# GUSTARD H10 High-current Discrete Class A output Stage Headphone Amplifier



## phcassa

I'm very curious about this amp, specially after the opnion ofe an experienced member of this community.


flysweep said:


> It absolutely does.  Gain switches are on the back (-12, -6, +6, +12).. so it's got the versatility to drive everything from my highly sensitive cIEM (UERM) to the 560 with ease.  Here's the eBay page from where I purchased it.  I had an extremely smooth transaction and the seller was excellent to deal with.  I've had the amp for a couple of weeks and couldn't be happier with it.  In my time in this hobby, I've owned and listened to enough SS amps to get a good idea of the landscape.. and this amp is better than anything I've heard at the price point..and one of the best ss amps I've heard under $1000.  It's the last solid state amp I anticipate buying for the foreseeable future, actually... I'm that satisfied with it.


 
  
  
  

  
*Gustard H10 is presented as follow:*
  
GUSTARD H10 High-current Discrete Class A output Stage Headphone Amplifier
 
 
 
Features:
 
1.H10 is a high-current discrete Class A output stage headphone amplifiers, each channel consists of two independent amplification circuit, has RCA inputs, balanced input, you can easily connect a variety of sources.
 
2 machine using a buffer amplifier plus pre-amplification stage main components. Buffer preamp gain adjustment function with four segments, with the four pairs of audio power output circuit tubes on the CPI, you can easily drive a variety of different impedance headphones.
 
3 using two 25W seal ring cattle, independent power between left and right channels, effectively reducing the left and right channel crosstalk.
 
4.AC115V/230V international voltage input.
 
5 Adjust the volume potentiometer placed at the back of the input stage, effectively shortening the audio channel path, reducing interference.
 
6 start-up delay, DC offset, overload, protection circuitry to ensure the safe use of the machine.
 
7 aluminum chassis, before grinding Shahoulasi processes, machines all black.
 
8.RCA single-ended and balanced XLR inputs, input switching and gain adjustment.
 
9 tri-band balanced sound correctly, the output resistance low current, suitable for most headphone mix.
 
10. Rigorous design, reasonable layout, elegant lines, solid materials.
 
 
 
Technical Specifications:
 
Signal Input: 2x XLR female, balance
 
2x RCA, unbalanced
 
Maximum input level: +21 dBu, impedance 10kΩ
 
Input impedance: XLR: 10kΩ, RCA: 68kΩ
 
Input Sensitivity: +6 dBu
 
Main amplifier gain: +8 dB
 
Main amplifier gain adjustment range: -4 / +2 / +8 / +14 / +20 dB
 
Frequency response: 0-55kHz (-0.5dB)
 
Damping Factor:> 400 @ 50Ω
 
Dynamic range:> 128dB (A-weighted)
 
Background noise: <-100dBu (A-weighted)
 
THD + N (1kHz 1W @ 100Ω): <0.00035%
 
THD + N (1kHz 0.5W @ 32Ω): <0.0007%
 
Crosstalk:-110db (1kHz)
 
Headphone Output: 1x 6.35mm TRS Jack
 
output powerifferent impedance has different output power 
 Output power: 570 mW (600 ohm load); 2200 mW (100 ohms); 2700 mW (50 ohms); 2000 mW (32 ohms); 1000 mW (16 ohms)
 
Power supply voltage: 230V AC/115 AC; 50/60Hz
 
Power consumption: ≤ 20VA
 
Machine Standard: GB a three-prong power cord
 
Machine size (not included prominent part): length × width × height = 273mm × 190mm × 70mm
 
Package dimensions: length × width × height = 385 × 280 × 150mm
 
Weight: Net Weight 3.3KG, including packaging 4KG
 
 
Look really nice to me. However, wold this be an amplifier clone of Violectric V200 or just something that has used V200 as a start pointing?I find then visually very similar.
 
V200 view by inside:
 
    
 

  
 I really would like to know opinions about this amp.
 My english is not very good, so sorry.


----------



## zilch0md

Hi phcassa,
  
 Thanks for starting this thread!  
  
 I'm also very curious about this amp.  
  
 FlySweep is indeed a trustworthy reviewer, and if it helps at all, I can say that he has been a fan of the Bottlehead Crack and HD650, for example.  So to hear him recommending a solid state amp, suggests that it is warm and full bodied, with good dynamics and bass energy, not laid back or perfectly neutral, but I haven't written him about it yet.
  
 He's the only Head-Fi member I know of who has the Gustard H10, so...  PM sent.  
  
 FlySweep!  We need you!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Mike


----------



## xaval

Nice internals. Hope it ships with the complete left balanced plug on the back


----------



## No_One411

Hey guys, 
  
 I may not be as well known as Flysweep, but I did also purchase a Gustard H10 after Flysweep recommended it. I've had the unit for about a week, so I can share my initial thoughts. 
  
 It drives my Paradox Slants and Enigmas perfectly. The amp has lots of power, and is very clean sounding. It controls planar magnetic drivers very very well, has very low noise (if any) and black background, is very dynamic sounding, and throws a very accurate and realistic soundstage, almost on par with my HD800 with Anax 2.0 mod!
  
 With regards to the HD800, the Gustard does a great job of driving them as well, albeit does sound thin at times, but that can also be attributed to the music that I am listening to. Wide soundstaging is important with classical music, but you shouldn't hear gaps in the orchestra. It's not overly revealing, or bright, as some may expect from solid state amps, but it isn't necessarily warm or tube sounding either. It has a very natural sound, and sounds good with almost everything that I've thrown at it.
  
 Overall, I think it's a very good amp for the money. I can't compare it to the Vioelectric, since I haven't heard it, but the two look very similar. For $400 shipped, it's a well built amp and drives all the headphones I've thrown at it with ease.


----------



## phcassa

xaval said:


> Nice internals. Hope it ships with the complete left balanced plug on the back


 
 Yes Xaval, I think someone will be unemployed after this picture.


----------



## phcassa

zilch0md said:


> Hi phcassa,
> 
> Thanks for starting this thread!
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Mike
  
 He may have had a shock counterpoint caused by solid state.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
 I really like to hear him more opinion on this.
  
  
 Jeff, thanks for share your opinion. Its a good start point. Thanks. The amp seems to be very good project, has independent power supply transformes, large filters. This wont make a big difference.


----------



## FlySweep

H10 w/ the Paradox Slants & CustomArt Harmony 8 Pro..


----------



## xxxfbsxxx

flysweep said:


> H10 w/ the Paradox Slants & CustomArt Harmony 8 Pro..


 
 nice pics and how does it sound please


----------



## zilch0md

Yes, Flysweep!  
  
 How does it sound?
  
 Inquiring minds want to know!
  




  
 Mike


----------



## FlySweep

I'd like to gather my thoughts over the weekend.. but let me say this.

 This is an absolutely PHENOMENAL amplifier.

 I've been hush hush on impressions because I've been patiently waiting for it to break in.. which, in my case, took nearly a month and a half (when being used daily for approx. 4 hrs/day).  Since owning this amp.. I've been impressed with it.. not blown away.. but really impressed.  The neutrality (neutrality _done right_), clarity.. stunning lack of grain, and control.. was very nice.. but the H10 sounded quite compressed and a bit lean.

 That all changed tonight... _my goodness_.

 ..more to come, folks... please let me pick my jaw up off the ground first.


----------



## zilch0md

> (when being used daily for approx. 4 months)


 
  
 Should read...   "(when being used daily for approx. 4 hours each day)"


----------



## borrego

This is a Chinese clone of the Violectric V200 with independent power supply per channel and volume control pod soldered directly on the circuit board.


----------



## FlySweep

borrego said:


> This is a Chinese clone of the Violectric V200 with independent power supply per channel and volume control pod soldered directly on the circuit board.


 
  
 To my ears.. it sounds better than the V200 (which I owned for quite some time.. albeit, awhile back).  The H10 possesses a larger soundstage than the V200.. the V200's mids (and really, the presentation in general) sounded more dry, comparatively speaking.. the H10 is better balanced in terms of tone (it's not dry.. but not lush, either).. and the H10 possesses better treble clarity (I found the V200's treble ever so slightly (but audibly) rolled off in the upper treble).  The H10 certainly doesn't spotlight the highs, though.. it's very smooth through the treble.. but seems better extended (or I perceive better extension) than the V200.  The H10 also seems to possess a wider (and deeper) soundstage.


----------



## zilch0md

^ With which DAC and headphones?   
  
 Mike
 (Being a brat, again - for the greater good, hopefully.)


----------



## borrego

flysweep said:


> To my ears.. it sounds better than the V200 (which I owned for quite some time.. albeit, awhile back).  The H10 possesses a larger soundstage than the V200.. the V200's mids (and really, the presentation in general) sounded more dry, comparatively speaking.. the H10 is better balanced in terms of tone (it's not dry.. but not lush, either).. and the H10 possesses better treble clarity (I found the V200's treble ever so slightly (but audibly) rolled off in the upper treble).  The H10 certainly doesn't spotlight the highs, though.. it's very smooth through the treble.. but seems better extended (or I perceive better extension) than the V200.  The H10 also seems to possess a wider (and deeper) soundstage.




It sounds like the benefit if the dual mono design. Does the Gustard use the NE5532 opamp the V200 uses?


----------



## No_One411

I'm enjoying my Gustard H10 with all three of these headphones. 
  
 For the price and how good it sounds, I have very little complaints.


----------



## zilch0md

no_one411 said:


> I'm enjoying my Gustard H10 with all three of these headphones.
> 
> For the price and how good it sounds, I have very little complaints.


 
  
 Thanks for this recommendation.  Which DAC do you use with the H10 and HD800?
  
 Mike


----------



## No_One411

zilch0md said:


> Thanks for this recommendation.  Which DAC do you use with the H10 and HD800?
> 
> Mike


 
 Hi Mike, 
  
 I use the H10 with Anedio D2, ODAC, and Geek Out 720 at the moment. 
  
 Anedio D2 sounds the best to me, and the Geek Out 720 edges out the ODAC. Very happy with all of them with the H10 and HD800. 
  
 With the +6 dB preamp gain on the back of the Gustard H10, I'm at around 9 o'clock on the volume knob. This amp has so much flexible power available it's ridiculous. 
  
 For whatever reason, the balanced line out from the Anedio D2 into the Gustard H10 XLR inputs sounds a bit different, a bit more dynamic with a little bit wider soundstage, but might be my imagination. I try not to worry about it too much. The combo sounds great to my ears. 
  
 The H10 and HD800 did sound a little bit thin when I first received the unit, but it sounds great now. Might be brain burn in or just me getting used to the sound. 
  
 Hope this helps. I haven't had the amp for a long time, but I am very satisfied with it.


----------



## zilch0md

^ Interesting!
  
 In your opinion, would you say that the HD800 sounds better with the GO 720 Line Out to your ODAC or with the HD800 plugged directly into the GO 720 Headphone Out?
  
 I'm asking, because a lot of people say the HD800 sounds great from the GO 720 or 1000 Headphone Out, but I've always wondered - is it the GO's DAC that's responsible for their satisfaction or the amp?
  
 This would help me get a better feel for what you wrote, above.
  
 By the way, Flysweep has both the H10 and the GO 1000, but he doesn't currently have the HD800 - and its the HD800 I'm curious about for use with the H10.
  
 Also of interest is your statement that the H10 is improving with time - that's definitely FlwSweep's conclusion, as well.  Apparently, you will enjoy it getting better and better for a while yet.
  
 Thanks!
  
 Mike


----------



## No_One411

zilch0md said:


> ^ Interesting!
> 
> In your opinion, would you say that the HD800 sounds better with the GO 720 Line Out to your ODAC or with the HD800 plugged directly into the GO 720 Headphone Out?
> 
> ...


 
 Hmmm, don't know about GO 720 line out to ODAC, but GO 720 line out to H10 sounds great. I generally don't plug in the HD800 directly into the GO 720 since I'm using the stock cable and don't like using adapters. The couple of times I did try it, the HD800 sounded fine straight from the GO 720. A little rough in the treble, but nothing outrageous.
  
 For me at least, the GO's DAC implementation is the key. I've found that even the Vali sounds better to me out of the GO instead of the GO directly. Also, I can only speak for the 720 unit, and I'm not sure if there are any other differences between each variation other than power. That's not to say that the amplifier portion of the GO is bad by any means, I simply use it more for the DAC and use an external amp from the line out.
  
 With regards to the H10 improving over time, what I mean with that statement was that I initially enjoyed the Vali with the HD800 over the H10, when I first received the amp, but would have taken the H10 over the Vali for planar magnetic headphones. Now, a couple of weeks since I received the amp, I find myself simply plugging everything into the H10 and leaving the poor Vali sitting cold on my desk. It could be a number of things, but I am starting the enjoy the H10 a lot more than when I first received the amp. Noise may be a factor as well, since the H10 has a much lower noise floor than the Vali, which still hums during startup even after the muting relay is shutdown.


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks for answering!  Sooner or later, I think I'll have to try an H10...


----------



## bala

Has anybody else pulled the trigger for the H10, this thread seems to lack the usual "hype-drive" associated with Headfi gear threads 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Though I take that as a good sign!


----------



## No_One411

bala said:


> Has anybody else pulled the trigger for the H10, this thread seems to lack the usual "hype-drive" associated with Headfi gear threads
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I think people are a little bit wary of purchasing something made in China that looks very similar to Violectric amps...
  
 It's a shame since the amp does sound fantastic. I think I may be one of 2-3 people with this amp at the moment, and I lack the motivation to push this to hype status.


----------



## FlySweep

My apologies for not giving more impressions on this amp.. consider my silence as a very big compliment to the H10.. even after two plus months of continuous/daily use, I'd rather listen with it than type about it (LOL).
  
 Really though.. it's a wonderful amp.. to my ears, it took a good 100 hours or so to "open up."  The soundstage is really spacious, but accurate.  What I love most about this amp (aside from the soundstage and lack of grainy resolution) is that's it's able to sound very neutral and transparent.. yet remain wonderfully full bodied and natural (in terms of timbre).  If you associate the words "cold" & "clinical" sounding with "neutral" amplifiers, I'm confident your opinion will change after you use this amp.  I've found the H10 to pair exceedingly well with the LCD-2/F and HE-560.. and am quite confident it'll sound great with all the other well-regarded planars of today.  I recently decided to get the HD650 (again) so I'll provide impressions on that pairing as well.. but again, based on how well it's sounded with everything else I've tossed at the H10, I highly doubt the HD 650 will sound anything less than terrific.
  
 As I've said before.. I've heard and/or owned a lot of solid state amps.. many impressed me.. but over time, some flaw or quality revealed itself to me and eventually became distracting enough that I had to jettison the amp.  After having (heavily) used the H10 for the better part of nearly three months, I'm honestly hard pressed to find anything I don't like about it.  It's might not wow you with "wiz bang" fireworks, but for me, I've always been more impressed with solid state amps that tend to do fewer things wrong than try to get everything right. The H10 does just that.


----------



## Kyno

flysweep said:


> My apologies for not giving more impressions on this amp.. consider my silence as a very big compliment to the H10.. even after two plus months of continuous/daily use, I'd rather listen with it than type about it (LOL).
> 
> Really though.. it's a wonderful amp.. to my ears, it took a good 100 hours or so to "open up."  The soundstage is really spacious, but accurate.  What I love most about this amp (aside from the soundstage and lack of grainy resolution) is that's it's able to sound very neutral and transparent.. yet remain wonderfully full bodied and natural (in terms of timbre).  If you associate the words "cold" & "clinical" sounding with "neutral" amplifiers, I'm confident your opinion will change after you use this amp.  I've found the H10 to pair exceedingly well with the LCD-2/F and HE-560.. and am quite confident it'll sound great with all the other well-regarded planars of today.  I recently decided to get the HD650 (again) so I'll provide impressions on that pairing as well.. but again, based on how well it's sounded with everything else I've tossed at the H10, I highly doubt the HD 650 will sound anything less than terrific.
> 
> As I've said before.. I've heard and/or owned a lot of solid state amps.. many impressed me.. but over time, some flaw or quality revealed itself to me and eventually became distracting enough that I had to jettison the amp.  After having (heavily) used the H10 for the better part of nearly three months, I'm honestly hard pressed to find anything I don't like about it.  It's might not wow you with "wiz bang" fireworks, but for me, I've always been more impressed with solid state amps that tend to do fewer things wrong than try to get everything right. The H10 does just that.


 
  
 Thanks a lot for the feedback!
  
 Having the HD-650 on my head at the moment, I'll definitely be interested to hear more about the pairing. I was also thinking I might try orthos with the HE-560... this would come in handy.
  
 I was hesitating with Garage 1217 Polaris, but I'm starting to be very curious about the H10.


----------



## stuartmc

You guys have me REALLY interested in this amp.  It can now be had for $356 delivered and that's ridiculously inexpensive for the build and sound quality you guys are talking about.  I have a DAC with balanced outputs coming soon and I've been searching for an affordable balanced amp to pair with it.  Since this one has beaucoup gain settings and can drive just about any headphones, I don't think I need to look much further.  My favorite cans right now are HD600's, so I too am anxious to hear FlySweep's take on the HD650 pairing.


----------



## FlySweep

I've been listening to the Paradox Slants w/ the H10 (and Geek Out 1000.. on the latest firmware) this evening.. I'm so impressed.. and more importantly, extremely _satisfied_ with this combination.  The Paradox Slants are deceptively power hungry, too.. on standard (0 dB) pre-gain, the H10 boasts strikingly precise driver control and clarity  For being a closed phone, it's remarkable how "open" the Slants sound.. and the H10 does nothing but allow the Slants to completely "show off" in this regard.  I hear terrific instrument separation and layering that comes across in a very effortless manner.  Again, the words "grainless," "transparent," "resolving,"and "natural" keep coming to mind when I want to describe this amp.  The stage is vast and images impeccably well.  I love how detailed the treble is, yet it isn't harsh or peaky in the slightest.
  
 I'm planning on sending my Slants on a CONUS tour (like I did with my original Paradox).. maybe I need to include the H10 with it?


----------



## cocolinho

FlySweep

By coincidence I also own GO1000 and a set of Slants and I'm interested by this V200 clone... Reading your comments I will give a try. 
So how big is the difference between GO1000 headphones out and GO1000 + H10? What is the biggest benefit? 
Thanks


----------



## stuartmc

Hey FlySweep, you really know how to get the juices flowing - it's a gift brother and you've got it.  Back oh, about 18 years ago, my editor in chief at Positive Feedback magazine told me that I wrote some of the best "audio pornography" he had ever read....ha ha, that stuck with me, so whenever someone writes in a way that makes me take notice and get an audio chubby, I refer to it as audio porn that feeds the 'ole audiophilia nervosa.
  
 I have been on a mission the past few days and I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on the H10.  The stuff I've found has been quite interesting and what I haven 't found has been equally intriguing. First, what I haven't found - there seems to be no company listing or home page for Gustard whatsoever. All the sellers use the same canned pictures, so I presume they came from somewhere, but where?!...for crying out loud.  Try searching the Chinese sites and blogs and you won't find any real reviews or extensive commentary on this product, nope, just the same group of five or six canned photos and the same specifications listing.
  
 Ah, but the specifications listing and the picture of the guts inside does tell us something interesting.  It has already been mentioned that the H10 is a Violectric HPA-V200 clone, but just how much, I asked myself.  Well, there really is a chinese clone in every way and that would be the Accurate Audio HPA-A200 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19491833305&clk1=6a8dc56428b8a163a677f466eb440ce1&upsid=6a8dc56428b8a163a677f466eb440ce1.  Now that's what I call a clone! Ha ha.  The Gustard H10 pays homage to the V200 but isn't a complete knockoff.  In fact, they may have slightly improved on the design.  The specifications listing for the H10 is virtually identical to the listing of the V200-- so much so, that it's spooky. A careful look at the pics and basic parts shows many similarites, like the caps used, the gain switches, the phono jack, the Alps pot,etc., but the larger cabinet size has allowed them to use a more simplified and I think, elegant layout.  It has allowed them to double down on the transformers, with one for each channel, provided a straight row of caps, and placed the alps pot on the back of the board for a shorter signal path.  Now, whether these modificatons actually yield better sound is debatable and until someone can do a direct, level matched A/B, we may never know, but at least theoretically (and only on the surface), I believe the H10 to be the better design. I also like the understated faceplate design and the fashionista in me likes the way the black with white letters match my new Aune S16 balanced DAC. When you take into consideration that the same ebay seller that sold to FlySweep is now offering the H10 delivered for $352, this gets beyond interesting/intriguing and ventures into the realm of  the "stupid good."  
  
 Geesh, I think I just gave myself an audio chubby. Better just buy it now.


----------



## stuartmc

....and I did! The PollyChen fellow from eBay seems to be responsive and wants to make a good name for his store, so we'll see how it goes. I'll report back when the H10 arrives.


----------



## john57

If the H10  and the Violectric on the warmer side I think that I would prefer neutral to slight cooler.


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> ....and I did! The PollyChen fellow from eBay seems to be responsive and wants to make a good name for his store, so we'll see how it goes. I'll report back when the H10 arrives.


 
  
 Thank you for taking one for the team!


----------



## Kyno

stuartmc said:


> ....and I did! The PollyChen fellow from eBay seems to be responsive and wants to make a good name for his store, so we'll see how it goes. I'll report back when the H10 arrives.


 
 Found how to order it, I'm probably going to pull the trigger in the following days too


----------



## stuartmc

kyno said:


> Found how to order it, I'm probably going to pull the trigger in the following days too


 
 If you are dealing with pollychen0306 on Ebay, tell him Stuart sent ya! ha ha...maybe he will expedite my order.


----------



## Kyno

stuartmc said:


> If you are dealing with pollychen0306 on Ebay, tell him Stuart sent ya! ha ha...maybe he will expedite my order.


 
 Hehe, I need to contact him about shipping so I might 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The only thing I'm afraid about this amp is the lack of warranty. I'd have 5 years with the Garage 1217 Polaris now known to pair well with the HE-560, whereas this one would be a pure loss if it stopped working :/


----------



## stuartmc

zilch0md said:


> Thank you for taking one for the team!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## stuartmc

kyno said:


> Hehe, I need to contact him about shipping so I might
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Pollychen's site says he gives a one year warranty. I think he requires you to pay shipping to him and then he covers the return shipping.  It may not be the most practical of warranties, but at least it is offered.  Most amplifier failures occur way before the one year mark, so I'm not too worried.


----------



## Kyno

stuartmc said:


> Pollychen's site says he gives a one year warranty. I think he requires you to pay shipping to him and then he covers the return shipping.  It may not be the most practical of warranties, but at least it is offered.  Most amplifier failures occur way before the one year mark, so I'm not too worried.


 
 Ha! I wrongly assumed there wouldn't be a warranty... lesson learned 
  
 Well, being in Europe, I'd also have to pay shipping to the US for a failed Polaris so it's about equal for me. Remains the 1y vs 5y, but I suppose most failures bound to happen because of a deficiency indeed happen rapidly, although I still wonder how likely it is to fail after a while. Does this kind of amp generate a lot of heat?


----------



## stuartmc

kyno said:


> Ha! I wrongly assumed there wouldn't be a warranty... lesson learned
> 
> Well, being in Europe, I'd also have to pay shipping to the US for a failed Polaris so it's about equal for me. Remains the 1y vs 5y, but I suppose most failures bound to happen because of a deficiency indeed happen rapidly, although I still wonder how likely it is to fail after a while. Does this kind of amp generate a lot of heat?





Well it is class A biased, but there is a fairly massive heat sink running the length of the cabinet, so I would think it dissipates it's heat handily. Flysweep could let us know definitively, but I'll wager it's way cooler than any of the Schiit amps.


----------



## Sergey Kor

Hello everyone! 
 Yes wondering how it differs from the sound Violectric V200, advantages and disadvantages, if any (other than price).


----------



## No_One411

kyno said:


> Ha! I wrongly assumed there wouldn't be a warranty... lesson learned
> 
> Well, being in Europe, I'd also have to pay shipping to the US for a failed Polaris so it's about equal for me. Remains the 1y vs 5y, but I suppose most failures bound to happen because of a deficiency indeed happen rapidly, although I still wonder how likely it is to fail after a while. Does this kind of amp generate a lot of heat?


 
 Hi, 
  
 I have the Gustard H10 on daily for about 6 hours and it does not seem to get very hot at all...
  
 Compared to other Class A amplifiers, it actually runs quite cool. 
  
 Hope this helps!
  
 --Jeff


----------



## Kyno

no_one411 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have the Gustard H10 on daily for about 6 hours and it does not seem to get very hot at all...
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, it does. I guess some heat isn't an issue, or we would all have our computers failing within a year, so as long as I can't cook eggs on it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Out of curiosity, how would you compare your H10 to your O2?


----------



## No_One411

kyno said:


> Thanks, it does. I guess some heat isn't an issue, or we would all have our computers failing within a year, so as long as I can't cook eggs on it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I don't think the two can even compare. The H10 is overall a better amplifier than the O2. 
  
 I'll put it this way... I haven't listened to my O2 at all since I got the H10. It got relegated to my work desk.


----------



## stuartmc

no_one411 said:


> I don't think the two can even compare. The H10 is overall a better amplifier than the O2.
> 
> I'll put it this way... I haven't listened to my O2 at all since I got the H10. It got relegated to my work desk.



Thanks for your input Jeff. I'm most intrigued by your comments about running balanced from the Anedio. One of the things that sold me on the H10 was it's fully balanced inputs. I have noticed in the past with preamp and amps, that the balanced xlr connections seemed to lower the noise floor and slightly expand the soundstage. I'm hoping that this holds true with my balanced DAC feeding it. I have identical interconnects with rca's and xlr's, so I'll play with this when the H10 arrives.


----------



## No_One411

stuartmc said:


> Thanks for your input Jeff. I'm most intrigued by your comments about running balanced from the Anedio. One of the things that sold me on the H10 was it's fully balanced inputs. I have noticed in the past with preamp and amps, that the balanced xlr connections seemed to lower the noise floor and slightly expand the soundstage. I'm hoping that this holds true with my balanced DAC feeding it. I have identical interconnects with rca's and xlr's, so I'll play with this when the H10 arrives.


 
 Hmmm....
  
 The Gustard only has single ended output, so I don't know whether there is technically any advantage from using the XLR inputs. 
  
 With that said, I do notice that there is a slight improvement with clarity, and I do notice a slightly wider and deeper soundstage with my large orchestra tracks. I simply use the XLR inputs so that I can use my Anedio's RCA outputs to simultaenously power my Vali. With balanced outputs, I'm able to use the 0 dB pre-gain setting, and stay below 12. This is probably because of the increased output levels from the Anedio XLR outputs.
  
 Even from the RCA inputs though, the Gustard never sounds boring, thin, or harsh. The amp is very dynamic, and lies slightly warmer side of perfectly neutral. If you've heard the Matrix M-stage, the Gustard servers as an improvement in every aspect. This statement also extends to the O2 as well. 
  
 While the Gustard H10 is very similar to the Violectric amps, I'm afraid I can't comment much on that comparison since my experience with those amps is very very limited.


----------



## john57

no_one411 said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> The Gustard only has single ended output, so I don't know whether there is technically any advantage from using the XLR inputs.


 
 It may be possible that the XLR inputs goes to a slightly different path in the amp and maybe both + and - signals are being used not just one on each side.  The circuit could be balanced inside but not at the output.


----------



## Sergey Kor

Thank you very much. Your comments were helpful to me.


----------



## Sergey Kor

no_one411 said:


> stuartmc said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for your input Jeff. I'm most intrigued by your comments about running balanced from the Anedio. One of the things that sold me on the H10 was it's fully balanced inputs. I have noticed in the past with preamp and amps, that the balanced xlr connections seemed to lower the noise floor and slightly expand the soundstage. I'm hoping that this holds true with my balanced DAC feeding it. I have identical interconnects with rca's and xlr's, so I'll play with this when the H10 arrives.
> ...


 
 Thank you very much. Your comments were helpful to me.


----------



## No_One411

john57 said:


> It may be possible that the XLR inputs goes to a slightly different path in the amp and maybe both + and - signals are being used not just one on each side.  The circuit could be balanced inside but not at the output.


 
 That is certainly very possible. I haven't actually opened up the amp to see what it's actually doing with each of the connections. 
  
 If it is indeed a dual-mono balanced configuration though, I would have imagined that they would have had XLR outputs to imply balanced output...


----------



## john57

no_one411 said:


> That is certainly very possible. I haven't actually opened up the amp to see what it's actually doing with each of the connections.
> 
> If it is indeed a dual-mono balanced configuration though, I would have imagined that they would have had XLR outputs to imply balanced output...


 
 The GUSTARD H10 uses a clam style case that I can see. the top two screws in the back and the front side screws and the top half may come off. I noticed that there is a op-amp near the XLR inputs. It is very possible that it is a differential op-amp that uses both + and - signals. The single ended input may just tied to just one leg of the op-amp would be my guess but I do not see it so far from the pictures. There are another pair of op-amps driving the output devices that I can see.


----------



## stuartmc

john57 said:


> The GUSTARD H10 uses a clam style case that I can see. the top two screws in the back and the front side screws and the top half may come off. I noticed that there is a op-amp near the XLR inputs. It is very possible that it is a differential op-amp that uses both + and - signals. The single ended input may just tied to just one leg of the op-amp would be my guess but I do not see it so far from the pictures. There are another pair of op-amps driving the output devices that I can see.


 
 The design is essentially the same as the Violectric V200, so if we have some info about how the Lake People do it, we can reasonably conclude the same for the H10.  Indeed the V200 has balanced and single ended inputs just like the H10 and the V200 has single ended heaphone output (albeit two jacks for buddy listening) just like the H10.


----------



## SDBiotek

no_one411 said:


> That is certainly very possible. I haven't actually opened up the amp to see what it's actually doing with each of the connections.
> 
> If it is indeed a dual-mono balanced configuration though, I would have imagined that they would have had XLR outputs to imply balanced output...


 
 Many amps have some variation of dual-mono, but only have single-ended outputs, so you still get some of the same benefit as having a start to finish balanced chain. I imagine that is pretty common because most headphones are not wired for balanced use, and also just because it allows manufacturers to keep down cost of parts and labor.
  
 I caved in and ordered an H10, and received it today. I'm using my AK100 II as a source, and it drives my Audeze XCs very well with a lot of authority, and a deep soundstage. The presentation isn't perhaps as wide as I've experienced with other amps, but the H10 sounds outstanding so far.


----------



## Kyno

no_one411 said:


> I don't think the two can even compare. The H10 is overall a better amplifier than the O2.
> 
> I'll put it this way... I haven't listened to my O2 at all since I got the H10. It got relegated to my work desk.


 
  
 Thanks. That's what I would have assumed, but that's good to hear


----------



## stuartmc

sdbiotek said:


> Many amps have some variation of dual-mono, but only have single-ended outputs, so you still get some of the same benefit as having a start to finish balanced chain. I imagine that is pretty common because most headphones are not wired for balanced use, and also just because it allows manufacturers to keep down cost of parts and labor.
> 
> I caved in and ordered an H10, and received it today. I'm using my AK100 II as a source, and it drives my Audeze XCs very well with a lot of authority, and a deep soundstage. The presentation isn't perhaps as wide as I've experienced with other amps, but the H10 sounds outstanding so far.



I guess this thread got to you too. Give us your thoughts as it breaks in. I suspect the soundstage will open up after more burn in. Curious, who did you get your H10 from?


----------



## SDBiotek

stuartmc said:


> I guess this thread got to you too. Give us your thoughts as it breaks in. I suspect the soundstage will open up after more burn in. Curious, who did you get your H10 from?



I also bought mine from the seller Pollychen on eBay.


----------



## stuartmc

sdbiotek said:


> I also bought mine from the seller Pollychen on eBay.




Ha ha...I told him to take good care of us and we'd make him our go to guy.


----------



## Kyno

stuartmc said:


> Ha ha...I told him to take good care of us and we'd make him our go to guy.


 
  
 I just bought mine from him too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just one available left, still at $350 for 24h.


----------



## zilch0md

no_one411 said:


> Even from the RCA inputs though, the Gustard never sounds boring, thin, or harsh. The amp is very dynamic, and lies slightly warmer side of perfectly neutral.





Your comments sound like my perception of FlysSweep's taste in amps - which I long ago concluded were similar to mine. (Drawing me closer to placing an order.)




zilch0md said:


> FlySweep is indeed a trustworthy reviewer, and if it helps at all, I can say that he has been a fan of the Bottlehead Crack and HD650, for example.  So to hear him recommending a solid state amp, suggests that it is warm and full bodied, with good dynamics and bass energy, not laid back or perfectly neutral, but I haven't written him about it yet.


----------



## stuartmc

Election day and my H10 arrives tomorrow. I think this portends good things all around!


----------



## No_One411

stuartmc said:


> Election day and my H10 arrives tomorrow. I think this portends good things all around!


 
 I don't think you'll be disappointed. It's great to see other people taking the leap of faith on the Gustard, especially since it's rather unknown and made in China. 
  
 Everybody seems to have such a bad connotation of products made in China nowadays that I'm glad to see that there are products out there today to show that it simply isn't the case.


----------



## stuartmc

no_one411 said:


> I don't think you'll be disappointed. It's great to see other people taking the leap of faith on the Gustard, especially since it's rather unknown and made in China.
> 
> Everybody seems to have such a bad connotation of products made in China nowadays that I'm glad to see that there are products out there today to show that it simply isn't the case.




So many of our high-end gadgets are made there, that they certainly have the know how. I'm also aware of the huge audiophile craze there and how big their diy market is. Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg would be so proud of them "tuning their own bows." I think there are more serious enthusiasts in China now than there are here in the States. All that being said, I agree with you that there is still some audio snobbery that goes on. I for one am very happy that the love of music and it's excellent reproduction unites us.

I also happen to be a pecunious Scotsman, so if you build a great and affordable mouse trap, I will come.


----------



## Kyno

The Gustard H10 is going to be on sale over Aliexpress on November 11th: http://www.aliexpress.com/premium/GUSTARD-H10.html?ltype=wholesale&SearchText=GUSTARD+H10&d=y&origin=y&initiative_id=SB_20141026140151&isViewCP=y&catId=0
  
 Just 15 % off, but still a decent discount.


----------



## stuartmc

kyno said:


> The Gustard H10 is going to be on sale over Aliexpress on November 11th: http://www.aliexpress.com/premium/GUSTARD-H10.html?ltype=wholesale&SearchText=GUSTARD+H10&d=y&origin=y&initiative_id=SB_20141026140151&isViewCP=y&catId=0
> 
> Just 15 % off, but still a decent discount.


 
  
 Pollychen006 on Ebay is already selling them for less. It was $356 delivered to the States via DHL.  I have nothing but praise for this guy. He was very responsive to my emails and shipped the product promptly with a very reliable shipper. It was also very well packaged for protection. Several of us have used him and so far no issues whatsoever. He should be our Gustard go to guy for sure.
  
 Mine just arrived today.


----------



## No_One411

stuartmc said:


> Pollychen006 on Ebay is already selling them for less. It was $356 delivered to the States via DHL.  I have nothing but praise for this guy. He was very responsive to my emails and shipped the product promptly with a very reliable shipper. It was also very well packaged for protection. Several of us have used him and so far no issues whatsoever. He should be our Gustard go to guy for sure.
> 
> Mine just arrived today.


 
 I had good success buying from Pollychen006 on Ebay as well. Shipping was much faster than I expected, though I am located on the West Coast, so that may have some impact. 
  
 Can't wait to hear your impressions with the amp. I think getting a larger user base will help.


----------



## stuartmc

no_one411 said:


> I had good success buying from Pollychen006 on Ebay as well. Shipping was much faster than I expected, though I am located on the West Coast, so that may have some impact.
> 
> Can't wait to hear your impressions with the amp. I think getting a larger user base will help.




The burn in has begun. First quick listen was not the best, but that was stone cold with no play time....Ha ha, I should know better. The sucker is definitely powerful...no pre-gain and half way on the volume control is as loud as I can take it. What was your break in experience?


----------



## No_One411

stuartmc said:


> The burn in has begun. First quick listen was not the best, but that was stone cold with no play time....Ha ha, I should know better. The sucker is definitely powerful...no pre-gain and half way on the volume control is as loud as I can take it. What was your break in experience?


 
 I know Flysweep said that the amp really bloomed after a long burn-in period. I don't think I've quite reached that point yet, but I will say that the amp was not great nor terrible when I first received it. I've had the unit for a little over a month now, and I think it sounds great with everything I'm throwing at it.
  
 I'll put it this way, out of the box, it did my HD-800s no favors. It was a much better match for my Enigmas and Paradox Slants.


----------



## FlySweep

stuartmc said:


> The burn in has begun. First quick listen was not the best, but that was stone cold with no play time....Ha ha, I should know better. The sucker is definitely powerful...no pre-gain and half way on the volume control is as loud as I can take it. What was your break in experience?


 
  
 My experience was that.. OOTB.. it sounded dynamically compressed.. lack of ample separation and stage depth.. timbre seemed 'washed out' and flat.. signature was on the bright/lean side to my ears too.  Honestly, I wondered what the hell all that circuitry was really doing for some time as I used the H10.  It's also why I was pretty silent about it.. I wanted to give it time.. let my ears adjust.. and based on my experience with other discrete amps I've owned.. I figured it *might* sound better with use.. and it surely did.  IME, it was a good 100 hours before it sounded like a V200 competitor.
  
 It's stupid powerful though, no?  Haha.  I can run most everything (even sensitive IEMs) on +0 pre-gain, as well.. I found +6dB to be excellent with my Paradox Slants.. UERM sounds terrific at -12dB or -6dB.  My HD650 arrives later today.. I've got a nice aftermarket cable I'll be using with it.. I'm excited to hear this combo.. I may be able to get my hands on an HD800 (fairly soon) to audition with the H10, as well.
  
 Good luck.. congrats on the H10 arrival.. I look forward to your continued impressions!


----------



## zilch0md

I'm very interested to learn what you HD800 owners think of the H10.  I managed to get into an email exchange with Gustard, to ask if it uses negative feedback to reduce distortion (as I'm keen on using a low feedback or zero-feedback amp with the HD800.  I'm happy with my $350, low-feedback, single-ended Class A NuForce HA-200, for now - really happy, so I would have to hear absolutely wonderful things about the H10 to get one for the HD800.  
  
 Unfortunately, the fellow at Gustard with whom I had an email exchange, just could not understand my questions regarding negative feedback. He was clueless and I never could get him to escalate my questions to an engineer that understands the concept, even having sent him a link to this excellent article by Nelson Pass, eschewing application of lots of negative feedback for multi-stage amp designs:
  
 Quoting:  https://passlabs.com/articles/audio-distortion-and-feedback 





> We have seen that nonlinear distortion becomes larger and more complex depending on the nonlinear characteristic of the stages, the number of cascaded stages, and the number of spectral elements in the music.
> 
> Negative feedback can reduce the total quantity of distortion, but it adds new components on its own, and tempts the designer to use more cascaded gain stages in search of better numbers, accompanied by greater feedback frequency stability issues.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And this master's thesis by Dan Cheever:
  
 Quoting http://www.dancheever.com/main/cheever_thesis_final.pdf


> 1. Introduction
> 
> In September on 1995, Stereophile, an established highly respected hi-fi magazine, ran a review of the Cary 300SEI, the first mainstream review of a single ended amplifier. In this design, a single output device is tasked with producing both polarities of the signal swing and had zero negative feedback.
> 
> ...


  

 Anyone not familiar with Robert Harley [not "Hartley", as quoted in the Cheever's thesis] should know that he commands a lot of respect in the HiFi community. 
  
 So...  Given that it's impossible to get an answer out of Gustard as to whether or not the H10 uses negative feedback, I'm not going to buy one until somebody I trust raves about its performance with an HD800 - which, in my opinion, is very sensitive to the complex, low-level (i.e. low volume level) distortion caused by multi-stage amps that use a lot of negative feedback, ironically, to control the distortion that's inherent to multi-stage designs.  
  
 My LCD-2 rev.1 don't have enough resolution to hear the edginess of my OPPO HA-1 amp, but the HD800 does.  In his recent review of the OPPO HA-1, despite praising it in every other regard, Skylab writes:
  
  Quoting http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/affordable-and-transparent-oppo-ha-1-headphone-amplifierdac
  


> I wouldn't recommend [the HA-1] to people who are looking for an amp* to solve a "problem" they have with their headphones* (and from what I read on several headphone boards this is a very common thing, sadly).


 
  
 Skylab is talking about the HD800, here!  You don't have to spend much time in the HD800 impressions thread to realize that it's not the HD800 that has a problem.  It's the majority of amps that have a problem which can be revealed by the HD800!  
  
 Here's my HD800 solution, using the $350, low-feedback, single-ended Class A NuForce HA-200:
  


Spoiler: Here's my HD800 solution - using the $350, low-feedback, single-ended Class A NuForce HA-200



*FiiO X5 Coaxial Out > Metrum Octave MkII > HA-200 NuForce > stock Sennheiser cables > HD800*
  







  
 Speaking of Nelson Pass articles and my choice to use a single-ended, low-feedback, Class A design, check this out:
  
 Quoting  https://passlabs.com/articles/single-ended-class-a 





> *Regardless of the type of gain device, in systems where the utmost in natural reproduction is the goal, simple single-ended Class A circuits are the topologies of choice.*


 
  
 Mike


----------



## stuartmc

flysweep said:


> My experience was that.. OOTB.. it sounded dynamically compressed.. lack of ample separation and stage depth.. timbre seemed 'washed out' and flat.. signature was on the bright/lean side to my ears too.  Honestly, I wondered what the hell all that circuitry was really doing for some time as I used the H10.  It's also why I was pretty silent about it.. I wanted to give it time.. let my ears adjust.. and based on my experience with other discrete amps I've owned.. I figured it *might* sound better with use.. and it surely did.  IME, it was a good 100 hours before it sounded like a V200 competitor.
> 
> It's stupid powerful though, no?  Haha.  I can run most everything (even sensitive IEMs) on +0 pre-gain, as well.. I found +6dB to be excellent with my Paradox Slants.. UERM sounds terrific at -12dB or -6dB.  My HD650 arrives later today.. I've got a nice aftermarket cable I'll be using with it.. I'm excited to hear this combo.. I may be able to get my hands on an HD800 (fairly soon) to audition with the H10, as well.
> 
> Good luck.. congrats on the H10 arrival.. I look forward to your continued impressions!


 
 Thanks 'mate. I appreciate your thoughts because notwithstanding all the times I've been through this, I still get a little paranoid during the break in process.  I use the Purist Audio Disc to speed the process and today I switched over to music to see how things were going and it sounded quite edgy and shrill (compared even to the night before).  I forgot that the Purist Disc does that and you have to play music for serveral hours for things to settle down....whew, that really had me in a tizzy. I will be running the HD600 with it and I have a HE-400i coming next week for comparison. I have the Havi B3 Pro to check out how it does with IEMs.


----------



## stuartmc

Hey Mike, nice material there. I've been a Nelson Pass fan ever since they sent me a review pair of the Aleph monoblocks years back. I still have them in my downstairs listening room.

Where the heck did you find an email address for Gustard? I searched high and low and couldn't find jack diddly. I have a local client who speaks fluent Mandarin.... Ha, maybe I could use him as an intermediary.


----------



## stuartmc

The H10 really turned the corner tonight. With about 40 hours in, the sound has dramatically improved...and when I say improved, I mean going from practically wanting to hang myself in the closet with a 2m interconnect to being down right giddy over its presentation. Now to be honest, there may be some breakin effect going on with the Analysis Plus silver oval XLR interconnects I'm running from the Aune S16 to the H10, since I haven't had much time on them, but I'm pretty sure it's mostly the H10. Fresh interconnects just don't sound like this and I'm hearing one of the most dramatic break in transformations I've heard in a very long time.

This is what I call a tubey ss amp. It seems to do those things I like most about great tube amps - space and air around images with a strain free, delicate top end.... and just the right amount of midrange warmth. The stage really opened up tonight and all the fine resolution is coming through now with an effortless ease that is just plain gorgeous. Dynamics are excellent and the background is dead silent, black as black can be. I think my HD600s are really liking the power and damping factor.


----------



## FlySweep

That's great to hear, Stuart.  I didn't want to stress the 'break in' aspect of the H10 too much (despite finding it quite apparent & important with this particular amp).. because anyone who's been at HF long enough knows how those discussions tend to, almost inevitably, spiral out of control/topic.  For the record, I'm not a hardcore subjectivist or hardcore objectivist.  I believe that using both approaches in a harmonious, symbiotic manner yields the most informed and effective perspective.
  
 My beloved HD650 arrived today (This is the second pair I've purchased.  After I sold my first pair of 650's a few months ago.. I bought both the HE-560 & LCD-2F (the H10 was intended to power these, btw).. I was extremely impressed with both planars.. yet, I sold them and went _back_ to the 650.. that's how much I love them!).  Do note, my HD 650 is brand spanking new (as are the aftermarket ADL/Furutech Senn headphone cables).. so make of that what you will in terms of burn-in/conditioning.  I'll cut right to the chase: I find the H10 to be a _superb_ match for the HD 650.  The H10 masterfully amplifies the 650's "quasi-romantic" sound with quiet aplomb.  What do I hear with this combo?  Wonderfully smooth micro- and macro-dynamics.. excellent resolving ability that's astonishingly grainless (unless the recording or upstream gear introduces it).. vivid tonal transparency..and _terrific_ driver control.  Through the H10, the 650 sounds full bodied without sacrificing speed or precision to achieve it.  One other thing I noticed is how clean and well rendered the treble is.  Lots of careful listening revealed a real lack of etch & glare in the mid- & upper-treble frequencies.  In some ways, the 650 sounded almost "planar-like" in that it possessed powerful, yet smooth dynamic qualities, the ability to uncover low level information in an effortless, natural manner, and it displayed a cohesiveness that I found quite admirable.  IME so far, the HD650/H10 combo is an absolute winner.


----------



## Kyno

flysweep said:


> That's great to hear, Stuart.  I didn't want to stress the 'break in' aspect of the H10 too much (despite finding it quite apparent & important with this particular amp).. because anyone who's been at HF long enough knows how those discussions tend to, almost inevitably, spiral out of control/topic.  For the record, I'm not a hardcore subjectivist or hardcore objectivist.  I believe that using both approaches in a harmonious, symbiotic manner yields the most informed and effective perspective.
> 
> My beloved HD650 arrived today (This is the second pair I've purchased.  After I sold my first pair of 650's a few months ago.. I bought both the HE-560 & LCD-2F (the H10 was intended to power these, btw).. I was extremely impressed with both planars.. yet, I sold them and went _back_ to the 650.. that's how much I love them!).  Do note, my HD 650 is brand spanking new (as are the aftermarket ADL/Furutech Senn headphone cables).. so make of that what you will in terms of burn-in/conditioning.  I'll cut right to the chase: I find the H10 to be a _superb_ match for the HD 650.  The H10 masterfully amplifies the 650's "quasi-romantic" sound with quiet aplomb.  What do I hear with this combo?  Wonderfully smooth micro- and macro-dynamics.. excellent resolving ability that's astonishingly grainless (unless the recording or upstream gear introduces it).. vivid tonal transparency..and _terrific_ driver control.  Through the H10, the 650 sounds full bodied without sacrificing speed or precision to achieve it.  One other thing I noticed is how clean and well rendered the treble is.  Lots of careful listening revealed a real lack of etch & glare in the mid- & upper-treble frequencies.  In some ways, the 650 sounded almost "planar-like" in that it possessed powerful, yet smooth dynamic qualities, the ability to uncover low level information in an effortless, natural manner, and it displayed a cohesiveness that I found quite admirable.  IME so far, the HD650/H10 combo is an absolute winner.


 
  
 I'm impressed how you manage to make me love the H10 even though I don't have it yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I still got the HD-650 and will definitely keep it for comparaison with other headphones. Didn't you have/heard it with a Crack before? (someone was mentioning this in page 1) The comparaison would be interesting, albeit audio memory isn't our strongest suit.


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> Hey Mike, nice material there. I've been a Nelson Pass fan ever since they sent me a review pair of the Aleph monoblocks years back. I still have them in my downstairs listening room.
> 
> Where the heck did you find an email address for Gustard? I searched high and low and couldn't find jack diddly. I have a local client who speaks fluent Mandarin.... Ha, maybe I could use him as an intermediary.


 
  
 I started out using the html-based contact page at shenzhenaudio.  When the rep there couldn't answer my question he said he would forward it to their contact at Gustard who started an email exchange with me directly, but asked that I not share his address saying, "we have no people to handle many questions." 
  
 Communication between me and the guy at Gustard isn't the problem. His written English is really pretty good. The problem is that he is some kind of front-office guy, not an EE, and I suspect when he translates words like "negative feedback" into Mandarin or Cantonese or whatever to the amp's designer, something gets very lost in the translation. I've not had a reply since I sent the links to the articles with which I am trying to educate him. There's always the possibility they understand the question perfectly, but just don't want to disappoint me with the news that it's a multi-stage design using massive amounts of negative feedback!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 In the end, it doesn't matter. As usual in this industry, I'm going to have to buy the device to hear it (with my DAC, my headphones, my ears, my tastes) and hearing it is going to tell me all I really need to know.
  
  
 My problem is that I after 10 months of asking myself why I shouldn't just sell the HD800 for lack of an affordable way to provide it with a signal that wasn't edgy and fatiguing, without losing any resolution or transparency, I've hit on the Metrum Octave MkII > NuForce HA-200 combination, which is so thoroughly satisfying for the HD800, I really have very little incentive to experiment with another amp - especially one that is most likely using a lot of negative feedback - which can sound great with nearly every headphone except the HD800 (as hinted by Skylab in his review of the very transparent and detailed OPPO HA-1).
  
 That's the thing with the HD800, it's head-and-shoulders more resolving than anything except perhaps for Stax gear, digging down into those low level signals where the "complex distortion" (as described by Nelson Pass) that's created by use of negative feedback in multi-stage designs can absolutely destroy the natural, open ambiance that I'm hearing currently - again, after 10 months of trying to get there.  Really, it's that wealth of low-level, micro-detailed information that resides just above a low-noise, transparent blackness, that can enhance your perception of space and imaging, and define the natural timbre of voices and instruments.  Though not due to negative feedback, I find the Schiit Vali to be especially good at destroying the timbre that distinguishes one voice from another or one brass instrument from another. People who recommend the Schiit Vali for use with the HD800 are just happy as can be to smother the excruciating resolution of the HD800 with a veil that, to my ears, makes everything have a similar timbre. It reminds me of my mother-in-law's preserves - blackberry,raspberry, strawberry - the way she makes them, they all taste the same!   And frankly, having had both the HD600 and the HD650, in my opinion, neither of them are, in themselves, sufficiently transparent to judge the transparency of upstream equipment.  Which can be a good thing, believe me!
  
 OK, enough of rambling about the impact of negative feedback.  
  
 Mike


----------



## stuartmc

flysweep said:


> That's great to hear, Stuart.  I didn't want to stress the 'break in' aspect of the H10 too much (despite finding it quite apparent & important with this particular amp).. because anyone who's been at HF long enough knows how those discussions tend to, almost inevitably, spiral out of control/topic.  For the record, I'm not a hardcore subjectivist or hardcore objectivist.  I believe that using both approaches in a harmonious, symbiotic manner yields the most informed and effective




I'm coming from the same place. Some components just don't exhibit much of the break in effect, others do. This happens to be one that does in a rather significant way. I'm still somewhat skeptical of those that claim a component needs 150+ hours to sound it's best. In my experience (with everything except devices with a mechanical aspect, like loudspeakers) the vast majority of change occurs in the 20 to 50 hour range and anything after that is probably more wishful thinking and perspective adjustment.

The planar-like sound has got to be the vice grip control the ultra low output impedance H10 has on the Senn's drivers...not to mention the rather huge voltage swings and current this thing is capable of. I'm hearing it too. Words like "fast," "precise" and expressions like "stop on a dime," come to mind. All manor of distortions are reduced when that little diaphragm starts and stops the way it is supposed to. If the H10 can do this with the Senn, I can only imagine what it can do with a true planar dynamic. Ha ha, I won't have to imagine for long - the Hifimans are on their way.


----------



## stuartmc

zilch0md said:


> That's the thing with the HD800, it's head-and-shoulders more resolving than anything except perhaps for Stax gear, digging down into those low level signals where the "complex distortion" (as described by Nelson Pass) that's created by use of negative feedback in multi-stage designs can absolutely destroy the natural, open ambiance that I'm hearing currently - again, after 10 months of trying to get there.  Really, it's that wealth of low-level, micro-detailed information that resides just above a low-noise, transparent blackness, that can enhance your perception of space and imaging, and define the natural timbre of voices and instruments.  Though not due to negative feedback, I find the Schiit Vali to be especially good at destroying the timbre that distinguishes one voice from another or one brass instrument from another. People who recommend the Schiit Vali for use with the HD800 are just happy as can be to smother the excruciating resolution of the HD800 with a veil that, to my ears, makes everything have a similar timbre. It reminds me of my mother-in-law's preserves - blackberry,raspberry, strawberry - the way she makes them, they all taste the same!   And frankly, having had both the HD600 and the HD650, in my opinion, neither of them are, in themselves, sufficiently transparent to judge the transparency of upstream equipment.  Which can be a good thing, believe me!
> 
> OK, enough of rambling about the impact of negative feedback.
> 
> Mike


 
  
 Sounds like you have been on a quest brother.  I too had a quest years ago (about 20 actually). I was in search of my personal Holy Grail of Tube amps. I embarked on a two year mission and well over twenty (yes, 20 --ridiculous!) amps passed through my listening room and I tried my best to comment on them in a series of articles I wrote for Positive Feedback magazine. For lack of a better name, I called it "Tube Fest", then "Son of Tube Fest" and then I think it was "Beneath the Planet of the Son of Tube Fest"..ha ha, you get the point, I was having fun and the quest was very personal. One of the most interesting amps I experienced was the Manley SE/PP 300B. I called this one the "lab experiment" because for the first time you could throw a switch on the same amp and hear the difference between Single Ended and Push-Pull operation.  The other slick lab experiment (and I know you are going to love this Mike) was a rotating knob that let you dial in negative feedback from 0 to 10db in 1 db steps.  This was an incredible eye, or should I say, ear, opener.  The differences in the sound were extraordinary and I had no idea how deletrious negative feedback would be. I found the draw backs of negative feedback to be several orders of magnitude greater than the SE/PP difference. As I dialed in more feedback, the soundstage depth decreased, like the doors closing on Mystery Science Theater 2000, the micro-dynamics got progressively sucked dry and the midrange bloom became a blip.  I also found feedback to be an equal opportunity spoiler – the effect was more dramatic when operating in SE, but it still ruined my day when in PP mode.    
  
 By the way, I entirely agree with you that the real magic is found in the very low level information that rides very close to the noise floor. I used the "draining lake" analogy when writing about a wonderful amplifier that I actually described as my "Holy Grail" at the end of the "Tube Fest" pilgrimage. It was the Blue Circle BC-2 hybrid monoblocks that conjured up this lake analogy. What I said in that review was this:
  
*"During my listening sessions, it was a common experience for me to detect a new sound and have to back track to confirm that it wasn't my imagination. It was as if I were sitting on a hill gazing out over a familiar lake, when slowly the water was drained and mysterious rocks, stumps and branches began to poke up through the placid surface. It was all very natural without surreal, in-your-face detail."*

 Ultra low distortion lets some pretty amazing stuff poke its head up out of the noise floor. But it’s not just the discreet little sonic events that are so captivating — it’s the generalized, pervasive sense of the acoustic space that really gets me. An almost continuous flow of subtle cues tells you about the size of the hall they’re playing in, who’s closer to the rear wall and sidewalls and what the relative humidity is. Just kidding about the latter, but you get my point — much of what I sense as "live" resides in and around the noise/distortion floor. The more you lower that floor, the more "live mojo" comes through.

 I'm an old dog when it comes to the ultra high-end big rigs, but I'm almost virginal when it comes to the headphone scene, so you all need to be kind as my cherry is being popped, lol.  I do know enough to agree with you that the HD600's are not the ultimate resolving tool with which to ultimately judge and/or critique the upstream components transparency.  That being said, the fact that I CAN clearly hear these laudible characteristics of the H10, tells me that they must not be very subtle.  This H10 is at an "everyman" price and sounds fantastic with  quality "everyman" cans.  I obviously have no opinion on how it performs with the likes of the HD800 or LCD-3, but from what FlySweep has to say, I surmise that it scales up very nicely.

 Regards,
 Stu


----------



## FlySweep

stuartmc said:


> I'm coming from the same place. Some components just don't exhibit much of the break in effect, others do. This happens to be one that does in a rather significant way. I'm still somewhat skeptical of those that claim a component needs 150+ hours to sound it's best. In my experience (with everything except devices with a mechanical aspect, like loudspeakers) the vast majority of change occurs in the 20 to 50 hour range and anything after that is probably more wishful thinking and perspective adjustment.
> 
> The planar-like sound has got to be the vice grip control the ultra low output impedance H10 has on the Senn's drivers...not to mention the rather huge voltage swings and current this thing is capable of. I'm hearing it too. Words like "fast," "precise" and expressions like "stop on a dime," come to mind. All manor of distortions are reduced when that little diaphragm starts and stops the way it is supposed to. If the H10 can do this with the Senn, I can only imagine what it can do with a true planar dynamic. Ha ha, I won't have to imagine for long - the Hifimans are on their way.


 
  
 I haven't heard the 400i.. but as far as the 560 is concerned, it sounded absolutely _wonderful_ with the H10 (as did the LCD-2F).  Both those planars appreciated the copious amounts of clean current the H10 was practically begging to pump out.  As I understand it, the 400i is surprisingly efficient in terms of being able to reach ear splitting volumes from low power devices (i.e. portable DAPs, etc.).. but I bet you'd hear a welcome improvement in soundstage, driver control, resolving ability, and instrument separation with the H10.  If my experience with the H10/560 was any indication, you're in for a treat when the 400i arrives.
  
 The only solid state amps that interest me at this point are the Schiit Ragnarok (but I don't see myself shelling out $1700 on a headphone amp anytime soon.. if ever).. and the Nuforce HA-200 (which Mike's paired with the HD800.. and raved about).  I do have a loaded Geek Pulse coming at sometime in the near future.  I backed it very early (last year).. long before finding the H10.  It'll be fun to see how it compares to the H10.. it'll most likely take on DAC duties.. and if its HP output is better than the H10, I'll consider it icing on the cake.  Aside from all that, the H10 simply off all the boxes for me.  I'd like to compare it to the Schiit Mjolnir if I ever get a chance, too.


----------



## stuartmc

A big thanks to you Flysweep, Jeff, Mike, kyno... I wouldn't have discovered and purchased the H10 without you guys!

Last night's listening session was even better than the night before. I am more than satisfied with the H10's performance and I am convinced that it will be the right tool for further headphone explorations. The best $350 I ever spent on an amp!


----------



## FlySweep

kyno said:


> I'm impressed how you manage to make me love the H10 even though I don't have it yet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Haha.. well, I hope you love it even more when it arrives.  Regarding the Crack.. yes, I had a custom built Crack (w/ speedball and various other components that were upgraded (pot, output & PS bypass caps, etc.).  I had it for over a year with my (first) HD650.. but old it near the beginning  of this year.. so it's been quite some time since I've heard it.. but it was absolutely gorgeous sounding w/ the 650.  I can tell you the H10 and my Crack certainly shared some general qualities (i.e. warmth).. but.. and I'm going purely off memory here.. the H10 is more resolving, faster, cleaner, and more transparent than my Crack.  The Crack is a terrific OTL.. I'd say its hallmark qualities is a very hypnotic soundstage and excellent dynamics.. but it does many many others things very well.. it isn't the most resolving amp, though.  I realized something funny and ironic while (just now) reflecting on my tube rolling adventures with the Crack.. the tube/sound I was after is precisely what I'm hearing with the H10... haha.
  


> Originally Posted by *stuartmc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I absolutely love the "lake draining" analogy, Stu.  That's precisely how I'd describe resolution that's "done right."  The HD800 fits into this whole deal in a unique way: it's pretty merciless.  So, careful matching of upstream components is necessary to preserve that terrific precision, but present it in the most natural way possible.. and I think this is the rabbit hole I never quite committed to go down.  I may have to give it another shot (buy the HD800 again) cause it seems there's some pretty affordable options out there now.  When I had the HD800 (about a year ago), the Schiit Vali, Valhalla 2 weren't around.. I didn't know about the H10 (still don't know how it'll pair with the HD800, though).. and I hadn't heard about the HA-200).
  
 Mike's sent me a lot of great reading on negative feedback (much of which I'm still making my way through).  One amp that I owned in the past, the Objective2, (I believe) used a lot of negative feedback to achieve some of its design goals (chiefly, to create a transparent amp that relied exclusively on measured performance).. and while the amp did sound decent (good not great), there was something about the treble that never sat quite right with me.. I sensed grain and a lack of focus in that region.. I wonder if that's a consequence of negative feedback or something else?
  


stuartmc said:


> A big thanks to you Flysweep, Jeff, Mike, kyno... I wouldn't have discovered and purchased the H10 without you guys!
> 
> Last night's listening session was even better than the night before. I am more than satisfied with the H10's performance and I am convinced that it will be the right tool for further headphone explorations. The best $350 I ever spent on an amp!


 
  
 Great to hear, Stu.  Thanks for taking a chance on it.. I'm very happy (and relieved!) it's worked out for you, so far.  I'm in love with how clean and composed the H10 sounds.  It's really well suited for lengthy listening sessions.. and frankly, that's a bit of a feat (to my ears) b/c a lot of solid state amps I've heard with the HD650 made it sound _boring_ over lengthy listening sessions.  I don't have to worry about that with the H10.  One other thing I've noticed.. the H10 can be pretty jaw dropping when fed high quality/well recorded music.  For how well it gets on with less-than-ideally recorded material, it's more than capable of stepping up to the plate and rocking one out of the park when it's given a chance to show the finesse it has to go along with it's muscle.


----------



## bala

I am 650/Crack fan and Flysweep's statements are definitely high praise for the H10. The Project Ember and Project Polaris had picked my interests but the H10 seems like  a better choice! My suffering wallet would also be more than delighted to get out of the tube rolling madness


----------



## zilch0md

Hey Stuart!
  
 I love the way you write!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
   These must have been really fun to play with...
  


> One of the most interesting amps I experienced was the Manley SE/PP 300B. I called this one the "lab experiment" because for the first time you could throw a switch on the same amp and hear the difference between Single Ended and Push-Pull operation.  The other slick lab experiment (and I know you are going to love this Mike) was a rotating knob that let you dial in negative feedback from 0 to 10db in 1 db steps.  This was an incredible eye, or should I say, ear, opener.  The differences in the sound were extraordinary and I had no idea how deletrious negative feedback would be. I found the draw backs of negative feedback to be several orders of magnitude greater than the SE/PP difference. As I dialed in more feedback, the soundstage depth decreased, like the doors closing on Mystery Science Theater 2000, the micro-dynamics got progressively sucked dry and the midrange bloom became a blip.  I also found feedback to be an equal opportunity spoiler – the effect was more dramatic when operating in SE, but it still ruined my day when in PP mode.


 
  
 In the interest of being open-minded, fair, and balanced, etc., there's an article out there somewhere, that someone quoted not long ago - I can't find it at the moment - where the author makes a very compelling case for applying 80 or 100dB of negative feedback instead of the usual 20 or 30dB to multi-stage amps.  I can't recall the technical aspects, but he argues that this pushes multi-stage distortion down so far below your peak levels that you can't possibly hear the artifacts created down there through use of negative feedback.  The moral of the story seems to be:  Use no feedback...  or use a ton of feedback...
  




  
 Mike


----------



## lukeap69

Ordered one from Aliexpress, do they clone a clone?


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> Ordered one from Aliexpress, do they clone a clone?


 
 Ha ha...anything is possible, but I doubt anyone would bother to copy the H10.  Nice to see you over here Lukeap69. I'm using my Hidizs AP100 as a transport into the new Aune S16 and running it in dac mode balanced into the H10. The sound quality of this amp is just amazing for me and I hope you have a similarly great experience with it.  The  gain dip switches allow me to tailor the output to match everything I currently have for listening. That would be the Havi B3 Pro iem, the Sennheiser HD600 and as of yesterday, the Hifiman He-400i. If you have been following along with this thread, you already know that break in is critical with the H10, so don't shoot yourself over the buying decision until you have at least 30 to 50 hours in. Then hold onto your hat, because this rascal opens up and blooms like a spring flower - quite extraordinary for a solid state as compared to a great hollow state. Be sure to report back to us with your listening impressions.
  
 The He-400i i got yesterday already had over 100 hours on it, so I was able to do some critical listening right away.  FlySweep you were so right - I'm getting a real treat with the H10 paired with a planar magnetic.  The H10 controls the panel like nobody's business.  I know this to be true because the distortion level is way down and its the draining lake analogy times two.  As compared to the HD600, there are improvements across the board, but the most noticeable is the clarity of low level detail. It's like a slight haze or veil has been lifted. This clarity is not frequency dependent either. Sometimes a hyped treble response can initially fool me into thinking that I am getting higher resolution....nope, not the case here.  The bass lines are better defined, no overhang, so less bloated and the midrange has more immediacy and palpable presence. Perhaps a slightly warmer sound than the HD600 (in the midrange) with just a little more sparkle and air up top.  The soundstage is just slightly narrower than on the HD600, no correct that, it's not really narrower, its just that everything is brought a little closer and that change made me intially think it was narrower. When I critically listened for width cues, it was all there with 400i. Depth of field is clearly better portrayed by the 400i. I can distinguish layers going all the way back that just elude me when I listen with the HD600.  With my current setup and paired with the H10, there is no doubt in my mind that the 400i is the better can.  Clarity, tonal balance and soundstaging are all superior.  As Mike has suggested, this can has the kind of resolution that helps me hear more of what is happening with the upstream components.


----------



## lukeap69

Thanks Stuart. I'm sure I will enjoy the H10. I am planning to use mainly with iMac>Audio-gd NFB-1>H10. I will also connect AP100, X5 or Theorem 720. I've read about the burn-in period and have no problem with it. I will also compare it to my Lyr2, the hybrid tube amp which sounds like an SS amp. Funny that it seems H10 is an SS amp that sounds like a tube amp.


----------



## sydneyaudio

Have had this amp for a little while now. Amazing value for money, sounds fantastic with both my HD800 and LCD2. Love the large volume control.


----------



## stuartmc

sydneyaudio said:


> Have had this amp for a little while now. Amazing value for money, sounds fantastic with both my HD800 and LCD2. Love the large volume control.





Greetings Sidney. Glad to have you join our little club. I suspect that the better the cans, the better this amp sounds.


----------



## zilch0md

sydneyaudio said:


> Have had this amp for a little while now. Amazing value for money, sounds fantastic with both my HD800 and LCD2. Love the large volume control.




Hi! 

How long is "a little while?"

Which DAC are you using?

Is your HD800 modded?

Do you find you can listen to the HD800 for long periods as easily as you can the LCD-2, without fatigue?

Thanks!

Mike


----------



## Kyno

I received mine!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 First off, I'd like to thank *pollychen0306 *(http://www.ebay.fr/itm/261520921654?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649).
  
 I was a bit hesitant to buy from abroad, but people here made me took the leap of faith with this shop and I really don't regret it. Great communication. Great packaging, very secure. Good product. Buying from them is a no-brainer. 
 I'm also confident there won't be any issue with the 1 year warranty if I must ever use it.
  
 I have an O2 and a Garage 1217 Polaris to compare it with. All of them running through an ODAC (O2/ODAC Epiphany combo in a single unit, so I'm using one more cable, 2xRCA to 3,5 jack, when listening to another amp than the O2), and an AMB Labs Gamma2 soon. 
  
 All of that with an HD-650. Beyerdymanic T1 coming in next week.
  
 Please note it has only been playing for about 10h so it's still in burn-in process. If I trust the few comments here, it hasn't really bloomed yet.
  
 Funny thing is that it may have changed a little already.
 When I first received it, I was in complete agreement with a comment made here, it felt a bit like a Super-O2, a more "powerful" sound, whereas the Polaris sounded softer/smoother than both O2 and Gustard H10, but with less clarity/details. Granted I only compared them 1 minute on 2 tracks, didn't have much time then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It now sounds closer to the Polaris when it comes to smoothness, the O2 being rougher on the edges. I also hear a veil compared to the O2 (more bloated), bringing a worse instruments separation. I can definitely say that vocals and instruments currently sounds more true to life on the O2 because of this.
 Right now, I'd say I'd like for the H10 to "open-up". In Cosmo Canyon from FFVII, the high note (flute) going on for almost all the track sounds nice with the O2, a bit bloated with the Polaris, kind of in a box with the H10.
 It's almost like you can hear a great potential, covered with a blanket.
  
 The O2, however, is missing resolution/quality in comparison. I'd say it has more grain, although I'm not sure if it's the right term 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In any case, I have a harder time listening to the O2 at low volume, I always feel to push the sound to a certain volume for it to sound decent. H10 or Polaris are fine in this regard.
  
 Again, keep it mind it's not burn-in yet. I'll probably let in run for the next few days until my T1 arrives so that it quickly reaches 100 hours, but I felt it was a good thing to write preliminary impressions.
  
 I'm also listening with an HD-650, which already sounds a bit too veiled/bloated (maybe even too dark/warm) to my ears, so anything taking it further in this direction wouldn't be the best thing as far as it concerns me (hence my wish to try the T1 with a good amp, and eventually the new HiFiman's & HD-800).
 I probably would have been very happy with something to calm down my super bright/sibilant T90 when I tried it a while ago


----------



## lukeap69

Thanks Kyno. Looking forward to your further impression after burn in and also with the T1. It seems your early impression is consistent with others.


----------



## lukeap69

Has anybody tried this amp with AKG Q701?


----------



## bala

Thanks kyno for your initial impressions/comparison with the O2 & Polaris - looking forward to a more detailed post after burnin and whenever you find time. The HD650/O2 pairing never suited my tastes, though both of them are excellent with other pairing.


----------



## pekingduck

What's the output impedance of this amp?


----------



## FlySweep

pekingduck said:


> What's the output impedance of this amp?


 
  
 The specs (listed on the first post in this thread) indicates a damping factor of greater than 400x at 50 ohms.. so at least 0.125 ohms.


----------



## stuartmc

Good stuff Kyno. I'm looking forward to hearing more about the comparisons as the H10 gets it's bloom on. Your experience may not be the same as mine, but it went from marginal to being decent, passable to holy smokes in the span of about 50 hours. I was using the Purist Audio system enhancement disc, so I may have sped up the process.


----------



## pekingduck

flysweep said:


> The specs (listed on the first post in this thread) indicates a damping factor of greater than 400x at 50 ohms.. so at least 0.125 ohms.


 
 Thanks! I did look at the specs but didn't know how to interpret that.


----------



## swannie007

I came across this amp a while ago on eBay and was quite curious, as a result I put it on my watch list to see if I could find more info about it on the internet. Well, today I found this thread and, long story short, my wife bought me an Xmas present today. I got it from the vendor on eBay that most here seem to use. So, hopefully in a few short weeks I will be able to partake of the fine audio nectar described here by others. Curious to see how it will stack up against my Cayin HA-1A(all tube) and Shanling PH300(hybrid) as well as the little Cayin HA-2i(SS) (which, for about $170.00 is a great buy!). Can't wait. Thanks to all who have posted impressions of this amp. Cheers.


----------



## stuartmc

Hi swannie. Welcome to our H10 clan. The rules of membership are simple - just share with us your experiences and how the H10 gets along with your associated gear. I would particularly enjoy a compare and contrast with your cayin amps.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Hi swannie. Welcome to our H10 clan. The rules of membership are simple - just share with us your experiences and how the H10 gets along with your associated gear. I would particularly enjoy a compare and contrast with your cayin amps.


 

 Hi Stuart,
 Greetings from "Down Under". Thanks for the welcome. Once I have received the H10 and done a burn-in of about 50 to 60 hours or so, I will do some back to back comparisons and post my impressions. Don't expect professional reviewer quality impressions as I am just a regular guy who enjoys good sound and I am not completely familiar with some of the terms employed in some of the more professional reviews but I will relay how they compare, to my ears. Now I know that some well meaning souls out there may see this as an opportunity to educate an idiot in the fine art of "audiophile wordsmithery" but please don't bother. To me, audio is like wine, I know what I like and I just enjoy it without getting all caught up in the art of description and so forth(What is "barn yard" anyway?). That being said, I will attempt to relay my thoughts on the matter without too much hype and confusion. Hope this doesn't offend anyone as it is not my intent, if it does, get a life, this is an open public forum and we are all entitled to our opinion and that is mine!  Cheers.


----------



## stuartmc

No worries 'mate. I enjoy and respect every enthusiast's opinion and I get the impression that's true for 99% of the folks here at head-fi. You are the world authority on what sounds good to you and that's unassailable. Now, if you can throw in a couple of quaint Aussie Crocodile Dundee-isms, you will totally rule in my book! Lol


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> No worries 'mate. I enjoy and respect every enthusiast's opinion and I get the impression that's true for 99% of the folks here at head-fi. You are the world authority on what sounds good to you and that's unassailable. Now, if you can throw in a couple of quaint Aussie Crocodile Dundee-isms, you will totally rule in my book! Lol


 

 Sorry to disappoint mate but I am actually more of a "Yank" than anything else as I lived there for 26 years and have been here for 7 years with the first 26 years in Africa. So, I guess I am a "multi-national" breed. However, I will apply the the Dundee-isms where applicable. Gotta go now and put the billy on for a cuppa. Cheers.


----------



## jaywillin

swannie007 said:


> Sorry to disappoint mate but I am actually more of a "Yank" than anything else as I lived there for 26 years and have been here for 7 years with the first 26 years in Africa. So, I guess I am a "multi-national" breed. However, I will apply the the Dundee-isms where applicable. Gotta go now and_* put the billy on for a cuppa.*_ Cheers.


 
 good one !, and "putting the billy on for a cuppa" would be ??? i guessing coffee, or tea ?  but i'm from georgia living in alabama, so i might be waaaaaay off lol,   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 by the way, i've been just observing here, i to have the h10 on my watch list, as soon as i get some other gear related matters settled, i may give it a whirl


----------



## swannie007

jaywillin said:


> good one !, and "putting the billy on for a cuppa" would be ??? i guessing coffee, or tea ?  but i'm from georgia living in alabama, so i might be waaaaaay off lol,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yep. Putting the kettle on for a cup of tea. Hope you are able to get your H10 soon and join the club. Doesn't Bamma have a fine selection of BBQ joints? If so, I am mighty jealous as I have yet to have good BBQ here in Oz in all the time I've lived here. They just don't know good BBQ from a hole in the ground! Cheers.


----------



## Kyno

I just noticed something interesting.

 I'm running the following system : PC > USB cable > ODAC/O2 combo (single unit) > Jack 3.5mm to 2xRCA > Gustard H10 > HD-650.
  
 The O2 changes whether the H10 in connected to it or not. I guess it makes sense as it serves as a pre-amp in this case, right?
  
 Funny how the O2 becomes greatly more precise and nice with the H10 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It does show its limits, but still, transparency at its finest actually compared to the H10 alone. No match for the piano.
  
 35h to 40h in with the H10, still quite a bit compressed.


----------



## zilch0md

kyno said:


> I just noticed something interesting.
> 
> I'm running the following system : PC > USB cable > ODAC/O2 combo (single unit) > Jack 3.5mm to 2xRCA > Gustard H10 > HD-650.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Are you double-amping - using both the O2 amp and the H10, in series?  
  
 Or are you taking a Line Out from the ODAC to the H10, bypassing the O2 amp?
  
 Mike


----------



## zilch0md

sydneyaudio said:


> Have had this amp for a little while now. Amazing value for money, sounds fantastic with both my HD800 and LCD2. Love the large volume control.


 
  
  


zilch0md said:


> Hi!
> 
> How long is "a little while?"
> 
> ...


 
  
 sydneyaudio hasn't been online at Head-Fi for three and a half days - since making that post. It seems a lot longer than that to me, however. I keep checking in hopes of getting a response.


----------



## Kyno

zilch0md said:


> Are you double-amping - using both the O2 amp and the H10, in series?
> 
> Or are you taking a Line Out from the ODAC to the H10, bypassing the O2 amp?
> 
> Mike


 
  
 Guess I'm double-amping the O2 in this case, quite a difference if I disconnect the Gustard or power it off, but it doesn't happen the other way around (no difference on the Gustard whatsoever if the O2 is powered on or not) so I suppose the ODAC is working alone.
  
 I'll also be receiving an AMB Labs Gamma 2 in a few days 
  
 By the way, I proceeded to a "cold" listening getting up this morning.
  
 Gustard H10 : WAAA, impressive, so "full" ! 
 Polaris : Nice ! (especially on vocals, where the Gustard H10 may not shine as much (yet?)) But less rich and always feels like it's missing something regardless of how the jumpers are set up. Also feels like there is a tiny bit of grain in comparison. 
 O2 : A bit more transparent but so dry and thin. And that's only for the treble, the rest doesn't compare.
  
 50h in, but already enjoying it


----------



## Joong

Hi,
 I have got one, and listening to it connected to Conductor that lacks in powder to drive He-6s.
 Now Gustard H10 has enough power to drive the inefficient phones.
  
 From out of the box, it sounded wonderful, better than all that I have got: Marantz PM6005, TP60, and Burson Conductor itself.
 He-6 thread should know this wonderful amp, while they are talking about several K$ amping with lots of R&D. 
 It's amazing that I could hardly turn the volume knob more than 3 o'clock.
 The sound is clean, fuller, and good separation of instruments without being grainy.


----------



## No_One411

joong said:


> Hi,
> I have got one, and listening to it connected to Conductor that lacks in powder to drive He-6s.
> Now Gustard H10 has enough power to drive the inefficient phones.
> 
> ...


 
 Which pre-gain setting are you using for the HE-6?
  
 I find that 0 is usually enough for most headphones. I switch to +6 for Paradox Slants and -6 for my UERMs. 
  
 Haven't heard anything that needs the +12 setting, but that may be necessary for something like the HE-6s. 
  
 It does have plenty of power though. I don't turn the knob past 12 like...ever.


----------



## Joong

+12 gives good enough power I think.
 At +12 the amp generates noticeably more power than Conductor, which demands me the maximum level setting.
 Very impressive!
 It seems a Conductor with additional power.
  
 Actually I bought it as preamp for my Rotel amplifier, and tried to drive He-6.
 I need another one for Rotel.
 Gustard engineers should consider RCA pass-through for preamplifier application.


----------



## Lorspeaker

what going on here... i was researching on a killer dac, and stumbled onto this drained out Lake.. 
 Does this same company have a killer dac to match?


----------



## jaywillin

lorspeaker said:


> what going on here... i was researching on a killer dac, and stumbled onto this drained out Lake..
> Does this same company have a killer dac to match?


 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X9-Balance-decoder-Dual-WM8741-XMOS-USB-support-DSD-384K-32BIT-/251550061870?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item3a918d552e
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X9-Balance-decoder-Dual-WM8741-XMOS-USB-support-DSD-384K-32BIT-/251550061870?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item3a918d552e
  
 the second one looks an awful lot like a wyred4sound dac
  
 not sure they are killer or not


----------



## Joong

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gustard-ES9018-DAC-x10-DAC-Decoder-Xmos-USB-Support-DSD-XLR-Balanced-Output-AQ-/121481755592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c48e07bc8
  
 Is it a killer?
 I am curious about this one.


----------



## stuartmc

I have no idea how the dac sounds, but given the stellar performance of the H10, I think it is safe to say that the designers who are behind Gustard know what they're doing. They don't reinvent the wheel - they take proven designs and build on them with their own mojo.


----------



## FlySweep

I'd be very interested to hear the X10 cause I wonder how they'd implement the 9018.. it's a great chip in terms of resolving ability.. but in most all the implementations I've heard, it's always exhibited a certain glare (commonly referred to as the "Sabre glare").. considering how well engineered the H10 is, I'd bet their 9018 implementation would be something worth taking a gamble on.  I was close to ordering the X9, though.. I like the WM8741 chip.. and I think in Gustard's hands, they could tweak it to sounds pretty damn NOS-like w/o coming across as a "wannabe."
  
 I'm listening to Brian Simpson's, "It's All Good" LP (streaming in hi res via my Tidal subscription) w/ the H10 & HD650.. hot damn, it sounds great.  The smooth, natural, effortless quality of the dynamics is something I've come to relish with this amp.


----------



## zilch0md

jaywillin said:


> [snip]
> 
> *the second one looks an awful lot like a wyred4sound dac*
> 
> [snip]


 
  
 Yes!  That's the first thing that came to my mind.  
  
 It's a shame, because it suggests they are chasing something, rather than standing on their own merits - which could very well be substantial, given the reputation their amp is developing.


----------



## zilch0md

flysweep said:


> I'd be very interested to hear the X10 cause I wonder how they'd implement the 9018.. it's a great chip in terms of resolving ability.. but in most all the implementations I've heard, it's always exhibited a certain glare (commonly referred to as the "Sabre glare").. considering how well engineered the H10 is, I'd bet their 9018 implementation would be something worth taking a gamble on.  I was close to ordering the X9, though.. I like the WM8741 chip.. and I think in Gustard's hands, they could tweak it to sounds pretty damn NOS-like w/o coming across as a "wannabe."
> 
> I'm listening to Brian Simpson's, "It's All Good" LP (streaming in hi res via my Tidal subscription) w/ the H10 & HD650.. hot damn, it sounds great.  The smooth, natural, effortless quality of the dynamics is something I've come to relish with this amp.


 
  
 I'm with you on the ESS9023 and ESS9018 "glare."  I don't mind using the Sabre DACs with the shelved highs of my LCD-2, as with the OPPO HA-1, but I can't stand Sabre treble with the HD800, for example. I too, prefer the Wolfson sound among all of the oversampling DACs.  I've come to prefer the Metrum Octave MkII (NOS DAC) with both my LCD-2 and HD800.  I had bought it to satisfy the HD800, but ended up liking what it did for the LCD-2, also.
  
 I'm still waiting for someone experienced with an HD800 to chime in on the Gustard H10.  Sydneyaudio didn't know it, but he dropped a grenade in my lap eight days ago, posting that he likes the H10 with both his LCD-2 and HD800, but I just checked (again) and he hasn't been online since.  In fact, he has only made four posts in the past year, five in the past two years, thirteen in the past three years, having been a member since 2006. I guess he has "a life" outside of Head-Fi - no harm no foul there...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  But I'm bummed that he hasn't returned since posting to this thread.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






sydneyaudio said:


> Have had this amp for a little while now. Amazing value for money, sounds fantastic with both my HD800 and LCD2. Love the large volume control.


 
  
  


zilch0md said:


> Hi!
> 
> How long is "a little while?"
> 
> ...


 
  


  
 Mike


----------



## 4Real

There are owners of the DAC X10 on here
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/668857/dac-x10-worthy-budget-32-384-es9018-rig


----------



## sydneyaudio

Wow, didnt think anyone would be hanging out for me to post!
 Yes, I am not on here very often these days - no time.
  
 Anyway I am using the H10 with a Audio GD ref 7 and some aftermarket cables.
 It sounds great with the LCD2 and HD800 - gives me as much pleasure as my previous Stax 02Mk1 and SRM323s. That system has been my reference point for a while.
 I now have and LCD-XC to play with as well.
 Its a very capable amp, as with all things it depends on your own listening tastes and how much you want to spend. I am sure some of the more expensive amps will sound better, but is it worth it?


----------



## zilch0md

sydneyaudio said:


> Wow, didnt think anyone would be hanging out for me to post!
> Yes, I am not on here very often these days - no time.
> 
> Anyway I am using the H10 with a Audio GD ref 7 and some aftermarket cables.
> ...




Wait! Come back! The bolded questions are still unanswered! 




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by zilch0md
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks!

Mike


----------



## lukeap69

Yeah, don't go yet. 

I have both HD800 and H10 on the way. Can you provide more info about the pairing?


----------



## zilch0md

lukeap69 said:


> Yeah, don't go yet.
> 
> I have both HD800 and H10 on the way. Can you provide more info about the pairing?


 
  
 Hi lukeap69,
  
 Which DAC will you be using with the H10 > HD800?
  
 Thanks,
  
 Mike


----------



## lukeap69

zilch0md said:


> Hi lukeap69,
> 
> Which DAC will you be using with the H10 > HD800?
> 
> ...




Hi Mike

I will be using Audio-gd NFB-1 2015 mostly. I will also try Theorem 720.


----------



## lukeap69

I received my H10 today. I have an issue with the headphone plug. If I insert it fully, only the right side transmit sound, none on the left. But if I pull the plug by around 8 to 10 mm, I can hear the sound from both sides. Is this a fault? Do you need to insert your headphones plug fully on your unit?


----------



## stuartmc

That sounds like a flaw in the plug. I'm using the he-400i Jack and I insert it all the way in. Same with my Senn hd600 Jack. This is undoubtedly a mechanical/pressure connection problem inside the plug. They are usually easy fixes if you can get inside to have a look.


----------



## lukeap69

Thanks Stuart. I think you are right. I've tried both AKG Q701 and Oppo PM-2 and the result is the same. I am pretty handy but I thought I will ask first if this is a defect or a 'feature' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I will wait for the seller's response first before I open the unit. Initial impression, congested, compressed, terrible high, nice bass (surprise surprise), and narrow soundstage - never heard the AKG to sound this intimate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I will let it burn in for few days and report back.


----------



## zilch0md

Sheesh!   Let's hope it blossoms into something it's not currently.


----------



## lukeap69

zilch0md said:


> Sheesh!   Let's hope it blossoms into something it's not currently.


 

 I know it will. I kinda expected this based on the impressions on this thread. I think it is good timing since I will be receiving my HD800 within 6 to 7 days.


----------



## zilch0md

Joy!


----------



## stuartmc

Read back a few pages about my burn in experience...something about hanging myself with an interconnect, ha ha. Seriously though, there was a huge difference after playing continuously with my Purist Audio break in disc for two straight days. Contrary to my initial opinion, there was still a small amount of improvement over the next 50 hours. I now use words to describe the sound that are completely opposite of congested, compressed or harsh highs. More like tubulisciously refined audio nectar, lol.


----------



## FlySweep

lukeap69 said:


> Initial impression, congested, compressed, terrible high, nice bass (surprise surprise), and narrow soundstage..


 
  
 Yep.. sounds about right.. LOL.  Let'r cook for a bit.
  
 ..and your jack definitely seems defective.. all my phones insert fully and I have no imbalance issues.


----------



## zilch0md

> More like tubulisciously refined audio nectar, lol.


 
  
 I want me some o' dat!


----------



## zilch0md

We're practically chatting at the moment - all here at the same time, but I've got to go to bed now - 1:16 AM in Dallas.
  
 Nite-nite!


----------



## FlySweep

stuartmc said:


> Read back a few pages about my burn in experience...something about hanging myself with an interconnect, ha ha. Seriously though, there was a huge difference after playing continuously with my Purist Audio break in disc for two straight days. Contrary to my initial opinion, there was still a small amount of improvement over the next 50 hours. I now use words to describe the sound that are completely opposite of congested, compressed or harsh highs. More like tubulisciously refined audio nectar, lol.


 
  
 You got it, Stuart.. I think I heard that very last bit of refinement get realized in the last 50 (out of 100 total) hours or so.. I'm not a burn-in _fanatic,_ in the least.. but I've (subjectively) noticed varying degrees of change in most all my head-fi related gear (namely DACs, amps, and IEMs) with use.. the H10 probably changed the most out of all that I've owned.. I'm still pretty surprised.  What I hear now is a distinguishably more elegant, smoother, more spacious, more resolving presentation than what I heard OOTB.
  
 I've been on the fence about getting the HD800 again (especially with that 35% off Senn deal.. that may have, sadly, passed).. one, because I miss the HD800.. two, because I'm very curious about how it'll pair with the H10 (if there's one phone that'll mercilessly reveal the limitations of the H10, it's the HD800).. and three, given that my UE Reference Monitor (which approaches the HD800 in resolving ability and transparency.. albeit in IEM form) seemed to validate the H10's performance, it certainly bodes well for the HD800, IMO.
  
 ..BUT.. I think I'll grab the HE-560.. again.
  
 DAMN THIS HOBBY.


----------



## lukeap69

Update on the headphone plug thingy...
  
 I tried to open the unit but failed miserably since the allen key I was using is probably metric and I suspect the unit's imperial. sigh! 
  
 However, I am also a mechanical engineer so I've employed the tried and tested method of fixing things. Use a screw driver!
  
 No - I didn't use the screw driver to open the unit. I've inserted it on the socket and did my old family computer Commando game cheat (left, right, left, right, etc.) and voila! *Now, the plug is working when fully inserted*!!! that took me less than 2 minutes. Now, I am off for another cafe latte while 'cooking' this amp (in the words of Flysweep). By the way, this is the pic of my rig this morning before receiving the H10...


----------



## lukeap69

stuartmc said:


> More like tubulisciously refined audio nectar, lol.


 
  
 You, my friend, do not make my waiting any easier! I am trying to be patient while burning in this amp... and you are not helping!


----------



## stuartmc

I really should be asleep....Damn this hobby is right! I did a serious grill mod on the HE-400i..very open grid and the sheerest of sheer cloth. Then I played around with the pads and removed the inner cloth. The end result is a sound I really like. The jump factor with these cans is extraordinary. The dynamics scare me and the larger diaphragm seems to pressurize my ears like I'm right in the room with the bass and drums. The hd600 don't come close to doing this. The only thing I liked better with the Senns was the wider stage and a little more air around things. Now with the mods, the 400i caught up in those areas too. I think the 400i benefits more from the H 10 then the Senns do. I have an Ifi Ican and the H10 spanks the daylights out of it, but the beat down is far more brutal when I use the 400i. It just sounds an order of magnitude more impressive on the planar magnetic. I will be very interested to hear what you think about the 560 combination.


----------



## lukeap69

This thing is a chameleon! Just 12 hours burn-in and the sound is already very much improved. I already like it compared to Lyr 2 with Tesla gold or Amperex OG tubes! Don't tell me guys that this is still going to improve a lot... The Unplugged album of Eric Clapton is already more enjoyable and natural!


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> This thing is a chameleon! Just 12 hours burn-in and the sound is already very much improved. I already like it compared to Lyr 2 with Tesla gold or Amperex OG tubes! Don't tell me guys that this is still going to improve a lot... The Unplugged album of Eric Clapton is already more enjoyable and natural!





Ummm....in a word, yes! There is a point where the burn in makes what seems like a Jeckyl and Hyde transition...probably like 80% change. I'm not sure how early in the process that was for me, but probably after about 20 hours. Then the remaining goodness eases in noticeably but more slowly over the next three or four days. If you like your cake now, you are going to love it when the rest of the frosting gets added.


----------



## lukeap69

Exciting days ahead.


----------



## Kyno

Two things:
  
 1. I'm soon going to receive another Gustard H10. Kind of a confusion with the seller so I bought another one on Aliexpress on 11.11 cause it was cheaper that day only, total of $315 with shipping, with the thought I could always cancel it the next day once the payment has been confirmed, but the seller sent it right away upon confirmation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Not really a bad thing though, I already have a few people interested here (French hifi forum) so I'm sure it will make someone happy. I will also be able to compare it OOTB with mine that'll have reached 100+ hours!
  
 2. HD-800 + Cardas cable ($940!) coming in Friday or Saturday, I'll report back about the pairing with the H10, Polaris and O2.
  
 I've been able to test the T1 just earlier: http://www.head-fi.org/t/197776/sennheiser-hd650-impressions-thread/20520#post_11070972
  
 Pretty nice with the H10, not so much with the O2 or Polaris, but the treble is still a bit too fatiguing to me. I was running it at +6 (or +12) db. Although I had the pre-gain up, you could ear how well the H10 was doing power-wise.
 I'm not sure how I will cope with the HD-800's treble, although there is the Cardas cable as well as the possibility to Anax mod it. We shall see! It was too good of a price to pass on it since it should be easy to resell in case I don't like it, I thought I might as well try it. Next step will probably be the HE-560 in this case.


----------



## zilch0md

lukeap69 said:


> Exciting days ahead.


 
  
  
 Like waiting for a parachute to open - in slow motion!


----------



## Joong

H10 has gravity to pull me down to headfier again with He-6.
it also decommissioned Conductor to a mere Dac.

Dos anybody compare it with Mojo or Violectric v200?


----------



## erdawe

I wish I saw the $315 shipped deal a few days ago, now a little more waiting.


----------



## swannie007

So, anyone used the H10 with the X10 dac yet, or plan to? Curious minds need to know.


----------



## swannie007

My H10 arrived about an hour ago. Got it powered up and running via a Breeze Audio DAC and it sounds quite decent right out of the box.
 I look forward to the improved sound as it gets more hours on it. What pre-gain setting are those of you with the H10 running with full size headphones. Mostly HE 400i's but also T90's, HD650's and Q701's. I know these h/p's have varying impedances but I will mostly be using the 400i's with about 60ish Ohm impedance and just looking for some input from others as a guideline. Cheers.


----------



## swannie007

Got about 17 hours of burn-in on the H10 so far and listening to it with the HE400i's I must say it sounds sublime. The sound reminds me of a good tube amp in that it is very fast without being too soft(dark?) up top. I look forward to the reported improvement in sound as I put more hours on both the H10 and the 400i's as I am quite happy with the sound so far and will be very happy if it improves. I am seriously considering the Gustard X10 dac to pair with the H10 but I need my savings to recover after the Xmas spending orgy. If anyone has any detailed info on the X10, please share. Cheers.


----------



## lukeap69

Good to hear Swannie. I find the highs to be extended but smooth. I wonder how it will pair with the HD800 which is coming within 3 to 4 days.

So far, both Oppo PM-2 and AKG Q701 are enjoyable with the H10. My Schiit Lyr 2 is now begging to get some playing time; that's how good the H10, for me, is. The H10 sounds analogue compared to the Lyr 2 (whatever that means ). The sound of the guitar is so natural and fast and effortless. I enjoy more listening to music than before. For the price, it is one killer amp! Hope others will also find this lesser know gem. It is jusy very good!


----------



## stuartmc

Swannie, it looks like we are headed down the same path. I am loving the synergy between the 400i and the H10.  I too am eyeing the Gustard X10, but I am also mulling an X9 purchase.  Either one is going to make a beautiful, compact stack.
  
  

  

  
 I currently have the new Aune S16 and it's a suave sounding dac, but I really need something to compare it to. I'm very sensitive to hyper detailed, etched treble, so I'm concerned that the Sabre chips in the X10 might be a little much for me. The X9 uses the tried and true Wolfson chips, so It may be the more sure thing in this regard. However, (there always is an "however")  soundstaging is equally important to me and If the X10 throws a wider and deeper stage with better image specificity, I could live with a slightly more harsh top end. Adding to the conundrum is the fact that my favorite Gustard guy on ebay, Polychen0306, is selling the x9 for $342 delivered and apparently does not have the X10. Other sellers, like Kidult, have the X10 for as low as $519 and a nearly $200 difference is significant to me.  We already know that the x9 is basically a Rein x3 minus the upsampling feature, and the Rein is very favorably reviewed. That takes some of the risk out of snagging an X9 for such a great price.  I have not been able to find much in the way of reviews for X10 and though people say it looks like a Wyred for Sound Dac-2, I have not heard of any direct comparisons.  It sure would be great if someone with a well regarded ES9018 dac would give us a direct comparo with the X10.
  
 Ahh...the frustrations of audiophilia nervosa! lol.  I might have to take one for the team.


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> Update on the headphone plug thingy...
> 
> I tried to open the unit but failed miserably since the allen key I was using is probably metric and I suspect the unit's imperial. sigh!
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is really great news. Little things like that can bug the heck out of you and somewhat spoil the joy of the new toy. So glad it was an easy fix!


----------



## lukeap69

stuartmc said:


> This is really great news. Little things like that can bug the heck out of you and somewhat spoil the joy of the new toy. So glad it was an easy fix!




Thanks Stu. 

Yeah, I'm glad it was fixed easily because it will be costly to return it to China.


----------



## zilch0md

lukeap69 said:


> Good to hear Swannie. I find the highs to be extended but smooth. I wonder how it will pair with the HD800 which is coming within 3 to 4 days.




I wonder, too!


----------



## swannie007

lukeap69 said:


> Good to hear Swannie. I find the highs to be extended but smooth. I wonder how it will pair with the HD800 which is coming within 3 to 4 days.
> 
> So far, both Oppo PM-2 and AKG Q701 are enjoyable with the H10. My Schiit Lyr 2 is now begging to get some playing time; that's how good the H10, for me, is. The H10 sounds analogue compared to the Lyr 2 (whatever that means ). The sound of the guitar is so natural and fast and effortless. I enjoy more listening to music than before. For the price, it is one killer amp! Hope others will also find this lesser know gem. It is jusy very good!


 

 That describes the highs very well. I suspect that the H10 will pair very well with the HD800's due to the control it has on the top end which is the one area where the HD800 is very picky about source choice. Enjoy.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Swannie, it looks like we are headed down the same path. I am loving the synergy between the 400i and the H10.  I too am eyeing the Gustard X10, but I am also mulling an X9 purchase.  Either one is going to make a beautiful, compact stack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, it is a dilemma. I don't think you can go wrong with either the X9 or the X10. From the limited reading I have done in this regard it appears that the X10 is a more revealing dac whereas the X9 is more musical. Tough choice indeed!  Whatever you decide, I'm sure you will be well pleased with the final outcome. I have done about 36 hours of burn-in on the H10 and it does indeed sound better than it did at 20 hours or so. This thing is a true treasure and somehow sounds like a very good tube amp. Don't know how but it does and I am a very happy camper! Cheers.


----------



## Kyno

Heeey, I received my second H10!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Well, it does change quite a bit once it's burnt-in. Very similar of course, but I'd say it's basically quite compressed compared to my own. I was almost expecting a bigger change, but it's definitely enough for the music not to be as enjoyable. Reminded me of the fears I had OOTB with my first one.
  
  
 As for the HD-800, I really don't like my ODAC or Gamma2/H10 combo with it, and I'm the first surprized about it.
  
 It was better for me than my O2 or Garage1217 Polaris with both my HD-650 and T1 so I was expecting something pretty decent, but I actually prefer my Polaris by a huge margin with this one.
  
 I spent about 6h with my H10 because I couldn't test my Polaris at first. It wouldn't start and I believed for a moment it might be broken. I ended up taking a closer look and found that I had plugged-in the wrong power supply after cleaning my desk, oops 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Fortunately it's still running fine.
  
 I was rather confused with the H10. I was thinking the HD-800 was pretty nice, detailed, with good imaging, a huge soundstage, good clarity, etc, but also cold, analytical, without much body nor bass, and somehow flat.
 It was still very good for classical music, but no emotion or PRaT at all on any tracks whatsoever.
  
 I was dissapointed, but thought it may simply be the wrong headphones for me and/or (more likely) that my amp/dac weren't good enough. It's also known not to be that great with pop and bass music, or at least compared to classical or the T1, so well...
  
 Since I tend to value the H10 more or less on the range of an V200, and that something like and HDVD 800 seemed out of budget, I was almost already set out on selling it to try the next flagship (HE-560). Wrong thinking!
  
 The change with my Polaris was dramatic, it suddenly became alive. Not as detailed, but more body, more bass, more musicality. I still (digitally) EQ it down a bit in the highs, they are a tad less controlled than with the H10 and it was already too bright for me with the Gustard, so they feel a bit unbalanced now, but I'm going to try Anax mod next week and see how it goes.
 I would prefer non-fatiguing headphones (I come from the HD-650, that says it all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) so I'm still not sure I will keep them, depend on how my ears will feel with the Anax mod and/or the EQ. 
  
 The Gustard has its merits, I will still choose it with my HD-650, and definitely with the T1 over my O2 or Polaris, but it didn't do it for me at all this time. Mind you I only had an ODAC and Gamma2 at hand to pair it with, no $800-1k DAC, so there is that too.
 Very impressed with my Polaris however, even paired with my small DACs.


----------



## zilch0md

Hi Kyno!

How long have you had your HD800 and on what other gear have you used them?

Thanks!

Mike


----------



## swannie007

Ok so I have about 48 hours of burn-in on the H10 and I am loving it! I am listening to a lot of my music and hearing nuances in the music that I have never heard before. Now before you think my other gear is very low rent let me tell you that I have a selection of Schiit gear, both ss as well as valve and a Cayin tube amp and a Shanling hybrid and a Cayin ss amp as well as Breeze Audio ss amp(Lehman clone) and a Breeze Audio dac(which I am using with the H10) and a Rotel dac  and Beresford dac, and so forth. In other words, I am used to pretty decent sound but the H10 is head and shoulders above them all, and I don't say this lightly as I am not swayed by marketing and other nonsense, sorry, input. I let my ears do the talking, so to speak, and they are telling me they like the H10 a LOT! My preferred headphones with it at the moment seem to be the T90's with the 400i's a close second with the Q701's and the HD650's a hairs breadth behind. I must say that I am very pleased with the purchase of this amp and will very likely buy a Gustard X9 or X10 to pair with it in the new year. The detail retrieval is amazing! Listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn right now(Tin Pan Alley) and it is sublime! I can see that I will be in my office until the wee hours listening to this thing and rediscovering many of my old favourite tracks. Enjoy the music. Cheers.


----------



## lukeap69

kyno said:


> Heeey, I received my second H10!!
> 
> Well, it does change quite a bit once it's burnt-in. Very similar of course, but I'd say it's basically quite compressed compared to my own. I was almost expecting a bigger change, but it's definitely enough for the music not to be as enjoyable. Reminded me of the fears I had OOTB with my first one.
> 
> ...




I will soon find out myself as thr HD800 is on the way. I can only compare Lyr2, H10 and Theorem 720. Hopefully one of those will pair nicely with the HD800.


----------



## Kyno

zilch0md said:


> Hi Kyno!
> 
> How long have you had your HD800 and on what other gear have you used them?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just 24h, with O2, Garage1217 Polaris and Gustard H10.
  

 Not that the H10 is bad with it, and the Polaris also has its drawbacks (less details, less controlled, harsher highs somehow), and I recognize what I like about the H10 when I go back to it (I prefer its signature), but the magic is just not happening.
 At least not with my current DACs, I would need one that could bring some punch to it, like the Polaris does, cause they currently feel somehow lifeless to me. I'm actually going to ask if someone has an idea over the HD-800 topic.


----------



## stuartmc

Kyno, you may want to try a good DAC that has balanced outputs, so you can use the H10's balanced inputs. I found the balanced inputs on the H10 to sound appreciably better than the single ended. Not a huge difference, but definitely more of that "draining lake" stuff poking out of the noise floor and that is where the magic lies for me. Hey, maybe you should get one of the Gustard DACs and be our guinea pig.


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks Kyno! 

Which of the following problems are happening when you listen to the H10 > HD800?

1. Insufficient bass for your tastes.
2. Too bright for your tastes.
3. A brittle or harsh treble.
4. Fatiguing (enough to discourage you from listening for very long at a time).
5. No more detail than what you hear with the H10 > HD650.
6. Too much detail for your tastes.

I would really appreciate anyone's H10 > HD800 feedback on these points (with a mention of the DAC being used).

Thank you!

Mike


----------



## No_One411

Here are my thoughts on using the H10 with the HD800. 
  
 The HD800 felt thin and wispy the first week I had the H10. I didn't hear sibilance or harshness persay, but it really lacked dynamics, and wasn't an enjoyable listen. I was really worried that the H10 would end up being one of those cold, analytical amplifiers. I had much more success pairing the H10 with my Paradox Slants. It exhibits much better driver control for planar magnetic headphones. 
  
 With that said, I think I've reached the point where the H10 has really started to open up, and the HD800 pairing has started to sound much better to me, particularly when listening to classical. 
  
 I've also noticed that the amp seems to perform better after being left on for a while. It may be any arbitrary length of time, so I don't want to specifically quote any numbers. What I do after coming back from work is turning the H10 on, taking an initial listen on a couple of test tracks, and come back after dinner. (Let's say an hour or so) The amp sounds so amazing at this point. Everything I put it through sounds absolutely fantastic. HD800, Paradox Slants, Alpha Prime, UERM, etc. There is no fatigue, no lack of body, no lack of dynamics, etc. 
  
 I suggest to just turn the amp on, and enjoy the music. There is so little to complain about with the H10. 
  
 Note: I did start using the 4V balanced XLR outputs from the Anedio D2. There is a slight improvement overall there, but I can certainly live with the RCA outputs if I did not have a DAC with balanced outputs.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Yes, it is a dilemma. I don't think you can go wrong with either the X9 or the X10. From the limited reading I have done in this regard it appears that the X10 is a more revealing dac whereas the X9 is more musical. Tough choice indeed!  Whatever you decide, I'm sure you will be well pleased with the final outcome. I have done about 36 hours of burn-in on the H10 and it does indeed sound better than it did at 20 hours or so. This thing is a true treasure and somehow sounds like a very good tube amp. Don't know how but it does and I am a very happy camper! Cheers.




Well, my brother from down under, I've decided to give one of the Gustard dacs a try. I'm committed...just have to figure out which one. I'll probably have the choice nailed down next week after the Rega Apollo-R arrives. I'm still kind of old school and I want a good disc spinner, so I don't have to rip my entire collection. I've been using my Meitner CD-d transport and I think the Rega will be an improvement. It's the same shoe box form factor as the Gustard gear, so it will fit great in my bedroom setup.

The Rega uses the same Wolfson chip (a single one), so I'm thinking that I may get a good idea of the Wolfson flavor when I run it straight into the H10. If it's a little over warm and smooth, then I will probably opt for the X10, rather than the X9.


----------



## zilch0md

zilch0md said:


> Thanks Kyno!
> 
> Which of the following problems are happening when you listen to the H10 > HD800?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Kyno, I read from another poster in the HD800 impressions thread that you've already sold your HD800.  Is that true?   
  
 (Astonished)
  
 Mike


----------



## Kyno

zilch0md said:


> Kyno, I read from another poster in the HD800 impressions thread that you've already sold your HD800.  Is that true?
> 
> (Astonished)
> 
> Mike


 
  
 I'd say 1 to 4 to your previous post (1 and 4 without EQ being the most important).
  
 I did sold it as it was already planned as such (didn't lose money on it), just because I wish to have an idea of what the HE-560 sounds like  Wasn't supposed to be so quick though, and I probably won't be trying the HiFiman before 3 to 4 months, but things don't always go as planned, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Doesn't mean I won't go back to it eventually since I was starting to enjoy it more than my current HD-650.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Well, my brother from down under, I've decided to give one of the Gustard dacs a try. I'm committed...just have to figure out which one. I'll probably have the choice nailed down next week after the Rega Apollo-R arrives. I'm still kind of old school and I want a good disc spinner, so I don't have to rip my entire collection. I've been using my Meitner CD-d transport and I think the Rega will be an improvement. It's the same shoe box form factor as the Gustard gear, so it will fit great in my bedroom setup.
> 
> The Rega uses the same Wolfson chip (a single one), so I'm thinking that I may get a good idea of the Wolfson flavor when I run it straight into the H10. If it's a little over warm and smooth, then I will probably opt for the X10, rather than the X9.


 

 Well my friend, I'm glad to see that you will "take one for the team" so-to-speak. I appreciate your sacrifice and suffering on behalf of others. Very noble of you! Let us know how the pain and suffering goes. Cheers from Oz.


----------



## No_One411

Well, I'd love to take to try out the Gustard DACs, but I am currently not in the market for one...
  
 My Anedio D2 has been everything I needed in a unit, and sometimes even more. 
  
 My Geek Out 720 has also been a great portable DAC solution for me, so I'm afraid I won't have much use for the another desktop unit.


----------



## Joong

Reading Korean reviews regarding x10 and 9,
there are great reviews here and there for x 10.
I think x10 is ok to try.
One of them said that x-10 is known to have the best performer per cost.

Somebody said x9 has some problem in diode. Some concerns about capacitor, for which I have no idea.


----------



## zilch0md

kyno said:


> I'd say 1 to 4 to your previous post (1 and 4 without EQ being the most important).
> 
> I did sold it as it was already planned as such (didn't lose money on it), just because I wish to have an idea of what the HE-560 sounds like  Wasn't supposed to be so quick though, and I probably won't be trying the HiFiman before 3 to 4 months, but things don't always go as planned, right?
> Doesn't mean I won't go back to it eventually since I was starting to enjoy it more than my current HD-650.




Thank you, Kyno!


----------



## Kyno

stuartmc said:


> Kyno, you may want to try a good DAC that has balanced outputs, so you can use the H10's balanced inputs. I found the balanced inputs on the H10 to sound appreciably better than the single ended. Not a huge difference, but definitely more of that "draining lake" stuff poking out of the noise floor and that is where the magic lies for me. Hey, maybe you should get one of the Gustard DACs and be our guinea pig.


 
  
 Thanks for the suggestion. I agree it would be interesting to check a better DAC, moreover with balanced inputs, although it may not be just now. Is the rank of guinea pig noble?


----------



## swannie007

kyno said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I agree it would be interesting to check a better DAC, moreover with balanced inputs, although it may not be just now. Is the rank of guinea pig noble?



The ranking of guinea pig is indeed a noble title. Image, if you will, our current lifestyle and it's wonderful devices and medications and think what an important role guinea pigs played in all of this and how many of these wonderful things would not exist, or be as advanced, if not for the noble guinea pig.
Go forth and aspire to be a guinea pig and advance the betterment of mankind!


----------



## stuartmc

Oh my goodness, I'm laughing so hard now it hurts! Lmao. Yes, yes, the guinea pig is the most noble of our small friends who have risked life and limb for the betterment of well.....audio, darn it! It's being the point man on a daring battlefield patrol, marching headlong into certain peril knowing only that the lives and love of your audio brothers will sustain you if you can but find that illusive passage into the realm of the sacred sound, that place where they all will be safe and filled with unspeakable joy from THE sound, the logos, the harmony of the three in one....Ok, I digress...but only a little, lol.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Oh my goodness, I'm laughing so hard now it hurts! Lmao. Yes, yes, the guinea pig is the most noble of our small friends who have risked life and limb for the betterment of well.....audio, darn it! It's being the point man on a daring battlefield patrol, marching headlong into certain peril knowing only that the lives and love of your audio brothers will sustain you if you can but find that illusive passage into the realm of the sacred sound, that place where they all will be safe and filled with unspeakable joy from THE sound, the logos, the harmony of the three in one....Ok, I digress...but only a little, lol.



Amen to that brother!


----------



## stuartmc

joong said:


> Reading Korean reviews regarding x10 and 9,
> there are great reviews here and there for x 10.
> I think x10 is ok to try.
> One of them said that x-10 is known to have the best performer per cost.
> ...




Thanks Joong. That's very helpful. Did you see any comments where the sound of the two were directly compared?


----------



## Joong

Not yet, there is no review in that combination found in Korean sites.
 However they do know what they are doing for conservation of signal.
 For example the rod connected from the potentiometer to volume pot through a long rod which is mechanical way coupling in order to avoid the electrical coupling even though they can directly wire easily to simplify design / to save money.
 We might try to buy a x-10.


----------



## lukeap69

Playing Heart Shaped Box (Live Acoustic Version) of Evanescence with Audio-gd NFB-1 (2015)>Gustard H10>Oppo PM-2 (DAC to Amp is balanced Liton silver cable connection). The background is black (no noise at all) and SQ is heavenly. I can't imagine reaching this level of SQ with rig not TOTL! Thanks to this thread for introducing H10 to me!


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Amen to that brother!




Were you picking up what I was laying down? Ha!....I think you were brother.


----------



## zilch0md

lukeap69 said:


> Playing Heart Shaped Box (Live Acoustic Version) of Evanescence with Audio-gd NFB-1 (2015)>Gustard H10>Oppo PM-2 (DAC to Amp is balanced Liton silver cable connection). The background is black (no noise at all) and SQ is heavenly. I can't imagine reaching this level of SQ with rig not TOTL! Thanks to this thread for introducing H10 to me!


 
  
 That's awesome Luke - it's nice to see someone so content with their rig.
  




  
 Mike
  
 (Still waiting for an H-10 > HD800 owner to rave with similar sincerity and passion...)


----------



## Kyno

zilch0md said:


> That's awesome Luke - it's nice to see someone so content with their rig.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I really wish I had another amp like the Crack+SB to compare it with, along with a better dac. Something like ODAC + Bitfrost Uber (or another in that range) + Gustard X9/X10, and Polaris + H10 + Crack. Reasonably priced and decent gears (or so it seems for the X9/X10). 
 I know everyone taste is different, but I can't believe the 3 or 4 people here liking the HD-800 with their H10 were hearing the same thing as me, and it makes me question the pairing with the ODAC, especially since the ODAC/Polaris was bringing something pretty good with the 800.
  
 So my next move might just be to upgrade the source, that could bring good info.
  
 What are you guys using as DAC?
  
 Is there someone that can read japanese here by the way? 
 http://dime.jp/genre/114150/


----------



## lukeap69

My HD800 will arrive in a day or 2 so I will be able to hear it with Audio-gd NFB-1>H10. I have Lyr 2 and Theorem 720, so I will have a bit of mixing and matching (if time permits). Hopefully, I will be satisfied with any combo with the HD800. Otherwise, I may start hunting an amp which plays nicely with HD800.


----------



## stuartmc

kyno said:


> What are you guys using as DAC?
> 
> Is there someone that can read japanese here by the way?
> http://dime.jp/genre/114150/


 
  
 My google translator always does funny things with Japanese. I can't make out everything this author is saying, but his general impression is that the X9 is quite good and plays with boys costing over twice as much.
  
 I am currently using the Aune S16. It uses the new AKM, AK4495S chip which accepts up to 768kHz PCM data and 5.6MHz DSD data. It has balanced outputs that my H10 seems to like.


----------



## Kyno

swannie007 said:


> The ranking of guinea pig is indeed a noble title. Image, if you will, our current lifestyle and it's wonderful devices and medications and think what an important role guinea pigs played in all of this and how many of these wonderful things would not exist, or be as advanced, if not for the noble guinea pig.
> Go forth and aspire to be a guinea pig and advance the betterment of mankind!


 
 Oh my, I almost skipped that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks a lot sir, it does make me feel good about it.
  
  
 Quote:


stuartmc said:


> My google translator always does funny things with Japanese. I can't make out everything this author is saying, but his general impression is that the X9 is quite good and plays with boys costing over twice as much.
> 
> I am currently using the Aune S16. It uses the new AKM, AK4495S chip which accepts up to 768kHz PCM data and 5.6MHz DSD data. It has balanced outputs that my H10 seems to like.


 
  
 Thanks. I can't say it's not hard to think about the X9 (X10 might be a bit too costly) when considering DACs on that price range.


----------



## Joong

The Japanese site has no good review for the DAC.
 It said the LCD is too bright, not stylish, and the usual quality for Chinese DAC that he expected in usual so on.
 He added some digital volume control for it, and found some improvement has been observed.
 However one thing is certain that X-9 generates some curiosity for sure.


----------



## swannie007

Listening to the H10 with my T90's driven from my Mac through Bit Perfect via optical input to the Breeze Audio dac and I must say that it is superb! I find the 400i's just a little dark for my taste but this may be due to limited hours on the 400i's(about 60 hours). I will continue to burn in the 400i's and see how they sound after about 150 hours on them but right now, I am very happy with this combo. Next I need to upgrade the dac. Toss up between the Aune S16(which is being tested by a noble guinea pig as we speak) or the Gustard X10. No rush to upgrade just yet as my current dac is quite capable and I am enjoying the sublime sound. Hopefully, in time, there will be a comparison by some noble guinea pig between the two. I wait with baited breath! Cheers.


----------



## stuartmc

C'est moi?..ha ha, the not so noble guinea pig checking in. Swannie, after your 400i breaks in, if you still find it a little "dark", I would suggest you try the grill mod. I did it and very much like the results. I think it smoothes out the response and eliminates some of what you may be calling darkness.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> C'est moi?..ha ha, the not so noble guinea pig checking in. Swannie, after your 400i breaks in, if you still find it a little "dark", I would suggest you try the grill mod. I did it and very much like the results. I think it smoothes out the response and eliminates some of what you may be calling darkness.


 

 Sir GP, (the senior, noble guinea pig), I think this mod you mention may well be a worthwhile endevour as I love the 400i's but, for my taste, they need to "open" up a little, i.e. they need a little more "sparkle" on the top end and this explains why I love my T90's and Q701's so much. So the grill mod was ......?


----------



## Schopenhauer

no_one411 said:


> Here are my thoughts on using the H10 with the HD800.
> 
> The HD800 felt thin and wispy the first week I had the H10. I didn't hear sibilance or harshness persay, but it really lacked dynamics, and wasn't an enjoyable listen. I was really worried that the H10 would end up being one of those cold, analytical amplifiers. *I had much more success pairing the H10 with my Paradox Slants.* It exhibits much better driver control for planar magnetic headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 No__One411: Mind sharing your subjective impressions about the H10 + Paradox Slant combo?


----------



## audionewbi

Wow 399 usd, I might give it a try.


----------



## swannie007

audionewbi said:


> Wow 399 usd, I might give it a try.


 

 You won't be sorry. Just let it burn in for about 40 hours or so and it really does open up nicely.


----------



## Schopenhauer

swannie007 said:


> You won't be sorry. Just let it burn in for about 40 hours or so and it really does open up nicely.


 
 Just got one from pollychen. Made the leap. Especially given the price.


----------



## swannie007

schopenhauer said:


> Just got one from pollychen. Made the leap. Especially given the price.


 

 Welcome to the club. Enjoy!


----------



## No_One411

schopenhauer said:


> No__One411: Mind sharing your subjective impressions about the H10 + Paradox Slant combo?


 
 Hi there, 
  
 The biggest things about the H10 with the Slants is how much control over the driver the amp exhibits. I've found this to be true for all the planar magnetic headphones that I've driven out of the H10. It is certainly a more satisfying combo to me than with the HD800 thus far. 
  
 What do I mean by more control?
  
 Well, it never feels like it's struggling. Everything is kept extremely tight, and yet you never get a sense of sibilance. You get a very full sounding headphone, that's still very exciting and dynamic, along with a neutral sound signature. I've noticed that it's easy to tell when planar magnetic headphones are not being driven enough. You lose a lot of body, and the bass seems very loose and weak. The mids also seemed a little recessed and did not have the lush mids that you generally associate with planar magnetic headphones.  Not with the H10. The pairing with the Slants isn't something someone who only listens to Dubstep and needs just bass would find satisfying, but most other people would have no complains about both the quality and quantity of bass. Female vocals sound absolutely amazing with the pairing as well. Again, never a hint of harshness, even with close-mic recordings, which generally plague Asian singers who record with relatively weaker mics and are very susceptible to the harsh "ssss".
  
 So far, I've tried the H10 with HE500, HE6, HE560, Paradox Slants, LFF Enigmas, Alpha Prime and Code-X. All of them pair exceptionally well with the H10. I do generally try to avoid Audeze headphones due to poor fit and discomfort, so I apologize for no experience there. A common problem with planar magnetic headphones is providing enough current. The H10 has that in spades. For the HE500, Alpha Prime and Paradox Slants, I am pretty happy with the +6 pregain option, and keep the volume around 11 o'oclock, which is enough volume for my listening preferences. I do need to turn it a bit higher for the HE560, HE6 and Code-X, or simply switch to the +12 option and keep it around the same. 
  
 Hope this helps. I know I'm not great with descriptions.


----------



## Schopenhauer

no_one411 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> The biggest things about the H10 with the Slants is how much control over the driver the amp exhibits. I've found this to be true for all the planar magnetic headphones that I've driven out of the H10. It is certainly a more satisfying combo to me than with the HD800 thus far.
> 
> ...


 
 That helps greatly and is a fine description. I should have my G10 by the end of this week. In the next week or so I may receive a custom Paradox Slant. Hence my question. It's good to hear that it the H10 pairs well with the HE500, which I now own and love, and the HE560, which I hope to get in the future. Some people complain that the Alpha Dog can sound strident depending on upstream gear. I notice you have the Alpha Prime. Did you have the Alpha Dog beforehand? If so, care to comment on the Alpha Dog's treble when paired with the H10? If you didn't own the Alpha Dog beforehand, care to comment on the Prime's treble? I'm interested as I'm particularly susceptible to a hot treble. That means the bit about the absence of sibilance in the Paradox Slant + H10 combo is great news!
  
 Also, your gear looks ridiculously awesome. I would love especially to pick up an Enigma and a Code-X.


----------



## stuartmc

Jeff, that was a really great description. I couldn't agree more about the H10's grip on the planar magnetics. My HE400i sounds way better than the HD600 when plugged into the H10, when in contrast it was just a slight improvement when listening through the Ifi Ican. This tells me that the ultra low impedance and high current of the H10 benefits planar magnetics more than headphones with conventional drivers.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Sir GP, (the senior, noble guinea pig), I think this mod you mention may well be a worthwhile endevour as I love the 400i's but, for my taste, they need to "open" up a little, i.e. they need a little more "sparkle" on the top end and this explains why I love my T90's and Q701's so much. So the grill mod was ......?




Go to the HE400i impressions thread and the boys talk all about it. It is also discussed on all the other Hifiman headphone threads. Head-fier Jerg is responsible for it as are all the pad mods.

My experiments with power cords and interconnects have had more influence on tonality and soundstaging than the grill mod did. I have so many options lying around here that it has been maddening, but the results have made it all worthwhile. The biggest change came with the digital cable from my Rega Apollo R to the Aune S16. Surprisingly, a non-digital interconnect was by far superior to everything else I tried. The Acoustic Zen, Zero Crystal, Silver Reference was the clear winner. They also were the best when running the Rega straight into the unbalanced inputs of the H10. The H10 was also pretty sensitive to power cord choice and also to power conditioning. I will keep this simple and just say that the opening up and top end sparkle you're seeking are very much effected. The Tice power block III was a no no, but the Quantum Octave with an extra Quantum Symphony plugged in turned out to be a big yes yes. I swapped in and out five different power cords and finally settled on the Analysis Plus silver Oval directly into the H10 and the Acoustic Zen Tsunami feeding the Quantum Octave power conditioner. I was doing a lot of talking to myself during this process....mostly mild expletives about how in the heck this can change the sound so much.


----------



## stuartmc

When running balanced from the Aune S16 to the H10, I only had one pair of xlr fitted interconnects to use. Fortunately, they were a half meter pair of Analysis Plus silver Ovals that I already knew were quite good. I think mono Crystal silver cables tend to give the best top end without harshness. They also have consistently given me the most open and expansive soundstage. All of this blather is just to recommend that you play around with interconnects and power cords to tune your sound to the way you like it.


----------



## stuartmc

Just got word from our Gustard guy Polychen that the X10 DAC is being upgraded and that is why he is only selling the X9 now. This is what he had to say in our last correspondence:

"Sorry to answer you so late.
yes,they are changing it,the appearence will be changed ,and also
there are differences between the internal Optional USB
Increasing the IIS interface
Full interface hardware solution DSD
DOP decoding support
thanks"

So, it looks like I will be waiting a few weeks to make my decision. I suspect that the price of the current X10 will drop like a rock when this new model comes out.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Just got word from our Gustard guy Polychen that the X10 DAC is being upgraded and that is why he is only selling the X9 now. This is what he had to say in our last correspondence:
> 
> "Sorry to answer you so late.
> yes,they are changing it,the appearence will be changed ,and also
> ...


 

 I like the sound of that! I don't particularly care about DSD and it's associated nonsense so a discounted  original X10 may suit my needs just fine.


----------



## zilch0md

Hi Stuart,
  
 Quote:


stuartmc said:


> My experiments with power cords and interconnects have had more influence on tonality and soundstaging than the grill mod did.





> I was doing a lot of talking to myself during this process....mostly mild expletives about how in the heck this can change the sound so much.


 
  
 This post reveals you that you've been around the block and then some!  
  





  
 As a relative newcomer to Head-fi (four years and counting), it seems that all the people who are making the most sense, in the comments they post and impressions they share, eventually touch the subject of power conditioning and reveal that they are big believers of the influence clean power and good power cables can have on sound quality.  
  
 It's like a secret known only to the oracles of audio, and yet it's not a secret - it has been disseminated far and wide, only to be dismissed by the masses as some kind of old wives' tale.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   
  
 I point to the success of Stanley Beresford's strategy of offering relatively inexpensive DACs with integrated headphone amps, that (I argue) are affordable, in part, because they include very modest (inexpensive) power management components. The sonic success of his gear is actually dependent on his customers subsequently following his advice to replace the included switch mode PSU, with an external rechargeable battery pack (which he neither includes nor sells.)  And, for his_ Bushmaster MkII_, at least, he even offers a $15 upgrade to an 18-pin PIC chip, reprogrammed specifically for use with the assumed cleaner power of battery packs.
  
 To a number, it seems that everyone who gets a battery pack hears an immediate improvement (varying with the quality of power they had been pulling from their AC outlet and the resolving power of downstream components) but these same people get an even lower noise floor, greater detail and transparency, when they then upgrade to the reprogrammed chip - which he strongly advises should not be used with the switch mode PSU on AC power.  I conjecture that the original chip has been programmed, not covertly, but rather out of necessity, to intentionally "smear" the noise that typically comes in from an AC outlet through the switch mode PSU he ships, where his reprogrammed upgrade chip removes that "filter" on the assumption that the battery power is going to be much cleaner than what one would typically get from an AC outlet.  If you tried to use the "battery" chip in a _Bushmaster MkII_ that's on AC power, your sonic quality could vary wildly, depending on the quality of that AC power.  
  
 All said and done, Beresford is saving his customers a lot of money by offering gear that's actually designed to perform at its best with $100 battery packs - instead of including $300 or more worth of power conditioning components in every chassis. He openly promotes upgrading to battery packs, but gives you a way to run without them, if you prefer.  
  
 Contrast Beresford's approach to something like the far more expensive CEntrance _DACmini CX_, which basically* re-manufactures* the power coming into it, accepting any DC voltage in the range of 9V to 19V, as long as it can deliver at least 2 Amps of current. The power supply built into the_ DACmini CX_ (and the _DACmini PX_) are a significant portion of their cost.  Even the CEntrance _DACport_ USB-powered DAC/amp includes* *_five separate_* *power supply circuits to clean up and distribute the noisy power that typically comes from laptop and PC USB ports.
  
 I love what Vinnie Rossie (of RWA) has done with his new _LIO_ modular DAC/amp that's powered using "ultra capacitors" - better than batteries.  But its price is out my league in price, sadly.
  
 I'm a believer in clean power, so here comes a question:  If I wanted to spend $1000 on power conditioning, for no more than 500 Watts worth of 120V AC gear that cannot be battery-powered, what would you recommend?  (I know that's burdensome, given all the many possibilities, but I would really appreciate your input.)
  
 Thanks!
  
 Mike


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> I like the sound of that! I don't particularly care about DSD and it's associated nonsense so a discounted  original X10 may suit my needs just fine.


 
 I'm thinking the same. I don't use computer/usb at all, so these changes will be meaningless to me.  I sent a follow up message to Polychen and asked him specifically if there will be any changes/improvements to the dac output side of things.  If he tells me no, then I think I will ask him if he can pick up the current X10 and give me a good deal on it.  The cosmetic  change to the case is no big deal either. I think the front faceplate on the current model is just fine.


----------



## stuartmc

zilch0md said:


> This post reveals you that you've been around the block and then some!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I've been around the block so many times that now I think I need a walker.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   There is so much good information in your posts-- I can tell you have been doing your homework, even if that equates to less trips around the block.  I'm pulling stuff out of my hi-fi closet that I haven't fooled with in more than ten years.  I have to say that it has been fun and I'm now kind of glad that I didn't get rid of all this stuff.   What I have to say about power cords and conditioners is therefore a bit dated, but I'll give you my brief two cents.
  
 I am a natural skeptic, so when I first started playing with stuff I really didn't want to hear a difference.  I was actually pissed off about it...it was like are you @#~+* kidding me!..now I'm going to spend hours and major bucks on power cords and power conditioners.  My dedicated listening room had a separate circuit isolated from the rest of the house and seperate grounding too, so I didn't have quite the problems that some do with appliances and florescent light balances crapping up the power.  Nevertheless, power conditioning made some significant improvements, so let's start there.   I am of the opinion that simply cleaning up the power supply can yield slight improvements in sound, but that will vary greatly depending on how dirty your electricity is in the first place.  There is also some benefit from isolating your noisier digital components from the more sensitive ones farther down the signal path.  There are lots and lots of devices that will do this for you and I don't think you have to spend a bundle to accomplish this. Early on I tried four different conditioners-  the API power wedge, an early version of the PS audio power plant and two others whose names escape me.  There were only the very slightest of differences between them in my system.  Each one did its job of cleansing and isolating more or less effectively.  Then I discovered a brave new world of electricity "enhancing" that went beyond mere conditioning.  This may be the province of "snake oil" and self-delusion to some, but again, I didn't want to hear a difference and I was ticked off when I did.  My introduction to this brave new world came courtesy of George Tice, who later became my friend.  George took a lot of flack over his "clock" that you plugged into any outlet and it magically altered the sound of any components on the same circuit.  The Tice TPT treatment  just wasn't very effective with the clock, but it was VERY effective when he treated conditioners, power cords, cables and interconnects.  The farther down the signal path you went, the more efficacious the treatment was.  Just what this "treatment" was remained something of a mystery. George told me that he irradiated the metal in these devices by some means - and I think it was a very strong electro-magnetic pulse (hence Tice Pulse Technology, or TPT)- and somehow it altered the physical characteristics of the conductor in such a way that any electrical signal passing through it was also effected. He was kind enough to send me indentical interconnects, one set TPT treated, and the other set not.  I had one of my audio buddies switch them out when I was out of the room and I could tell every time when the TPT treated cable was in the signal path.  What did it do?  Well, it gave the lower midrange and bass some extra warmth, but mostly what I heard were soundstaging effects - images were more cylindrical and floating in space, much less like cardboard cutouts.  So George decided to incorporate the TPT treatment into his Power Block conditioners and of course I decided to get each version.  I preferred the "effect" at the power conditioning source because the interconnects and speaker cables were a little too much, and in my opinion,  I could get better sound with other cable products aided by the TPT treated conditioner at the electrical source.  
  
 Next comes the Quantum products.  Their first product the Quantum Symphony didn't condition the power at all. It was like the Tice clock - you plugged the black box into the outlet and supposedly the device convinces those obstreperous little electrons to behave themselves. The treatment is called Quantum Resonance Technology or QRT. I had two of them and I heard some things going on that were quite similar to the Tice produts. Bill Steirhout of Quantum developed a nice power strip called the Octave which does standard conditioning and isolation along with QRT, so I took him up on getting a review unit.  Just like the Tice TPT treatment, the Quantum QRT treatment was most noticeable and beneficial in the imaging and soundstaging area. It also gave an ease and liquidity to the treble that was very appealing, whilst avoiding the midrange /bass warmth and bloatiness of the TPT products.  When I mentioned that the Tice Power Block was a no, no in my current headphone system, I meant that I already had enough midrange warmth and I didn't need any more.
  
 Power cords are another kettle of fish. There are as many flavors of them as there are interconnect flavors.  Whats really crazy to me is that the power cord that goes from the outlet to the Quantum Octave (pre-conditioning) makes a difference too...a little less than the ones that come after it, but still noticeable.  That just makes me laugh, or perhaps hurl some more of those mild expletives.


----------



## stuartmc

That probably wasn 't much help to you Mike. I really don't know what is out there now and what the good deals are.  If you suspect your power is dirty, you can probably get some good results on the cheap.  I think I may want to corrrect or modify my statement about the Tice Power Block being too warm.  The Tice Power block's warmth is very subtle. I had another Tice Power cord in the mix at the time and that was the agent of almost all of the warmth.  I have reccomended the Tice power cords quite often to people who's systems sounded too cold and analytical to them.
  
 Cheers,
 Stu


----------



## Schopenhauer

Also, 


no_one411 said:


> I do generally try to avoid Audeze headphones due to poor fit and discomfort, so I apologize for no experience there.


 
 I have the LCD-2F. When I get the H10, which could be as early as Friday, I'll pay special attention to its pairing with the LCD-2F. Once I've collected my thoughts, I'll post them on here.


----------



## Lorspeaker

www.cabledyne.com 
  
 my sonic infrastructure company of choice


----------



## Schopenhauer

Just a heads up. The price of the H10 fell 48USD. It's now around 352USD. Don't know how long it'll stay at this price. It blows because I JUST ordered it. Oh well, can't really complain. If anyone was on the fence, now might be the time to strike.


----------



## swannie007

Sir GP, or more commonly known as Stu, what are your thoughts on using a UPS to supply power to a music system? I suspect that a lot of the "unruly electrons" will be brought into line with this device, or am I deluding myself again? Surely the Master Guinea Pig would know of such things. I wait with baited breath and high expectations for the dispersement of your superior knowledge in this area. I would say that I am not worthy but that would simply not be true as I am also of the guinea pig breed.  Cheers from Oz.


----------



## lukeap69

schopenhauer said:


> Just a heads up. The price of the H10 fell 48USD. It's now around 352USD. Don't know how long it'll stay at this price. It blows because I JUST ordered it. Oh well, can't really complain. If anyone was on the fence, now might be the time to strike.


 
 Nice! I got mine during Chinese Single's Day 11.11 for 280USD plus shipping. I selected DHL/Aramex for faster shipping for a total price of 344USD. Not bad at all.


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks Stuart!  
  
 Quote:


stuartmc said:


> I've been around the block so many times that now I think I need a walker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


stuartmc said:


> That probably wasn 't much help to you Mike. I really don't know what is out there now and what the good deals are.  If you suspect your power is dirty, you can probably get some good results on the cheap.  I think I may want to corrrect or modify my statement about the Tice Power Block being too warm.  The Tice Power block's warmth is very subtle. I had another Tice Power cord in the mix at the time and that was the agent of almost all of the warmth.  I have reccomended the Tice power cords quite often to people who's systems sounded too cold and analytical to them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Stu


 
  
 Your testimony is inspiring because, yet again, I am hit over the head by someone saying, "This shouldn't make such a difference, but it's undeniable."  
  
 In trying to research the latest gear, I'm finding that the most respected power conditioning stuff offers more Watts than I need, and thus, I would end up buying a dump truck, when all I need is a 3/4 ton pickup.
  
 Sparing you and anyone else with too many details for this off-topic discussion, a HiFi guru friend who seldom posts on Head-Fi has spent a lot of money across several different brands and says that *Balanced Power Technologies* offers a lot of bang for the buck in power conditioning - in his experienced opinion.
  
 http://www.b-p-t.com/bp-1-ultra.html
  
 My problem is that their smallest offering (as seen at this link) more than exhausts my $1000 budget before I even get into replacing power cables, and it's oversized for my needs - offering 8 outlets for up to 8.5 Amps (1000 Watts), when I really only need four outlets and 120 Watts for my desktop headphone setup.  
  
 Break out the violins, I'm going to cry...   LOL
  
 I have to do more research...
  
 But thanks again!
  
 Mike


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/pdf/power/substation.pdf


----------



## Joong

Is it real that power code or power conditioner affect sound quality?
 When I tried the power code and power conditioner, there is no effect at all.
 My machine chain is an Oppo 105 - Burson conductor - H10 - He6.
 There is nothing being changed even though I put considerable money for the power conditioning and the code.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Is the H10 amp generating enough power for the HE6? hows the sound? 
  
 ( did u upgrade your RCAcables too? )


----------



## Joong

I am using Monster ones for RCA cables.
 The power is good enough for He-6.
 I could not go beyond 2 oclock in usual listening.
 With Conductor, I turned it at the max position.
 The SQ is very good with He-6, which was left out for a while because I could not find a reasonable amp.
 Even though I used Matantz PM 6005, Tp-60, and Teac amps, all of them were not good enough.
 Now I am stuck with H-10.


----------



## zilch0md

joong said:


> Is it real that power code or power conditioner affect sound quality?
> When I tried the power code and power conditioner, there is no effect at all.
> My machine chain is an Oppo 105 - Burson conductor - H10 - He6.
> There is nothing being changed even though I put considerable money for the power conditioning and the code.




If your AC power is "clean" to begin with and/or the power conditioner itself is not very effective and/or your home doesn't have a dimmer or florescent lights on the same circuit as your audio gear and/or the power supplies in your audio gear are well designed and/or one or more components in your chain, including the headphone, is not transparent or resolving enough to discern any defredation caused by less than perfect power and/or your choice of recordings lack sufficient blackness to reveal power noise and/or your hearing is compromised or unskilled at listening analytically,, etc. etc. etc... You might not detect any improvement when using a power conditioner.



Mike


----------



## Joong

You are right. My place is a remote corner of Ontario Canada where everything is clean. The electricity is one of them.


----------



## Lorspeaker

maybe it is the MONSTER


----------



## FlySweep

HD800 in the house.. first off.. good god.. I love this headphone. I loved it the first time I owned it.. but I love it even more this second time.

I've done some preliminary listening with the H10 (lossless streams from TIDAL --> Schiit Wyrd --> Geek Out 1000 --> H10 (RCA input) --> HD800 (stock cable/no mods)).. and.... and..... and... well, I want to listen some more before commenting.


Teaser?


From what I've heard so far.. I'll have nice things to say about this combo.


----------



## erdawe

You're quite a tease  But, well formed and collected impressions are definitely superior; so listen on, I can certainly wait...
 I will have both of these on the way in the coming months, actually the H10 en route as we speak.


----------



## lukeap69

flysweep said:


> HD800 in the house.. first off.. good god.. I love this headphone. I loved it the first time I owned it.. but I love it even more this second time.
> 
> I've done some preliminary listening with the H10 (lossless streams from TIDAL --> Schiit Wyrd --> Geek Out 1000 --> H10 (RCA input) --> HD800 (stock cable/no mods)).. and.... and..... and... well, I want to listen some more before commenting.
> 
> ...




Thought you are going for HE-560? Do you have other amp to compare the HD-800-Gustard H10 combo? I have been listening with H10 and Lyr 2 with my HD-800 for a week now.


----------



## FlySweep

lukeap69 said:


> Thought you are going for HE-560? Do you have other amp to compare the HD-800-Gustard H10 combo? I have been listening with H10 and Lyr 2 with my HD-800 for a week now.


 
  
 I have both the HE-560 & HD800, Luke..  I feel more than a little spoiled.. LOL.  Both are terrific phones.. absolutely _terrific_.  My other desktop amp is a tube hybrid (Cavalli CTH.. check the photo albums in my profile to see a pic of them with the HE-560).. and I have a fully loaded Geek Pulse /x /f /i coming (whenever they start shipping).  Congrats on the Lyr2.. I've read very good things about it.. I'd certainly be interested in comparisons of it with the H10.


----------



## lukeap69

You are spoiled indeed! Which one do you like more? 

I will post my impressions/comparison of the H10 and Lyr 2 sometime in the future. Initially, I thought the H10 is better in every aspect but my opinion changed as I listened to both more and more...


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Sir GP, or more commonly known as Stu, what are your thoughts on using a UPS to supply power to a music system? I suspect that a lot of the "unruly electrons" will be brought into line with this device, or am I deluding myself again? Surely the Master Guinea Pig would know of such things. I wait with baited breath and high expectations for the dispersement of your superior knowledge in this area. I would say that I am not worthy but that would simply not be true as I am also of the guinea pig breed.  Cheers from Oz.


 
 Senior GP says that he has never tried a UPS, so take this with a grain or two of salt.  I don't believe that UPS's have much in the way of isolation between devices plugged into it.  That defeats one of the reasons for having a power conditioner in the first place..  They are designed primarily to keep the juice flowing in a temporary power outage, and not so much to give you clean power.  There very well may be exceptions to that rule now.  My other concern with a standard UPS would be the internal output impedance of the device. Ideal would be zero output impedance, but of course no conditioner/voltage regulator does that.  I don't think it is as big a concern for the UPS manufacturers as it is for those that build units for audio.


----------



## Lorspeaker




----------



## stuartmc

I remember that unit. The Richard gray power company had been around for years. I think it was about 15 years ago that their product was eviscerated in Stereophile by Jonathan Skull. One of the most brutally negative reviews I ever read.


----------



## stuartmc

Update on the new and improved (allegedly) Gustard X10. Polychen says the factory will be releasing it on the 15th of this month. Still no news on what, if any, changes have been made to the DAC output side. I will be trying one of the Gustards, but I'm waiting for more info.


----------



## wikifi

Really like H10. I am just a starter hifi'er
  
 PC-->Sony PHA-3-->H10-->HD800 --> Best sound listened ever in my life from headphones. Youtube, Tidal and Flac all sound superb. Sound has real weight and solid feel. I keep listening for longer and longer...might have lost sense of time while listening to this setup. - Most neutral sound.
  
 PC-->Sony PHA-3-Balanced Amp Out-->HD800 --> Very wide open and 3D sound. good for movies and games. Music lacks weight here. do not like this setup for music.
  
 PC-->iDSD Nano-->H10-->HD800 --> Very good all rounder. Voices are intimate and standout. highs and overall lacks clarity compared to PHA-3. not bad at all. very good setup for less.
  
Another note: H10 was very warm during first 60 or so hours. Once it is broken in, it settle down to a lesser warmer temperature. I always keep it on.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## lukeap69

Warm. Yes, but not Schiit Lyr 2 warm.


----------



## Schopenhauer

lukeap69 said:


> Warm. Yes, but not Schiit Lyr 2 warm.


 
 That's interesting. I haven't heard the Lyr 2 described as warm before. It seems that everyone comments on its power and dynamics. But if it has a warmer sound than the H10 - which I find to be a touch on the side of warmth - then I'd imagine I'd like the Lyr 2's signature.


----------



## stuartmc

I think the boys were talking about physical temperature, not sonic signature, lol. The Schiit gear runs notoriously hot...you can practically fry an egg on it.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> I think the boys were talking about physical temperature, not sonic signature, lol. The Schiit gear runs notoriously hot...you can practically fry an egg on it.


 
 Ah! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That makes sense. But it would be too bad about the signature! lol. Doubles as a griddle.


----------



## lukeap69

Yeah I was talking about warm to touch... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 However, it is also applicable to the sound signature. As I've mentioned earlier, the first time I've tried the Lyr 2 with the HD800, I thought it is an experience to forget. To me (then) the H10 best the Lyr 2 in every aspect. Until I tried it again after few days. It must have been that my Amperex OG tubes needed (again) time to burn in after months of hiatus (I had the Tesla gold pins before using  the Lyr 2 with HD800.)
  
 The SQ of Lyr 2 - HD800 definitely improved. So I have been using H10 and Lyr 2 back to back or side to side or up to down (that's how physically they are stacked!) I came to understand and differentiate each amp when used with the HD800. This is how I find the two amps compared with each other
  
 Lyr 2 with Amperex OG has more boomy bass, the H10 has tighter bass. Lyr 2 has more 'grunt' (don't know if you can call it power) not to be confused with volume. The H10 with +6dB gain is already louder than the Lyr 2 on high gain. But the sound of instruments like guitar seems fuller and more powerful on the Lyr 2. I have played with the gain settings on the H10 to match the fuller sound of the Lyr 2 and it's closer at +12dB gain, however the volume can be very loud easily. So is the Lyr 2 the overall better amp (for me) when using the HD800? 
  
 No. Let me explain.
  
 Though I believe the Lyr 2 has fuller sound, the timbre/tone of the H10 is far better. It is more natural, organic and very nice to listen to. It is not 'digital'. This is something that draws me to listen to the H10 more than the Lyr 2. The highs are so smoother on the H10. This helps on higher volume listening compared to the Lyr 2. The vocals on the Lyr 2 are more forward, they seem to be on  the right place on the H10. The dynamics, I feel, are better on the H10 when using the XLR connection. Instrument separation, IMO, is more apparent on the H10. The highs, though, are more prominent on the Lyr 2.
  
 So, is there a clear winner for me? None. Probably the H10 because of my sound preference. Although I like what I am hearing on the Lyr 2 as well. So both amps will be used on the HD800 depending on the songs/music I am playing. But if I have to select only one, it would be the H10. However, I don't think it will be my end game amp for the HD800. Having said that, I have no plans (yet) of replacing any of these amps anytime soon as I am enjoying both of them immensely. Not to mention that both amps do well with my Oppo PM-2 and AKG Q701. For these cans, I prefer the H10 over the Lyr 2. Almost always.
  
 Of course, the above are all IMO. YMMV. (I am not very good in describing the difference and in using audiophile terms, so your understanding maybe different.) 
  
 Okay, back to listening now...


----------



## FlySweep

lukeap69 said:


> Which one do you like more?


 
  
 I like both, atm.. the HD800 is the more vivid, refined, technically-capable phone.. but the HE-560 is no slouch.. and I find the 560 a little more versatile as far as genre compatibility.


----------



## Lorspeaker

stuartmc said:


> I remember that unit. The Richard gray power company had been around for years. I think it was about 15 years ago that their product was eviscerated in Stereophile by Jonathan Skull. One of the most brutally negative reviews I ever read.


 
  
 v happy with mine...there is that blackness/quietness in the background. 
  
  
  
 back to the H10


----------



## lukeap69

flysweep said:


> I like both, atm.. the HD800 is the more vivid, refined, technically-capable phone.. but the HE-560 is no slouch.. and I find the 560 a little more versatile as far as genre compatibility.


 
 Thanks. You have reduced my desire of getting a HE-560. From the HE-560 thread, some head-fiers seem to think HD800 and HE-560 have similarities in SQ (at least that is my understanding.) I don't want my cans to be almost similar that's why I have the Oppo PM-2. Although it is getting little playtime now, it still has a place in my listening programme (European spelling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). They couldn't be more contrasting but both have place in my arsenal. Did you do the HD800 mod or planning to? 
  
 Listening now to Spandau's Through the Barricades via Theorem 720>H10>HD800. The highs' tamer than using Audio-gd NFB-1 but ever so slightly. Oh, the Theorem 720 seems a tad warmer too which works in favour of the HD800. Wish I could have more time to compare, mix and match...


----------



## zilch0md

> Originally Posted by *wikifi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> [snip]
> 
> ...


 
  
 The problem with this combination is that the PHA-3 only puts out 320mW (maximum, not rms) into 32-Ohms when using its balanced output (and worse, only 100mW (max. not rms) into 32-Ohms via the TRS jack.  
  
 The PHA-3 simply doesn't have enough power to drive the HD800 (and for that matter, not enough power to drive many fullsize headphones).  
  
 Stick to using only efficient headphones with Sony's portable solutions.
  


Spoiler: An off-topic rant about Sony's very weak amps, but absolutely awesome UIs in their DAPs



If someone gave me a PHA-3, I would only use its Line Out with an external amp - for anything other than the most efficient of headphones or IEMs.  
  
 The PHA-2 is even worse - with only offers 90mW (max. not rms) into 32-Ohms - and the PHA-2 doesn't even offer a Line Out.
  
 Every Sony portable product, including their DAPs and DAC/amps, have really *weak* amps - compromised for the sake of increased battery life with small form factors - which is very appealing to the mass market they are trying to sell into - and which, admittedly, sound fine as long as you are using truly *efficient* headphones or IEMs.
  
 But the Sony DAPs have the absolute BEST UI of any DAP manufacturer out there!  Hands down! No contest!  Sony truly is the One and Only when it comes to friendly, bug-free UIs in portable players! 
  
 To me, the best possible portable solution available right now, is the Sony NWZ-A17 with its small size, great UI, long battery life, and (infinite capacity) microSDXC card reader - bypassing both its mediocre, proprietary sigma-delta DAC -and- its *weak* 10mW (max. not rms) headphone amp, using their WM-Port to USB cable, connected to your choice of portable or desktop USB DAC/amp that has its own power source - not to a portable DAC/amp that expects to pull 5VDC from the USB port.  
  
 I think the *Sony NWZ-A17 DAP > WM-Port-to-USB cable plus the forthcoming OPPO HA-2 DAC/Amp* would make a formidable, high performing, small, attractive, and very user friendly portable solution, with absolutely *none* of the many UI bugs and necessary workarounds suffered by owners of DAPs from the likes of FiiO, HiFiMan, iBasso, etc.
  
 Disclaimer:  I'm a Beta tester for the OPPO HA-2 DAC/amp.


  
 Mike


----------



## zilch0md

lukeap69 said:


> [snip]
> 
> So, is there a clear winner for me? None. Probably the H10 because of my sound preference. Although I like what I am hearing on the Lyr 2 as well.
> 
> [snip]


 
  
 Thanks for your detailed report Luke!
  
 The line I've quoted baffles me though, because when I borrowed a friend's Schiit Lyr for 30 days, even buying and rolling tubes, including Mullard NOS, that I eventually gave to my friend, I didn't like the Lyr's "fuzziness."  Nothing I tried could overcome the lack of resolution.  
  
 When I reported my findings here at Head-Fi, Jason Stoddard even paid for shipping both ways so that he could test my friend's Lyr, only to declare that it was working perfectly.
  
 That experience, coupled with your perception, leaves me thinking that either the *Lyr 2* of today is spectacularly better than the *Lyr* I tested a couple of years ago, or the H10 has a "Lyr-like" lack of resolution.
  
 Mike


----------



## lukeap69

Resolution wise, the H10 as the slight advantage but the Lyr 2 with Amperex OG is no slouch. When I first heard the HD800 with the Lyr 2, I thought it was very bad as per my previous post. But that was because my tubes needed to be burnt in again. I wasn't expecting to like the Lyr 2 but I did to some extent. Also different tubes may have different sound. I know I will not like the Tesla gold pins with the HD-800 but I can be wrong. Not sure what's the difference bet the 1st & 2nd gen of Lyr but the Lyr 2 I have can be very enjoyable.


----------



## stuartmc

lorspeaker said:


> v happy with mine...there is that blackness/quietness in the background.
> 
> 
> 
> back to the H10




I have no doubt that it's a good conditioner, since it has withstood the test of time. There were more than a few owners that thought J10 had taken leave of his senses when he wrote that review. Quite the dust up in the letters section.


----------



## wikifi

schopenhauer said:


> Ah!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 lol. it meant warm to touch.
  
 This amp is a fantastic combination with HD800. Sounds full and absolutely unique and crisp bass (listen to I Got U by Duke Dumont). I auditioned LCD3 before buying HD800 it but LCD3 sounds exactly like my bmw sound system and I wanted something different.  
  
 Thanks zilch0md for sharing his experience. I read that low power also effect openness and 3D of sound but these things are all present while using balanced out of PHA-3. Secondly single ended amp out has lot less power but sound better than its balanced amp to me.
  
 I use H10 with +6 and +12 set. Can't go beyond 1 O'clock on volume. high gain does results in better sound in this case. 
  
 My advice is to buy high end gear at the start. It will save you money in the long run, where you gradually spend more on trying various low end gears.


----------



## zilch0md

wikifi said:


> *My advice is to buy high end gear at the start. It will save you money in the long run, where you gradually spend more on trying various low end gears.*


 
  
 Yes!


----------



## Joong

This means H10 is a high-end gear.


----------



## wikifi

joong said:


> This means H10 is a high-end gear.


 
 I think so, without the high cost. It is also good looking and even connectors are high precision in shape showing attention to details. I researched before buying, to pair it with HD800 and H10 exceeds all of my expectations by a high margin. I could not save money by going any other than HD800 headphone as I auditioned LCD3, Sony Z7 and others and realized that some day I had to buy it.  same for PHA-3 as it is most versatile, having ESS chip, battery powered and can be used in many different setups and even has balanced amp out.


----------



## Lorspeaker

there are diff flavors in the "hi end " bracket too...
 if u are uncertain of your taste, mistakes can be $$$$$


----------



## Schopenhauer

So I've had the H10 for several days now. Very brief initial impressions: Between the HE-500 and the LCD-2F, the former is more striking with the H10. By that I mean I think the HE-500 has benefited more from my acquiring the H10 than has the LCD-2F. The LCD-2F + H10 is still a very fine pairing. But I'd already heard the LCD-2F well driven. My previous experience hadn't really shown the HE-500 off. Anyway, I hope to have something more detailed to say soon.


----------



## zilch0md

wikifi said:


> I think so, without the high cost. It is also good looking and even connectors are high precision in shape showing attention to details. I researched before buying, to pair it with HD800 and H10 exceeds all of my expectations by a high margin. I could not save money by going any other than HD800 headphone as I auditioned LCD3, Sony Z7 and others and realized that some day I had to buy it.  same for PHA-3 as it is most versatile, having ESS chip, battery powered and can be used in many different setups and even has balanced amp out.


 
  
 From what I'm hearing about the H10, it definitely qualifies as not being a waste of money.  I consider lesser purchases, at or below the likes of the JDS Labs O2 or ODAC, to be representative of where you will later find your money to have been wasted.


----------



## Schopenhauer

Originally I’d intended to say a bit about the LCD-2F + H10 pairing; I may still get around to that. The LCD-2F has been my favorite all-around headphone for a while now. I bought the H10 after reading this thread on Head-Fi; I’d discovered this thread by association when researching the Cavalli CTH. (FlySweep is the salient link in this chain). The H10 looked like a suitable amp for my HE-500, I thought, and the price wasn’t prohibitive. In fact, it was encouraging. Since the H10’s specs indicated it should pair well with planars generally, and since planars are my preference, I pulled the trigger.
  
 Rather than the LCD-2F, I’d like to focus on the HE-500 + H10 pairing. This is because I think the H10 drives the HE-500 better than any other amp I’ve heard. And drives it by a larger margin than whatever is the LCD-2F’s with the H10 relative to other amps. The previous champ had been ALO’s RxMk3B+, but ultimately I found the combo fatiguing for longer listening sessions, and best in short bursts. The RxMk3B+ was, I’d wager, a tad aggressive. Still, I miss that bass boost knob.
  
 The relevant listening with the H10 was done with the +6dB pre-gain setting enabled. I agree with No_One411 that it’s an excellent setting for the HE-500.  The HE-500 itself was outfitted with the newer Focus Pads (not the A version) which come standard on the HE-560 and HE-400i. I’ve always known that there was a reason I’ve held onto the HE-500. This is it. I find it difficult to give content to my claims without appealing to specific music. Lapalux’s “Cousin If” from the _Many Faces Out of Focus_ EP – my current favorite single test track for headphones - has never sounded better. Lapalux’s _Nostalchic_ is seriously important. It’s the album I thought it was.
  
 For the rest of the post, I want to draw attention to certain aspects of the pairing. My hope is that this helps others to gain a better understanding of the H10, as well as the HE-500. Either one is a reason for owning the other.
  
 The extension and the timbre quality of the bass is one of the more striking qualities of the HE-500 paired with the H10. The LCD-2F is often touted as a basshead’s headphone; while it certainly excels low down, I tend to think of the LCD-2F as a percussion headphone. I love it with e.g. Aphex Twin. When the sub hits on the HE-500, however, I’m liable to think the walls of my apartment are shaking. E.g. “Sphynx” on Etch’s _Old School Methods EP_. But there’s zero apparent distortion both in the mids and in the bass regions above the sub. On the contrary, I think the extremely low and tight bass contributes to the naturalness of the HE-500’s mids.
  
 Now, of the headphones I’ve heard, the HE-500 has the widest apparent soundstage. It also has one of the apparent deepest. This can be very interesting when listening to music that has large tonal blindspots, like dubstep, since a pleasant sense of airiness comes through. I’ll return to this idea shortly. But it can sometimes sound like you’re present _at_ the music – i.e., where it’s happening – spatially located, as it were, with respect to its source.
  
 In other words, the HE-500 has a remarkably transparent sound signature. A headphone’s sound signature is transparent, I take it, when it approximates the sound of loudspeakers. People have claimed that the LCD-2F is extremely speaker-like, but I’ve always thought it sounds like nothing more(!) than a really great pair of headphones. Of course, I love the sound of great headphones. Who doesn’t? But sometimes great headphones (can) sound like great speakers. Which means they (can) sound like _the real thing_.
  
 In the present case, the H10 makes my HE-500 sound like exactly that. This impression is created, I think, by the combination of the HE-500’s tremendous sub-bass imaging and the natural, centered and vaguely forward mids. Because of the width of the soundstage, an impressive sense of space is created in the stereo image. There’s greater separation than with, say, the LCD-2F. For these reasons, and for the one listed above, the HE-500 is an excellent headphone for dubstep – broadly understood. And particularly with Volor Flex’s _Sabo_. I feel as though I’m hearing the music _in_, say, a subway tunnel. That the HE-500 has a black background when driven by the H10 (even with the +6dB boost enabled) means that this sense of space is in no way obscured by the headphone.
  
 Moving forward, I’d like to hear the HE-560 with the H10. Given what FlySweep had to say, and what I’ve myself heard with the HE-500, I expect I would like the pairing. And I still want to say more about the LCD-2F + H10 pairing.  Oh, and I hope to have the Cavalli soon as well!


----------



## stuartmc

Hey guys....the H10's DAC twin called the X12 has finally arrived. Pollychen will be posting it soon on his ebay store, but a few others have already beaten him to the punch. Take a look at this listing with lots of info and pictures.  Not only is it cosmetically now the twin of the H10, the X12 also has some significant improvements on the inside.  I am particularly pleased to see that there is a new discrete analog output stage that they say was developed for their soon to be released X20 flagship... hmmm....now that's got me really intrigued! I'll bet this one is a dual chip model sort of like the X-Sabre.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X12-DAC-ES9018-OPTIC-Coaxial-XMOS-USB-Asynchronous-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/121187114115?pt=US_CD_Players_Recorders&hash=item1c37509c83
  
 I'm going to be ordering one of these soon so I can do a direct comparison with my Aune S16. By the way, the S16 is soooo good that I will be very surprised if this new X12 sounds appreciably better.
  
 Stu


----------



## Schopenhauer

That looks sweet as hell. I'm going to have to consider the X12.


----------



## lukeap69

Nice specs. Hope it delivers like the H10. For 530USD, it will be a winner.


----------



## stuartmc

More news from Pollychen, aka, our Gustard guy.  Apparently, much was done with the new model on the USB end, including a new daughter card with I2S and USB with a new XMOS chip..  Here's the good news - for those of us who don't care about using a computer as a source (I'm talking to you too Swannie, my OZ friend) the modular approach has allowed them to produce a lower priced X12 without the usb interface.  I am waiting on a quote for this stripped down version and if it is significantly less (I'd say at least $70 would do it) then I'm going to put in my order this week.
  
 Pollychen has his add up on ebay for the standard X12 version, so I'm going to show him a little head-fi love ----
  
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DACX12-ES9018-USB-XMOS-CPLD-DSD-DAC-Coaxial-Optical-AES-/261703075054
  
 His price is a little higher than the lowest listed one, but the main difference is that Pollychen ships DHL expedited and the others don't. That, and his proven track record is more than enough for me.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> Not only is it cosmetically now the twin of the H10, the X12 also has some significant improvements on the inside.  I am particularly pleased to see that there is a new discrete analog output stage that they say was developed for their soon to be released X20 flagship... hmmm....now that's got me really intrigued! I'll bet this one is a dual chip model sort of like the X-Sabre.


 
 Any idea how soon is "soon"?
  


stuartmc said:


> His price is a little higher than the lowest listed one, but the main difference is that Pollychen ships DHL expedited and the others don't. That, and his proven track record is more than enough for me.


 
 +1. The fact that I received the amp inside of a week when it shipped from China is amazing. Pollychen goes above and beyond.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> Any idea how soon is "soon"?
> 
> +1. The fact that I received the amp inside of a week when it shipped from China is amazing. Pollychen goes above and beyond.




If you are asking about how soon the alleged X20 will be available, I have no idea. They just said that in the add copy for the X12. I didn't ask Pollychen about it because I think I will be satisfied with the X12.

The guy is excellent with communications too, so I have no qualms whatsoever in supporting him.


----------



## swannie007

And I just pulled the trigger on an X10 last week! I am sure I will be happy with it. I will report back when I get home from my work rotation and listen to it. Cheers to all from the "bush" in Oz.


----------



## pdrm360

Has anyone tried the H10 with low impedance headphones or IEMs?


----------



## SDBiotek

pdrm360 said:


> Has anyone tried the H10 with low impedance headphones or IEMs?



The noise floor is a bit too high for use with my Noble iems, even with gain set to -12. Less sensitive iems might have less of a hiss issue.


----------



## Schopenhauer

pdrm360 said:


> Has anyone tried the H10 with low impedance headphones or IEMs?


 
 Low impedance + high efficiency? The HE-500 is low impedance. I've thought about trying my Amperiors on it, but haven't yet. Those are 18Ohms and can be easily powered by my HTC One. The H10 does have a -12dB pregain setting.


----------



## No_One411

pdrm360 said:


> Has anyone tried the H10 with low impedance headphones or IEMs?


 
 I've done -6 setting with my UERMs and they work fine. Not as much play with the volume as one would like, but it sounds fantastic. 
  
 Do have to switch down to -12 for the Noble 4s though, and it does push the brightness to something that I wouldn't want to listen to for an extended period of time. 
  
 Not much hiss, at least for me, especially when you have music playing. You notice a little when idle. 
  
 Hope this helps. The amp works best driving planar magnetic headphones. I'm still much happier with it's performance with planar magnetics over the HD800.


----------



## Kyno

Well, I hadn't find it that good with the HD-800 either, as my earlier feedback stated, but I tried with my HE-560 and I confirm it was great 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I was usually at -6 considering it was being a little too shouty at -12 (I'm pretty sure my small DAC wasn't helping at all with that).


----------



## zilch0md

no_one411 said:


> [snip]
> 
> Hope this helps. The amp works best driving planar magnetic headphones. *I'm still much happier with it's performance with planar magnetics over the HD800. *


 
  


kyno said:


> *Well, I hadn't find it that good with the HD-800 either*, as my earlier feedback stated, but I tried with my HE-560 and I confirm it was great
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks guys!
  
 I'm still trying to accumulate a consensus on the H10 > HD800, so I appreciate your feedback (positive or negative).
  
 Mike


----------



## stuartmc

I think I agree with you guys, but it's not that the H10 is somehow not a great amp with conventional drivers. It's just that it is completely magical with planar magnetics. Make no mistake about it - the amp drives my HD600's better than anything else I have tried, but with my HE-400i's it's at a different level. That level is of course subject to the rules of diminishing returns and audiophile hyperbole, but darn it, it's magical to me.


----------



## doco

my soul tells me to hit that Buy button but my body is not willing. I'm just so paranoid about how i won't like the solid state sound after sticking with an OTL tube amp for so long. headphone is hd650 which is all i use these days.
  
 quick someone give me that beatdown. btw i remember flysweep saying he was going to try balanced cables for this amp. was there any update on that?


----------



## stuartmc

doco said:


> my soul tells me to hit that Buy button but my body is not willing. I'm just so paranoid about how i won't like the solid state sound after sticking with an OTL tube amp for so long. headphone is hd650 which is all i use these days.
> 
> quick someone give me that beatdown. btw i remember flysweep saying he was going to try balanced cables for this amp. was there any update on that?




I have extensive experience with tube amps, having personally auditioned well over twenty of them in my main system. I do know what great tube amps sound like, including the OTL variety. When I said many posts ago that this is the most tube like ss amp I have heard in a very long time, I wasn't kidding. By tube-like, I mean gloriously grain free with a delicate and airy top end and real meat on the bones in the critical midrange without bloat, overhang or any other negative artifact I can think of.


----------



## stuartmc

Oh, forgot to mention that I use balanced cables with mine and I think the sound is slightly more refined and a slightly lower noise floor than with the single ended inputs. My two cents served with the appropriate grain of NaCl.


----------



## pekingduck

My HE560 just came in today and the H10 should be here tomorrow


----------



## stuartmc

Now that is a feast for the ears, not unlike a finely prepared Peking Duck, lol


----------



## lukeap69

doco said:


> my soul tells me to hit that Buy button but my body is not willing. I'm just so paranoid about how i won't like the solid state sound after sticking with an OTL tube amp for so long. headphone is hd650 which is all i use these days.
> 
> quick someone give me that beatdown. btw i remember flysweep saying he was going to try balanced cables for this amp. was there any update on that?


 
 My H10 sounds more tubey than my hybrid Lyr 2. Yeah, I know it's crazy.


----------



## lukeap69

To those who have tried both RCA and XLR connections, did you notice that the treble is harsher using the XLR connection and the bass is less boomier? Might be mind adjusting automatic whenever I change the connection but this is consistent on what I hear everytime. I only notice this when using HD800 and not apparent on Oppo PM-2 (with PM-1 original leather pad.) The XLR connection seems to have better dynamics but again this maybe due to my brain automatically adjusting whenever I change the connection.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> More news from Pollychen, aka, our Gustard guy.  Apparently, much was done with the new model on the USB end, including a new daughter card with I2S and USB with a new XMOS chip..  Here's the good news - for those of us who don't care about using a computer as a source (I'm talking to you too Swannie, my OZ friend) the modular approach has allowed them to produce a lower priced X12 without the usb interface.  I am waiting on a quote for this stripped down version and if it is significantly less (I'd say at least $70 would do it) then I'm going to put in my order this week.
> 
> Pollychen has his add up on ebay for the standard X12 version, so I'm going to show him a little head-fi love ----
> 
> ...


 
 Hey Stuart my friend, appreciate the mention....I think? Anyway, have purchased an X10 from a chap over here and it should be delivered by the time I get home from my current work roster. Can't wait to hear the A10 and X10 combo. I think I may even venture into the balanced waters with my HE 400i's. Need to find out more about how to do it and what cables to get etc. Would love to hear a balanced setup before putting up the cash for all the cables etc. Maybe someone here could give me some sort of idea about the benefits of a balanced setup with this amp. Look forward to any insights. Cheers from "the bush" where the internet is like playing the slots in Vegas...sometimes you get lucky, but mostly, it's a losing propisition.


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> To those who have tried both RCA and XLR connections, did you notice that the treble is harsher using the XLR connection and the bass is less boomier? Might be mind adjusting automatic whenever I change the connection but this is consistent on what I hear everytime. I only notice this when using HD800 and not apparent on Oppo PM-2 (with PM-1 original leather pad.) The XLR connection seems to have better dynamics but again this maybe due to my brain automatically adjusting whenever I change the connection.




Hmmm.... interesting. So far I haven't heard that harsh treble thing, but when you say better dynamics we may be hearing something similar. A slightly lower noise floor would tend to make things sound more dynamic. Are you using identical ic's, except for xlr vs. rca connection? I compare single ended to balanced by using 1m lengths of Analysis Plus silver ovals. Actually it's the only ones that I have in both single ended and balanced form. I have loads of different single ended ic's, but the differences between the ic's overshadow what I hear in the pure balanced vs. Single ended comparison. It's fairly subtle to me.


----------



## stuartmc

Hi Swannie. Yes, that was a good and friendly mention. From a prior chat you had indicated, like me, that you weren't into the computer/USB side of things, so a price reduction sans usb might appeal to you too. 

As for the balanced shindig, you can't do the whole deal with the H10 because it only has a single ended output for the headphones. The only balanced goodness one can experience is that between your DAC and the H10, provided of course that your DAC has balanced outputs. I think we have discussed this before in this thread that having xlr inputs and only single ended ouput on a headphone amp is not that uncommon.


----------



## lukeap69

stuartmc said:


> Hmmm.... interesting. So far I haven't heard that harsh treble thing, but when you say better dynamics we may be hearing something similar. A slightly lower noise floor would tend to make things sound more dynamic. Are you using identical ic's, except for xlr vs. rca connection? I compare single ended to balanced by using 1m lengths of Analysis Plus silver ovals. Actually it's the only ones that I have in both single ended and balanced form. I have loads of different single ended ic's, but the differences between the ic's overshadow what I hear in the pure balanced vs. Single ended comparison. It's fairly subtle to me.




When I said harsher, I meant relative to the other. Yes I use PCOCC cables for both RCA and XLR purchased from eBay seller. The difference is not big but perhaps because HD800 is very revealing, I can easily notice it.


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> When I said harsher, I meant relative to the other. Yes I use PCOCC cables for both RCA and XLR purchased from eBay seller. The difference is not big but perhaps because HD800 is very revealing, I can easily notice it.




Now that you have me thinking about this, I have to say that it is almost impossible to tell whether the difference is on the H10 input side or the DACs output side. Another head-fier sent me a private message about his Aune S16 and said the xlr outputs sounded way better than the single ended ones. I had attributed the improvement solely to the H10 when in fact it is more likely a combination of the two.


----------



## lukeap69

stuartmc said:


> Now that you have me thinking about this, I have to say that it is almost impossible to tell whether the difference is on the H10 input side or the DACs output side. Another head-fier sent me a private message about his Aune S16 and said the xlr outputs sounded way better than the single ended ones. I had attributed the improvement solely to the H10 when in fact it is more likely a combination of the two.


 
 Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. The DAC balanced output is also another factor to consider so different DAC may have different result. Oh, well...


----------



## zilch0md

lukeap69 said:


> My H10 sounds more tubey than my hybrid Lyr 2. Yeah, I know it's crazy.


 
  
 Thanks for the warning!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm getting less and less interested in getting the H10 for my HD800, but my attention has shifted to the idea of using it with the LCD-2 and PM-1.


----------



## Schopenhauer

zilch0md said:


> Thanks for the warning!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The LCD-2F + H10 is epic. I'm starting to think it's a better pairing with the H10 than the HE-500. Or, at least, that I may very well prefer the combo. With the +6dB pregain enabled, the LCD-2F + H10 is like a kick in the face that doesn't hurt: There's so much impact, so much obvious timbre, but, at the same time, so much butter (i.e., it's so smooth!)!


----------



## stuartmc

Ha!...a kick in face that doesn't hurt. I like that. We used to call that "jump factor" but I like your expression better


----------



## lukeap69

zilch0md said:


> Thanks for the warning!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I would agree Mike. It is still a good amp for the HD800 but I like the pairing more with my PM-1 and Q701.


----------



## Schopenhauer

Anyone here have experience pairing the Alpha Dog with the H10?


----------



## doco

welp order the H10 just now. i will do the usual burn-ins for the he-560 and H10. happy holidays! it looks like i won't be disappointed when i read through the thread a third time.


----------



## Schopenhauer

doco said:


> welp order the H10 just now. i will do the usual burn-ins for the he-560 and H10. happy holidays! it looks like i won't be disappointed when i read through the thread a third time.


 
 I seriously doubt you'll be disappointed. The H10 makes the HE-500 come alive. I can only imagine what it will do with the HE-560, which is supposedly less demanding.


----------



## Schopenhauer

I've got an Alpha Dog on the way! After I've spent some time with them -- psychoacoustic burn-in etc. -- with a number of different amps, I'll post my impression of the Alpha Dog + H10 pairing.


----------



## lukeap69

schopenhauer said:


> I've got an Alpha Dog on the way! After I've spent some time with them -- psychoacoustic burn-in etc. -- with a number of different amps, I'll post my impression of the Alpha Dog + H10 pairing.




That would be nice.


----------



## swannie007

Well, got home today and opened up and connected the X10 to the H10 and........what a letdown!!!!! Maybe I am doing something wrong but it sounds like crap! I am very disappointed. The Rotel RDD-06 sounds much better with the H10. At first I thought there was something wrong with my interconnects so I changed them with some others that I know are good, no luck. Then I thought my cans might be the problem so I swopped them out, same. I have changed the USB cable as well but no luck. It sounds like my headphones have a blown driver and the sound is all fuzzy. I am going to let it settle in for a few hours and try different tracks and see if that helps. About 50% of the tracks I play sound like crap and the others are fine, sort of. Maybe I just have a lot of not too good recordings and this DAC just reveals it. Oh well, I have ordered some nice new usb cables and interconnects(Balanced), hopefully they will sort this out. I am going to try a few other things like moving my wireless router and a few other little things and see if it improves. As I type this, there is a Greg Karukis track playing and it sounds just fine so maybe it needs time to settle in and it needs to be fed with premium recordings! Oh well, I'll move back from the ledge now. Merry Xmas and Happy New Years to all of you out there from "Down Under". Cheers, Swannie.


----------



## stuartmc

Swannie my lad, take heart and step way back from that ledge. The H10 has quite a steep break in curve. It goes from do-do to meh, to omg in about 50 hours. Unless you have something else very wrong going on, I'll make a very large wager that you are experiencing the same thing that many of us have.


----------



## stuartmc

If you go back and read my early comments, I said that I almost wanted to hang myself with the interconnects! Lol


----------



## stuartmc

On a brighter note, Polychen has confirmed shipment of the X12 and I should have it inside of a week. It will be squaring off against the Aune S16.... I'm thinking Roman coliseum gladiator last dac standing mayhem, ha ha.


----------



## stuartmc

Oops.... Wait a second, you're talking about the X10, not the H10! My bad, lol. I think the same Gustard break in rule may apply nonetheless. Gustard uses the same robust transformers and caps in both units and there is even more "stuff" in the signal path with the DAC.


----------



## swannie007

Hey Stuart, Have just changed the interconnects and experienced a marked improvement. They must have better RF rejection capabilities or something??? Anyway, walked away and made a nice cup of tea and have returned to the "Bat Cave" as my wife calls it and the fuzzy sound has disappeared..just like that?? Go figure. Anyhow's, sounding a lot better and I will give it a good burn-in and see how I go but at this stage, it looks like I was experiencing some sort of settling in malady. In fact, it is sounding pretty good right now with the 400i's.
 Thanks for reminding me about the burn-in issue with the Gustard gear. Take care people and enjoy the music.


----------



## Lorspeaker

LMAO....u guys are a funny bunch ....this amp sounds dangerous.


----------



## lukeap69

Whether you believe in burn in or not, H10 out of the box sounds like crap. Unlike Stuart, I do not have many long interconnects so I couldn't hang myself.


----------



## swannie007

I came close, but now the X10/H10 combo has at least 12 hours burn-in and it is sounding decidedly better. Right now I prefer it with the AKG 701's over the 400i's. More open sound stage and a brighter sound, which I like. Tomorrow I will try the Beyer T90's once the combo has burned-in overnight.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> I came close, but now the X10/H10 combo has at least 12 hours burn-in and it is sounding decidedly better. Right now I prefer it with the AKG 701's over the 400i's. More open sound stage and a brighter sound, which I like. Tomorrow I will try the Beyer T90's once the combo has burned-in overnight.





Interesting. I have done the outside grill mod to the 400i and also the inside pad liner mod that Jerg and others have suggested and the net result has been a more open stage and more upper midrange clarity. I am very sensitive to what I would call harsh, etched treble, so I'm hoping that the X12 has tamed what others have described as the characteristic Sabre chip sound, that being hyper detailed treble that borders on the harsh, etched sound I dislike.


----------



## hotdogseller

Probably going to pick one these up soon to be my "SS Lyr." 

If anyone is selling theirs hit me up, but if I can't find a used one I guess I'll stick to the guy on eBay.


----------



## lukeap69

hotdogseller said:


> Probably going to pick one these up soon to be my "SS Lyr."
> 
> If anyone is selling theirs hit me up, but if I can't find a used one I guess I'll stick to the guy on eBay.




Warning: my Lyr 2 has been very rarely used after my comparison period with the H10. I would normally turn it on to see the tubes glow.


----------



## hotdogseller

lol it does make for a good Christmas decoration


----------



## RedBull

lukeap69 said:


> Warning: my Lyr 2 has been very rarely used after my comparison period with the H10. I would normally turn it on to see the tubes glow.




May i know what is h10 do better than lyr 2?


----------



## lukeap69

redbull said:


> May i know what is h10 do better than lyr 2?




I don't remember saying better, however yoh can check my impressions at post#229. Cheers.


----------



## natra084

Hi I have a question is this amp quiet when you turn upp the volume without music (Gustard H10)


----------



## lukeap69

Just tried it now with the HD800. No music at max volume. NADA. I can't hear anything.


----------



## natra084

Thanks for the reply I've been on the fence to buy thes amplifier. I have had the V200 but it what's to led back what the HD650 and what I have read in this thread this amplifier should fits me better than the V200.
 One more question I forgot to ask does the amplifier get warm.


----------



## No_One411

natra084 said:


> Thanks for the reply I've been on the fence to buy thes amplifier. I have had the V200 but it what's to led back what the HD650 and what I have read in this thread this amplifier should fits me better than the V200.
> One more question I forgot to ask does the amplifier get warm.


 
 Doesn't get hot to touch. 
  
 Warm at best after being left on for hours. Definitely won't grimace when you touch it. 
  
 --Jeff


----------



## natra084

Do you guys have any recommendation for DAC.


----------



## zilch0md

If not one of Gustard's DACs, but in the same price range and delivering a similar bang for the buck, I'd go with a Beresford Bushmaster MkII or the newer Caiman MkII.  
  
 Flysweep can speak to both of those.
  
 Mike


----------



## RedBull

lukeap69 said:


> I don't remember saying better, however yoh can check my impressions at post#229. Cheers.




Nice impression. Thanks


----------



## hotdogseller

Picked up flysweeps old H10, excited to get it


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> Do you guys have any recommendation for DAC.


 
 I'll be able to answer that question with more particulars soon. I already have the Aune S16 which is really a great performer and I'm getting the Gustard X12 within the week.


----------



## RedBull

hotdogseller said:


> Picked up flysweeps old H10, excited to get it


 
  
 Please let us know your finding.


----------



## natra084

I heard thet the Gustard X12 it's mor clinical and thet the x9 is more musical


----------



## swannie007

And the x10 is just right! Reminds me of Goldilocks and the three bears!


----------



## Schopenhauer

swannie007 said:


> I came close, but now the X10/H10 combo has at least 12 hours burn-in and it is sounding decidedly better. Right now I prefer it with the AKG 701's over the 400i's. More open sound stage and a brighter sound, which I like. Tomorrow I will try the Beyer T90's once the combo has burned-in overnight.



swannie: How's the X10 coming along? Any more improvement? 


EDIT: Somehow I missed your post immediately above! You say the X10 is "just right", so I take it things are going well.


----------



## hotdogseller

my phone keeps autocorrecting 'gustard' to 'mustard'


----------



## Schopenhauer

Your phone needs to catch up, as it were.


----------



## swannie007

schopenhauer said:


> swannie007 said:
> 
> 
> > I came close, but now the X10/H10 combo has at least 12 hours burn-in and it is sounding decidedly better. Right now I prefer it with the AKG 701's over the 400i's. More open sound stage and a brighter sound, which I like. Tomorrow I will try the Beyer T90's once the combo has burned-in overnight.
> ...


 

 Yea, much better thanks. I guess it needed a few more hours and needed to settle in a bit. I am enjoying it quite a bit and it is one of my top three stacks/combos. I still very much enjoy my Rotel RDD-06 DAC/ Cayin HA-1A combo(maybe still my favourite) as well as my Breeze Audio DAC/Amp combo(amazing value for the performance!). I am very fortunate to have three other stack/combos and enjoy them a lot as well but they are a step down from the first three I mentioned. Listening to my Rotel/Cayin combo as I type this and it seems to be able to retrieve and resolve the micro detail a bit better than the Gustard combo but the difference is very small and I could live quite happily with the Gustard combo if it were the only one I had. I change around between my stacks quite a bit and enjoy all of them. I would happily recommend the Gustard combo to anyone as it is very "musical" and non fatiguing and can be enjoyed for hours without ear ache. I find the Rotel/Cayin combo has a clearer window into the music, if that makes any sense.  
 Happy holidays from Oz.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> I'll be able to answer that question with more particulars soon. I already have the Aune S16 which is really a great performer and I'm getting the Gustard X12 within the week.


 

 Looking forward to your insight into the X12. Happy holidays my friend. Cheers, Swannie.


----------



## natra084

last question. How much power this amplifier put out 300om


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Looking forward to your insight into the X12. Happy holidays my friend. Cheers, Swannie.




A merry belated Christmas to you. The X12 just cleared customs in Cincinnati OH, so I will have it before new years. I've been getting more info from Gustard that the X12 is a refinement of the ESS chip implementation.... More evolutionary than revolutionary. Should make for an interesting audio new years.


----------



## doco

mine arrived today and i just got off work. my initial impressions with this amp using the hd650 and ODAC and +6db settings are very impressive! it's not as fast as using a 5998 tube but almost there. bass doesn't hit quite as hard either but almost there also. vocals aren't a bit forward as i would like but that might change with burn-in. i most likely won't post any more impressions as i have a bifrost uber gen 2 usb arriving tomorrow and later the he-560 next week. maybe later i'll test using the darkvoice 336se as a preamp after a few days.
  
 edit: did +18 gain and much much better.


----------



## elwappo99

doco said:


> mine arrived today and i just got off work. my initial impressions with this amp using the hd650 and ODAC and +6db settings are very impressive! it's not as fast as using a 5998 tube but almost there. bass doesn't hit quite as hard either but almost there also. vocals aren't a bit forward as i would like but that might change with burn-in. i most likely won't post any more impressions as i have a* bifrost uber gen 2 usb arriving tomorrow and later the he-560 next week.* maybe later i'll test using the darkvoice 336se as a preamp after a few days.
> 
> edit: did +18 gain and much much better.


 
  
 Soooo a good week ahead for you?
  
  
  
 Look forward to hear your comparison to the Bifrost, since that's a more common DAC.


----------



## Schopenhauer

Just a heads up to anyone with an ALO Green Line Audeze headphone cable hoping to use it with the H10. I finally managed to hook up my H10 tonight (I'm been at my parents' for Winter break). But when I tried to plug in my Paradox Slants with the Green Line, the terminator wouldn't fit since the jack is recessed between those two lips. To be fair, the ALO 1/4" terminator is ginormous. Perhaps there was a reason for making it so; just as perhaps there was a reason for making the H10's jack recessed. It blows, however, since I _just _got the Green Line to use with the Slants. I should have done more research. Curious to see if this is a common complaint re: the Green Line.


----------



## lukeap69

Thanks for the heads up. Can you share photos of the plug and when plugged in?


----------



## swannie007

schopenhauer said:


> Just a heads up to anyone with an ALO Green Line Audeze headphone cable hoping to use it with the H10. I finally managed to hook up my H10 tonight (I'm been at my parents' for Winter break). But when I tried to plug in my Paradox Slants with the Green Line, the terminator wouldn't fit since the jack is recessed between those two lips. To be fair, the ALO 1/4" terminator is ginormous. Perhaps there was a reason for making it so; just as perhaps there was a reason for making the H10's jack recessed. It blows, however, since I _just _got the Green Line to use with the Slants. I should have done more research. Curious to see if this is a common complaint re: the Green Line.


 

 I suspect that was an oversight on Gustards' part as the space around the headphone jack is quite limited due to it's recessed location. Sorry about your misfortune but I will keep that in mind with future cable purchases. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Schopenhauer

lukeap69 said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Can you share photos of the plug and when plugged in?


 

 The Green Line 1/4" terminator.
  

 The Green Line on the bottom with the Audeze stock cable 1/4" terminator.
  

 The Green Line "plugged in".


swannie007 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > Just a heads up to anyone with an ALO Green Line Audeze headphone cable hoping to use it with the H10. I finally managed to hook up my H10 tonight (I'm been at my parents' for Winter break). But when I tried to plug in my Paradox Slants with the Green Line, the terminator wouldn't fit since the jack is recessed between those two lips. To be fair, the ALO 1/4" terminator is ginormous. Perhaps there was a reason for making it so; just as perhaps there was a reason for making the H10's jack recessed. It blows, however, since I _just _got the Green Line to use with the Slants. I should have done more research. Curious to see if this is a common complaint re: the Green Line.
> ...


 
 It seems like the recessed jack is purely aesthetic. And I agree with the decision aesthetically: The recessed line across the front nicely offsets the oversized volume knob. But functionally, it doesn't seem like the best choice.


----------



## lukeap69

schopenhauer said:


> The Green Line 1/4" terminator.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the pics. I can see now what the problem is. I didn't realise that the Alo plug is large. And yes, the H10 should have thought about the restriction the socket's location can create. I should be careful in buying new cables. Cheers.


----------



## natra084

Does anybody know how much Power this amplifier puts out!


----------



## Schopenhauer

natra084 said:


> Does anybody know how much Power this amplifier puts out!


 
 Output power: 570 mW (600 ohm load); 2200 mW (100 ohms); 2700 mW (50 ohms); 2000 mW (32 ohms); 1000 mW (16 ohms). No idea for 300 mW. Probably a lot.


----------



## natra084

Wow that's great I wonder how much it puts out in 300 ohms


----------



## Schopenhauer

Sorry, I meant 300Ohms. I don't know how much power at 300Ohms. Probably a lot.


----------



## elwappo99

schopenhauer said:


> The Green Line 1/4" terminator.
> 
> 
> The Green Line on the bottom with the Audeze stock cable 1/4" terminator.
> ...


 
  
 Ouch that's a total bummer. Lots of amplifiers have a bit of a recessed socket like that. I'm not sure why ALO would make such a large cosmetic sleeve. I'd reterminate that, or if you haven't before, I'd ask ALO to fix it. 
  
 You could ask them to make you an adapter, but their prices ..... wow 100 bucks for wire between two $5 connectors.... ouch


----------



## Schopenhauer

elwappo99 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > The Green Line 1/4" terminator.
> ...


 
 I emailed ALO yesterday to ask if they had an alternative 1/4" termination, but haven't heard back yet. If there's nothing to be done about it, I'll have to return the cable, I suppose. Which is a shame because it seems durable, is very flexible with low memory and has good functionality. Oh well. 
  


> You could ask them to make you an adapter, but their prices ..... wow 100 bucks for wire between two $5 connectors.... ouch


 
 lol. Yeah, it's slightly ridonkulous.


----------



## elwappo99

> Originally Posted by *Schopenhauer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I emailed ALO yesterday to ask if they had an alternative 1/4" termination, but haven't heard back yet. If there's nothing to be done about it, I'll have to return the cable, I suppose. Which is a shame because it seems durable, is very flexible with low memory and has good functionality. Oh well.


 
  
 If you want to keep it, they should easily reterminate it for you to a slimmer jack. Takes less than 5 minutes to do.


----------



## Schopenhauer

elwappo99 said:


> > Originally Posted by *Schopenhauer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> >
> > I emailed ALO yesterday to ask if they had an alternative 1/4" termination, but haven't heard back yet. If there's nothing to be done about it, I'll have to return the cable, I suppose. Which is a shame because it seems durable, is very flexible with low memory and has good functionality. Oh well.
> 
> ...


 
 That's certainly my preference. Although I don't want to pay $100 for it. If they reterminate the one I got with the cable purchase, then we'd be green.


----------



## elwappo99

schopenhauer said:


> That's certainly my preference. Although I don't want to pay $100 for it. If they reterminate the one I got with the cable purchase, then we'd be green.


 
  
 Tbh, that's a hefty price for a cable. If they aren't interested in reterminating, I wouldn't hesitate to ask them for a refund. I don't see any reason for you to worry


----------



## Schopenhauer

elwappo99 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > [CONTENTEMBED=/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/315#post_11164578 layout=inline] [/CONTENTEMBED]
> ...



I completely agree. Ordinarily, I'd never pay that much for a cable. But ALO lured me in with a 6 month payment plan. Lol. With each individual payment at right around $50, it seemed relatively inexpensive. Of course, that's their angle. Needless to say, if they don't offer a retermination, I'll ask for a full refund.


----------



## Schopenhauer

hotdogseller said:


> Picked up flysweeps old H10, excited to get it


 
 I'm anxious to hear your impressions. Especially re: how the H10 compares to the Lyr (or do you have the Lyr 2?).


----------



## Schopenhauer

swannie007 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > swannie007 said:
> ...


 
 I'm glad to hear it! The HA-1A is a very attractive amp; so is the HA-3, although I can hardly find any impressions on it. I recently got the C5 and am truly astounded that a portable amp can accomplish what it does with a variety of hard to drive headphones. I understand what you mean by "'musical and non-fatiguing" and offering "a clearer window into the music". The C5 has a similar signature: I put about 12 hours on it in one day with the Alpha Dogs and didn't wear out. By the time 6am rolled around it was time to force myself to bed, I still wanted to listen. Perhaps I should look into the HA-1A. Pollychen offers it at a great price.


----------



## Schopenhauer

lukeap69 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > I've got an Alpha Dog on the way! After I've spent some time with them -- psychoacoustic burn-in etc. -- with a number of different amps, I'll post my impression of the Alpha Dog + H10 pairing.
> ...


 
 I began listening to the Alpha Dogs + H10 pairing tonight after spending several days and nights with the the Alpha Dogs + Cayin C5 exclusively. My initial impressions are that these pair excellently, with a marked increase in clarity and SPL integrity (if that makes any sense? do I mean "slam"? "impact"?) from the C5. Because the Alpha Dogs are, to my ears, tonally similar to the HE-500s, I expect very good things. More to come.


----------



## lukeap69

That just confirms that H10 is very good with planars. You must be having a blast with your toys right now.


----------



## Schopenhauer

lukeap69 said:


> That just confirms that H10 is very good with planars. You must be having a blast with your toys right now.


 
 The blast can be measured in megatons. I feel like the Paradox Slants and Alpha Dogs are almost the closed back mirror images of the LCD-2F and HE-500 respectively. Although the Alphas give more detail than the HiFiMANs. I can definitely endorse the H10 (H!0? I almost want to start stylizing its name. but that's a qwerty artifact.) as a planar headamp. But that has to be taken with a grain of salt since I own only planars. Save the Amperior which I've been too afraid to plug in. Also I don't currently have a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter.


----------



## lukeap69

I think the H10 is a hell of an amp. At this price point, it will be very difficult to beat. My AKG Q701 also sings with it (I don't think it pairs well with the C5 though). It seems it does well with the HD650 as well. It wouldn't be my end amp for my HD800 but it also drives it very good. I believe this is one of the most versatile headamp around. And very reasonably priced as well.


----------



## Schopenhauer

An update on the cable situation. I emailed ALO asking whether they had a less robust 1/4" terminator, and then sent a follow-up with the photo showing the incomplete entry into the H10. Didn't hear anything back. Sent a second email early this morning asking if they'd received either of my previous emails. Didn't hear anything back. Requested an RMA. It was approved a little under an hour ago. So someone is manning the internets over there, but it seems like there's a blindspot at the Help Desk. Of course, it's also a busy time of year.


----------



## stuartmc

The Gustard X12 has landed. I've been burning it in with my Purist Audio disc all day and will give it a first listen tonight. Cosmetically, it's a perfect match for the H10 though several inches more depth.


----------



## Zakin

I'll be interested to hear your findings, especially against the new Aune S16 Stuart. The middle range DAC market just continues to get more interesting.


----------



## lukeap69

stuartmc said:


> The Gustard X12 has landed. I've been burning it in with my Purist Audio disc all day and will give it a first listen tonight. Cosmetically, it's a perfect match for the H10 though several inches more depth.


 
 Well, that's a nice new year present for yourself! Really interested in your impression and comparison with the Aune...


----------



## swannie007

Yea Schopenhauer, the HA-1A is a damn fine amp and one I enjoy it a lot and it seems to pair well with all of the dacs I have on hand and the HA-2i is also a fine little ss amp and it is a looker as well, looks like it cost a lot more, and sounds like it too!
 Back to the Gustard combo (H10/X10) they just seem to get a little better each day and they are my go-to combo at the moment and it is a subconscious thing, I sit down at my desk/listening station and automatically turn them on and plug a set of cans in(most often the 400i's but also quite often the T90's and Q701's) and away I go to a happy place. Looking forward to Stuarts' thoughts on the X12 vs the Aune S16, should be quite interesting. Come on Stu, give us the scoop!
 By the way, a Happy New Years to all, may 2015 be filled with many hours of listening bliss! Cheers, Swannie.


----------



## swannie007

> Oops, forget to mention that the H10/X10 combo gives one a helluva lot of bang for the buck.


----------



## lukeap69

I'm listening to Nirvana Unplugged with my NFB-1 (2015)>H10>HD800 at the moment. It's either the H10 is still getting better or my brain is being tuned/accustomed with this combo. I like the acoustic guitar sounds on this amp. The timbre just inviting. I find this combo very musical. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I thought only my Oppo PM-2 is musical... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, I'm starting to appreciate the brilliant soundstage and imaging of the HD800 more and more.


----------



## stuartmc

Ok, OK fellahs... I hate to do this piecemeal, but I think it's now safe to give some brief preliminaries. My H10 break-in experience has me a bit wary, but what the heck, when things are sounding good and will only get better, there is really no flag on the play.

With 13 hours in, this DAC is showing great promise. The first thing to impress me is the dynamics. Call it lively, slam, jump factor, or a punch in the face that doesn't hurt, ha love that one, this DAC has got it. That doesn't really surprise me given the Gustard approach to power supplies. The thing sports the same dual transformers and serious capacitor bank as the H10. In this case, the transformers do separate duty for digital and analog stages.


----------



## stuartmc

We also have a new discrete voltage regulator stage. Add these up and throw in the ESS Sabre chip and I guess that's a good prescription for dynamic energy. The really good sign is that there doesn't seem to be any annoying treble harshness with this energy. It's a wee bit hard, but not harsh. It's what I have come to expect when gear is still breaking in, so I'm very encouraged. The stage is very spacious with good imaging, easily the equal of the Aune at this point. I haven't set up for direct A-B of the two yet, so I'm going on memory here. The low bass is very well controlled with the X12, perhaps not yet quite as extended as the Aune, but definitely more defined and I mean pitch definition. I suspect the sub bass will fill in with break in time.


----------



## stuartmc

The Aune S16 is extraordinarily smooth with a very natural ease to things and lots of air around images. I'm not quite there with the X12. The images seem a little less cylindrical and less air and space around them. I'm about 90% sure it will get there because it has already improved in the few hours I've been listening.

I'll tell you what though, I'm really liking the tonality of the X12. The horns have more bite and blatt and sound more like they are made of pure metal instead of some funky ceramic/metal amalgam.
I'm getting the same effect with both acoustic and electric guitars... Just great tone. I think it may be because I'm hearing more of the leading edge, the initial pluck instead of more weighting given to the following bloom and resonance propagation of the note. Maybe the Aune is a little too polite here. It's too early to say for sure, but perhaps later A-B's will help solidify my impressions. 

Hey, see what you guys have done?! It's past my bedtime and this was supposed to be very brief... Ha ha, nighty night.


----------



## lukeap69

@stuartmc did you say acoustic guitar? hey, you got me more interested there. Perhaps you can start a new thread dedicated to the X12? I'm sure more head-fiers would be interested.


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> @stuartmc did you say acoustic guitar? hey, you got me more interested there. Perhaps you can start a new thread dedicated to the X12? I'm sure more head-fiers would be interested.


 
  
 Oh yes, I am very much saying acoustic guitar.  I have Classical guitar music from the likes of Segovia and Williams, Spanish Guitar stuff from Segovia, Strunz and Farah and  Ottmar Liebert and then every single Acoustic Alchemy album.  I really love the stuff and its my go to source when I'm trying to get a handle on tonality as well as the balance between pluck, bloom and decay.
  
 I think starting a new thread on the X12 probably would be the right thing to do. I shouldn't be cluttering up the H10 thread with this discussion, but I just can't help myself.  Listening this evening after 16 more hours of breakin is confirming many of my initial impressions, including my expectation that further breakin would flesh out the sub bass, relieve some of the hardness and put a little more air around things.  Im going to give it another full day before I do more critical A-B comparisons to the Aune. Since both units have balanced out, it makes comparisons in DAC mode running into the H10, that much easier and relevant.  I am not even considering the usb side of things since I don't use it all and of course I can't compare the onboard headphone amp of the Aune to the X12, since the X12 doesn't have one.  The latter would be a waste of time anyway, because I have already determined that the Aune's headamp is adequate, but nowhere near as good as using the H10 with it.  So it's mano a mano, DAC to DAC only.


----------



## Joong

I am looking forward to reading your new thread for Gustard X12 Dac.
 Happy new year everybody.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Oh yes, I am very much saying acoustic guitar.  I have Classical guitar music from the likes of Segovia and Williams, Spanish Guitar stuff from Segovia, Strunz and Farah and  Ottmar Liebert and then every single Acoustic Alchemy album.  I really love the stuff and its my go to source when I'm trying to get a handle on tonality as well as the balance between pluck, bloom and decay.
> 
> I think starting a new thread on the X12 probably would be the right thing to do. I shouldn't be cluttering up the H10 thread with this discussion, but I just can't help myself.  Listening this evening after 16 more hours of breakin is confirming many of my initial impressions, including my expectation that further breakin would flesh out the sub bass, relieve some of the hardness and put a little more air around things.  Im going to give it another full day before I do more critical A-B comparisons to the Aune. Since both units have balanced out, it makes comparisons in DAC mode running into the H10, that much easier and relevant.  I am not even considering the usb side of things since I don't use it all and of course I can't compare the onboard headphone amp of the Aune to the X12, since the X12 doesn't have one.  The latter would be a waste of time anyway, because I have already determined that the Aune's headamp is adequate, but nowhere near as good as using the H10 with it.  So it's mano a mano, DAC to DAC only.


 

 Interesting insights so far Stu. I am also a huge guitar music fan and you reminded me about Acoustic Alchemy. I am listening to their American English album as I type this and it sounds so amazing with the H10/X10 combo with the 400i's. I had almost forgotten about them as I listen to so many other guitarists all the time, definitely my favourite type of music with female vocals a close second and the Gustard stack does such a magnificent job with both genres being able to retrieve the micro dynamics of the music and present it in all its glory. I can't tear myself away from this gear even to go for a motorcycle ride, and that's saying something!Look forward to your A/B compare of the X12 and S16.
 Happy New Year to all.


----------



## stuartmc

Swannie me boy, we must be brothers from a different mother. I'm listening to AA, Blue Chip right now with my modded HE-400i through my own Gustard stack. Oh my "Hearts in Chains" always slays me. Happy New year all. May 2015 be the year of beautiful music, literally and figuratively.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Swannie me boy, we must be brothers from a different mother. I'm listening to AA, Blue Chip right now with my modded HE-400i through my own Gustard stack. Oh my "Hearts in Chains" always slays me. Happy New year all. May 2015 be the year of beautiful music, literally and figuratively.


 

 Stu, my good man, you are truly a lost brother and you are costing me money as I had to go to iTunes and download "Hearts in Chains" as I did not have it. Spectacular! I am now listening to "Balad for Kay", another beautiful piece by them. 
 Damn, this Gustard combo just gets better and better. I am listening to the H10/X10 stack with a pair of headphones that I made myself from bits and pieces sourced all over the world, Canadian drivers, American aluminium cups and bracket/swivel assemblies as well as headband and leather cover for same and a nice silver cable with a good connector. They sound awesome, even if I say so myself, kind of a beefed up and mature Q701 would sound if there were no cost constraints in its manufacture. Lovely quick bass, clear breezy midrange and a very airy top end, probably my best all-round headphones and all assembled by yours truly! Another guitarist you must listen to if you are not familiar with him is Armik, as well as Benise(very good), Blake Aaron, Bruce Mathiska(an Aussie), Bruce Mckenzie, Bryan Lubeck, Chris Standring, Chuck Loeb, Coco Montoya, David P Stevens, Doc Powell, Drew Davidsen, Duke Robillard, Eric Essix, Erja Lyytinen, Govi, Grant Geissman, Jeff Golub, Jay Soto, Jim Stubblefield, Jimmy Thackery, Joanne Shaw Taylor, Joe Grusheky, Kevin Laliberte, Kirk Fletcher, Laurie Morvan, Lawson Rollins, Magic Slim and the Teardrops,  Matt Marshak, Michael Burkes, Michael O Neill, Michael Vince, Monster Mike Welch, The Nimmo Brothers, Paul Brown, Paul Jackson Jr., Peter Busboom, Peter White, Ralf Illenberger, Ray Bonneville, Rob Tardik and on and on...........Yea, I do like guitar music! So, put those in your pipe and smoke em. Should keep you busy for a while listening to your new X12 and helping with your comparison with the S16! Cheers.


----------



## FlySweep

@swannie007 & @stuartmc .. it seems both of you have dipped into my Tidal/Google Play AA library.. LOL.. looks like we all listen to quite a few of the same stuff.. very cool!
  
 I recommend Marilyn Mazur's "Flamingo Sky," if you haven't checked it out already.. impeccably recorded, so I sense it'll sing with the Gustard stack.  As others have said, I can't recommend the 560 w/ the H10 enough.. superb combination there, for sure.  The biggest thing for me is that the H10 offers a sense of delicacy across the entire freq. range (with ALL types of music) that I found lacking with many other SS amps I've heard..


----------



## swannie007

Hey FlySweep, Thanks for the heads up on Marilyn Mazur, will check it out. Yup, the H10/X10 does a great job of digging out those hidden details in the music. Your description of a sense of delicacy in the music is spot on.Enjoy.


----------



## natra084

Hi guys I really need some help I bought Violectric V200 a couple of weeks ago and I have the Sennheiser HD650s and for me that combination what's too warm so I send that the V200 back.
 All I really don't know what to buy I've looked at the GUSTARD H10 and I looked at these iFi products. For the most part I listen to YouTube videos movies sometimes MP3s what should I buy do I really need the micro with its features Will it be able to do any difference when I watch YouTube videos or movies or is that nano sufficient. Or should I just buy the nano and just use it as a DAC or Will the micro be able to power my HD650 well.
 When I returned the V200 then I bought amp so I can use for now I bought in bravo ocean and this amplifier is a tube amplifier but it doesn't sound as a tube amplifier is very detailed smooth but the base is very loose it isn't at all warm sounding in my opinion.
 So which amplifier that you guys think should fit me well.


----------



## zilch0md

^ I know at least one H10 owner in this thread who has had the V200 and could tell you which is warmer...


----------



## Lorspeaker

natra084 said:


> Hi guys I really need some help I bought Violectric V200 a couple of weeks ago and I have the Sennheiser HD650s and for me that combination what's too warm so I send that the V200 back.
> All I really don't know what to buy I've looked at the GUSTARD H10 and I looked at these iFi products. For the most part I listen to YouTube videos movies sometimes MP3s what should I buy do I really need the micro with its features Will it be able to do any difference when I watch YouTube videos or movies or is that nano sufficient. Or should I just buy the nano and just use it as a DAC or Will the micro be able to power my HD650 well.
> When I returned the V200 then I bought amp so I can use for now I bought in bravo ocean and this amplifier is a tube amplifier but it doesn't sound as a tube amplifier is very detailed smooth but the base is very loose it isn't at all warm sounding in my opinion.
> So which amplifier that you guys think should fit me well.


 
  
  
 if u are watching youtubes/mp3s...get a used Dacport or DacportLX on the cheap..
 clean clear powerful..will control the HD650 sufficiently.
 ( dacportLX is less grainy than the dacport...but volume control is thru your laptop music control)


----------



## crazylegs

Got my Gustard H10 today.
  
 After reading everyone's raving review and first impression of this AMP, i was moved enough to pull the trigger and purchase this amp.  I purchased my H10 on ebay from *pollychen0306.*
 I was amazed how quickly i got it. Bought on Sunday 28th.  Polly shipped it on Wednesday, and got it today.  I probably would've  received it sooner if it wasn't for the holiday.   From China to Indiana USA in 3.5 days..!!  Highly recommended ebayer.!
 
  
 My previous setup:
  
 - Fiio E9  amp.
 - On board DAC from an Asus x99 motherboard (24bit/192khz). Before everyone laughs, this motherboard has IMO one of the best onboard DACs i've ever heard!  Good enough that i pulled out my creative xfi sound card.
 - MusicBee (2.5.5478) with DSD patch. WASAPI out.
 - +500mb (FLAC, ALAC, DSD64-DSD128, WAV and mp3@320) music.
 - AKG k702 headphones.
  
 New upgraded setup.
  
 - Gustard H10 amp
 - SMSL M8 DAC (Sabre 32bit ES9018)  Let me tell ya, this DAC is awesome! It plays really well with the Gustard.
 - AKG k702  (cant decide to upgrade between the  AKG k712 pro, Sennheiser HD 700).
  
 First impression... FREAKING WOW..!
 Upon opening the box, first thing i notice was the size and weight.  In comparison to my Fiio E9, this thing is twice as wide and 10 times heavier.  Very well built, and it definitely looks and feels highend.  
  
 How it sounds:
 IMO the AKG k702 sounded best at the adjusted +12db gain.  The most profound difference from the E9 was how warm the Gustard sounds in comparison. IMO the E9 sounds bright and clear with the K702.  On the other hand, the H10 sounds warm, clean and natural.  it took my ears about 3hrs to adjust to the Gustard H10. It completely changed my perception of the k702.  
  
 What is this thing i'm hearing?  No it can't be, could this be bass coming from the k702?  Yup, it is! It completely changed the way my AKG sounded. The E9 left me with a void missing bass and more depth from the k702.  I was shopping around for new headphones.  Here i was with my finger on the buy button getting ready to pull the trigger on the HD 700.  Now after hearing the H10 with the k702 im having second thoughts. I wanted a set of cans that had the clarity of k702.  With the H10, it is all that and then some. I can hear a more natural sound with the right amount of bass and depth.  Now im reading up on the k712 pro.  LOL im hooked.!    It has only been 6hrs. Could this sound any better..?  I don't know.  Ill post part two later..  I'm going to go listen to more music.
  
 Later..!


----------



## stuartmc

Welcome aboard Crazylegs. Glad you are enjoying the H10 as much as the rest of us. Get about another 25 to 50 hours on it and then get back to us... As I have said before, if you're liking the cake now, just wait till the frosting comes in.


----------



## swannie007

Welocome to the club Crazylegs. You will fall in love with the H10 in short order. Your next step is to add the X10 or X12 dac and you will be more impressed. They are made to work together very well. Last night I pulled the trigger on the Gustard U12 as my USB is pretty noisy and the write ups on the U12 are very encouraging, I will report back once I have received the U12 and connected it to the rest of the Gustard gear. That will be at the end of the month as I go back to work tomorrow and will be away for 19 days. Will miss my toys!
 By the way Crazylegs, I use my Q701's with the Gustard gear and I love the sound, clear and non fatiguing with honest bass.


----------



## lukeap69

Swannie, it seems you are building a Gustard system.  Nice touch.

Crazylegs, there are other cans you can think about and consider, HE-560, Alpha Prime and Beyer T1 which is 899 at buysonic right now. Enjoy.


----------



## Schopenhauer

crazylegs said:


> Got my Gustard H10 today.
> 
> After reading everyone's raving review and first impression of this AMP, i was moved enough to pull the trigger and purchase this amp.  I purchased my H10 on ebay from *pollychen0306.*
> I was amazed how quickly i got it. Bought on Sunday 28th.  Polly shipped it on Wednesday, and got it today.  I probably would've  received it sooner if it wasn't for the holiday.   From China to Indiana USA in 3.5 days..!!  Highly recommended ebayer.!
> ...


 
 Welcome, crazylegs! It's good to see a fellow Hoosier on here. It doesn't seem like there are very many of us on here. And congrats on the H10! It's a very special amp.


----------



## No_One411

schopenhauer said:


> Welcome, crazylegs! It's good to see a fellow Hoosier on here. It doesn't seem like there are very many of us on here. And congrats on the H10! It's a very special amp.


 
 Well, I'm originally from the Bay Area, but I studied at Rose-Hulman in Terre Haute, IN.


----------



## natra084

crazylegs said:


> Got my Gustard H10 today.
> 
> After reading everyone's raving review and first impression of this AMP, i was moved enough to pull the trigger and purchase this amp.  I purchased my H10 on ebay from *[COLOR=0000CC]pollychen0306.[/color]*
> 
> ...




what is the H10 warm sounding


----------



## crazylegs

stuartmc said:


> Welcome aboard Crazylegs. Glad you are enjoying the H10 as much as the rest of us. Get about another 25 to 50 hours on it and then get back to us... As I have said before, if you're liking the cake now, just wait till the frosting comes in.


 
  
 Wow.. i just couldn't imagine this sounding better..  
  
  


swannie007 said:


> Welocome to the club Crazylegs. You will fall in love with the H10 in short order. Your next step is to add the X10 or X12 dac and you will be more impressed. They are made to work together very well. Last night I pulled the trigger on the Gustard U12 as my USB is pretty noisy and the write ups on the U12 are very encouraging, I will report back once I have received the U12 and connected it to the rest of the Gustard gear. That will be at the end of the month as I go back to work tomorrow and will be away for 19 days. Will miss my toys!
> By the way Crazylegs, I use my Q701's with the Gustard gear and I love the sound, clear and non fatiguing with honest bass.


 
  
 Prior of purchasing the H10 i was researching a good dac to match. The X12/H10 combo would have just been too expensive of a combo that i wanted to take a gamble on. I also have no equipment with balanced inputs/output. I did find and alternative to the X12 DAC and seems to work perfectly well with the H10.  The SMSL M8.  Seems to use the same exact chipset as all the highend chineese made SABRE32 DAC without the added balanced connections/hdmi etc. After further investigation, i also noticed they all use the same drivers. I'm really confident that they will sound close , if not identical.  With the added savings you could use that towards taking the wife out on a date.  Take it from me, it soften the blow when i told her i blew  almost $1000 on audio equipment for the office.  LOL
  
 Seriously,  The SMSL M8 is awesome. I bought mine from Amazon with prime shipping. I even used an Amazon coupon so it made it even a bigger bargain for me. heheehhe
  


lukeap69 said:


> Swannie, it seems you are building a Gustard system.  Nice touch.
> 
> Crazylegs, there are other cans you can think about and consider, HE-560, Alpha Prime and Beyer T1 which is 899 at buysonic right now. Enjoy.


 
 Man i would love to listen to them..  My budget is only allowing me $400 - $500 tops..    the HE-560 looks awesome...!
  


schopenhauer said:


> Welcome, crazylegs! It's good to see a fellow Hoosier on here. It doesn't seem like there are very many of us on here. And congrats on the H10! It's a very special amp.


 
  
 Go  IU..!!  lol
  


natra084 said:


> what is the H10 warm sounding


 
  
 Best way to describe the warm sound.  taken from the Head-fi glossary.
  
*Warm* - Good bass, adequate low frequencies, adequate fundamentals relative to harmonics. Not thin. Also excessive bass or mid bass. Also, pleasantly spacious, with adequate reverberation at low frequencies. Also see Rich, Round. Warm highs means sweet highs.
  
 With the AKG702 the bass  isn't excessive as we all know the k702 lacks bass.  Its more profound with this amp VS my older Fiio e9.


----------



## natra084

crazylegs said:


> Wow.. i just couldn't imagine this sounding better..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 ok


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Stu, my good man, you are truly a lost brother and you are costing me money as I had to go to iTunes and download "Hearts in Chains" as I did not have it. Spectacular! I am now listening to "Balad for Kay", another beautiful piece by them.
> Damn, this Gustard combo just gets better and better. I am listening to the H10/X10 stack with a pair of headphones that I made myself from bits and pieces sourced all over the world, Canadian drivers, American aluminium cups and bracket/swivel assemblies as well as headband and leather cover for same and a nice silver cable with a good connector. They sound awesome, even if I say so myself, kind of a beefed up and mature Q701 would sound if there were no cost constraints in its manufacture. Lovely quick bass, clear breezy midrange and a very airy top end, probably my best all-round headphones and all assembled by yours truly! Another guitarist you must listen to if you are not familiar with him is Armik, as well as Benise(very good), Blake Aaron, Bruce Mathiska(an Aussie), Bruce Mckenzie, Bryan Lubeck, Chris Standring, Chuck Loeb, Coco Montoya, David P Stevens, Doc Powell, Drew Davidsen, Duke Robillard, Eric Essix, Erja Lyytinen, Govi, Grant Geissman, Jeff Golub, Jay Soto, Jim Stubblefield, Jimmy Thackery, Joanne Shaw Taylor, Joe Grusheky, Kevin Laliberte, Kirk Fletcher, Laurie Morvan, Lawson Rollins, Magic Slim and the Teardrops,  Matt Marshak, Michael Burkes, Michael O Neill, Michael Vince, Monster Mike Welch, The Nimmo Brothers, Paul Brown, Paul Jackson Jr., Peter Busboom, Peter White, Ralf Illenberger, Ray Bonneville, Rob Tardik and on and on...........Yea, I do like guitar music! So, put those in your pipe and smoke em. Should keep you busy for a while listening to your new X12 and helping with your comparison with the S16! Cheers.


 
 Holy smokes, that's a whole lot of acoustic guitar stuff for me to explore. I only have three on your list, so I'd better get cracking!


----------



## stuartmc

flysweep said:


> @swannie007 & @stuartmc .. it seems both of you have dipped into my Tidal/Google Play AA library.. LOL.. looks like we all listen to quite a few of the same stuff.. very cool!
> 
> I recommend Marilyn Mazur's "Flamingo Sky," if you haven't checked it out already.. impeccably recorded, so I sense it'll sing with the Gustard stack.  As others have said, I can't recommend the 560 w/ the H10 enough.. superb combination there, for sure.  The biggest thing for me is that the H10 offers a sense of delicacy across the entire freq. range (with ALL types of music) that I found lacking with many other SS amps I've heard..


 
 Thanks for the Marilyn tip. That was a well placed curve ball, no...I think it was a cutter.  Flamingo Sky is eclectic, superbly recorded stuff. My goodness, Marilyn reminds me of Marta Gomez at one moment, Patricia Barber another and then "Eletelephony" is channeling Zappa! What a feast for the ears.


----------



## zilch0md

That turned out to be about a two-track album for my taste, but yes, it's very well recorded.  (There's no accounting for my poor taste.)


----------



## stuartmc

> Prior of purchasing the H10 i was researching a good dac to match. The X12/H10 combo would have just been too expensive of a combo that i wanted to take a gamble on. I also have no equipment with balanced inputs/output. I did find and alternative to the X12 DAC and seems to work perfectly well with the H10.  The SMSL M8.  Seems to use the same exact chipset as all the highend chineese made SABRE32 DAC without the added balanced connections/hdmi etc. After further investigation, i also noticed they all use the same drivers. I'm really confident that they will sound close , if not identical.  With the added savings you could use that towards taking the wife out on a date.  Take it from me, it soften the blow when i told her i blew  almost $1000 on audio equipment for the office.  LOL


 
 I'm sure the M8 is quite a deal. I have one of SMSL's portable headphone amps, the SAP-5, and it's quite the performer for such a budget price. I probably don't need to state the obvious, but there is no "free lunch" in higher-end audio. The law of diminishing returns is fully in play, so you have to decide if the much more expensive lunch has a taste improvement that is commensurate with the price.  The M8 may have hit the sweet spot for many and that's a very good thing.  
  
 I would have to disagree, however,  that the Chinese dacs that use the Sabre ES9018 all sound close, if not identical.  The Sabre chip happens to have quite a following, but it is apparently one of the most difficult to properly implement. There are some sabre based dacs that sound way too hard edged and flat to me, some that are pretty decent and a few that are amazing.  Why is this?  According to ESS technology, the chip is so revealing of detail that you will hear all that is wrong with the implementation. The application notes from ESS are pretty daunting, but they don't tell even half the story. Of the many factors that make for a good implementation of the chip, the few that most engineers/designers harp on are eliminating crosstalk between the data and the phase noise of the system clock, the system ground plane, and the power supply.  To do these things really really right generally requires additional, more expensive parts and more real estate to fit them in.  It starts with a PCB that must be meticulously laid out, a very robust and well regulated power supply that isolates the digital and analog stages as much as possible and then keeps going until the cost/benefit ratio gets way out of whack.  Take a look at some of the more highly regarded Chinese Sabre dacs, like those from Audio-gd, Matrix and Yulong. When you look at the insides, the most obvious thing you will see is the robust, isolated power supply - massive transformer(s), large capacitors and low noise voltage regulators.  I will add the Gustard DACs to this list because they too go all in on the power supply side, perhaps only rivaled by Audio-gd in this respect.  
  
 Bottom line is how happy you are with the sound you're getting. At the end of the day, that's all that really matters. In my many years of fooling with the high-end stuff, I have learned two things that have added to my peace and enjoyment. If I had learned them earlier, I might not have thrown in the towel and would still be actively published. Those two things are:
  
*1. Sometimes ignorance IS bliss. * If you are happy with what you are hearing and don't think anything could sound appreciably better, stay right there. We are both intellectually and emotionally connected to music (sometimes spiritually too).  If you start thinking that you are missing something and it could be much better, it will diminish your enjoyment exponentially - the proverbial self-fulfilling prophecy. and,
  
*2. Audio Pergatory is not a good place to be.   *So you have bravely decided to venture out of stage 1 bliss. If you do so, never, and I mean NEVER, listen to gear you can't possibly afford. You run the very real risk of being sentenced to Audio Pergatory for the rest of your natural life.  So you are listening to said unaffordable gear and you have an audio epiphany -- the roof of your listening room opens up and you can see/hear angels desending from the heavens. What happens to you when you have to return said gear?...Audio Pergatory my friend. That place where there is always a malaise, a longing for more and a profound disastisfaction with what you have.  I know the angst of Audio Pergatory first hand, so when many years ago, the boys from Audio Note offered me a chance to review the venerable Ongaku tube amplifier, I respectfully declined.  They thought I was crazy until I explained to them the perils of audio pergatory.  You see, the Ongaku retails for a cool $95,000 and even at reviewer accomodation pricing, I would never own it.
  
 Your words got me thinking Mr. Crazylegs, but Im really writing this missive for all my pals on this Gustard thread.


----------



## stuartmc

zilch0md said:


> That turned out to be about a two-track album for my taste, but yes, it's very well recorded.  (There's no accounting for my poor taste.)


 
  
 It's not the kind of stuff that will be in my regular rotation either, mainly because it demands too much attention and is rather arresting. But it sure is fun and sounds great.


----------



## Greggo

OK, I'm in... I have been researching and sweating bullets over what direction to go in regarding dedicated amp and dac for a while now.  Was very close to pulling the trigger on Lake People G109S and then the Lambert Play It By Ear, this after also considering Covalent Audio Nucleus and Schiit Lyr2.  At the end of the day, I know that I want solid state and a big, somewhat warm sound with crushing control behind it, but I can't afford the more poplar high end choices that fit that description, so I am rolling the dice here on the Gustard H10.
  
 Of course, everyone's great feedback and support here have made it much less of a gamble, so thank you for that and hopefully I will hear things much the same way as many of you have.
  
 My primary goal is to have something that will pair well with an HE-400i or HE-560 as one of those two headphones are in my very near future.  But my current line up at home includes:
  
 AKG K7XX (arriving soon)
 Audio-Technica ATH-ESW9
 Audio-Technica ATH-M50xBL
 B&O BeoPlay H6
 Focal Spirit Pro
 Grado RS225e
 HiFiMan TBD... but probably HE-560
 KEF M500
 Sennheiser HD 600
 Sennheiser HD 700
 Ultrasone PERF880
  
 Based on everyone's feedback thus far, it seems like this amp should do well with any of these headphones, but I am most interested in HD700 and HE-560. I know the latter will work great, but keeping my fingers crossed for the HD700.  It usually follows the HD800 in terms of amp synergy, but not always.  I guess I will find out soon enough.  If this all goes well, then the X12 or X20 is in my future as well. For now, the NAD D1050 will be performing DAC duties and I am hopeful that it can hold its own quite nicely in this regard.  Up until now, the built in amp has been my personal top of the line for the last year or so, and I have enjoyed it, but keep thinking that the amp section is still my weak link.  I have never had a decent amp, only Dragonfly, Explorer, and then D1050... so a bunch of "all in one" units... so I am extremely excited to finally have a dedicated amp, and one that just might be able to play up there with the big boys.


----------



## swannie007

lukeap69 said:


> Swannie, it seems you are building a Gustard system.  Nice touch.
> 
> Crazylegs, there are other cans you can think about and consider, HE-560, Alpha Prime and Beyer T1 which is 899 at buysonic right now. Enjoy.


 

 Yup, building a complete Gustard system. It has been my (limited) experience that the synergy between same-brand gear is normally pretty good and saves me the trouble(and expense) of trying numerous pieces of different brand gear to get a pleasing synergy. Very happy so far with the Gustard gear and figured that adding the U12 would be a good move to clean up the usb input and have a few output options from the U12 to other dacs in my various stacks.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Holy smokes, that's a whole lot of acoustic guitar stuff for me to explore. I only have three on your list, so I'd better get cracking!


 

 Not all acoustic guitar but all good guitar players IMHO. Enough to keep you out of mischief for a little while! Cheers.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> It's not the kind of stuff that will be in my regular rotation either, mainly because it demands too much attention and is rather arresting. But it sure is fun and sounds great.


 

 +1 to that.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> I'm sure the M8 is quite a deal. I have one of SMSL's portable headphone amps, the SAP-5, and it's quite the performer for such a budget price. I probably don't need to state the obvious, but there is no "free lunch" in higher-end audio. The law of diminishing returns is fully in play, so you have to decide if the much more expensive lunch has a taste improvement that is commensurate with the price.  The M8 may have hit the sweet spot for many and that's a very good thing.
> 
> I would have to disagree, however,  that the Chinese dacs that use the Sabre ES9018 all sound close, if not identical.  The Sabre chip happens to have quite a following, but it is apparently one of the most difficult to properly implement. There are some sabre based dacs that sound way too hard edged and flat to me, some that are pretty decent and a few that are amazing.  Why is this?  According to ESS technology, the chip is so revealing of detail that you will hear all that is wrong with the implementation. The application notes from ESS are pretty daunting, but they don't tell even half the story. Of the many factors that make for a good implementation of the chip, the few that most engineers/designers harp on are eliminating crosstalk between the data and the phase noise of the system clock, the system ground plane, and the power supply.  To do these things really really right generally requires additional, more expensive parts and more real estate to fit them in.  It starts with a PCB that must be meticulously laid out, a very robust and well regulated power supply that isolates the digital and analog stages as much as possible and then keeps going until the cost/benefit ratio gets way out of whack.  Take a look at some of the more highly regarded Chinese Sabre dacs, like those from Audio-gd, Matrix and Yulong. When you look at the insides, the most obvious thing you will see is the robust, isolated power supply - massive transformer(s), large capacitors and low noise voltage regulators.  I will add the Gustard DACs to this list because they too go all in on the power supply side, perhaps only rivaled by Audio-gd in this respect.
> 
> ...


 

 And quite a missive it is!! Thanks.


----------



## Schopenhauer

no_one411 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome, crazylegs! It's good to see a fellow Hoosier on here. It doesn't seem like there are very many of us on here. And congrats on the H10! It's a very special amp.
> ...


 
 I'm originally from West Virginny. But I'm doing my PhD at IUB.


----------



## Schopenhauer

swannie007 said:


> stuartmc said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure the M8 is quite a deal. I have one of SMSL's portable headphone amps, the SAP-5, and it's quite the performer for such a budget price. I probably don't need to state the obvious, but there is no "free lunch" in higher-end audio. The law of diminishing returns is fully in play, so you have to decide if the much more expensive lunch has a taste improvement that is commensurate with the price.  The M8 may have hit the sweet spot for many and that's a very good thing.
> ...


 
 Yes, thanks! I think of the H10 as a sort of Virgil figure who leads you through and out of Audio Purgatory (and Inferno). Ah, I think I hear the angels descending ...


----------



## natra084

what do you guys think about buying that ifi nano as a DAC


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> what do you guys think about buying that ifi nano as a DAC


 
  
 I have yet to hear any of the ifi stuff, but if you are trying to stay within a budget and see a future upgrade path with the nano becoming a nice office/travel companion then I don't see why not.  I started with Dragonfly and Explorer, and I thought they were perfectly adequate if not better than adequate, so I would expect the ifi to be the same or better based on your taste.  As long as everything you have read about the unit sounds good to you and especially if you have a chance to hear it yourself, then go for it.
  
 This may sound crazy, but I am starting to think that amps are making a bigger difference in this hobby than DACs.  I still chase after better DACs for reasons real or imagined, but they are starting to sound awfully close to each other whereas amp and headphone pairings seem to have fairly distinct personalities.  This of course based on very limited experience, YMMV.


----------



## Greggo

greggo said:


> OK, I'm in...


 
  
 Hey guys, can I at least get a "welcome to the club" or something?  Starting to feel a little left out


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> I have yet to hear any of the ifi stuff, but if you are trying to stay within a budget and see a future upgrade path with the nano becoming a nice office/travel companion then I don't see why not.  I started with Dragonfly and Explorer, and I thought they were perfectly adequate if not better than adequate, so I would expect the ifi to be the same or better based on your taste.  As long as everything you have read about the unit sounds good to you and especially if you have a chance to hear it yourself, then go for it.
> 
> This may sound crazy, but I am starting to think that amps are making a bigger difference in this hobby than DACs.  I still chase after better DACs for reasons real or imagined, but they are starting to sound awfully close to each other whereas amp and headphone pairings seem to have fairly distinct personalities.  This of course based on very limited experience, YMMV.



I agree with you 100%, I have been at home and testing my dac against the headphone output on my iMac hooked up to my amp I cannot hear the difference I agree with you it is the headphones and amp the makes the biggest difference.


----------



## natra084

Welcome to the club Greggo


----------



## lukeap69

greggo said:


> Hey guys, can I at least get a "welcome to the club" or something?  Starting to feel a little left out




Welcome to the H10 club Greggo! 

I too believe the amp makes more difference than the DAC but the headphones still make the biggest difference. My HD800 and Oppo PM-2 can prove that.


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> Welcome to the club Greggo


 
 Thanks !!!


----------



## Greggo

lukeap69 said:


> Welcome to the H10 club Greggo!
> 
> I too believe the amp makes more difference than the DAC but the headphones still make the biggest difference. My HD800 and Oppo PM-2 can prove that.


 
  
 Thanks, and yes, agree with that as well.
  
 Would be interested in your take between the Lyr 2 and the H10.  I am guessing my HD700 would like the Lyr 2 a little better, but I am hoping everything else I have now and in the future will like the H10 a little better.


----------



## lukeap69

greggo said:


> Thanks, and yes, agree with that as well.
> 
> Would be interested in your take between the Lyr 2 and the H10.  I am guessing my HD700 would like the Lyr 2 a little better, but I am hoping everything else I have now and in the future will like the H10 a little better.




Check post#229.


----------



## Greggo

Thanks for that ^ ... not sure how I missed that either, seems like I am forgetting a bunch of stuff in the various threads I am following.  Your description of the two amps is very encouraging and making me feel even better about my purchase here.


----------



## lukeap69

greggo said:


> Thanks for that ^ ... not sure how I missed that either, seems like I am forgetting a bunch of stuff in the various threads I am following.  Your description of the two amps is very encouraging and making me feel even better about my purchase here.




H10 is a very good amp and very reasonably priced. It pairs well with many headphones especially planar. The Lyr 2 may soon go to someone else's desk when my Play It By Ear arrives. But that will be in few months time.


----------



## Schopenhauer

greggo said:


> greggo said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I'm in...
> ...



Welcome to the club, Greggo!


----------



## Greggo

Thanks Schopenhauer!
  
 Really looking forward to getting this amp and burning it in.


----------



## stuartmc

greggo said:


> Thanks !!!




We have quite the crew here on the good ship Gustard -welcome aboard 'mate. We are looking forward to your impressions as soon as you get your sea legs.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> Yes, thanks! I think of the H10 as a sort of Virgil figure who leads you through and out of Audio Purgatory (and Inferno). Ah, I think I hear the angels descending ...



Well done good sir. I always enjoy the literary allusions. IMHO,the price performance ratio is off the charts with the H10. True highend sound at a price nearly all of us can afford. That's a beautiful, and dare I say it, heavenly, thing.


----------



## hotdogseller

h10 arrives tomorrow, HYPE


----------



## Schopenhauer

hotdogseller said:


> h10 arrives tomorrow, HYPE



YES. Gird your loins.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, thanks! I think of the H10 as a sort of Virgil figure who leads you through and out of Audio Purgatory (and Inferno). Ah, I think I hear the angels descending ...
> ...



My pleasure. I couldn't agree more. I think the H10 has to be one of the best kept secrets on head-fi. Of course, I don't think any of us are trying to keep it a secret. I've recommended it on other boards. I wouldn't be surprised if Gustard becomes as widely known and respected as e.g. Yulong or Cayin in the not so distant future. As long as we keep the good ship Gustard afloat ...

P.S. I hope to get some meaty reflections on the Alpha Dogs up soon! And I should really say ssomething about the LCD-2F before I let it go.


----------



## natra084

I just ordered my H10


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> I just ordered my H10


 
  
 Welcome to the club natra084!  Did you decide on a DAC as well?


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> Welcome to the club natra084!  Did you decide on a DAC as well?



Thanks. I don't know which dac I should buy, because I cannot hear the difference between Dac.


----------



## pekingduck

natra084 said:


> what do you guys think about buying that ifi nano as a DAC


 
  
 I bought an iDSD Nano last week to pair with my H10 and so far the combo works great with my IEMs (except some hiss even at -12). I haven't got a chance to try that with my HE560 yet since the phone is back at HiFiMAN now. After I get it back I'll post some impressions.


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> Thanks. I don't know which dac I should buy, because I cannot hear the difference between Dac.


 
 What are you using for headphones?  While I agree that many DACs will sound very similar, you should be able to hear a general sense of space, clearer bass and more detailed highs once you move from a macbook headphone jack to something a little better.  It may take some time to zero in on it, and it is certainly not the end of the world, but you will want to be careful if you are going from headphone jack to the input of the H10 and then to your headphones.  Though the computer DAC is decent enough, the DAC and audio circuits together, along with the noise problems in a computer in general, provide a significant barrier.  See if you can beg/borrow a few portable USB DACs once you have the H10, it might become more noticeable at that point.


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> What are you using for headphones?  While I agree that many DACs will sound very similar, you should be able to hear a general sense of space, clearer bass and more detailed highs once you move from a macbook headphone jack to something a little better.  It may take some time to zero in on it, and it is certainly not the end of the world, but you will want to be careful if you are going from headphone jack to the input of the H10 and then to your headphones.  Though the computer DAC is decent enough, the DAC and audio circuits together, along with the noise problems in a computer in general, provide a significant barrier.  See if you can beg/borrow a few portable USB DACs once you have the H10, it might become more noticeable at that point.



I have the Sennheiser HD650


----------



## Greggo

Oh, yeah... very nice.  I have HD600 and love them, they are very similar in sound.  The Senns are very forgiving and smooth, so I can see how many sources would sound extremely similar, but they also respond well to some power and I think the H10 will help them come alive a bit more.  Are you familiar with the Sennheiser "veil" ?  I think there is some truth to it and hopefully the H10 will remove it.  The nice thing about the senns is that many entry level DACs do fairly well with bass and mids but still struggle a bit with etched or grainy highs, but end up sounding great on the Senn because they are a bit rolled off in the highs and certainly not even close to being over detailed or harsh sounding up top like many other headphones. If you can swing it, I do think you should grab something (a budget priced, very modest DAC) that will give you a "line out" rather than "headphone out" source for your H10 just so you don't have any gain matching issues.


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> Oh, yeah... very nice.  I have HD600 and love them, they are very similar in sound.  The Senns are very forgiving and smooth, so I can see how many sources would sound extremely similar, but they also respond well to some power and I think the H10 will help them come alive a bit more.  Are you familiar with the Sennheiser "veil" ?  I think there is some truth to it and hopefully the H10 will remove it.  The nice thing about the senns is that many entry level DACs do fairly well with bass and mids but still struggle a bit with etched or grainy highs, but end up sounding great on the Senn because they are a bit rolled off in the highs and certainly not even close to being over detailed or harsh sounding up top like many other headphones. If you can swing it, I do think you should grab something (a budget priced, very modest DAC) that will give you a "line out" rather than "headphone out" source for your H10 just so you don't have any gain matching issues.



do you have any recommendations


----------



## natra084

I have also been thinking of buying Philips x2 or Sennheiser HD700


----------



## Greggo

Anything you think might be worth keeping around as a portable even if you get the bug to upgrade to a desktop DAC down the road, and/or anything that you can find that is just a no-brainer from a budget perspective so that you don't feel like you are getting pinched.  With my HD600, I noticed a nice difference going from MacBook to Audioquest Dragonfly.  The ifi stuff you mentioned earlier gets very good reviews from a wide variety of folks.  I would lean towards something that gives you a dedicated L/R pair of RCA line outs just because I think that is a clean way to set up your new amp and not worry about anything.


----------



## Zakin

Not that I'm the most terribly experienced, mostly commenting because the H10 is likely going to be a purchase for me when funds become available. But responding to Natra, it's hard at the beginning to determine differences in gear. Typically the issue with comparing DACs is that somewhere in the chain isn't transparent enough to actually resolve the differences well enough. The HD650 should show said differences, but only if they're being driven with enough authority to break through a little bit of the veil they have. Will say though that I absolutely love my HD650s, even with a little bit of a veil/warmness.
  
 Hope that Peking can give input on the H10 with the HE560 as well, prospective future combo for myself. Still deciding on game DAC land as well, lots of choices now.


----------



## DObleX

Are there any differences between balance and unbalance inputs? What is the better for the best sound quality?


----------



## lukeap69

There was a discussion between me and Stuart few pages back. Basically, there are other factors that may affect the SQ such as cable and of course the DAC. On my system using balanced connection, the dynamics is better, bass tighter but also the high is a tad brighter... Stuart seems to have different observation about the treble on his system when using balanced.


----------



## aegert

Hey new member will make profile stronger today.. Quick q. Thinking strongly re purchase of this DAC (*GUSTARD DAC-X12)*. Looks like its got it all.. In I know this is sacrilegious but the system driving it is a dedicated Mac as a music server. The whole fandamly uses it so there are MP3's (lossy) files used. Will this unit decode and play that stream via USB?
  
 thanks for any help.. Oh it will be directly going into a pair of tube mono blocks I built via Balanced XLR. The mono blocks are Push pull 4 5881 tungsol's from the 50's. 4 feedback controlled gain stage loops.. Ends up pretty linear. Warm as all get out..  
  
 Thanks for any and all help... I am replacing a Benchmark DAC1 original non USB. My old system had AES out new Imac no such luck


----------



## korzena

Would you guys consider GUSTARD H10 a better amp for LCD-2 than Schiit Lyr? 
How does GUSTARD H10 compare to Lyr for LCD-2?


----------



## Synthax

And If anyone got possibility, how Gustard compares in sound to Audio-GD at same price level?


----------



## Joong

korzena said:


> Would you guys consider GUSTARD H10 a better amp for LCD-2 than Schiit Lyr?
> How does GUSTARD H10 compare to Lyr for LCD-2?



H 10 is better than Lyr for sure.
I had both with LCD2.


----------



## aegert

just bought the Gustard x12


----------



## korzena

joong said:


> H 10 is better than Lyr for sure.
> I had both with LCD2.


 
 That's great news!
 Could you tell me the main [size=12.8000001907349px]differences[/size][size=12.8000001907349px] in [/size]sound between the two amps with LCD-2?


----------



## stuartmc

I like the sound of the H10 so well with the Hifiman HE-400i that I couldn't resist the urge to score the HE-560 at a nice price from a fellow head-fier.  I'll probably pass along my HE-400i at an equally nice price. They will need to go to a good home with someone who will appreciate my very careful grill and pad modifications.
  
 I had another interesting listening session with Gustard X12 last night.  I was doing A- B comparisons to the Aune S16 and I was quite frustrated that with additional breakin, the X12 hadn't opened up that last bit that I thought it would.  Every time I switched to the S16, I was hearing a more relaxed, natural, life-like sound. This was all about soundstage and the ambience of the recording venue, because that is what I was focusing on and was the most apparent difference between the two. The Gustard was still sounding a little too forward, with somewhat flattened images and a treble that wasn't harsh, but did have a slightly overemphasized leading edge on plucked notes.  I left it alone and on continuous play for a few more hours and when I returned, I decided switch up the setup. For A-B comparisons I had the Gustard DAC sitting ontop of the H10 and my Rega Apollo-R transport perched ontop of the X12. The Gustard DAC was essentially sandwiched between two other components. The Aune S16 was sitting on the side, all by itself, with no other components above or below.  I now put the X12 by itself and the S16 went into the stack sandwich.  
  
 Now back to the A-B comparison. I was using a very high resolution recording,  Carmen Gomes, Thousand Shades of Blue, Live Studio 11 recordings by Sound Liaison.  Wonderful ambient space, great vocal with hollow body electic guitar, upright bass and a cajon beat drum. Here is video of the actual recording session:   http://youtu.be/eXypZsHO4XQ
 Now this is uber cool because you can see the set up in the studio to confirm what you're hearing and imagining on your headphones.  This time the difference between the two DACs was greatly diminshed. So much so that it made me really wonder what was happening to the DACs when sandwiched like that. I was also cognizant of the fact that I might just have hit the Jeckyl and Hyde point of the X12's breakin.  The H10 had done a similar mind bending transformation on me, so why should I be surprised if the X12 did the same.  I wasn't going to keep switching around the setup to confirm which of the two was really causing the audible changes, I was just happy and relieved to hear the X12 sounding so much better.
  
 After more back and forth time with different music, I came to the conclusion that the little extra air and spatiousness of the S16 was really frequency response related. The S16 has a thinner lower midrange and more resticted bass than does the X12.  This makes the treble, where most of the ambient cues hang out, more noticeable in comparison. It wasn't retrieving any more detail, its just that those details were given something of a spotlight.   When I played tracks with deep and/or heavy bass, there was no question that the X12 had better control. It now even had superior sub-bass, which it lacked earlier in the breakin process.  The X12 has a richer midrange, which gives vocalists more chest register and to my ears that sounds more natural.  I am anxious to do this same comparison with the HE-560. From what I have been reading, it is less midrange dominant than the 400i, has more linear bass and a wider stage. If this is true, it should match perfectly with the X12 and I may like this combination much better than the Aune S16 with the 400i.


----------



## Joong

korzena said:


> That's great news!
> Could you tell me the main [SIZE=12.8000001907349px]differences[/SIZE][SIZE=12.8000001907349px] in [/SIZE]sound between the two amps with LCD-2?



At the moment comparison, I had Soloist and Lyr fed by Bifrost uber with He-5le and Lcd2-2.
Soloist was clear winner in every way.
Now I have Soloist and H10, both of them are in the same league with Lcd 2-2.
Soloist is slightly better in mid and low-mid, and in Bass with texture. H10 is slightly better in highs and in power.

H10 has More Fluidity, higher gain, and more musical tone ( those are the same as Soloist) for me than Lyr regardless of Tubes.
You can not go back.


----------



## Joong

stuartmc said:


> I like the sound of the H10 so well with the Hifiman HE-400i that I couldn't resist the urge to score the HE-560 at a nice price from a fellow head-fier.  I'll probably pass along my HE-400i at an equally nice price. They will need to go to a good home with someone who will appreciate my very careful grill and pad modifications.
> 
> I had another interesting listening session with Gustard X12 last night.  I was doing A- B comparisons to the Aune S16 and I was quite frustrated that with additional breakin, the X12 hadn't opened up that last bit that I thought it would.  Every time I switched to the S16, I was hearing a more relaxed, natural, life-like sound. This was all about soundstage and the ambience of the recording venue, because that is what I was focusing on and was the most apparent difference between the two. The Gustard was still sounding a little too forward, with somewhat flattened images and a treble that wasn't harsh, but did have a slightly overemphasized leading edge on plucked notes.  I left it alone and on continuous play for a few more hours and when I returned, I decided switch up the setup. For A-B comparisons I had the Gustard DAC sitting ontop of the H10 and my Rega Apollo-R transport perched ontop of the X12. The Gustard DAC was essentially sandwiched between two other components. The Aune S16 was sitting on the side, all by itself, with no other components above or below.  I now put the X12 by itself and the S16 went into the stack sandwich.
> 
> ...




EMI was playing when the Dac was near other electronics.
Especially stacked over digital board, noise can be picked and Aliased back into audio range, so that you can hear distorsions.
The digital equipment or Switched power supply near your Dac that over samples the signals will certainly picks the noise and the harmonics too.
Stacking is not recommendid, which induces magnetically and electrically and mutually.
For power is guided by wire and travel through space around the wire, and magnetic field does not see aluminum case as shield so that not only digital but analog can influence each other.


----------



## doco

after almost two weeks of burn-in with bifrost uber and H10 amp i can say the H10 drives the HD650 well. not OK or not great or not bloody freakin' fantastic you'll nerdgasm. just well. tube amps are still the top standards for driving the HD650. as for the HE-560 that is for another time. i plan to listen to it more but i can tell i am loving it.


----------



## stuartmc

joong said:


> EMI was playing when the Dac was near other electronics.
> Especially stacked over digital board, noise can be picked and Aliased back into audio range, so that you can hear distorsions.
> The digital equipment or Switched power supply near your Dac that over samples the signals will certainly picks the noise and the harmonics too.
> Stacking is not recommendid, which induces magnetically and electrically and mutually.
> For power is guided by wire and travel through space around the wire, and magnetic field does not see aluminum case as shield so that not only digital but analog can influence each other.




My intuition was telling me the same thing. In my main rig, I isolate everything starting at the power supply. I'm not nearly as picky with this headphone gear in my bedroom, but I'm learning that it's just as important. I setup my black diamond shelf with carbon cones supporting it over the first level of gustard gear sitting side by side and was able to place my transport and the Aune 16 on top with plenty of clearance. This seems to have solved the problem. I first used some big sorbathane pucks to support the shelf. I'd forgotten how thick and muddy that makes a transport sound.... Ahhhg!- horrible...so in went the carbon cones and order was restored to the universe.


----------



## stuartmc

doco said:


> after almost two weeks of burn-in with bifrost uber and H10 amp i can say the H10 drives the HD650 well. not OK or not great or not bloody freakin' fantastic you'll nerdgasm. just well. tube amps are still the top standards for driving the HD650. as for the HE-560 that is for another time. i plan to listen to it more but i can tell i am loving it.




Interesting. I have the HD600 and it sounded pretty darn good with the H10, but it didn't light me up the way the H10 and HE-400i combo did. I think the consensus is that it's extraordinary driving planar magnetics. What's your take with the HE-560?


----------



## hotdogseller

got my H10 yesterday, but have to wait until my gungnir comes in later this week to test it out. I can say tho I like the build quality at least, that volume pot is crazy big lol


----------



## stuartmc

hotdogseller said:


> got my H10 yesterday, but have to wait until my gungnir comes in later this week to test it out. I can say tho I like the build quality at least, that volume pot is crazy big lol




Yea, feel up that volume knob good - twist it up and down a few hundred times. That aught to keep you busy and satisfied for several days..... NOT! Lol


----------



## lukeap69

hotdogseller said:


> got my H10 yesterday, but have to wait until my gungnir comes in later this week to test it out. I can say tho I like the build quality at least, that volume pot is crazy big lol




You can start the burn in period whilst waiting for the Gungnir.


----------



## FlySweep

stuartmc said:


> What's your take with the HE-560?


 
  
 In a nutshell.. the H10 essentially "gets out of the way" and lets the 560 "shine in all its glory."  Biggest thing that stood out was driver control/speed, incredibly natural tone/timbre, and a silky smoothness.
   





hotdogseller said:


> got my H10 yesterday, but have to wait until my gungnir comes in later this week to test it out. I can say tho I like the build quality at least, that volume pot is crazy big lol


 
  
 Good to hear.. I might be crazy, but IME, the volume pot actually turns more smoothly after the unit's been running for a little while.. dunno if that's to do with the unit reaching a certain operating temp or what, but, yeah.. on multiple occasions, I felt the pot turned more smoothly after a good 20-40 minutes of use.


----------



## natra084

doco said:


> after almost two weeks of burn-in with bifrost uber and H10 amp i can say the H10 drives the HD650 well. not OK or not great or not bloody freakin' fantastic you'll nerdgasm. just well. tube amps are still the top standards for driving the HD650. as for the HE-560 that is for another time. i plan to listen to it more but i can tell i am loving it.



I don't know about that I had the V200 and with the Sennheiser HD650 I thought it was too warm sounding but that is a matter of taste


----------



## stuartmc

aegert said:


> just bought the Gustard x12




Excellent. It will be nice to get some additional feedback on it. Do you also have the H10? Oops, just read your earlier post and see that you don't. The X12 should be a big step up from your former gear. Enjoy!


----------



## aegert

stuartmc said:


> Excellent. It will be nice to get some additional feedback on it. Do you also have the H10? Oops, just read your earlier post and see that you don't. The X12 should be a big step up from your former gear. Enjoy!



Thanks. Thanks Yes I would agree. Finally native diff support for 1000s of hrs of personal live recordings I've made.


----------



## natra084

I made my decision I order that I iFi nano and why did I order this because it's very good priced it has a lot of features and because I just have difficulty hearing differences between dac and comparing to the other dac I have looked at HRT Musical Fidelity and more, they only have 24/192 and they're are not portable and they are only dac and cost more. this one is amp and dac has higher bitright and lot more features and it is portable and you can drive it by batteries that should eliminate some USB noise.


----------



## stuartmc

Another critical listening session tonight and I can now confidently say that the Gustard X12 is the H10 of DACs!

I solved my little stacking emi problem last night, so I now am hearing pure break in changes and let me tell you, this DAC goes through a lengthy transformation just like the H10 did. In the past 24 hours of play the openness and ease that I've been waiting for has finally arrived. There's not a trace of hardness left and the imaging within the stage is now very natural and yet almost bordering on the surreal in its clarity. What I mean by this is that the haze, or very low level white noise that usually surrounds images giving them a halo effect and artificially filling in the space between them, is almost entirely gone with this DAC. Cylindrical images of singers and instruments hovering in a completely black, silent, haze and halo free environment is a wonderful and yes, almost surreal thing to hear. I have heard this before in my big rig and have written about it several times before, but this was the first time hearing it with my headphone setup.

The tonality, as I said before is rich and spot on for me. Superb bass with high resolution and control, what I call a moist midrange, that being not too sappy wet and not too dry and bleached out. The teble is clear and grain free without any glare or over emphasis, yet gets those leading edges, the pluck of the string, the snare rim shot and cymbal crash, rendered with the speed and authority they need for realism. The macro and microdynamics are exciting without being a carnival show. 

You know how many of us have said in effect that the H10 just gets out of the way and makes beautiful music, well I'm saying the same thing about the X12. I have several other dacs here for comparison and the X12 has now surpassed them all. It took a while and if i hadn't been through the arduous breakin process with the H10, I might have written it off early. I'm a very happy camper now.


----------



## stuartmc

flysweep said:


> In a nutshell.. the H10 essentially "gets out of the way" and lets the 560 "shine in all its glory."  Biggest thing that stood out was driver control/speed, incredibly natural tone/timbre, and a silky smoothness.




And this, good sir, is the reason I pulled the trigger on the HE-560. You hear the same things I do with the H10, so I am very confident in your 560 recommendation. Not to mention the fact that the 400i blew the doors off my HD600 when using the H10.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> flysweep said:
> 
> 
> > In a nutshell.. the H10 essentially "gets out of the way" and lets the 560 "shine in all its glory."  Biggest thing that stood out was driver control/speed, incredibly natural tone/timbre, and a silky smoothness.
> ...



And I, like a prodigal, just bought the HE-6. I'm anxious to see how it sounds with the H10, which has more than enough current and has a signature that, I hope, should pair well with the HE-6's supposed highly resolving nature. I'd really wanted to get the HE-560, but I just couldn't go nextgen without hearing the present king. The HE-6 has been my dreamzkhan for months (which is like 56 Head-Fi years).


----------



## Zakin

stuartmc said:


> Another critical listening session tonight and I can now confidently say that the Gustard X12 is the H10 of DACs!
> 
> I solved my little stacking emi problem last night, so I now am hearing pure break in changes and let me tell you, this DAC goes through a lengthy transformation just like the H10 did. In the past 24 hours of play the openness and ease that I've been waiting for has finally arrived. There's not a trace of hardness left and the imaging within the stage is now very natural and yet almost bordering on the surreal in its clarity. What I mean by this is that the haze, or very low level white noise that usually surrounds images giving them a halo effect and artificially filling in the space between them, is almost entirely gone with this DAC. Cylindrical images of singers and instruments hovering in a completely black, silent, haze and halo free environment is a wonderful and yes, almost surreal thing to hear. I have heard this before in my big rig and have written about it several times before, but this was the first time hearing it with my headphone setup.
> 
> ...


 
 So, you'd say it has beaten out your Aune in every way then?  Sort of what I was hoping to hear, still eyeing the Yulong stack. But the Gustard sounds like a ridiculous bang for buck setup.


----------



## stuartmc

zakin said:


> So, you'd say it has beaten out your Aune in every way then?  Sort of what I was hoping to hear, still eyeing the Yulong stack. But the Gustard sounds like a ridiculous bang for buck setup.




As you know from the Aune thread, the S16 is no slouch and I remain very impressed with it. That being said, the X12 finally pulled ahead tonight in the areas that matter most to me. They are two different flavored DACs and if the rest of your gear sounded much warmer than neutral, I could see someone preferring the more lean and airy presentation of the S16. In my case, the X12 does the better job... and yes, that is in almost every way.

Oh, and in terms of bang for the buck, I would put the H10/X12 at the top of the list. Just ridiculous performance for a $925 total.


----------



## swannie007

Go Gustard! So glad we found these gems and the bang for the buck is, indeed, insane!
 Schopenhauer, I love the comment about 56 hi-fi years!!Too funny, really made me laugh.
 I am out in the bush at work right now for 19 days and I miss my ear toys! Can't wait to get home and try the U12 in my Gustard stack.


----------



## Greggo

Couple of quick questions:
  
 1) Does the U12 offer any advantage over just going straight to X12?
  
 2) If I understand the U12 correctly, it provides a highly capable USB input for all kinds of files and will then output AES/EBU, Toslink, etc...  so would it be a good way to take the feed from one computer USB and then parse it out to multiple DACs that could be located further away, like one in a primary stereo system and another DAC on the other side of the room dedicated to headphone listening?
  
 3) Can the X12 and most similar DACs send a signal to single ended and balanced outputs at the same time, so I could run two different amps and have everything powered on together all the time?
  
 4) FInally, anyone hear anything about the X20?  I am thinking about pulling the trigger on the X12 in another month or two, but I am wondering what the timing and price point will be for the X20 and if that may be the one to watch???
  
 Thanks for any and all help on this... excited to get my hands on the H10, should be here tomorrow and thinking about going all in with Gustard electronics for my system.


----------



## Lorspeaker

i was just reading up on the Dac2..and the discounted deal on Dac1,
 would the x12 be anywhere near dacs such as the benchmark? 
 where is Stuart...


----------



## gutekbull

I changed the 2 units. OPA134PA on AD797ANZ.
 I would recommend 
  
  
  
 I also replace the NE5532P to Muses 02.
 I achieve the 3D sound effect when using Audeze LCD-2 and also when using Audiotechics ATH-A900X, AKG Q701. Sound scene is just amazing. Sound is just way richer and got longer resonance with much more details perceptible to hear.
 To sum up, after all the changes Gustard H10 plays just the Hi-End sound. Therefore I would like to highly recommend you exchanging this OPAM.
 Best Regards,
 GutekBull


----------



## stuartmc

lorspeaker said:


> i was just reading up on the Dac2..and the discounted deal on Dac1,
> would the x12 be anywhere near dacs such as the benchmark?
> where is Stuart...



Having not heard the dac1 or dac2, I can't give you a definitive opinion on the sound. However, there a few things that stand out to me with the benchmark dacs that would make me question their value and comparative performance. For a $1300 and $2000 DAC respectively, the build type and quality is a bit sketchy compared to the $585 X12. The benchmarks use a lot smd's and the power supply looks absolutely wimpy in comparison. Call me old school, but I feel a lot more confident seeing two separate transformers for analog and digital, some seriously big high grade caps and discrete voltage regulation. The dac1 looks like a toy in comparison and the dac 2 uses a switching power supply, that is lightweight and inexpensive and is not commonly used in dacs and probably for a good reason. 

It seems to me that benchmark has focused on jitter reduction by circuit design, while Gustard has focused on the basics of a robust well regulated power supply that separates analog from digital. Some might say that one is an elegant scalpel-like solution and the other is a more crude sledge hammer solution. I'll put my money on the Gustard sledge hammer. I read the ESS application notes and a lot of engineers' comments and the Sabre chip does really well in the jitter department without any fancy additional circuitry, provided you are fanatical about ground plane, isolation and power supply.

Of course I could be completely wrong, but I would seriously doubt that the benchmark's Sabre application is appreciably better than that of the X12.


----------



## korzena

gutekbull said:


> I changed the 2 units. OPA134PA on AD797ANZ.
> I would recommend


 
 Welcome to Head-fi! 
  
 What kind of difference in sound have you noticed by changing OPA134PA to AD797ANZ?


----------



## doco

stuartmc said:


> Interesting. I have the HD600 and it sounded pretty darn good with the H10, but it didn't light me up the way the H10 and HE-400i combo did. I think the consensus is that it's extraordinary driving planar magnetics. What's your take with the HE-560?


 
  it's my first time listening to any type of planar headphones and the HE-560 + H10 amp blows me away. it's basically what flysweep said early on in this thread which i experienced so far with the combo. i'm also hearing things i have never heard before. example is one song with a chrous singing low notes into a powerful high note which just blew me away. i have heard this song so many times and that was the first time i experienced that. and songs that puts a "slam" in certain parts of it just comes out like it's meant to be if you've ever attended a live orchestra. you know like one of those guys whose only job is to slam a big hammer-type object into the instrument to make an impact during the song.
  
 i'm pretty sure i've reached my endgame for now unless i decided to go fully balanced.


----------



## Joong

gutekbull said:


> I changed the 2 units. OPA134PA on AD797ANZ.
> I would recommend


 

 I have AD797AR which is the same but the package, I might try to change to see the difference in the weekend.
 High end preamplifier takes this chip for some improvement.
 Could you poste your impression regarding this change?
 What do you think of "Dual to Mono Op amp module"? Is it better solution for more noise reduction?


----------



## hotdogseller

HELP
  
 so my H10 works fine with my gungnir via RCA, but when I used my balanced XLR cables it is barely audible only when I crank it all the way up (I keep it at 9 on RCA). Anyone have any ideas??


----------



## FlySweep

hotdogseller said:


> HELP
> 
> so my H10 works fine with my gungnir via RCA, but when I used my balanced XLR cables it is barely audible only when I crank it all the way up (I keep it at 9 on RCA). Anyone have any ideas??


 
  
 Next to the gain switches on the back, there's a toggle for balanced/unbalanced (I think up is for balanced operation).. did you set it accordingly?  I never tested the balanced operation since i don't have any balanced gear (atm).. also, you might try unplugging the RCAs and only having the XLRs connected (and the switch set for balanced use).
  
 Oh.. and remember to turn your volume all the way down before proceeding!


----------



## Joong

hotdogseller said:


> HELP
> 
> so my H10 works fine with my gungnir via RCA, but when I used my balanced XLR cables it is barely audible only when I crank it all the way up (I keep it at 9 on RCA). Anyone have any ideas??


 
 When gain is low, the volume should follow your turning.
 I think both channels have the same troubles.
  
 Regardless of the gain switches, only you remove the RCA cables completely from H10, and you should be OK.
 Otherwise H10 must revise their design or QC plan to detect the failure modes.


----------



## stuartmc

The H10 plays just fine with both RCA's and xlr's connected. I did this when comparing different front ends. All you have to do is throw the balanced/unbalanced dip switches on the back like Flysweep said.


----------



## Zakin

Curious Stuart more so on the DAC X12, have you ever had a chance to hear some of the higher up DACs like Anedio/Yulong for comparison? Pretty curious there, it's obvious the H10 stands as an extraordinary well designed amp, but still you're basically the only review basis for the DAC at the moment. I appreciate all of your feedback so far, your commitment is just about as good as Flysweep!


----------



## hotdogseller

stuartmc said:


> The H10 plays just fine with both RCA's and xlr's connected. I did this when comparing different front ends. All you have to do is throw the balanced/unbalanced dip switches on the back like Swannie said.




Yep didn't even see that switch, my bad


----------



## stuartmc

zakin said:


> Curious Stuart more so on the DAC X12, have you ever had a chance to hear some of the higher up DACs like Anedio/Yulong for comparison? Pretty curious there, it's obvious the H10 stands as an extraordinary well designed amp, but still you're basically the only review basis for the DAC at the moment. I appreciate all of your feedback so far, your commitment is just about as good as Flysweep!




Well don't take my word for it. I'm hardly Solomonic in my DAC proclamations, lol. As you know, i have the Aune S16. I also have a Sony 777es SACD player with built in dac, let's call that one the boat anchor because it weighs like 75lbs. I have a Rega Apollo R with built in Wolfson DAC, an old school audio alchemy DAC with the stand alone power supply and a Bel Canto DAC. That's just what I have lying around now. I had a Schiit Bifrost Uber a while back too. Even further back I had various top of the line Thetas, something from Enlightened Audio Designs, Monarchy and Melos. That's all I can remember at the moment and it's probably irrelevant to the kind of info you're looking for. I only share this to let you know that I know what a good dac sounds like, at least for my personal tastes.


----------



## stuartmc

I hope that didn't sound flippant or dismissive at all. Im just saying that my opinion on the X12 should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.

I do understand how difficult it is to make a gear purchase when you don't have the luxury of hearing all the options for yourself. We are forced to rely upon the very subjective opinions of others and must give weight to them as best we can. If someone has the exact same pieces we wish to compare, we would logically give more weight to their impressions. When that fortuitous circumstance doesn't arise, we then look to the opinions of people who have listened to a lot of different gear and particularly those individuals who seem to hear the same things we do, who have perhaps in the recent past described the sound of some component almost exactly how we would have. These folks become our more trusted opinion givers and we weight their impressions accordingly. 

I'm relatively new to the headphone scene, so I do this kind of weighting quite a lot. Our friend Flysweep has become one of those more trusted opinion givers for me because the words he has written about the H10 could have been my words. I know that when it comes to how we hear and perceive things, we are at least in the same ballpark. So when he tells me he has the HE-560 and it's a match made in heaven with the H-10, I feel a little more comfortable about upgrading from my HE-400i. Incidentally, the 560's arrive tomorrow and I'll be reevaluating which DAC sounds best with them.


----------



## korzena

I've read the whole thread, but I still would like to know more....
 ....about *Gustard H10 vs Schiit Lyr for LCD-2 headphones*?
  
Does Gustard produce brighter or darker sound compared to Lyr?
 How is the sound stage, holography?
 Which one sounds more energetic/lively/engaging?
 Which amp is more detailed?
  
 In general what are the main differences in sound character between the two?


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> stuartmc said:
> 
> 
> > flysweep said:
> ...




I love the story of the prodigal son. The one I feel sorriest for is the prodigal big brother. He doesn't really know the Father's heart and doesn't experience the grace and forgiveness that his little brother does.

You definitely need to share with us the HE-6 experience. That should be cathartic since you have been waiting 56 head-fi years for the event, lol. When I first read that, I thought you were teasing ME. I said to myself, "hey, I resemble that remark - I AM 56 years old!"


----------



## Zakin

Oh no Stuart, you gave me exactly what I was hoping to hear. Nothing dismissive about your initial response. I'm likely going to go with the Gustard stack, mostly cause it seems to sound excruciatingly good and at half the price or so of what I was going to go for before. I don't anticipate hearing any comparisons between the Gustard X12 and the Yulong DA8 anytime soon unless I get the chance in the future. Wouldn't cross that out of a possibility though.


----------



## natra084

Hi guys I just received my H10 and all of you were 100% right about the sound for the time being it is warm and the sound stage is not that wide but I just have to have patience and wait for the beautiful sound to come out.


----------



## No_One411

korzena said:


> I've read the whole thread, but I still would like to know more....
> ....about *Gustard H10 vs Schiit Lyr for LCD-2 headphones*?
> 
> Does Gustard produce brighter or darker sound compared to Lyr?
> ...


 
  
 I don't know how many people own both the Gustard H10 and Lyr 2 and will be able to comment on that pairing...
  
 Only person I can tell is @lukeap69


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > stuartmc said:
> ...


 
 Ha! Certainly no offense meant, and I'm sure none was taken. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But I will definitely share the HE-6 experience. 56 years in the making, how could I not? Since the H10 outputs the same amount of power at 50Ohms as does the Violectric V200, I have high hopes about the pairing. I've read that the V200 is more than capable with the HE-6, and in fact helps to tame the highs a bit. I think the H10 should work a similar magic!
  
 All this DAC talk is making me restless. It's time for me to settle on my workhorse DAC. I've been leaning toward the Mousai MSD192, which happens to be sold by pollychen. LFF gave it an excellent review on that one forum we can't talk about here. I need to look into Gustard's latest offering, though.


----------



## No_One411

I'm still extremely happy with my Anedio D2 (although I seem to be in the minority in this regard, since there isn't much discussion on this unit on Head-fi), and will probably be saving up for the Schiit Yggy when it is released. 
  
 Driving the H10 out of the D2 balanced out works really well. Haven't really felt the need to switch to +6 for anything.


----------



## Zakin

no_one411 said:


> I'm still extremely happy with my Anedio D2 (although I seem to be in the minority in this regard, since there isn't much discussion on this unit on Head-fi), and will probably be saving up for the Schiit Yggy when it is released.
> 
> Driving the H10 out of the D2 balanced out works really well. Haven't really felt the need to switch to +6 for anything.


 
 I'm always surprised the Anedio doesn't get more attention around here, people follow Project's reviews pretty religiously around here. Saying that, he absolutely loved the Anedio/Matrix/Yulong trio of flagships, only reason he didn't keep them is he moved up to that 1800$~+ range of DACs.


----------



## DObleX

Beyerdynamic DT880 Premium *600*ohm + Gustard H10=Love or Hate)? Is anybody try it? Can H10 fully drive this headphones? And what about compatibility (
 dark/light sound)?


----------



## RiddleyWalker

Seriously considering picking up this amp for my ZMF Blackwood (modified T50rp).  FlySweep and No_One411 seem to have success with using their LFF Paradox Slant (also T50rp mod) and seems like it's reported to work incredibly well with planars for the money.  Now, I know this thread is obviously going to have some level of bias in favor of the H10, but for the money ($350-400) is there anything else I should be looking at?
  
 Thanks for helping a noob


----------



## lukeap69

@stuartmc my friend, thanks for introducing Acoustic Alchemy to me. I am now listening with Audio-gd NFB-1>Gustard H10>HD800 and enjoying so much. The HD800's amazing soundstage and imaging really makes Alchemy's music shine! The H10 is doing a good job of presenting the instruments separation. Very nice evening indeed.


----------



## stuartmc

riddleywalker said:


> Seriously considering picking up this amp for my ZMF Blackwood (modified T50rp).  FlySweep and No_One411 seem to have success with using their LFF Paradox Slant (also T50rp mod) and seems like it's reported to work incredibly well with planars for the money.  Now, I know this thread is obviously going to have some level of bias in favor of the H10, but for the money ($350-400) is there anything else I should be looking at?
> 
> Thanks for helping a noob


 
 Bias in favor of the H10?..... Nah, couldn't happen.  Hee hee.


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> @stuartmc my friend, thanks for introducing Acoustic Alchemy to me. I am now listening with Audio-gd NFB-1>Gustard H10>HD800 and enjoying so much. The HD800's amazing soundstage and imaging really makes Alchemy's music shine! The H10 is doing a good job of presenting the instruments separation. Very nice evening indeed.


 
 You are most welcome fellow H10 shipmate.  It's all about the music and AA has always put a smile on my face.  I was hoping to listen to them today on the HE-560, but mother nature dumped three feet of snow on us and the USPS bagged on deliveries. I will now edit the Postal services unofficial motto -   "Neither light snow, nor rain, nor heat, nor gloom of night, stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds."


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> Oh yes, I am very much saying acoustic guitar.  I have Classical guitar music from the likes of Segovia and Williams, Spanish Guitar stuff from Segovia, Strunz and Farah and  Ottmar Liebert and then every single Acoustic Alchemy album.  I really love the stuff and its my go to source when I'm trying to get a handle on tonality as well as the balance between pluck, bloom and decay.




Thanks for these recommendations, Stuart! I've been an Ottmar Liebert fan for a long time, but hadn't explored these other artists. 

*I'm listening to Acoustic Alchemy's favorite tracks list on Tidal at the moment. Wow! Me like! A lot!*

I have to apologize for using my Gustard-less chain... Sooner or later I'll try the H10, but I'm waiting on something else at the moment (since Dec. 4th), so I have to pace myself. 

Tidal > iPad 3 > Pure i-20 Coaxial out > Metrum Acoustics Octave MkII > NuForce HA-200 > HD800

Thanks!

Mike


----------



## Greggo

greggo said:


> Couple of quick questions:
> 
> 1) Does the U12 offer any advantage over just going straight to X12?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Any takers on the X12 and/or U12 questions above?  Stuart?  Anyone besides Stuart take the plunge on either of these?
  
 Stuart, I hope you start a thread on the X12 in Dedicated Source Components... though I like the idea of a Gustard family thread all staying in one place as well...
  
 Anyways, I have the H10 playing right now, fed by NAD D1050 and into the HE-560 I have on loan as part of the West Coast Tour.  I had the amp plugged in and powered on for 4 hours before I sent any signal through it, and now it has been playing music for about 4 hours. I check in every now and then and things sound pretty decent to me. Definitely not smooth and flowing sound from top to bottom, but sounds fairly clean and well organized if that makes any sense. Trying hard not to listen too closely at this point as I told myself to give it a day or two before I start expecting much of anything, and at least a week or two before coming to any final conclusion.
  
 Also, regarding the dip switches on the back, what is the safe or "best practices" with such things? Do I turn the volume down to zero before changing a setting or go even further and power down the unit, make the change, and then power it back up?  All the DIP switches are in the down position. Since I am using RCA cables and one of the settings is "unbalanced" does that mean the switch should be in the up position? And finally, the remaining settings are for -12, -6, +6, +12 ... so I am assuming only one of those four switches should ever be in the up position at any one time?  And since all are in the down position currently that would just be -0+.  Is that correct?  I currently run the volume knob around 2 o'clock and that is fairly loud but not real load. Sorry for the big bunch of questions here but I am a newbie to dedicated power amps.


----------



## Schopenhauer

riddleywalker said:


> Seriously considering picking up this amp for my ZMF Blackwood (modified T50rp).  FlySweep and No_One411 seem to have success with using their LFF Paradox Slant (also T50rp mod) and seems like it's reported to work incredibly well with planars for the money.  Now, I know this thread is obviously going to have some level of bias in favor of the H10, but for the money ($350-400) is there anything else I should be looking at?
> 
> Thanks for helping a noob


 
 The H10 really breathes life into the T50RP driver. While I had a custom tuned ZMF x Vibro briefly, I never tried it with the H10. The particular headphones' sound wasn't to my tastes. 
  
 I wouldn't so much as there isn't anything else in the price range as I would that you can't go wrong with the H10. The good news is that there's a lot of excellent kit out there in the $35-$400 range. I can think of the Lyr 2 and the Pan Am right off the bat. But that doesn't diminish the quality of the H10.


----------



## Schopenhauer

greggo said:


> greggo said:
> 
> 
> > Couple of quick questions:
> ...


 
 I think you can engage the +6 and +12 for a net +18 pregain boost, but I've never tried that. Usually I dial the volume to zero and stop the input before adjusting the pregain.
  
 And I also like the Gustard club all in one place! And yet we must spread the dharma...


----------



## Greggo

Thanks for that Schopenhauer. I guess I will work up the nerve to do some experimenting with those switches fairly soon.
  
 Not sure if I am just a bit daft or lucky with this amp build/run, but I have been getting some very good sound here after only one day of running it in. I have not tried my HD600 yet, but the HD700 seems like a much better match than I was anticipating. I have been having tons of fun here going back and forth between HE-560 and HD700 over the last few hours. This amp has already earned a "fantastic" rating from me, but then again it is the first dedicated headphone amp I have spent more than a few minutes listening to. If this gets even better over the next few days I will just have to keep posting here about how awesome this thing is, what a great bang for the buck.
  
 Very pleased with the packaging and build quality here as well. The volume control is really well executed and the overall aesthetic of the unit is very nice IMHO. Fit and finish from every angle is very good and I like the footers as well. I am already looking forward to the X12 or X20 now as this purchase experience has been so positive. Going to sign up for Tidal tomorrow and start mixing in a few more headphones in the rotation and see how things go.


----------



## stuartmc

Hi Greggo. I can't answer the U12 questions other than telling you what the Gustard guys reported through Polychen when I asked about the X12 without the USB board. What was reported was that the u12 was a superior application and if I decided to run usb audio later, I would be doing better by getting the U12.

As far as I know, the X12 will run single ended and balanced simultaneously. I can run both into the H10 and throw the dip switch between balanced and unbalanced.

I haven't heard anything on the X20 other than the few comments that came along with the X12 release. I am also interested in learning more because the X12 is ridiculously good for its price and the only thing that would tempt me at this point would be an X12 on steroids. If the X20 is that and comes in at well under $1000, I might just upgrade.

I had a snow day today. The postman didn't deliver my HE-560, so I entertained myself with some cool X12 and H10 mods. I will be posting pictures and descriptions tomorrow. I got inside of both and I'm seriously impressed with build quality and PCB layout. My mod has to do with the cabinet feet and altering the resonate frequency of the case. Serious tweekazoid stuff that I used to do with all my gear and I had to give it a shot with the Gustards.


----------



## 4Real

@Greggo
  
 There's a thread been running for ages on the U12 if you haven't seen it.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip


----------



## lukeap69

Yeah, Bob is so impressed by it.


----------



## Greggo

stuartmc said:


> Hi Greggo. I can't answer the U12 questions other than telling you what the Gustard guys reported through Polychen when I asked about the X12 without the USB board. What was reported was that the u12 was a superior application and if I decided to run usb audio later, I would be doing better by getting the U12.
> 
> As far as I know, the X12 will run single ended and balanced simultaneously. I can run both into the H10 and throw the dip switch between balanced and unbalanced.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks Stuart!  Your info and approach above is great to know and I think I am gonna watch how the X20 plays out before I make a decision.  Very interested in your mod adventures as well.


----------



## Greggo

4real said:


> @Greggo
> 
> There's a thread been running for ages on the U12 if you haven't seen it.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip


 
  
 Nice, I have not gone through that thread yet so thank you.


----------



## Greggo

OK, half way into Day 2. Mo better. I had it running while I was doing other things this morning and just started listening an hour ago. Whoa! What happened up top? The highs have really come to life and the room feels a bit bigger. The imaging was fine last night, with familiar cues running side to side, but now the middle of the stage seems a bit more relaxed, like all the musicians were a bit cramped before and now they have room on stage relax more. At first I thought, oh man, I hope this isn't a bright combination I have here... but no, it is definitely smoother than my other dac/amp combo units, it is just that now the highs are well extended and that makes everything feel a bit more lit up. More bass and body than my other gear however, so even the HD700 continues to sound smoother and less harsh on some material than it ever has before.
  
 Yesterday I was thinking about all the comments I have read on the HE-560 over the last few months, as they sounded a bit warm and dark to me, but now I get it... they are well extended and not bass or mid heavy at all. They are very nicely balanced IMHO and are a fantastic compliment to the HD700. They are both so different, and yet both sound like top performers.
  
 This transformation from yesterday to today was so distinct and definitive for me, definitely not brain burn in, definitely not suggested bias, I am just convinced this is all so clearly real and it renews my confidence that some things in this hobby that are "perceived" are in fact "real". I won't venture to guess what percentage, but if only 20% was real and the rest was in my head, I would still be a happy camper.  Also, yesterday I was mostly moving between 1 and 4 o'clock on the volume dial during my listening, now I am running 12 noon to 2 o'clock.  I am wondering if that is just do to the fuller range up top or if the amp is just getting better at delivering current into the headphones and has in fact gotten a smidge louder.  Is that even possible?


----------



## lukeap69

And it will continue to improve... Many of us agreed on that (I think...)


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> OK, half way into Day 2. Mo better. I had it running while I was doing other things this morning and just started listening an hour ago. Whoa! What happened up top? The highs have really come to life and the room feels a bit bigger. The imaging was fine last night, with familiar cues running side to side, but now the middle of the stage seems a bit more relaxed, like all the musicians were a bit cramped before and now they have room on stage relax more. At first I thought, oh man, I hope this isn't a bright combination I have here... but no, it is definitely smoother than my other dac/amp combo units, it is just that now the highs are well extended and that makes everything feel a bit more lit up. More bass and body than my other gear however, so even the HD700 continues to sound smoother and less harsh on some material than it ever has before.
> 
> Yesterday I was thinking about all the comments I have read on the HE-560 over the last few months, as they sounded a bit warm and dark to me, but now I get it... they are well extended and not bass or mid heavy at all. They are very nicely balanced IMHO and are a fantastic compliment to the HD700. They are both so different, and yet both sound like top performers.
> 
> This transformation from yesterday to today was so distinct and definitive for me, definitely not brain burn in, definitely not suggested bias, I am just convinced this is all so clearly real and it renews my confidence that some things in this hobby that are "perceived" are in fact "real". I won't venture to guess what percentage, but if only 20% was real and the rest was in my head, I would still be a happy camper.  Also, yesterday I was mostly moving between 1 and 4 o'clock on the volume dial during my listening, now I am running 12 noon to 2 o'clock.  I am wondering if that is just do to the fuller range up top or if the amp is just getting better at delivering current into the headphones and has in fact gotten a smidge louder.  Is that even possible?



My has also be running for about 2 days and I feel a slight difference in the sound stage it is bigger and it is become a little bit of a detail crazy


----------



## stuartmc

I think I agree with you guys that keeping one thread for the good ship Gustard is probably the way to go.  Their amp and dac are so similar in build and sonic characteristics that I think it makes sense to talk about them together. In that spirit, I offer up the Gustard Swabbie's guide to Sea Legs, otherwise known as case feet and resonate tuning.
  
 So we had a major snow storm, and I had time to do a mod that I have been thinking about for several weeks.  Back in the day, I used to critically damp the cabinets of preamps, amps, transports and dacs.  I found that adding damping material of various density would change the resonant frequency of the cabinet, the attached pcb and the various parts soldered on it.  I even played with the Marigo audio tuning dots that you place on top of electolytic capacitors. In many instances, this would effect things in the audible range and actually change the sound you heard coming out of the loudspeakers.  I found that the best way to do this and also experience the benefits of micro-vibration damping, was to play with the feet of the  component.  I had a pal named DJ Casser who owned a company called Black Diamond Racing.  DJ was the carbon fiber king for all kinds of sailboat and automobile racing parts. He was also an audiophile, so it didn't take him much convincing to produce carbon fiber stuff for audio applications.  DJ created a bunch of stuff at my request and I got to play with it to my heart's content.  To make a long story short, DJ produced various carbon fiber cones of various densities that could be used as feet for components and loudspeakers. The resonant frequency was different for each class of  carbon mix he used, so I had cones that were quite hard, his type 1, ones that were relatively soft, his type 3, and the ones that fell right in the middle, not surprisingly, his type 2.   DJ also made shelves made entirely of carbon fiber that were excellent for mechanically isolating components.  Now comes the Gustard fun.....
  
 I didn't like the look or feels of the plastic feet on the X12 and X10 (they are exactly the same, by the way), so I decided it was time to give DJ's cones a shot and see if they would improve the tone and stage focus of each. In the past, this was always the prized benefit when you got the critical damping and mechanical isolation right - Images would become more focused and the bass and lower midrange would sound less bloated. Here is a shot of the Gustard plastic feet next to a black diamond cone ---

  
 The Gustard feet may look like they have a metal sleeve, but its actually all plastic, except for the hard rubber insert on the bottom side.  The black diamond cones have a hole in the middle for a screw-in insert.  This hole was quite a bit larger than the tiny screws used to attach the standard plastic feet, so there was no way I could screw them in without reaming out the existing case holes.  As it turned out, when I put the little screws back into the case without the plastic feet, the heads fit almost perfectly inside the cones' hole and acually helped to center them.  Again, long story short, but I played around with all three kinds of cones before hand and determined that I liked the Type 3's best. I also played around with various adhesives and tapes to attach the cones and concluded that a 3M double sided adhesive tape ( about 1.5mm thick) worked best and warmed things up just a little bit as compared to no tape, or some very thin stuff I had.  When  I attached the cones with this stuff, it was in essence a constrained layer damping.

  
 Its very easy to unscrew the stock feet, but I have to warn you about something I discovered the hard way.  All of the screws come out easily and are just tapped into tiny threads in the case, all except one.  In both the H10 and X12, the one foot closest to power IEC socket has a little nut on the inside and when you unscrew it, the darn nut rattles around inside the case.  You just can't have that, for fear of shorting something out on the board, and as it turns out, said nut also is used as the chassis ground for the IEC socket. So now we must open up the case and re-attach that pesky ground nut.
  

  
 So this is my X12 and X10 with the top half of the clam shell case removed. Pictures don't do this justice guys.  The build of each is a thing of beauty! You can tell that they are most definitely siblings.
  
 Here is that little ground nut ----

  
 As you can see, it is in identical locations on both.  So with that fixed we close up the cases and added the carbon cone feet ---
  

  
  
 I think they look kinda sexy, but hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I wouldn't do this just for looks.  When I was all finished, I used a few more cones and DJ's carbon fiber shelf  to create a compact environment for my bedside headphone gear.
  

  
  
  
  
 That's the Rega Apollo-R on top serving as transport with the Aune S16 next to it. This setup made it very easy to do A-B comparisons between the Aune and Gustard DACs. So What was the net result of all of this tweeking?  I found that i got the same results that I did so many times in the past - images were slightly more focused and the bass and lower midrange tightened up noticeably - less bloat and less overhang.  If any of you are skeptical of this sort of thing- and you should be -  I urge you to play around with some damping material and different feet.  You can experiment by just putting them next to the stock feet and see if you hear any difference.  I did this numerous times before I settled on the more permanent application.  Of course this is entirely reversible, should I wish to upgrade to the X20 and sell my X12.
  
 Hope you guys enjoyed this little show and tell.


----------



## Schopenhauer

The first serious headphones I got – unless you count both variations of firstgen the MOMENTUM – were MrSpeakers’ Mad Dogs (MDs). This was after the Alpha Dogs (ADs) had been introduced. Certainly there were times in the lead up to my buying the MDs when I considered going whole hog, as it were, getting the ADs instead of the MDs. I was more reasonable back then; now, I package an item together with its first upgrade. If I’m reasonably confident I’ll like the standard, that’s reason to be confident, all things considered, I’ll like the deluxe. So I pick the latter and that saves me money in the long run. Or so I tell myself. 
  
 The MDs are a great headphone, especially for the price. My experience is limited, of course, but I think they’re about the best you can do for 299USD. And the fact that Dan offers an upgrade path including the ADs is all the more reason to consider the MDs. For the time being, upgrades to the flagship Alpha Primes are on hold until Dan figures out the right way to do them. I’m certainly signing up for an upgrade once they’re available. If it turns out that uprgrades in this case simply aren’t feasible, I may very well buy the Prime outright. I’m that confident in what Dan is doing.*
  
 But I want to say something about the AD + H10 pairing. Sharing some of my general thoughts on the AD should indicate what I think the H10 is capable of. Someone earlier on this thread said that a new flagship headamp from Gustard is in the offing. If that’s the case, then I may very well make the upgrade. I’m that confident in what Gustard is doing. 
  
 It’s by now obvious that the H10 is a little ridiculous with planars. I haven’t heard another headamp with such a vicegrip on this sort of driver. One of the things I’ve always loved about planars is that, in contrast to many of the dynamic models I’ve heard, the headphone’s SPL can often outstrip its volume setting. In this way, you can get plenty of slam without pushing the volume to the point at which distortion becomes noticeable. Usually to achieve a similar effect with dynamic drivers one turns to closed cups, which – according to the lore – tends to compromise overall sound quality.
  
 The ADs sound like what you’d get by putting a planar driver in a cup that’s supposed to mimic the strengths of planar drivers. Imagine a planar headphone perfectly mimicking a planar headphone. I don’t mean that negatively. Two of the oft vaunted strengths of planar drives are bass and female vocals. I want to appeal to a particular album as showing that the Alpha Dog + H10 pairing excels in these areas – Data Romance’s _Others_. Auditory Canvas’ “Solace of Remembrance”, a test track taken from their _Earth_ by MrSpeakers&Co. over on the ADs’ thread, is exemplary. The track, featuring Shawni, efficiently showcases the ADs’ virtues.

 Take, for example, timbre – something for which I admire the HE-500 + H10 pairing. To a certain extent, I think of the ADs as a closed back HE-500, i.e. an HE-500 with more slam and isolation. Tonality is also perceptibly similar, with each having a dip in the mid bass and some sparkle in the treble. This makes the ADs well suited for dubstep, given their, so to speak, “dogmatically vigilant” mids.  What can often become glare and/or etch in the upper mids with the T50RP driver is absent here. Instead you get an incredible sense of presence because of an emphasis in the upper mids renders the timbre of female vocals so realistically. Voicing is perhaps the central ingredient in a headphone’s timbre. Because the ADs’ voicing is top notch, the overall perceived timbre excels. 
  
 If an amp is transparent, then it’s supposed to give you your headphones as they are. If they’re colored, the sound will be colored; if they’re neutral, the sound will be neutral. The H10 is transparent. If your headphone sounds great, the H10 doesn’t get in the way of the greatness. In fact, it makes them sound all the greater. And that means, in this case, that the H10 is _itself_ a great piece of kit. Consider the O2. While it’s adept at getting out of the way of your headphones, there’s only so much you can wring from e.g. the HE-500 with the O2. The HE-500s are exceptional headphones, but they sound better with the H10 than they do with the O2.
  
 It’s difficult to present all at once and accurately what you think are an amps strengths. So I’m happy to answer specific questions about this pairing. As a DAC, I paired the HRT microStreamer exclusively with the H10. My current second-string chain is an E18 feeding a Cayin C5. Either way, the source material is primarily Tidal and sometimes Spotify. 
  
 * In point of fact, I didn’t upgrade from the MDs to the ADs but bought the latter outright. I no longer own the MDs. They were sold before purchasing the ADs.


----------



## Zakin

I just realized Stuart that you live in New York, I should just visit you sometime and try out half the gear on my wishlist at the moment. I live just in Maine.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> I think I agree with you guys that keeping one thread for the good ship Gustard is probably the way to go.  Their amp and dac are so similar in build and sonic characteristics that I think it makes sense to talk about them together. In that spirit, I offer up the Gustard Swabbie's guide to Sea Legs, otherwise known as case feet and resonate tuning.
> 
> So we had a major snow storm, and I had time to do a mod that I have been thinking about for several weeks.  Back in the day, I used to critically damp the cabinets of preamps, amps, transports and dacs.  I found that adding damping material of various density would change the resonant frequency of the cabinet, the attached pcb and the various parts soldered on it.  I even played with the Marigo audio tuning dots that you place on top of electolytic capacitors. In many instances, this would effect things in the audible range and actually change the sound you heard coming out of the loudspeakers.  I found that the best way to do this and also experience the benefits of micro-vibration damping, was to play with the feet of the  component.  I had a pal named DJ Casser who owned a company called Black Diamond Racing.  DJ was the carbon fiber king for all kinds of sailboat and automobile racing parts. He was also an audiophile, so it didn't take him much convincing to produce carbon fiber stuff for audio applications.  DJ created a bunch of stuff at my request and I got to play with it to my heart's content.  To make a long story short, DJ produced various carbon fiber cones of various densities that could be used as feet for components and loudspeakers. The resonant frequency was different for each class of  carbon mix he used, so I had cones that were quite hard, his type 1, ones that were relatively soft, his type 3, and the ones that fell rigtht in the middle, not surprisingly, his type 2.   DJ also made shelves made entirely of carbon fiber that were excellent for mechanically isolating components.  Now comes the Gustard fun.....
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the knowledge! - This is a seriously sexy setup. And it's your bedside rig? I'd never sleep if that were by my bed. I'll have to consider this mod. 
  
 And thanks for the pictures! I'll try to post pictures of my current Gustard setup when I give my impressions of the HE-6. Incidentally, it should arrive tomorrow.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> Thanks for the knowledge! - This is a seriously sexy setup. And it's your bedside rig? I'd never sleep if that were by my bed. I'll have to consider this mod.
> 
> And thanks for the pictures! I'll try to post pictures of my current Gustard setup when I give my impressions of the HE-6. Incidentally, it should arrive tomorrow.




My HE-560 should arrive tomorrow too, provided the weather cooperates. Definitely post up some pictures. The good ship Gustard needs some more sexy pinups!


----------



## Arnotts

Hey guys!
  
 Firstly, I'd like to say thanks a LOT to all of you that have contributed to this thread. Everyone that has been a noble guinea pig and has posted their impressions, it's very much appreciated. You guys are actually helping thousands of people that look all across the internet for information regarding the best quality equipment for the price.
  
 I've just sent a message to a seller on AliExpress to see if they're willing to sell a Gustard H10 for $280.50 (it looks like a few were sold at this price).
  
 I currently own Q701's, HE400's, Ultrasone Pro 900's, Ultrasone Pro 750's, Alessandro MS1's, DT880's and AD700's. I've also got a pair of LCD-2's (fazors) and AIAIAI TMA-1 Studio Young Guru's coming in shortly.
  
 In terms of my experience with various amps/DACs, I've got an Asus Xonar Essence STX soundcard (generally considered very good value for $200) and a Matrix M-Stage amp and a Matrix M-Stage DAC stack. I've also got a vanilla Geek Pulse ordered, but that probably won't arrive until March/April.
  
 The M-Stage amp, while considered good value for money (as it's also a Chinese clone of a well regarded amp, the Lehmann Black Cube Linear), doesn't seem to provide the optimal amount of current to drive the LCD-2's. This made me do a bit of preliminary research on whether there was anything that could provide enough power for the LCD-2's (and other planars) while still being good value, while I wait for the Geek Pulse. To my delight, I found this thread! In all honesty, the H10 looks significantly more powerful than the Pulse, and I kind of wish I knew about this earlier...
  
 Either way, I'll be happy to add my own impressions and do some comparisons with my other amps/DACs once my unit arrives. Providing more impressions to the wealth of knowledge that already exists in this thread should help even more people determine whether this amp (and other Gustard products) are worth purchasing


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> I think I agree with you guys that keeping one thread for the good ship Gustard is probably the way to go.  Their amp and dac are so similar in build and sonic characteristics that I think it makes sense to talk about them together. In that spirit, I offer up the Gustard Swabbie's guide to Sea Legs, otherwise known as case feet and resonate tuning.
> 
> So we had a major snow storm, and I had time to do a mod that I have been thinking about for several weeks.  Back in the day, I used to critically damp the cabinets of preamps, amps, transports and dacs.  I found that adding damping material of various density would change the resonant frequency of the cabinet, the attached pcb and the various parts soldered on it.  I even played with the Marigo audio tuning dots that you place on top of electolytic capacitors. In many instances, this would effect things in the audible range and actually change the sound you heard coming out of the loudspeakers.  I found that the best way to do this and also experience the benefits of micro-vibration damping, was to play with the feet of the  component.  I had a pal named DJ Casser who owned a company called Black Diamond Racing.  DJ was the carbon fiber king for all kinds of sailboat and automobile racing parts. He was also an audiophile, so it didn't take him much convincing to produce carbon fiber stuff for audio applications.  DJ created a bunch of stuff at my request and I got to play with it to my heart's content.  To make a long story short, DJ produced various carbon fiber cones of various densities that could be used as feet for components and loudspeakers. The resonant frequency was different for each class of  carbon mix he used, so I had cones that were quite hard, his type 1, ones that were relatively soft, his type 3, and the ones that fell right in the middle, not surprisingly, his type 2.   DJ also made shelves made entirely of carbon fiber that were excellent for mechanically isolating components.  Now comes the Gustard fun.....
> 
> ...



Nice setup. Quick question is it ok to have the headphones always hooked up to the amplifier or should I remove the headphones when I'm not using the amplifier.


----------



## stuartmc

I leave mine plugged in most of the time. It certainly won't hurt your phones. The way I see it, if you are frequently fooling with the headphone jack, you may loosen the mecanical connection over time. As you can see in my open lid photo of the H10, you can access the headphone jack internally and probably retighten the three part connector, but why bother when you can just leave it plugged in.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> I leave mine plugged in most of the time. It certainly won't hurt your phones. The way I see it, if you are frequently fooling with the headphone jack, you may loosen the mecanical connection over time.


 
 Okay thanks


----------



## stuartmc

Greetings Arnotts. It's gratifying to know that the G3's have been helpful. That would be the "Gathering of Gustard Groupies" lol.


----------



## lukeap69

G3 - sounds like a boy band.


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> G3 - sounds like a boy band.




Ha ha, you may be right about that. Perhaps I should stick with the nautical theme and just call us all Swabbies on the SS Gustard.


----------



## lukeap69

Swabbies aint bad. LOL


----------



## zilch0md

Hey Stuart,
  
 Quote:


stuartmc said:


> [snip]
> 
> So What was the net result of all of this tweeking?  I found that i got the same results that I did so many times in the past - images were slightly more focused and the bass and lower midrange tightened up noticeably - less bloat and less overhang.  If any of you are skeptical of this sort of thing- and you should be -  I urge you to play around with some damping material and different feet.
> 
> [snip]


 
  
 I really appreciate the way you've been around the block, so to speak, with some of the more esoteric tweaks that I believe in personally, but which can be eschewed by a lot of folks out there.  As a disclaimer, let me say that I've done a whole lot of research into dampening/isolating - a topic I've pursued for several months, now - but I've not yet taken the plunge to start experimenting with various materials myself.
  
 Given that my contribution to this topic cans only be theoretical, rather than empirical, I'd like to jump in with both feet and ask you what you think about this idea I've come up with (but not yet tried):
  
 I'm thinking of using numerous, fairly "weak" cone springs that look more or less like this example...
  

  
 ... to elevate each component such that the weight of a given component will cause each spring to compress to no less than 90% of its relaxed height. I would just keep inserting springs under the component, distributing them as uniformly as possible, until 10% compression is achieved with all of them.  (I would mount them inverted vs. the way that spring is shown in the photo.)
  
 My hypothesis is that this array of springs, all compressed to fully 90% of their relaxed height, would, for headphone use (not loudspeaker use), provide isolation from ground vibrations that have both vertical and horizontal vectors - actually, against vectors from any direction.  It seems to me that a lot of isolation solutions sold for audio handle all vectors equally well.
  
 I wouldn't want to use such an array of springs with loudspeakers, as I fear they could resonate easily, creating a hum of the own, but for headphone use, in an otherwise "silent" room, I suspect they would do a very good job at isolating components from stuff that comes up through the floor.
  
 What do you think?  Have you ever tried anything like this, before?
  
 Also...  Too much reading has convinced me that DACs need isolation more than any other component, because their clock oscillators can actually be skewed by ultrasonic frequencies, as well as harmonics of sonic and sub-sonic frequencies - causing jitter.  What say ye, here?
  
 Thank you!
  
 Mike


----------



## Greggo

Well, after running the amp in further all last night and today, I am not sure there is much left to look for in terms of ongoing improvements but I welcome them of course even though I certainly don't need them at this point.  This is an awesome headphone amp.  Everything just sounds great, full spectrum, wide open, smooth and detailed.  I really wouldn't even know how to ask for anything more here.
  
 Here is my Gustard H10 living in harmony with my NAD D1050
  

  
 and here is my little home studio desk set up at the moment... will have my LSR308 monitors any day now, and getting ready to make a final run to shop for cables in the next week or two to finally get everything connected up. Currently on deck is the loaner HE-560 from the West Coast tour, man I really wish I had the coin to just order a new one for myself right now but it will have to wait a bit. I am not tempted at all by the Audeze EL-8, the HE-560 is definitely the one for me.
  

  
 I am thinking that eventually I will have a U12 sitting here, with one output running over to the stereo system on the other wall...
  

  
 and the other output running to a new component stand to place next to my listening chair that would hold the H10 along with a future X12 or X20. As I mentioned earlier, the Senn HD700 is my current TOTL headphone and it is sounding really good with the H10, so I need to get the HD600 in there and see if I think the same thing about it, or if the Gustard just likes the 150 Ohms of the HD700 better than the 300 Ohm cans.  I have a Grado at work that I will bring home this Friday to see if it benefits from the H10 at all.  I had the Focal Spirit Pro on a little earlier and it was able to step up a notch and show it's appreciation for the H10's abilities.
  

  
 Here is a good view of my basement family/music room... still a work in progress but even at this partial state, it is a dream come true for me as I have been wanting to do something like this for many years now but never had the time or funds to get there. Eventually that tacky picture on the wall comes down and some big windows replace half the wall to look into the next room which is where my son has his drum kit set up. This will be our own little version of a real music studio.
  

  
 You can see a few CDs piled on a round table next to the listening chair, that is where I often have my laptop as the primary source for any headphone listening.  With the Gustard components I will eventually have what to me feels like a world class headphone system and when I eventually get the heat and AC balanced right down here it will be a nice place to spend some serious time just listening to music and getting energized.


----------



## stuartmc

zilch0md said:


> What do you think?  Have you ever tried anything like this, before?
> 
> Also...  Too much reading has convinced me that DACs need isolation more than any other component, because their clock oscillators can actually be skewed by ultrasonic frequencies, as well as harmonics of sonic and sub-sonic frequencies - causing jitter.  What say ye, here?
> 
> ...


 
  
 OK, I'll see you a cool multivector spring isolation concept and raise you ummmm.....two Shakti stones!
  

  
 I'm now playing with these on top of the two Gustard pieces and using the Shakti stones to support the carbon shelf. Should be interesting because in addition to there EMI absorbing properties, they will mass load the Gustard cases and will slightly alter the resonant frequency that I have carefully tuned with my carbon feet and constrained layer damping.
  
 I haven't used anything that uses springs in quite the way you have suggested, but I have read some discussions on it.  The closest thing I have is the Thompson Seismic Sinks. They are equipment shelfs that have a rubber inflatable bladder inside that essentially floats the top plate..kind of like spring loading and multi-vector damping. I also have a large Bright Star Audio Sandbox that I have used to isolate turntables and transports. Also some of their Little Rocks for mass loading.   I have a whole closet full of various damping blocks, spiked racks, and cones of every variety.
  
 I absolutley agree that in modern digital systems, the DAC is the most prone to all kinds of interference - vibration, emi, the works. CD transports come in a close second.  You would probably laugh if I told you my complete CD playing ritual.  Im really channeling the late Enid Lumley, God rest her lovely audiophile soul.


----------



## Joong

There is no comparison between Gustard X12 and Yulong D18 or DA8?
 I ordered U12, and considering an upgrade from my Conductor DAC section to One of those Dacs.
 Probably U12 improves the SQ of Conductor to another level on the USB section.
 I am not sure that X12 is an upgrade.


----------



## stuartmc

joong said:


> There is no comparison between Gustard X12 and Yulong D18 or DA8?
> I ordered U12, and considering an upgrade from my Conductor DAC section to One of those Dacs.
> Probably U12 improves the SQ of Conductor to another level on the USB section.
> I am not sure that X12 is an upgrade.




Sorry I can't help here. If I could get a loaner of one of the Yulong DACs, I'd be happy to give some comparison commentary.


----------



## Joong

They might be afraid that you have got the Yulong and found it might be equal or inferior to X-12 which is a new player and less expensive.
 Or They, Yulong should get you one if they are confident of their quality.


----------



## Zakin

No offense, but pretty sure Yulong themselves hardly knows about head-fi unfortunately. I believe Project86 bought all of his units from Grant and couldn't get loaners. Although to be fair, Gustard probably knows head-fi just about as well. We're just not their expected market, I'm sure both manufacturers sell far more units in mainland China.


----------



## stuartmc

I was only thinking of some altruistic soul on head-fi who might have one.. I wasn't really being serious. Lol


----------



## Lorspeaker

hi guys...hows the performance of this amp with the HE6? ( didnt go thru this thread thoroughly..)


----------



## Schopenhauer

lorspeaker said:


> hi guys...hows the performance of this amp with the HE6? ( didnt go thru this thread thoroughly..)


 
 Just got the HE-6 today. It's good. I'll say more later. It ain't bad.
  
 EDIT: The real surprise is the Cayin C5 + HE-6 pairing.


----------



## Lorspeaker

schopenhauer said:


> Just got the HE-6 today. It's good. I'll say more later. It ain't bad.


 
  
  
 wat a timing.... give it a good listen n do post your findings bro !! 
 ( have been mothballing the HE6..too lazy to fix up the spkr amp from 20 feet away..haizz)
  
  
  
CAYIN C5....that little thang??
no grit...no hummm...deal silent background..? u positive !?


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> [snip]
> 
> I have a whole closet full of various damping blocks, spiked racks, and cones of every variety.
> 
> I absolutley agree that in modern digital systems, the DAC is the most prone to all kinds of interference - vibration, emi, the works. CD transports come in a close second.  You would probably laugh if I told you my complete CD playing ritual.  Im really channeling the late Enid Lumley, God rest her lovely audiophile soul.


 
  
 Thanks Stuart!
  
 I think if I ever went into your closet, I might never come out!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Huh?
  
 But seriously, that's the reason I've never allowed myself to get started with isolation experiments - it would be a huge money sink, filling the closet with stuff I might never use again.
  
 Mike


----------



## Schopenhauer

lorspeaker said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > Just got the HE-6 today. It's good. I'll say more later. It ain't bad.
> ...


 
 I'm certainly going to give it a good listen! And I'll post reflections like with the HE-500s and Alpha Dogs. 
  
 While the C5 is small, it drives the **** out of headphones. It's not the last piece of kit you'll buy. But god****. This sounds good. That's all I'll say.


----------



## natra084

does anybody know who makes this gustard amp\dac I can't find anything on the web and does anybody know how I can get rid of jitter or USB noise.


----------



## lomonosoff

What OP-AMP are at H10?


----------



## swannie007

Look at Gustard U12


----------



## stuartmc

zilch0md said:


> Thanks Stuart!
> 
> I think if I ever went into your closet, I might never come out!
> 
> ...


 
 If I hadn't gotten a lot of this stuff free or on reviewer accomodation, I certainly wouldn't have delved so deeply.  I was kind of shocked when I looked up the prices on this stuff.  It really irritates me when I see what is in essence, price gouging in highend audio. It was one of several reasons that I became an audio hermit for well over a decade.  My friend DJ Casser at Black Diamond was one of the few that was reasonable about it. DJ passed from lung cancer a few years ago. He was quite a guy and I miss him.


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> does anybody know who makes this gustard amp\dac I can't find anything on the web and does anybody know how I can get rid of jitter or USB noise.


 
 Im pretty sure the manufacturer is in Taipei, Taiwan*.   *The one seller that seems to have them first and also had them without the "Gustard" label is the guy from Vintage Audio Lab who happens to be in Taiwan.  We are all Polychen fans because he hasn't dropped the ball a single time with any of us.  By the way, Polychen on Ebay is actually Wang Shuzeng and he has a company called Fanmusic as part of Shenzhen Longruixiang Trade Co., Ltd in the city of Shenzhen, Guangdong Province, PR. China.


----------



## lomonosoff

*stuartmc  *Tell me what is still standing inside an opamp amplifier H10.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> Im pretty sure the manufacturer is in Taipei, Taiwan*.   *The one seller that seems to have them first and also had them without the "Gustard" label is the guy from Vintage Audio Lab who happens to be in Taiwan.  We are all Polychen fans because hasn't dropped the ball a single time with any of us.  By the way, Polychen on Ebay is actually Wang Shuzeng and he has a company called Fanmusic as part of Shenzhen Longruixiang Trade Co., Ltd in the city of Shenzhen, Guangdong Province, PR. China.


 
 Thanks, how about the USB problem do you have any solution


----------



## stuartmc

Sorry, no USB solution for you since I don't use usb input at all.


----------



## FlySweep

natra084 said:


> Thanks, how about the USB problem do you have any solution


 
  
 Schiit Wyrd and/or the Gustard U12.


----------



## natra084

flysweep said:


> Schiit Wyrd and/or the Gustard U12.



I'm sorry if I sound like an idiot now how do i hook this up to my amp (U12)


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> Sorry, no USB solution for you since I don't use usb input at all.


 
  
 Yay!   I'm done with USB, too, at least as a desktop source.


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> I'm sorry if I sound like an idiot now how do i hook this up to my amp (U12)


 
 You would go from your computer's USB output into the U12, then from U12 you can go optical or digital coax into your DAC (The ifi nano iDSD?) and then into your H10 amp.  However, if you like the ifi stuff you could look at the iPurifier if you feel like you are having trouble between your computer and your iDSD.  If you are in fact using the iDSD then the purifier or Schiit Wyrd would be your only choice since you only have USB input on your DAC anyways.  You want, possibly, a USB purifier and not a USB to SPDIF converter.
  
 You may also want to try different USB ports on your computer if you have more than one, they are not all equal, and you may want to try a different USB cable as you may have a termination defect causing noise or problems of some sort.
  
 Are you sure jitter or USB noise is the problem you are experiencing?


----------



## Joong

lomonosoff said:


> *stuartmc  *Tell me what is still standing inside an opamp amplifier H10.


 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/435#post_11202837


----------



## Joong

gutekbull said:


> I changed the 2 units. OPA134PA on AD797ANZ.
> I would recommend
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Gutekbull,

 Your changing opamps are Encouraging, from opa134 and ne5532 to Ad797anz and Muses 02.
 They are one per channel I think.
 Those opamps in Ebay are original? I am afraid.
 I bought from http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Pieces-AD797AR-SOIC-to-DIP-Op-amp-replace-NE5534-/120757516362?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1db5784a
 Those are too cheap to believe.
 Could you recommend that I can use these?


----------



## Joong

lorspeaker said:


> hi guys...hows the performance of this amp with the HE6? ( didnt go thru this thread thoroughly..)


 

 It is not bad, but you can go with Toppings Tp60, which seems slightly better than H10, which is slightly better than Conductor in power.
 With H10, He-6 sounds a bit bright, and you can go as loud as possible.


----------



## stuartmc

joong said:


> It is not bad, but you can go with Toppings Tp60, which seems slightly better than H10, which is slightly better than Conductor in power.
> With H10, He-6 sounds a bit bright, and you can go as loud as possible.


 
 That is if you like the sound of Tripath Class D.  Quite familiar with it, having reviewed the Bel Canto Evo amplifiers.


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> You would go from your computer's USB output into the U12, then from U12 you can go optical or digital coax into your DAC (The ifi nano iDSD?) and then into your H10 amp.  However, if you like the ifi stuff you could look at the iPurifier if you feel like you are having trouble between your computer and your iDSD.  If you are in fact using the iDSD then the purifier or Schiit Wyrd would be your only choice since you only have USB input on your DAC anyways.  You want, possibly, a USB purifier and not a USB to SPDIF converter.
> 
> You may also want to try different USB ports on your computer if you have more than one, they are not all equal, and you may want to try a different USB cable as you may have a termination defect causing noise or problems of some sort.
> 
> Are you sure jitter or USB noise is the problem you are experiencing?



the noise that I'm talking about is when you turn up the volume on your amp and you don't listen to music you will hear some noise and with my tube amplifier that noise gets much worse.


