not again....lol



Sorry...   .
Added in my prev post that this is based on my personal taste, gears and musical taste.


----------



## maxpudding

Double getters 5998's are the best


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 9, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I even used Duke blue in the copper patina like you wanted, but I just could not win!
> 
> Getting back to this thread, if 6as7g tubes consist of RCA or Chatham style tubes. Just how many tubes are out there for a comparison. Add equivalents, 6080's, 7236's etc. Russian variations maybe.



OP has a few listed.  

6*H*13C same as 6*N*13C?  ECC230? 6N5C? All these point to the Winged "C"


----------



## therremans




----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


>


The getter type and placement helps pinpoint those hard to date tubes, and who manufactured that said tube (despite what's written on the base)..


----------



## maxpudding

therremans said:


>



The best piece of disclaimer would be “YMMV” lol


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 9, 2020)

lycos said:


> Sorry...   .
> Added in my prev post that this is based on my personal taste, gears and musical taste.


I am pretty booked up right now and I would not want to ship outside the continental US but in the spring I could set up a tube challenge. Five tubes, concealed in PVC. One bottom getter Chatham if that is a favorite tube for some of you guys, and the other four tubes of my choosing. HeadFi probably frowns on any sort of money wagering but no one ever said anything about Bill and I betting a steak dinner and bottle of wine but that was eight tubes.
With five tubes you have a 20% chance of guessing that particular tube so I would want odds. Anyone who guesses right could get say a bottle of bourbon or scotch with a top price of $50 sent by PayPal. If you do not choose the correct tube you love and can hear such differences in,  I would get the cash equivalent of a bottle of Camus XO cognac, or The Balvenie 21 year old port cask scotch. I would let @bcowen know the tubes inside each casing before I send out the tubes so there is no doubt it is on the up and up. I would be going through some personal expense and risk in doing this and I would only use 6as7s and 6080's or such as the other four tubes because I would want the gains to match.
Naturally I do not want people conferring about the tubes so once you listen, you send your answer to Bill and he holds all of them till those interested complete the testing. It is unfair to give instant feedback and the next person in line knows that number 3 is not the correct answer. I would pay shipping to the first person and whoever receives the tubes pays shipping to the next.

This should certainly be easy for anyone who loves that particular tube and knows when they listen the bottom getter sounds better, and Chatham beats say an RCA or Svetlana or whatever tubes I happen to use.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 9, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Your memory is failing.  I didn't borrow your idea, I flat out stole it.


I was being kind. 

I may be requesting your involvement in a tube challenge, you will be a judge so therefore you are eliminated from participating cause I know if anyone can do this, it is you lol.

Oh and most likely I would send you photos of each tube being sealed and the number assigned to it.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I was being kind.
> 
> I may be requesting your involvement in a tube challenge, you will be a judge so therefore you are eliminated from participating cause I know if anyone can do this, it is you lol.
> 
> Oh and most likely I would send you photos of each tube being sealed and the number assigned to it.



Damn.  Lose one little old challenge and get permanently banned from participating again.  Harumph.    

Seriously I'd be happy to assist as a non-participating tabulator.  But just a word of advice to any potential participants:  a truly blind test like this is harder than it may appear on the surface.  Certainly not impossible if you have a really good handle on sonic differences, but if you're thinking it's a walk in the park, you best be thinking a park about the size of Australia,  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Damn.  Lose one little old challenge and get permanently banned from participating again.  Harumph.
> 
> Seriously I'd be happy to assist as a non-participating tabulator.  But just a word of advice to any potential participants:  a truly blind test like this is harder than it may appear on the surface.  Certainly not impossible if you have a really good handle on sonic differences, but if you're thinking it's a walk in the park, you best be thinking a park about the size of Australia,  LOL!


Obviously if bottom getters sound better than top within the same brand this should be simple.    Mix in lesser brands and it just gets easier an easier lol. I do believe though I will stick with the Balvenie as my choice should I win, just to keep things simple.

Bill and Jedi know I can set this up, and any tampering with the tubes would be obvious.


----------



## Ripper2860

I don't really worry much about having top or bottom getter versions because one may sound better.  I thoroughly listen to each tube with my amp right-side-up or upside-down and make the determination.  I then mark the tube with an arrow indicating which amp orientation sounds best. It involves a bit of time and effort, but well worth it as it potentially cut my tube inventory needs in 1/2.  BTW -- Determining left-hand vs right-hand side-getter tubes is a bit easier.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't really worry much about having top or bottom getter versions because one may sound better.  I thoroughly listen to each tube with my amp right-side-up or upside-down and make the determination.  I then mark the tube with an arrow indicating which amp orientation sounds best. It involves a bit of time and effort, but well worth it as it potentially cut my tube inventory needs in 1/2.  BTW -- Determining left-hand vs right-hand side-getter tubes is a bit easier.



If you can easily rotate your amp 180 degrees, then your interconnects are way too long.  Just sayin'.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah, but I make up for that by using a shorter HP cable.  

Now that I think about it, I need to add another step to my side getter testing protocol -- top-left-hand-side vs top-right-hand side vs bottom-left-hand side vs bottom-right-hand side.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, but I make up for that by using a shorter HP cable.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I need to add another step to my side getter testing protocol -- top-left-hand-side vs top-right-hand side vs bottom-left-hand side vs bottom-right-hand side.



So how do you handle dual getter tubes?  Just toss everything in the clothes dryer while you listen?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 9, 2020)

Dual getters just seem redundant.  I just set them aside w/o listening as I have not been able to wrap my mind around those yet.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I am pretty booked up right now and I would not want to ship outside the continental US but in the spring I could set up a tube challenge. Five tubes, concealed in PVC. One bottom getter Chatham if that is a favorite tube for some of you guys, and the other four tubes of my choosing. HeadFi probably frowns on any sort of money wagering but no one ever said anything about Bill and I betting a steak dinner and bottle of wine but that was eight tubes.
> With five tubes you have a 20% chance of guessing that particular tube so I would want odds. Anyone who guesses right could get say a bottle of bourbon or scotch with a top price of $50 sent by PayPal. If you do not choose the correct tube you love and can hear such differences in,  I would get the cash equivalent of a bottle of Camus XO cognac, or The Balvenie 21 year old port cask scotch. I would let @bcowen know the tubes inside each casing before I send out the tubes so there is no doubt it is on the up and up. I would be going through some personal expense and risk in doing this and I would only use 6as7s and 6080's or such as the other four tubes because I would want the gains to match.
> Naturally I do not want people conferring about the tubes so once you listen, you send your answer to Bill and he holds all of them till those interested complete the testing. It is unfair to give instant feedback and the next person in line knows that number 3 is not the correct answer. I would pay shipping to the first person and whoever receives the tubes pays shipping to the next.
> 
> This should certainly be easy for anyone who loves that particular tube and knows when they listen the bottom getter sounds better, and Chatham beats say an RCA or Svetlana or whatever tubes I happen to use.



This sounds like a lot of fun.    But with my old worn-out ears, there's no way I could guess right.  lol. 

And I suspect this challenge is designed for those with amps that use only one output tube? Otherwise, you would have to send two of each.

But for sure, I will be curious to learn which tubes you send and if anyone guesses correctly.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> This sounds like a lot of fun.    But with my old worn-out ears, there's no way I could guess right.  lol.
> 
> And I suspect this challenge is designed for those with amps that use only one output tube? Otherwise, you would have to send two of each.
> 
> But for sure, I will be curious to learn which tubes you send and if anyone guesses correctly.



Yeah it would be tough to send two but, just think of someone having his own bottom getter Chatham to compare to the tubes I send. That should increase their odds even more!!!😃


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> @attmci started all this... 😏


Fake news!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I am pretty booked up right now and I would not want to ship outside the continental US but in the spring I could set up a tube challenge. Five tubes, concealed in PVC. One bottom getter Chatham if that is a favorite tube for some of you guys, and the other four tubes of my choosing. HeadFi probably frowns on any sort of money wagering but no one ever said anything about Bill and I betting a steak dinner and bottle of wine but that was eight tubes.
> With five tubes you have a 20% chance of guessing that particular tube so I would want odds. Anyone who guesses right could get say a bottle of bourbon or scotch with a top price of $50 sent by PayPal. If you do not choose the correct tube you love and can hear such differences in,  I would get the cash equivalent of a bottle of Camus XO cognac, or The Balvenie 21 year old port cask scotch. I would let @bcowen know the tubes inside each casing before I send out the tubes so there is no doubt it is on the up and up. I would be going through some personal expense and risk in doing this and I would only use 6as7s and 6080's or such as the other four tubes because I would want the gains to match.
> Naturally I do not want people conferring about the tubes so once you listen, you send your answer to Bill and he holds all of them till those interested complete the testing. It is unfair to give instant feedback and the next person in line knows that number 3 is not the correct answer. I would pay shipping to the first person and whoever receives the tubes pays shipping to the next.
> 
> This should certainly be easy for anyone who loves that particular tube and knows when they listen the bottom getter sounds better, and Chatham beats say an RCA or Svetlana or whatever tubes I happen to use.


Not to make light of the challenge, but you are making it somewhat easy.  When  you plug in the 5998 everything gets about 15% louder so it will be a dead giveaway from the RCA and Svetlana.  Furthermore, the Svetlana changes lyrics to Russian, so that's obvious, too.

I think a better challenge would be do the same tube but only specify bottom vs. top getter.


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 9, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Not to make light of the challenge, but you are making it somewhat easy.  When  you plug in the 5998 everything gets about 15% louder so it will be a dead giveaway from the RCA and Svetlana.  Furthermore, the Svetlana changes lyrics to Russian, so that's obvious, too.
> 
> I think a better challenge would be do the same tube but only specify bottom vs. top getter.


I have not checked gain on tubes listed, I deal with so many tubes I generally look such things up as needed, Ithought to myself in my posting that  a 7236 would not work well. I am not exactly new at this type of thing so all tubes will have some similar characteristics.    In the case of the challenge with Bill, I may well have spent $1,000 to win a $100 dinner if you include a bit of my time.

My statement:    I would only use 6as7s and 6080's or such as the other four tubes because I would want the gains to match.

I  honestly do not remember if both of those are medium gain tubes. Now part of it is folks saying they can hear this or that in the bottom getter Chatham so even if I were to use bottom getter RCA's or Svetlana's, certainly they would be inferior. The challenge is to pick out what they believe is the bottom getter Chatham and there will only be one of them included.

I also try to be fair, in Bill's case I included some very good 6sn7's to contrast the GE tube he was to select.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Damn.  Lose one little old challenge and get permanently banned from participating again.  Harumph.
> 
> Seriously I'd be happy to assist as a non-participating tabulator.  But just a word of advice to any potential participants:  a truly blind test like this is harder than it may appear on the surface.  Certainly not impossible if you have a really good handle on sonic differences, but if you're thinking it's a walk in the park, you best be thinking a park about the size of Australia,  LOL!


This is true, I had an idea that I was gonna come out like a champ before I ever received anything (from @Paladin79 ) and when the tubes arrived and the listening session  began...  terror ensued.. oh my God.. what will my peers think if I pick the weakest tube!! LOL!! It was a lot of fun though. I literally had to shut my eyes and go in Zen mode to hear what I was hearing. Since I'm already feeling the pressure here, I'll have to concede that the double getter/bottom thing could very well be a placebo effect and it's only pointed towards said tube to it's kind and not extended as a whole towards ALL 6as7g tubes, although the GEC 6AS7g is a bottom getter tube.   (joking) Am I?


----------



## Velozity

Paladin79 said:


> I have not checked gain on tubes listed, I deal with so many tubes I generally look such things up as needed, Ithought to myself in my posting that  a 7236 would not work well. I am not exactly new at this type of thing so all tubes will have some similar characteristics.    In the case of the challenge with Bill, I may well have spent $1,000 to win a $100 dinner if you include a bit of my time.
> 
> My statement:    I would only use 6as7s and 6080's or such as the other four tubes because I would want the gains to match.
> 
> ...




This could work, but I agree with @PsilocybinCube I would be more interested in a limited "getter" shootout.  One bottom getter Chatham vs. 4 top getters, and one bottom getter RCA vs. 4 top getters.  Same could be done with 5998 if there are enough around.  Might be difficult to gather enough top getter tubes for this but if a few of us lend a tube maybe it could work.  Though my GOTL uses dual power tubes so I couldn't participate anyway.  Unless you're going to send an _Incubus Elegan_ on tour...


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> This is true, I had an idea that I was gonna come out like a champ before I ever received anything (from @Paladin79 ) and when the tubes arrived and the listening session  began...  terror ensued.. oh my God.. what will my peers think if I pick the weakest tube!! LOL!! It was a lot of fun though. I literally had to shut my eyes and go in Zen mode to hear what I was hearing. Since I'm already feeling the pressure here, I'll have to concede that the double getter/bottom thing could very well be a placebo effect and it's only pointed towards said tube to it's kind and not extended as a whole towards ALL 6as7g tubes, although the GEC 6AS7g is a bottom getter tube.   (joking) Am I?


There were no weak tubes in what I sent you, most of those had gone to Jason at Schiit and I sure was not going to include crappy tubes in his. As I recall you chose the grey glass RCA to keep, that was a favorite of many.

I doubt I would include any tube as pricey as a GEC but only Bill will know, provided anyone feels froggy and decides to leap.


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 9, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> There were no weak tubes in what I sent you, most of those had gone to Jason at Schiit and I sure was not going to include crappy tubes in his. As I recall you chose the grey glass RCA to keep, that was a favorite of many.
> 
> I doubt I would include any tube as pricey as a GEC but only Bill will know, provided anyone feels froggy and decides to leap.


Oh hell no... I did not choose the RCA grey Glass my friend..


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> Oh hell no... I did not choose the RCA grey Glass my friend..


My memory is awful at times, that is a great tube. I run some in my Freya plus.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Fake news!


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Oh hell no... I did not choose the RCA grey Glass my friend..



Hmmmmmm....I could've sworn you told me this was your absolute most favorite of the group:


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 9, 2020)

Velozity said:


> This could work, but I agree with @PsilocybinCube I would be more interested in a limited "getter" shootout.  One bottom getter Chatham vs. 4 top getters, and one bottom getter RCA vs. 4 top getters.  Same could be done with 5998 if there are enough around.  Might be difficult to gather enough top getter tubes for this but if a few of us lend a tube maybe it could work.  Though my GOTL uses dual power tubes so I couldn't participate anyway.  Unless you're going to send an _Incubus Elegan_ on tour...



I will give it some thought and I did have plans to send a sample Incubus Elegan around in the spring. If I can buy more solid plate Melz I may send one of those along. It is my favorite 6sn7 equivalent. This is a very rare tube, like a 1578 but no holes in the plates. My only warning on the Incubus is thus far, everyone who heard it wanted one other than one guy who is saving up. It is only about 50 people though, each amp is one of a kind and it takes me a while to build them.

Having dual power tubes, if they are 6as7g should not matter IMHO, it could be an advantage but what do I know?


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I have not checked gain on tubes listed, I deal with so many tubes I generally look such things up as needed, Ithought to myself in my posting that  a 7236 would not work well. I am not exactly new at this type of thing so all tubes will have some similar characteristics.    In the case of the challenge with Bill, I may well have spent $1,000 to win a $100 dinner if you include a bit of my time.
> 
> My statement:    I would only use 6as7s and 6080's or such as the other four tubes because I would want the gains to match.
> 
> ...



Since a 6AS7 and a 5998 have different amplification factors, 2 for the 6AS7G and 5.5 for the 5998, I think it would be best to send only 5998s: One bottom getter, one top getter and one with both a top and bottom getter, and also a WE421A. IMHO, this would be a very interesting challenge.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Hmmmmmm....I could've sworn you told me this was your absolute most favorite of the group:


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> Since a 6AS7 and a 5998 have different amplification factors, 2 for the 6AS7G and 5.5 for the 5998, I think it would be best to send only 5998s: One bottom getter, one top getter and one with both a top and bottom getter, and also a WE421A. IMHO, this would be a very interesting challenge.


I was thinking more of 6as7g and 6080, but I am in the middle of a few things and did not have a chance to check gain. I am loaning out some match pairs of tubes to a gentleman on here and I need to get them boxed up lol.


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


>


Jedi keeps thanking me for the Marconi I sent him, I do not mind the PM's but this is getting redundant.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Jedi keeps thanking me for the Marconi I sent him, I do not mind the PM's but this is getting redundant.


LOL!!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I have not checked gain on tubes listed, I deal with so many tubes I generally look such things up as needed, Ithought to myself in my posting that  a 7236 would not work well. I am not exactly new at this type of thing so all tubes will have some similar characteristics.    In the case of the challenge with Bill, I may well have spent $1,000 to win a $100 dinner if you include a bit of my time.
> 
> My statement:    I would only use 6as7s and 6080's or such as the other four tubes because I would want the gains to match.
> 
> ...



Well damn.  As someone who owns a Chatham 6as7g with two bottom getters, I don't know that I could tell the difference there...I thought the difference in gain via the 5998 was my ace in the hole.  I do think I could blind test the difference on the RCA as that is pretty pronounced IMO.

All Svetlana Winged C tubes are bottom getters, right?  With the UFOs?


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 9, 2020)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well damn.  As someone who owns a Chatham 6as7g with two bottom getters, I don't know that I could tell the difference there...I thought the difference in gain via the 5998 was my ace in the hole.  I do think I could blind test the difference on the RCA as that is pretty pronounced IMO.
> 
> All Svetlana Winged C tubes are bottom getters, right?  With the UFOs?



There is a military version with different getter holders, I happen to own one. Bottom shields as well.

All I know of are bottom getters. Here are the bottom getter holders on a 59 Svetlana, I also happened across a bottom getter Chatham 6as7g I own Jan version. I thought I might have to buy one for the tube challenge but nope lol.

My 55 Military version has identical getter holders but they are not as easy to see with the bottom shields being there.


.


----------



## GarageBoy (Dec 9, 2020)

*I just bought this tung sol 6080 and the getter is flaky? Also popped a few times on start up, but I cleaned the pins and it seems to be okay now, but is it signs of a failing tube? First pop scared the life out of me - I thought I damaged my HD600s*


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> There is a military version with different getter holders, I happen to own one. Bottom shields as well.
> 
> All I know of are bottom getters.


why not top? 🤔 (😂😂)


GarageBoy said:


> *I just bought this tung sol 6080 and the getter is flaky? Also popped a few times on start up, but I cleaned the pins and it seems to be okay now, but is it signs of a failing tube? First pop scared the life out of me - I thought I damaged my HD600s*


Amp is adjusting to the new tube, should be good, just let the tube discharge fully (couple minutes) before pulling them out.


----------



## therremans

GarageBoy said:


> *I just bought this tung sol 6080 and the getter is flaky? Also popped a few times on start up, but I cleaned the pins and it seems to be okay now, but is it signs of a failing tube? First pop scared the life out of me - I thought I damaged my HD600s*


The flashing is flaking, is it running at abnormally high temperatures? Popping isn’t good. I would let it run without the headphones plugged in for awhile. Did the seller include test results?


----------



## GarageBoy

therremans said:


> The flashing is flaking, is it running at abnormally high temperatures? Popping isn’t good. I would let it run without the headphones plugged in for awhile. Did the seller include test results?


Nope, it was untested and I took a chance...
It's running fine now, after it was popping, I recleaned the pins, and tested it with cheap throwaway headphones - still a bit worried. I've had many 6080s pass through my hands, and I've never seen the flashing flake like that


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> There is a military version with different getter holders, I happen to own one. Bottom shields as well.
> 
> All I know of are bottom getters. Here are the bottom getter holders on a 59 Svetlana, I also happened across a bottom getter Chatham 6as7g I own Jan version. I thought I might have to buy one for the tube challenge but nope lol.
> 
> ...



Similarly, I have two Svetlana 6N5S, one 1953 and one 1955, both with bottom shields and bottom getter holders (similar, but slightly different from the more recent "flying saucers".). And I have another two 6N5S, one 1957 and one 1958, no bottom shields, but the same bottom getters as the earlier ones. Has anyone seen a 6N5S with top getter holders?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> why not top? 🤔 (😂😂)
> 
> They are bottom because that was the technology at the time purchased from RCA I would think. Later on RCA went to top getters but the Russians did not.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> Similarly, I have two Svetlana 6N5S, one 1953 and one 1955, both with bottom shields and bottom getter holders (similar, but slightly different from the more recent "flying saucers".). And I have another two 6N5S, one 1957 and one 1958, no bottom shields, but the same bottom getters as the earlier ones. Has anyone seen a 6N5S with top getter holders?


I have not seen a top getter on one but then I have tubes I have not examined yet lol. I just remembered I had some in a drawer in my shop and found the Chatham there.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I have not seen a top getter on one but then I have tubes I have not examined yet lol. I just remembered I had some in a drawer in my shop and found the Chatham there.


I thought @bcowen was bad..jesus christ.. got tubes?


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> I thought @bcowen was bad..jesus christ.. got tubes?


I am not up to 2,000 quite yet but I have a few. I just loaned out five matched pairs and got a very nice mixture of beers as a thank you.    A gentleman who is on this site, @sqitis. Quite an impressive guy but then I hang around with Cowen, everything is relative.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I have not seen a top getter on one but then I have tubes I have not examined yet lol. I just remembered I had some in a drawer in my shop and found the Chatham there.



Hoarder.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 9, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> I am up to 2,000 (or so) but I don't know where half of them are. Probably stuffed in a drawer somewhere, or in a box buried in the back of the attic I haven't ventured close to in 25 years, likely a few tubs under the sink, and probably a bin or two under Finnegan's litter box.
> 
> And that's just the GE's.



Here....fixed this for you ^^^^^^


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Here....fixed this for you ^^^^^^


L M F A O.. HAHAHHAHHA !! Classic..


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Here....fixed this for you ^^^^^^


LMAO. Hey man does not live by tubes alone, after watching The Queens Gambit I may get back into the game.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> LMAO. Hey man does not live by tubes alone...



What?!?   Where'd you read _that_?  Let me guess...the internet?


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I will give it some thought and I did have plans to send a sample Incubus Elegan around in the spring. If I can buy more solid plate Melz I may send one of those along. It is my favorite 6sn7 equivalent. This is a very rare tube, like a 1578 but no holes in the plates. My only warning on the Incubus is thus far, everyone who heard it wanted one other than one guy who is saving up. It is only about 50 people though, each amp is one of a kind and it takes me a while to build them.
> 
> Having dual power tubes, if they are 6as7g should not matter IMHO, it could be an advantage but what do I know?


Only for low impedance headphones,( trying to imagine an incubus with dual output tubes right now) but as is...plenty of power. Not sure why you say it's a driver specific amp, I pick up on the output tubes the same. I'm back to work tomorrow..sigh, meaning I'm here only once every other hour..   And if not, it was a pleasure mingling with you all, thanks for the entertainment!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 9, 2020)

JKDJedi said:


> Only for low impedance headphones,( trying to imagine an incubus with dual output tubes right now) but as is...plenty of power. Not sure why you say it's a driver specific amp, I pick up on the output tubes the same. I'm back to work tomorrow..sigh, meaning I'm here only once every other hour..   And if not, it was a pleasure mingling with you all, thanks for the entertainment!


Normally driver tubes cause greater differences to be heard but, so many have told me they heard greater power tube differences as well in the Incubus I can probably accept it.
I had a lot of tubes for other amps but I must say the bottom getter Chatham does sound good in the Incubus, I need to listen to it more.

It is a driver specific amp because it was made for 6sn7 testing for the most part, that was my goal. Along the way folks have said it does wonders letting them hear power tubes but to be honest, my focus was in other areas. 

I am not sure what you are saying about lower impedance headphones, some use the Incubus with headphones down to 18 ohms, I do not personally. 32 ohms up, are fine for me but there is a drop in power till you get to about 50 ohms. You have a dual headphone amp and if you plug dissimilar impedances the result is lower than the lowest impedance. It is late and you are making me think too much lol.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Normally driver tubes cause greater differences to be heard but, so many have told me they heard greater power tube differences as well in the Incubus I can probably accept it....


FWIW in Feliks Elise, power tube rolls can make as much or greater difference than driver rolls. I know that's contrary to general wisdom but as you point out seems quite amp. dependent.


----------



## thecrow

therremans said:


>


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> FWIW in Feliks Elise, power tube rolls can make as much or greater difference than driver rolls. I know that's contrary to general wisdom but as you point out seems quite amp. dependent.


Some of this gets back to why I designed my amp, I built four identical and donated them for a blind listen of 6sn7 equivalent tubes. The amp was designed to be as accurate as I could get it for those driver tubes. Along the way people who heard it wanted one and convinced me it might be more than a test device. It will show flaws in 6sn7 equivalents IMHO.
The power tube needed to be a constant and a tube I could find in quantity so Svetlana and RCA were the tubes of choice. As far as the driver tube in those I sold, oftentimes I would use Fotons from the 50's, once again availability. Folks like Jason at Schiit need to find larger quantities so they used newly made Russian Tung Sols and JJ tubes, I believe early on he used a few Fotons as well.
As I said my focus was on the 6sn7, later if we do a tube challenge on power tubes, I might use 50's Fotons because they match up quite well with each other. Power tubes do vary a lot in gain and we would adjust for that so all tubes are at an equal level. In the tube challenge I mentioned 6as7g's and 6080's because I believe both of them to be low gain. Because power tubes can be low, medium, and high gain that can cause some differences in perception as you plug them in. I remove a 5998 and put in a Chatham 6as7 the power level is quite different. In our blind tests a couple audio engineers make sure everything is on the same level. You are a bright guy and know this already of course and most likely adjust accordingly. I would think if you use a rather neutral sounding driver tube you would hear more difference in a power tube swap. Put a 1578 from the 80's in there and the mids would take over lol. A 1963 Melz 1578 is so balanced, I could see it allowing different power tubes a better chance to shine. 

 In my home setup I can monitor my audio signal at several points just to be sure levels stay pretty constant. VU meters. Not very accurate you say? They showed me a difference between two identical tubes after I ran one for 100 hours.  

Oh and to be accurate, I was offered some fairly high sums for my amps and to be fair I did include some 5998's and Melz 1578's on occasion, as well as other items I built.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Oh fine. _Just_ fine.  I invented Tiger maple, so what do *I* get for a chassis?  Balsa.  Or is it masonite?  Harrumph.



I believe this is @bcowen with his tiger named Maple.


----------



## LoryWiv (Dec 10, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Some of this gets back to why I designed my amp, I built four identical and donated them for a blind listen of 6sn7 equivalent tubes. The amp was designed to be as accurate as I could get it for those driver tubes. Along the way people who heard it wanted one and convinced me it might be more than a test device. It will show flaws in 6sn7 equivalents IMHO.
> The power tube needed to be a constant and a tube I could find in quantity so Svetlana and RCA were the tubes of choice. As far as the driver tube in those I sold, oftentimes I would use Fotons from the 50's, once again availability. Folks like Jason at Schiit need to find larger quantities so they used newly made Russian Tung Sols and JJ tubes, I believe early on he used a few Fotons as well.
> As I said my focus was on the 6sn7, later if we do a tube challenge on power tubes, I might use 50's Fotons because they match up quite well with each other. Power tubes do vary a lot in gain and we would adjust for that so all tubes are at an equal level. In the tube challenge I mentioned 6as7g's and 6080's because I believe both of them to be low gain. Because power tubes can be low, medium, and high gain that can cause some differences in perception as you plug them in. I remove a 5998 and put in a Chatham 6as7 the power level is quite different. In our blind tests a couple audio engineers make sure everything is on the same level. You are a bright guy and know this already of course and most likely adjust accordingly. I would think if you use a rather neutral sounding driver tube you would hear more difference in a power tube swap. Put a 1578 from the 80's in there and the mids would take over lol. A 1963 Melz 1578 is so balanced, I could see it allowing different power tubes a better chance to shine.
> 
> ...


Very well stated and helpful, thanks @Palladin. Last evening I swapped Tung Sol 6550 for Sylvania Gold Brand 6550 powers while leaving Sylvania VT-231 drivers in place. The difference was immediately apparent, more so after the Sylvie's had run in (re-biased?) for an hour or so. The TS's were excellent in many respect but mids had a slightly wood-y quality and timbre of massed strings in orchestral, even chamber music was a bit unnatural. Sylvie 6550 tonality for strings was far more appealing (I'd say realistic but of course wasn't there for the recording session so that would be a bit arrogant of me) BUT there were a few trade-offs in other areas. Conclusion: Even output tubes of same specs / gain can bring differences, and some amps. may reveal them more than others.

My weekend project will be to roll in some different drivers to look for best pairing with the Sylvie 6550, and no surprise, I am most excited to try the '63 Melz from our good friend @Paladin79. Now it's back to work for me!!!  Countdown to the weekend!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 10, 2020)

LoryWiv said:


> Very well stated and helpful, thanks @Palladin. Last evening I swapped Tung Sol 6550 for Sylvania Gold Brand 6550 powers while leaving Sylvania VT-231 drivers in place. The difference was immediately apparent, more so after the Sylvie's had run in (re-biased?) for an hour or so. The TS's were excellent in many respect but mids had a slightly wood-y quality and timbre of massed strings in orchestral, even chamber music was a bit unnatural. Sylvie 6550 tonality for strings was far more appealing (I'd say realistic but of course wasn't there for the recording session so that would be a bit arrogant of me) BUT there were a few trade-offs in other areas. Conclusion: Even output tubes of same specs / gain can bring differences, and some amps. may reveal them more than others.
> 
> My weekend project will be to roll in some different drivers to look for best pairing with the Sylvie 6550, and no surprise, I am most excited to try the '63 Melz from our good friend @Paladin79. Now it's back to work for me!!!  Countdown to the weekend!


One of these days I will try to send you an Incubus to compare with the Elise. Just try to be kind and do not bad mouth it too much, I have a pretty fragile ego. 

Also the short answer on my amp and the power tubes, I just never paid a lot of attention to those tubes lol. Whatever comes out of the driver goes pretty directly into the power tube. The input and output circuitry can make or break an amp. I will be trying a lot of different power tubes though just in case anyone wants to try the challenge. Getting a tube in the mail and knowing it is a specific brand that people rave about, and knowing you just paid $150 or whatever gives one an expectation. Identifying that same tube blind is not so easy.


----------



## JKDJedi

Rolling the metal plated Bendix . (yes metal)


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Rolling the metal plated Bendix . (yes metal)



Cheapskate.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Cheapskate.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


>



Go big or go home, and since I'm already home my only choice is to go big.   @therremans has stacked like 731 Vishay 10 uF caps in his Darkvoice to replace the 6 stock caps. I'm going for one big honkin' one. By my measurements it should fit, but if I correctly remember the adage of measure once, cut twice I should be OK.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Go big or go home, and since I'm already home my only choice is to go big.   @therremans has stacked like 731 Vishay 10 uF caps in his Darkvoice to replace the 6 stock caps. I'm going for one big honkin' one. By my measurements it should fit, but if I correctly remember the adage of measure once, cut twice I should be OK.


Someone needs to keep an eye on you, you have way too much time on your hands.😃


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Someone needs to keep an eye on you, you have way too much time on your hands.😃



Yeah, I know.  But going back to a job just sounds so, so, so....unappealing right now.  LOL!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I know.  But going back to a job just sounds so, so, so....unappealing right now.  LOL!


Well pack up the Cary Superamp and send it to me, with an assortment of tubes of course. I have an open slot in my audio rack that is driving me crazy! That will keep you busy for an hour.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well pack up the Cary Superamp and send it to me, with an assortment of tubes of course. I have an open slot in my audio rack that is driving me crazy! That will keep you busy for an hour.



Well I haven't gotten around to re-capping it yet.  You know, 'cause I'm super busy and all.  Want me to send those along so you can put them in for me?  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 10, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Well I haven't gotten around to re-capping it yet.  You know, 'cause I'm super busy and all.  Want me to send those along so you can put them in for me?  LOL!!


You know I would recap it for you, for the life of me I have yet to figure out how you manage to solder with your feet like that. I promise to have the amp back to you by next St. Swithins day, more or less.

Can I send you Finnegan so he can break some of your tubes for a while? I have to keep mine locked in a gun safe now, those I remember I own that is.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Go big or go home, and since I'm already home my only choice is to go big.   @therremans has stacked like 731 Vishay 10 uF caps in his Darkvoice to replace the 6 stock caps. I'm going for one big honkin' one. By my measurements it should fit, but if I correctly remember the adage of measure once, cut twice I should be OK.


your gonna twist your ankle trying to make that work. 😂


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> You know I would recap it for you, for the life of me I have yet to figure out how you manage to solder with your feet like that.



It's a talent I've acquired. My hands always seem to be busy typing witty retorts to your, um, posts.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> your gonna twist your ankle trying to make that work. 😂



Nothing involved that a good hammer can't fix.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> It's a talent I've acquired. My hands always seem to be busy typing witty retorts to your, um, posts.


Leave me alone, I am listening to a bottom getter Chatham, maybe Jedi was right, maybe.

Oh and instead of St.Swithin's day I would get your amp back to you by the Ides of July.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> ....Jedi was right, maybe.





You've been hittin' that bottle of scotch a wee bit hard, methinks.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You've been hittin' that bottle of scotch a wee bit hard, methinks.


LOL oh wait, I had a top getter Chatham 6080 in an Incubus, never mind. It is still a Chatham, only shorter.5te4re4re4re4re4re4re4re4re4re4re4re4rwq.

Finnegan is typing, he is hoping I leave a tube out but I am wise to him.


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Go big or go home, and since I'm already home my only choice is to go big.   @therremans has stacked like 731 Vishay 10 uF caps in his Darkvoice to replace the 6 stock caps. I'm going for one big honkin' one. By my measurements it should fit, but if I correctly remember the adage of measure once, cut twice I should be OK.


Bill finds a mundorf that will fit the Darkvoice (by his measurements) *after* I order the Vishay’s.. But I have a feeling his amp may no longer have a bottom plate once these are installed.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Bill finds a mundorf that will fit the Darkvoice (by his measurements) *after* I order the Vishay’s.. But I have a feeling his amp may no longer have a bottom plate once these are installed.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> Bill finds a mundorf that will fit the Darkvoice (by his measurements) *after* I order the Vishay’s.. But I have a feeling his amp may no longer have a bottom plate once these are installed.


Being able to add larger capacitors caused me to put Bottlehead Cracks in larger cases. I had seen quite a few with parts sticking out the bottom.

It also got me into building cabinets for my designs. I may play around with a Darkvoice sometime just to see what improvements I can make, but the first thing will be getting it out of the existing cabinet and possibly making my own top plate. 

As I recall I am running a Tung Sol 5998 in the above Crack.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


>


Is that a two piece metal cabinet without a top plate?  I would consider gifting you a cabinet sometime, I may even have tiger maple. Top plate to match your Incubus perhaps?


----------



## JKDJedi (Dec 11, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> Being able to add larger capacitors caused me to put Bottlehead Cracks in larger cases. I had seen quite a few with parts sticking out the bottom.
> 
> It also got me into building cabinets for my designs. I may play around with a Darkvoice sometime just to see what improvements I can make, but the first thing will be getting it out of the existing cabinet and possibly making my own top plate.
> 
> As I recall I am running a Tung Sol 5998 in the above Crack.


 I told them about you...they wouldn't listen..  #mastercraftsmanship


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Is that a two piece metal cabinet without a top plate?  I would consider gifting you a cabinet sometime, I may even have tiger maple. Top plate to match your Incubus perhaps?



Thanks Tom.  You just made me drool all over my keyboard and now my laptop is shorted out.    

Guess I better start packing up the Super Amp.  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 11, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Thanks Tom.  You just made me drool all over my keyboard and now my laptop is shorted out.
> 
> Guess I better start packing up the Super Amp.  LOL!!


I missed out getting a Darkvoice from Drop for $200, I will watch out for one to experiment with. I hate to pay $280 when I know they can be had for a lot less lol. It looks like the cabinet slides together. Mounting things on the front and back is no problem and most likely I would replace the RCA jacks with some I prefer. I may have to make it so an internal pc board can slide into place under holes for the sockets but it can be done.  Mounting a transformer cover is simple enough and I have made boxes that slide together so I bet I can work this out. If anyone has a darkvoice with issues they want to sell that could help lol. I can easily spend a weekend building an amp cabinet not counting final finish or making a copper top plate. 21 year old Balvenie generally comes in a gift box and would fit nicely in a large box with an amp, just sayin.  

Tiger maple with rosewood splines might be doable. A current example:


.


----------



## Tom-s

An alternative to 6080's / 6AS7G; The Telefunken ED8000 single triode. Started looking for these last year. They're hard to source and you need two to replace a single 6080. From the datasheet they look very promising. With an internal resistance of only 220 Ohm and a transconductance of 16ma/V it's a perfect candidate for the OTL Bottlehead Crack. Beware you need to wire your own adapter (I used and rewired a CV4079 adapter for mine).

How does it sound? It's a typical Telefunken. Clean, clear; even from top to bottom; bringing out lots of details. Unfortunately they don't have the biggest of soundstage. Nor the most romantic sound. For me personally the GEC CV4079's get the preference. Pair ED8000 with a Telefunken ECC82 for a hard hitting bass but be warned for some sharp and sibilant high's. However they pair perfectly with slightly rolled off drivers.

Here's a pair pictured with Visseaux type 76 drivers.


----------



## bcowen

Tom-s said:


> An alternative to 6080's / 6AS7G; The Telefunken ED8000 single triode. Started looking for these last year. They're hard to source and you need two to replace a single 6080. From the datasheet they look very promising. With an internal resistance of only 220 Ohm and a transconductance of 16ma/V it's a perfect candidate for the OTL Bottlehead Crack. Beware you need to wire your own adapter (I used and rewired a CV4079 adapter for mine).
> 
> How does it sound? It's a typical Telefunken. Clean, clear; even from top to bottom; bringing out lots of details. Unfortunately they don't have the biggest of soundstage. Nor the most romantic sound. For me personally the GEC CV4079's get the preference. Pair ED8000 with a Telefunken ECC82 for a hard hitting bass but be warned for some sharp and sibilant high's. However they pair perfectly with slightly rolled off drivers.
> 
> Here's a pair pictured with Visseaux type 76 drivers.



I think you've nailed the Telefunken "house sound" quite eloquently and succinctly.  Now a 1950's manufacture Telefunken 6DJ8 (close to unobtanium these days) is one of my favorite tubes of all time (of that type), but most of the other Tele's I've listened to tend more toward a solid-state type character. Nothing at all wrong with that if it fits with the users components, ancillary tubes and preferences, but a "tubey" sound is not what you'll get with _most _Teles if that's what's desired.  I'm waiting on a pair of GEC 4079's to arrive from Langrex...pretty excited to hear them.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> I think you've nailed the Telefunken "house sound" quite eloquently and succinctly.  Now a 1950's manufacture Telefunken 6DJ8 (close to unobtanium these days) is one of my favorite tubes of all time (of that type), but most of the other Tele's I've listened to tend more toward a solid-state type character. Nothing at all wrong with that if it fits with the users components, ancillary tubes and preferences, but a "tubey" sound is not what you'll get with _most _Teles if that's what's desired.  I'm waiting on a pair of GEC 4079's to arrive from Langrex...pretty excited to hear them.


Nice, expanding possibilities. Do you need adapter and wire to anode cap or just socket adapter for 6AS7 slot?


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Nice, expanding possibilities. Do you need adapter and wire to anode cap or just socket adapter for 6AS7 slot?



Just the socket adapter (the cv4079 is  single triode tube) . No external anode cap on them though.


----------



## CADCAM

Does anyone here know if this CEI 6080 I bought  https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Excell...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
would be generally the same sounding as these CEI's https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6080-C...145743?hash=item56ef7d2d8f:g:nLoAAOSw3gJZJKFP

Really liked the sound of the CEI and wanted a backup..


----------



## gibosi (Dec 17, 2020)

CADCAM said:


> Does anyone here know if this CEI 6080 I bought  https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Excellent-CEU-6080-Tube-Tube-Test-123-119-TV-7/193712563289?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> would be generally the same sounding as these CEI's https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6080-C...145743?hash=item56ef7d2d8f:g:nLoAAOSw3gJZJKFP
> 
> Really liked the sound of the CEI and wanted a backup..



To my eyes they all look the same. And further, they look like Sylvania 6080. CEI never made this tube. In this case it appears that they bought them from Sylvania and put their own name on them.


----------



## CADCAM

gibosi said:


> To my eyes they all look the same. And further, they look like Sylvania 6080. CEI never made this tube. In this case it appears that they bought them from Sylvania and put their own name on them.


I had read here that the Sylvania wasn't very impressive sounding...that's strange...
I have the original Chinese tube labeled 6N5PJ, an RCA 6080, Svetlana 6H5C and an RCA 6AS7G and I prefer the sound of the CEI to any of them. I had originally purchased most of them for a cheap Douk Audio P7 I impulse bought but that failed and is out for repair.
I then purchased a Monoprice Monolith tube headphone amp that uses the same tubes and in that amp I really enjoy the CEI tube the most...
Maybe I'll grab a Sylvania and see\hear if I like it and sounds comparable to the CEI. Anyone have any input on the Sylvania's?


----------



## gibosi (Dec 17, 2020)

CADCAM said:


> I had read here that the Sylvania wasn't very impressive sounding...that's strange...
> I have the original Chinese tube labeled 6N5PJ, an RCA 6080, Svetlana 6H5C and an RCA 6AS7G and I prefer the sound of the CEI to any of them. I had originally purchased most of them for a cheap Douk Audio P7 I impulse bought but that failed and is out for repair.
> I then purchased a Monoprice Monolith tube headphone amp that uses the same tubes and in that amp I really enjoy the CEI tube the most...
> Maybe I'll grab a Sylvania and see\hear if I like it and sounds comparable to the CEI. Anyone have any input on the Sylvania's?



Everyone has different gear and different ears. And my advice is to ignore much of what you read and trust your own ears.


----------



## JKDJedi

CADCAM said:


> I had read here that the Sylvania wasn't very impressive sounding...that's strange...
> I have the original Chinese tube labeled 6N5PJ, an RCA 6080, Svetlana 6H5C and an RCA 6AS7G and I prefer the sound of the CEI to any of them. I had originally purchased most of them for a cheap Douk Audio P7 I impulse bought but that failed and is out for repair.
> I then purchased a Monoprice Monolith tube headphone amp that uses the same tubes and in that amp I really enjoy the CEI tube the most...
> Maybe I'll grab a Sylvania and see\hear if I like it and sounds comparable to the CEI. Anyone have any input on the Sylvania's?


I can see a Sylvania sounding better (for you) from the group you just mentioned. Nice warm tone and guessing your RCA is a top getter (60-70's)


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Everyone has different gear and different ears. And my advice is to ignore much of what you read and trust your own ears.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This. Gigantic +1.


----------



## therremans

For anyone interested.. Bendix/Chatham graphite plates (solid)


----------



## bcowen (Dec 17, 2020)

therremans said:


> For anyone interested.. Bendix/Chatham graphite plates (solid)



Hopefully the tube is good.  Seller states that it was tested on a Western Electric tester that was restored and calibrated by Chris Haedt.  Chris was one of the best in the business, but (sadly) passed away over 15 years ago, and probably stopped working on testers well before that.  The Hickok-made WE KS-15750 is a _very_ nice tester but also pretty complex, and if it hasn't been calibrated in 15+ years the readings it provides are pretty much worthless. Didn't mean to rain on the parade here, just that some sellers would do better offering _less_ information.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

therremans said:


> For anyone interested.. Bendix/Chatham graphite plates (solid)


I am so tempted but just spent a bunch of money on 6j5 and 7a4 tubes (and their variants).  I blame @Deyan (for adapters) @JKDJedi (for inspiration to purchase adapters) and @bcowen (I bought 3 of those damn L63 (and a couple of CV1932s for good measure) tubes you recommended just in case one was bad...is this what addiction feels like???)


----------



## maxpudding

PsilocybinCube said:


> I am so tempted but just spent a bunch of money on 6j5 and 7a4 tubes (and their variants).  I blame @Deyan (for adapters) @JKDJedi (for inspiration to purchase adapters) and @bcowen (I bought 3 of those damn L63 (and a couple of CV1932s for good measure) tubes you recommended just in case one was bad...is this what addiction feels like???)



I agree, “Just in case one was bad” is the best excuse one can give when there’s a bunch of extra tubes you have lying around the house 😅


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I am so tempted but just spent a bunch of money on 6j5 and 7a4 tubes (and their variants).  I blame @Deyan (for adapters) @JKDJedi (for inspiration to purchase adapters) and @bcowen (I bought 3 of those damn L63 (and a couple of CV1932s for good measure) tubes you recommended just in case one was bad...is this what addiction feels like???)



There's no such thing as too many tubes spares.  But feel free to blame everything else on @JKDJedi


----------



## JKDJedi

[


PsilocybinCube said:


> I am so tempted but just spent a bunch of money on 6j5 and 7a4 tubes (and their variants).  I blame @Deyan (for adapters) @JKDJedi (for inspiration to purchase adapters) and @bcowen (I bought 3 of those damn L63 (and a couple of CV1932s for good measure) tubes you recommended just in case one was bad...is this what addiction feels like???)


I was blaming you for the 6L5G experimental challenge I have with @bcowen !! (He doesn't know about it yet)


----------



## attmci

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284118740809?ul_noapp=true

5998/421A


----------



## CADCAM

JKDJedi said:


> I can see a Sylvania sounding better (for you) from the group you just mentioned. Nice warm tone and guessing your RCA is a top getter (60-70's)


Actually I find the CEI a bit better at detail retrieval. The stock tube sounds good but is missing something dynamically and comes across a little flat at times but still enjoyable.
I liked the RCA 6080 a lot until I heard the CEI which to me sounds superior. The Svetlana sounded OK but buzzes a bit in my amp and the RCA 6AS7G buzzes even more than the Svetlana. I supposedly have two replacement Svetlana's on the way. We will see if the seller did ship them as its been a while and I've received nadda!
I love the sound of tubes... that texture they relay is addictive and once you've heard it your hooked or at least I was.
I was fortunate enough to sell a wonderful old couple their first new receiver in 40 years and bought the old one from them (Sansui 1000A) and had it serviced. That began my love of tubes.


----------



## JKDJedi

CADCAM said:


> Actually I find the CEI a bit better at detail retrieval. The stock tube sounds good but is missing something dynamically and comes across a little flat at times but still enjoyable.
> I liked the RCA 6080 a lot until I heard the CEI which to me sounds superior. The Svetlana sounded OK but buzzes a bit in my amp and the RCA 6AS7G buzzes even more than the Svetlana. I supposedly have two replacement Svetlana's on the way. We will see if the seller did ship them as its been a while and I've received nadda!
> I love the sound of tubes... that texture they relay is addictive and once you've heard it your hooked or at least I was.
> I was fortunate enough to sell a wonderful old couple their first new receiver in 40 years and bought the old one from them (Sansui 1000A) and had it serviced. That began my love of tubes.


It's a great hobby to be in and we have great and knowledgeable folks here that enjoy helping you spend your monies on tube selections, get that card out and strap your seatbelt on.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> It's a great hobby to be in and we have great and knowledgeable folks here that enjoy helping you spend your monies on tube selections, get that card out and strap your seatbelt on.



LOL!!  Best to go ahead and apply for that credit line increase now.


----------



## gibosi

Well, one possible silver lining to this addiction is that once you have accumulated a couple thousand tubes, finding new tubes to buy becomes more difficult. But it is not impossible as I have 6 more on their way to me as I write this. lol


----------



## CADCAM

Read about the Parts Express sold GE 6AS7G and purchased one, sounds good to me.
Running it in my Monoprice Monolith amp and with the DT990's it's very enjoyable!
Thanks to skylab, I believe, for suggesting it.


----------



## gibosi

CADCAM said:


> Read about the Parts Express sold GE 6AS7G and purchased one, sounds good to me.
> Running it in my Monoprice Monolith amp and with the DT990's it's very enjoyable!
> Thanks to skylab, I believe, for suggesting it.



To the best of my knowledge, GE never made a 6AS7G. But they did make a 6AS7G*A*. ??

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6as7ga.html


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, GE never made a 6AS7G. But they did make a 6AS7G*A*. ??
> 
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6as7ga.html


think that's what he meant, had that tube at one point, and, well. Don't have it anymore. 😏


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> think that's what he meant, had that tube at one point, and, well. Don't have it anymore. 😏



And there is also a GE 6AS7GYB. But I have never heard it....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7GYB-GE-NOS-NIB-Matched-Pair-Top-DD-Getters-6AS7G/264703506710


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> And there is also a GE 6AS7GYB. But I have never heard it....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6AS7GYB-GE-NOS-NIB-Matched-Pair-Top-DD-Getters-6AS7G/264703506710



Never even heard of a 'GYB' before.  But it has pimples dots, so it's unfortunately definitely a GE.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Never even heard of a 'GYB' before.  But it has pimples dots, so it's unfortunately definitely a GE.



According to the RadioMuseum site it is "Similar to 6AS7GA, with controlled zero-bias plate current and low-loss mica-filled base."

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6as7gyb.html

But I think I will pass. lol


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> According to the RadioMuseum site it is "Similar to 6AS7GA, with controlled zero-bias plate current and low-loss mica-filled base."
> 
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6as7gyb.html
> 
> But I think I will pass. lol



LOL!  I just *hate* lossy micas.  Really ruin my day.


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## Ripper2860

Pffft.  I'm still using a 300 baud DAC with a RS232 serial interface.


----------



## CADCAM

JKDJedi said:


> think that's what he meant, had that tube at one point, and, well. Don't have it anymore. 😏


I liked the GE from Parts Express but received a GE 5 star and have had it in the amp since it arrived.
Can I ask what you moved on to?


----------



## JKDJedi

CADCAM said:


> I liked the GE from Parts Express but received a GE 5 star and have had it in the amp since it arrived.
> Can I ask what you moved on to?


Sylvania, Tung Sol, Gec, Bendix, Western Electric, Mullard, Chatham, RCA, and a russian Winged C, not as much as most of these guys here, I rotate them out depending on my mood or conversation here.


----------



## adeadcrab

I had a noisy parts express GE 6AS7GA, bought another 5 pair of the 6AS7GA, swapped the left channel's noisy tube out, been rocking the 6AS7GA for a month or so now... no inclinations to change to 7236 / 6080WB etc. such a nice warm sound


----------



## Tom-s

Found a picture from today 5 years ago. Among the first tube rolls in my Crack. A "Raytheon" with weird metal plate; Bendix tested.

Didn't know what it was at the time. With a 280 factory code I concluded it was a Raytheon, not a Bendix.

I've seen tubes with this plate structure pass this topic since, and now think it's a Bendix.

From my notes. I liked it best with Tung Sol 6F8G round plates and 1578 Melz silver hole plates. 

Not much has changed since then. Happy new year all.


----------



## gibosi

Yes indeed, Happy New Year!

良いお年を！


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 1, 2021)

Tom-s said:


> Found a picture from today 5 years ago. Among the first tube rolls in my Crack. A "Raytheon" with weird metal plate; Bendix tested.
> 
> Didn't know what it was at the time. With a 280 factory code I concluded it was a Raytheon, not a Bendix.
> 
> ...


they're slowly popping up, I now know 4 Headfi members that have this metal plated Bendix tube. What's the date code on yours? So far the builds I've seen are from 1957 to 59.


----------



## JTbbb

JKDJedi said:


> they're slowly popping up, I now know 4 Headfi members that have this metal plated Bendix tube. What's the date code on yours? So far the builds I've seen are from 1957 to 59
> 
> A fifth member now! These joined my little collection yesterday and I’ve been listening to them all afternoon in my Euforia, they sound wonderful despite the disparity in construction of the top plate.


----------



## therremans

@JTbbb Those are the more sought after slotted graphite plates.


----------



## Tom-s

@JKDJedi ; Mine is from 1964 and has OO getters. Where yours appears to have DD getters?

@JTbbb; I've attached an overview of build types. 
From left to right: solid graphite, slotted graphite and metal plates.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 1, 2021)

Tom-s said:


> @JKDJedi ; Mine is from 1964 and has OO getters. Where yours appears to have DD getters?
> 
> @JTbbb; I've attached an overview of build types.
> From left to right: solid graphite, slotted graphite and metal plates.


That is very interesting!! Supposedly.. by the lesser known shysters Bangy Bang Bang .. there were only 7 of these made... 🤣🤣 anyways.. to my knowledge from the few I know that are out there we have them ranging from 57 to 64.. good to know, whats the date on yours @bcowen ? and yes DD getters


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> That is very interesting!! Supposedly.. by the lesser known shysters Bangy Bang Bang .. there were only 7 of these made... 🤣🤣 anyways.. to my knowledge from the few I know that are out there we have them ranging from 57 to 64.. good to know, whats the date on yours @bcowen ? and yes DD getters



The date codes on my metal-plated Bendix have been rubbed off, but they have halo getters.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That is very interesting!! Supposedly.. by the lesser known shysters Bangy Bang Bang .. there were only 7 of these made... 🤣🤣 anyways.. to my knowledge from the few I know that are out there we have them ranging from 57 to 64.. good to know, whats the date on yours @bcowen ? and yes DD getters



I don't know.  Some previous owner must have rubbed the date off.  Seriously, I can't find any marking on it that would indicate the date. All I know for sure is that it was engineering sample 7X, and of course it has the most desirable feature of all audio tubes: Double D cups getters.


----------



## CADCAM

Could one of you 6080 Jedi masters take a look at this tube 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-G...357936?hash=item2d213fcdf0:g:2j4AAOSwihxf74HV
I really like the sound of my CEI 6080 (might be my favorite) and was wondering if this would be something with a similar sound signature?? or maybe just a good tube for my Monoprice Monolith tube amp.
thank you


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> The date codes on my metal-plated Bendix have been rubbed off, but they have halo getters.


Nothing stamped
on the top?


CADCAM said:


> Could one of you 6080 Jedi masters take a look at this tube
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-G...357936?hash=item2d213fcdf0:g:2j4AAOSwihxf74HV
> I really like the sound of my CEI 6080 (might be my favorite) and was wondering if this would be something with a similar sound signature?? or maybe just a good tube for my Monoprice Monolith tube amp.
> thank you


Well, if you got it because it's gone... then your in for a treat, especially for the asking price on it.


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Nothing stamped
> on the top?



No, the top appears to be perfectly smooth, not even a trace of etching. And much of the text on the base has been rubbed off. Now, this tube is labeled Raytheon and for quite some time I couldn't decide if it was a Bendix or a Raytheon. But now that I've seen several of them, judging by construction, I feel quite sure it is a Bendix. And again, it has halo getters so it is not an early one.


----------



## CADCAM

Well, if you got it because it's gone... then your in for a treat, especially for the asking price on it.
[/QUOTE]

Yea I grabbed it hoping it would turn out well. I've read a bit about Sylvania Gold Brands and even though I just got that Parts Express GE 6AS7GA and a '62 GE 5 Star, for the price how could I resist this one?  
So this tube collecting is a bit of an addiction. I pretty much just got this amp and so far, along with the stock Chinese 6N5PJ, I have bought 2 '66 Svetlana 6H5C, a vintage RCA 6080, a '66 RCA 6AS7G, a CEI 6080 and the aforementioned 62' GE 5 Star & GE 6AS7GA! Here we go...


----------



## Slade01

CADCAM said:


> Yea I grabbed it hoping it would turn out well. I've read a bit about Sylvania Gold Brands and even though I just got that Parts Express GE 6AS7GA and a '62 GE 5 Star, for the price how could I resist this one?
> So this tube collecting is a bit of an addiction. I pretty much just got this amp and so far, along with the stock Chinese 6N5PJ, I have bought 2 '66 Svetlana 6H5C, a vintage RCA 6080, a '66 RCA 6AS7G, a CEI 6080 and the aforementioned 62' GE 5 Star & GE 6AS7GA! Here we go...



That was a very nice price for that Sylvania GB-6080. Hope you do like it.  It is personally one of my favorites.


----------



## LoryWiv

Slade01 said:


> That was a very nice price for that Sylvania GB-6080. Hope you do like it.  It is personally one of my favorites.


Agree Gold Brands are generally very well-built and amongst the best of the Sylvanias, I have GB 6550's (with adapters) in as powers now in Feliks-Audio Elise. Free of extraneous noise and great sound.


----------



## JTbbb

Some more pics of my Bendix’s which may help for identification purposes. Perhaps you guys can tell me the dates of these tubes. We can certainly see the halo getter in one of the tubes, but the tube with the top ceramic plate I can’t for the life of me see the getter. If the date codes are quite different, it has not affected the way they sound in my Euforia.


----------



## CADCAM

LoryWiv said:


> Agree Gold Brands are generally very well-built and amongst the best of the Sylvanias, I have GB 6550's (with adapters) in as powers now in Feliks-Audio Elise. Free of extraneous noise and great sound.


Any idea of these date codes from the Sylvania GB 6080 I just purchased?  The date / lot codes on the glass are BM and EBP 
Thanks for any direction.


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Some more pics of my Bendix’s which may help for identification purposes. Perhaps you guys can tell me the dates of these tubes. We can certainly see the halo getter in one of the tubes, but the tube with the top ceramic plate I can’t for the life of me see the getter. If the date codes are quite different, it has not affected the way they sound in my Euforia.



I think I see 2 44 etched into the top? And while I am not sure, it might be 1962 week 44.


----------



## gibosi

CADCAM said:


> Any idea of these date codes from the Sylvania GB 6080 I just purchased?  The date / lot codes on the glass are BM and EBP
> Thanks for any direction.



The large letters contained within a rectangle, BM, indicate the tube was manufactured in December, 1955. The smaller capital letters below the rectangle are more difficult. "E" indicates the factory at Emporium, Pennsylvania. However I have yet to discover the meaning of the last two letters, in this case, "BP."


----------



## JKDJedi

gibosi said:


> I think I see 2 44 etched into the top? And while I am not sure, it might be 1962 week 44.


That's what I was thinking too, 1962 44th week.. and a flattering image on the tube as well .


----------



## JTbbb

JKDJedi said:


> That's what I was thinking too, 1962 44th week.. and a flattering image on the tube as well .



Lol, I like that comment! It is not me but one of my carers, she always looks like she has been dragged through a hedge backwards, you wouldn’t want it in focus! Going back to the date codes, I didn’t realise they were on the top, and yes it is 244 and the other 232.


----------



## JTbbb

JTbbb said:


> Lol, I like that comment! It is not me but one of my carers, she always looks like she has been dragged through a hedge backwards, you wouldn’t want it in focus! Going back to the date codes, I didn’t realise they were on the top, and yes it is 244 and the other 232.



[Edit] Don’t get me wrong, she’s a lovely carer and looks after me well. Bless her.


----------



## ian91

Hi, 

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread, but I was hoping someone could tell me what these are? They were given to me years ago and I don't have any details on them. 

What 'family' of tubes are these from? 

Thanks for your time, 
Ian


----------



## gibosi

ian91 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the correct thread, but I was hoping someone could tell me what these are? They were given to me years ago and I don't have any details on them.
> 
> ...



The 6Ж1П-ЕВ is a Russian pentode equivalent to the western 6AK5 / EF95.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6j1p-ev.html

You might have more luck in one of the Little Dot threads.


----------



## ian91

gibosi said:


> The 6Ж1П-ЕВ is a Russian pentode equivalent to the western 6AK5 / EF95.
> 
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6j1p-ev.html
> 
> You might have more luck in one of the Little Dot threads.



Thankyou!


----------



## CADCAM (Jan 3, 2021)

Just a heads up here about an experience I had on eBay with a seller called _annalomteva _based in the Ukraine. I purchased two NOS 1966 6N5S tubes from them and one was super noisy to the point of not being usable and the other buzzes a bit in my amp. I contacted them and they said replacements would be sent and not to worry. That was over 5 weeks ago and I've received nothing and they've stopped responding to my messages.
If they do replace the tubes or credit me I will certainly post an update but as for now I'd avoid them unfortunately.


----------



## JKDJedi

CADCAM said:


> Just a heads up here about an experience I had on eBay with a seller called _annalomteva _based in the Ukraine. I purchased two NOS 1966 6N5S tubes from them and one was super noisy to the point of not being usable and the other buzzes a bit in my amp. I contacted them and they said replacements would be sent and not to worry. That was over 5 weeks ago and I've received nothing and they've stopped responding to my messages.
> If they do replace the tubes or credit me I will certainly post an update but as for now I'd avoid them unfortunately.


resodder the pins


----------



## Ripper2860

JKDJedi said:


> resodder the pins








I'm sure @JKDJedi meant resolder, but honestly I've never tried to 'resodder' anything other than my lawn so maybe he knows something I don't.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm sure @JKDJedi meant resolder, but honestly I've never tried to 'resodder' anything other than my lawn so maybe he knows something I don't.



ROFL!  

But it's a well known fact that NC grass works much better than TX grass.  It says so on the internet.


----------



## Ripper2860

We have no native lawns, but we do import our grass from Mexico.  It's very hard work and time consuming.  Have you ever tried to sod a lawn using nickel bags?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 4, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm sure @JKDJedi meant resolder, but honestly I've never tried to 'resodder' anything other than my lawn so maybe he knows something I don't.


The gardner in me comes out once in a while. 😁.Bermuda and Rye for me.. 😏


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> ROFL!
> 
> But it's a well known fact that NC grass works much better than TX grass.  It says so on the internet.


I prefer grass from CO or CA, especially while listening to music.


----------



## gibosi

As it's winter and the house is a bit cold, I thought I would roll in a pair of Chatham / Tung-Sol 6528. These are 5 amp tubes, so a pair require 10 amps of heater current. In some circuits, one 6528 can replace two or even three 6080s. In addition to using them as room heaters, lol, their real value in an OTL is they do a very decent job driving inefficient / low Z headphones and they sound quite good. But again, be very sure your amp can handle 5 amp output tubes before you chase after these.


----------



## JTbbb

Took delivery of these beauties this morning, double bottom D getters and no chrome dome. Can anyone shed some light on the date of manufacture? Thanks.


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Took delivery of these beauties this morning, double bottom D getters and no chrome dome. Can anyone shed some light on the date of manufacture? Thanks.



Nice!! 

708 = 1957, week 8
And in the photo, the numbers on the right tube are not clear, but my guess is 719? 1957, week 19.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> As it's winter and the house is a bit cold, I thought I would roll in a pair of Chatham / Tung-Sol 6528. These are 5 amp tubes, so a pair require 10 amps of heater current. In some circuits, one 6528 can replace two or even three 6080s. In addition to using them as room heaters, lol, their real value in an OTL is they do a very decent job driving inefficient / low Z headphones and they sound quite good. But again, be very sure your amp can handle 5 amp output tubes before you chase after these.



Nice! 

And not to step on your already good note of caution, but you guys with Darkvoice 336 amps?  Don't even think about it.  I seriously doubt that transformer can handle 5 amps of heater current without smoking (a 6AS7 or 6080 and even a 5998 only draw half that).


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> Nice!!
> 
> 708 = 1957, week 8
> And in the photo, the numbers on the right tube are not clear, but my guess is 719? 1957, week 19.



Thanks for that. Am listening to them now, nice!


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Nice!
> 
> And not to step on your already good note of caution, but you guys with Darkvoice 336 amps?  Don't even think about it.  I seriously doubt that transformer can handle 5 amps of heater current without smoking (a 6AS7 or 6080 and even a 5998 only draw half that).



Yeah - I came across the Tung-Sol 6528 awhile ago (as the 7236 became super ultra rare/scarce), and figured it out that it would sizzle and melt darkvoice.  It's too bad, because its one nice looking tube.


----------



## bcowen

"Wege" is high again.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JTbbb said:


> Took delivery of these beauties this morning, double bottom D getters and no chrome dome. Can anyone shed some light on the date of manufacture? Thanks.


Those are pretty.  You should be proud.

Now you can join the double D bottom getter crew with me and @JKDJedi


----------



## CADCAM

Received my Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand and I am thoroughly enjoying it!
Lee Ritenour ~ Wes Bound


----------



## LoryWiv

CADCAM said:


> Received my Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand and I am thoroughly enjoying it!
> Lee Ritenour ~ Wes Bound


Nice, @CADCAM. Do these generate large amounts of heat as some 6080's do?


----------



## JKDJedi

CADCAM said:


> Received my Sylvania 6080 Gold Brand and I am thoroughly enjoying it!
> Lee Ritenour ~ Wes Bound





LoryWiv said:


> Nice, @CADCAM. Do these generate large amounts of heat as some 6080's do?


all 6080 generate heat. Is there one that doesn't? 🤔


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> all 6080 generate heat. Is there one that doesn't? 🤔



This one.  Oh wait, that's a 6520.  Nevermind.


----------



## LoryWiv

JKDJedi said:


> all 6080 generate heat. Is there one that doesn't? 🤔


Perhaps not, but as much as I enjoy my GEC 6080's they are hotter than July....hoping some were less so.


----------



## CADCAM (Jan 11, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Nice, @CADCAM. Do these generate large amounts of heat as some 6080's do?


I measured 260+ degrees max scanning the 6080 tube.
My driver tubes are running about 100 degrees cooler.


----------



## bcowen

CADCAM said:


> I measured 260+ degrees max scanning the 6080 tube.
> My driver tubes are running about 100 degrees cooler.



If you want some _real_ tube warmth, grab a pair of Cary 211FE's.  The 845 output tube measures close to 450 degrees. Times 2...per amp.  Then times 2 again...they're monoblocks     The 300B tubes sitting right next to them almost feel like refrigerators in comparison.


----------



## GDuss

CADCAM said:


> I measured 260+ degrees max scanning the 6080 tube.
> My driver tubes are running about 100 degrees cooler.



TS 5998's in the GOTL:


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> This one.  Oh wait, that's a 6520.  Nevermind.



okay what happened? Lol


----------



## Ripper2860

You shouldn't listen to your music so loud.


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> okay what happened? Lol



Marilyn Manson at 130db.   


Seriously...textbook case of butterfingers.


----------



## JTbbb

maxpudding said:


> okay what happened? Lol



Don’t mess with bcowen in a bar!


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Don’t mess with bcowen in a bar!



Yeah.  What @JTbbb said.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

This is not what you want your box to show up looking like coming from Eastern Europe...hoping the tubes inside are OK.

The amp is my revitalized BHC now living at my office.  Waiting on rubber feet to give it a lift off the ground. 

@DenverW I think it is an improvement over the black base!

I have no idea what the wood is.  It has been sitting in my dad's house for years and I decided to use it.  I thought it was sandalwood, but that is wrong.  The finish is Minwax Antique Oil which I use on almost everything but have never used with audio gear...so hopefully it holds up well to heat.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> This is not what you want your box to show up looking like coming from Eastern Europe...hoping the tubes inside are OK.
> 
> The amp is my revitalized BHC now living at my office.  Waiting on rubber feet to give it a lift off the ground.
> 
> ...



The wood is gorgeous!!  Hope your tubes are OK.


----------



## DenverW

PsilocybinCube said:


> This is not what you want your box to show up looking like coming from Eastern Europe...hoping the tubes inside are OK.
> 
> The amp is my revitalized BHC now living at my office.  Waiting on rubber feet to give it a lift off the ground.
> 
> ...



Now that is sexy! I remember you were using some ugly black painted base before, dunno where it came from!

Make sure you don’t run the amp, especially for long periods without the feet.  It needs the lower ventilation to not heat up too much.  Just find some ways to elevate the corners for now if you don’t have them yet, that’s better than letting it cook.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> This is not what you want your box to show up looking like coming from Eastern Europe...hoping the tubes inside are OK.
> 
> The amp is my revitalized BHC now living at my office.  Waiting on rubber feet to give it a lift off the ground.
> 
> ...



Here....found the perfect feet for your Crack.  It's possible you need to be _on_ crack first though... 

https://www.thecableco.com/accessories/feet/giant-diamond-resonators-set-of-3.html


----------



## DenverW (Jan 13, 2021)

And wrong thread 

double edit:  I posted a comment meant for another thread, so removed it .  I’m not thinking of any previous post!


----------



## maxpudding

Yes, in my case, one of the shunt regulator tube socket was too large for the hole, had to sand the hole and everything was fine...until I found that I am missing one very particular resistor. So, I had to order online, but the minimum order was 5 units 😂 

But overall, the C2A is a very nice amp, I have been enjoying the amp thoroughly. Now I am in the middle of upgrading the caps and installing the twoquiet attenuators.


----------



## DenverW

maxpudding said:


> Yes, in my case, one of the shunt regulator tube socket was too large for the hole, had to sand the hole and everything was fine...until I found that I am missing one very particular resistor. So, I had to order online, but the minimum order was 5 units 😂
> 
> But overall, the C2A is a very nice amp, I have been enjoying the amp thoroughly. Now I am in the middle of upgrading the caps and installing the twoquiet attenuators.



What cap upgrades are you thinking?  I actually picked up a pair of miflex kpcu.1uf while they were on sale.  theyre supposed to be excellent caps.  I ended up removing my post here and putting it in the crack thread, so we can talk there in order to not detract from the 6AS7G thread.  I know bcowen and paladin hate it when the thread derails .


----------



## maxpudding (Jan 13, 2021)

DenverW said:


> What cap upgrades are you thinking?  I actually picked up a pair of miflex kpcu.1uf while they were on sale.  theyre supposed to be excellent caps.  I ended up removing my post here and putting it in the crack thread, so we can talk there in order to not detract from the 6AS7G thread.  I know bcowen and paladin hate it when the thread derails .



😂 Well, I can report that I purchased a pair of tung sol 7236 tubes, and they do sound good in my C2A.

Then, I rolled a pair of 6BX7 tubes with the 12AU7, the sound kinda reminds me of rolling the 5998. Note that this combo pushes the current of a crack PT-3 transformer to the edge (~3.5A rms), so you cannot use 6SN7 with the 6BX7 tubes in a crack. But, Paul from bottlehead said the C2A transformer has no problem handling this particular combo (two 6BX7+ single 12au7), although I am not sure what’s the maximum heat current from a PT-8, haven’t had the chance to ask them.

To answer your original question, I chose to upgrade the stock output caps to the inexpensive Dayton Audio 100uF 250V  nothing too exotic.


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 13, 2021)

maxpudding said:


> 😂 Well, I can report that I purchased a pair of tung sol 7236 tubes, and they do sound good in my C2A.
> 
> Then, I rolled a pair of 6BX7 tubes with the 12AU7, the sound kinda reminds me of rolling the 5998. Note that this combo pushes the current of a crack PT-3 transformer to the edge (~3.5A rms), so you cannot use 6SN7 with the 6BX7 tubes in a crack. But, Paul from bottlehead said the C2A transformer has no problem handling this particular combo (two 6BX7+ single 12au7), although I am not sure what’s the maximum heat current from a PT-8, haven’t had the chance to ask them.
> 
> To answer your original question, I chose to upgrade the stock output caps to the inexpensive Dayton Audio 100uF 250V  nothing too exotic.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-6SN7-6BL7-TO-6AS7-tube-adapter-For-Elise-amp-/201511879930 The dual* 6bL7* will work on some amps, not on mine which is a shame, was really looking forward to that sound. Think this would work on the Crack? Edit: Just read your post..pushed it to the edge at 3.5A .. lets push it and find out!


----------



## gibosi (Jan 13, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-6SN7-6BL7-TO-6AS7-tube-adapter-For-Elise-amp-/201511879930 The dual* 6bL7* will work on some amps, not on mine which is a shame, was really looking forward to that sound. Think this would work on the Crack? Edit: Just read your post..pushed it to the edge at 3.5A .. lets push it and find out!



The 6BL7 has a higher amplication factor, 15, than the 6BX7, 10. And in some amps the higher AF produces more noise. Also, to my ears the 6BL7 sound a bit warmer than the 6BX7.

And if you do go down this route, you can roll GE, Sylvania, RCA, Tung Sol, Fivre and Toshiba. I should note that RCA and Tung Sol didn't make this tube until around 1960, so before then they were sourcing these tubes from GE and Sylvania and putting their label on them.


----------



## GDuss

gibosi said:


> And in some amps the higher AF produces more noise.



IMHO, this is the biggest drawback of 6BX7 and 6BL7 tubes, at least on the GOTL.  The driver tubes that are paired with these power tubes need to be extra quiet.  I have plenty of driver tubes that are favorites with 6080 (mu of 2), 6AS7G (mu of 2), or even 5998 (mu of 5) power tubes.  If those driver tubes have noise, it is either inaudible or barely audible with these power tubes.  But once I switch to 6BX7 (which as noted above has a mu of 10) or even worse with the 6BL7 (also noted above, mu of 15), the list of quiet/usable driver tubes is much, much smaller.  The other negative is that you lose range on the volume pot with the higher amplification, although this may not be the case on every amp.

I'm not trying to dissuade people (they're really great tubes), just reinforcing the points raised above for consideration before anyone buys the adapters and tubes to try this out.


----------



## CADCAM (Jan 13, 2021)

I think I may have just solved an issue with my Monoprice Monolith amp that I've had since I purchased it. It seems very well built (over 20lbs!) and tube rolling hasn't been an issue. Tube sockets are secure and well mounted, I wish the tubes were visible but can't do anything about that. The issue is the volume pot. It's super sensitive, thank God for the impedance selection switch or I'd be in more trouble. Usable maybe to 9 o'clock even with the 600 ohm Beyers. Just gets too loud too quick.
I used to vertically bi-amp my speakers with twin McCormack dna .5's but have sold the speakers and amps off recently. The only thing left over from that system is a Placette RVC which uses a ladder array of vishay resistors to precisely control volume with 125 steps. I'm thinking if I put the Placette in between my DAC and amp to control volume I'll have a little more adjustment & wiggle room.
BTW the whole reason I came on was to say the Sylvania GB 6080 sounds glorious but I still think it comes in second to my CEI 6080 which just kills detail retrieval and that tube tactical feel. The skin of a drum or finger on a string, that CEI is just magical. I ordered two more! I can only imagine what happens as you move up in the 6080\6AS7g tube ladder. Any input on a next step up from the CEI and also if anyone would like to chime in on using the Placette that would be great. http://www.placetteaudio.com/remote_control.htm


----------



## JKDJedi

CADCAM said:


> I think I may have just solved an issue I have had with my Monoprice Monolith amp that I've had since I purchased it. It seems very well built (over 20lbs!) and tube rolling hasn't been an issue. Tube sockets are secure and well mounted, I wish the tubes were visible but can't do anything about that. The issue is the volume pot. It's super sensitive, thank God for the impedance selection switch or I'd be in more trouble. Usable maybe to 9 o'clock even with the 600 ohm Beyers. Just gets too loud too quick.
> I used to vertically bi-amp my speakers with twin McCormack dna .5's but have sold the speakers and amps off recently. The only thing left over from that system is a Placette RVC which uses a ladder array of vishay resistors to precisely control volume with 125 steps. I'm thinking if I put the Placette in between my DAC and amp to control volume I'll have a little more adjustment & wiggle room.
> BTW the whole reason I came on was to say the Sylvania GB 6080 sounds glorious but I still think it comes in second to my CEI 6080 which just kills detail retrieval and that tube tactical feel. The skin of a drum or finger on a string, that CEI is just magical. I ordered two more! I can only imagine what happens as you move up in the 6080\6AS7g tube ladder. Any input on a next step up from the CEI and also if anyone would like to chime in on using the Placette that would be great. http://www.placetteaudio.com/remote_control.htm


Bendix (slotted), GEC, Mullard.. 6080


----------



## maxpudding (Jan 13, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-Dual-6SN7-6BL7-TO-6AS7-tube-adapter-For-Elise-amp-/201511879930 The dual* 6bL7* will work on some amps, not on mine which is a shame, was really looking forward to that sound. Think this would work on the Crack? Edit: Just read your post..pushed it to the edge at 3.5A .. lets push it and find out!



You can try with a single 6bl7/6bx7 tube on the crack prior to getting the adapter. But if you decided to buy the adapter for a dual setup, keep in mind you can only use a single 12au7 as the driver tube. Or, you can also buy a dual 6c4 to 12au7 adapter (filament current of 2 x 6c4 = 1 x 12au7), and run a combo of dual 6bx7 and dual 6c4 tubes 😂😂


----------



## PsilocybinCube

DenverW said:


> And wrong thread


To be fair, there were 6h5c tubes in that beat up box...so kind of the right thread.


----------



## DenverW

PsilocybinCube said:


> To be fair, there were 6h5c tubes in that beat up box...so kind of the right thread.



oh, just a FYI, I had posted a story of my crackatwoa that I meant to be in the crack thread instead and removed it.  So I wasn’t thinking of any previous thread, but my own.  Sorry for the confusion!


----------



## bcowen

DenverW said:


> oh, just a FYI, I had posted a story of my crackatwoa that I meant to be in the crack thread instead and removed it.  So I wasn’t thinking of any previous thread, but my own.  Sorry for the confusion!



Whew.  I was thinking you were beating up on @PsilocybinCube , and only @Paladin79 is authorized to do that.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Whew.  I was thinking you were beating up on @PsilocybinCube , and only @Paladin79 is authorized to do that.


LOL leave Cube alone he is a paying customer and received actual wood from a tree on his Incubus amp, your freebee got recycled cardboard from artificial Xmas trees.


----------



## JTbbb

There are some Bendix slotted graphite plate 6080’s just come up on eBay. Don’t see them very often.


----------



## attmci

maxpudding said:


> You can try with a single 6bl7/6bx7 tube on the crack prior to getting the adapter. But if you decided to buy the adapter for a dual setup, keep in mind you can only use a single 12au7 as the driver tube. Or, you can also buy a dual 6c4 to 12au7 adapter (filament current of 2 x 6c4 = 1 x 12au7), and run a combo of dual 6bx7 and dual 6c4 tubes 😂😂


Is this a crack?


----------



## attmci

JTbbb said:


> There are some Bendix slotted graphite plate 6080’s just come up on eBay. Don’t see them very often.


And 33% off too!!!!! But cannot see the slot.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-6080-...692158?hash=item2aef41c83e:g:GSAAAOSwA~5fN10K


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> And 33% off too!!!!! But cannot see the slot.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-6080-...692158?hash=item2aef41c83e:g:GSAAAOSwA~5fN10K


The 5ive got sold...nice buy.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> And 33% off too!!!!! But cannot see the slot.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-6080-...692158?hash=item2aef41c83e:g:GSAAAOSwA~5fN10K



These appear to be early builds with metal plates. And "mechanical sample" suggests that they might have been among the very first ones made. Perhaps interesting to a collector, but $670 is way too rich for my wallet.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> These appear to be early builds with metal plates. And "mechanical sample" suggests that they might have been among the very first ones made. Perhaps interesting to a collector, but $670 is way too rich for my wallet.



That one from BangyBang has been listed for at least 2 months now.  Considering the seller, I wouldn't pay $6.70 for it.


----------



## maxpudding

attmci said:


> Is this a crack?



crackatwoa


----------



## JTbbb

attmci said:


> And 33% off too!!!!! But cannot see the slot.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-6080-...692158?hash=item2aef41c83e:g:GSAAAOSwA~5fN10K



That is not the sale I was referring too. The sale I was referring to had 5 or was it 4 used tubes that looked good and we’re definitely slotted graphite, and the price for all of them was cheaper than the one tube you found. I guess they had already sold when you were searching. I hope they went to someone from this forum?


----------



## gurubhai

attmci said:


> And 33% off too!!!!! But cannot see the slot.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-6080-...692158?hash=item2aef41c83e:g:GSAAAOSwA~5fN10K


Got a couple of these, mine are labeled Raytheon though.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> That is not the sale I was referring too. The sale I was referring to had 5 or was it 4 used tubes that looked good and we’re definitely slotted graphite, and the price for all of them was cheaper than the one tube you found. I guess they had already sold when you were searching. I hope they went to someone from this forum?



Here's another....6 hours to go (as of 9:20 AM eastern standard time 1/15/21) and current bid at $36 for 3 of them.  They are graphite plates, but not the slotted version.  I know nothing about the seller, so take this strictly FWIW.  One of the tubes has a scratch in the glass and the seller says something is rattling in the other two.  Could be nothing (an extraneous piece of loose glass, or could be significant, like a piece of broken mica or even internal structural failure/damage). At least the seller is being upfront about the condition...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Good-Cha...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## bcowen

Here's one more, again FWIW as I know nothing about the seller. This actually looks like a very nice deal. These are not graphite plates (and not as good to my ears), but they _are_ the "good" sounding Tung Sol 6080 steel plates with the triple micas, metal mica supports, and the silver edge at the bottom of the plates. $48 for 3 with free shipping is a nice price. If I didn't already have several...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393096279861?ul_noapp=true


----------



## therremans

bcowen said:


> Here's another....6 hours to go (as of 9:20 AM eastern standard time 1/15/21) and current bid at $36 for 3 of them.  They are graphite plates, but not the slotted version.  I know nothing about the seller, so take this strictly FWIW.  One of the tubes has a scratch in the glass and the seller says something is rattling in the other two.  Could be nothing (an extraneous piece of loose glass, or could be significant, like a piece of broken mica or even internal structural failure/damage). At least the seller is being upfront about the condition...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Good-Chatham-6080WB-Graphite-Anode-Vacuum-Tube-1960-Dates-Rugged/383894737062?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


For what it’s worth.. I wrote him days ago and asked some questions. He never responded. I wanted to confirm what his min testing number was. I’m assuming 36 based on the tester used. It looks like a crack and I’d consider that tube to have a death sentence. I’d try to glue the crack and do whatever to secure it before use.


----------



## Ripper2860

Per description 1 has a crack in glass, another has a loose base.  Measurements are iffy at best.  I'd pass if the sale is still active.


----------



## therremans

Ripper2860 said:


> Per description 1 has a crack in glass, another has a loose base.  Measurements are iffy at best.  I'd pass if the sale is still active.


Sold for $156.50


----------



## Ripper2860

Good luck to them.  I hope all is A-OK.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

therremans said:


> Sold for $156.50


I was winning that auction with a $75 bid and only 90 minutes or so until it finished.  I thought I would win.  Guess I underestimated the desire for these tubes...


----------



## maxpudding (Jan 16, 2021)

I have been enjoying the Melz 1578 perforated anode tubes with 6080 since they have arrived a week ago. Now I understand the attraction towards these Russian tubes.

Imagine my surprise (not) when I saw that the prices of the Melz 1578 have gone up considerably within two months!


----------



## CADCAM

Anyone have any input on the Svetlana 6N13S? I've been communicating with a seller on eBay tubes_old70 and have purchased several pairs of 6N3P driver tubes with good results from him.
He has a couple 6N13S he says measure very good, one from 1966 twin/balanced and one from 1992 twin/balanced. My favorite 6080 so far is my CEI and I tried getting a couple spares but one is buzzy and the other hums a slight amount from one channel. It stinks that some power tubes I buy are silent while others are noisy. My amp is essentially new.


----------



## bcowen

CADCAM said:


> Anyone have any input on the Svetlana 6N13S? I've been communicating with a seller on eBay tubes_old70 and have purchased several pairs of 6N3P driver tubes with good results from him.
> He has a couple 6N13S he says measure very good, one from 1966 twin/balanced and one from 1992 twin/balanced. My favorite 6080 so far is my CEI and I tried getting a couple spares but one is buzzy and the other hums a slight amount from one channel. It stinks that some power tubes I buy are silent while others are noisy. My amp is essentially new.



Resoldering the pins on those noisy ones may fix them.  No guarantees, but surprising sometimes.


----------



## attmci

maxpudding said:


> crackatwoa


I see. Because I was the only one using 6BL7/6BX7 on Crack a couple of years ago.


----------



## maxpudding

attmci said:


> I see. Because I was the only one using 6BL7/6BX7 on Crack a couple of years ago.



Yeah, I saw the discussions that you had in the BH forum, then I decided to try them on my C2A since I have a few 6BX7s lying around 😆

Btw, thank you for that 🙏🏻


----------



## gibosi

CADCAM said:


> Anyone have any input on the Svetlana 6N13S? I've been communicating with a seller on eBay tubes_old70 and have purchased several pairs of 6N3P driver tubes with good results from him.
> He has a couple 6N13S he says measure very good, one from 1966 twin/balanced and one from 1992 twin/balanced. My favorite 6080 so far is my CEI and I tried getting a couple spares but one is buzzy and the other hums a slight amount from one channel. It stinks that some power tubes I buy are silent while others are noisy. My amp is essentially new.



It is important to remember that these vacuum tubes were manufactured 50 or more years ago. And there is no way to know how they have been stored over the years. And even brand new tubes many not have been all that quiet given that 6AS7-type tubes were never designed for audio. Rather, they were originally intended to be used as regulator tubes in dc power-supply units.

Perhaps your problem is that you have never given noise a chance to make you happy?  lol... just kidding.


----------



## attmci

maxpudding said:


> Yeah, I saw the discussions that you had in the BH forum, then I decided to try them on my C2A since I have a few 6BX7s lying around 😆
> 
> Btw, thank you for that 🙏🏻


Thanks for confirming it works. 

I had collected a full box (large) of various 6Bl7 and 6bx7 for that experiment.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that these vacuum tubes were manufactured 50 or more years ago. And there is no way to know how they have been stored over the years. And even brand new tubes many not have been all that quiet given that 6AS7-type tubes were never designed for audio. Rather, they were originally intended to be used as regulator tubes in dc power-supply units.
> 
> Perhaps your problem is that you have never given noise a chance to make you happy?  lol... just kidding.


Use a hard to drive headphone (i.e. 1266) then you won't have the noise issue. LOL


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, what would you tell me about that tube. Is it equivalent to Western Eletric 421a?


----------



## JTbbb

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, what would you tell me about that tube. Is it equivalent to Western Eletric 421a?



Looks like a 5998 to me. I’ve never seen a Mullard stamped one though.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Guys, what would you tell me about that tube. Is it equivalent to Western Eletric 421a?



Might be a very good sounding tube.  However, Mullard never made a 421A.  The only company that ever made a true 421A is Western Electric, as that number was proprietary to them.  Of course the domino plate 5998 is similar (if not identical), and it's possible that Western Electric made 5998's for Tung Sol and Chatham and such, but they would have labeled them as 5998's if they had, not as a "Tung Sol 421A."  So whatever the origin of that tube is, it has been relabeled.  And if someone relabeled a genuine WE 421A as a Mullard then they're not smart enough to be an idiot.    Again it could be a great sounding TS or Chatham 5998, just not a "Mullard" 421A.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Might be a very good sounding tube.  However, Mullard never made a 421A.  The only company that ever made a true 421A is Western Electric, as that number was proprietary to them.  Of course the domino plate 5998 is similar (if not identical), and it's possible that Western Electric made 5998's for Tung Sol and Chatham and such, but they would have labeled them as 5998's if they had, not as a "Tung Sol 421A."  So whatever the origin of that tube is, it has been relabeled.  And if someone relabeled a genuine WE 421A as a Mullard then they're not smart enough to be an idiot.    Again it could be a great sounding TS or Chatham 5998, just not a "Mullard" 421A.



Edit:  If this is what you're looking at:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254831897786?hash=item3b552a2cba:g:L3MAAOSwOrNf~GTK

be aware that the seller is stating that the test number of 6250 is "new."  On a KS15750 tester, 6250 is MINIMUM, not new.  So with GM readings of 7800 and 7750 that tube is *very* used, and not even close to NOS which would give GM readings closer to 13,000.  I'd steer very clear of that seller as he is either clueless about his tester or is just being dishonest.


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> Edit:  If this is what you're looking at:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254831897786?hash=item3b552a2cba:g:L3MAAOSwOrNf~GTK
> 
> be aware that the seller is stating that the test number of 6250 is "new."  On a KS15750 tester, 6250 is MINIMUM, not new.  So with GM readings of 7800 and 7750 that tube is *very* used, and not even close to NOS which would give GM readings closer to 13,000.  I'd steer very clear of that seller as he is either clueless about his tester or is just being dishonest.



Doesn’t the 421a have double D getters in the base? Co’s I can’t see them in the pics.


----------



## JKDJedi

JTbbb said:


> Doesn’t the 421a have double D getters in the base? Co’s I can’t see them in the pics.


Most all of the 421a were built lower getter, there was a year or two where they were built top getter. (to my limited knowledge, If I wrong, set me straight)


----------



## attmci (Jan 17, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Edit:  If this is what you're looking at:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254831897786?hash=item3b552a2cba:g:L3MAAOSwOrNf~GTK
> 
> be aware that the seller is stating that the test number of 6250 is "new."  On a KS15750 tester, 6250 is MINIMUM, not new.  So with GM readings of 7800 and 7750 that tube is *very* used, and not even close to NOS which would give GM readings closer to 13,000.  I'd steer very clear of that seller as he is either clueless about his tester or is just being dishonest.



First, the seller, "att523", has nothing to do with me. LOL

I cannot confirm the tube is a 421 according to those pictures.

The 421 has bottom getters like this sold by the same person:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WESTERN-ELECTRIC-NOS-421A-TUBE-/254821514462?nma=true&si=nB%2FzJR9YuZ9Zz016ujo6gUxrSSY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

All 421A are clear-top.

I have many 5998s, 5998 clear-top and a couple of 421As. These are my favorite tubes.

The seller sold a lot of WE tubes in the past. $150 is a fair price.


----------



## Pimmsley (Jan 18, 2021)

FYI/FWIW - my 6SA7G/12au7 amp went flying last night off the coffee table (2ft high) when I caught my headphone cable with foot at 2am and It took flight and slammed CFS 6080WC first onto a thin rug covered timber floor while operating..Nooooooooo !
Remarkably it and my cans survived completely intact and unscathed after very close inspection and listening... no microphonics and no ringing or other aftifacts... no internal or external damage...
What blows me away is that the tube took the full force of the impact (weight plus acceleration) on it's head without smashing and the socket chassis screws of the amp that the 6080 sits on prevented the socket from taking the blow so no damage to the tube socket or internals.... I also had my most expensive Brimar in the 'front seat' and the only mark I could find was a scape on the top of the 6080WC tube which mostly buffed out leaving a tiny dot...
YMMV with tube fragility, but I am completely in awe of this little French soldier's endurance and tenacity. Wow !
If my amp was in a proper timber cabinet and not it's temp skid row cardboard box home, I think the result may/would have been very different... so glad my buddy with the wood working skills is hopelessly behind on finishing my cabinet 

The proof...


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> Edit:  If this is what you're looking at:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254831897786?hash=item3b552a2cba:g:L3MAAOSwOrNf~GTK
> 
> be aware that the seller is stating that the test number of 6250 is "new."  On a KS15750 tester, 6250 is MINIMUM, not new.  So with GM readings of 7800 and 7750 that tube is *very* used, and not even close to NOS which would give GM readings closer to 13,000.  I'd steer very clear of that seller as he is either clueless about his tester or is just being dishonest.



Thanks for the alert.


----------



## bcowen

Pimmsley said:


> FYI/FWIW - my 6SA7G/12au7 amp went flying last night off the coffee table (2ft high) when I caught my headphone cable with foot at 2am and It took flight and slammed CFS 6080WC first onto a thin rug covered timber floor while operating..Nooooooooo !
> Remarkably it and my cans survived completely intact and unscathed after very close inspection and listening... no microphonics and no ringing or other aftifacts... no internal or external damage...
> What blows me away is that the tube took the full force of the impact (weight plus acceleration) on it's head without smashing and the socket chassis screws of the amp that the 6080 sits on prevented the socket from taking the blow so no damage to the tube socket or internals.... I also had my most expensive Brimar in the 'front seat' and the only mark I could find was a scape on the top of the 6080WC tube which mostly buffed out leaving a tiny dot...
> YMMV with tube fragility, but I am completely in awe of this little French soldier's endurance and tenacity. Wow !
> ...



Man, what awesome luck!  Normally audio "accidents" don't have such happy endings.    You know I've always wondered about 6080's. Their internal structure is not terribly different than a 6AS7G, yet they always seem heavier even while being smaller in overall dimension. Wondering if they have thicker glass as a general rule?  I accidentally knocked a 6AS7G onto a thick-pile carpeted floor from about 3 feet, and it shattered into pieces instantly. Perhaps the saving grace with yours was that it hit directly on the top of the tube so had the benefit of the linear structure/support of the glass to absorb the impact.  Anyway, glad you're still listening happily!


----------



## JKDJedi

It was me on that Chatham... 😁 #bidwars


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> It was me on that Chatham... 😁 #bidwars



I think someone here probably just unfriended you on Facebook.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> It was me on that Chatham... 😁 #bidwars


As I am literally working on your adapter you bid me up on my first Chatham 6AS7G?!


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> It was me on that Chatham... 😁 #bidwars


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-El...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
This one too? Used 421 for over $270? Wow!


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> As I am literally working on your adapter you bid me up on my first Chatham 6AS7G?!


LMAO.... sorry.. my bad .. if it tests bad ..you can have it ... 😂


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 18, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I think someone here probably just unfriended you on Facebook.


😂😂😂😂 I think I'll add an xtra tube in the thank you box I'm sending to @therremans .. Edit: Well he won one!! Great news!! From the same seller too.. seems like he had a few on auction .


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-Type-421-A-Radio-Audio-Power-Tube-Good-/313375542790?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=kqteQQArJLhV%2BkRG4FQUffFR2ew%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> This one too? Used 421 for over $270? Wow!


That's not to bad really. 80% and mid 50's tube... not bad at all.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> That's not to bad really. 80% and mid 50's tube... not bad at all.


For 421a, a number of ppl prefer to the newer ones. I haven't compared........


----------



## Pimmsley

bcowen said:


> Man, what awesome luck!  Normally audio "accidents" don't have such happy endings.    You know I've always wondered about 6080's. Their internal structure is not terribly different than a 6AS7G, yet they always seem heavier even while being smaller in overall dimension. Wondering if they have thicker glass as a general rule?  I accidentally knocked a 6AS7G onto a thick-pile carpeted floor from about 3 feet, and it shattered into pieces instantly. Perhaps the saving grace with yours was that it hit directly on the top of the tube so had the benefit of the linear structure/support of the glass to absorb the impact.  Anyway, glad you're still listening happily!


 Thank you


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> That's not to bad really. 80% and mid 50's tube... not bad at all.



Other than the fact that 105% and 99% grid emission are not happy things.  Grids are supposed to control electrons, not emit them.   Hopefully that's just clumsily worded and what he's really referring to is the grid voltage, but either way it's not GM (which is industry standard shorthand for mutual transconductance).


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Other than the fact that 105% and 99% grid emission are not happy things.  Grids are supposed to control electrons, not emit them.   Hopefully that's just clumsily worded and what he's really referring to is the grid voltage, but either way it's not GM (which is industry standard shorthand for mutual transconductance).


Hawk eyes..


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Hawk eyes..



LOL!  I've been messing with testers for 20+ years (and refurbing/restoring them for the past 5), and the rampant misinformation and outright BS that exists with these vintage testers just boggles my mind. Some sellers (and tube vendors using them) are just clueless, and others know exactly what they're doing and intentionally perpetuating a fraud. Ebay doesn't care, because honestly they just don't know any better.


----------



## attmci

1951 421A


----------



## attmci

1957 clear-top 5998 (Chatham 2399)


----------



## attmci

1971 421A


----------



## Ripper2860

My WE-421A only has an 052 code. Any idea what mfg year that translates to?


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> My WE-421A only has an 052 code. Any idea what mfg year that translates to?


Picture pls.


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> My WE-421A only has an 052 code. Any idea what mfg year that translates to?


D or O getters?


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 18, 2021)

attmci said:


> 1971 421A


71 had the D getters.. interesting. my 76 has the O.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 18, 2021)

Appears to be a single D or Rectangle getter...


----------



## JKDJedi (Jan 19, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Appears to be a single D or Rectangle getter...


because of the 52...my guess is 1960 (50?)


----------



## Pimmsley (Jan 19, 2021)

Something of a magic sonic pairing here, best of both worlds with solid state clarity and yet silky top end and a huge tubey sounding bottom end with Beyer DT1990 ..
1962 Westinghouse triple mica 12au7 (5814A) and a soviet 1962 Svetlana 6N13S


----------



## mayurs

Does this Mullard 6as7ga look legit? I have only seen mullards 6080


----------



## bcowen

bcowen said:


> Edit:  If this is what you're looking at:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254831897786?hash=item3b552a2cba:g:L3MAAOSwOrNf~GTK
> 
> be aware that the seller is stating that the test number of 6250 is "new."  On a KS15750 tester, 6250 is MINIMUM, not new.  So with GM readings of 7800 and 7750 that tube is *very* used, and not even close to NOS which would give GM readings closer to 13,000.  I'd steer very clear of that seller as he is either clueless about his tester or is just being dishonest.



LOL!  Seems he's relisted it with some 'edited' text on the test data.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254838057507?hash=item3b55882a23:g:L3MAAOSwOrNf~GTK


----------



## UntilThen

Pimmsley said:


> Something of a magic sonic pairing here, best of both worlds with solid state clarity and yet silky top end and a huge tubey sounding bottom end with Beyer DT1990 ..
> 1962 Westinghouse triple mica 12au7 (5814A) and a soviet 1962 Svetlana 6N13S



Ah the Svetlana 6n13s. Still have 6 of them.


----------



## bcowen

mayurs said:


> Does this Mullard 6as7ga look legit? I have only seen mullards 6080



I've never seen a Mullard 6AS7GA, but that doesn't mean they didn't make one.  Not a lot of detail I'm able to gather from the photo you posted, but from what I _can_ see there are a lot of similarities with a plain-Jane RCA 6080:


----------



## gibosi

Ripper2860 said:


> My WE-421A only has an 052 code. Any idea what mfg year that translates to?



My guess is 1950, week 52. I think by 1960, WE was using a four digit code, so 6052.


----------



## gibosi

mayurs said:


> Does this Mullard 6as7ga look legit? I have only seen mullards 6080



Mullard never made the 6AS7GA. And no other Philips subsidiary made this tube. So it is very likely an older Mullard 6080. It would seem that a customer asked Mullard to provide some 6AS7GA. And being eager to please, Mullard simply labeled their 6080 as a 6AS7GA and shipped it out. lol 

It's a shame that the picture isn't better. If so, we might be able to make out the Mullard production code. And the older Mullard 6080s, pictured below to the left, resemble the RCA to some degree. The newer Mullard, more commonly seen, is to the right.


----------



## JKDJedi




----------



## UntilThen

The E on the top row has G and C missing on either side.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> The E on the top row has G and C missing on either side.



Man, your vision is even worse than 20/200.  Do you guys have, like, eye doctors there?


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Man, your vision is even worse than 20/200.  Do you guys have, like, eye doctors there?



Most people sees E, I see GEC and you see GE.


----------



## mayurs (Jan 20, 2021)

So as I continue to search for 6080 tubes I found another one that seems doubtful to me as I have only seen the GEC is greenish paint in the typical GEC font. So is this one in the attached picture a legit GEC 6080?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Pimmsley said:


> Something of a magic sonic pairing here, best of both worlds with solid state clarity and yet silky top end and a huge tubey sounding bottom end with Beyer DT1990 ..
> 1962 Westinghouse triple mica 12au7 (5814A) and a soviet 1962 Svetlana 6N13S




Does your BHC have a problem pushing the 5998?  (I realize this is not a 5998 pictured here).

I just finished getting my BHC back up to speed and when using a 5998 and a 6sn7, it seemed to struggle to sound good or to even get the tubes hot.

When using a plain jane 6080 and 12au7, everything is great and it sounds great, but the 5998 and 6sn7 made it gasp for air.

Does the 5998 require more POWER?

In my Incubus amp the 5998 glows so bright I don't need other lighting (I'm being sarcastic, but you get the drift).  With the BHC, I'd be lucky to see a tiny sparkle of light.


----------



## gibosi (Jan 20, 2021)

mayurs said:


> So as I continue to search for 6080 tubes I found another one that seems doubtful to me as I have only seen the GEC is greenish paint in the typical GEC font. So is this one in the attached picture a legit GEC 6080?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



The text and graphics on tubes manufactured in the same factory changed over the years. And in some cases, the text and graphics were tailored to the customer. For example, tubes for the military versus for civilian use. In the end, it is best to compare construction of the tube you are considering purchasing to one that you know for sure is genuine. However, in this case, unfortunately, the picture is too blurry to make out much detail. The top and bottom mica spacers appear to be correct, but I can't see anything above the top mica.

In the end, the text and graphics on this tube are not abnormal, so it's probably legit. But frankly, I won't buy unless the vendor provides good pictures to allow me to verify that it is what the vendor claims it is.

Good luck!


----------



## Tom-s

mayurs said:


> So as I continue to search for 6080 tubes I found another one that seems doubtful to me as I have only seen the GEC is greenish paint in the typical GEC font. So is this one in the attached picture a legit GEC 6080?





gibosi said:


> The text and graphics on tubes manufactured in the same factory changed over the years. And in some cases, the text and graphics were tailored to the customer. For example, tubes for the military versus for civilian use. In the end, it is best to compare construction of the tube you are considering purchasing to one that you know for sure is genuine. However, in this case, unfortunately, the picture is too blurry to make out much detail. The top and bottom mica spacers appear to be correct, but I can't see anything above the top mica.



To me. It's RCA based on the base and mica's. The RCA grid/plate cooling fins can be spotted on top. And from looking at worn GEC/RCA's in my collection, the pattern of silvering on heavily used tube resembles RCA where it silvers between those cooling fins. On a GEC it would have more dark colored burn marks over the whole glas at the sides of the anodes.


----------



## maxpudding

PsilocybinCube said:


> Does your BHC have a problem pushing the 5998?  (I realize this is not a 5998 pictured here).
> 
> I just finished getting my BHC back up to speed and when using a 5998 and a 6sn7, it seemed to struggle to sound good or to even get the tubes hot.
> 
> ...



The filament current for a 5998 is 2.4A, whereas the 6080 requires 2.5A. So, it shouldn’t be a problem to run the 5998, even with a 6SN7. Probably the pins need to have a bit of a cleaning.


----------



## jonathan c

PsilocybinCube said:


> Does your BHC have a problem pushing the 5998?  (I realize this is not a 5998 pictured here).
> 
> I just finished getting my BHC back up to speed and when using a 5998 and a 6sn7, it seemed to struggle to sound good or to even get the tubes hot.
> 
> ...


I have no issues with my BHC concerning power, dynamic range, musical ease when Tung Sol 5998 and Brimar CV4003 are the tube line-up. Same result with Chatham 6080wb and Brimar CV4003. Could your issue be related to the use of a 6SN7 vs a 12AU7?...


----------



## CADCAM

maxpudding said:


> The filament current for a 5998 is 2.4A, whereas the 6080 requires 2.5A. So, it shouldn’t be a problem to run the 5998, even with a 6SN7. Probably the pins need to have a bit of a cleaning.


Great advise! I couldn't believe the reduction in noise when I took a few of my tubes into work and cleaned the pins under a scope with some fine emery paper. Even though the pins looked to be clean I heard an improvement, especially in some noisy tubes.


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Does your BHC have a problem pushing the 5998?  (I realize this is not a 5998 pictured here).
> 
> I just finished getting my BHC back up to speed and when using a 5998 and a 6sn7, it seemed to struggle to sound good or to even get the tubes hot.
> 
> ...





Measure the voltages in the tube sockets on both amps, and let us know.

Glowing too bright sometimes is not a good thing, tube could be overloaded and has reduced lifespan.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

cddc said:


> Measure the voltages in the tube sockets on both amps, and let us know.
> 
> Glowing too bright sometimes is not a good thing, tube could be overloaded and has reduced lifespan.


Well everyone, the damn 5998 tube was bad.  I tried it in the Incubus and had similarly poor results.  I changed to a Thomson 6080 and the 6sn7, 12bh7, and 12au7 all worked fine.

I happen to know that my 1-year-old was messing with this specific Chatham 5998 and maybe he dropped it or something.  That sucks.  Bye bye $100.

Regarding measuring the voltage in the Incubus, @Paladin79 has instructed me that it is a black box and I'm not to poke around...I don't want to void my warranty!  (Actually, that amp just sounds so damn good I wouldn't alter it!)


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well everyone, the damn 5998 tube was bad.  I tried it in the Incubus and had similarly poor results.  I changed to a Thomson 6080 and the 6sn7, 12bh7, and 12au7 all worked fine.
> 
> I happen to know that my 1-year-old was messing with this specific Chatham 5998 and maybe he dropped it or something.  That sucks.  Bye bye $100.
> 
> Regarding measuring the voltage in the Incubus, @Paladin79 has instructed me that it is a black box and I'm not to poke around...I don't want to void my warranty!  (Actually, that amp just sounds so damn good I wouldn't alter it!)



Dang....sorry to hear that.  You sure it's not maybe just a bad solder joint in one of the pins?  We focus attention on the old Russian tubes (Fotons and Melz), but I've had several Tung Sols with bad pin solder as well.  If you're not comfortable doing it, send it to me and I'll do it, and I can test it for you as well.  It may be a goner after all, but for a $100 tube that is getting difficult to find (at least at decent prices) it may be worth risking $10 in shipping back and forth to find out for sure.


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well everyone, the damn 5998 tube was bad.  I tried it in the Incubus and had similarly poor results.  I changed to a Thomson 6080 and the 6sn7, 12bh7, and 12au7 all worked fine.
> 
> I happen to know that my 1-year-old was messing with this specific Chatham 5998 and maybe he dropped it or something.  That sucks.  Bye bye $100.
> 
> Regarding measuring the voltage in the Incubus, @Paladin79 has instructed me that it is a black box and I'm not to poke around...I don't want to void my warranty!  (Actually, that amp just sounds so damn good I wouldn't alter it!)




If the same 5998 tube glows much brighter in one amp than the other (from your description), the first thing came to my mind is that one amp applies much higher voltage to it. It has nothing to do with the corrosion or solder of the pins. That's why I recommend to measure the voltages.

It's actually not very difficult, you don't have to get inside the amp and poke around (which could be dangerous), just keep the amp untouched as usual and unplug the 5998 tube, then dip the black probe into the ground (the round hole in your power strip - assuming your power strip is U.S. standard)  and the red probe into the holes of the 5998/6080 socket to measure their voltages.


----------



## gibosi

mayurs said:


> So as I continue to search for 6080 tubes I found another one that seems doubtful to me as I have only seen the GEC is greenish paint in the typical GEC font. So is this one in the attached picture a legit GEC 6080?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



If you are looking for GEC 6080, you might want to check this out. The vendor is a member of Head-Fi. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOOK-GEC-6...-Tube-DD-Getter-1964-KB-Z-Tube-3/303855651232

It appears that he has four to sell, but if I understand correctly, the listed price is for one.


----------



## maxpudding (Jan 21, 2021)

Heyya folks, I’d like to ask for some information: did Westinghouse produce this tube? It looks like a Tung-Sol, but I am not sure 🤔 maybe I am wrong to think that it’s a relabeled TS. Any help will be greatly appreciated!


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> Heyya folks, I’d like to ask for some information: did Westinghouse produce this tube? It looks like a Tung-Sol, but I am not sure 🤔 maybe I am wrong to think that it’s a relabeled TS. Any help will be greatly appreciated!



Sure looks like the nice version of the Tung Sol with the metal wing mica supports and the silver edges at the top and bottom of the plates.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> Sure looks like the nice version of the Tung Sol with the metal wing mica supports and the silver edges at the top and bottom of the plates.



Yes, exactly my thoughts too 👍🏼


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> Dang....sorry to hear that.  You sure it's not maybe just a bad solder joint in one of the pins?  We focus attention on the old Russian tubes (Fotons and Melz), but I've had several Tung Sols with bad pin solder as well.  If you're not comfortable doing it, send it to me and I'll do it, and I can test it for you as well.  It may be a goner after all, but for a $100 tube that is getting difficult to find (at least at decent prices) it may be worth risking $10 in shipping back and forth to find out for sure.


I might take you up on that offer.  I actually go to NC (Huntersville) fairly often so I probably get in your neck of the woods.

Again, it's not an Incubus issue, it's the BHC.  And frankly, it may well just be the tube OR the amp.  I need to check the voltages in the BHC and post them on the Bottlehead forums to see what they think.

How do you check voltages on the tube itself? Or are you just testing for connectivity?  In the same way you'd check connections when building a headphone cable?


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I might take you up on that offer.  I actually go to NC (Huntersville) fairly often so I probably get in your neck of the woods.
> 
> Again, it's not an Incubus issue, it's the BHC.  And frankly, it may well just be the tube OR the amp.  I need to check the voltages in the BHC and post them on the Bottlehead forums to see what they think.
> 
> How do you check voltages on the tube itself? Or are you just testing for connectivity?  In the same way you'd check connections when building a headphone cable?



I'd check the tube in my Hickok tester. That will indicate if there's an issue with the tube -- high interelement leakage, low GM (emission) in one or both triodes, etc.  It's also an easy way to see if there's a bad solder connection in one (or more) of the pins -- lightly tapping on the tube will cause the meter needle to be-bop around.


----------



## Velozity (Jan 21, 2021)

gibosi said:


> If you are looking for GEC 6080, you might want to check this out. The vendor is a member of Head-Fi.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOOK-GEC-6...-Tube-DD-Getter-1964-KB-Z-Tube-3/303855651232
> 
> It appears that he has four to sell, but if I understand correctly, the listed price is for one.




Thanks gibosi!  And only two remain.  Also listed on here at an even lower price.  Check my sig.


----------



## mayurs

gibosi said:


> If you are looking for GEC 6080, you might want to check this out. The vendor is a member of Head-Fi.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOOK-GEC-6...-Tube-DD-Getter-1964-KB-Z-Tube-3/303855651232
> 
> It appears that he has four to sell, but if I understand correctly, the listed price is for one.




Thanks for the heads up. But unfortunately missed it by the time I wole up in the morning and I believe the seller was not going to ship internationally. So if any head-fi member who takes paypal and is ready to ship to India, please pm me. Looking for a GEC 6080/6AS7G or something equally good for a Feliks Euforia. I am on stock tubes currently.


----------



## SHIMACM

I'm looking for a Bendix / Chatham 6080 graphite plates to buy. Would anyone have any to sell?


----------



## attmci

From when these tubes are being released as Bendix? These are $10 tubes when Bendix were sold for $85.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCH-PAIR...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## SHIMACM

attmci said:


> From when these tubes are being released as Bendix? These are $10 tubes when Bendix were sold for $85.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCH-PAIR-BENDIX-CEA-JAN-6080WB-5998-6AS7-421A-GRAPHITE-PLATE-TUBES-7-/124539785804?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=kqteQQArJLhV%2BkRG4FQUffFR2ew%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> [/CITAR]
> ...


----------



## SHIMACM

But the internal structure of the tubes is the same as the internal structure of the Bandix. Is not it?


----------



## SHIMACM

Check it out:


----------



## therremans

attmci said:


> From when these tubes are being released as Bendix? These are $10 tubes when Bendix were sold for $85.


The going rate for a Bendix solid graphite plated 6080 (no matter the brand) is about $75. Slotted plates really increase the value up to double the solid plate asking price. There are also metal plated versions so be aware.



SHIMACM said:


> But the internal structure of the tubes is the same as the internal structure of the Bandix. Is not it?


Yes, they are all made by Bendix no matter the branding. It’s the same design. You have a solid or slotted variation of the graphite plate. I saw those two listing of pairs posted this morning but didn’t know you were looking for some. Apologies.


----------



## SHIMACM (Jan 22, 2021)

Oh my friend, don't be sorry.

Incidentally, I bought this pair advertised on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCH-PAIR-BENDIX-CEA-JAN-6080WB-5998-6AS7-421A-GRAPHITE-PLATE-TUBES-7/124539785804?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

It cost me $ 135 + $ 39 in shipping.



Do you think it was a business?

There is a tube that the key was fixed, but it is so difficult to find those pipes that I decided to take a chance.


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> [QUOTE = "therremans, post: 16124104, membro: 537425"]
> O preço atual para um Bendix chapeado de grafite sólido 6080 (não importa a marca) é de cerca de US $ 75. As placas com fenda realmente aumentam o valor até o dobro do preço pedido da placa sólida. Existem também versões chapeadas de metal, por isso esteja ciente.
> 
> 
> ...


I think it was a fair price. The other Bendix branded pair didn’t test much different. He used a basic tester but I think they will work out for you.


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> But the internal structure of the tubes is the same as the internal structure of the Bandix. Is not it?



Yup.


----------



## SHIMACM (Jan 22, 2021)

Is there a difference in sound from graphite slotted plates to solid graphite plates?


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Oh my friend, don't be sorry.
> 
> Incidentally, I bought this pair advertised on ebay.
> 
> ...



A broken guide pin is not a show stopper as long as the glass is intact and is not all that uncommon. Will probably become even more common as these tubes continue to age and the base material gets even more brittle with time. I've broken a couple guide pins myself being careless removing the tube, but since I had the pin I just glued it back on.  Easy enough to see the orientation based on the marks on the tube base where it broke off.  Sounds like they already repaired the one you're getting so no worries, but it never hurts to have a couple of these in the stash bin just in case:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-8-PIN-PO...159498?hash=item4da87badca:g:BbwAAOSw3Y9eZLur


----------



## raindownthunda

SHIMACM said:


> Is there a difference in sound from graphite slotted plates to solid graphite plates?


I've spent a good amount of time with both versions and have not been able to perceive any sonic difference. If anything, the solid graphite plates take a bit longer to warm up to sound their best, but the slotted versions take a good amount of time as well... The solid versions are typically the best value since people want to pay more for the rarity, especially when the pretty red Bendix logo is fully intact


----------



## SHIMACM

bcowen said:


> A broken guide pin is not a show stopper as long as the glass is intact and is not all that uncommon. Will probably become even more common as these tubes continue to age and the base material gets even more brittle with time. I've broken a couple guide pins myself being careless removing the tube, but since I had the pin I just glued it back on.  Easy enough to see the orientation based on the marks on the tube base where it broke off.  Sounds like they already repaired the one you're getting so no worries, but it never hurts to have a couple of these in the stash bin just in case:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-8-PIN-PO...159498?hash=item4da87badca:g:BbwAAOSw3Y9eZLur








Thank you for the link.

I was a little worried, because in the upper mica of the second tube it seems to be cracked.

But as I knew if I didn't buy another one I would buy it, I decided to take a chance.

Does anyone know what is the useful life of Bandix?

I heard that it is a tube that has a longer life than the other 6080. Is it true?


----------



## therremans

SHIMACM said:


> Thank you for the link.
> 
> I was a little worried, because in the upper mica of the second tube it seems to be cracked.
> 
> ...


I also noticed that and was going to mention it to you, but wasn’t sure if it was just the photo. Inspect it and if it’s true, you have a grounds to get a partial refund or whatever the seller decides. I owned one with a badly cracked mica, it was in two pieces. It worked but I returned it


----------



## attmci

SHIMACM said:


> Is there a difference in sound from graphite slotted plates to solid graphite plates?


The Jedi will tell you the difference. At least, I hope so. 

I hate to compare different tubes.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 23, 2021)

cddc said:


> Measure the voltages in the tube sockets on both amps, and let us know.
> 
> Glowing too bright sometimes is not a good thing, tube could be overloaded and has reduced lifespan.


I run 5998's in the Incubus I designed as a standard, the tubes do well in the amp and I use them more than any other. I also studied tube theory in college and certainly understand tube parameters, tube brightness was never discussed.    Oh and I have quite a few of those amps in the hands of people who own 5998's. Tubes can fail and lose vacuum with age, it is part of dealing with them. They have a finite existence. Oh and I donated four of the amps for 6sn7 comparisons and the Tung Sol 5998 has been the power tube in those for nearly two years.

As Mr. Cowen pointed out it is less common on many US tubes but there can be poor solder within tube pins. We are often dealing with tubes that are 50 years old, and older. I just got a pair of power tubes of WW 2 vintage, NOS, original boxes. One was good, the other did not maintain vacuum.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> I run 5998's in the Incubus I designed as a standard, the tubes do well in the amp and I use them more than any other. I also studied tube theory in college and certainly understand tube parameters, tube brightness was never discussed.    Oh and I have quite a few of those amps in the hands of people who own 5998's. Tubes can fail and lose vacuum with age, it is part of dealing with them. They have a finite existence. Oh and I donated four of the amps for 6sn7 comparisons and the Tung Sol 5998 has been the power tube in those for nearly two years.
> 
> As Mr. Cowen pointed out it is less common on many US tubes but there can be poor solder within tube pins. We are often dealing with tubes that are 50 years old, and older. I just got a pair of power tubes of WW 2 vintage, NOS, original boxes. One was good, the other did not maintain vacuum.


I suspect my issue was a tube issue with the BHC.  I replaced the Chatham 5998 with a Chatham 6as7g and also went back to a melz 6sn7 and everything worked fine.  I also tried a 12bh7 and 12au7 and those worked fine, too.  

I've had a TS 5998 stuck in the Incubus for the better part of 2 months and no issues.  I pretty much only roll drivers in that amp now.

Upon closer inspection, the 5998 that had had issues on the BHC does have some broken glass in it, though I know that's not always a deal breaker.  I may try to resolder for grind and giggles and see what happens!

And @cddc I will check voltages and post them in the BHC thread in case that's an issue.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I suspect my issue was a tube issue with the BHC.  I replaced the Chatham 5998 with a Chatham 6as7g and also went back to a melz 6sn7 and everything worked fine.  I also tried a 12bh7 and 12au7 and those worked fine, too.
> 
> I've had a TS 5998 stuck in the Incubus for the better part of 2 months and no issues.  I pretty much only roll drivers in that amp now.
> 
> ...



Not to be unduly risk-averse here, but if there is visible broken glass you could have elements touching each other and/or have shifted close enough together for current to flow between them where it shouldn't (inter-element leakage).  A high current leakage path or a dead short could put the amp at risk depending on how tolerant it is of dealing with such faults. My recommendation would be to get that tube tested (in a tube tester) before risking any further trials in either amp.  Just FWIW.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Not to be unduly risk-averse here, but if there is visible broken glass you could have elements touching each other and/or have shifted close enough together for current to flow between them where it shouldn't (inter-element leakage).  A high current leakage path or a dead short could put the amp at risk depending on how tolerant it is of dealing with such faults. My recommendation would be to get that tube tested (in a tube tester) before risking any further trials in either amp.  Just FWIW.


I am rebuilding my tube tester or I would be glad to help. I started working on mine but other projects got in the way.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> As Mr. Cowen pointed out it is less common on many US tubes but there can be poor solder within tube pins. We are often dealing with tubes that are 50 years old, and older. I just got a pair of power tubes of WW 2 vintage, NOS, original boxes. One was good, the other did not maintain vacuum.



I'm up to 6 Tung Sols (and derivatives like Chatham) now that have had pin solder issues.  I have limited experience with Melz tubes, but usually suspect a Foton before I even plug it in.     I'm beginning to get that same immediate suspicion with Tung Sols.  Maybe just (bad) luck of the draw, but beyond the Fotons and TS's I've had only _*one*_ other tube to date with pin solder issues, and that was a '52 Sylvania Bad Boy.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 23, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I'm up to 6 Tung Sols (and derivatives like Chatham) now that have had pin solder issues.  I have limited experience with Melz tubes, but usually suspect a Foton before I even plug it in.   I'm beginning to get that same immediate suspicion with Tung Sols.  Maybe just (bad) luck of the draw, but beyond the Fotons and TS's I've had only _*one*_ other tube to date with pin solder issues, and that was a '52 Sylvania Bad Boy.


I do have one 5998 that gives me issues in the Incubus, I will have to re-solder the pins later on. Right now I am trying to finish up a lacewood Incubus amp and yes I will use a 5998 in it, with a rare Melz solid plate 1578 for my personal testing. This is a loaner amp so it will most likely go out with RCA 6as7G or Flying C Svetlana and maybe a 50's Foton.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> I'm up to 6 Tung Sols (and derivatives like Chatham) now that have had pin solder issues.  I have limited experience with Melz tubes, but usually suspect a Foton before I even plug it in.   I'm beginning to get that same immediate suspicion with Tung Sols.  Maybe just (bad) luck of the draw, but beyond the Fotons and TS's I've had only _*one*_ other tube to date with pin solder issues, and that was a '52 Sylvania Bad Boy.



I have a number of BG/RP Tung-Sols that have that "shhhh" sound I associate with a poor cathode connection. I suspect mine may need pins re-soldered...


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 23, 2021)

gibosi said:


> I have a number of BG/RP Tung-Sols that have that "shhhh" sound I associate with a poor cathode connection. I suspect mine may need pins re-soldered...


I have been known to help out on occasion, are you talking 6sn7 or 6080 equivalents? Without my tube tester working I have to be careful what I try to do right now. Maybe @bcowen will give me a tube tester out of pure kindness.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> I have been known to help out on occasion, are you talking 6sn7 or 6080 equivalents? Without my tube tester working I have to be careful what I try to do right now. Maybe @bcowen will give me a tube tester out pure kindness.



These are Tung Sol BG/RP 6SN7 types, two are 6SN7 and one is 12SN7. (I can run 6SN7, 12SN7 and 25SN7 using a selector switch).  

And thank you.


----------



## therremans

To contribute to the topic of Tung-Sol pins.. I recently purchased a batch of Tung-Sol made 6080s. All three tested good on a tester but one didn’t initially fire up for me. Which was surprising. I always clean up pins of new arrivals. After removing it and re-inserting.. it fired on but had a weak connection, was making some popping sounds through the headphones. After re-flowing the pin solder, it’s working well and stable.


----------



## cddc

Paladin79 said:


> I run 5998's in the Incubus I designed as a standard, the tubes do well in the amp and I use them more than any other. I also studied tube theory in college and certainly understand tube parameters, tube brightness was never discussed.    Oh and I have quite a few of those amps in the hands of people who own 5998's. Tubes can fail and lose vacuum with age, it is part of dealing with them. They have a finite existence. Oh and I donated four of the amps for 6sn7 comparisons and the Tung Sol 5998 has been the power tube in those for nearly two years.
> 
> As Mr. Cowen pointed out it is less common on many US tubes but there can be poor solder within tube pins. We are often dealing with tubes that are 50 years old, and older. I just got a pair of power tubes of WW 2 vintage, NOS, original boxes. One was good, the other did not maintain vacuum.





PsilocybinCube said:


> I suspect my issue was a tube issue with the BHC.  I replaced the Chatham 5998 with a Chatham 6as7g and also went back to a melz 6sn7 and everything worked fine.  I also tried a 12bh7 and 12au7 and those worked fine, too.
> 
> I've had a TS 5998 stuck in the Incubus for the better part of 2 months and no issues.  I pretty much only roll drivers in that amp now.
> 
> ...




Not sure what causes the difference in glow, but it's definitely not the 5998 tube. If the 5998 has problems, it will glow either dimly or brightly on both amps.

If the same tube glows much brighter on one amp than the other, it's must be the difference between the amps that causes difference in glow.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> If you are looking for GEC 6080, you might want to check this out. The vendor is a member of Head-Fi.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOOK-GEC-6...-Tube-DD-Getter-1964-KB-Z-Tube-3/303855651232
> 
> It appears that he has four to sell, but if I understand correctly, the listed price is for one.



Great testing tubes and a great guy and seller.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> If the same tube glows much brighter on one amp than the other, it's must be the difference between the amps that causes difference in glow.



Or it could be a loose or intermittent connection in one of the filament pins. Gets good contact and a full 6.3v in one amp, and the jostling of moving it between the amps results in a poor connection where the full 6.3v is not getting across the heater in the other.  The fact that two other tubes with the same heater voltage and current draw are working fine in the Crack would lead me to believe its the tube, not the amp.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Or it could be a loose or intermittent connection in one of the filament pins. Gets good contact and a full 6.3v in one amp, and the jostling of moving it between the amps results in a poor connection where the full 6.3v is not getting across the heater in the other.  The fact that two other tubes with the same heater voltage and current draw are working fine in the Crack would lead me to believe its the tube, not the amp.



The other two tubes are not 5998 tubes, the 6080/6AS7G tubes draw different current than 5998 tubes, the 5998 draws less current and runs cooler despite having higher gain than 6080/6AS7G, so we can't compare different tubes.

A loose or intermittent connection is possible, but with a very low possibility I think. If I find a tube glows abnormally bright or dim, I will definitely sit the tube again in order to make sure the connection is okay. I won't report findings if it's just a one-time thing, I will only report findings if it occurs repeatedly, or it's just me...  

I was just intrigued by @PsilocybinCube's comments and curious to know the reason. He said, "In my Incubus amp the 5998 glows *so bright I don't need other lighting* (I'm being sarcastic, but you get the drift). With the BHC, I'd be lucky to see a tiny sparkle of light." Maybe he's just exaggerating / kidding ...


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> The other two tubes are not 5998 tubes, the 6080/6AS7G tubes draw different current than 5998 tubes, the 5998 draws less current and runs cooler despite having higher gain than 6080/6AS7G, so we can't compare different tubes.
> 
> A loose or intermittent connection is possible, but with a very low possibility I think. If I find a tube glows abnormally bright or dim, I will definitely sit the tube again in order to make sure the connection is okay. I won't report findings if it's just a one-time thing, I will only report findings if it occurs repeatedly, or it's just me...
> 
> I was just intrigued by @PsilocybinCube's comments and curious to know the reason. He said, "In my Incubus amp the 5998 glows *so bright I don't need other lighting* (I'm being sarcastic, but you get the drift). With the BHC, I'd be lucky to see a tiny sparkle of light." Maybe he's just exaggerating / kidding ...


Tomorrow I can show you those tubes in two Incubus amps, it is visible but not super bright. Same transformers same filament voltages. Plate voltages are not the same as Crack, there is a range of voltages that can be used.


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> The other two tubes are not 5998 tubes, the 6080/6AS7G tubes draw different current than 5998 tubes, the 5998 draws less current and runs cooler despite having higher gain than 6080/6AS7G, so we can't compare different tubes.



The 5998 draws 2.4 amps and the 6080 draws 2.5 amps. Do you really think this difference is that significant?


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> The 5998 draws 2.4 amps and the 6080 draws 2.5 amps. Do you really think this difference is that significant?


Much ado about nothing comes to mind.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> The 5998 draws 2.4 amps and the 6080 draws 2.5 amps. Do you really think this difference is that significant?




But that's just heater current draws, don't forget they have different gains (5.4 from 5998 vs only 2.0 from 6080) and transconductances, also don't forget the power consumption on the plates (there is much higher voltage there)!!!

They are not the same tube, so you can't directly compare them. I think the gurus from BHC threads mentioned 5998 runs cooler than 6080/6AS7G.

Comparing different glows from different tubes won't tell you anything, but comparing the glows of the same tube on different amps will tell you something!!!


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> don't forget the power consumption on the plates (there is much higher voltage there)!!!



It's my understanding that the output tube plate voltage is simply B+. And this is determined by the designer of the amp, and if one is rolling tube rectifiers, voltage drop. In my amp, B+ is easily measured with a volt meter between pin 2 and ground. I use the headphone jack outer shell for ground. It's my understanding that B+ would be the same with a 6AS7 and 5998. But if I misunderstand, I hope someone will correct me. lol


----------



## Paladin79

cddc said:


> But that's just heater current draws, don't forget they have different gains (5.4 from 5998 vs only 2.0 from 6080) and transconductances, also don't forget the power consumption on the plates (there is much higher voltage there)!!!
> 
> They are not the same tube, so you can't directly compare them. I think the gurus from BHC threads mentioned 5998 runs cooler than 6080/6AS7G.
> 
> Comparing different glows from different tubes won't tell you anything, but comparing the glows of the same tube on different amps will tell you something!!!


It is a little late in the day to get into AC or DC filament supplies and thermionic emission. I use AC filament voltage.  Amount of glow is better applied to types of light bulbs.


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> It's my understanding that the output tube plate voltage is simply B+. And this is determined by the designer of the amp, and if one is rolling tube rectifiers, voltage drop. In my amp, B+ is easily measured with a volt meter between pin 2 and ground. I use the headphone jack outer shell for ground. It's my understanding that B+ would be the same with a 6AS7 and 5998. But if I misunderstand, I hope someone will correct me. lol



B+ is just high voltage applied to the plates, but how much current the plates draw will depend on the plate resistance (5998 and 6080 obviously have different plate resistances) and biasing of the tube on different amps. Same B+ voltage applied to 5998 or 6080/6AS7G doesn't imply they will draw the same plate current. As different tubes they will draw different plate currents.


----------



## cddc

Paladin79 said:


> It is a little late in the day to get into AC or DC filament supplies and thermionic emission. I use AC filament voltage.  Amount of glow is better applied to types of light bulbs.




LOL...that's the first thing came to my mind when  @PsilocybinCube said he needs no other lighting


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> B+ is just high voltage applied to the plates, but how much current the plates draw will depend on the plate resistance (5998 and 6080 obviously have different plate resistances) and biasing of the tube on different amps. Same B+ voltage applied to 5998 or 6080/6AS7G doesn't imply they will draw the same plate current. As different tubes they will draw different plate currents.



Well, first you say it's all about heater current. Then you say it's all about plate voltage. And now you say it's all about plate current?

Well, in my amp plate current is 100 ma, by design, for a 6AS7 or a 5998 or a 6336 or a pair of 6080 in parallel. B+ is the same and the current available at the plate is the same.

OK, I'm done here.


----------



## maxpudding

Guys, let’s all calm down here, I believe everyone is correct to some levels. Cheers and have a good weekend 

Enjoy listening to some music


----------



## PsilocybinCube

cddc said:


> LOL...that's the first thing came to my mind when @PsilocybinCube said he needs no other lighting


Sorry for the exaggeration on needing no other lighting.  And yes, I was using hyperbole.  Also, I should note that it wasn't actually the exact same tube that glows the same in two different amps (but I understand why it sounded that way).

My 5998 in the Incubus glows brightly.  The 5998 wasn't glowing much at all in the BHC.  However, those were two _different _5998s (Chatham in the BHC, TS in the Incubus).  Replacing that 5998 in the BHC fixed things up nicely.  

Didn't mean to start a controversy!  Chalk this up to a bad 5998 tube and me not communicating the issue with appropriate specificity!  My initial thought was that the tube was good and the amp was the issue...I was wrong about that.

@cddc I will ping you when I measure/post the voltages on the BHC.  I'll post those in the BHC forum.


----------



## Paladin79

Back to amp building for me, I want to finish an Incubus before the NFL games today. As I said earlier I have worked with some BH Cracks, but I knew before I touched the first one what I would change about it. This was my first build. I used their power transformer, that may be about it lol. What I prefer using on the Incubus is Russian military made and at least double the size of that transformer. I am running a 5998.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Back to amp building for me, I want to finish an Incubus before the NFL games today. As I said earlier I have worked with some BH Cracks, but I knew before I touched the first one what I would change about it. This was my first build. I used their power transformer, that may be about it lol. What I prefer using on the Incubus is Russian military made and at least double the size of that transformer. I am running a 5998.



I've never had (or heard) a Crack.  But in the Incubus, I'm kind of stuck on the (solid) graphite plate Bendix 6080.  I like the TS 5998 quite well too, and there are a couple other output tubes that reach deeper into midrange harmonics and detail. But for rock and roll (and especially Marilyn Manson ) the Bendix rocks me like no other even though I hate having to wait 15 minutes for the thing to fully warm up each time.  I've not yet tried a slotted graphite plate and would like to try one at some point even if the difference is minor, so there's a chance I still might buy _*one*_ more tube in the future.


----------



## attmci (Jan 24, 2021)

Found a 6as7g (no t) tube in a junk box.


----------



## Ripper2860

I don't see any tube, so I fixed it for you...



attmci said:


> Finally found my 'blunt' in a 6as7gt junk box.


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't see any tube, so I fixed it for you...



Old collection. Nothing special.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> Found a 6as7gt tube in a junk box.



What's a 6AS7G*T* ?


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> What's a 6AS7G*T* ?




Fixed.


----------



## Paladin79

I just completed the latest Incubus. Tung Sol 6080 and 5998. I turned off a lamp on the right side to show "glow" from a 5998.




.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

That 


Paladin79 said:


> I just completed the latest Incubus. Tung Sol 6080 and 5998. I turned off a lamp on the right side to show "glow" from a 5998.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The lace wood is beautiful.  I'm going to attempt o build a copy of the Salire stand from ZMF to match my BHC with my remaining lacewood.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> That
> 
> 
> The lace wood is beautiful.  I'm going to attempt o build a copy of the Salire stand from ZMF to match my BHC with my remaining lacewood.


Down the road I hope to include matching headphone stands with a couple of my amps. I will most likely incorporate some of my wife's pottery work.
I have already done stands with tubes.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Down the road I hope to include matching headphone stands with a couple of my amps. I will most likely incorporate some of my wife's pottery work.
> I have already done stands with tubes.


Definitely not fair for one family to house so much talent!

BTW is that a portrait of her spouse, the distinguished @Paladin79?


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> Definitely not fair for one family to house so much talent!
> 
> BTW is that a portrait of her spouse, the distinguished @Paladin79?


It is probably more of a caricature but yes, I am going for the Wilford Brimley look.😺


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> That
> 
> 
> The lace wood is beautiful.  I'm going to attempt o build a copy of the Salire stand from ZMF to match my BHC with my remaining lacewood.



I've been saving this to make a matching headphone stand for my Incubus:


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I've been saving this to make a matching headphone stand for my Incubus:


Maybe I can help bring it some class.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Maybe I can help bring it some class.



Do you have that available in cardboard?  You know I'm a stickler for things matching properly.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Do you have that available in cardboard?  You know I'm a stickler for things matching properly.


😂   In all seriousness I probably do have more mineral poplar, similar to your amp case. It is one step above tulip poplar but less colors than rainbow poplar. This is rainbow.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I just completed the latest Incubus. Tung Sol 6080 and 5998. I turned off a lamp on the right side to show "glow" from a 5998.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice build. Would you want to use two 6bl7 with an adapter instead of the 5998/6080?


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Nice build. Would you want to use two 6bl7 with an adapter instead of the 5998/6080?


I would have to check the filament current on those but I am open to trying different combinations.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

I bought a 421a/5998 to try with the BHC so I can put the issue to rest!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-42...7?pageci=a0265a14-3e6c-44c5-aead-012395865607


----------



## bcowen (Jan 24, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I would have to check the filament current on those but I am open to trying different combinations.



This is pushing all the buttons tonight.  Graphite Chatham 6080 and Hytron 7A4's.  Might just go ahead and solder them in place.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This is pushing all the buttons tonight.  Graphite Bendix 6080 and Hytron 7A4's.  Might just go ahead and solder them in place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Nice looking sideways amp



Yeah, some guy I know built it but I have no idea why he builds all the others with stuff sticking out of the end instead.


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> @cddc I will ping you when I measure/post the voltages on the BHC.  I'll post those in the BHC forum.




I'm just an ordinary Crack user, I have no idea how the amp is designed and where all the measurements are.

Best to ask Paul & Paul or Doc B. on the BHC forum, they are the designers / experts of Crack. They know what measurements are appropriate.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> This is pushing all the buttons tonight.  Graphite Chatham 6080 and Hytron 7A4's.  Might just go ahead and solder them in place.



So you wrapped some copper foil on the Deyan adapter, looks good.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> So you wrapped some copper foil on the Deyan adapter, looks good.



Actually that was an adapter for different tubes originally, but all I had for 7A4's was a China adapter with some super-crap sockets. So I got some nice NOS Cinch loctal sockets and reconfigured the Deyan box. I was getting a low-level buzz in the Incubus with the China adapter (likely due to poor pin connections with the cruddy sockets), but with this re-done one the background is dead quiet.


----------



## cddc

LOL...so you modded the Deyan adapter


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> I bought a 421a/5998 to try with the BHC so I can put the issue to rest!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-42...7?pageci=a0265a14-3e6c-44c5-aead-012395865607



I believe @bcowen has Western Electric 421A’s yet he sings the praises of Bendix 6080’s.


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I would have to check the filament current on those but I am open to trying different combinations.


https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=663.1335

Previous discussion (on a Crack). I can confirm they work very well. But I need to shield the transformer which I don't think it's a problem for your amp.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=663.1335
> 
> Previous discussion (on a Crack). I can confirm they work very well. But I need to shield the transformer which I don't think it's a problem for your amp.


Great info,  thanks


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I believe @bcowen has Western Electric 421A’s yet he sings the praises of Bendix 6080’s.



The 421A is more like an expensive ticket to the good seats in a nice concert hall, donning a tuxedo and having heavy hors d'oeuvres and fine wine prior to seating for the world-class symphony performance.  The Bendix/Chatham is more of the smoke filled arena full of drunk, stoned, and otherwise incapacitated people standing 3 feet away from a horn-loaded pro-speaker playing at 130 dB and partying until they pass out right before they drive home.  There's obviously no question which is better.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> The 421A is more like an expensive ticket to the good seats in a nice concert hall, donning a tuxedo and having heavy hors d'oeuvres and fine wine prior to seating for the world-class symphony performance.  The Bendix/Chatham is more of the smoke filled arena full of drunk, stoned, and otherwise incapacitated people standing 3 feet away from a horn-loaded pro-speaker playing at 130 dB and partying until they pass out right before they drive home.  There's obviously no question which is better.


Well said.
The Bendix for songs like Jersey Girl, Springsteen singing a Tom Waits classic.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well said.
> The Bendix for songs like Jersey Girl, Springsteen singing a Tom Waits classic.



And of course:


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> And of course:


I take back what I said before. Your taste is in your mouth.    I do have some of those CBS Hytrons I believe, courtesy of @Old Deaf Donkey, a man of class and style. You should try to emulate him more and send me a WE 421A for security against future Incubus repair. That tube is wasted on you just like youth is wasted on the young.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I take back what I said before. Your taste is in your mouth.    I do have some of those CBS Hytrons I believe, courtesy of @Old Deaf Donkey, a man of class and style. You should try to emulate him more and send me a WE 421A for security against future Incubus repair. That tube is wasted on you just like youth is wasted on the young.



ROFL!  

FWIW, the Hytrons I'm listening to are labeled *just* Hytron.  No CBS, which is the pairing I'm much more used to seeing.  These have round plates that are a very dark matte gray (not black, but much darker than usual gray plates), a 3/4 circle bottom mica, a rectangular top mica with 4 spikes (two on each short end contacting the glass). I cannot see the getter in any of the ones I have. It is totally obscured by the top mica, and the flashing comes down about 3/4's of the way inside each tube.  For all I know these were made by Sylvania, but there are no other marking to identify them with.  I have some other Sylvanias but just haven't gotten around to compare them and see if there are commonalities.  I sure do like them though.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> This is pushing all the buttons tonight.  Graphite Chatham 6080 and Hytron 7A4's.  Might just go ahead and solder them in place.



I always wonder how did @Paladin79 created the rusty and greenish look on the metal chassis. Some tips would be greatly appreciated


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> And of course:



I think we do share same taste of musics

and I wholeheartedly agree bendix/tung sol 6080 is the right power tubes for those type of songs


----------



## Paladin79

maxpudding said:


> I always wonder how did @Paladin79 created the rusty and greenish look on the metal chassis. Some tips would be greatly appreciated


That top plate is copper and I added patina.

You can use salt and vinegar or ammonia. You clean the copper, spray it with a salt and water mixture and sprinkle salt over the top. You then put the copper on a rack inside a plastic box with a lid and pour in the ammonia or vinegar underneath the rack without pouring it on the copper plate. Let it set 24 hours and you have a copper patina. Wash gently with water, allow to dry, and then seal it with a clear lacquer to maintain the color. You can brush it lightly to knock off excess before drying and sealing.

I want to say vinegar gives more of a green appearance and ammonia blue but type of salt used is a factor. I often use sea salt and that gives some real deep blues. This is the top of my personal Incubus amp before I added pots and finished the cabinet. That is 1/8 inch solid copper that weighs right at two pounds. Bill's has a layer of copper over another material but it still takes patina well. Be careful using ammonia, I tend to work with it outside during nice weather or in a shed. I used copper supports for the ladder pots and added patina to those as well. I did add a copper faraday cage as a transformer cover but changed that out later on. I want to build one from solid copper.


----------



## maxpudding

Paladin79 said:


> That top plate is copper and I added patina.
> 
> You can use salt and vinegar or ammonia. You clean the copper, spray it with a salt and water mixture and sprinkle salt over the top. You then put the copper on a rack inside a plastic box with a lid and pour in the ammonia or vinegar underneath the rack without pouring it on the copper plate. Let it set 24 hours and you have a copper patina. Wash gently with water, allow to dry, and then seal it with a clear lacquer to maintain the color. You can brush it lightly to knock off excess before drying and sealing.
> 
> I want to say vinegar gives more of a green appearance and ammonia blue but type of salt used is a factor. I often use sea salt and that gives some real deep blues. This is the top of my personal Incubus amp before I added pots and finished the cabinet. That is 1/8 inch solid copper that weighs right at two pounds. Bill's has a layer of copper over another material but it still takes patina well. Be careful using ammonia, I tend to work with it outside during nice weather or in a shed. I used copper supports for the ladder pots and added patina to those as well. I did add a copper faraday cage as a transformer cover but changed that out later on. I want to build one from solid copper.



Thank you very much, kind sir! I shall keep that in my notes. Those pattern and colours are beautiful.


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> I always wonder how did @Paladin79 created the rusty and greenish look on the metal chassis. Some tips would be greatly appreciated



The top plate on my amp was done by @Paladin79 . I did the transformer cover (which was black originally) with some copper particle paint and patina solution. As you can see it approximates the color of the 'real' process @Paladin79 used on the top plate, but doesn't get that 3D look or depth to it.  I don't think there's any way to get the genuine patina look with any kind of paint....you have to use real copper.  The top plate of the adapter is also copper that I cut to fit, and then put some of the patina solution on it.  It'll get a little darker as it sits for a bit longer.  I tried some of the patina solution on the copper foil tape around the outside of the adapter, and it just turned it black.    There's obviously some kind of coating on that foil tape to keep its shiny copper appearance and that's probably interfering chemically with the patina solution.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009JNERS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
(I got the 6 oz bottle of the above which was around $13)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I1VF0K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> I think we do share same taste of musics



See @Paladin79 ?  I'm not the _only_ one here with impeccable musical taste.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> The top plate on my amp was done by @Paladin79 . I did the transformer cover (which was black originally) with some copper particle paint and patina solution. As you can see it approximates the color of the 'real' process @Paladin79 used on the top plate, but doesn't get that 3D look or depth to it.  I don't think there's any way to get the genuine patina look with any kind of paint....you have to use real copper.  The top plate of the adapter is also copper that I cut to fit, and then put some of the patina solution on it.  It'll get a little darker as it sits for a bit longer.  I tried some of the patina solution on the copper foil tape around the outside of the adapter, and it just turned it black.    There's obviously some kind of coating on that foil tape to keep its shiny copper appearance and that's probably interfering chemically with the patina solution.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009JNERS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
> (I got the 6 oz bottle of the above which was around $13)
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I1VF0K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1



Ah I see, thanks! I was wondering what if I could use some copper particle paint and add the patina solution just to quickly try it out..so it seems that it can be done, but the outcome won’t have the same quality as the pure copper plates. Probably I could add a couple more layers of copper particles and see whether that could give more depth...

Anyways, I digress, should keep this on-topic, thank you, both of you 🙏🏻😊


----------



## PsilocybinCube

OK everyone.  Time to tell me if I'm totally crazy or if I got a totally crazy good deal.

I bought a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates off ebay in honor of @bcowen .  This particular tube cost me a whopping $40.  Why?  Well...because of the nice crack in the plate that looks like the San Andreas fault.  

I've plugged it into the BHC and let it warm up.  I first plugged in a set of throwaway headphones...inky black background, music sounded great.  Like, this is a really great tube.  Big improvement over the 6as7g I had plugged in.  The top of the tube has a spot on it from the heat...not sure if that matters.

Anyway, I'm kind of just letting the tube cook for a minute before I plug in my new ZMF Eikons and give it a proper listen.

Am I making a mistake even running this thing???


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> See @Paladin79 ?  I'm not the _only_ one here with impeccable musical taste.


yeah yeah, whatever. Enjoy your disco/polka music.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 25, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> OK everyone.  Time to tell me if I'm totally crazy or if I got a totally crazy good deal.
> 
> I bought a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates off ebay in honor of @bcowen .  This particular tube cost me a whopping $40.  Why?  Well...because of the nice crack in the plate that looks like the San Andreas fault.
> 
> ...


Personally I think you are fine running the tube. That is a used tube I would think and I know as some metals heat they change colors like a rainbow, that appears to be happening with the getter material. Just keep it in the Crack a while to play it safe lol, if that is a stock Crack I can most likely change out all parts for less than the cost of one of the output caps in the Incubus.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> Personally I think you are fine running the tube. That is a used tube I would think and I know as some metals heat they change colors like a rainbow, that appears to be happening with the getter material. Just keep it in the Crack a while to play it safe lol, if that is a stock Crack I can most likely change out all parts for less than the cost of one of the output caps in the Incubus.


Those output caps in the Incubus are only expensive because @bcowen told me to make you use the expensive ones when I asked the other Incubus owners what they would want in a fresh build.  I seem to remember you subtly cursing him for that...

And yes, the BHC is more or less a test bench at this point.  And I have a Sennheiser HDVA600 accompanying the BHC that I use for A/B comparisons to solid state.

Only primo tubes hit my amp at home


----------



## Ripper2860

PsilocybinCube said:


> OK everyone.  Time to tell me if I'm totally crazy or if I got a totally crazy good deal.
> 
> I bought a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates off ebay in honor of @bcowen .  This particular tube cost me a whopping $40.  Why?  Well...because of the nice crack in the plate that looks like the San Andreas fault.
> 
> ...



As long as you are wearing a bomb defusing suit and and approach it carefully using a robot to insert and remove the tube, you should be fine.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 25, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Those output caps in the Incubus are only expensive because @bcowen told me to make you use the expensive ones when I asked the other Incubus owners what they would want in a fresh build.  I seem to remember you subtly cursing him for that...
> 
> And yes, the BHC is more or less a test bench at this point.  And I have a Sennheiser HDVA600 accompanying the BHC that I use for A/B comparisons to solid state.
> 
> Only primo tubes hit my amp at home


Bill thinks he has expensive caps in his but the cardboard case is the expensive part of his amp along with the sorbothane I stapled to the inside of the box. 

I generally use oil filled Mundorfs and yours got the same top quality Mundorf caps as Bill's, he bought his own and donated other parts to his build, oh and I had to build his sideways. I am sure he came from a fine home but along the way, he developed some ways about him that are just not right.  (quoting Tom Waits)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 25, 2021)

I hope @Paladin79 does not get upset with me, but I've managed to secure images of the caps used in @bcowen 's HP amp build.  




Keep it on the down-low.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> OK everyone.  Time to tell me if I'm totally crazy...



Yes, you are.  But not specifically due to that tube.  

The crack you're referring to is this?  (in the bottom ceramic spacer -- not calling it a "mica" 'cause I don't think those are made of mica in the graphite plate tubes)  





If so, that tube may fall apart tomorrow or could last for another 50 years.   I'd just handle it with extra care, and keep an eye on that crack that it doesn't start separating more or the two sides start to become misaligned with each other.  If it stays the same visually, enjoy it!!  And I wouldn't get all paranoid about it...just take a quick look at it when you fire the amp up each time.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Those output caps in the Incubus are only expensive because @bcowen told me to make you use the expensive ones when I asked the other Incubus owners what they would want in a fresh build.  I seem to remember you subtly cursing him for that...



You should be thanking me 'cause @Paladin79 would have otherwise probably put in some used electrolytics he pulled out of an old toaster oven.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I hope @Paladin79 does not get upset with me, but I've managed to secure images of the caps used in @bcowen 's HP amp build.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep it on the down-low.



ROFL!

But you uploaded the wrong photo.  These are the caps @Paladin79 put in my Incubus.  One for the left channel, one for the right, and one to engage turbo mode for Manson tunes.


----------



## bcowen (Jan 25, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I am sure he came from a fine home.....



The home I came from _was_ a cardboard box. It was a double-wide though.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should be thanking me 'cause @Paladin79 would have otherwise probably put in some used electrolytics he pulled out of an old toaster oven.


I wanted to fit a bucket capacitor into your amp Bill but you would have probably tapped into the oil to resupply the oil you burn in the Mazda.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Well...to be clear @bcowen the crack does run along both sides.

But hey.  It sounds great.  Rocking out to Illiterate Light right now.  This is a great rock n' roll tube.

It will probably explode in a truly rock n' roll moment akin to a lead guitarist breaking his guitar on stage.


----------



## therremans

I purchased this one a few months back and returned it because I could not test the tube. I think it’s the same one.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 25, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well...to be clear @bcowen the crack does run along both sides.
> 
> But hey.  It sounds great.  Rocking out to Illiterate Light right now.  This is a great rock n' roll tube.
> 
> It will probably explode in a truly rock n' roll moment akin to a lead guitarist breaking his guitar on stage.



WAIT!!!   If the tube explodes it will create a tear in the space time continuum and all life as we know it will have something really terrible happen to it!!   

Never mind.  I looked it up and a cracked tube in a Crack amp is fine. It seems that the cracks cancel each other out. 


(Sorry.  It's the best I could come up with between work e-mails.)


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I wanted to fit a bucket capacitor into your amp Bill but you would have probably tapped into the oil to resupply the oil you burn in the Mazda.



Well, the oil would have probably soaked through the cardboard in pretty short order, so thanks for putting that in @Ripper2860 's amp instead of mine.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Well, the oil would have probably soaked through the cardboard in pretty short order, so thanks for putting that in @Ripper2860 's amp instead of mine.


I am taking special care to use maple on the amp bottoms since it is the best sounding wood. I believe Bill invented maple wood.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 25, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I am taking special care to use maple on the amp bottoms since it is the best sounding wood. I believe Bill invented maple wood.



Close. I believe Maple was actually Bill's illegitimate offspring from a drunken encounter with a Prickly Pear Cactus at Burning Man.  😏


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well...to be clear @bcowen the crack does run along both sides.
> 
> But hey.  It sounds great.  Rocking out to Illiterate Light right now.  This is a great rock n' roll tube.
> 
> It will probably explode in a truly rock n' roll moment akin to a lead guitarist breaking his guitar on stage.



Ooooohhhh....if that's the tube @therremans had, then that's not a crack (I mean the tube ), that's the San Andreas fault.  LOL!  You're aware of course that the spacing between the elements in a tube is critical, and if two elements get close enough to each other to create an electrical pathway (they don't even have to touch necessarily) that could be bad.  Certainly don't mean to rain on the parade, and perhaps the other two ceramic spacers up top will keep things in proper place by themselves.  Those tubes were made to be extremely rugged, so there's that.  Hopefully all will be well for a long time to come, just be aware of the risk.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> Ooooohhhh....if that's the tube @therremans had, then that's not a crack (I mean the tube ), that's the San Andreas fault.  LOL!  You're aware of course that the spacing between the elements in a tube is critical, and if two elements get close enough to each other to create an electrical pathway (they don't even have to touch necessarily) that could be bad.  Certainly don't mean to rain on the parade, and perhaps the other two ceramic spacers up top will keep things in proper place by themselves.  Those tubes were made to be extremely rugged, so there's that.  Hopefully all will be well for a long time to come, just be aware of the risk.


I think it is the same tube because I followed the listing the first time.

I figure I'll run it for another day or two and then sub it out when the new 5998 comes in.

It's a shame because it sounds really amazing paired with the Melz driver.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I think it is the same tube because I followed the listing the first time.
> 
> I figure I'll run it for another day or two and then sub it out when the new 5998 comes in.
> 
> It's a shame because it sounds really amazing paired with the Melz driver.



You should try it with a ribbed Foton.  Makes that Melz sound like a GE.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> You should try it with a ribbed Foton.  Makes that Melz sound like a GE.


Blasphemy!!!!! Jerk!!!!!🙀🙀🙀🙀


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Blasphemy!!!!! Jerk!!!!!🙀🙀🙀🙀



I was wondering if you'd notice that.  LOLOL!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I was wondering if you'd notice that.  LOLOL!!


Lol, I passed on some Bendix 6080’s a while back, I should have grabbed them. I tried a Chatham 6080 with a Melz but it seemed much too bright, back to 5998’s and 6AS7G’s for me.


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I think it is the same tube because I followed the listing the first time.
> 
> I figure I'll run it for another day or two and then sub it out when the new 5998 comes in.
> 
> It's a shame because it sounds really amazing paired with the Melz driver.



I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. After all this tube was designed to operate in extreme environments, for example, a military tank during wartime. But I suspect your home is a very safe place for tubes, and the broken ceramic spacer won't matter at all. But of course, if you decide to install it into an all-terrain vehicle and drive up and down mountains at full speed, the tube might not last all that long.


----------



## attmci (Jan 25, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> OK everyone.  Time to tell me if I'm totally crazy or if I got a totally crazy good deal.
> 
> I bought a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates off ebay in honor of @bcowen .  This particular tube cost me a whopping $40.  Why?  Well...because of the nice crack in the plate that looks like the San Andreas fault.
> 
> ...



I stared at both Bendix 6080WB and  Chatham 6080WB last weekend. I can tell the Bendix 6080WB is a much better build tube. Period.

I believe this is the rebranded one you guys are looking for:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/711872...m-tube-graphite?ref=shop_home_active_41&frs=1


----------



## therremans

attmci said:


> I stared at both Bendix 6080WB and  Chatham 6080WB last weekend. I can tell the Bendix 6080WB is a much better build tube. Period.


Cool story, care to share any photos or more information that led to this epiphany?


----------



## attmci

therremans said:


> Cool story, care to share any photos or more information that led to this epiphany?


I am not going to argue with the others. LOL

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-319#post-15693740


----------



## therremans (Jan 25, 2021)

attmci said:


> I am not going to argue with the others. LOL
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-319#post-15693740


I went to the link and read a few pages. Not sure what you are saying. Can you use your own words?

Since all of the graphite plated 6080s were made by Bendix. Are you disputing that? If not, are you under the impression that the Chatham branded tube made by Bendix was designated as lower quality? Can you see this visually? Or do you think it has it's own design?


----------



## attmci (Jan 25, 2021)

therremans said:


> I went to the link and read a few pages. Not sure what you are saying. Can you use your own words?
> 
> Since all of the graphite plated 6080s were made by Bendix. Are you disputing that? If not, are you under the impression that the Chatham branded tube made by Bendix was designated as lower quality? Can you see this visually? Or do you think it has it's own design?


All Bendix tubes are made in red bank Division, Eatontown, New Jersey. Chatham/Tung sol did rebranded the Bendix. However, they may also made their own version like the 6094 tube.

I can hear the difference between the Bendix 6080WB and the Chatham 6080WB I had. But I have no interest to argue here (due to everyone has different headphone, amp, dac, favorites etc.).

Enjoy your music.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> All Bendix tubes are made in red bank Division, Eatontown, New Jersey. Chatham/Tung sol did rebranded the Bendix. However, they may also made their own version like the 6094 tube.
> 
> I can hear the difference between the Bendix 6080WB and the Chatham 6080WB I had. But I have no interest to argue here (due to everyone has different headphone, amp, dac, favorites etc.).
> 
> Enjoy your music.



What possible correlation is there between a noval-base single pentode with steel plates (6094) and the octal base dual triode with graphite plates under discussion?

What were the emission or GM levels of the Bendix and Chatham you listened to?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. After all this tube was designed to operate in extreme environments, for example, a military tank during wartime. But I suspect your home is a very safe place for tubes, and the broken ceramic spacer won't matter at all. But of course, if you decide to install it into an all-terrain vehicle and drive up and down mountains at full speed, the tube might not last all that long.


I appreciate that vote of confidence.  I'm still rocking it.  And while I'm considering installing it on my mountain bike's headphone amp and riding, I'll probably just leave it in my amp at work.  I work in finance and am in the most white-collar & gentle environment you can imagine.


I rock out to the Maggies when I want to go two channel.  This room adjoins my office and is where I meet with my clients.  As everything is basically happening virtually or by phone call right now, I can pull the speakers out from the wall and go bonkers.  Of course, by bonkers, that usually means the Charlie Brown soundtrack or Dave Brubeck or something.  That way my staff doesn't think I'm too weird.

Now maybe I need a tube amp for these babies instead of the Outlaw 2160????


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Of course, by bonkers, that usually means the Charlie Brown soundtrack or Dave Brubeck or something.  That way my staff doesn't think I'm too weird.



I'm guessing that rules out Marilyn Manson then?  



PsilocybinCube said:


> Now maybe I need a tube amp for these babies instead of the Outlaw 2160????



Maybe?  

Seriously, I've heard an Outlaw amp before (don't remember the model number) and thought it to be a pretty nice sounding amp really.  Which Maggies are those?  Some need a pretty beefy tube amp to drive them due to low impedance dips.  I wish I had an office with Maggies.  LOL!!


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm guessing that rules out Marilyn Manson then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can be of no help with my current design of a speaker amp, too little power to push speakers with that sensitivity. 94-100 works well though.    (my amp formerly known as the Cowen).


----------



## therremans

*Chatham/Tung-Sol - Solder Issue




JAN-CAHG 6080WA*

I recently received three Chatham 6080s that all tested well/balanced from the seller using a TV-7A/U (36/36 min.). 74/74, 74/74 and 76/76. I ran each through my amplifier to make sure all were sounding well. I had no issues with the 74 rated pair but the 76 did not power on. I tapped on the base just slightly a few times and got it to glow. This wasn't a good sign and it was making some consistent crackles when tested through headphones. I shut it down and reheated all of the pins. The 76 rated tube was now firing up every time and the crackles were now gone. Job done?

A week later, I put the same tube back in last night and the crackles were back and would get better/worse if I applied a little pressure on the tube in different directions. This immediately told me that it's likely the solder in the pins. I recall the solder not really melting anymore when heated up, it would just smoke but no visible melting point. Soldering iron is set to 480 degrees (max) which is what I leave it on for pins. It shouldn't have been due to corrosion or dirt as I cleaned the pins up well like normal, it just seemed like it was old or bad solder. So, I decided to replace the solder in the pins. When sucking out the the old solder, it was very clear that there was truly a miniscule amount at the end of each tip. Maybe this was common and the solder is just old. I can assume the pins were likely on the dry side and there was not great contact with the old solder at the very end of the pin tips. I used some flux cored solder (Kester 44 Rosin Flux) so those pins have something to grab onto. After some hours no issues. Seems to be in good working order again.

Has anyone else experienced this with Tung-Sol or Chatham tubes of this era? The 76 rated tube that had the issue was from 1959, 19th week. The other two were late 60' and early 61'.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> What possible correlation is there between a noval-base single pentode with steel plates (6094) and the octal base dual triode with graphite plates under discussion?
> 
> What were the emission or GM levels of the Bendix and Chatham you listened to?


There are two versions of 6094.


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> *Chatham/Tung-Sol - Solder Issue
> 
> JAN-CAHG 6080WA*
> 
> ...



I've run across several TungSols with bad pin solder.  Or maybe more correctly stated: I've run across several TungSols with problems that were fixed after resoldering the pins.


----------



## Paladin79

therremans said:


> *Chatham/Tung-Sol - Solder Issue
> 
> JAN-CAHG 6080WA*
> 
> ...


I have one that looks pretty iffy but so far it has worked fine. There is rosin in the core of solder but normally it is applied to fairly new metal and you are dealing with metal that is 60 years old. I use extra liquid solder flux inside each pin for a more thorough cleansing. I have seen solder flow around the center wire and still not make good contact because of oxidation. I use a sharp pick to get a drop of it inside each pin.





I also use .020 diameter solder that fits easily inside each pin.


----------



## SHIMACM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

These tubes were very valuable! Wow!!


----------



## attmci (Jan 31, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-nos-1959-Chatham-Tung-sol-Jan-6AS7-5998-par-correspondente-amplificador-de-tubo-/313390351448?hash=item48f7854458:g:3L4AAOSwZsFgCiIN&nma=true&si=Db%2BeWuKY7JX%2FNmcu4MoN3vwAwys%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> These tubes were very valuable! Wow!!


----------



## Ripper2860

SHIMACM said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-nos-1959-Chatham-Tung-sol-Jan-6AS7-5998-par-correspondente-amplificador-de-tubo-/313390351448?hash=item48f7854458:g:3L4AAOSwZsFgCiIN&nma=true&si=Db%2BeWuKY7JX%2FNmcu4MoN3vwAwys%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> These tubes were very valuable! Wow!!



Looks like those Reddit folks have moved on from Game Stop stock to Chatham tubes now.  And to think that I only paid like $60 for the last one I purchased. It may be time to sell!!


----------



## therremans

I recently (and a few others) won ours with bids for $45-$55. So I’m not really sure why some varieties are selling for so much. Maybe it’s the work of some tube influencer out there saying how the yellow text are far superior, etc.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Looks like those Reddit folks have moved on from Game Stop stock to Chatham tubes now.  And to think that I only paid like $60 for the last one I purchased. It may be time to sell!!



LOL!  This is the last one I bought:


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 31, 2021)

Correction: I paid $39 for mine.  $60 was a for a Chatham graphite plate 6080WB. 

Helluva a deal at $30.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

I almost paid way too much for 6as7g tubes with 5998 in the title when I started collecting.  I think people genuinely think they are 5998.  Either that or those Chathams are the new GEC.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I almost paid way too much for 6as7g tubes with 5998 in the title when I started collecting.  I think people genuinely think they are 5998.  Either that or those Chathams are the new GEC.



I like the Chatham 6AS7G quite a lot.  But it's no 5998.


----------



## maxpudding (Jan 31, 2021)

Whenever that guy posts a new listing, expect a good ol’ bidding war to insane prices.


----------



## attmci

maxpudding said:


> Whenever that guy posts a new listing, expect a good ol’ bidding war to insane prices.


Those are clear-top, and bottom getter. hahahaha.


----------



## Dogmatrix

The clear top bottom getter silver tip plates is my preferred version but I rate the Russian navy 1956 I picked up last month for $20 above that .
Auctions are unpredictable


----------



## maxpudding

6H13C + 1578 is a good combo in my system.


----------



## Paladin79

Dogmatrix said:


> The clear top bottom getter silver tip plates is my preferred version but I rate the Russian navy 1956 I picked up last month for $20 above that .
> Auctions are unpredictable


Nice find on the 56 Navy, I own a 55 myself. I couple that with a 1956 Melz solid plate 1578 quite often (a very rare tube). Today I am giving a final listen to a loaner amp  I designed and built before it goes to @sam6550a and others for a listen.

In the amp now is a 59 6H13C and a 58 Melz solid plate. (same as the 56). 





 .


----------



## JKDJedi

So here's an interesting tube that was just brought to my attention this morning.. a GE 5998A!? Looked up the specs and it's really close to the Tung Sols 5998.. anybody roll this 5998A tube?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998A-Dual...Electric-J-A-N-6AS7-421A-5998-A-/121586619378


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> So here's an interesting tube that was just brought to my attention this morning.. a GE 5998A!? Looked up the specs and it's really close to the Tung Sols 5998.. anybody roll this 5998A tube?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5998A-Dual...Electric-J-A-N-6AS7-421A-5998-A-/121586619378


I have only seen them. I would think most any tube designated 5998 would have similar specs but what do I know? Get one and let me know how it sounds lol.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I have only seen them. I would think most any tube designated 5998 would have similar specs but what do I know? Get one and let me know how it sounds lol.


I got asked about it (the 5998A) and thought I'd throw it out there to get some more info on it.. never seen that one before.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I got asked about it (the 5998A) and thought I'd throw it out there to get some more info on it.. never seen that one before.



I'm with @Paladin79 on this -- _*you*_ guinea pig it.  Take one for the team man.  And if it sounds great, sandblast all that GE lettering off it.  

I'm guinea-pigging some different numbered Melz tubes...if they ever get here.  If they don't, then my statement of not buying any more tubes will at least be pseudo-true.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> I'm with @Paladin79 on this -- _*you*_ guinea pig it.  Take one for the team man.  And if it sounds great, sandblast all that GE lettering off it.
> 
> I'm guinea-pigging some different numbered Melz tubes...if they ever get here.  If they don't, then my statement of not buying any more tubes will at least be pseudo-true.


I just bought a drone that didn't get prior approval from the boss...so.. I'm past walking on thin ice...


----------



## whirlwind

Paladin79 said:


> Nice find on the 56 Navy, I own a 55 myself. I couple that with a 1956 Melz solid plate 1578 quite often (a very rare tube). Today I am giving a final listen to a loaner amp  I designed and built before it goes to @sam6550a and others for a listen.
> 
> In the amp now is a 59 6H13C and a 58 Melz solid plate. (same as the 56).
> 
> ...



That wood looks great.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 3, 2021)

whirlwind said:


> That wood looks great.


Thanks, while this is a loaner amp, I tried to make it pretty just in case someone falls in love with the sound, that is lacewood with rainbow poplar splines. For me an amp needs to be pleasant to the eye and ear.  Here is the wood on my personal amp. It is not for sale.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I'm with @Paladin79 on this -- _*you*_ guinea pig it.  Take one for the team man.  And if it sounds great, sandblast all that GE lettering off it.
> 
> I'm guinea-pigging some different numbered Melz tubes...if they ever get here.  If they don't, then my statement of not buying any more tubes will at least be pseudo-true.


I will be guinea pigging a Melz tube that @bcowen pointed out to me, this was during his "not buying any more tubes" phases.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> I will be guinea pigging a Melz tube that @bcowen pointed out to me, this was during his "not buying any more tubes" phases.


Some random dude pm'd me asking bout the GE 5998A and says the seller is claiming it's the same as the Tung Sol 5998. I'm thinking if it is..why isn't it as popular as the Tung Sol then?   Yeah they're spec'd real close..but.. not the same thing. ..for one..the GE is butt ugly.


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Some random dude pm'd me asking bout the GE 5998A and says the seller is claiming it's the same as the Tung Sol 5998. I'm thinking if it is..why isn't it as popular as the Tung Sol then?   Yeah they're spec'd real close..but.. not the same thing. ..for one..the GE is butt ugly.



And it doesn't have domino plates.  So the same as the Tung Sol?  Kinda like....NOT.  Who knows, it might be a very nice sounding tube.  (can I believe I even just said that? )  But a Tung Sol it isn't.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> I will be guinea pigging a Melz tube that @bcowen pointed out to me, this was during his "not buying any more tubes" phases.



That's why I asked you to buy it.  LOL!!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> I just bought a drone that didn't get prior approval from the boss...so.. I'm past walking on thin ice...


As I slyly walk through the house with a new set of Utopia headphones...yes...yes...just some new headphones...no big deal...

That new Mullard 421a?  It's just a lightbulb.  Ignore it...


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> As I slyly walk through the house with a new set of Utopia headphones...yes...yes...just some new headphones...no big deal...
> 
> That new Mullard 421a?  It's just a lightbulb.  Ignore it...


Those are my favorite headphones with an Incubus, you are about to be one very happy camper. The bass accuracy, the high frequencies that seem to just drift higher and higher.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> Those are my favorite headphones with an Incubus, you are about to be one very happy camper. The bass accuracy, the high frequencies that seem to just drift higher and higher.


They show up on Monday of next week...pretty excited.  The Mullard 421a is already in though.  Guess what?  It sounds just like my old 5998.  Who would have thought?

I do love the dual 6j5g tubes in place of the 6sn7 (for now).  I'm using matching Brimar tubes and they've got a great sound.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> They show up on Monday of next week...pretty excited.  The Mullard 421a is already in though.  Guess what?  It sounds just like my old 5998.  Who would have thought?
> 
> I do love the dual 6j5g tubes in place of the 6sn7 (for now).  I'm using matching Brimar tubes and they've got a great sound.


That sounds like a very nice combo indeed. I believe we have Brimars committed to some 6sn7 equivalent testing we will finish one day. I have various Sylvanias including Naughty Girls and some old ST type, I most likely have National Union, RCA etc.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> That sounds like a very nice combo indeed. I believe we have Brimars committed to some 6sn7 equivalent testing we will finish one day. I have various Sylvanias including Naughty Girls and some old ST type, I most likely have National Union, RCA etc.


What happens if you mix Sylvania Naughty Girls and Sylvania Bad Boys?


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 3, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> What happens if you mix Sylvania Naughty Girls and Sylvania Bad Boys?


You end up with tiny tubes that resemble @bcowen I believe. 

Not the best photo but Naughty Girls have the bottom getter and three hole shiny black plates.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 3, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> Those are my favorite headphones with an Incubus, you are about to be one very happy camper. The bass accuracy, the high frequencies that seem to just drift higher and higher.



I officially hate both of you now.   

More seriously, the Utopias show an 80 ohm impedance.  That's high enough to work well with the Incubus?


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 3, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I officially hate both of you now.
> 
> More seriously, the Utopias show an 80 ohm impedance.  That's high enough to work well with the Incubus?


Very much so. I own maybe eight types of headphones and those are my favorite regardless of impedance.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> What happens if you mix Sylvania Naughty Girls and Sylvania Bad Boys?



You end up with illegitimate little @Paladin79 's about 9 months from now.


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 3, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You end up with illegitimate little @Paladin79 's about 9 months from now.


You are just jealous that I came up with that name.  Calling a tube Frankie sounds like a cocktail weenie.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Very much so. I own maybe eight types of headphones and those are my favorite regardless of impedance.


just looked them up ... my Lord.... $$$$.. 💸


----------



## Paladin79

JKDJedi said:


> just looked them up ... my Lord.... $$$$.. 💸


And then there is the appropriate cable. A fellow engineer heard mine and said they were worth more than his BMW lol. With my Incubus of course. 1578 solid plate 1578 and a Chatham 6as7g.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> And then there is the appropriate cable. A fellow engineer heard mine and said they were worth more than his BMW lol. With my Incubus of course. 1578 solid plate 1578 and a Chatham 6as7g.




This is the guy's BMW, just for reference:


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> This is the guy's BMW, just for reference:


      HAH!!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> just looked them up ... my Lord.... $$$$.. 💸


To be fair I paid about 50% of msrp getting them used.  I plan to get the Verite also and keep either the verite or utopia based on preference.  I will also keep the HD 800 bc that headphone is my baby.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> To be fair I paid about 50% of msrp getting them used.  I plan to get the Verite also and keep either the verite or utopia based on preference.  I will also keep the HD 800 bc that headphone is my baby.


The 800’s are great as well. I will watch for your impression of the verite


----------



## hp4fun

Newbie here, and planning to get a GEC 6AS7G. They are pricey so I want to know a bit more about the readings.

In this ended ebay listing (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Pair-MWT-Marconi-6AS7G-A1834-Valves-Tubes-Used-Tested-/184639056281) it says

100% Book Spec = Ia 100 - Gm 7 
Valve 1) Ia 74/90 - Gm 5.4/5.9 
Valve 2) Ia 51/88 - Gm 4.5/5.6

So it is usable and not great. But what is the minimum value?

I understand there are two triodes, and I also understand the transconductance is 7000, so the Gm=7 makes sense. But I don't understand the meaning of Ia. For example in this "nos" listing
https://www.nosaudiotubes.com/produ...in-england-head-phone-amplifier-tube-3104001/

The readings are: T1 Ia=49.2ma Gm=4230 T2 Ia=51.8ma Gm=4160 

It seems this reading is worse than the above ebay listing. How come it is nos?

Also in many other 6AS7G, the readings are usually just the Ia (e.g., 74/73, min 36/36), and not mentioning the Gm. Why?

Thanks in advance for my entry level questions.


----------



## therremans

hp4fun said:


> Newbie here, and planning to get a GEC 6AS7G. They are pricey so I want to know a bit more about the readings.
> 
> In this ended ebay listing (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Pair-MWT-Marconi-6AS7G-A1834-Valves-Tubes-Used-Tested-/184639056281) it says
> 
> ...


I think that the minimum value depends mostly on the tester model used and possibly even how it’s been calibrated or biased. I would ask the seller and they should be able to provide this. Most testers I see want 50% or 60% of new for minimum good. I sometimes do the math but it may not really be all that reliable. ex: the first pair above would be (77%, 84%) and (64%, 80%).

There are two different kinds of testers commonly used. Emission and mutual conductance, read this.


----------



## hp4fun

therremans said:


> I think that the minimum value depends mostly on the tester model used and possibly even how it’s been calibrated or biased. I would ask the seller and they should be able to provide this. Most testers I see want 50% or 60% of new for minimum good. I sometimes do the math but it may not really be all that reliable. ex: the first pair above would be (77%, 84%) and (64%, 80%).
> 
> There are two different kinds of testers commonly used. Emission and mutual conductance, read this.



Thanks for explaining the Gm values. Now I understand more. 

Any quick insights about the la values?


----------



## JKDJedi

hp4fun said:


> Thanks for explaining the Gm values. Now I understand more.
> 
> Any quick insights about the la values?


could be values of each triode.. that 2nd tube is a little off..


----------



## therremans

hp4fun said:


> Thanks for explaining the Gm values. Now I understand more.
> 
> Any quick insights about the la values?


Pretty sure _la_ would be the emissions test value with 100 being considered new, With regard to this emissions reading:
“The (meter) reading gives a good-bad reading by virtually tying all the elements of a vacuum tube together.”


----------



## hp4fun

therremans said:


> Pretty sure _la_ would be the emissions test value with 100 being considered new, With regard to this emissions reading:
> “The (meter) reading gives a good-bad reading by virtually tying all the elements of a vacuum tube together.”



It is also possible it is the ratio to the current values on the manual of that specific tester. 

I also read that there are testers such as TV7 that report Gm numbers at 0-120 scale. Therefore some of the 6AS7G says 36 is the minimum, which can be translated to other numbers. 

Thanks everyone for the help and now I understand much better!


----------



## JKDJedi

hp4fun said:


> It is also possible it is the ratio to the current values on the manual of that specific tester.
> 
> I also read that there are testers such as TV7 that report Gm numbers at 0-120 scale. Therefore some of the 6AS7G says 36 is the minimum, which can be translated to other numbers.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the help and now I understand much better!


some test actual transconductance, others the percentage of transconductance. for example, if said 6as7 is 7000 NOS transconductance, the tester that reads in percentage would/should read it about 100% There's write ups that NOS tubes are not always shipped at their highest ratings from the factory as it all has to do with the distant of the inards from each other...but that's another topic altogether.


----------



## hp4fun

JKDJedi said:


> some test actual transconductance, others the percentage of transconductance. for example, if said 6as7 is 7000 NOS transconductance, the tester that reads in percentage would/should read it about 100% There's write ups that NOS tubes are not always shipped at their highest ratings from the factory as it all has to do with the distant of the inards from each other...but that's another topic altogether.



It makes sense --- NOS does not always mean highest quality because there is a reason why it was not used. Sure there can be surplus or was kept secretly. But the readings won't lie 

Piggy back to my first question, it seems both listings are not good. The NOS looks nice but has a higher price and someone will pay the premium for the new look 

That said, I would say it is still nice if you can get a working pair of GEC 6AS7G for $200-300.


----------



## JKDJedi

hp4fun said:


> It makes sense --- NOS does not always mean highest quality because there is a reason why it was not used. Sure there can be surplus or was kept secretly. But the readings won't lie
> 
> Piggy back to my first question, it seems both listings are not good. The NOS looks nice but has a higher price and someone will pay the premium for the new look
> 
> That said, I would say it is still nice if you can get a working pair of GEC 6AS7G for $200-300.


for a pair.  you could get lucky


----------



## bcowen (Feb 6, 2021)

hp4fun said:


> It makes sense --- NOS does not always mean highest quality because there is a reason why it was not used. Sure there can be surplus or was kept secretly. But the readings won't lie
> 
> Piggy back to my first question, it seems both listings are not good. The NOS looks nice but has a higher price and someone will pay the premium for the new look
> 
> That said, I would say it is still nice if you can get a working pair of GEC 6AS7G for $200-300.



There's no way to compare those two listings by the tester readings. The first was done with an AVO 163. An extremely good tester, but also extremely vintage and extremely complex internally. If it hasn't been refurbished with new caps (at minimum) and calibrated within the last couple years, any data provided is suspect at best.  The second listing used an Amplitrex tester, which is a great _modern_ tester, and while it could still be out of calibration that's a very minimal risk as opposed to the AVO.  Either way, the two machines test the tube in an entirely different manner, so even if both were functionally perfect and in perfect calibration, the readings between them would have little correlation testing the same tube.  "Ia" is typically the designation for anode (plate) current on a tube, which will decrease as the tube wears. So the closer that reading is to the NOS spec the better. The first listing at least provides what the NOS values should be, and from what they show "Valve 1" is kind of OK, and "Valve 2" is on its last leg.  In the 2nd listing there is no NOS (or minimum) value data supplied, so the numbers provided are pretty much meaningless. You cannot transcribe test data numbers between manufacturers easily (if at all).  A test number showing 36 as minimum on a Hickok TV-7 will have no correlation with a minimum good number for, say, a B&K or Weston or AVO or whatever.  I'll just sum up with this: unless a seller discloses what the test numbers are for a tube, what the test data point(s) for that tube are -- average NOS ("bogey") value or "minimum good" (either are valid for analysis), what tester is being used, and when that tester was last refurbished and/or calibrated, then the data provided is nothing more than random text on a page as far as I'm concerned.  There was one seller I pointed out the other day stating that the baseline number he reported was the NOS (or Bogey) value for the tube, when it was actually the minimum good value!  That's why I want to know what tester they are using so I can check myself.  I don't know if he was intentionally lying or just that clueless, but either way the tubes he was claiming to test at NOS levels were pretty much totally worn out.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> There's no way to compare those two listings by the tester readings. The first was done with a vintage AVO 163. An extremely good tester, but also extremely vintage and extremely complex internally. If it hasn't been refurbished with new caps (at minimum) and calibrated within the last couple years, any data provided is suspect at best.  The second listing used an Amplitrex tester, which is a great _modern_ tester, and while it could still be out of calibration that's a very minimal risk as opposed to the AVO.  Either way, the two machines test the tube in an entirely different manner, so even if both were functionally perfect and in perfect calibration, the readings between them would have little correlation testing the same tube.  "Ia" is typically the designation for anode current on a tube, which will decrease as the tube wears. So the closer that reading is to the NOS spec the better. The first listing at least provides what the NOS values should be, and from what they show "Valve 1" is kind of OK, and "Valve 2" is on its last leg.  In the 2nd listing there is no NOS (or minimum) value data supplied, so the numbers provided are pretty much meaningless. You cannot transcribe test data numbers between manufacturers easily (if at all).  A test number showing 36 as minimum on a Hickok TV-7 will have no correlation with a minimum good number for, say, a B&K or Weston or AVO or whatever.  I'll just sum up with this: unless a seller discloses what the test numbers are for a tube, what the test data point(s) for that tube are (could be average NOS or "bogey" value or "minimum good" -- both are valid), what tester is being used, and when that tester was last refurbished and/or calibrated, then the data provided is nothing more than random text on a page as far as I'm concerned.  There was one seller I pointed out the other day stating that the baseline number he reported was the NOS (or Bogey) value for the tube, when it was actually the minimum good value!  That's why I want to know what tester they are using so I can check myself.  I don't know if he was intentionally lying or just that clueless, but either way the tubes he was claiming to test at NOS levels were pretty much totally worn out.



As you suggest, in most cases the measurements provided by vendors are relatively meaningless. And while I would like to buy a tester, I have too many odd-ball tubes, and the cost of a suitable tester is prohibitively expensive. In the end, and in my mind, my amp is the best tester. If a tube works and sounds as expected, it is good. And otherwise, it's bad. I have several thousand tubes and testing them with my amp has worked very well. But of course, YMMV.


----------



## Paladin79

gibosi said:


> As you suggest, in most cases the measurements provided by vendors are relatively meaningless. And while I would like to buy a tester, I have too many odd-ball tubes, and the cost of a suitable tester is prohibitively expensive. In the end, and in my mind, my amp is the best tester. If a tube works and sounds as expected, it is good. And otherwise, it's bad. I have several thousand tubes and testing them with my amp has worked very well. But of course, YMMV.


 Now let's think through this a minute lol. @bcowen has one of my amps and if he smokes it I will be the one fixing it. I want him testing the hell out of tubes then plugging them into a DarkVoice for a while, then I might give him permission to use them in an Incubus with his finger on the on/off switch at all times. He will get used to it.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> Now let's think through this a minute lol. @bcowen has one of my amps and if he smokes it I will be the one fixing it. I want him testing the hell out of tubes then plugging them into a DarkVoice for a while, then I might give him permission to use them in an Incubus with his finger on the on/off switch at all times. He will get used to it.



Perhaps you could include a tube tester with every amp you sell.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Now let's think through this a minute lol. @bcowen has one of my amps and if he smokes it I will be the one fixing it. I want him testing the hell out of tubes then plugging them into a DarkVoice for a while, then I might give him permission to use them in an Incubus with his finger on the on/off switch at all times. He will get used to it.


LOL!!!


----------



## Paladin79 (Feb 4, 2021)

gibosi said:


> Perhaps you could include a tube tester with every amp you sell.


Now there's a bad idea! lol  I have thoughts of including a matching headphone stand with some amps, not Bill's of course, cardboard might not support the weight.


----------



## JKDJedi

Paladin79 said:


> Now let's think through this a minute lol. @bcowen has one of my amps and if he smokes it I will be the one fixing it. I want him testing the hell out of tubes then plugging them into a DarkVoice for a while, then I might give him permission to use them in an Incubus with his finger on the on/off switch at all times. He will get used to it.


I only got one just because, and then realized it's benefits from a collectors stand point. All you really need is one of them emissions and shorts tester to get by. If I didn't have mine I'd be running so and so tubes on my amps without knowing. I don't know the long term effects of running tubes that have grid emission leaks going on, but it can't be good.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Now there's a bad idea! lol  I have thoughts of including a matching headphone stand with some amps, not Bill's of course, cardboard might not support the weight.



So I'm getting downgraded to single-wall cardboard now?


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> So I'm getting downgraded to single-wall cardboard now?


NCR paper... 😁


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> NCR paper... 😁



You are NOT helping.  Last thing @Paladin79 needs is even worse ideas.


----------



## Tom-s (Feb 5, 2021)

hp4fun said:


> Newbie here, and planning to get a GEC 6AS7G. They are pricey so I want to know a bit more about the readings.
> 
> In this ended ebay listing (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Pair-MWT-Marconi-6AS7G-A1834-Valves-Tubes-Used-Tested-/184639056281) it says
> 
> ...



Don't be fooled by what the seller states as the NOS values.
Be very much aware when buying 7236, 5998 or GEC 6AS7G's. These tubes are not build by the same standard as normal 6080's and 6AS7G's.
Search it's specific test data on The Valve Museum website: http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aam0032.htm
A you'll find Gm = 7.5 and Ia = 125mA at A=135V G=-31.5V.

You'll see the pair sold is very much worn. Hence the "low" price.

When buying a tube. Find the tube data at r-type or Franks datasheet. Search a datasheet via Duncanamps.
Second. Find out what tester is used and searched for the nominal minimum and NOS values. Some sellers only state minimum good but "forget" to put in the NOS values.
For a good overview of tube testers's and their real value when testing a tube; search on Jacmusic's website for the tube tester collection.

If you actually test a new GEC 6AS7G at the given point by The Valve Museum you'll see it comes really close. Here's a good sample from my collection.


----------



## bcowen

Tom-s said:


> Don't be fooled by what the seller states as the NOS values.
> Be very much aware when buying 7236, 5998 or GEC 6AS7G's. These tubes are not build by the same standard as normal 6080's and 6AS7G's.
> Search it's specific test data on The Valve Museum website: http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aam0032.htm
> A you'll find Gm = 7.5 and Ia = 125mA at A=135V G=-31.5V.
> ...



GREAT info!

There's also BAMA (Boat Anchor Manual Archive) where you can look up most every tester ever made and drill into the model and data sheets for that tester. This will at least let you know whether the tester uses "bogey" (NOS) values or "minimum good" values for reference, and what those values are for any particular tube....in that particular tester. 

The linked page below lists the manufacturer name -- click on it and there will be directories for the different models.

http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/


----------



## telecaster

Telefunken 6080 :
It's a tube I don't see much about. It sounds absolutely freaking good though!
I enjoy that with EF86 input drivers. The 339 is a double mono OTL, the power stage is directly coupled to the input stage like the BH Crack.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

telecaster said:


> Telefunken 6080 :
> It's a tube I don't see much about. It sounds absolutely freaking good though!
> I enjoy that with EF86 input drivers. The 339 is a double mono OTL, the power stage is directly coupled to the input stage like the BH Crack.


That's a really pretty tube.  How would describe the sound from the 6080?


----------



## telecaster (Feb 7, 2021)

In comparaison to my GEC 6as7g with the same drivers :
The Telefunken 6080 are more transparent, they give a sense of space and separation in a dense mix that seem lacking in the GEC. The highs of the TFK 6080 are a little bit smoother at very high listening levels compared to the GEC. I like to listen at very high volume.
At first my impression were that the mids especially vocals, were grainier on the GEC.
Overall the bass on the GEC is blooming, mids was lush and high so airy and was my favorite tube of all my 6as7g/6080.
Now I find the bass on the Telefunken even more beautiful, the mids are clearer and have the same romantic lush organic sound and the trebles are on the same level of definition than the GEC. But they are less harsh and fatiguing. I must say i am a detail lover, that's why I love a beefy OTL directly coupled amp through my HD800S. In my humble opinion, in my setup the Telefunken 6080 is king of the 6as7g.
The final word is that the Telefunken have an holographic imaging, an impeccable presentation of a dense modern mix, and are so detailed nad transparent, together with an organic and lush overall timbre. Soundstage is immense and stable, with a sense of positioning and imaging, that's impressive. I must note tht they pair so well with either Telefunken EF86. I wish I can use a real triode instead on the same level as the TFK ptriode strapped pentode.
I like  my Bendix slotted column too, and use them from time to time, but i USED to always come back to my GEC 6AS7G. I love their transparency and musicality. I find the Bendix a little bit solid and rigid sounding compared to GEC.
Now with the Telefunken right after a GEC session, sounds more transparent and more musical!


----------



## JTbbb

Anybody bought a tube from ebayer “Tubesandtubes”

Seems to be based in Singapore AND United States.

Have got this feeling!


----------



## attmci (Feb 8, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> NCR paper... 😁


https://www.ebay.com/itm/294000312606?ul_noapp=true

Nice job on the pins. 

Tom need to provide a detailed instructions.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/294000312606?ul_noapp=true
> 
> LOL


I know.. 😂😂 any of you guys want it make me an offer.


----------



## maxpudding

JKDJedi said:


> I know.. 😂😂 any of you guys want it make me an offer.



😂😂 that’s a fine solderin’

I’m sorry 😅


----------



## JKDJedi

maxpudding said:


> 😂😂 that’s a fine solderin’
> 
> I’m sorry 😅


LMAO.. I agree, that's why I'm getting rid of it .. 😂😂😂 I should probably clean it up a bit but the damage is done.


----------



## JKDJedi

Someone here suggested I crop the tips not knowing how gullible I am... 😒 I'm gonna clean that up in a bit. 🤣


----------



## maxpudding

But at least it tested good...hopefully someone will buy it soon, good luck 🍀


----------



## JKDJedi

maxpudding said:


> But at least it tested good...hopefully someone will buy it soon, good luck 🍀


thanks, the deal was the tube was near 60% and I wanted to give it a boost per se, but the tips were nearly closed off. and the wiring on Bendix tubes are thicker than the norm. Nearly impossible to pull or add new solder on the tube. So I did the unthinkable... dremeling the tips was the last thing I'd thought I'd ever do but what da hell... 😂 Anyways.. it gave me some working room and did give me that huge boost I knew I'd get by resoddering. Don't think I'll be going that way again as it looks butt ugly. I'm gonna be investing some on my mountain bike YouTube channel so will be selling off some UNTOUCHED IN ITS ORIGINAL shape tubes in a week or two.. might be a bargain for some of you guys here.


----------



## JTbbb

Western electric 421a owners, I know you’re out there 😀.

I’m after a matched pair for my Euforia, and rather than say I’ve got oodles of £$€, I thought I might offer up my matched pair of Bendix Slotted Graphite Plate 6080wb’s as a part exchange to tempt. PM me if this interests you.


----------



## hp4fun

JKDJedi said:


> thanks, the deal was the tube was near 60% and I wanted to give it a boost per se, but the tips were nearly closed off. and the wiring on Bendix tubes are thicker than the norm. Nearly impossible to pull or add new solder on the tube. So I did the unthinkable... dremeling the tips was the last thing I'd thought I'd ever do but what da hell... 😂 Anyways.. it gave me some working room and did give me that huge boost I knew I'd get by resoddering. Don't think I'll be going that way again as it looks butt ugly. I'm gonna be investing some on my mountain bike YouTube channel so will be selling off some UNTOUCHED IN ITS ORIGINAL shape tubes in a week or two.. might be a bargain for some of you guys here.



You mentioned 80% in the listing. Do you mean by re-soldering you boosted the life to another 20%? That's a WOW!


----------



## therremans

You could reflow it if needed and use a fine file to clean off any excess.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 8, 2021)

hp4fun said:


> You mentioned 80% in the listing. Do you mean by re-soldering you boosted the life to another 20%? That's a WOW!


From memory, Original  test #'s could've been 67% hard to tell with these testers, but the resoldering did give it a boost, I have a few tubes resurrected from the dead with some resoldering.  got your PM.


----------



## hp4fun

JKDJedi said:


> From memory, Original  test #'s could've been 67% hard to tell with these testers, but the resoldering did give it a boost, I have a few tubes resurrected from the dead with some resoldering.  got your PM.



This reminds me something yesterday. I got some heavily used 6922 from some broken signal generators. Left channel is completely silent after plugging it, but I decided to give it a clean up and cleaned the pins a few times using brasso, and it just seems I bought some died tubes back to life!

Maybe just an illusion but it is  was quite an interesting experiment.


----------



## JKDJedi

hp4fun said:


> This reminds me something yesterday. I got some heavily used 6922 from some broken signal generators. Left channel is completely silent after plugging it, but I decided to give it a clean up and cleaned the pins a few times using brasso, and it just seems I bought some died tubes back to life!
> 
> Maybe just an illusion but it is  was quite an interesting experiment.


No it's not an illusion, trust your ears. Had a similar problem couple weeks ago. My rear socket was dirtier than a public urinal. after a good hosing down...it was a different animal.


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/294000312606?ul_noapp=true
> 
> Nice job on the pins.
> 
> Tom need to provide a detailed instructions.


*SOLD*


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> Someone here suggested I crop the tips not knowing how gullible I am... 😒 I'm gonna clean that up in a bit. 🤣



Perhaps the instructions were not clear enough.  Maybe this will help.  LOL!!  (it's pick on Jedi day)    

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...hUKEwiO5-_JhdvuAhVDlKwKHT-aCoUQ4dUDCAk&uact=5


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> Perhaps the instructions were not clear enough.  Maybe this will help.  LOL!!  (it's pick on Jedi day)
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?sourc...hUKEwiO5-_JhdvuAhVDlKwKHT-aCoUQ4dUDCAk&uact=5


I'm in a good mood today .. it's ok..   Not that you need the ok... use a Dremel he said...


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I'm in a good mood today .. it's ok..   Not that you need the ok... use a Dremel he said...



ROFL!!  On the *tip*, not halfway up the pin.  

In all fairness, unless you've tried resoldering the pins on one of those Bendix, you cannot know what a PITA it is.


----------



## JKDJedi (Feb 8, 2021)

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  On the *tip*, not halfway up the pin.


😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!  On the *tip*, not halfway up the pin.
> 
> In all fairness, unless you've tried resoldering the pins on one of those Bendix, you cannot know what a PITA it is.


Jokes aside the tube is in otherwise excellent shape, the new owner will be very happy with it.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> Jokes aside the tube is in otherwise excellent shape, the new owner will be very happy with it.


I just offered $1 for one of your 6sn7 tubes and was turned down automatically.  You are a lousy negotiator.

Edit:  the button on ebay said 'make an offer'

Edit edit:  I thought you were one of these guys who held onto tubes forever like GME on WSB


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I just offered $1 for one of your 6sn7 tubes and was turned down automatically.  You are a lousy negotiator.
> 
> Edit:  the button on ebay said 'make an offer'
> 
> Edit edit:  I thought you were one of these guys who held onto tubes forever like GME on WSB


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I just offered $1 for one of your 6sn7 tubes and was turned down automatically.  You are a lousy negotiator.
> 
> Edit:  the button on ebay said 'make an offer'
> 
> Edit edit:  I thought you were one of these guys who held onto tubes forever like GME on WSB



Oh, so it was _you_. No wonder my $0.50 offer was rejected. Quit bidding up the prices on these things, damnit.


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> *SOLD*


Congrats!!!!!!


----------



## JKDJedi

Such a romantic tube...


----------



## gibosi

Awesome!


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Awesome!



You guys are making me jealous.  This is all I have.


----------



## therremans (Feb 10, 2021)

bcowen said:


> You guys are making me jealous.  This is all I have.


Does it sound like crepe?


----------



## bcowen

therremans said:


> Is that a crepe?



Yes, and it sounds terrible.  You'd think instructions would come with these things at least.


----------



## maxpudding

“but I am a crepe....I am a weirdough...”


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> You guys are making me jealous.  This is all I have.



It seems to me that you should have updated that rig a long time ago. But as they say, he who hesitates is lost. You have my sincerest sympathy.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You guys are making me jealous.  This is all I have.
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE





maxpudding said:


> “but I am a crepe....I am a weirdough...”


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Love It!!


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Does it sound like crepe?


Is that why Little Nipper took off?...


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> “but I am a crepe....I am a weirdough...”



ROFL!


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> It seems to me that you should have updated that rig a long time ago. But as they say, he who hesitates is lost. You have my sincerest sympathy.



I'm trying it with a pancake today  Perhaps the crepe is too thin.


----------



## Dogmatrix

A little too much waffle in this thread lately


----------



## jonathan c

therremans said:


> Does it sound like crepe?


Given the arm location, does it sound like eperc?


----------



## m17xr2b

Anyone feeling lucky? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6AS7-GE...844996?hash=item5965226fc4:g:TIwAAOSwc2NgJAMT


----------



## maxpudding

m17xr2b said:


> Anyone feeling lucky?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6AS7-GE...844996?hash=item5965226fc4:g:TIwAAOSwc2NgJAMT



Whoah...that's a rare sight these days.


----------



## hp4fun

maxpudding said:


> Whoah...that's a rare sight these days.



6 days to go 

I actually think someone got lucky here

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-matched-6080-tubes-from-telefunken-6AS7/303876578940#vi__app-cvip-panel


----------



## therremans

Also here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224343426502
I’m too broke to have invested and had to pass on that tele auction too.


----------



## Ripper2860

And it's gone.  And it was not me.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Also here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224343426502
> I’m too broke to have invested and had to pass on that tele auction too.


that one was super tempting. 😑


----------



## Slade01

therremans said:


> Also here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224343426502
> I’m too broke to have invested and had to pass on that tele auction too.



From that auction - that seller (battleparkvaliant ) is really good.  Bought tubes from him late last year - wherever he got his tubes from, it was definitely well taken care of if the tubes I bought are indicative of the general condition of that collection.


----------



## telecaster

therremans said:


> Also here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224343426502
> I’m too broke to have invested and had to pass on that tele auction too.


I dont like this Chatham tube that much. On the 4 i have 2 are noisy... Sound is in the end very average too IMHO.


----------



## telecaster

hp4fun said:


> 6 days to go
> 
> I actually think someone got lucky here
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-matched-6080-tubes-from-telefunken-6AS7/303876578940#vi__app-cvip-panel


I encourage everyone to at least try the genuine Telefunken. You might end up liking what it does actually!😜


----------



## therremans

telecaster said:


> I dont like this Chatham tube that much. On the 4 i have 2 are noisy... Sound is in the end very average too IMHO.


The topic comes up often, but have you tried heating up each pin? so that the solder can reflow and revitalize it’s connection.


----------



## telecaster (Feb 16, 2021)

I didnt actually, does it help with noisy tubes?


therremans said:


> The topic comes up often, but have you tried heating up each pin? so that the solder can reflow and revitalize it’s connection.


Edit: i just retries my Chatham and they are microphonic. I highly doubt a soldering iron gonna change that.
Sound is Ok actually, better that any modern tubes. But way behind my tubes of choice.


----------



## JKDJedi

telecaster said:


> I encourage everyone to at least try the genuine Telefunken. You might end up liking what it does actually!😜


I've read reviews that genuine Telefunken were kinda dry, seems to be working out for you though, nice.


----------



## Slade01

JKDJedi said:


> I've read reviews that genuine Telefunken were kinda dry, seems to be working out for you though, nice.



I've also found similar.  I was about to pull the trigger on the telefunken 6080 a while ago but more so than not others' impressions I came across that they weren't anything special.  But that being said, those are the nature of tubes right - love and hate for the same item.

From what I researched (and these are not substantiated by any means)  just bits and pieces I come across -- That some telefunken 6080s were in fact just GEs or other cheaper brands that were rebranded.   Other's I've seen claim that they are just a Mullard rebranded tube, and that the actual real deal is pretty rare.  So I guess I could understand if some impressions are completely across the spectrum.  This is one tube where the deck seems more stacked against you and your chances of getting a real telefunken made 6080 is like getting a reasonable deal from bangybang.  LOL  But hey...YMMV.


----------



## JKDJedi

Slade01 said:


> I've also found similar.  I was about to pull the trigger on the telefunken 6080 a while ago but more so than not others' impressions I came across that they weren't anything special.  But that being said, those are the nature of tubes right - love and hate for the same item.
> 
> From what I researched (and these are not substantiated by any means)  just bits and pieces I come across -- That some telefunken 6080s were in fact just GEs or other cheaper brands that were rebranded.   Other's I've seen claim that they are just a Mullard rebranded tube, and that the actual real deal is pretty rare.  So I guess I could understand if some impressions are completely across the spectrum.  This is one tube where the deck seems more stacked against you and your chances of getting a real telefunken made 6080 is like getting a reasonable deal from bangybang.  LOL  But hey...YMMV.


Everything @Slade01 said and to my knowledge the real deal Telefuken are grey plated, something like these..--> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken...rentrq:abab275e1770ace085d686a5ffd40641|iid:1


----------



## gibosi

JKDJedi said:


> Everything @Slade01 said and to my knowledge the real deal Telefuken are grey plated, something like these..--> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-6080-6AS7-5998-used-tested-NOS-OO-getters/253791647315?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=b6ba8870ee07431688dfb2940a5ec5ea&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=none&sd=253791647315&itm=253791647315&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&brand=TELEFUNKEN&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:e13970c7-7073-11eb-8249-2633324b0182|parentrq:abab275e1770ace085d686a5ffd40641|iid:1



The real deal will have a Telefunken production code. For tubes manufactured from the late 1960's and beyond, it is a 7-digit code beginning with either B (Berlin) or U (Ulm). And this tube was manufactured in Ulm, so it is the real deal. 

And for those who want to know how to decipher this code, here you go (scroll to the lower half of the page):

https://www.audiotubes.com/teledate.htm


----------



## hp4fun

JKDJedi said:


> Everything @Slade01 said and to my knowledge the real deal Telefuken are grey plated, something like these..--> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-6080-6AS7-5998-used-tested-NOS-OO-getters/253791647315?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=b6ba8870ee07431688dfb2940a5ec5ea&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=none&sd=253791647315&itm=253791647315&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&brand=TELEFUNKEN&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:e13970c7-7073-11eb-8249-2633324b0182|parentrq:abab275e1770ace085d686a5ffd40641|iid:1



QQ: Is gray plate a must? 

This seller seems legitimate and the 6080 appears to have black plate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-6080-6A...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Disclaimer: I am not buying/selling TFK 6080 and not associated with any ebay listing I posted.


----------



## JKDJedi

hp4fun said:


> QQ: Is gray plate a must?
> 
> This seller seems legitimate and the 6080 appears to have black plate.
> 
> ...


I personally wouldn't buy a grey plated Telefunken.


----------



## Slade01

gibosi said:


> The real deal will have a Telefunken production code. For tubes manufactured from the late 1960's and beyond, it is a 7-digit code beginning with either B (Berlin) or U (Ulm). And this tube was manufactured in Ulm, so it is the real deal.
> 
> And for those who want to know how to decipher this code, here you go (scroll to the lower half of the page):
> 
> https://www.audiotubes.com/teledate.htm



Do you know if Telefunken 6080 also carries the same signature diamond logo on the bottom?


----------



## bcowen

JKDJedi said:


> I personally wouldn't buy a grey plated Telefunken.



You're contradicting yourself. Did you mean you wouldn't buy one with black plates?


----------



## gibosi

Slade01 said:


> Do you know if Telefunken 6080 also carries the same signature diamond logo on the bottom?



The 6080 has an octal base, and therefore, no diamond. The diamond is found only on all-glass tubes, between the pins, such as an ECC88.


----------



## JKDJedi

bcowen said:


> You're contradicting yourself. Did you mean you wouldn't buy one with black plates?


Nope... grey plated versions are reported so and so for decent output... Here and on other sites,  So if I did grab one... "if" it'd be a black plated Mullard rebranded tube... 🙂


----------



## Tom-s

Here's my experience with the Telefunken 6080. Since that post i've listened to others with the same result.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/crack-bottlehead-otl.476650/page-649#post-15218935

Here's a picture; black plates.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/crack-bottlehead-otl.476650/page-649#post-15223772


----------



## telecaster (Feb 16, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> Everything @Slade01 said and to my knowledge the real deal Telefuken are grey plated, something like these..--> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-6080-6AS7-5998-used-tested-NOS-OO-getters/253791647315?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=b6ba8870ee07431688dfb2940a5ec5ea&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=none&sd=253791647315&itm=253791647315&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&brand=TELEFUNKEN&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:e13970c7-7073-11eb-8249-2633324b0182|parentrq:abab275e1770ace085d686a5ffd40641|iid:1


The real Telefunken can be black plates or grey plates. They are both similar in construction and look like the tube above with triple mica and double O getters.
The grey plate version is a little shorter than the black plate.

It seems Telefunken genuinely imported GE tube an rebranded them. They have made in USA on them.
Now the fake telefunken are rebranded Thomson France tubes, with a brown base, double mica usually.
They all have the same serial that is very short.
The genuine ones have serial beginning with U and is very long, they all have made in Germany written on them, and they have the 3 number serial on each sides.

For me the run of the mill US 6AS7G is bloated, grainy and not transparent when compared to the telefunken 6080. And I found out with headphones, yes I prefer warmer tone and big bass, and for that a high quality EQ is way better than some bloated sounding tube.
I stand by what I said about the telefunken 6080 vs the GEC6AS7G : the GEC is edgier and less smooth on top end, and less transparent/detailed, but is a little warmer.

Of course it all goes down to your own setup, and I will never say that they are wrong, but after a long time not running EQ, I have understand now the beauty of it!

On my picture you can see the taller black plate vs the shorter grey plates :





As a note, I took care to stock me up before letting people know how much I like this genuine 6080 telefunken tube. And yes I have read the couple of review you can fin on the net, and they don't say the setup, are very short and not detailed as if leaving a doubt on the origin of the tube itself.

I know it is a rare tube to be found at a good price, but it's there for those willing to hunt it. I just want people to enjoy it for the incredible sonics it offers. I have many many tubes believe me and for me it's one of, if not the best 6080/6AS7G there is.


----------



## JKDJedi

telecaster said:


> The real Telefunken can be black plates or grey plates. They are both similar in construction and look like the tube above with triple mica and double O getters.
> The grey plate version is a little shorter than the black plate.
> 
> It seems Telefunken genuinely imported GE tube an rebranded them. They have made in USA on them.
> ...


Are those L63 drivers?


----------



## telecaster

JKDJedi said:


> Are those L63 drivers?


Yep GEC L63, I also got a prettier pair with some white military stickers on them too. Sound is better because the stickers on them is more rare ^^


----------



## telecaster

some GEC madness


----------



## gibosi

telecaster said:


> some GEC madness



May I ask where you go the round wooden display "bases"? Or are they homemade?


----------



## telecaster

gibosi said:


> May I ask where you go the round wooden display "bases"? Or are they homemade?


Oh I am really sorry, it's such a long time since I got them. Maybe 8 years ago, it was on a DIY Chinese forum (and I don't read a single ideogram of Chinese mind you ^^)then I saw a guy posting his photos with those wooden stands. I think he got a tube shop in Hong Kong and made them by a wood shop. I bought two dozen from him at the time. They were very cheap to purchase.


----------



## gibosi

I haven't listened to TF 6080 in years. I remember thinking that they were too thin and airy. But after reading @telecaster's enthusiastic and glowing comments, maybe I should try again, but this time with warmer and/or more euphonic rectifiers and drivers.


----------



## JKDJedi

telecaster said:


> Yep GEC L63, I also got a prettier pair with some white military stickers on them too. Sound is better because the stickers on them is mo





gibosi said:


> I haven't listened to TF 6080 in years. I remember thinking that they were too thin and airy. But after reading @telecaster's enthusiastic and glowing comments, maybe I should try again, but this time with warmer and/or more euphonic rectifiers and drivers.


It does have that cool logo...


----------



## gibosi

These do have what I call that "Telefunken treble bite", but a Holland-made GZ34 and a pair of Mullard EL42 (triode-strapped pentodes) help to tame that bite. I've not have them in all that long, but I like what I am hearing.


----------



## hp4fun

m17xr2b said:


> Anyone feeling lucky?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6AS7-GE...844996?hash=item5965226fc4:g:TIwAAOSwc2NgJAMT



Seems the list was ended early? "because there was an error in the listing."


----------



## PsilocybinCube

hp4fun said:


> Seems the list was ended early? "because there was an error in the listing."


I was just sure that my $200 bid was going to win those tubes...


----------



## bcowen

hp4fun said:


> Seems the list was ended early? "because there was an error in the listing."



More like someone messaged him with an offer he liked and he took it.


----------



## Ripper2860

And with that, Bill's 'no tubes purchased' streak has ended in a most unscrupulous way.  😒


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> And with that, Bill's 'no tubes purchased' streak has ended in a most unscrupulous way.  😒



LOL!  Wasn't me.  Too rich for my blood.


----------



## Ripper2860

You say that, but we don't know what was offered and accepted.  😏


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> You say that, but we don't know what was offered and accepted.  😏


$1196


----------



## telecaster




----------



## telecaster

Valvo 6080, anyone know the maker?
Still burn in phase but sound very good already


----------



## mayurs

telecaster said:


> Valvo 6080, anyone know the maker?
> Still burn in phase but sound very good already



Looks a bit similar to a Tung Sol 6080 in its construction.


----------



## gibosi (Feb 20, 2021)

telecaster said:


> Valvo 6080, anyone know the maker?
> Still burn in phase but sound very good already



Yes, these are Tung-Sol 6080. Note the code: 322 = Tung Sol, 6529 = 1965, week 29, 3 = factory

Interestingly, most Valvo 6080 were made by Mullard. This is the first I've seen made by Tung-Sol.


----------



## sennfan83261 (Feb 24, 2021)

bcowen said:


> First and most important thing about tubes:  there is no right or wrong. The final sound of any tube is dependent on the component it's used in, other tubes in play with it, your personal preferences, what 'phones you're using, etc etc.  Whatever _you_ like, well, you like and what others may think can be suggestions or general consensus only and never invalidate what appeals to you.
> 
> Below is the triple mica Foton.  The arrows point to the 2 bottom micas, and the third is obscured up top inside the getter flash. You won't find these for a couple dollars each these days...more like $50 if you can find them at all.


I recently purchased a few pairs of the triple mica Foton (mine are from '58 and '59) from a Ukrainian seller who popped up on fleabay recently offering a bunch of '50s triple mica and '60s double mica Foton 6N3P's for pretty cheap. First time that I've seen such a stash being offered up for sale. They're are really nice and neutral with a slight hint of warmth on my Liquid Platinum. They have a nice wide soundstage, plenty of air, nice body in the mids, natural timbre, and clean and articulate bass. Maybe I've been spoiled by the '50 D-getter Amperex 6DJ8's lately (more full-bodied but less air). Still, I don't have any complaints with these Fotons and they beat the pants off the triple mica Reflektors that I also have.


----------



## attmci

Nice tubes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-...e&pageci=671cb21b-fa28-41ae-8120-07bfe20c6e82


----------



## LoryWiv

Thanks @attmci, nice find and will be fun to track, see how stratospheric the price goes. These appear to be the more desirable graphite plate, correct?


----------



## gibosi

Yes indeed, slotted graphite plates.


----------



## hp4fun

attmci said:


> Nice tubes.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-NOS-1963-Bendix-Hy-G-800-JAN-6080WB-6080-5998-6AS7-Amp-Tube-Quad-NIB/233907775947?_mwBanner=1&ul_ref=https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11021.m43.l3160/7?euid=3c2ce6a628d64d64a3a6afcfca54e0de&bu=43143433688&ut=RU&segname=11021&crd=20210224075252&osub=-1~1&ch=osgood&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F233907775947&sojTags=bu=bu,ut=ut,ch=ch,segname=segname,crd=crd,url=loc,osub=osub&srcrot=e11021.m43.l3160&rvr_id=0&rvr_ts=d55f3a521770a45e43506d79fffe329d&ul_noapp=true&pageci=671cb21b-fa28-41ae-8120-07bfe20c6e82



I bought from this seller in the past. Reputable. I am quite curious about the magic of finding 4 bendix (and he/she has many other exotic tubes too!)


----------



## CADCAM

CADCAM said:


> Just a heads up here about an experience I had on eBay with a seller called _annalomteva _based in the Ukraine. I purchased two NOS 1966 6N5S tubes from them and one was super noisy to the point of not being usable and the other buzzes a bit in my amp. I contacted them and they said replacements would be sent and not to worry. That was over 5 weeks ago and I've received nothing and they've stopped responding to my messages.
> If they do replace the tubes or credit me I will certainly post an update but as for now I'd avoid them unfortunately.


I ordered these tubes in June of 2020 and the replacements arrived today! WOW seven months but she did honor her word so _*annalomteva*_ is OK in my book.
The really good thing is the first Svetlana 6N5S replacement I tried sounds very good and is quiet! It's dated 1965 and the other is a 1966 so hopefully I have a couple new tubes to put into rotation! Took a while but I got em'!


----------



## maxpudding

attmci said:


> Nice tubes.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-NOS-1963-Bendix-Hy-G-800-JAN-6080WB-6080-5998-6AS7-Amp-Tube-Quad-NIB/233907775947?_mwBanner=1&ul_ref=https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11021.m43.l3160/7?euid=3c2ce6a628d64d64a3a6afcfca54e0de&bu=43143433688&ut=RU&segname=11021&crd=20210224075252&osub=-1~1&ch=osgood&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F233907775947&sojTags=bu=bu,ut=ut,ch=ch,segname=segname,crd=crd,url=loc,osub=osub&srcrot=e11021.m43.l3160&rvr_id=0&rvr_ts=d55f3a521770a45e43506d79fffe329d&ul_noapp=true&pageci=671cb21b-fa28-41ae-8120-07bfe20c6e82


Added into my watchlist

I am thinking it’ll be a bloodbath


----------



## CADCAM (Feb 26, 2021)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-PCS-CSF-...649631?hash=item28aa3a751f:g:qfkAAOSwMM9a~7iq

_*From post on fleabay*
"PS1 . This tube need soft start of high voltage. if your amplifier does not have a rectifier tube for soft start, do not buy this item. NO RETURN of this item if your amplifier do not have a rectifier tube . Please pay ONLY IF you agree .

PS.2 Do not use this tube in Chinese made headphone amplifier. NO RETURN if you use it on Chinese made headphone amplifier .Please pay ONLY IF you agree"_

Any comments on this? Worth it? I believe it is for a pair also...


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Feb 26, 2021)

CADCAM said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-PCS-CSF-...649631?hash=item28aa3a751f:g:qfkAAOSwMM9a~7iq
> 
> _*From post on fleabay*
> "PS1 . This tube need soft start of high voltage. if your amplifier does not have a rectifier tube for soft start, do not buy this item. NO RETURN of this item if your amplifier do not have a rectifier tube . Please pay ONLY IF you agree .
> ...


I used that tube in my BHC and the Incubus from @Paladin79 .  There is no special consideration to worry about with this tube so far as I know or have experienced.

It's a clean, very neutral tube that is closer to SS in my opinion.  

The tube can be had for less, I have purchased three and all were around $20-25.

I like the tube for its neutrality.  I've also found them to be very consistent sounding and none I have purchased have been noisy or microphonic.


----------



## maxpudding

CADCAM said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-PCS-CSF-...649631?hash=item28aa3a751f:g:qfkAAOSwMM9a~7iq
> 
> _*From post on fleabay*
> "PS1 . This tube need soft start of high voltage. if your amplifier does not have a rectifier tube for soft start, do not buy this item. NO RETURN of this item if your amplifier do not have a rectifier tube . Please pay ONLY IF you agree .
> ...



Some people on the bottlehead forum are having problems (tube failures) with the Thomson 6080WA's from that particular seller. A particular batch was mentioned (#FSE-8052-FF).


----------



## CADCAM

Here's most of the tubes I've purchased so far...


----------



## cddc

CADCAM said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-PCS-CSF-...649631?hash=item28aa3a751f:g:qfkAAOSwMM9a~7iq
> 
> _*From post on fleabay*
> "PS1 . This tube need soft start of high voltage. if your amplifier does not have a rectifier tube for soft start, do not buy this item. NO RETURN of this item if your amplifier do not have a rectifier tube . Please pay ONLY IF you agree .
> ...




These comments on needing a soft start of B+ is really weird, and do not make sense. We've discussed that on the BHC forum. 

His soft start refers to having a tube rectifier instead of a SS one. With SS rectification high voltage B+ almost hit the 6080 tube right away as soon as you turn on the amp, so it is a "hard start". While tube rectifiers normally need some time to boil the electrons off the cathode, so it's a "soft start". But tube rectifiers can also have "hard start", lots of rectifier tubes are directly heated, meaning high voltage B+ will hit 6080 almost as fast as SS rectifiers.

There are benefits to have a "soft start" for sure, but that doesn't mean "hard start" from SS rectifiers will have problems. In fact most of the OTL amps on the market use SS rectification, and I've never heard 6080 tubes having problems with a "hard start from these amps except from this particular seller. 

The most likely scenario - this particular seller is selling Thomson 6080 duds as NOS tubes. Caveat Emptor!


----------



## mayurs

cddc said:


> These comments on needing a soft start of B+ is really weird, and do not make sense. We've discussed that on the BHC forum.
> 
> His soft start refers to having a tube rectifier instead of a SS one. With SS rectification high voltage B+ almost hit the 6080 tube right away as soon as you turn on the amp, so it is a "hard start". While tube rectifiers normally need some time to boil the electrons off the cathode, so it's a "soft start". But tube rectifiers can also have "hard start", lots of rectifier tubes are directly heated, meaning high voltage B+ will hit 6080 almost as fast as SS rectifiers.
> 
> ...


This is quite a relief as I was a bit concerned as I use and love the CSF 6080WA with my HD650 on the Euforia.


----------



## cddc

mayurs said:


> This is quite a relief as I was a bit concerned as I use and love the CSF 6080WA with my HD650 on the Euforia.




I guess these clauses are used as excuses to decline possible future refund/return requests to the seller once buyers find problems on his Thomson 6080 tubes...


----------



## gibosi

maxpudding said:


> Some people on the bottlehead forum are having problems (tube failures) with the Thomson 6080WA's from that particular seller. A particular batch was mentioned (#FSE-8052-FF).



"8052" looks to me like it might be a date code, perhaps 1980, week 52. And speaking for myself only, I would steer clear of any vacuum tube manufactured that late. By that time, vacuum tubes were throw-away disposables and typically, quality wasn't all that good.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

CADCAM said:


> Here's most of the tubes I've purchased so far...


That's a nice collection, and you're organized, so kudos for that.

Any 6as7g tubes in the collection?  Any 5998 tubes?  Those might be a nice compliment to the 6080 tubes you've collected.

If you don't have any of those, a good starting point would be the 6h5c (or 6h13c), a tried-and-true RCA 6as7g (I prefer the bottom D getter version), a 6520 if you can find one, a Chatham 6as7g, and then the elusive 5998 from Tung-Sol or Chatham.

Those are listed in order of price based on what I typically see on ebay...


----------



## hp4fun

CADCAM said:


> Here's most of the tubes I've purchased so far...



Finally I see the best way of storing the tubes.......


----------



## gibosi

hp4fun said:


> Finally I see the best way of storing the tubes.......



Yes, if you don't have all that many, that's very neat and practical. But some here have hundreds, or even thousands of tubes, and something a little more industrial is necessary. And here's one solution. This guy has over 4000 tubes. 

http://lampes-et-tubes.info/museum.php?l=e


----------



## CADCAM

PsilocybinCube said:


> That's a nice collection, and you're organized, so kudos for that.
> 
> Any 6as7g tubes in the collection?  Any 5998 tubes?  Those might be a nice compliment to the 6080 tubes you've collected.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I do have the original tube (6N5PJ) that came with the amp as well as three Svetlana 6H5C two from 1966 & one dated 1965, I also have an RCA 6AS7G but it has a slight buzz in my amp. The amp by the way is a Monoprice Monolith, wasn't expecting too much but turns out to be a fantastic versatile amp! Weighs over 20lbs! Thanks for the suggestions I'll keep my eyes open.


----------



## therremans (Feb 26, 2021)

This is the case I use for my power tubes.







Still room for a couple more.

I also own the Thomson (top left) and purchased from UK seller Langrex. I believe it was around $15. I remember it as being pretty neutral, lean, dry and remember it having a really nice high end. It can be detailed. So pairing it with the right driver tube was key. Definitely worth owning for a similar price.

Edit: I also use it on the Darkvoice


----------



## Smallpie

therremans said:


> This is the case I use for my power tubes.
> 
> 
> Still room for a couple more.
> ...


Great idea with the case!


----------



## hp4fun

therremans said:


> This is the case I use for my power tubes.
> 
> 
> Still room for a couple more.
> ...



Believe it or not, there are 4 x bendix 6080, 3 x TS 5998, 2 x 7236, 2 x TS 6080WA, 4 x CV4079, 4 x 5693, 2 x E80F, 2 x Mullard 6080 inside this crappy almost broken Amazon shipping box.

I spent my money for the storage box on a bendix 6080 last time, fwiw.


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> The most likely scenario - this particular seller is selling Thomson 6080 duds as NOS tubes. Caveat Emptor!


Agree.  Plus I find it hilarious that a Chinese seller is specifically stating not to use them in Chinese amps.


----------



## bcowen

hp4fun said:


> Finally I see the best way of storing the tubes.......


Are you inferring that my storage method is somehow lacking?


----------



## hp4fun

bcowen said:


> Agree.  Plus I find it hilarious that a Chinese seller is specifically stating not to use them in Chinese amps.



I prefer to think that this is due to different design principles so the Thompson 6080 does not sound good in any Chinese amps, instead of the Taiwan vs Mainland rivalry in the audio world.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

therremans said:


> I also own the Thomson (top left) and purchased from UK seller Langrex. I believe it was around $15. I remember it as being pretty neutral, lean, dry and remember it having a really nice high end. It can be detailed. So pairing it with the right driver tube was key. Definitely worth owning for a similar price.



I agree with you.  I like to use the Thomson instead of a 421a or 5998 in the Incubus amp when I really just want to hear what my 6sn7 tube is doing.  Then, if I like it, I'll put a 'better' (i.e. more expensive) power tube back in.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Agree.  Plus I find it hilarious that a Chinese seller is specifically stating not to use them in Chinese amps.



I think that dude is just making things up, if these 2 clauses are not enough to protect him from angry buyers, I guess he will likely add one more like "do not use it on sub $1000 amps"

I don't see why the Thomson 6080 can't be used on DV or LF amps, and how the Thomson 6080 tube differs from other 6080 tubes. It has all the 6080 specifications and should just work like other 6080 tubes in the same circuit with no difference.


----------



## hp4fun

cddc said:


> I think that dude is just making things up, if these 2 clauses are not enough to protect him from angry buyers, I guess he will likely add one more like "do not use it on sub $1000 amps"
> 
> I don't see why the Thomson 6080 can't be used on DV or LF amps, and how the Thomson 6080 tube differs from other 6080 tubes. It has all the 6080 specifications and should just work like other 6080 tubes in the same circuit with no difference.



I tend to avoid any "you have to do this 10+ things then you will be satisfied" gear. Buyers remorse is almost guaranteed.

Maybe only exceptionally good gears like the Hifiman HE6se (at the sale price).


----------



## kkrazik2008

CADCAM said:


> Here's most of the tubes I've purchased so far...


Okay, so what case are you using to store the tubes? It looks perfect with drawers and such. I currently roll them up in bubble wrap and unwrap when wanting to use. Not efficient and need to wait until they cool down to put away.


----------



## gibosi

kkrazik2008 said:


> Okay, so what case are you using to store the tubes? It looks perfect with drawers and such. I currently roll them up in bubble wrap and unwrap when wanting to use. Not efficient and need to wait until they cool down to put away.



I'm single now, but at one time I had to worry about WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) and found this small chest to work well. (I'm currently using it as a night stand, as well.) All tubes are in boxes and depending on what you have, each drawer could be dedicated to a different type of tube. For example, drivers, output tubes, rectifiers, or what have you.

As I now have way more tubes than will fit in this chest, and WAF is no longer a consideration, I store tubes all over the house. lol


----------



## CADCAM

I was a


kkrazik2008 said:


> Okay, so what case are you using to store the tubes? It looks perfect with drawers and such. I currently roll them up in bubble wrap and unwrap when wanting to use. Not efficient and need to wait until they cool down to put away.


At the store with my wife and there was this box in the makeup isle that looked like it would store my tubes perfectly. I bought it, brought it home, got some high density foam and made cutouts for the 6080's. Worked awesome! Paid like 15 bucks for it too! The top ended up perfect for my driver tubes.


----------



## kkrazik2008

gibosi said:


> I'm single now, but at one time I had to worry about WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) and found this small chest to work well. (I'm currently using it as a night stand, as well.) All tubes are in boxes and depending on what you have, each drawer could be dedicated to a different type of tube. For example, drivers, output tubes, rectifiers, or what have you.
> 
> As I now have way more tubes than will fit in this chest, and WAF is no longer a consideration, I store tubes all over the house. lol


Haha, that’s a good one. I don’t have that many tubes, only a handful.
need something a wee bit smaller


----------



## kkrazik2008

CADCAM said:


> I was a
> 
> At the store with my wife and there was this box in the makeup isle that looked like it would store my tubes perfectly. I bought it, brought it home, got some high density foam and made cutouts for the 6080's. Worked awesome! Paid like 15 bucks for it too! The top ended up perfect for my driver tubes.


Pure Genius! 
Great resourcefulnes.
Thanks!


----------



## hp4fun

gibosi said:


> I'm single now, but at one time I had to worry about WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) and found this small chest to work well. (I'm currently using it as a night stand, as well.) All tubes are in boxes and depending on what you have, each drawer could be dedicated to a different type of tube. For example, drivers, output tubes, rectifiers, or what have you.
> 
> As I now have way more tubes than will fit in this chest, and WAF is no longer a consideration, I store tubes all over the house. lol



Inspired by your post, let me present --- Chinese medicine cabinet....


----------



## Paladin79

kkrazik2008 said:


> Haha, that’s a good one. I don’t have that many tubes, only a handful.
> need something a wee bit smaller


I use a variety of storage devices including foamed lined aluminum cases, Pelican cases, a small dresser, and shelves for easy access but as far as small cases I use boxes available on Uline, they also sell foam rubber with small squares you can remove to match any shape. Such a box is here on the left.  I have done a lot of tube challenges so such boxes are handy to organize tube types as well as to ship tubes to friends. Rare and highly expensive tubes I tend to keep in a Pelican case. I use standard tube boxes when swapping tubes, Finnegan thinks tubes are a cat toy so I have to protect them at all times.


----------



## bcowen

CADCAM said:


> I was a
> 
> At the store with my wife and there was this box in the makeup isle that looked like it would store my tubes perfectly. I bought it, brought it home, got some high density foam and made cutouts for the 6080's. Worked awesome! Paid like 15 bucks for it too! The top ended up perfect for my driver tubes.


You know the drill....pics or it didn't happen.   

 Seriously, I'd love to see what you did.


----------



## CADCAM

bcowen said:


> You know the drill....pics or it didn't happen.
> 
> Seriously, I'd love to see what you did.


Look back a few I posted pics...


----------



## attmci

A pair of 421A:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303901893789?ul_noapp=true


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> A pair of 421A:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303901893789?ul_noapp=true


Thanks . 😁


----------



## SHIMACM

I bought a tube on ebay that has no identification on it. But I believe it is a GEC 6080.

What do you think?


----------



## JTbbb

A few pics for comparison.


----------



## SHIMACM

JTbbb said:


> A few pics for comparison.



So, the internal structure is identical.

There are no other 6080 tubes with the same similarity in the internal structure.

I then believe that it really is a GEC.


----------



## jonathan c

SHIMACM said:


> So, the internal structure is identical.
> 
> There are no other 6080 tubes with the same similarity in the internal structure.
> 
> I then believe that it really is a GEC.


I am right now using a GEC CV5008 in a Woo WA3 and it looks exactly like the 6080WA, pictured on the right, in terms of internal structure.


----------



## Deceneu808

SHIMACM said:


> I bought a tube on ebay that has no identification on it. But I believe it is a GEC 6080.
> 
> What do you think?


I wanted to pull the trigger on this one the other day but wasn't sure on what it was. The guy from Belgium had no info


----------



## cddc

Deceneu808 said:


> I wanted to pull the trigger on this one the other day but wasn't sure on what it was. The guy from Belgium had no info




I happened to see this listing too couple of days ago, but I didn't want to pull the trigger at all. 

The guy has several tube testers including a pretty expensive AVO 160, he normally provides test results on his tubes, but on this one he only stated "tested on his AVO 160 tester". It's the question why he's trying not to provide test data on this tube that instantly turned me off.


----------



## maxpudding

Exactly my thoughts too, it looks like a GEC but the seller didn’t publish the test measurements. I was about to ask them but I guess SHIMACM bought it before I got the chance to ask 😂


----------



## SHIMACM

So, I asked the seller.

He gave me the following measurements:

This tube has been tested on my AVO 160 with:

Uf: 6 V AC
Ua: 100 V AC
Ug1: - 30 V DC
Results: Ia = 67 & 77 mA
S = 4 & 4 mA / V

It is observed that the tube has about 13% of imbalance between the channels.

As I have another tube here with the same percentage of imbalance and it sounded very well in my ears, I decided to buy, considering the asking price.


----------



## m17xr2b

Balance is less important in most amps due to automatic bias so you'll rarely hear the difference. 

The test results on the other hand, 100mA is the new value for those parameters, under 60mA is considered for replacement even if it may still work, good long term usable tubes are around 80mA.  In a Crack is may work just fine, in an Apex Teton it won't.


----------



## SHIMACM

m17xr2b said:


> Balance is less important in most amps due to automatic bias so you'll rarely hear the difference.
> 
> The test results on the other hand, 100mA is the new value for those parameters, under 60mA is considered for replacement even if it may still work, good long term usable tubes are around 80mA.  In a Crack is may work just fine, in an Apex Teton it won't.








Isn't that the tester that was used?

Because if it is, the rejection point is below 40ma, not below 60ma.

Is that correct?


----------



## m17xr2b

Don't look at where the good/bad areas are situated on the dial, the tube datasheet will dictate what's the maximum and minimum current a particular tube should have.  I know for sure 100V and -30V bias will give 100mA for a new tube +-5% let's say.  Many 6AS7G that tested as new on ebay had this value on my own testers. You can test at different parameters where 40mA could indeed be the minimum but then then the new value drops to 80mA or something. 

Tubes are usually end of life at less than 60% at 40(40mA)% they're really dead. If they were even close to good I'd have no doubt they'd be advertised as tested strong.  When it's too good to be true with tubes it probably is. 

I usually check sellers for other tube auctions to see if they gave out testing results, if that's the case I avoid auctions without results from the same seller or the plain _tested _without values.


----------



## SHIMACM

m17xr2b said:


> Don't look at where the good/bad areas are situated on the dial, the tube datasheet will dictate what's the maximum and minimum current a particular tube should have.  I know for sure 100V and -30V bias will give 100mA for a new tube +-5% let's say.  Many 6AS7G that tested as new on ebay had this value on my own testers. You can test at different parameters where 40mA could indeed be the minimum but then then the new value drops to 80mA or something.
> 
> Tubes are usually end of life at less than 60% at 40(40mA)% they're really dead. If they were even close to good I'd have no doubt they'd be advertised as tested strong.  When it's too good to be true with tubes it probably is.
> 
> I usually check sellers for other tube auctions to see if they gave out testing results, if that's the case I avoid auctions without results from the same seller or the plain _tested _without values.



I bought two Chatham / Bendix 6080, graphite board in which the seller reported:

"One has replacement keyway, but this has no affect on performance of tube.

 Test at 64-62, 66-64, min is 36-36 on TV7"

In that case, would the tubes also be near the end of their useful life?


----------



## m17xr2b

With TV7 it's always important the sellers give the min value.  The 60% rule still applies, so on that tester 36 is the minimum value, meaning 60 is the new value (60% of 60 is 36). So in this case above 60 is better than new value which is about expected for nos.


----------



## SHIMACM

m17xr2b said:


> With TV7 it's always important the sellers give the min value.  The 60% rule still applies, so on that tester 36 is the minimum value, meaning 60 is the new value (60% of 60 is 36). So in this case above 60 is better than new value which is about expected for nos.



UFA! What good news.

The GEC 6080 only paid $ 37, so the loss is not huge.

But in these Chathams I got a lot more.

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## CADCAM

Do we have a list and\or post of reputable fleabay sellers that we can buy or bid from with some level of confidence? 
I'll be honest I've usually just randomly bought from sellers based on feedback rating and price.
If there is a post or list I have a seller I'd feel confident putting on it *tubes_old70* the guy is an engineer based in Romania and has, I quote, _"I have the only one Roetest in Romania, two L3-3 tube testers and many other equipments in my laboratory;"   _
He also resently told me, again I quote,  _Take care if you buy this kind of tubes, 6AS7, 6080, 6N13S, 6N5S, they have huge spread parameters, 2 triodes inside a tube one can have 70% plate current and another 120%, this means 50% differences, and many of them are gassy, gassy tubes haven't stability and can deliver all kind of noises._
Love the accent... I've purchased 4 matched pairs of 6N3P tubes for my Monolith and Loxjie amps and 1 matched pair of 6N6P TUBE MATCHED PAIR +/-2.5% TOL, NOS/NIB, SAME DATE II.1974, ROETEST V10 for my Little Dot MKIII, all with excellent results. 
I'm now thinking of getting a pair of the 6N13S to try one out in the Monolith.


----------



## Deceneu808

Just pulled the trigger on these babies to round up my collection and end the tube hunt


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> Just pulled the trigger on these babies to round up my collection and end the tube hunt



Two great tubes. The 6as7g blends wonderfully with the GEC L63 and the Chatham 6080 blends beautifully with a Melz 1578.


----------



## JKDJedi

SHIMACM said:


> Two great tubes. The 6as7g blends wonderfully with the GEC L63 and the Chatham 6080 blends beautifully with a Melz 1578.


Even if it was at 30, for headphones, your good as far as use abilities go. Not idea but still usable .. have a few that measure that low and I can't tell the difference from a 75% tube..


----------



## Deceneu808

SHIMACM said:


> Two great tubes. The 6as7g blends wonderfully with the GEC L63 and the Chatham 6080 blends beautifully with a Melz 1578.


Stop recommending. I'm +1300$ on tube in the last 6 months. I said I wanted to end the tube hunt but I'll look in to those lmao


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> Just pulled the trigger on these babies to round up my collection


Nice!!!!


Deceneu808 said:


> and end the tube hunt


LOL!


----------



## raindownthunda

Spending lots of quality time lately with the Bendix... currently listening with a pair of Brimar 6C5G on the Verite Closed. Took a family photo of the three varieties of 6080WB tubes I have. They all sound wonderful and I rotate through the different varieties regularly.


----------



## maxpudding

The quartet of bendix 6080’s are sold for $959

I guess it’s a fair price


----------



## gibosi

maxpudding said:


> The quartet of bendix 6080’s are sold for $959
> 
> I guess it’s a fair price



And Bendix isn't making any more of these. Prices will only go up. Buy them now while they're "cheap"! [groan] lol


----------



## JKDJedi

maxpudding said:


> The quartet of bendix 6080’s are sold for $959
> 
> I guess it’s a fair price


And I sold one for $!00 last year ..


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 2, 2021)

We had a deal!!   

Blame your wife -- not me!!  That tube sale could be the one that saved your cojones


----------



## maxpudding

gibosi said:


> And Bendix isn't making any more of these. Prices will only go up. Buy them now while they're "cheap"! [groan] lol



I’d take one if anyone had an extra to sell lol



JKDJedi said:


> And I sold one for $!00 last year ..


----------



## Smallpie

JKDJedi said:


> And I sold one for $!00 last year ..


New in box and a matching quad probably added a lot to the price I assume.


----------



## therremans

Isn’t this the same listing? URL


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> We had a deal!!
> 
> Blame your wife -- not me!!  That tube sale could be the one that saved your cojones


----------



## maxpudding

therremans said:


> Isn’t this the same listing? URL



I think the seller has more bendix tubes to sell


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Isn’t this the same listing? URL


sure does look like it..oh oh... #notasdescribed ??


----------



## Velozity (Mar 2, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> sure does look like it..oh oh... #notasdescribed ??



I smell shenanigans!  I'm always leery of sellers that relist a high-value item immediately after the auction closes and uses the EXACT same listing.  Makes me wonder if they bid up the first auction using alias accounts...


----------



## attmci

therremans said:


> Isn’t this the same listing? URL


Unsold.


----------



## maxpudding (Mar 2, 2021)

Velozity said:


> I smell shenanigans!  I'm always leery of sellers that relist a high-value item immediately after the auction closes and uses the EXACT same listing.  Makes me wonder if they bid up the first auction using alias accounts...



Hah! You might be right, probably that seller was hoping people would bid a bit higher for the extremely rare slotted bendix 6080's


----------



## therremans

Velozity said:


> I smell shenanigans!  I'm always leery of sellers that relist a high-value item immediately after the auction closes and uses the EXACT same listing.  I mean if you're trying to claim they are unique items for sale, at least change the pictures!  Makes me wonder if they bid up the first auction using alias accounts...


Most likely he has more stock. I agree, especially when dealing with high cost items, give full transparency.


----------



## maxpudding

One way to know for sure is to ask the seller directly and see if he'd give an answer ROFL


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Unsold.


Wow.. his buddy bidded to high so he cancelled it and relisted ...😂😂😂


----------



## Ripper2860

Nah.  My wife changed the password on my Paypal account and wouldn't tell me what the new password is, so I had to back-out on the purchase after winning.


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> Wow.. his buddy bidded to high so he cancelled it and relisted ...😂😂😂


Haha well I know you can’t cancel an auction with bids and with less than 12 hours left. I saw the auction with about 7 minutes left and didn’t look again.


----------



## JKDJedi

therremans said:


> Haha well I know you can’t cancel an auction with bids and with less than 12 hours left. I saw the auction with about 7 minutes left and didn’t look again.


And @bcowen did point out the few pins unsoldered with this set... Poor guy whoever wins these with no soldering skills..


----------



## maxpudding

Deceneu808 said:


> Just pulled the trigger on these babies to round up my collection and end the tube hunt



I bought from the same seller whose photo you posted here, it was for a different tube though. The seller has quite a nice collection of tubes. Congrats on the tube purchase


----------



## maxpudding

JKDJedi said:


> And @bcowen did point out the few pins unsoldered with this set... Poor guy whoever wins these with no soldering skills..



Yeah IINM pin 5 of one of the tubes is unsoldered...


----------



## therremans

JKDJedi said:


> And @bcowen did point out the few pins unsoldered with this set... Poor guy whoever wins these with no soldering skills..


Ah yes, that was a curve ball.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Quick shoutout to a great ebay seller out of the Netherlands.

I had a problem with a Telefunken 6080 tube I bought from him.  I decided to try it after the chatter on here about the tube.

Return shipping would be $30 or so he simply refunded my full purchase price without the need to return the tube.  

Seller's name is radioman0_14


----------



## SHIMACM

m17xr2b said:


> With TV7 it's always important the sellers give the min value.  The 60% rule still applies, so on that tester 36 is the minimum value, meaning 60 is the new value (60% of 60 is 36). So in this case above 60 is better than new value which is about expected for nos.



Let me go back to the subject a little bit.

In this listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-...-/313439993061?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292  the seller informs that the tube measurement is 99 and the minimum is 36 on Hickok TV7.

It is possible?

If in this case 60 = 100%, would these tubes measure 165% of a NOS?


----------



## bcowen

SHIMACM said:


> Let me go back to the subject a little bit.
> 
> In this listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-...-/313439993061?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292  the seller informs that the tube measurement is 99 and the minimum is 36 on Hickok TV7.
> 
> ...


Anything is possible, of course.  Likely?  Not even close.  To have 4 tubes measure with perfectly matched triodes that are all _exactly_ the same at _well _above NOS levels is so unlikely it's almost funny.  The guy is either 1) lying, 2) has a tester that is seriously out of calibration, or 3) doesn't have a clue how to operate the tester correctly.  He might as well state they measure at 500/500....it would be no less wrong.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> Anything is possible, of course.  Likely?  Not even close.  To have 4 tubes measure with perfectly matched triodes that are all _exactly_ the same at _well _above NOS levels is so unlikely it's almost funny.  The guy is either 1) lying, 2) has a tester that is seriously out of calibration, or 3) doesn't have a clue how to operate the tester correctly.  He might as well state they measure at 500/500....it would be no less wrong.



But the tubes are so shiny


----------



## m17xr2b

Small signal tubes can measure 150%+ but a 6080 is a stretch.  He might be drunk on the profits from the other bendix quad. Good seller otherwise, very happy with the tubes I got from him.


----------



## Velozity (Mar 3, 2021)

That's why I love my Jackson 648-S tester.  It reads in percentages of NOS.  No conversions or unique thresholds required.  100 = 100% of NOS.  Most of my new tubes test between 100 and 120.


----------



## UntilThen

Take my pair of Bendix 6080wb and give me a pair of GEC KT88. Thanks in advance.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Take my pair of Bendix 6080wb and give me a pair of GEC KT88. Thanks in advance.


Why don't you just give me the pair of Bendix and we'll call it even? No need to make this overly complicated.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Why don't you just give me the pair of Bendix and we'll call it even? No need to make this overly complicated.


That's not a trade then. That's robbing Robin Hood.


----------



## tuburielectronice70

About matching tubes, is not enough to be matched with same plate current, transconductance is important too. Same current and same transconductance means perfect superimposed curves, different transconductance means different directions for curves, maybe they meet only in one point. And 100% as datasheet says is only a target for producer, in fact tubes have +/-30, even +/-40% spread.
One 6080 Philips tested show 95% plate current for one triode, value in good range but only 5mA/V - means end of life. From 9 tubes (6 x 6080 and 3 x 6AS7), only one nice balanced tube, 110/110% plate current and 7.88/7.75mA/V, another Philips 197/167% and 9.63/9.38mA/V.
I tested many thousands of tubes, only few 6080/6AS7, few hundreds on 6N13S and 6N5S.


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 3, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> Let me go back to the subject a little bit.
> 
> In this listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Vintage-...-/313439993061?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292  the seller informs that the tube measurement is 99 and the minimum is 36 on Hickok TV7.
> 
> ...


I think here above 60 is considered tested as GOOD (Some testers start at 70).  Depending on the shape of the tube when it left the factory it could be any number really. If these are tested at 99.. and are true 99...that's pretty good, and besides the pins..these look to be in excellent condition.


----------



## tuburielectronice70

I looked a little over TV-7 specs and I saw that is not a very good tube tester, it shows if a tube is good or bad but is far for being appropriate for matching tubes. In fact is only a mutual conductance tester - gm or S-, no plate current indications. A statement "matched using TV-7 tube tester " is false. No stabilized voltages inside, bias is set only with pot scale - no instrument readings for plate voltage, filament voltage, bias, screen etc. One rectifier tube inside. Compare it with russian L3-3 that offer readings on instrument for any voltage or current, even grid current in nanoampere range, all voltages stabilized (except heater), 12 tubes inside (rectifier is SS).
So, TV-7 (TV7D, TV7DU etc.) don't say much about a tube, only mutual conductance with a minimum value, under this value tube is garbage.
I use an L3-3 only to test rectifiers, it uses full load and full voltage to test them, for any other tubes I use a digital tube tester more expensive and hard to get but one click and I have few pages with all data and curves.


----------



## JKDJedi

tuburielectronice70 said:


> I looked a little over TV-7 specs and I saw that is not a very good tube tester, it shows if a tube is good or bad but is far for being appropriate for matching tubes. In fact is only a mutual conductance tester - gm or S-, no plate current indications. A statement "matched using TV-7 tube tester " is false. No stabilized voltages inside, bias is set only with pot scale - no instrument readings for plate voltage, filament voltage, bias, screen etc. One rectifier tube inside. Compare it with russian L3-3 that offer readings on instrument for any voltage or current, even grid current in nanoampere range, all voltages stabilized (except heater), 12 tubes inside (rectifier is SS).
> So, TV-7 (TV7D, TV7DU etc.) don't say much about a tube, only mutual conductance with a minimum value, under this value tube is garbage.
> I use an L3-3 only to test rectifiers, it uses full load and full voltage to test them, for any other tubes I use a digital tube tester more expensive and hard to get but one click and I have few pages with all data and curves





tuburielectronice70 said:


> I looked a little over TV-7 specs and I saw that is not a very good tube tester, it shows if a tube is good or bad but is far for being appropriate for matching tubes. In fact is only a mutual conductance tester - gm or S-, no plate current indications. A statement "matched using TV-7 tube tester " is false. No stabilized voltages inside, bias is set only with pot scale - no instrument readings for plate voltage, filament voltage, bias, screen etc. One rectifier tube inside. Compare it with russian L3-3 that offer readings on instrument for any voltage or current, even grid current in nanoampere range, all voltages stabilized (except heater), 12 tubes inside (rectifier is SS).
> So, TV-7 (TV7D, TV7DU etc.) don't say much about a tube, only mutual conductance with a minimum value, under this value tube is garbage.
> I use an L3-3 only to test rectifiers, it uses full load and full voltage to test them, for any other tubes I use a digital tube tester more expensive and hard to get but one click and I have few pages with all data and curves.


I'm laughing that your saying it's "only" a mutual conductance tester... For the casual user it's plenty, what you got appears to be for "Professional" use .


----------



## tuburielectronice70 (Mar 4, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> I'm laughing that your saying it's "only" a mutual conductance tester... For the casual user it's plenty, what you got appears to be for "Professional" use .


What I want to say is that 2 tubes / 2 triodes in same tube with the same or close gm can't be considered matched. Two tubes are matched when their Ug/Ip curves are superimposed - is the best matching method, or when Ip and gm are the same or close, only one parameter, Ip or gm, is not enough. I saw a listing on eBay saying "matched 10% gm". For my curiosity I checked in a list with results from a batch of 100 tubes 6N6P and with 10% gm criteria 76 tubes were matched. In fact I could select from that batch one quad and 8 pairs with tight tolerance and another 11 acceptable pairs. Over 50% from double tubes have more than 10% differences between inside systems and are unmatchable.
In photo can be seen 4 curves from 2 tubes 6N13S, is very rare such pair.


----------



## gibosi

INHO, it is best not to make "perfect" the enemy of "good".


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.  Balanced triodes at NOS levels...


----------



## cddc

tuburielectronice70 said:


> What I want to say is that 2 tubes / 2 triodes in same tube with the same or close gm can't be considered matched. Two tubes are matched when their Ug/Ip curves are superimposed - is the best matching method, or when Ip and gm are the same or close, only one parameter, Ip or gm, is not enough. I saw a listing on eBay saying "matched 10% gm". For my curiosity I checked in a list with results from a batch of 100 tubes 6N6P and with 10% gm criteria 76 tubes were matched. In fact I could select from that batch one quad and 8 pairs with tight tolerance and another 11 acceptable pairs. Over 50% from double tubes have more than 10% differences between inside systems and are unmatchable.
> In photo can be seen 4 curves from 2 tubes 6N13S, is very rare such pair.




I must agree first that the best tube matching is done with curve tracers, like the one you just showed. 

But is it necessary that we have to match tubes on some curve tracer? I doubt it. 

First, I will say over 99% of the average Joe tube users know nothing about how to interpret/understand those tube curves displayed on curve tracers, and how to set up the parameters to get those curves. I will just leave those curves to the engineers who need to design circuits based on tube characteristic curves.

Second, is tube matching that important? It's important only if you are using tubes in some push-pull amp designs, a mismatched pair can create distortion in those push-pull circuits. But for tubes like 6AS7G/6080, most of them are not used in push-pull amps, instead most of them are used in OTL amps, where push-pull is not employed and tube matching doesn't really matter at all. You can barely hear a difference on tubes with even 20% difference on these OTL amps and no distortion will be generated due to mismatch, not to mention that auto-biasing used in these OTL amps will reduce the imbalance to trivial.

Third, in reality we care most about the conditions of NOS tubes, if they are still healthy or are on their last legs. A simple emission tester can get this job done. A more sophisticated mutual conductance tester like TV-7 is even better. They can show people if a tube is in good healthy condition. Matching emission/mutual conductance is nice to have as a by-product for tubes not used in push-pull circuits, but not necessary at all.


----------



## tuburielectronice70

@cddc you are perfectly right, tube matching is crucial in PP and parallel SE configurations. 
My idea was that a buyer must not believe that those 6080/6AS7 tested with TV7 and with close values are matched.
Right now I'm working to a headphone amplifier using 1/2 E188CC and 2 x russian 6S19P triodes per channel, I select each component, resistors, capacitors, tubes etc. with no more than 1% far from schematic or datasheet specifications. Not all component are crucial but as a whole I think that I'll get more symmetrical output and low distortions. 
On the other hand I know peoples who have very expensive preamps and amps, they buy tubes and came to me for tests before inserting them in amps, when they see even acceptable like 10% differences they say "this is garbage" and let the tubes at me in change for some services, somehow I understand them, if they spent few thousands for their audio line will search for the best tubes, even they loose few hundreds in this search.


----------



## attmci (Mar 4, 2021)

JKDJedi said:


> I think here above 60 is considered tested as GOOD (Some testers start at 70).  Depending on the shape of the tube when it left the factory it could be any number really. If these are tested at 99.. and are true 99...that's pretty good, and besides the pins..these look to be in excellent condition.


Some serious buyer there. Hmmm.

The tubes appear to be NIB. Who care about the testing results if you can afford.


----------



## SHIMACM

attmci said:


> Some serious buyer there. Hmmm.
> 
> The tubes appear to be NIB. Who care about the testing results if you can afford.



What is NIB?


----------



## maxpudding

SHIMACM said:


> What is NIB?


New In Box


----------



## SHIMACM

maxpudding said:


> New In Box



Thanks! My mother tongue is Portuguese, so there are times when I get involved with certain terms.


----------



## JKDJedi

tuburielectronice70 said:


> @cddc you are perfectly right, tube matching is crucial in PP and parallel SE configurations.
> My idea was that a buyer must not believe that those 6080/6AS7 tested with TV7 and with close values are matched.
> Right now I'm working to a headphone amplifier using 1/2 E188CC and 2 x russian 6S19P triodes per channel, I select each component, resistors, capacitors, tubes etc. with no more than 1% far from schematic or datasheet specifications. Not all component are crucial but as a whole I think that I'll get more symmetrical output and low distortions.
> On the other hand I know peoples who have very expensive preamps and amps, they buy tubes and came to me for tests before inserting them in amps, when they see even acceptable like 10% differences they say "this is garbage" and let the tubes at me in change for some services, somehow I understand them, if they spent few thousands for their audio line will search for the best tubes, even they loose few hundreds in this search.





attmci said:


> Some serious buyer there. Hmmm.
> 
> The tubes appear to be NIB. Who care about the testing results if you can afford.


Have one if these and they are SPECTACULAR compared to the other Bendix I got to sample... These might be the creme de le creme of Bendix..


----------



## kkrazik2008

Look what arrived today


----------



## bcowen

kkrazik2008 said:


> Look what arrived today


Sweet!!  Have you tried it out yet?


----------



## kkrazik2008

bcowen said:


> Sweet!!  Have you tried it out yet?


Thank! 
Only briefly, as I had a day full of meetings, it sounds pretty damn good. I’ve had a few different equivalents and they all have various strengths. This one has some tight bass that is a mix between my 6080 and 7236, as in the best attributes of each. More listening to be had tonight.


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Mar 6, 2021)

Just a note on test results and testers for 6AS7/6080 tubes. The 6080 with its relatively large 2.5A filament draw, and low impedance makes it a problematic tube for many testers to make sense of. For testers  that supply heater and plate voltages all from the same transformer, the 2.5A filament can cause significant voltage sag and throw off the testing points for all parameters, hence making the values somewhat skewed. This is especially true in testers which derive results (e.g. Hickok testers).

As for the well-regarded AVO testers, which have multiple transformers dedicated to each different voltage parameter on the tube, there is a somewhat different problem when testing plate current (and subsequently GM which depends on mA). 6080 tubes have low Ra of 250ohms which is too near the anode current measurement resistor (in the CT160 tester, picture a few pages back, this value is 200 ohms). Although the AVO manuals and datasheets give a reading of 100%= 50ma for conditions -40V grid 100V anode, they also have a footnote stating that results should be expected to differ *drastically *from this, and to simply compare results to a known good 6080/6AS7 for relative goodness. On my own CT160, with several known good NOS/NIB 6080/6AS7 at the above parameters, I get a reading of 17-23ma. The ultra-sensitive meter on the AVO testers certainly don't help either, and getting a reproducible GM/transconductance reading is extremely difficult with the needle constantly jumping around. I have seen similar phenomenon on the Mk2/3/4 testers too. Trusted sellers with VCM163 testers also have their own values of known good relative points they test too which differ from tester to tester, calibration to calibration. For that reason I usually test 6080/6AS7 on a Hickok for GM against a few known good tubes and if absolutely necessary the plate current on the CT160 again by relative goodness. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's experiences testing these tubes!

For these reasons I am always sceptical when sellers come up with strong claims for their tested 6080/6AS7s especially regarding plate current; we are likely trusting the best tube they own to be their reference point for 100%. It is not unknown for sellers to make up values too once they find they can't test them accurately. That said, GM results being given relative to a minimum good value are quite meaningful (e.g. TV-7 results)- but again only meaningful as a *relative *goodness measurement. To get truly accurate, numerically meaningful results, you would probably have to build a curve tracer with the appropriate power transformers and ensure the current circuit is appropriate for these tubes. My principle is to only buy these tubes if their minimum good and known good values are specified clearly-or buy them untested for cheap and test them myself


----------



## CADCAM

Seems like a deal...any input?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNG-SOL-6...954046?hash=item3db83c237e:g:DP8AAOSwJeRgSSyx


----------



## JKDJedi (Mar 10, 2021)

CADCAM said:


> Seems like a deal...any input?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNG-SOL-6...954046?hash=item3db83c237e:g:DP8AAOSwJeRgSSyx


sold! Yes good deal. *Tung Sol (Chatham) 6080 *sounds great paired with the Raytheon VT231.


----------



## Ripper2860

Disregard  😄


----------



## JKDJedi

tintinsnowydog said:


> Just a note on test results and testers for 6AS7/6080 tubes. The 6080 with its relatively large 2.5A filament draw, and low impedance makes it a problematic tube for many testers to make sense of. For testers  that supply heater and plate voltages all from the same transformer, the 2.5A filament can cause significant voltage sag and throw off the testing points for all parameters, hence making the values somewhat skewed. This is especially true in testers which derive results (e.g. Hickok testers).
> 
> As for the well-regarded AVO testers, which have multiple transformers dedicated to each different voltage parameter on the tube, there is a somewhat different problem when testing plate current (and subsequently GM which depends on mA). 6080 tubes have low Ra of 250ohms which is too near the anode current measurement resistor (in the CT160 tester, picture a few pages back, this value is 200 ohms). Although the AVO manuals and datasheets give a reading of 100%= 50ma for conditions -40V grid 100V anode, they also have a footnote stating that results should be expected to differ *drastically *from this, and to simply compare results to a known good 6080/6AS7 for relative goodness. On my own CT160, with several known good NOS/NIB 6080/6AS7 at the above parameters, I get a reading of 17-23ma. The ultra-sensitive meter on the AVO testers certainly don't help either, and getting a reproducible GM/transconductance reading is extremely difficult with the needle constantly jumping around. I have seen similar phenomenon on the Mk2/3/4 testers too. Trusted sellers with VCM163 testers also have their own values of known good relative points they test too which differ from tester to tester, calibration to calibration. For that reason I usually test 6080/6AS7 on a Hickok for GM against a few known good tubes and if absolutely necessary the plate current on the CT160 again by relative goodness. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's experiences testing these tubes!
> 
> For these reasons I am always sceptical when sellers come up with strong claims for their tested 6080/6AS7s especially regarding plate current; we are likely trusting the best tube they own to be their reference point for 100%. It is not unknown for sellers to make up values too once they find they can't test them accurately. That said, GM results being given relative to a minimum good value are quite meaningful (e.g. TV-7 results)- but again only meaningful as a *relative *goodness measurement. To get truly accurate, numerically meaningful results, you would probably have to build a curve tracer with the appropriate power transformers and ensure the current circuit is appropriate for these tubes. My principle is to only buy these tubes if their minimum good and known good values are specified clearly-or buy them untested for cheap and test them myself


Probably best way to go about it, think they're called "Bogey" tubes? A known good tube tested from a reputable friend, dealer, member.. and zero in your settings to that tube and then compare the unknowns from there on. Marking your tubes (on the box) with test numbers helps the same, Is it human nature to distrust everyone elses numbers but your own? o.O


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> Disregard  😄


You grabbed another Tung Sol!?


----------



## Ripper2860

No.  I thought it was supposed to be a Raytheon after skimming your post and saw it was a TS in the link / pic.  I got confused briefly and then sorted it out. Happens more often than ever now.  😆


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> No.  I thought it was supposed to be a Raytheon after skimming your post and saw it was a TS in the link / pic.  I got confused briefly and then sorted it out. Happens more often than ever now.  😆


Briefly?


----------



## JKDJedi

Ripper2860 said:


> No.  I thought it was supposed to be a Raytheon after skimming your post and saw it was a TS in the link / pic.  I got confused briefly and then sorted it out. Happens more often than ever now.  😆





Ripper2860 said:


> No.  I thought it was supposed to be a Raytheon after skimming your post and saw it was a TS in the link / pic.  I got confused briefly and then sorted it out. Happens more often than ever now.  😆


Think I'm Dyslexic.. fixed it..


----------



## hp4fun

JKDJedi said:


> sold! Yes good deal. *Tung Sol (Chatham) 6080 *sounds great paired with the Raytheon VT231.



I have TS 6080WA on the shelf for months. I did not like them because they were dry. But after reading your recommendation, possibly because I did not have a good driver tubes?

I can only use 6SJ7. Maybe time to start another round of hunting of driver tubes......


----------



## mayurs

Another vote for TS 6080 and Raytheon VT231 parallel plates. Its very transparent with great dynamics. Only issue is that a very low hum due to the VT231s on my Euforia which is inaudible when music starts. I am loving thos combo so much that I am getting another pair of these for my tube collection.


----------



## SHIMACM

I love the TS 6080. But it needs the right pairing.

It sounds great with sylvania 6j5gt, Melz 1578, Tung-sol 6j5g and Brimar 6sn7.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JKDJedi said:


> sold! Yes good deal. *Tung Sol (Chatham) 6080 *sounds great paired with the Raytheon VT231.


Did you offload the TS I sold you?


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Did you offload the TS I sold you?


In my amp as we speak... 🙂


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> No.  I thought it was supposed to be a Raytheon after skimming your post and saw it was a TS in the link / pic.  I got confused briefly and then sorted it out. Happens more often than ever now.  😆


Oh oh:  “briefly” + “more often” ===> continuous...


----------



## attmci

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Be...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Who got this pair?


----------



## Smallpie

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Bendix-JAN-CEA-6080WB-Solid-Graphite-Plate-Vacuum-Tubes-/224382091207?emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkevt=1&crd=20210312072222&osub=-1~1&mkpid=0&mkcid=7&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,ut=ut,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid&ut=RU&ch=osgood&segname=11021&bu=43143433688&euid=eeaafb39b3c044a09c744ebaa7da9b88&nma=true&si=kqteQQArJLhV%2BkRG4FQUffFR2ew%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> Who got this pair?


Hand raised


----------



## attmci (Mar 12, 2021)

Akiravelvet said:


> Hand raised


That's fast. 
Happy St. Patrick's day!


----------



## attmci




----------



## Velozity

Just a heads up guys, this weekend I'll be reselling these Tung-Sol / Bendix 6080WB graphite plate tubes I recently bought from another Head-fi'er.  Shortly after I received these I found a pair of original Bendix with original boxes and since I'd rather not keep 3 sets I'm letting this one go.  I have my own pictures I'll post in classifieds and I also tested them on my tester and in my Glenn OTL.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sold-tung-sol-6080-graphite-base-power-tubes-sold.956113/


----------



## attmci

Velozity said:


> Just a heads up guys, this weekend I'll be reselling these Tung-Sol / Bendix 6080WB graphite plate tubes I recently bought from another Head-fi'er.  Shortly after I received these I found a pair of original Bendix with original boxes and since I'd rather not keep 3 sets I'm letting this one go.  I have my own pictures I'll post in classifieds and I also tested them on my tester and in my Glenn OTL.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sold-tung-sol-6080-graphite-base-power-tubes-sold.956113/


After the sell, could you share your opinions on the difference between the TS and Bendix?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Out of curiosity, what is the difference in a 421a and a 422a?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-WESTERN-...129008?hash=item46c09b87b0:g:4noAAOSwp~pf0Vzo


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Out of curiosity, what is the difference in a 421a and a 422a?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-WESTERN-...129008?hash=item46c09b87b0:g:4noAAOSwp~pf0Vzo



421A is a Western Electric 5998
422A is a Western Electric rectifier

And both are expensive.


----------



## Smallpie

That listing has horrib


PsilocybinCube said:


> Out of curiosity, what is the difference in a 421a and a 422a?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-WESTERN-...129008?hash=item46c09b87b0:g:4noAAOSwp~pf0Vzo


That listing has horribly measured tubes. Hence why they don’t sell


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> 421A is a Western Electric 5998
> 422A is a Western Electric rectifier
> 
> And both are expensive.


And just to add, plugging one in to the socket intended for the other will cause unhappiness.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> And just to add, plugging one in to the socket intended for the other will cause unhappiness.


Good to know!  I purchased a Mullard 421a recently for relatively cheap ($150) and have been very happy with it.  Then I saw the 422a and thought 'It's +1 better than a 421a.'

But that logic appears to be wrong 

In other news, my Bendix 6080 with the giant crack in the plate finally gave up.  I turned it on in my BHC and the little pieces of dust that fall as a result of the plate cracking must have hit something electrified and little sparks started flying.  Thankfully, I wasn't listening and didn't have headphones plugged in.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Good to know!  I purchased a Mullard 421a recently for relatively cheap ($150) and have been very happy with it.  Then I saw the 422a and thought 'It's +1 better than a 421a.'
> 
> But that logic appears to be wrong
> 
> In other news, my Bendix 6080 with the giant crack in the plate finally gave up.  I turned it on in my BHC and the little pieces of dust that fall as a result of the plate cracking must have hit something electrified and little sparks started flying.  Thankfully, I wasn't listening and didn't have headphones plugged in.


LOL!  All we need is a 423A then.    

Mullard never made a 421A to my knowledge.  Got a pic of it?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> LOL!  All we need is a 423A then.
> 
> Mullard never made a 421A to my knowledge.  Got a pic of it?


Attached!  It's not a good pic, but it is the tube that was in when I took this picture the other day.  I was trying to show off how well I'd matched my headphone stand to my amp from @Paladin79   I will take an up close pic when I'm back home tonight or early tomorrow.


It's definitely just a WE (or a 5998) branded as Mullard.  Here's the original listing:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254838057507?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648

Currently, I'm demoing my long-awaited Verite on the BHC, but can't wait to try it on the Incubus!!!


----------



## therremans

PsilocybinCube said:


> Good to know!  I purchased a Mullard 421a recently for relatively cheap ($150) and have been very happy with it.  Then I saw the 422a and thought 'It's +1 better than a 421a.'
> 
> But that logic appears to be wrong
> 
> In other news, my Bendix 6080 with the giant crack in the plate finally gave up.  I turned it on in my BHC and the little pieces of dust that fall as a result of the plate cracking must have hit something electrified and little sparks started flying.  Thankfully, I wasn't listening and didn't have headphones plugged in.


My condolences.


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Attached!  It's not a good pic, but it is the tube that was in when I took this picture the other day.  I was trying to show off how well I'd matched my headphone stand to my amp from @Paladin79   I will take an up close pic when I'm back home tonight or early tomorrow.
> 
> 
> It's definitely just a WE (or a 5998) branded as Mullard.  Here's the original listing:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254838057507?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648
> ...



Given that WE421A rarely have top mounted getter holders, I would guess that it is a Tung-Sol 5998.


----------



## maxpudding

The TS 5998 will get you close to the WE 421a sound.

Apart from the mullard rebrand, I’ve also seen a National Union rebrand of the 5998.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Attached!  It's not a good pic, but it is the tube that was in when I took this picture the other day.  I was trying to show off how well I'd matched my headphone stand to my amp from @Paladin79   I will take an up close pic when I'm back home tonight or early tomorrow.
> 
> 
> It's definitely just a WE (or a 5998) branded as Mullard.  Here's the original listing:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-421A-TUBE-NOS/254838057507?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648
> ...


Those may well be my next headphones but they have to offer improvements over the Utopia's, they really open up the Incubus.   

Time for Irish music and a fine stout.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> Given that WE421A rarely have top mounted getter holders, I would guess that it is a Tung-Sol 5998.


Have you seen a non-clear-top 421?


----------



## JKDJedi

attmci said:


> Have you seen a non-clear-top 421?


Think @gibosi has one of them


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> Think @gibosi has one of them


Most likely a 5998?


----------



## maxpudding

12 x 5998s

$400 each

Free international shipping


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> 12 x 5998s
> 
> $400 each
> 
> Free international shipping


Free shipping?  What a deal!!

LOL....bet those will sit there for quite some time at that price.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> Have you seen a non-clear-top 421?



No, I have never seen a non-clear-top 421. But others claim they have. And if I were to claim that they don't exist, you can bet someone would post a picture of one! So my positon is that they are "rare". lol 

And @JKDJedi, for the record I don't have even one 421. But someday I hope to get lucky and stumble across a cheap pair.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> Free shipping?  What a deal!!
> 
> LOL....bet those will sit there for quite some time at that price.



LOL, exactly, but the seller can accept offers; I wonder how low can you go when $400 apiece is the starting price.


----------



## attmci

maxpudding said:


> 12 x 5998s
> 
> $400 each
> 
> Free international shipping


Brand new but no box is the concern. Also the $400 price is way too high. 

BTW, who the hell care about the shipping...here.


----------



## attmci (Mar 20, 2021)

gibosi said:


> No, I have never seen a non-clear-top 421. But others claim they have. And if I were to claim that they don't exist, you can bet someone would post a picture of one! So my positon is that they are "rare". lol
> 
> And @JKDJedi, for the record I don't have even one 421. But someday I hope to get lucky and stumble across a cheap pair.


You have the clear-top. So there is no need to hunt 421A. I have about 5 pairs of those (used/NOS; none NIB), and haven't touched the 421a for a long time. Tubes are consumables....it will die or degrade in 1 or 2 years.

I do have tube tester, and can tell the difference of NOS tube and used tubes in my settings. I am not going to argue with the others have difference opinions.


----------



## cddc

maxpudding said:


> LOL, exactly, but the seller can accept offers; I wonder how low can you go when $400 apiece is the starting price.




IMHO, stay away from these greedy Italian sellers, they are likely some aliases of the notorious "Italian BangyBang" *wege_high_tubes*, aka BangioBang (named by @jonathan c )


----------



## m17xr2b

Besides that I'd stay away from Italian shipping all together. I've bought a pair of used Mundorf supreme capacitors, the border at Italy drilled my seller about the contents and were overbearing, now the package has reached UK, I've got the same issue of overzealous customs just because it's from Italy.  I usually see Italy singled out and excluded from ebay listings and it's no wonder.


----------



## JKDJedi

m17xr2b said:


> You have the clear-top. So there is no need to hunt 421A. I have about 5 pairs of those, an
> 
> 
> attmci said:
> ...


I  hope that's not true.. only two years use..yikes..


----------



## attmci

JKDJedi said:


> I  hope that's not true.. only two years use..yikes..


It can last years if you rotate tubes ...... But sadly, they won't last forever.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 20, 2021)

attmci said:


> You have the clear-top. So there is no need to hunt 421A. I have about 5 pairs of those, and haven't touched the 421a for a long time. Tubes are consumables....it will die or degrade in 1 or 2 years.