----------



## teofilrocks

Man, I'm selling my gear and settling on a used Violectric V200, and now I find this thread! Argh~~


----------



## stuartmc

Here is my Wednesday update ----
  

  
 Notice the difference?  The Shakti Stones replaced the shelf supporting carbon cones. The emi absorbing and mass loading properties of the stones turned out to be beneficial, so I am sticking with this setup for the bedside rig.  The other addition in this shot is the newly arrived HE-560.  I have been running them for three days now and have applied all the mods that I did to the HE-400i, including grill mod, fazzor mod and inside shelf liner and pads mod.  This pair came from Head-fier "Cute" and already had some hours on them, though Cute tells me it was much less than 100 hours.
  
 I'm just amazed at how good the 560's sound.  They are most definitely in the same family as the 400i, but appreciably better in almost every parameter that matters to me - wider and deeper stage, better image separation, finer detail, more extension in the bottom and top end with a more balanced frequency response in between.  The H10 is making passionate love to them....get a room already! lol.  The synergy would appear to be even better than with my 400i.   These cans are definitely a large step up and I will undoubtedly build and tweek my system around them.  
  
 I have done another A-B session with the Aune S16 compared to the Gustard  X12 and these new cans have pretty much sealed the deal.  I'll be keeping the X12.  I previously identified the S16 as having a more lean and airy presentation. That didn't sound too bad with the 400i because thier midbass and lower midrange was a little bumped up. The 560 is much more neutral through this critical range, so the S16 ends up sounding just a little too thin.  The X12's more extended bottom end, moist midrange and dynamic capabilities play perfectly with the 560's sound.  The extra resolving power of the 560 also shows off the finer details revealed by the X12.  I will be doing more critical listening over the next few days, but I doubt that these impressions will change.


----------



## Zakin

Stuart would you say the X12 lies on the analytical side, or is warm and smooth over while still exposing the details? Not a fan of the typical overly bright hash that can come out of Sabre poorly implemented. It sounds like it does things right, possibly better than Audio-GD as those tend to lie a bit more analytical. Much appreciate all your hard work Stuart.


----------



## stuartmc

zakin said:


> Stuart would you say the X12 lies on the analytical side, or is warm and smooth over while still exposing the details? Not a fan of the typical overly bright hash that can come out of Sabre poorly implemented. It sounds like it does things right, possibly better than Audio-GD as those tend to lie a bit more analytical. Much appreciate all your hard work Stuart.




Very early in my experience with the X12, I had identified a little hardness in the treble and a somewhat flattened soundstage. I'm happy to report that break in took care of all of that. Probably a little emi isolation helped too. It now is almost the antithesis of analytical. You hear all the detail and the low level ambient cues, but it is all quite relaxed and natural. 

I too was worried about the alleged Sabre glare and had weighed getting a Wolfson DAC to compare to the Aune. My Rega Apollo R provided that comparison, so I was willing to roll the dice with the X12. In my system, the X12 is every bit as relaxed and musical as the Rega Wolfson or the Aune S16, but with better dynamics, greater frequency extension and finer resolution. That's a winner for me.


----------



## Zakin

stuartmc said:


> Very early in my experience with the X12, I had identified a little hardness in the treble and a somewhat flattened soundstage. I'm happy to report that break in took care of all of that. Probably a little emi isolation helped too. It now is almost the antithesis of analytical. You hear all the detail and the low level ambient cues, but it is all quite relaxed and natural.
> 
> I too was worried about the alleged Sabre glare and had weighed getting a Wolfson DAC to compare to the Aune. My Rega Apollo R provided that comparison, so I was willing to roll the dice with the X12. In my system, the X12 is every bit as relaxed and musical as the Rega Wolfson or the Aune S16, but with better dynamics, greater frequency extension and finer resolution. That's a winner for me.


 
 You may have just entirely smashed my idea of getting a Yulong stack right there, sounds like they have similar(ish) sound goals. I still adore the look of the full Yulong stack aesthetically, but it all runs north of $2,000 bucks or so. If I can get something comparable or possibly better for half the price, that's pretty superb. Also what is the unit in the top right of your picture? Can't quite make it out.


----------



## natra084

has anybody listen to x9 or x10 and if so how do they sound


----------



## stuartmc

Top right is the Rega Apollo R CD player. I'm using it as a transport, as does Rega when they run it with their outboard DAC.

Interestingly, Gustard's add copy makes claims that it is the smoothest most analog sounding Sabre application. I now believe that is not just advertising puffery.


----------



## Zakin

Curious, Stuart have you seen anywhere actual measurement on the Gustard X12? Measurements aren't the end all, but the H10's measurements, power, distortion, crossfeed all easily compete well into the 1000$+ range of amplifiers. But, for whatever reason I can't seem to find any measurements for the X12. Would be fun to compare it to X-Sabre/DA8 and see how it stands up.


----------



## stuartmc

The measurements on most DACs is pretty meaningless. They usually site the stats for the DAC chip they use, so if they are both using the same Sabre chip, it's going to be really close. If you look at the eBay listings for the x12 you will find audio precision graphs and SNR data that is about the same as shown for any other Sabre dac including what I could find on the Yulong D8. For instance the frequency response for the x12 is -0.15 db 20- 20khz, while the D8 is -0.20db 20-30khz. The THD for the X12 is .00027% while the D8 is .0003%. Dynamic range is >130 for both and that is the spec for the Sabre chip. Xlr output is 5v for the X12 and 4.2v for the D8.

Do you see how meaningless this is? The difference in most of these measurements simply can not be heard. Things like overall jitter just aren't measured and reported by manufacturers and they would probably be equally meaningless to most of us.


----------



## Zakin

Actually those numbers are fairly above average compared to a lot of Sabre implementations at this price range, that's exactly what I was curious of and what separates the X12 from having a poor implementation I suspect. Also I know measurements don't mean a lot, but you can still be suspect if something seems jarringly off I've learned.


----------



## Lorspeaker

If i am just using usb out of a McAir..which model should i use...X12 or U12 as a dac?
 ( straight into my tube amps..no need for additional bookshelfspkrs duty )


----------



## Gibalok

Will there be considerable upgrade from Matrix Quattro amp to Gustard H10?
I also considering option to grab Metrum Aurix amp Used.


----------



## lukeap69

lorspeaker said:


> If i am just using usb out of a McAir..which model should i use...X12 or U12 as a dac?
> ( straight into my tube amps..no need for additional bookshelfspkrs duty )




I thought the U12 is a digital interface? Can it also be used as a standalone DAC?


----------



## Gibalok

lukeap69 said:


> I thought the U12 is a digital interface? Can it also be used as a standalone DAC?


 
 NO


----------



## natra084

can I change the voltage on the H10


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> can I change the voltage on the H10




Yes you can. If you look at my inside photos of both the H10 and X12, you will see switches between the two transformers. They change the voltage of each from 110 to 220.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> Yes you can. If you look at my inside photos of both the H10 and X12, you will see switches between the two transformers. They change the voltage of each from 110 to 220.


 
 ok is it signed with the label there is says 110 or 220


----------



## natra084

natra084 said:


> ok is it signed with the label there is says 110 or 220


 
 I check it's okay.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> Yes you can. If you look at my inside photos of both the H10 and X12, you will see switches between the two transformers. They change the voltage of each from 110 to 220.


 
 I'm thinking returning the nano I'm buying the x12 do have problems with noise turn the volume up to Max on your H10 at +6 gain


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> I'm thinking returning the nano I'm buying the x12 do have problems with noise turn the volume up to Max on your H10 at +6 gain


 
 With my headphones, the X12 is dead quiet when I have the H10 at maximum volume. I happen to be running at +6 now with the HE-560's because they are a little less efficient than the 400i's.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> With my headphones, the X12 is dead quiet when I have the H10 at maximum volume. I happen to be running at +6 now with the HE-560's because they are a little less efficient than the 400i's.



So ther is no need to buy U12


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> So ther is no need to buy U12


 

The standard x12 has a very good USB motherboard, so it probably won't be necessary. The U12 may provide a better USB interface, but you may not hear the difference


----------



## Greggo

Can't remember various opinions on the HD600 with this amp, but I will report mine anyways.  I am a very big fan of the HD600.  There is just something about it's balance and personality that sits very well with me.  Anyway, the H10 is able to push the HD600 well beyond what I have experienced to date on my combo units.  I have had some brief encounters with the Bottlehead Crack, and yes, it is a cracking good amp.  I remember it having a sense of body and measure of clarity that was very pleasing with both the HD600 and HD700.  This H10 pairing is very different, and to my ears and taste in sonics it is better.
  
 There is a blackness to the background that I find very interesting, a very clean canvas waiting for the music to apply it's colors, and when they do, they are vivid and smooth and both contiguous and continuous.  Everything just feels stitched together so well, and the personality of the HD600 that I love is not corrupted in any way, it is in fact for me improved in almost every way I could imagine.  The bass is firmer and stronger, there is no sense of veil, and the Sennheiser sense of politeness does not seem gratuitous in any way, it seems even more honest and truthful.
  
 Yes, the texture and dynamics of the HE-560 are not there, the exciting sense of immediacy, the intimacy, the extension is not there, and layers of detail are ever so slightly blurred and constrained by comparison, even though the HD600 imaging is for the most part typical here in terms of width and depth (or just a little bit of an illusion of depth, which is about all I hear on headphones).  It does take on a greater sense of specificity and a touch of dimensionality that I have not heard from my NAD D1050 or Meridian Explorer.  Going by memory I would say the former (specificity) is a touch better here than with the Crack, while it exceeds the H10 in the latter (dimensionality) quality.  Bunches and bunches of hyperbole here I know, so I will just give you the summary:  I really like it.  If it were not for the HD700 and HE-560, it would feel pretty dam close to an end game set up for me.  I would not be tempted to go down the tube path at all, the H10 gets the job done nicely.


----------



## stuartmc

Nicely stated Greggo. I also have the HD600 and they are quite lovely with the H10. If I hadn't heard the 400i and then the 560, I would have been very content with the Senns. They are now gathering dust because the HE-560 / H10 combination is so excruciatingly good that I can't bear to listen to anything else.


----------



## Greggo

Thanks Stuart.  Funny you mention that, I have the HE-560 on right now and they are just killing it.  I am bringing my rig into the office tomorrow to share with my colleagues in a mini Can Jam we organized for our office.  One of our guys is bringing his turntable and phono pre, so we are going to try that as a source and have some fun.
  
 I will be sending the HE-560 on to the next tour stop this weekend.  It will be hard to pack them up.  I can't honestly say they are clearly superior to the HD700 in all technicalities, but I find myself keeping them on my head longer even though the HD700 has better ergonomics.  This is such a great combo, I have to figure out how to buy a pair of HE-560 ASAP, and then bring an X12 home at some point to complete the picture.  If I am somehow able to pull that off, I am sure it will include a promise to my wife regarding all that is holy and to not buy anymore headgear for at least a year.  The NAD D1050 and a few headphones will definitely have to say goodbye and help raise a little cash as well.


----------



## lukeap69

An amp that does good with almost everything you throw at (and especially at this price) is something special. It could have been my main amp (or the most used amp) if Ragnarok didn't come into my life. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Holy Schiit! The RAG rocks! I am still using the SE connection (whilst waiting for my HD800's balanced cable) and the difference is, well, very noticeable. Now at 4 to 5 times the price, it should perform really well. I will say this though, the H10 is a an excellent amp and if you have a budget limit and probably not using an HD800, the H10 can go a long mile...


----------



## stuartmc

greggo said:


> I will be sending the HE-560 on to the next tour stop this weekend.  It will be hard to pack them up.  I can't honestly say they are clearly superior to the HD700 in all technicalities, but I find myself keeping them on my head longer even though the HD700 has better ergonomics.  This is such a great combo, I have to figure out how to buy a pair of HE-560 ASAP, and then bring an X12 home at some point to complete the picture.  If I am somehow able to pull that off, I am sure it will include a promise to my wife regarding all that is holy and to not buy anymore headgear for at least a year.  The NAD D1050 and a few headphones will definitely have to say goodbye and help raise a little cash as well.


 
  
 If you liked the loaner pair, wait till you here them with mods I did.  There is quite a lengthy thread on them over here -  http://www.head-fi.org/t/738912/he-560-enhancement-mod .   I did the mods to the HE-400i and when I listened to the stock 560's I thought they were only slightly better.  Once I did the same mods to the 560's, the performance gap widened significantly. IMHO, the mods take them to another level.


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> An amp that does good with almost everything you throw at (and especially at this price) is something special. It could have been my main amp (or the most used amp) if Ragnarok didn't come into my life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's what has made me such an enthusiastic crew member on the SS Gustard.  I came from that lonely place where all the highend gear was ridiculously expensive. Overblown prices and overblown egos just about ruined it for me.  I find the world of headphones and iem's to be refreshingly different.  I suppose I could go gonzo on this gear, but why climb back onto that wagon train when I can get such amazing performance from carefully chosen affordable products.   I tip my hat to the low cost over-achievers like Gustard.  
  
 I would love to audition the Ragnarok and I don't consider it to have an overblown price. In my world, $1699 isn't all that much for a SOTA amplifier. It just so happens that my bedside headphone setup has limited space and the Rag's form factor just won't work.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> That's what has made me such an enthusiastic crew member on the SS Gustard.  I came from that lonely place where all the highend gear was ridiculously expensive. Overblown prices and overblown egos just about ruined it for me.  I find the world of headphones and iem's to be refreshingly different.  I suppose I could go gonzo on this gear, but why climb back onto that wagon train when I can get such amazing performance from carefully chosen affordable products.   I tip my hat to the low cost over-achievers like Gustard.
> 
> I would love to audition the Ragnarok and I don't consider it to have an overblown price. In my world, $1699 isn't all that much for a SOTA amplifier. It just so happens that my bedside headphone setup has limited space and the Rag's form factor just won't work.


 
 Hi Stuart what does those three buttons on the front of the panel do on your x12


----------



## Zakin

I'm a bit curious not only of the supposed DAC X20 they have talked about briefly, but if they made a H20 alongside that, just where they could stand performance wise? I've a feeling they'd push the 800+ price range, but that'd certainly give others like Audio-GD and Yulong fine competition by the sounds of it.


----------



## natra084

Hi Stuart  I'm just about to drop the ball on this x12, just a quick question in your opinion this dac is not bright or harsh.


----------



## lukeap69

stuartmc said:


> That's what has made me such an enthusiastic crew member on the SS Gustard.  I came from that lonely place where all the highend gear was ridiculously expensive. Overblown prices and overblown egos just about ruined it for me.  I find the world of headphones and iem's to be refreshingly different.  I suppose I could go gonzo on this gear, but why climb back onto that wagon train when I can get such amazing performance from carefully chosen affordable products.   I tip my hat to the low cost over-achievers like Gustard.
> 
> I would love to audition the Ragnarok and I don't consider it to have an overblown price. In my world, $1699 isn't all that much for a SOTA amplifier. It just so happens that my bedside headphone setup has limited space and the Rag's form factor just won't work.


 
 I agree with this that's why I carefully choose what I purchase. Having said that, I got the Rag at a very good price...


----------



## stuartmc

I have been reading the HE-400i impressions thread and I definitely don't want to post my thoughts there for fear of upsetting folks. I get how people wish to think that what they have is just, or nearly, as good as the more expensive model. Lots of folks saying the 400i is more fun and musical to them then what they heard in their usually brief audition of the 560. I'm going to state unequivocally that to my seasoned ears, this just isn't the case. The kind of improvements I hear with the 560 is what we old time audiophiles would crawl across a room full of broken glass to achieve. Once you reach a certain level the gains/improvements are very hard to come by. The gains with the 560 are ridiculously easy to hear - way better imaging and separation, wider and deeper stage, finer resolution across the board and a more neutral, natural frequency response. 

To bring this back to the good ship Gustard, let's just say that the 560's enable me to much more clearly appreciate the superiority of the X12 over the Aune S16 when coupled with the H10. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, lol.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> I have been reading the HE-400i impressions thread and I definitely don't want to post my thoughts there for fear of upsetting folks. I get how people wish to think that what they have is just, or nearly, as good as the more expensive model. Lots of folks saying the 400i is more fun and musical to them then what they heard in their usually brief audition of the 560. I'm going to state unequivocally that to my seasoned ears, this just isn't the case. The kind of improvements I hear with the 560 is what we old time audiophiles would crawl across a room full of broken glass to achieve. Once you reach a certain level the gains/improvements are very hard to come by. The gains with the 560 are ridiculously easy to hear - way better imaging and separation, wider and deeper stage, finer resolution across the board and a more neutral, natural frequency response.
> 
> To bring this back to the good ship Gustard, let's just say that the 560's enable me to much more clearly appreciate the superiority of the X12 over the Aune S16 when coupled with the H10. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, lol.


 
 Hello Honoured High Guinea Pig and Captain of the good ship Gustard, I have been reading your musings with a watchful eye and must admit to deriveing a great amount of satisfaction from your fine, and entertaining, penmanship. I have been on another thread raising all sorts or ire and mayhem with my opinions on power switch placement on Schiit Audio products. It is such fun to watch the Pavlovian responses to my jibes!
 That having been said, I must tell you that you will be responsible for a sizeable hole in my coin purse as your enthusiastic reports about the HE-560's will be a large contributing factor to my purchase of same. Damn you, my good man, with your golden ears/ tongue/typing fingers preying on the weak and helpless and those of simple mind!
 All jokes aside, always a pleasure to read your posts and embrace the wisdom emparted by same. Greetings and best wishes from "The Bush


----------



## zilch0md

swannie007 said:


> Hello Honoured High Guinea Pig and Captain of the good ship Gustard


 
  
 This was my first good laugh of the day...   Cracks me up how this evolved!  
  
 Thank you, Swami.


----------



## lukeap69

zilch0md said:


> This was my first good laugh of the day...   Cracks me up how this evolved!
> 
> Thank you, Swami.


 
 Well, it should be properly be addressed as SS Gustard.


----------



## stuartmc

An appellation that brings me great pride and honor -


----------



## stuartmc

Ahh, swabbie Swannie. It's nice to know I have a kindred spirit in the bush. I think I'm going to follow your lead and do the complete Gustard stack. Yes sir, ordering up the U12 and a new tablet to stream music via Tidal. I'm craving some new music discoveries and sound quality is critical. Of course when I discover something outstanding, I will purchase the highest resolution medium I can find. I'm not a fan of anything less than CD quality for even preliminary listening, so I'm thinking tidal is the way to go.

Any Swabbies out there have experience with tidal they can share? Mike?...yoohoo, I saw you posting on a tidal thread. How satisfying is your experience?


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> Ahh, swabbie Swannie. It's nice to know I have a kindred spirit in the bush. I think I'm going to follow your lead and do the complete Gustard stack. Yes sir, ordering up the U12 and a new tablet to stream music via Tidal. I'm craving some new music discoveries and sound quality is critical. Of course when I discover something outstanding, I will purchase the highest resolution medium I can find. I'm not a fan of anything less than CD quality for even preliminary listening, so I'm thinking tidal is the way to go.
> 
> Any Swabbies out there have experience with tidal they can share? Mike?...yoohoo, I saw you posting on a tidal thread. How satisfying is your experience?


 
 I can vouch for Tidal. Almost all of my music comes from it, save for the occasional Spotify offline streaming. The library is immense, the interface is intuitive, and the quality is excellent.


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> [snip]





> Any Swabbies out there have experience with tidal they can share? Mike?...yoohoo, I saw you posting on a tidal thread. How satisfying is your experience?


 
  
 Hey Stuart,
  
 Tidal is a love/hate thing, unfortunately - a bittersweet experience that, fortunately, is mostly sweet - very sweet.  The bitterness comes, of course, from inexplicable, intermittent drop-outs, where Tidal's servers just seem to be overloaded. And there are plenty of people who can testify as I do that even when Tidal is choking, they are able to stream content from sources like Netflix that require much more bandwidth than a 44/16 FLAC file.  I've got 25 Mpbs download capability using Verizon FiOS (with fiber optic coming onto my property) and there have been two occasions now, when Tidal was acting up, that I started four different devices downloading 1080P videos simultaneously - all without stuttering.  So, the problem is most definitely at Tidal's servers - and there is a pattern of failure during prime time, so to speak. I suffer far fewer drop-outs when listening at 6:00 AM CT, than when listening at 6:00 PM CT.
  
 All that said, I remember when I first started using my TiVo DVR, friends told me that it would change the way I watch TV. It's the same with Tidal.  There's a YouTube video out there where Tyll Hertsens proclaims that he is _done _with buying and ripping CDs because Tidal is so much more convenient.  I love exploring their playlists, and when I hear something I like, I click on the Artist's name and go to Tidal's compilation of "Most Popular Tracks" for that artist - it's such a great way to find new music.  And Tidal provides a list of "Similar Artists" that allows you to dig deeper, not just within a particular genre, but within a that particular artist's sub-genre, if you know what I mean.  
  
 As you go, you can create your own playlists, but I just mark my Favorites, and then later, if I'm not in the mood for hunting down new artists, if all I want to do is listen to stuff I like (whether it's long time favorites I've located in Tidal, or new stuff), I just pull up my Favorites list, select the Shuffle option, and go for a very enjoyable ride - all without any of the CD-ripping rituals or even the similar file-management, distribution, and back-up hassles that also accompany purchased downloads of hi-rez files - not to mention the expense of hi-rez downloads. Case in point - I dropped $22.95 on the HDTracks 96/24 download of Pink Floyd's new album _"Louder Than Words,"_ when a Tidal subscription is only $19.99 a month. I might be a long time before I pay for any more CDs or Hi-Res music.  
  
 Independent of Tidal's occasional drop-outs and the fact that their player is never gapless - there's always at least a 4 or 5-second delay between songs - the 44/16 sound quality is really superb.
  
 I'm using a $99 Pure i-20 (which is only available with the old-style 30-pin iDevice connector) and an iPad 3 (with 30-pin connector and Retina display), rubber banded to a re-purposed marble slab from a cheese slicer to add ballast for the heavy iPad, to go Coaxial Out to my Metrum Octave MkII:
  

  




  
 I'm currently burning in a Metrum Acoustics Aurix (69 hours and counting) which, time will tell, might replace the NuForce HA-200 for use with the HD800.
  
 The Aurix is a zero-feedback headphone amp that uses neither tubes nor transistors for gain - it uses a step-up transformer, similar to the Nelson Pass M2 speaker amp. I would have already tried the Gustard H10 a long time ago, but for having waited six weeks to get my hands on the Aurix three days ago, but I've become more interested in the H10 for use with my planar magnetics than with the HD800...
  
 I have to say go ahead and order Tidal.  I think they're slowly getting their act together as the revenue pours in...
  




  
 Mike


----------



## stuartmc

Awesome post Mike. I knew I could count on you for the low down. Your listening procedure and preferences sound a lot like what I would be doing with tidal, so that was nearly everything I needed to know.

Also good to have a hearty second from Schopenhauer.


----------



## Lohb

This amp about $280 (+ shipping) direct from China...looking good !


----------



## teofilrocks

I'm wondering how the Asgard 2 compares to the H10.


----------



## natra084

hi I just ordered my x12 but is it any difference between balanced an unbalanced


----------



## stuartmc

I prefer the balanced connection from X12 to H10. It seems to have a lower noise floor.


----------



## stuartmc

I just ordered the U12 from Wang Shuzeng, aka pollychen0306 on ebay. I also picked up the new Xiaomi Mipad to use for streaming Tidal.  Ha!...it just occurred to me that I have an entirely Chinese System- Xiaomi, Hidizs, Gustard and Hifiman. Obviously I have much love for my Asian musical brothers.  Only my power conditioners, power cords and cables are American made and my CD transport is British.  
  
 The X12 has added an I2S input that corresponds to the I2S output on the U12, so it looks like I will be playing with cables with hdmi type connectors.  From what I've read, this is the preferred connection between the U12 and X12.  Geesh, another variable for me to fuss with! I hope I can find something reasonably priced that sounds good.


----------



## Joong

we are all waiting...


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> I just ordered the U12 from Wang Shuzeng, aka pollychen0306 on ebay. I also picked up the new Xiaomi Mipad to use for streaming Tidal.  Ha!...it just occurred to me that I have an entirely Chinese System- Xiaomi, Hidizs, Gustard and Hifiman. Obviously I have much love for my Asian musical brothers.  Only my power conditioners, power cords and cables are American made and my CD transport is British.
> 
> The X12 has added an I2S input that corresponds to the I2S output on the U12, so it looks like I will be playing with cables with hdmi type connectors.  From what I've read, this is the preferred connection between the U12 and X12.  Geesh, another variable for me to fuss with! I hope I can find something reasonably priced that sounds good.



I also bought the u12 I don't know what it does but maybe I will find out when it gets here


----------



## Joong

U12 can reduce jittering which is actually a noise on the output of USB signal stream.
 It can also converts the signal from USB to optical and coaxial output in higher quality by removing some jittering of input stream through USB.
 The highest output rate however can be through I2C via HDMI output port.
 When you usually listen to your music through computer, you did a good choice.


----------



## natra084

joong said:


> U12 can reduce jittering which is actually a noise on the output of USB signal stream.
> It can also converts the signal from USB to optical and coaxial output in higher quality by removing some jittering of input stream through USB.
> The highest output rate however can be through I2C via HDMI output port.
> When you usually listen to your music through computer, you did a good choice.



thanks man for the great explanation that is exactly what I have been searching for.


----------



## Schopenhauer

Sitting here with a bottle of Victory Golden Monkey and the LCD-2.2 plugged into the H10 with the +6 pregain enabled. I can't believe I ever put these up for sale. We audiophiles are an unfaithful lot. Or perhaps I should speak for myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 In any event, it's too soon to call it but I'm worried the HE-6 + H10 is a bust. And after 56 years of waiting! The pairing comes across as spiky with the + pregains enabled. There are moments when the clouds part and the angels descend. But there are also moments when the angels shiv me in the ear with an icepick. And I thought I was a fickle lover. 
  
 This isn't the final word.


----------



## natra084

Hi what do you guys know about this seller on eBay pollychen0306 I ordered from him X12 and U12 but now he's not answering my emails and he hasn't sent the items I feel like I'm getting screwed.


----------



## joeq70

Hey all, the comparison of the Gustard H10 to the V200 has piqued my interest. Has anyone tried this amp with any Grado headphones? If so, how was the pairing?


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> Hi what do you guys know about this seller on eBay pollychen0306 I ordered from him X12 and U12 but now he's not answering my emails and he hasn't sent the items I feel like I'm getting screwed.




If you bothered to read the many posts we have on the subject, you would know that pollychen0306 has been our preferred Gustard supplier. To date, I don't think any of us have had a problem with getting the purchased gear and most have been surprised by how quickly it is received. The key is using and paying for a service like DHL instead of the cheaper e-packets with EMS. You get faster service and way better package tracking. He's a busy guy and generally answers eBay emails within a day when it has to do with the initial purchase, tracking number, etc.. If you are asking a bunch of questions after you already have purchase confirmation and a tracking number, I would not be surprised if the response is delayed.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> If you bothered to read the many posts we have on the subject, you would know that pollychen0306 has been our preferred Gustard supplier. To date, I don't think any of us have had a problem with getting the purchased gear and most have been surprised by how quickly it is received. The key is using and paying for a service like DHL instead of the cheaper e-packets with EMS. You get faster service and way better package tracking. He's a busy guy and generally answers eBay emails within a day when it has to do with the initial purchase, tracking number, etc.. If you are asking a bunch of questions after you already have purchase confirmation and a tracking number, I would not be surprised if the response is delayed.



The thing is that I'm not so confident when somebody stops answering my emails. when I bought the H10 even after I paid him he still kept on sending emails to me but this time as soon as I send him the money nothing at all.The make me nervous but maybe it is just me I get easily nervous everytime I buy something from countries that are not in the EU.
I know that you guys have had good experience with this seller but I'm sorry I just get easily nervous


----------



## joeq70

natra084 said:


> The thing is that I'm not so confident when somebody stops answering my emails. when I bought the H10 even after I paid him he still kept on sending emails to me but this time as soon as I send him the money nothing at all.The make me nervous but maybe it is just me I get easily nervous everytime I buy something from countries that are not in the EU.
> I know that you guys have had good experience with this seller but I'm sorry I just get easily nervous


 
 Perhaps you already know this, but I'd like to point out to you that ebay is _extremely_ buyer-friendly. If for some reason you were to not get the amp in the time promised, you would be able to obtain a refund, easily. I know that doesn't give you back your lost time or extended longing for new gear, but at least that's something.


----------



## natra084

joeq70 said:


> Maybe you know this already, u
> Perhaps you already know this, but I'd like to point out to you that ebay is _extremely_ buyer-friendly. If for some reason you were to not get the amp in the time promised, you would be able to obtain a refund, easily. I know that doesn't give you back your lost time or extended longing for new gear, but at least that's something.



Thanks man that was reassuring that eBay takes care of you.


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> Thanks man that was reassuring that eBay takes care of you.


 
 If you paid using paypal, you have another source of protection, but I don't think you need to worry. You already got the H10 from pollychen0306, so you should know that he is quite legit.  His name is Wang Shuzeng and he has an actual audio business called Fanmusic in Shenzhen. My dealings with him have been outstanding.  He probably communicated with you more on your first purchase because everyone is a little nervous when buying overseas from an unknown source.  Once you have successfully completed a transaction, he probably figures he doesn't need to hold your hand as much anymore.  That has been the case with me.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> If you paid using paypal, you have another source of protection, but I don't think you need to worry. You already got the H10 from pollychen0306, so you should know that he is quite legit.  His name is Wang Shuzeng and he has an actual audio business called Fanmusic in Shenzhen. My dealings with him have been outstanding.  He probably communicated with you more on your first purchase because everyone is a little nervous when buying overseas from an unknown source.  Once you have successfully completed a transaction, he probably figures he doesn't need to hold your hand as much anymore.  That has been the case with me.


 
 Ok thanks man.


----------



## stuartmc

On a brighter note......Natra, you Gustard swabbie, you... You have gone and gotten yourself the entire Gustard stack!  You will have joined the venerable ranks of moi, Captain Guinea Pig of the SS Gustard, and First Mate Swannie, aka, the  Bosun from the Bush. Talk about a motley crew! LOL


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> Sitting here with a bottle of Victory Golden Monkey and the LCD-2.2 plugged into the H10 with the +6 pregain enabled. I can't believe I ever put these up for sale. We audiophiles are an unfaithful lot. Or perhaps I should speak for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 From all I have read about the HE-6, it is one very fickle amplifier lover.  Seriously though, if the H10 can't drive them that well you must need a friggin' arc welder to do it.  Most of the raves I hear are coming from guys that have adapted high-powered conventional speaker amplifiers for headphone use.  That seems a little extreme to me.  Hifiman has obviously learned how to get their sound with a much more friendly load.  As Nigel Powers would say, the 560's are easy peasy lemon squeezy.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> On a brighter note......Natra, you Gustard swabbie, you... You have gone and gotten yourself the entire Gustard stack!  You will have joined the venerable ranks of moi, Captain Guinea Pig of the SS Gustard, and First Mate Swannie, aka, the  Bosun from the Bush. Talk about a motley crew! LOL



yeah that's true


----------



## Joong

schopenhauer said:


> Sitting here with a bottle of Victory Golden Monkey and the LCD-2.2 plugged into the H10 with the +6 pregain enabled. I can't believe I ever put these up for sale. We audiophiles are an unfaithful lot. Or perhaps I should speak for myself.
> 
> In any event, it's too soon to call it but I'm worried the HE-6 + H10 is a bust. And after 56 years of waiting! The pairing comes across as spiky with the + pregains enabled. There are moments when the clouds part and the angels descend. But there are also moments when the angels shiv me in the ear with an icepick. And I thought I was a fickle lover.
> 
> This isn't the final word.



I need to correct my preveious statement that the sound quality of H10 with He6 was not better than Topping Tp60. Because I did wrong connection with He-6, I did wrote wrong statement.
After correction of Conductor as Dac -> H10 -> he6, the SQ was wonderful.
Recently I found myself listening to the combination always.

H10 + he6 with a good dac will be wonderful combination, which is noticable different from topping tp60 +h10 in good way.


----------



## No_One411

schopenhauer said:


> Sitting here with a bottle of Victory Golden Monkey and the LCD-2.2 plugged into the H10 with the +6 pregain enabled. I can't believe I ever put these up for sale. We audiophiles are an unfaithful lot. Or perhaps I should speak for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hmmm... 
  
 I didn't have fantastic results from the HE6 + H10 combo during my limited audition at the meet. With the +12 setting, the highs were much peakier than I would have liked. However, the amplifier definitely has the power to adequately drive it to the levels it needs to sound decent. Not a fantastic pairing, but not terrible either. Sorry I can't comment more. This was during mini-meet conditions.
  
 The HE-6 did sound really good out of my First Watt F5 power amp though, straight from the taps.


----------



## Anda

Typical sign of underpowering. Upper mids and highs gets sort of a 'screamy' effect. My experiences are the same on both Project Polaris, Lake People G100 and some lower wattage vintage amplifiers.


----------



## stuartmc

This has to be some kind of record. My Gustard U12 left Hong Kong via DHL at 2:00 AM on Tuesday morning and it was delivered at 2:30pm  today.  That's just over 36 hours!  It's just the cutest little thing and it feels right at home above its big brother the X12 -
  

  
 I have been playing around some more with my "closet" accessories and decided to lose the Shakti stones for an additional set of cones supporting the carbon shelf. I also broke out the DH squares by Golden Sound and placed them beneath the cone tips on the base of both the X12 and H10.  The DH squares have a high sear factor which is pretty effective for dissipating vibrations.They also have small holes in the center that help to center the cone tips and stabilize the setup.  I was completely surprised by how much better the system sounds with these changes. The mass loading of the Shakti stones was apparently too much and the addition of the DH squares has made one of those shake your head in disbelief improvements.  Carbon fiber is apparently a pretty good rfi/emi shield on its own, so the additional absorption of the Shakti stones didn't make much difference.  Also in the rear, wear you can't see them in these pictures, I'm running Yamamura Systems power sleeves over the junctions of the power cords and the IEC inlets  and the Highwire Audio Power Wraps tunable twisted coils around the center region of the power cords. Both of these devices reputedly reduce rfi/emi transmission through the power cords.   Next up I will be playing with isolation of the Rega transport and even the little U12.   
  
 I must seem awfully anal about this stuff, but hey, this is play time and since I have so many of these tweaky accessories lying about, I might as well give them a shot.


----------



## Zakin

Just a note on DHL, I've ordered probably three things from China/South Korea and they all came from DHL, they all came within two days. The kicker is it was free shipping on all of it, and the items were already a bargain price wise. DHL absolutely stomps any other service, even within US.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> This has to be some kind of record. My Gustard U12 left Hong Kong via DHL at 2:00 AM on Tuesday morning and it was delivered at 2:30pm  today.  That's just over 36 hours!  It's just the cutest little thing and it feels right at home above its big brother the X12 -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi stuart first impressions on the u12.


----------



## Lohb

Playing catch-up in the entire thread.....I see some members started op-amp rolling in MUSE 02's mentioned a while back in the thread....anyone else tried that or is it simply not needed with the stock config ?


----------



## Schopenhauer

UPDATE: I'm exchanging my HE-6 for an HE-560. The seeming universal acclaim the HE-560 + H10 pairing has on this thread has me excited, obviously. After I get it in and do the mandatory listening/getting acquainted sessions, I'll leave some feedback on here a la my reflections on the HE-500 and Alpha Dogs. I'll also try finally to get some pinups posted on here.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> This has to be some kind of record. My Gustard U12 left Hong Kong via DHL at 2:00 AM on Tuesday morning and it was delivered at 2:30pm  today.  That's just over 36 hours!  It's just the cutest little thing and it feels right at home above its big brother the X12 -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have to say, y'all are seriously making me consider a Gustard stack. How many outputs on the X12?
  
 Your rig is über seXXXy, Stu.


----------



## zilch0md

I love the energy and enthusiasm on this thread, with everyone celebrating their recent Gustard acquisitions, so with respect and a good measure of envy, please allow me to jest...


----------



## Schopenhauer

zilch0md said:


> I love the energy and enthusiasm on this thread, with everyone celebrating their recent Gustard acquisitions, so with respect and a good measure of envy, please allow me to jest...


 
 I wonder if this is how brands happen. If so, my address is Gustard, Groundfloor.


----------



## swannie007

Received my Gustard U12 recently and have installed it in my Gustard stack today and I must say that I am enjoying it quite a bit. I am using a usb output from my Mac into the usb input on the U12 and the AEB output from the U12 to the X10 and the coaxial output from the U12 to my Rotel dac and the optical output from the U12 into my Breeze Audio dac, so I now have three different dac/amp stacks fed by signals from the U12 and I am impressed with the sound on all. It might be my imagination but all the stacks seem to be clearer than before the U12 install, like a veil has been removed from the sound. Anyway, be it real or perceived, I am enjoying the results and will not ponder the reasons but rather just enjoy it. Greetings to all on the good ship Gustard from swabbie swannie the "Bosun from the Bush".


----------



## lukeap69

That's what's most important Swabbie Swannie, you are enjoying the results. This is the most common satisfaction of the SS Gustard swabbies!


----------



## natra084

signal to noise ratio shouldn't be as high as possible or low possible.I'm looking at 2 amps on has 90dB the other has 100dB which one is better.


----------



## Schopenhauer

Stu or Swannie, can either of you tell me what digital filters the X12 provides? And if it isn't too much, mind sharing your thoughts on the filters?


----------



## FlySweep

I'm with Mike.. it's great to see so many owners, new and old, happy with their Gustard gear.. thanks to everyone for keeping this thread moving with impressions and various points of reference.
  
@stuartmc .. congrats on the HE-560, bud.. see, I knew you'd like it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 more than the HE-400i.. especially with the H10!  I appreciate all your posts on the X12, too.. very insightful.. I feel I've got a very good idea of what it presents.  It's been tough for me to find a Sabre DAC implementation I've liked enough to want to keep around, long term.. the X12 seems to be one of those precious few SABRE-based DACs that don't suffer from the glare that seems inherent with the 90xx chipset (of course, there are digital filters to help shape the sound with some Sabre DACs, as well).  It would be nice if we could index all impressions/criticisms and important questions/answers in the first post so as to make it easier for newcomers to quickly get an idea of the various Gustard devices.. and to keep noise to a minimum.. just a suggestion I'd throw out in case the thread start was still following this thread.  We're at 40 pages, which wouldn't be an extremely difficult amount of posts to comb through and index.


----------



## swannie007

schopenhauer said:


> Stu or Swannie, can either of you tell me what digital filters the X12 provides? And if it isn't too much, mind sharing your thoughts on the filters?


 

 Sorry I can't help you mate, I have the X10 not the X12 so I guess it's over to Stu to answer this one. Cheers.


----------



## swannie007

lukeap69 said:


> That's what's most important Swabbie Swannie, you are enjoying the results. This is the most common satisfaction of the SS Gustard swabbies!


 

 Amen to that me hearty and ho ho ho and a bottle of rum! Cheers.


----------



## natra084

natra084 said:


> signal to noise ratio shouldn't be as high as possible or low possible.I'm looking at 2 amps on has 90dB the other has 100dB which one is better.


 
 Does anybody know the answer to this question?


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> Does anybody know the answer to this question?



Signal to noise should be as high as possible, so the 100db amp is performing better in this parameter.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> Signal to noise should be as high as possible, so the 100db amp is performing better in this parameter.



Thanks stuart


----------



## swannie007

Listening to the U12 fed from my iMac playing iTunes lossless files into the H10/X10 stack with my T90 headphones and I must say that the clarity in the music is stunning! Can't tear myself away from my desk to do anything else. Oh well, it is very over-cast outside and threatening to rain so a motorbike ride is off the schedule for today so I may as well enjoy my ear toys! Tough life! Cheers to all the swabbies from "Down Under".


----------



## Arnotts

I've been on holiday for a while and my gustard h10 is sitting at home, along with a pair of lcd-2's, both in their packaging. 

I'm currently contemplating a dac upgrade as well - either the schiit bifrost uber with gen2 USB or the gustard x12. A very hard decision, especially when I'll have a geek pulse in a couple of months, which also has the sabre chip like the x12. 

It's a shame that gustard products are relatively unknown - hardly anyone has heard them!

Edit: reading this post http://www.audioaficionado.org/wyred-4-sound/8463-wyred-4-sound-dac-2-review-11.html#post570742
Has made me lean towards the x12, since it's supposedly a clone (with some potential improvements, even) of the w4s dac 2, and the x12 is actually cheaper than a fully upgraded bifrost for me.


----------



## lukeap69

Swabbie Stuart speaks highly of the X12 and I value his opinion. If I didn't have an Audio-gd NFB-1 DAC, the X12 will be surely high on my list. It appears swabbies on this thread are very happy with the Gustard stack (H10+X12+U12).


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> I have to say, y'all are seriously making me consider a Gustard stack. How many outputs on the X12?
> 
> Your rig is über seXXXy, Stu.


 
  
 It's my bedside rig, so it can be a little distracting. My girlfriend commented last night that I'm more into my "headphone stuff" than I am into her. Ha ha...in my Fat person voice (Austin Powers), I said, "oh yeah...It's dead sexy!
  
 The X12 has both single-ended and balanced outputs.  The real treat is all the inputs. We have USB, Optical, AES/EBU, Coax and .....drum roll.....I2S.  The older X10 didnt' have I2S and I was a little puzzled by that because their earlier U10 had I2S output just like the new U12 does and owners of the U10 /X10 stack couldn't take advantage of the superior interface. I'm running a cheapo hdmi cable between the U12/X12 and it sounds pretty darn good. I have a couple of higher quality (audiophile snake oil approved) ones on the way, so I'll see just how good this interface is.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> Stu or Swannie, can either of you tell me what digital filters the X12 provides? And if it isn't too much, mind sharing your thoughts on the filters?


 
 I think you are referring to the two switchable filters that you can access from the front panel buttons.  The two filters are designated "Sharp" and "Slow." These are built into the ES9018 chip and everyone seems to think that the ESS boys did a good job with them.

 Stereophile tested these and produced these graphs. The one on the left is the "Slow" filter and you can see that high frequency response is slightly rolled off as compared to the "Sharp" filter on the right.  The Sharp, or "brick wall" filter does have more "pre-ringing" than does the Slow and some people think this pre-ringing sounds somewhat unnatural.  The slow filter has much less pre-ringing at the price of letting a more aliased signal image through and theoretically increasing harmonic distortion.  In my experience, the difference between these filters on the X12 is pretty subtle and very music dependent to really identify the differences. Generally speaking, I find the Sharp filter to set the stage a little further back, provides a slightly more dynamic and tighter bass and a more airy, extended treble.  The Slow filter warms things up a bit, giving what some would call a "darker" sound. It loses some of the top end air and detail in favor of a slightly more relaxed, forgiving sound.  
  
 By the way, for those of you asking about the smoothness of the X12 and how well it eschews the apparently ubiquitous Sabre glare, I can tell you that I do most of my listening with the Sharp filter with no problems whatsoever with glare or harshness.  I'm a soundstage/imaging freak, so I want the lowest possible noise floor to let the ambient cues rise above the surface (think draining lake analogy again) and the best possible high frequency extension and resolution.   I'm getting this with the X12 on Sharp and I'm very satisfied.  So much so, that I already sent the Aune S16 packing. Yep, it's on its way to France to another head-fier.  I also have the Rega Apollo R with the Wolfson 8742.  So many have commented about Wolfson dacs sounding more relaxed and musical than sabre dacs, that I of course had to do a lot of A-B listening between the two. I concluded that the X12 outperforms the Apollo R's dac in almost every parameter.  In fact, when I run the X12 with the Slow filter, they are surprisingly close in overall sound signature with the X12 having a little more dynamic punch and still revealing a little more low level information.  
  
 FlySweep, I couldn't be happier with the HE-560's (thanks for the encouragement) and I would thoroughly enjoy your take on the X12.  If you are interested in an affordable Sabre dac that sounds very sweet, like a Wolfson with  a little more air and detail, I think this is the one.


----------



## stuartmc

*U12 Update!*
  
*Newsflash.....  *I got the Xiaomi Mipad the other day - a wonderful little tablet with ac wifi and the new Nvidia Tegra K1 chip - loaded the Tidal android software, and plugged it into the U12 with a usb otg cable. Bam!..just like that, I have CD quality music playing through my system.  This is just incredible to me and I can't thank you guys enough, Mike in particular, for giving this service the thumbs up.   With only ten hours of break in, the sound of the U12 is extremely satisfying. I've already compared songs with the streamed sound to the same on CD playing on my Apollo R, and I'm really quite shocked at how closely the usb sound compares.
  
 I am having more fun mining for new music gold and I already have a huge nugget to share.  I have always been a fan of the Modeski, Martin & Wood sound with their Hammond B3 groove leading the way. Well, its been a while since I've checked out their stuff and it just so happens that they have been joined by an outstanding Jazz guitar player and now call themselves Modeski, Scofield, Martin & Wood and their latest album is called "Juice."  This album is the real deal. They get grooving in the tightest of pockets with piano or B3, alternately, sharing the lyrical parts with the guitar. The drummer and Bassist are playfully creative while keeping the groove rock solid.  Seriously swabbies, this may be the official album of the SS Gustard!


----------



## Schopenhauer

I've been listening to this for the past day and a half:
.
 I must say, the H10 goes toe to toe with the BD. How insane is that? I may attempt a write-up of the two.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> I've been listening to this for the past day and a half:
> 
> .
> I must say, the H10 goes toe to toe with the BD. How insane is that? I may attempt a write-up of the two.




Ewww.....sexy!


----------



## FlySweep

stuartmc said:


> I am having more fun mining for new music gold and I already have a huge nugget to share.  I have always been a fan of the Modeski, Martin & Wood sound with their Hammond B3 groove leading the way. Well, its been a while since I've checked out their stuff and it just so happens that they have been joined by an outstanding Jazz guitar player and now call themselves Modeski, Scofield, Martin & Wood and their latest album is called "Juice."  This album is the real deal. They get grooving in the tightest of pockets with piano or B3, alternately, sharing the lyrical parts with the guitar. The drummer and Bassist are playfully creative while keeping the groove rock solid.  Seriously swabbies, this may be the official album of the SS Gustard!


 
  
 You're awesome man!  MMW (and Scofield is wicked, too).. one of my favorite groups.. regardless of genre.. I've been a loooong time fan and followed their work since Shackman.. they put on an absolutely _mesmerizing_ live show, too.
   





schopenhauer said:


> I've been listening to this for the past day and a half:
> .
> I must say, the H10 goes toe to toe with the BD. How insane is that? I may attempt a write-up of the two.


 
  
 The Black Diamond!  I'm damn picky about solid state amplification these days.. and I contemplated getting one when Doug had it for pre-release.. Trusted sources mentioned that it's a terrific amp.. very high praise if the H10 can go toe to toe with it.. very cool!


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Ewww.....sexy!


 

 +1!


----------



## swannie007

Just installed balanced cables between the X10 and H10 and now I know what all the fuss is about. More power(not that the H10 needed it!) and better separation between instruments. Have a balanced cable for the 400i's in the mail. Can't wait. Damn, this Gustard stuff is some damn fine gear. Just listening to "Stand by me" on spanish guitar and I am in heaven!


----------



## Lohb

swannie007 said:


> Just installed balanced cables between the X10 and H10 and now I know what all the fuss is about. More power(not that the H10 needed it!) and better separation between instruments. Have a balanced cable for the 400i's in the mail. Can't wait. Damn, this Gustard stuff is some damn fine gear. Just listening to "Stand by me" on spanish guitar and I am in heaven!


 

 Excellent. On the balanced planar cans side, it always gives them a turbo kick by getting them on taps/XLR..Silly question is the H10 not SE or is there a balanced output at the back ?


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> I'm a soundstage/imaging freak, so I want the lowest possible noise floor to let the ambient cues rise above the surface (think draining lake analogy again) and the best possible high frequency extension and resolution.   I'm getting this with the X12 on Sharp and I'm very satisfied.


 
  
 Oh Stuart, you're killing me! You and I are birds of a feather in the quest for what comes with draining the lake!
  
 I have to quote a portion of a PM I sent to an Australian friend four days ago:
  


> Now, with the Aurix, the micro-details, echos, and trailing decays that reside in the low-energy signals heard just above the noise floor of good recordings are coming through in droves - and I'm absolutely convinced, as are Nelson Pass, Robert Harley, and others, that this is due to the _*zero-feedback*_* *design. When a DAC and amp are pitch black and the headphone is highly resolving (the LCD-2 and PM-1 need not apply), these low-energy details can turn a reproduction into reality - greatly improving your perception of the timbre of instruments and voices (making them sound more natural), the topology of the sound stage (defining the space in which the recording was made), and the focus of imaging (making a trumpet's bell six inches in diameter instead of three feet in diameter).
> 
> That's part of the magic of the HD800 - its resolution of the low-energy information - *but this precious low-energy information has to be there, just above the noise floor, if the HD800 is to have any chance of rendering it -* *not obliterated by use of amps that create distortion artifacts down near the noise floor, ironically, due to their use of negative feedback* to deal with the distortion at higher energy levels, which, again ironically, are created by using multiple gain stages and/or push-pull (differential) topologies, whether Class A or not.  But even a zero-feedback amp has to support the HD800's resolution without softening it if we're to have any chance of hearing those micro-details.


 
  
  
 Weeks ago, not long after this thread started, I reported that I was unable to get an answer to the question, "Does the Gustard H10 use any local or global negative feedback?" - but the way you're talking, Stuart, it really doesn't matter.  The X10 is delivering that which we both like.
  
 There are those who argue vehemently against the use of negative feedback, precisely because it does create distortion artifacts just above the noise floor, destroying any chance of enjoying that which you and I crave.  And there are those who are just as adamant in vigorously defending the need for negative feedback, to eliminate distortion at higher energy levels, indeed, to reduce the distortion that can be measured.
  
 I am actually a traitor to both sides of the argument, in that *I've come to believe there are two solutions...*
  
*1) No use of negative feedback at all* - as with single-stage Class A amps that do not generate a lot of distortion in the first place (amps that, by design, don't have a great need for negative feedback)
  
*2) Use of a lot of negative feedback* - so much that it pushes its own artifacts 90 dB or more below the peak signals, so that you can have the best of both worlds.
  
 Given your X10 testimony, above, and in previous posts, I strongly suspect that's what Gustard has done - using a design with a _ton_ of negative feedback to produce an amp that measures well in the higher energy levels -AND- that can deliver those lake-bottom, low-energy details without a hint of feedback artifact.  
  
 I'm just conjecturing, but normally, when an amp is truly a zero-feedback or low-feedback design, the manufacturer will spotlight this as a feature of the amp - and it will tend to have somewhat poor measurable distortion figures - neither of which is true for the Gustard X10, so...  They must be in this new camp where the more typical use of only 30 or 40 dB of negative feedback is avoided - precisely because it creates audible artifacts in the low energy signals - in favor of something like 90 or 100 dB of negative feedback. I would love to get a confirmation of my suspicion. 
  
 I just finished completing my Metrum stack with the arrival of the Aurix, so my wallet needs a long breather - or I'd have had the X10 a while ago, and now, with your statement above (quoted), I'm convinced I have to try the X12, too - almost _because_ I hate the infamous ESS Sabre glare and want to hear this "sweet" ESS9018 implementation, as you call it.
  
 Tick, tock, tick, tock...
  


Spoiler: The stack that has preceded my forthcoming Gustard stack






  
  
 Mike


----------



## Zakin

That's some mighty competition Zilch! If you do pick up the Gustard stack I'll be very interested on how you feel about it's Sabre implementation.


----------



## zilch0md

zakin said:


> That's some mighty competition Zilch! If you do pick up the Gustard stack I'll be very interested on how you feel about it's Sabre implementation.


 
  
 Roger that!  I'm completely open-minded to the possibility that the much less expensive stack could win - especially with the LCD-2 and PM-1, but I'm a little more dubious with the HD800.  
  
 In other words, if I have an expectation bias, it's that the Gustard stack will be replacing my OPPO HA-1, as seen in this graphic...
  





  
 But who knows?  I might end up with nothing but the X10 and X12.  I've got a purchase history that includes replacing more expensive gear with less expensive gear -and- buying expensive gear only to sell it because it couldn't defeat a less expensive component I already had.
  
 For example, I've posted on the HA-1 thread that I consider the Chinese-made TeraDak Teralink X2 USB-to-SPDIF converter to be an affordable _*upgrade for the HA-1 - *_to replace the not so impressive USB receiver built into the HA-1, especially when the X2 is powered with their excellent TeraDak U9  5V/9V PSU or a 5V battery pack.
  
 In fact, having used the Resonessence Concero, for several months - not as a DAC (due to the Beresford Bushmaster MkII), but only as a USB-to-SPDIF converter, I sold the Concero after extensive A/B testing with the TeraDak Teralink X2. 

  


Spoiler: TeraDak's excllent products...




  
  

  

  
 The TeraDak 9U PSU includes this killer USB Y-cable for pulling only data from the laptop:
  



  
  
 But I avoid using laptops as sources now, except for testing gear - they are too tempting a distraction when I'm trying to enjoy listening to music.
  
 Mike


----------



## lukeap69

And Mike will be the next honorary guinea pig.


----------



## zilch0md

LOL

Maybe not the very next...


----------



## swannie007

lohb said:


> Excellent. On the balanced planar cans side, it always gives them a turbo kick by getting them on taps/XLR..Silly question is the H10 not SE or is there a balanced output at the back ?


 

 Lohb, The H10 is not a true "balanced out" amp but has the ability to have balanced inputs and so I did this from the X10 which has balanced outputs. The headphone output, per se, is not a true balanced output but I suspect some sort of "pseudo" balanced output. I will install the balanced headphone cable to SE plug when it arrives and report if there is any improvement(to my ears!).  I know that this is not "true" balanced mode, but I am enjoying it immensely and, to my ears, the sound is clearer with better separation between instruments. As I have said before, THIS IS TO MY EARS, YMMV. Anyway, placebo or not, I am enjoying it immensely and consider it money well spent. My other stacks are getting very little play time as I am so taken with the Gustard stack and I suspect that I only use them due to feelings of guilt, having spent the money to purchase them. The Gustard stack gets about 80% of the play time, a clear indication of how happy I am with it. Cheers swabbies.


----------



## Lohb

swannie007 said:


> Lohb, The H10 is not a true "balanced out" amp but has the ability to have balanced inputs and so I did this from the X10 which has balanced outputs. The headphone output, per se, is not a true balanced output but I suspect some sort of "pseudo" balanced output. I will install the balanced headphone cable to SE plug when it arrives and report if there is any improvement(to my ears!).  I know that this is not "true" balanced mode, but I am enjoying it immensely and, to my ears, the sound is clearer with better separation between instruments. As I have said before, THIS IS TO MY EARS, YMMV. Anyway, placebo or not, I am enjoying it immensely and consider it money well spent. My other stacks are getting very little play time as I am so taken with the Gustard stack and I suspect that I only use them due to feelings of guilt, having spent the money to purchase them. The Gustard stack gets about 80% of the play time, a clear indication of how happy I am with it. Cheers swabbies.


 

 Meir do an interesting 'active balanced ground driving' on a SE connection....but again different topology. I think that might be one part of why the portable they sell is great for planars.
 http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/  (ground driving button up top on the menus).
  
 Anyway, I just wondered why they went for balanced internally on H10 but no XLR on the front next to the SE plug. Usually with planars on SE vs balanced the comments are 'wider sound-staging/instrument separation and deeper bass' for balanced out....


----------



## Schopenhauer

lohb said:


> swannie007 said:
> 
> 
> > Lohb, The H10 is not a true "balanced out" amp but has the ability to have balanced inputs and so I did this from the X10 which has balanced outputs. The headphone output, per se, is not a true balanced output but I suspect some sort of "pseudo" balanced output. I will install the balanced headphone cable to SE plug when it arrives and report if there is any improvement(to my ears!).  I know that this is not "true" balanced mode, but I am enjoying it immensely and, to my ears, the sound is clearer with better separation between instruments. As I have said before, THIS IS TO MY EARS, YMMV. Anyway, placebo or not, I am enjoying it immensely and consider it money well spent. My other stacks are getting very little play time as I am so taken with the Gustard stack and I suspect that I only use them due to feelings of guilt, having spent the money to purchase them. The Gustard stack gets about 80% of the play time, a clear indication of how happy I am with it. Cheers swabbies.
> ...


 
 I wonder if we can expect an XLR output on the front panel of the forthcoming Gustard flagship.


----------



## swannie007

schopenhauer said:


> I wonder if we can expect an XLR output on the front panel of the forthcoming Gustard flagship.


 

 That would be a good move on their behalf, as long as they don't drop the SE output.


----------



## Schopenhauer

swannie007 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if we can expect an XLR output on the front panel of the forthcoming Gustard flagship.
> ...


 
 I agree. I'm not entirely sure yet whether I want to go balanced. I wouldn't want my hand forced.


----------



## Schopenhauer

It's shaping up to be a night of heavy listening.


----------



## swannie007

Seconds out....Round one. Come out fighting!


----------



## zilch0md

In my opinion, unless you've got a really long cable run between DAC and amp, where common mode noise rejection can be useful, the short interconnects between stacked components just don't warrant running balanced. 
  
 And my only interest in having balanced cables for my headphones is when I'm using an amp that offers more power to a balanced 4-pin jack than to a TRS jack - as with many portable and desktop "quad" push-pull amps.
  
 I've read that transducers can influence each other across the common ground of an unbalanced cable, by causing impedance fluctuations - which theoretically can influence the FR of dynamic headphones more than the almost purely resistive planar magnetics, but even with dynamic headphones, I have no idea what I would listen for in an attempt to detect these impedance fluctuations. Basically, I consider it a non-issue, as there are many very expensive headphone amps that do not offer balanced output and many very experienced buyers who are perfectly content with using the TRS jacks on these amps.
  
 Even with the HA-1, the 500 mW rms into 32-Ohms provided at the TRS jack is enough power to maximize the performance of the efficient PM-1 / PM-2.  I'm not alone in saying that I cannot hear any improvement, even with the power increase to 2000 mW rms, when using balanced cables with the PM-1 plugged into the HA-1's 4-Pin XLR jack. The LCD-2 rev.1, however, responds nicely to the additional power available at the 4-Pin jack, with better dynamics and bass control.
  
 Mike
  
 Edit:  Corrected a typo - Changed "HA-2" to "HA-1" in the last paragraph.


----------



## swannie007

Mike, Like I said, it may be placebo, but, it sure sounds better to me and thats good enough in my book. Besides, it looks cool as hell and impresses the visitors!  Cheers mate.


----------



## zilch0md

^ And even I would say _it can't hurt anything_ to go balanced between DAC and amp, or between amp and headphones, or both.
  
 It allows you to know you haven't left anything on the table, for sure.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Mike


----------



## swannie007

Yea, and it impresses the hell out of the natives!


----------



## Arnotts

Currently burning in the H10 through the M-Stage DAC with various headphones. It sounds full and punchy right now - definitely better than the M-Stage amp - but it's not a huge improvement yet (I've used it for about 13 hours so far).
  
 Also just bought a Gustard X12 with USB from Pollychen0306 for $499.99 USD including shipping .
  
 Happy listening, gentlemen!


----------



## lukeap69

Burn in of H10 - I heard the biggest difference in about 20 hours but it continuously improved (to my ears) up to around 200 hours. Now this may br placebo, IDK. 

That's a great price for the X12. Congrats!


----------



## lukeap69

Many pages ago, Swabbie Stuart and myself had a brief discussion of the balanced and SE connections. I agree with him that there maybe other factors including the balanced output implementation of the DAC etc. 

As Mike said, try both (if you can of course) and select what sounds (or looks) better...


----------



## stuartmc

arnotts said:


> Currently burning in the H10 through the M-Stage DAC with various headphones. It sounds full and punchy right now - definitely better than the M-Stage amp - but it's not a huge improvement yet (I've used it for about 13 hours so far).
> 
> Also just bought a Gustard X12 with USB from Pollychen0306 for $499.99 USD including shipping .
> 
> Happy listening, gentlemen!




Avast 'matey! Looks like we have another stack owner on the SS Gustard. Give them plenty of break in and do share your listening impressions. It will be nice to hear about someone else's experience with X12/H10. I'm pretty sure my experience is not anomalous, but ya never know.


----------



## natra084

I just received my U12 and X12 have hooked it up to my iMac but I have a question. with my other dac ifi nano when I hooked it up to my iMac I couldn't change the volume on my iMac but with the u12 and X12 I can change the volume on my iMac is that normal.


----------



## Arnotts

stuartmc said:


> Avast 'matey! Looks like we have another stack owner on the SS Gustard. Give them plenty of break in and do share your listening impressions. It will be nice to hear about someone else's experience with X12/H10. I'm pretty sure my experience is not anomalous, but ya never know.


 
 Will do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Currently using my Q701's and they've never sounded better. It's been about ~18 or so hours of having music playing through the amp now, and I've definitely noticed some sonic changes (whether real or imagined).
  
 Unfortunately, I'm recovering from a post-holiday bout of the flu, and my sinuses and ears aren't in the best condition. I can tell everything sounds good right now, but I won't be able to give proper impressions until I feel like my hearing is back to normal. At least by that time everything should have had enough time to burn in properly.
  
 Even in my current condition though, I'm very happy with the amp. The build quality is excellent and it's driven everything with authority so far. I'm excited to check out the synergy of the whole system with the X12!
  


natra084 said:


> I just received my U12 and X12 have hooked it up to my iMac but I have a question. with my other dac ifi nano when I hooked it up to my iMac I couldn't change the volume on my iMac but with the u12 and X12 I can change the volume on my iMac is that normal.


 
 I use a PC, but I've always been able to control the volume of the output from Windows itself. That sounds normal to me.
  
 What are your impressions of your Gustard stack so far, natra? It seems like you own a few Gustard products 
  


lukeap69 said:


> Burn in of H10 - I heard the biggest difference in about 20 hours but it continuously improved (to my ears) up to around 200 hours. Now this may br placebo, IDK.
> 
> That's a great price for the X12. Congrats!


 
  
 Thanks, man! I'm liking it so far, and I think I'm hearing some positive changes with continued use as well. Won't be able to say for sure for a week or so, though.


----------



## lukeap69

If I remember it right, Stuart mentioned that the X12 performs better after many hours of burning in. He seems to like it better than his Aune S16, so you can expect further improvement to your Gustard stack.


----------



## dermott

Is the consensus here that the H10 sounds as good as the V200, but with a larger soundstage? Was considering Violectric for my pre-fazor LCD-2.2. Is the Gustard a good option to pair with my Yulong DA8?


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> If I remember it right, Stuart mentioned that the X12 performs better after many hours of burning in. He seems to like it better than his Aune S16, so you can expect further improvement to your Gustard stack.




Quite true Luke. The X12 is very similar to the H10 in this regard. It has a very similar power supply with plenty of caps and regulators and a fully discrete analog output stage. They all require some burn in time to sound their best. I must be hearing sensitive to this stuff because I don't even like listening to my stack without at least a half hour of warm up time. It sounds a bit dry with a flattened soundstage when I first switch it all on.


----------



## FlySweep

dermott said:


> Is the consensus here that the H10 sounds as good as the V200, but with a larger soundstage? Was considering Violectric for my pre-fazor LCD-2.2. Is the Gustard a good option to pair with my Yulong DA8?


 
  
 I don't know how many H10 owners here have owned (or heard) the V200 (besides me).. so I'll just speak to my experience.
  
 I had the V200 quite some time ago.. so my memory about its particulars are a little hazy.  Looking back at my notes on it (and comparing it to the H10).. the H10 possesses a larger soundstage, better bandwidth, better tonal purity, and better clarity/instrument separation than the V200.  At the very least, it's every bit as good as the V200 (IME).. so it obviously offers much better value since it's nearly a third of the price of the V200.  I've owned a few pieces of Vio/LP gear in my time at HF (LP G109, Vio V800, Vio V200).. I enjoyed it all (especially the build quality.. wonderful!).. but if you're after that type of sound, technical ability, I think the Gustard gear offers better bang for the buck.


----------



## Schopenhauer

flysweep said:


> I'm with Mike.. it's great to see so many owners, new and old, happy with their Gustard gear.. thanks to everyone for keeping this thread moving with impressions and various points of reference.
> 
> @stuartmc .. congrats on the HE-560, bud.. see, I knew you'd like it
> 
> ...


 
 I wanted to second FlySweep's suggestion. I think it's an excellent idea to have a table of contents, as it were, for the H10. Or really, for Gustard gear in general since that's what this thread is about. If the OP isn't still following the thread, we could perhaps open another thread with the first post reserved for various impressions, reviews etc. of Gustard gear itself and its pairings with other gear(s). "The Gustard Audio Appreciation Thread" or something, captained of course by stuartmc! In the initial post we could provide links to the various places in this thread where particularly salient information etc. has been provided. Then we could all migrate over there. Or we could keep this running as a thread devoted exclusively to the H10 and double-post whatever is relevant.
  
 Of course, I don't want to put everything on stuartmc, but if he builds it, I'm sure we'll come. I'd gladly follow him to the new thread, as I'm sure many others would. It could be a sort of Gustard Country Club.


----------



## FlySweep

schopenhauer said:


> I wanted to second FlySweep's suggestion. I think it's an excellent idea to have a table of contents, as it were, for the H10. Or really, for Gustard gear in general since that's what this thread is about. If the OP isn't still following the thread, we could perhaps open another thread with the first post reserved for various impressions, reviews etc. of Gustard gear itself and its pairings with other gear(s). "The Gustard Audio Appreciation Thread" or something, captained of course by stuartmc! In the initial post we could provide links to the various places in this thread where particularly salient information etc. has been provided. Then we could all migrate over there. Or we could keep this running as a thread devoted exclusively to the H10 and double-post whatever is relevant.
> 
> Of course, I don't want to put everything on stuartmc, but if he builds it, I'm sure we'll come. I'd gladly follow him to the new thread, as I'm sure many others would. It could be a sort of Gustard Country Club.


 
  
 Great idea.. only change I'd make is to leave the word "appreciation" out of the (potential) new thread title.  In the interest of effectively informing and educating potential buyers, many "appreciation" can become less than ideal because, *at times*, negative impressions (even if they're valid and/or appropriately justified) can be discouraged due to the 'appreciation' connotation.  I'm not saying that's how it always is.. but in my time at HF, that's the way many 'appreciation' threads tend to feel.  To gloss over or wholly avoid the less desirable aspects of the "appreciated" gear does a disservice to potential buyers.  I feel we're lucky to have an honest, well informed, open minded group of folks here.. so I highly doubt this type of thing would happen, but it's just something to consider from a newcomer's perspective.


----------



## stuartmc

[CONTENTEMBED=/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/630#post_11261615 layout=inline]Quote:[/CONTENTEMBED]


flysweep said:


> Great idea.. only change I'd make is to leave the word "appreciation" out of the (potential) new thread title.  In the interest of effectively informing and educating potential buyers, many "appreciation" can become less than ideal because, *at times*, negative impressions (even if they're valid and/or appropriately justified) can be discouraged due to the 'appreciation' connotation.  I'm not saying that's how it always is.. but in my time at HF, that's the way many 'appreciation' threads tend to feel.  To gloss over or wholly avoid the less desirable aspects of the "appreciated" gear does a disservice to potential buyers.  I feel we're lucky to have an honest, well informed, open minded group of folks here.. so I highly doubt this type of thing would happen, but it's just something to consider from a newcomer's perspective.




Jeepers guys, this sounds like an awful lot of work. It would indeed be very cool, but since I'm not retired and just a wee bit html challenged, I don't know if I could do this to everyone's satisfaction.  I'll gladly pass the mantle of "captain guinea pig" to someone who has the time and talent to do this.  Speaking of retirement, you do know that we lawyers never retire, we just lose our appeal--ba da bing! 

I received a nice HDMI cable today made of pcocc and silver and just swapped it out for the el cheapo one I've been using between the U12 and X12.   Darned if it didn't sound much better right off the bat. Dag nab it, now I'm going to have to upgrade my usb cable too. I'm not really complaining because the sound I'm getting from Tidal, tablet and U12 is way better than I had hoped for.

FlySweeper, my love affair with MMW started with "Its a Jungle in Here" and was sealed with  "Friday Afternoon in the Universe" and "Shack-Man." I'm really liking the new "Juice" - it's somewhat less acid jazz and a little more straight a head jazz/funk. I'm now getting reacquainted with the early Holly Cole Trio stuff.  She is one of my favorite vocalists.


----------



## Schopenhauer

flysweep said:


> Great idea.. only change I'd make is to leave the word "appreciation" out of the (potential) new thread title.  In the interest of effectively informing and educating potential buyers, many "appreciation" can become less than ideal because, *at times*, negative impressions (even if they're valid and/or appropriately justified) can be discouraged due to the 'appreciation' connotation.  I'm not saying that's how it always is.. but in my time at HF, that's the way many 'appreciation' threads tend to feel.  To gloss over or wholly avoid the less desirable aspects of the "appreciated" gear does a disservice to potential buyers.  I feel we're lucky to have an honest, well informed, open minded group of folks here.. so I highly doubt this type of thing would happen, but it's just something to consider from a newcomer's perspective.


 
 I think that's an excellent correction. I went ahead and created the thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs. Let me know what should go in the first post and I'll create the table of contents as we go!


----------



## natra084

how do I make balanced input work with the H10 and X12.


----------



## Schopenhauer

Just posted my review of the ECP Black Diamond in which I compare it directly with the H10.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/ecp-audio-black-diamond/reviews/12463


----------



## stuartmc

Nice review Schopy. Very well written. However, what you failed to mention in the review, if I'm not mistaken, is the comparative price of these two amps. The ECP black diamond sells for $1600 on their site. The H10 can be had for $400. Where I come from, and I'm sure the same is true for you, an amp that costs 4X as much had better be WAY better in almost every regard and I'm not talking about a small amount. I mean you plug it in and you almost instantly say to yourself, yes, this is the ****! If it fails to do that, you either call the lower priced amp the bargain of the century, or, you must honestly admit that the higher priced amp is missing the mark on the price performance ratio. Of course I'm only yanking your chain because we already know the answer to this- the Gustard H10 is a ridiculous over-achiever at its price point.


----------



## lukeap69

Fair point Stu, although I agree about the big price difference, I like how Schopy compared the 2 amps like equal and that says a lot for the H10.

I think many of us will agree that the H10 really shines with planars. Schopy uses 2 planars HPs on his review and to me that worked in H10's advantage. I reckon (but cannot be sure of course) that if other cans have been used like the HD800, the Black Diamond may somehow show what it is really capable of. Not that H10 is not good for HD800, but there are amps that synergised well with it.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> Nice review Schopy. Very well written. However, what you failed to mention in the review, if I'm not mistaken, is the comparative price of these two amps. The ECP black diamond sells for $1600 on their site. The H10 can be had for $400. Where I come from, and I'm sure the same is true for you, an amp that costs 4X as much had better be WAY better in almost every regard and I'm not talking about a small amount. I mean you plug it in and you almost instantly say to yourself, yes, this is the ****! If it fails to do that, you either call the lower priced amp the bargain of the century, or, you must honestly admit that the higher priced amp is missing the mark on the price performance ratio. Of course I'm only yanking your chain because we already know the answer to this- the Gustard H10 is a ridiculous over-achiever at its price point.


 
 I think that's an excellent point. I've edited the "Closing thoughts" section to show that. In one sense, I almost think I wrote a guerilla review of the H10. At least, I would like it if people came away from the review wanting the H10.


----------



## stuartmc

lukeap69 said:


> Fair point Stu, although I agree about the big price difference, I like how Schopy compared the 2 amps like equal and that says a lot for the H10.
> 
> I think many of us will agree that the H10 really shines with planars. Schopy uses 2 planars HPs on his review and to me that worked in H10's advantage. I reckon (but cannot be sure of course) that if other cans have been used like the HD800, the Black Diamond may somehow show what it is really capable of. Not that H10 is not good for HD800, but there are amps that synergised well with it.




Point well taken. I didn't really focus on the planar magnetic sweet spot of the H10. I think it's fair to say that it's ridiculousness increases exponentially with the likes of Audeze and Hifiman. Perhaps a real advantage in Schopy's test.


----------



## Lorspeaker

has anyone compared the h10 to a BCL?


----------



## natra084

does anybody know how to activate the balanced inputs on the H10


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> does anybody know how to activate the balanced inputs on the H10




The two sets of dip switches on the back that control gain also have a switch on the far left side of each grouping that switches between balanced and unbalanced.


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> The two sets of dip switches on the back that control gain also have a switch on the far left side of each grouping that switches between balanced and unbalanced.



I don't understand could you maybe send a picture


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> I think that's an excellent point. I've edited the "Closing thoughts" section to show that. In one sense, I almost think I wrote a guerilla review of the H10. At least, I would like it if people came away from the review wanting the H10.




Your edit was superb. It's good to give folks the price/performance context and you nailed it.


----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


> I don't understand could you maybe send a picture



Look on the back panel of your H10. You have to see the little white switches surrounded by red under where it says left and right....


----------



## natra084

stuartmc said:


> Look on the back panel of your H10. You have to see the little white switches surrounded by red under where it says left and right....



ok Stewart so on the gain switches the number one on the left and right side should be at the top and then I can choose which games I want.sorry for my bed English


----------



## No_One411

natra084 said:


> ok Stewart so on the gain switches the number one on the left and right side should be at the top and then I can choose which games I want.sorry for my bed English


 
 OK.
  
 There are a total of 5 switches for each side. (Right and Left) 
  
 The left most switch, with the "unbalan" label over it should be flipped UP for balanced mode. 
  
 The 4 switches on the right of that switch adjust gain as labelled. It has PREGAIN label over that section.


----------



## natra084

no_one411 said:


> OK.
> 
> There are a total of 5 switches for each side. (Right and Left)
> 
> ...



thanks man


----------



## nayajoeun

Hey folks,

Does the H10 increase the lack of sub bass on the LCD2f's for those who have them?

I personally find that the LCDs only weakness and have been trying to find an amp that will boost it somewhat to pre Fazor levels  

Thank you for your help.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > I think that's an excellent point. I've edited the "Closing thoughts" section to show that. In one sense, I almost think I wrote a guerilla review of the H10. At least, I would like it if people came away from the review wanting the H10.
> ...


 

 Thanks! I certainly think I'd sell the Black Diamond before I'd sell the H10, if only because it would practically fund the purchase of another "flagship" all by itself.


----------



## natra084

does the X12 up sample


----------



## natra084




----------



## stuartmc

natra084 said:


>




Looking good Natra. I see that the U12 made it safely, so there was no need to worry. With the addition of this pin up, you are promoted to full swabbie status!


----------



## Schopenhauer

natra084 said:


>


 
 Very nice set up.


----------



## Schopenhauer

The Z7 is supposed to arrive tomorrow. If I'm able, I'll try to give a quick first impression. The Z7 isn't the headphone I'm receiving in lieu of the HE-6, but simply yet another headphone. I still haven't settled on what I'm going to replace the HE-6 with. Initially I thought the HE-560, but reports of treble etch have made me hesitant.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> The Z7 is supposed to arrive tomorrow. If I'm able, I'll try to give a quick first impression. The Z7 isn't the headphone I'm receiving in lieu of the HE-6, but simply yet another headphone. I still haven't settled on what I'm going to replace the HE-6 with. Initially I thought the HE-560, but reports of treble etch have made me hesitant.


 
Treble etch? .. That's a new one to me. Who exactly is making these reports? I would posit that the "etch" these folks are alleging comes entirely from their front ends or music source. What I hear from the 560 is definitely not inherently etched, harsh, or analytical. It is, however, honest to the source and whatever you feed it, you will hear.


----------



## Arnotts

I woke up this morning, turned on the PC and the amp/DAC and started listening to the LCD-2's.
  
 They only sounded OK. Not as dynamic, full or as spacious as they sounded last night. I turned the volume up a bit, to 10 o'clock from my normal 9 o'clock. Still the same thing. Then I vaguely remembered someone from this thread saying that they thought the H10 sounded better after having some time to warm up. Sounds crazy, but I thought I'd give it a try!
  
 I took the headphones off and left the amp on, playing music. I turned the volume back down to 9 and did some other things for about 15 minutes. Then I came back and put the LCD-2's back on. There we go - the sound was way more like I remembered it last night. Punchier, more exciting, more spacious (less congested) - even at 9 o'clock compared to 10 that I had tried earlier.
  
 Does it really make sense for the equipment to need a bit of a warm up before sounding its best? Or is it a bit of a mind trick? Either way, the H10 is sounding excellent. The X12 should arrive on Monday, too.


----------



## Lohb

arnotts said:


> I woke up this morning, turned on the PC and the amp/DAC and started listening to the LCD-2's.
> 
> They only sounded OK. Not as dynamic, full or as spacious as they sounded last night. I turned the volume up a bit, to 10 o'clock from my normal 9 o'clock. Still the same thing. Then I vaguely remembered someone from this thread saying that they thought the H10 sounded better after having some time to warm up. Sounds crazy, but I thought I'd give it a try!
> 
> ...


 

 It may be the volume of capacitors inside the box needing a bit of time to 'get in gear' ?
 I think that might be why Class A amps with a ton of caps inside such as Blue Circle recommend 'always on'.


----------



## Schopenhauer

That line of caps inside is so hot. Why would it ever need to warm up?


----------



## Schopenhauer

So, can anyone speak to their experience with dynamics on the H10, especially as regards the pregain settings? I've enabled the -6dB switches to pair with the Z7. I have to say: I was expecting a lot less from this headphone given how mixed the reviews were. I'm loving it. Great sense of air ("feel the air", after all). Very spacious when it comes to layering along the _z_-axis, though it doesn't have the widest soundstage. But f--- that, what does have the widest? Anyway, it's wide enough to impress with big-sounding tracks. It's a fast headphone, or fast enough for my purposes. And the comfort is out of this world. Excellent fit and light as a feather. I'm waiting for all the placebos to wear off.


----------



## Schopenhauer

Re: the Z7's airiness: Can't tell yet if it's just a bit of parlor trick tuning that'll get tired after awhile. I wouldn't say this can is neutral. I wouldn't say it's an all-rounder. Initial impression is it's tuned for contemporary electropop. Which is almost ok.


----------



## Schopenhauer

The H10 pushing 

 on the Z7 is a seriously raunch combination. I think the Z7 will show strong with techno.


----------



## puskuruk

Anyone can compare with o2 and describe sound signature of h10? I love o2 because o2 is a very transparent.


----------



## natra084

How long does this amplifier need to get burned in and do I have to play it nonstop to have it properly burned in.


----------



## Arnotts

puskuruk said:


> Anyone can compare with o2 and describe sound signature of h10? I love o2 because o2 is a very transparent.


 

 You'd get better results googling for comparisons between the Violectric V200 and the O2. The V200 is more well known.
  
 The H10 is very similar, and in some ways better (according to FlySweep) to the V200.


----------



## Kyno

puskuruk said:


> Anyone can compare with o2 and describe sound signature of h10? I love o2 because o2 is a very transparent.


 
  
 The O2 is indeed more transparent, but I spent a lot of time with the H10 these past few weeks, and trying back the O2 a few days ago, I put it on sale. The difference in everything but transparency was huge. On the contrary, it's not like the O2 is tremendously ahead on transparency.
  
 I'm still not sure I'll be keeping the H10 though. I didn't find it great with the HD-800, I'd be better off with a Crack for my T1 or HD650, and I've been told I can find better synergy with my HE-560, which is very likely. It's a nice comparison base and a good all-rounder, especially for the price I had it (250 € or so, the custom Crack+Speedball I have in mind is around 600 €), but it'll probably have to go at some point.
  
 As for the burn, I would go to a good 100h to be sure. Doesn't have to be 100h straight.


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> How long does this amplifier need to get burned in and do I have to play it nonstop to have it properly burned in.


 
 I left mine on for four days straight, playing music through it at least 70% of the time.  I think mine settled in just a little bit quicker than some have experienced, and here is what I did:
  
 1) Plugged it in and turned it on, powered up my DAC but played NO MUSIC through it, left everything on for 4 hours
 2) Then started playing music with volume knob at zero for while, then slowly brought it up after a few hours
 3) Day one ended with OK sound, nothing special but nothing really out of whack
 4) Day two started with the bass filling out, mids warming up, treble still lagging far behind, imaging still bunched up in the middle. This was actually quite pleasant with HD700 as they can be a bit bright and are image monsters that can spread things out and make the best of whatever the electronics are doing from a spacial perspective.
 5) Day three, things are coming together and sounding really good, starting to think I am now getting what I paid for and maybe even a bit more
 6) Day three ends with really good treble extension and everything sound really really good.
 7) Day four shows blacker blacks, image specificity, a real sense of strength and ease with dynamics and a smoother, more organic sound... this continues to just get a little better from day four through days 5 and 6.  I am now turning the amp off at night but also giving it a good 20-30 minutes to warm up each morning and leaving it on all day if I am working from home (about half the time back then).
  
 Most have reported full break in or at least having arrived at something special within 5-7 days.
  
 Love this amp.
  
 Brings the HD600 up to a whole new level for me, well beyond the Dragonfly for instance, which was a nice kick up from my laptop's headphone jack.
  
 Pairs nicely with the HD700, nothing to complain about there at all.
  
 Pairs with the HE-560 like it's nobody's business, if you own or are thinking about any planar headphone I would highly suggest you seek out a demo with the H10.... I would not be surprised if it becomes the de-facto value king for planars, period.


----------



## Kyno

.


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> I left mine on for four days straight, playing music through it at least 70% of the time.  I think mine settled in just a little bit quicker than some have experienced, and here is what I did:
> 
> 1) Plugged it in and turned it on, powered up my DAC but played NO MUSIC through it, left everything on for 4 hours
> 2) Then started playing music with volume knob at zero for while, then slowly brought it up after a few hours
> ...



Thanks for the reply I've been long thinking about buying the HD700. I have the 650 but does the H10 keep the 700 in check so they don't get too bright.


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> Thanks for the reply I've been long thinking about buying the HD700. I have the 650 but does the H10 keep the 700 in check so they don't get too bright.


 
  
 I think it does, but only slightly... The HD700 are really tricky and you have to hear them for yourself.  This is always a good idea of course, but even more so for the HD700 and perhaps a few other headphones that have generated such intensely different user experiences.  If you like the HD700 overall, across many DACs and amps like I do, then you will love the H10 as they really take control of things.  The HD700 is easier to drive than HD650 and not quite as finicky as HD800, but it does follow the HD800 really well...anything that works great with HD800 seems to be a safe bet with HD700.
  
 But... the H10 is nicely extended up top, it does not sound very rolled off to me if at all, but it does have a warm overall signature, so that helps.  It does have fantastic, well controlled bass and full bodied mids, so that helps a bit to.  The H10 does help the HD700 maintain a more healthy balance IMHO, but it does not do quite as much to tame the highs as some of the tube amps seem to do.  If the HD700 was going to be my main go to headphone, I would go with a tube amp.  If I had a few other high end headphones or planned on adding them, I would definitely go with an H10 because I think it sounds great with everything from Grado up through Hifiman.  I am also eagerly awaiting the AKG K7XX as I had given up on AKG about a year ago but reports have been good with this pairing and I like having headphones with distinctly different personalities and an amp that will keep them all in check.  I think the H10 is that amp.


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> I think it does, but only slightly... The HD700 are really tricky and you have to hear them for yourself.  This is always a good idea of course, but even more so for the HD700 and perhaps a few other headphones that have generated such intensely different user experiences.  If you like the HD700 overall, across many DACs and amps like I do, then you will love the H10 as they really take control of things.  The HD700 is easier to drive than HD650 and not quite as finicky as HD800, but it does follow the HD800 really well...anything that works great with HD800 seems to be a safe bet with HD700.
> 
> But... the H10 is nicely extended up top, it does not sound very rolled off to me if at all, but it does have a warm overall signature, so that helps.  It does have fantastic, well controlled bass and full bodied mids, so that helps a bit to.  The H10 does help the HD700 maintain a more healthy balance IMHO, but it does not do quite as much to tame the highs as some of the tube amps seem to do.  If the HD700 was going to be my main go to headphone, I would go with a tube amp.  If I had a few other high end headphones or planned on adding them, I would definitely go with an H10 because I think it sounds great with everything from Grado up through Hifiman.  I am also eagerly awaiting the AKG K7XX as I had given up on AKG about a year ago but reports have been good with this pairing and I like having headphones with distinctly different personalities and an amp that will keep them all in check.  I think the H10 is that amp.


 
 Thanks for the reply I'm searching for some headphones that are good movies.


----------



## robi2000

get the influence from this thread, it has been a week i have this amp. been playing it at least 4 hours daily.

it was amaaaaaziiing listening experience with Beyerdynamic T90 and Audio Technica ATH-MSR7.

it was nice and sweet listening at low volume.

it was wide stage and punchy on high volume.

really a phenomenal amplifier.

the 2 source i throw in, ibasso dx90 and fiio x3, both sound excellent.

this year i found 2 gears that surprise me big time from China hifi maker: Cayin C5 and this Gustard H10.

thumbs up! and let me continue my ear bliss session.


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> Thanks for the reply I'm searching for some headphones that are good movies.


 
  
 I think many folks would tell you the HD650 sounds great for movies, hard to beat if you like open back headphones.  I would look at Sony MDR-Z7 (haven't hear them, but tracking all the feedback...) for movies, but I am always finding myself cringing from harsh highs and dialogue found on many TV and Movie soundtracks.  I have used my HD700 for late night TV and movies so as not to disturb my family, but more often than not I switch to my HD600 most of the time.  For gaming, where the fine details and spatial cues can make a difference, HD700 all the way.


----------



## puskuruk

Thank you for all but I love neutral and analaytical things. I understand from your v200 comparisons this not good for me. If I'm wrong I will be happy because I searching new and powerful amplifier for my hd540 600 ohm.


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> I think many folks would tell you the HD650 sounds great for movies, hard to beat if you like open back headphones.  I would look at Sony MDR-Z7 (haven't hear them, but tracking all the feedback...) for movies, but I am always finding myself cringing from harsh highs and dialogue found on many TV and Movie soundtracks.  I have used my HD700 for late night TV and movies so as not to disturb my family, but more often than not I switch to my HD600 most of the time.  For gaming, where the fine details and spatial cues can make a difference, HD700 all the way.





greggo said:


> I think many folks would tell you the HD650 sounds great for movies, hard to beat if you like open back headphones.  I would look at Sony MDR-Z7 (haven't hear them, but tracking all the feedback...) for movies, but I am always finding myself cringing from harsh highs and dialogue found on many TV and Movie soundtracks.  I have used my HD700 for late night TV and movies so as not to disturb my family, but more often than not I switch to my HD600 most of the time.  For gaming, where the fine details and spatial cues can make a difference, HD700 all the way.



For me the 650 does not have great soundstage and are not that good for movie watching I would like to have some headphones that have a wider soundstage.


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> For me the 650 does not have great soundstage and are not that good for movie watching I would like to have some headphones that have a wider soundstage.


 
  
 Fair enough, my HD600 are not champs in that regard either, but I do find them adequate for my taste.  Maybe others will jump in here as I don't have any other ideas to offer.  I know you have the full Gustard stack now and I am assuming it is all fairly well burned in at this point, so if you don't like what the HD650 is doing for you now with movies it is time to move on and try some alternatives.  If you want more space but don't mind losing some bass, the AKG Q701, K701, K7XX or the K712 might be worth a try.  I don't think the K7XX is available outside the US but I am not sure.


----------



## natra084

greggo said:


> Fair enough, my HD600 are not champs in that regard either, but I do find them adequate for my taste.  Maybe others will jump in here as I don't have any other ideas to offer.  I know you have the full Gustard stack now and I am assuming it is all fairly well burned in at this point, so if you don't like what the HD650 is doing for you now with movies it is time to move on and try some alternatives.  If you want more space but don't mind losing some bass, the AKG Q701, K701, K7XX or the K712 might be worth a try.  I don't think the K7XX is available outside the US but I am not sure.



what is your thoughts about the momentums


----------



## Schopenhauer

natra084 said:


> greggo said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough, my HD600 are not champs in that regard either, but I do find them adequate for my taste.  Maybe others will jump in here as I don't have any other ideas to offer.  I know you have the full Gustard stack now and I am assuming it is all fairly well burned in at this point, so if you don't like what the HD650 is doing for you now with movies it is time to move on and try some alternatives.  If you want more space but don't mind losing some bass, the AKG Q701, K701, K7XX or the K712 might be worth a try.  I don't think the K7XX is available outside the US but I am not sure.
> ...


 
 The H10 would be complete overkill for the Momentums, I would think. You'd at least want to engage the -12dB. As it happens, I've found that the -12dB might work best, to my ears at least, with the Z7.


----------



## natra084

schopenhauer said:


> The H10 would be complete overkill for the Momentums, I would think. You'd at least want to engage the -12dB. As it happens, I've found that the -12dB might work best, to my ears at least, with the Z7.



I know but I want some portable headphones that sounds good with movies any recommendations.


----------



## Schopenhauer

natra084 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > The H10 would be complete overkill for the Momentums, I would think. You'd at least want to engage the -12dB. As it happens, I've found that the -12dB might work best, to my ears at least, with the Z7.
> ...


 
 Hm. The Z7 is a pretty serious headphone and is reasonably portable. You might look at the MDR-1A.


----------



## Schopenhauer

@lukeap69 I love your location, btw.


----------



## lukeap69

schopenhauer said:


> @lukeap69
> I love your location, btw.




Hahaha. I thought nobody would notice. Cheers


----------



## Arnotts

@Schopenhauer have you ever considered a DAC upgrade, or do you find the differences between DACs insignificant?
  
 Also, nice location, lukeap69 (;


----------



## Greggo

natra084 said:


> I know but I want some portable headphones that sounds good with movies any recommendations.


 
  
 I don't want to say too much more here because this should probably go into another thread you might want start in either full size or portable headphone section of equipment forums... I agree with Schopenhauer regarding the momentums.  Based on what you have described thus far and the equipment you have, you really should check out:
  
 Sony Z7
 Shure SRH-1540
 ATH-M50x or new M70
 One of the Alpha or Perception or any other variation on the Fostex planar driver...
  
 If you really do want a portable headphone, I can't think of any that would keep up with the list above for movie watching, but my favorite portable is the KEF M500, just a brilliant design and great sound... and I am tempted to try out the Focal Spirit One S, not much else appeals to me in this category but you will find bunches of opinions in the two headphone sections.


----------



## Greggo

lukeap69 said:


> Hahaha. I thought nobody would notice. Cheers


 
  
 Yes, very nice!


----------



## dermott

lukeap69 said:


> Hahaha. I thought nobody would notice. Cheers


 

 Noticed something else in your profile. You have a Ragnarok! At over 5 times the price of the H10, what percentage of performance do you feel you get from the H10 when compared to the Rag? I have a Yulong DA8 and want to pair it with a worthy upgrade amp. The H10 seems like a great deal, but I want to know if not taking advantage of having a fully balanced rig is a mistake. Pre-Fazor LCD-2 cans (50 ohms).


----------



## lukeap69

arnotts said:


> @Schopenhauer have you ever considered a DAC upgrade, or do you find the differences between DACs insignificant?
> 
> Also, nice location, lukeap69 (;


 
  
  


greggo said:


> Yes, very nice!


 
  
 You are all welcome to join me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks.


dermott said:


> Noticed something else in your profile. You have a Ragnarok! At over 5 times the price of the H10, what percentage of performance do you feel you get from the H10 when compared to the Rag? I have a Yulong DA8 and want to pair it with a worthy upgrade amp. The H10 seems like a great deal, but I want to know if not taking advantage of having a fully balanced rig is a mistake. Pre-Fazor LCD-2 cans (50 ohms).


 
  
 I did not pay that much for the Rag, thanks to a local head-fier. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 TBH, I don't know how to measure performance of these amps in percentage or whatever (that's a surprise since I am an engineer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Also, if I didn't have the HD800, I may not have been interested with the Rag. Even if the H10 pairs very good with the HD800, I felt the HD800 will perform better with other amps and the Rag came along... 
  
 In terms of SQ difference, IMO the Rag is more resolving, has better layering, smoother high but extended, tighter bass and better dynamics. That is when paired with the HD800. The same is true when using my Q701. But with the Oppo PM-1, the difference is not that apparent. Having said that, I believe the H10 pairs really, really well with planars. I wish I have an LCD-2 to test it but I don't. Perhaps other head-fiers can chime in and provide their impressions.


----------



## FlySweep

I had an LCD-2F a while back that I paired with Gustard H10.. I loved the combo.  Very clean, dynamic, and exquisitely controlled.  Again, no real coloration.. just a touch of (welcome) liquidity in the mids.  As I've noted before, I'm hard pressed to think of any planar (outside of the HE-6) that wouldn't sound great with the H10.  IME, the H10 is solid state 'done right' with the HD650, HE-560, and LCD-2F.. and even the HD800.  With the latter, it may not wow your pants off.. but I found it very very good and quite listenable.


----------



## Schopenhauer

arnotts said:


> @Schopenhauer have you ever considered a DAC upgrade, or do you find the differences between DACs insignificant?
> 
> Also, nice location, lukeap69 (;


 
 I've considered a DAC upgrade, even if it's simply to the HRT Music Streamer HD. But I've always opted to go with either a new headphone or a new amp instead. It'll probably happen soon, though. Wouldn't mind trying out the Gungnir.


----------



## dermott

flysweep said:


> I had an LCD-2F a while back that I paired with Gustard H10.. I loved the combo.  Very clean, dynamic, and exquisitely controlled.  Again, no real coloration.. just a touch of (welcome) liquidity in the mids.  As I've noted before, I'm hard pressed to think of any planar (outside of the HE-6) that wouldn't sound great with the H10.  IME, the H10 is solid state 'done right' with the HD650, HE-560, and LCD-2F.. and even the HD800.  With the latter, it may not wow your pants off.. but I found it very very good and quite listenable.


 

 It sounds like planars (or at least the LCD-2) may not scale as well as cans like the HD800. Blessing or a curse depending on point of view? Not able to show off better amplification and such, but also easier to achieve great sound when driven adequately as they have this inherently? I am just curious if a fully balanced system needs better cans to appreciate the benefit. I like the sound of my LCD-2s, so I am looking to find that balance of giving them what they need to sound their best but not needlessly spend money on an amp that overshoots their ability to scale.


----------



## stuartmc

Arrrrr..Swabbies. Captain Guinea Pig of the SS Gustard checking in for another episode of Trimming the Sails and Cleaning the Bilge, aka, tweaking all things Gustard.  

So, having ventured into the the high seas of USB audio, I decided to play with the new Gustard U12 and particularly its connection and cable opportunities.  This is all quite new to me and my sea chest full of bounty (all the crap I accumuliated over years of reviewing) didn't include any usb cables or hdmi cables for the I2S connection between U12 and X12, so I had to walk the plank and actually buy some.  Here is a another pin up of the current configuration 




Ok, no wise cracks about the pink Xiaomi Mipad.  The SS Gustard does not discriminate and it's actually for breast cancer awareness, Ha Ha (actually I got a stupid good deal on it probably because it _was_ pink and hey, its my bedside rig and the girlfriend likes it) . Behind it stands the U12 with a Shakti Stone on top. The Shakti stone is pretty good at absorbing stray emi/rfi and mass loads the U12 so the little guy doesn't tip over when you plug in a heavy high-end power cord. On top of the Shakti is my Hidizs AP100 that I use for flac files. I run its digital output to the AES input on the X12. 

I had three usb cable contenders all of which were pretty budget friendly. One was a Cables Matter deal from Amazon, the second was a Pangea solid silver one and the third was the Oyaide Neo d+ Class S.  I didn 't pay over $100 for either of the pricier two.  I thought it would be a waste to connect a good cable into an el-cheapo OTG cable lead, so I shopped around and found the shortest quality OTG connector I could find.


I guess nobody thinks of these things, because it was damn hard to find. This one came from a non-amazon provider out of Brooklyn, NY. I already knew that digital coax cables do sound different, so I'm not exactly one of those bits-is-bits guys, but whoah! I was not expecting to hear such a big difference in usb cables.  I won't bore you all with the details, but the Oyaide cable from Japan smoked the other two handily.  If I were to speculate, and I always do, I would think there are a few things going on with their design that gives them an advantage.  Its a flat cable and the power line is separated as much as possible from the signal lines. They are also using PCOCC conductors with 18awg  for the power liine and 22awg for the signal lines. That's way heavier gauge then most use. The S Class also uses very nice platinum and rhodium connectors.   I don't mean to sound like an Oyaide salesman, but when I did my research, I found them to be very engineering oriented and kept their products reasonably priced.  I tried like heck to find an HDMI cable from them, but couldn't find any place familiar that sells them....and that's my segway to the HDMI cables comparison --

As we all know, the new X12 has added an I2S input, so we can utilize this connection from the U12.   I had again three relatively inexpensive HDMI cable contenders - a no name high res model, A Pangea copper/silver one and a Neotech cryo treated copper/silver model.  I had tried the various connections between U12 and X12, and the I2S sounded best to me.  Of course this may be effected by various cables used, but at least in theory, the I2S is the superior connection, keeping the clock line separate and reducing jitter.  I could have been influenced by this knowledge, but heck, I at least _thought_ I heard improved blackness and resolution with it.   There was, to me, an audible difference in the cables I used, but it was slight and not nearly as significant as the difference between the usb cables.  This time I gave the nod to the Pangea HDMI.

I read a lot of material on the bits-is-bits and bits-aint-bits debate and came to the conclusion that emi/rfi and the attendant jitter effects are probably responsible for much of the differences we hear.  With that in mind, I decided to get serious about eliminating as much emi/rfi as possible.  I had played around with ferrite cores, power cord sleaves and Stillpoint ERS cloth in the past, so I have a pretty good feel for what improvements can be had.  I found some folks touting a 3M product that is an extremely effective emi/rfi  absorber that just happens to come in self adhesive sheets you can cut and stick over the worst offenders on the motherboard. It is not conductive, so you stick it right onto the board with no fear of shorting anything, something you couldn't do with the ERS cloth.  It's the 3M AB-5100S and being a 1mm thick and with an adhesive considered safe up to 185 degrees, It should provide some mechanical/vibration damping as well as the emi absorption.   The stuff is expensive, usually selling for around $75 for a 210mm x 297mm sheet, but I found an ebay source for $40 -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161437349302?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is an idea of what it looks like on the Audio-Gd Master 7, courtesy of head-fier  [COLOR=FF4400]evillamer[/COLOR] -




  

The word is that most of the nasty emi/rfi stuff is produced early in the digital chain, so the U12 will be the first place I start. I intend to cover all of the IC's and clock crystals on the board and hit some of the reflective surfaces too.  If this goes well, and I will report on the procedure and results, I will move on to the X12.  So stay tuned Swabbies.


----------



## Utopia

Any thoughts on how the H10 might compare against the Audio GD SA-31?


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


>


 
 This seriously needs to be your avatar.


----------



## auvgeek

Purchased a used LCD-2F and H10 today. I'm very excited.
  
 This thread definitely helped. Many thanks to all the major contributors. My wallet hates you, but (I hope) my ears love you.


----------



## lukeap69

Nice. Let us know how it goes...


----------



## stuartmc

auvgeek said:


> Purchased a used LCD-2F and H10 today. I'm very excited.
> 
> This thread definitely helped. Many thanks to all the major contributors. My wallet hates you, but (I hope) my ears love you.




I feel your (wallet) pain, LOL. I don't think we have found a planar magnetic the H10 doesn't love. Welcome to the ship.


----------



## auvgeek

Thanks. I'm really excited! I just bought the HE-500 last week, but I don't think it's being driven particularly well by the Audio-gd Compass (OG) I have. I suspect I'll get rid of the HE-500 and keep the LCD-2F, but I'll let my ears decide. I'll report my impressions of both cans after I burn in the amp.
  
 Sorry if this is a dumb question or if it's been covered before, but does anybody have a specific suggestion for an (inexpensive) RCA cable to run from the Compass to the H10? Are the monoprice ones a price/value, or is there something significantly better for close to $25?
  
 Also: the Compass has lines for pre-amp out and DAC out. I'm assuming I'll want to use the pre-amp out?
  
 I'll probably try to upgrade the DAC at some point, but I definitely need to let my bank account recover for a (long) while.


----------



## Schopenhauer

auvgeek said:


> Thanks. I'm really excited! I just bought the HE-500 last week, but I don't think it's being driven particularly well by the Audio-gd Compass (OG) I have. I suspect I'll get rid of the HE-500 and keep the LCD-2F, but I'll let my ears decide. I'll report my impressions of both cans after I burn in the amp.
> 
> Sorry if this is a dumb question or if it's been covered before, but does anybody have a specific suggestion for an (inexpensive) RCA cable to run from the Compass to the H10? Are the monoprice ones a price/value, or is there something significantly better for close to $25?
> 
> ...


 
 The HE-500 pairs awesomely with the H10. 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/240#post_11132188
  
 Edit: I mention the LCD-2F in that post. As it turns out, I don't have the LCD-2F but the LCD-2.2. It's a long story. Bought the headphone new from an authorized dealer _after _the Fazor tech had been rolled out, so I thought I had a Fazorized model. Nope. Got boned by the man. Although it was probably just an honest mistake.


----------



## auvgeek

Yeah, I read that post


schopenhauer said:


> The HE-500 pairs awesomely with the H10.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/240#post_11132188
> 
> Edit: I mention the LCD-2F in that post. As it turns out, I don't have the LCD-2F but the LCD-2.2. It's a long story. Bought the headphone new from an authorized dealer _after _the Fazor tech had been rolled out, so I thought I had a Fazorized model. Nope. Got boned by the man. Although it was probably just an honest mistake.


 

 Yeah, I read that post MANY times this last week before grabbing the H10. I'm very excited! I'm pretty curious why the HE-500 scales up better than the Audeze, but I guess I'll see it for myself!
  
 I was waffling between the LCD-2F and the HE-560, and I missed a really nice pair of modded HE-560s last week. When the Audeze popped up this morning, I jumped on the deal. I think I bought them at a good enough price that I could resell them for not much loss. I was hoping the LCD-2F would have more of a percussion (drums) presence than the HE-560, which I've read is a little brighter, but I guess we'll see. I also have a pair of DT-880s (250 ohm), and I wanted something a little different. I'll be sure to include how those do with the H10, as well.


----------



## stuartmc

auvgeek said:


> Sorry if this is a dumb question or if it's been covered before, but does anybody have a specific suggestion for an (inexpensive) RCA cable to run from the Compass to the H10? Are the monoprice ones a price/value, or is there something significantly better for close to $25?
> 
> Also: the Compass has lines for pre-amp out and DAC out. I'm assuming I'll want to use the pre-amp out?


 
 I would think DAC out would be better for you.  The pre-amp out has variable level and puts some additional circuity into the signal path. It's just not needed when you will be controlling the volume with the H10.   As far as cheap RCA's are concerned, I can't give you any advice except to say that they do all sound different to me.  The Audio-Gd Compass doesn't have XLR outputs so you can't take advantage of the XLR inputs on the H10.  I prefer the XLR's and I'm using Analysis-Plus Silver Oval-Ins in this application. They're only a mere $875 for 1m pair.  Talk about audio jewelry!! But, they seriously trounce everything else I have.


----------



## auvgeek

stuartmc said:


> I would think DAC out would be better for you.  The pre-amp out has variable level and puts some additional circuity into the signal path. It's just not needed when you will be controlling the volume with the H10.   As far as cheap RCA's are concerned, I can't give you any advice except to say that they do all sound different to me.  The Audio-Gd Compass doesn't have XLR outputs so you can't take advantage of the XLR inputs on the H10.  I prefer the XLR's and I'm using Analysis-Plus Silver Oval-Ins in this application. They're only a mere $875 for 1m pair.  Talk about audio jewelry!! But, they seriously trounce everything else I have.


 

 I'm in serious envy of your set-up. I'll probably get something cheap so I can splurge later when I upgrade my DAC and go the XLR route.
  
 Thanks for the response.


----------



## Lohb

auvgeek said:


> Sorry if this is a dumb question or if it's been covered before, but does anybody have a specific suggestion for an (inexpensive) RCA cable to run from the Compass to the H10? Are the monoprice ones a price/value, or is there something significantly better for close to $25?


 

 Anti-Cables entry-level RCA set are pretty neutral for $25 more...


----------



## natra084

Hi if somebody's interested to buy my H10 please contact me.


----------



## zilch0md

lohb said:


> Anti-Cables entry-level RCA set are pretty neutral for $25 more...


 
  
 I love my "cheap" Anti-Cables RCA interconnects!
  
 Seen here with the Metrum Octave MkII and Aurix:
  

  
 Mike


----------



## nayajoeun

.


----------



## Lorspeaker

natra084 said:


> Hi if somebody's interested to buy my H10 please contact me.


 
  
  
 yyyyy r u sellg....


----------



## natra084

lorspeaker said:


> yyyyy r u sellg....



yes


----------



## puskuruk

He didn't reply my pm.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> This seriously needs to be your avatar.


 
  
 Your wish has been reviewed by the high court of Admiralty and much to my delight, they have deigned it a worthy avatar for this ignoble Scotsman.


----------



## natra084

Here is my review on the gustard x12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBLOtZYV6A8&feature=youtu.be


----------



## GioF71

Hello everyone
Having just bought a new Sennheiser HD 650 headphone, I'd like to also buy a better amp. I am currently using a Yulong D200, which I enjoy, but I am considering a separate unit.
So the dilemma is...
to buy a gustard h10 or a Yulong A28.
The latter would require a balanced cable to shine; I would first try diy by modifiying a standard hd 650 replacement cable (should I find one to buy from Italy for a decent price).
The sennheiser balanced cable for hd650 has a hefty price tag, which I am not willing to pay at the moment.

Which is the wiser option on your opinion? alternatives appreciated in a similar price range.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## Schopenhauer

I have a new playmate for the H10. Expect reflections. Perhaps in the form of another comparative review.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > This seriously needs to be your avatar.
> ...


 
 They made the right decision. lol. I can't get over that picture. Where did you find it?


----------



## Schopenhauer

natra084 said:


> Here is my review on the gustard x12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBLOtZYV6A8&feature=youtu.be


 
 Added to the general Gustard thread.
  
 Stuart, didn't you have an X12 review earlier in the thread?


----------



## swannie007

Great avatar for the supreme guinea pig!


----------



## Lohb

Something I've not always seen in spec sheets for headphone amps..
  
 Damping Factor:> 400 @ 50ohm
  
 Why is this making such a difference with planars (as well as adequate current with headroom) to make them perform at their best, and is it an extreme ratio this amp designer is using ?


----------



## Arnotts

I got a pair of LCD-X's a couple of days ago, as well. Running them from the H10 + M-Stage DAC right now and they sound fantastic. Still waiting on the X12 (Pollychen seems to have had issues with shipping, so he only just sent it out properly 2 weeks after paying).
  
 Immediately I could tell the LCD-X's are more refined than the LCD-2F's, but the 2's are more forgiving. The X's have better imaging with more space between sounds. They have even greater bass extension with a little bit more slam, as well as being a little bit brighter (but not harsh or sibilant). The differences are readily apparent, but the X's are not better in EVERY way compared to the 2's - they're just better in most ways. The 2F's would be less fatiguing over time and make vocals sound even smoother and up-front compared to the X's. The 2F's also have a more "closed in" sound, which to some people might be preferable - the X's feel like you can hear MORE into the music and pick sounds apart with greater ease.
  
 The more I listen to the X's, though, the more I enjoy them. I didn't find any apparent "flaws" with the 2F's, but the X's still improved on them in many ways. I'm going to keep both of them 
  
 I'm really excited to hear the headphones through the X12 + H10, as well as the Geek Pulse.


----------



## manbear

Can anyone comment on the H10 versus Nuforce HA-200?

I'm selling my Ember and getting a solid state amp because I've found that I prefer my Cayin C5 to the Ember on my current headphones, the HE-400i. The Ember is a little too bright with a sort of hazy tension in the music. 

I'm leaning towards the Nuforce because it is single ended class A, but I don't really know. Looking for something with a clean, effortless sound. Maybe a little warm. No glare or hardness is important.


----------



## zilch0md

manbear said:


> Can anyone comment on the H10 versus Nuforce HA-200?
> 
> I'm selling my Ember and getting a solid state amp because I've found that I prefer my Cayin C5 to the Ember on my current headphones, the HE-400i. The Ember is a little too bright with a sort of hazy tension in the music.
> 
> I'm leaning towards the Nuforce because it is single ended class A, but I don't really know. Looking for something with a clean, effortless sound. Maybe a little warm. No glare or hardness is important.


 
  
 I still haven't heard the H10, but I love the HA-200 as a solution for the HD800, which is known to be bright,fatiguing, and even harsh with less than ideal amps. The OPPO HA-1's amp section, for example, sounds great with planar magnetic headphones (Audeze LCD-2 and PM-1), but I found it to be incompatible with the HD800.  The low negative-feedback design of the truly single-ended, Class A NuForce HA-200, on the other hand makes it an amp that I could live with, forever, as a solution for the HD800, and it still does a great job with the planar magnetics. 
  
 Unfortunately, I can't tell you how the H10 compares in dealing with intrinsically bright, unforgiving, analytical headphones.


----------



## manbear

zilch0md said:


> I still haven't heard the H10, but I love the HA-200 as a solution for the HD800, which is known to be bright,fatiguing, and even harsh with less than ideal amps. The OPPO HA-1's amp section, for example, sounds great with planar magnetic headphones (Audeze LCD-2 and PM-1), but I found it to be incompatible with the HD800.  The low negative-feedback design of the truly single-ended, Class A NuForce HA-200, on the other hand makes it an amp that I could live with, forever, as a solution for the HD800, and it still does a great job with the planar magnetics.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can't tell you how the H10 compares in dealing with intrinsically bright, unforgiving, analytical headphones.




Thanks. Your comments on the HA-200 in another thread got me intrigued. I'm curious though, why do you say the HA-200 "still" does well with planar magnetics? That phrasing suggests some kind of tradeoff to me but I could just be imagining things.

Likewise, why do people say the H10 does especially well with planars? What does that mean? I'm skeptical that it has anything to do with damping factor as planars tend to be the least sensitive to damping factor.


----------



## zilch0md

manbear said:


> Thanks. Your comments on the HA-200 in another thread got me intrigued. I'm curious though, why do you say the HA-200 "still" does well with planar magnetics? That phrasing suggests some kind of tradeoff to me but I could just be imagining things.
> 
> Likewise, why do people say the H10 does especially well with planars? What does that mean? I'm skeptical that it has anything to do with damping factor as planars tend to be the least sensitive to damping factor.


 
  
 I say that only because I had no problem to solve for my LCD-2 and PM-1, thanks to the OPPO HA-1, when I continued shopping for amps for only one reason - to take the last bit of brittle edginess off of the HD800.  That was accomplished with the HA-200 - the first amp I'd heard that allowed the HD800 to retain its strengths while also dealing with its weaknesses.  
  
 So, I didn't buy the HA-200 in hopes of it competing with the OPPO HA-1 for use with my planar magnetics. 
  
 The NuForce HA-200 has a maximum output of 2000 mW into 32-Ohms, which translates to about 1400 mW rms (70% of peak).
  
 The OPPO HA-1 has a "continuous" output of 2000 mW rms into 32-Ohms, but only via the balanced 4-Pin XLR jack.
  
 In truth, the difference in power output is inaudible, as I can't hear any difference between the HA-200 and HA-1, in terms of dynamics and bass control, with either the LCD-2 or the PM-1. But the HA-1 is brighter than the HA-200, which is a nice match to the shelved highs of the LCD-2 rev.1. The PM-1, on the other hand, though described by some (?) as having rolled-off treble, is in my opinion, brighter than the LCD-2 rev.1, and thus I prefer the PM-1 with the HA-200, which itself, is not as bright as the HA-1.  
  
 If I had to live with only one amp for all three headphones, it would be the HA-200, and I would feel as if I'm suffering almost no compromise when using it with the LCD-2 or PM-1.  I couldn't tolerate using the HA-1 as my only amp for the same three headphones.  The HD800 was a hairs-breath away from getting sold when I discovered the HA-200.
  
 I've since gone on to replace the HA-200 with a Metrum Aurix - for use with the HD800.  The Aurix does an even better job with the HD800, but is nowhere near as general-purpose an amp as the HA-200, at least not when used with the Metrum Octave MkII DAC.  I find the Metrum DAC and amp to be a little too "rich" sounding for the LCD-2, although it's pretty nice with the PM-1.  The LCD-2 brings so much of its own color to the game, that I much prefer the neutral mids and bass of the OPPO HA-1 and slightly energetic treble of that amp.  But with the Aurix, the LCD-2 is almost syrupy.  
  
 Again, the HA-200 is the best of the bunch for making every headphone happy, just as the PM-1 is known for having a general-purpose, almost "boring" nature, that has no annoying traits and finds itself compatible with just about any gear.
  
 In short, there's a perfect DAC and amp out there for every headphone and taste, but some components mix and match better than others.  The HA-200 is just such an amp.  From what I've read so far in this thread, the Gustard H10 will better serve those who prefer the sound of planar magnetics, than it will serve those who like the HD800 or Grado sound.  Again, I've yet to hear the H10, however, so seek the opinions of others, here.
  
 Mike


----------



## 4Real

zilch0md said:


> I say that only because I had no problem to solve for my LCD-2 and PM-1, thanks to the OPPO HA-1, when I continued shopping for amps for only one reason - to take the last bit of brittle edginess off of the HD800.  That was accomplished with the HA-200 - the first amp I'd heard that allowed the HD800 to retain its strengths while also dealing with its weaknesses.
> 
> So, I didn't buy the HA-200 in hopes of it competing with the OPPO HA-1 for use with my planar magnetics.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Maybe I'm missing something but if you download the manual for the HA-200 it gives a lower rating for max power, but their site gives the same rating as you mentioned?


----------



## zilch0md

:blink:


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> They made the right decision. lol. I can't get over that picture. Where did you find it?


 
 Google images is my friend. Apparently there are quite a few folks of questionable sanity who think nautical guinea pigs are an artsy theme. It's sort of like dogs playing poker or Elvis on a black satin canvas. Anywho, I had quite a number of alluring images to choose from.  If I had any photoshop skills to speak of, I would have put "SS Gustard" on the hat or on the ship's rail.


----------



## stuartmc

arnotts said:


> I got a pair of LCD-X's a couple of days ago, as well. Running them from the H10 + M-Stage DAC right now and they sound fantastic. Still waiting on the X12 (Pollychen seems to have had issues with shipping, so he only just sent it out properly 2 weeks after paying).


 
 I would guess the delay in shipping was due to the Chinese New Year. I was warned that things come pretty much to a screeching halt for the run up to the Chinese New Year.  
 Sounds like you're having a boatload of Audeze fun. You really should give us a head to head of the M-Stage and the X12 once it arrives.


----------



## stuartmc

ARRRR!  As promised Swabbies, It's time for some hard core Gustard rfi/emi tweaking!  I, your stalwart captain guinea pig, have done the heavy lifting--


and will now share my results with my beloved and oh so motley crew. This is some high tech stuff, so read no further if you fear being transformed from mere swabbie piggies into frickin' galactic space pirate pigs!



The 3M AB-5100S is a 1mm thick adhesive backed emi absorber that soaks up stray emi in the 50 MHz -10GHz range. This seems to be the critical range for the garbage produced by digital IC's, power supplies and other lovelies inhabiting much of our Gustard gear.  The material can be cut into any size piece and stuck onto an IC, or bent and folded to produce a complete emi enclosure around IEC sockets power supplies and the various inputs and outputs. 


EMI and RFI can of course arise externally and enter the system through power cords and interconnects. I have gone to great lengths to reduce this by power filtering, well shielded cables and a few additional devices like Yamamura sleeves, Highwire Audio Power Wraps and Shakti Stones. In this case, I am attempting to ameliorate emi/rfi that is internally generated.  The idea is to suppress and absorb as much stray emi as possible, so that everything down stream -your dac and your amplifier -don't have to deal with it.  How much this emi hash effects the ultimate sound you get from your headphones and the exact means/process that produces this effect is of course subject to debate, so as usual, this is limited to my own personal experience.  

In the case of the U12, I tried to cover all the IC's as well as the IEC socket and the I2S output.  Special attention was paid to the clock crystals, as they reputedly produce the most emi. The adhesive is non-conductive, but if you cut the sheet, you need to be mindful that the exposed edge without adhesive _is_ conductive. For this reason, I did not cover the legs of the IC's and attach the stuff right to the board.  I could possibly cross a trace on the board and short something out, so better safe then sorry.  Internally generated emi will reflect off of metal surfaces inside the case and ping pong back and forth until it dies out. This is particularly true with parallel surfaces, so it has been suggested by some that at least one major cabinet surface should be covered.  The theory being, If you can't catch it all at the board surface (and you can't), you will reduce the intensity of the stray emi by covering at least one major reflective surface. 




This is a shot of the U12 as it comes from the factory and the second shot is the case lid with a piece of the 5100S adhered.


When you cut up the 3M sheet you are going to end up with some small, odd shaped scraps, so I decided to use them on top of the capacitors.  My experience with equipment feet and damping materials leads me to believe that changes in micro-vibrations and the resonance frequency of PCB's and components mounted thereon can ultimately effect the sound produced.  The way I see it, in addition to the emi absorption, the 5100S material will have some significant damping effect because of its mass and the properties of the adhesive. So, you might as well use up the extra pieces by applying them where additional damping might help.



In this picture, you can see where I built protective huts around IEC and USB inputs and also around the I2S output. I also completely enclosed the clock crystals with thin strips on all four sides and I added a second top piece for extra measure. I pressed the stuff down pretty firmly on the tops of the IC's to get good adhesion.  (More on this guerrilla pressing on the IC's in a moment).




Here we have the X12, before and after.  I followed the same general guidelines as for the U12, being careful to shield the IEC input socket, the I2S input and cover every visible IC, including a complete hut over the clock crystal. In this case, I decided to enclose the entire power supply area, including the two transformers and the RE36 capacitors.  My reasoning for this was simple - the designer attempted to physically separate the power supply section as much as possible because they no doubt paid attention to ESS's design notes, which says isolation and regulation of the power supply is critical for the Sabre chip. That being the case, I thought a 5100S enclosure would certainly enhance this isolation in terms of emi leakage.

I buttoned the guys up and let them warm up for about 45 minutes, fired up Tidal on the tablet with a familiar tune, anxiously slipped on the HE-560's and sat back for some frickin' galactic space pirate pig awesomeness!  Was I surprised, flummoxed, or amused?.......
All of the above!  This sounded WAY different. I am an admitted soundstage/imaging freak and this was like 3D technicolor compared to 2D black and white. I was playing very familiar tracks from Holly Cole's "Temptation" and things were popping out all over the place with great resolution, significantly more lateral separation, but surprisingly, somewhat less depth delineation.  Holly's vocal was moved closer, more intimate, and there was a slight edge or hardness to her voice.  That slight hardness carried over to everything I listened to for the next hour. There wasn't any appreciable change in tonality from before the 5100S treatment, just this somewhat annoying hardness and grain in the upper mids/low treble. So I was thinking, hmmm....Im really liking the enhanced resolution and soundstage effects,but I don't know if I can live with this little bit of hardness--which is why I was flummoxed-it truly was a mixed bag.

So, you remember when I mentioned above about adhering the 5100S to the IC's with my guerrilla, nay, galactic pig powers?  I got to thinking about that and I had an epiphany of sorts - not exactly a eureka moment, but close. Could pressing on the IC's and pcb have caused some micro fractures to the structure of the legs and/or solder connections?  If it had, then I was probably going to experience/hear something very similar to initial break- in. Hmmmm.....come to think of it, this slight hardness and modestly reduced depth delineation was almost exactly like what I hear in the first hours of break-in.  Honestly, its also some of what I hear when the Gustard gear isn't fully warmed up too.  So I encouraged myself, stepped away from the rig and kept the music playing for about 15 hours. When I returned and listened again to Holly Cole, the hardness and flatness was completely gone!   I was super happy to say the least.  The 5100S mods have no down side in my system - no mixed bag after all, it's all pluses.  

Initial impressions are always the strongest and tend to be, in my case, slightly exaggerated over the long term impressions. After listening intently for several days now, I can still say that the soundstaging/imaging is noticeably enhanced with this treatment as is the treble and upper midrange resolution. That is speaking more or less strictly of clarity, because the tonal balance is relatively unaffected.

At only $46 dollars a sheet from the Ebay guy, this mod/tweak gets an A rating from me.  I have already ordered another sheet to give the H10 some 5100S love. I'm even going to try it on the back of my tablet where I connect my usb cable.  

Cheers Swabbies,

Capt. Stu


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> ARRRR!




LOL

You guys have some swag!


----------



## swannie007

What a grand looking crew! Ready to take on the gremlins and ghosts of the audio oceans.


----------



## zilch0md

Meanwhile...
  
@stuartmc  I've read your report, above, and I have to say I'm very impressed by your energy and enthusiasm, but also by your credibility in reporting mixed results - both the good and the bad. The longer I'm at this, the less sure I am of my ability to report fact from fiction, as I've learned to doubt what I hear more than trust what I hear, but you really do strike me as truly having the ability to discern what you hear, accurately, and there's nothing like a little bit of humility, expressed in the form of a downside observation, to engender my trust in someone else's findings.  (Shhhh, don't tell anyone I said that.)
  
 Theoretically speaking, not having tried it myself, plastering everything with an EMI/RFI barrier material makes sense - that it could only do more good than bad. It is, after all, an inert shield. For lack of the aforementioned energy and enthusiasm, I would probably have stopped at lining the case with the material, without putting "tinfoil hats" on any individual components - other than perhaps the tent you built around the transformers (and OK, maybe those clock oscillators, too). Then again, the magnetic fields formed around those transformer coils might require some "breathing room."  The shields could be irreparably warping the electromagnetic continuum, Captain! But I don't understand the physics of each component well enough to predict the effect of shielding with any accuracy, obviously.
  
 I like your conjecture that you might just be hearing the DAC more accurately than before, because, only guessing, I still have to go with the belief that, overall, your shielding experiment is removing artificial stuff from the signal, not adding anything.
  
 In any case, thanks for trailblazing such a unique exercise. I've never seen anything like it.  
  





  
 Mike


----------



## stuartmc

Thanks for the kind words Mike. This is fun stuff for me and it's made even more fun when I can share it with like-minded friends.

I'm definitely a tweak-a-holic. Everything I own gets fiddled with - cars, bikes, phones, the works. I find it to be particularly gratifying with audio gear. I think we're all frustrated musicians and we want to be part of the musical process in some way. By altering the sound, whether it be by cables, tube rolling, or any other hands on tweaks, we connect with the music on a much deeper level. We might not be the musician or conductor, but in a real, tangible way, we are like the studio engineer sitting at the mixing board getting the sound "just right." My late friend Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenburg used to speak of this as a deep, primitive connection that is hardwired into all of us. Harvey called it "tuning your bow." His take was focused on the gear itself, rather than the music, speaking of being connected to it with the hands on tweaking and transforming the gear into a totem. Either way you look at it, the experience is elevated when you mix the sound, or tune your bow.


----------



## zilch0md

Oh gee! Those words have just reignited contemplations I keep putting on the back burner - that of researching and buying a "good" hardware parametric EQ.
  


Spoiler: Off-topic daydreaming...



I'm thinking of trying something like this:
  
  
*Two of these ($299) Joe Meek meQ 500 four-band parametric EQs...*
  




  
 http://www.joemeek.com/meq.html  
  
 UPDATE:  I just found these for *$199* at http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/922818-REG/joemeek_meq500_meequalizer.html
  
  
  
*Mounted in a ($325) A-Designs 500HR two-slot rack:*
  




 http://www.zenproaudio.com/a-designs-500-hr-rack
  
 Take it away for $925 $725 total - fits within my self-imposed limit of $1000 per component.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  
 Mike


----------



## zilch0md

More off-topic daydreaming... 

Check out this Class A, stereo, 4-band parametric EQ - The Elysia xfilter 500 - watch and listen to the video demonstration:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/xfilter500


----------



## stuartmc

Equalizers have always fascinated me, but right or wrong, I've never thought of them as a transparent solution. I just can't wrap my head around adding all that circuitry into the signal path. Admittedly, I have little actual experience with them.


----------



## JackarlTwo

I was pretty much set on either buying the Violectric V200 or the Burson Soloist to pair with Fostex TH900, but then I saw this thread. Really close to pull the trigger because of the price, but has anyone heard this amp with Fostex TH900?


----------



## Schopenhauer

jackarltwo said:


> I was pretty much set on either buying the Violectric V200 or the Burson Soloist to pair with Fostex TH900, but then I saw this thread. Really close to pull the trigger because of the price, but has anyone heard this amp with Fostex TH900?


 
 I could be full **** since I haven't heard the combination, but armchairing it I'd say that with the H10 you probably wouldn't have to worry about the treble etch that can sometimes afflict the TH900. The overall smooth signature of the H10 should be good for the TH900. It's certainly great for the Alpha Dog and HD800 (although I think you can do better for the HD800 than the H10).


----------



## auvgeek

Should get my amp tomorrow; I'm super excited. If I want to burn it in ASAP, how much is reasonable to run it per day? Someone earlier posted they did 4 hrs a day for like 4 months. Is that the preferred method, or can I just start pumping pink noise/music through it for 24 hrs a day until it reaches ~100 hrs? Or would leaving it running for so long potentially mess up the electronics? Sorry for all the basic questions, but everyone in this thread has been very helpful.


----------



## stuartmc

You can't hurt the H10 with burn in. You can run it 48 hours straight if you want to. I do think some brief turn off/on cycles are helpful in forming the capacitors and completing the burn in process, so let it rest for several one hour intervals during the first 48 to 72 hours. None of this is critical. You will end up at the same place in about 100 hours regardless of your regimen.


----------



## Schopenhauer

auvgeek said:


> Should get my amp tomorrow; I'm super excited. If I want to burn it in ASAP, how much is reasonable to run it per day? Someone earlier posted they did 4 hrs a day for like 4 months. Is that the preferred method, or can I just start pumping pink noise/music through it for 24 hrs a day until it reaches ~100 hrs? Or would leaving it running for so long potentially mess up the electronics? Sorry for all the basic questions, but everyone in this thread has been very helpful.


 
 I listened to mine from the beginning and wept tears of joy. I exaggerate. But I did listen to it straight out da box; I like knowing an amp from the zero point (assuming the manufacturer doesn't burn it in). I should point out that I'm not a big believer in objective SS burn-in, although I have no good reason for that belief.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> You can't hurt the H10 with burn in. You can run it 48 hours straight if you want to. I do think some brief turn off/on cycles are helpful in forming the capacitors and completing the burn in process, so let it rest for several one hour intervals during the first 48 to 72 hours. None of this is critical. You will end up at the same place in about 100 hours regardless of your regimen.


 
 I'd listen to Stu. He knows his ****.


----------



## auvgeek

stuartmc said:


> You can't hurt the H10 with burn in. You can run it 48 hours straight if you want to. I do think some brief turn off/on cycles are helpful in forming the capacitors and completing the burn in process, so let it rest for several one hour intervals during the first 48 to 72 hours. None of this is critical. You will end up at the same place in about 100 hours regardless of your regimen.


 
 Perfect. Thanks for the response. I'll do just that.


schopenhauer said:


> I listened to mine from the beginning and wept tears of joy. I exaggerate. But I did listen to it straight out da box; I like knowing an amp from the zero point (assuming the manufacturer doesn't burn it in). I should point out that I'm not a big believer in objective SS burn-in, although I have no good reason for that belief.


 
 I'm not a huge believer in SS burn-in either—"brain burn-in" and just plain placebo seem just as likely to me, but I'm far from an expert. Regardless, I'll listen to it right out of the box and we'll see if I can tell a difference. 
  
 Thanks again for such helpful, quick responses!


----------



## Greggo

I know of no other component (at least that I have heard) that makes the case for burn in better than the H10.  I don't think it is brain burn in when you listen for a few minutes and then walk away for 2-12 hours with music still playing or at least just leaving the amp on, and then come back and listen for a few minutes again, etc... I had mine running at least 8 hours a day and sometimes left on for 48 hours at a time with at least half of that playing music and the other half with the volume turned down to zero and no music source in play.  The first 3 or 4 days were crazy obvious IMHO in terms of evolving sound signature.


----------



## lukeap69

I think I've mentionedin my previous post that the the dramatic improvement I've heard is after 20 hours. The H10 kept on improving after that but it was subtle. Again, this may all be brain burn in or psychoacoustic effect as our Capt Stuart would probably put it.


----------



## stuartmc

Right you are'mates. The change in sound signature is undeniable in the first 20 to 40 hours. It is much more subtle after that and as Luke says, perhaps some psychoacoustic phenomena is involved at that point. Somewhere in those early hours, our sweet little H10 does a veritable Jekyl and Hyde transformation. I must be hyper sensitive to this stuff because I can't enjoy listening with much less than an hour warm up time too.


----------



## Schopenhauer

I second warm up time. Especially when dealing with valves. But I'm with Stu on warming up the H10 before any serious and/or enjoyable listening. 
  
 Also, I think psychoacoustics is key. We have to _learn _how to listen to our gear.


----------



## Arnotts

I agree, I think my music sounds better after it's been playing for a while. I think the warm-up results in a sonic improvement, as strange as it sounds! Energy and dynamics become better - even at the same volume levels.
  
 Quote:


stuartmc said:


> I would guess the delay in shipping was due to the Chinese New Year. I was warned that things come pretty much to a screeching halt for the run up to the Chinese New Year.
> *Sounds like you're having a boatload of Audeze fun.* You really should give us a head to head of the M-Stage and the X12 once it arrives.


 
  
 For sure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Even though I've got the LCD-X's - which are incredible -  I'm giving the LCD-2's a lot of head-time. I want to get to know each pair properly before forming proper conclusions. The pairing between the LCD-2F's and the H10 is excellent so far, though. It really draws me into the music; the sound is just so intimate and smooth. It generally becomes more about listening to the music than analyzing it so much.
  
 The 2F + H10 combo, while providing truly high-fidelity sound, is also forgiving enough to not draw much attention to faults in recordings. The sound is just overall so smooth and "flowing" that music sounds so much NICER and enjoyable! It's such an incredible balance between being resolving/detailed and making listening to music enjoyable.
  
 Bass is also full, natural and textured. The bass has good punch and extension. Vocals are incredibly smooth and sound like they're being projected from right in front of you. The soundstage isn't as wide as a lot of other open-backs, but the headphone makes up for it with its imaging capability - the sound is so intimate, while still having good space between each element, which are placed very specifically around your head.
  
 If I had to live with one pair of headphones from now on, I would still be incredibly happy with LCD-2F's.
  
 Now time to give more head-time to the LCD-X's again


----------



## LancerFIN

Has anybody listened LCD2.2 out of NFB-15 and H10? How do they compare? Out of NFB-15 LCD2.2 sound warm but not very dark. A lot of bass is missing. Listened LCD2.2 out of MuFi M1HPAp when I bought these and really wanting that oomph in the bass which I'm not getting with NFB-15.
  
 edit: Just found out mine actually has Fazors.


----------



## zilch0md

arnotts said:


> For sure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm enjoying your commentary, Arnotts.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've got the LCD-2 rev.1 and have been twisting in the wind about trying the LCD-X.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Everything will burn in n burn out......question is....the time span.


----------



## lukeap69

I have been thinking why the soundstage of Oppo PM-2 seems bigger and better with H10. It's probably the imaging as what Arnotts said (or implied). This is another good traits of the H10. Though PM-2's sounstage is so so, H10 gives it a different dimension. Kudos!


----------



## Arnotts

zilch0md said:


> I'm enjoying your commentary, Arnotts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think the 2F's and the X's are quite complementary, but I'd imagine the 2.1's and the X's to be even more so.
  
 The LCD-X's have some pretty immediate differences compared to the 2F's. These differences are probably a little bit more significant compared to the LCD-2 rev. 1's. There's a little bit more treble presence/extension. The sound feels airier, with more space and instrument separation. The soundstage feels a little bit more holographic, like it projects sound around your head in a wider room. Imaging is improved even further.
  
 Vocals are not quite as smooth or intimate - they don't take center stage unless the recording is specifically made in that way. The frequency ranges seem a little bit more in line with each other. Bass has a little bit more extension, presence and slam compared to my 2F's. It's easier to pick apart elements in the music as it sounds more spread out and separated - even more like a high end speaker setup projecting sound towards you in a room.
  
 I don't want to say that the X's sound more analytical than the 2F's just yet, but music that has less emphasis on vocals and more on other instruments/sounds REALLY shine with the X's. Electronic music (particularly by the producers that actually use LCD-X's for making their music) is reproduced on a whole new level.
  
 I've never heard the HD800's or T1's, but I imagine the LCD-X sound signature is kind of what you would get if you took the Audeze house sound and mixed it a little with the Senn's/Beyer's.
  
 But having said all this, I still need to get more head-time with both headphones before really coming to solid conclusions.
  
 Also, just to keep things truly on-topic, the H10 pairs nicely with the X's. I listened to them off the Xonar Essence STX as well, and they sound surprisingly good - imaging and separation is all excellent. The STX doesn't have full control of the bass, though. Sub bass isn't as strong, it sounds too dispersed/loose. Not as tight as it should be to be audible enough in the mix. The H10 has excellent bass control with the X's - good extension and tightness.
  
  


lukeap69 said:


> I have been thinking why the soundstage of Oppo PM-2 seems bigger and better with H10. It's probably the imaging as what Arnotts said (or implied). This is another good traits of the H10. Though PM-2's sounstage is so so, H10 gives it a different dimension. Kudos!


 
 Damn you've got some nice variety in your equipment, man! I'm pleasantly surprised that you still give the H10 some usage even with your Ragnarok around 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think the H10 seems to have this quality that just makes music sound so much more enjoyable. The combination of how smooth it is, how full the bass is and also seemingly how well it images!
  
 After I post some more impressions of the Gustard combos with the Audeze headphones I'm going to try and disappear. I should be totally happy with all this gear and I don't need to get sucked into buying more anytime soon


----------



## lukeap69

The Ragnarok is used mainly for my HD800 and to some extent the AKG Q701. The Oppo PM-2 doesn't seem to benefit much so I am pairing it with the H10 with Theorem 720 as DAC whilst sitting on my favourite single seater sofa and just enjoy the music and not reading head-fi! 

H10 is an excellent amp. It is one of my best audio related purchases thus far!


----------



## Lohb

arnotts said:


> For sure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Excellent to hear about LCD-2 pairing nicely with this H10 amp, and I'm sure based on owning the Bushmaster Mk2 DAC that the new Caiman Mk2 will be the icing on the cake for LCD2/H10 combo.
 These DAC's really don't hold anything back in the low-end by all accounts.


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks Arnotts,

I find this to be very appealing:



> I've never heard the HD800's or T1's, but I imagine the LCD-X sound signature is kind of what you would get if you took the Audeze house sound and mixed it a little with the Senn's/Beyer's.




Mike


----------



## LancerFIN

Ordering mine. I actually feel a lot more secure with this purchase than with NFB-15. As that is usually people's first amp. So that thread is just people with their first amps talking about it. But here people seem to have a lot of other high end gear to compare.
  
 Let's see how NFB-15 -> H10 -> LCD2.2F chain will play out. I don't even have the H10 yet and I'm drooling over X12. But not likely going to spend that much of money on DAC. Unless someone ends up selling theirs for fair price.


----------



## lukeap69

Nice choice but never say never.


----------



## bryan lubeck

Thanks for the call out - I created the CD "Tuscan Sky" especially for the audiofile - someone that wanted crystal clear definition at any volume.   I dare you to find the seams   
  
 Have a great day!


----------



## auvgeek

Annoyingly, the H10 was delivered on Friday evening, but I wasn't able to actually get it until this afternoon (long story). So I"m posting my first impressions now.
  
 The H10 + LCD-2F sounds pretty awesome right out of the box (but warmed up). I have a stock HE-500 on my head right now, and preliminary impressions are that it doesn't scale up quite as well as the LCD-2F. Before, when I was A/B-ing the two driven by the Compass' integrated amp, there were definite times when I preferred the HE-500. But out of the H10, I think I prefer the LCD-2F everywhere. The instrument separation, detail, and bass extension on the LCDs seems truly astounding. Out of the Compass, the vocals on the 2F seem forward, almost to the detriment of hearing instruments (I mainly listen to indie/alternative rock). The soundstage of the LCD seems to have gotten larger with the H10, too. Or maybe I'm just going crazy.
  
 I also have HE-560s on their way, too. It'll be shootout, as I can only keep one pair.
  
 Obviously, I'll have to do some blind A-B testing this weekend. I'll also have to listen to the H10 for a while and then take it back to the Compass to see what happens. But right now, I'm very, very happy.
  
 Note: heavily edited this post for clarity.


----------



## lugnut

bryan lubeck said:


> Thanks for the call out - I created the CD "Tuscan Sky" especially for the audiofile - someone that wanted crystal clear definition at any volume.   I dare you to find the seams
> 
> Have a great day!


 
 Hello Bryan, enjoy your work ! Would you mind stating what kind of equipment you use, just curious ?


----------



## bryan lubeck

For tuscan sky it was done through a sony analog board and mixed using some pretty high end stuff by Marc Nelson (protege of Bill Schnee....it was then mastered by the gentleman that did the beatles mp3 mastering for itunes and many of the other important works being remastered ...its pretty stellar.
  
 Sorry I don't do the engineering so don't know all the names of the equipment   http://www.marcdanielnelson.com/  go to that website it will show just behind the dog in the picture the recording equipment...the board isn't there it was a big sony analogue vintage board.
  
 I like the vintage stuff...in fact my first instrumental album Acoustic Vineyard was recorded using Sly Stones original vintage - Daniel N Flickinger MOD N32 Matrix Custom built for Sly Stone 32x32x4 Mixing Desk


----------



## auvgeek

Okay, one more stupid question: if I'm getting enough volume with no pre-gain, is there any reason to go higher (when using LCD-2F and HE-500)?


----------



## zilch0md

^ Only if you can hear improved dynamics or bass control at a higher gain - without raising the noise floor.


----------



## auvgeek

^^ Thanks! I think I might prefer 0 dB gain, but I'll have to do more testing.
  
 I have to reiterate that this amp sounds very, very good. I'm trying to type up a problem set in LaTex, and I keep stopping to just listen!


----------



## stuartmc

With respect to gain, I have always heard that volume potentiometers perform best and are most left/right balanced around the middle of their range. If I don't hear any sonic changes other than gain, then I will use the pre-gain setting that puts the volume pot closest to the middle at my preferred listening level. With the Hifiman HE-560, that happens to be +6 for me.


----------



## auvgeek

stuartmc said:


> With respect to gain, I have always heard that volume potentiometers perform best and are most left/right balanced around the middle of their range. If I don't hear any sonic changes other than gain, then I will use the pre-gain setting that puts the volume pot closest to the middle at my preferred listening level. With the Hifiman HE-560, that happens to be +6 for me.


 

 That's kind of what I intuitively believed—it just seems like there would be less distortion away from the limits of their range.
  
 Another dumb question: when it comes to the volume control on your music player/source (Spotify, Tidal, etc), do you max it out or keep it in the middle?


----------



## LancerFIN

auvgeek said:


> That's kind of what I intuitively believed—it just seems like there would be less distortion away from the limits of their range.
> 
> Another dumb question: when it comes to the volume control on your music player/source (Spotify, Tidal, etc), do you max it out or keep it in the middle?


 

 Max everything out and control volume with amplifier.
  
 If you have low volume in windows and add volume in amplifier you'll eventually hear noise floor. Also if windows for some reason decides to screw up and turn the volume to 100 your ears wont be happy. Happens when switching between speakers and headphones


----------



## stuartmc

auvgeek said:


> That's kind of what I intuitively believed—it just seems like there would be less distortion away from the limits of their range.
> 
> Another dumb question: when it comes to the volume control on your music player/source (Spotify, Tidal, etc), do you max it out or keep it in the middle?




I run Tidal through a tablet straight into the U12 with no intervening software. I max it out from the tablet to keep the noise floor as low as possible.


----------



## Arnotts

X12 arrived .
  
 I tried connecting the DAC to the amp using balanced XLR cables first, but it didn't work (I forgot to move the dip switches on the back to balanced 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 Went with RCA cables next. Sound came through okay, but it didn't sound instantly noticeably better than the M-Stage DAC. Maybe bass texture was a bit improved. Volume decreased a bit, though, at the same level on the H10, compared to the M-Stage DAC.
  
 Searched this thread for how to get the balanced connections working, then saw the info about the dip switches. Re-connected the XLR cables and got it working.
  
 Volume increased a bit, so I turned it down. Put the LCD-X's on and felt that dynamics had instantly improved. Billie Jean by Michael Jackson had me instantly getting into the music - DAMN those drums kicked hard .
  
 I'm pretty happy so far and I've only been listening for about 10 minutes! Time to let everything (even if it's just my brain) burn in.
  
 Edit: I should probably post some of this stuff in the combined Gustard thread


----------



## LancerFIN

arnotts said:


> X12 arrived .
> 
> I tried connecting the DAC to the amp using balanced XLR cables first, but it didn't work (I forgot to move the dip switches on the back to balanced
> 
> ...


 

 Nice. Hopefully the sound will improve after burn in.
  
 My H10 arrived to Finland last night. Now how long will it take for DHL to bring it to my door... And where are my rca interconnects. Would be a bummer to get the H10 but no cables to connect it with.


----------



## Schopenhauer

I'm thinking there won't be an easy way of comparing the H10 and Dragon IHA-1. I find these to be two very different amps. However, I'm finding it difficult to articulate what the differences are. I find the IHA-1 hands down more listenable(I think). But that wouldn't be surprising really from a $1600 tube amp. 
  
 I would hesitate to say the IHA-1 is more musical than the H10. That's because - and I hate to use such a mongrel concept - the H10 has such strong PRaT. I see an increase in PRaT as roughly inversely related to the quality of lushness. The problem is that _some music is lush_.


----------



## FlySweep

I miss my H10. 

:'(


----------



## LancerFIN

flysweep said:


> I miss my H10.
> 
> :'(


 

 Why did you sell it?


----------



## FlySweep

To help fund a totl HD800/rig.. which is still in progress (but I'm closer). 

What I miss most about the h10 was the synergy with the he-560 and the hd650. There's not many solid state amps I liked with the hd650.. the h10 was my favorite, to date.


----------



## Schopenhauer

flysweep said:


> To help fund a totl HD800/rig.. which is still in progress (but I'm closer).
> 
> What I miss most about the h10 was the synergy with the he-560 and the hd650. There's not many solid state amps I liked with the hd650.. the h10 was my favorite, to date.


 
 Sweet! What rig?


----------



## FlySweep

schopenhauer said:


> Sweet! What rig?




BH Mainline, DNA Sonnett, ECP Black Diamond are at the top of my list.. but I'm tempted to chase down an R2R DAC.. mmm


----------



## lukeap69

flysweep said:


> BH Mainline, DNA Sonnett, ECP Black Diamond are at the top of my list.. but I'm tempted to chase down an R2R DAC.. mmm


 
 Sweet! I will (may) have a change to listen tomorrow with BH Mainline with my HD800, I'll let you know how it compares with my Rag. The Black Diamond is also apparently very good with the HD800 - there is a review of Ragnarok on head-fi where the Black Diamond, GS-X and Rag were compared.
  
 I am also thinking about R2R DACs. I may save up for an Yggy to mate with Rag... but that won't be immediate - my NFB-1 still put smile on my face everytime I use it though not so much with songs with a hint of sibilance e.g. Silent Lucidity by Queensryche. 
  
 Happy TOTL rig hunting!


----------



## swannie007

So, finally got home from working away from home for three weeks and had a stack of packages to open! E bay loves me, as do the local postie and the local delivery services! This is my reward for working in the bush for weeks at a time. Anyhoo, one of my packages contained my balanced cables for my HE400i's to use with the U12, X10, H10 stack and I must say that it is just beautiful!! I can't pull myself away to do anything. I just want to listen to music all the time. There seems to be better separation of instruments and a "cleaner window" into the music, more depth to the soundstage, it just sounds more "real", as though you are there in the room listening to the musicians with a very real sense of space. It may just be a placebo effect because I was away from the gear for three weeks or that I fitted the balanced cables but I don't care, I'm loving it! Besides, it's all about the music and if these small additions to my system help me enjoy it more, then that's just fine by me.
 So, greetings to all my shipmates and here's hoping you all have a good listening weekend. Cheers.


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> I run Tidal through a tablet straight into the U12 with no intervening software. I max it out from the tablet to keep the noise floor as low as possible.


 
  
 And the bit depth as high as possible...


----------



## zilch0md

Hey FlySweep!
  
 Quote:


flysweep said:


> BH Mainline, DNA Sonnett, ECP Black Diamond are at the top of my list..* but I'm tempted to chase down an R2R DAC.*. mmm



  
 Going off-topic further still...
  
 NOS DACs are magical with the HD800. I know you are a big fan of the HD650 sound and I would still have mine but for having an LCD-2 rev.1 and HD800.  (I just couldn't justify keeping the HD650, but regret selling it, just the same.)
  
 In my experience at least, the HD800 cannot be made to emulate the most attractive traits of the HD650 - no matter your choice of upstream gear - without degrading some of the HD800's most attractive traits. The HD800 will always sound like an HD800, to some degree, as long as you protect the traits which distinguish it from other headphones.  
  
 My Metrum Octave MkII NOS DAC has had a much greater impact on my overall success with the HD800 than any changes in gear, including amps. So I vigorously commend your plan to avoid oversampling DACs with the HD800.
  
  



Spoiler: Off-topic NOS DAC suggestion



I always respect the privacy of  PMs, so I'll leave it to him to identify himself, if he wishes, but there's a Head-Fi member who has owned the Metrum Quad and the Metrum Hex (which straddle the Metrum Octave MkII in price and performance), but he has settled on using this $250 battery-powered 96 kHz NOS DAC almost exclusively.
  
  
*The Battery DAC™*  

  

  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Non-Oversampling-NOS-DAC-TDA1543-DIR9001-SPDIF-Coax-Optical-dual-9V-NiMH-w-charg-/201003880227
  
 From bottom-left to top-left, the jacks are for Optical Input, Coaxial Input, Analog Line Level Left and Right Output, 12V DC input.  The batteries can be charged while it's in use (but why?) 
  
 The specs include this line:  
  

No Op-Amp - direct output with 2Vpp (will drive any power amp well)
  
 That means the V rms is something less than 2V (probably about 1.5V rms)
  
 The designer/seller, "leopardo42," is apparently the salt of the earth. Reading reviews and threads a while back (not just his eBay page), it seems everybody is happy with his service and his product.  I'm thinking of giving it a try, but haven't done so yet.  
  
 One side of me would be thrilled to discover that I could replace my Metrum Octave MkII with this much more affordable DAC, while another, far less practical side of me would hate to break apart the Metrum stack (keeping only the Aurix amp).


  
 Mike


----------



## lukeap69

Okay Mike. You started this - now it's truly your turn to be a guinea pig.  Perhaps there is a chance my opinion with HD800 and H10 pairing will change... My H10 will be waiting for your impressions...


----------



## zilch0md

@lukeap69 
  
 Haha!  
  
 I really do want to hear the Battery DAC, so...  I've just now ordered it.  
  


> Estimated delivery between *Friday, Feb. 27 and Monday, Mar. 9*


 
  
 I was all strapped into the bungee rig and you pushed me off the bridge.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have such a soft spot for battery-operated gear and this thing is so much smaller than the likes of a Beresford Bushmaster MkII - the 12V-powered oversampling DAC I had for a long while.
  
 I might end up using it "portably" too - it could be just the ticket for allowing me to go "portable" with the iBasso PB2 balanced out to the HD800, which is only barely tolerable using my best oversampling DAC (either portable or desktop) - the PCM1592A Line Out of my FiiO X5 DAP (which also offers Coaxial Out).
  
 Joy!
  
 Mike


----------



## Kyno

I'm letting go mine (http://www.head-fi.org/t/755814/gustard-h10) to fund a Crack I've been eyeing for months since it's now available to buy it here locally. Got to try it the HD650 and T1.
  
 I guess I don't need to praise the H10 (especially with orthos like my HE-560), they're already 53 pages of it


----------



## LancerFIN

kyno said:


> I'm letting go mine (http://www.head-fi.org/t/755814/gustard-h10) to fund a Crack I've been eyeing for months since it's now available to buy it here locally. Got to try it the HD650 and T1.
> 
> I guess I don't need to praise the H10 (especially with orthos like my HE-560), they're already 53 pages of it


 

 You are couple days too late... damn it.


----------



## lukeap69

zilch0md said:


> @lukeap69
> 
> Haha!
> 
> ...


 
 I knew you needed a little push... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As they say, smileys speak louder than words. So,


----------



## Kyno

lancerfin said:


> You are couple days too late... damn it.


 
  
 Sorry about that, I guess some things aren't meant to be


----------



## stuartmc

Let's take another techno-tweakazoid spin off of the good ship Gustard.   ARRR indeed mateys




Yes, that is an armored Guinea Pig, riding a suped-up rocket jet ski and smoking while brandishing his piece. So very apropos, wouldn't you say?!

I was so pleased with the results of the 3M AB5100S on the U12 and X12, that I ordered another sheet for the H10.  The order of effects suggested that the greatest benefits would be had with my digital gear, so my progression was planned to be U12>X12>H10.  If I didn't like what I was hearing, or couldn't hear any change at all, I would stop the madness at the earliest stage.  From my last report, you know that I was very happy with the resolution, soundstage and imaging improvements to both the U12 and X12.  I figured taking another shot with the H10 was well worth the $46 expenditure.






Here we have the H10 before and afters.  I covered the IEC power input and completely shrouded the transformers.  Then I gave the capacitors a top hat, enclosed the potentiometer, covered all IC's and shielded the XLR inputs ( I only use XLR).  I even enclosed the headphone jack sleeve with its three metal tabs. I didn't expect this application to be as audible as the digital devices. AB5100S is an "absorber" rather than a true "shield," so it stands to reason that the most effective applications will be on devices and electrical components that create and throw off the most emi and rfi.  I figured that there still would be a benefit from absorbing stray crud that made its way into the H10 through the power cord and XLR cables and also the emi produced by the transformers, voltage regulators and caps. When you already have the lid off and you have a whole sheet of the stuff to use, you end up saying to yourself, "what the heck, lets get crazy!"
The nice thing I have learned about the AB5100S product is that it doesn't seem to have a down side wherever you happen to put it.  It doesn't make the highs dull or suck the life out of the music, so I think you can play around with complete impunity. 

Let me digress for just a moment.  I have read some commentary involving other shielding products (most notably Stillpoints ERS cloth) that warned against the sonic perils of an over-application. They would say things about the sound becoming dull and lifeless, lacking in "air"....yada yada.  I would be willing to bet that these folks have not listened to systems that have very low emi and rfi distortions and are completely unfamiliar with how it sounds.  It can, at first, be a little disconcerting. I think we get so used to the low level "white noise" hanging around the noise floor, that we think that it is natural and ascribe to it certain beneficial attributes like "air" and "liveliness."  Not surprisingly, us older guys who cut our teeth on vinyl front ends often recognized this as the same kind of "air" we heard when playing a  good vinyl pressing on on well appointed VPI or Merrill tuntable.  There was loads of distortion produced from dragging a needle through a groove, but it was consonant distortion.  It was a form of low level white noise that seemed to fill up the space around things and gave a sense of the ambiance of the recording venue.  The first few times you hear music with that white noise absent, it sounds just a little surreal.  This has really come to the forefront in the digital age because other forms of distortion are now so vanishingly low that the effects of emi and rfi "hash" can now be clearly heard on a good system.  I had to come to grips with this phenomenon years ago when I auditioned and reviewed the Bel Canto Evo digital amplifiers with the Talon Khorus loudspeakers. Both of these products had ground breaking technology that produced music with extraordinarily low distortion.  It was really weird at first and I had to re-calibrate my listening  and even have some live music played in my listening room to make sure it wasn't self-delusion, a fluke or some parlor trick.  

So, getting back to the AB5100S applications, yes, you will hear less of the white noise hash and the noise floor will seem to be lowered.  Because there is less of that white noise haze filling up the spaces between things, I hear greater separation between images and the images themselves are more distinct, standing out against a blacker backdrop. There appears to be less smear - a sharper focus, that one could also describe as "greater resolution."   I have not found there to be any change in tonality....virtually all of the improvements wrought by the AB5100S treatment are in the realm of soundstage and imaging.  If you are following my reasoning and analogies, this really does make intuitive sense.  With the H10 treatment, I got more of the same. Perhaps not as great as what I heard with the X12, but still an audible, appreciable improvement in that soundstage/imaging mojo that is like Pignip to your humble Cap'n.

Seriously guys, for $46 a sheet, this is a no-brainer tweak. I can't be the only swabbie with a penchant for trimming the sails, so let's get cracking you scurvy pig-dogs!


----------



## swannie007

Aye, aye cap'n.
Love the attack guinea pig! Where do you find this stuff?


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Aye, aye cap'n.
> Love the attack guinea pig! Where do you find this stuff?




swannie me boy... I knew I could count on my bosun from the bush!!


----------



## Gibalok

Mine came today. Saying goodbye to matrix quattro amp
  
 .


----------



## stuartmc

Greetings and ahoy there Gibalok. I've never had the chance to listen to the Quattro. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how it compares to the H10.


----------



## mjock3

Well Stuart you got me, I ordered my H10 yesterday. Will see how it compares to an Audio-gd.
  
 Looking forward to hearing it.


----------



## stuartmc

mjock3 said:


> Well Stuart you got me, I ordered my H10 yesterday. Will see how it compares to an Audio-gd.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing it.




Welcome to our motley crew Mark! I should let our fellow Gustard swabbies know that you are the eBay guy I referenced in my earlier post on the 3M AB5100S sheets. Best price I could find anywhere for it


----------



## Schopenhauer

flysweep said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet! What rig?
> ...



R2R DACs have only recently come to my attention. What are some representative R2R DACs?


----------



## rawrster

flysweep said:


> To help fund a totl HD800/rig.. which is still in progress (but I'm closer).
> 
> What I miss most about the h10 was the synergy with the he-560 and the hd650. There's not many solid state amps I liked with the hd650.. the h10 was my favorite, to date.


 
  
 The HD800 is a good choice. iirc you liked the UERM and they are the closest thing I've found in a full sized. It's not quite the same of course but can't think of anything else that represents a more similar sound signature. I regret selling my HD800 setup (and my HE-6). I'll probably purchase a setup for one of those two again one day.. I probably don't need to buy a new dac so some cost is already saved 
  
 I've been tempted to purchase a H10 since it does seem like a good value where you get a good amp at a not so high price tag. I've always been a sucker for these good value buy purchases for some odd reason. Has anyone compared it to a Lyr or tried both?


----------



## Arnotts

rawrster said:


> The HD800 is a good choice. iirc you liked the UERM and they are the closest thing I've found in a full sized. It's not quite the same of course but can't think of anything else that represents a more similar sound signature. I regret selling my HD800 setup (and my HE-6). I'll probably purchase a setup for one of those two again one day.. I probably don't need to buy a new dac so some cost is already saved
> 
> I've been tempted to purchase a H10 since it does seem like a good value where you get a good amp at a not so high price tag. I've always been a sucker for these good value buy purchases for some odd reason. Has anyone compared it to a Lyr or tried both?


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/225#post_11122025


----------



## Lohb

Anyone going to opamp roll in some muse 02's etc ?
Chip Rolling Pairing
 Next stage after EMI shielding... 
  
 EDIT : Though you want to be wary of cheap Muse opamps not through official distributors.


----------



## daltonlanny

I ordered a Gustard H10 today off Ebay.
Looking forward to trying it out with my HifiMan cans.
Got the feeling that it will drive them better than my HeadAmp GS-1.


----------



## Arnotts

Imaging and bass extension have been improving with every listen. The X12 is sounding better and better every day! It hits very hard, has excellent extension, has a lot of detail, has good imaging and good instrument separation (so far). Listening to the LCD-X's with the H10 + X12 combo is an incredible experience.
  
 Listening to the track Ice Age (deadmau5 Remix) by How to Destroy Angels shows off the strengths of the combo really well. Deep bass, lovely vocals and so many elements and details throughout the soundstage.
  
 Quote:


daltonlanny said:


> I ordered a Gustard H10 today off Ebay.
> Looking forward to trying it out with my HifiMan cans.
> Got the feeling that it will drive them better than my HeadAmp GS-1.


 

 Sounds good .
  
 Which HifiMans are you going to be pairing the amp with?


----------



## daltonlanny

HE-560, HE-500, HE-6.


----------



## Arnotts

stuartmc said:


> Very early in my experience with the X12, I had identified a little hardness in the treble and a somewhat flattened soundstage. I'm happy to report that break in took care of all of that. Probably a little emi isolation helped too. It now is almost the antithesis of analytical. You hear all the detail and the low level ambient cues, but it is all quite relaxed and natural.
> 
> I too was worried about the alleged Sabre glare and had weighed getting a Wolfson DAC to compare to the Aune. My Rega Apollo R provided that comparison, so I was willing to roll the dice with the X12. In my system, the X12 is every bit as relaxed and musical as the Rega Wolfson or the Aune S16, but with better dynamics, greater frequency extension and finer resolution. That's a winner for me.


 
 I'm experiencing the exact same thing, with the X12 opening up as it gets used more.
  
 Imaging and soundstage initially sounded flat/congested/smeared relative to how it sounds now. The treble had this unnatural tone/harshness.
  
 Becoming more 3D/airy/separated and natural as time progresses. Bass extension sounds like it's improving as well.


----------



## stuartmc

arnotts said:


> I'm experiencing the exact same thing, with the X12 opening up as it gets used more.
> 
> Imaging and soundstage initially sounded flat/congested/smeared relative to how it sounds now. The treble had this unnatural tone/harshness.
> 
> Becoming more 3D/airy/separated and natural as time progresses. Bass extension sounds like it's improving as well.




Thanks for sharing your X12 experience. We needed a few more to establish a confident baseline on break in and overall sound. Are you running it with the sharp or slow filter?


----------



## Arnotts

stuartmc said:


> Thanks for sharing your X12 experience. We needed a few more to establish a confident baseline on break in and overall sound. Are you running it with the sharp or slow filter?


 

 Slow right now. I think it makes bass notes have a slightly longer decay, making drum hits sound a little bigger. It doesn't have any negative effect on details to my ears.
  
 Loving the synergy the combo has with the Audeze headphones. I haven't even listened to any of my other headphones since I've been using this setup.
  
 I haven't heard any other DAC/amp combos (for any extended period) around the $1000 mark , but I'm loving this one a lot


----------



## zilch0md

Hey Stuart,
  
 Quote:


stuartmc said:


> Let's take another techno-tweakazoid spin off of the good ship Gustard.   ARRR indeed mateys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Check out this Tyll Hertsens video where Jam Somasundram, an associate of Nelson Pass, is interviewed regarding their new headphone amp, which, in addition to having a low-feedback design (which I'm convinced is a must for the HD800, if not a zero-feedback design, like the Metrum Aurix), and all discrete components, *has a custom-wound power transformer that's shielded with MuMetal (for controlling magnetic fields, not EMF).*  See:  http://custommagneticshielding.magneticshield.com/category/mumetal-sheet-and-foil
  

  
 I also find it interesting that we have another high-end ($3000 ?) headphone amp that has unbalanced output, having abandoned balanced inputs in an earlier prototype.  (Lots of well-equipped head-philes are perfectly content with their expensive unbalanced amps.)
  
 Mike


----------



## stuartmc

That is sooo cool Mike!  I think I have mentioned before that I'm a big Nelson Pass fan and I have the Aleph mono blocks running a rig downstairs right now.   I should divulge that as of about two weeks now, I am back on board with positive-feedback.com as an associate editor. I continued to be listed as legal counsel on the masthead for the almost 15 years that I wasn't writing, but the editor in chief and my old friend and mentor, David Robinson, convinced me it was time to return.  Maybe I can get on the review list to give the Pass headphone amp a try.
  
 By the way, in my first new article with PF, David wants me to tell the story of my extended hiatus from high-end audio and what has brought me back. I will be sharing about the whacky-wonderful world of personal/headphone audio and the kindred spirits I have met here.  There most definitely WILL BE a mention of my swabbies aboard the SS Gustard, because you guys have done more to restore my joy in music and audio gear than anyone else.


----------



## zilch0md

Hey, congratulations Stuart!  
  
 You certainly have an energy and enthusiasm that comes across very contagiously in what you write, so I'm looking forward to your being exposed to a larger audience.  I read Positive Feedback even though I have an extremely modest HiFi system - it was modest when I bought it 30 years ago!  LOL  If I lived by myself, things would be different, but I like things just the way they are - I'll take the wife over the HiFi system any day (as long as I can pursue my Head-Fi gear!)
  
 Meanwhile, I think it's pretty cool that you've been shielding components in your Gustard gear, with Nelson Pass doing the same in his newest commercial amp.  Great minds think alike!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  
 Mike


----------



## lukeap69

Gratz Captain. Looking forward to reading your articles.


----------



## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> That is sooo cool Mike!  I think I have mentioned before that I'm a big Nelson Pass fan and I have the Aleph mono blocks running a rig downstairs right now.   I should divulge that as of about two weeks now, I am back on board with positive-feedback.com as an associate editor. I continued to be listed as legal counsel on the masthead for the almost 15 years that I wasn't writing, but the editor in chief and my old friend and mentor, David Robinson, convinced me it was time to return.  Maybe I can get on the review list to give the Pass headphone amp a try.
> 
> By the way, in my first new article with PF, David wants me to tell the story of my extended hiatus from high-end audio and what has brought me back. I will be sharing about the whacky-wonderful world of personal/headphone audio and the kindred spirits I have met here.  There most definitely WILL BE a mention of my swabbies aboard the SS Gustard, because you guys have done more to restore my joy in music and audio gear than anyone else.


 
 David Robinson the Admiral? - But congrats! This is good news for the hobby as a whole because you do solid work. SS Gustard for life! I can't wait to read it!


----------



## LancerFIN

Screw DHL Express. In a week my H10 got from Sweden to Germany. (Bought mine used from natra). How long will it take until it gets to Finland.. 2 weeks? Stuff comes from China faster than this..


----------



## Arnotts

@stuartmc
 Would you recommend getting the U12 even if I use the USB connection straight from my PC to the X12? Was there an appreciable difference to you?
  
 I'm also considering getting the AB5100S sheet - but actually opening up my units and modifying them would take a lot more consideration.
  
 Thanks for always keeping us updated with your results 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





lancerfin said:


> Screw DHL Express. In a week my H10 got from Sweden to Germany. (Bought mine used from natra). How long will it take until it gets to Finland.. 2 weeks? Stuff comes from China faster than this..


 
 It took me about three weeks to receive my X12 from Pollychen - he got the address wrong initially and then didn't contact me about it. Took a while for everything to be sorted. It'll be worth the wait, though!


----------



## LancerFIN

Waiting for X20 to come out and some European head-fier to sell his X12 =)


----------



## Arnotts

lancerfin said:


> Waiting for X20 to come out and some European head-fier to sell his X12 =)


 
 http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=gustard
  
 If you change the currency to Euros, you might actually find that the prices for the products when brand new are pretty good.
  
 When I changed the currency from US dollars to Australian dollars, the prices were MUCH cheaper than if I paid in US dollars and got it converted from Australian dollars.


----------



## stuartmc

arnotts said:


> @stuartmc
> 
> Would you recommend getting the U12 even if I use the USB connection straight from my PC to the X12? Was there an appreciable difference to you?
> 
> ...




I can't tell you definitively because I got my X12 without the usb daughter board. I figured I would go with the U12 if I decided to go the computer audio route. Some guys over on the U12 thread say there is a definite improvement with the U12 over the built in. This squares with what Gustard said through polychen about it. If you compare the daughter board to the U12 board, you will see a lot more attention given to the power supply and regulation with the U12.


----------



## LancerFIN

arnotts said:


> http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=gustard
> 
> If you change the currency to Euros, you might actually find that the prices for the products when brand new are pretty good.
> 
> When I changed the currency from US dollars to Australian dollars, the prices were MUCH cheaper than if I paid in US dollars and got it converted from Australian dollars.


 

 Yeah I noticed. But it's still over 400 euros with USB. Then comes the customs. VAT 24% and 5% import tax. You can cheat on that by asking them to forge receipt with lower price and declare lower value to customs but still I rather buy from Europe than do that.


----------



## stuartmc

Opening up the clam shell case and applying the AB5100s is easy peasy, so long as you have the right size/configuration tools for removing the two top screws in both the front and rear of the case. The top half then lifts right off. They are all square socket screws with the rear ones being quite small. I didn't have the right size for the larger front ones, but a hex allen wrench worked anyway because they weren't all that tight.


----------



## Arnotts

lancerfin said:


> Yeah I noticed. But it's still over 400 euros with USB. Then comes the customs. VAT 24% and 5% import tax. You can cheat on that by asking them to forge receipt with lower price and declare lower value to customs but still I rather buy from Europe than do that.


 
 Fair enough. I think they would be happy to put a lower value on the invoice, though. Pollychen put the value as $75 or something for my unit, even though Australian's don't get charged any import tax unless the product is over $1000. I didn't even ask him to do that.
  


stuartmc said:


> I can't tell you definitively because I got my X12 without the usb daughter board. I figured I would go with the U12 if I decided to go the computer audio route. Some guys over on the U12 thread say there is a definite improvement with the U12 over the built in. This squares with what Gustard said through polychen about it. If you compare the daughter board to the U12 board, you will see a lot more attention given to the power supply and regulation with the U12.


 
  
 Hmmmm... I'm crazy for even considering the U12. Music sounds amazing already with the X12 + H10. Why am I always looking for something better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Thanks for your input, Stu. I might end up with one some time soon.
  


schopenhauer said:


> *David Robinson the Admiral? *- But congrats! This is good news for the hobby as a whole because you do solid work. SS Gustard for life! I can't wait to read it!


 
 So that's what he's been up to after he left the Spurs...


----------



## LancerFIN

Tried removing the feet so I could fit it in my setup. Heard rattling noise so I took the cover off. What I see? One of the screws holding foot was also holding safety ground wire. Bad design. Also the screws were cheapest kind china crap. One was already stripped... Good thing I had 6mm socket to put the nut back in.
  
 Sound quality? Simply wow. This one is barely burnt in and it puts NFB-15 to shame. Soundstage got a lot wider. Hard to measure but 30-50% would not be exaggerating. Getting better soundstage now than what I had with NFB-15 and HD700. Sound is a lot clearer now. I'll have to listen more and think about right terms to describe.
  
 Anyway. I am now smiling from ear to ear. "You don't need more than nfb-15/o2/magni" <- lol


----------



## stuartmc

lancerfin said:


> Tried removing the feet so I could fit it in my setup. Heard rattling noise so I took the cover off. What I see? One of the screws holding foot was also holding safety ground wire. Bad design. Also the screws were cheapest kind china crap. One was already stripped... Good thing I had 6mm socket to put the nut back in.
> 
> Sound quality? Simply wow. This one is barely burnt in and it puts NFB-15 to shame. Soundstage got a lot wider. Hard to measure but 30-50% would not be exaggerating. Getting better soundstage now than what I had with NFB-15 and HD700. Sound is a lot clearer now. I'll have to listen more and think about right terms to describe.
> 
> Anyway. I am now smiling from ear to ear. "You don't need more than nfb-15/o2/magni" <- lol


 
 I warned everyone about the one foot near the IEC socket having a grounding wire. No biggy....I wanted to change the cheaper feet anyway.


----------



## conquerator2

I am very close to pulling the trigger on the X12.
It seems very promising and I've been going through many DACs lately... I think I want to go back to the Sabre land, especially if it is smooth like the X12. My faithful SA31SE would serve the duty for the HE-560, and would be the equivalent of the H10 IMO. I love this amp.

Two questions:

1) Does the X12 sound a lot better when running balanced vs single-ended? My amp is SE and I am not planning to change that.
2) I already have 2 good USB-I2S converters - U12 and DI-2014 - plus the X12 would be no slouch either, so I have that covered. I will run those into the I2S of X12. How is the optical input though? That one I will use a lot too. Does the X12 have a dedicated DIR chip for optical or does it use ES9018's internal one? More of a curiosity sake as the DI can do good optical duty... Still, would like to know.

Thank you everyone for your impressions in this thread, especially Stuart I reckon, who's the torchbearer of the SS Gustard


----------



## SodaBoy

conquerator2 said:


> I am very close to pulling the trigger on the X12.
> It seems very promising and I've been going through many DACs lately... I think I want to go back to the Sabre land, especially if it is smooth like the X12. My faithful SA31SE would serve the duty for the HE-560, and would be the equivalent of the H10 IMO. I love this amp.
> 
> Two questions:
> ...


 

 1. There's no problem, no difference running single ended on the X12. In my opinion single ended pure class A provides the best reproduction anyways, so we are on the same team lol.
  
 2. I haven't cracked open the Gustard to check, nor have I used the optical on it. Not really qualified to comment, but I can't imagine the toslink being worse than what you would find typically on a good DAC.


----------



## Gibalok

Should I decrese amplification -6db using it with low impedance headphones? Denon D7100 and Fostex TH900?


----------



## stuartmc

conquerator2 said:


> I am very close to pulling the trigger on the X12.
> It seems very promising and I've been going through many DACs lately... I think I want to go back to the Sabre land, especially if it is smooth like the X12. My faithful SA31SE would serve the duty for the HE-560, and would be the equivalent of the H10 IMO. I love this amp.
> 
> Two questions:
> ...


 
  
 Two, sort of answers, lol:
  
 1.  I don't think you lose much at all running single-ended.  I do have matching Analysis Plus Silver Ins in rca and xlr, so I was able to run it both ways from the X12 to the H10.  In my setup, I preferred the balanced connection. It seemed to lower the noise floor just slightly and produced a slightly more open, believable soundstage (the latter being most likely the byproduct of the former). I doubt whether you would notice the difference on most material.
  
 2.  I didn't see any separate chip near the optical input when I opened up the X12, but it may not be physically that close to it.  The optical input is the only one I haven't used, so I can't say a thing about how it sounds as compared to the other inputs.


----------



## LancerFIN

gibalok said:


> Should I decrese amplification -6db using it with low impedance headphones? Denon D7100 and Fostex TH900?


 

 Only if volume is too loud. There is some channel imbalance in the beginning of volume pot. You can put -6dB if want your usable range in the pot to be nearer to 12 o'clock. Other than that I don't think it should have any effect on actual sound quality.
  


> I do have matching Analysis Plus Silver Ins in rca and xlr, so I was able to run it both ways from the X12 to the H10.


 
  
 Both RCA and XLR can be plugged in simultaneously? I can use XLR from X12 to H10 and RCA from X12 to active speakers? I don't need sound at the same time. Just have them plugged in.


----------



## stuartmc

lancerfin said:


> Only if volume is too loud. There is some channel imbalance in the beginning of volume pot. You can put -6dB if want your usable range in the pot to be nearer to 12 o'clock. Other than that I don't think it should have any effect on actual sound quality.
> 
> 
> Both RCA and XLR can be plugged in simultaneously? I can use XLR from X12 to H10 and RCA from X12 to active speakers? I don't need sound at the same time. Just have them plugged in.


 
 Yes you can have them both plugged in at the same time. However, you will get no sound through the balanced connection until you throw the toggle switch on the back to enable them. Interestingly, when you do that, there is still sound coming out of the unbalanced connection.


----------



## LancerFIN

stuartmc said:


> Yes you can have them both plugged in at the same time. However, you will get no sound through the balanced connection until you throw the toggle switch on the back to enable them. Interestingly, when you do that, there is still sound coming out of the unbalanced connection.


 

 What switch? I can't see any in pictures. Only switches I know of are in the H10.


----------



## stuartmc

lancerfin said:


> What switch? I can't see any in pictures. Only switches I know of are in the H10.




Oops, sorry to confuse you. I was talking about the H10. The x12 will send signal from both outputs simultaneously


----------



## mjock3

My H10 arrived today. I feel a little silly asking this question but I need to anyway. The switches on the back are all down when the H10 arrived. I put the -12 switch up and listened, then put it down and put -6 up and was not able to discern any difference in volume. Am I missing something here?
  
 Thanks


----------



## stuartmc

mjock3 said:


> My H10 arrived today. I feel a little silly asking this question but I need to anyway. The switches on the back are all down when the H10 arrived. I put the -12 switch up and listened, then put it down and put -6 up and was not able to discern any difference in volume. Am I missing something here?
> 
> Thanks



If you did that on both channels and fully engaged the switch... They are small and somewhat stiff..... Then either you are hard of hearing or there is a problem with your H10


----------



## mjock3

Well I am a bit hard of hearing but I don't think that much. So it is just a case of 1 switch at a time right?
  
 Thanks


----------



## mjock3

I am using the HD650's and even +12 I can turn the volume full without it being loud.


----------



## stuartmc

mjock3 said:


> I am using the HD650's and even +12 I can turn the volume full without it being loud.




You need to put the switches up in both left and right channels. One switch at a time in each channel. Are you using the RCA inputs, or the xlr (balanced) inputs?


----------



## mjock3

that's what I am doing. I reckon I bought a lemon.


----------



## mjock3

I jumped the gun. I had the balanced switch up while using RCA's which seems to just give a flat gain.


----------



## RZoro

So for RCA switch must be pushed down?


----------



## Arnotts

rzoro said:


> So for RCA switch must be pushed down?


 
 The dip switch on the far left side should be DOWN for unbalanced input and UP for balanced input. The dip switches should look the same for the L and R channels.


----------



## RZoro

Oh. Thank you very much. Apparently I misunderstood the inscription on the amplifier. Rearranging switch tonight. Thanks again.


----------



## conquerator2

X12 ordered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Should be here next week


----------



## mjock3

rzoro said:


> Oh. Thank you very much. Apparently I misunderstood the inscription on the amplifier. Rearranging switch tonight. Thanks again.


 
 Yes that was my interpretation of the markings as well.
  
 Well I am at the 24 hour mark and this thing is just amazing. I am already enjoying it quite a bit. Can't wait to hear it in a few more days.
  
 Thanks to all who let me know how nice this piece is.


----------



## Joong

I considered to move for X12 to replace Conductor, which might not be an upgrade but parallel moving in quality.
 I am waiting for definitive quality of X12.
 Anybody for advice?


----------



## conquerator2

I'll be able to draw comparisons to the things I've owned, which are in my signature.


----------



## Gibalok

Quote: 





joong said:


> I considered to move for X12 to replace Conductor, which might not be an upgrade but parallel moving in quality.
> I am waiting for definitive quality of X12.
> Anybody for advice?


----------



## Joong

How is the X dac with H10?


----------



## natra084

hi guys my review on the Gustard U12 http://youtu.be/fl-MMogHYIA


----------



## gattari

Any opinion about the gustard H10 + sennheiser HD 800 ?


----------



## lukeap69

gattari said:


> Any opinion about the gustard H10 + sennheiser HD 800 ?




Good but not great. Check many pages back for impressions of those who have this combo.


----------



## lukeap69

zilch0md said:


> @lukeap69
> 
> 
> Haha!
> ...




Hi Mike

Did you receive your battery powered R2R NOS DAC? Interested in your impressions...


----------



## zilch0md

zilch0md said:


> @lukeap69
> 
> 
> Haha!
> ...







lukeap69 said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> Did you receive your battery powered R2R NOS DAC? Interested in your impressions...




Not yet. 

I ordered it 17 days ago. Going on how quickly gear arrives from China, Paris is much farther from Dallas, Texas. 

Tracking info doesn't provide an ETA, but it arrived in NYC on March 3rd, six days ago - 11 days after placing the order. 

I suppose it's also a long way from NYC to Dallas! 

Any day now...


----------



## lukeap69

No kidding? It takes this long?...


----------



## zilch0md

I've heard that China long ago struck some kind of trade deal with the U.S. that allows them to ship their stuff here faster and cheaper than other countries at similar distances.  I've never researched the veracity of this, however.


----------



## lukeap69

Hope you receive it soon... Will be interested in your impressions... Of course, it is that good, I may end up buying one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Now back to regular programming...


----------



## BangforBuck

Hi Folks,
  
 Has anyone had any experience pairing the Gustard H10 with Beyer T1? Any impressions or thoughts would be helpful.
  
 Kind regards,
  
 BangforBuck.


----------



## Utopia

bangforbuck said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Has anyone had any experience pairing the Gustard H10 with Beyer T1? Any impressions or thoughts would be helpful.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I've had that combination for a total of 24 hours now! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Still breaking in, but so far I'm very happy with it. The plan is to replace my T1s with HE560s, but right now I can't think of why.
  
 IMHO the H10 sounds warmer and fuller than both the Audio GD SA-31 and Bottlehead Crack (of course that depends on the tubes). All three amps are great, and probably very equal in overall quality, but for the moment I enjoy the fullness of the sound, which goes great with the clarity of the T1.


----------



## pippen99

Greetings from a new member!  Because of the glowing reviews posted in this thread I have jumped into this hobby.  My system Will be a Pure I20 dock, a Gustard  X12 DAC, A Gustard H10 headphone amp an Audeze LCD-2F headphones.  The final piece arrived today(H10 amp).  Upon removing the amp from its packaging I was greeted with a loud rattling noise.  This was discussed elsewhere and found to be loose motherboard screws.  I removed the legs and then the IEC and 5 screws rolled out.  My problems is that removing the legs does not allow for the removal of the case.  The posts mentioned before did not include instructions on opening the case.  The fasteners on the sides and back appear to be rivets(at first I thought they might be hex heads or allen screws).  I really want to hook this up and start listening but I'm concerned about what 5 screws might have been holding together. What am I not seeing?  Please help a rookie!


----------



## zilch0md

The Battery DAC has arrived...
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/709720/starting-point-systems-portable-nos-dac/15#post_11399021


----------



## lukeap69

zilch0md said:


> The Battery DAC has arrived...
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/709720/starting-point-systems-portable-nos-dac/15#post_11399021




Nice. Your early impressions are encouraging... Keep 'em coming Mike.


----------



## stuartmc

pippen99 said:


> Greetings from a new member!  Because of the glowing reviews posted in this thread I have jumped into this hobby.  My system Will be a Pure I20 dock, a Gustard  X12 DAC, A Gustard H10 headphone amp an Audeze LCD-2F headphones.  The final piece arrived today(H10 amp).  Upon removing the amp from its packaging I was greeted with a loud rattling noise.  This was discussed elsewhere and found to be loose motherboard screws.  I removed the legs and then the IEC and 5 screws rolled out.  My problems is that removing the legs does not allow for the removal of the case.  The posts mentioned before did not include instructions on opening the case.  The fasteners on the sides and back appear to be rivets(at first I thought they might be hex heads or allen screws).  I really want to hook this up and start listening but I'm concerned about what 5 screws might have been holding together. What am I not seeing?  Please help a rookie!




They aren't rivets they are square head screws. The top half of the case will lift off when you remove the top two screws on rear of the case and the top two screws on the front sides. The horizontal row of ridges half way up on each side of the case is actually where the top and bottom case halves dock together. They will separate once you get those screws out. I was able to use an Alan hex wrench on the front ones because they weren't too tight.


----------



## Arnotts

pippen99 said:


> Greetings from a new member!  Because of the glowing reviews posted in this thread I have jumped into this hobby.  My system Will be a Pure I20 dock, a Gustard  X12 DAC, A Gustard H10 headphone amp an Audeze LCD-2F headphones.  The final piece arrived today(H10 amp).  Upon removing the amp from its packaging I was greeted with a loud rattling noise.  This was discussed elsewhere and found to be loose motherboard screws.  I removed the legs and then the IEC and 5 screws rolled out.  My problems is that removing the legs does not allow for the removal of the case.  The posts mentioned before did not include instructions on opening the case.  The fasteners on the sides and back appear to be rivets(at first I thought they might be hex heads or allen screws).  I really want to hook this up and start listening but I'm concerned about what 5 screws might have been holding together. What am I not seeing?  Please help a rookie!


 
 Congratulations! It's a wonderful combination, the H10, X12 and LCD-2F. I use the H10 + X12 with my LCD-X's, LCD-2F's and soon the HD800's .
  
 It's worth noting that, although the sound was good to my ears initially, it improved significantly with more use. It's also worth noting that the sound becomes more dynamic/effortless/opened after some time to warm up from a cold start (as strange as that sounds, other users echo my experience here).
  
 Like most people who hear the Gustard products, at first there were some things that were "off" with the sound. Everything that was a little bit "off" disappeared with further use. Whether that's from the gear burning in or my brain getting used to it, I'm not sure, but things sound close to flawless to me now.
  
 Good luck sorting out those issues with the loose screws!


----------



## pippen99

Thanks for your help.  Allen wrench worked just fine.  For anyone who might need to open up their H10 a 3/32 works for the side screws and a 5/64 for the back.  The motherboard is held on by 7 screws.  Five had backed completely out and the other two were loose.  Probably should have used some Loctite but its not going anywhere.  Probably should have checked the X12 but it sounded tight, no rattles.  Everything hooked up, in working order and burn-in begun.  Will be around the forum hoping to learn more.  Thanks again for your help.


----------



## pippen99

Thanks for the welcome.  Got everything back together and working on burn-in.  First impression is good but not magical.  Judging by previous posts it will get there.  From what I've been reading maybe I pulled the trigger to soon on the LCD-2F.  Maybe I should have waited a little longer and got the LCD-X.  You have both, please tell me why you keep both and what are your impressions of each with this amp/dac combo.


----------



## stuartmc

pippen99 said:


> Thanks for the welcome.  Got everything back together and working on burn-in.  First impression is good but not magical.  Judging by previous posts it will get there.  From what I've been reading maybe I pulled the trigger to soon on the LCD-2F.  Maybe I should have waited a little longer and got the LCD-X.  You have both, please tell me why you keep both and what are your impressions of each with this amp/dac combo.




Since you took the feet screws off, you would have disconnected the ground wire that goes from the IEC socket to the base of the case. The foot screw there is the only one with a nut on inside that holds down the ground wire. Hopefully you saw this and reconnected it.


----------



## pippen99

Got it covered.  I saw that in a previous post by you and was expecting that.  After finally getting the case open that was probably the toughest thing to do.  Short fat stubby fingers!


----------



## Lohb

Is the recommended seller the one based in Taiwan on ebay ?


----------



## Schopenhauer

lohb said:


> Is the recommended seller the one based in Taiwan on ebay ?


 
 It's pollychen. I think he's based in Hong Kong IIRC.


----------



## Lohb

Thanks.
  
  
 Is the consensus that upstream this amp is better with well-implemented Sabre ES9018 or more musical but less detail-oriented chips like TI or old school R2R chips ? I always think in terms of balancing out the chain now...2 analytical components = no-no etc....


----------



## stuartmc

lohb said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Is the consensus that upstream this amp is better with well-implemented Sabre ES9018 or more musical but less detail-oriented chips like TI or old school R2R chips ? I always think in terms of balancing out the chain now...2 analytical components = no-no etc....




I compared it to the Aune S16 and also the Rega Apollo R. The latter had the top Wolfson chip that everyone thinks is smooth and musical. I found the X12 to be just as smooth, yet revealing more detail, better depth and greater dynamics. Kind of interesting to have all that and still be considered smooth.


----------



## pippen99

schopenhauer said:


> It's pollychen. I think he's based in Hong Kong IIRC.


 

 He's actually based in Shenzhen, a few miles north of Hong Kong.  I will give you my experience up to this point and then you can decide whether he is someone you want to do business with.  I purchased an H10 and X12 from him on Feb 9.  I received the equipment on Feb 19.  Unfortunately he shipped an X12 and a U12 usb Interface.  I emailed my problem and he responded promptly promising to ship the H10 out after Chinese New Year.  He also offered to discount the U12 if I wanted it.  I am using a ipod dock  (because I'm a Newbie) so don't think I have any use for the U12.  I communicated that I couldn't use the U12 and asked for a prepaid return or whatever to return it.
  
 I received the H10 on 3/10 with most of the screws falling out of the motherboard.  No problem, the good people on this forum coached me how to get the case open. Got it all hooked up and everything is working fine.
  
 Now today pollychen and I are playing email tag about returning the U12.  The cheapest shipping I have found going back to China is USPS at $85 and I am not fronting that myself even though he has done everything he said he would.  Maybe we are having an English/Chinese translation problem because he doesn't seem to understand that its going to cost to send it back.  I am not the one who shipped the wrong piece.  Am I being unreasonable?  I really don't think so.


----------



## Lohb

pippen99 said:


> He's actually based in Shenzhen, a few miles north of Hong Kong.  I will give you my experience up to this point and then you can decide whether he is someone you want to do business with.  I purchased an H10 and X12 from him on Feb 9.  I received the equipment on Feb 19.  Unfortunately he shipped an X12 and a U12 usb Interface.  I emailed my problem and he responded promptly promising to ship the H10 out after Chinese New Year.  He also offered to discount the U12 if I wanted it.  I am using a ipod dock  (because I'm a Newbie) so don't think I have any use for the U12.  I communicated that I couldn't use the U12 and asked for a prepaid return or whatever to return it.
> 
> I received the H10 on 3/10 with most of the screws falling out of the motherboard.  No problem, the good people on this forum coached me how to get the case open. Got it all hooked up and everything is working fine.
> 
> Now today pollychen and I are playing email tag about returning the U12.  The cheapest shipping I have found going back to China is USPS at $85 and I am not fronting that myself even though he has done everything he said he would.  Maybe we are having an English/Chinese translation problem because he doesn't seem to understand that its going to cost to send it back.  I am not the one who shipped the wrong piece.  Am I being unreasonable?  I really don't think so.


 

 Sorry to hear that. Maybe him selling it to your country on ebay would be easiest solution.


----------



## pippen99

lohb said:


> Sorry to hear that. Maybe him selling it to your country on ebay would be easiest solution.


 

 I'm waiting on the next communication from him.  I'm thinking that if he would put $20 in my paypal account I would ship this unit to his next U12 buyer in the U.S.  That would probably be the best solution for everybody.


----------



## Schopenhauer

pippen99 said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > It's pollychen. I think he's based in Hong Kong IIRC.
> ...


 
 You don't sound unreasonable. It sounds like pollychen needs to eat this one. 
  
 EDIT: That is, he should comp you the U12.


----------



## Don Lehrer

Gustard H10 for about 299.99 from massdrop.com, we need 9 people


----------



## Schopenhauer

don lehrer said:


> Gustard H10 for about 299.99 from massdrop.com, we need 9 people


 
 That's awesome! Precisely the sort of exposure Gustard needs.


----------



## MoatsArt

don lehrer said:


> Gustard H10 for about 299.99 from massdrop.com, we need 9 people


 
  
 I'm in at $299.  Have you considered an X12 drop?  Would be in on that too.


----------



## Arnotts

I'd just like to add that I'm really enjoying the HD800's way of presenting music. It's going very nicely with the U12 > X12 > H10 .
  
 It even sounds pretty great out of the M-Stage combo, but definitely less refined. I haven't done a proper comparison between the two for the HD800's yet.
  
 I haven't had them long enough to properly compare them with the LCD-X's either, but I think I'd still consider the X's as delivering a truer representation of my music. Sounds more "natural", but a little less open.
  
 The Subpac S2 is also pretty damn fantastic. Would highly recommend with high end headphones.


----------



## gattari

Arnotts do you thing the h10 is good enaugh with hd 800?


----------



## LancerFIN

I would have pulled the trigger on X12 from shenzhenaudio if that Euro price would be true. It's listed at 404€ with USB. When you proceed to payment it changes back to USD. After usd-eur conversion price is 536€. Euro is so trashed now. ****. I am not buying anything outside of Europe.


----------



## Arnotts

gattari said:


> Arnotts do you thing the h10 is good enaugh with hd 800?


 
 I have only ever heard the HD800 from the Matrix M-Stage stack as well as the Gustard U12 + X12 + H10 stack. It's unfortunate, as it means that I don't have many points of reference to hear exactly what the HD800's are capable of sounding like. Having said that, though, I have no interest in trying other amps/DACs  along with the HD800's - the sound I hear from the Gustard stack results in both the HD800's and LCD-X's being in the same league.
  
 My experience with both headphones are echoed pretty strongly in this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/609155/toxic-cables-impressions-and-discussion-thread/5580#post_10119891
  
 I don't find treble detail to be necessarily "lacking" in the LCD-X's - it sounds smoother and more natural to me. The HD800's have MORE treble extension and detail, giving it a brighter and hyper-detailed kind of sound that does not sound as natural to me. The Gustard stack helps reveal the details, but also prevents it from becoming too detailed/bright so that most recordings become unlistenable - it still has a nice, smooth quality to it. Bass is tight, but lacks accurate presence; it feels a little recessed compared to the X's, which makes it lack some punch and excitement.
  
 The HD800's are a very useful tool as a microscope for the music. I can hear details laid out across a large, spacious, airy soundstage (which in turn makes it even easier to hear these subtle details) in songs, which sometimes isn't the best for pleasure listening, but it's certainly useful when trying to learn how certain producers construct their tracks.
  
 As far as I can tell, the H10 drives the HD800's excellently. The SubPac S2 also helps alleviate the issue of the lack of bass presence for me.


----------



## lugnut

How much did the Gustard stack out class the M-Stage, if at all ?
 Never mind, read your post about the two, thanks.


----------



## DownSouth

Massdrop has this for $300 when 10 people sign up to purchase.
  
 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Massdrop%20-%20Master%20-%20Audiophile&utm_campaign=Audio%20Product%20Announcement%202015-03-16&utm_content=A&mode=guest_open


----------



## ElectroGeek007

Do any H10 owners have thoughts on pairing this amp with the HE-400? I am looking to begin my upgrade from the Magni/Modi setup I have (soon to be followed by a DAC upgrade), and from what I have seen in this thread, this seems to be a good place to start.


----------



## Arnotts

Quote:


lugnut said:


> How much did the Gustard stack out class the M-Stage, if at all ?
> Never mind, read your post about the two, thanks.


 
 I made a more in-depth comparison in the combined Gustard amps and DACs thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/30#post_11374713
  


electrogeek007 said:


> Do any H10 owners have thoughts on pairing this amp with the HE-400? I am looking to begin my upgrade from the Magni/Modi setup I have (soon to be followed by a DAC upgrade), and from what I have seen in this thread, this seems to be a good place to start.


 
 I own the HE-400's, but I haven't actually used them from the H10. I haven't used those headphones for a while... If I get time, I can do a bit of a comparison for you between the M-Stage and Gustard stacks.
  
 I don't know how much more they would open up with a more powerful amp like the H10, though. Can't say for sure unless I check the pairing out myself.
  
 Personally, I wouldn't upgrade my amp/DAC unless one of them became the weak link in my audio chain. Right now, I wouldn't have thought that the Magni/Modi are bottlenecking your HE-400's.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

arnotts said:


> Quote:
> I made a more in-depth comparison in the combined Gustard amps and DACs thread:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/30#post_11374713
> 
> ...


 
 That was a helpful comparison to the M-Stage stack. I wonder if, though, if it would be useful to swap amps with DACS to try to isolate which part is adding the glare and edginess to the experience, as this is a common trait that some have attributed to Sabre chips; perhaps glare and edginess are less features of the H10 amp. Also, the sense of extra detail, space, and imaging may be the corollary features of the X12 that counterbalance its potential toward glare.  I ask this because I am looking at the amp to pair with my Gungnir.


----------



## vlach

Anyone here compared the H10 to the NuForce HA-200 with planars?


----------



## bavinck

Uh, I am confused by the specs on the x12. Can it take up to 32 bit 384 kHz
DSDx64(2.8224MHz)、DSDx128(5.6448MHz) via USB? Also, what is iis?


----------



## hpamdr

vlach said:


> Anyone here compared the H10 to the NuForce HA-200 with planars?


 

 Both are good choice and very nice amps specially with planars. Both are sonically transparent  and with both you will even enjoy the Silence _! Both a_re good bargain for the price !
  
 For a One to One, the *H10* is more versatile and have much more power. But the gustard is more sensible to the source/DAC than the Nuforce.  It needs a warm-up time >30 minutes and at leat 50H of burning before really being out of the box. Nevertheless, if you stick with Single Ended headphone, source .. my advice is to go for the H10.
  
 But If you decide to go for full balanced setup, a* dual HA-200 *if for me the way to go (for now).
  
_// You also have to notice that for the Gustard, the customer service, the manual, ... are nonexistent unless you speak Chinese and are able to contact directly the factory !_


----------



## lukeap69

The H10 brought my portable planar PM-3 to another level. I thought it wouldn't scale well but it did... very nice.


----------



## Lohb

lukeap69 said:


> The H10 brought my portable planar PM-3 to another level. I thought it wouldn't scale well but it did... very nice.


 

 ...it's the magic pixie dust planar amp...looks like the best planar amp sub-$350 on the market.


----------



## vlach

hpamdr said:


> Both are good choice and very nice amps specially with planars. Both are sonically transparent  and with both you will even enjoy the Silence _! Both a_re good bargain for the price !
> 
> 
> For a One to One, the *H10* is more versatile and have much more power. But the gustard is more sensible to the source/DAC than the Nuforce.  It needs a warm-up time >30 minutes and at leat 50H of burning before really being out of the box. Nevertheless, if you stick with Single Ended headphone, source .. my advice is to go for the H10.
> ...




Thanks for your opinion. 
Out of curiosity; how did you reach these conclusions? Did you hear both amps fed from the same source? Did you A/B them? Just trying to understand the context in which you are making these pronounciations.


----------



## lukeap69

lohb said:


> ...it's the magic pixie dust planar amp...looks like the best planar amp sub-$350 on the market.




Yep it surely is...


----------



## Arnotts

lukeap69 said:


> Yep it surely is...


 
 It's definitely looking like it.
  
 The H10 is a very good all-round amplifier, but I think it really shines with planars, as you guys have all said already . It's definitely not bad at all with the HD800's, in fact it still sounds fantastic. But something about the U12 + Matrix combo with the HD800's makes me want to go back to it. The differences are subtle, though (a testament to the all-round ability of the H10, I think, since a lot of people love the M-Stage amp with the HD800's).
  
 I'm finding that the Gustard U12 --> Matrix M-Stage DAC --> Matrix M-Stage amp --> HD800's offers quite an amazing, musical sound. Possibly on par with the Gustard X12 --> Gustard H10 --> HD800's, if not a little bit more musical sounding!
  
 Could be because the M-Stage is more suitable for driving higher impedance headphones.
  
 I should probably mention that it was switching over the U12 to the M-Stage DAC that made me really love the sound even more. My X12 already has the XMOS USB input, and it sounds just as good without the U12 imo. Could have been the old, possibly low quality HDMI cable that I used for I2S, but I've never bothered to try different ones.
 Amazing devices, all these Gustard products 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 EDIT: I really should do proper comparisons before I say anything for certain. We all know that comparing different equipment like this really requires getting into the subtleties! I'm listening to the HD800's through the X12 + H10 right now and still loving it


----------



## Utopia

> Could be because the M-Stage is more suitable for driving higher impedance headphones.


 
  
 I think it has a lot to do with output impedance. I think it's 5 ohm for the M-Stage, which makes it a good match for the HD800. Don't know what it is for the H10, though.


----------



## bavinck

I can't find a dedicated x12 thread, so not sure if this is the best place to ask. Has anyone compared the x12 to audio gd nfb1? Is there a general consensus on which dac works better with the h10?


----------



## pippen99

Update: One week Pure I20 + X12 + H10 + Audeze LCD-2f.  I have somewhere between 30 and 40 hours on this combination so far.  It's hard to believe that equipment this expensive and with such great reviews can sound so horrible out of the box.  Everything initially in the middle was pushed forward at the expense of the top end and especially the low end.  I could hear the promise of greater things in music with spare instrumentation but any passage with much orchestration sounded muddled and confused.  Vocals that I remember as powerful from my HFI-2400 sounded thin and full of echo through the LCD-2f.  At the beginning I was using an Ipod Touch as a source.  When that sounded so bad I switched to an Ipod Nano and eventually to an Ipad Gen 2.
  
 Finally after 5 days there was some improvement with the middle still shoved forward but now better definition. Finally there was a little bass but not what I would call good much less great.  Because of the lack of low end I feel it contributes to the middle lacking fullness(thin and echo). Thinking the I20 might be a weak link, I use my HP laptop as a source using the USB as connector.  I only had time last night to A/B one song going back and forth between the HP and the Ipad(on the I20) and did not hear a significant difference.  Now every now and then a song will play and I hear what I thought I would hear based on the reviews and comments in this thread.
  
 Now to confess the user limiting factors.  60 years of age is in the rear view mirror.  I spent 2 years running a 40 ft Litho press in a room with 6 other presses.  For 40 years headphones have been my preferred way of enjoying music.  I've attended nearly 400 rock concerts.  Classic rock is my preferred genre of music and I suspect a lot of what I like was just not recorded that well and that fact is revealed by a hi-fi headphone system.
  
 With all the above said I hope I have not made a very expensive mistake.  I have read this thread from beginning to end and don't recall the lack of low end especially with the LCD-2f to have been a prominent problem, al least not to the extent that I am experiencing.  Please feel fear to chime in with suggestions, commiserations, and reassurances.  Hopefully the next week will bring further improvement.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> Update: One week Pure I20 + X12 + H10 + Audeze LCD-2f.  I have somewhere between 30 and 40 hours on this combination so far.  It's hard to believe that equipment this expensive and with such great reviews can sound so horrible out of the box.  Everything initially in the middle was pushed forward at the expense of the top end and especially the low end.  I could hear the promise of greater things in music with spare instrumentation but any passage with much orchestration sounded muddled and confused.  Vocals that I remember as powerful from my HFI-2400 sounded thin and full of echo through the LCD-2f.  At the beginning I was using an Ipod Touch as a source.  When that sounded so bad I switched to an Ipod Nano and eventually to an Ipad Gen 2.
> 
> Finally after 5 days there was some improvement with the middle still shoved forward but now better definition. Finally there was a little bass but not what I would call good much less great.  Because of the lack of low end I feel it contributes to the middle lacking fullness(thin and echo). Thinking the I20 might be a weak link, I use my HP laptop as a source using the USB as connector.  I only had time last night to A/B one song going back and forth between the HP and the Ipad(on the I20) and did not hear a significant difference.  Now every now and then a song will play and I hear what I thought I would hear based on the reviews and comments in this thread.
> 
> ...


 
 I am really sorry to hear that. If you don't mind me asking, what previous headphones were you using? It's hard to tell if you just don't like the headphones as they are or whether this can be attributed to the gear through which you're listening to them.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

conquerator2 said:


> I'll be able to draw comparisons to the things I've owned, which are in my signature.


 
 Have you received the X12 yet?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

utopia said:


> I've had that combination for a total of 24 hours now!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's amazing that you find the H10 warmer and fuller than the Crack for your T1s. Do you still hold up to that impression?


----------



## Arnotts

@pippen99
  
 I primarily use the X12 + H10 with my LCD-X's, and recently I've been using it with the HD800's too.
  
 I've taken my LCD-2F's to my other PC with the X12 + H10 and I'm listening to them right now. I actually think the Gustard combo sounds better after it's been left on and running for a while, but it still sounds excellent to me from a cold start.
  
 It was actually this very setup (minus the X12 at the time) that got me to sell my Ultrasone Pro 900's - I no longer needed them as electronica headphones. The LCD-2's provided higher quality, thicker, deeper and yet tighter bass for me.
  
 This setup still sounds fantastic to me. I'm listening to KOAN Sound - Eastern Thug (bass heavy glitch hop) and it sounds incredible. Thick, deep, textured and impactful bass.
  
 Other songs from different genres have all been sounding great too. It's a more raw, resolving presentation than the M-Stages, which are smoother and not quite as good at imaging/soundstage presentation.
  
 Steely Dan - Peg
 Coldplay - Sparks
 Tom Petty - Something In the Air
 Jet - Are You Gonna Be My Girl
  
 All sound excellent, too. The LCD-2F's sound so good to me, that I want to keep all three of my top tier headphones; LCD-X's, HD800's and LCD-2F's. The X's are better in most ways, sure, but the 2F's still offer a beautiful, high-end sound that I love to listen to.
  
 Hopefully it improves for you, mate. Everyone that I've shown these headphones to has been blown away by how music sounds.


----------



## pippen99

liu junyuan said:


> I am really sorry to hear that. If you don't mind me asking, what previous headphones were you using? It's hard to tell if you just don't like the headphones as they are or whether this can be attributed to the gear through which you're listening to them.


 
 I've never been one to buy or sell equipment through the years.  Long ago I started with Koss Pro4AA then moved on to Koss ESP 9 electrostatic headphones which I used for years.  After those I moved to Ultrasone HFI-700 and then on to Ultrasone HFI-2400.  I was considering going further upscale in the Ultrasone line but was influenced by this Forum to consider Audeze or HiFiMan as Ultrasone does not appear to be on the radar of Head-fiers


----------



## conquerator2

liu junyuan said:


> Have you received the X12 yet?


 
 No. Tomorrow I hope


----------



## auvgeek

@pippen99: If you listen daily, just leave the system on all the time, especially the DAC. That's what I've been doing, and I think it just sounds better. Are you sure all your interconnects are attached properly and the switches are in the proper position for your setup? One additional random guess is that your recordings are the weak link—maybe try the free Spotify premium trial (1 month), free Tidal trial (7 days), or one of the HD Tracks free samples. Just a thought.
  
 I don't have the X12, but the H10 + LCD-2F pairing is amazing, particularly in mid-bass. Percussion hits hard and tight. Sub bass isn't quite as prominent (compared to HE-560), but I actually prefer that.


----------



## auvgeek

conquerator2 said:


> No. Tomorrow I hope


 

 Said it before, but I'm very interested in hearing your thoughts on the Gungnir vs X12. I don't think anyone else has been able to offer that comparison yet, and one of these two will likely be my next DAC. (Or maybe the new X20, depending on price.)


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> I've never been one to buy or sell equipment through the years.  Long ago I started with Koss Pro4AA then moved on to Koss ESP 9 electrostatic headphones which I used for years.  After those I moved to Ultrasone HFI-700 and then on to Ultrasone HFI-2400.  I was considering going further upscale in the Ultrasone line but was influenced by this Forum to consider Audeze or HiFiMan as Ultrasone does not appear to be on the radar of Head-fiers




Gotchya. I would suggest giving it some more time and do ensure your gain switches are properly set. Let your ears try to adjust. I usually feel disappointed with high end headphones, especially when I bought my HD650s. If you still feel dissatisfied after a week or two, perhaps it would be time to readjust by returning/selling the gear for another setup. Also, I really cannot emphasize how important it is to play high quality files. Although debatable, I would not listen to anything less than 320 bps mp3s or lossless through that setup. If you are in to classic rock, Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here is a good one) and Rush use pretty high quality recordings.

I do not own the H10 yet but am looking at joining the drop soon, after much deliberation over a solid SS setup for my headphones. I was very close to going with Lake People G109, but this H10 is seeming highly comparable while being more affordable. 

Anyways, I hope you come to enjoy your gear as much as some others have said.


----------



## pippen99

auvgeek said:


> @pippen99: If you listen daily, just leave the system on all the time, especially the DAC. That's what I've been doing, and I think it just sounds better. Are you sure all your interconnects are attached properly and the switches are in the proper position for your setup? One additional random guess is that your recordings are the weak link—maybe try the free Spotify premium trial (1 month), free Tidal trial (7 days), or one of the HD Tracks free samples. Just a thought.
> 
> I don't have the X12, but the H10 + LCD-2F pairing is amazing, particularly in mid-bass. Percussion hits hard and tight. Sub bass isn't quite as prominent (compared to HE-560), but I actually prefer that.


 
 I am using balanced interconnects and according to previous posts if I didn't have the switches in the correct position I wouldn't be getting proper volume, so I'm sure I'm okay there.  I left the gain switches alone and if I understand their use they would not affect sound quality.  The readout on the X12 follows:  Opti(using optical between I20 and X12), sharp, 44.1K, 00db.  When I made the decision to get a hi-fi system I reripped all my CDs using Apple lossless so except what I purchased from ITunes bitrate 780-900 kbps sample rate 44.1 kHz.


----------



## pippen99

liu junyuan said:


> Gotchya. I would suggest giving it some more time and do ensure your gain switches are properly set. Let your ears try to adjust. I usually feel disappointed with high end headphones, especially when I bought my HD650s. If you still feel dissatisfied after a week or two, perhaps it would be time to readjust by returning/selling the gear for another setup. Also, I really cannot emphasize how important it is to play high quality files. Although debatable, I would not listen to anything less than 320 bps mp3s or lossless through that setup. If you are in to classic rock, Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here is a good one) and Rush use pretty high quality recordings.
> 
> I do not own the H10 yet but am looking at joining the drop soon, after much deliberation over a solid SS setup for my headphones. I was very close to going with Lake People G109, but this H10 is seeming highly comparable while being more affordable.
> 
> Anyways, I hope you come to enjoy your gear as much as some others have said.


 
 I am new at this hobby.  I was under the impression the gain switches would affect power output and would have little to do with sound quality.


----------



## auvgeek

pippen99 said:


> I was under the impression the gain switches would affect power output and would have little to do with sound quality.


 
 I think you're correct there. Moreover, I think the H10 sounds great with the LCD-2F at zero gain.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> I am new at this hobby.  I was under the impression the gain switches would affect power output and would have little to do with sound quality.


 
 Sorry, yeah, I was more referring to if you had the gain set too high, which might make music sounds distorted--kind of like how you described it in your first post.


----------



## Lohb

pippen99 said:


> Update: One week Pure I20 + X12 + H10 + Audeze LCD-2f.  I have somewhere between 30 and 40 hours on this combination so far.  It's hard to believe that equipment this expensive and with such great reviews can sound so horrible out of the box.  Everything initially in the middle was pushed forward at the expense of the top end and especially the low end.  I could hear the promise of greater things in music with spare instrumentation but any passage with much orchestration sounded muddled and confused.  Vocals that I remember as powerful from my HFI-2400 sounded thin and full of echo through the LCD-2f.  At the beginning I was using an Ipod Touch as a source.  When that sounded so bad I switched to an Ipod Nano and eventually to an Ipad Gen 2.
> 
> Finally after 5 days there was some improvement with the middle still shoved forward but now better definition. Finally there was a little bass but not what I would call good much less great.  Because of the lack of low end I feel it contributes to the middle lacking fullness(thin and echo). Thinking the I20 might be a weak link, I use my HP laptop as a source using the USB as connector.  I only had time last night to A/B one song going back and forth between the HP and the Ipad(on the I20) and did not hear a significant difference.  Now every now and then a song will play and I hear what I thought I would hear based on the reviews and comments in this thread.
> 
> ...


 

 Some people find LCD-2c bass light if they came from hard hitting dynamic cones...and by a lot of impressions 2F has less low-end heft again....Planar low-end is a different animal to adjust to at first for some people, then the texture and speed come to the forefront of the exp. vs 1-note fartiness.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Well, I am in the drop for this amp. I've been seriously researching SS amps for months. I just was tempted by the deal and the purported similarities between this and Lake People/ Violectric amps. I very much look forward to pairing this with the Gungnir through balanced input.


----------



## Arnotts

Alright, I've just done a more thorough comparison with the HD800's on both of my rigs. This is my procrastination instead of studying 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
*Gustard U12 --> TOSLINK >Matrix M-Stage DAC --> RCA > Matrix M-Stage amp --> HD800's*
  
 Wonderful sound, especially for the price for the whole setup. The sound of the HD800's comes through very well. I wrote down some notes for the seven test tracks that I used, and they all said similar things:
  
 • Holographic, spacious soundstage
 • Imaging is great, but it's noticeable that some elements are a little blurred together (this is a nitpick from very critical listening)
 • Slight tilt towards the treble region, an airy, detailed and slightly "thin" sound
 • Still sounds natural/neutral, the slight tilt towards the treble region allows more detail to come through, and allows the music to have a better sense of space between elements
 • Bass goes deep and has nice texture, but lacks some presence imo
 • Musical sound - I don't consider the sound to have excessive micro-detail or excessively highlight flaws in recordings
 • No harshness, sibilance or glare (unless it's present in the recording)
  
 The U12 improves the imaging/soundstage and helps mitigate any potential treble glare imo. Makes the whole chain sound more musical and enjoyable.
  
*Gustard X12 DAC --> balanced XLR > Gustard H10 amp --> HD800's*
  
 Even more refined than the M-Stage stack - an improvement in every way to my ears. All the positive aspects from the M-Stage rig still exist, but are improved upon even further. The differences would only be heard if you are truly actively LISTENING to the music, though, not just passively "hearing" the music.
  
 • Bass is a little bit more powerful and present (this gives the headphones a better balance imo)
 • Imaging and separation is improved even further (more space between elements in the music, easier to pick out where each element is located in the soundstage)
 • More details are evident in each sound
 • Still retains that smoothness that keeps the sound from getting overly bright/detailed, keeps it very enjoyable
  
 TL;DR
 X12 + H10 is better with the HD800's, but I have absolutely no issue with using and enjoying the M-Stage stack when using the HD800's, too.


----------



## FlySweep

liu junyuan said:


> Well, I am in the drop for this amp. I've been seriously researching SS amps for months. I just was tempted by the deal and the purported similarities between this and Lake People/ Violectric amps. I very much look forward to pairing this with the Gungnir through balanced input.


 
  
 As someone whose owned both a Violectric amp (V200) & Lake People amp (G109).. and loved them both.. I sense you'll be very happy with the H10.. the H10 was my fav out of the three.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

flysweep said:


> As someone whose owned both a Violectric amp (V200) & Lake People amp (G109).. and loved them both.. I sense you'll be very happy with the H10.. the H10 was my fav out of the three.




Smiley face times 1,000,000


----------



## Liu Junyuan

flysweep said:


> As someone whose owned both a Violectric amp (V200) & Lake People amp (G109).. and loved them both.. I sense you'll be very happy with the H10.. the H10 was my fav out of the three.




Sorry for double-post. Could you please possible elaborate as to why?


----------



## sahmen

Also in the drop. Reading this thread convinced me. We'll see where this rabbit hole leads.


----------



## Lohb

sahmen said:


> Also in the drop. Reading this thread convinced me. We'll see where this rabbit hole leads.


 

 Great drop for USA, but the shipping negates the saving for me.. ;-(
 Wonder what price the balanced amp will come in at....


----------



## Utopia

liu junyuan said:


> That's amazing that you find the H10 warmer and fuller than the Crack for your T1s. Do you still hold up to that impression?


 
  
 I still think it sounds warmer and fuller, after about 70 hours, in the sense that the sound is darker, rounder, with more prominent bass. The Crack sounds brighter, but still with a very nice smoothness to its sound. Of course the sound of the Crack depends on tubes (mine are stock).


----------



## Liu Junyuan

utopia said:


> I still think it sounds warmer and fuller, after about 70 hours, in the sense that the sound is darker, rounder, with more prominent bass. The Crack sounds brighter, but still with a very nice smoothness to its sound. Of course the sound of the Crack depends on tubes (mine are stock).




Thank you. I dont know what to make of this now since Im actually trying to make my system less warm: this is why I want an SS amp in the first place. Hmmm


----------



## conquerator2

SS amps that sound 'warmer' are almost always still very close to neutral. From my understanding, it is nowhere near tube warm... From my experience as well... SS amps never sounded significantly warm to me... I should really give the Vali a shot eventually I guess.


----------



## Chodi

lohb said:


> Great drop for USA, but the shipping negates the saving for me.. ;-(
> Wonder what price the balanced amp will come in at....


 
 Here is a solution:  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GUSTARD-H10-amp-high-current-Class-A-Headphone-Amplifier-AC115V-230V/32264637987.html


----------



## olek

My wallet is mumbling something under its breath about all of you raising ruckus over H10.
 Can not hear if it is something good or bad.
  
 In for the drop.
  
 One hour or so left, if YOU are still on a fence, hurry!


----------



## Joong

pippen99 said:


> Update: One week Pure I20 + X12 + H10 + Audeze LCD-2f.  I have somewhere between 30 and 40 hours on this combination so far.  It's hard to believe that equipment this expensive and with such great reviews can sound so horrible out of the box.  Everything initially in the middle was pushed forward at the expense of the top end and especially the low end.  I could hear the promise of greater things in music with spare instrumentation but any passage with much orchestration sounded muddled and confused.  Vocals that I remember as powerful from my HFI-2400 sounded thin and full of echo through the LCD-2f.  At the beginning I was using an Ipod Touch as a source.  When that sounded so bad I switched to an Ipod Nano and eventually to an Ipad Gen 2.
> 
> Finally after 5 days there was some improvement with the middle still shoved forward but now better definition. Finally there was a little bass but not what I would call good much less great.  Because of the lack of low end I feel it contributes to the middle lacking fullness(thin and echo). Thinking the I20 might be a weak link, I use my HP laptop as a source using the USB as connector.  I only had time last night to A/B one song going back and forth between the HP and the Ipad(on the I20) and did not hear a significant difference.  Now every now and then a song will play and I hear what I thought I would hear based on the reviews and comments in this thread.
> 
> ...



Probably the bad SQ may be due to noise around the Sources. The position of source ( dac) is exposed to noise of digital switching or modularions so that high frequency noise known as Rfi can be aliased back to audible range.
When you design an electrical transducer, design is something and EMC design is yet another.
This might be reason why Audio Gd has so much power related subsystems to support noise sinking to the sea of zero impedance for noise path.
Usual zero impedance is through capacitor bank in genral.if you could not find the path, then you can absorbe the noise energy by applying ferrite pad. Or you can reroute the cable around the dac. The cable can act as dipole attenna to receive or emit noises.
When you really appreciate the pure music or signal with usual Dac, the RFI should be solved some how as Stuwart did for his x12. 
My Conductor began to have the value when I blocked the noise path and it became different one now.


----------



## conquerator2

Would there be any benefit to use an XLR to RCA cable to connect the X12's balanced XLR output to a single-ended RCA amplifier input?
 Is such a connection safe?
 Something like this for example - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Livewire-2-x-Female-XLR-To-2-x-RCA-Phono-Twin-Lead-1-5M-Cable-/331275589928?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4d21905928
 Thanks


----------



## Gibalok

conquerator2 said:


> Would there be any benefit to use an XLR to RCA cable to connect the X12's balanced XLR output to a single-ended RCA amplifier input?
> Is such a connection safe?
> Something like this for example - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Livewire-2-x-Female-XLR-To-2-x-RCA-Phono-Twin-Lead-1-5M-Cable-/331275589928?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4d21905928
> Thanks




What a creepy cable..


----------



## conquerator2

Alright. Thanks for answering my question


----------



## DownSouth

The impedance of the balanced versus the unbalanced output might, repeat might, make a slight difference in sound or noise level.
 The balun cable should work fine, but only your ears will tell.  I've never been able to measure or hear a difference as long as both cables were good quality.
 I'd try a good unbalanced RCA to RCA cable and if you're happy with the sound and noise floor leave it that way, but others here might know something I don't.
 I've only been doing high end audio for 42 years and I'm still learning.


----------



## conquerator2

I already have a nice RCA cable, but thought about ordering a decent XLR-RCA cable just to have room for possible comparisons.
 Might reconsider that. Thanks :]


----------



## daltonlanny

So what is the final verdict on the Gustard H10 paired with the HifiMan HE-6?
Is it an acceptable combination, or not too good?
Any opinions would be appreciated.


----------



## No_One411

daltonlanny said:


> So what is the final verdict on the Gustard H10 paired with the HifiMan HE-6?
> Is it an acceptable combination, or not too good?
> Any opinions would be appreciated.


 
 Here are my $0.02. 
  
 It's certainly doable, with enough headroom to spare at the +12 pre-gain setting. 
  
 However, I say this with some reservations. It has similar problems to driving the HD800. I found it a little on the thinner side, and sometimes brought out the worst in the upper-mid, treble region. 
  
 If you were looking for a relatively cheap option to drive your HE-6s, I think these are serviceable. IMO they performed a bit better when driving the HE500 or HE560s. I've recently tried them with the HD650s and K7XX (Massdrop version), and the Gustard H10 performed admirably.
  
 Hope this helps, 
 --Jeff
  
 Also, I'm glad to see the Massdrop listing. Should hopefully introduce this amp to people at a reasonable price. Massdrop usually screens their listings, so their staff must have liked it.


----------



## daltonlanny

Which would you all most recommend using most, the Gustard H10 amp, or using the speaker outputs on my Harman Kardon HK 3490 120w/ch receiver using an HE adapter box to drive the HE-6?
Thanks.


----------



## conquerator2

The speaker outputs for sure


----------



## swannie007

Been listening to my Gustard U12, X10, H10 stack with my HD650's for the last day or two, as apposed to my normal HE400i's, and I must say it is quite a nice combo. I haven't listened to my HD650's for a while now as I found the sound a little "distant, or "veiled" but recently my tinnitus   
 has been slightly aggravated so I decided to listen to a more "laid back" set of earphones with my Gustard stack and I must say I find the HD650's much more enjoyable than I have ever before. Admittedly, I have not listened to the 650's with the Gustard stack for too long in the past but now that I have logged a lot more hours on the stack, I find the 650's waaay more enjoyable than before, and, it has not aggravated my tinnitus either, bonus.
 So, those of you out there that prefer a more laid back, yet still detailed sound, try this combo, you will not be disappointed.
 Greeting to my fellow shipmates on the SS Gustard and in particular, our captain, The High and Holy Master Guinea Pig, Stu.


----------



## ansi

swannie007 said:


> Been listening to my Gustard U12, X10, H10 stack with my HD650's for the last day or two, as apposed to my normal HE400i's, and I must say it is quite a nice combo. I haven't listened to my HD650's for a while now as I found the sound a little "distant, or "veiled" but recently my tinnitus
> has been slightly aggravated so I decided to listen to a more "laid back" set of earphones with my Gustard stack and I must say I find the HD650's much more enjoyable than I have ever before. Admittedly, I have not listened to the 650's with the Gustard stack for too long in the past but now that I have logged a lot more hours on the stack, I find the 650's waaay more enjoyable than before, and, it has not aggravated my tinnitus either, bonus.
> So, those of you out there that prefer a more laid back, yet still detailed sound, try this combo, you will not be disappointed.
> Greeting to my fellow shipmates on the SS Gustard and in particular, our captain, The High and Holy Master Guinea Pig, Stu.


 
  
 One of the things I didn't mention in my Gustard interview bit in the general Gustard thread was HD650. Their gear is actually designed to match with HD650 as well as possible since that's the most popular high end headphone in China. Figuratively every hobbyist owns a pair.
  
  


daltonlanny said:


> So what is the final verdict on the Gustard H10 paired with the HifiMan HE-6?
> Is it an acceptable combination, or not too good?
> Any opinions would be appreciated.


 
  
 I asked Gustard that question as well. It's not meant to drive HE-6. It can, and won't sound terrible but it's not optimal.


----------



## Chodi

ansi said:


> One of the things I didn't mention in my Gustard interview bit in the general Gustard thread was HD650. Their gear is actually designed to match with HD650 as well as possible since that's the most popular high end headphone in China. Figuratively every hobbyist owns a pair.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked Gustard that question as well. It's not meant to drive HE-6. It can, and won't sound terrible but it's not optimal.


 
 Any comment on if H10 is practical for use with iem's? I'm wondering if the impedance and the noise floor are low enough? I have a Matrix M Stage amp that works fine with iem's but the H10 is obviously better quality so I am interested.


----------



## No_One411

chodi said:


> Any comment on if H10 is practical for use with iem's? I'm wondering if the impedance and the noise floor are low enough? I have a Matrix M Stage amp that works fine with iem's but the H10 is obviously better quality so I am interested.


 
 I've used my UERMs with the H10, though I need to use the -6 setting. The UERM also comes with an impedance adapter, which helps. 
  
 You are generally limited on volume knob to < 9 o'clock without the impedance adapter. 
  
 Hope this helps, 
  
 --Jeff


----------



## Chodi

no_one411 said:


> I've used my UERMs with the H10, though I need to use the -6 setting. The UERM also comes with an impedance adapter, which helps.
> 
> You are generally limited on volume knob to < 9 o'clock without the impedance adapter.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the comment. I've had mixed results using impedance adapters on some amp/iem's it changes the frequency response. I use iem's to listen at home so I'm looking for a full size amp that can handle that. Basically,  the amp needs to have an output impedance of 1 ohm or less.


----------



## No_One411

chodi said:


> Thanks for the comment. I've had mixed results using impedance adapters on some amp/iem's it changes the frequency response. I use iem's to listen at home so I'm looking for a full size amp that can handle that. Basically,  the amp needs to have an output impedance of 1 ohm or less.


 
 I've generally been using my UERMs out of my phone for the most part. Much more convenient that way.  Impedance adapter is a mixed bag, but the UE one is pretty decent. Similar quality to the Etymotic ER4P->S converter I'd say. 
  
 I'll be looking into the new Leckerton and Cavalli amps for the UERMs though. I'd stay away from the Gustard H10 for the most part.


----------



## Lohb

If they publish an email address soon let us know !


----------



## Utopia

ansi said:


> One of the things I didn't mention in my Gustard interview bit in the general Gustard thread was HD650. Their gear is actually designed to match with HD650 as well as possible since that's the most popular high end headphone in China. Figuratively every hobbyist owns a pair.


 
  
 That's very interesting, since the HD650 is high impedance, and the H10 also works very well with low impedance planars. It seems to be a great all-rounder.


----------



## conquerator2

The X12 just arrived.
Will listen in a bit hopefully


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Been listening to my Gustard U12, X10, H10 stack with my HD650's for the last day or two, as apposed to my normal HE400i's, and I must say it is quite a nice combo. I haven't listened to my HD650's for a while now as I found the sound a little "distant, or "veiled" but recently my tinnitus
> has been slightly aggravated so I decided to listen to a more "laid back" set of earphones with my Gustard stack and I must say I find the HD650's much more enjoyable than I have ever before. Admittedly, I have not listened to the 650's with the Gustard stack for too long in the past but now that I have logged a lot more hours on the stack, I find the 650's waaay more enjoyable than before, and, it has not aggravated my tinnitus either, bonus.
> So, those of you out there that prefer a more laid back, yet still detailed sound, try this combo, you will not be disappointed.
> Greeting to my fellow shipmates on the SS Gustard and in particular, our captain, The High and Holy Master Guinea Pig, Stu.


 
 Swannie!...my bosun from the bush!  We have missed you around these parts.  Don't let that tinnitus get out of hand - we need you to man the mizzenmast on the SS Gustard.
  
 Lots of things are in the works. New gear in for review to compare to the Gustard counterparts and the upcoming x20 and balanced amp. I will do my level best to get my hands on the newest Gustard gear and give a full report to the swabbies.


----------



## conquerator2

While waiting for the U12, I received my X12 today.
 So far, impressions are very positive. Great sound, very smooth, especially for a Sabre. Definitely smoother than my previous Sabre DACs. Great details.
 So far so good. Very impressed in the first hour. Will continue to listen


----------



## Joong

How well is it with respect to your old Audio-gd NFB-7?


----------



## conquerator2

X12 impressions are positive so far. I feel like it pretty much nails the NFB-28 impressions. Very similar sound.
 The X12 might be that. I received it about an hour ago and from very early impressions [going through my favorite pieces atm] it sits squarely between my NFB-7 and Gungnir.
 More resolving than the Gungnir but one of the most analogue and smoothest sounding Sabres that I've heard.
 I'd say it keeps most of the musicality and smoothness of the Gungnir and adds a layer of detail and better separation of the Sabres. The least 'digititis' I've heard on a Sabre too. I'd say it rivals Gungnir in that. Also, very black background. Like, dead silent. Sounds just come and go - pretty cool.
 It is not as airy and trebly as my previous NFB-7 and is definitely less revealing and detailed too, but it does keep things fairly more musical than the NFB-7 did and easier on the ears.
  
 Again, just preliminary impressions. Give me a bit to adjust but so far I am feeling very good about these ~550$ spent. I think it might keep me occupied until the Yggy is out. and I might actually get the HE-1000 first. I feel like it is the more important part of my chain right now as the X12 really seems very good _*so far*_.


----------



## stuartmc

conquerator2 said:


> While waiting for the U12, I received my X12 today.
> So far, impressions are very positive. Great sound, very smooth, especially for a Sabre. Definitely smoother than my previous Sabre DACs. Great details.
> So far so good. Very impressed in the first hour. Will continue to listen


 
 Yep, I was wowed by how smooth and musical the X12 was for a Sabre dac.  It was easily as smooth as my Rega with the Wolfson chip with greater resolution.   I found there to be a significant burn in time for the X12 - not as dramatic as the H10, but still noticeable over the first 40 hours or so.  Let us know how things progress.


----------



## swannie007

Greetings Captain Stu and all the other swabbies on the SS Gustard. Have been out of touch as I have been away from home working in the bush with no internet coverage, can be very frustrating. Anyway, I am home now and will be staying in touch. Nice to read all the positive reports on the latest Gustard gear. I have been enjoying mine immensely since my return home. Away from home I have been using my portable rig, a Shanling M3 DAP with a Cayin C5 amp with T Peos three way earphones, I believe they are the H300's or something. Stunning sound! Would not have believed I could get this sort of sound from a medium priced portable rig(~AU$1300.00).
Take care all and greetings from "The Bosun in The Bush"


----------



## Liu Junyuan

conquerator2 said:


> While waiting for the U12, I received my X12 today.
> So far, impressions are very positive. Great sound, very smooth, especially for a Sabre. Definitely smoother than my previous Sabre DACs. Great details.
> So far so good. Very impressed in the first hour. Will continue to listen :wink_face:




That is very good to hear.


----------



## conquerator2

Day 2 impressions pretty much mimic day 1.
 I would say so far that this is the most natural, balanced and one of the smoothest DACs I've had so far.
 I now feel that the NFB-7 had a bigger-than-life sound and an enhanced treble - it made it the master of instrumental music but was ultimately too unforgiving with anything else that had vocals. The Gungnir, while better, has a definite bass emphasis, the midrange being a bit too smooth and the treble lacked top extension and air.
 The X12 really sits in between. The bass is leaner than Gungnir but more punchy than the NFB-7. The midrange has more energy than the Gungnir but less so than the NFB-7. The treble is about as extended as the NFB-7 but with no emphasis and about as smooth as the Gungnir, it has more energy and is a bit more revealing than the Gung, but so far I've had no issues with it. No sibilance accentuation unlike the NFB-7, which was the key reason for selling it. The soundstage size is again bigger than the Gung but smaller than NFB-72 Same with detail retrieval. The imaging is still a bit unclear- it seems slightly fuzzy with the X12, compared to the NFB/Gungnir, but the X12 is still burning in, so I'll give it more time. It's not bad by all means, just a bit lacking to my ears right now.
 For ~550$, less than 1/2 the price of the NFB-7 and about 2/3 of the Gungnir... I am really imressed by what the Gustard has accomplished


----------



## LancerFIN

If someone in Europe is going for X20, I am willing to buy their X12


----------



## pippen99

Two week update:  Gustard X12 + Gustard H10 + Audeze LCD-2f.  I have put about 20 actual listening hours on this system in the last week.  As suggested by another member I leave the system turned on when not listening most of the time.  I am using my HP laptop as a source but have not given up on the Pure I20 dock and Ipad but I have not taken the time to compare because I was just trying to get hours on this system giving it time to transform.
  
 WEEELLL as most everybody on this forum said change has come.  In my one week update I said I could hear the promise of good sound in there somewhere.  The bottom end has finally made an appearance.  I would characterize the low end as adequate plus but not great.  The mids have calmed down and become much more coherent.  I think this combo is strongest in the middle frequencys, but the development of a bottom end as tamed the pushed forward character of the mids and made for a more full and rounded sound.  the high frequencys are good.  I doubt my aged ears could expect more from the high end.
  
 I listened to Mark Knopfler's new disc Tracker last night and found out why I got into this in the first place;  Just Magnificent!  Since this is my first system I do not have the sophistication to attribute this or that to a particular unit.  I tried listening to my Ultrasone HFI-2400 cans and just couldn't take it for long.  The bad thing now is I want more!  I'm just not sure where to go from here?


----------



## Chs177

Is anyone can share experience with Gustard H10 + Fostex TH600/Fostex TH900/Denon D7000?
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

The imaging is still a bit unclear- it seems slightly fuzzy with the X12, compared to the NFB/Gungnir, but the X12 is still burning in, so I'll give it more time. It's not bad by all means, just a bit lacking to my ears right now.
[/quote]

Is "it" in the final sentence referring to imaging or the entire dac?


----------



## conquerator2

liu junyuan said:


> The imaging is still a bit unclear- it seems slightly fuzzy with the X12, compared to the NFB/Gungnir, but the X12 is still burning in, so I'll give it more time. It's not bad by all means, just a bit lacking to my ears right now.




Is "it" in the final sentence referring to imaging or the entire dac?[/quote]

Only imaging. Rest is exceptional. Even the imaging is just a notch below. I really, really like this DAC.


----------



## hans030390

One nice thing about the H10 is how much room there is for rolling opamps (even just the fact I can stick my big hands in there without issue). I swapped out the TI 5532s in the back for, well, another set of 5532s. Got some '87 Signetics NE5532AN in there now. Both those and the '82 Philips NE5532s I picked up seem to ever so slightly improve the tone over the TI 5532s, but the Signetics seemed to have better micro-detail and clarity over the Philips. I've read many accounts of people swearing by some of the older 5532 or newer models from various manufacturers.
  
 You may need an extender of sorts, but there's more than enough room that the OPA134s could easily be swapped out for even a discrete opamp. I'm far from an electrical engineer, so I can't speak for the H10's design and how it will handle other types of opamps.
  
 I suppose the fuse could be swapped out too as a cheap experiment, if you believe that makes a difference in sound.
  
 Nice bang for the buck amp if you can score one around $300-350, especially for planars. Even works well with the HD650, though I prefer something like the Valhalla 2 for it ultimately.
  
 I'm curious, though, does anyone else have an H10 that hums a bit if you put your ear up to it? Very subtle...took me a while to notice. Doesn't seem to impact performance.


----------



## conquerator2

Very impressed with the X12. A musical Sabre done right for that price?! Color me happy!


----------



## Lohb

hans030390 said:


> One nice thing about the H10 is how much room there is for rolling opamps (even just the fact I can stick my big hands in there without issue). I swapped out the TI 5532s in the back for, well, another set of 5532s. Got some '87 Signetics NE5532AN in there now. Both those and the '82 Philips NE5532s I picked up seem to ever so slightly improve the tone over the TI 5532s, but the Signetics seemed to have better micro-detail and clarity over the Philips. I've read many accounts of people swearing by some of the older 5532 or newer models from various manufacturers.
> 
> You may need an extender of sorts, but there's more than enough room that the OPA134s could easily be swapped out for even a discrete opamp. I'm far from an electrical engineer, so I can't speak for the H10's design and how it will handle other types of opamps.
> 
> ...


 

 Great, finally some opamp rolling. I re-posted one Korean guys results further back in the thread.


----------



## hans030390

I must have overlooked that.


----------



## Lohb

hans030390 said:


> I must have overlooked that.


----------



## mjock3

conquerator2 said:


> Very impressed with the X12. A musical Sabre done right for that price?! Color me happy!


 
 Has anyone here heard the Twisted Pair Buffalo III DAC? Just wondering how it compares with the X12? I realize it is a DIY endeavor, but would like very much if anyone has heard the 2 DAC's.


----------



## rmp459

I sorta went overboard.
 Going to replace my old D100 Mk.1 with a X12 - ordered it yesterday.
  
 Got a U12 already, H10 coming from massdrop, and picked up an HE-400i.


----------



## conquerator2

Gratz! Should be real good


----------



## stuartmc

rmp459 said:


> I sorta went overboard.
> Going to replace my old D100 Mk.1 with a X12 - ordered it yesterday.
> 
> Got a U12 already, H10 coming from massdrop, and picked up an HE-400i.


 
 Attaboy!  This combination, at its combined price, is what I call "stupid good."  There is genuine synergy and they practically fornicate with the Hifiman phones.  I highly recommend doing the grill and liner mods on the HE-400i. I did them on both the 400i and the 560's and they put the combo over the top for me.


----------



## conquerator2

At least the grill mod for sure  easy and reversible!


----------



## rmp459

conquerator2 said:


> Gratz! Should be real good


 
  
 Thanks - H10 showed up today along with a Niles AXP1, and a IP-managed AC power switch/pdu, which I am using to manage inputs and power of my stack since the power switches are a pain to get to when shelved.
 I really only use my PC, so it makes it really easy to manage.
  

  
  
  
  
 So far the amp has exceeded my expectations for the massdrop price tag when used with my HD 650s, if it gets better with age - I'm probably done upgrading for a while.
 Anything more than 0 gain was too much for what I currently own.
 I will probably knock the gain down on my M-Stage and commit it to IEM duty.
  
 Hope the X12 shows up soon, will keep using my D100 til it does.
  
 Update:  I think i just fell in love my with HD 650s all over again.  This amp is something else.
  
  


stuartmc said:


> Attaboy!  This combination, at its combined price, is what I call "stupid good."  There is genuine synergy and they practically fornicate with the Hifiman phones.  I highly recommend doing the grill and liner mods on the HE-400i. I did them on both the 400i and the 560's and they put the combo over the top for me.


 


conquerator2 said:


> At least the grill mod for sure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I will definitely be trying the grill mod out, I gotta do my reading on these, but thanks for the heads up on how much it improved the sounds for you guys.
 I have been looking for planars for a while, but the price has always put me off.  I felt the weight of the HE-500s would be too much considering how much time i spend in front of a computer at home/work with music on.
 It's been a while since i've upgraded anything so this should be fun.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

rmp459 said:


> Thanks - H10 showed up today along with a Niles AXP1, and a IP-managed AC power switch/pdu, which I am using to manage inputs and power of my stack since the power switches are a pain to get to when shelved.
> I really only use my PC, so it makes it really easy to manage.
> 
> 
> ...




Did yours already arrive from MassDrop? Did they give you a tracking number?


----------



## rmp459

liu junyuan said:


> Did yours already arrive from MassDrop? Did they give you a tracking number?


 
 Yes to both.
 Received an e-mail yesterday saying that it was shipped along with a tracking number, received it today.
  
 Keep in mind I live an hour or two from their distribution warehouse.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

rmp459 said:


> Yes to both.
> Received an e-mail yesterday saying that it was shipped along with a tracking number, received it today.
> 
> Keep in mind I live an hour or two from their distribution warehouse.




Oh okay. Well that makes sense. I am glad you are enjoying the amp.


----------



## auvgeek

stuartmc said:


> Attaboy!  This combination, at its combined price, is what I call "stupid good."  There is genuine synergy and they practically fornicate with the Hifiman phones.


 
 I now have to agree. I've been playing with the LCD-2F and the HE-560 for the past month, and in the last week or so my preference has shifted from the Audeze to the Hifiman. With the HE-560, the drums hit harder, the details are more pronounced, and the vocals remain excellent. Soundstage compared to the LCD is definitely larger, but that's not really a huge concern for me. I love really love the H10+HE-560 pairing, particularly the punchiness of the drums. And keep in mind that they're unmodded—I still want to do the jerg mods (or maybe Bill-P's mods, if he releases them). 
  
 Honestly, I'm not sure why my preferences changed. I've been leaving my setup on all the time, so maybe the H10 just needed some serious burn in and/or warm up? That seems unlikely to me. I switched from spotify extreme to tidal hifi, but that switch seems pretty minimal. Brain burn in then? I dunno. But this combo sounds fantastic to my ears now, where before it sounded a little lean.
  
 The LCD-2F is still a great 'phone, and I probably need to switch back to it for a few solid days of listening to make 100% sure my new impressions aren't going to change yet again!


----------



## stuartmc

auvgeek said:


> But this combo sounds fantastic to my ears now, where before it sounded a little lean.


 
 Yup. During the break-in, warm up, process mine went from a little lean in the low bass and lower midrange, a little edge to the treble and somewhat flattened depth of field, to plenty of bass and midrange bloom, creamy smooth, yet detailed treble and a very deep soundstage.  Many of us have commented on the H10 in particular having an extraordinary break in transformation.  I experienced the same thing, albeit to a lesser extent, with the X12 and U12.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

rmp459 said:


> Thanks - H10 showed up today along with a Niles AXP1, and a IP-managed AC power switch/pdu, which I am using to manage inputs and power of my stack since the power switches are a pain to get to when shelved.
> I really only use my PC, so it makes it really easy to manage.
> 
> 
> ...


 
What gain setting are you using with HD 650, and what is your volume knob at? Thank you!
  
fNevermind. I figured out my problem. I just received the H10 and was thinking something was wrong with it when I had to turn the volume pot to max to listen to my HD 650s. On the back, it was set to balanced input, the cables for which I do not own yet. Be sure to check the back switches when you get yours. I recall this coming up earlier in the thread. Now the volume is back to normal. 
  
 I will refrain from extensive impressions until this has some time to warm up.


----------



## olek

Got my Gustard H10 yesterday, and also was confused with that dip switch 1 - it comes from factory in 'balanced' mode (up) and that messes up sound from unbalanced inputs.
  
 Impressions of unpacking - wow. Solid, heavy, big, looks like business. Nice.
  
 First impressions with hd650? It is good that I am out of quality interconnects, because it would be too low class to hang myself on Best Buy special.
  
 Here are details.
  
 Highs are pretty good, restrained and without any hint of glare, easy on ears - and I like that!
 Lows are extending deep (good), but are very grainy and 'loose'.
 Mids are OK tonality-wise, but are as muddy as lows.
  
 All in all, it does sound better than Audioengine D1 (that one got no extension in bass whatsoever and overall sound is scratchy and 'dry-muddled'), but it is not an achievement to be proud of, and it is a far cry from headphone out jack from Audio-Gd Precision 1 speaker amp. Precision 1 has less bass (just right in my opinion for hd650), but what bass it has is silky, silvery smooth, with no grain at all (both speakers and headphones). Precision 1 also got a bit more prominent highs - they remove hd650's veil a bit, although it can sound not as relaxed as H10 at times.
  
 Contrary to many people here, I feel that (initially) H10 is pretty bassy and warm. If it gets more bass as it burns in, that will be bad news for me. HD650 sound too low with it already.
  
 Now, on the other hand, my old well-worn AD900 are loving tonality of H10. All that extra bass and low mids make them come to life (they are thin and analytical headphone). Also, they have aggressive sound with very quick attack (similar to planars in this respect a bit), and H10 is able to supply current for attack in spades. Sounds good. Paired with Precision 1, they tend to be a bit lean, and that takes away emotional involvement from vocals. Still, even AD900 sound smoother on Precision 1. That smoothness in intoxicating. I want it from H10 too!!!
  
 I can see how this extra bass of H10 can work well with other analytical headphones, like hd800, or k702, or even hd600, but it seems to be too much for hd650. Well, I am NOT a basshead at all, probably it would be right for many others, but I feel that it pushes sound too far from neutral.
  
 This morning, after 18 hours burn in, H10 seems to be a little bit more musical  and less muddy. I do hope it will keep improving since it is not cutting it yet.
  
 And what's up with that super-stiff volume knob? Combined with a smooth (and slippery)  finish, it is not pinnacle of user-friendly design. At least it is big, that is nice, and if it loosens up over time, it should be good.
  
 Stay tuned.


----------



## Utopia

I've had mine for maybe ten days now, and I think I know what you mean. To me the H10 sounds warmer/darker than my Bottlehead Crack and the Audio GD SA-31 I had before (an amp intentionally tuned for a warmish, musical sound signature). I think the sound has gotten a lot more "solid" over the last few days - still pretty warm and dark, but without fuzziness or lost detail, and I'm actually starting to appreciate it a whole lot. Perhaps it's a sound signature that takes a little getting used to (plus some actual burn-in).


----------



## conquerator2

utopia said:


> I've had mine for maybe ten days now, and I think I know what you mean. To me the H10 sounds warmer/darker than my Bottlehead Crack and the *Audio GD SA-31* I had before (an amp intentionally tuned for a warmish, musical sound signature). I think the sound has gotten a lot more "solid" over the last few days - still pretty warm and dark, but without fuzziness or lost detail, and I'm actually starting to appreciate it a whole lot. Perhaps it's a sound signature that takes a little getting used to (plus some actual burn-in).


 
 I have that one. Please report back on how you think how they compare


----------



## swannie007

Olek, I also disliked the volume knob as it was too smooth and narrow for my taste so I replaced it with a large silver one that has a knurled circumference and a nice flange on the back and is somewhat wider than the original knob and a pleasure to use.
Check out the volume knobs available on flea bay and I'm sure you will find one you like. Cheers from Oz.


----------



## Kyno

Interesting, of all my amps, this one definitely had the knob I liked the most. Smooth, and very adjustable sound, wasn't getting better than that for me.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> While waiting for the U12, I received my X12 today.
> So far, impressions are very positive. Great sound, very smooth, especially for a Sabre. Definitely smoother than my previous Sabre DACs. Great details.
> So far so good. Very impressed in the first hour. Will continue to listen


 
  
 Thought you already had the U12 in house?


----------



## sahmen

What's with the pin configuration on the H10 power cord?  It does not seem to be tailored for standard American wall receptors.  I hope I can replace it with one of the standard power cords I have lying around without any harm...  Can I?


----------



## olek

Swannie, thank you for idea, will contemplate it later, although I have to admit that I like the look of original knob, if only it had lighter feel to it.
  
 Kyno, I agree that knob is smooth, but it has... high initial resistance to movement. Once it goes, it goes smoothly, but it takes quite some effort to get it moving 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, after 30 hours of burn in, sound cleaned up quite nicely and switching between Precision 1 and H10 does not depress me any longer. Precision 1 still wins on wet-like smoothness big time, but now H10 has semi-decent sound. Even its warmth is not getting on my nerves anymore - while it is still warmer than Precision 1, and has nice deep extension, bass is now not as bloated, and actually is beneficial on some songs (like Pink Floyd's 'Sheep' from Animals that I am listening to right now).
  
 And to think only that some people do not believe in burn in, and are very confident that it is our 'ear' that is adjusting to equipment.


----------



## pippen99

sahmen said:


> What's with the pin configuration on the H10 power cord?  It does not seem to be tailored for standard American wall receptors.  I hope I can replace it with one of the standard power cords I have lying around without any harm...  Can I?


 

 Mine was good out of the box.  Not quite sure what your problem is.
  
 I have had my combo(X12 + H10 + LCD-2f) for about three weeks now.  It took about 10 days for a change to show up.  I hope I haven't plateaued because I still find this combo to be bass lite.  With really good recordings I hear what I was expecting, great sound.  I listen mostly to Classic Rock and this combo has revealed some of my favorite songs to be really crappy recordings.  I find this combo to be very good with acoustic instruments and spare arrangements and solo vocals.  The more complex the instrumentation and arrangement leads to confusion and muddiness.
  
 I originally was shipped by the seller an X12 and a U12 instead of the H10.  He offered to let me keep the U12 at a discount but as I was going to use an Idock as source I didn't see a need or reason to keep it.  I go back and forth between my HP laptop and the Idock now. Since the X12 and U12 have the same XMOS digital processing unit I still am not clear on the purpose of the U12.  Furthermore the articles and posts I have read only left me more confused.  Should I have kept the U12 and can someone explain to a rookie what  the purpose of a USB interface is.


----------



## sahmen

pippen99 said:


> Mine was good out of the box.  Not quite sure what your problem is.
> 
> I have had my combo(X12 + H10 + LCD-2f) for about three weeks now.  It took about 10 days for a change to show up.  I hope I haven't plateaued because I still find this combo to be bass lite.  With really good recordings I hear what I was expecting, great sound.  I listen mostly to Classic Rock and this combo has revealed some of my favorite songs to be really crappy recordings.  I find this combo to be very good with acoustic instruments and spare arrangements and solo vocals.  The more complex the instrumentation and arrangement leads to confusion and muddiness.
> 
> I originally was shipped by the seller an X12 and a U12 instead of the H10.  He offered to let me keep the U12 at a discount but as I was going to use an Idock as source I didn't see a need or reason to keep it.  I go back and forth between my HP laptop and the Idock now. Since the X12 and U12 have the same XMOS digital processing unit I still am not clear on the purpose of the U12.  Furthermore the articles and posts I have read only left me more confused.  Should I have kept the U12 and can someone explain to a rookie what  the purpose of a USB interface is.


 
  
 Well, the power cord that arrived with my drop has a power plug which looks like this, and I believe this type is common in Australia:
  
 My plug is shaped exactly like the one in the image, although it is black


----------



## Liu Junyuan

sahmen said:


> Well, the power cord that arrived with my drop has a power plug which looks like this, and I believe this type is common in Australia:
> 
> 
> My plug is shaped exactly like the one in the image, although it is black


 

That is a mistake on their part. Those are also used in China. Sorry to hear...


----------



## conquerator2

liu junyuan said:


> That is a mistake on their part. Those are also used in China. Sorry to hear...


 
 Yup, received those with both my X12 and U12. I also received an adapter that does have the correct socket configuration but cannot be used with the sockets because it has a weird shape... LOL.
 Anyway, I just sourced a cheap power cable myself, no biggie


----------



## Liu Junyuan

conquerator2 said:


> Yup, received those with both my X12 and U12. I also received an adapter that does have the correct socket configuration but cannot be used with the sockets because it has a weird shape... LOL.
> Anyway, I just sourced a cheap power cable myself, no biggie




Interesting. How are you still liking the X12? I am refusing to allow myself to post on impressions of the amp until I use it more, though I have opinions already. I am comparing it with my rather modest collection of amps and trying to decide which headphones it excels better with.


----------



## conquerator2

liu junyuan said:


> Interesting. How are you still liking the X12? I am refusing to allow myself to post on impressions of the amp until I use it more, though I have opinions already. I am comparing it with my rather modest collection of amps and trying to decide which headphones it excels better with.


 
 The tonality is still very good IMO. The imaging and soundstage/clarity improved a lot after a few hours IMO.
 The U12, which I got yesterday, is sounding very closed in atm and I expect it to open up just like the X12 did.
 I might get a good deal on a nice vintage DAC though, and the X12 might be departing sooner than I thought [though it is really good... Probably the most natural and balanced DAC/Sabre I've heard].
 I'll have more to share tomorrow. But the X12 would be a great recommendation for anyone who wants to get a taste of 'nice' Sabre for relatively cheap.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Thought you already had the U12 in house?


 
 I did. It went back for replacement because it was acting up. The 2nd unit has been burning in throughout yesterday and today and so far it's been flawless [touches wood]


----------



## sahmen

liu junyuan said:


> That is a mistake on their part. Those are also used in China. Sorry to hear...


 
  
  


conquerator2 said:


> Yup, received those with both my X12 and U12. I also received an adapter that does have the correct socket configuration but cannot be used with the sockets because it has a weird shape... LOL.
> Anyway, I just sourced a cheap power cable myself, no biggie


 
 It's great to hear I can replace that with one of my own power cords lying around here. I could not tell whether the wrong power cord was also a sign of wrong voltage requirements, since the drop did not come with a manual.


----------



## stuartmc

sahmen said:


> It's great to hear I can replace that with one of my own power cords lying around here. I could not tell whether the wrong power cord was also a sign of wrong voltage requirements, since the drop did not come with a manual.




It's pretty easy to change the voltage once you get the lid off. There is single switch for 110/220 next to the transformer.

You should replace the stock power cord with an aftermarket one anyways. The H10 has enough transparency to easily hear the difference. I tried six different cords I had on hand, before settling on the Analysis-plus power oval.


----------



## sahmen

stuartmc said:


> It's pretty easy to change the voltage once you get the lid off. There is single switch for 110/220 next to the transformer.
> 
> You should replace the stock power cord with an aftermarket one anyways. The H10 has enough transparency to easily hear the difference. I tried six different cords I had on hand, before settling on the Analysis-plus power oval.


 
 I just looked at the back of the unit, and it has a 115 volts DC sticker underneath the power plug outlet, so I guess that resolves the issue of voltage requirements.  I appreciate the suggestion of an aftermarket cable, however, the analysis-plus power oval seems rather heftily priced for my budget at the moment.  I shall have to go generic for now, until things improve quite a bit.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > Thought you already had the U12 in house?
> ...


 
  
 Yes, I remember it acting up, but thought you had got it resolved 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Bummer though. I ended up selling mine.
  
  
 Maybe you should also do some sort of headphone/audio ritual. Dancing around a fire sacrificing to the audio gods. Hey! this sounds like the way to start a cable company. "burned in cables" - literally.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Yes, I remember it acting up, but thought you had got it resolved
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That sucks... Well, I'll be kinda playin' with fire soon... Hopefully I'll be in luck


----------



## Liu Junyuan

elwappo99 said:


> Yes, I remember it acting up, but thought you had got it resolved  . Bummer though. I ended up selling mine.
> 
> 
> Maybe you should also do some sort of headphone/audio ritual. Dancing around a fire sacrificing to the audio gods. Hey! this sounds like the way to start a cable company. "burned in cables" - literally.




Why did you sell it? Just curious...


----------



## elwappo99

liu junyuan said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I remember it acting up, but thought you had got it resolved
> ...


 
  
 I guess I had some pretty high hopes for it. I always heard that XMOS is a far superior chip, and the people in the U12 thread hyped it up like it was some sort of amazing device and was really a step up in the USB/COAX conversion technology.  It's an okay unit for the price, but not some miracle device. I compared it to an older Audio-GD reference 3 (USB/COAX converter) feeding both my Reference 1 and emotiva DC-1 and I found it to be harsh up top, not as detailed and somewhat grainy in the middle.  I just chalked it up to another purchase mistake due to following head-fi hype.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> I guess I had some pretty high hopes for it. I always heard that XMOS is a far superior chip, and the people in the U12 thread hyped it up like it was some sort of amazing device and was really a step up in the USB/COAX conversion technology.  It's an okay unit for the price, but not some miracle device. I compared it to an older Audio-GD reference 3 (USB/COAX converter) feeding both my Reference 1 and emotiva DC-1 and I found it to be harsh up top, not as detailed and somewhat grainy in the middle.  I just chalked it up to another purchase mistake due to following head-fi hype.


 
 Hmmm... interesting. I found it to smooth out over the hours but I guess IMMV. It too is sounding a bit abrasive and closed vs my previous 'malfunctioning' one. Will get better I hope...
  found it comparatively smoother than my current DI-V2014 too.
 I'd place both of them on similar footing, but they're on the opposite sides of the spectrum.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I had some pretty high hopes for it. I always heard that XMOS is a far superior chip, and the people in the U12 thread hyped it up like it was some sort of amazing device and was really a step up in the USB/COAX conversion technology.  It's an okay unit for the price, but not some miracle device. I compared it to an older Audio-GD reference 3 (USB/COAX converter) feeding both my Reference 1 and emotiva DC-1 and I found it to be harsh up top, not as detailed and somewhat grainy in the middle.  I just chalked it up to another purchase mistake due to following head-fi hype.
> ...


 
  
 Well, I hope so too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I had mine left on 24/7 for about 2 months, FWIW. I never had any software malfunction with it, so that part was nice.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Well, I hope so too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, so far so good too for me as far as that goes... 
 Anyway, a slight rant - Kingwa now offers the DI with a bigger R-Core, vs the previous smaller sealed one... He told me there's not much difference if at all, but I still feel a bit cheated as an early adopter. I asked him for it, but he seems reluctant to send it my way... Though that I understand 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, I'll have more to share tomorrow.
 Cheers


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I am trying to withhold a post on this headamp until I can acquire balanced input cables, but for now I will say the H10 is an impressive achievement indeed. Detail retrieval surpasses my Lyr with Russian tubes; I am hearing sounds in Autechre and hidden voices mastered and layered in Boards of Canada Geogaddi that my Lyr either suppressed or concealed; I have listened to these albums hundreds of times easily.

More later. 

P.S. Oh and soundstage height and width is exceptional but Im still waiting before drawing conclusions regarding depth.


----------



## lukeap69

liu junyuan said:


> I am trying to withhold a post on this headamp until I can acquire balanced input cables, but for now I will say the H10 is an impressive achievement indeed. Detail retrieval surpasses my Lyr with Russian tubes; I am hearing sounds in Autechre and hidden voices mastered in Boards of Canada Geogaddi that my Lyr either surprised or concealed; I have listens to these bums hundreds of times easily.
> 
> More later.
> 
> P.S. Oh and soundstage height and width is exceptional but am Im still waiting before drawing conclusions regarding depth.



How do you find the bass of H10 compared to the Lyr?


----------



## Lohb

liu junyuan said:


> I am hearing sounds in Autechre and hidden voices mastered and layered in Boards of Canada Geogaddi that my Lyr either suppressed or concealed; I have listened to these albums hundreds of times easily.


 
 You're talking my musical language....just holding off for balanced H20(?) pricing first....


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lukeap69 said:


> How do you find the bass of H10 compared to the Lyr?




I was just thinking of that now. I cannot say yet for sure, but I will report back later. I am trying to be really cautious because I loathe hyperbole on these forums. I will say that I was just thinking before I read your post that bass is monstrous on my HE-500s with gain set to +6. It was actually overpowering on +12, which is where I find the sweet spot for my Senns. 

The answer is complicated because a) it highly depends on the tube; Amperex Orange Globes convey a deeper bass than my other tubs, for instance and b) even more crucially, my DAC is known for its bass slam; it even makes the O2 communicate a strong bass when called for. Separating DAC from amp is always a tricky problem, but based on my two other DACs, this DAC conveys a strong bass presence. One thing to keep in mind about the Lyr is that it can be quite punchy due to its extraordinary current output, and it is highly dynamic. One aspect of comparison between the amps I am still trying to determine is slam versus boomy and the dynamic range. Lyr is no slouch with dynamics especially with dynamic classical recordings. Gungnir is a highly dynamic DAC as well. For now, I am tempted to say Lyr tops H10 in terms of dynamic range, but I believe I need to wait for my xlr input cable to know for sure. Its also crucial to remember that Lyr puts out more current than most headamps, which is why I am being more liberal with the gain settings on the H10. 

Another point I am trying to listen for is whether, as some have claimed here and elsewhere, the H10 becomes muddy when music becomes complex. I still do not know the answer to that yet but I am listening for it. I do know that schitty tubes on my Lyr completely bungle complex passages versus more well engineered ones. This is an important criteria for me because I think any amp well designed can do simple passages well.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lohb said:


> You're talking my musical language....just holding off for balanced H20(?) pricing first....




Ah yes. Well that will not be until third quarter according to @ansi. The x20 will be released sooner.


----------



## auvgeek

liu junyuan said:


> I was just thinking of that now. I cannot say yet for sure, but I will report back later. I am trying to be really cautious because I loathe hyperbole on these forums. I will say that I was just thinking before I read your post that bass is monstrous on my HE-500s with gain set to +6. It was actually overpowering on +12, which is where I find the sweet spot for my Senns.


 
 Are you saying you can hear a difference in the bass presence depending on the gain? Because I was under the impression that the gain changed only the volume.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

auvgeek said:


> Are you saying you can hear a difference in the bass presence depending on the gain? Because I was under the impression that the gain changed only the volume.




Yes.

Edit: In the sense that the voltage is increased. But I am really trying to be careful hear TAKE ALL OF MY OBSERVATIONS with a grain of salt. I have lived with the Lyr for over a year. I have had this for two days.


----------



## lukeap69

Thanks Liu. I'll be waiting for your further impressions. Yeah, 2 days is still very early for the H10. It will just get better. 

I too use Amperex OG on my Lyr 2 and the difference in bass is quite noticeable.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lukeap69 said:


> Thanks Liu. I'll be waiting for your further impressions. Yeah, 2 days is still very early for the H10. It will just get better.
> 
> I too use Amperex OG on my Lyr 2 and the difference in bass is quite noticeable.




Oh interesting. So you also own a Lyr. Do you happen to have any honest observations on the contrast between Lyr and H10?


----------



## Feel-Like-Ninja

Just ordered my H10 ! I'm incredibly excited, seeing as how it's my first proper amp, after using the fiio E10 for nearly a year with my HD650s. Will definitely make some first impressions once I get it. By the way, how long does it take to arrive normally? I purchased mine through eBay from 'vintageaudio' seller.


----------



## bavinck

feel-like-ninja said:


> Just ordered my H10 ! I'm incredibly excited, seeing as how it's my first proper amp, after using the fiio E10 for nearly a year with my HD650s. Will definitely make some first impressions once I get it. By the way, how long does it take to arrive normally? I purchased mine through eBay from 'vintageaudio' seller.



I bout mine from the same seller about 3 weeks ago, the shipping estimate they supplied me ends this coming week. When you bought it they will have supplied you with a shipping estimate range. 

I'm looking forward to it to. Just got a used pair of he500s,and now I need to decide if I upgrade my modi 1 to the x12,or an audio Gd balanced Dac, or something else someone tells me works super well with the h10 and orthos.


----------



## conquerator2

My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
 Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like I am used to. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound stacked or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
 Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent, quite detailed DAC, especially considering the tonality.


----------



## bavinck

conquerator2 said:


> My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
> Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound huddled together or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
> Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent DAC.



In your opinion, what would be a better dac with the h10? Details and layering are very important for the kind of music I listen to.


----------



## conquerator2

bavinck said:


> In your opinion, what would be a better dac with the h10? Details and layering are very important for the kind of music I listen to.


 
 I am not sure what to recommend, sorry. Maybe some of the audio-gd offerings. Their Sabres sound very detailed, especially the NFB-7, which I owned.
 The X12 still gets the recommendation from me if you want a smooth and musical sound.


----------



## bavinck

I heard a nasty rumour that some are finding that the h10 does not handle complex music well. Do you guys here who are using the h10 find that to be true?


----------



## Arnotts

conquerator2 said:


> My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
> Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like I am used to. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound stacked or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
> Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent, quite detailed DAC, especially considering the tonality.


 

 I never felt that imaging was unnatural or off in any way on the LCD-X's, HD800's or LCD-2F's when combined with the H10 + X12 stack.
  
 It's difficult to gauge how something will sound from subjective impressions, but I'd like to add the opinion that I have no issues with the imaging/layering with the H10 + X12. It's also possible that I have not heard even BETTER DACs, but either way I do not feel the need to upgrade anymore.
  
 As you said, YMMV .
  
@bavinck what kind of music would you consider "complex"? I've never felt this way about the H10.


----------



## lukeap69

liu junyuan said:


> Oh interesting. So you also own a Lyr. Do you happen to have any honest observations on the contrast between Lyr and H10?




Yes, many pages back.


----------



## stuartmc

bavinck said:


> I heard a nasty rumour that some are finding that the h10 does not handle complex music well. Do you guys here who are using the h10 find that to be true?




If you were to read through the entire 68 pages of this thread (I'm amazed that we have carried on this long) you won't find any such concern or complaint, except for one comment by a very recent contributor. I think it is quite safe to say that the H10 has no such problem.

There are many variables at play that could give someone this impression. My point is that it is not something inherent to the H10.


----------



## pippen99

stuartmc said:


> If you were to read through the entire 68 pages of this thread (I'm amazed that we have carried on this long) you won't find any such concern or complaint, except for one comment by a very recent contributor. I think it is quite safe to say that the H10 has no such problem.
> 
> There are many variables at play that could give someone this impression. My point is that it is not something inherent to the H10.


 

 I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in. 


conquerator2 said:


> My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
> Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like I am used to. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound stacked or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
> Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent, quite detailed DAC, especially considering the tonality.


 

 Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.
  
 Again I would point out that I have stated my limitations including suspect source material and hearing loss.  I am just looking for answers and help!


----------



## bavinck

pippen99 said:


> I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in.
> 
> 
> Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.
> ...



OK then, thanks for the clarification. What you describe about the Beatles and doors recording sound typically for older recording and has not (ime) to do with your amp or dac. 

Thanks for all the help squashing this rumour. For complex music I am primarily refering to progressive and folk metal that can get extremely complex, much life classical music can. Sounds like the h10 will do me well.


----------



## pippen99

bavinck said:


> OK then, thanks for the clarification. What you describe about the Beatles and doors recording sound typically for older recording and has not (ime) to do with your amp or dac.
> 
> Thanks for all the help squashing this rumour. For complex music I am primarily refering to progressive and folk metal that can get extremely complex, much life classical music can. Sounds like the h10 will do me well.


 

 I may have over clarified.  What I described is more an aside or in addition to what I have been trying to relate. (Sigh) The limitations of trying to portray sound via the printed word!
 A simple arrangement such as folk, perhaps a piano and a guitar and vocals, or any four piece arrangement with vocals:  I can identify each instrument clearly.  There is separation so each instrument including vocal is clear, strong and vibrant. On the other hand the best description of what I hear is to use the example of Journey or ELO.  I seem to lose the bottom end and everything else is a large globular mass in the middle.  Nothing stands out, nothing is distinctive.  Everything seems to condense into mediocrity. 
  
 Once again "limitations" whether they be my description, the equipment, or the source material.  I just don't know.


----------



## auvgeek

pippen99 said:


> I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in.
> 
> Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.


 
 That's the mastering. I just listened to The Doors "Light My Fire" on Tidal and Spotify. The drums are entirely on the left channel and the organ is entirely on the right. It's just the way it was recorded. Don't blame the equipment for reproducing the mastering accurately.


----------



## pippen99

auvgeek said:


> That's the mastering. I just listened to The Doors "Light My Fire" on Tidal and Spotify. The drums are entirely on the left channel and the organ is entirely on the right. It's just the way it was recorded. Don't blame the equipment for reproducing the mastering accurately.


 

 please read the last line of the post immediately preceding yours.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

conquerator2 said:


> My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
> Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like I am used to. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound stacked or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
> Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent, quite detailed DAC, especially considering the tonality.




Thank you. Quite honest analysis indeed. Unfortunately, despite your intent, that is an ultimately damning critique for my preferences as well, so I will stick with Gungnir.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

arnotts said:


> I never felt that imaging was unnatural or off in any way on the LCD-X's, HD800's or LCD-2F's when combined with the H10 + X12 stack.
> 
> It's difficult to gauge how something will sound from subjective impressions, but I'd like to add the opinion that I have no issues with the imaging/layering with the H10 + X12. It's also possible that I have not heard even BETTER DACs, but either way I do not feel the need to upgrade anymore.
> 
> ...




Thanks for your useful counterpoint .


----------



## Liu Junyuan

stuartmc said:


> If you were to read through the entire 68 pages of this thread (I'm amazed that we have carried on this long) you won't find any such concern or complaint, except for one comment by a very recent contributor. I think it is quite safe to say that the H10 has no such problem.
> 
> There are many variables at play that could give someone this impression. My point is that it is not something inherent to the H10.




I have read through the thread entirely and am also suspicious of this claim, but I remain ultimately undecided at this point. I really wish I had access to another amp like Meier Audio Classic, Lake People G109, or V200, all of which I would bet could handle anything thrown at them with ease.


----------



## olek

Wow, this room is boiling with activity!
  
 Here are my 2 cents.
  
 This morning I found that H10 passes my 'happy feet' test - my feet try to dance under the table as I listen to music while browsing. It also started to pass my 'distraction test' - from time to time I just can't go on reading and have to close my eyes and listen. Both are really good thing. The thing about me, is that my conscious ability to analyze sound is not so great (and bad hearing damage does not help either), but subconscious sound 'parsing' is pretty good.
  
 Also I feel that sound moved farther away from my head - an awkward way to say that soundstage has improved.
  
 I also came to realization than H10's sound signature is slightly warm, with gentle (not rolled off!) treble, still very close to neutral, close enough to be beyond my ability to judge it. I also realized that all that extra 'liquid' smoothness I hear from Precision 1 is likely kind of colouration, audio-gd's house sound, just lush enough to make a difference. At this point I like them both, with H10 winning on detail, and Precision 1 having more 'pleasant', analog/tubey sound (while being a tiniest bit brighter).
  
 I also agree with Liu that gain switches seem to tweak sound a little bit. It is fairly small difference, but on -12 sound becomes 'lighter' and more relaxed, and on +12 it gets more 'weighty' and aggressive. At least that is the way it seems to my (very imprecise) ears.
  
 All in all, it sounds quite nice to me now! And if one can expect more improvement after 200-300 hours of burn in - even better!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in.
> 
> 
> Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.
> ...




I know that you qualified your limited experience, but a claim like this is going to scare everyone off (which is absolutely fine, if it is indeed truly attributable to the gear). 

Could you by chance share with me which recording/mastering you are listening to and a specific Beatles song so that I can try to help determine whether this is true? I will be able to isolate amps to at least see if this is a property inherent to the H10 ( I do not own the X12). 

Also, would it be possible for you at some point to use your other system to see whether you are in fact hearing this from the amp or DAC? What is your other system by the way？ 

Thanks. I am just trying to help out because no one in their right mind would be able to ignore your sudden lack of enjoyment in these famous songs.


----------



## Arnotts

pippen99 said:


> please read the last line of the post immediately preceding yours.


 

 http://www.head-fi.org/t/422657/the-beatles-mono-vs-stereo <--- read David Mahler's post
  
 The sound you hear is just poorly mixed/mastered stereo, from a time when mono was preferred.


----------



## conquerator2

I want to clarify my post a bit - it is only my subjective experience so do not take it for granted or inherent to the DAC. It is the single aspect that I could criticize...
I think for the money overall this DAC is an easy bargain. I think it did many things better than my Gungnir and NFB7.
It was also an impulsive sale that was supposed to fund something... Did not work out unfortunately. So I am on a lookout for a DAC again.
Otherwise, I was thinking about keeping the X12 for a very long time... Could have happily lived with it


----------



## bavinck

conquerator2 said:


> I want to clarify my post a bit - it is only my subjective experience so do not take it for granted or inherent to the DAC. It is the single aspect that I could criticize...
> I think for the money overall this DAC is an easy bargain. I think it did many things better than my Gungnir and NFB7.
> It was also an impulsive sale that was supposed to fund something... Did not work out unfortunately. So I am on a lookout for a DAC again.
> Otherwise, I was thinking about keeping the X12 for a very long time... Could have happily lived with it



Thanks for this. I am seriously considering getting the x12. X12 is kind of the most money I would want to out into a dac right now.


----------



## stuartmc

liu junyuan said:


> I have read through the thread entirely and am also suspicious of this claim, but I remain ultimately undecided at this point. I really wish I had access to another amp like Meier Audio Classic, Lake People G109, or V200, all of which I would bet could handle anything thrown at them with ease.



One of our original Gustard swabbies, Flysweep, had the Violectric V200 and in his opinion, the H10 was the superior amplifier.  I have many amps in my listening room, accumulated from many years of reviewing and am very well acquainted with the idiosyncrasies of amplifiers of nearly every conceivable topology.  These are all loudspeaker amplifiers, so how this experience correlates to headphone amplifiers is certainly debatable, but playing the same music on my big rig and then on my headphone system (Rega Apollo R > X12 >H10 > HE-560) reveals no weakness in the latter system's ability to sort out complex passages.  In fact, I am rather shocked by how well this affordable headphone rig performs. So much so, that I have rejoined my old publication and am now devoting all of my attention to headphone gear.  By the way, the only other dedicated headphone amplifier I had on hand to compare to was the Ifi Ican.  That amplifier is fairly well regarded around here and the H10 bested it in nearly every parameter I can think of. It wasn't even close.

It sure is difficult to make a purchase decision without having the product in your hands and the benefit of an extended listening session.  I had to do that with the H10, but I trusted the opinions of Flysweep  and others here who had more experience with headphone gear than I did.  We all have different tastes and reviews are highly subjective, so I actually looked up some of Flysweep's commentaries/reviews of gear that I was familiar with and determined that he heard things quite similar to the way I do.   That gave me confidence to pull the trigger on the H10 and I am very glad that I did. I wish you well in your search and we are a friendly bunch including chaps like Mike (zilchOmd) who hasn't purchased any Gustard gear (yet, lol).


----------



## pippen99

arnotts said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/422657/the-beatles-mono-vs-stereo <--- read David Mahler's post
> 
> The sound you hear is just poorly mixed/mastered stereo, from a time when mono was preferred.


 

 I believe you are correct in this assessment.  Good post by David Mahler.  However this means I have to wax philosophical for a moment.  In participating in this thread and reading other threads on Head-fi I have the impression that many participants regard the equipment as an end in itself.  Very many of you own multiple pieces of equipment, sell and trade on a regular basis comparing and looking for different performance and sound. 
  
 I come to this hobby from an apparently different perspective(not being judgemental  just different).  Headphones have been my first choice for listening for 40 years and now having the time(retirement in a few months) and the money( pretty much set up for retirement) I wanted to upgrade my listening experience.  For me the equipment is a means to an end.  The end being to listen to the music I grew up with, saw performed live( over 400 concerts attended) and prefer to this day reproduced as well as it can be.  I will probably never have more than 2 similar pieces of equipment on hand at the same time and the unit being replaced will be for sale.
  
 My participation on this thread has not to bash this equipment but to determine if what I am hearing is equipment related, source related, or between my ears related.  I cannot and will not change my musical preferences so the equipment can shine.  The equipment has to make my music shine and if it cannot(as it has proven on several important tracks to me)then it is not for me. 
  
 My greatest concern now is no number of equipment changes or money spent is capable of making the music I prefer better.


----------



## stuartmc

conquerator2 said:


> My X12 has been sold to a lucky sailor. I still think it is a worthy recommendation for anyone looking for a smooth and musical Sabre in that price range. I did not sell it because I wasn't happy with it but for other reasons.
> Anyway, if there is one quibble that I want to mention, then it is imaging/layering. To my ears, the X12 could image and layer instruments/voices in a strange manner, putting them closer together than I'd like I am used to. As in the center instruments and leading vocals sound big and meaty but the backing vocals and further placed instruments could sound stacked or placed in a weird way. IMO. YMMV.
> Only quibble, Otherwise an excellent, quite detailed DAC, especially considering the tonality.


 
 Capt. Guinea Pig had a little different experience with the X12.  I posted about this way back when.  I experienced some break in woes with the X12, but it wasn't as dramatic as the H10. There were only minor issues with bass extension and some treble edge that cleared up after about 40 hours.  For me, anyway, there was never a problem with weird imaging.  The soundstage was only slightly constricted during the break in period and then it opened up nicely.  After I got things sorted out and had plenty of burn in time, I compared the X12 to the Aune S16, an old school Belle Canto DAC and the Rega Apollo R.  All of these do soundstage/imaging quite well and to my ears, the X12 was close to the best of them in this regard. That best one being the Aune S16.  However, the X12 kicked the Aune's butt in tonality and macro-dynamics.


----------



## stuartmc

pippen99 said:


> My participation on this thread has not to bash this equipment but to determine if what I am hearing is equipment related, source related, or between my ears related.  I cannot and will not change my musical preferences so the equipment can shine.  The equipment has to make my music shine and if it cannot(as it has proven on several important tracks to me)then it is not for me.
> 
> My greatest concern now is no number of equipment changes or money spent is capable of making the music I prefer better.


 
 Ahh, Mr. Pippen99, you have hit on one of the most frustrating aspects of high-end audio.  By the way, congratulations on your retirement. I'm getting close, but you know what they say, Lawyers never really retire, they just lose their appeal!   The frustration I speak of is the inability to truly enjoy some wonderful music because the recordings are utter crap.  Highly resolving gear will unmask all kinds of nastiness that hitherto went unnoticed.  It's a case where ignorance was bliss, but now the unvarnished truth spoils it.   I have listened to, and reviewed, so many outstanding recordings played on top of the line gear, that I really know what the medium is capable of, particularly in the reach out and touch it, soundstage/imaging aspect.  It's a different kind of bliss that is quite addicting, but for me, it was almost like Neo chosing the red or blue pill. Once I took the red pill, there was no going back to the comfort of the Matrix construct.  This phenomenon is precisely why many audiophiles highly prize certain recordings that might not have the best music, but are spectacularly mixed and mastered.  Unfortunately, there aren't all that many recordings that have it all, great music AND great sound. When you find them, you will have what we call an "eargasm." For me, the eargasm is worth my disappointment with some of the records I used to love.


----------



## pippen99

Thank you for your understanding and sympathy.  This system was intended to be an entry into this world, a starting point to point the way forward towards a topend system to play my music the way I thought it could be played.  Now I'm not sure there is a way forward.  You are correct.  There is most likely no going back.  But I wonder if as I move up the audio food chain will even more of my favorite music be revealed as lacking.  Guess I'll just play those tracks in the car!


----------



## auvgeek

pippen99 said:


> Thank you for your understanding and sympathy.  This system was intended to be an entry into this world, a starting point to point the way forward towards a topend system to play my music the way I thought it could be played.  Now I'm not sure there is a way forward.  You are correct.  There is most likely no going back.  But I wonder if as I move up the audio food chain will even more of my favorite music be revealed as lacking.  Guess I'll just play those tracks in the car!


 

 Have you found any tracks of "your music" that you think are just stunning on your Gustard stack?
  
 PS. I know almost nothing about speakers, but you may have more luck with them in your audio quest.


----------



## stuartmc

Ha ha...That's exactly what I do. I play everything in the car!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I have several recordings that end up splitting voices from instruments into separate channels, and those tend to be older ones. I heard this effect on my dad's Oppo HA-1 in addition to my gear. I recall this same thing on some of The Doors stuff on my hard drive, but I will have to wait until I can check later. 

Some of the older blues recordings with Miles Davis can also sound pretty shoddy. Yeah, for those recordings, it is best to play them on a less technical setup. Honestly, at least you do not own the HD 800s, which make terrible recordings entirely unenjoyable. 

Another thing to keep in mind is the way headphones separate sounds. For instance, HE 500 is fairly well known to produce a wall-of-sound effect by which everything is synthesized into a cohesive whole. By contrast, my AKGs (moreso with the Q701) analyze (that is, separate) the sound into its component parts, presenting an entirely different effect than HE 500's tendency toward synthesis. HE-560, since it is a reference headphone, is much better at separating out component parts but not to the extreme of an AKG or HD 800. I know because I listened to my dad's HE-560 for two weeks. By the way, I agree that HE-560 would probably synergize quite well with the H10's warmer signature (the same for HD 600 and I suspect a Beyer DT 880). 

Without having heard the LCD-2, I have no clue how it presents and images sound; is it more synthetic or analytic? I am tempted to say it will lean more toward the HE-500 effect than the AKG based on my readings of its organic, lush signature. Fazor might change all of this of course. 

Despite the importance of the phone, though, these traits of course exist with other gear in the chain (especially the DAC?). Sabre probably tends more toward analysis, but since X12 has been called "musical" and "natural", I wonder if it combines the best of both? With that said, think the phone carries the largest impact; an HD 800 will always be analytic. So people try to pair it with tubes and and non-sabre DACs. 

Sorry for the long-winded post!


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> I have several recordings that end up splitting voices from instruments into separate channels, and those tend to be older ones. I heard this effect on my dad's Oppo HA-1 in addition to my gear. I recall this same thing on some of The Doors stuff on my hard drive, but I will have to wait until I can check later.
> 
> Some of the older blues recordings with Miles Davis can also sound pretty shoddy. Yeah, for those recordings, it is best to play them on a less technical setup. Honestly, at least you do not own the HD 800s, which make terrible recordings entirely unenjoyable.
> 
> ...




Thabk you so much! Just moved from an akg k7xx to a hifiman he500, and you explained exactly what I am noticing as a difference but have been unable to describe. The he500 does indeed take some time to get used to compared to k7xx as everything is being blended together, and yet detail is still very present. It is very strange to my ears.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Thabk you so much! Just moved from an akg k7xx to a hifiman he500, and you explained exactly what I am noticing as a difference but have been unable to describe. The he500 does indeed take some time to get used to compared to k7xx as everything is being blended together, and yet detail is still very present. It is very strange to my ears.




Well that is why I keep both. HE-500 is the clear winner in pure technicality, though. But AKGs also scale quite well, and they are so utterly picky with upstream gear, kind of like HD 800 but to a lesser extent. For instance, I dont know what it is about the Lyr that works so well with the K7xx, but the synergy is so good that it outshines my other phones on that particular amp while sounding terrible on the O2 (harsh, brittle, lifeless). Actually, I am curious whether this H10 can beat out the Lyr's effortless grace with K7xx. 

As to the wall-of-sound effect, I believe it has something to so with the HE-500 voice coil, but this is where I need to do more research.


----------



## pippen99

auvgeek said:


> Have you found any tracks of "your music" that you think are just stunning on your Gustard stack?
> 
> PS. I know almost nothing about speakers, but you may have more luck with them in your audio quest.


 

 My latest purchase was Mark Knopfler's newest Tracker.  It was amazing and that is when I began to suspect that my musical choices were not optimal for a hi-fi headphone system.  As mentioned in Dave Mahler's post on the Beatles music Abbey Road and The White Album have some surprisingly musical tracks such as Come Together and Birthday.  Very well recorded.
  
 I had hoped, maybe even expected that this headphone system would provide superior sound to my big system but my ADS l810's with a Yamaha sub are really better.


----------



## pippen99

liu junyuan said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is the way headphones separate sounds.


 
 I just went and listened to Light My Fire using the HFI-2400s.  The LCD-2f does contribute some to the separation.  With the LCD-2f Manzarek sounds two rooms away.  With the HFI-2400s Manzarek and Densmore are on opposite sides of the same room or at least just inside the door of the next room.  I don't if know if this is dynamic vs planar difference or a dollar difference.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> I just went and listened to Light My Fire using the HFI-2400s.  The LCD-2f does contribute some to the separation.  With the LCD-2f Manzarek sounds two rooms away.  With the HFI-2400s Manzarek and Densmore are on opposite sides of the same room or at least just inside the door of the next room.  I don't if know if this is dynamic vs planar difference or a dollar difference.




Okay cool. It is not necessarily a dollar difference so much as the character of the driver. And yeah a planar always is different than a dynamic presentation. LCD 2F is a nice phone!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> My latest purchase was Mark Knopfler's newest Tracker.  It was amazing and that is when I began to suspect that my musical choices were not optimal for a hi-fi headphone system.  As mentioned in Dave Mahler's post on the Beatles music Abbey Road and The White Album have some surprisingly musical tracks such as Come Together and Birthday.  Very well recorded.
> 
> I had hoped, maybe even expected that this headphone system would provide superior sound to my big system but my ADS l810's with a Yamaha sub are really better.




It sounds like you are into classical rock. I have a modest collection of such recordings on my HDD. Most of Pink Floyd is very well recorded, especially Dark Side and Wish You Were Here. Rush did not take the cheap way out either.


----------



## pippen99

liu junyuan said:


> It sounds like you are into classical rock. I have a modest collection of such recordings on my HDD. Most of Pink Floyd is very well recorded, especially Dark Side and Wish You Were Here. Rush did not take the cheap way out either.


 

 Classic rock is my music of choice.  Pink Floyd is good. Prefer Yes to Rush, well recorded.  Led Zeppelin is complete trash, hopelessly compressed.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> Well that is why I keep both. HE-500 is the clear winner in pure technicality, though. But AKGs also scale quite well, and they are so utterly picky with upstream gear, kind of like HD 800 but to a lesser extent. For instance, I dont know what it is about the Lyr that works so well with the K7xx, but the synergy is so good that it outshines my other phones on that particular amp while sounding terrible on the O2 (harsh, brittle, lifeless). Actually, I am curious whether this H10 can beat out the Lyr's effortless grace with K7xx.
> 
> As to the wall-of-sound effect, I believe it has something to so with the HE-500 voice coil, but this is where I need to do more research.




Out of my project Solstice the he500 almost pushes voices right into my face, whereas the k7xx voices came from on the stage. I am also really interested in how that might change on else I get my h10.


----------



## bavinck

pippen99 said:


> Classic rock is my music of choice.  Pink Floyd is good. Prefer Yes to Rush, well recorded.  Led Zeppelin is complete trash, hopelessly compressed.




I agree with this. I bought the physical graphitie remastered - yuck!


----------



## swannie007

Interesting observations made here by all parties. Personally, I have found that as my gear has improved I am a lot more picky about how well a piece of music has been mastered/recorded as better/more capable equipment will show up any weakness in this regard and make some music unenjoyable(unless played in the car!).
 Some pieces that I have enjoyed in the past on mediocre gear are now unlistenable on my current gear, however, when I find a well recorded piece of music, it is so much more enjoyable than in the past and this makes up for it. So, a double edged sword. I just seek out the better music and enjoy it. Having numerous pieces of gear does afford one the ability to change your source and perhaps compensate for certain shortcomings in some musical pieces and I find this to be one of the interesting and fun aspects of this fabulous hobby of ours. It provides me with untold hours of enjoyment and engagement in my "Bat Cave". Greetings to all from Oz and hoping you all had a grand Easter holiday. Cheers.


----------



## Gibalok

I had a chance to listen HE560 and LCD2 with my Gustard. He560 was much more comfartable and neutral. But im skewing toward LCD2 beibg much more dynamic and fun but sometimes annoying.

Did anybode tested LCD2 and HE560 using Gustard H10? What is your opinion?


----------



## Arnotts

gibalok said:


> I had a chance to listen HE560 and LCD2 with my Gustard. He560 was much more comfartable and neutral. But im skewing toward LCD2 beibg much more dynamic and fun but sometimes annoying.
> 
> Did anybode tested LCD2 and HE560 using Gustard H10? What is your opinion?


 

 A lot of people have tested the LCD-2's and HE-560's with the H10 . Search for those terms in the thread and I'm sure you'll find plenty of info.
  
 To put it simply, the LCD-2 + H10 is a beautiful pairing imo.


----------



## LancerFIN

Badly recorded/mastered music is the reason I still have my humble pc speakers. A lot of industrial stuff sounds horrible with my headphone gear but I can still enjoy them through my speakers.
  


conquerator2 said:


> It was also an impulsive sale that was supposed to fund something... Did not work out unfortunately. So I am on a lookout for a DAC again.
> Otherwise, I was thinking about keeping the X12 for a very long time... Could have happily lived with it


 
 I am sorry to hear that the deal didn't work out.
  
 Eagerly awaiting for the X12 to arrive. Ought to be nice upgrade from NFB-15's DAC.


----------



## Arnotts

pippen99 said:


> My latest purchase was Mark Knopfler's newest Tracker.  It was amazing and that is when I began to suspect that my musical choices were not optimal for a hi-fi headphone system.  As mentioned in Dave Mahler's post on the Beatles music Abbey Road and The White Album have some surprisingly musical tracks such as Come Together and Birthday.  Very well recorded.
> 
> I had hoped, maybe even expected that this headphone system would provide superior sound to my big system but my ADS l810's with a Yamaha sub are really better.


 
  
 It's a true shame that your favourite music doesn't shine on a high end headphone rig. 
  
 I think you would greatly benefit by trying new music with an open mind, though. Most music since the 70's, I think, is mixed/mastered well for 2 channel audio.
  
 It would be an even bigger shame if you never find out the kind of pleasure that your excellent rig is really capable of giving you .


----------



## conquerator2

lancerfin said:


> Badly recorded/mastered music is the reason I still have my humble pc speakers. A lot of industrial stuff sounds horrible with my headphone gear but I can still enjoy them through my speakers.
> 
> I am sorry to hear that the deal didn't work out.
> 
> Eagerly awaiting for the X12 to arrive. Ought to be nice upgrade from NFB-15's DAC.


 
 Should be. I'll ship it tomorrow :]
 And don't worry I scored something equivalent... I am in luck I hope


----------



## Hibuckhobby

After wading through thiss thread, I have an H10 coming this week.
I've had many amps over the last couple years...some I wish I had kept
And some I couldn't wait to get rid of. Loved the woo WA2 and WA6. Hoping
The Gustard will contol the bass on my D7100's. Sounds like the hd650's 
and HE500's will pair well.
Hibuck...


----------



## bavinck

Does anyone know the power rating on the h10? I cannot seem to find it anywhere.


----------



## JoeDoe

Any H10 owners out there looking to sell? Seems like there was 3 to 4 of these in the sale forums a month ago, and now there are none!


----------



## Gibalok

arnotts said:


> A lot of people have tested the LCD-2's and HE-560's with the H10 . Search for those terms in the thread and I'm sure you'll find plenty of info.
> 
> To put it simply, the LCD-2 + H10 is a beautiful pairing imo.


 
  
 Just picked up HE-560 at local shop and im a very happy audioholic now! I can listen w/o any annoying disturbing HF another half of my collection like Trilok Gurtu, Terje Rypdal, Jan Garbarek, e.s.t. - Esbjorn Svensson Trio, God is an Austronaut and others! 
 Thats amazing cans especially with H10. So smooth, clear and natural sound! Will consider to buy some tube amp. Hope they deserve Woo!
  
 LCD2 are great cans but bright for me as TH900 for some bright music..  But anyway I will now save for LCD2/3 to finalize my collection.. ^)


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Burn-in begins on Thursday!  Especially looking forward to hearing the HE500's with this amp.
 Hibuck...


----------



## bavinck

Would be the bifrost uber work well with the H10?


----------



## LancerFIN

bavinck said:


> Would be the bifrost uber work well with the H10?


 

 If you don't already have Bifrost I'd highly recommend you get something else. Maybe X12 from Gustard. People say Bifrost is hardly better than Modi...


----------



## bavinck

So people here using the gustard stack would say the x12 is in a different level than the bifrost?


----------



## aqsw

The bifrost uber is a fantastic dac. Comparable to to the higher schiit stuff. The uber makes a huge difference. 
I have a regular bifrost and the uber I heard was MUCH better than my Bifrost.


----------



## stuartmc

I had a bifrost uber a while back and unfortunately it was before I had the Aune S16 and the Gustard X12. My recollection was that it was very similar to the Aune. It uses the same Japanese chip for DA conversion, but an earlier model. Very smooth and musical. I thought the X12 was better than the Aune in most ways, so I sold the Aune. Based on this experience, I would probably end up giving the nod to the X12 if I were to do a head to head comparison to the Bifrost Uber.


----------



## bavinck

stuartmc said:


> I had a bifrost uber a while back and unfortunately it was before I had the Aune S16 and the Gustard X12. My recollection was that it was very similar to the Aune. It uses the same Japanese chip for DA conversion, but an earlier model. Very smooth and musical. I thought the X12 was better than the Aune in most ways, so I sold the Aune. Based on this experience, I would probably end up giving the nod to the X12 if I were to do a head to head comparison to the Bifrost Uber.




Thanks, that's helpful. I am getting the h10 this week, and will be in the market to upgrade my modi 1 next month. I would like to get the x12 to match. 

I read somewhere that the x12 is supposed to be a clone of a very expensive dac (can't recall which one), does this ring a bell?


----------



## stuartmc

bavinck said:


> Thanks, that's helpful. I am getting the h10 this week, and will be in the market to upgrade my modi 1 next month. I would like to get the x12 to match.
> 
> I read somewhere that the x12 is supposed to be a clone of a very expensive dac (can't recall which one), does this ring a bell?




Yes, I believe it is a DAC by Rein audio. It is quite similar even in cosmetics to the previous Gustard X10. In fact, it has been confirmed that Gustard was the OEM manufacturer for several other companies.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lancerfin said:


> Are you referring to the Bifrost with the Uber upgrade and the usb upgrade? Because that is an amazing dac IMO. Mike Moffat knows his stuff with DACs. However, it may be true that the X12 has better synergy with the H10. Because the H10 is slightly darker and warmer, the natural and smooth timber of the Schiit gear might be too warm for some. As an owner of the Gungnir, this struck me immediately, but I have since come to enjoy the pairing. I would love to hear a brighter DAC with the H10, though, for comparison.
> 
> If you don't already have Bifrost I'd highly recommend you get something else. Maybe X12 from Gustard. People say Bifrost is hardly better than Modi...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Edit: I completely messed up with quoting in that last message.


----------



## Lohb

liu junyuan said:


> Edit: I completely messed up with quoting in that last message.


 

 LOL, I actually though HiFiMAN CEO was diving in to get an H10 for his 1000's....


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lohb said:


> LOL, I actually though HiFiMAN CEO was diving in to get an H10 for his 1000's....




You never know!


----------



## bavinck

That's a good point about synergy with the h10 and x12. Pretty sure an x13 is what I should get, but I do see people raving on headfi about their bifrost uber, so it makes me think.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> That's a good point about synergy with the h10 and x12. Pretty sure an x13 is what I should get, but I do see people raving on headfi about their bifrost uber, so it makes me think.




I feel your pain. It is impossible to know until you have time to listen to both for extended sessions. There is definitely something to be said about synergy between components from the same company, but you never can know. What I can say is that you would probably be pretty happy with either one. Also, FWIW, if you want to go thr Schiit route, the Modi 2 Uber is a lot like thr BifrostUber for a fraction of the price. So less risky. You also have 15 days to return if you don't like it, but there is a restocking fee.


----------



## Zulkr9

liu junyuan said:


> You never know!


 
 He-1000 donation pls. xD


----------



## Arnotts

stuartmc said:


> Yes, I believe it is a DAC by Rein audio. It is quite similar even in cosmetics to the previous Gustard X10. In fact, it has been confirmed that Gustard was the OEM manufacturer for several other companies.


 

 I think the X10 and X12 are similar in design to the Wyred 4 sound DAC-2, while the X9 is similar to the Rein Audio X3.


----------



## swannie007

The point about synergy is a very valid one and, in my case right now, a very timely one. As I am typing this I just happen to be listening to my Cayin Ha-1A tube headphone amp paired with a Rotel RDD-06 dac with Beyer T90 headphones listening to my iMac as a source via USB playing a lossless version of  "Love Notes" by The Rippingtons  and all I can say is WOW! It is beautiful, the attack of the notes and the liveliness of the whole piece is so "alive", sorry, don't know how else to describe it.
 The longwinded point I'm trying to make here is that this is a purely accidental pairing as I usually listen to my Cayin with the Rotel dac but with other headphones. I just plugged the T90's in because they fell to hand and my other headphones were being used on other rigs. The result is great and not what I would have thought of, or expected. The point of all this is to just say, try different combos, you might be quite surprised! I sure was. Cheers.
 P.S. Still love my Gustard stack and for all-round general listening, it's still my favourite.


----------



## stuartmc

arnotts said:


> I think the X10 and X12 are similar in design to the Wyred 4 sound DAC-2, while the X9 is similar to the Rein Audio X3.



Yes, I think this is exactly right. Our friend in Shenzhen, said that Gustard previously only did contact work for others. So I think it is safe to say that both the Wyrd and Rein dacs were manufactured by them. This also gives a clear idea of the value of the dacs Gustard sells itself, as these two other models are way more expensive.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Yes, I think this is exactly right. Our friend in Shenzhen, said that Gustard previously only did contact work for others. So I think it is safe to say that both the Wyrd and Rein dacs were manufactured by them. This also gives a clear idea of the value of the dacs Gustard sells itself, as these two other models are way more expensive.


 

 They finally gave up the self defence school and I understand they then decided to do contract work for others! He he. I'm such a smartass sometimes!


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Question for those of you with more H10 experience.  Mine is inline and burning in.  Initial impressions are good.
 I'm currently running +6 on the gain for my HD650's and HE500's with plenty of gain.  Question is...what happens if
 you flip two dips at once...such as the +6 and -6?   Do you then get zero gain?   Love the bass control on this amp BTW.
 My Lyr is in trouble in that regard.
 best,
 Hibuck...


----------



## normanl

I'd like to purchase GUSTARD H10. Are there sellers in the U.S. (I'm located in the US)?  I'd appreciate much if any one may recommend good and reliable sellers.


----------



## auvgeek

normanl said:


> I'd like to purchase GUSTARD H10. Are there sellers in the U.S. (I'm located in the US)?  I'd appreciate much if any one may recommend good and reliable sellers.


 

 I don't know of any retailers in the US. Seems like pollychen on eBay is who most of us have used. I think most, if not all, have reported a generally positive experience with him, the Chinese New Year notwithstanding. Shipping is typically quick, too.


----------



## sahmen

normanl said:


> I'd like to purchase GUSTARD H10. Are there sellers in the U.S. (I'm located in the US)?  I'd appreciate much if any one may recommend good and reliable sellers.


 
 Do you not count SHENZHENAUDIO on Amazon.com among the "good and reliable sellers"?  That seems to be the most readily obvious choice, besides which there are e-bay sellers too.


----------



## olek

Hopefully my quoting will turn out all right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Anyway, I am a little sceptical about very close similarities between Modi 2 Uber and Bifrost 2 Uber.
  
 Granted, what I have is original Modi and Bifrost, not new uber, but there is a significant difference between my Modi and Bifrost. Yes, tonality is about the same, but Bifrost is not just louder (it IS louder), but to my uneducated ears (glued to HD650 and wired to H10), Bifrost is not just 'cleaner overall' but has significantly better frontal attack on piano notes, bells, and guitar plucking, where Modi squashes that front of the notes and makes it more like the rest of note; another huge difference (for me) is in low bass/cello notes, where Modi delivers nice indistinct smooth low sound, and Bifrost actually delivers quite a bit of a texture (I think it can be still be improved, but difference is quite large).
  
 And just to be devil's advocate, when I listened to music that featured primarily violins (no lows, no explosive frontal attack), Bifrost DID sound quite a bit like Modi to my ears, just a little cleaner.
 Just my 2c 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


liu junyuan said:


> ...if you want to go thr Schiit route, the Modi 2 Uber is a lot like thr BifrostUber for a fraction of the price.


----------



## olek

normanl said:


> I'd like to purchase GUSTARD H10. Are there sellers in the U.S. (I'm located in the US)?  I'd appreciate much if any one may recommend good and reliable sellers.


 
  
 There is one in classified section right now for $270 + $20, posted 40min ago. Good luck.


----------



## olek

After 5 days with H10 verdict is - I like it a lot.
  
 It is very detailed. I am hearing new things in familiar songs. Yes, when I go back to those moments on other amps, I can hear them, but only when I am looking for them, and with H10 it is more like two-by-four striking you - hard to ignore.
  
 Tonality is fairly neutral, on a slightly warm side. Treble is gentle to my ears without being rolled off.
  
 Only bad thing I can say about H10 is that volume knob... It actually slightly 'freezes' on me, and when I start to turn it, it does not want to go, and then it releases with the 'twain' sound/feeling, and rest of adjustment is OK. I suspect my unit may have something misaligned, and hope that other units are better than that. Probably will open it up at some point and try to fiddle with it.
  
 Still, the sound it provides is really nice, and it seems to be true to the source (fairly transparent). Thumbs-up from me!
  
 As for burn-in, it is extreme indeed, but after about 3 days (70 hours) I stopped noticing changes, and now it seems to be much more stable.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> After 5 days with H10 verdict is - I like it a lot.
> 
> It is very detailed. I am hearing new things in familiar songs. Yes, when I go back to those moments on other amps, I can hear them, but only when I am looking for them, and with H10 it is more like two-by-four striking you - hard to ignore.
> 
> ...




I will reply to your excellent point about Bifrost later and only have a small amount of time to respond to this message. 

I think something is wrong with your unit. My volume pot is as smooth as is my Lyr, betraying no signs of resistance whatsoever.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Wow, tough group to break into.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Let me rephrase about the dip switches...
 did anyone get a users manual with their amp that talks about more than one
 dip switch being thrown at a time?    Are they cumulative in nature?
 regards,
 Hibuck....


----------



## olek

Same as Lyr, huh? I had a pleasure to try Lyr at a head-fi meet a month ago, and its volume control was very nice and smooth (and so was its sound - totally impressed me, especially with planars!). My H10 knob is anything but smooth. Confirms my theory about QC issue. Thank you for info, Liu!


----------



## olek

hibuckhobby said:


> Wow, tough group to break into.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 No, no manual and was not able to locate one either. If you find one, let us know 
 Have not tried multiple dip switches at once, I actually just leave them now in 'neutral' state, with all of them down.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

hibuckhobby said:


> Wow, tough group to break into.  :blink:   Let me rephrase about the dip switches...
> did anyone get a users manual with their amp that talks about more than one
> dip switch being thrown at a time?    Are they cumulative in nature?
> regards,
> Hibuck....




There is no manual as far as I am aware. Since this is close in appearance to the back of Violectric V200, I wonder if that manual might help? Otherwise, I unfortunately do not know the answer to that question, other than the fact that each dip switch controls a channel. So one ear would be louder than the other.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> Same as Lyr, huh? I had a pleasure to try Lyr at a head-fi meet a month ago, and its volume control was very nice and smooth (and so was its sound - totally impressed me, especially with planars!). My H10 knob is anything but smooth. Confirms my theory about QC issue. Thank you for info, Liu!




That sucks. I wonder if you can fix it without too much struggle. Maybe something is jammed in the pot. It could be QC or an issue with shipping.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Thanks for the response.  Actually, I was wondering about two switches thrown on each side.
 I'm currently running +6 mostly because there is no "0"  dip switch...although as I think about it,
 it may well be that all down=0.
  
 In any case, the burn-in is coming along well.   Listened to some Wynton Maralis and Willie Nelson
 "Two men with the blues" this morning after 24 hours of burn in and on my HE500's it sounds wonderful.
 regards,
 Hibuck....


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> Same as Lyr, huh? I had a pleasure to try Lyr at a head-fi meet a month ago, and its volume control was very nice and smooth (and so was its sound - totally impressed me, especially with planars!). My H10 knob is anything but smooth. Confirms my theory about QC issue. Thank you for info, Liu!




As a follow-up, you can contact Massdrop too. They may be able to replace the unit, but I know they are supposed to back up their products.


----------



## auvgeek

hibuckhobby said:


> Thanks for the response.  Actually, I was wondering about two switches thrown on each side.
> I'm currently running +6 mostly because there is no "0"  dip switch...although as I think about it,
> it may well be that all down=0.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, all the switches down is zero gain. As has been said before, the balanced gain should be up only if you're using XLR cables.
  
 Does anyone know if bad things happen if you switch the gains while the unit is powered on?


----------



## olek

@auvgeek - I switched gains with unit powered on, and the only punishment gods sent my way was sticky volume knob.
 YMMV.


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> Same as Lyr, huh? I had a pleasure to try Lyr at a head-fi meet a month ago, and its volume control was very nice and smooth (and so was its sound - totally impressed me, especially with planars!). My H10 knob is anything but smooth. Confirms my theory about QC issue. Thank you for info, Liu!


 
  
 My volume knob has a perfectly smooth function.  I would suggest opening her up and see if there is any mechanical binding at the faceplate or at the potentiometer interface.  Since they run a metal rod from front to back for this, a little push or jiggle at the right spot may free this up.


----------



## olek

To @stuartmc, @Liu Junyuan - thank you for encouragement. I did open my H10. And do you know what I found?
  
 First of all, issue of binding volume knob (finally found the right word - binding) is likely caused by over-bent top half of the case. Its sides are supposed to be at right angle to the top, and they slide over pieces of aluminium stock that is bolted to front and back panels. Well, that right angle bend is not quite right ... angle. it is over-bent by couple degrees. And it does not fit over aluminium stock anymore by about 1mm. That means that top 'half-case' is grabbing that aluminium stock and squeezing the hell out of it. That likely causes some slight deformation of front plate, and voila - misaligned bearings start to bind. With the top off, there is no binding whatsoever.
  
 I have used one of my woodworking clamps to try bending that half-case back closer to right angle. It did not have MUCH effect - aluminium just snaps back to previous shape, it was likely annealed, bent and then tempered. Still, after reassembly, knob does not bind AS much and is more usable. Probably I should take top off again, apply clamps to it again, and leave it like that for a day, hoping that metal will creep a bit more.
  
 Another interesting detail. Right after delivery of H10 I noticed that if shaken it produced a slightly rattling sound. Now I know why. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 As I took the top cover off and shook it one more time, a ... small metal hex nut fell into my lap. What? It does not look like it belongs there at all - no nuts are used in assembly, all bolts are threaded into aluminium case, but here we are - a nut, likely just dropped in during assembly. It is a minor miracle that it did not short anything yet. My opinion about assembly quality at Gustard is not too high as of now.
  
 And did I mention aluminium shavings showing up as I removed side bolts, implying that threads in aluminium square stock were cut very imprecisely and bolts were tapping themselves the rest of the way. I heard that metal shavings and electronics do not mix well.
  
 Sitting now, listening to J.S. Bach on my AD900 through H10. Sound is heavenly. But if Gustard is having any hopes of cornering hi-fi market in US, they better get their act together.


----------



## stuartmc

That nut you are taking about is probably the grounding nut which is on the foot closest to the IEC power socket. Make sure to reconnect this as it makes a difference in sound quality.


----------



## olek

You are absolutely right, sir! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That is where this nut was from! It is back in its proper place now, holding grounding wire to the chassis. Thank you!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> To @stuartmc
> , @Liu Junyuan
> - thank you for encouragement. I did open my H10. And do you know what I found?
> 
> ...




OMG. You can probably get a replacement from MassDrop.


----------



## olek

No reason for OMG, Liu. Ain't that bad. Just some sloppiness on their part. After stretching top half-case for an hour or so it was easier to put back on (still tight), and volume knob is now pretty smooth and easy to turn. Just ran another round of sound comparisons with Precision 1 and another TOTL vintage amp I am restoring now, and there is no comparison - H10 just eliminates the competition, with either high or low impedance headphones.


----------



## Lohb

olek said:


> No reason for OMG, Liu. Ain't that bad. Just some sloppiness on their part. After stretching top half-case for an hour or so it was easier to put back on (still tight), and volume knob is now pretty smooth and easy to turn. Just ran another round of sound comparisons with Precision 1 and another TOTL vintage amp I am restoring now, and there is no comparison - H10 just eliminates the competition, with either high or low impedance headphones.


 

 and the balanced will be another notch up again ! Great company.


----------



## spurxiii

Sounds interesting I might buy one for the office setup


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Hey everyone. The X12 is up on Massdrop. If I didn't just buy another piece of gear, I would be all over this.

Edit: Linky https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-dac-x12-usb-version?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Community%20-%20Audiophile%20-%20MAU%20%28Active%29&utm_campaign=Audiophile%20Active%20Product%20Announcement%202015-04-10&mode=guest_open


----------



## LancerFIN

You Americans are so lucky to get these awesome drops.
  
 My X12 didn't arrive today. Tracking was looking promising yesterday but for some reason it didn't move so it's still in Helsinki. Most likely will receive it on Monday then.


----------



## olek

liu junyuan said:


> Hey everyone. The X12 is up on Massdrop.


 
  
 Thank you, Liu, for heads-up!
  
 Forgive me if it was already discussed on previous 70 pages, but do we have anybody here that owns both Bifrost and X12 and could compare them? Pointer to page number would do if I am beating a dead horse.
  
 I am listening to Chopin Nocturnes today and I am very impressed how much more realistic piano notes sound on Bifrost compared to Modi or HRT MusicStreamer II (all that frontal attack!).


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Stuart owned the Bifrost Uber and made some comments, and conquerator20 said he preferred the x12 to Gungnir. I think this chalks up to a matter of preferences, though, because he was fairly upfront about how he likes Sabre DACs better in the first place. 

Bifrost Uber is a great dac. It will most likely be less resolving than X12 since the Gungnir is as well. Where the Schiit gear excels is in natural tonality and timbre--sheer musicality . Apparently, the X12 pulls this off without sacrificing too much of the detail Sabre is known for. While Sabre has been criticized for being harsh or digital, the X12 navigates the precarious razor's edge between the two. If I could, I would have both, but until I actually hear the X12, I am not willing to sell the Gungnir for it because I love Schiit's DACs.

Edit: Yeah, the first Modi was just okay. I think the Modi 2 Uber is more in line with the Bifrost. Chopin is awesome. Do you listen to Debussy? He is one of my favs.