This is more alarmist than factual.  On a purely technical basis, yes, tubes start to degrade the moment you plug them in as electrons start to boil off the cathode coating.  How long the tube ultimately lasts is dependent on the quality of the tube itself, how much it's used, and more importantly, what voltages it is subjected to in the particular component.  I have a pair of 300B's (outputs) and CV378's (rectifiers) that have been going for almost 20 years, and still sound as good as a new pair and still test quite well to boot.  OTOH, if anyone remembers the Audible Illusions Modulus 3B, it ate tubes for breakfast.  6 months tops, and usually less.  The tubes were juiced SO hard that some vendors (like Upscale Audio) ceased selling tubes to anyone using them in that preamp.  On a more normal basis and assuming a tube is run at reasonable and conservative voltages I would expect most octals (small drivers and even power tubes) to last 5 years with minimal degradation.  Rectifier tubes can last 30+ years if they are run conservatively.


----------



## HPAholic

1962 | Bendix JAN-CEA-6080WB slotted plate with copper grid post ...


----------



## bcowen

HPAholic said:


> 1962 | Bendix JAN-CEA-6080WB slotted plate with copper grid post ...


Very nice!!!


----------



## Smallpie

HPAholic said:


> 1962 | Bendix JAN-CEA-6080WB slotted plate with copper grid post ...


You grab these off eBay last week?


----------



## Deceneu808

Don't know if it's been posted. I'd buy 4 myself but sellers does not ship outside the US 

https://cutt.ly/ixd94ra


----------



## JTbbb

Deceneu808 said:


> Don't know if it's been posted. I'd buy 4 myself but sellers does not ship outside the US
> 
> https://cutt.ly/ixd94ra



This seems to becoming more prevalent in recent times and I don’t fully understand why? It has been suggested to me that to post items outside of the USA you have to visit a post office. Whereas internal post can be collected from their mailboxes at the end of their driveways?


----------



## Deceneu808

JTbbb said:


> This seems to becoming more prevalent in recent times and I don’t fully understand why? It has been suggested to me that to post items outside of the USA you have to visit a post office. Whereas internal post can be collected from their mailboxes at the end of their driveways?


Maybe something like that but it's just a trip to the post office... I don't get it. I'll even pay 60 bucks to have it shipped via UPS in 5 days but most seem to deny my offer


----------



## JTbbb

Deceneu808 said:


> Maybe something like that but it's just a trip to the post office... I don't get it. I'll even pay 60 bucks to have it shipped via UPS in 5 days but most seem to deny my offer



I think we forget how vast the USA is. I can walk to my nearest post office in 10 minutes, could be a 60 mile round trip plus in the States.


----------



## HPAholic

Akiravelvet said:


> You grab these off eBay last week?


Yes, off eBay last week.  

Currently working on securing some of these 1953 WE 5998/421A ...


----------



## thecrow

cddc said:


> IMHO, stay away from these greedy Italian sellers, they are likely some aliases of the notorious *"Italian BangyBang"* *wege_high_tubes*, aka BangioBang (named by @jonathan c )


you mean they are an Italian political party?


----------



## cddc

LOL...there could be a BangioBang party, a branch of the American BangyBang party


----------



## cddc

We've known some members of the BangyBang party - BangyBang, Menifee_Audio, FallAngelFall, etc.

But little we know about the BangioBang party, other than wege_high_tubes.


----------



## bcowen

thecrow said:


> you mean they are an Italian political party?


Probably more like an offshoot of the Italian mafia.


----------



## attmci

We are under attack from the mafia.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6080-C...pV101HighAdFee&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219



https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6080-C...pV101HighAdFee&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219


----------



## cddc

attmci said:


> We are under attack from the mafia.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/GEC-6080-CV2984-OO-Getter-NOS-NIB-Gold-Grids-Black-Plate-Triple-Mica-One-Pair/164508236603?_trkparms=aid=1110018&algo=HOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS&ao=1&asc=231514&meid=2f84e48a7f3b4f439fe3f0ee1b9ecc93&pid=101196&rk=3&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=193979837386&itm=164508236603&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=ItemStripV101HighAdFee&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219
> 
> ...




Okay, so now we have a Vietnamese offshoot.

I have noticed this Vietnamese seller for some time now. I find him *very** sneaky* on test values. He has a TV-7 tester, but oftentimes he claims his tubes tested NOS on his TV-7 but without providing detailed measurement values. And he's demanding extremely high prices for those "NOS" tubes without measurements.

Obviously some noob has already fallen victim to him.


----------



## HPAholic (Mar 22, 2021)

This seller always has listing for ultra rare, missing link, grail stuff at stratosphere $$$ ... "He has a TV-7 tester" then put the results in the listing.


----------



## jonathan c

cddc said:


> Okay, so now we have a Vietnamese offshoot.
> 
> I have noticed this Vietnamese seller for some time now. I find him *very** sneaky* on test values. He has a TV-7 tester, but oftentimes he claims his tubes tested NOS on his TV-7 but without providing detailed measurement values. And he's demanding extremely high prices for those "NOS" tubes without measurements.
> 
> Obviously some noob has already fallen victim to him.


NOS = No Operating Statistics...


----------



## PsilocybinCube

What am I seeing here?  Is this just a Flying C with 'Made in England' printed on it?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BOXED-...154580?hash=item44774a9c94:g:r9IAAOSwqvFgSoN3


----------



## cddc

PsilocybinCube said:


> What am I seeing here?  Is this just a Flying C with 'Made in England' printed on it?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BOXED-...154580?hash=item44774a9c94:g:r9IAAOSwqvFgSoN3




You are correct, it's actually a Russian Svetlana Winged C tube, the UFO getter is the telltale of those Russian tubes.

I've seen these fake Amperex 6AS7G several times, Amperex never made any 6080/6AS7G tubes as far as I know.

Stay away from this fake Amperex 6AS7G, these tubes can often be found around $10 + shipping, the listed price is a sheer rip-off.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

cddc said:


> You are correct, it's actually a Russian Svetlana Winged C tube, the UFO getter is the telltale of those Russian tubes.
> 
> I've seen these fake Amperex 6AS7G several times, Amperex never made any 6080/6AS7G tubes as far as I know.
> 
> Stay away from this fake Amperex 6AS7G, these tubes can often be found around $10 + shipping, the listed price is a sheer rip-off.


Thanks for confirming.  

I think the best advice I've ever gotten on this forum is to pay attention most to tube construction.  

They sure played fast and loose with 'Made in xxxxx' back in the day.


----------



## cddc

Last time I saw a similar fake Amperex 6AS7G was about one year ago, when @bcowen posted a pic of his NIB "Amperex 6AS7G" tube, luckily he didn't pay big bucks on it, so no damage was done. @bcowen can possibly chime in on how the "made-in-England Amperex 6AS7G" differs from the Russian Winged/Flying C 6AS7G tube.


----------



## EJSorona

What I have available at local vacuum tube dealers is: Haltron England (no coat on top), RCA (coated on top). There're other ones, but are single units. I need a matched pair for consistency. 
My tube amp has two RCA 6080 tubes. I notice the right one has less coating on top, shines a mite dimmer than the other, which makes its corresponding pre-amp tube shine dimmer than the other one. I noticed that on every pre-amp tube I rolled, even factory matched pairs like PSVANE CV181TII, or JAN Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA.
Maybe those 6080 need replacement.


----------



## gibosi

You might be right...  But it is important to remember that these old tubes were handmade on an assembly line. And therefore, they are not all exactly the same which can result in different amounts of getter splash on the top, or a bit more distance between electrodes resulting in some "shining" more than the others. And these small differences are rarely important. My advice, trust your ears.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> What am I seeing here?  Is this just a Flying C with 'Made in England' printed on it?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BOXED-...154580?hash=item44774a9c94:g:r9IAAOSwqvFgSoN3


Yup. Exactly. A very nice $15 tube.  $150?  LOL!!!


----------



## bcowen

cddc said:


> Last time I saw a similar fake Amperex 6AS7G was about one year ago, when @bcowen posted a pic of his NIB "Amperex 6AS7G" tube, luckily he didn't pay big bucks on it, so no damage was done. @bcowen can possibly chime in on how the "made-in-England Amperex 6AS7G" differs from the Russian Winged/Flying C 6AS7G tube.


No difference at all other than the printing on the bottle.  It's a nice sounding tube, but the UFO getters are the dead giveaway it's a Russian made tube.  At a price of $15 - $20, it's a good buy (IMO).  But you get the same thing with a Winged C Svetlana.


----------



## Dogmatrix

PsilocybinCube said:


> Thanks for confirming.
> 
> I think the best advice I've ever gotten on this forum is to pay attention most to tube construction.
> 
> They sure played fast and loose with 'Made in xxxxx' back in the day.


Generally these thing revolved around tax avoidance with different rules on how much handling was required to qualify as "made in xxxxx " . In some countries pulling a tube out of a bulk box , printing a label on it and putting it in a locally printed single box was enough to avoid import duties . In other places like Australia some manufacturing process was required , so plate and grid assemblies called cages were imported complete then locally put into glass and completed . I have "Australian made" Philips , Mullard and Telefunken tubes produced this way .


----------



## Smallpie

bcowen said:


> Yup. Exactly. A very nice $15 tube.  $150?  LOL!!!


I hit up the seller just to politely tell him what you guys said and he was very nice and thankful. I just checked and he took it down due to the error. So this is a great example that hopefully not everybody is trying to scam but some might just be uninformed


----------



## HPAholic

These just landed so welcome to the family ...


----------



## bcowen

HPAholic said:


> These just landed so welcome to the family ...


OK, I'm officially jealous.    

Nice score!!


----------



## skhan007

New guy seeking first 6as7g tube! I recently acquired my first tube headphone amp and someone recommended I learn from this thread. I have about 500 pages to catch up on.

My rookie set up is here below: Bottlehead Crack Speedball, ZMF Auteur, and RME ADI-2 DAC. If I were looking for a 6as7g (to replace the stock Philips 6080 pictured) that provided big sound stage, what would you guys recommend?

I did find some decent pricing on RCA bottom getter 6as7g and from what I've read, that may be a good start? Someone else recommended the Svetlana winged C. 

Oh, I found a seller in Utah selling a rare Amperex "Made in England" 6as7g for only $150!! I think I might jump on that one. 

Just kidding, I read the last few pages here. 

Any suggestions are most appreciated and hoping to buy something that fits the bill!!


----------



## maxpudding (Mar 29, 2021)

skhan007 said:


> New guy seeking first 6as7g tube! I recently acquired my first tube headphone amp and someone recommended I learn from this thread. I have about 500 pages to catch up on.
> 
> My rookie set up is here below: Bottlehead Crack Speedball, ZMF Auteur, and RME ADI-2 DAC. If I were looking for a 6as7g (to replace the stock Philips 6080 pictured) that provided big sound stage, what would you guys recommend?
> 
> ...


Hello and welcome

Do you have the picture of the “rare” amperex made in England tube? Lol

cc @bcowen

Anyways, you can also try 5998s..7236s...or GEC6080

or if you can get yourself a couple of adapters you can try 2x6bx7/6bl7 or 2xcv4079

beware that if you wanted try the 2x6bx7 tubes combo, your only driver tube that you can use in the bottlehead is the 12au7 tube


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> New guy seeking first 6as7g tube! I recently acquired my first tube headphone amp and someone recommended I learn from this thread. I have about 500 pages to catch up on.
> 
> My rookie set up is here below: Bottlehead Crack Speedball, ZMF Auteur, and RME ADI-2 DAC. If I were looking for a 6as7g (to replace the stock Philips 6080 pictured) that provided big sound stage, what would you guys recommend?
> 
> ...


Agree with @maxpudding 's recommendations.  Of the 3 he listed (that don't require adapters) the GEC 6080 (or a Mullard 6080, the poor man's version) will probably do the space thing best.  What type of music do you listen to mostly?  And nice rig, BTW.  Welcome to the rabbit hole club!


----------



## maxpudding

Oh and the slotted/non-slotted bendix/chatham 6080wb would sound good too 😄


----------



## skhan007

bcowen said:


> Agree with @maxpudding 's recommendations.  Of the 3 he listed (that don't require adapters) the GEC 6080 (or a Mullard 6080, the poor man's version) will probably do the space thing best.  What type of music do you listen to mostly?  And nice rig, BTW.  Welcome to the rabbit hole club!


Thank you! Rabbit hole indeed. I’ve done a lot of tube rolling on my guitar tube amps. Sadly, none of those tubes are applicable to hifi. I mostly listen to rock/Prog.



maxpudding said:


> Oh and the slotted/non-slotted bendix/chatham 6080wb would sound good too 😄


I’m taking notes! I think the hard part will be knowing where to buy and how much is too much.


----------



## bcowen (Mar 29, 2021)

skhan007 said:


> Thank you! Rabbit hole indeed. I’ve done a lot of tube rolling on my guitar tube amps. Sadly, none of those tubes are applicable to hifi. I mostly listen to rock/Prog.
> 
> 
> I’m taking notes! I think the hard part will be knowing where to buy and how much is too much.


Unless you have a tube tester, my recommendation would be to stick with a reputable dealer, at least to start.  Ebay is a crap shoot. Sometimes you can get lucky and score a nice tube (or tubes) for a bargain price, but that's becoming more and more the exception than the rule. There's also some good and reputable sellers on Ebay, just a matter of getting to know who they are. And there are some great fellow HeadFi'ers that put tubes up for sale on a regular basis.  Checking the For Sale ads here is a good place to start too.

As far as how much is too much?  If all you have in the house for dinner is Ramen noodles, that's a possible sign you may have spent too much on tubes.  Other than that, I can't think of anything.


----------



## hp4fun

bcowen said:


> Unless you have a tube tester, my recommendation would be to stick with a reputable dealer, at least to start.  Ebay is a crap shoot. Sometimes you can get lucky and score a nice tube (or tubes) for a bargain price, but that's becoming more and more the exception than the rule. There's also some good and reputable sellers on Ebay, just a matter of getting to know who they are. And there are some great fellow HeadFi'ers that put tubes up for sale on a regular basis.  Checking the For Sale ads here is a good place to start too.
> 
> As far as how much is too much?  If all you have in the house for dinner is Ramen noodles, that's a possible sign you may have spent too much on tubes.  Other than that, I can't think of anything.



It also depends your buying style. 

1) NOS perfectionist: I only buy beautiful perfect nos tubes and pay big money.

2) tester gang: I have a tester / only buy tubes that have the best test results.

3) brand lover: are you solely with Mullard or gec or tfk?

4) poor men/women: I think RCA is not bad? Everything else is diminishing returns.

5) practitioner: this tube looks dirty and the numbers are barely good. But it should still sound great!

6) reseller: I buy whatever I like, then sell at 90% of the cost. Sometimes I might even earn a panda express lunch.

7) you?


----------



## bcowen

hp4fun said:


> It also depends your buying style.
> 
> 1) NOS perfectionist: I only buy beautiful perfect nos tubes and pay big money.
> 
> ...


Me?  7) reseller: I buy whatever I like, then sell at 900% of the cost.


----------



## skhan007

Excellent advice, guys. Thank you. So here's what I'm gathering: 

I should be on the look out for GEC, Mullard, and Bendix/Chatham 6080. From the above comment from @hp4fun , maybe RCA 6SA7G is not a good buy? I see them around $40 or so. 

I'm in the practitioner camp, where if it sounds good, I'm happy. As long as the tube has legible identifiers so I can confirm its identity and it tests well. 

I'll keep my eyes on the classifieds here. Nothing there right now and keep looking at other sites, as well. If someone has one of the recommended ones above, shoot me a PM!


----------



## PsilocybinCube

skhan007 said:


> Excellent advice, guys. Thank you. So here's what I'm gathering:
> 
> I should be on the look out for GEC, Mullard, and Bendix/Chatham 6080. From the above comment from @hp4fun , maybe RCA 6SA7G is not a good buy? I see them around $40 or so.
> 
> ...


Personally I've found the 6h13c to be less expensive and better sounding than the rca fwiw


----------



## maxpudding

Agreed, you can get either the 6h13c or the 6n5s, both has the same sound to my ears, YMMV


----------



## skhan007

OK, first stop will be the 6H13C. Sounds like it's the gateway drug to the GEC, Mullard, or Chatham/Bendix 6080


----------



## hp4fun

skhan007 said:


> OK, first stop will be the 6H13C. Sounds like it's the gateway drug to the GEC, Mullard, or Chatham/Bendix 6080


I keep getting back to 6H13C, because it is not bad for easy listening and plenty available. Unless you really are hungry for hearing some specific moment in some favorite songs at your personal preference, you can stay with 6H13C for weeks.


----------



## skhan007

OK, sounds good. I'll put a WTB ad in the classifieds. If anybody is aware of where I can get a pre-owned one in the US, please let me know.


----------



## skhan007

Is the Chatham/Bendix 6080 similar or the same as the Chatham/Tung Sol 6080? Just curious, as they look about identical from images.


----------



## hp4fun

skhan007 said:


> Is the Chatham/Bendix 6080 similar or the same as the Chatham/Tung Sol 6080? Just curious, as they look about identical from images.



Yes and no. 

There are some TS 6080s that have the internal structure that is similar to one version of the Bendix 6080WB. But most of the TS 6080s are not the same.

You might be able to use the search bar in this thread to discover some of the pictures and previous discussions.


----------



## gibosi

skhan007 said:


> Is the Chatham/Bendix 6080 similar or the same as the Chatham/Tung Sol 6080? Just curious, as they look about identical from images.



If both have purplish ceramic spacers and graphite plates with no slots, they are likely the same. But as above, some Chatham/Tungsol 6080 have metal plates.


----------



## skhan007 (Mar 30, 2021)

Thanks- I'll definitely use the search function moving forward. I appreciate everyone's kindness and patience with the rookie!

I looked at some photos and noted the spacers and supports;

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-431#post-16007452

I found one just like the one pictured in the link on the right. It's $100, which seems high as others stated they've found them for $20!! Must be the additional rookie tax. Is that one a good choice (Chatham/Tung Sol)? or perhaps I need to be patient and wait for the other examples you've all suggested to surface.


----------



## hp4fun

skhan007 said:


> Thanks- I'll definitely use the search function moving forward. I appreciate everyone's kindness and patience with the rookie!
> 
> I looked at some photos and noted the spacers and supports;
> 
> ...



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-16250288

This structure is what you need to look for. Slotted or non-slotted are almost the same, and the 3rd version is the round graphite. None of them are metal plates.

$100 maybe slightly higher. I would say $70 is fair for a good to new piece. The $20 is probably the normal TS 6080 (which is not bad and great price if you can get one at this price.)


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> Thanks- I'll definitely use the search function moving forward. I appreciate everyone's kindness and patience with the rookie!
> 
> I looked at some photos and noted the spacers and supports;
> 
> ...


Well, there are two different animals at play here -- the metal plate versions and the graphite plate versions.  $100 is WAY high for a metal plate, be it Tung Sol, Bendix, or Chatham branded.  For a graphite plate?  $100 is not a bad price if the tube tests at or close to NOS levels.  The test numbers reported by some sellers on Ebay can be quite suspect, so unless it's from a reputable seller be aware of that.  The graphite plate versions are far superior to the metal plate versions (to my ears), and many say the slotted graphite plates are better than the solid graphite plate versions. I only have the solid plate type so can't personally comment on that.


----------



## maxpudding

Last week I received a slotted graphite bendix 6080wb from a fellow head-fier here, to my ears the tube is more dynamic with better soundstage than the solid 6080wb. No wonder it can fetch a high price.


----------



## Velozity

skhan007 said:


> Excellent advice, guys. Thank you. So here's what I'm gathering:
> 
> I should be on the look out for GEC, Mullard, and Bendix/Chatham 6080. From the above comment from @hp4fun , maybe RCA 6SA7G is not a good buy? I see them around $40 or so.
> 
> ...



The RCA is a good tube, don't let anyone tell you different, lol.  Seriously it's warm tube but is a great value.  Some people have had noisy ones that skew their perception.  There's nothing bad about the tube just make sure you find one in good shape.  They're easy enough to find NOS for under $50, sometimes under $30.  The best advice I can give about tubes from my three short years of being obsessed with them is that any tube can sound any way to anybody at any given time.  All you can do is try to make an informed buying decision based on general recommendations and at the end of the day trust your ears with your gears.  Don't be afraid to experiment, just make sure to use threads like this as a reference to make sure you don't get suckered into a fake or pay over-inflated prices.  One last thing... *With audio tubes, synergy between tubes in a system is absolutely key. * Got a warm power tube and maybe a warm-leaning headphone?  Balance that out with a brighter driver tube.  Got a headphone that has great transparency and detail but is light on grunt?  Grab a 5998 power tube and a midrange-focused (like Mullard) driver tube and enjoy the ride.


----------



## bcowen

Velozity said:


> The RCA is a good tube, don't let anyone tell you different, lol.  Seriously it's warm tube but is a great value.  Some people have had noisy ones that skew their perception.  There's nothing bad about the tube just make sure you find one in good shape.  They're easy enough to find NOS for under $50, sometimes under $30.  The best advice I can give about tubes from my three short years of being obsessed with them is that any tube can sound any way to anybody at any given time.  All you can do is try to make an informed buying decision based on general recommendations and at the end of the day trust your ears with your gears.  Don't be afraid to experiment, just make sure to use threads like this as a reference to make sure you don't get suckered into a fake or pay over-inflated prices.  One last thing... *With audio tubes, synergy between tubes in a system is absolutely key. * Got a warm power tube and maybe a warm-leaning headphone?  Balance that out with a brighter driver tube.  Got a headphone that has great transparency and detail but is light on grunt?  Grab a 5998 power tube and a midrange-focused (like Mullard) driver tube and enjoy the ride.


Very nicely stated.  And I couldn't agree more.


----------



## skhan007

Great insights, and very good education!

I'm searching out tubes for sale and thus far, I've found the following. All of which are very tempting and being considered:

GEC 6080 pair
Mullard 6080 pair
Chatham 6AS7G pair
Bendix slotted graphite 6080 single

I think the GEC and Bendix are among the most highly regarded by you guys, correct?


----------



## gibosi

skhan007 said:


> Great insights, and very good education!
> 
> I'm searching out tubes for sale and thus far, I've found the following. All of which are very tempting and being considered:
> 
> ...



As above, "synergy is key". So it depends on the rectifier and driver tubes. Any of these output tubes would be an excellent choice. But once it arrives, you need to spend some time trying different rectifiers (if your amp uses tube rectification) and drivers. I use all of these output tubes, and they are all great, but with different rectifiers and drivers.

Enjoy.


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> Great insights, and very good education!
> 
> I'm searching out tubes for sale and thus far, I've found the following. All of which are very tempting and being considered:
> 
> ...


None of those you list are slouches by any means. And as @gibosi noted, synergy with your amp and other tubes in use is more important than which of those are most favored.  Personally, I like the Chatham 6AS7G a lot when paired with a Foton or a pair of 7A4's, even though it's (usually) one of the least expensive in that group.  But paired with the "wrong" driver tube and its performance gets closer to 'meh' than stellar.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> None of those you list are slouches by any means. And as @gibosi noted, synergy with your amp and other tubes in use is more important than which of those are most favored.  Personally, I like the Chatham 6AS7G a lot when paired with a Foton or a pair of 7A4's, even though it's (usually) one of the least expensive in that group.  But paired with the "wrong" driver tube and its performance gets closer to 'meh' than stellar.


One more personal opinion!

I would start a bit lower down the stack from a quality perspective.  It will help you appreciate the differences.

I'd go with an order something like:

Winged C
Chatham 6as7g
Mullard 6080
5998
Bendix 6080
(This is not scientific or definitive as a list)

And spend a little time with each tube before upgrading.  That will also give you time to sample some different drivers in the same power tube.

In other words, start with a $12 bottle of wine and work your way up.  If you start with a $100 bottle you won't know what to look for.

Remind me, is this going in a BHC?


----------



## skhan007

Yes, into the BHC. Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. I can tell you that my stock tubes are OK. I'm trusting that when others tell me about the wider sound stage and fuller frequency response, I'll be able to detect those differences compared to the stock tubes. I should have some updates soon!!


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> One more personal opinion!
> 
> I would start a bit lower down the stack from a quality perspective.  It will help you appreciate the differences.
> 
> ...


Agree completely.  Well, almost completely.  The $12 bottle of wine?  Ugh.  That's like starting with a GE.  Life is too short to intentionally make yourself miserable.


----------



## HPAholic

maxpudding said:


> Oh and the slotted/non-slotted bendix/chatham 6080wb would sound good too 😄



Like these ...


----------



## Dogmatrix

Picked up this yesterday $25 , just got a message .
Надходження на сортувальний центр


----------



## JTbbb

PsilocybinCube said:


> One more personal opinion!
> 
> I would start a bit lower down the stack from a quality perspective.  It will help you appreciate the differences.
> 
> ...



Totally agree with this. But as always there is another side to the coin. The OP may wish to go straight to the best he can afford and not end up one year down the road looking at 100+ tubes in his closet 😀.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

JTbbb said:


> Totally agree with this. But as always there is another side to the coin. The OP may wish to go straight to the best he can afford and not end up one year down the road looking at 100+ tubes in his closet 😀.


But...I enjoy looking at all my tubes 

Plus, you can always give them away/sell them to the next sucker who enters this hobby!


----------



## skhan007

Hey, I've been using the search function (gives self a pat on the back!).

I've read about so many TOTL tubes and I've got a couple of follow up observations and questions:


Observation: I totally agree that synergy makes sense. I understand this from my playing as a musician and guitars, amps, tubes, speaker cabs, etc. all fall into this category. Matching is super important to optimize the best qualities of your gear. Luckily for me, the BHC has one preamp tube and one power tube, so permutations are fairly approachable. 
Question: I've read that the 6AS7G and 5998 are quite similar in OTL amps, although electrolytic properties are somewhat different. Correct? I was reading up on Tung Sol 5998 vs. Chatham 6AS7G, which both sound like real winners. 
Question: Is tube buying a global hobby? I'm very interested in the GEC 6080 and to get them shipped to the states from the UK or EU would incur premium fees for exchange, duties, PayPal fees, etc. Curious if you guys go this route or exercise patience in hopes of finding tubes like this domestically?


----------



## gibosi

skhan007 said:


> Hey, I've been using the search function (gives self a pat on the back!).
> 
> I've read about so many TOTL tubes and I've got a couple of follow up observations and questions:
> 
> ...



The 6AS7G and 5998 are similar, but not identical. And in fact, the correct biasing is different. Fortunately, even though 5998s are not biased properly in a 6AS7G amp, they still sound amazingly good. Also, until Tung-Sol purchased Chatham, they never manufactured the 6AS7G, 5998 and other similar output tubes. And after Tung-Sol purchased Chatham, these tubes continued to be manufactured in the same factory. So the only thing that changed was upper management. What I hope you will take away from this is that the only difference between a Chatham 5998 and a Tung-Sol 5998, is the date of manufacture, Chathams were earlier and Tung-Sol were later.

And yes, at least for me, tube buying is a "global hobby". If I want a rectifier manufactured in Poland, for example, the chances of finding one here in the US is tiny. And just this week, I received some British GEC tubes from a vendor in Germany and a German Telefunken tube from a vendor in Belgium. No problems. 

Regarding shipping from Europe...  It seems to me that since the pandemic, some European vendors have increased shipping prices significantly. And there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason. For example one German vendor might charge $10 and the next might charge $40. So when I bid, I factor the cost of shipping into my offer. If my budget is $150, and shipping is $40, I bid $110. Because of this, of course, there are auctions I don't win. But I figure that if I am patient, and I emphasize the word "patient", the same tube will pop up again, and maybe the shipping cost will be more affordable, I hope.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> The 6AS7G and 5998 are similar, but not identical. And in fact, the correct biasing is different. Fortunately, even though 5998s are not biased properly in a 6AS7G amp, they still sound amazingly good. Also, until Tung-Sol purchased Chatham, they never manufactured the 6AS7G, 5998 and other similar output tubes. And after Tung-Sol purchased Chatham, these tubes continued to be manufactured in the same factory. So the only thing that changed was upper management. What I hope you will take away from this is that the only difference between a Chatham 5998 and a Tung-Sol 5998, is the date of manufacture, Chathams were earlier and Tung-Sol were later.
> 
> And yes, at least for me, tube buying is a "global hobby". If I want a rectifier manufactured in Poland, for example, the chances of finding one here in the US is tiny. And just this week, I received some British GEC tubes from a vendor in Germany and a German Telefunken tube from a vendor in Belgium. No problems.
> 
> Regarding shipping from Europe...  It seems to me that since the pandemic, some European vendors have increased shipping prices significantly. And there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason. For example one German vendor might charge $10 and the next might charge $40. So when I bid, I factor the cost of shipping into my offer. If my budget is $150, and shipping is $40, I bid $110. Because of this, of course, there are auctions I don't win. But I figure that if I am patient, and I emphasize the word "patient", the same tube will pop up again, and maybe the shipping cost will be more affordable, I hope.


I'll second this.

My wife often will bring a box back to the office which you can tell obviously traveled halfway across the world and has odd Eastern European addresses on it. 

I don't find that the premiums are outrageous for buying overseas.  If anything, when you are buying from former soviet countries, you can get amazing tubes at cheap prices.  You might wait a few weeks, but it's worth it.  Once you get into the hobby properly a new box shows up everyday so there is always something new to try.  Then your spouse gets upset and you slow down...

The crazy thing is, these things are largely going up in value.  So...it's an _investment_???


----------



## PsilocybinCube

skhan007 said:


> Hey, I've been using the search function (gives self a pat on the back!).
> 
> I've read about so many TOTL tubes and I've got a couple of follow up observations and questions:
> 
> ...


The 5998 is louder (in a literal sense of needing to adjust the volume) and pushes the sonic envelope further.  It accentuates the characteristics of everything else you are using IMO.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> The 6AS7G and 5998 are similar, but not identical. And in fact, the correct biasing is different. Fortunately, even though 5998s are not biased properly in a 6AS7G amp, they still sound amazingly good. Also, until Tung-Sol purchased Chatham, they never manufactured the 6AS7G, 5998 and other similar output tubes. And after Tung-Sol purchased Chatham, these tubes continued to be manufactured in the same factory. So the only thing that changed was upper management. What I hope you will take away from this is that the only difference between a Chatham 5998 and a Tung-Sol 5998, is the date of manufacture, Chathams were earlier and Tung-Sol were later.
> 
> And yes, at least for me, tube buying is a "global hobby". If I want a rectifier manufactured in Poland, for example, the chances of finding one here in the US is tiny. And just this week, I received some British GEC tubes from a vendor in Germany and a German Telefunken tube from a vendor in Belgium. No problems.
> 
> Regarding shipping from Europe...  It seems to me that since the pandemic, some European vendors have increased shipping prices significantly. And there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason. For example one German vendor might charge $10 and the next might charge $40. So when I bid, I factor the cost of shipping into my offer. If my budget is $150, and shipping is $40, I bid $110. Because of this, of course, there are auctions I don't win. But I figure that if I am patient, and I emphasize the word "patient", the same tube will pop up again, and maybe the shipping cost will be more affordable, I hope.


It is improper (and perhaps illegal in some jurisdictions) to use the word "patient" in an audio forum.   Just sayin'.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> It is improper (and perhaps illegal in some jurisdictions) to use the word "patient" in an audio forum.   Just sayin'.


Unless preceded by the word "mental".


----------



## skhan007

Can you guys help me to interpret some tube testing values? I have a WTB ad for some Svetlana CH13C tubes and a matched pair has been offered to me. The photo shows some handwritten testing values, which I'll list below. The handwriting isn't great and these values were provided by the original owner, not the current seller. These are two CH13C tubes with an OTK77 mark (don't know what that means and I've tried searching). 

Values:

Tube 1 - Va1 = 96 ma, Va2= 72 ma
              s1= 5.6 ma/v, s2 =5.25 ma/v

Tube 2 - Va1 = 88 ma, Va2= 80 ma
              s1= 5.75 ma/v, s2 = 5.5 ma/v

The "V" in Va1 and Va2 looks like a "J" but what do I know. 

If anyone has any insights, I'm very interested and thanks in advance. Much appreciated, as always.


----------



## Dogmatrix

skhan007 said:


> Can you guys help me to interpret some tube testing values? I have a WTB ad for some Svetlana CH13C tubes and a matched pair has been offered to me. The photo shows some handwritten testing values, which I'll list below. The handwriting isn't great and these values were provided by the original owner, not the current seller. These are two CH13C tubes with an OTK77 mark (don't know what that means and I've tried searching).
> 
> Values:
> 
> ...


I generally take things like this as a rough indicator of a tube function , I have a single output tube amp so I look for 1 and 2 to be reasonably close . Other than that not much can be read into these numbers , too much depends on the type and condition of the machine used for testing .
OTK77 just means it was quality control checked by comrade 77 so if it is bad they know who to send to , well you know .


----------



## skhan007 (Apr 3, 2021)

Dogmatrix said:


> I generally take things like this as a rough indicator of a tube function , I have a single output tube amp so I look for 1 and 2 to be reasonably close . Other than that not much can be read into these numbers , too much depends on the type and condition of the machine used for testing .
> OTK77 just means it was quality control checked by comrade 77 so if it is bad they know who to send to , well you know .


Thanks- this info is appreciated.

I have a lead on some NOS Chatham 6as7g and a Bendix 6080. Am I correct to conclude that these may offer me more than the Svetlana 6h13c?


----------



## Dogmatrix

skhan007 said:


> Thanks- this info is appreciated.
> 
> I have a lead on some NOS Chatham 6as7g and a Bendix 6080. Am I correct to conclude that these may offer me more than the Svetlana 6h13c?


If only it was a simple matter of more or less you could just hunt down a nice GEC and walk away . But alas it is not , some tubes do different things better than others and you will never know unless you try them all . 
Having said that the massive stock of Svetlana tubes does not look in danger of running out any time soon and prices are rising on Chatham and Bendix .
Looking back through the thread to get an idea of relative scarcity will help in the hunt .
I think it is more scarcity that makes some tubes seem more desirable in forums like this sometimes , there are some really great tubes that rarely get a mention because everyone has already got some .
I really like the pre 60's RCA joint army navy or JAN 6080 in my amp but they are rarely spoken about because finding one is no big deal .
Much fun and satisfaction is to be had in the hunt , I found a very nice NOS Mullard 6080 very cheap last month because being the military version it had no logo and the seller did not recognise it . Same seller was selling two mid 70's Mullards with logos and made in England for more than double for each tube .


----------



## skhan007

Quick update on first tube rolling purchase for my recently acquired Bottlehead Crack Speedball. Based on suggestions on this thread and the BHC thread, I've purchased a matched pair (even though I only need one) of Chatham 6AS7G and a single Bendix 6080WB. All are testing NOS and the seller placed the (I think) percentage values of each triode on stickers. 

I've been swapping them in and did some A/B/C testing vs. the stock Philips 6080. It's clear that the new tubes are far better than stock. Between the Bendix and Chatham, I'm trying to listen carefully to hear differences between them. I don't know that I'm good with the poetic HiFi lingo, but both are very pronounced and extended in the bass and lower bass frequencies. I'm not sure, but I think the Bendix has a wider soundstage/separation of individual instruments. 

I've got listen more and maybe take notes because they both sound great, but not too far apart from one another. Curious if others have owned Chatham 6AS7G and Bendix 6080WB could confirm their experiences. I'll use the search function, as well. Pics:


----------



## PsilocybinCube

skhan007 said:


> Quick update on first tube rolling purchase for my recently acquired Bottlehead Crack Speedball. Based on suggestions on this thread and the BHC thread, I've purchased a matched pair (even though I only need one) of Chatham 6AS7G and a single Bendix 6080WB. All are testing NOS and the seller placed the (I think) percentage values of each triode on stickers.
> 
> I've been swapping them in and did some A/B/C testing vs. the stock Philips 6080. It's clear that the new tubes are far better than stock. Between the Bendix and Chatham, I'm trying to listen carefully to hear differences between them. I don't know that I'm good with the poetic HiFi lingo, but both are very pronounced and extended in the bass and lower bass frequencies. I'm not sure, but I think the Bendix has a wider soundstage/separation of individual instruments.
> 
> I've got listen more and maybe take notes because they both sound great, but not too far apart from one another. Curious if others have owned Chatham 6AS7G and Bendix 6080WB could confirm their experiences. I'll use the search function, as well. Pics:


Wow.  Nice tubes.  And great initial picks.

I'm currently on a kick with the Chatham 6as7g.  I've never liked it that much, but with the ZMF Verite, I'm really liking it.  

Regarding the Bendix 6080, that might be my favorite tube to ever use in the BHC (until my tube failed...but I bought it knowing it had a cracked plate).

I personally like a warm driver to pair with the Chatham due its kind of airy nature.  I never settled on a driver combo with the Bendix, everything seemed to sound great with it.  A Melz 6sn7 I bought from @Paladin79 was probably my favorite.

You have already done this, but do clean those pins.  Lots of rolling dirty pins will catch up with you.  I like the vacuum tube survival kit:

https://www.amazon.com/DeoxIT®-Gold-Vacuum-Survival-Caig/dp/B00E1QZ91Y

There are lots of sellers of this, Amazon was just the first result in google.  I usually try to find it for $35.

Once you've cleaned all the pins on all your tubes, you can feel secure rolling in and out and trying new things!  You'll want to clean your sockets, too.  Remember to unplug for the amp for that, of course.

Remind me, what headphones, DAC, and driver tube are you using?

At any rate - again - nice tubes.  Enjoy!


----------



## skhan007

PsilocybinCube said:


> Wow.  Nice tubes.  And great initial picks.
> 
> I'm currently on a kick with the Chatham 6as7g.  I've never liked it that much, but with the ZMF Verite, I'm really liking it.
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for the tip on the tube cleaning supplies. Rookie question- Can one simply use small sized pipe cleaner brushes and rubbing alcohol on the pins? I think the pins on the Bendix could use a cleaning. 

My set up: ZMF Auteur, RME ADI-2 DAC, BHC Speedball with clear top RCA 12AU7, and test driving these power tubes.


----------



## hp4fun

skhan007 said:


> Hey, thanks for the tip on the tube cleaning supplies. Rookie question- Can one simply use small sized pipe cleaner brushes and rubbing alcohol on the pins? I think the pins on the Bendix could use a cleaning.
> 
> My set up: ZMF Auteur, RME ADI-2 DAC, BHC Speedball with clear top RCA 12AU7, and test driving these power tubes.



I used Brasso. Much cheaper.


----------



## gibosi

skhan007 said:


> Hey, thanks for the tip on the tube cleaning supplies. Rookie question- Can one simply use small sized pipe cleaner brushes and rubbing alcohol on the pins? I think the pins on the Bendix could use a cleaning.
> 
> My set up: ZMF Auteur, RME ADI-2 DAC, BHC Speedball with clear top RCA 12AU7, and test driving these power tubes.



And I use 220 grit sandpaper and nothing else.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

skhan007 said:


> Hey, thanks for the tip on the tube cleaning supplies. Rookie question- Can one simply use small sized pipe cleaner brushes and rubbing alcohol on the pins? I think the pins on the Bendix could use a cleaning.
> 
> My set up: ZMF Auteur, RME ADI-2 DAC, BHC Speedball with clear top RCA 12AU7, and test driving these power tube



That's a great setup you have.  I really want to try the Auteur.  I have the VO and Eikon running off my BHC right now. 

What are your impressions of the sound from the RME vs. the BHC???


----------



## PsilocybinCube

skhan007 said:


> Hey, thanks for the tip on the tube cleaning supplies. Rookie question- Can one simply use small sized pipe cleaner brushes and rubbing alcohol on the pins? I think the pins on the Bendix could use a cleaning.
> 
> My set up: ZMF Auteur, RME ADI-2 DAC, BHC Speedball with clear top RCA 12AU7, and test driving these power tube



That's a great setup you have.  I really want to try the Auteur.  I have the VO and Eikon running off my BHC right now.  I'm even using a 12au7 in honor of @DenverW 

What are your impressions of the sound from the RME vs. the BHC???


----------



## skhan007

PsilocybinCube said:


> That's a great setup you have.  I really want to try the Auteur.  I have the VO and Eikon running off my BHC right now.  I'm even using a 12au7 in honor of @DenverW
> 
> What are your impressions of the sound from the RME vs. the BHC???


The grass is always greener on the other side- I really like YOUR set up with the ZMF VO and the gorgeous lacewood BHC. 

The RME sounds great with the ZMF directly. With the BHC, it sounds "fuller" which I suppose means more extension in the lower frequency ranges.


----------



## attmci

skhan007 said:


> Hey, thanks for the tip on the tube cleaning supplies. Rookie question- Can one simply use small sized pipe cleaner brushes and rubbing alcohol on the pins? I think the pins on the Bendix could use a cleaning.
> 
> My set up: ZMF Auteur, RME ADI-2 DAC, BHC Speedball with clear top RCA 12AU7, and test driving these power tubes.


Do you want to try a 7316 as driver tube?


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> Hey, thanks for the tip on the tube cleaning supplies. Rookie question- Can one simply use small sized pipe cleaner brushes and rubbing alcohol on the pins? I think the pins on the Bendix could use a cleaning.


Simple answer: yes.  Except don't use rubbing alcohol.  It has lanolin and other skin conditioners in it that will leave a residue. Use plain isopropyl alcohol.  Lots of ways to clean tube pins as others have mentioned, but the alcohol and pipe cleaner will get the majority of the loose crud/dirt/oil off of them.  Go further if you wish....there's no such thing as tube pins that are_ too_ clean.   Don't forget to clean the amp's sockets occasionally too (obviously with it turned off and preferably unplugged from the wall outlet, and let to sit for 10-15 minutes first to be sure the capacitors are discharged).


----------



## skhan007

attmci said:


> Do you want to try a 7316 as driver tube?


I'd love to. Are you referring to the Amperex? I'm a big fan, as I use Amperex 12AX7 drivers in my guitar amps. I even have a Bugle Boy t-shirt!

I don't really have much experience with 12AU7 type tubes, as I've only tried my stock GE (meh), a vintage Philco (not a good match), and the current RCA clear tops (very nice sounding).


----------



## skhan007

Quick question: I’m hearing a very slight hum from my Bendix 6080. It’s only audible when there’s no music playing and it’s definitely this tube, as I swapped in three other power tubes with no humming detected. The tube sounds great otherwise, with no audible hum while music is playing.

Not sure if this is simply an artifact of an old tube or indicative of a problem. I have a the option to keep it and live with it (pretty minor issue right now) or return it to the seller. Being a tube rolling novice, I’m curious what you guys would do?


----------



## maxpudding

skhan007 said:


> Quick question: I’m hearing a very slight hum from my Bendix 6080. It’s only audible when there’s no music playing and it’s definitely this tube, as I swapped in three other power tubes with no humming detected. The tube sounds great otherwise, with no audible hum while music is playing.
> 
> Not sure if this is simply an artifact of an old tube or indicative of a problem. I have a the option to keep it and live with it (pretty minor issue right now) or return it to the seller. Being a tube rolling novice, I’m curious what you guys would do?



Try cleaning the pins if you haven’t done that. Most probably it’s due to the dirty pin.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Wow.  Nice tubes.  And great initial picks.
> 
> I'm currently on a kick with the Chatham 6as7g.  I've never liked it that much, but with the ZMF Verite, I'm really liking it.
> 
> ...


This morning I am listening to a 1958 Melz 1578 and should soon have a 1961. The 63 is such a good year that I wanted to hear more of the forerunners. I have variations back to 1954. Today I am pairing some with a Cetron 7236 but I will also swap in a Tung Sol 5998 and Chatham bottom getter 6as7G. I am doing final testing on a couple of my Incubus amps and I always like to hear them with a variety of tubes.


----------



## skhan007 (Apr 9, 2021)

I'm hoping to tap into the collective knowledge as I'm just starting my tube rolling rabbit hole journey:

I'm reading that soundstage has more to do with the type of headphones (open/closed), driver type (planar, dynamic, etc.), placement and angle of said drivers, and accuracy/quality of the recording. Then, I'm reading that some say the power tube can produce sound stage qualities, "holographic" effect, and separation. I guess I'm a bit confused, as articles and sources state the desired separation and sound stage dynamics are about the cans. Do tubes really do this as well, and if so, how?

I am hearing definite eq differences in my limited number of power tubes. Perhaps wider frequency response equates to perception of sound stage in tubes?


----------



## Odin412

skhan007 said:


> I'm hoping to tap into the collective knowledge as I'm just starting my tube rolling rabbit hole journey:
> 
> I'm reading that soundstage has more to do with the type of headphones (open/closed), driver type (planar, dynamic, etc.), placement and angle of said drivers, and accuracy/quality of the recording. Then, I'm reading that some say the power tube can produce sound stage qualities, "holographic" effect, and separation. I guess I'm a bit confused, as articles and sources state the desired separation and sound stage dynamics are about the cans. Do tubes really do this as well, and if so, how?
> 
> I am hearing definite eq differences in my limited number of power tubes. Perhaps wider frequency response equates to perception of sound stage in tubes?



I'm not sure what the physical/electrical reason is but I definitely hear some tubes sounding more spacious than others.

Nelson Pass once said that in his listening tests there was a tendency to interpret negative phase 2nd harmonic distortion as giving a _deeper soundstage _and _improved localization_, so maybe some tubes have more of this particular distortion than others?


----------



## skhan007

Ah, that makes sense. Second order harmonics/distortion is indeed musical and complementary, which I can see being described in poetic terms, such as holographic, etc. I suppose the specific tube, amp, mA current, will influence the tube's behavior and ultimately predict if it distorts.


----------



## attmci

skhan007 said:


> I'm hoping to tap into the collective knowledge as I'm just starting my tube rolling rabbit hole journey:
> 
> I'm reading that soundstage has more to do with the type of headphones (open/closed), driver type (planar, dynamic, etc.), placement and angle of said drivers, and accuracy/quality of the recording. Then, I'm reading that some say the power tube can produce sound stage qualities, "holographic" effect, and separation. I guess I'm a bit confused, as articles and sources state the desired separation and sound stage dynamics are about the cans. Do tubes really do this as well, and if so, how?
> 
> I am hearing definite eq differences in my limited number of power tubes. Perhaps wider frequency response equates to perception of sound stage in tubes?


Tube rolling won't make your VC/LCD-4 sounds like a  AB 1266.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

attmci said:


> Tube rolling won't make your VC/LCD-4 sounds like a  AB 1266.



I understood the 1266 is industrial-sounding. If anything good tubes could get the 1266 to sound more like a ZMF?


----------



## skhan007 (Apr 11, 2021)

In my search for some GEC 6080 tubes, I was able to find a pair for sale. The would be shipped from the UK to the US, and I've never made an overseas purchase before and was hoping for some guidance.

Edit: Tubes test NOS with only a few hours on them. 

Without import fees, I think I'm at about $275 (tubes, shipping, and PayPal fees). I'm not sure if I'm calculating import fees correctly, as I've found some on-line cost calculators and I'm uncertain if they are accurate, but I think it's another $30 or so.

Is $300 too pricey for a pair of GEC 6080 tubes? My instincts say this is too much, but I'm really not sure, as I'm still pretty new to the tube rolling process. Any input is appreciated. I'll also ask this question on the Bottlehead thread, where other owners may chime in.


----------



## Galapac

skhan007 said:


> In my search for some GEC 6080 tubes, I was able to find a pair for sale. The would be shipped from the UK to the US, and I've never made an overseas purchase before and was hoping for some guidance.
> 
> Without import fees, I think I'm at about $275 (tubes, shipping, and PayPal fees). I'm not sure if I'm calculating import fees correctly, as I've found some on-line cost calculators and I'm uncertain if they are accurate, but I think it's another $30 or so.
> 
> Is $300 too pricey for a pair of GEC 6080 tubes? My instincts say this is too much, but I'm really not sure, as I'm still pretty new to the tube rolling process. Any input is appreciated. I'll also ask this question on the Bottlehead thread, where other owners may chime in.


I think $300 is about in line and maybe a good deal from what I have seen on GEC 6080s but condition of the tubes are unknown as it wasn’t mentioned and is important when considering high priced tubes.


----------



## skhan007

Galapac said:


> I think $300 is about in line and maybe a good deal from what I have seen on GEC 6080s but condition of the tubes are unknown as it wasn’t mentioned and is important when considering high priced tubes.


Yes, sorry! Condition is near NOS with only a few hours on them.


----------



## Galapac

Others can chime in but sounds like a good deal to me for GEC 6080.


----------



## maxpudding

CaptainFantastic said:


> *I understood the 1266 is industrial-sounding.* If anything good tubes could get the 1266 to sound more like a ZMF?



Yeah, different flavour than the ZMF.


----------



## gibosi

skhan007 said:


> Without import fees, I think I'm at about $275 (tubes, shipping, and PayPal fees). I'm not sure if I'm calculating import fees correctly, as I've found some on-line cost calculators and I'm uncertain if they are accurate, but I think it's another $30 or so.



Living in the US and purchasing tubes from from the UK, I have never had to pay import fees. So your cost will be the tubes, shipping plus state sales tax if Virgina has such a thing. Also, I believe that the vendor pays PayPal fees.


----------



## hp4fun

skhan007 said:


> Yes, sorry! Condition is near NOS with only a few hours on them.


300 for a pair sounds great to me.

One caveat: sometimes nos tubes do not necessarily mean good test readings. Did the seller test them?


----------



## skhan007

gibosi said:


> Living in the US and purchasing tubes from from the UK, I have never had to pay import fees. So your cost will be the tubes, shipping plus state sales tax if Virgina has such a thing. Also, I believe that the vendor pays PayPal fees.


In this case, the seller is an individual that has asked me to cover the PayPal fee. That is great to know that I may not have to pay import duties. Curious how my state’s sales tax will be added to


hp4fun said:


> 300 for a pair sounds great to me.
> 
> One caveat: sometimes nos tubes do not necessarily mean good test readings. Did the seller test them?



I believe they were purchased from an owner who bought them NOS. They have about 25 hours on them and original testing scores are on each box. I trust the seller, as he’s a fellow member and has been immensely helpful.


----------



## Galapac

skhan007 said:


> In this case, the seller is an individual that has asked me to cover the PayPal fee. That is great to know that I may not have to pay import duties. Curious how my state’s sales tax will be added to
> 
> 
> I believe they were purchased from an owner who bought them NOS. They have about 25 hours on them and original testing scores are on each box. I trust the seller, as he’s a fellow member and has been immensely helpful.


I’d say go for it, I recently purchased a pair for $350. Plus if you don’t like them, which is highly unlikely, they are an easy sell. 
If you don’t like them, contact me. 🤣


----------



## LoryWiv

Galapac said:


> Others can chime in but sounds like a good deal to me for GEC 6080.


Agree, I paid more!


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> In this case, the seller is an individual that has asked me to cover the PayPal fee. That is great to know that I may not have to pay import duties. Curious how my state’s sales tax will be added to
> 
> 
> I believe they were purchased from an owner who bought them NOS. They have about 25 hours on them and original testing scores are on each box. I trust the seller, as he’s a fellow member and has been immensely helpful.


If this is just a private transaction between you and the seller (ie: not going through Ebay or other auction/commercial type site), there should not be any taxes involved.  As well, you can avoid the PayPal fees by using the "Friends and Family" option.  You lose all PayPal buyer protection mechanisms by doing that, but if the seller is someone you already know and trust, there's always that option.  Depends on your level of confidence and faith with who you're buying from, and if a problem occurs that the person will do what's right to resolve things.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 11, 2021)

In other words...

NEVER buy from  @bcowen and send money via PayPal using the 'Friends and Family' option. 😉



(J/K). The guy has always done right by me and as much as it pains me to say, is an honest and trustworthy individual, despite his curmudgeony disposition.  😄


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> In other words...
> 
> NEVER buy from  @bcowen and send money via PayPal using the 'Friends and Family' option. 😉
> 
> ...


LOL!  Yes, with me you should always use the "Enemies and In-Laws" option.  It triples the fee, but PayPal will likely refund your money even if you never contact them about a problem.


----------



## skhan007

Excellent- Thank you all for the feedback thus far. I know that these are hard to find tubes and a few have commented (here and on the Bottlehead thread) that they are among the best of the 6080 and yet others have stated they are nothing special above others (for example, I have a Bendix 6080, which I've read may equivocal). I did quite a bit of reading using the search function and noting many experiences dating back over many years. Mixed feedback on the GEC, but I think most consider them the pinnacle of their category. 

Also, I'm buying a matched pair, which I know is a premium (even though I only need one for my amp). I suppose buying a matched pair is nice to have a backup on-hand or I could simply sell one maybe. Not sure if having matched pair means it's best to keep them together.


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> Excellent- Thank you all for the feedback thus far. I know that these are hard to find tubes and a few have commented (here and on the Bottlehead thread) that they are among the best of the 6080 and yet others have stated they are nothing special above others (for example, I have a Bendix 6080, which I've read may equivocal). I did quite a bit of reading using the search function and noting many experiences dating back over many years. Mixed feedback on the GEC, but I think most consider them the pinnacle of their category.
> 
> Also, I'm buying a matched pair, which I know is a premium (even though I only need one for my amp). I suppose buying a matched pair is nice to have a backup on-hand or I could simply sell one maybe. Not sure if having matched pair means it's best to keep them together.


Some amps use 2 tubes (one per channel), so buying a matched pair in that situation is preferable to trying to find singles that have similar output or emission.  If you really like the sound once you get them, I'd definitely keep the other as a backup (if it were me).


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> I'd definitely keep the other as a backup (if it were me).



You and your anxiety 

...actually that makes two of us lol


----------



## Ripper2860

What a waste.  Just upgrade your amp to use the matched pair as intended.


----------



## maxpudding

skhan007 said:


> Excellent- Thank you all for the feedback thus far. I know that these are hard to find tubes and a few have commented (here and on the Bottlehead thread) that they are among the best of the 6080 and yet others have stated they are nothing special above others (for example, I have a Bendix 6080, which I've read may equivocal). I did quite a bit of reading using the search function and noting many experiences dating back over many years. Mixed feedback on the GEC, but I think most consider them the pinnacle of their category.
> 
> Also, I'm buying a matched pair, which I know is a premium (even though I only need one for my amp). I suppose buying a matched pair is nice to have a backup on-hand or I could simply sell one maybe. Not sure if having matched pair means it's best to keep them together.



Keep them, if one day you decided to upgrade to an amp that uses at least a pair of 6as7/6080 type of power tubes, you'll thank your past self.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> What a waste.  Just upgrade your amp to use the matched pair as intended.


This is known as Texas logic:  if in doubt, make it bigger.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

skhan007 said:


> In my search for some GEC 6080 tubes, I was able to find a pair for sale. The would be shipped from the UK to the US, and I've never made an overseas purchase before and was hoping for some guidance.
> 
> Edit: Tubes test NOS with only a few hours on them.
> 
> ...


I believe you sent a similar message on the Crack thread and said that you own the Bendix 6080 and Chatham 6AS7 which you love. The GEC 6080 will be more similar to the Chatham 6AS7 in terms of tone, perhaps a bit warmer and more 'musical'. I find them not quite as impactful and detailed as the Bendix, but they more than make up for it with their great tone- a different sound profile. If you really enjoy the Chatham 6AS7, I would strongly recommend trying to find a Tung Sol 5998; a pair can be had for a similar price to the GEC 6080 you have found, or often come in singles these days. I find the TS 5998 to work very well in the Crack


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> This is known as Texas logic:  if in doubt, make it bigger.


Or get a second identical amp: (i) to use the second tube; (ii) as backup 🥲.....


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> This is known as Texas logic:  if in doubt, make it bigger.


Good advice provided that ERCOT does not jinx the power grid.


----------



## skhan007

tintinsnowydog said:


> I believe you sent a similar message on the Crack thread and said that you own the Bendix 6080 and Chatham 6AS7 which you love. The GEC 6080 will be more similar to the Chatham 6AS7 in terms of tone, perhaps a bit warmer and more 'musical'. I find them not quite as impactful and detailed as the Bendix, but they more than make up for it with their great tone- a different sound profile. If you really enjoy the Chatham 6AS7, I would strongly recommend trying to find a Tung Sol 5998; a pair can be had for a similar price to the GEC 6080 you have found, or often come in singles these days. I find the TS 5998 to work very well in the Crack


Thanks! Yes indeed, I did inquire with the BHC owners as well. My issue as a new guy just getting into tube rolling, is that there are too many great choices and I don't really know how much better things will be compared to what I've already got. For example, I really like my Chatham 6AS7G and don't know if the GEC will be only slightly better or slightly different and if so, is that justified (to me of course) in spending $300 +. I know only me and my ears can answer that and part of me just says to hit the brakes and enjoy the Chatham and Bendix that I've got and maybe not be so gung-ho to accumulate so much, so fast. The enthusiastic crowd on HeadFi inspires me, but I should also likely exercise some restraint! Others have also recommended the 5998, so perhaps I should keep my eyes open for one.


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> Thanks! Yes indeed, I did inquire with the BHC owners as well. My issue as a new guy just getting into tube rolling, is that there are too many great choices and I don't really know how much better things will be compared to what I've already got. For example, I really like my Chatham 6AS7G and don't know if the GEC will be only slightly better or slightly different and if so, is that justified (to me of course) in spending $300 +. I know only me and my ears can answer that and part of me just says to hit the brakes and enjoy the Chatham and Bendix that I've got and maybe not be so gung-ho to accumulate so much, so fast. The enthusiastic crowd on HeadFi inspires me, but I should also likely exercise some restraint! Others have also recommended the 5998, so perhaps I should keep my eyes open for one.



I have not heard a GEC 6080 so can't comment on the sound, but I'll heartily second @tintinsnowydog 's recommendation on the Tung Sol 5998.  If you enjoy the Chatham 6AS7G, you'll love the TS 5998.  IMO, of course.


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> I have not heard a GEC 6080 so can't comment on the sound, but I'll heartily second @tintinsnowydog 's recommendation on the Tung Sol 5998.  If you enjoy the Chatham 6AS7G, you'll love the TS 5998.  IMO, of course.



Mr bcowen,

You haven’t heard a GEC 6080! I thought you owned all the tubes under the sun 😄


----------



## JTbbb

skhan007 said:


> Thanks! Yes indeed, I did inquire with the BHC owners as well. My issue as a new guy just getting into tube rolling, is that there are too many great choices and I don't really know how much better things will be compared to what I've already got. For example, I really like my Chatham 6AS7G and don't know if the GEC will be only slightly better or slightly different and if so, is that justified (to me of course) in spending $300 +. I know only me and my ears can answer that and part of me just says to hit the brakes and enjoy the Chatham and Bendix that I've got and maybe not be so gung-ho to accumulate so much, so fast. The enthusiastic crowd on HeadFi inspires me, but I should also likely exercise some restraint! Others have also recommended the 5998, so perhaps I should keep my eyes open for one.



It can soon be one heck of a rabbit hole!

From the fella who has the GEC’s


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 12, 2021)

> Mr bcowen,
> 
> You haven’t heard a GEC 6080! I thought you owned all the tubes under the sun 😄



He never said he didn't own one.  Given the size of his tube stash, it would be highly unlikely that he recalls every tube purchased


----------



## Louisiana

*6AS7G Telefunken




*


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> He never said he didn't own one.  Given the size of his tube stash, it would be highly unlikely that he recalls every tube purchased


Let alone the time involved looking for the GEC 6080 in that vast tube ocean which has engulfed the bcowen abode....


----------



## Ripper2860

Louisiana said:


> *6AS7G Telefunken
> 
> *



I do not believe TF actually made a 6AS7G.  That looks like a Svetlana  made re-badge.


----------



## Louisiana

Ripper2860 said:


> I do not believe TF actually made a 6AS7G.  That looks like a Svetlana  made re-badge.


Ok.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 12, 2021)

The Svetlana Russian tube has the bottom silver getter material along the bottom and has 2 'flying saucer' getter holders -- one on each side.  Euro MFGs buying and re-labeling was pretty prevalent in that era.  I have a Sylvania 6AS7G made in Germany that is identical to the Russian Svetlana.  A tip off of a Russian tube is the 'flying saucer' getter holders.  Only Russian mfgs used them.  Don't get me wrong, they are good tubes, but you likely paid more than $20 for the TF branded one.


----------



## gibosi

Louisiana said:


> Ok.



In your picture, notice the circular disk near the bottom. This is a getter holder and in Russian tubes, it looks like a flying saucer. A dead give-away.


----------



## Louisiana

Ripper2860 said:


> The Svetlana Russian tube has the bottom silver getter material along the bottom and has 2 'flying saucer' getter holders -- one on each side.  Euro MFGs buying and re-labeling was pretty prevalent in that era.  I have a Sylvania 6AS7G made in Germany that is identical to the Russian Svetlana.  A tip off of a Russian tube is the 'flying saucer' getter holders.  Only Russian mfgs used them.  Don't get me wrong, they are good tubes, but you likely paid more than $20 for the TF branded one.


Thanks for the information.
I don't know anything about tubes, the Dark Voice is my first Tube Amp - but that's why I'm here, to learn something.  
Converted into dollars, I paid $ 60 for the Tube...


----------



## gibosi

Louisiana said:


> Thanks for the information.
> I don't know anything about tubes, the Dark Voice is my first Tube Amp - but that's why I'm here, to learn something.
> Converted into dollars, I paid $ 60 for the Tube...



It's not a bad tube, so enjoy it. But you could have bought it for much less if it is branded Svetlana.


----------



## Paladin79

I just received some winged C’s with original boxes and paperwork. Most are from 1958 and 1959. I buy a lot of these but boxes seem a rarity.😺


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Apr 12, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> The Svetlana Russian tube has the bottom silver getter material along the bottom and has 2 'flying saucer' getter holders -- one on each side.  Euro MFGs buying and re-labeling was pretty prevalent in that era.  I have a Sylvania 6AS7G made in Germany that is identical to the Russian Svetlana.  A tip off of a Russian tube is the 'flying saucer' getter holders.  Only Russian mfgs used them.  Don't get me wrong, they are good tubes, but you likely paid more than $20 for the TF branded one.


FWIW, people pay a lot for labels in all parts of society.  The 6h13c is a great tube and paying a bit more for a Telefunken is totally worth it for the cool factor.


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> FWIW, people pay a lot of labels in all parts of society.  The 6h13c is a great tube and paying a bit more for a Telefunken is totally worth it for the cool factor.


Paying more for Telefunken that were used in U boat transmitters, 1942 vintage, can add a cool factor as well but they are different power tubes, I have some in a personal amp I designed.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 12, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> The Svetlana Russian tube has the bottom silver getter material along the bottom and has 2 'flying saucer' getter holders -- one on each side.  Euro MFGs buying and re-labeling was pretty prevalent in that era.  I have a Sylvania 6AS7G made in Germany that is identical to the Russian Svetlana.  A tip off of a Russian tube is the 'flying saucer' getter holders.  Only Russian mfgs used them.  Don't get me wrong, they are good tubes, but you likely paid more than $20 for the TF branded one.


If I may make a slight correction, newer Svetlana's have the flying saucer getter holder. Fifties versions have a square holder with a small circle on top, like the 58's and 59's I just received.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 12, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> FWIW, people pay a lot for labels in all parts of society.  The 6h13c is a great tube and paying a bit more for a Telefunken is totally worth it for the cool factor.


I agree.  The coolness factor is certainly worth more, if that was the intent.  If not then it is certainly an unintended benefit!


----------



## Ripper2860

Paladin79 said:


> If I may make a slight correction, newer Svetlana's have the flying saucer getter holder. Fifties versions have a square holder with a small circle on top, like the 58's and 59's I just received.


Yep.  I forgot about the 'Pill-Pack' (tm pending) getter holder.  I have both, but the flying saucer seems to be the most prevalent.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  I forgot about the 'Pill-Pack' (tm pending) getter holder.  I have both, but the flying saucer seems to be the most prevalent.


They are more common yes, I only buy the fifties versions now for myself and send the newer ones with amps. I have yet to find a bottom getter RCA tube that matches up exactly to the Svetlanas, the Svetlana glass is a bit taller and RCA used a whole different single getter holder on my examples.


----------



## Ripper2860

Oooops.  The only 'pill-pack' one I have came with Incubus.


----------



## Paladin79 (Apr 12, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Oooops.  The only 'pill-pack' one I have came with Incubus.


I tried to give you a nice one lol, date code is generally to the right of the logo and the older style used large logos with the tube number on the inside of the "C".

I probably have 25 of them from the 50's and every once in a while I run out of 86's and such. My military versions are 6H5C and my Russian contacts say they are more desirable but I cannot hear much difference.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Paladin79 said:


> My military versions are 6H5C and my Russian contacts say they are more desirable but I cannot hear much difference.



I hear that Putin listens with ufo getters (from a real ufo), gold pins, pure silver solder, and graphite domino plates.  Your Russian contacts should send you some of those tubes.


----------



## gibosi

Louisiana said:


> Thanks for the information.
> I don't know anything about tubes, the Dark Voice is my first Tube Amp - but that's why I'm here, to learn something.
> Converted into dollars, I paid $ 60 for the Tube...



If you would like to try a Telefunken output tube, search out the Telefunken 6080.

Some care is necessary as some of them are actually rebranded GE, but the real ones will have a 7-digit date code beginning with "U" indicating the city of Ulm, the location of the factory. 

https://www.audiotubes.com/teledate.htm


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Louisiana said:


> Thanks for the information.
> I don't know anything about tubes, the Dark Voice is my first Tube Amp - but that's why I'm here, to learn something.
> Converted into dollars, I paid $ 60 for the Tube...


@JKDJedi is the resident expert in the Dark Voice if I'm not mistaken...

What 6sn7 are you using?


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 12, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> @JKDJedi is the resident expert in the Dark Voice if I'm not mistaken...


Recalling a string of earlier posts 🤔, was it not @JKDJedi’s missing DarkVoice that was pictured on milk cartons?....a runaway DV....victim of domestic a(mp)buse....


----------



## Louisiana

PsilocybinCube said:


> What 6sn7 are you using?


Its a selected Tube, from a German Tube Shop:
https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/6sn7gt-tad-premium-selected


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Mr bcowen,
> 
> You haven’t heard a GEC 6080! I thought you owned all the tubes under the sun 😄


Well, all tubes except that one.


----------



## bcowen

Louisiana said:


> Ok.


All part of unraveling the mysteries of the tube world.  I have a pair that are in Amperex boxes, labeled as Amperex and also have "Made in England" silkscreened on the glass.  They're Russian Svetlanas.     Certainly not bad tubes, but they weren't made by Amperex.  For all I know, Amperex never made a 6AS7 type tube...


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  I forgot about the 'Pill-Pack' (tm pending) getter holder.  I have both, but the flying saucer seems to be the most prevalent.


Normal people refer to them as dimpled foil getters, but your description of "pill pack" somehow _doesn't_ seem strange considering the source.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Normal people refer to them as dimpled foil getters, but your description of "pill pack" somehow _doesn't_ seem strange considering the source.


If the GE 5998a is any good I will call it the GE_C, the GE that Cowen dissed.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> If the GE 5998a is any good I will call it the GE_C, the GE that Cowen dissed.


LOL!  Somehow I'm not too concerned that worrying about this will interfere with my nap this afternoon.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Somehow I'm not too concerned that worrying about this will interfere with my nap this afternoon.


I have 12:02 PM so you should be drifting off soon I would think. 
Oh I need to send you a bar b cue rating that has North Carolina in fourth place after Tennessee, Texas, and Missouri if I recall. Now they were comparing the eastern version of NC grub so maybe that is not your favorite. I want to say it was vinegar based.

https://www.ajc.com/news/national/america-best-states-for-bbq-ranked/gGDYDRazXobs7GE4TLJ5iM/

Georgia is number five yet rated number one as far as a specific restaurant. Sam should be happy.


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> All part of unraveling the mysteries of the tube world.  I have a pair that are in Amperex boxes, labeled as Amperex and also have "Made in England" silkscreened on the glass.  They're Russian Svetlanas.     Certainly not bad tubes, but they weren't made by Amperex.  For all I know, Amperex never made a 6AS7 type tube...


Yes, like these I seen recently on the bay.
Not true Amperex/Mullard.
The guy was auctioning them over and over for a long time and couldn't get anyone to buy them.
His pictues never showed the bottom where you could see the getter but I suspect Svetlanas.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Normal people refer to them as dimpled foil getters, but your description of "pill pack" somehow _doesn't_ seem strange considering the source.


My creativity knows no bounds.  It is a burden I must carry.


----------



## Velozity (Apr 13, 2021)

Paladin79 said:


> I have 12:02 PM so you should be drifting off soon I would think.
> Oh I need to send you a bar b cue rating that has North Carolina in fourth place after Tennessee, Texas, and Missouri if I recall. Now they were comparing the eastern version of NC grub so maybe that is not your favorite. I want to say it was vinegar based.
> 
> https://www.ajc.com/news/national/america-best-states-for-bbq-ranked/gGDYDRazXobs7GE4TLJ5iM/
> ...




I don't think that debate will ever die.  I grew up in NC so I'm biased, but I give credit where it's due.  Texas owns the brisket, KC and Memphis own the baby back ribs.  But NC owns pulled pork / whole hog.  Vinegar is a necessity!


----------



## Paladin79

Velozity said:


> I don't think that debate will ever die.  I grew up in NC so I'm biased, but I give credit where it's due.  Texas owns the brisket, KC owns the baby back ribs.  But NC owns pulled pork / whole hog.  Vinegar is a necessity!


Well said, I was mainly seeing if Bill was still awake.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> My creativity knows no bounds.  It is a burden I must carry.


It is a shame that genius is usually recognised posthumously....🥸☹️


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Apr 13, 2021)

Louisiana said:


> Its a selected Tube, from a German Tube Shop:
> https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/6sn7gt-tad-premium-selected


I'd certainly encourage you to check out some of the 6sn7 threads and experiment with that tube, too.  In my amp I've found it to be a bit more impactful than power tube swaps.

The Ken-Rad black or clear glass, RCA 1940s grey glass, Melz metal base, and Westinghouse Reliatrons have been some of my favorites.  And for bonus points, you can get an adapter to use (2) 6j5 tubes in place of the 6sn7.  The Tungsram CV1932 is probably my favorite of all 6j5 driver tubes at this very moment.  That opinion may change once more tubes arrive


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Yes, like these I seen recently on the bay.
> Not true Amperex/Mullard.
> The guy was auctioning them over and over for a long time and couldn't get anyone to buy them.
> His pictues never showed the bottom where you could see the getter but I suspect Svetlanas.


These are my Russian tubes that were Made In England:


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> Well said, I was mainly seeing if Bill was still awake.


I was having this weird dream about a GE tube sounding good, but then I woke up.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It is a shame that genius is usually recognised posthumously....🥸☹️


Or never.  But then we're talking about @Ripper2860 , so there's no correlation either way.


----------



## Ripper2860

Your children's children will sing songs to my greatness and worship at the feet of the many statues erected in my honor.  I have said it and therefore it is so.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> I was having this weird dream about a GE tube sounding good, but then I woke up.


I have a side getter GE 6SN7 that I actually like...am I crazy?


----------



## skhan007

bcowen said:


> These are my Russian tubes that were Made In England:


LOL! Good one.

Back in the day, did companies contract with one another on production of tubes? I recall hearing about Mullard, for example, using other companies brands for batches of tubes. Could the above Russian "Made in England" be an example or is this someone playing games with applying logos?




PsilocybinCube said:


> I have a side getter GE 6SN7 that I actually like...am I crazy?


The Elders have told me not to purchase GE!! What do I do?!


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> I have a side getter GE 6SN7 that I actually like...am I crazy?


Hang onto that tube in case I ever get in another GE bet with Cowen lol.


----------



## bcowen

skhan007 said:


> LOL! Good one.
> 
> Back in the day, did companies contract with one another on production of tubes? I recall hearing about Mullard, for example, using other companies brands for batches of tubes. Could the above Russian "Made in England" be an example or is this someone playing games with applying logos?


Yes, they did on a regular basis.  I don't think this was as widespread with Euro tubes as it was with US tubes (but may have been), and I don't think the Russian tube entries started happening until tube production was winding down substantially in Europe and the US (late 70's and after).


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I have a side getter GE 6SN7 that I actually like...am I crazy?


I can't answer the crazy part , but are you sure the tube was actually made by GE?  Etched dots and all?


----------



## Paladin79

skhan007 said:


> LOL! Good one.
> 
> Back in the day, did companies contract with one another on production of tubes? I recall hearing about Mullard, for example, using other companies brands for batches of tubes. Could the above Russian "Made in England" be an example or is this someone playing games with applying logos?
> 
> ...


I have some that are pretty good, of course they were really made by Ken-Rad.


----------



## Galapac

Paladin79 said:


> I have some that are pretty good, of course they were really made by Ken-Rad.


But wasn’t Ken-Rad just a division of GE?
From this web page article:
https://www.rfcafe.com/references/radio-news/ken-rad-ad-radio-news-april-1947.htm

_Behind Ken-Rad radio tubes stands Electronics' first and greatest name - General Electric 

Ken-Rad
Division of General Electric Company
Schenectady, New York_


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> But wasn’t Ken-Rad just a division of GE?
> From this web page article:
> https://www.rfcafe.com/references/radio-news/ken-rad-ad-radio-news-april-1947.htm
> 
> ...


GE bought Ken-Rad (Kentucky Radio) in 1945.  Ken-Rad was its own company prior to that, although it is possible GE provided some funding or had some involvement at a much earlier point. But the designs and manufacturing were all Kentucky Radio until GE acquired them (and the manufacturing plant in Owensboro, KY).


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> These are my Russian tubes that were Made In England:


Being made in England, did you expect Cyrillic lettering? 🤔🇷🇺


----------



## skhan007

I’d love it one of you guys would write a book on these great companies of years past. This is great stuff!


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> GE bought Ken-Rad (Kentucky Radio) in 1945.  Ken-Rad was its own company prior to that, although it is possible GE provided some funding or had some involvement at a much earlier point. But the designs and manufacturing were all Kentucky Radio until GE acquired them (and the manufacturing plant in Owensboro, KY).


You inspired me to do more research and Ken-Rad was an interesting company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Electrical_Lamp_Company

2 interesting facts:

The manufacturing company supplied the light bulbs for the first Major League Baseball game played at night. The game was played on May 24, 1935, between the Cincinnati Reds and the Philadelphia Phillies at Cincinnati's Crosley Field.

Ken-Rad was secured several government and defense contracts during World War II. The company grew to be very important to the war effort, and when it was threatened by a strike in 1944 it was seized by the Department of War under order of President Roosevelt.


----------



## Paladin79

Galapac said:


> You inspired me to do more research and Ken-Rad was an interesting company.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Electrical_Lamp_Company
> 
> 2 interesting facts:
> ...


Light bulbs and tubes went hand in hand, look at Sylvania.


----------



## gibosi

Paladin79 said:


> Light bulbs and tubes went hand in hand, look at Sylvania.



And one of the favorite companies in this thread, General Electric.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> @JKDJedi is the resident expert in the Dark Voice if I'm not mistaken...
> 
> What 6sn7 are you using?


Hey thanks for that, there's lots of other members here who deserve that title..but I'll take it!  Just jumped in, so not sure what the question was, but..as most amps out there, (domino plated)6520, 5998, 421a well make any amp jizz all over themselves. Currently driving them with dual VT94 Tin RCA's


----------



## raindownthunda

This seller has “6080WB” tubes for $25 each. The photo shows a Bendix 6080WB slotted plate. This is a pretty big gamble since there is basically no info in the listing and the photo says “Photo non-contractuelle”. If these are actually Bendix it could be a killer deal.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080WB-Tube-/203349821770?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


----------



## skhan007

I’d message the seller and ask for photos and more info.


----------



## hp4fun

raindownthunda said:


> This seller has “6080WB” tubes for $25 each. The photo shows a Bendix 6080WB slotted plate. This is a pretty big gamble since there is basically no info in the listing and the photo says “Photo non-contractuelle”. If these are actually Bendix it could be a killer deal.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080WB-Tube-/203349821770?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286



If it is too good to be true, probably it is not good at all.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Your children's children will sing songs to my greatness and worship at the feet of the many statues erected in my honor.  I have said it and therefore it is so.


Spoken from the GE pedestal of Ripper Jong Un...


----------



## DenverW

raindownthunda said:


> This seller has “6080WB” tubes for $25 each. The photo shows a Bendix 6080WB slotted plate. This is a pretty big gamble since there is basically no info in the listing and the photo says “Photo non-contractuelle”. If these are actually Bendix it could be a killer deal.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080WB-Tube-/203349821770?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286



He's listing a 6080wb tube, so that's what you'd get.  I'd say you're most likely to get some cheap 6080wb and not a bendix graphite plate.  You'll overpay for a sylvania.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

raindownthunda said:


> This seller has “6080WB” tubes for $25 each. The photo shows a Bendix 6080WB slotted plate. This is a pretty big gamble since there is basically no info in the listing and the photo says “Photo non-contractuelle”. If these are actually Bendix it could be a killer deal.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6080WB-Tube-/203349821770?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286


After some communication with the seller on their website, they indicated that they only have Thomson 6080WA in their inventory as of now, and possibly some pieces labelled 6080WB- definitely no graphite plate ones.


----------



## raindownthunda

tintinsnowydog said:


> After some communication with the seller on their website, they indicated that they only have Thomson 6080WA in their inventory as of now, and possibly some pieces labelled 6080WB- definitely no graphite plate ones.



Good looking out. Y’all were right, too good to be true  Safe to assume the other listing they have for 6080’s are not actually Mullards, as pictured in the photo...


----------



## jonathan c

raindownthunda said:


> Good looking out. Y’all were right, too good to be true  Safe to assume the other listing they have for 6080’s are not actually Mullards, as pictured in the photo...


If a seller posts a non-contractual photo of the goods, the seller should expect a non-contractual decision from the buyer...


----------



## hp4fun

Also be aware of this listing. Super fishy:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...e-getter-Valve-Tube-6AS7G-ECC230/124684180409

1) The seller has almost no history of almost everything and is 1 month new.
2) There is virtually 0 possibility of "combined postage availible. Please view my other listings". The typo of "availible" is the least problem.
3) "Tested on TV-7A", seriously? Unless the seller is a super hard core tube fan!
4) Postage is super high. Theoretically the seller can earn 2/3 of the postage. 

It is beyond "too good to be true", regardless of the final bidding price.


----------



## skhan007

Just arrived from a fellow forum member. I'll likely post more impressions later, but I'm less than 24 hours with these and still absorbing the tonal bliss. Right off the bat, I do think I like it better than my Bendix 6080.


----------



## JTbbb

skhan007 said:


> Just arrived from a fellow forum member. I'll likely post more impressions later, but I'm less than 24 hours with these and still absorbing the tonal bliss. Right off the bat, I do think I like it better than my Bendix 6080.



They are great tubes, so pleased your enjoying them.


----------



## JTbbb

hp4fun said:


> Also be aware of this listing. Super fishy:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...e-getter-Valve-Tube-6AS7G-ECC230/124684180409
> 
> ...



If those are the actual tubes, they look pretty cosha to me. And everyone has to start at some time on eBay. I‘ve not long been an eBay member myself, so maybe I’m missing something with this listing?


----------



## SHIMACM

And what do you say about this seller selling RCA 6as7g as if it were Tung-Sol 6as7g.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/333968654368


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Selling since 1998! 99.9% positive ratings... how is this possible?


----------



## SHIMACM

CaptainFantastic said:


> Selling since 1998! 99.9% positive ratings... how is this possible?



So it is. He must not be familiar with the internal structure of the tubes.


----------



## hp4fun

JTbbb said:


> If those are the actual tubes, they look pretty cosha to me. And everyone has to start at some time on eBay. I‘ve not long been an eBay member myself, so maybe I’m missing something with this listing?



I listed my concerns there and you did not miss anything. It just ..... stinks.


----------



## gibosi

SHIMACM said:


> And what do you say about this seller selling RCA 6as7g as if it were Tung-Sol 6as7g.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/333968654368



There is no deliberate deception. Back in the day, makers sourced tubes from other makers all the time, and it is the buyer's responsibility to determine who actually made the tube, not the seller's.  Tung-Sol sourced this tube from RCA, put their label on it and sold it.


----------



## skhan007

I have been studying the sonic characteristics of my newly acquired GEC 6080 tubes in my BHC. Not only do they pair well my clear top RCA driver tube, the pairing of this tube and my ZMF Auteur seem to be absolute perfection. The bass and sub-bass have an immediacy but not overwhelming. When I'm hearing the sound of the mylar drum heads being hit by plastic tip drum sticks, I feel like I'm right in front of the drummer, and yes, I can hear the micro details. The treble frequencies are vibrant and not overwhelming. Just right.

I think I understand what some have meant by certain tubes providing a wide sound stage (which I believed was the job of the headphone and angle/position of the driver relative to the ear). The instrument separation and definition create very distinct and discrete placement of the instruments, which are translated more accurately by my headphones. Compared to my stock Philips 6080, which came in the BHC amp, it's night and day. That tube blends everything together, while the GEC does the opposite and creates space between instruments. It might be too early to make any conclusive statements, but these sound like TOTL 6080 tubes to me, thus far. 

Question: It may be apples & oranges, but for those that have tried the 5998 vs. the GEC 6080, have you felt the difference was profound and justified with the big purchase of the 5998? I'd like to believe that at some point, I could stop and be happy with the tubes that I currently have (cue the collective laughter of all on the 6AS7G tube roller thread).


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> Selling since 1998! 99.9% positive ratings... how is this possible?


I've been buying and selling on Ebay since 1999, so nothing particularly out of order with that.


----------



## bcowen

hp4fun said:


> Also be aware of this listing. Super fishy:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...e-getter-Valve-Tube-6AS7G-ECC230/124684180409
> 
> ...



The tubes look legit as far as I can see.  The problems I have with the listing is he's either very sloppy with his wording, or doesn't have what he claims.  There is no such thing as a TV-7A tester.  There's a TV-7A/U, a TV-7B/U, TV-7D/U, etc, etc, but no TV-7 that is simply marked as TV-7A.  Secondly, and this is just a personal thing, but values posted by people using _any_ TV-7 tester are totally worthless to me *unless* they specifically state when the tester was last restored and calibrated, and by who.  The TV-7's are very complex testers. The full calibration procedure is 6 pages long, and most "hobbyists" don't have the equipment to properly calibrate them.  If I see the tester was rebuilt and calibrated by someone like Dan Nelson (one of the best in the biz IMO), then that means something and the tester is probably giving very accurate test readings.  But some clod picking up a beat-up TV-7 of whatever version and doing nothing more than seeing the meter needle move when they hit a button has a machine that's of no value whatsoever when it comes to test data.


----------



## hp4fun

bcowen said:


> The tubes look legit as far as I can see.  The problems I have with the listing is he's either very sloppy with his wording, or doesn't have what he claims.  There is no such thing as a TV-7A tester.  There's a TV-7A/U, a TV-7B/U, TV-7D/U, etc, etc, but no TV-7 that is simply marked as TV-7A.  Secondly, and this is just a personal thing, but values posted by people using _any_ TV-7 tester are totally worthless to me *unless* they specifically state when the tester was last restored and calibrated, and by who.  The TV-7's are very complex testers. The full calibration procedure is 6 pages long, and most "hobbyists" don't have the equipment to properly calibrate them.  If I see the tester was rebuilt and calibrated by someone like Dan Nelson (one of the best in the biz IMO), then that means something and the tester is probably giving very accurate test readings.  But some clod picking up a beat-up TV-7 of whatever version and doing nothing more than seeing the meter needle move when they hit a button has a machine that's of no value whatsoever when it comes to test data.



Yeah... I did not catch the TV-7A problem. I just thought anyone who has a TV-7* but only has 1 pair of (one of) the most valuable tubes is quite dramatic. Thanks for your thorough explanation.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

skhan007 said:


> I have been studying the sonic characteristics of my newly acquired GEC 6080 tubes in my BHC. Not only do they pair well my clear top RCA driver tube, the pairing of this tube and my ZMF Auteur seem to be absolute perfection. The bass and sub-bass have an immediacy but not overwhelming. When I'm hearing the sound of the mylar drum heads being hit by plastic tip drum sticks, I feel like I'm right in front of the drummer, and yes, I can hear the micro details. The treble frequencies are vibrant and not overwhelming. Just right.
> 
> I think I understand what some have meant by certain tubes providing a wide sound stage (which I believed was the job of the headphone and angle/position of the driver relative to the ear). The instrument separation and definition create very distinct and discrete placement of the instruments, which are translated more accurately by my headphones. Compared to my stock Philips 6080, which came in the BHC amp, it's night and day. That tube blends everything together, while the GEC does the opposite and creates space between instruments. It might be too early to make any conclusive statements, but these sound like TOTL 6080 tubes to me, thus far.
> 
> Question: It may be apples & oranges, but for those that have tried the 5998 vs. the GEC 6080, have you felt the difference was profound and justified with the big purchase of the 5998? I'd like to believe that at some point, I could stop and be happy with the tubes that I currently have (cue the collective laughter of all on the 6AS7G tube roller thread).


This is probably just me, but I feel like when I pair the 5998 with anything other than a 12au7 I have issues with a higher noise floor.

I prefer many tubes to the 12au7 so this can be a problem.

I don't have that issue with the Chatham 6as7g, so it might be that my two 5998 issues are the problem...I don't really want to buy a third 5998 to corroborate things.

All of this said - I think the GEC 6080 is mostly thought of as superior to a 5998.  A 5998 looks better, but that's a different conversation.

If I were you I would stop buying power tubes and dive in to the deep end of the driver.  The 6sn7 and dual 6j5 tubes are fun to play with.  The dual 6j5 has me absolutely captivated right now.  There are so many good options (many quite cheap) in that family and its equivalents.


P.S. - Dear Moderator - Please don't ban me for encouraging someone to stop buying power tubes on a thread dedicated to power tubes.


----------



## skhan007

Sounds good! Hoping to hear more thoughts, as well. 

I've seen the 12au7 -> 6sn7 adapter on ebay from the Garage1217 shop, so perhaps that's a thought. Is there a short list of 6sn7 tubes that pair well with GEC 6080 or Chatham 6as7g? Not sure I have the funding for the uber-rare/costly examples, but it would be good for me to research these a bit.


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Apr 22, 2021)

skhan007 said:


> Sounds good! Hoping to hear more thoughts, as well.
> 
> I've seen the 12au7 -> 6sn7 adapter on ebay from the Garage1217 shop, so perhaps that's a thought. Is there a short list of 6sn7 tubes that pair well with GEC 6080 or Chatham 6as7g? Not sure I have the funding for the uber-rare/costly examples, but it would be good for me to research these a bit.


So, you'd be looking at a 12au7 to 6sn7 AND perhaps the 12au7 to dual 6j5.

I'd recommend buying it from @Deyan 

I've had one Garage1217 adapter where there was some smoke and melting solder...that's a scary moment.


----------



## Ripper2860

I prefer a point-to-point wired adapter as opposed to one that uses a PCB like the Garage.  I have one and have never had an issue with it, but very much prefer Deyan's adapters over Garage and Chinese units.


----------



## maxpudding

PsilocybinCube said:


> I've had one Garage1217 adapter where there was some smoke and melting solder...that's a scary moment.



Melting solder?


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> This is probably just me, but I feel like when I pair the 5998 with anything other than a 12au7 I have issues with a higher noise floor.
> 
> I prefer many tubes to the 12au7 so this can be a problem.
> 
> ...


The 7A4's are worth having fun with too.  They are the single triode analog of the 6SN7 / 7N7 -- electrically identical but with different bases.  The 7A4 is identical to the 6J5 electrically (so you need 2 as they are single triodes) and have a loctal base so a different adapter is needed.  But they are plentiful and cheap, and many sound very very good.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

skhan007 said:


> Sounds good! Hoping to hear more thoughts, as well.
> 
> I've seen the 12au7 -> 6sn7 adapter on ebay from the Garage1217 shop, so perhaps that's a thought. Is there a short list of 6sn7 tubes that pair well with GEC 6080 or Chatham 6as7g? Not sure I have the funding for the uber-rare/costly examples, but it would be good for me to research these a bit.


There is a good 6sn7 addicts thread.  A good 6sn7 can be had


maxpudding said:


> Melting solder?


Yes.  The smoke was the scariest part.  Thankfully it wasn't the amp, only the adapter.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> The 7A4's are worth having fun with too.  They are the single triode analog of the 6SN7 / 7N7 -- electrically identical but with different bases.  The 7A4 is identical to the 6J5 electrically (so you need 2 as they are single triodes) and have a loctal base so a different adapter is needed.  But they are plentiful and cheap, and many sound very very good.


I just sent a PM to Deyan to purchase the 7a4 adapter for my BHC before reading this.  So...I concur. 

I love the 7a4 in my Incubus, though they do seem to be more prone to microphony than the 6j5.  Oh well, no tapping to the beat on my amp anymore.


----------



## hp4fun

skhan007 said:


> Sounds good! Hoping to hear more thoughts, as well.
> 
> I've seen the 12au7 -> 6sn7 adapter on ebay from the Garage1217 shop, so perhaps that's a thought. Is there a short list of 6sn7 tubes that pair well with GEC 6080 or Chatham 6as7g? Not sure I have the funding for the uber-rare/costly examples, but it would be good for me to research these a bit.



Ha, I asked the question in 6sn7 thread but I don't think I got any answers.

I do have the 12au7 to 6sn7 adapter and 6sn7 to 12au7 adapter. It sounded good to me but I wasn't sure if there was any serious (electrical?) issues.


----------



## gibosi

hp4fun said:


> Ha, I asked the question in 6sn7 thread but I don't think I got any answers.
> 
> I do have the 12au7 to 6sn7 adapter and 6sn7 to 12au7 adapter. It sounded good to me but I wasn't sure if there was any serious (electrical?) issues.



As long as the pins are realligned correctly, there should be no electrical issues.


----------



## dpump

Garage1217 adaptors are top quality and personally I prefer the pcb over wires due to much shorter signal path. Garage1217 sells 3 different 6SN7 to 12AU7 adaptors. 2 of them are specified to use only with 2 different Garage1217 amps and shouldn't be used on any other amps. The 3rd adaptor is made to be used with any other amp. You have to read the specs for the  Garage1217 adaptors to be sure you are ordering the universal one or contact Jeremy at Garage1217 before ordering. Most likely the person that experienced melting solder on a Garage1217 adaptor was using the incorrect adaptor-using one of the 2 that are only for Garage1217 amps. 

Also, Bottlehead does not recommend using 6SN7 or 6DJ8 tubes with adaptors unless making the appropriate changes to the circuitry to properly accomodate the tube. You can find all of this discussed on the Bottleheadforums.


----------



## skhan007

dpump said:


> Garage1217 adaptors are top quality and personally I prefer the pcb over wires due to much shorter signal path. Garage1217 sells 3 different 6SN7 to 12AU7 adaptors. 2 of them are specified to use only with 2 different Garage1217 amps and shouldn't be used on any other amps. The 3rd adaptor is made to be used with any other amp. You have to read the specs for the  Garage1217 adaptors to be sure you are ordering the universal one or contact Jeremy at Garage1217 before ordering. Most likely the person that experienced melting solder on a Garage1217 adaptor was using the incorrect adaptor-using one of the 2 that are only for Garage1217 amps.
> 
> Also, Bottlehead does not recommend using 6SN7 or 6DJ8 tubes with adaptors unless making the appropriate changes to the circuitry to properly accomodate the tube. You can find all of this discussed on the Bottleheadforums.


Thanks- Yes, I noted Garage1217 sells one that is specific to the BHC. Regarding the use of 6sn7, if memory serves me right, one needs the speedball mod (which I have), so I think that's sufficient, but I'll need to double check. I'll also look into the PTP adapter from Deyan, as you guys recommended that as well. 

I should dive into the 6sn7 thread and begin my education. Curious what a 6sn7 will offer beyond a really good 12au7, specifically.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

dpump said:


> Garage1217 adaptors are top quality and personally I prefer the pcb over wires due to much shorter signal path. Garage1217 sells 3 different 6SN7 to 12AU7 adaptors. 2 of them are specified to use only with 2 different Garage1217 amps and shouldn't be used on any other amps. The 3rd adaptor is made to be used with any other amp. You have to read the specs for the  Garage1217 adaptors to be sure you are ordering the universal one or contact Jeremy at Garage1217 before ordering. Most likely the person that experienced melting solder on a Garage1217 adaptor was using the incorrect adaptor-using one of the 2 that are only for Garage1217 amps.
> 
> Also, Bottlehead does not recommend using 6SN7 or 6DJ8 tubes with adaptors unless making the appropriate changes to the circuitry to properly accomodate the tube. You can find all of this discussed on the Bottleheadforums.


I - the guilty party - may well have used an incorrect adapter from Garage.  The info about the three different adapters is certainly helpful info to anyone interested.

Regarding the different tubes, I believe the Speedball is necessary to accommodate the 6sn7.  The 6j5 is 1/2 of a 6sn7 so it should be fine.  I haven't used the 6dj8 but I know I've seen folks use that with the DV.

Adapters can be tricky.  I will only order adapters from Bulgaria now.  That's the most reliable approach.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 22, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> The 6j5 is 1/2 of a 6sn7 so it should be fine.


I'm far from the 6J5 expert, but don't you need 2x 6J5s for stereo.  And don't 2 halves make a whole?


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Apr 22, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm far form the 6J5 expert, but don't you need 2x 6J5s for stereo.  And don't 2 halves make a whole?


Yes...I was speaking to the mono lovers among us.

But seriously, your 6sn7 (or 12au7) to 6j5 adapter will contain two sockets to plug in your favorite 6j5 tubes.  I was referring to the fact that the BHC with Speedball handles the 6sn7, so 1/2 of a 6sn7 (multiplied by 2) = musical bliss and an empty paypal account.

Matched pairs for the win.


----------



## gibosi

skhan007 said:


> Thanks- Yes, I noted Garage1217 sells one that is specific to the BHC. Regarding the use of 6sn7, if memory serves me right, one needs the speedball mod (which I have), so I think that's sufficient, but I'll need to double check. I'll also look into the PTP adapter from Deyan, as you guys recommended that as well.
> 
> I should dive into the 6sn7 thread and begin my education. *Curious what a 6sn7 will offer beyond a really good 12au7, specifically.*



It's not that the 6SN7 offers something beyond a 12AU7. Rather, it offers something equally excellent but different. 

These 6SN7 threads are very helpful.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread

http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide

And there is also the ECC40, which Philips introduced specifically to replace the 6SN7. But as we all know, the 6SN7 refused to go away. lol


----------



## skhan007

gibosi said:


> It's not that the 6SN7 offers something beyond a 12AU7. Rather, it offers something equally excellent but different.
> 
> These 6SN7 threads are very helpful.
> 
> ...


Excellent! Can't wait to dive in and study.

I also found this one, so in addition to the two above, I've also added this one to my watch list:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-addicts.479031/


----------



## LoryWiv

gibosi said:


> It's not that the 6SN7 offers something beyond a 12AU7. Rather, it offers something equally excellent but different.
> 
> These 6SN7 threads are very helpful.
> 
> ...


Is ECC 40 a drop-in replacement for 6SN7 or are adapters required?


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Is ECC 40 a drop-in replacement for 6SN7 or are adapters required?



Unfortunately, the ECC40 is an all-glass Rimlock tube and an adapter is necessary. My suspicion is that this weird base and pin-out is major reason they were not a marketing success.


----------



## Ripper2860

<nothing to see here>


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> And there is also the ECC40, which Philips introduced specifically to replace the 6SN7. But as we all know, the 6SN7 refused to go away. lol




With gain (or amplification factor) of 32, only a fool can call ECC40 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 (gain of 20) replacement. In fact ECC40 is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC (gain of 33) replacement electrically.

Similarly, only fools will call ECC32 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 replacement, it is also a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC replacement instead.

I also checked ECC31 (gain of 32), ECC33 (gain of 35), ECC34 (gain of 11.5), ECC35 (gain of 68), but none of them is 6SN7-equivalent !!! 

Anyone who calls ECC31/32/33/34/35/40 a 6SN7 replacement is either an utterly tube novice or a tube vendor who tries to sell his ECC?? tubes to you for a premium, otherwise why would he try to link something completely different electrically to the popular 6SN7 tube class? 

@attmci once quoted me on the Mullard ECC32 tube in the BHC thread, so just copy&paste my answer to him below:



cddc said:


> No, it's actually crazy expensive . It's actually the reason why it successfully caught my attention in the first place.
> 
> I don't know who pushed up its price, maybe those crazy 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC users (some premium versions of this ECC88 family tubes can fetch $300-$500+), maybe some Mullard hoarders, or less likely some unwise 6SN7 users.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tom-s

cddc said:


> With gain (or amplification factor) of 32, only a fool can call ECC40 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 (gain of 20) replacement. In fact ECC40 is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC (gain of 33) replacement electrically.
> 
> Similarly, only fools will call ECC32 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 replacement, it is also a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC replacement instead.
> 
> ...


Be careful when making statements as above.
And be nice to one another. As with knowledge; you might discover "fools" to be correct; and part of your own statements very much incorrect.

It's true the ECC32 by Mullard is not an exact 6SN7. People stating otherwise are not completely wrong as the ECC32 by Chinese companies; in many cases, is an exact 6SN7 electrically (just has fancy shape). This leads to confusion as can be understood.

Note; similar tubes in gain are not electrically similar. An ECC88 and ECC32 are close in gain. But not in any other parameters.

An amp optimized for ECC32 will malfunction with ECC88 and vice-versa. Tube rolling them is potentially problematic.

The "fool" @gibosi is actually very much correct the ECC40 being the European 6SN7 counterpart; descendent.
And in certain amps. It's a great sound alternative to 6SN7; carefull as it does bias differently. 
For amps that are designed with the original Mullard ECC32 it's a perfect tube rolling option as it will bias very close to the ECC32's operating point.

Here's how the naming system worked for those interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullard–Philips_tube_designation


----------



## JTbbb

cddc said:


> With gain (or amplification factor) of 32, only a fool can call ECC40 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 (gain of 20) replacement. In fact ECC40 is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC (gain of 33) replacement electrically.
> 
> Similarly, only fools will call ECC32 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 replacement, it is also a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC replacement instead.
> 
> ...



The Euforia uses 6sn7 drivers and the manual states ecc32’s can be used. I got in touch with Feliks and specifically asked about using Mullard brown base ecc32’s. The reply was they are perfectly ok as long as they are reasonably matched.


----------



## gibosi

cddc said:


> With gain (or amplification factor) of 32, only a fool can call ECC40 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 (gain of 20) replacement. In fact ECC40 is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC (gain of 33) replacement electrically.
> 
> Similarly, only fools will call ECC32 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 replacement, it is also a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC replacement instead.
> 
> ...



It would appear that someone got up on the wrong side of the bed.....


----------



## SHIMACM

I have a GEC 6080 that when I turn it on it has a blue gas inside it that then disappears. This is normal? Is it something I should be concerned about?


----------



## Ripper2860

Same happens with my graphite plate Chatham 6080WBs (2 of them) and my Bendix 6080 graphite/slotted plate.  Never had an issue and I'm pretty sure others have described the same thing, so I'd say you are good.


----------



## Galapac (Apr 23, 2021)

Yep, as @Ripper2860  stated, I even have some Mullard 6080s that do it and think its a cool factor.
Consider yourself lucky with one of these tubes.
Sometimes called the Mullard glow, I've been told it's more common in slow start tubes such as the Mullards, Bendix, GEC, etc.

Here is mine I caught one dark night...

Mullard Glow


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> Yep, as @Ripper2860  stated, I even have some Mullard 6080s that do it and think its a cool factor.
> Consider yourself lucky with one of these tubes.
> Sometimes called the Mullard glow, I've been told it's more common in slow start tubes such as the Mullards, Bendix, GEC, etc.
> 
> ...


Coolness factor!!

Formally known as fluorescence, it's nothing to worry about.  Seems to occur more frequently with directly-heated triodes (like 300B's, 2A3's, etc) than indirects like 6080's, 6AS7's, etc, but consider it a visual bonus and not a cause for concern.


----------



## SHIMACM

Guys, thanks again!

By the way, what an incredible combination this is: GEC 6080 and Fivre 6C5G.

The best combination I have so far along with Chatham 6as7g and TS 6j5g and gt.


----------



## Galapac

I'm really surprised that sellers have not sold the fluorescence glow tubes at a premium over others...but give it time.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 23, 2021)

Galapac said:


> I'm really surprised that sellers have not sold the fluorescence glow tubes at a premium over others...but give it time.






Galapac said:


> I've been told it's more common in slow start tubes such as the *Mullards, Bendix, GEC, *etc.



I think if you look at prices for Mullard, Bendix, GEC 6080s, you'll see that they already do charge premium prices!!


----------



## cddc (Apr 23, 2021)

Tom-s said:


> Be careful when making statements as above.
> And be nice to one another. As with knowledge; you might discover "fools" to be correct; and part of your own statements very much incorrect.
> 
> It's true the ECC32 by Mullard is not an exact 6SN7. People stating otherwise are not completely wrong as the ECC32 by Chinese companies; in many cases, is an exact 6SN7 electrically (just has fancy shape). This leads to confusion as can be understood.
> ...





gibosi said:


> It would appear that someone got up on the wrong side of the bed.....



It is a clear cut here, as the data has been given above. With a gain of 32, ECC32/ECC40 is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC (gain of 33) replacement, rather than a 6SN7 (gain of 20) replacement. I can't believe someone would try to rebuke the facts!  Please DO let me know which part of my statements was incorrect or misleading?

Calling an ECC32/ECC40 tube as a 6SN7 is as ridiculous as calling a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC tube a 6SN7, and there is only one explanation for that - some vendors trying to con people into buying ECC32/ECC40 tubes as the popular 6SN7 tube class.

The Chinese company Psvane calling their 6SN7 tubes as CV181/ECC32 is a big marketing gimmick and a huge error, because you just can't call an electrically 6SN7 tube (gain of 20) as an ECC32 tube (gain of 32)!

A 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC tube or an ECC32/ECC40 tube might work in the 6SN7 socket without problem depending on the circuitry design, some circuitries provide lots of flexibility and allow various input tubes (such as 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC or ECC32/ECC40 or even 6SL7) to replace their 6SN7 input tube, but some circuitries with tighter tolerance might not allow users to replace their 6SN7 input tubes with 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/ECC32/ECC40 tubes - it might overdrive their power tube grids and cause distortion. And even if a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC tube or an ECC32/ECC40 tube works in a socket designed for 6SN7, the tube is *NOT* correctly biased in such circuitry, hence doesn't work at its optimal operating points (i.e. more distortion can be expected, compared to working at its optimal operating points).

In order to qualify for a 6SN7 tube/equivalent, a tube's gain has to be 20 or close (+/- 10%, or +/- 20% if you relax the restriction a little bit). But again, calling a ECC32/ECC40/6DJ8/6922/ECC88 tube a 6SN7 tube is just ridiculous!





JTbbb said:


> The Euforia uses 6sn7 drivers and the manual states ecc32’s can be used. I got in touch with Feliks and specifically asked about using Mullard brown base ecc32’s. The reply was they are perfectly ok as long as they are reasonably matched.



Yes, I know some Feliks amps (such as Euforia/Elise) provide a quite flexible circuitry for their 6SN7 input tubes, you can use lots of non-6SN7 tubes in their 6SN7 sockets, such as ECC32 or even KT66. But you won't call a KT66 tube 6SN7, will you? (please also refer to my paragraphs above for reasoning)


----------



## Tom-s (Apr 23, 2021)

cddc said:


> It is a clear cut here, as the data has been given above. With a gain of 32, *ECC32/ECC40 is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC (gain of 33) replacement,* rather than a 6SN7 (gain of 20) replacement. I can't believe someone would try to rebuke the facts!  Please DO let me know which part of my statements was incorrect or misleading?



Sure.. I've highlighted that part in *red*.

* For the "facts!"; see the tube datasheets below.

And this part of the post you wrote before this. That basically comes down to the same.


cddc said:


> With gain (or amplification factor) of 32, only a fool can call ECC40 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 (gain of 20) replacement. In fact ECC40 is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC (gain of 33) *replacement electrically.*
> 
> Similarly, only fools will call ECC32 (gain of 32) a 6SN7 replacement, *it is also a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC replacement instead.*


*data sheets below.




cddc said:


> but some circuitries with tighter tolerance might not allow users to replace their 6SN7 input tubes with 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/ECC32/ECC40 tubes - it might *overdrive* their power tube grids and cause distortion.


If an amplifier is DC coupled; it is the operating point of the driver tube that determines the grid voltage of the output stage. Using an incorrect driver tube will lead to extra distortion because the output tube grid is running out of spec (limiting it's voltage swing at one end); causing the sine wave that it's supposed to produce to be flattened at one half (distortion). The gain of the driver tube has little to do with this. Imagine two driver tubes; that both bias the same and have a different gain (with a perfect constant anode load). Both drive the theoretical output tube optimally and will produce the same sound quality. The higher gain one only leaves you less room on your volume knob to play with before it's too loud.




cddc said:


> Calling an ECC32/ECC40 tube as a 6SN7 is as ridiculous as calling a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC tube 6SN7, and there is only one explanation for that -


Luckily we have more than one explanation. Historically the ECC40 was designed / intended to replace a 6SN7. Some well known historic valve websites even make note of this; like The Valve Museum does: http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0525.htm

* Here's the tube datasheets in question.
6SN7: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf
ECC88: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/009/e/E88CC.pdf
ECC40:  https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/046/e/ECC40.pdf
ECC32: https://tube-data.com/sheets/154/e/ECC32.pdf

Edit: Honestly hope this helps. Nothing personal.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Galapac said:


> I'm really surprised that sellers have not sold the fluorescence glow tubes at a premium over others...but give it time.


I had a Chatham 6as7g make beautiful rainbows for the first time today when I turned it on.  Then I plugged in my headphones to hear a wall of fuzz...sad day when I have to make another tombstone for a lost tube.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I had a Chatham 6as7g make beautiful rainbows for the first time today when I turned it on.  Then I plugged in my headphones to hear a wall of fuzz...sad day when I have to make another tombstone for a lost tube.


Did you try resoldering the pins?  I'm running across quite a few Tung-Sols of late (of which Chatham is) that have this issue.


----------



## cddc

Tom-s said:


> Sure.. I've highlighted that part in *red*.
> 
> * For the "facts!"; see the tube datasheets below.
> 
> ...



I have no problem with the tube datasheets that Frank’s website provides (the links at the bottom), actually I use the same datasheets. But the disagreement between you and me is that from these tube datasheets, I derived my conclusion that ECC32/ECC40 (gain of 32) is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88/E188CC (gain of 33) replacement, rather than a 6SN7 (gain of 20) replacement. But you think ECC32/ECC40 is a 6SN7 replacement.

These tube datasheets are from tube manufacturers, and are the most accurate source of info on tubes IMHO. So I based my conclusion on the info that I read from these tube datasheets.

But you just marked all these red and think them incorrect. You did not drive your conclusion from the tube datasheets, but rather you based your conclusion on some unreliable sources, such as www.r-type.org or Wikipedia, and concluded that ECC32/ECC40 is a 6SN7 replacement/equivalent? 

Wikipedia is a quite unreliable source of info, anyone can throw anything or modify anything on it. Oftentimes I find info on Wikipedia erroneous and self-conflicting, especially on topics that are not well known. Www.r-type.org is also just a personal website, the owner/(s) can throw anything they copied from somewhere else onto it. If memory serves, www.r-type.org got their tube datasheets mostly from frank’s website. So I'd rather rely on the info from tube datasheets.

To me whether ECC32/ECC40 is a 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 replacement or a 6SN7 tube replacement is a clear cut, based on the tube datasheets, I’ll let readers here to make their own judgements. And I repeat the essence of my point, in order to qualify for a 6SN7 tube/equivalent, a tube's gain has to be 20 or close (+/- 10%, or +/- 20% if you relax the restriction a little bit).

"*it is the operating point of the driver tube that determines the grid voltage of the output stage*"

I think your comment above is incorrect. Grid voltage of the output tube is mainly determined by the cathode resistor loaded onto the output tube and the DC current through the cathode resistor (which is also affected by the internal resistance of the output tube and the plate resistance that is loaded onto the output tube, among other things). The driver tube only determines the range of voltage swing loaded onto the output tube grid. If the driver tube swings the output tube grid voltage too much (either in the positive direction or in the negative direction), the output tube will clip and cause severe distortion.

An ECC32/ECC40 tube is *NOT* biased correctly in a 6SN7 socket, that’s something I’ve said earlier.


-----------------------------------
PS: nothing personal, just discuss understanding of tubes and tube circuitry.


----------



## gibosi

I would like to remind cddc that this is a thread related to 6AS7, and similar tubes, not 6SN7s. And if you wish to continue going on and on about suitable replacements for 6SN7's, I suggest you take it to another thread.

However, since my suggestion that ECC40's can be considered as a replacement driver in place of a 6SN7 seems to have started this, I will simply state that I have been using ECC40s in place of the 6SN7 in my OTL amp for the past 5 years. and they sound fine. And it doesn't matter to me one bit if you keep pointing to a datasheet and insist that it can't sound good. I believe my ears. After all, tubes can't read and it appears that they don't know that they shouldn't sound good in my amp. 

I'm done here...

Cheers


----------



## cddc

gibosi said:


> I would like to remind cddc that this is a thread related to 6AS7, and similar tubes, not 6SN7s. And if you wish to continue going on and on about suitable replacements for 6SN7's, I suggest you take it to another thread.
> 
> However, since my suggestion that ECC40's can be considered as a replacement driver in place of a 6SN7 seems to have started this, I will simply state that I have been using ECC40s in place of the 6SN7 in my OTL amp for the past 5 years. and they sound fine. And it doesn't matter to me one bit if you keep pointing to a datasheet and insist that it can't sound good. I believe my ears. After all, tubes can't read and it appears that they don't know that they shouldn't sound good in my amp.
> 
> ...



LOL, how ironic a person started first the topic on an ECC40 driver tube in the 6AS7 power tube thread is now suggesting me to discuss ECC40/ECC32 elsewhere one-sidedly (have you reminded yourself and Tom?).

Lots of 6SN7 tube discussion here in the 6AS7 thread, and honestly I don't really mind, and I think lots of people won't too (and they did this a lot too), because lots of their amps use 6SN7 tubes as well. Of course I have no problem moving the discussion to 6SN7 threads as well if all agree.


----------



## LoryWiv (Apr 24, 2021)

PsilocybinCube said:


> I had a Chatham 6as7g make beautiful rainbows for the first time today when I turned it on.  Then I plugged in my headphones to hear a wall of fuzz...sad day when I have to make another tombstone for a lost tube.


I can commiserate @PsilocybinCube, was happily running EL34 powers but today one of them first "brought the fuzz "then" gave up the ghost". Sill lights up great, but no output despite repeat pin cleaning etc... I think I'll sell it's perfectly healthy companion and hunt for another matched pair.


----------



## attmci (Apr 25, 2021)

In specific amp, a higher gain tube could lead to "hair" trigger" issue. On another one, it just works fine.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll throw in my 2 cents: No issues with my use of a Tungsram ECC40 on Lyr 3 with a Deyan-made rimlok -> 6SN7 adapter.  Seemingly a case for YMMV.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll throw in my 2 cents: No issues with my use of a Tungsram ECC40 on Lyr 3 with a Deyan-made rimlok -> 6SN7 adapter.  Seemingly a case for YMMV.


Try that with the Incubus yet?  I'm curious to try...I have an order in with Deyan, I could throw in one more adapter.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Try that with the Incubus yet?  I'm curious to try...I have an order in with Deyan, I could throw in one more adapter.


The ECC40 sounds great in_ my_ Incubus.  The TS 5998 is not the best pairing (a bit too mid-forward for my tastes), but pairs nicely with an RCA 6AS7G or the Mullard 6080.  I have Tungsram and Miniwatt (Philips) ECC40's and personally prefer the Tungsram.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> The ECC40 sounds great in_ my_ Incubus.  The TS 5998 is not the best pairing (a bit too mid-forward for my tastes), but pairs nicely with an RCA 6AS7G or the Mullard 6080.  I have Tungsram and Miniwatt (Philips) ECC40's and personally prefer the Tungsram.



That Miniwatt Dario could have been manufactured in any of Philips' factories, but I would guess it is French production - Chartres or Suresnes. The code is typically printed on the bottom around the pins + for Chartres and F for Suresnes. And as an aside, I don't much care for either of these. Philips also manufactred this tube at Eindhoven (4 or 5) and Sittard (X or +) in Holland and at Hamburg (D) in Germany. Mullard didn't make this tube.


----------



## Dogmatrix

The only thing I check is current draw other than that if it fits or there is an adapter I will stick it in and see what happens


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Dogmatrix said:


> I will stick it in and see what happens


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> That Miniwatt Dario could have been manufactured in any of Philips' factories, but I would guess it is French production - Chartres or Suresnes. The code is typically printed on the bottom around the pins + for Chartres and F for Suresnes. And as an aside, I don't much care for either of these. Philips also manufactred this tube at Eindhoven (4 or 5) and Sittard (X or +) in Holland and at Hamburg (D) in Germany. Mullard didn't make this tube.


Yeah, I found the Miniwatt to be rather sluggish sounding without much drive or dynamic pop.  The Tungsram will rock out pretty nicely with great bass and dynamics, but lacking a bit in midrange harmonic detail.  Neither are at the top of my list right now, but I haven't played with them that much and perhaps haven't found the right power tube combo just yet.


----------



## attmci

PsilocybinCube said:


> Try that with the Incubus yet?  I'm curious to try...I have an order in with Deyan, I could throw in one more adapter.


What's a Incubus?


----------



## CADCAM

My amp is a Monoprice Monolith tube headphone amp using a single 6AS7G\6080 tube and a pair of 6N3P drivers. I really enjoy this amp and most tubes play nice in it but I do have an issue where one of my favorite tubes, a CEI 6080, will sound glorious and then make a sound like ffffffffffffff then a little crackling static sound then smooth out again. (I hope that description wasn't too technical.) 

Anyone here know if this is related to the CEI tube itself, the driver tubes or the amp? A couple other tubes I have make noise as soon as headphones are plugged in but this CEI is dead quiet then the little static issue then back to silent. It can screw up an otherwise fantastic listening session...


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> What's a Incubus?



@Paladin79 builds amps and a number of folks in this thread have one, a model called the Incubus.


----------



## gibosi

CADCAM said:


> My amp is a Monoprice Monolith tube headphone amp using a single 6AS7G\6080 tube and a pair of 6N3P drivers. I really enjoy this amp and most tubes play nice in it but I do have an issue where one of my favorite tubes, a CEI 6080, will sound glorious and then make a sound like ffffffffffffff then a little crackling static sound then smooth out again. (I hope that description wasn't too technical.)
> 
> Anyone here know if this is related to the CEI tube itself, the driver tubes or the amp? A couple other tubes I have make noise as soon as headphones are plugged in but this CEI is dead quiet then the little static issue then back to silent. It can screw up an otherwise fantastic listening session...



It is likely the tube itself. The first thing I think you should try is to thoroughly clean the pins. I use 220 grit sandpaper. If that doesn't work, a number of folks have had good luck reheating the pins with a soldering iron in order reflow the solder inside the pin. And it may just be that the tube is defective resulting in an intermittent internal connection.


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> @Paladin79 builds amps and a number of folks in this thread have one, a model called the Incubus.


I knew Tom had been building larger case for the Crack. Now he has a new named amp.


----------



## skhan007 (May 8, 2021)

In my limited time with my BHC Speedy and my very modest selection of power tubes, I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know each of the three pictured below.







I find it really hard to choose between the three (the good news is that I don't have to. I can enjoy all three!), but I have noted some differences: The Chatham 6AS7G is bold, thick in the bass/sub-bass, and very warm sounding. It is a great GREAT all-around tube. The GEC is the most detailed, has the soundstage thing going, as the instrument separation is so superb. It does not have the deep bass extension, but it makes up for it with definition, crisp & brilliant high end, and again, the amazing soundstage and separation of instruments. So incredibly clear! The Bendix is somewhat between the two and has a good amount of warmth and very nice soundstage, though not as much as the GEC. Over the past month, I think the GEC fits the bill for me. It's a very close race between these three however! I'm using ZMF Auteur (teak) cans, an RME ADI-2 DAC, and listening to prog rock lossless files, and an RCA clear top driver, if any of that matters. This exploration of tubes with my music is sheer joy that I struggle to convey verbally.


----------



## Galapac (May 8, 2021)

skhan007 said:


> In my limited time with my BHC Speedy and my very modest selection of power tubes, I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know each of the three pictured below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s a nice problem to have my friend, you have definitely chosen wisely with your selection of power tubes.
What drivers do you prefer?
For 12AU7 I am currently using a new issue Genelex ECC82 or an off brand Mullard 12AU7 with good synergy with the tubes you mention.
I’ve yet to install the speedball so I assume more good things are about to come.


----------



## maxpudding

skhan007 said:


> In my limited time with my BHC Speedy and my very modest selection of power tubes, I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know each of the three pictured below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice! Those are great tubes

The RME is a very good DAC with plenty of features, I enjoy listening to music with it and my BH C2A. Then I got myself a tube DAC, and the synergy between the the amp and the DAC is much much better according to my ears. However, that’s another topic for another time/thread lol (and of course, another rabbit hole).


----------



## whirlwind (May 9, 2021)

skhan007 said:


> In my limited time with my BHC Speedy and my very modest selection of power tubes, I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know each of the three pictured below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats on those. Fantastic tubes.
At some point maybe add 5998 and Mullard 6080 and call it a day on power tubes...or if not you are still good maybe just add anRCA6080.
Then roll those with your favorite driver tubes and enjoy the music


----------



## skhan007

Galapac said:


> That’s a nice problem to have my friend, you have definitely chosen wisely with your selection of power tubes.
> What drivers do you prefer?
> For 12AU7 I am currently using a new issue Genelex ECC82 or an off brand Mullard 12AU7 with good synergy with the tubes you mention.
> I’ve yet to install the speedball so I assume more good things are about to come.


Thanks- I have about zero experience with drivers. The BHC came stock with a GE, which was promptly swapped for a clear top RCA. This came highly recommended from some fellow members on this thread and they were correct- it’s a great driver tube. Thanks for the recommendation on the Genelex and Mullard!


----------



## jonathan c (May 10, 2021)

whirlwind said:


> Congrats on those. Fantastic tubes.
> At some point maybe add 5998 and Mullard 6080 and call it a day on power tubes...or if not you are still good maybe just add anRCA6080.
> Then roll those with your favorite driver tubes and enjoy the music


The 5998 can be Tung Sol and the GE 5998a (!). The latter may be a surprise to you: it really is very good (I own four of them).


----------



## maxpudding

jonathan c said:


> The 5998 can be Tung Sol and GE (!). The latter may be a surprise to you: it really is very good (I own four of them).



Do you mean the GE 5998A?


----------



## jonathan c

maxpudding said:


> Do you mean the GE 5998A?


Yes


----------



## whirlwind

jonathan c said:


> The 5998 can be Tung Sol and the GE 5998a (!). The latter may be a surprise to you: it really is very good (I own four of them).


I own a couple of 5998A tubes, but to be honest it is no where near the domino plate tube.


----------



## UntilThen

whirlwind said:


> I own a couple of 5998A tubes, but to be honest it is no where near the domino plate tube.



Fully agree. I've own both too and I need not add anything more to what you said.


----------



## SHIMACM

whirlwind said:


> I own a couple of 5998A tubes, but to be honest it is no where near the domino plate tube.


I fully agree! For me, even the RCA 6as7g is better than the GE 5998A.


----------



## SHIMACM

On the topic of Darkvoice, which now looks more like the topic of Incubus (amplifier designed by a member there), there are people promoting this GE 5998 tube, which is making its price go up.  I even stopped following that topic.  They had the courage to say that it was my GE that was defective.


----------



## UntilThen

SHIMACM said:


> They had the courage to say that it was my GE that was defective.


----------



## maxpudding

Well, at least some people are buying them, then perhaps I’ll see less of them being sold on ebay lol

Also, special thanks to @bcowen campaign of “cancelling” GE, I managed to stay away from accidentally purchasing some 5998A’s in the past 😅


----------



## UntilThen

Not all GEs are bad but then all 5691 are made by RCA regardless and are rebranded other names, in this case GE.

A word from the sponsor..
_The RCA "Special Red" tubes (5690, 5691, 5692, 5693) were designed for 10,000 hours of use when used within their ratings. RCA claimed the 5691 tube could withstand shocks of 100 G's for extended periods of time!_

The 5691 Red Base tube is a premium low noise version of the 6SL7-GT tube which I will be using in Odyssey as a single double triode driver.


----------



## maxpudding (May 10, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Not all GEs are bad but then all 5691 are made by RCA regardless and are rebranded other names, in this case GE.
> 
> A word from the sponsor..
> _The RCA "Special Red" tubes (5690, 5691, 5692, 5693) were designed for 10,000 hours of use when used within their ratings. RCA claimed the 5691 tube could withstand shocks of 100 G's for extended periods of time!_
> ...



Yes of course

I have a few GE JG-6100 6C4WA triple mica tubes that sound awesome. The sound is, dare I say it, better than some 6SN7's that I own.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2021)

I thought I would never be doing this, but I must defend the GE 5998A.  While it is certainly NOT the equivalent of the TS 5998 or even the Chatham bottom getter 6AS7G, it is surprisingly good in my experience. With my gear, ears, and music it delivers a significant portion of the TS 5998 sound with a bit more bass impact on the bottom-end.  It pairs nicely with my Fivre black-base 6SN7GT.  The GE was certainly a bit less exciting with other drivers, so maybe tube pairing and synergy is more critical.  I'm not contradicting or attempting to invalidate anyone's experience with this tube as I am sure they are as as stated, but honestly, I expected far, far worse from the GE 5998A.  At the $47 I paid and with the right amp/driver tube pairing, it really did represent a pretty good value.  It allows me to extend the life of my much more costly TS 5998 and Chatham bottom getter 6AS7G by allowing me a very suitable rolling option!


Note 1:  I have a Sylvania 5998A on the way and am curious to contrast and compare it against the GE 5998A and TS 5998.  The construction looks a bit different than the GE, so it really has my curiosity meter moving.

Note 2:  Have you guys seen what the pricing levels on Chatham 6AS7G have risen to?  They are now typically north of $100!  I was buying them at $35-$60 not that long ago!!

Note 3:  I've not had my socks knocked off by any 6080 tubes (Sylvania, RCA, Thomson-CF, etc).  Not even the Graphite plate Chathams and Bendix.  I do find the Sylvania Gold Brand triple mica and the Mullards very nice, but they just do not quite reach the level of a good 6AS7G / 5998 / 421A, IMHO.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Funnily enough, GE did also rebrand Tung Sol/Chatham tubes- here on the left is a Chatham 6AS7 labelled GE with identical internal construction to a normally labelled one on the right. AFAIK, only TS/Chatham and RCA made the shoulder shaped 6AS7 in the US, all others are rebrands. Sylvania 6AS7s also come up fairly often and are RCAs.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2021)

Well, the secret is out now, I'm afraid.  


In addition to Chatham and even  Tung-Sol bottom getter 6AS7Gs, I own a couple of these GE branded as well as a CBS variant!


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Don't look too hard at the getters, and they can all be disguised as RCAs


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> Yes of course
> 
> I have a few GE JG-6100 6C4WA triple mica tubes that sound awesome. The sound is, dare I say it, better than some 6SN7's that I own.


Like these?  Got them in last week, just waiting on a couple 7 pin sockets to arrive so I can get an adapter put together for them.

Yeah, I know...I'll probably be banned from the forum for actually spending money on GE's, but these were cheap, it was a weak moment, I was bored, I was probably drunk and quite likely asleep too.


----------



## UntilThen

Don't be ashamed of GE, Mr Bcowen because even the legendary UntilThen proudly use a pair of GE 6EM7 grey plates in Destiny. I've just swapped from a Zenith 6AE7 black plates and am still trying to process the tonal difference. Not much that I can pin point easily.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Don't be ashamed of GE, Mr Bcowen because even the legendary UntilThen proudly use a pair of GE 6EM7 grey plates in Destiny. I've just swapped from a Zenith 6AE7 black plates and am still trying to process the tonal difference. Not much that I can pin point easily.


Problem is that I have a reputation to uphold.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2021)

Bill, you may want to re-evaluate given your reputation.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Problem is that I have a reputation to uphold.



Yeah righttttttttttttt and I've to maintain focus when playing against this competitor.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yeah righttttttttttttt and I've to maintain focus when playing against this competitor.


Please quit taking pictures of my wife.  She might start to think you're stalking her.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Bill, you may want to re-evaluate given your reputation.


LOL!  I figured there are 2 possible outcomes:

1) They sound awesome, at which point I'd rub off any visible GE identification and claim they were some uber-unobtanium European rarity.
2) I don't like them, talk them up like they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, wait a week, and then resell them for twice what I paid.

Logical, no?


----------



## UntilThen

This is the 6as7 thread is it? Oh sorry I thought I was on Golf Anonymous. Mr Bcowen make sure you don't drive the cart into the lake with likes of such dames on the golf course. Remember your training - maintain focus even in the midst of extreme distractions.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> at which point I'd rub off any visible GE identification



You will not do such a thing. I've just got ourselves these T-Shirts for the golf course.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> You will not do such a thing. I've just got ourselves these T-Shirts for the golf course.


Oh, the horror.  The golf cart would _definitely_ end up in the lake just so I could use those to wipe off the mud afterwards.


----------



## UntilThen

Alright cheerio it's the start of my work day. Have a good GE day !


----------



## jonathan c

UntilThen said:


> You will not do such a thing. I've just got ourselves these T-Shirts for the golf course.


The ultimate @bcowen sartorial dilemma:  best colour / worst logo.......😃 / 🤮....


----------



## Ripper2860

He'll jump on and say it is Duke blue and not Tarheel blue.  We won't be falling for that, though -- will we?


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> He'll jump on and say it is Duke blue and not Tarheel blue.  We won't be falling for that, though -- will we?


It's the "_I can't decide what shade of blue I want to be_" blue. The wishy-washy, non-committal, boring, indecisive, and utterly 'meh' kind of blue. Weird that it's just like (most?) GE tubes, huh?


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> It's the "_I can't decide what shade of blue I want to be_" blue. The wishy-washy, non-committal, boring, indecisive, and utterly 'meh' kind of blue. Weird that it's just like (most?) GE tubes, huh?


Simply stated: blah blue...


----------



## gibosi

Well, I guess "blah beige" is my color. lol 

For the past couple weeks, I have been rolling through output tubes to see which ones go well with an Hungarian Tungsram PV200/600 rectifier and a pair of Holland-made EL42 installed as drivers. Most recently, a pair of Mullard 6080 were installed (which sounded great, by the way) but decided to replace them with a pair of Western Union 6AS7G. And I must say these sound great as well. 

But of course, as Western Union was the dominant telegraph company in the US for over a century, one should expect nothing less, yes? 



Well, I should probably point out the Western Union never made the 6AS7G. These were originally manufactured for Western Union by RCA.


----------



## Ripper2860

What's next?  Pony Express or Wells Fargo tubes??


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Skylab said:


> There are MOUNTAINS of the 6N13S/6H13C. You can easily buy them by the case of 100 for $1 a tube.



Where is that mountain, sir?


----------



## jonathan c

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Where is that mountain, sir?


I think of the John Lennon lyric: “got to be good looking ‘cause he’s so hard to see”...


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Where is that mountain, sir?


Yeah, ditto that.  I think that mountain has become more of a molehill over the last year or so.  I still see these pop up for $6 - $7 a tube (plus shipping) which is still pretty cheap, but certainly not $1 a tube.

https://ussr-tubes.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=241

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193407024380?hash=item2d07f4fcfc:g:GDAAAOSw2T9ehcJY


----------



## tubebuyer2020

bcowen said:


> Yeah, ditto that.  I think that mountain has become more of a molehill over the last year or so.  I still see these pop up for $6 - $7 a tube (plus shipping) which is still pretty cheap, but certainly not $1 a tube.
> 
> https://ussr-tubes.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=241
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/193407024380?hash=item2d07f4fcfc:g:GDAAAOSw2T9ehcJY



To be honest original post was from 2017, so maybe I was not entirely fair here. I presume some of the amp manufacturers stocked up on these heavily.
Isn't it a bit interesting that even Shuguang ones are not exactly cheap as you would have expected?

When it comes to Russian ones do you look for specific years like with Fotons or any 6N13/6N5 is sort of OK?


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> To be honest original post was from 2017, so maybe I was not entirely fair here. I presume some of the amp manufacturers stocked up on these heavily.
> Isn't it a bit interesting that even Shuguang ones are not exactly cheap as you would have expected?
> 
> When it comes to Russian ones do you look for specific years like with Fotons or any 6N13/6N5 is sort of OK?


I don't have a lot of experience with these Russkies as I only have a couple pair.  From what I understand though, any of the 1950's manufacture are preferable to later years.    @Paladin79 might be able to chime in with some more useful information as I believe he has quite a bit more experience with them.


----------



## gibosi

Some folks think the older 6N5, from the 1950's, are best, but to my old ears, I don't know that I can tell the difference. That said, I always try to buy the oldest ones I can find. lol


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 13, 2021)

I like owning tubes and cameras that are older than me.  Makes me feel young!!    

** Let's see if @bcowen can pass on this nice 'lob' post.


----------



## Paladin79 (May 13, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I don't have a lot of experience with these Russkies as I only have a couple pair.  From what I understand though, any of the 1950's manufacture are preferable to later years.    @Paladin79 might be able to chime in with some more useful information as I believe he has quite a bit more experience with them.


My Russian contacts tell me there is no difference in the tubes as far as 6n5 or 6n13 but I believe the 6n5 is the older of the tube numbers. I just got some NOS from 1959 and  like the sound just a bit better, I try to hang onto those. I include newer winged C's with my amps along with Foton tubes as a rule because I can still find plenty of them.  It may be anticipation bias when I get Winged C's from the mid fifties  and I doubt I could tell one from another in blind tests.  

 A newer winged C will go out with a loaner amp tomorrow, I am also including a GE 5998A, a Tung Sol black glass round plate, a Melz 1578, and a 50's Foton.

Oh yeah some of the fifties winged C's have a square getter holder with a round center, not the normal flying saucer shape.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I like owning tubes and cameras that are older than me...
> 
> ** Let's see if @bcowen can pass on this nice 'lob' post.


Which would be like....none of them?

Nope, couldn't pass.


----------



## Dogmatrix

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Where is that mountain, sir?


----------



## CADCAM

Question...I have a CEI 6080 tube that I love the sound of. Thick, meaty bass, separated and textured highs and mids...just great sounding but it has a slight whine coming from the left channel. It's enough to shut down a listening session. Some have talked about reheating the pins, can anyone give a little instruction or direct me to where I can learn more about this? I'd love to save this tube if possible. Also welcome any other ideas. Listening to it now with some Jean Luc Ponty and it does sound glorious at times. I have cleaned the pins with some emery paper. Any ideas or trash it?


----------



## Paladin79

If you have a soldering iron I would try adding some solder to the center of the pins as you touch the iron to the outside of each pin. Make sure the solder flows a bit inside each pin, clean off any excess and try that. If it does not help I will give some in depth advice.


----------



## bcowen

CADCAM said:


> Question...I have a CEI 6080 tube that I love the sound of. Thick, meaty bass, separated and textured highs and mids...just great sounding but it has a slight whine coming from the left channel. It's enough to shut down a listening session. Some have talked about reheating the pins, can anyone give a little instruction or direct me to where I can learn more about this? I'd love to save this tube if possible. Also welcome any other ideas. Listening to it now with some Jean Luc Ponty and it does sound glorious at times. I have cleaned the pins with some emery paper. Any ideas or trash it?


When was the last time you cleaned the tube _socket_?  Easy to do as a first measure.  If no help after that, then resoldering the pins as @Paladin79 noted would be the next step.


----------



## CADCAM

bcowen said:


> When was the last time you cleaned the tube _socket_?  Easy to do as a first measure.  If no help after that, then resoldering the pins as @Paladin79 noted would be the next step.


Amp is relatively new but I have been rolling a bunch of different tubes in it. I've cleaned the tube pins but not the socket. Is there a kit for cleaning the socket or a home remedy? never cleaned a tube socket tbh.


----------



## bcowen

CADCAM said:


> Amp is relatively new but I have been rolling a bunch of different tubes in it. I've cleaned the tube pins but not the socket. Is there a kit for cleaning the socket or a home remedy? never cleaned a tube socket tbh.


For an octal socket, good old fashioned pipe cleaners and plain isopropyl alcohol (but not rubbing alcohol) work well for me.  Just moisten the end of the pipe cleaner and rub up and down inside each contact hole.  Cut the pipe cleaners in half or thirds to economize if you wish -- you'll only be using the tip of it.  Obviously be sure the amp is off (and preferably unplugged), and best to wait 15 minutes or so after turning it off to make sure capacitors are discharged.  Depending on how dirty the contacts are, you might need to repeat until the tip of the pipe cleaner comes out mostly clean looking.

Just an example...smaller quantities are available:
https://www.amazon.com/Mantello-Pip...keywords=pipe+cleaners&qid=1621044707&sr=8-11


----------



## Velozity

CADCAM said:


> Amp is relatively new but I have been rolling a bunch of different tubes in it. I've cleaned the tube pins but not the socket. Is there a kit for cleaning the socket or a home remedy? never cleaned a tube socket tbh.




Spray a small amount of contact cleaner or Deoxit on a pipe cleaner and go to town.  I have these:


----------



## donpablo

Anyone knows where to buy *GEC A1834* with 'normal' price?


----------



## donpablo

UntilThen said:


> Not all GEs are bad but then all 5691 are made by RCA regardless and are rebranded other names, in this case GE.
> 
> A word from the sponsor..
> _The RCA "Special Red" tubes (5690, 5691, 5692, 5693) were designed for 10,000 hours of use when used within their ratings. RCA claimed the 5691 tube could withstand shocks of 100 G's for extended periods of time!_
> ...


Can this be used instead 6as7/6080?


----------



## bcowen

donpablo said:


> Can this be used instead 6as7/6080?


Are you asking if a 6AS7 or 6080 can be used in place of an A1834?  Yes, they can.


----------



## donpablo

@bcowen I have OTL tube amp based on 6n13s/6as7g/6080 and Im asking about this mentioned red based tube, wheter I can use it in my amp or not:
-> "The 5691 Red Base tube is a premium low noise version of the 6SL7-GT tube which I will be using in Odyssey as a single double triode driver."


----------



## bcowen

donpablo said:


> @bcowen I have OTL tube amp based on 6n13s/6as7g/6080 and Im asking about this mentioned red based tube, wheter I can use it in my amp or not:
> -> "The 5691 Red Base tube is a premium low noise version of the 6SL7-GT tube which I will be using in Odyssey as a single double triode driver."


The 5691 is *NOT* a sub for a 6n13S/6AS7/6080.  The 5691 / 6SL7 is typically used as a driver tube...it is not a power tube such as those in the 6AS7 family.


----------



## attmci

donpablo said:


> Anyone knows where to buy *GEC A1834* with 'normal' price?


What do you mean normal price? Market price?

I found it's much more difficult to find new in box tubes now. Good luck in tube hunting.


----------



## UntilThen

donpablo said:


> @bcowen I have OTL tube amp based on 6n13s/6as7g/6080 and Im asking about this mentioned red based tube, wheter I can use it in my amp or not:
> -> "The 5691 Red Base tube is a premium low noise version of the 6SL7-GT tube which I will be using in Odyssey as a single double triode driver."


What OTL amp do you have? What are the driver tubes used in it now?


----------



## Dogmatrix

Forgive my small excursion off topic , I have been hunting rectifiers lately for a new 6as7 amp that is in the works 
Hands up anyone who can see the problem with this listing

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/184843246443?hash=item2b09841b6b:g:V48AAOSwXV9gorjZ&frcectupt=true


----------



## bcowen

Dogmatrix said:


> Forgive my small excursion off topic , I have been hunting rectifiers lately for a new 6as7 amp that is in the works
> Hands up anyone who can see the problem with this listing
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/184843246443?hash=item2b09841b6b:g:V48AAOSwXV9gorjZ&frcectupt=true


LOL!  I bet it has a very airy sound.


----------



## UntilThen

Dogmatrix said:


> Forgive my small excursion off topic , I have been hunting rectifiers lately for a new 6as7 amp that is in the works
> Hands up anyone who can see the problem with this listing
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/184843246443?hash=item2b09841b6b:g:V48AAOSwXV9gorjZ&frcectupt=true


That listing is gone. Just find a Mullard GZ34 f32 or f33. It could be rebranded other names but that’s ok.

I had a chance to try out the GZ34 metal base for a week and I could not detect any difference with my Sittard GZ34.


----------



## Ripper2860

I messaged the seller.  I didn't want anyone buying a tube with missing pins.   



** Just kidding.  I gave him a tip on what the flashing is supposed to look like.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> That listing is gone. Just find a Mullard GZ34 f32 or f33. It could be rebranded other names but that’s ok.
> 
> I had a chance to try out the GZ34 metal base for a week and I could not detect any difference with my Sittard GZ34.


Here you go (from that listing):


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Here you go (from that listing):



I suspect that not everyone here knows that when you see a tube where the silvered getter splash has turned white, the tube is defective. That is, the glass is cracked and it's no longer a "vacuum" tube. The tube is now, shall we say, an "air" tube. lol


----------



## Dogmatrix

UntilThen said:


> That listing is gone. Just find a Mullard GZ34 f32 or f33. It could be rebranded other names but that’s ok.
> 
> I had a chance to try out the GZ34 metal base for a week and I could not detect any difference with my Sittard GZ34.


Interesting the metal base is not a revelation it should be for the prices being asked . I did find a nice NOS NIB Valvo branded f32 its coming from Germany where the shipping costs are still reasonable . 
So no need to hunt for the rare Snow Top Gz34


----------



## gibosi

Dogmatrix said:


> Interesting the metal base is not a revelation it should be for the prices being asked . I did find a nice NOS NIB Valvo branded f32 its coming from Germany where the shipping costs are still reasonable .
> So no need to hunt for the rare Snow Top Gz34



Valvo never made the GZ34. So it is necessary to look more closely at the production code to determine the factory.

For example, I have in front of me a tube manufactured by Philips in Sittard, Holland:

f30 X7L

f3 = GZ34
0 = revision code
X = factory, ie, Sittard
7L = 1957, L = December

A tube manufactured by Mullard sounds different than one manufactured by MBLE (Belgium Mada) and different than one manufactured by Philips in Sittard, Holland. And a "f32" tube could have been manufactured in any of these factories.


----------



## UntilThen (May 17, 2021)

I have with me a GZ34 metal base, a Sittard GZ34 Made in Holland, a Mullard branded GZ34 f33 Made in Belgium.

I used to have two Mullard GZ34 f32 Blackburn but sold that off with Studio Six.

The first 3 I have in two nearly identical 300b amps but with different power tubes. So it’s hard to access differences due to rectifiers. I do know that they all contribute to the good sound I’m getting from my LCD4.

Someday when I have more time, I will roll all 3 GZ34 in for a control assessments.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Someday when I have more time, I will roll all 3 GZ34 in for a control assessments.


Tomorrow will be fine.  Don't rush.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Tomorrow will be fine.  Don't rush.


I am  thinking probably after next year’s US Masters Open? Remember I am aiming for the Green Jacket.


----------



## attmci

Dogmatrix said:


> Forgive my small excursion off topic , I have been hunting rectifiers lately for a new 6as7 amp that is in the works
> Hands up anyone who can see the problem with this listing
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/184843246443?hash=item2b09841b6b:g:V48AAOSwXV9gorjZ&frcectupt=true


VALVE IS UNTESTED BUT THEY COME FROM A FRIEND WHO'S DAD WAS A RADIO HAM AND MOST HAD A LITTLE STICKER ON THEM WITH THE VALVES ID AND A LITTLE TICK. WHICH I ASSUME MEANT THAT IT WORKED.

LOL


----------



## maxpudding

Dogmatrix said:


> Forgive my small excursion off topic , I have been hunting rectifiers lately for a new 6as7 amp that is in the works
> Hands up anyone who can see the problem with this listing
> 
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/184843246443?hash=item2b09841b6b:g:V48AAOSwXV9gorjZ&frcectupt=true



ROFLMAO


----------



## Skylab

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Where is that mountain, sir?





tubebuyer2020 said:


> To be honest original post was from 2017, so maybe I was not entirely fair here. I presume some of the amp manufacturers stocked up on these heavily.
> Isn't it a bit interesting that even Shuguang ones are not exactly cheap as you would have expected?
> 
> When it comes to Russian ones do you look for specific years like with Fotons or any 6N13/6N5 is sort of OK?



Indeed, while they are still quite widely available, seems the price has increased quite a bit in the last 4 years, to around $15/tube.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273312455235?hash=item3fa2b11a43:g:JC0AAOSwgZ5cW~fG


----------



## CADCAM

I had a couple of my favorite power tubes get noisy and found the culprit to be one of my driver tubes. Is this a common occurrence with tube amps? I spent a lot of time switching out power tubes only to find it was the drivers...


----------



## gibosi (May 19, 2021)

CADCAM said:


> I had a couple of my favorite power tubes get noisy and found the culprit to be one of my driver tubes. Is this a common occurrence with tube amps? I spent a lot of time switching out power tubes only to find it was the drivers...



It can be very hard to track down noise issues in a tube amp. And be very happy you don't have a tube rectifier.


----------



## UntilThen

Fortunately all my tubes are quiet. The ones that are noisy I send to Bcowen.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Fortunately all my tubes are quiet. The ones that are noisy I send to Bcowen.


And I then resolder the pins and they are quiet as a church mouse.  I have a growing collection of really expensive tubes that were free, which is why I don't complain too much about the $1.50/hr you pay me to drive your cart or decide which putter to hand you at the tee.


----------



## rlawry (May 19, 2021)

Hi, I am a newbie to this forum but have been using tube equipment for over 40 years.  I have a question about using a 2x 6BL7 to 6AS7G adapter from China.  Recently I bought the following tube headphone DAC/amplifier:  XZ-Audio U202 Home Audio Tube Headphone Amplifier/Pre-amplifier Input USB/AUX/RCA DAC Audio Decoder.

The amplifier uses 2 driver tubes and a single 6N5P (6AS7 type) tube in the output stage, as a cathode follower I believe. So the right channel uses 1/2 of the 6N5P tube and the left channel uses 1/2 of the 6N5P tube. I wanted to use 2 of the 6BL7 tubes to replace the single 6N5P tube. Can I use the 6BL7 to 6AS7 tube converter adapter for this purpose? The amplifier manufacturer said it would handle the increased heater current demand.

Does anyone know whether it is possible to use this adapter in my particular headphone amp?  I saw an old post on the 6BL7 forum that it may not be possible to use the adapter but it is OK to use a single 6BL7 in the 6AS7G tube socket.

Thank you for all the great info on this forum.

Roger


----------



## UntilThen

For WA22 and Feliks Audio Elise and Eudora, I have used 2 x 6BL7 with adapters in both the power tubes slot.

It’s a great tone.

I believe you can do that on your amp but do so at your own calculated risk.


----------



## maxpudding (May 20, 2021)

rlawry said:


> Hi, I am a newbie to this forum but have been using tube equipment for over 40 years.  I have a question about using a 2x 6BL7 to 6AS7G adapter from China.  Recently I bought the following tube headphone DAC/amplifier:  XZ-Audio U202 Home Audio Tube Headphone Amplifier/Pre-amplifier Input USB/AUX/RCA DAC Audio Decoder.
> 
> The amplifier uses 2 driver tubes and a single 6N5P (6AS7 type) tube in the output stage, as a cathode follower I believe. So the right channel uses 1/2 of the 6N5P tube and the left channel uses 1/2 of the 6N5P tube. I wanted to use 2 of the 6BL7 tubes to replace the single 6N5P tube. Can I use the 6BL7 to 6AS7 tube converter adapter for this purpose? The amplifier manufacturer said it would handle the increased heater current demand.
> 
> ...



I agree with @UntilThen, as long as the manufacturer said that the amp would handle the heater current demand from the 6BL7, then, in theory, it should work, but there's always the risk involved. You can try with a single tube, and if that works, then most probably a dual configuration should work too.

Looking at some photos of the amp, it looks like the adapter would be sitting very close to the driver tubes  hopefully the size of the adapter won't be a problem


----------



## donpablo

UntilThen said:


> What OTL amp do you have? What are the driver tubes used in it now?


Currently 6AS7G RCA NOS (USA) and 6080 with BWB 848 label.


----------



## UntilThen

For the best 6BL7 or 6BX7 experience, you need to get the Glenn OTL amp that can use up to 6 x 6BL7 tubes. I had so much fun and enjoyment with this amp for close to 2 years. You have to listen to this setup to know what sextet 6BX7 or 6BL7 can do. I still miss it to this day.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

UntilThen said:


> For the best 6BL7 or 6BX7 experience, you need to get the Glenn OTL amp that can use up to 6 x 6BL7 tubes. I had so much fun and enjoyment with this amp for close to 2 years. You have to listen to this setup to know what sextet 6BX7 or 6BL7 can do. I still miss it to this day.


This is a beautiful amp.

Your current amps all sound like books in a fantasy book series or video games:

Assassins Creed Odyssey
Destiny
Elder Scrolls IV - Oblivion

Who makes these fabled amps?


----------



## CADCAM

Found this on fleabay any opinions? 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174654649631?hash=item28aa3a751f:g:qfkAAOSwMM9a~7iq


----------



## gibosi

CADCAM said:


> Found this on fleabay any opinions?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/174654649631?hash=item28aa3a751f:g:qfkAAOSwMM9a~7iq



I dont' have these but others speak highly of them and the price is right. I just might get myself a pair too. lol


----------



## UntilThen

PsilocybinCube said:


> This is a beautiful amp.
> 
> Your current amps all sound like books in a fantasy book series or video games:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliment. I love tube amps for the way they make my headphones sound. The bonus is also the visuals. I still have the Woo Audio Wa22 which imo is also a lovely looking amp. There was a ALO Audio Studio Six which is very elegant looking. 

Oblivion is a chance encounter when the amp builder contacted me to do a review. I am not even a reviewer but I did splash a few lines about it and it end up with me. It's made by Ultrasonic Studios.

I gave the name Destiny to the 300b amp that Eric of McChanson amps made for me. It's gold in colour ! This is just about one month old and I love it aaaaaaaa lot with LCD4.

Odyssey is my sign on name in my country audio forum and was chosen because it will likely be the end of the audio journey for me. From then on it will just be listening to music. It's a SET amp that will take KT88, EL34, 6550, EL12 spez, 807, EL39, KT150, EL156,  etc. This is still in the workshop being made by Ultrasonic Studios using old school design principles.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

CADCAM said:


> Found this on fleabay any opinions?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/174654649631?hash=item28aa3a751f:g:qfkAAOSwMM9a~7iq


I'd recommend purchasing this domestically and for a lower price.  There are loads of these things floating around.  Moreover, some OTL amp users (BHC users) have been reporting issues with some of them coming from China.


----------



## LoryWiv

CADCAM said:


> Found this on fleabay any opinions?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/174654649631?hash=item28aa3a751f:g:qfkAAOSwMM9a~7iq


I had and sold a pair of Thomson 6080's, very good especially at that price point but no match for GEC and the like.


----------



## rlawry

Thanks to all who responded to my question about using a Chinese 2-to-1 6BL7 to 6AS7 adapter in my XZ Audio headphone amp. The lady in China who makes these adapters thought my amp which uses a single 6N5P tube as a cathode follower in the output stage could not use such an adapter and I agree with the person who thought the adapter would not fit anyway due to its closeness to the 2 driver tubes.  So I will try a single 6BL7 tube and perhaps later a 6BX7 as a replacement for the 6N5P.  It certainly is enticing to try these relatively inexpensive and plentiful alternatives to the increasingly pricy and rare 6AS7 type replacements such as the WE 421A, T-S 5998, GEC 6AS7, Bendix 6080, T-S 7236, and others.

On that note, I can report that I did try a Bendix 6080 tube relabeled as a Raytheon 6080WC, the one with the solid graphite column plates with the rectangular-shaped columns.  BTW, getting this tube into the tube socket was a ^&%@#&*!.  Apparently I need to improve my regular workouts.   Early results indicate there was an improvement mainly in bass and dynamics over the stock Chinese 6N5P as one would expect, especially in bass extension/tightness and overall dynamics but not to the level that I expected. Maybe either my amp and/or phones (Master & Dynamic MH40 and 1More Triple-Driver Over-Ear) are not that resolving or the NOS tube is still breaking in.  Or maybe I am getting too old to effectively hear such differences, lol.  Anyway, that is my report FWIW.

The amp uses 2 Chinese 6N3P driver tubes and I am awaiting a pair of Tesla D-Getter 6CC42 tubes which I hope makes a bigger difference sonically than the output tube swap. According to a Head-Fi thread on 5670-type tubes, this Tesla tube is one of the better replacements and were inexpensive on Ebay.  I will report results once I get a chance to hear them.

Love this hobby and glad I recently discovered Head-Fi.


----------



## Galapac

rlawry said:


> I can report that I did try a Bendix 6080 tube relabeled as a Raytheon 6080WC, the one with the solid graphite column plates with the rectangular-shaped columns.


As far as I know Bendix never made tubes for other manufacturers.  They destroyed all of their proprietary equipment when they shut down their tube division. 
This was from a book by a person who worked at the Red Bank facility.
Tung-Sol and Hytron made copies of their design.
Do you have a picture of your tube?


----------



## rlawry (May 21, 2021)

Here is the Raytheon 6080WC tube.  It definitely has the solid graphite cross-shaped plates, ceramic spacers, and Bendix-type construction along with the thick glass tube and heavy weight.   I am not sure why the picture is so blurred as it is not on my laptop but I think you can get a general idea of the construction.

I have read posts in this thread up through about page 260 so far and numerous posts indicate that all of these graphite plate tubes were manufactured by Bendix in their US Red Bank facility, so I am not sure about the claim that other tube manufacturers such as Tung-Sol and Raytheon each licensed/manufactured their own versions, conversely sourcing these tubes intended for missles and other heavy-duty applications and relabeled them.  Maybe some others can chime in here.  It would be good to know this information.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

rlawry said:


> Here is the Raytheon 6080WC tube.  It definitely has the solid graphite cross-shaped plates, ceramic spacers, and Bendix-type construction along with the thick glass tube and heavy weight.   I am not sure why the picture is so blurred as it is not on my laptop but I think you can get a general idea of the construction.
> 
> I have read posts in this thread up through about page 260 so far and numerous posts indicate that all of these graphite plate tubes were manufactured by Bendix in their US Red Bank facility, so I am not sure about the claim that other tube manufacturers such as Tung-Sol and Raytheon each licensed/manufactured their own versions, conversely sourcing these tubes intended for missles and other heavy-duty applications and relabeled them.  Maybe some others can chime in here.  It would be good to know this information.


Pic is only 1.2 kb...anything with a bigger file size you could upload?


----------



## rlawry

For some reason the Ebay picture I tried to attach would not post in a high resolution photo so I took a picture of the Raytheon 6080WC tube sitting in my XZ Audio amp.  This should give a much better idea of the construction of this tube, certainly Bendix-made.


----------



## UntilThen

Your Raytheon 6080wc does look robust in build. I once had a pair of newish looking Chatham 6080wb and a pair of Bendix 6080wb slotted graphic plates. They are similar in sound but I could detect that the Chatham is not as bass weighted heavy as the Bendix. Perhaps the Chatham is newer and not quite as burn in but who knows. I never did bother to find out how that Chatham 6080wb came about. I don't think Chatham make it. I like it but eventually I sold it but kept the Bendix.

This is a picture taken a few years ago. I still have all the power tubes for my Wa22 but I've since sold off the Gec 6as7g (2nd from left) and Cetron 6336b (right). Should have kept the Gec 6as7g because I bought it NOS NIB from Stavros but oh well it's US $500 .... so I let it go and now it's worth much more.   

I'm on to other tubes now. 300b, KT88, KT66, KT77, 6550, EL34, etc. I've often wondered why there's no thread for these tubes. Could someone start one please?


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> Your Raytheon 6080wc does look robust in build. I once had a pair of newish looking Chatham 6080wb and a pair of Bendix 6080wb slotted graphic plates. They are similar in sound but I could detect that the Chatham is not as bass weighted heavy as the Bendix. Perhaps the Chatham is newer and not quite as burn in but who knows. I never did bother to find out how that Chatham 6080wb came about. I don't think Chatham make it. I like it but eventually I sold it but kept the Bendix.
> 
> This is a picture taken a few years ago. I still have all the power tubes for my Wa22 but I've since sold off the Gec 6as7g (2nd from left) and Cetron 6336b (right). Should have kept the Gec 6as7g because I bought it NOS NIB from Stavros but oh well it's US $500 .... so I let it go and now it's worth much more.
> 
> I'm on to other tubes now. 300b, KT88, KT66, KT77, 6550, EL34, etc. I've often wondered why there's no thread for these tubes. Could someone start one please?


See you got the Tung Sol 5998, Probably the best out there 👍


----------



## skhan007

LoryWiv said:


> I had and sold a pair of Thomson 6080's, very good especially at that price point but no match for GEC and the like.


Truth!! Love my GEC and so glad I found a pair for purchase.


----------



## gibosi

Galapac said:


> As far as I know Bendix never made tubes for other manufacturers.  They destroyed all of their proprietary equipment when they shut down their tube division.
> This was from a book by a person who worked at the Red Bank facility.
> Tung-Sol and Hytron made copies of their design.
> Do you have a picture of your tube?



This might be a matter of semantics. I can believe that Bendix did not custom build tubes for other manufacturers. But if Raytheon or Chatham ordered several thousand and then resold them as their own, this is not at all unreasonable.


----------



## UntilThen (May 21, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> See you got the Tung Sol 5998, Probably the best out there 👍



This pair of Tung Sol 5998 that I have is precious to me. No noise, tight base. I bought it new from Vietnam 4 years ago, brand new, for US$238. Seller told me it's surplus stock when the US military withdraw with the fall of Saigon. It came to me in a tupperware box, wrapped in newspaper but the packaging was bullet proof.

To this day, I still marvel at the condition. It's so new and so quiet. This pair stays with me even though I don't use my Wa22 at all now. It's a backup amp. 

The best out there is debatable. The Gec 6as7g is even more 'new' but sigh I sold it.


----------



## LoryWiv

skhan007 said:


> Truth!! Love my GEC and so glad I found a pair for purchase.


What is the classy looking amp., sir?


----------



## UntilThen

LoryWiv said:


> What is the classy looking amp., sir?


A Sennheiser HE1 in miniature form.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

UntilThen said:


> Your Raytheon 6080wc does look robust in build. I once had a pair of newish looking Chatham 6080wb and a pair of Bendix 6080wb slotted graphic plates. They are similar in sound but I could detect that the Chatham is not as bass weighted heavy as the Bendix. Perhaps the Chatham is newer and not quite as burn in but who knows. I never did bother to find out how that Chatham 6080wb came about. I don't think Chatham make it. I like it but eventually I sold it but kept the Bendix.
> 
> This is a picture taken a few years ago. I still have all the power tubes for my Wa22 but I've since sold off the Gec 6as7g (2nd from left) and Cetron 6336b (right). Should have kept the Gec 6as7g because I bought it NOS NIB from Stavros but oh well it's US $500 .... so I let it go and now it's worth much more.
> 
> I'm on to other tubes now. 300b, KT88, KT66, KT77, 6550, EL34, etc. I've often wondered why there's no thread for these tubes. Could someone start one please?



That GEC 6AS7G is so pleasing aesthetically. I also had one, NOS, and foolishly sent it back thinking it was microphonic. In retrospect, I think it was the combo of my amp and that tube.  

Here are two great alternatives to the 5998. The 6520 is warmer sounding and is my favorite currently.


----------



## Dogmatrix

gibosi said:


> This might be a matter of semantics. I can believe that Bendix did not custom build tubes for other manufacturers. But if Raytheon or Chatham ordered several thousand and then resold them as their own, this is not at all unreasonable.


Makes sense since Raytheon where and are still heavily invested in the guided missile business though I don't think they use tubes in them any more


----------



## UntilThen

CaptainFantastic said:


> Here are two great alternatives to the 5998. The 6520 is warmer sounding and is my favorite currently.



I think the only tube I didn't dip my toes in is the WE421A. As I have move on to other tube types, I don't think I will chase it now.

I have always thought that the 6520 dimple face is the same as a Tung Sol 5998 dimple face.... unless someone can verify it.


----------



## gibosi

UntilThen said:


> I think the only tube I didn't dip my toes in is the WE421A. As I have move on to other tube types, I don't think I will chase it now.
> 
> I have always thought that the 6520 dimple face is the same as a Tung Sol 5998 dimple face.... unless someone can verify it.



Yes, the 6520 and 5998 with domino plates are the same tube. However, the real 6520 looks identical to the TS 6AS7G. However, if you check the data sheets, the 6520 has balanced triodes and its been tweaked in other ways . While I don't have one of these, people whose ears I trust tell me that it does sound different than the ordinary TS 6AS7, and better. 

https://tube-data.com/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf


----------



## skhan007

LoryWiv said:


> What is the classy looking amp., sir?





UntilThen said:


> A Sennheiser HE1 in miniature form.


It’s the Bottlehead Crack hard rock edition.


----------



## rlawry

Agreed, that is a great-looking amp.


----------



## maxpudding

skhan007 said:


> It’s the Bottlehead Crack hard rock edition.



That’s a fine looking crack, is that a ceramic chassis? Or granite?


----------



## JTbbb

skhan007 said:


> Truth!! Love my GEC and so glad I found a pair for purchase.



So pleased you are enjoying them! I have a few more 6sn7’s and 6as7’s to part with before I get down to my preferred 5 pairs of each. So damn difficult to choose which!


----------



## JTbbb (May 22, 2021)

CaptainFantastic said:


> That GEC 6AS7G is so pleasing aesthetically. I also had one, NOS, and foolishly sent it back thinking it was microphonic. In retrospect, I think it was the combo of my amp and that tube.
> 
> Here are two great alternatives to the 5998. The 6520 is warmer sounding and is my favorite currently.



I snagged these a month or so back, and I’m keeping them 😀


----------



## skhan007

rlawry said:


> Agreed, that is a great-looking amp.





maxpudding said:


> That’s a fine looking crack, is that a ceramic chassis? Or granite?


Thank you! It’s granite. I love the look and functionally, it dampens all vibration.


JTbbb said:


> So pleased you are enjoying them! I have a few more 6sn7’s and 6as7’s to part with before I get down to my preferred 5 pairs of each. So damn difficult to choose which!


Thanks!! Very happy with the GEC’s indeed. So much so that I don’t feel inclined to seek out any other power tubes.


----------



## HTSkywalker (May 22, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> This pair of Tung Sol 5998 that I have is precious to me. No noise, tight base. I bought it new from Vietnam 4 years ago, brand new, for US$238. Seller told me it's surplus stock when the US military withdraw with the fall of Saigon. It came to me in a tupperware box, wrapped in newspaper but the packaging was bullet proof.
> 
> To this day, I still marvel at the condition. It's so new and so quiet. This pair stays with me even though I don't use my Wa22 at all now. It's a backup amp.
> 
> The best out there is debatable. The Gec 6as7g is even more 'new' but sigh I sold it.


And may I ask which amp you moved to ? is it the BHC ? and do you consider it a step up from the WOO
Quite a catch with the TS 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> A Sennheiser HE1 in miniature form.


Or a handsome granite based BHC 😍


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> And may I ask which amp you moved to ? is it the BHC ? and do you consider it a step up from the WOO
> Quite a catch with the TS 👍



I've move to Starsky and Hutch.... I mean Oblivion and Destiny..... and Odyssey is coming. The latter is a custom KT88 set amp.


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> and do you consider it a step up from the WOO



A step up in every way especially the light glow.


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry I'm having a hang over from Bcowen toxic wine. When my head is clear I'll try and articulate why I think a 300b amp and a parafeed design amp that uses cheap tubes sound better than the Woo.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> I've move to Starsky and Hutch.... I mean Oblivion and Destiny..... and Odyssey is coming. The latter is a custom KT88 set amp.


Sweet!  

What's the little box of Schiit on the bottom?  An EITR?  Can't quite make it out....


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Sorry I'm having a hang over from Bcowen toxic wine. When my head is clear I'll try and articulate why I think a 300b amp and a parafeed design amp that uses cheap tubes sound better than the Woo.


You + 'cheap tubes' = oxymoron.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> Sweet!
> 
> What's the little box of Schiit on the bottom?  An EITR?  Can't quite make it out....



That's the schiit eater .... eats up all the schiit so there's no schiit left.


----------



## UntilThen

bcowen said:


> You + 'cheap tubes' = oxymoron.



Oh well I can't use Oxymoron now because I gave the name to @Zachik for his next Pulchritudinous amp.
​


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Oh well I can't use Oxymoron now because I gave the name to @Zachik for his next Pulchritudinous amp.
> ​


Will Pulchritudinous be an SET using real triodes, or an imposter using pentodes wired as triodes?


----------



## UntilThen (May 22, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Will Pulchritudinous be an SET using real triodes, or an imposter using pentodes wired as triodes?



Well I promise Zachik I'll say nothing but it's a state of the art design using direct heated triodes. That's all I am allowed to say. My initial name suggestion to him is Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' but he wouldn't have it.

What's wrong with Paranoid? One of the all time great classic rock ! @OctavianH  this one for you !


----------



## Galapac

Description says Sylvania 6080. Amperex boxes. GE acid etch gives them away...😂

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224468353141?hash=item34435b4075:g:gKcAAOSwtbNgpm4O


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Well I promise Zachik I'll say nothing but it's a state of the art design using direct heated triodes. That's all I am allowed to say. My initial name suggestion to him is Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' but he wouldn't have it.
> 
> What's wrong with Paranoid? One of the all time great classic rock ! @OctavianH  this one for you !


I like Paranoid much better than Hemorrhoid, if that helps.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

What about Raytheon 6080 - any good?


----------



## UntilThen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> What about Raytheon 6080 - any good?



Nope. You want these. They are the real honey.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265087660223?hash=item3db874b0bf:g:DAAAAOSw34Jf~AnJ&frcectupt=true


----------



## UntilThen

And when you're done with that, buy this.
https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/products/jan-7236-cetron-nos-1983-p15

and that's it. and move on to a 300b amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> I've move to Starsky and Hutch.... I mean Oblivion and Destiny..... and Odyssey is coming. The latter is a custom KT88 set amp.


Some heavy stuff you got in their 👌👌


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> A step up in every way especially the light glow.


As beautiful as a Christmas tree, am sure it sounds as nice to you ears as Jingle bells too,
 see you are preamping


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> Sorry I'm having a hang over from Bcowen toxic wine. When my head is clear I'll try and articulate why I think a 300b amp and a parafeed design amp that uses cheap tubes sound better than the Woo.


Am sure the carboard boxed wine 🤣🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> And when you're done with that, buy this.
> https://tubeworldexpress.com/collections/power-tubes/products/jan-7236-cetron-nos-1983-p15
> 
> and that's it. and move on to a 300b amp.


Do you have a positive experience with this seller ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> That's the schiit eater .... eats up all the schiit so there's no schiit left* or right *


Corrected


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> Well I promise Zachik I'll say nothing but it's a state of the art design using direct heated triodes. That's all I am allowed to say. My initial name suggestion to him is Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' but he wouldn't have it.
> 
> What's wrong with Paranoid? One of the all time great classic rock ! @OctavianH  this one for you !



@bcowen is more into the inmate-to-be Marilyn Manson 😂😂


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> Do you have a positive experience with this seller ?


Yes. I bought a pair of Cetron 7236 from him and it’s as new as what you see in the picture. Tubes are solid, Humphrey and sound amazing.


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> As beautiful as a Christmas tree, am sure it sounds as nice to you ears as Jingle bells too,
> see you are preamping


I ain’t preamping. There’s no preamp there though I wouldn’t mind a Schiit Freya +. Guess Jason will love me if I get more Schiit.

Yggdrasil outputs to both my tube amps and has provision for one more ... Odyssey.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Yes. I bought a pair of Cetron 7236 from him and it’s as new as what you see in the picture. Tubes are solid, Humphrey and sound amazing.


The Cetrons and the ST-bottle TungSol 6J5's are a really nice pairing in the DV, @HTSkywalker .


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I like Paranoid much better than Hemorrhoid, if that helps.


Just because my amp is paranoid, does not mean the tubes are not out to get it...


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Just because my amp is paranoid, does not mean the tubes are not out to get it...


LOL!  Then perhaps call it Zachinoid...it'll be unique and fear the tubes no longer.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> The Cetrons and the ST-bottle TungSol 6J5's are a really nice pairing in the DV, @HTSkywalker .


Your recommendation for the Raytheon 6SN7 T-Base was a solid one 👍👍
Search is on for both the Cetrons 7236 and TS 6J5 as the linked Cetron is labeled with base crack.


----------



## UntilThen

Bcowen I have to stop your pay for 6 months because I want this ... 

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/347884-fs-fs-supratek-sauvignon-preamplifier/


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> Bcowen I have to stop your pay for 6 months because I want this ...
> 
> https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/347884-fs-fs-supratek-sauvignon-preamplifier/


I've never heard a Supratek, but they seem to be quite highly regarded. Love the look!  Just ditch the Sovtek KT66's -- they blow chunks (and I _have_ heard those).  

Now about the pay:  it's been 8 years since I got a paycheck. What's 6 more months?  With backpay and interest, you'll owe me $47.95 next December.  USD please.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Then perhaps call it Zachinoid...it'll be unique and fear the tubes no longer.


Name is still TBD, although there is a strong contender (and couple 2nd runners)... Kudos to @UntilThen for not spilling the beans (per my request) 
I will provide updates at due time, on the 1101 thread (where it rightfully belong).


----------



## UntilThen

Right let's get back to topic.... I just realized this is the 6as7 thread. So here goes. This amp should not have been sold, like the Gec 6as7g and Gec B36. Still have the Gec 6080. What a relief.

What happens when you combine Gec B36, Gec 6080 and Gec 6as7g ?


----------



## UntilThen

How about we go cheap and use a Raytheon 6SN7gt black glass with 4 x Svetlana 6N13S.


----------



## UntilThen

Or how about we go expensive again with Sylvania 6SN7w metal base and 4 x Tung Sol 5998. In many ways, I regret selling some of my precious tubes and GOTL. The time and effort taken to collect the tubes then to let it go... must had too much whisky that day.


----------



## UntilThen

This is the one that surprised me at how well I can combined different tubes and yet get beautiful sonics. Mullard ECC33, Cetron 7236, Tung Sol 5998. I was even mad to let the Cetron 7236 and Mullard ECC33 go.


----------



## UntilThen

Oh well my time with 6as7 is over... I'll go and start a KT88 / EL34 / 6L6 / 6550 thread.


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> How about we go cheap and use a Raytheon 6SN7gt black glass with 4 x Svetlana 6N13S.


Cheap 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## UntilThen

HTSkywalker said:


> Cheap 🤣🤣🤣


It is cheap. How much does 4 x Svetlana 6N13S cost? About $40. I would have use 6 but GOTL can only take a max of 4 x 6as7 unless I order one with a bigger power transformer.


----------



## swissheadphonelover

UntilThen said:


> Yes. I bought a pair of Cetron 7236 from him and it’s as new as what you see in the picture. Tubes are solid, Humphrey and sound amazing.


Same experience with a pair of Cetron 7236 from him for my Feliks Euforia


----------



## HTSkywalker

UntilThen said:


> It is cheap. How much does 4 x Svetlana 6N13S cost? About $40. I would have use 6 but GOTL can only take a max of 4 x 6as7 unless I order one with a bigger power transformer.


That would be really cheap 👍


----------



## tubebuyer2020 (May 23, 2021)

UntilThen said:


> Nope. You want these. They are the real honey.
> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265087660223?hash=item3db874b0bf:g:DAAAAOSw34Jf~AnJ&frcectupt=true


That is a relatively good price - thank you. But back to the original question - has anyone here actually tried a non-rebranded Raytheon 6080?


----------



## gibosi

tubebuyer2020 said:


> That is a relatively good price - thank you. But back to the original question - has anyone here actually tried a non-rebranded Raytheon 6080?



I haven't, and also, I have not even seen a review. So I suggest that you pick up a pair and tell us what you think! OK?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

How are these readings to be interpreted? Are these strong testing, near NOS? (Note - I am not interested, I have a number of 5998s, just curious)

1. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124738033626 - TV-7 tested 68.68

2. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402758915971 - 
Tested with AVO MkIV
Triode1: Ia 51 mA
Triode2: Ia 55 mA


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> How are these readings to be interpreted? Are these strong testing, near NOS? (Note - I am not interested, I have a number of 5998s, just curious)
> 
> 1. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124738033626 - TV-7 tested 68.68
> 
> ...


Without either seller noting what the minimum or NOS values are on their testers, the test readings are totally worthless.  And with no mention of when their testers were last serviced or calibrated means that even *with* the minimum/NOS values, it's only a roll of the dice.  

Knowing a little about the TV-7, those values are not bad.  Not NOS, but still pretty strong.  Of course if his tester was last calibrated in 1962, then those numbers are nothing more than an approximation that could be off by 50% or more.  

Just my $0.02, FWIW.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> How are these readings to be interpreted? Are these strong testing, near NOS? (Note - I am not interested, I have a number of 5998s, just curious)
> 
> 1. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124738033626 - TV-7 tested 68.68
> 
> ...


This is far more representative of what *I* like to see, especially when buying expensive tubes:

1) Tester model used (this one a TV-7)
2) Calibration evidence shown. If Dan Nelson worked on it, it's good...he's one of the best in the biz with TV-7's (at least in the USA)
3) Actual test readings shown
4) Tester reference values shown, either NOS value or "minimum good" value.  Some testers use 'average' NOS values for their data charts, and some use minimum good values, which is typically 60% - 65% of the average NOS value.  Either one is fine, as long as it's shown!

If that info isn't provided, then I'm (personally) not going to pay big bucks for a tube.  If I can get an expensive tube for really cheap then I might take the gamble, but these are not going for cheap.    


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25497825...v=DefaultOrganic&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bcowen said:


> This is far more representative of what *I* like to see, especially when buying expensive tubes:
> 
> 1) Tester model used (this one a TV-7)
> 2) Calibration evidence shown. If Dan Nelson worked on it, it's good...he's one of the best in the biz with TV-7's (at least in the USA)
> ...



Wow, what a seller. To even say the base is tight, no loose particles...  

Thanks for the complete answer @bcowen .


----------



## tubebuyer2020

gibosi said:


> I haven't, and also, I have not even seen a review. So I suggest that you pick up a pair and tell us what you think! OK?



Yeah, might take one for the team...


----------



## tintinsnowydog (May 23, 2021)

CaptainFantastic said:


> How are these readings to be interpreted? Are these strong testing, near NOS? (Note - I am not interested, I have a number of 5998s, just curious)
> 
> 1. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124738033626 - TV-7 tested 68.68
> 
> ...


As for the 5998 results on the AVO MK IV, those results are a little lacking. The AVOs test both plate current and GM, so for starters the GM reading is missing. This is straight from the AVO data book:




Assuming the seller has used the parameters of the data book to test the 5998 tube, we would be expecting 90mA and 14mA/V GM for a NOS tube. Reject on the AVO is usually read as 50% on the meter. Based on the databook, this 5998 is testing 55% plate current, and almost a dead tube... but from experience, I know for a fact that the plate current readings on the AVOs for 6AS7, 6080 and 5998 are all extremely unreliable due to the circuitry. Conversely, almost dead tubes can test at over 100mA due to other variations such as cathode heater leakage. Tubes from this family testing over NOS on say a Hickok tester can test 50% on the AVOs, so really the reading from this seller is not relevant at all without a minimum good or known good value for comparison.

If I list a tube, I clearly denote the heater voltage, negative grid voltage, screen voltage if relevant and a reference plate current and GM value as a slight change in any of these values will significantly adjust the final reading. The tube listed there may well be NOS, but it would be a gamble until it arrives and is tested under proper conditions.


----------



## bcowen

UntilThen said:


> This is the one that surprised me at how well I can combined different tubes and yet get beautiful sonics. Mullard ECC33, Cetron 7236, Tung Sol 5998. I was even mad to let the Cetron 7236 and Mullard ECC33 go.


Here....just for the memories because you're a good boss.  Cetron and Tung Sol 6J5's playing nice together in the Incubus:


----------



## gibosi

And speaking of interesting combinations with great sonics in the Glenn:

GEC U18/20, four Tung-Sol 6BX7 and a pair of 90 year-old Arcturus #27. Looks great and sounds great.


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> This is far more representative of what *I* like to see, especially when buying expensive tubes:
> 
> 1) Tester model used (this one a TV-7)
> 2) Calibration evidence shown. If Dan Nelson worked on it, it's good...he's one of the best in the biz with TV-7's (at least in the USA)
> ...


I was watching that auction. Looks like a few people noticed the clear top and bottom getters - same as most WE 421A. This type of construction seems to be very rare now.


----------



## HTSkywalker

gibosi said:


> And speaking of interesting combinations with great sonics in the Glenn:
> 
> GEC U18/20, four Tung-Sol 6BX7 and a pair of 90 year-old Arcturus #27. Looks great and sounds great.


Interesting Christmas tree you got there 😍


----------



## tubebuyer2020

HTSkywalker said:


> Interesting Christmas tree you got there 😍



Arcturus blue tubes look amazing. Some violet Marelli tubes could have been a worthy addition to that ensemble, but they are likely impossible to find...


----------



## HTSkywalker

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Arcturus blue tubes look amazing. Some violet Marelli tubes could have been a worthy addition to that ensemble, but they are likely impossible to find...


Have a couple of PSVANE Blue tubes which looks amazing glowing in the dark


----------



## Dogmatrix

Bit quiet down here for a while so

*Tube Porn





















*


----------



## HTSkywalker

Dogmatrix said:


> Bit quiet down here for a while so
> 
> *Tube Porn
> 
> ...


Where are you using those pairs ?


----------



## Dogmatrix (May 30, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Where are you using those pairs ?


Brand new McChanson pEart amp coming next week

https://www.mcchanson.com


----------



## HTSkywalker

Dogmatrix said:


> Brand new McChanson pEart amp coming next week
> 
> https://www.mcchanson.com


See you are in for a treat 😍


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Dogmatrix said:


> Bit quiet down here for a while so
> 
> *Tube Porn
> 
> ...


Great pics and tubes! Didn't even know about the CV8614, are they direct equivalents of 6080?


----------



## HPAholic (May 30, 2021)

WE 5998 / 421a from 1951 through 1955 ...





*First Source: *Oct. 03, 1951 on the Electron Tube Registration List and this was the RMA/EIA code for the WE 421A. So the tube with date code 152 might be the 1st ever run for the WE 5998 / 421a.


----------



## Ripper2860

Sweet.  My one and only 421A has a 152 date code.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Nice seeing all the tube pictures over the past couple of days.

I finally got the GEC 6AS7G I wanted, and just in time to enjoy with an amazing BHC built by a fellow Head-Fier (more about this in the Crack thread when I have time to do it justice properly). They came as a pair, but there is a clear difference in size. I haven't A/B-ed much, but I swear they sound better than great, I don't think I'm just telling myself that. Maybe it's the amp, because it also sounds great with the 5998, 421A or 6520.


----------



## HTSkywalker

CaptainFantastic said:


> Nice seeing all the tube pictures over the past couple of days.
> 
> I finally got the GEC 6AS7G I wanted, and just in time to enjoy with an amazing BHC built by a fellow Head-Fier (more about this in the Crack thread when I have time to do it justice properly). They came as a pair, but there is a clear difference in size. I haven't A/B-ed much, but I swear they sound better than great, I don't think I'm just telling myself that. Maybe it's the amp, because it also sounds great with the 5998, 421A or 6520.


Looks beautiful and shiny too 😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

Which cans you tried ?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

HTSkywalker said:


> Which cans you tried ?



HD-600, HD-650 and ZMF Aeolus. I prefer the 600 and the Aeolus.


----------



## HPAholic

I found a few more WE 421a all *Date Code:* 6752 hiding in the stash.  Sometimes I forget what's in there, lol


----------



## HPAholic

Well if we're doing *Tube Porn*, what about these.  I only have one pair, kind of hard to source at a good price now-a-days ...


----------



## HTSkywalker

What is it with the tube parade lately 😊😁😁😁


----------



## gibosi

HPAholic said:


> WE 5998 / 421a from 1951 through 1955 ...
> 
> 
> 
> *First Source: *Oct. 03, 1951 on the Electron Tube Registration List and this was the RMA/EIA code for the WE 421A. So the tube with date code 152 might be the 1st ever run for the WE 5998 / 421a.



Yes, but just to be clear, at the request of WE, the RTMA (Radio-Television Manufacturer's Association) registered "5998" as a Special Purpose code designation for the 421A on Oct 3, 1951, and yes, it is likely that the pictured tube with the date code "152" is one of the earliest. But it is important to remember that WE released the 421A on Dec 15, 1948, so you may find 421A, without the "5998" label, manufactured as early as 1948/1949.

And by the way, that's a very nice collection.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

HPAholic said:


> Well if we're doing *Tube Porn*, what about these.  I only have one pair, kind of hard to source at a good price now-a-days ...



That's a good photo with some composition and light etc.


----------



## HPAholic

@gibosi, thanks for the clarification and the info. I have been looking all around the world for WE 421a from pre-1951.  What is the last year for the grey plates - 1965?

@tubebuyer2020, thanks.  It's done with an iPhone, native Windows 10 photo editor and shot in a room with 4 windows.


----------



## JTbbb

HPAholic said:


> I found a few more WE 421a all *Date Code:* 6752 hiding in the stash.  Sometimes I forget what's in there, lol



My godfathers, this is why you don’t see them for sale very often 😀. Do you want to sell me a pair?


----------



## leftside

Very nice tubes. Thanks for posting.

Here are some later WE421A from 1981, 1985, 1972


----------



## Dogmatrix

tintinsnowydog said:


> Great pics and tubes! Didn't even know about the CV8614, are they direct equivalents of 6080?


Yes , most of the brit tubes have two CV numbers depending on age


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Very nice tubes. Thanks for posting.
> 
> Here are some later WE421A from 1981, 1985, 1972


Dang hoarders.  Between you and @HPAholic it's no wonder there's none left for the rest of us.


----------



## leftside

bcowen said:


> Dang hoarders.  Between you and @HPAholic it's no wonder there's none left for the rest of us.


Hey my amp takes 6 lol.


----------



## gibosi

HPAholic said:


> @gibosi, thanks for the clarification and the info. I have been looking all around the world for WE 421a from pre-1951.  What is the last year for the grey plates - 1965?
> 
> @tubebuyer2020, thanks.  It's done with an iPhone, native Windows 10 photo editor and shot in a room with 4 windows.



My budget won't permit me to chase after 421A and I don't own even one, and I don't have any knowledge regarding construction changes over the years.

I do have access to the correspondence between RTMA and WE regarding the registration of 5998 as a Special Purpose code designation for the 421A. And I have seen a WE datasheet for the 421A dated Dec 15, 1948 which implies that this tube was out there prior to the registration. However given that you have been actively searching for some time, this might suggest that pre-1951 WE 421A are very rare, or WE decided to wait after the registration process was complete before bringing the 421A to market. Another mystery.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

Dogmatrix said:


> Yes , most of the brit tubes have two CV numbers depending on age


That's right, I have seen them labelled CV2984 (6080) and CV5004 (6080WA) but not the CV8614. A quick search reveals it is the 'quick heat' version that is sensibly equivalent to CV5008, so I guess that makes the CV8614 equivalent to the 6080WB. B is meant to designate quick heat up- but tell that to the Bendix 6080WB!


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Hey my amp takes 6 lol.


6?  Holy cow.  You're forgiven then.    But what are you driving? Apogee Scintilla's?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Is it normal for a tube (6AS7G in this case) to get darker on the inside (smoky dark, like someone lit a match and the glass acquired a darkish, smoky but uniform color) and for the chromium to all of a sudden cover the top whereas before use it was just in the lower part of the tube?

It happened while using for 3-4 hours, did not pay attention during, just saw it after. It works and sounds fine... is this just the inner gas settling or something? It's the first time I use this particular tube.


----------



## whirlwind

Some real killer 421A pics guys....those are some great collections of those tubes


----------



## JKDJedi

leftside said:


> Very nice tubes. Thanks for posting.
> 
> Here are some later WE421A from 1981, 1985, 1972


I was gonna post a pic of my one 76' but then this.. ^  wow...what a collection. Nice.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

CaptainFantastic said:


> Is it normal for a tube (6AS7G in this case) to get darker on the inside (smoky dark, like someone lit a match and the glass acquired a darkish, smoky but uniform color) and for the chromium to all of a sudden cover the top whereas before use it was just in the lower part of the tube?
> 
> It happened while using for 3-4 hours, did not pay attention during, just saw it after. It works and sounds fine... is this just the inner gas settling or something? It's the first time I use this particular tube.



A few photos would be interesting.


----------



## JTbbb

Any 421a collectors out there consider some form of exchange for a pair of Bendix Slotted Graphite Plate 6080WB’s, or a pair of Mullard Brown Base ecc32’s?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

tubebuyer2020 said:


> A few photos would be interesting.



Right, so here is the change. It is even more dramatic in real life than the photos suggest. 

Full disclosure, I always have same routine - turn on amp, no volume, plug in headphones, let tubes warm up 5-10 minutes, play music for however long - keep amp under some music load even if I walk away 5-10 minutes, then turn off sound from source, turn volume on amp to zero, unplug headphones, turn off amp. On this occasion I actually forgot the amp on after unplugging the headphones for some 20-30 minutes. Could this have caused it?


Before - clear as day at the top:





After - smoky glass and top you see mirror in picture, it looks like chromium in real life.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

CaptainFantastic said:


> Right, so here is the change. It is even more dramatic in real life than the photos suggest.
> 
> Full disclosure, I always have same routine - turn on amp, no volume, plug in headphones, let tubes warm up 5-10 minutes, play music for however long - keep amp under some music load even if I walk away 5-10 minutes, then turn off sound from source, turn volume on amp to zero, unplug headphones, turn off amp. On this occasion I actually forgot the amp on after unplugging the headphones for some 20-30 minutes. Could this have caused it?
> 
> ...



Well, an ebay seller would have said "NOS/NIB rare chrome-dome bad boy GEC 6AS7G"!
On a serious note - no idea, perhaps the temperature was high enough to vaporise and migrate the getter flash deposit?


----------



## tubebuyer2020

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/189001-resurrecting-weak-tubes.html

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/316578-regenerating-tubes-experience.html

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/231203-baking-tubes-procedure-help.html


----------



## JKDJedi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Right, so here is the change. It is even more dramatic in real life than the photos suggest.
> 
> Full disclosure, I always have same routine - turn on amp, no volume, plug in headphones, let tubes warm up 5-10 minutes, play music for however long - keep amp under some music load even if I walk away 5-10 minutes, then turn off sound from source, turn volume on amp to zero, unplug headphones, turn off amp. On this occasion I actually forgot the amp on after unplugging the headphones for some 20-30 minutes. Could this have caused it?
> 
> ...


That the same tube?wow.. looks like some getter material imploded to the very top..


----------



## Dogmatrix

CaptainFantastic said:


> Right, so here is the change. It is even more dramatic in real life than the photos suggest.
> 
> Full disclosure, I always have same routine - turn on amp, no volume, plug in headphones, let tubes warm up 5-10 minutes, play music for however long - keep amp under some music load even if I walk away 5-10 minutes, then turn off sound from source, turn volume on amp to zero, unplug headphones, turn off amp. On this occasion I actually forgot the amp on after unplugging the headphones for some 20-30 minutes. Could this have caused it?
> 
> ...


I have seen some GEC tubes develop small silver spots directly over the filament tubes but nothing as dramatic as that . I always thought it was something that had developed over years of use and took it as a sign of age . Carbon deposit is normal , quite common in 5998 types but again I thought it developed over time .


----------



## tintinsnowydog

CaptainFantastic said:


> Right, so here is the change. It is even more dramatic in real life than the photos suggest.
> 
> Full disclosure, I always have same routine - turn on amp, no volume, plug in headphones, let tubes warm up 5-10 minutes, play music for however long - keep amp under some music load even if I walk away 5-10 minutes, then turn off sound from source, turn volume on amp to zero, unplug headphones, turn off amp. On this occasion I actually forgot the amp on after unplugging the headphones for some 20-30 minutes. Could this have caused it?
> 
> ...


That's really fascinating, I wouldn't expect a getter-flash like appearance to develop so quickly especially under normal operating temperatures. Does the getter look any different? The rest of the tube also looks a bit darker in the second photo but that may just be the angle? 

I have an A1834 which has a patch of chrome at the top but it came to me like this- it hasn't really changed much with extended use. The others I have seen are all clear tops.


----------



## leftside

JKDJedi said:


> I was gonna post a pic of my one 76' but then this.. ^  wow...what a collection. Nice.


You still should! Always good to see these vintage tubes.


----------



## maxpudding

Probably just another post about the importance of cleaning your tube pins. I've just managed to fix a 6080WB tube that didn't have sound coming from the right channel at all by using a 400 grit sandpaper and some contact cleaners.

@leftside, that's some hardcore tube porn


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jun 1, 2021)

maxpudding said:


> Probably just another post about the importance of cleaning your tube pins. I've just managed to fix a 6080WB tube that didn't have sound coming from the right channel at all by using a 400 grit sandpaper and some contact cleaners.
> 
> @leftside, that's some hardcore tube porn


Re-soldering also makes wonders


----------



## tintinsnowydog

To add to the tube parade- a brief history of the MOV A1834/CV2523

Earlier, pre 1954 black base A1834. The labels are painted on and can rub off! HK (1952) and JJ (1953) date codes. 




Brown (curved) base design starting from 1954 (KE date code). Internals seem identical to the black base so far. Label is more resilient now (right)!




Brown (straight) base. Looks like the cup getter was introduced from 1955 onwards replacing the older rectangular getter. Some time after, the distinctive short bottle design was adopted. Straight and curved bases are both used and do not necessarily indicate vintage, probably depending more on the specific order and desired environment of use at the time. 



CV2523 designation.




I don't have any tubes later than 1968, but I'm aware that they switch to the 4 digit codes after Z= 1968 (YYWW). They can then have halo getters (but never flying saucers!)


----------



## leftside

tintinsnowydog said:


> To add to the tube parade- a brief history of the MOV A1834/CV2523
> 
> Earlier, pre 1954 black base A1834. The labels are painted on and can rub off! HK (1952) and JJ (1953) date codes.
> 
> ...


Informative post. Thanks. Those first two pairs you posted are very rare. Very strange for MOV/GEC to do this with the getters. Usually the cup getters came before the D getters. I also have a GEC 6AS7G brown base from the 60's with a D getter, but I consider this to be an anomaly. 

I know with the KT66 the very earliest versions used a flat solid saucer like getter, then inverted cup and then twin halos starting early 1960's.


----------



## JTbbb

tintinsnowydog said:


> To add to the tube parade- a brief history of the MOV A1834/CV2523
> 
> Earlier, pre 1954 black base A1834. The labels are painted on and can rub off! HK (1952) and JJ (1953) date codes.
> 
> ...



Nice post and so knowledgeable! Are there enough pictures here to give me some information on these?


----------



## gibosi

leftside said:


> Informative post. Thanks. Those first two pairs you posted are very rare. Very strange for MOV/GEC to do this with the getters. Usually the cup getters came before the D getters. I also have a GEC 6AS7G brown base from the 60's with a D getter, but I consider this to be an anomaly.
> 
> I know with the KT66 the very earliest versions used a flat solid saucer like getter, then inverted cup and then twin halos starting early 1960's.



My experience is the same as yours. I have three pairs of GEC 6AS7G -- 1949, 1956 and 1960, and all have the inverted cup getters. In fact, 1949 has two small inverted cup getters. And it appears to me that GEC began to use D getters in 6AS7 sometime after 1960.


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Nice post and so knowledgeable! Are there enough pictures here to give me some information on these?



Z is the factory, MO Valve Company, Hammersmith.

The two letters, in your case, SJ, correspond to the date. AA is 1945, January so SJ is 1960, September. (assuming I have calcuated this correctly .

The following link will help you decipher these factory and date codes:

https://mullard.org/blogs/news/83886851-cv-numbers-and-uk-military-date-and-factory-codes


----------



## exchez

gibosi said:


> Z is the factory, MO Valve Company, Hammersmith.
> 
> The two letters, in your case, SJ, correspond to the date. AA is 1945, January so SJ is 1960, September. (assuming I have calcuated this correctly .
> 
> ...


Part of the fun of tube rolling is employing some form of minor code breaking just to figure out what your spending all your money on


----------



## leftside (Jun 1, 2021)

exchez said:


> Part of the fun of tube rolling is employing some form of minor code breaking just to figure out what your spending all your money on


GEC are pretty easy. Philips and later Mullard are possible, but sometimes it’s like cracking a secret code. Good luck with early Mullard (before they adopted the Philips system). I’ve yet to meet someone who can crack those codes completely.

Edit: GEC pre Jan 1945 are also tough to decipher. I have a few early KT66 from then, and the best I can find is “wartime”.


----------



## leftside

gibosi said:


> My experience is the same as yours. I have three pairs of GEC 6AS7G -- 1949, 1956 and 1960, and all have the inverted cup getters. In fact, 1949 has two small inverted cup getters. And it appears to me that GEC began to use D getters in 6AS7 sometime after 1960.


Post up some photos of those 1949 GEC 6AS7G my friend. Would be interesting to see those getters.


----------



## gibosi

leftside said:


> Post up some photos of those 1949 GEC 6AS7G my friend. Would be interesting to see those getters.



Here you go.


----------



## leftside

gibosi said:


> Here you go.


Nice. And with remnants of that early Marconi "shield" logo.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

gibosi said:


> Here you go.


Such a nice pre-1950 pair!

Regarding getters, MOV probably used whatever they had on hand at the time. Those small cup getters are typical of the MOV metal base 6J5 from similar vintage, so possibly that was what was readily available in 1949. The rectangular D getters and large inverted cup getters were probably used interchangeably until mid/late 60s. Then we see the halo getter making an appearance after that, but some 6J5 for instance even with the exact same date code and other internals can have halo or rectangular getters.


----------



## rlawry

Hi All:  I am a relative newbie to this forum and have a question about T-S 5998/421A tubes.  If the tube is marked as a 5998/421A tube, which one is it:  5998 or 421A?  Or is it a unique version of this tube?  It seems as though most, if not all, of these tubes are dual-bottom getter tubes with clear tops like all of the 421A and some of the older 5998s.  I apologize if this has been answered in the past but haven't gotten through all 521 pages so far. Thank you.


----------



## Odin412

I picked up a couple of vintage Svetlana 6AS7G tubes from Russia via eBay. Very nice tubes - they are excellent in my Woo Audio WA3. Reasonable price too.


----------



## exchez

rlawry said:


> Hi All:  I am a relative newbie to this forum and have a question about T-S 5998/421A tubes.  If the tube is marked as a 5998/421A tube, which one is it:  5998 or 421A?  Or is it a unique version of this tube?  It seems as though most, if not all, of these tubes are dual-bottom getter tubes with clear tops like all of the 421A and some of the older 5998s.  I apologize if this has been answered in the past but haven't gotten through all 521 pages so far. Thank you.


To distinguish a 421A from a 5998: "[The 421A] always have dual bottom halos or D getters with spiral wound "pigtails" filament wiring >>> 5998 have straight filament wiring and cleartop 5998s are very rare."

Apparently Tung Sol made some tubes labeled as 421A: "Basically it's a Tung Sol 5998 labelled "421A" and has the black 5998 plates. Do not have one myself but pretty sure it's either the same tube as the 5998 with different getters or a 5998 with 421A specifications without the WE 421A construction differences."

Info from: http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


----------



## leftside

exchez said:


> To distinguish a 421A from a 5998: "[The 421A] always have dual bottom halos or D getters with spiral wound "pigtails" filament wiring >>> 5998 have straight filament wiring and cleartop 5998s are very rare."


I'll post up a pair of Chatham/TungSol 5998 with bottom getters and cleartop in a few days.



exchez said:


> Apparently Tung Sol made some tubes labeled as 421A: "Basically it's a Tung Sol 5998 labelled "421A" and has the black 5998 plates. Do not have one myself but pretty sure it's either the same tube as the 5998 with different getters or a 5998 with 421A specifications without the WE 421A construction differences."


Here is a 421A labelled tube with top getters. Now, you say these must be TungSol? I'm not an expert on Western Electric date codes, but I always believed these tubes were from 1981 which means they would have to be manufactured by Western Electric as TungSol didn't exist then. Can anyone else comment on this "813" date code. Perhaps I got it wrong.


----------



## mayurs

Got a Chatham 6080WA thinking that it will be same as my Tungsol 6080 but it is quite different to the Tungsol. No extra mica supports and the top end looks quite different. Is it a Raytheon 6080 variant?


----------



## rlawry

@leftside, so if I am to understand correctly, the above tubes labeled as WE421A break both rules of distinguishing the 5998 from 421A, having top getters and what appears to be non-coiled cathode heater wiring.  Therefore, it is most likely a 5998 labeled as a 421A?  It seems as though there are almost always labelling or re-labelling differences that go against accepted convention.


----------



## JTbbb (Jun 2, 2021)

Chatham 5998’s, clear top, bottom getters. I believe 1957.


----------



## gibosi

rlawry said:


> Hi All:  I am a relative newbie to this forum and have a question about T-S 5998/421A tubes.  If the tube is marked as a 5998/421A tube, which one is it:  5998 or 421A?  Or is it a unique version of this tube?  It seems as though most, if not all, of these tubes are dual-bottom getter tubes with clear tops like all of the 421A and some of the older 5998s.  I apologize if this has been answered in the past but haven't gotten through all 521 pages so far. Thank you.



My current thinking......

All Western Electric 421A are also 5998. In 1950, WE formally requested that the RTMA (Radio-Television Manufacturer's Association) assign a special purpose number (5998) to the 421A. And in the early 1950's both numbers are commonly found on the WE 421A. It appears that later, as part of an agreement with Chatham, only Chatham used that designation.

Again it is my understanding that shortly after WE obtained the 5998 number, Chatham entered into an agreement with WE to produce a "5998". This involved purchasing the "guts" of the 421A from WE and installing them into a Chatham bottle, and also, licensing the 5998 designation.

In the end, there are no special versions of the WE 421A. But of course, given that the tube was manufactured for 30 some years, changes were made as a result of new materials and processes, as well as feed-back from the field. So a 421A manufactured in 1950 will likely sound somewhat different than one manufactured in 1980.

And a Chatham 5998 and a WE 421A, manufactured at about the same time will likely sound very similar. My advice: you can't go wrong with either. 

But again, this is just a WAG on my part to try to understand these two tubes and the relationship between these two companies.


----------



## leftside

rlawry said:


> @leftside, so if I am to understand correctly, the above tubes labeled as WE421A break both rules of distinguishing the 5998 from 421A, having top getters and what appears to be non-coiled cathode heater wiring.  Therefore, it is most likely a 5998 labeled as a 421A?  It seems as though there are almost always labelling or re-labelling differences that go against accepted convention.


Yes I think so. 

We also had fun over on the 6J5/L63 thread with some "GEC" labelled tubes that were actually Mullards and a few other rebranding examples.


----------



## Dogmatrix

A pair of plain old RCA 6as7g doing their thing in my new McChanson


----------



## rlawry

Thank you to all on the WE 421A/T-S 5998.  I always learn something about tubes on this forum.


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> My current thinking......
> 
> All Western Electric 421A are also 5998. In 1950, WE formally requested that the RTMA (Radio-Television Manufacturer's Association) assign a special purpose number (5998) to the 421A. And in the early 1950's both numbers are commonly found on the WE 421A. It appears that later, as part of an agreement with Chatham, only Chatham used that designation.
> 
> ...


gibosi, I think you have pretty much hit the nail on the head. I know the photos of my Chatham’s could be a little better, but the internals look identical to those of a similar age WE421a posted a few pages back.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

mayurs said:


> Got a Chatham 6080WA thinking that it will be same as my Tungsol 6080 but it is quite different to the Tungsol. No extra mica supports and the top end looks quite different. Is it a Raytheon 6080 variant?


The two round (non-serrated) top micas along with the grey heater shields look like RCA 6080s to me. That is interesting, have never seen Chatham branding on any 6080 apart from the TS 3 mica support type.


----------



## tubebuyer2020 (Jun 3, 2021)

Dogmatrix said:


> A pair of plain old RCA 6as7g doing their thing in my new McChanson



RCA 6as7g (even grey-plate) is now officially a fancy premium tube on par with 6080 Tung-Sol, anyone who disagrees - PM links to cheap NOS please!

PS: $30+ is not cheap imho.


----------



## gibosi

tubebuyer2020 said:


> RCA 6as7g (even grey-plate) is now officially a fancy premium tube on par with 6080 Tung-Sol, anyone who disagrees - PM links to cheap NOS please!
> 
> PS: $30+ is not cheap imho.



With all due respect, if anything over $30 is too much, then I would recommend Svetlana 6N5S / 6N13S. They are quite good and fit into your budget.


----------



## tubebuyer2020 (Jun 3, 2021)

gibosi said:


> With all due respect, if anything over $30 is too much, then I would recommend Svetlana 6N5S / 6N13S. They are quite good and fit into your budget.



Both are within my budget, thank you very much, my point is that RCA 6as7g is not a cheap and common tube anymore. Open ebay and they are far and few in between. A couple of insane sellers are even asking for $100 bucks!

Example of cheap and somewhat comparable tubes: 6080 RCA/GE. They are undesirable of course, but it's not like they are Shuguang, Bottlehead consider them good enough.


----------



## gibosi

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Both are within my budget, thank you very much, my point is that RCA 6as7g is not a cheap and common tube anymore. Open ebay and they are far and few in between. A couple of insane sellers are even asking for $100 bucks!
> 
> Example of cheap and somewhat comparable tubes: 6080 RCA/GE. They are undesirable of course, but it's not like they are Shuguang, Bottlehead consider them good enough.



I hear you. It seems that Covid has impacted tube prices. Just 15 months ago, many tubes were much more reasonable.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

gibosi said:


> I hear you. It seems that Covid has impacted tube prices. Just 15 months ago, many tubes were much more reasonable.



Pre-Covid I was only interested in portable gear! Also I think (Mass)Drop has boosted awareness of good headphone-centric audio I think, including tube amps.


----------



## tintinsnowydog

RCA 6080 and the 6AS7 are really great tubes, relatively plentiful and affordable still. I neglected them for a while but have really enjoyed using them recently. They match really well in tone with brighter headphones by warming up the bass response and smoothing out the highs e.g. with HD800.


----------



## HTSkywalker

tintinsnowydog said:


> RCA 6080 and the 6AS7 are really great tubes, relatively plentiful and affordable still. I neglected them for a while but have really enjoyed using them recently. They match really well in tone with brighter headphones by warming up the bass response and smoothing out the highs e.g. with HD800.


In general RCAs are polite all round performers but nothing outside the ordinary


----------



## HTSkywalker

tubebuyer2020 said:


> RCA 6as7g (even grey-plate) is now officially a fancy premium tube on par with 6080 Tung-Sol, anyone who disagrees - PM links to cheap NOS please!
> 
> PS: $30+ is not cheap imho.


Good tubes for the price but not fancy ones, The Tung Sol 5998 is a fancy one


----------



## PsilocybinCube

bcowen said:


> The ECC40 sounds great in_ my_ Incubus. The TS 5998 is not the best pairing (a bit too mid-forward for my tastes), but pairs nicely with an RCA 6AS7G or the Mullard 6080. I have Tungsram and Miniwatt (Philips) ECC40's and personally prefer the Tungsram.



Old post, but wanted to give my two cents, the ECC40 sounds great in my Incubus as well.  Highly recommended.  I bought the Philip's Mini-Watt ECC40 and am very pleased.

Paired with a 421a it is a bit mid-forward as you referenced, but that sounds good with the Focal Utopia.  Ordering the Tungsram now...down the rabbit hole we go.


----------



## gibosi (Jun 4, 2021)

Welcome to the Philips rabbit hole! 

Your ECC40 could have been manufactured at any one of 5 different Philips factories: Chartres, France; Suresnes, France; Hamburg, Germany; Eindhoven, Holland and Sittard, Holland. And tubes manufactured in different factories sound different.  So in which factory was your ECC40 made?


----------



## PsilocybinCube

I don't know where it is from.  I've seen some that will have 'Made in Holland' or something.  I'm at work and that tube/amp is at home, but here's the ebay listing:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/392303584240

And bc my paypal account  had a balance I had to buy two Tungsram ECC40 tubes this morning, of course.  Now for the long wait for shipping from Ukraine to the US!


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I don't know where it is from.  I've seen some that will have 'Made in Holland' or something.  I'm at work and that tube/amp is at home, but here's the ebay listing:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/392303584240
> 
> And bc my paypal account  had a balance I had to buy two Tungsram ECC40 tubes this morning, of course.  Now for the long wait for shipping from Ukraine to the US!


I'm afraid you cannot believe "Made in country x" printed on the box or the tube. The production code reveals the truth. 

+ on the base indicates Chartres, France. And it is likely that it was manufactured in 1961.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> I'm afraid you cannot believe "Made in country x" printed on the box or the tube. The production code reveals the truth.
> 
> + on the base indicates Chartres, France. And it is likely that it was manufactured in 1961.


Well thank you for illuminating me on that!  As a Francophile, that makes me like the tube even more.  No wonder it sounded so good on french (Focal) headphones. 

What database or spec sheet do you use as a reference for production codes?


----------



## HTSkywalker

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well thank you for illuminating me on that!  As a Francophile, that makes me like the tube even more.  No wonder it sounded so good on french (Focal) headphones.
> 
> What database or spec sheet do you use as a reference for production codes?


Which amp are you using the Focal with ?


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well thank you for illuminating me on that!  As a Francophile, that makes me like the tube even more.  No wonder it sounded so good on french (Focal) headphones.
> 
> What database or spec sheet do you use as a reference for production codes?



Here is the key to the Philips universe. 

http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ref4110.pdf


----------



## HTSkywalker

gibosi said:


> Here is the key to the Philips universe.
> 
> http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ref4110.pdf


that's a Philips reference chart


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> Well thank you for illuminating me on that!  As a Francophile, that makes me like the tube even more.  No wonder it sounded so good on french (Focal) headphones.
> 
> What database or spec sheet do you use as a reference for production codes?


Not for Philips, but below is a chart that @Guidostrunk posted in another thread that details the "KB" codes on STC, Brimar, and Mullard (just for future reference).  First time I've seen a list like this, and I've always wondered what factories the KBxx codes referred to.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-mjolnir-2-listening-impressions.778250/page-252#post-16393820


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Not for Philips, but below is a chart that @Guidostrunk posted in another thread that details the "KB" codes on STC, Brimar, and Mullard (just for future reference).  First time I've seen a list like this, and I've always wondered what factories the KBxx codes referred to.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-mjolnir-2-listening-impressions.778250/page-252#post-16393820



@Guidostrunk 's post provides part of the British Common Valve specification code.

KB = K designates a valve manufactured to specification K1001 or K1006, and B denotes qualification by a UK authority.

And the CV factory codes are specified more completely here:

https://mullard.org/blogs/news/83886851-cv-numbers-and-uk-military-date-and-factory-codes


----------



## PsilocybinCube

HTSkywalker said:


> Which amp are you using the Focal with ?


Sorry for the delayed reply, I use the Incubus Elegan.  It's a custom amp designed around a 6as7g/6080 power tube and a 6sn7 (or equivalent) driver tube.  The amp was designed and built by @Paladin79 

There are a few others of us in the forum who also own his amp.  It does a good job of accentuating different characteristics in tubes.  Kind of tube rollers dream (or nightmare for bad tubes).

Paladin uses the Focal Utopia, too.  Maybe that's why it plays so nicely with this amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sorry for the delayed reply, I use the Incubus Elegan.  It's a custom amp designed around a 6as7g/6080 power tube and a 6sn7 (or equivalent) driver tube.  The amp was designed and built by @Paladin79
> 
> There are a few others of us in the forum who also own his amp.  It does a good job of accentuating different characteristics in tubes.  Kind of tube rollers dream (or nightmare for bad tubes).
> 
> Paladin uses the Focal Utopia, too.  Maybe that's why it plays so nicely with this amp.


Tell me about it 😁😁😁👍👍👍
And you probably know Finnegan too 🙂


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> Sorry for the delayed reply, I use the Incubus Elegan.  It's a custom amp designed around a 6as7g/6080 power tube and a 6sn7 (or equivalent) driver tube.  The amp was designed and built by @Paladin79
> 
> There are a few others of us in the forum who also own his amp.  It does a good job of accentuating different characteristics in tubes.  Kind of tube rollers dream (or nightmare for bad tubes).
> 
> Paladin uses the Focal Utopia, too.  Maybe that's why it plays so nicely with this amp.


The Utopias do well with my amps and @PsilocybinCube was kind enough to lend me some ZMF Verite's that also do nicely with the amp. It took me a few days to adjust to them but I can see why folks like them as well, but my choice is still the Focals.


----------



## gibosi

Maybe someone might find this to be an interesting read:

Saga of Marconi Osram Valve: A History of Valve-making

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154487895921


----------



## leftside

gibosi said:


> Maybe someone might find this to be an interesting read:
> 
> Saga of Marconi Osram Valve: A History of Valve-making
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154487895921


It's a great book! I'm about half way through reading my copy. The pictures are great as well - for example the company would regularly hold company dances and many employees found their spouses at such events. They have pictures of these events.


----------



## exchez

gibosi said:


> Maybe someone might find this to be an interesting read:
> 
> Saga of Marconi Osram Valve: A History of Valve-making
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/154487895921


Thanks for sharing! I just started _Saga of the Vacuum Tube_ by Tyne. Can't wait to read another tube saga when I'm done


----------



## gibosi

exchez said:


> Thanks for sharing! I just started _Saga of the Vacuum Tube_ by Tyne. Can't wait to read another tube saga when I'm done



Yes! IMHO, both of these "sagas" are well worth reading (and owning.


----------



## raindownthunda

What size box do you all use for 6080 and 6as7g size tubes?

For 6080: I find 1 5/8" fairly tight and 1 7/8" fairly loose.

For 5998/6AS7G: I find 1 7/8" fairly tight (bulge inducing) and 2 1/4" fairly loose. 

I'm looking to re-organize my boxes and I'm having trouble finding anything inbetween for both families of tubes. Stuffing them (especially the 6AS7G) in the smaller boxes makes me a bit nervous, although I haven't had any stress fractures yet... maybe better to stick with the larger sizes, even though they take up more space?

Also does anyone have any favorite stores for buying boxes? I've had good results with www.tubesandmore.com but curious where others buy them.


----------



## leftside

Took me quite a few years until I found a matching partner for the guy on the left.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

leftside said:


> Took me quite a few years until I found a matching partner for the guy on the left.


First time I see Chatham consumer market boxes!


----------



## HTSkywalker

leftside said:


> Took me quite a few years until I found a matching partner for the guy on the left.


Few years and an arm and a leg $$ I believe as well


----------



## exchez

HTSkywalker said:


> Few years and an arm and a leg $$ I believe as well





leftside said:


> Took me quite a few years until I found a matching partner for the guy on the left.


Very nice! I've never seen an original Chatham box. I imagine back in the day you could afford to grab your tubes and yank 'em right out of their sockets just like the logo.


----------



## leftside

HTSkywalker said:


> Few years and an arm and a leg $$ I believe as well


The first one no - less than $100. The second one was a little more


----------



## CaptainFantastic

leftside said:


> Took me quite a few years until I found a matching partner for the guy on the left.



Well done! Can't imagine there are many left in such great condition with the original boxes.

I will ask, how come the top plastic parts are rectangular? My 5998s and 421As all have a slightly rounded shape there. I understood from exchanges on this thread about a year ago that the pure rectangular ones are more indicative of 6AS7G tubes? Clearly these are 5998s, but different in that respect.

And a quick question - where did you get the wooden display bases from? I have been looking for something like that and can't find anything ready made.

Thanks!


----------



## HTSkywalker

leftside said:


> The first one no - less than $100. The second one was a little more


Sounds a good deal, any chance you can tell us where from


----------



## whirlwind

leftside said:


> Took me quite a few years until I found a matching partner for the guy on the left.


Nice!


----------



## gibosi (Jun 19, 2021)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Well done! Can't imagine there are many left in such great condition with the original boxes.
> 
> I will ask, how come the top plastic parts are rectangular? My 5998s and 421As all have a slightly rounded shape there. I understood from exchanges on this thread about a year ago that the pure rectangular ones are more indicative of 6AS7G tubes? Clearly these are 5998s, but different in that respect.
> 
> ...



It's important to remember that Chatham manufactured the 5998 from the early 1950's until at least the late 1960's, and over that period, new materials, new technologies and feedback from the field resulted in changes being incorporated into the assembly line. For example, the location and shape of the getters.

In this case, the rectangular mica spacers are typically found on "clear-top" 5998's manufactured in the early to mid 1950's, that is, the getters are located below the bottom mica spacer. It appears that later production, with top getters, have the slightly rounded rectangular spacers that you note. As to why, I think I am safe in saying it is very likely that no one alive today knows.


----------



## leftside

HTSkywalker said:


> Sounds a good deal, any chance you can tell us where from


From eBay I think, but like I said it was a few years ago.


----------



## leftside

CaptainFantastic said:


> .
> 
> And a quick question - where did you get the wooden display bases from? I have been looking for something like that and can't find anything ready made.
> 
> Thanks!


Honestly can't remember! But I know when I went looking for some more I couldn't find them.


----------



## JTbbb

CaptainFantastic said:


> Well done! Can't imagine there are many left in such great condition with the original boxes.
> 
> I will ask, how come the top plastic parts are rectangular? My 5998s and 421As all have a slightly rounded shape there. I understood from exchanges on this thread about a year ago that the pure rectangular ones are more indicative of 6AS7G tubes? Clearly these are 5998s, but different in that respect.
> 
> ...



I’m going to hazard a guess from a purely mechanical point of view. Those plastic parts are there to stabilise the internal structure from movement in case of an external force knocking the tube. Considering the shape of the tube, the rounded plastic parts would give a greater contact point.

Otherwise, as has been mentioned…who knows!


----------



## rlawry

I have followed this thread for some time and own a relatively inexpensive Chinese-made tube amp, the XuanZu X2-0202 which is a hybrid that uses 5670 tube types for drivers and a single 6AS7 type as a cathode follower for what must be a solid-state output stage (I have not been able to procure an owner's manual).  I replaced the stock Chinese 6N3P driver tubes with some 1950s NOS Tesla D-getter 6CC42 tubes which made a significant improvement in sound and only cost $35 on Epay, a real bargain considering the cost of other top 5670 types such as WE 396A and Bendix 6385.  For the single cathode follower I was in a real quandary as the top-level replacements for the stock 6N5P such as the GEC 6AS7G, WE 421A, and T-S 5998 have become inordinately expensive, much more that what I paid for the amp in the first place.  I first tried a Raytheon 6080WC relabeled Bendix 6080 and noted an improvement mainly in the bass (tighter, deeper) and more liquid mids.  So after reading about alternatives from Head-Fiers I bought an inexpensive Sylvania 6BL7 tube with black X-plates and tried it to the results of even better bass with luscious mids and a more extended treble.  So at this point I am at least backburnering my attempts at finding a better-sounding 6AS7 variant.  It is good to know there are cheap alternatives out there.  I use 1More Triple-Driver Over-Ear and Master & Dynamic MH40 phones, BTW but saving up for a pair of ZMF Verite Closed phones if I can stop tube rolling, lol.


----------



## maxpudding

rlawry said:


> I have followed this thread for some time and own a relatively inexpensive Chinese-made tube amp, the XuanZu X2-0202 which is a hybrid that uses 5670 tube types for drivers and a single 6AS7 type as a cathode follower for what must be a solid-state output stage (I have not been able to procure an owner's manual).  I replaced the stock Chinese 6N3P driver tubes with some 1950s NOS Tesla D-getter 6CC42 tubes which made a significant improvement in sound and only cost $35 on Epay, a real bargain considering the cost of other top 5670 types such as WE 396A and Bendix 6385.  For the single cathode follower I was in a real quandary as the top-level replacements for the stock 6N5P such as the GEC 6AS7G, WE 421A, and T-S 5998 have become inordinately expensive, much more that what I paid for the amp in the first place.  I first tried a Raytheon 6080WC relabeled Bendix 6080 and noted an improvement mainly in the bass (tighter, deeper) and more liquid mids.  So after reading about alternatives from Head-Fiers I bought an inexpensive Sylvania 6BL7 tube with black X-plates and tried it to the results of even better bass with luscious mids and a more extended treble.  So at this point I am at least backburnering my attempts at finding a better-sounding 6AS7 variant.  It is good to know there are cheap alternatives out there.  I use 1More Triple-Driver Over-Ear and Master & Dynamic MH40 phones, BTW but saving up for a pair of ZMF Verite Closed phones if I can stop tube rolling, lol.


Glad to hear that the experiment with the 6BL7 worked out for you. Just be careful of upgraditis 😂


----------



## rlawry

maxpudding said:


> Glad to hear that the experiment with the 6BL7 worked out for you. Just be careful of upgraditis 😂


Oh, yes, I know all about upgraditis, that terminal condition that infects all of us audiophiles.  In 1975 I bought a pair of Stanton Dynaphase 60 headphones, which I still have, and it has gone downhill from there.


----------



## LoryWiv

rlawry said:


> I have followed this thread for some time and own a relatively inexpensive Chinese-made tube amp, the XuanZu X2-0202 which is a hybrid that uses 5670 tube types for drivers and a single 6AS7 type as a cathode follower for what must be a solid-state output stage (I have not been able to procure an owner's manual).  I replaced the stock Chinese 6N3P driver tubes with some 1950s NOS Tesla D-getter 6CC42 tubes which made a significant improvement in sound and only cost $35 on Epay, a real bargain considering the cost of other top 5670 types such as WE 396A and Bendix 6385.  For the single cathode follower I was in a real quandary as the top-level replacements for the stock 6N5P such as the GEC 6AS7G, WE 421A, and T-S 5998 have become inordinately expensive, much more that what I paid for the amp in the first place.  I first tried a Raytheon 6080WC relabeled Bendix 6080 and noted an improvement mainly in the bass (tighter, deeper) and more liquid mids.  So after reading about alternatives from Head-Fiers I bought an inexpensive *Sylvania 6BL7 *tube with black X-plates and tried it to the results of even better bass with luscious mids and a more extended treble.  So at this point I am at least backburnering my attempts at finding a better-sounding 6AS7 variant.  It is good to know there are cheap alternatives out there.  I use 1More Triple-Driver Over-Ear and Master & Dynamic MH40 phones, BTW but saving up for a pair of ZMF Verite Closed phones if I can stop tube rolling, lol.


Is 6BL7 a drop in rpelacement for 6AS7 or do you need adapters?


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> Is 6BL7 a drop in rpelacement for 6AS7 or do you need adapters?



The 6BL7 and 6AS7 are pin compatible, so it might be a drop-in replacement. However, in some amps, for electrical reasons (for example, B+ and/or current), it is better to replace the 6AS7 with two or three 6BL7, which would obviously require an adapter. 

For example, in a very different amp, four RCA 6BX7 replace two 6AS7.


----------



## jonathan c

gibosi said:


> The 6BL7 and 6AS7 are pin compatible, so it might be a drop-in replacement. However, in some amps, for electrical reasons (for example, B+ and/or current), it is better to replace the 6AS7 with two or three 6BL7, which would obviously require an adapter.
> 
> For example, in a very different amp, four RCA 6BX7 replace two 6AS7.


Tube chess?……..6SN7 three —> 6SN7 one ?


----------



## rlawry

In my amp I just plugged in the Sylvania 6BL7GTA tube directly into tube socket which had previously held 6AS7 variants such as the stock 6N5P and Bendix 6080.  Since my amp uses a single power tube/cathode follower, each channel using half of the dual triode, I cannot replace the stock 6N5P with multiple dual triodes such as the 6BL7.  I can, however, use a pair of A2293 single triodes and bought an adapter on Ebay to convert the 6N5P socket to dual A2293 tubes.  I haven't tried it yet but it is on my radar screen.


----------



## JTbbb

Some nice GEC 6AS7G’s have come up for sale on eBay today. They are in Sweden. Don’t come up for sale often.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

JTbbb said:


> Some nice GEC 6AS7G’s have come up for sale on eBay today. They are in Sweden. Don’t come up for sale often.



I was amused by seller saying _"I´ve decided it´s time to stock down a bit since i have to much to handle in my appartment."_ and picking NOS GEC 6AS7G to sell off out of all possible options!


----------



## exchez

tubebuyer2020 said:


> I was amused by seller saying _"I´ve decided it´s time to stock down a bit since i have to much to handle in my appartment."_ and picking NOS GEC 6AS7G to sell off out of all possible options!


And only selling one of the five. Wow dude, that's quite a downsize.


----------



## JTbbb

exchez said:


> And only selling one of the five. Wow dude, that's quite a downsize.



Perhaps the seller may let more than one go? Why show all five if not.


----------



## bcowen

exchez said:


> And only selling one of the five. Wow dude, that's quite a downsize.


Maybe he only has those 5 tubes, so selling one would be a 20% reduction.


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> Maybe he only has those 5 tubes, so selling one would be a 20% reduction.



Be a small flat he lives in then 😀😀


----------



## Deceneu808

Still my favourite


----------



## HTSkywalker

Deceneu808 said:


> Still my favourite


You can never go wrong with a Chatham or Tung Sol 5998


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> Still my favourite


a divine pairing with this tube is Tung sol 6j5g or 6j5gt.


----------



## Deceneu808

SHIMACM said:


> a divine pairing with this tube is Tung sol 6j5g or 6j5gt.


I've found my holy combo with the Ken Rad VT231s


----------



## LoryWiv

Deceneu808 said:


> Still my favourite


Is the Chatham 5998 far better than Chatham 6AS7G?


----------



## LoryWiv

Deceneu808 said:


> I've found my holy combo with the Ken Rad VT231s


1940's / black glass?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 6, 2021)

LoryWiv said:


> Is the Chatham 5998 far better than Chatham 6AS7G?


Many say 5998 is better, but some score the Chatham 6AS7G bottom getters a tad above the 5998 in double blind testing.  I own multiple pairs of both and I find them to be pretty close with my ears and gear. I might even give the 6AS7G a slight edge.  😉


----------



## HPAholic

I have two different version of the Chatham 6AS7G > bottom getter with clear tops and clear bottom with getter tops ...


----------



## raindownthunda (Jul 6, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Many say 5998 is better, but some score the Chatham 6AS7G bottom getters a tad above the 5998 in double blind testing.  I own multiple pairs of both and I find them to be pretty close with my ears and gear. I might even give the 6AS7G a slight edge.  😉


I think it depends on your system and preferences. They are both really good. I've found the 5998 to be a bit more forward and the 6as7g to be a bit more airy/ethereal. Both are very enjoyable to me and in back to back testing it would come down to the driver pairing and my mood . I would definitely not say that one is "far better" than the other. Both worth trying? Yes. Both worth owning? Depends on how much you like to tube roll and mix things up from time to time.


----------



## gibosi

raindownthunda said:


> I think it depends on your system and preferences. They are both really good. I've found the 5998 to be a bit more forward and the 6as7g to be a bit more airy/ethereal. Both are very enjoyable to me and in back to back testing it would come down to the driver pairing and my mood . I would definitely not say that one is "far better" than the other. Both worth trying? Yes. Both worth owning? Depends on how much you like to tube roll and mix things up from time to time.



Yes, one isn't necessarily better than the other, just different. It's all about system synergy. If you have a decent assortment of drivers and rectifiers, and you are willing to take the time to roll through them, you can make either of these output tubes shine.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Many say 5998 is better, but some score the Chatham 6AS7G bottom getters a tad above the 5998 in double blind testing.  I own multiple pairs of both and I find them to be pretty close with my ears and gear. I might even give the 6AS7G a slight edge.  😉


I'm impressed that you can hear a difference between them with your gear....


----------



## PsilocybinCube (Jul 6, 2021)

Ripper2860 said:


> Many say 5998 is better, but some score the Chatham 6AS7G bottom getters a tad above the 5998 in double blind testing.  I own multiple pairs of both and I find them to be pretty close with my ears and gear. I might even give the 6AS7G a slight edge.  😉


I used to be 100% a 5998 fan, but I find that they are noisier than the Chatham tube.  I'm now more of a Chatham fan due to it being a bit more consistent and tad bit more detailed.

I keep getting hum out of the 5998 and I'm just tired of it 

Edit:  When I say 'the 5998' I mean several of them.  It's not so bad in my BHC, worse in the Incubus.  I think the Incubus pushes it a bit harder (but it also sounds considerably better).


----------



## exchez

LoryWiv said:


> Is the Chatham 5998 far better than Chatham 6AS7G?


The Chatham/Tung Sol 2399/5998 is generally regarded as a superior tube in the Woo Audio community. I've rolled both in my WA2 with Beyerdynamic T1.2 headphones and I completely agree. The 5998s are faster, more musical and deliver better clarity/detail.


----------



## Deceneu808

LoryWiv said:


> 1940's / black glass?


Always


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jul 7, 2021)

bcowen said:


> I'm impressed that you can hear a difference between them with your gear....


Thought that was @Paladin79 flagship gear 🤣🤣🤣
Probably he is passing it around 😜😜


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> I'm impressed that you can hear a difference between them with your gear....



Rare stuff indeed!


----------



## HTSkywalker (Jul 7, 2021)

And BTW he's missing big time, probably on a summer break or in a tube hunting trip somewhere in Russia harvesting what's left of the Melz 6SN7 tubes 😁😁


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Deceneu808 said:


> Always



Are all Ken Rad VT231s with black glass from the 1940s?


----------



## tintinsnowydog

CaptainFantastic said:


> Are all Ken Rad VT231s with black glass from the 1940s?


I believe the only black glass Ken-Rads were the military ones from the 40s. Ken Rad was considered a 'second tier' tube maker before the war, and made quite a few during it. KR was acquired by GE in 1945 and the branding continued a little into the early 50s before all becoming GE. 

There are also clear glass Ken Rads from the 40s- identical construction as the black glass under a bright light as well as the same printing. I think they sound the same


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> And BTW he's missing big time, probably on a summer break or in a tube hunting trip somewhere in Russia harvesting what's left of the Melz 6SN7 tubes 😁😁


I am taking a break from design for a while and while I keep hearing about rare Russian tubes, no one has come through with a large enough quantity to peak my interest.😜


----------



## Paladin79

PsilocybinCube said:


> I used to be 100% a 5998 fan, but I find that they are noisier than the Chatham tube.  I'm now more of a Chatham fan due to it being a bit more consistent and tad bit more detailed.
> 
> I keep getting hum out of the 5998 and I'm just tired of it
> 
> Edit:  When I say 'the 5998' I mean several of them.  It's not so bad in my BHC, worse in the Incubus.  I think the Incubus pushes it a bit harder (but it also sounds considerably better).


I have resoldered the pins on some Tung Sol 5998’s and that seems to help. I get no hum with GE 5998A’s, they are a much newer tube IMHO


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> Yes, one isn't necessarily better than the other, just different. It's all about system synergy. If you have a decent assortment of drivers and rectifiers, and you are willing to take the time to roll through them, you can make either of these output tubes shine.


Both of those out put tubes sound great to my ears, and the RCA is pretty nice for some music too. I prefer a some what brighter driver with RCA.
 I totally agree....if you have enough tubes and enough time...there are so many nice combos to fit ones needs. 
Way too many to even write about  .   What ever combo it takes to synergize with the rest of your gear and your personal preference.
If you want something Euphoric, play with tubes until something sounds good.


----------



## Paladin79

whirlwind said:


> Both of those out put tubes sound great to my ears, and the RCA is pretty nice for some music too. I prefer a some what brighter driver with RCA.
> I totally agree....if you have enough tubes and enough time...there are so many nice combos to fit ones needs.
> Way too many to even write about  .   What ever combo it takes to synergize with the rest of your gear and your personal preference.
> If you want something Euphoric, play with tubes until something sounds good.


My local group and I are in the middle of testing over 1900 6SN7 equivalents using Four identical Tung Sol 5998’s as outputs. I have plenty of power tubes but some 6SN7’s sound awful no matter which power tube is selected. It would be fun to run some different power tubes with our top tier selections and see if in blind testing the results are similar.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

tintinsnowydog said:


> I believe the only black glass Ken-Rads were the military ones from the 40s. Ken Rad was considered a 'second tier' tube maker before the war, and made quite a few during it. KR was acquired by GE in 1945 and the branding continued a little into the early 50s before all becoming GE.
> 
> There are also clear glass Ken Rads from the 40s- identical construction as the black glass under a bright light as well as the same printing. I think they sound the same




Thanks. And what is the black material, what does it do? For example I see one tube posted now on eBay that is almost entirely black, seems different than the others which are 70-80% black (wrong continent and definitely wrong price for me, and too many other new tubes to enjoy anyway).


----------



## whirlwind

Paladin79 said:


> My local group and I are in the middle of testing over 1900 6SN7 equivalents using Four identical Tung Sol 5998’s as outputs. I have plenty of power tubes but some 6SN7’s sound awful no matter which power tube is selected. It would be fun to run some different power tubes with our top tier selections and see if in blind testing the results are similar.


 
Hopefully they won't go crazy and have their mind explode exploring that many drivers....there are many good drivers for those output tubes just depends on what sound you are looking for.  Some people prefer a brighter sound, some a warmer sound....some want vocals up front...some a few rows back


----------



## Paladin79

whirlwind said:


> Hopefully they won't go crazy and have their mind explode exploring that many drivers....there are many good drivers for those output tubes just depends on what sound you are looking for.  Some people prefer a brighter sound, some a warmer sound....some want vocals up front...some a few rows back


A group of fifty people will do the final comparisons of the top 52 that nine of us chose. Many of my group are engineers who help with setup and implementation. We use a scoring system and specific music recorded for these events and it has worked well in the past. Final testing can take an entire weekend or longer so this is not something for the timid lol. We do have a party after so it is also a fun event. One of the top tubes I have submitted that did well in preliminary tests have been heard by many on this site as I loaned it out, mind you those people and myself listened with various power tubes and the worst comment I heard was it rated up there with the best tubes I have heard.   

I kinda sorta know there is a human element involved but when you listen for 25 sonic aspects as we do, even if a tube scores high in one area it might not in others. This is as objective as we can make a subjective subject.  What we are eliminating is expectation bias in a blind test. If a tube does well it is because 50 people rated it consistently high over the entire sonic spectrum. My part was easy, I merely designed the amps for the tests and along the line donated some tubes.


----------



## SHIMACM

I have tested over 150 valve combinations (driver and output). Synergy is everything. A chatham 6as7g can sound magnificent or horrible, depending on which valve drive it is paired with.

This goes for any outlet valve, including the TS5998.


----------



## SHIMACM

Deceneu808 said:


> I've found my holy combo with the Ken Rad VT231s



Is this sacred combination in Darkvoice or in Elise?

I had two Kenrads vt231 valves but they were made of clear glass. However, the internal construction is identical to that of black glass.

On Darkvoice this combination for me was average (Chatham 6as7g and KenRad vt231) so much so that I sold two KenRads vt231 I had.

I tested numerous combinations and found some sacred combinations, such as:

Chatham 6as7g and TS 6j5g(t).

Mullard 6080 and Fivre 6c5g

GEC CV4079 and Melz 1578 (69).

Bendix 6080 and Melz 1578 (59).

Mullard 6080 and Foton (50's).

Bendix 6080/Mullard 6080/GEC 6080 and GEC 6j5g.

Among others.


----------



## Paladin79

SHIMACM said:


> I have tested over 150 valve combinations (driver and output). Synergy is everything. A chatham 6as7g can sound magnificent or horrible, depending on which valve drive it is paired with.
> 
> This goes for any outlet valve, including the TS5998.


My numbers are considerably higher but then I have greater access because it is a group acquisition. For our purposes the Tung Sol gave the best results but then I designed the amp it plugs into and all cables for the amps and headphones. I am not going to invest $50,000 on my own on this experiment but I do have a sizable personal collection.   After this test we hope to move on to power tubes and agree as a group which 6sn7s show off differences in 6080's, 6as7G's, 5998's etc. I should note that volume levels are monitored since power tubes vary in gain as so some of the 6sn7 equivalents we tried. What we are doing is not about finding the best combinations but doing the best we can to rate specific tubes on an equal basis. Multiply 1900 times 30 power tubes and the numbers get staggering lol.  When we rated some DACS I heard 20 of them that I could not possibly hear at one location at any given time, many in the $5000 up range that group members owned. We have been using DAC a group picked as the best heard among those choices, we used the same music recorded for us in that test as well. 
 Right now we are waiting for some folks to be vaccinated, Covid has played hell with large gatherings and we must be patient.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> I have resoldered the pins on some Tung Sol 5998’s and that seems to help. I get no hum with GE 5998A’s, they are a much newer tube IMHO


Still waiting to get my hands on some GE 5998 (non ebay 😀)


----------



## HTSkywalker

whirlwind said:


> Both of those out put tubes sound great to my ears, and the RCA is pretty nice for some music too. I prefer a some what brighter driver with RCA.
> I totally agree....if you have enough tubes and enough time...there are so many nice combos to fit ones needs.
> Way too many to even write about  .   What ever combo it takes to synergize with the rest of your gear and your personal preference.
> If you want something Euphoric, play with tubes until something sounds good.


That would be a nice but expensive advice 😊
Better try RCA or Winged C for a cheap and nice category or TS or Chatham for a better one IMHO


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My local group and I are in the middle of testing over 1900 6SN7 equivalents using Four identical Tung Sol 5998’s as outputs. I have plenty of power tubes but some 6SN7’s sound awful no matter which power tube is selected. It would be fun to run some different power tubes with our top tier selections and see if in blind testing the results are similar.


Now that explains your intermittent presence in the forum lately😍😍
Always a tube related quest 😀😀


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> A group of fifty people will do the final comparisons of the top 52 that nine of us chose. Many of my group are engineers who help with setup and implementation. We use a scoring system and specific music recorded for these events and it has worked well in the past. Final testing can take an entire weekend or longer so this is not something for the timid lol. We do have a party after so it is also a fun event. One of the top tubes I have submitted that did well in preliminary tests have been heard by many on this site as I loaned it out, mind you those people and myself listened with various power tubes and the worst comment I heard was it rated up there with the best tubes I have heard.
> 
> I kinda sorta know there is a human element involved but when you listen for 25 sonic aspects as we do, even if a tube scores high in one area it might not in others. This is as objective as we can make a subjective subject.  What we are eliminating is expectation bias in a blind test. If a tube does well it is because 50 people rated it consistently high over the entire sonic spectrum. My part was easy, I merely designed the amps for the tests and along the line donated some tubes.


I believe this test is as precise and serious as it may ever get excluding government sponsored experiments done during WW. 😀
I believe Sen HD800/S and Utopia are being used too.


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> Is this sacred combination in Darkvoice or in Elise?
> 
> I had two Kenrads vt231 valves but they were made of clear glass. However, the internal construction is identical to that of black glass.
> 
> ...


You’re into some nice tube mating 👍


----------



## HTSkywalker

Paladin79 said:


> My numbers are considerably higher but then I have greater access because it is a group acquisition. For our purposes the Tung Sol gave the best results but then I designed the amp it plugs into and all cables for the amps and headphones. I am not going to invest $50,000 on my own on this experiment but I do have a sizable personal collection.   After this test we hope to move on to power tubes and agree as a group which 6sn7s show off differences in 6080's, 6as7G's, 5998's etc. I should note that volume levels are monitored since power tubes vary in gain as so some of the 6sn7 equivalents we tried. What we are doing is not about finding the best combinations but doing the best we can to rate specific tubes on an equal basis. Multiply 1900 times 30 power tubes and the numbers get staggering lol.  When we rated some DACS I heard 20 of them that I could not possibly hear at one location at any given time, many in the $5000 up range that group members owned. We have been using DAC a group picked as the best heard among those choices, we used the same music recorded for us in that test as well.
> Right now we are waiting for some folks to be vaccinated, Covid has played hell with large gatherings and we must be patient.


You only need to add a tube DAC like the Prima Luna and you can multiply the tube combination by a new variable 😊😊


----------



## Paladin79

HTSkywalker said:


> You only need to add a tube DAC like the Prima Luna and you can multiply the tube combination by a new variable 😊😊


They make very good equipment, I do have two Class A tube power amps but my DAC’s are all multibit.


----------



## SHIMACM

I have two DACs from Schiit. One MODI 3 and one MODI Multibit.

I've always heard that switching DACs doesn't influence the sound as much as switching amplifiers or headphones.

Is this statement correct?

Currently, I've been reading several reviews claiming that changing the DAC dramatically changes the sound.

So is this true, or is it just some people's exaggeration?


----------



## Paladin79 (Jul 8, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> I have two DACs from Schiit. One MODI 3 and one MODI Multibit.
> 
> I've always heard that switching DACs doesn't influence the sound as much as switching amplifiers or headphones.
> 
> ...


Doing a blind test with 20 of them a group of 50 people heard enough differences to agree upon them top to bottom. Even some Delta Sigmas did well compared to more expensive DACs. I was always taught that the input and output circuitries played a huge roll on their sound. I will also mention that a young woman with amazing hearing chose the order of finish that matched the average of the entire group.😜 I had those in fifth and sixth place reversed. There were no bizarre results, no one picked the top DAC’s at the bottom as if they all sounded the same.


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> I have two DACs from Schiit. One MODI 3 and one MODI Multibit.
> 
> I've always heard that switching DACs doesn't influence the sound as much as switching amplifiers or headphones.
> 
> ...


I believe every single component affect the sound somehow within the music chain but by the end the amp section is the bottleneck and DACs are as good as their design regardless of being tube based or not.


----------



## alkalama

hi guys, where are you buying the tubes? any website having big stock and fair prices?


----------



## HTSkywalker

alkalama said:


> hi guys, where are you buying the tubes? any website having big stock and fair prices?


Etsy or lowtechelec are ok:

https://www.etsy.com/

https://lowtechelec.com/


----------



## alkalama

HTSkywalker said:


> Etsy or lowtechelec are ok:
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/
> 
> https://lowtechelec.com/


Do you know something similar to lowtechelec for Europe?


----------



## HTSkywalker

alkalama said:


> Do you know something similar to lowtechelec for Europe?


Nope, wish I did but a fellow headfier @Deceneu808 maybe able to help as he lives in Europe.


----------



## leftside

SHIMACM said:


> I have two DACs from Schiit. One MODI 3 and one MODI Multibit.
> 
> I've always heard that switching DACs doesn't influence the sound as much as switching amplifiers or headphones.
> 
> Is this statement correct?


This hasn't been my experience. I've always noticed quite large differences between different DACs. I tend to keep the "old" DAC and compare directly against the "new" DAC before I sell one of the DACs. I also invite friends over for the shoot out, and let them listen to music they like via Roon/Tidal so that my "shiny new toy syndrome" doesn't bias me too much. We've always been in agreement which DAC sounds better.


----------



## SHIMACM

leftside said:


> This hasn't been my experience. I've always noticed quite large differences between different DACs. I tend to keep the "old" DAC and compare directly against the "new" DAC before I sell one of the DACs. I also invite friends over for the shoot out, and let them listen to music they like via Roon/Tidal so that my "shiny new toy syndrome" doesn't bias me too much. We've always been in agreement which DAC sounds better.



That one DAC sounds better than the other, I agree, but how much better?

I get a drastic sound improvement by hitting a set of tubes on my amp.

I also notice a drastic difference in sound with the replacement of headphones.

Is the difference between the DACs too drastic?

I have a $250 DAC, how much improvement could I get by switching to a DAC like a $10000 Chord Dave, for example.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 8, 2021)

Given the price difference, you'd likely convince yourself that the difference was dramatic even if it was not.  Human nature, I'm afraid.  😏


----------



## cddc

SHIMACM said:


> That one DAC sounds better than the other, I agree, but how much better?
> 
> I get a drastic sound improvement by hitting a set of tubes on my amp.
> 
> ...




You had the correct observation. 

Transducers like speakers/headphones have the most significant impact to a system, followed by the amps/tubes. DAC's, if they all do the digital to analog conversion correctly, their impact is minimal. The difference between DAC's is subtle, oftentimes much harder to tell.

I think the point to debate should be whether a Chord Dave is worth $10,000 vs a $250 DAC given the subtle change in sound


----------



## leftside

cddc said:


> You had the correct observation.
> 
> Transducers like speakers/headphones have the most significant impact to a system, followed by the amps/tubes. DAC's, if they all do the digital to analog conversion correctly, their impact is minimal. The difference between DAC's is subtle, oftentimes much harder to tell.


I respectfully disagree regarding DACs, but agree with you regarding speakers and headphones  

I only hear subtle differences between different tubes though. Noticeable, but subtle.


----------



## SHIMACM (Jul 8, 2021)

leftside said:


> I respectfully disagree regarding DACs, but agree with you regarding speakers and headphones
> 
> I only hear subtle differences between different tubes though. Noticeable, but subtle.



I feel a lot of difference between the valves, difference from day to night. That's right I'm talking about a humble Darkvoice. Maybe in better amplifiers this difference between the tubes is much smaller. But as I didn't have the opportunity to hear them, I refrain from giving an opinion.


----------



## Dogmatrix

SHIMACM said:


> I have two DACs from Schiit. One MODI 3 and one MODI Multibit.
> 
> I've always heard that switching DACs doesn't influence the sound as much as switching amplifiers or headphones.
> 
> ...


Measurements give a strong clue 
Headphones are measurably different from one to the other 
Amplifiers not so much particularly within audible range
Dac chips , I have seen no evidence of a measurable difference between dac chips in audible range
So what I think is going on is , the differences are due to interactions between the components in the listening chain rather than the components themselves
For example a high sensitivity low impedance headphone will sound very different on an OTL tube amp compared to a solid state , on the other hand a low sensitivity high impedance headphone may exhibit little or no difference between the same amplifiers .
Interactions between the output impedance of the amp and the impedance of the headphone create audible and measurable difference
Other factors such as power delivery ie high current or high voltage , class , balanced or single ended are also in play but still in terms of interaction with the chain
When blind tests are conducted between various dacs I believe what is being compared is the interaction of other factors such as usb interface , implementation of the dac chip and the output section of the dac relating to the input section of the amp .
Exaggeration , expectation bias , placebo and other psychological factors cannot be underestimated not to mention the possibility of financial reward for a glowing review


----------



## Deceneu808

alkalama said:


> hi guys, where are you buying the tubes? any website having big stock and fair prices?


I'm just using ebay and do most of my searches within the EU.


----------



## LoryWiv

Deceneu808 said:


> I'm just using ebay and do most of my searches within the EU.


Also always worth checking the classifieds here on head-fi.


----------



## cddc

SHIMACM said:


> I feel a lot of difference between the valves, difference from day to night. That's right I'm talking about a humble Darkvoice. Maybe in better amplifiers this difference between the tubes is much smaller. But as I didn't have the opportunity to hear them, I refrain from giving an opinion.



Even with high-end tube amps, such as WA33, WA5, BHSE, DNA's, ..., folks still can hear huge differences between tubes. That's why a NOS WE300B tube can still fetch lots of $$$


----------



## HTSkywalker

SHIMACM said:


> That one DAC sounds better than the other, I agree, but how much better?
> 
> I get a drastic sound improvement by hitting a set of tubes on my amp.
> 
> ...


$9,750 worth of improvements give or take 😍😍😍 at least when you know the price difference and not in a blind test for sure lol


----------



## HTSkywalker

Ripper2860 said:


> Given the price difference, you'd likely convince yourself that the difference was dramatic even if it was not.  Human nature, I'm afraid.  😏


Exactly, just hide the prices in any restaurant menu and pick your favorite dish, check the prices after, it goes both ways and same for music or any other thing in life. good things never come cheap.


----------



## HTSkywalker

cddc said:


> You had the correct observation.
> 
> Transducers like speakers/headphones have the most significant impact to a system, followed by the amps/tubes. DAC's, if they all do the digital to analog conversion correctly, their impact is minimal. The difference between DAC's is subtle, oftentimes much harder to tell.
> 
> I think the point to debate should be whether a Chord Dave is worth $10,000 vs a $250 DAC given the subtle change in sound


Sometimes the price tag reflects the components reliability and life span as well as amount of R&D and craftmanship as well as most of the time the brand name. Definitely overpriced and could be cloned for cheap in China but never the same feeling or reliability.


----------



## alkalama

Deceneu808 said:


> I'm just using ebay and do most of my searches within the EU.


Thanks, gonna check it


----------



## bcowen (Jul 9, 2021)

alkalama said:


> Thanks, gonna check it


There's also Billington and Langrex to look at.  Both have solid reputations and I've purchased from them many times over the years with good success.  They are in the UK and I don't know how (or if) Brexit has affected shipping/customs fees, etc., but at least they're on your side of the pond.    Neither are the cheapest, but they charge fair and reasonable prices and stand behind what they sell. You_ can _get some good deals on Ebay (most of _my_ stash has come from Ebay sellers), but until you get some familiarity with the good/bad players and red flag points in listings, Langrex and Billington might be safer options.  Langrex sells on Ebay as well as through their storefront, but not sure if Billington sells on Ebay at all.

https://web211.secure-secure.co.uk/tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/default2.asp

https://www.langrex.co.uk/


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> There's also Billington and Langrex to look at.  Both have solid reputations and I've purchased from them many times over the years with good success.  They are in the UK and I don't know how (or if) Brexit has affected shipping/customs fees, etc., but at least they're on your side of the pond.    Neither are the cheapest, but they charge fair and reasonable prices and stand behind what they sell. You_ can _get some good deals on Ebay (most of _my_ stash has come from Ebay sellers), but until you get some familiarity with the good/bad players and red flag points in listings, Langrex and Billington might be safer choices.  Langrex sells on Ebay as well as through their storefront, but not sure if Billington sells on Ebay at all.
> 
> https://web211.secure-secure.co.uk/tube-and-valve-electronics.co.uk/default2.asp
> 
> https://www.langrex.co.uk/



Billington does have an Ebay store as well, but I believe it’s easier to deal with them directly from their own site.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/billingtonexport/Other-/_i.html?_storecat=1


----------



## whirlwind (Jul 9, 2021)

leftside said:


> This hasn't been my experience. I've always noticed quite large differences between different DACs. I tend to keep the "old" DAC and compare directly against the "new" DAC before I sell one of the DACs. I also invite friends over for the shoot out, and let them listen to music they like via Roon/Tidal so that my "shiny new toy syndrome" doesn't bias me too much. We've always been in agreement which DAC sounds better.


I kept my old PS Audio Nuwave dac when I bought the Spring dac....I compared for a couple of weeks but it was clear that the Spring was better to my ears.
It was more expensive so there could be an argument over which one was the best bang for the dollar...but not what dac performed better to me.

There was a time when I did not feel the dac was a big deal.


----------



## SHIMACM

Dogmatrix said:


> Measurements give a strong clue
> Headphones are measurably different from one to the other
> Amplifiers not so much particularly within audible range
> Dac chips , I have seen no evidence of a measurable difference between dac chips in audible range
> ...



With the little equipment I have, I can confirm what you said.

I have an office combo with AKG K7xx (high sensitivity and low impedance) hooked up to an Arcam Rhead amp, hooked up to a MODI 3.

My home combo is a Beyerdynamic T1 (low sensitivity and high impedance) connected to a Darkvoice with about 30 valves (different driver and power) connected to a MODI Multibit.

Both combos sound really good to my ears.

Now, if I turn AKG on Darkvoice, it gets bad.

If I turn on the T1 on Arcam the sound is thin and a little bright.

The AKG beats T1 on Arcam easily.

And T1 destroys the AKG in Darkvoice.

As I said above, a driver or power valve can sound wonderfully good or bad depending on the valve that comes with it.

So, this shows that the issue of synergy is very important.

So, the DAC has to be analyzed together with the other components of the system.

The bad thing about this is that I will necessarily have to buy and test it myself, I won't be able to be guided by other people's testimonials.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Does anyone know, what are the differences between GEC 6AS7G A1834 and GEC 6AS7G CV2523 tubes? Are these just different production codes, or are there some bigger differences between them?


----------



## JTbbb

CaptainFantastic said:


> Does anyone know, what are the differences between GEC 6AS7G A1834 and GEC 6AS7G CV2523 tubes? Are these just different production codes, or are there some bigger differences between them?



I don’t think there is any difference whatsoever. I have had one of each in my Euforia AE and it sounds just the same as my pair of 1834’s


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Does anyone know, what are the differences between GEC 6AS7G A1834 and GEC 6AS7G CV2523 tubes? Are these just different production codes, or are there some bigger differences between them?



Yes, they are identical. This is essentially marketing. Those labeled CV2523 were destined for the British military. And those labeled A1834 were destined for the domestic market. So as long as they were manufactured at about the same time, they can be considered the same.


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> Yes, they are identical. This is essentially marketing. Those labeled CV2523 were destined for the British military. And those labeled A1834 were destined for the domestic market. So as long as they were manufactured at about the same time, they can be considered the same.



I have to say though, that my pair of 1834’s are the curved brown base ones. And they have FAR SUPERIOR SQ 😀😀😀.


----------



## gibosi

And after I painted my black-based 1834s brown, they are amazing!   lol


----------



## gibosi

Rolled in a pair of French Thompson CSF 6336A output tubes. Take note: These tubes pull 5amps of heater current, so 10 amps for the pair. Essentially, one 6336 is equivalent to two 6080s. Make very sure your amp can handle this load before chasing after these.

This configuration, with a British Cossor 53KU rectifier and a pair of triode-strapped Holland-made EL42 drivers sounds mighty fine.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> And after I painted my black-based 1834s brown, they are amazing!   lol


Well, you are knowledgeable and experienced and know to use only cryo-treated, quantum-tunneled audiophile paint.  Newbies may not know that.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Well, you are knowledgeable and experienced and know to use only cryo-treated, quantum-tunneled audiophile paint.  Newbies may not know that.



Is that what people think? Really? Well, I'm a little reluctant to reveal the secret, but in fact I just used ordinary brown Rust-Oleum paint. And the result was indeed amazing!  lol


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Is that what people think? Really? Well, I'm a little reluctant to reveal the secret, but in fact I just used ordinary brown Rust-Oleum paint. And the result was indeed amazing!  lol


LOL!  You should try dark red.  Look what that did for RCA and the 5691 and 5692.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> LOL!  You should try dark red.  Look what that did for RCA and the 5691 and 5692.



That's a very intriguing idea and I believe I have some dark red Rust-Oleum paint in the basement. But on second thought, I worry that it might transform a GEC 6AS7G into an RCA 6AS7G? lol 

Well, enough of this silliness for now.... Time to get some shuteye....


----------



## tubebuyer2020

bcowen said:


> ...


@bcowen would you sell me your General Electric Company 6AS7Gs for a good price - like $30 a piece?


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @bcowen would you sell me your General Electric Company 6AS7Gs for a good price - like $30 a piece?


I see what you did there.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I “c” what you did there.


FTFY…😜….[ Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021 ]


----------



## HTSkywalker

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @bcowen would you sell me your General Electric Company 6AS7Gs for a good price - like $30 a piece?


Good try 😆😆😆


----------



## raindownthunda

Not a bad price for a pair of NOS Mullard 6080’s. The seller says they have 20 of them: https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


----------



## exchez

raindownthunda said:


> Not a bad price for a pair of NOS Mullard 6080’s. The seller says they have 20 of them: https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


I actually prefer a more focused tube. All kidding aside, even including shipping from UK, it's not a bad deal. I would love to pair them with my Mullard 6DJ8s and Brimar EZ80s to get a full British rig going.


----------



## bcowen

exchez said:


> I actually prefer a more focused tube.


ROFL!!   Yeah, really good deal, and really bad photography.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

raindownthunda said:


> Not a bad price for a pair of NOS Mullard 6080’s. The seller says they have 20 of them: https://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-60...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


I bought three of these recently and had one crap out right off the bat via a nice arc in the tube (not from this seller).  

That's just my experience.  The other two I bought were fine.  All were at lower prices than normal though.  All in original packaging.

Take it for what it's worth!


----------



## Ripper2860

PsilocybinCube said:


> I bought three of these recently and had one crap out right off the bat via a nice arc in the tube (not from this seller).
> 
> That's just my experience.  The other two I bought were fine.  All were at lower prices than normal though.  All in original packaging.
> 
> Take it for what it's worth!


I had a similar experience.  Bought 2 and one flared and crapped out after placing it in my tester.  The 2nd one was fine.

It was a @bcowen refurbished tester, so I could never rule it out as the cause, but seeing as it happened to you, I'll write it off as a bad tube.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I had a similar experience.  Bought 2 and one flared and crapped out after placing it in my tester.  The 2nd one was fine.
> 
> It was a @bcowen refurbished tester, so I could never rule it out as the cause, but seeing as it happened to you, I'll write it off as a bad tube.


Testers that I refurbish are calibrated only for GE tubes, and since GE's comprise the majority of your 8 tube collection, I figured that would be a good setup.  No?


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm not going to reply to your post above with anything other than 'pfffft', as it is not worthy of any other response.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

bcowen said:


> Testers that I refurbish are calibrated only for GE tubes, and since GE's comprise the majority of your 8 tube collection, I figured that would be a good setup.  No?



I honestly don't understand your hatred of GE tubes. 

I have had a range of GE tubes, and I haven't had any that were bad. The worst sounding ones were merely average. 

Even if GE did make bad tubes, it wasn't GE's fault. They built tubes to meet the spec listed in their contract. In other words, if GE made a crap tube, it is only because someone wanted GE to make a crap tube.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 30, 2021)

I suspect that there are deep-seated psychological traumas associated with Bill's hatred of GE tubes. Trust me - you do not want to open that Pandora's box.


----------



## Tjj226 Angel

Ripper2860 said:


> I suspect that there are deep-seated psychological traumas associated with Bill's  hatred of GE. Trust me - you do not want to open that Pandora's box.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Testers that I refurbish are calibrated only for GE tubes, and since GE's comprise the majority of your 8 tube collection, I figured that would be a good setup.  No?


Definitely the last tester you calibrated is a GE calibrated one 😆😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

Tjj226 Angel said:


> I honestly don't understand your hatred of GE tubes.
> 
> I have had a range of GE tubes, and I haven't had any that were bad. The worst sounding ones were merely average.
> 
> Even if GE did make bad tubes, it wasn't GE's fault. They built tubes to meet the spec listed in their contract. In other words, if GE made a crap tube, it is only because someone wanted GE to make a crap tube.


Sounds like a current GE employee 😎😎


----------



## maxpudding

Reading through the earlier pages of this thread when I was just started collecting tubes, @bcowen’s mantra of “GE bad” must’ve gotten into my head cause I’d have the tendency to steer away from anything “GE”. Having said that, the GE JG-6100, a type of the 6C4 tube, is a good sounding tube. I use two of them in my C2A with various power tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Tjj226 Angel said:


> I honestly don't understand your hatred of GE tubes.
> 
> I have had a range of GE tubes, and I haven't had any that were bad. The worst sounding ones were merely average.
> 
> Even if GE did make bad tubes, it wasn't GE's fault. They built tubes to meet the spec listed in their contract. In other words, if GE made a crap tube, it is only because someone wanted GE to make a crap tube.


I have obviously heard only a tiny fraction of the tubes GE ever made, but the ones I _have_ heard are below average at best and go downhill from there. Just my experience of course, but if it helps any I hate Philips ECG tubes even worse.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

bcowen said:


> ...but if it helps any I hate Philips ECG tubes even worse.



What about Shuguang?


----------



## gibosi (Jul 31, 2021)

GE production prior to 1932 was quite good. But as a result of a federal consent decree they were forced to exit the radio business. After the war, they re-entered the radio business, but rather than building new factories, they acquired Ken-Rad, and soon began to replace the existing Ken-Rad assembly line equipment with new equipment of their own design. And many, including me, believe that the Ken Rad production is much better when used in our amps. However, it's important to remember that the tubes we currently use for audio were never designed for audio, and may well have been among the very best for their intended use.

As always, my ears and my gear. YMMV.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

gibosi said:


> GE production prior to 1932 was quite good. But as a result of a federal consent decree they were forced to exit the radio business. After the war, they re-entered the radio business, but rather than building new factories, they acquired Ken-Rad, and soon began to replace the existing Ken-Rad assembly line equipment with new equipment of their own design. And many, including me, believe that the Ken Rad production is much better when used in our amps. However, it's important to remember that the tubes we currently use for audio were never designed for audio, and may well have been among the very best for their intended use.
> 
> As always, my ears and my gear. YMMV.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

These vintage ads are a freaking gold-mine:









@bcowen I don't remember receiving my Emurgentcy Kit from you last Christmas  , I want to hear the big improvement in tone!


----------



## bcowen (Jul 31, 2021)

tubebuyer2020 said:


> What about Shuguang?


I probably have some of those with other branding.  Ruby Tubes maybe?  Have some of those.  Ruby didn't manufacture tubes, they just tested and then put their name on them.  China sourced for sure -- could be Shuguang, could be something else.  If Ruby's _were_ from Shuguang, then I'll say they weren't all that bad. Kind of unremarkable in most every regard and easily bettered, but not offensive (at least to my ears).  I had a couple Ruby-labeled EL-34's red plate on me, and I've never used any since.


----------



## bcowen

tubebuyer2020 said:


> @bcowen I don't remember receiving my Emurgentcy Kit from you last Christmas  , I want to hear the big improvement in tone!


Dang it!  The USPS must have lost it.  I'll use FedEx this year.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> I have obviously heard only a tiny fraction of the tubes GE ever made, but the ones I _have_ heard are below average at best and go downhill from there. Just my experience of course, but if it helps any I hate Philips ECG tubes even worse.



😂😂


----------



## HTSkywalker

For me, just knowing that a GE tube is in place my expectations go to the low side. Probably I should try a blind test but am pretty sure that results would still stand the same.


bcowen said:


> I have obviously heard only a tiny fraction of the tubes GE ever made, but the ones I _have_ heard are below average at best and go downhill from there. Just my experience of course, but if it helps any I hate Philips ECG tubes even worse.


----------



## LoryWiv

HTSkywalker said:


> For me, just knowing that a GE tube is in place my expectations go to the low side. Probably I should try a blind test but am pretty sure that results would still stand the same.


I am running a $20 pair of 1960 GE 6BL7 drivers with top of scale spendy GEC KT88 power tubes (they are worth it) and the synergy is FAR better than expected. Really a very nice listen with acoustic jazz and several other genres I've tried. IMHO always good to keep an open mind lest you cut yourself off from some unexpected pleasures! Just my 2 cents, probably worth even less, but I'm having fun with these!


----------



## exchez

LoryWiv said:


> I am running a $20 pair of 1960 GE 6BL7 drivers with top of scale spendy GEC KT88 power tubes (they are worth it) and the synergy is FAR better than expected. Really a very nice listen with acoustic jazz and several other genres I've tried. IMHO always good to keep an open mind lest you cut yourself off from some unexpected pleasures! Just my 2 cents, probably worth even less, but I'm having fun with these!   the early 1960s. Peak tube.


Yeah, early 1960s. Peak tube.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> I am running a $20 pair of 1960 GE 6BL7 drivers with top of scale spendy GEC KT88 power tubes (they are worth it) and the synergy is FAR better than expected. Really a very nice listen with acoustic jazz and several other genres I've tried. IMHO always good to keep an open mind lest you cut yourself off from some unexpected pleasures! Just my 2 cents, probably worth even less, but I'm having fun with these!


On the bright side, since I'm not stashing up on GE's that leaves more supply for everyone else.


----------



## gibosi

LoryWiv said:


> I am running a $20 pair of 1960 GE 6BL7 drivers with top of scale spendy GEC KT88 power tubes (they are worth it) and the synergy is FAR better than expected. Really a very nice listen with acoustic jazz and several other genres I've tried. IMHO always good to keep an open mind lest you cut yourself off from some unexpected pleasures! Just my 2 cents, probably worth even less, but I'm having fun with these!



I've used a quad of 1953 GE 6BX7 as output tubes and they sound pretty good. But to my ears, Tung-Sol are better.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Today’s score!


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> Today’s score!


Sweet!  Those look to be in beautiful shape.  And one of my favorites in the Incubus amp.


----------



## fuzzroffe

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  Those look to be in beautiful shape.  And one of my favorites in the Incubus amp.


They’re in great shape, never been used, and they both have the same production code 🙂 The only bummer is that I didn’t get the boxes, they had been water damaged.


----------



## HTSkywalker

LoryWiv said:


> I am running a $20 pair of 1960 GE 6BL7 drivers with top of scale spendy GEC KT88 power tubes (they are worth it) and the synergy is FAR better than expected. Really a very nice listen with acoustic jazz and several other genres I've tried. IMHO always good to keep an open mind lest you cut yourself off from some unexpected pleasures! Just my 2 cents, probably worth even less, but I'm having fun with these!


Sure I totally agree 👍
Despite the bad reputation of the GE tubes, giving it a spin won't hurt and may ends up a positive experience.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> On the bright side, since I'm not stashing up on GE's that leaves more supply for everyone else.


Not the 5998 Though, long gone by now 🤣
Will be happy to find one though outside eBay.


----------



## HTSkywalker

fuzzroffe said:


> Today’s score!


Where did you get it from ? good catch


----------



## fuzzroffe

HTSkywalker said:


> Where did you get it from ? good catch


I got them locally here in Norway. They were around $80 for the pair which sounds pricey, but anything from the US would add shipping and tax so it’s not bad really.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

fuzzroffe said:


> I got them locally here in Norway. They were around $80 for the pair which sounds pricey, but anything from the US would add shipping and tax so it’s not bad really.



$80 sounds pricey?  For a pair? In that condition? It's an absolutely great deal in 2021. Even without any tax or shipping, I don't think you'd find that in the U.S. Well done!


----------



## fuzzroffe

CaptainFantastic said:


> $80 sounds pricey?  For a pair? In that condition? It's an absolutely great deal in 2021. Even without any tax or shipping, I don't think you'd find that in the U.S. Well done!


Haha, clearly I’m not buying enough tubes! I didn’t think the prices had gone up much 😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

fuzzroffe said:


> I got them locally here in Norway. They were around $80 for the pair which sounds pricey, but anything from the US would add shipping and tax so it’s not bad really.


Not pricey at all even compared to US prices, it's a good catch for this pair.


----------



## HTSkywalker

fuzzroffe said:


> Haha, clearly I’m not buying enough tubes! I didn’t think the prices had gone up much 😄


Any website for the seller ?


----------



## fuzzroffe

HTSkywalker said:


> Any website for the seller ?


No website I'm afraid, it was a private seller. These were the only Chathams he had. He did have a lot of other cool stuff though, I'm hoping he can organize it and make a list of the tubes.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> $80 sounds pricey?  For a pair? In that condition? It's an absolutely great deal in 2021. Even without any tax or shipping, I don't think you'd find that in the U.S. Well done!


Totally agree.  You'd be lucky to find a _single_ tube like that for $80 in the US.


----------



## HTSkywalker

fuzzroffe said:


> No website I'm afraid, it was a private seller. These were the only Chathams he had. He did have a lot of other cool stuff though, I'm hoping he can organize it and make a list of the tubes.


Great that would be very helpful especially if he can ship overseas 👍👍


----------



## fuzzroffe

Aww, they look like cute little mini 6AS7’s 😄


----------



## LoryWiv

fuzzroffe said:


> Aww, they look like cute little mini 6AS7’s 😄


Perhaps they'll get bigger when they grow up?


----------



## Galapac

fuzzroffe said:


> Aww, they look like cute little mini 6AS7’s 😄


How do they sound?


----------



## fuzzroffe

Galapac said:


> How do they sound?


I’ve read good things about them, but I won’t be able to test them until I get home in a few days.


----------



## HTSkywalker

fuzzroffe said:


> I’ve read good things about them, but I won’t be able to test them until I get home in a few days.


Let us know 🙂


----------



## attmci

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1942699270...,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid

All my clear-top 5998 looks like this.

This tube labelled as 5998/421A.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/194269927041?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=3056db6f6529467d985c68dfea0dca3d&bu=43143433688&ut=RU&osub=-1~1&crd=20210804074604&segname=11021&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,ut=ut,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid
> 
> All my clear-top 5998 looks like this.
> 
> This tube labelled as 5998/421A.



Interesting. All of my 5998s and 421As have slightly rounded, not quite rectangular plastic pieces at the top. Only my TS/Chatham 6AS7Gs have the rectangular shape there.


----------



## m17xr2b (Aug 4, 2021)

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/194269927041?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=3056db6f6529467d985c68dfea0dca3d&bu=43143433688&ut=RU&osub=-1~1&crd=20210804074604&segname=11021&sojTags=ch=ch,bu=bu,ut=ut,osub=osub,crd=crd,segname=segname,chnl=mkcid
> 
> All my clear-top 5998 looks like this.
> 
> This tube labelled as 5998/421A.


Are you sure?

Grey plates has been a Western Electric thing on early 421A and 422A and later black plates were added(which I prefer), I've never seen tung sol clear top with grey plates, picture please?


----------



## JTbbb

It looks the same as these.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Has anyone tried these 6080s? Are they worth the high asking price? I saw it a while back and there were something like 12 available, seems like people have been buying.

https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6080-gec-nos-valve-tube-lc94/


----------



## JTbbb (Aug 4, 2021)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Has anyone tried these 6080s? Are they worth the high asking price? I saw it a while back and there were something like 12 available, seems like people have been buying.
> 
> https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6080-gec-nos-valve-tube-lc94/



I have just checked eBay and there are some for £75, 10 available. Look the same.

Edit. Available from Billinghurst.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JTbbb said:


> I have just checked eBay and there are some for £75, 10 available. Look the same.
> 
> Edit. Available from Billinghurst.



I guess those are also from Langrex and just used, not "NOS".


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> I have just checked eBay and there are some for £75, 10 available. Look the same.
> 
> Edit. Available from Billinghurst.


Billington (Exports)?


----------



## tintinsnowydog

The GEC 6080s are a really nice sounding tube, very different from the GEC 6AS7. Much warmer and rolled off treble. Really nice midrange though- I like to think of it as a more balanced Mullard 6080


----------



## jonathan c

tintinsnowydog said:


> The GEC 6080s are a really nice sounding tube, very different from the GEC 6AS7. Much warmer and rolled off treble. Really nice midrange though- I like to think of it as a more balanced Mullard 6080


When using my Woo WA3, my favourite tube combination _is_ the GEC 6080 (CV 5008) and two Brimar CV 455 (KB/FB Footscray: 1956)!


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> Billington (Exports)?



Ah, they are as suggested above from Langrex.


----------



## attmci

There is a GEC 6as7g NIB sold for 380+30 within an hour.


----------



## raindownthunda

Are these genuine or GE re-brand?
Says made in USA so safe to assume re-brand? https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6080-6as7w-telefunken-nos-boxed-valve-tube-lc95/


----------



## fuzzroffe

raindownthunda said:


> Are these genuine or GE re-brand?
> Says made in USA so safe to assume re-brand? https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6080-6as7w-telefunken-nos-boxed-valve-tube-lc95/


Yeah, those are rebranded GE tubes, I’ve got a pair of them.
I think I paid £36 for the pair from Watford Valves a year ago, and they still have GE 6080s for £12 a piece.


----------



## Galapac

raindownthunda said:


> Are these genuine or GE re-brand?
> Says made in USA so safe to assume re-brand? https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6080-6as7w-telefunken-nos-boxed-valve-tube-lc95/


I'm surprised Langrex would sell these but at least they are not trying to dupe anyone outside of the price. I have seen sellers on eBay try to sell these as genuine but you can tell by the GE etchings on the side (not shown in the Langrex pic) or the number code under the logo which was not Telefunken date standard.


----------



## fuzzroffe

The Chatham 6AS7 sounds amazing in my preamp, it might be my new favorite  I have to do a comparison with my 7236 tubes next.


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> The Chatham 6AS7 sounds amazing in my preamp, it might be my new favorite  I have to do a comparison with my 7236 tubes next.


That is one gorgeous tube (and really nice photo too)!  Looks like it just rolled out of the factory yesterday.  

Be interested in your take on the 7236 in your amp.  I have the Cetron 7236 that I like OK, but the Chatham pretty well clobbers it.  Could be amp/'phone dependent too, so interested in how things fare in your setup.


----------



## fuzzroffe

bcowen said:


> That is one gorgeous tube (and really nice photo too)!  Looks like it just rolled out of the factory yesterday.
> 
> Be interested in your take on the 7236 in your amp.  I have the Cetron 7236 that I like OK, but the Chatham pretty well clobbers it.  Could be amp/'phone dependent too, so interested in how things fare in your setup.


I have Tung-Sol, Cetron and Sylvania 7236 and I think they’re all very good. The gain of the 7236 is roughly double that of a 6AS7 and that’s pretty noticeable in this preamp. 
The Tung-Sol and Cetron sound identical to me, clean and neutral with a wide soundstage. The Sylvania is probably my favorite of them, it’s very very similar, just a tiny bit warmer sounding.
So I guess the big fight will be between the Sylvania and the Chatham


----------



## LoryWiv (Aug 15, 2021)

bcowen said:


> That is one gorgeous tube (and really nice photo too)!  Looks like it just rolled out of the factory yesterday.
> 
> Be interested in your take on the 7236 in your amp.  I have the Cetron 7236 that I like OK, but the Chatham pretty well clobbers it.  Could be* amp/'phone dependent* too, so interested in how things fare in your setup.