----------



## auvgeek

liu junyuan said:


> Hey everyone. The X12 is up on Massdrop. If I didn't just buy another piece of gear, I would be all over this.
> 
> Edit: Linky https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-dac-x12-usb-version?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Community%20-%20Audiophile%20-%20MAU%20%28Active%29&utm_campaign=Audiophile%20Active%20Product%20Announcement%202015-04-10&mode=guest_open


 

 Hmmm... I was planning to go for a Gungnir, but this seems like a phenomenal deal if it gets down to $450 shipped. Really curious how the X12 compares to the X20, too.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

auvgeek said:


> Hmmm... I was planning to go for a Gungnir, but this seems like a phenomenal deal if it gets down to $450 shipped. Really curious how the X12 compares to the X20, too.




It is a tough decision. You would save money with the X12, I suppose. I am curious how the X12 fares against the $1k Matrix X-Sabre to be frank because most of the impressions I have heard make them seem very similar. X 20 is not even out yet so of course no one will know. 

Toss a coin maybe? 

If the H10 is anything to go by, I really believe the engineer behind Gustard knows what he is doing. I wonder how the two complement one another as well. Since the H10 is slightly dark, some might take the Schiit and Gustard pairing to be too dark, whereas the the X12's Sabre detail might offset the warmth of the H10. To be honest, I love the pairing with my Schiit and am really hoping to get my xlr cable soon to make some finally assessments.


----------



## olek

liu junyuan said:


> Yeah, the first Modi was just okay. I think the Modi 2 Uber is more in line with the Bifrost. Chopin is awesome. Do you listen to Debussy? He is one of my favs.


 
  
 First Modi is actually slightly better than MusicStreamer II, not bad at all considering that it is 2 time cheaper. But yes, it does not compare to Bifrost.
  
 As for the music, believe it or not but I have a vinyl record on my table since yesterday, waiting to be played, and it is Debussy 'Petite Suite and other works'. Debussy is great.


----------



## conquerator2

liu junyuan said:


> Stuart owned the Bifrost Uber and made some comments, and conquerator2*0* said he preferred the x12 to Gungnir. I think this chalks up to a matter of preferences, though, because he was fairly upfront about how he likes Sabre DACs better in the first place.
> 
> Bifrost Uber is a great dac. It will most likely be less resolving than X12 since the Gungnir is as well. Where the Schiit gear excels is in natural tonality and timbre--sheer musicality . Apparently, the X12 pulls this off without sacrificing too much of the detail Sabre is known for. While Sabre has been criticized for being harsh or digital, the X12 navigates the precarious razor's edge between the two. If I could, I would have both, but until I actually hear the X12, I am not willing to sell the Gungnir for it because I love Schiit's DACs.
> 
> Edit: Yeah, the first Modi was just okay. I think the Modi 2 Uber is more in line with the Bifrost. Chopin is awesome. Do you listen to Debussy? He is one of my favs.


 
 I resent that extra 0 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 For *me* X12 > Gungnir any day. YMMV, I think I've been vocal enough about it.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

conquerator2 said:


> I resent that extra 0
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Oops, sorry to rustle your jimmies. Perhaps you'd be less resentful had you kept the X12
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, I indicated that was your opinion, for you, and that you were up front about those preferences. 
  
 In any case, I claim agnosticism until I actually hear the X12, which probably will not be likely for awhile unfortunately. 
  
 On a positive note, though, the lowest price is one person away from being unlocked.


----------



## conquerator2

liu junyuan said:


> Oops, sorry to rustle your jimmies. Perhaps you'd be less resentful had you kept the X12:devil_face:
> 
> Yes, I indicated that was your opinion, for you, and that you were up front about those preferences.
> 
> ...




Perfectly fine.
I sold my X12 to try some vintage R2R flavour instead.
Though the X12 was excellent IMO, especially given the price


----------



## bavinck

Those of you that earlier suggested you hear more bass from the h10 with gain +6 and +12, do you still feel that is a fair observation? Just fired up my new h10 and switching between 0 and +6 gain I am not sure that I hear any difference.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Which headphones were using again?


----------



## bavinck

HE500


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I see. I have been listening to K7XX most the last few days; the H10 is so good for them that it actually is now surpassing my Lyr, which I prevously thought was a match made in heaven for these AKGs. 

Here is something I will say that may or may not be relevant to you. 

Someone on the K7XX thread criticize the headphone for revealing a hole in its center image. 

When I first plugged in the K7XXs, I was immediately unimpressed, like within a minute, compared to my Lyr, which made them so graceful. 

But these last few days, I have been listening to the K7XX out of the H10 exclusively, and these experiences have constituted some of the most memorable I have had since joining the hobby. 

To indirectly respond to your query while yoking together the tedious narrative above: after I saw you post, I changed my gain to 0 and noticed a hole in the soundstage, which, remember, others have blamed the K7XXs for. This hole reminded me of the first time I dismissed the H10 as being responsible. 

Switching to +6 gain, I noticed this hole completely disappeared. 

Somehow, upping the gain filled in the K7XX. I would suspect, then, that higher gain would inflect the reception of your HE-500. The question is really which setting most appropriately suits your tastes.


----------



## bavinck

Thanks for your thoughts. Going back and forth a bit tonight I must say gain of +6 is more pleasurable on the he500s. The sound does seem more filled in or complete somehow. Not sure how this is even possible.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. Going back and forth a bit tonight I must say gain of +6 is more pleasurable on the he500s. The sound does seem more filled in or complete somehow. Not sure how this is even possible.




Please try +12 as well, but turn the volume down appropriately. Tell us what you hear. I am terribly interested.


----------



## Lohb

liu junyuan said:


> Please try +12 as well, but turn the volume down appropriately. Tell us what you hear. I am terribly interested.


 

 Would the gain settings not be more inclined to alter a dynamic headphone's presentation vs a planar headphone with flat impedance ?


----------



## Zulkr9

liu junyuan said:


> I see. I have been listening to K7XX most the last few days; the H10 is so good for them that it actually is now surpassing my Lyr, which I prevously thought was a match made in heaven for these AKGs.
> 
> Here is something I will say that may or may not be relevant to you.
> 
> ...


 
 Well most people do say that the K7 series are great with solid state amps.


----------



## Zulkr9

bavinck said:


> Those of you that earlier suggested you hear more bass from the h10 with gain +6 and +12, do you still feel that is a fair observation? Just fired up my new h10 and switching between 0 and +6 gain I am not sure that I hear any difference.


 
 I don't think there should be any differences between bass in gain settings unless you are using a high impedance input headphone


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lohb said:


> Would the gain settings not be more inclined to alter a dynamic headphone's presentation vs a planar headphone with flat impedance ?




Good question! I have no idea anymore. AKG is tricky because its low Z, thriving on current it would seem. All i know is that no gain sounds terrible, with a hole in the soundstage, while medium (+6) fills that hole in. It is very very conspicuous. From unlistenable to the best I have heard with this phone.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

zulkr9 said:


> Well most people do say that the K7 series are great with solid state amps.




But the hole reemerges with my o2, which is solid state.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

conquerator2 said:


> Perfectly fine.
> I sold my X12 to try some vintage R2R flavour instead.
> Though the X12 was excellent IMO, especially given the price




You could have stayed with both your NFB-27 and your X12 though. Something, some thing, some doubt?, told you to sell that Schiit. 

Whether this may be attributable to your restlessness as an early 20 year old or your discovery of new DACs is highly essential. 

As a 21 year old, you possess a considerable level of experience.


----------



## Lohb

liu junyuan said:


> But the hole reemerges with my o2, which is solid state.


 

 Maybe it will pair excellently with TH-600 when messing with gain to bring up the mids....


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lohb said:


> Maybe it will pair excellently with TH-600 when messing with gain to bring up the mids....




Never heard that awesome phone, but perhaps.


----------



## Lohb

liu junyuan said:


> Never heard that awesome phone, but perhaps.


 

 v-shaped dynamic can.....so extrapolating your discovery, it might fill out the mids...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lohb said:


> v-shaped dynamic can.....so extrapolating your discovery, it might fill out the mids...


 

I hope so, but dont be enchanted too much by my comments on AKGs; these headphones are an anomaly.


----------



## conquerator2

Well, I received the K7XX yesterday and for the price I think they are formidable phones.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

conquerator2 said:


> Well, I received the K7XX yesterday and for the price I think they are formidable phones.




Well no Schiit. They are more than formidable.


----------



## conquerator2

liu junyuan said:


> Well no Schiit. They are more than formidable.




Well, they don't beat my HE-560. But for 200$ they get uncomfortably close in most aspects...


----------



## Arnotts

I'm interested in reading your thoughts on the R2R dac that you get, conquerator.


----------



## conquerator2

arnotts said:


> I'm interested in reading your thoughts on the R2R dac that you get, conquerator.




Will do. Should get it Mon/Tue


----------



## BassDigger

no_one411 said:


> 12/3/14
> ... I've noticed that it's easy to tell when planar magnetic headphones are not being driven enough. You lose a lot of body, and the bass seems very loose and weak. The mids also seemed a little recessed and did not have the lush mids that you generally associate with planar magnetic headphones....
> 
> Hope this helps. I know I'm not great with descriptions.


 
  
 Well, your above description certainly 'rang a bell' with me.
  
 I would have very much appreciated your input in a discussion about the HE400 http://www.head-fi.org/t/741024/he-400-bass-not-as-present-as-i-expected 
  
 I've now sold my he400s, because both bass and mids lacked body and I also found the upper mids often to be a little too 'screechy' or 'ringy'. Actually they weren't that bad; I just decided that the LCD 2 should be a worthwhile improvement; they'll (hopefully) arrive soon.
  
 So, that leaves the question of the amp; your description seems to suggest that maybe my current amp hasn't got enough steam for planars.
 That wouldn't be too surprising; it's a Beyer A1 clone, which has about 0.5 watt (??? impedance). It's designed for the T-1, not planars.
 But I wasn't sure; it has plenty enough power to get the he400 very loud, without distorting or losing any impact. In fact, the only time that I ever heard any 'weakness' was when listening to the treble shy and bass heavy Peter Gabriel 'Us' album; cranking the volume up to nearly 4 O'clock (for a few seconds) produced some tell-tale break-up. But only then, and that's hardly surprising; my normal he400 listening was at the 11-12 o'clock position. (I always wanted to turn it up, to fill out the bass, but the screechy mids and sibilant treble would soon have me turning the knob back).
 As I'm currently living somewhere where it's very easy for me to get hold of Chinese domestic products, reading how so many are so impressed by the H10 (particularly with planar hps), then once I've burnt the LCD2s in a little, I know for sure what my next 'wife exasperating' purchase will be!


----------



## Hibuckhobby

As one who has recently purchased an H10, I think you would be pleased.  Be aware however, the stories of significant
 change during "burn in" have been my experience as well.  What's more, it is a revealing amplifier, which means that
 music that sounded "good" on previous setups may or may not sound good here.  The H10 will reveal poor recordings
 and thin music will sound thin.  I'm very sensitive to as you put it "screeching mids and highs" as well and while this is
 not an amp that will emphasize sibilance, it will reveal a threadbare midrange.
  
 I'm very pleased with how it's driving my HE500's and am hearing details I haven't heard in past years of ownership.
 At this price point, it was, for me a no-brainer.
 regards,
 Hibuck....


----------



## BassDigger

Thanks Hibuck,
  
 I think (hope) that my 'old skool, new tech' hybrid source will portray the quality of the recordings that it's fed, without emphasising the thin stuff, too much.
  
 You're right; some recordings, particularly a lot of the 90's rock/grunge that I like, is mixed to sound 'exciting' on the radio, or less than transparent hifi. But when played on revealing equipment it can have you gritting your teeth, cringing or wishing that you'd kept your old system, with those tone controls (to filter out half of the music).
  
 At least, with the combination of LCD-2F and H10, it seems I'll have a good idea of true north (once they've both had a good few hours of burn-in!).


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> Please try +12 as well, but turn the volume down appropriately. Tell us what you hear. I am terribly interested.




OK friend. I did some more testing on gain settings. I am indeed hearing a very small amount of rounded out (increased?) bass with +6 relative to 0. I am not noticing anymore increase in bass to +12,but my h10 has less than than 10 hrs on it and bass is said to change with burn in. 

I am definitely noticing the hole at 0 that you have described. This does indeed completely disappear with +6 and +12 is the same as +6. 

It's not exactly a hole. Imagining a surround sound setup as analogy, at 0 gain I am getting voices through the centre, but all the other instruments are coming through right and left speakers that are placed right next to my ear (surround l and r, not front l and r) . In my test song, a piano in panning from right to left, but it completely skips the front l, r and centre channels, going directly front surround r to l. Drums are the same, pounding at me from surround l and r, completely bypassing the front l and r speakers. It's like the front l and r speakers are not included in the mix. With +6 gain the front l and r speakers are well used, and the piano pan indeed crosses right across my face, r to l. The drums are now coming out of the surround l and r and the front l and r. Everything is completely filled it. Front l and r speakers are being well used. +12 gain is the same to my ears as the +6 gain. 

No idea what is going on with this lol...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> OK friend. I did some more testing on gain settings. I am indeed hearing a very small amount of rounded out (increased?) bass with +6 relative to 0. I am not noticing anymore increase in bass to +12,but my h10 has less than than 10 hrs on it and bass is said to change with burn in.
> 
> I am definitely noticing the hole at 0 that you have described. This does indeed completely disappear with +6 and +12 is the same as +6.
> 
> ...




Thank you. Very interesting indeed. So you are getting this from the HE-500, not the K7XX?


----------



## bavinck

Yes, sorry I forgot to mention, I am using my he500 exclusive for the above observations.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> Thank you. Very interesting indeed. So you are getting this from the HE-500, not the K7XX?



Have you tried Hqplayer? If not, please do and let me know if you think it affects sq with your h10


----------



## pippen99

bassdigger said:


> Thanks Hibuck,
> 
> I think (hope) that my 'old skool, new tech' hybrid source will portray the quality of the recordings that it's fed, without emphasising the thin stuff, too much.
> 
> ...


 
 This has been my experience.  I was ready to give in to despair after about 20 hours.  The change in the next 30 hours was considerable.  My main music genre is Classic Rock.  There are some tracks that are completely unlistenable.  Particularly bad are mono recordings converted to stereo(think older Beatles and some Doors).  The tracks recorded well will sound fantastic with the H10 +LCD-2f(that's what I have) and you learn to accept the other tracks as they are or play them in your car.


----------



## bavinck

pippen99 said:


> This has been my experience.  I was ready to give in to despair after about 20 hours.  The change in the next 30 hours was considerable.  My main music genre is Classic Rock.  There are some tracks that are completely unlistenable.  Particularly bad are mono recordings converted to stereo(think older Beatles and some Doors).  The tracks recorded well will sound fantastic with the H10 +LCD-2f(that's what I have) and you learn to accept the other tracks as they are or play them in your car.



How would you describe the change that occurred with the h10, to your ears?


----------



## stuartmc

Interesting observations on the gain switches. A while back I tried almost all of the settings with both the HE-560 and the Senn HD600. I suspected that there might be a short burn in required for each setting, so I ran each for about ten hours. I also level matched each one with my spl meter. With my phones, I found very little difference in the gain settings. Not enough for me to draw any reliable conclusions. I suspect that this imaging phenomenon some of you are experiencing may be headphone dependent -impedance, reactance,etc. and possibly exacerbated by break in and level matching. The good news is that the H10 allows us to experiment and find the setting that sounds best to us, so it's a win regardless of the unique factors in play.

My personal preference is to choose a setting that places the potentiometer in the middle of its range at the volume level that I normally use. The old school rule was that potentiometer was the most linear and had the best left/right balance in this middle range.


----------



## pippen99

Quote:+ 





bavinck said:


> How would you describe the change that occurred with the h10, to your ears?


 
 First qualification is that this is my first Hifi headphone system.  Second qualification is that I purchased the system (X12 + H10 + Lcd-2f) at the same time so I cannot point to one particular component(also lacking experience) and say this is causing this.
  
 Initially I found everything to be quite congested.  Only on tracks with acoustic instruments and vocals could I get separation.  The mids especially vocals were pushed forward and dominated lows and highs.  After about 30 hours the soundstage began to expand and the bass began to round in to shape.  I still find the bass somewhat weak but at least its there.  I agree that something in this system is very revealing(again lack of experience) because some of my favorite music is now only marginally listenable.  I reripped everything to Apple lossless so I must accept that the original source weakness is to blame for some of what I heard.


----------



## No_One411

bassdigger said:


> Well, your above description certainly 'rang a bell' with me.
> 
> I would have very much appreciated your input in a discussion about the HE400 http://www.head-fi.org/t/741024/he-400-bass-not-as-present-as-i-expected
> 
> ...


 
  
 Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the Beyer clone, so I can't speak for how well that pairing would work. It seems much better suited for regular dynamic headphones though. 
  
 The Gustard is actually a bit on the warmer side of things. It doesn't overly romanticize songs, but it isn't the harsh, analytical sound that everybody seems to associate with solid state amplifiers...
  
 I never have an issue with volume and headroom with the H10, even when powering something like the HE-6. It works great with all the planar magnetic headphones I've thrown at it, and some high impedance headphones like the HD650 as well.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Have you tried Hqplayer? If not, please do and let me know if you think it affects sq with your h10


 

I have never heard if it. I use Foobar. I will try though later.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> I have never heard if it. I use Foobar. I will try though later.



Well then, imo you are in for a real sq treat! The interface and library capabilities are definitely lacking, but the sq.....


----------



## LancerFIN

bavinck said:


> Well then, imo you are in for a real sq treat! The interface and library capabilities are definitely lacking, but the sq.....


 

 If the sound is different than in other players then it's altering it. So what you are hearing is some eq


----------



## Hibuckhobby

pippen99 said:


> Quote:+
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have about 80 hours on my H10 right now and with HE500's listening to Nils Lofgren's Acoustic Live I can't believe how good it sounds.  Clear without being analytical, warm
 without being syrupy and great bass/transient response.  I've been in the audio game for 45 years, so it's not my first rodeo, but my jaw is hanging open.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Hibuck....


----------



## bavinck

lancerfin said:


> If the sound is different than in other players then it's altering it. So what you are hearing is some eq



Don't knock it until you try it... And read the manual where the author explains his philosophy and approach in writing the program.


----------



## JoeDoe

Been trying to read up on this amp since I have one in coming and I come to find out that there are no reviews in the headgear section! Some of you blokes needs to step up!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I am considering doing so once I get my xlr interconnects and assess the differences.


----------



## stuartmc

hibuckhobby said:


> I have about 80 hours on my H10 right now and with HE500's listening to Nils Lofgren's Acoustic Live I can't believe how good it sounds.  Clear without being analytical, warm
> without being syrupy and great bass/transient response.  I've been in the audio game for 45 years, so it's not my first rodeo, but my jaw is hanging open.:basshead:
> Hibuck....



Greetings Hibuck. I think you qualify for our old school Gustard appreciators club, aka senior swabbies. You summed up my own listening experience with the H10 rather nicely.


----------



## olek

BTW - just in case any of you with Sennheiser's are interested, bottlehead crack with speedball is on sale right now, bringing its price down from $400 to $300. I could not help to order one since it is known as THE amp for high impedance Sennheisers. Very curious how tubes technology will stack up to H10's solid state.
  
 Ah, and another thing. Got power amp section of amazing TOTL vintage integrated amplifier I am restoring now (Teac AS-200) completely back in shape (repaired, recapped with best nichicon audio grade caps and adjusted), and could not help the temptation to connect it via 'power amp in' (to avoid mess of pre-amp) and compare side-to-side with H10. To my surprise, it was quite similar, with only slightly boomier bass being the difference. No wonder, 400 Ohm output impedance is not really helping to keep bass in check. Changed headphone out resistor matrix to kick impedance down to 10 Ohm, cranked up the volume (40v power rail to the rescue!), tried again, and... wow. Overall sound very similar to H10, a tiniest bit less warm. Going back and forth number of times confirmed amazing similarities, although no miracles - H10 still wins easily on details and transparency, although on bad recordings or lossy music vintage amp can be more 'musical' (by virtue of omission). Still, tonal similarity between them is uncanny. Audio-gd Precision one is distinct in its lushness. And 1020 preamp got very distinct coloration and slight V-shape to its sound. But AS-200 and H10 are like brothers, although 40 years of age difference are easy to spot.
  
 And than, after playing high bitrate mp3 of 'Ar Maen Bihan' by Yann Tiersen on all my amps, I just had to play same thing on vinyl through H10. OMG. This is seriously addictive.


----------



## FlySweep

hibuckhobby said:


> ..Clear without being analytical .. warm without being syrupy and great bass/transient response.


 
  
 That's a great way to describe it.
  
 As (one of) the original Gustard/H10 swabbies, I'm so glad to see the H10 getting more attention.. it's really a nice amp and I still miss it dearly!
  
 Regarding the gain/volume talk.. my experience with variable gain settings on solid state amps I've owned** is that the high(er) gain setting tends to impart a _slightly_ (but definitely audible) more forward midrange than the low(er) gain settings.  I've found this to be fairly consistent across all the amps I've owned, btw.  Again, just my experience.. could be placebo.. could be something to do with (similar) design (goals).. but I tend to trust my ears.. so there's that.
  
 **Neco SoundLab V3 & V4 (two terrific portable amps), Meier QuickStep (another favorite), Vio V200 & Lake People G109, Leckerton UHA-6S MKII, Gustard H10.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

flysweep said:


> That's a great way to describe it.
> 
> As (one of) the original Gustard/H10 swabbies, I'm so glad to see the H10 getting more attention.. it's really a nice amp and still miss it!
> 
> ...




Thank you Flysweep. It was your post that swayed me toward the H10, as I was planning on the G109 for a long time. I am very happy with this amp!


----------



## BassDigger

> > Quote:
> >
> >
> >
> ...


 
  
 I'm inclined to agree with Lancer:
  
 If HQPlayer is sounding 'better', that probably means that either your other players/converters (such as foobar) are having a problem, and not running properly, or HQplayer is doing something that those (already well respected) programs aren't (such as EQing or resampling).
  
 But out of curiosity I will investigate; perhaps there's something there (such as a better algorithm), and if we always stick with what we know, nothing will ever change (for the better).


----------



## bavinck

bassdigger said:


> I'm inclined to agree with Lancer:
> 
> If HQPlayer is sounding 'better', that probably means that either your other players/converters (such as foobar) are having a problem, and not running properly, or HQplayer is doing something that those (already well respected) programs aren't (such as EQing or resampling).
> 
> But out of curiosity I will investigate; perhaps there's something there (such as a better algorithm), and if we always stick with what we know, nothing will ever change (for the better).



The big draw of Hqplayer is good upsampling algorithms. But the stock sample rate is nice too. Upsampling with foobar I can get a similar sound, but I think hqp sound a bit better.

Upsampling through h10 sounds amazing. I don't think of upsampling as eq though, in my mind that is a different thing.


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> The big draw of Hqplayer is good upsampling algorithms. But the stock sample rate is nice too. Upsampling with foobar I can get a similar sound, but I think hqp sound a bit better.
> 
> Upsampling through h10 sounds amazing. I don't think of upsampling as eq though, in my mind that is a different thing.


 
  
 Yeah, I had a little look at the hqplayer thread, and I thought that that may be the kind of thing you meant.
  
 You're right; upsampling and EQing are completely different things: upsampling is (supposedly) adding missing music, by filling in missing parts, to create a smoother signal (as I understand it). EQing is somehow manipulating different parts of the frequency spectrum, to change the sound to your liking. I gave both up.
  
 So I guess, you're (like many) using your computer to play your audio files, and you like this player.
  
 But I'm afraid this is irrelevant to me, at this time; I'm gonna stick my nose up in the air and say that I use a dedicated (r2r) player, to play old-fashioned redbook wav files. (Upsampling!?! How much 'music' can a computer program add to a track, to make it sound 'better'??)
  
 I wasn't sure what you were referencing; I didn't realise that you were talking about upsampling, rather than just pure conversion (such as flac to wav). So, my apologies for that.
  
 Enjoy your journey.
  
 P.S. I'm not sure that I should be 'contributing' to this thread; I won't be getting my H10 until the summer holiday!!! But my LCD2Fs should arrive tomorrow!!!!


----------



## mjock3

Not sure if this had been posted yet. The Gustard DAC-X12 is on massdrop.com for $439.99 5 more days.


----------



## ansi

mjock3 said:


> Not sure if this had been posted yet. The Gustard DAC-X12 is on massdrop.com for $439.99 5 more days.


 
  
 That's $50 more than Gustard's own price of $390. I assume that includes shipping then?


----------



## LancerFIN

ansi said:


> That's $50 more than Gustard's own price of $390. I assume that includes shipping then?


 
 It doesn't. Shipping to US is about $10 I think. Rest of the world upwards $60. But it's cheaper than any ebay or shenzhenaudio offering. Atleast for US citizens.


----------



## bavinck

ansi said:


> That's $50 more than Gustard's own price of $390. I assume that includes shipping then?




I think you are thinking about the h10. The x12 is more expensive.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

It is 2389 元 on taobao, which translates to $383. Most US buyers would prefer to go through Massdrop, I am assuming.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> It is 2389 元 on taobao, which translates to $383. Most US buyers would prefer to go through Massdrop, I am assuming.




I looked there but did not see the x12, just the h10. I would love to get that price on the x12. The $50 shipping and then customs charges makes massdrop pretty unattractive for Canadians.


----------



## ansi

lancerfin said:


> It doesn't. Shipping to US is about $10 I think. Rest of the world upwards $60. But it's cheaper than any ebay or shenzhenaudio offering. Atleast for US citizens.


 
  
 Hey, another Finn. Where did you buy your H10? Any problems with customs?


----------



## LancerFIN

bavinck said:


> I looked there but did not see the x12, just the h10. I would love to get that price on the x12. The $50 shipping and then customs charges makes massdrop pretty unattractive for Canadians.


 

 Taobao only ships to China. You'd have to use agent service to get it shipped outside of China which adds fees and can be risky.


ansi said:


> Hey, another Finn. Where did you buy your H10? Any problems with customs?


 

 I bought both my H10 and X12 used from European head-fiers to avoid insane custom charges. 24% VAT and 5% import tax. Of course you can lie the value to customs but it was easier to buy them used and save a lot of money.


----------



## ansi

bavinck said:


> I looked there but did not see the x12, just the h10. I would love to get that price on the x12. The $50 shipping and then customs charges makes massdrop pretty unattractive for Canadians.


 
  
 Here you go: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-620452534.3.jcwxWY&id=18012850492
  
 Actually the price difference comes from the USB - 390 bucks for one without USB, 420 for the USB one. If you use U12 there is no point in getting one with USB of course. 
  
 edit: Taobao is like ebay. Ships everywhere if the seller wants to ship everywhere, and they usually do. The actual problem comes from language barriers...


----------



## sahmen

Is the x-12 a good investment, if I already have a couple of outboard DACS (the Emotiva Stealth DC-1, and Emotiva XDA-2) which work well with the H-10?.  I normally use those DACS for standard 2-channel stereo duties in my rigs, but they also service headphones well, independently or through headphone amps. The Emotiva Stealth DC-1 uses "...dual independent AD1955 differential D/A converters, each operated in their highest quality internal differential monaural mode, for the lowest possible noise and distortion, followed by professional-grade LM4562 op-amps in the analog section for maximum fidelity."  The XDA-2 uses one of those same AD 1955 DACs, if I remember correctly.
  
 The X-12 on Massdrop seems attractive, but I'd like to skip it to save some cash if I can, and that is why I am asking...


----------



## conquerator2

ansi said:


> Here you go: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-620452534.3.jcwxWY&id=18012850492
> 
> Actually the price difference comes from the USB - 390 bucks for one without USB, 420 for the USB one. If you use U12 there is no point in getting one with USB of course.
> 
> edit: Taobao is like ebay. Ships everywhere if the seller wants to ship everywhere, and they usually do. The actual problem comes from language barriers...



I prefered X12 USB to U12. The U12 is great. The X12 USB just fit better with X12 IMO.


----------



## RiddleyWalker

liu junyuan said:


> It is a tough decision. You would save money with the X12, I suppose. I am curious how the X12 fares against the $1k Matrix X-Sabre to be frank because most of the impressions I have heard make them seem very similar. X 20 is not even out yet so of course no one will know.
> 
> Toss a coin maybe?
> 
> If the H10 is anything to go by, I really believe the engineer behind Gustard knows what he is doing. I wonder how the two complement one another as well. Since the H10 is slightly dark, some might take the Schiit and Gustard pairing to be too dark, whereas the the X12's Sabre detail might offset the warmth of the H10. To be honest, I love the pairing with my Schiit and am really hoping to get my xlr cable soon to make some finally assessments.


 

 Hi there, looking forward to your impressions of Gungnir + H10 + HE-500 Fuzzor.  It's so funny that you have this combo of gear because that may be what I go with once I'm ready to upgrade.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

riddleywalker said:


> Hi there, looking forward to your impressions of Gungnir + H10 + HE-500 Fuzzor.  It's so funny that you have this combo of gear because that may be what I go with once I'm ready to upgrade.
> 
> Thanks!


 
 Well, I love it--such a smooth, musical, dynamic and detailed system--but I am sure the X12 would also make a lovely pairing as perhaps the H10's designer tuned the amp with the X12's characteristics in mind. I am listening to the HD 650s out of the H10 now, and these are the best they have sounded on my system thus far. Has burn-in finally achieved its apex? Smooth, non-fatiguing, yet detailed--these are terms that one can use to describe the HD 650 anyways, but the H10 just brings these traits out even more for all of my headphones. Perhaps I shall grab an X12 in the future so that I can compare it with the Gungnir. I have to admit, though, that the Yggdrasil is going to be difficult to ignore for any future DAC purchases on my end.


----------



## olek

liu junyuan said:


> I am listening to the HD 650s out of the H10 now, and these are the best they have sounded on my system thus far. Has burn-in finally achieved its apex? Smooth, non-fatiguing, yet detailed--these are terms that one can use to describe the HD 650 anyways, but the H10 just brings these traits out even more for all of my headphones.


 
 I concur. By the way, when I said that effects of burn-in stopped after 3 days, I lied. It is just that burn in became slower and change is happening to different sound qualities. First 3 days took sound from muddy to dry and harsh and then to nice clear sound with deep bass extension, but sound itself was still a little bit ... dry? analytical? or maybe this is what people call solid state sound? Anyway, extra week of use made every note somehow more 'rounded' and more gentle and musical, without sacrificing the detail at all. Jazz never sounded this good, and I no longer miss 'lush' sound of Precision 1 amp. H10 is my reference amp at this point, and everything else is measured UP to it.


----------



## stuartmc

Welcome to our marry band of the SS Gustard. It's truly an extraordinary amp for the price. No, screw the price....It's extraordinarily good at any price.


----------



## swannie007

I must concur with our esteemed "Captain Guinea Pig" of the SS Gustard. Welcome aboard!
 Having recently read much of the coverage of recent headphone "events" I must admit to a growing concern that our beloved hobby is headed down the same track that "audiophile stereo" has traversed.
 As testimony of this I call your attention to the fact that "our" events now have speaker rooms/demo areas??What? I thought this was head-fi.
 Another concern is the ever increasing cost of decent equipment, just as "audiophile stereo" in the past and I fear that these escalating costs will scare many possible newcomers away from our hobby and it too may suffer a slow lingering death and stagnation of the introduction of new and innovative technologies at an affordable cost to the average working person.
 Do we really need $2500 portable DAP's and $2500 portable DAC's and $2500 headphones!! Not to mention cables. This is just looney tunes and it is for this reason that I am so grateful that Gustard produces such fine gear at affordable prices for the masses. Don't get me wrong, there are still manufacturers out there that produce great gear at reasonable prices(FiiO, Schiit et al) and I am also grateful for, and support them, but the majority of manufacturers seem to be increasing their prices with each new addition to their lines, in some cases justified, and others not. I think we need to caution ourselves against this ever increasing escalation of prices and support the manufacturers that offer good value for money. I know that this is a personal thing and value is a very nebulas thing and varies from one consumer to the next but I fear that many manufacturers are "taking the piss"and we shouldn't support this sort of abuse by them of our wallets. Vote with your dollars, or rupees, or whatever. I, for one, will do so and urge others to do the same and until enough consumers do so, the abusers will continue to flourish. Pardon my rant but I needed to get that off my chest.
 Now, back to my Gustard stack and the music. Greetings for the "bosun of the bush" in Oz.


----------



## BassDigger

swannie007 said:


> I must concur with our esteemed "Captain Guinea Pig" of the SS Gustard. Welcome aboard!
> Having recently read much of the coverage of recent headphone "events" I must admit to a growing concern that our beloved hobby is headed down the same track that "audiophile stereo" has traversed.
> As testimony of this I call your attention to the fact that "our" events now have speaker rooms/demo areas??What? I thought this was head-fi.
> Another concern is the ever increasing cost of decent equipment, just as "audiophile stereo" in the past and I fear that these escalating costs will scare many possible newcomers away from our hobby and it too may suffer a slow lingering death and stagnation of the introduction of new and innovative technologies at an affordable cost to the average working person.
> ...


 
  
 Here here!!
  
 This is just where forums like this come in; they're (mostly) real people, with real budgets, giving real opinions. Gone are the days when we had to rely on the reviewers and publications, who had a vested interest, basically lying to us for their own personal gain!
  
 The free flow of information is what gets us to the truth. And the truth is that you don't have to pay mega-bucks to get real hifi. (Rant over)


----------



## FlySweep

liu junyuan said:


> Thank you Flysweep. It was your post that swayed me toward the H10, as I was planning on the G109 for a long time. I am very happy with this amp!


 
  
 You're welcome!  I'm very happy to see the H10 is working out for you!  My memory is fuzzy when going back to when I had the G109, but I feel confident stating the H10 offers better refinement, resolution, micro- & macro-dynamics, and smoother treble than the G109.  You made the right choice!
  
 I think I read that you have a BH Crack coming in, right?  If so.. you're in for a treat there, too.. make sure you get the speedball.. and one of the first (easy) aftermarket mods I recommend on it is to upgrade the stock volume pot to something like an Alps RK27 ("Blue Velvet"), too.  I had a custom built Crack (with lot of upgraded stuff) way back when and it remains one of my most cherished amps in this journey..heck, I might get it again!


----------



## LancerFIN

Well damn. My X12 and H10 are different color. H10 is black almost looks like powder coated. X12 is gun metal gray and smooth.


----------



## auvgeek

A few people heard the Gustard H10 at the DC-area meet yesterday, and it was very well received. Many of the people who heard it couldn't believe the price tag.
  
 I also had the chance to hear it out of the Gungnir instead of my Audio-gd Compass, and that made a HUGE difference. I liked how dynamic that DAC is; I particularly love how hard the percussion hits. I'm not sure if I want to go for the Gungnir (maybe wait for the inevitable Uber upgrade), a vintage Theta, or the X20, but I'm now convinced my DAC is limiting the amp's potential at the moment. Edit: it would probably sound much better if I fed it via coax from a U12 instead of optical from my Macbook, but I'd rather just get a DAC with integrated USB and avoid a separate USB converter.
  
 PS. The Bottlehead Crack + speedball is on sale for $300 'till April 17. I'm really considering it, but I think I'd rather save for a new DAC and the H20.


----------



## Arnotts

lancerfin said:


> Well damn. My X12 and H10 are different color. H10 is black almost looks like powder coated. X12 is gun metal gray and smooth.


 

 Never seen pics of a gun metal grey version. Mine is the exact same colour as my H10. Weird o_o


auvgeek said:


> A few people heard the Gustard H10 at the DC-area meet yesterday, and it was very well received. *Many of the people who heard it couldn't believe the price tag.*
> 
> I also had the chance to hear it out of the Gungnir instead of my Audio-gd Compass, and that made a HUGE difference. I liked how dynamic that DAC is; I particularly love how hard the percussion hits. I'm not sure if I want to go for the Gungnir (maybe wait for the inevitable Uber upgrade), a vintage Theta, or the X20, but I'm now convinced my DAC is limiting the amp's potential at the moment. Edit: it would probably sound much better if I fed it via coax from a U12 instead of optical from my Macbook, but I'd rather just get a DAC with integrated USB and avoid a separate USB converter.
> 
> PS. The Bottlehead Crack + speedball is on sale for $300 'till April 17. I'm really considering it, but I think I'd rather save for a new DAC and the H20.


 
  
 I still can't believe it. V200 level or BETTER quality for <$400.


----------



## LancerFIN

Difference is a lot bigger than it looks in the photo. I love to finish on X12. Too bad H10 does not match.


----------



## stuartmc

lancerfin said:


> Well damn. My X12 and H10 are different color. H10 is black almost looks like powder coated. X12 is gun metal gray and smooth.


 
 My X12 is the same as yours. I was a little disappointed at first that they didn't match, but now I'm ok with it.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> I must concur with our esteemed "Captain Guinea Pig" of the SS Gustard. Welcome aboard!
> Having recently read much of the coverage of recent headphone "events" I must admit to a growing concern that our beloved hobby is headed down the same track that "audiophile stereo" has traversed.
> As testimony of this I call your attention to the fact that "our" events now have speaker rooms/demo areas??What? I thought this was head-fi.
> Another concern is the ever increasing cost of decent equipment, just as "audiophile stereo" in the past and I fear that these escalating costs will scare many possible newcomers away from our hobby and it too may suffer a slow lingering death and stagnation of the introduction of new and innovative technologies at an affordable cost to the average working person.
> ...


 
 I am right with you on this dear Bosun.  The principal reason for my long hiatus from high-end audio was the ever escalating prices and an elitist mindset that seemed to take over a lot of folks in the "hobby."  The problem was that instead of being just a hobby, to many people, it became almost a religion worshiping a false God. As a person of faith, I was troubled by this and particularly the way some were so obsessed that they were spending money like water when they really couldn't afford to.  I am not always a great steward of my finances, but what I witnessed was getting just ridiculous.  The reason I have returned to high-end audio in the personal hifi arena was because I saw a real difference in the attitudes of the manufacturers and especially that of the enthusiasts.  It's still a lot better than what I lived through in the big rig glory days, but I too see signs of creeping audiophilia nervosa.


----------



## LancerFIN

stuartmc said:


> My X12 is the same as yours. I was a little disappointed at first that they didn't match, but now I'm ok with it.


 
 "that's a relief". I thought I was the first one since no one else commented about the different finishes. I am not going to lose my sleep over it. Sure matching set would be nice but it's not too bad.


----------



## pippen99

Did anyone here attend Canjam Socal and listen to the Cavalli Liquid Carbon.  I would like a comparison to the H10 if possible.  The Liquid Carbon goes on sale tomorrow for a limited production run at $599.  It's rated at 1500Mw output.  Is that enough to run LCD-2f adequately?


----------



## bavinck

lancerfin said:


> "that's a relief". I thought I was the first one since no one else commented about the different finishes. I am not going to lose my sleep over it. Sure matching set would be nice but it's not too bad.


 
 For the price and how good they sound I would be able to live with neon pink and gun metal


----------



## Feel-Like-Ninja

Just received my H10 ! Initial impression is that it's pretty heavy xD. Coming from a fiio e10 it definitely sounds good, soundstage is better and instrument separation is great. Would love to see what this thing can do after it's burnt in.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

stuartmc said:


> I am right with you on this dear Bosun.  The principal reason for my long hiatus from high-end audio was the ever escalating prices and an elitist mindset that seemed to take over a lot of folks in the "hobby."  The problem was that instead of being just a hobby, to many people, it became almost a religion worshiping a false God. As a person of faith, I was troubled by this and particularly the way some were so obsessed that they were spending money like water when they really couldn't afford to.  I am not always a great steward of my finances, but what I witnessed was getting just ridiculous.  The reason I have returned to high-end audio in the personal hifi arena was because I saw a real difference in the attitudes of the manufacturers and especially that of the enthusiasts.  It's still a lot better than what I lived through in the big rig glory days, but I too see signs of creeping audiophilia nervosa.




This is a very important post.


----------



## Joong

indeed.


----------



## swannie007

Right now I am listening to my Gustard stack that comprises the U12, X10 and H10 with my HE400i's and I can't imagine how much more improvement can be realised without spending an obscene amount of money. 
 Perhaps we fool ourselves and imagine an improvement when we spend more money because psychologically we need/want to justify our expenditure.
 I, for one, am quite happy with my gear and really can't tell much difference/improvement between my desktop dac/amp combos even though some cost quite a bit more than others. To be fair, they do sound different, but better...? who knows, not to my ears, and that's what it's all about, buy what sounds good to you, forget all the hype and the bloated price tags and just enjoy the music! After all, that's what it's all about, THE MUSIC, not the equipment.
 So, try to ignore the siren song of the new/better/expensive gear and spend more on the music content as equipment will come and go but music endures and will continue to give pleasure for many more years than a piece of gear.
 I love Captain Guinea Pigs' term, "Audiophilia Nervosa", it's right on the money! Bravo Captain.
 Cheers from OZ and enjoy the music.


----------



## Lohb

pippen99 said:


> Did anyone here attend Canjam Socal and listen to the Cavalli Liquid Carbon.  I would like a comparison to the H10 if possible.  The Liquid Carbon goes on sale tomorrow for a limited production run at $599.  It's rated at 1500Mw output.  Is that enough to run LCD-2f adequately?


 

 LOL, more than enough. I can drive my 2.1 LCD (hardest LCD to drive) @ volume point 4-5 on a 1 watt (1000mWatt) portable amp.


----------



## Feel-Like-Ninja

I have a question guys. Do I keep the amp always on? Or do I turn it off after use? Will it get damaged if I keep it running permanently?


----------



## LancerFIN

feel-like-ninja said:


> I have a question guys. Do I keep the amp always on? Or do I turn it off after use? Will it get damaged if I keep it running permanently?


Leaving it on does not damage it. Turning it on and off does more harm. But as it's class A amp it draws a lot of power even when it's not outputting any sound


----------



## Arnotts

It sounds better when it's warm (seriously), so I just always leave the the H10 and X12 on.


----------



## Gibalok

Did anybody have a chance to compare h10 and wa6se. I have a chance to get one for my secondary system. I also plan to use it LCD2 and HE560. What should i expect in terms of sound signature, dynamics, bass ?


----------



## Rayoki

Hey guys,


 I picked up the H10 and while it's a terrific amp I missed the richness of the tube sound i could reach with my lyr (plus the endless money pit that is tube rolling).
  
 So if you're interested in picking one up stateside for cheap then shoot me a message and we can work something out.
  
  
*If this is against the spirit of the thread let me know and I'll delete this post*, I'd post this over in the classifieds but I haven't met the 15 post minimum this forum is a bit intimidating.


----------



## bavinck

rayoki said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> I picked up the H10 and while it's a terrific amp I missed the richness of the tube sound i could reach with my lyr (plus the endless money pit that is tube rolling).
> ...


 
 Let it break in for a couple weeks before deciding. Many here speak highly of the h10 compared to the lyr post-burn in.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

This amp is so awesome with the HE-500s.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> This amp is so awesome with the HE-500s.



Yup. Your going to wish you kept that cable


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Yup. Your going to wish you kept that cable




Nope I dont need it. I only bought it for the length. I already have a shorter cable that serves me better closer to the desktop.


----------



## DecentLevi

stuartmc said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hello to the mastermind Mr. StuartMC
  
 I'm planning to get the Gustard X12 soon. First, regarding your mod with the damping material feet.
 * Are you confident that this actually improved the sound quality or do you think it could have been a placebo effect? And if you think you may be able to sell me a copy of your mod, then please PM me.
  
 Next a question for you or anybody, about upgrades:
 * Do you think a Schiit Wyrd (USB voltage stabilizer thing) would help to further improve the sound quality of the X12?
 * Also do you think a USB cable upgrade, such as with the Wireworld Ultraviolet USB cable, or do you think the USB cable it comes with is already optimal? 
  
Thanks everybody!


----------



## Arnotts

The H10 + X12 ---> LCD-X's + SubPac right now is just amazing. 
  
 I was just listening to the HD800's from the M-Stage stack, and the Gustard stack makes the LCD-X's sound like they're in a whole new league compared to the HD800's.
  
 Some people consider the M-Stage amp one of the best for the HD800's below $1000... Oh how times have changed.


----------



## Zulkr9

Do you have the mstate in class a bias


----------



## JoeDoe

liu junyuan said:


> This amp is so awesome with the HE-500s.




My H10 should arrive today! Will be using it with my 500s as well...


----------



## Joong

Let us know your impression.
 The parcel does not require your signature, so that you might be alerted until it arrives...sorry. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 It was good with HE-6, and will be even better with you HE-500.


----------



## auvgeek

decentlevi said:


> Hello to the mastermind Mr. StuartMC
> 
> I'm planning to get the Gustard X12 soon. First, regarding your mod with the damping material feet.
> * Are you confident that this actually improved the sound quality or do you think it could have been a placebo effect? And if you think you may be able to sell me a copy of your mod, then please PM me.


 
 What do you mean by "sell me a copy of your mod?" He listed the feet he used; you can buy them and install them yourself. Unless you can find them on sale somewhere, the best price I could find was $20/foot = $80 total. I'm tempted, too, but for that money I'd think I'd spend a bit more and try the Mad Scientist Blackpod footers. But there are upgrades I'd do first (namely power cords)...or just take my girl out to dinner.


----------



## LancerFIN

What is the idea behind of different feet having any effect on sound quality other than hocus pocus?
  
 I tried HQplayer. No noticeable difference in sound quality and the software itself is very bad. License is 150 euros. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll rather use free software that is better.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

joedoe said:


> My H10 should arrive today! Will be using it with my 500s as well...




Leave your amp on and run music through it constantly at normal volume for several days. Of course, listen to it. 

I was not impressed with the amp until the fourth day. On the second day, I wanted to sell it. Now, I really enjoy it. The only problem I am having is that I am staying up too late listening to music.


----------



## JoeDoe

H10 in the house!


----------



## stuartmc

liu junyuan said:


> Leave your amp on and run music through it constantly at normal volume for several days. Of course, listen to it.
> 
> I was not impressed with the amp until the fourth day. On the second day, I wanted to sell it. Now, I really enjoy it. The only problem I am having is that I am staying up too late listening to music.



Ha ha....and yet another one who, like me, wanted to practically hang themselves with their interconnects on or about day two. Yes, I actually did write that many months ago. Many of us have said this, but it bears repeating for those without the time to read the whole thread - the H10 has one of the most jekyl and Hyde break in transformations you will ever hear in a headphone amp.


----------



## JoeDoe

liu junyuan said:


> Leave your amp on and run music through it constantly at normal volume for several days. Of course, listen to it.
> 
> I was not impressed with the amp until the fourth day. On the second day, I wanted to sell it. Now, I really enjoy it. The only problem I am having is that I am staying up too late listening to music.


 
  


stuartmc said:


> Ha ha....and yet another one who, like me, wanted to practically hang themselves with their interconnects on or about day two. Yes, I actually did write that many months ago. Many of us have said this, but it bears repeating for those without the time to read the whole thread - the H10 has one of the most jekyl and Hyde break in transformations you will ever hear in a headphone amp.


 

 Does this apply to me if I'm the second owner?


----------



## Joong

The transportation invites mechanical loading and passing through different climate does environmental loadings on any machine.
 Everything can be deviated from originally broken-in position.
  
 The break-in process means a stabilization process of electro-mechanical machine like H10, which has chemicals in capacitors and chips and transistors, and mechanicals in potentiometers and connections.
 In theorectially maybe yes, even though your machine had been used in different locations.
 It was my best amp for He-6 and LCD-2.2.


----------



## JoeDoe




----------



## stuartmc

decentlevi said:


> Hello to the mastermind Mr. StuartMC
> 
> I'm planning to get the Gustard X12 soon. First, regarding your mod with the damping material feet.
> * Are you confident that this actually improved the sound quality or do you think it could have been a placebo effect? And if you think you may be able to sell me a copy of your mod, then please PM me.
> ...


 
  Howdy Levi.  I think I explained fairly well in the original piece you quoted the reason why changing feet "may" change the sound characteristics for the better or for the worse.  I have lots and lots of blocks/cones/ feet at my disposal and they are sorbathane, ceramic, carbon and I think even unobtainium.  My past experiments have given me rather solid empirical evidence that they really do make the music sound different when the equipment is perched on them.  In the case of the H10 and X12, the sorbathane was awful- much too much lower midrange bloat and a de-focusing of the soundstage. The ceramics went the opposite direction - rather thin sounding and an edginess in the treble that might have been confused for hyper-focus.  The black diamond cones in the number "3" configuration sounded just right to me with the number "2's" being pretty much indistinguishable.   In my setup, the cone tips are nestled into Golden Sound's DH Squares, which again will change the overall sound characteristics slightly.  This is what it looks like -

  
 As to whether there is for me a placebo effect..... I would have to say no. In some high resolution applications, I can plainly hear the differences. This setup happens to be one of them. Now, to see if you can hear the differences in your system, I would suggest a simple, expense free experiment.  Take some wood blocks, marbles, or any other disparate materials, and place them under your H10, so that it is supported by them and not the stock plastic feet. If you can hear a difference, you can now confidently play with more serious alternative feet and know that you aren't completely wasting your money.  
  
 After hearing this difference many times, I came up with my own causative theory.  Every substance on earth has a unique resonance frequency (vibration), heck even sub-atomic particles do. On the macro scale, we have all kinds of parts inside the amplifiers, interconnected, resonance-wise, by a metal case and pcb board. We have an electrical signal, corresponding to a frequency response (again a form of vibration), passing through all of this and if the collective resonant signature of all these interconnected parts can add to, subtract from, or cancel out, even a minute portion of that signal, we will have changed the corresponding frequency response.
  
 If you still want to give this a go, send me a PM and we can talk about getting you some black diamond cones.


----------



## olek

Just to make my life more difficult, Massdrop listened to my plea from the past and (re) introduced drop for CEntrance Dacmini CX, priced same as X12.
  
 Now I got to choose between X12 and Dacmini. And they were both on my short list. Damn you, Massdrop. Obvious differences are size and 'free' headphone amp in the smaller one. X12 would look better with H10 (plus balanced interconnects), and Dacmini likely will have higher WAF.
  
 Any comments on sound quality/differences from those fortunate to have heard both of them? Both seems to be pretty respected which makes choice rather uncertain.
  
 Oh, and I think I can see HD800 in my (far) future, if that matters at all.


----------



## swannie007

Further to "Captain" Guinea Pigs' missive, I owned some nice stereo gear some years back made by an outfit called "Audio Refinement" , a less expensive version of a very expensive French manufacturers' gear. This particular gear was assembled in China with the same components but much cheaper production costs with resultant savings passed on to the consumer. Anyway, the long winded point I am trying to convey is that they mounted all of their component boards on vibration damping devices to try and eliminate some of the generated, and inherent, frequencies from propagating through the whole electronics assembly and thus causing distortion to the signals in those circuits.
 I must say that this is a very well respected audio company and if they took the time, and spent the research dollars, to try and eliminate these vibrations, then I think that this is proof, at least to me, that there is something to all this business about trying to eliminate these unwanted vibrations/frequencies.
 Cheers from Oz.


----------



## DecentLevi

That's interesting, I've never heard of the CEntrance Dacmini CX yet. What type of DAC chip does it use, and what is a WAF?
  
 Also is there anybody here, or possible @stuartmc, who knows if USB stabilizers such as Wyrd, or upgraded USB cables would help further rfine the sound quality of the X12? (I have mine on order and need to know which if any upgrades I should get to add on). Thanks guys


----------



## Lohb

So will the new balanced Gustard amp be 'dual-mono' topology ? Are there different topology routes to being classed as balanced and 'true' balanced.. ?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> That's interesting, I've never heard of the CEntrance Dacmini CX yet. What type of DAC chip does it use, and what is a WAF?
> 
> Also is there anybody here, or possible @stuartmc
> , who knows if USB stabilizers such as Wyrd, or upgraded USB cables would help further rfine the sound quality of the X12? (I have mine on order and need to know which if any upgrades I should get to add on). Thanks guys




It might help if your usb sucks. I use one.


----------



## swannie007

I also use one, the Gustard U12 and it definitely cleaned up my USB input and it also gives you a lot of connection options if you are using other gear as well as your Gustard stuff. Good value for money in my opinion.


----------



## swannie007

lohb said:


> So will the new balanced Gustard amp be 'dual-mono' topology ? Are there different topology routes to being classed as balanced and 'true' balanced.. ?


 

 New Gustard amp?? Please provide a link if you have one. Thanks.


----------



## Lohb

swannie007 said:


> New Gustard amp?? Please provide a link if you have one. Thanks.


 

 There is a balanced amp based off of H10 in the works as far as I know.


----------



## conquerator2

liu junyuan said:


> It might help if your usb sucks. I use one.



+1, reduces USB/PC noise to an acceptably low level.


----------



## JoeDoe

Ahoy gentlemen, I've got a little play in the volume knob of the H10. 
  
 1. Is this normal?
  
 2. Can I tighten it up with an allen wrench?
  
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## olek

decentlevi said:


> That's interesting, I've never heard of the CEntrance Dacmini CX yet. What type of DAC chip does it use, and what is a WAF?


 
  
 Chip - AK4396, close relative of what is inside Schiit Bifrost (AK4399). Implementation is quite interesting as well, with supplied power being 're-manufactured' inside the box.
  
 WAF - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_acceptance_factor
  
 Sorry for pulling that trick on you, using it in a context where it looked like a legitimate buzzword 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 But concept itself is very real. Got kicked out of bedroom with H10 + Bifrost yesterday - combination of angular big black box and large silver soapbox has extremely low WAF, apparently.


----------



## olek

joedoe said:


> Ahoy gentlemen, I've got a little play in the volume knob of the H10.
> 
> 1. Is this normal?
> 
> ...


 

 No, that is not normal. For all my woes with volume knob, it never had any wobble or play.
 You can try to tighten the knob (gently!) with an allen wrench. Other place that might get you this trouble is inside the case, where 'volume shaft' is connected to the potentiometer with aluminium 'connector tube' that has screws on both sides, one for shaft, other for potentiometer. If one of those screws loosens, you could potentially get some slop in the knob too.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

joedoe said:


> Ahoy gentlemen, I've got a little play in the volume knob of the H10.
> 
> 1. Is this normal?
> 
> ...




Not normal. Sorry to hear that...


----------



## BassDigger

feel-like-ninja said:


> I have a question guys. Do I keep the amp always on? Or do I turn it off after use? Will it get damaged if I keep it running permanently?


 
   
 Quote:


lancerfin said:


> Leaving it on does not damage it. Turning it on and off does more harm. But as it's class A amp it draws a lot of power even when it's not outputting any sound


 
  
 I'd think about this and decide for yourself, for your own listening circumstances; leaving your hifi switched on may well cause damage.
  
 I used to be in the always leaving hifi on (if there's no standby) camp. As many notice, usually always, the equipment will sound better after it's been on for a while; some say a DAC needs weeks to fully 'warm up'!!
 But my mind was changed by the guy who modified (built) my music player. He said his 'bread and butter' work was changing capacitors in equipment that people had left 'always on'; particularly the Arcam range of CD players that had their DACs permanently connected, bypassing the on/off switch.
  
 So, I'd think about how much you want to leave your stuff switched on, when you're not actually listening. I personally just give some warm up time by preempting my listening. When I forget to do this, yes I usually do notice a change in the sound (I've yet to get a H10); the first 5 mins can be pretty rough!
  
 Regarding class A operation: it uses maximum power at zero output; the bigger the output signal, the less the power requirements and the cooler it will run, strangely enough.


----------



## auvgeek

Do you mean rotational or translational play? Mine has a couple mm of play in it translationally in every direction, but it doesn't affect the volume control at all.


----------



## JoeDoe

auvgeek said:


> Do you mean rotational or translational play? Mine has a couple mm of play in it translationally in every direction, but it doesn't affect the volume control at all.


 

 It was rotational. I was able to find an appropriate allen wrench to tighten her up. I opened the amp up before I found the wrench to see if it was a potentiometer issue and noticed that ever so slightly. the truss rod is crooked. It translates into a section between 10-12 o'clock being slightly smoother than the rest of the turn. Nothing to be done about that. Oh well!


----------



## Joong

I thought it was normal, considering the long shaft volume knob which might have some back lash due to the sleeve and the shaft being loosened at time of assembly.
 Sorry Joe.


----------



## olek

That shaft is held with ball bearings at the side of volume knob, and the ball bearing is being tightly pressed into drilled out cavity by heads of 2 screws. Tolerances there are all very tight on my H10, and there is no play at all (feels rock solid), which is probably why it starts to bind so easily with the slightest misalignment (maybe I should try to introduce some slop there!). I would say that this design of volume shaft requires a bit more precision in assembly than manufacturing facility was able to provide.


----------



## olek

> Originally Posted by *BassDigger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> He said his 'bread and butter' work was changing capacitors in equipment that people had left 'always on'; particularly the Arcam range of CD players that had their DACs permanently connected, bypassing the on/off switch.
> 
> ...
> ...


 
  
 Your technician was correct: capacitors (electrolytic) are rated for their expected (pessimistically, I guess) life time, and here is the fun part - normal capacitors are rated for 3-4k hours, there are some that are designed to last 7-10k hours (but are typically unfit for audio applications), but if you look at high audio grade capacitors (like Nichicon KZ series, or even FG), they are rated for only 1-2k hours. You can't have it all I guess.
  
 I see that 'life time' as a fairly pessimistic outlook, and capacitors usually last much longer than that - with diminished capacity and other properties drifting from specs, yes. Still, electrolytic capacitor life time is limited, otherwise manufacturers would not spec that out. Oh, and I forgot to mention - in environment hotter than 85F, expected life time drops quite quickly. And those class A amplifiers tend to run quite hot (they pretty much consume same current/power during both idle and full load, it is only that during full load some of that energy is being dissipated outside of amplifier).
  
 Of course, if you do not turn on your equipment at all, those same capacitors will dry out and go kaput on you as well. And if you turn it on and off constantly, you equipment will eventually die from inrush of current. Looking at it realistically - one thing is certain - and that is any equipment is going to fail at some point. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I typically keep equipment ON for initial burn in period, but after that turn it off when it is not going to be used for more than couple hours. Finding my way between Scylla and Charybdis, so to say.


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> That shaft is held with ball bearings at the side of volume knob, and the ball bearing is being tightly pressed into drilled out cavity by heads of 2 screws. Tolerances there are all very tight on my H10, and there is no play at all (feels rock solid), which is probably why it starts to bind so easily with the slightest misalignment (maybe I should try to introduce some slop there!). I would say that this design of volume shaft requires a bit more precision in assembly than manufacturing facility was able to provide.


 
 Actually, I think their quality control issue with the volume knob/potentiometer  assembly is probably within the acceptable range for most manufacturers.  There are quite a few H10's in the field and it seems that very few have this issue.  It's a very nice functional design.  The amp is VERY similar in design to the Violectric V200, but they shortened the signal path considerably by mounting the potentiometer at the back of the board.  This of course necessitated the long connecting shaft to the front mounted volume control. It costs more to do this and creates some potential mechanical problems that would have not otherwise existed.  I applaud Gustard's engineers for doing this.


----------



## olek

Oh, do not get me wrong, I like the fact that potentiometer is left at the back of the enclosure to keep signal paths short - and this likely attributes to the awesome sound H10 is producing. It is just that this design is finicky and requires more precision and effort to execute it right, and being one of the people affected by the issue skews my outlook on quality a bit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Overall I think we are in violent agreement, and I applaud Gustard's engineers for choosing this design. It is just their manufacturer needs to kick up QC on that particular subsystem a notch.


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> Overall I think we are in *violent agreement*,


 
  
 At least our agreement is merely violent and not appalling or heinous. LOL


----------



## LancerFIN

Anyone encountered problems with USB? I tried all of my USB cables and different USB ports. Nothing.


----------



## Arnotts

lancerfin said:


> Anyone encountered problems with USB? I tried all of my USB cables and different USB ports. Nothing.


 
 Did you install the XMOS drivers that came on the mini-cd? If you didn't get a mini-cd, download the drivers here: http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntNXwN3
 The download button is the one that says (1.2M) and is just above the thumbs up sign near the top right.


----------



## LancerFIN

Uh. Of course not. I wasn't going to use USB so I left it in the box and didn't remember it at all.  Will try after I get home.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Haha you noob.


----------



## conquerator2

99% of DACs require external [manufacturer's] drivers with Windows. The disc was included with your X12


----------



## LancerFIN

conquerator2 said:


> 99% of DACs require external [manufacturer's] drivers with Windows. The disc was included with your X12


 

  
 If I said I am actually pretty competent with this stuff I probably wouldn't be very convincing.
  
 But yeah. I started working on Monday after 3.5 months of being unemployed. Didn't sleep at all on Sunday - Monday night and after that less than 6 hours per night. Sleep deprivation is serious thing. Some problems trying to adjust after 3.5 months of not giving two ****s about time.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Im glad you got it working and congratulations in finding employment!


----------



## bavinck

I've been burning on my h10 for the last 30hrs or so, curious to see tonight if I notice any change in sound....


----------



## No_One411

Guys, while the amp does improve drastically over time with burn-in, you should still take some time to listen to it in between. 
  
 It's a journey, one which you should enjoy. 
  
 I wasn't really impressed with the amp until one day it kinda just "clicked". It's really hard to tell any difference if you don't have a baseline for how it sounds. 
  
 Thanks to those who were willing to take the leap of faith with us. You're in for quite a treat.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Yeah this amp is odd in this way. But I still would listen to it on the way. Keep your ears open for around day 4 of burn-in.


----------



## olek

Yes, day 4 is a real eye-opener, but please do keep listening along the way, it makes it more fun!
  
 By the way, after trying my new K553 headphones on my amplifiers, I found that they sound the best on ... H10. It just takes those already fairly smooth headphones and cranks smoothness to the next level. And they were not supposed to respond all that much to amplification, right.


----------



## bavinck

I'm almost 50hrs in and the sound is just ok. I think it has gotten worse since day one. The bass is lacking and it sounds too closed in. However, I have read about you guys experiencing this so I will work to 200hrs and hope big changes do indeed occur.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I almost sold mine on the second and third days. seriously. I was dead set on going for a Meier amp.


----------



## Lohb

This amp sounds like a prime candidate to settle hardware burn-in DBT /electrochemical settling from what you guys are reporting on first 200 hours.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Actually, now that I think about it, the amp sounded worse to me on day 2 and 3 than in day 1.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> Actually, now that I think about it, the amp sounded worse to me on day 2 and 3 than in day 1.




Thanks for the hope, if it stays like this I won't be happy long term. I swear it is worse than it was 30 hrs ago.


----------



## lukeap69

Really? That's news to me. Hope it turns out well


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Thanks for the hope, if it stays like this I won't be happy long term. I swear it is worse than it was 30 hrs ago.


 
  
 On day 2, it sounded overly dark, congested, and two-dimensional. The detail was always present, but the image that came in my mind was of music playing in a dim-lit room, which was especially apparent switching back and forth between my other amps. 
  
 For some reason on day 4 what had before been muddled had since become extra layers added to the music. I noticed that those who put the H10 up for sale did so on like the first or second day of receiving it. 
  
 You might want to look into upgrading your DAC, though. The Modi 1 was a major bottleneck in my system for like 6 months. The Modi 2 Uber is a huge upgrade over it as it sounds nearly indistinguishable from the $550 Bifrost Uber, which is a fantastic DAC.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

bavinck said:


> liu junyuan said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, now that I think about it, the amp sounded worse to me on day 2 and 3 than in day 1.
> ...


 

 The bass that I am hearing is deep and taut, but not in any way exaggerated.  This is an amp that is on the warm side of neutral, but is
 not in any way "bass heavy".  I have bass heavy cans and those that are not and the H10 clearly shows them for what they are.  IMO, what
 it does is establish a firm grip on the drivers in the bass region.   If you turn it off, it does take a few minutes for the sound to come back up to speed...but I'm used to tubes amps, so this seems fairly normal for me.
 Hibuck....


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> On day 2, it sounded overly dark, congested, and two-dimensional. The detail was always present, but the image that came in my mind was of music playing in a dim-lit room, which was especially apparent switching back and forth between my other amps.
> 
> For some reason on day 4 what had before been muddled had since become extra layers added to the music. I noticed that those who put the H10 up for sale did so on like the first or second day of receiving it.
> 
> You might want to look into upgrading your DAC, though. The Modi 1 was a major bottleneck in my system for like 6 months. The Modi 2 Uber is a huge upgrade over it as it sounds nearly indistinguishable from the $550 Bifrost Uber, which is a fantastic DAC.



I just ordered an x12, so that should be here in about a month from Tiiawan. I think the modi is my bottle neck.


----------



## olek

Modi, coupled with H10, is definitely a bottleneck, although ... do not expect get stronger bass from upgrading DAC. Better lows extension? Yes. Better bass texture? Yes. Stronger bass? Mmm... not likely, Modi is not particularly lacking in bass quantity.
  
 Lets hope that it is not just H10's signature that does not work for you. It is one gentle amplifier - in both lows and highs. Somebody compared it to a 'velvet glove', and the more I listen to it, the more I agree. Listening now to the NAD 1020 I have recapped this morning, and while it sounds great, it is quite different character - slight 'fun' 'v-curve' makes for more aggressive sound, and it is quite different from H10 (not bad actually, but different). If you are after this kind of sound, H10 might not be for you. You will see soon enough for yourself, as burn-in progresses.


----------



## bavinck

Bass depth and texture is probably a better description of what I am hoping for. Moar bass I would need to look at headphones.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck Just curious, what gain setting were you using for which headphones? I prefer at least +6 for each of mine, and this is especially important for the K7XX.


----------



## Koolpep

Hi Guys,
  
 just introducing myself here.
  
@lukeap69 was so kind in selling me his Gustard H10 - and I love it. 
  
 Am currently using it with LCD-2F, HD650, HE-400 and man am I impressed. Especially with the HE-400 - to be honest I was a bit underwhelmed at first. It had potential but I never really liked it that much, even with grill mod and focus pads, had a bit of buyers remorse. Especially the very dry bass. Not anymore....
  
 Suddenly this headphone is more than I could ask for. Of course the LCD-2 sings with this amp as well as the HD650. 
  
 I am a happy camper and the amp is already fully burned in - so I am not having any ups and downs - just pure audio bliss. I am feeding it from a CEntrance DACMini CX at home. 
  
 Love this amp.
 By the way, the HE-560 also sounds amazing on it. though it does not scale as massively as the others with this amp.
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## Liu Junyuan

koolpep said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> just introducing myself here.
> 
> ...




Welcome. I am glad you are enjoying the amp. I believe Arnold sold it because he purchased a Ragnarok. 

I am curious as to why you find the HE-400 to scale the best with it. Why not the LCD-2?


----------



## Koolpep

liu junyuan said:


> Welcome. I am glad you are enjoying the amp. I believe Arnold sold it because he purchased a Ragnarok.
> 
> I am curious as to why you find the HE-400 to scale the best with it. Why not the LCD-2?


 
  
 Hi!
  
 thanks for the welcome 
  
 Yes Arnold needed space, lucky me!!
  
 I might not have expressed that very well. The LCD-2 also benefits from this amp and sounds absolutely its best with it (from my experience so far). But what I meant with "scale well" for the HE-400 was that the difference with this amp compared to the amps I used before is WAY bigger than with the LCD-2. Meaning the LCD-2 was already sounding very good at my other amps, while the HE-400 didn't. So the difference this amp made to the HE-400 was bigger. The LCD-2 sounds way better than the HE-400 but the H10 made a bigger difference in my mind to the HE-400. The LCD-2 already sounded breathtaking on my Gloveaudio A1 with a balanced Norne audio cable... 
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## lukeap69

For the record, I was selling my Lyr 2. @Koolpep was also interested with thr H10 so he brought both amps home to compare. Long story short, the Lyr came back to me and the H10 remained with Ralf. I only agreed because Ralf is a friend...

Yeah, lucky you Ralf!


----------



## Koolpep

lukeap69 said:


> For the record, I was selling my Lyr 2. @Koolpep was also interested with thr H10 so he brought both amps home to compare. Long story short, the Lyr came back to me and the H10 remained with Ralf. I only agreed because Ralf is a friend...
> 
> Yeah, lucky you Ralf!


----------



## DecentLevi

pippen99 said:


> Did anyone here attend Canjam Socal and listen to the Cavalli Liquid Carbon.  I would like a comparison to the H10 if possible.  The Liquid Carbon goes on sale tomorrow for a limited production run at $599.  It's rated at 1500Mw output.  Is that enough to run LCD-2f adequately?


 
 You would probably get a better posting here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/758649/canjam-socal-2015-impressions-thread
  
 For me, I tried the semi-portable Cavalli Liquid Silicon and was quite impressed, as was another authorative audio reviewer but not their larger amps.


----------



## olek

koolpep said:


> I am a happy camper and the amp is already fully burned in - so I am not having any ups and downs - just pure audio bliss. I am feeding it from a CEntrance DACMini CX at home.


 
  
 Oh, this is my lucky day! Somebody with both Dacmini and H10! How would you compare amplifier in Dacmini to H10? And how would you rate DAC part of Dacmini? And its synergy with H10? I am considering getting Dacmini, and any/all feedback is very welcome...


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> bavinck Just curious, what gain setting were you using for which headphones? I prefer at least +6 for each of mine, and this is especially important for the K7XX.



I am using +6 on my he500s exclusively. Last night, after 70 hrs, the soundstage has opened up very nicely and I am starting to get rich, deep, textured bass. The highs are detailed, and not fatiguing. So far so good


----------



## olek

@bavinck Glad that H10 is more to your liking now. Bass texture in some music should improve even more after dac upgrade (it did for me, although not uniformly, some tracks are remarkably better, some are about the same).
  
 Still, isn't it fascinating that most people indicate dramatic turn for the better around 70 hours (after 3 days)? It can't possibly be right because burn-in is a myth!


----------



## bavinck

Something is changing in the h10. I have let it run constantly for 4 days, and listening for about 1-2 hrs each day to "check in" . It went from sounding really nice right out of the box, to sounding eh, to sounding great last night! 

As an aside, I have also been convinced this week of the ability of a cable upgrade to change the sound as well. I have a silver plated cable for my iems that definitely bettered the bass response (depth and texture) of my iems. Just FYI, not trying to start a cable war!


----------



## Koolpep

olek said:


> Oh, this is my lucky day! Somebody with both Dacmini and H10! How would you compare amplifier in Dacmini to H10? And how would you rate DAC part of Dacmini? And its synergy with H10? I am considering getting Dacmini, and any/all feedback is very welcome...


 

 The DAC of the DACMini CX is really great. Detailed and musical - very neutral less bright than other equipment I have but not loosing detail. 
  
Singer Synergy with the H10 is great. I have the DACMini with the 1 Ohm mod. So that means I can use the DACMini if I need to connect low impedance IEMs of headphones (like a Momentum or a Custom one Pro etc.) for which the H10 with its 10 Ohm output impedance would not be so great. So for that I use the headphone out of the DACMini, for every other headphone I use the H10.
  
 I love the DACMini because of it's versatility - it connects to everything, COAX for my X5, optical for my AK100 and Apple TV, USB to my Computer and line in for everything else. it looks nice, feels good and the sound quality is like all CEntrance products I encountered so far, outstanding. 
  
 So from my side a clear recommendation. Massdrop currently has the DACMini CX for $389.99 at the lowest drop level and that includes the 1 Ohm mod (if you want to)....
  
 Cheers,
 K
  
 EDIT: typo that got autocorrected


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> I am using +6 on my he500s exclusively. Last night, after 70 hrs, the soundstage has opened up very nicely and I am starting to get rich, deep, textured bass. The highs are detailed, and not fatiguing. So far so good




Interesting how that happens. Your description corresponds with mine: detailed yet non- fatiguing.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Something is changing in the h10. I have let it run constantly for 4 days, and listening for about 1-2 hrs each day to "check in" . It went from sounding really nice right out of the box, to sounding eh, to sounding great last night!
> 
> As an aside, I have also been convinced this week of the ability of a cable upgrade to change the sound as well. I have a silver plated cable for my iems that definitely bettered the bass response (depth and texture) of my iems. Just FYI, not trying to start a cable war!




stuartmc needs to return and officially initiate you into swabbie status for the SS Gustard! LOL


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello @Koolpep, What were you talking about "Singer" with the H10 is great. Is that a DAC type? Also did you prefer the DACMini with the H10 better than the X12? Is so, what sonic attributes makes it better / worse? Thanks


----------



## Koolpep

decentlevi said:


> Hello @Koolpep
> , What were you talking about "Singer" with the H10 is great. Is that a DAC type? Also did you prefer the DACMini with the H10 better than the X12? Is so, what sonic attributes makes it better / worse? Thanks




Damn you autocorrect. It was supposed to be "synergy with the H10.." Sorry...

Cheers,
K


----------



## Arnotts

bavinck said:


> Something is changing in the h10. I have let it run constantly for 4 days, and listening for about 1-2 hrs each day to "check in" . It went from sounding really nice right out of the box, to sounding eh, to sounding great last night!
> 
> *As an aside, I have also been convinced this week of the ability of a cable upgrade to change the sound as well.* I have a silver plated cable for my iems that definitely bettered the bass response (depth and texture) of my iems. Just FYI, not trying to start a cable war!


 
 I'm actually very interested in everyone's input on their cable experiences. I value the opinion of people with Gustard gear in particular .
  
 I'm another one that just recently got an aftermarket cable (an AWG20 copper cable from Forza Audioworks), and I also feel like they've changed how my headphones sound. I've actually been primarily listening to the LCD-2's with the cable, and I've been enjoying the experience very much with the H10 and X12.
  
 The whole setup is exceptionally musical. Energetic, yet not fatiguing. Deep, textured bass. Engaging, emotional mids. Smooth across the frequency range, but detailed. All of these words apply to the H10 and/or X12 as well, though, so it's not necessarily the cable. But I feel like the cable might be bringing up the LCD-2's to a level closer to LCD-X's.
  
 There's never been a blind test that showed that cables DO make a difference, but our brains and the way we perceive sensory input is extremely complex!


----------



## LancerFIN

arnotts said:


> There's never been a blind test that showed that cables DO make a difference, but our brains and the way we perceive sensory input is extremely complex!


 
 Whenever I compare my FAW cable to stock I definitely hear slightly better slam in the bass. I know it shouldn't make any difference yet it's always wow experience when the drums or bass kicks for the first time after changing cables. Funny how that works.
  
 Just for fun I could try out "audiophile" power cables but nothing too expensive.


----------



## JoeDoe

Any of you fine gentlemen using a DT880 or a T90 with your H10?


----------



## lukeap69

I believe @Koolpep has T90.


----------



## Koolpep

joedoe said:


> Any of you fine gentlemen using a DT880 or a T90 with your H10?


 
  


lukeap69 said:


> I believe @Koolpep has T90.


 

 Ahhh, an edited post - I just got the first bit via email - so didn't read about the T90.
  
 Yes, Koolpep to the rescue. I indeed have one. But Gustard at home, T90 in the office - will take T90 home tomorrow (workday here already ended) and can give you my impressions. Currently the best I heard the T90 sound was with the Bottlehead Crack (with SB) I will update this thread tomorrow.
  
 I did listen briefly to the T90 with the H10 and really liked what I heard - but since that week I had like 3 new (for me) headphones lying around I focussed on the new ones....
  
 Anything in particular that you would like me to check?
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## JoeDoe

koolpep said:


> Ahhh, an edited post - I just got the first bit via email - so didn't read about the T90.
> 
> Yes, Koolpep to the rescue. I indeed have one. But Gustard at home, T90 in the office - will take T90 home tomorrow (workday here already ended) and can give you my impressions. Currently the best I heard the T90 sound was with the Bottlehead Crack (with SB) I will update this thread tomorrow.
> 
> ...


 

 Nothing in particular. Just curious to know how some of the upper end Beyerdynamics sound. heard the T1 this weekend and loved it, but it's out of my price range.


----------



## Joong

planar headphone like He500, or Lcd2.2, is way better than dynamic phones like beyer...YMMV.


----------



## Koolpep

joong said:


> planar headphone like He500, or Lcd2.2, is way better than dynamic phones like beyer...YMMV.


 

 Yep YMMV because that really depends on your taste.
  
 I have the latest LCD2, HE-400 (and the HE-560 for a week to review) and also listened to some amazing dynamic headphones like the Fostex TH900, Sennheiser HD800, Beyerdynamic T1 and others. I wouldn't call the planars leaps and bounds better....they are different. There is something about them...
  
 Especially the Beyerdynamics like the T90 and T1 also have something very special about them, for me at least. 
  
 I have a friend who has quite a nice collection LCD-X, LCD-XC, HE-6, TH900, T1 and HD800 and the best amps to drive each one. But when I asked him the question: If you could only keep one headphone, his answer was HD800. A dynamic.
  
 So, indeed. Your mileage might vary.... 
 EDIT: Just seeing that you love classic music - that might explain strong love for planars...probably is a bit genre depending, though I love my planars with electronica too...hmmm


----------



## Schopenhauer

Looks like the U12 is getting its own drop over on that group-buy site we all know and love.


----------



## Koolpep

schopenhauer said:


> Looks like the U12 is getting its own drop over on that group-buy site we all know and love.




The website that shall not be named is now allowed to be named.....

Massdrop.com, massdrop.com, massdrop.com

See, nothing is happening, I wasn't struck by lightn..zzzZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZ



Edit: Monty Python, Life of Brian reference. Since MD is now a producer of headphones (with the special K7XX) they are allowed to be named here.


----------



## Schopenhauer

koolpep said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like the U12 is getting its own drop over on that group-buy site we all know and love.
> ...


 
 Excellent! Didn't know that. And knowing is half the battle. (Name that reference.)


----------



## LancerFIN

Is HD800 with H10 and X12 worth it? I was thinking maybe I should sell my LCD2F and buy LCD2.2 and HD800. Unless I need another expensive amp to drive the HD800 well. That would require more money than I am willing to spend.


----------



## Koolpep

schopenhauer said:


> Excellent! Didn't know that. And knowing is half the battle. (Name that reference.)




The American hero? G.I.Joe....

[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/pele5vptVgc[/VIDEO]

Sorry I cheated. At that time in Germany even if it would have been on TV (I think it was) it would have been dubbed in German  and sounded less cool...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lancerfin said:


> Is HD800 with H10 and X12 worth it? I was thinking maybe I should sell my LCD2F and buy LCD2.2 and HD800. Unless I need another expensive amp to drive the HD800 well. That would require more money than I am willing to spend.




Probably not the best pairing. A highly recommended sub-$500 amp for the HD 800 is the Valhalla 2. This headphone likes tubes.


----------



## Schopenhauer

koolpep said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent! Didn't know that. And knowing is half the battle. (Name that reference.)
> ...


 
 Nailed it! It'd be interesting to hear German-dubbed G.I. Joe.


----------



## Schopenhauer

lancerfin said:


> Is HD800 with H10 and X12 worth it? I was thinking maybe I should sell my LCD2F and buy LCD2.2 and HD800. Unless I need another expensive amp to drive the HD800 well. That would require more money than I am willing to spend.


 
 I never got to try the HD800 with the H10. Sold the H10 before I got the HD800 in. I think the combo has its fans on this thread, although I don't know if I recall any stellar impressions.


----------



## olek

lancerfin said:


> Is HD800 with H10 and X12 worth it? I was thinking maybe I should sell my LCD2F and buy LCD2.2 and HD800. Unless I need another expensive amp to drive the HD800 well. That would require more money than I am willing to spend.


 
 While HD800 is definitely on my bucket list, vague memories of what was posted on 85 pages of this topic suggest that that its pairing with H10 is pretty good, but not one of the best (unlike pairing of H10 and planars, which is rumored to be stellar). My recent listening discoveries (that I am not quite ready yet to share) also make me doubt that pairing, even if I have not heard it yet. Just my ... guess - I do not know enough to qualify for actual opinion


----------



## Arnotts

It's an excellent stack for the HD800, for sure. The Gustard gear is good for feeding TOTL headphones at a reasonable price, as many have said. You get the quality of equipment that costs thousands of dollars for much less outlay .
  
 You can also kind of extrapolate how good the H10 is with headphones by looking at impressions of the Violectric V200. People on page 17 of this thread talk positively about the V200 and HD800 pairing: http://www.head-fi.org/t/480038/violectric-hpa-v200-why-not-sufficiently-appreciated/240
  
 My own impressions are very good for the HD800 + Gustard gear. A definite, significant (if you're a good active listener, which you should be as someone who is into audiophile equipment) step up from the Matrix M-Stage amp and DAC, which was once considered the best amp you could get for the HD800 < $1000.
  
 Having said that, the HD800's are my least favourite headphone, LOL. Their presentation of music is, to my ears, un-musical and unengaging for long-term listening. They present sound to the listener in a wide, airy, separated, diffuse and detailed way. Bass is VERY tight, detailed and controlled, but the sound lacks a lot of the warmth that, imo, SHOULD be in music. The sound tilts towards the brighter side of neutral. The H10 and X12 bring some extra musicality to the HD800 sound, while still keeping its strengths. They do not completely stop the sound from being analytical as this is inherent to the HD800's imo.
  
 I think of the HD800's as a precision tool. If you want to analyse music (which I often do), these are excellent. They will lay out details across a large, expansive, airy soundstage with excellent precision and imaging. I do not believe that these headphones portray the music in a way that the artist/recording engineer specifically intended, though - I think that the LCD-X's are much better for this. The HD800 have their own distinct signature sound which is evident in every song.
  
 The thing is, the LCD-2F's, while presenting music in a much more intimate, engaging way, still manage to retrieve a LOT of details and audio cues that make them truly high end headphones.
  
 Then there are the LCD-X's, which are a step up again, managing to combine the sound of the LCD-2's and the HD800's and blending them even further together.
  
 In terms of the technical proficiency of my headphones from the Gustard gear, I would say it goes like this:
  
 LCD-X = HD800 > LCD-2F
  
 In terms of enjoyment, they are all good depending on my mood, but overall it'll go a little something like this:
  
 LCD-X > LCD-2F > HD800
  
 I keep the HD800's because they offer a sound that is so different to my other headphones. Pretty much polar opposite to the Audeze sound. Good for studying music from a different perspective. I would not want them as my only pair of headphones.


----------



## vlach

arnotts said:


> It's an excellent stack for the HD800, for sure. The Gustard gear is good for feeding TOTL headphones at a reasonable price, as many have said. You get the quality of equipment that costs thousands of dollars for much less outlay .
> 
> You can also kind of extrapolate how good the H10 is with headphones by looking at impressions of the Violectric V200. People on page 17 of this thread talk positively about the V200 and HD800 pairing: http://www.head-fi.org/t/480038/violectric-hpa-v200-why-not-sufficiently-appreciated/240
> 
> ...




Well said. That's pretty much how I feel about the HD800 (I use them mostly for classical music since they can separate and disect instruments with large string orchestras), however all that air & space, while nice, comes at the expense of body, mass & density. That's where the HE500 comes in


----------



## spurxiii

vlach said:


> Well said. That's pretty much how I feel about the HD800 (I use them mostly for classical music since they can separate and disect instruments with large string orchestras), however all that air & space, while nice, comes at the expense of body, mass & density. That's where the HE500 comes in



 


Hah. Exactly why I keep my HE500s and HD800s for different music genres


----------



## fritobugger

Has anyone here opened the case to switch it from 110 to 220 or from 220 to 110?  If you have, how was this done?  Is it fairly straight forward?


----------



## lukeap69

I am one of those who said HD800 with H10 sounds good but not great. Perhaps if I didn't hear other amps with HD800, I would think that that is really the performance of HD800.

H10 is probably one of my best purchased, and although it lives now in another house, I can still say that this amp is a giant! It works wonderfully with planars.

The thing with HD800 is I have heard it with Glenn's OTL amp, Master 9, Liquid Glass, BH Mainline and of course my Ragnarok! It pairs well with all these amps. And they have different characteristics IMO. This is not the HD800 thread so I won't go into the details.


----------



## spurxiii

lukeap69 said:


> I am one of those who said HD800 with H10 sounds good but not great. Perhaps if I didn't hear other amps with HD800, I would think that that is really the performance of HD800.
> 
> H10 is probably one of my best purchased, and although it lives now in another house, I can still say that this amp is a giant! It works wonderfully with planars.
> 
> The thing with HD800 is I have heard it with Glenn's OTL amp, Master 9, Liquid Glass, BH Mainline and of course my Ragnarok! It pairs well with all these amps. And they have different characteristics IMO. This is not the HD800 thread so I won't go into the details.




Thanks I was going to buy the H10 to try with both my HD800 and HE500 which both sound wonderful with the Master 9. Do you think the H10 will drive planars better than the Master 9?


----------



## Arnotts

lukeap69 said:


> I am one of those who said HD800 with H10 sounds good but not great. Perhaps if I didn't hear other amps with HD800, I would think that that is really the performance of HD800.
> 
> H10 is probably one of my best purchased, and although it lives now in another house, I can still say that this amp is a giant! It works wonderfully with planars.
> 
> The thing with HD800 is I have heard it with Glenn's OTL amp, Master 9, Liquid Glass, BH Mainline and of course my Ragnarok! It pairs well with all these amps. And they have different characteristics IMO. This is not the HD800 thread so I won't go into the details.


 

 Please do go into details, Arnold .
  
 I haven't heard the HD800's from anything other than my own gear, so I'm not aware of the shortcomings of the H10 with the HD800's. I think it would be very valuable for the thread if you explain how the other amps perform better to your ears with the Senn's when compared to the H10!


----------



## lukeap69

spurxiii said:


> Thanks I was going to buy the H10 to try with both my HD800 and HE500 which both sound wonderful with the Master 9. Do you think the H10 will drive planars better than the Master 9?




I wouldn't think so. Master 9, like my Rok, is a beast. This is not to take anything from the H10, but the Master 9 IMO is one of the best headamps out there.


----------



## spurxiii

lukeap69 said:


> I wouldn't think so. Master 9, like my Rok, is a beast. This is not to take anything from the H10, but the Master 9 IMO is one of the best headamps out there.


 
 Thanks I might give the H10 a go once I get that new job and settle into the office as work rig


----------



## lukeap69

arnotts said:


> Please do go into details, Arnold .
> 
> I haven't heard the HD800's from anything other than my own gear, so I'm not aware of the shortcomings of the H10 with the HD800's. I think it would be very valuable for the thread if you explain how the other amps perform better to your ears with the Senn's when compared to the H10!




Okay, I will write a summary as I don't like writing too much on my smartphone.

These are IME and IMO...

The H10 can drive the HD800 but for me not to its full potential. There was no magic with this pairing. Not to my ears.

The Rag controls the highs very well. It doesn't have the bottom end slam as Glenn's amp for example but the bass is tight, controlled and present. Soudstage is excellent, instrument separation, resolution, etc are all excellent.

I've also heard the HD800 with the following amps in a private meet.

Glenn's amp - bottom end slam is excellent as well as the soundstage and imaging. The highs are very present but not as smooth as the Rok and Master 9. There was this holographic presentation that I felt when I listened to this amp. Very nice.

Master 9 - similar to my Rok. Smooth treble, very good soundstage, tight bass and not boomy. I can live with just Master 9 or Rok as my only amp... Really.

Cavalli Liquid Glass - fantastic all around. What can I say? I guess my ears were very tired when I tried this amp but still delivers a very high performance. I wouldn't call this my favourite though.

BH Mainline - again, a fantastic amp for the HD800. There was one thing which is weird though. The instruments placement seemed odd. Those instruments I normally hear in the right side of my head appeared neared or on the centre. This is the only amp that gave me that feeling. Weird...

Of course, YMMV.


----------



## fritobugger

Sorry to double post but am I missing something? Is this an auto switching voltage unit or do you have to crack the case to switch it manually?


----------



## stuartmc

fritobugger said:


> Sorry to double post but am I missing something? Is this an auto switching voltage unit or do you have to crack the case to switch it manually?



You do need to crack open the case to switch it. Once open, you simply flip the two switchs between the transformers. They are clearly marked 110/220.


----------



## BassDigger

koolpep said:


> ...The LCD-2 also benefits from this amp and sounds absolutely its best with it (from my experience so far). But what I meant with "scale well" for the HE-400 was that the difference with this amp compared to the amps I used before is WAY bigger than with the LCD-2. Meaning the LCD-2 was already sounding very good at my other amps, while the HE-400 didn't. So the difference this amp made to the HE-400 was bigger. The LCD-2 sounds way better than the HE-400 but the H10 made a bigger difference in my mind to the HE-400. The LCD-2 already sounded breathtaking on my Gloveaudio A1 with a balanced Norne audio cable...
> 
> Cheers,
> K


 
  
  
 Hi Koolpep, it's interesting to read your thoughts about he400 and lcd2 'upscaling'. I'm currently using a Beyer A1 clone (I'm not sure if that's what your Gloveaudio A1 is), and I've found the difference between he400 and LCD2 to be vast, even though many say that the bass in particular is very similar between them. For me, on my system, the he400 just lacked bass body; it was all bass impact and texture, with no weight or substance. The lcd2f, on the other hand, is very nicely balanced.
  
 After reading the first page of this thread (and previously considering a V or A200), I'd already decided that a H10 is the way to go; I'll get mine in a month or two.
  
 I have no regrets about replacing the he400 with the lcd2, but maybe if I'd already got the H10 I may have kept the he400. It seems like the he400 is much harder to drive than the lcd2 (35ohms vs 75), and if my clone only has the 150mw that the real A1 has, it seems to go plenty loud, without distortion. So as I wrote in another thread (http://www.head-fi.org/t/741024/he-400-bass-not-as-present-as-i-expected), I wasn't sure what the problem was: my amp or the he400.
  
 I guess that my question is, how much, and what kind, of an improvement did the H10 make with these headphones?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## YtseJamer

The H10 is available for $379 @ Massdrop : https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10?s=gustard
  
 With 9 more commits they will unlock the lowest price! ($299)


----------



## fritobugger

Thank you very much for the clarification.


----------



## BassDigger

arnotts said:


> I'm actually very interested in everyone's input on their cable experiences. I value the opinion of people with Gustard gear in particular .
> 
> I'm another one that just recently got an aftermarket cable (an AWG20 copper cable from Forza Audioworks), and I also feel like they've changed how my headphones sound. I've actually been primarily listening to the LCD-2's with the cable, and I've been enjoying the experience very much with the H10 and X12.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Like bavinck, I really don't want to start a 'cable war' on this thread. I'll just say that the cable manufacturers are generally at fault; they vastly overprice the products they sell!
  
 Anyway, I too am interested to read about people's experiences with different cables, particularly the different kinds (copper, copper silver-plate, silver plus solid and stranded). It would help if people just stick to their actual impressions, rather than trying to explain why, or why not, a cable does, or doesn't, sound any different.
  
 Personally, I've never tried a different hp cable, but I can see that the stock lcd2 cable is not a quality item. So I'm trying to get someone to put together a CAT 5 replacement for me; 3 runs worked great for my speakers, so a single run should be good for Hphones.


----------



## Koolpep

bassdigger said:


> Hi Koolpep, it's interesting to read your thoughts about he400 and lcd2 'upscaling'. I'm currently using a Beyer A1 clone (I'm not sure if that's what your Gloveaudio A1 is), and I've found the difference between he400 and LCD2 to be vast, even though many say that the bass in particular is very similar between them. For me, on my system, the he400 just lacked bass body; it was all bass impact and texture, with no weight or substance. The lcd2f, on the other hand, is very nicely balanced.
> 
> After reading the first page of this thread (and previously considering a V or A200), I'd already decided that a H10 is the way to go; I'll get mine in a month or two.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Gloveaudio is a portable DAC amp for the AK100 DAP it only shares the same name. The gloveaudio A1 delivers 440mW via balanced output and 180mW single ended into 32 Ohms. Not enough for the HE-400
  
 The beyerdynamic A1(clone) cannot drive the HE-400 properly, it doesn't have the power. Its a great amp for the beyerdynamic headphones though as it can deliver adequate power into 250, 300 and 600 Ohms (for T90, T70, T1) but not so much in the lower Ohm ratings. The Ohm rating of the LCD-2 and HE-400 is not really the issue, the power at that Ohm ratings that the amp can deliver is.
  
 The H10 delivers in spades. Audeze says the LCD-2 needs between 1-4 W to sound it's best. Plus the voltage swing (complex stuff) that is needed. 
  
 The HE-400 is similar, I had exactly the same experience like you, I couldn't find the "amazing bass" it was very weak and dry....the more power the amp had I tried the better the HE-400 sounded. 
  
 Once I tried it balanced on a Ragnarok and Mjolnir - woooowzers - there was suddenly all the bass. I knew what I was missing and what the HE-400 can deliver.
  
 So the quest for the best bang for buck high power delivering amp ended with the H10 vs Lyr2 shootout.
  
 H10 won (for me) and here we are. It's pretty amazing what this amp can do.
  
 So in general I would say, if you have an amp that can deliver 1000-1500mW into 32 Ohms you already start to hear the potential of the HE-400 - if you go into the 2W area you are set. above that is only icing on the cake.
  

Ohm/PowerAsgard2 Valhalla2H10501000mW180mW2700mW300380mW800mW(no info, 1000mW?)600190mW450mW570mW
  
 This table is to show how some amps behave: Valhalla is made for Beyerdynamic T90/T1, HD650, HD600, HD800, sweet spot around the 300 Ohm range. H10 and Lyr 2 are made for Planars, they have plenty of power down low at 16-32 Ohm and then loose power the higher you get.
  
 Lyr2:
 50 Ohm - 4000mW
 300 Ohm - 660mW
 600 Ohm - 330mW
  
 I hope that helps. Power in mW is not everything, the voltage swing is also important - but as a rule of thumb, the more mW the amp can deliver the better for some planar magnetic headphones. As an example where this wasn't true is the HE-560 it didn't really improve much with more power...so it always depends on the headphone.
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## Schopenhauer

And now the H10 is back on Massdrop!


----------



## Koolpep

bassdigger said:


> Like bavinck, I really don't want to start a 'cable war' on this thread. I'll just say that the cable manufacturers are generally at fault; they vastly overprice the products they sell!
> 
> Anyway, I too am interested to read about people's experiences with different cables, particularly the different kinds (copper, copper silver-plate, silver plus solid and stranded). It would help if people just stick to their actual impressions, rather than trying to explain why, or why not, a cable does, or doesn't, sound any different.
> 
> Personally, I've never tried a different hp cable, but I can see that the stock lcd2 cable is not a quality item. So I'm trying to get someone to put together a CAT 5 replacement for me; 3 runs worked great for my speakers, so a single run should be good for Hphones.


 

 I bought my LCD-2f used and got 2 cables "free" with it. One is a Q-Audio French Silk cable and the other one is a Norne Audio balanced cable. There is a difference in sound and certainly in comfort. I don't use the stock cable anymore. 
  
 Here is a review of the cable for the LCD-2:
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/q-cables/reviews/5488
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ByfzP9B22Q
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## Koolpep

schopenhauer said:


> And now the H10 is back on Massdrop!


 

 +1 and for such a great price. It's worth every penny - twice.


----------



## JoeDoe

koolpep said:


> +1 and for such a great price. It's worth every penny - twice.


 

 Agreed!


----------



## Schopenhauer

joedoe said:


> koolpep said:
> 
> 
> > +1 and for such a great price. It's worth every penny - twice.
> ...


 
 Joe, I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the H10! Have you thought about giving it a review?


----------



## bavinck

I can say, for anyone reading this considering the H10, that now on day 5 of my H10 (>100 hrs burn in) it sounds absolutely amazing. Huge soundstage, detailed, non-fatiguing, and deep and textured bass. It is a wonderful amp!


----------



## JoeDoe

bavinck said:


> I can say, for anyone reading this considering the H10, that now on day 5 of my H10 (>100 hrs burn in) it sounds absolutely amazing. Huge soundstage, detailed, non-fatiguing, and deep and textured bass. It is a wonderful amp!


 

 I totally agree! I'm on day 6 and this thing is flexing all kind of muscle!


----------



## BassDigger

koolpep said:


> The Gloveaudio is a portable DAC amp for the AK100 DAP it only shares the same name. The gloveaudio A1 delivers 440mW via balanced output and 180mW single ended into 32 Ohms. Not enough for the HE-400
> 
> The beyerdynamic A1(clone) cannot drive the HE-400 properly, it doesn't have the power. Its a great amp for the beyerdynamic headphones though as it can deliver adequate power into 250, 300 and 600 Ohms (for T90, T70, T1) but not so much in the lower Ohm ratings. The Ohm rating of the LCD-2 and HE-400 is not really the issue, the power at that Ohm ratings that the amp can deliver is.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is the kind of feedback that would have helped me on the other thread (where were you? ) Most, not all, there gave the impression that amping doesn't make much difference! (I think that some of them mistook me for a basshead, rather than a bassdigger)
 What foxed me was that those planar phones didn't exhibit any of the tendencies that I'm used to e.g. when loudspeakers are driven by an under-powered amp. They went more than plenty loud; didn't distort until the amp was turned up past 3 o'clock (normal level 11-12 o'clock); and didn't seem to lose impact as the volume was increased (a tell-tale sign that an amp is running out of current); they sounded the same at the 1 o'clock position as they did at the 9 o'clock (the volume control starts at 7 o'clock); just louder! This suggests to me that planar drivers are quite different beasts to conventional dynamic transducers.
  
 Anyhow, the he400 is history for me now, but I do look forward to hearing what kind of difference the h10 will make with the lcd2f. I've just got a CAT5 cable (and the phones themselves; only about 20 hrs, so far) to burn in first. Happy times ahead!!!


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> I've just got a CAT5 cable (and the phones themselves; only about 20 hrs, so far) to burn in first. Happy times ahead!!!


 
 Do you have a link to the CAT5 cable ? I've seen this mentioned before as a great entry-level cable....(?)


----------



## BassDigger

lohb said:


> Do you have a link to the CAT5 cable ? I've seen this mentioned before as a great entry-level cable....(?)


 
  
 It's 'category 5' computer networking cable. It's a (small, but beyond my means) diy project to make these.
  
 You can buy something similar, ready-made. But it'll probably have some fancy looking outer jacket, a brand name and will cost much, MUCH more money!
  
 I'm still waiting for my cable to arrive. But if it's ok, the guy who made it may be interested in making more; he sells other cables, on ebay; that's how I found him. (Strangely, he hadn't heard of cat 5 diy audio cables. I think he's more of a businessman than a hobbyist.) I'll keep you posted.
  
 BTW, maybe we ought to start another (cable) thread. One with some very strict anti-rant and anti-antagony rules, and see how long it would last.
  
 (Still dreaming of my (future) H10!)


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> (Still dreaming of my (future) H10!)


 
 Me too, me too....


----------



## BassDigger

lohb said:


> Me too, me too....


 
  
 Hell! They may as well throw in a mail order bride, to go with it; she could keep you supplied with refreshments, during those long listening stints!


----------



## BassDigger

Quote (myself): 





bassdigger said:


> Hell! They may as well throw in a mail order bride, to go with it; she could keep you supplied with refreshments, during those long listening stints!


 
  
 Just in case I have to do some digging (NOT back-peddling), because someone may be less than impressed:
  

The term 'mail order bride' can also be read 'male order husband'.
I'm married to a lady from that part of the world, and she wasn't mail order.
  





 I hope that covers it.


----------



## bavinck

Regarding cables, I just got a couple of xlr cable from monoprice in anticipation of my incoming x12. I gotta say, for the price I paid these cables are amazing well constructed and very solid. I have always found monoprice cables amazing. Their hdmi cables are simply astounding for the price, considering what you would pay for the same quality in another brand name.


----------



## LancerFIN

bavinck said:


> Regarding cables, I just got a couple of xlr cable from monoprice in anticipation of my incoming x12. I gotta say, for the price I paid these cables are amazing well constructed and very solid. I have always found monoprice cables amazing. Their hdmi cables are simply astounding for the price, considering what you would pay for the same quality in another brand name.


 

  
 Mine from ghent audio arrived today. $16 shipped for a pair. http://www.ghentaudio.com/part/a04.html


----------



## bavinck

I got these from monoprice:
 http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=115&cp_id=11509&cs_id=1150902&p_id=4750&seq=1&format=2
  
 They look similar in quality to your ghent audio cables.


----------



## blasjw

I ended up getting Mogami Golds.  Still waiting for my X12 to be delivered from Massdrop.


----------



## genclaymore

From the pictures i seen it look like those 3 op-amps can be removed, has any one did that yet if so what was the results. I have op-amp swapped in the past with other gear but I was curious how it effected the H10. I also been thinking quite of bit of switching to the H10 from the amount of people in this thread that mention how their HE-500 sound being ran into the H10. Has any one did any comparison between the H10 and the asgard 2?  As I do see my self with a H10 some time this year, A X12 is starting to look interesting to me as well because of people talking about balance setups and the fact I doubt i would go thru the trouble of opening up my bifrost and install whatever new upgrades that come out.As my interest grows in Gustard gear as I await a modded U12 to come to me.


----------



## welding

Just committed on that Mass Drop for an H10. It should play well with the HE-500's and possibly with the AKG K7XX's  that I currently have.  It'll be interesting to compare it with my Lyr and Little Dot Mark V. The price is right for an amp of this reported performance. I think they're close to hitting their sub 300 price again?


----------



## floydfan33

I just picked one up on ebay. $349 with FREE SHIPPING to Canada. The wait begins.........


----------



## genclaymore

I also just committed as well, I couldn't pass this up as i been on my mind all week.


----------



## bavinck

floydfan33 said:


> I just picked one up on ebay. $349 with FREE SHIPPING to Canada. The wait begins.........



Ya the eBay deals are better for Canada. I got mine at the same price, then they only declared $60 on customs so I didn't pay any import fees. For the x12 I negotiated an even better deal that massdrop (including shipping) with the same eBay vendor, and I do not expect any import fees again. With massdrop I would have to pay reduliculous shipping and then get killed on import fees.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

welding said:


> Just committed on that Mass Drop for an H10. It should play well with the HE-500's and possibly with the AKG K7XX's  that I currently have.  It'll be interesting to compare it with my Lyr and Little Dot Mark V. The price is right for an amp of this reported performance. I think they're close to hitting their sub 300 price again?




It pairs very well with both of those headphones, which I also own. Details and texture are quite impressive.


----------



## Lohb

Can anyone suggest cable material + plug upgrade for H10 wall plug ? Preferably a good quality Chinese seller vs branded western $$$$$ stuff...
 Anyone using power conditioner before the amp ?


----------



## ansi

lohb said:


> Can anyone suggest cable material + plug upgrade for H10 wall plug ? Preferably a good quality Chinese seller vs branded western $$$$$ stuff...
> Anyone using power conditioner before the amp ?


 
  
 Does it come with a very bad one? You can get a good wire for around a dollar from China, may cost a bit more depending on where you live.But any electronics store should have them.
  
 edit: just realized you may be looking for something that looks better. Copper Colour makes cool looking ones: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=15353948567&ali_refid=a3_430008_1006:1102238374:N:%E7%94%B5%E6%BA%90%E7%BA%BF:6e143d2263ce01f4f61637654d373329&ali_trackid=1_6e143d2263ce01f4f61637654d373329&spm=a230r.1.0.0.5vZH9t


----------



## Lohb

ansi said:


> Does it come with a very bad one? You can get a good wire for around a dollar from China, may cost a bit more depending on where you live.But any electronics store should have them.


 

 I'm looking for the higher quality stuff. At the price H10 is at there are quite a few mods and upgrades that look good 3M EMI shielding/opamp rolling....regarding power cords - I'd like to see for myself if stock generic cabling vs audiophile power cords are hype. The only way is try yourself and if nothing can be discerned then no big loss....


----------



## blasjw

lohb said:


> Can anyone suggest cable material + plug upgrade for H10 wall plug ? Preferably a good quality Chinese seller vs branded western $$$$$ stuff...
> Anyone using power conditioner before the amp ?


 

 I'm just using a 1.5m Pangea Audio AC-14 Signature power cable with an Emotiva CMX-6 Common Mode AC Line Filter.  Both pretty reasonably priced in my opinion.


----------



## blasjw

ansi said:


> Does it come with a very bad one? You can get a good wire for around a dollar from China, may cost a bit more depending on where you live.But any electronics store should have them.
> 
> edit: just realized you may be looking for something that looks better. Copper Colour makes cool looking ones: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=15353948567&ali_refid=a3_430008_1006:1102238374:N:%E7%94%B5%E6%BA%90%E7%BA%BF:6e143d2263ce01f4f61637654d373329&ali_trackid=1_6e143d2263ce01f4f61637654d373329&spm=a230r.1.0.0.5vZH9t


 

 Yes, it's really bad.  Super skinny.


----------



## DecentLevi

arnotts said:


> I'm actually very interested in everyone's input on their cable experiences. I value the opinion of people with Gustard gear in particular .
> 
> I'm another one that just recently got an aftermarket cable (an AWG20 copper cable from Forza Audioworks), and I also feel like they've changed how my headphones sound. I've actually been primarily listening to the LCD-2's with the cable, and I've been enjoying the experience very much with the H10 and X12.
> 
> ...


 
 Hello, are you using the balanced or normal ended cable? And was is the extended bass version of the cable? And lastly, I was curious if you have done any A/B comparisons with your stock cable versus with the copper cable - could you literally hear a difference? That would be interesting to know, thanks.


----------



## Lohb

I see the sole H10 seller on TaoBao also sells power cords at 268 Yuan (+ buyer agent fees + shipping fees) . Decent enough price to AB the stock skinny cord...I won't be going down the $250 for a power cord road for a $300 amp path, that is for sure.... I just pulled up an ABX comparison thread of power cords on this site and that was the average price range.
  
 huang-cs may be the designer of the amp if I remember right ? Is it easy to communicate directly with him on that site to bypass the purchase agents who charge a fee for buying on your behalf ?


----------



## Arnotts

decentlevi said:


> Hello, are you using the balanced or normal ended cable? And was is the extended bass version of the cable? And lastly, I was curious if you have done any A/B comparisons with your stock cable versus with the copper cable - could you literally hear a difference? That would be interesting to know, thanks.


 
 Neutrik 1/4" connector. This is the extended bass AWG20 copper cable from FAW.
  
 I did an A/B the other night (not blind... yet) and yes I literally felt that I heard a difference. Bass felt like it had more presence and sub-bass notes were more audible. Sound felt like it had less "edge", it was smoother, but still detailed. Soundstage initially felt like it had a little less depth, but this feels like it's improving with more listening.
  
 Whether or not my perception of changed sound is real or not, I don't know. But our brains and the way we perceive sound is very complex. Confirmation bias may be a huge part of what I'm perceiving 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'll tell you that the change I heard did not feel like I could be mistaken. I was never debating with myself about whether I was really hearing a difference or not, it felt quite audible to me. I'm genuinely considering buying the top-of-the-line Forza cable for my LCD-X's and keeping the AWG20 cable on the LCD-2's. 
  
 I have to admit, I never even dreamed that I would ever hear a difference in cables.


----------



## Lohb

arnotts said:


> Neutrik 1/4" connector. This is the extended bass AWG20 copper cable from FAW.
> 
> I did an A/B the other night (not blind... yet) and yes I literally felt that I heard a difference. Bass felt like it had more presence and sub-bass notes were more audible. Sound felt like it had less "edge", it was smoother, but still detailed. Soundstage initially felt like it had a little less depth, but this feels like it's improving with more listening.
> 
> ...


 

 I went for an 18AWG for my LCD-s...not so bad flexibility..4-line braid. I'm _guessing_ 18-22awg may be more suited for current hungry 'Audeze mini-speakers'.


----------



## lukeap69

I just ordered Copper Series HPC Mk2 from Forza 20AWG (for extended bass.) This is a customised cable though, it is divided into 2 parts - the master cable is from the amp end to just a bit after the splitter. Then the slave cable (set) is for the headphone part so I can have different sets of these to be used for different headphones. At this time, I have ordered only 2 sets of 'slave cable' (1) for my HD800 and (2) for my Oppo PM-2. If in future, I will need a different connectors for like say Audeze or Hifiman headphones, I will only need to order sets of slave cables...
  
 I don't put my money on cable differences as I believe the SQ change is small, however when I've tried the Toxic cable of Punit on my HD800 and Glenn OTL amp, I've noticed how the highs have been smoother and the bottom end more impactful. Could be placebo, but I don't care. I heard the difference and that's all that matters to me.


----------



## swannie007

lukeap69 said:


> I just ordered Copper Series HPC Mk2 from Forza 20AWG (for extended bass.) This is a customised cable though, it is divided into 2 parts - the master cable is from the amp end to just a bit after the splitter. Then the slave cable (set) is for the headphone part so I can have different sets of these to be used for different headphones. At this time, I have ordered only 2 sets of 'slave cable' (1) for my HD800 and (2) for my Oppo PM-2. If in future, I will need a different connectors for like say Audeze or Hifiman headphones, I will only need to order sets of slave cables...
> 
> I don't put my money on cable differences as I believe the SQ change is small, however when I've tried the Toxic cable of Punit on my HD800 and Glenn OTL amp, I've noticed how the highs have been smoother and the bottom end more impactful. Could be placebo, but I don't care. I heard the difference and that's all that matters to me.


 
 You got that right. You heard a difference and that is ALL that matters! Enjoy.


----------



## lukeap69

swannie007 said:


> You got that right. You heard a difference and that is ALL that matters! Enjoy.


 
 Cheers my swabbie friend!


----------



## swannie007

This is a very personal hobby and we should let our ears be our guide as we all hear things differently. One mans' meat is another mans poison.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

This thread draws such great, open-minded people.


----------



## lukeap69

Yup LJ, most swabbies care for what one will enjoy and less of negativity (if any.)


----------



## Arnotts

lukeap69 said:


> Yup LJ, most swabbies care for what one will enjoy and less of negativity (if any.)


 
 Not only is this the most positive way of going about things, I also feel like it's the most logical.
  
 People who lean too far towards measurements and pure objectivity lose sight of just how subjective our hearing is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Btw, very clever idea by splitting up your cable into a master and slaves. But what if you enjoy the AWG20 so much that you get the itch to upgrade again?! I'm already considering buying the TOTL Forza cable for the X's...


----------



## lukeap69

arnotts said:


> Not only is this the most positive way of going about things, I also feel like it's the most logical.
> 
> People who lean too far towards measurements and pure objectivity lose sight of just how subjective our hearing is
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Arnotts.
  
 If I felt the itch to upgrade, I will get the master cable first... I don't think the short slave (1 foot) cable will have much impact.


----------



## DecentLevi

arnotts said:


> Neutrik 1/4" connector. This is the extended bass AWG20 copper cable from FAW.
> 
> I did an A/B the other night (not blind... yet) and yes I literally felt that I heard a difference. Bass felt like it had more presence and sub-bass notes were more audible. Sound felt like it had less "edge", it was smoother, but still detailed. Soundstage initially felt like it had a little less depth, but this feels like it's improving with more listening.
> 
> ...


 
 Hello again, based on your impressions it seems like the stock cable (or the AWG26 balanced non extended bass) could be better for some.. if you're like me and like more detail retrieval, big yet natural soundstage, and bass that is deep yet natural as well. Would anybody know if these cables actually add extra bass volume, or just depth? (I'm using HD 650 'cans)


----------



## DecentLevi

blasjw said:


> I'm just using a 1.5m Pangea Audio AC-14 Signature power cable with an Emotiva CMX-6 Common Mode AC Line Filter.  Both pretty reasonably priced in my opinion.


 
 Hello sorry to ask redundant questions, but I'm totally unfamiliar with how power cables and power stabilizers or whatever can improve sound quality (funny thing I've never heard these concepts mentioned at all at the two head-fi meetings I've been to). But anyway, would a power cable technically be able to make a difference - considering that the on the other side of the outlet is connected to common household wiring behind the wall? Or maybe that's what the cable is for, to refine on that standard signal flow. And the big question here would be - were you able to notice any audible difference when using this power cable versus the stock cable (cable swap only directly to the wall).
  
 For me I would probably just buy a padded power cable and not the surge protector. Perhaps I would use it for my DAC instead of the amp (Hmmm??)


----------



## LancerFIN

arnotts said:


> Not only is this the most positive way of going about things, I also feel like it's the most logical.
> 
> People who lean too far towards measurements and pure objectivity lose sight of just how subjective our hearing is
> 
> ...


 
 We don't listen to our gear with paper bags on our heads. Objectivity has it's place but so does subjectivity.
  
 I have Forza's the best copper cable Noir HPC mk2. Second most expensive that they offer. Build quality on it is amazing. It's work of art.


----------



## BassDigger

decentlevi said:


> Hello sorry to ask redundant questions, but I'm totally unfamiliar with how power cables and power stabilizers or whatever can improve sound quality (funny thing I've never heard these concepts mentioned at all at the two head-fi meetings I've been to). But anyway, would a power cable technically be able to make a difference - considering that the on the other side of the outlet is connected to common household wiring behind the wall? Or maybe that's what the cable is for, to refine on that standard signal flow. And the big question here would be - were you able to notice any audible difference when using this power cable versus the stock cable (cable swap only directly to the wall).
> 
> For me I would probably just buy a padded power cable and not the surge protector. Perhaps I would use it for my DAC instead of the amp (Hmmm??)


 
  
 Technically?
  
 Who cares? Surely whether someone can explain why one thing sounds better than another, is irrelevant. As long as we're happy with with what we hear (and as long as we're not being duped, hooked, tricked, fooled, biased and/or ripped off by billshut marketing blurb, and spending money that we can't afford), then surely that's all that matters.
  
 I've had a DIY power cable (TNT-audio Twisted Snake; pennies in parts and a favour from a friend to make) make it seem like I'd upgraded my amp; more volume (before distortion) and literally more bass extension!! That's value for money and it definitely wasn't any placebo effect!


----------



## h1f1add1cted

Amazing amp.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, does anyone have any recommendations on USB cables for connecting between the H12 amp and a DAC? I'm referring to the USB Type A Male to Type B Male cable, about 2-3 feet - an insulated cable, not too expensive at all; unless you'd say a cheap cable like this one would do just as good.


----------



## uncola

http://www.amazon.com/Pangea-Audio-cable-PCOCC-silver/dp/B005AWT9IM/ref=pd_cp_pc_1
  
 http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&path=77&product_id=95
  
 couple of options.  or just get a belkin printer cable


----------



## Arnotts

decentlevi said:


> Hello again, based on your impressions it seems like the stock cable (or the AWG26 balanced non extended bass) could be better for some.. if you're like me and like more detail retrieval, big yet natural soundstage, and bass that is deep yet natural as well. Would anybody know if these cables actually add extra bass volume, or just depth? (I'm using HD 650 'cans)


 
  
 I think the AWG20 cable is definitely an improvement overall. I had a good listening session last night and felt that soundstage depth and imaging were all excellent. Wonderfully musical. I find detail retrieval to still be excellent, just definitely a little smoother.
  
 Personally I would not recommend a cable upgrade unless you're very happy with your amp/DAC and headphones. Once you get everything else in your audio chain sorted, then I would say a cable may be a good addition. If you value detail retrieval and soundstage I would recommend (just from what I have read) either a hybrid copper + silver cable (Forza supposedly make some good ones) or a silver cable. Or just stick with the stock cable and be happy - it works for the vast majority of users .


decentlevi said:


> Hello, does anyone have any recommendations on USB cables for connecting between the H12 amp and a DAC? I'm referring to the USB Type A Male to Type B Male cable, about 2-3 feet - an insulated cable, not too expensive at all; unless you'd say a cheap cable like this one would do just as good.


 
 I'm not sure if the H12 refers to something else, but the H10 does not have any form of USB port. The X12 is a DAC that accepts a USB input (and has a very good one, too). The USB cable you linked is correct for connecting your computer to the DAC. To connect the X12 DAC to the H10 amp you can either use RCA cables or XLR cables.
  
 I'm personally not interested in going down the road of trying different USB cables to see if they make a difference. Whether I can hear a difference or not when it comes to USB cables is just not something I want to think about, LOL.


----------



## newtoears

Hello! 
 I'm wondering if I can get advice. Based on experience, how does this amp compare with the Valhalla 2 for Sennheiser HD800? While I can audition the Val 2, sadly I can't audition the H10 and the prices are somewhat similar although it appears the H10 can put out almost twice as much power at 300Ohms!


----------



## FlySweep

decentlevi said:


> Hello, does anyone have any recommendations on USB cables for connecting between the H12 amp and a DAC? I'm referring to the USB Type A Male to Type B Male cable, about 2-3 feet - an insulated cable, not too expensive at all; unless you'd say a cheap cable like this one would do just as good.


 
  
Pyst USB cable.  I've got one.. it's great.
  


newtoears said:


> Hello!
> I'm wondering if I can get advice. Based on experience, how does this amp compare with the Valhalla 2 for Sennheiser HD800? While I can audition the Val 2, sadly I can't audition the H10 and the prices are somewhat similar although it appears the H10 can put out almost twice as much power at 300Ohms!


 
  
 It's been a while since I've had the H10, but with the HD800, I'm inclined to say the V2 is the better choice.. BUT.. it's somewhat tube-dependent.  The V2 can be more resolving and liquid.. but it's probably not as "tactile" as the H10 is with the HD800.  I really liked the HD800 w/ the H10.. but I think the V2 tends to help realize some of the HD800's technical chops.


----------



## lukeap69

I would have to agree with Flysweep on this one. Wait, I always agree with him, right?


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks very much guys. I meant to say the USB cable is for between the X12 DAC & my computer, but since you say it already comes with a good one then I'll just wait until it arrives and try that one. Otherwize, that Pangea audio cable looks even better than the Schiit PYST cable... enough of my stupid questions for now


----------



## BassDigger

arnotts said:


> ...
> 
> Personally I would not recommend a cable upgrade unless you're very happy with your amp/DAC and headphones. Once you get everything else in your audio chain sorted, then I would say a cable may be a good addition. If you value detail retrieval and soundstage I would recommend (just from what I have read) either a hybrid copper + silver cable (Forza supposedly make some good ones) or a silver cable. Or just stick with the stock cable and be happy - it works for the vast majority of users .
> ...
> ...


 
  
 There's some good advice there. But just to complicate things (complicated is interesting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), I'll add a caveat or two (if nobody minds):
  
 It depends on the cable (and equipment) that you're using, as to whether it's worth upgrading. Generally speaking, if you're using a 'came in the box' type cable, with anything, it'll probably be worth replacing. In most cases, the cables that are included, with the source, dac, amp, hp or whatever you've purchased, are the nastiest of the nasties, and you should definitely notice an improvement by replacing it. (Although, there are always some exceptions.)
  
 You don't have to spend much money; companies like Belkin (I'm not familiar with Forza) make half decent cables for a reasonable price. Also, if you've got a better idea of what kind (construction) of cable you need, you can search ebay or get a diy cable made up. But don't start splashing cash because you believe what the cable manufacturer writes or on cables that cost as much as the equipment they're connecting.
  
 Regarding usb cables: I guess many here use a computer (or similar device, none of which are my preference)* to play their music files, and feed the signal to an off-board dac.
 So (I'm going break my own rules and start going technical), this means that you're playing (feeding) a live signal, which includes the time domain, through a usb connection.
 If it was just raw data, like moving a file, it wouldn't matter. But as the file is being 'played', even though it's still digital, this adds all kinds of other complications (of which I struggle to understand; it's all about jitter and stuff!). But basically, in this situation, the quality of the usb cable does matter.
  
 I hope that this makes sense and that I haven't spread confusion.
  
 (*If you are electrically connecting your computer to your listening rig, then you are connecting it to all sorts of RF Interference!)


----------



## newtoears

flysweep said:


> It's been a while since I've had the H10, but with the HD800, I'm inclined to say the V2 is the better choice.. BUT.. it's somewhat tube-dependent.  The V2 can be more resolving and liquid.. but it's probably not as "tactile" as the H10 is with the HD800.  I really liked the HD800 w/ the H10.. but I think the V2 tends to help realize some of the HD800's technical chops.


 
  
 Thanks! I was kind of afraid of that answer, which is essentially a matter of preference, since I can't audition the H10, or at least not for free anyway ;p
 Still, thanks very much for your opinion!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> Thanks very much guys. I meant to say the USB cable is for between the X12 DAC & my computer, but since you say it already comes with a good one then I'll just wait until it arrives and try that one. Otherwize, that Pangea audio cable looks even better than the Schiit PYST cable... enough of my stupid questions for now




I use the Pangea and I like it.


----------



## ansi

Quote:


decentlevi said:


> Hello sorry to ask redundant questions, but I'm totally unfamiliar with how power cables and power stabilizers or whatever can improve sound quality (funny thing I've never heard these concepts mentioned at all at the two head-fi meetings I've been to). But anyway, would a power cable technically be able to make a difference - considering that the on the other side of the outlet is connected to common household wiring behind the wall? Or maybe that's what the cable is for, to refine on that standard signal flow. And the big question here would be - were you able to notice any audible difference when using this power cable versus the stock cable (cable swap only directly to the wall).
> 
> For me I would probably just buy a padded power cable and not the surge protector. Perhaps I would use it for my DAC instead of the amp (Hmmm??)


 
  
 I've done blind tests with cables that are a dollar, and those that are a hundred. Can't hear difference with any gear and I don't know anyone who does. Based on that experience, I agree with science - no difference. If you bought an expensive cable and think it sounds better, great. Don't do a blind test and enjoy the placebo effect. 
  
  


bassdigger said:


> Regarding usb cables: I guess many here use a computer (or similar device, none of which are my preference)* to play their music files, and feed the signal to an off-board dac.
> So (I'm going break my own rules and start going technical), this means that you're playing (feeding) a live signal, which includes the time domain, through a usb connection.
> If it was just raw data, like moving a file, it wouldn't matter. But as the file is being 'played', even though it's still digital, this adds all kinds of other complications (of which I struggle to understand; it's all about jitter and stuff!). But basically, in this situation, the quality of the usb cable does matter.


 
  
 DAC will re-clock the data, no need to worry about jitter from the computer. I think the quality of the USB cable doesn't matter beyond a dollar or so.


----------



## BassDigger

ansi said:


> ....
> I've done blind tests with cables that are a dollar, and those that are a hundred. Can't hear difference with any gear and I don't know anyone who does. Based on that experience, I agree with science - no difference. If you bought an expensive cable and think it sounds better, great. Don't do a blind test and enjoy the placebo effect.
> 
> ....
> ...


 
  
 People's experiences, and the company they keep, differ. We share our experiences (and our opinions), that's what this forum is for. My experience, and the experiences of those I know, are different to you and yours.
  
 Science has many theories, both why cables should and shouldn't make a difference. Science mostly theorises, not explains. So I think it's our experiences that matter the most. We just have to decide whose opinions are more worthy of our confidence.
 As I usually mention, I wouldn't advise the purchase of expensive cables (unless you've got money that you just don't know what to do with....No, on second thoughts, give it to charity!)
  
 A good dac may reclock, but a cleaner source signal is still probably preferable. And what about RFI? A good cable will channel less jitter and RFI to the equipment downstream.
  
 Actually, you could argue that no cable matters beyond a dollar or so; that's what they cost to manufacture. It's the mark-up that's the problem!


----------



## lukeap69

bassdigger said:


> People's experiences, and the company they keep, differ. We share our experiences (and our opinions), that's what this forum is for. My experience, and the experiences of those I know, are different to you and yours.
> 
> Science has many theories, both why cables should and shouldn't make a difference. Science mostly theorises, not explains. So I think it's our experiences that matter the most. We just have to decide whose opinions are more worthy of our confidence.
> As I usually mention, I wouldn't advise the purchase of expensive cables (unless you've got money that you just don't know what to do with....No, on second thoughts, give it to charity!)
> ...


 
 Excellent post!


----------



## fritobugger

ansi said:


> I've done blind tests with cables that are a dollar, and those that are a hundred. Can't hear difference with any gear and I don't know anyone who does. Based on that experience, I agree with science - no difference. If you bought an expensive cable and think it sounds better, great. Don't do a blind test and enjoy the placebo effect.
> 
> 
> 
> DAC will re-clock the data, no need to worry about jitter from the computer. I think the quality of the USB cable doesn't matter beyond a dollar or so.




Excellent post


----------



## bavinck

I must say, thus H10 amp just keeps getting better and better. Last night the serious, detailed and deep bass everyone talks about finally showed up. It is like I hit it with eq, but I didn't!! What an amazing burn in...


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> I must say, thus H10 amp just keeps getting better and better. Last night the serious, detailed and deep bass everyone talks about finally showed up. It is like I hit it with eq, but I didn't!! What an amazing burn in...


 
  
 How many hours do you think you've run it? And, if you can, please tell us of any 'milestones' (hours of running where you noticed a significant improvement?), before the 'burn-in doesn't make any difference' brigade arrive


----------



## Koolpep

bassdigger said:


> How many hours do you think you've run it? And, if you can, please tell us of any 'milestones' (hours of running where you noticed a significant improvement?), before the 'burn-in doesn't make any difference' brigade arrive


 

 ARRIVED!!
  
*I* have not burned in my H10 - sounded great the first time* I* listened to it. HA!! There you have it. 
  
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
@lukeap69  burned it in for me, I bought it used - so I missed the whole burn-in show. Makes me feel a tiny bit sad though....
  
 My H10 is already seasoned. Left is the sound when it was new - too smooth, not detailed enough, didn't have any "experience" - on the right the after - it has seen its fair share of music - knows how to do some BASS impact and has all the creases and wrinkles of the music....wait - maybe I switched the images? Damn Gustard....Gustard, come back, where are you going? Don't leave me, it was just a JOKE!!!


----------



## lukeap69

Big improvement I've noticed is after 12 hours, then 20, then all incremental to me. YMMV.


----------



## bavinck

bassdigger said:


> How many hours do you think you've run it? And, if you can, please tell us of any 'milestones' (hours of running where you noticed a significant improvement?), before the 'burn-in doesn't make any difference' brigade arrive :atsmile:



It sounded good right out of the box. After 20hrs or so I sounded worse to my ears until about 70hrs and then soundstage opened up and detail and layering showed up. I am over 100hrs now (stopped counting) and the bass has shown a lot of improvement to my ears, and I continue to get incremental improvement in detail, layering and soundstage.


----------



## bahamot

Got this link with plenty of X12 photos and measurements. All are in Russian though, which I don't understand at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://soundex.ru/index.php?showtopic=41414


----------



## olek

@bahamot - read that article before (fluent in Russian), it is a bit strange, and I have not got much out it personally.
  
 Whole article retold in one paragraph: X12 is great, but you have to use it with U12, and you also HAVE to spend more on cabling than cost of X12 and U12 combined 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Author thought that USB interface in X12 was much inferior to U12, power cables horrible, he spent a fortune on cables, and before tweaks in his opinion X12+U12 was performing worse than ASUS Xonar Essence STX.
  
 After a lot of painstaking tweaking he is apparently in heaven, but he does not recommend X12 for those that are not planning to spend a lot on cables upgrades and just want to 'plug in and go'.
  
 This is author's opinions, not mine. Do not throw rotten tomatoes my way, please. Not just yet. I will give you your chance later.


----------



## Arnotts

olek said:


> @bahamot - read that article before (fluent in Russian), it is a bit strange, and I have not got much out it personally.
> 
> Whole article retold in one paragraph: X12 is great, but you have to use it with U12, and you also HAVE to spend more on cabling than cost of X12 and U12 combined
> 
> ...


 

 My experience has been the exact opposite. I just recently sold my trusty Xonar Essence STX after purchasing the X12, as the X12 is clearly far better imo.
  
 Also I have found that going straight to the USB input on the X12 has given me a more enjoyable experience than introducing the U12 into the audio chain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just goes to show that auditioning equipment for yourself really is the only way to know if you'll like it or not!
  
 Edit: Also, I forgot to say thanks to you, olek, for helping us understand the general gist of the Russian thread . And thanks to you, bahamot, for posting it.


----------



## olek

You are welcome!
  
 Overall that author has very 'elitist' attitude (like, if you are not ready to do it the best way - my way - because I know best - do not even bother). I think this hobby has plenty of room for subjectivity, and for differing opinions, and those so called 'experts' are just hurting it.
  
 As for burn in milestones for H10, I would say first was about 20-30 hours in, where sound changed from very, very muddy, to not muddy, but still bad sound, with no bottom end and harsh top-end. Second milestone was around 70 hours, where sound became very nice (deep low end extension and smooth highs), and then it was getting incrementally smoother each day.


----------



## olek

OK, now it is time for me to show my non-conformist nature, and to give you all a chance to dispose of old tomatoes.
  
 My listening time recently was split between H10, and vintage NAD 1020 preamp that I have very recently recapped.
 And I have some surprises, that I do not understand myself, but ... that is what my ears are hearing and I stand by it.
  
 First, before recap, 1020 was losing to H10 all around. It had nice sound, but it had strange slight coloration to it, no low end extension to speak of, and slightly jacked up highs.
  
 After recap plus minor upgrades and ~20 hours of burn-in, that changed a lot. Overall sound is very reminiscent of H10. Switching between those 2 with variety of headphones (K553, K272HD, DT250, AD900) taught me that on moderate-loud levels they are more or less similar sounding (with AKG K553 sounding a bit better with H10 - deeper low end, mostly). With reduced volume (so called low volume listening, safe for my oh-so-problematic ears), H10 wins easily, maintaining very believable soundstage, while NAD 1020 sound 'deflates' and becomes fairly 2D on lower volume levels.
  
 Here comes the kicker. When I tried HD650 with that NAD 1020 on moderate-loud levels (what I would call critical listening volume), I was floored. This cheap pre-amp has no business sounding that good, even if it is legendary, and is known as best budget pre-amp in existence. It is hard to say what it does better than H10, one obvious thing is its low end extension is either slightly deeper or a little stronger (or both), and detail/texture is a bit better but that is not all. There is strange sense of 'presence' and 'clarity' using this combination, that manifests itself a lot when listening to complicated and loud organ music (with multiple low and high registers building melodies at once), or with Gregorian chant (multiple male voices). I know how organ sounds in the real world, and this combo teleports me to concert hall - when I close my eyes, I feel that I am THERE. Same with gregorian chant - I feel like I am in the same room with monks. Especially when I play vinyl. One word I came up over and over using this combination - visceral. Yes, that is how it feels.
  
 And I can not get the same effect from H10. It sounds great, especially on safer listening volumes, smooth, deep, detailed, and not harsh, but it just does not have that crazy synergy with HD650. Funny thing is, with 250Ohm DT250 (very good choice for low level listening, unlike most phones it preserves low end detail even when played quietly), it sounds AMAZING - on lower volume levels, but when cranked to critical listening levels, NAD starts to take over in a way similar to HD650, just not to such a ridiculous extent.
  
 All in all, I am starting to feel that H10 is shining its brightest with 'lowish' impedance headphones that need a lot of current (or with any headphones as long as you keep volume relatively low!), and while it works well with higher impedance headphones (250 Ohm +), it just does not extract that very last bit of performance from them. Of course, I am extrapolating from small and very limited set of headphones I own, but that is how I feel about it at the moment, because so far MY dataset fits this hypothesis. Also, there was other data posted here suggesting great synergy of H10 with planars and K7xx, and it fits that theory as well.
  
 There. Those days when I want to listen to something critically (as in - do nothing else and enjoy music to its full extent - for limited time), I reach for HD650 + NAD 1020. If I just want to listen (relatively) quietly and enjoy music for long time (and can't use my good speakers for some reason), it is H10 with DT250 (best for really low volume), or any other pair of phones. If I had planars or K7xx would likely use them  with H10, but that is purely a speculation.
  
 Got those tomatoes ready?


----------



## olek

Ugh, I spoke too soon.
  
 Got out of my 'classical music' streak, and switched to jazz (with female vocals) this evening, and H10 sounds more enjoyable to me than NAD 1020 time after time. Grrr.
  
 I guess it just proves that it is all subjective and depends on awfully many variables. And it is possible to prefer different amplifiers for different music, just like many of us pick different headphones depending on genre. Sorry for your wallet.


----------



## fritobugger

Seems that consensus on this amp is not happening.  Really torn on whether to get this.


----------



## Schopenhauer

fritobugger said:


> Seems that consensus on this amp is not happening.  Really torn on whether to get this.


 
 There's more or less universal agreement on e.g. that it's good for planars. Exceptional, really, considering the price.


----------



## bavinck

schopenhauer said:


> There's more or less universal agreement on e.g. that it's good for planars. Exceptional, really, considering the price.



This. And akg hard to drive low impedance cans too. Also, lots of guys here posting how they like it with the hd600 and hd650, I would say most everyone is in agreement that this is an amazing amp for the price.


----------



## fritobugger

Well I have an HE-400i so that is pushing me in the direction of a purchase.


----------



## bavinck

Seems like a no brainer for hifiman planars imo. I just love it with my he500.


----------



## Schopenhauer

bavinck said:


> Seems like a no brainer for hifiman planars imo. I just love it with my he500.


 
 The HE-500 + H10 is pretty special. First time I felt I really saw what the HE-500 is capable of.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> Ugh, I spoke too soon.
> 
> Got out of my 'classical music' streak, and switched to jazz (with female vocals) this evening, and H10 sounds more enjoyable to me than NAD 1020 time after time. Grrr.
> 
> I guess it just proves that it is all subjective and depends on awfully many variables. And it is possible to prefer different amplifiers for different music, just like many of us pick different headphones depending on genre. Sorry for your wallet.




Yes, and it all depends on synergy throughout the entire chain as well. Like the pairing of amp with dac.


----------



## normanl

H10 arrived yesterday, initial out of box listening with Anedio D2 (DAC) and HD600 is amazing. The bass is tight with excellent low extension, particularly on organ music, and the mid and treble are very clear, detailed and resolved. I did not experience any muddy and harsh sound at all as mentioned by some. Can any experienced person tell me whether I should set the volume knob of H10 to the maximum and control the volume with DAC volume knob, or set the volume knob of the DAC to the maximum and control the volume with the H10 volume knob? Thanks.


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> I must say, thus H10 amp just keeps getting better and better. Last night the serious, detailed and deep bass everyone talks about finally showed up. It is like I hit it with eq, but I didn't!! What an amazing burn in...


 
  


lukeap69 said:


> Big improvement I've noticed is after 12 hours, then 20, then all incremental to me. YMMV.


 
  


bavinck said:


> It sounded good right out of the box. After 20hrs or so I sounded worse to my ears until about 70hrs and then soundstage opened up and detail and layering showed up. I am over 100hrs now (stopped counting) and the bass has shown a lot of improvement to my ears, and I continue to get incremental improvement in detail, layering and soundstage.


 
  


olek said:


> ...
> As for burn in milestones for H10, I would say first was about 20-30 hours in, where sound changed from very, very muddy, to not muddy, but still bad sound, with no bottom end and harsh top-end. Second milestone was around 70 hours, where sound became very nice (deep low end extension and smooth highs), and then it was getting incrementally smoother each day.


 
  
 Thanks for the response.
  
 I'm looking for a pattern, similarities between peoples 'burn-in' experience-
  
 Hours of use for noticeable improvement:
  
 User 1:   12 & 20+ hours
 User 2:   *20* (worse!), 70 & 100+ hours
 User 3:   20 & 70+ hours
  
 OMG! Is this fodder for some nay-sayers? At 20 hours, one user completely contradicts the others! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But seriously, everyone's run-in process, personal preferences and life circumstances will vary (not to mention connected equipment). But it seems that there is some agreement about post 70 hours of use; you should definitely be getting a good idea of what the H10 can do, by then, and it should also sound better than new!


----------



## bavinck

If amp do burn in, and that can be attributed to burning off various environmental conditions of building the amp, it would make sense to have different experiences. That's assuming we all remember what we heard and didn't have bad gas that messed with our focus on any given day


----------



## Lohb

normanl said:


> H10 arrived yesterday, initial out of box listening with Anedio D2 (DAC) and HD600 is amazing. The bass is tight with excellent low extension, particularly on organ music, and the mid and treble are very clear, detailed and resolved. I did not experience any muddy and harsh sound at all as mentioned by some. Can any experienced person tell me whether I should set the volume knob of H10 to the maximum and control the volume with DAC volume knob, or set the volume knob of the DAC to the maximum and control the volume with the H10 volume knob? Thanks.


 

 You want to adjust volume with H10 analog domain volume control and max out digital DAC domain and software maxed out behind that or use line-out on DAC. Generally you do not want to adjust volume in digital domain but keep that digital area bit-perfect when possible.


----------



## BassDigger

normanl said:


> H10 arrived yesterday, initial out of box listening with Anedio D2 (DAC) and HD600 is amazing. The bass is tight with excellent low extension, particularly on organ music, and the mid and treble are very clear, detailed and resolved. I did not experience any muddy and harsh sound at all as mentioned by some. *Can any experienced person tell me whether I should set the volume knob of H10 to the maximum and control the volume with DAC volume knob, or set the volume knob of the DAC to the maximum and control the volume with the H10 volume knob? Thanks.*


 
  


lohb said:


> You want to adjust volume with H10 analog domain volume control and max out digital DAC domain and software maxed out behind that or use line-out on DAC. Generally you do not want to adjust volume in digital domain but keep that digital area bit-perfect when possible.


 
  
 I totally agree, with a couple of provisions: 
  
 I'm not so sure that digital control of the gain is always a bad thing (what about digital amplifiers?), but I agree that messing around with the original source information is not a good idea, for whatever reasons.
 Another concern is, if you're going to max out the output, maybe via software (such as VLC @ 200%), maybe the (computer or dac) output signal could be too high and cause distortion.
  
 But generally speaking, it's better to make sure that the low level signals (such as the dac-amp RCA inputs) have enough signal strength.
 Also, your audio signal has to go through the H10 volume pot, so you may as well use it.
  
 Additionally, having the amp volume always maxed out leaves more vulnerability for 'accidents' that could damage your phones or your ears. Remember: a good precaution is to always turn an amp volume to minimum when powering on/off, or doing anything really.


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> I totally agree, with a couple of provisions:
> 
> I'm not so sure that digital control of the gain is always a bad thing (what about digital amplifiers?), but I agree that messing around with the original source information is not a good idea, for whatever reasons.
> Another concern is, if you're going to max out the output, maybe via software (such as VLC @ 200%), maybe the (computer or dac) output signal could be too high and cause distortion.
> ...


 

 Yes, I knew as I typed that some exceptions could be pulled up.....generally I just go 100% on A+ 2.0 and DAC line-out is already set to max for its L/O ohms output.


----------



## Roderick

Has anyone heard h10 and audio-gd nfb-6?


----------



## Lohb

Also with all the talk of R2R DAC's... H10 and Theta old school DAC's must be a superb pairing for the $$$$$...tracking one down where I live... missed out on a Parasound 1000.


----------



## BassDigger

lohb said:


> *Yes, I knew as I typed that some exceptions could be pulled up..*...generally I just go 100% on A+ 2.0 and DAC line-out is already set to max for its L/O ohms output.


 
  
 ,,,and there's always some nitpicker around, just waiting....
 Sorry!


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> ,,,and there's always some nitpicker around, just waiting....
> Sorry!


 

 NIT-PICKING UPS YOUR AUDIO HARDWARE EDUCATION.


----------



## ginetto61

schopenhauer said:


> There's more or less universal agreement on e.g. that it's good for planars. Exceptional, really, considering the price.


 
  
 Hi ! then how is it possible that an amp very good with planars (quite revealing HPs i assume) can be bad with other more conventional (read less revealing) headphones ?
 The planars, from what i have read, are an extremely good tool to judge amps sound quality. Am i wrong ?
 that would be strange.
  
 One question and sorry if it has already been said. 
*Does it get hot if left constantly on ? is it safe to leave it on ?*
 Thanks a lot,   gino


----------



## BassDigger

lohb said:


> Also with all the talk of R2R DAC's... H10 and Theta old school DAC's must be a superb pairing for the $$$$$...tracking one down where I live... missed out on a Parasound 1000.


 
  
 I use an old-school multibit dac, and it sounds pretty special with an A1 clone driving the lcd2f.
 I'm reeeeally looking forward to getting a H10, just to find out what (should be) a properly matched combination will sound like. But I'm gonna wait until my cat5 hp cable has run-in. And, if I recall my speaker cable experience correctly, that doesn't happen very quickly. At the moment, the cat 5 is worse than the stock cable; quite tinny sounding!


----------



## olek

roderick said:


> Has anyone heard h10 and audio-gd nfb-6?


 

 I would love to hear too from somebody who have experienced them both.
  
 H10's sound is just adorable, but I vastly prefer audio-gd stepped volume control (sooo smooth), and many connection options on nfb-6 would be nice to have.
  
 I have Audio-gd Precision 1 speaker amp, and while its headphone out is very nice, and very similar in character to H10, it seems to be not as detailed, with sound going a bit from 'smooth' (good) to 'liquid' (slight loss of fine detail in bottom end).
  
 Oh, and H10 is the least susceptible to humming noise. For some reason 2 AKG phones I have seem to elicit slight humming from all my amps, and H10 is best at providing 'hum free signal', while Precision 1 is the worst, practically un-listenable with K553.


----------



## lukeap69

lohb said:


> Also with all the talk of R2R DAC's... H10 and Theta old school DAC's must be a superb pairing for the $$$$$...tracking one down where I live... missed out on a Parasound 1000.



Have you consider Audio-gd DAC-19 to pair with your H10?


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> I would love to hear too from somebody who have experienced them both.
> 
> H10's sound is just adorable, but I vastly prefer audio-gd stepped volume control (sooo smooth), and many connection options on nfb-6 would be nice to have.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's very interesting to read your comparisons with the Audio-gd amp.
  
 I enquired about an Audio-gd (the Precision 1, I think) a while back.
 I recall that the guy said his amps don't have much damping factor; it's a quirk of their design. As I have a penchant for deep bass, and equipment that can properly reproduce it, I was put off.
 I wonder how much this is true of the headphone amps.


----------



## Lohb

lukeap69 said:


> Have you consider Audio-gd DAC-19 to pair with your H10?


 

 Out of my budget range !
  
 Trying to luck out and pick up a Theta locally which I got a lead on...failing that Caiman Mk 2 or something like a Teradak PCM63k/ or DIY case build PCM63K DAC kit from one seller on ebay.


----------



## lukeap69

I see. How about the battery DAC? There is a thread here somewhere... Starting NOS DAC or something like that.


----------



## Lohb

lukeap69 said:


> I see. How about the battery DAC? There is a thread here somewhere... Starting NOS DAC or something like that.


 

 I read the battery DAC was 'cartoonish' when 'looked at' through a pair of HD-800's... (how else can you experience 800's except in HD ?


----------



## lukeap69

Is that true Mike? @zilch0md


----------



## Lohb

lukeap69 said:


> Is that true Mike? @zilch0md


 

 ...anyway, we should get back on the H10 fan club chat... going OT !


----------



## olek

> Originally Posted by *BassDigger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I enquired about an Audio-gd (the Precision 1, I think) a while back.
> I recall that the guy said his amps don't have much damping factor; it's a quirk of their design. As I have a penchant for deep bass, and equipment that can properly reproduce it, I was put off.


 
  
 For what it is worth, Precision 1 amp is driving pair of hard-to-drive KEF LS-50 very well, replacing (very good) vintage amp with it gave me the impression that I have upgraded my speakers. It is a definite keeper for that reason alone, and decent headphone out is just an extra icing on that cake. Sorry for OT.


----------



## normanl

lohb said:


> Yes, I knew as I typed that some exceptions could be pulled up.....generally I just go 100% on A+ 2.0 and DAC line-out is already set to max for its L/O ohms output.


 
 Thanks for your explanation. May I ask what is A+ 2.0?


----------



## Lohb

normanl said:


> Thanks for your explanation. May I ask what is A+ 2.0?


 

 OSX top 3 music player...
  
 http://audirvana.com/


----------



## DecentLevi

lohb said:


> Also with all the talk of R2R DAC's... H10 and Theta old school DAC's must be a superb pairing for the $$$$$...tracking one down where I live... missed out on a Parasound 1000.


 
 Which DACs were you referring to as R2R? I'm pretty sure the Theta-era ones are R2R, but what about the X12 - that's Delta Sigma, right?


----------



## Lohb

decentlevi said:


> Which DACs were you referring to as R2R? I'm pretty sure the Theta-era ones are R2R, but what about the X12 - that's Delta Sigma, right?


 

 R2R = Theta.....Parasound 1000/1500..... got those tips from the Purrin DAC thread.
 X12 = D/S, yes....sorry to a previous poster about asking to get back on topic ...I guess we are interested in which DAC's pair with H10 so relevant...my only worry with a slightly warm sig on H10 is how that would pair with R2R DAC's vs better quality implementation of Sabre in X12 DAC etc.


----------



## lukeap69

I thought I saw a Parasound on sale in the Sale forum.


----------



## olek

ginetto61 said:


> One question and sorry if it has already been said.  *Does it get hot if left constantly on ? is it safe to leave it on ?*
> Thanks a lot,   gino


 
 Sorry, @ginetto61, looks like your question was ignored for some time.
  
 H10 gets warm when turned on for long time (nature of the beast, class A amps all generate heat), but not hot at all, about same temperature as Schiit Bifrost DAC (now, for the life of me, I do not understand why that one needs to get that warm... not amp at all and for its gain stages class A should be fairly low-power). It could make a nice very gentle palm warmer on cold winter nights, but you might need to put it under blanket to keep heat in


----------



## Lohb

lukeap69 said:


> I thought I saw a Parasound on sale in the Sale forum.


 

 There is one and it can also get upgrades from ebay to 24/96 and also the DAC chip can be swapped out for a more detailed one from the same ebay seller. Monster caps inside the parasound and 3 separate power supplies. I have one bookmarked locally.


----------



## lukeap69

lohb said:


> There is one and it can also get upgrades from ebay to 24/96 and also the DAC chip can be swapped out for a more detailed one from the same ebay seller. Monster caps inside the parasound and 3 separate power supplies. I have one bookmarked locally.




Right. I think I am as interested as you are the H10 to be paired with an R2R DAC. I have been asking local headfiers here if anybody has a R2R DAC that they can bring in the meet, however it seems nobody has any. I thought it would be nice to audition one first before shelling out 2 grand for the Yggy.


----------



## Lohb

lukeap69 said:


> Right. I think I am as interested as you are the H10 to be paired with an R2R DAC. I have been asking local headfiers here if anybody has a R2R DAC that they can bring in the meet, however it seems nobody has any. I thought it would be nice to audition one first before shelling out 2 grand for the Yggy.


 

 Just pick up an old school R2R and wait for a used Yiggy...there is a meta-search engine called hifishark and you can see what parasound or Theta are avail at a glance globally..


----------



## BassDigger

bassdigger said:


> (me)
> I enquired about an Audio-gd (the Precision 1, I think) a while back.
> I recall that the guy said his amps don't have much damping factor; it's a quirk of their design. As I have a penchant for deep bass, and equipment that can properly reproduce it, I was put off.
> I wonder how much this is true of the headphone amps.


 
   
 Quote:


olek said:


> For what it is worth, Precision 1 amp is driving pair of hard-to-drive KEF LS-50 very well, replacing (very good) vintage amp with it gave me the impression that I have upgraded my speakers. It is a definite keeper for that reason alone, and decent headphone out is just an extra icing on that cake. Sorry for OT.


 
  
 OT: According to the specs, the KEF LS-50 is inefficient, but otherwise quite amp friendly; they need some power, but neither suck amperes or have deep bass to control. Any lack of Damping Factor, in the Precision 1, won't matter. I think that you've got a good match there.
  
 Back on topic (nearly): I think that this may be an explanation for the difference that you noticed, between H10 and P1; I believe that the H10 has a good damping factor; the Precision 1, probably not so.
  
 The question that I meant to pose is about the importance of the damping factor, in headphone amps; for the proper reproduction of the deepest bass, is the damping factor as important as it is for loudspeaker amps?
 Has anyone got experience or knowledge about this?


----------



## ginetto61

olek said:


> Sorry, @ginetto61, looks like your question was ignored for some time.
> 
> H10 gets warm when turned on for long time (nature of the beast, class A amps all generate heat), but not hot at all, about same temperature as Schiit Bifrost DAC
> (*now, for the life of me, I do not understand why that one needs to get that warm... not amp at all and for its gain stages class A should be fairly low-power*).
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot indeed for the very helpful reply.  I agree completely with you.  I have the strong feeling that they exaggerate with bias currents.
 And most of the time is fixed, without a trimming pot to set-it !!!
 And not always class A implies perfect sound.  Better ... there are many competent amps working in class AB.
 It is the same with speakers.  I with a friend compared an amp that was more an heater to another one stone cold. The cold stone one had a much better sound.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## BassDigger

lukeap69 said:


> Right. I think I am as interested as you are the H10 to be paired with an R2R DAC. I have been asking local headfiers here if anybody has a R2R DAC that they can bring in the meet, however it seems nobody has any. I thought it would be nice to audition one first before shelling out 2 grand for the Yggy.


  

 Quote: 





lohb said:


> Just pick up an old school R2R and wait for a used Yiggy...there is a meta-search engine called hifishark and you can see what parasound or Theta are avail at a glance globally..


 
  
 I don't know so much about the Theta and Parasound models, but most (if not not all) of the old school dacs need some modification and recapping, to get anything like the best out of them. Back in the day, when they used proper parts (such as multibit chips), they didn't have such a good handle on the causes and effects of jitter and other now better understood phenomenon. But many of their 'slip-ups' can be corrected with mods.
 Most of the mods are quite simple, well-researched and easy for an electronics hobbyist to undertake.
  
 As for the Yggy, I don't know that that one is going to be going cheap, on ebay, anytime soon; I think everyone's got the same idea. (And this on top those who want to 'win' the auction, whatever the price!) If I didn't already have my old school dac, I'd be thinking of ways to convince the wife how we 'need' to spend $2.5k on a dac.
  
 I'm sorry, I didn't see the off-topic call. I quite understand; I'm not remotely interested in previous conversations about dacs. But now we're talking multibit...!!! Whoops!
  
 Anyway, I hope that a little bit of OT adds to the discussion, but if anyone's got some more H10 news or superlatives to throw in, I'm more than happy to make way!!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I have just purchased a vintage Theta dac, so I will be able to assess and report on my impressions of its pairing with the H10. 

As for superlatives and impressions, I am completely smitten by this amp with my Gungnir. It is totally unbelievable how the H10 sounds with my headphones. 

I was listening to classical with my K7xx's tonight and nearly allowed my food to burn because I could not unfix myself from my closed-eye trance. 

Everything sounds good on it. Strings, drums, complex orchestral passages, organs, bells, wind instruments, and vocals. Smoother than "a baby's ass," layered, detailed, dynamic. My $1,200 US dollars was well spent on this amp. Oh wait, I bought it for less than $300. Not too far off from this R2R dac incoming. I'm hoping for further improvements!


----------



## Lohb

liu junyuan said:


> I have just purchased a vintage Theta dac, so I will be able to assess and report on my impressions of its pairing with the H10.
> 
> As for superlatives and impressions, I am completely smitten by this amp with my Gungnir. It is totally unbelievable how the H10 sounds with my headphones.
> 
> ...


 

 LOL. Nice one. Did you scoop the Theta that appeared for 20 minutes in the classifieds ?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lohb said:


> LOL. Nice one. Did you scoop the Theta that appeared for 20 minutes in the classifieds ?




Umm... no!!! (runs "for cover")


(Yes lol)


----------



## Lohb

Oh, well let us know.....Theta and H10 may just be too much for you if you're burning food with your current set-up


----------



## fritobugger

Any have a chance to compare the H10 to the Yulong A100 amp?  They are fairly close in price.


----------



## daltonlanny

What brand and model number are the op amps used in the Gustard H10?
Can they be easily replaced with upgrade ones?


----------



## olek

daltonlanny said:


> What brand and model number are the op amps used in the Gustard H10?
> Can they be easily replaced with upgrade ones?


 

@daltonlanny - I think there was some opamp information here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/rjm/1214-gustard-h10-headphone-amplifier.html


----------



## olek

bassdigger said:


> I wonder how much this is true of the headphone amps.


 
  In case you still want more info on damping factor, there was recently a quick discussion over here, with no consensus, of course.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners/14235


----------



## Liu Junyuan

For those of you who have purchased from polychen, how was the shipping experience? 
  
 Edit: I am buying a U12 for my incoming Theta.


----------



## bavinck

I bought my h10 and just ordered an x12 from vintage_audio_lab. The h10 came no problems, and he dropped the price a fair amount for me on the x12. Recommended.


----------



## stuartmc

liu junyuan said:


> For those of you who have purchased from polychen, how was the shipping experience?
> 
> Edit: I am buying a U12 for my incoming Theta.


 
 Polychen has been great for many of us.  He uses DHL to the States and it has been extraordinarily fast three times for me.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

stuartmc said:


> Polychen has been great for many of us.  He uses DHL to the States and it has been extraordinarily fast three times for me.


 
 Thank you stuartmc.


----------



## pippen99

stuartmc said:


> Polychen has been great for many of us.  He uses DHL to the States and it has been extraordinarily fast three times for me.


 

 He was a little iffy for me.  I ordered an X12 and H10 at the same time.  He shipped an X12 and U12 instead.  Between shipping and Chinese New Year it took more than a month to get my H10.  Got what I ordered , just kind on messy.


----------



## vlach

[quote="lukeap69, post: 11550946, member: 390409"]
Right. I think I am as interested as you are the H10 to be paired with an R2R DAC. I have been asking local headfiers here if anybody has a R2R DAC that they can bring in the meet, however it seems nobody has any. I thought it would be nice to audition one first before shelling out 2 grand for the Yggy. :smiley:[/quote]


Check out the Monarchy Audio NM24...it destroyed my Audio-GD DAC19mklll which I thought was excellent. The NM24 uses tubes to remove the last bit of grain.
They typically go for $600 used. Very solid construction. 25 lbs.


----------



## normanl

bavinck said:


> I bought my h10 and just ordered an x12 from vintage_audio_lab. The h10 came no problems, and he dropped the price a fair amount for me on the x12. Recommended.


 
 Did Vintage audio lab include any accessories with H10?  I only received H10 without any accessories.


----------



## DecentLevi

liu junyuan said:


> I have just purchased a vintage Theta dac, so I will be able to assess and report on my impressions of its pairing with the H10.
> 
> As for superlatives and impressions, I am completely smitten by this amp with my Gungnir. It is totally unbelievable how the H10 sounds with my headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 Hello Liu, did you mean to say that you liked the Gungnir or Theta better as a DAC? What is your feed into the Theta? (optical from a laptop, etc.?)


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> Hello Liu, did you mean to say that you liked the Gungnir or Theta better as a DAC? What is your feed into the Theta? (optical from a laptop, etc.?)




Sorry, I will not receive it until Thursday. I will be feeding pc usb---Schiit Wyrd--->Gustard U12--->coaxial--->Theta Pro Progeny--->coaxial (Progeny is single-ended out)--->Gustard H10/my other amps


----------



## bavinck

normanl said:


> Did Vintage audio lab include any accessories with H10?  I only received H10 without any accessories.



What kind of accessories were you expecting? Nothing else in the box.


----------



## normanl

bavinck said:


> What kind of accessories were you expecting? Nothing else in the box.


 
 Such as power cord, instruction manual, etc.


----------



## DreamKing

anyone compared the Beta 22 to the H10? I've got a deal for a 3 channel one but unsure if I should go for a H10 instead.


----------



## bavinck

normanl said:


> Such as power cord, instruction manual, etc.




Nobody has an instruction manual to my knowledge yet. I have heard some people got a cheap thin power cord, I would have upgraded it anyway. It's not unusual in my experience for international sellers to not includ3 a power cord as different countries use different kinds of cords. 

I did get killer sound in the box though


----------



## Lohb

daltonlanny said:


> What brand and model number are the op amps used in the Gustard H10?
> Can they be easily replaced with upgrade ones?


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/960#post_11458332


----------



## olek

bavinck said:


> Nobody has an instruction manual to my knowledge yet. I have heard some people got a cheap thin power cord, I would have upgraded it anyway. It's not unusual in my experience for international sellers to not includ3 a power cord as different countries use different kinds of cords.
> 
> I did get killer sound in the box though


 
  
 Glad that this box changed your opinion that much. You were very hesitant for first couple of days (like most of us) 
  
 As for the accessories - got cheap power cord (still using it, keeping upgrade till later when H10 bores me, and that just ain't happening yet). No manual exists - even online.
  
 Listening to Brailowsky's interpretation of 24 Chopin preludes from times when stereo was a new thing and putting photo of old geezer on the album cover was not a sin yet, and H10 + HD650 sounds soooo good.


----------



## bavinck

I was hesitant, but I knew from reading this whole thread that that might be the case. Glad I stuck it out. Not a classical fan, but listening to some folk metal right now, and they just dropped the bass and subbass, all the way down. Wow! Like someone else wrote, I feel like only now and I hearing what the he500 can do.


----------



## normanl

olek said:


> Glad that this box changed your opinion that much. You were very hesitant for first couple of days (like most of us)
> 
> As for the accessories - got cheap power cord (still using it, keeping upgrade till later when H10 bores me, and that just ain't happening yet). No manual exists - even online.
> 
> Listening to Brailowsky's interpretation of 24 Chopin preludes from times when stereo was a new thing and putting photo of old geezer on the album cover was not a sin yet, and H10 + HD650 sounds soooo good.


 
 I'm listening to "Toccatas for Organ played by Jean Guillou" through H10+HD600 and H10+Yamaha MT220, and the bass and sub-bass are so tight and powerful, very close to the experience with my Adam A7x active monitors + Adam Sub 8. H10 really surprises me.


----------



## Lohb

With this high quality SQ presentation, are you guys (and girl) more likely to crank the volume UP ?


----------



## Arnotts

I've had a bit of a revelation since switching around components to different rigs. The Gustard U12 does not play nice with any of my equipment. It's very smooth and musical, but it really does not suit the M-Stage combo and the HD800's imo. I also feel like it smooths over the H10 and X12 too much - I'm quite sure that I prefer the X12 + H10 via USB straight into the X12, instead of adding the U12 into the mix.
  
 First, the H10 is an excellent value for money amplifier that really does well with everything I've thrown at it, including the HD800, but it truly excels with planar magnetic headphones. This makes sense, since the H10 is very, very similar to the Violectric V200, which was designed to be able to power the current-hungry planars properly. Listening to Audeze headphones with the H10 is good enough to be my end-game setup; incredible musicality and technical proficiency. 
  
 But since testing out the HD800 more without the U12, I've come to really appreciate the strengths of the two setups, Gustard vs M-Stage, for the HD800's. 
  
 The H10 makes the HD800 sound very good, but slightly inhibits their strengths. It feels like it slightly slows down how fast the HD800's are. Sounds are a little bit too smooth (this is definitely nitpicking, but it's clear when comparing it directly to the M-Stage, which is a clone of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear, an amp that reportedly pairs very well with the HD800's). Soundstage width, depth and instrument separation are all good, but not quite as well separated as the "drier" and sharper sounding M-Stage combo. 
  
 I think some people like the V200/H10 with the HD800's because it essentially tips the headphones towards a slightly warmer, slower, less separated sound. Imo this inhibits the strength of the HD800's compared to other headphones. From the Gustard combo, I would rather listen to an Audeze (or a HifiMan like the HE-400's when I owned them). The M-Stage plays to the strengths of the HD800's a little bit better. 
  
 An Audiolab M-DAC and a Geek Pulse are looking to be in my future, too. I'll have a bit of a shootout and keep the top two with my headphones out of the following: 
  
 • Gustard H10 + Gustard X12
 • Matrix M-Stage amp + Matrix M-Stage DAC
 • Audiolab M-DAC (single ended from the class A amp and balanced from the XLR outputs)
 • Geek Pulse
  
 Quote:


lohb said:


> With this high quality SQ presentation, are you guys (and girl) more likely to crank the volume UP ?



 Yep. The lack of harsh treble, especially with the Audeze sound, makes it very easy to really turn up the volume and enjoy it-- even if it might be too high.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lohb said:


> With this high quality SQ presentation, are you guys (and girl) more likely to crank the volume UP ?




No, not at all. I listen from 8:30-9:00 on +6 gain most of the time.


----------



## BassDigger

normanl said:


> I'm listening to "Toccatas for Organ played by Jean Guillou" through H10+HD600 and H10+Yamaha MT220, and the bass and sub-bass are so tight and powerful, very close to the experience with my Adam A7x active monitors + Adam Sub 8. H10 really surprises me.


 
  
 Is that Bach's Toccata and Fugue?
 I must get hold of some organ and classical stuff; it's awesome, when I'm in the right mood. There're a few favourites that I used to listen to, and Toccata....well, that's an absolute classic (in every sense)!
  
 There's been a few mentions of deep bass performance, in some recent posts. Is there any consensus that the H10 is 'reaching parts', unexplored octaves, that other amps just can't reach?
  
 (Please break this to me gently; it's a subject that's very close to my heart, and any resounding opinions, either way, will make for a sleepless night! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
  
 P.S. I've just realised that there's more than one Toccata. Well, I'll still post my ignorance, for everyone to see


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> In case you still want more info on damping factor, there was recently a quick discussion over here, with no consensus, of course.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/537704/calling-all-vintage-integrated-receiver-owners/14235


 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## DecentLevi

liu junyuan said:


> Sorry, I will not receive it until Thursday. I will be feeding pc usb---Schiit Wyrd--->Gustard U12--->coaxial--->Theta Pro Progeny--->coaxial (Progeny is single-ended out)--->Gustard H10/my other amps


 
 Wow, a series of 3 USB signal enhancers - that's sure gotta give you a clean signal! I can't help but wonder if this may give you "too analytical" of a sound or take too much electricity. Personally if I had all that great gear I would spend some time doing A/B/C, / A/C, A/B, B/C, A alone, B alone, etc. trials to find out which combination sounds best and  possibly save on my electric bill. Because more isn't _always _better (but sometimes it is). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also Liu, thanks for all your previous advice on various gear. But about that I'm getting the sense that you're in a whole other spending league than me. Oh well, at least I'm scaling up my gear gradually.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> Wow, a series of 3 USB signal enhancers - that's sure gotta give you a clean signal! I can't help but wonder if this may give you "too analytical" of a sound or take too much electricity. Personally if I had all that great gear I would spend some time doing A/B/C, / A/C, A/B, B/C, A alone, B alone, etc. trials to find out which combination sounds best and  possibly save on my electric bill. Because more isn't _always_ better (but sometimes it is).
> 
> Also Liu, thanks for all your previous advice on various gear. But about that I'm getting the sense that you're in a whole other spending league than me. Oh well, at least I'm scaling up my gear gradually.




To be fair, I did not plan in using the Wyrd, but I already have one, and the seller explicitly stated he preferred it with the U12 due to his crappy USB on the laptop. 

I need the U12 either way in order to use the Theta with my my files because vintage DACs do not come with USB. The Wyrd may be totally unnecessary; but the U12 is not optional because I want to listen to my files. 

As far as budget, I am not sure. I started really slow in 2010 with the HD-650, a musical fidelity vdac, and a Creek OBH-11 amp. That was a major investment for me and I kept with that setup for three years. I gradually added to my collection over time. 

To be fair, you seem to be learning much quicker than I did. If you are pairing your HD-600 with a LD OTL and the DAC-X12, you will probably be very happy with it for awhile. The only small upgrades you might need are some new tubes for the amp. And then you can play around with discovering new music. 

As stuartmc has made incredibly clear elsewhere in this thread, its important to be happy with your setup once you find a nice synergy. He saw a lot of people fall in the trap of over spending with money they did not have and then fall into financial ruin. You seem more thrifty than that. 

Because gear prices have dropped, it is possible to obtain a very high quality setup at lower prices. I do not think any headphone will ever replace my HD 650 for what it does. The HD-600 is similar; it is basically an end-game transducer with the right setup (otl amp and nice dac). 

Gustard is relevant here because it offers very high fidelity sound. Also, if you ever feel the need to supplement you headphone experience, the HE-500 has come down recently. It is quite amazing with the H10.


----------



## BassDigger

liu junyuan said:


> To be fair, I did not plan in using the Wyrd, but I already have one, and the seller explicitly stated he preferred it with the U12 due to his crappy USB on the laptop.
> 
> I need the U12 either way in order to use the Theta with my my files because vintage DACs do not come with USB. The Wyrd may be totally unnecessary; but the U12 is not optional because I want to listen to my files.
> 
> ...


 
  
 People are buying ever more kit to link their computer to their audio set-up. This is never going to be ideal, for several reasons, but mainly because of computer glitches effecting playback, less than ideal playback software and, a big one, RFI travelling into your audio gear; a computer is full of it!
 My preference, to overcome this, is a dedicated SD card WAV player. But you could also try an optical link, somewhere along the way; this will electrically isolate the equipment.
  
 Over-expenditure could be classed as a negative factor about such forums as this; people read that so many people have this item and that item, it could (and probably does) make them more inclined to spend money that they wouldn't or shouldn't. (I'm 'lucky'; my wife 'helps' me with issues regarding self-control and spending on hifi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
  
 I've nearly always tried to find the cheaper way of getting the best. It sounds like an obvious statement, but I was once like so many; I just followed the marketing hype. But now, thanks to some learned friends, I have kit speakers, kit cables and vintage players and I'm more than open to the idea of buying hifi that hasn't got a brand name on it, especially when it's the kind of bargain that the H10 appears to be!


----------



## olek

@BassDigger,  I hear you.
  
 My honest advice - never ever go to head-fi meetup. And if you ever have a misfortune to do that, never-ever bring any of your gear there, or you may leave very disheartened.
  
 I was very much like you, keeping it all under very tight budget, vintage TOTL amplifiers and all. And then I went to head-fi meetup, and simple Bifrost + Lyr setup showed me how much sound I was 'leaving on the table' with Audioengine D1 (which was one of my better dac/amps at that point). That visit ruined my happiness 
  
 Now all I can say that none of my vintage amps drives headphones as well as H10 (OK, NAD 1020 is a freak, and it has something going for it for some genres, but other 5-6 amps are not even close). Audio-gd Precision 1 drives LS-50 speakers in a way none of my (pretty good) vintage amps was ever able to even approach.
  
 Funny thing is while new gear cost me more than I am used to, it is considered 'inexpensive' equipment in a world of hi-fi. I guess I am still budget oriented, just on a different level now 
  
 Now, a lot of modern music is created to sound good on cheap hardware (a lot of it embraces distortion-based sound because distortion will be there anyway, a lot of it forgoes dynamics because CD will be brickwalled anyway etc.), and it can sound really good that way when done right.
 But if you are into the music that was not bent and reinvented to fit the limits of mass-market reproduction equipment (like classical, or jazz etc) ... sorry for your wallet.


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> @BassDigger,  I hear you.
> 
> My honest advice - never ever go to head-fi meetup. And if you ever have a misfortune to do that, never-ever bring any of your gear there, or you may leave very disheartened.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think that somebody's already written something to the effect of "Don't listen to something that you can't afford", previously in this thread. That's probably good advice. But I still consider that the real thing (a real performance; live music) is always going to sound the best. So, I think a first priority is that there's nothing about your listening equipment that reminds you that it's not live. You know? Get a balanced system with no obvious flaws in the sound that you hear; flaws that won't let you forget that it's not real. I think that this is the first stage of 'audio bliss'. Then the next stage is trying to remove those veils.
  
 Like with everything, it's just keeping within your budget. And of course, the trick is to make that budget go as far as possible. For that I think that you need to do open-minded research, and be prepared to change your expectations and/or concept of what good hifi is. That's what I did. But I wonder how much I still have to learn.
  
 A lot of my favourite music is mixed to sound 'exciting' on lesser gear, or the radio. It can become a less rewarding listen as I 'move up the audio chain'!


----------



## normanl

bassdigger said:


> Is that Bach's Toccata and Fugue?
> I must get hold of some organ and classical stuff; it's awesome, when I'm in the right mood. There're a few favourites that I used to listen to, and Toccata....well, that's an absolute classic (in every sense)!
> 
> There's been a few mentions of deep bass performance, in some recent posts. Is there any consensus that the H10 is 'reaching parts', unexplored octaves, that other amps just can't reach?
> ...


 
 Those are toccatas by  *Bach, Frescobaldi, Buxtehude, Seixas, Widor, Guillou, Prokofiev (Philips label). Gillou's playing gives multidimensional-quality which is manifested very well by H10. But IMO no headphones can approach the same level as with active monitors   + subwoolfer, particularly on organ music.*


----------



## olek

bassdigger said:


> ... the trick is to make that budget go as far as possible...


 
  
 This is one true unwritten rule of this sport! It would not be fun otherwise.
  
 Some time ago I thought that my quite damaged hearing should make me more ignorant of quality sound (and ignorance is a bliss in this case!). Alas, no such luck yet. I can hear nuances in my music that some people with perfectly good hearing do not. Darn.
  
 Coming back from OT - and that unwritten rule of this sport is the very reason why so many of us are so interested in this Goos-tar-d (or is it Gus-star-d?) gear.


----------



## BassDigger

normanl said:


> Those are toccatas by  *Bach, Frescobaldi, Buxtehude, Seixas, Widor, Guillou, Prokofiev (Philips label). Gillou's playing gives multidimensional-quality which is manifested very well by H10. But IMO no headphones can approach the same level as with active monitors   + subwoolfer, particularly on organ music.*


 
  
 Yeah, I realised my ignorance; I just only knew about probably the most famous toccata (and fugue). I can see some exploration, of other toccatas, coming up.
  
 I get your point about headphone listening, compared to speakers; I use some transmission line speakers; they go low and there's plenty of music that you feel, rather than hear. Particularly with organ music. If you've ever been in a cathedral whilst the organ is being played; it's a complete bass-fest; _everything_ is resonating with sub-30hz notes! Headphones are never going to do that. But bass performance is still a major factor with headphone listening, for me. That's why I'm very keen to hear about the bass reproduction, of the H10, relative to other amplifiers.


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> ...
> Coming back from OT - and that unwritten rule of this sport is the very reason why so many of us are so interested in this Goos-tar-d (or is it Gus-star-d?) gear.


 
  
 Well, at least it's not Goose-turd! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 From what people are saying (I've yet to find out, for myself), the H10 is a decent $1000 amp, that's available for around $300. That's a pretty major bargain in my view.
 I need a main amp for my speakers. If somebody knows of an effectively $2000 amp, that's available for $600, please let me know!!!


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi folks, very interesting and philosophical posts about the hobby on page 97. While I also am really seeing the possible negative financial outcome of discovering new gear at a head-fi meeting, the other side of the coin is the benefits of having the new gear which you discovered and buy. The investment in a new amp, DAC, cable, headphone, etc. can bring you audio-bliss every day for years to come; and with even much greater fidelity than you previously had known to be possible. And perhaps the vitality from all the meetups and audiophile websites could be a key factor in helping to keep costs down and keep the industry progressive.
  
 And if you're an at-home musician like myself and some of the other head-fi-er's, this audio gear is also an investment that can lead to better mastering in the music you create.
  
 Also @Liu Junyuan, that was interesting to hear your posts about the hobby too, thanks. I suppose I have been learning quickly recently with this extra audiophile reading and meet-ups, but I've been basically a 'Head-fi lurker', just making purchases since 2007 and I didn't make my first post until 2014.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> Hi folks, very interesting and philosophical posts about the hobby on page 97. While I also am really seeing the possible negative financial outcome of discovering new gear at a head-fi meeting, the other side of the coin is the benefits of having the new gear which you discovered and buy. The investment in a new amp, DAC, cable, headphone, etc. can bring you audio-bliss every day for years to come; and with even much greater fidelity than you previously had known to be possible. And perhaps the vitality from all the meetups and audiophile websites could be a key factor in helping to keep costs down and keep the industry progressive.
> 
> And if you're an at-home musician like myself and some of the other head-fi-er's, this audio gear is also an investment that can lead to better mastering in the music you create.
> 
> ...




You have an advantage by means of experience, but this experience has kindled your desire upward. The truth is that to meet reality with desire will require money. HE-1000? Yggy? SR-009? Common. You are speaking multiple thousands of dollars. 

How to achieve those moneys? It requires a certain mindset doesn't it? A particular major in college ? A politics. 

I hope to achieve your gear wishes as well, but one must come to terms with ones convictions and material situation as well. 

Fortunately, I do know that a well-driven HD 650 can serve as a staple in any setup--period, regardless of what gear one had access to.


----------



## YtseJamer

So what's the final verdict regarding the pairing of the H10 with the HE-560 ?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Koolpep

ytsejamer said:


> So what's the final verdict regarding the pairing of the H10 with the HE-560 ?
> 
> Thanks!


 

 Totally awesome from my side - but is there ever a FINAL verdict?


----------



## DreamKing

koolpep said:


> Totally awesome from my side - but is there ever a FINAL verdict?


 
  
 I don't know but I've heard at least 10 people say it sounds awesome with it so I just bought the H10 yesterday at the same price as the Massdrop deal that ended and I don't have to wait 'til May 19 for it to start shipping lol. Estimated delivery May 12-17. Hoping for some modest objectives to be met so I can be pleasantly surprised.
  
 Also will be interested to hear what people think of this with the Ether, when it comes out.


----------



## fccn75

Wondering and wondering:
  
 Gustard H10 so far is highly regarded as one of the better value amp that can even do justice with the HD800.  Since the release of Cavalli Liquid Carbon is destined in the near future, a high-end amp that cost nearly double and the mystic of the Cavalli sound signature, will H10 step all over it??  Interesting...  
  
 Both are in Class A mode with discrete output devices, but can the Cavalli be almost twice as good or should I ask IF the H10 can really be the ultimate bargain at this point?
  
 Just something I'm pondering before pulling the trigger on the H10 and saving $$.


----------



## Schopenhauer

fccn75 said:


> Wondering and wondering:
> 
> Gustard H10 so far is highly regarded as one of the better value amp that can even do justice with the HD800.  Since the release of Cavalli Liquid Carbon is destined in the near future, a high-end amp that cost nearly double and the mystic of the Cavalli sound signature, will H10 step all over it??  Interesting...
> 
> ...


 
 There might not end up being a competition for this reason: The LC has a limited first run of 500 units, and it isn't set in stone that there will be second run. Unless a second run has been announced.


----------



## DreamKing

schopenhauer said:


> There might not end up being a competition for this reason: The LC has a limited first run of 500 units, and it isn't set in stone that there will be second run. Unless a second run has been announced.


 
  
 I'm pretty sure I remember them saying a later run or maybe production line would be at a higher price, unless that was changed.
  
 Edit:  "But, please keep in mind that this is a very sophisticated amplifier and subsequent runs may see some increases in price, if/as necessary." (Alex Cavalli)
  
 Well, they're at least hinting at it...not set in stone but I'm happy I bought the H10 now and I'll wait to see what folks have to say about LC (especially vs the H10) after the hype has died down.


----------



## pippen99

schopenhauer said:


> There might not end up being a competition for this reason: The LC has a limited first run of 500 units, and it isn't set in stone that there will be second run. Unless a second run has been announced.


 

 I believe that there are still LC left in the first run.  I got in early, hopefully mine will be in the first batch shipped. I will find out in August(?) how they match up.  I will at first be using the X12 as DAC.


----------



## YtseJamer

koolpep said:


> Totally awesome from my side


 
  
 Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


dreamking said:


> I don't know but I've heard at least 10 people say it sounds awesome with it so I just bought the H10 yesterday at the same price as the Massdrop deal that ended and I don't have to wait 'til May 19 for it to start shipping lol. Estimated delivery May 12-17.


 
  
 Did you buy it on ebay ? $399 with free shipping to Canada here.


----------



## DreamKing

ytsejamer said:


> Did you buy it on ebay ? $399 with free shipping to Canada here.


 
  
 Got it for $350 from that same dealer lol beats the hell out of the Massdrop deal that only ships May 19th with $50 shipping charge and probably will come with custom fees up the wazoo to schiit all over that day.


----------



## YtseJamer

dreamking said:


> Got it for $350 from that same dealer lol beats the hell out of the Massdrop deal that only ships May 19th with $50 shipping charge and probably will come with custom fees up the wazoo to schiit all over that day.


 
  
 $350 with the shipping included ?


----------



## DreamKing

ytsejamer said:


> $350 with the shipping included ?


 
  
 Yeah.


----------



## YtseJamer

dreamking said:


> Yeah.


 
  
 Thanks, I will contact them because I will not receive my Liquid Carbon before September.


----------



## DreamKing

ytsejamer said:


> Thanks, I will contact them because I will not receive my Liquid Carbon before September.


 
  
 Okay, one thing worth noting: being in Hong Kong, it takes them a bit to respond. I moved recently, my ebay had my old address and I went too quickly with the payment so I had to contact them within the one-hour Paypal Protection Plan window. It was 2:23AM, 2:32PM their time, but I received a message saying the address was changed this morning though so definitely not the worst response time I've encountered. 
  
 September, damn lol. Yeah, this is a good deal to try in the meantime.


----------



## fccn75

It's quite interesting that some of you already pre-ordered the LC.  Good to know and looking forward for impressions!
  
 DreamKing, is the seller Pollychen as mentioned a few post back that you got the price for $350 shipped?  As of a few minutes ago, I only see $399 and the other seller also mentioned earlier, Vintage Audio Lab is less but Taiwan.  Just curious if you contacted for price matching/reduction?


----------



## bavinck

fccn75 said:


> It's quite interesting that some of you already pre-ordered the LC.  Good to know and looking forward for impressions!
> 
> DreamKing, is the seller Pollychen as mentioned a few post back that you got the price for $350 shipped?  As of a few minutes ago, I only see $399 and the other seller also mentioned earlier, Vintage Audio Lab is less but Taiwan.  Just curious if you contacted for price matching/reduction?


 
 Taiwan yes, but it ships from China....


----------



## DreamKing

fccn75 said:


> It's quite interesting that some of you already pre-ordered the LC.  Good to know and looking forward for impressions!
> 
> DreamKing, is the seller Pollychen as mentioned a few post back that you got the price for $350 shipped?  As of a few minutes ago, I only see $399 and the other seller also mentioned earlier, Vintage Audio Lab is less but Taiwan.  Just curious if you contacted for price matching/reduction?


 
  
 Yes, they were probably price matching the Massdrop pre-shipping price from that deal that ended. So now the price went up with this new one. I didn't contact them at all for price matching. There were a few other deals at the same price but Pollychen had the quickest shipping time and estimated delivery. 
  
 The Vintage Audio, Taiwan $351 one one ships in 3 days if you wanna go with that but it's estimated for delivery
  at the earliest in 10 days vs 7 days for Polly (1 day shipping is better too):
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-current-Discrete-Class-A-output-Stage-Headphone-Amplifier-/281670510811?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4194dee8db
  
 All of this is assuming you live or are near Ontario, Canada. Your information will be different obviously if you don't.
  
 Otherwise, try getting a price match from Polly (but like I said, takes them a bit to respond).
  
 Proof too from the Polly deal for US $351.99. I paid CA$433.23 from my Paypal though. Don't know why it's not showing the accurate exchange amount on Ebay. The Canadian dollar vs US$  is so freakin' unstable though so you get a discount today if you buy it at $351.99 right now (CA$424).


----------



## normanl

bavinck said:


> Taiwan yes, but it ships from China....


 
 Vintage audio lab shipped my H10 from Taiwan and received it in 3 days.


----------



## fccn75

DreamKing, thanks for the info.
  
 normanl, also thanks for sharing seller info, btw, how's the packaging that you received?  Is it well protected with additional foam inserts, box within a box, etc?  Overseas shipping is always a concern for me.
  
 Just really tempted by all of this discussion so far.  This hobby is great for the soul - getting audio bliss daily is a great stress reliever from a tired days work but as all of us knows, our wallets continue to complain.  And those who have significant others will also have a different type of stress...


----------



## DreamKing

I just bought it today, but a lot of people are saying the shipping is very fast and the 98.4% feedback is solid from what I read from those that received the Gustard H10 from them. I mostly bought it because of the info ebay provides for their shipping/delivery times from Hong Kong after the looking at the feedback (besides the price). Also, you don't have to worry about custom fees with them either. 
  
 And I hear ya lol I hate it especially because of the weak Canadian dollar but this audio bliss comes with a price.


----------



## bavinck

normanl said:


> Vintage audio lab shipped my H10 from Taiwan and received it in 3 days.


 
 Wow, really??? Good grief, mine came from China and took almost 1 month. I got a good deal though, so I guess it is what it is.


----------



## YtseJamer

dreamking said:


> Okay, one thing worth noting: being in Hong Kong, it takes them a bit to respond. I moved recently, my ebay had my old address and I went too quickly with the payment so I had to contact them within the one-hour Paypal Protection Plan window. It was 2:23AM, 2:32PM their time, but I received a message saying the address was changed this morning though so definitely not the worst response time I've encountered.
> 
> September, damn lol. Yeah, this is a good deal to try in the meantime.


 
  
 Alright thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have decided to try the HE-560 for the third time and I hope that the H10 will be a good match with the 560s and my music.  (Prog & Metal)


----------



## Liu Junyuan

If you want fast shipping times, you need to find a seller who uses DHL. Pollychen is one of them, but you must read the description. For instance, he seems to be using slower shipping for the black U12s while the silver still comes with expedited shipping.

Edit: I suspect this may be related to the fact that black U12s are the most popular of Gustard's current lineup.


----------



## DreamKing

ytsejamer said:


> Alright thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I can't say I'm too much into metal like I used to besides my usual Stoner (Dopethrone, Kyuss), Sludge (Neurosis, etc.), atmospheric black metal and metalcore but I loved what I heard from all of those with the HE-560 out of my current setup. Though, I honestly didn't listen long enough because my taste in music is all over the place and I have to test the headphones with my all of favorite stuff first. I've had them for just about a month only, so it's gonna take some time.
  
 I think the H10 will be good considering all the great reviews it's getting for its synergy with the HE-560. Definitely can't wait to try it out myself. And hopefully it sounds good with the Ether too that I might upgrade to probably at the end of the year.


----------



## YtseJamer

dreamking said:


> I can't say I'm too much into metal like I used to besides my usual Stoner (Dopethrone, Kyuss), Sludge (Neurosis, etc.), atmospheric black metal and metalcore but I loved what I heard from all of those with the HE-560 out of my current setup. Though, I honestly didn't listen long enough because my taste in music is all over the place and I have to test the headphones with my all of favorite stuff first. I've had them for just about a month only, so it's gonna take some time.
> 
> I think the H10 will be good considering all the great reviews it's getting for its synergy with the HE-560. Definitely can't wait to try it out myself. And hopefully it sounds good with the Ether too that I might upgrade to probably at the end of the year.


 
  
 Great thanks!
  
 I'm also planning to buy the Ether later this year, but in the meantime I hope that I won't have any issues with the treble of my new pair of 560s.  
  
 Are you using them with the FocusPad-A ? Jerg mod ?


----------



## DreamKing

ytsejamer said:


> Great thanks!
> 
> I'm also planning to buy the Ether later this year, but in the meantime I hope that I won't have any issues with the treble of my new pair of 560s.
> 
> Are you using them with the FocusPad-A ? Jerg mod ?


 
  
 Negative, all stock. And I don't notice any upper mids/treble peak with my gear.  I tend to avoid mods like the plague. If they can't be fixed with eq, they're gone. Otherwise, I let the equipment do the talking as I'm not the electrical engineering type or whatever you wanna call it lol and would rather keep the stuff I paid for as is.


----------



## normanl

fccn75 said:


> DreamKing, thanks for the info.
> 
> normanl, also thanks for sharing seller info, btw, how's the packaging that you received?  Is it well protected with additional foam inserts, box within a box, etc?  Overseas shipping is always a concern for me.
> 
> Just really tempted by all of this discussion so far.  This hobby is great for the soul - getting audio bliss daily is a great stress reliever from a tired days work but as all of us knows, our wallets continue to complain.  And those who have significant others will also have a different type of stress...


 
 The package including the box I received is in perfect condition. It was protected by two original big foams on both sides with H10 suspended in the air (only one box). To be safe, you may want to make sure that he use the expedited EMS shipping just as he sent it to me on Apr. 22 and received on Apr.25, if you decide to order from him. By the way, the customer service is very good. He usually responded to my emails in less than 20 mins.


----------



## YtseJamer

dreamking said:


> Negative, all stock. And I don't notice any upper mids/treble peak with my gear.  I tend to avoid mods like the plague. If they can't be fixed with eq, they're gone. Otherwise, I let the equipment do the talking as I'm not the electrical engineering type or whatever you wanna call it lol and would rather keep the stuff I paid for as is.


 
  
 Very interesting, so maybe Hifiman have finally fixed the treble issues @ 10khz ?


----------



## DreamKing

ytsejamer said:


> Very interesting, so maybe Hifiman have finally fixed the treble issues @ 10khz ?


 
  
 I don't think so, otherwise they'd let people know I'm sure but that's the HE-500 that has a peak at 10khz. HE-560 has a peak around 4khz but it mostly covers the high mids, it affects the treble at 6khz less. 
  
 http://hifiman.com/Article/?id=374


----------



## YtseJamer

dreamking said:


> I don't think so, otherwise they'd let people know I'm sure but that's the HE-500 that has a peak at 10khz. HE-560 has a peak around 4khz but it mostly covers the high mids, it affects the treble at 6khz less.
> 
> http://hifiman.com/Article/?id=374


 
  
 My bad, thanks for clarifying.
  
 Anyway, let's hope that the H10 will be a good match with the 560's


----------



## stuartmc

ytsejamer said:


> My bad, thanks for clarifying.
> 
> Anyway, let's hope that the H10 will be a good match with the 560's



No worries there. The unequivocal consensus is that it's a fabulous match. My 560's have been going steady with H10 for months with no signs of a breakup.


----------



## genclaymore

I got my gustard H10 from massdrop so it gonna be a long wait til it gets in my hand and see how the H10 and HE-500 do together for my self. Reading people enjoying theirs making it harder for me to wait.


----------



## daltonlanny

HE-500 matches up extremely well with the Gustard H10, imho.


----------



## JoeDoe

daltonlanny said:


> HE-500 matches up extremely well with the Gustard H10, imho.




Agreed!


----------



## Schopenhauer

joedoe said:


> daltonlanny said:
> 
> 
> > HE-500 matches up extremely well with the Gustard H10, imho.
> ...


 
 Indeed!


----------



## DreamKing

Been trying to find this but I can't think of the proper way to search for it in the thread without digging through the whole entire thread:
Do the balanced inputs offer any improvement over SE on this amp?
 edit: found my answer


----------



## Liu Junyuan

ytsejamer said:


> So what's the final verdict regarding the pairing of the H10 with the HE-560 ?
> 
> Thanks!







schopenhauer said:


> Indeed!




Yes!


----------



## Arnotts

100 pages for the Gustard! Impressive for a company with only word-of-mouth advertising outside of China.


----------



## lukeap69

arnotts said:


> 100 pages for the Gustard! Impressive for a company with only word-of-mouth advertising outside of China.


 
 They don't even have a webpage!
  
 But the truth is, a good product is a good product. H10 has proven it's worth and we are lucky to get this level of performance at this price point.


----------



## BassDigger

arnotts said:


> 100 pages for the Gustard! Impressive for a company with only word-of-mouth advertising outside of China.


 
  
 Shall we have a celebration:
  

  
 I don't think it's 'advertised' anywhere at all. I'll try and find out a little about how popular it is in China.


----------



## fccn75

normanl said:


> The package including the box I received is in perfect condition. It was protected by two original big foams on both sides with H10 suspended in the air (only one box). To be safe, you may want to make sure that he use the expedited EMS shipping just as he sent it to me on Apr. 22 and received on Apr.25, if you decide to order from him. By the way, the customer service is very good. He usually responded to my emails in less than 20 mins.


 
 normanl, thanks for the reply, appreciated!  That is extremely quick considering where it's coming from.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Mine was packaged very well, indeed.


----------



## DreamKing

normanl said:


> The package including the box I received is in perfect condition. It was protected by two original big foams on both sides with H10 suspended in the air (only one box). To be safe, you may want to make sure that he use the expedited EMS shipping just as he sent it to me on Apr. 22 and received on Apr.25, if you decide to order from him. By the way, the customer service is very good. He usually responded to my emails in less than 20 mins.


 
  
 Where was it shipped to?


----------



## chongky

Hi, noob here. Have been wondering about this amp as compared to the Lake People G109P. I can get a used LP G109P for slightly less than the price of a new H10 at this moment, but I must act fast...  so here goes...
  
 A few questions:
  
 1) Is H10 dead neutral? I'd prefer a neutral amp so that it matches well with all my (future) headphones...
  
 2) Have been reading raves about H10's ability to drive planar magnetic headphones. How about dynamic HPs, and how does it compare to the G109P in this respect?
  
 3) How powerful is this amp? I know that G109P can drive nearly every single headphone around.
  
  
 Thanks for your input beforehand. It's really gonna be a tough decision... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 decisions, decisions, decisions...


----------



## Koolpep

chongky said:


> Hi, noob here. Have been wondering about this amp as compared to the Lake People G109P. I can get a used LP G109P for slightly less than the price of a new H10 at this moment, but I must act fast...  so here goes...
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> ...




H10 is a clone of the Violectric V200 - exact same specs, check it out at the Lake-people website.

If you can get a G109P I would go for it. I am still debating getting a V200 just to support the "original" as well 

The H10 eats dynamic headphones for breakfast, my HD650 sounds awesome, as do all my other dynamic headphones. 

Cheers,
K


----------



## stuartmc

chongky said:


> Hi, noob here. Have been wondering about this amp as compared to the Lake People G109P. I can get a used LP G109P for slightly less than the price of a new H10 at this moment, but I must act fast...  so here goes...
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> ...




Compare the Violectric V200 to the G109P. I think there are plenty of opinions that the V200 is the superior product in most every way, including the opinion of the manufacturer. Now compare the H10 to the V200. They are very similar, but by design alone, you have to give the win to the H10- more a dual mono design, starting with the dual transformers, an even beefier power supply and shorter signal path. In the sound arena, we have at least one respected member who has owned both and preferred the H10. 

Don't underestimate the flexibility the gain switches provide. They allow me to go from super efficient iem's, to my low impedance planars, all the way up to high impedance cans like my Senns HD600. The amp is dead silent and sounds great on all of them. 

As to neutrality, I would say that it is my kind of neutral. That means that on the great amplifier sound continuum, it falls a little on the tubulicious, warm, full bodied side. Just enough to sound real to me. Any less and it would be a little too dry and analytical. To my ears, the H10 gets this balancing act just right.


----------



## lukeap69

TBH if it was me, I will get the H10. Just read the impressions of the owners on this thread, you will know that H10 punches above its price tag.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

chongky said:


> Hi, noob here. Have been wondering about this amp as compared to the Lake People G109P. I can get a used LP G109P for slightly less than the price of a new H10 at this moment, but I must act fast...  so here goes...
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> ...




This is a difficult choice. I would actually say go for the G109P for two reasons: 

1) H10 is based on the Vioelectric V200 sound, which has a particular signature that is very detailed but slightly warm and velvety up top. You wish for absolute "neutrality". Thus, the G109P would be a better choice. Even though it is just a hint warm, not as much as the H10 or V200. 

2) That price is really nice and will not be around all the time. Build quality of the G109p is sexy. Look at the volume pot. You can always get the H10 later as its price is already misleadingly low. 

P.S. You should search this thread for Flysweep's posts. He has owned all three of these amps and preferred the H10 to all of them. I myself was set on the G109P for months but changed my mind because of his post. I do not regret it at all, but if I could buy the G109P for lower price than the H10, I might have went the other way for the time being. 

They are both amazing amps. They both can drive all types of headphones, the H10sounding fantastic with my HD 650, HE-500, and AKGs--all of which have substantially picky and distinct amping requirements. This amps is very layered, extremely noticeable with the HD 650.


----------



## normanl

dreamking said:


> Where was it shipped to?


 
 To L.A., California


----------



## LancerFIN

For European new G109P and H10 are very close in price.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I see. As I listen to my H10 reading about Bach and drinking my coffee, I am having a hard time suppressing the conviction that this amp is very special. I will plead agnosticism on the matter of the G109 and H10 in order to avoid a guilty conscience! Toss a coin maybe? lol

We need more people who have experiences with both amps to chime in here.


----------



## DreamKing

normanl said:


> To L.A., California


 
  
 Wow that's nice. I checked again and it is being sent Expedited EMS from my dealer so hoping to get it sometime next week.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> I see. As I listen to my H10 reading about Bach and drinking my coffee, I am having a hard time suppressing the conviction that this amp is very special. I will plead agnosticism on the matter of the G109 and H10 in order to avoid a guilty conscience! Toss a coin maybe? lol
> 
> We need more people who have experiences with both amps to chime in here.


 
 I am pretty sure the H10 is going to be end game for me. I am not very well off so I cannot afford to buy anything more expensive, and this amp really makes my he500s (and future Audeze I hope) sing. Can't wait to hear the difference once my X12 gets here.


----------



## FlySweep

Great points all around, Liu..
  
 One thing I will say about the G109.. it might be a hair brighter than the H10 & V200 .. but I found the upper mids/lower treble on the G109 to have a slightly edgy quality.. so there is some cost if you worry about the V200/H10's 'warmth.'  To my ears, the G109's treble wasn't quite as extended or refined as the V200 or H10 either.  Finally.. the G109 (again, to my ears) didn't have the staging and/or imaging capabilities of the V200 or H10.  One more thing.. there's two versions of the G109.. the cheaper version has gain switches on the inside (so you must open the case to change it).
  
 This isn't to knock the G109.. it's a nice amp.. but I prefer the the H10 over it...  for functionality & SQ.


----------



## normanl

dreamking said:


> Wow that's nice. I checked again and it is being sent Expedited EMS from my dealer so hoping to get it sometime next week.


 
 Which store did you order from and how much does it cost?


----------



## DreamKing

normanl said:


> Which store did you order from and how much does it cost?


 
  
 $351.99, pollychen0306 on ebay


----------



## fccn75

Really appreciate all of you chiming in answering inquiries.  Here is another ? for those of you with the H10, how is the temperature of this amp when playing > 1hr?  Since it's class A operation, I would presume it can getting pretty warm next to hot, is this the case?
  
 BTW, just noticed a post much earlier in the beginning, the photo depicting the rear section of the H10 exhibits one XLR without the locking tab.  Wondering is this what you all received or was it just the manufacture's error?
  
 Also, I have been running the Audio-gd NFB 11.32 (early version) and found it to be on lean side.  Any of you have this DAC/amp combo compare the H10?
  
 Liu Junyuan,  how would you describe your pairing of the HD650 with the H10? HE-500? Thanks in advance.


----------



## olek

@fccn75:
  
 Temperature was covered couple pages back - amp gets warm, but not hot, never hot enough to be unpleasant to touch.
  
 Also there was a joke at the beginning of the thread that somebody must have lost a job because of that photo. AFAIK all of us received our H10 with XLR locking tabs intact.
  
 None of the H10 owners here seems to have audio-gd gear to compare. I have audio-gd Precision 1 amp, and H10 amplifies headphones a little better all around (more detail, better soundstage etc), although for 'side benefit' headphone-out jack on Precision 1 is not bad at all.
 Not a fair comparison at all, headphone amp with speaker amp, I know.
  
 I am not Liu, but I think H10 drives HD650 very well, making them distinctly the best headphone in my collection. I could only wish for slightly more suppressed 250Hz and slightly lifted 'below 100Hz' to negate HD650's inherent  weaknesses, but it is pretty good as it is. I do not have HE-500 but everybody is going bananas over that pairing.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

fccn75 said:


> Really appreciate all of you chiming in answering inquiries.  Here is another ? for those of you with the H10, how is the temperature of this amp when playing > 1hr?  Since it's class A operation, I would presume it can getting pretty warm next to hot, is this the case?
> 
> BTW, just noticed a post much earlier in the beginning, the photo depicting the rear section of the H10 exhibits one XLR without the locking tab.  Wondering is this what you all received or was it just the manufacture's error?
> 
> ...


 
 HD 650: Thick, rich, smooth chocolatey goodness, layers after layer, soft on the inside; well-defined shell on the outside. You will perceive extraordinary details, well extended treble paradoxically non-fatiguing; spacious well-defined stage; allows the volume knob to go up without fatigue; noticeably adds layers of sound to the signature, especially apparent when switching out from other amps. Substantial low end without suffocating the mids. On the dark side of neutral. Soft velvety top. Very solid dynamics, not as punchy as my Lyr or as enormous as my LF 339. The amp is never boring with my HD-650s. 
  

  
  
 ...except one could get fatigued from consuming too much of this cake. The H10 remains endlessly palatable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  
 HE-500: I think this has been established already in this thread, firmly. As @stuartmc nicely put it, the H10 "practically fornicates" with planar drivers.


----------



## DreamKing

liu junyuan said:


> HE-500: I think this has been established already in this thread, firmly. As @stuartmc nicely put it, *the H10 "practically fornicates" with planar drivers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 LOL...They should run with that slogan or I nominate stuartmc as head of PR for the H10. I'm only getting more impatient to receive mine.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

dreamking said:


> LOL...They should run with that slogan or I nominate stuartmc as head of PR for the H10. I'm only getting more impatient to receive mine.


 
 He already is the acknowledged captain of the SS Gustard!


----------



## fccn75

*Liu*, just love what you just posted!  Not only was that an excellent analogy but just reminds me how long it's been since I had one of those rich velvety chocolate desert with layers and layers of yummy goodness- Just Deserts still in business?  Fantastic, thanks for those articulate wordings and a big thumbs up!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
*Olek*, interesting point about wanting to suppress this area of 250hz and bumping up slightly below 100Hz.  I presume this will lessen body a bit and increasing lower registers to compensate for the HD's inherent 25Hz roll-off.  So perhaps a pair of AKG will work better to obtain a more neutral response out of the H10.
  
  
 Gosh, can't imagine what the H10 can do for the LCD2.2 with it's flat response way way down below 20HZ - I have a feeling for sure this will take Liu's chocolate analogy to another level of creaminess which is what I'm looking for.  Wallet is really complaining now!


----------



## genclaymore

olek said:


> @fccn75:
> 
> Temperature was covered couple pages back - amp gets warm, but not hot, never hot enough to be unpleasant to touch.
> 
> ...


 

 I glad that it doesn't get that hot.I grab my asgard 2 a couple of time after it been on for a long time to move itand nearly dropped it twice from it burning my hands. Might be able to fry bacon on the asgard 2 since it get that hot.


----------



## fccn75

*genclaymore*, WOW 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, serious about the Asgard getting bacon frying hot??? That may require some mod with additional forced air cooling...OMG.
  
 Interestingly, I have a DIY - SOHA2 (12AU7 hybrid) and with the Hammond case fully enclosed, it was hot so I did just that - drilled many rolls of sequenced holes on top and sides and mounted a small low rpm fan in the back to draw air from the vent holes out toward the back. This really helped and remains cool even for hours.
  
 Any one have info on the schematic of the H10?  Just extremely curious of their design instead of the typical vanilla pre-driver and output bufffer with discrete components.  Like, what makes this so much better than countless designs out there in the same price range?
  
 Was also reading about the Krell KSA50 clone too...Krell, as what I used to remember many years ago was high end territory that is hard to attain.  Now it's clone can be had for <$100 fully assembled w/o case.
  
 I like to see if H10 can marginally drive a HE-6, nah, probably not but at 2.7watts into 50 ohms, hummm...
  
*Liu*,  with your HE-500, how much more body to vocals does the DV339 offer versus the H10?  I know it's hard to quantify but if you don't mind trying, on a scale of 0 to 10?  I am anticipating with the DV339 tube lushness is >7?  How's my assessment?
  
 BTW, forgot to mention, full bodied black coffee with that cake along with listening to some Andy Sheppard or something like Shanghai Restoration Project - Classics will be my weekend enjoyment!


----------



## olek

fccn75 said:


> *Olek*, interesting point about wanting to suppress this area of 250hz and bumping up slightly below 100Hz.  I presume this will lessen body a bit and increasing lower registers to compensate for the HD's inherent 25Hz roll-off.  So perhaps a pair of AKG will work better to obtain a more neutral response out of the H10.


 
  
 Its not about H10, its about HD650 with their slight midbass bump. NAD 1020 that I have has this kind of response - stronger sub-bas with weaker mid-bas (mind you, we are talking about small differences here), and while it's sound is inferior to H10's sound in most categories, in some genres it makes HD650 sound clearer and more realistic, and when I switch from it to H10 I really crave that extra bit of sub-bass. Funny enough, with K553, H10 manages to improve their low end extension, so it really depends on the phones. I would love to try H10 with AKG 7xx, but worry about them not fitting well on my very large noggin.
  
 LCD 2.2 should be fantastic with H10.
  
@genclaymore Wow, that asgard 2 sure sounds like a very hot amplifier  H10 is much more civilized in that respect, you can leave it on for DAYS and it will not try to burn you, and if temperature in the room is on the cold side (60 degrees ?) it is not even really warm to the touch.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

fccn75 said:


> *genclaymore*, WOW :eek: , serious about the Asgard getting bacon frying hot??? That may require some mod with additional forced air cooling...OMG.
> 
> Interestingly, I have a DIY - SOHA2 (12AU7 hybrid) and with the Hammond case fully enclosed, it was hot so I did just that - drilled many rolls of sequenced holes on top and sides and mounted a small low rpm fan in the back to draw air from the vent holes out toward the back. This really helped and remains cool even for hours.
> 
> ...




The LF 339 is relatively new. I mainly bought it for high Z cans, relegating my planars and AKG to the H10 and Lyr. I have just yesterday received new tubes so am burning them in still. 

You are very well informed that you realize the LF 339 is one of few otl amps that can drive planars well. While I have been doing most of my listening through the HD 650, I will make a point to critically listen to the HE-500s, keeping in my mind that I lack the TS 5998s, which are the recommended power tube (due to higher gain) for planars. My main power tubes I just got are the RCA 6A7SG, which most experienced owners of the amp consider best for the HD 650 and other dynamic drivers. 

So, I will post back after some time 

Regarding the chocolate analogy: looking at the picture one sees a crunchy lower end, not unlike the textured, hard-hitting bass of the H10 (when the recording calls for it).


----------



## pippen99

olek said:


> @genclaymore Wow, that asgard 2 sure sounds like a very hot amplifier  H10 is much more civilized in that respect, you can leave it on for DAYS and it will not try to burn you, and if temperature in the room is on the cold side (60 degrees ?) it is not even really warm to the touch.


 
 It must be a Schiit thing.  I attended the Nashville meet and Dan (Mr Speakers) had a Yggdrasil/Ragnarok stack there to demo the Ether.  You could practically see the heat waves coming off the units.  The Yggy was generating almost as much heat as the Ragnarok.
  
 I turn the H10 on about 20 minutes before I plan to listen, then leave it on for the rest of the day.  No heat concerns!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

My Lyr can get very hot, but it is a complete non-issue. 

The H10 does not get hot at all. It is hardly even warm.


----------



## Schopenhauer

I don't recall my H10 ever getting particularly hot. Perhaps a little warm.


----------



## BassDigger

liu junyuan said:


> HD 650: Thick, rich, smooth chocolatey goodness, layers after layer, soft on the inside; well-defined shell on the outside. You will perceive extraordinary details, well extended treble paradoxically non-fatiguing; spacious well-defined stage; allows the volume knob to go up without fatigue; noticeably adds layers of sound to the signature, especially apparent when switching out from other amps. Substantial low end without suffocating the mids. On the dark side of neutral. Soft velvety top. Very solid dynamics, not as punchy as my Lyr or as enormous as my LF 339. The amp is never boring with my HD-650s.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 YUMMY!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Great simile/analogy (I can't decide which)! I'm living away from home, in a country that (you may be familiar with) doesn't have much in the way of quality confectionary, and that cake looks awesome. It just needs some cream; clotted, where I come from, but double cream will do, and that proper cup of coffee.
 If the H10 is half as good as your pic, and description, I'll be a happy(er) man.
  


olek said:


> Its not about H10, its about HD650 with their slight midbass bump. NAD 1020 that I have has this kind of response - stronger sub-bas with weaker mid-bas (mind you, we are talking about small differences here), and while it's sound is inferior to H10's sound in most categories, in some genres it makes HD650 sound clearer and more realistic, and *when I switch from it to H10 I really crave that extra bit of sub-bass. Funny enough, with K553, H10 manages to improve their low end extension, so it really depends on the phones*. I would love to try H10 with AKG 7xx, but worry about them not fitting well on my very large noggin.
> 
> LCD 2.2 should be fantastic with H10.
> ...


 
  
 The posters on here are more patient and understanding than I am; it's nice if people look for an answer, before asking a question. (It's also nice if they understand the answer that they get.)
  
@olek As my moniker may imply, bass extension is something that's quite important to me. As I understand it, you find that the HD650 has less bass extension, with the H10 (compared to your NAD), but the akg k553 has better extension; better resolution and power for those lowest notes.
  
 I've just done a quick 'spec search'; it appears that the two phones are quite different, electrically speaking, particularly the impedance; 300ohms (hd650) vs 32 for the k553. This may well be the factor that's causing the apparent difference.
 It's a relief for me to see that the phones that have an impedance more like my chosen transducers, the lcd2f, are the ones that you find have the better bass response with the H10.
  
 (I've checked your profile, but I'm bugg.... I haven't the time to read all your posts) Have you a pair of lcd2's, or any planar, with which to make a comparison?
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

liu junyuan said:


> My Lyr can get very hot, but it is a complete non-issue.
> 
> The H10 does not get hot at all. It is hardly even warm.



Any class A amp generates heat- and depending on your headphone sensitivity the Lyr may not go into A/B mode on the peaks.
My Lyr gets warm but I can leave my hand on it without discomfort. It almost gets to warm for long contact when I run higher current tubes like the 6N1P's- but even then it does not burn


----------



## olek

bassdigger said:


> @olek As my moniker may imply, bass extension is something that's quite important to me. As I understand it, you find that the HD650 has less bass extension, with the H10 (compared to your NAD), but the akg k553 has better extension; better resolution and power for those lowest notes.


 
  
 I am sorry that I was not stating myself more clearly, and I think I have misled you. Bass is better when I use HD650 with NAD as compared with using HD650 with H10. And vise versa, bass is getting better when I switch K553 from NAD to H10. But no matter the amplification, bass is ALWAYS significantly better on HD650 than K553. It is deeper, and much better textured, while K553 stops short of deep bass extension and their bass is more 'liquid' (lacks detail). No slamming of K553, they are great, but they just can not compete with HD650 in detail and low bass extension.
  
 I do not own any planars, and just rely on my observation that H10 seems to give a little more (relative) improvement to my lower impedance headphones. Good match of H10 and planars is also unanimous opinion of all planar owners here. One of us here mentioned that H10 shortened the gap between 400i and 560 phones by giving 400i (known to be easier to drive)  quite a bit of extra boost in performance. I think H10 just gives easier to drive phones some extra love (while being no slouch with difficult phones), and that makes it especially attractive to us bargain hunters, because manufacturers frequently try to make headphones in mid-fi category easier to drive.
  
 Could be wrong in that extrapolation, it is a little bit far fetched


----------



## Liu Junyuan

exacoustatowner said:


> Any class A amp generates heat- and depending on your headphone sensitivity the Lyr may not go into A/B mode on the peaks.
> My Lyr gets warm but I can leave my hand on it without discomfort. It almost gets to warm for long contact when I run higher current tubes like the 6N1P's- but even then it does not burn




Yeah, as I said, it's not a problem. My LF 339 gets much hotter. I like the Lyr's temp to be frank.


----------



## Exacoustatowner

liu junyuan said:


> Yeah, as I said, it's not a problem. My LF 339 gets much hotter. I like the Lyr's temp to be frank.



 I'd not thought of it but I do too!! I think it sounds great when it's warmed up- so I associate the heat with great sound. Listening to Michael Tilson Mahler 6 right now with some Russian Reflektor 1974's and He-560's!
I could use a longer cable though


----------



## Liu Junyuan

exacoustatowner said:


> I'd not thought of it but I do too!! I think it sounds great when it's warmed up- so I associate the heat with great sound. Listening to Michael Tilson Mahler 6 right now with some Russian Reflektor 1974's and He-560's!
> I could use a longer cable though




I derive the same association, although I cannot say I have been convinced of Mahler's greatness just yet. lol


----------



## DreamKing

olek said:


> I do not own any planars, and just rely on my observation that H10 seems to give a little more (relative) improvement to my lower impedance headphones. Good match of H10 and planars is also unanimous opinion of all planar owners here. One of us here mentioned that *H10 shortened the gap between 400i and 560 phones by giving 400i (known to be easier to drive)  quite a bit of extra boost in performance. *I think H10 just gives easier to drive phones some extra love (while being no slouch with difficult phones), and that makes it especially attractive to us bargain hunters, because manufacturers frequently try to make headphones in mid-fi category easier to drive.
> 
> Could be wrong in that extrapolation, it is a little bit far fetched


 
  
 The H10, from everything I've read here and the fact that it outputs 2700 mW into 50 ohms when the HE-560 only needs 1W to reach 120dB at 50 ohms, can only make the gap narrower if the HE-560 is powered from a lesser amp that can't drive them. 
  
 Only thing to determine is whether the synergy will be good enough for the listener.


----------



## vlach

liu junyuan said:


> This is a difficult choice. I would actually say go for the G109P for two reasons:
> 
> 1) H10 is based on the Vioelectric V200 sound, which has a particular signature that is very detailed but slightly warm and velvety up top. You wish for absolute "neutrality". Thus, the G109P would be a better choice. Even though it is just a hint warm, not as much as the H10 or V200.
> 
> ...




Have you heard the G109P?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

vlach said:


> Have you heard the G109P?




No. Have you?


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> I am sorry that I was not stating myself more clearly, and I think I have misled you. Bass is better when I use HD650 with NAD as compared with using HD650 with H10. And vise versa, bass is getting better when I switch K553 from NAD to H10. But no matter the amplification, bass is ALWAYS significantly better on HD650 than K553. It is deeper, and much better textured, while K553 stops short of deep bass extension and their bass is more 'liquid' (lacks detail). No slamming of K553, they are great, but they just can not compete with HD650 in detail and low bass extension.
> 
> I do not own any planars, and just rely on my observation that H10 seems to give a little more (relative) improvement to my lower impedance headphones. Good match of H10 and planars is also unanimous opinion of all planar owners here. One of us here mentioned that H10 shortened the gap between 400i and 560 phones by giving 400i (known to be easier to drive)  quite a bit of extra boost in performance. I think H10 just gives easier to drive phones some extra love (while being no slouch with difficult phones), and that makes it especially attractive to us bargain hunters, because manufacturers frequently try to make headphones in mid-fi category easier to drive.
> 
> Could be wrong in that extrapolation, it is a little bit far fetched


 
  
 Actually, I think that I got you, both times. It looks like it was my post that caused confusion.
  
 Regardless of how the hd650 compares with the k553 overall, you've found that the bass response with these phones sounds better with different amps: NAD (pre-amp?) better for the hd650 and H10 for the k553. As the hd650 has literally 10x the impedance of the k553, and also general experience shows, it's reasonable to believe that the impedance is the main factor; the H10 likes it low, for best results.
 It seems that neither hp is regarded as having good deep bass characteristics. I hope that the H10's low impedance performance 'extends' to the lcd2!
  
 BTW, I think that the experience and observation is much more important than the theory.


----------



## ginetto61

liu junyuan said:


> *...   H10 is based on the Vioelectric V200 sound ... *


 
  
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting information and valuable advice.
Could you elaborate that "based on" ? you mean maybe "clone "  ?
have you been able to analyze the actual design of the two amps ?
However i like very very much the extremely simplicity of the other amp you also mentioned ... the Lake People STEREO HEADPHONES AMPLIFIER G109-P 
http://www.headfonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/DSCN0226.jpg
What is it ? an op-amp followed by a diamond buffer ?  great !
I am sure it sounds fantastic ... it reminds me a little of the Beyerdinamic A1.
Very very beautiful ... i wonder why headphone amps cannot be that simple seriously. 
Any amp from Gustard "based on" this one maybe ?
I would buy it immediately ... 
Thanks a lot again for the very helpful advice,   gino


----------



## Liu Junyuan

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting information and valuable advice.
> Could you elaborate that "based on" ? you mean maybe "clone "  ?
> have you been able to analyze the actual design of the two amps ?
> However i like very very much the extremely simplicity of the other amp you also mentioned ... the Lake People STEREO HEADPHONES AMPLIFIER G109-P
> ...




No, I cannot elaborate. You will need to research the history of impressions following the H10 on your own. I am not an encyclopedia. 

There is a search bar at the top of this page which allows you to actually consider and think about what you want to know, as opposed to philistine impulsive posts that betray the incredible laziness of their posters. Let us use yours as a supreme example of Schiit posting, shall we?


----------



## ginetto61

Hi ok thanks a lot anyway
 It is that "based on" that triggered my natural curiosity
 maybe i am the only one curious around
 Looking at the pictures available on the web the Violectric amp and the Gustard appear very similarly laid-out. Very.
 I have nothing against Gustard. Actually i am an happy Gustard customer and owner of the U12 interface
 I will try to find if it is indeed a clone or not somewhere else
 The fact that the H10 is "following" a very successful design is a trump card for Gustard i guess
 Moreover i do not know what you mean about Schiit but the Asgard actually it interests me a lot
 I have decided not to buy it because i am worried about the heat generated and possible reliability issues.
 and also for the mains transformers mounted on the circuit pcb
 But i guess the design is very good indeed, judging from the reviews
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## chongky

flysweep said:


> Great points all around, Liu..
> 
> One thing I will say about the G109.. it might be a hair brighter than the H10 & V200 .. but I found the upper mids/lower treble on the G109 to have a slightly edgy quality.. so there is some cost if you worry about the V200/H10's 'warmth.'  To my ears, the G109's treble wasn't quite as extended or refined as the V200 or H10 either.  Finally.. the G109 (again, to my ears) didn't have the staging and/or imaging capabilities of the V200 or H10.  One more thing.. there's two versions of the G109.. the cheaper version has gain switches on the inside (so you must open the case to change it).
> 
> This isn't to knock the G109.. it's a nice amp.. but I prefer the the H10 over it...  for functionality & SQ.


 
 OK, I'm sold! I'm gonna let the used G109P offer go. Thanks to FlySweep, Liu and Stuartmc et al., for their wonderful input. 
  
 Funny how amps sound different when they are supposed to "wire with gain"? I'm otherwise in no hurry to get an amp (my low-impedance Fidelio X2 can be driven well by my O2 amp), but I will get the H10 some day in the (near? hopeful) future. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I'm an easily satisfied listener, I hope this SS amp can be my endgame amp too.


----------



## chongky

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ok thanks a lot anyway
> It is that "based on" that triggered my natural curiosity
> maybe i am the only one curious around
> Looking at the pictures available on the web the Violectric amp and the Gustard appear very similarly laid-out. Very.
> ...


 
 China is famous for their shangzhai goods. Not surprising they can produce well-built clones of more famous counterparts. Not that I'm complaining. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It means my wallet will smile a lot.
  
 I'm thinking of the Gustard X12 or X20 too. The price is right....


----------



## daltonlanny

chongky said:


> OK, I'm sold! I'm gonna let the used G109P offer go. Thanks to FlySweep, Liu and Stuartmc et al., for their wonderful input.
> 
> Funny how amps sound different when they are supposed to "wire with gain"? I'm otherwise in no hurry to get an amp (my low-impedance Fidelio X2 can be driven well by my O2 amp), but I will get the H10 some day in the (near? hopeful) future. :wink_face:   I'm an easily satisfied listener, I hope this SS amp can be my endgame amp too.




Its also strange how all headphone amps can sound so different when they all basically measure dead flat on frequency response.
This also applies to digital disc players, music file players, DAC's, headphones, home audio amps and gear, headphones and even cables.
Just goes to show that frequency response measurements and many other measurements can't always be relied upon to determine how any audio gear might sound.
Equipment that measures almost dead equal, can sound distinctly different. 
This is why amps and other gear needs to be sonically evaluated by the consumer, and even compared head to head when at all possible.
Its all like the old rubiks cube....thousands of different combinations to try, and very frustating and confusing until you get the right combination. Lol.


----------



## chongky

daltonlanny said:


> Its also strange how all headphone amps can sound so different when they all basically measure dead flat on frequency response.
> This also applies to digital disc players, music file players, DAC's, headphones, home audio amps and gear, headphones and even cables.
> Just goes to show that frequency response measurements and many other measurements can't always be relied upon to determine how any audio gear might sound.
> Equipment that measures almost dead equal, can sound distinctly different.
> ...


 
 Interestingly, at Innerfidelity website Lake People CEO Fried Reim has this to say about amps sounding different:
  
  
 "You are right, a properly made headphone amp from any brand will most times measure ruler flat concerning the frequency response in the audible range and far above. But here is where the differences begin. Every designer has his own approachabout how far the frequency range should spread. The unwanted regions are cut by the use of capacitors.
  
 "As you know, the frequency edges are defined at -3 dB. And at this point we also are faced with a 90 degree phase shift. Cutting the low end at, lets say, 3, 5, or 10Hz is of minor interest in my opinion. You can't hear that low with a headphone anyway, so frequency or phase shift issues are really negligible.
  
 "All this is more critical when cutting the high edge of the frequency range. A limitation to 50 kHz (-3dB) will affect the 20 kHz level by about 0.5 dB (which is not critical) but also by a noticeable phase shift at this point and below. So somebody might argue: why not kick off all these upper frequency limitations ... and in fact, some manufacturers do so. But in times of massive electromagnetic interference from everywhere it is not very intelligent to design an amp which is capable of amplifying long wave radio frequencies. Also, any CE or FCC certifications will be out of reach.
  
 "Even when there is no specially designed frequency limitation, real life audio electronics are limited by component issues. These are described as GBW (Gain Band Width) and slew rate. The higher the feedback gain, the lower the GBW and the slew rate. And here we come to another reason for sonic differences: although the frequency response is flat and (measured) distortions are low, low internal gain (+8 dB, a factor of 2.5 with Lake People/Violectric models) not only keeps the noise floor low, but also allows for high GBW and high slew rate.
  
 "But in my opinion most sonic differences are caused by impedances. The output impedance from the amp will always interact with the impedance from the headphone. This will have more or less influence on the frequency response and thus affecting the sound of the connected headphone. In some cases this will support your personal preferences, in some cases not. In former times when most premium headphones had high impedances this was not a big issue. But many of today's premium headphones have low impedance.
  
 "It is very difficult to measure what really is input to the human ear. So frequency/impedance interactions are most times calculated theoretically and displayed in a 2-dimensional curve, or better (as there is also an SPL interaction) in a 3-dimensional "waterfall" model. Perhaps you have seen MLSSA measurements from loudspeakers in different rooms. The headphone listeners "living room" is between the transducer and his ear, but also affected by the individual shape of the outer-ear and inner-ear. And here the whole thing goes beyond perfect measurability ...and thus a subject for personal taste, tales, magic ..."
  
  
 Some argue that Class A amps are superior sonically to Class A/B amps as well. Far as I know Violetric V200 is A/B class while the H10 is a Class A topology...


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *chongky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> China is famous for their shangzhai goods. Not surprising they can produce well-built clones of more famous counterparts.
> Not that I'm complaining.
> 
> ...


 
  
Hi and thanks for the kind and helpful reply
From the point of a potential customer i am on the same track.  As i was when the first Beyerdynamic A1 clones appeared on the market at around 1/4 of the price of the original.
Surely the originals can still have selected parts, better finish and nicer case.
But what matters is the sound.  
As i said i have a U12 and the previous U10 by Gustard and i am very pleased with them.  Good and reliable products IMHE.
Thanks again,  gino


----------



## vlach

liu junyuan said:


> No. Have you?




So let me get this straight; you're actually recommending something you haven't heard? Really?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

vlach said:


> So let me get this straight; you're actually recommending something you haven't heard? Really?




Hi there vlach. 

Yes, but I have made a number of caveats crucial here. I agree with the principle of recommending gear we have heard because nothing can replace experience. But there are limitations to this as well, to a certain extent; otherwise, there would be no reason to read or believe anything you read at all unless you have experienced it. Skepticism is healthy; extreme skepticism, in this case not believing anything at all that anyone ever says about a piece of gear that I have not experienced, is not only absurd but ideological--despite the pretense of being free of ideology, which in truth none of us are. 

I usually will not make such recommendations. I try to maintain a balanced perspective at all times. In fact, I chose the H10 instead of the G109, which I was certain I would buy for several months. Thus, I suppressed my own choices because I read what the inquirer was asking (and I believed him, too), putting his needs before my needs. The fact that he can get a cheaper deal also swayed my initial suggestion.

Here is why I gestures toward the G109P in the context of the conversation. Speaking of context, look at my next posts after the cherry-picked one...

The context includes a matter of comparison between two amps, one of which I have experienced and own. It also includes the important and central determining factor in my loose recommendation that the original poster wanted a "neutral" amp. 

The H 10 is not "neutral." So I looked at his other option. Now, the G109 is a well-documented, highly regarded amp. After reading many official reviews testifying to its relative neutrality and universal ability to drive any headphones (inner fidelity one is solid), after reading through the entire G109 thread on headfi, after exchanging PMs with well-regarded posters on this site who HAVE experienced this amp and have compared it to other amps such as the Yulong A28 and Meier Classic, I feel reasonably confident in the conclusion that A) the Lake People flagship amp is going to be brighter than the H10 and V200 but less bright than the Meier Classic (that is, very slightly warm compared to the even more "neutral" Meier [which I have confirmed by means of PMs with people owning both]) and that B) it meets the conditions of what the original question was seeking more closely. 

But looking at Flysweep's follow-up (to whom I initially deferred in my cherry-picked post ), he still prefers the H10 for several reasons. I now would like to defer to him as a better authority than me since he is the reason I bough the H10 instead of the G109 in the first place. 

Perhaps the inquirer would prefer the H10 in the end, but then the terms would need to morph into the ability to accept a less "neutral" presentation for the sake of, according to Flysweep, a superior sonic experience. 

Have a good day


----------



## Liu Junyuan

vlach said:


> So let me get this straight; you're actually recommending something you haven't heard? Really?




How do you like the Lekerton btw? is it okay if I believe what you tell me about it? 

I had my eye on the UHA-S MK-II. It looks like a sweet amp. But I have heard from a friend he is releasing a new one soon.


----------



## vlach

daltonlanny said:


> Its also strange how all headphone amps can sound so different when they all basically measure dead flat on frequency response.
> This also applies to digital disc players, music file players, DAC's, headphones, home audio amps and gear, headphones and even cables.
> Just goes to show that frequency response measurements and many other measurements can't always be relied upon to determine how any audio gear might sound.
> Equipment that measures almost dead equal, can sound distinctly different.
> ...




Well said. Besides I don't take manufacturers published specs religiously.


----------



## BassDigger

vlach said:


> Well said. Besides I don't take manufacturers published specs religiously.


 
  
 ...and specs, figures and measurements probably don't even tell half the story. They can just give a rough guide on how we can expect something to perform.


----------



## vlach

liu junyuan said:


> Hi there vlach.
> 
> Yes, but I have made a number of caveats crucial here. I agree with the principle of recommending gear we have heard because nothing can replace experience. But there are limitations to this as well, to a certain extent; otherwise, there would be no reason to read or believe anything you read at all unless you have experienced it. Skepticism is healthy; extreme skepticism, in this case not believing anything at all that anyone ever says about a piece of gear that I have not experienced, is not only absurd but ideological--despite the pretense of being free of ideology, which in truth none of us are.
> 
> ...




Liu,

Thank you for taking the time to respond and elaborating on your stand point. I think my comment/question was fair and I appreciate your explanation. 
That said neutrality and other subjective descriptions, perceptions, etc based from other people's experiences often have a tendency to change (for better or worse) once we experience the gear in question ourself. At least that's the way i feel about it. 
All good


----------



## vlach

liu junyuan said:


> How do you like the Lekerton btw? is it okay if I believe what you tell me about it?
> 
> I had my eye on the UHA-S MK-II. It looks like a sweet amp. But I have heard from a friend he is releasing a new one soon.


----------



## vlach

liu junyuan said:


> How do you like the Lekerton btw? is it okay if I believe what you tell me about it?
> 
> I had my eye on the UHA-S MK-II. It looks like a sweet amp. But I have heard from a friend he is releasing a new one soon.




Tell you what; I don't think you should believe what I would have to say about it if I didn't own it.
Given that I do own it and having compared it with several other amps/DACs, then my credibility is up to you I guess.
My assessment of the Leck is as positive as can be, especially for a portable. How close it performs compared to my Bryston BHA-1 is actually disturbing! Not only is it smooth, clean, rich, warm with an open midrange presentation but it is also completely grain-free. 
It is one of the very best purchases I have made 

Edit: My comments above only apply to the 'amp' section of the Leckerton.


----------



## ginetto61

daltonlanny said:


> Its also *strange how all headphone amps can sound so different when they all basically measure dead flat on frequency response... *


 
  
 Hi and this is easy.   
 1)  freq response is ONE test.  What about distortion in its various form ? 
 2)  conditions of test.  Usually the load is a simple resistor.  No HP acts as a pure resistive load. No one in the world !  so this test is telling very little.
 I have a simple advice.
 Select a complex load, with not only R but also L and C.   A very difficult load.
 And then repeat all the measurments on that load (not only FR but also many different distortion measurements).
*I am pretty sure we will see very remarkable differences from amp to amp.*  Very very different behaviour indeed.
  
 And then i would take this opportunity to strike a bolw for an *high quality and high power buffer solution.*
  
 An extremely high quality buffer able to drive any HP easily, adding no voltage gain, would allow to use any line preamp of choice(tube or SS, unbalanced or balanced)  with any HP
 I have already at least 3 very good line preamp.  Unfortunately i cannot drive directly HP.
 That buffer would allow that and i am sure the outcome would be excellent.  
 I wonder why no one proposes a very high quality buffer of the kind of Burson but with HP loads in mind.
 And speaking of buffer the very elegant " diamond buffer " comes to mind ... 
 Regards,  gino


----------



## chongky

I did the unthinkable...I actually bought the H10 at ebay.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Pollychen seems to have marked his price up to US$399 at ebay?


----------



## BassDigger

chongky said:


> I did the unthinkable...I actually bought the H10 at ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 OMG!! $399!!! What have you done? The general consensus seems that the H10 could sell for $1000+ Oh, you've been so ripped off!!




 OK, sarcastic hysterics aside, it seems that you could have got it cheaper, but I doubt that will bother you; both Pollychen and the H10 seem to have a good rep, around here!


----------



## xevman

Currently have a Woo Audio WA6 and upgrading to orthos soon (he-560) and need something that can swing a lot of current as orthos love it. Then I came across this gem, should I bite the bullet? Currently using Sennheiser HD600 and Denon AH D2000s. Skimming through this thread it seems to be a pretty safe and sensible choice.


----------



## JoeDoe

xevman said:


> Currently have a Woo Audio WA6 and upgrading to orthos soon (he-560) and need something that can swing a lot of current as orthos love it. Then I came across this gem, should I bite the bullet? Currently using Sennheiser HD600 and Denon AH D2000s. Skimming through this thread it seems to be a pretty safe and sensible choice.


 

 Absolutely!


----------



## xevman

joedoe said:


> Absolutely!


 
 I also have a dacmagic 100 so my chain will be similar to yours when its all said and done. How do you find the combo with the He500s?


----------



## JoeDoe

xevman said:


> I also have a dacmagic 100 so my chain will be similar to yours when its all said and done. How do you find the combo with the He500s?


 

 Sublime! It's by far the best setup from which I've heard my 500s. Tons of power, plenty of speed, and great sensitivity with a pitch black background.


----------



## xevman

joedoe said:


> Sublime! It's by far the best setup from which I've heard my 500s. Tons of power, plenty of speed, and great sensitivity with a pitch black background.


 
 I'm keen to purchase it now, I need to find a buyer for my WA6 first. Love the fact how the gain can be customized I can pretty much power every kind of headphone from it. I'd keep my WA6 i love the amp but unfortunately 500mw isnt ideal for Orthos, they'd definitely be more then loud enough but i wont be getting the most from them.


----------



## DreamKing

chongky said:


> I did the unthinkable...I actually bought the H10 at ebay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, it was but the $50 difference from the price I paid isn't too bad considering the glowing reviews this thing is getting.
  
 Also mine just shipped since waiting because of the chinese holiday today so super excited!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

vlach said:


> Tell you what; I don't think you should believe what I would have to say about it if I didn't own it.
> Given that I do own it and having compared it with several other amps/DACs, then my credibility is up to you I guess.
> My assessment of the Leck is as positive as can be, especially for a portable. How close it performs compared to my Bryston BHA-1 is actually disturbing! Not only is it smooth, clean, rich, warm with an open midrange presentation but it is also completely grain-free.
> It is one of the very best purchases I have made
> ...




I have heard this from other sources as well outside of headfi. I really want a Leck for a nice "neutral" sound to replace my O2 but I am curious to hear if there is a new amp coming . I fully believe the amp is outstanding. A particular poster here who loved the H10 now owns the Leck


----------



## Liu Junyuan

joedoe said:


> Sublime! It's by far the best setup from which I've heard my 500s. Tons of power, plenty of speed, and great sensitivity with a pitch black background.




Yes.


----------



## Koolpep

joedoe said:


> Sublime! It's by far the best setup from which I've heard my 500s. Tons of power, plenty of speed, and great sensitivity with a pitch black background.


 

 Indeed - the more I listen to the my music with various headphones on the H10 - the more I am convinced that I reached my personal money/performance equilibrium.
  
 That's it.... 
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## ginetto61

vlach said:


> Tell you what; I don't think you should believe what I would have to say about it if I didn't own it.
> Given that I do own it and having compared it with several other amps/DACs, then my credibility is up to you I guess.
> My assessment of the Leck is as positive as can be, especially for a portable. How close it performs compared to my Bryston BHA-1 is actually disturbing! Not only is it smooth, clean, rich, warm with an open midrange presentation but it is also completely grain-free.
> It is one of the very best purchases I have made
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! it seems that the link to the actual model is not working on the Leckerton site ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Could you provide a link to the Leckerton amp you are using ?  i am trying to get some info
 Interesting this OPA609 ... impressive specs indeed and quite robust current output
 Very very interesting
 If you open a specific thread with your impressions i would like to know please
 Actually I think this amp deserves its own thread .... also the review is extremely positive
 Moreover also the OPA609 would deserve some further discussion ... maybe in the DIY section.
 That would be a miracle of opamp to drive HPs ... it can be used even with higher V supply !!!!
 And even with single supply ... i have to study it in depth .... just great.
 Thanks a alot,   gino


----------



## lukeap69

koolpep said:


> Indeed - the more I listen to the my music with various headphones on the H10 - the more I am convinced that I reached my personal money/performance equilibrium.
> 
> That's it....
> 
> ...




Ralf

Then don't hang out too much with Punit with his big toys then. You might change your mind... LOL


----------



## Koolpep

lukeap69 said:


> Ralf
> 
> Then don't hang out too much with Punit with his big toys then. You might change your mind... LOL





Yes. A real thread. ,lol

Do I see you Friday.


----------



## xevman

Does anyone have the power output rating of this amplifier at various impedances?


----------



## Walderstorn

Has any of you guys compared the Gustard h10 with musical fidelity m1 hpap? They both have the same price +/- and the m1 had great reviews even though they dont have balance outputs and in my inexperience im really torn between both. I have hd600 and hd598 with a musical fidelity v90 dac, my old amp was crap.


----------



## BassDigger

xevman said:


> Does anyone have the power output rating of this amplifier at various impedances?


 
  
 Yeah, seek and thee shall find 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 (Try looking at the first post by the thread starter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## xevman

bassdigger said:


> Yeah, seek and thee shall find
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 oh wow i completely missed that :/ Placing my order for this beast tomorrow very keen to try it out with a wide variety of headphones.


----------



## Walderstorn

walderstorn said:


> Has any of you guys compared the Gustard h10 with musical fidelity m1 hpap? They both have the same price +/- and the m1 had great reviews even though they dont have balance outputs and in my inexperience im really torn between both. I have hd600 and hd598 with a musical fidelity v90 dac, my old amp was crap.


 
 I guess almost no1 has experience with the m1 so im stuck in a limbo. Even though im looking more at the gustard just to think it will take almost 1 month to arrive because of customs + almost 80 dollars off customs taxes and fees are really messing me up.
  
 If any of u guys from europe want to sell yours please PM.


----------



## chongky

dreamking said:


> Yes, it was but the $50 difference from the price I paid isn't too bad considering the glowing reviews this thing is getting.
> 
> Also mine just shipped since waiting because of the chinese holiday today so super excited!


 
 Super excited too! I got it from seller vintage audio lab though, considering a $50 difference in price i wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer for the H10.


----------



## DreamKing

Price is back down to $351 from Pollychen again.
  
 I don't know what the constant price changing is based on but, to my knowledge, it seems like the best price you can find the H10 at consistently for anyone interested right now.
  


walderstorn said:


> I guess almost no1 has experience with the m1 so im stuck in a limbo. Even though im looking more at the gustard just to think it will take almost 1 month to arrive because of customs + almost 80 dollars off customs taxes and fees are really messing me up.
> 
> If any of u guys from europe want to sell yours please PM.


 
  
 M1 is probably too weak for the HD600. Did you search for information regarding its output at 300ohms, or other people that have that pairing?
  
 Also, dealers usually can do everything they can to help, as far as custom fees. Shouldn't worry about that if you. If you know how custom fees work in your country, they can help or they already value it low as gift/sample anyway, usually (you have to read the dealer's shipping notes).
  


chongky said:


> Super excited too! I got it from seller vintage audio lab though, considering a $50 difference in price i wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer for the H10.


 
  
 Yeah good choice, it's the best price to buy it.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

dreamking said:


> Price is back down to $351 from Pollychen again.
> 
> I don't know what the constant price changing is based on but, to my knowledge, it seems like the best price you can find the H10 at consistently for anyone interested right now.
> 
> ...




That is a very good price.


----------



## Walderstorn

Yeap price went down because i emailed them yesterday since another seller was selling for that price so they did a price-match.
  
 About customs @DreamKing you have no idea how berserk they are in my country, its got to be one of the worst countries in that regard, not only is it brutally high, they stop a ridiculously high number of packages if they come from outside EU, not only that its 23% vat + 10-30€ fee and even on top of that they have burocracy up the ying-yang if they decide to hold your package, but i guess i'll have to try it.


----------



## vlach

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! it seems that the link to the actual model is not working on the Leckerton site ?
> Could you provide a link to the Leckerton amp you are using ?  i am trying to get some info
> Interesting this OPA609 ... impressive specs indeed and quite robust current output
> Very very interesting
> ...




Hi Gino,

I have the previous model, see attached photos. I'm not aware of a specific thread for it though...I think Leckerton was not that well known back then - 2012ish. I don't think creating a thread for it now would generate any traction since the Mkll is out...

Also i never got a clear answer after reading over 2000 pages of the UHA-6S Mkll thread as to whether or not there is any SQ difference between the two amp sections.


----------



## ginetto61

vlach said:


> Hi Gino,
> I have the previous model, see attached photos. I'm not aware of a specific thread for it though...I think Leckerton was not that well known back then - 2012ish. I don't think creating a thread for it now would generate any traction since the Mkll is out...
> Also i never got a clear answer after reading over 2000 pages of the UHA-6S Mkll thread as to whether or not there is any SQ difference between the two amp sections.





> Hi thanks a lot for the kind reply.  A very interesting amp indeed.  I will read the existing thread.  Kind regards,  gino


----------



## Schopenhauer

liu junyuan said:


> vlach said:
> 
> 
> > Tell you what; I don't think you should believe what I would have to say about it if I didn't own it.
> ...


 
 I can speak in favor of the Leck. The amp section is top notch. One of the best amps I've heard, bar-none. Perhaps a more neutral tonality than the H10. Certainly not as warm, but certainly not at all bright. It's able to drive anything I throw at it. Most impressively, it makes the HE-500 sing. It's easy to think you aren't missing much when you're listening to the Leck.


----------



## vlach

schopenhauer said:


> I can speak in favor of the Leck. The amp section is top notch. One of the best amps I've heard, bar-none. Perhaps a more neutral tonality than the H10. Certainly not as warm, but certainly not at all bright. It's able to drive anything I throw at it. Most impressively, it makes the HE-500 sing. It's easy to think you aren't missing much when you're listening to the Leck.




Thanks for confirming this. I've been on the fence regarding the purchase of the H10, wondering if I'm really going to gain anything over my UHA-6.
Another option would be to wait for the rumored new Leck...


----------



## Schopenhauer

vlach said:


> schopenhauer said:
> 
> 
> > I can speak in favor of the Leck. The amp section is top notch. One of the best amps I've heard, bar-none. Perhaps a more neutral tonality than the H10. Certainly not as warm, but certainly not at all bright. It's able to drive anything I throw at it. Most impressively, it makes the HE-500 sing. It's easy to think you aren't missing much when you're listening to the Leck.
> ...


 
 Although I didn't want to speak in favor of the Leck to the detriment of the H10. These are different amps. I think it would be easier to listen to the H10 for hours at a time than it would the Leck.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Would this also depend on which headphones you want to drive? I looked at the Leck prior to the H10 and decided I wanted an SS amp with more current for HE-500. I would love to try it though. It seems like it would be great with dynamics.

I think the H10 is worth an extended listen. Now that I have a new DAC, it sounds less warm/dark than before--even though I liked that sound too. H10 pairs wonderful with R2R--almost magical. Switching between amps confirms that it's the amp and not just the DAC that gives me this feeling.

I feel the same way as you do with the Leck, like I am not really missing anything when listening to it. 

As I said, I hope to hear the Leckerton at some point in future.


----------



## jaywillin

in case it hasn't already been posted ,pollychen has lowered their price
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-current-Discrete-Class-A-output-Stage-Headphone-Amplifier-/261520921654?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce3dc9436


----------



## Walderstorn

jaywillin said:


> in case it hasn't already been posted ,pollychen has lowered their price
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-current-Discrete-Class-A-output-Stage-Headphone-Amplifier-/261520921654?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce3dc9436


 
 You can thank me for that if u pls.


----------



## jaywillin

walderstorn said:


> You can thank me for that if u pls.


 
 many thanks !


----------



## Walderstorn

Eheh, now its to wait and dispair for mine to come, any1 ordered from Europe that may give me an estimate? It doesnt say anything on ebay.


----------



## xevman

About to pull the plug today where is the best place to purchase it from? So far the best price I found was on Aliexpress $452 AUD including postage.


----------



## DreamKing

walderstorn said:


> Yeap price went down because i emailed them yesterday since another seller was selling for that price so they did a price-match.
> 
> About customs @DreamKing you have no idea how berserk they are in my country, its got to be one of the worst countries in that regard, not only is it brutally high, they stop a ridiculously high number of packages if they come from outside EU, not only that its 23% vat + 10-30€ fee and even on top of that they have burocracy up the ying-yang if they decide to hold your package, but i guess i'll have to try it.


 
  
 Wow, very sorry to hear, Walderstorn. That might be the worst I've heard yet.


----------



## PWGuy

Bought mine today from Chen! I'm just getting into this "hobby", so wanted to start out with a solid amp for my HD600s that I've not yet even heard before ! Lol


----------



## stuartmc

Nice to see all you new guys jumping aboard the SS. Gustard.  To achieve full "swabbie" status, you just need to share your impressions with us as you go through the break in process and settle into the Gustardly Goodness. Tell us what your associated equipment is too, so we can all figure out where the best synergy lies.  Have fun 'mates and welcome aboard!


----------



## PWGuy

Haven't read the entire thread yet - what is the suggested break-in time in hours?


----------



## Walderstorn

dreamking said:


> Wow, very sorry to hear, Walderstorn. That might be the worst I've heard yet.


 
  
 Just to give a rough ideai have a package from massdrop thats in customs for 2 weeks already and its price is lower then the maximum "safe" item price wich is 36€, above that u get robbed, fortunately they costed 33 € but that doesnt make it come faster, im only tax+fee safe. Yes its that bad.
  
 @stuartmc i wont be a good example in that regard, my comparing gear is/was very low-end.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

walderstorn said:


> Just to give a rough ideai have a package from massdrop thats in customs for 2 weeks already and its price is lower then the maximum "safe" item price wich is 36€, above that u get robbed, fortunately they costed 33 € but that doesnt make it come faster, im only tax+fee safe. Yes its that bad.
> 
> @stuartmc
> i wont be a good example in that regard, my comparing gear is/was very low-end.




What country is it?


----------



## Walderstorn

Portugal


----------



## Liu Junyuan

walderstorn said:


> Portugal


 
 I see. Dealing with customs is no fun.


----------



## Walderstorn

Even worse when the packages comes from DHL and i talked with pollychen and he/her told me that EMS takes around 15 working days instead of dhl 5-10 so i guess i'll have to risk with DHL and cross my fingers. The custom invoice wont do any good here, so asked him to say its for repair/parts/spares, to help keep tax to a minimum, never tried it, so its as a good time as ever.


----------



## DreamKing

walderstorn said:


> Even worse when the packages comes from DHL and i talked with pollychen and he/her told me that EMS takes around 15 working days instead of dhl 5-10 so i guess i'll have to risk with DHL and cross my fingers. The custom invoice wont do any good here, so asked him to say its for repair/parts/spares, to help keep tax to a minimum, never tried it, so its as a good time as ever.


 
  
 Walderstorm, that's what I meant when I said dealers like Pollychen can help. In Canada for example, any item declared under CA$200 or as gift/sample has $0 custom fees. This is illegal for US manufacturers though but in China, for example, they're great to work with. Now, I don't know what the limits/regulations are for Portugal so _maybe_ it's similar.
  
 Mine is coming with DHL too, so I'll share my experience when the delivery is completed.


----------



## Walderstorn

I wish we had that kind of limit, here is only 36 euros lol thats like 40 bucks.


----------



## DreamKing

What about if it's a gift/sample?


----------



## Walderstorn

Means squat, zero, nada, they really go overboard here, they make u give them the bank - credit card statement, they found most invoices suspicious so they dont serve as proof anymore, even more from items from the US and China.


----------



## DreamKing

It truly is the worst I've heard then.
  
 Well, I wish you the best of luck regardless.


----------



## Schopenhauer

liu junyuan said:


> Would this also depend on which headphones you want to drive? I looked at the Leck prior to the H10 and decided I wanted an SS amp with more current for HE-500. I would love to try it though. It seems like it would be great with dynamics.
> 
> I think the H10 is worth an extended listen. Now that I have a new DAC, it sounds less warm/dark than before--even though I liked that sound too. H10 pairs wonderful with R2R--almost magical. Switching between amps confirms that it's the amp and not just the DAC that gives me this feeling.
> 
> ...


 
 I think so. I don't think the Leck would really correct for anything downstream. It probably wouldn't take the edge of a beyer headphone. I certainly wouldn't say the Leck makes things sound bright, but my LCD-2.2 definitely sounds smoother out of my EF-6. And I remember it being smoother out of the H10. But most of what I say will have to be taken with a grain of salt since I've been without the H10 for several months now. Always tempted to pick one back up since it's practically transportable - although I might think so only on account of the EF-6 weighing 24lbs.


----------



## vlach

liu junyuan said:


> I feel the same way as you do with the Leck, like I am not really missing anything when listening to it.
> 
> As I said, I hope to hear the Leckerton at some point in future.




Hi Liu,

Me again...and I'm not trying to be difficult but I'm really scratching my head on this one; 'when listening to the Leck/hope to hear the Leck' ?


----------



## Schopenhauer

vlach said:


> liu junyuan said:
> 
> 
> > I feel the same way as you do with the Leck, like I am not really missing anything when listening to it.
> ...


 
 I took it as "I feel the same way [with the H10] as you do with the Leck, like I am not really missing anything when listening to it." Which wouldn't conflict with the second part.


----------



## vlach

schopenhauer said:


> I took it as "I feel the same way [with the H10] as you do with the Leck, like I am not really missing anything when listening to it." Which wouldn't conflict with the second part.




Ah...ok...got it, thank you!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

vlach said:


> Hi Liu,
> 
> Me again...and I'm not trying to be difficult but I'm really scratching my head on this one; 'when listening to the Leck/hope to hear the Leck' ?




Yes, I mean that just as you feel like you are not missing anything when listening through your Leck, I am content when I am listening to my H10.


----------



## ginetto61

Sorry ... message deleted.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## Exacoustatowner

liu junyuan said:


> Yes, I mean that just as you feel like you are not missing anything when listening through your Leck, I am content when I am listening to my H10.



Hi Liu,
How do you compare the Lyr with the H10/since you listen to music with both?
Obviously the tubes make a big difference.
And I know you have Great taste in music!
Listening to Rachmaninov Piano Concerto 3 btw, not Mahlet


----------



## DreamKing

I think anyone listening at louder than moderate volumes (let's say ~115db PEAK SPL) with the HE-500, for example, wouldn't find the UHA-6S.MKII satisfactory compared to the H10. 
  
 And this is from calculations of the HE-500's amping needs and the specs Leckerton provides.
  
 It would be underpowered for the most I would need to drive the HE-500 with a lot of my records w/high dynamic range, if I had it and was debating between it and the H10.
  
 But it's truly portable in comparison so a better match with more efficient headphones, clearly not made for the same purposes. 
  
 If you listen at moderate volumes with 100db Peak SPL all the time though, it won't matter.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

You made me buy three Mahler albums today. 

  

 I like both. When I originally made comparisons, there was a problem with my connection to the Lyr in the back so that the H10 seemed to be clearly superior when I switched back and forth. The Lyr is quick, dynamic, punchy, and relatively more aggressive; with the right tubes (Russians) it just sizzles and scintillates with strings and vocals while conveying a pleasant holographic soundstage. 

  

 I have described the H10 on this thread already. In comparison, it may be even more detailed than the Lyr (but I made that conclusion with the bad connection to the Lyr), it has a larger stage, and it betokens a velvety smooth treble. Bass on both is equal, which is saying a lot, because both have great bass. The H10 is highly dynamic but not quite as punchy as the Lyr. With certain recordings, the H10 seems to have slightly more finesse, but this does depend on the headphone. HD 650s pair better with high voltage transformerless amps anyways, for instance. The H10 is "a tad" warmer than the Lyr, the latter of which has a quite solid state though holographic sound.

  

 I admit that I am "a relativist" on this matter. I like both the same for different purposes. If you can afford it, you might want to try the H10 as it is an incredible value. I know that most others on this thread have preferred the H10 to the Lyr.


----------



## Lohb

liu junyuan said:


> You made me buy three Mahler albums today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Holographic sound-stage on Theta ?


----------



## xevman

Do the gain switches stack? Like for example if I switch +6 and +12 at the same time do I get +18 gain? nvm worked it out with all switches off gain is 8db and can be adjusted from there


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lohb said:


> Holographic sound-stage on Theta ?




No. On the Lyr because of its input tubes.


----------



## BassDigger

dreamking said:


> I think anyone listening at louder than moderate volumes (let's say ~115db SPL) with the HE-500, for example, wouldn't find the UHA-6S.MKII satisfactory compared to the H10.
> 
> And this is from calculations of the HE-500's amping needs and the specs Leckerton provides.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, in any aspect. But, I would only consider figures and measurements, especially manufacturer supplied ones, as the roughest of guidelines when choosing and matching equipment; there're so many things that measurements just don't account for.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I think the business between the Leck and Gustard H10 is very clear. If you want a DESKTOP amp whose specs are on par with the venerable Vioelectric 200, meaning that it drives both low and high impedance headphones admirably, then you should consider the H10. If you want an amp that is both portable and one of the best sub-1K implemented SS amps for a variety of non-planar headphones, go for the Leck. H10 will beat the Leck with planars for most people's subjective impressions. But the Leck might be preferred for other transducers and needs. I am pretty much certain I will be picking up a Leck at some point.


----------



## Koolpep

xevman said:


> Do the gain switches stack? Like for example if I switch +6 and +12 at the same time do I get +18 gain? nvm worked it out with all switches off gain is 8db and can be adjusted from there


 

 So, you found it. No they don't stack. And yes you are correct - overall gain is 8dB
  
 So you can choose then the pre-gain by quarter steps. All switches off are standard 8dB then you can set one switch at a time to on to choose -12 (resulting in -4dB overall, -6 (+2dB), +6 (+14dB), +12 (+20 dB) they don't stack. So it's basically plus a quarter, plus two quarters and the same minus....according to the manual ....
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Everyone is probably aware of this, but as someone who has damaged his hearing (loud pipes on my Harleys)
 I can tell you that extended listening even at 100db is like playing russian roulette with aural nerve damage.
 115 db is just silly.  In about 10-15 min. the damage is done...and irreversable.  
 my .02,
 Hibuck....


----------



## LancerFIN

Customs in Portugal don't seem to be much different from Finland. 24% VAT on anything over 22€ of value. Items that are worth more than 150€ (shipping included in the worth) get 5% import fee. So that's 29% on top of the original price. You have to upload invoice or picture of the payment on the customs site before they release your package. So new H10 costs 410 euros here. New lake people G109P costs 440 euros.


----------



## BassDigger

hibuckhobby said:


> Everyone is probably aware of this, but as someone who has damaged his hearing (loud pipes on my Harleys)
> I can tell you that extended listening even at 100db is like playing russian roulette with aural nerve damage.
> 115 db is just silly.  In about 10-15 min. the damage is done...and irreversable.
> my .02,
> Hibuck....


 
  
 Eh? What'd you say?
  





  
 Sorry; I couldn't resist. But good point; lots of people around the world, right now, are doing permanent damage to their hearing, because they've got the volume too high, for too long.


----------



## lukeap69

I started listening to loud volumes also and I started to appreciate just the right amount as time goes on...


----------



## Schopenhauer

Personally, I don't know how people push it past the upper 80dBs. I could plug the HE-500 into my EF-6 at 115dB and I'm not going to like it. I don't think I'd like any headphone out of any amp when the SPL is 115dB.


----------



## DreamKing

bassdigger said:


> I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, in any aspect. But, I would only consider figures and measurements, especially manufacturer supplied ones, as the roughest of guidelines when choosing and matching equipment; there're so many things that measurements just don't account for.


 
  
 In the very specific context I outlined, reaching 115dB *PEAK SPL* of dynamic range, then it's accurate in that. Classical and genres with similar dynamic range can reach 115dB (or +30dB of your normal volume) if you listen at 85dB (maximum safe hearing average SPL for prolonged sessions) for its most highest peaks. The amp wouldn't be powerful enough for that. The measurements provided by Leckerton are enough to tell this.
  
 It's a specific context, so I'm not talking about for the case of the average listener that doesn't listen to anything with dynamic range like this.
  

 I had to edit the earlier post as I wasn't clear enough that I was talking about *PEAK SPL only* and not average SPL. Again, if anyone was wondering, I'm just talking about the most extreme dynamic range which a lot of my source recording have. The amp has to be able to this in my case. *This is not for blasting your ears at 115dB nonstop*. Please, don't blast your ears at 115dB. I do not recommend this. If your pain isn't enough of a deterrent, you will be deaf in a record time. 
  
 That amp can reach ~100dB Peak SPL which is a moderate volume for peaks. I would need headroom for peaks with my amp so this wouldn't be sufficient enough.


----------



## auvgeek

Just wanted to jump in quickly to mention that you really need to be careful of the volume at meets. I went to my first local meet about a month ago, and I've had tinnitus ever since. The ambient noise was so loud, it didn't even seem like I cranked the volume particularly high, but apparently I overdid it. I'm relatively young, and I've always been extremely careful of my hearing (low volume for regular listening, earplugs at concerts, etc), so I'm pretty bummed. Just thought I'd pass it along since we're discussing volume levels, and Gustard's pricing allows it to be some people's first "nice" setup--the kind you might want to take to a meet...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lancerfin said:


> Customs in Portugal don't seem to be much different from Finland. 24% VAT on anything over 22€ of value. Items that are worth more than 150€ (shipping included in the worth) get 5% import fee. So that's 29% on top of the original price. You have to upload invoice or picture of the payment on the customs site before they release your package. So new H10 costs 410 euros here. New lake people G109P costs 440 euros.




So how much is the V200 for you?


----------



## LancerFIN

liu junyuan said:


> So how much is the V200 for you?


 

 790€ shipped.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello guys, hoping not to be too 'unfaithful' because I'm sure the H10 can be a solid amp - but after reading several awe-struck reviews of the Cavalli Liquid Carbon amp (one from a fellow head-fi'er that I have met more personally than once), I'm thinking that this should be a big step up from the Gustard H10 amp; both being solid state with similar output levels; and the Liquid carbon being said to have a neutral, smooth musical sound with character. So I'm wondering if it's worth the extra $200 - has anybody else heard both the H10 and Cavalli Liquid Carbon; or found a review comparing them both? Thanks!


----------



## pippen99

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, hoping not to be too 'unfaithful' because I'm sure the H10 can be a solid amp - but after reading several awe-struck reviews of the Cavalli Liquid Carbon amp (one from a fellow head-fi'er that I have met more personally than once), I'm thinking that this should be a big step up from the Gustard H10 amp; both being solid state with similar output levels; and the Liquid carbon being said to have a neutral, smooth musical sound with character. So I'm wondering if it's worth the extra $200 - has anybody else heard both the H10 and Cavalli Liquid Carbon; or found a review comparing them both? Thanks!


 

 I have had the H10 since mid-march.  It took a long time to burn in.  For me the sound was bad to mediocre for nearly 70 hours.  I'm a Classic Rock fan and soon found out that several of my favorite tracks are just crappily recorded.  Also this is my first hi-fi system and had little to compare against.  Now after 200+ hours I appreciate this amp much more especially with better material.  I find it to be very good with acoustic instrument(that might mean detailed I guess) and vocals. I still find it a little bass light except on tracks with real strong bass.
  
 I bought the LC on faith without hearing it.  I did get to demo it at the Nashville meet in April.  Now remembering that sourcing it was an AK240(I think) through an Auralic Vega, my Lcd-2f had much cleaner bass lines, more what I would call presence and slightly better highs.  When the LC comes in it will most likely be my main amp.  The H10 will get hooked up to my desk computer or sold.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello @pippen99 , so according to your initial impressions anyway, it seems you like the Cavalli Liquid Carbon better than the Gustard H10 because of much cleaner bass lines, presence and slightly better highs; so there is something wrong with this bass output of the H10? I'm sure we would really like to hear a detailed comparison from you on these 2 amps once you get your newer one (after you have time with it, burn-in, etc. of course).
  
 Warning though, the LC amp may be only a limited run production.


----------



## DreamKing

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, hoping not to be too 'unfaithful' because I'm sure the H10 can be a solid amp - but after reading several awe-struck reviews of the Cavalli Liquid Carbon amp (one from a fellow head-fi'er that I have met more personally than once), I'm thinking that this should be a big step up from the Gustard H10 amp; both being solid state with similar output levels; and the Liquid carbon being said to have a neutral, smooth musical sound with character. So I'm wondering if it's worth the extra $200 - has anybody else heard both the H10 and Cavalli Liquid Carbon; or found a review comparing them both? Thanks!


 
  
 Proceed with caution with anything that is sponsored here. The hype surrounding a more affordable Cavalli amp speaks for itself. The EL-8 announcement/hype was the same thing. Basically, anything more affordable from a sponsor will have huge attraction here from just the announcement and people will buy from brand name alone before it is even released and reviewed with relevant comparisons at the price point.
  
 I wouldn't call it a big step up until you compare them yourself or are convinced from someone else's direct comparison.  
  
 And that would most likely only come about in your preferred sound signature because the output level is almost twice as large on the H10.


----------



## auvgeek

1) Just because he preferred the bass of the LC doesn't mean there's something "wrong" with the bass of the H10. 

2) It doesn't seem fair to compare the LC at $600 to the H10 at $300 (massdrop)-$350 (eBay). Seems like the not-yet-released balanced H20 is a better competitor to the LC. My guess is they'll be priced similarly. (Of course, if you care about size, the LC has a distinct advantage there.)


----------



## pippen99

A lot of people on this thread rave about the bass from the H10 but I don't hear it.  I find the setup I run(Gustard H10+X12+Lcd-2f) to be very mid-centric.  If the track as exceptional bass then I hear it throughout.  If the track has average lows the middle seems to submerge or cover over the low end.  Since this is my first system I do not have the experience to attribute this to a particular unit in my system.  I can only try to explain with my limited audio vocabulary what I hear. Looking forward to the LC delivery.


----------



## DreamKing

auvgeek said:


> 1) Just because he preferred the bass of the LC doesn't mean there's something "wrong" with the bass of the H10.
> 
> 2) It doesn't seem fair to compare the LC at $600 to the H10 at $300 (massdrop)-$350 (eBay). Seems like the not-yet-released balanced H20 is a better competitor to the LC. My guess is they'll be priced similarly. (Of course, if you care about size, the LC has a distinct advantage there.)


 
  
 Let's not forget that the H10 is a clone of a ~$1K amp that some prefer in sound to the Violectric's...
  
 I don't see how they would price anything similarly to the LC if they heavily undercut a $1K design.
  
 The main reason the LC isn't priced to compare with the H10 is also because it is transportable.


----------



## bavinck

I would say the bass on the H10 is very faithful to the recording. Most classic rock does not have a very strong bass presence, so it very well could be the type of music you like to listen to that is influencing the bass response.


----------



## auvgeek

dreamking said:


> Let's not forget that the H10 is a clone of a ~$1K amp that some prefer in sound to the Violectric's...
> 
> I don't see how they would price anything similarly to the LC if they heavily undercut a $1K design.
> 
> The main reason the LC isn't priced to compare with the H10 is also because it isn't transportable.


 Fair point about the cost of a clone being cheaper than the R&D associated with a new product. 

I don't understand your comment about transportable, though. You're saying the LC is transportable, so it's priced higher?


----------



## DreamKing

auvgeek said:


> Fair point about the cost of a clone being cheaper than the R&D associated with a new product.
> 
> I don't understand your comment about transportable, though. You're saying the LC is transportable, so it's priced higher?


 
  
 For what they pack into the transportable lightweight build, hell yes. Notably: Balanced output, 1.5W into 50 ohms.
  
 Why would it price similarly to a clone of another design that is heavier? Wouldn't make sense.
  
 It's safe to assume the H10 wasn't in Cavalli's crosshair.0


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello again @pippen99 about your comparison of the H10 and Liquid Carbon amps; I just wanted to confirm: were you using the same exact pair of headphones on both amps, and using the same song and a similar music player? Sometimes different pairs of the same headphone can have sound variance and different songs always have different mastering, and different transports (players) can play the same tune differently.
  
 Also in regards to fixing your problem with the bass of your H10; have you tried all the various gain settings on the back of the H10 to see if this could fix it?


----------



## auvgeek

dreamking said:


> For what they pack into the transportable lightweight build, hell yes. Notably: Balanced output, 1.5W into 50 ohms.
> 
> Why would it price similarly to a clone of another design that is heavier? Wouldn't make sense.
> 
> It's safe to assume the H10 wasn't in Cavalli's crosshair.



I fully agree with your last statement, and I'm not trying to take away from the LC at all. I never said it was overpriced, over hyped, etc. I've never heard it, so I'm not making any assessments other than I think it's a bit odd to compare a $300 desktop, SE amp to a $600 transportable, balanced amp. Even if the H10 is a clone of a $1k amp, the reality is that it's widely available new for $300-$350, unlike the LC.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> A lot of people on this thread rave about the bass from the H10 but I don't hear it.  I find the setup I run(Gustard H10+X12+Lcd-2f) to be very mid-centric.  If the track as exceptional bass then I hear it throughout.  If the track has average lows the middle seems to submerge or cover over the low end.  Since this is my first system I do not have the experience to attribute this to a particular unit in my system.  I can only try to explain with my limited audio vocabulary what I hear. Looking forward to the LC delivery.




You have not seem to be satisfied with the H10 since you got it. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I am sure the LC will be an interesting listen. 

The amp is not going to emphasize the bass, though. Instead of mid-centric, so you want bass-centric? 

I wish I could hear the LCD-2F on the H10 to know. LCD-2's are inherently mid-centric anyways. But my HE-500 is fairly flat FR. 

Are you going to buy a balanced cable for the LC?


----------



## DreamKing

auvgeek said:


> I fully agree with your last statement, and I'm not trying to take away from the LC at all. I never said it was overpriced, over hyped, etc. I've never heard it, so I'm not making any assessments other than I think it's a bit odd to compare a $300 desktop, SE amp to a $600 transportable, balanced amp. Even if the H10 is a clone of a $1k amp, the reality is that it's widely available new for $300-$350, unlike the LC.


 
  
 ^Perfectly understandable, I agree and that was my main point. They don't have the same purpose.


----------



## pippen99

No. The LC was at the Nashville Meet.  I was using the LCD-2f for comparisons of everything that day.  I could not use the same music with the LC.  The Schiit stack(Mjolnir+Gungnir) was also superior to my Gustard stack and I did compare quite a few of the same songs with it.  I liked The LC best but it was using a superior dac and source.  Are you totally confused now?  I'm getting there.


----------



## pippen99

liu junyuan said:


> You have not seem to be satisfied with the H10 since you got it. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I am sure the LC will be an interesting listen.
> 
> The amp is not going to emphasize the bass, though. Instead of mid-centric, so you want bass-centric?
> 
> ...


 

 I'm not sure I'm exactly disappointed.  I think going from a Sharp mini-system and Ultrasone HFI-2400 I expected audio gold and I got silver or at best gold-plate.  I naively expected everything to sound better and now I know better.
  
 I ordered a Norne Draug v2 at the Nashville meet.  Nice people and a nice show discount!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> I'm not sure I'm exactly disappointed.  I think going from a Sharp mini-system and Ultrasone HFI-2400 I expected audio gold and I got silver or at best gold-plate.  I naively expected everything to sound better and now I know better.
> 
> I ordered a Norne Draug v2 at the Nashville meet.  Nice people and a nice show discount!




You can sell it and buy another amp while you wait for the LC. The Leck might be a nice option, or perhaps a used Lyr.


----------



## DecentLevi

pippen99 said:


> No. The LC was at the Nashville Meet.  I was using the LCD-2f for comparisons of everything that day.  I could not use the same music with the LC.  The Schiit stack(Mjolnir+Gungnir) was also superior to my Gustard stack and I did compare quite a few of the same songs with it.  I liked The LC best but it was using a superior dac and source.  Are you totally confused now?  I'm getting there.


 
 So in my interpretation, it looks like with an indirect comparison you liked the Liquid Carbon better; but it could have been either due to the LC sound signature being more to your liking or that the superiour DAC and transport is what made it sound better than the H10.
  
 Anyway at least I'll be able to try at least one of those at a San Francisco meet in July. Cavalli and LH Labs (Geek Out makers), etc. will be there, along with member's rigs.


----------



## olek

decentlevi said:


> Also in regards to fixing your problem with the bass of your H10; have you tried all the various gain settings on the back of the H10 to see if this could fix it?


 
  
 I tested how gain switches influence frequency response by hanging headphones on a (reasonably good) microphone, observing signal strength in AudioXplorer (wonderful app for Mac), and playing test tones at 100/250/440/1k/10kHz. No noticeable difference was noticed when changing gain (unlike when switching from one amp to the other - there was a difference for those cases, and it confirmed what I was hearing).
  
 Subjectively, when playing music, sound was a bit more aggressive in high gain settings, it may have something to do with how transients/attack is handled, or dynamics, but overall frequency response was NOT changing according to my pseudo-scientific test.


----------



## olek

auvgeek said:


> Just wanted to jump in quickly to mention that you really need to be careful of the volume at meets. I went to my first local meet about a month ago, and I've had tinnitus ever since. The ambient noise was so loud, it didn't even seem like I cranked the volume particularly high, but apparently I overdid it. I'm relatively young, and I've always been extremely careful of my hearing (low volume for regular listening, earplugs at concerts, etc), so I'm pretty bummed. Just thought I'd pass it along since we're discussing volume levels, and Gustard's pricing allows it to be some people's first "nice" setup--the kind you might want to take to a meet...


 
  
 You may be cursed with a similar condition to what I am suffering from. According to the doctor, there are those people (1% of population?) that have hearing so sensitive that it gets damaged very quickly in environment that is still fine for others. I lost most of hearing on my right ear after shooting 7 bullets from a 'riffle' during silly 'defence' training I was forced to undertake in my 20s (of course, we were supplied no hearing protection, real man do not need that).
  
 And a practical advice to ANYBODY: if you think you were subjected to a loud enough noise to cause you problems (either explosive in nature, or semi-constant, like listening to music very loudly, like during concert, or meet), run to you nearby pharmacy, buy some magnesium supplement (over the counter, and cheap), and take it for couple days. It was shown to prevent irreversible hearing loss, even if taken AFTER the exposure. There were some research done on military personnel, where they were involved in training that required a lot of shooting many weeks in a row, and invariably control group lost about 20% of their hearing by the end of the test, but 'magnesium'-doped group had no measurable hearing loss, even if supplement was taken some time after the exposure, and even if taking it in small quantities.
  
 I wish somebody told me this 20 years ago.
  
 Sorry for non-H10-related-OT, but I think this is more important to quality of your music than any amp money can buy.


----------



## Walderstorn

lancerfin said:


> Customs in Portugal don't seem to be much different from Finland. 24% VAT on anything over 22€ of value. Items that are worth more than 150€ (shipping included in the worth) get 5% import fee. So that's 29% on top of the original price. You have to upload invoice or picture of the payment on the customs site before they release your package. So new H10 costs 410 euros here. New lake people G109P costs 440 euros.


 
  
 Yeah that seems about right, my costs will probably be around 392, but thats up to them.
  
 Edit - that actually may be "new" contender for the worse EU country for non-EU imports.


----------



## auvgeek

olek said:


> You may be cursed with a similar condition to what I am suffering from. According to the doctor, there are those people (1% of population?) that have hearing so sensitive that it gets damaged very quickly in environment that is still fine for others. I lost most of hearing on my right ear after shooting 7 bullets from a 'riffle' during silly 'defence' training I was forced to undertake in my 20s (of course, we were supplied no hearing protection, real man do not need that).
> 
> And a practical advice to ANYBODY: if you think you were subjected to a loud enough noise to cause you problems (either explosive in nature, or semi-constant, like listening to music very loudly, like during concert, or meet), run to you nearby pharmacy, buy some magnesium supplement (over the counter, and cheap), and take it for couple days. It was shown to prevent irreversible hearing loss, even if taken AFTER the exposure. There were some research done on military personnel, where they were involved in training that required a lot of shooting many weeks in a row, and invariably control group lost about 20% of their hearing by the end of the test, but 'magnesium'-doped group had no measurable hearing loss, even if supplement was taken some time after the exposure, and even if taking it in small quantities.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks much for the magnesium tip. I suspect it's too late for me, but I'll try some nonetheless. I've also read that other factors (such as stress) can also have an adverse affect on tinnitus and I'm under quite a bit of stress from school right now, so I'm hopeful that's partly to blame.


----------



## BassDigger

bassdigger said:


> me
> 
> *I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion*, in any aspect. But, I would only consider figures and measurements, especially manufacturer supplied ones, as the roughest of guidelines when choosing and matching equipment; there're so many things that measurements just don't account for.


 
  
  
 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DreamKing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> In the very specific context I outlined, reaching 115dB *PEAK SPL* of dynamic range, then it's accurate in that. Classical and genres with similar dynamic range can reach 115dB (or +30dB of your normal volume) if you listen at 85dB (maximum safe hearing average SPL for prolonged sessions) for its most highest peaks. The amp wouldn't be powerful enough for that. The measurements provided by Leckerton are enough to tell this.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll reiterate that I was NOT disagreeing with your conclusion. I just wanted to advise caution with your apparent methodology for reaching that conclusion, and others in previous posts. Purely using quoted, or confirmed, figures and mathematics is perhaps oversimplifying the relationship between amp and transducer; there are too many caveats and variables, both understood and not understood by physics.
 But I applaud your effort to make a definitive judgement based on the available facts; these basic indicators are overlooked, misunderstood and mis-interpreted by too many, including myself.


----------



## DreamKing

^Understood, but when you don't have access to the amp without buying it, which is most cases for me, there is no way to know all of the variables and that's where interpreting specs and informed opinion from others come in handy. Being able to reach ~115dB peak SPL is a minimum for me and one of the main reasons I was interested in the H10. 
  
 But I agree, this is only the start. The glowing reviews for its matchability with the HE-560 and price took the cake.
  
 Now I have to listen to it...


----------



## Exacoustatowner

liu junyuan said:


> You made me buy three Mahler albums today.
> 
> I like both. When I originally made comparisons, there was a problem with my connection to the Lyr in the back so that the H10 seemed to be clearly superior when I switched back and forth. The Lyr is quick, dynamic, punchy, and relatively more aggressive; with the right tubes (Russians) it just sizzles and scintillates with strings and vocals while conveying a pleasant holographic soundstage.
> 
> ...



Hah hah! I get a kickback from the ghost of Gustav for every anti Mahler person I convert! 
Did you get 1,3, and 8? I am most fond of Michael Tilson Thomas' Mahler cycle. His 8th won a ton of awards including Best Classical Recording for that year. I'm listening to the SACD version.
The Gustard sounds intriguing!
Right now I'm on the list for the next batch of Ragnaroks-so that may be my end point SS amp.


----------



## chongky

Ebay seller vintage_audio_lab just shipped my H10, 3 days after I pulled the trigger. Shipping carrier is Chunghwa Post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The seller is based in Taiwan.


----------



## Lohb

chongky said:


> Ebay seller vintage_audio_lab just shipped my H10, 3 days after I pulled the trigger. Shipping carrier is Chunghwa Post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 $$$$ ?


----------



## chongky

$350, during a time Pollychen sold the H10 for ~ $400. (Pollychen's price has reverted to ~$350 thanks to Walderstorn.)


----------



## floydfan33

chongky said:


> Ebay seller vintage_audio_lab just shipped my H10, 3 days after I pulled the trigger. Shipping carrier is Chunghwa Post.   The seller is based in Taiwan.




I ordered from the same seller on April 22. Still waiting in Canada.


----------



## chongky

floydfan33 said:


> I ordered from the same seller on April 22. Still waiting in Canada.


 
 So has he shipped? I'm in Asia btw, I reckon I'll get my H10 pretty soon.


----------



## Walderstorn

Lucky  i recon i will get mine not earlier than the end of the month.
  
 Edit - because of customs burocracy.


----------



## bavinck

floydfan33 said:


> I ordered from the same seller on April 22. Still waiting in Canada.


 
 Took them about a month to get mine to be in Alberta. I ordered an x12 from the same seller 3 weeks ago, will see. Shipping is long, but the price and lack of customs fees makes the wait worth it.


----------



## floydfan33

bavinck said:


> Took them about a month to get mine to be in Alberta. I ordered an x12 from the same seller 3 weeks ago, will see. Shipping is long, but the price and lack of customs fees makes the wait worth it.




Thanks for the info. Did the tracking ever work for your order? Mine doesn't show up on their link or Canada Post.


----------



## stuartmc

I would much rather spend a few dollars more and get faster, reliable shipping. Pollychen has always used DHL for shipping and each one of my three Gustard components arrived in Upstate NY (near Canada) in less than a week.  The record was three days!


----------



## DreamKing

My order from Pollychen shipped Sunday night (Monday in China) but DHL tracking still doesn't show any information. Don't know if this is normal.


----------



## Walderstorn

floydfan33 said:


> Thanks for the info. Did the tracking ever work for your order? Mine doesn't show up on their link or Canada Post.


 
 Mine doesnt work either, i was worried that he may used the slower company but in the china EMS tracking service says it needs 13 digits.


stuartmc said:


> I would much rather spend a few dollars more and get faster, reliable shipping. Pollychen has always used DHL for shipping and each one of my three Gustard components arrived in Upstate NY (near Canada) in less than a week.  The record was three days!


 
 I did ask since he said EMS would take 15-25 working days.


----------



## stuartmc

dreamking said:


> My order from Pollychen shipped Sunday night (Monday in China) but DHL tracking still doesn't show any information. Don't know if this is normal.


 
 If he gave you the tracking number, that only means it was generated by his account. It doesn't mean that it was placed in DHL's hands yet.  Nevertheless, it does take a day or so before it shows up on DHL's tracking page, even after it is delivered to them.  I would send Pollychen a message and ask if it has been delivered to DHL because it is not showing up.


----------



## bavinck

floydfan33 said:


> Thanks for the info. Did the tracking ever work for your order? Mine doesn't show up on their link or Canada Post.


 
 For my h10 they gave me a tracking that did not work. I contacted them after 3 weeks and he gave me a new tracking that did work. This time with the X12 the tracking is not working again, and he said it will come soon and their tracking does not work well with ebay tracking. We will see....


----------



## Walderstorn

bavinck said:


> For my h10 they gave me a tracking that did not work. I contacted them after 3 weeks and he gave me a new tracking that did work. This time with the X12 the tracking is not working again, and he said it will come soon and their tracking does not work well with ebay tracking. We will see....


 
 Was there any difference in the digits between the 1st code (that did not work) and the 2nd one? I mean any differnce in the number of digits and did the 2nd one have letters?


----------



## daltonlanny

Just ordered another Gustard H10 a couple of days ago.
Going to see how good it matches up with the beta Hifiman HE1000.
Couldn't resist...especially considering how good the Gustard drives the HE-500 and HE-560..


----------



## DreamKing

stuartmc said:


> If he gave you the tracking number, that only means it was generated by his account. It doesn't mean that it was placed in DHL's hands yet.  Nevertheless, it does take a day or so before it shows up on DHL's tracking page, even after it is delivered to them.  I would send Pollychen a message and ask if it has been delivered to DHL because it is not showing up.


 
  
 Since they just opened business hours I sent him an email. This is weird though, 3 complete business days later after it was shipped and no info. I got some other thing that was shipped from China but with China Post this time and that doesn't show any information from the post's tracking service either.


----------



## pearljam50000

Is the H10 good with HD800? are there any problems with this amp so far?
 Thanks.


----------



## DreamKing

All I can say is that it has more juice than the HD800 can handle. 
  
 Someone else can give details on how the pairing sounds though.


----------



## BassDigger

pearljam50000 said:


> Is the H10 good with HD800? are there any problems with this amp so far?
> Thanks.


 
  
 Your first question: don't be lazy; search the thread/forum; people have already discussed this; search, read and then ask questions...,please. 
  
 Your second question: again, people have already discussed problems. But i guess you'd have to know what problem to search for. I recall some having issues with the volume control action. Also, the phone connection is recessed, which can cause issues for 'fat' jacks.
 That's a start for you.


----------



## Schopenhauer

bassdigger said:


> pearljam50000 said:
> 
> 
> > Is the H10 good with HD800? are there any problems with this amp so far?
> ...



Yeah, I had an ALO Green Line cable that wouldn't fit the jack. Also, yeah, the "search this thread" feature is key.


----------



## pearljam50000

Searched, didn't get a clear answer, some say it's good, some say not so good, so was looking for more opinions.


----------



## Koolpep

pearljam50000 said:


> Searched, didn't get a clear answer, some say it's good, some say not so good, so was looking for more opinions.




We have a meet tomorrow- H10 and HD800 will be there as well as other great amps, will do a comparison and report back.

Cheers,
K


----------



## pearljam50000

Thanks ^_^


----------



## FlySweep

pearljam50000 said:


> Is the H10 good with HD800? are there any problems with this amp so far?


 
  
 I feel an important prerequisite to getting an effective answer to this type of question.. as far as the HD800 is concerned.. is:  what is it that you like about the HD800's sound .. and what would you like to improve/preserve/change/diminish/etc.?  Being that the HD800 is very revealing of upstream gear (and it does have *some* inherent character of it's own), it takes on the nature of what it's fed.. more decisively than any other headphone out there, IMO.  So, do you want to preserve the HD800's resolution?  Do you want to roll off the treble a bit?  Do you want to goose up the mids?  Etc. etc.  When establish what you prioritize of the HD800's abilities (and include a budget), I find you'll get more effective solutions for upstream pairings.


----------



## Arnotts

flysweep said:


> I feel an important prerequisite to getting an effective answer to this type of question.. as far as the HD800 is concerned.. is:  what is it that you like about the HD800's sound .. and what would you like to improve/preserve/change/diminish/etc.?  Being that the HD800 is very revealing of upstream gear (and it does have *some* inherent character of it's own), it takes on the nature of what it's fed.. more decisively than any other headphone out there, IMO.  So, do you want to preserve the HD800's resolution?  Do you want to roll off the treble a bit?  Do you want to goose up the mids?  Etc. etc.  When establish what you prioritize of the HD800's abilities (and include a budget), I find you'll get more effective solutions for upstream pairings.


 
 Good, logical post.
  
 I think that the HD800's work well with the Gustard gear, but it's a smoother sound. The treble and imaging are very good, but it's not quite as detailed or quite as well separated as other combos that play to the HD800's strengths (namely details, soundstage and imaging). Note that the only other gear I've listened to the HD800's properly on has been the Matrix M-Stage combo, which is said to be very synergistic with the Senn's.
  
 The Gustard gear brings the HD800's a little bit closer to the Audeze type of sound, which kind of limits its strengths imo. Having said that, there are a lot of people that DO like the kind of sound that the V200/H10 have with the HD800's over other amps. I also appreciate it, I just prefer the LCD-2's and X's from the Gustard's. Unfortunately the only way to really know where you stand is to listen to all of the equipment yourself.


----------



## FlySweep

arnotts said:


> Good, logical post.
> 
> I think that the HD800's work well with the Gustard gear, but it's a smoother sound. The treble and imaging are very good, but it's not quite as detailed or quite as well separated as other combos that play to the HD800's strengths (namely details, soundstage and imaging). Note that the only other gear I've listened to the HD800's properly on has been the Matrix M-Stage combo, which is said to be very synergistic with the Senn's.
> 
> The Gustard gear brings the HD800's a little bit closer to the Audeze type of sound, which kind of limits its strengths imo. Having said that, there are a lot of people that DO like the kind of sound that the V200/H10 have with the HD800's over other amps. I also appreciate it, I just prefer the LCD-2's and X's from the Gustard's. Unfortunately the only way to really know where you stand is to listen to all of the equipment yourself.


 
  
 That right there is a great answer to @pearljam50000's question.. good post, Arnotts.  Now, he's got an idea of what direction his HD800 many go with the H10 in tow (outside of what his DAC does).


----------



## DreamKing

This is why I'm interested in what the sound is gonna be like with my HE-560. From what I can tell, it's looking to be a good pairing but if I bring my dac into the equation (lean tonality, treble glare, holographic soundstage, great micro detail presence, imaging is picture accurate) and the H10's sound, I have absolutely no idea what that's gonna sound like after reading what other people thought with different dacs.
  
 It's gonna be even more interesting with my current amp that I'm gonna use as a preamp as it brought its own neutral/slightly warm tonality to the mids and made the bass much stronger and tight. So I could mix some water with the whiskey if it gets too much out of hand for me. I first started doing this with my E12 that I use every now and then and was surprised at how much it works.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

The greatest problems with reviews and forums is that they use their ears and not yours.  I like bass weight and texture, some like a rather
 lean, taut signature.  I'm very sensitive to a somewhat dry, analytical sound and others call that neutral.  Cans that feel like they are inserting
 ice picks into my ears are just what others seems to want.  Point being, it's really hard to predict what someone else will like.  Even after a
 couple hundred hours, I feel like my H10 changes day to day.  It sounds great (to me on good recordings) with my HE500's.  60's rock can
 be pretty rough if I don't watch volume levels.
 Hibuck....


----------



## fccn75

DreamKing and daltonlanny, have you all received your amp yet from Pollychen?  Kind of weary of this tracking number issues some of you experience where seller gives tracking number but does not show up nor work.  So still recommend Pollychen?


----------



## PWGuy

I'm having the same issue - I have a supposed DHL tracking number but it isn't working - I just this morning sent pollychen an email about it.


----------



## Walderstorn

I sent a question about the tracking #, also asking if i could be given a tracking number that actually worked, that was 2 days ago, he repplied this yesterday:
  
"I will check it,you can take it easy.thnks"
  
Since then i sent another email yesterday, still no reply.


----------



## pearljam50000

So this Pollychen seller, is not reliable?


----------



## Walderstorn

Many say he was reliable about sending the gustard, but not about the tracking.


----------



## pippen99

walderstorn said:


> Many say he was reliable about sending the gustard, but not about the tracking.


 

 I never received a tracking number but was not expecting one per posts way early in the thread.  If you don't hit a holiday as I did(Chinese New Year) shipping to US will be approx. 10 days.


----------



## Walderstorn

Im in Europe he promissed up to 10 working days, so i have until the 18 at least  so before that i cant really say anything (except not getting a tracking # )


----------



## daltonlanny

fccn75 said:


> DreamKing and daltonlanny, have you all received your amp yet from Pollychen?  Kind of weary of this tracking number issues some of you experience where seller gives tracking number but does not show up nor work.  So still recommend Pollychen?




I ordered my latest one from Vintage Audio Lab, not pollychen.
Still haven't received it. It was shipped at the first of the week.


----------



## DreamKing

fccn75 said:


> DreamKing and daltonlanny, have you all received your amp yet from Pollychen?  Kind of weary of this tracking number issues some of you experience where seller gives tracking number but does not show up nor work.  So still recommend Pollychen?


 
  
 My tracking number does not work. I talked to Pollychen and he said he would check. But it's still not late or anything yet and I did hear that this kind of stuff does happen. I ordered some other thing from a different seller in China again last week and the tracking number with China Post doesn't work.
  
 H10:
Estimated delivery *Tue, May 12 - Thu, Jun 04*
  
  
 I don't know how the hell the shipping estimate went all the way up to June 4th as the latest because it was 12-19 of May originally but maybe something is going on with cargos in China. I don't know, I tried to search if there were any delays in shipping in stuff but couldn't find anything. Hopefully I get it next week.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Concerning the tracking numbers:

This may or may not be why your numbers are not working. On the Audio-GD Dac-19 thread people had a similar issue, to which Kingwa responded that he is on the mainland and that DHL is *a Hong Kong based company* , which thus means something in customs on mainland is holding things up. 

If I am not mistaken, Pollychen is also based in Shenzhen like Kingwa, and even though Shenzhen is within sight of Hong Kong (just north of it), they operate under separate jurisdictions. 

I suspect that customs is slowed down at the moment, unfortunately. I do know that once DHL "gets a hold" of your amp, you may expect a swift and secure delivery with tracking. 

Hopefully this sorts out for you all soon. 

Finally, I wonder if accompanying this sudden price drop, there is an even larger influx of orders worldwide that would further paralyze the customs process as it is true the majority of orderers will not be posting here about it.


----------



## Walderstorn

Good to know, but either way i dont want to have my amp take longer then expect, if they are having troubles with parcel transportation that its not my problem, im already risking to pay high import taxes so at least i want it as soon as possible.
  
 If it does delay i will want a refund and a cancelation and will go after another equipment, that i can get within the EU.


----------



## DreamKing

Thanks for that, makes a lot of sense. It must be something more than just H10 sales though. I've never had this happen.


----------



## Walderstorn

@DreamKing at least you have a date, i dont  when did u exactly buy the h10?


----------



## DreamKing

Ordered on the 30th, shipped on the 4th. This is in China's time, dates were a day earlier for my timezone.


----------



## Walderstorn

Hmmm and u know if he sent via dhl or ems?


----------



## DreamKing

DHL


----------



## Walderstorn

Thanks, let's see how long it will take then. Ofc we are in different continents so it will be hard to predict anything.


----------



## stuartmc

My EMS express is a little slower than normal on a Tanly USB interface. There was a holiday in China last weekend and their shipping gets backed up very quickly whenever there is a holiday. Seriously, their pipeline is so close to capacity that it takes very little to jam things up for days.


----------



## normanl

The first EMS tracking # provided by Vintage Audio Lab did not work for three days, then I emailed him and he said he'd check it with EMS. He provided me a new EMS tracking # the following day and I received the G10 three days later.  He responded to all my emails mostly within 20 to 30 mins. By the way, he'll beat (instead of matching) any ebay store price.


----------



## DreamKing

^Does that mean it wasn't actually shipped until he checked with EMS?


----------



## normanl

dreamking said:


> ^Does that mean it wasn't actually shipped until he checked with EMS?


 
 I don't not know for sure for I did not ask. However, I was surprised that I received after 3 days. Anyway, I had a very pleasant experience with the customer service of Vintage Audio Lab.


----------



## DreamKing

What country are you in>?


----------



## bavinck

I agree, vintage audio lab customer service very good.


----------



## xevman

Can anyone give me some insight on what gain to use with certain headphones? Right now I have Denon AH-D2000s and Sennheiser HD600s so i assume leaving the gain switches on their default setting (8db) should suffice, or should i lower it for the denons? Also with planars such as he-560 lcd-2 etc it would be wise to raise the gain to +14db right?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I like + 6 for my planars and dynamics.


----------



## normanl

dreamking said:


> What country are you in>?


 
 USA


----------



## DreamKing

normanl said:


> USA


 
  
 It was shipped before then the 3 days then or that's a world record. I'm gonna assume my situation is gonna end up like yours as it did say it shipped on sunday/monday in China and the earliest delivery date is on the coming Monday, so I'll relax for the week and hope it gets here very soon...


----------



## normanl

dreamking said:


> It was shipped before then the 3 days then or that's a world record. I'm gonna assume my situation is gonna end up like yours as it did say it shipped on sunday/monday in China and the earliest delivery date is on the coming Monday, so I'll relax for the week and hope it gets here very soon...


 
 My H10 was shipped from Taiwan (not China) on Apr.22 and arrived at my doorstep on Apr.25. Hope that you'll have the same luck.


----------



## DreamKing

normanl said:


> My H10 was shipped from Taiwan (not China) on Apr.22 and arrived at my doorstep on Apr.25. Hope that you'll have the same luck.


 
  
 ...I'm well past having that kind of luck. I'm assuming your expected delivery was later than the 25th?


----------



## BassDigger

Just a little 'heads up' for those ordering stuff sent from the Chinese mainland (not Hong Kong or Taiwan).
  
 In my experience 'Tracking' doesn't really exist; usually no matter what (western) company is responsible for the delivery; in China, things are done differently. It'll most likely be a local company moving your order, and even the most reputable don't use a tracking system (that implies accountability, which is a 'strange' concept in China). But, they are pretty quick. The biggest hold-up would be customs itself.
 I expect that the delivery company (DHL, EMS etc.) won't be truly accountable, for the package, until around customs. So, the first tracking information that you'll probably get, is when it leaves Chinese customs.
  
 Hope this helps.
  
 EDIT: So yes, chill out and give it some time (before you start worrying); this is the 'hidden cost' of getting a bargain!


----------



## DreamKing

Yeah, it was off-putting but I'm just gonna do what the seller keeps repeating at the end of every answer for a bit and "take it easy"...


----------



## Koolpep

xevman said:


> Can anyone give me some insight on what gain to use with certain headphones? Right now I have Denon AH-D2000s and Sennheiser HD600s so i assume leaving the gain switches on their default setting (8db) should suffice, or should i lower it for the denons? Also with planars such as he-560 lcd-2 etc it would be wise to raise the gain to +14db right?




I have mine at 0 (8dB gain standard all switches off) - for HD650 and LCD2f, even with the HE-560 it was ok, even though the +6 gives you more headroom.

Cheers,
K


----------



## Koolpep

liu junyuan said:


> I honestly do not care. They need to stop being little babies.




Usually a little bit of empathy goes a long way.

Chinese sellers might need to emphasize and manage expectations better. Better upfront communication about the shipping times really helps people being more relaxed about it.

When I order from china I get the weirdest shipping promises. I just ignore them and "take it easy" so far - everything arrived eventually


----------



## lukeap69

@Koolpep
  
 I'm anxious to know how the H10 was received in Dubai meet yesterday...Can you share some feedback?
  
 Cheers


----------



## pearljam50000

Is there any HD800 owner that does like the H10 with the HD800?is there enough power?
Thanks.


----------



## lukeap69

I believe @Arnotts like the pairing. It has the power to drive it to insane volume.


----------



## SodaBoy

pearljam50000 said:


> Is there any HD800 owner that does like the H10 with the HD800?is there enough power?
> Thanks.


 
 The H10 has enough power to drive the HD800 to speaker levels of volume.


----------



## Walderstorn

normanl said:


> My H10 was shipped from Taiwan (not China) on Apr.22 and arrived at my doorstep on Apr.25. Hope that you'll have the same luck.


 
  
 From what vendor?


----------



## Koolpep

lukeap69 said:


> @Koolpep
> 
> I'm anxious to know how the H10 was received in Dubai meet yesterday...Can you share some feedback?
> 
> Cheers


 

 Very well - quite a few people heard it - two of them are eager to buy one as far as I could tell. And we had two H10s at the meet. 
  
 So in general while talking about it - there seems to be the misconception that this is a very expensive am, $700. So the excitement was much bigger when people learned the real price.
  
 Cheers,
 Ralf


----------



## lukeap69

koolpep said:


> Very well - quite a few people heard it - two of them are eager to buy one as far as I could tell. And we had two H10s at the meet.
> 
> So in general while talking about it - there seems to be the misconception that this is a very expensive am, $700. So the excitement was much bigger when people learned the real price.
> 
> ...


 
 Nice! It seems you had a lot of fun in the meet. Good job!


----------



## normanl

walderstorn said:


> From what vendor?


 
 Vintage Audio Lab


----------



## Walderstorn

normanl said:


> Vintage Audio Lab


 
 Crap i was going to buy from him  lol he was cheaper but then i read the feedback from users here and asked pollychen to price-match, even though  the ebay feedback wasnt near as good. Oh well, lets see what happens.


----------



## floydfan33

My ebay order from Vintage Audio Lab ordered April 22 arrived in Canada today. Tracking never worked, even once it was in Canada Post's hands.


----------



## DreamKing

floydfan33 said:


> My ebay order from Vintage Audio Lab ordered April 22 arrived in Canada today. Tracking never worked, even once it was in Canada Post's hands.


 
  
 Thank you buddy! I guess you mean you picked them up today. I'm in Ontario but this is in line with what I thought would happen more or less at this point.


----------



## floydfan33

dreamking said:


> Thank you buddy! I guess you mean you picked them up today. I'm in Ontario but this is in line with what I thought would happen more or less at this point.


I'm in Vancouver. Surprisingly Canada Post delivered it today. Signature required. Don't use the cheap power cord they ship with it. I thought I had a bad AC connector on the unit, but swapping out the included cord fixed it.


----------



## floydfan33

Some initial observations with the H10 (PreGain set to +6) and my headphones. DAC is an iFi Micro iDSD.
  
 Sennheiser HD800 - All the comments that the H10 tames the 6K hump that bothers some with the HD800 is confirmed based on my initial listen. I find that the H10 maintains nice bass weight and speed, decent energy in the treble, but does seem smoother with older and less than stellar recordings. It would seem to share this characteristic with the V200, which I have listened to previously. Good soundstage, and good detail retrieval. 
  
 Fostex TH900 - Low noise floor at +6, and good swing on the volume pot. Not much of a sonic difference vs the headphone out of my iFi Micro iDSD, possibly a little better bass impact, but I couldn't quite get the volume matched. I've been really happy with the iDSD/TH900 combo, so not disappointed that it is on equal footing.
  
 Build quality is decent, although the power switch feels a little cheap. I would say that it should be competitive with some well respected more expensive gear.
  
 I'd recommend it as very low risk to disappoint with either of these headphones


----------



## pearljam50000

How much better is the H10 than the Asgard 2?


----------



## jaywillin

is the h10 better than the A2 ? i didn't know that


----------



## pearljam50000

I just assumed it is...


----------



## jaywillin

if you ask the folks over on the schiit thread, they may think the A2 better
 it depends on who you ask as to what's better, 
 also, there's really no way to measure "how much better" is there ?


----------



## PWGuy

Best we can hope for is for someone that has A/B'd them..


----------



## pearljam50000

@jaywillin
 I don't know the answers, that is why i ask questions on head-fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 And i assumed the H10 is better because it's more expensive, and is supposed to be a clone of 1000$ amp, so 4 times the price of the Asgard 2...so it makes sense it is better.


----------



## Koolpep

pearljam50000 said:


> How much better is the H10 than the Asgard 2?


 

 by around 12.76 AEP maybe 12.35 AEP even.
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## Koolpep

pwguy said:


> Best we can hope for is for someone that has A/B'd them..


 
  
 I have only A/Bed it with the Asgard 1 not the 2. The Asgard was too hot in the treble to me and lacked a bit of the lower end power the H10 has. Soundstage seems to be slightly larger with the H10 - also the LCD-2 and HE-400 just sounded much better with the H10.
  
 I A/Bed the H10 with the Lyr2 with Bugle boy tubes and stock tubes - had both at home to buy used. For me, the H10 won and that was the one I bought. Not entirely sure what it was but the H10 just felt more musical and enjoyable to me. The Lyr2 was no slouch either and I would probably be equally happy with it. But with my headphones I found the H10 to sound more tubey than the Lyr2 - I liked the H10 better.
  


koolpep said:


> by around 12.76 AEP maybe 12.35 AEP even.
> 
> Cheers,
> K


 

 Ok, this was a joke. Every time someone asks "how much better" I answer in AEP (a totally artificial and nonsensical measurement system I made up myself, it's *A*udiophile *E*njoyment *P*oints) usually Amps score between 12 and 13 AEP (quite a lot more than 11) while DACs score 5-ish - headphones though can go up to mental 29 AEPs.
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## lukeap69

koolpep said:


> by around 12.76 AEP maybe 12.35 AEP even.
> 
> Cheers,
> K




Are you sure it is not 12.37?


----------



## Koolpep

lukeap69 said:


> koolpep said:
> 
> 
> > by around 12.76 AEP maybe 12.35 AEP even.
> ...




You are really pushing it. But it might be possible with these DIP switch settings for the pre gain:


----------



## jaywillin

pearljam50000 said:


> @jaywillin
> I don't know the answers, that is why i ask questions on head-fi
> 
> 
> ...


 
 i'm not trying to be argumentative , it's just a very hard question to answer, with no definitive answer, you ask ten different people, you may get ten different answers
 and i'd suggest caution with assuming because something cost more, it's better, that'd be like saying that someone who has a higher post count on head-fi must know more.
  
 my point is its all relative, i might think one way, someone else another


----------



## DecentLevi

I would like to make a suggestion that postings regarding shipping issues should never be posted anywhere on Head-Fi; unless perhaps it's a very unusual issue such as you never received your package after 2 months. These forums are used to help prospective buyers gather information pertinent to making a purchase decision, and for members to gain useful information. Keep in mind that these posts are more or less forever, so it's a pretty safe bet that Joe Blow in 2020 won't really care that somebody had to wait a couple extra days for his package in 2015. I know this may come across the wrong way, but this is in effort to make (at least this forum) more concise and clutter free.


----------



## bavinck

Any of you guys eq with the H10? I have to admit, I finally broke down and eqed for the first time ever. I guess I am a basshead as I just wanted more bass out of my H10/HE500 combo, so I am running an 8db bass boost in foobar and pretty happy with the results. I may back off a bit in time, but I got much more punch now!


----------



## genclaymore

When ever I get my H10 from mass-drop the only thing I gonna do if is Change the op-amps if I do any thing. Besides the ones that mentioned earlier in this thread there was others I used in the past on many different op-amp socket-ed sources that i may try. But I am gonna just leave it as it is for the time being til I get used to it. But I am curious if any one tried using the TO-99 metal caps on adapters of course in the H10  like the LME49720 HAor op-amps like Two single LME49990NA's and LME49720NA's yet. I hoping they get them in some times next week. Because I getting tiring of playing hot potato with the Asgard 2 when i go to move something out the way or turn it off.


----------



## Schopenhauer

decentlevi said:


> I would like to make a suggestion that postings regarding shipping issues should never be posted anywhere on Head-Fi; unless perhaps it's a very unusual issue such as you never received your package after 2 months. These forums are used to help prospective buyers gather information pertinent to making a purchase decision, and for members to gain useful information. Keep in mind that these posts are more or less forever, so it's a pretty safe bet that Joe Blow in 2020 won't really care that somebody had to wait a couple extra days for his package in 2015. I know this may come across the wrong way, but this is in effort to make (at least this forum) more concise and clutter free.


 
 I agree. Because I'm about ready to unsubscribe from this thread.


----------



## floydfan33

decentlevi said:


> I would like to make a suggestion that postings regarding shipping issues should never be posted anywhere on Head-Fi; unless perhaps it's a very unusual issue such as you never received your package after 2 months. These forums are used to help prospective buyers gather information pertinent to making a purchase decision, and for members to gain useful information. Keep in mind that these posts are more or less forever, so it's a pretty safe bet that Joe Blow in 2020 won't really care that somebody had to wait a couple extra days for his package in 2015. I know this may come across the wrong way, but this is in effort to make (at least this forum) more concise and clutter free.


 
 I think that shipping and purchase experiences for a product primarily available through overseas ebay sellers is very pertinent to making a purchase decision. Some of these sellers will be on ebay in 1,2, and 5 years, so knowing if they have a good or bad record, plus wait time info, goes a long way in influencing decisions and managing expectations.


----------



## Schopenhauer

floydfan33 said:


> decentlevi said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to make a suggestion that postings regarding shipping issues should never be posted anywhere on Head-Fi; unless perhaps it's a very unusual issue such as you never received your package after 2 months. These forums are used to help prospective buyers gather information pertinent to making a purchase decision, and for members to gain useful information. Keep in mind that these posts are more or less forever, so it's a pretty safe bet that Joe Blow in 2020 won't really care that somebody had to wait a couple extra days for his package in 2015. I know this may come across the wrong way, but this is in effort to make (at least this forum) more concise and clutter free.
> ...


 
 Then leave feedback on eBay and don't ruin this thread.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

schopenhauer said:


> I agree. Because I'm about ready to unsubscribe from this thread.




+1000

I already did.


----------



## lukeap69

This used to be a happy place. Let's bring it back to the way it was before. Happy swabbies, aren't we?


----------



## Walderstorn

It will be, dont worry


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> +1000
> 
> I already did.



That's too bad, been really enjoying your thoughts on the h10.


----------



## DreamKing

Received my HE-560 replacement today so I'm back in heaven, I'll shut the f up until the H10 gets here. I don't like the fighting. Peace, love and music for everybody.  
  
 Hey we almost signed a truce before the posts got deleted, I'll be chilling.


----------



## olek

bavinck said:


> Any of you guys eq with the H10?


 
 I do worse things than that. I send signal first to my pre-amp NAD-1020, and only then to H10. That allows me to use the infamous vintage loudness button. Before fire brigade arrives to throw me into the fire, I will be quick to say that I also adjust volume knob on NAD 1020 to 12:00, where 'loudness' feature is about to turn off completely, and is very weak, just boosting sub-bass a tiny bit. I like that setting for most of music. Now, for symphonies, I find that many of them are recorded with way too little sub-bass (and I know how that recurring tuba in Sibelius Symphony No. 2 in D major is supposed to sound, because I have heard it live recently, and it was awesome!), and there I turn that volume knob down to 11:30, allowing for a bit more boost, and that is perfect. Why don't I use bass tone control knob, you ask? It is a good knob, and works well, but it is targeting frequencies a little bit higher, kinda crossing from sub-to-mid bass, and I generally have no desire to boost those.
  
 Very happy with this setup. Now, just to disrupt my hard-earned mental peace, mailman delivered today box with Bottlehead Crack kit (at last! 4 weeks is a long wait!). It will take me some time to put it together, but I suspect it may create some interesting competition for H10 with HD650.


----------



## Walderstorn

That will be some fun comparison .


----------



## ginetto61

olek said:


> I do worse things than that. I send signal first to my pre-amp NAD-1020, and only then to H10. That allows me to use the infamous vintage loudness button.
> Before fire brigade arrives to throw me into the fire, I will be quick to say that I also adjust volume knob on NAD 1020 to 12:00, where 'loudness' feature is about to turn off completely, and is very weak,...


 
  
 Hi and i understand you.  Sometimes i feel like *the only thing i would need is a very good buffer *(like the H10 could very well be maybe at lowest gain with the volume full open) *after my loved line preamp*.
 It can be tubed or SS but i think anyone around has a favourite preamp.  I have at least 3. But they cannot drive HPs directly.
 I am thinking seriously about this H10 .... i think that as a buffer could be quite powerful and transparent.
 Regards, gino


----------



## sportteo

are you sυre that gustard H10 is better from lyr2 ?


----------



## Koolpep

sportteo said:


> are you sυre that gustard H10 is better from lyr2 ?




I had them both at home for a few days and I liked the H10 more. But the Lyr2 is as good as the H10. You won't go wrong with either of the two.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

I have both and I would say it depends to a point on the tubes in the Lyr.
 The H10 is certainly quieter and I like the volume/gain  control options with
 the dip switches.  Part of the difference too is the "smoothness" of Class A
 vs. a hybrid output on the lyr.  Both have ample output power to run any of
 my dynamics or planars.
 Hibuck...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

hibuckhobby said:


> I have both and I would say it depends to a point on the tubes in the Lyr.
> The H10 is certainly quieter and I like the volume/gain  control options with
> the dip switches.  Part of the difference too is the "smoothness" of Class A
> vs. a hybrid output on the lyr.  Both have ample output power to run any of
> ...


 
 I would agree with this. The Lyr 2 cleans up the noise floor considerably, but it is not an issue for me. 
  
 The H10 seems more technically superior to me, but when the Lyr has decent tubes (and you need not spend too exorbitantly), it can be wonderful. It sings and scintillates with strings and voices, and the H10 cannot reproduce the holographic effect that only tubes are capable of. I still think the H10 is more resolving and detailed, but only slightly. Moreover, their signatures are entirely different, so it really depends on what one is looking for in sound.


----------



## xevman

Mine just arrived safely and working (though the 230 or 115 volt ac not being marked made me a little nervous ) will give impressions soon paired to my hd600 and denon ahd2000 my previous amplifier was a woo audio wa6 with ugprades. For the source ill be using is a dacmagic100 through toslink optical out of my pc. Only gripe i have so far sometimes the volume knob grinds against the chassis but that can easily be fixed by loosening the screw that holds it in place and sliding it forward a bit.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

xevman said:


> Mine just arrived safely and working (though the 230 or 115 volt ac not being marked made me a little nervous ) will give impressions soon paired to my hd600 and denon ahd2000 my previous amplifier was a woo audio wa6 with ugprades. For the source ill be using is a dacmagic100 through toslink optical out of my pc. Only gripe i have so far sometimes the volume knob grinds against the chassis but that can easily be fixed by loosening the screw that holds it in place and sliding it forward a bit.




There was one other poster that had this from the Massdrop sale. He posted here about it. If you open up the case you might see something pushing down on or against the the pot. In other words, mine is smooth and that grind is not part of the amp's intended character. I am sorry this happened to you. Not sure why.


----------



## xevman

liu junyuan said:


> There was one other poster that had this from the Massdrop sale. He posted here about it. If you open up the case you might see something pushing down on or against the the pot. In other words, mine is smooth and that grind is not part of the amp's intended character. I am sorry this happened to you. Not sure why.


 
 I fixed it just by loosening the volume knob with an alan key and moving it forward the grinding is gone now.
 As for first impressions very good
 Channel Imbalance almost non existent and only really noticeable at very low volumes with super sensitive iems (i have it from standard gain so lower gain it would be even better)
 Noise floor is also ridiculously silent. IEMS on standard gain (which you shouldnt be doing) you can barely pick up on any noise and its non existent in my other headphones. (even sensitive ones like the d2000s)

 Too early to comment on its sound yet.


----------



## genclaymore

I hope that mine from massdrop come marked as 115v as this long wait and something like that happens, i would be annoyed.


----------



## xevman

genclaymore said:


> I hope that mine from massdrop come marked as 115v as this long wait and something like that happens, i would be annoyed.


 
 you can switch between the voltages im pretty sure but you need to pull the case apart in order to do so.


----------



## BassDigger

genclaymore said:


> I hope that mine from massdrop come marked as 115v as this long wait and something like that happens, i would be annoyed.


 
  


xevman said:


> you can switch between the voltages im pretty sure but you need to pull the case apart in order to do so.


 
  
 Yeah, that's already been discussed here; if you look earlier in the thread, I think somebody has uploaded some pics showing the voltage switches, located between the transformers.
 Looks pretty easy to set, (but I guess that it'll already be set to the country of destination.).


----------



## Liu Junyuan

genclaymore said:


> I hope that mine from massdrop come marked as 115v as this long wait and something like that happens, i would be annoyed.




If you ordered from Massdrop, you should be fine.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

xevman said:


> I fixed it just by loosening the volume knob with an alan key and moving it forward the grinding is gone now.
> 
> As for first impressions very good
> 
> ...




Yeah, if you peruse this thread you will see some pretty varying impressions regarding burn-in/warm-up. 

I hated it at first and was set upon selling it through the third day constantly running music through it. It sounded terrible compared to the Lyr. Something happened on the fourth day that just made it come alive for some reason. The contrast in impressions was pretty drastic. Now the H10 has usurped my Lyr's slot on the desktop, at least for the time being. Switching back to the Lyr never leaves me feeling disappointed though, as I "have a thing" for tubes


----------



## bavinck

Fyi: vintage audio lab sent me an h10 instead of the x12 I ordered. They refunded me the cost of shipping it back and told me he would mail me an x12 today. Guy is a class act about this so far. This should ease peoples concerns about buying from these eBay sellers.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Fyi: vintage audio lab sent me an h10 instead of the x12 I ordered. They refunded me the cost of shipping it back and told me he would mail me an x12 today. Guy is a class act about this so far. This should ease peoples concerns about buying from these eBay sellers.




Thats good they took care of you. Annoying they messed up the product though. Let us know what you think of the X12. What dac are upgrading from ?


----------



## bavinck

Modi 1, I am expecting a significant upgrade (I hope anyway) . I was really disappointed when I opened it up, but 5 mins later I got over it. For the price these guys are making these things it is hard to expect much in terms of shipping speed and customer service. I think vintage is handling it great thus far.


----------



## bavinck

We better get back on topic though, sorry to all that don't care


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Modi 1, I am expecting a significant upgrade (I hope anyway) . I was really disappointed when I opened it up, but 5 mins later I got over it. For the price these guys are making these things it is hard to expect much in terms of shipping speed and customer service. I think vintage is handling it great thus far.




It's okay. I owned a Modi 1. You are going to be hearing a major upgrade.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> It's okay. I owned a Modi 1. You are going to be hearing a major upgrade.


 
 That's good news. Hopefully in a month I can say you are right!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> That's good news. Hopefully in a month I can say you are right!


 
 So how are you feeling about the H10 with your planars?


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> So how are you feeling about the H10 with your planars?


 
 Love it with the h500s. Very, very nice pairing. I boosted the sub bass a smidge by eq and now I am completely satisfied. Using the focus-A pads.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Love it with the h500s. Very, very nice pairing. I boosted the sub bass a smidge by eq and now I am completely satisfied. Using the focus-A pads.




Good to hear it.


----------



## normanl

I'm consider to purchase Beyerdynamic Manufaktur DT880-600 ohm from Massdrop. How well will H10 drive it and any synergy between them? Any information will be appreciated.


----------



## daltonlanny

How long does it usually take to get the Gustard H10 from Vintage Audio Lab off Ebay?
I ordered mine at the first of May, and still haven't received it.
The tracking number they gave shows me nothing, and hasn't been updated.
Anyone else besides bavinck on here have any experience with them?


----------



## DecentLevi

@normanl although I haven't tried this combination yet, I would venture out to say the DT 880's 600 ohm would pair quite well with the H10 amp. The H10 puts out 570 mW into 600 ohm. I have owned the 32 ohm version for several years, and I can remember how it's surprising how these babies can wake up with a decent amp. Also from what I've read about the bass characteristics with the H10 and its' sub-bass extension, that should do quite well to add some needed sub-bass to it.
  
 EDIT: I would however venture to say that the DT 880 250 ohm would pair much better with the H10, as this amp seems to output about 5x more wattage into 250 than 600 ohms; as is with almost all amps, that 300mw or less is much more universally compatible than 600 ohms.
  
@daltonlanny we already came to a consensus earlier this week that we are not discussing shipping on this thread. That's a topic for eBay feedback, while audio components are a topic for Head-fi.


----------



## DreamKing

H10 just arrived like 2 hours ago. Running my Beresford Capella as a preamp with knob on max. Currently using the H10's knob for volume, all the switches are down. Better sound than just plugging it into the H10 IMO. I tried using the switches on the back for gain but they make the sound too thin to my ears. 
  
 vs the Capella:
 Imaging is better on the H10, soundstage mixes very well with my Bushmaster MKII dac so it has overall better depth and breadth. Really big, wide sound. Much more resolving too and I think that's the biggest difference from before I got the H10. Tonal balance seemed a bit too thin initially but running the Capella as a preamp brought it back to a smooth balanced tone. 
  
 Gonna burn it in for 4 days straight and see what happens next. I think it ticks initial boxes so far, now to see if it goes beyond. I'm enjoying the music right now.


----------



## DecentLevi

@DreamKing so do all of your initial tests point to that the H10 sounds better when paired with the Beresford Capella as a pre-amp than solo?


----------



## DreamKing

decentlevi said:


> @DreamKing so do all of your initial tests point to that the H10 sounds better when paired with the Beresford Capella as a pre-amp than solo?


 
  
 Yes, to my ears, it's more pleasant (more organic).
  
  
I need a longer dual RCA cable between the Gustard and Capella though...3 foot isn't enough. They're both in awkward positions. Found the perfect spot for the H10 right next to my monitor. I'm liking this all black setup for my audio equipment, monitor, keyboard and my PC case.


----------



## GioF71

New happy Gustard owner here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 U12 + X12 + H10 + Sennheiser HD650
 This is the first photo.
 On top a Schiit Wyrd
 The awful pc on the right of the stack (really awful case) is the linux dedicated music player, with mpd + upmpdcli, operated with Gnome Music Player Client on Windows. I have had enough of windows usb 2.0 audio drivers, it is like I am breathing fresh air since I completed this solution.
 Still lots of work to do: better casing for the PC and a linear power supply, in some time.
  
 Cheers


----------



## xevman

giof71 said:


> New happy Gustard owner here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Is there any tangible benefit of using the gustard u12 over the outputs on a motherboard? I currently use optical out of my pc straight to my dac and am wondering what benefits there are adding this to the digital signal chain or its sole purpose to serve as a hub for more digital outputs?


----------



## GioF71

Hello, I am no expert, but still I noticed a big improvement when I started using a XMOS SPDIF interface with internal psu (bought on Audiophonics.fr), versus the SPDIF out of my Asus Xonar Essence STX, which still had some appreciation around (IIRC on computeraudiophile.com).
  
 Also, I noticed a big improvement, on my office setup, when I added a M2Tech HiFace2 to connect a SMSL Sanskrit via coaxial SPDIF vs the SMSL built in usb (let alone the sanskrit only supports up to 96kHz from USB, but up to 192kHz from coaxial).
  
 I directly connected the gustard stack with the U12 AND the Schiit Wyrd. Didn't have the time to make direct comparisons connecting the DAC directly to the PC, and using/not using the Schiit Wyrd.
  
 So in a few words, in my opinion, yes, it can make a big difference to use a dedicated spdif interface, especially vs any straight spdif output from any pc.
 The U12 has a dedicated thread here on head-fi, maybe you can find better answers: http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip
  
 My .02€
  
 Bye


----------



## olek

giof71 said:


> New happy Gustard owner here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
Looks great! And I am SO happy I met another mpd user, never thought it would actually happen. Although I run it old-school way, letting it scan my library. Hopefully you configured it for bit-perfect output to usb, bypassing any OS modifications/conversions.

  
 To @normanl : I already joined drop for DT880s, I think between (un-built yet) Crack and H10 I should be able to drive them properly.


----------



## DreamKing

@xevman, I use toslink from my soundcard to my dac and it's completely transparent. I looked into it as well and there would be no difference logically. I don't use coaxial though so can't say for that specifically.
  
 Most people use external interface for usb because you can run into a lot of issues on computers. In a lot of cases, computer interfaces for usb just aren't made with audio in mind and so aren't up to par with optical.


----------



## xevman

dreamking said:


> @xevman, I use toslink from my soundcard to my dac and it's completely transparent. I looked into it as well and there would be no difference logically. I don't use coaxial though so can't say for that specifically.
> 
> Most people use external interface for usb because you can run into a lot of issues on computers. In a lot of cases, computer interfaces for usb just aren't made with audio in mind and so aren't up to par with optical.


 
 Exactly the reason i use optical with my dacmagic100, Even with the ground on lift i can still hear a slight electrical noise with no music playing when moving the mouse or doing general activities on the computer. With optical as there is no electrical connection between the PC and the DAC there is no noise what so ever, completely silent. People say Optical is more prone to jitter and isnt up to par with asynchronous usb but at the end of the day its a digital signal right? There probably isnt any audible benefit.


----------



## xevman

giof71 said:


> Hello, I am no expert, but still I noticed a big improvement when I started using a XMOS SPDIF interface with internal psu (bought on Audiophonics.fr), versus the SPDIF out of my Asus Xonar Essence STX, which still had some appreciation around (IIRC on computeraudiophile.com).
> 
> Also, I noticed a big improvement, on my office setup, when I added a M2Tech HiFace2 to connect a SMSL Sanskrit via coaxial SPDIF vs the SMSL built in usb (let alone the sanskrit only supports up to 96kHz from USB, but up to 192kHz from coaxial).
> 
> ...


 
 I think it depends on how well implemented the optical output is on the motherboard or soundcard. I'm sure there can be poor implementations.


----------



## DreamKing

xevman said:


> Exactly the reason i use optical with my dacmagic100, Even with the ground on lift i can still hear a slight electrical noise with no music playing when moving the mouse or doing general activities on the computer. With optical as there is no electrical connection between the PC and the DAC there is no noise what so ever, completely silent. People say Optical is more prone to jitter and isnt up to par with asynchronous usb but at the end of the day its a digital signal right? There probably isnt any audible benefit.


 
  
 Agreed. If it sounds transparent, I see no reason to seek anything else as a transport unless it's for other reasons like more connectivity options.
  
 On topic, I'm really impressed by the H10's noise floor. It is transparent with my HE-560. I plugged my K550 too and couldn't hear anything from the feeding chain. This wasn't an issue with my Capella either but I respect equipment with transparency as a standard. I may try my custom in-ears to test it on the H10, as it was free of noise with the Capella.


----------



## xevman

dreamking said:


> Agreed. If it sounds transparent, I see no reason to seek anything else as a transport unless it's for other reasons like more connectivity options.
> 
> On topic, I'm really impressed by the H10's noise floor. It is transparent with my HE-560. I plugged my K550 too and couldn't hear anything from the feeding chain. This wasn't an issue with my Capella either but I respect equipment with transparency as a standard. I may try my custom in-ears to test it on the H10, as it was free of noise with the Capella.


 
 Yeah it is insanely good the only time i hear a slight hiss is with super sensitive iems but lets be real here who in their right mind would run iems off this amp? Although the low output impedance makes it an option.


----------



## daltonlanny

Can't wait to do a head to head between the Gustard H10 and the Beta 22 with the Hifiman HE1000.
Its going to be interesting 
I'm currently having my gain modded on my Beta 22 from 2x to 8x in Knoxville, and still waiting on the Gustard H10 and HE1000 to arrive as well.


----------



## xevman

daltonlanny said:


> Can't wait to do a head to head between the Gustard H10 and the Beta 22 with the Hifiman HE1000.
> Its going to be interesting
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have a feeling it will pair very well, People swear by it with other Hifiman cans and another forum member said it easily drove HE-6s and said it was a great combo


----------



## daltonlanny

Yeah, in its current 2x gain setting, I feel the Beta 22 needs just alittle more grunt with planars, hence the gain mod to 8x.
Yes, the Gustard should also pair very well with the HE1000, considering how well it pairs with the HE-560 and HE-500.


----------



## xevman

Any power output specifications of the beta22?


----------



## DreamKing

^From amb's website: 
  

Power output0.75Wrms into 300Ω
 5.6Wrms into 32Ω
 18Wrms into 8Ω
  
 I tihnk I calculated a while ago it would be really close to 4Wrms at 50Ω. All of that with less than 0.01 ohm impedance. I had a good deal on a 3 channel beta 22 but my gut told me to get the gustard for some reason. And dalton made me confident in my choice , via my pm questions.


----------



## daltonlanny

The B22 has plenty of power for most all dynamic headphones, but I have to virtually max out the volume on certain planars, and my vintage Beyerdynamic 600 ohm DT990 with music recorded at lower levels, just to get a fairly satisfying level. Now, it is single-ended, and my disc players put out around 2v through their outputs.
I was told to get the gain modified from 2x to the default 8x.
Maybe there is something not right with the amp too?


----------



## Walderstorn

decentlevi said:


> @normanl although I haven't tried this combination yet, I would venture out to say the DT 880's 600 ohm would pair quite well with the H10 amp. The H10 puts out 570 mW into 600 ohm. I have owned the 32 ohm version for several years, and I can remember how it's surprising how these babies can wake up with a decent amp. Also from what I've read about the bass characteristics with the H10 and its' sub-bass extension, that should do quite well to add some needed sub-bass to it.
> 
> EDIT: I would however venture to say that the DT 880 250 ohm would pair much better with the H10, as this amp seems to output about 5x more wattage into 250 than 600 ohms; as is with almost all amps, that 300mw or less is much more universally compatible than 600 ohms.
> 
> @daltonlanny we already came to a consensus earlier this week that we are not discussing shipping on this thread. That's a topic for eBay feedback, while audio components are a topic for Head-fi.


 
  
 Consensus ? I would not call that  a consensus in any shape or form, not from me, Dreamking and others.
  


xevman said:


> Exactly the reason i use optical with my dacmagic100, Even with the ground on lift i can still hear a slight electrical noise with no music playing when moving the mouse or doing general activities on the computer. With optical as there is no electrical connection between the PC and the DAC there is no noise what so ever, completely silent. People say Optical is more prone to jitter and isnt up to par with asynchronous usb but at the end of the day its a digital signal right? There probably isnt any audible benefit.


 
 Ill have to try when my amp arrives, after all i was thinking of using the USB (asynchronous) but if optical is the way to go i will definitely compare the 2 and see how it goes.
  
 On another subject, just to be sure, are you guys using the power cord that came with it, or a different one? Ive read not only on this thread that some felt the cables that came with this kind of equipment are kinda of bad.


----------



## xevman

walderstorn said:


> Consensus ? I would not call that  a consensus in any shape or form, not from me, Dreamking and others.
> 
> Ill have to try when my amp arrives, after all i was thinking of using the USB (asynchronous) but if optical is the way to go i will definitely compare the 2 and see how it goes.
> 
> On another subject, just to be sure, are you guys using the power cord that came with it, or a different one? Ive read not only on this thread that some felt the cables that came with this kind of equipment are kinda of bad.




The power chord that shipped with my unit was a thicker guage then the one that came with my corsair ax860watt platinum power supply on my pc. If the lower guage chord is good for 860watts I'm sure the cable that ships with the unit is good enough for a little headphone amp.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> @normanl although I haven't tried this combination yet, I would venture out to say the DT 880's 600 ohm would pair quite well with the H10 amp. The H10 puts out 570 mW into 600 ohm. I have owned the 32 ohm version for several years, and I can remember how it's surprising how these babies can wake up with a decent amp. Also from what I've read about the bass characteristics with the H10 and its' sub-bass extension, that should do quite well to add some needed sub-bass to it.
> 
> EDIT: I would however venture to say that the DT 880 250 ohm would pair much better with the H10, as this amp seems to output about 5x more wattage into 250 than 600 ohms; as is with almost all amps, that 300mw or less is much more universally compatible than 600 ohms.
> 
> @daltonlanny we already came to a consensus earlier this week that we are not discussing shipping on this thread. That's a topic for eBay feedback, while audio components are a topic for Head-fi.


 
 I agree with this post. The signature of the Beyers would pair nicely with the slightly warmer, darker, velvety layers of the H10. But the 600 ohm really would require an OTL amp with high voltage to maximize its potential. The 250 ohm would be ideal for this particular amp. 
  
 With that said, you might as well grab the 600 ohm for the deal and worry about an otl amp later. They would probably still be nice on the H10, just not max potential.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

daltonlanny said:


> Yeah, in its current 2x gain setting, I feel the Beta 22 needs just alittle more grunt with planars, hence the gain mod to 8x.
> Yes, the Gustard should also pair very well with the HE1000, considering how well it pairs with the HE-560 and HE-500.


 
 Yes. I almost want to say the most ideal planars for the H10 that currently exist on the market, though, are the HE-560 and the LCD-X due to their slightly brighter nature. I wish my dad would send me his HE-560s to try out on it. It is funny, because he has the Oppo-HA1, which is brighter than the H10 by a considerable margin, and I feel it makes a better pairing with my HE-500s than the HE-560s, which is not to say that the latter is not good with the Oppo; it is, but rather the ideal would be to complement the signature of each. 
  
 HE-1000 would probably quite solid since it is in between bright and warm, sort of like taking the best of the Sennheiser HD 800 and the LCD-3 with electrostat speed and air. I have a feeling that the HE-1000 will scale very very high though...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

walderstorn said:


> Consensus ? I would not call that  a consensus in any shape or form, not from me, Dreamking and others.
> 
> Ill have to try when my amp arrives, after all i was thinking of using the USB (asynchronous) but if optical is the way to go i will definitely compare the 2 and see how it goes.
> 
> On another subject, just to be sure, are you guys using the power cord that came with it, or a different one? Ive read not only on this thread that some felt the cables that came with this kind of equipment are kinda of bad.


 
 Stuartmc did upgrade the power cable and claimed to have heard better results. I lack experience with upgrading power cables, though. 
  
 He mentioned the specific one he was using; I think it was just above $100. 
  
 I hope you can all get your amps soon.


----------



## DreamKing

The supplied power cord was way too short so I'm using a 10A 125V one.


----------



## stuartmc

liu junyuan said:


> Stuartmc did upgrade the power cable and claimed to have heard better results. I lack experience with upgrading power cables, though.
> 
> He mentioned the specific one he was using; I think it was just above $100.
> 
> I hope you can all get your amps soon.


 
 Actually I tried six different power cords I had on hand. I ended up using the Analysis Plus Power Oval that cost $330 for a 6 ft. cord.  I like these cords so much that I am using three of them on the Gustard U12, X12 and H10.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

stuartmc said:


> Actually I tried six different power cords I had on hand. I ended up using the Analysis Plus Power Oval that cost $330 for a 6 ft. cord.  I like these cords so much that I am using three of them on the Gustard U12, X12 and H10.




Oh wow okay. My memory is poor on the details but that is good to know. I recall the name now. Could you elaborate on what you are hearing through them versus stock?


----------



## BassDigger

walderstorn said:


> On another subject, just to be sure, are you guys using the power cord that came with it, or a different one? Ive read not only on this thread that some felt the cables that came with this kind of equipment are kinda of bad.


 
  


xevman said:


> The power chord that shipped with my unit was a thicker guage then the one that came with my corsair ax860watt platinum power supply on my pc. If the lower guage chord is good for 860watts I'm sure the cable that ships with the unit is good enough for a little headphone amp.


 
  
 I'm not sure what problems, exactly, the others may have had with their power cables. But I doubt it's a current capacity problem. And besides, cables included in the box are of an ever varying quality; many can only be viewed as a 'get you started' item.
  
 I'm a firm believer in 'clean power'; I'll get a dedicated power conditioner, once I have my main components up to standard. But I believe a 'sound' investment, in the meantime, are proper mains cables. I think that these should be the first upgrade for any piece of audio equipment (provided you're not still using any 'out of the box' cables in the audio line). And once you've bought your mains cable, you can transplant it to any (new) piece of kit with an IEC power socket.


----------



## DecentLevi

daltonlanny said:


> Yeah, in its current 2x gain setting, I feel the Beta 22 needs just alittle more grunt with planars, hence the gain mod to 8x.
> Yes, the Gustard should also pair very well with the HE1000, considering how well it pairs with the HE-560 and HE-500.


 
 I would be interested to hear reviews if the HE-1000 can be driven well with the H10 amp. I had tried this headphone at CanJam with the Hifiman EF-100 amp, and again with their EF-1000 (unreleased) amp, and the difference was night/day to me: Thin, finicky lossy-like sound from the EF-100, but very authoritative and "all there" with the EF-1000 amp. I have also heard several head-fi'ers were very impressed with the performance of the HE-1000 from the Rangarok amp. 

 Just to give you an idea of the voltage needed, here's the max. output of these amps (per channel into 32 ohm):
 EF-100:         2 watts
 Gustard H10: 2 watts
 EF-1000        8 watts (I believe)
 Rangarok:     15 watts
  
 Not to knock the H10, as these are definitely the most cost effective of the bunch


----------



## DreamKing

^Yes, and to be fair the Ragnarok is as much a speaker amp as a headphone amp.


----------



## auvgeek

stuartmc said:


> Actually I tried six different power cords I had on hand. I ended up using the Analysis Plus Power Oval that cost $330 for a 6 ft. cord.  I like these cords so much that I am using three of them on the Gustard U12, X12 and H10.


 

 Is this the same one? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/analysis-plus-pro-power-oval-power-cable


----------



## Koolpep

decentlevi said:


> I would be interested to hear reviews if the HE-1000 can be driven well with the H10 amp. I had tried this headphone at CanJam with the Hifiman EF-100 amp, and again with their EF-1000 (unreleased) amp, and the difference was night/day to me: Thin, finicky lossy-like sound from the EF-100, but very authoritative and "all there" with the EF-1000 amp. I have also heard several head-fi'ers were very impressed with the performance of the HE-1000 from the Rangarok amp.
> 
> 
> Just to give you an idea of the voltage needed, here's the max. output of these amps (per channel into 32 ohm):
> ...




Yes, but the H10 puts out 2.7 watts into 50 ohms. A lot of planars have impedances between this sweet spot 32-50 Ohm. I never felt it was underpowered with my HE560, HE400 or LCD2f but I wish it had 1 or 2 watt more juice to be on the safe side. 

Cheers,
K


----------



## DreamKing

True, technically it has more than enough juice for the HE-560 and 1000. Synergy is more than just raw power tthough so that doesn't mean anything to how it will sound. I didn't read DecentLevi's post completely I guess. The EF-100's thin sound heard is just its signature and isn't related to its power.


----------



## floydfan33

xevman said:


> The power chord that shipped with my unit was a thicker guage then the one that came with my corsair ax860watt platinum power supply on my pc. If the lower guage chord is good for 860watts I'm sure the cable that ships with the unit is good enough for a little headphone amp.


The cable I received had a faulty connector. It caused the amp to switch on and off. I thought it was the pins on the amp itself, but replacing the cable solved the issue for me. On closer inspection the rubber surround on the cable was too small, resulting in movement that caused the inconsistent connection.


----------



## xevman

floydfan33 said:


> The cable I received had a faulty connector. It caused the amp to switch on and off. I thought it was the pins on the amp itself, but replacing the cable solved the issue for me. On closer inspection the rubber surround on the cable was too small, resulting in movement that caused the inconsistent connection.


 
 Mine is loose fitting too but i haven't had an issue with it coming off at all.

 Just discovered that the loose fitting cable wasnt to do with the actual IEC port on the unit but the type of IEC cable that shipped with it. I tried a different one and it fit snug with no issues so you are right.


----------



## xevman

Ok i've listened to this amp enough to gather some impressions on it. I'll be comparing it to the Woo Audio WA6 with sofia rectifier upgrade. This response is is probably indicative of the differences between solid states and tube amplifiers in general. Now for some context the Woo Audio WA6 is a transformer coupled amp and doesnt sound like a typical run of the mill OTL design it isnt as lush as warm as one would think but more immediate, more solid-state like sound. Now don't get me wrong you can definitely tell it is a tube amplifer. In comparison to the Gustard the Gustards highs were significantly more present and the bass on my low impedance DENON AH D2000s is a lot tighter and more controlled. Interestingly enough the HD600s felt very much the same just with less rolled off highs. It was obvious that my previous amplifier was more midcentric. You can easily tell this is on a tier above the WA6 especially with electronic music there is no comparison the bass on the woo felt floppy and not as impactful. It is also a more detailed sounding amplifier with more power to boot. The noise floor is considerably lower aswell and I was impressed with the noise floor of the WA6. You can tell this is a high end amp in its sound and probably would be better compared to the WA22 than a WA6. None the less im completely satisfied and i'm not surprised, main reason i purchased this amp was for its better versatility (low output impedance and high current) so i can buy planar headphones down the road.


----------



## GioF71

xevman said:


> I think it depends on how well implemented the optical output is on the motherboard or soundcard. I'm sure there can be poor implementations.




yes, totally agree. of course if a dac has a good usb implementation, the advantage of a dedicated interface may be minimum or even totally non existing.

But, in my setup i will also connect the main pc to the dac via usb, keeping the current wyrd -> u12 -> i2s -> x12 active.
So with a simple source switch on the dac I might use it with windows and foobar, when needed.

Cheers


----------



## GioF71

olek said:


> Looks great! And I am SO happy I met another mpd user, never thought it would actually happen. Although I run it old-school way, letting it scan my library. Hopefully you configured it for bit-perfect output to usb, bypassing any OS modifications/conversions.
> 
> To @normanl
> : I already joined drop for DT880s, I think between (un-built yet) Crack and H10 I should be able to drive them properly.




you are not alone! 

I prefer using upnp because of the flexibility. 
I also access the library from Kodi in the living room.
Kodi's audio library becomes painfully slow when updating if the library is large. This happen since the introduction of the "recently added" and "recently played" features, at least with mysql for sharing the library among more instances.
So I installed MinimServer and never looked back.
Now with the direct support for upnp as database and the ability to use mpd as a upnp renderer with upmpdcli, I can have only one library for all my home audio equipments.


----------



## GioF71

and yes of course it is configured for bitperfect playback!


----------



## BassDigger

xevman said:


> Ok i've listened to this amp enough to gather some impressions on it. I'll be comparing it to the Woo Audio WA6 with sofia rectifier upgrade. This response is is probably indicative of the differences between solid states and tube amplifiers in general. Now for some context the Woo Audio WA6 is a transformer coupled amp and doesnt sound like a typical run of the mill OTL design it isnt as lush as warm as one would think but more immediate, more solid-state like sound. Now don't get me wrong you can definitely tell it is a tube amplifer. In comparison to the Gustard the Gustards highs were significantly more present and the bass on my low impedance DENON AH D2000s is a lot tighter and more controlled. Interestingly enough the HD600s felt very much the same just with less rolled off highs. It was obvious that my previous amplifier was more midcentric. You can easily tell this is on a tier above the WA6 especially with electronic music there is no comparison the bass on the woo felt floppy and not as impactful. It is also a more detailed sounding amplifier with more power to boot. The noise floor is considerably lower aswell and I was impressed with the noise floor of the WA6. You can tell this is a high end amp in its sound and probably would be better compared to the WA22 than a WA6. None the less im completely satisfied and i'm not surprised, main reason i purchased this amp was for its better versatility (low output impedance and high current) so i can buy planar headphones down the road.


 
  
 Thanks for your impressions. These are genuinely useful, because you're making clear comparisons, against a known quantity (the WA6).
  
 How many hours have you run the H10, and have you noticed any changes, in the sound signature, during this time?
  
 Also, your feedback appears very much in favour of the Gustard (something that people around here will like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ), but are there any aspects in which the Woo is preferable?


----------



## xevman

bassdigger said:


> Thanks for your impressions. These are genuinely useful, because you're making clear comparisons, against a known quantity (the WA6).
> 
> How many hours have you run the H10, and have you noticed any changes, in the sound signature, during this time?
> 
> ...


 
 Any recording that has an emphasis on highs the Woo might be nicer to listen too (classical) but it isnt overly rolled off like you'd expect on a tube amp although the gustard will have a more controlled low end. Im young and retain most of my hearing so i tend to stay away from bright headphones hence why i bought the amp in the first place. The gustard makes me wonder why I didnt go solid state from the start and just keep away from brighter sounding headphones. So far maybe 15 hours break in haven't noticed any changes sonically speaking,but i dont believe in solid state amps breaking in unless there are caps in the signal path which i don't think there is on this amp.


----------



## stuartmc

auvgeek said:


> Is this the same one? http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/analysis-plus-pro-power-oval-power-cable



No, these are apparently a more recent budget version. I have the original power ovals that were first released around the year 2001. The ones I have are comparable to the current Power Oval 2 that replaced it. http://www.analysis-plus.com/categories/power-oval-2/

I'm a big analysis-plus fan and reviewed many of their products for Positive Feedback magazine when they first came on the scene. If anyone could do a budget power cord right, my bet would be on them, so the Pro Power Oval is probably a safe choice.


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> No, these are apparently a more recent budget version. I have the original power ovals that were first released around the year 2001. The ones I have are comparable to the current Power Oval 2 that replaced it. http://www.analysis-plus.com/categories/power-oval-2/
> 
> I'm a big analysis-plus fan and reviewed many of their products for Positive Feedback magazine when they first came on the scene. If anyone could do a budget power cord right, my bet would be on them, so the Pro Power Oval is probably a safe choice.


 
  
 From the above link:
  
 Length (feet)
 Connector Type 320IEC/5266i
 WattGate EVO 330/350 Rhodium
 4
*$410.00*
*$720*
 5
*$465.00*
*$775*
 6
*$520.00*
*$830*
 8
*$630.00*
*$940*
 Add $55.00 per additional foot (*additional charges might apply)
 Note – Lengths shorter than 4 feet will be charged at the 4 foot price.
  
 (Sorry for the dodgy copy/paste.)
  
 I'd just like to remind everyone that there are (MUCH) cheaper solutions (if you do your homework)!
 Please remember that this thread is about a $300 amp.


----------



## xevman

bassdigger said:


> From the above link:
> 
> Length (feet)
> Connector Type 320IEC/5266i
> ...


 
 Its an IEC power cable at the end of the day whats one short run going to do when the rest of the wiring in your house is some simple and cheap wiring. The power has to run through that anyway.


----------



## BassDigger

xevman said:


> Its an IEC power cable at the end of the day whats one short run going to do when the rest of the wiring in your house is some simple and cheap wiring. The power has to run through that anyway.


 
  
 Well actually, a properly constructed power cable does _do_ something, and can have quite a profound effect.
 But you have to consider cost ratios, between equipment and ancillaries.
 And also, is something just a 'rip-off', what you're actually getting for your money, no matter what it does?


----------



## Walderstorn

Thanks for the repplies about the power cord, the reason im nowadays eerie of using cheap cables is because a chinese cheap usb extension cable melted a piece of the synthetic leather (after melting the housing itself) layer in my couch from how hot it got while i wasnt around the house, until this day i think how lucky i was that it didnt start a fire, actually got me kind of paranoid about it because i would never thought that would be possible with a usb cable. 
  
 I will compare to a brand new xfx power cable from my psu that i never got to use.


----------



## daltonlanny

When you order the Gustard H10 from Vintage Audio Lab off Ebay, which delivery service usually brings it to your door in the US, DHL or some other service?
Thanks


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> I'd just like to remind everyone that there are (MUCH) cheaper solutions (if you do your homework)!
> Please remember that this thread is about a $300 amp.




I have a bunch of stuff in my Audio closet gathering dust from my previous reviewing days. If you read my previous posts on this subject, you would know that I don't advocate spending the big bucks needlessly. That's why I think the Gustard gear is so good- it's a budget over-achiever. The Analysis Plus Pro Power Oval retails for $100 and I bet you get quite close to the performance of their pricey cords. It's the law of diminishing returns. Some audiophiles are willing to spend a fortune for that last 2%.


----------



## Walderstorn

daltonlanny said:


> When you order the Gustard H10 from Vintage Audio Lab off Ebay, which delivery service usually brings it to your door in the US, DHL or some other service?
> Thanks


 
 Because some users may not keep tabs with the topic i would advise you to use the search in this thread for "vintage audio" then send a PM to the users that actually bought from him, you would get a faster answer probably.
  


stuartmc said:


> I have a bunch of stuff in my Audio closet gathering dust from my previous reviewing days. If you read my previous posts on this subject, you would know that I don't advocate spending the big bucks needlessly. That's why I think the Gustard gear is so good- it's a budget over-achiever. The Analysis Plus Pro Power Oval retails for $100 and I bet you get quite close to the performance of their pricey cords. It's the law of diminishing returns. Some audiophiles are willing to spend a fortune for that last 2%.


  
  
 Thats the reason i chose it, believe me i dont have money to keep spending on audio, so this is actually a tad higher (2x) what i wanted to spend, but i also like a bargain so... just hope the DAC + Amp+ Cans do the trick together.


----------



## xevman

For future reference Ali NO.1 Electronic Co., LTD. on aliexpress sells the amp shipped with DHL shipping for $340 USD Had a good experience purchasing from this seller.


----------



## Lohb

Straight from the amp designer's other items...
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-620452536.12.OCuxEc&id=18619042455
  
 I think keeping power cord pricing in proportion to the amp cost is the route I'll be going. Dropping 2x the amp's price on a power cord is exuberant to say the least...


----------



## lukeap69

Does anybody have experience with eBay power cords like this ?http://m.ebay.com/itm/321535078356?nav=SEARCH&varId=510424778116


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> I have a bunch of stuff in my Audio closet gathering dust from my previous reviewing days. If you read my previous posts on this subject, you would know that I don't advocate spending the big bucks needlessly. That's why I think the Gustard gear is so good- it's a budget over-achiever. The Analysis Plus Pro Power Oval retails for $100 and I bet you get quite close to the performance of their pricey cords. It's the law of diminishing returns. Some audiophiles are willing to spend a fortune for that last 2%.


 
  
 Actually, reading the impressions and opinions of you guys that have experience with 'silly money' gear is part of the reason why I'm around here; it's good to know about what's supposed to be the best gear.
 $100 is more reasonable, for an end-game ready made cord, but the cheapest that I could see, via your link, was $410!


----------



## Walderstorn

Yeah 2 much, i'll have to use a generic one.
  
 FYI i just received a call from the customs service as i told u, we have the worse customs in Europe, tax 183 $, i had to sit down, my knees are still shaking /facepalm, last time i do a non EU buy.


----------



## pearljam50000

How far is the sound from neutral? How rolle off are the highs?
I have read many impressions with the HD800 and most of them were not so positive, so I wonder what is the problem with this pairing because the H10 is obviously an excellent amp.


----------



## BassDigger

walderstorn said:


> Yeah 2 much, i'll have to use a generic one.
> 
> FYI i just received a call from the customs service as i told u, we have the worse customs in Europe, tax 183 $, i had to sit down, my knees are still shaking /facepalm, last time i do a non EU buy.


 
  
 So sorry to read that; that's really whacked the price up; you've been 'bent over a barrel'!
 But.....despite that (it's unavoidable) if the H10 is as good as most say (it's an 'if', I know), how much would you have to spend to get something comparable?


----------



## Walderstorn

700ish if i had to buy something similiar new, but i could've bought a Audio-gd C-2 from a fellow head-fier cheaper than the total cost and i would have if i had known i was going to pay so much.


----------



## BassDigger

walderstorn said:


> 700ish if i had to buy something similiar new, but i could've bought a Audio-gd C-2 from a fellow head-fier cheaper than the total cost and i would have if i had known i was going to pay so much.


 
  
 (Sorry for the continued OT)
  
 And sorry; I feel like I'm saying "There's the wall. Shouldn't you be banging your head against it?" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But, didn't you know about the import taxes, beforehand?


----------



## Walderstorn

Yes, but theres a range of values for the various taxes i got almost the highest in every category, its divided in something like this:
  
 shipping
 handling
 custom tax (import taxes+audiovisual taxes)
 custom handling (weight+internal shipping between dhl and custom department)
 iva 
 dhl
  
 It could've just went from 60ish to 180ish, i got screwed, they chose my package for almost all of the highest taxes, aint that my luck. 
  
 Ill stop the OT now, i already banged my head enough, now i'll wait for it and cry in my corner until monday, ill give my first impressions when it arrives.
  
 I do have a on topic question though, for the ones that use toslkink, i only have generic used cables, shouldnt be a problem right?


----------



## BassDigger

walderstorn said:


> ...
> 
> Ill stop the OT now, i already banged my head enough, now i'll wait for it and cry in my corner until monday, ill give my first impressions when it arrives.
> 
> I do have a on topic question though, for the ones that use toslkink, i only have generic used cables, shouldnt be a problem right?


 
  
 On topic? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I've never used toslink, although I would recommend it as probably the best way to connect your computer to your audio system (if you must).
 What I do know:
 Used cables? Not sure. I think that the condition of the cable tip is of paramount importance; they're an optic, after all.
 Cable Talk toslink were recommended by 'The Missing Link' cables, as their 'go to' optical cable. I don't know whether that was because they're genuinely top value, or if TML got a good deal with buying a load. Maybe the former.


----------



## bavinck

Ya, unfortunately I think this thread may be dead. Some of you newer guys have certainly taken this thread hostage and I am officially getting off this plane without a parachute....


----------



## Walderstorn

bavinck said:


> Ya, unfortunately I think this thread may be dead. Some of you newer guys have certainly taken this thread hostage and I am officially getting off this plane without a parachute....


 
  
 Dont worry we are using PM for shipping questions now. Feel free to help this topic get in the right lane again.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Ya, unfortunately I think this thread may be dead. Some of you newer guys have certainly taken this thread hostage and I am officially getting off this plane without a parachute....




Yeah I think its okay now. It was nice to see the comparison to the WA 6!


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello I'm getting a new Gustard X12 DAC today. Any advice on how long the recommended burn-in is? And can this be done well enough by just leaving it on or does it also need music playing during this time?
  
 Also another member @DreamKing also got a new H10 amp and is having performance issues with it sounding thin, too smooth, lacking sub-bass and soundstage. So any advice on the H10 burn-in process too? Thanks


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> Hello I'm getting a new Gustard X12 DAC today. Any advice on how long the recommended burn-in is? And can this be done well enough by just leaving it on or does it also need music playing during this time?
> 
> Also another member @DreamKing also got a new H10 amp and is having performance issues with it sounding thin, too smooth, lacking sub-bass and soundstage. So any advice on the H10 burn-in process too? Thanks


 
 You should leave the X12 on and play music through it at normal volumes continuously for the fastest burn-in.
  
 In regards to @DreamKing , I have said this multiple times already but will repeat; I wanted to sell the H10 on the second and third days. I almost put up for sale on this site; it sounded terrible. @stuartmc said, I recall, that he wanted to hang himself by the power H10 power cord. lol.
  
 Whatever your opinion is on burn-in, just run it for four days and then report back. I will eat my words if you do not come to a different conclusion. The amount of consensus on this thread regarding the exorbitant change in burn-in for this particular piece of equipment is overwhelming. I did not experience anything like this with any of my other gear. 
  
 I have no experience with the X12, but others have said it also benefits from running music. I am not skeptical of this. 
  
 YMMV of course.


----------



## DreamKing

@Liu Junyuan, that's the plan. I'm gonna run it for 3 more days. I've been A/B'ing a lot and tweaking the sound mostly right now but just end up leaving the HE-560 plugged into the Capella as the H10's sound isn't mature enough currently, IMO. 
  
@DecentLevi Something else relatively interesting, the H10 is warm at the touch compared to my Capella being cold which is surprising because I've had the Capella for months now and leave it on practically 24/7. Maybe that's an indication of the burn-in's effectiveness. There's also the considerable physical size difference.


----------



## DreamKing

Also, for the burn-in process can I just leave it on without any headphone plugged in?


----------



## olek

> Originally Posted by *Liu Junyuan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> @stuartmc said, I recall, that he wanted to hang himself by the power H10 power cord. lol.


 
  
 Hey, lets be precise here, his plan was to use interconnect cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Probably just because he did not think power cord was any worse than H10 itself those days...
  
 On a serious note, @DreamKing,
 give it 4 days. I have to admit than tiny bits of some of those traits may remain. H10 is a little on a smooth side, yes, it ain't harsh by any standards. And its sub-bass is a little on a light side (both Liu and myself are boosting it a tad). Mind you, we are talking about very small magnitude here, not real issues. No thin sound or soundstage issues noticed after burn in on my H10 (its soundstage is actually amazing).
  
 I would actually go as far as saying that there is a parallel between H10 as amplifier and HD650 as headphone. Both are smooth, but detailed, both are not fatiguing, and both tend to filter out some harshness from the music, both can not be called 100% transparent, but are not strongly colored either, both are very musical, and both perform above their price point of ~$300.
  
 And yes, YMMV.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

dreamking said:


> @Liu Junyuan
> , that's the plan. I'm gonna run it for 3 more days. I've been A/B'ing a lot and tweaking the sound mostly right now but just end up leaving the HE-560 plugged into the Capella as the H10's sound isn't mature enough currently, IMO.
> 
> @DecentLevi
> Something else relatively interesting, the H10 is warm at the touch compared to my Capella being cold which is surprising because I've had the Capella for months now and leave it on practically 24/7. Maybe that's an indication of the burn-in's effectiveness. There's also the considerable physical size difference.




Good. Yes it gets slightly warm but never hot like the Lyr or 339 I own. Not cold like the O2. I am guessing you could leave it without headphones in, but I did. 

What dac are you using btw? 

After my last post, I just plugged in my K7XX to the H10, and there was nothing lean about the bass. It was deep and taut. Very nice. Just hang in there with it. I also could not listen to it for the first three days. 

I am not sure if it just needs to be left on to heat up or whether it is actually burning in. I just say "burn-in" anyways. There has been lots of discussion of this kind of thing on the Yggy thread and DAC forums. For the Yggy I think people are claiming it doesn't wake up until around 160 hours. I would just keep the H10 on at all times for now.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> Hey, lets be precise here, his plan was to use interconnect cable :evil:
> 
> Probably just because he did not think power cord was any worse than H10 itself those days...
> 
> ...




I agree with this 100%. It is a smooth yet highly resolving amp, just as the X12 has been called smooth yet detailed. 

I have also thought of this amp as like an HD 650. Detailed yet non-fatiguing. 

If you have researched the Vioelectric V200, these descriptors are fairly close to what I hear on the H10.

Edit: I forgot to mention. I am not boosting my sub-bass with eq. There is nothing lean about this amp to my ears. It is full-bodied sound to me (like the HD 650) yet not at all slow.


----------



## DreamKing

liu junyuan said:


> Good. Yes it gets slightly warm but never hot like the Lyr or 339 I own. Not cold like the O2. I am guessing you could leave it without headphones in, but I did.
> 
> What dac are you using btw?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm using a Beresford Bushmaster MKII dac. By itself, its sound is slightly lean, some treble glare audible with bright headphones and an incredible holographic presentation but it has a fantastic organic synergy with the Capella of the same brand and my HE-560. 
  
 Alright I'm gonna keep listening to it and leave it on 24/7 with the HE-560 plugged in and a signal playing, just to be sure I give it the best chance possible.
  


olek said:


> ...
> On a serious note, @DreamKing,
> give it 4 days. I have to admit than tiny bits of some of those traits may remain. H10 is a little on a smooth side, yes, it ain't harsh by any standards. And its sub-bass is a little on a light side (both Liu and myself are boosting it a tad). Mind you, we are talking about very small magnitude here, not real issues. No thin sound or soundstage issues noticed after burn in on my H10 (its soundstage is actually amazing).


 
  
 The sub-bass thing is an issue to me currently. It restrains sense of power, IMO of course. But, again, I'll give it the best chance to see if it develops.


----------



## normanl

@Liu Junyuan
 How is K7XX compared to HD650 (and DT880-600ohm, if you've heard it)  with respect to SQ through H10?  Which hp do you personally prefer?


----------



## olek

liu junyuan said:


> Edit: I forgot to mention. I am not boosting my sub-bass with eq. There is nothing lean about this amp to my ears. It is full-bodied sound to me (like the HD 650) yet not at all slow.


 
  
  
 I am sorry, Liu, my bad. My memory suggested that it was you mentioning  boosting sub-bass a smidge, but it was @bavinck, it is just he quoted you right next to mentioning this fact, and my memory played a trick on me.


----------



## olek

dreamking said:


> The sub-bass thing is an issue to me currently. It restrains sense of power, IMO of course. But, again, I'll give it the best chance to see if it develops.


 
  
 There were quite a few of us with same impression during break-in time, but it really improves after couple days. H10 will never have exaggerated bass, but it is adequate, deep, and well textured, while in my opinion is a little restrained, but it may be just my headphones, not amp (none of my phones are known to have great sub-bass).


----------



## DreamKing

@olek I'm not speaking of exaggerated bass either. I'm speaking of that natural sense of aura and power sub-bass provides. This is vs the Capella. I don't know what you're comparing it to but this what I'm using as a frame of reference. To my ears, this is improving on the H10 though vs what I heard out of the box.


----------



## olek

OK, really eager to hear from you in couple days, curious how it will work out for you. Burn-in on H10 is truly extreme, I did not like it at all first couple days; although there were couple reports of no noticeable burn-in, but those were from people liking it from get-go.


----------



## xevman

olek said:


> There were quite a few of us with same impression during break-in time, but it really improves after couple days. H10 will never have exaggerated bass, but it is adequate, deep, and well textured, while in my opinion is a little restrained, but it may be just my headphones, not amp (none of my phones are known to have great sub-bass).


 
 Well I find that the sub bass on this amp is fine on par with other amps in terms of quantity i've used although the bass is a lot more controlled and tight then the previous amps i've tried. This is with the Denon Ah D2000 a headphone with great sub bass YMMV.


----------



## normanl

olek said:


> OK, really eager to hear from you in couple days, curious how it will work out for you. Burn-in on H10 is truly extreme, I did not like it at all first couple days; although there were couple reports of no noticeable burn-in, but those were from people liking it from get-go.


 
 I have not noticed any change of SQ of H10 after 3 week's use. H10 sounds excellent to me from the first day on, very detailed, resolving, neutral and balanced, i.e. no burn-in effect occurs to me. Probably, it also depends on the DAC used and quality of source music. The DAC I use with H10 is Anedio D2 and most of the music files I listen are of hi-resolution, 24-96k and 24-192K.


----------



## DecentLevi

@normanl, speaking from direct experience with the DT 880 & HD 650 and some on the K7XX, albeit on other amps:
  
 DT 880 is more mid-centric and slightly more accurate treble extension
  
 Both the K7XX and HD 650 have full bodied bass, moreso than the 880's. However the 650 has a very slight and hard to notice mid-bass hump and the bass of the K7 bleeds slightly into the mids.
  
 The 650 does soundstage and instrument separation like no other headphone I've tried before, with exception of possibly just the HD 700 and 800.
  
 I'm not sure how well the K7 scales with higher source chains, but 880 scales fantastically while the 650 scales phenomenally.
  
 Formerly I had recommended you to get the DT 880 250 ohm version, as this would be driven much better with the H10 than the 600 ohm and would have much better versatility with other amps. Also you can buy the DT 880 250 ohm on Amazon for less than the 600 ohm version on Massdrop.
  
 The best way to decide is to try them for yourself, so please click here to check out upcoming head-fi meets; at least 2 of those 3 are sure to be at most meet's. Plus you're sure to meet a lot of Head-fi friends with similar interests!


----------



## normanl

decentlevi said:


> @normanl, speaking from direct experience with the DT 880 & HD 650 and some on the K7XX, albeit on other amps:
> 
> DT 880 is more mid-centric and slightly more accurate treble extension
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for your very useful input. I like the hp as neutral as possible, i.e. it'll reproduce the music as close to source as possible. Which one among DT880-600/250, and K7XX is the most neutral with widest freq. resp.? I use Gustard H10 hp amp which has power more than enough to drive 600 ohm hp. I mainly listen to classical music, particularly piano and organ music. ( I have HD600 which I assume to be very similar to HD650).


----------



## DecentLevi

Which of these 3 are the most neutral is a tough question to answer: the 880's have slightly colored mids, the 650s seem to have a warm sound overall, as well as the K7XX, so none are really flat. Some headphones with a flat freq. response are Fishcer FA-003 and Beyer. DT 150 but IMO you want a little coloring to the sound, otherwise it may sound so dull it's unlistenable to some. I've owned HD 600 and 650, and preferred the 650 for it's much more lifelike bass and relaxed treble. For more on this I would recommend posting on the HD 650 or 880 thread, there's also one for the K7XX  and one for comparison - to prevent either of us from being moderated and to get better advice there.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Well, I will say this and it will be on topic. The synergy between the K7XX and AKGs generally is better with th H10 than the higher impedance headphones, which will thrive on voltage rather than current. My Sennheisers sound great on the H10--really nice--but low impedance planars and AKGs are like a match made in heaven with the H10. 

Since I have not tried the Beyer on this, I would only say I suspect it would make a great synergy due to the opposite signatures of amp and headphone.

Beyers have a slightly recessed mid and a slightly accentuates treble at 10 kHz. They are probably the most "neutral" of the three whereas the Sennheiser HD600 is the most "natural."


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> Ya, unfortunately I think this thread may be dead. Some of you newer guys have certainly taken this thread hostage and I am officially getting off this plane without a parachute....


 
  
 I'm not sure if I'm one of the 'offenders'. Well, I guess I am. Maybe we think differently. I know that it is self-indulgent for posters to discuss their own OT concerns, but I also think that it adds to the conversation, to some extent; after all, it would make each thread very confined and monotonic if we were to stick purely to the topic (and then you'll have to define _exactly_ what the topic is!).
 Yes, certainly, if the thread gets totally hijacked, as this thread has regarding dacs and shipping issues, it's a turn off; it's frustrating when you follow a thread and post after post is about something that is of little interest, and could/should be discussed elsewhere. But I think that an occasional few OT posts, particularly when nothing else is being discussed, is ok.
  
 My little discussion about someone's custom duties was perhaps continuing one of these unwanted tangents, but we kept it short. And besides, we were the only posters at the time; I think that everyone else was in bed.
  
 So, please don't leave us bavinck; your contribution and opinions are valued, around here. I don't think that I would be alone in saying that.


----------



## auvgeek

I have the DT-150 and the DT-880 250 ohm (as well as the HE-560 and LCD-2F), and I definitely recommend planars with the H10. Honestly, if I weren't planning to get a planar, I would definitely consider an OTL tube amp instead (Bottlehead Crack, Garage 1217 Project Ember II, etc). But I'd rather have the HE-560 than both the DT 880 and HD 650. The HE-560 is very natural, IMO. It's really a fantastic can, and it pairs very well with the H10. Just my $0.02.
  
 I'd love to read a comparison of the H10 and Crack+speedball on high-impedance, dynamic headphones, specifically the DT-880 and HD 600/650.


----------



## BassDigger

dreamking said:


> ...
> 
> The *sub-bass* thing is an issue to me currently. It *restrains sense of power*, IMO of course. But, again, I'll give it the best chance to see if it develops.


 


olek said:


> There were quite a few of us with same impression during break-in time, but it really improves after couple days. H10 will never have exaggerated bass, but it is adequate, deep, and well textured, while in my opinion is* a little restrained*, but it may be just my headphones, not amp (none of my phones are known to have great sub-bass).


 


dreamking said:


> @olek I'm not speaking of exaggerated bass either. I'm* speaking of that natural sense of aura and power sub-bass provides*. This is vs the Capella. I don't know what you're comparing it to but this what I'm using as a frame of reference. To my ears, this is improving on the H10 though vs what I heard out of the box.


 


xevman said:


> Well I find that the sub bass on this amp is fine on par with other amps in terms of quantity i've used although the bass is a lot more controlled and tight then the previous amps i've tried. This is with the Denon Ah D2000 a headphone with great sub bass YMMV.


 
  
 I'm not sure that the d2000 has great sub-bass; slightly _more_ than some, perhaps. But it also has other issues, when compared to planars. But, BUT.... that's on my current amp. My opinion may have more relevance when I've got myself a H10.
  
 Speaking of the H10 and sub-bass; I'm reading some concerns here, and also that some are using EQ to bolster the bass (not a solution that I'd use).
  
 I can see that '*the jury is out*', until some proper run-in, burn-in (and even warm-up) time has been accrued.
 But, as bass performance is so important to me, I'd like to know how a, fully burnt-in, H10 compares.
  
 I'm talking about the very lowest notes, the notes that are felt as much as heard (as low as headphones can go, anyway); can anyone make comparisons to some respectable competitors? I'm talking $6-700+ standalone desktop amps; compared to those, does the H10 do a good job with the deep bass? Does it give it proper extension, power and resolution? Is there proper weight and substance that underpins, or gives 'menace' when called for? Does the H10 make it easy to follow the tune of the deepest bass, where present?
  
 And, has anyone noticed a profound change, in bass performance, later on in the burn-in?
  
 (Sorry if I'm being all 'needy'!)


----------



## DecentLevi

While I'm not yet an authority on the H10, some other amps I've known about that are worth considering for possible weightier bass are Cavalli Liquid Glass, Beresford Capella (which has a physical knob for bass, treble & soundstage), and by tube-rolling (swapping various tubes to add different sound signatures) with tube amps such as Project Ember. You can find some of those those other threads from a search on Head-Fi, and I'm sure others here can respond too. Another possible link here


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> While I'm not yet an authority on the H10, some other amps I've known about that are worth considering for possible weightier bass are Cavalli Liquid Glass, Beresford Capella (which has a physical knob for bass, treble & soundstage), and by tube-rolling (swapping various tubes to add different sound signatures) with tube amps such as Project Ember. You can find some of those those other threads from a search on Head-Fi, and I'm sure others here can respond too. Another possible link here


----------



## BassDigger

decentlevi said:


> While I'm not yet an authority on the H10, some other amps I've known about that are worth considering for possible weightier bass are Cavalli Liquid Glass, Beresford Capella (which has a physical knob for bass, treble & soundstage), and by tube-rolling (swapping various tubes to add different sound signatures) with tube amps such as Project Ember. You can find some of those those other threads from a search on Head-Fi, and I'm sure others here can respond too. Another possible link here


 
  
 Thanks.
 The Cavalli isn't really comparable price-wise. But I'm still interested in how the H10 compares to it, and any good amp, sound-wise. Have you made this comparison?
  
 I'm not interested in anything with 'tone' controls, but tube-rolling may well be something I may do. My dac has a tube output stage, but I've got other things to try first; I'm told the fitted tubes are pretty good. However, I think that my ultimate, end-game headphone amp would be a tube design. But that's for the future. I'm just trying to put together a simplistic, uncomplicated system, with inherently the 'right' sound signature.


----------



## xevman

How well do the k702s synergies with this? I assume well because this amp swings the current they need (as theyre really inefficient) Also i can get the k712 for the same price not sure what the difference between the headphones is.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

xevman said:


> How well do the k702s synergies with this? I assume well because this amp swings the current they need (as theyre really inefficient) Also i can get the k712 for the same price not sure what the difference between the headphones is.




Very well. AKGs are difficult to drive but they thrive on amps that push high current, just like planars. An amp excellent for planars is also excellent for AKGs K7 line--the H10 is one outstanding offering here.


----------



## xevman

liu junyuan said:


> Very well. AKGs are difficult to drive but they thrive on amps that push high current, just like planars. An amp excellent for planars is also excellent for AKGs K7 line--the H10 is one outstanding offering here.


 
 definitely keen to try them out on this amp, though which one k702 or k712 there isnt much price difference between the two where i live.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

xevman said:


> definitely keen to try them out on this amp, though which one k702 or k712 there isnt much price difference between the two where i live.
> [/quote
> 
> That depends on your preferences. They are very different headphones indeed.


----------



## Koolpep

liu junyuan said:


> Very well. AKGs are difficult to drive but they thrive on amps that push high current, just like planars. An amp excellent for planars is also excellent for AKGs K7 line--the H10 is one outstanding offering here.




Great to hear. I had a Q701 once and sold it but have a K7XX coming in. So let's see what the H10 does to it. 

So far I owned 3 AKG and wanted to like them but it never happened. Maybe my amplification wasn't up to snuff. Let's see if the K7XX can turn the tide.
Cheers,
K


----------



## xevman

koolpep said:


> Great to hear. I had a Q701 once and sold it but have a K7XX coming in. So let's see what the H10 does to it.
> 
> So far I owned 3 AKG and wanted to like them but it never happened. Maybe my amplification wasn't up to snuff. Let's see if the K7XX can turn the tide.
> Cheers,
> K


 
 what amps did you pair them with the akg 701/702 series of headphones are pretty picky


----------



## Koolpep

xevman said:


> what amps did you pair them with the akg 701/702 series of headphones are pretty picky


 
  
  
 Back then it was Nuforce iconHDP, Schiit Asgard, Schiit Valhalla, Audioengine D3.
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## Liu Junyuan

The H10 flirts with AKGs and carries them successfully to bed regardless of time or place. Be prepared for a perfect synergy!


----------



## Hibuckhobby

I posted this in the forum, but decided to add it to this thread, since questions about bass performance
 and sound quality have been raised.
  
  I just took the plunge and bought a Decware Taboo that should be here next week.
 The pending new kid on the block made me think about who might have to go down
 the road, so I pulled out the HE500's with canare cabling and hooked my Boulder Audio
 modded Squeezebox Touch directly to the amps with some short AQ interconnects.
  
 Not much of a headbanger, so I listened first to Eric Claption and BB King "Riding with the King"
 It's not the most revealing setup, but has the ability to demonstrate difference between the amps
 in question.  Using RCA NOS long plates in the Lyr...the bass was a bit thicker, but not as well textured.
 On "keys to the highway" King plays his 335 unamplified and close-miked.  With a revealing headphone,
 the fingering on the fretboard should be quite easy to hear...calloused finger tips on wood. On the Lyr
 I had to run the volume a bit higher to pull that level of detail out of the mix and at times it was a bit
 louder than I cared to listen.
  
 Listening to Eva Cassidy sing "People get ready"  if you turned up the Lyr to where her guitar sounded
 crisp and clear, then her voice would grate somewhat on the higher notes.  On the H10, Kings fingering
 came through loud and clear without the volume becoming an issue.  The same was true with Eva Cassidy.
 The Lyr seems to have a slight emphasis in the upper mids/lower treble with the HE500.  That emphasis was
 not nearly as pronounced on the H10.  Bottom line, there are times where the H10 is both more detailed
 AND smoother than the Lyr.  This is not to criticize the Lyr...at the price point (mine was used at 275) and
 the ability to roll tubes and tweek the voicing, it brings a great deal of bang for the buck.
  
 Much to my surprise, my H10 (also bought for about 275 used) brought more to the table sonically than the
 Lyr.  The bass was tauter, the midrange both sweet and detailed and highs (like Goldilocks) were for me...just right.
 The H10 also works far better with higher sensitivity cans due to a lower noise floor.  Any body want a
 Lyr with three sets of driver tubes?
  
 YMMV,
 Hibuck....


----------



## Liu Junyuan

hibuckhobby said:


> I posted this in the forum, but decided to add it to this thread, since questions about bass performance
> and sound quality have been raised.
> 
> 
> ...




Nicely written post. I have the Lyr and love it for what it does, but the H10 is superior in my eyes, which concretely means the H10 is now on my desktop instead of my Lyr, which is beside my reading chair.


----------



## bavinck

bassdigger said:


> I'm not sure if I'm one of the 'offenders'. Well, I guess I am. Maybe we think differently. I know that it is self-indulgent for posters to discuss their own OT concerns, but I also think that it adds to the conversation, to some extent; after all, it would make each thread very confined and monotonic if we were to stick purely to the topic (and then you'll have to define _exactly_ what the topic is!).
> Yes, certainly, if the thread gets totally hijacked, as this thread has regarding dacs and shipping issues, it's a turn off; it's frustrating when you follow a thread and post after post is about something that is of little interest, and could/should be discussed elsewhere. But I think that an occasional few OT posts, particularly when nothing else is being discussed, is ok.
> 
> My little discussion about someone's custom duties was perhaps continuing one of these unwanted tangents, but we kept it short. And besides, we were the only posters at the time; I think that everyone else was in bed.
> ...




The discussion recently (by you and others) has been very interesting and enjoyable. I was having an off day yesterday and apologize for my snarky remarks.


----------



## bavinck

bassdigger said:


> I'm not sure that the d2000 has great sub-bass; slightly _more_ than some, perhaps. But it also has other issues, when compared to planars. But, BUT.... that's on my current amp. My opinion may have more relevance when I've got myself a H10.
> 
> Speaking of the H10 and sub-bass; I'm reading some concerns here, and also that some are using EQ to bolster the bass (not a solution that I'd use).
> 
> ...



For me, the subbass just kept getting better through burn in. I think the h10 has a proper amount of good subbass, texture and detail. I have recently begun to add just a bit of eq in the lowest frequencies as I think the he500s drop off too much there for my tastes. I can hear and feel rich, deep, textured bass all the way down with my 500/h10 combo and am really happy. Long term I want to go audeze, but this works great for now. I do not think the h10 is bass weak at all.


----------



## Koolpep

liu junyuan said:


> The H10 flirts with AKGs and carries them successfully to bed regardless of time or place. Be prepared for a perfect synergy!




Sweet.

Thanks a lot. 
K


----------



## bavinck

Curious of noise floor I switched my gain settings to farthest left switch (-12??) to try my iems. No noise at all. However, they felt very bass weak to me. Using my he500s I am getting very very weak bass with the -12 gain compared to +12 setting I normally use. Anyone else experience this?


----------



## Koolpep

liu junyuan said:


> Nicely written post. I have the Lyr and love it for what it does, but the H10 is superior in my eyes, which concretely means the H10 is now on my desktop instead of my Lyr, which is beside my reading chair.




Same here. Had to choose between Lyr2 and H10. The H10 sounded better to me. I couldn't explain why but it was quite a lot of difference in likeyness 

The Lyr2 is an amazing amp and I love Schiit and their amazing bang for buck products, but this fight went to the H10.

Cheers,
K


----------



## Liu Junyuan

koolpep said:


> Same here. Had to choose between Lyr2 and H10. The H10 sounded better to me. I couldn't explain why but it was quite a lot of difference in likeyness
> 
> The Lyr2 is an amazing amp and I love Schiit and their amazing bang for buck products, but this fight went to the H10.
> 
> ...




Honestly the Gustard is just better.


----------



## lukeap69

I thought before that H10 was better as well. Only after using them for some time I realised one is not exactly better than the other. There are songs I think Lyr is better, and some is for H10. Rock for example,  thought the Lyr 2 give more energy and slam.
  
 I've played a bit this past few days; I used my Rok as preamp to my Lyr 2. The Lyr 2 sounded like a different amp suddenly (to my ears.) The highs became smoother but keeping the slam at the bottom end. Oh the fun of mixing and matching...


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> For me, the subbass just kept getting better through burn in. I think the h10 has a proper amount of good subbass, texture and detail. I have recently begun to add just a bit of eq in the lowest frequencies as I think the he500s drop off too much there for my tastes. I can hear and feel rich, deep, textured bass all the way down with my 500/h10 combo and am really happy. Long term I want to go audeze, but this works great for now. I do not think the h10 is bass weak at all.


 
  
 I missed the he500; I went straight from he400 to lcd2f. With my A1 clone the he400 was just too bass light. There just wasn't any weight, warmth or power to the bass; it was all punch and texture. I think that it could have been lack of power, from my amp. I guess I'll never know.
 So maybe I would have upgraded to the he500, had I owned the H10; the he400 is fine, but in addition to the lack of bass I found that the treble was a bit ringy, and there was a kind of screechy upper mid. I understand that the he500 is much better, especially after a little modding. Although, as you've found, the 500 bass rolls off a bit.
  
 These considerations helped me to 'take the plunge' and just get the lcd2. I understood that the lcd2 bass and mids are unsurpassed, and the treble is on the smooth side of neutral, which some find more natural. I definitely didn't want 'brightness'!
  
 Well now that I've got them, I can imagine the newer lcd2f fazor edition must be more like the he500; they're a little rolled off, down low. They have the warmth and fullness that the he400 was missing, but that could be 'cos these Audeze phones have twice the impedance. Also the mids and treble are so realistic that I frequently find myself looking around to see what's going on! But the bass misses the very lowest notes.
 So, it's slightly disappointing to read that you need to EQ, with the H10 connected. Maybe the H10 will help with the lcd2f's bass, maybe it won't. I'm just gonna have to find out for myself.
  
 I guess that until we can find an amp that has so much low down grunt, if forces the phones to max out their deepest bass, you'll have to carry on EQing, and I'll have to carry on.....just being happy with whatever I've got.


----------



## bavinck

I don't really want to eq, just think it solves my issue with my current setup. I have come to realize I am a bit of a basshead I thought the LCD2 fazor had a flat fr all the way down? You telling me it rolls off in subbass like the he500?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I have no idea why you people need to eq. 
honestly, are you looking for exaggerated sub-bass?


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> I have no idea why you people need to eq.
> honestly, are you looking for exaggerated sub-bass?


 
 I guess so lol. Though, if you look at the frequency response graph for the he500, it does have a roll off of subbass that I would say is not natural or neutral.


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> ... I have come to realize I am a bit of a basshead I thought the LCD2 fazor had a flat fr all the way down? You telling me it rolls off in subbass like the he500?




I reckon so. It seems that they gave up some bass to improve the mids and treble. There're graphs showing this. 
I guess it must have worked; they're in a completely different league to the he400; they have very little 'character' for a transducer! I just hope that the H10 can get some more bass extension out of them.

EDIT: I always need to remind myself that I'm used to PMC type transmission line speaker bass; headphones ain't gonna do that! But some have a go.


----------



## DreamKing

bavinck said:


> Curious of noise floor I switched my gain settings to farthest left switch (-12??) to try my iems. No noise at all. However, they felt very bass weak to me. Using my he500s I am getting very very weak bass with the -12 gain compared to +12 setting I normally use. Anyone else experience this?


 
  
 I agree with this right now. +6 or +12 gives me that rawness I wanted. It wasn't like this out of the box. I actually preferred all the switches down then, sounded more grounded. Now it's the opposite, it's like I'm going out of my mind.
  
  
 48 hours in, the H10 is sounding much better to my ears. Less and less 'ethereal' and more like real people, instruments, 'transparent'. Presentation is more etched in stone, I'm not bothered by the soundstage anymore as people are living and breathing in it now. Still got at least halfway more to go...


----------



## auvgeek

I'm surprised people can hear a difference in the gain settings. I don't think I can. And I don't see how you guys can handle the volume at +12 gain. Even with the HE-560, I have to turn the volume on my music player down to keep the volume knob around 8 o'clock at +6 dB gain.
  
 PS. I (and others) thought it sounded a little worse on the second and third day than it did right out of the box, but then it really bloomed around 100 hrs. Don't get discouraged if it sounds worse at some point.


----------



## bavinck

The bass difference between - 12 gain and +12 gain for me is very obvious. I have only used the h10 in +6 and +12, I wonder if it is showing full bass due to burn in?? 

I also hardly notice any channel imbalance at all at low volumes with the h10.


----------



## blasjw

Finally completed my Gustard stack.  Now I just need some good planar magnetics to go with it.  I was thinking about the Fostex TH500RP but I don't hear much about it.  Would I be better off with something from Oppo, Audeze, or Hifiman?


----------



## DreamKing

To be fair, I'm running a preamp at 12-3 o'clock before the H10 which is at 1 o'clock. 


auvgeek said:


> Spoiler: ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## stuartmc

blasjw said:


> Finally completed my Gustard stack.  Now I just need some good planar magnetics to go with it.  I was thinking about the Fostex TH500RP but I don't hear much about it.  Would I be better off with something from Oppo, Audeze, or Hifiman?


 
 Hey, I know that stack, lol.  The only thing different for me these days is a new USB interface that I'm comparing to the U12. I got the Tanly Audio USB-DDC. It's more than 3X the cost of the U12, but it has a completely isolated and filtered power supply and the Crystek crystals.  I'm still amazed at how much good sound you get out of the U12 for $150.   
  
 My advice for a good headphone pairing is definitely Hifiman.  If you can't swing the magnificent HE560, get the HE400i.  I've had both and listened to them with the same stack.  They sing with the Gustard gear and the HE400i is an incredible bargain. It gets you 90% of the 560 at less than half the price.


----------



## olek

auvgeek said:


> I'd love to read a comparison of the H10 and Crack+speedball on high-impedance, dynamic headphones, specifically the DT-880 and HD 600/650.


 
  
 Be careful what you wish for, @auvgeek.
 I was away from this forum only for a little more than a day, to come back to 4 new pages of great discussion.
 And you know why I was away? Was busy building Crack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 After about 14 hours of work, it is done, and functioning, although of course I could not wait for wooden case to be done, it is still gluing up with masking tape all over it, unfinished, but that does not affect sound, right?
 I could not even wait long enough to put away soldering iron and tools, and have been listening non-stop for last 2-3 hours.
  
 No Speedball yet, got the parts, but want to experience stock Crack as it is for quite some time before doing anything to it. Stock everything, tubes, pots, capacitors etc.
  
 Crack with HD650 is truly special. Remember me complaining about sub-bass of H10+HD650? No more complaining. Listening to Crack+HD650, tuba in Sibelius symphony No 2 in D major sounds the way it did in concert hall, deep and reverberant. Picked up couple deep bass notes in Kat Edmonson song that I did not even knew were there. Funny thing is that volume-vise it is not much more than what H10 produces, (it is tiniest bit more) but it is of better quality, deeper, making it very satisfactory even that it is not (much) louder.
 Boosted sub-bass on H10 still does not get to the same levels of realism, its volume is just compensating for lack of some quality.
 Now, H10 does great work with bass above sub-bass, texture and detail in it is to die for, and Crack does not compare. But looking at overall bass package, Crack wins, it is just deep and very realistic.
  
 Highs are, no - they WERE - stronger a bit on Crack. Initially they were downright on harsh side. Now, either tubes are burning in, or tubes have just warmed up, or it is my ears that are warming up to this sound (unlikely), but I do not find Crack highs harsh or noticeably brighter any longer.
  
 Soundstage of Crack+HD650 is great, different but as good as H10 presentation (for me), and that means a lot, since I really like it on H10. Now, switching to Crack+DT250, soundstage collapsed so bad, that I just stopped that experiment.
  
 Somehow Crack really reminds me of Lyr that I have heard couple months ago at head-fi meet. There was something about its sound that excited me. And Crack got that something.
  
 Overall, both H10 and Crack are really fine amps with different sound profiles, but I think that I have found new mistress. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Please, treat my words with a huge grain of salt. I am very excited about this new toy, and that is likely to skew my opinion.
  
 Another thought. I may be more sensitive to bass quality than most, since my hearing damage prevents me from hearing high frequencies well, and brain is likely to attempt to compensate for that by paying more attention to low frequencies (in a way similar to how blind people develop amazing touch sensitivity).
  
 Oh, one thing I am not quite thrilled about is how hot Crack gets. Its top plate can work as decent food warmer - it is too hot to keep my hand there for prolonged time. And I could fry bacon and eggs on those tubes. Even transformer gets too hot to touch. Not summer friendly equipment.


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh I see Olek, you're comparing a tube amp to a solid state amp. It's a bit like apples & oranges, but then it's all about whichever one we like the best. I would recon that once you put the wooden casing on the Crack, the sound signature may change so your final impressions compared to the H10 may still change.
  
 Anyway guys, I just got and set up my new Gustard X12 DAC yesterday - and basically what I can say is that the difference is extraordinary! This was my successor to the Magni 1 and while it wasn't yet a direct comparison, I could tell there was a night & day difference! Mainly it is that although I formerly can attest to not hear anything 'missing' with my other DAC, it seems like there are more micro-details. And the good details rather than those that are annoying like grainy-ness or sibilance. Basically everything was more full bodied, organic/lifelike, and the bass frequencies were weightier with more authority - and I mean that too in a good way. To me, it sounded good right away without burn-in time.
  
 I will admit however that I've only tried a small handful of other DACs, and I later this year plan to do a thorough comparison between the X12 and the new Geek Out v2 from LH labs. Yes I know I already have a phenomenal amp, but this new G.O. has been reviewed positively by some of the most trusted head-fi 'kings' and it's really too good (and small / cheap) to not at least try. But who knows maybe the X12 will still reign supreme! This was done using a Wyrd into the DAC, and a Magni 1 amp (which I plan to upgrade soon also) + HD 650. But I gotta tell you - this is the closest thing I've ever heard in my home setup to the sounds coming out of the hi-end setups at a headphone meet!


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> ...
> 
> Crack with HD650 is truly special. Remember me complaining about sub-bass of H10+HD650? No more complaining. Listening to *Crack+HD650, tuba in Sibelius symphony No 2 in D major sounds the way it did in concert hall, deep and reverberant. Picked up couple deep bass notes in Kat Edmonson song that I did not even knew were there.* Funny thing is that volume-vise it is not much more than what H10 produces, (it is tiniest bit more) but it is of *better quality, deeper, making it very satisfactory even that it is not (much) louder.*
> *Boosted sub-bass on H10 still does not get to the same levels of realism*, its volume is just compensating for lack of some quality.
> ...


 
  
 An interesting comparison. I'm glad that you're happy with your new 'baby'!
  
 But, if you've read my previous posts, you'll know that I won't be too happy to read about the H10 lacking sub-bass.
 But..., as I understand it, the Crack _should _be a better partner for the HD650, than the H10; it's an OTL amp, and the 650 is a relatively high impedance can; not an ideal partner for the H10, which is more optimal for low imp. planar headphones.
  
 I was going to ask you if you've got some planars to compare, but I think that it may be a pointless exercise (although you could prove my point); the Crack is better for Senns and the Gustard is better for planars.
 Additionally, I've read that the hd650 doesn't really do the 'deep stuff', when compared to a planar headphone....??
 Just some thoughts to ponder. Please enjoy your new 'toy'.


----------



## auvgeek

@olek: Thanks for the excellent comparison! I was hoping my comment would spur a comparison, so I got exactly what I wished for! I had a feeling the Crack would work better for high impedance dynamic headphones. I look forward to additional updates as you finish the speedball, etc.
  
 I'm thinking I'll probably upgrade to the H20 when it comes out (or a different balanced amp) for planars and maybe a Crack+speedball for dynamic cans (when it goes on sale again next April). I am curious though, why the beyer DT-250 was a bust...I have the DT-150, and I'm hoping it will have good synergy with the Crack.


----------



## olek

No planars in this house, sorry, can't compare.
  
 And while I currently prefer Crack, I can not say that it is 'better' than H10, it is just different, and I like that difference now.
 Crack has very natural sub-bass going for it with fairly 'organic' sound, and H10 has amazing detail/texture going for it with a slightly 'relaxed' sound.
  
 Not sure how long I can hold off before installing Speedball  Could it be that it would give me that organic sound and sub-bass with more detail/texture? That would be sweet...


----------



## BassDigger

As DecentLevi said, maybe mostly what you are explaining are the differences between tube and SS, but with the exception of your remarks about sub-bass; SS (in loudspeakers anyway) usually performs better in this area.
 I can't help wondering, keeping in mind reported differences in headphone bass characteristics, you may be describing something more akin to what I would just call the bass, rather than _sub_-bass; valves are known to have 'nice' characteristics in this aspect.
 Anyway, whatever it is, it's good that you're liking it!


----------



## lukeap69

^This.
  
 SQ is very subjective thing. Even my Lyr 2 has more bass quantity than the H10 IMO using my cans. The timbre of the H10 slaughters the Lyr again IMO. YMMV.
 I heard any good things re HD650 and Crack pairing. Perhaps @Koolpep can provide some insight as well.
  
 Do we hear the same thing? Perhaps not. When @Koolpep auditioned Lyr 2 and (now his) H10, he said that he didn't noticed the boomy bass on the Lyr compared to the H10. For me, it was very much apparent. 
  
 I think the difference between the Crack and the H10 can be compared with the difference between Glenn's OTL amp and the Rok.
 When I've auditioned Glenn's OTL amp with my HD800, the slam and attack was very beautiful. Soundstage was holographic. The highs though was not as smooth as my Rok's. TBH, I don't think one is better than the other. Just different. Which one do you like is, I believe, varied from person to person. 
  
 If you like acoustic music, I rate the H10 very high to satisfy many as it did to me. Almost on par with my Rok. Enjoy this wonderful amp!


----------



## Lohb

Couple of Muse 02's dropped in for lighter bass cans should balance things out....relatively expensive opamps though. I saw them mentioned waaay back in the thread.


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> *I don't really want to eq, just think it solves my issue* with my current setup. I have come to realize* I am a bit of a basshead* I thought the LCD2 fazor had a flat fr all the way down? You telling me it rolls off in subbass like the he500?


 
 Quote:


liu junyuan said:


> I have no idea why *you people* need to eq.
> honestly,* are you looking for exaggerated sub-bass*?


 


bavinck said:


> I guess so lol. Though, if you look at the* frequency response graph for the he500, *it does have a* roll off of subbass *that I would say is *not natural* or neutral.


 
  





 "You people"!!! So it's 'us and them', is it?
 Bavinck, why don't you just get some 'Beats, by Dr Dre' and be done with it? _(Don't forget, they're by Dr Dre! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_
  
 Ok, joking aside. I think that I can empathise with the 'controlled' use of eq; if I had an eq in my audio chain, I would most likely use it, too. But I would have to buy one and install it between source and amp, and that would maybe have more negative implications, for the sq, than positive. I shun any 'unnecessary' components; they're just more circuitry to spoil the musical goodness. 
  
 But the fact that some people (_you_ people 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  crave more bass, seems to perplex others.
 I think that most find bass somewhat satisfying; some put bass performance above the rest of the audio spectrum, knowingly. Maybe we (sorry, _you_) can call them 'bassheads'.
 But what about those who crave exaggerated bass, and have no concern (or idea) about the the rest of the music? What about those who just like lots of 'bass' noise, and don't even realise that bass can be tuneful? Do we label them all the same?
 I want ALL the bass to be present, in the same manner as the rest of the spectrum. Does that make me a basshead?
  
 For me, the crux of the problem/misunderstanding seems to be the fact that 'real' bass is difficult to reproduce for both headphones and speakers. Very few, even very big and very expensive, speakers (and subs) are able to reproduce quality bass, flat down past 50hz, never mind 30hz. Unfortunately (and for different reasons), it's the same for headphones.
  
 I think that some are used to this, and have never known much different; perhaps they've always had 'sensible', stand-mounted speakers and open headphones, and have never got hooked by what's going on in the 'lower reaches'. Or when they've been exposed to deep bass, on a domestic system, it was uncontrolled and uninspiring. They may shun it, and not understand the attraction. But some of us know what we're missing, and miss it, we do! So, trying to make up for a specific shortcoming is why some people eq. Bass is something that's quite easy to isolate and augment, so if you've already got an eq in the audio pathway, you might as well use it.
  
_(I'll run and take cover now _



_ )_


----------



## Walderstorn

To be honest im kind of relieved that the bass/subbass issues seems to be the only here, since im not at all a bass head and i dont like any emphasys on the bass, it really seems to be the h10really goes hand in hand with my taste, hope that will be the case anyway.


----------



## bavinck

I think the bass on the H10 is exceptional. I do not eq to change that. I think my headphones lack a bit of _subbass_ which I am eqing a _little bit_ to better match the frequency response I think is proper (LCD2ish). The H10 is excellent in bass and subbass imo, no problems there. If there was a problem with the subbass in the H10 my foobar eq would not work to solve this issue for me.


----------



## chongky

bassdigger said:


> as I understand it, the Crack _should _be a better partner for the HD650, than the H10; it's an OTL amp, and the 650 is a relatively high impedance can; not an ideal partner for the H10, which is more optimal for low imp. planar headphones.
> 
> the Crack is better for Senns and the Gustard is better for planars.
> 
> Additionally, I've read that the hd650 doesn't really do the 'deep stuff', when compared to a planar headphone....??


 
  Oh dear


----------



## GioF71

blasjw said:


> Finally completed my Gustard stack.  Now I just need some good planar magnetics to go with it.  I was thinking about the Fostex TH500RP but I don't hear much about it.  Would I be better off with something from Oppo, Audeze, or Hifiman?


 
  
  
  
 Hello there, nice stack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 eheh
 May I ask why you are using the AES connection? Isn't the HDMI (I2S over HDMI) the best connection for this stack?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## blasjw

giof71 said:


> Hello there, nice stack
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Good question, I haven't tried that yet.  Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## auvgeek

stuartmc said:


> Hey, I know that stack, lol.  The only thing different for me these days is a new USB interface that I'm comparing to the U12. I got the Tanly Audio USB-DDC. It's more than 3X the cost of the U12, but it has a completely isolated and filtered power supply and the Crystek crystals.  I'm still amazed at how much good sound you get out of the U12 for $150.


 
 I'm holding my breath for the Tanly review with comparison to the U12. Do you also have the MX-U8?
  
 Maybe we should take this discussion to a different thread, though...


----------



## olek

bassdigger said:


> I can't help wondering, keeping in mind reported differences in headphone bass characteristics, you may be describing something more akin to what I would just call the bass, rather than _sub_-bass; valves are known to have 'nice' characteristics in this aspect.
> Anyway, whatever it is, it's good that you're liking it!


 
 You may be right, describing sound in a tough exercise.
  
 Here, lets try to be practical. Sorry for lossy compressed sound, but there are no flacs on youtube.
  
  
 Go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPd9znWgGLk
 Skip to 37:20. Hear that constantly repeating in background sound of tuba? It is actually fairly audible on both Crack and H10, but with Crack it sounds deeper, with rumble, and with H10 it sounds a little artificial, with low rumble cut off. On my favorite recording difference is actually larger.
 Different recording, same thing at 37:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Md3zH2Mvs
  
 Here, intro to No 2 displays same effect - that beat goes deep, deeper than my H10 can reach: http://blog.jamaudio.com/7-best-songs-testing-speakers-headphones-2/
  
 Cannons at 14:10 https://youtu.be/VbxgYlcNxE8
  
 Really good example - gun battle at 12:50 https://youtu.be/WXZVI2_8GJ4
  
 Pictures at the exhibition, 2:20, 3:23, 9:50, and best of all 11:20, ah damn, pretty much the whole thing: https://youtu.be/DXy50exHjes
  
 Last one probably is my favorite vinyl record to listen to. Love it.
  
 I realize now that my attempt at communication by example is most likely futile. But still worth a try. Those are recording where difference in bass quality of Crack and H10 (with HD650) is palpable - for ME and MY EARS, that is.
  
 One thing for sure - I am not a traditional 'bass-head'. Can not stand bloated/overstated bass. I really thought that DT770 (32Ohm limited edition version) were terrible when I tried them - because of their over-pronounced bass. My friend loved those same headphones, so I guess they were not broken.
  
 Mind you, on many, many other tracks Crack and H10 both sound very, very similar, with H10 taking the prize for timbre/detail/texture.


----------



## olek

Just listened to Jean Guillou organ transcription of Pictures at an Exhibition https://youtu.be/YszySb-Jd-E
  
 Warning - this is ridiculous. Bass is so strong and so low that in couple places microphone could not take it and started to sound like it was rupturing. Or maybe those were my ears?  I need to remember to drink some Magnesium today.
  
 While there were plenty of places where Crack had better sub-bass - or whatever I call sub-bass (21:00 - 21:30, 30:25 - 30:50 are just few obvious places), difference was not as much as I have expected based on previous tuba/drums experience.
  
 I think now that difference in sub-bass I was hearing in symphonies is not just frequency based, but also comes from the fact that H10 has faster decay, that allows it to show-case more details, but at the expense of losing some 'body' (typical for SS), while Crack, as typical for tube equipment, has longer (more natural?) decay, and while it hides some details, it gives those very low notes more 'body', and that is why that tuba in Sibelius symphony sounds so realistic to me. Organ or electronic music seems to be less sensitive to amp decay differences.
  
 I am starting to suspect this is one of those cases where you can not have your cake and eat it too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Thank you for sticking with me (and tolerating me) as I educate myself.
  
 P.S. Listened to Lindsey Stirling 'Moon Trance'. Around 2:20 comes a 'buzzing' (intentionally) sound. H10 details it so much, that it sounds like s#!t. Crack with it's longer decay smoothed over the 'ridges' in that buzzing, making it actually fairly nice sound, and it blends in well. Overall, I already gave up on listening to Lindsey since I got H10, because it exposed too many glaring problems with her recordings and she were un-listenable. Very happy to have my dear Lindsey back. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sometimes ignorance is a bliss indeed.


----------



## DreamKing

H10 at +12 and up to 75% depending on what's played. Capella preamp at 50%; I found out going higher messes up the sound - overvoltage probably as the preamp's biasing voltage is much more audible than usual if I go over.
  
 Perfect tonal balance for me right now. Sub-bass is right where I need it, the rumble capability is back . No more ethereal sub-bass. Bass in general is tight and strong, allowing for tangible punches. The overall sound is grounded like I wanted but now I got the H10's extra headroom, dynamic quality and fully realized resolution too. The organic musicality is back, no more ethereal vocals thank goodness. Breaths can be felt, vocal and instrument characteristics are textured; the chills I got for the first week or so of getting the HE-560 are back. The soundstage isn't as wide and super deep as how I heard the H10 the first couple of hours but I'm not a fan of huge headstages anyway as it loses imaging, transient focus and you get that ethereal sound I don't enjoy much. Seems like this thing isn't going anywhere. There's only a little more than half a day to 100 hours.


----------



## Walderstorn

Mine arrived today, unfortunately i have to open it to make sure its on 220v and i did but i cant understand if i have to see the 220v simbol or hide it to make it 220v, sorry about the noob question.


----------



## GioF71

Mine, arrived last week, has correctly worked @220V (I live in Italy).
 I didn't open any of the items I bought (U12/X12/H10), as an act of faith I directly connected them and hit the power-on switches while holding my breath.
  
 Where did you buy it?


----------



## Walderstorn

pollychen, right now it shows 220v in white letters, i just want to make sure thats how its supposed to be.


----------



## auvgeek

walderstorn said:


> pollychen, right now it shows 220v in white letters, i just want to make sure thats how its supposed to be.


 

 Looks like you'll have to open it up. Mine 115v version has 115v blacked out and 220v in white on the outside of the case. 
  
 To open it up, you remove the two allen screws on the sides at the front and two smaller allen screws at the back. All the screws you need to remove are on the top half of the case, and the whole top half comes off.
  
 Edit: never mind. You edited your earlier post to say you already opened it up. I can't recall how it's supposed to look internally, and I don't have the time to open up mine right now.


----------



## olek

dreamking said:


> Perfect tonal balance for me right now. Sub-bass is right where I need it, the rumble capability is back . No more ethereal sub-bass.


 
  
 Glad to hear that eXtreme Burn-In did its 3-days magic for you too! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Sound will keep changing for another ~70 hours, but slower and in much more subtle ways, gaining a little more smoothness and soundstage along the way.


----------



## bavinck

olek said:


> Just listened to Jean Guillou organ transcription of Pictures at an Exhibition https://youtu.be/YszySb-Jd-E
> 
> Warning - this is ridiculous. Bass is so strong and so low that in couple places microphone could not take it and started to sound like it was rupturing. Or maybe those were my ears?  I need to remember to drink some Magnesium today.
> 
> ...




What headphones are you using for Lindsey's song? I will check it out on my he500s.


----------



## Walderstorn

auvgeek said:


> Looks like you'll have to open it up. Mine 115v version has 115v blacked out and 220v in white on the outside of the case.
> 
> To open it up, you remove the two allen screws on the sides at the front and two smaller allen screws at the back. All the screws you need to remove are on the top half of the case, and the whole top half comes off.
> 
> Edit: never mind. You edited your earlier post to say you already opened it up. I can't recall how it's supposed to look internally, and I don't have the time to open up mine right now.


 
 Yeap i just dont want to screw anything up after all the ordeal to get them, so im just waiting for some1 to confirm it  thanks


----------



## olek

bavinck said:


> What headphones are you using for Lindsey's song? I will check it out on my he500s.


 
  
  
 HD650. I tried same test on on K553 and DT250 and difference was not there - they are not resolving enough, and apply their own 'smoothing' function to the signal (that synthesizer buzzing sound is very bizarre, might be square wave...).


----------



## bavinck

I am not hearing anything that sounds out of place on my he500s, but I do know these headphones can smooth out bad recordings (which I like).


----------



## bavinck

BTW, thanks for getting me on a new artist - never heard her before


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> HD650. I tried same test on on K553 and DT250 and difference was not there - they are not resolving enough, and apply their own 'smoothing' function to the signal (that synthesizer buzzing sound is very bizarre, might be square wave...).



That raw raspy synth sound was planned because quite a bit of it from 2:20 on sounds the same. Sadly, although I might embrace Lindsey's nouveau violin sound, this recording is pretty poor. She should fire the producer/recording engineer. Nothing that unusual actually. There is a lot of this over-processed, soundstage-less, edgy electronica around.


----------



## stuartmc

auvgeek said:


> I'm holding my breath for the Tanly review with comparison to the U12. Do you also have the MX-U8?
> 
> Maybe we should take this discussion to a different thread, though...



I will post some of my impressions over on the U12 thread. Tanly so far is very "live" sounding with tremendous fine detail retrieval. Makes the U12 sound too smooth and polite in comparison.


----------



## DreamKing

...And out of nowhere the sound right now is beyond words. I don't know what I did or what's going on - is there a timer for amazing sound explosion clocked to exactly 100 hours? - but it's everything I wanted in terms of textured resolution, concrete impact and now capable of out of head spaciousness too. If you're reading this and need an amp, buy the H10 now quick. It's a good start. This track from one of my favorites digs so freakin' deep the bass goes through my chest and intestines. YouTube quality can't compare but nice snippet nonetheless.


----------



## Lorspeaker

...intestines.......wow that should work !!


----------



## fritobugger

Placing the order for mine today.  I should have it by the end of the week or sooner, if all goes well.  I look forward to pairing it with the SMSL M8 DAC and the HiFiman HE-500, HE-400i, and AKG K7XX.
  
 When you guys are burning this thing in, are you running music/sound/signal and headphones on it the entire time or just leaving it on?


----------



## Lohb

dreamking said:


> ...And out of nowhere the sound right now is beyond words. I don't know what I did or what's going on - is there a timer for amazing sound explosion clocked to exactly 100 hours? - but it's everything I wanted in terms of textured resolution, concrete impact and now capable of out of head spaciousness too. If you're reading this and need an amp, buy the H10 now quick. It's a good start. This track from one of my favorites digs so freakin' deep the bass goes through my chest and intestines. YouTube quality can't compare but nice snippet nonetheless.





 and this latest impression is with/without Capella pre-amp ?


----------



## DreamKing

lohb said:


> and this latest impression is with/without Capella pre-amp ?


 
  
 with
  


fritobugger said:


> When you guys are burning this thing in, are you running music/sound/signal and headphones on it the entire time or just leaving it on?


 
  
 I did both. I listened every day, every chance I could too to assess.


----------



## mohdkhamsya

Hi everyone. So I've just ordered this off aliexpress. They had a pretty decent deal and I got it for around USD350 shipped. In my country, we use the 220v rating but the thing is I'll be moving over to the US in the fall. Other than buying a step down adapter of some sort, is there any way I can switch it to the 110v rating? The seller told me this was possible and that if I opened up the case, there would indeed be a toggle for me to choose between the two ratings. Can anyone confirm this? Thank you.


----------



## xevman

mohdkhamsya said:


> Hi everyone. So I've just ordered this off aliexpress. They had a pretty decent deal and I got it for around USD350 shipped. In my country, we use the 220v rating but the thing is I'll be moving over to the US in the fall. Other than buying a step down adapter of some sort, is there any way I can switch it to the 110v rating? The seller told me this was possible and that if I opened up the case, there would indeed be a toggle for me to choose between the two ratings. Can anyone confirm this? Thank you.


 
 Yeah there are 2 internal switches for voltage on each of the transformers and you can switch them both easily. You'll need a set of alan keys to pull the unit apart but the lid comes off very easily.


----------



## mohdkhamsya

xevman said:


> Yeah there are 2 internal switches for voltage on each of the transformers and you can switch them both easily. You'll need a set of alan keys to pull the unit apart but the lid comes off very easily.




Aaah I see. Thank you. I'll be sure to do that. Quite excited to hear how the h10 will sound my he560. Coming from magni 2 uber btw.


----------



## Koolpep

mohdkhamsya said:


> Aaah I see. Thank you. I'll be sure to do that. Quite excited to hear how the h10 will sound my he560. Coming from magni 2 uber btw.


 
  
 Interesting, @Jozurr has just bought a HE-560 but didn't recveive it yet. He will be driving his HE-560 with a Magni2Uber - Maybe you can share some impressions how the HE-560 sounds with this amp in the HE-560 thread and later here what the differences to the H10 are?
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## mohdkhamsya

koolpep said:


> Interesting, @Jozurr
> has just bought a HE-560 but didn't recveive it yet. He will be driving his HE-560 with a Magni2Uber - Maybe you can share some impressions how the HE-560 sounds with this amp in the HE-560 thread and later here what the differences to the H10 are?
> 
> Cheers,
> K




Of course. I'd be glad to do a short comparison. In the meantime, I found this short impression I posted on the magni2u thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/748067/official-schiit-magni-modi-2-uber-thread/30#post_11265468. 

The impressions are still applicable today. My only complain is that the pairing is too neutral, bordering clinical, at least for my taste. I would prefer slightly more body, and musicality.


----------



## jbarrentine

Aren't people worried about duds or getting this amp fixed if something happens?


----------



## mohdkhamsya

jbarrentine said:


> Aren't people worried about duds or getting this amp fixed if something happens?




That's a good question. I have faith in the sellers and the product. Aliexpress has a very sophisticated buyer protection system. If the amp does fail in the future, I guess I'll have to send it back to China for repairs. Cross my fingers that won't happen.


----------



## daltonlanny

My Gustard H10 finally arrived!
Is it normal for no power cord to be included?
I think my first one a few months ago came with a power cord.
Going to let it break in for a few days before any serious evaluations.


----------



## Walderstorn

Mine came with a power cord, but it was crap, im using one from a xfx.


----------



## Koolpep

daltonlanny said:


> My Gustard H10 finally arrived!
> Is it normal for no power cord to be included?
> I think my first one a few months ago came with a power cord.
> Going to let it break in for a few days before any serious evaluations.




Congrats. Enjoy it!


----------



## daltonlanny

Out of the box, it isn't quite as transparent as my B22 was, but it still sounds really good. It also seems just a touch warmer than the B22 was.
The Gustard drives all my headphones well, except for the HE-6.
Has plenty of volume with the HE-6, but the bass and dynamics are somewhat lacking, and the upper mids/lower treble sound somewhat peaky. The B22 drives the HE-6 a bit better, and with more grip, control, and authority.
The Gustard drives the HD650 and HE500 exceptionally well.
The HE-500, especially, sounds really great through the Gustard.
It drives the HE1000 really well. Way more than enough volume.
The HE1000 sounds somewhat laid back and smooth with it right now, with good bass and treble. Not really that impressive with the HE1K right now though, to be totally honest.
I do feel that it will open up more, and sound even better in a few days after it burns in some.
Hope to get the B22 back up and running in a few weeks, and compare.


----------



## olek

stuartmc said:


> That raw raspy synth sound was planned because quite a bit of it from 2:20 on sounds the same. Sadly, although I might embrace Lindsey's nouveau violin sound, this recording is pretty poor. She should fire the producer/recording engineer. Nothing that unusual actually. There is a lot of this over-processed, soundstage-less, edgy electronica around.


 
  
  
 Totally agree with you - that sound was planned. And it sounds right on cheap equipment, but with good (detailed) equipment... her recordings get pretty nasty very fast. H10 + HD650 is too much detail for her music. But Crack + HD650 makes her music enjoyable again by essentially ignoring detail potential of HD650.
  
 Doing more back and forth listening between amps showed fairly sizeable difference in vocals. Tom Jones voice at 'What good am I?' becomes 2 miles deeper with Crack. Norah Jones voice becomes fuller. I like the change so far a lot, even if it means loss of detail.
  
 Running quick frequencies check with sample tones suggested that Crack (as compared to H10) has less of 300Hz, and more < 150Hz (talking about small differences, like 500mV vs 530mV), which I think complements HD650 beautifully. I do not think about tone controls any longer, and I do not fiddle with volume control nearly as much as I used to.
  
 I am starting to suspect that H10 is at it's best with headphones that are a little less resolving than HD650, and with more linear bass... Wait, have I just defined planars? LOL.


----------



## DreamKing

olek said:


> Totally agree with you - that sound was planned. And it sounds right on cheap equipment, but with good (detailed) equipment... her recordings get pretty nasty very fast. H10 + HD650 is too much detail for her music. But Crack + HD650 makes her music enjoyable again by essentially ignoring detail potential of HD650.
> 
> Doing more back and forth listening between amps showed fairly sizeable difference in vocals. Tom Jones voice at 'What good am I?' becomes 2 miles deeper with Crack. Norah Jones voice becomes fuller. I like the change so far a lot, even if it means loss of detail.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Did you just call planars less resolving than HD650


----------



## GioF71

daltonlanny said:


> My Gustard H10 finally arrived!
> Is it normal for no power cord to be included?
> I think my first one a few months ago came with a power cord.
> Going to let it break in for a few days before any serious evaluations.


 
  
 hello, and congratulations.
 Mine came with a cable, not suitable for my area, which also looked very cheap.
 At the moment I have used some cables I had around, from some Seasonic and Corsair PC PSUs IIRC, they are quite thick compare to the stock cables.


----------



## olek

dreamking said:


> Did you just call planars less resolving than HD650


 
  
  
 Trolling attempt successful !


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> Totally agree with you - that sound was planned. And it sounds right on cheap equipment, but with good (detailed) equipment... her recordings get pretty nasty very fast. H10 + HD650 is too much detail for her music. But Crack + HD650 makes her music enjoyable again by essentially ignoring detail potential of HD650.
> 
> Doing more back and forth listening between amps showed fairly sizeable difference in vocals. Tom Jones voice at 'What good am I?' becomes 2 miles deeper with Crack. Norah Jones voice becomes fuller. I like the change so far a lot, even if it means loss of detail.
> 
> ...




No you haven't defined planars, at least not Hifiman. I have extensive listening experience with my HD600's and also the 650, and I can state categorically that to my ears, the HE-400i and the 560 are significantly more resolving then the Senns. Not even close.


----------



## daltonlanny

stuartmc said:


> No you haven't defined planars, at least not Hifiman. I have extensive listening experience with my HD600's and also the 650, and I can state categorically that to my ears, the HE-400i and the 560 are significantly more resolving then the Senns. Not even close.




+1


----------



## bavinck

daltonlanny said:


> +1



I feel like that is true of the he500s and hd600s as well. I can't do a direct comparison but my he500 does seem much more detailed than my old hd600s.


----------



## xevman

mohdkhamsya said:


> That's a good question. I have faith in the sellers and the product. Aliexpress has a very sophisticated buyer protection system. If the amp does fail in the future, I guess I'll have to send it back to China for repairs. Cross my fingers that won't happen.


 
 There really isn't exactly much to go wrong. If something where to go wrong with this amp it would have been as a result of poor manufacturing or something like that and would be noticeable from the start. I wouldnt go on worrying about it.


----------



## daltonlanny

My Gustard H10 and the Hifiman HE1000 are sharing a connection...they are burning in together as we speak. 
Sorry couldn't resist.
 Lol


----------



## bavinck

daltonlanny said:


> My Gustard H10 and the Hifiman HE1000 are sharing a connection...they are burning in together as we speak. Lol




Well now......


----------



## daltonlanny

I figure by this weekend they should be in their prime.
Saturday, at this time, the HE1k will have approximately 165 hours burn-in and the Gustard about 96 hours.


----------



## bavinck

What amp will you bencHmark the h10 with?


----------



## rawrster

daltonlanny said:


> I figure by this weekend they should be in their prime.
> Saturday, at this time, the HE1k will have approximately 165 hours burn-in and the Gustard about 96 hours.


 
  
 Is the beta the best amp you own? I wonder how much difference it would be with the H10 compared to your beta. It looks like this amp will be much easier to drive than the HE-6 which should many who do not own speaker amps happy.


----------



## daltonlanny

Right now the B22 is the best amp I own, but its out of commission until YBM audio builds and sends me two circuit boards.
I hope to get it back up and running within 2 or 3 weeks.
The B22 sounds alot like my Headamp GS-1 did, except the Beta is more powerful, and maybe a touch warmer. The B22 and GS-1 are both very transparent. I no longer own the GS-1 though.
I then want to benchmark the HE1K with the Gustard and the B22 amps, for comparison sake.
I am looking into getting a Schiit Ragnarok soon, but can't really afford one right now.


----------



## daltonlanny

Good news....
After about 10 hours of continuous play, the Gustard H10 is starting to open up with the HE1K.
It already sounds a bit better than it did out of the box.
Drives the HE1K with authority and clarity.
The soundstage is expansive.
There is still a certain edge or emphasis somewhere in the treble, especially on certain vocals, on clap sounds, metallic sounds, etc., but it could very well be my disc players.
It also still somewhat laid back somewhere in the mids, and is sort of "easy going".
From memory the HE1K seems to have a very similar sonic signature to the HE-560, except somewhat better extension on both ends, bigger soundstage, more clarity and transparency, and doesn't seem to have the slight 4k peak. It does seem to maybe have a slight peak around 9-10 k, however.
Right now the 1000 sounds more open, detailed, and has better bass extension than ALL my current headphones, especially with Blu ray Audio, SACD, and DVD-Audio discs.
Of course, again, the Gustard isn't anywhere near optimum to drive the HE-6 with, so thats an unfair comparison.
For the price, and even above, I very highly recommend this amp, unless you plan on driving the HE-6 with it. Lol


----------



## mohdkhamsya

xevman said:


> There really isn't exactly much to go wrong. If something where to go wrong with this amp it would have been as a result of poor manufacturing or something like that and would be noticeable from the start. I wouldnt go on worrying about it.


 
  
 Thanks for the assurance. I'm not worried. I've bought audio equipment made in China and they have proven to be reliable and durable - Brainwavz, Audio Gd, Matrix M stage, Dunu, Hifimans just to name a few. I must say China has grown leaps and bounds when it comes to manufacturing electronics. There was a time when the tag 'made in China' meant abysmal quality. These days, I don't think it's true anymore.


----------



## DecentLevi

@daltonlanny you really threw me off with your nickname HE1K - I think most of us would probably still understand it better as HE 1000.
  
@mohdkhamsya I agree that audiophile quality components can be had nowdays from China, but let's not put our blanquet aprroval on everything that comes from there - there's still many knock-offs and dangerous products that exist there, such as a few years ago when I was there I found a "too good to be true" price on the Senn. PX 100 and surely enough it was low quality clone. But yes if you have done your homework and know which company there produces genuine quality audio products then you can get a good deal.


----------



## BassDigger

daltonlanny said:


> Right now the B22 is the best amp I own, but its out of commission until YBM audio builds and sends me two circuit boards.
> I hope to get it back up and running within 2 or 3 weeks.
> The B22 sounds alot like my Headamp GS-1 did, except the Beta is more powerful, and maybe a touch warmer. The B22 and GS-1 are both very transparent. I no longer own the GS-1 though.
> I then want to benchmark the HE1K with the Gustard and the B22 amps, for comparison sake.
> I am looking into getting a Schiit Ragnarok soon, but can't really afford one right now.


 
  
 Gustard vs B22! Gustard vs B22 vs Ragnorak!! And on top of this, some further impressions about the HE1k?!???
 I'm rubbing my hands together in anticipation! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 (You couldn't perhaps grab a good tube amp and some Audeze phones, to make your reviewing _totally_ match my daydreaming possibilities? Could you?)


----------



## daltonlanny

Lol.
Sorry about that.
Its just alot easier to type HE1K than HE1000.
I actually didn't invent it. Others on headfi did.


----------



## daltonlanny

bassdigger said:


> Gustard vs B22! Gustard vs B22 vs Ragnorak!! And on top of this, some further impressions about the HE1k?!???
> I'm rubbing my hands together in anticipation!
> 
> (You couldn't perhaps grab a good tube amp and some Audeze phones, to make your reviewing _totally_ match my daydreaming possibilities? Could you?)




I seriously doubt getting the Rag, a tube amp, or an Audeze anytime soon, as I am pretty much broke right now. Sorry about my wallet. Lol.
I will be very happy when I get the B22 up and running again. I had some really good WOW moments on it with my HE-6 after the gain was increased, and before it blew a main board.
I never got to hear the HE1K with it though.


----------



## BassDigger

daltonlanny said:


> ...
> There is still a certain edge or emphasis somewhere in the treble, especially on certain vocals, on clap sounds, metallic sounds, etc., *but it could very well be my disc players*.
> ...
> Right now the 1000 sounds more open, detailed, and has better bass extension than ALL my current headphones, especially with *Blu ray Audio, SACD, and DVD-Audio* discs....





> HEADPHONE AND AMP ENTHUSIAST! Current headphone system: Marantz SA8001,* CD5003/CD5001 cd players* > Harman Kardon HK3490, HeadAmp GS-1 > AKG K340 NOS, AKG K340 modded, AKG K701, Audio-Technica ATH-M50, Sennheiser HD600, Sony MDR-V6.


 
  
 OT: I've glanced at your equipment list: Whilst I commend you for using a player and listening to real discs, I can't help but draw attention to a potential mismatch between your source, and with the rest of your components. I guess that maybe your Marantz disc spinners are a better quality source than many on here (like those that are using computer audio, ipods and even phones), but they're still budget components. The amps and phones, that you're listening through, are very revealing and some are many price levels higher!
  
 As you seem to have a variety of formats (Blu-ray, dvd-a _(same thing?)_, cd & sacd), there isn't a one box solution that I could recommend. But, I think that you could definitely get more out of your cds with a vintage r2r player; you can pick them up very cheap. Then with some inexpensive mods, you'll maybe have a player that makes your cds sound better than your sacds!
 Just a thought. (PM me, if you want more info.)


----------



## daltonlanny

bassdigger said:


> OT: I've glanced at your equipment list: Whilst I commend you for using a player and listening to real discs, I can't help but draw attention to a potential mismatch between your source, and with the rest of your components. I guess that maybe your Marantz disc spinners are a better quality source than many on here (like those that are using computer audio, ipods and even phones), but they're still budget components. The amps and phones, that you're listening through, are very revealing and some are many price levels higher!
> 
> As you seem to have a variety of formats (Blu-ray, dvd-a _(same thing?)_, cd & sacd), there isn't a one box solution that I could recommend. But, I think that you could definitely get more out of your cds with a vintage r2r player; you can pick them up very cheap. Then with some inexpensive mods, you'll maybe have a player that makes your cds sound better than your sacds!
> Just a thought. (PM me, if you want more info.)




Thanks for the tips, but I really can't afford to upgrade right now.
I have spent a literal fortune on headphones and amps the last couple of months, and will be trying to decide which to keep, which to sell, or which to send back, etc.


----------



## mohdkhamsya

decentlevi said:


> @daltonlanny you really threw me off with your nickname HE1K - I think most of us would probably still understand it better as HE 1000.
> 
> @mohdkhamsya I agree that audiophile quality components can be had nowdays from China, but let's not put our blanquet aprroval on everything that comes from there - there's still many knock-offs and dangerous products that exist there, such as a few years ago when I was there I found a "too good to be true" price on the Senn. PX 100 and surely enough it was low quality clone. But yes if you have done your homework and know which company there produces genuine quality audio products then you can get a good deal.


 
  
 Didn't mean the remark as a _blanquet_ approval. More of an observation. Of course it goes without saying that a good amount of research is necessary in order for you to not get ripped off. The examples I gave were mostly well established Chinese/HK/Taiwan brands with online presence and following (hurrah for Head-Fi!). I wouldn't buy say a Sennheiser in China. Or I would have at least checked the Sennheiser website for authorized distributors in China before I commit to a purchase. But I understand that the impulse to own something you really want can sometimes overcome one's rational faculty. Been there done that. It is an emotional hobby. But we live and we learn right?


----------



## DreamKing

Spoiler: OT: DVD-A/Blu-ray






bassdigger said:


> OT: I've glanced at your equipment list: Whilst I commend you for using a player and listening to real discs, I can't help but draw attention to a potential mismatch between your source, and with the rest of your components. I guess that maybe your Marantz disc spinners are a better quality source than many on here (like those that are using computer audio, ipods and even phones), but they're still budget components. The amps and phones, that you're listening through, are very revealing and some are many price levels higher!
> 
> As you seem to have a variety of formats (*Blu-ray, dvd-a (same thing?),* cd & sacd), there isn't a one box solution that I could recommend. But, I think that you could definitely get more out of your cds with a vintage r2r player; you can pick them up very cheap. Then with some inexpensive mods, you'll maybe have a player that makes your cds sound better than your sacds!
> Just a thought. (PM me, if you want more info.)


 
  
 Dvd-a can't do 7.1 channels but blu-ray can. Dvd-a also can't do 176/192khz for anything over stereo channels but that's outside the realm of ABX testing anyway. That's the gist of the audio differences IIRC, besides the considerable capacity difference.


----------



## BassDigger

Spoiler: OT: Blu-ray, DVD-A






dreamking said:


> Spoiler: OT: DVD-A/Blu-ray
> 
> 
> 
> [size=1em]Dvd-a can't do 7.1 channels but blu-ray can. Dvd-a also can't do 176/192khz for anything over stereo channels but that's outside the realm of ABX testing anyway. That's the gist of the audio differences IIRC, besides the considerable capacity difference.[/size]





  

 How many 7.1 channel headphones do you own?


----------



## DreamKing

Spoiler: OT: DVD-A/Blu-ray






bassdigger said:


> How many 7.1 channel headphones do you own?


 
  
 How many do you ? That's besides the facts. It's available for those with the speaker setup. I'd be surprised if dalton didn't have any speakers considering all the multi-channel stuff he has.


----------



## BassDigger

Spoiler: My last OT comment (sorry)






dreamking said:


> Spoiler: OT: DVD-A/Blu-ray
> 
> 
> 
> [size=1em]How many do you ? That's besides the facts. It's available for those with the speaker setup. I'd be surprised if dalton didn't have any speakers considering all the multi-channel stuff he has.[/size]





  
 If I am missing facts, I think it's irrelevant; you're missing the point; 'head-fi'.....??


----------



## DreamKing

Spoiler: OT: headphones and binaural surround sound, last one too






bassdigger said:


> If I am missing facts, I think it's irrelevant; you're missing the point; 'head-fi'.....??


 
  
 There's binauraul surround sound support for headphones too through different interesting means with 5.1/7.1 sources. It won't give you the exact same experience as speakers but it's actually quite impressive. Using dolby headphone or similar, with 5.1/7.1 games/movies, positional cues are easy to pick apart vs stereo or 2.1. However, if you listen to multi-channel material through headphones without any of this, it's not going to sound right and certainly not like surround. There's whole threads about it on here if you wanna learn more or try it out. Here's one: http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the-nameless-guide-to-pc-gaming-audio-with-binaural-headphone-surround-sound
  
 Otherwise, I just wanted to let you know the main differences in dvd-a and blu-ray as they aren't the same technically.


----------



## daltonlanny

I listen to the high resolution stereo portions of the DVD Audio and Blu ray Audio discs only, through headphones.
I listen to the multi-channel sections of the discs through a home theater system. The multi-channel sounds strange through heaphones most of the time, so I usually don't even bother with the multi channel when listening to headphones.


----------



## auvgeek

daltonlanny said:


> Good news....
> After about 10 hours of continuous play, the Gustard H10 is starting to open up with the HE1K.
> It already sounds a bit better than it did out of the box.
> Drives the HE1K with authority and clarity.
> ...


 
 To some of us (myself included), the H10 sounded pretty good out of the box and the SQ actually got worse on days 2-3, but blossomed better than ever around 100+ hrs. Just a heads up.


----------



## daltonlanny

auvgeek said:


> To some of us (myself included), the H10 sounded pretty good out of the box and the SQ actually got worse on days 2-3, but blossomed better than ever around 100+ hrs. Just a heads up.




Yes, I am expecting it to get worse over the next couple of days, and then better.
Thats the way my first one did too.


----------



## xevman

Can't tell if it's just my brain but the amp seems to sound an awful lot better a week after I started listening to it then when I first got it. I was already happy with it when I first started listening to it. Maybe it's all in my head.


----------



## Jhya

I have been burning in my Gustard H10/X12 stack with my music collection in JRiver. But last night while listening to Taylor Swift's Blank Space, I noticed some pop/static noise at about 0.30 sec into the recording. I have the FLAC version, but the Youtube version also produces a pop/static https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ORhEE9VVg
  
 Is the Gustard stack going bad due to excessive burn in?


----------



## bavinck

jhya said:


> I have been burning in my Gustard H10/X12 stack with my music collection in JRiver. But last night while listening to Taylor Swift's Blank Space, I noticed some pop/static noise at about 0.30 sec into the recording. I have the FLAC version, but the Youtube version also produces a pop/static https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ORhEE9VVg
> 
> Is the Gustard stack going bad due to excessive burn in?


 
 If it's on both versions it is probably part of the original master. There is no such thing as excessive burn in. Burning in is just running the gear normally and some people say it changes its sound properties the longer it is used. I would just listen to it as per normal and see if you notice any changes to your ears.
  
 When I get home tonight I will see if I hear the same thing - but if Taylor Swift wrecks my H10 I will not be happy


----------



## jellofund

jhya said:


> I have been burning in my Gustard H10/X12 stack with my music collection in JRiver. But last night while listening to Taylor Swift's Blank Space, I noticed some pop/static noise at about 0.30 sec into the recording. I have the FLAC version, but the Youtube version also produces a pop/static https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ORhEE9VVg
> 
> Is the Gustard stack going bad due to excessive burn in?


 
  
 Quote:


bavinck said:


> If it's on both versions it is probably part of the original master. There is no such thing as excessive burn in. Burning in is just running the gear normally and some people say it changes its sound properties the longer it is used. I would just listen to it as per normal and see if you notice any changes to your ears.
> 
> When I get home tonight I will see if I hear the same thing - but if Taylor Swift wrecks my H10 I will not be happy


 
  
 I'm stopping buy to read up on the H10 (prospective owner) but playing that track on my amp I hear a crackling/ popping sound that starts around the 30 second mark and can be heard intermittently through the remainder of the track. similar to what you get with dusty old vinyl records and I'd presume it's an intentional effect. 
  
 Took one for the team listening to Taylor Swift


----------



## bavinck

I must admit though, her new album 1989 is actually pretty good....


----------



## jellofund

I have listened to the odd TS track in the past ......but that's just between the two of us. For headphone testing purposes of course


----------



## bavinck

Actually, her 1989 album on my he500s with the h10 sound divine...seriously.


----------



## daltonlanny

This Gustard H-10 is actually better than the one I had before.
Very open and transparent with sort of velvety textures.
Drives the HE-500, HE-5LE, HE1K, and HD650 really well indeed.
This one actually drives my HE-6 quite well.
The first one would distort with the HE-6. I can crank the HE-6 up with this one, on high gain, to uncomfortable levels before it distorts.
But, compared to the B22, with the HE-6, the bass isn't as powerful with the Gustard, its also slightly peaky, and not as dynamic, but its not really that bad with the HE-6.


----------



## auvgeek

daltonlanny said:


> This Gustard H-10 is actually better than the one I had before.
> Very open and transparent with sort of velvety textures.


 
 Huh. That's very odd to me. Do you think the one you had before was a dud, or did they change something in their mfg processes? Or is there just that much variability in components (hard to believe)?


----------



## daltonlanny

Not really sure.
But this one is alittle better.


----------



## DreamKing

It possibly could have been set to 220V (?). I had to specify this as I wasn't sure what they did by default. Pollychen confirmed it was set to 115 by their engineer.


----------



## daltonlanny

But if it would have been set to 220 volts, would it have even worked at all?


----------



## DreamKing

daltonlanny said:


> But if it would have been set to 220 volts, would it have even worked at all?


  

 It would have effectively damaged the H10, hence distortion. But it's just a hypothetical. I've never tried nor ever will do that.


----------



## daltonlanny

dreamking said:


> It would have effectively damaged the H10, hence distortion. But it's just a hypothetical. I've never tried nor ever will do that.




The other one never sounded distorted at all, except when trying to drive the HE-6 at fairly high volumes. This one just seems to have a tad more dynamic reserve, and seems to be a touch more transparent.
The other one also sounded a touch warmer than this one, and slightly more veiled, for whatever reason.


----------



## DreamKing

In that case, never mind then. I know almost instantaneous bad things happen when you plug a 110-115V into a 220V outlet, but plugging a 220V H10 into 115V wouldn't give sufficient voltage and so I think it would distort.
  


daltonlanny said:


> The other one never sounded distorted at all, except when trying to drive the HE-6 at fairly high volumes. This one just seems to have a tad more dynamic reserve, and seems to be a touch more transparent.
> The other one was a touch warmer than this one for whatever reason.


----------



## daltonlanny

This is one impressive little amp. Worth every penny so far !


----------



## Walderstorn

dreamking said:


> It possibly could have been set to 220V (?). I had to specify this as I wasn't sure what they did by default. Pollychen confirmed it was set to 115 by their engineer.


 
  
 DreamKing would u be able to open yours and confirm if it shows 110 in white letter or 220v (covering the 110v letters) please?


----------



## DreamKing

walderstorn said:


> DreamKing would u be able to open yours and confirm if it shows 110 in white letter or 220v (covering the 110v letters) please?


 
 click for higher res


----------



## Kozic

I just had mine delivered about 3 hours ago and first off have a cord set it go do not depend on the one that it comes with. Mine was so lose if you looked at it wrong it cut out. Thought I may have to return it but a old PC cord fits well and all is good.
Now I will say with planner headphones ie LCD2.2F and maddog pro the H10 sounds better then the Asgard 2. I would say it's more transparent with a better soundstage and the bass hits harder at the same db level. For now I have it at the +6 gain.
Now with the Beyer T90 its harder to hear a difference.
Looking forward to hearing the burn in. 
As always this is just IMO.


----------



## fritobugger

It doesn't get anymore clear than that photo.  Most excellent.
  
 I have to say, all these positive comments are making me quite excited to get mine.  I hope it comes today or tomorrow so I can play with it over the weekend.


----------



## fritobugger

I spoke too fast.  It arrived just a few minutes after my last post.  Seems to be in working order.  It came with a power cord but no other documentation of any kind.
  
 Can someone provide a primer on the dip switch settings for the gain?  All down is lowest?  All up is highest?  Any suggestions on different combinations of settings?


----------



## xevman

fritobugger said:


> I spoke too fast.  It arrived just a few minutes after my last post.  Seems to be in working order.  It came with a power cord but no other documentation of any kind.
> 
> Can someone provide a primer on the dip switch settings for the gain?  All down is lowest?  All up is highest?  Any suggestions on different combinations of settings?


 
 DO NOT switch multiple switches at once only one at a time per channel and it must be done with the amp powered OFF.  Also whatever dip switch you switch up on one side the same one must be switched up on the other side.

 Only 1 dip switch can be be switched on at one time per side

 the gain of the amp is +8 with NO switches ON
 you can then modify it from there for example if you switch the +12 gain switch on you effectively have +20 gain and if you switch the -12 dip switch on you will have -4 gain etc.


----------



## olek

@fritobugger
  
  
 To save you some frustration, looking at switches from left to right:
  
 1. RCA vs balanced inputs; keep it down for RCA unless you really like muffled sound.
  
 2. -12db
  
 3. -6db
  
 4. +6db
  
 5. +12db
  
 It is probably wise to operate switches with amp off, but being a fool that I am I switched them live with no ill effect. YMMV.
  
 All switches down means default 0db gain offset adjustment and RCA inputs active.


----------



## xevman

olek said:


> @fritobugger
> 
> 
> To save you some frustration, looking at switches from left to right:
> ...


 
Main amplifier gain: +8 dB
 
Main amplifier gain adjustment range: -4 / +2 / +8 / +14 / +20 dB


----------



## fritobugger

@olek
  
@xevman
  
 Thank you both for your responses.  I had them all up at one time with no apparent effect, ill or otherwise.  All changes were made with the unit off.  Now running in +14 with AKG K7XX.  Sounds very nice.  Slightly warm but with amazing detail.  Since this is at the office, I am using the Stoner U120 DAC and not the SMSL M8.  That will need to wait until this evening.  I look forward to trying it with the HE-500 and HE-400i.
  
 Thanks to all the fine folks here for continued excellent info,
  
 Cheers!


----------



## lukeap69

olek said:


> @fritobugger
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why do you think the balanced connection is muffled?


----------



## DreamKing

It depends on how your H10 is connected. If you're operating the H10 with RCA cables or single ended, balanced inputs active will sound wrong. My H10 came with the balanced switch active and the rest of the switches down. It sounded bad configured like this because there weren't any balanced connections.


----------



## olek

dreamking said:


> It depends on how your H10 is connected. If you're operating the H10 with RCA cables or single ended, balanced inputs active will sound wrong. My H10 came with the balanced switch active and the rest of the switches down. It sounded bad configured like this because there weren't any balanced connections.


 

 That, exactly. Had same problem, thought I will spare somebody frustration.


----------



## lukeap69

I see. I misunderstood the previous post. The balanced switch must be correctly set to whatever connection your using. IME, the balanced connection has more dynamics and tighter bass.


----------



## olek

Now, since we all had to suffer from cruel Taylor Swift, that offence can be erased with only even more cruel Jill Barber.
  
 https://youtu.be/9NTHjWB2-sU
  
 Mandatory pseudo-H10 content: this song sounds so dull on youtube, than neither H10 nor Crack can rescue it. Do not know what lowly compression they use for those SD videos, but ... it is so much worse than CD.
  
 And to totally rescue this post for angry OT police: there was quite a bit of talk here before about gain switches making sound more ?impactfull? on higher gain settings, and my very limited testing suggested that low frequency response was staying about the same on all gain offsets, yet sound does become less dynamic and 'lazier' on lower gain settings, and vice versa, on high gain settings sounds become a bit more 'aggressive'. What gives? I do not think this is total placebo effect (although it could be).


----------



## DreamKing

olek said:


> And to totally rescue this post for angry OT police: there was quite a bit of talk here before about gain switches making sound more ?impactfull? on higher gain settings, and my very limited testing suggested that low frequency response was staying about the same on all gain offsets, yet sound does become less dynamic and 'lazier' on lower gain settings, and vice versa, on high gain settings sounds become a bit more 'aggressive'. What gives? I do not think this is total placebo effect (although it could be).


 
  
 Yes, this impact is beautiful tamed with a preamp of your choice IMO. Without that I couldn't stand the +12 dB as it was, as you said, aggressive and even less out of the box with gain that high. Though, YMMV


----------



## Jhya

Now I'm hearing all these imperfections from the songs in my music collections, such as occasional pops, background statics, etc... that I have never noticed before. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't know if that's a curse or a blessing. I wish I can go back to the way it was before I started to notice and just enjoy my music.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

+6 gain constitutes the best setting for me. I feel the higher gain subtly fills out the mids on my headphones, sounding too limp with all the switches down. 

This was extremely apparent with my AKGs, which are notoriously revealing of upstream gear. 

By the way, I just received some Beyer DT880 600 ohms. What a beautiful synergy these two make, better than my Sennheisers.


----------



## BassDigger

jhya said:


> Now I'm hearing all these imperfections from the songs in my music collections, such as occasional pops, background statics, etc... that I have never noticed before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh! Actually, you're mentioning some typical 'symptoms' of someone who's just 'undergone' a large upgrade of equipment; things aren't always better. It seems that this amp is much more revealing, or it may be better suited to your headphones, than whatever you were using before.
 Hopefully, the payback will be that you'll be closer to the music (as well as the background noises), and you'll find a whole new group of favourite recordings; recordings the were literally hidden from your ears, before.


----------



## fritobugger

Is it just me or is this thing warm but yet very revealing?


----------



## stuartmc

fritobugger said:


> Is it just me or is this thing warm but yet very revealing?




No it's not just you. Let "search this thread" be thy friend. Plug in your chosen search terms and you will find dozens of posts in this thread that say essentially the same thing.


----------



## Walderstorn

dreamking said:


> click for higher res


 
 Thanks its what i thought ^^
  
  


liu junyuan said:


> +6 gain constitutes the best setting for me. I feel the higher gain subtly fills out the mids on my headphones, sounding too limp with all the switches down.
> 
> This was extremely apparent with my AKGs, which are notoriously revealing of upstream gear.
> 
> By the way, I just received some Beyer DT880 600 ohms. What a beautiful synergy these two make, better than my Sennheisers.


  
  
 You would say +6 even with the sennheisers? My problem is i like playing with my 598 but i do love music/movies with the 600.
  


jhya said:


> Now I'm hearing all these imperfections from the songs in my music collections, such as occasional pops, background statics, etc... that I have never noticed before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 I understand you perfectly coming from a fiio e17...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

walderstorn said:


> Thanks its what i thought ^^
> 
> 
> I understand you perfectly coming from a fiio e17...




It is not as necessary with the Senns, but I stick with +6 anyway at all times.


----------



## mylica

loving my H10 with HD600.  Great amp


----------



## olek

> By the way, I just received some Beyer DT880 600 ohms. What a beautiful synergy these two make, better than my Sennheisers.


 
  
  
 I am all ears. I am one of lucky 50 people to get in a drop for all black version of DT880/600, although it will probably take another 2 months till I actually have them in my hands.
  
 Given very high impedance of those, I did not expect them to pair all that well with H10 (but was hopeful). Details, please


----------



## sportteo

i  order GUSTARD H10  230volts,but  in which way we can recognize that balanced  is active ? for example i want to connect  dac matrix i pro analog output and H10 via xlr cables
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hgd5on&s=8#.VV49BUYvx1s


----------



## olek

@sportteo
 Not to sound rude, but your answer is in last 2 pages of this thread. Read, please.


----------



## genclaymore

sportteo said:


> i  order GUSTARD H10  230volts,but  in which way we can recognize that balanced  is active ? for example i want to connect  dac matrix i pro analog output and H10 via xlr cables
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2hgd5on&s=8#.VV49BUYvx1s


 
 There a switch inside of it that  should be on 230v if you ordered it to be that way. You could do what I did and open it up to be safe better then sorry.


----------



## DreamKing

liu junyuan said:


> It is not as necessary with the Senns, but I stick with +6 anyway at all times.


 
  
 Listening closer to +6 vs +12, I have to agree now. IMO, +12 has crazy gain ramp up that can lead to peakyness if you aren't careful and over-emphasize artifacts in bad recordings. It feels like incremental changes at +6 vs almost exponential at +12. I might wrestle between the two in the future depending on what's being played but I'm now settling at +6 for general listening with my preamp.


----------



## bavinck

I have never heard sound changes with gain setting changes like the h10 before. Any electrical engineers in the house that could explain this for us?


----------



## genclaymore

Setting it to 6+ was the first thing i did after making sure it was set to 110v. I loving the gustard H10 over the Asgard 2 I speechless I can't explain in detail what I like. To my ears I perfer the gustard H10 over the Asgard 2. It is a perfect match for the HE-500.
  
  
  
 Edit: What op-amps have people tried so for in the gustard H10 if any one started rolling op-amps.


----------



## bavinck

genclaymore said:


> It is a perfect match for the HE-500.


 
 This. I am really interested in hearing how it pairs with other Hifiman cans, like the 400i and 1k. We already know it does well with 560, and I am not sure I would ever want to buy that headphone anyway.


----------



## fritobugger

Works well with both my HE-500 and HE-400i.  The HE-500 is very smooth.  The HE-400i is a bit in your face.


----------



## bavinck

How does the bass and treble on the 400i compare to the 500 in the h10? Does the bass go as deep and as textured? Which one has more bass. If the treble as extended and detailed? I am considering a 400i purchase, but if the bass extension isn't there I will keep saving for audeze.


----------



## fritobugger

Regardless of the amp the bass on the 500 is a bit smooth and has a bit deeper bass than the 400i.  400i is no bass slouch though.  It still has good planar bass. These are still open cans so they are not bass cannons.  They have clear bass with good extension and impact. Treble is very similar.  Maybe better in the 500 but it is close.  The mids and comfort are the big difference.  400i has more pronounced mids and is more comfortable.  500 has smoother mids but is less comfortable though buying the Focus pads gets it pretty close.


----------



## xevman

I've noticed if i try to use IEMS on normal gain i can actually hear the slightest bit of music from one channel at 0% volume. Is this normal? on low gain its no existent though.


----------



## Koolpep

olek said:


> I am all ears. I am one of lucky 50 people to get in a drop for all black version of DT880/600, although it will probably take another 2 months till I actually have them in my hands.
> 
> Given very high impedance of those, I did not expect them to pair all that well with H10 (but was hopeful). Details, please




Congrats to your headphone, it should look stellar.

The H10 puts out 570mW into 600 Ohm - that's huuuuge power for the DT880 - it should sound really good with them.....

Cheers,
K


----------



## Walderstorn

xevman said:


> I've noticed if i try to use IEMS on normal gain i can actually hear the slightest bit of music from one channel at 0% volume. Is this normal? on low gain its no existent though.


 
 Are you using an adapter of some sort to 3.5mm?


----------



## xevman

walderstorn said:


> Are you using an adapter of some sort to 3.5mm?



 


yeah i am


----------



## Walderstorn

xevman said:


> walderstorn said:
> 
> 
> > Are you using an adapter of some sort to 3.5mm?
> ...


 
 Try a different one, that was my problem, either way every iem i have sounds better with -6, only the jvc fxt200ltd i hear better with all the switches down.


----------



## xevman

walderstorn said:


> Try a different one, that was my problem, either way every iem i have sounds better with -6, only the jvc fxt200ltd i hear better with all the switches down.



 


same problem i guess the gain is simply too high for iems, on lower gain this is no longer an issue its just on the default (all switches down) you can hear the FAINTEST sign of music playing on the left channel at 0 volume


----------



## Walderstorn

xevman said:


> walderstorn said:
> 
> 
> > Try a different one, that was my problem, either way every iem i have sounds better with -6, only the jvc fxt200ltd i hear better with all the switches down.
> ...


 
 weird that doesnt happen with my jvc iem, but does happen with the rha, brainwavz, piston and monoprice so i guess its normal ^^


----------



## xevman

walderstorn said:


> weird that doesnt happen with my jvc iem, but does happen with the rha, brainwavz, piston and monoprice so i guess its normal ^^


 
 Yeah its the channel imbalance even with a high quality alps pot it will always be there by design, even my woo amp had the same problem with channel imbalance at low volumes. To avoid this run appropriate gain for your headphones so you have good control of the volume pot and don't have to worry about low level imbalance.


----------



## Lohb

walderstorn said:


> weird that doesnt happen with my jvc iem, but does happen with the rha, brainwavz, piston and monoprice so i guess its normal ^^


 

 Was it ever meant to cover all bases including high sensitivity IEM's as a headphone amp ?
 Even Fiio splits their cans and IEM amp now.


----------



## Walderstorn

lohb said:


> Was it ever meant to cover all bases including high sensitivity IEM's as a headphone amp ?
> Even Fiio splits their cans and IEM amp now.


 
  
 I dont think  so, i just used my IEMS for the first time with the h10 today for testing purposes, for me its for cans only, IEMS are for other sources/amp in my case. I had a e17 for those and the hd598 but i sold the fiio  to buy the v90dac+ h10 for the hd600  since i dont need the portability these days ^^


----------



## mylica

anyone here using cross-feed?  Coming from bookshelf, sure feel weird with those panning on headphone.


----------



## olek

LifeAspect said:
			
		

> from what I can remember, the violectric v200 had a pretty "tuby" sound, in the end I was rather disappointed in the hdvd800 with the lcd-x. I reckon soundwise the violectric came rather close to the studio six actually, although it has been so long since I heard it. Can't AB test anymore. I do remember the V200's bass extension wasn't as good as the tube amp, but not bad either. V200 probably is one of the best amps I have heard for the HD800 and after getting the hdvd800 I kinda missed its sound signature, so ended up with tubes.


 
  
  
 Accidentally stumbled upon this interesting observation in a different thread, and could not help but to quote it here.
  
 And we all know how V200 relates to H10


----------



## olek

Surprise, surprise, got my all-black DT-880 600Ohm today in the mail.
  
 I do not know what I want to do more now, dance and laugh or hide in a corner and cry.
  
 On one side, DT880 paired amazingly well with H10, words can not describe it. Great sub-bass (YES!), no mid-bass hump, all midrange I could have, and open, transparent (but usually not strident) treble, and detail, oh how much detail. Simply brilliant pairing that exceeded all my expectations.
  
 On the other side, DT880 and Crack did not pair all that well, or to put it another way, DT880 does not benefit from Crack much, and it loses so much detail and clarity in that pairing.
  
 And worst of all, comparing side by side ideal pairings of Crack+HD650 and H10+DT880, Sennheisers sound a bit bassy and quite a bit nasal, or 'like in cave' sound, while Beyerdynamics just sound clean. Or to put it in other words, Crack+HD650 sounds like story written in cursive on yellow parchment, while H10+DT880 sounds like story printed in modern book on nice bleached white paper. I was so much in love with Crack and HD650 just this morning, and they were dethroned so quickly and unceremoniously. That hurts.
  
 One area were Crack still reigns supreme even with DT880 is lower listening fatigue, that I am very sensitive to. I will try adding Speedball to it, and rolling some tubes, and hope for the best.
  
 Those are very quick initial impressions, but they are STRONG. As it is, I would still recommend stock Crack over H10 for HD650 owners (unless they are craving details above all else and do not care about truncated sub-bass), but for DT880 owners H10 is a much more logical way to go, there is really no downside.
  
 I can't even imagine what H10 would do to T1, which I believe has in general similar sound signature to DT880, but is much more detail-oriented.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi Olek, so you betrayed my advice on the DT 880 250 ohm... kidding no problem. Wow according to your impressions it seems the 600 ohm synergises famously with the H10 amp... so well I would almost be afraid to see if the 250 ohm could be even better. And for anybody on the fence about the DT 880, you may wanna consider the DT 770, 600 ohm - it's the closed version of the 880 and word has been spreading about how magical the Alphapads are for these. I've tried both Beyer's and it seems the bass on the 770 is even lower and more organic.
  
 However I've also heard the 880's can do quite well with tube amps so I was surprised to see it didn't pair to well this your Crack tube amp - maybe if there's some way to try increasing / decreasing the gain stage on the Crack then go ahead and try it - I can wager that would solve the pairing with the 880. If there's no gain switch then contact the designer and he may have a tip or two on what kind of mod you can use to implement that on the Crack, or ask this question on the thread for it. One small gripe I have always had about my DT 880 (32 ohm) is that the soundstage is, while quite good, not quite up to par with the Senn. HD 650 and mine at least seemed slightly bass-shy.
  
 Also about the Beyer. T1 - apologies in advance to Beyerdynamic, but even though it has special design / technology I've tried this one twice with very decent source chains and to me it always sounded lowly refined - thin without weight to the bass, and maybe not the greatest upper treble extension either.


----------



## Lorspeaker

....give the T1 a few more chances...it is so clarion...
I could SEE the brand of the wooden clasp on a particular classical work...ok kiddg.
the bass aint anemic too. great great can ..snag one on the cheap if u can.

wonder how it would pair w the Gustardsound...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> Surprise, surprise, got my all-black DT-880 600Ohm today in the mail.
> 
> I do not know what I want to do more now, dance and laugh or hide in a corner and cry.
> 
> ...




As a newbie to the DT 880 600 sound (i listen to them as I type on phone), I concur with you comparisons between the clean mid DT 880 versus thick HD 650 comparison, yet the HD 650 carries a great deal of credibility with me, which means the DT 880 needs more time for me to solidify a personal assessment. 

The pairing between H10 and DT 880 works well because the sharpness of this transducer's treble is in tension with the velvet-smooth top-end that the H10 conveys, notwithstanding the synergy between the noticeable lack of mid-bass hump on the DT 880 and the midrange fullness of the H10--a formidable polysemy indeed!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lorspeaker said:


> ....give the T1 a few more chances...it is so clarion...
> I could SEE the brand of the wooden clasp on a particular classical work...ok kiddg.
> the bass aint anemic too. great great can ..snag one on the cheap if u can.
> 
> wonder how it would pair w the Gustardsound...




Nice use of clarion!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek One thing I forget to mention: you need to apply speedball to your crack asap. It is actually not even optional at this point as you should buy another amp otherwise. Also, since the crack is particularly tube-sensitive, you would need to find tubes amorous with your DT 880 specifically, not your HD 650. Several have notes this truism on the DT 880 forums and elsewhere.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> Hi Olek, so you betrayed my advice on the DT 880 250 ohm... kidding no problem. Wow according to your impressions it seems the 600 ohm synergises famously with the H10 amp... so well I would almost be afraid to see if the 250 ohm could be even better. And for anybody on the fence about the DT 880, you may wanna consider the DT 770, 600 ohm - it's the closed version of the 880 and word has been spreading about how magical the Alphapads are for these. I've tried both Beyer's and it seems the bass on the 770 is even lower and more organic.
> 
> However I've also heard the 880's can do quite well with tube amps so I was surprised to see it didn't pair to well this your Crack tube amp - maybe if there's some way to try increasing / decreasing the gain stage on the Crack then go ahead and try it - I can wager that would solve the pairing with the 880. If there's no gain switch then contact the designer and he may have a tip or two on what kind of mod you can use to implement that on the Crack, or ask this question on the thread for it. One small gripe I have always had about my DT 880 (32 ohm) is that the soundstage is, while quite good, not quite up to par with the Senn. HD 650 and mine at least seemed slightly bass-shy.
> 
> Also about the Beyer. T1 - apologies in advance to Beyerdynamic, but even though it has special design / technology I've tried this one twice with very decent source chains and to me it always sounded lowly refined - thin without weight to the bass, and maybe not the greatest upper treble extension either.




I am not respond to all of this now as I am in the middle of something, but I am compelled to say that 1) the DT 880 is not a fully open headphone, which should temper your evaluation of stage comparisons between the DT 880 and HD 650 and 2) I agree with you on the low end on the most part; however, my 339, when making out with the DT 880 in the back of a club playing Aphex Twin, translates bass quite viscerally indeed.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Hi Junyuan, when u are less bz, pls compare your La Figaro with the H10, over one or two of your cans...making out...


----------



## olek

liu junyuan said:


> @olek One thing I forget to mention: you need to apply speedball to your crack asap. It is actually not even optional at this point as you should buy another amp otherwise. Also, since the crack is particularly tube-sensitive, you would need to find tubes amorous with your DT 880 specifically, not your HD 650. Several have notes this truism on the DT 880 forums and elsewhere.


 

 I agree with you wholeheartedly, Liu. Plan is to work on Speedball today if family life allows for that. Got already 12 driver tubes (of 5 different kinds) in the mail on the way to me too.
  
 DT880 still has chance to pair well with Crack, but amp needs to pump much more detail for that. And H10 admittedly sets a very high bar to clear.
  
 Listening to Sibelius's Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 on DT880 and H10 right now, and sound is absolutely to die for.
  
 Such clarity. Wow! Much presence!


----------



## olek

@DecentLevi
  
 I actually planned to pair 600Ohm version of DT880 with Crack. Who knew that it will turn out H10 is better pairing.
  
 As for DT770, I had 32Ohm LE version of it for couple weeks couple years ago. All I remember is boomy, thunderous bass that obscured everything else. I guess I am not a basshead at all. Likely 600Ohm version is much better than that, but I am still cautious. That experience was a reason I stayed away from DT880 so long (too long!).
  
 In my setup DT880 is not bassy, but it is not bass shy either. It is just right   Looks like it was not (quantity of) bass that I was going after with my HD650 'adjustments', but linearity of it in lower regions. DT880 is very linear, and I am totally happy with its bass. I was happy with AD900 for number of years, and those phones have extremely lean and shy bass. If anything, on some bad recordings DT880 can be a little shrill in highs, but so far that is not much of an issue.
  
 DT880 have less soundstage than HD650, that is right (being semi-closed design), but for me, with my 1.5 functioning ears, it is good enough.
  
 P.S. Starting to consider replacing HD650 with HD600 to get rid of 'hump'. Will give that thought some time.


----------



## bavinck

It's funny how we all hear differently. I did find the dt880s very details and gentle in their presentation. However, though the bass went deep it was very shy to my ears and the treble was sibilant. YMMV I guess!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> It's funny how we all hear differently. I did find the dt880s very details and gentle in their presentation. However, though the bass went deep it was very shy to my ears and the treble was sibilant. YMMV I guess!




It is absolutely lovely on a proper otl amp. On the La Figaro 339 I can hardly believe my ears that such authentic commentary was and is throughout the present--possible. 

Adjectives which readily come to my mind include the following: 

•A tone to die for 
•Holographic stage with cheap tubes 
•Deep, deep bass when recording mandates--also incredibly visceral 
•A fantastic pairing with the royal Beyerdynamic DT 880 600 ohm, the venerable Senheiser HD 6xx0, or the intoxicating AKG K7XX. 

No amp in my inventory approaches the engagement th La Figaro 339 offers.

Tbough my Lyr and H-10 promise me wonderful "morning after" options and opportunities


----------



## MattTCG

Got mine!! Testing for the past few hours. Early results...very good.


----------



## olek

bavinck said:


> It's funny how we all hear differently. I did find the dt880s very details and gentle in their presentation. However, though the bass went deep it was very shy to my ears and the treble was sibilant. YMMV I guess!


 

 Yes, we all do hear differently, indeed.
  
 I do not find them bass-shy, actually, when feeding them from NAD 1020 (yea, just had to try it again), low bass is actually ... a bit too much - double bass becomes very prominent and hijacks lead from Kat Edmonson's in 'One Fine Day'. Surprisingly decent pairing as well, and I had to turn volume knob DOWN from where I remember using it with other, lower impedance headphones. Will need to give it some time too.
  
 As for treble... probably slightly hotter treble may just compensates for my worn out hearing - and as long as it is not peaky in areas that are painful for me, I do not mind.


----------



## daltonlanny

matttcg said:


> Got mine!! Testing for the past few hours. Early results...very good.




+1
Excellent amp! Improves greatly after about 4 days of burn-in.
Drives the Hifiman HEK really well too, imho.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

matttcg said:


> Got mine!! Testing for the past few hours. Early results...very good.




Welcome to an amp that arguably betters the Vioelectoc V200 for a fraction of the price.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> Yes, we all do hear differently, indeed.
> 
> I do not find them bass-shy, actually, when feeding them from NAD 1020 (yea, just had to try it again), low bass is actually ... a bit too much - double bass becomes very prominent and hijacks lead from Kat Edmonson's in 'One Fine Day'. Surprisingly decent pairing as well, and I had to turn volume knob DOWN from where I remember using it with other, lower impedance headphones. Will need to give it some time too.
> 
> As for treble... probably slightly hotter treble may just compensates for my worn out hearing - and as long as it is not peaky in areas that are painful for me, I do not mind.




Well it is perfectly paired with something like the H10 or my 339 because of the tension between opposing sound signatures. In particular to the H10, the sharp highs of the DT 880 remain sharp, yet they are shaded by a delicate finesse that pushes them forward without so much fatigue, all the while remaining detailed and resolute, bass tight and visceral.


----------



## FlySweep

matttcg said:


> Got mine!! Testing for the past few hours. Early results...very good.


 
  
 Great to hear, Matt.. looking forward to more of your impressions.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

flysweep said:


> Great to hear, Matt.. looking forward to more of your impressions.




+1 because FlySweep is the one who convinced me to believe in the H10 over the LP 509


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> Well it is perfectly paired with something like the H10 or my 339 because of the tension between opposing sound signatures. In particular to the H10, the sharp highs of the DT 880 remain sharp, yet they are shaded by a delicate finesse that pushes them forward without so much fatigue, all the while remaining detailed and resolute, bass tight and visceral.



You're making me want to try a dt880 with my h10!


----------



## MattTCG

I plugged in the h10 with: hd650, lcd2f, el8 closed. I got the amp used and it has about 100 hours on it. First impression...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. There is no way that this amp should sound this good. I've had a few good hours with the h10, so these are early impressions.
  
 *laser tight control of the driver from this amp on ALL hp that I've auditioned it with. The net result is that I feel that I'm getting an exceptional pairing with each hp that I've used it with.
  
 *the h10 is close to neutral with a good dash of warmth. It's incredibly musical and engaging from the moment I turn it on until I reluctantly stop listening to music. 
  
 *seems to work as well with dynamic driver based hp's as it does with planar mags. 
  
 *plenty of grunt and power in reserve, but not raw power. This amp does finesse with ease. 
  
 *the look is nice. I like the large volume knob. The machined aluminum is well finished, I would have preferred silver. Nice large silver footers with rubber bottoms, nice touch. I could build a nice little hardwood outer box for the chassis and it might look stunning. Not sure if that would effect the thermals. 
  
 *I don't understand balanced input without a balanced out option...why? If the h10 offered both SE and balanced outs, it would be a giant killer...it may be one anyway. 
  
 *gets warm but not hot.
  
 I'm early into the evaluation of the h10 but I'm about as impressed as I could have ever imagined. This amp sounds a little like the Cavalli Carbon I heard a few weeks ago at the Nashville meet. I'll be anxious to get both of them in the same room to do some comparative listening. The performance of the h10 is just crazy at this price. Makes want to buy a backup in case anything happens to this one.


----------



## rawrster

If this amp is a clone of the v200 then it makes sense that there are balanced inputs as a lot of studio gear uses balanced cables and violectric has a background in studio gear.


----------



## DreamKing

matttcg said:


> I'm early into the evaluation of the h10 but I'm about as impressed as I could have ever imagined. This amp sounds a little like the Cavalli Carbon I heard a few weeks ago at the Nashville meet. I'll be anxious to get both of them in the same room to do some comparative listening. The performance of the h10 is just crazy at this price. Makes want to buy a backup in case anything happens to this one.


 
  
 That's what I was hoping for, looking forward to your Carbon / H10 clash 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. This amp really is a steal at the price, largely undercutting a $1K design.


----------



## MattTCG

rawrster said:


> If this amp is a clone of the v200 then it makes sense that there are balanced inputs as a lot of studio gear uses balanced cables and violectric has a background in studio gear.


 
 Thanks for that. Makes sense now. 
  


dreamking said:


> That's what I was hoping for, looking forward to your Carbon / H10 clash
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 If I had paid $800 for the h10, I would still be completely happy. 
  
  
 I'm just loving the tone and timbre of female vocals. Lot's of nuance and detail in these mids. This is mids done exceptionally well.


----------



## daltonlanny

matttcg said:


> Thanks for that. Makes sense now.
> 
> If I had paid $800 for the h10, I would still be completely happy.
> 
> ...




Matt,
Have you tried the Hifiman HEK with the Gustard H10? 
Big mismatch in price, and sounds totally insane, but I honestly think the HEK sounds very impressive with this amp


----------



## FlySweep

matttcg said:


> I plugged in the h10 with: hd650, lcd2f, el8 closed. I got the amp used and it has about 100 hours on it. First impression...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Excellent impressions, Matt.. you identified many of the same things in the H10 that appealed to me.  @ansi .. can you find out if the H10 operates in Class A at all times?  I'd expect it to get much warmer if it stayed in Class A 100% of the time (like the Asgard, for instance). 
   





matttcg said:


> I'm just loving the tone and timbre of female vocals. Lot's of nuance and detail in these mids. This is mids done exceptionally well.


 
  
 Now you know why I felt it rivaled the Speedballed Crack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (and you know how much we love the 650/Crack combo).


----------



## daltonlanny

daltonlanny said:


> Matt,
> Have you tried the Hifiman HEK with the Gustard H10?
> Big mismatch in price, and sounds totally insane, but I honestly think the HEK sounds very impressive with this amp
> The Gustard definitely cuts the mustard


----------



## DreamKing

daltonlanny said:


> Matt,
> Have you tried the Hifiman HEK with the Gustard H10?
> Big mismatch in price, and sounds totally insane, but I honestly think the HEK sounds very impressive with this amp


 

 If it does the job then surely it can't be _insane_, can it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 IMO, regardless of price, the H10 can be considered end game if it's not going to be paired with the very few extremely inefficient headphone like the HE-6 or Abyss and if balanced outputs aren't a concern for the buyer. I think transducers are the better investment, past the point of being sufficiently driven. The technology keeps advancing.


----------



## daltonlanny

You are correct, and I agree, but some folks out there would claim I'm not properly evaluating the HE1000 by using a budget amp, and would criticize me for doing it.
I personally feel that I am truly getting a good taste of their potential, by using this amp, regardless of its price.


----------



## olek

flysweep said:


> Now you know why I felt it rivaled the Speedballed Crack
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Huh. Now I can relate, and I totally agree. Spent last 4 hours adding Speedball upgrade to my Crack. Lots of teeny-tiny detail work, but everything checked out and worked fine first time.
  
 Yep. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now the playing field between H10 and Crack is level. Detail in Crack is boosted up to respectable level, and amount of "yellow parchment" coloration dropped significantly. With my (stock) tubes, Crack is slightly warmer than H10, and highs are rolled off a bit more (good thing for DT880), but that is about it. Couple times I felt like bass details with Crack were a bit better than with H10, but that idea still sounds preposterous to me.
  
 Currently my preferred pairing is still Crack+HD650 and H10+DT880, but mix-and-matching is not bad at all. It is just that Crack+DT880 can have a bit too much low bass for my taste, and H10+HD650 lacks that very same low bass. But those differences are more or less just tonal differences, and are subject to interpretation by different ears. I am very happy that order of things in universe is restored now.
  
 Oh, and power usage of Crack dropped from 45W to 35W. Still hot, but does not try to burn my hand any longer. For those curious, H10 consumes about 12W.
  
 Currently I am very happy to endorse both amps, and both headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And for any bassheads (or not) out here, here is crazy chanting by Tibetan monks: https://youtu.be/8-wLLhyVlLk
  
 Never thought human voice can actually extend that much down... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Good usage (and test) for all that low frequency resolution goodness.


----------



## BassDigger

daltonlanny said:


> You are correct, and I agree, but some folks out there would claim I'm not properly evaluating the HE1000 by using a *budget *amp, and would criticize me for doing it.
> I personally feel that I am truly getting a good taste of their potential, by using this amp, regardless of its price.


 
  
 If you're talking about the Gustard H10, it seems that the better word might be 'bargain', rather than 'budget'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think that it matters, because I think we need to discourage the mindset where people may think that good quality components _have_ to be expensive; cheap components are always poorer quality (in ultimate terms); and expensive components are _always_ better.
  
 That kind of thinking is just letting the industry lead you by the nose; you should always keep an open mind and try and understand what an item actually is, rather than what its price 'dictates' it should be.
  
 So I'll ask: which word best describes the H10, budget or bargain?
  
_Keep on digging._


----------



## Koolpep

bassdigger said:


> If you're talking about the Gustard H10, it seems that the better word might be 'bargain', rather than 'budget'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It's a rhetorical question: bargain, no doubt.


----------



## BassDigger

koolpep said:


> It's a rhetorical question:...


 
  
 Yeah, sorry; the question was kind of an afterthought


----------



## MattTCG

I've got just a bit of wiggle with the volume knob. I can't seem to find the allen wrench that fits the set screw. Does anyone know what it takes?


----------



## xevman

bassdigger said:


> If you're talking about the Gustard H10, it seems that the better word might be 'bargain', rather than 'budget'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 No denying the performance of this amp is high end. Would not dare to call it a budget or midfi amplifier just because of its price point as its performance certainly isnt


----------



## Noodlz

Ok. so upon stumbling upon this thread, i've been reading every page until 80 or so for the last couple days. Was going to wait for the next massdrop...but now I've now given in and bought it on ebay (pollychen). It just sounds like too much awesome to wait much longer. Now to get them in, burn in, and connect them with my LCD-2!


----------



## xevman

noodlz said:


> Ok. so upon stumbling upon this thread, i've been reading every page until 80 or so for the last couple days. Was going to wait for the next massdrop...but now I've now given in and bought it on ebay (pollychen). It just sounds like too much awesome to wait much longer. Now to get them in, burn in, and connect them with my LCD-2!


 
 LCD-2 will love this amp because of the current it puts out at the given ohm rating. I can almost guarantee you it will be a great match.


----------



## MattTCG

What was the MD price that I missed btw?


----------



## Kozic

$300 + $11 shipping to U.S.


matttcg said:


> What was the MD price that I missed btw?


----------



## goobicii

couple questions
  
 1. the gustard is balanced amp like 4 board Beta 22 or V281?
  
 2. I heard opinion its better than V200,but is it better than V281? 281 is fully truly balanced but it doesnt have separate power suply I heard thats superior to internal ps...


----------



## icebrain1

I heard an h10 in a meet over here, and I was pretty blown away. It sounded better (for my taste) than the Lyr2 and even amps which cost multiples of the h10.

 I'm currently using he-400s powered by a Schiit Vali, I was originally planning on a lyr2 but after I heard the h10 I fell in love with it.

 Just something I'm wandering I only really tested it with the he-400s, and it really brought out the mids (which I prefer). How do you think it will perform with other driver types (cause I hope to use it with a variety of headphones in the future)?
 Ps, I couldn't find any info on the web saying how much power the h10 can supply to different ohm HPs any one got a clue?


----------



## BassDigger

I think I need to start another thread; I'll call it "Got questions, but can't be bothered to research? Want someone to do it for you? Post here."
  
 Surely, if these posters were truly interested, they'd have a look for themselves?!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Icebrain, have a look at post No.1


----------



## stuartmc

icebrain1 said:


> I heard an h10 in a meet over here, and I was pretty blown away. It sounded better (for my taste) than the Lyr2 and even amps which cost multiples of the h10.
> 
> 
> I'm currently using he-400s powered by a Schiit Vali, I was originally planning on a lyr2 but after I heard the h10 I fell in love with it.
> ...



Look at the very first page of this thread. You will find these stats there. For instance, the H10 will put out 2.7W into the 50 ohm load of my HE-560's while having a damping factor greater than 400. If you are into numbers, That=Killer.


----------



## Koolpep

icebrain1 said:


> I heard an h10 in a meet over here, and I was pretty blown away. It sounded better (for my taste) than the Lyr2 and even amps which cost multiples of the h10.
> 
> I'm currently using he-400s powered by a Schiit Vali, I was originally planning on a lyr2 but after I heard the h10 I fell in love with it.
> 
> ...


 

1000mW @ 16 Ohm????mW @ 25 Ohm2000mW @ 32 Ohm2700mW @ 50 Ohm????mW @ 64 Ohm2200mW @ 100 Ohm????mW @ 200 Ohm????mW @ 300 Ohm570mW @ 600 Ohm1 Ohm Output impedance     
   
So that would look like this (missing data points extrapolated):

  

  
 This is not official and the values are taken from the V200...which the H10 is supposed to mirror spec wise....
  
 Hope this helps....


----------



## Lohb

The balanced version H20 will be able to run full range cones from the likes of Audio Nirvana by hooking them into an XLR plug at front = hack to speaker amping....maybe....those cones need less than 2 watts.
  
 Wonder when they will announce more info.


----------



## goobicii

lohb said:


> The balanced version H20 will be able to run full range cones from the likes of Audio Nirvana by hooking them into an XLR plug at front = hack to speaker amping....maybe....those cones need less than 2 watts.
> 
> Wonder when they will announce more info.


 
  
 there would be H20 a fully balanced H10?


----------



## Lohb

goobicii said:


> there would be H20 a fully balanced H10?


 

 Yes, in the works. dubbed h20 by community. No official model name yet.


----------



## goobicii

lohb said:


> Yes, in the works. dubbed h20 by community. No official model name yet.


 
  
 release date?    do you think V281 from Lakepeople Violelectric is better,but it have internal powersupply and gustard have separate


----------



## icebrain1

koolpep said:


> 1000mW @ 16 Ohm????mW @ 25 Ohm2000mW @ 32 Ohm2700mW @ 50 Ohm????mW @ 64 Ohm2200mW @ 100 Ohm????mW @ 200 Ohm????mW @ 300 Ohm570mW @ 600 Ohm1 Ohm Output impedance
> 
> So that would look like this (missing data points extrapolated):
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a ton, bro that's really helpful, I've been checking forever online.
 Never thought of checking it using the v200 specs, very smart thanks. 
 It has quite a bit of power for a solid state amp, about 4 times more than my Vali into 32 ohm seems pretty great, about half the power of the lyr2 at lower ohms but supplies much more into 600 ohms pretty interesting, seemds like it will be great with pretty much much anything, and with all the gain options on the back, It seems like it would work great with everything. Thanks. 
  
  
  
  
 There's a h20 in the works didn't know that, any clue on when it would be released? and do you guys think it would sound similar sound sig (really love the h10 sound wise) wise and be a general improvement, hopefully with a full balanced path?  Hope it stays about the same price or at least not much higher.
  
  
  
  


bassdigger said:


> I think I need to start another thread; I'll call it "Got questions, but can't be bothered to research? Want someone to do it for you? Post here."
> 
> Surely, if these posters were truly interested, they'd have a look for themselves?!?
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, just reread the the 1st post. I missed the output power section thank you.
  
 Thanks for the info guys.


----------



## DreamKing

matttcg said:


> I've got just a bit of wiggle with the volume knob. I can't seem to find the allen wrench that fits the set screw. Does anyone know what it takes?


 
  
 As seen in one of the most recent images in the thread, I used my drill with bits that fit the screws.


----------



## DreamKing

Something tells me H20 will be a clone of the V220 from what you just described, if that's the case then I'm not gonna upgrade from the H10. If they clone the V281 though...it's gonna break my world, must buy.
  


lohb said:


> The balanced version H20 will be able to run full range cones from the likes of Audio Nirvana by hooking them into an XLR plug at front = hack to speaker amping....maybe....those cones need less than 2 watts.
> 
> Wonder when they will announce more info.


----------



## rawrster

Hell if they clone the V281 I'll buy one too even though I don't need an amp. It won't be cheap however.


----------



## DreamKing

Relatively speaking it won't be cheap but coming from Gustard...It will no doubt be a bargain
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 **However, I don't wanna entice excitement just yet. This all hypothetical only at this point.


----------



## rawrster

dreamking said:


> Relatively speaking it won't be cheap but coming from Gustard...It will no doubt be a bargain
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hypothetical of course  Who wouldn't want a 2k amp that costs much less. I love bang for your buck gear. I used to purchase those type of gear when I just got started in this hobby.
  
 I kinda regret not getting this amp when I had the chance. I was skeptical about such an amp since there wasn't that much information out there yet even though it had the backing of FlySweep. I wasn't too sure about its resale value then...


----------



## icebrain1

stuartmc said:


> Look at the very first page of this thread. You will find these stats there. For instance, the H10 will put out 2.7W into the 50 ohm load of my HE-560's while having a damping factor greater than 400. If you are into numbers, That=Killer.



Thanks.


----------



## SodaBoy

I actually believe that the hypothetical H20 will not be a clone. IMO, it will be an original clean sheet design like the X8, X9, X10, X12 and the new X20. I have seen this pattern in the past with companies like Matrix. They were a pretty small unknown company until they cloned the Lehmann BCL, which was all the rage back then as it was Sennheiser's showcase amp with the then new flagship HD800. I have never heard their BCL clone but from all reports it sounded pretty damn good and it put their name on the map. Once they had the brand and the capital, they started developing original designs like the X-SABRE which became a TOTL ES9018 implementation.
  
 I think when it's done we will have to judge the hypothetical H20 by its own merits.


----------



## DreamKing

sodaboy said:


> I think when it's done we will have to judge the hypothetical H20 by its own merits.


 
  
 Agreed. Even if it's a clone at its base, its design might differ in some instances like the H10 to the V200.


----------



## goobicii

sodaboy said:


> I actually believe that the hypothetical H20 will not be a clone. IMO, it will be an original clean sheet design like the X8, X9, X10, X12 and the new X20. I have seen this pattern in the past with companies like Matrix. They were a pretty small unknown company until they cloned the Lehmann BCL, which was all the rage back then as it was Sennheiser's showcase amp with the then new flagship HD800. I have never heard their BCL clone but from all reports it sounded pretty damn good and it put their name on the map. Once they had the brand and the capital, they started developing original designs like the X-SABRE which became a TOTL ES9018 implementation.
> 
> I think when it's done we will have to judge the hypothetical H20 by its own merits.


 
  
 I dont think so
  
 its much easier and faster to make  H10 just double it for fully balanced and you have bestseller hit at minimum R&D cost,considering how popular,famous and good selling H10 is,it doesnt make bussiness sense to fix something thats arguably end game SS amp,everybody just wants H10  balanced,why would they develop something brand new when they have guaranted homerun with just making it balanced,simple and effective
  
  
 dont really know why bother with new amp,the V200 is superb unique a SS thats extremly euphonic,one of warmest SS amps while also being smooth and pleasant in top end,and the midrange! really makes no sense to spend alot to develop something new when you can just copy violectric,make it even better with separate power supply and be done with it at 300 price making a head fi hit,then you just make it balanced and you have for 600 world best headphone amp


----------



## rawrster

I would prefer a company to spend the time to make their own product. A company constantly copying others just means that their staff is terrible and unable to develop anything. I'm not sure how much Gustard is selling but my guess is that have a while to go. It's still relatively new in popularity so I doubt it is selling more than they can make.
  
  
 Also, while the V200 is good it is not perfect. There were areas of improvement to be made.


----------



## xevman

rawrster said:


> I would prefer a company to spend the time to make their own product. A company constantly copying others just means that their staff is terrible and unable to develop anything. I'm not sure how much Gustard is selling but my guess is that have a while to go. It's still relatively new in popularity so I doubt it is selling more than they can make.
> 
> 
> Also, while the V200 is good it is not perfect. There were areas of improvement to be made.


 
 IMO the whole point of the H10 was to be a clone of the V200 to draw attention to the company. When people hear there is a v200 clone with improved hardware for less coin they will jump on it straight away and spread the word in turn good for the marketing and reputation of Gustard. We've seen with their dacs that they are capable of designing their own products. Same situation with Matrix and the BCL clone.


----------



## rawrster

My post was more in response to goobcii's post as to why shouldn't they just constantly copy Violectric's newer models, do a few tweaks and call it their own. 
  
 If they have the H10 and then start developing their own amps I'm all for it and may purchase one down the road. A clone of a high end amp would be very tempting but something that's unique and made by them is something that would interest me more.


----------



## DreamKing

I think making it seem like they are a company that copy left and right is disingenuous. Though, with the H10 in particular the precedence was set, they still improved on the V200's design. They don't sound exactly the same either from those that compared them. And like others mentioned, their original DAC tally speaks for itself. 
 Best to just wait and see what happens next. My what if scenario has gone too far


----------



## DreamKing

rawrster said:


> My post was more in response to goobcii's post as to why shouldn't they just constantly copy Violectric's newer models, do a few tweaks and call it their own.
> 
> If they have the H10 and then start developing their own amps I'm all for it and may purchase one down the road. A clone of a high end amp would be very tempting but something that's unique and made by them is something that would interest me more.


 
  
 Just read this post and see your point now. Something unique and better would be preferred by all, no doubt about it.


----------



## Lohb

There are various topologies that can be classed as balanced, dual-mono etc and *members extrapolating the price to double based on supposed doubling of internals* which it does not have to be...may go against (pump) the final price.
  
  
 So yes, as others have said let's wait and see, instead of putting ideas in their head when it might just be a modest increase of price for an XLR output plug


----------



## ansi

xevman said:


> IMO the whole point of the H10 was to be a clone of the V200 to draw attention to the company. When people hear there is a v200 clone with improved hardware for less coin they will jump on it straight away and spread the word in turn good for the marketing and reputation of Gustard. We've seen with their dacs that they are capable of designing their own products. Same situation with Matrix and the BCL clone.


 
  
 H10 was not intended as a clone of V200, it was based on Chinese DIY community designs that were popular at the time. Now those designs may have been based on V200, but it was by no means intentional from Gustard. It was an amp that the community in China wanted, so they went ahead with it.
  
 Trust me, Gustard doesn't do any clever marketing. Or any marketing. They're lucky that people have spread the word, otherwise nobody outside China would have heard of their products.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

matttcg said:


> I plugged in the h10 with: hd650, lcd2f, el8 closed. I got the amp used and it has about 100 hours on it. First impression...:eek: . There is no way that this amp should sound this good. I've had a few good hours with the h10, so these are early impressions.
> 
> *laser tight control of the driver from this amp on ALL hp that I've auditioned it with. The net result is that I feel that I'm getting an exceptional pairing with each hp that I've used it with.
> 
> ...




Wonderful review. Yes.


----------



## MattTCG

^^ Haha, not a review but just a few thoughts. After listening to the h10 for the weekend, if anything I'm more impressed with the h10. I think that the used unit I bought needed a little more play time and just seems to sound better each time I sit down to listen to it. For the last few years I've been on the Schiit wagon because of the value they offered with their products. But since I got the h10, the Schiit has been collecting dust. I haven't turned on the lyr 2 in several days now.


----------



## BassDigger

icebrain1 said:


> ...
> 
> Thanks, just reread the the 1st post. I missed the output power section thank you.
> 
> Thanks for the info guys.


 
  
 Cool. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Didn't really mean to direct my 'snarkiness' at you; it was more the post before yours that set off my mini-rant; your (already discussed) question, at the end of your contribution, just jettisoned the dummy from my already pouting lips! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I guess that there're very few phones that the H10 doesn't match up with!


----------



## BassDigger

ansi said:


> H10 was not intended as a clone of V200, it was based on Chinese DIY community designs that were popular at the time. Now those designs may have been based on V200, but it was by no means intentional from Gustard. It was an amp that the community in China wanted, so they went ahead with it.
> 
> Trust me, Gustard doesn't do any clever marketing. Or any marketing. They're lucky that people have spread the word, otherwise nobody outside China would have heard of their products.


 
  
 Do I hear some background knowledge? What do you know about the forerunners of this amp? What were those Chinese DIYers knocking together, whilst they breathed the solder fumes ('cos they thought that that was what fresh air was supposed to smell like!)?
  
 Your location appears to be Bejing; I'd be very interested to read about anything to do with the H10 and it's homeland!


----------



## ansi

bassdigger said:


> Do I hear some background knowledge? What do you know about the forerunners of this amp? What were those Chinese DIYers knocking together, whilst they breathed the solder fumes ('cos they thought that that was what fresh air was supposed to smell like!)?
> 
> Your location appears to be Bejing; I'd be very interested to read about anything to do with the H10 and it's homeland!


 
  
 The founders told me about their history when I met them a while back. I didn't actually ask much about H10 specifically since everyone was just interested in X20 and the upcoming balanced amp. If you want to know more about Gustard, find my posts in the general thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs


----------



## icebrain1

bassdigger said:


> Cool. :bigsmile_face:  Didn't really mean to direct my 'snarkiness' at you; it was more the post before yours that set off my mini-rant; your (already discussed) question, at the end of your contribution, just jettisoned the dummy from my already pouting lips! :confused_face:
> 
> I guess that there're very few phones that the H10 doesn't match up with!




Np at all, I kinda diserved it anyways. Sometimes it can be easier to get the opinions of others more expieirenced instead of reling on ones (my) own research, which is kinda what I ended up doing. 

Thanks.


----------



## rawrster

ansi said:


> The founders told me about their history when I met them a while back. I didn't actually ask much about H10 specifically since everyone was just interested in X20 and the upcoming balanced amp. If you want to know more about Gustard, find my posts in the general thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs


 
  
 That's a good read. It looks like I'll wait for their new dac to come out. It also seems like a lot of their products end up on massdrop as well..


----------



## Liu Junyuan

matttcg said:


> ^^ Haha, not a review but just a few thoughts. After listening to the h10 for the weekend, if anything I'm more impressed with the h10. I think that the used unit I bought needed a little more play time and just seems to sound better each time I sit down to listen to it. For the last few years I've been on the Schiit wagon because of the value they offered with their products. But since I got the h10, the Schiit has been collecting dust. I haven't turned on the lyr 2 in several days now.




The same with my Lyr. With time I return to it though and appreciate it for the holographic sound and the punchy dynamics. Some recordings I prefer the Lyr. 

However I had a very nice session two days ago on the H10 via HE-500 listening to Massive Attack's _Mezzanine_, which is a well recorded album. 

Chain was Foobar WASAPI FLAC-->Gustard U12-->Theta Progeny-->Gustard H10-->HE-500 with grill and fuzzor mods, Focus Pad-A and PlusSound occ cable. Really a lovely listening experience.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

I was about to get H10, but after hearing from here that H20 are in the works, should I wait?! :/


----------



## BassDigger

fattycheesebeef said:


> I was about to get H10, but after hearing from here that H20 are in the works, should I wait?! :/


 
  
 Oh no!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Don't say that! What about everyone else, who (like me) haven't bought theirs yet; should we all wait?
  
 There are too many ifs and buts.
 So, I guess that it depends on your needs, your reason for wanting one and how important the (rumoured) balanced output is for you.


----------



## Lorspeaker

if u are plannjng to go "balanced"....
bslanced dac...cans recabled to balanced.


----------



## ansi

bassdigger said:


> Oh no!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think we can say confirmed balanced output. I mean, that's the only thing we know about the amp. When Gustard talks about "a new balanced amp" it'd be pretty surprising if it was not balanced 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Besides, it probably will be out in December or something. A long wait.


----------



## DecentLevi

fattycheesebeef said:


> I was about to get H10, but after hearing from here that H20 are in the works, should I wait?! :/


 
 As far as I understand, the H20 doesn't even exist yet but it's only speculation. If anything, get the H10 on sale or used, or consider the Beresford Capella amp, which has some breakthrough and unique features and is cheaper.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Hey Levi, how is the Capella powered...if u dun mind a quick answer..
 thru a wall wart...or draw from the dac...or battery powered correct?


----------



## Stude

Hi guys,
 I have read the whole thread about this wonderful amp and I really want to pull the trigger on it. My HE-560 sit on the table and FiiO E12 does not have enough power to feed them :/ Could you help me with my buing decision about from which seller order this precious black gem? 
  
 1st option: 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hi-end-H-10-high-current-Class-A-headphone-amp-amplifier-CL-170-/121485757700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_71&hash=item1c491d8d04
 Does anyone have any experience with this seller?
 I am from EU and Ebay says that item will be sent from Ireland -> No additional 21% VAT on customs for me (hoping...).
  
 Second option is buying from pollychen0306* *with 12% off for 352$. Does anyone know if the price includes DHL shipping or how much is for DHL to Central Europe (approximatelly)? I wrote to pollychen but I had not received his answer yet 
  
 Last option is from Aliexpress - http://www.aliexpress.com/item/GUSTARD-H10-amp-high-current-Class-A-Headphone-Amplifier-AC115V-230V/32264637987.html for 340$ but without 1 year warranty and no info about declaration value for customs.
  
 What would you pick? 
 Thx very much


----------



## SodaBoy

stude said:


> Hi guys,
> I have read the whole thread about this wonderful amp and I really want to pull the trigger on it. My HE-560 sit on the table and FiiO E12 does not have enough power to feed them :/ Could you help me with my buing decision about from which seller order this precious black gem?
> 
> 1st option:
> ...


 

 I don't see how the first option is being shipped from Ireland, you need to contact the seller and verify yourself. The seller information lists them being in China, and unless they have a registered company in the EU, I don't see how you will be exempt from tariffs. The best you can expect is for them to mark the price down which they always do, so you get fleeced a little less in the mercantilist EU.


----------



## DreamKing

lorspeaker said:


> if u are plannjng to go "balanced"....
> bslanced dac...cans recabled to balanced.


 
  
 +1. You're gonna need a complete balanced system added to the fact that balanced for _typically_ short interconnects/cables found in headphone configurations have realistically no advantage whatsoever.


----------



## Lorspeaker

i hear better separation, wider soundstage  on my balanced audiogd dac/amp on my dt770 / hd650 /D7k ...say 5 to 10%..
 definitely noticeable...not sure if that adds to enjoyment greatly...
 so one must consider the cost/value added.


----------



## DreamKing

lorspeaker said:


> Hey Levi, how is the Capella powered...if u dun mind a quick answer..
> thru a wall wart...or draw from the dac...or battery powered correct?


 
  
 Battery works best from my experience with it. Separate provided power, completely clean sound. The included 15V power supply has immediately noticeable noise in comparison.


----------



## SodaBoy

The funny thing about the H10 is that crosstalk is very low at -110dB@1khz because it is essentially a dual mono design.


----------



## xevman

sodaboy said:


> The funny thing about the H10 is that crosstalk is very low at -110dB@1khz because it is essentially a dual mono design.


 
 correct


----------



## fattycheesebeef

Am searching for a H10 used but to no avail. Which DAC shall I pair it with? X12 or other brands?


----------



## Lorspeaker

both have similar form factor?


----------



## SodaBoy

fattycheesebeef said:


> Am searching for a H10 used but to no avail. Which DAC shall I pair it with? X12 or other brands?


 

 The X12 seems like a no brainer. It stacks perfectly with the H10 and is easily affordable. Both are fully balanced as well. I'm probably going to sell my X12 and U12 when the X20 comes out.
  
 Here's natra084's stack


----------



## DreamKing

sodaboy said:


> Both are fully balanced as well.


 
  
 The H10 doesn't have a balanced output so isn't fully balanced.


----------



## SodaBoy

dreamking said:


> The H10 doesn't have a balanced output so isn't fully balanced.


 

 Sorry it's been a long day. Meant to say the X12 has a fully differential output, and the H10 a fully differential input.


----------



## DreamKing

No sweat.


----------



## SodaBoy

Come to think about it, this does tie back to what I said a few posts earlier though, the H10, like the V200 is similar in that they are essentially internally balanced, or "dual mono". The signal is summed at the end and output in SE, which is why the H10 has such low crosstalk. It's an interesting setup to be sure. It reminds me of "The Wire" project on diyaudio, with its bal-se module.


----------



## fritobugger

fattycheesebeef said:


> Am searching for a H10 used but to no avail. Which DAC shall I pair it with? X12 or other brands?




I am using the SMSL M8. Works well for me. Brightness of the Sabre chip nicely smoothed by the H10.


----------



## CingKrab

I am planning on trying a TEAC UD-310.  Seems like a good deal with the 100 rebate from TEAC USA right now.  Fully balanced outs to preserve the awesome low crosstalk.  Hopefully the combo together won't be too polite.


----------



## DreamKing

sodaboy said:


> Come to think about it, this does tie back to what I said a few posts earlier though, the H10, like the V200 is similar in that they are essentially internally balanced, or "dual mono". The signal is summed at the end and output in SE, which is why the H10 has such low crosstalk. It's an interesting setup to be sure. It reminds me of "The Wire" project on diyaudio, with its bal-se module.


 
  
 Interesting for sure, personally I find the H10 great as is. It ticks all my boxes when used in conjunction with my preamp. Noise floor is inaudible, crosstalk is well beyond inaudible. No issues on the volume pot on my unit. If the output impedance is the same as the V200 as well, <0.06 ohms (from Violectric's FAQ page), that's very impressive too, since output impedance can make more audible difference with dynamic headphones if too high. Though, I assume all reference measurements should be identical to the V200's. Given that all the ones from the first post of this thread are identical to those found in the V200's user's manual*(link to it, under 'TECHNICAL DATA HPA V200').
  
 Maybe not so much a surprise that the amp measures so great, when you take into account the above and @ansi's summary of its history.


----------



## sunneebear

Just got mine in today from the Massdrop deal.  Best $300 I ever spent. Straight out of the box, just wow!


----------



## SodaBoy

sunneebear said:


> Just got mine in today from the Massdrop deal.  Best $300 I ever spent. Straight out of the box, just wow!


 

 Lol you know Massdrop shipping costs so much here, I just treat it like a product catalog and buy somewhere else. Grats on your purchase tho


----------



## pearljam50000

I misses the drop ):


----------



## Arnotts

Finally got my DT880's back.
  
 Magnificent pairing with the H10 + X12. Fantastic clarity with no sibilance.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

The price of X12 & H10 costs about the same as Oppo HA1?


----------



## SodaBoy

fattycheesebeef said:


> The price of X12 & H10 costs about the same as Oppo HA1?


 

 Should cost like $300 less.


----------



## xevman

fattycheesebeef said:


> The price of X12 & H10 costs about the same as Oppo HA1?


 
 I can almost guarantee you the single ended output on the Gustard H10 would be superior to the single ended output on the HA1. On most balanced amplifiers the single ended output is more of a 'Oh look we just finished our fully balanced headphone amplifier should we add an option for single ended? Yeah ok' you get what I mean. I'm not going to comment on the balanced output though.


----------



## BassDigger

xevman said:


> I can almost guarantee you the single ended output on the Gustard H10 would be superior to the single ended output on the HA1. *On* *most balanced amplifiers the single ended output is more of a 'Oh look we just finished our fully balanced headphone amplifier should we add an option for single ended? Yeah ok'* you get what I mean. I'm not going to comment on the balanced output though.


 
  
 This is exactly why I hope that the up-market, balanced (codename H20) Gustard amp isn't biased for balanced use; I hope they seriously consider the single ended user.
 The real difference between balanced and singled ended, is more to do with the cabling; it makes the connections less cable dependent, especially over longer runs.
 But the real difference in performance, experienced by most listeners, is that of a compromised single ended output, because the designers have focused of the balanced circuit configuration. Besides, I've read some pretty convincing expert testimony that says balanced headphone amps are even inferior and a white elephant!


----------



## xevman

bassdigger said:


> This is exactly why I hope that the up-market, balanced (codename H20) Gustard amp isn't biased for balanced use; I hope they seriously consider the single ended user.
> The real difference between balanced and singled ended, is more to do with the cabling; it makes the connections less cable dependent, especially over longer runs.
> But the real difference in performance, experienced by most listeners, is that of a compromised single ended output, because the designers have focused of the balanced circuit configuration. Besides, I've read some pretty convincing expert testimony that says balanced headphone amps are even inferior and a white elephant!


 
 Finally someone who sees this, for an amplifier to be properly balanced it needs to have balanced inputs and circuitry aswell as a balanced output, otherwise it defeats the whole purpose. A lot of people seem to think the only real difference between balanced amps is the input and output. Personally there is no point to buying a balanced amplifier if you are planning on using the single ended output (as its a compromise better off with a amp designed for single ended use specifically). It would be better to have a balanced only amplifier aswell as one specifically designed for single ended use. Best of both worlds without a compromised single ended output.

 It wouldn't surprise me if the balanced H20 is balanced only H10 as its very easy to adapt the H10 design to balanced due to its dual mono design. I can see them releasing a fully balanced version of the H10 without the single ended output.

 Also the comment about the single ended output of the HA1, it actually has considerably more cross talk and slightly more harmonic distortion when compared to the Gustard although this probably isnt audible and If I had the HA1 I wouldn't even bother with the single ended output.


----------



## DreamKing

bassdigger said:


> This is exactly why I hope that the up-market, balanced (codename H20) Gustard amp isn't biased for balanced use; I hope they seriously consider the single ended user.
> The real difference between balanced and singled ended, is more to do with the cabling; it makes the connections less cable dependent, especially over longer runs.
> *But the real difference in performance, experienced by most listeners, is that of a compromised single ended output, because the designers have focused of the balanced circuit configuration.* Besides, I've read some pretty convincing expert testimony that says balanced headphone amps are even inferior and a white elephant!


 
  
 Bingo, jackpot, winner. They aren't equally designed in the end whenever a difference is audible. Any amp like that is dubious to the engineers' intent in making the best amp they could IMHO. It's why the H10 is so great. Hopefully, the next Gustard amp doesn't fall in this category.


----------



## MattTCG

I'm curious as to why the h10 does not get that hot even after extended use. It's class A right? Not that it makes that much difference on how I feel about this amp. Just curious mostly.


----------



## sunneebear

Was just wondering that myself. Have it on since I got it yesterday and it's not even warm.


----------



## rawrster

bassdigger said:


> This is exactly why I hope that the up-market, balanced (codename H20) Gustard amp isn't biased for balanced use; I hope they seriously consider the single ended user.
> The real difference between balanced and singled ended, is more to do with the cabling; it makes the connections less cable dependent, especially over longer runs.
> But the real difference in performance, experienced by most listeners, is that of a compromised single ended output, because the designers have focused of the balanced circuit configuration. Besides, I've read some pretty convincing expert testimony that says balanced headphone amps are even inferior and a white elephant!


 
  
 I think there is where many members (especially those new to the hobby) get the belief that balanced is better. It just so happens that many of the better amps happen to be balanced. The draw for many people is balanced and may not even consider the amp as high end if it is not balanced. The single ended is not very important and just a throw in for good reason. I probably wouldn't even give the single ended option if I was designing the amp such as the Schiit Mjolnir. I'm hoping the Gustard balanced amp doesn't offer a SE output but chances of that are low.
  
 There are of course very good single ended amps and terrible balanced amps. 
  


matttcg said:


> I'm curious as to why the h10 does not get that hot even after extended use. It's class A right? Not that it makes that much difference on how I feel about this amp. Just curious mostly.


 
  
 I believe the V200 is AB.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

In regards to the HA-1, it outputs 4 x the power via balanced, but single-ended sounded very nice with my Sennheisers with the gain set to high (did not have balanced cables for these). For the HE-560s, I used xlr connection, which it definitely needs on that amp. I am curious as to how the Senns would have sounded via balanced though. 

Balanced is not necessarily inherently better; it depends on the topology of the amp itself. In the cases where amps are designed as balanced throughout (Rag, HA-1), you are definitely maximizing the potential insofar as it concerns that particular amp. 

I think the H10 is still competitive if not superior for my tastes to the balanced out for the HA-1, which out out comparable power. I have never heard the X12, but I would wager from impressions it would be a smoother and less bright iteration of the Sabre than the HA-1's, which I did not find all that bright anyways but definitely moreso than my Gungnir at the time. 

For the HA-1, a significant portion of that price is going toward the extra features it delivers in addition to the sonics. It is also extremely well-constructed if not beautifully so, and Oppo's warranty/customer service is exceptional. My father owns the HA-1 fwiw. And also fwiw, I am just as happy if not moreso with my setup (since I do not need those features).

What I still wish to see would be a comparison between the HA-1 and the NFB-28, both of which are extremely analogous, and both of those with the H10 and X12. Since this is the Gustard thread, let us just suspect the X12/H10 surpasses them both. lol


----------



## DreamKing

rawrster said:


> I believe the V200 is AB.


 
  
 V200 is claimed to be class-A from this source: http://www.lake-people.de/violectric-reviews.html?file=tl_files/Standard_Theme/downloads/Reviews/V200%20Review%20in%20HiFi%20Statement.pdf. Straight from Lake People's website. I think there is something to it if they would choose to host it. The headfonia review claimed it was an AB design and then it was restated in reviews on head-fi.
  
 However, about the only thing I'm curious about the H10 is the gain settings resulting in audible sound changes particularly to the HF. This would be commonly nullified in a class A design. source for why: http://sound.westhost.com/class-a.htm (search for 'gain' in Class-A benefits) and http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/amplifier/amplifier-classes.html


----------



## xevman

matttcg said:


> I'm curious as to why the h10 does not get that hot even after extended use. It's class A right? Not that it makes that much difference on how I feel about this amp. Just curious mostly.




Believe me it does get extremely hot after extended use if you take the lid off the amp and touch the heatsink the transistors are on its very hot. The only reason the amplifier case only gets only luke warm after extended use is because unlike many other class a amps the Gustard doesn't use the case as a heatsink.


----------



## MattTCG

xevman said:


> Believe me it does get extremely hot after extended use if you take the lid off the amp and touch the heatsink the transistors are on its very hot. The only reason the amplifier case only gets only luke warm after extended use is because unlike many other class a amps the Gustard doesn't use the case as a heatsink.


 
 I'm not sure that your explanation hold water. The Schiit amps use the case as a passive radiator and they get very hot to the touch. Meaning fry an egg on it hot. If the h10 is generating that same class A kind of heat and not using the case to disapate heat then that would be cause for concern.


----------



## genclaymore

matttcg said:


> I'm not sure that your explanation hold water. The Schiit amps use the case as a passive radiator and they get very hot to the touch. Meaning fry an egg on it hot. If the h10 is generating that same class A kind of heat and not using the case to disapate heat then that would be cause for concern.


 

 Yea or your fingers if you try to move it after it been on for a long while, I almost dropped the asgard 2 twice because of that in a small game of hot potato.


----------



## stuartmc

matttcg said:


> I'm not sure that your explanation hold water. The Schiit amps use the case as a passive radiator and they get very hot to the touch. Meaning fry an egg on it hot. If the h10 is generating that same class A kind of heat and not using the case to disapate heat then that would be cause for concern.


 
 My casual observations would suggest that it does hold water.  When I look at the H10 internals the transistors are attached to a rather long and thick metal heatsink. The case enclosure itself is rather spacious, allowing the heatsink to dissipate its heat to the surrounding airspace without substantially heating up the case surfaces.  Heatsinks will prevent the base-emitter temperature from rising and in addition they will release heat to atmosphere more slowly, maintaining a lower average ambient temperature. 

  
 In comparison, the Asgard 2 has no such massive internal heatsink so the heat generated by the base-emitter is more likely to rise and will increase the internal air space temperature exponentially and so too the case surfaces.
  

  
  I'm no electrical engineer, but I think there is also a range of biasing in Class A circuits that will definitely effect temperature. If the current the Asgard passes at its quiescent point is higher than that of the H10, it is also going to generate more heat.


----------



## sunneebear

Probably means the power transistors in the H10 operate at a low temp.  There are some amps that have chassis mounted transistors that get lukewarm like the H10 and there are pc board mounted heat sink amps that can almost fry an egg.  Just the operating temp the transistors where designed for.  My guess.


----------



## icebrain1

Thanks for the convo about balanced. I was kinda biased thinking that balanced amps are better than unbalanced, wheather you are using balnced or not. So thanks for for sharing, that would also mean for my usage I shoud'nt hold out for the h20.since I dont think I will be able to afford a full balanced setup for quite awhile.

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

I'm need some advice on Dacs to pair with H10 now. 
(Sort by price)
1) X12
2) Geek Pulse X Fi (second hand)
3) SMSL M8


----------



## fritobugger

fattycheesebeef said:


> I'm need some advice on Dacs to pair with H10 now.
> (Sort by price)
> 1) X12
> 2) Geek Pulse X Fi (second hand)
> 3) SMSL M8




I am very happy with the M8. I wish there was a more clear difference in the filters and better setup documentation but the sound, size, and price are very good.


----------



## xevman

fritobugger said:


> I am very happy with the M8. I wish there was a more clear difference in the filters and better setup documentation but the sound, size, and price are very good.


 
 im thining of upgrading to the smsl m8 but questioning whether its really an upgrade from my DacMagic 100 with WM8742. If the sabre chip is well implemented it definitely will be.


----------



## olek

stuartmc said:


> My casual observations would suggest that it does hold water.  When I look at the H10 internals the transistors are attached to a rather long and thick metal heatsink. The case enclosure itself is rather spacious, allowing the heatsink to dissipate its heat to the surrounding airspace without substantially heating up the case surfaces.  Heatsinks will prevent the base-emitter temperature from rising and in addition they will release heat to atmosphere more slowly, maintaining a lower average ambient temperature.


 
  
  
 Captain, with all due respect, can't quite agree here. What you say would be totally correct if there were ventilation openings in the case of H10. Given that it is sealed enclosure, heatsink inside helps to slow down heating of the case, but eventually temperature of the case would be the same, with or without heatsink. Laws of physic are strict, and they  say that since enclosure is closed (no pun intended), it can only lose heat by transferring it from case to air and radiating it from the case.
  
 Totally agree with your point on biasing in Class A. Schiit preference to biasing is obviously 'sky is the limit'. I do understand why tube-based Crack gets scorching hot after prolonged listening - peculiarities of technology, pretty much unavoidable. Do not understand why Asgard has to be same way. But hey, as long as it works...


----------



## olek

arnotts said:


> Finally got my DT880's back.
> 
> Magnificent pairing with the H10 + X12. Fantastic clarity with no sibilance.


 

 Totally agreed. I also quite enjoy DT880/600 with H10. Very good pairing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 With DT880, it is eerie how how similar H10's sound is to Crack with Speedball, provided that tubes installed are neutral (and yes, that is a good thing). I had mine setup yesterday with GE 5814A for driver tube (and GE 6080 output tube that I just leave alone), and I am sure that I would not be able to tell them apart in blind test. Crack still has a bit extra 'magic in the air' that I can not explain (maybe imaginary), but overall very, very similar sound.
  
 Now, with Crack I am able to roll tubes and put RCA 12AU7 'clear top' for sound that has slightly brighter highs and  a bit thumpier lows, making Crack sound more forward (somebody said that sound was not harsh, but light-footed and bubbly, and there is something to that). Or I could put RCA 5814A for a tiny bit of extra warmth. Or RCA 5963 if more warmth is desired. Or stock Sperry 823623 tube if quite warm sound is desired (works awesome for movies). Now, there is also Sylvania 12AU7A that sounds quite like H10, but drier, with slight brittleness in the sound. Enough, I know I have bored you already 
  
 All those tubes that I was able to get my hands on are great in my opinion, and it is just fun to tweak sound a bit here and there just by rolling a different tube.
  
 Now, H10 does not make your air conditioner work harder, it is not so sensitive to ground loops, it has lower noise floor, higher max gain, better RF rejection, is compatible with headphones of any (imaginable) impedance, is said to be great with planars, does not require soldering skills, is cheaper to boot, and with high impedance dynamic phones sounds 98% as good as Crack (to my ears). Quite a no-brainer choice for a reasonable sane person.
  
 Of course, who said I am sane...


----------



## lugnut

matttcg said:


> ^^ Haha, not a review but just a few thoughts. After listening to the h10 for the weekend, if anything I'm more impressed with the h10. I think that the used unit I bought needed a little more play time and just seems to sound better each time I sit down to listen to it. For the last few years I've been on the Schiit wagon because of the value they offered with their products. But since I got the h10, the Schiit has been collecting dust. I haven't turned on the lyr 2 in several days now.


 
 What are your thoughts on the H10 sound compared to the sound of the Liquid Carbon ?


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> Captain, with all due respect, can't quite agree here. What you say would be totally correct if there were ventilation openings in the case of H10. Given that it is sealed enclosure, heatsink inside helps to slow down heating of the case, but eventually temperature of the case would be the same, with or without heatsink. Laws of physic are strict, and they  say that since enclosure is closed (no pun intended), it can only lose heat by transferring it from case to air and radiating it from the case.
> 
> Totally agree with your point on biasing in Class A. Schiit preference to biasing is obviously 'sky is the limit'. I do understand why tube-based Crack gets scorching hot after prolonged listening - peculiarities of technology, pretty much unavoidable. Do not understand why Asgard has to be same way. But hey, as long as it works...




You may have missed the other purpose and effect of the internal heatsink that has nothing to do with the case, be it ventilated or not (and you are assuming an air tight enclosure, which of course it is not). According to most sources I read, the heatsink attached to the base-emitter will stop a rise in its temperature. Therefore, the transistors won't get as run away hot when the heatsink is present.


----------



## olek

You are absolutely right, captain. Transistors do not have much of thermal mass and will overheat very quickly if let to their own devices (ouch, I meant no pun, honestly). Attaching them to anything of high thermal mass allows them to transfer heat quickly to that 'something'. And transistors do not really care if chunk of metal they are attached to is called 'hefty heatsink' or 'heavy aluminum enclosure'. And if that is a heatsink, and it is located in (unventilated) enclosure, that heatsink can dissipate heat only by transferring it to the enclosure, because there is no other place for that heat to go. In other words, sooner or later, unventilated enclosure will heat up, and degree of that depends on its surface area, surrounding air temperature, and how much power amp consumes, but does not depend on what is inside that enclosure. Pardon the (intentional) pun, but from point of view of thermodynamics here, H10 is a 'black box' indeed 
  
 And according to my measurements, that black box consumes only about 12 watts. I am willing to bet that Asgard's actual power consumption is at least double that number.


----------



## BassDigger

rawrster said:


> I think there is where many members (especially those new to the hobby) get the belief that balanced is better. It just so happens that many of the better amps happen to be balanced. The draw for many people is balanced and may not even consider the amp as high end if it is not balanced. The single ended is not very important and just a throw in for good reason. I probably wouldn't even give the single ended option if I was designing the amp such as the Schiit Mjolnir. I'm hoping the Gustard balanced amp doesn't offer a SE output but chances of that are low.
> 
> There are of course very good single ended amps and terrible balanced amps.


 
  
 I'm not sure if here or the general Gustard thread is the best place to continue this discussion. But I'll use this thread. I'm sorry if I'm also reinstating a very 'tired' topic.
  
 Firstly, let me clarify a mistake, or misunderstanding: I'm not talking about single-ended (SE); that's another topic entirely. I'm referring to balanced vs unbalanced amp design and headphone connection. It's of interest to me because I too anticipate, with some excitement, Gustard's future higher-end amplifier (H20). It's confirmed to be a balanced design. I would like to explore what this really means, and is it necessarily a good thing?
  
 Here are some anti-balanced sentiments that I've 'stolen' from another thread (http://www.head-fi.org/t/576339/balanced-vs-single-ended-poll)
  
 ----------------
  
*Initial message expressing opinion on debate:*
_Hello!

 My name is Elias Gwinn, I'm an engineer at Benchmark Media Systems.

 We've been getting a lot of questions lately about balanced headphones. We are interested in the debate, but I can't say we agree with any technical explanations about the benefits of the set up.

 So far, there are 4 major points mentioned so far (that I have heard, at least):

 1. Unshared common conductor reduces crosstalk

 2. Two amps (per channel) increases slew-rate

 3. Two amps provide better damping

 4. Balanced cabling provides better common-mode rejection

 If I may, I'd like to add my thoughts on these points:

 1. Most headphones (at least those of decent quality) do not share a common conductor through the length of the cable (as opposed to what was said in 6 Moons). Most headphones have a separate wire from each negative terminal that remain isolated through the length of the cable. In other words, most headphone cables are effectively balanced inherently. If they were sharing a common through the length of the cable, the impedance of the cable may cause some of the signal to show up on opposing channels. However, they are not connected until the plug, and therefore have a minimal impedance to ground.

 2. Any headphone amp that is struggling with slew-rate is a poorly designed headphone amplifier. The HPA2 headphone amplifier on the DAC1 has a bandwidth of 55 kHz, and it doesn't even approach any slew-rate limitations even at those high frequencies.

 3. Two amps provide WORSE damping. This is why power amplifiers run better in normal mode vs. bridged mode. A balanced (dual-active) headphone amplifier is exactly analogous to a bridged amplifier driving one speaker. The only advantage is increased power, but it comes at an expense of increased distortion, decreased damping, and altered frequency response. This is common knowledge for bridged amplifiers.

 4. Headphones don't need any help with common-mode rejection because they inherently will not respond to common mode signal. If, for example, you apply a signal to both terminals of a speaker, it will not move at all. A speaker only responds to differential voltages.

 5. There is another cost incurred by dual-active headphone amps that is not addressed. Headphone amps should have as low of a source impedance as possible. If you are using two amps to drive a channel, you are doubling the source impedance. This will cause the headphones to suffer in frequency response, distortion, and ringing.

 Please continue the great discussions. It is important to resolve these debates so that product manufactures can respond to provide the best audio solutions possible.

 Thanks!
 Elias Gwinn_
  
*Second response to similar query:*
  
_ALL headphones have non-linear mechanical impedances (that is, the mass and shape of a speaker will resonate more at certain frequencies and much less at other frequencies). This means the physical build of the headphones (as well as other physical impedances, like your head and ears!) will try to override the electrical system (amplifier and speaker coil).

 To create low-distortion headphone response, one must consider 'damping factor'. A high damping factor will control the response of the speaker, thus preventing the physical impedances from dictating frequency response. Damping factor is the ratio of speaker (load) impedance to amplifier (source) impedance. In other words, the best damping factor will result from a low source impedance. Again, the source impedance from the HPA2 is less then 0.01 ohms...as low as gets!!

 Balanced headphone amps will double the source impedance of an unbalanced headphone amp. No matter how low the impedance of a balanced headphone amp, it could be half that much if it was unbalanced. This is one reason balanced headphone amps are not a good idea. (It should also be noted that the balanced output of the DAC1 / USB / PRE is 60 ohms or greater, depending on the attenuator settings).

 Not only will the source impedance double with balanced headphone amplifiers, but the total distortion and noise of the amplifier will double as well!! Every output device (opamp, transistor, tube) creates some distortion and some noise. If there are two opamps or transistors or tubes driving each headphone speaker, twice as much distortion and noise will be added!!

 The result of balanced headphones is less damping factor, more distortion, and more noise. Also, balanced headphones configurations offer no real benefits, to boot.

 Feel free to use the XLR outputs of the DAC1 / USB / PRE for balanced headphone outputs (as mentioned above, the DAC1 USB and DAC1 PRE will do better then the DAC1 at this task, because of the 4562's). It won't damage anything to operate in this configuration. But, for the reasons above, I don't recommend it.

 Thanks,
 Elias_
  

 ----------------
  
 Ultimately, I guess it makes little difference to me, whether my ultimate amp is balanced or un-balanced (I incorrectly used the term 'single-ended' in my previous posts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




); it's easy to fit some different (or re-terminated) cables to my lcd2, but I'd rather not have to.
 What would reeeally interest me is if Gustard were planning to make a current drive amp, like the Bakoon HPA-21.


----------



## BassDigger

....just to continue my confusion:
  
 There seems to be some different opinions as to exactly what the term 'balanced' means.
 To me, it refers to the shielding of the components; as many components as possible should share the same grounded (earthed) shielding. Whereas, unbalanced doesn't necessarily even have shielding.
  
 But, balanced headphone amplification seems to refer to the separation of amplifier modules, on the negative (-) connection (stereo just requires separation of the positive +). This seems, to me, like dual mono.
 I think that the argument above is stating that simply doubling the same components is also doubling their negative (unwanted) attributes, more so than increasing their positive (good) ones.


----------



## fritobugger

xevman said:


> im thining of upgrading to the smsl m8 but questioning whether its really an upgrade from my DacMagic 100 with WM8742. If the sabre chip is well implemented it definitely will be.




I have no experience with that specific DAC or chip. My other dac's have Burr Brown or an older Wolfson both limited the 24/96 or a Burr Brown that does 24/192 but not DSD.


----------



## BassDigger

xevman said:


> im thining of upgrading to the smsl m8 but questioning whether its really an upgrade from my DacMagic 100 with WM8742. If the sabre chip is well implemented it definitely will be.


 


fritobugger said:


> I have no experience with that specific DAC or chip. My other dac's have Burr Brown or an older Wolfson both limited the 24/96 or a Burr Brown that does 24/192 but not DSD.


 
  





 C'mon guys, dacs again?!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Interesting topic, but maybe either of these threads would be a better place...
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuff/5580#post_11643713
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/150#post_11644692


----------



## bavinck

bassdigger said:


> :rolleyes:  C'mon guys, dacs again?!? :blink:
> 
> Interesting topic, but maybe either of these threads would be a better place...
> 
> ...



Uh, that's kind of the pot calling the kettle black lol

I think dacs in direct reference to matching well with the h10 is directly on topic, and generally helpful to the thread (as long as the focus is synergy with the h10). In contrast, I would say the discussion of balanced vs single ended has gone off topic


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> Uh, that's kind of the pot calling the kettle black lol
> 
> I think dacs in direct reference to matching well with the h10 is directly on topic, and generally helpful to the thread (as long as the focus is synergy with the h10). In contrast, I would say the discussion of balanced vs single ended has gone off topic


 
  
 I get your point, but I disagree. What particular relevance do dac chips (and technologies) have with the h10? If you're going to make that argument, then we might as well discuss cables, ear pads, music and even what food goes with a listening session with the h10. (Some of Ms Liu's chocolate cake would be very nice). Ok, so most of these are genuine topics. And as I've previously stated, I appreciate a bit of OT, and of course, engage in it myself. But, dacs have been repeatedly discussed, at length, on this thread. People, not just me, have grown tired of it. There are other threads specifically for that topic, or more general Gustard discussions. That was my suggestion. I was trying to be polite, understanding and sympathetic.
  
 If you want to discuss the synergy of a dac, with the H10, then that would be more like impedance matching; whether the dac and h10 are electrically compatible. Ironically, that discussion is on the general thread!
  
 Regarding my recent OT: It's true, I was torn between continuing the discussion in this thread (the only Gustard amp thread), or the more general Gustard conversation. As the topic was already being discussed here (my fault or not) I chose to continue here. If you think that this was an error of judgment, then I'll take that on board.
 But, I do think it has some relevance to the H10. I'm trying to get an understanding of whether balanced is inherently better than the H10's unbalanced design, and I believe others are thinking about this also. It has been said that the H20 is still at an early part of the design concept; I thought that some may have some useful feedback, suggestions or other concerns.
 If this discussion really 'takes off', then I guess we should consider starting a new (h20) thread. If I've missed another thread discussing this, I apologise. But, I wanted to talk specifically about Gustard amps.
  
 I hope that my reasoning makes sense to everyone.


----------



## batracom

I would very much appreciate help as to whether the H10 would be a suitable solid-state "companion" to my Valhalla 2 in driving my HD800. I very much like the Valhalla, but feel at times that some of the tracks of classical I almost exclusively listen to are better served by a SS amp. I would be very grateful for comments as to whether the H10 would add anything to the party, or whether I am better off tube rolling on the V2, in terms of soundstage, instrument separation and other features which are important to both orchestral and solo classical. Many thanks!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

batracom said:


> I would very much appreciate help as to whether the H10 would be a suitable solid-state "companion" to my Valhalla 2 in driving my HD800. I very much like the Valhalla, but feel at times that some of the tracks of classical I almost exclusively listen to are better served by a SS amp. I would be very grateful for comments as to whether the H10 would add anything to the party, or whether I am better off tube rolling on the V2, in terms of soundstage, instrument separation and other features which are important to both orchestral and solo classical. Many thanks!




Good question. Possibly, though there has been no consensus on this. From what I read about sub-500$ SS amp pairings with the HD 800, Matrix M-Stage is fairly well-regarded. There is someone on this thread whose name escapes me who has tried both it along with the H10 with HD 800. Just do a search. 

Also, the Valhalla 2 is a rather neutral and transparent otl amplifier, not gooey like the first generation Valhalla. The tubes are just going to add more layering and separation. Perhaps rolling some Russian tubes (highly regarded and inexpensive) would help. It seems the H10 and M-Stage would be more of a side-grade than upgrade when HD 800 is your only consideration here. Could be wrong of course.


----------



## auvgeek

batracom said:


> I very much like the Valhalla, but feel at times that some of the tracks of classical I almost exclusively listen to are better served by a SS amp.


 
 Well, I don't own the HD800 or the Valhalla, but you might get better feedback if you're a little more specific about what specifically you think is missing with the Valhalla.
  
 I've heard it said that a good amp designer can achieve the same sound via tubes or SS, so I wouldn't let that be the driving feature in your decision.


----------



## swannie007

bassdigger said:


> I get your point, but I disagree. What particular relevance do dac chips (and technologies) have with the h10? If you're going to make that argument, then we might as well discuss cables, ear pads, music and even what food goes with a listening session with the h10. (Some of Ms Liu's chocolate cake would be very nice). Ok, so most of these are genuine topics. And as I've previously stated, I appreciate a bit of OT, and of course, engage in it myself. But, dacs have been repeatedly discussed, at length, on this thread. People, not just me, have grown tired of it. There are other threads specifically for that topic, or more general Gustard discussions. That was my suggestion. I was trying to be polite, understanding and sympathetic.
> 
> If you want to discuss the synergy of a dac, with the H10, then that would be more like impedance matching; whether the dac and h10 are electrically compatible. Ironically, that discussion is on the general thread!
> 
> ...


 

 Very well put and my thoughts exactly.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I have an HD 800 incoming and will be able to report on the results soonish.


----------



## olek

liu junyuan said:


> I have an HD 800 incoming and will be able to report on the results soonish.


 
  
  
 Awesome! Itching with anticipation...
  
 Liu, before police finds out that you have robbed the bank, could you also source T1 and compare them side by side on H10? 
  
 Clarion and chameleon... that would be interesting shoot-out.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> Awesome! Itching with anticipation...
> 
> Liu, before police finds out that you have robbed the bank, could you also source T1 and compare them side by side on H10?
> 
> Clarion and chameleon... that would be interesting shoot-out.




I was set on the T1 for a long time but decided to skip over it. I really do not like the DT 880 unfortunately. It has actually physically hurt my ears, but no offense to people who like it.


----------



## olek

Sorry to hear that DT880 did not work for you, Liu.
  
 I think you are right that if you did not like DT880, T1 is probably not for you.
  
 I do not know if my pair of DT880 / 600 is any different (some people say that black pads are of different shape and sound different), or if it is just that we all hear differently, but I am in love with DT880/600 sound. Just tried HD650 again 20min ago and could not go for even 5min - too muddy and boring. To make it even funnier, I find DT880 good, but a tiniest bit bland with H10, and prefer them with Speeballed Crack with RCA clear top driver tube. Difference is like difference between very nice but generally shy person (H10) and same person after 1 beer - more fun, spontaneous, bubbly (Crack). Probably you would hate that sound, but I just can't have enough of it. Listening to Beats Antique "Tribal Derivations" now, and it is sublime.
  
 For many years my headphone of choice was AD900, and I am recognising its treble in DT880, just improved so much more, and with great bass/mids thrown in as well.
  
 I had similar reaction to yours in the past with AKG K550 - at some frequencies they just hurt my ears so much I either grimaced or ripped my phones off. I think our ear drums have unique resonance frequencies, and typical dynamic headphones have lots of spikes around 4k-9kHz. If your ear resonance frequency happens to match with driver's resonance, your ears are done for, and you will hate headphone.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

No worries. This is a matter of taste. I absolutely adore the Senn HD6xx sound; it is currently my favorite headphone, ironic since it was my first audiophile purchase five years ago now. It just scales so well. 

In any case, iI really wanted to like the DT 880 too, and I did, until I woke up with physical pain in my ear from which I am still trying to recover. 

YMMV


----------



## DreamKing

The K550 devirginized my ears' 9 kHz sensitivity for a while until I started getting ringing. It's a super clear headphone but most of that is just the brain processing the higher HF response. I then applied a -5dB EQ at the frequency. I cannot listen to it without that EQ or for that matter any headphone with peaks that high in the HF. I did an audiogram and my ear sensitivity is U-shaped, so I don't mind slight peaks under 6 kHz for the most part.
  


olek said:


> I had similar reaction to yours in the past with AKG K550 - at some frequencies they just hurt my ears so much I either grimaced or ripped my phones off. I think our ear drums have unique resonance frequencies, and typical dynamic headphones have lots of spikes around 4k-9kHz. If your ear resonance frequency happens to match with driver's resonance, your ears are done for, and you will hate headphone.


----------



## olek

liu junyuan said:


> No worries. This is a matter of taste. I absolutely adore the Senn HD6xx sound; it is currently my favorite headphone, ironic since it was my first audiophile purchase five years ago now. It just scales so well.
> 
> In any case, iI really wanted to like the DT 880 too, and I did, until I woke up with physical pain in my ear from which I am still trying to recover.
> 
> YMMV


 

 HD6xx are really nice headphones, and even if their sound signature was not what  was looking for, I recognized their superiority to everything I had, and learned to like their signature. But DT880 was a revelation and 'coming back home'. At this point it is highly likely that HD650 will be allowed to go to better home. Same goes for K553 (even that they do not have ringing of K550). Same for my beloved old pair of AD900 - finally found a headphone that does treble as well as those. I only switch from DT880 to DT250 when I need to drown out AC noise in my office a bit. Starting to consider hunting down DT770/600 to replace/supplement DT250.
  
 Another nice thing about DT880 on Crack with RCA clear tops (for me!) - I find that I tend to listen now on slightly lower volumes, since sound is already very lively and quite exciting. With HD650/H10 my preference was to climb the volume mountain quite a bit more (to get stronger treble and low bass), and that caused me to get a bit of ear pain from time to time.
  
 Liu, really sorry to hear that you acquired a longer term pain from DT880 (I thought you were talking about momentary 'ouch' pain). That is quite a bummer. It is all too familiar to me, unfortunately. If I am allowed to advise anything, please stay far away from headphones for couple days at least (I know, it is hard), drink lots of fluids (I am not talking about coffee), and take some Magnesium supplement to prevent long term damage (our ear drums have a tendency to enter a self-destructive loop after bad noise exposure and magnesium ions help to break that loop). If you are into herbal medicine, consider VincaHear supplement, and/or Dr Christopher's 'Ear and Nerve' formula, those may do nothing, or may help. If pain persists, go see a specialist as an extra precaution (but do not expect too much from that visit).
  
 Also consider other changes to your music chain you have done recently. Especially DACs. I have heard people saying that they had to undo 'usb ugrade' on their Bifrost because while new setup was musically superior in every way, it caused their tinnitus to be much aggravated, and original Bifrost did not. Unlikely to be your case, but worth considering.


----------



## bavinck

Sitting here this am listening to some music on my H10/HE500 combo. Reading what you guys write about different headphones and how they pair with H10. Usually this propels me to lust over new headphones and make a plan to fund them. However, this time I am totally satisfied with my current combo, and loving my planar sound so much I have no interest in dynamic headphones anymore. I am in love....


----------



## olek

May that love last for a long, long time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 On a serious note, I can see how that combination can be great, even that I do not own any planars. To get a sound of neutral and detailed OTL tube setup on low impedance current hungry highly resolving planar headphones, that is not easy feat, and that combination likely produces really good sound.


----------



## bavinck

olek said:


> May that love last for a long, long time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 He500s can be had for reasonable prices now that they are discounted. Highly recommend to try and pick up a pair, especially as I think everyone need planars in their arsenal!


----------



## bavinck

Messing around with the gain settings again on the H10. I recall Liu a while back saying the +6 switch gave him more bass, and the +12 even more, he settled on +6 because he thought +12 was too much bass. I am also finding the increase in gain settings also increases bass. It seems pretty obvious to me, can anyone else confirm this?
  
 Also, with increase in gain my volume in turned down and I do not notice any channel imbalance, even below 9am. Maybe I am just missing it?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

bavinck said:


> Messing around with the gain settings again on the H10. I recall Liu a while back saying the +6 switch gave him more bass, and the +12 even more, he settled on +6 because he thought +12 was too much bass. I am also finding the increase in gain settings also increases bass. It seems pretty obvious to me, can anyone else confirm this?
> 
> Also, with increase in gain my volume in turned down and I do not notice any channel imbalance, even below 9am. Maybe I am just missing it?


 
 Funny. I was just going to post regarding gain. I just upped it to +12 for the HD 650, and I think it sounds better to my ears. Dynamics are better, and so is slam when recording calls for it. Not sure about my other headphones yet--could be too much for HE-500s. 
  
 Without sounding like a drooling idiot, I must say I love this amp with the HD 650s! It's beautiful--listening to some traditional Chinese music atm. 
  
 I did this because I was reading around on another site from people whom I trust that using more gain is usually better, on the condition that there is no clipping or distortion; if that is the case, one must lower it. However, this general rule depends on the amp. What I am finding is that with this particular pairing, the +12 gain is glorious. 
  
 Best,


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> HD6xx are really nice headphones, and even if their sound signature was not what  was looking for, I recognized their superiority to everything I had, and learned to like their signature. But DT880 was a revelation and 'coming back home'. At this point it is highly likely that HD650 will be allowed to go to better home. Same goes for K553 (even that they do not have ringing of K550). Same for my beloved old pair of AD900 - finally found a headphone that does treble as well as those. I only switch from DT880 to DT250 when I need to drown out AC noise in my office a bit. Starting to consider hunting down DT770/600 to replace/supplement DT250.
> 
> Another nice thing about DT880 on Crack with RCA clear tops (for me!) - I find that I tend to listen now on slightly lower volumes, since sound is already very lively and quite exciting. With HD650/H10 my preference was to climb the volume mountain quite a bit more (to get stronger treble and low bass), and that caused me to get a bit of ear pain from time to time.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks. Yes, I did stay away from all headphone listening for nearly a week. Thankfully, I was not hearing ringing, and my brain was not telling me sounds were there when they were not (i.e. tinnitus). I also drank lots of tea and ate plenty of leafy vegetables (which are high in magnesium) 
  
 Yeah, I really wanted to like the DT 880s; I did like them until the pain set in. I have just been looking at them the past three days wanting to listen but afraid to. They are still great headphones though.


----------



## bavinck

Yes, the he500s with +12 gain definitely has more slam.


----------



## olek

My H10 is now set to +12db gain mostly because it makes it's overall gain very similar to Crack's gain, making it easy to go back and forth, and also 600 Ohm headphones benefit from that gain, and having volume dial roughly in 'midnight/noon' position is nice as well.
  
 I know, not very poetic, I am being very pragmatic and boring here.


----------



## MattTCG

I find the talk about the gain influencing the dynamics and bass rather interesting. I've been using the h10 mostly with the hd650 and think it's a fantastic pairing. I do like +6 better than no gain. I have not ventured into +12 territory but I guess it's time to give it a shot. 
  
 I like the plus six setting because I still have some decent range with the potentiometer. If +12 is equal to the gain on the Crack, then that'd be too much for me. I don't listen to music "loud" typically.


----------



## bavinck

matttcg said:


> I find the talk about the gain influencing the dynamics and bass rather interesting. I've been using the h10 mostly with the hd650 and think it's a fantastic pairing. I do like +6 better than no gain. I have not ventured into +12 territory but I guess it's time to give it a shot.
> 
> I like the plus six setting because I still have some decent range with the potentiometer. If +12 is equal to the gain on the Crack, then that'd be too much for me. I don't listen to music "loud" typically.



I feel the same, but I don't hear much (any?) channel imbalance when I am lower than 1/4 of the dial.


----------



## Jozurr

mohdkhamsya said:


> Of course. I'd be glad to do a short comparison. In the meantime, I found this short impression I posted on the magni2u thread:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/748067/official-schiit-magni-modi-2-uber-thread/30#post_11265468.
> 
> The impressions are still applicable today. My only complain is that the pairing is too neutral, bordering clinical, at least for my taste. I would prefer slightly more body, and musicality.


 
  
 So did you receive your H10? How was your experience with Aliexpress and which seller did you get it from?
  
 Im also using the Magni2U with my HE-560 and considering the H10. Would love to read your detailed impressions with the magni2u and H10 and the differences.
  
 My journey towards upgrading my DAC/AMP is in it it's infancy


----------



## batracom

liu junyuan said:


> Good question. Possibly, though there has been no consensus on this. From what I read about sub-500$ SS amp pairings with the HD 800, Matrix M-Stage is fairly well-regarded. There is someone on this thread whose name escapes me who has tried both it along with the H10 with HD 800. Just do a search.
> 
> Also, the Valhalla 2 is a rather neutral and transparent otl amplifier, not gooey like the first generation Valhalla. The tubes are just going to add more layering and separation. Perhaps rolling some Russian tubes (highly regarded and inexpensive) would help. It seems the H10 and M-Stage would be more of a side-grade than upgrade when HD 800 is your only consideration here. Could be wrong of course.


 
 Many thanks. I really like my Valhalla 2 and feel am getting the hang of good tubes. However, I wonder whether a solid state amp would deliver more instrument separation and soundstage, and I feel that at times the tubes add a wonderful warmth but detract some detail.
 But it would seem from the general reaction that an H10 isn't that much of an upgrade vis-a-vis the HD800, from the experiences of people on this thread who have both. Unless I am mistaken.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

matttcg said:


> I find the talk about the gain influencing the dynamics and bass rather interesting. I've been using the h10 mostly with the hd650 and think it's a fantastic pairing. I do like +6 better than no gain. I have not ventured into +12 territory but I guess it's time to give it a shot.
> 
> I like the plus six setting because I still have some decent range with the potentiometer. If +12 is equal to the gain on the Crack, then that'd be too much for me. I don't listen to music "loud" typically.




Yeah, I am just sort of experimenting 
. Venturing into other recordings I need to put the potentiometer below 9 with +12,which makes me think +6 is probably the most consistent setting for me as well.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

batracom said:


> Many thanks. I really like my Valhalla 2 and feel am getting the hang of good tubes. However, I wonder whether a solid state amp would deliver more instrument separation and soundstage, and I feel that at times the tubes add a wonderful warmth but detract some detail.
> But it would seem from the general reaction that an H10 isn't that much of an upgrade vis-a-vis the HD800, from the experiences of people on this thread who have both. Unless I am mistaken.




Well, I will be able to tell you when I receive mine. 

It also depends on your budget. If I was going SS purely for the HD 800s, I would be looking at the Ragnarok or Eddie Current Black Widow, or the Bryston BHA-1, but I would need to do some saving for those. FWIW the Matrix M-Stage. which also gets some praise, is probably not going to be any more resolving than your V2. 

Do you use any other headphones? The H10 is definitely solid with most transducers I have tried.


----------



## bavinck

I don't know, the volume is just above 1/4 most of the time for me on +12 gain but I really like how it sounds. I think I will keep it like this for a bit and see how it goes.


----------



## sunneebear

+18 anyone?


----------



## bavinck

sunneebear said:


> +18 anyone?



Lol if it's a joke. If not, only does +12 for a total of 20 gain.


----------



## sunneebear

Pretty sure +6 with +12 works.


----------



## bavinck

sunneebear said:


> Pretty sure +6 with +12 works.




Really... Well then I apologize. Hmm...


----------



## sunneebear

No need to apologize.  Just got mine, no manual of course so I'm just flipping every switch I see.


----------



## bavinck

Don't think there is a manual. At least an English one. How does it sound?


----------



## sunneebear

For driving the Alpha Dog it does sound better.  Not that I listen really loud but it does sound a little more open and lively at low to moderate volume.


----------



## bavinck

sunneebear said:


> For driving the Alpha Dog it does sound better.  Not that I listen really loud but it does sound a little more open and lively at low to moderate volume.



What sounds better? The amp in general or the +18?


----------



## sunneebear

Amp on +18 driving alpha dog.


----------



## sunneebear

After a bit of switching back and forth between +12 and then adding +6, the difference that is most obvious is less pronounced upper mids at +18.  I don't think the overall tone is warmer or there is more bass.  Just higher the gain, less the upper mids.


----------



## bavinck

I am not getting any change in loudness when I add +6 to +12, same volume no change. Not sure what else to say - you are actually getting a volume change?


----------



## sunneebear

The volume change is very slight.  The change in midrange tone is more apparent.  I am changing the dip switches while the music is playing.


----------



## sunneebear

I just went through a number of songs and genres and I see what you mean.  With some music there is no perceived difference.  Pop vocals and mids seem to have the most effect.  With classical, and jazz I can't hear any difference.


----------



## Idgit

You can pick up the H10 from Polychenn for 316.79 (10% off) if you use Paypal until 6/1.


----------



## bavinck

sunneebear said:


> The volume change is very slight.  The change in midrange tone is more apparent.  I am changing the dip switches while the music is playing.


 
 Yep, you are right. Very slight volume change. Mids _might_ be coming out a bit more - I will need to test further first before committing
  
 This amp is full of mysteries...


----------



## DreamKing

sunneebear said:


> Pretty sure +6 with +12 works.


 
  
 I'm trying this...I definitely hear the vocals and some other midrange elements coming out more....
  
 These settings are too much for me with the HE-560 though. Midrange is all over the place and upper-bass bloat is annoying. But I don't think it's even acknowledged by the manufacturer or meant as a genuine gain setting .
  
 Keeping it at +6.


----------



## batracom

idgit said:


> You can pick up the H10 from Polychenn for 316.79 (10% off) if you use Paypal until 6/1.




Can you please explain how to do this? The main Ebay listing, http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-current-Discrete-Class-A-output-Stage-Headphone-Amplifier-/261520921654?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce3dc9436 
Still has it at 351. Many thanks!


----------



## Jozurr

batracom said:


> Can you please explain how to do this? The main Ebay listing, http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-current-Discrete-Class-A-output-Stage-Headphone-Amplifier-/261520921654?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce3dc9436
> Still has it at 351. Many thanks!


 


 Yeah more details on this please. Thanks.


----------



## Idgit

Yeah, my apologies on this. It's been brought to my attention that not everyone is seeing this. It appears to be a targeted promotion from Paypal; maybe because I use Paypal a lot.
 Does anyone else get this offer "Pay only 316.79 (show me how)" link? When you hover over the link it brings up a coupon code, but even this code doesn't seem to work for everyone.


----------



## PeterSchut

Hi Forum,
  
 I am new here and I am looking for a new headphone amp. I am (as I write this) using an AKG K702 on a TC electronic MBC-2 desktop controller DAC.
 This little device actually sounds quite OK ..... but I want more.
  
 Sorry for not reading through the whole tread but does anybody know how the amp output stage schematic is done? On a picture I saw on the web that the H10 uses an opamp from Burr Brown called the OPA134.
 This is an excellent opamp. However as it sits in a socket I would experiment with others like the difet BB OPA627, or the bipolar AD AD797. Even the fet BB OPA604 is a great low cost and again slightly different sounding opamp. (beware of fake versions as there are Chinese restamped opamps out there)  
  
 But back to my original question:
  
 There are two output stage versions that work good but sound different:
 1) the output stage is included in the opamp loop of the final stage like a Beyer Dynamic A1
 2) the output stage sits outside the opamp loop like used in the Lehmann Audio Linear
  
 I prefer the second option, but expect the first one is used.
 The first gives the lowest THD and smoothest frequency response but the second is more musical and isolates the buffer from the opamp.
 In the second case the actual headphone does not interact with the gain stage of the amp.
  
 Thanks


----------



## GioF71

Hello, I have a question about gain settings for you H10 users.
  
 With my Sennheiser HD650, the default settings of the H10 seem to provide the necessary volume levels. I usually listen at 10-11 h, and rarely raise the volume to little lower than 12.
  
 Would a higher gain still give some advantages? AFAIK one should use the lowest gain possibile, which still gives you the necessary volume levels. Is it right?
  
 Thanks a lot.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

giof71 said:


> Hello, I have a question about gain settings for you H10 users.
> 
> With my Sennheiser HD650, the default settings of the H10 seem to provide the necessary volume levels. I usually listen at 10-11 h, and rarely raise the volume to little lower than 12.
> 
> ...




+6. 

Also, there is a search function on this website. We have literally been discussing this the last few pages of posts.


----------



## DreamKing

giof71 said:


> Hello, I have a question about gain settings for you H10 users.
> 
> With my Sennheiser HD650, the default settings of the H10 seem to provide the necessary volume levels. I usually listen at 10-11 h, and rarely raise the volume to little lower than 12.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Best thing would be to listen on your own and evaluate. If default gain works best for you then just keep those settings. Gain realistically shouldn't be a problem if there's no clipping or distortion like Liu said.
 But I'm honestly starting to feel like these sonic differences particular to the treble being brighter/more forward like I'm hearing at higher gain than default is distortion related.
*EDIT: turns out these differences in gain are just the volume getting louder and so our perception of the FR changes due to "Equal Loudness Contour" or "Fletcher-Munson"*


----------



## GioF71

liu junyuan said:


> +6.
> 
> Also, there is a search function on this website. We have literally been discussing this the last few pages of posts.


 
  
 yes but I didn't see answer to this specific question (that is, use the minimum gain setting which still gives you enough volume).
 I will try to search again anyway


----------



## GioF71

dreamking said:


> Best thing would be to listen on your own and evaluate. If default gain works best for you then just keep those settings. Gain realistically shouldn't be a problem if there's no clipping or distortion like Liu said.
> But I'm honestly starting to feel like these sonic differences particular to the treble being brighter/more forward like I'm hearing at higher gain than default is distortion related.


 
  
 yes, will try myself of course. At the moment I am away from home on a little vacation, so I was thinking about this aspect.
 Thanks


----------



## GioF71

I looked a bit more closely and it seems like the answer was in the thread, even if not in a specific answer to a specific question.
 Sorry for asking about an already discussed topic


----------



## mohdkhamsya

jozurr said:


> So did you receive your H10? How was your experience with Aliexpress and which seller did you get it from?
> 
> Im also using the Magni2U with my HE-560 and considering the H10. Would love to read your detailed impressions with the magni2u and H10 and the differences.
> 
> My journey towards upgrading my DAC/AMP is in it it's infancy


 
  
  
 Hi! Sorry for the late reply. Was very busy last week. Yeap I got it after 7 days from aliexpress. Used for close to a hundred hours with my dx90 as a dac, the he560 and dn2000 iems. There are some characteristics of this new setup which are quite distinct when comparing with the m2u.
  
 1) It has a much much bigger headroom with better layering. The m2u sounds compressed in comparison.
 2) Waaay more texture in the lows and goes deeper too.
 3) Notes are thicker all round, makes the m2u sound thin and screechy.
 4) I would say that it is very slightly warm whereas the m2u was more clinical and bright.
 5) Both are quite transparent but its just that the way the h10 delivers the detail in the music is so effortless.
  
 In short, this is a brilliant amp. Do yourself a big favour and order it.


----------



## Jozurr

mohdkhamsya said:


> Hi! Sorry for the late reply. Was very busy last week. Yeap I got it after 7 days from aliexpress. Used for close to a hundred hours with my dx90 as a dac, the he560 and dn2000 iems. There are some characteristics of this new setup which are quite distinct when comparing with the m2u.
> 
> 1) It has a much much bigger headroom with better layering. The m2u sounds compressed in comparison.
> 2) Waaay more texture in the lows and goes deeper too.
> ...


 
  
 Great to read the comparison. Strongly considering the amp. Can you tell me which seller did you use on Aliexpress? I only see prices closer to $400 shipped.


----------



## Noodlz

Dammit. So i finally got my H10 from pollychen from china. But the wrong voltage was shipped. I got the 250V and im in the US where we use 120V... =*( At least thats what the power chord says. When i first plugged it in i could turn it on but no sound was coming in. I then proceeded to swamp the plug with another powerplug that is 120V..which in retrospect may have been a very very bad idea. it turned on, still no sound but i quickly turned it off and unplugged it. Hopefully that didnt damage anything. Sent a message to pollychen. Any advice? I read somewhere in the earlier thread that you can open this thing up and change the settings in the transformer or something?


----------



## Kozic

noodlz said:


> Dammit. So i finally got my H10 from pollychen from china. But the wrong voltage was shipped. I got the 250V and im in the US where we use 120V... =*( At least thats what the power chord says. When i first plugged it in i could turn it on but no sound was coming in. I then proceeded to swamp the plug with another powerplug that is 120V..which in retrospect may have been a very very bad idea. it turned on, still no sound but i quickly turned it off and unplugged it. Hopefully that didnt damage anything. Sent a message to pollychen. Any advice? I read somewhere in the earlier thread that you can open this thing up and change the settings in the transformer or something?


If you open it up you can switch it to 120volt. If you go back about 6 pages post #1986 there are some pics of what I'm talking about. Good luck


----------



## olek

Yes, there are 2 switches in there (one for each transformer), make sure to check/switch both of them.
  
 When you remove top cover they will be in plain sight, to the side of each transformer.
  
 I think no harm was done if you plugged it wrong. If your unit was configured for 250V and you plugged it to 120V, amp got only half its required voltage, and was not operational, but that is about it, nothing should be blown. Now, to go the other way (to plug US unit into EU mains) would be a bad thing indeed.


----------



## Noodlz

awesome thanks guys! Just opened up and switched it to its proper config and plugged in. all seems to work now! =)


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> Dammit. So i finally got my H10 from pollychen from china. But the wrong voltage was shipped. I got the 250V and im in the US where we use 120V... =*( At leas*t thats what the power chord says*. When i first plugged it in i could turn it on but no sound was coming in*. I then proceeded to swamp the plug with another powerplug* that is 120V..which in retrospect may have been a very very bad idea. it turned on, still no sound but i quickly turned it off and unplugged it. Hopefully that didnt damage anything. Sent a message to pollychen. Any advice? I read somewhere in the earlier thread that you can open this thing up and change the settings in the transformer or something?


 


noodlz said:


> awesome thanks guys! Just opened up and switched it to its proper config and plugged in. all seems to work now! =)


 
  
 It's good that everything's fine now.
  
 *Incidentally, whatever's written on the power cord, or changing the the power cord to one with different figures on it, won't make any difference; it's just a cable; whatever goes in one end will come out the other. The settings in the amp are what matters.
  
 *(A good quality mains cable may make some sq difference.)


----------



## Noodlz

@BassDigger Haha you're probably right. Guess I wasn't really thinking. Though i may look into getting upgrades to the power cables after. Getting my Morrow MA4 RCA cables in about 2 weeks from now i think. Hopefully will receive my Vero full reference cables in the near future~ After that just need to upgrade the power cables then i'm all set to go!
  
 In the meanwhile, burning in my H10 now for about 20 hours. They did indeed sound kinda terrible up front (Flat compress and not very musical), it's much much better now(more and more fluid / musical. Slowly opening up). Can't wait till its more burned in!


----------



## Noodlz

roughly 26 hours in, now i've just been burning it in and occasionally listening to them with my dynamic cans. Been resisting the urge to plug in the LCD-2's till now. HOLY CRAP. This amp is AMAAAAZING with them. They sound like completely different headphones. I was expecting it to be good, but this is like a 30% increase in fidelity, soundstage, articulation, tone, etc etc etc. Its as if there was a caramel haze that was there before, now completely lifted and everything is blooming and glistening and flowing crystally sweet. (sorry if i sound like a crazy person lol. Was planning to sleep an hour ago but then i hooked up the LCD's~ now i got textures and colors flying around listening to them)
  
 Im already perfectly happy with where this is now, but i'm curious if it'll improve even more as I continue to burn it in. I recall earlier some of you guys had mentioned that this thing takes a good 50 hours to burn in?


----------



## Lohb

noodlz said:


> Been resisting the urge to plug in the LCD-2's till now. HOLY CRAP. This amp is AMAAAAZING with them. They sound like completely different headphones. I was expecting it to be good, but this is like a 30% increase in fidelity, soundstage, articulation, tone, etc etc etc. Its as if there was a caramel haze that was there before, now completely lifted and everything is blooming and glistening and flowing crystally sweet.


 
 Great to know. Thanks for more positive LCD pairing impressions.


----------



## auvgeek

noodlz said:


> Im already perfectly happy with where this is now, but i'm curious if it'll improve even more as I continue to burn it in. I recall earlier some of you guys had mentioned that this thing takes a good 50 hours to burn in?


 
 Closer to 100 hours. I thought mine was all set...and then it just kind of hit me out of the blue. Bass was there in a way I'd never heard before.


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> roughly 26 hours in, now i've just been burning it in and occasionally listening to them with my dynamic cans. Been resisting the urge to plug in the LCD-2's till now. HOLY CRAP. This amp is AMAAAAZING with them. *They sound like completely different headphones. I was expecting it to be good, but this is like a 30% increase in fidelity, soundstage, articulation, tone, etc etc etc. Its as if there was a caramel haze that was there before, now completely lifted and everything is blooming and glistening and flowing crystally sweet. *(sorry if i sound like a crazy person lol. Was planning to sleep an hour ago but then i hooked up the LCD's~ now i got textures and colors flying around listening to them)
> 
> Im already perfectly happy with where this is now, but i'm curious if it'll improve even more as I continue to burn it in. I recall earlier some of you guys had mentioned that this thing takes a good 50 hours to burn in?


 
  
 Is this in comparison to your previous amp? If so, which model was it? I hope that I'll get a similar gain.


----------



## PeterSchut

Hi Guys,
  
 In one of the many pictures of the H10 that had enough detail to view the used opamp I saw that it used a Fake BB OPA134
  
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/rjm/attachments/1579d1423917374-gustard-h10-headphone-amplifier-dsc_7271s.jpg
  
 That is not a Burr Brown logo, but should look like this:
  
http://electronics-diy.com/schematics/1017/OPA134_opamp.jpg
  
 If you are really happy with your amp I wouldn't be bothered but I would expect it will shine with a real BB amp.


----------



## bavinck

peterschut said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> In one of the many pictures of the H10 that had enough detail to view the used opamp I saw that it used a Fake BB OPA134
> 
> ...


 
 They are probably made in china and just re-labeled for the Chinese market.


----------



## PeterSchut

But why change the logo?
 No I think that there is something like a $0,50 TL072 in there. 
 The market for fake components is massive.
  
 We produce pro Audio/Video equipment for the broadcast market and sometimes get fooled even through professional channels.
  
 I am not saying it is fake for a 100% but it is worth a try to buy original ones for probably less than $10.00


----------



## bavinck

It is definitely worth a try. Try it out and let us know. Does it required soldering?


----------



## dukja

I knew that this is a H10 thread but lots of DAC-X12 users also post here.  I have posted a new question in DAC forum for my questions for other people to find easily.
  


dukja said:


> I have this DAC for sometimes and it sounds great via my old Audio-GD Digital Interface feeding SPDIF through coax.  However, I noticed that it would lose lock on SPDIF at 44.1 kHz from time to time.  I cannot duplicate the issue at will but it comes and goes.  I have two DIs, one at home and one at office.  This X12 suffered the same issue with both DI, hence I suspect that it might have some issue.
> 
> The USB input to it runs fine but the sound quality is inferior to the SPDIF input from DI. I listen to it with the chain:
> DI > SPDIF > X12 > Audio-GD Phoenix > HD800
> ...


 
 So any X12 users here find the similar situation?


----------



## xevman

peterschut said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> In one of the many pictures of the H10 that had enough detail to view the used opamp I saw that it used a Fake BB OPA134
> 
> ...




I've personally seen authentic burr brown opa134pa with that exact logo before. I don't think it is fake...


----------



## stuartmc

bavinck said:


> They are probably made in china and just re-labeled for the Chinese market.


 
 The Burr Brown Opamp chip in question is re-labled in many different markets and is all the same chip.  Here is one sold in Europe that has the same logo as the one in the H10.


----------



## PeterSchut

stuartmc said:


> The Burr Brown Opamp chip in question is re-labled in many different markets and is all the same chip.  Here is one sold in Europe that has the same logo as the one in the H10.


 
 Okay, if you are sure I won't argue.


----------



## PeterSchut

bavinck said:


> It is definitely worth a try. Try it out and let us know. Does it required soldering?


 
 No just a clean swap.... try a OPA627, a really nice sounding opamp (a bit more expensive though)


----------



## stuartmc

peterschut said:


> No just a clean swap.... try a OPA627, a really nice sounding opamp (a bit more expensive though)


 
 INow that I see they are in a socket, it's time for some opamp rolling.   This couldn't be any easier.


----------



## bavinck

Is it just one opamp in the h10 or do I need to get two?


----------



## Noodlz

@BassDigger I was coming from a Schitt asgard 1 that was using my Kenwood KR770 vintage receiver as a preamp through MIT AVT3 RCA Cables. The same exact setup is being used now with the H10. Definite several levels up from before, with the dynamic headphones they're great, but with Orthos they are now leagues above. I'd say that the h10 also way better than my tube amp as well (i have a little indeed G2 with a phillips 7308 tube). To think that its still got room for growth from burn in, best purchase ever.
  
 **side note. I have a pair of Mad Dog 3.2, it also sounds like a completely different pair of headphones with the H10. This thing does crazy voodoo magic to orthos lol


----------



## stuartmc

noodlz said:


> (sorry if i sound like a crazy person lol. Was planning to sleep an hour ago but then i hooked up the LCD's~ now i got textures and colors flying around listening to them)


 
  
 Nah, I wouldn't call you crazy. I'd call you an aspiring Swabbie of the SS Gustard.  Welcome aboard 'mate.  I'm running a highly modded set of HE-560's and as I have said before, the H10 practically fornicates with them.  I'd say, "get a room you guys," but they are already in my bedroom, lol.


----------



## genclaymore

bavinck said:


> Is it just one opamp in the h10 or do I need to get two?


 

 Theres  Two Dual channel's NE5534 OP-amps and Two single channel OPA134 op-amps. I replaced both sets my self with Two LT1361's in the dual channel spots and Two LME49990MA's in the two Single channel sockets.


----------



## natemact

I have a pair of AD797AN's pinch hitting for the OPA134PA's and I couldn't be happier. There was a noticeable veil lifted IMHO. Haven't been bothered to replace the NE5535's yet as it just sounds sooo good with the 797's in'er. Some day I'll try a pair of LM4562NA's back there though, or maybe OPA2604AP's if the 4562's don't work well in the circuit.


----------



## genclaymore

I still waiting on my LME49860 to come,But I lucky i the LT1361 came, as I hope the LME's didnt get lost in the mail.


----------



## Noodlz

@stuartmc Thanks! excited to be onboard of SS Gustard~. This is a magnificent ship indeed lol. Super curious on how the HE560s sound now lol. One thing at a time though. just got my beresford capella in. Gotta burn in and try some setups =)


----------



## Lohb

While subject is on OPAMPs, would the LM6171 work with H10's 2 sockets and voltage range ?
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/79785/buffered-input-lm6171-headamp


----------



## abhishekSPS

> Now you know why I felt it rivaled the Speedballed Crack
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 could u please say that again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....i am planning on buying and assembling BHC+speedball for hd650s especially, if h10s are better with 650s than bhc+sb then i might be better off saving myself from all the soldering hassle which i have never done before and buy h10 instead.


----------



## xevman

I personally wouldn't roll op amps in the Gustard. I feel that it was designed specifically to use those opamps included with the unit, I feel that swapping them may have a negative impact on the amp itself then again im not an electrical engineer I just feel its better left the way it is.


----------



## sunneebear

xevman said:


> I personally wouldn't roll op amps in the Gustard. I feel that it was designed specifically to use those opamps included with the unit, I feel that swapping them may have a negative impact on the amp itself then again im not an electrical engineer I just feel its better left the way it is.


 
  
 I would agree with you because whom ever reversed engineered the V200 into the H10 and came out with a cheaper and better amp did a fine job.  I would let it be but it is a low cost amp and so are the parts.  The 627 does the same thing as the 134 but with better tolerances and specs so it shouldn't hurt.  The H10 sounding better than the V200 is not my opinion but from a couple of reviews I have read.


----------



## Shaffer

sunneebear said:


> I would agree with you because whom ever reversed engineered the V200 into the H10 and came out with a cheaper and better amp did a fine job.  I would let it be but it is a low cost amp and so are the parts.  The 627 does the same thing as the 134 but with better tolerances and specs so it shouldn't hurt. * The H10 sounding better than the V200 is not my opinion but from a couple of reviews I have read.*




I had a chance to borrow a Gustard; was thinking of getting one for the turntable, as I truly love my V200 in that application. Who ever said the two sound similar is nothing short of deaf. And that's just the tonal balance. Resolution? That must be the punchline of the joke. I didn't buy the Gustard, no reason to, as it's not an upgrade over any of my amps, and bought a Feliks Elise instead. Now, _that's_ an amplifier, as is the V200. Sorry, don't mean to rain on anyone's parade.


----------



## BassDigger

shaffer said:


> I had a chance to borrow a Gustard; was thinking of getting one for the turntable, as I truly love my V200 in that application. Who ever said the two sound similar is nothing short of deaf. And that's just the tonal balance. Resolution? That must be the punchline of the joke. I didn't buy the Gustard, no reason to, as it's not an upgrade over any of my amps, and bought a Feliks Elise instead. Now, _that's_ an amplifier, as is the V200. Sorry, don't mean to rain on anyone's parade.


 
  
 I know that this thread has turned into a bit of an H10 'fan fest'. But, I think that we're all reasonable and pragmatic people who would be very interested to hear about your impressions, in a bit more detail. I know I would. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 One question: Do you know about the run in state of the borrowed H10? Apparently it makes quite a difference.
 Also, you should be aware that there are some posters who've owned both, and prefer the H10. Just saying.


----------



## Shaffer

bassdigger said:


> I know that this thread has turned into a bit of an H10 'fan fest'. But, I think that we're all reasonable and pragmatic people who would be very interested to hear about your impressions, in a bit more detail. I know I would. :rolleyes:




How friendly. Why are you rolling your eyes? Unlike you, I've had both amps in my system side-by-side.



> One question: Do you know about the run in state of the borrowed H10? Apparently it makes quite a difference.




I've been involved with audio for ~40 years. This isn't my first rodeo. My friend has been using the amp for several months.



> Also, you should be aware that there are some posters who've owned both, and prefer the H10. Just saying. :blink:




My closest friend likes his Honda Element more than my Evolution IX. So what? 

The comparisons I've seen are from folks who do not actually own the V200. Like I said, feel free to delude yourself. It's not like I have to listen to that thing. In fact, i ran search of this thread and only one person owned a V200 years ago. The rest of the folks discussing the Vio are either relying on their imaginations and/or parroting someone else relying solely on his imagination. Is that some kind of a joke? This thread, relative to the V200's narration of wishful thinking, exemplifies the worst this forum has to offer.

Edit: Your profile lists your amplifier an an ebay Beyer clone. Why are you talking to me?


----------



## Lohb

xevman said:


> I personally wouldn't roll op amps in the Gustard. I feel that it was designed specifically to use those opamps included with the unit, I feel that swapping them may have a negative impact on the amp itself then again im not an electrical engineer I just feel its better left the way it is.


 

 Guys already rolled opamps and got better subjective results back at the start of the thread.
 To say not to roll in opamps is the death of experimentalism. The opamp is just the designer's flavor...nothing more, nothing less.
 This amp has already been the subject of successful modding; as will the coming balanced one.


----------



## jazzwave

Any experience with GUSTARD H10 pair with HD600?
 Please share your impression...
  
 ~ron~


----------



## BassDigger

shaffer said:


> How friendly. Why are you rolling your eyes? Unlike you, I've had both amps in my system side-by-side.
> I've been involved with audio for ~40 years. This isn't my first rodeo. My friend has been using the amp for several months.
> My closest friend likes his Honda Element more than my Evolution IX. So what? Plus, the comparisons I've seen are from folks who do not actually own the V200. Like I said, feel free to delude yourself. It's not like I have to listen to that thing.
> 
> Edit: Your profile lists your amplifier an an ebay Beyer clone. Why are you talking to me?


 
  






 How friendly? It looks like a smile, not an eye-roll, to me.
  
 Delude?!? Now who's being 'friendly'? I'm asking questions, purely because I want to _avoid_ any delusions!


----------



## Shaffer

bassdigger said:


> :rolleyes:  How friendly? It looks like a smile, not an eye-roll, to me.




"Inspect element"



> Delude?!? Now who's being 'friendly'? I'm asking questions, purely because I want to _avoid_ any delusions!




What, exactly, are you asking?


----------



## BassDigger

shaffer said:


> "Inspect element"
> What, exactly, are you asking?




Forget it.


----------



## Noodlz

@Shaffer i dont think bass digger meant any disrespect earlier, we should all just chill~ I for one am genuinely interested in hearing more comparisons between the V200 and the gustard. I mean its a huge step up from what i had before but the scary thinga bout this hobby is that the escalation never seems to end haha.


----------



## Shaffer

noodlz said:


> @Shaffer
> i dont think bass digger meant any disrespect earlier, we should all just chill~ I for one am genuinely interested in hearing more comparisons between the V200 and the gustard. I mean its a huge step up from what i had before but the scary thinga bout this hobby is that the escalation never seems to end haha.




Fair enough. The Gustard lacks the resolution of detail and space, next to the V200. Though the H10's top end comes across as relatively smooth, in comparison, some grain is evident. Don't get me wrong; it's a fine amplifier for the money like the M-Stage, but it's not a V200. The degree of difference in resolution and transparency simply cannot be overcome as it sits. I'd love to say that the H10 is a shade sway from the V200; hell, I would have bought one already, myself.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

shaffer said:


> I had a chance to borrow a Gustard; was thinking of getting one for the turntable, as I truly love my V200 in that application. Who ever said the two sound similar is nothing short of deaf. And that's just the tonal balance. Resolution? That must be the punchline of the joke. I didn't buy the Gustard, no reason to, as it's not an upgrade over any of my amps, and bought a Feliks Elise instead. Now, _that's_ an amplifier, as is the V200. Sorry, don't mean to rain on anyone's parade.







shaffer said:


> How friendly. Why are you rolling your eyes? Unlike you, I've had both amps in my system side-by-side.
> I've been involved with audio for ~40 years. This isn't my first rodeo. My friend has been using the amp for several months.
> My closest friend likes his Honda Element more than my Evolution IX. So what?
> 
> ...




I really appreciate someone who has finally been able to A/B both side by side. You perspective is invaluable. 

However, you completely misinterpreted the tone of basedigger's post. I would not react to a fricken emote like its a real face. I think he was genuinely curious though I do not want to speak for him. Then you proceeded to trash this entire thread and believed he was calling into question your invulnerable 40 years experience. Just chill out dude. I actually really valued your opinion but no need to get all pissed off and lose your "cool" because of genuine question. I am inclined to believe the V200 is not analogous to the H10 either.


----------



## DreamKing

It's the first negative comment I've seen in 151 pages. Was wondering when it would happen. But did you burn it in at all? It's been the repeating refrain all these pages so just wanna make sure the H10 was on equal footing to the V200.
  


shaffer said:


> Fair enough. The Gustard lacks the resolution of detail and space, next to the V200. Though the H10's top end comes across as relatively smooth, in comparison, some grain is evident. Don't get me wrong; it's a fine amplifier for the money like the M-Stage, but it's not a V200. The degree of difference in resolution and transparency simply cannot be overcome as it sits. I'd love to say that the H10 is a shade sway from the V200; hell, I would have bought one already, myself.


----------



## natemact

whoops forgot the quote


----------



## natemact

xevman said:


> I personally wouldn't roll op amps in the Gustard. I *feel* that it was designed specifically to use those opamps included with the unit, I *feel* that swapping them may have a negative impact on the amp itself then again im not an electrical engineer I just *feel* its better left the way it is.


 
  
 While clearly you can't swap opamps willy-nilly without regard to the circuit they will be used in, carefully selecting a compatible precision opamp can truly benefit the H10's already impressive sound clout...and I can assure you AD797AN's are 100% compatible in the H10's circuit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It just comes down to what sound signature you prefer and if you're smitten with the H10's slight warmish-neutral balance with extended treble and authoritative bass (me too) then I suggest the 797's as they managed to open up the H10's sound (remove veil/more transparent) and slightly increased micro/macro detail while staying true to the H10's original tone/timbre
  
 Here's hoping other H10 owners pop in a couple of 797's and take a listen instead of just speculating on the sound. I'm thinking _listening_ will get you a lot further along in this hobby than _feeling_....it's audiology, not _psych_ology


----------



## Shmuel

Natemact,

Can you provide a link for the purchase of this piece? And how many are needed?
I've read there have been many poorly constructed copies and I would certainly wish to avoid those. 

Thank you.


----------



## xevman

Now this has me curious, will be definately be testing the V200 in store against my Gustard H10 will document the differences and report back soon


----------



## jazzwave

xevman said:


> Now this has me curious, will be definately be testing the V200 in store against my Gustard H10 will document the differences and report back soon


 
  
 Please note, both amp should burned-in to get "real" sound.
  
 Btw, I just click EBay buy button ... .I'm waiting H10 arrive and pair with HD600
  
 ~ron~


----------



## GioF71

shaffer said:


> Fair enough. The Gustard lacks the resolution of detail and space, next to the V200. Though the H10's top end comes across as relatively smooth, in comparison, some grain is evident. Don't get me wrong; it's a fine amplifier for the money like the M-Stage, but it's not a V200. The degree of difference in resolution and transparency simply cannot be overcome as it sits. I'd love to say that the H10 is a shade sway from the V200; hell, I would have bought one already, myself.


 
  
 I think we adapt to the best device we own and use.
  
 For many users of in this forum thread (myself included, for sure) the Gustard H10 might be the best amp their ever owned. So they are probably completely satified with it, as I am.
  
 One user has compared it with the V200 he owned or listened to, and he told us the Gustard is better. He may be right.
 Shaffer might also be right when he says the Violectric V200 is much better than the Gustard H10.
  
 I do not own a V200 for a direct comparison. It the two users are in good faith as I believe, if we match the comments, we might say the Gustard is a good bargain for the price 
  
 Anyway I'd like to contribute by saying that every time I upgrade my gear, I start noticing how the performance of the previous devices is lacking, compared to the new ones.
 For example, I really enjoyed my Epiphany Acoustics' O2 amplifier, but, after hearing other amps, such as the Yulong D200 (dac/amp really) and the new Gustard H10, it is very hard for me to use such a limited amplifier.
  
 Still, the O2 is wonderful for its price and it has served me well.
 So considering my pleasant experience with the O2 I would suggest it to anyone who wants to start headphone listening more seriously than the casual listener, and does not want to spend a little fortune on this hobby.
  
 My 0.02€


----------



## xevman

jazzwave said:


> Please note, both amp should burned-in to get "real" sound.
> 
> Btw, I just click EBay buy button ... .I'm waiting H10 arrive and pair with HD600
> 
> ~ron~


 
 Believe me the v200 is a demo unit so will be burned in and my H10 has many many hours on it.


 Quote:


giof71 said:


> I think we adapt to the best device we own and use.
> 
> For many users of in this forum thread (myself included, for sure) the Gustard H10 might be the best amp their ever owned. So they are probably completely satified with it, as I am.
> 
> ...


 
 With a design so similar I cant see one being inherently worse then the other. The V200 is a fantastic amp as is the Gustard, with the V200 you are paying for the fact that it is made in Germany, R&D, aswell as the reputation of the brand itself. With the Gustard you are paying for none of that, hence why its so affordable and such a good amplifier at this price point. From an objective standpoint on paper both are very similar performing amps with similar toplogies to boot, but thats not to say that the V200 is a bad amp for the money (seriously what is made in Germany and is affordable) and I consider the V200 an affordable amp when it comes to high end audio in the scheme of things, its just that the Gustard is an absolute bargain.


----------



## natemact

shmuel said:


> Natemact,
> 
> Can you provide a link for the purchase of this piece? And how many are needed?
> I've read there have been many poorly constructed copies and I would certainly wish to avoid those.
> ...


 

 I'm in Canada so I used Parts Connexion but I'm sure Mouser has them. Just two AD797AN's are needed.


----------



## Shaffer

dreamking said:


> It's the first negative comment I've seen in 151 pages. Was wondering when it would happen. But did you burn it in at all?* It's been the repeating refrain all these pages so just wanna make sure the H10 was on equal footing to the V200.*




It's not. As previously mentioned, searching the thread shows one individual who actually owned a V200 many years ago (his words), and 4 pages of folks discussing the V200 who may have never even seen one outside of a pic. BTW, my comment was not negative; it pointed to the differences, and it's certainly not my fault that a Chinese clone doesn't sound like the real thing. Enjoy your Gustrds; I'm glad folks found an amp they like. Just don't compare it to the V200 for the sake of reality.


----------



## bavinck

shaffer said:


> It's not. As previously mentioned, searching the thread shows one individual who actually owned a V200 many years ago (his words), and 4 pages of folks discussing the V200 who may have never even seen one outside of a pic. BTW, my comment was not negative; it pointed to the differences, and it's certainly not my fault that a Chinese clone doesn't sound like the real thing. Enjoy your Gustrds; I'm glad folks found an amp they like. Just don't compare it to the V200 for the sake of reality.


 
 Ok, we got it. V200 is better than H10. Thanks for pointing that out.
  
 This is a real fun thread and your comments (the way they come across anyway) are jarring and antagonistic in comparison. You win more bees with honey, so they say
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Please stick around and join in the conversation - just tone down the intensity of your approach please


----------



## bavinck

natemact said:


> I'm in Canada so I used Parts Connexion but I'm sure Mouser has them. Just two AD797AN's are needed.


 
 I might give this a try if it works out for you. Let us know your findings.


----------



## bavinck

natemact said:


> While clearly you can't swap opamps willy-nilly without regard to the circuit they will be used in, carefully selecting a compatible precision opamp can truly benefit the H10's already impressive sound clout...and I can assure you AD797AN's are 100% compatible in the H10's circuit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Do you have any pics you can share that shows how to take out the stock opamps and replace with these new ones? I'm going to order 2 of the 797s and see if what you say is the objective truth


----------



## CingKrab

natemact said:


> While clearly you can't swap opamps willy-nilly without regard to the circuit they will be used in, carefully selecting a compatible precision opamp can truly benefit the H10's already impressive sound clout...and I can assure you AD797AN's are 100% compatible in the H10's circuit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry I'm just curious what your selection process was exactly and how did you assure that it's "100% compatible"?  The AD797 is a much higher bandwidth device than the OPA134 and how did you ensure that it's stable?


----------



## Shaffer

bavinck said:


> Ok, we got it. V200 is better than H10. Thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> This is a real fun thread and your comments (the way they come across anyway) are jarring and antagonistic in comparison. You win more bees with honey, so they say
> 
> Please stick around and join in the conversation - just tone down the intensity of your approach please:wink_face:




 A post mentioning a similarity to a V200 came into view and I responded, as it sure seemed like not a single individual here had both amps side-by-side. It's just something that got repeated over and over until it become the thread's status quo. BTW, I'm not about to apologize for my writing style; I shoot straight. If I'd bought a H10, I'd gladly participate, but I didn't. Good luck to you.


----------



## Shmuel

Natemact,

On Mouser store, I find the AD797ANZ.
Is this the correct unit, with the extra z on the end?

And info on removal/installation would be a big help as I've no such experience. 

Looking forward to getting the Gustard within the next few days. 

Shmuel


----------



## natemact

bavinck said:


> Do you have any pics you can share that shows how to take out the stock opamps and replace with these new ones? I'm going to order 2 of the 797s and see if what you say is the objective truth


 
 I don't think pics are really needed, just pull the OP134PA out of it's socket and pop in the AD797AN, you will need a pair of needle-nose pliers but couldn't be easier 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


cingkrab said:


> Sorry I'm just curious what your selection process was exactly and how did you assure that it's "100% compatible"?  The AD797 is a much higher bandwidth device than the OPA134 and how did you ensure that it's stable?


 
  I took the advice of my buddy who's an electrical engineer. Specs check out and he's heard of others replacing 134's with 797's to great effect....then I used my ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If there is any oscillation then it seems to improve the H10's sound, so oscillate away 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


shmuel said:


> Natemact,
> 
> On Mouser store, I find the AD797ANZ.
> Is this the correct unit, with the extra z on the end?
> ...


 
  
 That's the one. Like I mentioned just pull and push. Such a cheap and easy to install upgrade has got to get other Swabbies swapping.


----------



## stuartmc

natemact said:


> I don't think picks are really needed, just pull the OP1334PA out of it's socket and pop in the AD797AN, you will need a pair of needle-nose pliers but couldn't be easier
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ay Matey!...  I have been working on the other end of my headphone system, namely the usb-ddc, but now it's time to do some refitting of the mainsail.   I have two AD797's and two OPA2604's on the way now.  We will give her a go and see what gives the right cut of the Jib.


----------



## DreamKing

shaffer said:


> It's not. As previously mentioned, searching the thread shows one individual who actually owned a V200 many years ago (his words), and 4 pages of folks discussing the V200 who may have never even seen one outside of a pic. BTW, my comment was not negative; it pointed to the differences, and it's certainly not my fault that a Chinese clone doesn't sound like the real thing. Enjoy your Gustrds; I'm glad folks found an amp they like. Just don't compare it to the V200 for the sake of reality.


 
  
 I meant, _tested or A/B'ed _on equal footing. You made your opinion clear enough out the gate. "*It's been the repeating refrain all these pages so just wanna make sure the H10 was on equal footing to the V200.*" What I mean by that is that for most of these pages people have reported developing sound with burn-in. Was your H10 burned-in at all?
  
 not negative lol: "Who ever said the two sound similar is nothing short of deaf."
 "Just don't compare it to the V200 for the sake of reality." 
 I mean for an amp that has the exact same measurements/specs, and is similar internally. It's pretty blatant that it's going to be compared to the V200 and this is indeed based on reality.
  
 What you heard is new to the thread. I'd consider it more if it was an ABX volume matched test free of bias, but your opinion is noted. It would be interesting if more people made direct A/B comparisons between the amps. However, the way you go about it is suspect. Especially when you compared it to the Matrix M-stage lol....an amp made for high loads and greatly weaker to the H10 at any load. The H10 drives any impedance, just like the V200, at the same voltage peaks.


----------



## DreamKing

shaffer said:


> A post mentioning a similarity to a V200 came into view and I responded, as it sure seemed like not a single individual here had both amps side-by-side. It's just something that got repeated over and over until it become the thread's status quo. BTW, I'm not about to apologize for my writing style; I shoot straight. If I'd bought a H10, I'd gladly participate, but I didn't. Good luck to you.


 
  
 What's being repeated is the fact that they're identical in data/specs and similar internally...Can't argue over facts. I don't think anyone is making claims about what's better sounding or not without having both side-by-side.


----------



## natemact

stuartmc said:


> Ay Matey!...  I have been working on the other end of my headphone system, namely the usb-ddc, but now it's time to do some refitting of the mainsail.   I have two AD797's and two OPA2604's on the way now.  We will give her a go and see what gives the right cut of the Jib.


 
 Ahoy Cap'n! Interested in what the OPA2604's brings aboard the ship


----------



## MattTCG

I like the h10 enough that I decided to make a nice little box to give it a special place.


----------



## stuartmc

matttcg said:


> I like the h10 enough that I decided to make a nice little box to give it a special place.


 
 Awww...that's the cutest H10 cubby I ever did see.


----------



## Shmuel

Stuartmc, I have my H10 in shipping. Could you tell me where I can order the damping material that you have used for your amp?

Natemact, I ordered the op amp and look forward to seeing what it does. 

Thanks!


----------



## xevman

jazzwave said:


> Any experience with GUSTARD H10 pair with HD600?
> Please share your impression...
> 
> ~ron~


 
 I liked it so much I actually sold my Woo Audio WA6. I think that says enough.


----------



## SodaBoy

Well I don't own the H10 or the V200, no dog in this fight.
  
 But @Shaffer, let's see a photo of that V200 and H10 side by side. I'd like to hear your impressions on the setup as well.


----------



## BassDigger

dreamking said:


> I meant, _tested or A/B'ed _on equal footing. You made your opinion clear enough out the gate. "*It's been the repeating refrain all these pages so just wanna make sure the H10 was on equal footing to the V200.*" What I mean by that is that for most of these pages people have reported developing sound with burn-in. Was your H10 burned-in at all?
> 
> not negative lol: "Who ever said the two sound similar is nothing short of deaf."
> "Just don't compare it to the V200 for the sake of reality."
> ...


 
  
 I think that you're wasting your time; looking at this guy's input, so far, he's not here to contribute; he's here to shoot his gun and then have us marvel at how big it is.
 It's a shame; (according to him) he's the only one with _real_ knowledge (regarding the H10 & v200) and, looking at _his_ profile, I share some views and interests.
  
 But, I've only got an ebay A1 clone; you should just ignore this.


----------



## Shaffer

bassdigger said:


> I think that you're wasting your time; looking at this guy's input, so far, he's not here to contribute; he's here to shoot his gun and then have us marvel at how big it is.
> It's a shame; (according to him) he's the only one with _real_ knowledge (regarding the H10 & v200) and, looking at _his_ profile, I share some views and interests.
> 
> But, I've only got an ebay A1 clone; you should just ignore this. :rolleyes:




Do you guys just want to fight, because I don't think the Gustard is equivalent to a V200? Life is too short. Enjoy your amps, just try to make sure that you've actually heard what you're comparing them to. I don't think it's a lot to ask.


----------



## BassDigger

shaffer said:


> Do you guys just want to fight, because I don't think the Gustard is equivalent to a V200? Life is too short. Enjoy your amps, just try to make sure that you've actually heard what you're comparing them to. I don't think it's a lot to ask.


 
  
 Ok; I'll try...one...last...time.
  
 No, we don't want to fight; the fighting didn't start until you arrived.
  
 Of course, I guess no one here is happy to read what you have to say. But we can accept it.
  
 What we can't accept is first, your tone. And increasingly, the fact that you're not really backing up your opinion.
 e.g. Maybe your 'searches' of this thread don't really highlight that the H10 seems to be very 'affected' by its state of run in. For instance, the consensus seems to be that an h10 with 20-30 hours on it can sound _much_ worse than an h10 with 130 hours. So much so, that at least one member was considering an alternative use for his interconnects, until his amp had some more burn-in!
  
 Despite several requests, you have made no effort to include this consideration in your posts.
  
 So, please can you actually give some weight to your opinion, without waving any big (experience, reputation, attitude....) guns around, and write, as one should, with some consideration (and respect) for your audience.
 If you just want to write about whatever you want to, however you want to, shooting as straight as you want to, please can you do that somewhere else?
  
 As you say, life's too short....


----------



## natemact

My H10 sounded worse with ten hours on it than zero 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .......no really it did.
 Well said BassDigger


----------



## DreamKing

I generally give the benefit of the doubt to some troll like statements. There's genuine thought behind them after all, but this has been useless indeed.
 Quote:


bassdigger said:


> I think that you're wasting your time; looking at this guy's input, so far, he's not here to contribute; he's here to shoot his gun and then have us marvel at how big it is.
> It's a shame; (according to him) he's the only one with _real_ knowledge (regarding the H10 & v200) and, looking at _his_ profile, I share some views and interests.
> 
> But, I've only got an ebay A1 clone; you should just ignore this.


----------



## natemact

To what it's worth I had a Lake People G109P in my balanced turntable rig and the H10 stomped all over it....eventually. At first though they both kinda sucked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 LP was in your face..um..ears and brittle by comparison and there was no need to even compare soundstage because the LP didn't have one...well maybe I'm being dramatic but the H10's was wider, deeper, sexier wait no...deeper ha, you get the idea just that much better. Also had a hard time listening to the LP at moderately loud volumes as the sound just became way too hard and aggressive, combine that with it's already cool signature and we see why I kept the Gusty. Mind you this was done exclusively with he-560's and maybe the LP wasn't packing enough calories for the hungry 560's or maybe the two signatures clashed, but I kinda doubt the latter.
  
 The H10 with it's slight rosy glow just wants to play you music, meticulous like a HD800 it ain't but I'd say for the price it's very detailed going toe to toe with the G109. Now I've never had a V200 in my home but I'd be willing to think it's got the G109 beat...by how much...I think I have some idea


----------



## ansi

H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
  
 - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
 - Which headphones are you using with H10? 
 - What DAC are you using with H10?
 - Which headphones do you think match well with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
 - Which headphones do you think match poorly with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
 - Do you think H10 is good value? How much did you pay for yours?
 - Where did you purchase your H10?
 - Did you know your H10 has 1-year warranty regardless of where you bought it? Do you think 1-year warranty is enough?
  
 Thanks everyone in advance. You'll be contributing to the development of the next generation amp from Gustard.


----------



## Noodlz

Well, while i am still curious about the V200, that'll come at a later time...
  
 In the meanwhile, don't mind me as I get back on topic of being new member of the SS Gustard~ I am happy to report, that the burn in is very very real indeed. I was already super happy with my LCD2.2 pairing with the h10 at 50 hours. it is now SUPERB at around 70 hours of burn in. it's made another big jump, with improved soundstage, clearer and crisper highs, more natural vocals, and slightly improved bass response.
  
 The pianos sound SOOOOO good now. The sound stage has increased as well, like the stage is now 1.5 the size, but the sound hasn't gotten thinner, but it's gotten richer and fuller, like its bloomed more. When i listen to "the Book thief" by John Williams, its like everything is in strings of gold glistening with sprinkles of gold dust in shimmering, warm & rosy rays of light. 
  
 What's interesting is that with the dynamic cans i noticed only a slight improvement over time after the 25 hour mark, but the LCD 2.2 shows a remarkable improvement with further burn in. The Mad Dog 3.2 showed only slight improvements in contrast, despite being an ortho as well. (it's still performing better than the dynamic cans though)
  
 My LCD 2s now sound several leagues above everything else i own. When i say that i mean like going from watching 4K to DVD... now i have trouble listening to rest of the stuff i have.. Makes me kinda want to sell everything else i have & buy the LCD3's lol (i actually have LCD3F and XC's coming in tomorrow from thecablecompany headphone library rental program thing). Will try to report my findings on how they fare with this redonculous amp~~


----------



## Suopermanni

Anyone in Australia, based in Queensland, willing to lend me their H10 for a demo? I will reciprocate with my Violectrc V200! I am very curious as to how well this thing does to the V200, given that it is a comparison made often.


----------



## Noodlz

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
  
 Improvements: Its pretty damn amazing as is~ and I think it's impossible to make everything perfect as there is always a give and take. That said, it would be great if this amp worked as well with dynamic headphones as they did with orthodynamics, and it'd be nice if this had a balanced XLR out
  
 Headphones i'm using with the H10: Audeze LCD 2.2, Kennerton Magistre, AKG K550, Mad Dog 3.2, Koss KSC75 (these little cheapo cans actually sound damn good with the parts express headband mod)
  
 DAC: Was using wyred4sound µDAC HD, but now i'm using Geek out 450 with audio quest 3.5 to RCA adapter. They both sound great but i'm looking to upgrade to the X20 when its out, so gonna sell the µDAC to help fund that. Oh and songs are played back through tidal.
  
 Headphones that match well - Audeze LCD 2.2. Absolutely GORGEOUS. 
  
 Headphones that match poorly - all of my headphones work well with it so far, but the orthodynamic (aka planar magnetic) headphones pair far better. With dynamic headphones its like taking the headphones 2 or 3 notches above (out of 10 per level), but with the LCD 2.2 its like moving up 2 or 3 whole levels. They sound like different headphones.
  
 Value & where i bought it - i think it is fantastically valued. best purchase i've every made. I paid $350 shipped from pollychen on ebay
  
 warranty - didn't know there was one actually. I would actually really hope this amp remains awesome for a much longer time, like the next 10 years lol. (which is probably not that much to ask. I've had my presonus central station since 2003 and its still going strong.)
  
  
 Looking forward to that X20!! (and the H-2-O whenever its out =P )
  
 side note: someone should totally hook up @Suopermanni for a comparison with the V200~ too bad I'm based in the US. Super far lol.


----------



## mmlogic

Cheer up folks, I couldn’t say H10 is as good as V200, because I only owned a V200 for few days, not long enough to place any judgement, but I can assure you it’s in the same league with Taboo3, Solo UL, Soloist, Beta22 and Mjolnir.
 I’ve been using H10 side by side with TABOO3 for 6 months, and as you can see in the picture (where is Gus), I used them to drive HE560, LCD3 and PS1000.


----------



## fritobugger

- What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?

Line out would be nice. A slightly less warm sound. No enough documentation. 

- Which headphones are you using with H10? 
HE-500, HE-400i, K7XX

- What DAC are you using with H10?
SMSL M8

- Which headphones do you think match well with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
The three listed above. 

- Which headphones do you think match poorly with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
No idea. 
- Do you think H10 is good value? Yes

How much did you pay for yours? Not saying

- Where did you purchase your H10? In Shanghai

- Did you know your H10 has 1-year warranty regardless of where you bought it? Yes, but I have no idea how to claim it if there is a problem. 

Do you think 1-year warranty is enough? No idea.


----------



## Suopermanni

On that note, does anyone know what the URL for the Gustard DACs is? I have heard of the X12, I think it is? Wondering if it does sound better than the AudioLab MDAC or the flavour of the month, Pulse Sfi?


----------



## Lohb

mmlogic said:


> but I can assure you it’s in the same league with Taboo3, Solo UL, Soloist, Beta22 and Mjolnir.


 

 Is there anything it has over Beta22, or Beta22 beats it out on clearly ?


----------



## mmlogic

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
 - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
 The look, and the packaging is really sloppy.
  
 - Which headphones are you using with H10? 
 HE560, LCD2/3, PS1000
  
 - What DAC are you using with H10?
 Metrum Octave, Calyx 192
  
 - Which headphones do you think match well with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
 HE560-very good, LCD2/3-good, PS1000-so so
  
 - Which headphones do you think match poorly with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
 None at the moment
  
 - Do you think H10 is good value? How much did you pay for yours?
 I want to say too good, but I'm afraid it'll make the next generation Gustard machine not so affordable like current ones. I paid 290 USD for H10.
  
 - Where did you purchase your H10?
 Taobao
  
 - Did you know your H10 has 1-year warranty regardless of where you bought it? Do you think 1-year warranty is enough?
 I know and it's enough for the current pricing


----------



## mmlogic

lohb said:


> Is there anything it has over Beta22, or Beta 22 beats it out on clearly ?


 
 I'm not 100% sure, don't have the beta22 anymore, but I feel beta22 is more dynamic and H10 is more refined.
 BTW, my 3ch beta22 was built by a local builder in Taiwan.


----------



## MattTCG

shaffer said:


> Do you guys just want to fight, because I don't think the Gustard is equivalent to a V200? Life is too short. Enjoy your amps, just try to make sure that you've actually heard what you're comparing them to. I don't think it's a lot to ask.


 
  
 I have heard both amps, the v200 on several occasions, and now own the h10. When I heard the h10 I found that it offered comparable performance levels and in some instances I actually liked the h10 better (h10 was a little more resolving up top and threw a slightly better soundstage). Does my experience count?


----------



## Lohb

mmlogic said:


> and H10 is more refined.


 
 Pretty great, as I know how high a good B22 build is held by seasoned members and even amp designers.


----------



## mylica

Just swap my opamp with 797.  Will let listen for awhile and see if it is a good change.
  
 Using HD600


----------



## genclaymore

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
 -Not much I can think of maybe a pre-out connection.Or raise the op-amp sockets a tad so nothing is in the way of swapping them.Or maybe Give option for different op-amp to be installed from the factory.
 -I using Hifiman HE-500 with my Gustard H10.
 -I using a Bifrost uber dac with it with a Gustard U12 connected to it.
 -After using my HE-500 for a while with the H10, I believed people when they mention that the H10 was a good match for the HE-500.
 -The H10 is a very great amp for the price, wished i knew about it before hand,So I could had gotten it from the start instead of the asgard 2 I had. I paid 319 total from massdrop.
 -Massdrop
 -I didn't know it had warranty, Personally I don't think  1 year warranty is enough 3-5 would be enough as things can happen after a year.But if it add more to the price then 1 year is fine.


----------



## Shaffer

matttcg said:


> I have heard both amps, the v200 on several occasions, and now own the h10. When I heard the h10 I found that it offered comparable performance levels and in some instances I actually liked the h10 better (h10 was a little more resolving up top and threw a slightly better soundstage). Does my experience count?




No. You might as well say that you saw a V200 on several occasions. Auditioning a component takes time and must be done in one's own system.

For example, listening to a system at a show. I've been to quite a few. Does it mean that I heard every component in the room? Of course not. When we were interested in a given piece, we had the manufacturer send us a demo. Then, we could actually audition it in our own systems and decide whether we wanted to work with the product.

I have no interest in this thread. I made one post based on my own experience, and all of a sudden a hornet's nest is stirred, because someone doesn't think the Chinese clone is as good as the real thing. Deal with it. Like I keep saying, enjoy your amps.


----------



## LancerFIN

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 

 -The recessed area where the jack is located is too small. Not all plugs fit.
 If it was the same size size as X12 it would be enough and better match aesthetically. Also for the love of god stop making X12 in different colors. I am still angry for my X12 and H10 not color matching. Power button and the green led feels too cheap.
 -I am using LCD-2F with H10. Lovely pairing
 -DAC is of course Gustard X12


----------



## BassDigger

matttcg said:


> I have heard both amps, the v200 on several occasions, and now own the h10. When I heard the h10 I found that it offered comparable performance levels and in some instances I actually liked the h10 better (h10 was a little more resolving up top and threw a slightly better soundstage). Does my experience count?
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Shaffer*
> ...


 
  
 Matt, don't do it. Just walk away. He's not worth it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 ..and he just don't read right; all attempts at communication are futile.


----------



## Suopermanni

Umm...I may be an outsider to this SS-Gustard but even I can see that continuing that path in the conversation didn't going to do anyone, including Shaffer, any good. Please, can we not sink each other's boats for now?


----------



## mylica

suopermanni said:


> Umm...I may be an outsider to this SS-Gustard but even I can see that continuing that path in the conversation didn't going to do anyone, including Shaffer, any good. Please, can we not sink each other's boats for now?


 

 Any opinion is of course welcome.  It is just they way he delivered his opinion with some harsh word as in insulting.  That is the issue.
 But anyway yes, lets move on and any comparison with h10 are welcome.


----------



## jazzwave

xevman said:


> I liked it so much I actually sold my Woo Audio WA6. I think that says enough.


 
 Understood ..
 H10...statusrdered
  
  
 ~ron~


----------



## mylica

jazzwave said:


> Understood ..
> H10...statusrdered
> 
> 
> ~ron~


 

 I am using my HD600 with H10.  I like it


----------



## BassDigger

suopermanni said:


> Umm...I may be an outsider to this SS-Gustard but even I can see that continuing that path in the conversation didn't going to do anyone, including Shaffer, any good. Please, can we not sink each other's boats for now?


 
  
 Yeah, sorry for my part. I guess I still had hope for the guy. I'll batten down the hatches and let my cannon cool off.
 I still hope to read more details about comparisons between the H10 and other amps, especially with the LCD2.


----------



## Walderstorn

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> 1- What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> 2- Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
 1- Volume control pot, non-recessed socket, make it easier to swap opamps.
 2- HD600, HD598
 3- Musical Fidelity V90
 4- HD600
 5- Only the crap ones i have around the house, so no point in mentioning them.
 6- Yes, 350.
 7- EBay
 8-  Yes. No, im used to 2 in EU.  Also do a website.


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> Yeah, sorry for my part. I guess I still had hope for the guy. I'll batten down the hatches and let my cannon cool off.
> I still hope to read more details about comparisons between the H10 and other amps, especially with the LCD2.


 
 I have purposely avoided any commentary on that little dust up.  I don't like feeding the troll. Maybe it's because I too have ~40 years in audio and nearly 20 of them as associate editor of an audio publication. Ha ha...did I just say that?!  Seriously though, I have learned an awful lot from the youngsters here and the enthusiasm on this thread is primarily responsible for my return from a self-imposed audio exile. 
  
 As to your second proposition, I very much enjoy the comparisons too.  Ken Ball of ALO Audio is sending me some of his tasty headphone cables for my HE-560....AND.... I will be one of the first to get my hands on the new "Continental" for review.

  
 This little guy got a lot of raves at the recent SoCal Can Jam and I will of course be comparing it to our beloved H10.


----------



## ansi

Thanks a lot for everyone who answered the questionnaire this far. Looks not everyone thinks there's room for improvement, but of course there is - there always is. Think of it as a wishlist for the upcoming amp. If you could change one thing in your H10 at no cost, what would it be?
  
 PS. @LancerFIN hey, my countryman who has Gustard kit. If you ever need more Gustard kit, let me know and I'll hook you up.


----------



## mylica

ansi said:


> Thanks a lot for everyone who answered the questionnaire this far. Looks not everyone thinks there's room for improvement, but of course there is - there always is. Think of it as a wishlist for the upcoming amp. If you could change one thing in your H10 at no cost, what would it be?
> 
> PS. @LancerFIN hey, my countryman who has Gustard kit. If you ever need more Gustard kit, let me know and I'll hook you up.


 
  
 Not sure, but i changed the opamp to 797.


----------



## Kozic

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


1- RCAs out
2- LCD2.2F,Mad dog pro,T90
3- bluesound node,T1
4- LCD and mad dog
5- T90 are good just not as good as the planars
6- Yes $300
7- Massdrop
8- Yes,1 year is OK my other amp came with a 5 year.


----------



## stuartmc

Ansi, Thanks for being our direct liaison with the Gustard boys. Here is my brief take on your questions:
  
  
  1- Eliminate the green power light for something less bright. Have a proper machined socket for the case screws. For those of us who get inside often, the threading into the case can get pretty bad.  Uniform case color please - my X12 doesn't match the H10.
 2- HifiManHE-560; HE-400i and HD600
 3- Gustard X12
 4- They all do, but the HifiMans really stand out.
 5- None that I have.
 6- An extraordinary value. I think my price was just under 350.
 7- Pollychen on EBay
 8- I was not aware when I purchased, but now I am. I think a 2 or 3 year warranty would improve the perception of Western purchasers.
  
 Tell the boys that the Captain is preparing a special berth for the X20!


----------



## auvgeek

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
 - I really like the H10, but I think a little more in the  bass/sub-bass region and greater dynamics might be appreciated. If you're building a balanced amp, have it be balanced end-to-end without an SE out.
 - HE-560 (mainly), LCD-2F, DT-150, and DT-880
 - Theta Basic III (currently); Schiit Gungnir, Audio-gd Compass (previously) 
 - HE-560 and LCD-2F. Particularly the HE-560
 - DT-150 and DT-880. Note: It's not that these headphones are a poor match, it's just that they don't scale as well as the planars. Frankly, I'd rather Gustard focus on an amp designed for planars/orthos.
 - Yes, I think it's an excellent value. I paid USD $350 shipped.
 -  Pollychen on eBay
 - I didn't, probably because there is no Gustard website and the amp didn't come with a manual. I think that companies should take care of their customers. Customer service is much more important than some stated warranty. A website with contact information (i.e., an email address) would go a long way.


----------



## Walderstorn

Lucky Stuart, but deserved ehhe.


----------



## natemact

1- non-recessed socket, slightly closer to neutral signature with a sparkling and airy treble (so it plays better with warmish phones such as Audeze and Oppo IMHO), digital volume control (not a pot) or at least a great pot like a Noble, Plitron transformers and other high-quality parts (caps, buffers, transistors, resistors etc...amp's only as good as the weakest link Neutrik silver plated XLR connetors, OCC copper iec socket and OCC wire connecting iec socket to transformers, fixed gain if the shorter signal path means improved sonics and no SE headphone output (save money)...too much to ask for in a fully balanced, dual-mono design for under $1K...yep, but I can wish.
 2- HE-560 Jerg mod v1.5
 3- No DAC, just a high-end turntable rig
 4- IMO the 560's w/jerg are the best matching headphones I've heard for the H10, and this includes owning a pair of LCD-X's (in comparison I found the X's too colored when  driven by the H10, I attributed this to the warmish nature of this amp) Haven't heard LCD-3's, Abyss's or HE1K's on it but I'm thinking I wouldn't fall head over heels for the 3's as I found even the X's mids too thick, DaltonLanny sheepishly mentioned that he though even the HE1K's sounded superb on the H10 (that took balls...HiFiMAN's as a brand are the best match it seems...except HE-6
 5- Dynamic headphones don't really get on with the H10 like planars do, but that's OK for me as I'd rather Gustard put all their eggs in one basket and focus on designing a terrific balanced planar amp rather than compromising their amp's planar performance just to accommodate dynamic phones  
 6- Tremendous value...but don't let it get to your head Gustard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I paid $350US
 7- Ebay
 8- Ya but I wouldn't know it if it wasn't for you. For the cost one is typical but two years would be great, maybe even five on the H20 but that might be pushing it considering Gustard's prices
  
 A website and some sort of documentation would be great too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks so much Ansi for letting the Gustard guys in on our thoughts.


----------



## Koolpep

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 

 Hi Ansi!
  
 Pleasure to give my feedback:
 - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
 I really like the sound a lot. However, more power for planars (just a bit more)...
  
 - Which headphones are you using with H10? 
 HE-560, LCD2f, HD-650, K7XX
  
 - What DAC are you using with H10?
 CEntrance DACmini CX - an amazing synergetic combination - blind tested with @Jozurr a few days back and he could identify the DACMini every single time (vs. Schiit Modi, Modi2U and X5 used as DACs)
  
 - Which headphones do you think match well with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
 HE-560, LCD2f, HD650 and K7XX all sound pretty amazing with it
  
 - Which headphones do you think match poorly with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
 Sony MDR-1A other headphones with low impedance
  
 - Do you think H10 is good value? How much did you pay for yours?
 Bought it used from a fellow head-fier for $275
  
 - Where did you purchase your H10?
 see above
  
 - Did you know your H10 has 1-year warranty regardless of where you bought it? Do you think 1-year warranty is enough?
 No. Also, I assume this is a company warranty. But how am I supposed to contact Gustard? There seems to be no "Gustard" company to reach. 
 I would prefer the EU mandated of 2 years (some things the EU does are great for consumers).
  
 So - who do I contact and how if I need help or service/repairs. I couldn't find anything on the web. This nearly made me not buy the amp, since I felt I would have NO support whatsoever. I am glad I still bought it as I love my H10.
  
 Please share with us how we can contact Gustard.
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## xxx1313

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
  
 1) Keep the sound signature (neutral to slightly warm, no sibilance). Resolution and soundstage could be slightly better. A bit more power would also be good. (My only comparison is Auralic Taurus MKII. This comparison is rather unfair, because this is another price range).
 2) Audeze LCD-3F, Audeze LCD-2F
 3) Auralic ARK MX+
 4) Planars
 5) Not sure
 6) Very good value. Paid 350 US$ + customs (about 40 US$) in Europe.
 7) Ebay (pollychen)
 8) Yes, I knew. In Europe 2-year warranty is common, but for a product with such good value 1 year is enough.


----------



## DreamKing

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
  
 -RCA out would be interesting for my purposes. I agree that eliminating the green power LED for something less bright would be nice. Keep the transparent sound. To cover the harder to drive headphones like the HE-6, at least a 4.5W-5W output at ~35 ohms would be nice. 
 -HE-560, SZ2000, K550, Perfect Seal SportBud Silver
 -Beresford Bushmaster MKII
 -HE-560, the rest of my headphones don't benefit from it at all vs my other amp
 -None.
 -The H10 is most probably the best value in any amp currently available. I payed $350 and felt like I stole it.
 -Ebay, from Pollychen
 -I had no idea. I think more is better, so 2 years minimum.


----------



## olek

Wow, 2 days away and so much activity.
  
 First of all, as resident H10 'doubter', I have to say that we are so lucky that we have avoided people like that ... expert ... so far. Tone of that initial email was borderline OK, information was interesting, but than that response to emoticon was completely unwarranted, as much as the rest of pontification. It is OK to not like H10 (come on, I myself am listening those days to Crack/Speedball almost exclusively), it OK to say that V200 > H10, but it is not OK to snap at people. Not to imply anything, but my previous employer had written rule in their HR handbook on hiring guidelines: 'No a$$ho1es allowed' (no matter the talent/experience). Best rule ever. Best team I ever worked with, too.
  
 As for feedback, please tell Gustard that I would not mind it to have a tiny bit more low-bass (~70Hz) and more vivid dynamics with dynamic high impedance headphones.
 Also, if there is no manual, at least include a digram of dip-switches with it with their meaning  - that will save a lot of frustration for people.
  
 I suspect low bass performance and dynamics are the reasons why I use Crack more often those days. H10 sounds good, but it feels like river of sound passes by my side, and I am observing its beautiful waves from the outside, vs with Crack I feel like I am in the middle of that same river and waves are washing over me. Again, that is with my headphones (non-planar), my sources (non-fancy), and my ears (non-perfect).
  
 Very excited to see renaissance of opamp rolling here, and very curious to hear feedback from guinea pigs of those tests, especially those using non-planar phones.


----------



## fritobugger

ansi said:


> Thanks a lot for everyone who answered the questionnaire this far. Looks not everyone thinks there's room for improvement, but of course there is - there always is. Think of it as a wishlist for the upcoming amp. If you could change one thing in your H10 at no cost, what would it be?
> 
> PS. @LancerFIN hey, my countryman who has Gustard kit. If you ever need more Gustard kit, let me know and I'll hook you up.




One thing at no added cost? Either RCA line outs or make it a bit more neutral/brighter. That said, I am happy with it.


----------



## DreamKing

Also, I agree that Gustard should completely avoid a single-ended output if they plan on making a fully-balanced amp. @ansi


----------



## Lohb

dreamking said:


> Also, I agree that Gustard should completely avoid a single-ended output if they plan on making a fully-balanced amp. @ansi


 

 or just provide both connections in H10 v2.


----------



## BassDigger

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> ...
> 
> Thanks everyone in advance. You'll be contributing to the development of the next generation amp from Gustard.


 
  
 Might this request be in connection with finalising the design of the 'H20'? Is it more to do with a future H10 version 2?


----------



## Noodlz

So just wanted to report some surprising findings here regarding the pairings for the H10 and some audeze LCD's. Received the borrowed LCD-XC and the LCD-3 (fazor) from thecablecompany today. I have my own LCD 2.2 non-fazor (though it has a 3D printed fazor installed - but according to the original owner they're very close to stock)
  

  
*Testing Notes:* my H10 is at roughly 100 hours of burn in now, and its sounding absolutely fantastic~ i'm playing everything with a +6 gain setting on the H10. Sources to the H10 is from laptop > Schitt wyrd > Geek out 450 > AudioQuest 3.5 to RCA > MIT AVT3 RCA > Gustard H10.
  
 I tested every LCD using both the stock cables as well as my custom silver cables to make sure its a fair comparison (and yes, the cables make a HUGE difference compared to audeze stock cables. they suck. lol). All the music was played back from Tidal. 
  
 I also compared the headphones from the H10 to my old Schitt Asgard 1 amp & kenwood KR770 vintage receiver with same signal chain.
  
*LCD 3F (lambskin pads) vs LCD 2.2 non-fazor (Vegan Pads)*
  
 I should state that i had the expectation of the 3Fs to blow the 2.2's out of the water, from what i remember when comparing them with other amps before. With the H10 powering the Audezes to its top potential (at least as far as my experiences go with them), the 2.2 now goes head to head with the 3Fs now, which was a huge surprise to me.
  
 The differences are very very close now when powered by the Gustard. as opposed to when using a lesser amp, the difference is far more significant. When i found that the fullness / richness of the 2.2 really blooms to its real potential with the H10. with less amps they sound muffled / muddy / thinner / more thick chocolate than caramel latte. 
  
 Now the impedances / efficiencies of the headphones are different so i tried to volume match as much as possible. For the H10, the 2.2 at around the 10 o'clock knob position, while the 3F at 9:30 o'clock knob position. Strictly comparing using the H10, the 3F is slightly sharper, glossier, and more pinpoint positioned, where as the 2.2 is fuller but slightly more rounded, in comparison. the 3F also seems to have the vocals more forward than the 2.2.
  
 Comparatively the gap between them is much smaller now (i'd say like a 2-3% difference? cables make a 5-10% difference in my opinion, so maybe that gives an idea where the %s come from). When using lesser amps this gap is pushed pretty far. with the kenwood it goes to like a 15% difference between the headphones. with the asgard its like a 20-30% difference. 
  
 In my opinion (as well as a couple friends of mine who listened to them today, some of them i had them try it with a blind test), the (burned in) Gustard H10 elevates sound quality the LCD 2.2 to same level as the LCD 3F's. I feel now that with a gustard H10 + LCD 2.2 classic it makes me question if the upgrade to a 3F is worth it not sure if i'd want to pay an extra $1000 for a 2-3% improved fidelity. I wonder too with the LCD 2.2 Fazors maybe that gap may be reduced as far as fidelity. I do have to say that i largely prefer lusher / warmer sounds so I do favor the no fazors. Plus the the 2.2 non-fazors have distinctively better bass than the 3F's in my opinion.
  
_**side note. I hope Audeze would make make headphones like the original non-fazors. I feel like their new headphones (Fazors & the El-8's) are a step in the wrong direction, where they're sacrificing that perfectly flat bass response & the signature creamy sound for a thinner, sharper, neutral but generic sounds.  _
  
  
*LCD XC - lambskin pads*
 The XC is quite nice with the H10. It's closer to the signature of the 3F with everything being sharper, maybe a little too sharp (i hear it as a more obtuse sharpness as opposed to the 3F's sheen airier clear presentation). It seems to even more efficient than the 3F's so i had tested these at the 9 o'clock knob position when comparing. It's got better fidelity, bass impact, and fuller sound using the H10 than comparing to other amps.
  
 Compared to the 3F and 2.2 though since it is a closed back it's got a slightly smaller soundstage, and timbre of everything is slightly less natural / more "digital" sounding. Which actually makes it a really nice pair for EDM music. (vocals and instruments still sound awesome, it just that the open back LCD's do it better). The signature of the XC also have a more "hollow" / V shaped sound compared to the 3F / 2.2 when using the H10.
  
 When testing with a lesser amp the improvements are actually very minor comparatively. with the asgard /kenwood the its not as sharp / is fuzzier, bass is looser,  but its still pretty stellar. i feel like these aren't as power hungry to perform their best when compared to the 3F and 2.2 
  
 So to summarize, i think the LCD 2.2 non-fazors benefit the most from the H10, the XC's benefits the least. with the H10 the LCD 2.2 is transformed and becomes just as good as the 3F, maybe just a tick less in fidelity, but with better bass and creamier presentation.


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Firstly, thanks for taking the time to write such an informative post; it's almost an article! This is the kind of thing that this forum is all about!!
  
 A query: you say that the h10 closes the gap between lcds 2 & 3. That's not necessarily a good thing; the 3s are supposed to be a superior, and more revealing, phone that should work better with better electronics. I can only surmise that maybe you're right; the h10 partners better with the lcd2, and you prefer the balance of the lcd2, over the 3.
  
 Regarding the direction that Audeze are going, with their sound signature. I think that I may share your concerns; I've not heard the non-fazor, but the lcd2f is plenty clear enough; the bass doesn't go all the way down (not with my current amp) and I wouldn't want phones with a leaner sound sig, than these; they're not the super creamy bass monsters that some imply. But overall, I'm very impressed.
  
 Cables? (Sorry; more OT). Have you posted your impressions about the cables that you've tried? This is the thread that I'm aware of:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/503640/what-cables-for-audeze-lcd-2/120#post_11641677
 I'd like to hear about your thoughts.
  
 I still won't be ordering my H10 for a few weeks. And then it's gonna take me another few weeks to get anything like the best out of it, judging by other's burn in experiences. But as I own some lcd2fs, your words, and those that also give the thumbs up to the use of this amp with planars, gets me full of anticipation!


----------



## JimmyJohns99

Are people buying the h10 from amazon? shipped from china i assume? Smooth transaction/delivery?


----------



## Noodlz

@JimmyJohns99 I had a pretty good experience buying from china / ebay'er pollychen. very quick and smooth. only thing i had to do though was open up the unit to switch the voltage to 110 since im in the US
  
@BassDigger sure thing just wanted share my experiences =P Yeah i was really hoping that the 3's would crush the 2.2 when i finally got them in, but alas it is not so with my current setup. they are ever so slightly more revealing and more efficient than the 2.2's though. As far as the audeze's i'm actually wondering now how the new EL-8 pairs with the H10 (closed and open back). when i heard them at the show i was not impressed at all, but maybe it just wasn't amped properly? Also curious about how the oppo PM 1/2 and PM3's pair with this amp now. Curiosity is super dangerous to the wallet. lol
  
 about the cables: Hadn't come across that thread thanks! i'll see if i can contribute to it later. My experience with cables on the audeze is pretty limited though, considering that i only have a pair of custom silver wires that came with the LCD 2.2 i bought. I will say though that comparing the silver wire to the standard wires, all the LCD's are distinctively looser, softer, thinner, and with less impact. Soundstage doesnt seem to change bunch between the cables. What i'd deduce from that would be that the stock cables are just sub-par. I would have liked to compare these cans with the full Vero reference cables from MIT but those guys are taking forever to process the orders...so chances are i won't be able to make the comparison (will need to return the borrowed LCD3 and XCs in a week)


----------



## Liu Junyuan

natemact said:


> My H10 sounded worse with ten hours on it than zero
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Not alone. I almost sold mine on day's 2 and 3 of burn in since it sounded so awful, worse than day 1. Day 4 something happened...


----------



## Liu Junyuan

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
 1. The volume pot would be better if not made from plastic. Otherwise, the connectors in the back are amazing as is. The recessed plug in the front has not posed a problem for me, but I know it has for others. Sound is "spot-on," but perhaps just more slightly neutral and less warm would be ideal.
 2. HE-500, HD 650, K7XX, HD 800
 3. Theta Digital DS Pro Progeny and formerly a Schiit Audio Gungnir Gen 2
 4. All of them I have tried, with special mention for my low impedance headphones like HiFiMAN and AKGs. However, the HD 650s and HD 800s sound very nice too. 
 5. None from my experience. The H10 is a veritable "all-rounder."
 6. Yes, I purchased from a Massdrop special for less than 300 USD.
 7. Massdrop
 8. No, but how would one know currently? 2 years, at least, would be much better than 1 year--by "leaps and bounds."


----------



## Liu Junyuan

natemact said:


> To what it's worth I had a Lake People G109P in my balanced turntable rig and the H10 stomped all over it....eventually. At first though they both kinda sucked
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Since I personally was "set on" on the G109P for several months as my SS amp, this verifies what I have heard elsewhere, from Flysweep and others. I am glad I found the H10!


----------



## networkn

Hi. 
  
 I was recommended this AMP and am seriously considering it. 
  
 I have the HD650 and the T1's and I read through 30 pages and then thought it was easier to ask for someone to give a quick review of the T1's with the H10. I have a Crack Amp currently (No speedball). 
  
 Also is there a retailer in the US that has one I can buy this week? If not I need to get from Ebay and ship and pay shipping (I have a friend coming back from the US on the 15th.
  
 I'd consider a second hand one if it was in perfect condition.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

networkn said:


> Hi.
> 
> I was recommended this AMP and am seriously considering it.
> 
> ...




While I do recommend this amp, why don't you have the speedball on your Crack? That is going to destroy th H10 for your particular high impedance headphones. If you go Crack, Speedball is critical.


----------



## networkn

liu junyuan said:


> While I do recommend this amp, why don't you have the speedball on your Crack? That is going to destroy th H10 for your particular high impedance headphones. If you go Crack, Speedball is critical.


 
  
 I own the upgrade, but my initial Crack had issues which only got resolved a few weeks ago and I haven't had a chance to install them.
  
 Are you saying I shouldn't bother with the H10 if I have the Crack and Speedball?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

networkn said:


> I own the upgrade, but my initial Crack had issues which only got resolved a few weeks ago and I haven't had a chance to install them.
> 
> Are you saying I shouldn't bother with the H10 if I have the Crack and Speedball?





Well thats good you have the kit. I suggest you install it before looking elsewhere. The Crack+Speedball paired with HD 650 is going to be amazing. I would suspect much better than the H10, not because the H10 is weak, but because the Crack/SB + HD 650 is godlike bliss. If you were looking into a HiFiMAN planar, the exact same description would apply to the H10.


----------



## networkn

liu junyuan said:


> Well thats good you have the kit. I suggest you install it before looking elsewhere. The Crack+Speedball paired with HD 650 is going to be amazing. I would suspect much better than the H10, not because the H10 is weak, but because the Crack/SB + HD 650 is godlike bliss. If you were looking into a HiFiMAN planar, the exact same description would apply to the H10.


 
  
 Thanks, what about for the T1?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

networkn said:


> Thanks, what about for the T1?




I have no experience with it. I do have experience with the DT 880 600 ohm, and from my sense it will not scale as high as the Sennheiser. Yet I would think the high impedance 600 ohm T1 would thrive with the OTL Crack. 

The HD 650 scales indefinitely but you will see its true self through the SB/Crack. I think of the HD 650 and H10 pairing as " beautiful." But you will be thinking of the Crack/SB pairing as "sublime," unspeakably good. Just go for it and I will "eat my words" should you be disappointed. The more supreme headphone you own is the HD 650 imo. Especially in its current silver driver iteration, it is one of the best headphones ever made, a true classic, more resolving than the LCD-3 and half if the other garbage "touted" as "summit-fi." 

If you have a nice planar, though (HiFiMAN HE-560, 500, 400i, 400s, LCD-2.2), H10 is difficult to best under 1 K USD. HE-6 and HE-K are going to need something different, I think, especially the HE-6.


----------



## Noodlz

@Liu Junyuan wow that sounds amazing. I'll have to try an hd 650 / crack+SB sometime. what kind of tubes were you using when comparing the hd650 to the LCD3s? Would you say that the 650s would be close to (or even surpass) the fidelity of the LCD3s when using the H10? I'm super curious now lol


----------



## olek

networkn said:


> I own the upgrade, but my initial Crack had issues which only got resolved a few weeks ago and I haven't had a chance to install them.
> 
> Are you saying I shouldn't bother with the H10 if I have the Crack and Speedball?


 
  
 Yes.
  
 I own HD650 and DT880 (younger sibling of your T1 - wishful thinking on my part, I know), Crack (with Speedball currently installed but it was not that way always), and H10.
  
 If you switch from plain Crack to H10 you will gain much, notably detail, detail, and one more time detail. You may lose some low bass on HD650, and some euphonics. But overall that is going to be a major win. But it makes sense to do only if you are tired of tubes, and want to go with more convenient SS.
  
 Speedball upgrade will give you same benefits as H10, but ... more of it  Overall sound of upgraded Crack is very similar (extremely so), but superior to H10 in most aspects when using high impedance headphones.
  
 In my opinion plain Crack is ... meh - good example of what tube sound is, with its strong euphonics and smooth 'detail hiding' capability. Crack with Speedball is totally different sound, really combining bests aspects of SS and tube sound. And to say that H10 is only a little bit behind it is actually a compliment to H10.
  
 Now, if you owned planars... that would be totally different story, since Crack is one of the worst possible choices for them, and H10 is one of the best. This difference would not likely be subtle 
  
 As you see, I am in total agreement with Liu on the subject. Get that soldering iron out and just do it.


----------



## Jozurr

koolpep said:


> - What DAC are you using with H10?
> CEntrance DACmini CX - an amazing synergetic combination - blind tested with @Jozurr a few days back and he could identify the DACMini every single time (vs. Schiit Modi, Modi2U and X5 used as DACs)


 
  
 I confirm this. @Koolpep was kind enough to let me try the H10, and compare it to the Magni2U. We also tried multiple DACs with the H10. There was a noticeable difference between the Modi, Modi 2U and the X5 used as a DAC and the DACmini CX while using the Gustard H10, even though the DACmini and the Modi have the same chip. The DACMini with the H10 had better slam and the bass notes hit harder whereas the with the modi they more flabbier. I'm pretty positive of what I heard as I went blind back and forth a few times.
  
 The question now is, which DAC would give similar results to the DACMini while not emptying the bank? Are any of the H10 owners using the H10 with different DACs and would like to post some comparisons? Maybe if someone has the H10 and Modi and another DAC, it would be interesting to confirm what I heard. 
  
 With anyone using multiple DACs with the H10, what kind of differences do you guys hear, if any?
  
 Please note that all these findings are with the HE-560.


----------



## MattTCG

jozurr said:


> I confirm this. @Koolpep was kind enough to let me try the H10, and compare it to the Magni2U. We also tried multiple DACs with the H10. There was a noticeable difference between the Modi, Modi 2U and the X5 used as a DAC and the DACmini CX while using the Gustard H10, even though the DACmini and the Modi have the same chip. The DACMini with the H10 had better slam and the bass notes hit harder whereas the with the modi they more flabbier. I'm pretty positive of what I heard as I went blind back and forth a few times.
> 
> The question now is, which DAC would give similar results to the DACMini while not emptying the bank? Are any of the H10 owners using the H10 with different DACs and would like to post some comparisons? Maybe if someone has the H10 and Modi and another DAC, it would be interesting to confirm what I heard.
> 
> ...


 
 What kind of budget are you talking about for the dac?


----------



## Koolpep

olek said:


> Yes.
> 
> I own HD650 and DT880 (younger sibling of your T1 - wishful thinking on my part, I know), Crack (with Speedball currently installed but it was not that way always), and H10.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hi!
  
 100% agree with the above.
  
 I have the BH Crack with SB as well - HD650 and T90 (currently have a T1 on loan from a friend) sound like liquid gold being poured into your ears....(borrowed from Tyll)
  
 However, planars indeed suck big time on the Crack, no dice, it sounds horrible. 
  
 Funny enough the H10 can handle them both, while not reaching the excitement of the Crack with the HD650/T90/T1 it does drive them very well. I was particularly stunned with the T1 - yes, the bass could have a smidgen more impact but overall well rounded sound.
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## bavinck

A little OT, but here goes anyway:

If you have the HE500/H10 combo check out Snarky Puppy - Sylva. Prog rock meets jazz meets, lots of other stuff.


----------



## Jozurr

matttcg said:


> What kind of budget are you talking about for the dac?


 
 I'm looking at DACs closer to $200-$250 which replicate the same kind of performance.


----------



## GioF71

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:
> 
> - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
> - Which headphones are you using with H10?
> ...


 
  
 - More consistent looks between H10 and X12. For example the H10 has power led, X12 doesn't. And the power switches are not aligned
 - Sennheiser HD650
 - Gustard X12
 - Don't know for direct experience but I like my Sennheiser HD650 on my amp
 - Don't know
 - Yes, good value
 - Europe, not through ebay
 - In europe we are used to two years. Hope I do not need to make use of the warranty though


----------



## networkn

Thanks for the advice re H10 and Crack/T1. I will definitely get that speedball upgrade in there hopefully next weekend!
  
 I am still tempted by the H10 somewhat, the reason being that the Crack Amp isn't really "convenient". I can't really move it around without fear of it breaking, and the H10 would give me flexibility to try some different brands of HP's for the future, but I wonder if I just wait till I actually buy different headphones (probably not for 6-12 months). I had my eye on the 570's or the HD800's or the LCD series for a while.


----------



## floydfan33

ansi said:


> H10 owners ahoy! Gustard has asked me to ask a favor from you all regarding H10. They will appreciate it greatly if you can give your thoughts on the following:


 
 - What would you want improved or changed in sound/build/connections?
                      A more substantial power button and a balanced out (4 pin).
 - Which headphones are you using with H10?
                      Sennheiser HD800 and Fostex TH900
 - What DAC are you using with H10?
                       iFi iDSD Micro
 - Which headphones do you think match well with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
                       HD800 is driven well at +6 and seem smoother with the H10 IMO
 - Which headphones do you think match poorly with H10 (please note if its your own opinion from listening)?
                       TH900 does not seem to be improved by the H10 vs headphone out of iDSD Micro
 - Do you think H10 is good value? How much did you pay for yours?
                       $351 USD
 - Where did you purchase your H10?
                        ebay seller Vintage Audio
 - Did you know your H10 has 1-year warranty regardless of where you bought it? Do you think 1-year warranty is enough?
                        1 year is fine


----------



## olek

jozurr said:


> There was a noticeable difference between the Modi, Modi 2U and the X5 used as a DAC and the DACmini CX while using the Gustard H10, even though the DACmini and the Modi have the same chip. The DACMini with the H10 had better slam and the bass notes hit harder whereas the with the modi they more flabbier. I'm pretty positive of what I heard as I went blind back and forth a few times.
> 
> The question now is, which DAC would give similar results to the DACMini while not emptying the bank? Are any of the H10 owners using the H10 with different DACs and would like to post some comparisons? Maybe if someone has the H10 and Modi and another DAC, it would be interesting to confirm what I heard.
> 
> With anyone using multiple DACs with the H10, what kind of differences do you guys hear, if any?