I agree synergy with one's entire chain is key, With my Feliks-Audio Elise --> ZMF Auteur the Chatham 6AS7G are a bit underwhelming, albeit an unfair comparison as I previously ran GEC 6080 powers. My Chatham's are from 1954, pictured below. I may put them up for sale. PM me if interested.


----------



## Ninja Theory (Aug 17, 2021)

Hi. New to the thread - and tubes in general. I recently picked up a tube amp (Little Dot MK VI+). Can anyone tell me if these output tubes are any good: RCA 6AS7 Grey Plate (apparently 1956).

Things I like: Good instrument separation. Decent stage. Bass, warm but controlled. Lush mids. Sparkly, extended treble (I also quite enjoy rolled off treble, but not too rolled off).

Things I prefer to avoid: General muddiness. Bloated bass. When I can't follow an instrument through the mix.

Given my preferences, would there be an obvious choice of 6AS7 output tube you can recommend that I should look at?


----------



## fuzzroffe

Ninja Theory said:


> Hi. New to the thread - and tubes in general. I recently picked up a tube amp (Little Dot MK VI+). Can anyone tell me if these output tubes are any good: RCA 6AS7 Grey Plate (apparently 1956).
> 
> Things I like: Good instrument separation. Decent stage. Bass, warm but controlled. Lush mids. Sparkly, extended treble (I also quite enjoy rolled off treble, but not too rolled off).
> 
> ...


I don’t have a 6AS7 headphone amp, but I’ve used the RCA 6AS7 in my preamp. It’s a very good tube, I like it a lot. Mine is an old bottom getter version, probably late 50s. It sounds warm without getting muddy or having much treble rolloff. The soundstage/imaging was what impressed me the most and it was my favorite for a good while. You can still get them at reasonable prices too.


----------



## Ninja Theory

fuzzroffe said:


> I don’t have a 6AS7 headphone amp, but I’ve used the RCA 6AS7 in my preamp. It’s a very good tube, I like it a lot. Mine is an old bottom getter version, probably late 50s. It sounds warm without getting muddy or having much treble rolloff. The soundstage/imaging was what impressed me the most and it was my favorite for a good while. You can still get them at reasonable prices too.


Thanks for this. I have the RCA 6AS7 and the Mullard 6080 (rebranded Philips, made in the UK). I believe the UK-made Mullard is also a very good tube. Both these sets are quad matched. I'll be able to spend more time with both of them tomorrow. I had a quick listen today but didn't have much time. I really enjoyed what I heard from both of them. Decisions decisions... I prefer to settle on a tube for a good while and really get to know it before rolling.


----------



## exchez

Ninja Theory said:


> Hi. New to the thread - and tubes in general. I recently picked up a tube amp (Little Dot MK VI+). Can anyone tell me if these output tubes are any good: RCA 6AS7 Grey Plate (apparently 1956).
> 
> Things I like: Good instrument separation. Decent stage. Bass, warm but controlled. Lush mids. Sparkly, extended treble (I also quite enjoy rolled off treble, but not too rolled off).
> 
> ...



Welcome! Unless they have that amp, you gotta take any tube recs with a grain of salt. With that said:

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3
http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
In my experience with a WA2 amp, the RCA 6AS7G (i.e., "coke bottle" shape) is a clear step above the American 6080s offered by RCA, GE and Sylvania. They're more dynamic, a little faster and more detailed with nice mids. Given your need for a matched quad you could also look into Svetlana 6AS7G/6H5C or Thomson 6080WA (the Svetlana being the better of the two IMO). If you got some real money to spend I would go for GEC 6080s or Tung Sol 5998s (hint hint: some recently dropped on the Classifieds).


----------



## CaptainFantastic

I never saw 421As like this before. Are they really Tung Sol 421A tubes? (I am not interested regardless, just curious)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294342649280?hash=item44883065c0:g:QdgAAOSw7LthHKXU


----------



## maxpudding

CaptainFantastic said:


> I never saw 421As like this before. Are they really Tung Sol 421A tubes? (I am not interested regardless, just curious)
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294342649280?hash=item44883065c0:g:QdgAAOSw7LthHKXU


They look like a pair of 7236s


----------



## tintinsnowydog

CaptainFantastic said:


> I never saw 421As like this before. Are they really Tung Sol 421A tubes? (I am not interested regardless, just curious)
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294342649280?hash=item44883065c0:g:QdgAAOSw7LthHKXU


Those are definitely not 421A, and as said above they are TS 7236 tubes. They sound great, but perhaps not for that price!


----------



## JTbbb

Hello there, I have a query for the tube testers out there.

When using a tester set up to test a type of tube, where do you refer to establish a minimum good value, or indeed what the NOS value would be? Or would you refer to the meter? Or is it data sheets that go with the tester?

For example:- I have a pair of WE421a’s circa 73/74 which have been tested on a calibrated AVO MKIV Valve Characteristic Meter for PC/TC
(Plate Current/Trans Conductance) with the following Anode readings, A1 76/11.2  A2 83/11.9,  A1 74/11.2  A2 74/11.3

Now I can see that the plates match well, and indeed they can be referred to as a matched pair. Also, I’m told these figures are very good. But going back to my original question, referring to what?

Paladin79, these are the pair that passed through your hands on the way to me, and I know you tested them. But certainly on a different tester? With obviously different readings. A fairly long time ago! So am not expecting you to remember!

I have a feeling that there may well be no definitive answer to this judging by what I have read, whereby the same two valve test machines could give different readings, especially if set up by two testers.


----------



## CAJames (Aug 18, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> Hello there, I have a query for the tube testers out there.
> 
> When using a tester set up to test a type of tube, where do you refer to establish a minimum good value, or indeed what the NOS value would be? Or would you refer to the meter? Or is it data sheets that go with the tester?
> 
> ...



I wasn't familiar with your tester so I googled the manual, an it actually starts with an excellent discussion of your question. Many testers (like my TV-7D/U) are "good/bad" testers that try to answer the question is this tube good? or maybe more exactly is it likely to fail sooner rather than later. And to answer that question with a single measurement out of the entire phase space of plate voltages, cathode currents etc. is pretty close to impossible but engineers and AVO, Hickok et al have done a remarkable job  and all their knowledge is distilled into the test parameters for our testers. But your tester allows you to do (much) more apparently. You can actually test your tubes across a wide variety of operating points that you can compare directly with the curves on the tube data sheets. And if you're willing to spend the time doing that it will give you a much better answer for how close to new your tubes are, and also a much better indication of how well matched they are over their operating range, not just one point.

So, I guess to answer your question directly, I use the test data for me tester, which is my only choice. You have the option of doing much more.


----------



## m17xr2b

The best tester is the circuit it's being used in. Bottlehead has specific values of voltages when doing testing, as long as those are within limits the tube and amp are according to spec, nothing more nothing less.   

Tubes in the crack will last a long, long time. Come to think of it, has anyone had a new tube fizzle out from use and needed replacement?


----------



## CAJames

m17xr2b said:


> The best tester is the circuit it's being used in....



That's a great point, esp. considering no one dies if a tube fails in our headphone amp. For me I typically test tubes when I get them, to be sure I'm getting what I paid for, but when it comes to actual use I do that by ear. If I can hear a difference when I swap in a new tube the old one is done, regardless of what the tester says.


----------



## JTbbb

CAJames said:


> I wasn't familiar with your tester so I googled the manual, an it actually starts with an excellent discussion of your question. Many testers (like my TV-7D/U) are "good/bad" testers that try to answer the question is this tube good? or maybe more exactly is it likely to fail sooner rather than later. And to answer that question with a single measurement out of the entire phase space of plate voltages, cathode currents etc. is pretty close to impossible but engineers and AVO, Hickok et al have done a remarkable job  and all their knowledge is distilled into the test parameters for our testers. But your tester allows you to do (much) more apparently. You can actually test your tubes across a wide variety of operating points that you can compare directly with the curves on the tube data sheets. And if you're willing to spend the time doing that it will give you a much better answer for how close to new your tubes are, and also a much better indication of how well matched they are over their operating range, not just one point.
> 
> So, I guess to answer your question directly, I use the test data for me tester, which is my only choice. You have the option of doing much more.



Thank you very much for the reply. Yes I had also looked at the manual and gleaned some information, it is a large manual! Alas, the AVO is not mine but belongs to an electronics engineer, especially valves, and knows his stuff including rebuilding and calibrating tube testers!


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> I never saw 421As like this before. Are they really Tung Sol 421A tubes? (I am not interested regardless, just curious)
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294342649280?hash=item44883065c0:g:QdgAAOSw7LthHKXU


Only Western Electric made the 421A.


----------



## maxpudding

m17xr2b said:


> The best tester is the circuit it's being used in. Bottlehead has specific values of voltages when doing testing, as long as those are within limits the tube and amp are according to spec, nothing more nothing less.
> 
> Tubes in the crack will last a long, long time. Come to think of it, has anyone had a new tube fizzle out from use and needed replacement?


I had a “NOS” tube that went white on arrival. The seller quickly send a replacement tube.


----------



## Renexx

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164508236603?hash=item264d747b3b:g:MIMAAOSw5epfrUjS

is this a real GEC 6080? the sticker is different. maybe some kind of military version of it? it seems to come in military bulk.


----------



## cddc (Aug 19, 2021)

Renexx said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164508236603?hash=item264d747b3b:g:MIMAAOSw5epfrUjS
> 
> is this a real GEC 6080? the sticker is different. maybe some kind of military version of it? it seems to come in military bulk.




Yes, they are genuine GEC 6080s, the stickers do not matter, their internals are the same as my GEC 6080s.

However, the Vietnamese seller *hanoitubes* is very sneaky, as we've discussed on him earlier. These GEC 6080s seem new in box, however, we'll never know if they test new. The seller has a TV-7 tester, but he will never tell you how well his "NOS?" tubes test ...very sneaky  

I believe @jonathan c once called the seller's definition of "NOS" tube as No Operating Status instead of New Old Stock...lol

So Caveat Emptor!


----------



## cddc

BTW, the stickers are okay, Marconi Wireless Telegraph is part of the GEC group.


----------



## Renexx (Aug 19, 2021)

Thanks for the help. 

He doesnt have any bad feedbacks but I guess the tubes  are overpriced.

sadly i cant find the discussion about him with search function of his name.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

@Renexx Not only are his tubes grossly overpriced, but also notice how many of his listings have "Watchers". I suspect they are artificial watchers to try and create interest. All of this just IMHO.


----------



## exchez

Renexx said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/164508236603?hash=item264d747b3b:g:MIMAAOSw5epfrUjS
> 
> is this a real GEC 6080? the sticker is different. maybe some kind of military version of it? it seems to come in military bulk.


You could almost buy three pair for that price.


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> Thanks for the help.
> 
> He doesnt have any bad feedbacks but I guess the tubes  are overpriced.
> 
> sadly i cant find the discussion about him with search function of his name.


BangyBang also has 100% positive feedback, and I wouldn't allow him to send me tubes for free.  That's a ridiculous price to boot, as are the prices in all of hanoitubes listings.


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> BangyBang also has 100% positive feedback, and I wouldn't allow him to send me tubes for free.  That's a ridiculous price to boot, as are the prices in all of hanoitubes listings.




This hanoitubes is carbon copy of Bangybang/Menifee, charging ridiculous prices while providing no tube test info....and 100% positive feedback...LOL


----------



## attmci (Aug 19, 2021)

cddc said:


> BTW, the stickers are okay, Marconi Wireless Telegraph is part of the GEC group.


But who wants to buy a GEC 6080 at that price?????????? 





I deleted "the hell" between who and wants to be polite here.


----------



## maxpudding

attmci said:


> But who wants to buy a GEC 6080 at that price??????????
> 
> 
> 
> ...



4 sold 😂


----------



## cddc

maxpudding said:


> 4 sold 😂



Most of us here are not clientele of these vicious sellers.

But there are always newbies and dudes with endless money to squander, that's why these Bangybang's can still survive 😂


----------



## maxpudding

cddc said:


> Most of us here are not clientele of these vicious sellers.
> 
> But there are always newbies and dudes with endless money to squander, that's why these Bangybang's can still survive 😂


I agree 👍🏼


----------



## attmci (Aug 20, 2021)

maxpudding said:


> I agree 👍🏼


https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_...age:RECEIVED_AS_SELLER&_trksid=p2047675.l2560

Fake. Most of the lists has one left.


----------



## Renexx (Aug 25, 2021)

Are these bendix 6080 with solid plates relabeld to tungsol/chatham  or  tungsol 6080 in later revision?


----------



## gibosi

No one knows for sure, but since they look and sound about the same, I think it is safe to assume that at the very least, Bendix had some involvement in making these.


----------



## Renexx

i think my bendix 6080 slotted plates sound quite different to my chatham 6080 with flat plates (no graphite plates).

just wondering if these will sound like bendix or like my chathams?


----------



## adeadcrab

Renexx said:


> Are these bendix 6080 with solid plates relabeld to tungsol/chatham  or  tungsol 6080 in later revision?
> 
> WB


Yes they are, I've got those same tubes in the La Figaro 339i at the moment, solid plate Bendix 6080WB labelled as Tung-Sol. Big bass and smooth tube sound. My fav next to Cetron / Tung-Sol 7236.


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> i think my bendix 6080 slotted plates sound quite different to my chatham 6080 with flat plates (no graphite plates).
> 
> just wondering if these will sound like bendix or like my chathams?


In my experience, the slotted graphite plate is a bit better than the solid graphite plate, and either graphite plate version is better than the steel plates regardless of branding.  YMMV and all, just what I've heard.


----------



## maxpudding

Renexx said:


> i think my bendix 6080 slotted plates sound quite different to my chatham 6080 with flat plates (no graphite plates).
> 
> just wondering if these will sound like bendix or like my chathams?



The slotted ones sound better in my setup…and they burn a hole in my pocket too

“where did the money go?”


----------



## gibosi

And I agree with the above posts. Between the two graphite versions, I like the slotted ones better than the solid. But yes indeed, they are getting expensive!


----------



## Renexx

All the nice tubes for my feliks Euphoria amp are terrible in price but atleast my collction is almost complete.

Please let the journey end haha


----------



## fuzzroffe

Renexx said:


> All the nice tubes for my feliks Euphoria amp are terrible in price but atleast my collction is almost complete.
> 
> Please let the journey end haha


Hahah! This thread was what sent me down the 6AS7 rabbit hole. I’ve got seven different tubes, and four of them are in pairs, so I really don’t need any more. But if something cheap and interesting comes up I’ll snag it  

I haven’t started collecting 6SN7s fortunately, or else I’d been bankrupt.


----------



## m17xr2b (Aug 26, 2021)

The later version but testing is very good even if a bit unbalanced and a good price for a GEC 6AS7G https://www.ebay.com/itm/294353540134?hash=item4488d69426:g:W1IAAOSwZChhI7SV


----------



## PsilocybinCube

I hadn't bought a tube in several months outside of buying a big lot of 'poorly' testing 5998 tubes (3 of 6 are fine).

And this caught my eye.  This '421a' tube. 

Any thoughts on this impulse purchase as I await its arrival???  I'm a Chatham 6as7g and TS 5998 guy and don't have too much experience outside of those power tubes.

It doesn't quite look like a bendix to me, but it's similar...


----------



## gibosi

PsilocybinCube said:


> I hadn't bought a tube in several months outside of buying a big lot of 'poorly' testing 5998 tubes (3 of 6 are fine).
> 
> And this caught my eye.  This '421a' tube.
> 
> ...



These look to me like Tung-Sol 7236.


----------



## bcowen

PsilocybinCube said:


> I hadn't bought a tube in several months outside of buying a big lot of 'poorly' testing 5998 tubes (3 of 6 are fine).
> 
> And this caught my eye.  This '421a' tube.
> 
> ...


Tung Sol never made a 421A that I'm aware of (that type was specific to Western Electric).  If they are TS 7236's as @gibosi suggests, many think they are great sounding tubes.  I have some Cetron 7236's but no Tung Sols to compare to.  The Cetrons are quite nice.  Not my favorites, but that's a personal preference and synergy thing rather than any statement on the tube itself.


----------



## gibosi (Aug 26, 2021)

As above, the closest Tung Sol ever came to making a 421A is their 5998. 

Below, a pair of Tung-Sol 7236,

On top "7236" is etched within an octagon. And this pair was manufactured in 1964.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

gibosi said:


> As above, the closest Tung Sol ever came to making a 421A is their 5998.
> 
> Below, a pair of Tung-Sol 7236,
> 
> On top "7236" is etched within an octagon. And this pair was manufactured in 1964.


I was thinking it could be a 7236 with a slightly different finished look to the tube.  I've never owned a 7236, so I'll look forward to trying it out in the Incubus.


----------



## JTbbb

My pair of TS 7236’s. I’m contemplating selling?


----------



## CADCAM

Can anyone please tell me the differences, if any, between the black base Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 and the white base?
thanks for any and all info


----------



## Dogmatrix

CADCAM said:


> Can anyone please tell me the differences, if any, between the black base Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 and the white base?
> thanks for any and all info


As always there is a high level of rebranding going on so it is always better to judge by internal structure 
Most of the black base GB tubes I see look very much like GE and the white version I see in equal numbers branded Philips and Sylvania


----------



## Velozity

fuzzroffe said:


> Hahah! This thread was what sent me down the 6AS7 rabbit hole. I’ve got seven different tubes, and four of them are in pairs, so I really don’t need any more. But if something cheap and interesting comes up I’ll snag it
> 
> I haven’t started collecting 6SN7s fortunately, or else I’d been bankrupt.




I thought the 6AS7 rabbit hole was deep, but it pales in comparison to the EL34/6L6/KT66/KT88 rabbit hole.  Gathering tubes for my upcoming SET amp is proving very account-draining.  By comparison, a pair of GEC 6AS7G is $500 and a pair of GEC (Genalex/Gold Lion) KT88 is $1000 on a good day.  Western Electric 350B's??  $1200+...


----------



## UntilThen

Velozity said:


> I thought the 6AS7 rabbit hole was deep, but it pales in comparison to the EL34/6L6/KT66/KT88 rabbit hole.  Gathering tubes for my upcoming SET amp is proving very account-draining.  By comparison, a pair of GEC 6AS7G is $500 and a pair of GEC (Genalex/Gold Lion) KT88 is $1000 on a good day.  Western Electric 350B's??  $1200+...



Tell me about it.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Velozity said:


> I thought the 6AS7 rabbit hole was deep, but it pales in comparison to the EL34/6L6/KT66/KT88 rabbit hole.  Gathering tubes for my upcoming SET amp is proving very account-draining.  By comparison, a pair of GEC 6AS7G is $500 and a pair of GEC (Genalex/Gold Lion) KT88 is $1000 on a good day.  Western Electric 350B's??  $1200+...




Need a GEC tube? I’ve got one, lightly used 😃 I’ve been wondering if I should try it in my KT88 amp…


----------



## CaptainFantastic

I added one more 6520 to my collection. I knew from the pictures when purchasing it (and low price) that this one is different than my other two. My other two resemble 5998s in build, while this one looks like a 6AS7G. Still, all three are labeled 6520.

1st tube - the new arrival, solid plates, rectangular plastic pieces at the top, triangle pointed metal ends from the middle horizontal plate, so just like the 6AS7G on the extreme right (except that 6AS7G has copper? wiring on the sides of the plates)
2nd and 3rd tubes - 6520s resembling 5998s, with domino plates

Testing the sound now. Don't in any way trust me because I am a novice, but I think it's more neutral than the other two 6520s which despite looking like 5998s are warmer/bass-ier, it seems to me.


----------



## SHIMACM

To colleagues here on the topic, I'm in need of a little help.

I bought five valves on Ebay Tung-Sol 6080 and received them today.

I tested them all on my Darkvoice, but one of them started giving a kind of short inside it giving loud pops on my phone.

I immediately turned off the amplifier.

I unplugged the phone and then turned the amplifier back on.

The valve worked normally.

I plugged in the phone again and the sound was normal.

Has anyone ever witnessed something like this?

Should I discard this valve?


----------



## adeadcrab

SHIMACM said:


> To colleagues here on the topic, I'm in need of a little help.
> 
> I bought five valves on Ebay Tung-Sol 6080 and received them today.
> 
> ...


My Bendix 6080WB had this issue; one of the pair did this after buying it on ebay. Who knows how many years it was in storage, its pins oxidising... I cleaned the pins with deoxit red and tried it again - been years and years of use with no pops since.


----------



## SHIMACM

adeadcrab said:


> My Bendix 6080WB had this issue; one of the pair did this after buying it on ebay. Who knows how many years it was in storage, its pins oxidising... I cleaned the pins with deoxit red and tried it again - been years and years of use with no pops since.



In your bandix did you get to see the short inside the tube? Or did you just hear the crackles?


----------



## adeadcrab

SHIMACM said:


> In your bandix did you get to see the short inside the tube? Or did you just hear the crackles?


I heard a loud 'crack', and yeah the tube actually arced and looked like lightning in a bottle... wiser minds would tell you this overworked tube needs to be retired for good.. I'm using that pair of tubes in my amp at the moment... the worst is they occasionally hum for an hour or two in the background with no music playing.


----------



## gibosi (Sep 1, 2021)

SHIMACM said:


> To colleagues here on the topic, I'm in need of a little help.
> 
> I bought five valves on Ebay Tung-Sol 6080 and received them today.
> 
> ...



As @adeadcrab pointed out, this is not uncommon, especially with tubes that have been stored for many years. I do not recommend that you discard this valve. But I do recommend that you turn the amp on and wait 5 or 10 minutes before connecting your phones. This is enough time for the valve to heat up to its normal operating temperature and stabilize. And it is likely that you will be able to use this valve for many years.


----------



## SHIMACM

adeadcrab said:


> I heard a loud 'crack', and yeah the tube actually arced and looked like lightning in a bottle... wiser minds would tell you this overworked tube needs to be retired for good.. I'm using that pair of tubes in my amp at the moment... the worst is they occasionally hum for an hour or two in the background with no music playing.





gibosi said:


> As @adeadcrab pointed out, this is not uncommon, especially with tubes that have been stored for many years. I do not recommend that you discard this valve. But I do recommend that you turn the amp on and wait 5 or 10 minutes before connecting your phones. This is enough time for the valve to heat up to its normal operating temperature and stabilize. And it is likely that you will be able to use this valve for many years.


Thanks for the explanations.


----------



## DenverW

I would have a differing opinion on that tube.  Definitely test it first as suggested above.  If you got a whole set I would stick to the other ones.

a tube sourced from eBay could have an issue.  That arc could end up causing an issue with your headphones, and not worth the risk imho.  Be careful.


----------



## Deceneu808

This just came in


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Deceneu808 said:


> This just came in


That tube looks minty fresh.  Including the minty text and super-clean pins.


----------



## bcowen

Deceneu808 said:


> This just came in


Nice!  But who made that?  I've never seen a Tung Sol with green print.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bcowen said:


> Nice!  But who made that?  I've never seen a Tung Sol with green print.



Interesting. I have two from Woo Audio (I believe) with green print. Will have to check.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> Interesting. I have two from Woo Audio (I believe) with green print. Will have to check.


Be interested to know.  To my knowledge, only Tung Sol / Chatham and Western Electric made the domino plate version of that tube, and all the TS's I've seen have white print (and the WE's are yellow).  But that's just what I've seen which is obviously quite limited in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Here they are. The first one came with my WA3 amp (and I sold it with it) and I believe the original owner bought it from Woo in 2019. The other two I have from Woo. 

Are we saying they might not be Tung Sols?


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> Here they are. The first one came with my WA3 amp (and I sold it with it) and I believe the original owner bought it from Woo in 2019. The other two I have from Woo.
> 
> Are we saying they might not be Tung Sols?


Cool.  With the domino plates I think they are definitely Tung Sols.  I just hadn't seen any with green print before....add one more to _my_ knowledge bank.


----------



## Deceneu808

PsilocybinCube said:


> That tube looks minty fresh.  Including the minty text and super-clean pins.


Brand New or so he said


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Cool.  With the domino plates I think they are definitely Tung Sols.  I just hadn't seen any with green print before....add one more to _my_ knowledge bank.


From what I am told from old radio/vacuum tube collectors...in general that green print on tubes was always slated for military use.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Sep 6, 2021)

Slade01 said:


> From what I am told from old radio/vacuum tube collectors...in general that green print on tubes was always slated for military use.


----------



## Slade01

Deceneu808 said:


>


LOL.  The only predator is bangybang and wegehightubes and the like.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Slade01 said:


> From what I am told from old radio/vacuum tube collectors...in general that green print on tubes was always slated for military use.



Interestingly my first one with green print was labelled "JAN" which I guess means for the Army/Navy. The other two with green text are not labelled "JAN". But another two I have, with white and red text respectively, are labeled "JAN". Ay-yay...


----------



## Slade01

CaptainFantastic said:


> Interestingly my first one with green print was labelled "JAN" which I guess means for the Army/Navy. The other two with green text are not labelled "JAN". But another two I have, with white and red text respectively, are labeled "JAN". Ay-yay...



Well most likely the white and red were consumer/commercial grade tubes...but portioned out for the military use as well by adding the JAN designation.  

Yeah trying to figure out the history of it all is pretty crazy.  But interesting nonetheless.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> Interestingly my first one with green print was labelled "JAN" which I guess means for the Army/Navy. The other two with green text are not labelled "JAN". But another two I have, with white and red text respectively, are labeled "JAN". Ay-yay...


Yup, JAN = *J*oint *A*rmy *N*avy.


----------



## gibosi (Sep 6, 2021)

Another suggestion.


Slade01 said:


> Well most likely the white and red were consumer/commercial grade tubes...but portioned out for the military use as well by adding the JAN designation.
> 
> Yeah trying to figure out the history of it all is pretty crazy.  But interesting nonetheless.



I think the color of the print has nothing to do with the eventual customer, military, industrial or consumer. I have noticed that green print is more common with later tubes, from the late sixties and on. Interestingly, I have two military / JAN tubes, one dated the 21st week of 1968 in white print and the other dated the 34th week of 1969 in green print. But the reason the color changed within 12 months is unknown, and perhaps unknowable. After all, it is likely that no one alive today knows.


----------



## Slade01

gibosi said:


> Another suggestion.
> 
> 
> I think the color of the print has nothing to do with the eventual customer, military, industrial or consumer. I have noticed that green print is more common with later tubes, from the late sixties and on. Interestingly, I have two military / JAN tubes, one dated the 21st week of 1968 in white print and the other dated the 34th week of 1969 in green print. But the reason the color changed within 12 months is unknown, and perhaps unknowable. After all, it is likely that no one alive today knows.



You are probably right.  The reasoning for the color print was solely/mainly in the context of 40s era tubes and war time efforts as I understand it.   The friend of mine who had told me this lived through that era.  All in all he said the practices may have varied with different tube manufacturers anyways.

I'm guessing in the 60s things inevitably change.  Yeah thats pretty wild that the tube changes can happen in a short amount of time, but yeah I'm sure it happened for some unknowable reason to us.


----------



## gibosi

Slade01 said:


> You are probably right.  The reasoning for the color print was solely/mainly in the context of 40s era tubes and war time efforts as I understand it.   The friend of mine who had told me this lived through that era.  All in all he said the practices may have varied with different tube manufacturers anyways.
> 
> I'm guessing in the 60s things inevitably change.  Yeah thats pretty wild that the tube changes can happen in a short amount of time, but yeah I'm sure it happened for some unknowable reason to us.



These two tubes have identical construction. My wild guess is that the color and labeling changes were likely a marketing decision. Blocked white text looked pretty stogy in the late 1960's, and perhaps they felt the need to update every so slightly so as to not look too "square". lol


----------



## JTbbb

I mention this here now because these are not showing on hifishark. Here in the uk Langrex have some GEC 6AS7G NIB (marked as Marconi) for sale. Not cheap, as you would expect. Thought I would highlight it.


----------



## maxpudding

JTbbb said:


> I mention this here now because these are not showing on hifishark. Here in the uk Langrex have some GEC 6AS7G NIB (marked as Marconi) for sale. Not cheap, as you would expect. Thought I would highlight it.


Apparently, they also have 5998s in stock.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Cool.  With the domino plates I think they are definitely Tung Sols.  I just hadn't seen any with green print before....add one more to _my_ knowledge bank.


I do. LOL NIB


----------



## PsilocybinCube

kimdeug said:


> Just nice picture from my collection)
> If you understand , what I am talking about)
> 
> Regards from new Zealand
> Kim


Replying to this old post if only to show some other green 5998 text from earlier in the thread.


----------



## JKDJedi

PsilocybinCube said:


> Replying to this old post if only to show some other green 5998 text from earlier in the thread


Talk about hording..  wow..that's a lot of 5998's there..  when I'm in the EDM mood ... *5998*


----------



## Smallpie

If anybody is interested, I listed a few tubes that are relevant to this thread.
Let me know if we can strike a good deal.

https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/misc-tubes-6080-etc.10916/


----------



## Galapac (Sep 11, 2021)

This 6AS7G CEI listing on the bay seems like a counterfeit….looks like a 6N13S to me with those ufo getters…what do others think?
Normally you could say rebrand but they are labeled “Made in Germany”

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284364529421?hash=item4235725f0d:g:Q3AAAOSw4xxg5003


----------



## Dogmatrix

Galapac said:


> This 6AS7G CEI listing on the bay seems like a counterfeit….looks like a 6N13S to me with those ufo getters…what do others think?
> Normally you could say rebrand but they are labeled “Made in Germany”
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/284364529421?hash=item4235725f0d:g:Q3AAAOSw4xxg5003


Definitely Russian but I would still say rebrand rather than deliberate deception 
Could have been assembled in East Germany for example then sold to CEI post reunification and then legitimately "Made in Germany"
Alternatively different countries have different thresholds for the legal use of "Made in XXXX" for some product boxing is enough to qualify 
Ultimately if I were going to counterfeit some 6AS7G I would not choose CEI


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> This 6AS7G CEI listing on the bay seems like a counterfeit….looks like a 6N13S to me with those ufo getters…what do others think?
> Normally you could say rebrand but they are labeled “Made in Germany”
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/284364529421?hash=item4235725f0d:g:Q3AAAOSw4xxg5003


Agree that the UFO's clearly make them Russian.  Mine were made in England.


----------



## Dogmatrix

bcowen said:


> Agree that the UFO's clearly make them Russian.  Mine were made in England.


I think England is a small region near 
Novosibirsk​


----------



## Renexx

Do you guys have experience in buying from Japan?

Im interested in a pair of Western Electric 421a but its hard to get them since some American sellers on ebay dont believe in Air mail haha.

I found these on hifishark:

https://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=w1005732714


----------



## Galapac (Sep 16, 2021)

Sorry, have never bought off of Yahoo auctions myself, that would be a good current price if it was legit.

EDIT: That shipping price is higher than the tube, lol.


----------



## maxpudding (Sep 16, 2021)

Galapac said:


> Sorry, have never bought off of Yahoo auctions myself, that would be a good current price if it was legit.
> 
> EDIT: That shipping price is higher than the tube, lol.


The tube prices from yahoo! Japan auctions are quite reasonable compared to ebay, but the shipping prices to European countries or the US are high. Some words of caution: some tube vendors from yahoo auctions do not have the means to measure their tubes, nor they know if the tubes would work or not (probably they are just the middlemen). So read the descriptions carefully before making your bids.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Sep 17, 2021)

Delicious


----------



## JTbbb

Deceneu808 said:


> Delicios


Nice, GEC or Marconi? Not that it makes any difference.


----------



## Deceneu808

JTbbb said:


> Nice, GEC or Marconi? Not that it makes any difference.


Came in a perfume box but I imagine mwt Marconi. Was listed as GEC


----------



## JTbbb

After Deceneu808 posted his pic it inspired me to give mine another airing and I’m thoroughly enjoying the music paired with these new to me Tungsol’s. These are GEC’s curved base. Again not that it makes any difference as I have mixed and matched the curve with the straight, the cv1834 with the cv2523 and there is not a jot of difference with internals or SQ. But people will seek out the curve base because I guess they are not so numerous? And they look rather nice! Doh that was me 😀.


----------



## PsilocybinCube

Every time I see a Felix Audio amp, I want to buy a Felix Audio amp.

Very attractive setup.  I'm sure this would play well with my Verite...

What headphones are you driving with this amplifier?


----------



## Galapac

I have the Feliks Euforia and I use them with ZMF Verite’s, both open and closed and Focal Utopias.


----------



## Renexx (Sep 20, 2021)

The Euphoria pairs very well with ZMFs. Absolutely love it.

OTL with warm tubes + warm headphone = romantic listening 🔥🎧


----------



## JTbbb

PsilocybinCube said:


> Every time I see a Felix Audio amp, I want to buy a Felix Audio amp.
> 
> Very attractive setup.  I'm sure this would play well with my Verite...
> 
> What headphones are you driving with this amplifier?


HD800S’s for me. Having chatted with Renexx recently I will at some point try the ZMF’s.


----------



## maxpudding

JTbbb said:


> HD800S’s for me. Having chatted with Renexx recently I will at some point try the ZMF’s.


Go for it, I’m using zmf verite and aelous with my otl amp, very nice synergy.


----------



## JamieMcC

I've been having a sort out in the dining room today in one of the sideboard draws under some table cloths I found 10 tubes all wrapped up in bubble wrap which I had forgotten were there!

5 x Tungsol 6as7g 
&
5 x Tungsol 5998  

They have probably been there at least 10 years lol.  





I


----------



## bcowen

JamieMcC said:


> I've been having a sort out in the dining room today in one of the sideboard draws under some table cloths I found 10 tubes all wrapped up in bubble wrap which I had forgotten were there!
> 
> 5 x Tungsol 6as7g
> &
> ...


Holy cow!  If you're going to 'forget' about some tubes, try GE's next time and send me those Tung Sols.


----------



## maxpudding

JamieMcC said:


> I've been having a sort out in the dining room today in one of the sideboard draws under some table cloths I found 10 tubes all wrapped up in bubble wrap which I had forgotten were there!
> 
> 5 x Tungsol 6as7g
> &
> ...


Those tubes easily can fetch you good money these days


----------



## Deceneu808

JamieMcC said:


> I've been having a sort out in the dining room today in one of the sideboard draws under some table cloths I found 10 tubes all wrapped up in bubble wrap which I had forgotten were there!
> 
> 5 x Tungsol 6as7g
> &
> ...


Let me know if I can help you forget about two 6as7g


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Sep 23, 2021)

maxpudding said:


> Apparently, they also have 5998s in stock.



And interestingly, their stock of 28 (I believe they had 28) 5998s has been bought fully by someone. Probably an amp company stocking up?

https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/5998-6as7g-jan-tung-sol-nos-valve-tube/

This was at 28 or so when JTbbb posted about it being available. Now zero.

(not interested to buy myself, too many 5998s already)


----------



## maxpudding

CaptainFantastic said:


> And interestingly, their stock of 28 (I believe they had 28) 5998s has been bought fully by someone. Probably an amp company stocking up?
> 
> https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/5998-6as7g-jan-tung-sol-nos-valve-tube/
> 
> ...


Probably a reseller 😂


----------



## JamieMcC

gancanjam said:


> Have listened to Dave and it is a great DAC paired with Simaudio Moon Neo 430 amplifier & Utopia HP .  Liked the Natural sound, layering, resolution, neutral tone and mainly the dynamics of brining out different instruments to slap your face. But it is bit pricey  can anyone provide alternate DAC recommendations to Dave with  a better price point for EDM / Pop music ?





CaptainFantastic said:


> And interestingly, their stock of 28 (I believe they had 28) 5998s has been bought fully by someone. Probably an amp company stocking up?
> 
> https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/5998-6as7g-jan-tung-sol-nos-valve-tube/
> 
> ...



Significantly better return I suspect than leaving your money in the bank for a few years.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Simply multiply the price by an arbitrary integer: https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998


----------



## Galapac

Plus if I were to buy up all 28 I would certainly receive a discount for bulk purchase.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

New GEC 6AS7G listing at a decent price for those in the U.S., if this is indeed very strong testing - https://www.ebay.com/itm/274958472908 .


----------



## JTbbb

CaptainFantastic said:


> New GEC 6AS7G listing at a decent price for those in the U.S., if this is indeed very strong testing - https://www.ebay.com/itm/274958472908 .


Haha, that didn’t last long!


----------



## maxpudding

CaptainFantastic said:


> New GEC 6AS7G listing at a decent price for those in the U.S., if this is indeed very strong testing - https://www.ebay.com/itm/274958472908 .


Dayummmn


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JTbbb said:


> Haha, that didn’t last long!



It was $125.


----------



## JTbbb

I think we now know who acquired that tube! Some pics please Mr bcowen when you receive it 😀


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> I think we now know who acquired that tube! Some pics please Mr bcowen when you receive it 😀


LOL!  Wasn't me.  I'm not buying any more tubes***.    

***this week.


----------



## Renexx

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Wasn't me.  I'm not buying any more tubes***.
> 
> ***this week.


Its hard to let go... ones collection might never be complete 💡


----------



## JTbbb

I’m not very good at dating these, could someone enlighten me please? Thanks.


----------



## Deceneu808

JTbbb said:


> I’m not very good at dating these, could someone enlighten me please? Thanks.


44 and 42 ?


----------



## JTbbb

Deceneu808 said:


> 44 and 42 ?


Thanks for that. But that would surely be too early? Our American friends will be rising soon! After all, these are their tubes 😀


----------



## Deceneu808

JTbbb said:


> Thanks for that. But that would surely be too early? Our American friends will be rising soon! After all, these are their tubes 😀


I'm also curious. I know 322 is factory code for Tung-Sol and then it's year,month and week. Something like that


----------



## gibosi

322 = Tung-Sol
4 = 1954
41 = week 41
3 = it's not clear, but I think it might be factory #3

And of course, the other tube is 1954 week 26.


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> 322 = Tung-Sol
> 4 = 1954
> 41 = week 41
> 3 = it's not clear, but I think it might be factory #3
> ...


Ah thank you gibosi. So a relatively early pair?


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Ah thank you gibosi. So a relatively early pair?



Western Electric registered "5998" as a special purpose number for their 421A in September, 1951. Chatham / Tung-Sol entered into an agreement with Western Electric, shortly thereafter, to manufacture the 5998. So yes, these are early.


----------



## JTbbb

Here is another one I struggle with. Help with dating this much appreciated. The codes are reasonably legible. YD  X/Z    YE   Z


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Here is another one I struggle with. Help with dating this much appreciated. The codes are reasonably legible. YD  X/Z    YE   Z



GEC used the Common Valve dating system. The first letter is the year and the second is the month.

A is 1945 and Z is 1968. The letters "i" and "o" are not used.  And the months, A is January and M is December, and "i" is not used.

So YD is 1967, April. And YE is 1967, May.

And Z tells us that these were manufactured in GEC's factory located at Hammersmith, London, England.


----------



## JamieMcC

JTbbb said:


> I’m not very good at dating these, could someone enlighten me please? Thanks.



If these are early 5998 cleartops your on to winner sonics wise, I find them preferable to the later WE 421A version myself.


----------



## Deceneu808

gibosi said:


> GEC used the Common Valve dating system. The first letter is the year and the second is the month.
> 
> A is 1945 and Z is 1968. The letters "i" and "o" are not used.  And the months, A is January and M is December, and "i" is not used.
> 
> ...


Is it the same for Marconi mwt ?
Mine says NC so 1957 March ?


----------



## gibosi

Deceneu808 said:


> Is it the same for Marconi mwt ?
> Mine says NC so 1957 March ?



Yes, indeed.


----------



## JTbbb

JamieMcC said:


> If these are early 5998 cleartops your on to winner sonics wise, I find them preferable to the later WE 421A version myself.


No these are chrome tops. But I do have the clear tops with double rectangular getters in the base. They are labelled Chatham 5998’s. Dated 1957. The internals are early 421A’s.


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> GEC used the Common Valve dating system. The first letter is the year and the second is the month.
> 
> A is 1945 and Z is 1968. The letters "i" and "o" are not used.  And the months, A is January and M is December, and "i" is not used.
> 
> ...


Thanks gibosi, you are a mine of information. I now recollect that you have posted this information before. Now my problem is this. They are pictures of just one tube in different locations. I wonder if the printer had a few beers to many 😀.


----------



## Deceneu808

Couldn't resist


----------



## JTbbb

Just sounding this out. Is anyone interested in swapping a nice pair of WE 421A’s for these curved brown base GEC 6AS7G’s. Tested couple of months ago on calibrated AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester. Pm if interested.


----------



## Renexx

That's the holy grail of light bulbs! 💡


----------



## Deceneu808

Been some weeks since I ordered these


----------



## JTbbb

Deceneu808 said:


> Been some weeks since I ordered these
> 
> 
> ​


What are the drivers you have up front there?


----------



## Galapac

JTbbb said:


> Just sounding this out. Is anyone interested in swapping a nice pair of WE 421A’s for these curved brown base GEC 6AS7G’s. Tested couple of months ago on calibrated AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester. Pm if interested.


Did you get any swap offers?


----------



## JTbbb

Galapac said:


> Did you get any swap offers?


Nothing concrete yet.


----------



## Deceneu808

JTbbb said:


> What are the drivers you have up front there?


mwt B65 CV1988 6SN7GT


----------



## Renexx

Deceneu808 said:


> mwt B65 CV1988 6SN7GT


Holy 💡, how do these sound ?


----------



## Deceneu808

Renexx said:


> Holy 💡, how do these sound ?


Warm, relaxed. It's a sound I prefer for long listening. Bass is not that well controlled like a Ken Rad VT for example but it's fun


----------



## jonathan c

Deceneu808 said:


> Warm, relaxed. It's a sound I prefer for long listening. Bass is not that well controlled like a Ken Rad VT for example but it's fun


Hmm……warm, relaxed….nice bottom….not well controlled….fun….sounds like an erstwhile flame of mine….


----------



## attmci

JTbbb said:


> Just sounding this out. Is anyone interested in swapping a nice pair of WE 421A’s for these curved brown base GEC 6AS7G’s. Tested couple of months ago on calibrated AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester. Pm if interested.


Why?


----------



## attmci (Oct 7, 2021)

Deceneu808 said:


> mwt B65 CV1988 6SN7GT


Ken, Are these b65? I recall they are all metal base.


----------



## JTbbb

attmci said:


> Why?


I prefer the sound of the WE’s


----------



## attmci

JTbbb said:


> I prefer the sound of the WE’s


Try to find some clear-top 5998, they are good and close to 421A.


----------



## gibosi (Oct 7, 2021)

attmci said:


> Ken, Are these b65? I recall they are all metal base.



No, not all B65 have metal bases. And as best I can tell there are at least two different versions with plastic bases. One version has the same "umbrella spokes" attached to the top mica as the earlier metal base. And I have seen a later version with no "umbrella spokes".

Very frankly, I don't know if his B65s are the real thing. I have two versions, an early one with smoked glass, metal base and "umbrella spokes" and a slightly later one with clear glass, brown phenolic base and "umbrella spokes". I have never looked closely at the construction of those without "umbrella spokes" to be able to have an opinion.


----------



## cddc

Sadly, they are not B65's.

Though B65's with bakelite base are quite common, I've never seen a B65 coming with a rectangular top mica. All the B65's that I've seen come with round top mica - sometimes with teeth and sometimes without, but never a rectangular top mica.

Also, the "CV1998" on the glass seems so counterfeited, as the fonts are quite ugly.

They look more like RCA to me.


----------



## Deceneu808 (Oct 8, 2021)

cddc said:


> Sadly, they are not B65's.
> 
> Though B65's with bakelite base are quite common, I've never seen a B65 coming with a rectangular top mica. All the B65's that I've seen come with round top mica - sometimes with teeth and sometimes without, but never a rectangular top mica.
> 
> ...


Good to know. I got them from Langrex UK. Whatever they are, they sound quite nice.

Here are some more shots to help me identify them :










They seem quite similar to most Fivre 6sn7gt's construction


----------



## JTbbb

Deceneu808 said:


> Good to know. I got them from Langrex UK. Whatever they are, they sound quite nice.
> 
> Here are some more shots to help me identify them :
> 
> ...


I must admit I was getting confused with these hence why I asked “what are the drivers up front” earlier in the thread. Now that there have been  more learned replies, I really am no wiser! Are we suggesting that these might be purporting to be these?


----------



## JTbbb

Galapac said:


> Did you get any swap offers?


All sorted! My GEC’s are winging their way to a fellow countryman over your way, as a pair of nice 421A’s are winging their way here. 😁


----------



## Galapac

JTbbb said:


> All sorted! My GEC’s are winging their way to a fellow countryman over your way, as a pair of nice 421A’s are winging their way here. 😁


Great! Nice to see it worked out for you.


----------



## JamieMcC (Oct 8, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> All sorted! My GEC’s are winging their way to a fellow countryman over your way, as a pair of nice 421A’s are winging their way here. 😁



Thank goodness I was very tempted as have a pair of NOS WE 421a tucked away.  If I didn't have a few GEC already I definitely would have been in contact. But I kept thinking how likely would it be to pick up another NOS in box pair.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

cddc said:


> Also, the "CV1998" on the glass seems so counterfeited, as the fonts are quite ugly.



I would say they uglier something looks the likelier that it was made for the military .


----------



## JTbbb

JamieMcC said:


> Thank goodness I was very tempted as have a pair of NOS WE 421a tucked away.  If I didn't have a few GEC already I definitely would have been in contact. But I kept thinking how likely would it be to pick up another NOS in box pair.


Nice, but have to say I’m pleased with my trade. These are coming my way.


----------



## gibosi

Deceneu808 said:


> Good to know. I got them from Langrex UK. Whatever they are, they sound quite nice.
> 
> Here are some more shots to help me identify them :
> 
> ...



I don't think these are Fivre. Fivre 6SN7GT have a different construction. The top and bottom mica spacers are rectangular, but narrower than yours, with a few ‘spikes’ on both short ends, and the plates are mounted in a staggered arrangement. That is, not parallel to the sides of the mica spacers.

But off the top of my head, I have no idea who made yours...


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> I must admit I was getting confused with these hence why I asked “what are the drivers up front” earlier in the thread. Now that there have been  more learned replies, I really am no wiser! Are we suggesting that these might be purporting to be these?



No, the shape of the plates and mica spacers are quite different. You have a nice pair of Brimar 6SN7GT, version 2.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## Deceneu808

gibosi said:


> I don't think these are Fivre. Fivre 6SN7GT have a different construction. The top and bottom mica spacers are rectangular, but narrower than yours, with a few ‘spikes’ on both short ends, and the plates are mounted in a staggered arrangement. That is, not parallel to the sides of the mica spacers.
> 
> But off the top of my head, I have no idea who made yours...


I need to post mine on the 6sn7 identification thread to see if anybody know anything more. Thanks !


----------



## attmci

gibosi said:


> I don't think these are Fivre. Fivre 6SN7GT have a different construction. The top and bottom mica spacers are rectangular, but narrower than yours, with a few ‘spikes’ on both short ends, and the plates are mounted in a staggered arrangement. That is, not parallel to the sides of the mica spacers.
> 
> But off the top of my head, I have no idea who made yours...


Have to test these in an amp to make sure they are sound like other B65s.


----------



## attmci

attmci said:


> Have to test these in an amp to make sure they are sound like other B65s.


B65 has very unique sound signature. Very nice tubes, but way too expensive for most of us.


----------



## gibosi

attmci said:


> B65 has very unique sound signature. Very nice tubes, but way too expensive for most of us.



And in most instances, I prefer the Mullard ECC33, but it too is often too expensive.


----------



## Deceneu808

gibosi said:


> But off the top of my head, I have no idea who made yours...


Found a listing to what appears to be the same as mine. Just plain Marconi 6SN7GT.


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> Without either seller noting what the minimum or NOS values are on their testers, the test readings are totally worthless.  And with no mention of when their testers were last serviced or calibrated means that even *with* the minimum/NOS values, it's only a roll of the dice.


Hi bcowen,

I spent a couple of hours the other day searching around the web looking for valve NOS and MINIMUM values. I went at it from a number of angles, including looking at Valve Tester data and instruction sheets, and individual valves, and drew a blank! I’m not the world’s best at internet searches, so maybe I missed something.

But you are suggesting each type of tester should have a list of tubes with a Fail, Minimum Good and NOS values, and I guess what voltages etc you must apply? These data sheets would be huge wouldn’t they? Looking at it rationally I would have thought the tube manufacturer would of supplied this information.

This is not a dig at your above suggestion, if it comes across as. I am genuinely interested in this subject and am hoping to be enlightened by more knowledgeable people. Though I have this feeling it could be a complicated can of worms!


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Hi bcowen,
> 
> I spent a couple of hours the other day searching around the web looking for valve NOS and MINIMUM values. I went at it from a number of angles, including looking at Valve Tester data and instruction sheets, and individual valves, and drew a blank! I’m not the world’s best at internet searches, so maybe I missed something.
> 
> ...


Yes pretty much, except most testers specified either minimum good values or NOS values....but rarely both.  The vintage testers came with either roll charts or books from the manufacturer that in addition to specifying the settings for testing a particular tube provided either that NOS or minimum good value (which was usually around 60% of NOS) to compare with the actual reading of the tube under test.  My Hickok 752A specifies minimum good values (but not NOS). In the example below, this particular tube would have a minimum good mutual transconductance (GM) value of 450 (as the x2 multiplier is used), and translate roughly to a GM of 750 as the NOS value.  This corresponds quite well with the transconductance shown in a tube data sheet with 180v on the plates (although the Hickok tests at 150v, it's close enough for testing the relative goodness of a tube).

Hickok 752A:




1A4 Tube Data Sheet (Tung Sol):




Other testers (including other Hickok models) provided the actual NOS value for reference.  Below is from a Hickok 800A that indicates NOS values rather than minimum good:





And then there were some that just had "*Bad** |  ?  | **Good*" sections marked on their meters that didn't specify any particular test value -- you just looked at which section the meter needle landed in.  Emission-only testers were usually set up like this (they didn't measure GM anyway), although some of the B&K GM testers like the 747 also used this method.  Sample below from a 747:



 

This help any, or just raise more questions?


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> Yes pretty much, except most testers specified either minimum good values or NOS values....but rarely both.  The vintage testers came with either roll charts or books from the manufacturer that in addition to specifying the settings for testing a particular tube provided either that NOS or minimum good value (which was usually around 60% of NOS) to compare with the actual reading of the tube under test.  My Hickok 752A specifies minimum good values (but not NOS). In the example below, this particular tube would have a minimum good mutual transconductance (GM) value of 450 (as the x2 multiplier is used), and translate roughly to a GM of 750 as the NOS value.  This corresponds quite well with the transconductance shown in a tube data sheet with 180v on the plates (although the Hickok tests at 150v, it's close enough for testing the relative goodness of a tube).
> 
> Hickok 752A:
> 
> ...


Yes it helps, esp. the aspect that if minimum "good" is approx. 60% NOS a rough estimate of NOS can be calculated (i.e.- divide by .6), just as you did in your example (450 /0.6 = 750). Then the actual tested measurements can be approximated to determine how close the tube is to NOS.


----------



## Slade01

@JTbbb the other kicker as @bcowen mentioned is whether or not their testers are calibrated properly.  It is entirely possible to skew the results of the tester -- whether in this manner of neglecting to properly calibrate the tester, or due to their stupidity or even deceitful intent by merely using the wrong values to test the tube, thereby skewing the results in their favor.


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> Yes pretty much, except most testers specified either minimum good values or NOS values....but rarely both.  The vintage testers came with either roll charts or books from the manufacturer that in addition to specifying the settings for testing a particular tube provided either that NOS or minimum good value (which was usually around 60% of NOS) to compare with the actual reading of the tube under test.  My Hickok 752A specifies minimum good values (but not NOS). In the example below, this particular tube would have a minimum good mutual transconductance (GM) value of 450 (as the x2 multiplier is used), and translate roughly to a GM of 750 as the NOS value.  This corresponds quite well with the transconductance shown in a tube data sheet with 180v on the plates (although the Hickok tests at 150v, it's close enough for testing the relative goodness of a tube).
> 
> Hickok 752A:
> 
> ...


That is very helpful, thank you. Just as I thought though, not quite an exact science 😀.

What you have said does concur with my limited experience and was partly the reason for asking here.

I have had several pairs of tubes tested by someone (for my own curiosity and peace of mind if I sell) who repairs valve amps and testers. The tests are for Plate Current and Trans Conductance. All tubes passed being told all were well above good, and most, possibly at or near NOS. I think this explanation must mean that the tester used, only provided good figures. The machine used was an AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester.

I guess, with the tubes all being Twin Triodes, any tester can check for balance. All mine were good. I presume there are percentages written down somewhere to say when a TT tube is out of balance?


----------



## tintinsnowydog (Oct 16, 2021)

Another important thing to note- British AVO tester manuals also quote new values with precise parameters for heater, anode, grid voltages instead of bias points. These parameters set up the test at a singular point chosen from/corresponding to a specific point of tube operating curves on datasheets. By choosing another point on the curve with different anode/grid operating points you can plot your own tube curves, measuring dynamically. AVO manuals do not quote minimum values, but the dial on the tester's meter has the red/reject point at 50%, so British/AVO tester owners quoting tubes that tested 'pass' or 'ok' mean 50%+, not necessarily 60%+ like with American testers.

A sample from the AVO manual for the 6AS7


----------



## JTbbb

Slade01 said:


> @JTbbb the other kicker as @bcowen mentioned is whether or not their testers are calibrated properly.  It is entirely possible to skew the results of the tester -- whether in this manner of neglecting to properly calibrate the tester, or due to their stupidity or even deceitful intent by merely using the wrong values to test the tube, thereby skewing the results in their favor.


That is indeed very true. Especially if you are purchasing from the vendor who has also tested them. Fortunately most vendors are honest! Mine were tested by a third party who repairs Classic Valve Amps and also repairs and calibrates valve testers.


----------



## JTbbb

tintinsnowydog said:


> Another important thing to note- British AVO tester manuals also quote new values with precise parameters for heater, anode, grid voltages instead of bias points. These parameters set up the test at a singular point chosen from/corresponding to a specific point of tube operating curves on datasheets. By choosing another point on the curve with different anode/grid operating points you can plot your own tube curves, measuring dynamically. AVO manuals do not quote minimum values, but the dial on the tester's meter has the red/reject point at 50%, so British/AVO tester owners quoting tubes that tested 'pass' or 'ok' mean 50%+, not necessarily 60%+ like with American testers.
> 
> A sample from the AVO manual for the 6AS7


Very interesting indeed. When I did my internet search I came across these curves in the AVO data sheets and didn’t fully understand them, it looked rather complicated! I take from it though from what you have said that you could spend a whole afternoon with one 6AS7, plotting along various curves, and hopefully being able to declare a tube as good as the day it was made. Well I certainly didn’t pay the funds that would demand that sort of scrutiny!


----------



## bcowen (Oct 16, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> That is very helpful, thank you. Just as I thought though, not quite an exact science 😀.
> 
> What you have said does concur with my limited experience and was partly the reason for asking here.
> 
> ...


"Not an exact science" nails it perfectly when it comes to vintage testers.  Well, US made testers to be specific...I have very little experience with European testers and no experience with Russian testers.  60% is a good general figure to use for US testers where minimum values are provided, although that can vary +/- 5% depending on the tube and manufacturer.  As well, most tube data sheets give transconductance specs at more than one plate voltage, and most vintage testers have static plate voltages that can't be adjusted.  Going back to my Hickok 752A, it has two static plate voltages: 150v and 68v.  Looking at a 6SN7 data sheet, the transconductance figures are for plate voltages of 90v and 250v, so you have to extrapolate between them to determine how close a tube is to a NOS value. 






To add to the confusion, many of the vintage testers have internal rectifier tubes (a 5Y3 and an 83 in my 752A).  These tubes will obviously wear (and can drift), and they need to have the two diode sections almost perfectly matched to provide good readings.  A lot of folks using these testers don't even know they have tubes inside them, so whatever readings they get are suspect at best. 

When it comes to matching or balance between the triodes in a dual triode tube, that's a wild guess too.  Lots of people have opinions.  Some consider a less than 10% difference to be well matched, some consider 15%, some 20%, some wouldn't even know what you're talking about.    I honestly couldn't tell you at what point a mismatch would be audible (as in one channel playing louder than the other).  I'd guess around a 20% difference or higher, but that's just a guess.  I usually look for a less than 10% difference in the tubes I use in my amps, but that's just *my* opinion on the matter. 

So with all these vagaries and variables, what good is a vintage tester? For me, a calibrated tester that operates (and is operated) correctly provides some useful information:

1) Most all of these testers do a good job at screening for shorts and interelement leakage, both of which could do some serious damage to a component that doesn't have built-in protection for those defects.
2) They provide a reasonable representation of the tubes emission or GM.  Not exact, not perfect, but reasonable, and way better than not knowing at all.
3) They provide a reasonable representation of the balance in a dual triode tube. Again not exact, but if you're testing both triodes with the same voltages, the relative reading between the two is a fair measure.
4) They're fun to play with.  OK, I'm a geek.   

My biggest pet peeve with people using these testers is when I see statements like "Tests good on my B&K 700."  That kind of info (by itself) is totally worthless. If someone is going to state the tubes were tested, then provide all the relevant information so that a potential buyer can make an informed decision.


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> "Not an exact science" nails it perfectly when it comes to vintage testers.  Well, US made testers to be specific...I have very little experience with European testers and no experience with Russian testers.  60% is a good general figure to use for US testers where minimum values are provided, although that can vary +/- 5% depending on the tube and manufacturer.  As well, most tube data sheets give transconductance specs at more than one plate voltage, and most vintage testers have static plate voltages that can't be adjusted.  Going back to my Hickok 752A, it has two static plate voltages: 150v and 68v.  Looking at a 6SN7 data sheet, the transconductance figures are for plate voltages of 90v and 250v, so you have to extrapolate between them to determine how close a tube is to a NOS value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A well said piece, and boy what a complicated subject it is, as well as fascinating.

I give an example here of a pair of tubes I had tested for PC/TC. “Tung Sol 5998 week 18 1954* : A1 70/12.0  A2 74/12.2 : A1 70/12.0  A2 90/12.4”
The tester noted the disparity in one of the tubes and mentioned it was of no concern whatsoever, I would not discern any volume difference.

These tubes I have used in my Euforia AE before and after testing, both LH and RH channels, and I cannot discern any difference. However, at present I am having built for me a much modified Bottlehead Crack, and one of the things I will definitely be doing is to use this pair of tubes in the Crack. Tube 1 first then tube 2. With my limited knowledge of tubes/electronics, this should be a much better test as the Crack will be using each half for each channel.

I have mentioned “Classic Valve Amps” www.classicvalveamps.co.uk a few times, and the site is well worth a visit for anyone interested in valves etc. Not the easiest of sites to navigate through, but worth it.


----------



## JamieMcC

JTbbb said:


> However, at present I am having built for me a much modified Bottlehead Crack, and one of the things I will definitely be doing is to use this pair of tubes in the Crack. Tube 1 first then tube 2. With my limited knowledge of tubes/electronics, this should be a much better test as the Crack will be using each half for each channel.



I'm pretty sure the Crack uses 6080 as cathode followers and as such they are not so fussy about the actual emission  percentage of the tube,  If emission are low it should still work  though might sound slightly warmer. The thing to look out for when buying used is that these tubes were commonly used in power supplies as shunt regulators, (that is what they were designed for I believe), so its common to find used tubes with one half worn out, and the other half measuring perfectly good if they have are pulls from such equipment.


----------



## JTbbb

Pair of “421A’s” just come up on hifishark today, at yahoo auctions Japan. About as blatantly dodgy as you can get!


----------



## raindownthunda

I have a 6AS7G tube that makes intense crackling/popping noises after being turned on for a few mins. I tried re-flowing & adding new solder to all of the pins and it's still happening. Before I toss this tube in the trash, is there anything else I can try?


----------



## Odin412

raindownthunda said:


> I have a 6AS7G tube that makes intense crackling/popping noises after being turned on for a few mins. I tried re-flowing & adding new solder to all of the pins and it's still happening. Before I toss this tube in the trash, is there anything else I can try?


I've had the same issue. For some tubes it has gone away after a while, for others it hasn't. I'm curious about other folks' experiences.


----------



## CADCAM

I have three CEI 6080 tubes, two have a dark base and one has a light base. Anyone know the differences if any and who makes these? Did CEI make their own or are they a rebrand?


----------



## gibosi

To the best of my knowledge, CEI had no factories. They sourced tubes from various manfacturers.

The slight differences you note could be the result of sourcing tubes from different manufacturers or sourcing tubes manufactured in the same factory but at different times. 

In the end, the only way to figure this out is to closely examine the construction of the ones you have and then compare them to known tubes from various manufactures. Also, if you can post some high quality pictures, some of us might be able to help you figure out what you have.


----------



## plb0202

Hi All,

I have been reading this thread with great interest and a more than a little fear and trepidation.  This is my first venture in to the world of tube amps/pres and am looking to start the tube rolling experience.  I have a Woo Audio WA22 and from the specs it looks there are quite a few options when it comes to rolling the 6080 power tubes.  Where would be a good place to start in regards to learning about rolling power tubes and the options that are available out there for researching the purchasing of these.  I guess I am trying to avoid falling for the wrong thing because it looks "shiny" on Ebay and appears to have measured well.

Many thanks in advance.


----------



## Galapac

plb0202 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been reading this thread with great interest and a more than a little fear and trepidation.  This is my first venture in to the world of tube amps/pres and am looking to start the tube rolling experience.  I have a Woo Audio WA22 and from the specs it looks there are quite a few options when it comes to rolling the 6080 power tubes.  Where would be a good place to start in regards to learning about rolling power tubes and the options that are available out there for researching the purchasing of these.  I guess I am trying to avoid falling for the wrong thing because it looks "shiny" on Ebay and appears to have measured well.
> 
> Many thanks in advance.


I had these notes on 6080/6AS7 variants and you can also search this thread for more information.



6AS7 TUBE ROLLING with notes - courtesy of @glitch39 

6080 - low gain @ 2- great vocals, wide soundstaging

7236 - medium gain - great bass, fast and dynamic. Almost SS sounding

5998A - medium gain in straight bottle. Plate construction like 6AS7.

5998 - medium gain at 5, full-bodied sound, same current load as 6AS7

421A - same as 5998 but with matched plates/sections

6AS7G - low gain, the standard tube for most, plentiful

6AS7GA - low gain, like the standard 6AS7G in striaght bottle

6520 - premium 6SA7G, sometimes with 5998 plates

6H13 - russian 6AS7G equivalent. nothing magical with these

ECC230 - european 6AS7G equivalent. haven't seen one in person

6528 - equiv to 5998 but very high gain at 9, twice the current load. Make sure you amp can handle it

6336 - like 6528 but low gain at 2, still twice current load. Make sure you amp can handle it


----------



## bcowen

plb0202 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been reading this thread with great interest and a more than a little fear and trepidation.  This is my first venture in to the world of tube amps/pres and am looking to start the tube rolling experience.  I have a Woo Audio WA22 and from the specs it looks there are quite a few options when it comes to rolling the 6080 power tubes.  Where would be a good place to start in regards to learning about rolling power tubes and the options that are available out there for researching the purchasing of these.  I guess I am trying to avoid falling for the wrong thing because it looks "shiny" on Ebay and appears to have measured well.
> 
> Many thanks in advance.


Reading through this thread is a great place to start.  

There's also a WA22 thread, although I haven't read through it to see if there's much info on tubes (rather than just the amp itself):

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/woo-wa22.423296/


----------



## JamieMcC

This was one of the old reference reviews of the better sounding 6080 / 6as7g that was posted on the original Bottlehead forum. 

While the pictures seem not to have been archived when the new forum went live about ten years ago the different tubes are easy enough to Google image search.

It's a really good place to start if new to this   type of tube. Do be aware you need to be cautious with the 6as7g identification as there are especially on eBay crooks who  rebranded Russian tubes as the more premium makes you don't want to be spending $100 for what is in reality a $20 tube.

http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html


----------



## plb0202

bcowen said:


> Reading through this thread is a great place to start.
> 
> There's also a WA22 thread, although I haven't read through it to see if there's much info on tubes (rather than just the amp itself):
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/woo-wa22.423296/


Thank you.


----------



## plb0202

JamieMcC said:


> This was one of the old reference reviews of the better sounding 6080 / 6as7g that was posted on the original Bottlehead forum.
> 
> While the pictures seem not to have been archived when the new forum went live about ten years ago the different tubes are easy enough to Google image search.
> 
> ...


Thank you. This is a difficulty I am having. Knowing what is actually the real deal rather and avoiding being ripped off.  I have managed to find a nice rectifier locally. It has made a massive difference to the sound.  Finding a nice high quality NOS 6080 or equivalent is proving a lot harder in Oz.


----------



## CADCAM (Nov 4, 2021)

sorry deleted post 
already answered


----------



## JTbbb

If it can be trusted. A really nice pair of 5998’s have come onto eBay. Located in Taiwan, and fair pricing.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (Nov 6, 2021)

JTbbb said:


> If it can be trusted. A really nice pair of 5998’s have come onto eBay. Located in Taiwan, and fair pricing.


Thanks a lot just have pulled a trigger. If this is not fake it tests as NOS as i understand.


----------



## JTbbb

bpiotrow13 said:


> Thans a lot just have pulled a trigger. If this is not fake it tests as NOS as i understand.


Haha, nice grab. They look good, and I’m sure they will be.


----------



## flea22

Hey

What would be considered a good easy to obtain bottle shaped 6as7?


----------



## raindownthunda

flea22 said:


> Hey
> 
> What would be considered a good easy to obtain bottle shaped 6as7?


RCA 6AS7G and Svetlana 6N13S (and their many rebrands) are both inexpensive and available. I‘d start there if you’re looking to dip your toes in.


----------



## HTSkywalker

raindownthunda said:


> RCA 6AS7G and Svetlana 6N13S (and their many rebrands) are both inexpensive and available. I‘d start there if you’re looking to dip your toes in.


Yeah I second the 6AS7G 👍


----------



## Pansbjorne (Nov 13, 2021)

Anyone have recommendations for really "tubey" or warm sounding tubes? For reference I got a set of Philips 6080 and Sovtek 6as7


----------



## Renexx (Nov 13, 2021)

If those Philips are rebranded Mullard then you already got the softest, warmest and most tubey sounding power tubes available.

Warm, punchy and cheap would be RCA 6as7g.


----------



## Pansbjorne

Renexx said:


> If those Philips are rebranded Mullard then you already got the softest, warmest and most tubey sounding power tubes available.
> 
> Warm, punchy and cheap would be RCA 6as7g.


Is there any way to tell lol. All the markings have pretty much been worn off


----------



## gibosi

Pansbjorne said:


> Is there any way to tell lol. All the markings have pretty much been worn off



From the picture I can't determine if both tubes are identical. But the tube on the right is definitely a Philips / Mullard. The production code is somewhat visible. Although I can't read every character, it looks like the top row reads AJ1 and that is the Mullard / Philips code for a 6080.


----------



## exchez

Pansbjorne said:


> Is there any way to tell lol. All the markings have pretty much been worn off


The bottom row appears to start with an "R" which would mean it's from Mullard's Mitcham plant.


----------



## maxpudding

Now I understand why the A1834 is one of the most sought after power tubes. It pairs well with the tung-sol 6J5G’s. Loving the combo with my VC.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Pansbjorne said:


> Anyone have recommendations for really "tubey" or warm sounding tubes? For reference I got a set of Philips 6080 and Sovtek 6as7


RCA should serve you well.


----------



## Renexx (Nov 14, 2021)

Pansbjorne said:


> Is there any way to tell lol. All the markings have pretty much been worn off


 Yours should be mullard rebranded with Philips.

Those are my military ones for reference.
They will get a listen tonight 🎧




RCA 6as7g  warm, punchy , cheap and available. Less resolution than the others.

Tungsol 6as7g is warm, lush  and holographic sounding. But they became quite rare these days. Expert tip.

GEC 6080 is more easily obtainable, slightly warm with good staging, seperation and resolution. Price performance is best.

GEC 6as7g would be holy grail of warm tubes with strong rarity and price. Still slightly  behind 5998 in technicalities I must say.

5998 (or 421a) get these and be happy with the best power tube available in your slot. It's the least warm tube of those I mentioned.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 14, 2021)

maxpudding said:


> Now I understand why the A1834 is one of the most sought after power tubes. It pairs well with the tung-sol 6J5G’s. Loving the combo with my VC.


Man, I want one of those just for the looks.   

The TS 6J5G's are pretty righteous no matter what you pair them with, IMO.


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> Yours should be mullard rebranded with Philips.
> 
> Those are my military ones for reference.
> They will get a listen tonight 🎧
> ...


Can't say I've ever even seen a Tung Sol 6AS7G?


----------



## Renexx

bcowen said:


> Can't say I've ever even seen a Tung Sol 6AS7G?


Hehe when I discovered it's unique and romantic sound I did buy 2 pairs here on Headfi.
 Love the sound of these.


----------



## kimdeug

raindownthunda said:


> I have a 6AS7G tube that makes intense crackling/popping noises after being turned on for a few mins. I tried re-flowing & adding new solder to all of the pins and it's still happening. Before I toss this tube in the trash, is there anything else I can try?


If you have fuse in amp, try to replace the fuse. Very cheap try less than 1 dollar.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> Man, I want one of those just for the looks.
> 
> The TS 6J5G's are pretty righteous no matter what you pair them with, IMO.



Yeah, most of the power tubes that I have paired well with the TS 6J5G's, except the NEC 6080. Somehow, the sound just fell...flat. Probably just need a little bit more time.
Good looking adapter you've got there


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> Yeah, most of the power tubes that I have paired well with the TS 6J5G's, except the NEC 6080. Somehow, the sound just fell...flat. Probably just need a little bit more time.
> Good looking adapter you've got there


Thanks!

I had an NEC 6520...."had" because I dropped it and the stupid glass shattered.  Japanese stuff was made pretty cheaply back in those days.  

Didn't get to listen to it much before I broke it.....





...but it sounded eerily similar to an RCA 6AS7G for some unexplainable reason.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I had an NEC 6520...."had" because I dropped it and the stupid glass shattered.  Japanese stuff was made pretty cheaply back in those days.
> 
> ...



Yeah that’s too bad 🥲 very rarely the 6520 would go on sale…

I have some NEC 6AS7’s that I bought from Japan recently, they do have similar constructions as the RCA 6AS7. The prints, some are yellow colored, some are white colored. I bet they sound similar anyways 😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

I tried the Matsushita 6SN7 Japanese tubes, construction is also poor and the  sound is less than average


----------



## Velozity

Renexx said:


> Hehe when I discovered it's unique and romantic sound I did buy 2 pairs here on Headfi.
> Love the sound of these.



Have pics?  Are you referring to the Chatham 6AS7G?


----------



## Renexx (Nov 18, 2021)

I have 2 pairs of Chatham bottom getter and a Tungsol top getter and both sound the same.


----------



## Dogmatrix

My best pair carry both brand names although they are 6520 , but it does illustrate the familiarity between the two names


----------



## bpiotrow13

Dogmatrix said:


> My best pair carry both brand names although they are 6520 , but it does illustrate the familiarity between the two names


Nice I do not understand the 6520 number fully. I thought originally it is the same as 6as7g, but there is currently an offer on head fi for tung sol 6520 and it looks inside as 5998, not 6as7.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bpiotrow13 said:


> Nice I do not understand the 6520 number fully. I thought originally it is the same as 6as7g, but there is currently an offer on head fi for tung sol 6520 and it looks inside as 5998, not 6as7.



I have two 6520s that look like 5998s and one that looks like a 6AS7G. The first two are some of my best tubes for the Bottlehead Crack. Slightly less detail than a 5998 but fuller body. The last one sounds like a regular TS 6AS7G.

I recommend adding one to the collection. Nice tube and quite rare.


----------



## DarkDrummer

Ripper2860 said:


> This is different.  UFO and Saucer are interchangeable terms, but my Svetlana Winged Cs look just like a pill inside a square foil packet,


Some pictures would really be nice!!!


----------



## lumdicks

Got these beauties today and I enjoy it much more than the WE421A. It simply ticks all boxes with better micro details, sweeter and warmer mid and pleasant tonality. I am pairing them with WE274A and Marconi B65 in my Woo WA22, and the synergy is exceptional. With these I finally reached my endgame in tube rolling.


----------



## bpiotrow13

lumdicks said:


> Got these beauties today and I enjoy it much more than the WE421A. It simply ticks all boxes with better micro details, sweeter and warmer mid and pleasant tonality. I am pairing them with WE274A and Marconi B65 in my Woo WA22, and the synergy is exceptional. With these I finally reached my endgame in tube rolling.


Wow, it must have cost a fortune Looks impresive


----------



## jonathan c

lumdicks said:


> Got these beauties today and I enjoy it much more than the WE421A. It simply ticks all boxes with better micro details, sweeter and warmer mid and pleasant tonality. I am pairing them with WE274A and Marconi B65 in my Woo WA22, and the synergy is exceptional. With these I finally reached my endgame in tube rolling.


Now it is time for backups…😂


----------



## CaptainFantastic

jonathan c said:


> Now it is time for backups…😂



And back-ups for the back-ups.


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 1, 2021)

CaptainFantastic said:


> And back-ups for the back-ups.


Algebraically that could end up as:

Backup^Backup


----------



## HTSkywalker

lumdicks said:


> Got these beauties today and I enjoy it much more than the WE421A. It simply ticks all boxes with better micro details, sweeter and warmer mid and pleasant tonality. I am pairing them with WE274A and Marconi B65 in my Woo WA22, and the synergy is exceptional. With these I finally reached my endgame in tube rolling.


See you have the Final Audio phones 😍
How do they sound with tubes ?


----------



## bpiotrow13 (Dec 1, 2021)

CaptainFantastic said:


> And back-ups for the back-ups.


The back up issue causes i only buy tubes i can afford to have a few back up pairs.. if i only have one pair i could get used to it too much in case it fails


----------



## lumdicks

HTSkywalker said:


> See you have the Final Audio phones 😍
> How do they sound with tubes ?


It sounds good with WA22 but I prefer its pairing with Kinki more. I have done my tube rolling with Susvara as reference (WA22 as preamp, Kinki as poweramp) but I shall spend more time on the D8000 and Empyrean, which can be driven by WA22 alone.


----------



## lumdicks (Dec 2, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Now it is time for backups…😂



Talking about backup.......


----------



## lumdicks

Talking about backup......


----------



## bpiotrow13

lumdicks said:


> Talking about backup......


Good, I am doing exactly the same


----------



## thecrow (Dec 2, 2021)

lumdicks said:


> Got these beauties today and I enjoy it much more than the WE421A. It simply ticks all boxes with better micro details, sweeter and warmer mid and pleasant tonality. I am pairing them with WE274A and Marconi B65 in my Woo WA22, and the synergy is exceptional. With these I finally reached my endgame in tube rolling.


The gec6as7g have no comparison.

They are set and forget - with no need to buy or roll any other 6080/6as7g tubes

imho and, at least, for my preferences (with my wa2)


----------



## bpiotrow13

thecrow said:


> he gec6as7g have no comparison.
> 
> They are set and forget - with no need to buy or roll any other 6080/6as7g tubes
> 
> imho and, at least, for my preferences (with my wa2)


I can only belive it, but where to buy gec 6as7 for decent price?


----------



## thecrow

bpiotrow13 said:


> I can only belive it, but where to buy gec 6as7 for decent price?


That’s the kicker - prices have become ridiculous and imho even make these tube amps less attractive for those that know about the tube options before buying the tube amp. Personally i bought my wa2 before looking into tubes. 
But knowing what i know and having heard what i have heard now (ie various tubes) I would be somewhat reluctant to buy the wa2 as I would probably want the gec tubes and would not settle for any of the others options. So I would have to include the cost of these tubes with the cost of the amp (as a total expenditure) in making a decision to buy the amp or not. 


Luckily….I found my gec tubes a few years ago. Managed to pick up about 5 or 6 over time and only one has died thus far.
They were never sold as perfectly matched,. And slime I picked up as singles but they have come up with no problems for my listening.
A few have a slight hum that is audible when no music is being played - and i can put up with that rather than paying typical high prices which have even gone up by about 40% in the last few years.

Keep an eye out for them on eBay and you may get lucky on a half decent pair at a half decent price. 

Or buy one very good pair at whatever price you can manage to get and you’re set…..if that suits your preferences. 
Remember a great pair, let alone (close to ) NOS should last quite a few years. 

Otherwise there is also the we421a or the Tung sol 5998 which are suitable mid price options 

Ymmv, my 2c


----------



## bpiotrow13

thecrow said:


> That’s the kicker - prices have become ridiculous and imho even make these tube amps less attractive for those that know about the tube options before buying the tube amp. Personally i bought my wa2 before looking into tubes.
> But knowing what i know and having heard what i have heard now (ie various tubes) I would be somewhat reluctant to buy the wa2 as I would probably want the gec tubes and would not settle for any of the others options. So I would have to include the cost of these tubes with the cost of the amp (as a total expenditure) in making a decision to buy the amp or not.
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, wa2 is good, I also have it. However, I prefer warmer sound I think. I will have a chance to listen to custom OTL shortly and I may want to sell wa2. It sounds very good with other tubes as well (eg sylvania 7236), but probably I like more warm.

I have 4 pairs of TS 5998 already and some others


----------



## thecrow

bpiotrow13 said:


> Yeah, wa2 is good, I also have it. However, I prefer warmer sound I think. I will have a chance to listen to custom OTL shortly and I may want to sell wa2. It sounds very good with other tubes as well (eg sylvania 7236), but probably I like more warm.
> 
> I have 4 pairs of TS 5998 already and some others


I get my tone added via my holland 6dj8 tubes (and my detail through the gec6as7g) but I appreciate that if you lean towards a warmer sound that can be tackled through other 6080 tubes - and even with inexpensive options


----------



## bpiotrow13

thecrow said:


> I get my tone added via my holland 6dj8 tubes (and my detail through the gec6as7g) but I appreciate that if you lean towards a warmer sound that can be tackled through other 6080 tubes - and even with inexpensive options


I think the key would be to change driver tubes. Will experiment a bit. As mentioned, maybe I will go for custom OTL, but in any case using 6as7/6080 family


----------



## thecrow

bpiotrow13 said:


> I think the key would be to change driver tubes. Will experiment a bit. As mentioned, maybe I will go for custom OTL, but in any case using 6as7/6080 family


With the wa2 I’ve always described it as the power tubes are the character of the canvas or the base of the painting that you start with and from there the driver tubes adds the extra texture, colour, character. So they both play their role imho

Not sure if much comes from the rectifiers (in a significant manner) as I never went much down that path with my amp


----------



## CADCAM

Can anyone elaborate on the different extensions at the end of Raytheon 6080 tube names? I've seen WA,WC,WB,CK, etc.
thanks for any input


----------



## HTSkywalker

lumdicks said:


> Talking about backup......


Quality tubes you have 😍😍


----------



## HTSkywalker

thecrow said:


> The gec6as7g have no comparison.
> 
> They are set and forget - with no need to buy or roll any other 6080/6as7g tubes
> 
> imho and, at least, for my preferences (with my wa2)


Did you have the chance to compare it to the Chatham ?


----------



## thecrow (Dec 2, 2021)

HTSkywalker said:


> Did you have the chance to compare it to the Chatham ?


I have one pair of ts5998 and had one pair of we421a that i had to return due to too much pinging going on.

the we421a was a few years ago. What i remember was they had a bit more energy (i guess more up top) than the ts. Take that memory with a grain of salt but that’s my memory and story and i’m sticking to it.

the ts are better than all otter tubes that i have tried re openness but the gec6as7g are easily another level above. The detail and extension are fantastic

And even tough prices have gone up a lot i would personally pay these prices (say just under $1000 usd) for one very good/nos pair as this suits me to a tee - but that’s the rabbit hole this hobby provides and ymmv

one thing i have found with tubes is quality (again that suits your preferences) over quantity And for me it’s having one of these pairs and a few different driver pairs to roll - eg holland tubes, telefunkens and siemens


----------



## gibosi

CADCAM said:


> Can anyone elaborate on the different extensions at the end of Raytheon 6080 tube names? I've seen WA,WC,WB,CK, etc.
> thanks for any input



WA, WB and WC are tubes destined for use by the military, with WA being the earliest and WC being the latest. The differences were likely related to such things as durability, long-life and low noise. These incremental changes typically have little or no effect on the audio sound. But could be important in tubes used in tanks, aircraft and so on.

CK is a branding scheme. I simply means Raytheon. So a CK6080 is simply a Raytheon 6080. That said, I don't think Raytheon manufactured the 6080, 6AS7G or similar. They simply sourced these tubes from other manufactures, such as, Tung-Sol, Bendix or similar.


----------



## gibosi

thecrow said:


> With the wa2 I’ve always described it as the power tubes are the character of the canvas or the base of the painting that you start with and from there the driver tubes adds the extra texture, colour, character. So they both play their role imho
> 
> Not sure if much comes from the rectifiers (in a significant manner) as I never went much down that path with my amp



In my experience, if one has a transparent amp, rectifiers have as much impact on the sound as the drivers or output tubes.


----------



## Velozity

gibosi said:


> In my experience, if one has a transparent amp, rectifiers have as much impact on the sound as the drivers or output tubes.



^^ This x 100.  The rectifier makes a big difference in my GOTL, and once I stumbled on the GEC U18/20 that's the one tube that rarely leaves the amp.  It took everything to another level.  I even sold the GEC 6AS7G I had and don't necessarily miss them so long as my rectifier stays put.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

First IBM-labeled 5998 I've seen: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125031724910?hash=item1d1c78b76e:g:9e4AAOSwpaxhqUl2

It seems like a proper 5998, domino plates, oval plastic parts at the top, etc. Am I missing something? Decent price too, but of course who knows how used it is.


----------



## raindownthunda

CaptainFantastic said:


> First IBM-labeled 5998 I've seen: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125031724910?hash=item1d1c78b76e:g:9e4AAOSwpaxhqUl2
> 
> It seems like a proper 5998, domino plates, oval plastic parts at the top, etc. Am I missing something? Decent price too, but of course who knows how used it is.


Not super common, but weirdly enough there have been ~7-8 of these IBM labeled 5998's on Ebay in the past week alone


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> First IBM-labeled 5998 I've seen: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125031724910?hash=item1d1c78b76e:g:9e4AAOSwpaxhqUl2
> 
> It seems like a proper 5998, domino plates, oval plastic parts at the top, etc. Am I missing something? Decent price too, but of course who knows how used it is.



IBM used these in their early mainframe computers, and they do popup on eBay every so often.


----------



## bcowen (Dec 3, 2021)

gibosi said:


> IBM used these in their early mainframe computers, and they do popup on eBay every so often.





raindownthunda said:


> Not super common, but weirdly enough there have been ~7-8 of these IBM labeled 5998's on Ebay in the past week alone


Yup.  Grabbed one myself.  Seller states it tests right at NOS.  We'll see once I get it.


----------



## HTSkywalker

gibosi said:


> WA, WB and WC are tubes destined for use by the military, with WA being the earliest and WC being the latest. The differences were likely related to such things as durability, long-life and low noise. These incremental changes typically have little or no effect on the audio sound. But could be important in tubes used in tanks, aircraft and so on.
> 
> CK is a branding scheme. I simply means Raytheon. So a CK6080 is simply a Raytheon 6080. That said, I don't think Raytheon manufactured the 6080, 6AS7G or similar. They simply sourced these tubes from other manufactures, such as, Tung-Sol, Bendix or similar.


Raytheon used to take care of the military supplies mainly by outsourcing them with specific military specs like ruggedness or blackening etc.


----------



## Renexx

I got these 5998s for 200$ by vacuumtubes.net and they seem NIB to me. Actually I can't tell by the measurements if they test NOS.
Can somebody tell ?

People in another thread made me curious about my purchase because of bad experiences with the tube seller vacuumtubes.net


----------



## Galapac (Dec 7, 2021)

$200 a piece, right?
vacuumtubes.net isn’t a bad place per se but they are not in the business of selling to audiophiles like a Brent Jessee. https://www.audiotubes.com/

Just keep that in mind when buying from vacuumtubes. They only guarantee that they will light up, free of debris, etc.
They do not test for sound quality but if you know 5998s, they should sound good if they test good.


----------



## Renexx

200$ a pair. Other tubes are very reasonable priced also. But some people her at the forum seem to have made bad experiences with the seller. This was my only purchase there.

Can somebody tell about the measurements on my tubes ?


----------



## Pansbjorne

Any other good spots to look for tubes? Seemed like audiotubes.com only had RCA


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 12, 2021)

gibosi said:


> In my experience, if one has a transparent amp, rectifiers have as much impact on the sound as the drivers or output tubes.


Given the role of the rectifier tube in the AC -> DC ‘rectification’, would not that tube’s performance directly impact the performance of any tube which ‘electrically followed’ it? [my non-EE expression] And thus have the most impact on sound quality?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Given the role of the rectifier tube in the AC -> DC ‘rectification’, would not that tube’s performance directly impact the performance of any tube which ‘electrically followed’ it? [my non-EE expression] And thus have the most impact on sound quality?


That's one way of looking at it.  The other way is that the tube is only converting AC to DC, so what difference could it possibly make as long as it's working correctly?  Don't mean to turn this into a cable discussion though  so I'll just say that I personally hear pretty substantial differences in rectifier tubes, regardless of the reason(ing) behind it. In fact, rectifier tubes were what actually started my tube rolling addiction hobby 30-some years ago replacing some Chinese 5AR4's with NOS RCA's.  After hearing _that_, everything else followed.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's one way of looking at it.  The other way is that the tube is only converting AC to DC, so what difference could it possibly make as long as it's working correctly?  Don't mean to turn this into a cable discussion though  so I'll just say that I personally hear pretty substantial differences in rectifier tubes, regardless of the reason(ing) behind it. In fact, rectifier tubes were what actually started my tube rolling addiction hobby 30-some years ago replacing some Chinese 5AR4's with NOS RCA's.  After hearing _that_, everything else followed.


…just think, had your first ‘roll’ been a GE, there would have been no addiction hobby…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …just think, had your first ‘roll’ been a GE, there would have been no addiction hobby…


🤣🤣

And I likely would have made a complete fool of myself singing praises about Chinese rectifiers...  😆


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> 🤣🤣
> 
> And I likely would have made a complete fool of myself singing praises about Chinese rectifiers...  😆


or about Mao Tse Tung…


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> 🤣🤣
> 
> And I likely would have made a complete fool of myself singing praises about Chinese rectifiers...  😆



Actually, this Chinese rectifier, A Shuguang 5Z3PA, manufactured in 1973, isn't too bad.


----------



## David222 (Dec 12, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Given the role of the rectifier tube in the AC -> DC ‘rectification’, would not that tube’s performance directly impact the performance of any tube which ‘electrically followed’ it? [my non-EE expression] And thus have the most impact on sound quality?



Feel free to beat up the tube newbie for interjecting....good learning experience

I agree with your post that rectifier impacts performance and whatever tubes "follow". 

--> Isn't the perceived rectifier sound characteristics (pos., neut., neg.)  the vDrop variance / relationship between vDrop and the output/Driver Tubes?

http://www.fourwater.com/files/fullrect.txt




jonathan c said:


>


----------



## gibosi

David222 said:


> Feel free to beat up the tube newbie for interjecting....good learning experience
> 
> --> Isn't the perceived rectifier sound characteristics (pos., neut., neg.)  the vDrop variance / relationship between vDrop and the output/Driver Tubes?
> 
> http://www.fourwater.com/files/fullrect.txt



Many claim that vDrop explains why rectifiers often sound different. But I found 3 very different rectifiers that had the same vDrop, as measured in my amp, and they all sounded different. But according to the vDrop explanation, all of the them should have sounded the same. So at least in my experience, vDrop values do not explain the sound of a rectifier.

To my mind, the sound of a rectifier corresponds to harmonic distortion. After all, the 50 or 60 Hertz coming out of the wall is essentially an audio frequency. And the upper harmonics, which are too high to be filtered by the average power supply circuity, are what determine the "sound" of a rectifier. But of course, many disagree with me.


----------



## David222

gibosi said:


> Many claim that vDrop explains why rectifiers often sound different. But I found 3 very different rectifiers that had the same vDrop, as measured in my amp, and they all sounded different. But according to the vDrop explanation, all of the them should have sounded the same. So at least in my experience, vDrop values do not explain the sound of a rectifier.
> 
> To my mind, the sound of a rectifier corresponds to harmonic distortion. After all, the 50 or 60 Hertz coming out of the wall is essentially an audio frequency. And the upper harmonics, which are too high to be filtered by the average power supply circuity, are what determine the "sound" of a rectifier. But of course, many disagree with me.



Great point and good learning (selfishly for me).  I don't disagree and should have been clear in my previous post above (re: vDrop) that my comment was an observation when folks compare varying rectifiers 5AR4 to 5U4G (where vDrop delta is more substantial).

On an apples-to-apples basis I do not have enough experience to dare pass judgement and leave that to the professionals, you supremes


----------



## jonathan c

gibosi said:


> Many claim that vDrop explains why rectifiers often sound different. But I found 3 very different rectifiers that had the same vDrop, as measured in my amp, and they all sounded different. But according to the vDrop explanation, all of the them should have sounded the same. So at least in my experience, vDrop values do not explain the sound of a rectifier.


Another instance, then, where a phenomenon with multiple attributes - sound - cannot be captured by one measure (or by a mix of measures…)🤷🏻


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Another instance, then, where a phenomenon with multiple attributes - sound - cannot be captured by one measure (or by a mix of measures…)🤷🏻


Are you suggesting we can hear things that can't be measured?  Blasphemy!  All those years of reading Stereo Review down the toilet.


----------



## jonathan c (Dec 12, 2021)

gibosi said:


> After all, the 50 or 60 Hertz coming out of the wall is essentially an audio frequency.


🤪…the DarkVoice, then, is _faithfully reproducing _or _transparently passing through _that 50 Hz or 60 Hz 🙉. That makes it a pinnacle in the headphone amplifier world! 🤪


----------



## Renexx

Can somebody tell if Sylvania 6080 and Sylvania 7236 sound any different or is it just the same tube with different base design ?


----------



## Dogmatrix

Renexx said:


> Can somebody tell if Sylvania 6080 and Sylvania 7236 sound any different or is it just the same tube with different base design ?


Different tube , higher gain more like a 5998 than 6080


----------



## Renexx

Did someone listen to the Sylvania 7236 and can compare them  soundwise ?


----------



## lumdicks

Renexx said:


> Did someone listen to the Sylvania 7236 and can compare them  soundwise ?






I have got this and it is a very good power tube. Power output and performance are quite similar to 5998 and the price to performance ratio is very high. I do not use it much but as I have just got a metal base GZ34, will give it more working time with Marconi B65 in a all metal base combo in my WA22.


----------



## lumdicks

lumdicks said:


> I have got this and it is a very good power tube. Power output and performance are quite similar to 5998 and the price to performance ratio is very high. I do not use it much but as I have just got a metal base GZ34, will give it more working time with Marconi B65 in a all metal base combo in my WA22.


Here comes the all metal base league.


----------



## fuzzroffe

lumdicks said:


> I have got this and it is a very good power tube. Power output and performance are quite similar to 5998 and the price to performance ratio is very high. I do not use it much but as I have just got a metal base GZ34, will give it more working time with Marconi B65 in a all metal base combo in my WA22.


The Sylvania 7236 is one of my favorites in the "big dual triode" family, along with the Chatham 6AS7G. So far at least, I told myself to stop buying more of these tubes even before I found the Chathams, but you never know what suddely shows up at a good price


----------



## Renexx

fuzzroffe said:


> The Sylvania 7236 is one of my favorites in the "big dual triode" family, along with the Chatham 6AS7G. So far at least, I told myself to stop buying more of these tubes even before I found the Chathams, but you never know what suddely shows up at a good price


I told myself to stop buying tubes also and yet we are still here. 😅


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,

are there any other 6AS7G tubes besides the current Rca and Svetlana where you can find?
Not looking for 6080 ,5998 or 7236.
I have enough 6080s and no bad models.

Tend to be more like the Svetlana with more bass to be exact.
Unfortunately I can't afford the Gec and it would be too much of a good thing.


----------



## gibosi

Tung-Sol / Chatham made a nice 6AS7G,

For example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154742686095

but unfortunately they are somewhat rare....


----------



## Deleeh

gibosi said:


> Tung-Sol / Chatham made a nice 6AS7G,
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


Okay, thank you.
Yes, I have also noticed that they are ultra rare.
I've seen the Billigton in England, which somehow also have one, probably branded. My guess is a Svetlana.
I would also like to have them as a pair and as new as possible.


----------



## Pansbjorne

Renexx said:


> I got these 5998s for 200$ by vacuumtubes.net and they seem NIB to me. Actually I can't tell by the measurements if they test NOS.
> Can somebody tell ?
> 
> People in another thread made me curious about my purchase because of bad experiences with the tube seller vacuumtubes.net


Have you tried these out yet? Thinking of picking up a set from there as well.


----------



## leftside

lumdicks said:


> Here comes the all metal base league.


Very nice. Two of those tubes are worth more than the amp.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Tung-Sol / Chatham made a nice 6AS7G,
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


I wish someone would buy that before I'm unable to resist.    One of my favorite tubes in the Incubus.


----------



## lumdicks (Dec 14, 2021)

gibosi said:


> Tung-Sol / Chatham made a nice 6AS7G,
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...





I have got a pair of Chatham 6AS7 at reasonable price and yes, it is very good with a bit softer tone and less emotional than the GEC one.


----------



## Pansbjorne

gibosi said:


> Tung-Sol / Chatham made a nice 6AS7G,
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


If only it was a set... everywhere I checked is sold out


----------



## gibosi

Pansbjorne said:


> If only it was a set... everywhere I checked is sold out



Given that these don't show up all the often, I suggest you accept the fact that if you want a pair, you may have to buy one, and then later, another one. I have had good luck buying singles.


----------



## Pansbjorne

gibosi said:


> Given that these don't show up all the often, I suggest you accept the fact that if you want a pair, you may have to buy one, and then later, another one. I have had good luck buying singles.


Yea... Does matching really matter all that much anyway?


----------



## gibosi

Pansbjorne said:


> Yea... Does matching really matter all that much anyway?



In OTL headphone amps, No. That said, I try to find tubes that were manufactured at about the same time and have similar measurements. You wouldn't want one NOS and the other on it's last legs. But otherrwise, as long as both of them have considerable life left in them, they should be fine.


----------



## raindownthunda

lumdicks said:


> I have got a pair of Chatham 6AS7 at reasonable price and yes, it is very good with a bit softer tone and less emotional than the GEC one.


Chatham 6as7g are great sounding tubes. More warmth/decay to my ears than the more punchy 5998 while still having good detail/separation. I love to match these with more incisive driver tubes but have found them to be very versatile. I think at one point Zach said he likes these in his GOTL.



gibosi said:


> In OTL headphone amps, No. That said, I try to find tubes that were manufactured at about the same time and have similar measurements. You wouldn't want one NOS and the other on it's last legs. But otherrwise, as long as both of them have considerable life left in them, they should be fine.


Ive bought a handful of singles to make pairs and have only seen two variations so far: 
1) clear top, bottom double-d getter
2) chrome top, top double-d getter.

I would try to match construction first, date second if possible. To my ears they all sound about the same though so I don’t think you can go wrong!


----------



## HPAholic

Got a few Chatham 6AS7G but trying to make some matched pairs so the search continues. Also currently chasing some GEC A1834 but they're asking $450.00ea and I want a few


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> Given that these don't show up all the often, I suggest you accept the fact that if you want a pair, you may have to buy one, and then later, another one. I have had good luck buying singles.



Same here, just get tubes that both test relatively the same.

They are great tubes and the other power tubes are getting pretty tuff to find and if you do the price is out there.

I have only listened to my Chathams, they sound great and I have a few.

Heck, I only listen to my Bendix and 5998 and GEC on special occasions.


----------



## Deceneu808

HPAholic said:


> Got a few Chatham 6AS7G but trying to make some matched pairs so the search continues. Also currently chasing some GEC A1834 but they're asking $450.00ea and I want a few


No wonder I can't find any 

On topic


----------



## Deleeh

Hello,

Billigton England has an in-house 6AS7G tube.
Price-wise it would be okay.
But unfortunately you can only find sparse information about them.
Does anyone know more about this tube?
Could it be a simple Svetlana that is branded?

The only information I have is that it is popular in Asia, according to the product description.

That's all there is to it.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> 
> Billigton England has an in-house 6AS7G tube.
> Price-wise it would be okay.
> ...



E-mail Martin and ask him if he has specifically GEC 6AS7Gs. I bought a couple from him earlier this year. It's not cheap and you have to figure in the pain of customs post-Brexit (not only 17% VAT, but also processing costs and in some cases double-VAT because... the insanity of the system). But I think it's a far safer bet than getting something off eBay.


----------



## fuzzroffe

Deleeh said:


> Hello,
> 
> Billigton England has an in-house 6AS7G tube.
> Price-wise it would be okay.
> ...


That looks like a rebranded Svetlana to me. They sound pretty good IMO.


----------



## Deleeh

I am specifically after cheap ones.
I have replaced the capacitors on the 6SN7 socket of the amplifier with Vcaps TFTF.
6SN7 Linlai are also plugged in there.
If I pair these with the 6080 mullards on the 6AS7G socket, something is missing.
In other words, the harmony is no longer in balance.
Before it was fine, everything was rich enough, now not with the Linlai 6SN7/6080 Mullards. 
Until now, strangely enough, cheaper tubes have worked better even though the capacitors have nothing to do with the 6AS7G socket.
At least that is my impression.
The Svetlana has delivered quite solid results so far, as has the 6080 General Electric.
The Svetlana would actually be ideal if it had a bit more bite in the bass range, it would be the tube.
The General Electric is better in the bass range and the rest too, but in the details again a bit more masked.
But I haven't listened to them much yet, just one hour.

I still have the Csf Thomson on the way, some reports read not bad and it might be the one I'm looking for.
The Billgton would still be an option if I knew for sure that it wasn't a Svetlana copy or branding.
Because I could save the money if it was.
The Rca 6AS7G was also okay but does not harmonise with the Linlai, but with other 6SN7 tubes it does.
And then I would have to go back to expensive nos where the market is crazy at the moment.

As you can see, the amp seems to work better with tubes that are still acceptable in price since the capacitors have been replaced.
Which is not necessarily a negative thing, but a positive thing.
Unfortunately, I don't know why that is.
It is just the miserable suffering of finding the right tube, then you have what you are looking for or it remains in vain.😁


----------



## Deleeh

fuzzroffe said:


> That looks like a rebranded Svetlana to me. They sound pretty good IMO.


Hello,
Is there a difference between the Billigton and the Svetlana or are they the same in terms of sound?
I have a pair of Svetlana lying around at home.
I am also of the opinion that it is a Svetlana if you compare the pictures, the tubes have been turned a bit.


----------



## fuzzroffe

I’m pretty sure they would sound the same. As far as I know, Svetlana was the only Russian factory that made the 6AS7.


----------



## Deleeh

fuzzroffe said:


> I’m pretty sure they would sound the same. As far as I know, Svetlana was the only Russian factory that made the 6AS7.


Okay, thanks for your assessment.🙏✌️🙏✌️
Then I guess I saved my money and at least put it into the csf Thomson, which was probably a better decision.
Whether it fits in the end is another story.


----------



## plb0202

I have just received my first pair of TungSol 5998. Please excuse the noob question however they make a lot of noise if I tilt them up and down and move them around in my hand. I approached the seller regarding this and was told it is normal for the 5998. One tube is significantly noisier than the other. Do other 5998 owners experience this same behaviour?  I have not put them in the amp yet for fear of damaging something. 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Dogmatrix

plb0202 said:


> I have just received my first pair of TungSol 5998. Please excuse the noob question however they make a lot of noise if I tilt them up and down and move them around in my hand. I approached the seller regarding this and was told it is normal for the 5998. One tube is significantly noisier than the other. Do other 5998 owners experience this same behaviour?  I have not put them in the amp yet for fear of damaging something.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Could be small pieces of glass from the manufacturing process if so its not a problem in use
Could be the heater elements , heaters have something of a reputation for arcing in the 5998 some in our community will not use them for that reason
Not to say that if they rattle they will definitely arc , they probably wont
If you have an OTL it is safe to run with no headphone attached , transformer coupled amps not so much I use a pair of $10 cans for this
Best practice with all new tubes is to switch on without headphones attached and be ready to switch off  if anything dramatic happens , if they survive the first five minutes they are likely fine
Your amp will likely survive an arc but headphone drivers often don't


----------



## plb0202 (Dec 16, 2021)

Dogmatrix said:


> Could be small pieces of glass from the manufacturing process if so its not a problem in use
> Could be the heater elements , heaters have something of a reputation for arcing in the 5998 some in our community will not use them for that reason
> Not to say that if they rattle they will definitely arc , they probably wont
> If you have an OTL it is safe to run with no headphone attached , transformer coupled amps not so much I use a pair of $10 cans for this
> ...


Thank you @Dogmatrix The Amp is a WA22 which I believe is transformer coupled.  Time to find some cheap and indestructible head phones. I don’t see anything moving around  in the tube itself. If anything it seems to be in the bottom/base of the tube and not visible.


----------



## maxpudding

plb0202 said:


> I have just received my first pair of TungSol 5998. Please excuse the noob question however they make a lot of noise if I tilt them up and down and move them around in my hand. I approached the seller regarding this and was told it is normal for the 5998. One tube is significantly noisier than the other. Do other 5998 owners experience this same behaviour?  I have not put them in the amp yet for fear of damaging something.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I was told by a reputable tube seller that the glasses are the byproduct of the 5998 manufacturing process. I have two 5998s that have small glass particles inside them, but they sound clean and there are no noises. Probably you need to cook them a bit more in the amp.


----------



## plb0202

maxpudding said:


> I was told by a reputable tube seller that the glasses are the byproduct of the 5998 manufacturing process. I have two 5998s that have small glass particles inside them, but they sound clean and there are no noises. Probably you need to cook them a bit more in the amp.


Thanks @maxpudding The tubes are yet to be used.  After trying a few rectifiers and blowing fuses I am yet to turn on the amp without thinking something is going to go bang!  Hopefully this will pass😅

Are the pieces of glass visible in your 5998 tubes?


----------



## maxpudding

plb0202 said:


> Thanks @maxpudding The tubes are yet to be used.  After trying a few rectifiers and blowing fuses I am yet to turn on the amp without thinking something is going to go bang!  Hopefully this will pass😅
> 
> Are the pieces of glass visible in your 5998 tubes?


The glass particles are not visible, but you can clearly hear them 😆


----------



## CADCAM

Quick question for the tube Jedi out there. I have a nice small collection of 6080\6AS7G tubes for my Monoprice Monolith headphone amp. It's the large monolithic slab design no longer available 
https://qa2.monoprice.com/product?p_id=29511
I really enjoy the amp and think it sounds very good but some tubes make a static\distortion sound almost like an old tube radio when in between tuning stations, like an airy puff sound. I believe it to be the power tube as I haven't switched out driver tubes lately. Also if I touch the top of the amp it seems to change\increase\decrease the sounds and if I unplug then plug in my headphones sometimes it seems to go away. I have two Sylvania GB 6080's one is dead silent and one makes these sounds, both sound excellent (aside from the extraneous sounds from the noisy one) All three of my CEI tubes (which sound great) make these sounds to some extent. Sometimes it's so slight you only hear it in between tracks.
Could this be a grounding problem? Bad tubes? Any ideas\advice? Thanks in advance.


----------



## bcowen

CADCAM said:


> Quick question for the tube Jedi out there. I have a nice small collection of 6080\6AS7G tubes for my Monoprice Monolith headphone amp. It's the large monolithic slab design no longer available
> https://qa2.monoprice.com/product?p_id=29511
> I really enjoy the amp and think it sounds very good but some tubes make a static\distortion sound almost like an old tube radio when in between tuning stations, like an airy puff sound. I believe it to be the power tube as I haven't switched out driver tubes lately. Also if I touch the top of the amp it seems to change\increase\decrease the sounds and if I unplug then plug in my headphones sometimes it seems to go away. I have two Sylvania GB 6080's one is dead silent and one makes these sounds, both sound excellent (aside from the extraneous sounds from the noisy one) All three of my CEI tubes (which sound great) make these sounds to some extent. Sometimes it's so slight you only hear it in between tracks.
> Could this be a grounding problem? Bad tubes? Any ideas\advice? Thanks in advance.


My first suggestion would be to clean the tube pins and the tube socket contacts.  May fix the issue, may not, but either way you'll have clean contacts afterwards which is never a bad thing.     Second suggestion would be to reflow the solder in the pins of the offending tube.  While most of the degraded solder issues I've personally run into have been with Russian tubes and Tung Sols, I've had one Sylvania with sporadic noise gremlins that was healed with a quick resolder.


----------



## lumdicks (Dec 24, 2021)

Merry Christmas to all and I really enjoy the smoothness and dynamics of the GEC 6AS7G, driven by Marconi B65 and powered by GEC U52 in my WA22. The GEC MOV combo simply ticks all my boxes of preference.


----------



## whirlwind

lumdicks said:


> Merry Christmas to all and I really enjoy the smoothness and dynamics of the GEC 6AS7G, driven by Marconi B65 and powered by GEC U52 in my WA22. The GEC MOV combo simply ticks all my boxes of preference.


Those are all very high quality of tubes....some of the best for sure.


----------



## lumdicks

whirlwind said:


> Those are all very high quality of tubes....some of the best for sure.


Yes the combo works really great for vocal and acoustic, but may be lacking the final bit of dynamics when compared to below:




WE421A driven by Mullard ECC32, powered by WE274A. Sonically the response is excellent along all frequency, with crazy amount of details and extension of low and high.

I enjoy tube rolling much and WA22 is very sensitive to tube change. I have also tried below 'all metal base' combo and it sounds most balanced with pleasant tonality.




Sylvania 7236 / GEC 6080 driven by B65 and powered by Mullard GZ34 Metal Base.


----------



## gibosi (Dec 27, 2021)

lumdicks said:


> I have also tried below 'all metal base' combo and it sounds most balanced with pleasant tonality.



Inspired by lumdicks all metal roll, I thought I would do something similar. Initially, I wanted to use some metal-base EL41s, but the adapter covered up the bases, ruining the visual effect. But still, these are cool looking tubes:



So instead, a Philips 5AR4, a Melz 1578, and a pair of Mullard 6080:



But that looks really blah... so added a little Google Night Sight magic. 



And yes, it sounds great. The sonic signature of the Melz is very similar to Telefunken, and the bass of the Mullard complements the treble of the Melz very nicely. And then the Philips 5AR4 adds in that romantic lush Holland midrange.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Inspired by lumdicks all metal roll, I thought I would do something similar. Initially, I wanted to use some metal-base EL41s, but the adapter covered up the bases, ruining the visual effect. But still, these are cool looking tubes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome pic!  Love how you can see the filament glow through the hole-y plates in the 1578.

Here's a TungSol 5998 trying to out-do the Melz:


----------



## lumdicks

gibosi said:


> Inspired by lumdicks all metal roll, I thought I would do something similar. Initially, I wanted to use some metal-base EL41s, but the adapter covered up the bases, ruining the visual effect. But still, these are cool looking tubes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is really cool!


----------



## thecrow

CaptainFantastic said:


> E-mail Martin and ask him if he has specifically GEC 6AS7Gs. I bought a couple from him earlier this year. It's not cheap and you have to figure in the pain of customs post-Brexit (not only 17% VAT, but also processing costs and in some cases double-VAT because... the insanity of the system). But I think it's a far safer bet than getting something off eBay.


May i ask who Martin is?


----------



## bcowen

thecrow said:


> May i ask who Martin is?


The dude at Billington Exports in the UK.


----------



## maxpudding

bcowen said:


> The dude at Billington Exports in the UK.



A nice dude from Billington Exports I might add 😆


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> A nice dude from Billington Exports I might add 😆


Yes!  And excellent tube vendor too.


----------



## hmscott (Jan 3, 2022)

Hi all, I've seen posts on Winged C that are positive, and some that are negative on Russian 6AS7 tubes in general, but these are on 10% Off sale + 10% More Off if I get 3 or more, and so, I ordered these:

What do you guys/gals think of these "6as7g" choices for sound/price?:
6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 SVETLANA TUBE Double Triode NOS OTK USSR Lot 1pc. New​6N5S / 6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 SVETLANA TUBE NOS OTK USSR RARE 1950`s lot 1pc. Open box​6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 TUBE SVETLANA Double Triode NOS DATE 1960`s USSR Lot 1pc. New​6N13S /6AS7G /ECC230 /6N5S TUBE SVETLANA TRIODE NOS IN BOX OTK lot 1pc. or more New​I thought I'd order a nice spread of years to give them a chance, what do you think?

BTW, I've got an Xduoo TA-26, that only uses 1 each of the 6AS7/6SN7 tubes, discussed here in the Xduoo Amplifier discussion board.

I'm not gonna see these from Russia for 4-6 weeks, have you run across some nice sounding 6AS7's recently?


----------



## gibosi

The Svetlana Winged C 6AS7G / 6N13S / 6N5S are good sounding tubes. But they are not great! So I wouldn't encourage you to spend top dollar. Go for the cheapest. The Svetlana is a little dark so it works well with brighter 6SN7's and they are usually very quiet.

The only American manufacturer's of the 6AS7G were RCA and Tung-sol / Chatham. And those labeled Sylvania, GE, Raytheon and others are usually RCA rebrands. If you don't already have an RCA 6AS7G, it's a good sounding tube. Tung-Sol / Chatham are not as common, but if you can find one at a good price, it's a good tube too.

Have fun!


----------



## hmscott (Jan 4, 2022)

gibosi said:


> The Svetlana Winged C 6AS7G / 6N13S / 6N5S are good sounding tubes. But they are not great! So I wouldn't encourage you to spend top dollar. Go for the cheapest. The Svetlana is a little dark so it works well with brighter 6SN7's and they are usually very quiet.
> 
> The only American manufacturer's of the 6AS7G were RCA and Tung-sol / Chatham. And those labeled Sylvania, GE, Raytheon and others are usually RCA rebrands. If you don't already have an RCA 6AS7G, it's a good sounding tube. Tung-Sol / Chatham are not as common, but if you can find one at a good price, it's a good tube too.
> 
> Have fun!


Thank you!, I also bought a single tube as described in NEW BOXED MILITARY QUALITY G.E. 6AS7GA DUO-TRIODES FOR AUDIO, which hopefully will also perform well and sound good. 

I do still want to find Step Glass versions, as I've heard they cool better, I'll keep looking 

Thank you for sharing your insights!


----------



## hmscott (Jan 9, 2022)

gibosi said:


> ...The only American manufacturer's of the 6AS7G were RCA and Tung-sol / Chatham. And those labeled Sylvania, GE, Raytheon and others are usually RCA rebrands. If you don't already have an RCA 6AS7G, it's a good sounding tube. Tung-Sol / Chatham are not as common, but if you can find one at a good price, it's a good tube too.
> 
> Have fun!





hmscott said:


> Thank you!, I also bought a single tube as described in NEW BOXED MILITARY QUALITY G.E. 6AS7GA DUO-TRIODES FOR AUDIO, which hopefully will also perform well and sound good.
> 
> I do still want to find Step Glass versions, as I've heard they cool better, I'll keep looking
> 
> Thank you for sharing your insights!


I received the GE 6AS7G early, a couple of days ago, and so far it sounds great!.  It is really small compared to the large stepped glass 6N5P the Xduoo TA-26 came with.

The GE 6AS7G runs about the same temperature as the stock 6N5P, about 143F during use.  This GE 6AS7G measured 98/104 and looks really clean with bright illuminated elements, looming larger than the Sylvania VT-231 6SN7GT (late 40's date code) sitting in front of it, and both together are very clean sounding - no more sharp edges as with the stock tubes.

I'm watching for good deals on RCA 6AS7G, 5998, and 7236 tubes, for next month's tube budget


----------



## CaptainFantastic

I have a couple of quick questions about the GEC 6AS7G. I added a CV2523 today to my collection. This one has an "O-getter", whereas the A1834 I've been listening to lately has a "Cup-getter" (or whatever the right term is for the solid getter with no opening in the middle as seen in the picture).

Question 1 - Is this a difference because of the manufacture date or a difference between the A1834 and CV2523s? I have 3 of the former all with cup-getters and 3 of the latter all with O-getters. 

Question 2 - Has anyone else had the "GEC" stickers start to peel off after limited use? Two of my A1834s are doing that (as seen in the picture). A bit sad to see the sticker go, but damn it they sound good...

Thanks in advance for any insights.


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> I have a couple of quick questions about the GEC 6AS7G. I added a CV2523 today to my collection. This one has an "O-getter", whereas the A1834 I've been listening to lately has a "Cup-getter" (or whatever the right term is for the solid getter with no opening in the middle as seen in the picture).
> 
> Question 1 - Is this a difference because of the manufacture date or a difference between the A1834 and CV2523s? I have 3 of the former all with cup-getters and 3 of the latter all with O-getters.
> 
> ...


Yes, cup getters indicate early tubes and halo getters indicate later tubes (generally around 1960 and after). CV2523 indicates that these were sold to the British military and A1834 indicates the domestic market.

And yes, the stickers tend to come loose, but you can probably re-glue them. While I haven't re-glued stickers (I simply use scotch tape lol) perhaps others can recommend a good glue for this purpose.


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> Yes, cup getters indicate early tubes and halo getters indicate later tubes (generally around 1960 and after). CV2523 indicates that these were sold to the British military and A1834 indicates the domestic market.
> 
> And yes, the stickers tend to come loose, but you can probably re-glue them. While I haven't re-glued stickers (I simply use scotch tape lol) perhaps others can recommend a good glue for this purpose.


A perfect answer from gibosi. One other thing to note (I suppose it’s obvious really) is that you can mix and match these tubes together with no sonic detriment, as they are the same tubes. Including straight and curved bases. I have one NIB one left, which is waiting for the arrival of a much modified Bottlehead Crack.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> Yes, cup getters indicate early tubes and halo getters indicate later tubes (generally around 1960 and after). CV2523 indicates that these were sold to the British military and A1834 indicates the domestic market.
> 
> And yes, the stickers tend to come loose, but you can probably re-glue them. While I haven't re-glued stickers (I simply use scotch tape lol) perhaps others can recommend a good glue for this purpose.



Thanks for the answer. So one could run into an A1834 with the O getter and so forth...

As for the sticker peeling. This is coming off in spots, as seen in the picture. As if the heat has made rigid, then it cracks in multiple pieces, then some pieces fall off. Only happening to these two tubes. My other GEC stickers are solid. I suppose it has something to do with how they were stored for 70 years and how that affected the sticker.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

JTbbb said:


> A perfect answer from gibosi. One other thing to note (I suppose it’s obvious really) is that you can mix and match these tubes together with no sonic detriment, as they are the same tubes. Including straight and curved bases. I have one NIB one left, which is waiting for the arrival of a much modified Bottlehead Crack.



Can't wait to see the picture and hear of the result!


----------



## Velozity

I didn't know there was a city named England in Russia!  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275151791498?hash=item401053258a:g:HSgAAOSw-jJh-zBn


----------



## bcowen

Velozity said:


> I didn't know there was a city named England in Russia!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275151791498?hash=item401053258a:g:HSgAAOSw-jJh-zBn


LOL!  I got some from the same city!


----------



## hmscott (Feb 3, 2022)

Should I be happy they are "Made in England"?  Both tubes have "New" readings, should I get them? - I still haven't found an RCA shoulder-glass 6AS7G with high enough measurements, this is the closest so far... but, I'd love to buy only one tube...


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> Should I be happy they are "Made in England"?  Both tubes have "New" readings, should I get them? - I still haven't found an RCA shoulder-glass 6AS7G with high enough measurements, this is the closest so far... but, I'd love to buy only one tube...



I'm not sure if you are joking? 

But these tubes were made in the USSR. You simply can't always believe the text and logos painted on vacuum tubes......


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 3, 2022)

hmscott said:


> Should I be happy they are "Made in England"?  Both tubes have "New" readings, should I get them? - I still haven't found an RCA shoulder-glass 6AS7G with high enough measurements, this is the closest so far... but, I'd love to buy only one tube...


These really, really, look like relabeled Svetlana tubes.  Svetlanas run about $15-$20 a tube via ebay.  I say seek out  Svetlana tubes and save a bundle.

Ex: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6-13...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


----------



## hmscott (Feb 3, 2022)

gibosi said:


> I'm not sure if you are joking?
> 
> But these tubes were made in the USSR. You simply can't always believe the text and logos painted on vacuum tubes......





Ripper2860 said:


> These really, really, look like relabeled Svetlana tubes.  Svetlanas run about $15-$20 a tube via ebay.  I say seek out a risk Svetlana tubes and save a bundle.
> 
> Ex: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N13S-6-13...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0


Yup, I've already got enough Russian 6AS7G's


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Yup, I've already got enough Russian 6AS7G's


@Ripper2860 is correct that those are Svetlanas.  Same as my Amperex labeled ones.  The UFO getter is the main giveaway.  Personally, I don't think they are bad sounding tubes at all, just not worth premium prices as they can still be sourced cheaply in their native dress.


----------



## Velozity

hmscott said:


> Should I be happy they are "Made in England"?  Both tubes have "New" readings, should I get them? - I still haven't found an RCA shoulder-glass 6AS7G with high enough measurements, this is the closest so far... but, I'd love to buy only one tube...




As @gibosi said, these are not made in England.  I posted that as joke for the veterans and a warning to unsuspecting buyers such as yourself, so mission accomplished .  If you are looking for authentic tubes it's best to check here first (as you have) because this thread has a brain-trust of tubephiles (new word) who can steer you in the right direction.  That said if you want RCA tubes specifically I have several matched pairs in various styles that are NOS, tested, and authentic.  I think I have some singles too.  Shoot me a pm if interested.


----------



## hmscott

Velozity said:


> As @gibosi said, these are not made in England.  I posted that as joke for the veterans and a warning to unsuspecting buyers such as yourself, so mission accomplished .  If you are looking for authentic tubes it's best to check here first (as you have) because this thread has a brain-trust of tubephiles (new word) who can steer you in the right direction.  That said if you want RCA tubes specifically I have several matched pairs in various styles that are NOS, tested, and authentic.  I think I have some singles too.  Shoot me a pm if interested.


Thank you! You are all an awesome group, and I do appreciate your insights! 

I did message the seller on eBay,  I explicitly asked if they were Svetlana tubes sourced from Russia and if not what are their build source, but he doesn't claim any knowledge beyond what is written on the box/tubes.  He did offer to drop the price by a few bucks.  I didn't bother to offer him "Svetlana money" 

I have seen a number of RCA Jan tubes, but none with measurements listed.  I'll keep looking


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Thank you! You are all an awesome group, and I do appreciate your insights!
> 
> *I did message the seller on eBay,  I explicitly asked if they were Svetlana tubes sourced from Russia and if not what are their build source, but he doesn't claim any knowledge beyond what is written on the box/tubes.  He did offer to drop the price by a few bucks.  I didn't bother to offer him "Svetlana money" *
> 
> I have seen a number of RCA Jan tubes, but none with measurements listed.  I'll keep looking


Good that you didn't go further on those.  3 warning signs with this seller:

1) Immediately offers a discount.  If willing to sell it for less, why not list it for less?
2) Pleads ignorance when questioned about a particular tube, yet has a long history of tube sales. Not that everyone selling tubes on Ebay is an expert or even knowledgeable, but if I were selling tubes and someone questioned what I was selling, I'd at least investigate it.  He's either just lazy, or knows better (which is what I suspect).
3) He claims to use a 'calibrated' Hickok 533 tester, and then provides minimum AND "100%" (assuming that means bogey or average NOS) values. Vintage testers (like the 533) provided either minimum OR NOS values, but not both.  The 533 actually lists a NOS value in the settings chart, so he could have only calculated a minimum value.

Worse, looking at another listing he has for a pair of 5692's:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275123292598?hash=item400ea049b6:g:SD8AAOSwUaJh53Oe

With those, he shows the data as:






If you look at a Hickok 533 settings chart for a 5692...

http://k5jxh.com/odds-ends/tube-tes...ok Model 533A-600A-605A Tube Testers V2.5.pdf

...you get this, where the 2600 shown is the bogey or average NOS value (note there is no "minimum" value provided):





So either he doesn't have a clue how to use his tester, or he's just making up numbers as he goes along. In any event, another seller to add to my blacklist.


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Thank you! You are all an awesome group, and I do appreciate your insights!
> 
> I did message the seller on eBay,  I explicitly asked if they were Svetlana tubes sourced from Russia and if not what are their build source, but he doesn't claim any knowledge beyond what is written on the box/tubes.  He did offer to drop the price by a few bucks.  I didn't bother to offer him "Svetlana money"
> 
> I have seen a number of RCA Jan tubes, but none with measurements listed.  I'll keep looking


I guess since I looked at the listing, I got an offer too.  ROFL!!!  I countered at $5 and noted that was a reasonable price for Svetlana 6N13S tubes currently.😂


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> So either he doesn't have a clue how to use his tester, or he's just making up numbers as he goes along. In any event, another seller to add to my blacklist.


Not everyone is a tube tester savant like you, Bill.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Not everyone is a tube tester savant like you, Bill.


I think that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.  Are you feeling OK?  🤣


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 4, 2022)

Well, I have been stuck in the house a few days now due to snowmageddon (Texas-style).  Perhaps I should check my carbon monoxide detectors' batteries.


----------



## hmscott

How about this one?

6AS7G RCA Headphone Amplifier Tube Made in U.S.A Amplitrex Tested #309008
https://www.ebay.com/itm/194795484634


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> How about this one?
> 
> 6AS7G RCA Headphone Amplifier Tube Made in U.S.A Amplitrex Tested #309008
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/194795484634


That's priced _*very*_ high for an RCA. 

Less money and you get 2 with solid test readings:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284462946775?hash=item423b5019d7:g:FKEAAOSw4qNhTMnp


----------



## hmscott (Feb 5, 2022)

bcowen said:


> That's priced _*very*_ high for an RCA.
> 
> Less money and you get 2 with solid test readings:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/284462946775?hash=item423b5019d7:g:FKEAAOSw4qNhTMnp


Thanks, but I've already blown my powder on that RCA tube (and a bunch of others!!), so I'll have to patiently wait till next month to try again.  Maybe there will be more / better choices next month, and I'll be that much more clued in to take advantage of the opportunities next time. 

As far as I could see all of the inexpensive RCA 6AS7G's were far from "new", and the only ones that might have been NIB instead of NOS (85% of new) were either in Pairs for 2x what I paid, or without measurements at the same $90.  There were plenty of "used" or undeclared Condition choices, but I really wanted to get as close to a 100% measuring tube as possible.

Inexpensive used/"not new" tubes are more affordable, but I've found - at least with 12xx7 type tubes - that NOS 85% Life remaining tubes HISS like crazy in my IEMs, starting with less than 95%.  So I try to get 100%+/100%+ tubes.

Please give me/us some guidance as to what to look for when they do publish measurement results, but don't provide all of the reference values I need to compare for making the purchase decision.  If you know of hidden gems out there at bargain prices... I just need "1". 

I saw that Sylvania pair, but why don't they list the normal "new/NIB" result as well as the "minimum" so we can tell where on the continuum of values this tube sits?  I care about the normal "New" value far more than the failure value.  Without both end points as references it isn't possible to know where the results fall in the range of Worn out, to Used, to New.

When I see those results they look to me as in the 82% range of life left, which would be lower than the one I posted, and not acceptable to me, so I passed right by them.

"Condition:--
2 NIB RCA 6AS7G Tubes,pair USA Sylvania branded manufacture--TV7 tested-test nil for shorts
TV7 tested : 36/36 is minimum
TEST         :  82/82 and 82/80"

When comparing the single TV7 measurement result against nothing but a minimum, without an existing reference to shoot for how are we supposed to judge the listed results?

I asked the guy with the RCA tube above and he said normal new was 5800 uMhos and this was the highest reading tube he had in inventory - I asked him the month before to find such a tube - and he followed through and contacted me, so I asked him to list it to purchase and he didn't jack up the price over the tubes with lower test results - so to me his follow through counted as much as the test results.  I should have asked more questions of him, but I was comparing the results listed on the dozens of 6AS7G's he had listed in his Store, and the one he found for me has mostly higher readings than the others listed.

What about the other measurement results from the A1000?, which test values do we weigh as higher in usefulness to consider when deciding which available tube to try?

What are the expected "new" value(s) for the RCA 6AS7G on the TV7?, and what values from the Amplitrex A1000 output should I be using to judge the value of the tube under test?

Thanks again for the helpful guidance. 

Update: Ah, so perhaps my "guesstimate" was close?  100 would be actually 100mA on the meter showing a 100% result, and so then 82mA would therefore be "82%"?
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-16212445
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-16212525

And, the Amplitrex printout also printed the mAdc "meter" readings:  105.6mAdc / 89.6mAdc if on the same 100mAdc = 100% scale that would be 105%/90%?, also among the highest of that value for the RCA 6AS7G tubes he has listed, so perhaps I overpaid, but I also got a "newish" tube?  In a more perfect field of available choices I would have liked to hold out for 100%+/100%+ instead of the uneven result.

So then how much does looking for the highest uMhos readings play in choosing?  As he said the uMhos value of 5800 is considered on the Amplitrex as "new".  And, what about the Mu value?, how much does that matter?  1.5Mu isn't the lowest, I've seen as low as 1.2, and as high as 1.7 to 2.0.

Shouldn't a new tube hit all the "numbers" in the highest ranges?  Do lower results in each section mean some particular correlation with use/age?  Or is that normal tube variation - so which results matter?  And, operator error / tester presets / or even calibration issues unique to each operator / tester give variance in the resulting value from testing/measuring session to session.

Checking the AT1000 manual, there is a provided "CDROM' with the TUBEDATAxxx.CSV file and tools to read/edit the data and upload it to the tester:
https://amplitrex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AT1000-Manual.pdf
https://amplitrex.com/included-software/

And, the same for the TV7 I assume, and I've seen little green data cards for each tube to push onto a Hickock(?) tester to make the settings.  I've used that data card showing through in other ebay listings before to "learn" the range of acceptable results for that particular tube.  Without that info it is also tough to decide what listed results really mean as far as the range of acceptable values.

Without access to that data proprietary to each tester, how are we to tell if the published/listed test results are what we think they are? 

Sorry for the long post, lots of items I am learning at the same time, and trying to fit them together.
Any tips/hints/links to set me on the right path?  How about an online copy of the Tube data / results tables for the AT1000/TV7?


----------



## bcowen (Feb 5, 2022)

hmscott said:


> Thanks, but I've already blown my powder on that RCA tube, so I'll have to patiently wait till next month to try again.  Please give me/us some guidance as to what to look for when they do publish measurement results, but don't provide all of the reference values I need to compare for making the purchase decision.
> 
> I saw that Sylvania pair, but why don't they list the normal "new/NIB" result as well as the "minimum" so we can tell where on the continuum of values this tube sits?  I care about the normal "New" value far more than the failure value.  Without both end points as references it isn't possible to know where the results fall in the range of Worn out, to Used, to New.
> 
> ...


Well, I'll take a stab at this, but may take more than one post.   

First, I can't speak to the Amplitrex as I have no experience with one, and don't really know what the 'Mu' value signifies. The vintage testers (Hickoks, Simpsons, Westons, B&K's, Knights, Sencores, etc etc) specify either a NOS value OR a minimum good value for the tube under test.  I've never seen one list _both_ for the same tester.  And even within the same manufacturer's lineup, some testers list NOS (Hickok 800A for example), or minimum good (Hickok 752 and TV-7, for example).  The general rule of thumb is that the minimum good value is around 60% of the NOS value. So if you have one data point you can calculate the other, but it may or may not be accurate depending on how the manufacturer arrived at the values. As such, any _calculated_ value used in a sales listing should be labeled as such as it is at best an educated guess.  My Hickok 752A lists minimum good values, but they vary from 61% - 64% of data sheet NOS depending on the tube.  Accurate as a hand grenade, right?  Remember that the bulk of these vintage testers including the much loved (_I-have-no-idea-why)_ TV-7 are not laboratory grade testers and were never intended to be. They were made for portability, easy on-site operation, and to provide useful information -- not ultimate accuracy.  Then you have to deal with the fact that some testers provide a GM number that actually matches up with tube data sheets, and some that just use arbitrary numbers (like the TV-7 and most B&K's).  Without knowing what the tester's published values are (and mean), any GM figure provided by a seller is worthless unless you go to the lengths to try and figure it out.  Ideally, a seller would list the make/model of tester they are using, _when it was last refurbished/calibrated**_, what the reference data number is and whether it's NOS or minimum good, and then the tube's reading(s) compared against that.

_** The bulk of the vintage testers are 50+ years of age at this point. Modern electrolytic capacitors have a normal service life of 25, maybe 30 years if kept within temperature specs. No telling what the service life of electrolytic caps was back in the '50's and '60's, but I think it's safe to assume it's probably less than modern caps. So if the capacitors have not been replaced (at a bare minimum) at this point, any readings obtained are pure garbage as the caps will either be way off spec or totally dead and the tester will *not* calibrate correctly (I've refurbished a couple dozen testers in the past 5 years and every single one has had at least one dead or way out of spec cap, and most had several). Sorry for the long aside, just an important piece of the puzzle if any faith is to be placed in the test data. _

As far as determining what the NOS value _should_ be, that is typically provided in the tube data sheets that can be found online pretty easily. The first one below is for an RCA 6AS7G, and the 2nd for a Tung Sol, both showing a transconductance (GM) value of 7000 which would be the "bogey" value:

http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/6as7g-1.pdf





https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6AS7G.pdf





So was the guy lying to you when he stated 5800 as the NOS value for that RCA?  Maybe, but probably not.  5800 is most likely the number that HIS tester showed as the NOS value for THAT tester.  Manufacturers arrived at their own values in many cases to correspond with the electrical workings of their particular tester.  Long and short of it is that you cannot easily (or even at all) compare the test numbers between two different manufacturers and/or models of tester, as their baseline data may be totally different.

Below is a good site that has lots of tester info and settings data. The first page lists the manufacturers, and drilling into those gets you to specific models. There are a number of other sources as well, this is just the most comprehensive and so the place I always go to first.:

http://bama.edebris.com/manuals

Not sure if this helps or just confuses things more, but fire back with any other questions or anything I glossed over.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 5, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Well, I'll take a stab at this, but may take more than one post.
> 
> First, I can't speak to the Amplitrex as I have no experience with one, and don't really know what the 'Mu' value signifies. The vintage testers (Hickoks, Simpsons, Westons, B&K's, Knights, Sencores, etc etc) specify either a NOS value OR a minimum good value for the tube under test.  I've never seen one list _both_ for the same tester.  And even within the same manufacturer's lineup, some testers list NOS (Hickok 800A for example), or minimum good (Hickok 752 and TV-7, for example).  The general rule of thumb is that the minimum good value is around 60% of the NOS value. So if you have one data point you can calculate the other, but it may or may not be accurate depending on how the manufacturer arrived at the values. As such, any _calculated_ value used in a sales listing should be labeled as such as it is at best an educated guess.  My Hickok 752A lists minimum good values, but they vary from 61% - 64% of data sheet NOS depending on the tube.  Accurate as a hand grenade, right?  Remember that the bulk of these vintage testers including the much loved (_I-have-no-idea-why)_ TV-7 are not laboratory grade testers and were never intended to be. They were made for portability, easy on-site operation, and to provide useful information -- not ultimate accuracy.  Then you have to deal with the fact that some testers provide a GM number that actually matches up with tube data sheets, and some that just use arbitrary numbers (like the TV-7 and most B&K's).  Without knowing what the tester's published values are (and mean), any GM figure provided by a seller is worthless unless you go to the lengths to try and figure it out.  Ideally, a seller would list the make/model of tester they are using, _when it was last refurbished/calibrated**_, what the reference data number is and whether it's NOS or minimum good, and then the tube's reading(s) compared against that.
> 
> ...


Yup, all very helpful thank you!, and I also think it will take more than a few back and forth posts over time to help get *me* aligned/calibrated.  

I think he's being honest, at least that's what most of his customers give as feedback.  And, after all those years on the job, he probably feels he understands what he is doing as well.  The Amplitrex is the same as used by other "big" tube suppliers as well, so I'm hoping his is calibrated and operating correctly.

"Your one-stop source for rare high quality new old stock vacuum tubes and valves. We have been in the vacuum tubes and valves Business Since 1970’s, and have approximately 3,00,000 Tubes in Stock."

I'll keep searching for NIB 6AS7G's, hopefully I can keep the cost down too.  And, I'd still like to know if that 6AS7G measurements are "good".  I'd like to test it myself, but  I don't have a tester, and the testers I had access to are now gone, so I'll work to find another tester.  The only way I'll know for sure is to test it myself...and know the setup parameters and tube data.

I'll read up and come back with more questions, and maybe some answers to my own questions...Thanks again.


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Yup, all very helpful thank you!, and I also think it will take more than a few back and forth posts over time to get *me* aligned/calibrated.
> 
> I think he's being honest, at least that's what most of his customers give as feedback.  And, after all those years on the job, he probably feels he understands what he is doing as well.  The Amplitrex is the same as used by other "big" tube suppliers as well, so I'm hoping his is calibrated and operating correctly.
> 
> ...


The Amplitrex is an extremely nice tester...I'd love to have one myself. I see he also has my favorite Hickok (752A) and an AVO...both very nice for vintage testers.  The Amplitrex will be more accurate and repeatable than either of those, and being a modern machine is probably easy to calibrate and will stay in calibration for a good period of time.

While I'm not familiar with the Amplitrex operation or data, I know the 752A like the back of my hand.  If he hasn't already shipped the tube, ask him to plug it into the 752A and see what readings he gets.  I can tell you quickly how it stacks up.  One thing I've found with the 6AS7G / 6080 / 7236 / 5998 family of tubes is that it is not unusual for them to test well above bogey NOS values.  This doesn't happen with other tubes, and I have no idea why this particular tube type does that, but I have several that test at 150% of bogey.  They sound great and operate just fine so I haven't really put much effort into finding the 'why,' just kind of accept it as 'is.'


----------



## hmscott (Feb 5, 2022)

bcowen said:


> The Amplitrex is an extremely nice tester...I'd love to have one myself. I see he also has my favorite Hickok (752A) and an AVO...both very nice for vintage testers.  The Amplitrex will be more accurate and repeatable than either of those, and being a modern machine is probably easy to calibrate and will stay in calibration for a good period of time.
> 
> While I'm not familiar with the Amplitrex operation or data, I know the 752A like the back of my hand.  If he hasn't already shipped the tube, ask him to plug it into the 752A and see what readings he gets.  I can tell you quickly how it stacks up.  One thing I've found with the 6AS7G / 6080 / 7236 / 5998 family of tubes is that it is not unusual for them to test well above bogey NOS values.  This doesn't happen with other tubes, and I have no idea why this particular tube type does that, but I have several that test at 150% of bogey.  They sound great and operate just fine so I haven't really put much effort into finding the 'why,' just kind of accept it as 'is.'


That is an interesting characteristic of the 6AS7G series, thanks for the insight 

I'll ask him to test, but while we've slept they've had their "daytime" in Mumbai, it is now 5:09pm their time, it might have already been shipped...yup:

Tracking details DHL tracking #XXXXXX Feb 5, 2022 4:18pm Shipment picked up MUMBAI (BOMBAY)

What 752A test results do you want in particular? Please let me know exactly what to ask of him to test and I'll ask him for those 752A results on the *#309005 6AS7G* for comparison, and then we can compare using that tubes characteristics on both testers.

Update: I've asked for the 752A's "usual test results of interest" for that #309005 for comparison, if it isn't too much bother for him.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 5, 2022)

@bcowen - I also picked up this 6AS7G variant tube for my TA-26:

NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185266501341


From OP#1 post in this thread: *7236 - medium gain - great bass, fast and dynamic. Almost SS sounding*
Some interesting comments about the 7236 characteristics: *Tung-Sol 7236. UP FOR GRABS? Worth the BUY? WA3+ Owner.*

I spotted the Cetron 7236 in *pauls994* ebay inventory while picking up this pair for my TA-20:
NOS NIB PHILIPS HOLLAND PINCHED WAIST D FOIL GETTER E180CC 7062 12AT7 E81CC

Having "2 mouths" to feed really is a tough job


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> That is an interesting characteristic of the 6AS7G series, thanks for the insight
> 
> I'll ask him to test, but while we've slept they've had their "daytime" in Mumbai, it is now 5:09pm their time, it might have already been shipped...yup:
> 
> ...


See if you can get the GM readings, either raw or multiplied.  All I need really to compare. The 752A uses a rotary multiplier switch to keep the meter needle in an appropriate range, and for the 6AS7G, it uses a 4x multiplier. So whatever the raw reading is on the meter you multiply by 4 to get the (supposed) actual GM number.  The minimum good number is 625 (raw).  Most of the NOS ones I have nearly peg the meter at 1500 (raw).  Now hold on just a minute I think I hear you saying.    625 x 4 = 2500 for minimum, and if that's 60% of NOS, then NOS should be ~1040 x 4 = 4160.  The data sheets show 7,000 as the average NOS value?!?  All true, but this is just one of the cases where the numbers (and settings) specified by Hickok don't line up with a tube data sheet.  The 6AS7 is tested at 7.5v on the heaters (versus their normal spec of 6.3v), and you push a "low plate" button to get the GM measurement. The regular GM button shoots 150v to the tube's plates, but the low plate button shoots only 68v.  If I hit the regular GM button on a 6AS7 (which I've done by mistake a time or two) it pegs and bounces the meter needle past max.  So higher heater voltage, less than half of the plate voltage, and this is why the numbers Hickok provides don't line up with a data sheet.  I have no idea exactly what's happening electrically here, and just trust that Hickok's engineers knew what they were doing.  

Anyway, if he has a 6AS7G that measures about the same on his Amplitrex as the one he just sent you, and we can get the Hickok readings for that tube it'll be a good indicator of how it stacks up overall.


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> @bcowen - I also picked up this 6AS7G variant tube for my TA-26:
> 
> NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/185266501341
> ...


Funny, that tube was just being mentioned in anther thread:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-384#post-16800480

I have a few of those. Very fast, dynamic, and clean, but also somewhat lean sounding and lacking warmth and bloom in the mids (in my amp).  I think it needs a warmer-balanced driver tube than what I've paired it with before, so I'll try a '40's gray glass RCA 6SN7 with it the next chance I get and see what happens.  The RCA is almost too warm and bloomy in the midrange in and of itself, but it may be a very synergistic partner for the Cetron.  I'd also love to hear the actual TungSol version of this which I don't have.  Cetron (Richardson Electronics) took over production of this tube when Tung Sol stopped, and to my knowledge used their equipment (and certainly their design) to make them.  Just always wondering if anything got lost in the transition....


----------



## hmscott (Feb 5, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Funny, that tube was just being mentioned in anther thread:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/page-384#post-16800480
> 
> I have a few of those. Very fast, dynamic, and clean, but also somewhat lean sounding and lacking warmth and bloom in the mids (in my amp).  I think it needs a warmer-balanced driver tube than what I've paired it with before, so I'll try a '40's gray glass RCA 6SN7 with it the next chance I get and see what happens.  The RCA is almost too warm and bloomy in the midrange in and of itself, but it may be a very synergistic partner for the Cetron.  I'd also love to hear the actual TungSol version of this which I don't have.  Cetron (Richardson Electronics) took over production of this tube when Tung Sol stopped, and to my knowledge used their equipment (and certainly their design) to make them.  Just always wondering if anything got lost in the transition....


Yup, the 7236 is an interesting tube variant for the 6AS7G - I'd also like to find a 5998 and WE421A, I've also added a few more 6SN7 type tubes to pair with the new 6AS7G's, more on those later in another thread.

pauls944 listing for the Cetron 7236 says "Last One", IDK if he has more in the "back storage" or not... also if you work with him, you might get a better price on a few tubes together in one order...


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## hmscott (Feb 5, 2022)

bcowen said:


> See if you can get the GM readings, either raw or multiplied.  All I need really to compare. The 752A uses a rotary multiplier switch to keep the meter needle in an appropriate range, and for the 6AS7G, it uses a 4x multiplier. So whatever the raw reading is on the meter you multiply by 4 to get the (supposed) actual GM number.  The minimum good number is 625 (raw).  Most of the NOS ones I have nearly peg the meter at 1500 (raw).  Now hold on just a minute I think I hear you saying.    625 x 4 = 2500 for minimum, and if that's 60% of NOS, then NOS should be ~1040 x 4 = 4160.  The data sheets show 7,000 as the average NOS value?!?  All true, but this is just one of the cases where the numbers (and settings) specified by Hickok don't line up with a tube data sheet.  The 6AS7 is tested at 7.5v on the heaters (versus their normal spec of 6.3v), and you push a "low plate" button to get the GM measurement. The regular GM button shoots 150v to the tube's plates, but the low plate button shoots only 68v.  If I hit the regular GM button on a 6AS7 (which I've done by mistake a time or two) it pegs and bounces the meter needle past max.  So higher heater voltage, less than half of the plate voltage, and this is why the numbers Hickok provides don't line up with a data sheet.  I have no idea exactly what's happening electrically here, and just trust that Hickok's engineers knew what they were doing.
> 
> Anyway, if he has a 6AS7G that measures about the same on his Amplitrex as the one he just sent you, and we can get the Hickok readings for that tube it'll be a good indicator of how it stacks up overall.


I sent him your specific requests, and low and behold, totempole_999 posted the Amplitrex test run of the current #309005 tube eBay listing, and it shows expected "Spec" values of the Amplitrex for the 6AS7!!:



I've noticed the "Plate Resistance *RP Ohms*" and "Tube Gain *Mu*" have no Spec reference value listed for those parameters...so IDK if RP Ohms of 0.3K being lower is better, and the same goes for the Mu of 1.5.  But, the "DC Plate Current* ip mAdc*" Spec of 100 vs 105.6/89.6 and "Mutual Conductance" of 5040/5020 suggests my tube is "New-ish".

I also noticed that "Right" channel (column of his Amplitrex seems to consistently indicates "Lower" as compared to the "Left" channel (column), I may ask him about that...at least for the results of interest to me.  Same on both tubes results.

And, I've asked totempole_999 for the Amplitrex run for my 6AS7G, #309008


----------



## Velozity

@hmscott , I told you to pm me, lol.  I could've sold you one, that reads above 100% on both triodes on my Jackson tester and for a lot less than $110.


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## hmscott (Feb 5, 2022)

Velozity said:


> As @gibosi said, these are not made in England.  I posted that as joke for the veterans and a warning to unsuspecting buyers such as yourself, so mission accomplished . If you are looking for authentic tubes it's best to check here first (as you have) because this thread has a brain-trust of tubephiles (new word) who can steer you in the right direction. *That said if you want RCA tubes specifically I have several matched pairs in various styles that are NOS, tested, and authentic.  I think I have some singles too.  Shoot me a pm if interested.*


Well, look at this, I totally missed your offer, sigh, so close and yet so far 

I would have still purchased the RCA 6AS7G from totempole_999 as I asked him to find one for me that measured better than he had already listed last month, he said he would, and when he got back to me it looked much better, so here I am.


Velozity said:


> @hmscott , I told you to pm me, lol.  I could've sold you one, that reads above 100% on both triodes on my Jackson tester and for a lot less than $110.


Thank you!, I'll need to wait till March now, but that will give me some time to get used to the "not 100%" tube, and then I can hear the stiff new 100%+/100+ tube stand out.

I was looking for a '50's RCA JAN tube, but more important is the 100%+/100+, If you want to get rid of a couple different types, I would consider that too, the 2nd one doesn't need to be RCA either.  I don't need a pair, but single variations where I might hear a difference are welcome.
That's awfully nice to offer, I'll PM you for the rest


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## hmscott (Feb 6, 2022)

Guys, I just received a message from the seller reminding about this item, so now I need to follow through as promised.

The good news is he has a "Make Offer" button on the listing, I don't think the price is too much, but what do you guys think?

*How much should I offer him?

Jan RCA 6AS7G Military Audio Radio Vintage Tube NOS 1950s" *_*Price: *_*US $89.99*
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275069376271

I am a bit concerned whether the tube is functional, and how good it is, since he doesn't have any measurements or tests done on it.  I responded asking him to test the 2 tubes he has and let me know.  It is supposed to be a NIB item, but I prefer buying a known quantity rather than plugging in an "unknown" into my only TA-26 Headphone Amplifier.

What do you all think I should offer?

*Update:* The interface said he would accept $67.49 (25% off), so that is what I offered. 

*Update*: The seller responded to my request to test the tubes to make sure the one he send works and is the highest "Lifetime" / "Good" reading of the two he has, and here is his response:

"_..._*All i have is a regular emissions type tester for these bigger tubes. It will only test good or bad on it.. I can test them to make sure everything is ok, and send you the higher testing one*_.. Also, I can change the return policy on the listing.. Just incase there's an issue..."_

I replied that I accept those terms and conditions and appreciated his effort and help to make sure the tubes work.  I wonder why he hadn't tested them before listing them?  I also said that if he accepts my requests please accept my offer, and if both tubes don't pass the testing he can cancel the transaction from his end.  That is so great, now I am that much closer to getting a tested 50's RCA JAN 6AS7G I've hoped to find. 

*Update*: The seller accepted my offer of $67.49 and the total with shipping and taxes is: Total: $78.98


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## hmscott (Feb 6, 2022)

bcowen said:


> I guess since I looked at the listing, I got an offer too.  ROFL!!!  I countered at $5 and noted that was a reasonable price for Svetlana 6N13S tubes currently.😂


Did you get an offer update too?  He's dropped down to:

Tube Pair 6as7g NOS Made In England
Previous price was C $200.00
*Seller's Offer C $120.00 (C $80.00 off) (Approx. $93.94)

Those are nice looking Boxes, maybe with a brief message to the seller someone else here can get them for close to "Svetlana" money? *


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Did you get an offer update too?  He's dropped down to:
> 
> Tube Pair 6as7g NOS Made In England
> Previous price was C $200.00
> ...


Yeah, for some reason he rejected my offer?!?!?  Oh well.  Since I already have a pair of "Made in England" Svetlana's with Amperex labeling, I'll probably survive.


----------



## Velozity

While looking through my stash to find the RCA tubes I found these that I forgot I had.  Branded GE, likely made by RCA but have copper grid posts like a Chatham.


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## bcowen (Feb 6, 2022)

Velozity said:


> While looking through my stash to find the RCA tubes I found these that I forgot I had.  Branded GE, likely made by RCA but have copper grid posts like a Chatham.


None of the Chathams I've seen have the bottom shield pieces.  But on the plus side, they *are* most probably RCA's and *not* GE's.


----------



## bcowen

These are _extremely_ rare.  I am *not* vouching for the seller OR the tube itself, just posting in case anyone is interested. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203823301668?hash=item2f74d0c424:g:CwsAAOSwWyph~rbV

Since we've just been talking about tester readings and such, the seller states readings of 92/90 on a Hickok 539C but with no minimum or bogey value to compare to. Unfortunately, the 539C does not give a GM value for these tubes (or 6080's) as you can't do a mutual conductance test on them, only emission. The mark on the meter for diodes and rectifiers is at about 53 - below that would be "bad" and above that would be "good." So it appears this tube has good and strong emission.  Some would argue that an emission test is actually a better measurement for power tubes, as most vintage testers don't apply a high enough plate voltage to them to make a transconductance measurement very meaningful. No desire to start a debate on that here, just that I won't argue an emission-only test on a power tube is a worthwhile measurement to use.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 7, 2022)

bcowen said:


> These are _extremely_ rare.  I am *not* vouching for the seller OR the tube itself, just posting in case anyone is interested.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/203823301668?hash=item2f74d0c424:g:CwsAAOSwWyph~rbV
> 
> Since we've just been talking about tester readings and such, the seller states readings of 92/90 on a Hickok 539C but with no minimum or bogey value to compare to. Unfortunately, the 539C does not give a GM value for these tubes (or 6080's) as you can't do a mutual conductance test on them, only emission. The mark on the meter for diodes and rectifiers is at about 53 - below that would be "bad" and above that would be "good." So it appears this tube has good and strong emission.  Some would argue that an emission test is actually a better measurement for power tubes, as most vintage testers don't apply a high enough plate voltage to them to make a transconductance measurement very meaningful. No desire to start a debate on that here, just that I won't argue an emission-only test on a power tube is a worthwhile measurement to use.


Thank you for posting such timely info, as the *JAN RCA 6AS7G seller* responded with this when I asked to please test both of his tubes:...

"_..._*All i have is a regular emissions type tester for these bigger tubes. It will only test good or bad on it.. I can test them to make sure everything is ok, and send you the higher testing one*_.. Also, I can change the return policy on the listing.. Just incase there's an issue..."_

...and make sure the one he sends me works and has the highest reading.  I should also ask for the tester model and the numbers reading on his meter too, anything else I should ask of him?  I'll ask what his tester uses as the pass value, and attach those images to my eBay reply.

As for the Tung-Sol 6520, would it require verifying an increase in bias load or other design considerations before plugging it in the 6AS7G spot in an amplifier?

*6520 - premium 6SA7G, sometimes with 5998 plates*

From *Xduoo's response* to my question asking what tubes they've tested, Xduoo haven't explored the top end of 6AS7G tubes on the Xduoo TA-26, so this is unexplored territory - it would be nice to know what parameter changes this Tung-Sol 6520 would require on the amp over the normal operating specification range of a 6AS7G.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 7, 2022)

Velozity said:


> While looking through my stash to find the RCA tubes I found these that I forgot I had.  Branded GE, likely made by RCA but have copper grid posts like a Chatham.


Those are some nice clean tubes @Velozity 

My question is, which make/model/year/(?) do you enjoy listening with the most for the 6AS7G, and do any of the variants improve the sound for you, like the 5998, 7236, or? ?  And, what about your favorite 6SN7 (?) that compliments your favorite 6AS7G?


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Thank you for posting such timely info, as the *JAN RCA 6AS7G seller* responded with this when I asked to please test both of his tubes and make sure the one he sends me works and has the highest reading.  I should also ask for the tester model and the numbers reading on his meter too, *anything else I should ask of him?*  I'll ask what his tester uses as the pass value, and attach those images to my eBay reply.


No, just find out what tester he's using and if possible find out what his data chart shows for the emission. Even if it just has "good/bad" areas on the meter it should also have numerical values.

This picture doesn't inspire confidence.  Don't know what that brown is -- I've never seen anything like that in a tube. Should be silver. If the vacuum was bad or gone, it would be a chalky white color.  But brown?  








hmscott said:


> "_..._*All i have is a regular emissions type tester for these bigger tubes. It will only test good or bad on it.. I can test them to make sure everything is ok, and send you the higher testing one*_.. Also, I can change the return policy on the listing.. Just incase there's an issue..."_
> 
> As for the Tung-Sol 6520, would it require verifying an increase in bias load or other design considerations before plugging it in the 6AS7G spot in an amplifier?
> 
> ...


The 6520 was just a premium version of the 6AS7G.  Not exactly sure what differences made it "premium," but those that have them speak highly of them...and covet them.  It's a direct drop-in substitute for a 6AS7G, so should work just fine in any amp designed for the 6AS7.

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6520.pdf
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6AS7G.pdf


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## Ripper2860 (Feb 6, 2022)

I saw the brown flashing and it did cause me concern but thought it might be reflection from the brown tabletop, etc.  Unfortunately, it may not be as simple as that.  

(Excerpt from Wikipedia)



> Those familiar with such devices can often make qualitative assessments as to the hardness or quality of the vacuum within by the appearance of the flash getter deposit, with a shiny deposit indicating a good vacuum. As the getter is used up, the deposit often becomes thin and translucent, particularly at the edges. *It can take on a brownish-red semi-translucent appearance, which indicates poor seals or extensive use of the device at elevated temperatures.* A white deposit, usually barium oxide, indicates total failure of the seal on the vacuum system, as shown in the fluorescent display module depicted above.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getter

A proper visual inspection once received by the buyer should tell if it is in fact brown flashing or a reflection.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I saw the brown flashing and it did cause me concern but thought it might be reflection from the brown tabletop, etc.  Unfortunately, it may not be as simple as that.
> 
> (Excerpt from Wikipedia)
> 
> ...


Good info!!  Taking a closer look at the photos, the grid wiring looks mangled....that wire must be perfectly and evenly spaced.  Perhaps the brown is due to elevated temps or overcurrent and this is the result?  I don't know...I have not seen this before either.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 7, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> I saw the brown flashing and it did cause me concern but thought it might be reflection from the brown tabletop, etc.  Unfortunately, it may not be as simple as that.
> (Excerpt from Wikipedia)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getter
> A proper visual inspection once received by the buyer should tell if it is in fact brown flashing or a reflection.





bcowen said:


> Good info!!  Taking a closer look at the photos, the grid wiring looks mangled....that wire must be perfectly and evenly spaced.  Perhaps the brown is due to elevated temps or overcurrent and this is the result?  I don't know...I have not seen this before either.


It looks like nothing to worry about, as Brand New Tubes deboxed out of a sealed crate from the factory show varying levels of those brown flashings - telltale signs of different rates of getter excitation during manufacturing - rushing things during the WWII push for materials?  Some were apparently quite rushed or overdone - large Brown Deposits on Glass, but the tubes are as minted New, and work perfectly.

*brown-black getter flashing does not mean ‘Used’!*
https://tubesound.com/brown-or-black-getter-flashing-does-not-mean-used/

"Discolored getter flashing (brown or black marks) does not mean that a tube was used. This fiction is believed by both uninformed buyers and seasoned tube jockeys. This myth seems credible because some new tubes have perfect shiny mirror getter flashing; therefore the assumption is that brown or black stains in the getter flashing must indicate a used tube. The myth says that the more brown/black discoloration, the “more used” the tube is. Wrong.

The purpose of the tube getter and flashing is to remove gas inside the tube envelope during manufacture. This discoloration myth can be quickly debunked by reading the article in _Electronics_ magazine, October 1950, entitled “Getter Materials For Electron Tubes”. The article explains that if the getter is vaporized very slowly during the manufacturing process, “the first barium atoms evaporated will absorb the gas present so that the remaining getter is deposited in a very high vacuum, exhibiting a shiny mirror.” If the getter was flashed very rapidly during manufacturing, then “the getter mirror will be discolored due to the dispersion of the barium.” The article then explains that the discoloration “does not mean that the getter is contaminated, but merely that the deposit is finely divided and therefore absorbs light.”

*Several photos of NOS tubes below demonstrate this myth.  Likewise, I provide photos to demonstrate how the flashing looks when a tube is actually used. Let us proceed… Examples of Perfect NOS tubes that have Brown/Black getter flashing marks: <-- Lots of Photos at* https://tubesound.com/brown-or-black-getter-flashing-does-not-mean-used/

When you get there => Click on each photo below to enlarge.  <== Please see the URL above and open photo's in another Tab to magnify as needed

"My first example is from a case of 100 mint NOS NIB NEW Philips 12AX7WA US Military surplus audio tubes. Highest quality inventory, and my personal preference in my own McIntosh amps. This case was factory sealed until opened by me to sell the inventory....""

*This discoloration myth can be quickly debunked by reading the article in Electronics magazine, October 1950, entitled “Getter Materials For Electron Tubes”.
Excerpt from Electronics Magazine:*





Technical Books Online - has Tube sections
http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm

Vacuum Tube Theory and Circuit Design
http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm#Vacuum Tube theory & circuit design

Getter Materials
http://www.tubebooks.org/file_downloads/Getter_Material.pdf

More... site:www.tubebooks.org getter+glass

Now, if the deposits on the Glass are White, as quoted above by @Ripper2860 it is  barium oxide :

Two NOS 5Y3 tubes. The tube on the right has lost vacuum, and shows milky white flashing.




Lastly, those mangled wires look "fine" to me from other angles, but even in those angles the "rippling" artifacts in the tube glass angled view, along with the harsh flash light reflections distorting the image, plus the low res photo upscaled for the close examination are the cause of the apparent gaps in the wires.  I also saw envelope glass distorat views of internal components when viewed through the imperfect glass. when I looked closely at my *Mullard 8162 '58's*"

"For sale is a ULTRA RARE Matched Quad NOS/NIB GEC/Mullard B309/M8162/CV4024/12AT7WA/ECC81 tubes with O-getter *and wrinkled glass*. These are *rare copper post and wrinkled glass tubes* specific to the early Mitcham productions.  Made in England in Mitcham military factory, 1958 for GEC and carry B309 number. Test very strong at NEW level."

Irregularities in the Glass envelope, "wrinkles", obscure the view integrity.  His photo's were much higher resolution and done with sharper controlled lighting, probably done without a "built-in flash", there aren't fine wires in that tube, but there are surface textures and edges that are obscured.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-14AAOSwjWRe8lvV/s-l1600.jpg


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> It looks like nothing to worry about, as Brand New Tubes deboxed out of a sealed crate from the factory show varying levels of those brown flashings - telltale signs of different rates of getter excitation during manufacturing - rushing things during the WWII push for materials?  Some were apparently quite rushed or overdone - large Brown Deposits on Glass, but the tubes are as minted New, and work perfectly.
> 
> *brown-black getter flashing does not mean ‘Used’!*
> https://tubesound.com/brown-or-black-getter-flashing-does-not-mean-used/
> ...


Well, hopefully the tube is good and works great when you get it.  Since you've got all this, let us know how it works out.


----------



## maxpudding

I had one newly bought TS 7236 that went white, there was a “smell” and very low hissing noise coming from the tube.

And then I also have still in my possession a crooked? 6AS7 that I bought from Japan. It was tested within the specs but the seller never tested for the sound because he claimed there was no “suitable equipment” to test it. Pulled the trigger anyways and now I have a badly sound 6AS7 that was tested “good” ROFLMAO. Well, lesson learnt.


----------



## JTbbb

Some strange NIB 421A’s just come up on American eBay. They are 5998’s me thinks.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 7, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Some strange NIB 421A’s just come up on American eBay. They are 5998’s me thinks.


A pair of Westinghouse 421As, way overpriced at $700/pair, but it is a liquidation sale from an estate, and unlikely to get them tested, but possible.  It's gonna be risky - with no returns, but if they really are NIB/New tubes, those are pretty rare 

"NOS NIB Pair Western Electric 421A Vacuum Tube #56.
*We are selling the lifetime collection of an important audiophile collector in Virginia.*

All pieces are in excellent condition unless noted.
ALL PIECES HAVE BEEN INTERNALLY CATALOGUED FOR AUTHENTICITY AND SECURITY IN OUR DATABASE
*NO RETURNS ACCEPTED FOR BULBS THAT ARE OUTSIDE OF OUR CATALOGUE.*

WE COMBINE SHIP
*And we accept best offers*_"_

*NOS NIB Pair Western Electric 421A Vacuum Tube #56*
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255374646705

If I hadn't burnt through my tube allocation for the month already; if I saw these first, I'd definately work on getting these!

I've been asking dealers for 421A's  whenever I get a chance, and looking for these, what a nice score if it works out, at much lower price!

They say they accept offers, I'd offer just under what Sold 421s have gone for recently, and hopefully they'd accept the offer:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...421A&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1&_sop=15

Please keep us in the loop if you go after these.

Update: I found this thread very interesting: Visual evidence Tung-Sol 5998 = Western Electric 421


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> No, just find out what tester he's using and if possible find out what his data chart shows for the emission. Even if it just has "good/bad" areas on the meter it should also have numerical values.
> 
> This picture doesn't inspire confidence.  Don't know what that brown is -- I've never seen anything like that in a tube. Should be silver. If the vacuum was bad or gone, it would be a chalky white color.  But brown?


I think something came along and just scared that little o’l tube 😀


----------



## hmscott (Feb 7, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Well, hopefully the tube is good and works great when you get it.  *Since you've got all this*, let us know how it works out.


Not at all, that is why I ask questions, and do research to find out more.

There are lots of unknowns, both known unknowns, and unknown unknowns. 


maxpudding said:


> I had one newly bought TS 7236 that went white, there was a “smell” and very low hissing noise coming from the tube.
> 
> And then I also have still in my possession a crooked? 6AS7 that I bought from Japan. It was tested within the specs but the seller never tested for the sound because he claimed there was no “suitable equipment” to test it. Pulled the trigger anyways and now I have a badly sound 6AS7 that was tested “good” ROFLMAO. Well, lesson learnt.


That sucks, sorry to hear you got stuck with a dud sounding tube.  How does the sound differ from other 6AS7G's you have listened to on your amp?  Do other samples of that same make/model/year sound good?  What was the failed tube make/model/year?

Buying 70+ year old tubes is risky even if the tube tester results are great and it sound great too.  Shipping such an old tube - bouncing around during shipping and handing - could easily induce physical stress that would cause the tube to fail.  Handling the tube and plugging it in could stress the base and glass causing a physical failure.

I can imagine any of those stressses could cause a tube to lose vacuum and fail under use.
Sorry to hear you had that happen to you, thanks for sharing your experience.


----------



## jonathan c

JTbbb said:


> I think something came along and just scared the s##t out of that little o’l tube 😀


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Some strange NIB 421A’s just come up on American eBay. They are 5998’s me thinks.


Yup, I think you're right.  The WE 421A's had only bottom getters.  While I believe 5998's were produced with bottom getters as well as top getters depending on when they were made, WE's did not.  Secondly, the base printing doesn't look genuine. In 1956 the date code format was changed from 3 digits to 4 digits, first two digits the year, and the second two for the week.  So the 813 on this one cannot be 1958 or later, it would have to be 1948 or earlier.  My WE's that are dated 1961 have stamped (etched) bases. If WE had ceased stamping the bases at some point, it would have to have been sometime in 1961 or after, yet the ones in the listing have to be 1948 or earlier if that code date is genuine (which it probably isn't).  Nor do I think WE would have let those out of their plant with the silkscreening crooked like that, as WE's were the hallmark of quality in their day. 

Not that the 5998 isn't a great tube (one of my most favorites, actually), just that these do not appear to be WE 421A's.

One of mine below showing the stamped (etched) base marking of the 13th week of 1961, and the correct bottom getter.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 7, 2022)

maxpudding said:


> I had one newly bought TS 7236 that went white, there was a “smell” and very low hissing noise coming from the tube.


Was there any warning before the TS 7236 popped?  How long did it take to go bad?  Did you replace it with another 7236?

The Tung Sol CETRON 7236 I bought off of eBay from pauls994 arrived this morning,  I plugged it in to my TA-26, and it sounds great so far; paired with a Sylvania Tall Boy Chrome Top 6SN7GTA VT-231

NOS VINTAGE TUNG SOL CETRON 7236 5998 TUBE WOO HEADAMPS PAIRS AVAILABLE
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185266501341


----------



## hmscott (Feb 7, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Yup, I think you're right.  The WE 421A's had only bottom getters.  While I believe 5998's were produced with bottom getters as well as top getters depending on when they were made, WE's did not.  Secondly, the base printing doesn't look genuine. In 1956 the date code format was changed from 3 digits to 4 digits, first two digits the year, and the second two for the week.  So the 813 on this one cannot be 1958 or later, it would have to be 1948 or earlier.  My WE's that are dated 1961 have stamped (etched) bases. If WE had ceased stamping the bases at some point, it would have to have been sometime in 1961 or after, yet the ones in the listing have to be 1948 or earlier if that code date is genuine (which it probably isn't).  Nor do I think WE would have let those out of their plant with the silkscreening crooked like that, as WE's were the hallmark of quality in their day.
> 
> Not that the 5998 isn't a great tube (one of my most favorites, actually), just that these do not appear to be WE 421A's.
> 
> One of mine below showing the stamped (etched) base marking of the 13th week of 1961, and the correct bottom getter.


Thank you for posting the WE Date Code chart pdf, very interesting.

Visual evidence Tung-Sol 5998 = Western Electric 421
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vis...998-western-electric-421.506133/#post-6837052

Which should I pursue?

BTW, that pair of WE 421A's was offered to me for $500 via eBay message a little while ago (I put it in my cart), still way too expensive, but I'd imagine an offer of $325 might be met with a counter of $350, if someone wants the pair.


----------



## gibosi (Feb 7, 2022)

hmscott said:


> Thank you for posting the WE Date Code chart pdf, very interesting.
> 
> Visual evidence Tung-Sol 5998 = Western Electric 421
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vis...998-western-electric-421.506133/#post-6837052
> ...



And there is another line of thinking regarding the 5998 and 421. WE applied for and obtained the 5998 special designation for the 421 and early 421's often had the 5998 designation painted on the base. And long after Chatham / Tung Sol ceased operation, WE continued to sell the 421. So it does appear that WE made the 421.

That said, it is possible that Chatham / Tung-Sol had an arrangement with WE to purchase the guts of the 421 and install them into one of their bottles. And this would explain the small differences seen in these tubes. It is thought that the demand for the WE-made 421/5998 was more than WE could supply on it's own so Chatham / TS helped to fill in the gap. Anyway, just a thought. Unfortunately it is likely that no one alive today knows for sure.


----------



## maxpudding

hmscott said:


> Was there any warning before the TS 7236 popped?  How long did it take to go bad?  Did you replace it with another 7236?
> 
> The Tung Sol CETRON 7236 I bought off of eBay from pauls994 arrived this morning,  I plugged it in to my TA-26, and it sounds great so far; paired with a Sylvania Tall Boy Chrome Top 6SN7GTA VT-231
> 
> ...



Nope no warning. That was the first time (and, the last time) I plugged it in. I was trying to heat it up before plugging my headphone in the amp, making sure everything was ok. But less than 5 minutes after plugging it in, there was a smell and some hissing noise, and I could see the tube turning white slowly. I wish I had my phone with me so I could record that lol

I bought that tube from a seller on etsy, fortunately he replaced it immediately. 7236 tubes indeed sound great, that’s why I go to great lengths to secure them. There was a Taiwanese seller that sold a bunch of them, shipping was quite expensive but totally worth it. Between the Cetron, Tung Sol and Sylvania 7236, my favourite would be the Tung Sol. But, in my opinion there is no large difference between Cetron and TS 7236, so you will be happy with either of them.


----------



## HPAholic

Western Electric initially sent a formal request in 1950 to the RTMA *(Radio-Television Manufacturers Association)* for a special purpose code to be assigned to the 421a, that code assigned by the RTMA was 5998. The 421a began it's use in 1948 prior to the request, 421a was before the 5998, and it still continued after the 5998.  Western Electric Pre-60's will have the grey plate and the Post-60's will have the black plate.  That's one of the oldest Western Electric 421a I have seen, if it's legit within the listing.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 9, 2022)

gibosi said:


> And there is another line of thinking regarding the 5998 and 421. WE applied for and obtained the 5998 special designation for the 421 and early 421's often had the 5998 designation painted on the base. And long after Chatham / Tung Sol ceased operation, WE continued to sell the 421. So it does appear that WE made the 421.
> 
> That said, it is possible that Chatham / Tung-Sol had an arrangement with WE to purchase the guts of the 421 and install them into one of their bottles. And this would explain the small differences seen in these tubes. It is thought that the demand for the WE-made 421/5998 was more than WE could supply on it's own so Chatham / TS helped to fill in the gap. Anyway, just a thought. Unfortunately it is likely that no one alive today knows for sure.





HPAholic said:


> Western Electric initially sent a formal request in 1950 to the RTMA *(Radio-Television Manufacturers Association)* for a special purpose code to be assigned to the 421a, that code assigned by the RTMA was 5998. The 421a began it's use in 1948 prior to the request, 421a was before the 5998, and it still continued after the 5998.  Western Electric Pre-60's will have the grey plate and the Post-60's will have the black plate.  *That's one of the oldest Western Electric 421a I have seen, if it's legit within the listing*


Both very interesting and helpful historical perspectives.   The earliest 421a preceeds the 5998 designation. And, I've also seen the dual designation labeling in the wild.

NOS NIB Pair Western Electric 421A Vacuum Tube #57 - $700, $500 Offer to me...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255374770295

I'll get the one I can afford at the time, but I'm looking for sound, not so much rarity or collectability, but I might as well know what I am getting to appraise the tube appropriately.

The owner of the tubes knew the differences, enough to collect both.  And there are a bunch of 5998's listed, the most expensive being the "Domino" variants - there are 2 listed for $600:

Pair of Tung-Sol Jan 5998 Domino vintage tubes Excellent #61 - $600
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255374814402

I'll look up "Domino", what what do you guys know about that variant?

This one is newly listed with the highest lot number so far, so they haven't appraised/listed all of the great tubes from his collection:

Pair of Tung-Sol Jan 5998 Domino vintage tubes Excellent #101
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255375263661

Maybe there will be some left by the time I can participate again in March, hopefully.


----------



## Monsterzero

hmscott said:


> the most expensive being the "Domino" variants


AFAIK the only real 5998s and 421a all have the domino plates. No dominos = misleading auction.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 8, 2022)

maxpudding said:


> Nope no warning. That was the first time (and, the last time) I plugged it in. I was trying to heat it up before plugging my headphone in the amp, making sure everything was ok. But less than 5 minutes after plugging it in, there was a smell and some hissing noise, and I could see the tube turning white slowly. I wish I had my phone with me so I could record that lol
> 
> I bought that tube from a seller on etsy, fortunately he replaced it immediately. 7236 tubes indeed sound great, that’s why I go to great lengths to secure them. There was a Taiwanese seller that sold a bunch of them, shipping was quite expensive but totally worth it. Between the Cetron, Tung Sol and Sylvania 7236, my favourite would be the Tung Sol. But, in my opinion there is no large difference between Cetron and TS 7236, so you will be happy with either of them.


That must have been quite a surprise when it happend 

It sounds like it was just another tube in a case/bunch, with no outward appearance of failure - it might even test ok, with low plate voltage during testing, and not show it's failure until something approaching full running power was applied.  Fortunately you had a good seller that had enough integrity and inventory to get you another one.

It would seem a potential eventuallity when playing with old hardware, the age/odds eventually catch up with a tube.  Part of the "cost" of doing business. 

Thank you for the insights, and I'll look for a labeled Tung Sol era 7236 next time 

BTW, being new again in this (last time was in the late 70's), what are you experiencing as far as "lifetime" runtime for the 7236's?  How many should I "stock up"?


----------



## hmscott (Feb 8, 2022)

Monsterzero said:


> AFAIK the only real 5998s and 421a all have the domino plates. No dominos = misleading auction.


That is interesting, then what would you designate the non-Domino 5998/421a tubes as, what would be a more valid name/label?  "Non-Domino"?

How can I identify Domino plates?  Color, grey/black? Finish, matte/shiny?  Holes, texture differences?

His collection had most 5998's labeled as "Domino Vintage", so a bunch of photo's of "Domino Plate" 5998's to help identify them in the future, I'll download some of the photo's for later.

Is there a name for the "non-Domino" 421a/5998 tubes?  Were there both manufactured at the same time, a cheaper variant?  Were the original 421a's that preceeded the 5998 Designation also "Domino" plates?

Thank you, I had no idea I should look for that if I want an actual 421a/5998 tube.


----------



## exchez

hmscott said:


> That is interesting, then what would you designate the non-Domino 5998/421a tubes as, what would be a more valid name/label?  "Non-Domino"?
> 
> How can I identify Domino plates?  Color, grey/black? Finish, matte/shiny?  Holes, texture differences?
> 
> ...


Domino is an informal term to describe the two parallel columns of indentations on the plate. No other 6AS7G variant has them except the 421a/5998/2399 so it's an easy visual check that you're not getting a run of the mill RCA 6AS7G or Russian forgery (although the Russian variants can be quite good sounding for the money). Personally, I would not pay a premium for the 421a over the 5998 or 2399.

The 5998 was produced up into the 70s and all vintages sound great. No need to pay a premium for a specific datecode or getter type, imo.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 10, 2022)

exchez said:


> Domino is an informal term to describe the two parallel columns of indentations on the plate. No other 6AS7G variant has them except the 421a/5998/2399 so it's an easy visual check that you're not getting a run of the mill RCA 6AS7G or Russian forgery (although the Russian variants can be quite good sounding for the money). Personally, I would not pay a premium for the 421a over the 5998 or 2399.
> 
> The 5998 was produced up into the 70s and all vintages sound great. No need to pay a premium for a specific datecode or getter type, imo.


That's great to know, and I can see the "Domino" likeness in the Grey plates. There are inexpensive enough "new" 421a/5998 tubes - including "Domino Plates" - I've seen Sold/Listed so far, good to know the affordable listings are as nice sounding.

I hadn't heard of the 2399 variant before, I'll look it up.
Thank you!, very helpful, you may have saved me/others a lot of money.


----------



## ostewart

I know the RCA 6080 are not high on peoples list around here, but they are the only "cheap" 6080/6AS7G tubes I've found, hopefully still a little better than the 6N5P tube that came in the Xduoo TA-26


----------



## maxpudding

hmscott said:


> That must have been quite a surprise when it happend
> 
> It sounds like it was just another tube in a case/bunch, with no outward appearance of failure - it might even test ok, with low plate voltage during testing, and not show it's failure until something approaching full running power was applied.  Fortunately you had a good seller that had enough integrity and inventory to get you another one.
> 
> ...



No problem 😉 

Actually I am relatively new in this “tube scene” as well, no idea on what to expect regarding their lifetimes…I have about 10 of them and I think I am good for now.


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> I hadn't heard of the 2399 variant before, I'll look it up.



"2399" isn't a variant. It's just an ordinary 5998. Actually, "2399" is the last four digits of IBM's internal inventory number for the 5998. When a customer purchased as many of these as IBM did, printing their inventory number of the tube was a small thing to do to keep a customer happy.


----------



## JTbbb

HPAholic said:


> That's one of the oldest Western Electric 421a I have seen, if it's legit within the listing.


But would it have a chrome dome?


----------



## JBOOGIE86

Can anyone with experience give me insight on these?


----------



## bcowen

JBOOGIE86 said:


> Can anyone with experience give me insight on these?


From what I can see in the pictures, they appear to be the real deal.  Bottom getter, domino plates, micas look right, base printing looks legit. One made in 1978 and one in 1979.


----------



## fuzzroffe

This sounds sooo amazingly good. I’m glad I got two of them, they should last me for years and years


----------



## bcowen

fuzzroffe said:


> This sounds sooo amazingly good. I’m glad I got two of them, they should last me for years and years


Nice!  To date, that's my favorite 6AS7G.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ditto.


----------



## fuzzroffe

bcowen said:


> Nice!  To date, that's my favorite 6AS7G.


Definitely, this is my number one, with the Sylvania 7236 next.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> This picture doesn't inspire confidence.  Don't know what that brown is -- I've never seen anything like that in a tube. Should be silver. If the vacuum was bad or gone, it would be a chalky white color.  But brown?





Ripper2860 said:


> I saw the brown flashing and it did cause me concern* but thought it might be reflection from the brown tabletop,* etc.  Unfortunately, it may not be as simple as that.
> *A proper visual inspection once received by the buyer should tell if it is in fact brown flashing or a reflection.*


Good news!  I received the tube, and the flashing doesn't have any "brown" tinge at all, in fact I don't think this is the same tube as in the photos; the seller did say he had 2 of them available.

He may have given me a different unit than in those photos, because the flashing toward the bottom of the glass envelope - above the Base - is all Silver, with an even height/intensity, all around the tube circumference, different than the tube in the photos.

The tube in the photo has that brown tinged  flashing on the front side in the photo, and shows a completely clear area on the back right - you can see the door/floor through the tube right at the top of the black base - where flashing would be on the tube he sent me.

I'll photograph it a some point and post it, but for now it is already in the TA-26, making sweet music...

*Update*: This Military Specification JAN (Joint Army Navy) RCA 6AS7G sounds clearer and more detailed than the "commercial" "Red Box" RCA 6AS7G...


bcowen said:


> These are _extremely_ rare.  I am *not* vouching for the seller OR the tube itself, just posting in case anyone is interested.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/203823301668?hash=item2f74d0c424:g:CwsAAOSwWyph~rbV


*FYI*, that auction house huntandpeckauctions has listed a bunch of 5998 tubes, and other nice tubes/hardware. 
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?ico...dpeckauctions&_oac=1&_nkw=5998&_dmd=1&_sop=16
https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=&_ssn=huntandpeckauctions&_sop=10


----------



## bcowen (Feb 11, 2022)

hmscott said:


> *FYI*, that auction house huntandpeckauctions has listed a bunch of 5998 tubes, and other nice tubes/hardware.
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?ico...dpeckauctions&_oac=1&_nkw=5998&_dmd=1&_sop=16
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=&_ssn=huntandpeckauctions&_sop=10


Yes, they do have some _very_ nice tubes listed.  All priced at 2x - 5x the going market, but still nice tubes.

Here you can get a choice pair of untested $3 Chinese tubes (with no return privileges) for the low, low price of $50 plus overcharged shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255380266649?hash=item3b75d99e99:g:GUYAAOSwJAhiBYTE

Or these for only $350 the pair. For someone that likes the way they sound (which doesn't include me) they can be easily had for less than $150/pair:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255379817101?hash=item3b75d2c28d:g:Uo8AAOSwSbdiBSuB



Meanwhile, since nobody showed any love for this lonely Tung Sol 6520, I made an offer to the seller and he accepted.  I _really_ tried *not* to hoard, but my cries for help went unheeded by all you guys. 😂

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203823301668?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## exchez

bcowen said:


> Yes, they do have some _very_ nice tubes listed.  All priced at 2x - 5x the going market, but still nice tubes.
> 
> Here you can get a choice pair of untested $3 Chinese tubes (with no return privileges) for the low, low price of $50 plus overcharged shipping:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255380266649?hash=item3b75d99e99:g:GUYAAOSwJAhiBYTE
> ...


I was intrigued by the 6520, but not having had a pair to listen to, it makes it hard know it's worth buying a single and waiting for another.


----------



## bcowen

exchez said:


> I was intrigued by the 6520, but not having had a pair to listen to, it makes it hard know it's worth buying a single and waiting for another.


I only need one for my amp which makes things much easier.     I've always been curious to hear what they sound like.


----------



## maxpudding (Feb 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Yes, they do have some _very_ nice tubes listed.  All priced at 2x - 5x the going market, but still nice tubes.
> 
> Here you can get a choice pair of untested $3 Chinese tubes (with no return privileges) for the low, low price of $50 plus overcharged shipping:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255380266649?hash=item3b75d99e99:g:GUYAAOSwJAhiBYTE
> ...


99 bucks? why not lower?


----------



## hmscott (Feb 11, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Some strange NIB 421A’s just come up on American eBay. They are 5998’s me thinks.





hmscott said:


> A pair of Westinghouse 421As, way overpriced at $700/pair, but it is a liquidation sale from an estate, and unlikely to get them tested, but possible.  It's gonna be risky - with no returns, but if they really are NIB/New tubes, those are pretty rare
> 
> "NOS NIB Pair Western Electric 421A Vacuum Tube #56.
> *We are selling the lifetime collection of an important audiophile collector in Virginia.*
> ...





hmscott said:


> *FYI*, that auction house huntandpeckauctions has listed a bunch of 5998 tubes, and other nice tubes/hardware.
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?ico...dpeckauctions&_oac=1&_nkw=5998&_dmd=1&_sop=16
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=&_ssn=huntandpeckauctions&_sop=10


*We are selling the lifetime collection of an important audiophile collector in Virginia.  All pieces are in excellent condition unless noted.*

*==>**And we accept best offers**<==*

That is key with these auction company listings.  They rarely know the exact real price / value of items they list, so it's best to see them as a negotiable resource, rather than a price setting standard bearer.


bcowen said:


> Yes, they do have some _very_ nice tubes listed.  All priced at 2x - 5x the going market, but still nice tubes.


Someone (from head-fi.org?) made an offer on the Lot #56 5998 pair of tube the seller offered to me for $500- simply from putting it in my cart - which took less than a day to get the offer from when I put it in my cart,  original price $700 - *and that $200 price drop suggests he is serious at liquidating those tubes, for a great deal of discount, if someone offers* - and sticks with the negotiations until an acceptable price is reached.  *I think he is actively looking to agree to good prices for those Lots...

NOS NIB Pair Western Electric 421A Vacuum Tube #56*
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255374646705





It would be nice to know how much Lot #56 sold for, so we can figure out his ask/sell range. Does anyone know?


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> 99 bucks? why not lower?


'Cause I'm a spendthrift.


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> That is key with these auction company listings.  They rarely know the exact real price / value of items they list, so it's best to see them as a negotiable resource, rather than a price setting standard bearer.


Thank you for the lesson.  Knock yourself out.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> 'Cause I'm a spendthrift.





bcowen said:


> Thank you for the lesson.  Knock yourself out.


I guess I shouldn't tempt you with such awesome deals 

I've hunted down and captured more than enough tubes to digest for a while, I've already been tempted by and bought 2 more "must have" tubes past my limit.

Right now I'm listening to this pairing: *1950 JAN RCA 6AS7G* + *1957 CBS JAN CHY 5692* and this pairing is "thrilling" to listen to, I'm mesmerized by the sound, I am so happy I stretched my limit to get them.

Without your help I would have ended up with far less thrilling tubes.
Thank you all for your kind help and sharing your expert knowledge.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bcowen said:


> Meanwhile, since nobody showed any love for this lonely Tung Sol 6520, I made an offer to the seller and he accepted.  I _really_ tried *not* to hoard, but my cries for help went unheeded by all you guys. 😂
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/203823301668?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649



Good find and still a decent price for a great tube. 

How many 6520s is that in your collection now? Would be interesting to see the differences between them. I stopped at 4 (or is it 3? - not at home to check) and I think there are two types so far.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 11, 2022)

CaptainFantastic said:


> Good find and still a decent price for a great tube.
> 
> How many 6520s is that in your collection now? Would be interesting to see the differences between them. I stopped at 4 (or is it 3? - not at home to check) and I think there are two types so far.


This will be my first_ real_ 6520, so I'm pretty excited to hear it.  I had a pair of NEC-branded 6520's I bought back when I was first learning about 6AS7's, but I sent one to a friend and broke the other one.  While it always sucks to break a tube, I didn't lose any sleep as it was pretty mundane and 'meh' sounding.  Turns out they were relabeled RCA 6AS7G's since RCA never made a 6520.  Live and learn.


----------



## CaptainFantastic (Feb 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> This will be my first_ real_ 6520, so I'm pretty excited to hear it.  I had a pair of NEC-branded 6520's I bought back when I was first learning about 6AS7's, but I sent one to a friend and broke the other one.  While it always sucks to break a tube, I didn't lose any sleep as it was pretty mundane and 'meh' sounding.  Turns out they were relabeled RCA 6AS7G's since RCA never made a 6520.  Live and learn.



Here are the ones I have:

#1 - Marked "6520 Made in U.S.A." Top D-getter, high chromium, rounded micas - sounds so good it got me convinced to be on the look out for more 6520s.



#2 - Marked "6520 75-03 Tung-Sol Made in U.S.A." Bottom O-getter, low and high chromium, rounded micas - sounds great, slightly less warm than #1



#3 - Marked "6520 322512-3 Made in U.S.A." Bottom O-getter, high chromium, rectangular micas, only listened to it to ensure it's perfectly quiet, no sound profile assessment yet



#4 - Marked "6520 75-03 Tung-Sol Made in U.S.A." Bottom O-getter, high chromium, rounded micas; last 6520, haven't assessed yet other than that it works perfectly



Come to think of it, I need to get a class photo. Maybe tomorrow.

Looking forward to seeing your 6520 and the impressions @bcowen

EDIT - I might be wrong on the bottom O getters on the last two. I will take a look.


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Here are the ones I have:
> 
> #1 - Marked "6520 Made in U.S.A." Top D-getter, high chromium, rounded micas - sounds so good it got me convinced to be on the look out for more 6520s.
> 
> ...



Three of those are simply 5998s, deliberately relabeled by Tung-Sol as 6520. It's not clear why TS did this, but these relabeled 5998 are actually more common than "real" 6520, which to the eye are identical to a standard TS 6AS7G.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

gibosi said:


> Three of those are simply 5998s, deliberately relabeled by Tung-Sol as 6520. It's not clear why TS did this, but these relabeled 5998 are actually more common than "real" 6520, which to the eye are identical to a standard TS 6AS7G.



Thanks. Good to know. I can swear the first 6520 sounds warmer and different than my 5998s. Perhaps every tube can sound a bit different, just odd that so many 5998s sound the same and this 6520 sounds different. Must be placebo effect at its best!


----------



## gibosi

CaptainFantastic said:


> Thanks. Good to know. I can swear the first 6520 sounds warmer and different than my 5998s. Perhaps every tube can sound a bit different, just odd that so many 5998s sound the same and this 6520 sounds different. Must be placebo effect at its best!



Yes, it could be the placebo effect. But tubes manufactured at different times, in the same factory by the same company, often sound different. And your first "6520", with D getters, was manufactured earlier than the others. In my experience, 5998s manufactured in the 1950's sound better.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Three of those are simply 5998s, deliberately relabeled by Tung-Sol as 6520. It's not clear why TS did this, but these relabeled 5998 are actually more common than "real" 6520, which to the eye are identical to a standard TS 6AS7G.


Well that makes me feel better.  The one I'm getting does not have domino plates and the alarm bells went off.  Thanks @gibosi !

Any odea what the code means on this:  322NF-133?  I've never seen that "NF" after the EIA code.


----------



## gibosi (Feb 11, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Well that makes me feel better.  The one I'm getting does not have domino plates and the alarm bells went off.  Thanks @gibosi !
> 
> Any odea what the code means on this:  322NF-133?  I've never seen that "NF" after the EIA code.



Well after having one too many customers complain to the dealer, "My new television has last year's tubes! I want new tubes!", Tung-Sol, Sylvania and others switched to dating systems that couldn't be deciphered so easily. lol

Unfortunately, I have seen only a small portion of Tung-Sol's new dating system which covered the period Jan 31, 1960, "HD", through July 31, 1962, "MR". These dates indicated when the warranty expired. I would assume that "NF" would be sometime after July, 1962, but that is only a guess. It appears that they deliberately made the system such that extrapolation doesn't seem to work.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Well after having one too many customers complain to the dealer, "My new television has last year's tubes! I want new tubes!", Tung-Sol, Sylvania and others switched to dating systems that couldn't be deciphered so easily. lol
> 
> Unfortunately, I have seen only a small portion of Tung-Sol's new dating system which covered the period Jan 31, 1960, "HD", through July 31, 1962, "MR". These dates indicated when the warranty expired. I would assume that "NF" would be sometime after July, 1962, but that is only a guess. It appears that they deliberately made the system such that extrapolation doesn't seem to work.


Ah, thanks.  I guess I probably shouldn't have thrown away that secret decoder ring.  😂😂


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 11, 2022)

I still have mine, let me see what I can find.  OK After deciphering it seems to say...

...'Be sure to drink your Ovaltine'.   



For those not wise in the ways of 'A Christmas Story'...


----------



## hmscott (Feb 11, 2022)

gibosi said:


> Three of those are simply 5998s, deliberately relabeled by Tung-Sol as 6520. It's not clear why TS did this, but these relabeled 5998 are actually more common than "real" 6520, which to the eye are identical to a standard TS 6AS7G.





gibosi said:


> Yes, it could be the placebo effect. But tubes manufactured at different times, in the same factory by the same company, often sound different. And your first "6520", with D getters, was manufactured earlier than the others. In my experience, 5998s manufactured in the 1950's sound better.





bcowen said:


> Well that makes me feel better.  The one I'm getting does not have domino plates and the alarm bells went off.  Thanks @gibosi !
> 
> Any odea what the code means on this:  322NF-133?  I've never seen that "NF" after the EIA code.


@gibosi - thanks for that warning, I would have easily bought the "6520" ala 5998 before learning about the Domino plates.

You (someone) did mention to not get the non-Domino plated 5998's earlier, if I am recalling it correctly?

So how do we identify a real 6520?  Will it look like a "bad" 5998 - without Domino plates?  Sorry, getting confused 


Ripper2860 said:


> I still have mine, let me see what I can find.  OK After deciphering it seems to say...
> ...'Be sure to drink your Ovaltine'.
> For those not wise in the ways of Christmas Story...


Yup, can confirm I did Drink My Ovaltine!  Bosco too!


----------



## hmscott (Feb 12, 2022)

@bcowen , I'm on the hunt for date codes, and found this one that says NF is June 1963:



It's not Tung-sol, probably not even the right "power" tube realm, but at least there is such a thing as the "NF" date code out there somewhere...
I wonder if the companies do standardize on these 2 letter date codes?
http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf

I'll keep looking

Update: Several confirmations that Tung-Sol changed hands many times and no-one thought to preserve the code sheet(s) for date codes....also customers during the 50's/60's didn't want "old" tubes, and customers learned to read the simple year/week codes, so that is why Tung-sol originally obfuscated the manufacturing date, so old tubes would sell.


----------



## abvolt

I've never been able to find a 6520 just 5998's which is ok I really enjoy them.


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> You (someone) did mention to not get the non-Domino plated 5998's earlier, if I am recalling it correctly?
> 
> So how do we identify a real 6520?  Will it look like a "bad" 5998 - without Domino plates?  Sorry, getting confused



1) Yes, if the tube doesn't have domino plates it is not a 5998 or a WE421.

2) Regarding the 6520, it looks exactly like a TS 6AS7G. There is no way to identify it by looks. The differences can't be seen. And I doubt that anyone would deliberately make a fake. So if it is labeled Tung-Sol 6520 and it looks identical to a TS 6AS7G, I think it is safe to call it a 6520. 

Essentially it is a 6AS7G that has been tweaked in ways you cannot see. You can read about the tweaks on the datasheet.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/upload/6520~~1.pdf


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> I wonder if the companies do standardize on these 2 letter date codes?



No they all used their own scheme.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 12, 2022)

gibosi said:


> No they all used their own scheme.


What I am finding is a much longer manufacturer code+numeric postamble that became the date code.  No mention of 2 letter date codes for Tung-sol tubes, here's what I found:

The first describes the 6 digit mfgr (322 for Tung-sol)/date code scheme, the 2nd has links to the articles I'll include below, that further expand the lists of mfgr codes, IDK about date codes...
https://community.klipsch.com/index...ung-sol-tubes/&do=findComment&comment=2230674


Do these 3 articles combined have enough info to decode the 6 digit Tung-Sol Code?
https://community.klipsch.com/index...ung-sol-tubes/&do=findComment&comment=2231049

http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm

https://www.tubemuseum.org/SearchResults.asp?Cat=30

http://www.tubemaze.info/deciphering-european-tube-date-codes/

So I wonder if @bcowen has a Tung-Sol labeled 6520 made by RCA with RCA date code NF, for June 1963, from the chart I posted back a few posts from here...

Is this an example of RCA made 6520 tubes labeled as Tung-Sol?

*Update:* My postulation isn't correct, @gibosi set me straight, RCA didn't make 6520/5998 tubes, only Tung-sol made them. So the NF date code on @bcowen 's 6520 is still an undecoded mystery...


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> What I am finding is a much longer manufacturer code+numeric postamble that became the date code.  No mention of 2 letter date codes for Tung-sol tubes, here's what I found:
> 
> The first describes the 6 digit mfgr (322 for Tung-sol)/date code scheme, the 2nd has links to the articles I'll include below, that further expand the lists of mfgr codes, IDK about date codes...
> https://community.klipsch.com/index...ung-sol-tubes/&do=findComment&comment=2230674
> ...



It seems that you really really want the date code on that 6520 to be an RCA date code!

But unfortunately there is nothing new in the links you have posted.....

I think the simplest explanation fits the facts the best. To my knowledge RCA never made a 6520, but Tung-Sol did. So that 6520 was manufactured by Tung-Sol, not RCA. And then I think you insult all the many talented people who worked at Tung-Sol by implying that they were either too lazy or not capable of devising a date-code system tailored specifically to the needs of Tung-Sol? Again, TS devised this system and it is theirs and theirs alone. But unfortunately the key to deciphering these codes is not known to me....


----------



## hmscott (Feb 12, 2022)

gibosi said:


> ...I think the simplest explanation fits the facts the best. To my knowledge RCA never made a 6520, but Tung-Sol did. So that 6520 was manufactured by Tung-Sol, not RCA. And then I think you insult all the many talented people who worked at Tung-Sol by implying that they were either too lazy or not capable of devising a date-code system tailored specifically to the needs of Tung-Sol? Again, TS devised this system and it is theirs and theirs alone. But unfortunately the key to deciphering these codes is not known to me....


That's the missing info I needed to know, that the 6520/5998 tubes were only made by Tung-sol, and so no RCA created date code would be found.

Yes, I am learning, and trying to fit all the pieces together, that's how my brain works.  Occasionally I put together the puzzle looking for answers, and I am doing it without enough pieces of information to solve the puzzle.

I wasn't looking to insult anyone, I was looking for feedback and corrections to what I was thinking, and I very much appreciate the course correction.  There's no need to be upset when I speculate like that, it's a sign I don't have the answer and I am trying to find it by putting together the pieces I have, to assist me in finding the missing pieces.

I'd like to know as much as I can before buying a 6520, or a 5998, so I don't end up making the mistakes when spending my meager funds.  

Sorry for the long gap in my reply, I just woke up after literally passing out from 90 minutes in the local Hospital's Respiratory Therapy "Cabinet of Doom".  I never knew my lungs could hurt.  I still feel it 10 hours later.  I normally take 3 inhalers 2x a day, so I'm already overtasking my lungs, this test really flipped me over - but I completed it and passed.  No t-shirt for completion, but I did get a nifty Respironics device to aid in using one of my inhalers.

My graph compared to "normal" shows I'm under capacity by about 20% or so - eyeballing the graphs showing on the screen of the PC controlling the "Cabinet of Doom", while shut in inside the walls of the transparent cabinet:


Spoiler: Photo of the Cabinet of Doom



Photo from The *British Lung Foundation*






I couldn't finish the Elevated Treadmill Test, disabled + arthritis + lungs did me in early, but this one I was determined to follow through to the end.  Perhaps not my best choice. So it is nice to know I have the support and caring of my internet friends to come back to, to cheer me up.
Thank you for the passionate and caring response, I do appreciate the correction of my postulate, and I've updated my earlier post with the correction.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 12, 2022)

So the fact that you posted after your tests indicates that you made it through the hardest part...





where they fill it full of water and wait for you to escape.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 12, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> So the fact that you posted after your tests indicates that you made it through the hardest part...
> 
> 
> 
> where they fill it full of water and wait for you to escape.


Yup, complete with air/gas tanks - part of the test injects gases into the air tube after mixing behind the scene - breathing in and out for about 5 minutes with the Cabinet sealed.

When they sealed the door I asked them if I will get my divers certification as part of the test, he said we'll wait for the cabinet to fill up before starting the next test!

The situation reminded me of Agent 86 and 99 sealed in a phone booth while it was filling up with water, they sure made it look like a lot of fun. Thinking about that funny scene kept me happy and calm while waiting for the gases to mix.


I'll say it is nice to have it over, at least until the next one in 6-12 months!

Plenty of time for more 6AS7G's until then!


----------



## LoryWiv

hmscott said:


> That's the missing info I needed to know, that the 6520/5998 tubes were only made by Tung-sol, and so no RCA created date code would be found.
> 
> Yes, I am learning, and trying to fit all the pieces together, that's how my brain works.  Occasionally I put together the puzzle looking for answers, and I am doing it without enough pieces of information to solve the puzzle.
> 
> ...


Wishing you a return to robust health and hoping music is always a healing force.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 12, 2022)

LoryWiv said:


> Wishing you a return to robust health and hoping music is always a healing force.


Thank you, and I agree, music is such a positive and healthy contribution to a healthy and happy life, such a joy in every aspect and time of life.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 16, 2022)

The 4 6N13S (5AS7G) tubes ordered from 12-rocketman shipped from Russia were delivered much faster than I expected, instead of 3 weeks it took only 10 days:

Feb 5,   2022   4:40 pm Acceptance - Received by Russian Post Moscow
Feb 15, 2022   3:19pm Delivered

I am testing each of the Russian 6AS7G tubes with a CBS JAN CHY 5692 in the TA-26:

6N5S / 6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 SVETLANA TUBE NOS OTK USSR RARE *1950`s* lot 1pc. US $19.84 - No paper, fits photo, exact 1950's year?

6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 TUBE SVETLANA Double Triode NOS DATE *1960`s *USSR Lot 1pc. US $13.69 - ID via Big "C", exact 1960's year?

6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 SVETLANA TUBE Double Triode NOS OTK USSR Lot 1pc. US $12.88 - No box/paper, ID via Little "C" on Tube, year?

6N13S /6AS7G /ECC230 /6N5S TUBE SVETLANA TRIODE NOS IN BOX OTK lot 1pc. or more US $14.58 Paper says 1986, OTK Stamp on Box says 1988

The tubes were well packed in 2 medium boxes in a side/side bundle using bubble wrap and styrofoam, with 3 6N13S tubes rolled in bubble wrap, 1 6N13S in original sealed box, 1 6N13S in a cut box.  I am trying to ID each of the 3 rolled up + 1 of the boxed tubes, as there was no written ID or packing slip.

*Does anyone know how to read the Russian/Svetlana tube markings / stamps to establish build date?  The "C" has a mark on either side:*

"V C 61", 'XI C 63", "VII C 58", "  C 6H13C over 85 12", "  C 6H13C over 88 03"

The last one has the nicest sealed box/stamps on the outside, with a date written in pencil - 88.08, and a 1988 stamp on the box and the tube, along with:  "  C 6H13C over 88 03" etched into the tube.

There are many other stamps on each tube, but I'm hoping those unique "C" marks will allow 12-rocketman to tell me which tube matches which listing, and give me a memory cue to link age to markings for each tube.

12-rocketman also gave me a free 6H13C tube - in lieu of a $17 refund for combined shipping, besides the 4 tubes listed, which helps make tube ID'ing that much more fun.

The 1953 Melz 6N8S from 12-rocketman to pair with the Russian tubes on the TA-26 was also packed into the boxes.  A Russian manufacturers product paper was rolled around the tube says 1952 + OTK Stamp 1957, eBay listing says 1953:
6N8S / 6SN7 / 1578 MELZ TUBE HOLE PLATE NOS METAL BASE DATE 1953 Lot 1pc.

The TA-26 is cooling down for the first test run, I wonder which 6N13S Svetlana "C" tube I should pair up with the 5692?, or should I test with the 1953 Melz?  I think I'll start by swapping in the 1953 Melz, to see how it plays with the '50 Jan RCA 6AS7G.


----------



## JTbbb

hmscott said:


> The 4 6N13S (5AS7G) tubes ordered from 12-rocketman shipped from Russia were delivered much faster than I expected, instead of 3 weeks it took only 10 days:
> 
> Feb 5,   2022   4:40 pm Acceptance - Received by Russian Post Moscow
> Feb 15, 2022   3:19pm Delivered
> ...


That’s probably a nice Melz tube you have, but it isn’t a 1578.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 16, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> That’s probably a nice Melz tube you have, but it isn’t a 1578.


Yup, the 1953 Melz 6N8S really does sound great.  I swapped out the CBS JAN 5962 for the 1953 Melz 6N8S, and the Melz is really holding up nicely.  I've not had it in long, but it has a similar clear impactful sound, without any unwanted resonances.  A very nice sounding tube.




The Melz 1578 is next. 

What price do you think would be fair for a great single tube 50's Melz 1578?


----------



## JTbbb

hmscott said:


> Yup, the 1953 Melz 6N8S really does sound great.  I swapped out the CBS JAN 5962 for the 1953 Melz 6N8S, and the Melz is really holding up nicely.  I've not had it in long, but it has a similar clear impactful sound, without any unwanted resonances.  A very nice sounding tube.
> 
> 
> The Melz 1578 is next.
> ...


Well that’s a million dollar question! I guess I wouldn’t be too far off the mark if I say $125 ’ish plus. But be careful it’s the real deal. To many out there claiming a 1578, when it is not. Not too far back in one of the 6sn7 threads, there is guidance on how to spot a true 1578 and which years are the best.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 16, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Well that’s a million dollar question! I guess I wouldn’t be too far off the mark if I say $125 ’ish plus. But be careful it’s the real deal. To many out there claiming a 1578, when it is not. Not too far back in one of the 6sn7 threads, there is guidance on how to spot a true 1578 and which years are the best.


12-rocketman did such a great job with these tubes, I'll probably give these a chance, for the pair he offered me he didn't specifiy a year.  I found this old eBay Sold listing by 12-rocketman on my own:

MATCHED PAIR 6N8S / 6SN7 / 1578 MELZ TUBE HOLE PLATE NOS METAL BASE DATE 1954




12-rocketman 's offered them to me for $300/pair. I only need one tube and IDK if I really need a backup. Perhaps he'll find a single tube to sell me


----------



## JTbbb (Feb 16, 2022)

hmscott said:


> 12-rocketman did such a great job with these tubes, I'll probably give these a chance:
> 
> MATCHED PAIR 6N8S / 6SN7 / 1578 MELZ TUBE HOLE PLATE NOS METAL BASE DATE 1954
> 
> ...


From what I can see they look genuine. You will just need to tie down the year.

Edit: You could always sell one on.


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> *Does anyone know how to read the Russian/Svetlana tube markings / stamps to establish build date?  The "C" has a mark on either side:*
> 
> "V C 61", 'XI C 63", "VII C 58", "  C 6H13C over 85 12"


Those are the dates.  1961, 1963, 1958, and 1985.  In earlier tubes the month is in Roman numerals to the left of the Winged C logo, and the year to the right. In later years it was year/month under the logo in regular numeric text.  There's nothing cryptic about Russian date codes (at least with Svetlana, Foton, and Melz), it's mostly an issue of whether they're still visible or not.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 16, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> From what I can see they look genuine. You will just need to tie down the year.
> 
> Edit: You could always sell one on.


Yeah, I could sell one, but if I do it probably won't be right away. 

I think he doesn't show photo's of a specific tube month/year so he doesn't need to reshoot the photo's for every different year listing.  For the pair he offered me he didn't specifiy a year.  I found the old eBay Sold listing by 12-rocketman on my own.

He probably has more than one "box" and even the year may vary, as all the years of 6H13C's I received are earlier than I expected, a nice surprise:


bcowen said:


> Those are the dates.  1961, 1963, 1958, and 1985.  In earlier tubes the month is in Roman numerals to the left of the Winged C logo, and the year to the right. In later years it was year/month under the logo in regular numeric text.  There's nothing cryptic about Russian date codes (at least with Svetlana, Foton, and Melz), it's mostly an issue of whether they're still visible or not.


I hoped it was that easy, but you never know, so I thought I'd ask first before stating the obvious, incorrectly.  Thank you. 

Now I need to match each 6H13C tube to the correct listing I bought... some seem like an easy match, a couple don't, so I've asked 12-rocketman which is which.

If I get stuck I'll post some photo's later.

He probably thought I knew enough to figure it out for myself, so he didn't bother labeling them.


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Now I need to match each 6H13C tube to the correct listing I bought... some seem like an easy match, a couple don't, so I've asked 12-rocketman which is which.


What difference does it make?


----------



## hmscott (Feb 17, 2022)

bcowen said:


> What difference does it make?


If I like a particular tube, and I want to recommend it to someone else, it would be nice if I can share the correct link/listing so they get the same tube from the same case my favorite tube came from.  Repeatability is the whole point behind uniquely identifiable products, matching a physical tube to the description, price and reorder number.

And, if I have a problem with a tube - it doesn't work - I'd like to be able to ask for the correct replacement, or the correct $ refund.

Each listing was for a specific price and other specifics that make each listing unique, otherwise he would have simply had one eBay listing - "Russian Tube" - Price, and be done with it.

If one tube is as good as another, why create so many unique listings?

Don't you check your purchase order, shipping bill of materials, and store reciept after you check out and/or receive your purchases and double check you got what you thought you ordered and paid the correct amounts for each?

If a seller finds someone that doesn't care what they are sent, and simply orders, pays, and then acccepts whatever he gets blindly without verifying what is received, that wouldn't build a trusting relationship.  Always count your change.

So here is what I matched up, I messaged him to ask to see if I got them matched up correctly:

"V C 61", 'XI C 63", "VII C 58", " C 6H13C over 85 12", " C 6H13C over 88 03"

6N5S / 6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 SVETLANA TUBE NOS OTK USSR RARE 1950`s lot 1pc. US $19.84 -  "VII C 58"
6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 TUBE SVETLANA Double Triode NOS DATE 1960`s USSR Lot 1pc. US $13.69 - 'XI C 63"
6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 SVETLANA TUBE Double Triode NOS OTK USSR Lot 1pc. US $12.88 - " C 6H13C over 85 12"
6N13S /6AS7G /ECC230 /6N5S TUBE SVETLANA TRIODE NOS IN BOX OTK lot 1pc.. US $14.58 -  " C 6H13C over 88 03"
Extra 6H13C: "V C 61" - tube instead of $17 back for combining shipping

Thanks for your help @bcowen !

*Update*: 12-rocketman answered that yes, that is the correct tube to listing association


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> What difference does it make?


Call you tell the difference if they don't match? LOL


----------



## alexeyi (Feb 16, 2022)

attmci said:


> Call you tell the difference if they don't match? LOL


It might depend how big is the mismatch between them, but if you throw two random ones and you are unlucky to get a big difference you will definitely hear it.

There are equipments that let you balance some things using pots, so it makes it easier to integrate different tubes, but the regular stuff will not, so if you can get a pair of tubes which are closer in specs, the better for the final result.


----------



## attmci (Feb 16, 2022)

alexeyi said:


> It might depend how big is the mismatch between them, but if you throw two random ones and you are unlucky to get a big difference you will definitely hear it.
> 
> There are equipments that let you balance some things using pots, so it makes it easier to integrate different tubes, but the regular stuff will not, so if you can get a pair of tubes which are closer in specs, the better for the final result.


To be honest, if they are  a pair of identical NOS tube (same structure) and not microphonic, it's hard to tell the different in real life.


----------



## hmscott (Feb 17, 2022)

attmci said:


> Call you tell the difference if they don't match? LOL





alexeyi said:


> It might depend how big is the mismatch between them, but if you throw two random ones and you are unlucky to get a big difference you will definitely hear it.
> 
> There are equipments that let you balance some things using pots, so it makes it easier to integrate different tubes, but the regular stuff will not, so if you can get a pair of tubes which are closer in specs, the better for the final result.


There might be a range of production where it wouldn't matter which were matched up with another, as long as they measured the same - matched as if they were the same date of production run - but that won't happen anyway with my TA-26, as it only uses one 6H13C/6AS7G at a time.  That is why I bought 1 of each decade instead of 2.


attmci said:


> To be honest, if they are  a pair of identical NOS tube (same structure) and not microphonic, it's hard to tell the different in real life.


He said this in the first response to my questions before purchase:

"_*From my sales experience, early 6N13S (from the 60s and 70s) and 6N5S (6n5s and 6n13s are similar to each other in characteristics, the difference is minimal, they can be used on the same device.*_"

So does that mean the '50's and '80's production tubes sound different?  I thought at the time I'd listen to them first before asking for clarification.  He shipped 2 60's tubes and no '70's tubes... perhaps he is out of '70's production?

He shipped 2 6H13C's from the 60's and 2 6H13C's from the 80's, I was pretty sure one of the 60's tubes was the tube included to cover the $17 combined shipping refund, but it would be nice to know which was which - like if I order another tube from the 60's listing will he be pulling another '61 or another '63 from the same case?

"V C 61", 'XI C 63", "VII C 58", " C 6H13C over 85 12", " C 6H13C over 88 03"

6N5S / 6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 SVETLANA TUBE NOS OTK USSR RARE 1950`s lot 1pc. US $19.84 -  "VII C 58"  - 75g
6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 TUBE SVETLANA Double Triode NOS DATE 1960`s USSR Lot 1pc. US $13.69 - 'XI C 63" - 86g
6N13S / 6AS7G / ECC230 SVETLANA TUBE Double Triode NOS OTK USSR Lot 1pc. US $12.88 - " C 6H13C over 85 12" - 80g
6N13S /6AS7G /ECC230 /6N5S TUBE SVETLANA TRIODE NOS IN BOX OTK lot 1pc.. US $14.58 -  " C 6H13C over 88 03" - 72g
Extra 6H13C: "V C 61" - tube instead of $17 back for combining shipping - 77g

*Update*: 12-rocketman answered that yes, that is the correct tube to listing association.  I think I will ask him later if he has '70's 6H13C tubes.


----------



## Dogmatrix

Russian tubes are great , my best amp fortunately has a liking for them 
I have put together a reasonable collection with some relatively rare examples and a good selection of dates
Differences are small and pay no attention to production date 
Russian tubes from the same batch can vary as widely as those decades apart
Checking the tubes in my amp which were selected predominately for low noise one is 71 the other 77


----------



## hmscott (Feb 17, 2022)

Dogmatrix said:


> Russian tubes are great , my best amp fortunately has a liking for them
> I have put together a reasonable collection with some relatively rare examples and a good selection of dates
> Differences are small and pay no attention to production date
> Russian tubes from the same batch can vary as widely as those decades apart
> Checking the tubes in my amp which were selected predominately for low noise one is 71 the other 77


@Dogmatrix - Thank you!, that is the info I have been looking for, I appreciate you sharing it with us. 

I've only just begun listening - first 1958 Svetlana 6H13C + 1953 Melz 6N8S tube pairing in my TA-26, and they sound great together, but I have few examples to reference to compare them to, so far.

I've still to listen to the other 6H13C tubes, a '61, '63, '85, and '88 - of all the decades of production you've found the 70's are best? - lowest noise at least?

Would you please share some links for Russian tube info you've found useful?


----------



## raindownthunda

Something different


----------



## Dogmatrix

hmscott said:


> @Dogmatrix - Thank you!, that is the info I have been looking for, I appreciate you sharing it with us.
> 
> I've only just begun listening - first 1958 Svetlana 6H13C + 1953 Melz 6N8S tube pairing in my TA-26, and they sound great together, but I have few examples to reference to compare them to, so far.
> 
> ...


Russian tubes really are a lottery all you can do is look for well regarded sellers 
Testing is of limited value as has been well covered but I think it is useful when looking for matched sections or pairs from the same seller
Noise is something that seems to follow  no logical path , no low noise brands , years or levels of use that I have been able to identify 
I have old clearly well used tubes that are quiet and strong and pristine nos tubes with crisp boxes that buzz like an old fridge


----------



## hmscott (Feb 17, 2022)

Dogmatrix said:


> Russian tubes really are a lottery all you can do is look for well regarded sellers
> Testing is of limited value as has been well covered but I think it is useful when looking for matched sections or pairs from the same seller
> Noise is something that seems to follow  no logical path , no low noise brands , years or levels of use that I have been able to identify
> I have old clearly well used tubes that are quiet and strong and pristine nos tubes with crisp boxes that buzz like an old fridge


Thanks, that helps set my expectations.  Who wold be some well reguarded sellers?  Links?

And, an unrelated question, what do those numbers in your signature mean?     800 274/421/7308  ?


----------



## Dogmatrix

hmscott said:


> Thanks, that helps set my expectations.  Who wold be some well reguarded sellers?  Links?
> 
> And, an unrelated question, what do those numbers in your signature mean?     800 274/421/7308  ?


I have purchased from all the regulars on Ebay never a problem , I just look for the best deals 
These days I just hunt the rare birds 
Those numbers refer to my previous best amp , Senn HD800 , WE274b(replica) , WE421a(genuine) , Amperex 7308


----------



## hmscott

Dogmatrix said:


> I have purchased from all the regulars on Ebay never a problem , I just look for the best deals
> These days I just hunt the rare birds
> Those numbers refer to my previous best amp , Senn HD800 , WE274b(replica) , WE421a(genuine) , Amperex 7308


Very nice, I'm so happy I asked 

Great tubes, and a great pair of headphones.  Life is good


----------



## ostewart

Would I be correct in thinking these are 60's RCA 6AS7G's? - picked up a pair for £40 - should I be worried about the rainbow tint on the flashing?


----------



## Dogmatrix

ostewart said:


> Would I be correct in thinking these are 60's RCA 6AS7G's? - picked up a pair for £40 - should I be worried about the rainbow tint on the flashing?


Looks like a nice example
Getter flash doesn't really do much , although the glass does leak at a molecular level there is enough reactive material to cope even if it is barely visible
If it turns white the tube is dead


----------



## ostewart

Dogmatrix said:


> Looks like a nice example
> Getter flash doesn't really do much , although the glass does leak at a molecular level there is enough reactive material to cope even if it is barely visible
> If it turns white the tube is dead



The pair for £40 is quite a good price, pretty happy overall.


----------



## Dogmatrix

ostewart said:


> The pair for £40 is quite a good price, pretty happy overall.


How times have changed I would have thought 1/4 of that price fair just a couple of years ago
These days it is indeed a fair price 
If you get the chance , early military issue RCA 6080 are very good I prefer those to RCA 6as7g


----------



## hp4fun

What's the most affordable tube tester for 6AS7G? Thanks!


----------



## No Deal

Can anyone who may have seen these offer some advice regarding the authenticity to a newbie.  I am assuming they are overpriced.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2553766708...brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2510209.c100903.m5276


----------



## gibosi

No Deal said:


> Can anyone who may have seen these offer some advice regarding the authenticity to a newbie.  I am assuming they are overpriced.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255376670853?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20180105095853&meid=e7284f2dcfbe433faa870a7520a29ff9&pid=100903&rk=1&rkt=20&sd=255376670853&itm=255376670853&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2510209&brand=Tung-Sol&_trksid=p2510209.c100903.m5276



Yes, they certainly appear to be genuine. That said, yes, nearly all of this particular vendor's listings are definitely overpriced. Be patient and a better deal will eventually popup.


----------



## No Deal

Thanks!


----------



## Monsterzero

As @gibosi said, those are the real deal. While expensive, Woo Audio sells them for $500.00 *a piece!

https://wooaudio.com/tubes/tungsol-5998-each*

Ive purchased from that seller. The key with them is to watch an item, and they will usually shoot you a discounted offer. For example, they are selling AF598 rectifier tubes for $229.00. I "watched" them, and received an offer of $150.00 from them. While I didn't bite on the 150.00 (yet) thats a pretty hefty discount from the original asking price.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 19, 2022)

Monsterzero said:


> *Ive purchased from that seller. The key with them is to watch an item, and they will usually shoot you a discounted offer. For example, they are selling AF598 rectifier tubes for $229.00. I "watched" them, and received an offer of $150.00 from them. While I didn't bite on the 150.00 (yet) thats a pretty hefty discount from the original asking price.*


This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've put a couple things they are listing on my watchlist and have received offers shortly thereafter at substantial discounts too.

They sent an offer of $1800 for these WE 422A's originally listed for $3000.  From obscenely overpriced to just regular overpriced.    To @No Deal , might be worth seeing how much they'd "offer" for the 5998's if you put them in your watchlist.  If they come back at, say, $300, counteroffer at $250 (which would be a very good price for a pair), and see what happens.


----------



## Monsterzero

bcowen said:


> If they come back at, say, $300, counteroffer at $250 (which would be a very good price for a pair), and see what happens.


So far ive been unable to negotiate with them on their "discounted" price. I countered @125.00, down from 150.00 and it was rejected, no bargaining, no back and forth.


----------



## Velozity (Feb 19, 2022)

This roll has me in another place...highly enjoyable.


----------



## VanHai

They sent me an offer that i can not resist, for $35.00. Will see if they ship it.

ORDER DATE
Feb 18, 2022
ORDER NUMBER
08279
SOLD BY
huntandpeckauctions(1 item) 

ORDER TOTAL
US $45.56

*Order USAF-596 Tube Rectifier #22* Leave feedback - ORDER DATE Feb 18, 2022




USAF-596 Tube Rectifier #22
( 255369928945 )

Estimated delivery *Fri, Feb 25*


ITEM PRICE:
US $35.00


----------



## Renexx (Feb 19, 2022)

I got this really nice pair of 5998 bottom getters for 300$. Good deal I would say.

I'm not sure if they are like WE421a since they have a bottom and top O getter.. They seem to have the same gain factor. 
5998 Top getters are a little louder.

I don't really understand the measurements and can't tell if they say NOS.
But tubes seem NIB unused.

Can someone tell what the date codes on the 5998 mean ?


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> I got this really nice pair of 5998 bottom getters for 300$. Good deal I would say.
> 
> I'm not sure if they are like WE421a since they have a bottom and top O getter.. They seem to have the same gain factor.
> 5998 Top getters are a little louder.
> ...


On the 5998's, left one is Feb. 1966, and right one is Jan. 1967.

IIRC, NOS mA/V for a 5998 is a little over 15, so both are at NOS levels. First triode on the bottom box is a bit under, but very little.


----------



## Renexx

Thanks alot. 
I wonder why the box states  11/65 packed if the tubes were made later.


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> Thanks alot.
> I wonder why the box states  11/65 packed if the tubes were made later.


More than likely the box was swapped or mixed up with another tube somewhere along the way.


----------



## Renexx (Feb 19, 2022)

bcowen said:


> More than likely the box was swapped or mixed up with another tube somewhere along the way.


Yes that must be it.

I doubt Tungsol 7236 came in perfectly healthy Westinghouse Boxes from the 60s haha. Seem to be new replacement boxes.

Any complains aside  I'm  perfectly happy with the deal.


----------



## bcowen

Renexx said:


> Yes that must be it.
> 
> I doubt Tungsol 7236 came in perfectly healthy Westinghouse Boxes from the 60s haha. Seem to be new replacement boxes.
> 
> Any complains aside  I'm  perfectly happy with the deal.


$300 for a NOS testing pair of TS 5998's is a very good deal.  Getting harder and harder to find them, especially in new condition.


----------



## No Deal

bcowen said:


> This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I've put a couple things they are listing on my watchlist and have received offers shortly thereafter at substantial discounts too.
> 
> They sent an offer of $1800 for these WE 422A's originally listed for $3000.  From obscenely overpriced to just regular overpriced.    To @No Deal , might be worth seeing how much they'd "offer" for the 5998's if you put them in your watchlist.  If they come back at, say, $300, counteroffer at $250 (which would be a very good price for a pair), and see what happens.


Thanks for the advice. It worked.

I am also looking at 2 pairs of 7236 tubes.  One pair has one red label and one black label tube.  The factory code is not visible on either tube.  only a four digit number (6211 and 6508).

The other two are both white label tubes but the Tung Sol factory code starts with 321(3213999) instead of 322.

Don't know what is going on here.


----------



## gibosi (Feb 20, 2022)

No Deal said:


> Thanks for the advice. It worked.
> 
> I am also looking at 2 pairs of 7236 tubes.  One pair has one red label and one black label tube.  The factory code is not visible on either tube.  only a four digit number (6211 and 6508).
> 
> ...



Probably,
6211 = 1962, week 11
6508 = 1965, week 8

And yes, 322 is the EIA code for Tung Sol. The meaning of "3213999" is unknown to me. My best guess is that it was a number of some importance to the eventual end user, perhaps an inventory number or similar. But again, I don't have a clue.


----------



## gibosi

Decided to roll some old 6N5S output tubes this evening. These old Russian tubes are often dismissed as bottom of the barrel by many, but to my ears, they are quite good. 

FYI, they are matched up with a Valvo G4004 rectifier and a pair of Raytheon Type 76 triodes.


----------



## plb0202

Hi All

Have just received a set of TS-5998. There is quite a bit of background noise present when no music is playing. With the same rectifier and drivers in place a set of GEC 6080’s are virtually silent. The 5998 left channel in particular has a buzz that comes and goes. Is this normal, should I be expecting a near silent background in a tube amp. Given the GEC 6080 are very quiet I am thinking other tubes can be the same. 

Cheers


----------



## bpiotrow13

plb0202 said:


> Hi All
> 
> Have just received a set of TS-5998. There is quite a bit of background noise present when no music is playing. With the same rectifier and drivers in place a set of GEC 6080’s are virtually silent. The 5998 left channel in particular has a buzz that comes and goes. Is this normal, should I be expecting a near silent background in a tube amp. Given the GEC 6080 are very quiet I am thinking other tubes can be the same.
> 
> Cheers


Tubes ideally should be silent, although not all of them are silent unfortunately. Try to clean the pins, it may help. If Your tubes are NOS they may need some time. One of my 6as7g NOS tubes was hissing and needed some time. Suddenly it stopped hissing completly.


----------



## bcowen

plb0202 said:


> Hi All
> 
> Have just received a set of TS-5998. There is quite a bit of background noise present when no music is playing. With the same rectifier and drivers in place a set of GEC 6080’s are virtually silent. The 5998 left channel in particular has a buzz that comes and goes. Is this normal, should I be expecting a near silent background in a tube amp. Given the GEC 6080 are very quiet I am thinking other tubes can be the same.
> 
> Cheers


Chances are that the tube pins need resoldered.  I have four 5998's, and three of them were noisy to one extent or another until I resoldered (from just mild hum to spitting and crackling to one with a triode that would just drop out altogether). After resoldering they are quiet with zero hum or spurious noises.  Haven't had to do anything with the fourth one yet, but it's probably just a matter of time.


----------



## VanHai

I just received a pair of Tung Sol 5998. Please help to decode them, thank you.

On the glass. 

  5538
  5998
     5
Bottom 

322606-3


----------



## gibosi (Mar 2, 2022)

VanHai said:


> I just received a pair of Tung Sol 5998. Please help to decode them, thank you.
> 
> On the glass.
> 
> ...



322 = Tung Sol
606 = 1956 week 6
3 = Probably a factory building or assembly line.

Edit: 5538 = 1955 week 38. So this would be the date of manufacture, and 1956 week 6 would be the date that the tube was actually labeled and shipped.


----------



## VanHai

gibosi said:


> 322 = Tung Sol
> 606 = 1956 week 6
> 3 = Probably a factory building or assembly line.
> 
> Edit: 5538 = 1955 week 38. So this would be the date of manufacture, and 1956 week 6 would be the date that the tube was actually labeled and shipped.


Thank you very much for your help.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> 322 = Tung Sol
> 606 = 1956 week 6
> 3 = Probably a factory building or assembly line.
> 
> Edit: 5538 = 1955 week 38. So this would be the date of manufacture, and 1956 week 6 would be the date that the tube was actually labeled and shipped.


AFAIK, the number following the dash is the shift it was produced on, so 3rd shift for these tubes.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> AFAIK, the number following the dash is the shift it was produced on, so 3rd shift for these tubes.



It could be....  But personally, I have never seen "1" or "2", for the first and second shifts? In fact, the only numbers I have ever seen after the dash are "3" and "5".


----------



## Thaddy

I recently snagged this pair of NOS RCA 6AS7G's from eBay for $40.  The seller states they tested 1350/1400 and 1375/1400 on a Hickok 752A.   Looks to be original boxes too?  Curious if the codes on the base indicate they were manufactured in January of 1948?  These are gray plates with a single bottom D getter.


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> It could be....  But personally, I have never seen "1" or "2", for the first and second shifts? In fact, the only numbers I have ever seen after the dash are "3" and "5".


I've read that the number following the dash indicated the shift in several places.  Of course there's no guarantee that the info on those sites is accurate either, so it's a FWIW kind of thing.  I've never paid attention to that number myself, but I only see a -3 on several easily fetched tubes in the stash. If it truly is a shift code, either 3rd shift was _really_ productive , or maybe the 3 is just a code for the shift and not the actual time-of-day of the shift.  

http://pax-comm.com/pa01042.htm




http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm


----------



## gibosi

Thaddy said:


> I recently snagged this pair of NOS RCA 6AS7G's from eBay for $40.  The seller states they tested 1350/1400 and 1375/1400 on a Hickok 752A.   Looks to be original boxes too?  Curious if the codes on the base indicate they were manufactured in January of 1948?  These are gray plates with a single bottom D getter.



In this case, it is 1951 week 48.


----------



## bcowen

Thaddy said:


> I recently snagged this pair of NOS RCA 6AS7G's from eBay for $40.  The seller states they tested 1350/1400 and 1375/1400 on a Hickok 752A.   Looks to be original boxes too?  Curious if the codes on the base indicate they were manufactured in January of 1948?  These are gray plates with a single bottom D getter.


I think the 1-48 signifies the 48th week of 1951.  Assuming those are the raw meter readings (I have a 752A myself) and the seller is being honest, those test readings are quite good at slightly higher than average NOS levels. It's not often that the triodes in a 6AS7 are that closely matched IME, so those are some choice examples there.


----------



## Thaddy (Mar 3, 2022)

gibosi said:


> In this case, it is 1951 week 48.


Well for $40 I'm pretty happy, whether it's '48 or '51.  They're dead silent in my WA22.  I've always been very happy with these old RCA's.  I feel like they provide great value and are still easily found.  Compared to my others this is hands down the best set on paper.


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> I've read that the number following the dash indicated the shift in several places. Of course there's no guarantee that the info on those sites is accurate either, so it's a FWIW kind of thing. I've never paid attention to that number myself, but I only see a -3 on several easily fetched tubes in the stash. If it truly is a shift code, either 3rd shift was _really_ productive , or maybe the 3 is just a code for the shift and not the actual time-of-day of the shift.



Another data point: I've got about twenty 6BX7's and every single one of them has "3".


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> Another data point: I've got about twenty 6BX7's and every single one of them has "3".


You made me go look.  LOL!  All I can find have a -3, a -138, or a -108 (and some wartime era tubes with no dash at all).  How's that for confusing things further?


----------



## jonathan c

gibosi said:


> Another data point: I've got about twenty 6BX7's and every single one of them has "3".


I hope that those are not all ‘third shift on Fridays’….😳


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I hope that those are not all ‘third shift on Fridays’….😳


If I was a Tung Sol manager, I'd be wondering what in hell was going on during 1 and 2.  🤣


----------



## HTSkywalker

Thaddy said:


> I recently snagged this pair of NOS RCA 6AS7G's from eBay for $40.  The seller states they tested 1350/1400 and 1375/1400 on a Hickok 752A.   Looks to be original boxes too?  Curious if the codes on the base indicate they were manufactured in January of 1948?  These are gray plates with a single bottom D getter.


Good price, normally selling around $50


----------



## mab1376

My 5998's have date code 3002399, got the pair for $300 from a fellow head-fi'er, subjectively they sound great on my wa22!

What does my date code mean?


----------



## gibosi

mab1376 said:


> My 5998's have date code 3002399, got the pair for $300 from a fellow head-fi'er, subjectively they sound great on my wa22!
> 
> What does my date code mean?



Unfortunately, it's not a date code. "3002399" is IBM's internal inventory number for the 5998. And sometimes you will see just the last four digits, "2399". Is there anything else printed on the base that might be a date code?

A picture:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-559#post-16806344


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## mab1376

gibosi said:


> Unfortunately, it's not a date code. "3002399" is IBM's internal inventory number for the 5998. And sometimes you will see just the last four digits, "2399". Is there anything else printed on the base that might be a date code?
> 
> A picture:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-559#post-16806344


There's a 703 on the other side.


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## gibosi

mab1376 said:


> There's a 703 on the other side.



1957 week 3.


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## mab1376

gibosi said:


> 1957 week 3.


Thanks! 

I have some Raytheon 6AS7G also from 1957, trying those out today just to compare. HE-500 needs a bit more on the volume knob, but otherwise fairly similar, but hard to A/B with a cooldown.

Specifically these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224679603146?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


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## gibosi

mab1376 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I have some Raytheon 6AS7G also from 1957, trying those out today just to compare. HE-500 needs a bit more on the volume knob, but otherwise fairly similar, but hard to A/B with a cooldown.
> 
> Specifically these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224679603146?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649



To the best of my knowledge, Raytheon never made the 6AS7G. I suspect that Raytheon sourced yours from RCA and simply relabeled them. And yes, the 5998 has a bit more gain than the 6AS7G, so comparing them at an equal volume can be difficult.

Nevertheless, enjoy!


----------



## mab1376

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, Raytheon never made the 6AS7G. I suspect that Raytheon sourced yours from RCA and simply relabeled them. And yes, the 5998 has a bit more gain than the 6AS7G, so comparing them at an equal volume can be difficult.
> 
> Nevertheless, enjoy!


Well, I'm not complaining, ones labeled RCA seem to be highly regarded!


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## HTSkywalker

mab1376 said:


> Well, I'm not complaining, ones labeled RCA seem to be highly regarded!


It is a good all rounder 👍


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## bpiotrow13

HTSkywalker said:


> It is a good all rounder 👍


Fully agree, nice warm (but not overely so) sound. I have two pairs (one is Tung sol branded) and both are a bit noisy. I wonder if this is a feature of RCA 6as7 or just my tubes? Do You have any dead silent RCA 6as7g?


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## HTSkywalker

bpiotrow13 said:


> Fully agree, nice warm (but not overely so) sound. I have two pairs (one is Tung sol branded) and both are a bit noisy. I wonder if this is a feature of RCA 6as7 or just my tubes? Do You have any dead silent RCA 6as7g?


I have an RCA branded one and it's totally silent and clean, am using it in a DarkVoice 336SE (220V version)


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## bpiotrow13

HTSkywalker said:


> I have an RCA branded one and it's totally silent and clean, am using it in a DarkVoice 336SE (220V version)


Well, it may be my tubes or the amp than, although it is silent with most of other tubes. Will try to clean the pins and I will see.


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## HTSkywalker

bpiotrow13 said:


> Well, it may be my tubes or the amp than, although it is silent with most of other tubes. Will try to clean the pins and I will see.


Clean and re-solder if the problem persists.


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## Thaddy

bpiotrow13 said:


> Fully agree, nice warm (but not overely so) sound. I have two pairs (one is Tung sol branded) and both are a bit noisy. I wonder if this is a feature of RCA 6as7 or just my tubes? Do You have any dead silent RCA 6as7g?


Three out of the four pairs of RCA 6AS7G's I have are dead silent.  One pair is Raytheon branded too.  Unfortunately the black plates, my most expensive pair, have a bit of noise but it's not noticeable while listening.  I think the most recent pair I picked up for $40 are my favorite.  NOS, 1951 date codes and very closely matched.  After a few hours of running them they've become dead silent.

I'm also running 1949 Gray Glass 6SN7's and an RCA 5U4G rectifier, which I'm sure contribute to the (lack of) noise.  Chasing tube noise can be difficult the more tubes your amp can take.  I've found a pretty good combination in these RCA's, and also use dampers and an iFi GND Defender.


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## hmscott (Mar 14, 2022)

bpiotrow13 said:


> Fully agree, nice warm (but not overely so) sound. I have two pairs (one is Tung sol branded) and both are a bit noisy. I wonder if this is a feature of RCA 6as7 or just my tubes? Do You have any dead silent RCA 6as7g?





bpiotrow13 said:


> Well, it may be my tubes or the amp than, although it is silent with most of other tubes. Will try to clean the pins and I will see.


Curious, I hope you don't mind my asking, what are the characteristics of the noise?  Is it a general raised noise floor?  Or crackling randomly?  And, is it more noticeable with no media playing?  Or, is it microphonic.  I had tubes that are all 3, all returned to seller.

What kind of headphones/IEMs are you listening with?

I find that my headphones don't usually pick up the HISS from used/wearing out tubes, only my IEM's show that background HISS, the more used the tube is the higher the level of background noise.

That is why I look for tubes that are measuring Newish if they are "used", as close to the ideal New values in the specifications, 2600uMhos for 6SN7, for the 6AS7G 7000uMhos - although I've seen testers say 5800uMhos is top for 6AS7G, which is it?

The distant thunder/crackling noise I've only heard on 2 tubes, a Melz '53 and a pair of Amperx Philips E180CC Pinched Waist - and those had a HISSY background, only on my IEMs.

Then there is the microphonics, which seems to be internal to the tube - cleaning contacts doesn't diminish it.  So I make sure with those tubes I use a soft headphone/IEM cable and don't play with the volume much.  I've returned all of these, fortunately, I pick sellers that accept returns.

So, how does your noisy 6AS7G sound?


----------



## bpiotrow13

hmscott said:


> Curious, I hope you don't mind my asking, what are the characteristics of the noise?


No, not at all It is a noise floor, one pair louder than the other but quite similar "type" if I may say so. It is not hearable when louder music is playing noticeable when silent and slow music. It is not hissing, more like a distant constant buzz. It is stable, not periodical. I bought from recognised sellers, most of my friends having RCA 6as7 says they are noisy.

I listen to ZMF Verite, they are not that sensitive, but I also used other headphones with the same result.


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## bpiotrow13

Thaddy said:


> Chasing tube noise can be difficult the more tubes your amp can take


Indeed. I also liked RCA 6as7g with Wa22 when I had it. It gives a bit more tube flavour.


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## hmscott (Mar 14, 2022)

bpiotrow13 said:


> No, not at all It is a noise floor, one pair louder than the other but quite similar "type" if I may say so. It is not hearable when louder music is playing noticeable when silent and slow music. It is not hissing, more like a distant constant buzz. It is stable, not periodical. I bought from recognised sellers, most of my friends having RCA 6as7 says they are noisy.
> 
> I listen to ZMF Verite, they are not that sensitive, but I also used other headphones with the same result.


Do you have any IEM's?  If not, just for fun, if you buy/borrow an inexpensive IEM with a couple or more BA's -  I have found they are more sensitive to the Noise/HISS than dynamic/planar headphones.  The IEM's with BA's pick up the tube noise as it ages, start at around 90-95% of "as new" mesaurements, or "Life" remaining.

Usually as a tube ages the noise floor goes up, I've found it is a good way to get a read on whether a tube is "used" or not, as typically most tubes don't exhibit noise/hiss until they have 90-95% life remaining - still pretty new, but that is about the point I start hearing an increasing background noise or HISS in my IEM's as they age further.

When testing "new" tubes it is shocking sometimes when I switch from my headphones where the tube sounds awesome - no noise is detectable - to an IEM where I hear a wall of HISS from tubes that are used well into their lifespan.  Those I return to the seller. 

I haven't heard HISS/Noise from new tubes - ones that measure new, 100%+/100%, so that is what I set my sights on finding.  The much less expensive tubes are "Used" and will HISS for IEM's, but maybe not for headphones, it depends how used up they are.

So far I haven't heard a tube noise/HISS in my headphones:  Ananda, Beyerdyamic DT770/880/990, Sennheiser 598cs/HD660s, a few others.

Have you tested that noisy tube to see what % Life it has remaining?


----------



## bpiotrow13

hmscott said:


> Do you have any IEM's?  If not, just for fun, if you buy/borrow an inexpensive IEM with a couple or more BA's -  I have found they are more sensitive to the Noise/HISS than dynamic/planar headphones.  The IEM's with BA's pick up the tube noise as it ages, start at around 90-95% of "as new" mesaurements, or "Life" remaining.
> 
> Usually as a tube ages the noise floor goes up, I've found it is a good way to get a read on whether a tube is "used" or not, as typically most tubes don't exhibit noise/hiss until they have 90-95% life remaining - still pretty new, but that is about the point I start hearing an increasing background noise or HISS in my IEM's as they age further.
> 
> ...


No i have not tested these tubes. I think i only have problems with RCA 6as7, just like many others i know. If the tubes are fine only up to 90 % of their measurement this is hard to believe. I have many tubes and only rca 6as7g are that noisy. In any case i prefer TS 5998 with proper driver tubes


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## bpiotrow13

Just to add. My experience is quite the opposite. NOS tubes are sometimes noisy and they may need some time to stop giving noises (hissing ect).


----------



## Dogmatrix

bpiotrow13 said:


> Just to add. My experience is quite the opposite. NOS tubes are sometimes noisy and they may need some time to stop giving noises (hissing ect).


I have same experience 
I have four pair RCA 6as7g and all have some degree of background noise 
For clarity it is only noticeable with my most sensitive headphone Focal clear , on Senn HD 800 or HiFiMan HE 500 they seem silent
Also all my RCA 6080 are silent even with CF Andromeda which I only tried out of curiosity but they are an excellent noise detector


----------



## bpiotrow13

Dogmatrix said:


> I have same experience
> I have four pair RCA 6as7g and all have some degree of background noise
> For clarity it is only noticeable with my most sensitive headphone Focal clear , on Senn HD 800 or HiFiMan HE 500 they seem silent
> Also all my RCA 6080 are silent even with CF Andromeda which I only tried out of curiosity but they are an excellent noise detector


I need to find another good pair than


----------



## hmscott (Mar 14, 2022)

bpiotrow13 said:


> No i have not tested these tubes. I think i only have problems with RCA 6as7, just like many others i know. If the tubes are fine only up to 90 % of their measurement this is hard to believe. I have many tubes and only rca 6as7g are that noisy. In any case i prefer TS 5998 with proper driver tubes


If the noise is only noticeable with sensitive headphones / IEMs then it's not such a problem, but for me I regularly listen with IEM's, so I need to search for tubes that are measuring as new, instead of going for the cheapest avaialble - unless the are new, of course 


bpiotrow13 said:


> Just to add. My experience is quite the opposite. NOS tubes are sometimes noisy and they may need some time to stop giving noises (hissing ect).


That isn't opposite, that is another observation. 

And, yes I have tubes that have background noise when I first turn them on, but after 10-15 minutes they quiet down, and they may continue to get quieter - but by then I'm well into the music or video and I cannot hear additional black background.  And, I usually keep the amp on for 6-8 hours, sometimes longer.

Another noise variation was exhibited by a Melz '53 that was quiet for the first couple of hours,and  then started making "distant thunder" sounds - at first I thought it was local ambient noise - but after  a while longer the crackling noise was loud enough that I turned down the music and heard it clearly.   That Melz was returned.  If I had dexterity I might have tried to reflow the solder, but the seller said I should return it for a refund, and he would find another '53 that didn't exhibit that noise.

I tried to list the situation around "not new" NOS tubes and not cover every instance of noise and it's own specifics.

I was only trying to suggest that there seems to be a general ignoring of testing of the tubes and focuing on the price, and IMHE I've found that within a specific tube make/model, you need to pay a little (or a lot) more for actually new testing tubes.  There are more cheap tubes that have enough hours on them to make HISS/background noise that comes through clearly in my IEM listening, but may not be audible in headphones.

Just an observation on my part, YMMV 


Dogmatrix said:


> I have same experience
> I have four pair RCA 6as7g and all have some degree of background noise
> For clarity it is only noticeable with my most sensitive headphone Focal clear , on Senn HD 800 or HiFiMan HE 500 they seem silent
> Also all my RCA 6080 are silent even with CF Andromeda which I only tried out of curiosity but they are an excellent noise detector


Yup, same here, my Sennheisers are silent, and if I switch to an IEM (with BA's/EST) I get a wall of HISS on the older / used up tubes.  For IEM listening I am focusing on using new 100+/100+ measuring tubes - and testing them when I receive them as I've found some "new" tubes that sound like old used up tubes.  Also that is why I only purchase tubes from sellers that take returns.  I have suggested to the sellers that send me HISSY tubes to test with an IEM before sending them to me, so far only 1 has said they would.

I think testing with an IEM is a good sanity check to make sure the tube tester is actually working 


bpiotrow13 said:


> I need to find another good pair than


Well, only if you can hear the noise, and it doesn't go away after a warm up time.  I might suggest looking for tube sellers that list their measurements and allow returns, as that has saved me hundreds of $USD


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## Dogmatrix

On noise generally

While it is true in engineering that noise is inversely proportional to Gm this only considers the tube in isolation

In practice noise is unlikely to be attributable  to a single source

So if noise is present on the driver side noise will be proportional to Gm


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## HTSkywalker

The thing is while 1 tube could be silent in a setup (amp, Headphone), it could be noisy in another. That's why even seller tested tubes unless tested on the exact setup, no guarantee they would be silent.


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## Dogmatrix

HTSkywalker said:


> The thing is while 1 tube could be silent in a setup (amp, Headphone), it could be noisy in another. That's why even seller tested tubes unless tested on the exact setup, no guarantee they would be silent.


That's very true

I have never sought a refund or returned a tube over noise or microphonic for that reason I consider these things as acceptable risk

Noise can usually be reduced through different combinations of tubes and headphones so it is not a huge issue in my world


----------



## HTSkywalker

Dogmatrix said:


> That's very true
> 
> I have never sought a refund or returned a tube over noise or microphonic for that reason I consider these things as acceptable risk
> 
> Noise can usually be reduced through different combinations of tubes and headphones so it is not a huge issue in my world


In fact am using a Raytheon 6SN7 tube in my DV which tested noiseless at the vendor while having a bit of humming in my DV but still one of the best sounding tubes I have and at the same time noiseless if am using it in a Yaqin tube buffer


----------



## Tom-s

Noise isn’t a build specification for most tube types out there. 

The application of a tube in a system has major influence on this behavior. It’s may be more dependent on application and build quality of the amplifier than it’s the tubes. 

When it comes to selling tubes there’s no possible way for the seller to test if the tube would be noisy in the buyers application. Or even if the buyers uses the correct tube type for his/her amplifier, that may be an ill advised “equivalent”.


----------



## hmscott (Mar 15, 2022)

Dogmatrix said:


> On noise generally
> 
> While it is true in engineering that noise is inversely proportional to Gm this only considers the tube in isolation
> 
> ...


When a new tube is swapped in and there is a very noticeable increase in noise - in this specific test monitoring for tube noise with sensitive IEM's to pick up the noise unheard in headphones, then that tube is the source of the increase in noise.

While it is true in considering the entire system in general that there can be many factors as the source or contributing source of noise, a single component can be isolated to be the single source of an increase in noise heard in a specific instance of swapping in a new tube into a system that is already been optimized for lowest noise.

I've optimized my specific set up of the Xduoo TA-26/TA-20 amplifiers to exhibit no noise at all - a black background of silence - even while listening with sensitive IEM's.  Overall noise reduction accomplished with AC line noise filtering, Mogami Quad shielded RCA cables, and adjusting the D90 DAC source input to optimally drive the TA-26.  There is no system noise that can be heard even in my most sensitive IEM's.

When I get a new tube and swap it into an amplifier exhibiting no noise in my IEMs, and the new tube introduces a clear increase in noise  - then the new tube can be isolated to be the single source of the increase in noise.  It may be due to the age of the tube, or the compatibility of the tube with the system, either way the tube change is the source of the increase in noise.

After testing many tubes - with the tube swap being the only change in the state of the amplifier - I have found that new tubes do not make noise, while used tubes show increasing noise corresponding with their decreasing "lifetime" measurement calculation.  The more a tube is used up, the more noise is heard.

These observations have been in my own limited testing over the last couple of years, and with only 12xx7 series and now 6AS7G/6SN7 tubes under test - with the last tube group sample size being very small and with only "new" measuring tubes.

So your own experience may vary, so far mine has not varied.  If I buy "used" tubes that "test strong", they HISS.  If I buy tubes that have measurements that are close to the "New" values specified by the tube specifications and the tester used to get the listed results, usually listed in the tube tester's "test card" or manual/specifications, then those tubes don't show any noise - unless it is microphonic, but that is a different/mechanically induced noise not related to age.

I've not run across new measuring tubes that HISS, and I've not run across used up tubes that don't HISS, it has been pretty consistent.  I've also verified this observation with long time tube sellers. The most honest one said "yup, that tube is "used up", when they get used up they HISS".


Dogmatrix said:


> That's very true
> 
> I have never sought a refund or returned a tube over noise or microphonic for that reason I consider these things as acceptable risk
> 
> Noise can usually be reduced through different combinations of tubes and headphones so it is not a huge issue in my world


Well, I can't afford to "eat" tubes I cannot use, so I am very clear with the seller up front that I use IEM's for about 1/2 of my listening time so it is very important that I receive tubes that are 100%+/100%+ testing, and if they can do a quick listening test with an IEM with a few BA's in it's driver complement, that will pre-screen the tubes so I don't need to return them.  I also make sure the seller accepts returns, and knows ahead of time I will return the tubes that exhibit HISS.


HTSkywalker said:


> The thing is while 1 tube could be silent in a setup (amp, Headphone), it could be noisy in another. That's why even seller tested tubes unless tested on the exact setup, no guarantee they would be silent.


While that very well may be possible, all of the tubes I own don't exhibit noise in my amplifier while listening with a sensitive IEM, while all the tubes I've returned do have HISS / high noise floors as heard while listening with a sensitive IEM - all that matters to me in deciding whether to keep a tube or not is that it doesn't have HISS or a "high noise floor".

I always make it very clear to the seller, and the ones that accept returns understand that not all tubes will work for all customers set ups, so that is why they have the return policy. To me it makes no sense to keep tubes I cannot use.


HTSkywalker said:


> In fact am using a Raytheon 6SN7 tube in my DV which tested noiseless at the vendor while having a bit of humming in my DV but still one of the best sounding tubes I have and at the same time noiseless if am using it in a Yaqin tube buffer


Yup, new 6SN7 tubes can exhibit HUM in the DV but I've not experienced it with the Xduoo TA-26.  I've heard that the "cure" with the DV is to run the 6SN7 alone in the AMP for up to a few days to get rid of or at least reduce the level of the "hum".  I think there is also a component / mod change that is supposed to solve the DV hum?

I'm not referring to "hum" when I am referring to the noise floor increase heard as tubes get "used up".  Also, the microphonic and static noise are also independent from the "HISS" or "background noise floor".


Tom-s said:


> Noise isn’t a build specification for most tube types out there.
> 
> The application of a tube in a system has major influence on this behavior. It’s may be more dependent on application and build quality of the amplifier than it’s the tubes.
> 
> When it comes to selling tubes there’s no possible way for the seller to test if the tube would be noisy in the buyers application. Or even if the buyers uses the correct tube type for his/her amplifier, that may be an ill advised “equivalent”.


Actually there is a way for the seller to test the tube in an Amplifier and listen with a sensitive IEM, and if they hear HISS or a "high noise floor", then that tube won't work for me, please don't send it to me.

But, there are "used up" tubes being sold for cheap, and as I've said, if you have headphones that don't show the HISS you won't notice it, and probably for a long time, but in sensitive IEMs and apparently "Focal Clears" and other headphones sensitive to "HISS".  With those "HISS frequency" sensitive headphones / IEMs, that noise floor is apparent earlier in the tube's life cycle.

There seems to be an "air of mystery" about tube noise and HISS, while when I talk with sellers with experience with headphones / IEM's capable of making "HISS" audible, they are very clear in their understanding of what is the cause of the audible HISS - used up tubes - and they know how to test for it.

A used up HISSY tube with a high noise floor is going to exhibit that in any amplifier and that HISS will be audible in any headphone / IEM capable of making that HISS audible.

And, that is why I pay extra for "NIB", as "new" measuring tubes, instead of hunting for the very lowest cost used tubes.  Of course, I do search for the lowest cost "NIB" as "new" measuring tubes - no need to pay exorbitant prices for the same result.


----------



## HTSkywalker

hmscott said:


> When a new tube is swapped in and there is a very noticeable increase in noise - in this specific test monitoring for tube noise with sensitive IEM's to pick up the noise unheard in headphones, then that tube is the source of the increase in noise.
> 
> While it is true in considering the entire system in general that there can be many factors as the source or contributing source of noise, a single component can be isolated to be the single source of an increase in noise heard in a specific instance of swapping in a new tube into a system that is already been optimized for lowest noise.
> 
> ...


Never thought a low impedance IEM would sound nice on a tube amp but will definitely try as I have 1 Brainwavz B400 and another Westone Pro X50.
As far as burning the 6SN7, am using it extensively without being disturbed by the hum in fact hoping t will burn and disappear in time.


----------



## Tom-s

hmscott said:


> When a new tube is swapped in and there is a very noticeable increase in noise - in this specific test monitoring for tube noise with sensitive IEM's to pick up the noise unheard in headphones, then that tube is the source of the increase in noise.
> 
> While it is true in considering the entire system in general that there can be many factors as the source or contributing source of noise, a single component can be isolated to be the single source of an increase in noise heard in a specific instance of swapping in a new tube into a system that is already been optimized for lowest noise.



It depends. A noise in an amplifier can be caused by many factors indeed. A single bad solder joint could lead up to noise heard at the output. The closer this element sits to the input, the more it is amplified by the system. It could be a part before the amp; like a DAC or cable connection that is introducing noise.
A few pages back in the 6SN7 thread you were interested in using the ECC32 in your amp. This tube is a bad choice of "equivalent" for your amplifier for various reasons. With your sensitivity to sensitivity to noise; noise being one of them.
The ECC32 has an amplification factor of 32; this is almost double the amplification factor of the 6SN7's; mu=17. This would make it perfectly possible to amplify noise, that starts somewhere before the tube and not in the tube, enough to be heard with your IEMs or headphones even when you won't hear it with any 6SN7.

Then there's airborn sources of interference with a tube. Some tubes a more prone to this than others. This is most obvious when using mesh plate driver tubes. Some tube are bothered by magnetic coupling as a result of bad transformers design (apart from vibration) or amplifier layout. Even the orientation of the tube socket -> the grid of the tube in relation to the magnetic spray field of a transformer; matters for optimal performance. 

Not to mention modern devices like dimmable light switches, power banks or WIFI routers in proximity. These all have their influence and can portray a variety of noises when using an extremely sensitive voice coil. A lot of those noises can be mistaken for a "high noise floor". Some tubes just amplify specific things better than others.



hmscott said:


> When I get a new tube and swap it into an amplifier exhibiting no noise in my IEMs, and the new tube introduces a clear increase in noise  - then the new tube can be isolated to be the single source of the increase in noise.  It may be due to the age of the tube, or the compatibility of the tube with the system, either way the tube change is the source of the increase in noise.


So this may be something to reconsider when swapping out tubes. For the safety of your IEM's also reconsider using them with the amp you mention. A start up or cap discharge voltage spike from an OTL amp could destroy your extremely sensitive IEM's.

Here's a sample ECC32 tube datasheet: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/154/e/ECC32.pdf

Here's a sample 6SN7GT tube datasheet: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6SN7GT.pdf

Here's a sample 6SN7GTA/B tube datasheet:  http://www.radiostation.ru/tubes/6SN7.pdf


As stated before. Noise isn't a build specification for many tubes; as per the datasheets above. Even when intended for AF amplification. Consider the sensitivity of your IEM's is far above the standard for speakers back in that day and age. NOS/NIB tubes can make just as much noise as any used one. A used tube can be just as silent as a NOS/NIB one. Noise isn't a measurement for the amount of life left in a tube or the amount of use it had. It may make it unusable in a specific application; that's true.


hmscott said:


> *After testing many tubes *- with the tube swap being the only change in the state of the amplifier - I have found that new tubes do not make noise, while used tubes show increasing noise corresponding with their decreasing "lifetime" measurement calculation.  The more a tube is used up, the more noise is heard.
> 
> These observations have been *in my own limited testing* over the last couple of years, and with only 12xx7 series and now 6AS7G/6SN7 tubes under test - with the last tube group *sample size being very small *and with only "new" measuring tubes.


A small sample bias with a strong selection bias may easily lead to invalid conclusions.
As you've noticed.


hmscott said:


> all that matters to me in deciding whether to keep a tube or not is that it doesn't have HISS or a "high noise floor".



Hiss in the tubes mentioned is mostly related to the quality of it's heater; heater/cathode insulation; cathode. It is very much true the quality of these may degrade with use. And make a noise more apparent. Again; this noise wasn't a build specification. The Tung Sol 6SN7 datasheet above mentions the importance to keep the heater cathode potential as low as possible when it's not directly referred to the heater (preferably center tapped). This is an indication in the datasheet that the insulation could be of lesser quality. This would make these tubes more prone to hiss. With the later versions like; see GTA/GTB by example this H/C potential went up significantly.

This is where the specific applied situation comes in. The heater configuration of the amp the tube is used in matters for noise results. A tube thats noisy on a 0-6.3V AC heater connection could be perfectly silent with a center tapped AC heater or DC heater. Even adding a virtual heater center tap to refer the cathode to in your current amp could help the noise situation with some tubes that were noisy before.


hmscott said:


> Actually there is a way for the seller to test the tube in an Amplifier and listen with a sensitive IEM, and if they hear HISS or a "high noise floor", then that tube won't work for me, please don't send it to me.


A tube can be perfectly silent in one amp. And noisy in another. A seller will never know if a tube that's silent in his setup is silent in yours with no way to test it other than put it in your amp. Or the situation where the seller wrongly uses an IEM in his amp that's not designed for IEMs but for higher impedance (and lower sensitivity) headphones instead and finds a hissing sound every time.



hmscott said:


> There seems to be an *"air of mystery"* about tube noise and HISS, while when I talk with sellers with experience with headphones / IEM's capable of making "HISS" audible, they are very clear in their understanding of what is the cause of the audible HISS - used up tubes - and they know how to test for it.


Never heard of this "air of mystery". Tube datasheets are pretty specific on the build specifications of- and intended applications for a certain tube type.


*TL;DR -> *

Be careful not to portray a problem of your own. Your specific situation. As the responsibility of the seller.

I'd say it's naive to think that new tubes won't hiss. Or that a NOS tube that exhibits a hiss has been used. Or that hiss is any indicator of wear.

Tube datasheets exist to say what a tube does and how to use it.


----------



## hmscott

Thank you Tom, I appreciate your detailed answer


----------



## hmscott (Apr 7, 2022)

Has anyone any info on the make of these tubes? I found what history I did find that might be related very interesting:

5998 COPPIA-HEINTZ and KAUFMAN-GAMMATRON-a.)70-made in U.S.A.





I've been chasing down 5998 (and 2339) tubes on eBay without much success - timing is everything, except this listing, where I found it in time, but the seller wouldn't ship to the USA - and actually preferred only to ship within Italy, another tube lost... sigh.

_*The pair sold for only US $99.37...*_

But the interesting story is the history behind this tube's maker/alliance, at least for local San Francisco / Silicon Valley history - where I've lived since 1980 - so I was extra interested in buying this particualar pair.

Here is the summary of their history:  "Heintz and Kaufman's success in making vacuum tubes spawned the launch of Eitel-McCullough and ultimately the birth of Silicon Valley."

Heintz and Kaufman
This entry is dedicated to the Heintz and Kaufman manufacturing business.
https://ethw.org/Heintz_and_Kaufman

Has anyone seen tubes or listened to tubes made by this Heintz and Kaufman alliance?


----------



## gibosi

You have to go back to the 1930's, and before, to find Heintz and Kaufman manufactured vacuum tubes. By the time the 5998 was introduced HK simply procured tubes from various manufacturers, relabeled them and sold them. So the pictured tubes are likely Tung-Sol / Chatham 5998s. I seriously doubt that they are WE.


----------



## hmscott

gibosi said:


> You have to go back to the 1930's, and before, to find Heintz and Kaufman manufactured vacuum tubes. By the time the 5998 was introduced HK simply procured tubes from various manufacturers, relabeled them and sold them. So the pictured tubes are likely Tung-Sol / Chatham 5998s. I seriously doubt that they are WE.


Comparing the side view they do look like the Tung-Sol 5998 / 2339 images I've seen.

Those Heintz and Kaufman 5998's are the first I've seen of their label.

Thank you, that will help focus my search


----------



## gibosi

hmscott said:


> Comparing the side view they do look like the Tung-Sol 5998 / 2339 images I've seen.
> 
> Those Heintz and Kaufman 5998's are the first I've seen of their label.
> 
> Thank you, that will help focus my search



A little more information, that may or may not be useful. I often see Tung-Sol 6BX7 relabeled as HK.


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> One source notes that Sylvania used a five letter code - 2 letters followed by three underneath as seen on the GB 6080 tubes.
> This concerns the three letter code on the tube (not the two letter code):
> I have these notes re Sylvania date codes, but I cannot vouch for them. The later tubes may have a three letter date code - reading from left to right.
> First letter is the month, with A being January, B February and so on.
> ...


Since I wrote this some time back, I have also found another correlation of the dates on some Sylvania 1950's tubes. On the base there is usually a three symbol code , and then on the glass under the tube designation a seond set of three characters that are different.
Here is an example: On the base, printed vertically, it says 126 and on the glass K0M. 126 may be the 26th week 1951 (June '51). K0M: K = October. (A is January, B February and so on - skip I which could look like 1)
                 0 = 1950
                 M - don't know - maybe a factory code.
Possibly the manufacturing date was Oct 1950 and the shipping date June 1951.
Another tube has N6R on the base, and A6M on the glass. Using up 12 letters of the alphabet (and skipping I ) the second sequence of 12 months starts with N which then = January. N6 becomes January 1956. Voila! A6 on the glass is also January 1956 - this tube was shipped right after it was made.
This is all conjecture, but could possibly be a guide to understand the codes.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Since I wrote this some time back, I have also found another correlation of the dates on some Sylvania 1950's tubes. On the base there is usually a three symbol code , and then on the glass under the tube designation a seond set of three characters that are different.
> Here is an example: On the base, printed vertically, it says 126 and on the glass K0M. 126 may be the 26th week 1951 (June '51). K0M: K = October. (A is January, B February and so on - skip I which could look like 1)
> 0 = 1950
> M - don't know - maybe a factory code.
> ...



The date codes etched into the glass - letter, number, letter - were slowly phased out between 1955 and 1959. And as you surmise, the third letter indicates a factory. In your examples, M = Emporium, which was Sylvania's original tube plant, established in 1924. Unfortunately, I have no information regarding the base-code N6R.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> The date codes etched into the glass - letter, number, letter - were slowly phased out between 1955 and 1959. And as you surmise, the third letter indicates a factory. In your examples, M = Emporium, which was Sylvania's original tube plant, established in 1924. Unfortunately, I have no information regarding the base-code N6R.


How about R=Regular, meaning M = Emporium lol...


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> How about R=Regular, meaning M = Emporium lol...


Sylvania had 7 different tube plants in 1946, but there are about 15 different plant codes. And it appears that some of these codes do not correspond to actual plants. For example, Y = tubes sourced from other domestic producers, such as RCA and GE.

And R = unknown. Some think it was used to indicate tubes where the originating plant ID had been lost. But probably not "regular" lol


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Sylvania had 7 different tube plants in 1946, but there are about 15 different plant codes. And it appears that some of these codes do not correspond to actual plants. For example, Y = tubes sourced from other domestic producers, such as RCA and GE.
> 
> And R = unknown. Some think it was used to indicate tubes where the originating plant ID had been lost. But probably not "regular" lol


The tube has N6R on the base, and A6M on the glass. M is Emporium, PA according to what you wrote above. I think Sylvania had a cavalier attitude to codes - I have seen Sylvania tubes with the code XYZ.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> The tube has N6R on the base, and A6M on the glass. M is Emporium, PA according to what you wrote above. I think Sylvania had a cavalier attitude to codes - I have seen Sylvania tubes with the code XYZ.



Fortunately the etched glass scheme stayed constant until the mid to late 1950's. And I don't own any of the later tubes, so no problem for me. lol 

Unfortunately, the ownership of Sylvania changed twice in the post-war period, and it appears that no internal records are known to have survived after each transition. As a result there were several schemes used for the letters printed on the base, including all capital letters, lower case and italicized lower case, and not all of these schemes are understood well. And it's not even clear what they indicate. In some instances, the codes seem to provide warranty information. And in others, perhaps these codes represent batches of tubes which would allow the company to identify certain manufacturing details more precisely than with a week / month / year scheme.

Anyway, it's quite the mystery! Have fun!


----------



## attmci

Glad to see my old friends are still collecting tubes and contribute to push the price higher, JK.


----------



## gibosi

Yes, I'm still collecting tubes, but I only grab the cheap ones! lol


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Yes, I'm still collecting tubes, but I only grab the cheap ones! lol


Same here, $8 is the limit, unless...


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> Same here, $8 is the limit *for shipping*, unless...


FTFY.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> FTFY.


OK - the last tube I bought a week ago cost $10, and I acknowledge that shipping has gone up a lot, especially from foreign countries.


----------



## jonathan c

mordy said:


> OK - the last tube I bought a week ago cost $10, and I acknowledge that shipping has gone up a lot, especially from foreign countries _such as NC._


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## maxpudding (Apr 10, 2022)

Glad I'm not the only one...who imposes a limit on tube prices


----------



## HTSkywalker

mordy said:


> Same here, $8 is the limit, unless...


The problem is most tubes we look for fall under the "unless"  category 😜😜


----------



## mordy

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


Didn't buy from NC but I did buy from BC - British Columbia. It was refreshing to get a neatly handwritten invoice - like in the old days. Remember carbon paper?


----------



## Galapac

mordy said:


> Remember carbon paper?


You reminded me of the spirit duplicators we used to have in school with the purple ink.
I can still smell that aroma of the freshly printed pages…


----------



## hmscott (Apr 11, 2022)

Found some 6080's, a Raytheon CK-6080WB - "Tested by Bendix":





And, a few "FAA-6080WA" labeled - this is the first I've heard of the FAA prefix.. could they have been made for the "FAA"?


----------



## mordy

hmscott said:


> Found some 6080's, a Raytheon CK-6080WB - "Tested by Bendix":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The 6080WB are graphite plate Bendix tubes relabeled Raytheon. I have a couple and they are excellent tubes.
Hard to see in the picture, but the bottom left tube looks like regular plates and not graphite plates.
FAA - could it mean Federal Aviation Administration? There are indications that these tubes were intended for ballistic missiles.


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> The 6080WB are graphite plate Bendix tubes relabeled Raytheon. I have a couple and they are excellent tubes.
> Hard to see in the picture, but the bottom left tube looks like regular plates and not graphite plates.
> FAA - could it mean Federal Aviation Administration? There are indications that these tubes were intended for ballistic missiles.


Take a look at this spec sheet - shock resistance 450 G, maximum altitude 60,000 feet:
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/138/6/6080WB.pdf


----------



## Galapac

mordy said:


> Take a look at this spec sheet - shock resistance 450 G, maximum altitude 60,000 feet:
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/138/6/6080WB.pdf


That is good to know in case you are listening to your amp with these tubes dive bombing in your jet.   
Crazy specs.


----------



## pravous

The 6080wb’s big brother the 7802wb.  Built like a tank.


----------



## jonathan c

Galapac said:


> That is good to know in case you are listening to your amp with these tubes dive bombing in your jet.
> Crazy specs.


“Tube-a, tube-a, tube-a !”…💥🔥…


----------



## mordy

pravous said:


> The 6080wb’s big brother the 7802wb.  Built like a tank.


How about the BIG BIG brother?



Cetron 6336B: 5A - can take the place of two or three 6080 tubes.
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/077/6/6336B.pdf

However, it seems to me that the 7802 is the little brother to the 6080, because the 7802 only draws 0.5A. The 6080 draws 2.5A, and the 6336 4.75A - 5A.

The main thing to remember with the 6336 tubes is to be careful not to touch them - they get really hot...


----------



## Galapac

mordy said:


> How about the BIG BIG brother?
> 
> Cetron 6336B: 5A - can take the place of two or three 6080 tubes.
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/077/6/6336B.pdf
> ...


Your right about that, I have the 6336A version, like steak on a grill sizzle hot.

The only other tube that has bit me was a Svetlana Winged ==C== EL34, for some reason those tubes got extremely burn your skin hot too.
I was checking the back of my amp to make sure my transformers were not getting too hot and brushed up against the EL34 and BAM!... Emeril sizzle.


----------



## mordy

Galapac said:


> Your right about that, I have the 6336A version, like steak on a grill sizzle hot.
> 
> The only other tube that has bit me was a Svetlana Winged ==C== EL34, for some reason those tubes got extremely burn your skin hot too.
> I was checking the back of my amp to make sure my transformers were not getting too hot and brushed up against the EL34 and BAM!... Emeril sizzle.


Yeah - had the same experience. Apparently my reflexes are good, because I pulled out my arm so quickly that I broke a guide pin on a tube and smashed one of my cooling fans.
The good thing is that these things only happen once…
Anyhow, the tube was still usable, and the fan was scavenged from an old PC so no big loss, and the burn healed up after a while.
Just another day in a tube roller’s life…


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> How about the BIG BIG brother?
> 
> Cetron 6336B: 5A - can take the place of two or three 6080 tubes.
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/077/6/6336B.pdf
> ...



The Radiomuseum site is incorrect. The major difference between the 6080 and the 7802 is the amplification factor, 2 for the 6080 and 9 for the 7802.

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/6080.pdf

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/077/7/7802WB.pdf


----------



## pravous

Even bigger is the transcondance.  Max 8200 for the 6080, 18k ish for the 7802.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> The Radiomuseum site is incorrect. The major difference between the 6080 and the 7802 is the amplification factor, 2 for the 6080 and 9 for the 7802.
> 
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/6080.pdf
> 
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/077/7/7802WB.pdf


Thanks for that information - usually I find the Radiomuseum reliable.
So basically the same relationship between 6080 and 7802 as between 6336 and 6528 that have the same current draw but their amplification factors differ in the same way?
If an amplifier has been designed for low amplification (2) power tubes, my personal experience has been that power tubes with higher amplification (9) will increase and amplify noise in the driver tubes. The volume also increases.
However, I have not been able to find out how the multiplication factor is affected by having 4 or 6 power tubes.
Does it remain the same as for one pair, or is it being lowered by multiple pairs?


----------



## GrindingThud

pravous said:


> The 6080wb’s big brother the 7802wb.  Built like a tank.


I love my 7802s… 🥰


----------



## Thaddy

7802's are a safe replacement for the 6080/6AS7G?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Thanks for that information - usually I find the Radiomuseum reliable.
> So basically the same relationship between 6080 and 7802 as between 6336 and 6528 that have the same current draw but their amplification factors differ in the same way?
> If an amplifier has been designed for low amplification (2) power tubes, my personal experience has been that power tubes with higher amplification (9) will increase and amplify noise in the driver tubes. The volume also increases.
> However, I have not been able to find out how the multiplication factor is affected by having 4 or 6 power tubes.
> Does it remain the same as for one pair, or is it being lowered by multiple pairs?