 
  
  
 You are making me drool. I joined drop on DacMini 2 months ago, still waiting for it to be delivered (one of those drops from hell - I also have heard that CEntrance response time for repair requests is about the same). Cant... wait... any... longer... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Therefore, I hope that in couple weeks I should be able to tell you how DacMini compares to original Bifrost (my current DAC of choice).
  
 Now, here is how my current DACs stacked up couple months ago when I actively compared them over the course of a week or 2 using H10 and HD650.
  
 Other than Bifrost I have couple dacs of lower grade: good old MusicStreamer II, Audioengine D1, original Modi, and Focusrite Scarlett 2i4.
  
 Bifrost - good low-end extension, good texture, good lead-ins on piano notes. My best DAC so far, so I can't really pick problems with its sound.
  
 MusicStreamer II is fairly good budget choice, has smooth 'analogue' / warm sound with rounded highs - its sound is slightly reminiscent of tubes. Lacks low end extension a bit. Overall very similar in sound to H10's own signature. Not that much texture in low end, but nothing bad, really, just ... too safe of a sound?
  
 Original Modi - same great extension in low-end as Bifrost, but texture is pretty much missing, resulting in smooth, 'liquid' sound. Overall in compares to Bifrost as H10 to Crack - with bigger gap - similar traits, but less detail. Piano notes lead-in is noticeably softer than with Bifrost, makes you forget that piano is a percussion instrument after all.
  
 Audioengine D1. Has volume control and headphone amp built in. That is all for pros  Low-end extension is VERY limited, and overall dynamics are low, resulting in fairly boring sound. I think it was designed as a part of system to be paired with tiny active desktop speakers, that can't possibly do low bass well, and can't reproduce good dynamics, so designer decided to make DAC produce sound that can be reproduced best by that limited system.
  
 Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 - actually pretty good all around, has some texture, some low-end extension, neutral (not soft, not harsh, kinda dry) treble. Does not beat Bifrost, but is good solid DAC for the price, and you get ADC thrown in as well! Headphone amp is worthless of course. Overall - very neutral all around, a little dry/boring the way pro gear tends to be. Only one bad thing about it (and reason I do not use it much) - it got worst computer noise rejection circuits of the bunch. In other words, you can hear all the mouse movements etc. Likely to benefit a lot from usb conditioner like Wyrd. Oh, second worst in dealing with computer noise is Audioengine D1 (not ridiculous like 2i4, but very noisy), then goes Modi (much better, but still there), and MusicStreamer II and Bifrost are by far the cleanest. And Linux driver support is not the best - it works, but with some problems preventing use of bit-perfect setup.
  
 I use Bifrost in my main rig, and MusicStreamer II in my secondary rig. Curious myself how different DacMini is going to be, especially given that it uses same chip as Modi. I am counting on the opinion that implementation matters more than chip choice, and I have heard a lot of good things about that implementation.
  
 Really, if you are looking for inexpensive but performing DAC around $200-$300, I would recommend picking up used Bifrost, it is not that far from your price range, and is likely one of the better choices (as far as SQ goes).


----------



## Walderstorn

Wish i could try CEntrance DACmini CX, but its 2 much for me, so ill keep using my v90 as a DAC, i havent compared with bitfrost, but i did with modi 2u and its better, but i know its not up to par with better gear, oh well...


----------



## xevman

noodlz said:


> @Liu Junyuan wow that sounds amazing. I'll have to try an hd 650 / crack+SB sometime. what kind of tubes were you using when comparing the hd650 to the LCD3s? Would you say that the 650s would be close to (or even surpass) the fidelity of the LCD3s when using the H10? I'm super curious now lol


 
 If you all about euphoric sound and what sounds pleasing to the ear then yeah sure. If you are about accuracy and whats better on paper definately not. Its all personal preference at the end of the day.


----------



## Noodlz

xevman said:


> If you all about euphoric sound and what sounds pleasing to the ear then yeah sure. If you are about accuracy and whats better on paper definately not. Its all personal preference at the end of the day.


 
 Ah im absolutely all about what sounds pleasing to the ear. I mean i have neutral Reference / Monitor speaker setups for mixdowns / mastering etc if i ever need to do that but nowadays I spend more time enjoying music rather than making it =P
  
 I'm thinking about picking up a HD 650 (or even a vintage HD540 ref II) first to pair with the H10 / my own tube setup(indeed G2 + phillips 7308), and then getting the bottlehead crack with speedball after. The H10 does amazing things for my LCD2.2 But i kinda want something lighter. Before i get too off topic, @xevman @Liu Junyuan what tube / upgrades setup would you guys recommend on the crack/SB to match with the HD650?
  
 I'm most curious about this because my recent audition of the LCD3s on the H10 is only slightly / marginally better than my LCD 2.2's (and they're both absolutely the most amazing things ive ever heard out of headphones), so when you say that the HD650 can be even more resolving than the LCD3's with the H10s, i'm like "Ok now i must try this" lol


----------



## Jozurr

olek said:


> You are making me drool. I joined drop on DacMini 2 months ago, still waiting for it to be delivered (one of those drops from hell - I also have heard that CEntrance response time for repair requests is about the same). Cant... wait... any... longer...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thank you for the detailed impressions. That's what I was looking for. The biggest difference I noted on the DACmini was the slam and how hard the bass notes hit (lower bass). The overall texture and extension seemed similar to me.
  
 From what I've been reading, the Bifrost is not much of an upgrade over the Modi (not considering input options, upgradeability, looks etc; purely sound based comment). Once your DACMini (hopefully soon) comes in you will be in a situation to post the impressions against the Modi and Bifrost!


----------



## mylica

jozurr said:


> Thank you for the detailed impressions. That's what I was looking for. The biggest difference I noted on the DACmini was the slam and how hard the bass notes hit (lower bass). The overall texture and extension seemed similar to me.
> 
> From what I've been reading, the Bifrost is not much of an upgrade over the Modi (not considering input options, upgradeability, looks etc; purely sound based comment). Once your DACMini (hopefully soon) comes in you will be in a situation to post the impressions against the Modi and Bifrost!


 

 It will be nice to see DACmini vs X12.
  
 I am waiting for X20.


----------



## Jozurr

The Gustard H10 is back on massdrop and is only going to be worth it once it hits $299.99. It's cheaper on ebay till that point and is still going to be more expensive for some after it hits the last price compared to ebay due to high shipping costs for some countries (USD 60+)


----------



## fattycheesebeef

Yeah, the shipping is crazy expensive! ):


----------



## sunneebear

Can't blame Massdrop for that.  Prices pretty high for post office or and other carrier going internationally.  Just shipped a 4.5 lb box to S. Korea and it was $55.


----------



## Dithyrambes

urgh....I am on the wall on wheter to get a dx90 for a portable source or this amp for my he 560's.....How big is the box. I know there are pictures, but still having a hard time grasping the dimensions. I have to travel a lot in the next year going back and forth from Europe to USA. is the only way to change the voltage settings by opening up the amp?


----------



## bavinck

The h10 is not portable. It is a pretty big amp. Better option for you would be a portable source and nice portable amp like the cayin c5 or Fiio e12.


----------



## Koolpep

bavinck said:


> The h10 is not portable. It is a pretty big amp. Better option for you would be a portable source and nice portable amp like the cayin c5 or Fiio e12.


 

 Both portable amps mentioned are very good choices. I prefer the Cayin C5.
  
 And yes +1 the H10 is one of the least portable amps. Hence this thread is in the Headphone Amps (full size) forum...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## genclaymore

koolpep said:


> Both portable amps mentioned are very good choices. I prefer the Cayin C5.
> 
> And yes +1 the H10 is one of the least portable amps. Hence this thread is in the Headphone Amps (full size) forum...
> 
> ...


 

 Yea, its like a large heavy Brick.


----------



## olek

jozurr said:


> From what I've been reading, the Bifrost is not much of an upgrade over the Modi (not considering input options, upgradeability, looks etc; purely sound based comment).


 
 I have heard that is true about second generation with Modi Uber leaping forward. Comparing original Bifrost and original Modi, Bifrost is quite a bit better (in my opinion).
  
 Now, where is that DACMini ???? I am so tired of peeking through my front door hoping to see a package from Massdrop outside... This is getting ridiculous...


----------



## olek

genclaymore said:


> Yea, its like a large heavy Brick.


 
 Yep, I would much rather haul something like DACMini if I have to - it is still not really portable, but it is ... movable 
  
 On the other hand, H10 is definitely more ... ?portable? than Crack.


----------



## kdejonge

Anyone would know how the h10 would react by being fed through the pre out of another amp? I would love to start with just a headphone amp without having to get a new dac too.


----------



## Lohb

kdejonge said:


> Anyone would know how the h10 would react by being fed through the pre out of another amp? I would love to start with just a headphone amp without having to get a new dac too.


 

 It has already been done over on the capella thread...
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/754346/beresford-capella-impressions-discussion-thread


----------



## olek

kdejonge said:


> Anyone would know how the h10 would react by being fed through the pre out of another amp? I would love to start with just a headphone amp without having to get a new dac too.


 

 I am feeding my H10 from the output of NAD 1020 pre-amp, and they do not quarrel at all


----------



## DreamKing

Yeah, it works great.


----------



## ansi

koolpep said:


> ...
> 
> - Did you know your H10 has 1-year warranty regardless of where you bought it? Do you think 1-year warranty is enough?
> No. Also, I assume this is a company warranty. But how am I supposed to contact Gustard? There seems to be no "Gustard" company to reach.
> ...


 
  
 There will be a website and an email address soon.. ish. Meanwhile, if you (or anyone else) needs service or repairs, send me a PM and I'll help out. To be honest even if it's outside the warranty or you don't have a proof of purchase, the guys at Gustard will probably fix your amp if needed.


----------



## snip3r77

liu junyuan said:


> Since I personally was "set on" on the G109P for several months as my SS amp, this verifies what I have heard elsewhere, from Flysweep and others. I am glad I found the H10!




Hi,

Do you have the H10? Can you compare with 339?


----------



## sportteo

finality  after 3 weeks H10 arrived.BUT no light no sound no smell nor any noise .I checked  fuse, cable, voltaz, but it is dead .
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 it was brought  from kidult on line shop.Bad luck ?


----------



## MattTCG

I have no idea who that it. Most have reported good results from ebay/Pollychen. Sorry for your misfortune.


----------



## sportteo

http://www.kidultdiagnostic.com/ the address


----------



## Shmuel

I second Pollychen: received mine in 8 days, just 3 days ago. 
Loving it out of the box, by the way.


----------



## Kozic

sportteo said:


> finality  after 3 weeks H10 arrived.BUT no light no sound no smell nor any noise .I checked  fuse, cable, voltaz, but it is dead . it was brought  from kidult on line shop.Bad luck ?


Are you in the U.S. if so make sure it's set to 120 volt that could be it. I believe post #1986 has pictures of what I'm talking about.
Good luck
PS sorry if voltaz = volts I have no idea.


----------



## sportteo

kozic said:


> Are you in the U.S. if so make sure it's set to 120 volt that could be it. I believe post #1986 has pictures of what I'm talking about.
> Good luck
> PS sorry if voltaz = volts I have no idea.


 

 l am from Greece and we use 230v but as i say i opened it   and the button   was at 230v  -sorry for my poor English !


----------



## Kozic

The other quick thing I would try is a different cord the one that I got was so loose it cut out on me twice before I fond the bad fit I thought I may have to return it.I'm using a old PC cord now.


----------



## BassDigger

sportteo said:


> finality  after 3 weeks H10 arrived.BUT no light no sound no smell nor any noise .I checked  fuse, cable, voltaz, but it is dead .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So, you've checked the voltage (and fuse). As suggested, the other possibility is the cable.
 You can always try the 'wiggle test'; if you get intermittent power it shows that it's a part that's being wiggled. Maybe it's the iec connection. You can maybe use a screwdriver to bend the contacts, so they're a tighter fit. Or open it up, and squeeze the contacts, with a pair of pliers. Just make sure that you've DISCONNECTED the cable from the mains,_* before*_ doing either!!!


----------



## sportteo

I replace the cable with one for pc but nothing at all .....maybe i must call a professional to tell me what the hell is going on and if it is something serious i will sent it back .My  complain is that i have to wait about a  month.


----------



## Kozic

sportteo said:


> I replace the cable with one for pc but nothing at all .....maybe i must call a professional to tell me what the hell is going on and if it is something serious i will sent it back .My  complain is that i have to wait about a  month.


Hate to say it but looks like you got a bad one. At this point I would contact the seller. When I worked selling electronics about 1 in 15 would be defective.
Good luck


----------



## stuartmc

I have yet another reason to love the H10 - *it's Op Amp rolling baby! * 
  
  I have done a lot of little tweaks to my H10 and have held off on changing the opamps because I wanted to become very familiar with the sound of the stock configuration at its best.   I think I have accomplished that, so now its time to play!  The Gustard boys were kind enough to socket both sets of opamps, so changing them out is a breeze.  It isn't quite the same as tube rolling, but darn, it's close and affords me the opportunity to truly customize the H10's sound to my personal preference.  How cool is that!
  
 First up will be changing the single channel opa134's for the AD797's (thanks go to those who have already reported on this one).  Then we will switch out the dual channel NE5532's for the opa2604's.  If I like the flavor of the AD797's, I will then try its dual channel cousin, the AD823 in place of the 2604's.  Word is that the 797 is very detailed and less warm then the stock 134. For that reason, combining it with the 2604, which is a little more warm and forgiving might keep more of the original H10's flavor with a little more detail.  I'm going for the full-on electron microscope look into the soundstage, so I'm thinking that the 797 and 823 combo may deliver the goods.  Fun times! ...I will report my findings to my fellow swabbies..


----------



## sportteo

bassdigger said:


> So, you've checked the voltage (and fuse). As suggested, the other possibility is the cable.
> You can always try the 'wiggle test'; if you get intermittent power it shows that it's a part that's being wiggled. Maybe it's the iec connection. You can maybe use a screwdriver to bend the contacts, so they're a tighter fit. Or open it up, and squeeze the contacts, with a pair of pliers. Just make sure that you've DISCONNECTED the cable from the mains,_* before*_ doing either!!!


 
 i fix the problem it seams that the power cord must be straight ....something with the contacts of the amp i shall squeeze the contacts with a pair of pliers as he says *BassDigger* thanks


----------



## pippen99

stuartmc said:


> I have yet another reason to love the H10 - *it's Op Amp rolling baby! *


 
 Not technically oriented but have read about this with interest.  Considering the extended burn-in we H10 owners had to endure will there be a similar, shorter or no burn-in with these component changes? Will you hear Sq changes immediately?


----------



## DDDamian

pippen99 said:


> Not technically oriented but have read about this with interest.  Considering the extended burn-in we H10 owners had to endure will there be a similar, shorter or no burn-in with these component changes? Will you hear Sq changes immediately?


 
 I would have to think caps would change more over time than IC's, but would also like to hear comments


----------



## stuartmc

pippen99 said:


> Not technically oriented but have read about this with interest.  Considering the extended burn-in we H10 owners had to endure will there be a similar, shorter or no burn-in with these component changes? Will you hear Sq changes immediately?


 
 I received  a batch of opamps today and popped them in.  The answer to hearing SQ  changes immediately is a big YES. These are such small devices that any burn-in changes will occur very quickly.  I have had them in for about five hours now and I don't think there was any appreciable change after the first few hours.  Even that change was barely discernible. So No, the burn-in required is nothing like that required for the whole unit.


----------



## DDDamian

I've had my H-10 for about three days now and demo'd it quite a bit. Have the OPA2604 and AD797AN op-amps in. Feeding from a TEAC UD-501 DSD DAC to a pair of pre-fazor LCD's. A very nice, musical sound indeed, with plenty of texture and punch. Nice amp - for the price quite amazing actually.


----------



## fritobugger

sportteo said:


> i fix the problem it seams that the power cord must be straight ....something with the contacts of the amp i shall squeeze the contacts with a pair of pliers as he says *BassDigger* thanks :atsmile:




Right on! Congratulations!


----------



## BassDigger

sportteo said:


> i fix the problem it seams that the power cord must be straight ....something with the contacts of the amp i shall squeeze the contacts with a pair of pliers as he says *BassDigger* thanks


 
  
 After 172 posts, and a few 'misunderstandings', I've actually helped someone. I've also experienced ill-fitting IEC connectors; the connectors were too tight, in my case.
 Sportteo's problem is solved! Permission to break out the rum? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 EDIT: @sportteo Maybe your problem _is_ the same as mine; are you sure that the iec plug is going _all_ the way into the socket?


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> After 172 posts, and a few 'misunderstandings', I've actually helped someone. I've also experienced ill-fitting IEC connectors; the connectors were too tight, in my case.
> Sportteo's problem is solved! Permission to break out the rum?




Permission granted matey!


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> I have yet another reason to love the H10 - *it's Op Amp rolling baby! *
> 
> I have done a lot of little tweaks to my H10 and have held off on changing the opamps because I wanted to become very familiar with the sound of the stock configuration at its best.   I think I have accomplished that, so now its time to play!  The Gustard boys were kind enough to socket both sets of opamps, so changing them out is a breeze.  It isn't quite the same as tube rolling, but darn, it's close and affords me the opportunity to truly customize the H10's sound to my personal preference.  How cool is that!
> 
> First up will be changing the single channel opa134's for the AD797's (thanks go to those who have already reported on this one).  Then we will switch out the dual channel NE5532's for the opa2604's.  If I like the flavor of the AD797's, I will then try its dual channel cousin, the AD823 in place of the 2604's.  Word is that the 797 is very detailed and less warm then the stock 134. For that reason, combining it with the 2604, which is a little more warm and forgiving might keep more of the original H10's flavor with a little more detail.  I'm going for the full-on electron microscope look into the soundstage, so I'm thinking that the 797 and 823 combo may deliver the goods.  Fun times! ...I will report my findings to my fellow swabbies..


 
 Credit to you, and the others, who've mentioned op-amps!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Op-amps get 'bad press', but apparently there are some good quality items out there, that aren't too far off the performance of a discrete circuit (Hell; you can even get discrete op-amps!!).
  
 It's not to say that I get the impression that Gustard have 'sold anyone short', with their standard items; it seems that they're quite good. But as you say, op-amps are something that you can use to tailor the sound and maybe squeeze that last bit of performance out of an already tidy design. And it only takes a few $ and a few minutes to experiment!
  
 P.S. Now where's that bottle of Lamb's?


----------



## blasjw

dddamian said:


> I've had my H-10 for about three days now and demo'd it quite a bit. Have the OPA2604 and AD797AN op-amps in. Feeding from a TEAC UD-501 DSD DAC to a pair of pre-fazor LCD's. A very nice, musical sound indeed, with plenty of texture and punch. Nice amp - for the price quite amazing actually.


 
 Why not try some OPA627s?


----------



## blasjw

bassdigger said:


> Credit to you, and the others, who've mentioned op-amps!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I hear a lot of good things about OPA627 but, I'm thinking about trying some discrete Dexas & Bursons as well.


----------



## mylica

blasjw said:


> Why not try some OPA627s?


 

 I am thinking to try OPA627.  But this required more voltage.  H10 should be able to handle that.  OPA627 is not cheap compare to ADA797


----------



## MattTCG

I'm actually very happy with the sound of the h10...and yet I'm still following the opamp discussion.


----------



## lukeap69

matttcg said:


> I'm actually very happy with the sound of the h10...and yet I'm still following the opamp discussion.



Matt

How's the H10-Ether pairing?


----------



## MattTCG

lukeap69 said:


> Matt
> 
> How's the H10-Ether pairing?


 
  
 It's good actually. It's been a primary for me with the Ether for the past week. I'd call it great a bang for buck amp. That being said, there is some real ability to scale on the Ether. I had some very expensive amps this week on loan and honestly I do miss them (both were custom built Dynahi and a high end tube amp called Phoenix). 
  
 I have no problem recommending the h10 for those on a budget looking for an amp for Ether.


----------



## lukeap69

Did you try the Ether pair3d with the Lyr 2?


----------



## MattTCG

lukeap69 said:


> Did you try the Ether pair3d with the Lyr 2?


 
 Yes, I also liked this pairing. The Ether loves power and paired well to the 6 watts of the lyr. I rolled some tubes in the lyr and got good results. I could be happy with either amp but the h10 is less expensive with no tube hassles.


----------



## lukeap69

matttcg said:


> Yes, I also liked this pairing. The Ether loves power and paired well to the 6 watts of the lyr. I rolled some tubes in the lyr and got good results. I could be happy with either amp but the h10 is less expensive with no tube hassles.




Very nice. Thanks for sharing Matt.


----------



## blasjw

mylica said:


> I am thinking to try OPA627.  But this required more voltage.  H10 should be able to handle that.  OPA627 is not cheap compare to ADA797


 
 Yes, you're right OPA627s are pretty expensive.


----------



## MattTCG

But the real question is not price but how do they sound


----------



## mylica

matttcg said:


> But the real question is not price but how do they sound


 
  
 Very happy with ADA797 for now.  Maybe next month i will get opa627.  It cost 20 usd here.


----------



## NightFlight

$20? How many are there? Two? Pretty cheap compared to top tier tube rolling. For example, I sold off some of my Lyr tubes to buy a Mainline kit for 1K.
  
 I'm looking a pair of 10uF Mundorf EVO silver / gold / oil caps @ $100ea and who knows how much of an improvement I might garner out of this amp. *shrug*.  But we all have our limits... I just can't justify the supreme's at $277ea.
  
 So $20 is pretty cheap!


----------



## BassDigger

Ok, I wonder if I'm really 'throwing cat amongst pigeons' by causing an information overload (or even if it's about the same type of op-amps)! But here's a link containing some quite extensive op-amp reviews:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/397691/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-opa-earth-opa-moon-opa-sun-v-2
  
 What's of particular interest is how the writer believes that the different grades, of the same op-amp, matter as much as the different models.
  
 EDIT: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Whoops! I read this review some time ago; I forgot that it's for op-amps in a DAC output stage. So, I really don't know if it has any relevance for amplifier op-amp selection.


----------



## natemact

blasjw said:


> Why not try some OPA627s?



Great opamp but may add a little too much warmth to an already cozy amp, but don't let my .02$ stop you..swap away swabbie!

Actually on second thought, teamed up with a couple of very neutral LM4562's it may sound sublime



blasjw said:


> I hear a lot of good things about OPA627 but, I'm thinking about trying some discrete Dexas & Bursons as well.



I also contemplated the discrete Bursons but once again they run on the sunny side of neutral. Tremendous opamps though (quite possibly the best) just be sure the gear they will be used in doesn't mind the added coziness they tag along. A friend of mine who runs a small recording studio in my area absolutely swears by them in the right gear.

FYI Parts Connexion (north of the border) has a 30 day refund policy on their Burson opamps if your interested (nice cuz they're pricey). I'm in no way affiliated with Parts Connexion but can give them a recommendation as I've had nothing but great experiences with them over the years.


----------



## kdejonge

Just ordered the h10 at massdrop. Can't wait to hear it with my he-400i.


----------



## blasjw

natemact said:


> Great opamp but may add a little too much warmth to an already cozy amp, but don't let my .02$ stop you..swap away swabbie!
> 
> Actually on second thought, teamed up with a couple of very neutral LM4562's it may sound sublime
> 
> ...


 
 Great, thanks for the excellent advice!  I happen to have a couple of 4562s on hand in addition to 627s so I will give those a shot as well.  I've been eyeing the Dexa special editions and the Bursons at Parts Connexion already.  I think they're having a sale 'till the end of the month so I'll try to pick them up before then.  Can never have enough opamps on hand.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I'm working on a major overhaul (recapping of the power supply, and analog output stage, and socketing the op-amps as well as all 4 DIP-28 digital chips - should make for some nice digital filter/dac chip/digital receiver rolling as well) of my Adcom GDA-600 and will be doing some op-amp rolling with that as well once I get it fully socketed.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

snip3r77 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Do you have the H10? Can you compare with 339?


 
 Yes, I have both. 
  
 I am not at home atm to make comparisons, but I have had the opportunity to listen to both fairly extensively to form an opinion.
  
 The 339 conveys more weight and heft across the board, from strings to bass, which means it has more slam and wider dynamics.  The H10, while slightly on the warm side of neutral, combines its smooth tonality with a detailed and tight presentation that solid state is renowned for. For most recordings, I prefer the HD 650 out of the 339 and the HD 800 out of the H10 (at least, so far). The HE-500 does well, surprisingly, on both and for different reasons. The 339 gives them a more 3D and holographic presentation that works very well for acoustics, whereas the H10 drives them with the tightest of authority on electronic music. 
  
 Please note that I am forced to nitpick here. The HD 650s sounds fantastic on the H10 too, and the HD 800 kills on the 339 during intimate, chamber music, lounge-like recordings. Moreover, I am well aware that my experience is quite limited with the HD 800 and other amps as I am sure others in the same price range would surpass both amps (Valhalla 2 comes to mind as a "budget" solution that I hope to try with the HD 800s soonish). It just really depends on what you are going for. Also, the H 10 has plenty of slam and dynamics, but just as not as much as 339, which hits extremely hard. The H10 is also less punchy and aggressive than the Lyr, which I also owned for a couple years. With the 339, I am constantly involved in the music, whereas the H10 allows me to step back and relax a bit, which is why both get about equal "head-time" from my thus far.
  
 My apologies for the cursory response here, but I hope this helps make you get a general idea. Basically, what comes through on this thread is that the H10 makes for a magnificent pairing with planars and does high impedance headphones very well, especially for its price-point. I fully endorse this conclusion; Gustard has made an outstanding amplifier available at an affordable price that can drive most headphones, especially planars and AKGs, with tremendous authority. The 339 is made for a different purpose, I think, and it is really a quintessential OTL tube amp that is built like a tank, and is meticulously and cleanly executed, especially for ITS price-point, thriving especially with  high impedance dynamic drivers such as the HD 650/600 and Beyers. 
  
 Best wishes!


----------



## moriez

natemact said:


> I have a pair of AD797AN's pinch hitting for the OPA134PA's and I couldn't be happier. There was a noticeable veil lifted IMHO. Haven't been bothered to replace the NE5535's yet as it just sounds sooo good with the 797's in'er. Some day I'll try a pair of LM4562NA's back there though, or maybe OPA2604AP's if the 4562's don't work well in the circuit.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 So a little opamp rolling interest me as it's such a simple and relatively cheap thing to do. Plus it has given me good results in the past. When I first heard the H10 I thought it was really nice but could do with just a liiiiittle more air/top emphasis. You swapped the two 123PA's for 797AN's only right? Still happy with that or made another ''jump'' in performance with new combinations?


----------



## icebrain1

Finally pulled the trigger on the H10, found it over on Massdrop, it's gonna take quite a while to ship though.
 Thanks for the advice everyone.
  
 Op-amp swabbing seems pretty interesting I'll be looking into it after the H10 arrives.
  
 Good listening.


----------



## natemact

moriez said:


> Hi,
> 
> So a little opamp rolling interest me as it's such a simple and relatively cheap thing to do. Plus it has given me good results in the past. When I first heard the H10 I thought it was really nice but could do with just a liiiiittle more air/top emphasis. You swapped the two 123PA's for 797AN's only right? Still happy with that or made another ''jump'' in performance with new combinations?



Yep, still happy with the 797 & 5532 combination


----------



## moriez

Cool. Will pick up a pair. Looking forward.


----------



## mmlogic

One thing I like about H10 is I don't have to roll tubes, but now...


----------



## genclaymore

instead you swap op-amps . yea tubes was bleeding me dry when i had a tube amp.


----------



## stuartmc

I can second the motion on the 797's replacing the stock 123PA's. It's not a huge change, but definitely moves the sound pendulum from the slightly warm side to the more neutral zone. Also a little more clarity and dynamic punch. I think the "punch" manifests in the leading edge attacks, plucked strings, cymbal crashes, the sort of things with upper treble energy. It does sound very nice with just the 797's paired with the stock 5532's. But.....

Even more tuning fun can be had when you swap out those 5532's for a more hotrodded high speed variety. We are somewhat limited in 8pin DIP's that will work well in this application and are reasonably affordable. The Muses02 I would not include in the short list because a pair of them with shipping will run me about $100. A little reading helped me narrow it down to two worthy contenders - the opa2604 and the AD823ANZ. The word on the street is that the 2604 is the more warm and forgiving one and the 823 is the detailed, dynamic one. My own experience this week corroborated this.


----------



## blasjw

mmlogic said:


> One thing I like about H10 is I don't have to roll tubes, but now...


 
 Yes, there is no escape, it never ends.  I found there are even differences between different op-amp packages like TO-99, SOIC, & PDIP.  OCD stop now.


----------



## stuartmc

The 797, 2604 combination retains more of the original H10's character. The added detail and drive of the 797 comes through nearly the same as it does with the stock 5532's- Perhaps with just a little more clarity. It's pretty subtle and without the benefit of direct a/b testing I take my own findings with the appropriately sized grain of salt.

The 823 was a different story. This one I could hear more plainly. Hard to say whether it is passing the 797's sound with less filter, or adding its own mojo on top of it. Either way, it's the sound I have been looking for. If you were wishing that your H10 was just a little less warm, had a smidge more upper treble energy, more fine detail and a little more imaging, than the 797/823 combo is it. Maybe Analog Devices has a house sound, our maybe these opamps were designed to be synergistic together. Whatever it is, they sound wonderful in the H10...and that's MY kind of wonderful. You guys can have fun finding your own flavor.


----------



## stuartmc

Depending on all the associated gear, interconnects, power conditioning, etc, etc...I can imagine that some would think the 797/823 combo was a little too much. Perhaps hyper detailed, even, gasp, "analytical". The stock H10 isn't that at all and these changes are certainly not night and day, so the only way I can see someone not liking it is if they already find the H10 too resolving to enjoy listening to poorly recorded music. Have no fear. You might even be able to find a combination that makes the H10 more warm and forgiving.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

icebrain1 said:


> Finally pulled the trigger on the H10, found it over on Massdrop, it's gonna take quite a while to ship though.
> Thanks for the advice everyone.
> 
> Op-amp swabbing seems pretty interesting I'll be looking into it after the H10 arrives.
> ...




Grats!


----------



## stuartmc

"Op-amp *swabbing* seems pretty interesting I'll be looking into it after the H10 arrives."

That was probably unintentional, but I'm stealing it as legitimate bounty for me and the rest of the Gustard swabbies. Henceforth, while a crew member (swabbie) of good standing, you shall refer to these endeavors as *"swabbing op-amps"*.

So let's swab the decks already!


----------



## icebrain1

liu junyuan said:


> Grats!







stuartmc said:


> "Op-amp *swabbing* seems pretty interesting I'll be looking into it after the H10 arrives."
> 
> That was probably unintentional, but I'm stealing it as legitimate bounty for me and the rest of the Gustard swabbies. Henceforth, while a crew member (swabbie) of good standing, you shall refer to these endeavors as *"swabbing op-amps"*.
> 
> So let's swab the decks already!




Thanks, hehe ya that was unintentional. But it does sound pretty interesting.


----------



## Gibalok

Did anybody compare H10 to Wa6Se? Whether wa6se is more powerful and punchy to my He560?


----------



## Noodlz

Hey guys. dunno if this would help anyone, but i had previously stated that on the H10, the LCD3 fazor is only marginally better than the LCD 2.2 Classics i have. Well that was when i was using a Wyred 4 Sound µDAC HD / Geekout 450 with MIT cable RCAs. I've now upgraded my DAC & interconnect and the difference is staggering. The 3F's with a proper system is significantly better than the 2.2C (though it still doesn't have the warmth and sub bass like the 2.2, it has much more clarity and detail and soundstage).
  
*Main point: *H10 with XLR's (especially good cables) are amazing with the LCD series. If you have a 2.2 it makes it nice with the RCA, amazing with the XLR. With the 3F's you really need a good XLR cable to push it to its full potential. With a RCA you're hearing like 50% of what they're supposed to sound like. (my and a few of my friend's opinions)
  
*Details:*
  
 First thing, I highly recommend the usage of the XLR balanced of the H10 instead of the RCA as it makes a huge difference. I'm now using a Yulong D200. When i switched the the XLR there is immediate improvement across the board (lower noisefloor, clarity, resolution, soundstage) for the LCD2.2. LCD3, LCD XC. the improvement is not limited to just the planars either, my AKG K550 and Kennerton Magisters were way better sounding as well. 
  
 Second, i understand that some people for doubt the changes cables make (for whatever reason), but i started with canare quad star XLRs and switched to Morrow Audio MA-3 XLR's (fresh no burn in), and the difference is night and day. It was as if i completely upgraded my system. (a few people i had blind test thought this as well, see below)
  
 To make sure it's not just that i had a new toy syndrome / heavy bias, i had a couple friends do a blind test. In particular i had non-audiophile friends listen to it and give me feedback. What was stated across the board is that going from (MIT cables) RCA to (canare quad star) XLR makes the system sound completely different (one said: "its louder, clearer, sharper, richer" and that "you don't even need to ask, its so far apart"). Then when switching from the Canare XLR to Morrow (MA3 XLR), it yet again made a big difference, and i quote from the non-audiophile "it's like going from sd to HD", also "going from flat 2D to holographic 3D"
  
 Note, with the XLR upgrade before using the morrow cables, the difference between the LCD 2.2 and 3F was still marginal, but after the cable it became staggering. Though some prefered the richness and top roll off of the 2.2 and still liked it better than the 3's b/c they thought for some songs the 3's were too sharp and sibilant. All thought that the LCD3F's were technically superior in terms of clarity soundstage & details though. 
  
 I'm sure you guys with the X12 using the XLR outs are already experiencing the benefits, but for anyone that isn't using it i'd highly recommend the upgrade to XLRs, especially getting a set of nice cables like the Morrow audio stuff.


----------



## stuartmc

> I'm sure you guys with the X12 using the XLR outs are already experiencing the benefits, but for anyone that isn't using it i'd highly recommend the upgrade to XLRs, especially getting a set of nice cables like the Morrow audio stuff.




Yes, my ears agree. I'm running Analysis-Plus Silver Oval In XLR's between my X12 and my H10. Way better than the rca's and in my opinion one of the finest XLR cables made. The only problem is that they now go for $875 for a one meter pair. I was lucky enough to have a bought a review pair a number of years ago for way less than that. Otherwise, I couldn't justify the price with affordable gear like the Gustard...but oh boy, they sure make me a believer of what great interconnects can do, or should I say, not do. They are almost completely transparent -the perfect nothing interconnect. They sure do make listening to the differences in my other tweaks a lot easier.


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> Spoiler: text
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's nice to hear that you're happy, and the H10 is still impressing you.
  
 I'll try not to discuss cables (it's too much of a _hot_ topic), but I'm surprised to hear that you're finding such a difference with just the change from RCA to balanced cable and then the balanced cable upgrade; this suggests to me that there may be more to this story; perhaps regarding your dacs outputs, or the H10 inputs.
  
 Anyway, my main reason for posting: I recall your previous comment; I replied to it. You couldn't hear much difference between the lcd2 and lcd3f.
 I wondered, at the time, if it may be that there was a weakness in your system, that meant that there wasn't much extra resolution available for the 3Fs to reveal. After all, the lcd3 is a good $2000 headphone; they need to be fed with a good quality signal to do their stuff; they can't reproduce what isn't there. But I'm unfamiliar with your source. 
  
 I've always been a 'transducer first' (rather than source), kind of guy; after all, it's the transducer that actually makes the sound that you hear.
 I'm not 'pointing fingers'; I think that there're some much more extreme examples, but I've noticed that a great many head-fiers are using some seriously revealing (and expensive) headphones, with some very 'questionable' sources; they perhaps take it too far, and are (likely) not getting the best sound for pound value, because of this mis-match!
  
 Thank goodness for companies like Gustard, for making affordable products, that help even out the balance.
  
 P.S. I'm still writing 'wishful' thoughts; I haven't got my H10......yet!


----------



## jazzwave

Gustard H10 arrived with one plug pin power cable  broke...
  
  
  
  
 Anyway, do I have to set up the voltage? My house voltage is  230V
  
 Note: I didn't see voltage switch in back panel


----------



## Noodlz

@jazzwave I had to open mine up to switch the voltages inside the unit. (i'm in the US where we use 110, but it was set to 220). Hope that helps
  
@stuartmc wow those must sound fantastic. I have to say i wasn't too sure on how much the differences of the XLR cables would make. I got the Canare's i know from my days in the music buiz that a lot of the live gigs use canare's, and recording studios / mastering houses use mogami's, so i figured that would be plenty good already. But then upon listening to the morrow cables there was no denying the improvements.
  
@BassDigger yeah i totally agree with you, the sourcing / interconnects / signal chain all kinda play a part in the quality of the sound. It's just really hard to tell what is exactly the weakest part of the chain, or rather, whether or not you're hearing the optimal quality that your system is supposed to be delivering. Which in a sense is all very scary to our wallets as we become curious... lol.
  
 At some point though i'd like to feel like the system is "good enough", especially when it comes to the "bang for buck", essentially before the point of the massive diminishing return of cost to quality. I might actually still stick to the 2.2s' for a while simply because for what i pay for it provides great value. The 3's, though fantastic, i can't quite bring myself to spend 2K on a pair of headphones right now that are i'd say, 20-30% better only in fidelity but 10% worse in sub bass & timbre. 
  
 On that note the gustard H10 is a massively amazing bang for buck. for $350 i feel like it is by far the best audio investment i've ever made. I'm still on the fences about upgrading to an X20 when its out, but considering that i got the D200 through the trade and it already sounds great with this pairing, i may not need to make the upgrade just yet. (That and also its huge size, im not sure i have the space for it)
  
 ...All that being said though, i'm listening to the LCD3F's right now through my system and it sounds goooorgeous. Really sad to have to return it tomorrow. So who knows, maybe i'll sell off a whole bunch of stuff and buy myself the LCD3F's. Damn this hobby seriously dangerous for the wallet lol


----------



## fritobugger

This op amp changing thing sounds interesting.  I would like to get slightly more brightness and treble from it.


----------



## moriez

For anyone who's wondering about the difference between 797AN and 797ANZ and which to get. The legs of the ANZ are lead-free. A retailer told me that should be the only difference.


----------



## DDDamian

moriez said:


> For anyone who's wondering about the difference between 797AN and 797ANZ and which to get. The legs of the ANZ are lead-free. A retailer told me that should be the only difference.




Dangerous news! Some will infer that lead-free legs will make it faster and less heavy-sounding!


----------



## 406382

Another crew member on board! Ordered mine from pollychen this afternoon. Have an HE-500, H10 and Canare cable underway. Let's hope they arrive around the same time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. I'm buying this combo blind, which frankly is a large step for me. I always audition every piece of audio gear before buying, but there's simply no one selling in this tiny country...
  
 This combo will compete against my Senn RS220 and Schiity HD600, which shouldn't be too hard to beat (I found the Magni does not do an HD600 justice, perhaps a Bottlehead would up the challenge). Apparently the HD600 scales limitless, but since I lack budget for a $2000 amp, this Hifiman / Gustard combo makes more sense. Plus I REALLY want to experience the difference between dynamics and ortho's


----------



## DDDamian

mark235 said:


> Another crew member on board! Ordered mine from pollychen this afternoon. Have an HE-500, H10 and Canare cable underway. Let's hope they arrive around the same time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 They are different beasts. Check my sig for what I've got, but a Crack/600/650 pairing and a Gustard/planar pairing are all you need. Both have their pro's and con's, and you'll have the best of both worlds. Enjoy it - I think you'll be a happy camper with either route!


----------



## stuartmc

mark235 said:


> Another crew member on board! Ordered mine from pollychen this afternoon. Have an HE-500, H10 and Canare cable underway. Let's hope they arrive around the same time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Welcome aboard. Although I have not heard the HE-500 with the H10, my experience with the 400i and now the 560's makes me confident that you will not be disappointed.


----------



## 406382

dddamian said:


> They are different beasts. Check my sig for what I've got, but a Crack/600/650 pairing and a Gustard/planar pairing are all you need. Both have their pro's and con's, and you'll have the best of both worlds. Enjoy it - I think you'll be a happy camper with either route!


 
  
 Yeah, I gathered as much from the earlier reviews and descriptions in this thread. I can see myself owning 2 complementary endgame combo's in due time, once I gather some more funds. I will have to sell the HD600 soon to regain some of that, but I can see it returning again in due time. Or maybe an HD650 for a little more warmth.
  
 I should really also sell the RS220, but the ease of use has gotten to me. No cables, no hassle... it's great for projector watching in the evening, and borrowing headphones to the kids. and the SQ is pretty decent considering it's a wireless. Others have compared it to the HD600/HD650. I think it's a lot more like the HD650 than the HD600. That and it's a different league. As in downward. Not a massive step, but it's definitely there. Even when the HD650 is used on an iPad


----------



## 406382

stuartmc said:


> Welcome aboard. Although I have not heard the HE-500 with the H10, my experience with the 400i and now the 560's makes me confident that you will not be disappointed.


 
  
 Thanks! the H10's praise is wide, and shared among several forum members who's descriptions and experiences with gear match my own to a large degree. That was enough to bring me on. And if I'm disappointed, I can always hold the cap'n accountable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







. That, or start a mutiny (I am, after all, 25% Cornishman. You have been warned 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 In seriousness, I doubt this will be the case, unless my expectations of the gap between mid-end and high-end can's are too high. Then I will have learned a somewhat costly lesson, but that is not the end of the world...


----------



## DDDamian

stuartmc said:


> Welcome aboard. Although I have not heard the HE-500 with the H10, my experience with the 400i and now the 560's makes me confident that you will not be disappointed.


 
 Canuckistan lol. Hey neighbour  And yep, it's a great amp for planars


----------



## stuartmc

dddamian said:


> Canuckistan lol. Hey neighbour  And yep, it's a great amp for planars


 
 So, you live in the great People's Republic of Canuckistan...ha ha. I'm just across the Thousand Islands Bridge a short distance from Kingston.
 I have some audiophile pals from Ottawa that used to come and visit my listening room now and again.


----------



## lukeap69

mark235 said:


> Thanks! the H10's praise is wide, and shared among several forum members who's descriptions and experiences with gear match my own to a large degree. That was enough to bring me on. And if I'm disappointed, I can always hold the cap'n accountable   . That, or start a mutiny (I am, after all, 25% Cornishman. You have been warned  )
> 
> In seriousness, I doubt this will be the case, unless my expectations of the gap between mid-end and high-end can's are too high. Then I will have learned a somewhat costly lesson, but that is not the end of the world...



Just don't forget who led you to this amp and thread.


----------



## DDDamian

stuartmc said:


> So, you live in the great People's Republic of Canuckistan...ha ha. I'm just across the Thousand Islands Bridge a short distance from Kingston.
> I have some audiophile pals from Ottawa that used to come and visit my listening room now and again.


 
 Very cool - I'm 40min west of Kingston. Great drive along the 1000 Islands Parkway if you ever cross the border into the Frozen Land of Canuckistan lol - free skis and fur mittens for all Yanks during July! )


----------



## blasjw

jazzwave said:


> Gustard H10 arrived with one plug pin power cable  broke...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you're talking about the pin on the power cable that came with the amp, don't worry about it.  Do yourself a favor and buy a better one.  The one that came with it is quite possibly the cheapest one I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of power cables.  Good thing the cable is no indication of the build quality of the amp itself which is very very beefy.


----------



## fritobugger

I am quite happy with the H10 / HE-500 pairing.


----------



## fritobugger

mark235 said:


> Another crew member on board! Ordered mine from pollychen this afternoon. Have an HE-500, H10 and Canare cable underway. Let's hope they arrive around the same time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Remember the reaction when Bruce the shark caught scent of Dory's blood in the water? HE-500 and H10 are like that.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

So, what's the best or recommended setup for X12 and H10? 
  
 USB to X12 to XLR out to H10?


----------



## stuartmc

fattycheesebeef said:


> So, what's the best or recommended setup for X12 and H10?
> 
> USB to X12 to XLR out to H10?




A high quality usb-DDC to the X12 via I2S (HDMI), then X12 to H10 via XLR. This set-up gets the very best sound for me. The USB board built into the X12 isn't bad, but you can definitely do better. The Gustard U12 is better in the opinion of the Gustard engineers and I think they may be right. I have the Tanly Audio USB-DDC and it's much like the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB for a lot less money. It's better than my U12 in every way.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

mark235 said:


> Yeah, I gathered as much from the earlier reviews and descriptions in this thread. I can see myself owning 2 complementary endgame combo's in due time, once I gather some more funds. I will have to sell the HD600 soon to regain some of that, but I can see it returning again in due time. Or maybe an HD650 for a little more warmth.
> 
> I should really also sell the RS220, but the ease of use has gotten to me. No cables, no hassle... it's great for projector watching in the evening, and borrowing headphones to the kids. and the SQ is pretty decent considering it's a wireless. Others have compared it to the HD600/HD650. I think it's a lot more like the HD650 than the HD600. That and it's a different league. As in downward. Not a massive step, but it's definitely there. Even when the HD650 is used on an iPad




I personally would be very careful about selling the Sennheisers. You might regret it. However, with the recent price-drops, I suppose you could buy a new one again once you realize your mistake


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Noodlz

Congrats on your recent discoveries using the LCD-3s with new interconnects. I would be interested in hearing how these two pair with one another. You may have just as well unleashed more potential from the D200 as you have the H10.


----------



## jazzwave

I run H10 for 4 hours, the sound still "stiff" not flowing...
  
 Dell(Foobar)->NFB3->H10->HD600
  
 I checked by listen through HD600 every 1 hour cycle. I noticed this amp able to drive 300ohm cans without issue, the sound has body.
  
  
 ~ron~


----------



## Liu Junyuan

jazzwave said:


> I run H10 for 4 hours, the sound still "stiff" not flowing...
> 
> Dell(Foobar)->NFB3->H10->HD600
> 
> ...




Just dont hang yourself by the power cord. H10 sounds bad for days 2 and 3. Day 4 is when it opened up for me.


----------



## LancerFIN

Has anyone compared H10 or X12 to mid-high end Audio-gd stuff? NFB-28 or higher. i absolutely loved the preamp function in my NFB-15 but my PC speakers didn't really get used after I bought LCD-2's. Planning on getting new monitors soon so proper preamp function would be nice.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lancerfin said:


> Has anyone compared H10 or X12 to mid-high end Audio-gd stuff? NFB-28 or higher. i absolutely loved the preamp function in my NFB-15 but my PC speakers didn't really get used after I bought LCD-2's. Planning on getting new monitors soon so proper preamp function would be nice.




Unfortunately, no. I have been asking for this for a long time. For instance, how would the Gustard stack sound against the NFB-28/29?


----------



## 406382

fritobugger said:


> Remember the reaction when Bruce the shark caught scent of Dory's blood in the water? HE-500 and H10 are like that.


 
  
 Oww.... that's good.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWRIR39N8WA


----------



## 406382

lukeap69 said:


> Just don't forget who led you to this amp and thread.


 
  
 I certainly shall not. Thank you for leading me to it


----------



## 406382

liu junyuan said:


> I personally would be very careful about selling the Sennheisers. You might regret it. However, with the recent price-drops, I suppose you could buy a new one again once you realize your mistake


 
  
 It's not that I want to get rid of them, but I need the funds. The HE-500 / H10 combo is setting me back a fair bit. HD600 sounds better than the RS220, but I'm don't want to live without wireless anymore.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

mark235 said:


> It's not that I want to get rid of them, but I need the funds. The HE-500 / H10 combo is setting me back a fair bit. HD600 sounds better than the RS220, but I'm don't want to live without wireless anymore.




I get it, totally. I have too many headphones and need to sell one. I just have no clue which. It might have to be the HE-500 since I would never sell the Senn. That will be really hard, though. So we are speaking according to the same principle but completely opposite priorities. You need to sell the Senn to keep the HE-500, and I am considering to the exact contrary to this. First-world problem


----------



## Noodlz

liu junyuan said:


> @Noodlz
> 
> Congrats on your recent discoveries using the LCD-3s with new interconnects. I would be interested in hearing how these two pair with one another. You may have just as well unleashed more potential from the D200 as you have the H10.


 
@Liu Junyuan Thanks =) I'm currently burning in the XLR cables with my D200 / H10 pairing. So far so good! It's really sad that i had to drop the LCD-3F's back to the post office to return it~ (I had done the Cable Company Headphone Library Rental program thing, so had it for about a week). Had been listening to it the night prior and man it was getting better and better.
  
 The LCD3F + D200 + H10 with the Morrow Audio XLRs at around 30 hour burn in sounded fantastic and better than my LCD 2.2's significantly. Initially the vocals sounded slightly thinner but then as time went on it became more and more solid. By the time i had to return it, the sound was very holographic, and really felt like the headphones kinda disappeared and i'm just hearing the sound and music flowing around, something that my LCD 2.2s(as great as they sound) don't do. since the soundstage is much smaller and much less articulate comparatively. Really want to go and buy myself a pair of LCD3's now but i've got to handle a few things before i can free up funds for it. I might just have to put up some massive sales for all my other gear sometime to gather funds for it lol.
  
 Oh on a side note @Liu Junyuan You mentioned that the HD650s sound really good on the H10 as well, but even better with the crack, with it being even more resolving than the LCD3's? Im very very curious now. In your opinion should i be getting a pair for my current setup? I'm wondering how it stacks against my 2.2's, considering it's much lighter, if the performance is close maybe i'll listen to them during the day when i work instead. (Either that or save up even more $$ and get an alpha prime later, which im assuming should pair up very well with the H10 since its a planar. Plus its a closed back and light, so it should be great for a daytime work headphone)


----------



## Liu Junyuan

noodlz said:


> @Liu Junyuan
> Thanks =) I'm currently burning in the XLR cables with my D200 / H10 pairing. So far so good! It's really sad that i had to drop the LCD-3F's back to the post office to return it~ (I had done the Cable Company Headphone Library Rental program thing, so had it for about a week). Had been listening to it the night prior and man it was getting better and better.
> 
> The LCD3F + D200 + H10 with the Morrow Audio XLRs at around 30 hour burn in sounded fantastic and better than my LCD 2.2's significantly. Initially the vocals sounded slightly thinner but then as time went on it became more and more solid. By the time i had to return it, the sound was very holographic, and really felt like the headphones kinda disappeared and i'm just hearing the sound and music flowing around, something that my LCD 2.2s(as great as they sound) don't do. since the soundstage is much smaller and much less articulate comparatively. Really want to go and buy myself a pair of LCD3's now but i've got to handle a few things before i can free up funds for it. I might just have to put up some massive sales for all my other gear sometime to gather funds for it lol.
> ...




Yes, but more resolving was a key term. I am not claiming it has lusher mids (which Audeze does very well indeed), deeper or extended bass (another Audeze strength), and so on. But I do think it resolves better than the LCD-3 in terms of micro dynamics and low-level detail, on condition that it is driven by a proper amp, preferably using tubes. I did not intend to disparage the LCD-3, so I apologize if it came across this way. From the brief time I listened to it (out of the BHA-1), I liked it.


----------



## Noodlz

Ah~ no worries =) I was just thinking like "Omg the hd650 can be even better than this when properly driven? I must have it." LoL~ this hobby is so dangerous to the wallet... Ok i think maybe i'll take it easy for now and just save up for the LCD3 as my next big purchase =) Though i may still aquire a few things here and there before getting it. (Getting another pair of custom sennGrados made currently) Also considering picking up a HD 540 Ref II as i hear its great. more about curiousity than anything else =P


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> Ah~ no worries =) I was just thinking like "Omg the hd650 can be even better than this when properly driven? I must have it." LoL~ this hobby is so dangerous to the wallet... Ok i think maybe i'll take it easy for now and just* save up for the LCD3 as my next big purchase* =) Though* i may still aquire a few things here and there before getting it*. (Getting another pair of custom sennGrados made currently) Also considering picking up a HD 540 Ref II as i hear its great. *more about curiousity than anything else* =P


 
  
 Just a thought, that continues our previous OT discussion: Have you heard the LCD2 Fazors?
 Unfortunately, I can't make any comparisons to other Audeze phones, but maybe it's something that you could try; with owning the pre-fazor model, and just having heard the Fazored lcd3.
  
 Much of what you describe about the lcd3f, reminds me of what I hear with the lcd2f: yes, they lack some ultimate deep bass ooomph, but there's enough 'body' to the sound, most of the time, and they sound just soooo realistic; they have a real presence factor, which sometimes has me looking around the room, wondering what's occurring! Does the lcd 2.2 ever do this?
  
 I don't want to 'twist your arm'; it's your money, time and life. And I know that we both have had concerns about the direction that Audeze has taken. But I guess that they must be making overall improvements. And at less than half the price of the lcd3f, the lcd2f is surely worth investigating. So, can you 'try' the lcd2f by the same method that you tried the lcd3?
  
 You'd be helping answer our question. And everyone else who wonders the same thing.
 Surely, you must be curious? But, there's no pressure. It's up to you. Only if you want to. It doesn't really matter. Don't worry about us...


----------



## Noodlz

@BassDigger Oh man. Now you got me thinking lol~ Well the Cable Co rental thing has a waiting period depending on availability. i had to wait about 2 months to get the LCD3 & XC's in, so if i went that route again it might be a while before I can report to team SS Gustard ~ =P
  
 However, I can probably manage to sell a bunch of stuff and buy a pair of LCD 2F's to compare, before buying the LCD3 lol. Though i noticed that used prices for the LCD2 isn't as good as buying a used LCD3, in fact it like if i'm spending $800 i might as well get a little more and spend $1400 and get the LCD 3F's (i know its very skewed logic lol). It's also one of those things since i already have the 2.2, dunno if i want to spend the $ for a minor upgrade lol. That being said.. now i am very curious~ i guess we'll see how things play out financially to see what i can get my hands on =)


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> they sound just soooo realistic; they have a real presence factor, which sometimes has me looking around the room, wondering what's occurring! *Does the lcd 2.2 ever do this?*


 
 Yes


----------



## BassDigger

dddamian said:


> Yes


 
  
 OK smartas.....person, do _you_ know how they compare to the lcd2 fazor?


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> OK smartas.....person, do _you_ know how they compare to the lcd2 fazor?


 
 You've got me there lol. I can't comment on the Fazor'd version but there are many direct comparisons online here. For my own part I am intentionally avoiding the Fazors on this set (by design on purchase and by avoiding upgrading). By all accounts the Fazor'd models should have even better imaging and a bit more focus up top. Both these traits can only enhance what you had asked for.
  
 So.....yes


----------



## BassDigger

@DDDamian
  
 (Slowly steering back on topic)
  
 Actually, with my preference for 'realistic' bass, had I realised that there is probably such a difference, in the bass performance, between the pre-fazor and fazor editions, I may have hunted around for some earlier models. That's why I'm trying to get a better idea of the trade-off; what (or how much) are you getting instead of that 'perfect' bass response? I guess I should start trawling through one of the lcd2 threads; they're just so many posts; I don't know where to start.
  
 I notice that you also own the he400. I had those, but got rid. I found them too 'light' sounding; there was no weight or 'body' to the sound; they were all speed and texture, but no substance. Also, the mids and treble were unrefined. But it may well have been as much my amps problem; lack of power. I guess I'll never know.
  
 The lcd2f is much warmer and fuller sounding, with mids and treble that I've yet to fault. I know that my current amp isn't a perfect match for these either. So, I'm very interested to find out what an H10 will bring to the party. If it's some more extension and power in the sub-bass, and maybe a tad more (he400 style) attack, I'll be very happy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 (Yes! Got back on topic)


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> @DDDamian
> 
> (Slowly steering back on topic)
> 
> ...


 
 Well, first of all we have matching ears lol - I couldn't agree more with your assessment of the HE-400, and much of what you wrote about the LCD2F applies to how I feel about the LCD2,2c(lassic).
  
 The H10 brings a lot of current to the party - more than my BH S.E.X amp by around double. Nowhere near apples-to-apples, but there were advantages to both amps.
  
 The S.E.X. has a very spacious feel for a tube amp, and is IMO a little brighter than the H10 despite being tube. It is a little weaker in the bass department.
  
 The H10 brought about excellent bass extension and control, and both soundstage and detail improved. That surprised me as the H10 is quite warm - way too warm for the 650's in my opinion. Too smooth. I can only attribute the soundstage and detail improvements to the solid-state aspect versus the tubes.
  
 Both are great amps, just different flavours. The pairing of the H10 and the LCD2.2c is excellent - it brings all the current and control needed to fully utilize the deep bass of the LCD without ever getting fatiguing or harsh. Despite the warm/warm pairing there is just enough top-end for me without sacrificing detail. Attack and punch are there without being overdone, and at least with the pre-fazor the slam is incredible for such a refined combo.
  
 I'd recommend either, but give the edge to the H10 for price and synergy with these 'phones.
  
 Wish I could help with the pre-/post-fazor but I can't. I doubt the pairing would suffer at all with the fazor models though - only improve slightly.


----------



## mylica

stuartmc said:


> The 797, 2604 combination retains more of the original H10's character. The added detail and drive of the 797 comes through nearly the same as it does with the stock 5532's- Perhaps with just a little more clarity. It's pretty subtle and without the benefit of direct a/b testing I take my own findings with the appropriately sized grain of salt.
> 
> The 823 was a different story. This one I could hear more plainly. Hard to say whether it is passing the 797's sound with less filter, or adding its own mojo on top of it. Either way, it's the sound I have been looking for. If you were wishing that your H10 was just a little less warm, had a smidge more upper treble energy, more fine detail and a little more imaging, than the 797/823 combo is it. Maybe Analog Devices has a house sound, our maybe these opamps were designed to be synergistic together. Whatever it is, they sound wonderful in the H10...and that's MY kind of wonderful. You guys can have fun finding your own flavor.


 
 Just put in 823 (i have put in 797 for a week).  I agree with you stuart.  823 does bring more detail, more upper treble.  It is hard to say which one that I like.  On some songs, i like 823 +797, and other songs I prefer stock 5523+797.
  
 797 is a must for me.  Waiting for 2604 (should be in tomorrow).
  
 Anyone have other opamps that you have rolled in?


----------



## stuartmc

mylica said:


> Just put in 823 (i have put in 797 for a week).  I agree with you stuart.  823 does bring more detail, more upper treble.  It is hard to say which one that I like.  On some songs, i like 823 +797, and other songs I prefer stock 5523+797.
> 
> 797 is a must for me.  Waiting for 2604 (should be in tomorrow).
> 
> Anyone have other opamps that you have rolled in?




The 823 needed a little more time to settle in, than the 2604. I don't know why that is, but it sounded more natural to me after about six hours of burn in. It is definitely more revealing of recordings that have a ragged top end, but it sounds sublime with the good ones. A very current example is David Chesky's The New Jazz Harmonic, Primal Scream - great music with a superb binaural recording. The 797/823 combo put me in the room more realistically than I have ever heard with my headphone system. The "live" mojo is in the fine details and the very low level ambient cues that ride just above the noise floor. When these are unmasked, it is definitely goosebumps time.


----------



## stuartmc

I can never form an audio opinion immediately after powering back up. My system needs to be on for a few hours before it sounds it's best. I have to stifle those initial impressions because they always change in a few hours.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello guys, pardon me for just jumping into the middle of this op-amp conversation without any clue, but that would be cool if someone could let me know:
  
 So is it the general consensus that the 823 op-amp with the 797 that the H10 already has is the best combination? And how many of you have tried op-amps?
  
 More importantly, about how much do they cost and is there any sort of soldering needed to plug them in?


----------



## blasjw

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, pardon me for just jumping into the middle of this op-amp conversation without any clue, but that would be cool if someone could let me know:
> 
> So is it the general consensus that the 823 op-amp with the 797 that the H10 already has is the best combination? And how many of you have tried op-amps?
> 
> More importantly, about how much do they cost and is there any sort of soldering needed to plug them in?


 

 I haven't tried rolling any in my H10 just yet but it's fully socketed so no soldering is involved unless you're working with SOIC chips that aren't pre-mounted to an adapter.  The prices can vary from cents (TL082) to well over $100 for a pair of dual discretes like Burson for example.  Oh, and make sure to replace with like kind i.e. dual with dual and single with single.  There are adapters to run dual single chips like opa627 in place of a single dual as well.


----------



## genclaymore

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, pardon me for just jumping into the middle of this op-amp conversation without any clue, but that would be cool if someone could let me know:
> 
> So is it the general consensus that the 823 op-amp with the 797 that the H10 already has is the best combination? And how many of you have tried op-amps?
> 
> More importantly, about how much do they cost and is there any sort of soldering needed to plug them in?


 

 They just slot right in and the prices can ranges depending on the op-amp. I like 2x LME49860 with 2x LME49990's my self but you might not like that sound signature. In fact you wont know what you like til you try a couple of op-amps mentioned in the op-amp thread or sound card treads. Just remember the H10 has two Dual channel sockets that are at the back of the unit and two single channel op-amp sockets that are at the long width side of the unit.  You can use Two pairs of single channel op-amps on adapters in the dual channel sockets, just make sure to have notch and the circle facing the same direction as the notch on the socket, or you will mess something up. Also the Dip-8 op-amps will come as /-\, your gonna have to bend them so their | - | so they will go in to the sockets.


----------



## stuartmc

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, pardon me for just jumping into the middle of this op-amp conversation without any clue, but that would be cool if someone could let me know:
> 
> So is it the general consensus that the 823 op-amp with the 797 that the H10 already has is the best combination? And how many of you have tried op-amps?
> 
> More importantly, about how much do they cost and is there any sort of soldering needed to plug them in?




The H10 does not already have the 797. It comes stock with two single channel opa123's right next to the large heat sink. At the outputs it comes stock with two dual channel NE5532's. We are talking about substituting the AD797 for the opa123's and then substituting the AD823 for the NE5532's.


----------



## bavinck

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, pardon me for just jumping into the middle of this op-amp conversation without any clue, but that would be cool if someone could let me know:
> 
> So is it the general consensus that the 823 op-amp with the 797 that the H10 already has is the best combination? And how many of you have tried op-amps?
> 
> More importantly, about how much do they cost and is there any sort of soldering needed to plug them in?



You looking to get an h10? The he500/h10 combo is amazing for electronica!


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi Bavinck and everybody else, thanks for replying.
  
 I've still got the H10 'on the drawing board', but first need to get my income back and plan to buy a mid-level tube amp first. That's why I haven't been too active on this thread lately.
  
 I've tried the HE-560 and found it too 'speaker like' and slightly dark, the HE-400 and found it to be too 'thin' and bright sounding, but the HE-6 took me to an alternate dimension. So I'll assume the HE-500 is too similar to the 400/560 and keep hoping I can get the 6 before it's gone. My main can now is the Senn. HD 650 and I've heard it pairs good with the H10.
  
 That's really useful info. on the op-amps for the H10 guys, thanks. I'll return back to this page after I get the amp. But for now could somebody tell me where do you buy these things anyway? And until then, that would be helpful for us all if we can continue posting our impressions of how different op-amps effect the sound of the H10. Probably there's also gotta be some combo. out there of ap-amps to get the right bass for Mr. BassDigger too.


----------



## fritobugger

decentlevi said:


> Hi Bavinck and everybody else, thanks for replying.
> 
> I've still got the H10 'on the drawing board', but first need to get my income back and plan to buy a mid-level tube amp first. That's why I haven't been too active on this thread lately.
> 
> ...


 
  
 To me HE-500 much closer to the HE-6 than it is to the HE-400, HE-400i or HE-560.  With the HE-400 being most unlike the others.  400i and 560 are somewhat similar.


----------



## blasjw

stuartmc said:


> The H10 does not already have the 797. It comes stock with two single channel opa123's right next to the large heat sink. At the outputs it comes stock with two dual channel NE5532's. We are talking about substituting the AD797 for the opa123's and then substituting the AD823 for the NE5532's.


 
 What ever happened to Muses?  I thought they were all the rage.


----------



## blasjw

decentlevi said:


> Hi Bavinck and everybody else, thanks for replying.
> 
> I've still got the H10 'on the drawing board', but first need to get my income back and plan to buy a mid-level tube amp first. That's why I haven't been too active on this thread lately.
> 
> ...


 
 There are innumerable places to get op-amps but some large electronic component distributors like mouser or digi-key is a good place to start:
http://www.mouser.com
http://www.digi-key.com
  
 If you want to run opa627s in a place of a dual op-amp you need some browndogs like this:
http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx


----------



## stuartmc

blasjw said:


> What ever happened to Muses?  I thought they were all the rage.




I personally made the decision that $100 for a pair of op-amps was a little out of line with the incredible value the H10 represents. The Muses may be incredibly good, but that doesn't mean that some more affordable contenders can't get you 98% there...Maybe even 100%. I suppose I will eventually try them, but I really get much more excited when I find something great that everyone can afford.


----------



## jazzwave

blasjw said:


> There are innumerable places to get op-amps but some large electronic component distributors like mouser or digi-key is a good place to start:
> http://www.mouser.com
> http://www.digi-key.com
> 
> ...


 
  
 I use OPA627 browndogs in  other amp (Maverick D1), love the sound.Better bass definition.
 I wish this opamp can contribute better sound in H10 as well.
  
 Another contender is MUSES02 ($55 ,Amazon)
http://www.njr.com/MUSES/MUSES02.html
  
 Features
 Bipolar input
 Operating Voltage:Vopr=±3.5V to ±16V
 Output noise :4.5nV/√Hz
 Input Offset Voltage:VIO=0.3mVtyp. 3mV max.
 Input Bias Current:IB=100nA typ. 500nA max. @Ta=25°C
 Voltage Gain:Av=110dB typ.
 Slew Rate:SR=5V/µs typ.
 Bipolar Technology


----------



## blasjw

stuartmc said:


> I personally made the decision that $100 for a pair of op-amps was a little out of line with the incredible value the H10 represents. The Muses may be incredibly good, but that doesn't mean that some more affordable contenders can't get you 98% there...Maybe even 100%. I suppose I will eventually try them, but I really get much more excited when I find something great that everyone can afford.


 
 Yes, I figured the price and/or availability was an issue.  Just curious since I hadn't heard anything about them for a while.  Not a good match for the super value H10 I suppose.


jazzwave said:


> I use OPA627 browndogs in  other amp (Maverick D1), love the sound.Better bass definition.
> I wish this opamp can contribute better sound in H10 as well.
> 
> Another contender is MUSE02 ($55 ,Amazon)
> ...


 
 Sweet, I'm running OPA627 browndogs in my GDA-600.  Muses - always expensive and hard to get.  Looks like importing them from Japan  though Amazon could be a good option especially since Mouser & Digi-key can't seem to stock them.


----------



## Lohb

Anyone know if LM6171 could be compatible ?
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/79785/buffered-input-lm6171-headamp#post_911078
  
  
 QUOTE "
 My main purpose building this test board is to test the LM6171 Op-Amp. Some people said it sounds very good, probably the best op-amp in the world. This Op-Amp has a few great feature:
 1. Very high slew rate : 3600 V/uS
 2. High output current : 100 mA
 It is known that slew rate is one of the most important factor of a good amplifier. The higher the slew rate, the better the amp.
 Just for comparison of slew rate:
 OPA2134 : 20 V/uS
 OPA637 : 135 V/uS
 AD8610 : 60 V/uS    """


----------



## moriez

decentlevi said:


> But for now could somebody tell me where do you buy these things anyway?


 
  
 Analog Devices and I'm quite sure other manufacturers ship up to two samples of certain op-amps for free. The AD797ANZ is one of them. The AD823ANZ on the other hand is not without cost.


----------



## stuartmc

lohb said:


> Anyone know if LM6171 could be compatible




It should work in place of the opa123 or the AD797. It's only $3 over at Mouser, so I kind of doubt it's the best there is for the application. Texas instruments makes it and they have other far more expensive op-amps in their line up.

Price isn't always a good indicator for sound quality, but in this case I think it holds up. The 6171 just hasn't garnered much good press over the years, while the 797 has near legendary status.


----------



## LancerFIN

liu junyuan said:


> Unfortunately, no. I have been asking for this for a long time. For instance, how would the Gustard stack sound against the NFB-28/29?


 

 There will be soon. I ended up ordering NFB-1AMP. I don't have balanced cable yet though.


----------



## sportteo

ok ...after a week my opinion for GUSTARD H10  is that i am fully satisfied  with the sound .!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




    i use it with xlr cables Mogami Neglex 2534  balance mode ,gain +6, dac matrix  i-pro and HE 500 cans and at  some DSD tracks makes me happy...! what a combo ! at the same time punchy, smooth ,and analytic.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

sportteo said:


> ok ...after a week my opinion for GUSTARD H10  is that i am fully satisfied  with the sound .!...:tongue_smile:    i use it with xlr cables Mogami Neglex 2534  balance mode ,gain +6, dac matrix  i-pro and HE 500 cans and at  some DSD tracks makes me happy...! what a combo ! at the same time punchy, smooth ,and analytic.




Congratulations! Yes, I hooked in the HE-500 to the H10 yesterday for some electronic listening, and I was extremely satisfied. I don't think I can find the resolve to sell my beautiful modded HE-500. 

I am intrigued by the recent op-amp discussion and think it is a great turn of topic for this thread. I want to try some of these suggestions once my finances have a chance to stabilize.


----------



## Provisus

Maybe a silly suggestion because I don't have any knowledge about OP Amps. How about the TPA6120A2, this one is also in the HDVA600. Maybe this improves even more the synergy with Sennheiser headphones.
  
 I really like the Gustard H10 with my HD800! But it is terrible with my Lawton audio Denon headphone.


----------



## xevman

provisus said:


> Maybe a silly suggestion because I don't have any knowledge about OP Amps. How about the TPA6120A2, this one is also in the HDVA600. Maybe this improves even more the synergy with Sennheiser headphones.
> 
> I really like the Gustard H10 with my HD800! But it is terrible with my Lawton audio Denon headphone.


 
 strange never had an issue with my modded ah d2000s sound great to me


----------



## olek

Ahoy fellow swabbies!
  
 Just to be different from all the planar + H10 lovers out here, I found (accidentally) another great pairing for H10. Got Philips SHP9500 for $50 from newegg this week just because I could and I liked what I heard about them. Yes, they can be had that cheap, many of you pay more than that for interconnects. Speaking of cables, 3.5mm to 3.5mm headphone cable that came with them did not impress me at all sound-wise, but swapping it for another $5 cable from my box improved situation quite a bit.
  
 Anyway those darn Philips headphones. Comfort - at the level of DT880 (the best). Very generously sized, blessing for those of us with huge melons. Sound? Pretty good. Powered from my other amps (DACmini, Crack, NAD1020) they sound like DT880 wannabe (good thing in my opinion) - neutral, clean, with a bit more bass and low-mids than DT880 and not as strident highs, but not nearly as veiled as HD650. Stock cable adds much murkiness, but getting rid of it improves things quite a bit. It is pretty ridiculous how bad that cable sounds. Still, even after replacing that cable (with another cheapie, yes) there is no precision or tightness of DT880 in there, they stay a very good ... 'wannabe'.
  
 Now, you ask, why the hell I am mentioning that here? Because it all changes when I plug them to H10. It changes the sound of those SHP9500's enough that it changes character. It becomes much softer, lusher sound, kinda like HD650 but without that bit of 'in a cave' veil (sorry, Liu). I am having difficulty describing it, but those headphones are being changed quite a bit by H10. They are perfect (in my opinion) for jazz (that is what I am throwing at them now). Granted, their sound is quite different from DT880 now, not analytical at all, but just very musical. Sounds just like I am sitting in that bar and listening to jazz music live. I can't even really compare DT880 fed from Crack/DACmini to SHP9500 fed from H10 anymore, those are apples to oranges comparison, sound is way too different. But it is really good sound. Totally enjoying it.
  
 Of course, feeding those $50 phones from setup that costs 8x to 20x as much (DACmini as dac + H10) is absolutely insane, but ... I have no qualms doing it, and my DT880 and HD650 are resting for now, and it feels NORMAL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 In my VERY humble opinion H10 paired with SHP9500 is one of greatest values for your buck in our head-fi hobby. I have no doubt that planars would sound even better. But bang for the buck of this combo is just so mad, this combo must be illegal. Never mind DACmini of course. 
  
 Give it a try if you will. Or at least consider it if you stumble on another deal on those. $50 shipped... that makes them cheapest headphones I bought in last 10 years (excluding junky IEMs), and they deliver, not with any amp, but H10 does the trick!
  
 Mind you, I am quite excited with new toy and with time will find more shortcomings of this setup and my opinion will become more balanced, but those Philips undeniably sound much better to me than K553 that I also recently acquired for almost 3x the price.
  
 Some of you old timers here have noticed that I have (finally) got my hands on DACmini (took only 2 month to get that drop). My uneducated opinion on that shiny brick will come later.
  
 Oh, and here is (an almost unrelated) parting gift to you that will waste much of your valuable time. Really nice semi-objective way to play with sound and effects of its alterations.
  
 https://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/introduction.html


----------



## fritobugger

Very interesting.  I have a set of SHP9500 sitting at my mother's house in the States.  Looks like I will need to bring them back with me after Xmas to give them a try on the H10.  They are super comfy.


----------



## abhishekSPS

Hi all
 could any one explain me the difference between hd650+speedballed crack and he500+h10....


----------



## Noodlz

Contemplating here, has anyone here had a chance to compare the Alpha dogs, alpha primes, and/or the Oppo PM 1(or 2 or 3) with the H10? I'm contemplating on getting a pair of alpha dog / alpha prime considering their prices have fallen recently. I assume it'd pair well given the H10 is magical with planars (LCD's and the HE560s)


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Thank you for writing this. I have never heard of those headphones until you mentioned them. How would they differ from the Philips Fidelio X2, other than price? It is no secret that Philips headphones employ impeccable build quality in the Philips Fidelio line (yours seems to be within the same family.) Your post makes me wonder if the X2 would also be a nice pairing with the H10.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

noodlz said:


> Contemplating here, has anyone here had a chance to compare the Alpha dogs, alpha primes, and/or the Oppo PM 1(or 2 or 3) with the H10? I'm contemplating on getting a pair of alpha dog / alpha prime considering their prices have fallen recently. I assume it'd pair well given the H10 is magical with planars (LCD's and the HE560s)


 
 Good question: I have only heard the Oppo PM-1 (allegedly identical in sound quality to the PM-2 with pad rolling). However, my trial period was prior to owning the H10, when the Lyr was my primary amp. I thought the PM-1's would benefit from a brighter, airier amp since they have this tendency to sound closed in and overly warm in the lower mids and upper bass, almost as if they were tuned with the HA-1 amp in mind.
  
 However, since you are reporting favorable results with the LCD-3 and H10 pairing, it is highly possible you could enjoy the PM-2 through the H10 as well. I really would like to try out a pair of PM-3s at some point though, as some with ears I trust have claimed it is Oppo's most polished headphone to date, despite its relatively cheaper price and its closed-form factor.


----------



## lukeap69

The PM-2 sounds differently with the H10 and the Lyr 2. The mids become sweeter with the H10. The bass rumbles with the Lyr 2 (exaggeration of course...) but there is definitely a noticeable difference there (to me.) Now @Koolpep did not find the bass so different when he compared the Lyr 2 and H10. Perhaps because of different setup. 
  
 As I have said on the PM-3 thread, this thing scales up well. It surprised me when I've paired it with  the Lyr 2. It was a nice surprise. Really... The H10 also made the PM-3 sing. Again, sweeter mids. Controlled bass. And smoother treble. Choose your poison.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lukeap69 said:


> The PM-2 sounds differently with the H10 and the Lyr 2. The mids become sweeter with the H10. The bass rumbles with the Lyr 2 (exaggeration of course...) but there is definitely a noticeable difference there (to me.) Now @Koolpep did not find the bass so different when he compared the Lyr 2 and H10. Perhaps because of different setup.
> 
> As I have said on the PM-3 thread, this thing scales up well. It surprised me when I've paired it with  the Lyr 2. It was a nice surprise. Really... The H10 also made the PM-3 sing. Again, sweeter mids. Controlled bass. And smoother treble. Choose your poison.


 
 Interesting. So you prefer the PM-3 to the PM-2 out of the H10? Does the PM-3 scale with the Rag as well?


----------



## lukeap69

liu junyuan said:


> Interesting. So you prefer the PM-3 to the PM-2 out of the H10? Does the PM-3 scale with the Rag as well?


 
 Ever so slightly, yes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The PM-3 scales well with the Rok (my preferred nickname 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) It is the best pairing so far with the PM-3. This is using my adapter for 6.35mm to 4-pin XLR. I would think using balanced cable would even be better. So nice to have few options (toys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)... 
  
 On another subject (to break the opamp discussions), how do you find  the H10 pairing with the Theta? How about the Lyr? To me, the biggest surprise was how much I have enjoyed the Lyr 2 since my DAC-19 joined the gang... The DAC-19 impact is crazy!


----------



## olek

liu junyuan said:


> Thank you for writing this. I have never heard of those headphones until you mentioned them. How would they differ from the Philips Fidelio X2, other than price? It is no secret that Philips headphones employ impeccable build quality in the Philips Fidelio line (yours seems to be within the same family.) Your post makes me wonder if the X2 would also be a nice pairing with the H10.


 
 I think X2 are rumored to have more bass (quality and quantity), better filling of the mids, and less treble, and SHP9500 are lean in the bass to some, may be a bit sibilant in treble (not as much as DT880), and rumors are they are more clear/detailed in highs, which might be attributable simply to stronger treble.
  
 I threw my test track from Sibelius on them, and their bass is pretty good, better than DT880 from DACMini, but not as good as DT880 from Crack. Now, violins do not sound as clear and realistic as on DT880, but they do not have that slightly painful tinge to them either (real violins have that 'ouch' effect on me in real life too, love them, but they can hurt a little).
  
 So, for now I like to describe SPH9500 as softened up DT880 that pairs well with H10 
  
 How is recovery from unfortunate effects of DT880 on you ears going, Liu?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> I think X2 are rumored to have more bass (quality and quantity), better filling of the mids, and less treble, and SHP9500 are lean in the bass to some, may be a bit sibilant in treble (not as much as DT880), and rumors are they are more clear/detailed in highs, which might be attributable simply to stronger treble.
> 
> I threw my test track from Sibelius on them, and their bass is pretty good, better than DT880 from DACMini, but not as good as DT880 from Crack. Now, violins do not sound as clear and realistic as on DT880, but they do not have that slightly painful tinge to them either (real violins have that 'ouch' effect on me in real life too, love them, but they can hurt a little).
> 
> ...




Thank you for this. They sound like a nice value. 

My ears are fine, and the culprit was not the DT 880, it turns out. I can listen to them without any fatigue at all, and they "jive"quite well with the H10--a pleasant balance between trebly air and warmth. The DT 880 pairs nicely with the H10.


----------



## MattTCG

Okay, so I see the four side screws and the four in back. What else do I need to know to get the chassis open?


----------



## stuartmc

matttcg said:


> Okay, so I see the four side screws and the four in back. What else do I need to know to get the chassis open?


 
 Matt, only the top set of screws front (side) and back need to be removed. The case is like a clam shell and the top half fits into the bottom half where the horizontal ridges appear at the middle of the sides. It fits so nicely together there that at first I too didn't realize it came apart there.


----------



## MattTCG

Got it. Thanks Stuart!


----------



## fattycheesebeef

Can order X20 already!? Cool!! 
  
 Also, iFi USB is a good product to isolate noise from USB?


----------



## 406382

H10 and He-500 are in. Still waiting on the unbalanced cable, so haven't heard the combo yet. Argh, can't stand the wait. Guess I'll start the burn-in in the mean time. 
  
 Tried the HD600 with the H10 and it was fine but nothing special. Wasn't blown away. Definitely better than the Magni though, that combo was terrible. I guess I won't hear the HD600 true potential until I test it with an OTL amp. 
  
 BTW, am I bottlenecking the H10 by using a Schiit Modi as DAC? I hope not, cause I'm way over budget as it is


----------



## mylica

mark235 said:


> H10 and He-500 are in. Still waiting on the unbalanced cable, so haven't heard the combo yet. Argh, can't stand the wait. Guess I'll start the burn-in in the mean time.
> 
> Tried the HD600 with the H10 and it was fine but nothing special. Wasn't blown away. Definitely better than the Magni though, that combo was terrible. I guess I won't hear the HD600 true potential until I test it with an OTL amp.
> 
> BTW, am I bottlenecking the H10 by using a Schiit Modi as DAC? I hope not, cause I'm way over budget as it is


 
  
 Wait for your H10 run for a week or two.  Using HD600 with H10.  Sounds very good for me.  I do change the op amp though


----------



## bavinck

@mark235 burn it in for 4 or 5 days. Most people notice a big change around day 3 or 4. I bet you will really like it with the hd600 once burned in.


----------



## olek

mark235 said:


> H10 and He-500 are in. Still waiting on the unbalanced cable, so haven't heard the combo yet. Argh, can't stand the wait. Guess I'll start the burn-in in the mean time.
> 
> Tried the HD600 with the H10 and it was fine but nothing special. Wasn't blown away. Definitely better than the Magni though, that combo was terrible. I guess I won't hear the HD600 true potential until I test it with an OTL amp.
> 
> BTW, am I bottlenecking the H10 by using a Schiit Modi as DAC? I hope not, cause I'm way over budget as it is


 

 Yes, you are bottlenecking it by your DAC, question is 'how much'. I have heard that new Modi 2 Uber is pretty good, but my experience with original Modi suggests that it does not have much detail/texture, and that is exactly the strong side of H10. H10 can not amplify the detail that is not supplied to it.
  
 I am pretty impressed those days by combination of (new to me) DACmini CX and H10 with low impedance headphones. DACmini bested MusicStreamer II so much that it was not even funny - mostly in smoothness and sheer musicality, HRT sounded extremely grainy in comparison. Original Bifrost put up a good fight, but DACmini still beat it in low end extension (goes much deeper and stronger) and overall sound is a notch smoother (without obvious loss of detail) and more musical. Funny because it has same chip as original Modi, but apparently a lot depends on implementation.
  
 Sorry for your wallet.


----------



## bavinck

olek said:


> Yes, you are bottlenecking it by your DAC, question is 'how much'. I have heard that new Modi 2 Uber is pretty good, but my experience with original Modi suggests that it does not have much detail/texture, and that is exactly the strong side of H10. H10 can not amplify the detail that is not supplied to it.
> 
> I am pretty impressed those days by combination of (new to me) DACmini CX and H10 with low impedance headphones. DACmini bested MusicStreamer II so much that it was not even funny - mostly in smoothness and sheer musicality, HRT sounded extremely grainy in comparison. Original Bifrost put up a good fight, but DACmini still beat it in low end extension (goes much deeper and stronger) and overall sound is a notch smoother (without obvious loss of detail) and more musical. Funny because it has same chip as original Modi, but apparently a lot depends on implementation.
> 
> Sorry for your wallet. :tongue_smile:



I wonder how the dacmini/h10 combo compares with the x12/h10 combo? Does anyone know?


----------



## Koolpep

olek said:


> Yes, you are bottlenecking it by your DAC, question is 'how much'. I have heard that new Modi 2 Uber is pretty good, but my experience with original Modi suggests that it does not have much detail/texture, and that is exactly the strong side of H10. H10 can not amplify the detail that is not supplied to it.
> 
> I am pretty impressed those days by combination of (new to me) DACmini CX and H10 with low impedance headphones. DACmini bested MusicStreamer II so much that it was not even funny - mostly in smoothness and sheer musicality, HRT sounded extremely grainy in comparison. Original Bifrost put up a good fight, but DACmini still beat it in low end extension (goes much deeper and stronger) and overall sound is a notch smoother (without obvious loss of detail) and more musical. Funny because it has same chip as original Modi, but apparently a lot depends on implementation.
> 
> Sorry for your wallet.


 

 I had the same combo: DACMini CX and the H10, now sold the DACMini since I got a great deal on a Burson Conductor. 
  
 We did a blind test between DACs connected to the H10 and my friend was able to pick out the DACmini every single time, it's a great implemented AKM chip in it and it sounded so more refined than the Modi, Modi2Uber and the X5 I threw in for good measure. 
  
 The DACMini is indeed a very well made device.
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## 406382

mylica said:


> Wait for your H10 run for a week or two.  Using HD600 with H10.  Sounds very good for me.  I do change the op amp though


 
  


bavinck said:


> @mark235 burn it in for 4 or 5 days. Most people notice a big change around day 3 or 4. I bet you will really like it with the hd600 once burned in.


 
  
 Alright, I will wait for a bit and give it another go.


----------



## 406382

olek said:


> Yes, you are bottlenecking it by your DAC, question is 'how much'. I have heard that new Modi 2 Uber is pretty good, but my experience with original Modi suggests that it does not have much detail/texture, and that is exactly the strong side of H10. H10 can not amplify the detail that is not supplied to it.
> 
> I am pretty impressed those days by combination of (new to me) DACmini CX and H10 with low impedance headphones. DACmini bested MusicStreamer II so much that it was not even funny - mostly in smoothness and sheer musicality, HRT sounded extremely grainy in comparison. Original Bifrost put up a good fight, but DACmini still beat it in low end extension (goes much deeper and stronger) and overall sound is a notch smoother (without obvious loss of detail) and more musical. Funny because it has same chip as original Modi, but apparently a lot depends on implementation.
> 
> Sorry for your wallet.


 
  
 Yes, well my wallet is already bleeding, but it isn't dead yet. What the wife will do if I make another purchase could be of more concern though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. We've bought a house recently so I'll have to go easy on the hobby for now. 
  
 Thanks for your info on comparing those DAC's. Looks like the DACmini will go on the shortlist in the future.


----------



## olek

Interesting detail about headphone cables. I really did not like stock cable that came with SHP9500 (so very muddy), thought that cheap Belkin cable was a great improvement, and that (still inexpensive, but better made, with metal endings) $5 MediaBridge cable was giving the cleanest sound.
  
 Measuring their resistance with multimeter (couple days later) gave me those numbers (after subtracting zero offset):
  
 Stock: 1.8 Ohm
 Belkin: 0.4 Ohm
 MediaBridge: 0.2 Ohm
  
 See the correlation? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now,  I do not trust absolute numbers measuring resistance that low with my cheap multimeter, but its placement of those cables on resistance range can be trusted.
  
 Pretty interesting how much those values affected sound, and how easy it was to pick by ear lower resistance cable (before I knew anything about their resistance).
  
 My theory is that with low impedance cans (those are 32 Ohm), higher cable resistance screws number of things, and I suspect that reduced damping factor is primary factor.
  
 To develop this theory (and to involve H10 in this post), I had more back and forth listening between DACMini headphone out (that is modified from 10 Ohm to 1Ohm by CEntrance) and H10 (that I believe is is a bit higher output impedance than 1 Ohm), and difference became more clear: double bass sounded more 'full' and 'musical' on H10, but 'plucking' detail was being pushed down and that plucking transient was not to be heard much, where DACMini double bass lines were more shy and dry, but plucking was a bit more prominent - probably low frequency transients handled better because of lower damping factor. Both kinds of sound are really good, but somehow H10 sounds more 'musical' and 'enjoyable' even that it is losing some transient details. Now  I understand why CEntrance does NOT generally recommend 1 Ohm modification, unless user is planning to use amp with very low impedance headphones (mostly IEMs), they were saying that their testing suggested that 10 Ohm output impedance was more 'musical' despite of 'theoretical' advantage of 'near 0' impedance. They were right, indeed.
  
 Of course, 100 Ohm of Crack's output impedance was way too much in this case, causing bloated bass and overall loss of detail. Not fun at all.
  
 Wait, is that a goldilocks effect? Too little output impedance, and sound is too analytical, too much, and it is bloat galore, and it has to be just right for sound to be musical ?


----------



## railrus

Guess everyone agree H10 works with HE560. Did anyone tried Benchmark DAC2  HGC with this combo? reason is i am using the DAC? hope someone can gives some insights. Thanks in advance!


----------



## genclaymore

mark235 said:


> Yes, well my wallet is already bleeding, but it isn't dead yet. What the wife will do if I make another purchase could be of more concern though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Pray she doesn't pick up the H10 and throw it at your head since it large and heavy like a brick.


----------



## 406382

genclaymore said:


> Pray she doesn't pick up the H10 and throw it at your head since it large and heavy like a brick.


 
  
 Nah, she's already got my Classé for that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.classeaudio.com/products/discontinued/cav-500.php#horizontalTab2
  
 Bought that beast second hand in my better budget days of the audio hobby.


----------



## kdejonge

So I am curious, how does the gain switch affect the sound? How does it change the sound for a headphone, are some settings better for planar vs dynamic ?


----------



## xevman

kdejonge said:


> So I am curious, how does the gain switch affect the sound? How does it change the sound for a headphone, are some settings better for planar vs dynamic ?


 
 IMO the gain switch shouldn't have any impact on the sound signature though there are subjective opinions stating otherwise. In my experience there is no difference its just louder.


----------



## DreamKing

xevman said:


> IMO the gain switch shouldn't have any impact on the sound signature though there are subjective opinions stating otherwise. In my experience there is no difference its just louder.


 
  
 Yeah, I debated it for a bit but it's just equal loudness contours being affected by the substantial loudness change, paired with its potent power capacity as you increase or decrease voltage with gain.
  
 However, I do know that some amps have their measurements change for the worst with added gain but audibly not in the H10's case. Or some amps can change from Class-A to A/B operation with added gain, though this shouldn't introduce audible differences.


----------



## kdejonge

dreamking said:


> Yeah, I debated it for a bit but it's just equal loudness contours being affected by the substantial loudness change, paired with its potent power capacity as you increase or decrease voltage with gain.
> 
> However, I do know that some amps have their measurements change for the worst with added gain but audibly not in the H10's case. Or some amps can change from Class-A to A/B operation with added gain, though this shouldn't introduce audible differences.


 
 What do you use with the he-560? I'm planning to pair it with he-400i. I read +6 is a good number.


----------



## jazzwave

mark235 said:


> H10 and He-500 are in. Still waiting on the unbalanced cable, so haven't heard the combo yet. Argh, can't stand the wait. Guess I'll start the burn-in in the mean time.
> 
> Tried the HD600 with the H10 and it was fine but nothing special. Wasn't blown away. Definitely better than the Magni though, that combo was terrible. I guess I won't hear the HD600 true potential until I test it with an OTL amp.
> 
> BTW, am I bottlenecking the H10 by using a Schiit Modi as DAC? I hope not, cause I'm way over budget as it is


 
  
 I got same impression with HD600+H10 duet, good but nothing special...my old amp (D1 mod) sligthly better than H10 (to my ears)
 Probably my H10 still in burn in process ( passed 5 days), I will update when pass 50 hours.
  
 But noticeably H10 drive Grado SR60i very good, soundstage wider, no harsh sound. I feel like have new cans...


----------



## DreamKing

kdejonge said:


> What do you use with the he-560? I'm planning to pair it with he-400i. I read +6 is a good number.


 
  
 I agree, it's a good number with it. I'm currently on stock gain because I'm running a different kind of config, but with the H10 alone I'd be on +6.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

mark235 said:


> Alright, I will wait for a bit and give it another go.




I second what has been said here. Let the amp run for about 4 days. Also, I owned the original Modi, and while it did the job, you can do better without spending too much. The second gen. Modi/ Uber is worth it, or consider the GO V2.

Or, X12 if you can afford it. 

I believe Schiit is releasing an upgrade to the Bifrost/Gungnir soonish, which will presumably include tech R2R from the Yggy. You may want to wait for that announcement, which Jason and Mike have hinted at coming soon. Yet I realize this is not a Schiit hype thread. 

bottom line is that your dac should be replaced at some point and that you have several attractive options already extant and forthcoming soon.


Congrats on the H10. I like it with my Sennheisers very much.


----------



## 406382

liu junyuan said:


> I second what has been said here. Let the amp run for about 4 days. Also, I owned the original Modi, and while it did the job, you can do better without spending too much. The second gen. Modi/ Uber is worth it, or consider the GO V2.
> 
> Or, X12 if you can afford it.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks for the DAC recommendations. I guess the second gen Modi would be a safe choice wallet wise and perhaps a good quick win in the DAC area. Second hand Ifi iDac also looks to be worth its bucks


----------



## pippen99

Quote:


liu junyuan said:


> I believe Schiit is releasing an upgrade to the Bifrost/Gungnir soonish, which will presumably include tech R2R from the Yggy. You may want to wait for that announcement, which Jason and Mike have hinted at coming soon. Yet I realize this is not a Schiit hype thread.


  
 Be advised that if this upgrade does materialize that Schiit will charge a 100-150 dollar premium to anyone who is not the original owner.


----------



## fritobugger

mark235 said:


> H10 and He-500 are in. Still waiting on the unbalanced cable, so haven't heard the combo yet. Argh, can't stand the wait. Guess I'll start the burn-in in the mean time.
> 
> Tried the HD600 with the H10 and it was fine but nothing special. Wasn't blown away. Definitely better than the Magni though, that combo was terrible. I guess I won't hear the HD600 true potential until I test it with an OTL amp.
> 
> BTW, am I bottlenecking the H10 by using a Schiit Modi as DAC? I hope not, cause I'm way over budget as it is


 
  
 Are you unhappy with the sound of the Modi? DId you do the Golden Ears challenge and score very high? If not yes to both of those, then stick with the Modi and let the H10 burn in.


----------



## fritobugger

mark235 said:


> Thanks for the DAC recommendations. I guess the second gen Modi would be a safe choice wallet wise and perhaps a good quick win in the DAC area. Second hand Ifi iDac also looks to be worth its bucks


 
 Second hand iFi DSD Nano or DAC would be a good choice to balance the warmness of the H10.  I have the SMSL M8 which has the same Sabra chip and it is ok too.


----------



## 406382

fritobugger said:


> Are you unhappy with the sound of the Modi? DId you do the Golden Ears challenge and score very high? If not yes to both of those, then stick with the Modi and let the H10 burn in.


 
  
 That sounds like an ABX test. Tried some of those in the past, got mixed results between them (some totaled average, others high). I've never been fond of these tests to be honest. It takes an approach to the hobby that just doesn't work for me. I'm quite happy to let my brain play tricks on me if that helps me being content with the audio hobby. 
  
 Still, I'll wait for the burn in to take place. No sense in switching DAC's before that, Otherwise I won't know which change did the most, if anything at all.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pippen99 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> liu junyuan said:
> ...


 
 Yes, this is true. And even if buying from Schiit, the upgrade will still cost something, just more for those who purchased second-hand. But, again, this is OT. Back to Gustard.


----------



## 406382

fritobugger said:


> Second hand iFi DSD Nano or DAC would be a good choice to balance the warmness of the H10.  I have the SMSL M8 which has the same Sabra chip and it is ok too.


 
  
 If the iDac or iDSD nano lean more towards analytical / clean than warm, it might not match my preference. I've noticed that I almost always prefer the latter. Guess I'll just have to experiment.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

mark235 said:


> If the iDac or iDSD nano lean more towards analytical / clean than warm, it might not match my preference. I've noticed that I almost always prefer the latter. Guess I'll just have to experiment.


 
 Perhaps. Nothing will replace auditioning gear, but in the absence of this, you can try to find a company that allows for a trial period.


----------



## 406382

liu junyuan said:


> Perhaps. Nothing will replace auditioning gear, but in the absence of this, you can try to find a company that allows for a trial period.


 
  
 I know Schiit does that in the US. I could ask the Dutch distributor Sonority Audio (hoster of Schiit-Europe.com) if they can do the same. 
  
 edit: sorry, seems like I have knack of pulling threads off topic. Back to Gustard again


----------



## natemact

Well taking the Captain's recommendation I finally swabbed out the NE5532's in the Gusty, but instead of going with his suggested AD823AN's I opted for a pair of LME49720NA's (aka LM4562) instead. Not because I didn't believe the Captain's claims, because I'm familiar with the LM4562's sound and was hopping it would translate well to the AD797 fitted H10....well holy boats did it ever! 

The Gusty is now, dare I say it.."neutral". I'm still stunned at this revelation but it's true and I love it! That was really my only quibble with the stock H10's sound as I've always preferred a neutral sound with bass being last on my wish list...I sold my OCC silver cabled JH13FP and kept my ER-4S just to give you an idea of where I stand on signature preference.

A byproduct of this newfound neutrality is an increase in details and clarity, slightly more prominent treble (yet not overly so) and just a more engaging listen (my audio vernacular is definitely lacking) bringing you that much closer to the music. Keep in mind YRMV as my H10 is hooked up to an analog rig, no DAC here..gasp! Although I find my analog rig to be highly resolving and what I would consider to be neutral (maybe even veering slightly on the cooler side) for an analog rig I suspect many digital purists would consider it to be warm in comparison to a DAC. But for all of $6 how could you not pick up a couple of LM4562's along with the AD797/AD823's for your Gusty?


----------



## stuartmc

natemact said:


> Well taking the Captain's recommendation I finally swabbed out the NE5532's in the Gusty, but instead of going with his suggested AD823AN's I opted for a pair of LME49720NA's (aka LM4562) instead. Not because I didn't believe the Captain's claims, because I'm familiar with the LM4562's sound and was hopping it would translate well to the AD797 fitted H10....well holy boats did it ever!


 
  
 Vive la difference!  I was going to try the LM4562's also, but found a lot of commentary that suggested that they sound very similar to the opa 2604's that I had already tried. The AD823's were more clearly of a different flavor -a bit more dynamic with tighter bass, so I opted to try that in place of the 2604's.  I think the key considerations of H10 op-amp rolling (swabbing...arrrr) is going to be the sound/flavor of the gear you associate with the H10 and the sound/flavor you want to end up with.  The permutations and possibilities are practically limitless and that spells FUN to me!


----------



## mylica

stuartmc said:


> Vive la difference!  I was going to try the LM4562's also, but found a lot of commentary that suggested that they sound very similar to the opa 2604's that I had already tried. The AD823's were more clearly of a different flavor -a bit more dynamic with tighter bass, so I opted to try that in place of the 2604's.  I think the key considerations of H10 op-amp rolling is going to be the sound/flavor of the gear you associate with the H10 and the sound/flavor you want to end up with.  The permutations and possibilities are practically limitless and that spells FUN to me!


 
  
 Have 2604 with me for few days but have not put it inside.  Still on 823 + 797.  I will buy LME49720NA as well.
  
 I am aiming at some DAC as well.  Currently using citypulse.  and planning to get power conditioner.


----------



## natemact

Totally agree with you stuartmc this is all very gear dependent and personal taste too. I'm thinking that if my 560's weren't wearing Focus-A pads their 10Khz treble spike may prove to be overbearing with this 4562/797 combo.


----------



## natemact

For anyone who's interested here's a link to an informative opamp article, 4 years old but still relevant.
http://nwavguy.blogspot.ca/2011/08/op-amp-measurements.html?m=1


----------



## stuartmc

natemact said:


> Totally agree with you stuartmc this is all very gear dependent and personal taste too. I'm thinking that if my 560's weren't wearing Focus-A pads their 10Khz treble spike may prove to be overbearing with this 4562/797 combo.




I suspect that it may be a little too revealing for some. I'm running greatly modified 560's that seem to have much less of that frequency bump. I have also gone to obsessive lengths in reducing emi/rfi and associated high frequency grunge. That was done with power conditioning, power cords, shakti stones, yamamura sleeves and a whole lot of 3M AB5100s inside each component cabinet. Then there was resonance cabinet tuning with custom carbon feet applied with constrained layer damping. I must be channeling Enid Lumley, for heavens sake, lol. Anywho, my system can now handle all the resolution I can throw at it without sounding harsh or grainy. That is of course with very good recordings....crap still sounds very much like crap.


----------



## stuartmc

.


----------



## stuartmc

mylica said:


> Have 2604 with me for few days but have not put it inside.  Still on 823 + 797.  I will buy LME49720NA as well.
> 
> I am aiming at some DAC as well.  Currently using citypulse.  and planning to get power conditioner.



Keep us posted swabbie. I'm curious about what others are hearing with these combinations.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> I suspect that it may be a little too revealing for some. I'm running greatly modified 560's that seem to have much less of that frequency bump. I have also gone to obsessive lengths in reducing emi/rfi and associated high frequency grunge. That was done with power conditioning, power cords, shakti stones, yamamura sleeves and a whole lot of 3M AB5100s inside each component cabinet. Then there was resonance cabinet tuning with custom carbon feet applied with constrained layer damping. I must be channeling Enid Lumley, for heavens sake, lol. Anywho, my system can now handle all the resolution I can throw at it without sounding harsh or grainy. That is of course with very good recordings....crap still sounds very much like crap.


 

 Enid said to say hello!!!!
 Hello captain how are you? Well I hope, as all is well down here in Oz. Greetings, Swabbie Swannie.


----------



## Suopermanni

swannie007 said:


> Enid said to say hello!!!!
> Hello captain how are you? Well I hope, as all is well down here in Oz. Greetings, Swabbie Swannie.


 
  
 Hey there,
  
 I don't suppose you've heard the V200 before, have you? I haven't heard the Gustard H10 before. Could I interest you in a swapping demo for a week or two?


----------



## Lohb

.


----------



## LancerFIN

swannie007 said:


> Enid said to say hello!!!!
> Hello captain how are you? Well I hope, as all is well down here in Oz. Greetings, Swabbie Swannie.


 
  
  


suopermanni said:


> Hey there,
> 
> I don't suppose you've heard the V200 before, have you? I haven't heard the Gustard H10 before. Could I interest you in a swapping demo for a week or two?


 
 Do this. Seems like excellent opportunity to compare these amps.


----------



## jazzwave

Question:
 I'm using RCA input (from DAC), what the best Pre Gain set up for HD600?


----------



## ansi

Interesting bit of info, I just dropped by at Gustard and asked why is the power cord supplied with H10 is so bad. They told me that it doesn't even ship with one, so the power cord you got would be one that the reseller packaged with it. I guess that's why some people think it's terrible while others think it's fine - it's not the same cord.
  
 Other interesting Gustard stuff in the general Gustard thread.


----------



## MattTCG

jazzwave said:


> Question:
> I'm using RCA input (from DAC), what the best Pre Gain set up for HD600?


 
 +6 seems to be the sweet spot IMO. But try it out and find what works best for you.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

matttcg said:


> +6 seems to be the sweet spot IMO. But try it out and find what works best for you.




This.


----------



## mylica

jazzwave said:


> Question:
> I'm using RCA input (from DAC), what the best Pre Gain set up for HD600?


 
  
 I am using +6.  Work best for me


----------



## DDDamian

lohb said:


> Stu with your extensive exp. in the field, is there any reason that the H10 cannot get a panel mount XLR at the front added on ?
> Since I assume it is true balanced end-to-end and then for some reason they went with TRS output..


 
 I'd love to hear if anyone has modded this yet too!


----------



## jazzwave

+6  works nicely...thx.


----------



## Monahans67

Just happened to find this thread and came up with some questions.  I presently have Audio Technica W5000 headphones and am using a PS Audio DL III with the Cullen Stage 4 mod.  I would be able to go from the DAC to this amp using the XLR.  How do you think the W5000 would work with this amp.


----------



## swannie007

suopermanni said:


> Hey there,
> 
> I don't suppose you've heard the V200 before, have you? I haven't heard the Gustard H10 before. Could I interest you in a swapping demo for a week or two?


 

 Hello Suopermanni, Thanks for the kind offer but I will pass at this time. I really have no desire to unplug my gear and transport it at the moment as I currently have a setup on my desk just the way I like it. Hope you understand. Cheers.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

swannie007, where did you get your H10?


----------



## LostDog54

Been lurking for while. I have really learned a lot and appreciate the good read. The knowledgable reviews and opinions have been very helpful in getting on the Gustard bandwagon(aka SS Gustard). Looking forward to the buttery goodness and a kick in the face without the pain. Below is a Massdrop link for the X12 if anyone is interested. 3 more for lowest price and 12 hrs before the drop ends.


Link: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-dac-x12-usb-version

Gustard X12 Dac on sale now for $439.99 at the link above. Need three more for lowest price. Jump on it.

I have the Gustard H10 on the way already. Need the X12 to round out my Gustard setup. $100 bucks off is not as good of a deal as the H10 but $100 bucks none the less.

Only 12 hrs left... Jump on it, please. Thanks


----------



## LostDog54

Not sure where he got his H10 but I just got one on Massdrop last week. The drop is over but pollychen on eBay is another good reliable vendor. Mass drop does have the Gustard Dac X12 on sale right now. For 8 more hours... If anybody is thinking about pulling the trigger on the X12, now would be a good time. $100 bucks off the regular price. Only one needed for lowest price.


----------



## genclaymore

If I had the money I would grab the X12 but sadly I don't.


----------



## DDDamian

Yeah, sorry mate - pretty enamoured right now with my UD-501. Hope someone jumps onboard for ya!


----------



## LostDog54

To both genclaymore and DDDamian I appreciate the replies... I just checked and it hit the lowest price point this evening. Still a couple hours to get in this drop if anyone is interested in the X12.... Thanks again.


----------



## swannie007

fattycheesebeef said:


> swannie007, where did you get your H10?


 
 I got mine from pollychen on E bay. Good price and decent delivery and also recommended by others on this forum.


----------



## fritobugger

The X12 looks like an excellent unit but a bit too pricey for me right now.  I am still swimming in the glow of my M8.


----------



## DDDamian

fritobugger said:


> The X12 looks like an excellent unit but a bit too pricey for me right now.  I am still swimming in the glow of my M8.


 
 fritobugger.......as in Bored of the Rings?


----------



## fritobugger

dddamian said:


> fritobugger.......as in Bored of the Rings?


 
 I was gonna go with dildobaggins but it seemed a bit too much.


----------



## jazzwave

Thinking to move  OPA627 Browndogs from  from old amp to H10, Which opamp can be replaced by OPA627?
 '


----------



## fattycheesebeef

swannie007 said:


> I got mine from pollychen on E bay. Good price and decent delivery and also recommended by others on this forum.


 
  
  
 Cool. How long was the wait? Delivered by Auspost?


----------



## DDDamian

fritobugger said:


> I was gonna go with dildobaggins but it seemed a bit too much.


 
 Indeed lol. But top-marks for a nick-pick


----------



## moriez

natemact said:


> For anyone who's interested here's a link to an informative opamp article, 4 years old but still relevant.


 
  
 Very informative and down to earth read. I've asked @ansi to try and get ''Mr.Gustard's'' opinion on how other op-amps behave in the H10 circuitry. Should be interesting.


----------



## 406382

mark235 said:


> Alright, I will wait for a bit and give it another go.


 
  
 I have no idea how far I am on the burn in, but... there's a change with the HD600 performance... a good one... and it ain't subtle. It's not so much that I expected this to happen, I'm not a believer in burn-in and was a bit sceptic about it. I might be a convert after tonight. 
  
 The Gustard sounded bland and compressed on day 1. It seems to have stretched its legs properly now, and is opening up like the flowers in my Dutch garden. Soundstage has gotten bigger, there's more bass definition and depth, instrument & voice layering has gotten more distinctive while still remaining a musical whole. Initially, I didn't think the HD600 / Gustard combo was a whole lot better than the RS220. Did another A/B comparison tonight, and the HD600 sounds superior now in every way. Caspian's "Hymn for the greatest generation" sounds artificial and bland very quickly on lesser gear. It does so on the RS220, and also did on the HD600 from the sources I fed it so far. The Gustard changed that. And quality stuff like Moonstruck by Chris Jones or other Stockfish records now sound very good indeed. My fingers keep itching to turn up the volume, rather than down. Usually it's the opposite for me, when after 20 minutes of listening I get the first symptoms of listening fatigue and turn things down. Not so now. Another important yardstick of performance. For me at least. 
  
 That HE-500 cable is welcome to arrive right about... now.


----------



## lomonosoff

What power this amplifier,12V or 15V.Is it possible to put AD8610?


----------



## 406382

mark235 said:


> I have no idea how far I am on the burn in, but... there's a change with the HD600 performance... a good one... and it ain't subtle. It's not so much that I expected this to happen, I'm not a believer in burn-in and was a bit sceptic about it. I might be a convert after tonight.
> 
> The Gustard sounded bland and compressed on day 1. It seems to have stretched its legs properly now, and is opening up like the flowers in my Dutch garden. Soundstage has gotten bigger, there's more bass definition and depth, instrument & voice layering has gotten more distinctive while still remaining a musical whole. Initially, I didn't think the HD600 / Gustard combo was a whole lot better than the RS220. Did another A/B comparison tonight, and the HD600 sounds superior now in every way. Caspian's "Hymn for the greatest generation" sounds artificial and bland very quickly on lesser gear. It does so on the RS220, and also did on the HD600 from the sources I fed it so far. The Gustard changed that. And quality stuff like Moonstruck by Chris Jones or other Stockfish records now sound very good indeed. My fingers keep itching to turn up the volume, rather than down. Usually it's the opposite for me, when after 20 minutes of listening I get the first symptoms of listening fatigue and turn things down. Not so now. Another important yardstick of performance. For me at least.
> 
> That HE-500 cable is welcome to arrive right about... now.


 
  
 While my experience with burn in on the Gustard still stands, I feel compelled to share some more relevant findings I did in the last 2 days. After listening to the burned in Gustard, my mind told me it was a better amp than the Schiit Magni (1st gen) by a long stretch. The Magni sounded harsh in treble to me before, and somewhat cold in general. Well, yesterday evening I decided to give the Magni another go and do a side by side comparison with the Gustard using the HD600. I swapped amps back and forth about 10 times, cause I had a hard time understanding my findings. The Magni sounded better. More Bass, more body. The Gustard sounded thin compared. It wasn't a night and day difference, but still quite noticeable. 
  
 I am confused. What changed my opinion of the HD600 amp matches so much? Was the Magni not warmed up properly when I listened to it the first time? I wouldn't expect warmup to make such a difference. I am using the Magni with a voltage transformer. Maybe that thing needed to reach a certain saturation level, and I started playing too soon? One thing I do know is that my tonal preference does not change in a matter of weeks, so there's some variable at play here. 
  
 I'll do more comparisons when the HE-500 cable arrives. Maybe the extra power will give the Gustard an advantage there.


----------



## mylica

mark235 said:


> While my experience with burn in on the Gustard still stands, I feel compelled to share some more relevant findings I did in the last 2 days. After listening to the burned in Gustard, my mind told me it was a better amp than the Schiit Magni (1st gen) by a long stretch. The Magni sounded harsh in treble to me before, and somewhat cold in general. Well, yesterday evening I decided to give the Magni another go and do a side by side comparison with the Gustard using the HD600. I swapped amps back and forth about 10 times, cause I had a hard time understanding my findings. The Magni sounded better. More Bass, more body. The Gustard sounded thin compared. It wasn't a night and day difference, but still quite noticeable.
> 
> I am confused. What changed my opinion of the HD600 amp matches so much? Was the Magni not warmed up properly when I listened to it the first time? I wouldn't expect warmup to make such a difference. I am using the Magni with a voltage transformer. Maybe that thing needed to reach a certain saturation level, and I started playing too soon? One thing I do know is that my tonal preference does not change in a matter of weeks, so there's some variable at play here.
> 
> I'll do more comparisons when the HE-500 cable arrives. Maybe the extra power will give the Gustard an advantage there.


 
  
 What is your DAC?  But yes, that's a strange finding.  My gustard with HD600 is far from thin.


----------



## DecentLevi

@mark235 I have a suggestion: Go ahead and connect your Magni amp to the H10 amp. Yes I understand this is daisy-chaining, but I use this setup daily to my Beresford Capella amp. And the result is bar-none excellent. Everything that's 'mostly good' about the Magni is taken and preserved when it enters the Capella. Then the Capella picks up where the Magni left off, with a very realistic soundstage that extrudes deeply and with more details than I ever heard on the Magni. The connection is 3.5mm headphone-out to RCA (3.5mm to 6.5mm jack to RCA or 6.5mm to RCA; 1 normal headphone jack to 2 phono plugs), with the Magni turned up to about 75% volume. Another user does the Capella to H10 via headphone-out and he swears by it! Let us know after you try it, thanks!


----------



## DecentLevi

PS Mark - I suspect that maybe the reason your Magni 1 could seem to sound better than your H10 could be because your gain settings on the H10 may not have been up to par or the volume may not have been consistent on both, and that you may get different results trying this same experiment with different headphones.


----------



## 406382

mylica said:


> What is your DAC?  But yes, that's a strange finding.  My gustard with HD600 is far from thin.


 
  
 Schiit Modi 1
  


decentlevi said:


> @mark235 I have a suggestion: Go ahead and connect your Magni amp to the H10 amp. Yes I understand this is daisy-chaining, but I use this setup daily to my Beresford Capella amp. And the result is bar-none excellent. Everything that's 'mostly good' about the Magni is taken and preserved when it enters the Capella. Then the Capella picks up where the Magni left off, with a very realistic soundstage that extrudes deeply and with more details than I ever heard on the Magni. The connection is 3.5mm headphone-out to RCA (3.5mm to 6.5mm jack to RCA or 6.5mm to RCA; 1 normal headphone jack to 2 phono plugs), with the Magni turned up to about 75% volume. Another user does the Capella to H10 via headphone-out and he swears by it! Let us know after you try it, thanks!


 
  
 Is that safe? I'll have to find another pair of RCA cables before I can try this. 
  


decentlevi said:


> PS Mark - I suspect that maybe the reason your Magni 1 could seem to sound better than your H10 could be because your gain settings on the H10 may not have been up to par or the volume may not have been consistent on both, and that you may get different results trying this same experiment with different headphones.


 
  
 I actually thought of this while testing and increased the volume on the H10 on purpose during several of the tests when switching back to it. That way it played louder than the Magni when the music started again. This did not help the H10's performance, somewhat louder was not better in any way.


----------



## genclaymore

Are you using +6 gain settings for the HE-500 which you flip on the dip switches in the rear.


----------



## BassDigger

decentlevi said:


> @mark235 I have a suggestion: Go ahead and* connect your Magni amp to the H10 amp*. Yes I understand this is *daisy-chaining*, but I use this setup daily to my Beresford Capella amp. And the result is bar-none excellent. Everything that's 'mostly good' about the Magni is taken and preserved when it enters the Capella. Then the Capella picks up where the Magni left off, with a very realistic soundstage that extrudes deeply and with more details than I ever heard on the Magni. The connection is 3.5mm headphone-out to RCA (3.5mm to 6.5mm jack to RCA or 6.5mm to RCA; 1 normal headphone jack to 2 phono plugs), with the Magni turned up to about 75% volume. *Another user does the Capella to H10 via headphone-out and he swears by it!* Let us know after you try it, thanks!


 
  
 I'm not an expert, but maybe this points to a possible weakness, with the H10.
 Or it may not necessarily be a 'weakness' of the H10, just an inability to compensate for a possible weakness in the source component.
 I'm talking about impedance matching; the H10 may be 'fussy' about the equipment that it's connected downstream of; it may have a less than 'world class' pre-section (not really a crime, for a bargain amp!).
  
 It will be interesting to see what mark235 finds, when he can source the required cables.


----------



## mylica

bassdigger said:


> I'm not an expert, but maybe this points to a possible weakness, with the H10.
> Or it may not necessarily be a 'weakness' of the H10, just an inability to compensate for a possible weakness in the source component.
> I'm talking about impedance matching; the H10 may be 'fussy' about the equipment that it's connected downstream of; it may have a less than 'world class' pre-section (not really a crime, for a bargain amp!).
> 
> It will be interesting to see what mark235 finds, when he can source the required cables.


 
  
 Mark's finding is interesting.  H10 didn't sounds thin on my HD600.  It is the opposite.  I am using 797 and NE5532 btw


----------



## 406382

mylica said:


> What is your DAC?  But yes, that's a strange finding.  My gustard with HD600 is far from thin.


 

  
 Maybe I should be more specific. The bass and mids have a bit less body compared to the Magni. When listening to the H10 standalone thin probably wouldn't come to mind as a description, but compared to the Magni it does. I guess that says something about the size of the differences. As said, these are not big. I guess bass & midrange warmth is important to me. 
  
 Comparing the H10 and the Magni again tonight makes me realize the H10 has the upper hand in soundstage width. So I guess the Magni is better for me, but not better than the H10 in absolute terms. Some might prefer the wider soundstage of the H10 over the Magni's increased bass / warmth / authority.
  
 If there are others also owning both the Magni and H10, it would be interesting if they could also do a side by side comparison. 
  
 Quote:


genclaymore said:


> Are you using +6 gain settings for the HE-500 which you flip on the dip switches in the rear.


 
  
 I tried +6 gain with the HD600. Didn't make a difference sound quality wise, only volume range. My He-500 cable isn't in yet, so cannot compare there yet


----------



## auvgeek

mark235 said:


> Maybe I should be more specific. The bass and mids have a bit less body compared to the Magni. When listening to the H10 standalone thin probably wouldn't come to mind as a description, but compared to the Magni it does. I guess that says something about the size of the differences. As said, these are not big. I guess bass & midrange warmth is important to me.
> 
> Comparing the H10 and the Magni again tonight makes me realize the H10 has the upper hand in soundstage width. So I guess the Magni is better for me, but not better than the H10 in absolute terms. Some might prefer the wider soundstage of the H10 over the Magni's increased bass / warmth / authority.
> 
> If there are others also owning both the Magni and H10, it would be interesting if they could also do a side by side comparison.


 
 The bass is the main areas I wish the H10 were a bit better, too. BUT I really think you ought to be 100% sure your unit is fully burned-in. I noticed a substantial change in the bass long after I assumed the burn-in period was over. I would say the way you're describing the sound (thin) is exactly how it sounds before it's fully burned in.


----------



## mylica

mark235 said:


> I tried +6 gain with the HD600. Didn't make a difference sound quality wise, only volume range. My He-500 cable isn't in yet, so cannot compare there yet


 
  
 This is my finding, which I guess will match your finding.  My other amp, has more mid and bass compare to H10 but it sounds the bass is not well control feel bloated at times hence giving warmer sounds feels.  on H10, the bass is well controlled, tight no more bloated bass hence feel less warmer sounding and the vocal feels one step behind which is good for me.  Using +6 for my HD600 and opamp 797 give the warm feeling back and better bass.  Vocal is thicker too.
  
 Try change the opamp, it is cheap (less than 15 USD)
  
 The difference using 0 gain and +6 gain is obvious in my case.  Not the volume change.
  
 Btw, my music 75 percent is jazz, vocal.  I cant live with an amp that sounds thin.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

To add to this gain discussion, for whatever reason the K7XXs go from unlistenable to ideal when moving the gain from 0 to 6. I have no idea why, but this was change was more conspicuous than with any of my other headphones prior to acquiring the HD800. I should probably try it on the HD800 as well.


----------



## MattTCG

liu junyuan said:


> To add to this gain discussion, for whatever reason the K7XXs go from* unlistenable to ideal* when moving the gain from 0 to 6. I have no idea why, but this was change was more conspicuous than with any of my other headphones prior to acquiring the HD800. I should probably try it on the HD800 as well.


 
  
 Wow...that's a pretty bold statement.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

matttcg said:


> Wow...that's a pretty bold statement.




Black and white. From flat to full, discordant to coherent. I went back and forth over and over again. 

Would love to see if other K7XX owners echo my impression. This's was with Gungnir as a source btw, which I do not own anymore.


----------



## DecentLevi

mark235 said:


> _(regarding connecting the Magni amp to the H10 amp via headphone-out to RCA cable)_
> 
> Is that safe? I'll have to find another pair of RCA cables before I can try this.


 
  
 Yes, I'm sure it's safe to connect the Magni to the H10 via headphone-out to RCA. I have been doing the Mani to Capella amp for about a month now, and the Capella designer even told me it's safe as long as I don't set the volume to clipping levels. It's giving me a very detailed, full bodied sound with good soundstage like one amp times two should be 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Here is a posting from another user about his similar pairing. It's with the Capella to H10 amp, but I think it has a similar output level as the Magni:
  
_"Alright, I made it work and it does sound better. Connection is Capella 1/4 jack to H10 RCA. _
_All relative but: bass is tighter and sub-bass is much stronger. Much more detail extraction, more organic sounding (especially vocals!), more dynamic, soundstage is holographic, much more expansive._
_I set the volume on max on the H10 and the gain is on stock/default. Capella's gain is anywhere between 50% to 75% and the volume knob between 25% to 75% to avoid the H10 clipping, distorting or a schitty signal. This technically won't cause any problems from what I've found (explained in the next paragraph). The issues I was hearing in channel balance, intermittent signal loss are heard when the Capella's gain knob isn't higher than 25% or if the H10 isn't at max volume. When the Capella's gain is lower than 25%, the signal becomes a distorted mess because of the insufficient current to the H10._
  
_I researched this a bit more and the output voltage of the source/preamp needs to be higher than the input sensitivity on the power amp, which is +6dBu (1.5V rms) on the Gustard H10, and the Capella's volume control and gain needs to be set at a level that won't clip the H10's signal due to more current than its input can take. If I ever need more gain (which is unlikely to say the least) I can just set the H10 at a higher setting. _
_The Capella's output impedance is also ideal for a preamp at 1K ohm (from the line out) driving a 68K ohm input impedance on the H10. Using the headphone out though, it goes down to 0.5 ohms technically, so I figure this would be even better to drive the H10 (quote from source: As a general rule, the *lower* the output impedance is, the better it will drive difficult loads). _
_summary source for all of this (I've also seen these concepts mentioned/explained in multiple other places): http://www.decware.com/paper55.htm "_
  
 You can get a decent 3.5mm to RCA cable from Monoprice on the cheap, or get a full audiophile grade cable from Audioquest Evergreen at not a bad price (the one I'm happily using).


----------



## BassDigger

I await Mark's findings, but it's starting to look like the H10's performance is very source dependant; it could sound very different, on different DACs, purely because of the differing specs of the dacs output section.
  
 It seems that maybe, for many, the use of an in-line buffer (such as a tube buffer) would be beneficial. This is what, in essence, the daisy-chaining of equipment is mimicking.
  
 Of course, the best solution is to make sure that you have a DAC with a suitable output stage.


----------



## Noodlz

Just wanted to chime in~ I got my HE560's over the weekend and my HD800 today.
  
 For the HD800s as far as gains go, i definitely prefer it at +6 instead of at 0. As @Liu Junyuan describes, it goes from a black & white, very dry-neutral ish sound on 0 gain, to a bright, slightly golden shimmering (think of golden flakes) that adds more weight and fluidity to the mids (making it a little more forward), and also brightening up / expanding the soundstage / frequency response overall. So far i am very very happy with the way it sounds. Though i still prefer my LCD2's and also the LCD3's that i heard recently to both of these when paired with the H10.
  
 That bring me to thinking about the HE560s. I thought they sounded very very refined, it's very neutral, musical, fluid and all. It's overall a very very nice pair of cans, one of the best i have heard so far actually. However it's also very recoridng dependent. on some great recordings it can sound pretty holographic, whereas on others it can sound kinda "flat". The LCD 2.2 & LCD3's ive tried just seems to make everything i listen to "magical" (whereas the he-560 is only "magical" when the recording is good).
  
 I'm debating on whether or not i should try to do the jerg 1.5 mods to the HE560s to get the sound that people on this thread have been raving about. Either that or i may just end up selling both the 560's and the HD800s, and using that to buy myself the LCD3s. Any one had experience comparing the 3's vs the modded HE560s vs HD800s on the H10?


----------



## 406382

bassdigger said:


> I'm not an expert, but maybe this points to a possible weakness, with the H10.
> Or it may not necessarily be a 'weakness' of the H10, just an inability to compensate for a possible weakness in the source component.


 

  
 Perhaps. The Modi is no world class source, but seems to do a pretty good job for the money. 
  


bassdigger said:


> I'm talking about impedance matching; the H10 may be 'fussy' about the equipment that it's connected downstream of; it may have a less than 'world class' pre-section (not really a crime, for a bargain amp!).
> 
> It will be interesting to see what mark235 finds, when he can source the required cables.


 
  
  
 We'll see how the 50 Ohm HE-500 does compared to the 300 Ohm HD600, and what the daisy chaining does.
  
  




auvgeek said:


> The bass is the main areas I wish the H10 were a bit better, too. BUT I really think you ought to be 100% sure your unit is fully burned-in. I noticed a substantial change in the bass long after I assumed the burn-in period was over. I would say the way you're describing the sound (thin) is exactly how it sounds before it's fully burned in.


 
  
 True. I did an estimate on the burn-in time yesterday, and it should be somewhere between 40 and 60 hours. I'm going to continue burn-in for 72 more hours non-stop, and then try again. 
  
  


mylica said:


> This is my finding, which I guess will match your finding.  My other amp, has more mid and bass compare to H10 but it sounds the bass is not well control feel bloated at times hence giving warmer sounds feels.  on H10, the bass is well controlled, tight no more bloated bass hence feel less warmer sounding and the vocal feels one step behind which is good for me.  Using +6 for my HD600 and opamp 797 give the warm feeling back and better bass.  Vocal is thicker too.
> 
> Try change the opamp, it is cheap (less than 15 USD)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good point. The bass on the Magni is indeed more "bloomy" compared to the H10, but I don't have the feeling that the Magni has less control. When I crank the volume up to 70 percent on the HD600 the driver excursion becomes quite noticeable but everything stays well in control. BTW, I don't recommend that listening level for more than 10 seconds, if at all.
  
 Once the H10 is guaranteed of a full burn in, I'll look at the opamp change.
  
 Do you turn down the volume pot a bit before testing out the +6 gain setting? If not, are you sure the extra volume isn't giving the impression of better SQ?


----------



## BassDigger

mark235 said:


> We'll see how the 50 Ohm HE-500 does compared to the 300 Ohm HD600, and what the daisy chaining does.


 
  
 I'm referring to the impedance of the line level RCA (or balanced) input to the amp. The DAC, or whatever you have connected, must match well with the H10. That's what the daisy-chaining is (possibly) helping with.
 The impedance of the headphones, attached to the hp output of the H10, is irrelevant, or at least a different matter entirely; by all accounts, the H10 matches (even) better with low impedance phones (such as the he500), But that's got nothing to do with whatever may be going on at the input end of the H10.
  
 What others, such as Decentlevi, may be finding, is that another headphone output (feeding the H10 line-level RCA inputs), rather than a normal line-level (dac) output, is providing the more robust input signal that the H10 needs (you just have to be careful not to 'overdrive' it).
  
 Enjoy experimenting with your new he500s, but remember that their impedance isn't related to the dacs (or daisy-chains) impedance.


----------



## jazzwave

moriez said:


> Analog Devices and I'm quite sure other manufacturers ship up to two samples of certain op-amps for free. The AD797ANZ is one of them. The AD823ANZ on the other hand is not without cost.


 
  
 How many AD797ANZ for H10?
 I'm  planning to buy this item , any recomended eBay seller who sell AD797ANZ?
  
 ~ron~


----------



## 406382

decentlevi said:


> Yes, I'm sure it's safe to connect the Magni to the H10 via headphone-out to RCA. I have been doing the Mani to Capella amp for about a month now, and the Capella designer even told me it's safe as long as I don't set the volume to clipping levels. It's giving me a very detailed, full bodied sound with good soundstage like one amp times two should be
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok, thanks. I was going to ask whether the primary or secondary amp's volume needed to be maxed out or not, but that is now clear. 
  
 I doubt Monoprice ships to Europe, but there's enough budget alternatives.


----------



## 406382

bassdigger said:


> I'm referring to the impedance of the line level RCA (or balanced) input to the amp. The DAC, or whatever you have connected, must match well with the H10. That's what the daisy-chaining is (possibly) helping with.
> The impedance of the headphones, attached to the hp output of the H10, is irrelevant, or at least a different matter entirely; by all accounts, the H10 matches (even) better with low impedance phones (such as the he500), But that's got nothing to do with whatever may be going on at the input end of the H10.
> 
> What others, such as Decentlevi, may be finding, is that another headphone output (feeding the H10 line-level RCA inputs), rather than a normal line-level (dac) output, is providing the more robust input signal that the H10 needs (you just have to be careful not to 'overdrive' it).
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for explaining, I now understand your comment on the DAC matching better.


----------



## mylica

jazzwave said:


> How many AD797ANZ for H10?
> I'm  planning to buy this item , any recomended eBay seller who sell AD797ANZ?
> 
> ~ron~


 

 You would need two.
  
 Where are u from Jazz? 
  
 I buy from http://www.rs-components.com/index.html
  
 See if your country is part of the coverage


----------



## moriez

> Originally Posted by *jazzwave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> How many AD797ANZ for H10?
> I'm  planning to buy this item , any recomended eBay seller who sell AD797ANZ?
> ...


 
  
 Two is what I've read Ron. Haven't installed them yet so can't tell from own experience.
  


mylica said:


> I buy from http://www.rs-components.com/index.html
> 
> See if your country is part of the coverage


 
  
 But guys, why buy if you can get them for free and without a doubt authentic ones by directly contacting Analog Devices? Here's the page *[click]*. Just hit ''Sample'' and take it away. Or is your country excluded?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

I just wanted to follow up on my post yesterday evening to avoid confusing readers. The seemingly hyperbolic statement concerning gain _*only held true for me with the AKGs. *_The other headphones I tried were much less noticeably sensitive, although jumping to +12 sounded almost too aggressive, forward on the HD650 and HE-500. This conspicuous shift is probably because AKGs are extremely picky of upstream gear (like the HD800s), but unlike the HD800s, they thrive on current rather than voltage (which makes them an ideal pairing with the H10).


----------



## blasjw

moriez said:


> Two is what I've read Ron. Haven't installed them yet so can't tell from own experience.
> 
> 
> But guys, why buy if you can get them for free and without a doubt authentic ones by directly contacting Analog Devices? Here's the page *[click]*. Just hit ''Sample'' and take it away. Or is your country excluded?


 
 They require a business e-mail address.


----------



## blasjw

jazzwave said:


> How many AD797ANZ for H10?
> I'm  planning to buy this item , any recomended eBay seller who sell AD797ANZ?
> 
> ~ron~


 
  
 www.mouser.com
 www.newark.com
 www.digi-key.com
 www.partsconnexion.com


----------



## moriez

blasjw said:


> They require a business e-mail address.


 
  
 I didn't. Personal e-mail address did the trick. Nice open communication with their support too.


----------



## blasjw

moriez said:


> I didn't. Personal e-mail address did the trick. Nice open communication with their support too.


 
 Looks like U.S. requires it.


----------



## jazzwave

Ok, I will order from Partconnexion
  
 AD797AN and AD797ANZ has similiar spec , right?
  
 Here what I see in PartConnexion site


----------



## natemact

Yep they are the same, they've just omitted the z. You'd do well to grab 2x lme49720na or 2x lme49860na (pic shows SOIC version instead, wrong pic right part) for your H10 as well when placing your order for the 797's. Unfortunately they don't have a whole lot to chose from for 5532 replacements. Surprisingly though they only charged me $.81 for shipping (yes that's cents) compared to the $20 Mouser and Digikey want.

I think I'm gonna try some lme49990's (2 mounted to an adapter, 4 in total) in the i/v stage as well as a couple of lme49720ha's (metal cans), won't be buying the metal cans from Parts Connexion though as their price is silly at $27 each (even with their $1 shipping still more than the competition). Looking at grabbing a couple of ad797brz too, mounting them on adapters and comparing them to the grade A 797's. From what I've read the B grade is noticeably better performing.


----------



## jazzwave

Order placed
 Cost : $27 for two including tax
  
 ~ron~


----------



## ansi

moriez said:


> Very informative and down to earth read. I've asked @ansi to try and get ''Mr.Gustard's'' opinion on how other op-amps behave in the H10 circuitry. Should be interesting.


 
  
 So, the original design uses two dual op amps which are 5532, and two single which are 134. Gustard recommends sticking with 5532 and 5534 when you swamp them out.  
  
 Edit: Oh and there is a discontinued brand that you can recognize by a big S. In China we just call it "big S". Those are a supposed to be a good fit. Cheap too, couple of bucks in here at least.


----------



## moriez

Thanks for the feedback ansi!
  
 Did he say anything specifically about the behavior or effects of other op-amps? That's what I'd like to know. Could you ask him if he didn't?


----------



## ansi

moriez said:


> Thanks for the feedback ansi!
> 
> Did he say anything specifically about the behavior or effects of other op-amps? That's what I'd like to know. Could you ask him if he didn't?


 
  
 He said he can tell you what works well, which is 5532 and 5534, but it's hard to say about stuff that the amp is not designed around. You really just need to try.


----------



## mylica

ansi said:


> He said he can tell you what works well, which is 5532 and 5534, but it's hard to say about stuff that the amp is not designed around. You really just need to try.


 
 This is what works well for me.
  
 Single channel - using AD797
 Dual channel - using 5532 ( more detail compare to 2604) or opa2604 (smooth warm sounding)
  
 Thanks


----------



## DDDamian

Curious on other recommendations for a slightly brighter, highly detailed sound?


----------



## 406382

decentlevi said:


> Yes, I'm sure it's safe to connect the Magni to the H10 via headphone-out to RCA. I have been doing the Mani to Capella amp for about a month now, and the Capella designer even told me it's safe as long as I don't set the volume to clipping levels. It's giving me a very detailed, full bodied sound with good soundstage like one amp times two should be
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Monoprice-ish jack to RCA cable arrived today, I hooked it up the way described above. Must admit setting the H10 volume to max felt a bit uncomfortable. 
  
 Unfortunately I cannot discern any noticeable difference with the Magni + H10 vs the H10 by itself. When I swap between the 2 amps in standalone configuration the differences can be heard again. Again, these are characteristics that stand out when comparing the 2, don't take them as absolute:
  
 Magni: warmer mids and bloomier low end. More condensed, narrower soundstage
 H10: wider soundstage but less prominent centerstage (sounds like the lead singer took a couple steps backward on stage), more neutral mids and lows
  
 I think the Schiit sound might just be more for me. I'll wait what the HE-500 does on both amps. If it's the same story, I'm definitely selling the H10 for an Asgard 2


----------



## Jhya

mark235 said:


> H10: wider soundstage but less prominent centerstage (sounds like the lead singer took a couple steps backward on stage), more neutral mids and lows


 
  
 Your description seems right on with my own impression of the stock H10 sound. The sound feels very warm/soft as if the singer is a few steps farther away, although the soundstage is wide and very detailed.
  


dddamian said:


> Curious on other recommendations for a slightly brighter, highly detailed sound?


 
  
 I just swapped in the MUSES02 opamp to replace the stock 5532. Wow, the first thing I noticed immediately is that the music comes right at you! The warmness/softness is now gone and all the details are crystal clear as if you are right in front of the stage. Bass dynamics has also dramatically improved with more impact and punches. The sound signature I would describe as brighter and much more transparent than stock 5532, I had to turn down the volume a tiny bit as listening to my previous level causes slight fatigue.
  
 I will replace the stock 134 with AD797BRZ once the adapters arrive from Thailand. I'm hoping the AD797BRZ will tone down the brightness of the MUSES02 slightly as some people describe the 797 as dark sounding.


----------



## DDDamian

jhya said:


> Your description seems right on with my own impression of the stock H10 sound. The sound feels very warm/soft as if the singer is a few steps farther away, although the soundstage is wide and very detailed.
> 
> 
> I just swapped in the MUSES02 opamp to replace the stock 5532. Wow, the first thing I noticed immediately is that the music comes right at you! The warmness/softness is now gone and all the details are crystal clear as if you are right in front of the stage. Bass dynamics has also dramatically improved with more impact and punches. The sound signature I would describe as brighter and much more transparent than stock 5532, I had to turn down the volume a tiny bit as listening to my previous level causes slight fatigue.
> ...


 
 Thank you sir! That is exactly what I was looking to hear. I have a few to roll, and currently have the AD797BRZ in which is a tad warm for my taste (listening on LCD2.2c's so go figure). Will throw the MUSES02 in for a spin. Cheers for the insights!


----------



## DecentLevi

@mark235, from what I can tell it would really be worth it in the long-run to hold onto your H10 amp. It looks like with op-amp rolling you should be able to customize the sound of this amp to your liking. And you just may run-across another headphone that has better synergy with the H10 later, as I'm sure you know that some 'cans match better with amps than others. Take for example the posts above on the op-amps, if you're bold enough to open it up and start popping in different circuits in there.


----------



## Noodlz

Question for H10 + HD800 owners here who have another Amp/Dac setup (perhaps higher end). Does the HD800 scale much better when getting the more expensive 1K+ amps?
  
 I'm listening to my recently acquired HD800 with my H10, and although they do sound great my curiousity is getting the best of me, and i'm wondering if it'll sound much better if I upgraded my DAC/AMP setup. I'm currently using a Yulong D200 > Gustard H10 > HD800. Would something like a Aurelic Taurus mkII make this thing sing angelic sounds to me? =) or would a bottlehead crack with speedball work better? How much improvement (if any) would they have over the H10? Would love to know this~


----------



## BassDigger

mark235 said:


> The Monoprice-ish jack to RCA cable arrived today, I hooked it up the way described above. Must admit setting the H10 volume to max felt a bit uncomfortable.
> 
> Unfortunately I cannot discern any noticeable difference with the Magni + H10 vs the H10 by itself. When I swap between the 2 amps in standalone configuration the differences can be heard again. Again, these are characteristics that stand out when comparing the 2, don't take them as absolute:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok, so it's starting to look like the impedance matching theory may be a load of hot air.
  
 But, let's not give up just yet; you've bought the cable, after all.
  
 Firstly, of course, you're right to be uncomfortable with cranking the volume knob to the max. Keep that feeling; it's healthy (for your audio). I've always had the habit of returning the volume knob to zero, especially when switching on (and off).
 The other thing to remember is that different tracks/albums can be mastered at totally different volumes; some are literally twice as loud (that's 10x the electrical energy) of others! Consider this, when playing with volume settings, especially when changing material.
  
 Now let's make some adjustments to your testing method: instead of setting the H10 volume to the max, set it to what you think is a more normal position; say the 10 O'clock setting. This means that to get a normal 'loudness' (in your headphones) the 'buffer' amp (that's feeding the H10) needs to pump more juice into the H10's RCA input. This is what we want. (Obviously, this means increasing the buffer amp volume setting. Do this gradually!)
  
 Whilst doing this, you can experiment with different settings; more volume on the buffer, less on the H10, or vica versa. But, be careful not to overdrive the H10 input. You should hear this, if it starts to happen; it will maybe sound like typical 'volume too loud' distortion. Except that it could happen at what sounds to you like very low listening levels. If you hear this, reduce the buffer amp's volume and increase the H10's vol, to compensate.
  
 The reason that I'm suggesting this change of method is simply if the H10's pre (input) section is 'fussy', and needs a more robust signal feeding it, having the H10's volume at the max means that the input signal will have to be weaker than normal. This puts it at a disadvantage.
  
 Of course, totally the opposite could be true, for other users; the 'buffer amp' could be doing the job of attenuating the input signal, because the signal directly from their dac is too strong.
 Or it could be another more complex (beyond my understanding) issue. But let's try some adjustments, anyway.
  
 Regarding your future with the H10, now that you've got the he500, you may well be doing some reconsideration; there are several users, around here, who think that the H10-HE500 combi is a 'match made in heaven'! (And incidentally, more than one of them finds that other amps match better with their Sennheisers).


----------



## DDDamian

noodlz said:


> Question for H10 + HD800 owners here who have another Amp/Dac setup (perhaps higher end). Does the HD800 scale much better when getting the more expensive 1K+ amps?
> 
> I'm listening to my recently acquired HD800 with my H10, and although they do sound great my curiousity is getting the best of me, and i'm wondering if it'll sound much better if I upgraded my DAC/AMP setup. I'm currently using a Yulong D200 > Gustard H10 > HD800. Would something like a Aurelic Taurus mkII make this thing sing angelic sounds to me? =) or would a bottlehead crack with speedball work better? How much improvement (if any) would they have over the H10? Would love to know this~


 
 I can tell you that the Crack + Speedball and a good tube choice sounds incredible with the 650's, better than the H-10 with that pairing. I'm told the 800 goes beautifully with it too. Hope I'll be able to confirm directly soon - I'm looking for some 800's.
  
 I found the 650 and H-10 a bad pairing - too warm and smooth together, whereas I quite like the H-10 with my HE-400's and LCD2.2c's.


----------



## Noodlz

dddamian said:


> I can tell you that the Crack + Speedball and a good tube choice sounds incredible with the 650's, better than the H-10 with that pairing. I'm told the 800 goes beautifully with it too. Hope I'll be able to confirm directly soon - I'm looking for some 800's.
> 
> I found the 650 and H-10 a bad pairing - too warm and smooth together, whereas I quite like the H-10 with my HE-400's and LCD2.2c's.


 
 Ah thanks for the tip. I actually just got around to plugging in the HD800s with my Indeed G2 + RCA blacktop tubes that i had almost forgotten about. HOLY CRAP. These headphones sound amazing.
  
 I think i'll keep the H10's to power my LCD 2.2 (and maybe 3 when i get to it). But with tubes the HD800s is completely transformed. Now i know what people are talking when they said the soundstage is massive. Need to get my hands on a crack + speedball now ~ I can only imagine what these may sound like on the more expensive tube amps


----------



## SodaBoy

A lot of people seem to love their tubes with the HD800, I'm a solid state guy though. Unfortunately I didn't quite win the jackpot with my HD800. Looked at the diffuse field graph, and I got a big 6khz hump. You ever requested your graph Noodlz?


----------



## Noodlz

Ah actually i did not. i just got my hd800 from a trade recently. I wasn't even thinking about it actually, was totally in love in with my LCD's lol. I guess i'd have to reach out to sennheiser at some point to see the graph. Right now though i may not actually get that lcd3, might opt for a nicer tube amp instead~ maybe that duo mono continental portable tube amp i saw at can jam~ 
  
 (Sorry if i'm going too OT) To bring things back, I wonder if if theres something i can do to get a similar performance out of my H10s. maybe i'll play with different gains? or maybe these cans just pair better with tubes


----------



## SodaBoy

Tubes can be a good experience, and rolling tubes is like a hobby in itself. With the H10 itself, there were some guys rolling op amps a few pages back, should be a simple drop in type of thing, no soldering required. And about the graph, you can register second hand stuff with Senn at http://en-de.sennheiser.com/service-support/services/register-your-product, and you get a graph by email like two days later. I'm just gonna send my HD800s for professional measurement and eq calibration, that way I can just live with whatever gear I have without messing around.


----------



## Noodlz

Ooo nice. just registered. Didn't know it was that simple. Thanks! I've still got to try opamp rolling at some point~ Though i really like the way the H10 sounds with my LCD 2's right now. From what I remember some people are saying that the op amps bring out the mids out more (Muse02 i think?) and make it more detailed. I wish there was a thread or sticky dedicated to op-amps to make it easier to follow for people~


----------



## genclaymore

noodlz said:


> Ooo nice. just registered. Didn't know it was that simple. Thanks! I've still got to try opamp rolling at some point~ Though i really like the way the H10 sounds with my LCD 2's right now. From what I remember some people are saying that the op amps bring out the mids out more (Muse02 i think?) and make it more detailed. I wish there was a thread or sticky dedicated to op-amps to make it easier to follow for people~


 

 There is one http://www.head-fi.org/t/432749/the-opamp-thread but not its not active atm. But should be enough info to help you.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Enid said to say hello!!!!
> Hello captain how are you? Well I hope, as all is well down here in Oz. Greetings, Swabbie Swannie.


 
 Swannie, me matey!  Glad to hear you're still kickin' it down in Oz.  I had heard rumors that Auntie Enid's passing was an elaborate hoax to free her from the bonds of audiophilia nervosa, now I know it's true!  Give her my very best regards.


----------



## DDDamian

genclaymore said:


> There is one http://www.head-fi.org/t/432749/the-opamp-thread but not its not active atm. But should be enough info to help you.


 
 Thanks for that - it is helpful but a long read. It's a very generic thread - something centered around this amp would be great to see. Perhaps someone with good experience rolling with the H-10 would be so kind, wink wink, anybody?


----------



## olek

I was running another round of elimination battles between dacs, this time DACMini, Bifrost and Modi. First I thought I was going deaf, could not hear a thing. Then reverted to my favorite "Pohjola's Daugher" track, it's first minute is very very quiet, but chock full of details - somehow sending that kind of signal to DACs and cranking volume up reveals a lot of their weaknesses. That made me hear differences again.
  
 Modi was easy to eliminate - its sound is just so obviously liquid: overall very nice, but totally lacks detail.
  
 DACMini, in-spite of using same dac chip akm4396, is totally different animal. Smooth, but high in detail. Essentially, I could not reliably tell difference between it and Bifrost (akm4399) yet. Probably its just my bad hearing. But in the process of critical listening I made another (unpleasant) discovery. It turned out that interconnect cables DO make a difference. And that difference is way larger than difference between how DACMini and Bifrost sound. I found that if one of DACs was connected by very cheap ("batteries included" type) interconnect, it would invariably (and immediately) lose the round of comparisons. Next level up were $7-$20 "sensible person" interconnects, seemingly well made, many with metal barrels. Not actually that much better sound-wise, boo-hoo (I bought so much junk). $10 Mediabridge cables, despite low price and unassuming appearance, were definitely ahead of their competition, surprisingly so. And my only cables with any level of pedigree, $60 AudioQuest G-Snake (bought on close-out years ago, never appreciated until now, actually gave one pair away 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) were delivering result so much better that I still can't believe it. Whatever DAC was getting that cable hooked to it, it was blasting doors off its competitor (sound both smooth and detailed, with depth to it).. So, why I am unhappy? Because as it turned out, cables DO make a difference, and looks like I will have to spend quite a bit in the near future on them.
  
 Anyway, H10 was a perfect test-bed for this dac/cables shoot-out. It keeps so much detail in the music, that it makes it actually easy to hear the difference in interconnects even using inexpensive SHP9500 headphones, not to mention DT880.
  
 If you have any recommendations for cables that do not break the bank (or at least, not too much), but are of decent quality (basic definition of 'good'), maybe shoot me a PM (I feel that I am wondering off-topic with with this message already). I just feel so absurd to spend hundreds of dollars on interconnects when my amp cost just $300. And no, I am not interested in debate on the subject of cables making (or not making) a difference - I was in a 'no difference, unless junk' camp, but evidence was hard to ignore, and now I am in a 'can make quite a difference' camp.
  
 Right now I have low ranks of AudioQuest and Blue Jeans LC1 on my list. Any other good value cables?
  
  
 And I apologize for bumping this thread in a dangerous direction. I swear, I am not a troll.


----------



## sunneebear

Release the anti-cable hounds!!


----------



## 406382

bassdigger said:


> Ok, so it's starting to look like the impedance matching theory may be a load of hot air.
> 
> But, let's not give up just yet; you've bought the cable, after all.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the elaborate response. I'll experiment further with the volume settings in combined mode this weekend. Tonight I was busy with the HE-500, as the Canare cable arrived today!
  
 I figured I'd let the H10 give it a go first with the gain set to +6. Well, hello bass... this headphone sure digs deep and hard compared to anything I've owned before. Very nice. As are the mids. Listening to Eva Cassidy right now, and melting away, not because of the heat. Highs could be a touch milder for my taste but I can live with them, considering the terrific performance of all other area's. After listening for an hour or so and getting used to the basic sound signature, I thought I'd see how the Magni did with the HE-500 and whether it was same story as the HD600. 
  
 Not so. The characteristics that made the Magni good with the HD600 (for me), worked against it with the HE-500. The Magni's hint of warmth in the bass and mids are too much for the HE-500 which seems to have those characteristics in abundance. The bass also seems to hit less heavy on the Magni, perhaps due to the lower power rating? H10 and HE-500 indeed look like a fine match. I'll be doing more listening to let my impressions sink in further.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

If order H10 from eBay, there will be no custom charge to Australia whatsoever, is that right?


----------



## DreamKing

fattycheesebeef said:


> If order H10 from eBay, there will be no custom charge to Australia whatsoever, is that right?


 
  
 It depends if it's sent by DHL or EMS. DHL has custom charge even if it's declared at low value (lower than the CA$200 minimum value for Canada). EMS, as far as I know, doesn't have a charge when it's priced lower than your country's minimum for chargeable value or if it's sent as a gift or equivalent. At least that's been my experience, including when I got the H10 to Canada. So check if it's sent via EMS or DHL, if the item value can be negotiated with the seller and your country's limitations on custom fees. Pollychen sent it at low value by default but with DHL, it meant I still got a custom charge.


----------



## mylica

olek said:


> I was running another round of elimination battles between dacs, this time DACMini, Bifrost and Modi. First I thought I was going deaf, could not hear a thing. Then reverted to my favorite "Pohjola's Daugher" track, it's first minute is very very quiet, but chock full of details - somehow sending that kind of signal to DACs and cranking volume up reveals a lot of their weaknesses. That made me hear differences again.
> 
> Modi was easy to eliminate - its sound is just so obviously liquid: overall very nice, but totally lacks detail.
> 
> ...


 
 Any cable that bring analoque signal impact sounds.  That is very easy to notice.  But for digital USB,  i cant find any difference till now


----------



## strreamix

Does anyone own (or have heard) both the o2+odac and the gustard h10 + mid tier dac (no more than 600$)?
  
 I am curious as to how the sounds differ, specifically in the sub-bass (below 40hz region).
 My budget is tight, but if there is a remarkable difference in sub-bass that is noted, I might as well save up.
  
 **What about running the H10 with the ODAC? Is that a route worth taking or will the ODAC bottleneck the H10?**


----------



## 406382

If I wanted to tame the high's on the Modi / H10 / HE-500 combo a bit, what would be the best way of doing it? Which change would have the most effect? Ideally, only the highs should change. Not the bass, and certainly not the mids. Current cables are a copper Canare and Pyst RCA's.
  
 - new dac
 - new H10 opamp (which one?)
 - new headphone cable or interlink
  
 I'm very happy with this combo, but tweaking the highs a bit could push things towards ecstatic.


----------



## 406382

mylica said:


> Any cable that bring analoque signal impact sounds.  That is very easy to notice.  But for digital USB,  i cant find any difference till now


 
  
 I have the same experience with cables in my stereo setup. Analog cables I usually hear a difference. Not always. USB, Optical and Coax cables? all sound the same to me. I kept my premium USB cable (Audioquest Cinnamon), but mostly because I like the solidity of the connectors, not because of SQ.


----------



## fritobugger

mark235 said:


> Thanks for the elaborate response. I'll experiment further with the volume settings in combined mode this weekend. Tonight I was busy with the HE-500, as the Canare cable arrived today!
> 
> I figured I'd let the H10 give it a go first with the gain set to +6. Well, hello bass... this headphone sure digs deep and hard compared to anything I've owned before. Very nice. As are the mids. Listening to Eva Cassidy right now, and melting away, not because of the heat. Highs could be a touch milder for my taste but I can live with them, considering the terrific performance of all other area's. After listening for an hour or so and getting used to the basic sound signature, I thought I'd see how the Magni did with the HE-500 and whether it was same story as the HD600.
> 
> Not so. The characteristics that made the Magni good with the HD600 (for me), worked against it with the HE-500. The Magni's hint of warmth in the bass and mids are too much for the HE-500 which seems to have those characteristics in abundance. The bass also seems to hit less heavy on the Magni, perhaps due to the lower power rating? H10 and HE-500 indeed look like a fine match. I'll be doing more listening to let my impressions sink in further.




I recently started using a Canare cable on my HE-500 with the H10 and am finding the high end much more present than with the braided thin wire cable from HiFiman.


----------



## 406382

fritobugger said:


> I recently started using a Canare cable on my HE-500 with the H10 and am finding the high end much more present than with the braided thin wire cable from HiFiman.


 
  
 You mean this Hifiman cable? http://www.hifiman.com/Products/?pid=175


----------



## fritobugger

mark235 said:


> You mean this Hifiman cable? http://www.hifiman.com/Products/?pid=175




Yes but with the original 1/4 inch end not that 1/8 inch end. I got a Canare cable off eBay from a guy making them in Bozeman, MT.


----------



## 406382

fritobugger said:


> Yes but with the original 1/4 inch end not that 1/8 inch end. I got a Canare cable off eBay from a guy making them in Bozeman, MT.


 
  
 I got the same cable from the same seller. Took ages to arrive in Holland but I don't think he was to blame.
  
 It sounds like copper cables aren't always forgiving then. I used Canare some years ago in my stereo setup (4S11) and that cable had pretty easy going highs.
  
 Did you notice any other differences in sound between those 2 cables?


----------



## fritobugger

mark235 said:


> I got the same cable from the same seller. Took ages to arrive in Holland but I don't think he was to blame.
> 
> It sounds like copper cables aren't always forgiving then. I used Canare some years ago in my stereo setup (4S11) and that cable had pretty easy going highs.
> 
> Did you notice any other differences in sound between those 2 cables?




Love the build quality. The coax connectors are much better than than the HiFiman cable.


----------



## BassDigger

mark235 said:


> If I wanted to tame the high's on the Modi / H10 / HE-500 combo a bit, what would be the best way of doing it? Which change would have the most effect? Ideally, only the highs should change. Not the bass, and certainly not the mids. Current cables are a copper Canare and Pyst RCA's.
> 
> - new dac
> - new H10 opamp (which one?)
> ...


 
  
 I've got a couple of things to say, just to give my 2 cents:
  
 Firstly, you've previously mentioned about your new desire to start investing in cables (even though this is going to cause some despair amongst some contributors). As you said, you've only spent $300 on your amp; it doesn't make sense to spend hundreds more on cables. I suggest that you listen to yourself. Not just because your amp was cheap; if this means that other amps are over-priced, that's nothing compared to the world of cables. My point is, do your research (I'm sure a few suggestions will come this way, soon) and just find a reasonable cable, that does the job, for each and every application. Anything beyond this, you should tread with great caution; they're just cables, even if they do make a difference; they're just cables!!!
  
 Secondly, whether you believe in burn-in, or not, (you didn't believe in cables until recently), I would suggest that you give any new equipment a good few hours of running, before you make other changes. Particularly if you're trying to modify the sound signature, when perhaps it hasn't settled and may yet change; the lower registers 'filling out' are a typical phenomenon of burn-in, whether it be cable, dac or amp. Or in other words, new stuff can sound a bit sharp or tinny, until it's been run in.
  
 I've just had another glance at your equipment list; the Modi is very definitely a 'budget' source, and I've no idea what your using to 'feed' it. By all accounts (I've never owned either) the H10 and he500 are quite respectable mid-fi equipment, and so will be somewhat revealing about what's being fed to them. I would certainly suggest that the dac be your next upgrade. It wouldn't hurt to go several notches 'up the ladder' with this upgrade!
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## 406382

bassdigger said:


> I've got a couple of things to say, just to give my 2 cents:
> 
> Firstly, you've previously mentioned about your new desire to start investing in cables (even though this is going to cause some despair amongst some contributors). As you said, you've only spent $300 on your amp; it doesn't make sense to spend hundreds more on cables. I suggest that you listen to yourself. Not just because your amp was cheap; if this means that other amps are over-priced, that's nothing compared to the world of cables. My point is, do your research (I'm sure a few suggestions will come this way, soon) and just find a reasonable cable, that does the job, for each and every application. Anything beyond this, you should tread with great caution; they're just cables, even if they do make a difference; they're just cables!!!
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I don't intend to spend more on cables than what the Canare cost me (€55 inc shipping and import costs). If another cable can supposedly help me with the highs, it'll have to be around the same price range as the Canare.    
  
 I did already believe in cables before I started my Head-fi adventure. The stereo / surround hobby did that. It was the H10 burn-in I was skeptic of. I guess I'm a believer on that subject now. For amps at least. Cable burn-in? I'm not convinced there yet. But I keep an open mind, so who knows what'll happen.    
  
 The Modi has a very budget price, it'll be interesting to discover whether it also has budget performance or not. Most reviews say otherwise. Besides the Modi, I have no experience with standalone DAC's yet, so we'll see. Perhaps I will pay Sonority Audio a visit sometime soon, to hear and compare some more of the Schiit DAC's. And bring along the H10. What am I using to feed it? USB connection straight from an HTPC, using an Audioquest Cinnamon cable.


----------



## mylica

mark235 said:


> If I wanted to tame the high's on the Modi / H10 / HE-500 combo a bit, what would be the best way of doing it? Which change would have the most effect? Ideally, only the highs should change. Not the bass, and certainly not the mids. Current cables are a copper Canare and Pyst RCA's.
> 
> - new dac
> - new H10 opamp (which one?)
> ...


 

 Try changing NE533xx opamp with OPA2604.  Or change your dac.  I like DA8


----------



## olek

@BassDigger
  
 It looks like you associated some of my confused posts with mark235. I totally agree with you on finding a reasonable cable. I pulled a number of cables around the house and found that in my setup Phoenix Gold sound very 'meh', some Belkins sound more or less like Mediabridge (not bad), and Acoustic Research Performance series (directional, blue jacket) sound is somehow comparable to AudioQuest G-Snake. Already ordered another G-Snake and Acoustic Research cable to have 2 identical 'decent' pairs, making comparing components more truthful.
  

@mark235
  
  
 What version of Modi you have? If it is original, it definitely bottlenecks performance of H10 (I have one like that). It is decent dac in its price range, but not at the level of H10.
  
  
  
 I did more of comparing Bifrost sound with DACmini sound. Not very practical now, since I do not have identical pair of 'better' cables, and with Mediabridge cables  differences become washed out, so I have to flip cables back and forth. It is quite interesting. On orchestral music, I prefer Bifrost's signature a bit - it sounds more dynamic, more aggressive, with better lows, when DACmini sounds a bit more reserved and polite. When I switched to Tori Amos, dynamics differences became unnoticeable, but another subtle effect poked through. DACmini, with better cables, scaled up and allowed Tori's voice to 'snap' into focus. Hard to explain the effect, maybe that is what is called imaging? Whatever it is, it is noticeable, less so with more 'simplistic' headphones like AD900 and SPH9500, more so with DT880 and HD650. Ah, this is also first moment in weeks where H10 outshined Crack - this 'snapping into focus' effect is more noticeable on H10 than Crack, it looks like Crack got too much character and is is not quite transparent, not with my current tubes at least. And going back to Mediabridge cable on DACmini mostly takes away this 'focusing' effect.
  
 I really enjoy this newfound 'focused' clarity of soloist's voice and find it is hard to go back to 'foggy' sound, even if difference is not all that large. And H10 is starting to steal more listening time from Crack.
  
 In my opinion Bifrost is very good fit for simpler setups with its a bit more 'dynamic' sound, but DACmini thrives in more refined environment and scales up quite nicely. Starting to understand why folks at stereophile rated DACmini absurdly high for its price range. It's slowly growing on me.


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> @BassDigger
> 
> It looks like you associated some of my confused posts with mark235....


 
  
@olek & @mark235
  
 Yeah, sorry; my bad; switching between browsing sessions on the phone and pc; got mixed up. Glad you could work it out.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

noodlz said:


> Question for H10 + HD800 owners here who have another Amp/Dac setup (perhaps higher end). Does the HD800 scale much better when getting the more expensive 1K+ amps?
> 
> I'm listening to my recently acquired HD800 with my H10, and although they do sound great my curiousity is getting the best of me, and i'm wondering if it'll sound much better if I upgraded my DAC/AMP setup. I'm currently using a Yulong D200 > Gustard H10 > HD800. Would something like a Aurelic Taurus mkII make this thing sing angelic sounds to me? =) or would a bottlehead crack with speedball work better? How much improvement (if any) would they have over the H10? Would love to know this~


 
 Hello,
  
 I own the HD800 (modded) and the H10. It's really a nice pairing, actually. I don't feel like it does anything wrong, and the slight warmth using stock opamp offsets the brightness of the HD800. But of course the HD800 is notorious for being one of the most picky headphones to amp correctly, and it will scale very high indeed. High impedance drivers sound lovely on the H10 but tend to thrive with tube amps. To answer your question about the Crack, I would think the Crack + Speedball would make more sense with the HD800; also do not ignore Valhalla 2 in the sub-500$ USD region. 
  
 Auralic Tauras mkII is an entirely different price-tier and you have a lot more options to play with. I don't want to take this thread off topic, though, so PM if you want to discuss in private.


----------



## DDDamian

liu junyuan said:


> Hello,
> 
> I own the HD800 (modded) and the H10. It's really a nice pairing, actually. I don't feel like it does anything wrong, and the slight warmth using stock opamp offsets the brightness of the HD800. But of course the HD800 is notorious for being one of the most picky headphones to amp correctly, and it will scale very high indeed. High impedance drivers sound lovely on the H10 but tend to thrive with tube amps. To answer your question about the Crack, I would think the Crack + Speedball would make more sense with the HD800; also do not ignore Valhalla 2 in the sub-500$ USD region.
> 
> Auralic Tauras mkII is an entirely different price-tier and you have a lot more options to play with. I don't want to take this thread off topic, though, so PM if you want to discuss in private.


 
 Thanks for that Liu. I am looking for a good set of used HD-800's and wondered how the balance of warm amp / brighter cans would work in this case. By all accounts (and certainly the case with my HD-650's) the OTL design is the way to go for the high-impedance Senns. The Crack is so customizable in sound signature - whether by internal mods or tube-rolling, that you can pretty well take it anywhere you want to go in overall tonality. I love my Crack + Speedball / 650 combo, and the Gustard I prefer for my current-hungry planars. It does wonders for the highs of the HE-400, and sounds great with the LCD2.2.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

dddamian said:


> Thanks for that Liu. I am looking for a good set of used HD-800's and wondered how the balance of warm amp / brighter cans would work in this case. By all accounts (and certainly the case with my HD-650's) the OTL design is the way to go for the high-impedance Senns. The Crack is so customizable in sound signature - whether by internal mods or tube-rolling, that you can pretty well take it anywhere you want to go in overall tonality. I love my Crack + Speedball / 650 combo, and the Gustard I prefer for my current-hungry planars. It does wonders for the highs of the HE-400, and sounds great with the LCD2.2.




Bingo.


----------



## Arnotts

I'll actually be getting a Valhalla 2 soon. I'll see how it compares to the H10 and the M-DAC for some of my headphones.
  
 I personally think the H10 pairs decently with the HD800's. The typical H10 sound signature is added to the headphones - a little more warmth, a well separated but slightly slower sound, a coherent but more immediate soundstage.
  
 It's definitely a good sound in the grand scheme of things, but when you spend the kind of money on audio that we do, you don't just want "it sounds good", you want something even better.
  
 I don't think the pairing is engaging enough to really give the HD800's proper musicality imo. I also think it slightly mitigates some of the HD800's strengths, which can make it more polite sounding but less resolving.
  
 The DT880's and DT250's have much better synergy with the H10, though. It'll be interesting to see how the Valhalla 2 performs with the Beyers


----------



## audiochubb

Just picked up the Gustard h10 yesterday and I'm just now getting the chance to do some critical listening(the wife just walked in so reset).  I listened for a few hours last night where I was barely conscious after a long week. I let it play all night to help burn in if that really is a thing.  Before I go in to details about what I have heard thus far let me warn you that I have very limited experience with high end gear and I am **** at physics    Please excuse me if I miss use a term to describe what I am hearing.
  
 My only other amp experience is with the schiit asgard 2 which sounds good to me me but  I wanted something  with more power for my demanding hifiman he-500 and AKG k702s(just incase i was missing something).  Here are my early impressions:
  
 Holy crap...my AKG's are going to get some more use out of them! They really improved the low end and depth of what I was hearing.  Although I noticed a nice change when I first got the asgard2 with my AKG's, they still sounded a little lame(but with a nice wide sound stage)compared to my Hifiman's.  Now when I switch back and forth I cna further appreciate the differences in what I am hearing in both head phones.  Normally I just use them for classical and sometimes Old Jazz. I think they will see more playing time across multiple genres now with my new amp!  So yes I agree so far the AKG's sound great with the Gustard.
  
 I'm going to spend more time with my 500's later today and I will be happy to post my impressions if anyone is interested. So far though the sound stage feels more open which was one of the improvements I was seeking. I'm also picking up subtle sounds or instruments that I did not notice earlier while using my asgard2. Some of this may be placebo so I will give it more listening time.


----------



## DDDamian

Congrats on the H-10, and sure, would like to hear your impressions with the HE-500. It will give them plenty of juice.


----------



## xevman

fattycheesebeef said:


> If order H10 from eBay, there will be no custom charge to Australia whatsoever, is that right?


No customs charge in my experience when I purchased from aliexpress assume you would be in the same boat.


----------



## stuartmc

audiochubb said:


> Holy crap...my AKG's are going to get some more use out of them! They really improved the low end and depth of what I was hearing.  Although I noticed a nice change when I first got the asgard2 with my AKG's, they still sounded a little lame(but with a nice wide sound stage)compared to my Hifiman's.  Now when I switch back and forth I cna further appreciate the differences in what I am hearing in both head phones.  Normally I just use them for classical and sometimes Old Jazz. I think they will see more playing time across multiple genres now with my new amp!  So yes I agree so far the AKG's sound great with the Gustard.


 
 Welcome aboard the SS. Gustard!  You're enjoying the cake right now, but I can almost guarantee that you will enjoy the frosting that comes in the next 24 to 48 hours of play time.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Swannie, me matey!  Glad to hear you're still kickin' it down in Oz.  I had heard rumors that Auntie Enid's passing was an elaborate hoax to free her from the bonds of audiophilia nervosa, now I know it's true!  Give her my very best regards.


 

 Hello Captain,
Happy 4th of July to you and all my American brothers! Forgive the delayed reply but the weather has been fine down here (approx. 50 degrees and clear and sunny) so I have been riding my motorcycle and enjoying the outdoors. Time to catch up on my correspondence.
 Auntie Enid's demise was, indeed, an elaborate hoax! Something to do with illicit liquor, the IRS and back taxes, or something.....?
 Anyway, all is well down in this part of the world and I am still enjoying my headphone hobby immensely. My go-to amp is still the H10 but I also enjoy my other stacks. Right now I am listening to a relatively unknown Chinese brand of headphone amp and dac. They are by Breeze Audio and sound much better than they have any right to, given their respective prices! I am using a pair of headphones I built myself with some drivers from Canada (recommended on the Grado modification site) and some aluminium cups of my own design turned out for me by a local engineering company and a headband and fittings sourced off flea bay and a silver cable also sourced from flea bay.
 Now I'm not sure if its placebo effect, or just dumb luck, but these headphones are probably the best headphones I own! Seriously, they sound better to me than my 400i's, HD650's, T90's as well as my Q701's. They sound great with all genres of music and have a clarity that has to be heard to be believed. I can listen to these things for hours with no ear fatigue at all. I love them and will probably replicate them at some point with some cosmetic modifications like anodised cups and a nice braided cable, or better yet, a balanced cable setup. That might be quite something. A project for the future. By the way, they sound great with the H10 also. (Must stay on topic).
 So, my friend and captain, have a grand holiday and enjoy the BBQ, apple pie and fireworks. Cheers from "Down Under".


----------



## mylica

swannie007 said:


> Hello Captain,
> Happy 4th of July to you and all my American brothers! Forgive the delayed reply but the weather has been fine down here (approx. 50 degrees and clear and sunny) so I have been riding my motorcycle and enjoying the outdoors. Time to catch up on my correspondence.
> Auntie Enid's demise was, indeed, an elaborate hoax! Something to do with illicit liquor, the IRS and back taxes, or something.....?
> Anyway, all is well down in this part of the world and I am still enjoying my headphone hobby immensely. My go-to amp is still the H10 but I also enjoy my other stacks. Right now I am listening to a relatively unknown Chinese brand of headphone amp and dac. They are by Breeze Audio and sound much better than they have any right to, given their respective prices! I am using a pair of headphones I built myself with some drivers from Canada (recommended on the Grado modification site) and some aluminium cups of my own design turned out for me by a local engineering company and a headband and fittings sourced off flea bay and a silver cable also sourced from flea bay.
> ...


 
  
 Thats interesting.  Picture pls.


----------



## 406382

xevman said:


> No customs charge in my experience when I purchased from aliexpress assume you would be in the same boat.


 
  
 My H10 was declared with low value by Pollychen but I still got a higher than expected customs charge. Shipped through DHL


----------



## swannie007

mylica said:


> Thats interesting.  Picture pls.


 

 Give me a day or so as I am not too great at putting photos up on the net but I will try when I have a little time as it is a frustrating experience every time I try to do it. Cheers.
 By the way, do you want photos of the headphones or the amp/dac combo?


----------



## swannie007

As asked, a few photos of my self-made headphones as well as the Breeze Audio gear on my desk.
Not about to apologise for the photos as many others do. Used my camera to post quickly. Cheers. Click to enlarge.


----------



## Arnotts

@Liu Junyuan
 Which mods have you done to your HD800's - Anax 2.0?
  
 Also, how does your tube amp compare to the H10 for the HD800's - do you switch between them or do you have a clear preference?
  
 My HD800's are stock and I find that the H10 pairing moves their sound in the direction of the Audeze house sound, but without many of the strengths of the planars. Still very serviceable, but not ideal for the picky HD800's.
  
 EDIT: Great pictures, Swannie. I've been a little curious myself about the Grado/Alessandro type headphones. I don't think I'm ready to build my own headphones, though


----------



## fattycheesebeef

Any news on H20?


----------



## swannie007

arnotts said:


> @Liu Junyuan
> Which mods have you done to your HD800's - Anax 2.0?
> 
> Also, how does your tube amp compare to the H10 for the HD800's - do you switch between them or do you have a clear preference?
> ...


 
 Not that difficult really if you have good soldering skills. Sourcing the parts was the hardest part for me but well worth the effort. By the way, the only Grado parts in the whole thing are the metal strap inside the headband and the ear pads, the rest is self manufactured and after-market. I am well pleased with the resulting sound. Thanks for your interest. Cheers.


----------



## Robert777

Hey Gustard H10 owners,
  
 I have a question relating to the AC115V/230V international voltage input.
  
 Do you know if this is user selectable or if it has to be set at the factory?
  
 Cheers.


----------



## DDDamian

robert777 said:


> Hey Gustard H10 owners,
> 
> I have a question relating to the AC115V/230V international voltage input.
> 
> ...


 
 There are readily accessible jumpers inside the unit. I would double-check they are set correctly before the first power-up to be safe.


----------



## Robert777

dddamian said:


> There are readily accessible jumpers inside the unit. I would double-check they are set correctly before the first power-up to be safe.


 
 Fantastic. Thank you.


----------



## mylica

swannie007 said:


> As asked, a few photos of my self-made headphones as well as the Breeze Audio gear on my desk.
> Not about to apologise for the photos as many others do. Used my camera to post quickly. Cheers. Click to enlarge.


 
  
 Looks great!  Maybe we can order from you


----------



## strreamix

Well, by page 100 I was convinced.
_I will be a new proud owner of a Gustard H10 this week!_
  
 I was planning on simply going with the O2+ODAC, but the stories of low bass extension really made me jump.
  
*Question*: I am unable to afford the X12. My goal is exceptional sub-bass (40 hz and below). I will be pairing my Gustard H10 with a LCD-2 Rev 2 (non fazor). What DAC (preferably under 200$, but feel free to list anything up to 300$~) will help me achieve my goal of sub-bass extension, strength, and control.
  
 I need a DAC! Please help!


----------



## 406382

dddamian said:


> There are readily accessible jumpers inside the unit. I would double-check they are set correctly before the first power-up to be safe.


 
  
 Yes, definitely check. The voltage rating labeled on the back of the unit didn't match the internal setting when my unit arrived. The moment I switched it on, I noticed the 110v label on the back. I almost had a heart attack. Fortunately, the internal jumper setting was set to 220v, so I didn't get any rising black smoke. Looks like the seller forgot to replace the label before shipping. Sloppy IMHO.


----------



## DDDamian

strreamix said:


> Well, by page 100 I was convinced.
> _I will be a new proud owner of a Gustard H10 this week!_
> 
> I was planning on simply going with the O2+ODAC, but the stories of low bass extension really made me jump.
> ...


 
 The ODAC is supposed to be very transparant. Between that. the Gustard and the non-fazor LCD2.2 you are in for some very nice bass extension for sure. No one-note bass - you can actually follow the deepest bass guitar lines quite clearly with a bit of concentration. Nice slam when called for too


----------



## fritobugger

strreamix said:


> Well, by page 100 I was convinced.
> _I will be a new proud owner of a Gustard H10 this week!_
> 
> I was planning on simply going with the O2+ODAC, but the stories of low bass extension really made me jump.
> ...


 
 There are lots of options.  I use the SMSL M8.  Other options to consider:  Schitt Modi 2, Modi 2 Uber and Loki;  iFi Nano DSD; HRT Musicstreamer, and many more.


----------



## DecentLevi

@strreamix, a DAC is not usually the component that would give you sub-bass extension, dynamics, control, etc. Think of a DAC as simply a transparent mirror - that's what the best are designed to be like, so they can allow all that pre-existing sonic goodness to pass through. What colors your sound would first be the way the song was mastered, any EQ'ing you may have, the amp (with it's op-amps or tubes), and your headphones - while the DAC is the backbone of your system, to properly decode/present everything properly. My suggestions would be:
  
 Beresford Caiman MKII ($200). The ODAC is ancient and has the lowest review from Purrin on the thread listed below. I have owned the Modi for about a year and honestly it made only a marginal improvement on my laptop's output, yet was worse compared to my creative soundcard. If you're buying the Modi 1, it NEEDS the Wyrd USB signal enhancer for an additional $100 to make it sound up to par; otherwise you don't need that if you're getting the newest Modi 2.
  
 Other DACs to check out under $300-ish are Gustard X12, Geek Out v2, and Music Streamer HD. The best for under $750 could be the Gungnir. 
 The main DAC thread is an excellent place to get started in your quest. It can become a bit time consuming there but at least post the question there for other great suggestions too.
  
 Please search for these DACs on Head-Fi and you will find a lot of information.


----------



## Arnotts

decentlevi said:


> @strreamix, *a DAC is not usually the component that would give you sub-bass extension, dynamics, control, etc.* Think of a DAC as simply a transparent mirror - that's what the best are designed to be like, so they can allow all that pre-existing sonic goodness to pass through. What colors your sound would first be the way the song was mastered, any EQ'ing you may have, the amp (with it's op-amps or tubes), and your headphones - while the DAC is the backbone of your system, to properly decode/present everything properly. My suggestions would be:
> 
> Beresford Caiman MKII ($200). *The ODAC is ancient and has the lowest review from Purrin on the thread listed below*. I have owned the Modi for about a year and honestly it made only a marginal improvement on my laptop's output, yet was worse compared to my creative soundcard. If you're buying the Modi 1, it NEEDS the Wyrd USB signal enhancer for an additional $100 to make it sound up to par; otherwise you don't need that if you're getting the newest Modi 2.
> 
> ...


 
 Everything in your signal chain influences how you hear the final sound output. I think the DAC would almost certainly affect those characteristics.
  
 I like reading Purrin's input on stuff, but I would advise you to not get caught up in the hive-mind. The differences between DACs are subtle - the impressions that you read need to exaggerate the differences to make the distinctions clear. Many, many people can't even tell the difference between DACs because it involves the skill of being able to "actively" listen critically (as opposed to "passively" listening like most people do). Then there are people that hear "differences" that turn out to be completely in their heads 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Go for value for your DAC, imo. Either an ODAC + Wyrd or a Modi 2 Uber + Wyrd (return the Wyrd if you can't hear a difference with or without it) sounds like it will suit your needs nicely. If you see a good deal in any of the DACs that DecentLevi listed, really, I would jump on it. They'd all work just fine.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

arnotts said:


> @Liu Junyuan
> 
> Which mods have you done to your HD800's - Anax 2.0?
> 
> Also, how does your tube amp compare to the H10 for the HD800's




Correct, but I am trying stock again since my setup is slightly warmish. I tend to prefer tubes with them these days, and I agree about the possibility for certain amps compromising the HD800s strengths. Since my experience is so limited here, I can only speculate and rely on the word of others. But "at the end of the day" I think the H10 makes a nice, though not ideal, pairing for these veritable chameleons, these wild colt of headphones. People buying the HD800, or other picky headphones such as the HE-6, should know what they are getting in to if they do even the slightest bit of research--that they will require some patience and experience to tame occasionally erratic idiosyncrasies in order to maximize the tranducer's technical prowess. Fortunately, I do not think one need a fortune to make the HD800 sound good. It's just they scale, like the HE-6 or HD650s, incredibly high. One can find a wealth of information here and elsewhere regarding the topic of amping the HD800, so I will stop my reply here.


----------



## olek

It have been too quiet here for too long. Time to disrupt that with borderline off-topic post...
  
 Why, oh why I did not listen to the wise old men bantering about importance of cables? I always felt so smart, thinking that cables are just wires that either conduct electricity or not, and as long as their gauge was not too thin (creating resistance) and termination was not prone to oxidation (same thing with resistance) they were perfect for the job.
  
 Never have I been so wrong.
  
 I also thought that difference between DACs was minute. Up to half a year ago I could not really hear difference between them at all (not resolving enough equipment). Then up to 4 days ago I could hear a difference, but I would have to pick the right song, and listen, and strain, and go back and forth, and be very attentive, and I would still doubt myself in the end.
  
 Now, I packed up all my cables except one that stood out by a mile (sound wise) - humble AudioQuest G-Snake that I had for years but never appreciated. I use it now to connect DAC to amp directly, avoiding any switches/preamps etc. And difference between DACs is no longer minute. It strikes like a 2x4 in full swing. It can not be ignored.
  
 It is interesting that my order of preference in DACs got reshuffled a bit as well.
  
 HRT MusicStreamer II that I had for years, now sound the weakest, with very bloated uncontrolled strong bass, with plenty of distortion in there.Ugh. That DAC really relies on cheaper cables to filter out low frequencies and to mask out distortions. Unlistenable with my current cable of choice. Maybe cables also have synergy, and this pairing is really bad synergy?
  
 AudioEngine D1 suddenly is 'better' than HRT - its sharp cut off in low frequencies avoids the embarrassment of not doing them right.
  
 Modi keeps similar sound (reminiscent a bit of alarm clock to me now), but improves low frequencies.
  
 Bifrost (original) improves on Modi's sound, improving quality and reducing distortions all around, but still sound too stiff and not very musical. On the up site, it is the only one DAC from my collection that connects to computer is split second and starts playing immediately without fuss. Other DACs like to hesitate for couple seconds at least, and sometimes might take connect/disconnect/stop/play/find-another-usb-port to work right.
  
 Focusrite Scarlett unexpectedly jumped way up on totem pole. Surprisingly good, natural sound for its price. Very warm - not the HD650 bumpy way, warmth is DEEP here - and that 'warmth' still feels good and bass still is under good control. Musicality/soundstage is really good, detail might not be the best, but not bad either. Mind you - 'headphones out' is worthless (thin and soulless), but on the upside - this DAC got balanced outputs! It did not sound nearly as good with regular cables I fed it before, but better cable changed the impression totally. One thing I do not like in it - high mids / low treble are a bit shouty sometimes, especially with DT880 that is quite bright itself. Also, if only Focusrite did not have issues with Linux support that prevents it from being used in bit-perfect mode. Does not like my powered USB hub (poor man RF filtering). Still, for money (massdrop had it four around $100 recently), it is ridiculous value. I think I will get Wyrd to deal with its weak RF filtering and use it in secondary system.
  
 DACMini CX. King of all my DACs. If it was not for Focusrite, I would say miles away from other DACs I own. But Focusrite is in some proximity. Still, DACMini cranks up on smoothness, musicality, soundstage and imaging. And its level of detail is still about the same as Bifrost (pretty good). Seriously good DAC. Can't say same thing about its headphone out - detailed and very well controlled, but cold, clinical, analytical, probably partially because of 1-Ohm impedance mod. Soundstage and imaging are also a bit flat. Not involving. I would surely use it in a pinch, but with H10/Crack available, that 1/4 hole in DACMini might as well be a pencil sharpener  I have heard that it has some good synergy with HE-500, but can't test that theory (and I suspect H10 would still beat it easily at that pairing). It is weird how much more I like it's sound compared to Bifrost, when with 'regular' cables I really struggled to pick up the difference.
  
 H10 is the champion that allows me to hear all those things. Very revealing beast. I ended up not being happy with RCA cleartop driver tube in my Crack (it paints with bold wide strokes, good for covering up cable distortions, but not so hot when they are gone). Tried GE 5814a - no, good but obviously not it. Switched to RCA 5963 - believe it or not, it was designed for use in early COMPUTERS! And this one did the trick, similar holographic sound to H10, but with slightly boosted/revealed sub-bass, and a hint of 'tube' smoothness thrown in for a good measure. H10 sounds a bit more polite/veiled in comparison (just like HD650, but to much lesser degree), but both are highly enjoyable.
  
 I feel that after long time of having gradual 'quantity' improvements in sound, I just experienced a 'quality' shift in experiencing music. I am liking some music I never even cared for. Can't believe that it was stupid piece of wire holding me back. If your can't tell that, I can't contain my excitement.  My sleep has suffered as a result...
  
 Yawn.
  
 How do you like my sincere trolling so far?


----------



## Arnotts

I personally don't WANT to believe in cables, so I'm not interested in trying them anymore. It just adds another expense to try and reach audio "perfection" when such a thing does not exist - there are far too many uncontrolled variables (e.g. our mood), which are always changing, that influence how we perceive sound. There comes a time when I think you should be happy with "good enough", especially when all of our rigs are such massive improvements over what the Average Joe happily uses.
  
 Also, I've decided to try out some gear that some groups of people recommend for maximum "resolution" - a Schiit Valhalla 2 and Vali for both of my rigs, to go along with HD800's and HD650's. I'll keep the winners out of all my comparisons (and maybe do a short write up of the differences) and sell the losers.
  
 I get the feeling that the H10 would be the most versatile, jack-of-all-trades amp.


----------



## DDDamian

arnotts said:


> I personally don't WANT to believe in cables, so I'm not interested in trying them anymore. It just adds another expense to try and reach audio "perfection" when such a thing does not exist - there are far too many uncontrolled variables (e.g. our mood), which are always changing, that influence how we perceive sound. There comes a time when I think you should be happy with "good enough", especially when all of our rigs are such massive improvements over what the Average Joe happily uses.
> 
> Also, I've decided to try out some gear that some groups of people recommend for maximum "resolution" - a Schiit Valhalla 2 and Vali for both of my rigs, to go along with HD800's and HD650's. I'll keep the winners out of all my comparisons (and maybe do a short write up of the differences) and sell the losers.
> 
> I get the feeling that the H10 would be the most versatile, jack-of-all-trades amp.


 
 Write-ups always welcome 
  
 I found the H10 a bit too smooth/warm with my 650's, especially coming off the Crack. How do you find it?


----------



## Arnotts

dddamian said:


> Write-ups always welcome
> 
> I found the H10 a bit too smooth/warm with my 650's, especially coming off the Crack. How do you find it?


 

 I like the H10 + HD650 sound. It's pretty damn enjoyable - easy to listen to and musical. But I totally agree, it's a little bit on the slow/thick side.
  
 I think this sound is quite typical of the H10, and it's very agreeable with a lot of different headphones.
  
 The Valhalla 2 and Vali should offer different presentations for my high-ohm headphones, and I'm keen to find out which one I prefer .
  
 How do you like the HD650 + Crack compared to the LCD-2 + H10?
  
 EDIT: I should clarify, I've only had the HD650's for about a day so far, though.


----------



## DDDamian

arnotts said:


> I like the H10 + HD650 sound. It's pretty damn enjoyable - easy to listen to and musical. But I totally agree, it's a little bit on the slow/thick side.
> 
> I think this sound is quite typical of the H10, and it's very agreeable with a lot of different headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 Hard to compare - they're different animals through and through. The 650/Crack is stellar and much more lively than with the H10. The tube-rolling and mod variations are great - you can really customize the sound. I think (as do many) the pairing is excellent.
  
 I like the H10 with the LCD for much the same reasons I don't like the H10 with the 650. The H10 has a very warm sound and kinda brings down the 650 in tone, not up as it sometimes needs. With the LCD its signature works with it, and provides loads of power and good detail to the very hungry LCDs.
  
 Two great pairings - but switching the two cans on the two amps is far less so! Shows how important that synergy is.
  
 I could easily live with either one!


----------



## coastal1

Does anyone prefer the H10/650 combo to the Crack/650?  I love the Crack/650 but want a solid state amp both for sake of comparison and for future headphones.  I have the H10 arriving soon and also pre-ordered the upcoming Cavalli Liquid Crimson, so I may be better off waiting for the LC and selling/trading the H10 brand new.


----------



## olek

As far as I have seen so far, every time Crack/650 combo sound was preferred. I my case too, although I ended up shelving HD650 in favor of DT880. Which is not to say that H10/HD650 is bad pairing - far from that. But Crack/650 pairing has a bit of extra magic to its sound. From practical standpoint H10/HD650 wins of course, but I am afraid common sense declares person that buys >$300 amp for HEADPHONES as inherently impractical.


----------



## olek

arnotts said:


> I personally don't WANT to believe in cables, so I'm not interested in trying them anymore.


 
  
  
 Good for you. I did not want to believe in them either, it just happened. Picking good cables is definitely trial and error approach (unless one is willing to shell out enough to definitely overshoot the target).
  
 Trying out now some "Acoustic Research" Pro II cables that were recommended as one of best choices on budget. Yes, they are better than any of my regular cables (imaging, separation etc). No, they are not anywhere as clear as G-Snakes and they definitely make different DACs sound much more alike - there is still difference but it is not stark any more. Which is funny because build-wise, AR's are definitely much better than 'snakes' - heavy thick wires, metal screw-on connectors, can be repaired etc - they just scream 'pro'. Apparently, build quality does not equate sound quality.  I am afraid to try Blue Jeans LC-1 now, they are of very good build quality, but... is the sound good?
  
  
 Hmmm... I think I will need to repeat HD650/DT880 shoot-out to see which one benefits more from this new-found clarity... who knows what outcome will be...


----------



## Koolpep

coastal1 said:


> Does anyone prefer the H10/650 combo to the Crack/650?  I love the Crack/650 but want a solid state amp both for sake of comparison and for future headphones.  I have the H10 arriving soon and also pre-ordered the upcoming Cavalli Liquid Crimson, so I may be better off waiting for the LC and selling/trading the H10 brand new.




Hi!

I had both the H10 and the crack. I sold the H10 but only because I had a great deal on a Burson Conductor which sounds VERY similar to the H10, I A/B-ed them a lot. Decided to go with the Conductor because of the convenience. I could not decide which actually sounds better. The H10 has something very special.

However, the Crack....there is a certain extra synergy with the HD650. Plus the tube rolling that can be quite a lot of fun. The H10 though is more versatile as it somehow manages to drive all my headphones well from Planars to high impedance ones. It's a crazy good amp. 

Cheers,
K


----------



## strreamix

Anyone have any suggestions for a budget DAC (under 200$) for my setup?
  
 LCD-3 (pre-fazor)
 Gustard H10
 need dac under 200$ (strict budget) (i know it can perform much better with better dac, but this is the only option i have)
  
 will be running lossless files or 320+ from jriver, i dont use anything higher than flac usually.
  
 was probably just going to go with modi 2 uber..
  
 Thanks


----------



## Jozurr

strreamix said:


> Anyone have any suggestions for a budget DAC (under 200$) for my setup?
> 
> LCD-3 (pre-fazor)
> Gustard H10
> ...


 
  
 For $200 the best you can do is get an iDSD nano. The DAC is pretty good on it. The synergy with the H10 is good (I've not tried the nano, but the iDSD micro ($500), but both have similar burr brown dacs). You can read reviews to see how good the DAC on it is.
  
 Of course you have the standard options of a Modi or a Odac.  Both very transparent.


----------



## strreamix

jozurr said:


> For $200 the best you can do is get an iDSD nano. The DAC is pretty good on it. The synergy with the H10 is good (I've not tried the nano, but the iDSD micro ($500), but both have similar burr brown dacs). You can read reviews to see how good the DAC on it is.
> 
> Of course you have the standard options of a Modi or a Odac.  Both very transparent.


 
 Thank you for your input.
  
 You are able to bypass the amp in the idsd? as I already have the h10.
  
 Another question, what makes the iFi DSD Nano so highly regarded around here? (I've been suggested it numerous times)
 It is that it packs a lot of features in for a small price? Or does the Burr Brown chip really have the SQ of higher tier DACs?
  
 I ask this because (and forgive me if I'm misinformed here), but I don't believe I need any of these extra features.
  
 I don't need portability (this is for a desktop rig).
 I don't want a battery, I'd prefer a wall-wart.
 I don't care about DSD or DXM or any of that. I just want to play lossless PCM files.
 I don't need an integrated amplifier, brings me worry about double amping or hurting SQ.
  
 I don't like anything about the Nano. But if it has the best SQ of all the DAC's in this price range, I would still buy it.
  
 And for those in favor of the Nano, what would you say about this? ODAC vs Nano done from someone's review.
 The most important thing to me is sub-bass and this shows the Nano with a hard roll off in the sub bass region.
  
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/90236454/iFi%20vs%20Odac%20comparison.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/90236454/iFi%20iDSD%20Nano%20vs%20ODAC.pdf


----------



## Gibalok

I want to share some observation. 
  
 Now it is a at least 1 week a dont turn my system off. And it is always warm. And I msut say that it is a least 30% performance up comparing to what if you give your DAC/AMP to warm standard 30 min. And I also spent some hundred of bucks to get good balanced interconnect (harmonic technology pro silway MkIII+). Together it provides punchy, airy, open sound.. Thats just incredible!!! 
  
 H10 is a true value for money. But needs good DAC as well.


----------



## mylica

I like warm sounds.  H10 for me with HD10.  I also use Yulong DA8.  and using xlr interconnect.


----------



## Gibalok

arnotts said:


> I like the H10 + HD650 sound. It's pretty damn enjoyable - easy to listen to and musical. But I totally agree, it's a little bit on the slow/thick side.
> 
> I think this sound is quite typical of the H10, and it's very agreeable with a lot of different headphones.
> 
> ...




Dont undertand me wrong but HD650 despite it is good headphones are not a best match for H10. When i just came into HiFi i was told by some expeerinced person that acoustics and headphones should be at least 2x more expensive than amplifier.

So it works with H10. I have TH900 and He560 which i beleive dont need 3-4k$ amp and H10 just works well. 

So hd650 will be moody, meaty and slow with any headphone amplifier. I had HD650 and tried to chnage and prepare that with silver balanced cables. Its wasting of money.

So try He560 with H10. They have pretty the same sound sig (dark and smooth) but at the same time very responsive (Fast and clear)


----------



## heliosphann

Got my H10 from Massdrop!!!
  
 Too bad there's something rattling around inside the chassis. Oh and they also sent me a 205v power cord instead of a 110v. I swear every other order I get from Massdrop I have some kind of issue.  *sigh*
  
 Also I've got a question hopefully someone can help me with. I'll be using the H10 in conjunction with my Crack and my Modi 2 Uber. Besides manually switching the RCA outs on the Modi, what's a more convenient alternative I could implement? Thanks.


----------



## BassDigger

heliosphann said:


> Got my H10 from Massdrop!!!
> 
> Too bad there's something rattling around inside the chassis. Oh and they also sent me a 205v power cord instead of a 110v. I swear every other order I get from Massdrop I have some kind of issue.  *sigh*
> 
> Also I've got a question hopefully someone can help me with. I'll be using the H10 in conjunction with my Crack and my Modi 2 Uber. Besides manually switching the RCA outs on the Modi, what's a more convenient alternative I could implement? Thanks.


 
  
 Sorry; I haven't got any suggestion for your question. I just want to say that the power cord doesn't make a difference; a power cord is a power cord (unless you want to get a better quality one.)_ (I'm getting deja vue!)_
  
 Maybe, you might want to open it up and check out that rattle. You can also confirm the voltage selection, while you're in there.


----------



## genclaymore

heliosphann said:


> Got my H10 from Massdrop!!!
> 
> Too bad there's something rattling around inside the chassis. Oh and they also sent me a 205v power cord instead of a 110v. I swear every other order I get from Massdrop I have some kind of issue.  *sigh*
> 
> Also I've got a question hopefully someone can help me with. I'll be using the H10 in conjunction with my Crack and my Modi 2 Uber. Besides manually switching the RCA outs on the Modi, what's a more convenient alternative I could implement? Thanks.


 

 Pray it just one of the op-amps thats rattling around inside, as that easy to fix with a simple op-amp swap which you do in pairs. Also make the voltage switches are in the right position too while your instead. My Massdrop H10 didn't come with a power cable, I had to dig around for one. But becuase they sent you a 205 cable make sure the power switches are set to 110v, so when you get a usa cable you don't plug it in and scream in horror.


----------



## pippen99

heliosphann said:


> Got my H10 from Massdrop!!!
> 
> Too bad there's something rattling around inside the chassis. Oh and they also sent me a 205v power cord instead of a 110v. I swear every other order I get from Massdrop I have some kind of issue.  *sigh*
> 
> Also I've got a question hopefully someone can help me with. I'll be using the H10 in conjunction with my Crack and my Modi 2 Uber. Besides manually switching the RCA outs on the Modi, what's a more convenient alternative I could implement? Thanks.


 

 It's probably the screws that hold the motherboard down.  When I received mine only one screw was still attached.  This has been mentioned before by a few of us.  Apparently Gustard's attention to assembly quality control is lacking to a certain degree.


----------



## DDDamian

gibalok said:


> So hd650 will be moody, meaty and slow with any headphone amplifier. I had HD650 and tried to chnage and prepare that with silver balanced cables. Its wasting of money.


 
 I'm not sure I'd say that  With the H-10 that's my impression (albeit a bit of an overstatement). With the right amp - preferably a Crack but there are others like the Ember - they do sing. they'll never be treble-cannons - if you seek a bright can they are not for you, especially paired with a warm amp.


----------



## heliosphann

genclaymore said:


> Pray it just one of the op-amps thats rattling around inside, as that easy to fix with a simple op-amp swap which you do in pairs. Also make the voltage switches are in the right position too while your instead. My Massdrop H10 didn't come with a power cable, I had to dig around for one. But becuase they sent you a 205 cable make sure the power switches are set to 110v, so when you get a usa cable you don't plug it in and scream in horror.


 
  
  


pippen99 said:


> It's probably the screws that hold the motherboard down.  When I received mine only one screw was still attached.  This has been mentioned before by a few of us.  Apparently Gustard's attention to assembly quality control is lacking to a certain degree.


 
  
 Thanks guys. I found a spare power cable and the unit powers up (green light). However, when I hooked a source/cans up to it... NADA. 
  
 Think it's DOA. I contacted Massdrop for a replacement.


----------



## Jozurr

strreamix said:


> Thank you for your input.
> 
> You are able to bypass the amp in the idsd? as I already have the h10.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You can use the RCA on the nano to connect to the H10 bypassing the amp. (There is no risk of double amping when the nano is set to full volume, and then the nano only acts as a DAC and pre-amp. This is confirmed by iFi here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/683406/ifi-audio-nano-idsd-discussion-impression/150#post_10232645)
  
 Regarding the quality of the DAC, keeping all features aside: purely SQ wise it's also a better DAC than the Modi and Modi2U which I have heard personally (I haven't heard the nano personally but I have heard the micro, and I've read they're very similar in sound using the same burr brown chip). I haven't done a side by side comparison, but I've listened to some of the tracks I know very well on both the DACs and I remember how they sounded. What is good about the iFi? It is a very clean DAC with a tighter bass as compared to a Modi. Also, it's slightly smooth on the highs while still maintaining detail, and doesn't have a treble "glare" as described on Sabre DACs (I've used a bright Sabre myself). 
  
 Why is the nano highly regarded: There aren't many good DAC options under $200 and the iFi does nothing wrong while being better at some things mentioned above. Pack in a lot of features (even though they're useless to you), good support, proper drivers etc and you come to a highly recommended product.


----------



## Jhya

heliosphann said:


> Thanks guys. I found a spare power cable and the unit powers up (green light). However, when I hooked a source/cans up to it... NADA.
> 
> Think it's DOA. I contacted Massdrop for a replacement.


 
  
 Did you check to see if the Balanced/Unbalanced jumper is set to the correct type you are connecting to your source?


----------



## heliosphann

I did. I have an unbalanced source, so I leave the jumper on the bottom position, right?


----------



## Jhya

Try toggle both left and right channel jumpers to top position.


----------



## pippen99

heliosphann said:


> Thanks guys. I found a spare power cable and the unit powers up (green light). However, when I hooked a source/cans up to it... NADA.
> 
> Think it's DOA. I contacted Massdrop for a replacement.


 

 Check the dip switches that set balanced or unbalanced operation. There are 4 switches on each side.  The switch on the far left on each side controls this aspect.  If they are not set to the correct position for how you have your dac connected you will get little or nothing out. edit: guess I was late to that problem!


----------



## heliosphann

jhya said:


> Try toggle both left and right channel jumpers to top position.


 
  
  


pippen99 said:


> Check the dip switches that set balanced or unbalanced operation. There are 4 switches on each side.  The switch on the far left on each side controls this aspect.  If they are not set to the correct position for how you have your dac connected you will get little or nothing out. edit: guess I was late to that problem!


 
  
 Thanks guys. I tried the balanced/unbalanced switch in both positions. Nothing.


----------



## MrMoose0987

heliosphann said:


> Got my H10 from Massdrop!!!
> 
> Too bad there's something rattling around inside the chassis. Oh and they also sent me a 205v power cord instead of a 110v. I swear every other order I get from Massdrop I have some kind of issue.  *sigh*
> 
> Also I've got a question hopefully someone can help me with. I'll be using the H10 in conjunction with my Crack and my Modi 2 Uber. Besides manually switching the RCA outs on the Modi, what's a more convenient alternative I could implement? Thanks.


 
 I got a 250v cord with mine too. Thankfully, I had a 110v laying around that works fine. Mine was marked as 115 on the package too, so maybe they made this mistake for a bunch of people?

 Though I'm definitely not enjoying the HD650 with these. Seems to make it a bit more muddy than it was with my Magni. Vocals, especially female, seem way more muted. The only phone I've liked so far with this has been the T90 -- it seems to bring them down a bit. Maybe I just need to give the amp some time. Give the K7xx another listen too. 

 So far, I've found that -12 gain with the volume set around 11 o clock - 12 o clock produces better results than +6 or +12 with the volume around 8 o clock.


----------



## olek

It is not fair to criticize H10 until it had at least 75 hours on it. Yes, sound is muddy during those first ~75 hours, not a bit, but a lot. That is to be expected from it. But it does get better. Much so. Just have patience.
  
 I think it pairs fine with HD650 when burn-in is over. Not as great as Crack+Speedball though. My primary complain with this pairing is not enough sub-bass and slightly over-pronounced mid-bass hump. But I am not a fan of HD650 sound signature and prefer brightness of DT880 (with real lows to match).


----------



## MrMoose0987

olek said:


> It is not fair to criticize H10 until it had at least 75 hours on it. Yes, sound is muddy during those first ~75 hours, not a bit, but a lot. That is to be expected from it. But it does get better. Much so. Just have patience.
> 
> I think it pairs fine with HD650 when burn-in is over. Not as great as Crack+Speedball though. My primary complain with this pairing is not enough sub-bass and slightly over-pronounced mid-bass hump. But I am not a fan of HD650 sound signature and prefer brightness of DT880 (with real lows to match).


 
 Seems fair. I'm going to be trying to make sure to run it for awhile each day. Ideally, I'd like for it to be fully burned in when my ZMF Omni gets here. I'm finding it to sound a lot better in this burnin stage if I crank the gain way down using the -12 switch. I figure eventually I'll crank it back to +6 or +12 when I get my Omni

 All that said, I'm going to be selling off at least 2 pairs of what I currently own, maybe 3, so I'm waiting to see what sounds best here.
  
 Thanks for the tip, though, I'll try not to judge too harshly until I've had more time with it. I'm pretty sure it's not a voltage thing at this point, since I'd guess it just straight up wouldn't work if the voltage was wrong.


----------



## genclaymore

After burning my H10 for a while I still didn't like the way the op-amp combination sound, so I swap them out and tried different ones and making notes after using them for a while so i can compare,til i found a couple that I liked, but not enough to keep using them. I originally had LME49860's paired with LME49990's but I didn't like the sound. I found it Dull and boring. The LME49860's with LT1357's was nice but the the bass being punchy after wards ruined it, even tho the sound stage/imaging was nice that bass being that way ruined it.
  
 I using LT1469's now after the LT1489's i was trying decided to distort after working for a while with the LT1357's. I like the LT1469's with the LT1357's a lot more after the other combos but the LT1357's makes the bass punchy still, it just less of it. As soon the AD797BRZ's comes it will be put in it place and i should be happy. I just didn't like the LME49990's in any combo i tried but it wont go to waste, instead i will just them inside a dual to single op-amp adapter and install it on my Xonar DS for my Numark N-wave 360's studio monitors hoping it will do a good job with those.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

I wonder if by stacking X12 + H10 equals to an amount close to a US$1000.
  
 Is it comparable to other dac/amp combo like Oppo HA-1, for example? (Second hand)


----------



## auvgeek

olek said:


> I think it pairs fine with HD650 when burn-in is over. Not as great as Crack+Speedball though. My primary complain with this pairing is not enough sub-bass and slightly over-pronounced mid-bass hump. But I am not a fan of HD650 sound signature and prefer brightness of DT880 (with real lows to match).


 

 You really need to try the HE 560. The pairing with the H10 is amazing. I had DT880 and the HE-560 just does everything better. 
  
 By the way, I finally settled on my DAC: Theta Basic IIIa with Gustard U12 as a USB transport via AES. Even the DT 150 sounds remarkable, but the HE-560 is just sublime. In contrast, the LCD-2F is a little too dark and not revealing enough. I still need to try some better XLR interconnects, mod the U12, and jerg-mod the HE-560, but this is by far the best sound I've heard. There are still planned upgrades, but I'm finally starting to feel satisfied in the bass department.
  
 Edit: The Theta Basic III straight from the optical out of my Macbook Pro was better than the Gungnir USB Gen2. Adding the U12 took it to a whole different level—one that finally sounds like "hi-fi" to me. Eventually, I'd love a Tanly DDC, a USB cable with no +5v power, and a balanced amp (Gustard H20?) or maybe even a speaker amp. And maybe the new HE-6 if it received trickle-down from the HE-1000.


----------



## Arnotts

In my experience the characteristics of the H10 synergize the best with headphones that are characteristically brighter/airier/thinner. This is because the H10 leans a little towards the warmer, smoother, thicker side of things. The H10 also has a more intimate sized soundstage. These traits work really nicely with headphones like the DT880's and Hifimans (although I've only ever tried the HE-400's with the H10 for about 10 minutes, there's a huge amount of praise for the Hifiman + H10 combo in this thread).
  
 It's got the kind of sound that tends to work well with pretty much everything. I'm even using HD650's with them right now, and although I feel like the HD650's have more to offer, I'm still enjoying the combination just fine


----------



## BassDigger

auvgeek said:


> You really need to try the HE 560. The pairing with the H10 is amazing. I had DT880 and the HE-560 just does everything better.
> 
> By the way, I finally settled on my DAC: Theta Basic IIIa with Gustard U12 as a USB transport via AES. Even the DT 150 sounds remarkable, but the HE-560 is just sublime. In contrast, the LCD-2F is a little too dark and not revealing enough. I still need to try some better XLR interconnects, mod the U12, and jerg-mod the HE-560, but this is by far the best sound I've heard. There are still planned upgrades, but I'm finally starting to feel satisfied in the bass department.


 
  
 (Sorry to butt in)
  
 Theta dacs are pretty popular, somewhere around here. I'd like to try one.
  
 If I'd already bought an H10, I may have been (very) happy with an upgrade from the he400 to the he500. But the reviews of the he560 make it seem like it might be a bit too forward, for me.
  
 As it is, I've got the lcd2f, and will most likely be getting an H10 to power them.
 Your comment about bass got my attention (as any comments on _that_ subject tend to); can you comment about the differences; the lcd2 is supposed to be 'the Don', when it comes to bass!


----------



## auvgeek

bassdigger said:


> (Sorry to butt in)
> 
> Theta dacs are pretty popular, somewhere around here. I'd like to try one.
> 
> ...


 

 Stock HE-560 has better bass than the LCD-2F. I haven't heard the LCD2.2, so that may be better. And I hope that modding the HE-560 will bring the bass to a whole different level, as jerg suggests. From what I've read, you can tame the treble of the HE-560 by changing the pads and grills. I have been wanting to do that since I purchase them in March, but I've been so busy (grad school) I haven't had the chance.


----------



## DDDamian

I have the pre-fazor 2.2's, and the HE-560 won't touch them for bass, pad-change or not. The HE-400's have deeper extension than the HE-560's. Both the LCD2.2's and HE-400's pair nicely with the H-10. The 400's especially as the H-10 really tames the high end on those.


----------



## BassDigger

auvgeek said:


> Stock HE-560 has better bass than the LCD-2F. I haven't heard the LCD2.2, so that may be better. And I hope that modding the HE-560 will bring the bass to a whole different level, as jerg suggests. From what I've read, you can tame the treble of the HE-560 by changing the pads and grills. I have been wanting to do that since I purchase them in March, but I've been so busy (grad school) I haven't had the chance.


 
  
 Thanks for the speedy response; "better" is nice, but better in what way? More extension, faster, fuller, more textured? What are the qualities that you like?
 I'd be interested to hear about the effects of your planned mods. I like modified stuff, but doing them myself only tends to be a waste of time, at best!
 Yeah, I keep reading that the lcd2.2 has THE best bass; the fazor model is supposed to be compromised more towards the mids and treble. My lcd2fs certainly don't have any more extension than the he400 or d2000. I'm hoping that the H10 might help with this.


----------



## BassDigger

dddamian said:


> I have the pre-fazor 2.2's, and the HE-560 won't touch them for bass, pad-change or not. The HE-400's have deeper extension than the HE-560's. Both the LCD2.2's and HE-400's pair nicely with the H-10. T*he 400's especially as the H-10 really tames the high end on those.*


 
  
 It seems like it's a shame that I didn't hear about the H10, before I changed my he400 for the (3x the price) lcd2f!
  
 It's ok, because I love everything else about the lcd2f sound. I just crave a bit more sub-bass extension and power (and perhaps a bit more of that he400 style attack and texture).


----------



## auvgeek

Sorry, I was actually editing my post to be a little more specific: the bass is tighter, faster, with better "air," and very realistic decay. It's probably not "fuller." But I can *almost* feel the thump of a kick drum or tom, because so much air is displaced. Instrument separation and placement are superb, which helps when listening specifically for the drum or bassline. Overall, the HE-560 is just the more technical headphone. Sub-bass still remains my main complaint, but I hope the jerg mods fix that. Note that I listen to mainly indie rock, not EDM or bass-heavy music. And yes, I currently own both the LCD-2F and the HE-560. Probably going to sell the 2F soon. Again, just my opinion in my system.
  
@DDDamian I mean the full jerg mod; not just the change to Focus A pads. Have you own or extensively listened to a pair of HE-560s with the back wave damping and seal enhancement mods done?


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> It seems like it's a shame that I didn't hear about the H10, before I changed my he400 for the (3x the price) lcd2f!
> 
> It's ok, because I love everything else about the lcd2f sound. I just crave a bit more sub-bass extension and power (and perhaps a bit more of that he400 style attack and texture).


 
 I hear you on the attack and texture thing - that's one of the first things that struck me about the HE-400, especially after being "tuned" to the HD-650's sound. The HE-400 has those in spades.
  
 I like the LCD2.2/H-10 pairing but prefer the BH S.E.X. even more: just more dynamic and keeps the high's of the LCD in place - they are good without being fatiguing, unlike the HE-400.
  
 I'm not sure what you're powering your LCD2.2f's with, but the Gustard has lots of power to drive the low-end nicely, and the bass comes across as full but not artificial. It's there if the song calls for it.
  
 I've heard the same about the fazor: better imaging and clarity from the mids up at the cost of some bass. There's also been a long history of LCD tweaks, and Tyll notes what he perceives as a gradual reduction in bass over time. My pre-fazors are late 2013, and to me they strike a great balance. I wouldn't trade them for a fazor'd model, but perhaps someone here will? You might want to consider posting in the buy/sell/trade forum to get a pre-fazor pair for yours.
  
 That said, what are you driving with? Sorry - too lazy to scroll back lol.


----------



## DDDamian

auvgeek said:


> Sorry, I was actually editing my post to be a little more specific: the bass is tighter, faster, with better "air," and very realistic decay. It's probably not "fuller." But I can *almost* feel the thump of a kick drum or tom, because so much air is displaced. Instrument separation and placement are superb, which helps when listening specifically for the drum or bassline. Overall, the HE-560 is just the more technical headphone. Sub-bass still remains my main complaint, but I hope the jerg mods fix that. Note that I listen to mainly indie rock, not EDM or bass-heavy music. And yes, I currently own both the LCD-2F and the HE-560. Probably going to sell the 2F soon. Again, just my opinion in my system.
> 
> @DDDamian I mean the full jerg mod; not just the change to Focus A pads. Have you own or extensively listened to a pair of HE-560s with the back wave damping and seal enhancement mods done?


 
 Hi auvgeek - perhaps I should have clarified mine a bit too - it's easy to make a sweeping statement as I did, and we all hear differently.
  
 I have not heard a modded 560, and my LCD experience is limited to the pre-fazor's, so my reply was based on yours that the stock 560 had better bass than the 2.2, and on that I'll hold my ground that I found the reverse true.
  
 For the rest I'll have to rely on what I've gleaned after researching (!caveat!) as I was weighing exactly those two for my next purchase, and chose the 2.2. That and on InnerFidelity's measurements and comments. That would also point to the 2.2 as having the deeper extension and control in the low-end, with the 560 winning the mids battle.
  
 What I find especially interesting is that just about every HifiMan edition has spawned mods to overcome different issues: glaring treble, ringing, missing sub-bass, depending on the model. This is far less common with the Audeze line. That's not to say that a stock Audeze will meet everyone's requirements - far from it, as the for-sale ads indicate. I just find it telling. Another factor I considered is Head-Fi's own stats on user-acceptance, which show a very low relative turn-over for the Audeze line.
  
 All these generalities mean nothing - your ears and no-one else's matter. But stock-to-stock I'd take the pre-fazor 2.2 over the 560 for bass quality and quantity, and the 560 for the mids.


----------



## auvgeek

dddamian said:


> my reply was based on yours that the stock 560 had better bass than the 2.2, and on that I'll hold


 
 Note that my comments were specifically about the LCD-2F; I haven't heard the pre-fazor LCD-2.2. I have no doubt, based on Tyll's measurements and trusted sources on Head-Fi, that the 2.2 has more bass than the 2F. But if I had a pair of LCD-2.2s, I'd be pestering Bill-P about his mods which he claims* make them brighter with less fatigue and better bass than the (modded) HE-560. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 *and the measurements he's posted are enough to convince me he's onto something.


----------



## BassDigger

@auvgeek and @DDDamian Thanks
  
 I'm definitely driving my planars underpowered. My attempts at realising this weren't very successful (ref http://www.head-fi.org/t/741024/he-400-bass-not-as-present-as-i-expected/60#post_11515919)
  
 But more recently reading that the Beyer A1 (that my clone is based on) amp only puts out around 150mw kind of confirmed my suspicions. On the above mentioned thread, the general consensus was that my amp was plenty powerful enough. Like I say; I didn't realise how low the power rating is, at the time.
  
 Those Hifimans really do put the 'TH' into the 'THump' of bass. But they were just too thin and 'weightless', with my current amp. I haven't done any proper comparisons (referring back to some notes), but the lcd2f present the bass in a fuller and warmer manner (as well as just move everything else a few leagues up!!).
  
 I'd like to try some pre-fazors, but I'll just see what the H10 can do for me, first.
  
 BTW (now I'm being lazy) what's the BH s.e.x.? Is this a good (even better) amp for the lcd2?


----------



## auvgeek

bassdigger said:


> @auvgeek and @DDDamian Thanks
> 
> I'm definitely driving my planars underpowered. My attempts at realising this weren't very successful (ref http://www.head-fi.org/t/741024/he-400-bass-not-as-present-as-i-expected/60#post_11515919)
> 
> ...


 
 I liked the LCD-2F better than the HE-560 until I upgraded my DAC from Audio-GD Compass (Wolfson chip) to the Schiit Gungnir (and then the Theta Basic III). Just something to consider. It's not just the amp; it's the whole audio chain. And regarding the amp, it's not just how much power it can output, it's also about how good it sounds—but I'm far from an expert on what makes a good amp.
  
Bottlehead S.E.X.


----------



## DDDamian

auvgeek said:


> Note that my comments were specifically about the LCD-2F; I haven't heard the pre-fazor LCD-2.2. I have no doubt, based on Tyll's measurements and trusted sources on Head-Fi, that the 2.2 has more bass than the 2F. But if I had a pair of LCD-2.2s, I'd be pestering Bill-P about his mods which he claims* make them brighter with less fatigue and better bass than the (modded) HE-560.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Link? Would be an interesting read! And your comments on synergy are bang-on 
  
@BassDigger - yep - wouldn't advise you judge any planar based on that. If there's one thing they all need (especially in the bass department) it's power. I remember reading the initial posts in the HE-400 thread that claimed how great they sounded from a smartphone. I guess the obvious question is "compared to what?". They all exhibit low impedance but really do need current to sound their best. And bass needs far more power availability than treble. The Gustard will really help here.


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> BTW (now I'm being lazy) what's the BH s.e.x.? Is this a good (even better) amp for the lcd2?


 
 Stunning. Yes, I prefer it to the Gustard. Surprisingly brighter and more detailed than the Gustard and it's a tube amp. They pop up for sale in finished form in the classifieds, although not nearly as much as the lower-priced OTL Crack which pairs so well with high-impedance cans like the 650 or 800.
  
 Can't recommend it enough, but it costs more than the H-10, has almost no tube-rolling potential, and won't be everyone's cup-of-tea. It'll drive almost anything out there well.


----------



## Jozurr

auvgeek said:


> You really need to try the HE 560. The pairing with the H10 is amazing. I had DT880 and the HE-560 just does everything better.
> 
> By the way, I finally settled on my DAC: Theta Basic IIIa with Gustard U12 as a USB transport via AES. Even the DT 150 sounds remarkable, but the HE-560 is just sublime. In contrast, the LCD-2F is a little too dark and not revealing enough. I still need to try some better XLR interconnects, mod the U12, and jerg-mod the HE-560, but this is by far the best sound I've heard. There are still planned upgrades, but I'm finally starting to feel satisfied in the bass department.
> 
> Edit: The Theta Basic III straight from the optical out of my Macbook Pro was better than the Gungnir USB Gen2. Adding the U12 took it to a whole different level—one that finally sounds like "hi-fi" to me. Eventually, I'd love a Tanly DDC, a USB cable with no +5v power, and a balanced amp (Gustard H20?) or maybe even a speaker amp. And maybe the new HE-6 if it received trickle-down from the HE-1000.


 
 How much did the Theta set you back and have you compared that dac to any other DACs?


----------



## mandrake50

EDIT OK... a bit more searching informs me about the dip switch in the number 1 position. Mine did not come with the switch in the UP position. Now it is... all is good. Playing balanced inputs quite nicely.
  
  

 Did I read that there are jumpers that need to be set to change from balanced to unbalanced inputs on the H10?
 If so, and someone could let me know where they are, I would appreciate it greatly. I got an H10 from one of the Massdrop drops. It came with no documentation. A quick search found nothing online....
 So, any help wanted and appreciated.
  
 BTW, I connected the H10 balanced from a DC1. Getting no output. I think I will give unbalanced a try, but sure would like to know how to switch it.


----------



## genclaymore

There is dip switches that are in the same spot where the gain dip switches are.


----------



## BassDigger

auvgeek said:


> I liked the LCD-2F better than the HE-560 until I upgraded my DAC from Audio-GD Compass (Wolfson chip) to the Schiit Gungnir (and then the Theta Basic III). Just something to consider. It's not just the amp; it's the whole audio chain. And regarding the amp, it's not just how much power it can output, it's also about how good it sounds—but I'm far from an expert on what makes a good amp.
> 
> Bottlehead S.E.X.


 
  
 It certainly seems that, compared to me, your preference is for a cleaner more detailed sound; you seem to value clarity and resolution, whereas perhaps I may prefer a little more solidity and body (these are my adjectives; of course, they could mean something different to you!) to the sound.
  
 My guess (and it's just my guess) is that as you've improved your source, the sound, the details, have been presented in a more listenable manner. Your previous preference for the lcd2: maybe it was because they didn't lay the less well resolved sound so bare. Whereas now, with your dac upgrades, the sound is more 'listenable', you (can now) appreciate the greater resolving abilities (they've been likened to the HD800) of the he560. That's my guess.
  
 As for me: although there's always room for improvement; I think that the quality of my rig is pretty darn good; my source is something that I waited a long time for, and the amp seems to be quite uncoloured. But there's always room for tweaks and upgrades. ALWAYS!
  
 I don't expect that the H10 will be my endgame amp; it should just fill a hole. And that hole is, despite your quite correct opinion that 'power isn't everything', I neeeed more powerrrrr!


----------



## BassDigger

> Quote:
> 
> 
> bassdigger said:
> ...


 
  
 I really was being lazy; it was late; my brain had slipped into neutral! BH = Bottlehead. Thanks to @auvgeek, for pointing that out.
  
 I'll (asap) see how I like the lcd2f-H10 combination. I guess I'll have to wait for the H10 to properly run-in. In the meantime, I'll try to get up to speed on what really is the best (but not unaffordable) amp to drive the lcd. I'll have a closer look at the dedicated lcd2 amp thread, although I don't think that I'll ever trawl through the whole thing.
 But the H10 should give me a good reference point; my current amp is just too much of an unknown.
 At the moment, the recommendations that come to mind are the likes of the WA6SE, Beta 22, Krell KSA5 clone, and now the BH S.E.X.
 Once I find out where the H10 fits into this hierarchy (_not as detailed as the BH_





 ), I'll know which way I want to go.


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> I really was being lazy; it was late; my brain had slipped into neutral! BH = Bottlehead. Thanks to @auvgeek, for pointing that out.
> 
> I'll (asap) see how I like the lcd2f-H10 combination. I guess I'll have to wait for the H10 to properly run-in. In the meantime, I'll try to get up to speed on what really is the best (but not unaffordable) amp to drive the lcd. I'll have a closer look at the dedicated lcd2 amp thread, although I don't think that I'll ever trawl through the whole thing.
> But the H10 should give me a good reference point; my current amp is just too much of an unknown.
> ...


 
 It's all part of the journey. I actually read that whole thread - took ages lol. But you've hit on some of the better amps with the LCD.
  
 Look forward to your H-10 impressions once you receive it and let it cook - it really is great value and a warm yet detailed sound.


----------



## auvgeek

bassdigger said:


> It certainly seems that, compared to me, your preference is for a cleaner more detailed sound; you seem to value clarity and resolution, whereas perhaps I may prefer a little more solidity and body (these are my adjectives; of course, they could mean something different to you!) to the sound.
> 
> My guess (and it's just my guess) is that as you've improved your source, the sound, the details, have been presented in a more listenable manner. Your previous preference for the lcd2: maybe it was because they didn't lay the less well resolved sound so bare. Whereas now, with your dac upgrades, the sound is more 'listenable', you (can now) appreciate the greater resolving abilities (they've been likened to the HD800) of the he560. That's my guess.
> 
> ...


 

 Well, honestly, I don't think so. I prefer bass over resolution any day. Can't get enough of it, provided it doesn't get muddy. I think Cap'n Stu is firmly in the detail-retreval camp, as his mods tend to be searching for more detail and resolution in his system. All my upgrades have been to increase the bass in my system. And for the record, I'm just now _starting_ to get enough bass for my taste. Just a hint of what's possible. But for a while, even before I changed sources, I noticed the HE-560 had more/better bass (in terms of air displacement and extension) than the LCD-2F, but the highs were just too much. The 2F is a very polite headphone: not particularly heavy on the bass, not particularly airy in the treble, narrow soundstage, and not very revealing...but warm through the mids. Vocals (can) sound really, really good. My desire to upgrade my source was still when I preferred the LCD-2F because I wanted more bass. Frankly, I haven't heard a system (with an open headphone) that I thought had too much bass. If the jerg mods don't do it for me, I'll have to nab a LCD-2.2, I guess. On that note, here's the link @DDDamian requested to Bill-P's modded LCD-2.2.
  
 (Heading to bed now, I'll have to re-read tomorrow morning to make sure the above makes sense.)
  
 PS. My comments about power only really apply once you reach a certain threshold. Probably 4-10 W or something. I just meant that a low-grade speaker amp outputting 150 WPC isn't necessarily going to sound better than a TOTL headphone amp or a well-designed speaker amp outputting 15-30 WPC.


----------



## DDDamian

auvgeek said:


> On that note, here's the link @DDDamian requested to Bill-P's modded LCD-2.2.


 
 Thanks mate - g'night!


----------



## 290752 (Jun 9, 2021)

.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

Any news of H20?


----------



## BassDigger

fattycheesebeef said:


> Any news of H20?


 
  
 Talking of the 'H20'; my wish list now contains the need for some pre-outputs, to allow easy volume matching of connected ancillaries (such as a potential SubPac purchase), in addition to the ability to act as a pre-amp. This on top of enough power to drive planar headphones (and a 'Gustard style' bargain selling price, of course).
  
 Come on Gustard, amaze us again!


----------



## genclaymore

kepler28nm said:


> Just got my H10...
> 
> WOW
> 
> ...


 

 Should be as long you place two into the Two Dual channel op-amp sockets that are by the outputs on the rear and not the Two Single channel op-amp sockets.


----------



## Jhya

Wondering how the opamps are implemented in the H10. Is the single channel opa134's the buffer, and the dual channel NE5532 the input voltage I/V?


----------



## 406382

olek said:


> Yes, you are bottlenecking it by your DAC, question is 'how much'. I have heard that new Modi 2 Uber is pretty good, but my experience with original Modi suggests that it does not have much detail/texture, and that is exactly the strong side of H10. H10 can not amplify the detail that is not supplied to it.
> 
> I am pretty impressed those days by combination of (new to me) DACmini CX and H10 with low impedance headphones. DACmini bested MusicStreamer II so much that it was not even funny - mostly in smoothness and sheer musicality, HRT sounded extremely grainy in comparison. Original Bifrost put up a good fight, but DACmini still beat it in low end extension (goes much deeper and stronger) and overall sound is a notch smoother (without obvious loss of detail) and more musical. Funny because it has same chip as original Modi, but apparently a lot depends on implementation.
> 
> Sorry for your wallet.


 
  
 Oh it'll live. It's writhing in agony as we speak 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but it'll live. Now to make sure the wife doesn't see that new package arrive... 
  
 I got hold of a Metrum Quad DAC + the accompanying 7VA power supply. Should arrive tomorrow, then I can post some impressions of this DAC's pairing with the H10 and HE-500. Also bought a couple of extra second hand cables since the Metrum doesn't have USB inputs: Audioquest Forest Optical & Oehlbach NF113 coax cables + a pair of Linn Black RCA's. 
  
 Also, now that I have a DAC with SPDIF inputs, I can use my existing Teddy Pardo USB/SPDIF converter to optimize the HTPC > DAC connection. The hard part will be to resist testing all those new variables at once. Every new piece in the chain will have to prove it's worth before it can stay, so I'll swap 'em in one at a time to see what it does.


----------



## kdejonge

Just received my h10. After going around the house to find the right power cable I connected it. Right now I'm not so impressed, my rotel out is much better. Guess I have to run it for a few days, hope it'll improve.


----------



## tretneo

Just received mine (via Massdrop) and I have to say I was a little worried after hearing that others have been experiencing blatant QA issues. So far so good though, no internal rattling, the volume knob turns with ease, no obvious sound issues.

Anyone else pairing their H10 with a Modi 2 Uber and HiFiMan cans?

Currently I'm burning it in with the following setup (will likely keep it configured this way)

iPhone/iPad (Tidal) > AirPlay > TP-LINK AirEnabler > Modi 2 Uber (via USB) > Gustard H10 > HiFiMan HE-560

I'll also be adding a Raspberry Pi 2 running RuneAudio at some point for higher bitrate FLAC playback.


----------



## mandrake50

Got mine yesterday afternoon. Fired it up with the HE 560 driven by the Emotiva DC1. Immediately I was impressed. Have let it run for 24 hours. Will turn it off tonight and fire it up tomorrow.
 I am really quite happy with the sound as of my first listen. If it really gets better.. I am going to be extremely impressed.


----------



## DDDamian

Congrats guys - hope all sounds well after the cook-off


----------



## auvgeek

mandrake50 said:


> I am really quite happy with the sound as of my first listen. If it really gets better.. I am going to be extremely impressed.


 
 Let many have said, just don't freak out if it gets worse for the next few days.


----------



## tretneo

auvgeek said:


> Let many have said, just don't freak out if it gets worse for the next few days.


 
  
 Can you elaborate? I can go back and look for what you're referencing but if you can summarize what you've seen/experienced that would be awesome.


----------



## mandrake50

auvgeek said:


> Let many have said, just don't freak out if it gets worse for the next few days.


 
 It has about 30 hours on it now. I have not really been listening much during that time. I turned it off last night, but will crank it up and let it do another 24 or so. I am not a true believer in burn-in, but so many have commented on this one, I figured I had nothing to lose.
  
 I will do the cycle twice more before I have time to do a bit of listening over the weekend.
 And... don't worry, I will not freak out.


----------



## lancevance117

Got my H10 a few weeks ago, and finished reading this whole thread at this moment, changed the 5532 to LME49860 and opa134 to ad797anz. any recommendations?
 DAC uses Gustard x12
 and interconnects are super super cheap 6N OCC 1meter XLR cords from a chinese brand called Choseal, cost me around $32.


----------



## PWGuy

tretneo said:


> Just received mine (via Massdrop) and I have to say I was a little worried after hearing that others have been experiencing blatant QA issues. So far so good though, no internal rattling, the volume knob turns with ease, no obvious sound issues.
> 
> Anyone else pairing their H10 with a Modi 2 Uber and HiFiMan cans?
> 
> ...




I do! Modi 2 Uber and H10. First DAC and HP amp, so I have no means to compare .


----------



## tretneo

pwguy said:


> I do! Modi 2 Uber and H10. First DAC and HP amp, so I have no means to compare
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Fair enough, what's your opinion so far? And what headphones are you driving with the pairing?


----------



## goobicii

when will H20 come out


----------



## lancevance117

goobicii said:


> when will H20 come out


 
 from what i have heard, it will be late this year


----------



## goobicii

what is the general conclusion about H10,I saw ppl say its like V200 with less rolled of treble.Considering balanced H20 isnt out,how does H10 compare to V200 and V220?
  
 I find it hard to believe that it can be so good for so little money


----------



## swannie007

goobicii said:


> what is the general conclusion about H10,I saw ppl say its like V200 with less rolled of treble.Considering balanced H20 isnt out,how does H10 compare to V200 and V220?
> 
> I find it hard to believe that it can be so good for so little money


 
 Not if you clone an amp and change a few details to avoid copyright infringement. Some companies have HUGE markups on their gear and others are happy with a more modest profit and higher turnover with corresponding savings passed on to customers. There is often a lot of hype surrounding expensive gear to justify it's cost. I am happy to let my ears do the testing and not rely on the price tag to dictate my purchase decisions. If it sounds good and is a relative bargain, then everyone wins!


----------



## 406382

mark235 said:


> Oh it'll live. It's writhing in agony as we speak
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Metrum Quad DAC and PSU arrived today. Had an evening to compare it with the Modi on the H10 and HE-500. Is there a significant difference between the Quad and the Modi?
  
 Yes, absolutely. The Modi sounds muddied compared to the Quad. The best way to describe the Quad is clean & detailed with a big soundstage. It's also tight (good PRaT), if such a characteristic is possible on a DAC (perhaps this is due to the tighter bass?). Despite being very clean, it doesn't slip into an analytical performance. Still, if you like your sound mellow, this might not be the DAC for you. Output on the Quad is different, I have to turn the volume down compared to the Modi.
  
 Does the Quad pair well with the H10? I think it definitely does, although the clean sound can border a bit on the bright or harsh side at times. But the HE-500's treble might have more to do with this than the H10 sound signature. I enjoy the added qualities of the Metrum a lot, and definitely prefer these + slight harshness over the kinder, but (a lot) more veiled performance of the Modi. 
  
 I must admit the comparison isn't entirely fair. The Quad DAC doesn't have a USB input so I use my more than decent Teddy Pardo USB/SPDIF converter to feed it an SPDIF signal. The Modi 1 doesn't have Coax input, so it does not benefit from the same clean signal. 
  
 My wife is starting to comment on the stacks' height. I guess 1 member will depart soon. Modi you were (are) a sound performer for the money. 
  
 Edit: forgot the Magni. Maybe I should add a Schiit Fulla as the cherry on the cake?


----------



## mandrake50

Just curious, about what did you pay for the Metrum gear. I tried to look it up.. saw demos for around $800.. did not find the power supply. I am not a huge Schiit fan, but is this a level playing field? Are you surprised at the outcome?
  
 Nice gear BTW...


----------



## BassDigger

mark235 said:


> *Metrum Quad DAC and PSU* arrived today. Had an evening to compare it with the Modi on the H10 and HE-500. Is there a* significant difference between the Quad and the Modi*?
> 
> *Yes, absolutely.* The Modi sounds muddied compared to the Quad. The best way to describe the Quad is clean & detailed with a big soundstage.* It's also tight (good PRaT), if such a characteristic is possible on a DAC (perhaps this is due to the tighter bass?).* Despite being very clean, it doesn't slip into an analytical performance. Still, if you like your sound mellow, this might not be the DAC for you. Output on the Quad is different, I have to turn the volume down compared to the Modi.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can a dac have an effect on PRaT? Absolutely!! You got my attention, when I read this part of your comment.
 Why? Because, to me, this is a key factor in the difference between the two dac technologies, that are currently implemented. And your reference made me very curious about which kind of technology your new dac is.
 I won't go any further; this topic would be much better discussed on a dedicated thread (Here's one: http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuff), (and it would undoubtedly make the discussion more interesting, than it is currently!).
  
 It's widely accepted that the he500's treble and upper mids are less than perfect; there are grill mods etc. to improve this. But as your Metrum is brand spanking new, I think that after a few more hours of burn-in, the bass will probably fill out somewhat.
  
 As both you and another poster have mentioned, this isn't really fair on the Modi. It seems that you've found quite an interesting dac. Where did you hear about it?


----------



## strreamix

Question:
  
 I connected the following way, H10 RCA to 3.5mm into my headphone jack on PC. (soundblaster xtreme audio) I only got sound from the right channel of my headphones. Plus it sounded terrible, I have my DAC coming tomorrow, but I was just anxious to hear it. Is it because my soundcard doesnt have a dedicated line out? or should I be worried only getting sound from the right channel? I then tried the 3.5mm from the H10 into my iphone 5s and got a bit more volume from the left side but it definitely wasn't balanced. Headphones are balanced when i put them directly into the computer. (Sennheiser HD555's) Just wanted to test things before plugging my LCD's in. Hopefully the DAC fixes it. If anyone has any idea whats going on, let me know, thanks. All dip switches on the back of the H10 are in the down position, connecting with an SE cable.


----------



## SDBiotek

strreamix said:


> Question:
> 
> I connected the following way, H10 RCA to 3.5mm into my headphone jack on PC. (soundblaster xtreme audio) I only got sound from the right channel of my headphones. Plus it sounded terrible, I have my DAC coming tomorrow, but I was just anxious to hear it. Is it because my soundcard doesnt have a dedicated line out? or should I be worried only getting sound from the right channel? I then tried the 3.5mm from the H10 into my iphone 5s and got a bit more volume from the left side but it definitely wasn't balanced. Headphones are balanced when i put them directly into the computer. (Sennheiser HD555's) Just wanted to test things before plugging my LCD's in. Hopefully the DAC fixes it. If anyone has any idea whats going on, let me know, thanks. All dip switches on the back of the H10 are in the down position, connecting with an SE cable.



Try using a different cable, if you have one. You might not be getting good contact in the jack from your source. Are you sure that the cable is stereo, not mono?


----------



## strreamix

I don't have another cable to try unfortunately.
  
 This is the one I purchased.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI89MSM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00


----------



## 406382

bassdigger said:


> Can a dac have an effect on PRaT? Absolutely!! You got my attention, when I read this part of your comment.
> Why? Because, to me, this is a key factor in the difference between the two dac technologies, that are currently implemented. And your reference made me very curious about which kind of technology your new dac is.
> I won't go any further; this topic would be much better discussed on a dedicated thread (Here's one: http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuff), (and it would undoubtedly make the discussion more interesting, than it is currently!).
> 
> ...


 
  
 When you say two DAC technologies, do you mean oversampling and non-oversampling? The Quad is a NOS DAC.
  
 Actually, my Quad is not new, it's a burned in second hand. There was a big hype around this DAC in 2011 when it surfaced on the Dutch market. After that, it also gained popularity in other countries. Especially the Quad's bigger brother, the Octave. There's a long thread on Metrum NOS DAC's on htforum.nl: http://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=106289.0
  
 I've been eyeing it ever since, but wasn't in need of a DAC until I started the headphone hobby recently.
  
 Edit: yes, perhaps this DAC review is better suited for the thread you mentioned. Still, since I'm using an H10, it's somewhat on topic


----------



## 406382

mandrake50 said:


> Just curious, about what did you pay for the Metrum gear. I tried to look it up.. saw demos for around $800.. did not find the power supply. I am not a huge Schiit fan, but is this a level playing field? Are you surprised at the outcome?
> 
> Nice gear BTW...


 
  
 I paid €275. The price you mention is probably for a recent ex-demo Octave, not Quad. The Metrum Quad and Octave were sold in different configs at different prices.
  
 initial pricing:
 Quad only: €300
 with PSU: €400
 Octave € (inc PSU): €800
  
 new pricing:
 Quad only: €400
 with PSU: €500
 Octave (inc PSU): €1100


----------



## gugman

Hi all. Just a very quick question - have he400i, can buy RSA HR-2 for 275 usd, should i go for it? Or your advise would be to order gustard h10 for 400$ ? Thanx a lot


----------



## strreamix

I have a decent amount (about 1 cm) of "give" in my volume knob. Is there any way to fix this without opening the amplifier?


----------



## DDDamian

strreamix said:


> I have a decent amount (about 1 cm) of "give" in my volume knob. Is there any way to fix this without opening the amplifier?


 
 You mean it slides in or out on the shaft of the volume pot? Not good. It could be that the set screw on the knob is loose in which case, well, tighten it. If that doesn't work open the amp and see if the whole pot is loose and moving.
  
 If you're still getting sound from only one channel as you wrote further up it may be the pot is pooched and only one channel is getting through it. That's unlikely though as that much play and likely neither channel's wiper arm would be making contact. I'd be opening it up...


----------



## strreamix

dddamian said:


> You mean it slides in or out on the shaft of the volume pot? Not good. It could be that the set screw on the knob is loose in which case, well, tighten it. If that doesn't work open the amp and see if the whole pot is loose and moving.
> 
> If you're still getting sound from only one channel as you wrote further up it may be the pot is pooched and only one channel is getting through it. That's unlikely though as that much play and likely neither channel's wiper arm would be making contact. I'd be opening it up...


 
 It doesnt go in/out. It has movement when either increasing/decreasing volume. (right/left)
  
 I was only getting 1 channel from the amp hooked directly to my PC, then I get a bit more from the left channel hooked to my iphone 5s. Just going to wait for my ODAC to come today and hope it all works.


----------



## BassDigger

mark235 said:


> When you say two DAC technologies, do you mean oversampling and non-oversampling? The Quad is a NOS DAC.
> 
> Actually, my Quad is not new, it's a burned in second hand. There was a big hype around this DAC in 2011 when it surfaced on the Dutch market. After that, it also gained popularity in other countries. Especially the Quad's bigger brother, the Octave. There's a long thread on Metrum NOS DAC's on htforum.nl: http://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=106289.0
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just to close off the OT here; I can see that you've already started posting on the other thread.
  
 I don't know if you've had time to get the full gist of the dac thread, but over-sampling (OS) is part of the topic; some say that it could be the main differentiating factor; this could be true. But it's not really about OS, non-OS.
 Incidentally, your impressions that the Metrum NOS dac is plenty detailed goes against the general opinion on that thread; many comments there clearly state that NOS is_ less _detailed, when compared to OS. Actually, your impressions are more in line with what _I'd _previously understood; that oversampling filters reduce detail, or more to the point, NOS designs, and mods, reveal more detail.
  
 Anyway, back to my point:
 The two technologies that I'm actually referring to are R-2R (multibit or ladder) and Delta Sigma (D-S) DACs.
 R-2R dacs, like the Metrum, are very rare; D-S dacs are the norm, and have been for over 20 years. But, there are an increasing number of people who believe that R-2R dacs offer better musical reproduction. I'm among them.
  
 I will be ordering my H10 very soon, to enjoy with my R-2R dac. I hope that it doesn't have any of the glitches that are troubling you, at the moment. I'm sure that you'll get your amp working fine, in the end. I just hope that it isn't too much hassle to do so.
 When/if my amp arrives, in good health, I have a little celebration planned.


----------



## tretneo

strreamix said:


> I don't have another cable to try unfortunately.
> 
> This is the one I purchased.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI89MSM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00


 
  
 I purchased one of these recently (last week) and had the same problem. Tons of static if I move the cable around and generally only audio on one side. If I tweaked it just right I would get both channels active but only temporarily and with tons of static. I think there must be a bad batch.


----------



## SDBiotek

strreamix said:


> I don't have another cable to try unfortunately.
> 
> This is the one I purchased.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI89MSM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00



That cable should be fine. Let us know if anything changes when you get your DAC. Hopefully you won't need to return the amp.


----------



## DDDamian

strreamix said:


> It doesnt go in/out. It has movement when either increasing/decreasing volume. (right/left)
> 
> I was only getting 1 channel from the amp hooked directly to my PC, then I get a bit more from the left channel hooked to my iphone 5s. Just going to wait for my ODAC to come today and hope it all works.


 
 Open 'er up.


----------



## tretneo

sdbiotek said:


> That cable should be fine. Let us know if anything changes when you get your DAC. Hopefully you won't need to return the amp.


 
  
 I believe it's the cable. I bought the same cable from Amazon a week or two ago and have similar issues with it. In fact I threw it away.


----------



## strreamix

The culprit was in fact the Kabeldirekt cable.
  
 Although, it is worthy to note that even with a new cable the "headphone jack" on my PC connected directly to the amplifier still output terrible audio quality.
  
 With the new cable and the ODAC connected, my audio is coming through very nice on a Sennheiser HD555. Although, my computer tends to blue screen often so I fear to plug in my LCD-3's until I get a new PC.


----------



## BassDigger

The cable? Well, at least that's an easy fix (and a cheaper cable).
  
 What about the H10 itself? Didn't you report some issues with the volume control?
  
 My H10 is, at last, on order! I expect to receive it quite soon. Then hopefully, I'll be able to make some more useful (or not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ) contributions to the thread.


----------



## strreamix

bassdigger said:


> The cable? Well, at least that's an easy fix (and a cheaper cable).
> 
> What about the H10 itself? Didn't you report some issues with the volume control?
> 
> ...


 
 The H10 is fine, although there is some wiggle in the volume control, but it seems to go away if i "pull" on the volume knob a little. Not sure if this is a good idea, but atm everything is working fine. I know nothing about the insides of these things so I'd prefer not to open the amp unless I truly had to and had very detailed instructions.


----------



## strreamix

Can anyone tell me the procedure for using the H10?
  
 Power on amp then plug in headphones? or Headphones in first then power on H10?


----------



## Rynsin

strreamix said:


> Can anyone tell me the procedure for using the H10?
> 
> Power on amp then plug in headphones? or Headphones in first then power on H10?


 
  
  
 In general, you'll want to turn the turn the volume knob all the way down, turn on the amp, then plug in headphones, then move the volume knob up slowly to a good volume. It doesn't matter too much, though. I doubt the H10 is any different, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
  
 I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions of the H10 with the LCD-3s once your PC is fixed. Good luck!


----------



## lancevance117

strreamix said:


> Can anyone tell me the procedure for using the H10?
> 
> Power on amp then plug in headphones? or Headphones in first then power on H10?


 
  


rynsin said:


> In general, you'll want to turn the turn the volume knob all the way down, turn on the amp, then plug in headphones, then move the volume knob up slowly to a good volume. It doesn't matter too much, though. I doubt the H10 is any different, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions of the H10 with the LCD-3s once your PC is fixed. Good luck!


 
 do whatever you want, but remember to turn the volume down to zero before turning on your h10, h10 design comes with a relay, which means it is safe to plug in ur headphones while on/off operation


----------



## pippen99

lancevance117 said:


> do whatever you want, but remember to turn the volume down to zero before turning on your h10, h10 design comes with a relay, which means it is safe to plug in ur headphones while on/off operation


 

 Maybe I'm courting disaster.  I leave my phones plugged in all the time.  After each listening session I turn the volume all the way down, check before I turn back on, and let the H10 warm up at least 20 minutes before I start listening.


----------



## lancevance117

pippen99 said:


> Maybe I'm courting disaster.  I leave my phones plugged in all the time.  After each listening session I turn the volume all the way down, check before I turn back on, and let the H10 warm up at least 20 minutes before I start listening.


 
 lol, i do the same as well, this amp needs warm-up IMO


----------



## BassDigger

pippen99 said:


> Maybe I'm courting disaster.  I leave my phones plugged in all the time.  After each listening session I turn the volume all the way down, check before I turn back on, and let the H10 warm up at least 20 minutes before I start listening.


 
  
 Always returning the volume control to zero, is the best habit. Even if there is some kind of 'disaster' or 'mishap' that feeds a potentially damaging signal to your phones, the volume set at zero is giving 100% resistance that will essentially block the signal.
 The only problem is the time that you forget that your volume is turned up very high; you forgot to return it to zero, and you do something 'silly'. That's why it's a 'belt and braces' measure to unplug your phones, as well as zeroing the volume.


----------



## MrMoose0987

Thought I'd report back after another week of using this. Y'all were right -- it's improved quite a bit since the initial listening. Enjoying it a good bit more now, and happy I've stuck it out.

 Looking forward to further improvement too. So nice.
  
 Thanks for running a great thread!


----------



## DDDamian

strreamix said:


> The H10 is fine, although there is some wiggle in the volume control, but it seems to go away if i "pull" on the volume knob a little. Not sure if this is a good idea, but atm everything is working fine. I know nothing about the insides of these things so I'd prefer not to open the amp unless I truly had to and had very detailed instructions.


 
 The volume pot may be slipping from it's "keyed" poisition, and pulling outwards on the volume knob re-seats it so it doesn't pivot. You may want to address that at some point as continual flexing of the wires to the volume pot could eventually break them. Your call


----------



## mandrake50

dddamian said:


> The volume pot may be slipping from it's "keyed" poisition, and pulling outwards on the volume knob re-seats it so it doesn't pivot. You may want to address that at some point as continual flexing of the wires to the volume pot could eventually break them. Your call


 

 The pot is soldered to the board... at the back of the unit. No wires to break... but this pulling could be messing with the pot itself.
  
 But, if the knob has a loose set screw... it could show the same symptoms. I haven't looked, as mine has no wobble or play... is there an accessible set screw on the volume knob?
  
 Check for a set screw and make sure it is tight. Next, open it up and see what is actually happening. I did not see any warranty seal. Check to see if the linkage to the pot has problems. Maybe the supports, or maybe the attachment to the pot . I haven't looked, as mentioned, but I wouldn't be surprised to see another set screw on the connection from the rod to the pot.


----------



## DDDamian

mandrake50 said:


> The pot is soldered to the board... at the back of the unit. No wires to break... but this pulling could be messing with the pot itself.
> 
> But, if the knob has a loose set screw... it could show the same symptoms. I haven't looked, as mine has no wobble or play... is there an accessible set screw on the volume knob?
> 
> Check for a set screw and make sure it is tight. Next, open it up and see what is actually happening. I did not see any warranty seal. Check to see if the linkage to the pot has problems. Maybe the supports, or maybe the attachment to the pot . I haven't looked, as mentioned, but I wouldn't be surprised to see another set screw on the connection from the rod to the pot.


 
 Good call mate - I'd assumed the pot was anchored to the front panel. Your explanation makes sense if it's soldered to the PCB. I  checked and there is a setscrew on the knob - easily accessible without opening the unit.


----------



## sunneebear

One of these set/grub screws are loose.


----------



## BassDigger

Great pics @sunneebear
  
@strreamix I didn't want to get involved; I haven't got an H10 in front of me (yet). But the Sunneebear's pics clearly show what is probably your issue; the linkage between knob and control.
  
 This amp has quite a rare set-up in that the actual volume pot is placed right at the back of the unit, next to where the signal feed comes in. This is the best solution. But it has the issue, because pot control isn't sticking out the front of the faceplate, as per a normal design, it needs a linkage to connect the knob (on the faceplate) to the pot. This gives extra opportunities for mechanical problems, such as what you appear to have.
  
 This _should_ be a very easy fix (if indeed it is the linkage). If you have no confidence, or the simple tools to get to and tighten these screws yourself, I'd strongly suggest that you find somebody to have a look at it. Anyone with some tools and technical experience could fix this; it's a <5 minute job. If you ignore it, it'll probably only get worse as the free-play wears at the loose component. (And of course, it could be something more serious, that could eventually have catastrophic consequences.)
  
 If you don't know anybody who's a bit 'handy', then you could take this to any workshop or repair shop (hifi/av, secondhand goods, computer, mobile phone...etc) and they should be able to fix this very quickly and cheaply (maybe for free, or the price of a beverage), while you wait. (Maybe if you have Sunneebear's pics, to show them, they'd be more willing to take a look.)


----------



## Tamirci

Sorry guys for being a noob. Im so unfamiliar to balanced stuff.
While even the branded (Toxic, Hifiman itself) xlr to headphone cables are single xlr ended, how am I supposed to plug it properly to this amp?


----------



## lancevance117

tamirci said:


> Sorry guys for being a noob. Im so unfamiliar to balanced stuff.
> While even the branded (Toxic, Hifiman itself) xlr to headphone cables are single xlr ended, how am I supposed to plug it properly to this amp?


 
 nevermind, just plug the xlr cable in, nothing will blowup, the only demerit is that such cabling would not be balanced, but this wont affect or harm ur system


----------



## railrus

tamirci said:


> Sorry guys for being a noob. Im so unfamiliar to balanced stuff.
> While even the branded (Toxic, Hifiman itself) xlr to headphone cables are single xlr ended, how am I supposed to plug it properly to this amp?


 
 xlr is for input; that is if you have for example DAC output via XLR. H10 output is via headphone jack which is single ended. for balanced output, you need for example Gustard's H20


----------



## sunneebear

Gone full Burson with my H10.
  

  
 I have used Burson discrete solid state opamps before when they just came out.  They are on their 4th Gen version now.   I emailed them with some questions and they offered me 25% off for being a loyal customer.  So now my $300 H10 cost $450.
  
  

 Two singles up front.
  
  

 Two duals in the back.
  

 My take on Burson discrete opamps is that they sound like nothing.  Like the old amplifier saying "wire with gain", that is what I think Burson opamps do for your amplifier.  They do not bring any color or character to the table like other opamps.  Not a bad thing if you are tuning the sound but I like the sound of the H10 so much from day one that I believe it should be in the spotlight.  Being neutral is great but where the Burson opamps shine is it's ability to magnify what is in the recording.  It sounds open or free of bottlenecks comes to mind.  Minute details sounds clear and focused, sometimes not a good thing.  Poor recordings are put in the spotlight becoming unbearable to listen to.  Effects and other processes in the recording is also magnified.  Most modern popular music become almost unlistenable because it sounds like the engineer was slacking or incompetent, or the music was made at home on a desktop.  I have very little high quality recordings and most are classical, instrumental with some jazz and vocals.  Being a child of the 80's I have a library of 80's recordings.  Many of which sound better than the recordings done today.  So if you are not rolling opamps in search of a certain flavor and you want to hear all that is in your music then I recommend trying these opamps.


----------



## sunneebear

I just want to add one thing that I forgot to mention in my last post.
  
 The Burson opamps come with socket risers.  With the riser on they will be too tall to close the cover.  No risers is the perfect height but the corners of the opamp will touch the two red rectangular caps beside the opamp sockets.  I used a Dremel tool to grind away the corners to make them fit.  I tried with a small jewelers or hobby file and that works too.  Just be careful and I guess a grinder or belt sander will also work.


----------



## snellemin

sunneebear said:


> I just want to add one thing that I forgot to mention in my last post.
> 
> The Burson opamps come with socket risers.  With the riser on they will be too tall to close the cover.  No risers is the perfect height but the corners of the opamp will touch the two red rectangular caps beside the opamp sockets.  I used a Dremel tool to grind away the corners to make them fit.  I tried with a small jewelers or hobby file and that works too.  Just be careful and I guess a grinder or belt sander will also work.


 
 Nice seeing someone using Burson's.


----------



## lancevance117

sunneebear said:


> Gone full Burson with my H10.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 actually i doubt why using discrete design for opamp, from what "the guy's name shall not be mentioned" said, these types of discrete opamps (audio-gd...etc) are just for marketing and exotic purposes and their performance dont even come close to those chip opamps from semiconductors makers


----------



## BassDigger

Good news! (for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). My H10 has arrived and is fully functional (no rattles, ill-fitting cables, smoke or mis-behaving volume control).
  

  
  
 Please join me in a celebratory "Aaaaaarrrrrrrrr M'laddy!!!", or two, courtesy of Captain Redbeard Rum.
  
 Enjoy:
  

  
  
 Just in case that wasn't enough "Aaaaaarrrrrrrrr M'laddy!!!", for you. Here's a bit more, _(thanks to Vladimir the Inhaler)_.
 (As it is possible to have too much of a good thing, I'd suggest playing this clip from around 1.40, so as not to overdo it.)
  

  
 Permission to break out the rum?
  
 I'll give my first impressions, of the H10, in a later post.


----------



## DDDamian

Congrats! It rocks with the LCD's...

Rum, give me rum till I float! Aaaaaarrŕrr


----------



## BassDigger

*First impressions:*
  
 All comparisons are against the only hp amp I've used, a Beyerdynamic A1 clone (HLLY RMK5), that's only quoted at producing 170mw max. Undoubtedly not enough power for my planar headphones. The only phones I'm currently using are the Audeze LCD2 fazor.
  
 Firstly, I guess I'll mention the dip (gain) setting. To begin with I used the 'thread default' setting of +6. I read (here) many recommendations that this is probably the best position (for planar phones). In the +6 position I found that most of my listening was with the volume set no higher that the '9.30' position, and usually lower (in the range of the indention in the face plate). I'll do more experimentation, in the future, but I thought that this seems a bit low in the usable range, so I've reset the dip to the all down '0' position, This has meant that volume is now using the '8.30' to '10 o'clock' range, so far.
 I don't know if it's the size of the volume knob, but the adjust seems very fine; it takes some considerable turning movement to effect the desired change. This is a good thing; fine adjustments (small increments), in the volume level, are easily accomplished.
  
  
*The sound-*
  
Some positives:
  
 I've already mentioned the power difference between the H10 and my other amp; at 2.7 watts, the H10 is getting on for 20x as powerful as the Beyer. I'm not suggesting that power is an all-encompassing factor. Just that any amplifier needs to be up to the task that it's set; it needs to match well with the transducers it's connected to. Some transducers require more power, to have the necessary reserves and control, than others. In the headphone world, planar headphones (and a few others), are notorious for needing 4 figure milliwatt power outputs to get the best out of them, regardless of other factors.
  
 So, with this in mind, I was quite glad to get the immediate impression that there is better bass reproduction, with the H10. Bass is the most power dependent part of the frequency range; it takes more energy to get the drivers to 'shift the air', to produce a bass note, and to control the driver once it is moving. The H10 seems to be doing this, better. The bass has more visceral impact, a little more extension, less mid and upper warmth and more transient impact. Previously, I'd found the LCD2f bass to be just ever so slightly warm and lacking 'kick', especially when compared to the he400. They definitely seem to have found a little of that extension, that I've been looking for. But I'm sure that there's still plenty more to be found!
  
Some _not so_ positives:
  
 I'm not panicking yet; it's only got about 3-4 hours of running; many posters have said that the H10 needs 10x that, to start showing it's true character.
 The second thing I noticed was that the sound is a little......'tinny'. It's still full and weighty, as I've mentioned. But regarding the mid-range and treble, the treble just isn't quite right; sometimes something, a bit of percussion, sounds very 'there', very present, and then other, perhaps higher frequencies, sound very recessed and unresolved. And vocals are showing some exaggerated 'C' and 'T' tendencies (_or should I write '*TT*endencies'_). I guess it's (currently) slightly emphasising perhaps the 10Khz region (I'm just guessing.)
  
 Maybe it's this treble emphasis that's having the effect of upsetting the treble mid-range balance; the mids aren't quite as present as I'm used to; I'm not regularly having the "OMG; that sounds _soooo_ real!!!" moments, that I'm used to. In fact, this combination of unruly treble and recessed mids is making my LCD2 sound a little reminsent of the he400, that I got rid of!
  
 But as I say, it's not time to panic; I'm very much a 'believer' ("_I belieeeeevvvve!!!"_) in burn-in, and the 3-4 hours of listening time is quickly turning into 8-9+ hours. As soon as I notice any change (apparently by around 40 hours, I should), I'll report back.


----------



## Jhya

bassdigger said:


> *First impressions:*
> 
> All comparisons are against the only hp amp I've used, a Beyerdynamic A1 clone (HLLY RMK5), that's only quoted at producing 170mw max. Undoubtedly not enough power for my planar headphones. The only phones I'm currently using are the Audeze LCD2 fazor.
> 
> ...




That's the sound of the stock H10, warm and soft yet detailed. It's as if the sound are all there, but you're sitting slightly a few rows back. Very laid back.

I also got the lcd2f and had burned in the H10 more than 100 hours. The treble and mid range anomoly may disappear with burn in. But The warmth and softness will always be present with the stock ne5532 and opa134.


----------



## DDDamian

jhya said:


> That's the sound of the stock H10, warm and soft yet detailed. It's as if the sound are all there, but you're sitting slightly a few rows back. Very laid back.
> 
> I also got the lcd2f and had burned in the H10 more than 100 hours. The treble and mid range anomoly may disappear with burn in. But The warmth and softness will always be present with the stock ne5532 and opa134.


 
 My thoughts as well.


----------



## audiochubb

audiochubb said:


> Just picked up the Gustard h10 yesterday and I'm just now getting the chance to do some critical listening(the wife just walked in so reset).  I listened for a few hours last night where I was barely conscious after a long week. I let it play all night to help burn in if that really is a thing.  Before I go in to details about what I have heard thus far let me warn you that I have very limited experience with high end gear and I am **** at physics    Please excuse me if I miss use a term to describe what I am hearing.
> 
> My only other amp experience is with the schiit asgard 2 which sounds good to me me but  I wanted something  with more power for my demanding hifiman he-500 and AKG k702s(just incase i was missing something).  Here are my early impressions:
> 
> ...


 
 Ok, so here is my follow up with  2 weeks on the SS gustard. First of all, thank you for the welcome Stuart and others.  Also, thank you to so many posters on here that share their experience with details and an open mind.
 Here is the equipment I use:
 PC media server
 Source: mostly bit perfect Flac in 96k 24 bit or 44k in 16bit...some mp3 if I must 
 genre: mostly folk, indie, rock, alt country,willie nelson(yes his own genre) some blues, some classical and some jazz
 DAC: hrt music streamer II (waiting on a u12 to arrive)
 amp: gustard 10
 cans: 34dd please
 or AKG 702(stock) and my go to's...hifiman he500's(canare cable, brain waves pleather ear pads and grill removal)
  
 I've had about a 100 hours of burn in on the AMP and listened almost the entire time
  
 First of all, it sounded great right out of the box and then some sputtering after a few days.   The sound got cloudy, real dark and some what muffled before opening up again with a tighter bass and better seperation. I would say that now the he 500's definitely have a slightly wider and deeper sound stage then they had on my asgard2.  They sound smooth and transparent to me and are definitely benefiting from 2 watts per channel according to my ears. To be fair, the asgard 2 is a fine amp and the clarity of the highs on certain tracks really tug at you. Back to the H10 though, I am extremely happy with the slight improvement with the hifiman and the strong improvement in the akg's.  Everything sounds so smooth but not dark(i think I prefer brighter sounds but not too bright).  I've never heard a dark amp or really dark headphones  but based on the commonly reported characteristics, I have always felt that the dark sound was not my pleasure dome. However,, after a year plus in the industry and my love for the he500's, I decided that maybe I should move a little closer to left of center.  Well, I think the gustard is that slight left of center sound that I was looking for. Clear, transparent, somewhat open but smooth. I am really enjoying listing to my set up for a good solid 4 hours a night the last two weeks.  I'm hoping that the gustard u12 will open up the sound stage just a tiny bit more than my HRT music streamer ii is capable of. we shall see! it's in my budget so I thought that I should give it a try. Any thoughts on the dac and possibly how it compares to the hrt music streamer or any recommendations for a dac under $200?
  
 enjoy the sound of life folks!!


----------



## mandrake50

What is sputtering?
 Curios. I have no frame of reference.  Admittedly, I listened for about an hour... was really impressed. I then let it run for about 90 hours, loaded and with music playing. I listened to the H10 ... guess what it still sounds good.
 I think it has gotten a bit smoother... more laid back, but it is still very detailed. It is reminiscent of my Sunrise II with a nice Mullard  in it, but much more powerful, much more detailed.
  
 In any case I am enjoying it immensely. I got the Pulse X infinity today. I listened to it for a bit. It too has its positives.  Once the Pulse has a few hours on it.. I will be very interested to hear how it sounds using its internal Dac and the H10, versus using its DAC balanced into the H10.


----------



## BassDigger

*20-30 hour report:*
  
 I've got 30+ hours of playing time on the H10 now, and I've believe I've noticed a few changes and re-enforced a couple of first impressions (all with no 'sputtering', yet!).
  
 Most of my listening has been with freshly downloaded and unfamiliar tracks; I hope to be able to make a more definitive assessment, when revisiting more familiar tracks.
  
 My first positive impression of the bass performance has not changed; right away, compared to my previous amp, this amp puts the 'Iron Fist' in what was previously a saw dust filled velvet glove. The bass immediately had much more of a solid, visceral impact, that was missing before.
 I can now confirm that this is backed up with some genuine extension and power in the lowest registers. I think that I'm now getting about as much as the LCD2f will deliver. Playing an old favourite album on (Orbital- In Sides), shows that 'The Box-Pt 2' has virtually all the normal bass notes present. They slightly lack power, compared to the rest of the frequency spectrum. But I believe that this is a limitation of the phones, rather than the amp.
 The most visceral (_I like this word)_ bass is missing; there's what sounds like a front door being slammed, punctuated throughout this track. I describe it as such, because when listening through some proper full-range speakers, that's what it sounds like; someone slamming the front door, downstairs (It's always quite disconcerting!). I can't really expect headphones to reproduce this 'seismic event', but I did think that I _just_ heard it, on one occasion. But overall the combination of H10 and LCD2f is delivering the kind of bass that I can live with; it has speed, power, texture, impact, weight and, at last, extension. It's both fast enough to properly reproduce the bass line, and powerful enough to do it without being drowned out by the rest of the spectrum. Until now, I've had to 'make do' with one or the other!
  
 The mids are now frequently producing the "OMG; that's so real!" moments, that I've become accustomed to with the LCD2. So much so, that (listening to unfamiliar tracks) I'm really not sure if percussive events are real, and happening around me, or something that's on the recording. The best example of this is to be found on 'The Cowboy Junkies- binaurally recorded concert'; track 3 (the 1st interlude) has what sounds like a stack of boxes being knocked over. This is the most realistic recorded sound that I've ever heard! It defies my belief in both what I can see (no boxes, nothing happening here) and what I know is the reality (It's on the recording; it's not real)!!!
  
 Another thing worth mentioning, is the sound stage; other posters have mentioned this; the H10 does seem to give a good wide spread from outside of one ear to the other. It was very driver located, in the first few hours. It sounded like the sound was coming directly from the left or right driver itself. But now the sound stage has spread out beyond the confines of the headphones, whilst still maintaining very focused performer placement, within the sound stage. I don't think that this is an easy task, with planar headphones!
  
 Now, the not so good news; the treble is still less than perfect. I think that it's calmed down, a little. But it's still seems to be emphasising what I would describe as the mid treble frequencies. Vocals are better, now. But metal percussion, cymbals in particular, are splashy and unrefined. Whilst the upper treble, the 'tinkliest' of the 'tinklies', is decidedly rolled off; almost MIA!
  
 I've got quite a few listening (burn-in) hours to go, before I can make a final conclusion. And then, it'll be interesting to find out what some op-amp swapping can achieve.
  
 But, so far, I can honestly say that the Gustard H10 has not disappointed!


----------



## DDDamian

^^^ Nice report! And that Cowboy Junkies binaural is wonderful - wish more live stuff was recorded that way.


----------



## tretneo

sunneebear said:


> Gone full Burson with my H10.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Looks like Burson Audio likes what you've done here!
  
 http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-headphone-amplifier-opamp-mod/


----------



## sunneebear

tretneo said:


> Looks like Burson Audio likes what you've done here!
> 
> http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-headphone-amplifier-opamp-mod/


 
  
 The H10 may be one of the best made and sounding amp under $500 or even $1000 from some comments made.  I figured from the money I saved might as well get the best opamps.


----------



## auvgeek

sunneebear said:


> The H10 may be one of the best made and sounding amp under $500 or even $1000 from some comments made.  I figured from the money I saved might as well get the best opamps.


 

 How would you characterize the Burson sound compared to the stock op-amps? I realize you've said the Burson opamps sound like "nothing," but how would you characterize the change in sound versus stock?


----------



## heliosphann

I'm kinda a noob when it comes to replacing op-amps. What's the process of swapping them?


----------



## LancerFIN

heliosphann said:


> I'm kinda a noob when it comes to replacing op-amps. What's the process of swapping them?


 

 Take the chip out of socket and put new one in.


----------



## heliosphann

lancerfin said:


> Take the chip out of socket and put new one in.


 
 Cool. I didn't know if there was soldering involved, etc...


----------



## fattycheesebeef

Does MUSES 01 or 02 considered op-amps too?


----------



## sunneebear

auvgeek said:


> How would you characterize the Burson sound compared to the stock op-amps? I realize you've said the Burson opamps sound like "nothing," but how would you characterize the change in sound versus stock?


 
  
 OK, just did a short A/B session with the stock chips and the Burson.  I've been using some other stuff before I got the Burson in so I needed a refresher.
  
 I have to say that I am very surprised by how good the stock set sounds.  No wonder the H10 is such a hit.  Tonally, stock and Burson sound very much alike.  The Burson is slightly more mid forward but that may be because vocals sound free-er, unrestricted.  Then again that is with every sound.  Cymbals ring out more.  Strings vibrate more.  Well I don't if that is the right description but hearing more of the micro details give me that impression.  The one thing that stands out right away between the two is the sound stage.  Imagine looking down from above an orchestra and you are standing where the conductor is.  With the stock the sound is like a three leaf clover.  You hear middle, left and right.  With the Burson the sound is a full 180 degrees like half a pie.  Then there is the sense of compression and expansion.  I got a chance to work with some studio equipment before and the sound of the stock is like having a compression/limiter on and the Burson is direct or bypass.  That's about it because I only listened to three songs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## Lohb

sunneebear said:


> OK, just did a short A/B session with the stock chips and the Burson.  I've been using some other stuff before I got the Burson in so I needed a refresher.
> 
> I have to say that I am very surprised by how good the stock set sounds.  No wonder the H10 is such a hit.  Tonally, stock and Burson sound very much alike.  The Burson is slightly more mid forward but that may be because vocals sound free-er, unrestricted.  Then again that is with every sound.  Cymbals ring out more.  Strings vibrate more.  Well I don't if that is the right description but hearing more of the micro details give me that impression.  The one thing that stands out right away between the two is the sound stage.  Imagine looking down from above an orchestra and you are standing where the conductor is.  With the stock the sound is like a three leaf clover.  You hear middle, left and right.  With the Burson the sound is a full 180 degrees like half a pie.  Then there is the sense of compression and expansion.  I got a chance to work with some studio equipment before and the sound of the stock is like having a compression/limiter on and the Burson is direct or bypass.  That's about it because I only listened to three songs
> 
> ...


 

 I like the overview of the sound-stage analogy.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello folks, I just read from a very reputable Head-Fi'er that the Liquid Carbon amp has a special implementation that allows both balanced and RCA inputs to deliver equally good sound into this amp - but I'm wondering if that may be depending on the DAC; some may have better SE sections and others may have better balanced sections than other. I have the Gustard X12 DAC which has both balanced and RCA outputs, so I'm wondering if anybody with experience with this one would be able to tell me if they think that the X12 delivers better sound through the balanced section than SE?
  
 Also as I've never bought balanced cables I'm wondering if somebody can tell me where is a cheap/good one? THANKS!


----------



## lancevance117

decentlevi said:


> Hello folks, I just read from a very reputable Head-Fi'er that the Liquid Carbon amp has a special implementation that allows both balanced and RCA inputs to deliver equally good sound into this amp - but I'm wondering if that may be depending on the DAC; some may have better SE sections and others may have better balanced sections than other. I have the Gustard X12 DAC which has both balanced and RCA outputs, so I'm wondering if anybody with experience with this one would be able to tell me if they think that the X12 delivers better sound through the balanced section than SE?
> 
> Also as I've never bought balanced cables I'm wondering if somebody can tell me where is a cheap/good one? THANKS!


 
 I do have both gustard x12 and h10, and tried both types of connections, and both of the interconnects are 6N OCC, I have been using RCA cables before my XLR cables arrive and after I switch the cables, I do feel an immediate change, soundstage expansion and frequencies extensions are better. and the most obvious change is the volume, since unbalance gives 2.5Vrms and balance gives 5Vrms, YMMV


----------



## heliosphann

My (2nd) H10 will be here on Monday. Hope this one works!
  
 I was wondering, is there's any reason to get an O2 amp right now while it's so cheap? I assume it's overall more neutral than the H10? Was thinking it might be good for doing comparisons, etc...


----------



## lancevance117

heliosphann said:


> My (2nd) H10 will be here on Monday. Hope this one works!
> 
> I was wondering, is there's any reason to get an O2 amp right now while it's so cheap? I assume it's overall more neutral than the H10? Was thinking it might be good for doing comparisons, etc...


 
 get one then, it wont cost you a fortune, just 70bucks at MD


----------



## lancevance117

And hey guys, My friend just bought a S.M.S.L Sanskrit Pro, it uses the same DAC chip from AK380, the AK4490, we decided to do a shootout between the X12 and Sanskrit-Pro, stay-tuned


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks very much Lancevance, that's enough to convince me to try balanced.


----------



## lancevance117

decentlevi said:


> Thanks very much Lancevance, that's enough to convince me to try balanced.


 






Please leave you impression once you try balanced cables out


----------



## Noodlz

@DecentLevi just wanted to give my 2cents on this. Personally for the H10 i think the XLR is far superior than the RCA. I'm using a the Yulong D200 as the DAC to the H10 via XLR. To my ears and a couple of my friends who tested it (i had them do a blind test) the XLR is distinctlvely better, and the morrow MA-3 XLR cables i bought was also distinctlvely better than the Canare Quad Star XLRs. But as always, YMMV.


----------



## DecentLevi

Sorry guys, there may have been a misunderstanding. I was asking about balanced versus SE output of my X12 DAC to help me plan my routing to the Liquid Carbon amp. I posted on this thread because I've known the H10 thread to be used by a lot who also own the X12, but since I'm getting the LC, I may not get the H10. So if you'd still like to hear my results on balanced versus SE to the LC amp here let me know, otherwise I'll just post on the LC thread.


----------



## BassDigger

There's also this thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs


----------



## BassDigger

sunneebear said:


> I just want to add one thing that I forgot to mention in my last post.
> 
> The Burson opamps come with socket risers.  With the riser on they will be too tall to close the cover.  No risers is the perfect height but the corners of the opamp will touch the two red rectangular caps beside the opamp sockets.  I used a Dremel tool to grind away the corners to make them fit.  I tried with a small jewelers or hobby file and that works too.  Just be careful and I guess a grinder or belt sander will also work.


 


tretneo said:


> Looks like Burson Audio likes what you've done here!
> 
> http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-headphone-amplifier-opamp-mod/


 
  
 If they're paying so much attention, to H10 owners, are they supplying the op-amp boards pre-cut and ready to fit?


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> If they're paying so much attention, to H10 owners, are they supplying the op-amp boards pre-cut and ready to fit?


 

 He used a dremel to fit it.
 Is there any hint of the h2o unit specs ? Patience of the Buddha here...


----------



## Jhya

decentlevi said:


> Sorry guys, there may have been a misunderstanding. I was asking about balanced versus SE output of my X12 DAC to help me plan my routing to the Liquid Carbon amp. I posted on this thread because I've known the H10 thread to be used by a lot who also own the X12, but since I'm getting the LC, I may not get the H10. So if you'd still like to hear my results on balanced versus SE to the LC amp here let me know, otherwise I'll just post on the LC thread.




I have the X12 dac hooked up with the XLR to the H10 and at the same time the RCA out into the bottlehead crack. The X12 can output to both simultaneously.

The bottlehead crack sounds fantastic on my HD650 through the RCA input.

I'm using my LCD2f with the balanced input of the H10. The sound of the LCD2f is much more detailed than the HD650, but the mid bass has less impact than the HD650. I would say the LCD2f is more toward neutral and buttery smooth on the H10 vs the HD650 on the crack which has that warm tubey sound and oh so fun! I'm enjoying both of my headphones so much!!!


----------



## DDDamian

jhya said:


> I have the X12 dac hooked up with the XLR to the H10 and at the same time the RCA out into the bottlehead crack. The X12 can output to both simultaneously.
> 
> The bottlehead crack sounds fantastic on my HD650 through the RCA input.
> 
> I'm using my LCD2f with the balanced input of the H10. The sound of the LCD2f is much more detailed than the HD650, but the mid bass has less impact than the HD650. I would say the LCD2f is more toward neutral and buttery smooth on the H10 vs the HD650 on the crack which has that warm tubey sound and oh so fun! I'm enjoying both of my headphones so much!!!


 
 +1 but I have the pre-fazor and the deep bass through the LCD2.2's and the Gustard is very good. The 650 does indeed go better with the Crack.


----------



## BassDigger

lohb said:


> He used a dremel to fit it.
> Is there any hint of the h2o unit specs ? Patience of the Buddha here...


 
  
 Yeah. One slip and you could mess up your, not so inexpensive, op-amp replacements, for good!
  
 I'd rather that Burson recognised this fitment problem and supplied the modules ready-to-fit. They're touting that they're a good upgrade, for this amp. But there's no mention of the fact that they don't actually fit!!!
  
 I've only just got the H10 (and my missus can't understand why; "it looks the same" as my other one!). But I'm very curious about the 'H20'. Especially, if it's got some pre-outs.


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> But I'm very curious about the 'H20'. Especially, if it's got some pre-outs.


 
 H20 ? god noooo it's 'H2o'... (H 2 oooooh).....both liquid and transparent....hopefully


----------



## tretneo

bassdigger said:


> Yeah. One slip and you could mess up your, not so inexpensive, op-amp replacements, for good!
> 
> I'd rather that Burson recognised this fitment problem and supplied the modules ready-to-fit. They're touting that they're a good upgrade, for this amp. But there's no mention of the fact that they don't actually fit!!!


 
  
 I emailed them and asked about this. Haven't heard back yet, will post a followup if/when I do.


----------



## swannie007

Don't hold your breath!


----------



## tretneo

swannie007 said:


> Don't hold your breath!




Ha, are they known to be unresponsive?


----------



## mandrake50

tretneo said:


> I emailed them and asked about this. Haven't heard back yet, will post a followup if/when I do.


 

 Do let us know. I just ordered a set. I have the tools to notch the board, but it would be real nice if they are just plug and play.


----------



## olek

jhya said:


> I have the X12 dac hooked up with the XLR to the H10 and at the same time the RCA out into the bottlehead crack. The X12 can output to both simultaneously.
> 
> The bottlehead crack sounds fantastic on my HD650 through the RCA input.
> 
> I'm using my LCD2f with the balanced input of the H10. The sound of the LCD2f is much more detailed than the HD650, but the mid bass has less impact than the HD650. I would say the LCD2f is more toward neutral and buttery smooth on the H10 vs the HD650 on the crack which has that warm tubey sound and oh so fun! I'm enjoying both of my headphones so much!!!


 

 I second HD650 on Crack. This is combination I rock for last 2 weeks pretty much non-stop. Have you Speedball-ed your Crack? Curious because there is world of difference in sound details with and without Speedball.
  
 By the way,
@Liu Junyuan
  
 My apologies for saying before that DT880 sound is much superior to HD650. My gear was simply not resolving enough at a time to see it straight (inferior cables robbed much of detail from sound). I do like DT880/600 tonal balance very much, but they scale only so far. HD650 scales much higher, pulling detail from music I never imagined was there, while being very musical. Even that I do not love their tonal balance, I am very willing to forgive it for that sound. Therefore, my best records get HD650 because it reveals so much about them, my worst albums get HD650 because it is not so sibilant and hides poor bright mastering very well, and only about 20% of my music does sound better on DT880. Quite a 180 turn for me. So glad I did not sell HD650.
  
 Oh, and by the way - HD650 scale to that hight only out of Crack/Speedball. Out of H10 there is not that much difference between DT880 and HD650 in detail/3d.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

olek said:


> I second HD650 on Crack. This is combination I rock for last 2 weeks pretty much non-stop. Have you Speedball-ed your Crack? Curious because there is world of difference in sound details with and without Speedball.
> 
> By the way,
> @Liu Junyuan
> ...




No worries at all. Glad youre enjoying the hobby. I felt the same way about the versatility and scalability you mention. The HD650s scale very well with gear and sound great with most recordings. The DT-880s thrive on good recordings and acoustic, real instruments. They are both very fine headphones. I wonder if a certain tube configuration is more suitable for scaling the DT-880 "higher". Depending on which version of the DT-880 you have (600 ohm or 250), your ideal choices may vary.


----------



## tretneo

I just got a reply from Dennis over at Burson Audio Sales. Great news 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


> If you use the buy now link to order your mod pack and put in a note in your Paypal payment I can make the special cut out for you on the two single opamp module which will allow you to plug in your opamp without soldering and closing off the lead with no trouble. The opamp will then be the perfect fit for your H10.
> 
> http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-headphone-amplifier-opamp-mod/
> 
> ...


 
  
 He asked me to pass the word on to the rest of you. Enjoy!


----------



## DDDamian

I'd be interested in hearing more about the sonics from anyone giving this a go. Would be nice if there were a tad more dynamics and a slightly less-warm sound from the H10. My guess is the warmth comes more from the capacitors and filters than the op-amps, but curious all the same.


----------



## tretneo

Here's a post from a couple pages back that goes into a little detail. So far as I know this is the only user to have done this particular mod, perhaps he'd be willing to elaborate regarding the dynamics and warmth.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/2790#post_11785808


----------



## Jhya

olek said:


> I second HD650 on Crack. This is combination I rock for last 2 weeks pretty much non-stop. Have you Speedball-ed your Crack? Curious because there is world of difference in sound details with and without Speedball.
> 
> By the way,
> @Liu Junyuan
> ...


 
  
 My Crack has the speedball installed 2 weeks after I've completed my original Crack. The sound is very different than the stock. I believe the sound tightened up and became more detailed.
 This is a list of upgrades I've done to the crack (with biggest difference first):
  
 1. Speedball upgrade
 2. Upgraded default GE 6080 tube to Bendix 6080WB (the GE was way too bright and not resolving at all. The Bendix is huge huge step up. The soundstage increased dramatically, more detail and the sound was really smooth and enjoyable.
 3. Retrofitted the input tubes to allow the use of 7119 and 5687 tubes and corrected the voltages with DPDT and 4PDT switches. The 7119 PQ tube is my favorite tubes for its amazing dynamic details and soundstage. The default RCA cleartop I got sounds boring in comparison, but the cleartop is still a very nice tube.
 4. Upgraded the output caps with 100uf 250V film caps, and bypassed with 1uf film cap. Also bypassed the last power cap with 2.2uf film cap. The lows became more impactful and the bass extended much lower on the HD650. The sounds were also cleaner.
 5. Changed the default volume control with a Valab 23 step 100k ladder type attenuator. I believe the sound was more balanced and clearer. The left and right channels became more resolving.
 6. Changed the signal wires with Cardas copper chassis wires. Also I have DIY RCA interconnects with the same Cardas copper wires. The sound at first was very soft and warm, I thought something was wrong. But after couple days of burn in, the sound cleared up and the soundstage increased. Much better than default cables.
  
 I also bought a Norne Audio Solv X headphone cable for the LCD2f with HD650 adapters. The difference between the HD650 stock cable is very substantial. The stock cable I believe is giving the HD650 that dark tone people are describing with rolled off treble and muddy sound. The Solv X brought the sound forward and makes every single note sound crystal clear and amazing. The bass I believe also tighter and more extended. The sound is a little brighter but never fatiguing. The improvement on the LCD2f is also very dramatic in the same way. I would say the cable made a huge improvement to the overall enjoyment of both of my headphones.


----------



## sunneebear

tretneo said:


> I just got a reply from Dennis over at Burson Audio Sales. Great news
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You need to let them know one of the dual's in the back needs a notch on one side.


----------



## swannie007

tretneo said:


> Ha, are they known to be unresponsive?


 

 I must eat humble pie on this one and apologise for casting any doubts on Bursons' response to a customer enquiry. To Dennis @ Burson, my apologies.
 The reason for my original comment was due to the fact that, on average, Australian commerce is not very customer service oriented. This has been my experience but perhaps it may be because I lived in the USA for many years prior to coming to live in Australia and was accustomed to very good customer service, by and large. I have just grown accustomed to mediocre customer service and accept it as a way of life over here. I must also say, before I get roasted, that I ALWAYS treat others in the fashion that I wish to be treated so that there is no excuse for bad service due to a bad attitude on my end. Perhaps things will improve as time passes and our economy becomes more competitive due to e commerce taking business away from local businesses with poor customer service. I am always surprised, and pleased, when I get good customer service from a local company and always compliment them when I do.
 Just my 2c worth. Again, my apologies to Dennis at Burson.


----------



## mylica

dddamian said:


> I'd be interested in hearing more about the sonics from anyone giving this a go. Would be nice if there were a tad more dynamics and a slightly less-warm sound from the H10. My guess is the warmth comes more from the capacitors and filters than the op-amps, but curious all the same.


 

 @*DDDamian* , change your single op-amp to AD797.  Has more dynamics and speeds with better detail, slightly less warm.  If you want more sparkle, you can add LME49860.
  
 I suggest you give a try. 
  
 I am using AD797, LME49860.  Few people here using the same.  I have been trying different op-amp, so far AD797 + stock dual and AD797 + LME49860 is good.  Not expensive op-amps.


----------



## lancevance117

mylica said:


> @*DDDamian* , change your single op-amp to AD797.  Has more dynamics and speeds with better detail, slightly less warm.  If you want more sparkle, you can add LME49860.
> 
> I suggest you give a try.
> 
> I am using AD797, LME49860.  Few people here using the same.  I have been trying different op-amp, so far AD797 + stock dual and AD797 + LME49860 is good.  Not expensive op-amps.


 
 to my experience, i don't think ad797 give less warm, but the other way around, warmer sound and better midrange instead, i am using ad797 + LME49860 as well. my words on this setup compared to the stock opa134 + ne5532 is, LME49860 is sparkle sounding, well, it irritated my ears when the time my ad797 hasn't arrived, aka opa134 + lme49860, afterwards, i switched opa134 to ad797, and the ad797 did tame the sparkle from LME49860 and return to stock h10 like sound, warmth and detailed, but with even better detail thanks to the LME49860. YMMV


----------



## DDDamian

Hey thanks guys for the feedback on op-amps. I have a couple to roll and will give it a shot. The Burson option opens up some possibilities too. Nice feature of this amp.

Great thread guys - you're very helpful!


----------



## BassDigger

dddamian said:


> Hey thanks guys for the feedback on op-amps. I have a couple to roll and will give it a shot. The Burson option opens up some possibilities too. Nice feature of this amp.
> 
> Great thread guys - you're very helpful!


 
 +1
  
 Yeah; I second that. I've actually been trying to keep a record of the op-amp comments, made on this thread; I've never done it before, but op-amp rolling has always seemed like a very useful practise.
  
 Now I've got an H10, I think that I'll be looking for an op-amp change that can even out the treble, without sacrificing (or will further improve) the rest of the fs.
 My amp's not properly burnt in, yet (40ish hours). But the treble seems to have a mixed character; the _mid_-treble is often excessive, whilst the _upper_-treble seems somewhat rolled off.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

I actually contacted Pollychen not too long ago about the H20, this was the response:
  
 "sorry to answer youso late.
the factory has not produced h20,they are just producing x20,
it will be available on the end of JULY
thanks"
  
 So sounds like no such thing as a H20 exists yet.


----------



## lancevance117

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> I actually contacted Pollychen not too long ago about the H20, this was the response:
> 
> "sorry to answer youso late.
> the factory has not produced h20,they are just producing x20,
> ...


 
 nope, H20 do exist, I have informed (possibly) the designer of H10,X12,X20...etc. and he told me that H20 shall be available later this year.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

lancevance117 said:


> nope, H20 do exist, I have informed by the (possibly) designer of H10,X12,X20...etc. and he told me that H20 shall be available later this year.


 
 That's good news. Do you have any idea of like a month of release or any pricing?


----------



## lancevance117

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> That's good news. Do you have any idea of like a month of release or any pricing?


 
 please take this with a grain of salt, no idea on price, but release month would be around November and/or December. FYI, They are working hard on mass producing X20.


----------



## genclaymore

I currently using two LT1498's with the Two AD797BRZ and I liking it so far, I had it with the LME49860 but I didn't like it, Two LT1213's also worked very well with the AD797Brzs too at-least for me.


----------



## Lohb

genclaymore said:


> I currently using two LT1498's with the Two AD797BRZ and I liking it so far, I had it with the LME49860 but I didn't like it, Two LT1213's also worked very well with the AD797Brzs too at-least for me.


 

 Hi, how would you describe the current pair of chips you have vs stock ?


----------



## mylica

genclaymore said:


> I currently using two LT1498's with the Two AD797BRZ and I liking it so far, I had it with the LME49860 but I didn't like it, Two LT1213's also worked very well with the AD797Brzs too at-least for me.


 
 Any reason why BRZ instead of AN?
  
 Yeas LME49860 sometime can be too sharp for ears.


----------



## lancevance117

mylica said:


> Any reason why BRZ instead of AN?
> 
> Yeas LME49860 sometime can be too sharp for ears.


 
 BRZs are “technically" better than ANs, but I doubt they will make any difference with our application, audio


----------



## genclaymore

mylica said:


> Any reason why BRZ instead of AN?
> 
> Yeas LME49860 sometime can be too sharp for ears.


 
 The major reason why was the affordable as I saw a deal where I could get two BRZ together already on single adapters. Then the other reason I read many times that the BRZ and AN are different so I decided to get the Brz because of the results i seen people with it got, Their sound signature is what I was wanted in comparison to the AN that they compared it to. Yea I know results could had been different do to the different design of the H10 or any other devices. But I wanted to do this right once and not face palm and have to buy the other AD797 because I didn't think it would had made any differences.  I replaced the LT1357 with the AD797BRZ's as I found the LT1357 with. But yea all the AN's I could find was Two pairs on adapters and cost too much and didn't fit my needs because of that.


----------



## walbum4262

Does anyone know who manufactures this amp ? And have a link to to the company ?


----------



## ansi

walbum4262 said:


> Does anyone know who manufactures this amp ? And have a link to to the company ?


 
  
 Gustard manufactures Gustard H10. The company has no website. The closest you can get is this: http://www.seowon-audio.com/


----------



## walbum4262

thank you ansi


----------



## genclaymore

lohb said:


> Hi, how would you describe the current pair of chips you have vs stock ?


 

 I haven't heard stock for a long time now but the first thing i remembered was the bass was too boomy and the sound stage to me was small which did improved after burn in, the OPA134 was the first op-amps i replaced with the dual channel ones being next.
  
 With the current pair of chips I using now, the sound is open the bass is tight and hits hard and deep and the sound stage was wide and very good. I have to give my setup a listen again as I haven't been using it for a week as I been using my Receiver + speakers. But that what I remembered from it.
  
 I went thru many op-amp pairings til i got it where I like it, LT1124+L1357 was good too but the bass heavy and hitting very hard and had lot of mid bass too while the sound stage was good on it too, the bass from the two was too much for me.
  
 While LT1124+AD797BRZ was a good pairing to me too, Same with the LME49860 and LT1357 pairing.
  
 So was the LT1213+AD797BRZ which to me was Wide sound stage, Spacious,Tight hard Hitting bass,with Airly Sound.


----------



## stuartmc

genclaymore said:


> I haven't heard stock for a long time now but the first thing i remembered was the bass was too boomy and the sound stage to me was small which did improved after burn in, the OPA134 was the first op-amps i replaced with the dual channel ones being next.
> 
> With the current pair of chips I using now, the sound is open the bass is tight and hits hard and deep and the sound stage was wide and very good. I have to give my setup a listen again as I haven't been using it for a week as I been using my Receiver + speakers. But that what I remembered from it.
> 
> ...


 
 Good stuff guys!   There are so many permutations/flavors that with some effort, anyone's tastes can be accomodated.  Here was my take on it several pages back:
  
 "The 797, 2604 combination retains more of the original H10's character. The added detail and drive of the 797 comes through nearly the same as it does with the stock 5532's- Perhaps with just a little more clarity. It's pretty subtle and without the benefit of direct a/b testing I take my own findings with the appropriately sized grain of salt.

 The 823 was a different story. This one I could hear more plainly. Hard to say whether it is passing the 797's sound with less filter, or adding its own mojo on top of it. Either way, it's the sound I have been looking for. If you were wishing that your H10 was just a little less warm, had a smidge more upper treble energy, more fine detail and a little more imaging, than the 797/823 combo is it. Maybe Analog Devices has a house sound, our maybe these opamps were designed to be synergistic together. Whatever it is, they sound wonderful in the H10...and that's MY kind of wonderful. You guys can have fun finding your own flavor."


----------



## Jhya

Just wondering if there are any OP AMPS to roll on the Gustard X12 DAC?


----------



## genclaymore

The X12 doesn't have any swappable op-amps just the H10. I recall seeing pictures of the X9 which does but its rare and jacked up in price past the cost of the X12 and you be better off getting the X12 any way.


----------



## Lupino

I'm waiting to get my HD700 phones which I will be using with my H10. Hopefully there will be good synergy between phones and amp.
 Are there op amps which would help with that pairing?
  
 I was using HD650 phones but found them a bit dark. Its probably my abused old ears too. I'm looking for more treble and higher frequencies
 in my listening because of my high frequency hearing loss. Also, I'm a drummer and I like to hear the hi-hats and ride cymbal very clearly.


----------



## DDDamian

lupino said:


> I'm waiting to get my HD700 phones which I will be using with my H10. Hopefully there will be good synergy between phones and amp.
> Are there op amps which would help with that pairing?
> 
> I was using HD650 phones but found them a bit dark. Its probably my abused old ears too. I'm looking for more treble and higher frequencies
> in my listening because of my high frequency hearing loss. Also, I'm a drummer and I like to hear the hi-hats and ride cymbal very clearly.


 
 I think the HD700 will pair better - I also found the H10 too dark with the 650. It's taming my HD800's treble nicely though.


----------



## mmlogic

tretneo said:


> Looks like Burson Audio likes what you've done here!
> 
> http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-headphone-amplifier-opamp-mod/


 
 Just placed an order, now the cost of OP rolling has officially surpassed the amp.


----------



## Arnotts

The H10 + HD650 pairing sounds good in the grand scheme of things, but you can do better for the Senn's. I personally prefer the Vali with the HD650's.
  
 I'm not a big fan of the H10 + HD800 pairing. It's serviceable, but it does not play to the HD800's strengths. Imo it just makes the HD800's sound more like it's trying to be a pair of Audeze headphones. 
  
 I absolutely love how the H10 pairs with the DT880's, DT250's and planar magnetic headphones in general, though 
  
 My H10 is completely stock, btw. Not interested in rolling op-amps.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

Anyone has or had Yulong DA8? 
  
 I would like to know how does X12 stack with H10 compare with DA8 or DA8II..


----------



## lancevance117

guys, we have compared the smsl sanskrit pro and the gustard x12, the result was, resolution(details) on par with x12 ( this is where i really impressed, since the opponent uses the infamous, resolution oriented es9018), however, the quality of the rest: bass quantity/quality/impact is inferior, mids feels a bit mis-located, and highs are a bit harsh(less refined) than the x12. well, that's it for this little tiny review.


----------



## GioF71

What version is exactly the "smsl sanskrit pro"? Can you provide a link?
 I own both a SMSL Sanskrit and a Gustard X12, and I surely can't agree with your statement.
  
 EDIT: I read a little too fast. Still I can't agree on the consideration about the resolution. It seems to me the X12 betters the Sanskrit dac under every aspect. At least that's my opinion.


----------



## lancevance117

giof71 said:


> What version is exactly the "smsl sanskrit pro"? Can you provide a link?
> I own both a SMSL Sanskrit and a Gustard X12, and I surely can't agree with your statement.
> 
> EDIT: I read a little too fast. Still I can't agree on the consideration about the resolution. It seems to me the X12 betters the Sanskrit dac under every aspect. At least that's my opinion.


 
 nah, sanskrit pro is sanskrit pro, not the old sanskrits', just out for less than a week at 1398RMB (around 225USD) at Taobao, which uses AK4490 as the DAC chip (same chip from Astell and Kern's new "exotic" flagship AK380). here is the link 
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.1.rsZzPq&id=520853621797&ns=1&_u=tqia14o6cbc&abbucket=5#detail


----------



## GioF71

HA!
 Didn't see that DAC yet. It seems quite a different beast.
 Did you try it with the standard switching PSU or did you use some linear PSU?


----------



## lancevance117

giof71 said:


> HA!
> Didn't see that DAC yet. It seems quite a different beast.
> Did you try it with the standard switching PSU or did you use some linear PSU?


 
 sanskrit pro comes as a set, linear psu + DAC + amp, namely: sanskrit-lps, sanskrit-pro and sanskrit-pha. Yet only sanskrit-pro is out now, so we can't compare sanskrit-pro with its linear psu vs x12, and well, it is unlikely we will test that anyway, since my friend (who bought sanskrit-pro) decided to go with valhalla 2（ he is using hd650)


----------



## GioF71

OK thanks. 
  
 How would you compare this Sanskrit Pro against the regular Sanskrit?
  
 The regular Sanskrit seems to me a very basic dac. No more than honest. A little better with SPDIF coax input than with USB; still it has problems with 176.4 and 192kHz sampling rates, maybe because of the switching PSU.


----------



## BassDigger

Hey guys, remember the sister thread?
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs


----------



## lancevance117

giof71 said:


> OK thanks.
> 
> How would you compare this Sanskrit Pro against the regular Sanskrit?
> 
> The regular Sanskrit seems to me a very basic dac. No more than honest. A little better with SPDIF coax input than with USB; still it has problems with 176.4 and 192kHz sampling rates, maybe because of the switching PSU.


 
 sorry but we don't own the regular sanskrit so we can't compare
  


bassdigger said:


> Hey guys, remember the sister thread?
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs


 
 there is no "standalone" x12 thread, and according to the link you give out, the "x12 review" is as well in this thread, so i don't see the problem for giving review/discussion to something related to gustard, no?


----------



## BassDigger

lancevance117 said:


> there is no "standalone" x12 thread, and according to the link you give out, the "x12 review" is as well in this thread, so i don't see the problem for giving review/discussion to something related to gustard, no?


 
  
 It just seems like one of these two threads should be closed down. Perhaps the other one; nobody posts there, even when they're discussing 'amplifiers and dacs'!


----------



## lancevance117

bassdigger said:


> It just seems like one of these two threads should be closed down. Perhaps the other one; nobody posts there, even when they're discussing 'amplifiers and dacs'!


 
 and that is one of the reason why i'd rather post it here


----------



## BassDigger

....or maybe this one should be closed down, 'cos it is just the amplifier thread.


----------



## auvgeek

bassdigger said:


> It just seems like one of these two threads should be closed down. Perhaps the other one; nobody posts there, even when they're discussing 'amplifiers and dacs'!


 

 I think the opposite: someone should start an X12 DAC thread. The general Gustard thread should be about the brand and upcoming products, and this one should stay about the H10 amp. Problem solved!


----------



## LostDog54

I recently received the Gustard X12. I was wondering what the mini cd I received with it was for. I have noticed that the X12 always reads 44.1 on the screen even when I am streaming music from Tidal. I thought that the bit rate would be higher than that. Is the mini cd to install the software to use higher bit rate streams or change the bit rate?
 Please excuse my ignorance on the matter. As you all know, the x12 does not come with a  manual.  Thanks ahead of time for any help and/or advice.


----------



## pippen99

lostdog54 said:


> I recently received the Gustard X12. I was wondering what the mini cd I received with it was for. I have noticed that the X12 always reads 44.1 on the screen even when I am streaming music from Tidal. I thought that the bit rate would be higher than that. Is the mini cd to install the software to use higher bit rate streams or change the bit rate?
> Please excuse my ignorance on the matter. As you all know, the x12 does not come with a  manual.  Thanks ahead of time for any help and/or advice.


 

 That would be the Windows drivers.


----------



## amigomatt

Hi everyone, I'm planning on pulling the trigger on this amp, especially for use with my HE560.  I'm currently using either my Cayin C5 or speaker taps from an old Arcam Alpha 8, running through an HRT Microstreamer.  There a good price of about £230 on ebay at the moment, which is a lot cheaper than the Violectric I had in mind.  Will I find it a good combo?  More impressive than my current set up?  As a side note, can anyone tell me what I might have to spend to get a DAC that's a significant upgrade and if that would be worth it?  I know, quite vague requests but someone here might have similar gear to me.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## LostDog54

Ok. So not applicable if running a Macbook Pro? Will the bit rate change automatically? Or do I have to change it manually? I thought that tidal would be streaming at a much higher bit rate. I am on the free trial so if it the bit rate is not higher what is the point? Thanks again.


----------



## DDDamian

Does Tidal do more than Redbook 16/44.1khz? I'd be surprised as that's the vast majority of the music out there (that hasn't been compressed). Most FLAC's are Redbook.
  
@amigomatt - it'll pair nicely with planars and will give them more juice than the Cayan, in a very smooth, warm and musical way.As to DACs there's a ton in the $300-$500 range which are very good. Have a look through the classifieds here for a deal to get you some more for your money.


----------



## sunneebear

amigomatt said:


> Hi everyone, I'm planning on pulling the trigger on this amp, especially for use with my HE560.  I'm currently using either my Cayin C5 or speaker taps from an old Arcam Alpha 8, running through an HRT Microstreamer.  There a good price of about £230 on ebay at the moment, which is a lot cheaper than the Violectric I had in mind.  Will I find it a good combo?  More impressive than my current set up?  As a side note, can anyone tell me what I might have to spend to get a DAC that's a significant upgrade and if that would be worth it?  I know, quite vague requests but someone here might have similar gear to me.
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 Get rid of the HRT.  I put my music on my ipod classic and run a line out dock to the H10 and it sounds better.


----------



## lancevance117

lostdog54 said:


> I recently received the Gustard X12. I was wondering what the mini cd I received with it was for. I have noticed that the X12 always reads 44.1 on the screen even when I am streaming music from Tidal. I thought that the bit rate would be higher than that. Is the mini cd to install the software to use higher bit rate streams or change the bit rate?
> Please excuse my ignorance on the matter. As you all know, the x12 does not come with a  manual.  Thanks ahead of time for any help and/or advice.


 
 that is the case when you are not having bit-perfect stream, can you elaborate more on your "mini cd" thing?


----------



## LostDog54

I was told that the mini cd was a windows drivers disc. My chain is MacBook Pro -->Gustard X12 --> gustard H10 --> Audeze LCD-2.2F or K7XX or K553. RCA connection between the X12 and H10. Schiit usb cable from MacBook Pro to X12. Sources: Tidal(free trail), spotify, iTunes downloads and cd's that have been uploaded to iTunes library,


----------



## BassDigger

auvgeek said:


> I think the opposite: someone should start an X12 DAC thread. The general Gustard thread should be about the brand and upcoming products, and this one should stay about the H10 amp. Problem solved!


 
  
 Maybe it's worth a try. But the general thread, as you put it, is already little used, because people so often discuss x12, x20 and others dacs on this thread (this isn't the first time).
 If there's little enough discussion, as it is, why would another thread need starting? And if another thread was started, history has shown that people just have their dac discussion on this, the amplifier thread, anyway!
  
 I'm not saying "No OT!"; I'm not a hypocrite; some different topics keep a thread alive and interesting. But it's a balancing act; some rationale and etiquette should be followed. But the same OT discussion keeps hijacking this thread, and there's clearly another thread where that discussion should be taking place.
  
 So, I still think that my point is valid. Why is it so difficult to select the correct thread (to have a discussion about dacs)? There's only a choice of two; one includes dacs; the other doesn't.


----------



## lancevance117

lostdog54 said:


> I was told that the mini cd was a windows drivers disc. My chain is MacBook Pro -->Gustard X12 --> gustard H10 --> Audeze LCD-2.2F or K7XX or K553. RCA connection between the X12 and H10. Schiit usb cable from MacBook Pro to X12. Sources: Tidal(free trail), spotify, iTunes downloads and cd's that have been uploaded to iTunes library,


 
 if so, you are using a MacBook with a "mini cd" "windows" driver, and what kind of OS are you using now? windows or MacOS? can you elaborate more on this?
  
 the problem i see now is, first of all, according to my memory, if you are using MacOS, they do not offer bit-perfect streaming, for example, using itunes with MacOS, anything higher than 44100/16 (cd redbook) will be resampled to 44100/16, secondly, tidal, spotify, itunes downloads and even your CD-rips are NOT so-called "high-resolution" audio , in other words, higher than the 44100hz sampling rate and 16bits bit-depth, so there is no way for you to observe any higher sampling rate on your x12 if you are not feeding the appropirate("high-res") signals


----------



## fritobugger

lostdog54 said:


> I was told that the mini cd was a windows drivers disc. My chain is MacBook Pro -->Gustard X12 --> gustard H10 --> Audeze LCD-2.2F or K7XX or K553. RCA connection between the X12 and H10. Schiit usb cable from MacBook Pro to X12. Sources: Tidal(free trail), spotify, iTunes downloads and cd's that have been uploaded to iTunes library,


 
  
 It sounds like all your source material has been sampled down to MP3 or AAC so the bit rates are not hi res or even Red Book/CD quality anymore.


----------



## lancevance117

bassdigger said:


> Maybe it's worth a try. But the general thread, as you put it, is already little used, because people so often discuss x12, x20 and others dacs on this thread (this isn't the first time).
> If there's little enough discussion, as it is, why would another thread need starting? And if another thread was started, history has shown that people just have their dac discussion on this, the amplifier thread, anyway!
> 
> I'm not saying "No OT!"; I'm not a hypocrite; some different topics keep a thread alive and interesting. But the same OT discussion keeps hijacking this thread, and there's clearly another thread where that discussion should be taking place.
> ...


 
 if this is a thread ONLY discuss on PURELY Gustard H10, this thread would not be active for 192 pages, and most of us here offers help, so would you please?


----------



## BassDigger

lancevance117 said:


> if this is a thread ONLY discuss on PURELY Gustard H10, this thread would not be active for 192 pages, and most of us here offers help, so would you please?


 
  
 That's not my point; I actually agree with you. If you'd read my post _(pre OR post edit)_ properly, you'd see that.


----------



## LostDog54

So my source is the problem? And if I don't change the source, MacBook Pro, I will continue to have my material sampled down? Instead of a MacBook Pro, what would you recommend for a new source? Is there any way to get the MacBook Pro not to compress or sample down my material. Streaming music from tidal would the new source not have the same problem as I am experiencing now? 
Sorry for so many questions and thanks to everyone who has chimed in with advice.


----------



## mmlogic

lostdog54 said:


> So my source is the problem? And if I don't change the source, MacBook Pro, I will continue to have my material sampled down? Instead of a MacBook Pro, what would you recommend for a new source? Is there any way to get the MacBook Pro not to compress or sample down my material. Streaming music from tidal would the new source not have the same problem as I am experiencing now?
> Sorry for so many questions and thanks to everyone who has chimed in with advice.


 
 I think your problem is iTune not MacBook Pro, try Audirvana Plus or other music player that can play HD music properly.


----------



## sunneebear

mmlogic said:


> I think your problem is iTune not MacBook Pro, try Audirvana Plus or other music player that can play HD music properly.


 
 I run itunes on my PC and I just have to set the sound settings to 24/192.  I know nothing about Mac and very little about PC but I think there must be some settings for Mac.


----------



## LostDog54

Yeah I am no IT guy either. Not much of a computer guy at all. Thats why I have a Mac, haha. I just love music. Before posting about his little issue I had looked for the settings to change the bit rate and just found it. It had the options I was looking for and the X12 now reads 384K. I think I fixed it. Or is the bit-rate that is streaming still not actually at what its reading. How would I get a better bit rate if this is not a true fix? Thanks for everyone who has chimed in. All of the comments have been helpful. I really appreciate the advice and everyone share their knowledge.


----------



## Rynsin

The tool to change the output sample rate and bitrate is called "Audio MIDI Setup." Search for it with Spotlight, or open it from it's normal location in /Applications/Utilities/.
  
 If you are using TiDAL, everything on there is 44/16. So select your H10 from the right side (might show up as "USB Audio Device" or something) and choose 44100Hz and 16bit from the dropdown menus.
  
 It's also probably a good idea to make sure your DAC is configured correctly physically (wires fitting well, nothing loose) if you are getting noise.
  
 The problem is almost certainly *not* your MacBook Pro. It's much more likely to be an issue with your DAC or your player. The MBP is a totally fine transport (I say transport because, IMHO, the MacBook isn't being used a source when it is connected to your DAC. In that setup, your DAC is the source).
  
 Edit: to be more clear, I think what others before me have mentioned is that if your *source files* (like, the actual digital audio) is low quality (MP3s or AACs), then your DAC is already hamstringed. Computer scientists have a little aphorism: GIGO. It means Garbage In, Garbage Out. If you're feeding your DAC compressed audio, it can't render it "bit perfect" because the incoming bits were themselves imperfect.
   
Now, whether or not 44/16 FLAC is considered "high-res" audio is another debate entirely. Personally I have a hard time discerning between 16 and 24 bit FLAC, although I certainly can do it on a few songs that I really know well. For "casual listening" I find Redbook (44/16) FLAC to be perfectly acceptable. But for testing a setup or critical listening, you should go as high as your DAC can carry you (although I think the X12 might be a delta-sigma DAC... which, if the Schitt Audio folks are to be believed, means your higher frequency rate might not matter too much).

  
 I think Chesky Records has a few free high definition (196/24) FLAC files for download. iTunes can't play FLAC, so use a different player (VLC is free and perfectly capable) in order to test it.
  
 Edit2: removed snarky Babbage quote.


----------



## sahmen

Has anybody paired this unit with a hifiman he-6? I would like to know whether they make a good pair or not.  Thanks in advance for any helpful input.


----------



## daltonlanny

sahmen said:


> Has anybody paired this unit with a hifiman he-6? I would like to know whether they make a good pair or not.  Thanks in advance for any helpful input.




Not a great pairing.
HE-6 sounds somewhat thin and bass is somewhat lacking with the Gustard H10.
H10 doesn't really have enough output power to even begin bringing the best out of the HE-6, IMHO.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, another question for the Gustard X12 owners:
  
 Is there any improvement over the *HDMI versus USB* connection? I remember reading earlier in this thread about either the *coax or optical* giving the most pristine sound, but for that I would need the U12 converter box.
  
 I think @stuartmc may have experience with this, or anybody else? I'm currently using USB via Wyrd USB signal enhancer. Thanks in advance...


----------



## lancevance117

decentlevi said:


> Hello, another question for the Gustard X12 owners:
> 
> Is there any improvement over the *HDMI versus USB* connection? I remember reading earlier in this thread about either the *coax or optical* giving the most pristine sound, but for that I would need the U12 converter box.
> 
> I think @stuartmc may have experience with this, or anybody else? I'm currently using USB via Wyrd USB signal enhancer. Thanks in advance...


 
 just in time, i have tried out USB vs COAXIAL input yesterday, and they sounded quite similar in fact, but after some "critical listening“, i actually feel that USB performs better, to be more precise, bass have both better control and impact, not sure if this is true or just in my brain.
  
 p.s. my test might not be accurate as well, since i didn't use/don't have a dedicated coaxial cable, it's just a 3.5mm -> stereo RCA.
 the setup are as follows:
 USB: PC -> X12 -> H10 -> he400
 Coaxial: DX90 -> 3.5mm to stereo RCA -> X12 -> H10 -> he400


----------



## pippen99

I have run three different configurations and frankly can't tell the difference.
  
 1)  HP lap USB - X12 - H10
  
 2)  Ipad Gen 2 - Pure I20 dock - Coax(also stereo RCA) - X12 - H10
  
 3)  Ipad Gen 2 - Pure I20 dock - Optical - X12 - H10
  
 The only advantage was the Pure configurations had the benefit of a remote(when it worked), no real SQ advantage that I could discern.


----------



## sahmen

daltonlanny said:


> Not a great pairing.
> HE-6 sounds somewhat thin and bass is somewhat lacking with the Gustard H10.
> H10 doesn't really have enough output power to even begin bringing the best out of the HE-6, IMHO.


 
 daltonlanny:  Thanks for the response.


----------



## Arnotts

decentlevi said:


> Hello, another question for the Gustard X12 owners:
> 
> Is there any improvement over the *HDMI versus USB* connection? I remember reading earlier in this thread about either the *coax or optical* giving the most pristine sound, but for that I would need the U12 converter box.
> 
> I think @stuartmc may have experience with this, or anybody else? I'm currently using USB via Wyrd USB signal enhancer. Thanks in advance...


 
 I use a Wyrd... but not with the X12. I've never tried it with the X12, and in all honesty I'm happy with the U12 > X12. I like the Wyrd with the M-DAC.
  
 I run the X12 with the U12 via I2S. The USB input is a little bit harsh in the upper frequencies. I never really noticed until I compared it to the I2S input from the U12 and hooked up a pair of HD650's. With Audeze headphones, the harshness isn't as apparent.
  
 Sorry I can't tell you how well the Wyrd helps the X12 with its USB input, though!


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks much guys. I'm already using the Wyrd to my X12 DAC, and I think the sound is good but I'm just wondering if it can potentially be had better.
  
 It seems maybe none of you have tried HDMI into the X12, from a computer. Maybe one of you have an extra HDMI cable laying around, or can temp. borrow the one from your TV - just to test it out to see if maybe this connection has any advantage or not. Anyway just an idea


----------



## GioF71

decentlevi said:


> Hello, another question for the Gustard X12 owners:
> 
> Is there any improvement over the *HDMI versus USB* connection? I remember reading earlier in this thread about either the *coax or optical* giving the most pristine sound, but for that I would need the U12 converter box.
> 
> I think @stuartmc may have experience with this, or anybody else? I'm currently using USB via Wyrd USB signal enhancer. Thanks in advance...


 
  
 Hello, while I cannot give a final answer, I can share my current experience with the Gustard X12 DAC.
 The DAC is currently connected to 2 distinct computers:
  
 1) *Dedicated music player* (ubuntu server + mpd + upmpdcli) with a dedicated Linear PSU, FT 146 from italian brand ZetaGI
 Atom PC with ubuntu server/mpd/upmpdcli -> AudioQuest Cinnamon USB 0.75m -> Schiit Wyrd -> AudioQuest Cinnamon USB 0.75m -> Gustard U12 -> Ricable 0.5m HDMI Cable (italian brand again) -> Gustard X12 
  
 2) *General purpose PC* (i5 3300K IIRC)
 PC -> AQVox linear USB PSU -> Audioquest Cinnamon USB 1.5m -> Gustard X12.
  
 The DAC is then connected (via XLR) to a Gustard H10 which I use to drive my current best headphones, a pair of Sennheiser HD650. All listening impressions are done with these headphones.
 Also, a desktop amplifier (SMSL SA50) is connected via RCA to the X12. I am using JBL Control One speakers.
  
 Well, the first chain sounds *quite a lot* better than the second.
  
 As you can see, there are more differences than the simple usb vs hdmi connection, last but not least the fact the pc is dedicated to playing music. No other tasks are running on that pc.
 I have found that using a general purpose PC for playing music is very detrimental to the listening experience, especially if you do stuff (browsing, but especially, in my case, heavy file transfering/manipulation).
 I don't consider using software like fidelify or similar because I think they simply defeat the idea of using a general purpouse pc, so I set-up this dedicated linux machine instead.
  
 Anyway for clarification, I can tell you the first chain sounds better than the second even when nothing but foobar is running on the desktop PC. The difference is more subtle, but it's still there.
  
  
 My .02€
  
  
 EDIT: some corrections


----------



## DecentLevi

I believe the improvement in sound quality from the 1st setup mentioned above could be from any number of factors, but has nothing to do with how many tasks are running on either of the devices. Some of these factors that could be making your first system sound better could be the digital media player that it uses, the bit/sample-rate at which it's playing,  the fact that you are using both Wyrd and U12, and even the volume which being louder can actually make something sound better.
  
 In all my approx. 20 years of listening to music with computers, I have never perceived one slightest inkling of difference on sound quality whether the computer is at an extremely low vs. extremely high CPU usage - except of course when the CPU / RAM gets full enough to the point that it causes audible stuttering or in-out signal loss. Otherwise, ALL modern computers use (vague approximation) about 30-50 processes / tasks, and around 2-3x more service running simultaneously - even the PC that you thought had only the digital media player running must have had at least half that many running concurrently. Modern computers are designed to be elaborate multi-tasking machines, and a simple digital audio player may only account for less than 1% of your computers' total processing power.
  
 I will call this one a hypothesis, unless serious scientific testing is done with data show otherwise; -AND- if that difference is audible in a blind test.


----------



## lancevance117

decentlevi said:


> Thanks much guys. I'm already using the Wyrd to my X12 DAC, and I think the sound is good but I'm just wondering if it can potentially be had better.
> 
> It seems maybe none of you have tried HDMI into the X12, from a computer. Maybe one of you have an extra HDMI cable laying around, or can temp. borrow the one from your TV - just to test it out to see if maybe this connection has any advantage or not. Anyway just an idea


 
 I think you have mis-interpreted the use of the HDMI port on X12, that is I2S interconnect(not "quite" the regular HDMI plug and play thing), so it shall not work if you plug the HDMI cable directly from your source (eg. PC） to X12. Hopes that help!


----------



## GioF71

lancevance117 said:


> I think you have mis-interpreted the use of the HDMI port on X12, that is I2S interconnect(not "quite" the regular HDMI plug and play thing), so it shall not work if you plug the HDMI cable directly from your source (eg. PC） to X12. Hopes that help!


 
  
 Uhm, I think I didn't.
 The I2S connection is realized by a regular HDMI cable.
 It does work for me and it even carries the DSD flow.


----------



## lancevance117

giof71 said:


> Uhm, I think I didn't.
> The I2S connection is realized by a regular HDMI cable.
> It does work for me and it even carries the DSD flow.


 
 i didn't try that out in fact, and if so, who(which output and by what means) is responsible for the transport from PC to X12? thanks


----------



## GioF71

decentlevi said:


> I believe the improvement in sound quality from the 1st setup mentioned above could be from any number of factors, but has nothing to do with how many tasks are running on either of the devices. Some of these factors that could be making your first system sound better could be the digital media player that it uses, the bit/sample-rate at which it's playing,  the fact that you are using both Wyrd and U12, and even the volume which being louder can actually make something sound better.
> 
> In all my approx. 20 years of listening to music with computers, I have never perceived one slightest inkling of difference on sound quality whether the computer is at an extremely low vs. extremely high CPU usage - except of course when the CPU / RAM gets full enough to the point that it causes audible stuttering or in-out signal loss. Otherwise, ALL modern computers use (vague approximation) about 30-50 processes / tasks, and around 2-3x more service running simultaneously - even the PC that you thought had only the digital media player running must have had at least half that many running concurrently. Modern computers are designed to be elaborate multi-tasking machines, and a simple digital audio player may only account for less than 1% of your computers' total processing power.
> 
> I will call this one a hypothesis, unless serious scientific testing is done with data show otherwise; -AND- if that difference is audible in a blind test.


 
  
 There are surely more factors differentiating the two setups, but I can definitely hear differences (for worse) depending on cpu load. This may not be due to cpu load, but from more than normal noise generated by ethernet adapter, hard disks (though there are SSDs on the PC) and whatever. I just don't know what is the exact cause.
  
 But the result is a distinct degradation of the sound quality.
 The player does work under load. Jitter and transmission errors probably rise in such conditions.
 Maybe some expert can give us a better explaination.
  
 I simply do not believe in A/B comparisons.
 I know I can clearly spot when my system is playing mp3 instead of (real) lossless. My wife always ends up choosing some crappy mp3s and I immediately recognize how bad they sound.
  
 But under A/B test conditions if A is very close to B I end up trying to focus on some details, so I tend to get it wrong after a few iterations. 
 So I think it's a waste of time. At least for me


----------



## GioF71

lancevance117 said:


> i didn't try that out in fact, and if so, who(which output and by what means) is responsible for the transport from PC to X12? thanks


 
  
 Maybe you saw different I2S connections around.
 Some units have I2S connection implemented with a RJ45 connector. Some use HDMI. It is still I2S.
 Audio-GD for example has many dacs using RJ45 I2S connections.
  
 In the case of RJ45, I read a regular network cable is not up to the task, while in the case of hdmi, a regular tv cable worked just fine. The cable I bought later is better (or, it's a placebo effect).
 I don't have any RJ45/I2S DAC around.
  
 The I2S (by means of the HDMI cable) flows between the Gustard U12 and the Gustard X12. 
 Consider the Schiit Wyrd, functionally, as an expensive one-port USB Hub. It just passes the USB signal.
 I think it's worth trying it and I have elements to clearly sustain this thesis (not related to the current setup).
  
 Hope this helped.


----------



## auvgeek

decentlevi said:


> Is there any improvement over the *HDMI versus USB* connection? I remember reading earlier in this thread about either the *coax or optical* giving the most pristine sound, but for that I would need the U12 converter box.
> 
> I think @stuartmc may have experience with this, or anybody else? I'm currently using USB via Wyrd USB signal enhancer. Thanks in advance...


 

 Do you have an HDMI cable laying around? If so, why not give it a shot yourself and report back?


----------



## lancevance117

giof71 said:


> Maybe you saw different I2S connections around.
> Some units have I2S connection implemented with a RJ45 connector. Some use HDMI. It is still I2S.
> Audio-GD for example has many dacs using RJ45 I2S connections.
> 
> ...


 
 aha, i see the problem now, according to what @DecentLevi said,


decentlevi said:


> Thanks much guys. I'm already using the Wyrd to my X12 DAC, and I think the sound is good but I'm just wondering if it can potentially be had better.
> 
> It seems maybe none of you have tried HDMI into the X12, from a computer. Maybe one of you have an extra HDMI cable laying around, or can temp. borrow the one from your TV - just to test it out to see if maybe this connection has any advantage or not. Anyway just an idea


 
 My guess is that what he means was, finding any HDMI port from the PC and plug it in to the X12 and audit the difference between HDMI and USB
  


decentlevi said:


> Hello, another question for the Gustard X12 owners:
> 
> Is there any improvement over the *HDMI versus USB* connection? I remember reading earlier in this thread about either the *coax or optical* giving the most pristine sound, but for that I would need the U12 converter box.
> 
> I think @stuartmc may have experience with this, or anybody else? I'm currently using USB via Wyrd USB signal enhancer. Thanks in advance...


 

 and my guess is that, such setup will not work, and on top of that, i completely understand that the I2S interconnect between interfaces (U12) and DACs (X12) harnessing HDMI port can be connected using regular HDMI cables.
 please correct me if i am wrong
  
 EDIT: revise


----------



## GioF71

Right! I thought it was clear the HDMI connection was between the interface and the dac and not between the PC and the DAC directly.
 Just did not notice the ambiguity.
  
 Quote:


lancevance117 said:


> aha, i see the problem now, according to what @DecentLevi said,
> My guess is that what he means was, finding any HDMI port from the PC and plug it in to the X12 and audit the difference between HDMI and USB
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DecentLevi

I don't have an HDMI cable now, but from what you folks have said it looks like it may be able to work (connected directly from the laptop to the X12).
  
 And GioF71 I could suspect that possibly high CPU usage could cause a very nuance change in sound quality, if it's on a very old computer that doesn't have much specs to properly handle a high level of multi-tasking. Otherwise it could just be a 'placebo effect'. A legit way to test your theory however may be to plug a digital audio recorder into the output of your DAC or amp and make several recordings of the same portion of the same songs: one during low and another during high CPU usage. From there play back both recordings in rapid succession to A/B them to see if you can hear any difference. Or load up the waveforms of each recording to inspect for differences visually.


----------



## GioF71

decentlevi said:


> I don't have an HDMI cable now, but from what you folks have said it looks like it may be able to work (connected directly from the laptop to the X12).
> 
> And GioF71 I could suspect that possibly high CPU usage could cause a very nuance change in sound quality, if it's on a very old computer that doesn't have much specs to properly handle a high level of multi-tasking. Otherwise it could just be a 'placebo effect'. A legit way to test your theory however may be to plug a digital audio recorder into the output of your DAC or amp and make several recordings of the same portion of the same songs: one during low and another during high CPU usage. From there play back both recordings in rapid succession to A/B them to see if you can hear any difference. Or load up the waveforms of each recording to inspect for differences visually.


 
  
 Well the dedicated computer is an Intel Atom D510, the other is an Intel I5 3300K. 
 The difference is in what the two computers are doing, in my opinion.
  
 Recording the output is a good idea. Unfortunately I do not have a dedicated recorder but I could use a third computer with a Asus Xonar Essence STX which I already used to record from analog outputs. Let's hope the STX is neutral when recording.
  
 Will try to do this in the next few weeks.


----------



## GioF71

decentlevi said:


> I don't have an HDMI cable now, but from what you folks have said it looks like it may be able to work (connected directly from the laptop to the X12).


 
  
 Sorry but you cannot connect the HDMI output of your pc to the hdmi input of your dac.
 What you need is an interface, like (for example) the Gustard U12.


----------



## railrus

just purchase H10 from taobao ..... so excited!
  
 btw anyone experienced with HE560 found gain need to be increased? originally using +6 and having to change to +12?
  
 PC via Asus STX digital output to 
 Benchmark DAC2 HGC to
 Gustard H10 using single end rca 
 Hifiman HE560
  
 not expecting anything till 50~200hrs breaking in of course


----------



## Rynsin

decentlevi said:


> I believe the improvement in sound quality from the 1st setup mentioned above could be from any number of factors, but has nothing to do with how many tasks are running on either of the devices. Some of these factors that could be making your first system sound better could be the digital media player that it uses, the bit/sample-rate at which it's playing,  the fact that you are using both Wyrd and U12, and even the volume which being louder can actually make something sound better.
> 
> In all my approx. 20 years of listening to music with computers, I have never perceived one slightest inkling of difference on sound quality whether the computer is at an extremely low vs. extremely high CPU usage - except of course when the CPU / RAM gets full enough to the point that it causes audible stuttering or in-out signal loss. Otherwise, ALL modern computers use (vague approximation) about 30-50 processes / tasks, and around 2-3x more service running simultaneously - even the PC that you thought had only the digital media player running must have had at least half that many running concurrently. Modern computers are designed to be elaborate multi-tasking machines, and a simple digital audio player may only account for less than 1% of your computers' total processing power.
> 
> I will call this one a hypothesis, unless serious scientific testing is done with data show otherwise; -AND- if that difference is audible in a blind test.


 
  
 Totally off-topic, but I wanted to point out that your approximation of 30-50 processes and 2-3x more services running is almost exactly spot on for a machine operating with ~8 applications open at once. On a Mac (or Linux, or nearly any *nix system), you can get an exact number by opening up a terminal and running "ps aux | wc -l". Currently, my machine has around 230 processes running at once.
  
 I'm starting to write my own audio engine, so I've recently had some experience with possible factors that can influence playback. It's worth noting that audio playback itself is not a single process, but actually at least three simultaneous processes (although it may appear in programs like the task manager as a single application). One process* reads in your media (say FLAC) from your filesystem and pushes it to the decoder process. The decoder process decodes that FLAC file into PCM audio (similar to WAV format), and sends it to a mixer process. The mixer process accepts the PCM-encoded audio and sends to the hardware mixer, in this case over USB. If you have a spectral analyzer or a VU meter or another visualizer, that might be another link in the chain, or it might be computed in parallel.
  
 Since processors are tasked with running over 200 simultaneous tasks at once, but generally only have 1 - 8 cores, the operating system will do something called "context switching." Essentially, the operating system will, thousands of times per second (potentially), "evict" a process from the CPU and swap in a process that has been waiting. By doing this extremely quickly, the operating system creates an illusion that all 200+ tasks are running at the same time.
  
 So, if one is streaming 192Hz audio, which samples 192 times per second, couldn't such context switching be a problem if any of the three required processes aren't allowed to cycle at least 192 times per second? Absolutely. But, most good audio players tell the scheduler "hey, I'm a real-time media application playing at sample rate X" and the scheduler says "OK, I'll make sure you get enough time." And generally, the scheduler does this pretty well (it's worth noting that the scheduler used in the Linux kernel -- a multi-level queue with some advanced features -- is *substantially* better at doing this than the Windows scheduler). As DecentLevi noted, sometimes the computer gets so bogged down that the scheduler can't make its commitment, which generally happens when the computer experiences significant loads.
  
 The Atom processor is a special case. It is designed to use extremely low power and is not very good at multi-tasking. Even running the scheduling algorithm itself can be stressful to these lightweight cores. They also tend to work with much lower voltage gaps (the amount of measured difference in a transistor to decide if a bit is a 0 or a 1), which makes them more susceptible to noise. This could potentially be a problem in an audio scenario, although I highly doubt it. Even these processes are executing cycles in gigahertz -- well above any sampling rate a human can discern. My only point here is that while a scheduler on a "full" CPU is almost certainly never going to give a media process less cycles than it needs unless the CPU is about to keel over. An Atom CPU, on the other hand... you can still be almost entirely certain, but not to the same extent.
  
 Now, what kinds of degradation are actually possible? CPUs and RAM have ECC (error correcting codes) and a lot of fault-detection methods. Essentially, when a fault is detected, the required value is recomputed. That means that noise in an Atom system can result in a lot of redundant cycles, and a possible gap in the music. It is absolutely absurd to imply that the bits coming out of the USB could be any different. So the degradation from load on a machine (or noise in the power supply) is only going to show itself as either "skips" or "gaps" in the music, or as sub-discrete noise in the USB connection itself (which your Wyrd will take care of).
  
 GioF71, it seems like you know what's going on computer wise (MPD + Linux) -- I'd love to get your opinion. And of course anyone else in the thread as well. 
  
 * I say process here, but more than likely they are implemented as threads.
  
  


giof71 said:


> Hello, while I cannot give a final answer, I can share my current experience with the Gustard X12 DAC.
> The DAC is currently connected to 2 distinct computers:
> 
> 1) *Dedicated music player* (ubuntu server + mpd + upmpdcli) with a dedicated Linear PSU, FT 146 from italian brand ZetaGI
> ...


 
  
  
 Alright... I have to ask about the cinnamon cables. Bits are bits. I thought the AudioQuest argument was that traditional USB cables pushed additional noise into the DAC via sub-discrete variations in the single. If that's the case, then why run Computer -> Expensive USB -> Wyrd -> Expensive USB -> Gustard when doing Computer -> Regular USB -> Wyrd -> Expensive USB -> Gustard would produce the same results? Can you tell the difference?
  
 Dedicated linear PSU and the MPD setup is sweet. I've been thinking of building something like that for a long time now in a MicroITX (MiniITX? I can never remember...) case, but I would grab a more powerful CPU.
  


giof71 said:


> There are surely more factors differentiating the two setups, but I can definitely hear differences (for worse) depending on cpu load. This may not be due to cpu load, but from more than normal noise generated by ethernet adapter, hard disks (though there are SSDs on the PC) and whatever. I just don't know what is the exact cause.
> 
> But the result is a distinct degradation of the sound quality.
> The player does work under load. Jitter and transmission errors probably rise in such conditions.
> ...


 
  
  
 You're going to have to explain the A/B testing bit to me. I understand trying to "overfocus" and getting the wrong answer, but it still seems like some kind of blind testing is required to differentiate between confirmation bias ("I feel good about my setup, so now I will hear better things." Kind of like how food you cook yourself tastes better regardless...).
  
 Have you tried A/B/X testing?
  
  


giof71 said:


> Well the dedicated computer is an Intel Atom D510, the other is an Intel I5 3300K.
> The difference is in what the two computers are doing, in my opinion.
> 
> Recording the output is a good idea. Unfortunately I do not have a dedicated recorder but I could use a third computer with a Asus Xonar Essence STX which I already used to record from analog outputs. Let's hope the STX is neutral when recording.
> ...


 
  
 Can you connect your i5 box to the same chain as the atom box and compare?
  
  
  
  
 Also, general question about the Wyrd -- seems like BS to me. Reclocking USB? Maybe that could matter if you had a really crappy USB controller on your mobo. Or some really bad cables. Or a terrible PSU. But in normal conditions... can you describe how it changes the sound w.r.t the Gustard?


----------



## BassDigger

Still, page after page of dac discussion, on this, *the amp thread*, when there's a perfectly good Gustard amp and *DAC* thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Why? I don't understand.
 Are you morons or simpletons? If you're the latter, then fair enough; you can't help it.


----------



## BassDigger

railrus said:


> just purchase H10 from taobao ..... so excited!
> 
> btw anyone experienced with HE560 found gain need to be increased? originally using +6 and having to change to +12?
> 
> ...


 
  
 My 2 cents:
  
 It seems like you may have a low output, from your dac, compared to my set-up, anyway. After initially setting the gain to +6, I've now returned it to zero. I still do most of my listening with the volume rarely over the 10 o'clock position. This is with the LCD2 BTW.
 Perhaps the he560 are considerably harder to drive. But others here have mentioned getting good results from 'double-amping'. This suggests that maybe the rca input, on the H10, is a little fussy; maybe it doesn't always match very well, with the source that it's connected to.
  
 Have you got another source that you can connect to the H10?


----------



## lancevance117

rynsin said:


> Totally off-topic, but I wanted to point out that your approximation of 30-50 processes and 2-3x more services running is almost exactly spot on for a machine operating with ~8 applications open at once. On a Mac (or Linux, or nearly any *nix system), you can get an exact number by opening up a terminal and running "ps aux | wc -l". Currently, my machine has around 230 processes running at once.
> 
> I'm starting to write my own audio engine, so I've recently had some experience with possible factors that can influence playback. It's worth noting that audio playback itself is not a single process, but actually at least three simultaneous processes (although it may appear in programs like the task manager as a single application). One process* reads in your media (say FLAC) from your filesystem and pushes it to the decoder process. The decoder process decodes that FLAC file into PCM audio (similar to WAV format), and sends it to a mixer process. The mixer process accepts the PCM-encoded audio and sends to the hardware mixer, in this case over USB. If you have a spectral analyzer or a VU meter or another visualizer, that might be another link in the chain, or it might be computed in parallel.
> 
> ...


 
 good read
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  


bassdigger said:


> Still, page after page of dac discussion, on this, *the amp thread*, when there's a perfectly good Gustard amp and *DAC* thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 care?


----------



## amigomatt

sunneebear said:


> amigomatt said:
> 
> 
> > Hi everyone, I'm planning on pulling the trigger on this amp, especially for use with my HE560.  I'm currently using either my Cayin C5 or speaker taps from an old Arcam Alpha 8, running through an HRT Microstreamer.  There a good price of about £230 on ebay at the moment, which is a lot cheaper than the Violectric I had in mind.  Will I find it a good combo?  More impressive than my current set up?  As a side note, can anyone tell me what I might have to spend to get a DAC that's a significant upgrade and if that would be worth it?  I know, quite vague requests but someone here might have similar gear to me.
> ...


 
 Hi.  Have you heard the HRT?  I found it to be one of the single most worthwhile upgrades to my audio chain ever.  I was skeptical about significant improvements through DACs at the lower end of the price scale but this little unit completely blew me away.  It's so far an obvious improvement above any of my portable devices and my Asus STX soundcard that I'm quite sure I'd need to spend a good chunk more to get anything better.  Running the direct line out even into my friend's budget separates hifi made such an immediate improvement in SQ that she bought one herself.
  
 Back to topic, does anyone own the HE560s who could compare this H10 to the Violectrics?  Is the extra price of the Violectric worth it?


----------



## sunneebear

amigomatt said:


> Hi.  *Have you heard the HRT?*  I found it to be one of the single most worthwhile upgrades to my audio chain ever.  I was skeptical about significant improvements through DACs at the lower end of the price scale but this little unit completely blew me away.  It's so far an obvious improvement above any of my portable devices and my Asus STX soundcard that I'm quite sure I'd need to spend a good chunk more to get anything better.  Running the direct line out even into my friend's budget separates hifi made such an immediate improvement in SQ that she bought one herself.
> 
> Back to topic, does anyone own the HE560s who could compare this H10 to the Violectrics?  Is the extra price of the Violectric worth it?


 
 Sorry, misread your post to be the HRT _Music Streamer_ which is most grainy thin sounding DAC's  I have ever used.


----------



## GioF71

rynsin said:


> Also, general question about the Wyrd -- seems like BS to me. Reclocking USB? Maybe that could matter if you had a really crappy USB controller on your mobo. Or some really bad cables. Or a terrible PSU. But in normal conditions... can you describe how it changes the sound w.r.t the Gustard?


 
  
 Hello Rynsin.
 I can't answer to all the questions right now, especially to those which require change of configurations/connections on the two system. But, I will do the tests and mix the chains.
 I will surely answer all the questions as soon as possible.
  
 But I'd like to tell you the story of my Schiit Wyrd first.
 My thoughts were exactly the same as yours. Until something happened.
  
 I bought a usb-spdif interface in the second half of last year. Would rather not mention the brand and the seller. The unit might simply be defective, and the seller, in the end, refunded me completely. So, I do not have a lot to complain of.
  
 Said interface (INTF-A), Tenor based, was not working reliably at any sampling rate beyond 48kHz.
 I tried everything: a linear psu (it was optional: the unit should have worked with usb power), different cables (usb, coax and optical), different computers and operating systems (windows, Linux)
 Nothing worked. All my dacs worked when connected to the asus xonar essence stx's spdif out. So the dacs were not the culprits.
  
 Then I decided to buy a new interface (INTF-B), XMOS based, not usb powered, no wall-wart, but with the psu inside the interface box itself.
 The same seller (a french site) was also selling the Schiit Wyrd: I considered it was worth the change to try this unit with INTF-A.
 The seller was kind enough to tell me I could buy the unit and send them back in 15 days (or so) for full refund if I simply do not need it or don't like it. Shipping expenses on me. Fair enough.
  
 Needless to say, INTF-B works great, with or without the Wyrd.
  
 And, actually, the Schiit Wyrd made the INTF-A usable. It worked.
 It does not work reliably with linux (this might be normal as I was told linux is not supported) so in the end I decided to send INTF-A back for a full refund, which I obtained.
  
 So, my conclusions:
  
 a) there is much to be improved in the usb output of a PC
 b) the Schiit Wyrd definitely DOES something good.
  
 So since then, I have no more doubts on how bad USB connection can be on a computer. Plain and simple, it is a fact for me now.
 Again needless to say, I kept the Schiit Wyrd and I will probably want to buy another one in the near future.


----------



## stuartmc

*NEWS FLASH......*
  
 The X-20 has landed!... probably the first unit for review outside of China and your humble Captain is manning the helm. The X20 is ensconced in my audio rack and break in has commenced with the Purist Audio System Enhancement disc. Further reports to come.   I may end up posting at....ahem, that other Gustard thread for Amps and *DACs, *or if interest warrants, I may start a completely new thread.


----------



## Rynsin

giof71 said:


> Hello Rynsin.
> I can't answer to all the questions right now, especially to those which require change of configurations/connections on the two system. But, I will do the tests and mix the chains.
> I will surely answer all the questions as soon as possible.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Interesting! Thanks for letting me on your experience there.
  
 I haven't had an issue with any of my USB devices, so maybe the Wyrd won't do much for my setup. My friend has one, though, and I've been wondering why my Arch box has such a hard time talking to my USB DAC (cuts in and out, suddenly stops, occasionally becomes very noisy). Maybe I'll borrow a Wyrd and see if it helps.
  
 If you have time to change your configuration around a bit in the future and post the results, I'd love to read about it.
  
 Thanks!
  
 Edit: can't wait, stuartmc. Looking forward to comparisons with other DACs.


----------



## mandrake50

bassdigger said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> It seems like you may have a low output, from your dac, compared to my set-up, anyway. After initially setting the gain to +6, I've now returned it to zero. I still do most of my listening with the volume rarely over the 10 o'clock position. This is with the LCD2 BTW.
> Perhaps the he560 are considerably harder to drive. But others here have mentioned getting good results from 'double-amping'. This suggests that maybe the rca input, on the H10, is a little fussy; maybe it doesn't always match very well, with the source that it's connected to.
> ...


 
 I did the same thing. Having read several people say that +6 was the sweet spot, I tried that first. It was OK for the 560, but the X1, 553 and HP50  had little volume travel before being too loud.
 I am back sitting at 0 DB now.  I have driven the H10 with the UD 301, Emotiva DC1, and Pulse Infinity using the balanced connections. I also find that I seldom exceed 10 O' Clock on the volume control using 0 DB with any of those DACs


----------



## GioF71

stuartmc said:


> *NEWS FLASH......*
> 
> The X-20 has landed!... probably the first unit for review outside of China and your humble Captain is manning the helm. The X20 is ensconced in my audio rack and break in has commenced with the Purist Audio System Enhancement disc. Further reports to come.   I may end up posting at....ahem, that other Gustard thread for Amps and *DACs, *or if interest warrants, I may start a completely new thread.


 
  
 yes please! A new thread dedicated to the new Gustard DAC (or, to Gustard DACs) would help not having so much O.T. on this thread


----------



## railrus

bassdigger said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> It seems like you may have a low output, from your dac, compared to my set-up, anyway. After initially setting the gain to +6, I've now returned it to zero. I still do most of my listening with the volume rarely over the 10 o'clock position. This is with the LCD2 BTW.
> Perhaps the he560 are considerably harder to drive. But others here have mentioned getting good results from 'double-amping'. This suggests that maybe the rca input, on the H10, is a little fussy; maybe it doesn't always match very well, with the source that it's connected to.
> ...


 
 Thanks! suddenly remembered i can change the output via jumpers in the dac. will try later again. btw i found the tonality with ESS Sabre 9018 and H10 seemed to work well (at least for new unit). no i do not have another dac and do not wish to change the combo for now 
  
 sounds promising and let it run its course


----------



## fritobugger

bassdigger said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> It seems like you may have a low output, from your dac, compared to my set-up, anyway. After initially setting the gain to +6, I've now returned it to zero. I still do most of my listening with the volume rarely over the 10 o'clock position. This is with the LCD2 BTW.
> Perhaps the he560 are considerably harder to drive. But others here have mentioned getting good results from 'double-amping'. This suggests that maybe the rca input, on the H10, is a little fussy; maybe it doesn't always match very well, with the source that it's connected to.
> ...




Interestingly, with my HE-500 I started at +6 but have gone back to the default setting also.

I run at 11 or 12 o'clock but the 560 is more efficient so it sure need less knob.


----------



## fritobugger

railrus said:


> Thanks! suddenly remembered i can change the output via jumpers in the dac. will try later again. btw i found the tonality with ESS Sabre 9018 and H10 seemed to work well (at least for new unit). no i do not have another dac and do not wish to change the combo for now
> 
> sounds promising and let it run its course




My M8 is also a Sabre and I like it with the H10.


----------



## lancevance117

fritobugger said:


> My M8 is also a Sabre and I like it with the H10.




Well, ur m8 uses es9018k2m, x12 is es9018s, they are different


----------



## BassDigger

fritobugger said:


> Interestingly, with my *HE-500 *I started at +6 but have gone back to the default setting also.
> 
> I run at *11 or 12 o'clock* but the 560 is more efficient so it sure need less knob.


 
  
 That makes some sense to me; the he400 needed a lot more knob (11-12 o'clock, rather 9-10 _(on my old amp)_) than my current lcd2.
 Now, even with the H10 gain settings back at zero, 10 o'clock is plenty loud for most recordings. I can save the knob for other things.


----------



## BassDigger

railrus said:


> Thanks! suddenly remembered i can change the output via jumpers in the dac. will try later again. btw i found the tonality with ESS Sabre 9018 and H10 seemed to work well (at least for new unit). no i do not have another dac and do not wish to change the combo for now
> 
> sounds promising and let it run its course


 
  
 According to at least one other user, the he560 isn't that power hungry. So, maybe you have just the answer with the output jumpers, on your dac. I guess that if the dac output really is just too low, then you may notice an overall sq improvement, once you get it set-up correctly.
  
 P.S. I've just done a little googling; it seems that perhaps only the xlr (not the rca) outputs are adjustable, on your dac (if I've researched the correct one).
 This is good news; you can get some balanced cables (they don't have to be pricey) and use those balanced inputs on the H10 (then you can start playing around with jumpers).


----------



## fritobugger

lancevance117 said:


> Well, ur m8 uses es9018k2m, x12 is es9018s, they are different




Yes but it still has the cooler Sabre sound.


----------



## railrus

bassdigger said:


> According to at least one other user, the he560 isn't that power hungry. So, maybe you have just the answer with the output jumpers, on your dac. I guess that if the dac output really is just too low, then you may notice an overall sq improvement, once you get it set-up correctly.
> 
> P.S. I've just done a little googling; it seems that perhaps only the xlr (not the rca) outputs are adjustable, on your dac (if I've researched the correct one).
> This is good news; you can get some balanced cables (they don't have to be pricey) and use those balanced inputs on the H10 (then you can start playing around with jumpers).


 
 currently the xlr goes to my Dynaudio speakers and one set RCA to H10 and another to my Rythmik F12 sub. yes only the xlr gain can be adjusted. i simply off the speakers / sub and open the pot on the dac for use with H10.
  
 thanks for the help!


----------



## mandrake50

I got the Burson  opamps. For anyone considering it, they did notch the boards so that they will fit without having to modify them.
 I hops to get time this weekend to get them plugged in and give the H10 a listen.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> *NEWS FLASH......*
> 
> The X-20 has landed!... probably the first unit for review outside of China and your humble Captain is manning the helm. The X20 is ensconced in my audio rack and break in has commenced with the Purist Audio System Enhancement disc. Further reports to come.   I may end up posting at....ahem, that other Gustard thread for Amps and *DACs, *or if interest warrants, I may start a completely new thread.


 

 You lucky, lucky person! Cheers from Oz!


----------



## mikey1964

As you can see from the pic below, I'm the proud owner of a Gustard H10 + X12 DAC stack....

 I've been playing MP3's and WAV files, but can't get DSD to play on foobar. Can some kind soul please tell me how this can be done? Foobar configuration that works with the X12. I've tried but foobar and the X12 aren't playing nice for me, I'n sure I'd messed up config somewhere.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I was previously using Foobar with an iFi iDSD Nano.....oh yeah, I'd asked this question in the other Gustard thread as well.


----------



## stuartmc

mikey1964 said:


> As you can see from the pic below, I'm the proud owner of a Gustard H10 + X12 DAC stack....
> 
> 
> I've been playing MP3's and WAV files, but can't get DSD to play on foobar. Can some kind soul please tell me how this can be done? Foobar configuration that works with the X12. I've tried but foobar and the X12 aren't playing nice for me, I'n sure I'd messed up config somewhere.  I was previously using Foobar with an iFi iDSD Nano.....oh yeah, I'd asked this question in the other Gustard thread as well.




On the taobao X20 page they give a link for the foobar2000 Chinese DSD kitKit: http://pan.baidu.com/s/1bnwGCiF 

I use JRiver and the thysecon driver, so I have no experience with foobar and why this "kit" may be needed.


----------



## mikey1964

stuartmc said:


> On the taobao X20 page they give a link for the foobar2000 Chinese DSD kitKit: http://pan.baidu.com/s/1bnwGCiF
> 
> I use JRiver and the thysecon driver, so I have no experience with foobar and why this "kit" may be needed.


 
 Hey, thanks, will give this a try.....


----------



## Jhya

For my X12 DAC, I cannot get DSD to work at all with the XMOS 2.26 driver that's included in the mini-CD. Only the modified Thesycon 2.24 or Luckit 2.24 drivers work for me to enable DSD at 64, 128 & 256; also 2xDSD upsample works only with the modified driver.
  
 I'm using JRiver though, so that maybe different for foobar.
  
 I found Luckit 2.24 on a Russian site, if you google "Gustard Luckit 2.24"


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

Hi,
  
 I'm just about to pull the trigger on buying the Gustard H10 to pair with my HE-500's from Pollychen
 Is this a good idea or is waiting for the H20 a better idea. Keeping in mind I don't want to pay any more than what it's currently costing?
 Also, from reading....a lot....this appears to really be the best amp for the HE-500 (and maybe and planar) at this price.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## railrus

should remind myself how bad it will sound initially ..... ITS REALLY BAD! screechy highs, compressed, missing bass ....
  
 now 2 days later after continuous running with music and XLO burn in disc .....


----------



## pippen99

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm just about to pull the trigger on buying the Gustard H10 to pair with my HE-500's from Pollychen
> Is this a good idea or is waiting for the H20 a better idea. Keeping in mind I don't want to pay any more than what it's currently costing?
> ...


 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 To the best of my knowledge the H20 is not a replacement for the H10, simply a new upscale model.  The X20 is now available with a price approximately 60% higher than the X12.  If the H20 follows that pricing pattern that would put an H20 somewhere around $550.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

pippen99 said:


> To the best of my knowledge the H20 is not a replacement for the H10, simply a new upscale model.  The X20 is now available with a price approximately 60% higher than the X12.  If the H20 follows that pricing pattern that would put an H20 somewhere around $550.


 
 Thanks for the response, that's probably a good method of thinking.
 Considering the H20 is actually being designed and not completely based off the Violectric v200 with modifications it's probably going to cost more.
 Ordering the H10 now.


----------



## spaech

So I splashed out last week and ordered a pair of Audeze LCD2s (they are on backorder), and followed that up today by ordering a H10 and an SMSL M8 DAC to go with it. Holy jebus I'm excited.
  
 Also, apparently this is my first post after 8 years of being a member here, who knew.


----------



## stuartmc

spaech said:


> So I splashed out last week and ordered a pair of Audeze LCD2s (they are on backorder), and followed that up today by ordering a H10 and an SMSL M8 DAC to go with it. Holy jebus I'm excited.
> 
> Also, apparently this is my first post after 8 years of being a member here, who knew.


 
 And to think we popped your Head-Fi cherry right here on the Gustard thread.....shiver me timbers!


----------



## spaech

stuartmc said:


> And to think we popped your Head-Fi cherry right here on the Gustard thread.....shiver me timbers!


 
 I actually almost bought the O2 on massdrop for $70, but I had some uncertainty about whether it would truly drive the LCD2s properly. And I don't like doing things half-assed, so I ended up here. The H10 seems like it's good bang for buck, and I'm all about that.


----------



## mikey1964

Seriously, could someone post what components are required for Foobar2k and config, seriously getting quite ticked off at not being able to play DSD files. When I set Tools -> SACD -> PCM, it works up to 176kHz....set it higher and I get an unrecoverable error message. When I set it to DSD and hit the play button, I can see that the track is being played, but there is dead silence. Gustard really ought to work on support, when I got my iFi iDSD Micro, I had some issue playing DSD tracks, asked their tech support and was given a step-by-step guide, likewise with LHL Geek Pulse (even posted a general guide on their webby)......but man, this Gustard doesn't even come with a manual!


----------



## BassDigger

Guys, please !?!! Some OT is fine; it's what keeps a thread diverse and interesting. But if you're gonna totally change the subject, you need consider the other thread users; the dac conversation, in all its forms, keeps taking over this thread!
  
 You can post here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/300
  
 here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/749520/help-deciding-on-dac-need-some-input-on-gustard-dac-x12
  
 or even here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/770346/gustard-dac-x12-spdif-lost-lock
  
 I'd recommend the first one, as it's the most popular, it covers more topics and it's an offshoot of this, the AMPLIFIER thread.
 Thanks for your consideration


----------



## mikey1964

@ BassDigger, yes, perhaps I'm one of those who have gone OT, but tell me, in any of those other threads has anyone definitively answered my question about Foobar2000, native DSD playback with the X12? Do note that I've also asked this question on the first link you'd posted and have yet to get a definitive answer as to what components are needed as well as config for Foobar2000.


----------



## BassDigger

Mikey, I'm sorry; I don't know. All I'm saying is that this thread is not the best place to have that discussion.
  
 I hope that someone can help you soon. But, please try your best to use the correct thread.


----------



## mikey1964

bassdigger said:


> Mikey, I'm sorry; I don't know. All I'm saying is that this thread is not the best place to have that discussion.
> 
> I hope that someone can help you soon. But, please try your best to use the correct thread.


 
 Dude, if this thread were restricted to JUST the H10, it'd be pretty quiet (how the heck would it get to 197 pages if there weren't a little diversity?).....'sides, unless an actual mod say otherwise, a little diversity is fine by me (and I'm sure most who post here due to sheer lack of usable info about the X12 and DSD playback). If you don't like my post, simply put me on your ignore list....as well as those who have gone OT, then you'd have only the relevant posts that you so desire.


----------



## BassDigger

bassdigger said:


> Guys, please !?!! *Some OT is fine; it's what keeps a thread diverse and interesting.* But if you're gonna totally change the subject, you need consider the other thread users; the dac conversation, in all its forms, keeps taking over this thread!
> 
> ...


 


mikey1964 said:


> Dude,* if this thread were restricted to JUST the H10, it'd be pretty quiet (how the heck would it get to 197 pages if there weren't a little diversity?)...*..'sides, unless an actual mod say otherwise, a little diversity is fine by me (and I'm sure most who post here due to sheer lack of usable info about the X12 and DSD playback). If you don't like my post, simply put me on your ignore list....as well as those who have gone OT, then you'd have only the relevant posts that you so desire.


 
  
 I refer the honourable gentlemen to the response I gave earlier.
  
 Please (you and others), stop painting me with that (no OT!!) brush!
  
 If, we follow your train of thought and you're going to talk about whatever, where ever, what's the point in having different threads?
  
 Are you really suggesting that blocking each other is the correct solution?
  
 Life's too short for this....!!!


----------



## mikey1964

bassdigger said:


> I refer the honourable gentlemen to the response I gave earlier.
> 
> Please (you and others), stop painting me with that (no OT!!) brush!
> 
> ...


 
 Whoa, a backseat mod has spoken, so shall it be....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Other than a H10 being defective or combo of DAC's to be used with it, what's there to discuss? Headphones that 'suits' the H10, I personally like the synergy of the H10 and my HE400i and HE500. Tell, what else is there to talk about? You want a H10 circle jerk?
  
 Edit - I'd suggested the 'ignore' solution only because you seem to be the only one carrying on about OT. BTW, when did I ever talk about 'whatever'? Other than these silly replies to you, I've only talk about the X12. Let it NOT be said that I don't practise what I preach.....ignored!


----------



## BassDigger

So, it seems what you're saying is that _(Edit: This is clearly what you implied)_

if you cannot think of anything else to discuss, regarding the thread topic, it's ok for everyone to use that thread to write about anything they like. 
and a blocking based system is better than a thread system, to keep track of conversations.
  
 I was trying to help and do the right thing (for everyone, not just myself). But like you say, your replies are silly (among other things! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).


----------



## moriez

Hey look! By talking about OT it's now more OT 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Better give it a rest guys.
  
  
 Mikey, if you still need help check underneath post which gives you the option to send an email. Alternatively you can send ansi a PM and ask for help. He seems to have a direct line to Gustard.


ansi said:


> walbum4262 said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know who manufactures this amp ? And have a link to to the company ?
> ...


----------



## mikey1964

moriez said:


> Hey look! By talking about OT it's now more OT  Better give it a rest guys.
> 
> 
> Mikey, if you still need help check underneath post which gives you the option to send an email. Alternatively you can send ansi a PM and ask for help. He seems to have a direct line to Gustard.


Thanks, will pm ansi.....this is a most helpful post! Much appreciated.

I really dunno why some take it upon themselves to be armchair and backseat mods....:blink:


----------



## mikey1964

Guys, anyone else with high impedence cans experiencing random high pitch crackling? I was using my Beyerdynamic DT990 600ohms on the H10, I hear this random crackling. Swapped the DT990 with my HFM HE500 and I don't hear this crackling at all. Will try my HD700 and K812, I'll be back with my findings.


----------



## Jhya

mikey1964 said:


> Seriously, could someone post what components are required for Foobar2k and config, seriously getting quite ticked off at not being able to play DSD files. When I set Tools -> SACD -> PCM, it works up to 176kHz....set it higher and I get an unrecoverable error message. When I set it to DSD and hit the play button, I can see that the track is being played, but there is dead silence. Gustard really ought to work on support, when I got my iFi iDSD Micro, I had some issue playing DSD tracks, asked their tech support and was given a step-by-step guide, likewise with LHL Geek Pulse (even posted a general guide on their webby)......but man, this Gustard doesn't even come with a manual!


 
 This is a step by step instruction for getting Foobar to work with DSD:
  
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/how-play-dsd-file-using-foobar2000#E4619OiCRTDJAGqB.97
  
 You need to install a couple additional files: *foo_out_asio.fb2k-component, ASIOProxyInstall.exe & foo_input_sacd.dll*
  
 Also this website discusses the neutered XMOS driver that came with the mini-CD actually sounds worse and will not enable DSD. You need to install a FULL working version driver from Thesycon.
  
 http://soundex.ru/?app=forums&module=forums&controller=topic&id=41399&page=1
  
 The website suggests that you should really get off Foobar2k, as JRiver is in everyway much better.


----------



## olek

mikey1964 said:


> Guys, anyone else with high impedence cans experiencing random high pitch crackling? I was using my Beyerdynamic DT990 600ohms on the H10, I hear this random crackling. Swapped the DT990 with my HFM HE500 and I don't hear this crackling at all. Will try my HD700 and K812, I'll be back with my findings.


 
 No crackling at all.
  
 I have HD650, DT880/600 and used DT770/600 for short time, all sound pretty good on H10 with no crackling.
  
 Maybe this CRACKling is just a way H10 is communicating to you that Bottlehead Crack is even better for 600 Ohm phones 
  
 Listen closely, maybe there is even sound of little metal BALLS racing inside with incredible SPEED?


----------



## spaech

pippen99 said:


> I am that "recent contributor".  This is my first "Head-fi" system.  I do not have the experience or audio sophistication to point to a particular piece of equipment and say this is the culprit. I have done by best to describe what I have heard and the improvement as the equipment has burned in.
> 
> Perhaps this contributor is partially describing what I have heard.  I know I have lost the enjoyment in several of my favorite songs.  Several of the oldest Beatles songs and particularly The Doors Light My Fire are unlistenable now.  With the Beatles songs the guitar and vocals are all on the far right while the drums are alone on the left.  There is nothing in the center making it sound like everybody's playing in two rooms far apart.  The same for the organ solo in Light My Fire.  I never experienced this phenomenon with my mini-system + ultrasone HFI-2400.
> 
> Again I would point out that I have stated my limitations including suspect source material and hearing loss.  I am just looking for answers and help!


 
 Apologies for the necro-post, I'm currently mining this enormous thread while waiting for my H10 to arrive.
  
 My suggestion to pippen99 is to try introducing crossfeed to the signal, it might help a track that's mastered for speakers to sound more natural on headphones. The problem songs you're describing sound like good candidates for improvement with a bit of crossfeed. If you want to give it a try, you can download plugins for foobar (xfeed and ambio are two that I know of). Interested to hear if this helps.


----------



## SDBiotek

spaech said:


> Apologies for the necro-post, I'm currently mining this enormous thread while waiting for my H10 to arrive.
> 
> My suggestion to pippen99 is to try introducing crossfeed to the signal, it might help a track that's mastered for speakers to sound more natural on headphones. The problem songs you're describing sound like good candidates for improvement with a bit of crossfeed. If you want to give it a try, you can download plugins for foobar (xfeed and ambio are two that I know of). Interested to hear if this helps.



Many older recordings have instruments or vocals panned hard right or left. I've experienced that with some Beatles songs as well. The effect is more noticeable with headphones, since what each ear hears is separate. With speakers, each ear gets sound from both right and left channels. The crossfeed suggestion will definitely help.


----------



## BassDigger

The Beatles, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, even The Beach Boys....the list goes on. It was the early days of sterrerereo. I think that they got a bit carried away with trying to replicate their drug induced trips, in their recorded music. Probably that and the sound engineers were 'off their heads', as well!
  
 It makes for an 'interesting' listening experience. Especially with head phones!


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> The Beatles, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, even The Beach Boys....the list goes on. It was the early days of sterrerereo. I think that they got a bit carried away with trying to replicate their drug induced trips, in their recorded music. Probably that and the sound engineers were 'off their heads', as well!
> 
> It makes for an 'interesting' listening experience. Especially with head phones!


 
 Some of those benefit from cross-feed, and it does make it sound more speaker-like than headphone-like (takes it "out-of-your-head" and reduces hard pans), but like any DSP some folks like it, some don't. Get a plug-in that's adjustable for msec delay and HF roll-off.


----------



## sydneyaudio

So, after having good experiences with this amp I recommended it to a friend. He was really disappointed!
Had a listen to his rig and it did not sound good at all. Had a look and he was using the unbalanced inputs on the Gustard. We flipped the unbalanced dipswitch on the back on and the magic was there.
So what does that switch actually do?


----------



## DreamKing

If your H10 is connected balanced (XLR from a balanced dac), you flip the the switch to balanced, if it isn't (RCA) you switch it to unbalanced.


sydneyaudio said:


> So what does that switch actually do?


----------



## mandrake50

dreamking said:


> If your H10 is connected balanced (XLR from a balanced dac), you flip the the switch to balanced, if it isn't (RCA) you switch it to unbalanced.


 

 That is how one uses it, not what it does. I too would be interested in what it is doing to the circuit. Apparently it does not enable and disable the two inputs, at least not entirely. But when switched to the balanced position, it sure does a number on the SE inputs.


----------



## DreamKing

mandrake50 said:


> That is how one uses it, not what it does.


 
  
 I don't know what Balanced/XLR = balanced switch, unbalanced/SE/RCA=unbalanced switch doesn't tell you. It's the mechanic explained for anyone. You don't even need to read the labeling either, you know it's messed up just hearing the wrong setting.
  
 If you're after deeper technicalities of these simple switches, you won't find them from me but I guess contacting Gustard might help.


----------



## mandrake50

dreamking said:


> I don't know what Balanced/XLR = balanced switch, unbalanced/SE/RCA=unbalanced switch doesn't tell you. It's the mechanic explained for anyone. You don't even need to read the labeling either, you know it's messed up just hearing the wrong setting.
> 
> If you're after deeper technicalities of these simple switches, you won't find them from me but I guess contacting Gustard might help.


 

 What was the point of the reply if you can't answer the question? Just curious. Though you have no answer, there are lots of folks around here that know quite a bit about what goes on inside the equipment. One never knows, we could get a constructive answer right here.
  
 If not and I am curious enough, perhaps I will contact Gustard, though it has been sais that is difficult.


----------



## DreamKing

mandrake50 said:


> What was the point of the reply if you can't answer the question? Just curious. Though you have no answer, there are lots of folks around here that know quite a bit about what goes on inside the equipment. One never knows, we could get a constructive answer right here.
> 
> If not and I am curious enough, perhaps I will contact Gustard, though it has been sais that is difficult. Thanks for the unsolicited advice.


 
  
 I answered the question, I thought that's what he wanted to know. That's all it is. You felt the need to speak for him for some reason, what was the point of that? Just curious.
  
 Either way man, chill maybe someone will answer the question in the way you want, I obviously won't stop it from happening and never intended to, as I don't care about it.


----------



## sydneyaudio

Yeah guys, i realise the switch picks unbalanced input. The unbalanced input still works even when the switch is not in the on position, but does not sound as good.
Just curious what the switch does in the amp - how does it work?


----------



## BassDigger

dreamking said:


> I answered the question, I thought that's what he wanted to know. That's all it is. You felt the need to speak for him for some reason, what was the point of that? Just curious.
> 
> Either way man, chill maybe someone will answer the question in the way you want, I obviously won't stop it from happening and never intended to, as I don't care about it.


 
  
 Sorry DreamKing, but your answer was more like 'stating the obvious'. This can sometimes come across as condescending! I guess that this wasn't your intention, and anyway, it seems that there was no harm done.
  
 I suppose that there are users who are unaware of the balanced/unbalanced dip switches. But that doesn't seem to be Syd's case.
  
 I too am surprised at this result; I would have thought that the dip switch would completely switch between the outputs, so as there would be no sound at all, if the dip switch setting was incorrect. But, I guess the size of the switch indicates that it's not doing that much; if it was completely rerouting the line-level input, I'd hope that the switch would be a bit more substantial than that!
 So, _who_ knows exactly what it does?


----------



## DreamKing

With there being no manual/instructions with this thing, I can imagine not everyone knows how this thing works, even for aspects that may appear obvious. A good amount of pages back, I remember telling someone why their H10 sounded bad when their switch was in the incorrect position when they got it, in stock form. I thought he had the same situation. To me it's just information I'm giving, I genuinely thought I was helping out. Glad that's all figured out and hope you guys find out what you want.
  


bassdigger said:


> Sorry DreamKing, but your answer was more like 'stating the obvious'. This can sometimes come across as condescending! I guess that this wasn't your intention, and anyway, it seems that there was no harm done.
> 
> I suppose that there are users who are unaware of the balanced/unbalanced dip switches. But that doesn't seem to be Syd's case.
> 
> ...


----------



## sunneebear

A SE or unbalanced line has the signal and the ground.  That's why a RCA plug has one pin and the ground.
 A Balanced line has a positive and negative signal and the ground.  XLR connector has three pins, two signal and one ground.  Balanced cables are used to reject noise in long runs or noisy environment through phase inversion.  Something to do with the hot and cold line running in parallel cancelling out noise.
 I learned that from running cable for a church PA system.
  
 This part is just my guesstimation. 
 The H10 is a stereo amp and not a balanced amp but it can accept a balanced input because the switch is connected to a dual op-amp which serves as a balanced signal interface.  Basically summing the hot and cold balance signal into one.  
 When switched to unbalanced I assume the signal from the RCA is going through half the op-amp.  I assume half the op-amp and not bypass because changing the dual op-amps changes the sound from both the balance and unbalanced signals.
  
 This is just my guesstimation and I am sure it is a lot more complicated than that.


----------



## genclaymore

Also i thought i should post my op-amp rolling adventure notes here from the results I had with the H10, when I had the bifrost uber in the chain, which i switching to the X12 soon. I described it the best way I could.And I listen to each for a while and took notes.
  
 The Combos that I liked
 2xLT12132xAD797BRZ =Wide sound stage, Spacious,Tight hard Hitting bass,Airly Sound
 2xLT11242xAD797BRZ =Tight Bass that hits hard when needed,Forward Mids,Big Sound Stage, Big Sound stage 
 2xLT14892xAD797BRZ =Natural, Tight bass,Big wide Sound stage,Good Mids,Clean Highs
  
  
  
  
 The combos that I didn't like
  
 2xLME 49860 + 2x LME49990 Bright and flat
 2xLME 49860 + 2x LT1363 Bloated bass narrow SS
 2xLT1361 +2x LME49990 Netural and Flat
 2xLME49860+2xLT1357  Punchy bass,very good SS,Good Depth
 2xLT1124+2xLT1357 Good Highs, Lows with soft bass and ok Mids
 2xLT1489+LME49990  Tight Bass, Ver small sound stage. Flat Dull, Poor sound image
 2xLT1469+AD797BRZ Too Much Mids bass , Tight Accurate bass,Deep bass, Dark
 2xLT1469+2x LT1357  Controlled punchy bass,Mid-Bass,Big Sound stage.2
 xlt1358+ada797brz = Dark Punch Mid bass and subwoofer bass with dark sounding


----------



## natemact

Little comparison of the H10 and the new M-Stage by YoYo JoKeR if anyone's interested. 

http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage-hpa-3b-class-a-full-balance-headphone-amp/reviews/13705

This really got my attention because as much as I love my H10, it has now come time for me to go fully balanced (mostly due to the acquisition of a fully balanced phono stage). Will probably hold out for the new Gustard amp but this new M-Stage might make it a tougher decision.

Wonder how the HPA-3B stacks up against the Liquid Carbon as well. Hopefully someone gets a chance to jot down their thoughts on both come September.


----------



## BassDigger

genclaymore said:


> Also i thought i should post my op-amp rolling adventure notes here from the results I had with the H10, when I had the bifrost uber in the chain, which i switching to the X12 soon. I described it the best way I could.And I listen to each for a while and took notes.
> 
> The Combos that I liked
> 2xLT12132xAD797BRZ =Wide sound stage, Spacious,Tight hard Hitting bass,Airly Sound
> ...


 
 Thanks for posting your impressions, of so many combinations!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Your wording seems to suggest that even many of the sets that you 'didn't like', weren't too bad.
  
 I'd like to get the fullest deep and sub bass, and also improve the treble (it's currently uneven, with some slight exaggeration (cymbals etc) but ultimately rolled off). Is there any particular combo that you think helps the frequency extremes?


----------



## genclaymore

You could try out  2x LT1358 with 2xAD797BRZ  , 2x LT1469 with the 2xAD797BRZ, or 2xLME49860 and 2xLT1357 and see if  any of those 3 works for you. Because the results might be different as I had the bifrost uber, I don't know how it would do with your Cambridge. I used the LME 49860 and LT1357 combo for a while before trying others and end up settling on LT1489 and AD797. Which I hope I don't go on a dual op-amp rampage again.


----------



## stuartmc

I'll give my two cents again, for what it is worth. I personally find the AD797 and AD823 combination to yield outstanding soundstage, much clarity at the frequency extremes and a very neutral overall sound signature. Like I said before, there seems to be good synergy with the sister, brother Analog Devices op-amps.


----------



## BassDigger

Thanks guys.
  
 I guess I'll have to try the 797. Maybe I'll try a couple of combinations; just 2 other types of op-amp, for the other sockets; I don't do enough listening to warrant the auditioning of a whole collection. That's why I'm so keen to understand the findings of others.
  
 So, I guess once my amp has got plenty of hours on it, the AD797brz paired with AD823 and LT14892(?), and see which I prefer.
  
 Don't hold your breath; I may not be doing this for a while. But I'll let you know my thoughts.
 P.S. You can still add any 'updates', in the meantime


----------



## genclaymore

There two LT1489's, the LT1489 which what i using and the LT1489-2 which suppose to be a second one, I haven't used that one just the first one.


----------



## ppahot

Hello, may I ask what's the guideline for pre-gain setting (since no manual or whatsoever)? Like at some range of ohm, better to set at -12/-6/0/+6/+12? Is there any rule?
 I'm using AKG K712pro and feel +6 listens best to my ears, but the range to adjust volume is too small...
 Thanks!


----------



## DDDamian

No hard and fast rules. It depends on your input signal too, along with the sensitivity and impedance of the HP. Find what gives enough volume/power with decent adjustment range and that's about as scientific as it needs to be.


----------



## ppahot

Thank you for the reply!
 BTW, I also notice the 6.5mm socket is very tight and it leaves some scratches on my headphone connector... Is this normal or did I plug/unplug it wrong?


----------



## kdejonge

Anyone using the bifrost as dac for the h-10?


----------



## genclaymore

I have used the bifrost uber with the H10, it worked good together. but I sold my Bifrost uber to move on to the gustard X12 which I will be ordering soon.


----------



## kdejonge

Why are you switching?


----------



## spaech

The new gear has arrived, and it's every bit as sexy as I'd hoped. I'm holding off on any real evaluation of the H10. At the moment everything is a bit muddy. I'm generally skeptical of burn-in (other than brain burn-in), but I'm keeping an open mind so we'll see if / how things change over the next few weeks.


----------



## railrus

believe it but the amount of change .... should i say melodramatic? ha ha ha
  
  
  
 Quote:


spaech said:


> The new gear has arrived, and it's every bit as sexy as I'd hoped. I'm holding off on any real evaluation of the H10. At the moment everything is a bit muddy. I'm generally skeptical of burn-in (other than brain burn-in), but I'm keeping an open mind so we'll see if / how things change over the next few weeks.


----------



## spaech

One interesting thing I noticed while listening to a string quartet piece is that the violins had a distinctive sound that I've never heard before. I switched over to the HD650s and it's just not there. The scratchy timbre of the bowed strings on the LCD2s is replicated in a way the HD650s can't do. I guess it's because the dynamic drivers of the senns are simply not fast enough to produce a sawtooth wave accurately.


----------



## DDDamian

spaech said:


> The new gear has arrived, and it's every bit as sexy as I'd hoped. I'm holding off on any real evaluation of the H10. At the moment everything is a bit muddy. I'm generally skeptical of burn-in (other than brain burn-in), but I'm keeping an open mind so we'll see if / how things change over the next few weeks.


 


Spoiler: Your pic enclosed






>


 
  


 Congrats and hope you enjoy. I quite like mine with the Audeze's.


----------



## stuartmc

Just a heads up Swabbies.....*Gustard X20 *discussion is going on over on the general Gustard amplifiers and Dacs thread. I thought that was the best place for it even though this thread is like the galley of the SS Gustard.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Just a heads up Swabbies.....*Gustard X20 *discussion is going on over on the general Gustard amplifiers and Dacs thread. I thought that was the best place for it even though this thread is like the galley of the SS Gustard.


 
 Thank you my captain! Cheers from Oz.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Thank you my captain! Cheers from Oz.




Arrrr....The Boson from the Bush! I always get a big smile when you report in Swannie.


----------



## tretneo

Got my Burson op-amp mod kit today and sadly I have a pretty significant clearance problem. I am unable to close the top panel with the Burson op-amps installed. I meet resistance with about 1 inch gap and when I inspect the underside of the top panel I can see the dusty imprint of the top of the op-amps themselves 
  
 Has anyone else who has done this mod experienced this?


----------



## tretneo

tretneo said:


> Got my Burson op-amp mod kit today and sadly I have a pretty significant clearance problem. I am unable to close the top panel with the Burson op-amps installed. I meet resistance with about 1 inch gap and when I inspect the underside of the top panel I can see the dusty imprint of the top of the op-amps themselves
> 
> Has anyone else who has done this mod experienced this?


 
  
 Never mind, n00b mistake. I forgot to remove the sockets the op-amps were shipped with... Double op-amp sockets = too tall... Duh


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Arrrr....The Boson from the Bush! I always get a big smile when you report in Swannie.


 
 Just letting my Captain know that I am still alive and well. Stole some time from preparing a lecture for my students that I will deliver tomorrow. I am a teacher at a local community college having retired from the tools as an instrumentation and controls technician for about 40 years. Time to pass the knowledge base on to the next generation.
 Take care my friend and continue to captain the good ship SS Gustard in good health and spirits.


----------



## spaech

I've been switching back and forth between the H10 and the Valhalla, and noticing the distinct tubey shimmer & sparkle in the top end with the Valhalla which is entirely absent in the H10. Which is expected, but I was trying to quantify what exactly is happening to the waveform that makes the tube amp less neutral? Longer attack and decay? Resonance?


----------



## DDDamian

spaech said:


> I've been switching back and forth between the H10 and the Valhalla, and noticing the distinct tubey shimmer & sparkle in the top end with the Valhalla which is entirely absent in the H10. Which is expected, but I was trying to quantify what exactly is happening to the waveform that makes the tube amp less neutral? Longer attack and decay? Resonance?


 
 I think it just filters some of the highs that give you that air and sparkle. All audio gear has (at it's most basic) resistor-capacitor (R-C) filters to constrain the bandwidth to the audio spectrum. This is known as a low-pass filter. The H10 seems to have a fair roll-off up in that high-end. This results in a warmer, smoother, less-fatiguing sound at the expense of air and treble detail.


----------



## spaech

dddamian said:


> I think it just filters some of the highs that give you that air and sparkle. All audio gear has (at it's most basic) resistor-capacitor (R-C) filters to constrain the bandwidth to the audio spectrum. This is known as a low-pass filter. The H10 seems to have a fair roll-off up in that high-end. This results in a warmer, smoother, less-fatiguing sound at the expense of air and treble detail.


 
 The H10 sounds detailed but neutral in the highs, it doesn't sound at all rolled off to me. Whereas the Valhalla has this chime-like shimmer to the highs. I'd have thought any low pass filters in the SS amp would only affect frequencies well outside the range of human hearing? But I don't know enough about how the electronics work. I hate these ambiguous metaphors when describing sonic qualities so I'm trying to nail down what the tubes are doing to the sound in objective terms.
  
 Perhaps it's this ringing effect that tube amps apparently suffer from in various degrees:
  

  
 I guess you could call it a feature rather than a bug. It's not unpleasant -- quite musical, but it does seem to be an added quality that the tube amp colours the sound with, not present in the recording.


----------



## DDDamian

spaech said:


> The H10 sounds detailed but neutral in the highs, it doesn't sound at all rolled off to me. Whereas the Valhalla has this chime-like shimmer to the highs. I'd have thought any low pass filters in the SS amp would only affect frequencies well outside the range of human hearing?


 
 Out of four amps (2x tube, 2x SS) on my desk right now, plus three Fiio portable players, the H-10 is by far the warmest of the bunch. IMO it has very rolled-off (or more likely shelved) highs. It even seems to tame the upper frequencies of the HD-800 and HE-400's - two cans known to have a little more energy up top. I usually use it paired with them. For something already a bit warm like the HD-650 I find it goes too far in reducing treble. That's been my experience with it anyways.
  
 And sure, the circuitry should amplify in a neutral way all the way through to 20kHZ or so, but subjectively most don't. It'd be unusual to see a "brick-wall" filter in an amp - some roll-off is normal in any filter - it's the slope/curve of it and the starting point that define what gets through. Though I mention R-C circuits there are also other components that act as filters like transformers, chokes, etc.
  
 For sure tubes can add ringing, filtering and other characteristics to the sound - often in very nice ways. Part of the fun with tube-rolling!


----------



## stuartmc

dddamian said:


> Out of four amps (2x tube, 2x SS) on my desk right now, plus three Fiio portable players, the H-10 is by far the warmest of the bunch. IMO it has very rolled-off (or more likely shelved) highs. It even seems to tame the upper frequencies of the HD-800 and HE-400's - two cans known to have a little more energy up top. I usually use it paired with them. For something already a bit warm like the HD-650 I find it goes too far in reducing treble. That's been my experience with it anyways.
> 
> And sure, the circuitry should amplify in a neutral way all the way through to 20kHZ or so, but subjectively most don't. It'd be unusual to see a "brick-wall" filter in an amp - some roll-off is normal in any filter - it's the slope/curve of it and the starting point that define what gets through. Though I mention R-C circuits there are also other components that act as filters like transformers, chokes, etc.
> 
> For sure tubes can add ringing, filtering and other characteristics to the sound - often in very nice ways. Part of the fun with tube-rolling!


 
 I would agree that the stock H10 has a warm, almost "tubey" sound for a solid state amp.  My op-amp "swabbing" has led me to the conclusion that it is more the character of the chosen op-amps than it is a filtered limitation of high frequencies. The AD797 and AD823 combination is very neutral with a lot of top end detail as compared to the stock opa123 and 5532.


----------



## spaech

dddamian said:


> Out of four amps (2x tube, 2x SS) on my desk right now, plus three Fiio portable players, the H-10 is by far the warmest of the bunch. IMO it has very rolled-off (or more likely shelved) highs. It even seems to tame the upper frequencies of the HD-800 and HE-400's - two cans known to have a little more energy up top. I usually use it paired with them. For something already a bit warm like the HD-650 I find it goes too far in reducing treble. That's been my experience with it anyways.
> 
> And sure, the circuitry should amplify in a neutral way all the way through to 20kHZ or so, but subjectively most don't. It'd be unusual to see a "brick-wall" filter in an amp - some roll-off is normal in any filter - it's the slope/curve of it and the starting point that define what gets through. Though I mention R-C circuits there are also other components that act as filters like transformers, chokes, etc.
> 
> For sure tubes can add ringing, filtering and other characteristics to the sound - often in very nice ways. Part of the fun with tube-rolling!


 
 I wonder if artifacts / distortions like overshoot and ringing will add to the total energy in the higher frequencies, or the perception of it. If the H10 is producing a clean signal without much in the way of these artifacts, and providing enough current to clamp the drivers tight to the waveform without deviation, that might be why it seems darker in comparison. Just speculating here, but it seems plausible that a powerful and neutral amp with low THD might seem darker in comparison. Looking at the specs, the Valhalla has "THD Less than 0.5%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V", whereas the Gustard has "THD + N (1kHz 1W @ 100ohm): <0.00035%". Seems like a big difference.


----------



## spaech

Just reading about it a little more, supposedly most amps are designed to produce a "ruler flat" frequency response in the range of human hearing, but that's only if the output impedance is constant. Since headphones with dynamic drivers are far from constant in their impedance over the frequency range, that would provide a plausible explanation for significant differences in the sonic signature between amps.
  
 So for instance, according to the graphs here, the HD800's impedance drops by nearly half between 200hz and 1000hz, and stays around 350ish ohms up to 10khz. So let's say we have an amp that has a high variation in output over that impedance range -- it's going to sound brighter than an amp that has less variation over the same impedance range. Which is perhaps suggesting the Gustard is more consistent with its output between 300 ohms and 600 ohms, compared to other amps.


----------



## mandrake50

dddamian said:


> I think it just filters some of the highs that give you that air and sparkle. All audio gear has (at it's most basic) resistor-capacitor (R-C) filters to constrain the bandwidth to the audio spectrum. This is known as a low-pass filter. The H10 seems to have a fair roll-off up in that high-end. This results in a warmer, smoother, less-fatiguing sound at the expense of air and treble detail.


 
 The spec for the H10 is
Frequency response: 0-55kHz (-0.5dB).
Believe it, I had mine at a friends with some test gear. At 1 watt into 100 ohms (purely resistive), it looked extremely flat to 50K and well beyond. There is no filtering going on in the audible range.
People like tube sound, as do I, but what the  tubes  "add" to the sound is distortion pure and simple. It may be distortion that is pleasing to the ear, but it is distortion just the same.
  
The varying impedance question. The load does shape the output to some extents. The Amp and drivers have a sort of symbiotic relationship. I have heard many times how much people favor the H10 with planar headphones. I wonder how much of that is due to their pretty much flat impedance curve over the audio range?


----------



## DDDamian

Currently running with two OPA2604 and two AD797AN op-amps - have a few more to try.
  
 It's hard to subjectively judge whether an amp is neutral - I can only compare to all the others I have, and regardless of HP the H-10 sounds warmer. Whether it's the op-amps or other components I don't really know, but bright cans sound good, and very warm cans too warm, so the amp is the common factor in my listening experiences with it.
  
 Not slagging it for it. Quite the opposite: I would've ditched the HE-400's until I tried that pairing. Another tool in the kit. Kinda like how the 650 is a great relaxing can, the H-10 has a similar effect compared to ones with a bit more high-end emphasis. Note I did not say neutrality there lol.


----------



## DDDamian

mandrake50 said:


> The spec for the H10 is
> Frequency response: 0-55kHz (-0.5dB).
> Believe it, I had mine at a friends with some test gear. At 1 watt into 100 ohms, it looked extremely flat to 50K. There is no filtering going on in the audible range.
> People like tube sound, as do I, but what the  tubes  "add" to the sound is distortion pure and simple. It may be distortion that is pleasing to the ear, but it is distortion just the same.


 
 I knew that was coming lol - or that someone would pull out a graph. Compare it to the BHA-1 which is also razor-flat in the serialized graphs they supply with each unit (and made in Canada at about four times the price) . The H-10 sounds substantially warmer with any given can. Which one's right?


----------



## mandrake50

dddamian said:


> I knew that was coming lol - or that someone would pull out a graph. Compare it to the BHA-1 which is also razor-flat in the serialized graphs they supply with each unit (and made in Canada at about four times the price) . The H-10 sounds substantially warmer with any given can. Which one's right?


 
 There is not "right"  as to the sound... it is what it is, but the question was ...or statement was about some level of filtering that might be responsible for the sound differences between the H10 and the Schiit. Valhalla.
  
  
 I am not going to tell anyone that I have the answers to why amps sound different. We all know that they do. Apparently attributing it to FR curves is not all there is to the equation. That is the only point that I was trying to make.
 In addition to the tubes adding coloration, that is.


----------



## DDDamian

mandrake50 said:


> There is not "right"  as to the sound... it is what it is, but the question was ...or statement was about some level of filtering that might be responsible for the sound differences between the H10 and the Schiit. Valhalla.
> 
> 
> I am not going to tell anyone that I have the answers to why amps sound different. We all know that they do. Apparently attributing it to FR curves is not all there is to the equation. That is the only point that I was trying to make.
> In addition to the tubes adding coloration, that is.


 
 I don't have the answer either 
  
 I know just about every audio device out there (speakers, amps, whatever) claims incredible linearity - you would think they all sound exactly the same lol. Especially SS amps where there's no moving drivers or anything. I can see things like slew rates affecting sound in tubes and the like, but op-amps have slew rates that are way past audibility so that can't really be a factor either. Either someone's lying about the FR graphs / stats or there's some deeper mystery here. If the FR's are flat then the transient response is about all I can think of when comparing with the same can (along with impedance swings in the can and the amps reaction to it). I think we're basically agreeing 
  
 I totally agree that what a tube brings is colouration or distortion. Some love it, some don't and ofc every tube has a different sound, even within the same types and makes. Some have made me go ugh - too dull or too coloured. Some are just amazing.
  
 Great hobby isn't it?


----------



## spaech

So this little exercise in excel was an attempt to quantify how these two amps (bha-1 and h10) might differ in terms of power output across the frequency range for the HD800s. And therefore, whether we could expect one to sound darker/brighter than the other based on relative power output across the spectrum. I had to make a few extrapolations due to limited data for the H10. If the Gustard does indeed sound darker than the BHA-1, then I've either messed something up in this analysis or there's something else at play.


----------



## DDDamian

Wow - that was quick. But how does the power at 1Khz (the usual reference point) into the given load (300ohms) translate across the whole spectrum? I.e. what if at 300ohms one amp puts out xxma but at 5khz puts out yyma into the same load? Think that's more the question. You're extrapolating based on the one data point (power at 1kHz) and assuming it's flat right on through the rest of the spectrum. That's not what most are finding when the describe the H-10 as warm and detailed, and the BHA-1 as on the brighter side.


----------



## spaech

dddamian said:


> Wow - that was quick. But how does the power at 1Khz (the usual reference point) into the given load (300ohms) translate across the whole spectrum? I.e. what if at 300ohms one amp puts out xxma but at 5khz puts out yyma into the same load? Think that's more the question. You're extrapolating based on the one data point (power at 1kHz) and assuming it's flat right on through the rest of the spectrum. That's not what most are finding when the describe the H-10 as warm and detailed, and the BHA-1 as on the brighter side.


 
 Well according to the impedance graph for the HD800, the difference in impedance between 1khz and 5khz is negligible, so power output should be almost identical. But there might be more to it that I'm not understanding.


----------



## DDDamian

spaech said:


> Well according to the impedance graph for the HD800, the difference in impedance between 1khz and 5khz is negligible, so power output should be almost identical. But there might be more to it that I'm not understanding.


 
 The InnerFidelity graphs show the FR about 6db lower at 5kHz - that's half the output for a given power level. Impedance doesn't change much (looks like about 30-40ohms difference between those frequencies, but as a percentage that's a lot).
  
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800B.pdf
  
 Ofc if you look at the Senn FR chart supplied with each one it is almost perfectly linear. But they compare it to a "reference" HD-800 so ofc the deviation from that is very small.
  
 All that said, comparing the amps using the same can should rule out the can itself. I really don't understand it based on the linearity specs.


----------



## tretneo

How warm/hot does your H10 get? I have been using mine for a month or so and never really paid much attention to how hot the case, volume knob and top plate gets. After swapping the op-amps I'm paying more attention and there is definitely quite a bit of heat, warm bordering on hot to the touch. Looking at the thread there isn't a whole lot of discussion, anyone have any thoughts to share?


----------



## DDDamian

tretneo said:


> How warm/hot does your H10 get? I have been using mine for a month or so and never really paid much attention to how hot the case, volume knob and top plate gets. After swapping the op-amps I'm paying more attention and there is definitely quite a bit of heat, warm bordering on hot to the touch. Looking at the thread there isn't a whole lot of discussion, anyone have any thoughts to share?


 
 Hot to the touch would be a concern, but warm bordering on hot sounds about right. If these things are operating in Class A as they should you can expect good heat output. Wouldn't be too concerned as long as it's got a little breathing room on the top and sides.


----------



## tretneo

dddamian said:


> Hot to the touch would be a concern, but warm bordering on hot sounds about right. If these things are operating in Class A as they should you can expect good heat output. Wouldn't be too concerned as long as it's got a little breathing room on the top and sides.


 
  
 Thanks, makes sense. Can anyone think of anything done during an op-amp swap that would lead to increased heat but otherwise normal operation? It's definitely not so hot that I can't keep my hand flat on the top panel but it's certainly noticeably putting out some heat.


----------



## Jhya

I also recently got the Burson Opamps for the H10. The discrete Bursons definitely adds a lot more heat to the H10 than the IC opamps I have previously rolled. If I leave the cover on, the top of the cover will get extremely hot, to the point of burning my hand. I tried putting back the MUSES02 opamp with the cover on, and it was much better and only slightly warm bordering on hot.
  
 So, when using the Bursons, I just leave the cover off to dissipate the added heat and the heatsink just feels slight warm bordering on hot.
  
 As to my impressions comparing the MUSES02 to the Bursons, I feel I'm using the Bursons much more. I can definitely hear much more micro detail and the soundstage becomes 3 dimensional. Also, I feel the Bursons are smoother compared to the MUSES02. There is a slight harshness on the upper range on the MUSES02 that gives me listening fatigue over long periods. With the Bursons, it's so enjoyable and smooth, I can enjoy the music all night.


----------



## tretneo

jhya said:


> I also recently got the Burson Opamps for the H10. The discrete Bursons definitely adds a lot more heat to the H10 than the IC opamps I have previously rolled. If I leave the cover on, the top of the cover will get extremely hot, to the point of burning my hand. I tried putting back the MUSES02 opamp with the cover on, and it was much better and only slightly warm bordering on hot.
> 
> So, when using the Bursons, I just leave the cover off to dissipate the added heat and the heatsink just feels slight warm bordering on hot.
> 
> As to my impressions comparing the MUSES02 to the Bursons, I feel I'm using the Bursons much more. I can definitely hear much more micro detail and the soundstage becomes 3 dimensional. Also, I feel the Bursons are smoother compared to the MUSES02. There is a slight harshness on the upper range on the MUSES02 that gives me listening fatigue over long periods. With the Bursons, it's so enjoyable and smooth, I can enjoy the music all night.


 
  
 Nice, thanks for solving this mystery for me. Excited to really dig in and give the Bursons some listening time. I'm a little concerned about the heat as I don't intend to take the cover on/off but we'll see how hot mine gets, my office is pretty well cooled.


----------



## DDDamian

^^^ yeah good call with the discrete Burson amps - they would run hotter. I hadn't considered you weren't using IC's.


----------



## tretneo

dddamian said:


> ^^^ yeah good call with the discrete Burson amps - they would run hotter. I hadn't considered you weren't using IC's.


 
  
 Yeah, a small detail I should have included...


----------



## tretneo

tretneo said:


> Yeah, a small detail I should have included...


 
  
 So, that leads me to my next question. How hot is too hot? If I can keep my palm on the top lid without real discomfort am I relatively safe?


----------



## DDDamian

tretneo said:


> So, that leads me to my next question. How hot is too hot? If I can keep my palm on the top lid without real discomfort am I relatively safe?


 
 That's a pretty good guideline. Many amps run warm. Think of car amps driven hard in the hot humid summers. Similar components. My guess is it's nowhere near that warm.


----------



## jaywillin

day three of burning in for my newly acquired h10, if it gets better then it was right out of the box.....  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 i'd followed this thread early on, but stopped for a while, i have some catching up to do, really interested in the effect of opamp rolling


----------



## heliosphann

Finally got my replacement H10. Powers up and sounds great. Too bad there seems to be a small short in the cord connection. I don't think it will be too much of a problem, but the QC on these seems to be asstastic.


----------



## stuartmc

heliosphann said:


> Finally got my replacement H10. Powers up and sounds great. Too bad there seems to be a small short in the cord connection. I don't think it will be too much of a problem, but the QC on these seems to be asstastic.




I suggest using a good power cord that has a more positive connection to the three prongs. The included cord is utter crap. If this doesn't fix the problem, then I suggest opening it up an examining the IEC socket wire connections. In particular, make sure the ground wire that attaches to the case bottom via the foot screw is not loose.


----------



## vr1

H10 + LCDs family sounded very good.


----------



## spaech

So I decided to get all empirical in trying to understand why the schiit valhalla sounds different to the gustard h10 in objective terms. I think I learned some things, but I'll just present my findings and you can decide what it means.
  
 Methodology: Record a variety of test tones through amp/headphone combinations into high sensitivity mic (SP-TFB-2-80018). Waveforms are then aligned and examined in reaper. I have not normalised the results to the mic's frequency response, since these are comparisons between other gear with the mic remaining constant, so its frequency response will colour everything equally.
  
 20hz - 20khz linear sine sweep to compare freq response of various headphones (ATH-M50x, LCD2f, HD598, HD650):

  
  
 Sine sweep as above, with the following amp/headphone pairs: Valhalla+LCD2, H10+LCD2, Valhalla+HD650, H10+HD650:

  
  
 500hz square wave from H10 into LCD2 (dark line) and HD650 (light line):

  
  
 1khz square wave into HD650 from H10 (dark line) and Valhalla (light line):
 *note: levels weren't matched perfectly, hence the slight amplitude difference.

  
  
 Zoomed-in waveform of complex violin piece into HD650 from Valhalla (dark line) and H10 (light line):
 *note: they are virtually identical so the light line is hard to see.

  
  
 I did lots more of these kind of tests and the results were all the same. Going between the H10 and the Valhalla into the same set of cans, the measured waveform is basically identical. Going between cans using the same amp, significant differences are observed.
  
 I wanted to quantify whether the frequency response between amps was measurably different, so I sampled the amplitude at roughly evenly spaced frequency intervals. I then subtracted the Valhalla's output in dB from the H10's, and normalised to 0 dB. The results:
  

  

  
  
 Note that the differences in dB output between these two amps across the frequency spectrum is relatively small, between 0 and 0.7 dB. In comparison, the dB output at the same frequency between cans will vary in the order of 10+ dB.
  
 Conclusions:
 The amp contributes a much smaller component to sound colouring, relative to the headphones. This seems to be true both in terms of frequency response and also driver response to difficult waveforms like square waves. The difference in frequency response between amps is roughly 5% of that between headphones. This is from dB measurements, which won't correspond exactly with perceived differences. I wasn't able to detect any measurable differences in waveform distortions between the solid state and tube amps.


----------



## spaech

One other bit of mild weirdness with the waveform shape: the LCD2 + Valhalla shown here as the overlaid lighter grey line (darker line is LCD2 + H10):
  
 3150 hz:

 3600 hz:

 4400 hz:

  
 Only notable because everywhere outside this range is perfect sines. Not sure what to make of that, other than it's perhaps an artifact of the LCD2s being under-driven.


----------



## DDDamian

@spaech - interesting observations - thanks for sharing! In some ways I would interpret your results as some (fairly) common knowledge here: if you want a different sound, change HP's not amps. It's pretty well recognized that they comprise the biggest sonic differential in the chain - using the same music sample.
  
 On the other hand you've seen small differences between amps in both FR and to some degree phase response. The human ear is incredibly sensitive - so much that if we didn't use a logarithmic scale the difference between the quietest and loudest noises we can perceive is insanely large. The phase difference and intraural time delay (the fractional difference between when sounds arrive which gives us many spatial cues) is insanely small.
  
 It's safe to say that the ear-brain ability to differentiate small differences is very sensitive, in level, phase-difference and time difference. Our brains also interpret frequency changes in the same signal to get directional cues along with their time delay - this is the so-called HRTF or head-related transfer function as our head getting in the way changes the frequency received from one ear to the other, and the slight delay as the sound transits our heads. This is the basis of cross-feed circuits and directional cues.
  
 So it doesn't surprise me the slight measurement differences you found can be picked out by the ear between amps, and are a fraction of what the headphones vary by but are still significant to our quite sensitive hearing.
  
 If the results seem subtle to you, consider just how sensitive our hearing and localization of sound really is, and I think it takes on a bigger effect for a small measured difference.
  
 Very cool work! I was most surprised by the readings from different cans. Not at all the FR's I'd expected from a few cans on those sweeps.


----------



## spaech

dddamian said:


> @spaech - interesting observations - thanks for sharing! In some ways I would interpret your results as some (fairly) common knowledge here: if you want a different sound, change HP's not amps. It's pretty well recognized that they comprise the biggest sonic differential in the chain - using the same music sample.
> 
> On the other hand you've seen small differences between amps in both FR and to some degree phase response. The human ear is incredibly sensitive - so much that if we didn't use a logarithmic scale the difference between the quietest and loudest noises we can perceive is insanely large. The phase difference and intraural time delay (the fractional difference between when sounds arrive which gives us many spatial cues) is insanely small.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the comments Damian. I agree that the differences between the amps may not necessarily be subtle to the ears. What's interesting to me though is how small the differences are _relative_ to the difference between cans. To me this indicates that in terms of value for money, it may be better to invest in gear proportional to the SQ increases attributable to the gear. That's oversimplifying a bit, but it seems reasonable to invest significantly more in headphones than amps, considering how much money people put into amps for what appears to be relatively marginal return. I'm not saying the amp should be neglected, just that it might be enough to aim for an amp that does a _good enough_ job of driving the cans, and put the real money into good cans. I realise this is probably controversial but I'd be very interested to see some blind tests to see whether this principle holds up in subjective listening.
  
 Perhaps even more interesting to me is that the differences between the amps is primarily in frequency response, rather than distortion or other kinds of colouring. This suggests that the differences between amps might be nullified by EQing. It's one of those things where it's hard to quantify what proportion of our enjoyment of an amp's sound is down to minor EQ differences. It'd be very interesting to see whether an amp like the H10 could be made to sound identical to more expensive amps by measuring their frequency response and negating the difference with EQ, and then see whether they are distinguishable in a blind test.
  
 I realise that half the fun of head-fi is in experimenting with all the elements in the signal chain and trying to intuitively judge the subjective changes. But personally I like my investments to be guided by objective data, and while placebo is a real thing I consider that a marginal return on investment compared to gear that has measurable results. I'd like to try similar tests with DACs and cables 
  
 One thing worth noting: The sine sweeps comparing freq response of those four cans were linear and not logarithmic, so that might be why the results seem a bit surprising. The results surprised me too, and I'm not entirely sure why they look so different to the graphs on headphone.com (accounting for the linear/log difference). The results I got are repeatable and I think the methodology is sound, but I'd be interested to hear ideas for why my graphs seem to differ from what you see elsewhere.


----------



## BassDigger

I've recently written about this, somewhere else. The transducer has to be the most important single component, because that's the piece of tech that we're actually hearing. As you point out, the differences between phones are, by far, the most noticeable of the components.
  
 But to me, that doesn't mean doing what some around here seem to do; spend mega-bucks on phones, only to feed them a signal (probably mp3) that originated from low quality source, with an unsuitable amplifier.
  
 As you indicate, a balance should be found.
  
 I guess the best way that I can put it is to choose the phones that have your preferred characteristics. Then the source (dac and whatever's feeding it) should be of a good enough quality to do justice for the phones. I guess I'd spend about the same on the source chain and the phones. Then the amp should be of a suitable design, for the 'phones (such as OTL for high impedance or plenty of power for planar cans), and of good enough quality to do justice to the source chain.
  
 To put this into context, if you're using pc/usb audio, you'll probably need something to decrapify the usb signal, then perhaps use the X12 dac (maybe there're better double or single box options, for a similar outlay), and use your H10 to drive the Hifiman HE500, because they're probably the best match sonically, electrically and financially, for the H10. 
  
 Ok, I've just glanced at your 'kit list'. I've no idea about your source, but maybe you'll want to do the same as I'll one day be doing; upgrade from the H10, to do justice to the excellent Audeze phones. The H10 drives them nicely, but I don't think that it's got the quality, the transparency and resolution, to show what the LCD2Fs are really capable of. But, I've already got a good quality source chain. So, as they say, YMMV.
  
 Just my thoughts.


----------



## spaech

@BassDigger out of curiosity which amps have you hard the LCD2s through that give you the impression that the H10 isn't doing them justice? Regarding sources, I'm currently using the SMSL M8 DAC which is quite nice. It's interesting you mention decrapifying USB signals because every DAC I used prior to this one had horrendous noise from USB, I guess because my motherboard is poorly shielded. Even moving the mouse about would result in easily audible clicks and static sounds. But the M8 is dead silent, so I guess they're doing something right to filter out that noise.
  
@DDDamian I redid the sine sweeps with a more sane methodology. This time I used a logarithmic sweep and mounted the headphones on a makeshift dummy head (previously I mic'd them open air). The freq response graphs look better I think:
  
 ATH-M50x, LCD2f, HD598, HD650


----------



## BassDigger

Perhaps I'm jumping the gun by bandying around my opinion, of the H10. It was new, when I started using it, and I've still only got about 60 hours on it. I'm hoping that its sound will improve.
  
 Anyway, the only other amp that I've used is a Beyer A1 clone. It's certainly not a good match with planar 'phones, but it definitely has better treble extension, when compared to the 'factory fresh' Gustard.
  
 I guess I'll switch back to the old amp, and do some 'A/B'ing, once the H10 is properly burnt in. Then I can give more reliable feedback. But, I'm not the only one who's found the H10 to lack a little treble resolution.
 Otherwise, it's certainly got plenty of grip and control; the Audeze 'phones now have the kind of fast, punchy and dynamic sound that I enjoyed with the HE400.


----------



## DDDamian

spaech said:


> @BassDigger out of curiosity which amps have you hard the LCD2s through that give you the impression that the H10 isn't doing them justice? Regarding sources, I'm currently using the SMSL M8 DAC which is quite nice. It's interesting you mention decrapifying USB signals because every DAC I used prior to this one had horrendous noise from USB, I guess because my motherboard is poorly shielded. Even moving the mouse about would result in easily audible clicks and static sounds. But the M8 is dead silent, so I guess they're doing something right to filter out that noise.
> 
> @DDDamian I redid the sine sweeps with a more sane methodology. This time I used a logarithmic sweep and mounted the headphones on a makeshift dummy head (previously I mic'd them open air). The freq response graphs look better I think:
> 
> ATH-M50x, LCD2f, HD598, HD650


 
 That looks closer to what I'd imagine them to be. The M50x is quite V-shaped, and the Senns show that mid-bass hump but generally smooth transitions through zones. The only one surprising me there is the LCD2.2f, where I'd expected even smoother bass extension, but mine are pre-fazor and likely have a bit more of the very low-end.
  
 Very nice work.
  


bassdigger said:


> Perhaps I'm jumping the gun by bandying around my opinion, of the H10. It was new, when I started using it, and I've still only got about 60 hours on it. I'm hoping that its sound will improve.
> 
> Anyway, the only other amp that I've used is a Beyer A1 clone. It's certainly not a good match with planar 'phones, but it definitely has better treble extension, when compared to the 'factory fresh' Gustard.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree that the H-10 lacks in treble, but it does give a nice laid-back sound with the Audeze's and really helps the HE-400 - made them a top-notch can that I didn't really like with more treble. It's also a nice match for the HD-800 where the treble was a bit tough for me to adjust too after being used to warmer cans.
  
 I've been listening mostly to my Bryston BHA-1 lately with the Audeze's and it strikes a nice balance between the power needed and just enough treble extension. But it costs significantly more. Haven't tried the HE-400 on it yet. Still my favourite with the LCD2.2 is the BH S.E.X.


----------



## morob7

I ordered the AD797 opamps before I even received my H10. I broke the H10 in for a few days before listening and thought it sounded pretty decent with my HE560. I switched in the AD797 and they took the amp to another level. Detail and coherance without drawing attention to certain frequencies. Soundstage opened up. The AD797s have been there since. I would highly recommend this simple and inexpensive mod. If you like you can try other opamps as well. I personally have no desire to change what I have. I am sure the best opamp combo would be headphone dependent.


----------



## PoSR77

Is this amp really a lot better than the original Matrix M-Stage? I'd like to upgrade, but not side grade. I'm a bit worried if this is also over hyped because I 1) never was that impressed with the Matrix 2) there were also claims of the M-Stage "burning in" and becoming wonderful; I never heard it, it remained so-so from hour 1 to hour 1000 (I mostly used an old Head Direct/HiFiman EF-1 as my main amp and used the Matrix for a second set up where I didn't care about SQ that much).


----------



## normanl

morob7 said:


> I ordered tha AD797 opamps before I even received my H10. I broke the H10 in for a few days before listening and thought it sounded pretty decent with my HE560. I switched in the AD797 and they took the amp to another level. Detail and coherance without drawing attention to certain frequencies. Soundstage opened up. The AD797s have been there since. I would highly recommend this simple and inexpensive mod. If you like you can try other opamps as well. I personally have no desire to change what I have. I am sure the best opamp combo would be headphone dependent.


 
 May I ask where you purchase the AD797 opamps and, also, the price? Thanks.


----------



## stuartmc

normanl said:


> May I ask where you purchase the AD797 opamps and, also, the price? Thanks.




They are around $12 for the pair delivered, as I recall. Digikey or mouser have them in stock. Get the AD823's for the other set and you have nirvana on the cheap.


----------



## morob7

I ordered mine from Parts Connexion in Canada. I think you can also buy direct from Analog Devices.


----------



## normanl

stuartmc said:


> They are around $12 for the pair delivered, as I recall. Digikey or mouser have them in stock. Get the AD823's for the other set and you have nirvana on the cheap.


 
 Do I need to buy a pair of AD797 opamps and another pair of AD823? There are many different variants of AD797 opamps in Digikey, which one (part # ) is for H10?  I can not find AD823 there. What is the part # of AD823? Thanks.


----------



## BassDigger

dddamian said:


> I agree that the H-10 lacks in treble, but it does give a nice laid-back sound with the Audeze's and really helps the HE-400 - made them a top-notch can that I didn't really like with more treble. It's also a nice match for the HD-800 where the treble was a bit tough for me to adjust too after being used to warmer cans.
> 
> I've been listening mostly to my Bryston BHA-1 lately with the Audeze's and it strikes a nice balance between the power needed and just enough treble extension. But it costs significantly more. Haven't tried the HE-400 on it yet. Still my favourite with the LCD2.2 is the BH S.E.X.


 
  
 I'd got rid of my he400's, before buying the H10. I'd got convinced that my previous amp was fine for planars. I guess I got the wrong impression.
  
 It's a shame; perhaps the he400/H10 combo would have been fine for me, at a fraction of the price of the LCD2 + H10.
  
 But....it was clear that the Hifiman's were far from perfect. So, I guess that's why I was comfortable to sell them, despite them doing a lot of things good.
  
 The lcd2 does everything right, above the middle of the mid-range, that the he400 did wrong. In the lower half of the spectrum, the H10 is making the lcd2 sound like the he400: fast, agile and punchy, but lacking weight, body and fullness to the sound.
 I've got about 60-70 hours on it; I'm hoping that the sound will regain some body (I'm sure that it had more at around 30-40 hours!), as it burns in.


----------



## mandrake50

jhya said:


> I also recently got the Burson Opamps for the H10. The discrete Bursons definitely adds a lot more heat to the H10 than the IC opamps I have previously rolled. If I leave the cover on, the top of the cover will get extremely hot, to the point of burning my hand. I tried putting back the MUSES02 opamp with the cover on, and it was much better and only slightly warm bordering on hot.
> 
> So, when using the Bursons, I just leave the cover off to dissipate the added heat and the heatsink just feels slight warm bordering on hot.
> 
> As to my impressions comparing the MUSES02 to the Bursons, I feel I'm using the Bursons much more. I can definitely hear much more micro detail and the soundstage becomes 3 dimensional. Also, I feel the Bursons are smoother compared to the MUSES02. There is a slight harshness on the upper range on the MUSES02 that gives me listening fatigue over long periods. With the Bursons, it's so enjoyable and smooth, I can enjoy the music all night.


 

 I got a set of the Burson discrete opamps a couple of weeks ago. I still have not installed them. It is interesting to note that they make the H10 run hotter.
 I will install them as soon as my left hand re-covers from the trauma that I imposed on it.
 In the mean time, can you comment more on how the Bursons sound compared to stock? I usually do not ask this kind of question, as everyone perceives sound differently. I noticed that a few people said that they bought the Bursons, but other than the OP on the subject (who said they sound like "nothing") I have not read any more comprehensive descriptions of how they compare to stock. Until I can listen for myself, I am curious.


----------



## DDDamian

bassdigger said:


> I'd got rid of my he400's, before buying the H10. I'd got convinced that my previous amp was fine for planars. I guess I got the wrong impression.
> 
> It's a shame; perhaps the he400/H10 combo would have been fine for me, at a fraction of the price of the LCD2 + H10.
> 
> ...


 
 Shame you did - I was on the edge as to keeping them because I found the treble too bright and the mids a little wonky. Can't describe it better than that - they just sounded off for vocals and other midrange sounds. The H-10 gave them the juice they needed and tamed the highs to something I could listen to without fatigue.
  
 That said, I find the LCD2.2 a better headphone. The mids are much more natural and coherent. I find the amp doesn't have as big an effect on them - their sound seems to stay true on several amps with only minor changes between them. Not to diminish the effect, but they are one can that seems to keep its signature sound no matter what, in a good way. They are also more forgiving than the HE-400's which seemed to really highlight vinyl hiss and pop.
  
 I'm surprised you're finding a lack of weight, body and fullness to the sound - both the LCD2.2 and H-10 have loads of it. Give it a bit more time, then if you're still not happy try the op-amp rolling regimen. To me both on their own have all kinds of fullness and richness, paired they are a very pleasing combo - almost Mullard tube-like.


----------



## mandrake50

bassdigger said:


> I've recently written about this, somewhere else. The transducer has to be the most important single component, because that's the piece of tech that we're actually hearing. As you point out, the differences between phones are, by far, the most noticeable of the components.
> 
> But to me, that doesn't mean doing what some around here seem to do; spend mega-bucks on phones, only to feed them a signal (probably mp3) that originated from low quality source, with an unsuitable amplifier.
> 
> ...


 

 In the day, when I was more heavily into stereo (2 channel audio) the rule of thumb was to plan on spending 1/3 to 1/2 your budget on transducers. That is where the major impact on the sound you get occurs. I don't think that there is always a direct correlation between cost and audio quality, but I tend to think that the rule of thumb probably applies to headphones as well as speakers.
  
 I usually think, Headphones>DAC, Source>Amp>Cables> various other magical devices... such as USB decrapification... is a reasonable order for investment in this hobby.


----------



## DDDamian

mandrake50 said:


> In the day, when I was more heavily into stereo (2 channel audio) the rule of thumb was to plan on spending 1/3 to 1/2 your budget on transducers. That is where the major impact on the sound you get occurs. I don't think that there is always a direct correlation between cost and audio quality, but I tend to think that the rule of thumb probably applies to headphones as well as speakers.
> 
> I usually think, Headphones>DAC, Source>Amp>Cables> various other magical devices... such as USB decrapification... is a reasonable order for investment in this hobby.


 
 I agree although I think go at least 1/2 your budget on the cans, and I'd change the order to Source>Headphones>Amp>DAC>cables and *magic* lol. By that I mean crap recordings will sound worse, not better through high-end gear. For the real garbage an AM radio is better.


----------



## sunneebear

mandrake50 said:


> I got a set of the Burson discrete opamps a couple of weeks ago. I still have not installed them. *It is interesting to note that they make the H10 run hotter.*
> I will install them as soon as my left hand re-covers from the trauma that I imposed on it.
> In the mean time, can you comment more on how the Bursons sound compared to stock? I usually do not ask this kind of question, as everyone perceives sound differently. I noticed that a few people said that they bought the Bursons, but other than the OP on the subject (who said they sound like "nothing") I have not read any more comprehensive descriptions of how they compare to stock. Until I can listen for myself, I am curious.


 
  
 They do not make the H10 run hotter.  The Burson op-amps generate more heat than their IC counterparts.  The dual's which are two single boards back to back are about twice as hot as the singles.


----------



## mandrake50

sunneebear said:


> They do not make the H10 run hotter.  The Burson op-amps generate more heat than their IC counterparts.  The dual's which are two single boards back to back are about twice as hot as the singles.


 

 OK... semantics.. The H10 produces more overall heat when using them... I can feel/measure a higher case temperature... True?
  
 If so... in general terms, the Bursons "make" the H10 run hotter. They generate more heat.... they raise the case temperature, they raise the internal temperature..
 They  contribute to the total amount of  heat generated .. yes?  Now how is it that they don't make it run overall hotter?? So how can you say that they do not make it  run hotter???
  
 I am not worried too much about that. I want to hear about people's impressions in the sound difference from stock.


----------



## Jhya

The stock op amps on the H10 contributes to what most people describe the amp as warm and soft sound. I feel especially the top end was kind of "veiled" when listening to my LCD2f, the detail was all there, but sounded more distant.

With the Bursons set, the H10 brings the sound right up to the stage. Every note sounds crystal clear and the soundstage feels very 3 dimensional. The bass hits harder and music more dynamic. The sound is still on the warm and smooth side, but the veil feels like it has been lifted.

You should do a A/B testing on your side to hear the difference for yourself. It is a very significant improvement in the overall sound.


----------



## BassDigger

jhya said:


> The stock op amps on the H10 contributes to what most people describe the amp as warm and soft sound. I feel especially* the top end* *was kind of "veiled" when listening to my LCD2f, the detail was all there, but sounded more distant.*
> 
> With the Bursons set, the H10 brings the sound right up to the stage. Every note sounds crystal clear and the soundstage feels very 3 dimensional. *The bass hits harder* and music more dynamic. The sound is still on the warm and smooth side, but *the veil feels like it has been lifted*.
> 
> You should do a A/B testing on your side to hear the difference for yourself. It is a very significant improvement in the overall sound.


 
  
 Interesting! Anything that improves bass quality has my attention. But also, the 'veil' may well be how I could describe my impression of the rolled off nature of the H10's treble extremes.
 (And, we use the same 'phones! Are yours fitted with the micro-suede pads?)
  
 But, I'll certainly be trying some I/C replacement op-amps first; the AD797's are mentioned, repeatedly, and they're a fraction of the price!


----------



## genclaymore

Yea the AD797's are very good, I should had got them first instead of getting some LME4990's first. Would had saved me some money.


----------



## spaech

Does anyone have experience ordering op-amps from Aliexpress? They seem to have quite cheap prices compared to mouser and others. What would be the likelihood of getting fakes for, e.g. AD797BRZs?


----------



## mandrake50

jhya said:


> The stock op amps on the H10 contributes to what most people describe the amp as warm and soft sound. I feel especially the top end was kind of "veiled" when listening to my LCD2f, the detail was all there, but sounded more distant.
> 
> With the Bursons set, the H10 brings the sound right up to the stage. Every note sounds crystal clear and the soundstage feels very 3 dimensional. The bass hits harder and music more dynamic. The sound is still on the warm and smooth side, but the veil feels like it has been lifted.
> 
> You should do a A/B testing on your side to hear the difference for yourself. It is a very significant improvement in the overall sound.


 

 I may do that, but I find that when it takes minutes to make a change it becomes difficult for me to detect differences, unless it is a glaring difference.
 Once my hand heals, I will pop the Burson cards in and give it a listen.
 Thanks for the impressions!


----------



## swannie007

I never thought I would ever be posting the following but here goes;
 Right now I am listening to a combination that I discovered purely by accident. The first part of the equation is the Gustard H10 paired with the X10 dac fed with AAC files from my mini Mac with, and here is the shocker!!..... a pair of inexpensive in-ear earphones from MI, the Xiaomi Piston III's. I can not believe how good this combo sounds! It is just shocking. These are sub $100.00 earphones and they sound fantastic to my ears fed by the Gustard combo. If I didn't know any better and had to guess at a price for the earphones, I would have guessed a few hundred dollars worth. 
 I am listening to Sena Ehrhardt (Live My Life) and am absolutely enthralled. Talk about synergy. Those of you who might have this combo, give it a try, you will be mighty surprised. A happy discovery indeed.
 Just wanted to share a gem with others here. Cheers.
 P.S. Beth Hart sounds pretty damn good as well!


----------



## GioF71

rynsin said:


> Interesting! Thanks for letting me on your experience there.
> 
> I haven't had an issue with any of my USB devices, so maybe the Wyrd won't do much for my setup. My friend has one, though, and I've been wondering why my Arch box has such a hard time talking to my USB DAC (cuts in and out, suddenly stops, occasionally becomes very noisy). Maybe I'll borrow a Wyrd and see if it helps.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Rynsin.
 I still could not execute the test you were asking (switching my chains for more in-depth comparison of the reasons for better audio), but I have more information to share about 'bits are bits'.
 They are, but only if we simply talk about what is going to be played (the bits).
 The way (and the timing) the bits are sent to the dac is another topic. Also, interferences come into play. A signal is essential something analog, even when it carries digital data.
 When you transfer files on USB, the system can execute retries, error correction. There are people around who can corroborate these basic topic with a more scientific argumentation.
  
 The playback of audio must happen in real-time, so there are no retries, no error correction (at least until now with the current usb audio protocol, AFAIK).
 So while bits are bits, the audio result vary really a lot.
  
 I have an example.
 One of my DACs is a SMSL Sanskrit. I use it mainly at the office on on a very old system when I am on vacation.
 Well, this DAC works quite well with the USB connection, even 96kHz, on the desktop PC of my office, but it does not work on the lapton I have in my office. I have concluded this does not depend on different O.S.: the desktop is a Linux and the notebook is a win7.
 It does not depend on the O.S. simply because I have observed that, on my home Win7 desktop, the DAC works quite well @96kHz (as with the Linux desktop) while, again, it does not work @96kHz on my own laptop.
  
 Also, I have a usb interface (M2Tech HiFace2) showing similar issues depending on the quality of the USB interface.
 A decent interface I bought recently (again with the XMOS chip), with a built-in power supply, works really a lot better in all the conditions I mentioned before.
  
 I don't know what are your experiences with USB audio, but, while some time ago my thoughts were similar to yours about 'bits are bits', I am a lot more cautious now...


----------



## mikey1964

Gosh, perhaps my expectations are somewhat lower than others, but the H10 + X12 stack is my end game stack. Ain't gonna bother nor am I interested in expanding any more time and effort (and let's not forget money!) in another dac or amp. I'm quite happy with what I'm hearing with the H10/X12 stack, especially on my HE500. Now, next up is either an Angie or Roxanne UF......and the DT1770.


----------



## spaech

giof71 said:


> Hello Rynsin.
> I still could not execute the test you were asking (switching my chains for more in-depth comparison of the reasons for better audio), but I have more information to share about 'bits are bits'.
> They are, but only if we simply talk about what is going to be played (the bits).
> The way (and the timing) the bits are sent to the dac is another topic. Also, interferences come into play. A signal is essential something analog, even when it carries digital data.
> ...


 
 If your usb data channel has so much noise that packets are being dropped left and right, that indicates that a. you have a pretty rare problem, and b. you will experience issues with everything plugged into that bus at any data rate. On the other hand, if your noise is on the ground (like I have) then that noise can be audible at all sample rates but won't stop the dac operating at any speed up to & including 192khz. So I would say your issue most likely has nothing to do with noise, and is a problem with driver or bandwidth or implementation.


----------



## BassDigger

Reposted: post #403


----------



## GioF71

spaech said:


> If your usb data channel has so much noise that packets are being dropped left and right, that indicates that a. you have a pretty rare problem, and b. you will experience issues with everything plugged into that bus at any data rate. On the other hand, if your noise is on the ground (like I have) then that noise can be audible at all sample rates but won't stop the dac operating at any speed up to & including 192khz. So I would say your issue most likely has nothing to do with noise, and is a problem with driver or bandwidth or implementation.


 
  
 The problem with the SMSL has nothing to do with drivers, as it presents on the usb connection which is class 1 (no driver needed on any o.s.).
  
 Also, these kind of issues always happen with laptops in my case; the same DAC works fine with any desktop PC i tried, regardless of the operating system.
 Also, the same laptop computers have no issues with other dac/interfaces, for example the gustard x12/u12, the new audiophonics usb interface I bought or the Yulong D200.
  
 My point is that the problem might still be in the dac itself (a poor usb implementation). After all we are talking of quite a low-end dac. I'm not trying to solve its problems, just to point out how many factors are in usb audio, apart from the 'bits' alone.


----------



## GioF71

bassdigger said:


> My actual understanding of the technicalities is probably no better than yours, but I think that you've got the right idea.
> 
> There are many different protocols for the transport, and use, of digital data. 'Bits are bits', in our field of interest, only really applies when we are copying, or moving a music file, e.g. from cd-rom to pc (using a craptastic cd drive), or even sending the file over the internet. This is all FTP and 'bits are bits' are bits; it doesn't matter, as long as the file is complete, the data is intact; it's the same data at the end of the process, as it was at the beginning. E.g. downloading a flac file doesn't lose any of its quality. And that data may have travelled around the world a few times!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Couldn't have explained it better... thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 About the transport, I agree. My 'dedicated transport' currently is the dedicated linux Atom PC with its linear PSU and the Schiit Wyrd.
 Quite happy at the moment. Still, a better PSU, with dedicated 12v, 5v etc voltage rails, would be even nicer.


----------



## spaech

giof71 said:


> The problem with the SMSL has nothing to do with drivers, as it presents on the usb connection which is class 1 (no driver needed on any o.s.).


 
 It's worth pointing out that it can still be a driver issue, since proprietary drivers can address the hardware in different ways to the inbuilt windows drivers. Often installing the proprietary driver solves problems like this. I'm not saying this is the issue, just that it can't be ruled out as a plausible cause. If you are curious, you could try installing the driver from smsl on the laptop and see if that helps.


----------



## GioF71

spaech said:


> It's worth pointing out that it can still be a driver issue, since proprietary drivers can address the hardware in different ways to the inbuilt windows drivers. Often installing the proprietary driver solves problems like this. I'm not saying this is the issue, just that it can't be ruled out as a plausible cause. If you are curious, you could try installing the driver from smsl on the laptop and see if that helps.


 
  
 you're right, thought I wouldn't like much such a solution. The windows driver wouldn't fix problems (if any) on Linux.
 Anyway I didn't even know a class 1 usb driver was provided by SMSL, can you privide a link?


----------



## spaech

giof71 said:


> you're right, thought I wouldn't like much such a solution. The windows driver wouldn't fix problems (if any) on Linux.
> Anyway I didn't even know a class 1 usb driver was provided by SMSL, can you privide a link?


 
 They host their drivers here (not sure which model your dac is): http://smsl-audio.com/index.php?c=list&cs=ziliaoxiazai


----------



## GioF71

spaech said:


> They host their drivers here (not sure which model your dac is): http://smsl-audio.com/index.php?c=list&cs=ziliaoxiazai


 
  
 Thanks a lot, will try.
 Just to clarify: when I use the SMSL Sanskrit on a windows 7 laptop, it's not that it does not work at all.
 It works quite fine @44.1kHz and @48kHz.
 @96kHz (and also @88.2kHz, fwiw) there is a lot of static noise and eventually dropouts.
 As I mentioned, no issues on my other pcs apart from the two laptops I have at home and office.
 More, I am not implying that ANY laptop will have the issue. Also, I didn't try different cables as I didn't have any at hand expect the standard usb cable provided by SMSL.


----------



## spaech

bassdigger said:


> People tend to regard jitter as just a single phenomenon. But i think that it's more all-encompassing than that. Timing is what music is all about. Timing is what makes music musical. Timing is not only the beat, rhythm and tempo, it's the frequencies that create the notes themselves. So if something has a susceptibility to timing errors, aka jitter, i think that some emphasis should be placed on choosing components that are key to reducing the effects of this. This is why some people, myself included, prefer to use a dedicated transport.


 
 It's interesting to break it down conceptually in order to figure out what's plausible and what kinds of perceptible artifacts we might experience from issues like usb timing errors. I think relating it to beat and tempo can be a little misleading because we can only perceive changes in time/tempo in the order of 10+ milliseconds. The entire waveform shifting in the order of 10+ms resulting in perceptible alteration to beat/temp is not a plausible manifestation of usb timing jitter -- the waveform is only going to be shifted temporally on very small time scales closer to the actual sample rate. So for the sake of clarity, when were talking about the audible manifestation of timing jitter, it's not of this kind where the entire waveform is being shifted perceptibly.
  
 So what might timing jitter actually sound like? If it were purely random noise resulting in sampling points being shifted temporally relative to one another, that would only manifest as frequency changes in the 22khz+ range (assuming we're at 44.1 sample rate), i.e. outside the range of human hearing. So we're not going to hear that kind of jitter. What we might hear however is the cumulative effect of a consistent timing error over time, resulting in a fundamental frequency of minor variations in the waveform's amplitude. Which we would expect to manifest as a sort of "warble" on top of the sound. The question in my mind is how common this actually is in practice and whether it does manifest in a perceptible way, and that comes down to measurements and blind listening tests.
  
 The idea here isn't to dismiss the possibility of jitter effects having a perceptible manifestation, but to narrow down plausible mechanisms and expected sonic colouring it might cause. If we understand what jitter can actually do in practice, then if we're experiencing artifacts, we can avoid attributing it to the wrong cause.


----------



## spaech

giof71 said:


> Thanks a lot, will try.
> Just to clarify: when I use the SMSL Sanskrit on a windows 7 laptop, it's not that it does not work at all.
> It works quite fine @44.1kHz and @48kHz.
> @96kHz (and also @88.2kHz, fwiw) there is a lot of static noise and eventually dropouts.
> ...


 
 Interesting. I guess the laptop could be having trouble keeping up with resampling, but that seems unlikely and I'm not sure if it would explain the static noise. This is the sort of thing you might see when using ASIO for output. If you up the sampling rate with ASIO you can get artifacts and dropouts because your system can't keep up. But I'm not sure if the same principle applies for the windows audio engine. It'd be interesting to see whether a different cable helps. Also whether you get the same issues on battery power vs mains.


----------



## GioF71

Hello.
 No, the tracks were nativelly @88.2 or @96kHz. No resampling dsp was active.
 Still, the same issues were noted when artificially upsampling with sox or pphs on foobar2000.
 ASIO did not make any relevant difference over wasapi.
 I obviosly tried wasapi both event and push style, and also tried to increased the buffer length.
 Nothing helped at all, leading me to think it's a matter of interference on the usb power/signal, while the pc was able to keep up.
  
  
 I think probably battery power would help. Or the schiit wyrd.
 But, at least basic functionality is desired with standard equipment. Such things should deliver improvements, not functionality. Do you agree?
  
 That was the reason while I send my previous interface (not this SMSL Sanskrit DAC) back for refund. I sort of worked at last with the Wyrd (this had issues with every single system I use), but to me this was plain unacceptable.
 As I mentioned earlier, the spdif interface I later bought from Audiophonics works perfectly with all the systems I work with as well as my other DACs (Yulong D200, Gustard X12 and U12) do.


----------



## BassDigger

Reposted: post #404


----------



## spaech

giof71 said:


> Hello.
> No, the tracks were nativelly @88.2 or @96kHz. No resampling dsp was active.
> Still, the same issues were noted when artificially upsampling with sox or pphs on foobar2000.
> ASIO did not make any relevant difference over wasapi.
> ...


 
 It sounds as though you did a good amount of debugging. In terms of whether devices like the Wyrd should deliver improvements or functionality, I guess it depends how you define that. If noisy usb is causing audible static and failure at 96khz and the wyrd cleared that up, then I'd say the fault lies with the usb / motherboard. From the perspective of the DAC manufacturer, they can't be expected to engineer a product that will function on a usb interface that's not operating to spec. I think it's reasonable that you returned the DAC simply because it wasn't working to your satisfaction regardless of the cause. The fact that you didn't have any problems at 48khz is a little strange to me, and I don't fully understand why you'd get static/failure at 96khz but not 48khz if the problem is caused by noisy usb. In any case I'm glad other equipment resolved the issue.
  


bassdigger said:


> I think that you've mentioned before that you're a scientist (maybe in a different field). Am I right? Anyway, your understanding seems to be deeper than mine, and your thought process is certainly more systematic!
> 
> I guess I was being intentionally generalistic; I just think that jitter is probably more of a culprit than can currently be explained. But, I wasn't suggesting that we can actually hear jitter; rather that its effects could have influences on any aspect of musical reproduction, through its effects on any process or equipment, or even its effects on how we perceive the music.
> 
> In the end, it's the sound that counts. The challenge is for science to prove where the correlations are genuine and discount the incorrect theories (and internet ramblings of bass loving posters). To define what are the exact effects and manifestations, of jitter, all the way through the chain, to the human brain. It's a long path (maybe not so long, in my case). But it seems to me that, as understanding improves, jitter has an ever growing list of misdemeanors!


 
 Heh, I don't think I mentioned it but yeah I do work in academia. Not in audio though, and I'm by no means an expert so I wouldn't trust that I'm getting everything right with what I post here. I know that humans can only perceive timing & tempo changes in music in the order of 10+ ms because I do a bit of music production, and 10ms is about the lowest latency that a professional musician can detect when monitoring their own playing. It's even harder to detect if we don't have that physical feedback (like plucking a string) that tells us where the note _should_ be. So for just listening to music, our ability to perceive whether a beat is slightly off-time is more like 30+ ms. So effectively, even the worst usb timing errors aren't going to manifest as noticeable timing/tempo changes in music.
  
 You mention that we don't hear jitter directly but instead might hear its influences on any aspect of musical reproduction. We're totally on the same page there -- after all, the jitter itself is in the digital realm. There might be various ways it translates into perceptible differences in audio reproduction, and that's what I was trying to narrow down in the earlier post: what are the plausible manifestations that would be perceptible. My conclusion was that it would manifest as a "warble" overtone, sort of like a harmonic or subharmonic, but with a fixed frequency dependent on the timing error. There might be other ways that timing jitter could manifest but this is what makes sense to me. In any case it's all theoretical, and I'd be more interested in seeing measurements & blind tests that quantify the effect. Personally I have about zero trust in sighted listening tests.


----------



## mandrake50

spaech said:


> If your usb data channel has so much noise that packets are being dropped left and right, that indicates that a. you have a pretty rare problem, and b. you will experience issues with everything plugged into that bus at any data rate. On the other hand, if your noise is on the ground (like I have) then that noise can be audible at all sample rates but won't stop the dac operating at any speed up to & including 192khz. So I would say your issue most likely has nothing to do with noise, and is a problem with driver or bandwidth or implementation.


 
 Or possibly simply with his laptop. I have several laptop machines from over the last 8 years. Other than the two most recent vintage machines,that were pretty high end, one about 6 months old with i7, 16 gig of Ram and SSD, will play anything I throw at it. The three year old machine also an i7  (about two generations older)16 gig of RAM and SSD struggles with DSD and DXD. This is using the same cables and other gear. I got a tool to measure latency..  *link*... the older machine was borderline at 500 to sometimes over 1000 ms (quite enough to wreck audio)
 I wouldn't assign blame to cables or noise in the circumstances described. It is likely  hardware ... based on my experience.


----------



## spaech

mandrake50 said:


> Or possibly simply with his laptop. I have several laptop machines from over the last 8 years. Other than the two most recent vintage machines,that were pretty high end, one about 6 months old with i7, 16 gig of Ram and SSD, will play anything I throw at it. The three year old machine also an i7  (about two generations older)16 gig of RAM and SSD struggles with DSD and DXD. This is using the same cables and other gear. I got a tool to measure latency..  *link*... the older machine was borderline at 500 to sometimes over 1000 ms (quite enough to wreck audio)
> I wouldn't assign blame to cables or noise in the circumstances described. It is likely  hardware ... based on my experience.


 
 Yeah you're right, cables causing that issue is a bit of a stretch.
  
 For a bit of fun I just tried comparing sine sweeps between rca cables. Test 1 was the 6" schiit pyst interconnect, test 2 was 1.5m audioquest evergreen, test 3 was around 40 feet of rubbish generic rca daisy chained to another 5 foot one. Measured frequency response was identical for all cables, and the waveforms line up identically the whole way through. By ear, they seemed basically the same. The 6" interconnect seemed like it had slightly more resolution than the 40 feet cable, but if there was a difference then I'd judge it's a smaller effect than placebo. I couldn't do a proper comparison with a blind test. Anyway, this somewhat confirms what I already suspected, cables matter very little for line level signal.


----------



## GioF71

spaech said:


> It sounds as though you did a good amount of debugging. In terms of whether devices like the Wyrd should deliver improvements or functionality, I guess it depends how you define that. If noisy usb is causing audible static and failure at 96khz and the wyrd cleared that up, then I'd say the fault lies with the usb / motherboard. From the perspective of the DAC manufacturer, they can't be expected to engineer a product that will function on a usb interface that's not operating to spec. I think it's reasonable that you returned the DAC simply because it wasn't working to your satisfaction regardless of the cause. The fact that you didn't have any problems at 48khz is a little strange to me, and I don't fully understand why you'd get static/failure at 96khz but not 48khz if the problem is caused by noisy usb. In any case I'm glad other equipment resolved the issue.


 
  
 In reality, it's not the SMSL Sanskrit the item I sent back. It was a spdif interface, chinese brand. I own a nice dac from the same brand, it is very good gear. Also the seller was kind enough, so I really have little to complain. Only, I lost a lot of time trying to make that interface work. It only worked when I bought the Schiit Wyrd.
  
 The SMSL Sanskrit works well in coaxial mode when connected to the Audiophonics interface I bought to replace the previous interface.
 No reason to send it back, considering also the low price.
 The issues in usb mode are only with (my) laptops, so while this dac is not an excellent purchase, it works almost fine. So I am keeping it, even if I am not fully satisfied. As I told I am using it on vacation on a very old system, so the expectations are not that high


----------



## swannie007

So, how about them Dodgers huh?


----------



## BassDigger

swannie007 said:


> So, how about them Dodgers huh?


 
  






 Yeah, I'm sorry for my part in the OT. It didn't occur to me that the dac conversation could have migrated back to this thread, again! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I got caught out and joined in myself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 For what it's worth I've removed my posts.
  
 Anyway, I'm still waiting/hoping for my H10 to find a bit more bass weight and body, with the lcd2f.


----------



## mandrake50

giof71 said:


> In reality, it's not the SMSL Sanskrit the item I sent back. It was a spdif interface, chinese brand. I own a nice dac from the same brand, it is very good gear. Also the seller was kind enough, so I really have little to complain. Only, I lost a lot of time trying to make that interface work. It only worked when I bought the Schiit Wyrd.
> 
> The SMSL Sanskrit works well in coaxial mode when connected to the Audiophonics interface I bought to replace the previous interface.
> No reason to send it back, considering also the low price.
> The issues in usb mode are only with (my) laptops, so while this dac is not an excellent purchase, it works almost fine. So I am keeping it, even if I am not fully satisfied. As I told I am using it on vacation on a very old system, so the expectations are not that high


 

 As they should not be... as I mentioned... many older computers just don't get it for high quality music reproduction... You can't blame any of the peripherals..


----------



## GioF71

mandrake50 said:


> As they should not be... as I mentioned... many older computers just don't get it for high quality music reproduction... You can't blame any of the peripherals..




Well in reality the laptop is a recent i5. 
I was calling 'old' the amplifier and speakers I have in the vacation house (they are really vintage), not the PC.


----------



## Jozurr

What do you guys think is a logical upgrade from the Gustard H10 under $1200? Keeping the similar sound signature. I really like how the Gustard H10 sounds by default. This tubey rounded sound is pretty good. Thinking of upgrading but not sure what to.


----------



## BassDigger

jozurr said:


> What do you guys think is a logical upgrade from the Gustard H10 under $1200? Keeping the similar sound signature. I really like how the Gustard H10 sounds by default. This tubey rounded sound is pretty good. Thinking of upgrading but not sure what to.




It depends on which 'phones you want to drive.
Remember, that's the job of the amp; to drive your chosen headphones. So, the amp should have the correct power characteristics for those 'phones. 

It seems like you'd like a (real) tube amp. I think there're a few, within your budget.


----------



## Jozurr

bassdigger said:


> It depends on which 'phones you want to drive.
> Remember, that's the job of the amp; to drive your chosen headphones. So, the amp should have the correct power characteristics for those 'phones.
> 
> It seems like you'd like a (real) tube amp. I think there're a few, within your budget.


 
  
 I want to drive the HE-560 and potentially the HE-1000 in the future. The thing with real tube amps is, from some that I've heard, the distortion they seem to add isn't nice. It seems to take away some clarity and detail. I'd be open to suggestions on tube amps as well if they don't sacrifice on clarity and detail and giving me an added lower end bump.


----------



## BassDigger

jozurr said:


> I want to drive the HE-560 and potentially the HE-1000 in the future. The thing with real tube amps is, from some that I've heard, the distortion they seem to add isn't nice. It seems to take away some clarity and detail. I'd be open to suggestions on tube amps as well if they don't sacrifice on clarity and detail and giving me an added lower end bump.




Tube amps do have a questionable rep. But I think that this is as much to do with low quality designs as it is a tube trait. 
I think that you have a few options: the Bottlehead s.e.x. and Woo WA6 SE are two that come to mind.


----------



## DDDamian

^^^ agreed on two great choices. Many tube amps (and tubes) are not "tubey" as some may think. The BH S.E.X for sure isn't.


----------



## mandrake50

giof71 said:


> Well in reality the laptop is a recent i5.
> I was calling 'old' the amplifier and speakers I have in the vacation house (they are really vintage), not the PC.


 
 Try running that latency checker  sometime. It showed me some interesting differences between what I thought should be relatively equivalent computers.


----------



## GioF71

Replied here to avoid further O.T.: http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/405#post_11846911


----------



## Noodlz

Hey guys so i'm looking into doing the opamp upgrade, i'm still a bit confused tho. As i've read so far it seems the recommendation includes a combo of 2x AD797 and 2x AD823? which specific ones? Are these it? Or is it supposed to be BRZ?
  
 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD797ANZ/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9yaQC4TiGCZp%252bzjCMT2SR57u%252bnPplTOQ%3d
  
 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD823ANZ/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvtNjJQt4UgLalm6EXZly%2fyoPJKwUvrNKE%3d
  
 Also, is there a specific post that goes into the details of where /how to install them? (i.e. the 2x AD797 on the right side/front, and the 2x AD823 goes in the back? or is it the other way around?)


----------



## BassDigger

Yeah, I think that it would be very helpful if someone were put together a sort of H10 op-amp tutorial. Something that we can easily refer to.
  
 I've been doing my best to keep notes of the op-amp comments; I've copy and pasted many sentences (into a notepad doc), but now it doesn't make much sense to me.
  
 It seems that the most recommended op-amps are the AD797brz. But, are there single and twin versions? Which slots are they for? Are they sided or directional?
  
 The apparent faves for the other slots are the AD823. Again, single, twin? I don't know.
  
 And of course, we're always interested to hear about people's experiences and comparisons. Has anyone found a better op-amp than the 797, or better partner for it? How do those (different price league) discrete modules compare?
  
 And lastly, talking of price: did I dream that someone put a link to a webpage offering free (trial) op-amps?


----------



## stuartmc

noodlz said:


> Hey guys so i'm looking into doing the opamp upgrade, i'm still a bit confused tho. As i've read so far it seems the recommendation includes a combo of 2x AD797 and 2x AD823? which specific ones? Are these it? Or is it supposed to be BRZ?
> 
> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD797ANZ/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9yaQC4TiGCZp%252bzjCMT2SR57u%252bnPplTOQ%3d
> 
> ...




You've got it right. The ANZ models are correct. Also correct with the placement. The 797's are single opamps that replace the opa134's and the 823's are dual opamps that replace the 5532's. Open her up and look closely. You will see the numbers on the chips. There is also a circle that marks pin 1 on each chip and a notch cut out of the end. Replace the chips with the same pin and notch orientation and you're done. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.


----------



## GioF71

bassdigger said:


> Yeah, I think that it would be very helpful if someone were put together a sort of H10 op-amp tutorial. Something that we can easily refer to.


 
   
Agreed. I might consider upgrading but I don't know much of opamps, so a tutorial would be very nice!!


----------



## genclaymore

stuartmc said:


> You've got it right. The ANZ models are correct. Also correct with the placement. The 797's are single opamps that replace the opa134's and the 823's are dual opamps that replace the 5532's. Open her up and look closely. You will see the numbers on the chips. There is also a circle that marks pin 1 on each chip and a notch cut out of the end. Replace the chips with the same pin and notch orientation and you're done. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.


 

 Hows the 823 top end on your end is it bright or warm. as I looking for a op-amp that similar to the LT1469 but have 3Dish sound stage with tame Highs.While having tight accurate bass. That isn't a metal can op-amp and can be gotten in Dip-8 and doesn't cost a arm and a leg like the muses.


----------



## stuartmc

genclaymore said:


> Hows the 823 top end on your end is it bright or warm. as I looking for a op-amp that similar to the LT1469 but have 3Dish sound stage with tame Highs.While having tight accurate bass. That isn't a metal can op-amp and can be gotten in Dip-8 and doesn't cost a arm and a leg like the muses.


 
 I tried several dual opamps to replace the NE5532 and I liked the 823 the best.  It seems to match up beautifully with its stable mate, the 797. The 823 is known to be a very high resolution opamp and its great in the sound stage department. It is not "warm" on top. I think it is quite neutral for having such an extended top end.  If you are looking to "tame" the highs, that suggests to me that you are finding the stock configuration to be too bright. If that is the case, I don't think you will like the 823's.  I would also consider other solutions to your treble problem. I have found that power conditioning, coupled with careful emi/rfi shielding is most effective at delivering that more relaxed, smooth treble that we crave.  I recently replaced all my fuses with a variety that is ceramic and cryogenically treated.  I was quite surprised that this too enhanced  the relaxed, liquid presentation.


----------



## stuartmc

Just a little more on the 823 sound....
  
 In my setup it didn't produce a bigger stage, just more focused and easier to pick up image locations. This may in fact make the sound stage seem more intimate.  This chip has the macro/micro- dynamics nailed!  It gives a very exciting almost punchy sound. What I call "jump factor" is very high with this one.  Some might call this an "aggressive" sound (in fact I read some reviews that used this very word), but to me it just seemed more like listening to live music.  Both frequency extremes are handled well with this chip. The top end, as I said before, is very extended and is probably why the 823 images so well. The bass isn't noticeably lower, but it is noticeably tighter than the other opamps I tried.
 Opamps are about "flavors" for the H10.  They are not going to turn salmon steak into filet mignon, but they may just make your favorite dish that much more savory.


----------



## genclaymore

Actually I not on the stock Config for the H10, I been using the AD797 in the single channel sockets and originally the LT1489 which worked very well with the bifrost uber. Once I got the Gustard X12 I had to removed it for the LT1469, Which worked very well. I asked about the AD823 as i seen quiet a few people mention it was bright but could been their config. I mentioned tame highs as alot of the existing op-amps I already have that I tried with the X12 in the chain was either Bright or too much detailed but did sound good but with that major con. Tho the LT1469 highs is neutral it just I just wish it sound image was more 3Dish and maybe a tad more accurate bass.


----------



## stuartmc

genclaymore said:


> Actually I not on the stock Config for the H10, I been using the AD797 in the single channel sockets and originally the LT1489 which worked very well with the bifrost uber. Once I got the Gustard X12 I had to removed it for the LT1469, Which worked very well. I asked about the AD823 as i seen quiet a few people mention it was bright but could been their config. I mentioned tame highs as alot of the existing op-amps I already have that I tried with the X12 in the chain was either Bright or too much detailed but did sound good but with that major con. Tho the LT1469 highs is neutral it just I just wish it sound image was more 3Dish and maybe a tad more accurate bass.




Ah, I see. The X12 is quite revealing and will definitely have an impact on what you're hearing through the H10. This stuff is so system dependent that I wouldn't make any universal recommendations, especially with opamps. I'm using highly tweaked/modified HE-560 cans and everything else I have is tuned to them and my unique set of ears.


----------



## Noodlz

Thanks for all the advice cap~ i just ordered the pairs of AD797ANZ & AD823ANZ from mouser. Hopefully they'll match up well in my setup since im using a Yulong D200 instead of the X12, i'm hoping that doesnt turn out too bright since the D200 is using a ES9016 chip, then again my H10 is mostly connected to my LCD2 which could use a little bit more brightness. We shall see soon! =)


----------



## stuartmc

noodlz said:


> Thanks for all the advice cap~ i just ordered the pairs of AD797ANZ & AD823ANZ from mouser. Hopefully they'll match up well in my setup since im using a Yulong D200 instead of the X12, i'm hoping that doesnt turn out too bright since the D200 is using a ES9016 chip, then again my H10 is mostly connected to my LCD2 which could use a little bit more brightness. We shall see soon! =)




I would love to do a direct comparison of the X12 to D200. When people talk about Sabre glare, as if it is inherent to the chip itself, the yulong is frequently mentioned along with Matrix. I haven't heard either, but the X12 and X20 don't have any "glare" that I can detect. When I say that the Gustard dacs are revealing, I mean that they resolve very low level information that hovers around the noise floor. It's definitely not hyped treble.


----------



## Noodlz

Ah, yeah actually originally i wanted to get an X12, but then i came across a deal that was too good to pass up with the D200, so now i'm probably going to stay with it until i take the dive / leap for the X20 =P which might be a little while.I imagine that the X12 & the D200 should be in very similar ballparks, with the D200 sounding probably slightly brighter. If you were in Cali i would just bring my unit over lol. maybe the next time theres a head-fi meet that i attend i can bring the D200 and someone else can bring a X12 and we can do a comparison


----------



## GioF71

stuartmc said:


> I would love to do a direct comparison of the X12 to D200. When people talk about Sabre glare, as if it is inherent to the chip itself, the yulong is frequently mentioned along with Matrix. I haven't heard either, but the X12 and X20 don't have any "glare" that I can detect. When I say that the Gustard dacs are revealing, I mean that they resolve very low level information that hovers around the noise floor. It's definitely not hyped treble.


 
  
 I have both DACs. Can you suggest some specific tests, I will be glad to report my impressions.
  
 Cheers


----------



## stuartmc

giof71 said:


> I have both DACs. Can you suggest some specific tests, I will be glad to report my impressions.
> 
> Cheers




Just A/B them with the same high resolution source material and be sure to level match them. List your associated gear and we're good to go.


----------



## javb06

Has anyone compared the Yulong A18 to the H10?


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> .... The ANZ models are correct. Also correct with the placement. The 797's are single opamps that replace the opa134's and the 823's are dual opamps that replace the 5532's. Open her up and look closely. You will see the numbers on the chips. There is also a circle that marks pin 1 on each chip and a notch cut out of the end. Replace the chips with the same pin and notch orientation and you're done. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.


 
  
 Thank you cap'n.
  
 I'll probably wait a while longer, allow for more burn in, get used to the stock signature and maybe do some A/Bing with my other amp. But I'm looking forward to the op-amp rolling (swabbing) experiment.
  
 Regarding sourcing the op-amps: I'm probably clutching at straws here, but do you recall seeing a post linking to free 'trial' op-amps?


----------



## morob7

bassdigger said:


> Regarding sourcing the op-amps: I'm probably clutching at straws here, but do you recall seeing a post linking to free 'trial' op-amps?



Try the Analog Devices web site. I believe they offer samples for some opamps. Not sure if they are intended for consumers, but worth a shot.


----------



## mandrake50

morob7 said:


> Try the Analog Devices web site. I believe they offer samples for some opamps. Not sure if they are intended for consumers, but worth a shot.


 
 There was a direct link posted a page or two back.
 I went through the process and received a pair of AD797ANZ at no cost. They ask a bunch of questions and take a day or two to approve the "order". But they send them out USPS priority mail so I got them in about 4 days after the order.


----------



## stuartmc

morob7 said:


> Try the Analog Devices web site. I believe they offer samples for some opamps. Not sure if they are intended for consumers, but worth a shot.


 
 No, the samples are clearly not intended for regular consumers/hobbyists.  Personally, I wouldn't feel right about exploiting their developers program and more than likely, you will have to lie about your intentions.  We're not talking about a lot of money here folks. It's about $20 for a pair of 797's and $14 for a pair of 823's. We are audiophiles, we are noble and most importantly, we are Swabbies aboard the SS Gustard!  So do the right thing, Ha ha.


----------



## mandrake50

I told them exactly what I was doing ... in general terms, they approved the request.  That is, trying different Opamps to compare sound in trying to optimize an amplifier. I had actually purchased a set before asking for samples.
  
 I don't believe that it is clear at all that the samples are not for hobbyists. Rather, they are an inexpensive way for Analog Devices to promote their products.


----------



## Noodlz

Question about the AD797's. what's the difference between the ANZ, BRZ, and ARZ? Do they all fit / work in the H10?


----------



## mandrake50

"WEll look what I found, the "Quality" grading i was talking about. Ahh who knows if it means anything what I was emailed back about the product codes-

 "The first letter, A','B','S' means OPAMP Grade' and the quality is better in following order.

 A' < B' < S'

 The second letter, U','M','P' means package type'.

 P: DIP type

 U: SMD(SOIC-8) type

 M: Metal Can type(It protects against the noise and electricity)"
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/432749/the-opamp-thread/4185


----------



## natemact

Here's some info on the difference between BRZ and ARZ 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/191319-ad797brz-vs-ad797arz.html


----------



## stuartmc

noodlz said:


> Question about the AD797's. what's the difference between the ANZ, BRZ, and ARZ? Do they all fit / work in the H10?


 
 The ANZ variety is the only one that fits our socket, being an 8 pin Dip, rather than surface mount, so that should be all that matters. The first letter is the "grade" of the chip and 'A' is lower grade than 'B.'  They sample several chips from a large batch and measure them for various deviations in extreme environments, like how much they drift in a very high temperature.  For our application, it is fairly meaningless. I believe the second letter is the form factor of the chip.   So just get the ANZ variant and be happy.
  
 Yea, what they said above, lol


----------



## Noodlz

Ah great thanks guys. i already got the AD797ANZ actually, but was just curious about the other types, since a couple other people had mentioned BRZ's earlier. (side note if the H10 only fits the ANZ, how'd you guys get the BRZs to fit on? Or was it just typos / mix ups?)


----------



## stuartmc

noodlz said:


> Ah great thanks guys. i already got the AD797ANZ actually, but was just curious about the other types, since a couple other people had mentioned BRZ's earlier. (side note if the H10 only fits the ANZ, how'd you guys get the BRZs to fit on? Or was it just typos / mix ups?)


 
 Danged if I know. The others are all surface mounts. You'd have to de-solder the sockets  and then do a nifty job of soldering on the surface mount tabs.  Nobody's got time for that.


----------



## Jozurr

So I have had the H10 for quite a while, but very new to Op amp rolling (have never opened up and changed anything in my gear ever). I've tried reading a lot of pages on here, but a lot of it doesn't make sense to me (maybe I need more time to go through them much slower).
  
 What exactly are the options available and what is the SQ consensus on those options? If someone can summarise something it'll make it so much more easier for me, and for any new member's who are buying the H10. I know I can read many many pages and form my opinion. I'm not being lazy and I have tried that and haven't been able to grasp a lot of it, which is why I'm asking for this. 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## stuartmc

Quote: 





jozurr said:


> So I have had the H10 for quite a while, but very new to Op amp rolling (have never opened up and changed anything in my gear ever). I've tried reading a lot of pages on here, but a lot of it doesn't make sense to me (maybe I need more time to go through them much slower).
> 
> What exactly are the options available and what is the SQ consensus on those options? If someone can summarise something it'll make it so much more easier for me, and for any new member's who are buying the H10. I know I can read many many pages and form my opinion. I'm not being lazy and I have tried that and haven't been able to grasp a lot of it, which is why I'm asking for this.
> 
> Thanks!


 
 I can understand the confusion if you have never done this sort of thing before, but honestly, this is about as simple as it gets. If you have changed a light bulb, or a fuse in your homes circuit box, you have done the mechanical/technical equivalent of swapping out the two sets of op-amp chips in the H10.   If you open your H10 up and take a look, it will be very clear.

 Our amplifiers circuit board has these handy little sockets  that allow you  to pull out and pop in corresponding op-amp chips that have the same eight leg configuration.

 This is the stock opa134 single op-amp chip in the H10. There are two of them and I have circled them in red in the picture below. In my case, I substituted the AD797 single op-amp chips for these.

 This the stock Ne5532 dual op-amp chip at the output of the H10.  There are also two of them and I have circled their location in yellow on the picture below. I substituted the AD823 dual op-amp chips for these.
  

  
 I don't have the time or the experience to give you a complete run down on the number of appropriate substitutes and how each effects the sound. You can search the thread for my posts on op-amps and you will find my thoughts on the AD797 and the AD823.  What you are looking for are single and dual opamps that are the electrical equivalents of the opa134 and ne5532 respectively. You can search online and find plenty of examples.  They all sound slightly different so you could drive yourself crazy and spend a lot of dollars on a  plethora of op-amps, or, you can do a little online searching and find the ones that people seem to agree give the sound signature you are looking for.
  
 Hope this helps... I just don't have the time..... ha ha.


----------



## Jozurr

stuartmc said:


> I can understand the confusion if you have never done this sort of thing before, but honestly, this is about as simple as it gets. If you have changed a light bulb, or a fuse in your homes circuit box, you have done the mechanical/technical equivalent of swapping out the two sets of op-amp chips in the H10.   If you open your H10 up and take a look, it will be very clear.
> 
> Our amplifiers circuit board has these handy little sockets  that allow you  to pull out and pop in corresponding op-amp chips that have the same eight leg configuration.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Thank you very much! That helps a lot. If I can just ask some follow up questions, which you can respond to whenever you feel you have some time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 1) What is the difference between the single and dual op amps and what do they do? how do they individually affect the sound? (What is the effect or replacing either the single or dual op-amps?)
 2) Do I have to change both the single and dual opamps to match something or various different combos work?
 3) When you replace the opamps, you take away the house sound and change it to something different? basically using the circuitry of the H10 to make the sound closer to what you want? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having the H10 (which is supposed to be a copy sound wise as well of the V200?)
  
 Thanks!


----------



## stuartmc

jozurr said:


> Thank you very much! That helps a lot. If I can just ask some follow up questions, which you can respond to whenever you feel you have some time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 When people ask these sorts of questions, I feel like I should teach them to fish, rather than give them the fish. I'm a lawyer, not an engineer and I have had to teach myself about these things. Earlier on in this thread, I said the following about learning to fish, or in this particular case, "tuning your bow" :
  
_I'm definitely a tweak-a-holic. Everything I own gets fiddled with - cars, bikes, phones, the works. I find it to be particularly gratifying with audio gear. I think we're all frustrated musicians and we want to be part of the musical process in some way. By altering the sound, whether it be by cables, tube rolling, or any other hands on tweaks, we connect with the music on a much deeper level. We might not be the musician or conductor, but in a real, tangible way, we are like the studio engineer sitting at the mixing board getting the sound "just right." My late friend Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenburg used to speak of this as a deep, primitive connection that is hardwired into all of us. Harvey called it "tuning your bow." His take was focused on the gear itself, rather than the music, speaking of being connected to it with the hands on tweaking and transforming the gear into a totem. Either way you look at it, the experience is elevated when you mix the sound, or tune your bow._
  
 That being said, I think you and all the swabbies will really benefit from tuning the H10 bow.  Your questions are valid, but I would rather see you do your own homework for the more complete answers. I will therefore be brief.
  
 1. Think of "operational amplifers" (op-amps) as little programmed amplifiers that combine in one very small package what can be done with a much larger discreet array. They effect the sound the way any amplifier does, just on a smaller scale.
  
 2. You should change both op-amps in each stage. They are representing right and left channels, so you wouldn't want to swap one ad797 for an opa134 and leave the other opa134 in place. That would give you an imbalance in sound, although electrically, it wouldn't hurt the H10 at all.  You can chose to just change the single op-amp chips, or the dual op-amp chips, or both.  I changed out the opa134's first and listened for several days to become familiar with the sound before I then  changed out the ne5532's.
  
 3. As I said before, changing op-amps is not like changing a Salmon Steak to Filet Mignon. It's a little more subtle than that.  I don't think the H10 was supposed to be a sonic copy of the V200. In fact a few of our brothers here say that it is not all that similar sounding.  If you want to "tune your bow" to fit your particular subtle tastes, then op-amp "swabbing" can be a lot of fun.  If you have a hard time hearing differences, or have not yet cultivated an ear for a particular sound, then you might find this exercise a waste of time. I'm assuming you haven't heard the V200 in your system, and neither have I, so why should I care if I'm making my H10 sound more or less like an unknown amplifier.


----------



## swannie007

Well said my captain! Cheers from Oz.


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> I can understand the confusion ...
> 
> *This is the stock opa134 single op-amp chip in the H10. There are two of them and I have circled them in red in the picture below*. In my case, I substituted the AD797 single op-amp chips for these.
> 
> *This the stock Ne5532 dual op-amp chip at the output of the H10.  There are also two of them and I have circled their location in yellow on the picture below.* I substituted the AD823 dual op-amp chips for these.


 
  
 Hi Cap'n. Thanks for the detailed (and illustrated) instructions. (Which I won't repost in their entirety)
  
 I have a query, just for my own curiosity; I don't think that it actually makes any difference for your instructions: The location that you have indicated for the Ne5532/AD823, is this the input or the output?
  
 I only ask, because I think that I can understand the basic layout of the amp (pre-input + amp output), but now I'm not so sure.
  
 Thanks again.


----------



## stuartmc

That would be the input where the ne5532's are. Very near the housings for the xlr input jacks.


----------



## natemact

stuartmc said:


> Danged if I know. The others are all surface mounts. You'd have to de-solder the sockets  and then do a nifty job of soldering on the surface mount tabs.  Nobody's got time for that. :blink:



You can use a SOIC to DIP-8 adapter pre-mounted with a AD797BRZ, such as these here:

http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx

http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2031


----------



## stuartmc

natemact said:


> You can use a SOIC to DIP-8 adapter pre-mounted with a AD797BRZ, such as these here:
> 
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
> 
> http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2031



Hey, that's pretty cool if someone will pre-mount it for you and you don't have a DIP-8 version available. It really does beg the question though- is there any audible difference in our application between an ANZ and a BRZ? I have read some educated opinions that it would not, but I would welcome some thoughts on why it would. Do you have an opinion on this?


----------



## natemact

Sorry don't have much info for ya. There was a nice write up here years ago....
http://www.head-fi.org/t/397691/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-opa-earth-opa-moon-opa-sun-v-2
I'm not convinced yet though, maybe Genclaymore could chime in as he's running BRZ's....


----------



## genclaymore

I haven't used the ANZ either, I only got the BRZ because of a deal i found on a pair of them and it was cheaper then getting Two ANZ's at the time.


----------



## Noodlz

Ok just got my AD797ANZ and AD823ANZ from mouser and installed them earlier today. Was actually pretty easy to install, though the pins are kinda fragile and i was afraid i was gonna snap it when taking them out the first time around. Then i proceeded to listen to em....
  
 HOLY MOLY~ these chips make a huge difference. If you have an H10 you should most definitely look into changing yours. Clarity and soundstage has most definitely improved across the board. Everything is now super-3D and vocals are surreal~ I'm hearing the microdetails that i had barely heard before in total clarity now. On that note though, i do feel like it might be a bit too transparent lol. Previously, the H10 kind smoothed added a touch of warmth to make everything sound creamier, but at the cost of clarity and a tiny bit of muddyness / veil. Now things are CRYSTAL clear, good and bad haha. Overall i am VERY happy though.
  
 ** these are notes with my LCD-2, my new custom SennGradoBeyers, and my 540 ref II (i just sold my HD800 so no notes on that one, sorry =P )


----------



## stuartmc

He he.... Told ya Noodlz. They are quite some Windex, eh?... Cleans the sound windows rather nicely. They need a full day or so of playing to settle in. The very top end will relax a wee bit. Now everything else in your system matters more -- power conditioning, vibration isolation, rfi shielding, you name it.

I had read some comments about the 823's that gave the greatest accolades to its rendering of vocals .....yup, most definitely. I nearly wet myself every time I play Eva Cassidy's stuff, especially Live at the Blues Alley. I don't know why this record is not on everyone's list for best live recordings.


----------



## Noodlz

lol yep you called it. I figured it might take some time to burn in too (burning them in as we speak =P) I've been putting in some work on the power front (furman power conditioner + Analysis Plus Pro Power Oval Power cables & 2 morrow audio MA2 power cables incoming).
  
 I should look into the vibration isolation & the shielding though. i recall you recommended some 3M shielding sheet & also some vibropods for the feet?
  
 I also heard something about like a copper cap to put around the power cables. Also looking to upgrade my USB cable.. oh man this hobby is so dangerous lol.
  
 All that being said, the chips were pretty cheap. i think it cost me like $40 bucks shipped with tax and all. totally worth it.


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> Ok just got my AD797ANZ and AD823ANZ from mouser and installed them earlier today.....
> 
> HOLY MOLY~ these chips make a huge difference. If you have an H10 you should most definitely look into changing yours. Clarity and soundstage has most definitely improved across the board. Everything is now super-3D and vocals are surreal~* I'm hearing the microdetails that i had barely heard before in total clarity now*. On that note though, i do feel like it might be a bit too transparent lol. *Previously, the H10 kind smoothed added a touch of warmth to make everything sound creamier, but at the cost of clarity and a tiny bit of muddyness / veil.* Now things are CRYSTAL clear, good and bad haha. Overall i am VERY happy though.
> 
> ** these are notes with my LCD-2, my new custom SennGradoBeyers, and my 540 ref II (i just sold my HD800 so no notes on that one, sorry =P )


 
  
 Interesting! It's interesting to read that you find a marked change in the treble.
  
 As I've already written; my impression (of the stock H10) is similar, but slightly different; I find that, with the lcd2f, the treble is uneven. The sort of mid-treble, the metallic part of the spectrum, is emphasised, slightly exaggerated. Whereas the treble above this, the highest frequencies, is subdued and rolled off.
  
 What I'm hoping an op-amp swab will do is even out the treble, rather than increase it. I'm currently finding that the combination of lcd2f and standard H10 a little aggressive (but still lacking ultimate clarity) at the top. I wouldn't want to lose any overall warmth (to the bass and mids).
  
 I'm working at getting some AD797s and 823s coming my way.


----------



## Noodlz

Ah~ yeah i'd be very curious to hear your thoughts on the LCD 2F's after you swap out the opamps. on my LCD 2C's the bass and mids haven't changed much if at all in terms of the color / tonality. (though they do have slightly better definition & soundstage. The mid-treble & treble were definitely more rolled off / muddier before, now with the opamps they're crystal clear, i honestly wasn't expecting this much change.
  
 Also to note for those of you with sennheisers, even though i no longer have my HD800s, i bet they would have sounded quite nice. Previously i had used my senn's (HD800, Senngrados, HD 540 ref ii) with the tube amp (valhalla 2) since the H10 was a bit tad too warm / not crisp enough for them. Now with the newfound clarity up top & improved soundstage, they pair up with the H10 quite nicely


----------



## DDDamian

stuartmc said:


> I nearly wet myself every time I play Eva Cassidy's stuff, especially Live at the Blues Alley. I don't know why this record is not on everyone's list for best live recordings.


 
 You mean its not?


----------



## morob7

noodlz said:


> On that note though, i do feel like it might be a bit too transparent lol.



If that is the case, you may want to consider trying one opamp at a time. I am happy with just the AD797 in place. Replacing both may be more than you need.


----------



## Noodlz

Ah~ actually so now having burnt it in since last night, the top end has relaxed now. it's now crisp without being harsh at all. Very happy with both chips in =)


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> Ah~ actually so now having burnt it in since last night,* the top end has relaxed now. it's now crisp without being harsh at all*. Very happy with both chips in =)


----------



## stuartmc

noodlz said:


> Ah~ actually so now having burnt it in since last night, the top end has relaxed now. it's now crisp without being harsh at all. Very happy with both chips in =)




I've been soaking this configuration in for about a month now. It's really excellent when paired with the X20. The enhanced resolution and soundstaging let's the X20's strengths really shine. It's like a multiplier, because they share the same strengths. I'm such an imaging/soundstaging freak, that I wouldn't mind having an electron microscope to peer into it.... So long as it's not grainy or edgy.


----------



## Lohb

stuartmc said:


> I'm such an imaging/soundstaging freak, that I wouldn't mind having an electron microscope to peer into it.... So long as it's not grainy or edgy.


 

 That is what they use HD800 for, I hear.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> He he.... Told ya Noodlz. They are quite some Windex, eh?... Cleans the sound windows rather nicely. They need a full day or so of playing to settle in. The very top end will relax a wee bit. Now everything else in your system matters more -- power conditioning, vibration isolation, rfi shielding, you name it.
> 
> I had read some comments about the 823's that gave the greatest accolades to its rendering of vocals .....yup, most definitely. I nearly wet myself every time I play Eva Cassidy's stuff, especially Live at the Blues Alley. I don't know why this record is not on everyone's list for best live recordings.


 

 Captain, my captain! You are indeed correct about the Eva Cassidy album in question. I am listening to it as I type this and I must say that  through the U12/X10/H10/400i combo it is soul stirring, to say the least!
 I think it is the best rendition of Bridge Over Troubled Waters that I have ever heard! I am also quite partial to Tall Trees In Georgia, People Get Ready(I'm not even religious!) and Fields of Gold. The whole album is truly top notch, thanks for the recommendation, much appreciated. Greetings and best wishes from your "Bosun in the Bush".


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Captain, my captain! You are indeed correct about the Eva Cassidy album in question. I am listening to it as I type this and I must say that  through the U12/X10/H10/400i combo it is soul stirring, to say the least!
> I think it is the best rendition of Bridge Over Troubled Waters that I have ever heard! I am also quite partial to Tall Trees In Georgia, People Get Ready(I'm not even religious!) and Fields of Gold. The whole album is truly top notch, thanks for the recommendation, much appreciated. Greetings and best wishes from your "Bosun in the Bush".


 
 Bosun in the Bush...ha ha, I never tire of saying that!   Eva Cassidy is one of those rare gems who was taken from us far too soon.  I suppose the heavenly choir had need of such a heavenly voice. She first noticed some health issues when Live at Blues Alley was recorded in January of 1996.   She died from melanoma in November of that same year.  Tidal has another album called "The Best of Eva Cassidy" and it has some of the tracks from Live at Blues Alley and a whole bunch of other excellent tracks.  She was suffering from a cold when Blues Alley was done and didn't like the way her voice sounded. I think she sounds amazing, but I have to admit that some of the other studio tracks on Best Of are pretty extraordinary in their own right.  The recording engineer knew what he was doing because her vocals are just about perfect in the soundstage.
  
 The other killer tracks you should check out are - Songbird, Autumn Leaves, Time After Time, True Colors and last, but oh so far from least, I know you by Heart.


----------



## stuartmc

Oh, I should add that I use "Tall Trees in Georgia" as one of my test tracks for new gear and tweaks.  The lead in where she is introducing the song is very revealing of imaging and the sense of acoustic space and the song itself is quite revealing of live guitar sound and vocals.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Oh, I should add that I use "Tall Trees in Georgia" as one of my test tracks for new gear and tweaks.  The lead in where she is introducing the song is very revealing of imaging and the sense of acoustic space and the song itself is quite revealing of live guitar sound and vocals.


 

 I can understand how this track would reveal the sound of space and the timbre of the guitar and I'm sure it would uncover any weakness in a musical listening chain.
 I am listening to "The Best of" at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it. I have had her "Songbird" album for some years now and listen to it frequently and my favourite track is "Fields of Gold". Just stunning!
 I shall put together a list of some of my favourite songbirds that I enjoy with the Gustard stack(see how I kept my post on topic there?) and get them to you. I have discovered a few artists recently who were unknown to me previously that I think you might also enjoy.
 Cheers from your "Bosun in The Bush".


----------



## SearchOfSub

WANTED: Gustard H10 - Please PM if you are selling. Thanks.


----------



## daltonlanny

Just recently upgraded my Gustard H10 with a pair of Analog Devices AD797ANZ, and a pair of AD823ANZ op amps as recommended by stuartmc.
Wow! Big improvement over the stock op amps, and the amp is no slouch even with the stock op amps!
Transparent, clean, clear, dynamic, with excellent soundstage, and excellent detail resolution. Airy, extended highs, tight well defined bass.
Well worth the price to upgrade, and then some.
More open, extended on top, detailed, and cleaner than the stock chips.
Vocals more open, present, and clear.
Gives up nothing on the low end either, and bass actually sounds tighter and faster, and just as extended as stock.
Competes head to head with my slightly upgraded Beta 22 in most all areas now, and actually sounds even cleaner, and is now almost just as dynamic and transparent!
One of the biggest improvements I have encountered by upgrading parts inside a stereo component.
Highly recommended upgrade!


----------



## Jozurr

daltonlanny said:


> Just recently upgraded my Gustard H10 with a pair of Analog Devices AD797ANZ, and a pair of AD823ANZ op amps as recommended by stuartmc.
> Wow! Big improvement over the stock op amps, and the amp is no slouch even with the stock op amps!
> Transparent, clean, clear, dynamic, with excellent soundstage, and excellent detail resolution. Airy, extended highs, tight well defined bass.
> Well worth the price to upgrade, and then some.
> ...




The more extended treble areas worry me. I have the HE1K and I already feel there's enough treble. What Im looking for is something that adds weight to the lows only. Makes the bass more tighter and impactful. Any suggestions for that?


----------



## BassDigger

jozurr said:


> The more extended treble areas worry me. I have the HE1K and* I already feel there's enough treble*. What Im looking for is something that adds weight to the lows only. *Makes the bass more tighter and impactful. Any suggestions for that?*


 
  
 I'll be interested to read the response (of those who have upgraded the op-amps), but, if you're using the H10 to drive your he1k, IMO the H10 doesn't necessarily have recessed treble, as standard, just uneven; it produces excess treble at some high frequencies, but then rolls-off above those frequencies.
  
 It'd be nice if the replacement op-amps have an evening, rather than just an increasing, effect with the treble output.
  
 I think I recall reading some less than favourable impressions of the he1k's treble performance. But the standard H10 may actually be exaggerating any deficiencies, especially in the metallic percussion area. 
  
 Actually, from the improvement that you're requesting, I'd guess that maybe you need an amp with more power; this should add more impact, control and speed to the bass.


----------



## DDDamian

jozurr said:


> The more extended treble areas worry me. I have the HE1K and I already feel there's enough treble. What Im looking for is something that adds weight to the lows only. Makes the bass more tighter and impactful. Any suggestions for that?


 
 Yes, the LCD2.2 classic lol. More seriously - how you describe what you're looking for sounds like my current combo of chips: two OPA2604 and two AD797AN. The warmth I'm getting is good for brighter cans, and the bass is both present and impactful - almost too much for the LCD's but very good with the HD800/HE400 without excessive brightness or harshness in the highs.
  
 Sounds like I need to get some AD823ANZ's to try at some point, but I have too many amps now anyways lol.


----------



## jjkes

Permission to board ship Captain. I took possesion of a Gustard H10 a few weeks ago. I took your advice and made sure it was totaly burned in before making any judgements. I purchased the H10 to drive a pair of newly aquired ZMF X-Vibros. There seems to be enough power to drive the Vibros but the sound was a little muddy and diffused. Not enough clarity. So I decided to "swab" the opamps and ordered the AD797ANZ and AD823ANZ combo. What a difference. Everything improved across the board. Clarity, dynamics, soundstage, transparency, etc. 
 Well, my curiosity got the best of me and I ordered a pair of AD797BRZ's. I really wasn't expecting to hear much of a difference but boy was I wrong. There is much more clarity and detail. What were once subtle sounds are now more noticable and are brought forward and are no longer subtle. As a side effect of more detail SSS now sound like SSSSSSSSSSS.
 At this point I haven't decided if I like the more musical ANZ or the more analytical BRZ. I think a lot will depend on how bright or dark the rest of your system is.
 Maybe our brave Captain will order a pair of AD797BRZ so we can get his opinion to make sure we are steering this ship in the right direction.


----------



## daltonlanny

Now I am wondering if the Burson discrete op amps are worth the extra money over the Analog Devices AD797 and AD823?


----------



## stuartmc

jjkes said:


> Permission to board ship Captain. I took possesion of a Gustard H10 a few weeks ago. I took your advice and made sure it was totaly burned in before making any judgements. I purchased the H10 to drive a pair of newly aquired ZMF X-Vibros. There seems to be enough power to drive the Vibros but the sound was a little muddy and diffused. Not enough clarity. So I decided to "swab" the opamps and ordered the AD797ANZ and AD823ANZ combo. What a difference. Everything improved across the board. Clarity, dynamics, soundstage, transparency, etc.
> Well, my curiosity got the best of me and I ordered a pair of AD979BRZ's. I really wasn't expecting to hear much of a difference but boy was I wrong. There is much more clarity and detail. What were once subtle sounds are now more noticable and are brought forward and are no longer subtle. As a side effect of more detail SSS now sound like SSSSSSSSSSS.
> At this point I haven't decided if I like the more musical ANZ or the more analytical BRZ. I think a lot will depend on how bright or dark the rest of your system is.
> Maybe our brave Captain will order a pair of AD797BRZ so we can get his opinion to make sure we are steering this ship in the right direction.


 
 Ahoy 'mate....permission granted!   I love hearing  about the op-amp swabbing successes and particular pleased that others are hearing the same things I do with the 797/823 combo.  I have been intrigued by the BRZ tales I have read in other places, but I have been a bit skeptical about it improving the sound noticeably over the ANZ variant.  Perhaps these tales of the Kraken are  true. Did you locate a source for the BRZ pre-mounted  on a SOIC to DIP adapter?  If so, please give us a link to the source.   I would be more than happy to give it shakedown cruise if the pricing is reasonable. Release the KRAKEN!!


----------



## mandrake50

stuartmc said:


> Ahoy 'mate....permission granted!   I love hearing  about the op-amp swabbing successes and particular pleased that others are hearing the same things I do with the 797/823 combo.  I have been intrigued by the BRZ tales I have read in other places, but I have been a bit skeptical about it improving the sound noticeably over the ANZ variant.  Perhaps these tales of the Kraken are  true. Did you locate a source for the BRZ pre-mounted  on a SOIC to DIP adapter?  If so, please give us a link to the source.   I would be more than happy to give it shakedown cruise if the pricing is reasonable. Release the KRAKEN!!


 

 This seems pretty reasonable. *Link*
  
 I think I am going to order a pair. I have not yet installed the ANZ, With the current descriptions of the difference in the sound, I will just have to do that today.


----------



## jjkes

I'm still not sure if it is an improvement but I can tell you there is a difference. Per NATEMACT' s post I purchased a pair of pre-mounted AD797BRZ at cimarrontechnology.com . They were $41.00 for the pair.


----------



## mandrake50

jjkes said:


> I'm still not sure if it is an improvement but I can tell you there is a difference. Per NATEMACT' s post I purchased a pair of pre-mounted AD797BRZ at cimarrontechnology.com . They were $41.00 for the pair.


 

 Just ordered from the link I posted (Analog Metric). ~$27.00 with shipping included. Only downside is 10 to 14 days for delivery.


----------



## stuartmc

mandrake50 said:


> Just ordered from the link I posted (Analog Metric). ~$27.00 with shipping included. Only downside is 10 to 14 days for delivery.


 
 Good find! That's a great price.  I just wanted to see that they are reputable and not selling knockoff chips. The reviews and comments section would indicate that AM is legit. I'm not concerned about the shipping delay since I have other stuff coming in about that time too.  I have a Uptone Audio Regen coming and also an Audioquest Jittterbug.  I think I will pull the trigger on this one too.


----------



## stuartmc

Ok done! AD797BRZ's  are ordered.  We can all compare notes in a few weeks.  I am so happy with the sound of my current setup that I'm almost hesitant to mess with it, but hey, being Capt. Guinea Pig does have it's obligations, and this is definitely one of them.  If I can get a touch more clarity/resolution without increasing graininess and fatigue, then it will be worth it.  There have been many times in the past when I thought things couldn't possibly get any better and then, low and behold, it does!
  
 I'm quite surprised that this Hong Kong company can sell the 797BRZ mounted on an adapter for less than you get the bare chip from digikey or mouser.  They must have bought a boatload of these chips directly from the source at a substantial discount.


----------



## stuartmc

I know there has been some concern about Chinese fake chips recently, especially some ebay sellers.  This company seems to have been in business for quite a few years and has maintained a paypal account, so they couldn't be all that bad. I did pay for mine with paypal, so I have their buyer protection working for me.  Besides, $27 is not a lot to risk.


----------



## Lupino

Are special tools required for op-amp swaps?
 Thanks...


----------



## jjkes

One has to wonder with opamps being so cheap in China and the H10 sounding so good with AD797/823 combo, why don't they come stock with the AD797/823 already installed?


----------



## stuartmc

jjkes said:


> One has to wonder with opamps being so cheap in China and the H10 sounding so good with AD797/823 combo, why don't they come stock with the AD797/823 already installed?




The stock op-amps actually sound darn good and are a fraction of the price of the AD op-amps. To sell the H10 at such an affordable price, they had to find some reasonable ways to save. I'm guessing that there are just as many people who like the stock opa134/ne5532 sound as that produced by the 797/823 combo. It's a matter of taste and associated equipment.


----------



## mandrake50

jjkes said:


> One has to wonder with opamps being so cheap in China and the H10 sounding so good with AD797/823 combo, why don't they come stock with the AD797/823 already installed?


 

 I think that they probably use the opamps that they do because those achieve a sound signature that they designed for. As all of this is very personal, perhaps they don't agree that the AD chips do sound better. Just a guess, but, as it would be easy enough to build the H10 with alternate configurations, it does fit the situation.


----------



## stuartmc

mandrake50 said:


> I think that they probably use the opamps that they do because those achieve a sound signature that they designed for. As all of this is very personal, perhaps they don't agree that the AD chips do sound better. Just a guess, but, as it would be easy enough to build the H10 with alternate configurations, it does fit the situation.



Let's remember that they showed us the kindness of installing sockets to easily change out these op-amps. The Gustard gang is very in tune with the burgeoning Chinese DIY market, so this little benefit was clearly intentional. I suspect that the Chinese audiophiles on average do more tweaking to their gear than we westerners do.


----------



## mandrake50

That they did... and I am glad. I put the AD797ANZ chips in and was going to put the 823s in as well. I had bought a set of the LME49720NA on another members recommendation. Not paying attention, I grabbed those and installed them. I didn't realize it until everything was back together and I was putting things away. Darned if the 823 package was still there and sealed up. I just did it a few minutes ago... at least everything works. I took a quick listen and it sounds nice. I am going to let it run for awhile and hopefully a bit later try to do some more in depth listening. After a bit, over the next few days, I will put the 823s in and see what difference that might make.


----------



## Jozurr

dddamian said:


> Yes, the LCD2.2 classic lol. More seriously - how you describe what you're looking for sounds like my current combo of chips: two *OPA2604* and two *AD797AN*. The warmth I'm getting is good for brighter cans, and the bass is both present and impactful - almost too much for the LCD's but very good with the HD800/HE400 without excessive brightness or harshness in the highs.
> 
> Sounds like I need to get some AD823ANZ's to try at some point, but I have too many amps now anyways lol.


 
  
 I think I'm going to go with these. I'm choosing the OPA2604 over the AD823, which supposedly have an effect of making the sound transparent and opening up the treble more. Compared to the AD823, the OPA2604 have smoother highs. At least this is what I have gathered from the reading some 30 pages now. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. 

 Also, I'm not located in the US so is it safe to order from ebay? Are these these links fine and same things we are talking about:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-OP-AMP-IC-BURR-BROWN-BB-TI-DIP-8-OPA2604AP-OPA2604APG4-100-Genuine-and-New-/261046530381?hash=item3cc795f14d (Will be ordering 2 of these and not 5)
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-Audio-OP-AMP-IC-ANALOG-DEVICES-DIP-8-AD797AN-AD797ANZ-100-Genuine-and-New-/270977868969?hash=item3f178a24a9 (2 of these)
  
 Also,
  
 1) Is the BRZ worth the increase in price ($32 for BRZ on analog metric vs the $15 for ANZ as in link above)
 2) Why do you guys order for example the BRZ for $16 vs for example this one available for $7 (assuming it's not fake because the seller is well rated):
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Pieces-AD797BR-SOIC-to-DIP-Op-amp-replace-OPA627AU-/120757514941?hash=item1c1db572bd
  
  
 3) What is the difference between ANZ and AR?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Pieces-AD797AR-SOIC-to-DIP-Op-amp-replace-NE5534-/120757516362?hash=item1c1db5784a
  
 4) is the LT1357 better than the OPA2604 if I need tamed highs and tight, punchier bass? Cant find direct comparisons for this.
  
Thanks!


----------



## stuartmc

The opa2604 did very little for me. Very similar to the stock ne5532 in my opinion. A little to warm, friendly and veiled for my taste. When i switched it out for the 823, it was like, whoa!...that's what the Cap'n wants.


----------



## stuartmc

Vive la difference, Swabbies! There is No right, or ultimate op-amp. As many flavors as there are scurvy dogs aboard this good ship.


----------



## Noodlz

Hm~~ looking at the link from the analogmetric, there's also a *DUAL* AD797BRZ, can we use a pair of these for the H10? would it sound better? very curious =P
  
 Here's the item:
 http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2031
  
 I assume we'd need to get two of these?


----------



## Thenewguy007

Out of sheer chance, I saw something about an amp that cloned the $1,000+ Violectric V200  amp.
  
 I read that the V200 is one of the best amps to pair with the HD800, but I read a few posts here & a few people said the Gustard H10 doesn't pair well with the HD800.

 Different opinions or is the Gustard H10 absolutely on par with the $1,000+ amp?


----------



## Arnotts

thenewguy007 said:


> Out of sheer chance, I saw something about an amp that cloned the $1,000+ Violectric V200  amp.
> 
> I read that the V200 is one of the best amps to pair with the HD800, but I read a few posts here & a few people said the Gustard H10 doesn't pair well with the HD800.
> 
> Different opinions or is the Gustard H10 absolutely on par with the $1,000+ amp?


 
  
 Ears I trust suggest that the V200 and H10 are very similar, with the H10 offering significantly better value.
  
 The HD800's do not pair well with the H10 imo. It's very listenable, but it's a case of the H10 inhibiting the HD800's strengths, while not really making up for its weaknesses. Pairing the HD800's with the H10 left me thinking that the resulting sound was like a lesser Audeze headphone.


----------



## stuartmc

thenewguy007 said:


> Out of sheer chance, I saw something about an amp that cloned the $1,000+ Violectric V200  amp.
> 
> I read that the V200 is one of the best amps to pair with the HD800, but I read a few posts here & a few people said the Gustard H10 doesn't pair well with the HD800.
> 
> ...



On paper, and looking at the critical specifications, the two seem to be identical. There are some build similarities as well, but in my opinion, the Gustard design actually trumps the v200. You have two transformers and separate left, right channel power supplies and that dual mono configuration is carried all the way through with the Gustard. You also have a shortened signal path with the volume pot mounted at the rear of the board with a clever extension rod going to the front mounted volume knob. The Gustard cabinet affords greater real estate for the entire layout, so I think it is a more simple and elegant design without the clutter and jumper boards you see on the V200.

We have been on the subject of op-amps lately and it should be noted that both amps use socketed opa134 and ne5532 in stock configuration. That being said, I would think the satisfaction one gets with the H800 cans would be very much effected by the flavor of op-amps chosen.


----------



## Jozurr

jozurr said:


> I think I'm going to go with these. I'm choosing the OPA2604 over the AD823, which supposedly have an effect of making the sound transparent and opening up the treble more. Compared to the AD823, the OPA2604 have smoother highs. At least this is what I have gathered from the reading some 30 pages now. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Also, I'm not located in the US so is it safe to order from ebay? Are these these links fine and same things we are talking about:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Anyone?
  
 Why do you guys not buy from ebay considering they're reputable sellers and are much cheaper?


----------



## stuartmc

jozurr said:


> Anyone?
> 
> Why do you guys not buy from ebay considering they're reputable sellers and are much cheaper?




There has been some concern that sellers in China that have very low prices on the popular opamps are actually relabeling very cheap chips. Because electrically they function and do the same thing as the high end chip, most users will never know the difference and the seller will continue to have good feedback on eBay.


----------



## PWGuy

stuartmc said:


> Good find! That's a great price.  I just wanted to see that they are reputable and not selling knockoff chips. The reviews and comments section would indicate that AM is legit. I'm not concerned about the shipping delay since I have other stuff coming in about that time too.  I have a Uptone Audio Regen coming and also an Audioquest Jittterbug.  I think I will pull the trigger on this one too.


 
  
 Stuart, I'm listening to my brand new REGEN right now and it's UNREAL!  The audio improvements are significant and it hasn't even burned in - increased bass volume, tightness, overall presence and articulation.  I'm sitting here blown away.  I'm using a MODI 2 DAC and H10 amp with 797/134(?) op-amps.
  
 The REGEN was well worth the cost for me - my music has incredible energy now from HD600s no less! lol
  
 I'm excited to read your review when you receive the REGEN .


----------



## stuartmc

pwguy said:


> Stuart, I'm listening to my brand new REGEN right now and it's UNREAL!  The audio improvements are significant and it hasn't even burned in - increased bass volume, tightness, overall presence and articulation.  I'm sitting here blown away.  I'm using a MODI 2 DAC and H10 amp with 797/134(?) op-amps.
> 
> The REGEN was well worth the cost for me - my music has incredibly energy now from HD600s no less! lol
> 
> I'm excited to read your review when you receive the REGEN .


 
 Good to know!  I have been reading a lot of comments on the Regen over at Computeraudiophile.com. I got my order placed in time for the September deliveries.


----------



## DDDamian

stuartmc said:


> Good to know!  I have been reading a lot of comments on the Regen over at Computeraudiophile.com. I got my order placed in time for the September deliveries.


 
 Linky?


----------



## SearchOfSub

Has anyone compared this to Musical Fidelity X-CAN V3 with 6H23P-EB tubes? which one sound better? thanks.


----------



## Jozurr

mandrake50 said:


> This seems pretty reasonable. *[COLOR=0000FF]Link[/COLOR]*
> 
> I think I am going to order a pair. I have not yet installed the ANZ, With the current descriptions of the difference in the sound, I will just have to do that today.




These will replace the single opamp (opa134) or the dual opamp (ne5532)? what is the other set of chips you are using?


----------



## mandrake50

jozurr said:


> These will replace the single opamp (opa134) or the dual opamp (ne5532)? what is the other set of chips you are using?


 

 Same as the AD797 ANZ... they are single opamps. Though the same vendor offers two of them on one adapter to use in a dual application. I have been wondering how that would work to replace the ne5532 ??


----------



## Jozurr

mandrake50 said:


> Same as the AD797 ANZ... they are single opamps. Though the same vendor offers two of them on one adapter to use in a dual application. I have been wondering how that would work to replace the ne5532 ??


 
  
 I think for single opamps to replace the OPA134, the AD797ANZ seem to be the best option. Still can't decide what to order for the dual opamps which gives me a warm low end with hard hitting bass, forward mids and smooth treble. Have you tried the OPA627?


----------



## stuartmc

mandrake50 said:


> Same as the AD797 ANZ... they are single opamps. Though the same vendor offers two of them on one adapter to use in a dual application. I have been wondering how that would work to replace the ne5532 ??


 
 I was wondering that as well. I figure I will try the single BRZ variant from this vendor first and if it seems legit and sounds good, I may try the dual BRZ's for giggles.


----------



## stuartmc

jozurr said:


> I think for single opamps to replace the OPA134, the AD797ANZ seem to be the best option. Still can't decide what to order for the dual opamps which gives me a warm low end with hard hitting bass, forward mids and smooth treble. Have you tried the OPA627?


 
 The only one I can personally vouch for is the AD823. In my setup, it comes closest to what you are describing.


----------



## mandrake50

Has anyone done any measurements with any of these opamps? I was just reading one of the designer threads on the AD797. These guys say that it is picky about implementation. Specific  resistance capacitance and board layout is required for optimum performance.
 I just wonder how well they work when plugged into a board optimized for a different opamp. OTH, so far I like the sound, but it is difficult for me to really compare stock versus the new opamps as doing any sort of quick A/B tests is not possible. Obviously they work, but are they working and giving optimal results?
  
 I guess we play it by ear, but the engineer in me wonders what we are really doing to the system from the electronics perspective.
  
 Here is the thread:* LINK*
  
 A member, Filburt, comments:
 "I personally like the AD797, but my experience has been (and I'm told my knowledgeable engineers) that it is a somewhat difficult chip to use properly (for reference, I don't consider the AD8397 "difficult"). It cannot just be casually inserted into a circuit; you have to build around it (which means no using SOIC-to-DIP adaptors, especially Browndog!). The topology makes it very sensitive to a variety of environmental factors that you can be much more casual towards with many other chips. If it isn't used properly, you will get substantially rising harmonic distortion with frequency at the least, along with probably other distortion products."
  
 More than likely the H10 was not designed in this way, but rather to make the stock opamps work the best that they can. And of course to get the BRZ, we are using adapters. People say they sound different than the ANZ, could it be because they are performing worse?


----------



## Jozurr

stuartmc said:


> The only one I can personally vouch for is the AD823. In my setup, it comes closest to what you are describing.


 
  
 It's just the treble being further extended and visible part in the AD823 that puts me off.
  
 If I were to go for the OPA627 to replace the dual opamp NE5532, which one of these will I have to buy?
  
 http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1722
  
 http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1145
  
 http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1724
  
 I'm still trying to understand what the difference between a single and dual opamp is. Is it just the feet? or is two chips? and from the above, how do you choose which one works to replace a dual opamp like the NE5532?


----------



## mandrake50

OPA627BP Precision Hi-Speed OPAMP IC DIP8

Order Code:AM001145
  
http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1145
  
 You need DIP8. The legs where they plug into the socket are the same for dual or single DIP8 parts. The difference is internal.
 No reason to buy parts on adapters if the DIP8 part is available.


----------



## stuartmc

mandrake50 said:


> Has anyone done any measurements with any of these opamps? I was just reading one of the designer threads on the AD797. These guys say that it is picky about implementation. Specific  resistance capacitance and board layout is required for optimum performance.
> A member, Filburt, comments:
> "I personally like the AD797, but my experience has been (and I'm told my knowledgeable engineers) that it is a somewhat difficult chip to use properly (for reference, I don't consider the AD8397 "difficult"). It cannot just be casually inserted into a circuit; you have to build around it (which means no using SOIC-to-DIP adaptors, especially Browndog!). The topology makes it very sensitive to a variety of environmental factors that you can be much more casual towards with many other chips. If it isn't used properly, you will get substantially rising harmonic distortion with frequency at the least, along with probably other distortion products."
> 
> More than likely the H10 was not designed in this way, but rather to make the stock opamps work the best that they can. And of course to get the BRZ, we are using adapters. People say they sound different than the ANZ, could it be because they are performing worse?


 
  
 I don't think we have anything to worry about in the H10 application.  It is setup very similarly to the Violectric V200 and many have said, including Fried, the designer, that the opamp implementation is less critical than most.  The alleged persnickety character of the 797 is its stability in unity gain applications.  Most folks have found the 797 to be rock stable and have had zero issues when popping the AD797 into the V200. So far there have been no issues with using it in the H10.   The BRZ, besides being SOIC, has slightly different electrical parameters as compared to the ANZ. It is also a higher grade "B" batch, which means its parameters will not drift as much with changes in temperature and other environmental factors. The parameters are close enough that the BRZ can be substituted in any circuit where the ANZ is used.  I suspect that most people will hear no difference between the two, but at least on paper, the BRZ is the superior model.


----------



## mandrake50

stuartmc said:


> I don't think we have anything to worry about in the H10 application.  It is setup very similarly to the Violectric V200 and many have said, including Fried, the designer, that the opamp implementation is less critical than most.  The alleged persnickety character of the 797 is its stability in unity gain applications.  Most folks have found the 797 to be rock stable and have had zero issues when popping the AD797 into the V200. So far there have been no issues with using it in the H10.   The BRZ, besides being SOIC, has slightly different electrical parameters as compared to the ANZ. It is also a higher grade "B" batch, which means its parameters will not drift as much with changes in temperature and other environmental factors. The parameters are close enough that the BRZ can be substituted in any circuit where the ANZ is used.  I suspect that most people will hear no difference between the two, but at least on paper, the BRZ is the superior model.


 

 I hear you, but gross problems like instability are one thing. Whether the chip is performing optimally in the circuit is a different question.
 I looked at the spec sheet and agree with you. Around 90% of the specifications for the A and B parts are identical. From what I saw, the differences should not be significant for this application.


----------



## jjkes

mandrake50 said:


> Has anyone done any measurements with any of these opamps? I was just reading one of the designer threads on the AD797. These guys say that it is picky about implementation. Specific  resistance capacitance and board layout is required for optimum performance.
> I just wonder how well they work when plugged into a board optimized for a different opamp. OTH, so far I like the sound, but it is difficult for me to really compare stock versus the new opamps as doing any sort of quick A/B tests is not possible. Obviously they work, but are they working and giving optimal results?
> 
> I guess we play it by ear, but the engineer in me wonders what we are really doing to the system from the electronics perspective.
> ...


 
 There might be something to FILBURT's comment.
 Last weekend I replaced the AD797ANZ with a Browndog AD797BRZ. I initially could hear a distinct difference but realized after further listening that what I was hearing was distortion. The BRZ doesn't even sound close to the ANZ. The ANZ is far superior. It doesn't make sense to me. I thought maybe I received a faulty OPAMP. Couuld it be that the BRZ doesn't work in the H10 circuit?


----------



## genclaymore

The BRZ that I have I bought from audio_Jade or was it Audio_Cjn  I don't recall his exact name but i don't have any issues with it in my H10. I been using it for a couple of months now. Maybe you got a fake or a damaged one.
  
 After a while the two pairs of LT1357's that I have in a dual to single op-amp adapter improved and work very well for me with the AD797BRZ's for me for now,While I didn't like the dual channel version, the LT1358. i originally tried Two pairs of LT1363's and I didn't like them one bit. I haven't tried Two pairs of LT1122 yet.


----------



## jjkes

Most unlikely that they are fakes. Browndog sources them from Mouser or Digikey. Could be damaged or defective but how would I know?


----------



## Gibalok

Guys, since you are deep inside Gustard h10, can you prove my thoughts that this amp is designed mostly for high impedance headphones? 

Well it blows me away with He-560 but burn my brain with 25ohms TH900..


----------



## DDDamian

gibalok said:


> Guys, since you are deep inside Gustard h10, can you prove my thoughts that this amp is designed mostly for high impedance headphones?
> 
> Well it blows me away with He-560 but burn my brain with 25ohms TH900..


 
 Hi Gibalok - we've been chatting on the Bryston thread 
  
 I'm not sure the H-10 was designed for high-impedance cans (usually taken to mean 150ohms+ like the higher-end Sennheisers, some Beyers at 250-600ohms, etc).
  
 It is well-designed for phones requiring higher current or overall power. This tends to include planar phones like the Hifimans or Audeze lines, which are typically low-impedance (<100ohms) but need some current to drive them.
  
 When you say it "burns your brain" with the TH900 do you mean too powerful (i.e. little usable range on the output dial) or something else? The gain is adjustable via DIP switches on the back of the amp for different loads.


----------



## Gibalok

dddamian said:


> Hi Gibalok - we've been chatting on the Bryston thread
> 
> I'm not sure the H-10 was designed for high-impedance cans (usually taken to mean 150ohms+ like the higher-end Sennheisers, some Beyers at 250-600ohms, etc).
> 
> ...


 
  
 I mean the highs are very bright..


----------



## DDDamian

gibalok said:


> I mean the highs are very bright..


 
 I see. I have this combo for op-amps in right now: two OPA2604 and two AD797AN. I've found this combo quite warm yet still detailed. Too warm for the HD-650 yet perfect for the HD-800, so maybe a good match for your TH900's. For a while that was about the only way I could listen to the HD-800, and early on I still had to EQ the treble down a bit. Now that I've become more accustomed to them I don't have to EQ them with the H-10 and the combo above. Makes me that much more a believer in brain burn-in, as I had come from warmer headphones and the HD-800's nearly pierced my eardrums at first.
  
 If you're adverse to op-amp swaps (swabs here lol) then I'm thinking the TH900's may not be the right sound-signature for you. The above combo is the warmest I've ever heard from any amp, although my tube amps have lots of options that way. Just things to consider.


----------



## Gibalok

dddamian said:


> I see. I have this combo for op-amps in right now: two OPA2604 and two AD797AN. I've found this combo quite warm yet still detailed. Too warm for the HD-650 yet perfect for the HD-800, so maybe a good match for your TH900's. For a while that was about the only way I could listen to the HD-800, and early on I still had to EQ the treble down a bit. Now that I've become more accustomed to them I don't have to EQ them with the H-10 and the combo above. Makes me that much more a believer in brain burn-in, as I had come from warmer headphones and the HD-800's nearly pierced my eardrums at first.
> 
> If you're adverse to op-amp swaps (swabs here lol) then I'm thinking the TH900's may not be the right sound-signature for you. The above combo is the warmest I've ever heard from any amp, although my tube amps have lots of options that way. Just things to consider.


 
  
*DDDamian, thank you*
  
 But more likely i will swap H10 to BHA-1 and pick some tube one ^)


----------



## DDDamian

gibalok said:


> *DDDamian, thank you*
> 
> But more likely i will swap H10 to BHA-1 and pick some tube one ^)


 
 My pleasure Gibalok  Honestly, that would be a great move. The BHA-1 will be fine for your HE-560's (balanced). For your Fostex TH900's go for a warmer SET-tube design.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## tretneo

mandrake50 said:


> I may do that, but I find that when it takes minutes to make a change it becomes difficult for me to detect differences, unless it is a glaring difference.
> Once my hand heals, I will pop the Burson cards in and give it a listen.
> Thanks for the impressions!


 
  
 Have you had a chance to pop those Bursons in yet? I'm curious to hear some more impressions.


----------



## mandrake50

tretneo said:


> Have you had a chance to pop those Bursons in yet? I'm curious to hear some more impressions.


 

 Not yet. I may do that over next weekend.


----------



## tretneo

mandrake50 said:


> Not yet. I may do that over next weekend.


 
  
 Nice, let us know how it goes. I haven't done any other opamp rolling so I only have the stock and Bursons to go by. The heat difference once I installed the Bursons was pretty drastic so don't be alarmed and keep good airflow around the amp.


----------



## Jozurr

dddamian said:


> I see. I have this combo for op-amps in right now: two *OPA2604 and two AD797AN*. I've found this combo quite warm yet still detailed. Too warm for the HD-650 yet perfect for the HD-800, so maybe a good match for your TH900's. For a while that was about the only way I could listen to the HD-800, and early on I still had to EQ the treble down a bit. Now that I've become more accustomed to them I don't have to EQ them with the H-10 and the combo above. Makes me that much more a believer in brain burn-in, as I had come from warmer headphones and the HD-800's nearly pierced my eardrums at first.
> 
> If you're adverse to op-amp swaps (swabs here lol) then I'm thinking the TH900's may not be the right sound-signature for you. The above combo is the warmest I've ever heard from any amp, although my tube amps have lots of options that way. Just things to consider.


 
  
 You're using the AD797 instead of OPA134 and the OPA2604 instead of the NE5532 yes? Can you please post links as to which chips did you buy exactly? 
  
 Also, instead of OPA2604, have you tried other opamps?
  
 Im really interested in getting the warmest sound and hardest bass out of the H10 without sacrificing on much detail or clarity. However, reading reviews of the OPA2604, it seems like it isn't much different than the NE5532, and a better choice is maybe the OPA627.


----------



## DDDamian

jozurr said:


> You're using the AD797 instead of OPA134 and the OPA2604 instead of the NE5532 yes? Can you please post links as to which chips did you buy exactly?
> 
> Also, instead of OPA2604, have you tried other opamps?
> 
> Im really interested in getting the warmest sound and hardest bass out of the H10 without sacrificing on much detail or clarity. However, reading reviews of the OPA2604, it seems like it isn't much different than the NE5532, and a better choice is maybe the OPA627.


 
 Hi, that's correct but as to links I can't help. I bought the amp with those chips installed and the original stock chips on the side in some anti-static foam.
  
 I can only give you the overall impression of those, which by the sounds of it would suit your needs in terms of warmth, bass extension and detail. If I had a complaint with the pairing it is too warm for already-warm cans like the 650, but does wonders for brighter cans like the HD-800/HE-400 in my kit.
  
 If it was my only amp I'd be looking for a more even FR to balance it out. Instead I find it useful as-is to tame those brighter cans or for incredible depths with the LCD2.2. Now that I have the brighter Bryston BHA-1 I'm unlikely to mess with it. If it was my only amp or I had only warmer cans I'd be after a more neutral chipset for sure.


----------



## Jozurr

mandrake50 said:


> OPA627BP Precision Hi-Speed OPAMP IC DIP8
> 
> Order Code:AM001145
> 
> ...


 
  
 Apparently the OPA627 is also a single OP amp and you need something like this (link below) if you want to replace it with a dual opamp? or the one you linked will work fine to replace the NE5532?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1set-Dual-to-Mono-Op-AMP-OPA627BP-OPA627-replace-NE5532-/251268567461?hash=item3a80c611a5
  
 How do you know which opamp is single and which one is dual and if it replaces the OPA134 and NE5532 or not?


----------



## mandrake50

jozurr said:


> Apparently the OPA627 is also a single OP amp and you need something like this (link below) if you want to replace it with a dual opamp? or the one you linked will work fine to replace the NE5532?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1set-Dual-to-Mono-Op-AMP-OPA627BP-OPA627-replace-NE5532-/251268567461?hash=item3a80c611a5
> 
> How do you know which opamp is single and which one is dual and if it replaces the OPA134 and NE5532 or not?


 

 Why not take a look at the discussion over the last few pages. It is clearly stated that there are two dual opamps and two single opamps and which are which. Hint: Duals at the back near the output, singles on the side middle next to the heat sink). A quote from previous pages in this thread:
It comes stock with two *single *channel opa123 right next to the large heat sink. (_use only single channel parts in these sockets_)

At the outputs it comes stock with two *dual *channel NE5532..                              (_use only dual channel parts in these sockets)_
  
 Not sure how many times you want it stated.
  
I really do not think that the part you linked would be useful in the H10. I suggest that you simply buy the correct configuration (single or dual)  DIP8 parts.. (two each single and double) until you know what you are doing. No adapters, no double chips to mono... nothing fancy, just 4 DIP8 opamps... and go from there.
  
If you want to know more about opamps and more exotic combinations check out one of the good Opamps threads and ask there if they will be suitable replacements for the stock chips in the H10.
  
 Not sure how many times you want it stated. If buying an opamp, look at the data sheet and description to see if it is dual or single channel. Use the single for replacing the OPA123 and Dual to replace the NE5532.
 Or just buy some of the already discussed combinations with listed part numbers. Or learn something about Opamps and buy something that you think will work.
  
 One last thing, you do not have to use two individual chips to make a dual opamp. They make them with two amps (or channels) on one die. You could put a single and dual opamp right next to each other and, without looking at the part number, never be able to tell them apart. visually.
  
 EDIT: Looking at it some more, the linked item that you posted MAY (the description seems vague) be able to be used for two opamps which do not come in a dual package, to plug into a socket that would use a dual. BUT, the terminology is different than I normally see. For instance I have been thinking of getting one with two AD 797Bs on it to use in the rear dual channel opamp position. This is because the 797 is not offered in a dual channel single chip configuration.  The dual to mono description on ebay is all he gives... not how the chips are wired.
  
 Also, do visit the link DDDAmian posted below. I copied it a while back and pasted it into a Word document for future reference. Very good stuff... Thanks StuartMC !!


----------



## DDDamian

I do sometimes wish the OP's of these type of threads would do what many have: reserve a couple of posts after the original and update it from time to time with relevant details. The photos someone kindly posted a few pages back with circles around the op-amps in question is a great example of something that would be great on page 1.
  
 I guess it's hard to predict if a thread will become the de-facto go-to for that amp/dac/can but if anyone reading this decides to start a new impressions thread for any gear please do consider: will I update this over time? If so, the above really helps. It's always easier to refer someone to the first page than endlessly recycling info, directing a question to previous info, making someone wade through many pages or having to do the legwork yourself to find the specific post.
  
 Not a slag against anyone (OP, or the person above with legitimate questions) but I can sympathize with those trying to help having to do one of the above.
  
 Rant over, lol.
  
 Here's the excellent post by StuartMC on where the op-amps are etc: http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/3090#post_11863497


----------



## stuartmc

dddamian said:


> I do sometimes wish the OP's of these type of threads would do what many have: reserve a couple of posts after the original and update it from time to time with relevant details. The photos someone kindly posted a few pages back with circles around the op-amps in question is a great example of something that would be great on page 1.
> 
> I guess it's hard to predict if a thread will become the de-facto go-to for that amp/dac/can but if anyone reading this decides to start a new impressions thread for any gear please do consider: will I update this over time? If so, the above really helps. It's always easier to refer someone to the first page than endlessly recycling info, directing a question to previous info, making someone wade through many pages or having to do the legwork yourself to find the specific post.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think sometimes people forget, or newbs were never told, that there is a very effective search function on this site that lets you "Search this thread."  You put in your key words and it will pull up all the posts that have those key words.  You don't have to wade through 213 pages of this thread to get your answers.


----------



## DDDamian

stuartmc said:


> I think sometimes people forget, or newbs were never told, that there is a very effective search function on this site that lets you "Search this thread."  You put in your key words and it will pull up all the posts that have those key words.  You don't have to wade through 213 pages of this thread to get your answers.


 
 Just searched it for "big boobs" and came up with zilch, nada, squat.
  
 Oh, you mean relevant searches - my bad! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Edit: just searched again and got a hit! Outstanding!


----------



## stuartmc

dddamian said:


> Just searched it for "big boobs" and came up with zilch, nada, squat.
> 
> Oh, you mean relevant searches - my bad!
> 
> ...


 
 Try google with that search and the results will be huge...hahaha


----------



## DDDamian

stuartmc said:


> Try google with that search and the results will be huge...hahaha


 
 I suddenly have all these pop-ups.....oh my.....


----------



## Jozurr

mandrake50 said:


> Why not take a look at the discussion over the last few pages. It is clearly stated that there are two dual opamps and two single opamps and which are which. Hint: Duals at the back near the output, singles on the side middle next to the heat sink). A quote from previous pages in this thread:
> It comes stock with two *single *channel opa123 right next to the large heat sink. (_use only single channel parts in these sockets_)
> 
> At the outputs it comes stock with two *dual *channel NE5532..                              (_use only dual channel parts in these sockets)_
> ...


 
  
 I apologise if I did not post a clearer question. I have read from page 153 onwards where opamps rolling was first mentioned till the current page twice. I understand already that there are two single and two dual opamps and where they are located, thanks to detailed posts by stuart and others explaining them.
  
 I was a little confused about DIP8 and adapters, as some people seem to be buying them on adapters and others directly on DIP8, but understand that I want DIP8 in the end. I would definitely want to try the combos posted already, if I knew which specific item to buy exactly. A lot of information can be daunting and confusing for someone starting new.
  
 My main question was rather simpler, how do I know if an OP amp is single or dual opamp? (or rather is OPA627 single or dual opamp and can it replace the NE5532?) 
  
 I did try looking for that answer here, http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa627.pdf but couldn't find where it says that the OPA627 is single channel or dual channel and hence my confusion. You mention I should try to read the description, but descriptions as in the item linked above do not mention clearly if they are single or dual opamps. 
  
 I do not want it stated more than once and thank you for the patience to explain it to me. If I could learn how these things work, I'll only be adding in to the discussion with my experience of different chips as well.


----------



## DDDamian

^^^ it does tell you in a couple places in that datasheet:
  
 1) the schematic shows a VS+/- power rail to supply it, and an In+/- which is the differential signal it's amplifying. Only one of each so it's a single
 2) both block diagrams show a single horizontal triangle representing the amp, with the same pinouts as above. Again, only one amp shown.
  
 A dual will have two of those triangles in the block diagram. Each will have it's own separate In+/- if they are truly differential, although it's possible for them to share a common input but that's less common. It would be very common for the two to share VS+/- as there's only so many pins.


----------



## SearchOfSub

So what are you guys exactly talking about?


----------



## DDDamian

searchofsub said:


> So what are you guys exactly talking about?


 
  
 Big boobs (that's three hits in search!)


----------



## SearchOfSub

dddamian said:


> Big boobs (that's three hits in search!)





So I take it the answer is a "dual"-opamp?


----------



## lenroot77

The h10 is back up on massdrop if anyone is looking for one.


----------



## SearchOfSub

if anyone selling used Gustard H-10, please PM. Will buy.


----------



## mandrake50

jozurr said:


> My main question was rather simpler, how do I know if an OP amp is single or dual opamp? (or rather is OPA627 single or dual opamp and can it replace the NE5532?)
> 
> I did try looking for that answer here, http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa627.pdf but couldn't find where it says that the OPA627 is single channel or dual channel and hence my confusion. You mention I should try to read the description, but descriptions as in the item linked above do not mention clearly if they are single or dual opamps.
> 
> I do not want it stated more than once and thank you for the patience to explain it to me. If I could learn how these things work, I'll only be adding in to the discussion with my experience of different chips as well.


 
 Some opamps are offered in both single or dual configurations. If you know that you want a dual dip8 part, you should find a chart in the  data sheet that lists the specific part number for the dual, same as if you want a single opamap.
  
 The OPA627/637 are single opamps. Look at the data sheet and notice only one triangle (the electronics symbol for an opamp.
  
 Here is what to look for.
  
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/semiconductors/chpt-8/the-operational-amplifier/
  
 The following diagram shows the pin connections for single op-amps (741 included) when housed in an 8-pin DIP (*D*ual *I*nline *P*ackage) integrated circuit:




 Some models of op-amp come two to a package, including the popular models TL082 and 1458. These are called “dual” units, and are typically housed in an 8-pin DIP package as well, with the following pin connections:




  
 BTW, I seem to remember several people posting the entire part number for opamps they are using. In that case, just search for those. For instance the AD797ANZ is the entire number for a DIP8 package.


----------



## reiserFS

lenroot77 said:


> The h10 is back up on massdrop if anyone is looking for one.


 
 I'm really tempted to buy it at $299 (Probably comes down to 340-360 euros including shipping and taxes), but the mentioned QC issues have me left worrying.


----------



## BassDigger

reiserfs said:


> I'm really tempted to buy it at $299 (Probably comes down to 340-360 euros including shipping and taxes), but the mentioned QC issues have me left worrying.


 
  
 I'm not sure that I share your concern. I think the import tax has been a bigger problem for some (depending on location).
  
 But saying that, this is a Chinese company; there have been some reoccurring niggling concerns. But I recall nothing that wasn't quite easily put right.
 What quality issues are you dubious of?
  
 On another note: I think that I'm going to have to narrow my browser window; the "Recent Images In This Thread" display is quite distracting!


----------



## lenroot77

reiserfs said:


> I'm really tempted to buy it at $299 (Probably comes down to 340-360 euros including shipping and taxes), but the mentioned QC issues have me left worrying.




Apparently they shipped the incorrect power cable last time. That's kinda lousy, but that's not really that big of a deal as its a cheap fix if one didn't want to go thru the proper channels. It also could have just been a shipping error. 

With that said I'm in the drop and can't wait to hear this amp!


----------



## Noodlz

Just to chime in with the h10 cable issue. i ordered from china directly for mine and came across the same issue with the power, but its actually not a cable issue, there's a switch inside the unit that you can change from 220V or 110V (we need the 110V in the US). The cable actually doesnt matter as far as i know. Aside from that issue (which has nothing to do with their QC). the quality is just stellar.


----------



## reiserFS

bassdigger said:


> I'm not sure that I share your concern. I think the import tax has been a bigger problem for some (depending on location).
> 
> But saying that, this is a Chinese company; there have been some reoccurring niggling concerns. But I recall nothing that wasn't quite easily put right.
> What quality issues are you dubious of?
> ...


 
 I'm dubious of the volume pot issue, is this an easy fix?


----------



## BassDigger

reiserfs said:


> I'm dubious of the volume pot issue, is this a easy fix?


 
  
 I think that you're referring to the problem with the linkage, between knob and pot. As I understand it, it is easy to fix.
 But mine was fine.
 It'd be interesting to hear from someone who has actually had the problem.
  
 Regarding cables, yes the voltage is irrelevant. I think that some have had problems with connecting the cable into the IEC socket, on the back of the amp. The contacts, on the cable, could be either too loose or too tight. Again, an easy fix.
  
 But, the internal voltage setting has to be correct. If it was set at 110v, and plugged into 230 volts, there is the potential for damage. But not the other way around.
  
 I think the most serious issue is the design of the front panel; how the 'phone socket is located in a recess. This has caused some to be unable to use certain plugs, because the body of the plug is too baulky (fat) to fit into the recess.
 This will only affect those with the baulkiest of plugs; there's plenty of space far a 'normal' plug.
 Although, I think it may have been a contributing factor for a brain fade moment, that I had recently. I'm _still_ running mine in. I was at home and decided to leave my rig on and playing (in the background), for the day, to put a few more hours on it. This was in the morning. Later that evening I thought that I'd better do some listening, as it had been running all day. I put the 'phones on and the sound was very poor. My first thought was that the amp (or my dac) was overheating. So, I switched it off. Only then did I realise that I'd been running just one channel, all day long; the plug was incorrectly inserted, and I hadn't noticed, until then!!


----------



## Jozurr

mandrake50 said:


> Some opamps are offered in both single or dual configurations. If you know that you want a dual dip8 part, you should find a chart in the  data sheet that lists the specific part number for the dual, same as if you want a single opamap.
> 
> The OPA627/637 are single opamps. Look at the data sheet and notice only one triangle (the electronics symbol for an opamp.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you mandrake50. I have saved this post! I also understand how to read the datasheets better.  
  
 Also, that's exactly what I've done now. Went ahead and ordered 2 x AD797ANZ in DIP8. Will post impressions once they come in!
  
 Cheers


----------



## reiserFS

bassdigger said:


> I think that you're referring to the problem with the linkage, between knob and pot. As I understand it, it is easy to fix.
> But mine was fine.
> It'd be interesting to hear from someone who has actually had the problem.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, guess I'll pull the trigger on one then!


----------



## mandrake50

lenroot77 said:


> Apparently they shipped the incorrect power cable last time. That's kinda lousy, but that's not really that big of a deal as its a cheap fix if one didn't want to go thru the proper channels. It also could have just been a shipping error.
> 
> With that said I'm in the drop and can't wait to hear this amp!


 
 The last Massdrop batch was shipped with an incorrect cable. It had a euro (I think) plug on the wall end. It could not be plugged into a US wall socket. They shipped the proper cable and I had mine within a couple of weeks. It did not matter as I have numerous IEC to US plug cables around here. In any case, there was no possibility of damaging the amp. Other than that, everything else on the unit that I got was in perfect working condition.


----------



## genclaymore

That's why it pays to have a lot of power cables laying around from older psus or other computers and monitors I had over the years, as I also had gotten a H10 earlier this year that came with the same euro cable.


----------



## Bigdog33

Hi, everyone! I just ordered the H10, as well as a set of LCD2f's, so I guess it goes without saying how excited I am!  I guess this is kind of a meaningless post, but I just wanted to say that I'm now apart of the H10 club and will be excited to post my impressions!  
  
 Hopefully I don't have any issues with the amp that some have referenced, but knowing my luck, they probably shipped both the wrong power cable and forgot the volume knob entirely!
  
 I need to read back through everything to learn more about the different opamps to roll through, as that sounds really interesting/fun.  Is it very easy to change those out? Does any one know if there's a guide/instructions on how to accomplish it? I've always been too scared to tinker with things for fear of causing irreparable damage!


----------



## BassDigger

bigdog33 said:


> Hi, everyone! I just ordered* the H10, as well as a set of LCD2f's*, so I guess it goes without saying how excited I am!  I guess this is kind of a meaningless post, but I just wanted to say that* I'm now apart of the H10 club* and will be excited to *post my impressions!*
> ...
> I need to* read back through everything* to learn more about the different opamps to roll through, as that sounds really interesting/fun.  Is it very easy to change those out? Does any one know if there's a* guide/instructions on how to accomplish it?* I've always been too scared to tinker with things for fear of causing irreparable damage!


 





 Firstly, welcome to the club (Perhaps 'crew' might be a better description.) Bigdog (is there a story with that name?). 
  
 We will be sharing the same amp and 'phone combination. Most think that they're a good match. I wouldn't disagree, but I have some reservations, both with the amp and the 'phones. If you're going to read the whole thread (and why not; it's not _that_ long), (or you could just concentrate on the last 10 or 20 pages) then cool; you'll see what I'm talking about.
 Also, regarding your queries, perhaps you may find some answers if you follow that (your own) suggestion.
  
 I'll be interested to read your impressions. If we're going to be 'comparing notes', it'd be useful to know what source you'll be using to feed your H10?
 Additionally, I notice that you have a WA6. I, for one, would be interested to read about comparisons between H10 and WA6, when driving the LCD2f.
  
 Enjoy!


----------



## Jozurr

bassdigger said:


> Firstly, welcome to the club (Perhaps 'crew' might be a better description.) Bigdog (is there a story with that name?).
> 
> We will be sharing the same amp and 'phone combination. Most think that they're a good match. I wouldn't disagree, but I have some reservations, both with the amp and the 'phones. If you're going to read the whole thread (and why not; it's not _that_ long), (or you could just concentrate on the last 10 or 20 pages) then cool; you'll see what I'm talking about.
> Also, regarding your queries, perhaps you may find some answers if you follow that (your own) suggestion.
> ...




+1


----------



## Bigdog33

Thanks guys, I'll definitely provide a comparison.  I've never posted a review or my thoughts on how things sound, so this will be fun!
  
 I will have to say that from what I've gathered the WA6 does not provide enough current for planar magnetics such as the LCD2's, as it only puts out 550mW @60Ω.  So, I'll be going into the comparison slightly biased.
  
 ​As for my source, I'll be going from a Macbook pro to a schiit bifrost through the macbook's optical out.


----------



## BassDigger

bigdog33 said:


> Thanks guys, I'll definitely provide a comparison.  I've never posted a review or my thoughts on how things sound, so this will be fun!
> 
> *I will have to say that from what I've gathered the WA6 does not provide enough current for planar magnetics such as the LCD2's, as it only puts out 550mW @60Ω.  So, I'll be going into the comparison slightly biased.*
> 
> ​As for my source, I'll be going from a Macbook pro to a schiit bifrost through the macbook's optical out.


 
  
 Yeah, the WA6 *SE* version should be significantly better, for planar 'phones. Maybe you'll find some characteristics of a slight lack of power, with the standard WA6, when comparing to the H10. But it'll still be interesting to hear about the differences; the standard WA6 still has a reasonable power output, and tubes are a bit more 'flexible' in their power delivery; they don't hit hard distortion, in the way that transistors do.
 The main thing is to keep an open mind and just report what you think you hear.
  
 Going slightly OT: If I may suggest, perhaps your next 'upgrade' should be to use something to re-clock and tidy up your Mac's digital output signal. I'm not anti-optical connection, or anything; optical electrically isolates the equipment downstream; I'd probably use optical, if I used a computer for a transport. I've just come to appreciate the importance of a good quality digital signal in getting the best out of any DAC. _(If you want continue and discuss this further, may I suggest the main Gustard thread? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm the biggest critic of OT around here!)_
 Besides, I've found the LCD2f to be very good quality, in ultimate terms. And the H10 is no slouch (and may be a 'giant killer' with the right op-amps); maximising the quality of the input signal will surely have a worthwhile effect.


----------



## Bigdog33

You had me at "upgrade"!  Though my grad student budget is quite strained after my recent purchases...I do like the sound of giant killer!  Are you using the stock op-amps?


----------



## BassDigger

Those LCD's don't come cheap! But they're very well sorted, IMO. And the H10 is excellent, especially for the money (a fair bit cheaper than the 'phones).
 I really don't know how it compares to the other amps, based on the same circuit (with the brand name original costing about 3x as much!), but I wouldn't quite call it a giant killer, yet; not with the standard op-amps that I'm using, anyway.
 It might be a bit much to ask, from just swapping op-amps, to hope that it might become comparable to the best semi-affordable, semi-high-end amps. But some folk here have been very impressed with their 'swabbing'! I'll find out, for myself, one day.
  
 But anyway, I don't think that you'll be needing to upgrade your 'phones; not for a while yet.


----------



## kdejonge

Anyone using the amp with the he-560s? I am thinking about upgrading..


----------



## stuartmc

kdejonge said:


> Anyone using the amp with the he-560s? I am thinking about upgrading..



Only about 100 of us swabbies...an amazingly good pairing!


----------



## lenroot77

I cannot wait to get this amp... It's going to be a long month wait for massdrop to ship. I'm told my 400i and k7xx will pair up nicely as well.


----------



## BassDigger

I can't speak from experience; I own neither, and I sold my he400 before getting the H10. But, I understand that both 'phones need a bit of raw power, and a bit of raw power the H10 has. So, hopefully they should all be a good combo.


----------



## drgameboy

Anyone interested in the Gustard H10, please send me a PM. I just upgraded my amp and no longer need my H10. It is in perfect working condition and sounds awesome! send me a pm, lets make a deal.


----------



## drgameboy

kdejonge said:


> Anyone using the amp with the he-560s? I am thinking about upgrading..


 
  
 I use it with my HE500 and HD800. it is exceptional with the HE500, but i feel is a little lacking with HD800. Ultimately, i am upgrading to an Auralic Taurus MKII because of the HD800, if not, i could have kept my H10 forever.


----------



## DDDamian

drgameboy said:


> I use it with my HE500 and HD800. it is exceptional with the HE500, but i feel is a little lacking with HD800. Ultimately, i am upgrading to an Auralic Taurus MKII because of the HD800, if not, i could have kept my H10 forever.


 
  
 I'm keeping mine to keep the HD-800 & HE-400 in check as far as highs. I find both have some highs that can hit my ears hard. I prefer the HD-800 with the BH S.E.X. Can't wait to hear it on the BH Mainline. In the meantime the H-10 must stay 
  
 P.S. If you want Audeze bass to really rumble it's a great amp too.


----------



## lenroot77

Pm sent drgameboy


----------



## fritobugger

The H10 works well with my K7XX, HE-400i and HE-500.  Well matched for these cans.


----------



## Gibalok

kdejonge said:


> Anyone using the amp with the he-560s? I am thinking about upgrading..




I have that set. Exceptional with great punch, air and overall tonal balance. For the money asked for h10 it is a must have at least for HE560


----------



## mandrake50

Indeed, it is a very nice combination. Using the Pulse Infinity balanced out into the H10 with the 560 is the best I have heard them.


----------



## PWGuy

Which of the HiFiman can yields the best bass response from the H10? And what about MrSpeakers Mad Dog Pro or Alpha Primes - bass response with H10? Yes...closed back


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## olek

pwguy said:


> And what about MrSpeakers Mad Dog Pro or Alpha Primes - bass response with H10?


 
  
  
 Do not have any first-hand knowledge, but many moons (and pages) ago somebody mentioned that surprisingly, there was not much synergy between Mad Dogs and H10. Whatever it may mean.


----------



## Rhamnetin

The first post needs info on opamps, or maybe a separate thread is needed.  I see four that can be replaced, am I missing any?  Does the H10 use single channel opamps, dual channel, or both?  Are OPA134PAs used throughout the unit?
  
 Also those 16 2200uF capacitors don't seem to be the best quality.  A tad disappointing if true.  I suppose if they start to swell I can replace them with Nichicon KA series.  They look like 35v caps?
  
 - EDIT: So the two opamps in the back are NE5532s.  Thanks to this post.
  
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/rjm/1214-gustard-h10-headphone-amplifier.html
  
 Looks like opamp replacement isn't really necessary then.  Interesting that some people think the H10 is improved over the Violectric V200 which this is seemingly based on/inspired by.


----------



## genclaymore

It uses two dual channel op-amps for the rear where the connectors are and two single channel op-amps on the long side of the unit.


----------



## Twain250

genclaymore said:


> It uses two dual channel op-amps for the rear where the connectors are and two single channel op-amps on the long side of the unit.


 
  
 Or another way of putting it…
  
 The H10 uses two dual channel op-amps for the input stages (located at the rear where the connectors are), and two single channel op-amps on the long side of the unit for the headphone output stages.


----------



## olek

Got my pair of AD797ANZ opamps in the mail today. Of course, I just had to pop the cover and put them in same evening.
  
 I like what I hear so far.
  
 Recently I started to prefer more neutral signature of DACmini to warmth of H10. It just was more precise. Difference between 44.1 and 96kHz encodings was more apparent, while H10 was smearing bass notes a bit - making for more musical but less accurate presentation (BH Crack is even farther on that spectrum - bass smearing is even more pronounced, but so is the increased musicality as well).
  
 With 797's in, H10 moved quite a bit to the neutral side. Now its sound is more like DACmini CX. It is still a bit warmer, and it is definitely more musical (DACMini CX with 1 Ohm mod sounds is a bit analytical), but is closer now to neutral, and has more precision to it. Currently I am not hearing that familiar slight 'smearing'. And sound still maintains just hint of 'sweetness' to it. Lovely.
  
 Of course, I do not trust my own impressions yet, they are so very early, but I like where it is going so far. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Ah, and one thing that is a fact and nobody mentioned here yet is that with AD797 overall gain increased a bit. What used to be 12:20pm became 11:50am.
  
 Or, in other words, 300mV signal became 340mV. Not a major difference, but it is there.
  
 And Eva Cassidy's Tall Trees in Georgia does sound amazing with this setup indeed.


----------



## stuartmc

Glad to hear your grooving on the AD797's Olek. I've got another mind blowing recording to test them out with. The artist is Patty Griffin and the album is "Downtown Church." It was recorded in the old Presbyterian church in downtown Nashville with limited micing and minimal mixing. Think Cowboy Junkies Trinity sessions without the overblown reverb and better spotlighting of vocals and individual instruments. Every track is a winner. It's guaranteed to make you sit bolt upright several times, and say, "no way!...Did I just hear that!" Just a phenomenal high resolution recording of gorgeous music.


----------



## spaech

My op-amps arrived a couple days ago, I got a pair of AD797BRZs and AD823ANZs. The 797s seem to have improved the fidelity of the amp somewhat, although without an A/B comparison it's hard to tell. With the 797s in place, I swapped the 823s in and out a few times because they just didn't sound right. The amp lost some musicality, smoothness and vocal presence, overall sounded worse and was hard to listen to. So I'm currently running the 797BRZs with the stock NE5532s. Sounds great.
  
 One thing worth mentioning is that the BRZ version is a surface mount form factor IC, and I used a SOIC8 to DIP8 adapter. It needed some modifications to get it to fit (I had to saw some of the PCB off). The connection is poor and I needed to reset the position of the IC after moving the amp once or twice because it gets jostled out of place easily. So unless you're good at microscopic soldering, I wouldn't recommend the BRZ, just go with the ANZ version.
  
 [edit] It's possible the 823s I got were fakes, I have some more on order from a different vendor so it'll be interesting to compare.


----------



## genclaymore

Well mine BRZ was already solder to the adapter by someone else and they didn't use what you linked but a different soic to dip-8 adapter. The adapter they used was smaller but it didn't get in the way or any thing. They used this https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13655 when they did it and it was audio_cjn that I got my AD797BRZ from.


----------



## Rhamnetin

olek said:


> Got my pair of AD797ANZ opamps in the mail today. Of course, I just had to pop the cover and put them in same evening.
> 
> I like what I hear so far.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I like neutrality, thanks for the impressions.  I'll probably get a pair of AD797ANZ when I get the Gustard stack.  I'll probably try the TO-99 LME49710HA as well.
  
 - EDIT: Pretty sure I have a pair of LME49710HAs lying around.  Those will be going in first.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Would the H10 be able to drive HE6?


----------



## GioF71

stuartmc said:


> Just A/B them with the same high resolution source material and be sure to level match them. List your associated gear and we're good to go.


 
  
 I just did the requested test!
 Here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/495#post_11915718
  
 Cheers


----------



## olek

searchofsub said:


> Would the H10 be able to drive HE6?


 

 I think consensus here is that it will drive them, but not to the best of their ability - those headphones require even more ooomph to show their best (think speaker amp).
  
 BTW - I could be totally wrong on that, no first-hand experience with HE6, just seem to remember some past comments...


----------



## SearchOfSub

thanks for the reply - I just had one question that's off topic. I have a Matrix Mstage UPA-2 that I plan on using as a preamp out to Gustard H10. - (For the very reason people saying sepeeate preamp is good vs. not good, so I want to hear it for myself if a seperate preamp would actualy improve sound quality.) Anyway, it's a technical question - do I just connect mstage to h10 using rca OUT from mstage to rca IN on h10 and everything would work fine as they should correct? I'd be able dial volume only through mstage, and h10 would only work as a amp without volume control. No need to fiddle with any other hardware settings? thanks,


----------



## BassDigger

searchofsub said:


> Would the H10 be able to drive HE6?




From what I understand, the HE6 is as power hungry as headphones get; they need speaker amp power figures to work properly. 
So the H10, being quite powerful, will make them work and perhaps do better than many headphone amps. But ultimately you'd need more power (and quality) for the HE6. I've no doubt.


----------



## olek

searchofsub said:


> thanks for the reply - I just had one question that's off topic. I have a Matrix Mstage UPA-2 that I plan on using as a preamp out to Gustard H10. - (For the very reason people saying sepeeate preamp is good vs. not good, so I want to hear it for myself if a seperate preamp would actualy improve sound quality.) Anyway, it's a technical question - do I just connect mstage to h10 using rca OUT from mstage to rca IN on h10 and everything would work fine as they should correct? I'd be able dial volume only through mstage, and h10 would only work as a amp without volume control. No need to fiddle with any other hardware settings? thanks,


 
 Ummm... Not sure about details of Matrix preamp, but volume control on H10 will ALWAYS be active. I feed my H10 most of the time from DACmini with variable RCA out mod, and I can control volume using either volume knob of the 2 available. Seems like an extra hassle, and it is, but it actually allows for better volume matching for some ABAB listening tests. Just be careful to not blow up your ears, maybe get in the habit of turning one of those knobs all the way down when you switch off the equipment.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

pwguy said:


> Which of the HiFiman can yields the best bass response from the H10? And what about MrSpeakers Mad Dog Pro or Alpha Primes - bass response with H10? Yes...closed back
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




If you are talking pure bass response and from the H10, barring any other concerns such as balanced treble and mids, the original HE-400s are pretty hard to top, well above their price tier. I owned them for three weeks before painstakingly deciding to save for the HE-500, whose bass response is less visceral than that of the HE-400 but is more balanced all around. For even more neutrality with a brighter sig, higher resolution, and faster transients, save for the HE-560, which extends very low and clean, yet will not sound quite as thunderous in the bass as does the HE-400. The H10 should drive all admirably (I used the HE-500 with it to good effect), and dont forget to opamp roll. Not sure how the new HE-400s (with an "s") adds up to these, but it seems pretty well-received, especially for the price. I am doubting it reaches the bass-quality of the original 400 though.


----------



## BassDigger

searchofsub said:


> thanks for the reply - I just had one question that's off topic. I have a Matrix Mstage UPA-2 that I plan on using as a *preamp out to Gustard H10*. - (For the very reason people saying sepeeate preamp is good vs. not good, so I want to hear it for myself *if a seperate preamp would actualy improve sound quality*.) Anyway, it's a technical question - do I just connect mstage to h10 using rca OUT from mstage to rca IN on h10 and everything would work fine as they should correct?* I'd be able dial volume only through mstage, and h10 would only work as a amp without volume control.* No need to fiddle with any other hardware settings? thanks,


 
  
 As Olek said, the volume will always be active on the H10. The reason for this is that it's not possible to bypass the pre-amp section (containing the volume control) of the H10; it has no 'pre-in' inputs, like a dedicated power amp would have. This is quite normal.
 So, if you are using the volume control on your dac, as your main volume as if the dac is also the pre-amp, you'd normally set the volume control on the H10 at maximum, because it is acting as the power amp. But, of course, you should be very careful when doing this. It's a good habit to return volume controls to zero, whenever you're not listening, and especially when switching on, or switching anything.
  
 Why some people have reported an improvement (with what's often described as double amping) is still a mystery.
 One theory is that the pre-input section, of the H10, is a bit fussy and needs a good signal to work at its best. Perhaps to do with impedance matching. This is not so uncommon.
 But in an ideal world, double amping, or putting the signal through twice as much circuitry to do the same job, is a compromise that is only going to degrade the signal. The better solution would be a quality stand-alone dac, with a good line-level (no volume control) output.
  
 What I would suggest, if you are trying this experiment, is to try a variety of volume settings on the H10. I'd start at halfway, and then gradually turn it up, and your dac down. Be careful not to overdrive the inputs of the H10. This could happen if your dac output is too high, and the H10 volume setting too low. It'd sound like typical (too loud) distortion, even though the actual loudness may be quite low.


----------



## BassDigger

liu junyuan said:


> "... and dont forget to opamp roll...."


 
  






 Have you?


----------



## pippen99

bassdigger said:


> As Olek said, the volume will always be active on the H10. The reason for this is that it's not possible to bypass the pre-amp section (containing the volume control) of the H10; it has no 'pre-in' inputs, like a dedicated power amp would have. This is quite normal.
> So, if you are using the volume control on your dac, as your main volume as if the dac is also the pre-amp, you'd normally set the volume control on the H10 at maximum, because it is acting as the power amp. But, of course, you should be very careful when doing this. It's a good habit to return volume controls to zero, whenever you're not listening, and especially when switching on, or switching anything.
> 
> What I would suggest, if you are trying this experiment, is to try a variety of volume settings on the H10. I'd start at halfway, and then gradually turn it up, and your dac down. Be careful not to overdrive the inputs of the H10. This could happen if your dac output is too high, and the H10 volume setting too low. It'd sound like typical (too loud) distortion, even though the actual loudness may be quite low.


 
 I am using the volume control on my Auralic Vega since it has a remote and is more convenient since I am always adjusting volume depending on track selection.  I set the H10 on approximately 12:00 and generally depending on the recording the Vega is at 65-80 on a 100 scale.  If I set the H10 at full volume the Vega would probably be at about 20 most of the time.  I am hesitant to try this.  The thought of my headphones plugged into any amp at full blast is a little bit frightening.  Also would the output from the Vega being so low be a good situation?
  
 On the topic of a opamp rolling, I installed the 797/823 combo that Stuartmc and others found exciting.  At first listen I too found the clarity of the top end to be greatly enhanced.  Now that I've had them in for about 10 days I'm not so sure this is a good thing.  Yes there is a noticeable improvement in the top end,  but I'm beginning to feel that it has become a bit too clinical.  I'm feeling a bit of loss of soul or life that I had previously(warmth?).  Any suggestions for an opamp combo for this?


----------



## jjkes

As far as op amps are concerned, I went through the same process. I installed the 797/823 combo and initially liked the results but after about a week the sound became fatiguing so I put the stock op amps back in and haven't looked back. I believe people will get different results depending on their system.


----------



## BassDigger

pippen99 said:


> *I am using the volume control on my Auralic Vega since it has a remote and is more convenien*t since I am always adjusting volume depending on track selection.*  I set the H10 on approximately 12:00* and generally depending on the recording* the Vega is at 65-80 on a 100 scale*.  If I set the H10 at full volume the Vega would probably be at about 20 most of the time.  I am hesitant to try this.  The thought of my headphones plugged into any amp at full blast is a little bit frightening.  *Also would the output from the Vega being so low be a good situation?*
> 
> *On the topic of a opamp rolling, I installed the 797/823 combo* that Stuartmc and others found exciting.  *At first listen I too found the clarity of the top end to be greatly enhanced.  Now that I've had them in for about 10 days I'm not so sure this is a good thing*.  Yes there is a noticeable improvement in the top end,  but I'm beginning to feel that* it has become a bit too clinical*.  I'm feeling a bit of loss of soul or life that I had previously(warmth?).  Any suggestions for an opamp combo for this?


 
  
 It makes sense, if you're more than 'a reach' away from your H10. Also, I understand that the Vega is a dac/processor, and has no built-in amp section. You could probably use this as a pre-amp, and connect it directly to a power amp (for a speaker system). Or in the case of headphone use, set the headphone amp at a high volume, as you have.
  
 You should experiment with this; I don't think that you have to be too concerned about having the Vega set too high and over-driving the H10 input; your Vega outputs appear to be line level, rather than amplified. Just experiment, not forgetting that the H10 has gain settings (dip switches) also, and find what you think has the best sound.
 I would certainly suggest trying a bit less gain, with the Vega (volume), and a bit more with the H10. Just always remember that the H10 has the 'master' volume; as long as you turn that down, when switching anything, you can't do any damage.
  
 Op amps:
 Unfortunately, I'm not the best person to comment about these; I haven't tried any....yet.
 But, I try and take note of what others have written, and it's interesting to read your comments.
 The 797s have got pretty much universal praise. A few have recommended the 823, whilst one or two others, like yourself, have questioned them. Commenting, if I recall, that they can make the sound a little too analytical or lacking some of the H10's characteristic warmth, when combined with the 797. At least one person has experimented with returning the stock op-amp, and re-replacing the ad823. Another has tried an op-amp from another manufacturer.
 I'm not sure what the final verdict is, with either option. But hopefully, there'll be some more op-amp updates in the near future.
  
 Edit: Looks like somebody already has. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit: _Brain fade-_ I should have said that maybe you shouldn't be worried about *turning up the H10*. Remember that the H10 is playing the part of a power amp; they don't have a pre-section or a potentiometer (variable resistor-volume control), and are always on at 100%. Just get into the (good) habit of always returning the H10 volume to zero, and you shouldn't have any nasty surprises.
 Reducing the vega volume setting shouldn't be a problem; it appears to be a good quality unit; it probably has a relatively good output section, that'll work well with the H10's input.
 In the end, of course, it's your ears that decide which relative volume positions sound best. Just don't forget that there's a third element; the pre-gain dip switches (on the back of the H10).


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> Op amps:
> Unfortunately, I'm not the best person to comment about these; I haven't tried any....yet.
> But, I try and take note of what others have written, and it's interesting to read your comments.
> The 797s have got pretty much universal praise. A few have recommended the 823, whilst one or two others, like yourself, have questioned them. Commenting, if I recall, that they can make the sound a little too analytical or lacking some of the H10's characteristic warmth, when combined with the 797. At least one person has experimented with returning the stock op-amp, and re-replacing the ad823. Another has tried an op-amp from another manufacturer.
> ...


 
  
 Because folks are taking my lead on the 797/823 combo, I think a few more words on the subject are in order.  There are no universally "right" opamps for the H10. The variables of taste and associated equipment make for many, many "personal right" opamps.  That being said, let me expound a bit on why I like the 797/823  matchup.  My principal "thing" when it comes to headphone listening is how closely I can come to hearing  a real soundstage with all the ambient cues provided by the actual recording environment and imaging within that stage that is as palpably real as I can get it. Tonal balance and micro/macro dynamics are also important to me, but I don't seem to differentiate gear as well when I'm listening for these characteristics.  
  
 I have gone completely bonkers in my efforts to minimize emi/rfi and power related issues.   I am triple teaming the power conditioning with a Tice Power Block, Quantum Octave strip and a Quantum Symphony unit. I am using very effective (and yes, expensive) power cords throughout and the juncture of power cords to IEC sockets are covered with Yamamura Sleaves.  The insides of every component has been carefully treated with 3M AB5100S emi/rfi shielding material. Shakti stones are perched on top of USB-DDC and Dac and vibration isolation is done with black diamond cones on  Golden Sound DS squares on top of Townsend Seismic Sinks. In other words, I have gone about as far as I can go to eliminate the kinds of things that produce treble grain and edginess and generally muck up the subtle ambient cues in the soundstage.
  
 My preferred headphones are a highly modified pair of Hifi-man He-560's that are optimized for smooth treble and the largest possible soundstage. I use the ALO Audio Reference 16 headphone cable because of its amazing transparency and tonal balance.
  
 This is the environment in which I do my op-amp "swabbing."   My system can withstand the most extended and detailed treble I can throw at it. In fact, it seems to thrive on it.  The 797/823 combo brings it better than any of the others I tried.  
 To my ears, they just mop the floor with the stock op-amps.  Now, this is not to say that the stock opa134/5532 sound bad. We all know they sound wonderful and Gustard probably selected them because they sound that way in the vast majority of systems.  They just happen to be a little on the warm and smooth side of things. To my ears, the 797/823 combo has a much more neutral tonal presentation and its top end and detail give me a much more realistic listening experience.   Goosebumps come in the little details that ride just above the noise floor. When these details come through more clearly, its a goosebump-a-palooza.  I'm getting this quite regularly with the 797/823's
  
 So, in someone else's system could the 797/823 combo be a little too much? Could the  pendulum swing too far over to the etched, clinical electron microscope side of things? Sure it could... particularly if you have not addressed the treble gremlins that I have described above. Not to worry, the 823's will only set you back about $13 and you can try the opa2604's and a whole host of others in its place.


----------



## jjkes

I agree 100% with you Stuart. Different strokes for different folks and different systems. For me personally I never got along with power conditioners. They seem to drain all the dynamics out of the music. I Prefer to run a dedicated AC line if possible. I also prefer Soundquest Isolpads over spikes or cones. They seem to give a larger soundstage. But then again that's in my system. That's half the fun of this hobby. Fine tuning until you get a sound that you like not what some reviewer likes. You have to experiment and then just sit back and listen to the music.


----------



## olek

Agreed, tastes differ.
  
 For me, I was about to sell my H10, since its sound was not really doing it for me anymore, it was falling into "no man's land" between BH Crack and DACMini and I just was not using it, since it always felt to me like H10 was losing too much of musicality of Crack without gaining much precision of DACMini.
  
 Getting 797 changed that dramatically. Now I see H10 amp more as a (slightly) tweaked DACMini, with just a little warmth and musicality added to its precise, but dry sound.
  
 Ain't selling H10 just yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I will try 823 eventually, but if it takes sound too much in direction of 'dry', I am likely to revert that. But who knows, my taste have evolved/changed significantly in last year, it may/will change again. And, with my damaged hearing, harsher treble may not be noticeable if it is sufficiently high 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 For now, I admit that DACMini's presentation is most truthful and detailed, but somehow music is losing its appeal with it. BH Crack is most definitely not as precise and 'correct', but somehow it conveys emotions/texture so much better. And H10 is in between - but somehow before the mod it was taking on too much of shortcomings from both sides... and now it feels like it takes on more strength from both sides. I know, it is all wishy-washy, and subjective, but somehow I do not feel disappointed anymore switching from Crack to H10 - it is just a bit different kind of sound, but equally good to my ears.
  
 That is how I hear it. I am sure that there will be plenty of people with genuinely different experiences. After all, not only our ears are all different, but our hearing is conditioned differently. Reminds me of a story of one guy that was stuck in the basement of a radio company sorting through and cataloguing (vinyl) records of Gregorian Chant for couple weeks. Then he walked in the office of his colleague and gasped - 'what is that cacophony you are listening to'? I turned out to be J.S. Bach 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Its just that his sense of musical aesthetics got totally reset during couple weeks spent listening to monks chanting...


----------



## mmlogic

Just received an email from Bruson Audio says their new generation SS op-amp is coming, 30% smaller and less power hunger.
and Gustard H10 owners we'll be offered 20% introductory promotional discount.


----------



## GioF71

Hello @mmlogic, very interesting news.
 But there is still no info on their website, am I right?
  
 Thanks!
  


mmlogic said:


> Just received an email from Bruson Audio says their new generation SS op-amp is coming, 30% smaller and less power hunger.
> and Gustard H10 owners we'll be offered 20% introductory promotional discount.


----------



## tretneo

mmlogic said:


> Just received an email from Bruson Audio says their new generation SS op-amp is coming, 30% smaller and less power hunger.
> and Gustard H10 owners we'll be offered 20% introductory promotional discount.


 
  
 I received the email as well since I was one of those folks who took advantage of their H10 promotion a couple of months ago. One thing that caught my attention was regarding how "power hungry" the Gen 4 SS Op-Amps are. The wording got me wondering if it has somehow gotten back to Burson that the Gen 4 Op-Amps aren't a good fit for the H10 after all or if this is just trying to promote the advances in Gen 5. I'll quote the relevant portions below:
  


> As you know, the Gen 4 SS Op-Amp didn't really fit the Gustard units.  It was a little too big and it was a little too power hungry for the Gustard.
> 
> The Gen 5 is 30% smaller and 3 times less power hungry.  It fits into your Gustard units perfectly as since it is less power hungry, it reaches peak performance with less voltage and current draw.  The bottomline is that it sounds even better than our Gen 4.


 
  
 Either way, I do know the heat production has gone way up since installing the Gen 4 SS Op-Amps. I'm sure the new version will help with that. I haven't seen much discussion here about the pairing, still curious to see what others think.


----------



## genclaymore

mmlogic said:


> Just received an email from Bruson Audio says their new generation SS op-amp is coming, 30% smaller and less power hunger.
> and Gustard H10 owners we'll be offered 20% introductory promotional discount.


 
 Looks like they been playing way too much Tetris with the way they designed that. I hope it isn't huge other wise your gonna be playing it as you try to slide that into the gustard H10 trying to make it fit.


----------



## BassDigger

tretneo said:


> I received the email as well since I was one of those folks who took advantage of their H10 promotion a couple of months ago. One thing that caught my attention was regarding how "power hungry" the Gen 4 SS Op-Amps are. The wording got me wondering if it has somehow gotten back to Burson that the Gen 4 Op-Amps aren't a good fit for the H10 after all or if this is just trying to promote the advances in Gen 5. I'll quote the relevant portions below:
> 
> Either way, I do know the heat production has gone way up since installing the Gen 4 SS Op-Amps. I'm sure the new version will help with that. *I haven't seen much discussion here about the pairing, still curious to see what others think.*


 
  
 You're right. I don't recall so much input about the sound of the Bursons.
  
 Has anyone done any comparisons with integrated op-amps, such as the AD797?


----------



## Rhamnetin

bassdigger said:


> You're right. I don't recall so much input about the sound of the Bursons.
> 
> Has anyone done any comparisons with integrated op-amps, such as the AD797?


 
  
 I don't think anyone has.  I have seen some comments about the Burson opamps in the H10, and it's said to be very detailed and analytical.


----------



## tretneo

bassdigger said:


> You're right. I don't recall so much input about the sound of the Bursons.
> 
> Has anyone done any comparisons with integrated op-amps, such as the AD797?


 
  
 I have the Bursons and just ordered a pair of AD797s from digi-key (I hear they're reputable, no fakes... any conflicting experiences?) so I'd be happy to report my impressions once I give them a good listen.


----------



## stuartmc

jjkes said:


> I agree 100% with you Stuart. Different strokes for different folks and different systems. For me personally I never got along with power conditioners. They seem to drain all the dynamics out of the music. I Prefer to run a dedicated AC line if possible. I also prefer Soundquest Isolpads over spikes or cones. They seem to give a larger soundstage. But then again that's in my system. That's half the fun of this hobby. Fine tuning until you get a sound that you like not what some reviewer likes. You have to experiment and then just sit back and listen to the music.


 

I had much the same experience with power conditioners. I went through at least a half dozen over the years and quite a few did seem to compress dynamics-sort of the audio equivalent of sucking a bowling ball through a garden hose, lol. The Tice Power block is a welcome exception, particularly when you use its power amp circuit, which is one of four separately filtered circuits.The unit uses two separate power cords to your mains and the flow through the amp circuit is virtually unimpeded. The quantum octave strip and symphony enhancer which just plugs into any open outlet and teaches electrons how to tango, have no restriction or compression whatsoever.

I'm just getting virginal, delicate rosebud power to my headphone gear..ha ha.


----------



## stuartmc

Hey guys, the AB797BRZ variant pre-soldered on the adapter from Analog Metric just arrived.  http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2030   They looked like the real deal, so I popped them in and gave a quick listen..... and, I think we may have a winner here!  It sounds great even with my gear cold and no break-in time.  It seems to throw a slightly larger stage then the 797ANZ and its tonal balance is a little more full-bodied in the midrange.  I'll let things settle in and will report back


----------



## spaech

stuartmc said:


> I had much the same experience with power conditioners. I went through at least a half dozen over the years and quite a few did seem to compress dynamics-sort of the audio equivalent of sucking a bowling ball through a garden hose, lol. The Tice Power block is a welcome exception, particularly when you use its power amp circuit, which is one of four separately filtered circuits.The unit uses two separate power cords to your mains and the flow through the amp circuit is virtually unimpeded. The quantum octave strip and symphony enhancer which just plugs into any open outlet and teaches electrons how to tango, have no restriction or compression whatsoever.
> 
> I'm just getting virginal, delicate rosebud power to my headphone gear..ha ha.


 
 I find the psychosocial aspects of head-fi almost as intriguing as the actual listening to music part sometimes. How we decide which gear to invest in depends a lot on our judgement of someone's reputation, which in turn often depends on the judgement of others in the community.
  
 It's particularly interesting when someone with a solid reputation in the community says something completely nuts and nobody bats an eye. Really makes you question the value of using reputation as an indicator for, well, anything.
  
 One wonders how there can be a market for products like this. But I think it's more understandable given our suggestibility and the power of the placebo effect. I think in this market, someone with sociopathic tendencies and good social manipulation skills can make a killing. If a market exists, people will exploit it. So we end up with this niche of expensive products which usually claim some vague mechanism related to quantum mechanics. People buy it and experience a placebo effect generally proportional to the price and the hype surrounding it.
  
 Hifi enthusiasts who are "too open" to their own subjective interpretations and to the placebo effect, and who write exciting & colourful prose, rise to prominence. They are an important part of the hifi economy and people enjoy reading about their experiences. On the other hand, people who are skeptical and who take an analytical, empirical approach are useless for selling gear unless the gear has legitimate measurable benefits.
  
 Sorry for the rant, just wanted to get that off my chest. Be wary of trusting reputation, and don't trust anything whose marketing copy mentions "quantum" effects.


----------



## BassDigger

Are you implying that the Cap'n is a purveyor of snake oil? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Maybe you could *highlight* whichever part of the quote that you're referring to.


----------



## sunneebear

Hey I tried the large pebbles, they rock!


----------



## spaech

bassdigger said:


> Are you implying that the Cap'n is a purveyor of snake oil?


 
  
 I'm a little surprised by this response. Does he seem like someone who intentionally deceives people? I'd be surprised if that was the case, he seems like a nice, genuine guy.
  
 Regarding those who make & sell these products, it's pretty much impossible to tell which of them are writing their marketing copy with the intention to deceive and which of them are simply trying to explain something they don't understand themselves.
  


> Maybe you could *highlight* whichever part of the quote that you're referring to.


 
 The topic of power conditioning is pretty murky because there are obvious cases where bad power can affect downstream audio. However in most cases there is no problem with the power supply, or there are problems that a conditioner won't solve. So in most cases they end up being an expensive paperweight at best.
  
 The thing that stands out most is of course this sentence:
  
 "The quantum octave strip and symphony enhancer which just plugs into any open outlet and teaches electrons how to tango, have no restriction or compression whatsoever."
  
 To understand what he means you'd have to look into this product and read about it yourself. It's a device that plugs into any outlet and nothing plugs into it, and supposedly it improves sound quality by doing some magical quantum conditioning of the electrons in your house. Read about Bybee's signal purification devices. Read about the use of isolation feet / cones for amps. It's all absurd from a technical point of view.
  
 Don't trust my word on it, educate yourself.


----------



## BassDigger

Quote:




> Originally Posted by *spaech* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
  


bassdigger said:


> Are you implying that the Cap'n is a purveyor of snake oil?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


spaech said:


> *I'm a little surprised by this response*. Does he seem like someone who intentionally deceives people? I'd be surprised if that was the case, he seems like a nice, genuine guy.
> .......


 
  





 Erm. Maybe I'm guilty of what I'm kind of accusing you of; not being clear.
  
 You quoted someone, and then commented in a fashion that appears (that I mistook for) to criticise their recommendation.
 Perhaps I'm a bit thin skinned, but if someone quoted me, and then worded their comment as such, I'd be confused at the very least.
 My suggestion was for you to just highlight the part of Stuartmc's comment, to which you were referring; to avoid any possible confusion.
 We are all kinds of different personalities, from all around the globe, here. I think it's a good idea to try and use every method possible to elaborate your point.
  
 Actually, when I reread your comment, even though I didn't see the 'this' link, I guessed that your were just talking generally, rather than criticising something that the cap'n had written. But others may not guess this.
  


spaech said:


> .......
> 
> Regarding those who make & sell these products, *it's* *pretty much impossible to tell which of them are *writing their marketing copy *with the intention to deceive* and which of them are simply trying to explain something they don't understand themselves.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Maybe I'd forgotten that I'm a naive sheep, and I didn't pick up on the way that Stuartmc switched from (what appears to be) a genuine recommendation to sarcasm, in the way that you did. (Again, maybe it would have helped (me) if you'd done some *highlighting* of his words.) But no, it didn't make total sense to me; I just thought that they may be convoluted names for real products. (I'd forgotten about the existence the 'magical plug-in' device.) I was more interested in investigating the Tice.
  
 Stuartmc has occasionally written things that I question, but I believe that he believes what he is writing, and I keep an open mind that maybe he's right. This was not one of those occasions; in fact I'd previously thought that the majority of power conditioners were of some use. It was quite attention grabbing to read that actually only a few are, and the Tice is such. My next consideration was the price of the Tice; I guess that I kind of skimmed over the remainder of his comment.
  
 Naive, ignorant and often ill-informed, I am. But, you are preaching to the converted regarding understanding the nature of this business.
 As one gets older, the prospect of parting with cash makes for an increasingly skeptical consumer. That's why I'm here; I haven't spent significant money, or purchased any lemons, snake oil or magical anything, for some considerable time (if ever), and maybe with the help and advice of some of this community, I intend to keep it that way.
  
 "..educate yourself." I'm trying! Thank you for your encouragement!


----------



## fritobugger

I





spaech said:


> I find the psychosocial aspects of head-fi almost as intriguing as the actual listening to music part sometimes. How we decide which gear to invest in depends a lot on our judgement of someone's reputation, which in turn often depends on the judgement of others in the community.
> 
> It's particularly interesting when someone with a solid reputation in the community says something completely nuts and nobody bats an eye. Really makes you question the value of using reputation as an indicator for, well, anything.
> 
> ...


 

I read all of that in Rod Serling's voice.


----------



## spaech

bassdigger said:


> Maybe I'd forgotten that I'm a naive sheep, and I didn't pick up on the way that Stuartmc switched from (what appears to be) a genuine recommendation to sarcasm, in the way that you did. (Again, maybe it would have helped (me) if you'd done some *highlighting* of his words.) But no, it didn't make total sense to me; I just thought that they may be convoluted names for real products. (I'd forgotten about the existence the 'magical plug-in' device.) I was more interested in investigating the Tice.


 
 I apologise for not being clear. With the quoted text I'd thought it would be self-evident which parts I was referring to. I should have been explicit, especially since my comments could be perceived as a personal attack. Which they weren't -- they were intended as criticism and a general comment about the need for healthy distrust of authoritative opinion. I always mean my criticism to be constructive, but it's not always taken as such.
  


fritobugger said:


> I read all of that in Rod Serling's voice.


 
 Prepare to enter...the scary door.


----------



## BassDigger

spaech said:


> I apologise for not being clear. With the quoted text I'd thought it would be self-evident which parts I was referring to. I should have been explicit, especially since my comments could be perceived as a personal attack. Which they weren't -- they were intended as criticism and a general comment about the need for healthy distrust of authoritative opinion. I always mean my criticism to be constructive, but it's not always taken as such.


 
  
 No problem. If I'd followed my own advice, then it would have saved me having to explain.


----------



## stuartmc

spaech said:


> I find the psychosocial aspects of head-fi almost as intriguing as the actual listening to music part sometimes. How we decide which gear to invest in depends a lot on our judgement of someone's reputation, which in turn often depends on the judgement of others in the community.
> 
> It's particularly interesting when someone with a solid reputation in the community says something completely nuts and nobody bats an eye. Really makes you question the value of using reputation as an indicator for, well, anything.


 
  
 Did I take this as referring to me? I should think not.  I think you understood my sarcasm/cynicism  when I wrote that the Quantum Symphony "teaches electrons how to tango." I earlier referred to this stuff as "pixie dust."  The Tice Power Block is a serious power conditioner that has completely isolated banks and the one for power amps can handle a lot of juice.  It bears no resemblance to Brilliant Pebbles.
  

  
 The Quantum Octave is an eight receptacle  filtering power strip that provides surge and spike protection as well as filtering out line noise. I plugged it into the power amp bank on the Tice Power Block.  It too bears no resemblance to Brilliant Pebbles.

  
 The "pixie dust" and "electron tango"  is reserved for the Quantum Symphony unit that is the little box with the green light sitting on top of the Power Block.  When I don't know how the heck something works and the designer uses phrases like Quantum Resonance Technology to describe its function, I really have a hard time.   I was given two of these units years ago for review.  I wouldn't have paid cash for something so odd.  Several close friends in the high-end audio biz had tried them and told me privately that they really heard what the Symphony was doing.  I was skeptical and still am.  I "think" I hear a more relaxed, grain free sound when its plugged into the circuit, but its subtle and sometimes I think I'm fooling myself. I would probably fail a true blind test.  It certainly doesn't sound bad, so I figure, what the heck, keep it in.  
  
 So, my dear swabbies,  I am most certainly NOT a carnival barker peddling snake oil, lol.  I am, however, open minded and willing to trust my ears for what sounds good to me.  As I have frequently written, I am the unassailable world authority on what sounds good to me, in my listening room, with my associated gear.


----------



## PWGuy

stuart, looking forward to your ongoing review of the 797BRZs as compared to the 797ANZ


----------



## spaech

Stuart, nobody is going to say "I'm a sucker for snake oil," and I'm not trying to convince you to look at yourself that way, it would be futile. However, the fact that you keep that quantum symphony box plugged in says a lot. I'd be willing to bet that your review of the unit contained a lot of creative descriptions of how you thought it altered the sound of your gear, probably mentioning clarity and soundstage, and then a recommendation that it might not be for everyone but that you certainly got something out of it. Just a guess. If you have a link online I'd love to read it.
  
 All three of those products you mentioned are selling woo, to greater & lesser extents:
  
 The TICE power conditioner claims:
  


> *T*ighter, cleaner and more effortless bass
> *I*mproved imaging , clarity & harmonic accuracy
> *C*leaner amplifier clipping
> *E*ffortless fatique-free listening


 
  
 The Quantum Symphony:
  


> [...] is said to work on the sub-atomic level to "align" your electricity, somehow making it more conductive and more efficient.


 
  
 The Quantum Octave strip made by the same people is just a power strip with surge protection and basic filtering which retailed for $695 back in the day. Their site no longer exists but I wouldn't be surprised to see similar claims about quantum rubbish and benefits for audio reproduction.
  
 Again, I don't expect you to acknowledge this because you're so heavily invested. So my comments are less for you and more for others who might be influenced by what you write. 
  
 I truly doubt many hifi writers see themselves as a "carnival barker peddling snake oil" when they write glowing reviews of these expensive products that don't do anything. The problem I'm illustrating is not their intention to deceive, but that they are unwitting pawns in selling snake oil. As writers with a significant readership, they have influence and it's used to spread their own gullibility, leading their readers to waste their money by throwing it at shysters. Sure it's their money to throw away, but there's something to be said about journalistic integrity and ethics when you're recommending a product.
  
 It's sort of like televangelists: some of them genuinely believe what they're selling and some of them are total phonies. But regardless of their beliefs & motives, they all of them end up exploiting people.


----------



## stuartmc

My dear Mr.Spaech, I'm really trying to be nice and light hearted about this, but you seem to have an axe to grind and that's unfortunate. Geesh, did some reviewer force you to chug a tankard of snake oil at the point of a Rapier? It is almost approaching conduct unbecoming of a swabbie..and that may lead to the first keel hauling ever performed on the good ship Gustard. Ahrrrr!

Sorry 'mate...just can't help injecting a little jaunty humor in the Captain's style. I have always focused on the affordable over-achieving gear and I don't have a stomach for the completely insane stuff like those Brilliant Pebbles. So in reality, there isn't much that we disagree on. I was the associate editor and legal counsel to Positive Feedback magazine at the time and I did not publish anything about the Quantum products because they did not fit my reviewing paradigm. I did do a lengthy review of a host of Tice products, which included their power cords, interconnects and speaker cables. You can probably find some of this archived over at positive-feedback.com should you care to examine my take on it. If you would like to discuss this matter further, let's do it privately, so we don't muck up the Gustard H10 thread.


----------



## spaech

It's not so much having an axe to grind, more that I think there's stigma against speaking up against woo & snake oil, and an associated component of social ostracisation. I think it should be normal & even welcomed behaviour to bring the full force of critical skepticism to the table when discussing gear, and I'd much rather not have the threat of social shaming (or "keel-hauling" as you sort-of-but-not-really jokingly put it). If people are afraid to have their own or others' feelings hurt by criticism, it can lead to an environment where people feel like being critical is frowned upon. I think this is unhealthy.
  
 I think it's good to be critical of opinions and claims. Discussions will stagnate if criticism is suppressed and I hope you can try to see the benefit of it, despite being the subject of criticism yourself in this case. It's not personal, I would have made the same comments had you been anyone else.
  
 So I will continue to call bullsh** when I see it, and I hope others will do the same. Mostly I hope people do their own reading & research and come to informed conclusions that don't rely solely on trust and reputation.


----------



## stuartmc

pwguy said:


> stuart, looking forward to your ongoing review of the 797BRZs as compared to the 797ANZ


 
 Now this is a subject I'm kind of jazzed about.   I looked at the spec sheet of the BRZ's as compared to the ANZ's and yes, there are some differences.  I'm no electrical engineer so those differences really meant nothing to me and I had assumed that the differences would be inaudible in the H10.  I bought a set from Analog Metric in Hong Kong on a lark to see if the anecdotal accounts of the BRZ sounding better were true.  Well, shiver me timbers, it IS true, at least to these ears.
  
 I will assume that I got the real article from Analog Metric, because these BRZ's sound incredibly good.  I  tend to hear and differentiate soundstage and imaging characteristics more than anything else, and this is apparently right in the BRZ's wheelhouse.   There is a quite noticeable increase in the overal size of the stage -width and depth, and there is increased separation of all images. This was unmistakable for me.  I have some very familiar high res tracks that I use - mostly Chesky Binaural stuff -   and I was immediately struck by how much bigger and more 3D everything was.  The tonal balance is very similar to the ANZ's, but I would have to say that the BRZ's exhibit a more delicate and relaxed top end.  Just as much extension with a little less sibilance on the vocal parts that are often slightly annoying.   Since a direct A/B comparison wasn't possible, I am a little less solid on the top end comparison than I am on the soundstage and imaging.
  
 When I installed the BRZ's, I was a little concerned that the adapters they are fitted on have eight pin ends sticking up above the tiny BRZ chip (and I do mean "tiny"..they are less than half the size of the ANZ's). These looked like little emi/rfi antennas to me, so I carefully covered the chips and antennas with some 3M AB5100s. I also took the opportunity to treat the sockets with some Stabilant 22 to insure an optimal electrical contact.  I'm so pleasantly surprised by the BRZ's performance, that now I'm thinking about trying the dual 797BRZ's in place of the AD823.
  
 http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2031


----------



## stuartmc

spaech said:


> It's not so much having an axe to grind, more that I think there's stigma against speaking up against woo & snake oil, and an associated component of social ostracisation. I think it should be normal & even welcomed behaviour to bring the full force of critical skepticism to the table when discussing gear, and I'd much rather not have the threat of social shaming (or "keel-hauling" as you sort-of-but-not-really jokingly put it). If people are afraid to have their own or others' feelings hurt by criticism, it can lead to an environment where people feel like being critical is frowned upon. I think this is unhealthy.
> 
> I think it's good to be critical of opinions and claims. Discussions will stagnate if criticism is suppressed and I hope you can try to see the benefit of it, despite being the subject of criticism yourself in this case. It's not personal, I would have made the same comments had you been anyone else.
> 
> So I will continue to call bullsh** when I see it, and I hope others will do the same. Mostly I hope people do their own reading & research and come to informed conclusions that don't rely solely on trust and reputation.


 
 No worries 'Mate.  I enjoy a good debate and objective criticism. My apologies if my form of humor made you feel the way you have described - it was not my intent.  I never object to the subject matter of disagreements or debate, just the tone.  I really don't take myself or this hobby too seriously.


----------



## spaech

stuartmc said:


> No worries 'Mate.  I enjoy a good debate and objective criticism. My apologies if my form of humor made you feel the way you have described - it was not my intent.  I never object to the subject matter of disagreements or debate, just the tone.  I really don't take myself or this hobby too seriously.


 
 All good. One thing I would be super curious about would be to see you do a blind test of a lot of your gear: power cables, vibration pads, emf shielding, power conditioning, and of course the quantum stuff. I'm not sure if that interests you, but it'd be cool to see if any of that gear translates to noticeable differences in audio reproduction under controlled conditions. I guess that'd be a topic for another thread though.


----------



## BassDigger

@stuartmc
I really was (half) joking, with my original comment! Although I admit totally being foxed by your switch to to sarcasm. Until I reread.
But it seems that I may have been on to something.
Anyway, some OT is fine, for me (as long as it's not dacs ). And I totally agree with Spaech's general point. I just think that maybe it's a topic for another thread, if we're going to discuss your historical conduct. 

I'm verrrrry interested in these BRZs! Your description suggests that they may be a little easier on the ear than the ANZ. So, what might they do in place of the 823s?

Incidentally, with the upgraded op-amps, how would you rate the H10, in ultimate terms? What kind of 'off the shelf', brand name amp would it be best compared to?


----------



## olek

In the interest of science I would like to mention that captain's experiment was not entirely clean. At the same time as replacing ANZ with BRZ, some 3M AB5100s was added and contacts were treated with Stabilant 22. What if sonic effects were caused more by the side treatment than a swap itself? Chances of that are pretty low, but they are not zero.
  
 Also, putting aside blind tests, in my current opinion AB tests are a bit too subjective, and ABAB tests are much more reliable. But who would want to open their amp multiple times for one test? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 For now I am very happy with ANZs. H10 reigns again as a preferred amp in my stable. But it is good to know that when upgradeitis itch kicks in, there are simple 'topical' treatments available.


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> In the interest of science I would like to mention that captain's experiment was not entirely clean. At the same time as replacing ANZ with BRZ, some 3M AB5100s was added and contacts were treated with Stabilant 22. What if sonic effects were caused more by the side treatment than a swap itself? Chances of that are pretty low, but they are not zero.
> 
> Also, putting aside blind tests, in my current opinion AB tests are a bit too subjective, and ABAB tests are much more reliable. But who would want to open their amp multiple times for one test? :tongue_smile:
> 
> For now I am very happy with ANZs. H10 reigns again as a preferred amp in my stable. But it is good to know that when upgradeitis itch kicks in, there are simple 'topical' treatments available.




Good point. It wasn't a "completely" clean AB. It was close though. I had AB5100s on top of of the ANZ's too. I thought I should mention it in the BRZ application because of the funky pins sticking up on the adaptor. The adapter itself is a variable that may effect how clean the comparison is. Stabilant 22 (which was the active ingredient in "Tweak" years back) has never significantly effected soundstage and imaging in my experience with many applications. But hey, you never know.


----------



## mandrake50

stuartmc said:


> Good point. It wasn't a "completely" clean AB. It was close though. I had AB5100s on top of of the ANZ's too. I thought I should mention it in the BRZ application because of the funky pins sticking up on the adaptor. The adapter itself is a variable that may effect how clean the comparison is. Stabilant 22 (which was the active ingredient in "Tweak" years back) has never significantly effected soundstage and imaging in my experience with many applications. But hey, you never know.


 

 Hey Cap, where did you get the EMI Absorber AB5100 in a quantity and price that is somewhat reasonable. Looking at the top hits in a search, there is a minimum quantity order from suppliers that is in excess of $1300. I wouldn't mind playing with some, because I do like to tinker. At $1300+ I think I will have to pass.
  
 BTW I have a set of the 797BRZ from the same place. I have not yet installed them. Your description is some motivation to get them plugged in and tested.
 Thanks!


----------



## stuartmc

mandrake50 said:


> Hey Cap, where did you get the EMI Absorber AB5100 in a quantity and price that is somewhat reasonable. Looking at the top hits in a search, there is a minimum quantity order from suppliers that is in excess of $1300. I wouldn't mind playing with some, because I do like to tinker. At $1300+ I think I will have to pass.
> 
> BTW I have a set of the 797BRZ from the same place. I have not yet installed them. Your description is some motivation to get them plugged in and tested.
> Thanks!




I was looking for the other guy who got them from Analog Metric...and here you are!...cool. By all means, get them installed and give me a sanity check, lol.

There was a guy selling individual 8x10 sheets of 5100S on eBay and he even joined us here and bought the H10. I can't remember his name now. He is no longer selling them and that's a real shame because his price was fantastic. I bought three sheets from him and was able to completely shield the transformers in the H10, amongst other things. I think it is effective enough to give you nearly the equivalent of an outboard power supply.


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> @stuartmc
> I really was (half) joking, with my original comment! Although I admit totally being foxed by your switch to to sarcasm. Until I reread.
> But it seems that I may have been on to something.
> Anyway, some OT is fine, for me (as long as it's not dacs
> ...


 
 My "historical conduct" is boring as heck, and not worthy of another thread.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   The only part that is germane to the ongoing Gustard discussions, is the fact that I completely left the field of high-fi journalism and did not write a thing or participate on any forums for nearly 15 years.  The primary reason for the hiatus was my displeasure with the haughty, obsessive compulsive nature of many people that I dealt with coupled with runaway pricing that made it very difficult for average people to truly enjoy the hobby.  My return has been in baby steps and started right here on head-fi with the people on this very thread.  Decent headphone audio has been way more affordable ( I started with a Fio X1 and Havi B3's!) and the people have been gracious and just plain fun. The emphasis for me is on the FUN part.  I'm having my own _personal_ journey of discovery and it's all about my _personal_ enjoyment.  Sharing that journey with others of like mind seems to add to my pleasure. I don't wish to shape opinions, manipulate my status, or get into lengthy debates that kill my fun buzz.  The whole silly Capt. Guinea Pig of the SS Gustard thing has evolved naturally and is hopefully self-deprecating enough to keep me, and those I interact with, from becoming dreaded Hi-fi Pharisees. 
  


bassdigger said:


> I'm verrrrry interested in these BRZs! Your description suggests that they may be a little easier on the ear than the ANZ. So, what might they do in place of the 823s?
> 
> Incidentally, with the upgraded op-amps, how would you rate the H10, in ultimate terms? What kind of 'off the shelf', brand name amp would it be best compared to?


 
  
 My comments above should make it easier for me to answer this.  I really don't know what they will do, or sound like in place of the 823s. If in dual mode the 797BRZ's  sound like they do in single mode, I think there is a good chance that they would sound better to me than the 823s. Since I'm such a soundstage/imaging whore, perhaps I can go even further in the same direction the single BRZ's have taken me.
  
 Since all my past experience with amplifiers has been in my downstairs listening room with full size loudspeakers, I can't give you any good examples of headphone amps that compare to the sound I'm getting now with the H10.  In the headphone category, I have only listened to the amp section of the Aune S16, the Ifi Ican and a small portable SMSL amp.  None of these compare at all with the H10.  I have auditioned and reviewed non-headphone amps of all powers and topologies and know the kind of sound I like, but it wouldn't be very helpful to say for instance that the H10 reminds me of the Blue Circle BC2's ..ha ha, and despite the years and the death of many brain cells, it actually does.  That was a hybrid 6SN7tube/bipolar transistor monoblock that I had in the summer of 1996.  It hit all my hot buttons and I guess the reason I'm reminded of it is because in the headphone arena, the H10, as currently configured, does too. http://www.bluecircle.com/page135.html  ....This was the only place I could find my old review of the BC-2 and unfortunately, it has no paragraph breaks.  It looks like one huge run-on sentence.


----------



## olek

stuartmc said:


> I thought I should mention it in the BRZ application because of the funky pins sticking up on the adaptor.


 
  
  
 Thank you for clarifying!
  
 BTW - for those that would like H10's sound in a more portable setup, I finally had good luck with Apogee Groove. DAC is performing almost on the level of DACMini, and based on my (unreliable) memory a step above original Bifrost, which is minor miracle in itself. Amp section creates H10-like sound with IEMs - warm and musical. With 300 Ohm HD600 Groove is starting to obviously lose its stance and grain is finding its way into sound, but still, not bad at all for 'whistle'-sized device. With 600 Ohm DT880 H10 gets definite and clear advantage, but hey, can one really demand from 5V 500ma amp to drive THAT very well? Still drives them loud, just not as clear as stationary setups. Advantage is small size and usb-only power. While it is not advertised to support this particular usage, I was able to plug Groove into my Samsung S5, and with phone in one pocket, DAC in another pocket, was able to walk around my neighbourhood enjoying top-notch sound. Who cares that I looked super-geeky with usb cable in my pant's belt loops? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Oh, and almost forgot to mention - both H10 and Groove are pairing exceptionally well with Hifiman RE-600 IEMs, with H10 having an edge of course. Very undervalued phones in my experience - they sound very sad when driven by lesser gear (cough, cough, smartphones), but they wake up and stand their ground when driven by something more capable. Extremely revealing as well - I found that simply extending their (short-ish) cable with 3.5mm extension altered sound very significantly (belkin cable sounded like crap), and forced me to get better extension cable. Unfortunately, majority of people reviewing IEMs only test them with smartphones, and that gives phones like those a bad rep.
  
 There you go, whole bunch of OT, but all of it somehow tied in with H10


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> I was able to plug Groove into my Samsung S5, and with phone in one pocket, DAC in another pocket, was able to walk around my neighbourhood enjoying top-notch sound. Who cares that I looked super-geeky with usb cable in my pant's belt loops?


 
  
 Outstanding. I'm getting quite the mental image right now.... but of course it didn't really happen unless there's a picture. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   Take one for the swabbies...c'mon, I know you want to.


----------



## tretneo

Hey Cap'n, I wanted to get your honest opinion of discrete Op Amps. I haven't looked to hard but don't recall you discussing them much if at all.
  
 I bought the Burson 4th Gen SS set a month or so ago and have been using those daily since then. Last week I ordered the AD797/AD823 (ANZ) combo via Digi-Key and have about 50 hours on them so far, I'm looking forward to giving them an in-depth listen. Do you have any advice on what I should listen for / focus on to pinpoint differences in these setups?


----------



## MLegend

Hello everyone! I just want to thank you all for discussing,in great detail, and reviewing the Gustard H10.You persuaded me fairly quickly haha. I am now an owner of the amp thanks to pollychen0306 who was extremely helpful and had no issues answering questions about the amp or shipping. Definitely recommend ordering from them.
  
 I am using PM3s and a  Mad dog 3.2 at the moment until I can get a pair of paradox slants. If anyone wants to know how those two pair just let me know and i'll do my best to describe how they sound, though the H10 has only been burning in for about 20hrs so the amp might not be fully showing itself considering how many of you guys have said it really does need a lot of burn in.
  
 I do have one question though for anyone who wants to answer. I am using an ODAC RevB with my H10 and it sounds.......well it works haha. It sounds pretty good, however, I am coming straight from my onboard sound on an Asus Z97-A so I would assume any plain old dac would be better. 
  
 I was curious to know if anyone has this same paring or has had it before and what they think of it. Is there anything that would be worth spending money on to give the H10 better performance? I'm not looking for a new dac right now since I literally JUST got both amp and dac in like 3 days ago so I don't need to buy anything for awhile. Any thoughts or recommendations are appreciated.
  
 Also....is there anything about impedance matching or pairing I should know about when using unbalanced. It says ODAC is 100k output and H10 input is 68k. Are there specific loads I should be matching for the best performance or does that not really matter. Thank you again for the discussion.


----------



## stuartmc

tretneo said:


> Hey Cap'n, I wanted to get your honest opinion of discrete Op Amps. I haven't looked to hard but don't recall you discussing them much if at all.
> 
> I bought the Burson 4th Gen SS set a month or so ago and have been using those daily since then. Last week I ordered the AD797/AD823 (ANZ) combo via Digi-Key and have about 50 hours on them so far, I'm looking forward to giving them an in-depth listen. Do you have any advice on what I should listen for / focus on to pinpoint differences in these setups?



I haven't tried any discreet op-amps, so I'm not qualified to give a personal opinion. I suspect that they would provide yet another "flavor" that some might prefer. The EE's out there will say that there is really no reason at all that discreet would be better. In fact, I've read some opinions that the compact design of op-amps has some advantages. There are many things I hear that don't fit the pure objectivist paradigm, so I keep an open mind (and ears) on this stuff. I would love to try the Bursons.

Your second question is really great and I want to share my thoughts on it in much more depth than I might ordinarily. Right now I'm sipping a fine whiskey and watching football with friends whilst attempting to write coherent sentences on my cell phone.. I think maybe I should wait till I get home.


----------



## tretneo

stuartmc said:


> I haven't tried any discreet op-amps, so I'm not qualified to give a personal opinion. I suspect that they would provide yet another "flavor" that some might prefer. The EE's out there will say that there is really no reason at all that discreet would be better. In fact, I've read some opinions that the compact design of op-amps has some advantages. There are many things I hear that don't fit the pure objectivist paradigm, so I keep an open mind (and ears) on this stuff. I would love to try the Bursons.
> 
> Your second question is really great and I want to share my thoughts on it in much more depth than I might ordinarily. Right now I'm sipping a fine whiskey and watching football with friends whilst attempting to write coherent sentences on my cell phone.. I think maybe I should wait till I get home.


 
  
 Understood, thank you for relaying what you've read on the matter. PM me, perhaps I can loan you my Burson set while I'm giving the 797/823 combo some extended ear-time. This way you can give them a try and provide the community here with your first-hand impressions 
  
 Ah, sounds like a lovely way to spend a Sunday!


----------



## PWGuy

mlegend said:


> I am using PM3s and a  Mad dog 3.2 at the moment until I can get a pair of paradox slants. If anyone wants to know how those two pair just let me know and i'll do my best to describe how they sound, though the H10 has only been burning in for about 20hrs so the amp might not be fully showing itself considering how many of you guys have said it really does need a lot of burn in.




How do you like the PM3s with the H10? Bass response, soundstage, etc?

I recently bought a used pair of Alpha Primes and it seems the H10 really pairs well with them from SQ and SPL perspective.


----------



## stuartmc

tretneo said:


> Do you have any advice on what I should listen for / focus on to pinpoint differences in these setups?


 
  
 We all have unique personalities and gifts and I believe that holds true with our audio perceptions.  There will be audiophiles that are more sensitive to bass lines, some very sensitive to the high frequencies represented by strings and cymbals and still others, like me, who are most effected by spacial cues.  Absent some real physiological ear/brain issues, I don't hold to the belief that there are people who are "golden ears" and others who are "tin ears," or in the case of my friend Bill Brassington, "brass ears."  I think most everyone can attain the same level of listening acuity when they practice and "learn" the skill.   Most often we use visual expressions to describe are audio soundscape.  I think that is natural as sight is a very dominant sense for most of us.  Reviewers often paint a word picture of what they hear as the spacial cues in the recording.  We hear the reverberations off the walls and get a sense of the width and depth of the recording venue. We talk about images as being round pulsating cylinders of sound and sense the space around and between those images.  When I listened to loudspeakers, I picked this stuff up much better if I had my eyes open and actually imagined seeing precisely what I was hearing.  When I recently got into headphone listening, I had to re-learn much of my skills, it was a very different perspective- trying to conjure up a real soundscape from what was now between my ears and in my head instead of displayed in front of me.   This is where it gets interesting...
  
 To the uninitiated, this was all very foreign and weird. They just couldn't hear the things I did.  Many times I had had non-audiophiles visit my listening room and they were completely flummoxed by my play by play descriptions.  I soon learned that with a little guidance and effort, most, if not all would get it. It was so often such a eureka moment, that I started to describe the "learned response" and breakthrough moment in visual terms like learning how to look properly at 3D stereograms.  Those 2D pictures would pop out and take 3D form when you learned to look past the surface and focus more on a space behind the surface of the page.  Once you get the technique and it pops into place, it gets easier and easier each time until it is practically automatic when viewing stereograms.   I think the same sort of thing happens with our listening abilities. I would tell my visitors about the 3D stereograms and then say that hearing a 3D soundscape was much the same.  I would tell my visitor to open their eyes and imagine that they are seeing the real musicians in the room. Sometimes I would have them point to where they hear each instrument coming from. Then after relaxing and enjoying this experience for some time, I would ask them to now listen past the musicians and try to hear the feint sound of the reverberations off the walls. Once they thought they had that, I would tell them to try to hear the silent space between and around each instrument.  After some time and relaxation (trying too hard never works with this, just like you have to somewhat de-focus to get the 3D stereogram trick to work) quite often I would hear exclamations of "oh wow, now I hear it like you initially described." Obviously this process works best with great recordings done in a real hall rather than panned stuff done in studio booths.
  
 So back to my headphone experience....  I had to re-learn the stereogram listening trick specifically for the headphone perspective.  It was very disconcerting at first and I found that with headphones that my familiar open eyes listening completely threw me off.  You can't turn your eyes around and look inside your head.   It took me a few weeks to acclimate and get my soundstage/imaging chops back in form.
  
 That was rather long winded, but I have been wanting to write something about this for quite some time now.  In the specific case of op-amp listening, I have found the best approach for me is to start off not listening for anything specific. I just relax and get the gestalt experience.  My subconscious seems to know more than I think it does.  I often get a fairly strong initial impression from this.   Then I go back with familiar tracks and listen specifically to soundstage and imaging characteristics.  With an op-amp like the 797BRZ this characteristic really stood out for me.  Once I get that analysis nailed, I will move on to listening to low bass lines, preferably upright bass, kettle drums and pedal organs and then the high treble, preferably violins, cymbals and brushed snares.  For midrange analysis I use human voice as my reference.   As I have said before, I am a real soundstage/imaging whore, so I do that analysis first since it is easiest for me and it will make or break an op-amp change without going much further.


----------



## olek

Thank you for great write-up, captain!
  
 I have to say that I used to listen mostly to tonal balance, notes decay, precision of minute detail, simply because I did not know any better. When I got my DACMini CX (great device, eliminated for me some of issues caused by cheap wiring and suboptimal pre-amp), I finally was able to 'see' 3D sound. It was indeed a bit of 'eureka' moment - like - oh, I was looking in the wrong place all this time! Now I tend to focus more to 'macro' characteristics of  sound more than to 'micro' details, and it tells me more.
  
 The mechanism of that 3D hearing is a very peculiar thing. I always thought that it will not matter much to me since I am half-deaf on one ear. Boy, I never been more wrong. Even that my right ear does not hear much above 4khz, I do hear when imaging is not right, and it bothers the heck out of me now. Can't do the 'pointing to the instruments' trick, but still, overall 'soundscaping' somehow gets through to me, and is very important for the 'immersion experience'.
  
 By the way, another trick that I like to do now when evaluating gear is to grab some good track in 24/96, down-sample it to 16/44.1, then encode it to 320k,190k, 128k, then listen to all those versions, and size up the difference. Better gear tends to let me hear more difference between them, and if I can't hear much difference, I know that equipment is lying to me, even if it sounds really nice.


----------



## stuartmc

olek said:


> By the way, another trick that I like to do now when evaluating gear is to grab some good track in 24/96, down-sample it to 16/44.1, then encode it to 320k,190k, 128k, then listen to all those versions, and size up the difference. Better gear tends to let me hear more difference between them, and if I can't hear much difference, I know that equipment is lying to me, even if it sounds really nice.



Hey, that's a great technique I haven't tried. I'm going to give this a shot and see if I should add it to my arsenal.


----------



## stuartmc

mlegend said:


> Hello everyone! I just want to thank you all for discussing,in great detail, and reviewing the Gustard H10.You persuaded me fairly quickly haha. I am now an owner of the amp thanks to pollychen0306 who was extremely helpful and had no issues answering questions about the amp or shipping. Definitely recommend ordering from them.
> 
> I am using PM3s and a  Mad dog 3.2 at the moment until I can get a pair of paradox slants. If anyone wants to know how those two pair just let me know and i'll do my best to describe how they sound, though the H10 has only been burning in for about 20hrs so the amp might not be fully showing itself considering how many of you guys have said it really does need a lot of burn in.
> 
> ...




Ahoy 'mate. My apologies for being tardy in welcoming you aboard. Join right in with our discussions...The more viewpoints and experiences we have, the better the crew. As for your impedance matching question, you want reasonably high output impedance matched with reasonably low input impedance. Your Odac should have no problems playing with the H10.


----------



## MLegend

Thank you for the welcoming. I appreciate it. Alright cool. I was worried I might have made a mistake even though there are no audio issues. I will happily chime in some discussions that I would be bale to contribute to. Thank you again for the help and welcoming.


----------



## olek

mlegend said:


> Thank you for the welcoming. I appreciate it. Alright cool. I was worried I might have made a mistake even though there are no audio issues. I will happily chime in some discussions that I would be bale to contribute to. Thank you again for the help and welcoming.


 

 Welcome onboard our gus-star-d ship (not to be confused with mustard ship or, God forbid - dastard ship).
  
 I do not have an ODAC, but may have O2 in my hands in couple weeks, it will be very interesting to pit it against H10. Of course, theoretically, nothing can beat O2. Practically, I am not so sure. We will see if it will live up to the hype.
  
 Noticed Sansa Clip on your avatar. I have one of those - great little bugger it is. Excellent tone, smooth and warm. Compared to big/heavy/expensive gear it largest downfall (to my ears) is very flat imaging. It was pretty startling to switch from Apogee Groove to Sansa Clip in the middle of the song for that only reason (2D/3D). But it is surely hard to beat its convenience factor.


----------



## MLegend

Haha thanks olek. Oh wow, that will definitely be an interesting comparison. I would love to hear your impressions when you feel you've given both a fair amount of time to compare. Yeah, I was just looking for a cheap portable player with good sound quality and after reading tons of reviews and impressions on it I pulled the trigger and bought it.
  
 I don't even care about any other portable players anymore because of the clip+. Extremely small, decent battery, perfect(for me) sound quality, and extremely well priced just made it an end game portable player for me even though I know there are better sounding options out there I just couldn't care less.
  
 The clip+ paired with the Meelectronics A151 1st gen is just ridiculous performance for how cheap it all is. This is all my opinion and biased towards my sound preference of course. However I do agree it's very two dimensional when it comes to it's presentation.


----------



## MLegend

pwguy said:


> How do you like the PM3s with the H10? Bass response, soundstage, etc?
> 
> I recently bought a used pair of Alpha Primes and it seems the H10 really pairs well with them from SQ and SPL perspective.


 
 I know I said I would give impressions if anyone asked but MAN..................I really think i'm gonna have to wait until the H10 has at least 100 hours under its belt to give you accurate impressions. If you're itching for just something than I will tell you this....Initial impressions with the PM3 were a little disappointing for me. Compared to my Asus Z97-A, it sounded a tad warmer with less bass impact. The warmth was actually a nice improvement since the Z97 sounded kinda cold. I'm guessing the bass impact was due to it being literally straight out of the box so it still needed to be burned in...I really hope this is the reason because the PM3 already doesn't have that much bass impact so when I plugged them in for the first time and played some test tracks I was REALLY disappointed. 
  
 Can't say much about soundstage, imaging, air, or anything else in that regard because i've been listening to the MD 3.2 solely so they can burn in as well since the Z97-A could not drive them.
  
 As you would expect, the H10 drives the PM3s with absolutey no problem. With no gain, 99% volume on ODAC, and half volume on tidal I was around 10-11:30 on the volume pot.
 Considering the starting point is at 7pm instead of 6 i'm guessing it was around like 35 to 40% volume and it sounds like 80-85db. I don't have my spl meter yet so take those levels with a grain of salt but that's what it sounded like to me.
  
 Mad Dogs are on +6 gain with same ODAC volume but with chrome(tidal, youtube, etc.. at 100%. Volume knob is at 11 and it's quite loud. Probably as loud as I want to go haha. I will definitely be posting more impressions as the time goes on and the H10 starts settling in. It might be a little longer for me to talk about the pm3s since i'm sending them to Zreviews so he can try them out and review them. Maybe a month or so. Also most likely going to be purchasing a pair of ZMF x Vibros and maybe even the blackwoods as well. So i'll probably be giving some impressions on how they pair with the H10 as well.


----------



## Lohb

I was trying to search this thread by images for the wide silver desktop USB in the front to COAX at the back unit from China that was recommended recently.
 Searched 'usb coax' 'usb  coaxial' 'www.taobao.com' no luck.
 Can anyone tell me the name of the unit please ?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I thought I had the post bookmarked.


----------



## stuartmc

lohb said:


> I was trying to search this thread by images for the wide silver desktop USB in the front to COAX at the back unit from China that was recommended recently.
> Searched 'usb coax' 'usb  coaxial' 'www.taobao.com' no luck.
> Can anyone tell me the name of the unit please ?
> I thought I had the post bookmarked.



I think you are talking about the Tanly USB-DDC. http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/1605#post_11621102


----------



## Lohb

BINGO. Someone was asking about USB to Coax in the new r2r thread and then I saw I did not have it bookmarked. Thanks !


----------



## PWGuy

I just plugged in my new Audioquest Jitterbug and I'm hearing positive results with the H10, humble Modi 2 Uber, inline REGEN, and my Alpha Primes.  Already noticed an increase in liveliness in the sound.  Ok this isn't directly related to the H10 but thought I'd post anyways .


----------



## MLegend

Hey does anyone know if the H10 has the same low cut filter on by default like the V200?


----------



## stuartmc

mlegend said:


> Hey does anyone know if the H10 has the same low cut filter on by default like the V200?



I'm pretty sure the H10 does not. On the V200 the low pass filter is on the volume pot and the manual apparently tells you how to disable it as well as lifting the grounds with an onboard dip switch. The H10 has neither of these and from what I have read on the V200 thread that is a good thing for sound quality. V200 owners are strongly encouraged to disable the low pass filter.


----------



## MLegend

Thanks man. I hope it doesn't because after Tyll on innerfidelity posted measurements for the Violectric V281, I've been kind of avoiding violectric products because the bass roll off on the V281 is ridiculous.
  
 Here are the measurements http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ViolectricV281.pdf
  
 I really hope the same implementation isn't on the H10 because I would be kind of scared to open it up and change it knowing I might break it.


----------



## stuartmc

mlegend said:


> Thanks man. I hope it doesn't because after Tyll on innerfidelity posted measurements for the Violectric V281, I've been kind of avoiding violectric products because the bass roll off on the V281 is ridiculous.
> 
> Here are the measurements http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ViolectricV281.pdf
> 
> I really hope the same implementation isn't on the H10 because I would be kind of scared to open it up and change it knowing I might break it.


 
 Holy smokes! No wonder they have been telling everyone to disable it.


----------



## MLegend

I know right. Are you sure the H10 doesn't have it?


----------



## stuartmc

99.99% sure.This is what the V200's manual says:
  
 "Towards the low end, your HPA V200's frequency response is not restricted at all. This means that even extremely low frequencies - right down to DC - will be amplified. "DC-coupling" as this technique is called, is not necessarily useful since neither DC nor very low frequencies are audible, but may damage your headphones on the other hand. Therefore, the HPA V200 offers a low-frequency limiting option as well. For this purpose, the two “LO-CUT“ jumpers to the left and right of the "VOLUME" control can be swapped from “DC“ to “AC“ position. When set to "AC", low frequency response is limited to 12Hz, again referred to the "3-dB point". See also: technical appendix, page 26." 
  
 If you go to page 26, it diagrams physical jumpers on either side of the volume pot. The H10 has a better layout for its volume pot that shortens the signal path, hence the long extension rod from the front control knob to the pot mounted near the back of the board. There are no such jumpers on or near the H10 pot, so no filter is applied.


----------



## MLegend

Yeah i've been reading that manual up and down just to make sure hahaha because you better believe if that stupid bs was applied by default I would change it immediately and give everyone a heads up about it. I haven't opened up my H10 at all so I don't know what the board looks like in person so I wasn't sure if the same jumpers were on there or not. Thank you for letting me know Stuart.I appreciate it. I really wish someone would measure the H10 though, just for real world performance that we all could actually see instead of just reading the specs given. That would be extremely helpful and considering how many people have the H10 as there amp it would benefit a lot of people.


----------



## Beamharit

Hi Guys,
  
 Just got X12 + H10 for a week to drive my LCD2.2, I also change to the burson discrete op-amp. I connect via XLR with 0 gain, the volume knob stays at 9 o'clock all the time, is this Ok or should I use -6 gain?
  
 I used NFB11 for couple of years after I got Gustard combo I was so impressed.


----------



## MLegend

Well honestly it would ultimately be up to you in the end. If you want more precise volume control then use -6 gain. If 0 gain has plenty of volume for you and no channel imbalance then don't change it.


----------



## MLegend

Does anyone have any recommendations for opamps to buy? What do they improve from the stock opamps. I'm not going to solder so I am only asking for one that I can just pop in and use. Thank you.


----------



## Beamharit

genclaymore said:


> Also i thought i should post my op-amp rolling adventure notes here from the results I had with the H10, when I had the bifrost uber in the chain, which i switching to the X12 soon. I described it the best way I could.And I listen to each for a while and took notes.
> 
> The Combos that I liked
> 2xLT12132xAD797BRZ =Wide sound stage, Spacious,Tight hard Hitting bass,Airly Sound
> ...


 
 There are a lot of op-amp information in this thread if you go back around page 198. I use Burson which give so spacious sound-stage but it make bass less perceive, my system are burning in so let see if bass is getting better.


----------



## MLegend

Thank you I appreciate it. Would you or anyone else be able to describe the stock op amp sound like all the others are in that post just to get an understanding of what the stock sound would be compared to the others.


----------



## genclaymore

I don't recall what the stock sound was but i knew i didn't like way it sounded so it changed it as fast as I could.
  
 I did some more testing some of them was with the same op-amps i used before but this time the Gustard X12 as the dac also as before I wording it the best way i can what it sound like to me. I not that good at wording, I am using the Gustard U12 running I2S to the Gustard X12 into the H10, Prior it was a bifrost uber as the source between the two. I tried op-amps that I did earlier with the gustard X12 and gotten different results so they maybe listed again but with different results then what I had on the bifrost uber. 4x means I using Two pair of single channel op-amps on two Dual to single Adapters.
  
  
 2x LT1489 + 2x AD797BRZ= Detailed airly Highs Which are  Bright,Accurate clear Detailed Mids ,Wide and Big 3Dish Sound stage with Tight Lows
 4xLT1357+2xAD797BRZ=Smooth Clean highs,Clear forward mids with impact bass, Tight Lows, narrow Sound stage that is 3Dish
 2x1213+2x AD797BRZ=too Bright and boomy,Sharp Highs. Too much Details
 2xLT1469+2xAD797BRZ= mids,boomy bass Sharp and airly highs ,Uber amount of Detail
 2xLT1361+2xAD797BRZ=Netural, but Volume changes in the highs with ramdom songs which can cause harsh
 4xLT1363+AD797BRZ=Highs are smooth and clean but Tinny and too much Brightness, Mids are recess with Vocals hiding, Lows is tight and accurate, Sound stage is narrow
 2xLT1489+2xLME49990=Clear and clean Highs tad Detailed,Neutral and Accurate mids, Tight Lows with Neutral Sound
 4xLT1122ACN+2xAD797BRZ=Highs Detailed clean but can be bit bright, Mids forward clear, Mid bass Tight, Low bass is deep, SS is good
 4x1357+2xLT1122ACN=Highs are tad bright, very detailed, Mids are clean and crips tight mid bass, Tight Low bass that goes deep, good SS
 4xLT1357+2xLME49990=Smooth and tad Detailed highs,Neutral accurate Mids but a tad recess,Tight lows with wide airily sound stage.
 4xLT1357+2xLT1122=Highs  or cleaned but Very Detailed a tad bright and tinny, Tight Mids Clean with accurate bass,Lows are tight, Good SS
 2xLT1057+2xLT1122=Mids clear n tight,Lows Deep and tight,Small SS
 2xLT1057+2xAD797BRZ=Highs is smoothed while still clean, Mids are tad forward with tight bass with good Vocal, Lows are impact and a bit boomy and  Distorted. Sound Stage is a good but the bass is in your face
 2xLT1469 +2xLT1357=Highs clear Very Detailed , Mids was clean and a tad forward with mid bass impact, Lows are Tight and accurate, Sound Stage is good
 2xLT1355+AD797BRZ=Smooth Detailed Highs,Neutral Mids with Tad bass impact,Tight Lows 3Dish medium Sound stage
 2xLT1489+2xLT1357=Clean and clear highs that are airily, Clean mids with great voical, Tight Lows with a wide and big sound stage
 2xLT1469+2xLME49990=Highs was too bright
 4xLT1122+2xLME49990=Airly Detailed Highs that are a tad bright,Mids are a tad forward and clear, Lows are Tight Sound stage is huge
 2xLT1057+2xLME49990=Smooth clean highs, Mids Neutral, Tad Boomy lows. Small Sound Stage not good depth 2D'sh
 2xLT1355+2xLT1122=Smooth Clean Airly Highs, Mids are a tad Forward with Medium Bass impact and Very Good Vocal,Tight Lows with Big Sound Stage
 2xLT1355+2xLME49990=Smooth Clean Highs, Mids are neutral with slight bass impact, Tight Lows with Neutral sound stage
 2xLT1489+2xLT1122=Smooth Airly Highs with Good Details,Clean  Mids with Great Vocial and Controlled impact-ful bass, Tight Lows with 3Dish Sound Stage and Wide


----------



## MLegend

Jesus that's a lot of information. Thank you I appreciate it very much.


----------



## Lohb

genclaymore said:


> I don't recall what the stock sound was but i knew i didn't like way it sounded so it changed it as fast as I could.
> 
> I did some more testing some of them was with the same op-amps i used before but this time the Gustard X12 as the dac also as before I wording it the best way i can what it sound like to me. I not that good at wording, I am using the Gustard U12 running I2S to the Gustard X12 into the H10, Prior it was a bifrost uber as the source between the two. I tried op-amps that I did earlier with the gustard X12 and gotten different results so they maybe listed again but with different results then what I had on the bifrost uber. 4x means I using Two pair of single channel op-amps on two Dual to single Adapters.
> 
> ...


 

 This is a thumbs up x10 post.
  
 It really should be added to the first post along with a lot of Stu's experiments...it will get lost in the thread.
 When is that H20 coming out ????


----------



## Noodlz

@genclaymore thats awesome info, couple of questions, how'd you mount the LT's and The AD797s? As i understand the BRZs are not snap-ons like the ANZ's right? I'm thinking of trying the following pairing you mentioned. Any recommendations / tips on where to get these and installing them to the H10? Thanks!
  
  
 2x LT1489 + 2x AD797BRZ
  
 2x LT1355 + 2x LT1122
  
 2x LT1489 + 2x LT1122


----------



## genclaymore

I bought my AD797BRZ from Audio_chn but hes located on china i think it took a week to get to me i don't recall. They come already attach to a adapter from him.I got the Linear LT Op-amps from Digikey. The op-amp sockets at the rear where the RCA/XLR dip switches are located is the op-amp socket for dual channel op-amps, such as LT1489 and 1355. The op-amp sockets on the long side of the Gustard H10, is the Single channel op-amp sockets. Also when you do install them make sure the notches or the U on the adapter that the AD797 is on matches the notch that is on the socket. Same with the circle on the op-amps or some times a small 1.


----------



## Noodlz

@genclaymore awesome thanks for the tips! So just to clarify, these are the ones i found:
  
 LT1122 - digikey. I'm assuming all 3 of these work and that the "ACN" version is the best since its nearly double the price?
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LT1122ACN8%23PBF/LT1122ACN8%23PBF-ND/963657
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LT1122CCN8%23PBF/LT1122CCN8%23PBF-ND/890024
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LT1122DCN8%23PBF/LT1122DCN8%23PBF-ND/889112
  
 LT 1355 - digikey - this is the only one i found in stock
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LT1355CN8%23PBF/LT1355CN8%23PBF-ND/888803
  
 LT1489 - couldnt find it on digikey or mouser, i tried searching in the linear technology site but couldn't find anything there either. any tips on where i can get my hands on one?
  
 AD797BRZ - will probably try them from here:
 http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2031
  
 Thanks again!


----------



## genclaymore

The AD797 that you linked are the wrong ones, you linked a dual AD797 on a single adapter, you do not want to use that for the single op-amp sockets as it will cause damaged. You need this one http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=1720 which is the single AD797 on a soic to dip adapter, and you need one for each of the two single channel adapter. Putting a dual channel op-amp into the single channel socket will cause damage.
  
 Linear.com are the maker of the LT op-amps and also sells them, then ebay also have them too.  The LT1155 and LT1489 are dual channel op-amps so make sure you don't install them into the single channel sockets.
  
 Here a picture that I could find and edited it MSpaint to show where the dual and single sockets are.
  
 Blue circled area = Two dual channel op-amp sockets - Where a pair of LT 1155, LT 1489 goes or any Dual channel op-amps. When you look at op-amp spec sheet if it says Channels = 2 then their Dual channel.
  
  
 Red Circled Area = Two Single channel op-amp sockets - Where you place Single channel op-amps like LT1122,LME49990, Single AD797BRZ on SOIC to Dip Adapters and any other single channel op-amps.
 When the spec sheet for the op-amp list channels = 1 then that's single channel.


----------



## Walderstorn

@genclaymore do you have any youtube channel with video tutorials? Cause i never changed opamps and wouldnt want to break my h10 on the first try. 
  
 I would try ebaying (already know were to buy ad797brz from your previous post) for these:
  
 2xLT1355+AD797BRZ=Smooth Detailed Highs,Neutral Mids with Tad bass impact,Tight Lows 3Dish medium Sound stage
 2xLT1489+2xLT1357=Clean and clear highs that are airily, Clean mids with great voical, Tight Lows with a wide and big sound stage


----------



## genclaymore

Sadly I don't but I forgot to mention that  unless there soldied to adapters Dip type op-amps will come as / - \ and you will have to bent the legs so they are straight so they look like | - |  so they will slide into the socket. Also op-amps have a circle on them or a notched on the top of it some times both. You have to match that up with the notch on the op-amp socket which looks like a "u", its important that it matches the same directions.
  
 A IC puller tool will come in hardly for removing the op-amps from the sockets. Also you will need a alan key to open the H10 up as it uses two different sizes of screws.
  
 The closest video i can find is some one installing one into a matrix M-stage
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d6uZeaEugI or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d6uZeaEugI ,Its the same exact way to removing them from the Gustard H10 sockets. I haven't found videos showing it being done in the H10 but those two are the closest I found that should give you some idea's. I'll do it my self if I had a camera.


----------



## Walderstorn

@genclaymore thanks i will watch them carefully when i get home, that said theres an idea  get a camera ehehhe.
  
 I will first try to get the opamps and the puller, the alan i already have it will take a long time coming from china unforunately usually 1 month -.-
  
 If i find sellers from europe i will compare prices and hopefully i can manage to get everything in 1 week instead of 4 and not pay 10x more.


----------



## stuartmc

genclaymore said:


> A IC puller tool will come in hardly for removing the op-amps from the sockets. Also you will need a alan key to open the H10 up as it uses two different sizes of screws.
> 
> The closest video i can find is some one installing one into a matrix M-stage
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d6uZeaEugI or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d6uZeaEugI ,Its the same exact way to removing them from the Gustard H10 sockets. I haven't found videos showing it being done in the H10 but those two are the closest I found that should give you some idea's. I'll do it my self if I had a camera.


 
  
 Excellent opamp commentary 'mate! My hat is off to you for your "swabbing" diligence.  You have played with more than twice as many opamps as I have.
  
 I found that I didn't need a special IC puller tool to safely remove the opamps from their sockets. I found that a small pair of pliers with more flattened, rather than pointed ends, works just fine on the tighter sockets.  Just carefully grip on the plastic sides of the opamp above the pins and lift straight up. When installing the new opamps, you need to have the pin ends lined up well with the socket holes before you attempt to press it down.  Improper alignment can lead to bent pins.  Some of these new opamps have their rows of pin legs splayed out wider than the corresponding rows of holes on the socket. When that was the case, I would carefully lay the opamp on its side on a flat surface and gently apply some pressure so as to bend one side of four pins uniformly inward. I then turned the opamp around and did the same thing to the other row of four pins. After doing this, a test fitting would show all 8 pins lining up with their corresponding socket holes.   There's also the simpler ham-fisted method, where you line up one row of pins with the tips actually in the socket holes and then use a little pressure to bend them just enough to get the other row to line up and push it down.


----------



## Beamharit

Has anyone ever change fuse?


----------



## stuartmc

beamharit said:


> Has anyone ever change fuse?


 
 Yes, I have.  I have tried a few different fuses in the H10, X12, U12 and now X20.  I had a .5 amp fuse blow on me with just the turn on/ turn off spike, so I opted for 1.0 amp fuses throughout. I found some very affordable cryogenically treated ceramic fuses that sound every bit as good to me as some of the more expensive "audio jewelry" fuses I've tried. http://www.cryo-parts.com/product/short-fast-blow-fuses-3/    At this price, I think they are worthy of a try. If you don't hear any difference, then you really haven't lost much at all.
  
 Since we're on the subject of tweaks, I would like to share with the swabbies a good deal I've found on some excellent emi/rfi shielding plugs for your unused rca's.  I'm a real stickler about eliminating stray emi/rfi from my system and part of my regimen has been to cap every single unused connector, be it rca, xlr or bnc.  All of these unused connectors can act as mini emi/rfi antennas, so I believe the use of shielding plugs is money well spent.  The Oyaide MWA-RC's  are made in Japan and have an excellent shielding metal amalgam built into a plastic cap. 
 http://www.amazon.com/Mwa-rc-Pieces-Koyanagi-Electrical-Firm/dp/B008GJGU06/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?ie=UTF8&refRID=0BQ31N4VY7QZ4T3X25H8&ref_=pd_aw_sbs_328_1 They are found on amazon and ebay and ship from Japan.


----------



## stuartmc

*Thank you Swabbies!*
  
 For the sake of full disclosure and also to thank my new friends here, I would like to let you all know that I have officially returned to Positive-Feedback.com. My re-introduction article has now been published-   http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/the-return-of-stus-place/  I gave a hearty shout-out to head-fi.org and the swabbies right here on the H10 thread.  I am dead serious when I say that the fun and camaraderie I have experienced here has been almost exclusively responsible for me changing my mind about high-end audio and ending my self-imposed exile.  There are quite a few individuals I could thank by name, but I think you know who you are. The fact is, there are so many cool people here, both originals and newcomers, that it wouldn't make much sense to do so. 
  
 This is the kind of friendly and helpful interaction that I had always hoped to experience in my little corner of the audio community.  Thank you Swabbies for tolerating my flaws and making audio fun again!  ARRRRR!


----------



## MLegend

Wow.....that was quite a read. Glad to hear you're having fun and enjoying yourself again. That's the way it should be. Thank you for all your contributions to this thread and all the help you've given.


----------



## jaywillin

i started following this thread around page 8-10, something like that, but didn't pull the trigger on getting an h10 about two months ago.
 i've always been  predominately a tube guy, the only solid state amp i really liked, and could have lived with in the long run was the bryston bha-1, until now.
 the h10 best it by a pretty good margin. 
 i've always had a view that burn in was more psychological than the actual piece of kit changing. i do NOT feel the same way with the h10.
 boy, did this thing open up. i'm a believer !
  
 now, what has prompted me to jump in here at this point was something @stuartmc just said. 
 FUN AND CAMARADERIE of this thread. so many threads are filled with a good bit of acrimony. that's not very enjoyable.
 i used to post in a lot of threads, not so much anymore, the only one i regularly take part in the grado thread and that's
 for the exact reasons stuart mentioned. 
 to me, our gear is an end to a means, which musical enjoyment, not to see how much i can spend to prove my "thing-a-ma-bob" sounds better than yours, and here's why i'm right.......
 anyway, nice job guys, this what is good about head-fi !!


----------



## olek

Well said!
  
 H10 with recent op-amp upgrade (797ANZ) is actually doing so well that it managed to outdo its long time rival (in my house) BottleHead Crack with Speedball, which I thought is never going to happen.
  
 I am so happy with the sound I get now from my system, that I have started to sell out other equipment I have acquired in search of my preferred sound (not as easy as it sounds for a pack rat that I am). And H10 is sure to stay as main amp in my audio chain. What a shame, it is my least expensive amp as well, I must have no good taste in hifi at all!
  
 Cheers to camaraderie!
  
 -- Olek


----------



## swannie007

Amen to all the sentiments about camaraderie and friendship in this particular thread. It just pisses me off when a thread becomes a pissing contest about who has the best, biggest, baddest, etc. For me, this is a hobby that is very pleasurable and the gear is just a means to an end, the enjoyment of music. 
 I am afraid though that our hobby may be heading down the same road as the one travelled by audiophile stereo in the past, i.e. ever increasing prices with ever diminishing returns. I certainly hope that this trend slows down and a sense of reality returns to this sector of music enjoyment. The elitist road/attitude is what, in my mind, killed stereo hi-fi for the masses. Christ, who needs a $50k pre-amp and a $30k DAC? Not to mention the price of speakers!! Good music reproduction can be had for a lot less. It seems to me that to play in the big sandbox of music reproduction one needs to bring a sizeable bank balance and the willingness to pay the simply outrageous prices asked by the vendors for their "superior" gear. The Gustard line of gear proves that the price of admittance to good music reproduction need not be silly and can be affordable to "normal" working class folk.
 A disturbing trend I have noticed lately is the ever increasing cost of "headphile" gear and the inclusion of a number of stereo hi-fi vendors at some head-fi shows hawking their expensive gear. How long before this becomes the norm and we scare away the "newbies" to our hobby?(As well as some seasoned veterans).
 Just my 2c worth and if I have offended anyone with my opinions, TOO BAD, they are MY opinions and in a free society I am entitled to them! So, if you want to spit the dummy, grow up and realise that most people have an opinion and they are entitled to it and some people even espouse them. Cheers from "The Bosun in the Bush".


----------



## stuartmc

jaywillin said:


> i started following this thread around page 8-10, something like that, but didn't pull the trigger on getting an h10 about two months ago.
> i've always been  predominately a tube guy, the only solid state amp i really liked, and could have lived with in the long run was the bryston bha-1, until now.
> the h10 best it by a pretty good margin.
> i've always had a view that burn in was more psychological than the actual piece of kit changing. i do NOT feel the same way with the h10.
> ...


 
 Glad to see you join in jaywillin.....welcome aboard!  I'm a big tube guy too and I'm quite happy with the sound I'm getting from the H10.  It turns out that op-amp "swabbing" is just as fun and efficacious as tube rolling -- a wonderful opportunity to "tune your bow."


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Amen to all the sentiments about camaraderie and friendship in this particular thread. It just pisses me off when a thread becomes a pissing contest about who has the best, biggest, baddest, etc. For me, this is a hobby that is very pleasurable and the gear is just a means to an end, the enjoyment of music.
> ......Cheers from "The Bosun in the Bush".


 
 Well said Bosun Swannie. Hey, I meant to tell ya that I gleaned some real gems from the huge list of "song birds" you sent me...thanks 'mate!  Patty Griffin, "Downtown Church" is one of my new favorites. It kind of reminds me of a better recorded Trinity Sessions.


----------



## jaywillin

stuartmc said:


> Glad to see you join in jaywillin.....welcome aboard!  I'm a big tube guy too and I'm quite happy with the sound I'm getting from the H10.  It turns out that op-amp "swabbing" is just as fun and efficacious as tube rolling -- a wonderful opportunity to "tune your bow."


 
 thanks capt 
 i've rolled a few op-amps when i had my little dots, so i'm sure i'll be cracking my h10 open at some point, still doing some catch up reading, paying particular attention to which op-ams folks are digging


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Well said Bosun Swannie. Hey, I meant to tell ya that I gleaned some real gems from the huge list of "song birds" you sent me...thanks 'mate!  Patty Griffin, "Downtown Church" is one of my new favorites. It kind of reminds me of a better recorded Trinity Sessions.


 

 Hello Captain. Good to hear from you again and also glad to see your penmanship is alive and well in other venues. Glad you are enjoying the "songbirds" I referred. Right now I am enjoying my Shanling PH300 hybrid headphone amp fed by my Rotel RDD-06 dac and Gustard U12 cleaning up the optical out from my iMac playing iTunes lossless files(phew, that's a mouthful!). Oh yes, I forgot, I am using my Beyerdynamic T90's to listen to it all. This setup is very unforgiving of poorly recorded material but is sooo revealing with a well recorded piece. I find the Gustard stack is much more forgiving of poorer quality recordings than this setup. 
 I am listening to some amazing blues guitar by numerous artists and thoroughly enjoying myself with this musical smorgasbord.
 I would be happy to make some recommendations for you if this is a genre that appeals to you or intrigues you. 
 Just wanted to check in and send greetings form the "bosun in the bush". Cheers fellow Gustard shipmates.