I believe that when they are run in parallel, the AF remains the same. So running the 7802 would be similar to running four or six 6BX7, with an AF of 10. But don't quote me on this. lol


----------



## gibosi

Thaddy said:


> 7802's are a safe replacement for the 6080/6AS7G?



Yes, it is safe. But depending on how your amp is configured, it might be a little louder.

The big problem is these tubes are very rare. So good luck on finding a pair!

PS: If someone manages to find a bunch of these, please let me know.


----------



## Thaddy

gibosi said:


> Yes, it is safe. But depending on how your amp is configured, it might be a little louder.
> 
> The big problem is these tubes are very rare. So good luck on finding a pair!
> 
> PS: If someone manages to find a bunch of these, please let me know.


I quick Google search returns nothing!  I'm very intrigued though, may have to search some out to try in my WA22.


----------



## Monsterzero

gibosi said:


> The big problem is these tubes are very rare. So good luck on finding a pair!


Lord, no truer words have ever been spoken!


----------



## Monsterzero (Apr 11, 2022)

Thaddy said:


> I quick Google search returns nothing!  I'm very intrigued though, may have to search some out to try in my WA22.







Joking aside, Ive had an active 7802 search on eBay going for over 5 years. In that time exactly one has turned up, which does me no good. Further ive called every tube dealer known to man. None have them, and in fact one of them even doubted the existence of a 7802.


----------



## Thaddy

Well then.


----------



## cddc (Apr 11, 2022)

The 7802 tubes are indeed hen's teeth. There was some discussion on them many years ago on the Crack forum, unfortunately I wasn't so much into tube rolling at that time and didn't grab one. Nowadays they just disappeared from the market.

However, I don't lose sleep on that. I'm a firm believer of tube internal structures. The only two 7802 tube types that I've seen so far both look exactly the same as 6080 tubes - one looks exactly the same as Tung Sol 6080, and the other looks exactly the same as Bendix 6080.

So I highly doubt that they are just renamed 6080 tubes for some unknown reasons. There is only one person here on the forum who can verify it for us...lol

@L0rdGwyn , if you like, you can put your 7802 tubes into your tube tracer, and measure their mutual conductances using the 6080 settings, and see if you get the same mutual conductances as 6080 tubes. The higher mutual conductance on 7802's datasheet might be caused by higher plate/grid voltages that were used in their measurements, but if we use the standard 6080 plate/grid voltages, we might just get the standard 6080 mutual conductances from the 7802 tubes as well.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Here is my stash.



@cddc I can tell you confidently that they have a higher gm than 6080s, it can be seen in the datasheet operating curves, but if you'd like I'm happy to measure them still.   The construction difference from a 6080 is a much finer spacing of the grid wiring.  It is also heard in their sound, a step further in the direction one takes going from a 6AS7G/6080 to a 5998.  Higher gm makes for a better cathode follower, which is how these tubes are wired in most OTL circuits.


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here is my stash.
> 
> 
> 
> @cddc I can tell you confidently that they have a higher gm than 6080s, it can be seen in the datasheet operating curves, but if you'd like I'm happy to measure them still.   The construction difference from a 6080 is a much finer spacing of the grid wiring.  It is also heard in their sound, a step further in the direction one takes going from a 6AS7G/6080 to a 5998.  Higher gm makes for a better cathode follower, which is how these tubes are wired in most OTL circuits.



Wow, can't believe you've collected so many 7802 tubes, great job! No wonder @Monsterzero wanted to smack you...lol

It's still kind of difficult for me to tell them apart from the regular Tung Sol 6080 and Bendix 6080 tubes from those 7802 pics. Yeah, if you could take a measurement on them, we'd appreciate it!


----------



## bcowen

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here is my stash.
> 
> 
> 
> @cddc I can tell you confidently that they have a higher gm than 6080s, it can be seen in the datasheet operating curves, but if you'd like I'm happy to measure them still.   The construction difference from a 6080 is a much finer spacing of the grid wiring.  It is also heard in their sound, a step further in the direction one takes going from a 6AS7G/6080 to a 5998.  Higher gm makes for a better cathode follower, which is how these tubes are wired in most OTL circuits.


You _woul_d have to have those rare birds lined up like bowling pins.  I'm having a hard time un-envisioning that.  Need liquor.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

mordy said:


> How about the BIG BIG brother?
> 
> Cetron 6336B: 5A - can take the place of two or three 6080 tubes.
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/077/6/6336B.pdf
> ...



The really big brother is the 6528 at nearly double the transconductance of the 7802!





mordy said:


> Thanks for that information - usually I find the Radiomuseum reliable.
> So basically the same relationship between 6080 and 7802 as between 6336 and 6528 that have the same current draw but their amplification factors differ in the same way?
> If an amplifier has been designed for low amplification (2) power tubes, my personal experience has been that power tubes with higher amplification (9) will increase and amplify noise in the driver tubes. The volume also increases.
> However, I have not been able to find out how the multiplication factor is affected by having 4 or 6 power tubes.
> Does it remain the same as for one pair, or is it being lowered by multiple pairs?



Tubes in parallel will have the same voltage gain, however their current gain is doubled.  Another way to say that is the output impedance will be cut in half.

Using higher gain tubes will increase the volume, but it will also increase the noise floor.  There is such thing as using too much gain in an amplifier, it should be enough to reach peak power output in the output stage, but not excessive to the point where the noise floor is audible and you can barely turn the volume knob before reaching deafening volumes.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

bcowen said:


> You _woul_d have to have those rare birds lined up like bowling pins.  I'm having a hard time un-envisioning that.  Need liquor.



This is where I store them, just like  this, sitting on the dining room table ready for a cat to come crashing into them like a bowling ball.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> Wow, can't believe you've collected so many 7802 tubes, great job! No wonder @Monsterzero wanted to smack you...lol
> 
> It's still kind of difficult for me to tell them apart from the regular Tung Sol 6080 and Bendix 6080 tubes from those 7802 pics. Yeah, if you could take a measurement on them, we'd appreciate it!



Sure thing, coming right up.  You won't be able to tell them apart without looking at the grids, that is the only notable difference in terms of construction.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

Here are the operating curves for 1/2 of a 7802.

There is no specified operating point in the datasheet, so I just chose a high gm point from the curves, 100Va / 100mA Ia / -5Vg, measured transconductance was 18,500 micromhos.


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> Here are the operating curves for 1/2 of a 7802.
> 
> There is no specified operating point in the datasheet, so I just chose a high gm point from the curves, 100Va / 100mA Ia / -5Vg, measured transconductance was 18,500 micromhos.




You can just use the 6080 operating point (100V on the plate and -30V on the grid) and take a quick test, no need to trace the whole curves (kinda too lazy to calc gm from them).


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Apr 11, 2022)

cddc said:


> You can just use the 6080 operating point (100V on the plate and -30V on the grid) and take a quick test, no need to trace the whole curves (kinda too lazy to calc gm from them).



Well you can't use the grid voltage of a 6080, they have different needs from a biasing standpoint.

The 18,500 micromhos measurement was at 100V / 100mA, which corresponds to a gm of 6,500 micromhos in the Philips 6080 datasheet.


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> Well you can't use the grid voltage of a 6080, they have different needs from a biasing standpoint.
> 
> The 18,500 micromhos measurement was at 100V / 100mA, which corresponds to a gm of 6,500 micromhos in the Philips 6080 datasheet.




I think 7802's mutual conductance of 18,500 micromhos is coming from the -5V grid voltage that you used, which is too high compared to 6080's -30V grid voltage.

I'm pretty sure you can test 7802 using 6080's operating point, as they can work in the same OTL amps.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> I think 7802's mutual conductance of 18,500 micromhos is coming from the -5V grid voltage that you used, which is too high compared to 6080's -30V grid voltage.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you can test 7802 using 6080's operating point, as they can work in the same OTL amps.



The reason the grid voltage differs so greatly to achieve a similar operating point is because of the large difference in transconductance between the two tubes.  In a cathode follower OTL, the grid-to-cathode voltage will self adjust when you swap power tubes.  At 100Va / -30Vg for the 7802, the tube is in cutoff, meaning current is zero.


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> The reason the grid voltage differs so greatly to achieve a similar operating point is because of the large difference in transconductance between the two tubes.  In a cathode follower OTL, the grid-to-cathode voltage will self adjust when you swap power tubes.  At 100Va / -30Vg for the 7802, the tube is in cutoff, meaning current is zero.




I'm not too sure from the above graph, maybe we need to zoom in a little bit to see the plate current under 100V Va and -30V Vg...just too much trouble reading from the graph.

I think you eTracer should have a standard testing configuration/profile for 6080 tubes, as 6080 is a common tube type to test. Just load up the 6080 testing configuration / profile into your eTracer, and run a quick scan on the 7802 to see how Gm is measured under 6080's configuration.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> I'm not too sure from the above graph, maybe we need to zoom in a little bit to see the plate current under 100V Va and -30V Vg...just too much trouble reading from the graph.
> 
> I think you eTracer should have a standard testing configuration/profile for 6080 tubes, as 6080 is a common tube type to test. Just load up the 6080 testing configuration / profile into your eTracer, and run a quick scan on the 7802 to see how Gm is measured under 6080's configuration.



The 7802 is definitely in cutoff on the graph with -30V on the grid and 100V plate-to-cathode, there is no mistaking it.  The 6080 does have a standard testing profile, but as I said, the 7802 cannot be tested at the same grid voltage for comparison.  At similar plate voltages and currents, with different grid voltages, the gm of the 7802 is roughly three times that of a 6080.  This is how the tubes will operate in a real circuit so it's the best way to compare their gm.


----------



## hmscott (Apr 13, 2022)

The FAA-6080WA tubes arrived yesterday, and none have graphite plates, but I expected that - the CK-6080WB is still in transit, and I also think that one won't have graphite plates.  In one photo the plate looks like it has a different coating, but it also doesn't have the same smooth sandpaper look of the Bendix Graphite Plates.

I did have a bit of a jumping scare while testing the 3 new tubes, with 2 of the 3 FAA-6080WA's - apparently if you are a millimeter off in seating them - they can pull an arc or something like that - I got a big pop in the headphones when powering them on the first time.  If I more carefully seat them there is no turn on pop.

That was the first time I've experienced that feeling since around 1971 when operating old WWII equipment in Jr. High Radio Club.  I discovered rather abruptly that one of the restored Radio's had a voltage drop between the front panel and the chassis - there were two panels sandwiched to make the front panel and the voltage drop could be measured between those 2 plates - as I recall it was between 100v-300v.

By charging up large capacitors (metal cased, doubled fisted size, about 450v rated) from that voltage drop across that panel I could then discharge them on a steel support pole outside the door of the Radio Club rooms, creating an extremely large BANG!! that echoed out all up and down the corridors of the school - occasionally teachers would come out looking for the cause, and finding it was the Radio boys "working" on Radios, asked us nicely to please stop doing that during Class hours.

That steel post had the pock marks from many years of discharging caps on it, a Club tradition.

Restoring old WWII tube sets was the best fun


----------



## mordy

hmscott said:


> The FAA-6080WA tubes arrived yesterday, and none have graphite plates, but I expected that - the CK-6080WB is still in transit, and I also think that one won't have graphite plates.  In one photo is looks like a different coating, but not the same smooth sandpaper look of the Bendix Graphite Plates.
> 
> I did have a bit of a jumping scare while testing the 3 new tubes, with 2 of the 3 FAA-6080WA's - apparently if you are a millimeter off in seating them - they can pull an arc or something like that - I got a big pop in the headphones when powering them on the first time.  If I more carefully seat them there is no turn on pop.
> 
> ...


It has been stated before, but IMHO it is very important to first plug in an old headset that you are not worried about whenever you test new tubes. You never know when even a perfectly testing old tube decides to arc or short out, and the drivers for your good headphones usually are expensive to replace.
I have an old $13 Sennheiser HD201 set that I use for this purpose. Usually the loud pops/explosions happen at the beginning of using a new acquisition.


----------



## hmscott (Apr 13, 2022)

mordy said:


> It has been stated before, but IMHO it is very important to first plug in an old headset that you are not worried about whenever you test new tubes. You never know when even a perfectly testing old tube decides to arc or short out, and the drivers for your good headphones usually are expensive to replace.
> I have an old $13 Sennheiser HD201 set that I use for this purpose. Usually the loud pops/explosions happen at the beginning of using a new acquisition.


That is great advice in general, always test new/unknown components with your least valuable equipment... unfortunately I've only got one Xduoo TA-26/TA-20 so if a new tube kills my amp, I'll be ordering a 2nd amp + sending the dead one back to Xduoo for repair.  I am far more concerned about damaging my amp when testing new tubes.

I don't really have any disposable headphones, I'd miss any of them if killed by a new component.  I use a cheap KZ IEM which I can hear plainly without wearing it, and hang it off of the XLR headphone jack on the TA-20, handy for both testing new tubes, and burning-in new tubes with a load, and I can muffle the IEM much easier than a full headphone.


Spoiler: My Lived in setup - with KZ hanging from TA-20 XLR + 6.35mm plug at the ready



My Sennheiser HD660s stock 6.35mm cable + 3.5mm tail are plugged into my FiiO M15 off camera...I feed both the TA-20 and TA-26 from the Topping D90 simultaneously so I can listen on one while doing burn-in of a new component on the other.  The A90 is in a supporting role, physically holding up my TA-20 - the A90 isn't even plugged in to AC any longer...





 I'll eventually invest in a tube tester - any suggestions for a reasonably priced hobbyist tube tester?


----------



## hmscott (Apr 13, 2022)

Well, the first 2 FAA-6080WB tubes worked great, the 2nd one had a low buzzing hum, so I pulled it out - and the center guide post stayed in the socket...it must have been broken before I put it in - apparently I was lulled into complacency after 2 years without such a problem that I didn't check it before plugging it in...I probably could have simply wiggled it to find it loose.

Also, I've seen tubes without the post before, but no glass coming out of the hole... this one has about a 1/4" of tube glass nipple coming down that was inside that guide post.

Does anyone have a fool-proof method for pulling out a broken center guide post?

There is a small nib of plastic above the hole, and room enough to get a tweezers blade into that guide hole and get a grip on the edge of the black plastic, but after trying 3 different insulated tweezers designed to have grip, reach and varying thicknesses of blades, none could get enough of a pull on it to get it to come out.

Do you recommend a particular tool sized to easily get a grip, traction, and pulling power for pulling out that center guide post without ruining the socket that I could order?  Thank you!


----------



## JazzVinyl

hmscott said:


> Well, the first 2 FAA-6080WB tubes worked great, the 2nd one had a low buzzing hum, so I pulled it out - and the center guide post stayed in the socket...it must have been broken before I put it in - apparently I was lulled into complacency after 2 years without such a problem that I didn't check it before plugging it in...I probably could have simply wiggled it to find it loose.
> 
> Also, I've seen tubes without the post before, but no glass coming out of the hole... this one has about a 1/4" of tube glass nipple coming down that was inside that guide post.
> 
> ...


Ouy!

Easiest if you can get to the other side of the socket, and push it out.


----------



## hmscott (Apr 13, 2022)

JazzVinyl said:


> Ouy!
> 
> Easiest if you can get to the other side of the socket, and push it out.


Yup, but this build has socket on PCB - not a point to point open socket build - that would be so much easier 

I'd need to desolder it to get it out that way. 

For now I need some kind of gripping tool to pull from the top...


----------



## bcowen

hmscott said:


> Well, the first 2 FAA-6080WB tubes worked great, the 2nd one had a low buzzing hum, so I pulled it out - and the center guide post stayed in the socket...it must have been broken before I put it in - apparently I was lulled into complacency after 2 years without such a problem that I didn't check it before plugging it in...I probably could have simply wiggled it to find it loose.
> 
> Also, I've seen tubes without the post before, but no glass coming out of the hole... this one has about a 1/4" of tube glass nipple coming down that was inside that guide post.
> 
> ...


Get a plastic or metal rod or stick of some sort that's about half the diameter of the guide pin, and some Krazy Glue. Glue the stick (carefully!) to the center of the guide post, give it plenty of time to thoroughly dry (even though Krazy Glue is supposed to be "instant" sometimes it's not), and then pull it straight up and out.


----------



## hmscott

bcowen said:


> Get a plastic or metal rod or stick of some sort that's about half the diameter of the guide pin, and some Krazy Glue. Glue the stick (carefully!) to the center of the guide post, give it plenty of time to thoroughly dry (even though Krazy Glue is supposed to be "instant" sometimes it's not), and then pull it straight up and out.


Thanks, that's a great idea.  I'll have to find a suitable candidate for the stick, I've got the glue...


----------



## JazzVinyl (Apr 13, 2022)

Use 2 pins (heat the ends of the pins with a match)  - use a Thimble and push the pin into the plastic.  Do the same 180 degrees out on the other side. Use needle nose pliers to pull up on the pins.  Patience is key...


----------



## hmscott (Apr 13, 2022)

JazzVinyl said:


> Use a 2 pins - use a Thimble and push the pin into the plastic.  Do the same 180 degrees out on the other side. Use needle nose pliers to pull up on the pins.  Patience is key...


That is a good idea too.  I don't have pins or thimble - but I could find them.  There isn't a lot of room in there to work around - but it is the widest hole since it was designed to hold the large 6AS7G tube.  Thank you!

I've seen some odd looking needle nose pliers before with what looks like tines to pull out against something - usually they are too large, I was hoping there was a small tool that would fit that post hole.

Perhaps I could fashion a paperclip into a half circle to slip under the socket and up into the socket post hole from below and push it up - as you suggested earlier 

I'm going to think about this for a bit, probably try it tomorrow after I've slept on it...

Does anyone else have a suggestion?


----------



## mordy

hmscott said:


> Well, the first 2 FAA-6080WB tubes worked great, the 2nd one had a low buzzing hum, so I pulled it out - and the center guide post stayed in the socket...it must have been broken before I put it in - apparently I was lulled into complacency after 2 years without such a problem that I didn't check it before plugging it in...I probably could have simply wiggled it to find it loose.
> 
> Also, I've seen tubes without the post before, but no glass coming out of the hole... this one has about a 1/4" of tube glass nipple coming down that was inside that guide post.
> 
> ...


I have had this problem a couple of times - not to worry!
If the guide pin is loose, you can disconnect the amp and turn it upside down and it will fall out. Many times the broken guide pin is loose; sometimes, if the tube is inserted the wrong way, it is wedged tight.
If it is stuck, I have had luck with a thin needle nose pliers - pushed in the tip and then spread it apart to pull out the piece. Sometimes, if the pin is in tight, you can use this method to move it a little until it becomes loose, and then shake it out.
Once the broken guide pin is out, you don't have to give up on the tube. There are commercial kits to attach a disc with a new guide pin. However, I found that you can always see where the notch was on the guide pin by looking at the base underneath. A little piece of colored tape on the base of the tube to mark the spot, and you don't need to make a mistake when inserting the tube. And I have also seen tubes where the bottom of the glass is visible as a little nib where the guide pin was.
https://tubedepot.com/products/octal-tube-keyway-replacement


----------



## hmscott (Apr 13, 2022)

mordy said:


> I have had this problem a couple of times - not to worry!
> If the guide pin is loose, you can disconnect the amp and turn it upside down and it will fall out. Many times the broken guide pin is loose; sometimes, if the tube is inserted the wrong way, it is wedged tight.
> If it is stuck, I have had luck with a thin needle nose pliers - pushed in the tip and then spread it apart to pull out the piece. Sometimes, if the pin is in tight, you can use this method to move it a little until it becomes loose, and then shake it out.
> Once the broken guide pin is out, you don't have to give up on the tube. There are commercial kits to attach a disc with a new guide pin. However, I found that you can always see where the notch was on the guide pin by looking at the base underneath. A little piece of colored tape on the base of the tube to mark the spot, and you don't need to make a mistake when inserting the tube. And I have also seen tubes where the bottom of the glass is visible as a little nib where the guide pin was.
> https://tubedepot.com/products/octal-tube-keyway-replacement


It might drop out, I didn't try that.  It seemed in there pretty tight though, I did try bumping it on the edges before trying to pull it out - it's not moving or loose, but I'll try turning it over and induce looseness...

That is what I thought would work too, a thin nose pliers... unfortunately my tool kit with various needle nose pliers is elsewhere, and the spare kits I have here - don't come with a pliers kit - only those 3 tweezers, and pry tools.  I may be able to use some straight rod / bit's to leverage it out from the inside of the post.  Even sticking in only one tine of a pliers with it's serrations on one side should have enough grip to pull it loose.

The tube only cost me $30, so I'm not out that much, but it might be worth the practice for when I have a more valuable tube to fix.  If the tube had worked ok - without the presistent buzzing - I might be more inclined to save it - but who knows - perhaps a better bottom fitted on will fix that buzzing problem too.

It looks easy enough 


Here is a view of the TA-26 PCB outside of the case, the raised socket on the front edge of the board is the 6SN7 socket, and the socket in the "middle" of the board is the 6AS7G socket, the one with the stuck center post:



Photo Courtesy of @Wiljen https://www.head-fi.org/threads/xduoo-amplifiers.682282/post-16524655

It might be the 2D perspective, but that socket doesn't look very deep and it doesn't look like the motherboard has a matching Hole in it to accomodate a long center post.  I wonder if that might be the source of the problems I've had with the first two FAA-6080WB tubes not seating well?  I wonder if a tall socket saver might be helpful in fitting 6080's properly before inserting in the TA-26 socket?


----------



## Dogmatrix

hmscott said:


> That is a good idea too.  I don't have pins or thimble - but I could find them.  There isn't a lot of room in there to work around - but it is the widest hole since it was designed to hold the large 6AS7G tube.  Thank you!
> 
> I've seen some odd looking needle nose pliers before with what looks like tines to pull out against something - usually they are too large, I was hoping there was a small tool that would fit that post hole.
> 
> ...


I would look for a screw that would fit tight , screw it in and pull the whole assembly out . Only issue would be if you screw it too hard it will expand the post and jam it in harder


----------



## hmscott

Dogmatrix said:


> I would look for a screw that would fit tight , screw it in and pull the whole assembly out . Only issue would be if you screw it too hard it will expand the post and jam it in harder


Yup, similar to the stick idea but with the biting of a wood screw - and yes I can imagine a too tight fit working against itself...I don't have any wood screws... there might be some laying around somewhere.

Likely as not a trip to HomeDepot will need to happen, unless it just drops out with a little nudging.

Was waiting for rubber insulated gloves, but I don't have the right size, so need to get those too.


----------



## JazzVinyl

hmscott said:


> It might drop out, I didn't try that.  It seemed in there pretty tight though, I did try bumping it on the edges before trying to pull it out - it's not moving or loose, but I'll try turning it over and induce looseness...
> 
> That is what I thought would work too, a thin nose pliers... unfortunately my tool kit with various needle nose pliers is elsewhere, and the spare kits I have here - don't come with a pliers kit - only those 3 tweezers, and pry tools.  I may be able to use some straight rod / bit's to leverage it out from the inside of the post.  Even sticking in only one tine of a pliers with it's serrations on one side should have enough grip to pull it loose.
> 
> ...



Looks like there is a hole at the bottom of the socket through the PC board.  So if you could get to the bottom, you could easily push it out with a small screwdriver.


----------



## hmscott (Apr 16, 2022)

Well, a combination of all of these suggestions is what worked 

I was able to use a stick - various tool probes - to pop up the post a bit, then I used a Boker Knife built-in "pliers-wrench" to grab the now accessible edge and... the edges kept breaking off...

So I went to find a "bit" that I could fit into the broken post without making the post lodge tighter, and the weight of the device pushed the broken post all the way to the bottom of the socket post hole...

Then I found a wide enough inverted hex socket that fit /grabbed the broken post from the inside, and twisted the post right then left, and that counter clockwise motion dislodged the broken post!

I then tipped the TA-26 over and tapped the bottom and the post popped out onto the table!
Thanks to all of you!!


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Get a plastic or metal rod or stick of some sort that's about half the diameter of the guide pin, and some Krazy Glue. Glue the stick (carefully!) to the center of the guide post, give it plenty of time to thoroughly dry (even though Krazy Glue is supposed to be "instant" sometimes it's not), and then pull it straight up and out.




This is the best method if we can't pull the broken guide pin out from above using needle nose pliers or can't push it out from below using screwdriver.


----------



## mordy

hmscott said:


> Well, a combination of all of these suggestions is what worked
> 
> I was able to use a stick - various tool probes - to pop up the post a bit, then I used a Boker Knife built-in "pliers-wrench" to grab the now accessible edge and... the edges kept breaking off...
> 
> ...


All is well that ends well! I know the crummy feeling when you can’t use your equipment and can’t listen…


----------



## hmscott (Apr 16, 2022)

mordy said:


> All is well that ends well! I know the crummy feeling when you can’t use your equipment and can’t listen…


Now, I am listening to one of the two remaining FAA-6080WA tubes + a 1944 RCA Grey VT-231, and the TA-26 is sounding great!!

Thank you to everyone for their help!


----------



## DivinesGaming

Just got a Bottlehead Crack used with a ton of tubes. Only used hybrid tube amps til today. Using a 6080WC my mind was blown. Loading in the coke bottle tung-sol 6sn7 and tung-sol 6sn7 GTB (russia)... hopefully I'll be blown away again any minute now.


----------



## HTSkywalker

DivinesGaming said:


> Just got a Bottlehead Crack used with a ton of tubes. Only used hybrid tube amps til today. Using a 6080WC my mind was blown. Loading in the coke bottle tung-sol 6sn7 and tung-sol 6sn7 GTB (russia)... hopefully I'll be blown away again any minute now.


Which headphones you  are using ?


----------



## HTSkywalker

DivinesGaming said:


> Just got a Bottlehead Crack used with a ton of tubes. Only used hybrid tube amps til today. Using a 6080WC my mind was blown. Loading in the coke bottle tung-sol 6sn7 and tung-sol 6sn7 GTB (russia)...* hopefully I'll be blown away again any minute now.*


Hope you will survive the blow  😜


----------



## DivinesGaming

HTSkywalker said:


> Hope you will survive the blow  😜


https://c.tenor.com/tvFWFDXRrmMAAAAd/blow-mind-mind-blown.gif ya pretty tired now from rocking out til 3am but absolutely next level audio experience tonight and not to sound cliche but "omg i think i found my end game" even though.... you know there's more levels to this after


----------



## HTSkywalker (Apr 21, 2022)

DivinesGaming said:


> https://c.tenor.com/tvFWFDXRrmMAAAAd/blow-mind-mind-blown.gif ya pretty tired now from rocking out til 3am but absolutely next level audio experience tonight and not to sound cliche but "omg i think i found my end game" even though.... you know there's more levels to this after


Sorry to break it out for you but this is a non-curable open end medical case we are all in, we always find a new reason to buy more gear  😁😁


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> Sorry to break it out for you but this am non-curable open end medical case we are all in, we always find a new reason to buy more gear  😁😁


Speak for yourself.  I quit buying tubes nearly 38 minutes ago.


----------



## DivinesGaming

HTSkywalker said:


> Which headphones you  are using ?


ZMF Verite Closed... I want to try some 6XX's soon. I'm not sure if planars can do what I heard yesterday, but I'm sold and hooked on high impedance dynamic drivers now


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> Speak for yourself.  I quit buying tubes nearly 38 minutes ago.


Reminds me of a classmate who said that it is very easy to quit smoking cigarettes- he has done it many times!


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Speak for yourself.  I quit buying tubes nearly 38 minutes ago.


You will have to be stripped from all your credit cards and exchange your "classical" singers and "romantic" songs taste you normally listen to with this 😜😜😜
Maybe the next step to recovery would be buying some Orange outfit instead of the black leather style 😆😆😆


----------



## HTSkywalker

DivinesGaming said:


> ZMF Verite Closed... I want to try some 6XX's soon. I'm not sure if planars can do what I heard yesterday, but I'm sold and hooked on high impedance dynamic drivers now


Remember Planars have nothing to do with tube amps, maybe you can get away with a hybrid amp.


----------



## HTSkywalker

mordy said:


> Reminds me of a classmate who said that it is very easy to quit smoking cigarettes- he has done it many times!


Yeah same like starting a diet on a Monday morning, a decision normally taken after a Sunday grill after a few packs of beer lol 😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Speak for yourself.  I quit buying tubes nearly 38 minutes ago.


And Son, you are un-curable. It's much easier when you admit it 😎


----------



## Shane D

I got a set of 6080's in for my LD MK9 today. They sound a bit quieter (Db's) than stock.


----------



## adeadcrab

Shane D said:


> I got a set of 6080's in for my LD MK9 today. They sound a bit quieter (Db's) than stock.


6080 can have quite low gain in my experience. Even with the Bendix 6080WB they are >5 dB quieter than other tubes like the Russian winged C 6N13S/6H13C.


----------



## jonathan c

HTSkywalker said:


> And Son, you are un-curable. It's much easier when you admit it 😎


Not Dad ?! 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Not Dad ?! 🤣🤣🤣


I see what you did there.  And I took notes.  My memory isn't what it used to be.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I see what you did there.  And I took notes.  My memory isn't what it _never _used to be.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


More notes.


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


The thing is @bcowen genuinely quits buying tubes, only to forget he did 38 minutes later. And this minutes count been shrinking with time  😜


----------



## HTSkywalker

jonathan c said:


> Not Dad ?! 🤣🤣🤣


You know it's Easter time and I like to be nice 😇😇
And Happy Easter to all although a bit late


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> I see what you did there.  And I took notes.  My memory isn't what it used to be.


I can't remember what my memory used to be.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> I can't remember what my memory used to be.


I can’t remember what you just said.  Let me scroll back up.  🤣


----------



## bcowen

HTSkywalker said:


> The thing is @bcowen genuinely quits buying tubes, only to forget he did 38 minutes later. And this minutes count been shrinking with time  😜


IIRC, it used to be 38 hours.  Or was that days? Damnit…..😄


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> IIRC, it used to be 38 hours.  Or was that days? Damnit…..😄


Ask "THE" wife, they tend to keep a precise record of such signs of their husband's lol 🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> I can't remember what my memory used to be.


I can’t remember what I forgot…🤔🤪…


----------



## DivinesGaming (Apr 23, 2022)

RME-ADI-2-Dac to Bottlehead Crack as a line-out, which device is better off having the volume on it lower than the other? I.e. Do you want to have your Amp turned down the most or the Dac/pre-amp turned down the most? Specifically when feeding to an OTL tube amp. I wonder if I'll get more tubeyness -at the same volume-, when the amp is turned down, and the dac is turned up, or vise versa?


----------



## Galapac

DivinesGaming said:


> RME-ADI-2-Dac to Bottlehead Crack as a line-out, which device is better off having the volume on it lower than the other? I.e. Do you want to have your Amp turned down the most or the Dac/pre-amp turned down the most? Specifically when feeding to an OTL tube amp. I wonder if I'll get more tubeyness -at the same volume-, when the amp is turned down, and the dac is turned up, or vise versa?


Rule of thumb is DAC/DAP all the way up, controlling your volume with the amp.
I however have always kept my amp about half way and control my volume with my DAC as it is more convenient given my setup.
To my ears I never noticed a difference either way.


----------



## Shane D

Any idea if these tubes run cooler than the 6080's?


----------



## Dogmatrix

DivinesGaming said:


> RME-ADI-2-Dac to Bottlehead Crack as a line-out, which device is better off having the volume on it lower than the other? I.e. Do you want to have your Amp turned down the most or the Dac/pre-amp turned down the most? Specifically when feeding to an OTL tube amp. I wonder if I'll get more tubeyness -at the same volume-, when the amp is turned down, and the dac is turned up, or vise versa?


The RME can output 4.6v at rca , that is way too hot for a Bottlehead 
For the Bottlehead around 2v is ideal 
So Ref lev of +7 Dbu and volume +1 , will give 1.9v


----------



## hmscott (Apr 24, 2022)

Shane D said:


> Any idea if these tubes run cooler than the 6080's?


Which tubes vs the 6080?

I've observed that as long as your ambient "wind" is low or nil I've observed that the large envelope 6AS7G step-sided tubes reach the same average temperature as the straight-sided 6AS7G, along with equivalent tubes *with the same heater current*.

Early on I measured the tube envelope temperatures on my TA-26 - step-sided 6AS7G vs straight-sided 6AS7G and both measured about the same after about an hour - I think it was 150F  - the TA-26 is off and I am leaving for a while - I'll test the 6080 temperature later and update.

I would have expected the larger envelope to be cooler, but after warm up they both heat up to about the same temperature due to low air currents at ambient in my room.  If there were a steady breeze I would think the larger cooling area of the full sized envelope would help it dissipate the same heat load quicker.

They all have about 2.5A Heater Current warming them up, and I think the internals are about the same sized, but less compact in the full sized envelope.

The Xduoo TA-26's transformer has a maximum rating of 5A for the whole system, so I cannot run those 5A Heater tubes like the 6336/6528, and I would assume those 5A heater current tubes would run a lot hotter with double the heater current!

In comparison the Xduoo TA-20 can run the higher current 0.3A E80CC/E180CC  vs  .150A 12xx7/ECCxx tubes, and the higher 300mA current heater E80CC/E180CC do run hotter than the "stock" 150mA 12AU7's.


----------



## Shane D

hmscott said:


> Which tubes vs the 6080?
> 
> I've observed that as long as your ambient "wind" is low or nil I've observed that the large envelope 6AS7G step-sided tubes reach the same average temperature as the straight-sided 6AS7G, along with equivalent tubes *with the same heater current*.
> 
> Early on I measured the tube envelope temperatures on my TA-26 - step-sided 6AS7G vs straight-sided 6AS7G and both measured about the same after about an hour - I think it was 150F  - the TA-26 is off and I am leaving for a while - I'll test the 6080 temperature later and update.


Excellent. Thank you.


----------



## mordy

hmscott said:


> ...
> 
> Which tubes vs the 6080?
> 
> ...


I haven't compared how hot different 6080 tubes get, but I can tell  that the 5A 6336/6528 tubes get really hot and you have to be very careful not to burn your fingers. However, I would not be surprised if different 6080/6AS7 tubes differ in how hot they run.
Another observation of mine that I have not had corroborated by others (yet): Very often a tube runs hotter when new and burning in, compared to after say 50-100 hours.


----------



## hmscott (Apr 24, 2022)

Shane D said:


> Excellent. Thank you.


The FAA-6080WA/TA-26 was on while I was gone, no music was playing, and the FAA-6080WA measured 126F when I got back (and turned off the high airflow filter behind the amp), increasing to 137.5F after 5 minutes of listening to music... 10 minutes - 140.3F... @ 30 minutes back down to 130F-136F....temperature is varying with the music.

132.9F before, 138.2F right after - It's Only Rock 'N' Roll But I Like It by The Rolling Stones on TIDAL

139.6F during MONEY by The Warning on TIDAL

Rock Gods - playlist by Tidal

Rock - Tidal Masters playlist

A Levoit LV-H134 is set up on the backside of the equipment - designed with 360' intakes, and it was on the highest fan/filter setting while I was gone, so the constant wind flow generated was high enough to keep the tubes running cooler than normal.  The Levoit LV-H134 is on the lowest/idle setting now, and runs that way 24/7. Normally there is a constant airflow over the tubes.

I'll swap in the 6AS7G straight-sided tube, and a couple of the RCA/Svetlana 6AS7G's to get another reading with the normal airflow.  I think I had the Levoit off while those were measured originally.

If you don't have constant airflow over your tubes the temperatures might be higher...YMMV 

_*Update: Swapped in the *_*Cetron 7236 - 145F, 144F, 142F - *_*ZZ Top + Jeff Beck*_ -* Video** +  **CBS-Hytron 5296** @ **131.9F on Mix*


----------



## cddc

There is no need to compare temperature on two tubes with the same specs. Both 6080 and 6AS7G draw 2.5A heater current, and they also have the same plate/grid voltage/current, so they must generate the same amount of heat from a scientific perspective.

If you measure some small difference, it must be caused by some other factors, such as kind of music that is playing  (bass heavy music normally consumes more energy), individual tube variations (e.g. small variation in heater resistance), environmental, etc. But in general 6080 and 6AS7G should generate the same amount of heat.

5998/421A is a different story, as they have different specs than 6080/6AS7G.

6336/6528 are too hot to use with their 5A heater, you can imagine how hot they will be in summer...you definitely need to consider whether you can stand a furnace on your desk in summer...lol


----------



## mordy (Apr 24, 2022)

cddc said:


> There is no need to compare temperature on two tubes with the same specs. Both 6080 and 6AS7G draw 2.5A heater current, and they also have the same plate/grid voltage/current, so they must generate the same amount of heat from a scientific perspective.
> 
> If you measure some small difference, it must be caused by some other factors, such as kind of music that is playing  (bass heavy music normally consumes more energy), individual tube variations (e.g. small variation in heater resistance), environmental, etc. But in general 6080 and 6AS7G should generate the same amount of heat.
> 
> ...


My amp can take up to four 6080/6AS7 or two 6336 tubes. In the summer I have no problems using such tubes with the A/C on.
I have an infrared thermometer so I could measure the temperature of different tubes. My gut feeling is that a graphite plate tube which is much heavier than a regular plate tube, is going to run at a different temperature than a regular plate tube of the same kind.
Took a look at the spec sheets now - A 6080 RCA has a maximum bulb temperature rating of 200C - see page 2:
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/6080.pdf
A Raytheon graphite plate 6080 has a maximum bulb temperature of 300C:
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/138/6/6080WB.pdf


----------



## mordy

Sent an updated post with spec sheets


----------



## cddc

mordy said:


> My amp can take up to four 6080/6AS7 or two 6336 tubes. In the summer I have no problems using such tubes with the A/C on.
> I have an infrared thermometer so I could measure the temperature of different tubes. My gut feeling is that a graphite plate tube which is much heavier than a regular plate tube, is going to run at a different temperature than a regular plate tube of the same kind.
> Took a look at the spec sheets now - A 6080 RCA has a maximum bulb temperature rating of 200C - see page 2:
> https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/6080.pdf
> ...



Max temperature only means the said tube can stand such temperature, so yeah, with stronger graphite plates Raytheon graphite plate 6080 can stand 100c more than RCA 6080 regular plates. But in actual circuits RCA regular plate 6080 and Raytheon graphite plate 6080 will consume the same amount of heater current (2.5A), and the same amount plate/grid current in the same circuit/amp, hence they will generate the same amount of heat. Max temp on the tube data sheet is only the max rating, it has nothing to do with actual/working heat generated. 

I don't put my faith on feeling or guts, I put my faith on science and data...


----------



## hmscott

cddc said:


> I don't put my faith on feeling or guts, I put my faith on science and data...*AND... ****Measurements***


FTFY -


----------



## mordy (Apr 24, 2022)

cddc said:


> Max temperature only means the said tube can stand such temperature, so yeah, with stronger graphite plates Raytheon graphite plate 6080 can stand 100c more than RCA 6080 regular plates. But in actual circuits RCA regular plate 6080 and Raytheon graphite plate 6080 will consume the same amount of heater current (2.5A), and the same amount plate/grid current in the same circuit/amp, hence they will generate the same amount of heat. Max temp on the tube data sheet is only the max rating, it has nothing to do with actual/working heat generated.
> 
> I don't put my faith on feeling or guts, I put my faith on science and data...


Let’s do a scientific test, but I need your help to set up the parameters. Burned in tubes, leave them on for one hour, playing music, no fans on, temperature measured at hottest spot in tube. OK? I can use one pair of Bendix graphite plate and a pair of Sylvania regular plates.


----------



## mordy

mordy said:


> Let’s do a scientific test, but I need your help to set up the parameters. Burned in tubes, leave them on for one hour, playing music, no fans on, temperature measured at hottest spot in tube. OK? I can use one pair of Bendix graphite plate and a pair of Sylvania regular plates.


Said and done. Put in a pair of Bendix graphite plate 6080 for an hour and measured the hotspot in the tube; then the same with a pair of Sylvania 6080. Driver tubes are a pair of Japanese NEC 6SN7GTB relabled Channel Master.
Played piano music; room temperature 25C.
I do want to point out that rarely do two tubes measure identical temperatures; in addition the temperature within the tube varies in different spots. The infrared thermometer has a little red dot where it hits the object and I wave it slowly back and forth for the highest reading which the thermometer locks on to.
Sylvania 6080 - the tubes are a little different but sound the same:




Bendix:   118/120C
Sylvania: 98/99C
Why they measure different when they both draw 2.5A I leave for others to figure out.


----------



## Shane D

mordy said:


> Said and done. Put in a pair of Bendix graphite plate 6080 for an hour and measured the hotspot in the tube; then the same with a pair of Sylvania 6080. Driver tubes are a pair of Japanese NEC 6SN7GTB relabled Channel Master.
> Played piano music; room temperature 25C.
> I do want to point out that rarely do two tubes measure identical temperatures; in addition the temperature within the tube varies in different spots. The infrared thermometer has a little red dot where it hits the object and I wave it slowly back and forth for the highest reading which the thermometer locks on to.
> Sylvania 6080 - the tubes are a little different but sound the same:
> ...


Don't have any 6AS7G's sitting around do you?


----------



## mordy

Shane D said:


> Don't have any 6AS7G's sitting around do you?


I do - what to you want me to measure? 6080 vs 6AS7G?


----------



## No Deal

mordy said:


> I have seen GEC 6AS7G rebranded as Haltron......


Are these the real deal?  Way overpriced?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254195578638?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## L0rdGwyn

No Deal said:


> Are these the real deal?  Way overpriced?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254195578638?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649



Those are Russian.


----------



## cddc

mordy said:


> Said and done. Put in a pair of Bendix graphite plate 6080 for an hour and measured the hotspot in the tube; then the same with a pair of Sylvania 6080. Driver tubes are a pair of Japanese NEC 6SN7GTB relabled Channel Master.
> Played piano music; room temperature 25C.
> I do want to point out that rarely do two tubes measure identical temperatures; in addition the temperature within the tube varies in different spots. The infrared thermometer has a little red dot where it hits the object and I wave it slowly back and forth for the highest reading which the thermometer locks on to.
> Sylvania 6080 - the tubes are a little different but sound the same:
> ...




Sorry, I don't argue with uneducated person, you win @mordy !


----------



## Shane D

mordy said:


> I do - what to you want me to measure? 6080 vs 6AS7G?


Yes please. That was the question I had asked earlier, "Is there a difference temperature wise?"


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Apr 24, 2022)

cddc said:


> Max temperature only means the said tube can stand such temperature, so yeah, with stronger graphite plates Raytheon graphite plate 6080 can stand 100c more than RCA 6080 regular plates. But in actual circuits RCA regular plate 6080 and Raytheon graphite plate 6080 will consume the same amount of heater current (2.5A), and the same amount plate/grid current in the same circuit/amp, hence they will generate the same amount of heat. Max temp on the tube data sheet is only the max rating, it has nothing to do with actual/working heat generated.
> 
> I don't put my faith on feeling or guts, I put my faith on science and data...





mordy said:


> Let’s do a scientific test, but I need your help to set up the parameters. Burned in tubes, leave them on for one hour, playing music, no fans on, temperature measured at hottest spot in tube. OK? I can use one pair of Bendix graphite plate and a pair of Sylvania regular plates.



Assuming the tubes measure roughly the same and will be at the same operating point in the same circuit - meaning the same plate-to-cathode voltages, grid-to-cathode voltages, and plate currents - the heaters and the plates will dissipate the same amount of power in two different models.

However, the plates have different material and physical construction, as such they are going to have different thermal resistance, °C/W, increase in material temperature for unit of power dissipated.

So the power dissipation is the same, but the temperature will different based on the thermal resistance of the internal structure.

Also, there is no "grid current", this is class A1, the grid is always negative relative to the cathode.  Looking into the grid from the previous stage will present an impedance in the tens of megaohms range, it won't draw any current.  The only current contributing to the increase in tube temperature will flow through the heaters and from plate to cathode.


----------



## mordy

No Deal said:


> Are these the real deal?  Way overpriced?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254195578638?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


The last picture shows the dual inverted saucer getters which means that they are Russian Svetlana tubes. Here is a link to one for sale now:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/194998609015?hash=item2d66d2a477:g:gnAAAOSwHc1iUswR
Overpriced? You bet! Maybe a 10th of the price for a pair.


----------



## bcowen

No Deal said:


> Are these the real deal?  Way overpriced?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254195578638?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


In addition to what @L0rdGwyn and @mordy already posted, the seller is 'wege_high_tubes'.  He has a lengthy reputation of pricing tubes at 5x - 10x the going market price.  He knows very well those are not Telefunkens, or he'd have them priced at $_4500_.  Best recommendation is to steer very clear of anything he's listing.


----------



## hmscott (Apr 24, 2022)

I saw those Halton's, and thanks to the previous detailed descriptions here I knew it was a Svetlana 

How about this one?  Did Telefunken actually make this 6080 in their Ulm plant under license from RCA or another manufacturer?  The seller goes into a discussion of the origin of this tube and others not made by Telefunken but instead rebranded by Telefunken, www-tubes.rs states that this 6080 was produced by Telefunken:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/253791647315

"Auction is for one (1 pcs) extremely rare genuine Telefunken 6080 / 6AS7 / 5998.
This tube is very scarce. You can find many other types rebranded Telefunken 6080 like General Electric, RTC France, Sylvania, ... All of them come in original Telefunken boxes.
Someone who is not deeply interested in tube production details for years could make mistake easily.
This one is made in Ulm tube plant and it's clearly different to fakes in many details. The most important details are unique Telefunken's thick ring getters, two of them.
The tube is tested with 100V on plates and -24V on grids. This tube tests 130/136 mA, very strong example, like NOS, with lot of life left.
Please pay attention that guiding pin is broken as it is shown on photos!"


"On eBay
If you buy directly, the prices are 12% lower and the items will be declared as “old radio parts”, low value, so you will need to pay just symbolic VAT and tax amount. Place your orders to nostubes@gmail.com please."

What I find most odd is that they blatantly go against eBay Policy of selling eBay listed items off-site, strange...
https://www.tubes.rs/ebay-listings/


----------



## cddc (Apr 25, 2022)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Assuming the tubes measure roughly the same and will be at the same operating point in the same circuit - meaning the same plate-to-cathode voltages, grid-to-cathode voltages, and plate currents - the heaters and the plates will dissipate the same amount of power in two different models.
> 
> However, the plates have different material and physical construction, as such they are going to have different thermal resistance, °C/W, increase in material temperature for unit of power dissipated.
> 
> ...




LG, I can't believe an educated person like you with a Dr. degree would argue something that is factual...you think I'm as gullible  as some uneducated person does...I'm so disappointed in you!

Okay, let's talk about thermal resistance and the law of conservation of energy!

So what is the thermal resistance that you're trying to base your argument on? It's an object's resistance to heat conductance. Yes, some materials conduct heat faster, some slower, just like the Raytheon graphite plate 6080 takes longer to warm up, and the regular plate 6080 warms up much faster. But have you considered the law of conservation of energy?!!!

As long as the same 2.5A heater current is drawn, and the same amount of plate current and grid current (yes, I intentionally list grid current here just in case someone will be nit-picky on the subject! I will elaborate later) are going through both the graphite-plate and regular-plate tubes, the same amount of total heat will be generated, which can be calculated by the following equations, Total power consumed = heater power consumption + plate power consumption + grid power consumption  = I_heater x V_heater + Ip x Vp + Ig x Vg. The 6 parameters on the right hand side of the equation will be the same for both Ray graphite-plate 6080 and regular-plate 6080, hence the total power consumed will be the same for both tubes ( and total heat generated = total power consumed - power consumed by the load on tube, will also be same since load will be the same)! Yes, Ray graphite-plate 6080 will reach normal thermal operating temperature slower than regular 6080 does because of its higher thermal resistance, but it will eventually get there (some folks say graphite-plate 6080 needs 10-30mins to warm up), and what's more important, the total heater generated by both 6080 tubes will be the SAME, that's defined by the equations I listed above and the law of conservation of energy.

Now, let me elaborate why I intentionally listed grid current there previously. Yes, most tubes run on negative grid voltage on their grids, hence their grid current will be close to 0, but let's not forget that some tubes do run on positive grid voltages, so there will be measurable grid current on them! And even under the negative grid voltage mode, some electrons will go astray and hit the grid by chance, hence will generate grid current theoretically (though this current is almost 0 and is negligible). So if I did not list grid current there, some guy will be nit-picky on it. And even I did include the grid current there, someone is still trying to be nit-picky on it


----------



## cddc

hmscott said:


> I saw those Halton's, and thanks to the previous detailed descriptions here I knew it was a Svetlana
> 
> How about this one?  Did Telefunken actually make this 6080 in their Ulm plant under license from RCA or another manufacturer?  The seller goes into a discussion of the origin of this tube and others not made by Telefunken but instead rebranded by Telefunken, www-tubes.rs states that this 6080 was produced by Telefunken:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/253791647315
> ...




This one is the real deal, it's indeed a genuine Telefunken 6080.

Telefunken did produce some 6080 tubes, but in very small quantity.


----------



## mordy

cddc said:


> This one is the real deal, it's indeed a genuine Telefunken 6080.
> 
> Telefunken did produce some 6080 tubes, but in very small quantity.


Looks like an honest seller - he also lists rebranded Telefunken 6080 tubes clearly as RCA made.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255313837773?hash=item3b71e3fecd:g:swsAAOSwoa1h1KMo



And here is another Telefunken branded GE tube:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264912109312?hash=item3dadfdff00:g:KZcAAOSwunJflVJc



The back of the tube has the telltale GE dots:



Perhaps the easiest way to tell real ones apart from fakes is to look for a double top mica:


----------



## Galapac (Apr 25, 2022)

cddc said:


> This one is the real deal, it's indeed a genuine Telefunken 6080.
> 
> Telefunken did produce some 6080 tubes, but in very small quantity.


Yes, you have to be careful buying Telefunken 6080s.
I bought some years ago and educated myself on what was genuine.

For example here is a bad fake:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255313837773?hash=item3b71e3fecd:g:swsAAOSwoa1h1KMo

Bad date code
6AS7W marking (really?)
no ”Made in Germany” marking
single top mica(Telefunkens have two)
new boxes
and worst of all GE markings to boot
Many took Thomson France 6080WA tubes and faked them to look like Telefunkens but the easiest give away is bad date codes or many tubes having the same date code since the forgers were lazy and didn’t bother to change the codes.


----------



## Galapac

mordy said:


> Looks like an honest seller - he also lists rebranded Telefunken 6080 tubes clearly as RCA made.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/255313837773?hash=item3b71e3fecd:g:swsAAOSwoa1h1KMo
> 
> And here is another Telefunken branded GE tube:
> ...


@mordy - You beat me to it by 1 minute, lol.


----------



## cddc

Galapac said:


> Yes, you have to be careful buying Telefunken 6080s.
> I bought some years ago and educated myself on what was genuine.
> 
> For example here is a bad fake:
> ...




Agree. Sorry for your bad experience. There are lots of fake Telefunken 6080 tubes out there, actually the ones listed out there currently are mostly fake, only a very few of them are genuine, just like the one asked.... Mostly they are just rebranded GE 6080s, and some rebranded RCA 6080s, of course most of the fake ones come with a shiny Telefunken box which confused lots of folks, sadly...


----------



## Tom-s (Apr 25, 2022)

L0rdGwyn said:


> Assuming the tubes measure roughly the same and will be at the same operating point in the same circuit - meaning the same plate-to-cathode voltages, grid-to-cathode voltages, and plate currents - the heaters and the plates will dissipate the same amount of power in two different models.
> 
> However, the plates have different material and physical construction, as such they are going to have different thermal resistance, °C/W, increase in material temperature for unit of power dissipated.
> 
> ...





cddc said:


> LG, I can't believe an educated person like you with a Dr. degree would argue something that is factual...you think I'm as gullible  as some uneducated person does...I'm so disappointed in you!
> 
> Okay, let's talk about thermal resistance and the law of conservation of energy!
> 
> ...



IMHO there's better ways to acknowledge you don't completely get the point.
Even when there's an obvious lack of understanding of what @L0rdGwyn is actually saying.
Let yourself be educated here. The forum's here to help. Not to fight you.

It would help to educate oneself a bit on the principles of heat transfer that LG is trying to convey.
Instead of going all keyboard warrior when another member is actually trying to teach you something.


----------



## Galapac

cddc said:


> Agree. Sorry for your bad experience. There are lots of fake Telefunken 6080 tubes out there, actually the ones listed out there currently are mostly fake, only a very few of them are genuine, just like the one asked.... Mostly they are just rebranded GE 6080s, and some rebranded RCA 6080s, of course most of the fake ones come with a shiny Telefunken box which confused lots of folks, sadly...


Oh no bad experience here, sorry if I implied that. I have genuine ones but it was this site and jacmusic.com that educated me on what was the real deal before I bought mine.


----------



## Renexx (Apr 25, 2022)

Here is my pair of Telefunken 6080s.

For the real deal take a look for double O getter at the top and Telefunken code printed with 7 numbers or a German label like that.


----------



## Galapac

Renexx said:


> Here is my pair of Telefunken 6080s.
> 
> Take a look for double O getter at the top and Telefunken code printed with 7 numbers or a German label like that.


 Nice tube examples you have there and one of my favorite work horse tubes in my Euphoria. They are a true gem.


----------



## Renexx

Galapac said:


> Nice tube examples you have there and one of my favorite work horse tubes in my Euphoria. They are a true gem.


Thanks, at first I was a little dissapointed but I'm starting to find good combinations for it on my  Euphoria. Yesterday I did listen to them with Sylvania 53' Bad boys and they come through beautifully with the Telefunkens.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> LG, I can't believe an educated person like you with a Dr. degree would argue something that is factual...you think I'm as gullible  as some uneducated person does...I'm so disappointed in you!
> 
> Okay, let's talk about thermal resistance and the law of conservation of energy!
> 
> ...



As I said, the power dissipated in both tubes will be the same.  The thermal resistance of the tubes will be different, so their measured temperatures will be different.  This is the reason you can attach a resistor dissipating 10W to a 1 oz. heat sink and the heat sink will get hotter than if the same resistor were attached to a 10 lbs. heat sink.  Both heat sinks dissipate 10W (minus the dissipation by the resistor body and leads), but the 1 oz. heat sink will rise to a higher temperature as it will have higher thermal resistance.  Power dissipation is the same, temperature is not.  

I was simply clarifying why you and mordy were having a disagreement.  Next time I won't bother.


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> As I said, the power dissipated in both tubes will be the same.  The thermal resistance of the tubes will be different, so their measured temperatures will be different.  This is the reason you can attach a resistor dissipating 10W to a 1 oz. heat sink and the heat sink will get hotter than if the same resistor were attached to a 10 lbs. heat sink.  Both heat sinks dissipate 10W (minus the dissipation by the resistor body and leads), but the 1 oz. heat sink will rise to a higher temperature as it will have higher thermal resistance.  Power dissipation is the same, temperature is not.
> 
> I was simply clarifying why you and mordy were having a disagreement.  Next time I won't bother.




The heat sink or thermal resistance has nothing to do with the total heat generated, which will be the same for both Ray graphite-plate 6080 and regular plate 6080, the room temperature will be raised to the same level.

Mordy treated a tube's max heat rating as actual heat generated, and thinks a graphite plate Ray 6080 (rated at 300c) will be 100c hotter than a regular plate 6080 (rated at 200c), you think it's a correct point to argue for...


----------



## cddc

Tom-s said:


> IMHO there's better ways to acknowledge you don't completely get the point.
> Even when there's an obvious lack of understanding of what @L0rdGwyn is actually saying.
> Let yourself be educated here. The forum's here to help. Not to fight you.
> 
> ...




LOL...Tom, do you really need to jump in here just because I said you are trying to sell Crack modding services for a fee in the Crack thread?


----------



## cddc

Galapac said:


> Oh no bad experience here, sorry if I implied that. I have genuine ones but it was this site and jacmusic.com that educated me on what was the real deal before I bought mine.




Glad to hear you had no bad experience.


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Apr 25, 2022)

cddc said:


> The heat sink or thermal resistance has nothing to do with the total heat generated, which will be the same for both Ray graphite-plate 6080 and regular plate 6080, the room temperature will be raised to the same level.
> 
> Mordy treated a tube's max heat rating as actual heat generated, and thinks a graphite plate Ray 6080 (rated at 300c) will be 100c hotter than a regular plate 6080 (rated at 200c), you think it's a correct point to argue for...



Mordy only stated that his tubes run at different temperatures based on internal structure and plate material, which is true, not that the temperature rise in the room or power dissipation will be unequal when using two different tubes.  You called him uneducated for making an accurate observation, which can be explained via thermal resistance.

The tube with the lower thermal resistance will transfer heat to air in the room more efficiently than the one with a higher thermal resistance, the net temperature rise of the room will be the same.

As has already been stated, the max temperature specification of the tubes has nothing to do with their operating temperature, power, or heat transfer.

So he is saying tube envelopes have different operating temperatures, you are saying power dissipation and net room temperature rise will be the same.  All of these things are true, which is why I clarified.


----------



## cddc

L0rdGwyn said:


> Mordy only stated that his tubes run at different temperatures based on internal structure and plate material, which is true, not that the temperature rise in the room or power dissipation will be unequal when using two different tubes.  You called him uneducated for making an accurate observation, which can be explained via thermal resistance.
> 
> The tube with the lower thermal resistance will transfer heat to air in the room more efficiently than the one with a higher thermal resistance, the net temperature rise of the room will be the same.
> 
> ...



Mordy were trying to prove Ray graphite 6080 will be 100c hotter than regular plate 6080 by using the max heat ratings from tube data sheets.

You can verify that in Apr 24, 2022 at 1:22 AM Post #8,623


----------



## L0rdGwyn (Apr 25, 2022)

cddc said:


> Mordy were trying to prove Ray graphite 6080 will be 100c hotter than regular plate 6080 by using the max heat ratings from tube data sheets.
> 
> You can verify that in Apr 24, 2022 at 1:22 AM Post #8,623



Of course that isn't true, but he is correct that the tubes operate at different temperatures and was looking for an explanation as to why.  The specific words were "gut feeling", that doesn't convey a declaration of fact.  Data was then provided, which showed a temperature difference, which he states he would "leave for others to figure out."

In this post right here.

I don't think any of that warrants calling someone uneducated.  Let me remind you that you tried to convince me that a 7802 could bias the same as a 6080 not too long ago, which is false, and could not interpret the characteristic curves which clearly showed the 7802 would operate in cutoff.  Everyone can learn, myself included, you do not need to denigrate someone's else's knowledge while trying to impart your own.


----------



## cddc

I


L0rdGwyn said:


> Of course that isn't true, but he is correct that the tubes operate at different temperatures and was looking for an explanation as to why.  The specific words were "gut feeling", that doesn't convey a declaration of fact.  Data was then provided, which showed a temperature difference, which he states he will "leave for others to figure out."
> 
> In this post right here.
> 
> I don't think any of that warrants calling someone uneducated.  Let me remind you that you tried to convince me that a 7802 could bias the same as a 6080 not too long ago, which is false, and could not interpret the characteristic curves which clearly showed the 7802 would operate in cutoff.  Everyone can learn, myself included, you do not need to denigrate someone's knowledge while trying to impart your own.



Of course, I've read his post, he was just still trying to prove graphite plate 6080 will be 100c hotter than regular plate 6080, that's obviously ridiculous, there is nothing to prove an error, he mistakenly treated a tube's max heat rating as its actual heat generated and now he wanted to use a thermal gun to prove he's correct...I was like what?!

Then you stepped in and tried to say we were looking at the different things, and came up with the nit-picky thing on grid current, what do you expect me to respond...


----------



## L0rdGwyn

cddc said:


> I
> 
> 
> Of course, I've read his post, he was just still trying to prove graphite plate 6080 will be 100c hotter than regular plate 6080, that's obviously ridiculous, there is nothing to prove an error, he mistakenly treated a tube's max heat rating as its actual heat generated and now he wanted to use a thermal gun to prove he's correct...I was like what?!
> ...



No significant grid current will flow in class A1, we are talking pico amps of current with the grid biased negative, it will not contribute in any measurable way to the temperature rise or power dissipation.  It's only significant in a class A2 amplifier, which doesn't apply to any 6AS7G OTL design.


----------



## mordy

The last thing I want is to create arguments and name calling. I only reported on the stabilized operating temperatures of different 6080 tubes. 
I have no technical knowledge and I am not out to prove anything- only report my observations. 
If there is any interest in comparing temperatures of 6080 tubes to 6AS7 tubes I will continue; if not, I will stop.


----------



## No Deal

L0rdGwyn said:


> Those are Russian.


  Thanks!


----------



## Galapac

mordy said:


> The last thing I want is to create arguments and name calling. I only reported on the stabilized operating temperatures of different 6080 tubes.
> I have no technical knowledge and I am not out to prove anything- only report my observations.
> If there is any interest in comparing temperatures of 6080 tubes to 6AS7 tubes I will continue; if not, I will stop.


@mordy I would do just for curiosity sake.
For me (and @L0rdGwyn eventually dumbed it down for me, lol,) is that different tubes will show different temps based on their physical properties and how they handle thermal resistance.

I got a real world wake-up of this when I accidentally touched a Svetlana Winged C EL34 and burned myself. 

Those get considerably hotter than other EL34/6L6GC types and now I know it’s probably due to it’s smaller size and therefore has a higher thermal resistance so it is not dissipating the heat as fast as a tube with more surface area In the same amp.

So if anything the former discussion was worthwhile for me.


----------



## HTSkywalker

Galapac said:


> Rule of thumb is DAC/DAP all the way up, controlling your volume with the amp.
> I however have always kept my amp about half way and control my volume with my DAC as it is more convenient given my setup.
> To my ears I never noticed a difference either way.


When there is no line-out from the DAC, best way to put to full up as you mentioned. 👌


----------



## HTSkywalker

cddc said:


> There is no need to compare temperature on two tubes with the same specs. Both 6080 and 6AS7G draw 2.5A heater current, and they also have the same plate/grid voltage/current, so they must generate the same amount of heat from a scientific perspective.
> 
> If you measure some small difference, it must be caused by some other factors, such as kind of music that is playing  (bass heavy music normally consumes more energy), individual tube variations (e.g. small variation in heater resistance), environmental, etc. But in general 6080 and 6AS7G should generate the same amount of heat.
> 
> ...


As far as I know, the 6080 is the military rugged  version of the 6AS7G although sound wise not that brilliant.


----------



## raindownthunda

mordy said:


> The last thing I want is to create arguments and name calling. I only reported on the stabilized operating temperatures of different 6080 tubes.
> I have no technical knowledge and I am not out to prove anything- only report my observations.
> If there is any interest in comparing temperatures of 6080 tubes to 6AS7 tubes I will continue; if not, I will stop.


I very much enjoy posts from members like you who share their curiosities, experiments, and observations with everyone here. There are many of us who are here to learn and develop a deeper understanding. With any unexplored topics there are bound to be different opinions, observations, and basis of understanding. That’s what makes threads like these interesting to follow. I don’t get any joy from members who try to prove they are smarter than others, especially when name calling or other disrespectful comments are involved.


----------



## KZCloud89

I'm currently using my WA22 with all high gain power tubes Tung-sol 5998/7236 for my Denon D7000/Fostex 900/909 which are low impedance headphones. I was wondering if low gain tubes such as 6080/6AS7G will be better match. Thinking of picking these but not sure      https://www.ebay.com/itm/313579532378


----------



## mordy

HTSkywalker said:


> As far as I know, the 6080 is the military rugged  version of the 6AS7G although sound wise not that brilliant.


I am not sure if this is the case, but the 6080 is supposed to be a 6AS7G in a smaller envelope.
There were only two manufacturers of the 6AS7G in the US - RCA and Tung Sol / Chatham. Especially the RCA appears under many different labels.
There are numerous different 6080 makes and IMHO some of them may sound better than the ST types. —As always, the pairing and synergy with other tubes is the key.
It appears that the Russian Svetlana 6H13C and equivalents was modeled on the RCA version. It was made for both civilian and military use and in very large quantities.
This Russian tube is being sold under many fake names today at high prices, but is always easily identified by the double inverted saucer getters. 
As far as I can remember, there are only US, Russian, British and Japanese 6AS7G tubes.


----------



## mordy

KZCloud89 said:


> I'm currently using my WA22 with all high gain power tubes Tung-sol 5998/7236 for my Denon D7000/Fostex 900/909 which are low impedance headphones. I was wondering if low gain tubes such as 6080/6AS7G will be better match. Thinking of picking these but not sure      https://www.ebay.com/itm/313579532378


If you want to try lower gain 6080 tubes I would suggest Sylvania. They sound very good and are not expensive- a sleeper.


----------



## KZCloud89

mordy said:


> If you want to try lower gain 6080 tubes I would suggest Sylvania. They sound very good and are not expensive- a sleeper.


Thanks Mordy.  I guess I can always get better tubes down the line...


----------



## Renexx

KZCloud89 said:


> I'm currently using my WA22 with all high gain power tubes Tung-sol 5998/7236 for my Denon D7000/Fostex 900/909 which are low impedance headphones. I was wondering if low gain tubes such as 6080/6AS7G will be better match. Thinking of picking these but not sure      https://www.ebay.com/itm/313579532378


Treat yourself with those Mullards and also pick up the GEC 6080s from the same seller for a great  contrast to your Tungsols. Both are on the warmer side of things.

Sylvania 6080 would be my least recommendation to be honest. Pick them up if you get them dirty cheap.

Low/high gain doesn't make a big difference on my Euphoria amp.


----------



## mordy

Renexx said:


> Treat yourself with those Mullards and also pick up the GEC 6080s from the same seller for a great  contrast to your Tungsols. Both are on the warmer side of things.
> 
> Sylvania 6080 would be my least recommendation to be honest. Pick them up if you get them dirty cheap.
> 
> Low/high gain doesn't make a big difference on my Euphoria amp.


I am checking temperatures of power tubes now on my Euforia - which driver tubes do you prefer with the above mentioned power tubes?


----------



## Renexx (Apr 25, 2022)

mordy said:


> I am checking temperatures of power tubes now on my Euforia - which driver tubes do you prefer with the above mentioned power tubes?


Rule of thumb for me is mostly one pair of  warm tubes and one more neutral.

The Mullards are quite warm so something like Sylvania 6sn7w, melz 6h8s, Philips miniwatt, Hytron 6sn7gt come to my mind.

GEC 6080 are not overly warm so many matches here. All vt-231, melz 6h8s, b65, Sylvania 6sn7w and Bad Boys,  would be my favourites.

I check only for sound 😜🎧


----------



## KZCloud89

Renexx said:


> Treat yourself with those Mullards and also pick up the GEC 6080s from the same seller for a great  contrast to your Tungsols. Both are on the warmer side of things.
> 
> Sylvania 6080 would be my least recommendation to be honest. Pick them up if you get them dirty cheap.
> 
> Low/high gain doesn't make a big difference on my Euphoria amp.


Just placed order for 2 pairs Mullard/GEC 6080s.  Hopefully they sound great with Fostex 900/909.


----------



## mordy

All right - more observations re how hot the 6AS7 tubes run. My preconceived idea was that since these tubes are larger and have more surface area than the 6080 tubes, they would run cooler.
Not so.
I again let a pair sit for an hour playing music and then took the measurements:
Svetlana 6H13C (which I thought run hot) measured 104/104C for the pair.
Tung Sol 5998 measured 104/106C for the pair.

What conclusion(s) can you draw? Soliciting your opinions...


----------



## Dogmatrix

mordy said:


> All right - more observations re how hot the 6AS7 tubes run. My preconceived idea was that since these tubes are larger and have more surface area than the 6080 tubes, they would run cooler.
> Not so.
> I again let a pair sit for an hour playing music and then took the measurements:
> Svetlana 6H13C (which I thought run hot) measured 104/104C for the pair.
> ...


I think your preconception is likely still correct since the lower half of the 6AS7G is almost certainly cooler , because you are looking for the hottest area to measure and the construction of the upper sections of the two tubes are very similar the results are likewise


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> All right - more observations re how hot the 6AS7 tubes run. My preconceived idea was that since these tubes are larger and have more surface area than the 6080 tubes, they would run cooler.
> Not so.
> I again let a pair sit for an hour playing music and then took the measurements:
> Svetlana 6H13C (which I thought run hot) measured 104/104C for the pair.
> ...


I can't offer any conclusions, and I don't mean to send this subject sideways (as I find it very interesting), but how accurate is the thermometer you're using?  Infrared I presume?  We went through probably 10 different brands and cost points at work trying to get something reliable for taking employee temps (Covid), and they were all over the map with readings, varying (seriously) 15+ degrees (F) between the highest reading one and the lowest.  I could guarantee safe passage to all my employees with a couple of them, but of course they would also be dead if that was their true body temp.    

I have a contact thermometer at home that reads exactly 212 (F) in boiling water and 34 F in a cup of ice water, so seems to be pretty spot on.  I can try it when I get home this weekend, but then how meaningful is taking the temperature of the glass? That I don't know either...


----------



## Galapac

bcowen said:


> I can't offer any conclusions, and I don't mean to send this subject sideways (as I find it very interesting), but how accurate is the thermometer you're using?  Infrared I presume?  We went through probably 10 different brands and cost points at work trying to get something reliable for taking employee temps (Covid), and they were all over the map with readings, varying (seriously) 15+ degrees (F) between the highest reading one and the lowest.  I could guarantee safe passage to all my employees with a couple of them, but of course they would also be dead if that was their true body temp.
> 
> I have a contact thermometer at home that reads exactly 212 (F) in boiling water and 34 F in a cup of ice water, so seems to be pretty spot on.  I can try it when I get home this weekend, but then how meaningful is taking the temperature of the glass? That I don't know either...


 if you use the same thermometer for every reading, regardless if it is off, then wouldn’t it be off the same amount for each reading or is it that you could take five readings and they would vary? 
The latter would be more problematic.


----------



## mordy

Dogmatrix said:


> I think your preconception is likely still correct since the lower half of the 6AS7G is almost certainly cooler , because you are looking for the hottest area to measure and the construction of the upper sections of the two tubes are very similar the results are likewise


All the tubes exhibit different temperatures in different parts of the tube - something of a 10 - 15C difference depending where you aim the infrared beam. The further the measurements are from the heaters, the cooler.


bcowen said:


> I can't offer any conclusions, and I don't mean to send this subject sideways (as I find it very interesting), but how accurate is the thermometer you're using?  Infrared I presume?  We went through probably 10 different brands and cost points at work trying to get something reliable for taking employee temps (Covid), and they were all over the map with readings, varying (seriously) 15+ degrees (F) between the highest reading one and the lowest.  I could guarantee safe passage to all my employees with a couple of them, but of course they would also be dead if that was their true body temp.
> 
> I have a contact thermometer at home that reads exactly 212 (F) in boiling water and 34 F in a cup of ice water, so seems to be pretty spot on.  I can try it when I get home this weekend, but then how meaningful is taking the temperature of the glass? That I don't know either...


Good points! The infrared thermometer I have cost around $13 on Amazon on sale and is not supposed to be used clinically.
For me, doing this is a hobby and for these purposes I am not going to invest in laboratory grade equipment. Still, I think that this little experiment shows that the 6080/6AS7 tubes run hot and that the larger tubes heat up similarly to the smaller ones.
We all knew they run hot (hopefully not from painful experiences), but I was surprised that the larger ST type tubes did not run cooler.
Again, if I were to measure the temperatures at the base of the tubes maybe the results would be different.
Anyhow, in this experiment, using NEC 6SN7GTB tubes (labeled Channel Master) in combination with the Tung Sol 5998 tubes sounded the best, (compared to 6080 Bendix and Sylvania, and 6AS7G / 6H13C Svetlana), and THAT is important.


----------



## Galapac

Nice way to bring it home and back on topic @mordy!


----------



## mordy

Galapac said:


> if you use the same thermometer for every reading, regardless if it is off, then wouldn’t it be off the same amount for each reading or is it that you could take five readings and they would vary?
> The latter would be more problematic.


The thermometer has a trigger and projects a little red dot on the object and you get an instant reading on a little screen. The screen has two lines -the top one instantly reads where you project the red dot, and the second line locks into the highest reading.
I found it to be consistent in the readouts, but I am well aware that the readings may not be 100% accurate.
Still, I find it very useful, and it tells me when to turn on the fans if the chassis or  the transformer housing start to get hot.
The distance also alters the readings; closer = hotter, so I try to do all readings at 1m or roughly 3 feet.


----------



## bcowen

Galapac said:


> *if you use the same thermometer for every reading, regardless if it is off, then wouldn’t it be off the same amount* for each reading or is it that you could take five readings and they would vary?
> The latter would be more problematic.


Theoretically, yes.  Depends on the quality of the thermometer I suppose.  Not trying to invalidate anything here, mostly just wondering based on my recent experiences with IR thermometers.  As well, the demand for them went ballistic with Covid, and it's very possible that quality went downhill as panic buying led to panic manufacturing. Perhaps older ones are better?  Kind of like tubes?


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> All the tubes exhibit different temperatures in different parts of the tube - something of a 10 - 15C difference depending where you aim the infrared beam. The further the measurements are from the heaters, the cooler.
> 
> Good points! The infrared thermometer I have cost around $13 on Amazon on sale and is not supposed to be used clinically.
> For me, doing this is a hobby and for these purposes I am not going to invest in laboratory grade equipment. *Still, I think that this little experiment shows that the 6080/6AS7 tubes run hot and that the larger tubes heat up similarly to the smaller ones.*
> ...


Oh, I agree.  I went off on an unnecessary tangent (apologies), and even well-calibrated, lab grade equipment might not tell us anything different.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> Oh, I agree.  I went off on an unnecessary tangent (apologies), and even well-calibrated, lab grade equipment might not tell us anything different.


Nothing to apologize for - the thread becomes more interesting with more tangents!


----------



## HTSkywalker

mordy said:


> I am not sure if this is the case, but the 6080 is supposed to be a 6AS7G in a smaller envelope.
> There were only two manufacturers of the 6AS7G in the US - RCA and Tung Sol / Chatham. Especially the RCA appears under many different labels.
> There are numerous different 6080 makes and IMHO some of them may sound better than the ST types. —As always, the pairing and synergy with other tubes is the key.
> It appears that the Russian Svetlana 6H13C and equivalents was modeled on the RCA version. It was made for both civilian and military use and in very large quantities.
> ...


Good to know 🙂


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> I can't offer any conclusions, and I don't mean to send this subject sideways (as I find it very interesting), but how accurate is the thermometer you're using?  Infrared I presume?  We went through probably 10 different brands and cost points at work trying to get something reliable for taking employee temps (Covid), and they were all over the map with readings, varying (seriously) 15+ degrees (F) between the highest reading one and the lowest.  I could guarantee safe passage to all my employees with a couple of them, but of course they would also be dead if that was their true body temp.
> 
> I have a contact thermometer at home that reads exactly 212 (F) in boiling water and 34 F in a cup of ice water, so seems to be pretty spot on.  I can try it when I get home this weekend, but then how meaningful is taking the temperature of the glass? That I don't know either...


The safest and most accurate way was to use the A$$ Thermometer to have a COVID free work environment but of course with a "bit" of inconvenience 😜
For home and hobby use am using this one with good results 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IT0ODPQ/?tag=ybdirth-20&geniuslink=true&th=1


----------



## mordy

HTSkywalker said:


> The safest and most accurate way was to use the A$$ Thermometer to have a COVID free work environment but of course with a "bit" of inconvenience 😜
> For home and hobby use am using this one with good results
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IT0ODPQ/?tag=ybdirth-20&geniuslink=true&th=1


What I have looks like this but in red:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DMI632...k6o&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_img&th=1


----------



## HTSkywalker

mordy said:


> What I have looks like this but in red:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DMI632...k6o&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_img&th=1


With 33K+ of reviews and a 4.5 Star rating, am sure it's excellent 👍


----------



## toddc2

Renexx said:


> Treat yourself with those Mullards and also pick up the GEC 6080s from the same seller for a great  contrast to your Tungsols. Both are on the warmer side of things.
> 
> Sylvania 6080 would be my least recommendation to be honest. Pick them up if you get them dirty cheap.
> 
> Low/high gain doesn't make a big difference on my Euphoria amp.


Just picked up a pair of the GEC 6080 from this seller, thanks for this post.


----------



## DivinesGaming

Anybody have a link to a page that's got a kind of universal guide to 6AS7G tubes? Prices, qualities, rarity, etc? A centralized database of knowledge? I know I've seen it around but can't find it when searching for a bit. >.< Kinda want to get some cheap oldstock tubes and compare them to new for 'science' ;D


----------



## exchez

DivinesGaming said:


> Anybody have a link to a page that's got a kind of universal guide to 6AS7G tubes? Prices, qualities, rarity, etc? A centralized database of knowledge? I know I've seen it around but can't find it when searching for a bit. >.< Kinda want to get some cheap oldstock tubes and compare them to new for 'science' ;D


A good place to start: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3


----------



## mordy

exchez said:


> A good place to start: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3


Read through it and agree that it is a good place to start. However, as always, the synergy between power and driver tubes is extremely important, and this always needs to be taken into consideration. In addition, the construction and biasing of the amp may also result in a different sound picture than described in the article.


----------



## exchez

DivinesGaming said:


> Anybody have a link to a page that's got a kind of universal guide to 6AS7G tubes? Prices, qualities, rarity, etc? A centralized database of knowledge? I know I've seen it around but can't find it when searching for a bit. >.< Kinda want to get some cheap oldstock tubes and compare them to new for 'science' ;D


Here are all the "coke bottle" 6AS7G tubes off the top of my head with what I would consider to be "fair deal" market prices for NOS. If you keep an eye on the Head-fi classifieds, you can save a bundle compared to people who sell these tubes as a business and must factor in many additional costs which really drive up the price.

*Common*
6AS7G 6N5PJ SHUGUANG - $18
6AS7G Svetlana Winged "C" 6H5C - $20
6AS7G Svetlana Winged "C" 6H13C - $30
6AS7G RCA - $40

*Uncommon*
6AS7G Chatham - $100
2399  Chatham - $200
5998  TungSol or Chatham - $250

*Rare*
421A  Western Electric - $300
6AS7G GEC or MWT - $400

*Mythical*
6AS7G Telefunken (brown base) - ???

Notes:
* The 6AS7G Svetlana Winged "C" 6H13C is, IMO, the best value.
* The 6AS7G RCA is a good entry level NOS tube. Prices for this tube can vary wildly, but $100 for a matched pair that test NOS is near the max I would consider. The RCA is a very common tube to see rebranded, both domestically (USA) and abroad.
* Basically, the 2399, 5998 and 421A are all the same tube so if you can find a pair of 2399s for a good price, no need to save up again for the 5998 or 421A.


----------



## mordy (Apr 28, 2022)

exchez said:


> Here are all the "coke bottle" 6AS7G tubes off the top of my head with what I would consider to be "fair deal" market prices for NOS. If you keep an eye on the Head-fi classifieds, you can save a bundle compared to people who sell these tubes as a business and must factor in many additional costs which really drive up the price.
> 
> *Common*
> 6AS7G 6N5PJ SHUGUANG - $18
> ...


The Svetlana 6H5C is actually a military version of the 6H13C and was made to tighter specifications than the 6H13C.
The 2399 Chatham/Tung Sol tubes are simply 6AS7 Chatham/TS tubes with IBM numbers on them. Any of these tubes with many 9s on them were made for IBM computers.
The Telefunken 6AS7G tube is indeed mythical since they never made them.
The 5998/421A differ a little from the regular 6AS7 tubes in regard to multiplication factor and mutual conductance.
The Shuguang tube doesn’t sound very good, but it puts on a great tube glow display (if that is important).
And just to mention it there are Japanese 6AS7G brands but you never see them for sale here.


----------



## adeadcrab

The 6H13C is quite a nice tube; I find it has a little warmth in the low midrange and a soft rounded bass but besides that quite linear and detailed. Really enjoyed it with HD800S last time I tried tubes + headphones with my La Figaro 339i.

Local tube seller is trying to sell them for $200 AUD each (142 USD).
I bought 2 pairs of 6H13C in 2014 for $28USD (and $20 USD extra for shipping). Less than $50 for 4...


----------



## mordy

There is also a US made 6520 tube that appears to be the same as 6AS7G and made by RCA and Tung Sol. It also exists in rebranded versions.
Maybe somebody knows if there are differences between the 6520 and the 6AS7G tubes? (One ad mentioned "upgraded 6AS7G" but that could perhaps be hype.)


----------



## CaptainFantastic

mordy said:


> There is also a US made 6520 tube that appears to be the same as 6AS7G and made by RCA and Tung Sol. It also exists in rebranded versions.
> Maybe somebody knows if there are differences between the 6520 and the 6AS7G tubes? (One ad mentioned "upgraded 6AS7G" but that could perhaps be hype.)



See post 8403 above from Gibosi. He says that the true 6520s (not my 5998 imposters) are identical looking to 6AS7G. In post 8413 he informs on how the true 6520 is tweaked from a 6AS7G.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

This inspired me to give the 6520 a run. Enjoying my Friday evening with some beautiful folk music.


----------



## mordy

CaptainFantastic said:


> This inspired me to give the 6520 a run. Enjoying my Friday evening with some beautiful folk music.


What driver tube are you using? Brimar?


----------



## CaptainFantastic

mordy said:


> What driver tube are you using? Brimar?



Indeed, it's the Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTY, this one with extra deflector plates at the top. 

Thanks to @JTbbb for recommending it last year. And thanks to @Tom-s for the great sounding, upgraded Bottlehead Crack.


----------



## mordy

CaptainFantastic said:


> Indeed, it's the Brimar CV1988 6SN7GTY, this one with extra deflector plates at the top.
> 
> Thanks to @JTbbb for recommending it last year. And thanks to @Tom-s for the great sounding, upgraded Bottlehead Crack.


The closest thng I have to a Brimar CV1988 is a Brimar CV423 or 13D1 which is a 25V version of the same tube. It has round plates and triple micas and was designed for use in aircraft.


----------



## bcowen

CaptainFantastic said:


> This inspired me to give the 6520 a run. Enjoying my Friday evening with some beautiful folk music.


Got one myself several weeks ago. Tests very nicely.  I'll probably be chased out of here by an angry mob armed with torches and pitchforks for even admitting this, but I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet.  I know....I suck.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Got one myself several weeks ago. Tests very nicely.  I'll probably be chased out of here by an angry mob armed with torches and pitchforks for even admitting this, but I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet.  I know....I suck.


That is a perfect-looking tube ! The innards and glass are impeccable! How could it not sound glorious 🎼🎵🎶…☁️☁️☁️?


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> That is a perfect-looking tube ! The innards and glass are impeccable! How could it not sound glorious 🎼🎵🎶…☁️☁️☁️?


Yeah, I was quite pleased with how it tested...both triodes above NOS and within 50 mmhos of each other.  I don't have any other 6AS7's or 6080's that are that nicely balanced.  I'm betting it sounds close to a Chatham 6AS7G, but I won't know until I try it.  Hopefully this weekend...


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> Yeah, I was quite pleased with how it tested...both triodes above NOS and within 50 mmhos of each other.  I don't have any other 6AS7's or 6080's that are that nicely balanced.  I'm betting it sounds close to a Chatham 6AS7G, but I won't know until I try it.  Hopefully this weekend...


Just to sum up about the elusive 6520:
Some of them look exactly like a regular Tung Sol 6AS7G, and some look exactly like a Tung Sol 5998 with the dimpled plates (domino plates). - Possibly an opportunity to get a 5998 below market price, but they don’t come up often.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

mordy said:


> Just to sum up about the elusive 6520:
> Some of them look exactly like a regular Tung Sol 6AS7G, and some look exactly like a Tung Sol 5998 with the dimpled plates (domino plates). - Possibly an opportunity to get a 5998 below market price, but they don’t come up often.



Correct, based on what we learned from Gibosi, the truth appears to be:

1) Tung Sol / Chatham 6AS7G
2) 6520 (visually the same as #1 but tweaked internals, performance)
3) Imposter 6520 (5998 masquerading as 6520, should not be referred to as a 6520)

Which means post #1 in this thread can be improved on this point.


----------



## Flisker (May 2, 2022)

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for an advice, maybe someone here knows the answer or can point me in the right direction.

I got something loose in base of my 6AS7G GEC tube and it results in tube sometimes turning on and working fine and other times if I moved the amp for example it won't turn on at all. Presumable because the loose part moved and is now shorting the wires.

So I guess I need to remove the base get the loose thing out and get the base back on, so I found someone who could do it for me, but he said he's not sure if the base on this tube can be remove the same way as this one for example :



I can't find any picrues of the 6AS7G GEC or actually any 6AS7G without base 

Anyone knows if all these tubes are similar in a way the wires are soldered in the connectors and can be relatively easily unsoldered by someone experienced with soldering ?

Thank you very much for any tips on the topic.


----------



## gibosi

Flisker said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm looking for an advice, maybe someone here knows the answer or can point me in the right direction.
> 
> ...




In my opinion, if the person you have been talking to doesn't know the answer, you should find someone else.

Now, for the record, I have never removed a tube base or installed a new base. Like you, I have seen videos and read instructions. And from what I have read and seen, pehaps it isn't even necessary to remove and replace the base. You might be able to solve this problem by sucking out the old solder from inside the pins and adding new solder. Perhaps @Paladin79, a person whose opinion I trust, might be willing stop by and let us know what he thinks.


----------



## Flisker (May 2, 2022)

gibosi said:


> In my opinion, if the person you have been talking to doesn't know the answer, you should find someone else.
> 
> Now, for the record, I have never removed a tube base or installed a new base. Like you, I have seen videos and read instructions. And from what I have read and seen, pehaps it isn't even necessary to remove and replace the base. You might be able to solve this problem by sucking out the old solder from inside the pins and adding new solder. Perhaps @Paladin79, a person whose opinion I trust, might be willing stop by and let us know what he thinks.



Problem is, finding someone who speciallizes specifically in NOS tubes seems to be pretty hard in my location 

He's got plenty of experience with soldering in general, engineering etc. It's just he's not specialist on these old tubes, so he mentioned that it would be good to know if we can find some more info about this. In case the wires are not attached the same "simple" way as are the ones on the tube in the video.

If it is the same way, then it's piece a cake for him.



gibosi said:


> You might be able to solve this problem by sucking out the old solder from inside the pins and adding new solder.



This is very interesting! That's exactly what I was thinking about 30 minutes ago when inspecting the tube again.

What if there is issue just with the pins, because the loose thing inside is probably just piece of the old glue and that's not really the problem.

This is how the pins look. I would literally just take the amp from table, put it into closet, take it back few days later carefully, put on table and it would not work, while it worked fine before for hours.


----------



## gibosi (May 2, 2022)

Flisker said:


> Problem is, finding someone who speciallizes specifically in NOS tubes seems to be pretty hard in my location
> 
> He's got plenty of experience with soldering in general, engineering etc. It's just he's not specialist on these old tubes, so he mentioned that it would be good to know if we can find some more info about this. In case the wires are not attached the same "simple" way as are the ones on the tube in the video.
> 
> ...



In my limited experience, the GEC 6AS7G is mounted into its base the same "simple" way as the Type 45 in the video is mounted.

After 50+ years, sometimes the solder inside the pins fails. So removing and renewing the solder often helps, and replacing the base might not be necessary.

As far as the loose base, I just use clear, hard fingernail polish to reseal it to the glass. And then I store it upside down for a day or two. For example, a Cossor 53KU:


----------



## Tom-s

From my experience with tubes it's very much possible to rebase them. I've done it with all sorts of tubes.  All P-base tubes are most popular as I just don't like the sockets. But you have to be OK loosing the tube in the procedure when done wrong.

GEC's are similar. It's normal in my experience to find loose debris inside a GEC socket. Never seen a short inside the socket to date.

First it could be most easy to have the tube tested. See what works and what doesn't. The tube has two triodes inside. So if it doesn't work at all from time to time. I'd first check the heater. If it glows at all. If it doesn't work as a result of a lack of heater. First have all pins resoldered and the tube tested again. It's a quick and easy job.
With the questionable soldering on GEC's sometimes (Mullard 8 pin more often) it's a good first start.

Oh and make sure it's not the tube socket :-\.

If testing shows the problem is in fact a short in the base (less likely). Only then move on to considering a base replacement.


----------



## JTbbb

Flisker said:


> .
> 
> This is how the pins look. I would literally just take the amp from table, put it into closet, take it back few days later carefully, put on table and it would not work, while it worked fine before for hours.


Trying not to be too obvious, but it is only this tube you have a problem with when moving your amp? Just trying to cover all angles!


----------



## Deleeh

I have a similar problem with my Tung sol 5998.
They are going by post tomorrow to a tube repair service to have a closer look.
I suspect that, like me, it's just something mechanical and should be soldered back into place.

In my case, the tube in the base of the amplifier is wobbling and causing interference and noise.
So it is also unpleasant like when it is not working.

I got a tip that it's better to try this on discarded tubes to practice than to end up breaking the good tube more than it actually is.

Apart from that, it has to be said that the guy in the video has quite good tools and it's easier to work with them than with a simple soldering iron, which is a pain in the neck.
It would be possible to do this but you should know what you are doing.

The other tip is that even if it is a really rare pipe, I would have it done.


----------



## mordy

Deleeh said:


> I have a similar problem with my Tung sol 5998.
> They are going by post tomorrow to a tube repair service to have a closer look.
> I suspect that, like me, it's just something mechanical and should be soldered back into place.
> 
> ...


The first thing I would do is just to reheat the pins and hopefully the solder will flow back into the right space. Touch a soldering iron for 30 seconds to each pin, holding the tube so that the pins are facing down. -If the solder starts to flow out from the pin (unlikely), stop.
Hypnos1 is a head-fi member that has a lot of experience soldering tube bases and even changing a side ontact base to an octal base - he would know what to do and how.
And if the base is loose, a couple of drops of crazy glue will fix it.


----------



## Flisker

gibosi said:


> As far as the loose base, I just use clear, hard fingernail polish to reseal it to the glass. And then I store it upside down for a day or two. For example, a Cossor 53KU:



To make my story complete... that's what I did.

I stopped using the tube about year ago because the tube got loose and had similar problem, it would just stop playing here and there and it was just scary using loose tube.

About month ago I tried it again and it worked, but.. again after 20 min or so it just stopped. So I found out that the nail polish should fix it and so I did it. But here I'm now with similar issue. So that's why I was thinking about taking the base off completely.


----------



## Flisker (May 3, 2022)

Tom-s said:


> From my experience with tubes it's very much possible to rebase them. I've done it with all sorts of tubes.  All P-base tubes are most popular as I just don't like the sockets. But you have to be OK loosing the tube in the procedure when done wrong.
> 
> GEC's are similar. It's normal in my experience to find loose debris inside a GEC socket. Never seen a short inside the socket to date.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for the tips!

I got picture of the debris, when turning the tube upside down few times. It does look like part of the base glue so I guess that's not the problem.





Last evening I tried the tube 3 times and it wouldn't glow at all. Didn't want to move it around and try again and again since that's probably not really good for the other tubes, turning them on and off like this right ?

Socket on amp is 100% working, I have lots of other tubes that work flawlesly.



JTbbb said:


> Trying not to be too obvious, but it is only this tube you have a problem with when moving your amp? Just trying to cover all angles!



Yea just this one, have a lot of other tubes. And they work fine in Elise and WA2.



Deleeh said:


> Apart from that, it has to be said that the guy in the video has quite good tools and it's easier to work with them than with a simple soldering iron, which is a pain in the neck.
> It would be possible to do this but you should know what you are doing.
> 
> The other tip is that even if it is a really rare pipe, I would have it done.



Yea absolutely, I don't want to do it myself, since last time I did some soldering was like 10 years ago and this is really lovely tube.


----------



## gibosi

Flisker said:


> To make my story complete... that's what I did.
> 
> I stopped using the tube about year ago because the tube got loose and had similar problem, it would just stop playing here and there and it was just scary using loose tube.
> 
> About month ago I tried it again and it worked, but.. again after 20 min or so it just stopped. So I found out that the nail polish should fix it and so I did it. But here I'm now with similar issue. So that's why I was thinking about taking the base off completely.



And this is why I use nail polish rather than crazy glue. If it turns out that you need to remove the base, nail polish remover will do the trick. If you use crazy glue, well, removing the base would likely be very difficult.


----------



## Flisker

Since you guys had so many amazing tips, I'll try asking about one more issue.

Is there anything I can do about small piece that broke off from something (probably during shipping) and is stuck up here in the tube ?

The tube works, but it's doing sort of whining/beeping sound sometimes. Usually a lot after starting the amp and then after about 20+ minutes it mostly stops and sometimes come back for a bit and goes away again. So If I can wait 30min, then I can kind of listen to the tube, but it's still annoying.

I wrote this one off as "broken" because I can't see how I would get that piece out of there 

Seller refunded me I think 60-70% of the tube price when I bought it about year ago, didn't want to be asshole and agreed. Thinking... well at least the other one works and I can use it someday in something like Bottlehead Crack.

Tubes actually sounds amazing (JAN 5889's), so it's sad that this happened during shipping.


----------



## gibosi

Flisker said:


> Since you guys had so many amazing tips, I'll try asking about one more issue.
> 
> Is there anything I can do about small piece that broke off from something (probably during shipping) and is stuck up here in the tube ?
> 
> ...



In my opinion, it is very unlikely that that small piece is the source of the noise you are hearing. It is important to remember that these tubes were never manufactured for use in audio amplifiers. And the small noises you are hearing would not be a problem when the tube was used for the purpose it was designed: a series regulator in voltage stabilized power supply circuits. Also, these tubes are 50+ years old and they were manufactured by hand on an assembly line. There are inevitably small construction differences from tube to tube. And therefore, I think it is unreasonable to expect perfection.

Further, in my experience with the 5998 and similar output tubes, it often take about 30 minutes or more for the tube to heat up and stabilize at it's normal operating temperature. So if that 5998 sounds fine after 30 minutes I am inclined to think that there is nothing wrong with your tube.

But I know, others may disagree with me....


----------



## Flisker

gibosi said:


> So if that 5998 sounds fine after 30 minutes I am inclined to think that there is nothing wrong with your tube.



Oh no, it's 100% screwed, I guess I was being too soft on describing the squealing noise it does. It is pretty loud, you'd have to blast the headphones hard to overshadow it. And then it's coming and going here and there for minute or so even after an hour for example.

But you might be right that the small piece is not the reason of the noise. Didn't consider that.

I will try to run the tubes for 10 hours or so, on weekend to see if it stops completely after few hours or if it keeps coming back.


----------



## jonathan c

gibosi said:


> In my opinion, it is very unlikely that that small piece is the source of the noise you are hearing. It is important to remember that these tubes were never manufactured for use in audio amplifiers. And the small noises you are hearing would not be a problem when the tube was used for the purpose it was designed: a series regulator in voltage stabilized power supply circuits. Also, these tubes are 50+ years old and they were manufactured by hand on an assembly line. There are inevitably small construction differences from tube to tube. And therefore, I think it is unreasonable to expect perfection.
> 
> Further, in my experience with the 5998 and similar output tubes, it often take about 30 minutes or more for the tube to heat up and stabilize at it's normal operating temperature. So if that 5998 sounds fine after 30 minutes I am inclined to think that there is nothing wrong with your tube.
> 
> But I know, others may disagree with me....


Not me 😊


----------



## Flisker

jonathan c said:


> Not me 😊



Is this really common with some tubes ? That they need hour+ to "stabilize" ?

I never ran into this kind of behavior.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> In my opinion, it is very unlikely that that small piece is the source of the noise you are hearing. It is important to remember that these tubes were never manufactured for use in audio amplifiers. And the small noises you are hearing would not be a problem when the tube was used for the purpose it was designed: a series regulator in voltage stabilized power supply circuits. Also, these tubes are 50+ years old and they were manufactured by hand on an assembly line. There are inevitably small construction differences from tube to tube. And therefore, I think it is unreasonable to expect perfection.
> 
> Further, in my experience with the 5998 and similar output tubes, it often take about 30 minutes or more for the tube to heat up and stabilize at it's normal operating temperature. So if that 5998 sounds fine after 30 minutes I am inclined to think that there is nothing wrong with your tube.
> 
> But I know, others may disagree with me....


I think you are 100% right!
Now, is this loose piece glass or metal? I have a TS BGRP 12SN7 tube that the little clip on top (heat sink?) came loose. I was afraid that it would cause a short inside the tube and solved it by taping a small round 3mm magnet to the tube that held the clip in place against the glass.


----------



## mordy

Flisker said:


> Is this really common with some tubes ? That they need hour+ to "stabilize" ?
> 
> I never ran into this kind of behavior.


Some tubes definitively need time to stabilize and be up to full potential. This applies to metal tubes and often to larger tubes as well. In my experience 1/2 hour should be fine.


----------



## jonathan c

Flisker said:


> Is this really common with some tubes ? That they need hour+ to "stabilize" ?
> 
> I never ran into this kind of behavior.


I have found that the 5998 (Tung Sol) ‘like’ to have 20-30 minutes to ‘come into song’: optimal operating temperature 🤷🏻‍♂️☑️, large size of ‘domino’ plate 🤷🏻‍♂️☑️…


----------



## gibosi

Flisker said:


> Is this really common with some tubes ? That they need hour+ to "stabilize" ?
> 
> I never ran into this kind of behavior.



5998's often need 30 minutes or so. But if it never quiets down, then I agree. You have a bad tube. Sorry. 
But again, it is likely not due to that small piece.


----------



## Flisker (May 3, 2022)

mordy said:


> Now, is this loose piece glass or metal?


It looks like glass to me and right next to it.. seems to be the place where it came from I guess.

Is it possible that there is a glass coat over the plate and it cracked ?

Here are multiple pictures : https://imgur.com/a/Ahxkl4x






There are multiple pieces, it's not just one


----------



## gibosi

Flisker said:


> It looks like glass to me and right next to it.. seems to be the place where it came from I guess.
> 
> Is it possible that there is a glass coat over the plate and it cracked ?
> 
> ...



These look like pieces of mica to me. But both mica and glass are inert. They do not conduct electricity. And it's not uncommon to see loose pieces of mica and/or glass inside vacuum tubes. And I figure that as long as I can see these pieces, they are harmless. So again, IMO, these are not the reason your tube is defective. It is more likely that the defect is not visible to the eye.

Since the seller gave you a substantial refund, I would encourage you to toss this where you normally put your defective tubes and forget it. And start looking for another 5998.


----------



## Flisker (May 3, 2022)

gibosi said:


> Since the seller gave you a substantial refund, I would encourage you to toss this where you normally put your defective tubes and forget it. And start looking for another 5998.



Yea that's what I basically did, was just curious what you guys think about this.

As for others, I have 2 more pairs 

But interesting thing about these is that they sure do not sound the same at all, to my ears.

I have 5998's branded Chatham and those sound quite transparent, while the other pair branded Tung Sol sounds sort of bloated in bass and this JAN branded 5998's do not have the bass bloat and sound more open/expansive. So out of the 3 pairs, this pair with this defective tube, sounds the best 

One more thing I was thinking about was... is it possible that this problem goes away after some burn-in ? 100-200 hours ? Seller claimed the tubes are NOS and except for the pieces in this one tube, they both look excellent so they might actually be NOS.


----------



## gibosi

Flisker said:


> Yea that's what I basically did, was just curious what you guys think about this.
> 
> As for others, I have 2 more pairs
> 
> ...



The 5998 was continuously manufactured from the 1950's and into the 1970's. Obviously, over a 20 year period, with changes in technology and materials and feed back from the field, the construction changed over time. So while I have not done comparisons myself, I am not at all surprised that tubes manufactured at different times sound different. So take note of the years and construction of the ones you think sound the best and buy some more. 

And I'm skeptical that it will quiet down after 100 or 200 hours. And after all, even today, brand new items often arrive defective so it isn't a surprise that 60 years ago, some tubes arrived defective. But unfortunately, Tung Sol is no longer around so you can't simply call and get a replacement. lol


----------



## Flisker

gibosi said:


> Tung Sol is no longer around so you can't simply call and get a replacement. lol



Yea this sucks  And prices are getting crazy. Still don't have the WE 421 pair. But that's like 600$+ for good pair nowadays, yikes.


----------



## gibosi

Flisker said:


> Yea this sucks  And prices are getting crazy. Still don't have the WE 421 pair. But that's like 600$+ for good pair nowadays, yikes.



I don't have a pair of WE 421 either. And very frankly I doubt that they are worth the going price. I think I can live happily everafter without them. lol


----------



## leftside

Flisker said:


> Is this really common with some tubes ? That they need hour+ to "stabilize" ?
> 
> I never ran into this kind of behavior.


5 minutes max for the tubes I have.


----------



## JTbbb

leftside said:


> 5 minutes max for the tubes I have.


Me too, with all the tubes being discussed.


----------



## toddc2

JTbbb said:


> Me too, with all the tubes being discussed.


I find most tubes need at least 30 seconds to heat up and stabilize. I have noticed some amplifiers sound noticeably better after an hour or two, but there could be many reasons: the tubes hit their stride or the amplifier hits it’s stride or (most likely) I’ve had a couple of beverages by then and my mood had hit its stride…


----------



## mordy

toddc2 said:


> I find most tubes need at least 30 seconds to heat up and stabilize. I have noticed some amplifiers sound noticeably better after an hour or two, but there could be many reasons: the tubes hit their stride or the amplifier hits it’s stride or (most likely) I’ve had a couple of beverages by then and my mood had hit its stride…


An amp and set-up could sound good right away, but IMHO I noticed many times that everything sounds better after a while. And I am convinced that all metal tubes (the black ugly ones) need more time than glass tubes to warm up and sound their best.
And I am not speaking about those (somewhat) rare moments when everything sounds really really good... - just in general.


----------



## toddc2

mordy said:


> An amp and set-up could sound good right away, but IMHO I noticed many times that everything sounds better after a while. And I am convinced that all metal tubes (the black ugly ones) need more time than glass tubes to warm up and sound their best.
> And I am not speaking about those (somewhat) rare moments when everything sounds really really good... - just in general.


Beverage kidding aside, I have found my tube amps do sound better after an hour or two. I routinely turn my amps on an hour before I use them.


----------



## gibosi

leftside said:


> 5 minutes max for the tubes I have.



There were a number of folks in the Glenn forum who reported that their headphones were damaged by the loud popping sounds of 5998's as they warmed up. The consensus advice of those folks was to let 5998's warm up for about 30 minutes before connecting headphones to protect ears and headphone drivers.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> There were a number of folks in the Glenn forum who reported that their headphones were damaged by the loud popping sounds of 5998's as they warmed up. The consensus advice of those folks was to let 5998's warm up for about 30 minutes before connecting headphones to protect ears and headphone drivers.


As an extra precaution with any tube change or new tube, I always use an inexpensive pair of headphones the first few minutes. You never know when something untoward will happen with an old tube...
After blowing an expensive headphone driver this routine doesn't seem so burdensome.


----------



## leftside (May 4, 2022)

gibosi said:


> There were a number of folks in the Glenn forum who reported that their headphones were damaged by the loud popping sounds of 5998's as they warmed up. The consensus advice of those folks was to let 5998's warm up for about 30 minutes before connecting headphones to protect ears and headphone drivers.


30 mins is about all the time I get to listen some evenings. I have 6 5998's in my amp. Hopefully they don't all blow at once 

I just let the meters get to their required values, wait a couple more minutes and then plugin the headphones. IF tubes are going to go, I usually find it's during the first few mins. I did once have a bad tube, and all the meters were going crazy at startup. I shut down the amp pretty quickly when that happened.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

I keep a list with all of my tubes with the various details like source, purchase date, condition, and also how it behaves in my amp. Recently a couple of 5998s seemed very slightly noisy and a 6SN7 was even more so. My spreadsheet indicated they should be perfectly quiet. Strange, I thought. Then I realized... my very nice tube socket savers (from the best source - not their fault, probably just bad specimens) were the culprit. Removed them and the tubes are perfect again. So there's that regarding tube noise too... funny how they only affected a few tubes, the majority were still perfectly quiet.


----------



## Flisker

CaptainFantastic said:


> I keep a list with all of my tubes with the various details like source, purchase date, condition, and also how it behaves in my amp. Recently a couple of 5998s seemed very slightly noisy and a 6SN7 was even more so. My spreadsheet indicated they should be perfectly quiet. Strange, I thought. Then I realized... my very nice tube socket savers (from the best source - not their fault, probably just bad specimens) were the culprit. Removed them and the tubes are perfect again. So there's that regarding tube noise too... funny how they only affected a few tubes, the majority were still perfectly quiet.


That is interesting info, I got 3rd tube amp today so I can test the tubes in all 3 and see if they behave the same or not.


----------



## mordy

Flisker said:


> That is interesting info, I got 3rd tube amp today so I can test the tubes in all 3 and see if they behave the same or not.


It should be possible to tighten the pin receptacles and perhaps clean the socket savers. The main problem I had in the past was that they held the tubes too tight and I had to struggle to get the tubes out of the socket savers.


----------



## Odin412

mordy said:


> As an extra precaution with any tube change or new tube, I always use an inexpensive pair of headphones the first few minutes. You never know when something untoward will happen with an old tube...
> After blowing an expensive headphone driver this routine doesn't seem so burdensome.


That's very good advice. I learned the hard way that some tubes crackle a bit at first, which translates to _very _loud scratching sounds in the headphone. I created a special TRS plug with two 300 ohm resistors to allow me to run new tubes for a while without a headphone connected.


----------



## mordy

Odin412 said:


> That's very good advice. I learned the hard way that some tubes crackle a bit at first, which translates to _very _loud scratching sounds in the headphone. I created a special TRS plug with two 300 ohm resistors to allow me to run new tubes for a while without a headphone connected.


Do you think it helps to run tubes without the load of headphones for a while? I know somebody who has a setup where he lets new tubes sit with the heaters on for three days before he starts to use them.


----------



## Flisker

So I'm just testing Euphoria for a first time and I noticed that cathode on one of the driver tubes seems to glow significantly more than the other.

Is it just because one tube might have filament pushed more to the edge up there, so it seems like it's glowing more ? Or is it possible issue with the tube ? I noticed this on some other different tubes in past but didn't pay much attention to it.


----------



## mordy (May 4, 2022)

Flisker said:


> So I'm just testing Euphoria for a first time and I noticed that cathode on one of the driver tubes seems to glow significantly more than the other.
> 
> Is it just because one tube might have filament pushed more to the edge up there, so it seems like it's glowing more ? Or is it possible issue with the tube ? I noticed this on some other different tubes in past but didn't pay much attention to it.


It means nothing - you are right in that the assembly is a little different or in a different position in the tube.
Nothing to worry about at all...
Very often tubes made on the same assembly line, even the same day, differ a little. It is almost a rule that they heat up to slightly different temperatures as well. A tolerance of 10% was considered perfectly acceptable in the tube era.
Just think about it - a voltage difference in driving a 6.3V tube between 5.67V to 6.93V is just fine.
Hope I don't offend anybody with these statements, but they were verified by a friend of mine who is an audio-visual engineer and worked as such in the tube era some 60 years ago.


----------



## Flisker

mordy said:


> It means nothing - you are right in that the assembly is a little different or in a different position in the tube.
> Nothing to worry about at all...


Perfect, thank you! Tubes have probably 300 hours on them and play perfectly fine, I was just curious.


----------



## mordy

Flisker said:


> Perfect, thank you! Tubes have probably 300 hours on them and play perfectly fine, I was just curious.


Sometimes one tube glows brightly and the glow in the other one is barely discernable...


----------



## toddc2

mordy said:


> Sometimes one tube glows brightly and the glow in the other one is barely discernable...


Yes I have found the same to be true, particularly with driver tubes.


----------



## Odin412

mordy said:


> Do you think it helps to run tubes without the load of headphones for a while? I know somebody who has a setup where he lets new tubes sit with the heaters on for three days before he starts to use them.


I think that for a transformer-coupled tube amp that is perfectly fine, but I read somewhere that you shouldn't leave an OTL tube amp on without a load connected. I have a transformer-coupled Woo Audio WA6 and I leave that on without a headphone connected with no issues, but my WA3 is an OTL amp and that's where i use my resistor-loaded plug if I leave it without a headphone.


----------



## gibosi

Odin412 said:


> I think that for a transformer-coupled tube amp that is perfectly fine, but I read somewhere that you shouldn't leave an OTL tube amp on without a load connected. I have a transformer-coupled Woo Audio WA6 and I leave that on without a headphone connected with no issues, but my WA3 is an OTL amp and that's where i use my resistor-loaded plug if I leave it without a headphone.



My understanding is different. Transformer-coupled amps usually require a connected load, whereas it doesn't matter for OTL amps. But, perhaps we can't generalize? I can say that Glenn, the maker of my Glenn OTL, told me no load is required for my amp. So perhaps it is best to check with the manufacturer in each case.


----------



## L0rdGwyn

gibosi said:


> There were a number of folks in the Glenn forum who reported that their headphones were damaged by the loud popping sounds of 5998's as they warmed up. The consensus advice of those folks was to let 5998's warm up for about 30 minutes before connecting headphones to protect ears and headphone drivers.



This type of arcing often occurs not because the tubes are defective, but due to bad startup conditions.  Tubes have maximum voltage ratings between their electrodes, for example there should not be more than 100V max between a 5998s cathode and its heater.  Likewise, large voltage differences between grid and cathode should be avoided.  Both of these things can cause arcing inside the tube.  Depending on the circuit topology, during startup, these ratings might be exceeded as the tubes begin to conduct, which I believe is the cause of a large majority of the arcing issues associated with the 5998.  I haven't looked at the SRPP startup conditions in detail, but that may be the reason why it is happening in the GOTL.  I'll investigate.  It certainly is an issue in direct-coupled cathode follower type 6AS7G OTLs.  One solution is to put a diode connected between the output tube's grid and cathode so the voltage is clamped during startup.



Odin412 said:


> I think that for a transformer-coupled tube amp that is perfectly fine, but I read somewhere that you shouldn't leave an OTL tube amp on without a load connected. I have a transformer-coupled Woo Audio WA6 and I leave that on without a headphone connected with no issues, but my WA3 is an OTL amp and that's where i use my resistor-loaded plug if I leave it without a headphone.



Most OTL amplifiers have a load resistor on the output in parallel with the headphone jack.  The value is often much higher than the nominal impedance of the headphone, so in parallel, the load is predominantly the headphone, the parallel resistor will steal a very small amount of current.  So if the headphone is unplugged, there is still a load connected.  This is very common.



gibosi said:


> My understanding is different. Transformer-coupled amps usually require a connected load, whereas it doesn't matter for OTL amps. But, perhaps we can't generalize? I can say that Glenn, the maker of my Glenn OTL, told me no load is required for my amp. So perhaps it is best to check with the manufacturer in each case.



Correct, typically it is a transformer coupled amplifier that should always have some load connected, but OTLs typically have a parallel load resistor as well.


----------



## Monsterzero

L0rdGwyn said:


> This type of arcing often occurs not because the tubes are defective, but due to bad startup conditions.  Tubes have maximum voltage ratings between their electrodes, for example there should not be more than 100V max between a 5998s cathode and its heater.  Likewise, large voltage differences between grid and cathode should be avoided.  Both of these things can cause arcing inside the tube.  Depending on the circuit topology, during startup, these ratings might be exceeded as the tubes begin to conduct, which I believe is the cause of a large majority of the arcing issues associated with the 5998.  I haven't looked at the SRPP startup conditions in detail, but that may be the reason why it is happening in the GOTL.  I'll investigate.  It certainly is an issue in direct-coupled cathode follower type 6AS7G OTLs.  One solution is to put a diode connected between the output tube's grid and cathode so the voltage is clamped during startup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 So, about those bettas.....


----------



## mordy

Odin412 said:


> I think that for a transformer-coupled tube amp that is perfectly fine, but I read somewhere that you shouldn't leave an OTL tube amp on without a load connected. I have a transformer-coupled Woo Audio WA6 and I leave that on without a headphone connected with no issues, but my WA3 is an OTL amp and that's where i use my resistor-loaded plug if I leave it without a headphone.





Odin412 said:


> The person I referred to who lets the new tubes burn in for three days uses an external power source to sockets and does not use an amplifier to burn in the tubes.


----------



## Odin412

Thanks for the responses above! I checked the manual for my WA3 and it doesn't say anything about not running the amp without headphone connected, so I guess the moral of the story is to ignore random advice online and RTFM. Oh well, at least I got to practice my soldering skills...


----------



## leftside

Odin412 said:


> Thanks for the responses above! I checked the manual for my WA3 and it doesn't say anything about not running the amp without headphone connected, so I guess the moral of the story is to ignore random advice online and RTFM. Oh well, at least I got to practice my soldering skills...


Definitely ignore the random advice, but you can trust the good fellas @L0rdGwyn for technical advice and @gibosi for general all around tube knowledge.


----------



## bcowen

Flisker said:


> Yea that's what I basically did, was just curious what you guys think about this.
> 
> As for others, I have 2 more pairs
> 
> ...


Assuming those little pieces are actually chunks of mica (which won't hurt anything), then it's much more likely the noise you're getting is due to degraded solder in the pins.  I have four TS 5998's, and three of them had varying levels of random rustling and squealing before resoldering.  Afterwards?  No noise at all.  I've had two Chatham 6AS7G's with the same problem and fix.  The pin solder issue pops up more frequently with the 1950's era Russian tubes (Melz, Fotons, etc), but I'm beginning to think Tung Sol must have bought their solder from Russia back then.


----------



## bcowen

leftside said:


> Definitely ignore the random advice, but you can trust the good fellas @L0rdGwyn for technical advice and @gibosi for general all around tube knowledge.


+1 on that!


----------



## Flisker (May 9, 2022)

bcowen said:


> Assuming those little pieces are actually chunks of mica (which won't hurt anything), then it's much more likely the noise you're getting is due to degraded solder in the pins. I have four TS 5998's, and three of them had varying levels of random rustling and squealing before resoldering. Afterwards? No noise at all. I've had two Chatham 6AS7G's with the same problem and fix. The pin solder issue pops up more frequently with the 1950's era Russian tubes (Melz, Fotons, etc), but I'm beginning to think Tung Sol must have bought their solder from Russia back then.



So I ran the tube basically all day everyday since the post, when it was squeaking/whining I would just move that one headphone of my ear 

And I think after 30 something hours, it basically stopped completely. So that's quite interesting.

_Added:_ I just thought... what the heck, if after 100 hours it's doing the same quite loud squeeking noise, I will just write it off complete/give it to a friend for resoldering or trying something more exotic with it, but as seller claimed those to be NOS and micas looked shiny/unused. (still not sure if this is good indicator or not, whether the tube is used or NOS, maybe someone can chime in on the topic  ) And the tubes sounded probably the best out of all pairs I got, when not making the noise, it seemed to be worth a try.

Maybe this info helps someone with similar problem in the future


----------



## Thaddy

I have a question about these Tung-Sol branded 6AS7G's I have.  I got them a while ago and only paid $40 for the pair.  They have the '322' Tung-Sol factory code, however their internal construction does not look like other Tung-Sol 6AS7G's I've seen.  These appears to be the exact same construction as the 1950's RCA black plates, with the flaps/protectors above and below the plates and a top getter.  Think these are just rebranded RCA's?

I have many pairs of RCA 6AS7G's wearing various branding (Sylvania & Raytheon) but always thought Tung-Sol made their own tubes.  I just noticed these tonight while going through some older tubes.


----------



## bcowen

Thaddy said:


> I have a question about these Tung-Sol branded 6AS7G's I have.  I got them a while ago and only paid $40 for the pair.  They have the '322' Tung-Sol factory code, however their internal construction does not look like other Tung-Sol 6AS7G's I've seen.  These appears to be the exact same construction as the 1950's RCA black plates, with the flaps/protectors above and below the plates and a top getter.  Think these are just rebranded RCA's?
> 
> I have many pairs of RCA 6AS7G's wearing various branding (Sylvania & Raytheon) but always thought Tung-Sol made their own tubes.  I just noticed these tonight while going through some older tubes.


Those most definitely look like RCA's.  I have a Chatham branded RCA myself. but don't have any TungSol branded 6AS7G's.


----------



## Thaddy

bcowen said:


> Those most definitely look like RCA's.  I have a Chatham branded RCA myself. but don't have any TungSol branded 6AS7G's.


That's exactly what I thought as well.  It was a "Huh!" moment, I didn't realize I had a pair of Tung-Sol _branded _RCA's.  Now, I just checked my Chatham 6AS7G's and they are closer to what I'd expect.  The plates extend through the top and bottom mica and they have double bottom getters.  I'm not sure if the copper rods are unique to Tung-Sol, I've seen them in silver as well.  I think my Tung-Sol 6080's also have the copper rods.

These are some of my favorite tubes, I like them just as much as the top and bottom getter 5998's, and I only paid $40 for the pair before they became popular


----------



## maxpudding

Thaddy said:


> That's exactly what I thought as well.  It was a "Huh!" moment, I didn't realize I had a pair of Tung-Sol _branded _RCA's.  Now, I just checked my Chatham 6AS7G's and they are closer to what I'd expect.  The plates extend through the top and bottom mica and they have double bottom getters.  I'm not sure if the copper rods are unique to Tung-Sol, I've seen them in silver as well.  I think my Tung-Sol 6080's also have the copper rods.
> 
> These are some of my favorite tubes, I like them just as much as the top and bottom getter 5998's, and I only paid $40 for the pair before they became popular


 I’ve seen some Japanese branded tube (NEC) with copper rods 6AS7s, but without the getters.


----------



## bcowen

maxpudding said:


> I’ve seen some Japanese branded tube (NEC) with copper rods 6AS7s, but without the getters.


I have one (had a pair, but broke one, duh). It's an RCA though.






Side by side with an RCA:


----------



## gibosi

Thaddy said:


> I have a question about these Tung-Sol branded 6AS7G's I have.  I got them a while ago and only paid $40 for the pair.  They have the '322' Tung-Sol factory code, however their internal construction does not look like other Tung-Sol 6AS7G's I've seen.  These appears to be the exact same construction as the 1950's RCA black plates, with the flaps/protectors above and below the plates and a top getter.  Think these are just rebranded RCA's?
> 
> I have many pairs of RCA 6AS7G's wearing various branding (Sylvania & Raytheon) but always thought Tung-Sol made their own tubes.  I just noticed these tonight while going through some older tubes.



Yes, those are RCA's.

A little detail. Tung-Sol never made the 6AS7G. In the mid-1950's TS purchased Chatham, which did make the 6AS7G. So prior to that purchase, TS 6AS7Gs were sourced from both RCA and Chatham. Construction tells the truth.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Yes, those are RCA's.
> 
> A little detail. Tung-Sol never made the 6AS7G. In the mid-1950's TS purchased Chatham, which did make the 6AS7G. So prior to that purchase, TS 6AS7Gs were sourced from both RCA and Chatham. Construction tells the truth.


Are you saying that all Tung Sol labeled 6AS7G (unless made by RCA) are Chathams? In other words, if I have a pair of 6AS7G tubes Chatham and Tung Sol (not RCA style), they are both Chathams?
I had a pair of Chathams but one died. Was looking for another one, but I do have a TS so based on this I don't really have to get another Chatham to have a pair.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Are you saying that all Tung Sol labeled 6AS7G (unless made by RCA) are Chathams? In other words, if I have a pair of 6AS7G tubes Chatham and Tung Sol (not RCA style), they are both Chathams?
> I had a pair of Chathams but one died. Was looking for another one, but I do have a TS so based on this I don't really have to get another Chatham to have a pair.



The only American companies that manufactured the 6AS7G were Chatham and RCA. And after Tung-Sol acquired Chatham, the only thing that changed was executive management. These tubes continued to be manufactured in the same Chatham factory. So yes, unless the construction is different, a Tung-Sol and a Chatham can be considered a pair.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> The only American companies that manufactured the 6AS7G were Chatham and RCA. And after Tung-Sol acquired Chatham, the only thing that changed was executive management. These tubes continued to be manufactured in the same Chatham factory. So yes, unless the construction is different, a Tung-Sol and a Chatham can be considered a pair.


Thanks.
I also have pairs of Tung Sol and Chatham 6080 tubes but I assume that they were made in different factories- they certainly sound very different.


----------



## Flisker

Thaddy said:


> That's exactly what I thought as well.  It was a "Huh!" moment, I didn't realize I had a pair of Tung-Sol _branded _RCA's.  Now, I just checked my Chatham 6AS7G's and they are closer to what I'd expect.  The plates extend through the top and bottom mica and they have double bottom getters.  I'm not sure if the copper rods are unique to Tung-Sol, I've seen them in silver as well.  I think my Tung-Sol 6080's also have the copper rods.
> 
> *These are some of my favorite tubes, I like them just as much as the top and bottom getter 5998's,* and I only paid $40 for the pair before they became popular


This is music to my ears 

I was looking for some 6AS7G's since I don't have any, except for GEC's. And because I have Chathams 2399's and those have the copper rod and sound amazing, don't have the 5998 bass bloat, I ended up buying Chatham 6AS7G's too, 162$ for 4x NOS tubes. Excited to give em a try.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (May 23, 2022)

Flisker said:


> This is music to my ears
> 
> I was looking for some 6AS7G's since I don't have any, except for GEC's. And because I have Chathams 2399's and those have the copper rod and sound amazing, don't have the 5998 bass bloat, I ended up buying Chatham 6AS7G's too, 162$ for 4x NOS tubes. Excited to give em a try.


So that was You who bought them at ebay? Congrats! I saw this bid, very tempting, but decided not to buy. I have bought already 6 chathams 6as7 from this seller (have 13 in total) so time to stop.


----------



## Flisker (May 23, 2022)

bpiotrow13 said:


> So that was You who bought them at ebay? Congrats! I saw this bid, very tempting, but decided not to buy. I have bought already 6 chathams 6as7 from this seller (have 13 in total) so time to hold on.


Yea, hehe, thank you. I actually only had 165$ as max bid, so I got lucky.


----------



## JazzVinyl

bpiotrow13 said:


> So that was You who bought them at ebay? Congrats! I saw this bid, very tempting, but decided not to buy. I have bought already 6 chathams 6as7 from this seller (have 13 in total) so time to stop.



13  Seems like way more than a lifetime's worth of Chathams 

Good call


----------



## bpiotrow13

Flisker said:


> Yea, hehe, thank you. I actually only had 165$ as max bid, so I got lucky.


Good, luck sometimes happens chatham 6as7 have beautiful midrange.

Nice tubes You have. I think i will never be able to buy GEC 6as7.

Are chatham 2399 different to Tung Sol 5998? They look similar. I have TS 5998 branded Tung Sol and IBM. I would think chatham 2399 this is only a different branding of TS5998? I have seen chatham 5998 as well. But i may be wrong.


----------



## Flisker

bpiotrow13 said:


> Nice tubes You have. I think i will never be able to buy GEC 6as7.


I have one pair, the holy grail cup base GECs and got the straight cap not so long ago because seller was in EU and claimed tubes to be basically NOS. And that's it for me. Won't get more pairs as it's so expensive. Just wanted to hear them. 

The cup base GEC's I got 6 or so years ago I probably my favorite, it's just so smooth from top to bottom. But the price these days.... ooof

Chatham 2399 looks very similar to 5998 Tung Sols but, does not sound the same. It's more transparent and feels somewhat "less bloated" compared to 5998's.

And the grid rods are copper (it's kinda hard to see on this picture I guess)






I have 3 other TS 5998 pairs and they all sound somewhat similar, but the 2399 is not the same at all. But... to be fair, I'm thinking it might be because the tube has been used a lot. I got it with WA2 which I bought 11 years ago I think. (at the beginning of this audio journey  )

So either it's different or it's so smooth, because it has a lot of milage on it, while other 3 5998 pairs are not much used.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (May 23, 2022)

And just to 





Flisker said:


> But... to be fair, I'm thinking it might be because the tube has been used a lot


Thanks, maybe this is the same discussion if Western Electric is the same as Tung Sol 5998. In any case i also have enough stock of 5998, do not want to buy more for these crazy prices. And similar to Your approach with GEC i have just bought Bendix 6080 graphite, just to listen to them. I hope i will like Tung sol 5998/6as7 more as i will not buy more than one pair of bendix


----------



## bpiotrow13 (May 23, 2022)

And to follow discussion on Chatham 6as7, here are mines:





First three are chathams and they are branded as: chatham, RCA (this one is tricky and Tung Sol. The last one is Tung Sol branded RCA.


----------



## Flisker

bpiotrow13 said:


> i have just bought Bendix 6080 graphite, just to listen to them


Some special 6080? Never really looked into those. Would love to hear how those compare to well burned-in 5998's.

Btw, about those Chatham 6AS7G, I'm really impressed with what I'm hearing, at least from Euphoria, will try them in WA2 too in few days.

To be honest, I didn't expect much from those, I just thought... let me buy this so I don't have to keep burning 5998's when I'm just listening to music on background while working/playing something.

So now I'm slightly confused. Are all 6AS7G pretty good ? Or is this one type in particular amazing and rest is meh ?


----------



## mordy

bpiotrow13 said:


> And to follow discussion on Chatham 6as7, here are mines:
> 
> 
> 
> First three are chatham branded: chatham RCA (this one is tricky and Tung Sol. The last one is Tung Sol branded RCA.


I am a little confused - you state that the first three are Chatham branded, but I only see Chatham, RCA and TS?


----------



## mordy

Flisker said:


> Some special 6080? Never really looked into those. Would love to hear how those compare to well burned-in 5998's.
> 
> Btw, about those Chatham 6AS7G, I'm really impressed with what I'm hearing, at least from Euphoria, will try them in WA2 too in few days.
> 
> ...


I remember reading somewhere that there are early cleartop RCA 6AS7G that are supposed to sound better than the regular and widely available silvertop RCA 6AS7G. Can anybody confirm this?


----------



## bpiotrow13 (May 23, 2022)

mordy said:


> I am a little confused - you state that the first three are Chatham branded, but I only see Chatham, RCA and TS?


Sorry, i meant first three are all Chathams but they are branded as: Chatham, RCA and Tung Sol. The last one is RCA but it is branded as Tung Sol.

Corrected the post, hope it is clear now.


----------



## bpiotrow13

Flisker said:


> Some special 6080? Never really looked into those. Would love to hear how those compare to well burned-in 5998's.
> 
> Btw, about those Chatham 6AS7G, I'm really impressed with what I'm hearing, at least from Euphoria, will try them in WA2 too in few days.
> 
> ...



Chatham 6as7 is really good. You also have RCA 6as7 that are quite popular and not much liked as being quite warm. I like them but i like chathams much more.

Bendix 6080 with graphite plates (with holes) is one of the holy grails i think. I will have a chance to listen to them next week once i get them.


----------



## Flisker

mordy said:


> I remember reading somewhere that there are early cleartop RCA 6AS7G that are supposed to sound better than the regular and widely available silvertop RCA 6AS7G. Can anybody confirm this?


I don't want to write super hyped review, but these tubes in Euphoria with the PSVane 6SN7 drivers are really good for the money. Now hearing it I'd probably pay 200$ for pair and be very happy about the trade.


----------



## Flisker

bpiotrow13 said:


> Bendix 6080 with graphite plates (with holes) is one of the holy grails i think. I will have a chance to listen to them next week once i get them.



Is this the tube ?


----------



## bpiotrow13

Flisker said:


> I don't want to write super hyped review, but these tubes in Euphoria with the PSVane 6SN7 drivers are really good for the money. Now hearing it I'd probably pay 200$ for pair and be very happy about the trade.


You mean RCA 6as7?


----------



## bpiotrow13

Flisker said:


> Is this the tube ?


It is, yes. Is it for sale?


----------



## Monsterzero

Earlier in this thread ( i think) someone, perhaps Stavros, mentioned there were at least 5 different Bendix 6080 variations.


----------



## Flisker

bpiotrow13 said:


> You mean RCA 6as7?


No sorry, I mean the Chatham's I just got, that's what mordy was replying to.


bpiotrow13 said:


> It is, yes. Is it for sale?


No it's just pic I found on google from some sold auction.


----------



## leftside

Monsterzero said:


> Earlier in this thread ( i think) someone, perhaps Stavros, mentioned there were at least 5 different Bendix 6080 variations.


Yep! Different plates, different micas, different getters, etc...


----------



## bpiotrow13

Monsterzero said:


> Earlier in this thread ( i think) someone, perhaps Stavros, mentioned there were at least 5 different Bendix 6080 variations.


As always Similarly, when I look closely at my Chathams 6as7 not all are exactly the same. For example my tung sol branded Chathams seem a bit bigger than others.


----------



## mordy

bpiotrow13 said:


> As always Similarly, when I look closely at my Chathams 6as7 not all are exactly the same. For example my tung sol branded Chathams seem a bit bigger than others.


If Chatham sold tubes branded RCA it seems to me that you should be able to pick up RCA branded Chathams for less than the going rate for Chathams. How can I identify them?


----------



## gibosi

bpiotrow13 said:


> Good, luck sometimes happens chatham 6as7 have beautiful midrange.
> 
> Nice tubes You have. I think i will never be able to buy GEC 6as7.
> 
> Are chatham 2399 different to Tung Sol 5998? They look similar. I have TS 5998 branded Tung Sol and IBM. I would think chatham 2399 this is only a different branding of TS5998? I have seen chatham 5998 as well. But i may be wrong.



2399 is not a different kind of 5998. It is a truncated version of IBM's inventory number for the 5998.

IBM purchased tons of 5998 for use in their early computers. And in fact, IBM purchased so many of them, that Chatham / Tung Sol often put IBM's part number on these tubes: 3002399, or 2399 for short. Otherwise, they are just a 5998. Nothing special.

If they sound different, it is likely due to different dates of manufacture.


----------



## Thaddy

mordy said:


> I remember reading somewhere that there are early cleartop RCA 6AS7G that are supposed to sound better than the regular and widely available silvertop RCA 6AS7G. Can anybody confirm this?


I have two pairs of clear top RCA 6AS7G's from 1951 (I believe that year is correct).  Compared to my other RCA's, these have a bottom getter.  They sound very nice, I love having a few pairs on hand and regularly roll them into my WA22.


----------



## mordy

Thaddy said:


> I have two pairs of clear top RCA 6AS7G's from 1951 (I believe that year is correct).  Compared to my other RCA's, these have a bottom getter.  They sound very nice, I love having a few pairs on hand and regularly roll them into my WA22.


I am sure that the year is correct, the early ones I have are from 1953 and 1954 and they are not cleartops.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> 2399 is not a different kind of 5998. It is a truncated version of IBM's inventory number for the 5998.
> 
> IBM purchased tons of 5998 for use in their early computers. And in fact, IBM purchased so many of them, that Chatham / Tung Sol often put IBM's part number on these tubes: 3002399, or 2399 for short. Otherwise, they are just a 5998. Nothing special.
> 
> If they sound different, it is likely due to different dates of manufacture.


The poor guy in the picture has to look for the bad tube among 19,000 tubes...


----------



## No Deal

When paired with another similar tube, how much does the two tubes vintage matter if they both test good?


----------



## mordy

No Deal said:


> When paired with another similar tube, how much does the two tubes vintage matter if they both test good?


In many amps the matching of the tubes doesn't matter much. You may not be able to hear the difference between a pair of the same tubes where one measures NOS and the other other barely good.

When you say similar tube, I don't know exactly what you mean. There are times when two different, but similar tubes, may complement each other in sound (ECC31/FDD20 as an example), and there are times where the same production tube from different years may sound different enough to be noticeable.


----------



## No Deal

mordy said:


> In many amps the matching of the tubes doesn't matter much. You may not be able to hear the difference between a pair of the same tubes where one measures NOS and the other other barely good.
> 
> When you say similar tube, I don't know exactly what you mean. There are times when two different, but similar tubes, may complement each other in sound (ECC31/FDD20 as an example), and there are times where the same production tube from different years may sound different enough to be noticeable.


Both tubes would be 5998s. I am trying to make a pair.   I own one (Tung Sol) now and I have not seen another that is the same year or version as the one that I have.  Wasn't certain if it matters.


----------



## mordy

No Deal said:


> Both tubes would be 5998s. I am trying to make a pair.   I own one (Tung Sol) now and I have not seen another that is the same year or version as the one that I have.  Wasn't certain if it matters.


I don't think it makes much of a difference. I myself have an IBM and a Tung Sol 5998 pair and as long as I don't look at the tubes it does not bother me LOL! 
The two tubes sound pretty much the same, but I can understand people that want that the tubes should look exactly the same.


----------



## bpiotrow13

mordy said:


> If Chatham sold tubes branded RCA it seems to me that you should be able to pick up RCA branded Chathams for less than the going rate for Chathams. How can I identify them?


Rca branded Chathams are very rare. Except for mine i have seen them only once...