----------



## MrChowder

With regard to stuartmc's post -  http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/the-return-of-stus-place/ 
  
 Very nice read. Looking forward to future observations.


----------



## swannie007

+1 to that.


----------



## genclaymore

Any of you guys tried using DUal OPA627AU's withe AD797Brz? or tried the 627's in the gustard H10 as I have my eyes set on a pair of OPA627AU's and I was curious if any one gave it a try yet?


----------



## stuartmc

genclaymore said:


> Any of you guys tried using DUal OPA627AU's withe AD797Brz? or tried the 627's in the gustard H10 as I have my eyes set on a pair of OPA627AU's and I was curious if any one gave it a try yet?


 
 I haven't tried the dual opa627's, but my experience with the 797BRZ's on adaptors was so good that I have now ordered the dual 797BRZ's from Analog Metric to try in place of the AD823's, my current favorite in that position.


----------



## olek

Can't wait for your feedback on dual 797BRZ's, Captain.
  
 I am still totally floored the 797ANZ's upgrade, your previous recommendation, and it is hard to imagine that it can be even better, but I have experienced so many 'jumps' in the sound quality in last year, that I am willing to believe that it can sound better indeed.
  
 BTW - looks like I might have new and shiny O2 amp delivered in 2 days, can't wait to compare it to H10. Sadly, my Bottlehead Crack is playing now catch-up game with H10, no matter what tubes I roll, sound is always a tiny bit behind H10 in some aspects (to MY 1.5 ears,  with inexpensive tubes I have at MY disposal).


----------



## MLegend

So if I were to buy a pair of 797BRZs to replace the stock single channel op amps what would I be gaining regarding sound quality. I also noticed that someone said that I would need to get adapters for them so they actually work. Is that true and is it pop in and play? I don't want to solder anything.


----------



## mandrake50

The ANZs pop right in they are DIP8 parts. No adapter is required. The "B" parts require an adapter as they are SOIC  parts designed to be soldered in. Even those, with the adapter, still plug right in to the socket. Some people have bought the chip and adapter individually and soldered the chip to the adapter. I bought mine already soldered to the adapter.
  
 Bottom line, if you buy the 797ANZ parts, they will plug in to the socket directly.
  
 There have been several posts about the difference they make. Check back in the thread a ways, or do a search.
  
 (Edited to correct the part types)


----------



## MLegend

Thank you.


----------



## stuartmc

Reverse what mandrake50 wrote and you have it right. The BRZ's are soic and require an adaptor to plug into the H10 socket. The ANZ variant is dip8 and requires no adaptor to fit.


----------



## robotz

Sorry for the very stupid question but ... Gustard manufacturer does have a website?


----------



## Koolpep

robotz said:


> Sorry for the very stupid question but ... Gustard manufacturer does have a website?


 

 Good question: Not yet. 
  
 It was supposed to be coming soon, but so far - nothing in sight.... 
  
 Cheers,
 K


----------



## mandrake50

stuartmc said:


> Reverse what mandrake50 wrote and you have it right. The BRZ's are soic and require an adaptor to plug into the H10 socket. The ANZ variant is dip8 and requires no adaptor to fit.


 

 Yes you are right...brain flatulence.... sorry for that...
 and I have both, had I looked.


----------



## normanl

mandrake50 said:


> The ANZs pop right in they are DIP8 parts. No adapter is required. The "B" parts require an adapter as they are SOIC  parts designed to be soldered in. Even those, with the adapter, still plug right in to the socket. Some people have bought the chip and adapter individually and soldered the chip to the adapter. I bought mine already soldered to the adapter.
> 
> Bottom line, if you buy the 797ANZ parts, they will plug in to the socket directly.
> 
> ...


 
 May I ask where (the web site) you bought your BRZ already soldered to the adapter and what the part number is? Do I need two? Thanks.


----------



## mandrake50

normanl said:


> May I ask where (the web site) you bought your BRZ already soldered to the adapter and what the part number is? Do I need two? Thanks.


 
http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2030
  
 This is the single. They have duals as well.
  
 Where are you going to install them. In either case you will need two. Go back a few pages, this has been documented with pictures on a couple of different occasions. In short, if replacing the opa134 opamps on the side near the heatsink)  you need two single opamps,and if the ne5532,  (two opamps at the rear) two dual opamps.
 See post 3099 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/3090
  
 (Thanks to *stuartmc)*


----------



## normanl

mandrake50 said:


> http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2030
> 
> This is the single. They have duals as well.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the helpful information. I'm ordering BRZ and also try to order "AD823 dual op-amp chips" to replace ne5532, but analogmetric does not carry them. Where did you order "AD823 dual op-amp chips" ?


----------



## mandrake50

www.digikey.com
  
 I don't have the specific link.
 Here is the info:
 AD823ANZ-ND    $6.70
 IC OPAMP JFET 16MHZ RRO 8DIP


----------



## SearchOfSub

Would this be bad amp for HD800?


----------



## normanl

mandrake50 said:


> www.digikey.com
> 
> I don't have the specific link.
> Here is the info:
> ...


 
 Thanks. Is AD823ANZ-ND dual op-amp? The digikey site does not say whether it is dual or single op-amp. By the way, do I need replace with both BRZ and AD823 simultaneously or replace only with BRZ for opa134 opamps? What are the differences?


----------



## BassDigger

searchofsub said:


> Would this be bad amp for HD800?


 
  
 To answer your question, as it was put: No; it doesn't appear that the H10 is a 'bad' choice of amp, for just about any 'phones; it's got the current to drive anything but the most stubborn of low impedance hps (read he6) and the voltage to work with high impedance phones, like the Sennheisers.
 What's kept this thread with plenty of impetus is the fact that the H10 sounds so much better than its price would suggest. Particularly with planar 'phones. 
  
 If you're asking "Is it a great match with the hd800?". I would guess, not. Fair to good, probably. But not great. I recall that those who have tried the match found that the H10 didn't really do justice to the hd800's powers of resolution. Not as standard, anyway.
 ________________________
 Having not been around here for a while, it's nice to see this thread still going strong. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 BTW, has anyone got a _Chinese_ link for the 797BRZ, ready to fit with the adapters already soldered on? I gotta find out if I can get some of that missing high freq detail back! (And of course, I wouldn't mind if they bump up the other end of the spectrum, a little, either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




; I'm currently giving my H10/lcd2f combo the 'MJ Jam' test. Sounds good, but it's definitely missing the lowest notes. And I think that it could sound a little crisper in the highest frequencies. Or maybe I'm just getting old!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## mandrake50

Quote: 





normanl said:


> Thanks. Is AD823ANZ-ND dual op-amp? The digikey site does not say whether it is dual or single op-amp. By the way, do I need replace with both BRZ and AD823 simultaneously or replace only with BRZ for opa134 opamps? What are the differences?


 
 You can tell by looking at the data sheet. There should be a connection drawing right near the top. I inserted the one for the AD823 above.
 Notice the two triangles. Each represents a single  opamp. Notice that there are two of them. It is a dual opamp design. A single opamp will have only one triangle.
  
 Beyond that, I gave you the part number for exactly what I am using. I would not tell you to use a single opamp to replace a dual opamp.
  
 No you do not need to replace both sets. The whole idea of this opamp rolling is to mix and match in order to find the preferred sound for your ears.


----------



## olek

searchofsub said:


> Would this be bad amp for HD800?


 

 What BassDigger is saying is truly the consensus of this thread. Mind you, I do not have HD800 myself, so take it with a grain of salt - H10 strength (tube like sound) are not aligned with HD800 strength (transparency).
  
 Now, with 797ANZ H10 is MUCH more precise. I have heard that 797BRZ's are improving on those, and then there is another couple of opamps to upgrade. My bet is those upgrades should move H10's compatibility with  HD800 from 'fair' to 'very good, especially for the price', but it is hard to say without trying, and after all, everybody's taste is different anyway.
  
 Personally, I prefer H10 + HD600 to H10 + H650 (by far), and some people say that HD800 are closer (in character) to HD600 than HD650 (not to say that they are in the same ballpark sound-wise!).


----------



## Wil

Happy to join the club! 
  
 Did the recommended op-amp roll (all AD op amps).
  
 Source is ifi iUSB -> ifi iDSD.
  
 Streaming Tidal and i'm happy to report that right off the bat, the Gustard has taken the edge off the RS1 (as opposed to being powered by the iDSD's headphone section). 
  
 Very organic, smooth and the treble is no longer harsh as it was on the iDSD (I reckon the iDSD makes for a better source as opposed to a dedicated headphone amp). 
  
 Will let it run in and report back.


----------



## Walderstorn

I wish someone would make videos how to op-amp these, im 2 chicken to do it "blindly" eheh


----------



## Wil

walderstorn said:


> I wish someone would make videos how to op-amp these, im 2 chicken to do it "blindly" eheh


 
 Hiya Walderstorn,
  
 First time changing op-amps today as well and it was pretty easy.
  
 Just make sure you have the correct op-amps. 
  
 All the op-amps that require changing have 8 "pins" that are legs that plug into slots in the PCB. 
  
 * Just think of it as changing tubes, it really is about the same but on a much smaller level. 
  
 Just have a proper light source to identify the op-amps that you are gonna change, a steady hand and some patience and you're good to go. 
  
 The op-amps have a small circle on the bottom left corner (IIRC), just follow that circle for alignment and you're all set.


----------



## jackharm

Just ordered one!
  
 Hopefully it will pair nicely with my NFB-15/O2ODAC and my HE-400/DT880


----------



## Wil

Currently giving the Gustard and HD800 a go. 
  
 Very promising, this.


----------



## SearchOfSub

wil said:


> Currently giving the Gustard and HD800 a go.
> 
> Very promising, this.





No more anylytical? is it finally musical by any chance?


----------



## Wil

searchofsub said:


> No more anylytical? is it finally musical by any chance?


 
  
 I would actually say it is neutral.
  
 The bass goes deep (If it is in the record). 
  
 My op-amps are all changed so i can't tell if the original Gustard will have the same result as mine.
  
 Currently listening to Angel by Massive Attack and the bass is fast and deep with no bloat, vocals are not sibilant as well, which i can appreciate. The soundscape is very organic and separation is fantastic. 
  
 Will give other records a listen and report back, but this is def. listenable to me (Take note that my HD800s have the anaxilus mod as well).


----------



## normanl

wil said:


> I would actually say it is neutral.
> 
> The bass goes deep (If it is in the record).
> 
> ...


 
 What are your replaced new op-amps? Can you also please list the part numbers and the stores that you ordered? Thanks.


----------



## MLegend

What op amps are you using?


----------



## Wil

Hi all, i replaced the OP134s with the AD797ANZ and the 5532s with the AD823ANZ
  
 Got them from a local store (walk in purchase).
  
http://sg.element14.com/analog-devices/ad797anz/ic-op-amp-u-low-noise-dip8-797/dp/9603778\
  
http://sg.element14.com/analog-devices/ad823anz/ic-op-amp-fet-r-r-dual-16mhz-823/dp/1438582


----------



## jackharm

Reading through these last few pages makes me think I should order 2x AD797ANZ's and 2x AD823ANZ's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Will have to wait until next week to order them if I do since I blew this week's budget on the H10 itself.


----------



## mandrake50

wil said:


> Hi all, i replaced the OP134s with the AD797ANZ and the 5532s with the AD823ANZ
> 
> Got them from a local store (walk in purchase).
> 
> ...


 

 Well? What are your thoughts on the differences in the sound. I have a bunch of opamps here that I have yet to try... looking for motivation.
  
 I have the 797ANZ and LME49720NA in there now. I actually installed the LME49720NA by mistake instead of the AD823ANZ. I like the sound better than the stock setup. I just have not gotten around to changing to the AD823ANZ. I have the 797BRZ  sitting here along with the dual BRZ on their way. I also picked up a full set of the newest Burson discrete opamps. I have the last version as well, but never installed them due to the power and heat issues.
  
 Has anyone tried the new Bursons?  Anyone compared the LME49720 to the AD 823ANZ ?  
 I am enjoying the H10 as it is. More time listening than playing with opamps I guess. I need a push to start exploring..


----------



## genclaymore

I done a review with the new Bursons inside the Gustard H10 and paired them with the LT1355 and LT1489 with the AD797BRZ in the single channel right here.  I been enjoying them a lot more as the days go by. When ever my OPA627 Get here I gonna try out more combos using the bursons.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/784790/burson-supreme-sound-audio-v5-opa-d-v5-opa-s-review#post_11997930


----------



## mandrake50

Thanks for that. Nice comparison. Not exactly what I need, but that is not your fault. I just don't have any of the opamps that you used except the 797BRZ (which I haven't plugged in yet) And, I have never heard any of the songs that you used... I will have to try and locate them to try out.
  
 Do you have any thoughts about the Burson V5  compared to the stock opamps?
  
 Thanks again for the review!


----------



## genclaymore

I had a lot more op-amps then what i used in the review, i just went with the one's i liked and compared them to the bursons. I haven't compared the V5 to stock. But I do recall that I didn't like the way it sounded stock, the bass was muddy. There was another reason but I don't recall.  I took out the stock and threw them some where never to return to them.


----------



## MLegend

genclaymore said:


> But I do recall that I didn't like the way it sounded stock, the bass was muddy.


 
 Now what do you mean exactly when you say muddy?


----------



## genclaymore

I used the wrong word, I remember the bass being boomy at stock and I didn't like that. So the first thing I did was change the op-amp from OPA134 to LME49990's or another op-amp that i can't recall, I have so many op-amps. When I first had the Gustard H10, I had a bifrost uber. I just can't recall which other op-amp i used.


----------



## MLegend

Ah I see. It seems a lot of people don't like the bass on the stock op amps. That's all I have right now so hopefully when I buy 797s there will be an improvement.


----------



## stuartmc

The stock op-amps are just fine. We're talking about incremental changes here. We are taking an already excellent amplifier and tweaking it to our preferred flavor.


----------



## MLegend

Yeah I know. I wasn't saying that it sounds bad to me but I wish it performed better in some areas. On my setup ODAC(revb) & H10 the bass doesn't seems to hit as hard and deep as my asus Z97-A onboard. It's definitely not as airy either but that doesn't bother me as much.as the bass.


----------



## sling5s

Several years ago I used to own the V200 (amp) and V800 (dac). 
 I found the V200 warm and musical but on the dry side and felt the soundstage was little narrow and mids congested and treble rolled off.
 Reading through the thread, I got the impression that the Gustard H10 was an improved V200--more sweeter mids with better soundstage and treble extension. 
 Half way through this long thread, someone interrupts and dashes my assumptions and posts that it's inferior to the V200 and that everyone is deaf.
 Hmmm. I'm thinking, I just joined and ordered the Gustard H10 on Massdrop.  Did I make a mistake? 
  
 I also have the Lyr 2 (high end Russian tubes) with Multi-Bifrost and Vali to compare. I'll be using the Gustard H10 with Grado GH1 and JH13 pro. 
 I guess I'll have to listen for myself and draw my own conclusions.


----------



## MLegend

Oh man please do. Lyr 2 vs H10 with the Multi-Bitfrost as source would be a great comparison. I highly recommend that you let the H10 burn in first though just to have a truly fair comparison.


----------



## jaywillin

sling5s said:


> Several years ago I used to own the V200 (amp) and V800 (dac).
> I found the V200 warm and musical but on the dry side and felt the soundstage was little narrow and mids congested and treble rolled off.
> Reading through the thread, I got the impression that the Gustard H10 was an improved V200--more sweeter mids with better soundstage and treble extension.
> Half way through this long thread, someone interrupts and dashes my assumptions and posts that it's inferior to the V200 and that everyone is deaf.
> ...


 
 i can't wait to hear your thoughts as well, especially the bifrost !


----------



## sling5s

Massdrop will ship next month so it will be some wait but yes.  





mlegend said:


> Oh man please do. Lyr 2 vs H10 with the Multi-Bitfrost as source would be a great comparison. I highly recommend that you let the H10 burn in first though just to have a truly fair comparison.


----------



## stuartmc

genclaymore said:


> I done a review with the new Bursons inside the Gustard H10 and paired them with the LT1355 and LT1489 with the AD797BRZ in the single channel right here.  I been enjoying them a lot more as the days go by. When ever my OPA627 Get here I gonna try out more combos using the bursons.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/784790/burson-supreme-sound-audio-v5-opa-d-v5-opa-s-review#post_11997930


 
 Very nicely done.  We are putting together quite a data base on H10 op-amps. The more people learn about the flavors with personal anecdotes, the more focused they can be on their choices. Being a pecunious Scotsman, I appreciate not having to buy five or more op-amps to find my gem. That being said, I did pull the trigger on the dual 797BRZ's from Analog Metric to try in place of the AD823's.


----------



## mandrake50

stuartmc said:


> The stock op-amps are just fine. We're talking about incremental changes here. We are taking an already excellent amplifier and tweaking it to our preferred flavor.


 
 Ya know, I was going to write something similar but you beat me to it.
  When I got the H10 and first plugged it in... the music coming from the darn thing was very nice. Usually it takes me a bit to get used to a new piece of gear before I can get into it at all. Not so with the H10.
  
 One of the reasons I have all of these opamps and have never spent the time to swap them in and out is that I just think the thing sounds great as is...
 I guess I am not as afflicted with the ,must compare to live, syndrome. I just like to listen to good music ...


----------



## Shaffer

sling5s said:


> Several years ago I used to own the V200 (amp) and V800 (dac).
> I found the V200 warm and musical but on the dry side and felt the soundstage was little narrow and mids congested and treble rolled off.
> Reading through the thread, I got the impression that the Gustard H10 was an improved V200--more sweeter mids with better soundstage and treble extension.
> *Half way through this long thread, someone interrupts and dashes my assumptions and posts that it's inferior to the V200 and that everyone is deaf.*
> Hmmm. I'm thinking, I just joined and ordered the Gustard H10 on Massdrop.  Did I make a mistake?




You may be talking about me. I don't recall even implying that everyone was deaf. I did say that the facts at play did not point to a single individual who actually heard a V200 in a controlled setting next to the Gustard. Like one's own system. Comparisons to a V200 were based solely on wishful thinking. FWIW, I did audition the Gustard when I owned a V200. They sat right next to each other. I genuinely hope you enjoy yours.


----------



## sling5s

shaffer said:


> You may be talking about me. I don't recall even implying that everyone was deaf. I did say that the facts at play did not point to a single individual who actually heard a V200 in a controlled setting next to the Gustard. Like one's own system. Comparisons to a V200 were based solely on wishful thinking. FWIW, I did audition the Gustard when I owned a V200. They sat right next to each other. I genuinely hope you enjoy yours.


 

 Ahh...your the one! Darn man...why did you have to go rain on my parade. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Well, I think at some point, everyone was parroting everyone. I remember I kept reading the same couple members who kept posting how the Gustard was the superior V200 clone without actually owning the V200. In the end, everyone has different ears so maybe it is superior to some ears. Who knows, I may think so. At a certain point, it's a preference thing. Cheers.


----------



## sling5s

First, looking over the thread again, what gives me assurance that the Gustard H10 is indeed a decent if not nice piece of gear, and not just a cheap V200 knock off, is that there are throughout this thread, positive impressions by very seasoned members who have or had owned and auditioned really good equipment and seems to know their stuff. I look at their experience and gear and judge how much their impressions are worth. 
  
 Second, it's funny how there are so many who were head over heels about the Gustard H10 no longer own it. For example, few who found it superior to the Lyr 2 still have the Lyr 2 but no longer have the Gustard H10. Not making fun of anyone. Its what the hobby does to us. We're constantly looking to match our gear as our gear changes.
  
 Currently I have the Lyr 2 and Vali because it seemed to work well with the LCD-2F.  But because I no longer have the LCD-2F, I'm looking for an amp to suit my Grado GH-1 and JH13pro.I'm hoping the Gustard H10 will do the job.
  
 It's an interesting hobby.


----------



## Koolpep

sling5s said:


> First, looking over the thread again, what gives me assurance that the Gustard H10 is indeed a decent if not nice piece of gear, and not just a cheap V200 knock off, is that there are throughout this thread, positive impressions by very seasoned members who have or had owned and auditioned really good equipment and seems to know their stuff. I look at their experience and gear and judge how much their impressions are worth.
> 
> Second, it's funny how there are so many who were head over heels about the Gustard H10 no longer own it. For example, few who found it superior to the Lyr 2 still have the Lyr 2 but no longer have the Gustard H10. Not making fun of anyone. Its what the hobby does to us. We're constantly looking to match our gear as our gear changes.
> 
> ...




Yep. And it's as well interesting how the people still hang around in the H10 thread even if they don't own one anymore (like me). I sold mine when I realized the difference between the H10 and my Burson conductor being very marginal with my cans. Though I preferred the Gustard by a bit. Since I needed the DAC of the Burson, I kept the conductor and sold the H10. I still miss it and am probably buying it again eventually or step up and go for the H20 (who knows when) .... I also wanted to buy a Violectric V200 just to have a comparison and pay homage to the "real innovators" from my home country. 

Bu currently my desire to purchase more amps has slowed down tremendously, so this might have to wait


----------



## jackharm

Just got my H10 setup, now time to let it burn . . .


----------



## stuartmc

koolpep said:


> Yep. And it's as well interesting how the people still hang around in the H10 thread even if they don't own one anymore (like me).


 
   Because there are cool people here 'matey!


----------



## Koolpep

stuartmc said:


> Because there are cool people here 'matey!




Aye aye, spontaneous group hug.


----------



## moriez

sling5s said:


> First, looking over the thread again, what gives me assurance that the Gustard H10 is indeed a decent if not nice piece of gear, and not just a cheap V200 knock off, is that there are throughout this thread, positive impressions by very seasoned members who have or had owned and auditioned really good equipment and seems to know their stuff. I look at their experience and gear and judge how much their impressions are worth.
> 
> Second, it's funny how there are so many who were head over heels about the Gustard H10 no longer own it. For example, few who found it superior to the Lyr 2 still have the Lyr 2 but no longer have the Gustard H10. Not making fun of anyone. Its what the hobby does to us. We're constantly looking to match our gear as our gear changes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 FWIW, H10 really isn't a cheap knock off compared to V200. I don't hear it and will say they're much rather equals to my ears. Had the two next to each other for about a week and the only things that really struck me is the blacker background and slightly more compressed soundstage of the V200. That's it! Not worth the extra money in my opinion. Decisive factor was also the near perfect stackability with BH Crack. Furthermore plenty power, multiple inputs, swappable op-amps (I'm 797ANZ-ready but haven't even bothered). For the money? A winner.
  
 Edit: going back over the thread for a bit I now remember not only the V200's slightly compressed soundstage but also the slight more darkness for lack of a better word. H10 was perceived as a bit more airier which may have come only from the more emphasized top.


----------



## sling5s

moriez said:


> FWIW, H10 really isn't a cheap knock off compared to V200. I don't hear it and will say they're much rather equals to my ears. Had the two next to each other for about a week and the only things that really struck me is the blacker background and slightly more compressed soundstage of the V200. That's it! Not worth the extra money in my opinion. Decisive factor was also the near perfect stackability with BH Crack. Furthermore plenty power, multiple inputs, swappable op-amps (I'm 797ANZ-ready but haven't even bothered). For the money? A winner.
> 
> Edit: going back over the thread for a bit I now remember not only the V200's slightly compressed soundstage but also the slight more darkness for lack of a better word. H10 was perceived as a bit more airier which may have come only from the more emphasized top.


 

 Glad to hear it.  It's great to hear from someone who did some direct comparisons.
 Massdrop should have it to me by the second week of Nov. But it's been several years since I had the V200. My opinions won't count as much since it will be from memory. Nevertheless, I think the Gustard will either complement my Lyr 2 or make it unnecessary.


----------



## jerick70

Hi Maties. This sounds like a really fun thread. I purchased the H10 because of all the hoopla on this thread. I wasnt expecting much. I'm very glad I listened. This is an exceptional amp. It's the best sounding desktop SS amp I've owned by a large margin. I went to tubes for a long time but wanted to try something new. 

Now it's time for some opamp rolling. Would you go for the AD797/AD832 combo or the Bursons?


----------



## stuartmc

jerick70 said:


> Hi Maties. This sounds like a really fun thread. I purchased the H10 because of all the hoopla on this thread. I wasnt expecting much. I'm very glad I listened. This is an exceptional amp. It's the best sounding desktop SS amp I've owned by a large margin. I went to tubes for a long time but wanted to try something new.
> 
> Now it's time for some opamp rolling. Would you go for the AD797/AD832 combo or the Bursons?


 
  
 Welcome aboard Swabbie!  I'm an old school tube guy and I too found much to love about the H10.   Thank goodness that op-amp "swabbing"  is much less expensive than tube rolling. That being said, you might want to try out some of the less expensive op-amp combinations like the 797/832 before popping for something as pricey as the Bursons. I haven't listened to the Bursons, so I can't say anything about whether the price matches the performance. If you can get the 797BRZ variant pre-mounted on an adaptor, I would definitely go for that over the 797ANZ.   I got mine from Analog Metric in Hong Kong and the price for two shipped was only $26. Well worth the few extra bucks, in my opinion. http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2030


----------



## jerick70

stuartmc said:


> Welcome aboard Swabbie!  I'm an old school tube guy and I too found much to love about the H10.   Thank goodness that op-amp "swabbing"  is much less expensive than tube rolling. That being said, you might want to try out some of the less expensive op-amp combinations like the 797/832 before popping for something as pricey as the Bursons. I haven't listened to the Bursons, so I can't say anything about whether the price matches the performance. If you can get the 797BRZ variant pre-mounted on an adaptor, I would definitely go for that over the 797ANZ.   I got mine from Analog Metric in Hong Kong and the price for two shipped was only $26. Well worth the few extra bucks, in my opinion. http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2030


 

 Thanks for the warm welcome!  I still own a few tube amps and I have the Feliks Audio Elise on on order right now.  I can't get away from the glow. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm using the H10 for my work desk setup.  Tubes and work don't mix.  I love the H10 so much that I may buy a second for home.    
  
 Arrrrrrrrr...swabbing it is then.... I've ordered the 797/832 ANZ combo and the 797 BRZ from your link.  I'm going to try some other combos mentioned here too.  I'll wait on the Burson's though.


----------



## hpamdr

jerick70 said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome!  I still own a few tube amps and I have the Feliks Audio Elise on on order right now.  I can't get away from the glow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Jerick and welcome 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 With the Elise you will be addicted to Tube Rolling.
 With H10 to OPA rolling, RFI armouring, ..... (you wil need some screwdrivers but will be less expensive)
 But at the end, you will have reference gears_ (or at least the best bor the value)_ for almost all the cans you can get !


----------



## Wil

Been running in the H10 for about a week now. 
  
 Op-amps are the  AD797ANZ and the AD823ANZ. +6 gain for the HD800. 
  
 Cans used - HD800 W/ stock cable, source is my fidelized PC with tidal streaming feeding an ifi iUSB and ifi IDSD. 
  
 Over the course of the week, i found the bass a tad too light and treble too harsh as first. The unit was new so before jumping to conclusions i let it run in first (cans are at least 2 years old with the anax mod). 
  
 It's about past the 50 hour mark where it started to settle down very nicely. 
  
 The bass has started to blossom, not in an exaggerated way mind you. It has heft and rumble IF it is in the recording. It is not going to make poorly mastered records suddenly have bass. But for properly mastered / recorded tracks, the bass will be there, tight, tuneful and quick - it does not overwhelm the music but integrates beautifully.  ( I never thought i would be able to enjoy John Digweed with the HD800s but that's made up the bulk of my listening the past couple of nights, the bass is so quick and tuneful it makes the bass on other headphones seem ponderous and plodding - there is simply no overhang).
  
 The highs have settled as well, with the treble being particularly delightful on hard-bop jazz, it fizzles and sizzles BUT in a realistic way that does not threaten to shear your ears off. Hi-hats shimmer with scary realism. I've never been a treble-head but this combination seems to be edging me in the direction. (In comparsion, my previous setup of the HE6 powered directly via a 18W Almarro SET speaker amp had thunderous bass that had more slam than the HD800 but treble was an issue as it always toed the line of being a little too hot). 
  
 Shall let it run in more and report back again. I might be getting a Valhalla 2 next week with some copper litz cables for the HD800, should be an interesting comparison between the H10 and Valhalla.


----------



## jerick70

hpamdr said:


> Hi Jerick and welcome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm really looking forward to the OPA swabbing.  I did a little with the Fiio E12DIY and really liked the differences it made.  This will be a welcome change from tubes.  $150 + a pop for good tubes is getting a bit to much. Unfortunately I can't stop though....


----------



## hongant

Any1 have bought AD823ANZ on ebay from this seller? Is it too cheap to be original? 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-AD823ANZ-AD823AN-DIP-8-AD-FET-Input-Amplifier-/180920841397


----------



## stuartmc

hongant said:


> Any1 have bought AD823ANZ on ebay from this seller? Is it too cheap to be original?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-AD823ANZ-AD823AN-DIP-8-AD-FET-Input-Amplifier-/180920841397




I would be suspicious of this one.


----------



## jerick70

stuartmc said:


> I would be suspicious of this one.




I'm with stuartmc, I would be suspicious too. 

I've been burned on Amazon, of all places, buying Muses opamps. I didn't know they were fakes until a year later. You live and learn. Anyway, I only buy opamps from certified dealers now.


----------



## hongant

Thanks for the advice. I'll stick with certified dealers then


----------



## hongant

A question for the people who use H10 with HE-500. Which opamps and earpads are you using and recommending?


----------



## bavinck

Not sure if this has been discussed previously, but I am finding the synergy with the h10 and dt770 250 is excellent. Every genre, just wonderful!


----------



## fritobugger

Stock opamps and Focus pads. 



hongant said:


> A question for the people who use H10 with HE-500. Which opamps and earpads are you using and recommending?


----------



## jaywillin

hongant said:


> A question for the people who use H10 with HE-500. Which opamps and earpads are you using and recommending?


 
  
  


fritobugger said:


> *Stock opamps and Focus pads.*


 
 same here


----------



## genclaymore

hongant said:


> A question for the people who use H10 with HE-500. Which opamps and earpads are you using and recommending?


 

 I use the cheap hifiman Velvet earpads as for op-amp's it depends on what type of sound your looking for, or if your not happy with the stock op-amps. I know I wasn't happy with the OPA134's in the single channel's and was the first one i changed as i didn't like what it did to the bass and the sound as it made the bass boomy and wasn't clear to me thats was one thing i didn't like with it off the top of my head.
  
 Also I have a Gustard X12 as my source so the results might be different for you if your using a sound card as a source or another dac. Since I don't know what you have your H10 plugged into. Also it depends on the type of improvement that you want too. I haven't mentioned the LT1489 with OPA627AU as i currently running it and wont post how it sound to me til it's done burning in(Rather you belive burn in or not)

  The Gustard has Two dual channel op-amp socket's at the rear of the unit where the input connections are and Two single channel sockets at the width of the unit.  Also when you do swap the op-amps make sure yo match the notch on the op-amp or circle with the dip-8 , also your gonna have to bend the op-amp legs so they look like |-| from /-\ so they slide in. Also I explaining how the combo sounds to me the best way i can.
  
 2xDual Channel +2x Single channels
 LT1358             + AD797Brz = Smooth Clean highs,Clear forward mids with good bass, Tight Lows, narrow Sound stage that is 3Dish
 LT1358             + LME49990 = Smooth and tad Detailed highs,Neutral accurate Mids but a tad recess,Tight lows with wide airly sound stage.
 LT1469             + LT1357 = Highs clear Very Detailed , Mids was clean and a tad forward with mid bass impact, Lows are Tight and accurate, Sound Stage is good
 LT1355             + LT1122 = Smooth Clean Airly Highs, Mids are a tad Forward with Medium Bass impact and Very Good Vocals,Tight Lows with Big Sound Stage
 LT1489             +LT1122 = Smooth Airly Highs with Good Details,Clean  Mids with Great Vocal and Controlled bass, Tight Lows with 3Dish Sound Stage and Wide


----------



## hongant

My DAC is a Yulong D100 II. Atm. I use the XLR output from D100 to a set of Focal CMS 50 active speakers. I was thinking of using the RCA output to the H10 when it arrive next week. Will I loose some power and sound quality by using RCA from D100 to H10 compared to XLR?  Does the RCA connection have enough power for the HE-500?
 I also have the opportunity to use RCA from D100 to active speakers instead and use XLR for H10, but would like to hear some opinion from you guys.


----------



## jackharm

100+ hour burn-in is finished


----------



## lalala6

What's the recommended burn in time for best performance? I'm at 136 hours at the moment, the sound is really good but it isn't blowing my mind yet.


----------



## olek

Usually burn-in is finished by about 75 hours. Sound still changes afterwards, but it is much more subtle change.
  
 If you still do not like the sound, it may simply be not your kind of sound. Truth is, tastes differ  So do expectations 
  
 Admittedly, I almost sold my H10 (largest complaint - slightly smeared lows - to my taste), but decided to try 797ANZ upgrade about a month ago - and so far it looks like I am going to be selling my other equipment but H10 is here to stay 
  
 I see in your profile you got some good headphones, but you may need to upgrade your sources (dragonfly?) to get best from H10. For me it personally started to really shine when I started feeding it from Dacmini CX via reasonable cables (do not want to start another cables war here, but if you - like me recently - use $15 RCA cables - that would seriously limit its sound). Wait for that DacPort Slim - never tried it, but I tend to look favourably on anything with CEntrance name on it those days. If you can get your hands on Wireworld Luna 7 stereo to RCA cable, it should be a fine (and relatively inexpensive) way to feed signal from it to H10. And Mediabridge cables do not cut it at all (they are good cables and an amazing value, but at a lower level). Putting my flame suit on 
  
 If I have offended you in any way, and/or you already use better DAC (than what is in your profile) with reasonable cables, I apologise. Just trying to think of reasons (other than taste) why it may not sound its best.


----------



## bavinck

olek said:


> Usually burn-in is finished by about 75 hours. Sound still changes afterwards, but it is much more subtle change.
> 
> If you still do not like the sound, it may simply be not your kind of sound. Truth is, tastes differ  So do expectations
> 
> ...



Olek, 
That 797ANZ upgrade only involves purchasing 2 2 797ANZ and replacing the stocks ones, no adaptor required. Is that correct? If so, is there agreement on the best place to buy them? 
Thanks


----------



## olek

Yes, just replace 2 opamps with 797ANZ, no adapters required. That upgrade stopped me from moving away from H10. There is no agreement on best place to get them, but it is best to stick with reputable dealers of Analog Devices (or you could request one from AD itself). Rumors are that BNZ version is even better, but I have not tried it, and it surely requires adapter with chip soldered on it. I keep that upgrade for the future, when upgrade-itis kicks in.


----------



## lalala6

olek said:


> Usually burn-in is finished by about 75 hours. Sound still changes afterwards, but it is much more subtle change.
> 
> If you still do not like the sound, it may simply be not your kind of sound. Truth is, tastes differ  So do expectations
> 
> ...




Thanks for the advice! Don't worry, I'm not offended. I was actually using the DACmini CX with the H10, but just sold the CX to be replaced with a SMSL M8 ES9018 DAC. I am absolutely not using the Dragonfly with the H10, lol.

Strange, my H10 didn't even sound good at 75 hours (thin and lacking dynamics), and only really start to open up after 100 hours. This is with the DACmini CX and Schiit PYST RCA cables. I got my DACmini way before the H10 and it was already burned in fully. However even at 136 hours on the H10, I feel that it still isn't sounding its best. Will continue burning until 200 hours and see how it goes.

Will try out the AD797ANZ though. I'm not new to opamp rolling (did it with my E12DIY), and the 797 seems like a cheap way to improve the H10's sound. Appreciate the suggestion!


----------



## olek

Great, it sounds like you are on the right track! 
  
 There was quite some deviation in burn-in experience for different users reported here. Most report big changes around 70-80 hours, but some say that there was pretty much no burn in, and some said that it fully opened up after about 300 hours.
  
 Very curious about you experience replacing DacMini with SMSL M8 (through the 'eyes' of H10), although we might be shamed for OT here.
  
 So far DacMini is by far my best dac. I also got 9018-based Apogee Groove and while it is VERY nice portable device, it does not quite measure up to DacMini.


----------



## bavinck

I would like to read about the smsl m8 with the h10 as well!!


----------



## hpamdr

SMSL M8 is a good dac for what you pay.. But the minimum enhancement is to change the power supply you can use SMSL P1 or any good 9V linear power supply.Another place to pay attention with M8 is the USB connection, I encourage you to use very short cable.
 You can add a gustard U20 in front of M8 but you will loose DSD decoding as M8 do not accept I2S.
 It pair well with H10 even if it sound a bit dry..
  
 I did switched from M8 to oppo BDP105 using XLR input and I did gain in transparency and dynamic. It was not a night and day change IMO, the M8 is still a decent DAC for the money (I still use it in different room or when I travel).


----------



## jackharm

Just ordered some 797BRZ's from analogmetric, can't wait.
  
 So far though I am enjoying the H10 (about 120+ hours in now) with my NFB-15 and (modded)HE-400's, they sound a lot fuller and more 3D when compared to just the NFB-15. If I had to nitpick about one thing it would be that the vocals do sound a bit distant like many others have noted in this thread; it would be perfect if they were just a few steps closer.
  
 Hopefully the 797BRZ's will help in that regard.
  
 But then again that slightly distant vocal does add sort of a more layered sound(it's interesting) and probably less fatiguing sound? (not too sure how to describe it)


----------



## jerick70

jackharm said:


> Just ordered some 797BRZ's from analogmetric, can't wait.
> 
> So far though I am enjoying the H10 (about 120+ hours in now) with my NFB-15 and (modded)HE-400's, they sound a lot fuller and more 3D when compared to just the NFB-15. If I had to nitpick about one thing it would be that the vocals do sound a bit distant like many others have noted in this thread; it would be perfect if they were just a few steps closer.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes this upgrade will make a huge difference.  I recommend that you replace the dual input opamps at the same time with the AD823ANZ too.


----------



## jerick70

I just received my 797ANZ/823ANZ combo and installed them in my H10 today.  This combo of opamps cleans up the entire audio spectrum from top to bottom.  They tighten up the bass and mid-bass.  Plus you keep all of that wonderful warmness.  The best I can describe it is like when you have a projector that is barely out of focus and you focus it and then it's crystal clear after that.


----------



## bavinck

I ordered the 797anz version, don't want to mess with soldering. Which opamp will these replace?


----------



## jerick70

bavinck said:


> I ordered the 797anz version, don't want to mess with soldering. Which opamp will these replace?


 

 They replace the two front OPA134PA opamps.


----------



## jackharm

jerick70 said:


> Yes this upgrade will make a huge difference.  I recommend that you replace the dual input opamps at the same time with the AD823ANZ too.


 

 I'll try that out after testing the 797BRZ's, plus I cannot seem to find a seller that sells 823ANZ's and accepts paypal as payment.


----------



## jerick70

jackharm said:


> I'll try that out after testing the 797BRZ's, plus I cannot seem to find a seller that sells 823ANZ's and accepts paypal as payment.




Mouser accepts paypal and carries the AD823ANZ.


----------



## jackharm

jerick70 said:


> Mouser accepts paypal and carries the AD823ANZ.


 
 Odd, I don't seem to have that option on their payment selection page. The only given options are debit/credit, net30, wire/proforma.
  
 Perhaps it is just not an available payment option for those outside the US.


----------



## bavinck

jackharm said:


> I'll try that out after testing the 797BRZ's, plus I cannot seem to find a seller that sells 823ANZ's and accepts paypal as payment.



Is this upgrade in addition to replacing the OPA134PA? What sonic upgrades are people finding with the 823anz upgrade?


----------



## lalala6

olek said:


> Great, it sounds like you are on the right track!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder if the deviation is because we all burn in at different volumes... I burn mine at 10 o'clock on the pot at 0 gain, if that matters.
 
Sure, will write up on my experience of M8 with H10 and the differences compared to DACmini with H10. I've halted the burn in for now until the M8 arrives, but probably won't get it till two weeks later though (DHL Global Mail is sloooow)
 


> I would like to read about the smsl m8 with the h10 as well!!



No problem, will post my impressions of M8 with H10 when I receive it. 




 


hpamdr said:


> SMSL M8 is a good dac for what you pay.. But the minimum enhancement is to change the power supply you can use SMSL P1 or any good 9V linear power supply.Another place to pay attention with M8 is the USB connection, I encourage you to use very short cable.
> You can add a gustard U20 in front of M8 but you will loose DSD decoding as M8 do not accept I2S.
> It pair well with H10 even if it sound a bit dry..
> 
> I did switched from M8 to oppo BDP105 using XLR input and I did gain in transparency and dynamic. It was not a night and day change IMO, the M8 is still a decent DAC for the money (I still use it in different room or when I travel).



Thanks for the advice. I've actually placed an order for SMSL P1 alongside the M8, so they should be arriving around the same time. I also plan to get an Audioquest Jitterbug to use with the M8. Any idea what's a good USB cable that won't break the bank?


----------



## fritobugger

lalala6 said:


> olek said:
> 
> 
> > Great, it sounds like you are on the right track!
> ...


 
 I had the M8 without the P1 feeding the H10 for quite some time and then got the P1.  I couldn't hear any difference between the P1 and the stock power supply.  I like the P1 though for the additional 5/9/12V output for a powered 3.0 USB hub for networking hard drives full of music.


----------



## jackharm

bavinck said:


> Is this upgrade in addition to replacing the OPA134PA? What sonic upgrades are people finding with the 823anz upgrade?


 

 Yup, you can choose to replace both the opa134 and Ne5532 opamps with the AD797ANZ/BRZ and AD823ANZ. In regards to sonic differences, there are a few posts here and there in this thread you can find via a quick search.


----------



## stuartmc

jackharm said:


> Yup, you can choose to replace both the opa134 and Ne5532 opamps with the AD797ANZ/BRZ and AD823ANZ. In regards to sonic differences, there are a few posts here and there in this thread you can find via a quick search.



Yep, do a thread search and you will find my comments on the combination. A few others have given it a go as well.


----------



## bavinck

Has anyone got impressions on synergy with the h10 and the emotive dac1?curious as to their pairing, as opposed to getting the x12 or something like the bifrost Mb (which is only se I know)


----------



## hongant

Does burn-in from unbalance input also effect xlr input or are they 2 separate Circuit?


----------



## natemact

I know the NE5532's in the back are used for balanced to single ended conversion so there's that part of the circuit that wouldn't see a signal when using the rca input, but this is a tough call to make. 

I always did wonder why the H10's balanced input was always touted superior to it's rca's when running the H10 SE yields a shorter signal path and one less opamp/channel too boot. Maybe it's the flavour of the 5532 that adds to the perceived increase in SQ but I would've thought different.


----------



## natemact

On the opamp tip, I know it's a very subjective topic but I'm having great results with a couple of LME49720HA's in place of the 5532's...well actually they replaced 49720NA's, that took the baton out of the 5532's hand.

Through research through diyAudio, GearSlutz, etc..I found this and Muses02 to be regularly and highly recommended as 5532 replacement, and the recommendations continue..here..now.

I really enjoy their added bass authority/texture but also equally notice a more driving nature to music, more life and energy making every song I've listen to more engaging. I guess the proper audiophile term I'm looking for here would be PRAT. I also found there to be an increased presence to vocals with bit more detailed mids (ie: lips smacking, breathing). Treble seemed to be tamed ever so slightly but it was welcomed as the 49720NA's I was previously using could at times be a bit bright.

Being TO-99 mount you have to first trim a third of the length off the pins. Then splay the pins out to fit a DIP-8 arrangement. To aid in getting the right pin in the right hole there's a tiny tab on the opamp pointing to a pin. This pin's correlating hole is the top left hole of the socket. To be technical this is pin #8.

**Important** Due to the arranging of the pins they will no longer be equal length once placed in the socket so after fitting the opamp in the socket pull it back out and find the shortest pin. Then trim all longer pins down to this pin's length. This is to ensure all pins have equal contact with socket.


----------



## Wil

And what do you know, the H10 makes a superb match for my AAW W500 CIEMS. 
  
 I have gain dialled down -6 and i hear nary a hiss. 
  
 Bass/sub bass is phenomenal. 
  
 Letting my new CIEMS burn in, but i am seriously enjoying this combination. 
  
 It is extremely fun to listen to while retaining gobs of inner detail.


----------



## bavinck

H10 is an absolute amazing buy. I have recently discovered it has turned my dt770s into something I enjoy more than my he500s. Amazing amp. 

Just need a better dac now, am thinking of the smsl m8 that is on massdrop right now.


----------



## fritobugger

bavinck said:


> H10 is an absolute amazing buy. I have recently discovered it has turned my dt770s into something I enjoy more than my he500s. Amazing amp.
> 
> Just need a better dac now, am thinking of the smsl m8 that is on massdrop right now.




How many ohms are those DT770?


----------



## bavinck

fritobugger said:


> How many ohms are those DT770?


 
 250


----------



## bavinck

bavinck said:


> 250


 
 Bass rumble in unreal! The low end of the h10 really shines through on the dt770 250. Not just quantity, but texture and extension too.


----------



## olek

Ummm... interesting.
  
 I had 600 Ohm version of DT770 for couple days (before I totally inadvertently murdered them), and they did sound nice from H10, but from what I remember sound was typical to closed-back headphones - flat and without much soundstage that my ears are craving for. Sound signature was overall very similar to DT880 600 Ohm version (a good thing in my book) - very neutral. One big distinction (for me) was bass. Unfortunately, DT770 were the headphones that taught me the meaning of 'one-note bass' phrase - anything down there was very similar, and lacked definition and texture.
  
 Overall sounds was quite decent, and combined with good noise isolation on those phones I actually liked them, and was sad to lose them because of my stupidity.
  
 But is was not much of hi-fi sound.
  
 Curious why we had such different impressions. Maybe different impedance, plus different age/condition (of headphones, not ours) affected the outcome (I got mine old and well used).
  
 From my more current experience - 600 Ohm DT880 can sound better driven by bottlehead crack than H10 (all other headphones are the other way around), so impedance does play a role...


----------



## bavinck

Yes, I will need to more critically listen for bass. Can you provide some song exemples that you would use test for bass texture?


----------



## olek

Be careful what you wish for 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I like to use any jazz recording with double-bass in it to evaluate bass quality and ability to reproduce that frontal attack.
  
 Like Tsuyoshi Yamamoto / Autumn in Seattle / The Way we Were.
  
 Eva Cassidy's "Live at Blues Alley" already mentioned here, song "People Get Ready". Not sure if that is double-bass playing in the background, but man, it goes so deep, and being a background sound it is difficult thing to render right.
  
 Deva Premal / 2010 Tibetan Mantras for Turbulent Times / Invocation - insanely deep monk vocals, very richly textured. Good music to spook kids around Halloween time too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Or, for classical music, try first minute of Jean Sibelius Pohjola's Daughter, Op. 49, that cello is magnificent and rumble of drums is quiet but deep and rich. There are so many renditions of it, but this one is the one I would recommend (slow and deep): https://youtu.be/vUSC2dpkxbY


----------



## swannie007

A few weeks ago I swopped out the 5532 op amps in my H10 for some 823's and got an appreciable step up in bass clarity and was quite pleased and this evening I swopped out the OPA134's for the 797's and all I can say is WOW! The whole musical spectrum is so much cleaner and it is as if I can "look into" the music soundscape much deeper than before and the bass has, once again, improved and is much more resolved and does not just drown out the background instruments. I am listening to Marcus Miller right now who plays a five string bass guitar and the bass is front and centre and very enjoyable as I can now hear much more of what the recording/sound engineer meant for me to hear, i.e. all the fine nuances of the music that were drowned out before. The best way I can describe it is like a picture that has come into sharp focus showing all the fine detail. Electric guitars of all persuasions are rendered absolutely beautifully and oh those female vocals!!! Absolutely delicious.
 A big thanks to the captain for recommending this combo, highly recommended!
 A note to the captain - You must listen to Shelby Lynne's edition of Wishin' and Hopin' on her Just A Little Lovin' album, just fabulous! Cheers from the "bosun in the bush".


----------



## stuartmc

Bosun Swannie!    Let me start right off with a tip of the Captain's hat for the Shelby Lynne reccomendation. I just listened to the whole album of "Just a Little Lovin' " and it's been added to my ever growing songbird list.  Gorgeous voice, gorgeous songs and a superb recording!
  
 I'm also very pleased to hear that my First Mate is trimming his jib with some tasty op-amps.  Isn't this fun!  We start off with an amp that is a stupid good performer at a ridiculously low price and then we can have fun personalizing its sound.  I noticed the enhancement of soundstaging the most with the 797/823 combo, followed closely be neutral tonal balance and clarity.   I would agree that the clarity really shows itself with bass tracks - no more amorphous washes of seemingly texture-less low bass, nope, a smorgasbord of  subtle tonalities.  Marcus Miller is definitely a great choice for electric bass listening along with my go to guy, Stanley Clark. For acoustic bass, my favorite  is Glen Moore playing his 1715 era Klotz double bass fiddle.
  
 I'm not done with my op-amp swabbing. The 797BRZ/823 combination is a tough act to follow, but I'm keeping my mind and ears open to discovering some more ear-nectar.  Today is a very good swabbing day at Stu's place.  Arriving simultaneously are the dual 797BRZ's pre-mounted on adapters to try in place of the AD823's  and also a complete set of single and dual op-amps from the Burson boys in Oz.  


  
 Its pretty cool how they put a 797BRZ on top and solder another one underneath in such a small package. Rather nicely done and very reasonably priced from Analog Metric in Hong Kong.  I got a pair delivered for $40.64.  The Burson Audio Supreme Sound Op-amps are very impressive to look at and even have a Joey logo for that Oz magic.  They run $90 for a shipped pair of the single op-amps and $150 for the duals.  If they can really outperform the 797's, then I will consider it money well spent.  
  

  
 I snagged this pic from their website, so all us swabbies can appreciate what is going on inside and why they cost so much more than mass produced IC op-amps. This is going to be VERY interesting. The king of discreet op-amps vs. what I consider to be a top IC op-amp.  Much thanks to Dennis at Burson for hooking the Captain up.  The Bursons need many hours of burn in as compared to an IC op-amp, so an honest comparison will take me at least three or four weeks of near continuous play.  Stay tuned 'Mates, I got this!


----------



## christian u

stuartmc said:


> I like the sound of the H10 so well with the Hifiman HE-400i that I couldn't resist the urge to score the HE-560 at a nice price from a fellow head-fier.  I'll probably pass along my HE-400i at an equally nice price. They will need to go to a good home with someone who will appreciate my very careful grill and pad modifications.
> 
> I had another interesting listening session with Gustard X12 last night.  I was doing A- B comparisons to the Aune S16 and I was quite frustrated that with additional breakin, the X12 hadn't opened up that last bit that I thought it would.  Every time I switched to the S16, I was hearing a more relaxed, natural, life-like sound. This was all about soundstage and the ambience of the recording venue, because that is what I was focusing on and was the most apparent difference between the two. The Gustard was still sounding a little too forward, with somewhat flattened images and a treble that wasn't harsh, but did have a slightly overemphasized leading edge on plucked notes.  I left it alone and on continuous play for a few more hours and when I returned, I decided switch up the setup. For A-B comparisons I had the Gustard DAC sitting ontop of the H10 and my Rega Apollo-R transport perched ontop of the X12. The Gustard DAC was essentially sandwiched between two other components. The Aune S16 was sitting on the side, all by itself, with no other components above or below.  I now put the X12 by itself and the S16 went into the stack sandwich.
> 
> ...




 It  a wonderful recording indeed but the video is not from the actual recording session but from the Dutch Jazz TV.
 The Thousand Shades of Blue download is recorded in front of a live audience as you can hear here;
  
 And the sound is even better but you are probably right that this is more or less how they record;
 Quote: from the liner notes http://www.soundliaison.com/


> The 12 pieces of music were performed live in the studio in front of a studio audience. The musicians were placed in front of a stereo pair of microphones with additional spot microphones on each instrument. The musicians were playing without headphones, the reason being that we believe that when we get the musicians to play together in the same room,with out headphones, it creates a number of musical and technical benefits:
> As they are not ''separated'' by the headphones, the musicians, in order to hear each other are forced to create a natural and musical balance, a balance which is then easily captured by the main stereo pair of microphones. Because of the natural and musical balance the need for compression to control levels is no longer necessary, and since everybody is in the same room,the boxed sound which is so common in many modern recordings is absent, and the sound of the room helps ''glue'' the sound of the recording.
> This is all very well but there are also problematic aspects to this procedure:
> The room, studio, has to have a good sound. The musicians have to be very good and well prepared as it is very difficult to repair mistakes because of the ''cross talk'' between the instruments, we have to be very precise when choosing and placing the microphones and the puzzle of placing the musicians at the right distance to the main stereo microphones and the right distance to each other, is also time consuming. And when we have a live audience in the studio, we pray that they remember to turn of their cell phones and the ones with a bad cold choose to stay at home. The room where the recordings has been done is the now legendary Studio Eleven situated in the the building of the Dutch World Broad Casting Service. The Studio was used extensively in the 60's by European and visiting American jazz musicians (Wes Montgomery, Cannonball Adderley, Dexter Gordon, Eric Dolphy.....). The Dutch World Broad Casting Service asked Frans de Rond to bring the room back to life as a recording studio, and Frans after seeing and hearing the room jumped at the opportunity. Sound Liaison has been allowed to use the room for our audiophile projects and we are eternally greatfull to the Dutch World Service for the opportunity.
> ...


----------



## jerick70

stuartmc said:


> Bosun Swannie!    Let me start right off with a tip of the Captain's hat for the Shelby Lynne reccomendation. I just listened to the whole album of "Just a Little Lovin' " and it's been added to my ever growing songbird list.  Gorgeous voice, gorgeous songs and a superb recording!
> 
> I'm also very pleased to hear that my First Mate is trimming his jib with some tasty op-amps.  Isn't this fun!  We start off with an amp that is a stupid good performer at a ridiculously low price and then we can have fun personalizing its sound.  I noticed the enhancement of soundstaging the most with the 797/823 combo, followed closely be neutral tonal balance and clarity.   I would agree that the clarity really shows itself with bass tracks - no more amorphous washes of seemingly texture-less low bass, nope, a smorgasbord of  subtle tonalities.  Marcus Miller is definitely a great choice for electric bass listening along with my go to guy, Stanley Clark. For acoustic bass, my favorite  is Glen Moore playing his 1715 era Klotz double bass fiddle.
> 
> ...




Do tell. How do the Bursons sound in the H10?


----------



## stuartmc

Well, I'm pissed!  One of my dual 797BRZ's is DOA.  I'm going to have to get a replacement from Analog Metric and that should take another three weeks.  So...... I'm now going to go full boat with the Bursons.  I'm going to put in both sets and give them a good burn in. After they have stabilized, I will do a comparison to the 797/823 combo and then compare the single and dual versions separately.


----------



## jackharm

Speaking of analogmetric, according to the tracking number they gave me for the pair of 797BRZ's, they have arrived and been delivered to CERRITOS, CA . . . I live in Canada. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 EDIT:

 On the bright side, I too have some Bursons on their way to me (hopefully by the end of this week/mid next week).
  
 Once they arrive I'll burn them for 5 days straight and report back with impressions/photos of them vs. the stock op-amps.


----------



## stuartmc

jackharm said:


> Speaking of analogmetric, according to the tracking number they gave me for the pair of 797BRZ's, they have arrived and been delivered to CERRITOS, CA . . . I live in Canada.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...




The tracking is bizarre with analog metric. Don't let it bother you. Both times I have seen nothing on tracking for two weeks and then crazy stuff shows up. California is probably their preferred port of entry for north America. Usps will take over and hand off to Canada post.


----------



## genclaymore

The burson work very well in the gustard H10 for me over the op-amps I compared it to in the review I did. I currenty using the V5-OPA-D with the OPA627AU's and they work very nice together. I started try out some earlier combos i tried with the V5s in their place instead. It be a while before i try them again again.


----------



## sunneebear

genclaymore said:


> The burson work very well in the gustard H10 for me over the op-amps I compared it to in the review I did. I currenty using the V5-OPA-D with the *OPA627AU's* and they work very nice together. I started try out some earlier combos i tried with the V5s in their place instead. It be a while before i try them again again.


 
  
 While the 627 sounded good in some other amps I've tried, they are too syrupy with the H10.  Haven't looked back since I put the Burson's in.


----------



## bavinck

Wow, that 797 swap sure cleaned up the low end. Didn't know it was so messy down there until I popped those in tonight. I guess I will try the 823s now as well. Also have the burson's v5s incoming, so a few of us will be able to comment on those. Burson is recommending 100hrs of burn in though, so it will take some time for considered reviews and impressions.


----------



## MLegend

So just to be sure, if i'm using the unbalanced connections are the rear op amps being utilized? Are they just for balanced? If I were to buy new opamps should I get both 797/823 if i'm using unbalanced or just 797?


----------



## moriez

bavinck said:


> Wow, that 797 swap sure cleaned up the low end. Didn't know it was so messy down there until I popped those in tonight.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Do you find that the cleaner low end goes hand in hand with less perceived quantity? Any other impressions?


----------



## bavinck

moriez said:


> Hi,
> 
> Do you find that the cleaner low end goes hand in hand with less perceived quantity? Any other impressions?


 
 No, I would say the quantity is about the same, but the quality has more texture and detail, in the low end especially. I feel like soundstage is a bit larger and more detailed, and clarity of the whole sound has improved a bit. I would say my impression of the sound change agree with what our Captain has already noted. To my ears the detail and texture of the bass was immediately noticeable, that I am sure of.


----------



## tvnosaint

I've just received the h10 courtesy of Peterek . Great seller btw. Now to dig through 230 pages of thread to see what mods I can do to this baby. Unless I find a link first. 
 For now I'm enjoying it with a pulse as the dac from USB , feeding he560 and zmf vibro. This is destined to have a monarchy nm24 hooked up this week end to get me some tubey goodness in there.


----------



## stuartmc

mlegend said:


> So just to be sure, if i'm using the unbalanced connections are the rear op amps being utilized? Are they just for balanced? If I were to buy new opamps should I get both 797/823 if i'm using unbalanced or just 797?


 
 Yes, if you are using the unbalanced rca's, you still need to have those input op-amps in place. In the stock version  you are listening to the NE5532. The AD823 is IMO, a definite improvement.


----------



## stuartmc

tvnosaint said:


> I've just received the h10 courtesy of Peterek . Great seller btw. Now to dig through 230 pages of thread to see what mods I can do to this baby. Unless I find a link first.
> For now I'm enjoying it with a pulse as the dac from USB , feeding he560 and zmf vibro. This is destined to have a monarchy nm24 hooked up this week end to get me some tubey goodness in there.


 
 You are going to love that H10 / HE560 combo. I have been using a heavily modded HE560 with mine and I'm seriously impressed with the sound I'm getting.  Browse through the pages and you will see some of the mods that I have done to the H10. They include:
 1. Changing the cabinet feet for carbon cones with constrained layer damping.
 2. Extensive emi/rfi shielding with 3M AB5100S material (particularly the transformers)
 3. "Swabbing" op-amps - such as, changing the two opa134's to AD797's and the two NE5532's to AD823's
  
 Have fun and welcome aboard 'matey.


----------



## tvnosaint

Thanks Mac,
Op amps first I think.. The mids are very forward with my zmfs. Too much, kinda honky. I will def follow your lead. I nearly bought your bel canto a while back. Thanks for response.


----------



## jerick70

stuartmc said:


> Bosun Swannie!    Let me start right off with a tip of the Captain's hat for the Shelby Lynne reccomendation. I just listened to the whole album of "Just a Little Lovin' " and it's been added to my ever growing songbird list.  Gorgeous voice, gorgeous songs and a superb recording!
> 
> I'm also very pleased to hear that my First Mate is trimming his jib with some tasty op-amps.  Isn't this fun!  We start off with an amp that is a stupid good performer at a ridiculously low price and then we can have fun personalizing its sound.  I noticed the enhancement of soundstaging the most with the 797/823 combo, followed closely be neutral tonal balance and clarity.   I would agree that the clarity really shows itself with bass tracks - no more amorphous washes of seemingly texture-less low bass, nope, a smorgasbord of  subtle tonalities.  Marcus Miller is definitely a great choice for electric bass listening along with my go to guy, Stanley Clark. For acoustic bass, my favorite  is Glen Moore playing his 1715 era Klotz double bass fiddle.
> 
> ...


 

 I ordered a set of Burson v5 op-amps on account of this post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I should have them soon.  I'll post my impressions and pics of the swap process once I get them.
  
 What does everyone use to pull their op-amps?  I did a number on the stock op-amp when I pulled them to replace with the AD 797 and AD 823.  I need a better hammer for the job.  especially since I keep buying new ones.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I was thinking of something like this ic puller http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Insulated-Vinyl-Puller/dp/B0002JEZ2I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446702220&sr=8-1&keywords=ic+puller


----------



## bavinck

I used needle nose pliers, no problem at all.


----------



## stuartmc

bavinck said:


> I used needle nose pliers, no problem at all.




+1 for the pliers. I use a pair that has a squared off end, so not quite so needle nosed.


----------



## bavinck

@stuartmc
Any early first impressions about the v5s?


----------



## GioF71

Hello everyone.
 Yesterday I replaced the standard op-amps of my H10 with a set of Burson Supreme V5 SS-Opamp. Dual + Single, a total of 4 pieces of course.
  
 Here are some photos!
  
 The boxes:
  

  
  
 Setting up....
  
 Case opening
  

  
 All op-amps set-up. I had a photo taken 'during' the process, but it was horribly out of focus so I had to drop it.
  
  

  

  

  

  

  

  
  
 Anyway, one thing worth to mention (even if it has been told already in this thread) is that the dual op-amps are near the back of the H10, while the single are in the right side.
 The Burson op-amps have a bezel whose position need to match the position of the notch of the op-amp you are going to replace. It is a very easy and straightforward process.
 I am no expert and I did the whole operation in 10 minutes or so.
  
 I only had one issue, in fact related to the gustard h10 rather than the op-amps: one of the rear screws was overtightened. Luckily, I managed to pull it out with the help of a philips screwdriver. I obviously had to replace the screw with a similar one. Nothing major.
  
 But I simply do not understand the need of overtightening, especially with hexagon socket head screw: sometimes the head of these kind of screws is very fragile and if overtightened, it becomes very hard to extract them because they can easily worn.
 Now back to listening!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 with my Sennheiser HD650 (not shown here)
  

  
 The boxes now contain the original op-amps:
  

  
  
*First impressions*: a very nice improvement! Enhanced detail retrieval and wider soundstage.
 These are the impressions after 20-30 minutes of listening; I will report more impressions in a few days.
  
 Edit: corrections


----------



## bavinck

giof71 said:


> Hello everyone.
> Yesterday I replace the standard op-amps of my H10 with a set of Burson Supreme V5 SS-Opamp. Dual + Single, a total of 4 pieces of course.
> 
> Here are some photos!
> ...


 
 Nice! Thanks for the pics. Keep in mind Burson recommends at least 100hrs burn in. Are you comparing sound to the stock op-amps or to something else?


----------



## GioF71

Hello, thanks.
I was using the stock op-amps


----------



## stuartmc

bavinck said:


> Nice! Thanks for the pics. Keep in mind Burson recommends at least 100hrs burn in. Are you comparing sound to the stock op-amps or to something else?


 
 Nice pics GioF71!  You saved me the trouble of posting mine.  It is indeed a simple process to install the Burson op-amps. I too installed the single and double Bursons. Actually, the height and solid walls of the Bursons makes for very easy placement/alignment before pressing them into place.  I am contemplating using some 3M AB5100s material on the red casing to completely shield the Bursons from emi/rfi. I will experiment with that after they have completely burned in.
  
 A quick note on that "burn-in"...  the Bursons definitely need some time to bloom.  They sounded compressed with a very forward midrange when I took a first listen.  I wasn't concerned at all because that is typical for a "fresh" circuit.  24 hours with the Purist Audio Enhancement disc (the Roto Rooter of break- in tracks) and they are sounding incredibly good!  I'm going another 24 hours before I will give any substantive details, but this is VERY promising, to say the least.


----------



## bavinck

The v5s review very well on the burson v5 thread, I expect to hear good things with the h10


----------



## mandrake50

Originally Posted by *stuartmc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  
_Bosun Swannie!    Let me start right off with a tip of the Captain's hat for the Shelby Lynne reccomendation. I just listened to the whole album of "Just a Little Lovin' " and it's been added to my ever growing songbird list.  Gorgeous voice, gorgeous songs and a superb recording!_
  
_I'm also very pleased to hear that my First Mate is trimming his jib with some tasty op-amps.  Isn't this fun!  We start off with an amp that is a stupid good performer at a ridiculously low price and then we can have fun personalizing its sound.  I noticed the enhancement of soundstaging the most with the 797/823 combo, followed closely be neutral tonal balance and clarity.   I would agree that the clarity really shows itself with bass tracks - no more amorphous washes of seemingly texture-less low bass, nope, a smorgasbord of  subtle tonalities.  Marcus Miller is definitely a great choice for electric bass listening along with my go to guy, Stanley Clark. For acoustic bass, my favorite  is Glen Moore playing his 1715 era Klotz double bass fiddle._
  
_I'm not done with my op-amp swabbing. The 797BRZ/823 combination is a tough act to follow, but I'm keeping my mind and ears open to discovering some more ear-nectar.  Today is a very good swabbing day at Stu's place.  Arriving simultaneously are the dual 797BRZ's pre-mounted on adapters to try in place of the AD823's  and also a complete set of single and dual op-amps from the Burson boys in Oz.  _
  
  
 Curious Stuart, When did you order your dual 797s? I ordered some back on 10/8 and have not gotten them. Las order for them was here within about 14 days... Getting worried... and they sent them with no tracking.
  
 BTW, I got a set of the V5 Bursons a while back... right when they were announced. I have yet to install them. Keep us posted on what you think... both you and *GioF71* .. please!


----------



## MattTCG

Anyone looking to sell? Pm me


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Funny. I miss the H10 as well.


----------



## olek

Funny. Long time no see, both of you. May Gods of sound shine on whatever you are listening ON right now


----------



## sling5s

I've only burned the thing in for five hours and it's already sounding better than my Lyr 2 with my best tubes (75' Reflectors). I know many have said it sounds like crap but I really didn't experience it. At this point see no point in keeping my Lyr 2...maybe only for the purpose of serving as my preamp to my stereo preamp/amp and speakers. I really wish this thing had preamp. That would make it perfect!


----------



## Liu Junyuan

sling5s said:


> I've only burned the thing in for five hours and it's already sounding better than my Lyr 2 with my best tubes (75' Reflectors). I know many have said it sounds like crap but I really didn't experience it. At this point see no point in keeping my Lyr 2...maybe only for the purpose of serving as my preamp to my stereo preamp/amp and speakers. I really wish this thing had preamp. That would make it perfect!


 
 I sold my Lyr shortly upon receiving the H10. I didn't have the '75 Reflectors at the time though. That's some pretty impressive praise for the H10.


----------



## sling5s

I'm pretty surprised and impressed too. 
 Is it safe and better to keep it on all the time?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

sling5s said:


> I'm pretty surprised and impressed too.
> Is it safe and better to keep it on all the time?


 
 I tend to turn my amps off but keep my DACs on.


----------



## sling5s

Thanks.
  
 Whats the default setting (when all switch in down)? 0 or 6+?  
 I have not messed with the settings yet. 


liu junyuan said:


> I tend to turn my amps off but keep my DACs on.


----------



## jackharm

FWIW I left my H10 on for the majority of the intial 100hour+ burn-in (did 20 hours then 1 hour break then two sets of 40 hour intervals).
  
 Right now I am at about 150-200hours (having owned it for about 2 weeks now) and am loving it with my HE-400's.
  
 Can't wait to see how the set of V5's will play with my H10 (after I burn those in).


----------



## bavinck

sling5s said:


> I'm pretty surprised and impressed too.
> Is it safe and better to keep it on all the time?



Somewhere in this thread someone told us that leaving it on all the time might wear out stuff faster, and turning on and off too much might as well. The general idea was turn it on and off once a day. I turn mine off when I go to bed, then turn it back on when I get home from work the next day.


----------



## bavinck

liu junyuan said:


> Funny. I miss the H10 as well.



What possessed you to get rid of it???


----------



## sling5s

Tidal with Amarra through Bifrost Multibit to Gustard H10 (out to Grado GH1) sounds sublime.


----------



## Dithyrambes

matttcg said:


> Anyone looking to sell? Pm me


 
 Was gonna ask the same thing  Didn't you sell one recently?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

sling5s said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Whats the default setting (when all switch in down)? 0 or 6+?
> I have not messed with the settings yet.


 
 I always kept mine on +3. I found +6 was too exaggerated and +0 too "limp" for my headphones, with the +3 providing just the right amount of fullness and what I perceived as dynamics. I am going off of memory.
  


bavinck said:


> What possessed you to get rid of it???


 
  
 I was using my other amp, La Figaro 339, more than the H10 and was looking into other gear. I still use the 339 as my primary amp but still miss the H10 solid state. The critique of the original op-amps most posters here are expressing are probably another reason; I never rolled others. I still think the stock are great, but I had to get used to the lack of air in the treble initially. The H10 seemed almost too polite while at the same time being incredibly resolving, moreso with my Lyr regardless of tubes. I still think the H10 is a fantastic amp.


sling5s said:


> Tidal with Amarra through Bifrost Multibit to Gustard H10 (out to Grado GH1) sounds sublime.


 
  
 That would be a great setup!


----------



## natemact

Hate to sound like a broken record but if anyone's curious about getting the most out of your H10 on the cheap, you gotta try lme49720ha's in the back (to go along with 797brz's). The 49720na (aka lm4562) was designed for use in hi-end audio gear and the metal can "ha" version is superior to the dip-8 in every possible way.
  
 While I assume the Bursons are better still, the 49720ha's cost only $10 and with my ebay acquired 797brz's, a measly $15/pair...a far cry from the $220 needed to go "full Burson". I can also attest to the authenticity of the brz's as they do indeed sound much improved over my anz's. If anyone wants the link, pm me.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



On the opamp tip, I know it's a very subjective topic, but I'm having great results with a couple of LME49720HA's in place of the 5532's...well actually they replaced 49720NA's, that took the baton out of the 5532's hand.

 Researching through diyAudio, GearSlutz, etc..I found this and Muses02 to be regularly and highly recommended as 5532 replacements, and the recommendations continue..here..now.

 I really enjoy their added bass authority/texture but also equally notice a more driving nature to music, more life and energy, making every song I've listen to more engaging. I guess the proper audiophile term I'm looking for here would be PRAT. I also found there to be an increased presence to vocals with bit more detailed mids (ie: lips smacking, breathing). Treble seemed to be tamed ever so slightly, but it was welcomed as the 49720NA's I was previously using could at times be a bit bright.

 Being TO-99 mount you have to first trim a third of the length off the pins. Then splay the pins out to fit a DIP-8 arrangement. To aid in proper pin alingment there's a tiny tab on the opamp pointing to a pin. This pin's correlating hole is top left on the socket. To be technical, this is pin #8.

 **Important** Due to the arranging of the pins they will no longer be equal length once placed in the socket so after fitting the opamp in the socket pull it back out and find the shortest pin. Then trim all longer pins down to this pin's length. This is to ensure all pins have equal contact with socket.


----------



## Kozic

natemact said:


> Hate to sound like a broken record but if anyone's curious about getting the most out of your H10 on the cheap, you gotta try lme49720ha's in the back (to go along with 797brz's). The 49720na (aka lm4562) was designed for use in hi-end audio gear and the metal can "ha" version is superior to the dip-8 in every possible way.
> 
> While I assume the Bursons are better still, the 49720ha's cost only $10 and with my ebay acquired 797brz's, a measly $15/pair...a far cry from the $220 needed to go "full Burson". I can also attest to the authenticity of the brz's as they do indeed sound much improved over my anz's. If anyone wants the link, pm me.
> 
> ...


 
 So you are talking about something like this?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-LME49720HA-LME49720-TO-99-TO-DIP8-Opamp-IC-PCB-replace-opa2604-NE5532-/131477257080?hash=item1e9ca7bb78:g:280AAOSwbfZVH57H


----------



## wildlife2011

Someone recommend this amp to pair with my micro idsd. My headphones are HE-400S and 1964 A6. I just need 2nd opinion. Thanks guys!


----------



## tvnosaint

wildlife2011 said:


> Someone recommend this amp to pair with my micro idsd. My headphones are HE-400S and 1964 A6. I just need 2nd opinion. Thanks guys!


After 3 days with the H10 I can strongly recommend it. It just kinda shames my lyr, pulse, geeks, and zdac. command, detail and soundstage above all those. Plenty of power, clean sound with loads of detail and clarity while having more bass authority. With the he460.


----------



## natemact

kozic said:


> So you are talking about something like this?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-LME49720HA-LME49720-TO-99-TO-DIP8-Opamp-IC-PCB-replace-opa2604-NE5532-/131477257080?hash=item1e9ca7bb78:g:280AAOSwbfZVH57H


 

 You can go this route but the adapter isn't necessary.


----------



## natemact

natemact said:


> You can go this route but the adapter isn't necessary.


 
 This is the shape the pins take once pressed into the socket. These pins had about 1/2 their length trimmed off (but I started with 1/3)...sorry for poor image quality


----------



## Kozic

I see I have the ad823 on the way maybe I'll try the 49720 too.


----------



## bavinck

Popped in the 823s (797s went in a few days ago) . Detail retrieval has significant improved right across the spectrum. At first in though I had a bad opamp as voices seemed "grainy" or fuzzy, or distorted. After some focused listening I have come to realize I am hearing the texture of the singers voice and/or distortions filters that were put on their voices during recording. Good grief, I have never heard such detail coming out of any amp, let alone our beloved h10. I also feel extension on top and bottom has increased, much better clarity right across the spectrum. I was impressed with the 797s change, I think for my ears and setup the 823s are actually a bigger change.


----------



## bavinck

Thanks for the opamp suggestions Stuart mc, I am super excited to try out the burson's next, which I should have in a couple weeks.


----------



## jerick70

giof71 said:


> Hello everyone.
> Yesterday I replaced the standard op-amps of my H10 with a set of Burson Supreme V5 SS-Opamp. Dual + Single, a total of 4 pieces of course.
> 
> Here are some photos!
> ...


 
 Thanks for sharing your setup and your Burson install. It looks very nice.   Reped


----------



## wwmhf

They look very beautiful in the amp, hope they also sound beautifully.
  
  
 Quote:


giof71 said:


> Hello everyone.
> Yesterday I replaced the standard op-amps of my H10 with a set of Burson Supreme V5 SS-Opamp. Dual + Single, a total of 4 pieces of course.
> 
> Here are some photos!
> ...


----------



## wwmhf

This Gustard H10 sounds very good. I have had it for a few days now and it sounds better obviously than the beginning. 
  
 While it sounds quite satisfactory as it is, I am seriously considering the op-amp rolling. I am eager to know see much improvement the op-amp rolling can bring to this amp.
  
 I have read a few posts about good results with AD797/823. While I am waiting for my order of AD797s to get here, I will be grateful if any of you can share your experiences of using OPA627BP or OPA627AP in this amp because I should have some OPA627BPs somewhere in my part cabinet.


----------



## GioF71

Hello everyone, and thanks.
 I'm listening again after about 26 hours of burn in (with some old Sony MDR V300), and it seems everything has got better.
 The sound seems smoother while not less detailed, very pleasant. Will continue the burn in after this brief listening session, and allow 100 hours of burn-in as suggested before doing a complete review.
  
 Cheers


----------



## GioF71

Sorry, I used the old Sony headphone for the burn in.
The listening was made through my usual sennheiser hd 650


----------



## swannie007

natemact said:


> This is the shape the pins take once pressed into the socket. These pins had about 1/2 their length trimmed off (but I started with 1/3)...sorry for poor image quality


 
 I have just ordered a pair of these op amps but am not sure which pin goes into what hole on the female socket in the amp. Could you please explain this for us dummies unfamiliar with this procedure. Perhaps you could include a basic drawing to help as well. Many thanks.


----------



## Peter78

swannie007 said:


> I have just ordered a pair of these op amps but am not sure which pin goes into what hole on the female socket in the amp. Could you please explain this for us dummies unfamiliar with this procedure. Perhaps you could include a basic drawing to help as well. Many thanks.


----------



## jaywillin

it's been 8-10 weeks since i've gotten my h10, and now the time has come to get swabbing . before i go whole hog and spend the $$ on the burson's (which i'm sure i'll do at some point)
 i've ordered the 797/823 combo from mouser 
  
 i did get the h10 opened up yesterday, it is a thing of beauty , hard to believe it cost $300 !


----------



## swannie007

peter78 said:


>



Thank you Peter.


----------



## lalala6

Is it just me, or does anyone hear a buzzing sound in the right channel when using sensitive IEMs with the H10?
  
 Of course, I usually use full-size headphones with the H10 so it does not present much of a problem, but it slightly concerns me that my H10 may have a fault. If anyone could help verify if there's a buzzing sound in one channel when using IEMs with the H10 I would greatly appreciate it!


----------



## jerick70

jaywillin said:


> it's been 8-10 weeks since i've gotten my h10, and now the time has come to get swabbing . before i go whole hog and spend the $$ on the burson's (which i'm sure i'll do at some point)
> i've ordered the 797/823 combo from mouser
> 
> i did get the h10 opened up yesterday, it is a thing of beauty , hard to believe it cost $300 !


 

 I think you will really like the upgrade to the 797/823s.  This combo puts the H10 into a whole different league.
  
 I'm getting my Burson v5 kit and 797 BRZ set tomorrow.  WE will see how these change things up.


----------



## freak

What is 797/823 combo?
  
 This amplifier is now available on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10


----------



## wildlife2011

freak said:


> What is 797/823 combo?
> 
> This amplifier is now available on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10


 
  
 The drop is open again? Just yesterday when I go to Massdrop there are only 48 request including me.


----------



## MLegend

lalala6 said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone hear a buzzing sound in the right channel when using sensitive IEMs with the H10?
> 
> Of course, I usually use full-size headphones with the H10 so it does not present much of a problem, but it slightly concerns me that my H10 may have a fault. If anyone could help verify if there's a buzzing sound in one channel when using IEMs with the H10 I would greatly appreciate it!


 
 Yes it does produce a small buzzing with sensitive iems. My A151 which are 27ohm but sensitivity is 111db. When I tried them on the H10 I used -12 gain and still had small buzzing but I use headphones normally anyways so it's not an issue. So no man don't worry it's not the amp.


----------



## jaywillin

jerick70 said:


> I think you will really like the upgrade to the 797/823s.  This combo puts the H10 into a whole different league.
> 
> I'm getting my Burson v5 kit and 797 BRZ set tomorrow.  WE will see how these change things up.


 
  
 i'm looking forward to giving these a try, i ordered from mouser, i hope i won't be waiting too long  
  


freak said:


> What is 797/823 combo?
> 
> This amplifier is now available on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10


 
  
 797/823 refers to op-amps, it's real easy to roll op amps in and out of the h10 to tweak the sound a bit


----------



## jerick70

freak said:


> What is 797/823 combo?
> 
> This amplifier is now available on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10


 

 The 797/823 combo is swabbing (rolling) the AD797ANZ and AD823ANZ opamps into the H10.


----------



## jerick70

jaywillin said:


> i'm looking forward to giving these a try, i ordered from mouser, i hope i won't be waiting too long
> 
> 
> 797/823 refers to op-amps, it's real easy to roll op amps in and out of the h10 to tweak the sound a bit


 

 I ordered the same combo from Mouser a few weeks ago.  Their shipping was super fast.


----------



## olek

lalala6 said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone hear a buzzing sound in the right channel when using sensitive IEMs with the H10?


 
  
 Same thing, do not use my RE-600 iem's with H10 because of noticeable background noise (sound is quite nice otherwise). ER4S are fine, but their impedance is rather high, and that helps.


----------



## lalala6

mlegend said:


> Yes it does produce a small buzzing with sensitive iems. My A151 which are 27ohm but sensitivity is 111db. When I tried them on the H10 I used -12 gain and still had small buzzing but I use headphones normally anyways so it's not an issue. So no man don't worry it's not the amp.






olek said:


> Same thing, do not use my RE-600 iem's with H10 because of noticeable background noise (sound is quite nice otherwise). ER4S are fine, but their impedance is rather high, and that helps.




Thanks! That's good to know.


----------



## fritobugger

jaywillin said:


> it's been 8-10 weeks since i've gotten my h10, and now the time has come to get swabbing . before i go whole hog and spend the $$ on the burson's (which i'm sure i'll do at some point)
> i've ordered the 797/823 combo from mouser
> 
> i did get the h10 opened up yesterday, it is a thing of beauty , hard to believe it cost $300 !


 
 I am planning to order the 797/823 for Xmas. I look forward to trying them out.


----------



## jaywillin

fritobugger said:


> I am planning to order the 797/823 for Xmas. I look forward to trying them out.


 
 it cost $40 with economy shipping


----------



## jaywillin

my op-amps have shipped from mouser


----------



## jerick70

I installed my Burson kit today in my H10.  I need to let them burn in before I review them in detail.


----------



## freak

what is burson kit? is it another name for 797/823 combo?


----------



## jerick70

freak said:


> what is burson kit? is it another name for 797/823 combo?


 

 This is the v4 kit.  I purchased the v5 kit. http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-headphone-amplifier-opamp-mod/.


----------



## stuartmc

Glad to see a lot of swabbies tweaking their sound with op-amps.   As my dear departed friend Harvey "Gismo" Rosenburg would say, "there is nothing quite like 'tuning your bow' to make you live the hunt, rather than just being a hunter."  I always enjoy my tunes more when I've become part of the process, like a recording engineer at the mixing board.  Op-amps are a great way to do that.
  
 I had an email exchange with Analog Metric and they apologized for the dead dual 797BRZ module and are sending two new ones in the mail. It will be about two weeks before I get them, so meanwhile, I'm slumming it with the full Burson setup. LOL.   I've got nearly 85 hours on them and have been using my Purist Audio Enhancement disc, so I'm pretty sure there is no more burn-in changes to be had.  I will be posting my full impressions quite soon.  As I reported earlier, my listening/evaluation process for op-amps goes something like this -  I put the new op-amps in and give them a reasonable break-in period, then I listen to some familiar music and relax without being analytical. I go for the gestalt experience because I truly believe that my auditory subconscious knows more than I do. Later, I go back and analyze what I'm hearing with specific tracks for soundstage, dynamics, treble, midrange and bass.  
  
 I haven't even completed the gestalt phase, but I already know that the Bursons are doing something VERY right and dare I say it, much more right than I have heard with any other op-amp combo, including my beloved 797BRZ/823 combo.  The words that first came to mind were "natural," "holistic, ""holographic" with effortless extension at the frequency extremes and "weight" - a superb bass floor and real meat on the midrange bones.  Whew!...I'm going to be re-listening to an awful lot of favorites tonight.


----------



## swannie007

Good to hear that the Bursons appear to be worth their considerable asking price! Right now I am loving the 793/823 combo. The sound is definitely more "holographic" with details in the music that I have heretofore not heard. Re-listening to a lot of my old favourites and loving them even more. The details I am hearing now are truly amazing! Got Fleetwood Mac going in the ears as I type this and they sound so different to what I remember as there was so much of the background detail that was smeared but is now being presented in a new, clear light without being too bright and sibilant, which I hate as I have sensitive ears and sibilance tends to set off my tinnitus. Greetings to all swabbies from the "Bosun In The Bush" with special greetings to our "Captain" and thanks for the recommendations on op amps as well as some fine "ear candy". Cheers.


----------



## jerick70

I wanted to share some pictures from my install of my Burson v5 kit.  I installed this yesterday. 
  
 The install took about 10 minutes.  Items needed for the install:
  
 1) torx #8(for rear torx screws) and torx #10 (for side torx screws) screw driver. 
 2) Pair of needle nose pliers.  I used a PLLC puller but I wouldn't recommend it.
 3) Burson Supreme Sound v5 kit from http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5/.  2 Dual SS Opamps and 2 Single SS Opamps.  If you contact Burson before you buy they may give you a discount.
  
 Before the install...
  

  
 The package that the Opamps are shipped in.
  

  
 Removing the back screws with torx #8 screwdriver.
  

  
 Removing the side screws with a torx #10 screwdriver.
  
  

  
 Single SS Opamps installed.
  

  
 Dual SS Opamps installed.  The fit is a little sung for the dual opamp at the back of this pic next the the volume pot.  It has to be install at a small angle.
  



  
 I really like getting my hands dirty.  No wonder I like DIY audio so much!


----------



## jackharm

^
 Nice pictures.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Good to hear that the Bursons appear to be worth their considerable asking price! Right now I am loving the 793/823 combo. The sound is definitely more "holographic" with details in the music that I have heretofore not heard. Re-listening to a lot of my old favourites and loving them even more. The details I am hearing now are truly amazing! Got Fleetwood Mac going in the ears as I type this and they sound so different to what I remember as there was so much of the background detail that was smeared but is now being presented in a new, clear light without being too bright and sibilant, which I hate as I have sensitive ears and sibilance tends to set off my tinnitus. Greetings to all swabbies from the "Bosun In The Bush" with special greetings to our "Captain" and thanks for the recommendations on op amps as well as some fine "ear candy". Cheers.


 
  
 I have to agree on price/performance value of the 797/823 combo. When I first discovered it, I knew I had something that I could live with for a very long time.  I would encourage you to try the 797BRZ instead of the 797ANZ. You can get them pre-installed in adapters from Analog Metric and the price is very reasonable.
 The BRZ variant is very similar in character to the ANZ, but IMO provides a little more of that "holographic" mojo.  I'll be going back to the 797BRZ/823 for more direct comparisons to the Bursons.


----------



## stuartmc

> I really like getting my hands dirty.  No wonder I like DIY audio so much!


 
 I don't know, it all looks pretty clean in there to me...ha ha.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I can never get enough of this H10 porn!


----------



## jerick70

jackharm said:


> ^
> Nice pictures.


 

 Thanks jackharm.
  
 One other observation from the install.  My H10 seems to be getting much warmer with the Burson v5 installed.  Not like a class A tube amp that you can cook an egg on, but much warmer than it did when swabbing other opamps like the AD797/AD823.


----------



## jerick70

stuartmc said:


> I don't know, it all looks pretty clean in there to me...ha ha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 He He. Love H10 p0rn.


----------



## jerick70

One photo I didn't share is the final resting place of my H10.  I use it at work with my Yulong Sabre DA8 and Oppo PM-3s.


----------



## moriez

Would just one pair of Burson opamps give a worthwhile improvement? You know comparable to swapping AD797's only? To me ~$200 for all four isn't a good deal considering what a H10 goes for.


----------



## stuartmc

moriez said:


> Would just one pair of Burson opamps give a worthwhile improvement? You know comparable to swapping AD797's only? To me ~$200 for all four isn't a good deal considering what a H10 goes for.


 
 The jury is still out for me on that question.  I haven't done the evaluation of just the single op-amp Bursons or the dual op-amp ones.  My guess from previous experiments is that the final set of op-amps in the signal path (that is the single op-amp opa134 replacement) may make the most difference and are the least expensive.  Getting a set of Burson v5S for this spot isn't all that expensive. If you can't swing that, I'd get the 797BRZ's from Analog Metric.


----------



## moriez

Waiting for you to get around to some testing then stuart. Cheers.


----------



## jerick70

moriez said:


> Would just one pair of Burson opamps give a worthwhile improvement? You know comparable to swapping AD797's only? To me ~$200 for all four isn't a good deal considering what a H10 goes for.




You can answer that question for yourself. Burson offers a 30 day return on their opamps. Buy the SS v5 set along with the 797s and 823s and test them side but side.


----------



## moriez

Cool, that's worth considering. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## jackharm

Still waiting on my 797BRZ's and V5's


----------



## GioF71

Burn-in finished:
  
 MPD running for over four days...
  

  
 Burn in setup


----------



## jerick70

jackharm said:


> Still waiting on my 797BRZ's and V5's


 

 I think you will really like the change they make in your listening.


----------



## sunneebear

moriez said:


> Cool, that's worth considering. Thanks for the heads up.


 
  
 I think they still have a discount for Head-fi H10 owners.


----------



## mandrake50

If so, ask about it. I think I paid $120 fro the set. They said when they offered it that is was because I had purchased the V4 full set.
 BTW, a few people commented on the V4 raising the temperature of the H10 considerably. Burson claimed that these use less power and should run cooler. Of course, I have to think that they will add more heat than a "normal" opamp.
 Stuart. have you measured the case temp with the V5 set installed? If not, can you do that?


----------



## stuartmc

mandrake50 said:


> If so, ask about it. I think I paid $120 fro the set. They said when they offered it that is was because I had purchased the V4 full set.
> BTW, a few people commented on the V4 raising the temperature of the H10 considerably. Burson claimed that these use less power and should run cooler. Of course, I have to think that they will add more heat than a "normal" opamp.
> Stuart. have you measured the case temp with the V5 set installed? If not, can you do that?



I haven't measured the temperature formally before or after the Bursons' installation, so I can't, at the moment, tell you what the temperature difference is. Anecdotally, I think it feels warmer to the touch with the Bursons installed.


----------



## mandrake50

I would expect that it is warmer. I have the 797 ANZ and 823s in there now. I have an infrared thermometer. I will take some current tem measurements and record them. When I swap in the Burson V5 I will check again and let everyone know. I am just curious. I have always gone to great lengths to keep my electronic as cool as possible. If the difference is significant I will have to figure out a way to cool things off a bit.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> I have to agree on price/performance value of the 797/823 combo. When I first discovered it, I knew I had something that I could live with for a very long time.  I would encourage you to try the 797BRZ instead of the 797ANZ. You can get them pre-installed in adapters from Analog Metric and the price is very reasonable.
> The BRZ variant is very similar in character to the ANZ, but IMO provides a little more of that "holographic" mojo.  I'll be going back to the 797BRZ/823 for more direct comparisons to the Bursons.


 

 Hello Captain, thanks for the heads up about the 797BRZ. I think I have these as mine have a product code of 797BR on them, no Z but I think they are the correct ones. The ones I have are on adapters and were a breeze to install. I eagerly await your comparisons with the Bursons as I think the sound difference may not justify the price and I trust your opinion on these matters. Listening to my Schiit Modi/Cayin HA-2i stack at the moment, and although it is a very competent setup, it is just not in the same league as the H10/X10 combo, particularly with the latest upgrades in the H10. Variety is the spice of life though so I like to switch around a bit and listen to different gear in my arsenal.
 Cheers.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Hello Captain, thanks for the heads up about the 797BRZ. I think I have these as mine have a product code of 797BR on them, no Z but I think they are the correct ones. The ones I have are on adapters and were a breeze to install. I eagerly await your comparisons with the Bursons as I think the sound difference may not justify the price and I trust your opinion on these matters. Listening to my Schiit Modi/Cayin HA-2i stack at the moment, and although it is a very competent setup, it is just not in the same league as the H10/X10 combo, particularly with the latest upgrades in the H10. Variety is the spice of life though so I like to switch around a bit and listen to different gear in my arsenal.
> Cheers.




Yup, if they are premounted on adapters, you definitely have the 797brz's. No wonder you used the word "holographic" in your description. 

The price of the Bursons is off-putting for some mainly because they are together more than half the price of the H10. I look at it differently. I think the low price of the stock H10 gives us a tremendous opportunity to supercharge its performance and still keep the overall price close to $500. If my initial gestalt experience with the Bursons stands up to further analysis, we would have a headphone amp that I would have no problem favorably comparing to amps that cost $2000. That's what I call a stupid good deal.


----------



## swannie007

stuartmc said:


> Yup, if they are premounted on adapters, you definitely have the 797brz's. No wonder you used the word "holographic" in your description.
> 
> The price of the Bursons is off-putting for some mainly because they are together more than half the price of the H10. I look at it differently. I think the low price of the stock H10 gives us a tremendous opportunity to supercharge its performance and still keep the overall price close to $500. If my initial gestalt experience with the Bursons stands up to further analysis, we would have a headphone amp that I would have no problem favorably comparing to amps that cost $2000. That's what I call a stupid good deal.


 

 Thanks for the clarification on the 797's. I eagerly await your impressions of the Bursons. Cheers from Oz.


----------



## sling5s

I guess few of pre-ordered your Cavalli Liquid Carbon like I have.
 It will interesting to compare it with the H10. Personally, the Cavalli might be a better amp but I don't know if it will have better synergy than the H10 with my Grado GH1. 
 So far, I'm loving the H10 with my Grado GH1. So much better than the Lyr 2.
 With the Lyr 2, even with the best tubes, details got buried and bass lacking control...not to mention a slight harshness to the upper mids and treble.
 The H10 is much more detailed, cleaner, smoother, with wider soundstage and more refined amp than the Lyr 2.


----------



## jerick70

sling5s said:


> I guess few of pre-ordered your Cavalli Liquid Carbon like I have.
> It will interesting to compare it with the H10. Personally, the Cavalli might be a better amp but I don't know if it will have better synergy than the H10 with my Grado GH1.
> So far, I'm loving the H10 with my Grado GH1. So much better than the Lyr 2.
> With the Lyr 2, even with the best tubes, details got buried and bass lacking control...not to mention a slight harshness to the upper mids and treble.
> The H10 is much more detailed, cleaner, smoother, with wider soundstage and more refined amp than the Lyr 2.




I had one on order but was tired of waiting. I canceled my order and purchased the H10 and a Feliks Audio Elise.


----------



## tvnosaint

I tried to order and failed. Dr Alex said take your time. I just decided to save the money when a used deal for the h10 popped up.


----------



## wwmhf

Opening my Gustard H10 was not very easy. As jerick70 has mentioned in his post, I need 2 torx screw drivers for such a simple small amplifier. It took me a while to find the torx bit for the screw on the side. Secondly, those screws were very tight and difficult to loose, I was afraid to use too much force to get the screw or the chase damaged. Be patient and careful to open yours. 
  
 Once it was opened, I really liked what I saw inside this amp even though I saw inside pictures before. Parts are laid out nicely. It is very easy to swap the op amps. It took me less than 1 min to swap each single channel op amp, and I can probably get it done under 30 sec if I really want to. Also, it looks like that getting the whole amp board out of the chase is not a big deal. Hence, this amp has a great potential to mod.
  
 Near term project: find a good combination of op amps for my listening. I have put in 2 opa627BP. My very initial assessment is that the amp sounds more lively, smoother, music layers are more clear, more details at both ends. The sound stage also sounds wider. I am listening to it now, no complains yet compared with the original op amps. My ad797s are supposed to arrive tomorrow and it is interesting to see what a different they will bring in. I have some opa627BP mounted as dual op amps on brown dog boards. I will try them later. 
  
 Long term project: What to do? The parts used in this simple amp seems not to be junk grade except for those small red capacitors beside the op amps. There are no marks on them to identify what type and grade those capacitors are; hence, they are candidates to be swapped out. The other possible mod is to upgrade those capacitors in the single path. Do any of you there know how good those 18 capacitors in the power supply are? Is replacing them by good Panasonic ones with larger capacity a good idea? Taking 18 capacitors out will be strenuous.


----------



## manishex

I've opened up the case, now how do I take out the op amps?


----------



## normanl

manishex said:


> I've opened up the case, now how do I take out the op amps?


 
 Remove the op-amps with needle nose pliers.


----------



## swannie007

Make sure the power cord is unplugged and get a long nose pliers and VERY CAREFULLY grip the op amp on the ends(where there are no pins) and slowly lift straight up. The op amp should just gently unplug itself. It is just like a wall plug except that it has eight pins, four each side in a straight line. Just go slow and be gentle! Easy peasy! Hope this helps. Cheers.


----------



## moriez

How are the Burson boys doing? Any impressions and comparisons to stock or AD797/823 opamps to share with the world?


----------



## manishex

Thanks guys. I too want to know the burson upgrade impressions


----------



## GioF71

moriez said:


> How are the Burson boys doing? Any impressions and comparisons to stock or AD797/823 opamps to share with the world?


 
  
 Hello.
 I will not be able to make comparison with AD797/823 because I don't own those opamps.
 Anyway my impression is that the H10 greatly benefits from the Burson OP Amps V5. I will share something in the next few days 
 I am quite busy (though happily busy) these days with work, with my 3 year old little man and a new baby girl coming in a few days!


----------



## jaywillin

got a little something in the mail from mouser a little while ago  !


----------



## stuartmc

jaywillin said:


> got a little something in the mail from mouser a little while ago  !


 
 Looks like someone will be doing a little "swabbing" this weekend. Enjoy!


----------



## jaywillin

stuartmc said:


> Looks like someone will be doing a little "swabbing" this weekend. Enjoy!


 
 i should have asked permission to swab, but i took the intuitive and proceeded forth, swabbing completed,  and it was well worth it, looking forward to see things settle in
 but right off the bat, very impressed


----------



## tvnosaint

Ya'll are killing me. At least the swabbing is cheaper than rube rolling.$220 for totl. Peanuts . I'll be taking the plunge after the holidays. Unless, one of you swabbies thinks it prudent to move in stages. I'd bet there's prolly some decent prices on used 797brz sets now.


----------



## FlySweep

Fellas.. there's a number of folks who've received the V5 and rolled them into other amps.. check out this thread for impressions.  There's a plethora of very positive impressions for the opamps, regardless of amp (so far), it seems.  Some nice reading while folks are waiting for Stuart & the gang's impressions of the V5 in the H10.


----------



## wwmhf

I have tried a few combinations of op amps in my H10.
  
 Two single channel OPA627BPs improve the H10 obviously, they work well together with the 2 original dual channel 5532s well.
  
 The AD797ANZs do not bring in much improvement, especially when compared with OPA627BPs. I do not know what is wrong with them, but I just do not like how they sound in this amp so that I quickly retired them form the amp. I may try them later for a longer time. 
  
 Replacing the two 5532s by two LT1364s does change the sound characters. Music sounds more lively. But the amp in this configuration seems to sound a little too hot for me. 
 Replacing the two 5532s by four OPA627BPs mounted on 2 boards as dual channel op amps improves the sound, but not as obvious as how the OPA627BPs improve the sound as single channel
 op amps.
  
 Now, all op amps in my H10 are OPA627BPs. Music sounds sweet, smooth with details. I think I can use it in this configuration for a while. 
  
 However, this is a rather expensive mod. By checking the price on line, each OPA627BP cost more than $30. Six OPA627BPs plus mounting boards easily lead to a price of $200 making Burson's V5s an attractive alternative. Should I take the plunge for a set of Burson's V5??? This is a proposal for my Christmas gift.


----------



## genclaymore

Yea you should since your gonna be spending 200 dollars any way. Because the V5-s worked great inside of the Gustard H10.


----------



## wwmhf

Well, let me just pretend that those OPA627BPs cost nothing because I cannot even remember when I bought them. I just know I have some in my parts cabinet. 
  
 Now, the budget for those Burson V5s seems to be justified ...
  
  
  
 Quote:


genclaymore said:


> Yea you should since your gonna be spending 200 dollars any way. Because the V5-s worked great inside of the Gustard H10.


----------



## freak

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10


----------



## christian u

christian u said:


> It  a wonderful recording indeed but the video is not from the actual recording session but from the Dutch Jazz TV.
> The Thousand Shades of Blue download is recorded in front of a live audience as you can hear here;
> 
> And the sound is even better but you are probably right that this is more or less how they record;




  
  


stuartmc said:


> I like the sound of the H10 so well with the Hifiman HE-400i that I couldn't resist the urge to score the HE-560 at a nice price from a fellow head-fier.  I'll probably pass along my HE-400i at an equally nice price. They will need to go to a good home with someone who will appreciate my very careful grill and pad modifications.
> 
> I had another interesting listening session with Gustard X12 last night.  I was doing A- B comparisons to the Aune S16 and I was quite frustrated that with additional breakin, the X12 hadn't opened up that last bit that I thought it would.  Every time I switched to the S16, I was hearing a more relaxed, natural, life-like sound. This was all about soundstage and the ambience of the recording venue, because that is what I was focusing on and was the most apparent difference between the two. The Gustard was still sounding a little too forward, with somewhat flattened images and a treble that wasn't harsh, but did have a slightly overemphasized leading edge on plucked notes.  I left it alone and on continuous play for a few more hours and when I returned, I decided switch up the setup. For A-B comparisons I had the Gustard DAC sitting ontop of the H10 and my Rega Apollo-R transport perched ontop of the X12. The Gustard DAC was essentially sandwiched between two other components. The Aune S16 was sitting on the side, all by itself, with no other components above or below.  I now put the X12 by itself and the S16 went into the stack sandwich.
> 
> ...


 


> very careful grill and pad modifications.


 
 Does that really make an audible difference? Pad i understand but the grill?


----------



## manishex

With the he-400i removing the grills improves horizontal soundstage, makes treble smoother and bass more extended


----------



## stuartmc

manishex said:


> With the he-400i removing the grills improves horizontal soundstage, makes treble smoother and bass more extended


 
 Yup, I did the same with my HE-560 and the more open grill really helped.


----------



## swannie007

Hello Captain, I trust this missive finds you in good health and spirits. Do tell, what did you replace the grills on your 560's with? This sounds like an interesting mod for me to attempt as I would appreciate any improvement that I could make to my 400i's. Also, how goes the listening tests with the Burson's?


----------



## stuartmc

OK 'mates. I've completed my testing with the Bursons and have had the chance to go back and forth a few times between the Bursons and the 797BRZ/ AD823 combo. I'm pretty confident in what my ears tell me with my particular setup. As you will recall, my "gestalt" experience with both sets of Burson op-amps installed (V5S and V5D) was VERY favorable. What I had said before was:   the words that first came to mind were "natural," "holistic, ""holographic" with effortless extension at the frequency extremes and "weight" - a superb bass floor and real meat on the midrange bones.  Now that I have listened to my favorite tracks for  analyzing soundstage, dynamics, treble, midrange and bass, I can state rather empatically that my gestalt impressions were spot on.    

Let me take care of a little housekeeping first and tell you that just like with my other swabbing forays, I found that the final gain stage with the single op-amps made the more pronounced improvements.  If you are on a tight budget, I would recommend getting the V5S's first. They are less expensive than the dual op-amps, so definitely the budget way to go. Adding the V5D's was an improvement over my AD823's, but again, it was slightly less dramatic than the V5S swap. The V5D's have the same sonic signature as their single op-amp stable mates and when you use them together you get more of the goodness I will describe below.  Think of it as a continuum, or a pendulum swing, and you will get the idea that using both sets of Burson's just gives you a little more of everything.  So what is that everything?  I'm going to boil it down and get right to the heart of the matter without making you wade through boring references to my test recordings and the repetitious comments that that format tends to produce.

*The 797brz/823 combo in comparison *

This combination has been my favorite of all the conventional IC opamps I've tried.  To my ears, it excells in neutral frequency responsive, oustanding soundstage size, very focused imaging and a detailed, extended treble that is relatively grain and glare free.  When I switched back and forth with the Bursons, I was immediately struck by how this combo sounded somewhat compressed in the macro-dynamics. It just didn't hit as hard and was much less likely to startle me.  

The stage was just a little bit narrow and shallow in comparison. Not dramatically so, but enough to make me notice with each changeover.  

The treble seemed just a bit grainy and a small amount of vocal sibilance would poke through on the most difficult passages when played at louder volume. Cymbals sounded like their amalgam had more tin than brass and the natural sheen seemed to be curtailed.  

Midrange, particulary vocals and the more sonorous brass instruments sounded less full bodied and the images themselves took on a more ephemeral character because of it.  The lowest bass notes seemed like they were dialed back a few db. 

This combo of op-amps only pales in the comparison. If I hadn't heard the Burson op-amps, I wouldn't have had any of these somewhat negative comments.  Ignorance would have been bliss and I would have remained more than satisfied with them.

*The Burson V5D and V5S combo*

From the comparative description above, you know where I'm going with this.  The Bursons hit hard when the music dishes up real dynamic energy and they don't miss any of the subtle gradations in the micro to macro dynamic spectrum. 

The soundstaging is superb - wider, deeper and you are able to delineate the gradations of depth much easier than with the 797brz/823.  

Imaging is noticeably improved not only because of greater separation, but also because the spaces between the images are more black/silent than before.  

The very lowest bass notes are produced quite clearly with real authority. This "foundation" enhances everything upstream frequency-wise. The midrange sounds rich, full bodied with loads of texture.  That cymbal amalgam now has a whole lot more brass in it and the sheen and decay now sounds naturally glorious.  Come to think of it, I think everything in the midrange now sounds glorious. Brass is brassier, vocalists exude more chest register and the mighty Bosendorfer Concert Grand sounds so bell toned and, and....Bosendorfier.   

I can crank up the volume on those passages that used to make me wince and now I hear nary an offending  sibilant sound. There is excellent treble extension here that is liquid, and naturally grain free.

I have used the word "natural" quite a lot here and I think that is quite fitting for the Bursons.   These discrete bad boys just sound more like live music in a real acoustic space than any of the IC op-amps I've listened to.  They do their thing without significantly deviating from a flat frequency response.  Despite real meat on the midrange bones and an incredibly deep bass foundation, the vocalists and midrange instrumentalists aren't pushed forward in the stage.  They are just rock solid images right in the spot where they should be.  That's quite an impressive feat in my book.  

Swabbing is a lot of fun and the ultimate combination is going to depend upon your preferred personal "flavor" and of course the effects of your associated equipment.  For me, the Burson discrete op-amps are an endgame product that delivers exactly what I was looking for and in abundance.  In that regard, I find their  price/performance ratio to be more than acceptable. I'm just glad the stock H10 is so inexpensive and the Bursons don't cost twice as much as they do.  With the Bursons onboard, I now have a ~$500 amp that I'm quite sure will run circles around most anything under $1500.  

My thanks to Dennis and the boys at Burson. The Burson Supreme Sound V5's are Captain tested and Swabbie approved!


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Hello Captain, I trust this missive finds you in good health and spirits. Do tell, what did you replace the grills on your 560's with? This sounds like an interesting mod for me to attempt as I would appreciate any improvement that I could make to my 400i's. Also, how goes the listening tests with the Burson's?


 
  
 If you check the HE-560 modifications thread, you will find loads of pictures of the process and some suggestions on where to find the appropriate screen material to use. I found a wire mesh basket at Walmart that had a fairly open and light weight metal weave and I was able to trace the original grills and cut the material for an exact match.  I also found some very sheer black material at a fabric store that worked as a dust protecting grill cloth without restricting the sound in any way.  The stock grill and cloth is very dense in comparison. Take them off entirely and give the 560 a listen. You will be surprised by the difference and it will motivate you to do this simple mod.


----------



## swannie007

Ahh, my captain. Once again you come through with the goods, and, once again, it is going to cost me money! I think I shall start with the V5S's first and later on purchase the "whole enchilada" , or , more accurately, the "rest of the enchilada"! 
 Thanks also for your info on the headphone mods. I think I shall defer the mods until I am safely ensconced in my new quarters in the USA in the new year. As of late I have been using one of my old favourites, the Beyer T90's, with my Gustard stack and the combination is superb, clear and resolving without any sibilance. I gave up using the T90's as they tended towards sibilance but with the latest mods to the H10 they have a lovely synergy with the Gustard stack and I look forward to further improvements with the Bursons. Greetings and salutations from "The Bosun in The Bush".


----------



## swannie007

Ok, done. Ordered the V5S's. Now the wait starts.


----------



## wwmhf

My experience with other opamps in this H10 amp corroborates this observation of yours. 
  
 Quote:


stuartmc said:


> I found that the final gain stage with the single op-amps made the more pronounced improvements.


----------



## sling5s

Anyone interested in a new Gustard H10 at $299 PM me.


----------



## moriez

Thanks stuartmc for laying out your impressions.
  
 One question. You're saying: ''_Despite real meat on the midrange bones and an incredibly deep bass foundation, the vocalists and midrange instrumentalists aren't pushed *forward* in the stage.''_
  
 Don't you mean backward in the stage? If not, please explain.
  
 I'm still on the fence about going for the red chips but I'm closer than a few days ago. Your point about H10/Burson value got me thinking. I still don't think the respective prices check out but while I rather comfortably previously spent €100 on just one set of good BH Crack tubes approaching around €300 in total by now I wouldn't on the V5 set. Why is that? I believe one of the tricky reasons is that the expensive red ones are inside the amp. Nothing visual to confirm the upgrade seems to be part of my hesitation. I don't know. The mind works in mysterious ways. I know mine does lol.
  
 Another very surprising thing is like @olek let us know, I had a few moments this weekend where I seriously preferred the HD650 over from the H10 now with AD797's installed over the ''Cracked-out Speedball-5998 TungSol'd-on-RCA Cleartop''. Quite the pimp. I couldn't imagine that the H10 had it in him to make the Crack sound soft overall and blurry in the low end. In comparison switching to the Gustard reminded me of stretching an elastic band. Substantially tightened and textured without giving up any of the sweet HD650 flavour with plenty, more evidently sparkle up top.
  
 Very interesting to say the least and made/makes me question the need of the Bottlehead Crack


----------



## jerick70

stuartmc said:


> OK 'mates. I've completed my testing with the Bursons and have had the chance to go back and forth a few times between the Bursons and the 797BRZ/ AD823 combo. I'm pretty confident in what my ears tell me with my particular setup. As you will recall, my "gestalt" experience with both sets of Burson op-amps installed (V5S and V5D) was VERY favorable. What I had said before was:   the words that first came to mind were "natural," "holistic, ""holographic" with effortless extension at the frequency extremes and "weight" - a superb bass floor and real meat on the midrange bones.  Now that I have listened to my favorite tracks for  analyzing soundstage, dynamics, treble, midrange and bass, I can state rather empatically that my gestalt impressions were spot on.
> 
> Let me take care of a little housekeeping first and tell you that just like with my other swabbing forays, I found that the final gain stage with the single op-amps made the more pronounced improvements.  If you are on a tight budget, I would recommend getting the V5S's first. They are less expensive then the dual op-amps, so definitely the budget way to go. Adding the V5D's was an improvement over my AD823's, but again, it was slightly less dramatic than the V5S swap. The V5D's have the same sonic signature as their single op-amp stable mates and when you use them together you get more of the goodness I will describe below.  Think of it as a continuum, or a pendulum swing, and you will get the idea that using both sets of Burson's just gives you a little more of everything.  So what is that everything?  I'm going to boil it down and get right to the heart of the matter without making you wade through boring references to my test recordings and the repetitious comments that that format tends to produce.
> 
> ...


 
 Excellent impressions.  Thank you for sharing!


----------



## rdnkjdi

If you were buying either the Gustard H10 or the Audeze Deckard for a pre fazor LCD-3 (with the possibility of some day getting the hifiman he1000) which would you go with?


----------



## Kozic

So I just put in a set of ad797brz on a adapter board if I put it backwards would it work and or be harmful?
Edit; well it seems to be working fine so hopefully they are in right.


----------



## stuartmc

moriez said:


> Thanks stuartmc for laying out your impressions.
> 
> One question. You're saying: ''_Despite real meat on the midrange bones and an incredibly deep bass foundation, the vocalists and midrange instrumentalists aren't pushed *forward* in the stage.''_
> 
> Don't you mean backward in the stage? If not, please explain.


 
  
 The most fundamental auditory cue for determining distance from the recording microphone is volume level.  If a particularly frequency is louder relative to others, in our mind's eye, we generally place the producer of that frequency closer to the microphone, which is "forward in the stage,"since the plane of the microphone is our stage reference point.  In the instant case, I was talking about hearing more fulsome  upper bass and midrange sounds from the Bursons. If that was caused merely by a few db peak in the midrange frequency, the typical, or normal thing would be for those midrange producers, like vocalists, to appear "forward" in the stage. I don't hear this with the Bursons, so they are doing something besides bumping up these frequencies.
  
  


> I'm still on the fence about going for the red chips but I'm closer than a few days ago. Your point about H10/Burson value got me thinking. I still don't think the respective prices check out but while I rather comfortably previously spent €100 on just one set of good BH Crack tubes approaching around €300 in total by now I wouldn't on the V5 set. Why is that? I believe one of the tricky reasons is that the expensive red ones are inside the amp. Nothing visual to confirm the upgrade seems to be part of my hesitation. I don't know. The mind works in mysterious ways. I know mine does lol.


 
 Having been a tube guy for many years, I actually do understand this.  There is something very satisfying about seeing those beautiful glowing bottles while they are making music.  You just don't get that visual delight with op-amps and I would agree that the pleasure is worth something.  How much it's worth, I don't know.  You could always do what I do when making frequent op-amp changes - keep the lid off for a while.  The "red ones" won't be glowing, but they do take on a cool look in a dark room whilst being illuminated by the internal green smd leds.


----------



## grizzlybeast

So I got this over a lyr 2 for an ortho that I want to warm up and not enhance its upper mids/ lower treble, as well as bring out its details. 
  
 Did I do right? It hasn't arrived yet.


----------



## tvnosaint

I've not heard a lyr 2. But it stomps the lyr in those aspects and bass authority. I still love tube rolling my lyr but the H10 is in my main rig with the nm24. While the lyr softens the pulse and gives me the tuby goodness. The character of the h10 reminds me of the lyr with heerlen tubes. But more detail and energy


----------



## manishex

Because of that review I just ordered the burson set! It looks like a decent improvement over the 797anz/ 823 set. Hope I don't get charged too much for customs.


----------



## MLegend

So from reading that review should I assume these are better than the 797/823 combo if I want the end game op amps for the H10? Where would I buy them?


----------



## genclaymore

http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5/  From here, The V5-OPA-D is the dual channel one's and the V5-OPA-S are the single channel ones. Also they have a notch on them to let you know which way is which, when you install them. Make sure you put the V5-OPA-D's into the two sockets near the RCA/XLR on the rear of the H10 and the V5-OPA-S into the two op-amp sockets that are at the long side of the H10. Burson audio them self mention they reg 100hours to burn in before they shine.


----------



## grizzlybeast

Hopefully it beats the headphone out of the pulse x infinity 

Im a newb to opamps, are they hard to swap. Di you have to solder etc?


----------



## tvnosaint

I've got the vanilla pulse. The lyr beats it handily with good tubes. The h10 is better than the lyr with great tubes. Relax beast , you're gonna love this amp for the money. The pulse is a fine Dac to pair up with it I'm sure.


----------



## MLegend

Beast I think you're gonna love it when it fully breaks in, which is around 50-100hrs in my experience. I'm really interested to hear what you think of it paired with your Omni. I've been looking to get a pair after reading and hanging out in the Omni thread.


----------



## jerick70

grizzlybeast said:


> Hopefully it beats the headphone out of the pulse x infinity
> 
> Im a newb to opamps, are they hard to swap. Di you have to solder etc?


 

 No the opamps are very easy to replace.  No soldering required. 
  
 I can walk you through it if you would like.


----------



## tvnosaint

That is walk I would like to take as well.


----------



## manishex

Does breaking in require it playing music or just being on and at what volume should I leave it on?


----------



## grizzlybeast

jerick70 said:


> No the opamps are very easy to replace.  No soldering required.
> 
> I can walk you through it if you would like.



Thanks for the help and reassurance. I believe it would be best if you guys posted a quick step by step for chanigng the opamps somewhere for all to see. Then a very brief description of sound differences. If not I'll def hit you up. The gustard wont be here until mid December anyhow.  im glad I bought one!


----------



## MLegend

Yes please +1 for a walk through just to be safe.  
  
  


manishex said:


> Does breaking in require it playing music or just being on and at what volume should I leave it on?


 
 I'm not 100% on whether it REALLY matters if it requires music or just to be powered on but just to be safe I would run music through it. Well if you're just gonna leave it on all the time then I would first test where you would personally have the volume when you listen to your headphones. For my Mad Dogs I use 0 gain at 10 for night/relaxed listening and 12 o"clock for max listening volume for tidal. Any louder and it hurts.


----------



## jackharm

If my V5's don't end up going missing and arrive sometime this week I can take some step by step pictures I guess.


----------



## stuartmc

Well guys, I have to give analog metric a huge thumbs up. They took very good care of me with the replacement dual 797brz's. They even sent them express mail. If anyone wants the standard single 797brz's pre-mounted on adaptors, I wouldn't hesitate to use them. Their prices are great and their customer service is very good.

I say use them for the single ones, because the dual ones don't play nice with the H10. I got the dual ones to try instead of the AD823's and apparently they aren't an electrical equivalent. They sound horribly distorted. I suppose an EE could look at the specs and confirm that they are not equivalents and I was an idiot to try them.

No worries 'mates. I'm so pleased with the Bursons that I wasn't seriously considering a change anyway. I thought these might be a cheap alternative that would get you closer than the 823's to the dual Bursons goodness. They clearly don't.


----------



## natemact

I've read you typically want to replace a bipolar with another bipolar (5532 is bipolar)
  
 Usually safe to swap a JFET for a bipolar but not the other way around (797 is jfet)
  
 Glad everyone's enjoying their Burson's so much!


----------



## jerick70

Funny story....
  
 Since I switched out my AD797/AD823 for the Burson v5s my H10 has sounded like crap.  Yes the H10 sounded horrible with the Burson's.  I've been reading all of the positive comments about the Burson's and thinking everyone is full of it.  I wasted my money.... these are going back.
  
 Today I was totally fed up, but then it dawned on me, maybe I plugged in my DAC incorrectly to my H10.  I'm using the balanced connections, and my Yulong DA8's back connectors are laid out funny.  (NO WAY, I'D NEVER DO THAT.  I'M SUPER HEAD-FIER.  TOTALLY OUT OF THE QUESTION)  So I listened a little longer, and finally gave in.  I switched the cables and VOILA the sweetest music greeted me.
  
 Turns out it wasn't the Burson's, it was my stupidity and ego.  I feel like such a dumb *****.
  
 ROFL


----------



## PWGuy

jerick70 said:


> Funny story....
> 
> Since I switched out my AD797/AD823 for the Burson v5s my H10 has sounded like crap.  Yes the H10 sounded horrible with the Burson's.  I've been reading all of the positive comments about the Burson's and thinking everyone is full of it.  I wasted my money.... these are going back.
> 
> ...


 

 So don't hold back - what is your opinion on the sound comparison between the two sets!?


----------



## jackharm

Happens to the best of us


----------



## jerick70

pwguy said:


> So don't hold back - what is your opinion on the sound comparison between the two sets!?


 

 I've only been listening properly for a couple of hours.  But initial impressions are very positive.   
  
 I'm listening to Diana Krall's Girl In The Other Room album in DSD 64. 
  
 1) There is more air around the instruments. 
 2) The sound stage has expanded and has that "holographic" sense to it. 
 3) There is more sparkle in the treble.  But it is not painful. 
 4) And my big love is the Burson's dig more into the micro detail.  I always listen for the strike of the hammers on the piano strings in "Almost Blue" and Diane's breaths on the entire album to gage micro detail.  And it is there as clear as I've heard it on much more expensive equipment.  
 5) The Burson's are not as "warm" as the 797/823 combo, I don't think. But I haven't listened to the 797/823 combo in a while.
  
 I really think the Burson's are worth the extra cost.  They give you that much more.


----------



## jerick70

jerick70 said:


> I've only been listening properly for a couple of hours.  But initial impressions are very positive.
> 
> I'm listening to Diana Krall's Girl In The Other Room album in DSD 64.
> 
> ...


 

 I've switched back to the AD797/AD823 combo.  I've put in the AD797BRZ instead of the ARZ though.  This is my first time listening to the BRZ. 
  
 Here are my observations:
  
 1) Definitely a more laid back sound. 
 2) The sound stage is smaller.
 3) Not as much micro detail.
 4) Slower and less punchy.
 5) The bass is less plentiful.  Also bass is not as hard hitting.
  
 I'll try the AD797ANZ next and report.


----------



## wwmhf

Thanks a lot for your reports and looking forward to your next one on 797ANZ


----------



## PWGuy

Agree - it's really helpful!


----------



## jerick70

wwmhf said:


> Thanks a lot for your reports and looking forward to your next one on 797ANZ







pwguy said:


> Agree - it's really helpful!




You're very welcome. This stuff makes me tick, so I really enjoy sharing it. 

Sorry I'm not the most eloquent in my descriptions.


----------



## bavinck

OK crew. I just hooked up my new x12 to my h10. It has what appears to be a volume attenuation ability, it came default at - 9db. Using usb input. Why would I want to use this feature? I changed it to 0db, any reason why I would want to attenuate volume on a dac?


----------



## jerick70

bavinck said:


> OK crew. I just hooked up my new x12 to my h10. It has what appears to be a volume attenuation ability, it came default at - 9db. Using usb input. Why would I want to use this feature? I changed it to 0db, any reason why I would want to attenuate volume on a dac?


 
 Correct me if I'm wrong anyone....
  
 I believe it's for better component matching.


----------



## moriez

jerick70 said:


> Funny story....
> 
> Since I switched out my AD797/AD823 for the Burson v5s my H10 has sounded like crap.  Yes the H10 sounded horrible with the Burson's.  I've been reading all of the positive comments about the Burson's and thinking everyone is full of it.  I wasted my money.... these are going back.
> 
> ...


 
  
 LoL! Those exact same things happen to *ahem* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the best of us.
  
  


> 3) There is more sparkle in the treble.  But it is not painful.
> 
> I really think the *Burson's* are worth the extra cost.  They give you that much more.


 


> I've switched back to the *AD797/AD823* combo.  I've put in the AD797BRZ instead of the ARZ though.  This is my first time listening to the BRZ.
> Here are my observations:
> 4) Slower and less punchy.
> 5) The bass is less plentiful.  Also bass is not as hard hitting.


 
  
 More sparkle in the treble could mean more quantity or do you think it's at the same level but just easier to hear?
  
 Points 4 and 5 could exactly be what I'm looking for at the moment. It's greatly appreciated if you could listen and reaffirm that this really is the case to your ears.
 What's other owners opinion in this specific area?


----------



## swannie007

Just installed the Burson V5S's a few hours ago and to say that I'm impressed is an understatement! The bass has definitely ramped up, but not so as to sound overdone or unnatural, just more present and very clean and tight. Kinda like mama went to the gym and tightened up her rear end. Nice and controlled.
 The mid range is also cleaner but not sibilant. As it is at the moment, with about five hours of play, I am very happy. If it gets better with burn-in, that would just be a bonus. Not sure if I would install the dual op-amps as I think I am reaching a point of diminishing returns and would have a hard time justifying the expenditure against the small increment in performance. If I left this amp as it currently is, I would be happy for some time. Until, that is, Gustard makes a balanced amp with similar, or improved performance at a reasonable cost.
 I will leave the amp on overnight playing music and have listen in the morning before work and see if I can detect an improvement in sound quality.
 Thanks to the Captain for turning me on to this upgrade. Greetings and salutations to all SS Gustard swabbies from "The Bosun in The Bush".


----------



## jerick70

moriez said:


> LoL! Those exact same things happen to *ahem*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I think the reason there is more sparkle is because the treble is cleaner.  I'll listen closer once I swab the Burson's back in and let you know what I think.
  
 That is the great thing about the H10, you can choose what sound you want.  This amp is so responsive to opamp swabbing it's mind blowing.  The stock opamps will give you the most laid back sound out of the bunch.  Then the AD797/AD823.


----------



## jackharm

Op-amps take so long to reach Canada/be delivered. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But I have yet to give up hope!


----------



## bavinck

jackharm said:


> Op-amps take so long to reach Canada/be delivered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ya I know. I am on day 16 of waiting, Burson told me to expect about 2 weeks....Canada Post is so ridiculously slow it's embarrassing.


----------



## jackharm

Welp, it just arrived.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It does take some time though (16 business days to the Vancouver region).
  
 I'll get started on taking some pictures/swap tutorial soon.


----------



## jerick70

moriez said:


> LoL! Those exact same things happen to *ahem*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  


jerick70 said:


> I think the reason there is more sparkle is because the treble is cleaner.  I'll listen closer once I swab the Burson's back in and let you know what I think.
> 
> That is the great thing about the H10, you can choose what sound you want.  This amp is so responsive to opamp swabbing it's mind blowing.  The stock opamps will give you the most laid back sound out of the bunch.  Then the AD797/AD823.


 

 I put my Bursons back in.  Yes, cleaner treble is exactly why the treble sparkles more.  Also, it feels like the music is reproduced like as it was meant to be heard.


----------



## jerick70

jackharm said:


> Welp, it just arrived.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Congrats.  You're going to love the Bursons!  PARTY TIME! EXCELLENT!


----------



## moriez

Cool, thanks Jerick. Y'all enjoy your Bursonettes.
  
 I'm going to probably follow swannie's example V5S first and get the bang for buck in the next couple of days.


----------



## wwmhf

That is what in my mind at this moment too. 
  
 Quote:


moriez said:


> I'm going to probably follow swannie's example V5S first


----------



## jackharm

For now* here* are some raw pictures I took while installing the Burson V5's.
  
 I'll post descriptions once I get back from a lecture.


----------



## jerick70

jackharm said:


> For now* here* are some raw pictures I took while installing the Burson V5's.
> 
> I'll post descriptions once I get back from a lecture.


 
 Very nice pics.


----------



## stuartmc

swannie007 said:


> Just installed the Burson V5S's a few hours ago and to say that I'm impressed is an understatement! The bass has definitely ramped up, but not so as to sound overdone or unnatural, just more present and very clean and tight. Kinda like mama went to the gym and tightened up her rear end. Nice and controlled.
> The mid range is also cleaner but not sibilant. As it is at the moment, with about five hours of play, I am very happy. If it gets better with burn-in, that would just be a bonus. Not sure if I would install the dual op-amps as I think I am reaching a point of diminishing returns and would have a hard time justifying the expenditure against the small increment in performance. If I left this amp as it currently is, I would be happy for some time. Until, that is, Gustard makes a balanced amp with similar, or improved performance at a reasonable cost.
> I will leave the amp on overnight playing music and have listen in the morning before work and see if I can detect an improvement in sound quality.
> Thanks to the Captain for turning me on to this upgrade. Greetings and salutations to all SS Gustard swabbies from "The Bosun in The Bush".




Boson Swannie! I always enjoy hearing from you and especially when I get confirmation of my own experiences. I'm glad to hear that I have steered you in the right direction for your musical enjoyment. The V5S do work very well with the 823's. You have probably 75% of the Burson goodness working for you right now. Down the road, when you get bored or get the upgrade itch, you can always go for the other 25%.

Did I read correctly that you are moving to the States soon? I don't want to lose the appellation - Boson in the Bush. It's just too good. You will have to reside in a city here that starts with a "B", like boson from the Bronx, or some such cool alliteration.


----------



## manishex

Jackharm I see you have an extra long needle plier and a normal plier, which should I buy?


----------



## jackharm

Long needle pliers


----------



## jackharm

WHAT YOU NEED​   
 ​ TOOLS 
Screw bit set
Long nose pliers or IC puller (not shown)
Power Drill (not shown)
  
ITEMS 
Gustard H10
The Op-amps you wish to swap with. (I will be using two single and two dual Burson Supreme Sound V5 op-amp's)
  
 STEPS​  To Remove the Lid  ​ 
Unscrew the 4 top screws that hold the lid in place,
There are two on the front end (one on each side), and two in the rear near the corners.

             * You may need to use a power drill to unscrew the screws as they are a bit tight.

To lift the lid off, on the side of the Gustard H10 are ridges. Use your nails to grip and slowly lift up to take the lid off. 
 ​ Please note in the picture I redundantly removed all 8 screws located on the sides and rear of the H10. Only the top four screws are needed to be removed to take off the lid.​  To Swap the Op-Amps You can choose to swap up to two pairs of op-amps; two dual op-amps located along the rear end of the Gustard H10 (near the inputs) and/or two single op-amps located along the side of the H10.

Get your long nose pliers or IC puller and gently grip the sides of the op-amp.
 ​  

Once you are sure you have a good grip you can start to slowly wiggle and pull up. The op-amp should pop out leaving you with an empty socket. Repeat this process for the other op-amps.
 ​  

Before swapping in your newly acquired Burson V5's, make sure you know what goes where. The Burson V5-OPA-D (Dual op-amps) go in the rear, while the V5-OPA-S (Single op-amps) go along the side.
Align the half-moon indentation that is located along the opposite side of the logo on the Burson V5's with the indentation in the H10 socket (sorry for the reversed picture).
 ​  
 ​ 
Make sure the pins are aligned with the socket and gently push down until it 'snaps' in. Repeat this for the remaining op-amps.
  
 Now quickly power it up and ensure that everything is running as it should, remember to put the lid back on, and enjoy your V5'd H10!
 Now for some random shots:


----------



## grizzlybeast

:eek:

Wow thanks a bunch. Im gonna email myself this page. Too bad headfi only lets you give one thumbs up. 

Easy to do


----------



## jackharm

I am considering to drill in some ventilation holes on the lid of the H10.
  
 Do any of you guys think that there would be any detrimental effect that would come from me doing so?


----------



## tvnosaint

Thanks Jack. That takes a bit of the fear out of the process


----------



## jerick70

wwmhf said:


> Thanks a lot for your reports and looking forward to your next one on 797ANZ


 

@wwmhf I haven't forgotten about putting my thoughts down about the ANZs.  I'm just so in love with the Burson's I had to listen with them installed yesterday.  Anyway, I've installed the 797ANZ/823ANZ combo just now.  I'll listen to my favorite tracks and report later today.


----------



## jerick70

After listening to the Burson V5 combo yesterday I have a few more observations.
  
 1) Burn-in makes these so much better (and so does plugging in your cables correctly) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  When I reported earlier in the thread I only had about 10 hours on them. I have close to 25 hours on them now and they are much better.  It's like a good cheese with age.
 2) The v5s are a very good value.  After adding them to my H10 I feel like I have a much more expensive headamp on my hands.  Everyone that is thinking twice about purchasing the Bursons because of cost, think of the money you are saving on buying a much more expensive amp. ????


----------



## manishex

I ordered the bursons 4 days ago, I wasn't notified if they were dispatched so was surprised that they arrived today (Australia to uk)


----------



## genclaymore

There is a burson rep on the forums if they don't give you the tracking number, he may be able to get it for you or check up on the order to see whats going on.
  
 But yea they do ship really fast, a tleast for me Fedex man get here in the morning with the service they use. Usually the fedex man takes his time and get here when he feel like it. But it not like the DHL man who get here 8 am in the morning for their express shipping like that one time I had to wake up at 6Am just to be ready for him.


----------



## jackharm

Glad to see the Burson's arrived Mani and that people are liking the guide I wrote.
  
 Hopefully it can be of some help to anyone interested in swapping.


----------



## jerick70

wwmhf said:


> Thanks a lot for your reports and looking forward to your next one on 797ANZ


 
  
 Here's my report on the 797ANZ/823ANZ combo.  I through in Jazz at the Pawnshop in DSD128 to really hear instrument separation.  It has the best instrument separation of any recording I know of.  
  
 Compared to 797BRZ
  
 1) I like these better than the 797BRZs.
 2) They are more engaging.
 3) Less bass but not as sloppy.  It's a very small amount though.  I think the BRZs bass is a bit distorted.
 4) The sound stage seems smaller.
 5) The BRZs have more grain to them.
 6) They are more musical than the BRZ.
 7) Warmth is about the same.
  
 Compared to the Bursons
  
 1) The Bursons have these beat by a large margin.  The ANZ is the second best sounding out of all the opamps I've listened to. 
 2) The music is more pure on the Bursons.
 3) There is a slight grain to the ANZ which decreases fidelity.  Grain is absent on the Bursons.
 4) These have some 3d feel to them but it is limiting.  The Burson have a huge 3d feel to them. 
 5) The instruments have good separation. I can hear much more separation with the Bursons. 
 6) The ANZ has a "warmer" sound.
  
 Hope this helps anyone.


----------



## wwmhf

Jerick's post above is very helpful. I have decided not pursue 797BRZs and I have ordered 2 single channel Bursons. I am eager to find out how much difference between Bursons and OPA627s


----------



## jackharm

Unfortunately I may not be able to get my hands on some 797BRZ's to compare with the Bursons as my order from AnalogMetric has yet to arrive, and when I inquired about it they just said look at the tracking number which said it was delivered to an address in California.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 For now I have opened a dispute on Paypal, hopefully things will go smoothly.


----------



## jerick70

jackharm said:


> Unfortunately I may not be able to get my hands on some 797BRZ's to compare with the Bursons as my order from AnalogMetric has yet to arrive, and when I inquired about it they just said look at the tracking number which said it was delivered to an address in California.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'll be more than happy to let you borrow my 797BRZs.  PM me if you're interested.


----------



## manishex

Just from no break in, the Burson outputs pure juicy goodness, you could say the music is now dancing.
 Thanks Jackharm for the guide


----------



## jackharm

I should be fine.
  
 Thank you though for your kind offer! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 EDIT:
  
 Glad that I could be of some help Manishex


----------



## jackharm

Also I am not sure if it is just me, but do any of you other V5'ers feel like the V5's are less fatiguing on the ears (compared to stock at least)?


----------



## stuartmc

jackharm said:


> Also I am not sure if it is just me, but do any of you other V5'ers feel like the V5's are less fatiguing on the ears (compared to stock at least)?


 
 It's definitely not just you.  One of characteristics I noted was the liquid and natural extended treble and the ability to play troublesome passages at a louder volume without any annoying sibilance.


----------



## jackharm

Yea I too noticed how fluid the sound was.
  
 For me I still have some sibilance (but that is just the nature of the HE-400's) but was sorta puzzled by how while it was still a bit sibilant that I didn't really irritate me.


----------



## swannie007

Found the Bursons to be more relaxing compared to the other op amps as well. I can listen to violins now without wincing! I am still putting hours on them to break them in and they are sounding better as the hours go by. Really enjoying these op amps and very glad I bought them. Thanks Captain for your pioneering work in this field! You certainly deserve the appellation "Captain Guinea Pig". Cheers.


----------



## grizzlybeast

I wonder how close, even with the opamps rolled this can come to something like the Mojlnir 2. Any experience?


----------



## swannie007

Unfortunately I haven't heard the Moljnir so have no direct comparison data. I am sure someone on this thread has heard both and can offer an opinion. Cheers.


----------



## jaywillin

@MattTCG might have some thoughts, he's had the h10, and last time i chatted with him, he had the mjo2


----------



## jaywillin

well, i've had the 797/823 combo in for a week now, and couldn't be more pleased, and i was more than pleased with the h10 stock.
  
  
 bass is deeper, tighter and the highs seem smoother , more extended with more decay, the sound is more clear
 to me, it's like cleaning your tv screen , you don't really notice anything before you cleaned it, then clean it, and 
 you think " i really should have cleaned it sooner"
  
 oh, forgot to mention soundstage and imaging is improved also, larger soundstage, images more fleshed out, almost a 3d quality


----------



## PWGuy

I installed my Bursons last night and noticed an immediately improved sound - wider sound stage, greater instrument separation, dead silence, slightly more bass response, and increased overall energy/impact to my music.

I'm very excited to be breaking them in now! I left them running all night and will listen to them again in a few hours to gauge any further improvements. Probably going to put my ANZs and 2604APs up for sale if anyone still running the stock op-amps is interested! Just PM me.


----------



## MattTCG

jaywillin said:


> @MattTCG might have some thoughts, he's had the h10, and last time i chatted with him, he had the mjo2


 
  
 I thought the h10 was great bang for the buck. I have missed it tbh and considered re-acquiring it. That being said, the Mjo2 with nice tubes is in a completely different class IMO. Even from a single ended source use single end cable for the headphone, the mjo2 still has more to offer. Right now I'm balanced on the mjo2 with 74' Reflector NOS tubes and a nice set of IC cables from Norne. Not cheap but worth every penny each time I sit down for an hour or so to enjoy music. 
  
 I have not heard or rolled any op amps though, so please keep that in mind. The mjo2 is a special amp with it's organic tone and refined but powerful grip on the headphone driver. There are lot's of powerful amps out there, but there are much fewer powerful amps that are voiced in a way that ensures the emotional connection of the listener to the music.


----------



## tvnosaint

Just sprung for the bursons. I was very hesitant as I really enjoy the stock amps. When upgraditus hits me again I'll be ready. Maybe it will be a nice xmas gift to myself. Apparently I was very good this year.


----------



## grizzlybeast

matttcg said:


> I thought the h10 was great bang for the buck. I have missed it tbh and considered re-acquiring it. That being said, the Mjo2 with nice tubes is in a completely different class IMO. Even from a single ended source use single end cable for the headphone, the mjo2 still has more to offer. Right now I'm balanced on the mjo2 with 74' Reflector NOS tubes and a nice set of IC cables from Norne. Not cheap but worth every penny each time I sit down for an hour or so to enjoy music.
> 
> I have not heard or rolled any op amps though, so please keep that in mind. The mjo2 is a special amp with it's organic tone and refined but powerful grip on the headphone driver. There are lot's of powerful amps out there, but there are much fewer powerful amps that are voiced in a way that ensures the emotional connection of the listener to the music.



thx


----------



## PWGuy

So I want to be sure I'm breaking in the Bursons correctly.  I am feeding the H10 from the DAC with non-stop music in foobar2000, repeating a playlist.  But I have my headphones _disconnected_ from the H10 - I am still "breaking in" the op-amps regardless, correct?  Leaving my headphones connected is a luxury I cannot afford for break-in unless I get very creative to block sound coming from phones..


----------



## wwmhf

Most amps behave differently with and without loads (headphones). Hence, I believe that a pair of headphones should be in the amp during the break in. Even a pair of not so precious headphone works for this purpose. 
  
 Quote:


pwguy said:


> So I want to be sure I'm breaking in the Bursons correctly.  I am feeding the H10 from the DAC with non-stop music in foobar2000, repeating a playlist.  But I have my headphones _disconnected_ from the H10 - I am still "breaking in" the op-amps regardless, correct?  Leaving my headphones connected is a luxury I cannot afford for break-in unless I get very creative to block sound coming from phones..


----------



## jerick70

@wwmhf is correct on this. You should have a pair of headphones connected when burning in. I usually use a super cheap pair I got for free from Newegg when I built a PC a few years ago.


----------



## Walderstorn

jackharm said:


>


 
 Nice post, i've been away for some time and i just saw it and tried ebaying for the price and i just cringed lol. Cant even seem to find it in europe and overseas its expensive as hell.
  
  
 Edit - removed rest of quote to make this shorter.


----------



## PWGuy

Guys, I have some scratchyness (static) coming in my headphones and I think from the H10.  I've confirmed it's not the headphones as I get the same sound in my IEMs and I've changed music sources from one laptop to another - no change.  So it's either the DAC (X12) or the H10 amp, likely the latter.
  
 Any recommendations to alleviate?  Maybe spraying electronic cleaner on the volume "pot" or whatnot inside the case?


----------



## genclaymore

I had the same thing this morning and was hoping it wasn't my headphones, so i removed the bursons and test the one that I was using for the right channel in the lycan and it doesn't produce any static like it was doing in the gustard H10 this morning, so i tried the two pairs of OPA627BP that i put on a adapter with the AD797Brz to see if it would do it with another set of op-amps, which it isn't. It might been nothing but i won't know til i put my bursons back in. I guess for me it was just getting me to try out those  OPA627Bp's with the AD797brz that i had a hard time getting the other pair of.


----------



## stuartmc

pwguy said:


> Guys, I have some scratchyness (static) coming in my headphones and I think from the H10.  I've confirmed it's not the headphones as I get the same sound in my IEMs and I've changed music sources from one laptop to another - no change.  So it's either the DAC (X12) or the H10 amp, likely the latter.
> 
> Any recommendations to alleviate?  Maybe spraying electronic cleaner on the volume "pot" or whatnot inside the case?


 
 I haven't had any "static" problem with my Bursons, or any of the other proper op-amps I tried. I say "proper" because the dual 797brz's I tried in place of the NE5532's clearly were not electronically equivalent and made all kinds of funky sounds.  If you have ruled out other causes and are certain it is coming from the op-amps, I would suggest that perhaps you are having some contact issues with the sockets and the pins of the op-amp. I would remove the Bursons and carefully apply a suitable contact enhancer to the pins and/or the sockets themselves.  Caig's Deoxit  is relatively inexpensive and works well for this.  I use Stabilant 22 which is much more expensive and is better suited for close contacts where any conductivity bleed through would be a problem.. Remember to handle the op-amps appropriately and ground yourself before installing them, so as not to transfer any static charges to the device.


----------



## genclaymore

I sure after i put the burons back in the problem wont be there any more. So I might as well keep using the op-amps i put in so i can write down their results.Since I feel they might be my number 2 combo with the burson's being my number 1's.


----------



## PWGuy

I traced the problem to one of the V5S in the front; after spraying liberally with electronic contact cleaner, I thought I had solved it but 2 minutes into a song, there it was again.
  
 I've emailed Burson to see what the next step is..


----------



## Cousin Patty

Forgive me, but if I wanted to bypass purchasing the Burson op amps separately and installing myself etc, does it make sense to just get the Burson Soloist SL MK2? http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/soloist-sl-mk2/
  
 Call me superficial but I prefer the look of the MK2 as well.
  
 Thanks


----------



## Cousin Patty

Looking at pics of the Soloist MK2, it actually doesn't look like it has these op amps in it so guess that was a dumb question.


----------



## stuartmc

pwguy said:


> I traced the problem to one of the V5S in the front; after spraying liberally with electronic contact cleaner, I thought I had solved it but 2 minutes into a song, there it was again.
> 
> I've emailed Burson to see what the next step is..


 
 Standard spray-able electronic contact cleaners will not solve the problem if it is a mechanical contact issue within the socket. It may temporarily provide some relief from the crackling, but once the contract cleaner fully evaporates, it will probably return. You should try a contact "enhancer" like Craig Gold or Stabilant 22. These chemicals do not evaporate and will remain physically in the contact point, filling in the micro-gaps and actually enhancing the electrical contact. Standard contact cleaners only remove oxidation and corrosion and your H10 is so new that there won't be any.  The Burson guys probably have more experience with this and may suggest something else.


----------



## wwmhf

I gave AD797ANZ another try last night. Now I can definitely say OPA627BP sounds clearly better in my Gustard H10 in which the dual channel opamps are LT1364s. 

With OPA627BP, music sounds cleaner, H10 has a better control at both ends of the spectrum. 

Again, waiting for my single channel Bursons, I am eager to know how much improvement they can make over those OPA627BPs.


----------



## PWGuy

genclaymore said:


> I had the same thing this morning and was hoping it wasn't my headphones, so i removed the bursons and test the one that I was using for the right channel in the lycan and it doesn't produce any static like it was doing in the gustard H10 this morning, so i tried the two pairs of OPA627BP that i put on a adapter with the AD797Brz to see if it would do it with another set of op-amps, which it isn't. It might been nothing but i won't know til i put my bursons back in. I guess for me it was just getting me to try out those  OPA627Bp's with the AD797brz that i had a hard time getting the other pair of.




Did you get a chance to pop the Bursons back in yet?


----------



## alans

Scene varies greatly with respect to the original opamps? One of the things I like is that the Gustard.


----------



## genclaymore

pwguy said:


> Did you get a chance to pop the Bursons back in yet?


 

 not yet but i tried the one that was messing up with the lycan and it didn't cause any issues. but i will put them back in this weekend.


----------



## olek

Anybody else noticed that latest H10 drop got 127 buyers?
  
 Wow.
  
 I remember times when 20 units sold was a good drop. Gustard's reputation sure grew a lot in the last 6 months.


----------



## wwmhf

I think it will become more popular because it is a quite good amp, especially for lower impedance phones. It is also a fun amp because the amp can respond significantly to opamp swapping.  
  
  
  
 Quote:


olek said:


> Anybody else noticed that latest H10 drop got 127 buyers?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> I remember times when 20 units sold was a good drop. Gustard's reputation sure grew a lot in the last 6 months.


----------



## nickodj

Hi, does the treble more sparkle when using Burson V5 opamps in inconvenience way when using HE560?


----------



## jazzwave

wwmhf said:


> I gave AD797ANZ another try last night. Now I can definitely say OPA627BP sounds clearly better in my Gustard H10 in which the dual channel opamps are LT1364s.
> 
> With OPA627BP, music sounds cleaner, H10 has a better control at both ends of the spectrum.
> 
> Again, waiting for my single channel Bursons, I am eager to know how much improvement they can make over those OPA627BPs.


 
  
*wwmhf,*
 So, you replaced AD797ANZ with OPA627BP?


----------



## natemact

> I think it will become more popular because it is a quite good amp, especially for lower impedance phones. It is also a fun amp because the amp can respond significantly to opamp swapping.


 
 Yep, maybe the best value single-ended amp the short side of $750 going today!
  
 But I gotta come clean and admit that I'm making such a bold claim on the day after I had just packed up my H10 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It sold within the first couple of hours! I had 7 parties interested in it...so ya, very popular.
  
 I wanted to complete my balanced audio chain so I got a *Matrix HPA-3B* and through careful comparisons with the H10, I found the H10 to be the more accomplished amp for single-ended headphone cables but when ran fully balanced the Matrix is quite a bit better IMO; 3D soundstage, air, imaging, resolution, bass authority/texture, sparkling treble...it's got the H10 beat in so many ways
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This comparison was done with the same Audio Sensibility HiFiMan cables for both se and xlr and same opamps (ad797brz & lme49720ha) to keep it a level playing field. Phones were Jerg mod v1.5 HE-560's.
  
 If anyone wants to go balanced for <$500, buy a HPA-3B It's the poor man's Liquid Carbon!


----------



## wwmhf

Yes, I just had to take those AD797ANZs out and I have been listening to OPA627BPs the whole day today.
  
 Quote:


jazzwave said:


> *wwmhf,*
> So, you replaced AD797ANZ with OPA627BP?


----------



## PWGuy

Burson responded today and is replacing my problematic op-amp at no-cost to me, including shipping back to Australia.  They have a lifetime "replace old with new" warranty on these where they request you to ship the old back to them slowest shipping method possible and take a picture of the postage.  Once you email the picture of the postage to them, they will refund you the postage and send the replacement op-amp.  Great service and warranty!


----------



## jaywillin

pwguy said:


> Burson responded today and is replacing my problematic op-amp at no-cost to me, including shipping back to Australia.  They have a lifetime "replace old with new" warranty on these where they request you to ship the old back to them slowest shipping method possible and take a picture of the postage.  Once you email the picture of the postage to them, they will refund you the postage and send the replacement op-amp.  Great service and warranty!


 
 that is super, i'll be getting a set, gotta get through the holidays first


----------



## Peter78

olek said:


> Anybody else noticed that latest H10 drop got 127 buyers?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> I remember times when 20 units sold was a good drop. Gustard's reputation sure grew a lot in the last 6 months.


 
  
 The numbers displayed for completed drops are cumulative (including all drops for that item).  The H10 has been dropped quite a few times, so far.
  
 I had committed to an H10 drop a few months ago, and we ended up being short 1 participant.  So, I then bought one on eBay, and of course, it ended up dropping again like a week later (and it was successful that time).  So, I paid a little bit more for mine, but I'm really enjoying it so far.


----------



## wildlife2011

olek said:


> Anybody else noticed that latest H10 drop got 127 buyers?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> I remember times when 20 units sold was a good drop. Gustard's reputation sure grew a lot in the last 6 months.




I bought mine from the last drop (very excited for it to arrive in my front door).
 If i am correct there were only 13 purchase made, 110+ purchase were the sum of all the purchase from previous drops.


----------



## olek

Thank you for correction! This number (127) was too high and that was nagging me, now there is an explanation for it. That number is cumulative despite the wording "127 buyers made THIS drop successful" (highlight is mine). Sneaky Massdrop 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 As for me, I am enjoying my speakers awfully lot recently, after relocating amp closer to them and cutting different (thicker) cables for them. It was surprising how much difference that made. Waiting for CEntrance Reserve cables to replace DIY 12-gage wire now, curious if difference will be noticeable.
  
 And coming back from OT, should have T70 - and most importantly, HE400i in my hands soon. Should be able to finally see what is all this talk about H10 and planars. As it is now, for dynamic headphones H10 got some serious competition in my stable, lets see how it fares with planars.


----------



## stuartmc

pwguy said:


> Burson responded today and is replacing my problematic op-amp at no-cost to me, including shipping back to Australia.  They have a lifetime "replace old with new" warranty on these where they request you to ship the old back to them slowest shipping method possible and take a picture of the postage.  Once you email the picture of the postage to them, they will refund you the postage and send the replacement op-amp.  Great service and warranty!




You just don't get any better service than that. Well done Burson! If I had to go back to my other op-amps even temporarily, I'd be impatient and less than satisfied. Heck, I felt that way when I was swabbing them out for comparison purposes. Damn you Burson! Haha.


----------



## tvnosaint

Good to know. I've reached the point of wanting more from my rig. The bursons are in route and I went to hades for a tool kit for any possible scenario.


----------



## genclaymore

I getting very nice results so far with Two sets of OPA 627BP on adapters inside the dual channel sockets paired with Two AD797Brz's inside the single channel sockets. been using them for almost a week and they improved a lot. Of course I like the burson's the most, with that being my top number 1 choice. With this combo being in my number 2 choice.
  
 This is without the Gustard U12 in the chain and using the Gustard X12 own usb connection.


----------



## moriez

genclaymore said:


> I getting very nice results so far with Two sets of OPA 627BP on adapters inside the dual channel sockets paired with Two AD797Brz's inside the single channel sockets. been using them for almost a week and they improved a lot. Of course I like the burson's the most, with that being my top number 1 choice. With this combo being in my number 2 choice.


 
  
 Did you also -like @wwmhf- try single 627BP's and if so could you tell anything about the differences with the above combo?


----------



## stuartmc

natemact said:


> Yep, maybe the best value single-ended amp the short side of $750 going today!
> 
> But I gotta come clean and admit that I'm making such a bold claim on the day after I had just packed up my H10
> 
> ...


 
 Congrats on your balanced Matrix move.   I seem to recall your interest in the HPA-3B back in August, when you, like the rest of us,  were hoping for a balanced H20 to match the new X20. I guess your patience ran out.   I've been told recently that the originally proposed H20 may not make it to market due to the prototype being too big, heavy and hot running.


----------



## genclaymore

Sounds like it would had worked well for lifting weights and cooking bacon at the same time. I just bought some DT770 pro cheap for a second pair of headphones, so I curious to see how it does on the gustard H10 and the Lycan. I hope the H20 if it does come out some time next year that it affordable like the H10 was. I also hope it has op-amp sockets too, it has two headphone output's one for XLR and 6.3m and maybe a heat vent also use all the same size of screws and not two different ones. So I don't have to find two sets of hex key drivers to open it.


----------



## natemact

Ya, I kinda figured a balanced offering from Gustard may still yet be a way's away, as the months went by with no inside scoop from @ansi on the matter. I'll be back though! It's gotta come out some time in 2016.
  
 Only my opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gustard's next offering is a transportable balanced amp á la the Liquid Carbon or Matrix HPA-3B...the poor man's LQ lol
  
 Due to high restrictions Bursons are a no-go in the Matrix but the other day I was looking at the vents along the top of the HPA-3B and I started thinking, "Why not run them outside the amp? 4" is all I need") I already have some shielded 26awg occ wire, just buy some sockets and solder them up...wait, put the wires through the vents than solder them up!)
  
 Burson's will run cooler this way, EMI/RFI might be a problem but I wouldn't think so. If it is, I'll built cute lil' Faraday cages for them and their tails
  
 We're going balanced boys!! Yeeee-haaaw!!!!! Who's coming with me!?!?............(crickets chirping). Arr, bunch of single-ended scallywags ye are anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lol


----------



## stuartmc

natemact said:


> Ya, I kinda figured a balanced offering from Gustard may still yet be a way's away, as the months went by with no inside scoop from @ansi on the matter. I'll be back though! It's gotta come out some time in 2016.
> 
> Only my opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gustard's next offering is a transportable balanced amp á la the Liquid Carbon or Matrix HPA-3B...the poor man's LQ lol
> 
> ...


 
 Arrrrr....indeed! I would love to give fully balanced a try and even though I really like Gustard for price/performance, I am open to just about anything. I have a direct line of communication with Gustard mainly through Seoyoon Kim. She has www.seowon-audio.com and works closely with Gustard on their distribution.  I have expressed my desire for a balanced amp that would be the sibling of the X20. I would like the same form factor not just for aesthetics, but because the extra space would allow greater isolation of a much more beefy/regulated power supply.  Seoyoon is the one who told me about issues with the H20 prototype. She says that Gustard will have a very high quality, yet extremely affordable mini dac/amp available soon that should be great for the portable crowd.
  
 A little birdie over at Burson has told me about something new coming soon. I have no idea if that something may be a balanced amp, but the quality of their Supreme sound op-amps makes me very interested in their Soloist headphone amp.
  
 Cheers 'mate... and happy Thanksgiving to all my Stateside Swabbies!


----------



## natemact

OK consider ourselves updated now! Thanks Stuart! After owning the H10 I will forever be interested in anything conjured up by the team within the portable and desktop amp categories.
  
 As you're probably aware neither the Soloist nor Conductor use opamps; all discrete circuitry. I've heard the Soloist described as very warm, more so than the V200. It got quite a bit of accolades when it first hit the scene, but it also didn't have a lot of competition to compare it to back then either.
  
 As it's competitors kept pushing the performance target forward over the years the Soloist didn't really, "Keep up with the Jones'", but don't take my word on it, checkout some comparisons with newer amps. Well rated years ago, not so much these days.


----------



## tvnosaint

Anyone curious about the burson amps can go to the classifieds here. Over 10 available when I was looking for an amp last month.


----------



## doco

you guys think the H10 would be a good candidate to power the fostex th-x00 headphone based on specs alone?
  
 fostex th-x00 specs

Impedance: 25 ohms
Sensitivity: 94 dB/mW
Maximum input: 1,800 mW
Frequency response: 5–45,000 Hz


----------



## manishex

The he400i is harder to amp then, and the gustard drives the 400i much better than anything else I tried.


----------



## BassDigger

doco said:


> you guys think the H10 would be a good candidate to power the fostex th-x00 headphone based on specs alone?
> 
> fostex th-x00 specs
> 
> ...


 
  
 Regarding electrical compatibility, this is one of the H10's key strengths; it can drive all but the most demanding headphones, with ease. On top of that, there is the adjustable input gain (DIP) switches, which will ensure that there is a good usable volume range with different sensitivities of 'phones. You should have no problems with connecting some Fostex hps.
  
 Regarding the sound characteristics, I don't recall any comments, in this thread, about how the H10 matches with Fostex, or Denons.
 I have some Denon D2000s, but I still haven't got around to having a 'play' by connecting them to my H10. They're a very similar design, except that the quoted sensitivity is considerably higher than the Fostex 'phones. But, I believe this figure to be quite optimistic; my HFI-650s are definitely more sensitive, and they have about the same dB/w figure as the Fostex hps.
 Anyway, the sound should match well; the H10 is quite neutral, but just a bit uneven and rolled-off in the upper treble. I've read that the Fostex 'phones can be a little aggressive, in the upper registers. So, maybe they'll be a good match. It's certainly worth a try.


----------



## wwmhf

H10 can drive wider spectrum of headphones than my other amps. I thinks it will drive THX00 well.
  
 I am also very surprised by it because it works very with my 600 ohm Byer. DT800.


----------



## doco

thanks for the responses guys. i'm gonna take a wait and see approach. there's some other issues i'm concerned with about the TH-X00. gonna need more sample sizes hopefully within the next few weeks.


----------



## jackharm

Hopefully it will (read as I purchased one), if not I do have other amps to play with (NFB-15, o2/odac)
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## tvnosaint

How long did it take you guys to get your bursons? There seems to be confusion over whether mine have shipped. I'm in the us


----------



## jackharm

Canada - 16 Business days
  
 I find checking the burson v5's ebay page and looking at their estimated delivery time is a more accurate tell.


----------



## wwmhf

I ordered mine on Nov. 19, but have not hear any update from them about the shipping yet. Hope my Bursons are on their way already.
  
 Quote:


tvnosaint said:


> How long did it take you guys to get your bursons? There seems to be confusion over whether mine have shipped. I'm in the us


----------



## grizzlybeast

wwmhf said:


>


 
 where did you order from? Mine is on the way. I decided to let it go though. I need balanced connection and want a smooth sound (which is why I went for the gustard) but that was because I was selling my pulse. But noone is biting so I will just get a liquid carbon and pair it with the pulse.


----------



## wwmhf

I ordered them from Ebay too.


----------



## GioF71

Just posted a review of the Gustard H10 with the Burson V5 Op-Amp upgrade.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-stage-headphone-amplifier/reviews/14623


----------



## heliosphann

I'm using a Modi 2 Uber with my H10 and was wondering if there's a good DAC upgrade I can make without breaking the bank. Any suggestions?


----------



## Kozic

heliosphann said:


> I'm using a Modi 2 Uber with my H10 and was wondering if there's a good DAC upgrade I can make without breaking the bank. Any suggestions?



IMO save your money for new headphones. You would have to spend up around $500 to get a substantial upgrade and even then it won't give you the pop new cans would.


----------



## wildlife2011

I saw this on Bursons website http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-headphone-amplifier-opamp-mod/
 Which version of OP AMP is this? v4 or v5. planning to upgrade it even if I am still waiting for it to arrive at my door.


----------



## wwmhf

I believe those are previous versions. Please take a look at the recent post of @jerick70 here:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/3510#post_12066565
  
 Quote:


wildlife2011 said:


> I saw this on Bursons website http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-headphone-amplifier-opamp-mod/
> Which version of OP AMP is this? v4 or v5. planning to upgrade it even if I am still waiting for it to arrive at my door.


----------



## jackharm

That is v4.
  
 You want the burson v5's


----------



## tvnosaint

I think we got them on the same day. I think last Thursday. Urged on by the "only 2 left"


----------



## genclaymore

moriez said:


> Did you also -like @wwmhf- try single 627BP's and if so could you tell anything about the differences with the above combo?


 

 After using it for almost 2 weeks, also i sorry I meant the OPA627AU's  I have 4 single channel of them onto adapters and i have two Dual to single Dip-8 adapters which I installed them on. Which i put the two pair's into both dual channel sockets. Which I use Two AD797brz  one in each single channel sockets.
  
 This is how it sound to me the best i could explain it.
  
 Highs:Smooth & Clear /w Good Details ,not harsh Meds: Voice's have weight behind them Med Bass: controlled & hard hitting(Slam) Lows: Tight,Deep   Sound stage: good separation* * & 3D Spacious  sound  with a airly sound.


----------



## moriez

Ok got it!
  
 And to your ears, in what areas you described are the differences to the Bursons most prominent?


----------



## olek

heliosphann said:


> I'm using a Modi 2 Uber with my H10 and was wondering if there's a good DAC upgrade I can make without breaking the bank. Any suggestions?


 
  
 Upgrade? Yes, you can do that if you really want to, but not so sure about not breaking the bank.
  
 From my personal experience I would recommend DACmini CX and/or Grace Design m9xx. Both also have an amp in them that is quite different from Gustard, with different pros/cons set, so that would provide some variety. Both are brilliant DAC's (in my humble opinion).


----------



## Glow Fish

olek said:


> Upgrade? Yes, you can do that if you really want to, but not so sure about not breaking the bank.
> 
> From my personal experience I would recommend DACmini CX and/or Grace Design m9xx. Both also have an amp in them that is quite different from Gustard, with different pros/cons set, so that would provide some variety. Both are brilliant DAC's (in my humble opinion).




I have my H10 paired with a Gustard X9 DAC and it sounds fantastic. The X9 is $350-399 new on eBay. It has balanced XLR outputs that can utilized the balanced inputs on the H10. The higher up Gustard X12 is well regarded and costs around $500 new. There's a used one on the sale forum for less right now. I'm tempted to grab it but frankly am already happy enough with the X9.


----------



## stuartmc

giof71 said:


> Just posted a review of the Gustard H10 with the Burson V5 Op-Amp upgrade.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-stage-headphone-amplifier/reviews/14623




Nicely done 'matey. I think Burson deserves the extra exposure with these beauties.
I'm considering an article at positive-feedback exclusively on swabbing op-amps and featuring the Bursons. I never would have thought it would be as fun and efficacious as tube rolling. If I do, I will be giving plenty of shout outs to the swabbies and our collective experiences here.


----------



## slex

Gustars H10 Special Edition !


----------



## bavinck

slex said:


> Gustars H10 Special Edition !


 
 lol


----------



## swannie007

Hello "swabbies". Had a weird thing happen to me with the H10 this evening.....I have been away for a few days on my motorcycle and as a result haven't had the H10 turned on for a few days. I do, however, leave the X10 turned on all the time due to the power switch being located on the rear of the unit??? Go figure. Oh yes, I must tell you that I have recently fitted the Burson  opamps and have been enjoying the H10 immensely since this upgrade. So, I get home and unpack and decide to treat myself to an aural orgasm, or otherwise known as an "eargasm" and turn on music server computer (Mac mini) and the H10 with the Beyer T90's plugged into it and hear what sounds like a lot of static discharge through the headphones which, thankfully, I have not put on my head yet!!! So I think What! After a couple of seconds it stops and I play some music through the headphones(without them on my head) and hear a couple more of these loud discharges!? So, I turn it all off and unplug the source and plug in my Shanling DAP and proceed to power-up and play some music through the H10 with the DAP so as to eliminate the Mac mini as a possible source of the problem. Nope, still the same. So I power down again and unplug the H10 and lift the hood. Everything appears normal. I check that the Bursons are plugged in properly and all seems to be good but just to be sure I unplug them and swap the left and right channel modules and plug them back in. I close it all up and reconnect the DAP and proceed to play some music, again, without the headphones on my head. I still hear the occasional pop but they are now quite a lot less frequent. So now I reconnect the system to normal operating parameters i.e. with the U12, X10 and Mini Mac in the chain and start to play some music. No pops! So I put my headphones on to enjoy my anticipated "eargasm" and about two or three minutes into it, POP!!! Loud and in my ears! I am here to tell you that a pair of headphones have never been removed from my bonce that quickly! It was a painful experience.
 I have let the music continue to play for at least 45 minutes now with nary a pop or even a snap, or a crackle, however I am fearful to put the headphones on again for fear of a repeat ear damaging experience.
 So, after this long winded essay, I have some questions for my fellow "swabbies", namely, has anyone else had a similar experience, and if so, how did you eliminate the problem? Alternatively, does anyone have any ideas what the cause may be? Captain? Anyone?
 Any input or help in this regard would be much appreciated. Cheers from "The Bosun in The Bush".  
  
 P.S. As I was about to post this there was a loud discharge through the headphones again so now I am definitely NOT going to put them on until this problem is solved. I am going to re-insatll the old opamps and see if it happens again but, alas, I fear the problem is with the Bursons as nothing else has changed in my sound chain and I have never had ANY problems with this combo before prior to the installation of the Bursons. My ears are still ringing and I am NOT going to inflict that pain on myself again. I am VERY disappointed at the moment and as soon as I determine that the problem is with the Bursons, I will ask for a full refund of my money as this is totally unacceptable.


----------



## lalala6

heliosphann said:


> I'm using a Modi 2 Uber with my H10 and was wondering if there's a good DAC upgrade I can make without breaking the bank. Any suggestions?


 
 The SMSL M8 pairs AMAZINGLY well with the H10. The SMSL have gobs of micro detail and the H10 lets them shine through. Together they make a smooth, musical, yet incredibly revealing combo. No fatigue or harshness at all with this pairing. IMHO they pair even better than with my DACmini CX or UD-501 balanced-out. At only $150 now at Massdrop, all H10 owners should owe it to themselves to give it a try. Make sure to get the SMSL P1 power supply too if you have the budget for it, as they will make the M8 even better.
  
 While I've never paired the Modi 2 Uber with the H10 (sold it before I got the H10), I've compared the M8 and Modi on a different amp and the M8 beats it hands down.
  
 Just my two cents


----------



## jerick70

@swannie007

No, no problems here at all. My Bursons have been flawless.


----------



## PWGuy

swannie007 said:


> Hello "swabbies". Had a weird thing happen to me with the H10 this evening.....I have been away for a few days on my motorcycle and as a result haven't had the H10 turned on for a few days. I do, however, leave the X10 turned on all the time due to the power switch being located on the rear of the unit??? Go figure. Oh yes, I must tell you that I have recently fitted the Burson  opamps and have been enjoying the H10 immensely since this upgrade. So, I get home and unpack and decide to treat myself to an aural orgasm, or otherwise known as an "eargasm" and turn on music server computer (Mac mini) and the H10 with the Beyer T90's plugged into it and hear what sounds like a lot of static discharge through the headphones which, thankfully, I have not put on my head yet!!! So I think What! After a couple of seconds it stops and I play some music through the headphones(without them on my head) and hear a couple more of these loud discharges!? So, I turn it all off and unplug the source and plug in my Shanling DAP and proceed to power-up and play some music through the H10 with the DAP so as to eliminate the Mac mini as a possible source of the problem. Nope, still the same. So I power down again and unplug the H10 and lift the hood. Everything appears normal. I check that the Bursons are plugged in properly and all seems to be good but just to be sure I unplug them and swap the left and right channel modules and plug them back in. I close it all up and reconnect the DAP and proceed to play some music, again, without the headphones on my head. I still hear the occasional pop but they are now quite a lot less frequent. So now I reconnect the system to normal operating parameters i.e. with the U12, X10 and Mini Mac in the chain and start to play some music. No pops! So I put my headphones on to enjoy my anticipated "eargasm" and about two or three minutes into it, POP!!! Loud and in my ears! I am here to tell you that a pair of headphones have never been removed from my bonce that quickly! It was a painful experience.
> I have let the music continue to play for at least 45 minutes now with nary a pop or even a snap, or a crackle, however I am fearful to put the headphones on again for fear of a repeat ear damaging experience.
> So, after this long winded essay, I have some questions for my fellow "swabbies", namely, has anyone else had a similar experience, and if so, how did you eliminate the problem? Alternatively, does anyone have any ideas what the cause may be? Captain? Anyone?
> Any input or help in this regard would be much appreciated. Cheers from "The Bosun in The Bush".
> ...




Had the same issue - thought it was one of the S op-amps, so shipped it back. Turns out other exhibits same issue but to lesser degree-sending other S op-amp back to them Monday-lifetime warranty. Suggest you contact them - glad to hear I'm not the only one that has experienced this issue with the Bursons! Maybe they had a bad batch of S op-amps?


----------



## jaywillin

lalala6 said:


> The SMSL M8 pairs AMAZINGLY well with the H10. The SMSL have gobs of micro detail and the H10 lets them shine through. Together they make a smooth, musical, yet incredibly revealing combo. No fatigue or harshness at all with this pairing. IMHO they pair even better than with my DACmini CX or UD-501 balanced-out. At only $150 now at Massdrop, all H10 owners should owe it to themselves to give it a try. Make sure to get the SMSL P1 power supply too if you have the budget for it, as they will make the M8 even better.
> 
> While I've never paired the Modi 2 Uber with the H10 (sold it before I got the H10), I've compared the M8 and Modi on a different amp and the M8 beats it hands down.
> 
> Just my two cents


 
 sounds like a winner , thanks for your impressions


----------



## stuartmc

pwguy said:


> Had the same issue - thought it was one of the S op-amps, so shipped it back. Turns out other exhibits same issue but to lesser degree-sending other S op-amp back to them Monday-lifetime warranty. Suggest you contact them - glad to hear I'm not the only one that has experienced this issue with the Bursons! Maybe they had a bad batch of S op-amps?




Yep, what he said Swannie. Mine have been performing flawlessly, but it appears there may be a batch with some issues. Contact Burson and I'm sure they will take care off you.


----------



## jerick70

pwguy said:


> Had the same issue - thought it was one of the S op-amps, so shipped it back. Turns out other exhibits same issue but to lesser degree-sending other S op-amp back to them Monday-lifetime warranty. Suggest you contact them - glad to hear I'm not the only one that has experienced this issue with the Bursons! Maybe they had a bad batch of S op-amps?


 

 Hmmm.  That is a little concerning.  It's to bad because I've had excellent luck with my Bursons.  Have you tried the Bursons without the 8 pin adapter?


----------



## jackharm

No loud pops/static discharges on my end.
  
 Perhaps/hopefully it was just a lemon. Either way like many others have said, give Burson a nudge and they should be more than willing to help you out.


----------



## tvnosaint

Thanks for the info. Good to know possible issues


----------



## mandrake50

"Boson in the Bush",
  
 Mine have been fine so far. I have both the S and D installed. About 150 hours on them. Probably past the component infant mortality stage, I think. From everything I have read, Burson customer service is exemplary. If you have a bad part, let them know. I think that they will take care of you. Getting a set that works properly is a worthy goal from my experience.


----------



## swannie007

Greetings "Swabbies" and many thanks for the kind responses, I will contact Burson today and advise them of my problems and I am hopeful that this issue will be sorted out promptly. From all accounts, Burson has excellent customer service so I am optimistic that this will sorted out quickly. I will keep my fellow "swabbies" posted of any further developments. Cheers.


----------



## GioF71

My H10 is OK with the Bursons installed, let us know!


----------



## Burson Audio

Good morning guys from down under, 
  
 I understand a couple of fellow Head-Fiers had some problem with their V5 opamp. There is no need to worry, just drop us a line via our main email: info@bursonaudio.com 
  
 Our service team is ready to help. Let us know of the issue you are having and if it is a faulty unit we will replace it for you. All Burson V4 & V5 opamp is covered by lifetime warranty. Fellow DIYer should buy with confident  
  
 Happy listening 
  
 Dennis


----------



## swannie007

Good to see Denis respond so promptly with regard to this issue. This certainly bodes well for a prompt resolution. I have sent an e-mail to the quoted address and await a reply at this time. Certainly very impressive so far.
 Relative to this issue, I have removed the Bursons and reinstalled the AD797 BRZ's and I must say that the Bursons are certainly superior to my ears. They sound a lot "fuller" for want of a better description. The AD797's sound a little "tinny" by comparison with not nearly as much depth to the musical presentation. Sort of like the difference between 2D and 3D tv. I already miss my Bursons!  Cheers.
 P.S.No pops and crackles with the AD797's so source of the problem is definitely the Bursons.


----------



## jackharm

My favorite thing about the Burson V5's are how non-fatiguing they are to listen to compared to the stock op-amps.


----------



## canthearyou

My H10 will be here tomorrow! I will test it against JDS The Element, Grace m9XX. For now I will be using Meridian Director DAC. Headphones are K7XX and HE-400i.

I will eventually swap out opamps for Bursons


----------



## bavinck

canthearyou said:


> My H10 will be here tomorrow! I will test it against JDS The Element, Grace m9XX. For now I will be using Meridian Director DAC. Headphones are K7XX and HE-400i.
> 
> I will eventually swap out opamps for Bursons





400i is very nice with the h10.


----------



## BassDigger

Curses be upon you Cap'n, and may your rum turn to swill! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I was decided; some AD797BRZ (+AD823) it was gonna be. Quite affordable, they are too. But then you went all unnecessary about these damn Bursons (or is it Bosuns? No; right the first time)!!!
  
 It was the mention of more weight and improved bass that swung it. Especially as others here have concurred. Now I've got to risk even more 'awkwardness' with 'her indoors'. She, quite rightly, controls the purse strings; if I had my way we'd surely be a much worse off than we are now. But she just doesn't understand audio equipment, and how silly prices can be; how much I would have (could have) spent, before now; and how cost effective these Bosuns.....err....Bursons appear to be. Just how am I going to get her to understand?
 It's your fault, cap'n!!
  
 On an equally 'serious' note: regarding the sound characteristics of the Bursons- several people have commented suggesting that they give a kind of fuller, more listenable sound (as I understand it), that is most noticeable in improved bass and more 'body' to instruments and performers, when compared to any integrated op-amps. Have I understood this correctly?
  
 I hope so, because although it isn't something that I thought was a weakness of the H10 (I thought it was a 'phones thing), I am definitely missing some 'realism' from the lower registers; voices and instruments usually sound a bit thin, as if an acoustic guitar has no body (or a blocked sound hole); the electric guitar amp is in another room; or the singer hasn't got a chest. Maybe some bursons would improve this.
  
 But, what I know is definitely a weakness of the H10 is the upper treble; it's a bit uneven and rolled-off.
 Can someone tell me how the V5s change this, compared to any other op-amps (especially the stock ones)? Do the Bursons give more clarity, air and resolution, to the upper treble, when compared to the stock op-amps?
  
 Actually, I'm just looking at replacing the single (output) pair; it makes sense to me that these will have the most profound effect, and they're cheaper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I can start messing around with the dual op-amps, when I've grown accustomed to the new output op-amps.
  
 (BTW, I'm just joking with the curses, Cap'n; I'd never wish ill of another man's rum!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## olek

While I got my 400i just couple days ago, so they are technically still in burn in stage, I find that their 'fun' character (bump in low mids and 'playing it safe' mentality with treble) is matching H10 about as well as HD650 do - which is not well enough. Too much of good thing is just too much, and since H10 has a bit of its own 'upper bass' bump to compensate for not very deep bass extension, and has very polite (read - rolled off) treble, combining that with same sound signature of 400i results in a bit of ... 'in a cave' sound - very smooth, warm, and pretty dull (similar issues I had with its pairing with HD650 before).
 IMHO H10 is better paired with neutral/brighter headphones.
  
@BassDigger - totally agree with you on slight H10 shortcomings in sub-bass and treble, itching to know if Bursons help with those.
  
 Back to 400i, I find they pair slightly better with m9xx (deeper bass and clearer treble), are even better in treble clarity with O2 (staying immune to its slightly 'stiff' sound that can spoil its pairing with other headphones), and turn into fairly neutral and lean beast with DACMini which is drying their upper bass / lower mids a lot.
  
 As I understand, that opinion of mine is not common, especially not on this thread, but this is what my aching ears hear, and I stand by it.
  
 Apologies for not delivering on promise of in-depth comparison of H10 and O2 yet. It turned out to be more complicated than I thought.


----------



## swannie007

I must say that lately I am using my Beyer T90 headphones with the H10 a lot more as they seem to be more revealing of the finer details in the music landscape and I am using the 400i's less with the H10 as they are more "laid back" and don't give me the window into the music like the T90's, however, they can be put on your head and listened to for many hours with no fatigue. I am unable to wear the T90's as long as I can the 400i's as the T90's seem to be more "concentrated" and it is like drinking a strong beer as opposed to a not so strong one in that you can drink more of the less concentrated one. At this time, I must admit to a preference for the T90's, especially with stringed instruments, bloody brilliant! Your mileage may vary of course.


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> While I got my 400i just couple days ago, so they are technically still in burn in stage, I find that their 'fun' character (bump in low mids and 'playing it safe' mentality with treble) is matching H10 about as well as HD650 do - which is not well enough. Too much of good thing is just too much, and since H10 has a bit of its own 'upper bass' bump to compensate for not very deep bass extension, and has very polite (read - rolled off) treble, combining that with same sound signature of 400i results in a bit of ... 'in a cave' sound - very smooth, warm, and pretty dull (similar issues I had with its pairing with HD650 before).
> IMHO H10 is better paired with neutral/brighter headphones.
> 
> @BassDigger - totally agree with you on slight H10 shortcomings in sub-bass and treble, itching to know if Bursons help with those.....
> ...


 
  






 Perhaps this is something that I've missed.
  
 Without going into all the long-winded (and anecdotal) explanation, I am starting to think that maybe a lack of 'weight' is a characteristic of the H10, or (hopefully) its stock op-amps. My previous amp clearly just didn't have enough 'grunt', for the LCD2f, but the sound did have a fuller, weightier characteristic. I'd attributed its absence, with the H10, to the Gustard's vastly improved speed and control. A view that was reinforced by the comments of others, who seem to be quite happy with the H10's bass.


----------



## lalala6

Thinking of getting a HE-560, can anyone chime in on how well it pairs with the H10? Was previously using the HE-500 (which I just sold), and while the H10 can drive it very well I felt that the combo lacked air and treble extension which made it sound too dark as a result. Would the HE-560/H10 be a more synergistic pairing?

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


----------



## natemact

lalala6 said:


> Thinking of getting a HE-560, can anyone chime in on how well it pairs with the H10? Was previously using the HE-500 (which I just sold), and while the H10 can drive it very well I felt that the combo lacked air and treble extension which made it sound too dark as a result. Would the HE-560/H10 be a more synergistic pairing?
> 
> Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


 
 Ridiculously well for the money! Much has already been made of this combo if you want to use the "search this thread" link at top of page.


----------



## BassDigger

lalala6 said:


> Thinking of getting a HE-560, can anyone chime in on how well it pairs with the H10? *Was previously using the HE-500 (which I just sold), and while the H10 can drive it very well I felt that the combo lacked air and treble extension which made it sound too dark* as a result. Would the HE-560/H10 be a more synergistic pairing?
> 
> Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


 
  
 Just an observation: I'd have thought that the H10 would be the more 'guilty party', regarding any lack of treble extension. Unless you'd already upgraded the op-amps, and they're an effective fix.
 My point: a standard H10 will not be getting the clearest treble out of any headphones. I intend to find out if this is easily addressed, with an op-amp upgrade.
  
 I've not tried either, for myself, but apparently the he560 trades off bass performance for treble, when compared to the he500. (That's not something that would suit me, but) if that's what you want, you should be happy(er).


----------



## lalala6

bassdigger said:


> Just an observation: I'd have thought that the H10 would be the more 'guilty party', regarding any lack of treble extension. Unless you'd already upgraded the op-amps, and they're an effective fix.
> My point: a standard H10 will not be getting the clearest treble out of any headphones. I intend to find out if this is easily addressed, with an op-amp upgrade.
> 
> I've not tried either, for myself, but apparently the he560 trades off bass performance for treble, when compared to the he500. (That's not something that would suit me, but) if that's what you want, you should be happy(er).




Yeah I thought so too, as I could get a much airier and extended treble from the HE-500 using a Project Ember amp. Upgrading the op-amps inside the H10 to AD797/AD823 did fix things to a certain extent, but it is still a little on the warm side. I've read that the HE-560 is inherently bright and lean, so I thought the warm sounding Gustard will counteract that to produce a wonderfully neutral sound.

From what I've read the HE-560 seems to be really good with the H10, so I hope I won't go wrong with these...


----------



## BassDigger

> Originally Posted by *lalala6* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Yeah I thought so too, as* I could get a much airier and extended treble *from the HE-500 using a Project Ember amp. *Upgrading the op-amps inside the H10 to AD797/AD823 did fix things to a certain extent, but it is still a little on the warm side.* I've read that the HE-560 is inherently bright and lean, so I thought the warm sounding Gustard will counteract that to produce a wonderfully neutral sound.   From what I've read the HE-560 seems to be really good with the H10, so I hope I won't go wrong with these...


 
  





 The uncertainty of understanding other people's adjectives: When you say 'warm', I guess, from your previous writing, that you mean not enough treble detail.
  
 For me 'warm' describes too much upper bass and lower mid, or alternatively just not enough of any treble and maybe upper mids.
 Each to their own, but I just want to get as good an understanding as possible, about the different effects of the comparisons that people have made.




  
 If you have already installed some AD797 & 823s, it'll be interesting to read about how you find the treble resolution, when you've got your he560s.





 
  
 Incidentally, why did you not stick with the project ember/he500 combination?


----------



## lalala6

bassdigger said:


> :rolleyes:  The uncertainty of understanding other people's adjectives: When you say 'warm', I guess, from your previous writing, that you mean not enough treble detail.
> 
> For me 'warm' describes too much upper bass and lower mid, or alternatively just not enough of any treble and maybe upper mids.
> Each to their own, but I just want to get as good an understanding as possible, about the different effects of the comparisons that people have made.
> ...




Oh, sorry for not being clear. I have the same definition of 'warm' as you. What I meant in the initial post is that I found the stock H10 to be both warm and dark (dark meaning not enough treble quantity). The AD797/AD823 fixed the darkness but it is still slightly warm. Because all of my headphones can be considered 'warm', I find that none of them have superb synergy with H10, just good at most. So I thought that a brighter headphone like HE-560 would pair better with the H10 and give it a chance to shine.

As for why I did not stick with the HE-500/Ember combo... Well I actually sold the HE-500 on a whim and kind of regretted it lol. Hoping the HE-560 would be a complete upgrade so I wouldn't miss the HE-500 sound anymore.


----------



## BassDigger

Thanks. I guess 'dark' is a better word to describe a sound that lacks upper frequency energy.
  
 Describing the sound of the H10 is a tricky thing, especially as I've got very little to make comparisons against. TBH, although many have credited it with a slightly tube like warmth, it seems pretty neutral, to me. There's just that slightly dodgy upper treble, and (now) questionable deep bass. Maybe these are characteristics of some less well implemented tube amps, hence the comparison.
  
 I had the he400 (sold before acquiring my H10), and from what I've read, about comparisons between the he400 & 500, I think (maybe with some tweaks) an he500/H10 combination would be a keeper, especially if I hadn't already heard the treble performance of my A1 (clone) with the lcd2f. 
  
 I hope that the he560 helps you forget about those 'long lost' he500s.


----------



## lalala6

bassdigger said:


> Thanks. I guess 'dark' is a better word to describe a sound that lacks upper frequency energy.
> 
> Describing the sound of the H10 is a tricky thing, especially as I've got very little to make comparisons against. TBH, although many have credited it with a slightly tube like warmth, it seems pretty neutral, to me. There's just that slightly dodgy upper treble, and (now) questionable deep bass. Maybe these are characteristics of some less well implemented tube amps, hence the comparison.
> 
> ...


 
 Agreed, describing the sound of amps in general is tricky because everyone has a different point of reference for 'neutral'. I can see why the H10 is characterized as having a 'tube' sound, as it is one of the warmer solid state amps I've heard. The Ember with stock tube, on the other hand, is on the cooler side of neutral and sounded more solid-state to me, despite being a tube amp. Oh the irony, I have a tube-like SS amp and a SS-like tube amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks! I sure hope the HE560/H10 combo would be a keeper.


----------



## moriez

I pulled the double barrel trigger on the Bursons today and got me the full package. Sold my HD650 last week so what the heck. Gimme a taste already!


----------



## jackharm

Grats, I'm sure you'll enjoy them.


----------



## bavinck

Courtesy of Dennis at burson I am now in the v5 full boat club! 



Now onto 100hr burn in, impressions forthcoming. But I can say right away positive changes from the 797/823 configuration are immediately noticeable. This is not a small upgrade


----------



## jackharm

Nice, it may have taken some time but it'll be worth the wait


----------



## bavinck

jackharm said:


> Nice, it may have taken some time but it'll be worth the wait




That's pretty obvious right away. Looking forward to the journey.


----------



## stuartmc

bavinck said:


> Courtesy of Dennis at burson I am now in the v5 full boat club!
> 
> 
> 
> Now onto 100hr burn in, impressions forthcoming. But I can say right away positive changes from the 797/823 configuration are immediately noticeable. This is not a small upgrade


 
 Enjoy!...."the full boat club," I like it!


----------



## canthearyou

I received my H10 today. I've only put about 1hr of playtime on it but I'm already impressed. The power this thing has is immediately noticeable. It adds lots of life to the music. 

I placed my order for the single Bursons this morning.


----------



## tvnosaint

My bursons came in Friday . I wasn't here. Came again today. I got em. However I still enjoy the stock so much I think I'll wait till the fever hits me. Prolly see you next week. Bought all the tools and made a ground wire for my wrist. Which is prolly overkill as its 80 down here and no static popping on anything


----------



## swannie007

Hello fellow "swabbies". Just a quick follow up on my travails with my Bursons(singles). Dennis at Burson Audio has been exceedingly helpful and responsive to my plight and gone "above and beyond" to make me a satisfied customer.
 What can I say? Great sounding products and fantastic after-sales service! If anyone has any reservations about purchasing the Bursons, forget them and go ahead and jump into the Burson pool, you won't be sorry. A little pricey, but then all fine things in life cost more, that's just a fact Jack!
 Can't wait to get my replacements. Cheers.


----------



## moriez

^ Seconded. Relatively swift and clear response from Alex and Dennis during these past weeks. The FedEx tracking number was provided about 12 hours after ordering.
  
 Out of curiousity, can any of the current Burson owners objectively and positively say these chips outdo all other opamps combinations they've tried, in all areas?


----------



## BassDigger

moriez said:


> ...Out of curiousity, can any of the current Burson owners objectively and positively say these chips outdo all other opamps combinations they've tried, in all areas?


 
  
 Good question; I'd be very interested to read some informed opinions about that.
 I also look forward to further general impressions, especially regarding the burson's performance at the frequency extremes (highest treble and lowest bass); what differences, if any, do the V5s make there?


----------



## Idgit

How soon did you get a response? One of my duals are very scratchy-cutting in and out. I emailed info@bursonaudio.com but have yet to get a response.


----------



## jerick70

I step away for a few days and everyone is buying the Bursons. What's this world coming to? 

On a more serious note. Congrats, you'll love them.


----------



## tretneo

jerick70 said:


> I step away for a few days and everyone is buying the Bursons. What's this world coming to?
> 
> On a more serious note. Congrats, you'll love them.


 
  
 Haha no doubt. I'm still enjoying my v4 Bursons, has anyone compared v4 and v5 yet? Would love to read some impressions to see if it's worth the upgrade.


----------



## bavinck

tretneo said:


> Haha no doubt. I'm still enjoying my v4 Bursons, has anyone compared v4 and v5 yet? Would love to read some impressions to see if it's worth the upgrade.


 
 The burson v5 thread has a few comparisons of V4 vs V5 - very positive overall.


----------



## olek

swannie007 said:


> I must say that lately I am using my Beyer T90 headphones with the H10 a lot more as they seem to be more revealing of the finer details in the music landscape and I am using the 400i's less with the H10 as they are more "laid back" and don't give me the window into the music like the T90's, however, they can be put on your head and listened to for many hours with no fatigue. I am unable to wear the T90's as long as I can the 400i's as the T90's seem to be more "concentrated" and it is like drinking a strong beer as opposed to a not so strong one in that you can drink more of the less concentrated one. At this time, I must admit to a preference for the T90's, especially with stringed instruments, bloody brilliant! Your mileage may vary of course.


 
  
 Totally relate to that comment. In my case T70 are so much more revealing, and more 'realistic' sounding as well (and very close to sound of KEF LS50 speakers). Love their sound. But they are also borderline on inducing headache, which is not a good thing. Kinda like an awesome dress shoes that can leave blisters. 400i are totally different sound, nothing 'natural' about it, they are unabashedly colored, and their dynamics are weak, and they also sound good, but good in a totally different sense... very lush and comfortable sound, like ... slippers.
  
 It seems like with T70 when I reach to the volume knob, it is most often to reduce volume, and with 400i it is to increase volume.
  
 I find that Q701 has character that is somewhere in between, clear without headache, but unfortunately it lacks detail of either T70, 400i or even HD600.
  
 First world problem


----------



## bavinck

olek said:


> Totally relate to that comment. In my case T70 are so much more revealing, and more 'realistic' sounding as well (and very close to sound of KEF LS50 speakers). Love their sound. But they are also borderline on inducing headache, which is not a good thing. Kinda like an awesome dress shoes that can leave blisters. 400i are totally different sound, nothing 'natural' about it, they are unabashedly colored, and their dynamics are weak, and they also sound good, but good in a totally different sense... very lush and comfortable sound, like ... slippers.
> 
> It seems like with T70 when I reach to the volume knob, it is most often to reduce volume, and with 400i it is to increase volume.
> 
> ...




You are the first I have seen to described the 400i as coloured. I do not find them coloured at all, but rather pretty neutral and I do find them very natural in tone and timbre,especially with piano.


----------



## olek

I guess it just proves that everybody's idea about neutrality is subjective 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Mine is no exception.
  
 The way I hear it, 400i have beautiful, lush mids (especially low to ... err... middle mids) and they (probably, wisely) showcase them, not allowing sub-bass too much prominence and rolling treble off fairly early, a-la HD650 - with some remnants of shimmering up high. Many people describe HD650 as neutral as well, but it was very coloured to me.
  
 Rumors are that 560 is a neutral version of 400i (with other improvements in sound).
  
 As for me, I am still searching for my holy-grail-mid-fi-neutral-headphone. Two of those that are most neutral (to me) in their frequency response - Q701 and DT880 - unfortunately are also fairly low in detail retrieval. More detailed phones like HD600, HE400i and T70 are not quite neutral to me, with HD600 probably the closest (if their treble was just a little stronger and mid-bass a bit tighter they would be about perfect). Maybe HD700 is my answer??? Who knows.
  
 Coming back from OT: I could also see how for anybody classifying 400i as neutral, H10 would fall into neutral category as well.


----------



## Beamharit

I'm using Burson op-amp V4 on H10,with X12, I wonder if it worth upgrading to V5?


----------



## jerick70

olek said:


> I guess it just proves that everybody's idea about neutrality is subjective
> Mine is no exception.
> 
> The way I hear it, 400i have beautiful, lush mids (especially low to ... err... middle mids) and they (probably, wisely) showcase them, not allowing sub-bass too much prominence and rolling treble off fairly early, a-la HD650 - with some remnants of shimmering up high. Many people describe HD650 as neutral as well, but it was very coloured to me.
> ...




I was in the same boat as you a few months ago. Looking for a better headphone. I owned the HE 560 then and they were not the answer for me. I was in a local HiFi store and listened to the entire Audeze line. I fell in love with the LCD 2s. Honestly from the descriptions and reviews of the LCD 2 it was the last on my list. I've learned in this hobby that you won't know until you listen with your own ears if a headphone is right for you. I sold the HE 560 and my Mr Speakers Alpha Dogs and can't be happier. The only issue with the Audezes is the weight. I put a leather strap on my LCD 2s and they are much better, but still heavy. I'm willing to deal with it for the incredible sound.


----------



## bavinck

olek said:


> I guess it just proves that everybody's idea about neutrality is subjective
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ya, what exactly is this thing called _neutral _anyway??
  
 I do find the 400i pretty darn near neutral to my ears  I do not find the h10 neutral stock, but I would say it is pretty close with the v5 opamps.


----------



## olek

That is the problem, I have no idea how H10 sounds with v5 upgrade. It definitely sounds more neutral with AD797, but still not there.
  
 Although for me currently main reason for H10 staying OFF most of the time those days is not neutrality, but ... oh man, I will be sorry (and sore) for saying this... its lack of detail compared with m9xx. Even O2 wins on details, at least when paired with HD600 or T70 and fed by very good interconnect. 400i distinctly prefers more powerful amps, like m9xx and H10, and is not fond of O2. And smoothness of 400i when well amped makes them a keeper even if do not consider them most neutral to my taste.


----------



## jerick70

beamharit said:


> I'm using Burson op-amp V4 on H10,with X12, I wonder if it worth upgrading to V5?




There are a pair of the single v5 Bursons on the for sale forum. Buy them and try them out.


----------



## BassDigger

olek said:


> That is the problem, I have no idea how H10 sounds with v5 upgrade. It definitely sounds more neutral with AD797, but still not there.
> 
> Although for me currently main reason for H10 staying OFF most of the time those days is not neutrality, but ... oh man, I will be sorry (and sore) for saying this... its lack of detail compared with m9xx. Even O2 wins on details,....


 
  
 I guess that 'neutral' is a word best kept as a general sort of overall description. I think that more detailed descriptions and (best of all) examples of what the listener expects to hear, are better, to get a better understanding of what the commenter means; adjectives can be too general, vague and misunderstood.
  
 I have no experience with any op-amp alternatives. I too want better extended treble resolution from the H10. I find it tends to slightly exaggerate the higher mid treble, but then noticeably roll-off at the highest extremes.
  
 Not enough, by the looks of it, but how much difference did you find that the AD797 makes, in this regard?


----------



## moriez

idgit said:


> How soon did you get a response? One of my duals are very scratchy-cutting in and out. I emailed info@bursonaudio.com but have yet to get a response.


 
  
 I don't think it's been longer than 24 hours each and every time.


----------



## olek

bassdigger said:


> Not enough, by the looks of it, but how much difference did you find that the AD797 makes, in this regard?


 
  
 Err... can't say for sure. At a time I was primarily using HD600, and its veil combined with my severely reduced hearing of treble probably made me not very sensitive to treble changes. Most of differences I noticed were in tightening previously slightly 'smeared' upper bass and getting a bit more bass extension, along with better 'focusing' across the board. It was a really good change, but my tastes and ability to discern sound are evolving, and H10 is falling behind a bit now. Maybe it is cables I am using for it, who knows.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote:


olek said:


> Err... can't say for sure. At a time I was primarily using HD600, and its veil combined with my severely reduced hearing of treble probably made me not very sensitive to treble changes. Most of differences I noticed were in tightening previously slightly 'smeared' upper bass and getting a bit more bass extension, along with better 'focusing' across the board. It was a really good change, but my tastes and ability to discern sound are evolving, and H10 is falling behind a bit now. Maybe it is cables I am using for it, who knows.


 
 I have tried many op-amps and you might like these as you might be able to get the type of sound that your looking for or something that you like. These results are from my notes as I tried many op-amps and wrote it down. the OPA627AU's I mentioned are 4 single channel  op-amps on Two dual to mono adapters, But they can be found done in dual's with out the use a adapter. The only thing is the results could be different to you do to your ears and source.
  
 Two Paiir's OPA627AU + AD797brz = Highs:Smooth & Clear /w Good Details ,not harsh Meds: Voice's have weight behind them Med Bass: controlled & hard hitting(Slam) Lows: Tight,Deep   Sound stage: good  separation & 3D Spacious  sound  with a airly sound
  
  
 LT1489+AD797brz =   Smooth Detailed airly Highs with Slight harsh,Accurate clear Detailed Mids with Slight impact ,Wide and Big 3Dish Sound stage with Tight Lows
  
  
 LT1355+AD797 Brz = Very Detailed Highs that are bright,Mids that are Full sounding that are detailed,Tight Lows 3Dish medium Sound stage
  
 LT1489+LME49990 = Clear and clean Highs tad Detailed,Neutral and Accurate mids, Tight Lows,  over all Neutral Sound
  
 LT1124+LT1357= Detailed Highs,Neutral Mids, with Tight Lows Neutral Sound stage


----------



## DivergeUnify

Can someone characterize this amp with default opamps versus the magni?


----------



## wwmhf

Thanks for sharing these experiences. You comments are persuading me to get two AD797brz. I tried Two Paiir's OPA627BP + AD797ANZ, but I did not like this combination. 
  
 I also tried Two Pair's OPA627BP +  OPA627BP. It sounded good to me, but a little too spicy. 
 My present configuration is LT1364 + OPA627BP, I think I can live with them until my single channel Bersons eventually get here.
  
  
 Quote:


genclaymore said:


> Quote:
> I have tried many op-amps and you might like these as you might be able to get the type of sound that your looking for or something that you like. These results are from my notes as I tried many op-amps and wrote it down. the OPA627AU's I mentioned are 4 single channel  op-amps on Two dual to mono adapters, But they can be found done in dual's with out the use a adapter. The only thing is the results could be different to you do to your ears and source.
> 
> Two Paiir's OPA627AU + AD797brz = Highs:Smooth & Clear /w Good Details ,not harsh Meds: Voice's have weight behind them Med Bass: controlled & hard hitting(Slam) Lows: Tight,Deep   Sound stage: good  separation & 3D Spacious  sound  with a airly sound
> ...


----------



## mandrake50

beamharit said:


> I'm using Burson op-amp V4 on H10,with X12, I wonder if it worth upgrading to V5?


 
 If you do, ask them about the upgrade deal for people that own the V4 units. It made the V5 quite a nice deal for me.
 I never got around to installing the V4 bursons, so I can't compare for you. I like the V5 quite a bit though.


----------



## mandrake50

olek said:


> Err... can't say for sure. At a time I was primarily using HD600, and its veil combined with my severely reduced hearing of treble probably made me not very sensitive to treble changes. Most of differences I noticed were in tightening previously slightly 'smeared' upper bass and getting a bit more bass extension, along with better 'focusing' across the board. It was a really good change, but my tastes and ability to discern sound are evolving, and H10 is falling behind a bit now. Maybe it is cables I am using for it, who knows.


 
 Hold on to your wallet. It sounds like you are entering the "I have to keep upgrading because I am never quite satisfied" stage....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I am reading comments about the H10 having uneven treble and how it lacks bass extension. This is curious because I don't hear any of that. Recently I have been comparing it with the HPA in the Pulse Infinity. Especially with the V5 Bursons installed, the H10 wins hands down... for me. BTW, I have been listening using mostly my HE 560. Maybe the speed and the slight bump in upper midrange in the 560 help some of the things others have commented on with the H10, but I find it pretty neutral with maybe a hint of warmth. Extension on both ends is very satisfying. When a cymbal shimmers, that is the way it is played. Piano is natural sounding as are strings on everything from acoustic guitar to violin. I will have to listen some more with these specifics in mind, but without doing that I have just happily listened without experiencing any of the things folks have mentioned lately.


----------



## olek

My wallet appreciates your advice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Part of trouble is, I know what sound I want, it is just hard to describe in words. And I do get that sound from m9xx, only trouble is that it does not have inputs for the amp (only dac outputs), so I can not feed my turntable into it. That is the only reason why I am even holding on to H10 - in hopes that I can get its sound closer to m9xx built in amp.
  
 As for the sound... I have this weird CD titled "New Directions / Enviromusic / The golden Desert", that was actually recorded by Stephen Cohen - some very amazing guitar music with great enviro-noise. Had that CD for last 15 years, never suspected that it was so nicely recorded - one of best recordings I ever heard, no matter that it is just lowly redbook. Background is filled with sound of birds squawking in the distance. On H10, it sounds like a very good recording of birds. On m9xx or even O2 (just not with 400i) it feels like if I turn my head, I will see that darn bird. Same with the sound of a twig/branch breaking in the distance. With H10 it sounds like a good recording of a background noise that gets in the way of music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 With m9xx it makes me feel 'startled' and makes me want to look in direction of that noise, wondering if I will see something dangerous there. And as far as music goes, I can hear minor nuances in plucking that get lost in H10 warmth and smoothness.
  
 I know that I am being very vague here, it just that I do not know how to describe what I hear.


----------



## swannie007

Just got my replacement V5's from Burson Audio and BAM!! Instantly better than the AD797 BRZ's. Sounds so much more like "Live" music. Hard to describe but I'm very happy! Thanks to Dennis at Burson Audio for his sterling customer service and VERY quick response to my problem. Kudos to you and your customer service department, I wish more companies had customer service like this( I'm looking at you iRiver!) as it is exemplary! Cheers.


----------



## jazzwave

swannie007 said:


> Just got my replacement V5's from Burson Audio and BAM!! Instantly better than the AD797 BRZ's. Sounds so much more like "Live" music. Hard to describe but I'm very happy! Thanks to Dennis at Burson Audio for his sterling customer service and VERY quick response to my problem. Kudos to you and your customer service department, I wish more companies had customer service like this( I'm looking at you iRiver!) as it is exemplary! Cheers.


 
  
 swannie007,
 Can you share the picture  of inside your amp with  Burson V5 installed
  
 thanks


----------



## bavinck

jazzwave said:


> swannie007,
> Can you share the picture  of inside your amp with  Burson V5 installed
> 
> thanks




Look up, I posted one a couple days ago.


----------



## jazzwave

bavinck said:


> Look up, I posted one a couple days ago.


 
  
 Noted,
  
 thanks


----------



## BassDigger

Quotes: 





olek said:


> That is the problem, I have no idea how H10 sounds with v5 upgrade. It definitely sounds more neutral with AD797, but still not there.
> 
> Although for me currently main reason for H10 staying OFF most of the time those days is ....* lack of detail compared with* *m9xx. Even O2 wins on detail*s, at least when paired with HD600 or T70 and fed by very good interconnect. ...


 


olek said:


> ... *H10 is falling behind a bit now*. Maybe it is cables I am using for it, who knows.


 


olek said:


> ....Part of trouble is, I know what sound I want, it is just hard to describe in words. *And I do get that sound from m9xx, only trouble is that it does not have inputs for the amp (only dac outputs), so I can not feed my turntable into it. That is the only reason why I am even holding on to H10 - in hopes that I can get its sound closer to m9xx built in amp.*
> 
> As for the sound... I have this weird CD titled "New Directions / Enviromusic / The golden Desert", that was actually recorded by Stephen Cohen - some very amazing guitar music with great enviro-noise. Had that CD for last 15 years, never suspected that it was so nicely recorded - one of best recordings I ever heard, no matter that it is just lowly redbook. Background is filled with sound of birds squawking in the distance. *On H10, it sounds like a very good recording of birds. On m9xx or even O2 (just not with 400i) it feels like if I turn my head, I will see that darn bird. Same with the sound of a twig/branch breaking in the distance. With H10 it sounds like a good recording of a background noise that gets in the way of music
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm sorry for the deluge of quotes, but please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't both the m9xx and O2 have their own dacs (and little in the way of connections)? (I only know this, 'cos i just 'googled' them). 
  
 If so, this would mean that it's hard (very!) to do a direct comparison of just their amp sections. Correct? If this so, there is the possibility that perhaps it's the sound of these components dac sections, that you are liking.
  
 Have you tried 'daisy-chaining' and feeding the H10 from either of these preferred detail sources (m9xx or O2)? What people have previously called "double-amping". In other words, using the m9xx/O2 as the dac, and H10 as the amp.
 This will give you a very clear indication of how the H10 is changing the sound; if it is hoovering up those details that, you know for sure, the m9xx/o2 is reproducing.
  
 You may not have considered this to be a worthwhile test, as you will probably consider your standalone dac (that you normally use to feed the H10) to be superior, therefore (theoretically) giving the H10 an advantage. But things are not always as they seem (or should be), and the H10's input compatibility was a subject of much discussion, not so long ago. The dac/amp combis will surely have a solid enough output, to overcome this possible issue.
  
 BTW: There's nothing wrong with redbook (compared to other formats).


----------



## BassDigger

genclaymore said:


> Quote:
> I have tried many op-amps and you might like these as you might be able to get the type of sound that your looking for or something that you like. These results are from my notes as I tried many op-amps and wrote it down. the OPA627AU's I mentioned are 4 single channel  op-amps on Two dual to mono adapters, But they can be found done in dual's with out the use a adapter. The only thing is the results could be different to you do to your ears and source.
> 
> Two Paiir's OPA627AU + AD797brz = Highs:Smooth & Clear /w Good Details ,not harsh Meds: Voice's have weight behind them Med Bass: controlled & hard hitting(Slam) Lows: Tight,Deep   Sound stage: good  separation & 3D Spacious  sound  with a airly sound
> ...


 
  
 My comment may appear to suggest that your input isn't appreciated. This would be wrong; I think that the number of combinations you've included is impressive, and the layout (op-amp listing, with brief notes) is both clear and concise. Such a list is of great value, in this discussion. Your effort *is *appreciated!
  
 But...... maybe........it's a little too concise (or brief).
 Maybe this really is what you meant to describe, but as I go from one set to another (and I'm focusing on the frequency extremes), I'm just reading a similar description, for each set; particularly regarding the treble.
 I know that you have previously posted more detailed information, from your notes. But i think what would really help me is to know your preferences, in a few categories; how would you rate one set, compared to another, for different aspects of listening? And how does each set compare to the stock op-amps?
  
 These are just my thoughts; as i've said before, i have difficulty with adjectives. What would add another dimension are some comparisons. If you have the time....


----------



## jazzwave

Ok, due to tight budget I will  order Burson V5 single to replace my AD797AN.
  
 From eB*y, please confirm these  what I need :
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/V5-Single-SS-discrete-Opamp-x-2-beat-OPA627-AD811-AD844-OPA604-AD8610-AD797-LME-/111830956085?hash=item1a09a4f835:gzoAAOSwWnFWChi9.
  

  
  
 Another question, what mod need to be requested to seller to make these opamps can sitting properly on existing socket?
  
 ~ron~


----------



## BassDigger

mandrake50 said:


> ...I am reading comments about the H10 having uneven treble and how it lacks bass extension. This is curious because I don't hear any of that. Recently I have been comparing it with the HPA in the Pulse Infinity. Especially with the V5 Bursons installed, the H10 wins hands down... ... I find it pretty neutral with maybe a hint of warmth. Extension on both ends is very satisfying. When a cymbal shimmers, that is the way it is played. Piano is natural sounding as are strings on everything from acoustic guitar to violin. I will have to listen some more with these specifics in mind, but without doing that I have just happily listened without experiencing any of the things folks have mentioned lately.


 


swannie007 said:


> Just got my replacement V5's from Burson Audio and BAM!! Instantly better than the AD797 BRZ's. Sounds so much more like "Live" music. Hard to describe but I'm very happy! ...


 
  
 I'm glad to read that people are happy with what they're hearing! I don't doubt that the V5s improve the overall sound. I'm very close to 'pulling the trigger'.
  
 But despite this, I'd still be frustrated if I were to purchase some, and still have what I consider to be an issue with the H10: is there anyone who has found the standard H10 to lack detail at the treble extremes, but a change of op-amp (particularly the Bursons) has opened up the extension, air and resolution for the highest frequencies, and created proper treble clarity?
  
 Can anyone say, definitively, if the Bursons improve (fix) the H10's treble resolution?


----------



## swannie007

Jazzwave, those are what you need. No mods necessary, just unplug the old opamps and plug in the V5's. Just be sure to get the correct orientation when you plug them in. There are comprehensive notes in this thread that will guide you. You are gonna love em.Cheers.


----------



## slex

jazzwave said:


> Ok, due to tight budget I will  order Burson V5 single to replace my AD797AN.
> 
> From eB*y, please confirm these  what I need :
> 
> ...


 

 I progold it !


----------



## jazzwave

swannie007 said:


> Jazzwave, those are what you need. No mods necessary, just unplug the old opamps and plug in the V5's. Just be sure to get the correct orientation when you plug them in. There are comprehensive notes in this thread that will guide you. You are gonna love em.Cheers.


 
  
 Order placed...


----------



## swannie007

I am sure you will enjoy them. Cheers.


----------



## GioF71

swannie007 said:


> Just got my replacement V5's from Burson Audio and BAM!! Instantly better than the AD797 BRZ's. Sounds so much more like "Live" music. Hard to describe but I'm very happy! Thanks to Dennis at Burson Audio for his sterling customer service and VERY quick response to my problem. Kudos to you and your customer service department, I wish more companies had customer service like this( I'm looking at you iRiver!) as it is exemplary! Cheers.




As a Burson user, this is very good news. Excellent and super fast support!


----------



## slex

Yeah kudos to burson, i hope there will not be a V6 version coming soon


----------



## wwmhf

I do not know what Bursons will do yet because I have not received mine. However, replacing the original single channel opmaps by OPA627BPs does obviously improve those aspects in the high mentioned by your post. 
  
 Quote:


bassdigger said:


> I'm glad to read that people are happy with what they're hearing! I don't doubt that the V5s improve the overall sound. I'm very close to 'pulling the trigger'.
> 
> But despite this, I'd still be frustrated if I were to purchase some, and still have what I consider to be an issue with the H10: is there anyone who has found the standard H10 to lack detail at the treble extremes, but a change of op-amp (particularly the Bursons) has opened up the extension, air and resolution for the highest frequencies, and created proper treble clarity?
> 
> Can anyone say, definitively, if the Bursons improve (fix) the H10's treble resolution?


----------



## mmlogic

MetrumOctave+H10 is clearly one rank above mX900, but m9XX+H10 is horrible, larger soundstage better bass but very thin and dry.
 My opinion:
 When pairing with K7XX: MetrumOctave+H10 > m9XX > m9XX+ProjectSunriseIII > m9XX+H10
 It's all about synergy.


----------



## BassDigger

> I do not know what Bursons will do yet because I have not received mine. However, replacing the original single channel opmaps by OPA627BPs does obviously improve those aspects in the high mentioned by your post.


 
  
 Yeah, thinking back, I'm sure that others have also mentioned improvements in treble clarity, from various alternative op-amps. I guess if those who have switched, from 627/797 etc, to the bursons had noticed any loss of (or an equivalent of a return to stock) treble, they'd have said so.
  
 I look forward to reading your impressions, when you get yours.


----------



## slex

mmlogic said:


> MetrumOctave+H10 is clearly one rank above mX900, but m9XX+H10 is horrible, larger soundstage better bass but very thin and dry.
> My opinion:
> When pairing with K7XX: MetrumOctave+H10 > m9XX > m9XX+ProjectSunriseIII > m9XX+H10
> It's all about synergy.




My pairing of H10 & M9xx compare to standalone m9xx is better. More airyness, the highs are wet and thick but im using preamp between m9xx & H10


----------



## bavinck

bassdigger said:


> Yeah, thinking back, I'm sure that others have also mentioned improvements in treble clarity, from various alternative op-amps. I guess if those who have switched, from 627/797 etc, to the bursons had noticed any loss of (or an equivalent of a return to stock) treble, they'd have said so.
> 
> I look forward to reading your impressions, when you get yours.




stuartmc has a very detailed review of the v5s in the h10 a few pages back. I would say the treble clarity is definitely improved with v5 and bass texture and definition has improved with v5,but I only have a couple hours on them and I am waiting for 100 hrs to post my formal impressions.


----------



## olek

Glad to see that there are more m9xx 'testers' here. Pretty fabulous device.
  
 I think my 400i phones are breaking in - their sound did not use to differ significantly between O2 and m9xx and now they are much more responsive to magic of m9xx - such sweet smooth sound...
  
 Tried playing m9xx -> AQ G-Snake -> H10 -> 400i again.... not fun, smoothness reduced, more grainy and confused sound, and overall sound is ... strained.
  
 I hesitate to say that m9xx > H10 because of my recent experience with O2. Here it is, described to the best of my abilities.
  
 Got O2 from massdrop 2 month ago, more out of curiosity that anything else. I find personality of NwAvGuy a little bit ... toxic, but some of those people can be quite talented despite their lack of social talent.
  
 Problem with O2 is that it uses 3.5mm mini-socket for its input, so it is hard to use same cables I use for anything else (AQ G-Snakes).
  
 First test, DACMini -> Mediabridge cable -> O2.
 What a disappointment. Very alarm-clock like sound, very rigid/stiff, with flat notes, no nuances, no dynamism at all.
  
 Swapped Mediabridge cable for basic Choseal cable. Hmm... a little bit better, sound got some softness, but alarm-clock like notes still ran through from time to time. Interesting... Felt that it maybe performed to its $80 price point. Maybe not.
  
 Fast forward couple weeks. Got my hands on Wireworld Luna 7 and Solstice 7 RCA-to-mini cables.
  
 Tried Luna first. Wow. Soundstage kicked in. Neutral sound. Sounds really nice. For some time I suspected that it was getting ahead of H10 on some tracks where finesse was important, but then realized that I just like cleanliness, but low level detail of H10 was still missing with O2. Close, but no cigar.
  
 Tried Solstice 7. Despite this being more expensive cable in their lineup (same cable as Luna, but with silver coating), change was not quite for the better. Better bass, stronger and with mode details, but is cut into mids so badly and destroyed sound coherency, mangling soundstage in the process. Again, O2 made that quite obvious. I also learned that I was not the only one with such impressions on Solstice 7 - german stereophile publication had same opinion.
  
 Made decision that O2 is good value for the money, but can not possibly compete with $350 H10, it would be absurd.
  
 Was happy for couple weeks until I stumbled onto good deal on AQ Big Sur RCA-to-mini.
 Swapped Luna 7 for Big Sur, expecting no difference.
  
 Wow.
  
 Sound became distinctly softer, gentler, and got so much more details. Nuances were heard that I never imagined were ther, at least so on well recorded music. It stayed much more neutral and drier that H10, but sheer detail retrieval... was really good. And it was not getting 100% 'analytical', like DACMini's amp tends to.
  
 All those tests were done with HD600, which should be very good match for O2 because NwAvGuy owns HD650 and fine tuned O2 with them.
  
 Still, I was shocked at O2 achieving that sound. A bit too neutral, without real 'meat on the bones', but very detailed, with deeper sub-bass, and with better 'air'. Come on, its power supply looks laughable!
  
 All done by getting right interconnect. Still do not get it.
  
 m9xx bested O2 with HD600, but not by much. DT880 and 400i are different story, O2 can't drive them well at all, but ... they are known to be hard to drive phones.
  
 That experience makes me hesitant to say that H10 does not perform as well as m9xx' amp, even if that effect is plain to my ears - because G-Snakes ain't in a Big Sur league, and nothing can beat absence of any cables between dac and amp that m9xx itself is benefiting from.
  
 I suspect that H10 is a 'very good painter' that applies its own pretty good 'paint' over sound, and that is beneficial for sound that was already distorted by not-so-great cables, making it much more enjoyable; playing with cables on H10 seems to have less effect on sound than playing with O2 connections. But I am not so sure that work of this 'painter' will be as appreciated with cleaner signal. Time will show.
  
 Anybody wants to sell me RCA-RCA Big Sur's for cheap? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 And if you want good deal on Wireworld cables, let me know as well


----------



## bavinck

Olek sir, you clearly like your snake oil


----------



## olek

Yes! And live snakes are the best for audio signal transmission, trouble is to get them to lay still while you are auditioning them... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Seriously, H10 is good enough that when one ventures into trying to get better sound than that, 'snakes' start to make a lot of difference.
  
 Back in the days when I used vintage amplifiers as headphone amps, cables made no difference and I thought that anybody saying that they do make a difference is a fool. How ironic that I recognize the impact of cables only now, when my hearing is taking a turn to the worse. Life is so cynical. Still, I am going to enjoy listening to good music, critically, while I am still able to do so.


----------



## bavinck

olek said:


> Yes! And live snakes are the best for audio signal transmission, trouble is to get them to lay still while you are auditioning them... :atsmile:
> 
> Seriously, H10 is good enough that when one ventures into trying to get better sound than that, 'snakes' start to make a lot of difference.
> 
> Back in the days when I used vintage amplifiers as headphone amps, cables made no difference and I thought that anybody saying that they do make a difference is a fool. How ironic that I recognize the impact of cables only now, when my hearing is taking a turn to the worse. Life is so cynical. Still, I am going to enjoy listening to good music, critically, while I am still able to do so.




Thanks for taking my post lightly as it was intended. Sorry about your hearing, seems to me losing our hearing would especially difficult for us audiophile people.


----------



## swannie007

Ok, so I've been burning in my replacement Burson V5's for about 50 hours now and about 10 hours ago I replaced the AD823AN's with some 4970HA's and all I can say is holy crap! What a beautiful upgrade! I am listening to all my old favourites and literally hearing things in the background that I have never heard before like another veil has been lifted. I am listening to Lane Baldwin on his Dig The Hole album playing "Hound Dog" and all I can say is wow! This is one fine amp and such good bang for the buck, especially with the opamp upgrades.
 Not going to get much sleep tonight! Good thing it's Saturday tomorrow. Cheers.


----------



## GioF71

swannie007 said:


> Ok, so I've been burning in my replacement Burson V5's for about 50 hours now and about 10 hours ago I replaced the AD823AN's with some 4970HA's and all I can say is holy crap! What a beautiful upgrade! I am listening to all my old favourites and literally hearing things in the background that I have never heard before like another veil has been lifted. I am listening to Lane Baldwin on his Dig The Hole album playing "Hound Dog" and all I can say is wow! This is one fine amp and such good bang for the buck, especially with the opamp upgrades.
> Not going to get much sleep tonight! Good thing it's Saturday tomorrow. Cheers.


 
  
 So, happy listening!!!


----------



## canthearyou

A little OT, but does Burson give a confirmation of sale. I placed my order with them 4 days ago and I only have PayPal receipt to show.


----------



## tvnosaint

I think when they ship you get notification. You will get them after about 2 weeks considering the xmas traffic if you are stateside


----------



## canthearyou

Ok! Thanks for the fast reply!


----------



## MGbert

olek said:


> Yes! And live snakes are the best for audio signal transmission, trouble is to get them to lay still while you are auditioning them...


 
 Seriously off topic, but someone on the Planar Speaker Asylum website once posted that he attempted to use channels of salt water to replace speaker cables!  So at least snakes are self-contained...   His one comment on the efficacy of the salt water channels was "Don't ask..."
  
 Back on topic: I'm due to be getting an H10 from a fellow Head-Fi'er; ETD before Christmas.  And delivery of a pair of HE 400i cans this weekend.  I've been reading this thread with great interest, and hope to have something valid to contribute soon after delivery of the H10.  The folks here who report synergy with AKG K7XX pique my interest, since my main cans are currently AKG K612s which have a sonic family resemblance at least.
  
 MGbert


----------



## pippen99

The Gustard H10/X12 stack was my introduction to this wonderful hobby.  The comments and praise on this thread for the Gustard H10 induced me to try out these units.  Initial disappointment and a loooong burn-in period eventually gave way to an appreciation of the capabilities and great value of the Gustard line.  I even tried a little opamp rolling for variety and giggles.  I want to thank Stuartmc and Swannie007 and all the others on this thread for all their information and enthusiasm for all things Gustard and for putting up with my newbie naivete and ignorance.  Now the H10 and X12 have gone on to new homes and will hopefully be appreciated as much by their new owners.  I will check back from time to time just to see how long this wonderful thread can keep going.  Au Revoir.


----------



## stuartmc

pippen99 said:


> The Gustard H10/X12 stack was my introduction to this wonderful hobby.  The comments and praise on this thread for the Gustard H10 induced me to try out these units.  Initial disappointment and a loooong burn-in period eventually gave way to an appreciation of the capabilities and great value of the Gustard line.  I even tried a little opamp rolling for variety and giggles.  I want to thank Stuartmc and Swannie007 and all the others on this thread for all their information and enthusiasm for all things Gustard and for putting up with my newbie naivete and ignorance.  Now the H10 and X12 have gone on to new homes and will hopefully be appreciated as much by their new owners.  I will check back from time to time just to see how long this wonderful thread can keep going.  Au Revoir.


 
 Once a Swabbie, always a Swabbie!  Stick around pippen and let us know what new stuff you're trying and how it compares to your fond memories of the H10/X12 stack.


----------



## swannie007

I echo "The Captains'" sentiments pippen. Let us know how your audio journey is going as you pass different waypoints and have new sonic experiences.
Besides, anyone who can spell naïveté , and know what it means, is welcome at our sonic smorgasbord.
Cheers from "The Bosun in The Bush".


----------



## wildlife2011

Guys thank you so much for your impressions/comments/suggestion on this Amplifier. I just got mine yesterday. 3 hours of burn in and I plugged in my HE-400S. It is really the best thing I bought for myself. It sound so great. The sound stage is fantastic. Over all SQ is superb! I know it will improve more in time. For now it's on for more burn-in. Thank you so much guys! Sorry for my bad english.


----------



## bavinck

wildlife2011 said:


> Guys thank you so much for your impressions/comments/suggestion on this Amplifier. I just got mine yesterday. 3 hours of burn in and I plugged in my HE-400S. It is really the best thing I bought for myself. It sound so great. The sound stage is fantastic. Over all SQ is superb! I know it will improve more in time. For now it's on for more burn-in. Thank you so much guys! Sorry for my bad english.




Welcome to the gustard family. I am running the 400i with and loving it. Second best thing beside the h10 I did was get the x12 dac.


----------



## swannie007

wildlife2011 said:


> Guys thank you so much for your impressions/comments/suggestion on this Amplifier. I just got mine yesterday. 3 hours of burn in and I plugged in my HE-400S. It is really the best thing I bought for myself. It sound so great. The sound stage is fantastic. Over all SQ is superb! I know it will improve more in time. For now it's on for more burn-in. Thank you so much guys! Sorry for my bad english.


 

 Welcome aboard wildlife2011, sorry about your wallet!


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> @stuartmc has a very detailed review of the v5s in the h10 a few pages back. I would say the treble clarity is definitely improved with v5 and bass texture and definition has improved with v5,but I only have a couple hours on them and I am waiting for 100 hrs to post my formal impressions.


 
  
 You're right, of course. I've done a bit of re-reading (the last 20 pages or so) and most 'swabbing' comments seem to mention somekind of improvement in the treble, and the V5s are no exception.
  
 I guess that I'm just getting some pre-purchase doubts, as it's these comments that convinced me about the this swab, in the first place!
  


swannie007 said:


> Ok, so I've been burning in my replacement Burson V5's for about 50 hours now and about 10 hours ago I replaced the AD823AN's with some *4970HA*'s and all I can say is holy crap! What a beautiful upgrade! I am listening to all my old favourites and literally hearing things in the background that I have never heard before like another veil has been lifted. I am listening to Lane Baldwin on his Dig The Hole album playing "Hound Dog" and all I can say is wow! This is one fine amp and such good bang for the buck, especially with the opamp upgrades.
> Not going to get much sleep tonight! Good thing it's Saturday tomorrow. Cheers.


 
  
 Do you mean the LME49720HA? Of the dual op-amps, such as the 823 and 627, these are the ones that seem the most interesting. (As a cheaper alternative to the 'Full Burson')
  


mgbert said:


> ... I'm due to be getting an H10 from a fellow Head-Fi'er; ETD before Christmas.  And delivery of a pair of HE 400i cans this weekend.  I've been reading this thread with great interest, and hope to have something valid to contribute soon after delivery of the H10.  The folks here who report synergy with AKG K7XX pique my interest, since my main cans are currently AKG K612s which have a sonic family resemblance at least.
> 
> MGbert


 
  


wildlife2011 said:


> Guys thank you so much for your impressions/comments/suggestion on this Amplifier. I just got mine yesterday. 3 hours of burn in and I plugged in my HE-400S. It is really the best thing I bought for myself. It sound so great. The sound stage is fantastic. Over all SQ is superb! I know it will improve more in time. For now it's on for more burn-in. Thank you so much guys! Sorry for my bad english.


 
  
_They come....._
  
 Welcome guys. I think that you've made a good decision, especially if you have 'phones that need a bit of 'juice' (like planars and AKGs)!
 Also, it seems that the stock item is quite easy (and inexpensive) to upgrade, improve and fine tune.
  


pippen99 said:


> The Gustard H10/X12 stack was my introduction to this wonderful hobby.  The comments and praise on this thread for the Gustard H10 induced me to try out these units.  Initial disappointment and a loooong burn-in period eventually gave way to an appreciation of the capabilities and great value of the Gustard line.  I even tried a little opamp rolling for variety and giggles.  I want to thank Stuartmc and Swannie007 and all the others on this thread for all their information and enthusiasm for all things Gustard and for putting up with my newbie naivete and ignorance.  Now the H10 and X12 have gone on to new homes and will hopefully be appreciated as much by their new owners.  I will check back from time to time just to see how long this wonderful thread can keep going.  Au Revoir.


 
  


stuartmc said:


> Once a Swabbie, always a Swabbie!  Stick around pippen and let us know what new stuff you're trying and how it compares to your fond memories of the H10/X12 stack.


 
  
_...and they go._
  
 As the Cap'n says, don't go too far!
  
 Actually it's (ex)shipmates, like you, that I want to hear from as much as anyone! In your journeys beyond the Gustard stack, what new things have you found, and how do they compare to your long lost treasures?


----------



## swannie007

As the hours rack up on my modded H10 I have decided to use some of my former "paramours' with the " new version" H10 and am currently using my AKG Q701's which are some of my favourite headphones for a very clear and revealing musical tapestry. With the wrong sources they can tend to be very strident(bright) and tiring and cause ear fatigue. Well, I am happy to report that I have been listening to them now for about five hours and am very impressed! This combo is stunning with stringed instruments like an acoustic guitar, mellow male voices like Gregory Porter and acoustic spaces like the Cowboy Junkies album "The Trinity Revisited", which was recorded in a church.
 Man, these upgrades are the best money I have spent on any audio. They have taken a good amp from very good to outstanding, as far as I am concerned, but of course, your mileage may vary. Cheers.


----------



## pippen99

BassDigger said:
			
		

> _...and they go._
> 
> As the Cap'n says, don't go too far!
> 
> Actually it's (ex)shipmates, like you, that I want to hear from as much as anyone! In your journeys beyond the Gustard stack, what new things have you found, and how do they compare to your long lost treasures?


 
 Thanks for your kind thoughts.  I am old(63) and retiring soon.  I only began this journey in March of this year.  So I guess I am trying to make up for lost time by moving to the end of the line audio wise as rapidly as possible. I started with:  H10+X12+LCD2f.  My current system:  Cavalli Liquid Carbon+Auralic Vega(DAC)+LCD-X/ETHER.
  
 Biggest Difference:  LCD-X/ETHER.  I never much cared for the LCD2f.  The X/ETHER are a magnitude ahead of the 2f
  
 Smallest difference:  Auralic Vega.  Noticeable improvement in soundstage but other than that the X12 is a fine piece of equipment.
  
 Medium difference:  Liquid Carbon. Definitely a step forward in soundstage and control.
  
 My first job after college was selling stereo equipment at retail.  When putting a system together for a customer we always started with the best speakers within their budget.  I was amazed at how much better the H10 worked with the X over the 2f.  All the Gustard equipment is of fine quality.  I just ordered today an Auralic Aries Mini streamer.  That is my next step on this journey.  Be well and of good cheer all of you!


----------



## swannie007

Glad you are on board pippen99 and enjoying the journey. I, like you, am older(60) and about to retire and late to the party, so to speak, having only jumped on board the headphone bandwagon about 18 months ago or so. My journey through the equipment landscape however, has been more sedate than yours due to financial constraints and having to pay a substantial premium for equipment living, as I do, in Australia.
 However, it is, nonetheless, an exciting and rewarding journey and with the guidance of like-minded enthusiasts like Stu and the "Gustard Gang", not as fraught with financial traps as it could otherwise be. I am most grateful to my fellow "swabbies" for their guidance and for sharing their experiences of this wonderful hobby. Enjoy the journey. Cheers.


----------



## tvnosaint

My biggest difference so far is when I upgraded my dac recently. I went from the zdac to the pulse then to a monarchy nm24. It made all my hps better. The h10 was an upgrade over the lyr, but I have such sweet tubes that I still run that system in the back room. We'll see if the v5s remedy my retreats. Also have a zmf omni on the way. That should be an upgrade from the he560 and zmf Vibro


----------



## BassDigger

pippen99 said:


> Thanks for your kind thoughts.  I am old(63) and retiring soon.  I only began this journey in March of this year.  So I guess I am trying to make up for lost time by moving to the end of the line audio wise as rapidly as possible. I started with:  H10+X12+LCD2f.  My current system:  Cavalli Liquid Carbon+Auralic Vega(DAC)+LCD-X/ETHER.
> 
> Biggest Difference:  LCD-X/ETHER.  I never much cared for the LCD2f.  The X/ETHER are a magnitude ahead of the 2f
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm also not so experienced, with headphones. Although there has always been hifi equipment around.
  
 I guess less funds (or to be more correct, my 'very sensible' wife) has made my journey through the land of headphone equipment a bit slower. That, and being a 'speakers guy' at heart. I'm just using hp equipment out of situational necessity.
  
 I came to the H10 because I was looking for a cheaper version of the V200; I'd already decided that planars are the 'phone type for me, and I'm happy to research, and try, alternatives, especially when they cost so much less.
  
 Spending a significant amount of money on the lcd2 (my most expensive single piece of audio equipment), was only done because I couldn't find a cheaper alternative (like the H10, or my kit speakers). But I'm certainly happy with them; I just want them to have a fuller, meatier sound. Maybe the Bursons will help.
  
 Of course, I'm curious to know how the lcd2f compares to your new phones. But maybe that discussion is for another thread. 
 Incidentally, I'm not sure which 'phones you mean; the only Ethers, that I can find, are Mr Speakers. The LCD-Xs have previously been recommended to me, because of their bigger bass. Maybe you'd like to enter a few thoughts somewhere....?
  
 You say that the Liquid Carbon amp is a step forward, in control. Do you include bass control, in this statement? I find that the H10 is perhaps too controlled, in the bass. Coming from a totally underpowered amp, (which had quite a gutless, but warm and full sound, with the lcd2f) the H10 sounds very punchy and fast, but also seems to lack some fullness, weight and body to the lower registers. I'd always thought that it was the 'phones, but someone's recent comments, and a brief try of my Ultrasone hfi650s, has made me wonder if it's the H10.
  
 Please feel free to write some more impressions about any differences that you've found, between the Liquid Carbon and the H10, especially regarding the frequency extremes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 ...I've just taken the liberty of searching the thread, to see if you've mentioned which op-amps that you've tried. I didn't find what I was looking for, but it does seem, from your previous comments, that you also had an issue with the bass, when combining the H10 and LCD2f. Now that you've moved on, which do you think was the main culprit (for being bass light)?


----------



## pippen99

bassdigger said:


> ...I've just taken the liberty of searching the thread, to see if you've mentioned which op-amps that you've tried. I didn't find what I was looking for, but it does seem, from your previous comments, that you also had an issue with the bass, when combining the H10 and LCD2f. Now that you've moved on, which do you think was the main culprit (for being bass light)?


 
 I think part of the problem I have had in communicating what I have been hearing is my inexperience or lack of vocabulary.  I found the 2f to be light on bass.  I don't fault the H10 in this regard because the X on the H10 had plenty of bass.  The X for me is just that much better.  I see you mentioned Ultrasone.  I actually have for sale now 2 pair of Ultrasone(HFI 700 & 2400).  My expectations were somewhat inflated when I purchased my first system.  The best I have explained what I heard was to say I expected "solid gold" when I moved from a Sharp mini-system and the Ultrasones and what I got was at best "silver plate".  Some of the fault lies in my source material.  A lot of Classic Rock( my preferred genre) was just not that well recorded.  In spending thousands of dollars I naively expected everything to sound great.
  
 Every new purchase has been a few more steps along the road to what I expected to hear from that first system.  The participants in this thread and other equipment threads have been outstanding in helping me define my search and improve my communication.  I would heartily encourage everyone if at all possible to attend a regional Headfi meet near you.  I attended both Nashville meets this year.  The wonderful people I met and the variety of equipment I was able to experience have helped immensely to expand my knowledge and chart my course toward my ultimate goal.
  
 My imprecise audio vocabulary did not convey what the Liquid Carbon brings to my system.  The LC is more dynamic all across the sound spectrum.  The bass hits harder and yet more controlled.  The mids and highs are clean and clear.  Again referring to a previously used metaphor, The LC was like being in a club at a table at the side of the stage.  The music gets to your ears before ever anything else lays over it.  The H10 was like sitting in the back and by the time the music hits you its mixed with people talking, clinking glasses, people moving around.  Remember this is a metaphor and not to say the H10 has a noise problem.  The LC is just better in it's all around presentation.
  
 A final bit of housekeeping.  You are correct in Mr Speakers ETHER.  I had the distinct pleasure of meeting Dan Clark founder of Mr Speakers at the Nashville meets.  He is a personable and immensely knowledgeable man very willing to share his knowledge with everybody.  He also has the most amazing collection of great equipment.  I rolled the 797/823 ANZ combo and the improvement was very noticeable especially the increase in clarity on the top end.  I stopped there because the LC arrival was imminent.
  
 I hope this was helpful.  I look back over this post and don't know with my vocabulary how I can convey this any better.  Each post I read on this forum increases my knowledge and understanding.  Hopefuly someday I will be able to say what I mean and mean What I say!!!


----------



## slex

Gone fully balanced huh


----------



## wwmhf

My single channel Bursons finally arrived yesterday, but I missed the delivery because I was not at home to sign the package. I picked them up from the post office this morning. When I got back home, I immediately put them in. They have been in my H10 working for about 2 hours now. The impression at this early stage is very positive. 
  
 1. More details than other opamps I have tried (AD797ANZ, OPA627BP) on H10
 2. They sound smoother than other opmamps.
 3. More layers in music.
  
 Here is my experience the single channel opamps in H10: (> means better)
  
 Burson V5 > OPA627BP > AD797ANZ > original opamps 
  
 The original single channel opamps are good, but each of the other opamps bring H10 to a better level, quite distinctively. 
  
 To me, I am particularly happy to conclude that the Bursons perform better than OPA627BPs which I was very eager to find out because I have been using OPA627BP in several other devices (DACs and amps) and I though OPA627BP was good or best among all the opamps I tried.
  
 Again, Gustard H10 is really a fun amp.
  
 What to do to improve it more? I am now on the track to explore those dual channel opamps. I have tried OPA627BP in dual boards and LT1364. They did not result in as much difference as swapping the single channel opamps.


----------



## jerick70

wildlife2011 said:


> Guys thank you so much for your impressions/comments/suggestion on this Amplifier. I just got mine yesterday. 3 hours of burn in and I plugged in my HE-400S. It is really the best thing I bought for myself. It sound so great. The sound stage is fantastic. Over all SQ is superb! I know it will improve more in time. For now it's on for more burn-in. Thank you so much guys! Sorry for my bad english.


 
  
 Hey you are so welcome!  The H10 is an awesome amp.  Welcome to the H10 crew.  ARRRRHHHHH!  LOL, that never gets old!  
  
 We would love to hear your extended impressions too.


----------



## jazzwave

wwmhf said:


> My single channel Bursons finally arrived yesterday, but I missed the delivery because I was not at home to sign the package. I picked them up from the post office this morning. When I got back home, I immediately put them in. They have been in my H10 working for about 2 hours now. The impression at this early stage is very positive.
> 
> 1. More details than other opamps I have tried (AD797ANZ, OPA627BP) on H10
> 2. They sound smoother than other opmamps.
> ...


 
  
 Plug another poison ;  4970HA's?


----------



## wwmhf

Do you mean LME49720HA? If yes, then parts have been ordered. I will solder them on the adapters myself and try them out. I have heard many positive statements about them.
  
  
  
 Quote:


jazzwave said:


> Plug another poison ;  4970HA's?


----------



## BassDigger

pippen99 said:


> I think part of the problem I have had in communicating what I have been hearing is my inexperience or lack of vocabulary.  I found the 2f to be light on bass.  I don't fault the H10 in this regard because the X on the H10 had plenty of bass.  The X for me is just that much better.  I see you mentioned Ultrasone.  I actually have for sale now 2 pair of Ultrasone(HFI 700 & 2400).  My expectations were somewhat inflated when I purchased my first system.  The best I have explained what I heard was to say I expected "solid gold" when I moved from a Sharp mini-system and the Ultrasones and what I got was at best "silver plate".  Some of the fault lies in my source material.  A lot of Classic Rock( my preferred genre) was just not that well recorded.  In spending thousands of dollars I naively expected everything to sound great.
> 
> Every new purchase has been a few more steps along the road to what I expected to hear from that first system.  The participants in this thread and other equipment threads have been outstanding in helping me define my search and improve my communication.  I would heartily encourage everyone if at all possible to attend a regional Headfi meet near you.  I attended both Nashville meets this year.  The wonderful people I met and the variety of equipment I was able to experience have helped immensely to expand my knowledge and chart my course toward my ultimate goal.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No problems with your vocab (or anyone else's English!). Most of us are just 'Joe Public', rather than professional reviewers, or wordsmiths.
 It's not always an easy thing, to describe what you hear. My general technique is to describe things in at least two different ways, and hope that that makes sense to people. I'm not sure that it works. But I think the very best way is to give a clear example of exactly what you (do or don't) hear. But this means making comparisons, and taking the time, relistening, to be very certain. This perhaps isn't something that most of us 'commenters' have the time to do.
  
 You're not the first person to be disappointed with the move from 'low-fi' to hifi. It affects different people, in different ways. But one regular phenomenon is the discovery of the difference in recording quality; a much loved recording just doesn't sound so good, when 'laid bare'!
 For me, it's always been the lack of 'boxiness' or 'bass-bloat' that kind of fills in the lower registers, in low-end equipment, is missing in high-end stuff. A problem that's compounded by my difficulty in finding equipment (both headphones and loudspeakers) that can reproduce the lower frequencies the way that I hear them, in real life. (And for those who suggest EQing: To me, this (and computer based audio) just isn't real hifi!); generally, speakers and 'phones just don't reproduce a realistic weight or body to the sound. It's very difficult, and usually very expensive, to solve this problem with speakers; it involves the right kind of speaker, in the right kind of room, and a lot of experimentation. It seems that, with headphones, it's no easier!
  
 It's just occurred to me, that I've never really done a proper comparison between my other phones, and my lcd2f. Since getting them, I've been so enamoured with the sound of the lcd2f, that my other 'phones have been totally ignored. Especially as my previous favourites, the he400, are long gone. I did, briefly, plug the hfi650 into my H10 (for the first time), expecting to be impressed by the 'full(er) fat' bass that these closed cans normally reproduce. But I was surprised to hear that, except for a general lack of resolution throughout the spectrum, the balance seemed the same as the lcd2. It seems that _both_ these 'phones had a warmer, fuller sound with my other amp (which is collecting dust), not just the Audeze. But I'll do some more comparisons, including the D2000, to get a better idea.
  
 Whilst I don't doubt that I would probably prefer the sound (bass) of the lcd-x, the necessary expenditure is too much, especially as I'd feel that I'd also need to upgrade my amp, as well.
  
 So, that leaves me with the lcd2f and H10. It has indeed been stated that op-amp upgrades improve the high frequency resolution; my first gripe with the H10. Now some have implied that the Burson V5s give a fuller and perhaps weightier sound, in addition to many other improvements. So I'm going to try the single Bursons, but I'll try not to expect too much.
  
 The other thing is the dual op-amps: has anybody got more impressions and comparisons to share, regarding the LME49720HA?


----------



## PWGuy

My replacement Burson "S" op-amps arrived today and they sound great - no static so far, just clear, black background .  Will see over the next week if they hold..
  
 Thanks to Dennis @ Burson for the great customer service!


----------



## tvnosaint

A quick question , as I have taken the h10 apart and put in the v5s. The singles go on the side behind the jack and the duals to the rear by the balanced inputs yes.


----------



## tvnosaint




----------



## olek

As far is I know (and remember), yes.


----------



## bavinck

tvnosaint said:


> A quick question , as I have taken the h10 apart and put in the v5s. The singles go on the side behind the jack and the duals to the rear by the balanced inputs yes.




Yup

Welcome to the burson full boat club!


----------



## tvnosaint

Thanks I've been bouncing from page to page but couldn't get enough resolution for my eyes. I'm gonna zip up now. Thanks


----------



## tvnosaint

Well...that's an upgrade otb. Huge bass upgrade in quantity and quality. The treble has a very nice sheen to it. Those two things are usually the last to improve during burn in. I haven't played enough material to get into dynamics soundstage or imaging but already wow


----------



## BassDigger

tvnosaint said:


> Well...that's an upgrade otb. *Huge* *bass upgrade *in quantity and quality. *The treble has a very nice sheen to it*. Those two things are usually the last to improve during burn in. I haven't played enough material to get into dynamics soundstage or imaging but already wow


 
  
 I'm liking what I'm reading! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Oh! The semantics of adjectives! (Not really a nitpick; just an example of how different people use/comprehend different words.)
 I understand that you're trying to describe a positive improvement (aren't you?), but (to me) 'sheen' is a characteristic. i.e. Back in the day, I used to like the sort of glassy, 'crystal clear' sound, that most metal dome tweeters have, until I realised that it's a characteristic; an artifact in the high frequencies, that shouldn't be there.
 If you mean natural and realistic, with the word 'sheen' implying an improvement compared to the previous op-amps, then that's great!
  
 Please save me the time of doing a(nother) thread search; what were your previous op-amps, BTW?


----------



## tvnosaint

Stock opamps, which I had no problem with. Yes I meant sheen as a positive attribute . No harshness just a shimmer of guitars and high hats meandering through the landscape. Def more 3D staging as well. Hoping for better dynamics as these things cook.


----------



## jaywillin

so i've been going through some of the previous pages, and i'm doing a little shopping on ebay, 
 a few pages back someone mentioned the lme49720ha's for the dual channel position, what about the 47910ha, http://www.ebay.com/itm/321562997004
  
 i already have the 497anz for singles, and i'm picking up the 497brz


----------



## MrChowder

jaywillin said:


> so i've been going through some of the previous pages, and i'm doing a little shopping on ebay,
> a few pages back someone mentioned the lme49720ha's for the dual channel position, what about the 47910ha, http://www.ebay.com/itm/321562997004
> 
> i already have the 497anz for singles, and i'm picking up the 497brz


 
 I am curious about these as well. My progression with the duals has been  NE5532, AD823ANZ, LME49720HA. I'm still using the AD797ANZ singles.  Each change has yielded a very pleasant improvement. Would love to hear some comparisons between the the LME49720HA, LME47910HA and the Bursons.


----------



## Peter78

jaywillin said:


> so i've been going through some of the previous pages, and i'm doing a little shopping on ebay,
> a few pages back someone mentioned the lme49720ha's for the dual channel position, what about the 47910ha, http://www.ebay.com/itm/321562997004
> 
> i already have the 497anz for singles, and i'm picking up the 497brz




The 49710 is the single channel version of the 49720, so you'd need 2 on an adapter to replace a dual channel opamp.


----------



## jaywillin

peter78 said:


> The 49710 is the single channel version of the 49720, so you'd need 2 on an adapter to replace a dual channel opamp.


 
 that makes sense, thanks !


----------



## BassDigger

mrchowder said:


> I am curious about these as well. *My progression with the duals has been* * NE5532, AD823ANZ, LME49720HA.* I'm still using the AD797ANZ singles.  *Each change has yielded a very pleasant improvement.* Would love to hear some comparisons between the the LME49720HA, LME47910HA and the Bursons.


 
  
 The ne5532 are the stock/original dual op-amps. Am I correct?
 Can you give some details about the differences between the duals? Effects on the frequency extremes (treble/bass extension and resolution), realism, listener fatigue, dynamics...etc.
 Please, just write any recollection.


----------



## Noodlz

Alright~! i'm now with the Gustard H10 x BursonV5 _Half-Boat_! lol. Got the single channels today and just plugged in. Wooow...~~ Huge upgrade over the AD797ANZs
  

  
 I will probably have to get the dual channels and go full boat next~ Have some HE400i / THx00 / JH16s coming in this week, hopefully they'll pair well with this too =)


----------



## MLegend

bassdigger said:


> The ne5532 are the stock/original dual op-amps. Am I correct?
> Can you give some details about the differences between the duals? Effects on the frequency extremes (treble/bass extension and resolution), realism, listener fatigue, dynamics...etc.
> Please, just write any recollection.


 
 Hey if you don't mind waiting a little while i'm going to be ordering both of the Bursons at the end of the month and will definitely be posting my impressions after i've received them and burned them in. I'm coming from the stock op amps so I would assume it would be a huge upgrade if everyone is being truthful about their impressions. I too find the stock amps to be REALLY dark with no air and also lacking bass extension, in fact when I first got the H10 I thought it had the same HUGE bass rolloff like the V281 has because it has very little weight in the lowest frequencies. Up to you if you would like to wait before you plop down $200 like i'm about to do.


----------



## heliosphann

Thinking about getting the DAC-X12 to pair with my H10 so I can use the balanced outs. If I go that route, will it be a big upgrade from say my Modi 2 Uber using non-balanced from both Amp/DAC???


----------



## wwmhf

My feeling about using balanced or not is not much, if any. The reason for this is that H10 is not a balanced amp. 
  
 Of course, this is under the assumption that both the balanced and unbalanced channels are working properly.
  
  
  
  
  
 Quote:


heliosphann said:


> Thinking about getting the DAC-X12 to pair with my H10 so I can use the balanced outs. If I go that route, will it be a big upgrade from say my Modi 2 Uber using non-balanced from both Amp/DAC???


----------



## PWGuy

heliosphann said:


> Thinking about getting the DAC-X12 to pair with my H10 so I can use the balanced outs. If I go that route, will it be a big upgrade from say my Modi 2 Uber using non-balanced from both Amp/DAC???




Funny this was my setup before and after. Had an M2U and X12 is a substantial upgrade. Especially being able to run balanced to the H10!


----------



## genclaymore

Yea i do that my self with my H10 as well, but I'm also using a XLR splitter so i can run balanced from my X12 into my H10 and JBL 305's which works nicely. While the RCA is being used for the Lycan.


----------



## heliosphann

Thanks guys, I just went ahead and ordered a X12. Can't wait!


----------



## olek

Ahoy mateys!
  
 Arrr!
  
 For those of your that remember my ranting on H10 falling behind on my quest for better sound, I got some better cables today - a set of old AQ Vipers (to continue with the theme of snake oil).
  
 After cleaning tarnished silver plated connectors, I hesitantly plugged H10 into dac-out of m9xx and put 400i on my head.
  
 At first, I thought that H10 finally caught up with m9xx, with only slight tonal difference between them (m9xx being a smidgeon brighter, and H10 a tiny bit darker). Grain, paint and dullness are gone. But the more I listened the more I realized that H10 had better grip on details in low end and is able to drive 400i with more authority, giving them more dynamics as well. Difference is not as much as it was a week ago, when m9xx was getting ahead of H10 because of insufficient quality cables, but it is there, and it is in H10's favor this time.
  
 Needless to say I am quite happy, as I am starting to get used more and more to listen to 400i when I am spinning vinyl (T70 sound fabulous, but tend to highlight each and every crackle and pop), and H10 will be great for that application.
  
 Looks like I may apply half-boat Burson treatment to H10 as well, it has proven that it is worth that upgrade.
  
 Oh, and by the way, @BassDigger - it seems like upgrading cables also addressed my sub-bass extension complaint. Sibelius's tuba sounds exactly how I remember it from live concert. Gary Karr's double bass also sound absolutely fantastic.
  
 I have not tried (more revealing) T70 with this new setup yet because of lack of time, and I still have to see what those cables can do to my Crack, but so far it looks like getting them were money well spent.
  
 I think H10 have caught up (and passed) other new components coming to my house for the third time now. Looks like a good pattern to me.


----------



## MrChowder

bassdigger said:


> The ne5532 are the stock/original dual op-amps. Am I correct?
> Can you give some details about the differences between the duals? Effects on the frequency extremes (treble/bass extension and resolution), realism, listener fatigue, dynamics...etc.
> Please, just write any recollection.


 
 Let me say first that I am new to the scene and enjoying it greatly. I realize that my experience and ear are not as developed as many of the posters in this forum but because of the wealth of information here I expect to move forward quickly. I am enjoying my music to a greater degree than I have in years and I have to say that it's mostly because of this group. 
 I'm using an unmodified  HE-560 and Gungnir mb. I listen to Jazz and Prog and really enjoy female vocals.
 Compared to the NE5532 (yeah Digger stock) and AD823ANZ I felt the LME49720HA improved the bass. There was just more of it and it seemed to stay there all the was down in the really low notes that you hear in bass drums and electronica - just more noticeable, more present. The mids were nice and lush without being mushy and the treble stayed clean and sharp with good detail, no singer sibilance and was not at all fatiguing. I can listen to these for hours - about 300 so far.  What I most noticed and don't really know how to describe was an overall pleasantness and a greater clarity...like more detail everywhere.  Maybe this is a phenomenon of any type of improvement in the chain. I don't know. I haven't experienced enough upgrades. I did notice that I was consistently hearing things that I hadn't heard before with very familiar recordings. I'm feeling the pull of the Bursons but I'm getting worried.  If they improve the sound quality even more, I'm afraid I'll never get out of the house!


----------



## escucalin

mikey1964 said:


> .... asked their tech support and was given a step-by-step guide, likewise with LHL Geek Pulse (even posted a general guide on their webby)......but man, this Gustard doesn't even come with a manual!


 
  
 Can you please assist in guiding me how to contact gustard's tech support please?


----------



## moriez

There's no direct lines as far as I'm aware. Closest would be http://www.seowonaudio.com/
  
 If you'd post your question here some of us could be of assistance.


----------



## escucalin

Thanks so much for the response; I already tried posting my question on the corresponding thread; (x20 DAC->regarding MCLK usage on i2s port) with no reply.
 The question was way to particular and as i saw on the thread is only about discussion and impressions; nothing with technical tests results and applications to improve or at least challenge the units limits... bitter taste overall.
  
 Thanks again moriez; Regards and enjoy music....


----------



## hongant

Where Do you guys order the LME49720HA? Link?


----------



## wwmhf

Mouser: http://www.mouser.com/?gclid=CjwKEAiAhaqzBRDNltaS0pW5mWgSJADd7cYDL4jdJLoTptWgH9JtgC5M8PhB2FYWqLU4SGe8OM1v6BoCTs7w_wcB
 Digikey: http://www.digikey.com/?&WT.srch=1
  
  
  
 Quote:


hongant said:


> Where Do you guys order the LME49720HA? Link?


----------



## hongant

Thanks  Does it fit in the H10 like the 823ANZ?


----------



## MrChowder

hongant said:


> Where Do you guys order the LME49720HA? Link?


 
 You can get them mounted on an adaptor from minishow0328 on ebay .  Search for 1x LME49720HA LME49720 TO-99 TO DIP8 Opamp IC PCB replace opa2604 NE5532


----------



## bavinck

Gustard H10 with Burson Supreme Sound V5S and V5D installed:
  

  
  
 Courtesy of Dennis at Burson Audio I have been listening to the Gustard H10 with a full boat of Burson Supreme Sound V5S and V5D (see pic above). 100 hrs burn in on these has been done, as Burson Audio suggests.

Soundstage is much improved from stock. Width and depth is much bigger, and the ability to place instruments in their location relative to the listener is very impressive. Instrument separation is very strong, instruments have a specific location in the sound field and do not deviate from that location.
Bass with the stock opamps is good, though extension and texture could be improved. The Bursons give me the extension and texture I want. Bass no longer seems somewhat “smeared” as some have described, but is clearly defined with complex layering. When the music calls for it, it is deep and rich with very strong authority (especially with my 400i). Wonderful!
Mids are rich and detailed, just more of the same goodness the stock opamps provide.
Treble is wonderfully extended and much more detailed and clear than stock. A slight “smearing” and roll off is evident with the stock amps in the treble as well (IMO), but the Bursons get in the music and clear all that up, serving richly detailed and extended treble. No hint whatsoever of harshness or sibilance to my ears, even on my more piecing Beyerdynamic cans.
Timbre and tone are both excellent, a nice improvement from that same goodness the stock amps had. I agree with previous reviewers, in that the music through the v5s feel more _real_ to me. Just sounds more like I am at a concert listening to the music live, rather than a recording – which is wonderful! Relative to stock, the V5s give me the sense that I could reach out and touch the musicians.
Overall the biggest impression the V5s have in the H10 is a sense of authority to the music. The music grabs my ears, forces me to pay attention and listen/enjoy. The stock amps were enjoyable, but they never commanded my attention like the Burson V5s do.
 I would definitely recommend the Burson Supreme Sound V5 opamps for anyone with a Gustard H10 looking to opamp roll. I do think they are worth the asking price, and have turned my excellent value H10 into the best amp I have personally ever heard, especially for the price.
 Bravo Burson Audio!


----------



## MrChowder

hongant said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Not without being soldered onto an adaptor. If you are very dexterous and can identify which legs go in which sockets you can mount the LME49720HA directly. natemact explains it way better w/pictures on post #3485 page 233. Getting it pre mounted on an adaptor makes installation easier.


----------



## MLegend

bavinck said:


> Gustard H10 with Burson Supreme Sound V5S and V5D installed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Holy ****.....if all of those impressions are accurate then I can't wait to order these. Sounds like it fixes all of the sonic issues that I have with the H10.


----------



## jackharm

One things for sure, the H10 pairs nicely with a full set of V5 op-amps 
  
 Liking it so far with my TH-X00's.


----------



## bavinck

mlegend said:


> Holy ****.....if all of those impressions are accurate then I can't wait to order these. Sounds like it fixes all of the sonic issues that I have with the H10.




Well, it fixes all the h10 problems for my ears. No guarantee they will for yours. That being said, I am really only agreeing with a few other reviewers like stuartmc, so my impressions must have something to them. Read a half dozen pages back for his review, it is much better written and described than I could hope to do


----------



## canthearyou

Package of clarity from the land down under. I only have the singles installed but it was truly a noticeable change. I can't for these to settle in.

With stock opamps there was a very very slight white noise that always seemed to linger in the background of music. Not any more!


----------



## bavinck

canthearyou said:


> Package of clarity from the land down under. I only have the singles installed but it was truly a noticeable change. I can't for these to settle in.
> 
> With stock opamps there was a very very slight white noise that always seemed to linger in the background of music. Not any more!




Congrats! Welcome to the burson full boat club!!


----------



## canthearyou

bavinck said:


> Congrats! Welcome to the burson full boat club!!




Only half boat ATM. But I will pick up the others very soon.


----------



## BassDigger

Hi all,
  
 Firstly, thanks for the responses to my previous couple of posts; I'll respond back, soon.
  
 I've placed my order, to go 'half-boat', a few days ago.
  
 I have a couple of questions, about delivery time and email notifications, to those who have received their Bursons (via international postage), recently:
 How long did they take to arrive?
 What emails did you get, regarding processing, dispatch and delivery?
  
 I could ask (email) Dennis, but I just thought that it'd be easier to ask here.
  
 Cheers
  
_Still digging for it._


----------



## jackharm

They should ship via Int'l express so they should arrive in a week or so depending on your location (although it is a busy time right now given it is somewhat close to Christmas).
  
 Some other members have had experiences where they didn't get a email with their tracking number but received it within a week. So if you end up not getting any further follow ups on your order there isn't too much to worry.
  
 Worse comes to worse you can always PM Dennis; he has always proved helpful and eager to help in many regards.


----------



## Noodlz

Dammit. so it looks like my half boat has a leak somewhere, and i've been forced to dry dock temporarily to avoid sinking/drowning. lol.
  
 My V5 singles started making this weird crackling sound this morning on the left side, which i'm suspecting is due to bad contacts. tried various different cans / sources + swapped back to the AD797ANz so i know its the V5s. If i hold both down it improves (Still a bit of white noise) but when i let go it comes back.
  
 I've reached out to the guys over at burson and hopefully they can respond soon (it's friday so i probably wont hear back till next week =T). For now i will have to work with the AD797, I'm missing the sound already~


----------



## canthearyou

bassdigger said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Firstly, thanks for the responses to my previous couple of posts; I'll respond back, soon.
> 
> ...



Ordered mine Nov.30th. Received them yesterday. I did not get a single email from Burson.


----------



## wwmhf

I ordered on Nov. 19, received on Dec. 4. There was no e-mail notification. Contacted Dennis around Dec. 2 and he helped to find out what was the shipping status. 
  
  
 Quote:


bassdigger said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Firstly, thanks for the responses to my previous couple of posts; I'll respond back, soon.
> 
> ...


----------



## BassDigger

jackharm said:


> They should ship via Int'l express so they should arrive in a week or so depending on your location (although it is a busy time right now given it is somewhat close to Christmas).
> 
> Some other members have had experiences where they didn't get a email with their tracking number but received it within a week. So if you end up not getting any further follow ups on your order there isn't too much to worry.
> 
> Worse comes to worse you can always PM Dennis; he has always proved helpful and eager to help in many regards.


 


canthearyou said:


> Ordered mine Nov.30th. Received them yesterday. I did not get a single email from Burson.


 


wwmhf said:


> I ordered on Nov. 19, received on Dec. 4. There was no e-mail notification. Contacted Dennis around Dec. 2 and he helped to find out what was the shipping status.


 
  





 Cheers.
  
 So, it's looking like a couple of weeks is the norm. Maybe I'll ask Dennis if there's a tracking number.


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> Dammit. so it looks like my half boat has a leak somewhere, and i've been forced to dry dock temporarily to avoid sinking/drowning. lol.
> 
> My V5 singles started making this weird crackling sound this morning on the left side, which i'm suspecting is due to bad contacts. tried various different cans / sources + swapped back to the AD797ANz so i know its the V5s. If i hold both down it improves (Still a bit of white noise) but when i let go it comes back.
> 
> I've reached out to the guys over at burson and hopefully they can respond soon (it's friday so i probably wont hear back till next week =T). For now i will have to work with the AD797, I'm missing the sound already~


 
  
 Hmmm!! A little concerning! How many people is it, who have had issues with the Bursons, now?
  
 I've yet to read any of the op-amp threads. Is this a common problem? The H10, with stock op-amps, gets quite warm. Maybe these discrete op-amps are getting too hot.
  
 Where I am, the ambient temp is pretty high most of the year. I think that I'll look into getting some ventilation holes drilled in the H10's top cover. A few 6-8mm holes, along the top and sides, should do the trick.
  
 It'd be interesting to know if there's a bad batch, or if the V5's have some sensitivity to over-heating, or whatever the problem may be. But ultimately, this seems to be nothing more than an inconvenience; Burson's after market rep is pretty high.


----------



## manishex

Yea one of my v5 singles had the cover move up a bit and stopped working one night during burning in period. Burson have been emailing me alot to try to find the cause of the problem as my other 3 v5s are fine. So far I've just been measuring voltages across pins for different sources, amps chips, volumes and gains


----------



## tvnosaint

Mine didn't get a burn in time. I've just been using them. They have relaxed and opened up after 40 hrs or so. So much new gear it's hard to tell where the biggest improvement is. Overall better treble resolution is number one, now the microdynamics are making them selves know. It conjunction with the nm24 I am of the opinion my chain is complete. This is just gorgeous sound . So organic and fluid .the imaging is jaw dropping on the Zmf omni on this set up.


----------



## canthearyou

bassdigger said:


> Hmmm!! A little concerning! How many people is it, who have had issues with the Bursons, now?
> 
> I've yet to read any of the op-amp threads. Is this a common problem? The H10, with stock op-amps, gets quite warm. Maybe these discrete op-amps are getting too hot.
> 
> ...




I've left mine with stock opamps running for days straight. Never got close to being hot. Barely got warm. Mine coming up on 15 hrs straight with single Bursons is only slightly warmer.


----------



## bavinck

I think the bursons run a bit hotter than stock, but nothing I am worried about.


----------



## mandrake50

I measured the case temperature in several spot with the Ad797 and 823 installed then swapped to the Bursons and checked. There was only a measured increase of 1 to 2 degrees F with the Bursons installed. I am a bit of a cooling fanatic. It is my belief that, regardless of temp ratings on components, cooler is better. I was not worried enough about this level of temperature increase to take steps (such as drilling holes in the case) to reduce it.


----------



## jackharm

I've drilled holes over where the op-amps would be on my lid. 
  
 Just waiting on getting a dremel to tidy it up


----------



## canthearyou

Just ran mine for 12 hrs straight pushing AKG K553 at listening volume. 

That was the hottest spot I could find.


----------



## slex

manishex said:


> Yea one of my v5 singles had the cover move up a bit and stopped working one night during burning in period. Burson have been emailing me alot to try to find the cause of the problem as my other 3 v5s are fine. So far I've just been measuring voltages across pins for different sources, amps chips, volumes and gains




Same here but on one of the duals,the red plastic cover been raise about 1cm and it shows some melt downs on its base. 

After switching to stock,everything is fine.

Now awaiting Dennis response.

Btw,the temperature was raise to 3 to 4 
Degree celcius when this happened. Normal constant temp was 31 degree celcis. Measured from the top casing on H10.


----------



## BassDigger

mlegend said:


> Hey if you don't mind waiting a little while i'm going to be ordering both of the Bursons at the end of the month and will definitely be posting my impressions after i've received them and burned them in. I'm coming from the stock op amps so I would assume it would be a huge upgrade if everyone is being truthful about their impressions. I too find the stock amps to be REALLY dark with no air and also lacking bass extension, in fact when I first got the H10 I thought it had the same HUGE bass rolloff like the V281 has because it has very little weight in the lowest frequencies. Up to you if you would like to wait before you plop down $200 like i'm about to do.


 
  
 Err,...well, no. I couldn't wait; I'd already ordered some singles (half-boat). I'm trying not to get my hopes too high; I think that most of our impressions, tastes and preferences differ. But, these V5s do seem to get universal praise!
  
 I certainly wouldn't say that the H10 is dark; there's enough treble (and upper mid) energy. It just isn't evenly spread; a peak, at perhaps around 12-15khz (a pure guess), then it just seems to roll off very steeply. So to me, it's just missing the highest treble, with some excess before that.
  
 Actually, I'd describe the sound, that I'm hearing, as a bit lean; a touch bright or forward. That's because, as you mention, some of the bass underpinning seems to be awol.
 I'm not yet sure how much of this is because of my 'phones; the fazor Audeze's are said to have less bass. But I don't think that they're so bad. All but the verrry deepest notes are present. And bassy tracks, still sound bassy. It's just my previous amp had a fuller sound; there was more 'substance', with the lcd2f. Now, connected to the H10, they sound more like the he400, which majored on bass punch and texture, and had very little in the way of warmth or richness.
  
 If I recall correctly, doesn't the V281 have some kind of sub-sonic filter? Where the deepest notes are, quite literally, cut-off. Have you used a v281? If so, it would be very interesting to read about any comparisons that you can make, with the H10.
  
 Anyway, I look forward to reading your future impressions.
  


mrchowder said:


> Let me say first that I am new to the scene and enjoying it greatly. I realize that my experience and ear are not as developed as many of the posters in this forum but because of the wealth of information here I expect to move forward quickly. I am enjoying my music to a greater degree than I have in years and I have to say that it's mostly because of this group.
> I'm using an unmodified  HE-560 and Gungnir mb. I listen to Jazz and Prog and really enjoy female vocals.
> Compared to the NE5532 (yeah Digger stock) and AD823ANZ I felt the LME49720HA improved the bass. There was just more of it and it seemed to stay there all the was down in the really low notes that you hear in bass drums and electronica - just more noticeable, more present. The mids were nice and lush without being mushy and the treble stayed clean and sharp with good detail, no singer sibilance and was not at all fatiguing. I can listen to these for hours - about 300 so far.  What I most noticed and don't really know how to describe was an overall pleasantness and a greater clarity...like more detail everywhere.  Maybe this is a phenomenon of any type of improvement in the chain. I don't know. I haven't experienced enough upgrades. I did notice that I was consistently hearing things that I hadn't heard before with very familiar recordings. I'm feeling the pull of the Bursons but I'm getting worried.  If they improve the sound quality even more, I'm afraid I'll never get out of the house!


 
  
 It's nice that you feel at home, around here. Your ears are just as good as anyone's, and your input is just as valued.
 It seems like you're using a good source and some quite revealing 'phones; these should help you get some pretty accurate impressions.
  
 I must say that I was a little confused, when reading your comment; so favourable are your remarks, particularly regarding the bass, about the lme's, I'd got to thinking that I was reading another glowing review of the Bursons. I was snapped back into focus, when you did refer to the Bursons, at the end of your comment.
  
 A typical description, that most would be familiar with, of a good upgrade, is that 'removing of the veil'. A thinning of the unwanted obstacle that's positioned between you and the music. As we move up 'the ladder' it gradually changes from being a wall, or at least a thick velvet curtain, to something more akin to a net curtain (or maybe a few net curtains). And hearing things that you've never heard before is definitely a good sign!
  
 All going well, I'm going to be sticking some single Burson V5s, in the output circuit, first. But it looks like I'll definitely be trying some lme49720ha's (why do they have to have such a long name?) in dual/input section, later.


----------



## LancerFIN

heliosphann said:


> Thinking about getting the DAC-X12 to pair with my H10 so I can use the balanced outs. If I go that route, will it be a big upgrade from say my Modi 2 Uber using non-balanced from both Amp/DAC???


 
 I couldn't hear any difference between X12 and standard Modi. But that's just me. ymmv.


----------



## MLegend

bassdigger said:


> Err,...well, no. I couldn't wait; I'd already ordered some singles (half-boat). I'm trying not to get my hopes too high; I think that most of our impressions, tastes and preferences differ. But, these V5s do seem to get universal praise!
> 
> I certainly wouldn't say that the H10 is dark; there's enough treble (and upper mid) energy. It just isn't evenly spread; a peak, at perhaps around 12-15khz (a pure guess), then it just seems to roll off very steeply. So to me, it's just missing the highest treble, with some excess before that.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah the V281 has a AC cutoff filter that lowers the sub bass immensely, in fact here are the measurements for it http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ViolectricV281.pdf, which thankfully can be fixed by changing the switch on the board. Before burning in the H10 I thought it had the same filter as the 281 because the low end was really absent. I have not used the 281 so I wouldn't be able to compare the two.


----------



## wwmhf

The temp on the single channel Bersons in my H10 is much higer, it is around 98F, unless something is wrong with my measuring gadget.
  
  
 Quote:


canthearyou said:


> Just ran mine for 12 hrs straight pushing AKG K553 at listening volume.
> 
> That was the hottest spot I could find.


----------



## swannie007

Try unplugging and re-plugging the modules into the eight pin female receptacles as bad connections will cause heat build up. It could be as simple as that. Cheers.


----------



## Burson Audio

Hi guys,
  
 Please allow us to clarify 2 aspects relating to recent discussions. 
  
 The red enclosure of the V5 audio op-amp, the components, the PCB, the epoxy resins i.e. the entire V5 audio op-amp is designed to withstand up to 250 degrees celsius.  Well above what the human skin can handle.  Therefore, while it does generate more heat compared to IC based opamps, it is designed to do so.
  
 In regard to the few opamps which stopped working or those with its casing loosen.  Those are definitely warranty issues and we'll certainly honour their life-time of warranty and replace them with brand new units.   Therefore, please contact us asap if you have encountered any such issues.  Apologise for any inconvenience caused.
  
 Thanks for all your ongoing support


----------



## swannie007

Now THAT is after sales service! I wish more companies were like this. In our community we are fortunate to have a few such companies and we need to continue supporting them with our custom. Cheers.


----------



## jerick70

burson audio said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Please allow us to clarify 2 aspects relating to recent discussions.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


swannie007 said:


> Now THAT is after sales service! I wish more companies were like this. In our community we are fortunate to have a few such companies and we need to continue supporting them with our custom. Cheers.


 
  
 I'm more and more impressed with Burson as a company, and the people that make Burson happen, the more I deal with them.  They really care about their customers and the products they sell.  The SS opamps were the first products I've purchased from them, and I felt like a valued customer from the first email I exchanged with them.  They are one of the few companies that I don't feel like a number dealing with.  Kudo's to Burson for their fabulous products and the labor of love they put into what they wholeheartedly enjoy!


----------



## doco

it seems obvious the burson op-amps makes a difference from what i keep reading but is it really worth an upgrade of around $224.72 USD? that's what i am debating.


----------



## swannie007

If you are unsure then go "half boat" as it is significantly cheaper, that is, just buy the two single opamps. I did this and am very happy with the upgrade in sound over stock. For the dual opamps I am using the 4970HA's. I bought these without the adaptors and they were about $14.00 a pair if I remember correctly. Much better than the AD823AN's in my opinion. If your fine work skills aren't too hot, I suggest buying the 4970's on adapters which plug straight into the female socket as it is very tedious to bend the pins on the back of the opamps(which are arranged in a circle around the circumference) into two straight lines of four each to plug into the female socket. I am an instrument technician so it wasn't too much of a problem, just very tedious and time consuming and not recommended for amateurs. Hope this is helpful. Cheers.


----------



## moriez

doco said:


> it seems obvious the burson op-amps makes a difference from what i keep reading but is it really worth an upgrade of around $224.72 USD? that's what i am debating.


 
  
 I went full boat last week and am still debating if it's worth it. Granted, I have yet to spend quality time with it but my very first impressions weren't nothing like what most have reported and frankly quite underwhelming. Another thought's been that the stock H10 is already really good.


----------



## canthearyou

moriez said:


> I went full boat last week and am still debating if it's worth it. Granted, I have yet to spend quality time with it but my very first impressions weren't nothing like what most have reported and frankly quite underwhelming. Another thought's been that the stock H10 is already really good.




Stock is really good IMO .


----------



## slex

burson audio said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Please allow us to clarify 2 aspects relating to recent discussions.
> 
> ...




I concur with the service, everthing went smoothly. They even ask to return both duals even when one is faulty. Matched duals op amp or matched duals pairs? Either way ,great service.

I would definitely try one of the Burson amplifier one day.


----------



## jackharm

Honestly I was skeptical at first, but after giving these their proper burn-in(left mine on for like 5 days straight to burn-in for Burson's recommend 100hours) and a thorough listen to, I would say if you had the spare money and were looking to enhance your H10's performance, then I would recommend Burson V5's. Plus they do have a 30 day refund policy so you can always be the judge.
  
 Not to say stock is bad since at stock they are quite fine. I suppose it was more so the minor changes the V5's brought to the table that I appreciated, like how less fatiguing it made my music, and how 'liquid', if that makes sense music can sound with the V5's.


----------



## tvnosaint

After less than 50 hours, they are a no brainier upgrade . Over all clarity, the texture and treble extension . The microdynamics are full on dope. I'm sold that it was more than worthy of the price. It is a different amp with the v5s. I've yet to spot an area they didnt improve


----------



## bavinck

tvnosaint said:


> After less than 50 hours, they are a no brainier upgrade . Over all clarity, the texture and treble extension . The microdynamics are full on dope. I'm sold that it was more than worthy of the price. It is a different amp with the v5s. I've yet to spot an area they didnt improve


 
 I agree. To me the V5s were a significant, obvious and immediate upgrade. It felt like a veil, that I did not know existed, had been lifted off the music from stock. Of course, IMO and YMMV and such,


----------



## MrChowder

bassdigger said:


> Err,...well, no. I couldn't wait; I'd already ordered some singles (half-boat). I'm trying not to get my hopes too high; I think that most of our impressions, tastes and preferences differ. But, these V5s do seem to get universal praise!
> 
> I certainly wouldn't say that the H10 is dark; there's enough treble (and upper mid) energy. It just isn't evenly spread; a peak, at perhaps around 12-15khz (a pure guess), then it just seems to roll off very steeply. So to me, it's just missing the highest treble, with some excess before that.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the encouragement BassDigger. I'm looking forward to your impressions of the different opamps. BTW regarding heat output the LME49720HA that I got came with little push on heat sinks and seem to run just under 90°F.


----------



## swannie007

The 49720HA's that I purchased did not come with the little push-on heatsinks but they are just fine without them. I have been running them for about two weeks now with a LOT of run time with no problems. Cheers.


----------



## Walderstorn

swannie007 said:


> If you are unsure then go "half boat" as it is significantly cheaper, that is, just buy the two single opamps. I did this and am very happy with the upgrade in sound over stock. For the dual opamps I am using the 4970HA's. I bought these without the adaptors and they were about $14.00 a pair if I remember correctly. Much better than the AD823AN's in my opinion. If your fine work skills aren't too hot, I suggest buying the 4970's on adapters which plug straight into the female socket as it is very tedious to bend the pins on the back of the opamps(which are arranged in a circle around the circumference) into two straight lines of four each to plug into the female socket. I am an instrument technician so it wasn't too much of a problem, just very tedious and time consuming and not recommended for amateurs. Hope this is helpful. Cheers.


 
 How much do they cost with adapters?


----------



## swannie007

About $14.00 each on flea bay.


----------



## BassDigger

mrchowder said:


> Thanks for the encouragement BassDigger. I'm looking forward to your impressions of the different opamps. BTW regarding heat output *the LME49720HA that I got came with little push on heat sinks* and seem to run just under 90°F.


 
  
 Yeah, sure; I'm hoping to be ranting about my favourable impressions (vs stock), over the Christmas period.
  
 If they've got heat sinks, then are they also pre-fitted onto the adaptors, ready to push straight into the sockets?
 Do you have a link?
  


swannie007 said:


> If you are unsure then go "half boat" as it is significantly cheaper, that is, just buy the two single opamps. I did this and am very happy with the upgrade in sound over stock. For the dual opamps I am using the* 4970HA's. I bought these without the adaptors* and they were about $14.00 a pair if I remember correctly. Much better than the AD823AN's in my opinion. If your fine work skills aren't too hot, I suggest buying the 4970's on adapters which plug straight into the female socket as* it is very tedious to bend the pins on the back of the opamps(which are arranged in a circle around the circumference) into two straight lines of four each to plug into the female socket. I am an instrument technician so it wasn't too much of a problem, just very tedious and time consuming and not recommended for amateurs.* Hope this is helpful. Cheers.


 
  
 I'm considering having a go at this, as the standard op-amps are available straight from Mouser at a very reasonable price. (And fitting without adaptors is also a more straightforward electrical path.) So far, all the pre-fitted ones that I've seen are considerably more expensive and/or from less prominent sellers. I worry about buying fake items.
  
 I'm not so worried about getting the orientation correct; someone (maybe you) has already given some instructions about this. What I am concerned about (having had a little experience with 'fiddling with things') is getting the legs to fit. And the possibility of work-hardening and snapping the legs.
 I guessing that I'd need a couple of pairs of pliers (at least one of them being snipe-nosed), and use them to bend the legs. Is this how you did it?
  
 Also, I recall someone writing that they cut the legs to the right length, to fit snugly into the socket. This must be more difficult; leaving the legs longer would surely leave more 'play' (movement) to guide them into each socket. Or maybe they're just too fragile to do this.
  
 Any information could help me make a better decision, about which I should purchase.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## BassDigger

Has anyone made a comparison between the LME49720HA and the Burson V5d duals?


----------



## slex

bassdigger said:


> Has anyone made a comparison between the LME49720HA and the Burson V5d duals?




Im using the LME49720HA now while waiting for the pair of dual V5 replacement to arrive.

I still miss the fluid and accuracy of the V5.


----------



## wwmhf

Do you imply the dual channel Buersons V5 sounds better than LME49720HA? Please confirm.
  
 Quote:


slex said:


> Im using the LME49720HA now while waiting for the pair of dual V5 replacement to arrive.
> 
> I still miss the fluid and accuracy of the V5.


----------



## moriez

jackharm said:


> Honestly I was skeptical at first, but after giving these their proper burn-in(left mine on for like 5 days straight to burn-in for Burson's recommend 100hours) and a thorough listen to, I would say if you had the spare money and were looking to enhance your H10's performance, then I would recommend Burson V5's. Plus they do have a 30 day refund policy so you can always be the judge.
> 
> Not to say stock is bad since at stock they are quite fine. I suppose it was more so the minor changes the V5's brought to the table that I appreciated, like how less fatiguing it made my music, and how 'liquid', if that makes sense music can sound with the V5's.


 


bavinck said:


> tvnosaint said:
> 
> 
> > After less than 50 hours, they are a no brainier upgrade . Over all clarity, the texture and treble extension . The microdynamics are full on dope. I'm sold that it was more than worthy of the price. It is a different amp with the v5s. I've yet to spot an area they didnt improve
> ...


 
  
 I want it to be true for me too so will definitely give it a chance. Although I'm not a believer I'm going to play this one along and _burn-in_ for about 40-50 hours before giving it another more serious listening.


----------



## bavinck

moriez said:


> I want it to be true for me too so will definitely give it a chance. Although I'm not a believer I'm going to play this one along and _burn-in_ for about 40-50 hours before giving it another more serious listening.


 
 What source and headphone are you using?


----------



## slex

Yes confirm, the micro details are more realistic and natural compare to LME49720. My standalone Grace Design m9xx amp sound better then it too.

I have a pair of V4 dual coming soon to compare with the V5 dual.


----------



## BassDigger

moriez said:


> I went full boat last week and am still debating if it's worth it. Granted, I have yet to spend quality time with it but my very first impressions weren't nothing like what most have reported and frankly quite underwhelming. Another thought's been that the stock H10 is already really good.


 


moriez said:


> I want it to be true for me too so will definitely give it a chance. Although I'm not a believer I'm going to play this one along and _burn-in_ for about 40-50 hours before giving it another more serious listening.


 
  
 There are many reasons why you may feel underwhelmed; your expectations not having been reached.
 Yeah, I'm sure Burson would recommend that you continue (complete) the burn-in cycle, before making a proper judgement. But burn-in has different effects, for different people, on different equipment.
  
 One suggestion that would really be a good test is, after plenty of familiarisation with the Bursons, swabbing back to your previous (preferred) op-amps, and then making a judgement. But make sure that you've given the new equipment (Bursons) plenty of listening, so that you really will get a feel for what the change back is doing.
  
 On one or two occasions, in the past (before I had a computer or good TV), I've been underwhelmed by a change (when borrowing a friend's kit speakers, for a couple of weeks). But when changing back to the previous set-up (my own brand name speakers), only then did i fully realise what the differences were!


----------



## bavinck

bassdigger said:


> There are many reasons why you may feel underwhelmed; your expectations not having been reached.
> Yeah, I'm sure Burson would recommend that you continue (complete) the burn-in cycle, before making a proper judgement. But burn-in has different effects, for different people, on different equipment.
> 
> One suggestion that would really be a good test is, after plenty of familiarisation with the Bursons, swabbing back to your previous (preferred) op-amps, and then making a judgement. But make sure that you've given the new equipment (Bursons) plenty of listening, so that you really will get a feel for what the change back is doing.
> ...




Really good idea!


----------



## moriez

bavinck said:


> moriez said:
> 
> 
> > I want it to be true for me too so will definitely give it a chance. Although I'm not a believer I'm going to play this one along and _burn-in_ for about 40-50 hours before giving it another more serious listening.
> ...


 
  
 Matrix X-Sabre and Hope VI mostly.
  
  


bassdigger said:


> There are many reasons why you may feel underwhelmed;* your expectations not having been reached.* Yeah, I'm sure Burson would recommend that you continue (complete) the burn-in cycle, before making a proper judgement. But burn-in has different effects, for different people, on different equipment.
> 
> *One suggestion that would really be a good test is, after plenty of familiarisation with the Bursons, swabbing back to your previous (preferred) op-amps*, and then making a judgement. But make sure that you've given the new equipment (Bursons) plenty of listening, so that you really will get a feel for what the change back is doing.


 
  
 Good tip about going back to stock opamps. I made it my action plan. Before the weekend's here I must have burned around 50 hours.


----------



## wwmhf

Thanks for your confirmation, and I am looking forward to your comparison between the V4 and V5. 
  
 Your post raised another question for me: Between H10 with all the Bersons opamps and the Grace Design m9xx, which one sounds better to you? 
  
 Quote:


slex said:


> Yes confirm, the micro details are more realistic and natural compare to LME49720. My standalone Grace Design m9xx amp sound better then it too.
> 
> I have a pair of V4 dual coming soon to compare with the V5 dual.


----------



## slex

Burson sent me a pair of dual V5 instead of V4 which I ordered. 

Yes the H10 with Full boat V5 sounds better, very detail and the lows have more air and tighter. Highs are smoother and blend nicely and musically.

Please note: I am using a Pre amp ( JC 2 ) between Grace m9xx and Gustard G10.

http://m.aliexpress.com/item/32272311432.html?tracelog=storedetail2mobilesitedetail


----------



## Walderstorn

Damn wish i had those deep pockets to try something as expensive as those v5 u guys keep praising.


----------



## olek

wwmhf said:


> Your post raised another question for me: Between H10 with all the Bersons opamps and the Grace Design m9xx, which one sounds better to you?


 
  
 Even with simple AD797 upgrade, H10 sounds (a bit) better to my ears than m9xx... but only after better interconnects were added in the mix.
  
 Listening now to vinyl, amped by H10 on 400i - it is pure bliss on records with good mastering.


----------



## bavinck

If anyone is looking for opamp upgrades of 767/823 I would be willing to ship them to you for the price of shipping. Good way to get into the opamp rolling game and I will never switch from v5s.


----------



## johangrb

walderstorn said:


> Damn wish i had those deep pockets to try something as expensive as those v5 u guys keep praising.


 
 Tip - you can "Make an offer" on their Ebay listing. Sometimes you might get lucky.


----------



## wwmhf

Thanks for the clarification, and what you described here is what I expected. 
  
 Quote:


olek said:


> Even with simple AD797 upgrade, H10 sounds (a bit) better to my ears than m9xx... but only after better interconnects were added in the mix.
> 
> Listening now to vinyl, amped by H10 on 400i - it is pure bliss on records with good mastering.


----------



## fritobugger

bavinck said:


> If anyone is looking for opamp upgrades of 767/823 I would be willing to ship them to you for the price of shipping. Good way to get into the opamp rolling game and I will never switch from v5s.




Sure. I would love them. Send me your PayPal address by pm and the cost for shipping.


----------



## bavinck

fritobugger said:


> Sure. I would love them. Send me your PayPal address by pm and the cost for shipping.


 
 Got a pm from someone else, I'll let you know if that doesn't work out.


----------



## fritobugger

bavinck said:


> Got a pm from someone else, I'll let you know if that doesn't work out.




Ok. Thanks


----------



## BassDigger

jerick70 said:


> ....
> The install took about 10 minutes.  Items needed for the install:
> 
> 1) *torx #8 (for rear torx screws)* and* torx #10 (for side torx screws)* screw driver.
> ...


 
  
 Some excerpts from jerick70's excellent post.
 I'm anticipating the impending arrival of my V5S's (hopefully in time for Christmas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





), and I have a query about the H10 top cover screw head type and sizes. This will be my first go at swabbing.
  
 Whilst I'm sure that the quoted Torx screwdriver sizes will work, if that's what you've got. Coming from an engineering background, I recognise that these are Allen screws, which are usually sized in 'mm'. But as I'm currently living with next to no tools, I have neither a Torx or Allen type tool set; I'll need to buy, or borrow, some tools to do this job.
 Can someone please tell me which sizes (in metric or imperial) these screws are?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## bavinck

bavinck said:


> If anyone is looking for opamp upgrades of 767/823 I would be willing to ship them to you for the price of shipping. Good way to get into the opamp rolling game and I will never switch from v5s.




All gone.


----------



## pippen99

BassDigger said:
			
		

> Can someone please tell me which sizes (in metric or imperial) these screws are?
> 
> Thanks.


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/855#post_1140133.​
  
 3/32 for side screws.  5/64 back screws.  Allen wrenches. Post# 868


----------



## lenroot77

If anyone is looking to purchase an h10 please pm me.
Thanks


----------



## jimbop54

PM sent


----------



## canthearyou

I think this amp may stick around for some time. It is amazing with the single v5 Bursons! I can't wait to add the duals!

I went in on the last drop for the X12 to replace the Meridian Director that I'm currently using. That should be here after Christmas.


----------



## BassDigger

pippen99 said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/855#post_1140133.​
> 
> 3/32 for side screws.  5/64 back screws.  Allen wrenches. Post# 868


 
  
 Thanks. Yeah, actually I do remember your post, mentioning things rattling around inside your (then) new H10. But your reference to the screw sizes went in, and then vacated.
 As China is a metric country, doing a quick conversion, it looks like the side screws should be 2.5mm, and the rear screws 2mm.
  
 Does this make sense? That should mean that your imperial 3/32 (2.38mm) and 5/64 (1.98mm) keys, were slightly loose. Or at least they weren't a tight fit, (but were obviously snug enough to do the job, without rounding a hexagonal hole).
  
 Anyway, I think that this calls for a seasonal token of appreciation:


----------



## tommo21

Just ordered me a  H10 and the Burson op-amps.
  
  
 Burson have an offer...might have been mentioned before here, but I link to it again:
  
http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-v5-ss-opamp-mod/
  
 $180 including shipping for 2 single V5 and 2 dual V5.


----------



## johangrb

canthearyou said:


> I think this amp may stick around for some time. It is amazing with the single v5 Bursons! I can't wait to add the duals!
> 
> I went in on the last drop for the X12 to replace the Meridian Director that I'm currently using. That should be here after Christmas.


 
 +1. I'm running Single V5s & Dual V4s - Excellent with my HE-560!


----------



## Wubalubadubdub

Hey, I'm diggin the stock h10 but I think rolling opamps is worth a shot. If I wanted more open mids and clearer highs/upper mids what opamps would you guys suggest? Also if you have opamps suitable for my needs and want to sell them feel free to pm me.


----------



## slex

Burson discrete opamp is the way to go for Gustard H10. Life Time Warranty is a big plus.

Currently I rolling dedicated pre amp into this H10 to get the benefit of dual mono design architecture- These pre amps are big name clones and are cheaper then full boat Bursons My tube preamp on the way.


----------



## BassDigger

slex said:


> Burson discrete opamp is the way to go for Gustard H10. Life Time Warranty is a big plus.
> 
> Currently *I rolling dedicated pre amp into this H10 to get the benefit of dual mono design architecture- *These pre amps are big name clones and are cheaper then full boat Bursons My tube preamp on the way.


 
  
 Eh?!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What's that?
  
 The way that I read it, it looks like you're modding and replacing the pre-amp section of the H10.
  
 Please give more details?
  
 ____
  
 Got my V5S's now. Just waiting to get the tools to open the case.
  
 It looks like the Burson V5s are pretty solid, physically, at least; the plastic container was very badly crush damaged, upon arrival. An opamp was physically forced into the protective foam, by about 5mm (like a banana being forced into its skin, rather than out). But the opamp shows no signs whatsoever that it's been in such a squeeze!
  
 I'm just glad that the crush damage occurred at the blank end of the opamp; if it had been at the plug end, the pins would surely have been broken!
 (I'm located in what is officially a 'developing country'; the manually handling technique, of the postal workers, is 'pick up and throw'. And they have no shame about it. None whatsoever!!! (Not actually blaming them. Just the system that they are a product of.))


----------



## MLegend

Dude, I can't wait to hear your impressions!


----------



## slex

bassdigger said:


> Eh?!? :rolleyes:  What's that?
> 
> The way that I read it, it looks like you're modding and replacing the pre-amp section of the H10.
> 
> ...




Just using and tuning the signal path into Gustard H10 from Grace m9xx unity gain set at 90.

Currently I have good results using JC-2 pre amp feeding into Gustard H10.


----------



## tvnosaint

I don't know why anyone would wait for tools. A quick trip to hades and $7, you got em. Of course it's the last place you wanna be at Christmas shopping time. The last bastion of manners, the home of falling prices. As long as your stateside your just a swear word away.


----------



## BassDigger

mlegend said:


> Dude, I can't wait to hear your impressions!


 
  


tvnosaint said:


> I don't know why anyone would wait for tools. A quick trip to hades and $7, you got em. Of course it's the last place you wanna be at Christmas shopping time. The last bastion of manners, the home of falling prices. As long as your stateside your just a swear word away.


 
  
_(I'm assuming that both of these comments are directed at me.)_
  
 It's nice to read that others are anxious to read my impressions!
  
 I'll leave some first impressions, once I've got some 'me' time. I'll start by doing a bit reacquaintance with the sound of the standard amp; I've not been doing so much listening, recently. I want to make sure that the 'standard' sound is quite fresh in my head. Then I'll switch over the opamps (tools have been acquired!), give them some time to 'warmth through', listen to some familiar tracks and then I'll give a bit of feedback.
  
 As I'm away from my family, this will probably be my Christmas treat. So look out for my comments over this period.


----------



## wwmhf

Do you have a full set of Bursons, both the single and dual channel? If so, yes, please count me as one of those anxious to read your impressions!
  
 Quote:


bassdigger said:


> _(I'm assuming that both of these comments are directed at me.)_
> 
> It's nice to read that others are anxious to read my impressions!
> 
> ...


----------



## tvnosaint

Yeah it was, I hate going to Walmart more than anyone I know, but I can get the tools I need on the cheap with few surprises. I think the set needed was $5 but I got a 3 for 10 set. I only had to push 3 peoples carts out of my way and snap off one "really, sideways?"


----------



## BassDigger

wwmhf said:


>


 
  
 No, I'm afraid that I'm just going 'half-boat'.
  
 P.S. Why does your text never appear in the 'quote'?
  


tvnosaint said:


> Yeah it was, I hate going to Walmart more than anyone I know, but I can get the tools I need on the cheap with few surprises. I think the set needed was $5 but I got a 3 for 10 set.* I only had to push 3 peoples carts out of my way and snap off one "really, sideways?"*


 
  
 I already have plenty of tools. But I'm currently a few thousand miles away from them, and I don't want to start building another tool set.
  
 I hear you brother. In some countries, they have a natural inclination to ALWAYS cross in front of you, rather than behind. No matter how obvious it is where you're heading, and that someone will have to avoid a collision. Or even more annoying, they just ignore you, take their time, or even stop and block your path, whilst you're courteously (and obviously) waiting, making way for them. And they don't save this behaviour for 'special occasions' (or supermarkets)!
 Are there any stores with horns fitted to the trolleys? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My single Bursons are still 'decorating' my desktop, currently. But I am anxious to get them installed, and get listening asap! I should be leaving some impressions after a day or two.


----------



## jackharm

I believe it is due to wwmhf placing his reply message before the quote.


----------



## tvnosaint

I tried to wait until upgrade fever wrapped me in its icy grip. I rationalized my way out. You will be happy with them when the time arrives. The extension at both ends and increase in dynamics and clarity is worth the time and money.


----------



## wwmhf

jackharm said:


> I believe it is due to wwmhf placing his reply message before the quote.


 
 Thanks for pointing this out; otherwise, I do not know how answer BassDigger's question.


----------



## canthearyou

tvnosaint said:


> I tried to wait until upgrade fever wrapped me in its icy grip. I rationalized my way out. You will be happy with them when the time arrives. The extension at both ends and increase in dynamics and clarity is worth the time and money.




This! And it becomes more clearer every single time I listen to it. I'm on the fence about spending the additional cash on the v5 duals. I really can't see it getting much better than this. 

JK. I'm gonna get the duals. Lol


----------



## wwmhf

canthearyou said:


> This! And it becomes more clearer every single time I listen to it. I'm on the fence about spending the additional cash on the v5 duals. I really can't see it getting much better than this.
> 
> JK. I'm gonna get the duals. Lol


 
  
 I am anxiously waiting for my dual channel Bursons to get here.


----------



## canthearyou

wwmhf said:


> I am anxiously waiting for my dual channel Bursons to get here.




I just placed the order. Lol This quickly turned into a $500+ amp.


----------



## wwmhf

canthearyou said:


> I just placed the order. Lol This quickly turned into a $500+ amp.


 
  
 Then, you need some patients which I am loosing increasingly.


----------



## zilch0md

Hey guys,
 
I've been following this thread since the beginning and my only interest in the H10 has been from the perspective of figuring out how well it would work with the HD800.
 
The H10's dual-mono construction and apparently excellent power supplies, combined with the ability to roll op-amps still has me interested.
 
Digging up some older posts, have a look at the text I've *highlighted*.
 
Quote:


flysweep said:


> I feel an important prerequisite to getting an effective answer to this type of question.. as far as the HD800 is concerned.. is:  what is it that you like about the HD800's sound .. and what would you like to improve/preserve/change/diminish/etc.?  Being that the HD800 is very revealing of upstream gear (and it does have *some* inherent character of it's own), it takes on the nature of what it's fed.. more decisively than any other headphone out there, IMO.  So, do you want to preserve the HD800's resolution?  Do you want to roll off the treble a bit?  Do you want to goose up the mids?  Etc. etc. * When establish what you prioritize of the HD800's abilities (and include a budget), I find you'll get more effective solutions for upstream pairings.*



 
Excellent points!
 


stuartmc said:


> On paper, and looking at the critical specifications, the two seem to be identical. There are some build similarities as well, but in my opinion, the Gustard design actually trumps the v200. You have two transformers and separate left, right channel power supplies and that dual mono configuration is carried all the way through with the Gustard. You also have a shortened signal path with the volume pot mounted at the rear of the board with a clever extension rod going to the front mounted volume knob. The Gustard cabinet affords greater real estate for the entire layout, so I think it is a more simple and elegant design without the clutter and jumper boards you see on the V200.
> 
> *We have been on the subject of op-amps lately and it should be noted that both amps use socketed opa134 and ne5532 in stock configuration. That being said, I would think the satisfaction one gets with the HD800 cans would be very much effected by the flavor of op-amps chosen.*



 
Well said!
 
I have a lot of experience with rolling op-amps in an iBasso PB2 Pelican portable amp - a now discontinued, yet unsung hero, which is very difficult to find on the used market because people just don't want to part company with them.
 




 
I almost vanished from the face of the earth for about three months, when I first got the PB2, buying and rolling op-amps across just about every spare minute of my waking hours.  I was obsessed.  I practically went into withdrawals when I finally put the cover on the PB2 and managed to leave it closed for a whole month before opening it again, just to re-run a few favorite combinations, then I closed it up and left it closed for several months straight. Shessh!
 
I learned how to listen analytically from those lost weeknights and weekends of rolling op-amps. It almost killed my ability to listen to music emotionally, however. I had to teach myself how to switch off my left hemisphere and enjoy right-brain listening again, on demand.  OK, with that confession out of the way... 
 
I see the H10 as a desktop version of the PB2, in that the PB2 is also dual mono (but with a common power supply), and unlike the H10, it's fully balanced, from input to output - so where the H10 can use two dual op-amps in the input _voltage gain_ stage, just as with the PB2, the H10 is limited to using two singles in the output buffer (_current gain_) stage, where the PB2 can use four singles as output buffers.
 
I don't know what supply voltage (Vs) an H10 delivers to its op-amps, but the datasheets for most op-amps reveal they cannot handle supply voltages in excess of 18V and they enjoy their lowest _THD+Noise_ figures at a Vs of 15V, not at their maximum permissible supply voltage.  Given the _same _supply voltage (up to 16V with the PB2, for a 32V swing), this means that even though the H10 has a single-ended output (with 2x singles for output buffers), it's balanced at the input voltage gain stage, and thus, it can deliver just as much output _voltage_ to the headphones as can the fully-balanced PB2, albeit only half as much_ current _to the headphones. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing for the H10.  The use of 2x singles in the output gain stage is somewhat of a blessing for anyone seeking transparency and resolution beyond what most headphones require. 
 
For reasons that escape my understanding, I've found that transparency and resolution tend to get corrupted more readily by your choice of output buffers than by your choice of I/V op-amps - and the higher the current output of op-amps used as buffers, the more they tend to degrade transparency and resolution. In other words, trying to increase total power output by installing buffers that have higher current outputs can turn an HD800 into an HD600 very quickly (in terms of detail and transparency.)  Say goodbye to those low-level signals that reside just above the noise floor, contributing so much to imaging, soundstage, timbre, and overall "naturalness."  
 
In fact, and I can't overemphasize this, if you want to really bump up the transparency and resolution of a PB2 (or H10, or any other amp that allows you to roll output buffers in addition to rolling I/V op-amps, try replacing the output buffers with "dummy buffers" - which are basically nothing more than DIP8 adapters with wires that shunt the pins. You'll get absolutely no current gain, but you'll also rip away whatever veil was being contributed coincident with (and I believe, proportional to) the current gain of buffer op-amps.  For headphones that are primarily voltage-hungry, you won't miss the current contributed by output buffers.
 
You can probably see how Gustard's choice to give the H10 balanced input but single-ended output allowed them to cut the number of buffer op-amps in half, thus lowering the noise floor, improving transparency and resolution (with perhaps an insignificant loss of current output).  An HE-6 might find the total power wanting, but I can assure you an HD800 doesn't need more current than what I get with the PB2 using dummy buffers. With one exception, my favorite configurations with the PB2 use the dummy buffers - I end up with plenty of power, using only the 2x duals in the input voltage gain stage.  
 
I don't know where H10 owners can get their hands on dummy buffers, but the discontinued PB2 shipped with a set of four (in addition to some other "real" op-amps).
 
 

 
If interested, try contacting iBasso and asking them if they still sell DIP8 dummy buffers (you would need 2x singles for the H10): http://www.ibasso.com/contact.php * *
 




 
*iBasso PB2 with 2x OPA1612 (duals) in I/V and 4x dummy buffers  *
 
This combination is almost too neutral and transparent for the HD800 - the unbuffered OPA1612 turns the HD800 into a microscope, but it's great for less resolving, yet still moderately efficient dynamics and planar magnetics, like the Oppo PM1 and PM-3, and even the Audeze LCD-2 (which can scale to yet more power, however.)
 
*I don't own the H10, but I would bet a nickel that 2x OPA1612 duals and 2x dummy buffers would make the H10 as resolving and transparent as anything else you could possibly roll into it. If you can't find dummy buffers, the most transparent op-amp I've found for use as an output buffer is the LT1028ACN8.  See my mini-review of the LT1028ACN8, here.*
 
*After a lot of testing, for the HD800, I've been using LME49990 in I/V, with LT1028ACN8 as output buffers. Even when used with dummy buffers, the LME49990 is much less "crystaline" than the OPA1612, while still retaining a lot of detail and neutrality. The LT1028ACN8, as the most transparent and resolving buffer I've tried, brings down the brittle edginess of the HD800 just wee bit further than what's heard with dummy buffers. Every other buffer op-amp I've tried destroys the resolution that distinguishes the HD800 from most other headphones.*
 
I haven't tried the Burson V5s, but they are on my wish list, for sure.  From what I've read, I suspect they might be a little too transparent and resolving for the HD800 (somewhat like the OPA1612), but maybe not if you go "half boat" in the H10, buying the 2x V5 duals for I/V, but using a less analytical op-amp (2x singles) for the output buffer - but that's kind of like dragging a bigger anchor while hoisting a larger sail).
 


Spoiler: A soapbox on why balanced output isn't always necessary



Fans of balanced output should ask themselves how it is that there are so many very experienced Head-Fi folks who are perfectly content with some very expensive amps that have only single-ended output. I am utterly convinced that the only reason to seek balanced output over single-ended output is to get more power, for headphones that aren't efficient enough to sound their best on less power - as when choosing to use the balanced output of my iBasso PB2 or the balanced output of my Oppo HA-1 desktop amp - with the relatively inefficient Audeze LCD-2. But for efficient headphones, like the Oppo PM-3, I cannot hear any difference whatsoever in swapping between 500mW rms per channel into 32-Ohms vs. 2000 mW into 32-Ohms. At 500mW, the efficient Oppo PM-3 has more than enough power to maximize dynamics and bass control. Adding more power only runs the risk of raising the noise floor and gives you less finesse when adjusting the volume control. 
 
People argue that balanced cables will always provide common-mode noise rejection that's not available with unbalanced cables, but I am quick to say that this is far more critical at line-level or lower voltages (as with microphone cables), especially with long runs, than it is for headphone cables, which are relatively short and carry higher voltages. There's also evidence that transducers sharing a common ground can generate impedance fluctuations that are "felt" by the other channel, but although this may impact dynamic headphones (literally warping their frequency response with changes in impedance), it's of no consequence with planar magnetics, as their impedance is almost purely resistive.  
 
And in any case, I don't recall having *ever* heard the owner or reviewer of a single-ended amp complaining, "I wish this amp had balanced output so that I wouldn't have to suffer listening to all this common-mode noise and cross-channel impedance fluctuations."  LOL  
 
But there are a ton of people who have said, "My headphones have much better bass extension and control, as well as improved dynamics, when I use the 4-Pin XLR output of my amp vs. the 6.3mm jack"  The benefits of going to balanced output are primarily those which accompany an increase in power for headphones that weren't operating at their maximum potential with less power, but again, there are lots of single-ended designs that have plenty of power for most headphones. 
 
The H10's design is clever in that by staying dual mono up until it reaches the output buffers, they're able to run two duals instead of two singles - for twice the output voltage. The only thing that's compromised with two singles in the buffer stage (to the single-ended output) is the total current - it's half what could have been mustered with two duals as buffers with balanced output.
 
The PB2 uses four singles as output buffers (for current gain), where the H10 is limited to using two singles (for single-ended rather than balanced output). So the PB2 can deliver twice as much current but an equal amount of voltage going to the headphones for any given choice of op-amps, assuming the H10 can deliver supply voltages (Vs) as high as 16V for a 32V swing.  
 
But as I pointed out above, getting more power in the form of increased current from the output buffers tends come with a reduction of transparency and resolution. Everything's a compromise.


 
Mike


----------



## bavinck

Wow, great post. That would have taken some time. Thanks!


----------



## wwmhf

Many good points, thanks a lot for sharing them with us.


----------



## canthearyou

That's one helluva write up!


----------



## zilch0md

Thanks, but beware the guy who sounds like he knows what he's talking about.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   
  
 I should add that I have no clue whether the H10 would tolerate the use of dummy buffers, so proceed at your own risk.
  
 Mike


----------



## bavinck

zilch0md said:


> Thanks, but beware the guy who sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
> 
> I should add that I have no clue whether the H10 would tolerate the use of dummy buffers, so proceed at your own risk.
> 
> Mike


 
It is well know that all Mikes worldwide cab be trusted on any topic.


----------



## Yeskey

From China to California in 3 days. Time to start burning this puppy in!


----------



## zilch0md

bavinck said:


> It is well know that all Mikes worldwide cab be trusted on any topic.




Haha! I feel empowered!


----------



## wwmhf

I received my Christmas gift: My pair of Burson dual channel opamps got here at a very good time! 
  
 I immediately put them in. Warning: if you are going to try yours, do not listening to them during the first few hours or so! Very bad. I have been burning them for about 10 hours now. They are getting better. 
  
 Here some pictures:


----------



## wwmhf

Burson opamps are well made. The pins on these opamps fit the opamp sockets very well.


----------



## sunneebear

@wwmhf
I am very surprised that you find the new Burson's sound bad. I have been using their op-amps since gen 1 and fresh from the factory they still sound better than any ICs.


----------



## wwmhf

sunneebear said:


> @wwmhf
> I am very surprised that you find the new Burson's sound bad. I have been using their op-amps since gen 1 and fresh from the factory they still sound better than any ICs.


 
  
 Bad or not is relative. The previous set of dual opamps were in service for some time and they were the best I had after a few trials. I was quite satisfied by them. The dual Bursons did sound grainy and congested at the beginning (a couple of hours or so). When I said "Very bad", I meant they were bad and did not sound as good as those opamps they replaced at the beginning. Now they have opened up and sound more acceptable or closer to the previous opamps. I have been listening to the dual Bursons in the last couple of hours.


----------



## BassDigger

zilch0md said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've been following this thread since the beginning and my only interest in the H10 has been from the perspective of figuring out how well it would work with the HD800.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Welcome aboard!
  
 An interesting read. But just to point out the Gustard H10 is based on a Violectric design (credit where credit is due); the fundamentals are their choice. This is what originally attracted me to the H10. That, and Gustard's application seems to be no 'poor relation'!
  
 Are you thinking of acquiring a H10? I hope so, because particularly if you're using the HD800 (and swabbing), your impressions would be very much of interest!




 _________________
  
 I'm about to do some first time 'open amp surgery' (swabbing). Wish me luck!


----------



## BassDigger

wwmhf said:


> Bad or not is relative. *The previous set of dual opamps were in service for some time and they were the best I had after a few trials. I was quite satisfied by them.* The dual Bursons did sound grainy and congested at the beginning (a couple of hours or so). When I said "Very bad", I meant they were bad and *did not sound as good as those opamps they replaced at the beginning. Now they have opened up and sound more acceptable or closer to the previous opamps.* I have been listening to the dual Bursons in the last couple of hours.


 
  
 Which duals were your previous fave?
  
 Did you experience a similar 'running in' phase, with the single Bursons?


----------



## bavinck

bassdigger said:


> Welcome aboard!
> 
> An interesting read. But just to point out the Gustard H10 is based on a Violectric design (credit where credit is due); the fundamentals are their choice. This is what originally attracted me to the H10. That, and Gustard's application seems to be no 'poor relation'!
> 
> ...


 
 I think there is some debate about the h10 being a violectric design. My understanding is that someone here talked with Gustard engineer and he said it was not based on that design. Who knows....


----------



## wwmhf

bassdigger said:


> Which duals were your previous fave?
> 
> Did you experience a similar 'running in' phase, with the single Bursons?