----------



## bpiotrow13

gibosi said:


> 2399 is not a different kind of 5998. It is a truncated version of IBM's inventory number for the 5998.
> 
> IBM purchased tons of 5998 for use in their early computers. And in fact, IBM purchased so many of them, that Chatham / Tung Sol often put IBM's part number on these tubes: 3002399, or 2399 for short. Otherwise, they are just a 5998. Nothing special.
> 
> If they sound different, it is likely due to different dates of manufacture.


Thanks, very helpful.


----------



## Flisker

mordy said:


> as long as I don't look at the tubes it does not bother me LOL!


Exactly 

I would go crazy, trying to listen to different tubes. Different date codes, that I can manage, but different construction or different branding would be big struggle


----------



## mordy (May 24, 2022)

Flisker said:


> Exactly
> 
> I would go crazy, trying to listen to different tubes. Different date codes, that I can manage, but different construction or different branding would be big struggle


I know the feeling, but if the tubes look different but sound very good together, it is OK with me. Certain early tubes, even the same brand and same designation, may come in many different variations. For me, part of the challenge of acquiring tubes is to get them at a good price. Often this means buying odd lots and sometimes singles. I end up with a bunch of tubes that don't have exact pairs, and I try to match two of the same type and brand and the same or similar construction. Often they sound almost the same or the same, even if they have different construction.
I have also found that when it comes to older tubes many times two tubes from the same year and the same designation may be different in size, one being taller or shorter than the other. Recently I bought four Ken-Rad 6J5GT (labeled BRIMAR) from the 1940's and every single tube was a different size than the other...- I had to laugh seeing it...
PS: I once saw in a shoe store a mismatched pair on sale (7 and 7 1/2). The sign said "Near Pair." 
Well, some of the tube combinations I use and like are "near pairs."


----------



## No Deal

Flisker said:


> Exactly
> 
> I would go crazy, trying to listen to different tubes. Different date codes, that I can manage, but different construction or different branding would be big struggle


If I can acquire the second Tung Sol it would be my third and last pair.  I have been trying to find one that is the same age as the one that I have. I am ready to give up.  In the meantime I have found the 6AS7g to be a very nice tube.


----------



## Thaddy

No Deal said:


> If I can acquire the second Tung Sol it would be my third and last pair.  I have been trying to find one that is the same age as the one that I have. I am ready to give up.  In the meantime I have found the 6AS7g to be a very nice tube.


I'll send you a PM.


----------



## mordy

Thaddy said:


> I'll send you a PM.





No Deal said:


> If I can acquire the second Tung Sol it would be my third and last pair.  I have been trying to find one that is the same age as the one that I have. I am ready to give up.  In the meantime I have found the 6AS7g to be a very nice tube.


Don't give up! Tubes were made in the millions, and if you are patient, they will surface and come up for sale. It may take a while, but they will come up...


----------



## exchez

I've seen GEC/MWT 6AS7G tubes with a non-curved brown base and cup getters have either a Z or a 4 in the lower right corner of the A1834 box. I believe the Z stands for the Hammersmith factory, but does anyone know what the 4 stands for?


----------



## Monsterzero

exchez said:


> I believe the Z stands for the Hammersmith


Did somebody say "Hammersmith"?!?
One of the best live albums ever!


----------



## exchez

Monsterzero said:


> Did somebody say "Hammersmith"?!?
> One of the best live albums ever!


Once I get a matching A1834 it will be the first thing I listen to


----------



## gibosi

exchez said:


> I've seen GEC/MWT 6AS7G tubes with a non-curved brown base and cup getters have either a Z or a 4 in the lower right corner of the A1834 box. I believe the Z stands for the Hammersmith factory, but does anyone know what the 4 stands for?



Yes, Z indicates Hammersmith, London. The number 4 often appears on GEC M-OV tubes but I have no idea what it actually means.


----------



## pravous

Felt like it took forever to find my first 5998 but they do pop up on occasion.   Took a huge risk on a Japanese auction earlier this year. 




Testing them was quite the emotional roller coaster.  1st and 3rd tube tested were DOA.  Ended up with 3 nos pairs and one perfectly matched copper rod 5998


----------



## mordy

I know that business ethics vary across the globe. Did the Japanese seller make any allowance for the DOA tubes?


----------



## bpiotrow13

pravous said:


> Felt like it took forever to find my first 5998 but they do pop up on occasion.   Took a huge risk on a Japanese auction earlier this year.
> 
> Testing them was quite the emotional roller coaster.  1st and 3rd tube tested were DOA.  Ended up with 3 nos pairs and one perfectly matched copper rod 5998


Congrats! 

I also have o couple of 5998 pairs, but frankly i have not checked them once i got them. I buy spare tubes for future and just only look at them once they are delivered. Maybe i should now check all my stock


----------



## JTbbb

exchez said:


> Once I get a matching A1834 it will be the first thing I listen to


As far as I’m aware the 2523 is physically no different. One number for military supply, the other for civil. Here are pics of mine. How do they compare to your 1834?


----------



## Flisker

pravous said:


> Felt like it took forever to find my first 5998 but they do pop up on occasion.   Took a huge risk on a Japanese auction earlier this year.
> 
> Testing them was quite the emotional roller coaster.  1st and 3rd tube tested were DOA.  Ended up with 3 nos pairs and one perfectly matched copper rod 5998


How do you buy from those Japan auctions ?


----------



## Flisker (May 25, 2022)

Damn... these tubes, most holographic sound I've ever heard. Sounds amazing in Euphoria as well as in WA2. I don't get it. Such a cheap tube.


----------



## pravous

Flisker said:


> How do you buy from those Japan auctions ?


There are some third party company’s that specialize in reshipping auctions from Japanese Auctions.  It is really risky as the descriptions are poorly translated and you won’t know what you bought until the package arrives often months later.   My Dad was based in Tokyo for a bunch of years so I was able to get a better translation of the auction I bid on from a family friend.


----------



## pravous

mordy said:


> I know that business ethics vary across the globe. Did the Japanese seller make any allowance for the DOA tubes?


Most of the Auctions for tubes I saw listed them as “Junk” with no guaranties or returns.


----------



## pravous

I have a pair of cv2523 acquired from a fellow Head-fier.  The interesting thing about this pair is that it has the later style ring getter instead of the inverted cup style getter.  I am guessing these were produced in 1969.  








They sound fantastic in the Airmid.


----------



## JTbbb

pravous said:


> I have a pair of cv2523 acquired from a fellow Head-fier.  The interesting thing about this pair is that it has the later style ring getter instead of the inverted cup style getter.  I am guessing these were produced in 1969.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My single is April 1967


----------



## Thaddy

Flisker said:


> Damn... these tubes, most holographic sound I've ever heard. Sounds amazing in Euphoria as well as in WA2. I don't get it. Such a cheap tube.


IMO if you can get them for a fair price (which is becoming harder and harder to do), the Chatham 6AS7G's are one of the best value tubes out there.  I'm also a very big fan of the Tung-Sol 6080.


----------



## Flisker

pravous said:


> I have a pair of cv2523 acquired from a fellow Head-fier.  The interesting thing about this pair is that it has the later style ring getter instead of the inverted cup style getter.  I am guessing these were produced in 1969.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are these cv2523 same as the other ones with code A1834?


----------



## JTbbb

Flisker said:


> Are these cv2523 same as the other ones with code A1834?


Yes I believe so. One number for military, the other civil. Not sure which is which though.


----------



## mordy (May 25, 2022)

JTbbb said:


> Yes I believe so. One number for military, the other civil. Not sure which is which though.


This will clarify that CV numbers are British military nomenclature in use since 1942:
_"CV marked valve_​
_CV most probably stands for Common Valve, though the actual reason is vague. CV numbers were applied to valves used by the British Services, gradually replacing the Army, Navy and Air Force nomenclature in use at that time. In addition a number of valves used by the GPO were given CV numbers. CV numbers have been around since the early 1940's - CV1 was listed in the "Service List of Valves for Special Purposes" published by the Inter-Service Technical Valve Committee in 1941, though at that time their own Service List of Preferred Valves does not appear to have had any CV valves in. Certainly they were in use in 1942 as the specification sheet for the CV44 is dated 9/4/42, and also the type approval date of CV8 is given as 1942."_

I also want to point out that the US military used the VT designation on tubes. After a long and extensive research I finally found out what *VT* stands for: *Vacuum Tube *lol.



PS: I never heard of the 39/44 tube before, but I figured out why the military called it VT-49. The VT-49 is from 1935 and replaced the 39 and 44 tubes from 1932. Military logic should have called this tube VT-34 but there already was a 34 tube (1930) so they called the 34 tube VT-54 and the 39/44 tube VT-49. Makes sense - no?


----------



## bpiotrow13

Flisker said:


> Sounds amazing in Euphoria as well as in WA2. I don't get it. Such a cheap tube.


It is indeed a good good tube, but the more positive things we write about it here, the more expensive it is...


----------



## nykobing

bpiotrow13 said:


> Rca branded Chathams are very rare. Except for mine i have seen them only once...


I have one that is stamped both, this is the same tube.


----------



## mordy

nykobing said:


> I have one that is stamped both, this is the same tube.


Trying to figure out the date codes - 503 and C W. There is an RCA date code CW = April 1970. Don't know what 503 means; maybe 3rd week 1965?


----------



## CAJames

mordy said:


> ... Don't know what 503 means; maybe 3rd week 1965?


----------



## mordy (May 25, 2022)

CAJames said:


>


Good shot, but I think the tube was manufactured before HTTP existed…
HTTP was first mentioned in 1991 and became standard in 1997.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Trying to figure out the date codes - 503 and C W. There is an RCA date code CW = April 1970. Don't know what 503 means; maybe 3rd week 1965?



I doubt that CW is a date code. Typically, 503 would be the third week of 1955. And in that photo, to the left, I see a few more numbers, 434... ?


----------



## nykobing

gibosi said:


> I doubt that CW is a date code. Typically, 503 would be the third week of 1955. And in that photo, to the left, I see a few more numbers, 434... ?


434 J

That is what is on the tube.


----------



## gibosi

nykobing said:


> 434 J
> 
> That is what is on the tube.



A stab in the dark...  Tung-Sol date: 1954, week 34. Sold to RCA and their date is usually a shipping date, so it was labeled and shipped out in 1955, week 3.

But sometimes it is best not to try to be too precise, so I would date it sometime between 1954 and 1955.


----------



## mordy (May 25, 2022)

gibosi said:


> A stab in the dark...  Tung-Sol date: 1954, week 34. Sold to RCA and their date is usually a shipping date, so it was labeled and shipped out in 1955, week 3.
> 
> But sometimes it is best not to try to be too precise, so I would date it sometime between 1954 and 1955.


Tung Sol bought Chatham in the 1950's but I don't know which year. Possibly the RCA labeled tubes were bought from Chatham before Tung Sol bought them?

Came across an interesting document - a Tung Sol wholesale price list from 1959. Looking at the prices and adjusting for inflation you will see that the lowest wholesale price for a 6AS7G is $2.71. If you adjust for inflation the corresponding 2022 price would be $26.92.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.one-electron.com/Archives/Tube/Tung-Sol/Tung-Sol%201959%20OEM%20Price%20List.pdf

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1959?amount=2.71

Also interesting is that four different factories are listed. Many Tung Sol tubes have the number 3 on top of the tube and I thought that it could be one of the factory codes, but in the price list they all use letters.


----------



## Flisker

bpiotrow13 said:


> It is indeed a good good tube, but the more positive things we write about it here, the more expensive it is...


Yea... I was trying not to comment on it


----------



## keanej6

mordy said:


> I remember reading somewhere that there are early cleartop RCA 6AS7G that are supposed to sound better than the regular and widely available silvertop RCA 6AS7G. Can anybody confirm this?


It's close, but i prefer the clear top vs the chrome top.


----------



## mordy

Went through my stash of RCA 6AS7G tubes. 10 tubes from 1953 to 1972. No cleartops and no Chathams. 
One pair is labeled Sylvania with a code YCE - don't know what it means.


----------



## Alson Chua

which is the most wide soundtage and holograhic sound among all the tube? 6AS7G, 6080, 5998 and 421A? i dont really like too warm as i've used to the Winged C 6h13C sound.


----------



## Flisker

Alson Chua said:


> which is the most wide soundtage and holograhic sound among all the tube? 6AS7G, 6080, 5998 and 421A? i dont really like too warm as i've used to the Winged C 6h13C sound.


I don't have 421A's, but from the rest the best to my ears are for sure 6AS7G GECs.

Interesting note on this question might be, that Euphoria doesn't really have massive soundstage when compared to WA2.

Also I found the russian tubes to be quite weird, good bottom end but that was about it. And soundstage being quite small.


----------



## Alson Chua

Flisker said:


> I don't have 421A's, but from the rest the best to my ears are for sure 6AS7G GECs.
> 
> Interesting note on this question might be, that Euphoria doesn't really have massive soundstage when compared to WA2.
> 
> Also I found the russian tubes to be quite weird, good bottom end but that was about it. And soundstage being quite small.


I read from somewhere else, someone said Winged C has wider soundstage than GEC 6AS7G. so i wondered does TS 5998 stage is wider/bigger?


----------



## bpiotrow13

Flisker said:


> I don't have 421A's, but from the rest the best to my ears are for sure 6AS7G GECs.


Not the cheapest answer Maybe GEC 6080 would be this direction for less money.



Flisker said:


> Interesting note on this question might be, that Euphoria doesn't really have massive soundstage when compared to WA2.


I have never listened to Euforia, but one of the reasons I sold my WA2 was that its soundstage was artificially wide for me. WA3 was much more natural with this respect.


----------



## Flisker

Alson Chua said:


> I read from somewhere else, someone said Winged C has wider soundstage than GEC 6AS7G. so i wondered does TS 5998 stage is wider/bigger?


Maybe the Winged-C's are inconsistent, I got a pair with Elise, put about 200 hours on them and still didn't em at all, soundstage wasn't impressive, treble was annoying, nothing spectacular when it comes to mids, it sounds overall weird and unappealing to me, except for the bass, that's really tight and snappy.

Also got second pair with Euphoria, but didn't both even trying them out after experience with the first pair.

The GEC 6AS7G is just very well balanced, solid soundstage, overall effortless yet detailed sound, there is no harshness, it's perfect mix.

TS 5998 is also amazing but it has booster bottom end and compared to GEC it sounds somewhat bloated to my ears. Soundstage is good on these, similar to GEC I'd say. But it's not as smooth overall either.

I should point out that these observations are mostly when using it with HD650, because that's just what I enjoy the most.

I'd just recommend trying anything other than the Winged C's. Some other 6AS7G's might  be also great pick, I only recently got first pair othe than the GEC's and I think those are amazing for the price. But there seems to be a lot of variation from what I read, so might be hit or miss situation.

In the end I think 5998's won't dissapoint you. The GEC's are sure worth considering, if you don't mind burning 500$+ for some decent pair.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (May 27, 2022)

nykobing said:


> I have one that is stamped both, this is the same tube.


Very interesting, I have never seen such branding. Just to add one more variant, this is the Chatham branded RCA.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/woo-wa2-tube-rolling-recommendations.393811/post-16875088


----------



## Flisker

bpiotrow13 said:


> Not the cheapest answer Maybe GEC 6080 would be this direction for less money.


Yea the price is ridiculous, it's kinda same as the 421A's. So that's only if someone doesn't really care that much about the price/performance.


bpiotrow13 said:


> I have never listened to Euforia, but one of the reasons I sold my WA2 was that its soundstage was artificially wide for me. WA3 was much more natural with this respect.


That's interesting experience. I use it mostly with HD650 which would make sense I guess. But I loved it with HD800S very much also.
The issue is when one wants to use it with some low impedance headphones, that's just no-go. Can't even drive 150 ohm HD660S properly.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (May 27, 2022)

Flisker said:


> That's interesting experience. I use it mostly with HD650 which would make sense I guess. But I loved it with HD800S very much also.
> The issue is when one wants to use it with some low impedance headphones, that's just no-go. Can't even driver 150 ohm HD660S properly.


OLTs have their limitations. One way to make WA2 better for lower impedance HPs is to use it with Tung Sol 5998 or Tung Sol 7236. Those tubes drive lower impedance HPs better.

As for soundstage it is all up to personal preferences. I like intimate warmer sound, I prefer the soundstage to be deeper than wider. I also prefer ecc82 driver tubes to ecc88, so I decided to go for custom OTL rather than Woo wa 2 or 3. But again, it is very subjective and I know many persons loving Woo wa2 with HD 800.


----------



## bpiotrow13

Flisker said:


> if you don't mind burning 500$+ for some decent pair.


I am afraid is is now much more than USD 500... If You see one pair for USD 500 let me know on PM


----------



## Tom-s

Alson Chua said:


> which is the most wide soundtage and holograhic sound among all the tube? 6AS7G, 6080, 5998 and 421A? i dont really like too warm as i've used to the Winged C 6h13C sound.



In my experience with this tube family I'd recommend a Bendix 6080 for soundstage / instrument separation. It goes wider/deeper than any other in this aspect.


----------



## Dogmatrix

bpiotrow13 said:


> I am afraid is is now much more than USD 500... If You see one pair for USD 500 let me know on PM


Looking for pairs you will pay a premium but if you buy one at a time it's not so bad
I paid under $150 US for this on EBay a little over a month ago


----------



## bpiotrow13

Dogmatrix said:


> Looking for pairs you will pay a premium but if you buy one at a time it's not so bad
> I paid under $150 US for this on EBay a little over a month ago


Wow, thanks, need to go for a hunt than. Except for WE 421a (which seems to be the same as TS5998) this is the only type of 6as7 family I do not have, at least among widely recognised brands.


----------



## JTbbb

Alson Chua said:


> which is the most wide soundtage and holograhic sound among all the tube? 6AS7G, 6080, 5998 and 421A? i dont really like too warm as i've used to the Winged C 6h13C sound.


I have the Euforia AE with HD800S and found the GEC 6AS7G a little too warm for my taste, preferring 5998’s


----------



## CaptainFantastic

bpiotrow13 said:


> Wow, thanks, need to go for a hunt than. Except for WE 421a (which seems to be the same as TS5998) this is the only type of 6as7 family I do not have, at least among widely recognised brands.



I am the farthest thing from an expert, but my use of four 421As and at least as many 5998s confirmed that there must be some difference between the two models. All 421As behaved in a certain way in my amp, all 5998s the other way on a certain minor point. My conclusion - there must be some internal difference.


----------



## Flisker

bpiotrow13 said:


> I am afraid is is now much more than USD 500... If You see one pair for USD 500 let me know on PM


I got lucky and got NOS pair for 500$, but they don't seem to pop up too often.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (May 27, 2022)

CaptainFantastic said:


> I am the farthest thing from an expert, but my use of four 421As and at least as many 5998s confirmed that there must be some difference between the two models. All 421As behaved in a certain way in my amp, all 5998s the other way on a certain minor point. My conclusion - there must be some internal difference.


Could be, opinions here are really diverse Given the prices I feel really lucky I have some TS 5998 and will probably never have chance to listen to WE421.


----------



## Alson Chua

JTbbb said:


> I have the Euforia AE with HD800S and found the GEC 6AS7G a little too warm for my taste, preferring 5998’s





Tom-s said:


> In my experience with this tube family I'd recommend a Bendix 6080 for soundstage / instrument separation. It goes wider/deeper than any other in this aspect.





Flisker said:


> Maybe the Winged-C's are inconsistent, I got a pair with Elise, put about 200 hours on them and still didn't em at all, soundstage wasn't impressive, treble was annoying, nothing spectacular when it comes to mids, it sounds overall weird and unappealing to me, except for the bass, that's really tight and snappy.
> 
> Also got second pair with Euphoria, but didn't both even trying them out after experience with the first pair.
> 
> ...


Guess 5998 its pretty solid with so many recommendations! will try to hunt for a pair. Thanks for all the recommendations guys  Also will have a look on Bendix 6080 sounds like pretty solid. Cause i have Euforia and i have HD800s too. If its too warm like a philip GE 6080 its no good lol..


----------



## mordy

Flisker said:


> I got lucky and got NOS pair for 500$, but they don't seem to pop up too often.


Except for the WE421A I have all the power tubes discussed above. IMHO the sound you get from them depends on how your amp was designed and your ancillary equipment. This is the reason you have so many different opinions. In other words, certain tubes can sound great in one amp and meh in another amp. That said, certain tubes do well in almost any amp. In the Elise/Euforia I liked the GEC 6080 the best.
The top tubes among others and in no special order are Bendix 6080, GEC 6AS7G/6080, Tung Sol 5998, Chatham 6AS7G etc.
IMHO I think of the power tubes as a rhythm section in a band - they set the foundation, but always in connection with the synergy of the driver tubes.
Regarding the sound stage width I feel that this is more influenced by the driver tubes.
Then you have amps that can use multiple tubes as power tubes - four or six, but that is a different ball game...And hybrids that only use driver tubes and solid state instead of power tubes....


----------



## Alson Chua

mordy said:


> Except for the WE421A I have all the power tubes discussed above. IMHO the sound you get from them depends on how your amp was designed and your ancillary equipment. This is the reason you have so many different opinions. In other words, certain tubes can sound great in one amp and meh in another amp. That said, certain tubes do well in almost any amp. In the Elise/Euforia I liked the GEC 6080 the best.
> The top tubes among others and in no special order are Bendix 6080, GEC 6AS7G/6080, Tung Sol 5998, Chatham 6AS7G etc.
> IMHO I think of the power tubes as a rhythm section in a band - they set the foundation, but always in connection with the synergy of the driver tubes.
> Regarding the sound stage width I feel that this is more influenced by the driver tubes.
> Then you have amps that can use multiple tubes as power tubes - four or six, but that is a different ball game...And hybrids that only use driver tubes and solid state instead of power tubes....


SO you suggest changing the driver tube first? Currently, my driver tube is the one that comes with euforia. PsVane CV-181 Mk2 “Gold”. what good driver tube to upgrade from this. I prefer good stage and depth. neutral kind. not too warm.


----------



## CAJames (May 27, 2022)

Re: GEC. I’ve never heard a GEC 6AS7 or 6080 but pairs of A2293s with the eBay adapter are practically free in comparison and sound really good. GEC quality at an ECG price if you will.


----------



## Odin412

I've never heard a 421A. I'm hoping the WE will restart the production of them, but I'm worried what the price will be...


----------



## Thaddy

mordy said:


> Went through my stash of RCA 6AS7G tubes. 10 tubes from 1953 to 1972. No cleartops and no Chathams.
> One pair is labeled Sylvania with a code YCE - don't know what it means.


Very interesting.  I have a pair from late 1951 and another from early 1952 and both are clear tops/bottom getters.  I _think _my RCA-branded top getters are from 1956 (the code is 56-52).  I also have some Tung-Sol and Raytheon-branded tubes, but I'm not sure when they were made.  It seems that 1952/1953 is when some production changes might have occurred?


----------



## CAJames (May 27, 2022)

Odin412 said:


> I've never heard a 421A. I'm hoping the WE will restart the production of them, but I'm worried what the price will be...



I think that's a long shot, regardless of price, because they aren't guitar tubes. But we can hope...


----------



## mordy

Thaddy said:


> Very interesting.  I have a pair from late 1951 and another from early 1952 and both are clear tops/bottom getters.  I _think _my RCA-branded top getters are from 1956 (the code is 56-52).  I also have some Tung-Sol and Raytheon-branded tubes, but I'm not sure when they were made.  It seems that 1952/1953 is when some production changes might have occurred?


It seems likely that the production changed in 1952/53.
If the Tung Sol tubes have numbers after the 322 (322 is their EIA [Electronics Industry Association] number) they can usually be dated, but if there is a letter code there, it may not be possible to know what it means.
In addition, the Tung Sol number/letter codes indicate the warranty expiration date and not the manufacturing date.
Raytheon tubes may have the military date codes - as your example of 56-52, indicating week 52 (December) 1956.


----------



## JTbbb

mordy said:


> In addition, the Tung Sol number/letter codes indicate the warranty expiration date and not the manufacturing date.


Well I didn’t know that! The question that arises though. What happens if the tubes sit in a warehouse for a year or two, or even longer?


----------



## mordy

JTbbb said:


> Well I didn’t know that! The question that arises though. What happens if the tubes sit in a warehouse for a year or two, or even longer?


Good question! But I would not worry to much - we are all using tubes that are 50 years old and older!


----------



## toddc2 (May 27, 2022)

mordy said:


> Good question! But I would not worry to much - we are all using tubes that are 50 years old and older!


I am pretty sure the US government stashed a few cases of TS 5998's next to the Lost Arc. The warrantee has long expired but maybe they will find them someday...


----------



## Flisker

CAJames said:


> Re: GEC. I’ve never heard a GEC 6AS7 or 6080 but pairs of A2293s with the eBay adapter are practically free in comparison and sound really good. GEC quality at an ECG price if you will.


Can that adapter be used in any amp that can use 6080/6AS7's ?


----------



## JTbbb

mordy said:


> Good question! But I would not worry to much - we are all using tubes that are 50 years old and older!


Likewise the users 😀😀😀


----------



## CAJames (May 27, 2022)

Flisker said:


> Can that adapter be used in any amp that can use 6080/6AS7's ?



As far as I know, but take that FWIW/YMMV/&c. I’m using them in my Woo WA22.


----------



## mordy

JTbbb said:


> Likewise the users 😀😀😀


Well, a few tubes from the early 40’s are older than me…


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Well, a few tubes from the early 40’s are older than me…



And I've got some Type 27's that were manufactured around 1930, and they still sound fine.


----------



## LoryWiv

CAJames said:


> Re: GEC. I’ve never heard a GEC 6AS7 or 6080 but pairs of A2293s with the eBay adapter are practically free in comparison and sound really good. GEC quality at an ECG price if you will.


That's a good tip, thanks. The A2293 data sheet states "low impedance" so I wonder if their use in Feliks Elise or Euforia would be a win for running lower impedance headphones, a potential Achilles heel of Elise / Euphoria due to their generally high output impedance. @mordy , any thoughts?


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> That's a good tip, thanks. The A2293 data sheet states "low impedance" so I wonder if their use in Feliks Elise or Euforia would be a win for running lower impedance headphones, a potential Achilles heel of Elise / Euphoria due to their generally high output impedance. @mordy , any thoughts?


If I used the GEC A2293 I would need four or eight tubes in my amp and I already have the GEC 6AS7G tubes so I didn’t feel the need to try them.
Except for my Sennheiser HD201 headphones  (24 ohm) i don’t have any low impedance headphones so can’t be of much help.
I do have the Cetron 6336B 5A tubes that are supposed to be good for low impedance headphones but the Elise/Euforia can’t use them unless you use external power.


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> If I used the GEC A2293 I *would need four or eight tubes in my amp* and I already have the GEC 6AS7G tubes so I didn’t feel the need to try them.
> Except for my Sennheiser HD201 headphones  (24 ohm) i don’t have any low impedance headphones so can’t be of much help.
> I do have the Cetron 6336B 5A tubes that are supposed to be good for low impedance headphones but the Elise/Euforia can’t use them unless you use external power.


Hi @mordy. Not necessarily 4 or 8, A2293 one can just stay well below the total heater current limit and use one per socket. Currently I am running 2 Ken-Rad 6Y6 powers and 2 Brimar 6V6 drivers in Elise, total heater current 3.4 and does not sound "anemic" at all. If one chose to use 4 GEC A2293 noting heater current 0.95 per tube, total draw would be 3.6.

So to me not necessary to use more than 2 or 4, unless I am misunderstanding your comment.


----------



## bcowen

Flisker said:


> Maybe the Winged-C's are inconsistent, I got a pair with Elise, put about 200 hours on them and still didn't em at all, soundstage wasn't impressive, treble was annoying, nothing spectacular when it comes to mids, it sounds overall weird and unappealing to me, except for the bass, that's really tight and snappy.
> 
> Also got second pair with Euphoria, but didn't both even trying them out after experience with the first pair.
> 
> ...


My experience (in my amp) with the Winged C's is that 70's / 80's production needs a warm driver tube, like a gray glass RCA 6SN7.  Even with that, not my favorite tube to be honest.  I think your description of the treble being "annoying" states it perfectly -- not that it's necessarily bright or fatiguing, it just doesn't sound natural and constantly calls your attention to it.  The 1950s production tubes are much, much better.  Still not favorites personally, but they are pretty decent tubes all around with better treble, and not too long ago you could still get them pretty cheap.


----------



## gibosi (May 28, 2022)

bcowen said:


> My experience (in my amp) with the Winged C's is that 70's / 80's production needs a warm driver tube, like a gray glass RCA 6SN7.  Even with that, not my favorite tube to be honest.  I think your description of the treble being "annoying" states it perfectly -- not that it's necessarily bright or fatiguing, it just doesn't sound natural and constantly calls your attention to it.  The 1950s production tubes are much, much better.  Still not favorites personally, but they are pretty decent tubes all around with better treble, and not too long ago you could still get them pretty cheap.



I would agree. I'm currently running 6N5S, mid 1950's, with a Philips Holland-made rectifier and a couple Tung-Sol triodes and it is surprisingly good (to my old and worn out ears).


----------



## bpiotrow13

CAJames said:


> Re: GEC. I’ve never heard a GEC 6AS7 or 6080 but pairs of A2293s with the eBay adapter are practically free in comparison and sound really good. GEC quality at an ECG price if you will.


Have the same, but it looks kind of strange with this adapter


----------



## bpiotrow13

Alson Chua said:


> SO you suggest changing the driver tube first? Currently, my driver tube is the one that comes with euforia. PsVane CV-181 Mk2 “Gold”. what good driver tube to upgrade from this. I prefer good stage and depth. neutral kind. not too warm.


It is not a bad tube and it sounds as You describe so maybe no upgrade is necessary


----------



## bpiotrow13

mordy said:


> Good question! But I would not worry to much - we are all using tubes that are 50 years old and older!


True, i have just bought driver mullards produced in 1955. Almost 80 years old!


----------



## Alson Chua

bpiotrow13 said:


> It is not a bad tube and it sounds as You describe so maybe no upgrade is necessary


Yup true. I decided to get 5998 and keep the PSvane


----------



## Odin412

bpiotrow13 said:


> True, i have just bought driver mullards produced in 1955. Almost 80 years old!


I think it's cool to be able to buy old stuff that still works. I recently bought a tube that was made in 1943 and still works perfectly. They built things to last back then.


----------



## mordy

LoryWiv said:


> Hi @mordy. Not necessarily 4 or 8, A2293 one can just stay well below the total heater current limit and use one per socket. Currently I am running 2 Ken-Rad 6Y6 powers and 2 Brimar 6V6 drivers in Elise, total heater current 3.4 and does not sound "anemic" at all. If one chose to use 4 GEC A2293 noting heater current 0.95 per tube, total draw would be 3.6.
> 
> So to me not necessary to use more than 2 or 4, unless I am misunderstanding your comment.


My amp uses dual triodes for the power tubes and always in pairs. The A2293 is a single triode and therefore I would need two dual adapters and four tubes to replicate two dual triodes. If you have an amp that just uses one driver tube and one power tube you only need one pair of the A2293 tubes.


----------



## CAJames

Odin412 said:


> I think it's cool to be able to buy old stuff that still works. I recently bought a tube that was made in 1943 and still works perfectly. They built things to last back then.



Yeah, I somehow doubt they are going to be saying that about Windows laptops in 80 years... .


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> My amp uses dual triodes for the power tubes and always in pairs. The A2293 is a single triode and therefore I would need two dual adapters and four tubes to replicate two dual triodes. If you have an amp that just uses one driver tube and one power tube you only need one pair of the A2293 tubes.


Point taken, @mordy, thanks for clarifying!


----------



## jonathan c

CAJames said:


> Yeah, I somehow doubt they are going to be saying that about Windows laptops in 80 years... .


My abacus 🧮 works fine! 😂


----------



## No Deal

I admittedly do not understand one tube tester's readings vs the next.  It has been a while since I had a need to test a tube.  Can someone tell me what an acceptable for purchase reading would be for a TV7 tested 421A?


----------



## CAJames (May 30, 2022)

No Deal said:


> I admittedly do not understand one tube tester's readings vs the next.  It has been a while since I had a need to test a tube.  Can someone tell me what an acceptable for purchase reading would be for a TV7 tested 421A?



According to my TV-7D/U chart the minimum reading is "40" which is a Gm of 5000. The test data for a 421A is a little different from a 6AS7/6080. Of course how tube tester readings correspond to audio performance is a whole different discussion


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> And I've got some Type 27's that were manufactured around 1930, and they still sound fine.



This is what is really amazing to me, that some of these tubes that are 80-90 years old and work flawlessly.
This is really cool to me. I usually always prefer the older if given the choice.


----------



## toddc2

CAJames said:


> According to my TV-7D/U chart the minimum reading is "40" which is a Gm of 5000. The test data for a 421A is a little different from a 6AS7/6080. Of course how tube tester readings correspond to audio performance is a whole different discussion


Most of the recent listing I've seen for the 421A have been tested on a TV-7 with Min Good as 40. The test results are all around 65-70 or so although I've seen a few SOLD ads with results of 80. Does anyone know the NOS bogey for the 421A on  a TV-7?


----------



## CAJames (May 30, 2022)

toddc2 said:


> Most of the recent listing I've seen for the 421A have been tested on a TV-7 with Min Good as 40. The test results are all around 65-70 or so although I've seen a few SOLD ads with results of 80. Does anyone know the NOS bogey for the 421A on  a TV-7?



The long answer is the datasheet value for Gm is 18000 - 20000 which would be (way) off scale on the TV-7, so they are clearly talking about a different operating point (see relevance of tube tester results to audio performance). The short answer is I don't know  That sort of speaks to the intended purpose of tube testers: determining if a tube is bad, not if it is good.


----------



## mordy

CAJames said:


> The long answer is the datasheet value for Gm is 18000 - 20000 which would be (way) off scale on the TV-7, so they are clearly talking about a different operating point (see relevance of tube tester results to audio performance). The short answer is I don't know  That sort of speaks to the intended purpose of tube testers: determining if a tube is bad, not if it is good.


_*The intended purpose of tube testers: determining if a tube is bad, not if it is good.*_
That sounds like the truth!


----------



## bcowen

toddc2 said:


> Most of the recent listing I've seen for the 421A have been tested on a TV-7 with Min Good as 40. The test results are all around 65-70 or so although I've seen a few SOLD ads with results of 80. Does anyone know the NOS bogey for the 421A on  a TV-7?


Several different companies made the TV-7, but most were made by Hickok.  The minimum good value with most all Hickoks is 60% - 65% of bogey, so that would put bogey right around 70, +/- a few points on the 421A.  There's likely far more variance in the tester readings than the absolute bogey value though, as there are too many TV-7's out there that have been neither rebuilt or calibrated in decades. Unless a seller purposefully points out that their tester** has been rebuilt and calibrated within the last several years, the data provided is suspect at best.

**referring just to vintage testers here, not current or recently manufactured ones.


----------



## Velozity

Just a friendly tip, if anyone needs some tested and auditioned 6AS7G or 2399/5998 tubes, I am going to be selling my entire stash.  I have about 20-24 tubes total I think, mostly Chathams.  I will probably bundle 2 or 4 to sell with the GOTL but the rest are up for grabs.  Classifieds listing coming later this week.  Here's a teaser pic with some of them:


----------



## bpiotrow13

Velozity said:


> Just a friendly tip, if anyone needs some tested and auditioned 6AS7G or 2399/5998 tubes, I am going to be selling my entire stash.  I have about 20-24 tubes total I think, mostly Chathams.  I will probably bundle 2 or 4 to sell with the GOTL but the rest are up for grabs.  Classifieds listing coming later this week.  Here's a teaser pic with some of them:


Man, I do not ask what has made You selling these as this is probably a serious thing, but these tubes are awesone. 

I probably have similar amount of tubes but now see that it is a bif mistake to keep them in the box


----------



## Thaddy

Velozity said:


> Just a friendly tip, if anyone needs some tested and auditioned 6AS7G or 2399/5998 tubes, I am going to be selling my entire stash.  I have about 20-24 tubes total I think, mostly Chathams.  I will probably bundle 2 or 4 to sell with the GOTL but the rest are up for grabs.  Classifieds listing coming later this week.  Here's a teaser pic with some of them:


I've wanting another pair of Chatham/Tung-Sol 6AS7G's, I'd love to snag a pair or two.


----------



## Odin412

Velozity said:


> Just a friendly tip, if anyone needs some tested and auditioned 6AS7G or 2399/5998 tubes, I am going to be selling my entire stash.  I have about 20-24 tubes total I think, mostly Chathams.  I will probably bundle 2 or 4 to sell with the GOTL but the rest are up for grabs.  Classifieds listing coming later this week.  Here's a teaser pic with some of them:


Wow - please let us know when your listing is up!


----------



## JTbbb

If anyone is looking for WE421a/5998, I have some tested matched pairs available. As well as Tungsol chrome top 5998’s, I have one pair Chatham clear top, bottom getters.


----------



## Adnan Firoze (Jun 5, 2022)

Hi, I just got the WA22. I have a sale pending/booked with this gentleman. Could the community experts please help verify if this is legit WE? Thanks.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649836892-stc-western-electric-421a-tubes/


----------



## JTbbb

Adnan Firoze said:


> Hi, I just got the WA22. I have a sale pending/booked with this gentleman. Could the community experts please help verify if this is legit WEs? Thanks.
> 
> https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649836892-stc-western-electric-421a-tubes/


They are not legit. WE421a’s do not have chrome domes. And one of those tubes has.


----------



## Adnan Firoze

JTbbb said:


> They are not legit. WE421a’s do not have chrome domes. And one of those tubes has.



Thanks so much. Dodged a bullet It seems . Really appreciate it.


----------



## attmci

Adnan Firoze said:


> Thanks so much. Dodged a bullet It seems . Really appreciate it.


BangyBang


----------



## NE 6AS7G USSR

I found this forum through Google search, and was wondering if any of you had interest in purchasing any National Electronics 6AS7G tubes (have several) made in USSR?  If this isnt appropriate, please let me know and I'll either put in the the classifieds section or Ebay.

How to I insert picture without url?


----------



## bcowen

NE 6AS7G USSR said:


> I found this forum through Google search, and was wondering if any of you had interest in purchasing any National Electronics 6AS7G tubes (have several) made in USSR?  If this isnt appropriate, please let me know and I'll either put in the the classifieds section or Ebay.
> 
> How to I insert picture without url?


The classifieds section here is the best place to post for sale ads.  You can insert a picture by pasting a screenshot if you don't have a URL.

Kind of like this:


----------



## johnston21

I heard a radio article on CBC just this week on this subject…shortages / hoarding / desire of sound distortion.


----------



## Thaddy (Jun 17, 2022)

I was about to roll these 1951 RCA’s into my WA22 until I realized two things with this tube. The getter appears broke, and there is a brownish material that looks to be between the base and tube. I’ve listened to these in the past but never noticed if these issues were always present. For now this tube is on the bench. Is this tube a goner or should it be ok to use?


----------



## bcowen

Thaddy said:


> I was about to roll these 1951 RCA’s into my WA22 until I realized two things with this tube. The getter appears broke, and there is a brownish material that looks to be between the base and tube. I’ve listened to these in the past but never noticed if these issues were always present. For now this tube is on the bench. Is this tube a goner or should it be ok to use?


The brownish stuff between the base and glass is likely just glue or adhesive that has oozed out.  Nothing to worry about.  If the getter (holder) is broken off, due caution is needed.  If you can assure the broken getter piece is resting only on glass and not potentially bridging two of the element leads, then it should still work fine.  Once the getter has been flashed during manufacture, the getter support and pieces are no longer needed or used. If, however, there's a chance it could connect between any of the leads, best not to use it as you'd create a short that could damage the amp.

Pulled this one out of a tube tester.  The loose piece bridged a couple of the elements and shorted, taking out several resistors and a couple potentiometers in the process:


----------



## Thaddy

Thanks for the reply @bcowen. The getter looks to be holding on so it should be ok.


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> The brownish stuff between the base and glass is likely just glue or adhesive that has oozed out.  Nothing to worry about.  If the getter (holder) is broken off, due caution is needed.  If you can assure the broken getter piece is resting only on glass and not potentially bridging two of the element leads, then it should still work fine.  Once the getter has been flashed during manufacture, the getter support and pieces are no longer needed or used. If, however, there's a chance it could connect between any of the leads, best not to use it as you'd create a short that could damage the amp.
> 
> Pulled this one out of a tube tester.  The loose piece bridged a couple of the elements and shorted, taking out several resistors and a couple potentiometers in the process:


I have a Tung Sol 12SN7 BGRP tube where the little clip (heat radiator) above the top mica came lose and wasn't attached any more. I was afraid that it might short something. What to do?
I turned the tube upside down so that the clip rested inside the top of the glass. Then I took a little round magnet 4mm and taped it to the top of the tube to hold the lose clip in place - worked just fine.
As an added bonus somehow this contraption diffused the tube glow for a nice effect.


----------



## bcowen (Jun 17, 2022)

mordy said:


> I have a Tung Sol 12SN7 BGRP tube where the little clip (heat radiator) above the top mica came lose and wasn't attached any more. I was afraid that it might short something. What to do?
> I turned the tube upside down so that the clip rested inside the top of the glass. Then I took a little round magnet 4mm and taped it to the top of the tube to hold the lose clip in place - worked just fine.
> As an added bonus somehow this contraption diffused the tube glow for a nice effect.


Yes, but the imposed magnetic field will disrupt the quantum flow in the flux tunnel.  If conditions are just right, it could result in the genesis of a black hole.  Pretty risky.  🤣🤣


----------



## CAJames

bcowen said:


> Yes, but the imposed magnetic field will disrupt the quantum flow in the flux tunnel.  If conditions are just right, it could result in the genesis of a black *worm* hole. Pretty risky. 🤣🤣


FIFY. Black glass tubes create worm holes, clear glass creates black holes. Don’t ask why.


----------



## bcowen

CAJames said:


> FIFY. Black glass tubes create worm holes, clear glass creates black holes. Don’t ask why.



Why?  

Oh, wait. Failed to read the instructions.  Sorry.


----------



## No Deal (Jun 22, 2022)

Is this really a 421a or was I deceived? I have forgotten what the rectangular pieces are at the top but they are not the same shape that I see on other 421a tubes.  I have convinced myself that if this tube is a 5998/421a which makes me wonder if it can be paired with a 421a.


----------



## raindownthunda

No Deal said:


> Is this really a 421a or was I deceived? I have forgotten what the rectangular pieces are at the top but they are not the same shape that I see on other 421a tubes.


That is a 421a. Clear top and bottom D getters. The shape of top mica supports may have changed throughout the decades of production for these tubes.


----------



## Monsterzero

No Deal said:


> Is this really a 421a or was I deceived? I have forgotten what the rectangular pieces are at the top but they are not the same shape that I see on other 421a tubes.


 That's the real deal, as @raindownthunda said.


----------



## No Deal

Monsterzero said:


> That's the real deal, as @raindownthunda said.


Thanks to all.  So many things to know about these tubes and sometimes a short window to buy.


----------



## Velozity

I have a few Chathams and RCAs left. https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/various-6as7g-tubes.28185/


----------



## g0ldl10n

Hey, I came across this RCA 7236 on ebay and have been trying to find information on it, but have been quite unsuccessful. I do like the Tung-Sol 7236 I have for my DV, so decided to purchase one of these, was only $12.00 so I thought wth? However, if anyone has any info on these that would be appreciated! 

Also, there is still one left on ebay for $12.00 for anyone that may be interested.


----------



## Tom-s

Read that again. But slowly. 1973 week 26.


----------



## bpiotrow13

g0ldl10n said:


> Hey, I came across this RCA 7236 on ebay and have been trying to find information on it, but have been quite unsuccessful. I do like the Tung-Sol 7236 I have for my DV, so decided to purchase one of these, was only $12.00 so I thought wth? However, if anyone has any info on these that would be appreciated!
> 
> Also, there is still one left on ebay for $12.00 for anyone that may be interested.


I belive this is RCA 6080. Look inside, 7236 is built a bit different, this one is built like RCA 6080.


----------



## bpiotrow13

Tom-s said:


> Read that again. But slowly. 1973 week 26.


Ha, ha, I have been taken in as well


----------



## g0ldl10n

bpiotrow13 said:


> I belive this is RCA 6080. Look inside, 7236 is built a bit different, this one is built like RCA 6080.


I was looking more at the base, looks identical to the 7326, but won't be bothered if it's a 6080. The base on on the Tung-Sol and Sylvania 7236 look just like that.


----------



## bpiotrow13

g0ldl10n said:


> I was looking more at the base, looks identical to the 7326, but won't be bothered if it's a 6080. The base on on the Tung-Sol and Sylvania 7236 look just like that.


Correct, but look inside, they are different. They also sound quite different. RCA is not as dynamic and detailed.

And apart from that the marking is 7326 as @Tom-s noticed above.


----------



## g0ldl10n

bpiotrow13 said:


> Correct, but look inside, they are different. They also sound quite different. RCA is not as dynamic and detailed.
> 
> And apart from that the marking is 7326 as @Tom-s noticed above.


Oh crap, LOL.. that is one $12.00 dyslexic moment for me!  That damn base threw me off, haha!


----------



## mordy

g0ldl10n said:


> Hey, I came across this RCA 7236 on ebay and have been trying to find information on it, but have been quite unsuccessful. I do like the Tung-Sol 7236 I have for my DV, so decided to purchase one of these, was only $12.00 so I thought wth? However, if anyone has any info on these that would be appreciated!
> 
> Also, there is still one left on ebay for $12.00 for anyone that may be interested.


The 7326 is a date code - the 26th week 1973. In all likelihood it is a 6080 tube or perhaps a 6AS7GA.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (Jul 4, 2022)

mordy said:


> The 7326 is a date code - the 26th week 1973. In all likelihood it is a 6080 tube or perhaps a 6AS7GA.


I have similar tubes I have bought as 6080. I have not seen 6as7ga metal base. The shape suggests 6080 I think.


----------



## g0ldl10n

bpiotrow13 said:


> I have similar tubes I have bought as 6080. I have not seen 6as7ga metal base. The shape suggests 6080 I think.


I do thoroughly enjoy the RCA 6080 non-WA and WA variants I have - probably won't mind adding it to my stash - they go great with a few JAN 7n7 tubes I have.


----------



## mordy (Jul 4, 2022)

bpiotrow13 said:


> I have similar tubes I have bought as 6080. I have not seen 6as7ga metal base. The shape suggests 6080 I think.


Here is proof from my 5-pack:




I have several other 6AS7GA tubes under different names but they all sound the same. This tube was supposed to be a 6AS7G in a smaller envelope, but I don't know what the difference is between the 6AS7GA and the 6080.
A quick look at the US eBay now shows several metal base 6AS7GA for sale under the RCA, Sylvania and Raytheon names - my guess is that they all are made by Sylvania. Why? Because they have gray bakelite bases and usually only Sylvania tubes have this color.


----------



## CAJames

mordy said:


> ...I have several other 6AS7GA tubes under different names but they all sound the same. This tube was supposed to be a 6AS7G in a smaller envelope, but I don't know what the difference is between the 6AS7GA and the 6080...



FWIW my RCA Tube Manual has different entries for 6AS7G and 6080 with (slightly) different parameters. Although the 6AS7G entry says "see 6080 for characteristic curves."


----------



## CAJames

g0ldl10n said:


> I do thoroughly enjoy the RCA 6080 non-WA and WA variants I have - probably won't mind adding it to my stash - they go great with a few JAN 7n7 tubes I have.



Yeah, my goto tube set with my Woo WA22 was 7N7 + RCA 6080WA + RCA JAN 5Z3 rectifier for a long time.


----------



## mordy

CAJames said:


> FWIW my RCA Tube Manual has different entries for 6AS7G and 6080 with (slightly) different parameters. Although the 6AS7G entry says "see 6080 for characteristic curves."


Do you mean 6AS7GA in the above comment?


----------



## CAJames (Jul 4, 2022)

mordy said:


> Do you mean 6AS7GA in the above comment?



Not when I wrote it . But 6AS7GA has the same specs as the 6AS7G except for different bulb size so I guess I did. 6AS7G is what had the entry in the book.


----------



## bpiotrow13

mordy said:


> Here is proof from my 5-pack:
> 
> I have several other 6AS7GA tubes under different names but they all sound the same. This tube was supposed to be a 6AS7G in a smaller envelope, but I don't know what the difference is between the 6AS7GA and the 6080.
> A quick look at the US eBay now shows several metal base 6AS7GA for sale under the RCA, Sylvania and Raytheon names - my guess is that they all are made by Sylvania. Why? Because they have gray bakelite bases and usually only Sylvania tubes have this color.


Good point as always hard to argue with You Mordy


----------



## mordy

bpiotrow13 said:


> Good point as always hard to argue with You Mordy


That's arguable lol...


----------



## g0ldl10n (Jul 10, 2022)

I recently acquired a second Tung-Sol 7236 and it has a noticeably warmer sound than the one I already owned. The only real difference I am seeing is one had a red label, and the other has a white label - the date codes are 1961 (warmer sound) and 1965. I have searched on the differences between the label color, but really didn't come across much. Does anyone know if there were any differences between Tung-Sol 7263 tubes? Below is a picture of the comparison shot.

One other thing, the white labeled one has '3213999' on it as well - not exactly sure what this is.


----------



## mordy

g0ldl10n said:


> I recently acquired a second Tung-Sol 7236 and noticed has a noticeably warmer sound than the one I already owned. The only real difference I am seeing is one had a red label, and the other has a white label - the date codes are 1961 (warmer sound) and 1965. I have searched on the differences between the label color, but really didn't come across much. Does anyone know if there were any differences between Tung-Sol 7263 tubes? Below is a picture of the comparison shot.
> 
> One other thing, the white labeled one has '3213999' on it as well - not exactly sure what this is.


All the tubes with a lot of 9s were made for IBM computers.


----------



## g0ldl10n

mordy said:


> All the tubes with a lot of 9s were made for IBM computers.


Oh, this is interesting information - well, I do enjoy it more than the other one. Ah, I think I found a reference to that .. "This tube was used as a motor driver for early _computer tape_ drives instead of a pass tube so it had no need for a highly elevated cathode." Crazy it can sound so good in an amp while it was engineered for this.


----------



## gibosi

g0ldl10n said:


> I recently acquired a second Tung-Sol 7236 and noticed has a noticeably warmer sound than the one I already owned. The only real difference I am seeing is one had a red label, and the other has a white label - the date codes are 1961 (warmer sound) and 1965. I have searched on the differences between the label color, but really didn't come across much. Does anyone know if there were any differences between Tung-Sol 7263 tubes? Below is a picture of the comparison shot.
> 
> One other thing, the white labeled one has '3213999' on it as well - not exactly sure what this is.



Keep in mind that these were not made for use in audio systems. That said, tubes manufactured in the same factory but at different times often sound different. Over time, new materials, new technologies and feedback from the field resulted in production changes on the factory floor.


----------



## AudioDuck

g0ldl10n said:


> I recently acquired a second Tung-Sol 7236 and noticed has a noticeably warmer sound than the one I already owned. The only real difference I am seeing is one had a red label, and the other has a white label - the date codes are 1961 (warmer sound) and 1965. I have searched on the differences between the label color, but really didn't come across much. Does anyone know if there were any differences between Tung-Sol 7263 tubes? Below is a picture of the comparison shot.
> 
> One other thing, the white labeled one has '3213999' on it as well - not exactly sure what this is.


I have to say I LOVE my Tung-Sol 7236s so much with my Woo Audio WA2 (as power tubes) that I bought a second pair of Sylvanias as backups... they are excellent!


----------



## bpiotrow13

AudioDuck said:


> I have to say I LOVE my Tung-Sol 7236s so much with my Woo Audio WA2 (as power tubes) that I bought a second pair of Sylvanias as backups... they are excellent!


My experience is Sylvania 7236 is a bit different to TS 7236. TS sounds like a solid state. Sylvania is a bit warmer with stronger bass, overall not far away from TS 5998.


----------



## AudioDuck

bpiotrow13 said:


> My experience is Sylvania 7236 is a bit different to TS 7236. TS sounds like a solid state. Sylvania is a bit warmer with stronger bass, overall not far away from TS 5998.


Thank you- I didn’t realize the “flavors” of the 7236 would be that distinct…

I’d experienced it with 6922 input tubes, but not within a power tube category/“family”. I’ll be curious to see if the Sylvanias suit me better that the T-S pair, or if it’s too much warmth with the Brimar CV4003 input tubes…


----------



## mordy

AudioDuck said:


> Thank you- I didn’t realize the “flavors” of the 7236 would be that distinct…
> 
> I’d experienced it with 6922 input tubes, but not within a power tube category/“family”. I’ll be curious to see if the Sylvanias suit me better that the T-S pair, or if it’s too much warmth with the Brimar CV4003 input tubes…


Let us know what you think when you have tried both pairs - in general it seems that people prefer the Tung Sol.


----------



## bpiotrow13 (Jul 8, 2022)

AudioDuck said:


> Thank you- I didn’t realize the “flavors” of the 7236 would be that distinct…
> 
> I’d experienced it with 6922 input tubes, but not within a power tube category/“family”. I’ll be curious to see if the Sylvanias suit me better that the T-S pair, or if it’s too much warmth with the Brimar CV4003 input tubes…


It is not very different, but still.

As for warmth, I use Mullards cv4003 for drivers and it is not too warm, but this is very subjective.


----------



## nephilim32

g0ldl10n said:


> Hey, I came across this RCA 7236 on ebay and have been trying to find information on it, but have been quite unsuccessful. I do like the Tung-Sol 7236 I have for my DV, so decided to purchase one of these, was only $12.00 so I thought wth? However, if anyone has any info on these that would be appreciated!
> 
> Also, there is still one left on ebay for $12.00 for anyone that may be interested.


Your base is crooked like my Thomson CSF 6080 WA. 
Originally I thought this was a problem like improper craftsmanship, but actually it is common amongst NOS. Anyway, I’m a guy who just got his WA 22 delivered today! Just getting my feet wet, however I will be leap frogging the stock tubes with these 6N13S (6AS7G) NOS SOVTEK power tubes God they’re beautiful.


----------



## AudioDuck

Congratulations on the WA22! May you have many happy years of listening to it. Woo amps are awesome!


----------



## nephilim32

AudioDuck said:


> Congratulations on the WA22! May you have many happy years of listening to it. Woo amps are awesome!


Very kind of you to say that. I’ve got quite a ways to go in-terms of getting some serious hrs put on my WA22. I’m a good 25hrs in and all I can say is that I’m extremely happy. Just wish I did it sooner, but everything is so bloody expensive these days. Anyhow, the 6AS7G’s (NOS) from Sovtek are absolute quality. Also I’m not going past Noon on the volume dial ever with my HD 800’s. The WA22 handles high impedance headphones very well.


----------



## jbua5150

Can anyone tell me if these are actually Mullard and made in England?
Thanks


----------



## CAJames

jbua5150 said:


> Can anyone tell me if these are actually Mullard and made in England?
> Thanks



Yep. The R means Mullard, Mitcham UK.


----------



## Tom-s

jbua5150 said:


> Can anyone tell me if these are actually Mullard and made in England?
> Thanks


They are. But that’s not so special compared to the real Telefunken that’s next to them. You don’t see that so often.


----------



## CAJames

Tom-s said:


> They are. But that’s not so special compared to the real Telefunken that’s next to them. You don’t see that so often.



Did TFK really make 6080s? I thought they only re-labeled.


----------



## gibosi (Jul 26, 2022)

CAJames said:


> Did TFK really make 6080s? I thought they only re-labeled.



Yes, they did, but as you note, you will often see GE 6080s re-labeled. However, TFK construction is unique and unless rubbed off, there will be a TFK production code silk screened on the glass.

Edit: Note the 7 digit production code beginning with U for Ulm, Germany.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193885858875


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Yes, they did, but as you note, you will often see GE 6080s re-labeled. However, TFK construction is unique and unless rubbed off, there will be a TFK production code silk screened on the glass.
> 
> Edit: Note the 7 digit production code beginning with U for Ulm, Germany.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/193885858875


The real Telefunken 6080 tubes are rare and I haven’t heard them.
Reading about TFK 6080 tubes some say they sound great and others the opposite.
Is there any consensus? Or possibly the bad sounding ones were GE made?
Does anybody have experience with the real ones?


----------



## gibosi (Jul 26, 2022)

mordy said:


> The real Telefunken 6080 tubes are rare and I haven’t heard them.
> Reading about TFK 6080 tubes some say they sound great and others the opposite.
> Is there any consensus? Or possibly the bad sounding ones were GE made?
> Does anybody have experience with the real ones?



Mordy, the TFK 6080 sounds very similar to the Melz 6n12s, so you might like them. To those who have no experience with the Melz, the TFK house sound has a ton of treble presence but the mid range is somewhat thin. However, if one is willing to spend some time rolling through different rectifiers and drivers, the TFK can be very good tube.

Below, a Mullard GZ32 rectifier and a pair of Philips (Mullard) EL42 compliment the TFK 6080 very nicely.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Mordy, the TFK 6080 sounds very similar to the Melz 6n12s, so you might like them. To those who have no experience with the Melz, the TFK house sound has a ton of treble presence but the mid range is somewhat thin. However, if one is willing to spend some time rolling through different rectifiers and drivers, the TFK can be very good tube.
> 
> Below, a Mullard GZ32 rectifier and a pair of Philips (Mullard) EL42 compliment the TFK 6080 very nicely.


I am using the MELZ 6N12S as my power tubes in two different amps but in a multiple of 6 tubes. In this configuration I get plenty of bass slam and no thinness in the midrange as well as very good treble. The outstanding quality of these tubes is the clarity and instrument separation.
Unfortunately the 6N12S is hard to find, and even harder to find at a good price.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> I am using the MELZ 6N12S as my power tubes in two different amps but in a multiple of 6 tubes. In this configuration I get plenty of bass slam and no thinness in the midrange as well as very good treble. The outstanding quality of these tubes is the clarity and instrument separation.
> Unfortunately the 6N12S is hard to find, and even harder to find at a good price.



Well, we all have different ears and different gear. 

I also run a 6-pack of Melz 6N12S, but like the TFK 6080, I find they sound best when combined with tubes that compensate for a thin midrange. Below, paired with a Raytheon 1641 rectifier and a Philips (Sittard) ECC40.


----------



## mordy (Jul 26, 2022)

Melz 6N12S with National Union 6J5GT:


gibosi said:


> Well, we all have different ears and different gear.
> 
> I also run a 6-pack of Melz 6N12S, but like the TFK 6080, I find they sound best when combined with tubes that compensate for a thin midrange. Below, paired with a Raytheon 1641 rectifier and a Philips (Sittard) ECC40.


Melz 6N12S with National Union 6J5GT/G:



Melz 6N12S with Sylvania (?) 6J5G:



I just discovered now that that there are codes inside the tubes on the glass stems: The left Wizard tube says E11 (visible in picture) and the right Wards Airline tube says A162. The Wards tube has a date code N 8 = Jan 1938, nothing visible on the Wizard tube but both tubes have the same construction. I remember seeing such stem codes before but don't know what they mean.
BTW - I never see the dust on my amps until I take pictures, but after posting (and discarding) pictures I dusted them off. Missed two specks of dust on the Euforia housing lol.


----------



## Renexx (Jul 27, 2022)

mordy said:


> The real Telefunken 6080 tubes are rare and I haven’t heard them.
> Reading about TFK 6080 tubes some say they sound great and others the opposite.
> Is there any consensus? Or possibly the bad sounding ones were GE made?
> Does anybody have experience with the real ones?


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/post-16932403

These are my pair of real Telefunken 6080.
They sound neutral with a very natural decay to them. Good sounding tubes.


----------



## fuhransahis

Hi folks, just got a Euforia AE and am looking for some value power tube recommendations that would be an upgrade from stock - eventually I'll spring for something like the TS 5998, Bendix, etc but I need my wallet to recover a little first 😅 looking around $100/pair or so.

I'll be running RCA VT231 Grey Glasses in the driver's seats.

Appreciate any help!


----------



## Renexx

fuhransahis said:


> Hi folks, just got a Euforia AE and am looking for some value power tube recommendations that would be an upgrade from stock - eventually I'll spring for something like the TS 5998, Bendix, etc but I need my wallet to recover a little first 😅 looking around $100/pair or so.
> 
> I'll be running RCA VT231 Grey Glasses in the driver's seats.
> 
> Appreciate any help!


https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6080-gec-grade-1-valve-tube/ 
Best sound you can buy for cheap money.
Good synergy with RCA vt231.


----------



## mordy

Renexx said:


> https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6080-gec-grade-1-valve-tube/
> Best sound you can buy for cheap money.
> Good synergy with RCA vt231.


Agree that the GEC 6080 are excellent tubes.
However, if you want something inexpensive that sounds quite good, you may want to try Sylvania 6080 tubes. An example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254879284368?hash=item3b57fd3c90:g:GC4AAOSwnXJgNrwy


----------



## AudioDuck

mordy said:


> Agree that the GEC 6080 are excellent tubes.
> However, if you want something inexpensive that sounds quite good, you may want to try Sylvania 6080 tubes. An example:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/254879284368?hash=item3b57fd3c90:g:GC4AAOSwnXJgNrwy


Another option, amp allowing, could be Tung-Sol US Navy 7236s… I have been very impressed with mine as an alternative to 6080s…


----------



## No Deal

Can someone offer an opinion on these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175353422251?hash=item28d3e0e1ab:g:xn4AAOSwAR9ijzzd
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175353422254?hash=item28d3e0e1ae:g:PbgAAOSwFGdijzw3


----------



## gibosi

No Deal said:


> Can someone offer an opinion on these?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/175353422251?hash=item28d3e0e1ab:g:xn4AAOSwAR9ijzzd
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/175353422254?hash=item28d3e0e1ae:g:PbgAAOSwFGdijzw3



One's used and one's new. However, the test results are about the same. So IMHO, I'd go for the less expensive used one. Good luck!


----------



## No Deal

gibosi said:


> One's used and one's new. However, the test results are about the same. So IMHO, I'd go for the less expensive used one. Good luck!


Thanks.  

So, I am guessing they are legit.  I need two.


----------



## hackstu

Can anyone recommend a 6080 socket saver for a WA22?


----------



## bcowen

hackstu said:


> Can anyone recommend a 6080 socket saver for a WA22?



https://www.tubemonger.com/OCTAL_NO...ation_Red_GE_OMRON_p/novib-octal ge-omron.htm


----------



## VanHai

hackstu said:


> Can anyone recommend a 6080 socket saver for a WA22?


Got these from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Amptata-8pin...tect Tube Pin Socket Saver,-Visit the AMPTATA


----------



## hackstu

I live in the UK, so something on eBay if possible? Thanks.


----------



## VanHai

hackstu said:


> I live in the UK, so something on eBay if possible? Thanks.


These are exactly the same as on Amazon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1247916990... 6CA7 5Z3 5U4 Pre Amplifier Guitar Tube Saver


----------



## CAJames

I've bought socket savers from:

https://www.ebay.com/usr/maktsar_51?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2559

and been very happy with them.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> https://www.tubemonger.com/OCTAL_NOVIB_Socket_Saver_Vibration_Red_GE_OMRON_p/novib-octal ge-omron.htm


Head-fi'er @Deyan makes very good quality adapters and risers / savers.


----------



## Coran (Sep 12, 2022)

Hey folks. I'm looking to upgrade the stock power tubes that came with my WA22 (Thompson 6080s) and was looking for some advice. Right now I'm eyeing either some RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G tubes which I can get for ~$140, or a pair of Chatham 6AS7G that are being sold for $330. I know NOS tube prices are getting a little silly right now, but are these reasonable prices these days? Does anyone have experience with these in a WA22? I know the ideal is something like TS5998s, but those prices are insane right now.  This is my first foray into tube rolling, so I have been doing tons of reading here trying to get as much information as possible. It's a bit overwhelming at times.

Sound wise, what I think I'm going for is something a bit more "tubey." I definitely am after some better bass out of this amp. The stock tube configuration is just a touch sharp to my ears.


----------



## mordy (Sep 12, 2022)

Coran said:


> Hey folks. I'm looking to upgrade the stock power tubes that came with my WA22 (Thompson 6080s) and was looking for some advice. Right now I'm eyeing either some RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G tubes which I can get for ~$140, or a pair of Chatham 6AS7G that are being sold for $330. I know NOS tube prices are getting a little silly right now, but are these reasonable prices these days? Does anyone have experience with these in a WA22? I know the ideal is something like TS5998s, but those prices are insane right now.  This is my first foray into tube rolling, so I have been doing tons of reading here trying to get as much information as possible. It's a bit overwhelming at times.
> 
> Sound wise, what I think I'm going for is something a bit more "tubey." I definitely am after some better bass out of this amp. The stock tube configuration is just a touch sharp to my ears.





If you want used tubes with usable life left in them you should be able to pay much less:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363976398191?hash=item54beaf156f:g:60MAAOSwiy5i-VjP&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoNs4YBWHxX66N9CzqbZcAYZZanpHq5p+P4eM6kxfTTygpxrsJnwR5lOpfG+OI+8bsz07H4qg8WJKREXowEnto5+/d0eb8DKqn/k1Cwr0sesTE3XZa1DtEfAe1PH/aRIYj2AWQtPDY6gWQAd5GATYIk71yJRozs5s55xUhjGGirvHD4Arn20k5mADYjBlV3LvZMBXzXP4WBEnd8LaNEKHATw=|tkp:Bk9SR6bdxbrmYA

If you have patience, the Chathams come up here and there for much less than what you were quoted. Here are some that were sold recently:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...+6AS7G+pair&_osacat=0&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1

Good luck looking!


----------



## Monsterzero

Coran said:


> Hey folks. I'm looking to upgrade the stock power tubes that came with my WA22 (Thompson 6080s) and was looking for some advice. Right now I'm eyeing either some RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G tubes which I can get for ~$140, or a pair of Chatham 6AS7G that are being sold for $330. I know NOS tube prices are getting a little silly right now, but are these reasonable prices these days? Does anyone have experience with these in a WA22? I know the ideal is something like TS5998s, but those prices are insane right now.  This is my first foray into tube rolling, so I have been doing tons of reading here trying to get as much information as possible. It's a bit overwhelming at times.
> 
> Sound wise, what I think I'm going for is something a bit more "tubey." I definitely am after some better bass out of this amp. The stock tube configuration is just a touch sharp to my ears.


The RCAs will be a warmer sound, with bigger, but at times a bit flabby bass, at least in the amps I've tried them in. 

If you shop around you can probably find some Mullard 6080s, which are warm as well, but better to my ears /gears than RCAs. 
Double check, but I believe you can use 6080s in your amp as a replacement for the 6as7g


----------



## gibosi

Coran said:


> Hey folks. I'm looking to upgrade the stock power tubes that came with my WA22 (Thompson 6080s) and was looking for some advice. Right now I'm eyeing either some RCA JAN CRC 6AS7G tubes which I can get for ~$140, or a pair of Chatham 6AS7G that are being sold for $330. I know NOS tube prices are getting a little silly right now, but are these reasonable prices these days? Does anyone have experience with these in a WA22? I know the ideal is something like TS5998s, but those prices are insane right now.  This is my first foray into tube rolling, so I have been doing tons of reading here trying to get as much information as possible. It's a bit overwhelming at times.
> 
> Sound wise, what I think I'm going for is something a bit more "tubey." I definitely am after some better bass out of this amp. The stock tube configuration is just a touch sharp to my ears.



I would suggest that you start cheap. 

And yes I would agree that the Thompson's can be a bit sharp in some systems.

Personally I think the Russian 6N5S and 6N13S are not bad at all. And then try the RCA 6AS7G. Also, as Mordy suggests, be patient. Prices are a bit crazy now, but every so often tubes pop up for good prices.


----------



## Coran

gibosi said:


> I would suggest that you start cheap.
> 
> And yes I would agree that the Thompson's can be a bit sharp in some systems.
> 
> Personally I think the Russian 6N5S and 6N13S are not bad at all. And then try the RCA 6AS7G. Also, as Mordy suggests, be patient. Prices are a bit crazy now, but every so often tubes pop up for good prices.



That's a good point. I know the market is wild right now. Thanks!


----------



## Coran

mordy said:


> If you want used tubes with usable life left in them you should be able to pay much less:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/363976398191?hash=item54beaf156f:g:60MAAOSwiy5i-VjP&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoNs4YBWHxX66N9CzqbZcAYZZanpHq5p+P4eM6kxfTTygpxrsJnwR5lOpfG+OI+8bsz07H4qg8WJKREXowEnto5+/d0eb8DKqn/k1Cwr0sesTE3XZa1DtEfAe1PH/aRIYj2AWQtPDY6gWQAd5GATYIk71yJRozs5s55xUhjGGirvHD4Arn20k5mADYjBlV3LvZMBXzXP4WBEnd8LaNEKHATw=|tkp:Bk9SR6bdxbrmYA
> 
> ...


Is there a meaningful difference betweet the RCA 6AS7 vs the RCA 6AS7G?


----------



## gibosi

Coran said:


> Is there a meaningful difference betweet the RCA 6AS7 vs the RCA 6AS7G?



No. The only difference is that RCA 6AS7 is a bit shorter and easier to type than the RCA 6AS7G.


----------



## mordy

Coran said:


> Is there a meaningful difference betweet the RCA 6AS7 vs the RCA 6AS7G?


There is another tube that is similar (or the same as the 6080) and it is called 6AS7GA. Sometimes sellers advertise them as 6AS7G. In general, the 6AS7G are more desirable (better sounding) than the 6AS7GA tubes, although there are 6080 tubes that are just as good or better than some 6AS7G tubes. The 6AS7GA and 6080 tubes have straight glass and the 6AS7G is coke bottle shaped (called ST or Shoulder Type).


----------



## CAJames

I like the A2293 with adapters. They are available from Langrex for less than most USA 6080/6AS7G to say nothing of UK made and they sound great on my WA22.


----------



## mordy

CAJames said:


> I like the A2293 with adapters. They are available from Langrex for less than most USA 6080/6AS7G to say nothing of UK made and they sound great on my WA22.


Is the A2293 one half of the GEC 6080?
Do you need four tubes in the WA22?


----------



## CAJames

mordy said:


> Is the A2293 one half of the GEC 6080?
> Do you need four tubes in the WA22?



Yes and yes.


----------



## LoryWiv

mordy said:


> Is the A2293 one half of the GEC 6080?
> Do you need four tubes in the WA22?





CAJames said:


> Yes and yes.


I am sure your answer is the proper one @CAJames but just for my education, would there be any harm in just running two A2293 besides potentially sounding underpowered?


----------



## CAJames (Sep 13, 2022)

I don’t think it will do any damage, but that is FWIW/JMO/YMMV and all that. But the WA22 is balanced so each A2293 (or each half of a 6080/6AS7) amplifies a different signal and if you only use one per side you lose one of the balanced phases. In other words you miss out on both power and information.


----------



## raindownthunda

Can anyone confirm if these unbranded 6080's are actually made by Mullard? The construction looks very similar from what I can tell, but the top mica looks completely round instead of pointed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/265180040019


----------



## bpiotrow13 (Sep 14, 2022)

mordy said:


> If you have patience, the Chathams come up here and there for much less than what you were quoted. Here are some that were sold recently:
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...+6AS7G+pair&_osacat=0&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1


Ha, ha, I am the lucky one who bought these Just got them delivered last week.


Monsterzero said:


> The RCAs will be a warmer sound, with bigger, but at times a bit flabby bass, at least in the amps I've tried them in.
> 
> If you shop around you can probably find some Mullard 6080s, which are warm as well, but better to my ears /gears than RCAs.
> Double check, but I believe you can use 6080s in your amp as a replacement for the 6as7g


RCA 6as7g are really good tubes, quite warm but still nice, especially with wa22 (I tried them in wa22 when I had it).

I think TS5998 are not that outstanding, especially for the price. One may want to try Sylvania 7236, they are not far away TS5998 but much cheaper.


----------



## gibosi

raindownthunda said:


> Can anyone confirm if these unbranded 6080's are actually made by Mullard? The construction looks very similar from what I can tell, but the top mica looks completely round instead of pointed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/265180040019



To my eyes it looks like a Thomson-CSF 6080WA.


----------



## AudioDuck

bpiotrow13 said:


> Ha, ha, I am the lucky one who bought these Just got them delivered last week.
> 
> RCA 6as7g are really good tubes, quite warm but still nice, especially with wa22 (I tried them in wa22 when I had it).
> 
> I think TS5998 are not that outstanding, especially for the price. One may want to try Sylvania 7236, they are not far away TS5998 but much cheaper.


I’d like to second the 7236 recommendation. My T-S US Navy 7236s are really good!


----------



## mordy

raindownthunda said:


> Can anyone confirm if these unbranded 6080's are actually made by Mullard? The construction looks very similar from what I can tell, but the top mica looks completely round instead of pointed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/265180040019


I second gibosi - they don't look like Mullard. All the Mullards have the notched top mica and they don't have the plastic rectangles on top.


----------



## raindownthunda (Sep 14, 2022)

mordy said:


> I second gibosi - they don't look like Mullard. All the Mullards have the notched top mica and they don't have the plastic rectangles on top.


Thanks @gibosi and @mordy. Good eye! I’m intrigued by this seller as they have a number of “Chelmer Valve Co” tubes that are British rebrands, so trying to find some hidden gems in their stock. I’m 99% certain the CVC L63 they have are GEC made and was able to make a deal for a very good price on those.


----------



## gibosi

raindownthunda said:


> Thanks @gibosi and @mordy. Good eye! I’m intrigued by this seller as they have a number of “Chelmer Valve Co” tubes that are British rebrands, so trying to find some hidden gems in their stock. I’m 99% certain the CVC L63 they have are GEC made and was able to make a deal for a very good price on those.



And yes, sometimes one can find hidden gems among Chelmer's listings. Some time ago, I managed to pick up a couple GEC U52 disguised as "CVC 5Z3". 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dub...-rolling-thread.694525/page-130#post-16261655


----------



## blackdragon87

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/304621950045

i just bought these.. are they a good price


----------



## bcowen

blackdragon87 said:


> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/304621950045
> 
> i just bought these.. are they a good price


That would be a very good price for real Telefunkens.  Those are relabeled Svetlanas though, and that's a very steep price for them. 

The UFO getters are the dead giveaway:


----------



## blackdragon87

Shoot. I'm new to tubes and thought those were real lol


----------



## mordy

blackdragon87 said:


> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/304621950045





blackdragon87 said:


> Telefunken never made these tubes - they are Russian Svetlana tubes with fake labels. The double inverted saucer getters are the giveaway that they are Russian made tubes.


----------



## attmci (Sep 25, 2022)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304563478464?hash=item46e965dfc0:g:d8YAAOSwx5Zi0AB8&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoAb/SBpgnNtyNwvxDhEfjxyKZCOK8YG8jfeWJxxp3S6IE7zKkTTOI56uxeJIQaKe/XyuNa5+0BTCFtuXerL8V8fJksWhq8WIeUAqERQqL+7tSPS1l4BkVX0C5DMofMhQhymT9MqyO8vjM7f+XS6eYGR+KK2gjyfF7kOEZaWc+XfyVhu4zPovUvE6TCWU1DCRnGGBu5ulwehcH0VANb2g+Do=|tkp:Bk9SR_6Tj9XuYA&nma=true&si=3AyZSaxHHi88q4XSwdlzXPyd35Q%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

fake.


----------



## bcowen

attmci said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/304563478464?hash=item46e965dfc0:g:d8YAAOSwx5Zi0AB8&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoAb/SBpgnNtyNwvxDhEfjxyKZCOK8YG8jfeWJxxp3S6IE7zKkTTOI56uxeJIQaKe/XyuNa5+0BTCFtuXerL8V8fJksWhq8WIeUAqERQqL+7tSPS1l4BkVX0C5DMofMhQhymT9MqyO8vjM7f+XS6eYGR+KK2gjyfF7kOEZaWc+XfyVhu4zPovUvE6TCWU1DCRnGGBu5ulwehcH0VANb2g+Do=|tkp:Bk9SR_6Tj9XuYA&nma=true&si=3AyZSaxHHi88q4XSwdlzXPyd35Q%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> fake.


Seller relisted that auction:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304621950045?ViewItem=&item=304621950045

But, looks like the bid was retracted, so I suppose we'll see them relisted again at some point.  I suspect the seller knows quite well those are Svetlanas.


----------



## dpump

Does anyone know if there is a difference between regular TUNG-SOL 5998 and JAN TUNG-SOL 5998?


----------



## mordy (Sep 25, 2022)

dpump said:


> Does anyone know if there is a difference between regular TUNG-SOL 5998 and JAN TUNG-SOL 5998?


JAN means Joint Army and Navy indicating military use and tighter specifications. I only have TS 5998 tubes labeled Tung Sol and IBM but personally I doubt if you can hear any difference between regular and JAN 5998 tubes.
In certain cases the JAN tubes may have extra support rods or mica but I am not aware of different constructions regarding the 5998.


----------



## JTbbb (Oct 17, 2022)

Hello there, am I correct in dating these early clear top, bottom getter 5998’s I have recently acquired as 1952 week 39? Thanks. Sorry about the pic.


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Hello there, am I correct in dating these early clear top, bottom getter 5998’s I have recently acquired as 1952 week 39? Thanks. Sorry about the pic.



Your picture does not include date codes. The visible numbers (3002399 and the abbreviated 2399) correspond to the IBM inventory number for this tube. IBM bought a very large number of these and the least Chatham could do was put this number on them.


----------



## JTbbb (Oct 17, 2022)

Oops!


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> Your picture does not include date codes. The visible numbers (3002399 and the abbreviated 2399) correspond to the IBM inventory number for this tube. IBM bought a very large number of these and the least Chatham could do was put this number on them.


Thanks for that. So if I understand correctly, there might not be any date code? They are on their way, so shall have a closer examination when they arrive. I was basing my date on how Tung Sol can date their tubes.


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Thanks for that. So if I understand correctly, there might not be any date code? They are on their way, so shall have a closer examination when they arrive. I was basing my date on how Tung Sol can date their tubes.



It is likely that the date code is printed on the other side of the base. And for what it is worth, I have four clear-top "IBM" 5998s and all of them were manufactured in 1957.


----------



## JTbbb

Question: Are all domino plate 421A’s clear tops? My understanding is that this is correct. And anything with a chrome top would be a 5998. Thanks


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Question: Are all domino plate 421A’s clear tops? My understanding is that this is correct. And anything with a chrome top would be a 5998. Thanks



Yes, to my knowledge, all 421As are clear tops. And yes, anything with a chrome top is a 5998. But there are 5998s with clear tops as well.


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> Yes, to my knowledge, all 421As are clear tops. And yes, anything with a chrome top is a 5998. But there are 5998s with clear tops as well.


Thanks for that. I do have a clear top 5998. But look at this cheeky chrome top number! Came in a lovely original red box and sounds wonderful.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> Thanks for that. I do have a clear top 5998. But look at this cheeky chrome top number! Came in a lovely original red box and sounds wonderful.


Interesting they labeled it as a 421A.  Personally, I prefer the (Tung Sol) 5998 to the WE 421A, but that's just me.  Nice looking tube!!


----------



## gibosi

bcowen said:


> Interesting they labeled it as a 421A.  Personally, I prefer the (Tung Sol) 5998 to the WE 421A, but that's just me.  Nice looking tube!!



National Electronics was a rebrander. And many of their tubes are "interesting." lol


----------



## bcowen

gibosi said:


> National Electronics was a rebrander. And many of their tubes are "interesting." lol


LOL!  Yes, most of the National labeled tubes I've seen are Russian, and there's a couple I haven't been able to identify (probably Chinese, but they sounded dreck-ish enough it wasn't worth the time to research). There _are_ some needles in that haystack though, as this 5998 proves. No faking domino plates.


----------



## JTbbb

Box nice too, for box lovers 😀


----------



## maxpudding

gibosi said:


> And yes, sometimes one can find hidden gems among Chelmer's listings. Some time ago, I managed to pick up a couple GEC U52 disguised as "CVC 5Z3".
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dub...-rolling-thread.694525/page-130#post-16261655



I have had a few good findings from them too in the past


----------



## maxpudding

JTbbb said:


> Box nice too, for box lovers 😀


I've seen many of these "421a" National Electronic tubes sold in Yahoo Japan


----------



## Renexx

JTbbb said:


> Thanks for that. I do have a clear top 5998. But look at this cheeky chrome top number! Came in a lovely original red box and sounds wonderful.


I think you bought a relabelled 5998 tube. 

I have a tungsol 421a/5998 bottom and top  getter 5998. Even 421a is printed on the box and base as well. I think that was just marketing and not  produced by Western Electric.


----------



## JTbbb

maxpudding said:


> I've seen many of these "421a" National Electronic tubes sold in Yahoo Japan


Haha, but I wonder what you would get! This tube came as a freebie with a couple of other tubes I bought as it measured 44/64, with a minimum good being 40/40. And here it is sounding great! I think I prefer it to the WE421A I took out!


----------



## mordy

JTbbb said:


> Haha, but I wonder what you would get! This tube came as a freebie with a couple of other tubes I bought as it measured 44/64, with a minimum good being 40/40. And here it is sounding great! I think I prefer it to the WE421A I took out!


You are not alone in finding that tubes that measure low or poor can still sound very good. Somebody said that a tube tester is only good for telling which tubes are unusable and that the measurements don’t tell the true story about how useful the tube is.


----------



## CAJames

mordy said:


> You are not alone in finding that tubes that measure low or poor can still sound very good. Somebody said that a tube tester is only good for telling which tubes are unusable and that the measurements don’t tell the true story about how useful the tube is.



 . The line is tube testers tell you if a tube is bad, not if it is good.


----------



## maxpudding

JTbbb said:


> Haha, but I wonder what you would get! This tube came as a freebie with a couple of other tubes I bought as it measured 44/64, with a minimum good being 40/40. And here it is sounding great! I think I prefer it to the WE421A I took out!


All 5998s from what I saw in the photos lol

Love the wooden chassis btw!


----------



## mordy

CAJames said:


> . The line is tube testers tell you if a tube is bad, not if it is good.


Thanks-that’s the sentence I was looking for.


----------



## JTbbb

maxpudding said:


> All 5998s from what I saw in the photos lol
> 
> Love the wooden chassis btw!


A view of the underside. If you’ve got space, fill it 😀


----------



## JTbbb

I send my tubes to a professional tube amp/builder/repairer who also does the same with testers too. Here is a tube he tested, and his take on results.





The PC/TC figures are pretty much a standard that people use to buy / sell valves to give an idea of their ‘goodness’, but in reality the 421A / 5998s are very high power triodes used mainly in Military applications back in the day, so to be honest for the purposes of matching the valves for your preamp, the PC score is really irrelevant, whether a valve can drive 90mA or 40mA is of no consequence when it is in circuit driving 5/6mA, they will pretty much all work until they become noisy or completely exhausted. A more useful parameter to match against is the TC (transconductance, loosely described as the gain of the valve), so use that as a basis for matching, but again don’t worry unduly, because I think you would be hard pushed to hear the difference between a valve with a TC of 9 or 14, but always good practice to get as close as possible. The main criteria with your amp I would suggest is how noisy they are, as that directly affects the listening experience, old valves can become noisy and microphonic, as you know.


----------



## bcowen

JTbbb said:


> I send my tubes to a professional tube amp/builder/repairer who also does the same with testers too. Here is a tube he tested, and his take on results.
> 
> 
> 
> The PC/TC figures are pretty much a standard that people use to buy / sell valves to give an idea of their ‘goodness’, but in reality the 421A / 5998s are very high power triodes used mainly in Military applications back in the day, so to be honest for the purposes of matching the valves for your preamp, the PC score is really irrelevant, whether a valve can drive 90mA or 40mA is of no consequence when it is in circuit driving 5/6mA, they will pretty much all work until they become noisy or completely exhausted. A more useful parameter to match against is the TC (transconductance, loosely described as the gain of the valve), so use that as a basis for matching, but again don’t worry unduly, because I think you would be hard pushed to hear the difference between a valve with a TC of 9 or 14, but always good practice to get as close as possible. The main criteria with your amp I would suggest is how noisy they are, as that directly affects the listening experience, old valves can become noisy and microphonic, as you know.


Nicely stated.

As well, a lot depends on what tester is being used.  Most of the vintage testers (Hickoks, TV-7's, B&K's, etc) apply a maximum plate voltage of 150v.  While this is sufficient for small signal tubes like 9-pinners, 6SN7's, etc., it's inadequate for most power tubes.  With the plate voltage significantly less than what the tube will see in an actual component, absolute readings are at best an approximation.  Many of the more modern (ie: currently made) testers have the capability to run significantly higher voltages and will give a much better read on the condition of a power tube.  I see so many listings with TV-7 readings, and any emission or GM (transconductance) values on a power tube are honestly just a shot in the dark with that tester. 

I use my Hickok mostly for the smaller tubes where the GM readings are at least indicative.  For power tubes like a 6AS7 or 5998, it's useful for testing for shorts and leakage, but can only serve as a relative baseline between tubes rather than an absolute for GM.


----------



## JTbbb

bcowen said:


> Nicely stated.
> 
> As well, a lot depends on what tester is being used.  Most of the vintage testers (Hickoks, TV-7's, B&K's, etc) apply a maximum plate voltage of 150v.  While this is sufficient for small signal tubes like 9-pinners, 6SN7's, etc., it's inadequate for most power tubes.  With the plate voltage significantly less than what the tube will see in an actual component, absolute readings are at best an approximation.  Many of the more modern (ie: currently made) testers have the capability to run significantly higher voltages and will give a much better read on the condition of a power tube.  I see so many listings with TV-7 readings, and any emission or GM (transconductance) values on a power tube are honestly just a shot in the dark with that tester.
> 
> I use my Hickok mostly for the smaller tubes where the GM readings are at least indicative.  For power tubes like a 6AS7 or 5998, it's useful for testing for shorts and leakage, but can only serve as a relative baseline between tubes rather than an absolute for GM.


It is indeed a very mysterious subject of which I have little knowledge. I know the chap that tests my tubes uses an AVO VCM 163 and AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester.


----------



## JamieMcC (Oct 30, 2022)

Fwiw if I recall correctly the 6080 tube used in the  Bottlehead Crack is a cathode follower which means it shouldn't be to fussy about the emission condition of the tube as it's not used for gain amplification but as a impedance conversion stage. Even tubes that are tested with low emissions should work for this.


----------



## CAJames

bcowen said:


> ...I use my Hickok mostly for the smaller tubes where the GM readings are at least indicative.  For power tubes like a 6AS7 or 5998, it's useful for testing for shorts and leakage, but can only serve as a relative baseline between tubes rather than an absolute for GM.



My thing is the engineers at Hickok et. al. needed to pick a single operating point out of the entire phase space of voltages and currents to do one test to determine if the tube should be replaced. Which is pretty much impossible, yet they did an amazing job. But it think in general the operating point in your tube tester is very different from the operating point in your amp (esp. for power tubes but also for small signal tubes) and kinda limits its usefulness for e.g. matching. The fancy tube testers that can operate at arbitrary currents and voltages or the curve tracers that go over an entire range would be much more useful, but regular people don't usually have them.


----------



## raindownthunda (Oct 31, 2022)

JamieMcC said:


> Fwiw if I recall correctly the 6080 tube used in the  Bottlehead Crack is a cathode follower which means it shouldn't be to fussy about the emission condition of the tube as it's not used for gain amplification but as a impedance conversion stage. Even tubes that are tested with low emissions should work for this.


Very interesting, I haven’t heard this before. In a cathode follower amp what does the gain amplification? Why do tubes used for impedance conversion not need strong emissions? Does this mean they aren’t used as hard and should last longer as well?

I‘ve found in my experience using the BHC with 5998’s that test at/below min spec they seem to sound just as good as “new“ testing tubes. This has always baffled me and have chalked it up to me just not having expert level audiophile ears. Personally I love gambling with used/untested tubes for cheap. Am more often than not surprised with good results. Except for that one time a 6AS7G had a short and nearly melted a big resistor… now will always at least do a continuity test with a multimeter if they’re untested and pay attention the first time I’m using a new tube for signs of failures. I’ve yet to have a power tube die from exhaustion :knocks on wood:


----------



## mordy

raindownthunda said:


> Very interesting, I haven’t heard this before. In a cathode follower amp what does the gain amplification? Why do tubes used for impedance conversion not need strong emissions? Does this mean they aren’t used as hard and should last longer as well?
> 
> I‘ve found in my experience using the BHC with 5998’s that test at/below min spec they seem to sound just as good as “new“ testing tubes. This has always baffled me and have chalked it up to me just not having expert level audiophile ears. Personally I love gambling with used/untested tubes for cheap. Am more often than not surprised with good results. Except for that one time a 6AS7G had a short and nearly melted a big resistor… now will always at least do a continuity test with a multimeter if they’re untested and pay attention the first time I’m using a new tube for signs of failures. I’ve yet to have a power tube die from exhaustion :knocks on wood:


Was that defective tube a 5998?


----------



## raindownthunda (Oct 31, 2022)

mordy said:


> Was that defective tube a 5998?


GE 6AS7G (not RCA, the Chatham style construction with silver rods). There was a short between heater and cathode as verified by pins 6 & 7 failing a continuity test.


----------



## HTSkywalker

bcowen said:


> Nicely stated.
> 
> As well, a lot depends on what tester is being used.  Most of the vintage testers (Hickoks, TV-7's, B&K's, etc) apply a maximum plate voltage of 150v.  While this is sufficient for small signal tubes like 9-pinners, 6SN7's, etc., it's inadequate for most power tubes.  With the plate voltage significantly less than what the tube will see in an actual component, absolute readings are at best an approximation.  Many of the more modern (ie: currently made) testers have the capability to run significantly higher voltages and will give a much better read on the condition of a power tube.  I see so many listings with TV-7 readings, and any emission or GM (transconductance) values on a power tube are honestly just a shot in the dark with that tester.
> 
> I use my Hickok mostly for the smaller tubes where the GM readings are at least indicative.  For power tubes like a 6AS7 or 5998, it's useful for testing for shorts and leakage, but can only serve as a relative baseline between tubes rather than an absolute for GM.


Respect 👌👌


----------



## JamieMcC

raindownthunda said:


> Very interesting, I haven’t heard this before. In a cathode follower amp what does the gain amplification? Why do tubes used for impedance conversion not need strong emissions? Does this mean they aren’t used as hard and should last longer as well?
> 
> I‘ve found in my experience using the BHC with 5998’s that test at/below min spec they seem to sound just as good as “new“ testing tubes. This has always baffled me and have chalked it up to me just not having expert level audiophile ears. Personally I love gambling with used/untested tubes for cheap. Am more often than not surprised with good results. Except for that one time a 6AS7G had a short and nearly melted a big resistor… now will always at least do a continuity test with a multimeter if they’re untested and pay attention the first time I’m using a new tube for signs of failures. I’ve yet to have a power tube die from exhaustion :knocks on wood:



Have a search on the Bottlehead forum that's where I rember seeing a comment made by one of the design team a few years back  now was either PB or PJ or have a Google.


----------



## CaptainFantastic

I finally got to unboxing two pairs of tubes I bought more than a year ago - 6080WB Bendix and Tung Sol 7236s. I noticed the Bendix tubes are not perfectly identical. I bought them as an "NOS" pair, so I suppose they are in fact similar despite the small difference seen in the picture (two sets of metal brackets on one, only upper brackets on the other)? Does anyone know more about this difference? 




And here are the 7236s. These I already gave a run and they sound wonderful, but I might still prefer my GEC 6AS7Gs and put them up for sale. Compared to what I was thinking last year, now I think I have too many tubes for a lifetime.


----------



## mordy

CaptainFantastic said:


> I finally got to unboxing two pairs of tubes I bought more than a year ago - 6080WB Bendix and Tung Sol 7236s. I noticed the Bendix tubes are not perfectly identical. I bought them as an "NOS" pair, so I suppose they are in fact similar despite the small difference seen in the picture (two sets of metal brackets on one, only upper brackets on the other)? Does anyone know more about this difference?
> 
> 
> 
> And here are the 7236s. These I already gave a run and they sound wonderful, but I might still prefer my GEC 6AS7Gs and put them up for sale. Compared to what I was thinking last year, now I think I have too many tubes for a lifetime.


Re the Bendix it looks like the person assembling it was asleep…However, I don’t think that it will affect the sound.
The Bendix 6080WB is one of my favorites and with the right pairing it is very punchy. It requires a good 1/2 hour to warm up, probably because of the massive graphite plates.


----------



## Monsterzero

CaptainFantastic said:


> Does anyone know more about this difference?


If you use the search function in this thread I believe @rosgr63 spoke about the various Bendix 6080s out there several years ago.


----------



## pravous

The Bendix 6080wb have a couple of variations.  Slotted plates vs solid plates.  Even the shape of the plates can vary in terms of cross section.  I wouldn’t worry to much about the support clips as long as the plates look identical.  Like all tubes they can sometimes be found with strange rebrand markings.  


Here is a slotted plate “rca” 6080wb.


----------



## mordy

pravous said:


> The Bendix 6080wb have a couple of variations.  Slotted plates vs solid plates.  Even the shape of the plates can vary in terms of cross section.  I wouldn’t worry to much about the support clips as long as the plates look identical.  Like all tubes they can sometimes be found with strange rebrand markings.
> Here is a slotted plate “rca” 6080wb.


If I remember correctly, the Bendix 6080 comes in 5-6 variations. My question is if all the graphite plate 6080WB were made by Bendix, regardless of label; there are many rebranded ones. Or did somebody else manufacture these graphite plate 6080WB tubes?


----------



## raindownthunda (Nov 4, 2022)

Agreed, I have a few variations and they all sound the same to my ears. One of my favorite power tubes tonality wise esp. with brighter/thinner drivers. Even the Chatham/Tung-Sol solid plate 6080WB sound the same to me. IMHO the red print Bendix and exotic look of slotted plates add a little bias as being “best” since they look the coolest . Solid plates are usually the cheapest as they arent branded bendix:


----------



## gibosi

Monsterzero said:


> If you use the search function in this thread I believe @rosgr63 spoke about the various Bendix 6080s out there several years ago.



Yes rosgr63 and ultrainferno

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-91#post-10625059


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Yes rosgr63 and ultrainferno
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here.410326/page-91#post-10625059


I remember seeing a picture of a 7th Bendix variant with a different looking plate made for the German military.


----------



## Henrim

I bought a pair of GEC 6080, but they make these loud static noises fairly regaulrly. I've tried cleaning the pins with deoxite which didn't work, and then I thought about resoldering the pins (never done it before), but couldn't figure out how, as there are little pins inside the base of each pin.

Any suggestions?


----------



## pravous

There is a thin wire lead inside each pin, usually cut flush to the bottom of the pin.


----------



## gibosi

Henrim said:


> I bought a pair of GEC 6080, but they make these loud static noises fairly regaulrly. I've tried cleaning the pins with deoxite which didn't work, and then I thought about resoldering the pins (never done it before), but couldn't figure out how, as there are little pins inside the base of each pin.
> 
> Any suggestions?



I clean the pins with fine sandpaper, 220 grit. For me this works much better than deoxite type treatments.


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> I clean the pins with fine sandpaper, 220 grit. For me this works much better than deoxite type treatments.


If you need to re-flow the solder, use a 25-35W soldering iron and touch each pin 20-30 seconds. Make sure to hold the tube with the pins facing down so that the solder doesn’t go towards the inside of the tube. If you see solder flowing, stop that pin and go to the next.
Re cleaning of the oxidation on tube pins I use a magnifying glass and scrape off the pins so that they are shiny and I can see the metal surface. For this I use a small pen knife. 
A long time ago I came across a study from the 40s about cleaning tube pins and the conclusion was that manual cleaning, scraping off the oxidation, worked better than chemical cleaning. The best contact was metal to metal (perhaps chemical cleaners leave residue?).


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> If you need to re-flow the solder, use a 25-35W soldering iron and touch each pin 20-30 seconds. Make sure to hold the tube with the pins facing down so that the solder doesn’t go towards the inside of the tube. If you see solder flowing, stop that pin and go to the next.
> Re cleaning of the oxidation on tube pins *I use a magnifying glass and scrape off the pins so that they are shiny and I can see the metal surface. For this I use a small pen knife.*
> A long time ago I came across a study from the 40s about cleaning tube pins and the conclusion was that manual cleaning, scraping off the oxidation, worked better than chemical cleaning. The best contact was metal to metal (perhaps chemical cleaners leave residue?).


I'm lazy.   🤣


----------



## mordy

bcowen said:


> I'm lazy.   🤣


I do have a Dremel tool too. What kind of attachment is used?


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> I do have a Dremel tool too. What kind of attachment is used?


I use these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PJHJ893/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

Small enough to go all around the pin on an octal.  Too big to get fully between the pins on a noval, but can still get to most of it.  I usually coat the pins liberally with full strength Deoxit (that comes in the brush-on bottle), let it sit for 5 minutes or so, hit it with the Dremel, then follow that with some isopropyl alcohol to remove any residual Deoxit and debris.  Probably not as thorough as scraping the pins, but it's pretty effective with minimal effort.


----------



## attmci

Be nice/gentle to the tubes. I just found the price of good tubes had jumped a lot. Feel sorry for the new comers in this hobby.


----------



## BrainSalat

Henrim said:


> I bought a pair of GEC 6080, but they make these loud static noises fairly regaulrly. I've tried cleaning the pins with deoxite which didn't work, and then I thought about resoldering the pins (never done it before), but couldn't figure out how, as there are little pins inside the base of each pin.
> 
> Any suggestions?



I had some similar problems with my Melz 1578 and I fixed them by re-soldering the pins like I have described here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.831743/post-17147865


----------



## g0ldl10n

BrainSalat said:


> I had some similar problems with my Melz 1578 and I fixed them by re-soldering the pins like I have described here:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/feliks-audio-euforia-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.831743/post-17147865


Yep, it has fixed a couple tubes for me too. You can practice on much less expensive tubes first, but I never did it before either, and my first attempt on a very problematic 6C8G was a success, and works perfectly now.


----------



## Sweet William

aldovan said:


> I have the RCA 6AS7G and the GE 6080.
> After burn-in , I prefer the GE....have a animal BASS !!!
> Any information about Raytheon 6080 ?
> What is the best , Raytheon or CSF Thomson ?
> ...


I cannot comment on the Raytheon but I can on the Thomson 6080. The Thomson sounds OK but is a bit thin and tinny in the upper ranges. I bought one on ebay and it failed on day2. It was replaced, worked for a few weeks of light use and one channel failed. My old RCA6080 worked fine regardless. There seems to be some QC problems with them from my investigations on the net. I suspect that the large quantities available are not French NOS but Chinese made copies produced recently.


----------



## Tom-s

These tubes are known bad. I would not buy them. I was offered 8 tubes in total from different members in this forum. To test their Thomson 6080wa bought on eBay. All were DOA in my test setups. They were made in France. But probably sold off rejects. Also sold off as Telefunken fakes probably. See Jacmusic hall of shame for the story about these. http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.html

Real Cifte/Thomson 6080wa are among the nicest build 6080 in my collection. With nice mica spacers.
See pictures for samples with NOS 6080WA from France. I rarely see these discussed on these forums. Or even on eBay.


----------



## Renexx

Tom-s said:


> These tubes are known bad. I would not buy them. I was offered 8 tubes in total from different members in this forum. To test their Thomson 6080wa bought on eBay. All were DOA in my test setups. They were made in France. But probably sold off rejects. Also sold off as Telefunken fakes probably. See Jacmusic hall of shame for the story about these. http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.html
> 
> Real Cifte/Thomson 6080wa are among the nicest build 6080 in my collection. With nice mica spacers.
> See pictures for samples with NOS 6080WA from France. I rarely see these discussed on these forums. Or even on eBay.


Do they sound different to Thompson 6080?




aldovan said:


> I have the RCA 6AS7G and the GE 6080.
> After burn-in , I prefer the GE....have a animal BASS !!!
> Any information about Raytheon 6080 ?
> What is the best , Raytheon or CSF Thomson ?
> ...


Raytheon 6080 sounds quite close to an Sylvania 6080. Warm, blurry, low resolution. Nothing special. Buy it if you can grab it cheap.

CSF Thompson is less warm, maybe a little bit more resolving but overall not really good. Buy only if it's cheap. Might be a  counter part for your GE 6080 as it's a more balanced tube. 

Your digging at the overall worst 6080s  considering sound quality. They are only side- or downgrades to Svetlana 6as7.


----------



## mordy

Renexx said:


> Do they sound different to Thompson 6080?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In general, the consensus seems to be that GEC 6AS7G, Chatham 6AS7G, Bendix graphite plate 6080WB and GEC 6080 are among the best sounding tubes in this family. 
It is very important to realize that how a tube sounds depends on the amp it is used in, but these tubes usually acquit themselves well in any amp.
In certain applications people like the RCA 6AS7G and Mullard 6080 as well.
There are many other choices - everything depends on the synergy with the driver tubes.


----------



## raindownthunda

mordy said:


> In general, the consensus seems to be that GEC 6AS7G, Chatham 6AS7G, Bendix graphite plate 6080WB and GEC 6080 are among the best sounding tubes in this family.
> It is very important to realize that how a tube sounds depends on the amp it is used in, but these tubes usually acquit themselves well in any amp.
> In certain applications people like the RCA 6AS7G and Mullard 6080 as well.
> There are many other choices - everything depends on the synergy with the driver tubes.


Well said! I’d only add that price doesn’t necessarily correlate with objectively sounding better. The variable of scarcity and unicorn hunting seems to drive up the price which for newcomers can drive you crazy thinking you’re missing out. The “best” tubes for your preference/system might not end up being the most expensive!


----------



## mordy (Nov 30, 2022)

raindownthunda said:


> Well said! I’d only add that price doesn’t necessarily correlate with objectively sounding better. The variable of scarcity and unicorn hunting seems to drive up the price which for newcomers can drive you crazy thinking you’re missing out. The “best” tubes for your preference/system might not end up being the most expensive!


Regarding the Bendix 6080WB (graphite plates) the prices have skyrocketed. However, it is my impression that all graphite plate 6080 tubes were made by Bendix, and if that is the case, you can find better prices under other label names. - It is not difficult to learn how to identify the look of the graphite plate tubes with one caveat: There are some regular plate 6080 tubes with the thick silvery mica holder ring brackets.
If my understanding is not correct (all graphite plate 6080 tubes were made by Bendix), please let me know.







The above pair appears to me to have the regular plates. I would not be surprised if the red print on the tube is fake...
2K for a pair of Raytheon 6080 tubes?
The next picture shows a graphite plate tube:


----------



## JamieMcC

Fwiw with Bendix/Chatham solid graphite plate tubes I've had three maybe four that have had different shaped column sections in the past.


----------



## mordy

JamieMcC said:


> Fwiw with Bendix/Chatham solid graphite plate tubes I've had three maybe four that have had different shaped column sections in the past.


There are at least six different shapes of the graphite plates from what I read.


----------



## karloil (Dec 4, 2022)

Hi everyone, still new to tubes but would very much like to start tube rolling. Been reading and viewing and so far...still learning 😅

Would like to get your opinions with these 2 - Thomson and Tung-sol. From the photos, do they look original? Any red flags that I should take note of?


----------



## bcowen

karloil said:


> Hi everyone, still new to tubes but would very much like to start tube rolling. Been reading and viewing and so far...still learning 😅
> 
> Would like to get your opinions with these 2 - Thomson and Tung-sol. From the photos, do they look original? Any red flags that I should take note of?


The Tung-Sols look legit and are great sounding tubes.  Any measurement data to go along with them?

I'll have to defer on the Thomson.  There are a lot of relabels out there, and I don't know enough about them to tell you what to look for.


----------



## Sweet William

bcowen said:


> The Tung-Sols look legit and are great sounding tubes.  Any measurement data to go along with them?
> 
> I'll have to defer on the Thomson.  There are a lot of relabels out there, and I don't know enough about them to tell you what to look for.


Hi. I recntly bought a Thomson 6080 exactly like the one pictured. I had QC problems wih it and a replacement.
M researches suggests that the pictured Thomson is not original. It is brand new and made by an eletronic co calked DAWN based in Nanjing. They can be found all over the internet. I didsee a NOS Thomson on ebay and its logo and font markings were different. It was about twice the price of the modern ones.
They sound OK. The upper registers are a bit thin and tinny. They take a while to warm up and lack some gain.
However QC problems possibly.


----------



## mordy

It seems to me that this is the real Thomson tube:


----------



## Sweet William

Yes that is the tube I saw on ebay.
The problem we face is deciding what internet ads are selling genuine tubes and are correctly described and those that do not. Caveat emptor.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> It seems to me that this is the real Thomson tube:



To my eyes this looks to be the same tube as the one above, next to the two Tung Sols. It is best to ignore the silk-screened text and graphics and concentrate on the internal construction.


----------



## karloil (Dec 5, 2022)

bcowen said:


> The Tung-Sols look legit and are great sounding tubes.  Any measurement data to go along with them?
> 
> I'll have to defer on the Thomson.  There are a lot of relabels out there, and I don't know enough about them to tell you what to look for.



Thanks for confirming. No data, just those photos. Read that there are a lot of reviews regarding this tube but still hesitant to pull the trigger on a S$100 tube 



Sweet William said:


> Hi. I recntly bought a Thomson 6080 exactly like the one pictured. I had QC problems wih it and a replacement.
> M researches suggests that the pictured Thomson is not original. It is brand new and made by an eletronic co calked DAWN based in Nanjing. They can be found all over the internet. I didsee a NOS Thomson on ebay and its logo and font markings were different. It was about twice the price of the modern ones.
> They sound OK. The upper registers are a bit thin and tinny. They take a while to warm up and lack some gain.
> However QC problems possibly.



I'm more inclined in getting a Thomson 1st as the one I'm looking at is around S$50. And according to an old post here, they sound not that bad.



mordy said:


> It seems to me that this is the real Thomson tube:



Thanks for confirming. Might still need to do further reseach on where to purchase legit tubes.



gibosi said:


> To my eyes this looks to be the same tube as the one above, next to the two Tung Sols. It is best to ignore the silk-screened text and graphics and concentrate on the internal construction.



Thanks for confirming as well.


----------



## gibosi

karloil said:


> Thanks for confirming. No data, just those photos. Read that there are a lot of reviews regarding this tube but still hesitant to pull the trigger on a S$100 tube
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It appears that the date code of the one pictured above with the Tung-Sol's is "8101", and I interpret that to indicate that it was manufactured in the 1980's. Personally, I would be very leery about purchasing vacuum tubes manufactured in the West at such a late date. For example, Sylvania tubes manufactured in the 1980's (while under Philips ownership) have a very poor reputation with respect to quality. And some of the posts above indicate that these late Thomson 6080WA are also of poor quality. So I would suggest that if you want to purchase a Thomson 6080, look for the older text and graphics per @mordy 's post above. While I don't know the dates of these tubes, it appears that they are older. And my motto is "older is better". lol 

 PS: Interestingly the quality of Soviet tubes from the 1980's seem to be quite good.


----------



## Sweet William

gibosi said:


> It appears that the date code of the one pictured above with the Tung-Sol's is "8101", and I interpret that to indicate that it was manufactured in the 1980's. Personally, I would be very leery about purchasing vacuum tubes manufactured in the West at such a late date. For example, Sylvania tubes manufactured in the 1980's (while under Philips ownership) have a very poor reputation with respect to quality. And some of the posts above indicate that these late Thomson 6080WA are also of poor quality. So I would suggest that if you want to purchase a Thomson 6080, look for the older text and graphics per @mordy 's post above. While I don't know the dates of these tubes, it appears that they are older. And my motto is "older is better". lol
> 
> PS: Interestingly the quality of Soviet tubes from the 1980's seem to be quite good.


----------



## Sweet William

I have bought NOS Soviet military tubes from dealers in the Ukraine. You can be pretty sure they are the real thing and are accurately advertised. They tend to be cheap and reasonabke quality for the price.
For what it usworth the 'new' Thomson 6080s are Chinese made , sound OK fir the price but quality of manufacture is questionable.
I use an expensive Shuguang driver tube which is great and I have no problems with it.
I object to tubes like the Thomson being sold on ebay as something they are not. Often they are described in a vague manner-'newNOS' which in my book is deceptive.
One ends up wondering where one can find fairly described tubes that are truly what they are.


----------



## gibosi

Sweet William said:


> I have bought NOS Soviet military tubes from dealers in the Ukraine. You can be pretty sure they are the real thing and are accurately advertised. They tend to be cheap and reasonabke quality for the price.
> For what it usworth the 'new' Thomson 6080s are Chinese made , sound OK fir the price but quality of manufacture is questionable.
> I use an expensive Shuguang driver tube which is great and I have no problems with it.
> I object to tubes like the Thomson being sold on ebay as something they are not. Often they are described in a vague manner-'newNOS' which in my book is deceptive.
> One ends up wondering where one can find fairly described tubes that are truly what they are.



Since the construction of the newer Thomson 6080WA is identical to the older Thomson tubes, I don't understand how you can say that these newer ones are fakes?????


----------



## mordy

gibosi said:


> Since the construction of the newer Thomson 6080WA is identical to the older Thomson tubes, I don't understand how you can say that these newer ones are fakes?????


Are you saying that the Chinese Thomson tubes are re-issues like the Russian re-issue Tung Sols etc?
There are many examples of manufacturers making tubes in different countries using the original tooling (Japan, Yugoslavia and Australia) but in general these tubes sound different compared to the original ones.


----------



## Dogmatrix

Sweet William said:


> I have bought NOS Soviet military tubes from dealers in the Ukraine. You can be pretty sure they are the real thing and are accurately advertised. They tend to be cheap and reasonabke quality for the price.
> For what it usworth the 'new' Thomson 6080s are Chinese made , sound OK fir the price but quality of manufacture is questionable.
> I use an expensive Shuguang driver tube which is great and I have no problems with it.
> I object to tubes like the Thomson being sold on ebay as something they are not. Often they are described in a vague manner-'newNOS' which in my book is deceptive.
> One ends up wondering where one can find fairly described tubes that are truly what they are.


What evidence is there that these are Chinese made ?
I have not seen a Chinese 6080 certainly 6as7g but not 6080
I would have thought that were they in current production there would be Chinese branded examples


----------



## karloil (Dec 7, 2022)

gibosi said:


> It appears that the date code of the one pictured above with the Tung-Sol's is "8101", and I interpret that to indicate that it was manufactured in the 1980's. Personally, I would be very leery about purchasing vacuum tubes manufactured in the West at such a late date. For example, Sylvania tubes manufactured in the 1980's (while under Philips ownership) have a very poor reputation with respect to quality. And some of the posts above indicate that these late Thomson 6080WA are also of poor quality. So I would suggest that if you want to purchase a Thomson 6080, look for the older text and graphics per @mordy 's post above. While I don't know the dates of these tubes, it appears that they are older. And my motto is "older is better". lol
> 
> PS: Interestingly the quality of Soviet tubes from the 1980's seem to be quite good.



Thanks for your reply and inputs.

Been looking around and I'm quite limited with the 6080s that are easily available from were I'm at. So still took the plunge and ordered a Thomson 6080WA  Still cheap enough to swallow should the tube be a lemon. (Or I hope they send the older Thomson 6080 model 

Ordered another tube from the same vendor - in hoping claims/refunds will be much easier (should there be a need). Oh well, hoping I get good tubes.


----------



## Badas

karloil said:


> Thanks for your reply and inputs.
> 
> Been looking around and I'm quite limited with the 6080s that are easily available from were I'm at. So still took the plunge and ordered a Thomson 6080WA  Still cheap enough to swallow should the tube be a lemon. (Or I hope they send the older Thomson 6080 model )
> 
> Ordered another tube from the same vendor - in hoping claims/refunds will be much easier (should there be a need). Oh well, hoping I get good tubes.


They aren't bad. I didn't find them offensive. Kind of mid-range. 
Actually. I should dig them out and re-listen.

Rectifiers and Drive tubes are more important in my opinion. Only mine.
Drivers first, Rectifiers second, Power last.


----------



## karloil

Badas said:


> They aren't bad. I didn't find them offensive. Kind of mid-range.
> Actually. I should dig them out and re-listen.
> 
> Rectifiers and Drive tubes are more important in my opinion. Only mine.
> Drivers first, Rectifiers second, Power last.



Thanks. I did read in old post in this same thread regarding 6080 round-up. And was kinda convinced its a good starter tube for me. 

Will pair it with a 6SN7EH, hope that this pairing sounds well


----------



## Sweet William

Dogmatrix said:


> What evidence is there that these are Chinese made ?
> I have not seen a Chinese 6080 certainly 6as7g but not 6080
> I would have thought that were they in current production there would be Chinese branded examples


----------



## Sweet William

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005004473516465.html?gatewayAdapt=Pc2Msite

I hope this link works...


----------



## Sweet William

Sweet William said:


> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005004473516465.html?gatewayAdapt=Pc2Msite
> 
> I hope this link works...


A 3rd replacement knocked out my DV last night. Three have gone out into the bin.No more.
I have never experienced these problems with any other tube.
Caveat emptor.


----------



## Sweet William

Dogmatrix said:


> What evidence is there that these are Chinese made ?
> I have not seen a Chinese 6080 certainly 6as7g but not 6080
> I would have thought that were they in current production there would be Chinese branded examples


----------



## Sweet William

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005004473516465.html?gatewayAdapt=Pc2Msite


----------



## Dogmatrix

Sweet William said:


> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005004473516465.html?gatewayAdapt=Pc2Msite
> 
> I hope this link works...


Thanks 
They are being sold by a Chinese import export company not a manufacturer so I would still think French made as labeled
Over the years I have been a tube hunter I have not seen any real examples of forgery there are rebrands, but I believe they are legitimate 
The only skullduggery I have seen is in vendors misrepresenting rarity


----------



## Sweet William

Dogmatrix said:


> Thanks
> They are being sold by a Chinese import export company not a manufacturer so I would still think French made as labeled
> Over the years I have been a tube hunter I have not seen any real examples of forgery there are rebrands, but I believe they are legitimate
> The only skullduggery I have seen is in vendors misrepresenting rarity


----------



## Sweet William

They are good looking tubes I must admit. I have read that there is/was a large quantity of these Thomsons in in E Europe that were faulty. I guess every tube is genuine in the sense it is a glass container with electronics inside. At least with tubes like Soviets and old US tubes they look old and in some distress as do their cardboard holders. These French ones look too good to be true. Even the lovely boxes are pristine but they turn out expensive for just a cardboard box.
The Chinese company sells them as 'brand new'.
Another poster has posted an ebay ad for a Thomson that looks the real thing but the printing is in a very different font.


----------



## Deleeh

The tube is actually good.
It has a bit more bass bite than the Mullard in my opinion and is a bit more musical overall.
I like it very much, I don't know where you order it.
But a tip on the side, I would never buy tubes from Aliexpress.
That's more of a Chinese platform where everyone advertises their rubbish, similar to Ebay but more blatant.
Always buy such things from a reputable dealer, also because of the reversal.
Even Ebay is not wrong if the ratings are okay and the price is right.


I almost suspect that the tube broke because of the vaccum which was already at the end.
And was only polished up to sell.
That's part of the deal when you buy tubes, but it shouldn't happen often.
I also had a mistake with 5998 Tung sols 6 months ago and was able to return them.


----------



## Sweet William

When the Thomson was working it was OK.
I bought it off ebay from a British supplier. The first one had been tested allegedly but failed within a day.
I have bought various items off Aliexpress and they have been very good including a Little Dot 2, my DV, Shuguang Treasure and IEMs.
The DV failed last night using another Thomson 6080 supplied.
I have an expensive Shuguang globe SE bought from Grant Fidelity of Calgary and that is fine.
I am not complaining about the sound but the quality of the tube-they fail quickly!


----------



## Dogmatrix

https://www.detailedpedia.com/wiki-Thomson-CSF

Looks like a pretty big outfit , only guessing but perhaps these tubes were the final work of a closing factory as the company shifted to solid state 
One final run to use up all the materials in stock and give time to relocate the workers 
Ending with several container loads of unwanted tubes


----------



## Sweet William

Possibly but one might infer from the circumstantial evidence that they are Chinese knockoffs.
China is a big country and apart from Shuguang and PS Vane I am sure some company there could tool up to produce knockoffs  in say Nanjing as opposed to Shenzhen/ Guangzhou.


----------



## Dogmatrix

Sweet William said:


> Possibly but one might infer from the circumstantial evidence that they are Chinese knockoffs.
> China is a big country and apart from Shuguang and PS Vane I am sure some company there could tool up to produce knockoffs  in say Nanjing as opposed to Shenzhen/ Guangzhou.


They could indeed, but why knockoff an obscure low value French brand when Western Electric and GEC exist
China already make Western Electric copies, but they sell as copies not forgeries 
I don't think the tube market is big enough for a criminal enterprise. Perhaps some employees could use the factory after hours to produce forgeries, but China is not lawless and the government looks very poorly on anything that damages Chinas reputation


----------



## Sweet William

Dogmatrix said:


> They could indeed, but why knockoff an obscure low value French brand when Western Electric and GEC exist
> China already make Western Electric copies, but they sell as copies not forgeries
> I don't think the tube market is big enough for a criminal enterprise. Perhaps some employees could use the factory after hours to produce forgeries, but China is not lawless and the government looks very poorly on anything that damages Chinas reputation


They are sols as 'brand new'. Any original tubes would be new old stock. The AliExpress advert on scrolling down shows them selling Tung Sol and other Western brands. The Chinese must be doing a roaring trade relabelling old stock instead of churning out new ones from their factories.
The counterfeit aspect of any goods concerns the labelling of something to be what it is not.


----------



## maxpudding

Sweet William said:


> They are sols as 'brand new'. Any original tubes would be new old stock. The AliExpress advert on scrolling down shows them selling Tung Sol and other Western brands. The Chinese must be doing a roaring trade relabelling old stock instead of churning out new ones from their factories.
> The counterfeit aspect of any goods concerns the labelling of something to be what it is not.



I wouldn't trust aliexpress "vacuum tube" vendors btw


----------



## Sweet William

maxpudding said:


> I wouldn't trust aliexpress "vacuum tube" vendors btw


You seem to corroborate what I have been saying. Though I have bought other items and have been quite happy with purchases.


----------



## Dogmatrix

Sweet William said:


> They are sols as 'brand new'. Any original tubes would be new old stock. The AliExpress advert on scrolling down shows them selling Tung Sol and other Western brands. The Chinese must be doing a roaring trade relabelling old stock instead of churning out new ones from their factories.
> The counterfeit aspect of any goods concerns the labelling of something to be what it is not.


I have bought from AliExpress before but the process can be quite complicated, so I prefer other options
The Tung-Sol tubes are new/current production a Chinese company legitimately purchased the brand rights
Relabeling in the tube world involves non-manufacturing wholesale companies legitimately purchasing bulk surplus stock and applying their own brand
I have seen no evidence of malicious counterfeit, I have seen vendors misrepresent rebrands and rebrands which are obviously Russian labeled made in England or Germany


----------



## hackstu

I'm interested in some GEC 6080s' for my WA22, and found these from a UK seller, are they genuine? and possibly worth buying?


----------



## Dogmatrix

hackstu said:


> I'm interested in some GEC 6080s' for my WA22, and found these from a UK seller, are they genuine? and possibly worth buying?


Yes


----------



## Dogmatrix (Dec 8, 2022)

Had a good dig around and found these being sold ex China . Price is reasonable and they are listed as CSF not Telefunken but hard to think they are not deliberate fakes
However it is most likely they were printed by CSF for Telefunken


----------



## mordy

hackstu said:


> I'm interested in some GEC 6080s' for my WA22, and found these from a UK seller, are they genuine? and possibly worth buying?


These look like the real thing and are among the best 6080 tubes - well worth having.


----------



## mordy

Dogmatrix said:


> I have bought from AliExpress before but the process can be quite complicated, so I prefer other options
> The Tung-Sol tubes are new/current production a Chinese company legitimately purchased the brand rights
> Relabeling in the tube world involves non-manufacturing wholesale companies legitimately purchasing bulk surplus stock and applying their own brand
> I have seen no evidence of malicious counterfeit, I have seen vendors misrepresent rebrands and rebrands which are obviously Russian labeled made in England or Germany


_I have seen no evidence of malicious counterfeit, I have seen vendors misrepresent rebrands and rebrands which are obviously Russian labeled made in England or Germany_

IMHO, listing Svetlana 6AS7G tubes as British or German made under famous labels and charging hundreds of dollars instead of the $15-30 they are worth, is malicious.


----------



## Dogmatrix

mordy said:


> _I have seen no evidence of malicious counterfeit, I have seen vendors misrepresent rebrands and rebrands which are obviously Russian labeled made in England or Germany_
> 
> IMHO, listing Svetlana 6AS7G tubes as British or German made under famous labels and charging hundreds of dollars instead of the $15-30 they are worth, is malicious.


I agree some vendors lack scruples, but it is likely the tubes are legal and legitimate
For tax reasons companies could legally claim "Made in X" simply by handling or re-boxing imported product


----------



## exchez

hackstu said:


> I'm interested in some GEC 6080s' for my WA22, and found these from a UK seller, are they genuine? and possibly worth buying?


Langrex won't sell you a fake tube, but testing is not rigorous so make sure to use it frequently for a week or two to make sure it doesn't die on you right away. The GEC 6080 is a fantastic tube (it's my favorite 6080), but not the best value due to demand and scarcity. I live in the states and a couple of those--after all is said and done--would be about $500. If it was $350 I would pull the trigger. This particular batch is particularly nice though.


----------



## bcowen

mordy said:


> _I have seen no evidence of malicious counterfeit, I have seen vendors misrepresent rebrands and rebrands which are obviously Russian labeled made in England or Germany_
> 
> IMHO, listing Svetlana 6AS7G tubes as British or German made under famous labels and charging hundreds of dollars instead of the $15-30 they are worth, is malicious.


Fortunately I only paid Svetlana prices for these Svetlana's that were made in England by Amperex.   🤣 

(note the UFO getter)


----------



## pravous

bcowen said:


> Fortunately I only paid Svetlana prices for these Svetlana's that were made in England by Amperex.   🤣
> 
> (note the UFO getter)


You seem to be a discerning consumer.  Can I interest you in a Dumont (GE(c implied) dots of quality) 6as7?   Tested a wee bit better than nos and very tightly matched.  Any chance you are interested in wege high pricing?






Sarcasm aside this was the stock tube in my BHC kit.  I have made some upgrades since then but this was the tube that got me hooked on vacuum tube amplification.


----------



## bcowen

pravous said:


> You seem to be a discerning consumer.  Can I interest you in a Dumont (GE(c implied) dots of quality) 6as7?   Tested a wee bit better than nos and very tightly matched.  Any chance you are interested in wege high pricing?
> 
> 
> Sarcasm aside this was the stock tube in my BHC kit.  I have made some upgrades since then but this was the tube that got me hooked on vacuum tube amplification.


LOL!  It's as hard to fake (a lack of) dots as it is a UFO getter, even for Bangy Bang and Wege_is_high_tubes.   🤣


----------



## mordy

Dogmatrix said:


> I agree some vendors lack scruples, but it is likely the tubes are legal and legitimate
> For tax reasons companies could legally claim "Made in X" simply by handling or re-boxing imported product


It is true that some tubes were marked with a different country than origin for tax purposes. Often imported tubes sold in Germany under German labels (Siemens as an example) were marked FOREIGN as country of origin.
Rebranders like Haltron and Zaerix used tubes from many sources, including GEC and Russian tubes, but the rebrander would never put on a name brand like Amperex or Sylvania on the tubes and boxes.
To sell a Russian made Svetlana tube with the inverted saucer getters as a Telefunken tube  made in W Germany and giving the impression that you are buying a genuine Telefunken tube with the concomitant sky-high prices is not legitimate.
This current ad shows a Haltron Russian made 6AS7G, but it is advertised as a German Telefunken tube:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2541955786...58Fb7Wbj+ZhmjXhvHCjYj6tA==|tkp:Bk9SR7L8u8-eYQ

6AS7 TUBE pair #NOS #NIB #MINT #CV2523 #HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER #AI834 #진공관 #真空管 #大盾阀门 #TELEFUNKEN (BRANDED HALTRON) #AI834 #진공관 #真空管 #大盾阀门 #MATCHED PAIR #TELEFUNKEN (BRANDED HALTRON) #A1834 #진공관 #真空管 #大盾阀门 #DOUBLE TRIODE COKE BOTTLE LONG & LARGE PLATE BLACK BASE DOUBLE CUP GETTER FULL SHINING LARGE & FULL MICA ON TOP 4 + 2 SUPPORT VERY STURDY INNER CONSTRUCTION LARGE & SHARP PLATE WESTERN GERMANY PRODUCTION #OTL BLACK & RUGGERIZED PLATE HEATER Vf 6.3 Volts / If 2.5 Ampere # NOS TUBES


----------



## maxpudding

mordy said:


> It is true that some tubes were marked with a different country than origin for tax purposes. Often imported tubes sold in Germany under German labels (Siemens as an example) were marked FOREIGN as country of origin.
> Rebranders like Haltron and Zaerix used tubes from many sources, including GEC and Russian tubes, but the rebrander would never put on a name brand like Amperex or Sylvania on the tubes and boxes.
> To sell a Russian made Svetlana tube with the inverted saucer getters as a Telefunken tube  made in W Germany and giving the impression that you are buying a genuine Telefunken tube with the concomitant sky-high prices is not legitimate.
> This current ad shows a Haltron Russian made 6AS7G, but it is advertised as a German Telefunken tube:
> ...



He’s definitely high on something.


----------



## karloil

Thanks for all your help...my Thomson just arrived. So far it's working fine, hoping it lasts a long time


----------



## jbua5150

Some help with TungSol 5998 codes please. 
4 tubes all read 6648 under the JAN 5998 markings. 
On the other side 3 read 6635 while one reads 6637. 
Any ideas on what they mean?
Thanks


----------



## gibosi

The date codes indicate a certain week in 1966, which suggests that they were all manufactured at about the same time. Why are there two date codes? My best guess (and again, this is just a guess) is that the vertical date codes indicate the date the tubes were first labeled and warehoused, awaiting shipment to a customer. At this point they could have been sold to almost any customer. But perhaps at a somewhat later date, the tubes were selected to be sold to the US military. They were pulled out of the warehouse, the JAN code was added and the date indicates when this happened.

In the end they were all manufactured at about the same time, and I suspect that the later date codes, 6648, would only have had meaning for government bean counters. But again, I'm just guessing.


----------



## Ripper2860

The tubemaster has spoken.   **

** Greetings, @gibosi!


----------



## jbua5150

gibosi said:


> The date codes indicate a certain week in 1966, which suggests that they were all manufactured at about the same time. Why are there two date codes? My best guess (and again, this is just a guess) is that the vertical date codes indicate the date the tubes were first labeled and warehoused, awaiting shipment to a customer. At this point they could have been sold to almost any customer. But perhaps at a somewhat later date, the tubes were selected to be sold to the US military. They were pulled out of the warehouse, the JAN code was added and the date indicates when this happened.
> 
> In the end they were all manufactured at about the same time, and I suspect that the later date codes, 6648, would only have had meaning for government bean counters. But again, I'm just guessing.


Thanks for the explanation!
These appear to have flashing on the bottom, they seem different from others I have.


----------



## gibosi

jbua5150 said:


> Thanks for the explanation!
> These appear to have flashing on the bottom, they seem different from others I have.



I have a pair of 5998 manufactured in 1968 and they have a halo getter above the top mica and another below the bottom mica. So check to see if yours have a halo getter on the bottom.


----------



## VanHai

gibosi said:


> I have a pair of 5998 manufactured in 1968 and they have a halo getter above the top mica and another below the bottom mica. So check to see if yours have a halo getter on the bottom.


I just received a pair of WE 421A and one tube has double D getter on top, the other has a halo getter on top and a halo getter at the bottom as you described with your 5998. Both tubes have code 813.


----------



## leftside

VanHai said:


> I just received a pair of WE 421A and one tube has double D getter on top, the other has a halo getter on top and a halo getter at the bottom as you described with your 5998. Both tubes have code 813.


Post up some pics. Looks like yours are from 1981. I also have a pair of 1980's WE 421A.


----------



## VanHai

leftside said:


> Post up some pics. Looks like yours are from 1981. I also have a pair of 1980's WE 421A.


You are right, they are from 1981. I will post some pictures tomorrow.


----------



## VanHai (Saturday at 11:16 AM)

VanHai said:


> You are right, they are from 1981. I will post some pictures tomorrow.


Here are pictures of the WE 421A. Both have chrome top, the one on the left has flesh halo getter on top and bottom and the one on the right has double D getter on top


----------



## leftside

I also have a pair with 813 code. And also an even later pair from 1985 (these have the bottom getters). As stated above, these tubes could have been manufactured much earlier and simply "restamped" by WE. I'm not sure to be honest.


----------



## LCMusicLover

Posted WTB — looking for a power tube for this BHC w/ Speedball.

I’m hoping there’s someone out there with an orphan needing a good home.


----------



## nykobing

LCMusicLover said:


> Posted WTB — looking for a power tube for this BHC w/ Speedball.
> 
> I’m hoping there’s someone out there with an orphan needing a good home.


I had a BHC awhile ago and I know I have some good singles left that I will never use, let me have a look tomorrow, believe it or not, I think they are hiding in some kitchen cabinet my wife couldn't reach up to.


----------



## JTbbb

Hello there all,

Just what do I have here? Clear top, bottom D Getters and rectangular top mica supports. The rectangular supports I associate with earlier tubes?
I have seen identical tubes like this marked as ‘Chatham Electronics 5998’ ‘Western Electric 5998/421A’ and ‘Western Electric 421A’ and the internals are the same. And now ‘Chatham Electronics 2399’ with the code No 3002399, which I’m thinking should have the date code in it? Then there is also the number 743, which I take as week 43, 1957?

I am guessing we will never fully understand the why’s and wherefore’s of what manufacturer‘s got up to with markings back then. But any ideas on the pedigree of this tube? Thanks 





























Share


----------



## gibosi

JTbbb said:


> Hello there all,
> 
> Just what do I have here? Clear top, bottom D Getters and rectangular top mica supports. The rectangular supports I associate with earlier tubes?
> I have seen identical tubes like this marked as ‘Chatham Electronics 5998’ ‘Western Electric 5998/421A’ and ‘Western Electric 421A’ and the internals are the same. And now ‘Chatham Electronics 2399’ with the code No 3002399, which I’m thinking should have the date code in it? Then there is also the number 743, which I take as week 43, 1957?
> ...



First, "2399" and "3002399" are IBM inventory parts numbers. IBM purchased so many of these for their early mainframe computers that they were able to ask Chatham to put their inventory numbers on the tubes they bought.

And as you have noticed, quite a few 5998s manufactured around 1957 had bottom getters and clear tops similar to the Western Electric 421A. There is some speculation that they are in fact the same tube, but again that is only speculation.

Enjoy!


----------



## maxpudding

That’s a unicorn tube


----------



## JTbbb

gibosi said:


> First, "2399" and "3002399" are IBM inventory parts numbers. IBM purchased so many of these for their early mainframe computers that they were able to ask Chatham to put their inventory numbers on the tubes they bought.
> 
> And as you have noticed, quite a few 5998s manufactured around 1957 had bottom getters and clear tops similar to the Western Electric 421A. There is some speculation that they are in fact the same tube, but again that is only speculation.
> 
> Enjoy!


Thanks for the detailed reply. And of course, being the owner I will go with it being a WE421A 😀. Having said that, I will be sending this tube for testing in the next couple of months. And I am going to ask my tester if the transconductance can be measured (on paper WE 421A has 20,000 uMhos, and 5998 has 14,000 uMhos). My tester has the AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester, and AVO VCM 163. So am hoping it can be measured. Results could answer the speculation! The tube was bought as testing at NOS levels.


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## SHIMACM

JTbbb said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply. And of course, being the owner I will go with it being a WE421A 😀. Having said that, I will be sending this tube for testing in the next couple of months. And I am going to ask my tester if the transconductance can be measured (on paper WE 421A has 20,000 uMhos, and 5998 has 14,000 uMhos). My tester has the AVO MK IV Valve Characteristic Tester, and AVO VCM 163. So am hoping it can be measured. Results could answer the speculation! The tube was bought as testing at NOS levels.



I have a valve just like yours only named "Chatham 5998". With internals similar to those of the WE 421a and transparent top with the getter at the bottom.

Looking forward to your test result.


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## JTbbb

SHIMACM said:


> I have a valve just like yours only named "Chatham 5998". With internals similar to those of the WE 421a and transparent top with the getter at the bottom.
> 
> Looking forward to your test result.


I may hasten this to the fella that tests my tubes now! I used to own a pair of “Chatham 5998’s” and I wouldn’t say the internals were similar to early WE 421a’s, they were identical, as is this IBM marked tube. I hope the results I get will be conclusive!


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