 
  
 The dual Bursons are getting better (than they were in the first couple of hours) and closer to the opamps they replaced.
  
 No, my single channel Bursons did not show any "running/burning in" phase, they immediately let me conclude they were on par with or better than the previous ops opamps.


----------



## BassDigger

wwmhf said:


> *The dual Bursons are getting better (than they were in the first couple of hours) and closer to the opamps they replaced.*
> 
> No, my single channel Bursons did not show any "running/burning in" phase, they immediately let me conclude they were on par with or better than the previous ops opamps.


 
  
 When you have got a more solid impression, please let us know which opamps you're comparing them to.
  
 Cheers.
  
 ------------
  
 The 'surgery' seems to have been successful; at least there are no pops or bangs (yet)! 
 I'll do some initial impression listening after a few hours, once my 'rig' has had a chance to warm up. It would be unfair to make any judgements before then; I no longer leave my gear switched on; it gets too hot (and apparently 24/7 powered up kills capacitors). I normally only listen after 2-3 hours of 'warm up' playing; the sound can be a bit 'ropey' before then.


----------



## BassDigger

bavinck said:


> I think there is some debate about the h10 being a violectric design. My understanding is that someone here talked with Gustard engineer and he said it was not based on that design. Who knows....


 
  
 Debate? Maybe. Because ever since stumbling upon this thread (and therefore the H10), I've always understood the H10 to be a reincarnation of a Violectric amp (the V200, I think). Maybe I've got the wrong impression (it wouldn't be the first time).
 I don't doubt your recollection. But really, what would you say, if you were trying to sell something based on somebody else's work?
  
 It's a tricky topic, but all I'm saying is that whilst we enjoy the bargain that is the Gustard H10, let's try and keep all credit in its rightful place(s). We've given our cash to Gustard, but let's at least give a nod, if it's due, to all/any 'honourable mentions'!
 Cheers.


----------



## slex

wwmhf said:


> I received my Christmas gift: My pair of Burson dual channel opamps got here at a very good time!
> 
> I immediately put them in. Warning: if you are going to try yours, do not listening to them during the first few hours or so! Very bad. I have been burning them for about 10 hours now. They are getting better.
> 
> Here some pictures:






While im feeding V5 balanced into H10.


----------



## BassDigger

slex said:


> While im feeding V5 balanced into H10.


 
  





 Balanced?!? I dunno; it looks like the left channel is a bit higher, to me.


----------



## slex

Its as tight as its get right now.☺️


----------



## zilch0md

bassdigger said:


> Welcome aboard!
> 
> An interesting read. But just to point out the Gustard H10 is based on a Violectric design (credit where credit is due); the fundamentals are their choice. This is what originally attracted me to the H10. That, and Gustard's application seems to be no 'poor relation'!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm good with calling it a Violectric design. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Will I buy an H10?  I'm still on the fence, but if I buy a pair of V5 duals for the PB2, and if I like the way they sound for the HD800 in that amp, I will then consider getting the H10 as a desktop host for the V5s.  
  
 For portable use, I'm so content with the LME49990 in I/V and LT1028ANC8 as output buffers (for PB2 > HD800), that it's only out of curiosity I'm considering the Burson V5s.  Then again, that curiosity is what drove me to try the combination I like so much. There's really no end game with rolling op-amps (or tubes).  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Contentment is a choice made independent of circumstances, but it's in our nature to seek ever more contentment.   
  
 At least Burson offers a 30-day guarantee. I paid mouser.com $150 for a pair of genuine Muses 02 that I'm stuck with, now. I really don't like them for my purposes. But that's the way it goes with audio.  Buy it to try it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 If you'd like to try a pair of LME449990 duals and a pair of LT1028ANC8 singles in your H10, this ebay seller seems to have good feedback:
  




 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-Dual-to-Mono-LME49990MA-replace-OPA2604-NE5532-TL072-/221338997381
 (Order *two* of this item - a pair of duals for $32.00 total)
  




 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-LT1028-SOIC-DIP-adapter-/220724201398  
 (Order *one* of this item - a pair of singles for $5.50)
  
 Per my earlier big post, the beauty of using the LT1028 as output buffers is that they are so "inert" - the closest thing I've found to using dummy buffers. Most op-amp data sheets will highlight how much current they can deliver (some boasting maximums of 50mA in the introduction at the top of the PDF).  As I wrote earlier, I can't even find any current output specs for the LT1028ANC8 - it's as if they are embarrassed that it doesn't add any power to your signal.  When I first discovered this, I concluded I had no use for a "powerless" buffer op-amp, because I've got dummy buffers I can use for the ultimate in transparency, but I've since realized that the LT1028 can actually serve the purpose of ever so slightly softening the brutal resolution and transparency of the OPA1612 in I/V, when used with HD800, and went on to conclude that the LT1028 can serve that same purpose to good effect for the HD800, with the more "musical" LME49990 in I/V, which itself is already just a tad softer than the OPA1612, but still extremely detailed and transparent - definitely the runner up behind OPA1612 in this regard. 
  
 Going back to my having quoted FlySweep's very good advice: You have to prioritize your goals when selecting gear for the HD800.  If you want to preserve its greatest strengths - those which distinguish it from all other headphones - you can't mess around with "fuzzy" or "colored" op-amps (or tubes), but the HD800 is so revealing of everything that's happening upstream, it can penalize you for having too much "digititis" in a solid state DAC or amp.  I'm convinced the HD800 is happiest with non-oversampling (NOS) DACs and amps that use zero or very low feedback.  Oversampling DACs tend to make the HD800 treble brittle and the ESS 9023 and 9018 DACs are prone to "glare" - but it varies with implementation, with the Resonessence Concero being a notable 9023 exception and the Oppo HA-2 being a notable exception for the 9018 (among "affordable" DACs).  
  
 Amps that use multiple gain stages (like the Oppo HA-1 and many other powerful SS amps) have to control the audible distortion each stage creates by using negative feedback.  I'm not an EE, so I am utterly clueless as to how this is accomplished on a PCB, but there are some great articles out there by the likes of Robert Harley and Nelson Pass, as well as a white paper by Dan Cheever, and personal correspondence I've had with Metrum Acoustics' designer, Cees Ruijtenenberg, which make it clear that it's better, in terms of sound quality, to avoid creating distortion in the first place, so the signal doesn't have to be corrected with feedback.  The problem is that while feedback can clean things up quite nicely in the readily audible portions of the signal, new distortion artifacts are created down near the noise floor. These artifacts go unnoticed with the majority of headphones and speakers, that simply can't resolve them, but the HD800 can hear them. HiFi has a subculture of low-power afficionados who are addicted to the pursuit of low-power amps used with high-efficiency speakers. Where is that culture in Head-Fi?  It's almost non-existent, despite the fact that our headphones don't need anywhere near as much power as loudspeakers. If your amp is designed to be "weak" you don't have to apply a lot of negative feedback to correct the distortion caused by amplification. The Metrum Acoustics Aurix has a gain switch that can be set to 0 dB or 10 dB.  At 0 dB, my HD800 is powered solely by the line level 2V rms signal coming from the Metrum Acoustics Octave MkII DAC - with the Aurix "amp" acting only as a volume control and impedance match (a pre-amp) - there are no feedback artifacts near the noise floor by nature of there being no amplification.  But even with the 10 dB gain setting, the Metrum Aurix does not use any feedback to control distortion.  It doesn't have to, because there's not enough distortion to require correction.  (The Aurix uses high-bandwidth step-up transformers for gain by inductance, rather than using transistors or tubes.)
  
 That's where I'm coming from (avoiding gain and the distortion that accompanies it) when I embrace the fact that the LT1028 is "weak."  Swapping it in to replace dummy buffers, I literally get no additional gain in the PB2 - I don't have to turn down the volume to maintain the same SPL at the headphones. I conjecture that its lack of gain is why it sounds so amazingly transparent - not as transparent as dummy buffers, but more so than any other op-amp I've used as an output buffer.  But again, I've come to welcome the very slight softening offered by the LT1028, for use with the HD800 - which just doesn't need any more power than that which comes from the dual op-amps in the I/V stage.  Even if you are using a headphone that's less resolving than the HD800, if you want to customize your H10 to be "blameless" in terms of maintaining transparency, the LT1028 is an excellent choice - as long as your headphones are not so power hungry as to actually need some additional current from the output buffers, in which case, I would recommend the very popular HA5002 (which is a little "fuzzier" than the LT1028, but nowhere near as "fuzzy" as op-amps like the powerful BUF634. (Yuck!)
  
 If you're using just about any headphone other than the HD800, the extreme "honesty" of the OPA1612 duals can be very nice - as with my LCD-2 rev.1, Oppo PM-1 and PM-3. The Meier Audio Stepdance portable amp used OPA1611 (singles instead of duals) and remains, to this day, my benchmark amp for neutral transparency.  I therefore believe that if you really want the ultimate in transparency and neutrality from an H10, try the the OPA1612 duals in I/V with LT1028 singles as output buffers. (Again, this is not a good idea for HD800 - unless you have a good NOS DAC.)  You'll get no warmth or blurring from the OPA1612 with LT1028 - you'll be hearing only what the recording, the DAC and headphone bring to the table.
  

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-TI-OPA1612AID-ON-DIP-ADAPTER-/221071584756
 (Order *two* of this item - a pair of duals for $24 total)
  
 I would really love to know how the Burson V5s compete with the LME49990 or OPA1612 in I/V and with the LT1028 as buffers.  I'll just have to take the plunge.  Tick, tock, tick, tock.
  
 As a disclaimer, please keep in mind that all of my opinions are based on using these op-amps in the iBasso PB2, but I am comfortable that my accounts of their performance relative to each other would most likely carry over to the H10, even though the H10 surely adds a little of its own flavor to the soup.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Still, the choice of op-amps can have a dramatic impact, as Stu very smartly pointed out.
  
 I'm rambling on, here, but have you V5 owners noticed this page at Burson?:  http://www.bursonaudio.com/burson-ss-opamp-101-part-1-mkp-cap-tweak/
  
 They recommend adding a capacitor, rated between 0.01 uf and 100 uf, across pins 4 and 8.
  
 See this post by Head-Fi member pelopidas, who like many contributors to the Opamp thread, has a much better handle on all of this stuff than I do.  I can barely solder!  
  

  
 Pelopidas has settled on using a 10uf version of this SILMIC II cap and smartly soldered it to Pins 4 and 8 of an inexpensive DIP8 socket - making it useful for any op-amp, not just the Burson V5.  
  
 Clever!
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/432749/the-opamp-thread/5055#post_12185207
  
 Happy tweaking and Merry Christmas!
  
 Mike


----------



## wwmhf

bassdigger said:


> Which duals were your previous fave?


 
  
 Sorry I missed this in my previous post.
  
 Out of the three in my hand (the one came with the amp, LT1364, and OPA627BP), I like LT1364 the best. I am going try other duals, but the opamp sockets I bought from ebay take forever to get here from China.


----------



## tvnosaint

Jeez Mike, that's a lot of work. Thanks for your impressions and input of effort.


----------



## BassDigger

zilch0md said:


> I'm good with calling it a Violectric design.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  





 I wish that people would take the time to express themselves......!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But seriously (and sorry if this is in danger of becoming a tech thread): 
  
 I've never got my head around how negative feedback works. I just know that it's very useful when you need powwwerrrrr. But ultimately it corrupts the audio signal. Although, I've never seen myself becoming one of those SET amp and horn speaker types.
 That's for speakers, but with headphones, I understand (or is it misunderstand?) that most headphone amps are 'Class A' designs, including the H10. Doesn't this mean zero negative feedback? That makes sense to me; if you can drive a pair of speakers without NF, why on earth would you need it for headphones?
  
 Anyway, back to swabbing: I've taken a look at your profile _(again; I wish that you would take the time to actually write something! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_ and it seems that you're on some kind of quest to find good audio, on a budget. But I think that you've sacrificed your own 'budget', and spare time, for your mission, because you've bought, and tried, so many things! That's your choice; your hobby, I guess. But I'm trying to learn from others, so that when I actually put my hand in my pocket, it's more of a final commitment.
  
 That's why I hope, that at the very least, you feel the need to try a pair of single Bursons, in your PB2, and let us know your thoughts. But really, you know that you should be trying a H10. Go on; you know that it makes sense!!!!


----------



## zilch0md

bassdigger said:


> :rolleyes:  I wish that people would take the time to express themselves......!!! :bigsmile_face:
> 
> But seriously (and sorry if this is in danger of becoming a tech thread):
> 
> ...




Haha! You're bad! :evil:

I refuse to spend more than $1000 on any component, new or used before tax and shipping - a self-imposed limit - so the H10 fits the bill, literally, but I strongly suspect it's better suited to headphones other than the HD800 (even with the "right" op-amps). I've already got great desktop amps for both the HD800 (Aurix) and my other cans (HA-1), but I'm still open-minded about finding a better solution for the HD800. 

My greatest interest at the moment is to improve my portable HD800 rig, so the V5s will happen, for testing in the PB2, before getting the H10, if ever. (What I want is a good, battery-powered NOS DAC with USB input. Good luck with that, right?) The Mojo seems promising, too. It's not a sigma-delta DAC - it's proprietary - so it's on my horizon, but it's so expensive...

Speaking of people who have tried a lot of budget gear (but he also ventures into midrange), have a look at FlySweep's trading feedback. I move at a snail's pace compared to him and I genuinely believe he has developed some of the most trustworthy ears at Head-Fi. In my experience, when FlySweep says a piece of gear sounds good or bad, for this reason or that, it nearly always holds true. Churning your way through the buying and selling of a lot of gear is how you pay tuition at Head-Fi University. 

---

Class A operation can be had with or without use of negative feedback, but I believe the H10 is at least low feedback, by nature of its not having multiple gain stages. And Gustard (or Violectric?) would be bragging about (or at least disclosing) a zero feedback design, if it were. It's too controversial a spec to hide. The lovers would be missed and the haters would be pissed. 

Search for "feedback" on any of these pages:

http://audio-gd.com/Master/Master-9/Master-9EN.htm 
http://audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/C22015/C22015EN.htm
http://audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1AMP/NFB1AMPEN.htm

http://www.metrum-acoustics.com/AurixEN.html (open the Specs tab)

I might be wrong about how the H10 makes use of a dual op-amp with each channel in the input voltage gain stage, but I suspect it works as with the PB2: Imagine walking up to a swinging door - like the saloon doors seen in many classic Western films. Now imagine that this door, though free-swinging, weighs about 200 pounds - such that pushing or pulling on it requires a lot of effort to change its inertia. It would be difficult to get it moving and difficult to bring it to a complete stop, but even harder to "fan" it rapidly. 

Tightly controlling such a moving mass would be easier if you had a friend standing on the other side of the swinging door who very precisely pushes whenever you pull and pulls whenever you push - always 180-degrees out of phase with your actions.  That's what you get with two op-amps on each channel - more power - both to accelerate the moving parts of a transducer and to decelerate them. The mass can be more tightly controlled instead of allowing the swinging door to coast to a stop in response to each push. 

And you get less distortion with the op-amps working in parallel instead of stacking them serially in multiple stages - which would require use of more feedback, which creates more of those undesirable, low-level artifacts.


----------



## wwmhf

I have been running/burning the dual channel Bursons for more than 24 hours. They sound smoother and their resolution is also getting better.
  
 Need some patience.


----------



## jackharm

I personally gave them their 5 day burn in (100 hours) before giving them a thorough listen to.


----------



## wwmhf

jackharm said:


> I personally gave them their 5 day burn in (100 hours) before giving them a thorough listen to.


 
  
 That is a lot of days/hours for solid state parts.


----------



## wwmhf

I like the "capacitor mod" and I will definitely try it.


----------



## jackharm

Yea, but I do have a pretty well ventilated/cool room
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've owned my H10 for a little over two months and probably already have around 300+hours of use (from burning in the origial op-amps/burson op-amps and then some headphones) . . .


----------



## wwmhf

jackharm said:


> Yea, but I do have a pretty well ventilated/cool room


 
  
 Ventilation and cooling are not a concern for my H10 because I haven't put the cover back yet once I opened it.


----------



## zilch0md

wwmhf said:


> I like the "capacitor mod" and I will definitely try it.




Hey good! I'm looking forward to your opinion of the impact made by adding the caps to your V5s. Which source and headphones are you using?




wwmhf said:


> Ventilation and cooling are not a concern for my H10 because I haven't put the cover back yet once I opened it.




Uh-oh. Sounds like the beginning of a Roll-a-Thon.


----------



## zilch0md

I've ordered the V5 duals.


----------



## BassDigger

zilch0md said:


> Haha! *You're bad!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I try my best! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yeah, $1000, per item, is a good limit. But, for me, that's a one-off purchase. Not an experiment. Well, that's always the intention, anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You're surely right about the H10's lack of compatibility, with the HD800; the jury's still out about how much improvement opamp rolling makes, but the base h10 is certainly not going to be getting the best out of any headphone's treble resolution. (Sorry, if I was pushing you to make a hopelessly flawed experiment.)
  
 Which oversampling dacs have you listened to? As I understand it, a lot of the problem with OS is based on the limitations of the original OS chips; they did more harm than good. But I'm talking more about vintage dacs; the modern dacs are almost exclusively delta-sigma, which, as I understand it, is OS and then some!!! I've no idea about the Mojo, but Chord stuff seems to be quite 'disrespected', in some parts.
  
 As I recall, it was FlySweep's remarks that solidified my interest in the H10.
  
 You're right; when a design is 'zero feedback', that's something that's shouted about. And I don't recall such excitement around either Gustard, or Violectric.
 It's sounds like you're describing a push/pull design. I guess that the H10 is that type; it has 4 transistors, and it certainly has very tight control of the drivers!
  


zilch0md said:


> I've ordered the V5 duals.


 
  
 Good man! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think that there're a few, around here, who'll be quite interested to read your thoughts. I'm among them!


----------



## manishex

So after 50 hours of burn in one of my single bursons v5's lid raised and stopped working (left channel causing the problem), with the guidance of Burson a multimeter was used to determine that none of the voltages seemed out of place except the +/-16V supply voltage to the op amp which is just outside the max operating voltage stated on the Burson spec sheet of +/-15V which was deemed fine and consistent with all sources used.
  
 Fast forward in time, two replacements singles have arrived, everything was fine except for after 10 hours of listening to music I notice the left side has quite noticeable distortion, which kicks in shortly after turning on the amp. I'm scared this single will stop working too or even worse, is my amp is faulty? The Dual bursons seem to be doing fine, and all other op amps chips used in the single rail have never caused me any problems. Burson are on holiday at the moment, so just wanted some insight. Anyone familiar with this problem?


----------



## wwmhf

manishex said:


> So after 50 hours of burn in one of my single bursons v5's lid raised and stopped working (left channel causing the problem), with the guidance of Burson a multimeter was used to determine that none of the voltages seemed out of place except the +/-16V supply voltage to the op amp which is just outside the max operating voltage stated on the Burson spec sheet of +/-15V which was deemed fine and consistent with all sources used.
> 
> Fast forward in time, two replacements singles have arrived, everything was fine except for after 10 hours of listening to music I notice the left side has quite noticeable distortion, which kicks in shortly after turning on the amp. I'm scared this single will stop working too or even worse, is my amp is faulty? The Dual bursons seem to be doing fine, and all other op amps chips used in the single rail have never caused me any problems. Burson are on holiday at the moment, so just wanted some insight. Anyone familiar with this problem?


 
  
 If it is the left channel again, then the amp itself might be a cause for this trouble. 
  
 You can try to exchange the positions of those two single channel Bursons. If the noise/distortion still comes from the left channel, then it is more likely that the amp has some problem.


----------



## BassDigger

manishex said:


> So after 50 hours of burn in one of my single bursons v5's lid raised and stopped working *(left channel causing the problem*), with the* guidance of Burson a multimeter was used* to determine that none of the voltages seemed out of place except* the +/-16V supply voltage to the op amp which is just outside the max operating voltage* stated on the Burson spec sheet of +/-15V which was deemed fine and consistent with all sources used.
> 
> Fast forward in time, two replacements singles have arrived, everything was fine except for *after 10 hours of listening to music I notice the left side has quite noticeable distortion,* which kicks in shortly after turning on the amp. I'm scared this single will stop working too or even worse, is my amp is faulty? The Dual bursons seem to be doing fine, and all other op amps chips used in the single rail have never caused me any problems. Burson are on holiday at the moment, so just wanted some insight. Anyone familiar with this problem?


 
   
 You said it yourself; the left side, again. When you did the measurements, did you make comparisons between left and right channels? For instance, if only the left channel supply voltage is out of spec, and the right hand channel is consistently within, then that shows a clear problem with the amp. Whereas, if both channels are similar, whether in or out of spec, it's not so clear cut.
 You say "the guidance of Burson". I'm sure that they must have already asked you this. Because otherwise they've just sent you a second set, with perhaps an inevitable result; the left channel opamp will get fried!
  
 Moving on: if you do believe that the amp is at fault, then I recall reading (maybe earlier in this thread) that Gustard are willing to fix any problems with the H10, free of charge, regardless of place/time of purchase. It's just going to cost you the postage.


----------



## jazzwave

Just installed Burson V5 Single , keep running for burn in
  
  

  
 How long minimum burning time to get good result?
  
 ~ron~


----------



## wwmhf

jazzwave said:


> Just installed Burson V5 Single , keep running for burn in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 When I put them in, I immediately noticed that they sounded better than OPA627BPs. They became even better later.


----------



## stuartmc

zilch0md said:


> I've ordered the V5 duals.


 
 Hey there brother and honorary Swabbie Mike!     So nice to see you back at this old watering hole.  As you can see, we're still having fun and milking the H10 platform for all it's worth.   The op-amp swabbing has been a real ear-opener for me and the Bursons have taken the H10 to a whole new level.  The improvements they bring to the table have eclipsed every other mod I have done to it....by a long shot.  Keep us posted on your experience with them in your portable rig.


----------



## genclaymore

Yea the bursons are have a permanent place inside my Gustard H10 with my HE-500. While the OPA627AU's stay inside the Burson Lycan for my DT770 pro-80's when their at my desktop. While the DT770 pro-80 did worked good with the burson's I prefer them with the OPA627AU's.


----------



## zilch0md

stuartmc said:


> Hey there brother and honorary Swabbie Mike!     So nice to see you back at this old watering hole.  As you can see, we're still having fun and milking the H10 platform for all it's worth.   The op-amp swabbing has been a real ear-opener for me and the Bursons have taken the H10 to a whole new level.  The improvements they bring to the table have eclipsed every other mod I have done to it....by a long shot.  Keep us posted on your experience with them in your portable rig.


 
  
 Hey Stu!
  
 Yeah, the Burson V5s could end up being a gateway to my finally ordering the H10 - just so that I can have a desktop amp in which to host the V5!  (Selecting the ammo before buying the gun.) 
  
 I'm hoping they're not too crisply detailed for the HD800. As I've said before, the Oppo HA-1 does a great job with my other headphones, so I don't want to end up with another not-for-HD800 solution.
  
 The OPA1612 are too analytical unless I "blur" them with HA5002 buffers, which again, is sort of like dragging a bigger anchor to compensate too large a sail.
  
 The LME49990 sound _almost_ perfect with LT1028 buffers, but this combo is still just a wee bit fatiguing.  I'd like to find an op-amp that's "just right" for the HD800 with dummy buffers (or for the very slightly diffusing LT1028) when used with my Octave MkII NOS DAC - which, frankly, is not the last word in resolution - but it's way up there.  
  
 But it sounds as if the V5s are getting everything else right, for sure. If there's a perceived incompatibility, I think it will be the fault of the HD800's sensitivity to feedback, more than anything else. No EQ can deal with what I'm trying to fine tune. I almost wish someone would make an integrated DAC/amp that's capable of crazy high resolution, but offers something like a "Gaussian Blur" control, as seen in photo editors - literally a knob that allows the user to "de-focus" the signal - having very little impact at its maximum setting - just enough to soften the coarseness of my worst recordings - a knob to make the HD800 more forgiving - to turn it into an HD600 or any point in between.  
  
 I think a lot of people like inexpensive tube gear with the HD800 for the express purpose of bringing down its resolution (in addition to adding color), but some might not even realize that's why they like cheap tube gear.  The Schiit Vali is so good at this I found it to almost strip away the defining timbre of instruments and voices - a gross exaggeration would be to say that the Vali turned everything into midi music.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   But a lot of people think it does a good job with the HD800.  
  
 According to pelopidas (on the Opamp Thread), applying a SILMIC II 35V 10uF cap to the V5s will tame them a bit for the HD800 (paraphrasing), so I'll be testing that, for sure.
  
 Tick, tock, tick, tock...
  
 Mike


----------



## jazzwave

Replaced AD797AN by V5 single, burned for almost 3x 12 hours.
  
 Listening through my HD600, instrument smooth jazz
 My first impresion (compare to 797 or original opamp):
  
 Pro:
 - Wider soundstage, feel the dimension
 - Low Bass slightly bigger
 - Good separation
 - Treble more open but not fatigue
  
 Cons:
 - I hear popping/crackling sound  on the right side, small but annoying. I will try to swicth V5 left to right to check cause the issue
 - Low bass crossed to mid bass area  
  
 V5 single absolutely has different level compare to AD797AN or the original
  
 ~ron~


----------



## manishex

wwmhf said:


> If it is the left channel again, then the amp itself might be a cause for this trouble.
> 
> You can try to exchange the positions of those two single channel Bursons. If the noise/distortion still comes from the left channel, then it is more likely that the amp has some problem.


 
  
 I swapped the positions and usually after 20 mins of listening, the left side always develops popping/crackling. I started swapping out several op amps in the single rail to which I would instantly get noise/distortion in both channels, the source of this problem seems to be one of the Dual Burson V5 as other dual op amps cause the amp to work fine again. Otherwise there's constant noise in both channels now from that Dual Burson.
  
 I'm not sure if it's a problem with the amp or that I'm really unlucky to get 2 Bursons fail on me, how big should the fuse be on the power cable?


----------



## PWGuy

manishex said:


> I swapped the positions and usually after 20 mins of listening, the left side always develops popping/crackling. I started swapping out several op amps in the single rail to which I would instantly get noise/distortion in both channels, the source of this problem seems to be one of the Dual Burson V5 as other dual op amps cause the amp to work fine again. Otherwise there's constant noise in both channels now from that Dual Burson.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's a problem with the amp or that I'm really unlucky to get 2 Bursons fail on me, how big should the fuse be on the power cable?




I'm having the same problem right now with a Dual.


----------



## johangrb

pwguy said:


> I'm having the same problem right now with a Dual.


 
 Wow - I just developed the same crackling problem on my Burson V5 Singles. What's up?


----------



## canthearyou

Ruh roh!


----------



## MLegend

I was just about to buy the full boat Burson set and now all of these issues are popping up. Very disappointing to see. Going to hold off until this is sorted out. I hope everyone who are getting issues with their V5s gets them resolved as soon as possible. Happy listening and Happy new year everyone!


----------



## canthearyou

I'm running v5 singles right now w/out issue. I have the duals on the way.


----------



## tommo21

I'm burning in my Gustard with full Burson V5 package. Only 8 hours in, but no problems yet.


----------



## tvnosaint

100 hours with no problems . Knock on wood. V5s full boat.


----------



## zilch0md

Does anyone who is experiencing problems have another amp or DAC in which they could test a suspect pair of V5s?  (I'm speaking only to people who have the same problem in both channels.)
  
 I'm waiting for a pair of duals to try in my iBasso PB2, but if I find myself experiencing a problem in both channels, I wouldn't know if it's actually a faulty pair of V5s or simply an incompatibility with my amp - as I have nothing else in which to test them.  
  
 I suppose H10 owners at least have the assurance of other H10 owners that their V5s work fine.


----------



## manishex

So my single had its lid lifted and ceased to work after 45 hours (received replacements) and one of the duals developed distortion after 65 hour.
 Burson told me to measure the voltage of the single when it stopped working (below) and I got +/-16V for every reading, they said that was fine but now i'm not so sure, it might be reducing its longevity?
  

 I was then told to measure the stock single op amps (without input connected) pins 2 and 4/3 for which I still got 16V, maybe this 16V increases ever so often but I've never had problems with my other normal op amps chips now I'm scared to continue using my Bursons for the time being.


----------



## Wubalubadubdub

Hey all, I have decided to go a different direction. I have a perfect condition gustard h10 listed in the classifieds for a real solid price.


----------



## jazzwave

To find  which V5 caused issue popping/crackling sound I will switch V5 right to left side
  
 Question:
 Which single opamp handle right side sound?  A or B (in picture below)?


----------



## zilch0md

Answer: The one that silences the right channel when it has been removed. 

(I don't know.)


----------



## manishex

I think its A


----------



## zilch0md

I don't think you will hurt anything by removing one of them before turning on the amp and listening with your headphones.  The channel that's silent will tell you which is which.


----------



## jazzwave

zilch0md said:


> I don't think you will hurt anything by removing one of them before turning on the amp and listening with your headphones.  The channel that's silent will tell you which is which.


 
  
  


manishex said:


> I think its A


 
  
 I take out A opamp , no sound came out from both side...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I decided to switch A to B position....voiillaa, so far popping/crackling sound gone.
  
 Lets see what happen in next couple days
  
 ~ron~


----------



## zilch0md

jazzwave said:


> I take out A opamp , no sound came out from both side...




Wow! I wonder how that's possible. 



jazzwave said:


> I decided to switch A to B position....voiillaa, so far popping/crackling sound gone.
> 
> Lets see what happen in next couple days
> 
> ~ron~




I'm glad you've found a solution.


----------



## wwmhf

jazzwave said:


> I take out A opamp , no sound came out from both side...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 The amp does not produce any sound when one of those single channel opamps is absent or broke.


----------



## johangrb

jazzwave said:


> I take out A opamp , no sound came out from both side...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I also switched mine around - confirmed one bust V5 single (clicking/pops on the other channel). Contacted Burson for warranty replacement/repair.


----------



## PWGuy

mlegend said:


> I was just about to buy the full boat Burson set and now all of these issues are popping up. Very disappointing to see. Going to hold off until this is sorted out. I hope everyone who are getting issues with their V5s gets them resolved as soon as possible. Happy listening and Happy new year everyone!




Good idea


----------



## zilch0md

Made in Australia, QA tested the world over?


----------



## jazzwave

zilch0md said:


> Made in Australia, QA tested the world over?


 
  
 Burson need to give big discount for Head-fi member, we are doing  field test  of their product ...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 ~ron~


----------



## zilch0md

It's a shame, because it tarnishes the entire Burson brand.
  
 These op-amps are going to get a lot more exposure than their Soloists and Conductors - people rising up in the hobby who've been tainted by a bad experience with one of these op-amps will subconsciously, if not consciously, shy away from Burson's more expensive products. I'm completely done with HiFiMan because of their quality control shenanigans - my HM-801 DAP experience was atrocious. 
  
 My first Burson purchase was the Soloist, but guess what?  It was factory-fresh D.O.A. and I could tell the box had never been opened. 
  
 The orange 120/220 voltage-selection slide switch was faulty. How does a problem like that manage to get out of the factory?  
  
 Oh, Burson took good care of me, but the fact remains...  I did the QA - they didn't - and, of course, I had to box it up and ship it back to my dealer, who sent me a new unit. There are no serial numbers on Soloists, but I had covertly marked the one I returned to make sure the dealer was actually sending a new one, not a bench repair.   
  
 Burson needs to tighten up their quality control.  Here's hoping the pair of V5 duals on which I'm waiting just happen to be put together correctly.


----------



## MLegend

Wow.......that's actually kind of scary to think a well known company that has a wide variety of audio products can just have that leave the factory and be sent to a paying customer. I'm glad you shared that zilch0md. I wonder if the op amp issues that some people here are having is being contributed by source voltage? Just an assumption.


----------



## willowbrook

I've recently noticed people saying that certain amps do well for planars. Does that mean it won't do well with dyanamic headphones or does the amp lean towards warmer side because some planars are neutral and bright? Amp matching is so confusing because the only thing that you have to rely is on other people's feedback unless you can audition them somewhere.


----------



## tvnosaint

The h10 does very well with dynamic phones. Planars tend to like a lot of current. Their relatively low impedance coupled with need for current can make them anemic with some amps. Prolly covered way better in a forum here somewhere . I could be wrong as I am an electric doofus. Just an observation based on my limited experience . It strikes me that this is a topic discussed in relation to the Valhalla by Schiit.


----------



## mandrake50

willowbrook said:


> I've recently noticed people saying that certain amps do well for planars. Does that mean it won't do well with dyanamic headphones or does the amp lean towards warmer side because some planars are neutral and bright? Amp matching is so confusing because the only thing that you have to rely is on other people's feedback unless you can audition them somewhere.


 

 My H10 plays very nicely with any of the dozen or so headphones that I have around here. It does very nicely with the Fidelio X2, HD 600 and 650 as well as the THxx, HP50 etc.
 I think a previous poster had a good thought, it does well with planar magnetic headphones at least in part because it can deliver the power that they need to sound good. It is not, however, limited to sounding good with Planars.
 It sounds particularly good with the HE 560 becomes the slight warmth knocks down the  slight peakiness that some find objectionable.


----------



## olek

Yes, H10 is true 'universal soldier', IMHO, although it shines its brightest with planars. In layman's terms (I am a layman in electrical engineering), amps apply some AC voltage to headphones. Headphones have some resistance (and since this AC resistance is different from would-be-DC resistance, it is called 'impedance'). Voltage over resistance generates some current, and if resistance/impedance is low, that means current is high. Some amps are happy to apply pretty high AC voltage to the hard-to-drive headphones, as long as they do not consume much current - Bottlehead Crack would be of those. And when you try to put this amp into mode where in supplies a lot of current (by plugging planars into it), you push amp into not-so-kosher area where its dynamics suffer and distortions rise. In other words, it sounds either not-so-great or piss-poor. Other amps, like H10, are capable of 'grunting' and supplying extra required current without wavering too much off the path of low distortions. Of course, if you try to weld metals with their output, you may find out that they do not have that much 'grunt'. Or you may make same discovery trying headphones that require giant amounts of current (HE6?). Likely attempt to drive loudspeakers with H10 will not sound too great either. Everything in this world is relative, and all amps have their 'sweet spots' and limitations.
  
 H10 covers wide array of headphones with such aplomb, that it becomes trouble. It kills my desire to keep experimenting with Bottlehead Crack, which is a great amp, but is more of a one-trick-pony: works well only with low-current headphones (does not matter if that is because they are high impedance/voltage, like DT880, or just very high sensitivity, like T70).
  
 H10 does not do quite its best with headphones that require extra high voltage swings (600 Ohm impedance), but it is still pretty good and gets a 'passing grade' even on that test.
 It's noise floor with uber-high-sensitivity IEMs is not so great - probably its only real limitation. Anything else it does well - especially after some simple opamp upgrades.
  
 Based on the content of this thread it can also work as a spectacular simulator of campfire/fireworks sounds if you outfit it with Burson's discrete opamps. It truly is a wondrous universal device.


----------



## wwmhf

olek said:


> Yes, H10 is true 'universal soldier', IMHO, although it shines its brightest with planars. In layman's terms (I am a layman in electrical engineering), amps apply some AC voltage to headphones. Headphones have some resistance (and since this AC resistance is different from would-be-DC resistance, it is called 'impedance'). Voltage over resistance generates some current, and if resistance/impedance is low, that means current is high. Some amps are happy to apply pretty high AC voltage to the hard-to-drive headphones, as long as they do not consume much current - Bottlehead Crack would be of those. And when you try to put this amp into mode where in supplies a lot of current (by plugging planars into it), you push amp into not-so-kosher area where its dynamics suffer and distortions rise. In other words, it sounds either not-so-great or piss-poor. Other amps, like H10, are capable of 'grunting' and supplying extra required current without wavering too much off the path of low distortions. Of course, if you try to weld metals with their output, you may find out that they do not have that much 'grunt'. Or you may make same discovery trying headphones that require giant amounts of current (HE6?). Likely attempt to drive loudspeakers with H10 will not sound too great either. Everything in this world is relative, and all amps have their 'sweet spots' and limitations.
> 
> H10 covers wide array of headphones with such aplomb, that it becomes trouble. It kills my desire to keep experimenting with Bottlehead Crack, which is a great amp, but is more of a one-trick-pony: works well only with low-current headphones (does not matter if that is because they are high voltage, like DT880, or just very high sensitivity, like T70).
> 
> ...


 
  
 I enjoyed reading this and agreed with all the observations about H10, especially its behavior when used with high impedance phones like DT880.


----------



## normanl

Does H10 supply enough power to drive DT880-600 ohm, and what is the optimum gain setting ? Or does DT880-600 match better with tube amps, such as Little Dot MK IV SE? Thanks for any input.


----------



## jaywillin

normanl said:


> Does H10 supply enough power to drive DT880-600 ohm, and what is the optimum gain setting ? Or does DT880-600 match better with tube amps, such as Little Dot MK IV SE? Thanks for any input.


 
 plenty of power, i had the dt880 600ohm, i have my h10 right in the middle, whatever that is, lol


----------



## d4rkch1ld

normanl said:


> Does H10 supply enough power to drive DT880-600 ohm, and what is the optimum gain setting ? Or does DT880-600 match better with tube amps, such as Little Dot MK IV SE? Thanks for any input.


 

 I plugged it in just for you. Gain setting is at +6 and it's louder then my HE 560 so it has more then enogh power to drive it. I also own MK IV SE but would need to do some A/B to really tell u which sounds better to me but i think Little Dot would win.


----------



## jaywillin

jaywillin said:


> plenty of power, i had the dt880 600ohm, i have my h10 right in the middle, *whatever that is*, lol


 
  
  


d4rkch1ld said:


> I plugged it in just for you.* Gain setting is at +6* and it's louder then my HE 560 so it has more then enogh power to drive it. I also own MK IV SE but would need to do some A/B to really tell u which sounds better to me but i think Little Dot would win.


 
 +6 is where i had my gain set


----------



## normanl

jaywillin said:


> plenty of power, i had the dt880 600ohm, i have my h10 right in the middle, whatever that is, lol


 
 What is your gain setting in H10? It appears that I don't need to purchase tube amp.


----------



## jaywillin

normanl said:


> What is your gain setting in H10? It appears that I don't need to purchase tube amp.


 
 +6
 no, you wouldn't NEED a tube amp, but tubes are nice


----------



## normanl

jaywillin said:


> +6 is where i had my gain set


 
 Sorry that I somehow did not see your answer on the gain setting. Thank you. I'd appreciate much if you AB H10 and LD MK IV SE with DT880-600 and let me know the result, for the current sale of LD MK IV SE on Massdrop will end tomorrow. If it match better than H10, I'll buy it.


----------



## jaywillin

normanl said:


> Sorry that I somehow did not see your answer on the gain setting. Thank you. I'd appreciate much if you AB H10 and LD MK IV SE with DT880-600 and let me know the result, for the current sale of LD MK IV SE on Massdrop will end tomorrow. If it match better than H10, I'll buy it.


 
 sorry, i've never heard the  ld mk iv se


----------



## tommo21

+6 in Gain is actually +14db,as standard gain is 8db with no switches engaged. Max gain is 20db if +12 is toggled.


----------



## wwmhf

normanl said:


> Does H10 supply enough power to drive DT880-600 ohm, and what is the optimum gain setting ? Or does DT880-600 match better with tube amps, such as Little Dot MK IV SE? Thanks for any input.


 
  
 H10 does bring some life into my DT880 compared with some of my other amps. However,  DT880-600 is picky and I think it sounds better on amps such as Valhalla 2.


----------



## tvnosaint

I'd add that if you want tubes in your chain, do it in the amp. Tube dacs run pretty expensive. At least the ones I know about .tube buffer is an add on possibility .


----------



## Koolpep

Happy to report that my old and trusted H10 will re re-acquired from its current owner (I agreed on first dips) - so yeah, I will be swabbing on the MS Gustard again soon.

Now since I owned it the whole opamp rolling craze started so, man, do I have to catch up with things now. 

Cheers,
K


----------



## olek

Hello @Koolpep - welcome back!
  
 Yes, there is quite some info here about opamp swabbing, that is right!


----------



## wwmhf

normanl said:


> Sorry that I somehow did not see your answer on the gain setting. Thank you. I'd appreciate much if you AB H10 and LD MK IV SE with DT880-600 and let me know the result, for the current sale of LD MK IV SE on Massdrop will end tomorrow. If it match better than H10, I'll buy it.


 
  
 LD MK IV SE might have a better probability to sound better through DT880-600 and LD MK IV SE does have a good reputation. In addition, the price on Massdrop is amazing. My only concern is the availability of the tube (correct me if I am wrong about this, please)


----------



## olek

normanl said:


> Does H10 supply enough power to drive DT880-600 ohm, and what is the optimum gain setting ? Or does DT880-600 match better with tube amps, such as Little Dot MK IV SE? Thanks for any input.


 
  
 Listening to DT880-600 right now on my newly re-cabled/re-sourced system, and they sound slightly better to me out of BH Crack/Speedball than H10, but difference is so small I can not even put it together well... a bit more musical? a tiny bit better defined bass slam? tiny bit shinier highs? Of course, it is all subject to tubes/opamps used, and again - difference is miniscule. Interconnects used to feed an amp will make much bigger difference than that. Seriously. And as for volume, H10 can drive DT880 loud enough to damage your eardrums.
  
 Surprisingly, I find now that I prefer T70 out of Crack compared to H10, and difference is a bit larger than that with DT880. Highs have noticeably more sparkle and lows are ... more 'taut', overall music has better definition on good recordings. Most likely those sparkly highs will become a curse on bad recordings, and for marathon listening, H10 probably is still a better/safer choice. Still, for good recording and shorter sessions... Crack + T70 is seriously good sound.
  
 On the other hand, Crack + 400i is really bad, and H10 + 400i is sublime.
  
 Synergy be damned.


----------



## Koolpep

olek said:


> Listening to DT880-600 right now on my newly re-cabled/re-sourced system, and they sound slightly better to me out of BH Crack/Speedball than H10, but difference is so small I can not even put it together well... a bit more musical? a tiny bit better defined bass slam? tiny bit shinier highs? Of course, it is all subject to tubes/opamps used, and again - difference is miniscule. Interconnects used to feed an amp will make much bigger difference than that. Seriously. And as for volume, H10 can drive DT880 loud enough to damage your eardrums.
> 
> Surprisingly, I find now that I prefer T70 out of Crack compared to H10, and difference is a bit larger than that with DT880. Highs have noticeably more sparkle and lows are ... more 'taut', overall music has better definition on good recordings. Most likely those sparkly highs will become a curse on bad recordings, and for marathon listening, H10 probably is still a better/safer choice. Still, for good recording and shorter sessions... Crack + T70 is seriously good sound.
> 
> ...


 

 My experience too with the HD650 and T90. +1
  
 But for the Crack with 400i - the crack has an output impedance of 150 Ohm - driving headphones with 50 Ohms or less most likely ends with them sounding like poop.
  
 The Crack is made for high impedance cans; 250 Ohms and up. It also has not much power in the lower Ohm range....
  
 However, depending on your headphones, some do work ok without the rule of thumb of 1:8 damping factor. (meaning the output impedance of the amp should be 1/8th of the headphones impedance).
  
 cheers,
 K


----------



## jaywillin

wwmhf said:


> LD MK IV SE might have a better probability to sound better through DT880-600 and LD MK IV SE does have a good reputation. In addition, the price on Massdrop is amazing. My only concern is the* availability of the tube* (correct me if I am wrong about this, please)


 
  
 there are various ways to get tubes, new, and NOS


----------



## BassDigger

normanl said:


> *Does H10 supply enough power to drive* DT880-600 ohm, and what is the *optimum gain setting* *?* Or does DT880-600 match better with tube amps, such as Little Dot MK IV SE? Thanks for any input.


 
  
 This is the H10's key strength. No, not excellent synergy with the DT880, but it's ability to drive virtually any headphone; whether the headphone needs current (low impedance <100ohm) or voltage (high impedance >150ohm), the H10 can pump out the required electricity, volts and/or current. It's only with the most demanding 'phones (HE6), that need speaker amp levels of power, that you'd be better off with another amp, for electrical power/drive reasons.
  
 Does the H10 have good synergy, as in match well sonically, with ?????? headphones? That's another conversation.
  
 Gain setting (DIP switches), on the H10, has nothing to with changing the actual electrical driving abilities (and should not be confused with the adjustable output impedance, that some amps have), as I understand it. It just changes the pre amplification, inside the amp.
 The purpose is to give you adjustment in the usable volume range, for different sensitivity 'phones (or IEMs). E.g. with some uber sensitive 'phones, you could have a usable volume range of just up to around the 8 O'clock position (9 O'clock would be too loud). This would only allow you about 30 degrees of turn in your volume knob. This would severely limit your fine tuning of the volume level. The DIP switches (gain setting) allows you to find a setting so you can maitain a 'normal' range (e.g. 8 to 1 O'clock) of volume control, with the different types of 'phones, that this amp can drive.
 On top of this, some people have found a difference in sound signature, between the different settings.
  


tvnosaint said:


> I'd add that if you want tubes in your chain, do it in the amp. Tube dacs run pretty expensive. At least the ones I know about .tube buffer is an add on possibility .


 
  
 The problem is that tube output stages, in dacs, are rare and therefore, expensive. There are many more tube amps available. But, to get a good tube amp also isn't cheap. 
  
 A tube buffer is another idea. It's a bit like a tubed amp or dac output. Read again: 'tube*d*'. It depends what the tubes are doing. A tube amp (or a tube output stage) means that the tubes are a working part of the signal path; generally replacing what a transistor/solid state component would be doing. A tube*d* component is more like something added (such as a tube buffer). Perhaps to 'add some tube magic to the sound'. It's not the same thing, and is generally there to make up for some underlying weakness/problem/unpleasantness in the signal path.
  
 But saying that, perhaps a tube buffer (an additional component between source and H10 amp) would be a good idea, for some. The reason is the issues that some have with getting the best out of the H10's input; some people have found that double amping helps, where actually, the second amp is acting as the buffer amp, helping the input into the H10. This is a tube buffer's design purpose. But, as I said; this is to overcome an existing problem. A proper solution is to have a better output stage (in the dac) and/or a better input stage, in the amp. Not extra components (buffers).
  
 Generally though, proper tube components are a good idea; tubes have a lot of advantages over solid state (transistors) which, when properly implemented, should give better sq (more natural and realistic, not a '_tube_' sound!).
  


koolpep said:


> My experience too with the HD650 and T90. +1
> 
> But for the Crack with 400i - the crack has an output impedance of 150 Ohm - driving headphones with 50 Ohms or less most likely ends with them sounding like poop.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Welcome back.
  
 I can't remember; do we know the output impedance of the H10? (Annoyingly, amp manufacturers ALWAYS quote the advised transducer input impedance, where it says "output impedance"!!!).
 Well whatever. It's sure to be quite low, hence it's generally good synergy with planars, and well beyond any 1:8 rule of thumb, for higher impedance Senns and Beyers etc.


----------



## Koolpep

bassdigger said:


> Welcome back.
> 
> I can't remember; do we know the output impedance of the H10? (Annoyingly, amp manufacturers ALWAYS quote the advised transducer input impedance, where it says "output impedance"!!!).
> Well whatever. It's sure to be quite low, hence it's generally good synergy with planars, and well beyond any 1:8 rule of thumb, for higher impedance Senns and Beyers etc.


 
  
 EDIT: Please disregard my maths skills below. As @Peter78 pointed out, the output impedance is *0.125 Ohm (lower than 1)* if the specs mentions on AliExpress are correct.
  
 I always assumed it was 10 Ohm but I found this on an ad on aliexpress: 

Damping Factor :> 400 @ 50Ω
  
Which would imply lower than 8 Ohms.... 
  
 Good enough, indeed.
  
 cheers,
 K


----------



## Peter78

koolpep said:


> I always assumed it was 10 Ohm but I found this on an ad on aliexpress:
> 
> Damping Factor :> 400 @ 50Ω
> 
> ...


 
  
 FYI, you are flipping the numerator and the denominator in your calculations.  The H10's output impedance would be 50ohm/400 = 0.125ohm (1/8 ohm).


----------



## Koolpep

peter78 said:


> FYI, you are flipping the numerator and the denominator in your calculations.  The H10's output impedance would be 50ohm/400 = 0.125ohm (1/8 ohm).


 

 *facepalm*
  
 Indeed. Hahaha, that was stupid.I will edit my post so it won't stand there for eternity showing my mathematical prowess. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Thanks, Peter!


----------



## wwmhf

jaywillin said:


> there are various ways to get tubes, new, and NOS


 
  
 Can you be more specific? I know that you can always buy the needed tubes. However, because they are less popular, they are usually quite expensive compared with tubes used in other amps. Again, since I do not have this particular amp, I might be wrong about this impression formed when I was researching for this amp.


----------



## jaywillin

wwmhf said:


> Can you be more specific? I know that you can always buy the needed tubes. However, because they are less popular, they are usually quite expensive compared with tubes used in other amps. Again, since I do not have this particular amp, I might be wrong about this impression formed when I was researching for this amp.


 
 changing the rear, power tubes, really doesn't change up the sound two much, most of that occurs in changing the driver tubes
M8100/CV4010 = * 5654 ,6AK5 *
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-matched-pair-Sylvania-JAN-5654-6AK5W-CV4010-black-plate-preamp-tubes-1975-/201349372034?hash=item2ee15b9882:g:togAAOSwhwdVU1cH
  
 these are some of the best
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/EF95-6AK5-BEST-VINTAGE-5-000Hr-6J1P-EV-10-NEW-NOS/361198152261?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Dcf328bfa98c048abaf6228b719a91ef9%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D252201046714
  
 these are just some examples, but there are a lot under $50
 having said all that, the h10 is a much more versatile amp


----------



## wwmhf

jaywillin said:


> changing the rear, power tubes, really doesn't change up the sound two much, most of that occurs in changing the driver tubes
> M8100/CV4010 = * 5654 ,6AK5 *
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-matched-pair-Sylvania-JAN-5654-6AK5W-CV4010-black-plate-preamp-tubes-1975-/201349372034?hash=item2ee15b9882:g:togAAOSwhwdVU1cH
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the information. If I recall it correctly, the impression I got some time ago was that the power tubes for LD MKIV/SE were rare and expensive.


----------



## jaywillin

wwmhf said:


> Thanks for the information. If I recall it correctly, the impression I got some time ago was that the power tubes for LD MKIV/SE were rare and expensive.


 
 check out this thread
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide


----------



## wwmhf

jaywillin said:


> check out this thread
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide


 
  
 Thanks again for these updates.


----------



## willowbrook

Good news. H10 is on Massdrop. 289.99 without shipping and that price unlocks with just 9 people


----------



## wwmhf

willowbrook said:


> Good news. H10 is on Massdrop. 289.99 without shipping and that price unlocks with just 9 people


 
  
 Shipping is $10 extra, but still a very good price.


----------



## normanl

wwmhf said:


> Shipping is $10 extra, but still a very good price.


 
 So now the price of both H10 and LD MK IV SE is identical. Which one is the better deal with respect to the SQ?  By the way, the sale of LD MK IV SE will end today.


----------



## wwmhf

normanl said:


> So now the price of both H10 and LD MK IV SE is identical. Which one is the better deal with respect to the SQ?  By the way, the sale of LD MK IV SE will end today.


 
  
 One important factor is what kind of phones you plan to use with the amp you want to buy.
  
 H10 works very well with low impedance phones such as Phillips X2 and AKG K7XX, and it works acceptably well with high impedance phones such as Beyer DT880 and T1 with 600 ohm. However, LD MK IV SE works better with high impedance phones.


----------



## normanl

wwmhf said:


> One important factor is what kind of phones you plan to use with the amp you want to buy.
> 
> H10 works very well with low impedance phones such as Phillips X2 and AKG K7XX, and it works acceptably well with high impedance phones such as Beyer DT880 and T1 with 600 ohm. However, LD MK IV SE works better with high impedance phones.


 
 Does it mean that H10 and LD MK IV SE complement each other when one has both low & high impedances headphones. Is it a good idea to own both amps?


----------



## wwmhf

normanl said:


> Does it mean that H10 and LD MK IV SE complement each other when one has both low & high impedances headphones. Is it a good idea to own both amps?


 
  
 Yes, this is just my opinion and it was what I did (I do not have the LD MK IV SE, but something very similar)


----------



## d4rkch1ld

+1. I own both, love both. Each has it's own strenghts.


----------



## normanl

d4rkch1ld said:


> +1. I own both, love both. Each has it's own strenghts.


 
 I  notice that you also have DT880 (600 ohm?). Which amp does it match better?


----------



## braaam

Did anyone notice a big difference between Burson SS v5 half & full boat?


----------



## d4rkch1ld

normanl said:


> I  notice that you also have DT880 (600 ohm?). Which amp does it match better?


 

 Little Dot.


----------



## jazzwave

peter78 said:


> FYI, you are flipping the numerator and the denominator in your calculations.  The H10's output impedance would be 50ohm/400 = 0.125ohm (1/8 ohm).


 
  
 Forgive me for nubie question:
 What is the impact of low or high output impedance (like H10 has 0.125 Ohm) to sound?
 My headphones have: 32 and 300 Ohm impedance, so how to choose proper amp for these headphone?
  
 ~ron~


----------



## BassDigger

jazzwave said:


> Forgive me for nubie question:
> What is the impact of low or high output impedance (like H10 has 0.125 Ohm) to sound?
> My headphones have: 32 and 300 Ohm impedance, so how to choose proper amp for these headphone?
> 
> ~ron~


 
  
 The usual rules apply; for the layperson, knowing figures and trying to do the maths only complicates things, unnecessarily!
 As discussed on many threads, including this one, some amps are good with low impedance 'phones, and others with high impedance. Everything else is down to taste, preference and, of course, cost.


----------



## d4rkch1ld

jazzwave said:


> Forgive me for nubie question:
> What is the impact of low or high output impedance (like H10 has 0.125 Ohm) to sound?
> My headphones have: 32 and 300 Ohm impedance, so how to choose proper amp for these headphone?
> 
> ~ron~


 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headphone_amplifier
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor


----------



## MLegend

Hey BassDigger, any impressions on the bursons?


----------



## wwmhf

braaam said:


> Did anyone notice a big difference between Burson SS v5 half & full boat?


 
  
 The effects of the single channel Burson is more obvious than the dual channel Burson.


----------



## braaam

wwmhf said:


> The effects of the single channel Burson is more obvious than the dual channel Burson.




Can you describe the difference?


----------



## wwmhf

braaam said:


> Can you describe the difference?


 
  
 When I put the single channel Bursons in, I immediately tell myself that I really liked how they made the amp sound. When I put the dual channel Bursons in, I needed to make an effort and go back and forth to tell what were the differences and how much.


----------



## braaam

wwmhf said:


> When I put the single channel Bursons in, I immediately tell myself that I really liked how they made the amp sound. When I put the dual channel Bursons in, I needed to make an effort and go back and forth to tell what were the differences and how much.




Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know! I'll stick to the singles for now.


----------



## BassDigger

mlegend said:


> Hey BassDigger, any impressions on the bursons?


 
  
 Erm, sorry! I haven't forgotten. I'll post some general impressions, along with some obligatory pics, within the next week. I just haven't been doing any listening since the first few days of fitting them, and I want to have a fresh perception, in my head. But please don't anticipate too much, from me; there's improvement, but I'm finding it difficult to quantify what differences the V5S has made.


----------



## MLegend

No rush......I was just curious to hear what your initial impressions were. To be honest man, take as long as you need considering the 100hr burn in they apparently need. I'll probably give in and buy them here in a few days just to hear for myself. Hopefully I don't run into crackling like a lot of others have.


----------



## zilch0md

d4rkch1ld said:


> (snip)
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor


 
  
 Thanks for this - I very much enjoyed reading it.


----------



## zilch0md

canthearyou said:


> Ordered mine Nov.30th. Received them yesterday.* I did not get a single email from Burson.*


 
  
 Me neither.
  
 Why can't they acknowledge payment and later, shipment?  
  
 Answer: Doing so requires empathy and unprofitable labor.
  
 I ordered mine on 29 December. Adding 12 days (how long you waited), I'm guessing mine will be here on Monday, January 11, but perhaps tomorrow, Saturday.


----------



## tommo21

zilch0md said:


> Me neither.
> 
> Why can't they acknowledge payment and later, shipment?
> 
> ...


 
 Must be a US shipment problem...I got mine in 4 days, shipping from Australia to Norway. I actually think that's a longer route than at least the west coast in the US.
  
 I haven't actually done any critical listening since I got them, but I've burned them in for about 130 hours, so they're ready to use. There's no problems with mine as for now, regarding the earlier mentioned faulty ones.


----------



## zilch0md

^ That's good news - that you're not having any problems.  
  
 I feel as if I've rolled the dice and I'm waiting for them to come to a stop.  Will it be a 7 or snake eyes?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Meanwhile...
  
 I'd love to visit Norway some day.  (Sigh...)
  
 Have you ever been to Lofoten?
  




  
 Photo by Yaya (http://handluggageonly.co.uk/2015/11/20/10-reasons-why-you-need-to-visit-the-lofoten-islands-in-norway/)


----------



## jazzwave

jazzwave said:


> I take out A opamp , no sound came out from both side...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Updated,
 After 3 days honeymoon time  without any problem, popping/crackling sound occur again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 Now came from left side, this annoying sound occur after one hours amp running (probably heat issue?)
  
 I believe one of opamp has issue, I sent email to Alex (Burson) and hope get their respon asap.
  
 Well..V5 is a nice product (beautiful sound)  but has QA/QC issue.
  
  
 ~ron~


----------



## tommo21

zilch0md said:


> ^ That's good news - that you're not having any problems.
> 
> I feel as if I've rolled the dice and I'm waiting for them to come to a stop.  Will it be a 7 or snake eyes?
> 
> ...


 
 I've not been to Lofoten, but is on the list of things to do. I've been further north and flown a plane between the mountains in lofoten, but in bad weather only. Northern Norway is extremely beautiful in the summer especially. The rest of the time it's almost completely whiteout


----------



## zilch0md

tommo21 said:


> I've not been to Lofoten, but is on the list of things to do. I've been further north and flown a plane between the mountains in lofoten, but in bad weather only. *Northern Norway is extremely beautiful in the summer especially. The rest of the time it's almost completely whiteout  *


 
  
 Haha!  Thanks for the warning!


----------



## zilch0md

jazzwave said:


> Updated,
> After 3 days honeymoon time  without any problem, popping/crackling sound occur again
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ugggh!  
  
 Every indication, however, is that they will take good care of us, after the fact.


----------



## wwmhf

tommo21 said:


> Must be a US shipment problem...I got mine in 4 days, shipping from Australia to Norway. I actually think that's a longer route than at least the west coast in the US.
> 
> I haven't actually done any critical listening since I got them, but I've burned them in for about 130 hours, so they're ready to use. There's no problems with mine as for now, regarding the earlier mentioned faulty ones.


 
  
 4 days to Norway, that was fast! Mine took about 2 weeks from Aus to USA


----------



## railrus

anyone has problem with their opamp purchases? i order on the 24th dec for a pair of the singles and it arrived in Singapore ..... except it was a dual opamp! 
  
 GRRRR.......!


----------



## wwmhf

What??? I wish they had been more careful. Even though people at Burson are nice, mistakes like this cost time and money.


----------



## tvnosaint

I got mine in 10 days to New Orleans from Oz. I'm thinking the newer orders are delayed because of the QC issues. Just a guess. Mine are a ok. But I ordered in November a little before all the faulty units started popping up. The company seems to take care of the problem units but a little communication would prolly ease the pain a bit.


----------



## wwmhf

The holiday season also delays the shipping.


----------



## canthearyou

railrus said:


> anyone has problem with their opamp purchases? i order on the 24th dec for a pair of the singles and it arrived in Singapore ..... except it was a dual opamp!
> 
> GRRRR.......!




Those are probably mine. Lol


----------



## genclaymore

that would be something, you end up with his V5-OPA-S's. Then you two ship the correct items to each other.


----------



## canthearyou

genclaymore said:


> that would be something, you end up with his V5-OPA-S's. Then you two ship the correct items to each other.




I ordered my duals on the same day. Still waiting. Probably within the next couple days.


----------



## Yeskey

Ordered a full boat on the 23rd of December, they were on vacation, so I'm expecting mine the latest on Tuesday. California. I wish they had tracking.


----------



## johangrb

zilch0md said:


> Ugggh!
> 
> Every indication, however, is that they will take good care of us, after the fact.


 
 +1 -Burson support is responsive and effective. They're paying for my return shipping of 2 V5 Singles and shipping replacements asap. Excellent service!!


----------



## zilch0md

johangrb said:


> +1 -Burson support is responsive and effective. They're paying for my return shipping of 2 V5 Singles and shipping replacements asap. Excellent service!!


 
  
 Hey, that's good news. Maybe they've actually tested the replacements they're sending you - to protect themselves from having to do this again, with you, at least. 
  
 Update: I apologize for being so cynical.  I'm actually very pleased that they eventually take good care of their customers, but I have been working for many years as a senior QA engineer for a Japanese electronics manufacturer that everyone here would recognize.  I have very little patience for companies that ship product without testing it first.  
  
 Sony, a competitor for whom I do not work, continues to set the bar. HiFiMan is at rock bottom, in my opinion.  Burson is somewhere in between.


----------



## canthearyou

zilch0md said:


> Hey, that's good news. Maybe they've actually tested the replacements they're sending you - to protect themselves from having to do this again, with you, at least.
> 
> Update: I apologize for being so cynical.  I'm actually very pleased that they eventually take good care of their customers, but I have been working for many years as a senior QA engineer for a Japanese electronics manufacturer that everyone here would recognize.  I have very little patience for companies that ship product without testing it first.
> 
> Sony, a competitor for whom I do not work, continues to set the bar. HiFiMan is at rock bottom, in my opinion.  Burson is somewhere in between.




It appears that the op-amps are failing after a fair amount of use. Something that could fail at X amount of hours may be tough to test.


----------



## zilch0md

canthearyou said:


> It appears that the op-amps are failing after a fair amount of use. Something that could fail at X amount of hours may be tough to test.


 
  
 I hear you. Perhaps they are doing at least a quick test of each and every V5, but if failure rates are high enough that you have multiple customers posting their disappointment in a thread like this, the testing is inadequate - it's time to improve the QA process.
  
 I'm also open to the possibility that the V5 simply isn't as compatible with any and all devices where the op-amps they say it can substitute manage to operate without difficulty.  
  
 But dripping glue?
  

  
 Cropped from a photo posted by genclaymore
  
 Still waiting for mine to arrive, I ask myself, "Why does buying something have to be such an adventure?"


----------



## genclaymore

yea i had one with dripping epoxy, I hoping that doesn't happened again. maybe in the future they improve it so it work longer or much better without failing or another kind of epoxy. Hopefully it doesn't cause my gustard H10 to explode in my face later on.


----------



## MLegend

canthearyou said:


> It appears that the op-amps are failing after a fair amount of use. Something that could fail at X amount of hours may be tough to test.


 
 Especially when they recommend 100 hours of burn in. I would be pretty displeased if my bursons started to fail right as they were about to hit the 100 hour mark. This failure rate is ridiculous.


----------



## wwmhf

Why Bursons opamps fail is an interesting question because solid state parts are generally well known these days for their reliability.


----------



## canthearyou

I've been getting ready to move the past few weeks and haven't had much time to sit and listen to music. During this evenings listening session I noticed a scratching sound in the background of songs. I started to panic thinking the Bursons are failing. I sat and thought about what did I change or what else could it be. I remembered I switched the output in Foobar to Wasapi. I decided to switch it back to the current ASIO driver and bam, that fixed it. 

FYI: I'm using the X12 as DAC.


----------



## moriez

Was about to say that it's a good time for Burson to come in here with some soothing words. Going back in the thread they already did that some weeks ago. I quote their response as a reminder.
  
 Luckily I haven't had an issue with any of their op-amps well passed 100 hours now.
  


burson audio said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Please allow us to clarify 2 aspects relating to recent discussions.
> 
> ...


----------



## willowbrook

Been lurking this thread for a while and decided to get the H10 for my HE-560, but I have no DAC right now. I am on a budget of $200~300, can anyone recommend a DAC that matches well with the H10? I've seen people who said they couldn't hear the difference between sub $200 DAC and over $500 DAC, I've also seen people who said there is a huge difference between them, I don't know what to trust at this point 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. A lot of things tend to be exaggerated on here, so if anyone who has actual experience in comparing some DAC I would appreciate any recommendation. I was thinking about modi 2U if anyone has experience, thanks.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

willowbrook said:


> Been lurking this thread for a while and decided to get the H10 for my HE-560, but I have no DAC right now. I am on a budget of $200~300, can anyone recommend a DAC that matches well with the H10? I've seen people who said they couldn't hear the difference between sub $200 DAC and over $500 DAC, I've also seen people who said there is a huge difference between them, I don't know what to trust at this point
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I use mine with an Epiphany Acoustics' E-DAC (may be better known as Objective 2 ODAC revB in the US). A lot of the reviews for it seem to point to what you're saying that there is very little difference between much more expensive DACs and the ones which can be had for around $200.
 I haven't had the pleasure of doing any comparisons, besides from with an older Fiio E07K which I can't remember how it compared, but as I kept the EDAC I must have preferred it.
 I don't think a more expensive DAC could offer much more to what I already hear to be honest. It could also be argued the more congenial partner for the H10 would be the X12, so a few reasonably priced options there.


----------



## genclaymore

The gustard X12 pairs very nicely with the gustard H10 with my HE-500, But i used to own the bifrost uber*(not the brand new one) *with the H10, I didn't like the combo as much til I swapped out the op-amps with different ones which made my results with the uber enjoyable, not the one's that are in my sig but different pairs of op-amps, these came later with the X12 in the mix. I lost the stock op-amp's so i don't remember what I didn't like about them with the uber, I also didn't try the stock op-amps with the X12 because of that. There is a brand new bifrost which replaces the uber but I don't know how it would sound paired with the H10.


----------



## zilch0md

willowbrook said:


> Been lurking this thread for a while and decided to get the H10 for my HE-560, but I have no DAC right now. I am on a budget of $200~300, can anyone recommend a DAC that matches well with the H10? I've seen people who said they couldn't hear the difference between sub $200 DAC and over $500 DAC, I've also seen people who said there is a huge difference between them, I don't know what to trust at this point
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 For $299, you can get the versatile Oppo HA-2, to serve double-duty as a desktop DAC *and* as a portable DAC/amp - a lot of bang for your buck. It has an awesome ESS9018K2M DAC, that I've come to greatly admire, even for use with the HD800 - with the right amp.  The Oppo HA-2 will accept USB input as well as supporting iOS, Android, and Sony Walkman sources. It lacks Coaxial and Toslink inputs, but I'm done with those, ever since getting my hands on an Uptone Audio USB Regen.
  
 I'm not reluctant to consider a "portable" DAC/ampsfor use as a desktop DAC. There are people out there using the $699 Hugo Mojo portable DAC wth their HiFi systems (for its warmth and smooth treble). 
  
 Mike


----------



## tvnosaint

People seem to be enjoying the jds element. I'd keep my eye out for a used Constantine from mhdt. You'd get a taste of multibit tech there . Usually around $200. I don't like a cold sounding dac with the h10. To me it benefits from a more musical dac.


----------



## MGbert

willowbrook said:


> Been lurking this thread for a while and decided to get the H10 for my HE-560, but I have no DAC right now. I am on a budget of $200~300, can anyone recommend a DAC that matches well with the H10? I've seen people who said they couldn't hear the difference between sub $200 DAC and over $500 DAC, I've also seen people who said there is a huge difference between them, I don't know what to trust at this point
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 For Christmas, I bought my girlfriend a pair of V-Moda Crossfade M100s and a FiiO E10K USB DAC/Amp dongle to use with it.  I just auditioned the Fiio with the HiFiMan HE-400i's and it does a VERY respectable job as DAC feeding my stock Gustard H10 compared to my Parasound zDAC - as in 95-98% detail retrieval compared to the Parasound.  It also is a better headphone amp than the one built in to the Parasound, and drives the HE-400i's very well.  Color me impressed!  I'd actually recommend getting a Fiio as a combination portable solution and desktop DAC while researching other options - then saving up for them.    Sorry about your wallet - but this would give it a temporary reprieve at least, not to mention a portable solution for the future.


----------



## tvnosaint

Fiio must've stepped up their game. I heard the e10 and the zdac and the zdac crushed it a year ago . The geek out v2 is another similar product and that thing is fantastic. Used ones around $200. There may be issues with durability there though . I enjoy mine immensely even though I have a much more expensive r-2r dac in my desk top system. I liked he sound of the fiio, but it wasn't very refined and had a little treble glare. The LH pulse I didn't really like with the h10 and he560. I can't remember why though


----------



## Vanusk

So it's been about 7 years since I upgraded to a Nuforce Icon HDP (amp/dac) and dt990s from an Asus Xonar Essence STX which I fried accidentally, and HD555s that sound like tin cans compared to dt990s.  They're both still going strong even after very heavy use, but I think it's time to upgrade.
  
 I don't expect anyone to know exactly how the amp from the Nuforce compares to the H10 since it's just so old now, but I'll take estimates . The H10 is pretty cheap on massdrop atm and it'll help pave the way when I upgrade to Audeze LCD2s (hopefully once they fix their QC)
  
 I'd like to still use the DAC from the Nuforce as it's apparently very good (I have no reference personally though) I'm wondering how I connect the Nuforce to an H10?
  
  
 Nuforce

  
  
  
  
 H10
  

  
 After reading about 200+ pages (backwards of course) I'm hoping it'll be a good enough of an upgrade to last me another 5+ years.  Being able to upgrade to Burson amps is a + (as long as they don't melt)


----------



## wwmhf

vanusk said:


> So it's been about 7 years since I upgraded to a Nuforce Icon HDP (amp/dac) and dt990s from an Asus Xonar Essence STX which I fried accidentally, and HD555s that sound like tin cans compared to dt990s.  They're both still going strong even after very heavy use, but I think it's time to upgrade.
> 
> I don't expect anyone to know exactly how the amp from the Nuforce compares to the H10 since it's just so old now, but I'll take estimates . The H10 is pretty cheap on massdrop atm and it'll help pave the way when I upgrade to Audeze LCD2s (hopefully once they fix their QC)
> 
> ...


 
 As an amplifier, I am quite confident that H10 is better than Nuforce and I will not be surprised if H10 is much better.


----------



## zilch0md




----------



## Vanusk

zilch0md said:


> .


 
 You rock.
  
 Edit: found the cables


----------



## MLegend

Damn it! I couldn't resist anymore....just bought the full set of V5s. http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-v5-ss-opamp-mod/ Lets see how long they take to get here.


----------



## zilch0md

You're going for it!


----------



## olek

willowbrook said:


> Been lurking this thread for a while and decided to get the H10 for my HE-560, but I have no DAC right now. I am on a budget of $200~300, can anyone recommend a DAC that matches well with the H10?


 
  
 Here is nontraditional option.
  
 I have got Denon DA-300USB a week ago when it was on deep sale, at the bottom of your price bracket range (down from $500). At first listen, it lacked bass and low-mids pretty badly, making sound thin. After burning it (and my brains) for last 2 days I am starting to really like it. Yes, it is a bit light on bass and is not extremely detailed, that is bad. But if one can get over it, one might discover that soundstage and imaging is to die for (comparing it with m9xx that is having pretty good rep), and musicality is outstanding - it makes pretty much everything sounds great (at least in the genres I care for - classical and jazz). As for bass... it is light, but the silver lining is that it is tighter than anything I have heard so far - very precise and punchy, just do not expect rumbles from it. Built in headphone amp is not too bad either - classical SS sound with no softness (or flabbiness, depending on one's taste) of tube amp; very neutral, does not go to insane loudness, but can drive all headphones I tried fairly well. Very different from H10, but different does not necessarily mean bad.
  
 It might not stay in my 'critical listening' setup, but should be quite nice for 'just enjoying the music' setup.
  
 As for 'synergy', it is not just synergy with H10, but with your ears/brains as well, typically you will know it when you hear it.


----------



## willowbrook

Thanks for all the recommendations, however I'd like something standalone being powered by a wallwart. I guess there aren't many choices sub $200, I might just go for a used modi 2U as a temporary solution. If anyone has better experience, please let me know.


----------



## wwmhf

You can consider some older DACs.


----------



## fritobugger

willowbrook said:


> Thanks for all the recommendations, however I'd like something standalone being powered by a wallwart. I guess there aren't many choices sub $200, I might just go for a used modi 2U as a temporary solution. If anyone has better experience, please let me know.


 
  
 Take a look at the SMSL M8.  It will process most anything you throw at it.  If you can wait for it to Massdrop again it goes very cheaply.


----------



## wwmhf

I really regret that I did not participate the previous massdrop. My DAC are all old, even though still good, I feel that they can be easily bettered by modern ones.


----------



## Vanusk

Just grabbed the H10 off massdrop.  Shame it doesn't ship for 3 weeks!


----------



## fritobugger

vanusk said:


> Just grabbed the H10 off massdrop.  Shame it doesn't ship for 3 weeks!


 
 It is worth the wait.


----------



## wwmhf

The more you mention H10 from Massdrop, the more I want to snatch another one from it.


----------



## Vanusk

wwmhf said:


> The more you mention H10 from Massdrop, the more I want to snatch another one from it.


 
 Fuse them together with some voodoo gypsy magic to make an h20 :O


----------



## Jozurr

You can always get the iDSD nano for $200. Very good DAC on it and pairs well with the H10.


----------



## MLegend

willowbrook said:


> Thanks for all the recommendations, however I'd like something standalone being powered by a wallwart. I guess there aren't many choices sub $200, I might just go for a used modi 2U as a temporary solution. If anyone has better experience, please let me know.


 
 I'd say just go ahead and get the modi 2 uber. EXTREMELY good price/performance, neutral, all of the features you would ever need, wall powered for better noise performance. One of the best if not the best entry level dacs you can buy.


----------



## Venator2033

I use an Aune X1s for my DAC with the H10 and they pair fairly well together and right now for the next two days you can pick it up off massdrop for 200$ and free shipping in the US and it's got a pretty good sounding amp built into it already it can power my HE560's decently enough I've had for about three months now and just love it it plenty input options as well USB,RCA.TOS link,and Coax so your pretty much set as far as input options go.


----------



## canthearyou

18 days and still waiting for my duals from Burson.


----------



## willowbrook

Right now it'a either a modi 2 or SMSL M8 which I've heard good things about w/ H10. Modi 2 is cheap, but I don't want to upgrade in the near future unleas it's something like Bifrost MB. Any thoughts on pairing with H10 and if anyone is willing to sell their M8, please give me a PM  missed the MD sale...


----------



## zilch0md

canthearyou said:


> 18 days and still waiting for my duals from Burson.


 
  
 That means you ordered them on 24 December.  I ordered mine on 29 December.
  
 They were on holiday during that stretch, so we might not see ours for another week or longer. I would expect 26 days to be the maximum (instead of the 12 days I've seen with previous U.S. customers.)
  
 Thanks to the holiday delay, we might get ours on the same day - instead of 5 days apart.
  
 Tick, tock, tick, tock...


----------



## canthearyou

zilch0md said:


> That means you ordered them on 24 December.  I ordered mine on 29 December.
> 
> They were on holiday during that stretch, so we might not see ours for another week or longer. I would expect 26 days to be the maximum (instead of the 12 days I've seen with previous U.S. customers.)
> 
> ...




I am moving this Friday and hopefully my package will be forwarded to the new address.


----------



## zilch0md

I just hope that whenever they do arrive, they're not snapping and crackling and popping or dripping epoxy.


----------



## canthearyou

zilch0md said:


> I just hope that whenever they do arrive, they're not snapping and crackling and popping or dripping epoxy.


 
 There better not be!!


----------



## zilch0md

Haha! I hear you! All we can do is go for the ride. It will end well even if satisfaction is a long time coming, and leaves a bad taste.


----------



## bongieto

Anybody can recommend a good Op amp combination for H10 not including Burson as the price is really steep for me?


----------



## wwmhf

bongieto said:


> Anybody can recommend a good Op amp combination for H10 not including Burson as the price is really steep for me?


 
  
 My configurations:
  
 1st choice: Bursons for the Single channel and LT1364 for the dual channel.
 2nd choice: OPA627 for the Single channel and LT1364 for the dual channel.


----------



## hongant

wwmhf said:


> My configurations:
> 
> 1st choice: Bursons for the Single channel and LT1364 for the dual channel.
> 2nd choice: OPA627 for the Single channel and LT1364 for the dual chan


 
  
 Have you compared LT1364 with LME49720HA  for the dual channel?


----------



## wwmhf

hongant said:


> Have you compared LT1364 with LME49720HA  for the dual channel?


 
  
 Not yet. I have received LME49720s and the needed boards to mount them. However, I haven't got time to mount them. Please stay tuned. 
  
 On the other hand, just by their data sheets, I have a feeling that LT1364 might win in the comparison.


----------



## bongieto

where can i buy these op amps? i searched in amazon and i m getting multiple results with different numbers.


----------



## wwmhf

bongieto said:


> where can i buy these op amps? i searched in amazon and i m getting multiple results with different numbers.


 
  
 Online part store such as 
  
 digikey.com and mouser.com
  
 I used both of them.


----------



## mmlogic

Just got my CAVALLI LC and did a brief comparison with H10 (burson V5 embedded).
 my source is Calyx 192 DAC, balanced signals to LC unbalanced to H10, using ETHER as primary headphone.
 and here’s the initial impression: H10 has better extension on both ends, bigger sound stage, more air, tighter bass, LC is smoother, now I understand why they are named Liquid.
 if you want to relax and enjoy the music for long period, LC is the way to go, but if you really want to push the Ortho cans to their limits, H10 maybe the better choice IMHO.


----------



## canthearyou

mmlogic said:


> Just got my CAVALLI LC and did a brief comparison with H10 (burson V5 embedded).
> my source is Calyx 192 DAC, balanced signals to LC unbalanced to H10, using ETHER as primary headphone.
> and here’s the initial impression: H10 has better extension on both ends, bigger sound stage, more air, tighter bass, LC is smoother, now I understand why they are named Liquid.
> if you want to relax and enjoy the music for long period, LC is the way to go, but if you really want to push the Ortho cans to their limits, H10 maybe the better choice IMHO.


 
 Thats good to hear! I was counting my pennies getting ready to possibly pick up a LC from the classifieds.


----------



## wwmhf

mmlogic said:


> Just got my CAVALLI LC and did a brief comparison with H10 (burson V5 embedded).
> my source is Calyx 192 DAC, balanced signals to LC unbalanced to H10, using ETHER as primary headphone.
> and here’s the initial impression: H10 has better extension on both ends, bigger sound stage, more air, tighter bass, LC is smoother, now I understand why they are named Liquid.
> if you want to relax and enjoy the music for long period, LC is the way to go, but if you really want to push the Ortho cans to their limits, H10 maybe the better choice IMHO.


 
  
 Thanks a lot for sharing your impressions with us.


----------



## BassDigger

mmlogic said:


> Just got my CAVALLI LC and did a brief comparison with H10 (burson V5 embedded).
> my source is Calyx 192 DAC, balanced signals to LC unbalanced to H10, using ETHER as primary headphone.
> and here’s the initial impression: H10 has better extension on both ends, bigger sound stage, more air, tighter bass, LC is smoother, now I understand why they are named Liquid.
> if you want to relax and enjoy the music for long period, LC is the way to go, but if you really want to push the Ortho cans to their limits, H10 maybe the better choice IMHO.


 
  






 Interesting!
  
 Is your new Cavalli properly burnt in? Are you really comparing 'like with like'?
 It may make no difference, but if the LC has the same kind of burn-in changes as some have found with the H10........


----------



## sunneebear

mmlogic said:


> Just got my CAVALLI LC and did a brief comparison with H10 (burson V5 embedded).


 
  
 You're going to need a few more hours on that LC.
  
  
 My impressions of the two.
  
 LC with about 150 hrs.  H10 with full Burson gen 4 somewhere around 1000 hrs.
  
 CD rip ALAC 16/44.1 music.  Ibasso DX80 coax to Matrix mini-i,  balanced and SE to LC and H10.  Ether C
  
 Sound stage, headroom, depth, height, width about the same.  LC is slightly upper mid forward while H10 is slightly upper bass forward.  This makes the LC sound a little more airy and fun but thinner with vocals and strings.  The warmer H10 has a richer vocal and string tone.  Both male and female voices sound fuller.  Vocal vibrato and string instrument vibrations and resonance is easily heard on the H10 but less noticeable on the LC.  Both are equally smooth and without grain.
 I only had the LC for a week and could have kept it much longer but did not want to.  I love the sound of the LC but with the H10 there to A-B I like the sound of the H10 more.  The richer vocals and engaging strings to my ears is more pleasing than the flatter sounding LC.  That warmer H10 also has better bass slam and maybe tighter but that may be because of its warmer tone.  Like the LC sounding like it has more air because it has a brighter tone.  The Burson gen 4 and V5 might be two animals so that may affect the sound, then there's my weird ears so grain of salt and all that.


----------



## canthearyou

sunneebear said:


> You're going to need a few more hours on that LC.
> 
> 
> My impressions of the two.
> ...


 
 Is your H10 balanced?!?!?


----------



## wwmhf

sunneebear said:


> You're going to need a few more hours on that LC.
> 
> 
> My impressions of the two.
> ...


 
  
 Would you please share some details about that extra phone jack on your H10? Who put it in? How? .....


----------



## canthearyou

I know it has a balanced input. Does it keep it balanced all the way up to the output?? It must!


----------



## sunneebear

Not balanced. I just stuck a XLR4 jack on so I can use different cables.


----------



## canthearyou

sunneebear said:


> Not balanced. I just stuck a XLR4 jack on so I can use different cables.


 
 Oh.


----------



## sunneebear

canthearyou said:


> I know it has a balanced input. Does it keep it balanced all the way up to the output?? It must!


Probably not. The dual opamps in the back is suppose the sum the balanced signal before it gets to the amp stage.


----------



## mmlogic

bassdigger said:


> Interesting!
> 
> Is your new Cavalli properly burnt in? Are you really comparing 'like with like'?
> It may make no difference, but if the LC has the same kind of burn-in changes as some have found with the H10........


 
 I don't think so, just got it less than 12 hours.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 impression might change after few days of burnt-in.


----------



## pippen99

bassdigger said:


> Interesting!
> 
> Is your new Cavalli properly burnt in? Are you really comparing 'like with like'?
> It may make no difference, but if the LC has the same kind of burn-in changes as some have found with the H10........


 
 the LC will have little to no burn-in in my experience.  I found the LC to be superior to the H10 in almost every aspect that the H10 has moved along to a new owner.  I only went as far as 897/823 opamp combo so cannot comment on how a full boat Burson setup would compare to the LC.  I found a bigger soundstage and an allover SQ improvement especially on the bottom end.  The LC is just more dynamic for me than the H10!  YMMV!


----------



## Jozurr

sunneebear said:


> Not balanced. I just stuck a XLR4 jack on so I can use different cables.


 
  
  
  
 Thanks for the impressions. How did you stick an XLR jack? I thought SE to XLR jacks weren't possible.


----------



## Koolpep

jozurr said:


> Thanks for the impressions. How did you stick an XLR jack? I thought SE to XLR jacks weren't possible.


 

 Of course, you just connect both grounds of the XLR to one from the SE. It just doesn't make it balanced. it's the same as using this:


 Balanced headphone to single ended amp is no problem. And vice versa. The other way around can shorten and break the amp. Never use a single ended headphone with a balanced output, as you then shorten/cross the grounds.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Jozurr

koolpep said:


> Of course, you just connect both grounds of the XLR to one from the SE. It just doesn't make it balanced. it's the same as using this:
> 
> 
> Balanced headphone to single ended amp is no problem. And vice versa. The other way around can shorten and break the amp. Never use a single ended headphone with a balanced output, as you then shorten/cross the grounds.
> ...


 
  
  
 Aah makes sense. Not sure what I was thinking. Thanks!


----------



## braaam

mmlogic said:


> Just got my CAVALLI LC and did a brief comparison with H10 (burson V5 embedded).
> my source is Calyx 192 DAC, balanced signals to LC unbalanced to H10, using ETHER as primary headphone.
> and here’s the initial impression: H10 has better extension on both ends, bigger sound stage, more air, tighter bass, LC is smoother, now I understand why they are named Liquid.
> if you want to relax and enjoy the music for long period, LC is the way to go, but if you really want to push the Ortho cans to their limits, H10 maybe the better choice IMHO.




I've read here that soundstage improves a lot when you go balanced all the way with the Cavalli. Did you try that?

My H10 went gold last night on massdrop so reading these comparisons makes me very happy!

And it seems that the Burson upgrade is a must to unleash this beast's potential!


----------



## Glow Fish

braaam said:


> I've read here that soundstage improves a lot when you go balanced all the way with the Cavalli. Did you try that?
> 
> My H10 went gold last night on massdrop so reading these comparisons makes me very happy!
> 
> And it seems that the Burson upgrade is a must to unleash this beast's potential!




I have a Liquid Carbon that I use balanced, and a half boat Burson H10. I agree that the LC is the brighter of the two (though not overly bright like Schiit at all), and find them comparable on soundstage. Different style amps, but both are excellent. Both sound great with planars and the HD650.


----------



## wwmhf

glow fish said:


> I have a Liquid Carbon that I use balanced, and a half boat Burson H10. I agree that the LC is the brighter of the two (though not overly bright like Schiit at all), and find them comparable on soundstage. Different style amps, but both are excellent. Both sound great with planars and the HD650.


 
  
 Thanks for sharing your experience with these two amps.


----------



## Yeskey

I just received my full boat opamp package that I ordered on the 23rd of decemeber and... I received two sets of singles. Dang! Time to bring up their support.


----------



## BassDigger

yeskey said:


> I just received my full boat opamp package that I ordered on the 23rd of decemeber and..*. I received two sets of singles*. Dang! Time to bring up their support.


 
  






 Errr....I think that someone, around here, may have your duals!
  
 It's probably best to let Burson sort it out.
  
 It seems that maybe the V5's sudden popularity, has given Burson a busy holiday period!
  
 ------
  
 P.S. I'm planning to 'fire up' my H10, complete with its 20-ish hour old V5S's (half-boat), later. It's been a while since I've had a listen. Some initial impressions, and pics, will be forthcoming.


----------



## canthearyou

yeskey said:


> I just received my full boat opamp package that I ordered on the 23rd of decemeber and... I received two sets of singles. Dang! Time to bring up their support.







bassdigger said:


> :rolleyes:  Errr....I think that someone, around here, may have your duals!
> 
> It's probably best to let Burson sort it out.
> 
> ...




Still waiting on my duals. If they are not here tomorrow I might get a refund through PayPal. Or maybe try to contact Burson and ask them what's up. Maybe they can EMS me a new pair.


----------



## Yeskey

Popped in the singles and so far, everything sounds more "musical" and "alive" with my modded hd650's. Really digging it so far. Now I'm really wondering how the added duals will improve the sound signature.
  
 EDIT: Now I really want my ZMF omni's to come in!


----------



## BassDigger

yeskey said:


> Popped in the singles and so far, everything sounds more "musical" and "alive" with my modded hd650's. Really digging it so far.* Now I'm really wondering how the added duals will improve the sound signature.*
> 
> EDIT: Now *I really want my ZMF omni's* to come in!


 
  
 It looks like you may be heading yourself towards the conundrum of multiple and simultaneous upgrades; once you have all your singles, duals and omni's in place, and you're loving (or loathing) the changes in sq, to which component are you going to attribute which change?
 But what a problem to have!


----------



## genclaymore

yeskey said:


> I just received my full boat opamp package that I ordered on the 23rd of decemeber and... I received two sets of singles. Dang! Time to bring up their support.


 
 I saw that coming when the other guy got dual's instead of singles, look like you and the other person might have to ship each other the orders. The guy filling out the address must been very tired.


----------



## Yeskey

In case there's any issues with the extra pair of singles I have now, I don't mind sending them back to burson and waiting for them to send me a pair of duals back. It'll make sorting this out a lot easier in the long run imo.


----------



## Burson Audio

Hi Guys,
 
Recently we have received a few warranty claims from customers using the V5 in their Gustard H10. Since the V5 had a very solid quality track record up until these incidents, we were very concerned by them. Therefore, we have obtained a H10 to investigate. 
 
*Our findings: *
 
The H10 is powering the original opamps at +/-16 Volt to 16.5Volt (varying due to different main voltage settings). That is above our stated maximum working voltage of +/-15 volts. 
 
In our existing QC process, we only retain V5 opamps meeting our stated working range plus a 5% buffer zone.  ie.  Opamps that can do better than +/-16 volt stays and any that tolerates less are scrapped.
 
*Our solution: *
 
Due to the overwhelming supports from H10 users, we have decided to implement a stricter QC process and only retain V5 which can tolerate +/-17V.  ie 15% above its stated maximum. The new batch of V5 based on this new QC process will be ready in 3 weeks (10th Feb 2015)
 
*Same V5, higher in quality:*
 
Please understand that the circuitry design of the V5 which you love will remain unchanged.  The tougher QC process will ensure that you will receive even higher quality V5s.  
 
*Life-time warranty in action:* 
 
For existing V5+H10 customers, please be assured that each and every Burson opamp is covered by a life-time warranty.  If your opamp fails anytime in the future, then we'll replace it with brand new ones. : ) 
 
For those customers with failed V5s, please email us direct on info@bursonaudio.com. Please allow us 3 to 4 weeks to prepare your replacement.  
 
We are as passionate about DIY audio as you are and with your ongoing support and suggestions, we’ll continue to push the technological boundaries of the Burson audio opamps for you. : )  
 
Thank you again for your support
 
Burson Audio


----------



## wwmhf

I had a conjecture that was similar to your "Our findings", i.e., the compatibility.


----------



## wwmhf

yeskey said:


> I just received my full boat opamp package that I ordered on the 23rd of decemeber and... I received two sets of singles. Dang! Time to bring up their support.


 
  
 A different effect of holiday season? At least you have the single channel Bursons now which I found can improve H10 a lot.


----------



## Vanusk

burson audio said:


> .


 

  
 Guess i'm going full boat next month


----------



## Yeskey

Burson just got back to me, amazing customer service! I'll be waiting for those shiny new duals next month also. That gives me time to burn these singles in.


----------



## railrus

Burson replied and provided a solution for me. Hopefully my single opamp will flying into my grubby hands ASAP!
  
 Kudos to Alex and Dennis! Am now anticipating a full boat.


----------



## MLegend

So.........if we recently ordered any of the packages should we ask for a refund/cancel or will all of the recent orders be the new batch?


----------



## BassDigger

mlegend said:


> So.........if we recently ordered any of the packages should we ask for a refund/cancel or will all of the recent orders be the new batch?


 
  
 Reading between the lines, I think that any issues with the current, or previous, batches would then be replaced with the upgraded op-amps (rather than pre-empting a possible failure). I guess with the lifetime warranty, this shouldn't be a problem.
  
 -------
  
 P.S. Dude, you know that you can use the 'Quote', or 'Reply', icons; then people will know who your comment/question is directed at (and maybe get an email). Just a suggestion 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 P.P.S. Currently working on my V5S impressions post.


----------



## MLegend

Yeah i'm aware of the reply and quote buttons haha. Can't wait to read them man!


----------



## moriez

burson audio said:


> The H10 is powering the original opamps at +/-16 Volt to 16.5Volt (varying due to different main voltage settings). That is above our stated maximum working voltage of +/-15 volts.
> 
> In our existing QC process, we only retain V5 opamps meeting our stated working range plus a 5% buffer zone.  ie.  Opamps that can do better than +/-16 volt stays and any that tolerates less are scrapped.


 
  
 Not great news obviously but at least you're being transparant and solution oriented which makes it solid support. Good good good.
  
 So what are chances of failure if H10 needs about 16V and the V5's give a maximum of 15,75V?
 And in your tests, what main voltage setting requires 16V vs 16.5V?


----------



## jaywillin

patiently awaiting my ad797br and my lme49990ma opamps to arrive from china, sometimes it takes a while..........


----------



## zilch0md

jaywillin said:


> patiently awaiting my ad797br and my lme49990ma opamps to arrive from china, sometimes it takes a while..........


 
  
 You might be the smartest guy in this thread!


----------



## zilch0md

canthearyou said:


> 18 days and still waiting for my duals from Burson.


 
  


zilch0md said:


> *That means you ordered them on 24 December.  I ordered mine on 29 December.*
> 
> They were on holiday during that stretch, so we might not see ours for another week or longer. I would expect 26 days to be the maximum (instead of the 12 days I've seen with previous U.S. customers.)
> 
> ...


 
  


yeskey said:


> I just received my full boat opamp package that I ordered on the 23rd of decemeber and... I received two sets of singles. Dang! Time to bring up their support.


 
  
 That's 21 days (through the holidays).  Are you in the States?
  


canthearyou said:


> Still waiting on my duals. If they are not here tomorrow I might get a refund through PayPal. Or maybe try to contact Burson and ask them what's up. Maybe they can EMS me a new pair.


 
  
 Conjecturing...   If Yeskey is in the States, you could receive your order today (Thursday, 14 January) and I should receive mine by Tuesday of next week (19 January), each of us having waited 21 days, as Yeskey did.


----------



## canthearyou

Hopefully. My address forwarding starts tomorrow. I'm not sure if that would effect it.


----------



## jaywillin

zilch0md said:


> You might be the smartest guy in this thread!


 
 well, i was planning to get the bursons of course, BUT, i figured the smart thing to do is wait for now, and see how QC straightens out, i feel sure it will,


----------



## tvnosaint

I really liked reading the "lifetime" warranty replacement part of bursons post. I've had no problems with mine but it's good to know if I do , they will send me new ones.


----------



## MLegend

Uh..........My bursons (Full Boat) just arrived at 10:30 this morning..........that was WAY faster than I expected.
  
 According to headfi my post http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/4080#post_12239517 was 3 days 21 hours ago. That has to be a new record or something right?
  
 Haven't put them in yet, most likely going to install them tomorrow on my day off so I can have all day to listen and put some burn in time into these bad boys. I just hope these don't start developing issues. The journey begins tomorrow!


----------



## tvnosaint

Good luck swabbie. It's a substantial improvement


----------



## wwmhf

mlegend said:


> Uh..........My bursons (Full Boat) just arrived at 10:30 this morning..........that was WAY faster than I expected.
> 
> According to headfi my post http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/4080#post_12239517 was 3 days 21 hours ago. That has to be a new record or something right?
> 
> Haven't put them in yet, most likely going to install them tomorrow on my day off so I can have all day to listen and put some burn in time into these bad boys. I just hope these don't start developing issues. The journey begins tomorrow!


 
  
 The fun seems to start soon, be prepared to have it.


----------



## canthearyou

mlegend said:


> Uh..........My bursons (Full Boat) just arrived at 10:30 this morning..........that was WAY faster than I expected.
> 
> According to headfi my post http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/4080#post_12239517 was 3 days 21 hours ago. That has to be a new record or something right?
> 
> Haven't put them in yet, most likely going to install them tomorrow on my day off so I can have all day to listen and put some burn in time into these bad boys. I just hope these don't start developing issues. The journey begins tomorrow!




Mine arrived today. I ordered mine 21 days ago. I wonder if these are the updated ones and they were under development and testing after I ordered?

All my gear is packed for the move tomorrow, so no listening for a while. Hopefully all goes smooth and can get the station set up early next week.


----------



## zilch0md

mlegend said:


> Uh..........My bursons (Full Boat) *just arrived at 10:30 this morning.*.........that was WAY faster than I expected.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> ...


 
  
 Are you in Australia?


----------



## zilch0md

I received my V5 duals today (16 days).
  
 Disappointed:   http://www.head-fi.org/t/784790/burson-supreme-sound-audio-v5-opa-d-v5-opa-s-review/75#post_12253412
  
 Update:  I'm feeling less disappointed.  Listening as they burn-in and just 30 minutes out of the box, they're improving dramatically - starting to win me over with a few attributes that are really special.  
  
 Something wonderful is about to happen.


----------



## Burson Audio

Hi Guys, 
  
 To clarify, 
  
 * We are introducing a stricter QC process, not redesigning the V5.
 * All customers should continue to use their V5s and the chances are most of them will be able to handle the 16.5V+- with ease.
 * If any of your V5 develops any issues then we’ll replace them with brand new units. 
  
 Thanks for all your support guys  
  
 Dennis


----------



## Blueswyh

My H10 is about to arrive in couple of days, waiting excitedly
 I'm reading this thread in reverse direction to page 256 now. Sorry for my lacking of the audio engineering knowledge, I still don't know why need 4 Burson v5s, Does 2 single opamps are for RCA channels and the 2 dual for balanced channels? 
 Would be much obliged to anyone could share some experience with opa627, as I learn from internet it is also a very good opamp and much cheaper than the Burson V5s
 I am using a much weak amp to drive my HE560 and HM801 combo, it is acceptable but really what to see how this guys leap with a decent amp.


----------



## zilch0md

Picture posted here.


----------



## MLegend

zilch0md said:


> Are you in Australia?


 
 Florida


----------



## MLegend

zilch0md said:


> Picture posted here.


 
 I know in the long wrong run that would really annoy me. Disappointing to see this. Here's hoping the sound wins you over!


----------



## BassDigger

*My experiences, so far, with fitting some Burson V5S single discrete op-amps.*
 Gustard H10 (with v.approx 150hrs use)-
  
*Fitting:*
 Tools used - 2 x Allen (hexagonal) keys (2mm & 2.5mm (I think)) + Wife's tweezers (Don't tell her!)
  
  

  
 The plastic op-amp case appears to have done its job!
  
  

  

  

  
 Top plate removed, to reveal output (single) integrated op-amp's location.
  
  

  
 Integrated op-amps removed.
  
 I used metal tweezers, hooking the pincers underneath the ends of the op-amp. This risked doing some damage, but it's most important to use a gentle wiggling motion, and make sure that they lift out as straight as possible, to avoid jamming. (Lifting the amp lid, was more difficult! (The amp hadn't been powered up since the previous day.)).
  
  

  
 An op-amp socket. (Notice the U-shaped recess, towards the top. This indicates the op-amp orientation.)
  
  

  
 A V5S (wonkily) in place. (Just visible is its U-shaped groove).
  
  

  
 V5's pushed easily into place.
  

  
 Ready to go!!!
  
 Other kit-
 Source: QLS QA550 SD card transport, feeding a Cambridge Audio vintage DAC (both heavily modified). Connected to the H10 via Missing Link Alaqia 0.5m cable.
 'Phones: Audeze LCD2f (with CAT 5 DIY headphone cable).
  
 Music- Various tracks: Mostly Electronica, but some mainstream rock/pop, including live recordings.
  
  
*What difference(s) did I hear?*
  
 --------
  
 Listening notes-
  
 2-3 hours:
  
 mid-centric, more 'throat' to vocals,
 wider sound stage or spread out?, still good image
 treble- same extension; no clearer, but more realism/energy,
 bass- maybe fuller upper or less deep bass,
  
 6 hours:
 treble- settled- more natural
 bass- fuller, more low end
  
 7hrs: bass- much more present, more ext.
  
 30-40 hrs:
 clean, fast sound
 bass-  punchy, articulate but full
 starting to have realistic experiences (not sure if recording or external sound)
 treble- still slightly uneven.
  
 ---------
  
 So yes, an obvious change. But what exactly that change is (what's happening to what part of the frequency spectrum, that's causing the perceived differences), is difficult to characterise; such as at a particular freq. I can't say that there's a particular difference, even at the freq extremes, such as an extended bandwidth, like other members have mentioned. Maybe there's more treble, but I would have to do swabbing and re-swabbing to know, for sure. So, I'm afraid that my description is only of a limited scope.
  
 What I've found that they do is 2 things:
  
 1. Soundstage: the most obvious difference, for me, was a large increase in breadth of soundstage and space between instruments/performers; what was more centralised (in my head), is now more spread out. The instruments that were playing to one side, but still in-between my ears, have moved more out to the 'phones diaphragm region. And what was a little stuck in the diaphragm area (a weakness of planar 'phones), is now making a more successful effort at breaking into the free space around my head (as opposed to the plentiful, free and unused space, inside of it). This perceived increase in soundstage has occurred with no loss of focus, or solidity, to each instrument/performer; in fact, maybe the opposite; the performers seem to be more defined within the space that they occupy.
 This change is the most obvious, and was so, right from the first moment of listening.
  
 2. This is the bit that's hard (for me) to quantify; I feel like I'm only able to say "Err....umm....well,.... i'it just sounds...(cue: nonplussed shaking of head, whilst brain attempts to find concise and informative description).......better.".
 I'm used to being able to get a pretty good idea of what aspect(s) of the sound has changed, when swapping bits of equipment. But with these op-amps, all I can really say is that the whole audio spectrum seems to have taken on more focus; the treble is clearer (and maybe more extended), and this phenomenon extends all the way down through the frequency range, into the bass.
  
 I can't, for sure, say that the bass has more extension (goes deeper); sometimes I think so, but other times I think there's less bass. I can only put this down to increased focus; the bass is more accurate than before; maybe, previously unnoticed bass bloat has been reduced. Whilst the bass, that is present, has taken on more articulation and resolution; more character; the characteristics of the instrument that's creating it.
  
 Some have mentioned more body (This is what really piqued my curiosity). Whilst I'm still not getting the fullness, weight and solidity, with my lcd2f, that I desire, vocals, such as Beck's in 'Sea Change', do seem to have more 'throat'. So, I guess that there is more 'body'. And something like Krist Novoselic's big acoustic guitar (in Nirvana Unplugged) does now sound like it's back on the stage, rather than sounding like it's located in another room. Although, it still sounds a little small or distant. And Dave's drum kit (softer 'acoustic' sticks noted) still sounds a bit like a toy. But as I say, this may be more of a reference to my personal preference, and current 'phones, rather than the H10 with the V5S.
  
  
 To summarise, the V5S does increase _all_ detail resolution and, very noticeably, improve the realism and naturalness of the sound (surely these are quite high up on the list of what high fidelity music reproduction is about). So I think that, even with just 30-40 hours burn-in (Burson recommend 100), the fitting of some Burson V5S's moves the H10 up another category in performance.
  
  

  
 What to put in these dual op-amp slots?
  
 Whilst I'm happy with the improvements of the singles, I don't fancy paying twice the price for the fraction of an improvement that the dual op-amps offer (when compared to the singles). I guess that I'll wait and observe the feedback of others who have experimented with the duals vs other good dual op-amp integrated chips.





 
  
 I'll periodically post any updates here. (I'm not sure if there's another change already; I must have hit the 50 hour mark! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## wwmhf

blueswyh said:


> My H10 is about to arrive in couple of days, waiting excitedly
> I'm reading this thread in reverse direction to page 256 now. Sorry for my lacking of the audio engineering knowledge, I still don't know why need 4 Burson v5s, Does 2 single opamps are for RCA channels and the 2 dual for balanced channels?
> Would be much obliged to anyone could share some experience with opa627, as I learn from internet it is also a very good opamp and much cheaper than the Burson V5s
> I am using a much weak amp to drive my HE560 and HM801 combo, it is acceptable but really what to see how this guys leap with a decent amp.


 
  
 I used OPA627s in the single channels of H10 and I liked it very much. I can live with OPA627, but of course, I like Burson's single channel version even more. I have tried a few opamps, and I like OPA627 most if I haven't bought the Bursons. 
  
 OPA627 is not much cheaper these days than Burson's V5s (with some discount).


----------



## wwmhf

Bassdigger,
  
 I like the way you posted your pictures, they are like movies, frame by frame. 
  
 Furthermore, I agree with your summary about Bursons single channel V5.


----------



## Walderstorn

Agreed, made things easier to follow.


----------



## MLegend

bassdigger said:


> *My experiences, so far, with fitting some Burson V5S single discrete op-amps.*
> Gustard H10 (with v.approx 150hrs use)-
> 
> *Fitting:*
> ...


 
 Well sadly I didn't check to see if I had the correct size keys before buying the V5s so now I have to wait for the keys to arrive later on. You know, I could experiment for you. Since I have both singles and duals I could only install the singles for the first 100hrs then give my impressions. Then I could install the duals and test what the duals add to the whole set up. Sound good?


----------



## bongieto

mlegend said:


> Well sadly I didn't check to see if I had the correct size keys before buying the V5s so now I have to wait for the keys to arrive later on. You know, I could experiment for you. Since I have both singles and duals I could only install the singles for the first 100hrs then give my impressions. Then I could install the duals and test what the duals add to the whole set up. Sound good?


 
  


bassdigger said:


> *My experiences, so far, with fitting some Burson V5S single discrete op-amps.*
> Gustard H10 (with v.approx 150hrs use)-
> 
> *Fitting:*
> ...


 
  
 Where can I buy just the pair of singles and how much? I checked Burson's site and I cannot find a link to buy.


----------



## wwmhf

You can buy it from: 
  
 1. http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5/
 2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/V5-Single-SS-discrete-Opamp-x-2-beat-OPA627-AD811-AD844-OPA604-AD8610-AD797-LME-/111830956085?hash=item1a09a4f835:gzoAAOSwWnFWChi9


----------



## manishex

So has anyone compared full boat burson h10 to the audio gd nfb1amp. People are saying on the dac19 thread that the LC is better than the nfb1amp.


----------



## MLegend

bongieto said:


> Where can I buy just the pair of singles and how much? I checked Burson's site and I cannot find a link to buy.


 
 Just go here http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5/ and scroll all the way down and the buying options will pop up.


----------



## sunneebear

manishex said:


> So has anyone compared full boat burson h10 to the audio gd nfb1amp. People are saying on the dac19 thread that the LC is better than the nfb1amp.


 
  
 To me the Burson H10 edges out the LC.  One local listener agrees with me, one says the LC is total crap (strongly hates thin vocals) and a third has the LC edging out the H10 because it seems he like more treble energy and presence.  So 3/4 in favor of the Burson H10 over the LC therefor the Burson H10 should be better than the NFB1.


----------



## wwmhf

manishex said:


> So has anyone compared full boat burson h10 to the audio gd nfb1amp. People are saying on the dac19 thread that the LC is better than the nfb1amp.


 
  
 I do not have Audio GD nfb1 amp, but I have its previous version. The following is under the assumption that the new version of Audiog DG's amp is not revolutionary. 
  
 1. Using the Audio GD as a unbalanced amp, it sounds a little thin, not as warm and rich a H10 even without Burson opamp. With Burson's opamp, H10 is even better. Asked to choose one, I would probably always choose H10.
 2. Using the Audio GD as a balanced amp, it will be difficulty for me to decide which one I prefer to listen even though these two amps do have different sound signatures.


----------



## freak

Today I received Gustard H10 220v. Unfortunately upon pressing the power button I can hear buzzing sound from the transformer.
 On the back it is 220V version and this is what I need, I live in Europe.
 Do you think it is possible they sent me 110v version? It can play music but I'm afraid to use it and the buzzing sound is unacceptable to me.
 I guess I will need to take it apart and check the voltage switch.


----------



## canthearyou

freak said:


> Today I received Gustard H10 220v. Unfortunately upon pressing the power button I can hear buzzing sound from the transformer.
> On the back it is 220V version and this is what I need, I live in Europe.
> Do you think it is possible they sent me 110v version? It can play music but I'm afraid to use it and the buzzing sound is unacceptable to me.
> I guess I will need to take it apart and check the voltage switch.




Pop the cover off and check the switch.


----------



## wwmhf

freak said:


> Today I received Gustard H10 220v. Unfortunately upon pressing the power button I can hear buzzing sound from the transformer.
> On the back it is 220V version and this is what I need, I live in Europe.
> Do you think it is possible they sent me 110v version? It can play music but I'm afraid to use it and the buzzing sound is unacceptable to me.
> I guess I will need to take it apart and check the voltage switch.


 
  
 This amp has switch with marks for choosing either 110V or 220V. Open the case and find which position that switch is set to.


----------



## BassDigger

mlegend said:


> Well sadly I didn't check to see if I had the correct size keys before buying the V5s so now I have to wait for the keys to arrive later on. You know, *I could experiment for you.* Since I have both singles and duals *I could only install the singles for the first 100hrs *then give my impressions. *Then I could install the duals and test what the duals add to the whole set up*. Sound good?


 
  
 Well that looks like a Supreme plan, to me (and I'm sure that there are a few others who'd agree!). The only question is: 'Do you have the willpower?'; will you be able to resist the urge, to install the duals, for a whole 100hrs of listening (burn-in) time? With the knowledge that there they are, just sitting there, calling to you "Don't forget us.......!!"
  
 Well, I hope that you have a stronger will than I probably would; it'd be very helpful to get as many 'takes' on what the dual bursons bring to the table, especially when compared, directly, to the singles!










  
 Good luck with the keys! (As others have said, the screws are pretty tightly.....screwed; you'll definitely need the correct tool to 'crack' them open. Then, probably the fiddliest part of the job, is moving the lid out and into place; it's a very tight clearance!)
  
 ----------
  
 P.S. Thanks all for the appreciation of my V5S installation & impressions post. I can certainly say that it was inspired by the work of others.


----------



## freak

I took it apart and I can see 110V inscriptions next to the voltage switches . So I guess I need to push the switches so 220v inscriptions are visible? Or maybe the covered value is correct one after all? I don't know what logic chinese people use here.


----------



## willowbrook

If it shows 110V it is 110V...220V is 220V, there is no other logic than that. However, it's sad that so many people are having a simple problem like this which can be detrimental to the amp with such a little mistake during QC process. IMO, QC needs serious improvement. Looks like opening the chassis to check voltage is a must for new ones.


----------



## wwmhf

freak said:


> I took it apart and I can see 110V inscriptions next to the voltage switches . So I guess I need to push the switches so 220v inscriptions are visible? Or maybe the covered value is correct one after all? I don't know what logic chinese people use here.


 
  
 If the label on the outside of the case say 220V but the position of the switch inside is 110V, then the manufacture made a mistake. Plugging the amp configured in this way into a 220V outlet most probably has caused some damages to the amp. I suggest you to contact the store from which you bought the amp about this issue as soon as possible. 
  
 As a matter of fact, someone has reported this mistake on massdrop's forum:
  
 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10/talk


----------



## freak

I changed the voltage switches, turned it on and... nothing 
 The green power light is on but it's not working. It's not buzzing anymore but there is no sound from the headphones either.
 It probably got broken when I turned it on for the first time with wrong position of voltage switch 
 just great...


----------



## freak

I bought it on Massdrop in November and I arranged shipping to Poland via cargo ship. I took 7 weeks until I got it.
 Do you think it can be eaisly repaired? I don't want to send it to China or to Massdrop in USA. It will take ages, it will cost a lot and customs officials may stop it and charge me even more...
 *** it! why did I buy it?


----------



## willowbrook

freak said:


> I changed the voltage switches, turned it on and... nothing
> The green power light is on but it's not working. It's not buzzing anymore but there is no sound from the headphones either.
> It probably got broken when I turned it on for the first time with wrong position of voltage switch
> just great...


 
 Damn...I hope your problem gets solved without loss except time.


----------



## wwmhf

freak said:


> I bought it on Massdrop in November and I arranged shipping to Poland via cargo ship. I took 7 weeks until I got it.
> Do you think it can be eaisly repaired? I don't want to send it to China or to Massdrop in USA. It will take ages, it will cost a lot and customs officials may stop it and charge me even more...
> *** it! why did I buy it?


 
  
 Solid state equipment damaged in this way is difficult to repair. Contact Massdrop to seek the best solution.


----------



## zilch0md

freak said:


> I bought it on Massdrop in November and I arranged shipping to Poland via cargo ship. I took 7 weeks until I got it.
> Do you think it can be eaisly repaired? I don't want to send it to China or to Massdrop in USA. It will take ages, it will cost a lot and customs officials may stop it and charge me even more...
> *** it! why did I buy it?


 
  
 I'm sorry to hear that freak.
  
 I've had it with QC issues myself, lately, but nothing this bad - with so long a wait to get it resolved. It seems your only option is to make arrangements for a replacement and wait, with uncommon patience.  
  
 Not to create a false hope, you could ask them for expedited shipping, given the circumstances.


----------



## manishex

Maybe it fried the op amp chips, I have no idea. You could get upgraded op amp chips and see if they work, may turn out cheaper than shipping?


----------



## olek

Sorry about your misfortune, @freak
 I agree that if amp was in 110V setting and was fed 220V... too many components might blew up. Surprised that fuse(s) did not kick in (or did it?). I would not be trying to repair it, other than checking fuse(s).


----------



## BassDigger

willowbrook said:


> If it shows 110V it is 110V...220V is 220V, there is no other logic than that. However,* it's sad that so many people are having a simple problem like this *which can be detrimental to the amp with such* a little mistake during QC process*. IMO, QC needs serious improvement.* Looks like opening the chassis to check voltage is a must for new ones.*


 
  


freak said:


> I changed the voltage switches, turned it on and... nothing
> The green power light is on but it's not working. It's not buzzing anymore but there is no sound from the headphones either.
> *It probably got broken when I turned it on for the first time with wrong position of voltage switch *
> just great...


 


freak said:


> I bought it on Massdrop in November and I arranged shipping to Poland via cargo ship. I took* 7 weeks until I got it.*
> Do you think it can be eaisly repaired? *I don't want to send it to China or to Massdrop in USA*.* It will take ages, it will cost a lot and customs officials may stop it and charge me even more...*
> *** it! why did I buy it?


 
  
 My heart goes out to you freak! This is a whole load of trouble that you just shouldn't have; all over a simple, and obvious, oversight.
  
 This doesn't surprise me; knowing Chinese work ethics, the way I do; it really it is: 'It'll do, will do.'.  It's not because the Gustard owners, and designers, don't care (although this is a big issue in Chinese society). It's a lot more to do with getting the workforce to feel responsible for, and to actually understand the quality of, what they do. I feel that China and Japan are polar opposites, in this respect. The culture is different; these people have little knowledge of, and no interest or pride in the work that they do; they just know what they've learnt on the job, and are there for the money. So, the only thing that will work is paying them more money. And then, only if done the right way.
  
 There we come to the crux of the issue: we like our bargain products, from China. But they're bargains for a reason. And this means a certain amount of risk.
 As willowbrook says; it would be very wise for people taking delivery (particularly in higher voltage countries, and particularly if they're concerned about the difficulties of resupply) of any Chinese sourced electrical product, to check the voltage settings, BEFORE plugging in.
 In the case of the H10, once you have the correct (2 & 2.5mm) hexagonal keys, it's a very easy process.


----------



## wwmhf

bassdigger said:


> There we come to the crux of the issue: we like our bargain products, from China. But they're bargains for a reason. And this means a certain amount of risk.
> 
> As willowbrook says; it would be very wise for people taking delivery (particularly in higher voltage countries, and particularly if they're concerned about the difficulties of resupply) of any Chinese sourced electrical product, to check the voltage settings, BEFORE plugging in.


 
  
 Valid opinion and useful/critical suggestion.


----------



## willowbrook

Something to note is that frequency is also difw ferent by region, I don't know if that affects DAC and amps, but it sure does make a difference to clocks and motors. US is 120V 60Hz while EU generally 230V 50Hz, this is a pain in the ass especially for people in EU buying US or Asia products and vice versa. I don't think it affects DAC/amp, but it's something to note when buying electrical equipment.


----------



## wwmhf

willowbrook said:


> Something to note is that frequency is also difw ferent by region, I don't know if that affects DAC and amps, but it sure does make a difference to clocks and motors. US is 120V 60Hz while EU generally 230V 50Hz, this is a pain in the ass especially for people in EU buying US or Asia products and vice versa. I don't think it affects DAC/amp, but it's something to note when buying electrical equipment.


 
  
 Well designed power supplies in modern amps and DACs will not be effected much by small variations in frequency or voltage (110V ~ 120V, 220V ~ 230V).


----------



## HPiper

Where are the Gustard products available, any online retailers or do you get it via ebay or something like that?


----------



## willowbrook

hpiper said:


> Where are the Gustard products available, any online retailers or do you get it via ebay or something like that?


 
 There was a massdrop sale for 300 shipped, other than that you can get one from Taobao with shipping company involved in middle or one from ebay seller like pollychen.


----------



## jaywillin

hpiper said:


> Where are the Gustard products available, any online retailers or do you get it via ebay or something like that?


 
 http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-hifi-stereo-headphone-amplifier.html
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-current-Discrete-Class-A-output-Stage-Headphone-Amplifier-/261520921654?hash=item3ce3dc9436:g:LPkAAOSwirZTsoZ~
  
 and yes, it's the real deal


----------



## braaam

jaywillin said:


> http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-hifi-stereo-headphone-amplifier.html
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-current-Discrete-Class-A-output-Stage-Headphone-Amplifier-/261520921654?hash=item3ce3dc9436:g:LPkAAOSwirZTsoZ~
> 
> and yes, it's the real deal




it's cheaper on Aliexpress (shipping with fedex is +35):
http://s.aliexpress.com/BjeuuqY3


----------



## jaywillin

braaam said:


> it's cheaper on Aliexpress (shipping with fedex is +35):
> http://s.aliexpress.com/BjeuuqY3


 
 nice find


----------



## willowbrook

Might have to pay customs fee for shipping overseas.


----------



## wwmhf

hpiper said:


> Where are the Gustard products available, any online retailers or do you get it via ebay or something like that?


 
  
 Wait for the next massdrop from massdrop.com


----------



## Yeskey

hpiper said:


> Where are the Gustard products available, any online retailers or do you get it via ebay or something like that?


 
  
 I ordered mine from
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/181894422026?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 $318 USD after conversion, they were having a sale.
  
 After a little chat with their rep, had it expedited for no additional charge. From China to SoCal in 2 days. And on the 24th of december too! YMMV


----------



## zilch0md

More whining combined with sincere praise for the V5 Duals:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/528149/ibasso-pb-2-pelican-fully-balanced-portable-db-2-dac-hiflight-recommended-op-amps-page-16/1305#post_12260674


----------



## wwmhf

yeskey said:


> I ordered mine from
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181894422026?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 
  
 That was good deal, but the price is back up.


----------



## hongant

Any1 can comments on H10 with V5S + HD800?


----------



## wwmhf

I do not have 800. Since my H10 works well with my 650, I think H10 should be OK for 800.


----------



## willowbrook

I think some people have talked about matching with 800. Might want to search the thread.


----------



## BassDigger

hongant said:


> Any1 can comments on *H10 with V5S* *+ HD800*?


 
  
 Good question; as I understand it (I've never listened to a pair) the hd800 really shines a spotlight on any upstream equipment's treble resolving abilities. And I think that the standard H10 has been shown a little 'wanting'; treble performance being a (_the?_) weakness of the H10. 
  
 Are there any seasoned hd800 users, who use a H10 (probably mostly for other 'phones), who've installed some Bursons?


----------



## BassDigger

willowbrook said:


> I think some people have talked about matching with 800. Might want to search the thread.


 
  






 Y'but, have they talked specifically about whether the H10 w/Bursons is a more realistic everyday amp for use with the hd800?


----------



## willowbrook

bassdigger said:


> Y'but, have they talked specifically about whether the H10 w/Bursons is a more realistic everyday amp for use with the hd800?


 
 Haven't got the time to look through 4200 posts


----------



## BassDigger

hongant said:


> Any1 can comments on* H10 with V5S + HD800*?


 
  


willowbrook said:


> I think some people have talked about *matching with 800*. Might want to search the thread.


 
  


bassdigger said:


> Y'but, have they talked* specifically *about whether the *H10 w/Bursons* is a more realistic everyday amp for use with the hd800?


 
  


willowbrook said:


> *Haven't got the time to look* through 4200 posts


 
  





 "Sigh!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Head in hand)


----------



## zilch0md

I've sent an email to Burson, requesting an exchange of my twisted V5 Duals.  I hate to part company with them - the sound is awesome.


----------



## willowbrook

Good thing they have lifetime warranty


----------



## slex

Burson have acquired a Gustard H10 now to troubleshoot the heat issues.

Enjoying the Lycan now with V5.


----------



## wwmhf

slex said:


> Burson have acquired a Gustard H10 now to troubleshoot the heat issues.
> 
> Enjoying the Lycan now with V5.


 
  
 Technically, Burson stated it as a voltage issue. Voltage and heat are often related, but semiconductor parts nowadays are more resilient to heat than to voltage.


----------



## zilch0md

willowbrook said:


> Good thing they have lifetime warranty


 
  
 Yes, but I can't wait to find out what the return postage will cost me (as a result of their failure to notice this):


----------



## canthearyou

zilch0md said:


> Yes, but I can't wait to find out what the return postage will cost me (as a result of their failure to notice this):




I know that's unacceptable and you shouldn't have to live with it. But if it installs without issue and functions properly, once you put the cover on it's outta sight.


----------



## Vanusk

He's one of the <1% that's going to cut out his amp case and build an enclosure around it. Why not just increase the dimensions by 1mm and call it a day I don't know.
  
  
 If Burson is really going to replace those opamps because of something so trivial then they really are an A class company


----------



## mandrake50

vanusk said:


> He's one of the <1% that's going to cut out his amp case and build an enclosure around it. Why not just increase the dimensions by 1mm and call it a day I don't know.
> 
> 
> If Burson is really going to replace those opamps because of something so trivial then they really are an A class company


 

 I was thinking the same thing. Were they mine and working properly, I wouldn't worry about returning them. Especially were I concerned about shipping costs.


----------



## MLegend

It is a very small issue that wouldn't bother anyone using the bursons with the H10 but Zilch is using these with a smaller amp with plans to cut the top in the shape of the bursons so they can stick out of the top. You have to put yourself in his/her shoes and imagine doing all the work of measuring,cutting, and fitting just to have the op amps not be center and look like **** in the end result. 
  
 It's an extremely small issue but would irritate anyone who would put that much effort into creating a nice custom diy amp enclosure and then have the $200 op amps look crooked. Especially in the long run.


----------



## mandrake50

I missed that part... That makes more sense. But still, going back to the original thought about Burson having stellar service to actually agree to replace them based on this problem... I still holds!


----------



## MLegend

Singles have been installed. No issues so far......thank goodness. Let the 100hr burn in BEGIN! 
  
 Does anyone know if it would be safe or not to leave the screws out while the amp is powered on? I'm planning on doing a lot of back and forth comparing when everything is settled. I have already put the screws back for now in just to be safe. 
  
 Also, for the balanced/unbalanced switches on the back, if i'm using rca output should I have the switch up or down? I just noticed it was up when I was taking out the back screws. Thank you!


----------



## jackharm

You can even leave the lid off while you burn it in/swap.
  
 If you are using unbalanced(RCA) the switch should be down despite you still being able to hear sound from it in balanced mode (switch up).


----------



## MLegend

Alright cool. Thank you for the reply. Might leave the lid on so the amp doesn't accumulate dust over time. Really? Hmm, well hopefully this doesn't change the sound too much if at all cause it's been up since i've had the amp. Can't believe i've had it on wrong this whole time. Will report back if the sound changes at all.


----------



## BassDigger

mlegend said:


> Singles have been installed. No issues so far......thank goodness. Let the 100hr burn in BEGIN!
> 
> *Does anyone know if it would be safe or not to leave the screws out while the amp is powered on?* I'm planning on *doing a lot of back and forth comparing* when everything is settled. I have already put the screws back for now in just to be safe.
> 
> Also, for the balanced/unbalanced switches on the back, if i'm using rca output should I have the switch up or down? I just noticed it was up when I was taking out the back screws. Thank you!


 
  
 Like everything, it depends on your situation; if you've got a kiddy, of an age who likes to 'investigate', running around, (or if you'll be moving the amp around) I'd leave the screws tightened. But otherwise, screws out is fine; they don't effect the operation.
 I've replaced lid and screws, but the screws aren't properly tightened. This is because I don't own the hex keys, and I want easy access, if/whenever I do start 'messing around' again.
  
 Note: If you're going to leave the lid off, just be careful; there're some voltages going around in there!
  
 "Back and forth comparing"?!? It looks like you're going to do a better reviewing job than I have. I look forward to reading about your findings.


----------



## MLegend

OMG..............how could I have been so foolish to not even flip the switch before just to see if there was a difference. While listening to a track I pushed the dip switch down and BAM! Double the volume and power! I feel so stupid right now. I've been listening to this amp with the wrong setting for MONTHS!


----------



## sunneebear

mlegend said:


> OMG..............how could I have been so foolish to not even flip the switch before just to see if there was a difference. While listening to a track I pushed the dip switch down and BAM! Double the volume and power! I feel so stupid right now. I've been listening to this amp with the wrong setting for MONTHS!



Yeah it's labeled UNBAL/BAL and kind of scrunched up. With my poor eyesight I just assumed it was one word UNBALANCE. So when I first got it I flipped the switch up for unbalance and thought my amp was broken.


----------



## BassDigger

mlegend said:


> OMG..............how could I have been so foolish to not even flip the switch before just to see if there was a difference. While listening to a track I pushed the dip switch down and BAM! Double the volume and power! I feel so stupid right now. I've been listening to this amp with the wrong setting for MONTHS!


 
  











 Don't worry; we all do silly things (hang on...just checked; I forgot if I'd checked _those_ dip switches!!); I did a full day's H10 'burning-in', with the headphone jack only 3/4 of the way in! Later that day, when putting the 'phones on, to check the state of play, I thought the amp, or even worse my LCD2's, were broken; the sound was bad, and all out of balance!
 Now I always make sure that I properly push that jack all the way in, until it 'clunks' home (It's a good socket/connector!).


----------



## MLegend

Good GOD! Changing those 2 switches has literally transformed this amp into what i've always wanted it to be. I've always ran the volume at around 50%(12 o' clock) with my mad dogs (3.2) at no gain with foobar. That would be the maximum I would ever go. I'm at 9 o clock now and it's just as loud as it was at 12 with the dip switches in the up position, This thing is crazy powerful! I don't want to say the sound changed as well without prefacing that the bursons have been running for about 2 hours now, so that could also be a factor in the change of sound. 
  
 This amp sounds more neutral to me now compared to before. Extension at both ends is now improved as well as the clarity of the whole frequency spectrum. Decay is more apparent and last longer. Vocals have a lot more clarity and stood out the most besides bass extension and added air. This is awesome! 
  
 If you think i'm crazy or exaggerating then you might want to try this yourself. I don't think you'll keep the dip switch in the up position for a long period of time though haha (this is assuming you're using an rca connection and not balanced)


----------



## BassDigger

sunneebear said:


> Yeah it's labeled UNBAL/BAL and kind of scrunched up. With my poor eyesight I just assumed it was one word UNBALANCE. So when I first got it I flipped the switch up for unbalance and thought my amp was broken.


 
  
 TBH, I didn't even know that there were the balanced/unbalanced dip switches, until a while after getting the amp.
  
 I'm tempted to try them in the wrong position, just to see what kind of sound @MLegend has been living with (and loving) for months!!!


----------



## MLegend

Haha yeah I love the jack on this amp. Feels really secure and makes me think that it could last a lifetime.


----------



## MLegend

I definitely haven't loved the sound since I received the H10. It was actually quite the disappointment when I first listened to it and even after it burned in. Sounded unclear with roll off at both ends of the frequency spectrum. It did have a larger soundstage than my Z97-A though. I figured that this was just how the amp sounded and went with it and hoped it would get better over time. Now that I have the amp properly set up all of my qualms are solved. Now, hopefully, with the bursons the sound will improve even further. I would love to read your impressions of having the dip switches in the wrong positions just for laughs haha, I don't see you listening to it that way for long though haha.


----------



## canthearyou

I have over 24 hours on my full boat Bursons. I haven't swapped back to stock duals but I do believe I hear something better. It sounds as if the mid bass has more presence or impact. Maybe a slight bit more clarity throughout the entire spectrum. And dare I say maybe even a blacker background.


----------



## BassDigger

mlegend said:


> I definitely haven't loved the sound since I received the H10. It was actually quite the disappointment when I first listened to it and even after it burned in. Sounded unclear with roll off at both ends of the frequency spectrum. It did have a larger soundstage than my Z97-A though. I figured that this was just how the amp sounded and went with it and hoped it would get better over time. Now that I have the amp properly set up all of my qualms are solved. Now, hopefully, with the bursons the sound will improve even further. I would love to read your impressions of having the dip switches in the wrong positions just for laughs haha, I don't see you listening to it that way for long though haha.


 
  
 "Loving it!" Yeah, I'm sorry about that; I just couldn't resist kicking someone, while they're down. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			













  
 It just goes to show what a subjective game this is! But it doesn't say much for your previous amp!
  
 Maybe, with this major dip switch and op-amp upgrade, you should take a break from critical listening; you're surely going to be in some kind of 'Goldylocks' zone for a while now; every track is going to sound great (or at least very different)!!!
 Really, what you're effectively doing is discovering both H10 and V5S, simultaneously.
 But.....saying that......if you're going to be a busy op-amp swapper (more than I've been), you could still glean some useful impressions. But it could become tiresome.
 Whatever. Just enjoy your music!


----------



## olek

mlegend said:


> I definitely haven't loved the sound since I received the H10.


 
 No wonder. I remember when I also tried H10 with this switch in wrong (for RCA's) position. Sound was not just quieter, it was ... bad enough to motivate me to flip that switch back quick, since I have heard the 'proper' H10's sound before.


----------



## zilch0md

mlegend said:


> It is a very small issue that wouldn't bother anyone using the bursons with the H10 but Zilch is using these with a smaller amp with plans to cut the top in the shape of the bursons so they can stick out of the top. You have to put yourself in his/her shoes and imagine doing all the work of measuring,cutting, and fitting just to have the op amps not be center and look like **** in the end result.
> 
> It's an extremely small issue but would irritate anyone who would put that much effort into creating a nice custom diy amp enclosure and then have the $200 op amps look crooked. Especially in the long run.


 
  
 Thanks for your empathy!  
  
 I understand everyone else's point of view, but as MLegend has referenced, I've purchased a spare case for my portable amp that I'll be paying a machinist to modify, cutting close-fitting rectangular holes through which the V5 Duals can protrude.  I really don't think anyone here would actually enjoy going to all of that effort to have the Bursons sitting out of alignment with each other and with the case. 
  
 And what would you do if you had two DIP8 sockets on your amp's PCB, sitting closely enough that there was only just room enough for a pair of V5s to sit right alongside each other, having obtained their dimensions in advance, measuring carefully, only to have them show up with their cases twisted relative to their DIP8 pins, such that they couldn't be plugged into the closely-set DIP8 sockets?   
  
  

 I can't order V5 Singles to replace the 4x LME49990s in my amp because even * if * the V5 singles were centered properly over their pins, their case dimensions exceed the available real estate in my amp.  I am therefore actually glad that my portable amp doesn't have enough space for properly centered V5 singles, because I'd be facing the possibility of getting more twisted V5s and finding myself even further disappointed.
  
 But yeah, for the vast majority of buyers who have plenty of space around the DIP8 sockets to accommodate twisted V5s AND who can put a lid over the V5s, keeping a twisted but otherwise perfectly functioning V5 would be a no-brainer - I agree.
  
 Mike


----------



## wwmhf

mlegend said:


> Singles have been installed. No issues so far......thank goodness. Let the 100hr burn in BEGIN!
> 
> Does anyone know if it would be safe or not to leave the screws out while the amp is powered on? I'm planning on doing a lot of back and forth comparing when everything is settled. I have already put the screws back for now in just to be safe.
> 
> Also, for the balanced/unbalanced switches on the back, if i'm using rca output should I have the switch up or down? I just noticed it was up when I was taking out the back screws. Thank you!


 
  
 I still haven't put the cover back yet.


----------



## tvnosaint

Tragic symmetry


----------



## MLegend

olek said:


> No wonder. I remember when I also tried H10 with this switch in wrong (for RCA's) position. Sound was not just quieter, it was ... bad enough to motivate me to flip that switch back quick, since I have heard the 'proper' H10's sound before.


 
 I know right.


----------



## MLegend

wwmhf said:


> I still haven't put the cover back yet.


 
 No dust build up?


----------



## BassDigger

BassDigger said:
			
		

> (Myself) /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> .... *'Goldylocks' zone* ....
> Whatever. Just enjoy your music!


 
  





 Err....maybe 'honeymoon phase', would have been a better metaphor! I've been watching too many space exploration documentaries!!


----------



## MLegend

bassdigger said:


> Err....maybe 'honeymoon phase', would have been a better metaphor! I've been watching too many space exploration documentaries!!


 
 haha it's alright man I understood what you meant.


----------



## tommo21

mlegend said:


> Alright cool. Thank you for the reply. Might leave the lid on so the amp doesn't accumulate dust over time. Really? Hmm, well hopefully this doesn't change the sound too much if at all cause it's been up since i've had the amp. Can't believe i've had it on wrong this whole time. Will report back if the sound changes at all.


 
 Don't feel too bad about this.....I have done the exact same thing, and flipped the switches today only after reading this...
  
 Another world opened itself to me.....now I'm happy with my Fostex T-x00 as well....and I actually wondered about selling them today...


----------



## BassDigger

tommo21 said:


> Don't feel too bad about this.....I have done the exact same thing, and flipped the switches today only after reading this...
> 
> Another world opened itself to me.....now I'm happy with my Fostex T-x00 as well....and I actually wondered about selling them today...


 
  
 OMG! I wonder, how many others have made this mistake? 
 Are there people who even got rid of their H10, purely 'cos some dip switches were in the wrong position, and they didn't realise?!?
  
 Maybe the infamous H10 burn-in routine (or myth) has added to the confusion; perhaps some have been distracted by the promise of a vast improvement, after a shaky start. So, they weren't put off, by the unimpressive beginning; they just kept on listening, and in the end accepted it as the Gustard H10 sound! I wonder.
  
 But I wouldn't do that. Oh no! Not me! No way!! _(He's writes whilst checking those dip switches, yet again!) _


----------



## Kozic

Ha, after about a year I just rechecked mine they were in the right spot thankfully....


----------



## wwmhf

mlegend said:


> No dust build up?


 
  
 Not much yet. The doors and windows are all closed most of the time these days because of the season. I will blow out the dust before I put the cover back once I have settle down to the best opamps I like.


----------



## wwmhf

bassdigger said:


> OMG! I wonder, how many others have made this mistake?
> Are there people who even got rid of their H10, purely 'cos some dip switches were in the wrong position, and they didn't realise?!?
> 
> Maybe the infamous H10 burn-in routine (or myth) has added to the confusion; perhaps some have been distracted by the promise of a vast improvement, after a shaky start. So, they weren't put off, by the unimpressive beginning; they just kept on listening, and in the end accepted it as the Gustard H10 sound! I wonder.
> ...


 
  
 H10 labels the related switch as "unbanl\bal" vertically which challenges my eye sight and intelligence, both of min are declining these days.


----------



## MLegend

tommo21 said:


> Don't feel too bad about this.....I have done the exact same thing, and flipped the switches today only after reading this...
> 
> Another world opened itself to me.....now I'm happy with my Fostex T-x00 as well....and I actually wondered about selling them today...


 
 Thank goodness i'm not alone on this. Happy to hear  you've rediscovered the H10 before almost selling that TH-X00.


----------



## MLegend

bassdigger said:


> OMG! I wonder, how many others have made this mistake?
> *Are there people who even got rid of their H10, purely 'cos some dip switches were in the wrong position, and they didn't realise?!?*
> 
> Maybe the infamous H10 burn-in routine (or myth) has added to the confusion; perhaps some have been distracted by the promise of a vast improvement, after a shaky start. So, they weren't put off, by the unimpressive beginning; they just kept on listening, and in the end accepted it as the Gustard H10 sound! I wonder.
> ...


 
 That would be quite sad. It's possible though.


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> OMG! I wonder, how many others have made this mistake?
> Are there people who even got rid of their H10, purely 'cos some dip switches were in the wrong position, and they didn't realise?!?
> 
> Maybe the infamous H10 burn-in routine (or myth) has added to the confusion; perhaps some have been distracted by the promise of a vast improvement, after a shaky start. So, they weren't put off, by the unimpressive beginning; they just kept on listening, and in the end accepted it as the Gustard H10 sound! I wonder.
> ...


 
 I think it's rather easy to make that mistake, particularly if you are using rca's (unbalanced).  If you have only been using xlr's (balanced) like I have,  it's a little more difficult to make the dip switch error. The reason for that is with balanced connectors, the wrong switch setting is absolutely horrible sounding...you will notice an unmistakable problem.
  
 As for burn-in....no myth brother. It's been affirmed by dozens of us with almost the exact same experience, but, could someone possibly listen to rca's with the wrong dip switch setting and over time think it sounded better?...entirely possible.  You may be on to something there.  I sure hope there weren't more than a few Swabbies that had to suffer through this and perhaps thought we were all a bit crazy with our opinions.


----------



## genclaymore

I think on the next one they need to make it a button instead of a dip switch for switching from unbalanced to balanced as I made that mistake twice. Forgetting about it being in balanced, or at least make it more clear.


----------



## bongieto

stuartmc said:


> I think it's rather easy to make that mistake, particularly if you are using rca's (unbalanced).  If you have only been using xlr's (balanced) like I have,  it's a little more difficult to make the dip switch error. The reason for that is with balanced connectors, the wrong switch setting is absolutely horrible sounding...you will notice an unmistakable problem.
> 
> As for burn-in....no myth brother. It's been affirmed by dozens of us with almost the exact same experience, but, could someone possibly listen to rca's with the wrong dip switch setting and over time think it sounded better?...entirely possible.  You may be on to something there.  I sure hope there weren't more than a few Swabbies that had to suffer through this and perhaps thought we were all a bit crazy with our opinions.


 
 I agree this mistake can be common on RCA connection because I just tested mine, when on XLR and its switched to unbalanced= no sound.


----------



## Glow Fish

bongieto said:


> I agree this mistake can be common on RCA connection because I just tested mine, when on XLR and its switched to unbalanced= no sound.




Mine only plays on balanced XLR input only when the switch is in the up position. When the switches are down, no sound. Have not tried the RCA unbalanced input.


----------



## mandrake50

I thought mine was dead when I got it and first turned it on. I connected to the XLR connectors and got nothing. Fortunately I remembered someone here talking about a switch, found them, switched them, all was good from there.


----------



## willowbrook

genclaymore said:


> I think on the next one they need to make it a button instead of a dip switch for switching from unbalanced to balanced as I made that mistake twice. Forgetting about it being in balanced, or at least make it more clear.



They should also put the voltage switch on the back.


----------



## BassDigger

wwmhf said:


> H10 labels the related switch as "unbanl\bal" vertically which challenges my eye sight and intelligence, both of min are declining these days.


 
  
 Oh! Is that what is says?!? I just keep all the dip switches in the down position, and hope. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


stuartmc said:


> I think it's rather easy to make that mistake, particularly if you are using rca's (unbalanced).  If you have only been using xlr's (balanced) like I have,  it's a little more difficult to make the dip switch error. The reason for that is with balanced connectors, the wrong switch setting is absolutely horrible sounding...you will notice an unmistakable problem.
> 
> *As for burn-in....no myth* brother. It's been affirmed by dozens of us with almost the exact same experience, but, *could someone possibly listen to rca's with the wrong dip switch setting and over time think it sounded better?.*..entirely possible.  You may be on to something there.  I sure hope there weren't more than a few Swabbies that had to suffer through this and perhaps thought we were all a bit crazy with our opinions.


 
  
 No disagreement, about burn-in, here; I was just connecting with some who haven't noticed any real change.
  
 Actually, I was trying to say that using the wrong connection settings could maybe have someone putting the poor sq down to the need for burn-in, regardless of whether it improves, or not. But, how long would someone wait, to hear this 'magical' post burning-in veil lifted, before they'd give up; not realising that that they'd so severely compromised the sound, simply due to an incorrect setting? 
 Looking at least one of the affected swabbies, they've even gone and splashed out on Bursons (full boat) (not cheap!), and still continued listening with this issue, until now!!!
  
 I haven't (yet) 'messed around' and experimented with trying the wrong setting, myself. But it would be interesting to quantify what kind of difference it makes; comparing it to both other amps and op-amp upgrades; as one user said, the sound was different, in a kind of disappointing way. But they still (reluctantly) accepted it. So I guess that the (wrong setting) sq is comparable to something that someone, somewhere, would actually use. Maybe happily! I wonder what kind of amp that is.
 In the same repect, does switching, from the incorrect, to the correct setting improve the sq by more, or less, than upgrading to (say) 'full-boat' op-amps?
  
 I guess that this interests me, because I think that it will help me to get a better understanding of what kind of comparisons people are making.
 And yes; maybe there are some swabbies who thought that we're all full of hot air!
  


genclaymore said:


> I think on the next one they need to make it a button instead of a dip switch for switching from unbalanced to balanced as I made that mistake twice. Forgetting about it being in balanced, or at least make it more clear.


 
  
 I haven't checked, but I guess that this is another 'carry-over' from the V200. The dip switches are useful. But the fiddly and unclear (balanced/unbalanced) connection settings are causing people problems.
  
 Anyway, I'd better check mine. Just one more time!


----------



## Rutti

Hi! 
 I've been lurking this thread for a while. Got recommended about this amp after wanting to buy the Vioelectric V200, I currently own a pair of HD650s and an Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 PLUS with extra tubes. 

 I just bought the Gustard H10 an hour ago, looking really forward to using it! So my question is if I should sell my Maverick D1 plus (DAC/preamp) and invest that money in the V5 upgrade. Or should I rather keep it, considering I have no other DAC and the Gustard H10 has no inbuilt DAC. For your information I'm also planning on upgrading my HD-650s to a pair of LCD2-s or Beyerdynamic T1:s or the HE-6.
  
 If I were to sell my Maverick D1 Plus, what new DAC do you guys recommend paired with the H10? And please take the fact into consideration that I will be updrading my headphones. My budget on a DAC is around 300 dollars, so it would be a completely new DAC without any preamp + the H10 with the V5 upgrade. Or staying with my current DAC, upgrading the H10 with the V5 and keeping everything as it is.      
  
  
 Best regards, really pleased of becoming an H10 owner.


----------



## bongieto

rutti said:


> Hi!
> I've been lurking this thread for a while. Got recommended about this amp after wanting to buy the Vioelectric V200, I currently own a pair of HD650s and an Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 PLUS with extra tubes.
> 
> I just bought the Gustard H10 an hour ago, looking really forward to using it! So my question is if I should sell my Maverick D1 plus (DAC/preamp) and invest that money in the V5 upgrade. Or should I rather keep it, considering I have no other DAC and the Gustard H10 has no inbuilt DAC. For your information I'm also planning on upgrading my HD-650s to a pair of LCD2-s or Beyerdynamic T1:s or the HE-6.
> ...


 

 For an inexpensive DAC, I would definitely recommend SMSL M8. For the price, I don't think it can be beaten. It sometimes sell on Massdrop for $140 + . I got mine from a quick Amazon sale for $119 and I don't think my $800 DAC is better than the SMSL.


----------



## wwmhf

rutti said:


> Hi!
> I've been lurking this thread for a while. Got recommended about this amp after wanting to buy the Vioelectric V200, I currently own a pair of HD650s and an Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 PLUS with extra tubes.
> 
> I just bought the Gustard H10 an hour ago, looking really forward to using it! So my question is if I should sell my Maverick D1 plus (DAC/preamp) and invest that money in the V5 upgrade. Or should I rather keep it, considering I have no other DAC and the Gustard H10 has no inbuilt DAC. For your information I'm also planning on upgrading my HD-650s to a pair of LCD2-s or Beyerdynamic T1:s or the HE-6.
> ...


 
  
 My experience is that Beyerdynamic T1 pairs better with a tube amp than H10.


----------



## willowbrook

rutti said:


> Hi!
> I've been lurking this thread for a while. Got recommended about this amp after wanting to buy the Vioelectric V200, I currently own a pair of HD650s and an Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 PLUS with extra tubes.
> 
> I just bought the Gustard H10 an hour ago, looking really forward to using it! So my question is if I should sell my Maverick D1 plus (DAC/preamp) and invest that money in the V5 upgrade. Or should I rather keep it, considering I have no other DAC and the Gustard H10 has no inbuilt DAC. For your information I'm also planning on upgrading my HD-650s to a pair of LCD2-s or Beyerdynamic T1:s or the HE-6.
> ...


 

 I think you should also consider HE-560, great cans.


----------



## jerick70

wwmhf said:


> My experience is that Beyerdynamic T1 pairs better with a tube amp than H10.




Yes it pairs perfectly with the Feliks Audio Elise.


----------



## MrIcy

Hi Everyone,

New member here. I just joined the SS Gustard a month ago. 

I'm just wondering if this has happened to anyone else or am I just unlucky? I've already emailed Burson but I'm wondering if there's a way to reach the makers of the Gustard so I can see about getting this fixed or if I would have to buy a new one. 











Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## canthearyou

Holy crap! Did it pop suddenly?


----------



## harpo1

mricy said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> New member here. I just joined the SS Gustard a month ago.
> 
> ...


 
 Circuit board is trashed so a new one is in order.  Probably cheaper to buy a brand new unit unless Burson or Gustard take responsibility.  Is it still under warranty?


----------



## olek

OMG. I agree, this amp is a history.
  
 I suspect that Burson will extend their liability to only their opamps, and it would not be unreasonable for Gustard to deny warranty as well, because they could not be held responsible IF upgraded opamp melted and short-circuited something (notice big IF - I am not saying that is what happened) . At best one may expect a discount offer for replacement amp if customer service is good and maker/retailer is concerned about retention.
  
 That is why upgrades are a little bit dangerous territory, when something goes terribly wrong... its on an owner. Does not matter if it is hot-rodding a car, or 'swabbing' an amp.
  
 Sorry about your misfortune.
  
 Second burned H10 mentioned on those pages in last week or so. Dark days, mateys, time for some rum.


----------



## Noodlz

So I actually helped MrIcy with his H10 purchase recently. Just wanted to chime in here. We literally just got the unit from a fellow gustard SS shipmate here like a month ago before it blew up on mricy (quite literally), which royally sucks. I personally think someone either from burson or gustard should do something to help out here. 
  
 Also my personal opinion is that everyone who has the older V5s ship them back to burson before it blows up on them...(I recently got a brand new replacement for my single channel V5s before i sold my H10 to @willowbrook so he should be ok.) Just don't want anyone to have to go through what Mricy did


----------



## Kozic

So hypothetical situation the old opamps could make it back into the H10 and tell Gustard it justed stopped working, then return the V5 to Burson. Not saying that is what I would do but I might.....


----------



## willowbrook

noodlz said:


> So I actually helped MrIcy with his H10 purchase recently. Just wanted to chime in here. We literally just got the unit from a fellow gustard SS shipmate here like a month ago before it blew up on mricy (quite literally), which royally sucks. I personally think someone either from burson or gustard should do something to help out here.
> 
> Also my personal opinion is that everyone who has the older V5s ship them back to burson before it blows up on them...(I recently got a brand new replacement for my single channel V5s before i sold my H10 to @willowbrook
> so he should be ok.) Just don't want anyone to have to go through what Mricy did




You the best ^^


----------



## willowbrook

kozic said:


> So hypothetical situation the old opamps could make it back into the H10 and tell Gustard it justed stopped working, then return the V5 to Burson. Not saying that is what I would do but I might.....



Unless you want to spend extra $400, I would have done the same.


----------



## swannie007

Unethical. Just saying....


----------



## Kozic

Could be, but is it more ethical than selling something that when used as intended it burns up? I'm looking at you Burson.


----------



## swannie007

Can we be sure that the fault lays at Bursons' door? Many of us on this forum have the Bursons and have not had this problem with our amps so to start pointing fingers and laying blame to certain parties may be a little premature and unfair, to say the least.
 That being said, let me add that I have no affiliation at all with Burson and as such have no vested interest in the outcome of this matter, I simply wish to point out that we need to consider all the facts prior to crying wolf. Just my 2c worth. Cheers.


----------



## sunneebear

I'm no electrical engineer but hard to see the op-amp blowing the amp but more like the other way around.  Somewhere in there the H10's fuse should have blown.


----------



## Kozic

So if it's not the op Amp fault then the Amp was defective so returning it should be fine.
If it heats up over a long time sometimes the fuse won't blow I have seen it before more than once working with transformers.


----------



## sunneebear

Well MrIcy, welcome to Head-fi.  Great first post and sorry for your wallet.


----------



## wwmhf

sunneebear said:


> I'm no electrical engineer but hard to see the op-amp blowing the amp but more like the other way around.  Somewhere in there the H10's fuse should have blown.


 
  
 Does H10 have a fuse? Where? I looked for it a couple of times, but I did not see it.


----------



## sunneebear

wwmhf said:


> Does H10 have a fuse? Where? I looked for it a couple of times, but I did not see it.


 
 It's where you plug in the power cord.


----------



## wwmhf

Sorry to see an amp damaged so badly. It looks like some parts around the power supply failed. Of course I saw the hole on Burson opamp.


----------



## wwmhf

sunneebear said:


> It's where you plug in the power cord.


 
  
 Now I see it. It is outside the box and the power cord blocks it from my inspection. Thanks.


----------



## slex

olek said:


> OMG. I agree, this amp is a history.
> 
> I suspect that Burson will extend their liability to only their opamps, and it would not be unreasonable for Gustard to deny warranty as well, because they could not be held responsible IF upgraded opamp melted and short-circuited something (notice big IF - I am not saying that is what happened) . At best one may expect a discount offer for replacement amp if customer service is good and maker/retailer is concerned about retention.
> 
> ...




Guess so, 6 of my dual V5s and 2 of single V5 got burned. 2 of them are actually recent replacement. 

My H10 was actually working after switching back to stock op-amps but alas , broke down after 3 days.

Contacted seller of Gustard H10, they said that my voltage regulator is dead and need to be replaced.

Awaiting them to sent over a new voltage regulator. 

I requested Burson to exchange all my V5s into a Lycan head amp with a dual V5 and they agreed.

They Lycan is no slouch against the H10 with V5. My pass reference is Gustard H10 V5s with Hifiman 400S

Now is the new reference: Lycan V5 with Fostex TH-XOO, these 2 is beautifully matched.


----------



## zilch0md

slex said:


> *Guess so, 6 of my dual V5s and 2 of single V5 got burned. 2 of them are actually recent replacement.
> 
> My H10 was actually working after switching back to stock op-amps but alas , broke down after 3 days.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for sharing this, slex.  
  
 A bad voltage regulator is more likely to damage good op-amps than a succession of bad op-amps are likely to damage a good voltage regulator.  
  
 It's analogous to a bad air compressor causing damage to a succession of perfectly good tires, due to over-inflation.  A succession of defective tires aren't likely to cause damage to a perfectly good air compressor.
  
 We also have to keep in mind that Burson has previously posted:
  


> *The H10 is powering the original opamps at* *+/-16 Volt to 16.5 Volt* (varying due to different main voltage settings).
> 
> That is *above our stated maximum working voltage of +/-15 Volts.*


 
  
 They went on to say that they would essentially accommodate the H10's higher swing voltage by not allowing future V5s to ship unless they...
  


> ... can tolerate +/-17 V.  ie 15% above its stated maximum.
> 
> The new batch of V5 based on this new QC process will be ready in 3 weeks (10th Feb 2015 2016)


 
  
 Thus, a properly functioning H10 (with a good voltage regulator), is innately incompatible with properly functioning V5s, by nature of overpowering the Burson V5s that were tested to satisfy a stated maximum swing voltage of +/- 15V.  
  
 Every V5 that has shipped (or that will ship) to H10 owners prior to 10 February 2016 will already be operating at higher than its specified maximum voltage (like over-inflating a tire rated for a maximum of 15 PSI, to 16 or 16.5 PSI).
  
 Now imagine using the V5s in an H10 with a bad voltage regulator.  There's no telling what voltages they could suffer.
  


Spoiler: Posts made by Burson Audio






burson audio said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Please allow us to clarify 2 aspects relating to recent discussions.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


burson audio said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Recently we have received a few warranty claims from customers using the V5 in their Gustard H10. Since the V5 had a very solid quality track record up until these incidents, we were very concerned by them. Therefore, we have obtained a H10 to investigate.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


burson audio said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> To clarify,
> 
> ...


 
  
  


  
 Mike


----------



## slex

zilch0md said:


> Thanks for sharing this, slex.
> 
> A bad voltage regulator is more likely to damage good op-amps than a succession of bad op-amps are likely to damage a good voltage regulator.
> 
> ...




Thats comforting to know. I was wondering the match up between Gustard H10 with full V5 against Burson Soloist SL MK2. They are priced the same.

Anyone have any comparison?


----------



## kyamei

Wow, almost seems like I caught my V5's at a good time.  My V5S started having the static issues after a couple of days, then a few days after that my V5D's had the issue.  When I opened the H10 up, the V5D can be seen below.  Glad I caught it before it popped like MrIcy's.


----------



## Yeskey

Either I haven't burned in my singles long enough or I'm lucky, 35 hours in and my set of V5 singles sound great. I ended up grabbing a schiit wyrd to go along with my odac and now I can turn the amp to max without hearing any static or popping. (not that I'd ever want to do that while playing any music) Talk about clean signal.
  
 I'll be grabbing a schiit bimby soon to finish off the ultimate combo-burrito. I can't wait! (The upgrading escalates!)


----------



## willowbrook

kyamei said:


> Wow, almost seems like I caught my V5's at a good time.  My V5S started having the static issues after a couple of days, then a few days after that my V5D's had the issue.  When I opened the H10 up, the V5D can be seen below.  Glad I caught it before it popped like MrIcy's.



That is one scary time bomb.


----------



## zilch0md

^ Looks like an over-inflated tire.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Basically, every H10 owner using current-version V5s is operating them out of spec.


----------



## willowbrook

Burson needs to do something about this like a recall if it has a risk of failing the H10 as well. If not, I hope the new QC process will eliminate all blowing up problems.


----------



## BassDigger

mricy said:


> New member here. I just joined the SS Gustard a month ago.
> 
> I'm just wondering if this has happened to anyone else or am I just unlucky? I've already emailed Burson but I'm wondering if there's a way to reach the makers of the Gustard so I can see about getting this fixed or if I would have to buy a new one.
> 
> ...


 


noodlz said:


> So I actually helped MrIcy with his H10 purchase recently. Just wanted to chime in here. We literally just got the unit from a fellow gustard SS shipmate here like a month ago before it blew up on mricy (quite literally), which royally sucks. I personally think someone either from burson or gustard should do something to help out here.
> 
> *Also my personal opinion is that everyone who has the older V5s ship them back to burson before it blows up on them.*..(I recently got a brand new replacement for my single channel V5s before i sold my H10 to @willowbrook so he should be ok.) Just don't want anyone to have to go through what Mricy did


 
  
 Welcome and sorry for your troubles, Mricy!
  
 You really have 'joined the boat', big time!
  
 Actually, I think that I came pretty close to joining, as far as you; I think that _my_ V5's have gone bad.
  
 I was just letting my kit start to warm up, (switched on, but not playing, and the volume at the minimum) when I heard 2 loud pops, and maybe some crackling, coming my my headphones (that were, thankfully, sitting next to me, rather than on my head)!
 The next thing that I noticed was the H10's relay cycling on and off, every few seconds.
 I'd already unplugged my phones. But then I thought it's definitely a good idea to switch off the unit, from the mains.
  
 Maybe, if I'd not been sitting right next to my gear (which is quite a regular occurrence!!!) it could have gone unnoticed. Then I could have been in the same boat as poor Mricy!
  
 I've emailed Burson, but I have yet to receive a reply.
  
 I've replaced the V5s with the original op-amps, and everything seems to be fine, now. The sound's not even so bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Regarding liability: it's not very clear; Burson have mentioned that the H10 has abnormally high voltage supply, to the op-amps. And this is what's causing the issue.
 Whether the H10's "high voltage" is 'abnormal' by industry standards, or if it's just Burson's opinion, I guess would be the crux of the issue here.
  
 I do recall reading, posted by someone in communication with Gustard, that they do not advise the changing of any op-amps. Awareness of the high voltage could be the reason why they stated this. Maybe they are aware that, if op-amp swapping, there would be the possibility of someone fitting op-amps that cannot handle the H10's op-amp supply voltage. This appears to be the case, in this instance.
  
 So, to me, it appears to be a question of whether it is the onus of Gustard to make an amp with a 'within spec' voltage, or Burson to supply op-amps that can handle the same kind of voltage that others op-amps appear to be able to cope with, without issue?
  
 TBH, I think that Burson have handled this quite well, so far; they've even acquired an H10, to get a better understanding of this continuing issue. BUT, IMHO, now that Mricy's experience has shown that the op-amp problem may do some permanent damage, they should change their policy (of accepting returns from H10 owners, once there has been an issue) to accepting returns from all H10 owners, who haven't already received the new 'up-specced' V5's. This is, of course, unless Mricy's is a unique issue, that can be put down to a separate, and unrelated, problem with the H10.
  
 As for Gustard, (again writing what I recall that someone in contact with Gustard has written) they are reportedly happy to service, free of charge, any issues with their H10, no-matter where it was bought. Whether this gracious offer has a time limit; or extends to problems caused by 'user interference' (replacing parts, such as op-amps); or is even true, is something that needs to be found out, especially for those with broken headphone amps!
  
 P.S. @MrIcy Have a look through this (or the Gustard DAC) thread; I'm sure there's an email address (beginning with 's'....maybe 'seawon???@?.com'), around here, somewhere. This is reported to be Gustard's customer service, located in Hong Kong (so they should be able to communicate in English).
  
 P.P.S. I was a page behind, when writing this post; it really is looking like a liability; to have 'standard' V5's fitted to a Gustard H10!!


----------



## braaam

I have some serious reservations about the Gustard with v5's at this point, I cancelled my order of the v5s. 

Will tightening up QC really fix this problem in the long run? Or will they fail later on? It seems to me that a design change may be needed for the V5's to be able to take the higher voltage properly.


----------



## wwmhf

slex said:


> Guess so, 6 of my dual V5s and 2 of single V5 got burned. 2 of them are actually recent replacement.
> 
> My H10 was actually working after switching back to stock op-amps but alas , broke down after 3 days.
> 
> ...


 
  
 By all the information available, it seems to me that Burson opamps work in H10 in a borderline configuration such that if one side is not within the thin tolerance, then their collaboration will fail with the death of one side or two. Quite a few Bursons were burned in this particular amp suggests me that this amp seems be out of this narrow collaboration range. 
  
 I also sense a trace of "overclocking" flavor in H10. Overclocking is often dangerously fun for those want to pursue.


----------



## wwmhf

braaam said:


> I have some serious reservations about the Gustard with v5's at this point, I cancelled my order of the v5s.
> 
> Will tightening up QC really fix this problem in the long run? Or will they fail later on? It seems to me that a design change may be needed for the V5's to be able to take the higher voltage properly.


 
  
 It looks to me more a parameter tweaking issue for Burson than a QC issue. If H10 is using the involved opamps in the upper envelope or even outside the normal range, then it may be better for Burson to do so too.


----------



## wwmhf

wwmhf said:


> By all the information available, it seems to me that Burson opamps work in H10 in a borderline configuration such that if one side is not within the thin tolerance, then their collaboration will fail with the death of one side or two. Quite a few Bursons were burned in this particular amp suggests me that this amp seems be out of this narrow collaboration range.
> 
> I also sense a trace of "overclocking" flavor in H10. Overclocking is often dangerously fun for those want to pursue.


 
  
 So far and now, I am still enjoying the "dangerously fun". Yes, H10 with Burson's single opamps generates very enjoyable music.


----------



## bongieto

hopefully Burson fixes this as I am about to pull the trigger on this for my Gustard. Hold off for now.


----------



## jaywillin

on a non-burson topic , i purchased these for the single opamps
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/281794261737?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 either this is the wrong type, i'm doing something wrong,  or mine arrived DOA
  
 thoughts anyone ?


----------



## moriez

Just a thought here.
  
 Since Burson said:_ t__he H10 is powering the original opamps at +/-16 Volt to 16.5Volt *(varying due to different main voltage settings)* _I wonder if all owners with V5 issues are in 110V mains areas or 230V or both.
  
 I'm in a 230V area without any problem since first receiving them at the beginning of December.


----------



## canthearyou

moriez said:


> Just a thought here.
> 
> Since Burson said: _t_[COLOR=222222]_he H10 is powering the original opamps at +/-16 Volt to 16.5Volt *(varying due to different main voltage settings)*_ I wonder if [/COLOR]all owners with V5 issues are in 110V mains areas or 230V or both.
> 
> I'm in a 230V area without any problem since first receiving them at the beginning of December.




I'm 110v here in the U.S. I'm gonna pull the cover off here shortly and take a look.

*I checked and they look like new.


----------



## zilch0md

*Fairchild didn't design the NE5532 for use in the Gustard H10.*
  
  
  

  
*Texas Instruments didn't design the OPA134 for use in the Gustard H10.*
  
  
  

  
*Texas Instruments didn't design the LME49990 for use in the Gustard H10.*
  
  
  

  
*JRC didn't design the Muses 01 for use in the Gustard H10.*
  
  
  

  
*Analog Devices didn't design the AD797 for use in the Gustard H10.*
  
  
  

  
*Burson didn't design the V5 for use in the the Gustard H10,* but they're going to try to increase the V5's maximum permissible supply voltage, specifically to accommodate the Gustard H10 community.
  
 Remember, I'm the guy that has been whining about the twisted case of my otherwise perfectly functioning V5 Duals.  
  
 I'm just trying to be objective here.


----------



## tommo21

moriez said:


> Just a thought here.
> 
> Since Burson said:_ t__he H10 is powering the original opamps at +/-16 Volt to 16.5Volt *(varying due to different main voltage settings)* _I wonder if all owners with V5 issues are in 110V mains areas or 230V or both.
> 
> I'm in a 230V area without any problem since first receiving them at the beginning of December.


 

 I'm also om 230V area. 200hours on the Bursons now without a problem.


----------



## wwmhf

jaywillin said:


> on a non-burson topic , i purchased these for the single opamps
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/281794261737?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> either this is the wrong type, i'm doing something wrong,  or mine arrived DOA
> ...


 
  
 It is known that buying boutique Hi-Fi opamps from Ebay is solicitation trouble. I heard numerous bad stories about faked or dad being for sale on Ebay. Unless the seller is known reliable, I will not buy any opamps from his/her ebay sale/auction.


----------



## wwmhf

zilch0md said:


> *Fairchild didn't design the NE5532 for use in the Gustard H10.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 If H10's power supply to its opamps is designed to 16.5V, then I do not see why those opamps in your list , except for 5532 maybe, cannot be used in H10. H10's 16.5V is within their voltage range, is it?


----------



## jaywillin

wwmhf said:


> It is known that buying boutique Hi-Fi opamps from Ebay is solicitation trouble. I heard numerous bad stories about faked or dad being for sale on Ebay. Unless the seller is known reliable, I will not buy any opamps from his/her ebay sale/auction.


 
 yeah, i kinda had a feeling i was rolling the dice
 i put the 797anz back in, and with all the talk of stock vs swapped op-ams, voltages , etc, i might just put the stock op-amps back in, lol


----------



## zilch0md

wwmhf said:


> If H10's power supply to its opamps is designed to 16.5V, then I do not see why those opamps in your list , except for 5532 maybe, cannot be used in H10. H10's 16.5V is within their voltage range, is it?




You're saying you don't understand why I included some of the op-amps in my "list," as if I had endorsed or recommended their use in the H10. I have not endorsed any of them. I'm only pointing out that some of them, as indicated by the specs given in their datasheets, cannot handle the +/- 16.5V that an H10 can supply, while others can.

But yes, of the few that I have refeferencec (omitting dozens of other possibile op-amps), their datasheets show that only the NE5532 (that ships with the H10) and the LME49990 can handle supply voltages as high as the H10 uses. 

Moral of the story: It's neither Gustard's fault nor the op-amp manufacturer's fault if we willfully yet ignorantly insert an opamp that can't handle the H10's supply voltage. We must hold ourselves accountable for failure to do our homework. The same holds true for rolling op-amps in any DAC or amp.


----------



## canthearyou

zilch0md said:


> You're saying you don't understand why I included some of the op-amps in my "list," as if I had endorsed or recommended their use in the H10. I have not endorsed any of them. I'm only pointing out that some of them, as indicated by the specs given in their datasheets, cannot handle the +/- 16.5V that an H10 can supply, while others can.
> 
> But yes, of the few that I have refeferencec (omitting dozens of other possibile op-amps), their datasheets show that only the NE5532 (that ships with the H10) and the LME49990 can handle supply voltages as high as the H10 uses.
> 
> Moral of the story: It's neither Gustard's fault nor the op-amp manufacturer's fault if we willfully yet ignorantly insert an opamp that can't handle the H10's supply voltage. We must hold ourselves accountable for failure to do our homework. The same holds true for rolling op-amps in any DAC or amp.




Well, according to the Burson website these are supposed to be direct replacements. 

I am enjoying the sound of these op-amps. I will also expect Burson to cover any issues that may arise from use of their products. I do hope they will make right and offer free of charge replacements for current users.


----------



## tvnosaint

Crap. I'm gonna open my case up on Monday and investigate for the purpose of preventive maintenance. Thanks for showing us that disaster, mrcly


----------



## moriez

zilch0md said:


> Moral of the story: It's neither Gustard's fault nor the op-amp manufacturer's fault if we willfully yet ignorantly insert an opamp that can't handle the H10's supply voltage. We must hold ourselves accountable for failure to do our homework. The same holds true for rolling op-amps in any DAC or amp.


 
  
 Probably premature for any statements but in the current situation, technically speaking it is Burson who falls short. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing fingers and picking a fight. Burson has been very good, maybe exceptional in their support. What I'm saying is when a manufacturer of any product makes the claim something is compatible it should be compatible period. It's not the end-user's task to dig up spec sheets or to even question whether it will work as intended or not.
  
  


canthearyou said:


> Well, according to the Burson website these are supposed to be direct replacements.
> 
> I am enjoying the sound of these op-amps. I will also expect Burson to cover any issues that may arise from use of their products. I do hope they will make right and offer free of charge replacements for current users.


 
  
 Agreed, and I think Burson will take care of all of us one way or another.


----------



## Resonant

Hi All,
  
 I've finally created a user account to post, after lurking on HeadFi the last couple years, and on this thread since TOP.  First, a thank you all collectively for some solid info, useful context, and at times great entertainment.  I hope to contribute back some of the goodness I've gotten from this site.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Is it too soon to post a quick personal inventory, for context?
  
 Cheers,
 Res


----------



## Resonant

Erp, I'll save the details for the profile once it's enabled.  But TLDR is that along with a BH Crack (and others) I do have two H10s at this point.  After some Opamp rolling the H10 #1 has half-boat Burson singles and two LME49720HAs, while H10 #2 is stock for now (with a Full-boat Burson order OTW for it).


----------



## olek

Wow, two H10s - you are living my dream - this is perfect setup to compare effects of opamp 'swabbing'. I do not rely on any auditory memory that is longer that 5min, and that makes figuring out effect of opamp change rather difficult. Nice!
  
 I was considering going full-boat Burson, but looking at those smoky pictures sobered me up and I think I am going to try some LME49720HA instead.
  
 Burson's opamp business is inherently tricky. Usually it is up to designer to try out different opamps and make sure that they work well. Burson is flipping that upside down, selling opamps primarily to end users to upgrade their amps. It would be 'safer' (from legal and moral point of views) if they were 'just' selling them as generally compatible opamps - keeping it up to end users to do their legwork and assume the risks. But that is bad for business, so they got into specific landing pages recommending those opamps for particular amps, like H10. Great marketing decision, but IMO it makes Burson more liable for problems.
  
 On slightly unrelated note, I have recently destroyed pair of DT770 by taking them apart for good cleaning and not being careful about putting them back together (long story). At the end, yes, I am not quite happy that headphones were not as fool-proof as I assumed them to be, but at the end, I was the one being fool, and this whole ordeal did not stop me from buying Beyerdynamic T70 couple months afterwards (very happy about them BTW).


----------



## wwmhf

olek said:


> Wow, two H10s - you are living my dream - this is perfect setup to compare effects of opamp 'swabbing'. I do not rely on any auditory memory that is longer that 5min, and that makes figuring out effect of opamp change rather difficult. Nice!
> 
> I was considering going full-boat Burson, but looking at those smoky pictures sobered me up and I think I am going to try some LME49720HA instead.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have experiences similar to yours. Modding/improving my equipment, I destroyed multiple pairs of headphones, a DAC, a Rotel 991 power amp. I also damaged a Rotel 980 amp. I fortunately found how to fix the Rotel 980 amp, but not the 991 which was a more powerful, more expensive and better amp. 
  
 We enjoy the fun from "hot rod"/"overclock"/"DIY"/"mod", and we once in while have to take the responsibility for the consequences of these adventures.


----------



## Resonant

I did not exactly _plan _to end up with two H10s, here's the story:
  
 My first H10 was part of a MassDrop. After the usual months-long MD-wait: for the Drop to end, the build-out, shipping China to MD, repacking, and shipping to me...in a _90-minute window _some 'porch pirate' (scumbag thief) lifted it off my front porch!  I got impatient during the replacement process; I diligently reported the theft to UPS & MD, requested a credit/refund, but of course UPS had to verify the theft (which took a couple weeks - I wasn't the only one hit) and then MD instead chose to replace it via their next H10 drop.  Fair enough from MD's perspective - in fact they were great - but ugh, again even _more _months delay!
  
 Soooo...I went ahead and ordered an H10 off eBay via Pollychen.  _That _one arrived first (so I call it dash 1) only a week later (!) and has since served as my 'primary' SS amp, used at home.  Then the second H10 (dash 2) eventually arrived via MD, and I could rationalize keeping the 'extra' H10(-2) at work, and that's where I've used it since.  So my A-B testing at this point has been more serial in-line (swabbing into the H10-1), when not vs. my BH Crack, rather than head-to head -1 vs -2.  This _may _change; I have another amp to use @ work, if needs must...but it's not as nice.
  
 Also, I feed these amps via a pro-audio mixer, with H10-1 enjoying it's balanced outputs and the BH Crack hooked to the unbalanced outputs.  While that's very useful for this specific amp-to-amp comparison, when I do a -1 vs -2, one of the H10's will have to get the unbalanced output...
  
 I'm not overly-concerned wrt the Bursons failures.  The V5 singles sound _very _impressive and they transformed dash 1 immediately, over the 797BRZ's they replaced.  In fact I ordered my Full-boat set _after _the first of the recent posts about V5 failures, so clearly that didn't deter me.  I've been genuinely impressed with Burson Audio's response to the issue and Customer Service overall ('cept for order tracking...but that's not what's _most important_).
  
 BTW all such deliveries now taken @work or picked up - Lesson Learned. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers,
 Res


----------



## willowbrook

In the army, they do something called PMCS, preventive maintenance checks and services, every Monday for all equipment. I think PMCS is needed for H10+V5s by opening up the cover and warm them up for a while to see any changes. Just a thought ^^


----------



## Resonant

willowbrook said:


> In the army, they do something called PMCS, preventive maintenance checks and services, every Monday for all equipment. I think PMCS is needed for H10+V5s by opening up the cover and warm them up for a while to see any changes. Just a thought ^^


 

 Ah yes, like a preflight walk-around.  If it's your first listen of the day or you're in for a long session, don't forget your fuel strainer-drain checks!


----------



## wwmhf

willowbrook said:


> In the army, they do something called PMCS, preventive maintenance checks and services, every Monday for all equipment. I think PMCS is needed for H10+V5s by opening up the cover and warm them up for a while to see any changes. Just a thought ^^


 
  
 I really like this PMCS terminology/concept. Thanks for sharing it.


----------



## wwmhf

I finally find time to put a pair of LME49720HA on adaptors. I am now running them in the H10. They sound OK, acceptable, no immediate dislikes for now. One thing I have noticed is that these LME49720HA seem to run a little hotter than other opamps I have tried. 
  
 Up to today, I have tried the following opamps in H10 (not in any particular order):
  
 For the single channel: Burson V5-S, OPA627, AD797, and OPA134 came with H10
 For the dual channel: Burson V5-D, OPA627 (on dual adapters), LT1364, LME49720HA, and the NE5532 came with H10.
  
 I also have a pair of AD823, but I am somehow not even motivated to put them in.
  
 I think I have enough explorations in this swapping adventures for H10. I will wrap this up soon.  
  
 For the money, H10 is a well designed (or copied?) and well implemented amp with parts of decent quality. I like the space inside the amp. I also like how the signal flows from the inputs in the back to output in the front. Its power supply also seems to be good. If I am going to make one amp myself by copying H10, the cost of parts will probably be over $300. This is really a fun amp and I am enjoying it.


----------



## Resonant

wwmhf said:


> I finally find time to put a pair of LME49720HA on adaptors. I am now running them in the H10. They sound OK, acceptable, no immediate dislikes for now. One thing I have noticed is that these LME49720HA seem to run a little hotter than other opamps I have tried.
> 
> Up to today, I have tried the following opamps in H10:
> 
> ...


 
 I completely agree on all points made!  Design, fun-factor, price/value, a great package.  Are the opamps you listed in ranked order (I'm guessing yes)?  In my case the 49720HA's arrived pre-mounted and I was pleased to see with nifty finned-collar heatsinks on the TO-99 cans.  It took the 49720HA's quite a long time during burn-in to settle down, they were on the sterile/brittle side of tone when first installed, and remained so even after ~100 hours.  Around >200 hours run-in later I'm _much _more pleased, and to me they pair with the V5 singles pretty darned well.  My thinking is that their detail emphasis offsets the high-impedance HD650's inherent dark/veil/rolloff when coupled with the H10.  In _stock _configuration, I (still) vastly prefer the HD650's paired with my Crack.  I'd first swabbed in the dual 49720HA's (tighter bass and improved soundstage at the cost of some tonal balance and warmth), then later added the AD797BRZ singles (further increased soundstage, but also became overly-detailed to the point of fatigue). Another 100 hours later, and before the V5-Singles went into the H10, the balance was still tipped in the Crack's favor.  But then swabbing out the BRZs for the V5-S was the tipping point and it wasn't even close, to me it was profound almost immediately, and the Crack is rarely used since.  After I get the V5-Duals and they burn-in, I'll report back with how they compare to the 49720HA's.  Should be win-win, the bar is already pretty high!


----------



## genclaymore

I took out the V5 dual's a month ago and put in Two pairs of OPA627AU's on adapters, I found the pairing to work really well for my HE-500 as well the DT770 pro-80's. I haven't tried any thing else with the V5 singles, As I found the OPA627's to work good enough for me to not try any thing else. Maybe that change later on in the year, when I get curious again.


----------



## wwmhf

resonant said:


> I completely agree on all points made!  Design, fun-factor, price/value, a great package.  Are the opamps you listed in ranked order (I'm guessing yes)?  In my case the 49720HA's arrived pre-mounted and I was pleased to see with nifty finned-collar heatsinks on the TO-3 cans.  It took the 49720HA's quite a long time during burn-in to settle down, they were on the sterile/brittle side of tone when first installed, and remained so even after ~100 hours.  Around >200 hours run-in later I'm _much _more pleased, and to me they pair with the V5 singles pretty darned well.  My thinking is that their detail emphasis offsets the high-impedance HD650's inherent dark/veil/rolloff when coupled with the H10.  In _stock _configuration, I (still) vastly prefer the HD650's paired with my Crack.  I'd first swabbed in the dual 49720HA's (tighter bass and improved soundstage at the cost of some tonal balance and warmth), then later added the AD797BRZ singles (further increased soundstage, but also became overly-detailed to the point of fatigue). Another 100 hours later, and before the V5-Singles went into the H10, the balance was still tipped in the Crack's favor.  But then swabbing out the BRZs for the V5-S was the tipping point and it wasn't even close, to me it was profound almost immediately, and the Crack is rarely used since.  After I get the V5-Duals and they burn-in, I'll report back with how they compare to the 49720HA's.  Should be win-win, the bar is already pretty high!


 
  
 No, those opamps in my list are not in any particular order, sorry for the confusion if any. 
  
 I bought 49720HA from Digikey.com without heatsinks which I will try Ebay to find them. While I am still evaluating these 49720HAs, I can say for now I can live with them and I hope they can become even better as stated in you post. According to your post, it seems like that I need some patience, but I did not have much experience of sterile/brittle sound from them in the initial listening.  
  
 To me, in the single channel, Burson V5 is the best and OPA627 is the second. Their difference is obvious, but I am OK with OPA627 if I have to. I do not feel any need to evaluate/rank my other single channel opamps anymore. 
 In the dual channel, OPA627s on dual board make music to sound too smooth/soft, or a kind of slow so I did not like them. On the other hand, I am have a hard time to pick out the best from Burson V5, TL1364 and  49720HA. Of course it is a little unfair for 49720HAs at this moment because they were just put in service yesterday.


----------



## willowbrook

resonant said:


> I completely agree on all points made!  Design, fun-factor, price/value, a great package.  Are the opamps you listed in ranked order (I'm guessing yes)?  In my case the 49720HA's arrived pre-mounted and I was pleased to see with nifty finned-collar heatsinks on the TO-3 cans.  It took the 49720HA's quite a long time during burn-in to settle down, they were on the sterile/brittle side of tone when first installed, and remained so even after ~100 hours.  Around >200 hours run-in later I'm _much_ more pleased, and to me they pair with the V5 singles pretty darned well.  My thinking is that their detail emphasis offsets the high-impedance HD650's inherent dark/veil/rolloff when coupled with the H10.  In _stock_ configuration, I (still) vastly prefer the HD650's paired with my Crack.  I'd first swabbed in the dual 49720HA's (tighter bass and improved soundstage at the cost of some tonal balance and warmth), then later added the AD797BRZ singles (further increased soundstage, but also became overly-detailed to the point of fatigue). Another 100 hours later, and before the V5-Singles went into the H10, the balance was still tipped in the Crack's favor.  But then swabbing out the BRZs for the V5-S was the tipping point and it wasn't even close, to me it was profound almost immediately, and the Crack is rarely used since.  After I get the V5-Duals and they burn-in, I'll report back with how they compare to the 49720HA's.  Should be win-win, the bar is already pretty high!



Look forward to your impression on the V5 dual vs 49720HA. Looks like 49720 is the one for dual upgrade below v5 duals. I would like to hear how it matches up as people reported half boat to full boat is not as 'wow' as no upgrades to half boat.


----------



## BassDigger

resonant said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've finally created a user account to post, after lurking on HeadFi the last couple years, and on this thread since TOP.  First, a thank you all collectively for some solid info, useful context, and at times great entertainment.  I hope to contribute back some of the goodness I've gotten from this site.


 


resonant said:


> Erp, I'll save the details for the profile once it's enabled.  But TLDR is that along with a BH Crack (and others)* I do have two H10s at this point.  After some Opamp rolling the H10 #1 has half-boat Burson singles and two LME49720HAs, while H10 #2 is stock for now (with a Full-boat Burson order OTW for it).*


 



resonant said:


> I did not exactly _plan _to end up with two H10s,...
> 
> ...my A-B testing at this point has been more serial in-line (swabbing into the H10-1), when not vs. my BH Crack, rather than head-to head -1 vs -2.  This _may _change; I have another amp to use @ work, if *needs must.*..but it's not as nice.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Welcome Res, I think that you've already fitted in, very nicely, around here!
 And the fact that you've got 2 H10's, AND you like to experiment, makes you an extremely welcome addition, IMHO.
 And, yes Res, needs must, needs must!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I wouldn't worry, too much, about the fact that your simultaneously connected H10's would have to have different connections; any mis-match in volume levels, such as the slightest difference in volume control position between your 2 amps,  would probably cause just as significant a difference in perceived sq!
  
 Anyway, here's hoping that you have the time, and will, to do a little side-by-side comparing; I'm eager to read about your findings!


----------



## olek

This evening I have done a little experiment: switched H10 to smallest gain (-12db), locked its volume knob in max position, plugged 400i and fed it from m9xx, adjusting volume from m9xx.
  
 I like it so far - whatever is the reason, but that macro-dynamic softness that always bugs me a bit with H10 seems to have became less prominent, and that initial P-P-P-luck of strings seems to be more real, more prominent, and less soft. Overall, it is as overall 'soft' character of H10 is taking a step back, becoming just a tad more ... transparent.
  
 Interesting enough, simply switching to low gain and feeding proper 2V input signal at 1pm volume did not really do it.
  
 Maybe it just seems to me.... my ears are playing tricks on me! .... but I will keep trying it that way.
  
 If your DAC allows variable output (or if you use pre-amp before H10), just try it!
 Curious what other's experience will be.


----------



## willowbrook

I wish I had enough money to start a thread to experiment popular questionable setups and compare them side by side. That would help a whole bunch of people in finding gears of their preference. Ordering gears without hesitation and just waiting to try new things everyday would be the life...had be wandering after looking at Powerball jackpot


----------



## zilch0md

But finding the very best sound for your tastes is kind of like trying to find that most perfect meal that some restaurant out there is serving, which several people order and enjoy every day, but which you might never experience because, even if you read about it or even if a good friend, with whom you share similar tastes in this regard, tells you about it, it's not until you decide to make the trip to that restaurant and order that chef's creation for yourself, spending the money for yourself and sampling that unique combination of flavors and textures in your own mouth, that you'll have any chance of coming into a full awareness that it ticks every last one of your boxes, like nothing else can. 
  
 So, to all of us I say, "Good luck with that!"


----------



## bongieto

What is the latest on the Burson H10 setup? Considering these reported Burson issue, is it still recommended to install Burson v5 on H10s? I am interested as I am about to pull the trigger on these Burson op amps before somebody reported the issue. Any recommendation? Thanks!


----------



## BassDigger

TBH, I'd hold off; I would not recommend using the standard V5's, with the H10. As I understand it, Burson aren't shipping the higher tolerance models yet. I'd wait, at least, until then.
  
 BTW, I've still not received any response, from Burson, regarding my possible (probable) V5S issue. It's been 4 days now, since the popping, and every time that I think about doing some listening (with the original op-amps re-installed), my heart sinks; I just want to forget all about it!


----------



## bongieto

bassdigger said:


> TBH, I'd hold off; I would not recommend using the standard V5's, with the H10. As I understand it, Burson aren't shipping the higher tolerance models yet. I'd wait, at least, until then.
> 
> BTW, I've still not received any response, from Burson, regarding my possible (probable) V5S issue. It's been 4 days now, since the popping, and every time that I think about doing some listening (with the original op-amps re-installed), my heart sinks; I just want to forget all about it!


 

 Thanks! I agree.


----------



## willowbrook

There is life warranty anyway, is it even possible for the op-amp to physically damage the amp with exclusion of powerful burst from the op-amp?


----------



## wwmhf

willowbrook said:


> There is life warranty anyway, is it even possible for the op-amp to physically damage the amp with exclusion of powerful burst from the op-amp?


 
  
 A good question, and a critical one for us the H10 owners. 
  
 I think there is some probabilities there such as shot caused by short circuits and fire ...
  
 Since circuits in amps these days such as H10 are quite standard, it seems to be possible for Burson  to carry a thorough analysis and to generate a definite answer to your question.


----------



## manishex

A week after getting my replacement v5 duals, one is now causing white noise distortion 
Should I wait for the new tolerance design?


----------



## stuartmc

I must be a lucky guy. I have been using my full boat Bursons for several months now with no issues whatsoever. I'm extremely happy with the sound quality and the couple of times I switched back to my 797/823 combo only confirmed my impressions. 

I've been wondering about that max voltage rating and how that plays out practically as regards the voltage input to the H10. I'm running the X20 balanced with no attenuation into the H10 (which has very high output voltage) and I never have have the H10's volume control above 10 o'clock. I'm not an EE so I don't know whether this means I've been running the H10 below it's max rail voltage on the op-amps, or whether that is a static figure that is independent of input voltage and gain. Someone who knows should chime in.


----------



## MLegend

I wonder if gain has anything to do with it? I have all of the switches down and I haven't had any issues so far.


----------



## olek

I am not an expert in electronics but my limited knowledge from long time ago suggests that neither gain nor input voltage relate to opamp supply/rail voltage - that parameter is usually constant for a given design of amplifier.


----------



## jerick70

stuartmc said:


> I must be a lucky guy. I have been using my full boat Bursons for several months now with no issues whatsoever. I'm extremely happy with the sound quality and the couple of times I switched back to my 797/823 combo only confirmed my impressions.
> 
> I've been wondering about that max voltage rating and how that plays out practically as regards the voltage input to the H10. I'm running the X20 balanced with no attention into the H10 (which has very high output voltage) and I never have have the H10's volume control above 10 o'clock. I'm not an EE so I don't know whether this means I've been running the H10 below it's max rail voltage on the op-amps, our whether that is a static figure that is independent of input voltage and gain. Someone who knows should chime in.


 
  
  


mlegend said:


> I wonder if gain has anything to do with it? I have all of the switches down and I haven't had any issues so far.


 

 I'm in the same "Boat" as stuartmc and MLegend.  I've been running my full boat for months without issue.  With all of the hoopla here, I popped open my H10 yesterday and my Burson SS v5s are in pristine condition too.


----------



## jackharm

I probably have a good 200+ hours of runtime being full boat and most likely close to 400+ hours of overall runtime (burning in stock opamps, v5's and some headphones).
  
 No problems whatsoever (at least to what I can hear *knocks on wood*), and I have checked every now and then after leaving it on for a good number of hours for possible melting or leaking of plastic and glue. The only difference I believe between my H10 and others is that I have drilled a few vent holes on the lid (16 holes total) over where the opamps are situated.


----------



## slex

Those not affected by the heat issues properbly have a cool room temperature in winter time?

I'm in the tropic


----------



## tommo21

200+ hours with full boat Bursons, and the Single V5 in the left channel is starting to give out. I had hoped I had a good set of them, but now they need to go back. No visible problem on the Burson, but it smell a little like something inside has burnt or gotten too hot. Good that there's a lifetime guarantee...but also a little sad to ship them off...because the sound was absolutely stunning.


----------



## zilch0md

willowbrook said:


> There is life warranty anyway, is it even possible for the op-amp to physically damage the amp with exclusion of powerful burst from the op-amp?


 
  
 As Stu had said, I'm not an EE, but I would think it's much more likely that an amp could damage the op-amp, than the other way around, but it's not out of the question, certainly.
  


stuartmc said:


> I must be a lucky guy. I have been using my full boat Bursons for several months now with no issues whatsoever. I'm extremely happy with the sound quality and the couple of times I switched back to my 797/823 combo only confirmed my impressions.
> 
> I've been wondering about that max voltage rating and how that plays out practically as regards the voltage input to the H10. I'm running the X20 balanced with no attenuation into the H10 (which has very high output voltage) and I never have have the H10's volume control above 10 o'clock. I'm not an EE so I don't know whether this means I've been running the H10 below it's max rail voltage on the op-amps, or whether that is a static figure that is independent of input voltage and gain. Someone who knows should chime in.


 
  
  


mlegend said:


> I wonder if gain has anything to do with it? I have all of the switches down and I haven't had any issues so far.


 
  
  


olek said:


> I am not an expert in electronics but my limited knowledge from long time ago suggests that neither gain nor input voltage relate to opamp supply/rail voltage - that parameter is usually constant for a given design of amplifier.


 
  
 I agree.  The amp's input voltage (240 vs. 120) is not a factor.  And the voltage supplied to the op-amps (+/- 16V or +/- 16.5V, as measured in an H10 evaluated by Burson) _probably_ doesn't vary with the gain or volume settings. You can think of an amp's gain setting as a multiplier and the (attenuating) volume control as a divider.  For whatever combination of gain and attenuation setting you select to achieve a desired SPL in your headphones, the load or the amount of work performed by the amp (and its op-amps) will be the same - whether you decide to run with less gain and less attenuation, or more gain and more attenuation.
  
 But Stu's theory regarding his Line Level voltage (coming from the DAC) makes sense to me.  Anyone using a DAC that has a Line Level output less than the standard 2V rms will be causing the amp to work harder than it would with a higher Line Level voltage - to achieve any given desired SPL with any given headphone.
  
 Note that Burson hasn't communicated (here) any suspect factors other than the H10's supply voltage.
  
 By the way - even though this is not likely a factor in pampering your Burson V5 op-amps, for a given headphone, it's always best to choose the lowest gain that will allow you to achieve your desired SPL. This will give you the quietest possible noise floor and the most finesse when adjusting the volume control.  Using a higher gain than necessary raises the noise floor and leaves you with less travel on the volume control.


----------



## wwmhf

zilch0md said:


> Note that Burson hasn't communicated (here) any suspect factors other than the H10's supply voltage.
> By the way - even though this is not likely a factor in pampering your Burson V5 op-amps, for a given headphone, it's always best to choose the lowest gain that will allow you to achieve your desired SPL. This will give you the quietest possible noise floor and the most finesse when adjusting the volume control.  Using a higher gain than necessary raises the noise floor and leaves you with less travel on the volume control.


 
  
 Are you suggesting to set all the gain switches in the back of H10 to the bottom? I have been running my H10 with the +6db switch at the upper position. I will try the all bottom position when I get home today.


----------



## manishex

After one of my bursons broke, I measured 16.1v from the others, changing the gain and source didn't affect this.


----------



## zilch0md

wwmhf said:


> Are you suggesting to set all the gain switches in the back of H10 to the bottom? I have been running my H10 with the +6db switch at the upper position. I will try the all bottom position when I get home today.




I don't know how to minimize the H10's gain settings (I don't have an H10), but I am recommending that the gain be set as low as possible to achieve the SPL you desire with a given efficiency of headphone, such that the volume control is turned up higher instead of turned lower. 

For all amps with adjustable gain, start with the lowest gain setting. If this doesn't allow you to achieve the SPL you desire in your headphones, even with the volume control turned all the way up, turn down the volume and try the next highest gain setting. Stop at the gain setting that's just high enough to give you enough SPL at the headphones, wherever that leaves your volume control. The only reason to go to a higher gain setting is to achieve a higher SPL when the volume control is already maxed out.

This approach will give you a lower noise floor while having no impact on dynamics or headroom. You don't get more headroom by going to a higher gain setting. You just get more noise. Inefficient headphones (i,e. HE6) need more gain, but can't hear the noise that comes with using a higher gain setting. Efficient IEMs might hear hiss even on low gain, but it will be even worse on a higher gain setting.

Again, I don't think the gain settings will have any impact on making life easier for the Burson V5 op-amps. Using a DAC with a higher LIne Out voltage or using a more efficient headphone might help though, by way of giving the amp less work to do to reach your desired SPL. But the most obvious issue can't be user-compensated: The H10's supply voltage is too high for the current version of the Burson V5. (Or, if you prefer, the maximum permissible supply voltage of the current version of the Burson V5 is too low for the H10.)

On the subject of Line Level voltages coming from the DAC, some amps, both solid state and tube (but I don't know how to identify which ones other than by listening), will actually change from sounding more laid back, with reduced dynamics, if the voltage coming in from the DAC is reduced, while the same amp, after volume matching, could have more punch or slam and improved dynamics, if the Line Level voltage from the DAC is increased. 

For people who have DACs with adjustable output, increasing the DAC's output voltage while turning down the amp's volume (to keep the SPL the same) - or doing the inverse - might allow you to discover a "sweet spot" where the amp sees a load that it finds ideal. It's analagous to finding just the right gear when climbing a slight grade with a 10-speed bike. Too low a gear and you'll be working too hard to achieve a desired speed. Too high a gear and you'll be over-revving. Changing a DAC's output voltage is like shifting gears. Turning up the amp's gain and/or the amp's volume, is like pedaling faster. Switching to a less efficient headphone is like climbing a steeper hill.


----------



## zilch0md

manishex said:


> After one of my bursons broke, I measured 16.1v from the others, changing the gain and source didn't affect this.




Thanks for that info.


----------



## manishex

In fact the first time my bursons failed was when I had -12db setting on.
 For my sources, my bursons have three times each using a different DAC: fiio X5, Aune T1 and Audio-GD SA-1.32


----------



## willowbrook

I hope Burson is doing some serious testing to improve their V5s. I don't know the cost to manufacture one, but I'm guessing it isn't that much. However, incidents like this will lose potential buyers and will have to keep replacing damaged ones.


----------



## genclaymore

Are there any one here that has a HD700 if so what gain settings do you use? So I know when every my HD700 get here thanks. Also look like I gonna be starting up the op-amp swapping spree again, I hope I don't strip any more of the gustard H10 screws as it seem like they does that very often, I already did that to two of them, to the point that The spots on the back got messed up where I have to use Duct tape to keep the rear on the amp. If only I had a 3D printer or they sold pieces to the amp to replace the damage parts on the casing.
  
 I would had at least thought they would use better screws.


----------



## zilch0md (Aug 28, 2017)

manishex said:


> In fact the first time my bursons failed was when I had -12db setting on.
> For my sources, my bursons have three times, each using a different DAC: fiio X5, Aune T1 and Audio-GD SA-1.32


 

 Wow, you are a trooper, sticking it out through three failures.  

 Thus far, having had two V5 Duals in my iBasso PB2 portable amp for the past 12 Days, I've not detected any problems with their function, despite the cosmetic issues.

 Even if I did have to return a failed pair of Burson V5 op-amps, I would want to keep them coming under the Lifetime Warranty and continue using them, because* the sound of the Burson V5 is so much better than any other op-amp I've tried in about four years of rolling op-amps in the iBasso PB2.  *

 It's far better than my former favorites, the LME49990 (for the HD800) and the OPA1612 (for my LCD-2 rev.1, PM-1 and PM-3).  It has every bit as much detail as the OPA1612, which tends to be almost "crystaline" with the bright and highly resolving HD800, and it has an even more natural, musical sound than the LME49990, with none of the coloration of the MUSES 02 (a pair of which cost me $150 at mouser.com vs. the $130 pair of Burson V5 Duals.)  

 But it's the dynamics, soundstage, imaging, and oh so natural timbre of voices and acoustic instruments that blow my mind the most with the Burson V5s. The best soundstage and imaging tend to be very dependent on getting your noise floor way down. Well-designed battery-powered DACs and amps are a huge benefit here, unless you go out of your way to front-end your AC-powered gear with good power conditioning.



Spoiler: My relatively inexpensive power conditioning contraption



I use a voltage regulator and multiple isolation transformers with my desktop rig (with grounded-neutral secondaries for analog gear and floating-neutral secondaries for digital gear).

 See:  https://www.head-fi.org/threads/top...ansformers-for-affordably-clean-power.857448/


 
 What I didn't realize until I got the Burson V5 Duals is that my IC-based op-amps (i.e. the MUSES02, LME49990 and OPA1612 - ranked greatest to least noise) were the noisiest components in my battery-powered PB2.  Note that I feed the PB2 with either the battery-powered Sony Walkman NWZ-A17 DAP (bypassing its DAC and amp, using it only as a micro SD card reader for FLAC files) *-or-* a battery-powered iPod Touch 6 (bypassing its DAC and amp, using it only as a WiFi streamer or offline player for Tidal HiFi), as inputs to the very clean and transparent, battery-powered Oppo HA-2 ES9018K2M DAC (bypassing its amp) to drive the battery-powered PB2.  

 Sorry to keep writing "battery-powered" but I'm trying to emphasize that if you want to hear some really freaking clean and transparent audio, drop the Burson V5 into something that you can power with a capacitor-buffered battery pack. I'm tempted to get the 24V Burson Lycan headphone amp, because I've already got a battery power setup for my 24V speaker amp - the TGI Millinia MG3, but the Lycan can only generate half the power of tge balanced push-pull design iBasso PB2.




Spoiler: iBasso PB2 details, but also some V5 impressions and info on adding power caps



The PB2 has an internal LiPo battery that ranges in voltage from 9.0V when fully discharged to 12.6V when fully charged.  So, at least when using the internal battery, I'm pretty sure the PB2 doesn't supply more than +/-12.6V to the op-amps.

 But when running with an external power supply, the PB2 manual says it can handle up to 16V.  I have an Energizer XP8000 with which I can use my choice of a 15V inline voltage regulator (called the XPAL Willy Cable WI15) or a switchable 16V or 19V inline voltage regulator (called the XPAL Willy Cable WI16).













 Here's the PB2 after soldering some Elna SILMIC II 35V 10uF coupling capacitors across Pins 4 and 8 of two DIP8 extenders (two days ago):












 Burson's site has a couple of pages where this is discussed/recommended, but it was Head-Fi member "pelopidas" who suggested soldering the caps to the DIP8 extenders instead of soldering them directly to the op-amp pins.  Great idea!  They are a lot easier to A/B than desoldering and re-soldering the caps and I can use these with any dual op-amps.  

http://www.bursonaudio.com/tweaks-for-geeks/
http://www.bursonaudio.com/burson-ss-opamp-101-part-1-mkp-cap-tweak/

 Both of those pages talk about upgrading capacitors on the amp's PCB in addition to adding caps at the op-amps' pins, but I'm still too novice at soldering to venture any experimentation with upgrading the caps of my amp.  

 This will have to do, for now, and it's doing a great job of improving dynamics - with lots of power on reserve for those big drum hits and such.  The bass has more control, too.  Joy!  I didn't think it could get any better than what the V5 itself brings to the table, but people are adding these power coupling caps for a reason!





http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-PCs-ELNA-SILMIC-II-10uF-35V-ELECTROLYTIC-CAPACITORS-NEW-/191772894800

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Pin-Round-DIP-Socket-For-DIP8-Package-Pack-of-5-/300922720329






 
 So, back to V5 impressions...  Having lowered the noise floor with the Burson V5 Duals, the sound stage has expanded a lot and I can hear all kinds of micro details and trailing decays and a more realistic timbre for both voices and acoustic instruments, that I can't hear even with my best (but still "mid-fi") desktop rig - the Metrum Octave MkII > Metrum Aurix - the resolution showstopper there being the DAC, not the amp).  But where I've long enjoyed the Metrum stack for the "natural," non-fatiguing sound of the NOS DAC and zero-feedback amp, I am totally hooked on my little portable rig, now, as it takes me closer than ever before to what the best performance I can get from the HD800.  I don't know what Burson did to get solid state to sound this good, but it sounds just a little bit euphonic, but still very neutral and transparent - the kind of transparency and resolution you can only get with tubes by spending a lot of money. "Analog" might be a better choice of words than "euphonic," but only what we crave about analog sources, without the unsavory aspects that, again, can only be avoided by spending lots of money with analog sources.  For sure, the V5 doesn't sound as "digital" as any other op-amp I've used. 

 The imaging is more precise, with a few studio recordings sounding almost binaural - some stuff even comes from over one shoulder or the other, to the point I catch myself snapping my head around to look, but even though the soundstage is expansive, I don't feel as if I'm seated in the back of the auditorium, as I always did with the Beyerdyanmics T1 when driven by the Burson Soloist.  Instead, I'm right where I belong - in the first couple of rows back from the stage.  

 I don't know where this road ends, because the HD800 seems to scale to quality endlessly, but I'm enjoying my music like never before. It's not too much to say that the Burson V5 has been as emotionally impacting as when I first got my LCD0-2 rev.1, over four years ago.  That's saying a lot for an op-amp!  But I have much more analytical ears now, than I did back then, so that's part of it. Perhaps I'm just better able to appreciate the good stuff.  

 I look forward to getting back to my rig at every opportunity.  Everything else seems a distraction right now compared to just listening to music. 

 Meanwhile, Burson has given me a FedEx tracking number for a new pair of V5s - that aren't twisted at the base - coming at me free of charge. Joy!  Defects might sneak out of their warehouse from time to time, but I have to say, they are really good about rectifying the situation in the long run.


----------



## MLegend

*Meanwhile, Burson has given me a FedEx tracking number for a new pair of V5s - that aren't twisted at the base - coming at me free of charge*. Joy!  Defects might sneak out of their warehouse from time to time, but I have to say, they are really good about rectifying the situation in the long run.
 Wow, they're actually sending you a new pair? Damn, that's awesome. Good for you man!


----------



## zilch0md

mlegend said:


> Wow, they're actually sending you a new pair? Damn, that's awesome. Good for you man!


 
  
 Thanks!  
  
 On the photos I sent, Burson agreed that the V5s were defective, even though I am beyond satisfied with their sound.  And they were very gracious about it, too.  (No arm-twisting required.)
  
 The new Duals should be here tomorrow.
  
 Mike

  


Spoiler: Previously posted pics


----------



## swannie007

I've said it before but I think it's worth mentioning again, Burson has GREAT after-sales service! Are you listening A&K?
 Cheers from Oz.


----------



## jerick70

swannie007 said:


> I've said it before but I think it's worth mentioning again, Burson has GREAT after-sales service! Are you listening A&K?
> Cheers from Oz.


 

 I have to agree. The guys at Burson are top notch.  I've had nothing but excellent customer service from them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 May I point out that many companies have had issues like this with their product.  Apple, Samsung, all the top name companies.  These things are going to happen, we're dealing with electronics.  What defines them as a company is how they respond to the issues.  I think that Burson has responded admirably.  They are standing behind their product, no questions asked.  They are paying for shipping both ways and you are getting brand new product.  I think it speaks for itself. 
  
 Just my 2 cents.


----------



## swannie007

They paid for your shipping both ways!!!! I had to walk through ten miles of waist high snow to get mine! Just kidding. Cheers.


----------



## johangrb

swannie007 said:


> I've said it before but I think it's worth mentioning again, Burson has GREAT after-sales service! Are you listening A&K?
> Cheers from Oz.


 
 +1. My V5s popped - Burson paid for shipping both ways. Received my replacements - happy camper!


----------



## kyamei

They're paying shipping both ways?  They made me no such offer.


----------



## Noodlz

Haha same here I paid shipping to them, but that's not a big deal, still very nice of them to send brand new replacements. That being said I think mricy's issue is still not resolved yet..


----------



## wwmhf

Burson's V5s sound good, people running Burson are decent, I will definitely buy another set of Burson opamps for the next H10 (which is for my son).


----------



## manishex

Just got an E-mail from burson:
  
  
 "The H10 operates in 16V to 16.5V whereas our opamp has a stated upper tolerance limit of 15V.
 In the *new batch we'll implement* a stricter selection process so that only those which can tolerate up to 17V will be selected."
  
 "The ones which are not damaged indicated that they already can handle 17V without issues.  (all components have a tolerance range)  Therefore, please continue to use them with confidence.  Furthermore, if they fail in the future, they will always be replaced under the life-time replacement warranty."


----------



## zilch0md

I just received a replacement pair of V5 Duals - they are perfect in every way - functionally and cosmetically.


----------



## canthearyou

zilch0md said:


> I just received a replacement pair of V5 Duals - they are perfect in every way - functionally and cosmetically.



Nice!


----------



## tvnosaint

You just can't argue with lifetime replacement. My full boat is still in ship shape. Good news on the upgrade ,thanks


----------



## canthearyou

tvnosaint said:


> You just can't argue with lifetime replacement. My full boat is still in ship shape. Good news on the upgrade ,thanks



I sea what you did there.


----------



## wwmhf

zilch0md said:


> I just received a replacement pair of V5 Duals - they are perfect in every way - functionally and cosmetically.


 
  
 Now you can work on cutting the chase of your amp ....


----------



## zilch0md

wwmhf said:


> Now you can work on cutting the chase of your amp ....


 
  
 That's proving to be quite the challenge (getting these holes cut into my spare PB2 lid):
  

  
  


Spoiler: More off-topic stuff, but some Burson V5 impressions, too



I've been turned down by two water jet cutting services that are local to me - they say the job is too small - that they are booked, etc.
  
 I'm going to have to find a small machine shop some place and hope for the best.  I fully intend to proceed with the plan, because I can't even carry the amp safely in my HPRC 2400 case with the lid off - the V5 Duals would be too vulnerable - prone to getting bent pins or whatever.
  
 I'm so determined to protect the V5 Duals, that I'm also planning to have a cage of some kind built around them where they stick through the lid - somewhat like a tube protector.
  
 We shall see!  Talk is frustrating. I want to get it done.  
  
 Meanwhile, the Burson V5 sound is phenomenal. I really think the V5 Duals just happened to be _the last piece of the puzzle_ for my best "transportable" rig to drive the HD800.
  
 I was away for the weekend, and after nearly 72 hours of not listening to it, I was blown away all over again, last night. I even got up earlier than usual this morning to listen before going to work.
  
 If I take out the V5 Duals and go back to any of my other favorite op-amps, it's like the life just gets sucked out of the music. The soundstage shrinks, noise floor comes up, dynamics go flat, and one of the hardest things to describe...  the timbre of instruments and voices just reverts back to sounding sort of like midi music.  That's a huge exaggeration, of course, but it's like eating at a bad Chinese restaurant, where they use the same glaze on everything - making the pork, the beef, and the chicken dishes all taste the same. The original Schiit Vali does this to everything you run through it - kind of making everything sound the same.  The Burson V5 in an otherwise clean, transparent, solid state amp (fed by a very detailed, uncolored DAC) strips away that homogeneity of timbre, allowing each voice and instrument to show its true character.  I'm a huge trumpet fan and I cannot get over how real they sound, now.  Same for piano, drums, guitar and violin - anything acoustic just sounds real (finally!)  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm feeling apprehensive as I gush about the V5 this way, because I accept the fact that op-amps are way down the list of components ranked by how dramatic a change they can make, but I think they are a lot like DACs, or dare I say it, cables, in that a lot of people have concluded, "they all sound the same" or, at least, that there is only a very subtle change - _because: _Most likely, there are some other components in their chain that are smothering the component that is superlative. The Burson V5 deserves really good gear throughout the entire chain, but its $130 per pair price tag will entice a lot of people to try them when the rest of their system isn't up to snuff. But that's no reason to avoid buying them - you just have to realize that they're probably not the thing that's holding you back if they fail to make you squeal with joy.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I'm not promoting a big-spender mentality, though.  I'm all about "mid-fi", and as I've written before, this battery-powered "transportable rig" is really beating the pants off of everything else I currently own or have owned for making the finicky HD800 happy:
  



  
 Mike


----------



## genclaymore

I found the Bursons V5 Dual and single to work very well with my Sennheiser HD700 alot more then the HE-500 and alot more then the OPA627AU+V5-OPA-S I was using that I had in my Gustard for the HE-500..


----------



## wwmhf

genclaymore said:


> I found the Bursons V5 Dual and single to work very well with my Sennheiser HD700 alot more then the HE-500 and alot more then the OPA627AU+V5-OPA-S I was using that I had in my Gustard for the HE-500..


 
  
 Do you run those OPA627AUs on dual boards? I tried them that way and I did not like it either.


----------



## genclaymore

wwmhf said:


> Do you run those OPA627AUs on dual boards? I tried them that way and I did not like it either.


 

 Yea I did, I liked them with the HE-500's but not with the HD700s.


----------



## Socratease

Find someone with a home milling machine, would take them about 10 minutes to cut them.


----------



## hpamdr

zilch0md said:


> That's proving to be quite the challenge (getting these holes cut into my spare PB2 lid):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Mike,
 IMHO, a better approach could be to make bigger holes and stick/screw a small metalic box  or just a a stainless steel tea strainer to cover and keep some RFI sheilding. Circular hole are much easier to do even at home with this kind of tools.


----------



## zilch0md

^ Thanks!  You've got me thinking...  
  
 The amp would run a bit cooler that way, too...
  
 but it might end up looking more DIY than I want.  Still worthy of consideration though - especially if I covered them with something that's sharp looking - that somehow fits the style of the current chassis.


----------



## Vanusk

H10 out for delivery.
  
  
 The wait is real ship mates


----------



## canthearyou

vanusk said:


> H10 out for delivery.
> 
> 
> The wait is real ship mates


 
 Ohhhh maaan!!!


----------



## Vanusk

Boy does this thing look great.
  
  
 I noticed my volume pot has some side to side jiggle to it, which makes a nice clunky metal noise inside -_-
  
 With the most amount of jiggle at the quietest volume setting, and least jiggle at the loudest setting.
  
  
  
 I clearly don't have the manpower to take the case off with a hex driver so I might have to bust out a power tool. Hopefully it's not a big deal
  
  
 Edit: Also my plug says 6A 250V, is this going to be an issue if the amp I have is supposed to be 110v?


----------



## willowbrook

vanusk said:


> Boy does this thing look great.
> 
> 
> I noticed my volume pot has some side to side jiggle to it, which makes a nice clunky metal noise inside -_-
> ...




Mine also jiggles, but the rest is like a tank. There are two voltage switches inside.


----------



## Vanusk

willowbrook said:


> Mine also jiggles, but the rest is like a tank. There are two voltage switches inside.


 
  
 Just checked inside, both set to 110v so I'm set.
  
  
 Also the volume pot jiggle is because it looks like there is a small gap between where the metal rod goes through the case.  Probably less than 1mm, maybe half a mm. Tiny but enough for some jiggle action.


----------



## Vanusk

Hmm a conundrum.  I have a volume pot on my dac, and on my headphone amp and they both can control the volume at the same time.  What to do?


----------



## wwmhf

vanusk said:


> Hmm a conundrum.  I have a volume pot on my dac, and on my headphone amp and they both can control the volume at the same time.  What to do?


 
  
 In this case, I will turn the volume on the dac high and use the volume pot on the amp to adjust for a volume suitable for my ears. 
  
 Let me know if any other options/configurations are better.


----------



## pippen99

vanusk said:


> Hmm a conundrum.  I have a volume pot on my dac, and on my headphone amp and they both can control the volume at the same time.  What to do?


 
 My DAC has a volume control with a remote control also.  I believe most SS amps can handle the full output of most any DAC.  I set my DAC at near full output then set my amp at a comfortable listening level.  I then make small adjustments with the remote to adjust levels for the dynamics of individual tracks.  If you don't have a remote do the above and adjust by whatever piece of equipment is the most convenient.


----------



## Vanusk

I just set my dac to max and use the H10 for actual volume control.  Seems to make more sense I think.
  
 What do you guys think of burn in time with this unit?  I feel like I'm hearing more sub bass compared to my old nuforce icon hdp.  Hard to tell so early, I think my brain needs to adjust to this new 'normal' sound for a while before I can really pick it apart.  Using dt990s


----------



## olek

Burn in time of at least 70 hours is a semi-consensus of local mateys.
 And sound can take turn for the worse around 20-30 hours, nothing to be alarmed, no need to make a noose out of interconnects, it will clear up in time.
  
 Some reported having no burn-in, so that happens too.


----------



## wwmhf

vanusk said:


> Just checked inside, both set to 110v so I'm set.
> 
> 
> Also the volume pot jiggle is because it looks like there is a small gap between where the metal rod goes through the case.  Probably less than 1mm, maybe half a mm. Tiny but enough for some jiggle action.


 
  
 I just checked the H10 on my desk. It jiggles a little, more obvious at the minimum.


----------



## Vanusk

This amp really brings out the dt990s.  The bass hits harder, lower, dryer and faster.  The treble is much stronger too.  I can finally hear what people were talking about with the recessed mids in comparison to the bass/treble.  I always thought the dt990s sounded fairly normal with a small V curve, but that's only because my previous amp just wasn't giving them justice.  The V curve is definitely much stronger now.  The bass alone is miles ahead of where it used  to be.  It used to be all boomy with some glow.  Now it's just so damn dry, hard and fast.  I only have 20+ hrs at this point but the amp feels much less strained compared to the somewhat disappointment of hearing it for the first time.
  
 I think I may be coming to the conclusion that the bass is just too overpowering compared to the other frequencies. (un)fortunately this only helps confirm the fact I need to grab some he-500s


----------



## willowbrook

vanusk said:


> This amp really brings out the dt990s.  The bass hits harder, lower, dryer and faster.  The treble is much stronger too.  I can finally hear what people were talking about with the recessed mids in comparison to the bass/treble.  I always thought the dt990s sounded fairly normal with a small V curve, but that's only because my previous amp just wasn't giving them justice.  The V curve is definitely much stronger now.  The bass alone is miles ahead of where it used  to be.  It used to be all boomy with some glow.  Now it's just so damn dry, hard and fast.  I only have 20+ hrs at this point but the amp feels much less strained compared to the somewhat disappointment of hearing it for the first time.
> 
> I think I may be coming to the conclusion that the bass is just too overpowering compared to the other frequencies. (un)fortunately this only helps confirm the fact I need to grab some he-500s


 
 If you can bear the weight...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I think comfort is an important aspect to consider if sensitive to weight and fit. The only reason I didn't go with the HE-500 or LCD-2 was the weight, there is no way I can handle 500g for more than an hour. Well, warm is not my thing either so...you should also look into 400i, I heard it's a very good match with the H10.


----------



## wwmhf

vanusk said:


> This amp really brings out the dt990s.  The bass hits harder, lower, dryer and faster.  The treble is much stronger too.  I can finally hear what people were talking about with the recessed mids in comparison to the bass/treble.  I always thought the dt990s sounded fairly normal with a small V curve, but that's only because my previous amp just wasn't giving them justice.  The V curve is definitely much stronger now.  The bass alone is miles ahead of where it used  to be.  It used to be all boomy with some glow.  Now it's just so damn dry, hard and fast.  I only have 20+ hrs at this point but the amp feels much less strained compared to the somewhat disappointment of hearing it for the first time.
> 
> I think I may be coming to the conclusion that the bass is just too overpowering compared to the other frequencies. (un)fortunately this only helps confirm the fact I need to grab some he-500s


 
  
 If you really like the sound signature but would like to alleviate it's V curve a little, then you can try some of the equalizers depending on your music player.


----------



## tommo21

Anyone got an explanation  to why my Opa627BP's don't work in the single opamp positions? The single and dual bursons need to go back to get checked, and I hoped to use the 627's meanwhile. The original ones work, and also Opa604, but not 627's. They work in another application I've got though. 
  
 I'll also use the 49720HA's in the dual position for now.


----------



## wwmhf

tommo21 said:


> Anyone got an explanation  to why my Opa627BP's don't work in the single opamp positions? The single and dual bursons need to go back to get checked, and I hoped to use the 627's meanwhile. The original ones work, and also Opa604, but not 627's. They work in another application I've got though.
> 
> I'll also use the 49720HA's in the dual position for now.


 
  
 Opa627BPs work in my H10s.
  
 However, when they are used in the older H10 of mine, the amp sometimes (randomly) could not play any sound after turned on. I had to turn it off and wait a few of seconds; then it would work as expected after turned on. I haven't noticed this shortcoming in my recent H10 bought for my son.


----------



## tommo21

wwmhf said:


> Opa627BPs work in my H10s.
> 
> However, when they are used in the older H10 of mine, the amp sometimes (randomly) could not play any sound after turned on. I had to turn it off and wait a few of seconds; then it would work as expected after turned on. I haven't noticed this shortcoming in my recent H10 bought for my son.


 

 Thanx for the tip mate. It works like a charm now. Can't really explain it though, as I pulled them out and put them in several times yesterday.


----------



## wwmhf

tommo21 said:


> Thanx for the tip mate. It works like a charm now. Can't really explain it though, as I pulled them out and put them in several times yesterday.


 
  
 Glad to know this helps for your H10 too.
  
 I am also interested to know why a H10 can behave this way when OPA627BPs are sit inside, especially why this happens in one H10 but not the other.


----------



## canthearyou

tommo21 said:


> Thanx for the tip mate. It works like a charm now. Can't really explain it though, as I pulled them out and put them in several times yesterday.







wwmhf said:


> Glad to know this helps for your H10 too.
> 
> I am also interested to know why a H10 can behave this way when OPA627BPs are sit inside, especially why this happens in one H10 but not the other.




Maybe it has something to do with voltage variations? Does maybe the order things are turned on have an effect on the voltage supplied to the op-amps? 

*just rambling


----------



## tommo21

I have to say....with the combination of 627BP singles, and 49720HA duals, it's not a bad combination.It lacks the width and depth and also the resolution of the Burson full boat, but I could live happily with this combination as well. The slight darkness of the 627's combined with the brighter 49720's gives a very neutral sound from top to bottom.


----------



## desik

noodlz said:


> What's interesting is that with the dynamic cans i noticed only a slight improvement over time after the 25 hour mark, but the LCD 2.2 shows a remarkable improvement with further burn in. The Mad Dog 3.2 showed only slight improvements in contrast, despite being an ortho as well. (it's still performing better than the dynamic cans though)


 
 Sorry for late jump-in.
  
 I'm interested in pairing Mad Dog Pro with Gustard. Which amp are you coming from in this comparison?


----------



## Resonant

Tommo21,
  
 (I messed up the quote in the reply...)
  
 I'm not too surprised your 627BP singles tamed the LME49720HA duals' "brightness".  In my setup, the LME49720HA duals paired with AN797BRZ singles were a little _too _crisp for my tastes (I could live with it, but kind bright...), then after pairing them with Burson V5 singles, I found they mellowed just enough and are quite fine together.   I'll compare that to the full-boat Burson setup when my 'boat comes in'.  
  
 Did you get yours mounted on DIP-8 sockets, and with the finned heatsink collars, as mine did ? (mine are exactly as pictured, below) 
  

  
  
 Those TO-99 packages are designed for (relatively) hot-running semiconductors, and these LME49720HAs definitely put out some heat so extra heatsinking is advisable.  In fact, I'm sure that is why the metal can package is used compared to 'regular' op-amp packaging, to radiate that heat and so in some applications, extra heatsinking can be attached.
  
 These are rated up to 17V supply voltage which is .5V higher than the Gustard's 16.5V, so that is 'safe' by design.  They will run hot in an H10 but with the additional heatsinks, I've had no issues or concerns.


----------



## Socratease

Sounds like a protection circuit kicking in, but that's just a guess.


----------



## desik

sunneebear said:


> Gone full Burson with my H10.


 
 Can you please compare the vanilla H10 with the modded one?


----------



## tommo21

resonant said:


> Tommo21,
> 
> (I messed up the quote in the reply...)
> 
> ...


 
 Yes they are mounted/soldered on to adapters with gold pins. This is a small pcb adapter and not straight into sockets. I've not mounted the heatsinks yet, but I've got them on the way in the mail, so they will be mounted as soon as I get them.
  
 I might also be interested in testing out OPA827 and AD8066 singles as well. I've got a DAC that also has sockets for the opamps, so I'll try there as well. In this application I've got three OPA2107's and 1 49720HA. Strange layout in the dac, but that's what it is.


----------



## sunneebear

desik said:


> Can you please compare the vanilla H10 with the modded one?


 
 Sorry for replying so late, kind of busy now.
 My comparisons are not detailed like many others that have posted here, please search back.  My Bursons are also the V4 so they might not sound the same as the V5's now available.  I have been a Burson fan since their 1st gen discrete op-amp.  That is why I bought a full set for my H10 as soon as I could.  In my opinion the $200 for a full set is well worth the price.  A $1000 in interconnects and headphone cables will not do what the Burson's can but in this hobby many people have dished out a grand in cables for that tiny bit of sonic enhancement.


----------



## Socratease

olek said:


> Burn in time of at least 70 hours is a semi-consensus of local mateys.
> And sound can take turn for the worse around 20-30 hours, nothing to be alarmed, no need to make a noose out of interconnects, it will clear up in time.


 
 Holy cow, you weren't kidding.  My H10 is finally starting to sound REAL GOOD after about 6 days of burn-in.  It sounded so bad a couple of days ago that I was beginning to think it was broke.  I always thought burning in solid-state gear was an urban legend, but I'm a believer now.
  
 Burson V5s are on their way.  If it makes it sound any better I don't know if I can stand it.  The distortion went away, the shrillness is gone, everything is getting smoother and the sound stage seems to be getting wider and deeper.  Nice match for the HD650, the veiled sound that was obvious on my NAD I don't notice on the H10.


----------



## olek

Glad it worked out for you!
  
 Some (most?) SS gear does not show much effect of burn-in, but H10 definitely is affected by it.
  
 BH Crack/Speedball is even better match for HD650, but only slightly, and at a higher cost/hassle.
  
 I have finally disconnected Crack from my main system and feeding everything through H10 for the time being.
  
 Which means I am probably going to full boat bursons soon.
  
 Anybody remembers when their V5 opamps are supposed to be tested to higher voltage? I remember something about February, but was it beginning, middle or end?
 If I am gonna roll that dice, at least gotta get me some extra chances of success up my sleeve, arrr, arrr.


----------



## manishex

Burson told me on the 2nd of Feb I would receive the 17v batch replacement, but I don't know when they will dispatch or if they have already.


----------



## MLegend

burson audio said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Recently we have received a few warranty claims from customers using the V5 in their Gustard H10. Since the V5 had a very solid quality track record up until these incidents, we were very concerned by them. Therefore, we have obtained a H10 to investigate.
> 
> ...


----------



## olek

Thank you. Looks like the time for higher-voltage batch is coming son.


----------



## lenroot77

Anyone looking to part with their beloved h10? 
Pm me please


----------



## johangrb

olek said:


> Thank you. Looks like the time for higher-voltage batch is coming son.


 
 My 2nd batch of V5 singles developed the same problem as my 1st after 10 days (loud popping noises). Contacted Burson -17V versions are on the way. 
  
 Great support again from the guys at Burson! They certainly stand by their products.


----------



## swannie007

Great to see this level of customer service! These guys deserve our business.


----------



## Resonant

swannie007 said:


> Great to see this level of customer service! These guys deserve our business.


 I couldn't agree more; Burson has been stellar in every aspect of their handling of this issue. Rather than point fingers at suppliers or customers, they stepped up, owned the problem, and have stood behind ther product(s) 100%. They are a paragon of proper business conduct and quality product delivery. That's a major part of why I ordered a full-buat set of V-5's after the issue 1st appeared but before it was fully diagnosed. 

The other part of why I place my trust in this small company all the way down under the far side of the planet, is because their V-5's sound so damned good!


----------



## willowbrook

I'm currently using V5 singles + stock duals with HE-560 (focus pads) and I feel that treble isn't aggressive enough for me, sounding very natural like a superior version of HD600. Anyone can give me some tips on what dual opamps to go by for a more brighter sound (more air, treble) except for V5 (too expensive). I've been thinking LME49720HA, local store sells them for $30 with dip sockets for 2. I already have a pair of AD823ANZ, but first impression wasn't impressive. Anyone have experience with focus-a pads that will solve the problem or do I need a new DAC that is sabre chip based? The V5 singles were a huge improvement over stock singles and I'm hoping stock duals to something like LME49720HA will have similar amount of improvement too. Any suggestions are really appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## johangrb

willowbrook said:


> I'm currently using V5 singles + stock duals with HE-560 (focus pads) and I feel that treble isn't aggressive enough for me, sounding very natural like a superior version of HD600. Anyone can give me some tips on what dual opamps to go by for a more brighter sound (more air, treble) except for V5 (too expensive). I've been thinking LME49720HA, local store sells them for $30 with dip sockets for 2. I already have a pair of AD823ANZ, but first impression wasn't impressive. Anyone have experience with focus-a pads that will solve the problem or do I need a new DAC that is sabre chip based? The V5 singles were a huge improvement over stock singles and I'm hoping stock duals to something like LME49720HA will have similar amount of improvement too. Any suggestions are really appreciated. Thanks.


 
 Maybe try Burson V4 duals? (I'm running them and loving it - just waiting for my V5 17V replacements).


----------



## Socratease

swannie007 said:


> Great to see this level of customer service! These guys deserve our business.


 
 Agreed.  That's going above and beyond, much appreciated.


----------



## genclaymore

willowbrook said:


> I'm currently using V5 singles + stock duals with HE-560 (focus pads) and I feel that treble isn't aggressive enough for me, sounding very natural like a superior version of HD600. Anyone can give me some tips on what dual opamps to go by for a more brighter sound (more air, treble) except for V5 (too expensive). I've been thinking LME49720HA, local store sells them for $30 with dip sockets for 2. I already have a pair of AD823ANZ, but first impression wasn't impressive. Anyone have experience with focus-a pads that will solve the problem or do I need a new DAC that is sabre chip based? The V5 singles were a huge improvement over stock singles and I'm hoping stock duals to something like LME49720HA will have similar amount of improvement too. Any suggestions are really appreciated. Thanks.


 
 The LT1489,Two pair's of AD797AN/BRZ, might do it for you. I know the LT1469 was too bright for me when I tried it with the V5 singles so that also might work for you.


----------



## willowbrook

genclaymore said:


> The LT1489,Two pair's of AD797AN/BRZ, might do it for you. I know the LT1469 was too bright for me when I tried it with the V5 singles so that also might work for you.



Have you tried the lme49720ha with V5 singles? I am using stock dual right now and it sounds natural. Very bright op amps might be too bright compared to stock.


----------



## wwmhf

willowbrook said:


> I'm currently using V5 singles + stock duals with HE-560 (focus pads) and I feel that treble isn't aggressive enough for me, sounding very natural like a superior version of HD600. Anyone can give me some tips on what dual opamps to go by for a more brighter sound (more air, treble) except for V5 (too expensive). I've been thinking LME49720HA, local store sells them for $30 with dip sockets for 2. I already have a pair of AD823ANZ, but first impression wasn't impressive. Anyone have experience with focus-a pads that will solve the problem or do I need a new DAC that is sabre chip based? The V5 singles were a huge improvement over stock singles and I'm hoping stock duals to something like LME49720HA will have similar amount of improvement too. Any suggestions are really appreciated. Thanks.


 
  
 LME49720HA seems to be a good candidate for you. You can also try LT1364 which is little less expensive.


----------



## wwmhf

willowbrook said:


> Have you tried the lme49720ha with V5 singles? I am using stock dual right now and it sounds natural. Very bright op amps might be too bright compared to stock.


 
  
 To me, LME49720ha with V5 singles sound brighter than Burson V5 duals + singles, but they sound good enough.


----------



## willowbrook

wwmhf said:


> To me, LME49720ha with V5 singles sound brighter than Burson V5 duals + singles, but they sound good enough.


 
  


genclaymore said:


> The LT1489,Two pair's of AD797AN/BRZ, might do it for you. I know the LT1469 was too bright for me when I tried it with the V5 singles so that also might work for you.


 
 Thanks, I may have to roll some op amps until I get to my preference. At least they aren't as expensive as tubes.


----------



## hongant

I've a set of 797/823 I'll let go for a cheap price for ppl from Europe. I've upgraded to Burson V5's so don't need them anymore. PM me  if interested.


----------



## zilch0md

willowbrook said:


> I'm currently using V5 singles + stock duals with HE-560 (focus pads) and I feel that treble isn't aggressive enough for me, sounding very natural like a superior version of HD600. *Anyone can give me some tips on what dual opamps to go by for a more brighter sound (more air, treble) except for V5 (too expensive).* I've been thinking LME49720HA, local store sells them for $30 with dip sockets for 2. I already have a pair of AD823ANZ, but first impression wasn't impressive. Anyone have experience with focus-a pads that will solve the problem or do I need a new DAC that is sabre chip based? The V5 singles were a huge improvement over stock singles and I'm hoping stock duals to something like LME49720HA will have similar amount of improvement too. Any suggestions are really appreciated. Thanks.


 
  
 I don't have an H10, but just going on the sound of them relative to many other op-amps, I recommend you try the OPA1612.  
  
 OPA1612 is the dual version of OPA1611.  
  
 They are very transparent, detailed and neutral, not rolled off in the highs at all.
  
 They are not "bright," but they are too bright for my HD800, for example.
  
 Mike


----------



## Yeskey

Almost 120 hours in on a set of SS V5 singles and after some popping noises, I opened the case and the op amps had melted. Waiting on Burson's reply. These were part of the old stock from Christmas.


----------



## canthearyou

yeskey said:


> Almost 120 hours in on a set of SS V5 singles and after some popping noises, I opened the case and the op amps had melted. Waiting on Burson's reply. These were part of the old stock from Christmas.




Sorry to hear that. I guess that means I'm next in line.


----------



## wwmhf

yeskey said:


> Almost 120 hours in on a set of SS V5 singles and after some popping noises, I opened the case and the op amps had melted. Waiting on Burson's reply. These were part of the old stock from Christmas.


 
  
 It looks like that we should all keep an eye on our Bursons while enjoying the sound from them...


----------



## auvgeek

Can anyone offer comparisons between the H10 full boat V5s and the Schiit Mjolnir 2? I realize there's a price difference, but a while ago Stu said he thought the H10 w. V5s would "run circles around most anything under $1500." I specifically care about bass impact, imaging/separation, and microdynamics. 
  
 I'm trying to figure out where to go from here with the stock H10 + HE-560s.


----------



## willowbrook

zilch0md said:


> I don't have an H10, but just going on the sound of them relative to many other op-amps, I recommend you try the OPA1612.
> 
> OPA1612 is the dual version of OPA1611.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the suggestions, however I am quite liking the V5 singles & the stock duals. I also have the ad823 and I think there is something special about the 823 compared to the stock 5532. It adds some distortion in the high frequency along with the treble and it slightly sounds more grainy, but punchier. Gives a more "house" sound. However, the difference is very minimal that 823 is not worth it for me because I listen to a lot of trance which is known for its killing treble and 823 just sounds harsh and shrill. Cringeworthy enough for me to turn down the volume to save my ears. 5532 are very enjoyable and sounds more clear and accurate compared to 823. That being said, I think I need to try the 49720 that everyone has been praising for that last bit of correction. Only if they weren't so expensive...


----------



## willowbrook

To be honest, I actually find the stock op-amps to be just as enjoyable as the half boat. They are not as detailed, but they are indeed warmer which can be a good thing too. However, I have to agree with everyone that V5 singles immensely improve experience over the stock ones. The difference is there and it's pretty amazing, all I can say is clarity and detail.


----------



## Yeskey

Just received word from Burson, their new batch will be ready to ship in about 10 days. In the meantime, I can chill with the stock sig till the full-boat arrives.


----------



## stuartmc

auvgeek said:


> Can anyone offer comparisons between the H10 full boat V5s and the Schiit Mjolnir 2? I realize there's a price difference, but a while ago Stu said he thought the H10 w. V5s would "run circles around most anything under $1500." I specifically care about bass impact, imaging/separation, and microdynamics.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out where to go from here with the stock H10 + HE-560s.




I'm running the H10 with the HE-560s too. I did all the Jerg mods to my 560s and if you haven't done the mods already, I highly recommend that you give it a try . The other worthy modification is to lose the stock headphone cable and replace it with something much superior . I am using the ALO salt and pepper cable and I am very pleased with the improvement. 

 I haven't had the chance to listen to the schiit gear but I will stand by my statement that the full boat Burson's make the H10 sound just ridiculously good and I would not be surprised at all if the sound performance with my HE 560s was superior to that with the Mjolnir.


----------



## swannie007

Hey Captain, good to see you are still monitoring this thread. Hope all is well with you. I am still enjoying my "half boat" H10 every day with the ME49720HA duals and I am very happy with the performance. I suspect I would need to spend quite a bit to get measurable improvements on this setup. Take care and warm greetings from Oz.


----------



## slex

My replacement voltage regulator came today and decide to open up my H10. On closer look , 1 of the very tiny chip is badly burned ( Q18 ) tagged next to the regulator I suppose to change according to the tech support.

Is the board gone case or still can be rescued?


----------



## canthearyou

slex said:


> My replacement voltage regulator came today and decide to open up my H10. On closer look , 1 of the very tiny chip is badly burned ( Q18 ) tagged next to the regulator I suppose to change according to the tech support.
> 
> Is the board gone case or still can be rescued?




Damn!


----------



## zilch0md




----------



## canthearyou

zilch0md said:


>




It's done!


----------



## zilch0md




----------



## slex

Thats the smallest fork on earth


----------



## jaywillin

haven't checked in on the good ship GUSTARD in a while, although i have been keeping tabs.
 i have held off on the bursons until the new ones start rolling out, but in the meantime.........
 the 797brzs i'd ordered had arrived doa, and i had the seller send me a replacement pair. 
 they just arrived today, and are in the h10 now, and working as they should, i also replaced the 
 823s with lme49990ma's,i know i should have only made one change at the time, but i was impatient .
 my immediate impression was i was hearing more detail, but possibly too much, maybe just a bit 
 of harshness compared to the 797anz/823 combo i had been using for the last month or so.
 all this is very, very preliminary , we shall see how things develop


----------



## wwmhf

jaywillin said:


> haven't checked in on the good ship GUSTARD in a while, although i have been keeping tabs.
> i have held off on the bursons until the new ones start rolling out, but in the meantime.........
> the 797brzs i'd ordered had arrived doa, and i had the seller send me a replacement pair.
> they just arrived today, and are in the h10 now, and working as they should, i also replaced the
> ...


 
  
 I will be grateful if you can share your impression about the differences between 797brzs and 797anzs.


----------



## jaywillin

wwmhf said:


> I will be grateful if you can share your impression about the differences between 797brzs and 797anzs.


 
 i think tomorrow i'm put the 823's back in, that'll give me a better picture of how the anz and bnz differ, so, stay tuned


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, previous member of this forum coming back to see if anybody can offer advice -
 I often get a loud glitchy sound between tracks with my Gustard X12. It's not every time, but recently it has been extra bothersome - it's like a blip of about 1/10th of a second, but it's so loud that it seems like it can damage my hearing over time; being at least 5-10db louder than the music I'm playing.
  
 Here's my setup: Windows laptop > Wyrd via USB > X12 via USB, then out to either of my amps. I listen at a moderately loud volume, closer to quiet than loud so it's not a case of amping too hot. The player I'm using is AIMP, which sends audio data directly to the DAC with the XMOS USB audio driver. Maybe there is a newer driver somewhere?
  
 This problem has seriously got me eyeing one of the newer Bifrosts instead. Also has anyone done a comparison between these two?
  
 I'm aware of this being the H10 thread but I was told earlier this thread is for both since the X12 didn't have a thread. Thanks in advance!


----------



## zilch0md

^ Is the laptop's USB port providing 5VDC power to anything downstream?  
  
 If so, you could rule out the laptop's 5V power bus as a source for those "lightning strikes" as I call them, by feeding everything downstream with 5V power from a separately powered USB hub.  Any hub that has its own 5V transformer to plug into an AC outlet will do fine, for this test.  Run a USB cable from the laptop to the USB hub, then plug the rest of your USB chain into a port on the hub.  See if that makes those loud crashing sounds go away.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 If that works, we can talk about getting you a cleaner-sounding 5V power supply...


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks for the tips. I just plugged the USB cable into my powered USB hub and (so far anyway), it seems the lightening has ceased. It's a concern though that this is a multi-USB hub shared with 6 other USB components - so wouldn't anybody have an idea if this would degrade the audio quality in any way, rather than directly connected? Initial testing has shown me the quality sounds the same, just a bit louder.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well, turns out it was only the first few songs that lacked that lightening bolt, but now the super annoying bolt is large and in charge between songs with my X12 DAC, even when connected to this powered USB hub


----------



## willowbrook

decentlevi said:


> Well, turns out it was only the first few songs that lacked that lightening bolt, but now the super annoying bolt is large and in charge between songs with my X12 DAC, even when connected to this powered USB hub


 

 Maybe a problem with the storage if you use HDD? I get some glitches every few songs at the beginning and that is solely due to my overused HDD.


----------



## hpamdr

decentlevi said:


> Well, turns out it was only the first few songs that lacked that lightening bolt, but now the super annoying bolt is large and in charge between songs with my X12 DAC, even when connected to this powered USB hub


 

 DL:
 do you use some plugin with aimp that preload in memory your song or do some over-sampling ? 
 did you tried to run aimp from a virtual in memory drive ?
  
 To verify if you have some issue with AIMP, you could use a player like uLilith http://www.project9k.jp/download/uLilith/
 You can also get some new driver from XMOS if your ersion is not 2.32 (windows 10 support)  http://www.xmos.com/support/usb-audio-driver-support
  
 Normally your POS should protect the dac from any usb annoyance if not this is weird...


----------



## fritobugger

I had a similar problem when setting up my SMSL M8 to play back all files as DSD using Foobar.  I have to make some changes in the DSD conversion settings.
  
 Are you using the latest X12 firmware?


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello guys, thanks so much for your help thus far.
  
 I had XMOS version 2.26 on Windows 10. So I took your advice and went to the XMOS site for a newer version. But after downloading, it became apparent this scheeming company hid the fact that this was a trial version only. So after deleting the trial, I look at my device manager to see the previous XMOS was removed, now I have NO AUDIO.
  
 That would be super helpful if someone would please send me a PM with a link to download the newest XMOS driver for free. I paid for the Gustard X12 DAC, and I can find no reason under the sun why I should have to pay for the XMOS driver just to get sound out of it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 How greedy is that?! Anyway, THANKS...


----------



## wwmhf

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, thanks so much for your help thus far.
> 
> I had XMOS version 2.26 on Windows 10. So I took your advice and went to the XMOS site for a newer version. But after downloading, it became apparent this scheeming company hid the fact that this was a trial version only. So after deleting the trial, I look at my device manager to see the previous XMOS was removed, now I have NO AUDIO.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Try these locations if you are brave enough (not afraid of virus, chinese ...):
  
 V2.26: 
  

http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp
  

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AKASKTkcgS8A2xE&id=D0AB7686EA250D95%214056&cid=D0AB7686EA250D95
  

http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp
  
 V3.2:
  

http://pan.baidu.com/s/1V7oJG


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I was finally able to upgrade to the newest driver, but it seems the 'lightening bolts' between songs could be even worse. Guess I'll have to sell my X12


----------



## canthearyou

decentlevi said:


> Well I was finally able to upgrade to the newest driver, but it seems the 'lightening bolts' between songs could be even worse. Guess I'll have to sell my X12 :blink:




Where did you buy it from? Do they offer a warranty?

Wait...have you tried a different player, yet? Try Foobar.


----------



## willowbrook

Maybe buffer size is too low?


----------



## DecentLevi

I got it from Massdrop last year. Not sure if they offer a warranty. So I also tried reducing the buffer (cache size) to 0 and switched to another USB port, and reset the player. Now so far it's actually working without pops. 
  
 I even contacted the merchant and the manufactuer but so far it seems they don't have a driver. Crazy! But thanks to you guys for the driver link.
  
 PS- I guess none of you have compared the X12 to a Bifrost?


----------



## genclaymore

I had a Bifrost uber my self, but not both at the same time. Sadly I don't recall what the bifrost uber sounded like. Unless your talking about the newer bifrost's.


----------



## leggy

Now the H10 is available on Massdrop, I have few questions before I join the drop.
Currently have Asgard2, how it is compared to H10 in terms of detail retrieval, clarity and brightness?
My set up is laptop (mostly 320kbps Google music), iBasso D14 dac, AKG Q701 and DT990Pro 250ohm


----------



## happyguitarist

Any update on the new batch of Burson V5s?


----------



## manishex

I was told it will be ready by next week


----------



## leggy

happyguitarist said:


> Any update on the new batch of Burson V5s?



Would the new batch from Massdrop supposed to come with the Burdon V5 pre installed?


----------



## jaywillin

leggy said:


> Would the new batch from Massdrop supposed to come with the Burdon V5 pre installed?


 
 i couldn't see how that would be the case, the bursons have to be bought from burson


----------



## leggy

jaywillin said:


> i couldn't see how that would be the case, the bursons have to be bought from burson



I was in doubt so wanted to make sure


----------



## jaywillin

leggy said:


> I was in doubt so wanted to make sure


 
 the two pair together are about 2/3 of the price of the h10 if i remember correctly
 anyway, it never hurts to ask !


----------



## happyguitarist

Thanks manishex.  And no, I wasn't referring to the current Massdrop.  I read on this thread that Burson will be shipping out a new batch of V5s that will work better with the H10.


----------



## fritobugger

leggy said:


> Now the H10 is available on Massdrop, I have few questions before I join the drop.
> Currently have Asgard2, how it is compared to H10 in terms of detail retrieval, clarity and brightness?
> My set up is laptop (mostly 320kbps Google music), iBasso D14 dac, AKG Q701 and DT990Pro 250ohm




Based on reviews of the Asgard2 I would expect it to be a little more bright than tge H10 and about the same as the H10 for clarity and details.


----------



## willowbrook

leggy said:


> Now the H10 is available on Massdrop, I have few questions before I join the drop.
> Currently have Asgard2, how it is compared to H10 in terms of detail retrieval, clarity and brightness?
> My set up is laptop (mostly 320kbps Google music), iBasso D14 dac, AKG Q701 and DT990Pro 250ohm


 
 You can always roll op amps ^^


----------



## leggy

fritobugger said:


> Based on reviews of the Asgard2 I would expect it to be a little more bright than tge H10 and about the same as the H10 for clarity and details.



Thank you.
So basically there is little or no gain moving to H10. I like bright sound signature so the Asgard2 could work for me better.
Any other areas where the two differ in terms of sound?


----------



## leggy

willowbrook said:


> You can always roll op amps ^^



As much as it sounds intriguing I doubt I have the skill and the willingness to do that.


----------



## willowbrook

leggy said:


> As much as it sounds intriguing I doubt I have the skill and the willingness to do that.


 
 All you have to do is unscrew 4 screws, take the top off and then just put the new op amps in the same spot as stock op amps. Personally, being able to tune something to your liking and being able to improve it vs. stock is a big advantage. Even the stock op amps sound great, so you could always spend a little more for improvement without having to buy a whole new amp. Maybe when you decide to get planar cans, H10 will be a great candidate ^^


----------



## leggy

willowbrook said:


> All you have to do is unscrew 4 screws, take the top off and then just put the new op amps in the same spot as stock op amps. Personally, being able to tune something to your liking and being able to improve it vs. stock is a big advantage. Even the stock op amps sound great, so you could always spend a little more for improvement without having to buy a whole new amp. Maybe when you decide to get planar cans, H10 will be a great candidate ^^



Is there soldering involved or just pull old-push new and turn on?


----------



## willowbrook

leggy said:


> Is there soldering involved or just pull old-push new and turn on?


 

 No soldering unless you decide to solder the op amp yourself like the LME49720HA. You can pay just a little more for pre-soldered, no biggie.


----------



## mandrake50

leggy said:


> Is there soldering involved or just pull old-push new and turn on?


 

 Check back in the thread . A couple of people have posted very good tutorials with step by step instructions and pictures.
 It is quite easy. Pull the old part out and put the new one in the same socket. There are chip removal tools that make taking them out a bit easier, but a set of needle nose pliers is fine. Line up the pins with the holes in the socket and gently seat the new chip. Done.


----------



## leggy

Thank you Willow and Man


----------



## jackharm

Seems like there are some new people interested in opamp rolling; don't fret it isn't a hard thing to do!
  
Here's a guide I wrote awhile back.


----------



## leggy

Thank you Jack.

By the way, does H10 work as balanced amp? I found some are saying it has balanced input but unbalanced output so does that mean it won't work as balanced amp?


----------



## Kozic

leggy said:


> Thank you Jack.
> 
> By the way, does H10 work as balanced amp? I found some are saying it has balanced input but unbalanced output so does that mean it won't work as balanced amp?


If you have a balanced DAC you can feed it with that or RCAs but it's a 1\4,6.3mm out.


----------



## canthearyou

leggy said:


> Thank you Jack.
> 
> By the way, does H10 work as balanced amp? I found some are saying it has balanced input but unbalanced output so does that mean it won't work as balanced amp?




It does not operate as a balanced amp.


----------



## leggy

Thank you.


----------



## olek

leggy said:


> Now the H10 is available on Massdrop, I have few questions before I join the drop.
> Currently have Asgard2, how it is compared to H10 in terms of detail retrieval, clarity and brightness?
> My set up is laptop (mostly 320kbps Google music), iBasso D14 dac, AKG Q701 and DT990Pro 250ohm


 
 In my humble opinion H10 is interesting because of its strong micro-dynamics, and AKG Q701, while very neutral, are not exactly detail oriented, and will not allow one to see what H10 is all about.
 Also, Q701 are very particular about their amping, and for some strange reason I found that I liked them more out of my vintage pre-amps than H10. Not that they were bad out of H10, but I found that they had much better bass extension from pre-amps. Can't say much about DT990, but DT880 out of H10 was OK. Probably H10's tame treble will work well with DT990's unless you have to have it bright.


----------



## leggy

olek said:


> In my humble opinion H10 is interesting because of its strong micro-dynamics, and AKG Q701, while very neutral, are not exactly detail oriented, and will not allow one to see what H10 is all about.
> Also, Q701 are very particular about their amping, and for some strange reason I found that I liked them more out of my vintage pre-amps than H10. Not that they were bad out of H10, but I found that they had much better bass extension from pre-amps. Can't say much about DT990, but DT880 out of H10 was OK. Probably H10's tame treble will work well with DT990's unless you have to have it bright.



Thanks Olek.
I have no intention to tame the highs of the DT990.
I think I am going to pass the H10 for the time being and invest my money in a balanced amp from Massdrop.
The Asgard2 should suffice with my current cans sound wise.


----------



## audiojun

Just joined the massdrop. So is this H10 amp one of the best value to performance amps? I see all the other $300 range amps don't even compare when I look inside. This amp is duo mono and I see a lot of caps.


----------



## tvnosaint

leggy said:


> Would the new batch from Massdrop supposed to come with the Burdon V5 pre installed?



No , the bursons full boat is about$200 . Enjoy the stock for a while. You may not feel the need to upgrade. In the meantime, burson will be tightening up the v5s or some other opamp will be the new deal. Stock aren't bad at all. V5 is a pretty serious upgrade for a $300 amp. Worth it though.


----------



## leggy

tvnosaint said:


> No , the bursons full boat is about$200 . Enjoy the stock for a while. You may not feel the need to upgrade. In the meantime, burson will be tightening up the v5s or some other opamp will be the new deal. Stock aren't bad at all. V5 is a pretty serious upgrade for a $300 amp. Worth it though.



I was thinking to hold off on purchasing the H10 and invest in Mjolnir2


----------



## tvnosaint

So ur going balanced?


----------



## leggy

tvnosaint said:


> So ur going balanced?



I would like to have the option to run SE and balanced and I am planning to have a balanced setup within the next 3-6 months.
I am looking for SoCal's CanJam to find out which of the headphones I am liking and if it does balanced or not.
I am eyeing the Mjolnir2 for the time being and the next step of upgrading would be either the Bimby or the Gumby. All these are just plans. My ears may not be able to tell a worthy upgrade and justify such expense in which case I will maintain my current setup and may only add couple $3-400 cans.

I am very interested in H10 but many are saying it doesn't have the same impact on dynamic cans the way it does on planars. I only dynamic cans at the moment and the Adgard2 is doing a fine job.
Maybe in the coming days I get so excited and join the drop, I can't disqualify that


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

Ugh...this massdrop deal is making things complicated. Essentially I can afford a good headphone amp with my next check. (Trying to keep it under $300) I have an AD1000x (w/Audeze pads) running through a NuPrime uDAC. The nuprime is a really good usb dac for the price but the headphone amp part is nothing special. The sound is rather thin and cold compared to running my headphones out of my vintage receiver (particularly with "loudness" button on, lol). But is really too big for a tabletop system next to the couch. I was looking at a tube amp like the Gemtune APPJ PA1502A to warm up the sound and with good tubes will run around $280+ which is what the Gustard H10 is now going for. I'm just worried about the Gustard being too clinical, but it's technically a far superior amp.


----------



## wwmhf

leggy said:


> Now the H10 is available on Massdrop, I have few questions before I join the drop.
> Currently have Asgard2, how it is compared to H10 in terms of detail retrieval, clarity and brightness?
> My set up is laptop (mostly 320kbps Google music), iBasso D14 dac, AKG Q701 and DT990Pro 250ohm


 
  
 Never listened to Asgard2. However, H10 is a fun solid state amp very hard to be better in around $500.


----------



## leggy

By the way, how would the Burson V5 change the sound signature of the H10?


----------



## willowbrook

leggy said:


> By the way, how would the Burson V5 change the sound signature of the H10?



The single V5s while not overly brighter generally adds clarity to it. Not too much difference, but enough to prefer V5s compared stock. I don't know about duals, but stock duals are decent.


----------



## olek

azraeldarkangel said:


> The sound is rather thin and cold compared to running my headphones out of my vintage receiver (particularly with "loudness" button on, lol).


 
  
 If you like sound of vintage receiver, I think you may like H10. Vintage receivers are known for suppressing highs (to hide tape hiss that was curse of that time), and that is a trait that H10 mimics to some extent. Now, it will never sound like the 'loudness button' is on, but it does have a bit warm sound, soft and intricate.


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

olek said:


> If you like sound of vintage receiver, I think you may like H10. Vintage receivers are known for suppressing highs (to hide tape hiss that was curse of that time), and that is a trait that H10 mimics to some extent. Now, it will never sound like the 'loudness button' is on, but it does have a bit warm sound, soft and intricate.


 

 Yeah, the more reviews I read, I believe it's a good idea to take advantage of this deal. Was listening to the NuPrime through my vintage receiver earlier and comparing it to just the NuPrime driving my phones. I had the loudness button on, which I would compare to switching a subwoofer on or off between the two but could be a bit too much on some songs. I'll get the H10 and upgrade with full boat v5 opamps. Then I'll have to try some Hifiman he400i the next time they go on sale.


----------



## canthearyou

azraeldarkangel said:


> Yeah, the more reviews I read, I believe it's a good idea to take advantage of this deal. Was listening to the NuPrime through my vintage receiver earlier and comparing it to just the NuPrime driving my phones. I had the loudness button on, which I would compare to switching a subwoofer on or off between the two but could be a bit too much on some songs. I'll get the H10 and upgrade with full boat v5 opamps. Then I'll have to try some Hifiman he400i the next time they go on sale.



It's a great pairing!


----------



## MLegend

Well, I guess I should have just expected this to happen but I was too optimistic. The popping has started to show it's loud and nasty self. It's only in the left channel so i'm assuming it's just the left single V5. Haven't even installed the duals yet. Guess i'm gonna have to put the stock singles back in. Guess it's time to compare the two.


----------



## tvnosaint

leggy said:


> By the way, how would the Burson V5 change the sound signature of the H10?



Search the thread a bit back around December. Better soundstage, detail ,clarity layering, grip and realism. From what I can remember of the stock opamps. Which sound great too. All improvements are minor but noticeable and worthy.


----------



## Villy

A question to those that either purchased or consider purchasing V5 opamps:
  
 Has anyone also considered Sparko's Labs opamps?
  
 They appear to be regarded very high in both sound and built quality - there various A-B comparisons out there with opamps from Bursons, Dexas and/or Sonic Imagery Labs among others, where Sparko's seemingly is being preferred or getting most of the compliments anyhow.


----------



## leggy

leggy said:


> I would like to have the option to run SE and balanced and I am planning to have a balanced setup within the next 3-6 months.
> I am looking for SoCal's CanJam to find out which of the headphones I am liking and if it does balanced or not.
> I am eyeing the Mjolnir2 for the time being and the next step of upgrading would be either the Bimby or the Gumby. All these are just plans. My ears may not be able to tell a worthy upgrade and justify such expense in which case I will maintain my current setup and may only add couple $3-400 cans.
> 
> ...




So I decided to return my Asgard2 and will drop it off today and will order the H10.
I A/Bed my A2 with my current amp (iBasso D14 dac/amp) with my Q701 and DT990 and couldn't tell any difference other than very slight larger sound stage and openness with the A2 and those don't justify the $315 I spent on A2 from Amazon.
If I don't like the H10 I will sell it, if I do then I will enjoy it until my next upgrade to balanced setup.


----------



## wwmhf

leggy said:


> So I decided to return my Asgard2 and will drop it off today and will order the H10.
> I A/Bed my A2 with my current amp (iBasso D14 dac/amp) with my Q701 and DT990 and couldn't tell any difference other than very slight larger sound stage and openness with the A2 and those don't justify the $315 I spent on A2 from Amazon.
> If I don't like the H10 I will sell it, if I do then I will enjoy it until my next upgrade to balanced setup.


 
  
 It looks like a good plan.


----------



## willowbrook

leggy said:


> So I decided to return my Asgard2 and will drop it off today and will order the H10.
> I A/Bed my A2 with my current amp (iBasso D14 dac/amp) with my Q701 and DT990 and couldn't tell any difference other than very slight larger sound stage and openness with the A2 and those don't justify the $315 I spent on A2 from Amazon.
> If I don't like the H10 I will sell it, if I do then I will enjoy it until my next upgrade to balanced setup.



Please do let us know the difference. Curious on dynamic drivers.


----------



## leggy

I will but it will take a while because of the drop


----------



## LepakVT

Hm I think I'm going to join in on this current drop, and order the Burson V5 full boat once the new QC process has been confirmed.
  
 Now to decide if I want to complete the stack with the X12 before that drop ends soon!


----------



## leggy

lepakvt said:


> Hm I think I'm going to join in on this current drop, and order the Burson V5 full boat once the new QC process has been confirmed.
> 
> Now to decide if I want to complete the stack with the X12 before that drop ends soon!




How about Schiit's Bifrost multibit dac instead of x12? I don't have any but interested to know the difference specially when equipped with H10


----------



## sunneebear

leggy said:


> How about Schiit's Bifrost multibit dac instead of x12? I don't have any but interested to know the difference specially when equipped with H10


 
 I don't know about the sound of either units but they are about the same price but you get a whole lot more with the X12.  The X12 is also balanced so it basically has two of everything inside.  That is like getting two Bifrost for the price of one.


----------



## tvnosaint

I like the h10 better than the lyr with my q701 and gmp 240 as well as focals. Could be the nm24 makes the difference. I actually really enjoy the amp sect on that with high impedance hps. Bass is a little lighter there but so clean. H10 does a great job at the same +6 setting I use for my planars


----------



## sunneebear

leggy said:


> How about Schiit's Bifrost multibit dac instead of x12? I don't have any but interested to know the difference specially when equipped with H10


 
  
 I just realized you said Bifrost Multibit which is $600 not $400.  
  
 Anyway this is what you get.

  
 VS.
  X12


----------



## Aradea

Hi guys,

Has anyone here ever compared the H10 with Project Ember or Polaris?

Thanks


----------



## willowbrook

aradea said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Has anyone here ever compared the H10 with Project Ember or Polaris?
> 
> Thanks


 
 I'm sure there are some that have polaris or ember and H10, but I've never seen comparisons. Maybe at polaris or ember thread?


----------



## tommo21

aradea said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Has anyone here ever compared the H10 with Project Ember or Polaris?
> 
> Thanks


 
 I have both. They complement each other very good. I feel that there's a time for Solid State and there's a time for Tubes. It all depends on your other Equipment. If I wanted something in between I'd choose the Polaris actually. But that's just based on what I've read others say about it.


----------



## Orejo

Heard lots of good things about the V5 Burson Opamps. Are there any Opamps that are considered to be "better" than the V5s? What Opams would you generally recommend?

I ordered a Schiit Bimby and H10 (from Ebay) today.


----------



## willowbrook

orejo said:


> Heard lots of good things about the V5 Burson Opamps. Are there any Opamps that are considered to be "better" than the V5s? What Opams would you generally recommend?
> 
> I ordered a Schiit Bimby and H10 (from Ebay) today.


 
 Someone mentioned sparko's lab op amps which are more expensive than H10.


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

willowbrook said:


> Someone mentioned sparko's lab op amps which are more expensive than H10.


 

 Quick google search and found:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/burson_supreme_e.html
  
 Might be some other Sparko vs Burson somewhere.


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

Just found this too:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/burson-audio-supreme-op-amps-4th-gen-ht-omega-claro-halo-project-22536/
  


> I've used Burson, Dexa and Sparkos discrete Opamps and they all have different "house sounds". I've found Burson to have the weightier, more dense sound, Dexa to have the greatest clarity and Sparkos (my current favorite) to be essentially the best of both. Nearly as much clarity as Dexa but with more tonal body.
> 
> I can see folks with Solid State Systems liking the Bursons while folks with tube based systems liking the Dexas and Sparkos.
> 
> In either case, I've found that well made Discrete Opamps a step up from IC Op amps and worth the effort. In fact, one of the major reasons I purchased my DAC (Eastern Electric DAC Supreme) is the ability to easily swap out Op amps. I like the ability to further tailor the DAC sound to my taste.


 
 Also: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1212/eastern_electric_minimax_dac_plus.htm
 Where they compare more op amps.
  
 Just another Burson op amps in Gustard review: http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=403361


----------



## jaywillin

willowbrook said:


> Someone mentioned sparko's lab op amps which are more expensive than H10.


 
 hadn't heard of sparko's labs, i found   http://sparkoslabs.com/product/discrete-op-amp-ss3601/
 these are the singles at $40 apiece , a pair would be $10 buck more than the burson singles , correct ?


----------



## Aradea

tommo21 said:


> I have both. They complement each other very good. I feel that there's a time for Solid State and there's a time for Tubes. It all depends on your other Equipment. If I wanted something in between I'd choose the Polaris actually. But that's just based on what I've read others say about it.



Wow you've got the H10, the Ember and the Polaris?! Nice..
Do you by any chance own a Hifiman headphone?


----------



## canthearyou

jaywillin said:


> hadn't heard of sparko's labs, i found   http://sparkoslabs.com/product/discrete-op-amp-ss3601/
> these are the singles at $40 apiece , a pair would be $10 buck more than the burson singles , correct ?





Hmmmmm....interesting!


----------



## zilch0md

jaywillin said:


> hadn't heard of sparko's labs, i found   http://sparkoslabs.com/product/discrete-op-amp-ss3601/
> these are the singles at $40 apiece , a pair would be $10 buck more than the burson singles , correct ?


 
  
 http://sparkoslabs.com/shop/
  
 http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5/


----------



## leggy

sunneebear said:


> I just realized you said Bifrost Multibit which is $600 not $400.
> 
> Anyway this is what you get.
> 
> ...




The X12 does look nicer than Bimby internally but I really care about the sound quality differences between these too.
If you or anyone else have listened to both then I would like to hear your opinion.

I currently have iBasso D14 dac/amp with Sabre32 ES9018K2M and XMOS usb controller and I fear the X12 will be very close to the sound signature of the D14 although different implementation produce different sound but not sure time what extent it will be different.
By the way, I mostly listen to 320kbps mp3 Google music


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

The Matrix M-Stage HPA-3B is really tempting too, just not at as good a price atm. I like that it can be used with balanced or regular headphones. The conclusion from this guy: http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage-hpa-3b-class-a-full-balance-headphone-amp/reviews/13705
 is that the Gustard is slightly better single ended and the Matrix is better in balanced mode.


----------



## leggy

Yes it is.
Would like to find out how would the H10 work for me. If my ears can't tell a difference compared to my current amp and Asgard2 then I can stop trying.


----------



## olek

leggy said:


> By the way, I mostly listen to 320kbps mp3 Google music


 
  
 I am not sure if hunting for better (as in - more detailed) DAC will bring you happiness if you listen mostly to lossy music.
  
 I personally find that for lossless and intricate music I like m9xx's DAC, but for lossy 320kbps mp3 radio, I favor DAC on Denon DA-300USB (its built in amp is to be avoided).
 Not that I can hear lossy artifacts easily (not at all), but lossy music tends to cause more listening fatigue for me, and denon's DAC takes that fatigue out of music, at a cost of some detail. I like that quality a lot for marathon background radio listening. Obviously, not perfect choice for critical listening, by far (it does poorly for example on very good recordings of tenor sax).
  
 YMMV


----------



## leggy

Makes sense. I am about to find out in few weeks. At that time I will try Tidal Hi-Fi as well to rest my case.


----------



## Venator2033

azraeldarkangel said:


> The Matrix M-Stage HPA-3B is really tempting too, just not at as good a price atm. I like that it can be used with balanced or regular headphones. The conclusion from this guy: http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage-hpa-3b-class-a-full-balance-headphone-amp/reviews/13705
> is that the Gustard is slightly better single ended and the Matrix is better in balanced mode.


 
 I actually have both the H10 and M-Stage HPA-3B, I havn't done any compairing yet as I'm still waiting for my replacement v5 dual from burson for the H10 mean while I've been burning in the pair of v4 duals from Burson in the M-stage.


----------



## Villy

> I actually have both the H10 and M-Stage HPA-3B, I havn't done any compairing yet as I'm still waiting for my replacement v5 dual from burson for the H10 mean while I've been burning in the pair of v4 duals from Burson in the M-stage.


 
 Hmmm, it won't be a fair comparison whether thru the single output or thru the balanced on the HPA-3B - thru the latter I think H10 won't have a chance to match the balanced output stage and details, and thru the former H10 will certainly outdo HPA-3B.....I think....but wait, there is already a comparison between the two, check *this* review


----------



## Venator2033

Okay thanks for posting that link.


----------



## canthearyou

villy said:


> Hmmm, it won't be a fair comparison whether thru the single output or thru the balanced on the HPA-3B - thru the latter I think H10 won't have a chance to match the balanced output stage and details, and thru the former H10 will certainly outdo HPA-3B.....I think....but wait, there is already a comparison between the two, check *this* review




Looks like I'll be trying my 400i balanced from the m-stage in the near future. And maybe some Sparkoslabs.com op-amps.


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

Anyone compare the Gustard to Burson's own amps like the Soloist SL?
http://www.amazon.com/Burson-Audio-Soloist-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00BI3LYAS


----------



## willowbrook

azraeldarkangel said:


> Anyone compare the Gustard to Burson's own amps like the Soloist SL?
> http://www.amazon.com/Burson-Audio-Soloist-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00BI3LYAS



Soloist used to be the thing a few years back with their all discrete design. I heard that their amp is very transparent and I have experience with another all discrete amp and I can vouch that it is close to neutral and transparent. H10 is much different, at least with stock opamps.


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

willowbrook said:


> Soloist used to be the thing a few years back with their all discrete design. I heard that their amp is very transparent and I have experience with another all discrete amp and I can vouch that it is close to neutral and transparent. H10 is much different, at least with stock opamps.


 

 What do you mean "much different"?


----------



## willowbrook

azraeldarkangel said:


> What do you mean "much different"?



Sound signature is noticeably warmer and op amps change the sound according to their characteristic.


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

willowbrook said:


> Sound signature is noticeably warmer and op amps change the sound according to their characteristic.


 

 I see, that would mesh with the impressions I've read. I knew about different op amps changing the sound. Warmer is fine with me as listening enjoyment is more important than extreme neutrality/transparency.


----------



## willowbrook

azraeldarkangel said:


> I see, that would mesh with the impressions I've read. I knew about different op amps changing the sound. Warmer is fine with me as listening enjoyment is more important than extreme neutrality/transparency.



I guess it depends on what headphones you're hooking up. I like the ability to tune to your liking on the H10 vs buying a new amp just to match another pair of headphones.


----------



## LepakVT

Based on the Massdrop discussion history, it looks like the H10 gets a drop somewhat regularly. Does this seem accurate to other folks who have been following the H10 longer than me (only a few days...)?
  
 I did end up ordering a Bifrost Multibit, and I might see how I enjoy it with my 2.0 setup before I commit to getting another headphone amp.


----------



## willowbrook

lepakvt said:


> Based on the Massdrop discussion history, it looks like the H10 gets a drop somewhat regularly. Does this seem accurate to other folks who have been following the H10 longer than me (only a few days...)?
> 
> I did end up ordering a Bifrost Multibit, and I might see how I enjoy it with my 2.0 setup before I commit to getting another headphone amp.



At least once in 2 months. Last drop was not too far away.


----------



## leggy

I joined the drop and so excited. If the sound didn't work for me then I can sell it and get something else


----------



## leggy

Would H10 benefit from upgraded AC-power cable? If yes, how much and would this do it or you have other recommendations under $100

Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable - 1.5 Meter 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00V75CYL0/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_Uzs0wbPMY0FAX


----------



## sunneebear

leggy said:


> Would H10 benefit from upgraded AC-power cable? If yes, how much and would this do it or you have other recommendations under $100
> 
> Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable - 1.5 Meter
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00V75CYL0/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_Uzs0wbPMY0FAX



Kind of pricy and I don't know if there will be any sonic attributes. I know that you will benefit by using a good hopital grade or heavy equipment grade because the stock cable is crap. Many people had DOA issues that turned out to be the cheap cable. I cut mines open and the brass contacts were paper thin. The weight of the cable would deform them and you loose contact.


----------



## willowbrook

leggy said:


> Would H10 benefit from upgraded AC-power cable? If yes, how much and would this do it or you have other recommendations under $100
> 
> Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable - 1.5 Meter
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00V75CYL0/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_Uzs0wbPMY0FAX


 
 $60 for a power cable...I'd recommend buying Burson SS V5 singles instead.


----------



## leggy

If I still need a power cable then I have to buy it whether I buy the Bursons or not however, I was just asking if an upgraded power cable is needed or not, if yes and there is one with good reputation then I will buy it as long as it's less than $100


----------



## canthearyou

willowbrook said:


> $60 for a power cable...I'd recommend buying Burson SS V5 singles instead.



This. Best and most noticeable improvement you'll have. IMO


----------



## canthearyou

leggy said:


> If I still need a power cable then I have to buy it whether I buy the Bursons or not however, I was just asking if an upgraded power cable is needed or not, if yes and there is one with good reputation then I will buy it as long as it's less than $100




Get a power cable for about $5 on Amazon. Only you can decide if an "audio grade" power cable is needed. Not gonna lie, I have the same cable in my cart. Lol


----------



## leggy

sunneebear said:


> Kind of pricy and I don't know if there will be any sonic attributes. I know that you will benefit by using a good hopital grade or heavy equipment grade because the stock cable is crap. Many people had DOA issues that turned out to be the cheap cable. I cut mines open and the brass contacts were paper thin. The weight of the cable would deform them and you loose contact.




I don't know if it will affect the sonic either. That cable was recommended to be purchased with zdac as several tried it and swear by it.


----------



## Villy

canthearyou, would you elaborate further on your experience with quality cables (power, interconnect, or usb), and what it was that form your opinion?


----------



## willowbrook

So one of my V5 singles developed a crackling noise at idle, did a few tests to make sure it was the op amps. Could not hear with headphones, but it was noticeable with IEMs. If anyone isn't aware of what it sounds like, it sounds like when you move your finger around in your ear.


----------



## canthearyou

villy said:


> canthearyou, would you elaborate further on your experience with quality cables (power, interconnect, or usb), and what it was that form your opinion?




To be honest I haven't really done any testing. I just assume it can only make things better, not worse.


----------



## Orejo

lepakvt said:


> Based on the Massdrop discussion history, it looks like the H10 gets a drop somewhat regularly. Does this seem accurate to other folks who have been following the H10 longer than me (only a few days...)?
> 
> I did end up ordering a Bifrost Multibit, and I might see how I enjoy it with my 2.0 setup before I commit to getting another headphone amp.


 

 Yes, as you already mentioned, the H10 gets a drop regularly. I think there is also a Subreddit on Reddit, where it shows when the H10 was dropped.
  
  


willowbrook said:


> So one of my V5 singles developed a crackling noise at idle, did a few tests to make sure it was the op amps. Could not hear with headphones, but it was noticeable with IEMs. If anyone isn't aware of what it sounds like, it sounds like when you move your finger around in your ear.


 

 Hey, I don't know if you already know that, but the current V5 Burson Opamps are *NOT *comatible with the H10. I got to know that issue, when I wrote Dennis at Burson Audio an Email to see if they provide discount when buying the full V5 Kit. Their Opamp is designed for +/-15V, whereas the H10 has a power supply of +/- 16.5V. Here is the official Post on Head-Fi:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/4125#post_12249933


----------



## canthearyou

orejo said:


> Yes, as you already mentioned, the H10 gets a drop regularly. I think there is also a Subreddit on Reddit, where it shows when the H10 was dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They are also now shipping op-amps to meet higher voltage standards.


----------



## jaywillin

canthearyou said:


> They are also now shipping op-amps to meet higher voltage standards.


 
 that's what i've been waiting to hear !


----------



## Kramertc

willowbrook said:


> So one of my V5 singles developed a crackling noise at idle, did a few tests to make sure it was the op amps. Could not hear with headphones, but it was noticeable with IEMs. If anyone isn't aware of what it sounds like, it sounds like when you move your finger around in your ear.


 

 Are you sure the cracking noise is coming from the amp and it's not the drivers of the IEMs flexing when you push it with your ear?


----------



## Venator2033

orejo said:


> Hey, I don't know if you already know that, but the current V5 Burson Opamps are *NOT *comatible with the H10. I got to know that issue, when I wrote Dennis at Burson Audio an Email to see if they provide discount when buying the full V5 Kit. Their Opamp is designed for +/-15V, whereas the H10 has a power supply of +/- 16.5V.


 
 Just adding more info here but Burson sent this email to me regarding their v4's
  
 "In high voltage, the V4 not only works properly but sound better.  It's through hole components has higher tolerance than SMD components.
  
 Best regards,
  
 Alex"
 This was in answer to a question about the sound difference between the v5's and v4's, which I'm using the v4 duals in the M-stage which sends 18v's to the op-amps also the v4's cost 99$ plus shipping totals out to about 115$ for a pair of Duals while the v5's are 145$ shipped. And yes I know Burson is increasing voltage to 17.5v's for the v5's I'm still waiting for my replacement v5 dual from them also.


----------



## Venator2033

Also has anyone here tried their recommended Capacitor mod for the Burson op-amps?


----------



## zilch0md

venator2033 said:


> Also has anyone here tried their recommended Capacitor mod for the Burson op-amps?




Yes, but not in the H10. I don't know of anyone who has...


----------



## lenroot77

I'm looking for a couple of the 823 dual opamps if anyone here is looking to get rid of a few send me a pm. Thanks


----------



## Venator2033

zilch0md said:


> Yes, but not in the H10. I don't know of anyone who has...


 
 I'm mostly interested in the change in sound regardless of amp, just want to know if it's worth the investment to buy every thing I'll need for it.


----------



## willowbrook

kramertc said:


> Are you sure the cracking noise is coming from the amp and it's not the drivers of the IEMs flexing when you push it with your ear?



Switched op amps to stock many times before coming to conclusion. Even switched the v5s around and crackling noise went from left to right, right to left. It's funny because I can't hear it with my 560, but it is pretty loud with my iem at lowest gain.


----------



## willowbrook

orejo said:


> Yes, as you already mentioned, the H10 gets a drop regularly. I think there is also a Subreddit on Reddit, where it shows when the H10 was dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They have a higher QC standard now, we'll have to see how that holds up.


----------



## zilch0md

venator2033 said:


> I'm mostly interested in the change in sound regardless of amp, just want to know if it's worth the investment to buy every thing I'll need for it.




Pelopidas has written some detailed comparisons of the V5 with and without a cap, for various tracks:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/432749/the-opamp-thread/5055#post_12185207 

I'm not nearly as skilled at describing what I can hear, taking the caps in and out, but I'm confident that efficient headphones aren't as impressed by the caps if the amp itself is sufficiently potent for good bass control and dynamics. With the HD800 on my portable amp, the caps do give more speed and control, as the amp only has one 22,000uF cap on the Li-Ion battery pack.

Pelopidas says the choice of caps can be heard - he ended up with the Elna SILMIC II 35V 10uF, after a lot of testing (and soldering), so I just followed his lead and feel no compulsion to try any other caps. 

Note that my caps are soldered for Duals, not for Singles.


(top view, for Dual)



(bottom view, for Dual)


 
(top view, for Dual)



(top view, for Single)



(Pelopidas' photo. Note that he has his caps sticking out on the front side of the V5, where my photos show my having put the caps out the same side as the notch. I had to do this because a battery pack was in the way on the front side of the V5's.)

Mike


----------



## wwmhf

venator2033 said:


> Also has anyone here tried their recommended Capacitor mod for the Burson op-amps?


 
  
 I wanted to do this, but totally forgot it.


----------



## wwmhf

Thanks a lot for the details. I will give it a try soon.


----------



## sunneebear

willowbrook said:


> They have a higher QC standard now, we'll have to see how that holds up.




Your post may mislead readers into thinking Burson has had low QC standards. I have used their op-amps since V1. They are very strick in component QC and matching. It just so happens that the H10 can sometimes exceed the voltage of the V5's operating specs. Burson is willing to change their components for those of a higher voltage just to keep the users of one model amplifier happy goes to show what kind of company they are.

They do not have poor QC. They are changing a product just to work in one amplifier which is out of spec.


----------



## willowbrook

sunneebear said:


> Your post may mislead readers into thinking Burson has had low QC standards. I have used their op-amps since V1. They are very strick in component QC and matching. It just so happens that the H10 can sometimes exceed the voltage of the V5's operating specs. Burson is willing to change their components for those of a higher voltage just to keep the users of one model amplifier happy goes to show what kind of company they are.
> 
> They do not have poor QC. They are changing a product just to work in one amplifier which is out of spec.


 
 I never said they have poor QC, I was specifically mentioning about their new standard on V5s QC in regard to voltage which is a necessary move and a step towards excellence. Being better doesn't mean that it was bad before and it really depends on how you interpret it, but IMO that is overthinking it.


----------



## Venator2033

Thanks for the link zilch0md great info.


----------



## zilch0md

OK, we're all on the same page regarding Burson's plan to increase the V5 voltage specs from 15V to 17V -  a product enhancement.
  


manishex said:


> Just got an E-mail from burson:
> 
> 
> "The H10 operates in 16V to 16.5V whereas our opamp has a stated upper tolerance limit of 15V.
> ...


 
  
 H10 owners have been supplying excessive voltage to the V5 all along - _previously unaware_ that the H10 supplies 16 to 16.5V instead of the 15V maximum specified by Burson in the V5 data sheet.
  
*But...  As much as I hate to say this, because I am so very pleased with both their product and their customer service, Burson still has quality control issues that have nothing to do with supply voltages.*
  
 In short, summarizing my earlier posts, I purchased a pair of V5 Duals that functioned perfectly, but which had pins that were not square to the case - one was severely twisted (about a 7-degree rotation) and the other only moderately (about a 1-degree rotation).  
  
  


Spoiler: Previously posted photo of twisted V5 Duals






  
  
  
 Given my intent to have them protruding through holes cut in the top of my portable amp, Burson agreed to send me another pair of V5 Duals, free of charge - I didn't even have to return the original twisted pair. Customer service doesn't get any better than that!
  
*Not only was the new pair un-twisted, they both functioned perfectly - for a few hours... * 
  
 One of the new Duals quickly developed a a low-volume squealing sound in the treble region, like tuning a VFO. I opted to just replace it with the least twisted V5 Dual of the original pair. That will have to do. I didn't even bother to notify Burson, but their rep later "stepped in it" by asking me how things were going.  I explained what was going on, telling him that I've only paid for one good pair of V5s and that, basically, I've got one good pair of V5s, so there's no need for replacement at this time.  Really, Burson owes me nothing.  I'm content.
  
 The fact remains... with my having experienced a 50% failure rate - two good V5s out of four that were shipped - I feel compelled to say that Burson has a quality control problem - but I am absolutely convinced that they will take care of their customers. The Lifetime Warranty is readily honored.
  
 I liken the experience as only _mildly_ analogous to that suffered/enjoyed by Audeze LCD-3 owners, 58% of whom have had one or more driver failures, but* the warranty and the sound quality make it all worthwhile. *
  
 On that note, *I continue to be absolutely thrilled with the performance of the V5 Duals* in my battery-powered iBasso PB2 portable amp, which, when used with dummy buffers to drive my HD800, is every bit as transparent and resolving as my $1200 Metrum Aurix - an amp that is basically the headphone amp equivalent of the Nelson Pass First Watt M2 and F6 amps, which use transformers for inductive gain (a minimalist design where no tubes, transistors or op-amps are used for gain - with a very competent power supply).  
  
 I've tested many combinations of source and DAC (most of which are, admittedly, affordable "low-fi" products) with my V5-equipped iBasso PB2 portable amp, comparing it to the Metrum Aurix and to another spectacularly transparent and resolving portable amp - the Meier Audio Corda Stepdance - which was my benchmark for transparency and neutrality before getting the Aurix. * The Burson V5-equipped iBasso PB2 prevails in every comparison - and keep in mind that the PB2 portable amp is little more than a life-support system for op-amps. Other than an analog volume control, there's almost nothing else in the signal path.  With the PB2, you are listening to the op-amps and little else, driven by the intrinsically clean, low-noise power of a battery pack.*
  
 Vs. the Metrum Aurix, the V5-equipped PB2 offers improved bass extension and dynamics - the sound is not as laid back as with the Aurix, while offering the same dead silent noise floor, sound stage, resolution and overall transparency as the Aurix.  In a word:  Incredible.  It also has more raw power - even when using dummy buffers in the output gain stage of the PB2 - where buffer op-amps would increase the current available to the headphones.  The Aurix has a toggle switch for 0 dB gain (acting as a pre-amp to drive the headphones only with the power of the DAC) or 10 dB gain (using its transformers for inductive gain), but even with the 10 dB setting, I have to turn the Aurix volume control much further clockwise to match the SPL delivered to the headphones by a pair of Burson V5 Duals.  This is actually just a moot point, as there is plenty of headroom left with the Aurix driving the HD800, even with the 0dB gain setting, but it's worth noting that the V5s are potent.
  
 Vs. the Meier Audio Corda Stepdance, the V5-equipped PB2 again readily matches the transparency and resolution of the OPA1611-equipped competitor, but here, the finicky HD800, which is known for taking offense to amps that use a lot of negative feedback (i.e. Oppo HA-1 and many others), renders a brittle edginess in the HD800 treble that is completely absent with the Burson V5 Duals.  The HD800 can be very fatiguing with amps that sound utterly fantastic with orthos, but where some people solve this problem by rushing to inexpensive, low-resolving tube amps that smear the details, the solid state, yet zero-feedback design of the Metrum Aurix -and- the Burson V5 Dual-equipped PB2 allow the HD800's greatest features (transparency, neutrality, and resolution) to survive, unencumbered. 
  
 Just in case anyone thinks there's something magical about the PB2 portable amp itself, aside from having really clean power, and a push-pull design - where two op-amps operate 180-degrees out of phase with each other on each channel - I can drop any other op-amp I own into the input voltage gain stage and just say "good bye" to one or more of the precious traits brought to the table by the V5 Duals.  The LME49990 scores well on every count except for dynamics, air and soundstage.  It was my favorite op-amp until I heard the V5 Dual, but now it's a distant 2nd place.  I paid $150 for a pair of JRC Muses 02, from Mouser.com - to avoid the possibility of getting counterfeits on ebay.  The Muses 02 is not only more expensive than a Burson V5 Dual, it's a joke in terms of neutrality and transparency.  It's heavily colored and sometimes makes vocalists sound as if they are singing through cupped hands.  Uggh!  The OPA1612 duals were my first pick before I discovered the LME49990, but when I drop them into the iBasso PB2, I get a Meier Stepdance on steroids - more of the brittle edginess with the HD800, but a more powerful and perfectly satisfactory version of the Stepdance for my Audeze LCD-2 and Oppo PM-1 (but with a noisy volume control and a much lower build quality than the Stepdance.)
  
 Sadly, I know through PM correspondence I've had with a couple of Head-Fi members, and through posts made in the Opamp thread, that some folks have systems which simply do not allow the Burson V5s to shine.  They order the V5s, plug them in and conclude, "What a waste of money."  Keeping in mind that I am all about low-fi or, at best, mid-fi solutions - as evidenced by all the stuff seen in my profile - I find myself telling these people to hang onto the Burson V5s while ferreting out the weak link in their audio chain. For some, it's the headphone. If you're using a V-Moda M-100, forget about it. For others, it's the DAC or a noisy power supply in their amp or whatever.  Just because the Burson V5 is an upgrade priced within reach of a lot of people, doesn't mean a lot of people are going to bounce off the walls the way I do when I listen to the V5 in my dinky, but uber-clean, all battery-powered system.
  


Spoiler: My this-can't-be-happening Burson V5 system




 iPod Touch 6 > Oppo HA-2 (ES9018K2M DAC) Line Out > iBasso PB2 with Burson V5 Duals in input voltage gain stage > balanced out to HD800 via Toxic Cables Silver Poison
  
 This picture taken before I added caps to the V5 Duals and replaced the LME49990 with dummy buffers - opting for less power but greater transparency - allowing the V5s to sing!


  
 Mike


----------



## jaywillin

the funkedelic !


----------



## zilch0md

^ That's one of my favorites, despite the explicit intro and poor recording. This track makes a better demo:

http://youtu.be/DwybvhISmls


----------



## jaywillin

zilch0md said:


> ^ That's one of my favorites, despite the explicit intro and poor recording. This track makes a better demo:
> 
> http://youtu.be/DwybvhISmls


 
 wow, nice, 
 hadn't heard of them before, thanks !
  
 (maggot brain still rocks!) lol


----------



## willowbrook

Oh man, I never noticed how much improvement single V5s gave until I only have stock that's working. Treble sounds artificial and the whole spectrum sounds lean with 560. EQ to the rescue!


----------



## Huggelz

Got mine in the mail just now, feels like a pretty good upgrade to my 4-5 year old Fiio E9. Using it atm with my k702 annie edition, can't wait to get my hands on the th-x00 in May sometime!


----------



## Solarium

How does the Polaris compare to the Gustard H10, as it's currently on MD for $290 around the same price range as the Polaris. I plan to pair it with m9XX and the HD800 and T1. How will that combination work out for those who have such a setup?


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

My budget was kind of tight for the H10, even on massdrop + op amp upgrade (lots of bills lately). So I ordered a Little Dot 1+ with upgraded Valvo 6CQ6 tubes (I'll later replace with mil-spec Mullard CV4014) and ordered a Sparko Labs dual op amp.


----------



## heliosphann

So I can't get one of my XLR cables to release from my H10. I'm pretty sure the release tab isn't functioning properly .Any suggestions on getting it unstuck?


----------



## tvnosaint

I've been noticing less awe in my sound the last few days. Enough for an exploration. The lyr< pulse is suddenly more engaging. Than the h10 w v5s full boat < nm24 with 75 reflektors.


 
a 

dual v5 tried to come through the top of the h10


----------



## willowbrook

tvnosaint said:


> I've been noticing less awe in my sound the last few days. Enough for an exploration. The lyr< pulse is suddenly more engaging. Than the h10 w v5s full boat < nm24 with 75 reflektors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks scary


----------



## Burson Audio

Hi Guys,
  
 Just a quick update for all of the H-10 customers. The new batch of V5 is almost ready for send out. We are only a couple of days away before shipping. 
  
 Thank you all for been patiant with us and supporting Burson. 
  

  
 Dennis


----------



## willowbrook

burson audio said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just a quick update for all of the H-10 customers. The new batch of V5 is almost ready for send out. We are only a couple of days away before shipping.
> 
> ...


 
 That's really great to hear. Once you've heard these, you can never go back...


----------



## Orejo

burson audio said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just a quick update for all of the H-10 customers. The new batch of V5 is almost ready for send out. We are only a couple of days away before shipping.
> 
> ...



Hi Dennis,

That's excellent news. I've been waiting for V5 since I ordered my H10. 

What cables do I need to buy for my Schiit Bifrost Multibit + Gustard H10 + Hifiman HE-560?


----------



## tvnosaint

Putting my originals back until I hear from burson. Which are the duals? Opa 134 b? Found it. I was wrong. The Ne go in the back. I gotta label these things


----------



## canthearyou

Just performed my bi-weekly check under the hood of the H10. Not looking very promising. 

I do not currently hear any degradation in sound. But I think it's only a matter of time. I do have a HE-500 on the way to me and a Head-Fi meet coming up in a few weeks. Hopefully get this taken care of ASAP. 

I sent an email to Burson. Hope to hear back from them soon. 

*that is a dual pictured. Has it been mostly the duals or singles failing?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

canthearyou said:


> Just performed my bi-weekly check under the hood of the H10. Not looking very promising.
> 
> I do not currently hear any degradation in sound. But I think it's only a matter of time. I do have a HE-500 on the way to me and a Head-Fi meet coming up in a few weeks. Hopefully get this taken care of ASAP.
> 
> ...




Are these part of the new batch compatible with the H10?


----------



## canthearyou

liu junyuan said:


> Are these part of the new batch compatible with the H10?




Negative.


----------



## zilch0md

.


----------



## Burson Audio

Hi Orejo, 
  
 I am not sure what cable you want to use for that setup you have there mate. Choosing the right cable is a personal thing it really depends on your preferences.  I personally like the AQ line of cables  But some say it is too "brassy" sounding  
  
 Dennis


----------



## MLegend

Jesus, I wasn't expecting it to cost so much just to send 4 little op amps to Australia. Here's hoping the new batch won't have any issues. $49.25 is.....fine......once, if it happens again I don't think i'll be sending them back. Was it that expensive for anyone else?


----------



## canthearyou

mlegend said:


> Jesus, I wasn't expecting it to cost so much just to send 4 little op amps to Australia. Here's hoping the new batch won't have any issues. $49.25 is.....fine......once, if it happens again I don't think i'll be sending them back. Was it that expensive for anyone else?




WAIT!!! You had to pay to return them for warranty?


----------



## willowbrook

.


----------



## MLegend

They told me to send them so I can get the new 17+/- volt op amps. I asked them if I needed to register them before sending but they told me
 "We have recorded your details and will send you the new opamps when they are ready. : )".


----------



## willowbrook

mlegend said:


> Jesus, I wasn't expecting it to cost so much just to send 4 little op amps to Australia. Here's hoping the new batch won't have any issues. $49.25 is.....fine......once, if it happens again I don't think i'll be sending them back. Was it that expensive for anyone else?


 
 That is a lot for shipping something that can fit in an envelope...


----------



## MLegend

I did not have that option available to me.


----------



## tvnosaint

I've replaced the v5s (both sets) with the stock . I did all kinds of other things. Replaced HGs in nm24 with e188cc Dario's from surenes and deoxit for all connex and tubes. Sounding much better. I think the singles were getting dull sounding. Waiting to hear from burson.


----------



## sikninjaskillz

Does anyone else have a ground loop problem with their H10? All my other equipment is silent until I plug the power in on the h10 and then it transfers noise through EVERYTHING!!!


----------



## slex

mlegend said:


> Jesus, I wasn't expecting it to cost so much just to send 4 little op amps to Australia. Here's hoping the new batch won't have any issues. $49.25 is.....fine......once, if it happens again I don't think i'll be sending them back. Was it that expensive for anyone else?




I was ask sent back the faulty V5 with the cheapest means possible, even seafreight.


----------



## Yeskey

My shipping cost for a pair of V5 singles back was $13.50 from California, took 3 days for it to reach them.


----------



## jackharm

Was finally able to give my recently acquired HE-500's(Vegan+regrill) some decent head time and I have got to say that it + my H10 (full V5) is a really lovely combo (to my inexperienced ears at least 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 . . .)
  
 Can say that the V5's with this combo (and with my HE-400's but I do enjoy the HE-500's more) really do leave me quite sated in regards to my audio needs.
  
 I do wonder though if I am just lucky with my V5's or if my H10 is just treating them kindly as I do have a good 250-300+ hours of run time with the V5's and have run into no problems.*knocks on wood*


----------



## MLegend

jackharm said:


> Was finally able to give my recently acquired HE-500's(Vegan+regrill) some decent head time and I have got to say that it + my H10 (full V5) is a really lovely combo (to my inexperienced ears at least
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Sounds like a great pairing! Seems that all of Hifimans offerings pair extremely well with the H10. Guessing it's due to the laid back and warm nature of the H10. Well I hope they don't fail on you man cause no one should have to deal with faulty equipment after paying $200.


----------



## musedesign

mmlogic said:


> - Do you think H10 is good value? How much did you pay for yours?
> I want to say too good, but I'm afraid it'll make the next generation Gustard machine not so affordable like current ones. I paid 290 USD for H10.
> 
> - Where did you purchase your H10?
> ...


 
  
 Dear mmlogic,
   Thank you for your very helpful comments !
  
 Has anyone else bought their H10 from Taobao ?  Had a quick look and it looks like the H10 is $257 plus shipping on Taobao. link: https://item.taobao.com/item.html?id=39116330458
  
 Thanks!


----------



## fritobugger

musedesign said:


> Dear mmlogic,
> Thank you for your very helpful comments !
> 
> Has anyone else bought their H10 from Taobao ?  Had a quick look and it looks like the H10 is $257 plus shipping on Taobao. link: https://item.taobao.com/item.html?id=39116330458
> ...




I got mine on Taobao while I lived in China. No problem other than a crappy power cord.


----------



## bongieto

anybody interested, I have my H10 posted in the classifieds. Its barely used good as new. The main advantage is you don't have to wait for burn in. Excellent amp. If not only for this disease of upgraditis, I won't sell it.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/800604/mint-gustard-h10-slightly-used-in-original-box


----------



## musedesign

fritobugger said:


> I got mine on Taobao while I lived in China. No problem other than a crappy power cord.


 
  
 Thank you fritobugger,
   Do you remember which seller ?  Everything okay with buying on Taobao ?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## fritobugger

musedesign said:


> Thank you fritobugger,
> Do you remember which seller ?  Everything okay with buying on Taobao ?
> 
> Thanks!




I don't recall the seller. I might be able to look it up.


----------



## musedesign

fritobugger said:


> I don't recall the seller. I might be able to look it up.


 
  
 Thank you fritobugger !
  
 I was looking into building an amp but, if I can get the H10 from TaoBao for less than $300, it would be difficult to match for that price DIY.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

Quote:


jackharm said:


> Was finally able to give my recently acquired HE-500's(Vegan+regrill) some decent head time and I have got to say that it + my H10 (full V5) is a really lovely combo (to my inexperienced ears at least
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Do you find the difference between the H10 + HE500 with the full V5's is worth it compared to just the H10 without the V5's (ofc completely subjective as to what's worth it but in your honest opinion)?
  
 I'm quite satisfied with my combo without but interested maybe in the future in case I'm looking for a little more from the sound without the V5's.


----------



## canthearyou

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Do you find the difference between the H10 + HE500 with the full V5's is worth it compared to just the H10 without the V5's (ofc completely subjective as to what's worth it but in your honest opinion)?
> ...



The v5 singles make a vast and very apparent increase in audio quality.


----------



## willowbrook

canthearyou said:


> The v5 singles make a vast and very apparent increase in audio quality.



I can vouch for this too. Singles are a must.


----------



## bongieto

anybody can confirm if the popping issue with V5 on H10 has been resolved by Burson?


----------



## mandrake50

willowbrook said:


> I can vouch for this too. Singles are a must.


 

 I don't think any of them are a "must". Having gone through at least 6 sets of alternate opamps.. both single and double. Also having tried a full set of the Burson V4 and V5 opamps, I can say that some are better to my ears than others. I can also relate my experience when first hearing the H10 stock. It was quite wonderful.
 My point is that many people not afflicted by the Head-Fi way of never quite being happy would likely be quite satisfied with the H10 stock. Opamps change nuances only! 
 I have found that the differences are there when comparing opamps, but unlike some people I do not think that they are so pronounced that they would either make the amp into something great for the person that does not like it, nor turn it into something bad if they do like it.
 For a person who has just bought an H10, I really suggest that you listen to it. If you buy into break in on a solid state amp, put the requisite hours on it. If you really like it, as I did, call it good and enjoy. If you do not like it, don't waste time and money with rolling opamps. They will not likely change your mind.
  
 So what is worth it? I got the full set of V4s when they ran a special for H10 owners. Then got the whole set of V5s for $120. (IIRC) this makes it easier to swallow. At the current price for a full set, I would think long and hard about it. Still quite a bit of money to spend on a sub $300 amplifier if just buying the singles. So what do you value? How discriminating are your ears?  Your call.


----------



## mandrake50

willowbrook said:


> I can vouch for this too. Singles are a must.


 

 BTW, I like your current picture much better...


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

mandrake50 said:


> I don't think any of them are a "must". Having gone through at least 6 sets of alternate opamps.. both single and double. Also having tried a full set of the Burson V4 and V5 opamps, I can say that some are better to my ears than others. I can also relate my experience when first hearing the H10 stock. It was quite wonderful.
> My point is that many people not afflicted by the Head-Fi way of never quite being happy would likely be quite satisfied with the H10 stock. Opamps change nuances only!
> I have found that the differences are there when comparing opamps, but unlike some people I do not think that they are so pronounced that they would either make the amp into something great for the person that does not like it, nor turn it into something bad if they do like it.
> For a person who has just bought an H10, I really suggest that you listen to it. If you buy into break in on a solid state amp, put the requisite hours on it. If you really like it, as I did, call it good and enjoy. If you do not like it, don't waste time and money with rolling opamps. They will not likely change your mind.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for this. I've owned the Gustard for about 6 months now and I'm quite happy with the pairing with my HE500's. I was wondering about getting them as I was hoping to squeeze as much juice out of the amp as I possibly could as my next headphone upgrade was to be either the Audeze LCD2.2 or LCD3. I read a review somewhere showing the 2.2 to be very close to the 3 when paired with this amp as the 2.2 is there is a "blissful synergy", and seen as the H10 is basically a V200 clone it would be my endgame setup (until some point in the future maybe when I finish my studies and actually have some money in my pocket). So the idea was to add the Burson's and get the Audeze's and you know.....be content.
  
 But then again the prices for the V5's are quite steep and people have said before the opamps already in the H10 are pretty good as is......
  
 Ahhhh, decisions....


----------



## canthearyou

mandrake50 said:


> I don't think any of them are a "must". Having gone through at least 6 sets of alternate opamps.. both single and double. Also having tried a full set of the Burson V4 and V5 opamps, I can say that some are better to my ears than others. I can also relate my experience when first hearing the H10 stock. It was quite wonderful.
> My point is that many people not afflicted by the Head-Fi way of never quite being happy would likely be quite satisfied with the H10 stock. Opamps change nuances only!
> I have found that the differences are there when comparing opamps, but unlike some people I do not think that they are so pronounced that they would either make the amp into something great for the person that does not like it, nor turn it into something bad if they do like it.
> For a person who has just bought an H10, I really suggest that you listen to it. If you buy into break in on a solid state amp, put the requisite hours on it. If you really like it, as I did, call it good and enjoy. If you do not like it, don't waste time and money with rolling opamps. They will not likely change your mind.
> ...




I'll have to say no to that. It completely changed the sound signature for the better. Quieter background, improved treble, improved bass, made vocals even more realistic. 

Not saying the stock op-amps are bad, but the Bursons make a dramatic difference.


----------



## zilch0md

I'll have to say there are too many variables for readers to put their trust in any criticism or praise for something as subtle as an op-amp. They are so system-dependent, and that includes how they sound with your recordings, your DAC and your headphones, as well as our own hearing skills and tastes - even if everyone in this thread is using the same amp.
  
 Just buy the Burson V5 singles, listen to them and return them!
  
_Unless, of course, they sound great to you - in your system._
  




  
 Mike


----------



## fritobugger

musedesign said:


> Thank you fritobugger,
> Do you remember which seller ?  Everything okay with buying on Taobao ?
> 
> Thanks!




I only see one seller on Taobao so I think it was the same one.


----------



## GUTB

Is there room for other upgrades in the H10? Transformers, caps, fuses, etc?


----------



## musedesign

fritobugger said:


> I only see one seller on Taobao so I think it was the same one.


 
  
 Thank you *fritobugger,* 
   Is this the one you saw ?  Ithink the seller is Costa de audio
http://world.taobao.com/item/39116330458.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z3o.7695460.0.0.yy1nm7
  
 $259usd + shipping ?
  
 Thank you !


----------



## jackharm

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Do you find the difference between the H10 + HE500 with the full V5's is worth it compared to just the H10 without the V5's (ofc completely subjective as to what's worth it but in your honest opinion)?
> ...


 
 Would I still enjoy the HE-500 with a stock H10? Yup, I sure would.
  
 To me the V5's just refine/tailor the sound better to my liking.
  
 As I have said many a times, my favourite thing about the V5's is how fluid the sound gets. It also helped a bit more with the HE-400's sharp treble (you could still hear it, but with the V5's it didn't really irritate me; more like a "Oh there's some sibilance there" *shurgs*)
  
 Was it worth it? To me yea as with my current setup (NFB-15 -> H10(V5) - > HE500), I feel like I am quite set for awhile (at least until I finish my Bachelors
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
 If you have the spare cash, I would say to give it a try. After all I do believe Burson does have a 30 day refund policy + lifetime warranty, and fantastic customer service.
  
 Do consider to give them their recommended 100 hour burn in before passing complete judgement though.


----------



## fritobugger

musedesign said:


> Thank you *fritobugger,*
> Is this the one you saw ?  Ithink the seller is [COLOR=333333]Costa de audio[/COLOR]
> http://world.taobao.com/item/39116330458.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z3o.7695460.0.0.yy1nm7
> 
> ...




Same one except I paid RMB while living in China.


----------



## willowbrook

mandrake50 said:


> I don't think any of them are a "must". Having gone through at least 6 sets of alternate opamps.. both single and double. Also having tried a full set of the Burson V4 and V5 opamps, I can say that some are better to my ears than others. I can also relate my experience when first hearing the H10 stock. It was quite wonderful.
> My point is that many people not afflicted by the Head-Fi way of never quite being happy would likely be quite satisfied with the H10 stock. Opamps change nuances only!
> I have found that the differences are there when comparing opamps, but unlike some people I do not think that they are so pronounced that they would either make the amp into something great for the person that does not like it, nor turn it into something bad if they do like it.
> For a person who has just bought an H10, I really suggest that you listen to it. If you buy into break in on a solid state amp, put the requisite hours on it. If you really like it, as I did, call it good and enjoy. If you do not like it, don't waste time and money with rolling opamps. They will not likely change your mind.
> ...



Of course nothing is a must, but to my ears V5 singles vs stock singles have differences enough to say that stock op amps don't sound right at all. I've put in a lot of continous hours on both and since my V5s are faulty right now, stock op amps will have to do, but $70 for them are a good investment in my opinion since they have started to ship out higher voltage QCed and it has lifetime warranty. If you find them fine with stocks, no need to spend more on op amps, but V5s do smooth out sibilance for me and gains body just a little in general. Without EQ, I can't stand the 560 with stock.
For me, V5s change from meh to listenable without wanting more. I really wish I could try out the duals someday, but stock duals aren't so bad.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

jackharm said:


> Would I still enjoy the HE-500 with a stock H10? Yup, I sure would.
> 
> To me the V5's just refine/tailor the sound better to my liking.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can't really do that mate, I'm in the UK and as far as I can see from the Burson site there aren't any distributors in the UK for them. Only way for me to get my hands on them is a seller on eBay shipping them from Germany 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (and one from Australia)
 And as such have no idea if they'll be the ones which have gone through the more rigorous QC testing.
 They're on sale there for £50 for 2 singles or 1 double here:
 Singles: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-x-pair-Burson-Audio-Single-Opamps-Upgrading-for-your-system-Revision-V5-/131739541064?hash=item1eac49de48:gMAAOSw7FRWVMPa
 Double: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-x-Burson-Audio-Dual-Opamp-Upgrading-for-your-system-one-unit/381560955053?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3D7ac0b59dfa384e1fa68b0e7edd769306%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D131739541064
  
 And to be perfectly honest I don't really know the difference between a single and double opamp


----------



## musedesign

fritobugger said:


> Same one except I paid RMB while living in China.


 
 Thank you *fritobugger,*
   Think it might be worth a try at $259usd


----------



## mandrake50

canthearyou said:


> I'll have to say no to that. It completely changed the sound signature for the better. Quieter background, improved treble, improved bass, made vocals even more realistic.
> 
> Not saying the stock op-amps are bad, but the Bursons make a dramatic difference.


 

 I am using the Burson V5 full set now. I do prefer them to anything else that I have tried. Having said that, they most certainly did not completely change the sound signature. They do make some small improvements that I like for some specific headphones. This includes the 400i and 560.
 However, I feel certain that I could identify the sound signature of the H10 easily regardless of the opamp that is installed. If opamps "completely" changed the sound signature, that would not be the case.
 Again the differences are subtle and detecting them can be highly dependent on the rest of the reproduction chain. When someone asks whether they are worth it, and admit to having limited funds they probably need more than simply superlatives that are highly relative to personal taste and equipment. This is the only reason I commented at all. It surely was not to discount anyone else' thoughts.


----------



## jackharm

Is purchasing directly from Burson not an option for you? (there's a combo box and add to cart button at the bottom of the page)
  
 Also, like others have said, you could always just try out the singles first to get your feet a little wet.

 EDIT:

 The H10 has two sets of op-amps; two singles (which are located on the side) and two duals (which are near the rear connectors).
Here's a little guide I wrote if you need more thorough steps.


----------



## canthearyou

mandrake50 said:


> I am using the Burson V5 full set now. I do prefer them to anything else that I have tried. Having said that, they most certainly did not completely change the sound signature. They do make some small improvements that I like for some specific headphones. This includes the 400i and 560.
> However, I feel certain that I could identify the sound signature of the H10 easily regardless of the opamp that is installed. If opamps "completely" changed the sound signature, that would not be the case.
> Again the differences are subtle and detecting them can be highly dependent on the rest of the reproduction chain. When someone asks whether they are worth it, and admit to having limited funds they probably need more than simply superlatives that are highly relative to personal taste and equipment. This is the only reason I commented at all. It surely was not to discount anyone else' thoughts.




Maybe me saying it changed the sound signature was the incorrect term. It did "enhance" the sound for the better.


----------



## willowbrook

I got myself a pair of FLC8s recently and was looking into impedance adapters that are used with desktop amps. Is anyone familiar with IEMs impedance matching with H10?


----------



## mandrake50

willowbrook said:


> I got myself a pair of FLC8s recently and was looking into impedance adapters that are used with desktop amps. Is anyone familiar with IEMs impedance matching with H10?


 

 What is it that leads you to think that impedance matching is required? From the specs the FLC8s have an impedance value of 11 ohms. The H10, though not published, but based on the listed damping factor has an output impedance below one ohm. (for the damping factor of 400 at 50 ohms the output impedance would be ~ 0.125 ohms) This should be ok for the 11 ohms of the IEM... easily exceeding the 1 to 8 ratio rule often quoted as the minimum for good damping.
  
 What is your goal in using some kind of impedance matching device?
  
 EDIT: I do see that with multiple drivers devices, especially with BA drivers, some have manipulated the output impedance that the IEM sees to alter the sound... for better or worse These tricks do more than alter the frequency balance, it messes with the overall damping factor. Potentially doing all kinds of nastiness. Is this what you are trying to do?


----------



## tvnosaint

My V5s are out now. I'm back to stock. The change is substantial . Mainly clarity . Which enhances texture which affects layering and soundstage. The bass is not as tight , again a downgrade in texture. It just sounds a little lazy and hazy compared to the v5s. I miss them. Dennis at burson emailed me assuring me that the new batch would be ready for me this week. To me, definately worth the price of the upgrade. H10 still sounds great but not like it did with the v5s.


----------



## Orejo

I'm a bit confused right now. On Burson's website under "Data Sheet" I still see +/- 15V max voltage for the V5 Opamps. Does that mean that they have not yet sold the new batch or have they already shipped the new version?


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

jackharm said:


> Is purchasing directly from Burson not an option for you? (there's a combo box and add to cart button at the bottom of the page)
> 
> Also, like others have said, you could always just try out the singles first to get your feet a little wet.
> 
> ...


 

 Quite a nicely written guide. For some reason I just didn't consider Burson 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 saw the $ sign and just disregarded it as not shipping to UK but see on the bottom they do international post.
 Will shoot them an email see if they can quote me a deal incl taxes. Thanks!
  
 In response to edit: I can understand that bit, but what's physically different between a 1x dual and 1x single (or not even physically, but acoustically)?


----------



## willowbrook

mandrake50 said:


> What is it that leads you to think that impedance matching is required? From the specs the FLC8s have an impedance value of 11 ohms. The H10, though not published, but based on the listed damping factor has an output impedance below one ohm. (for the damping factor of 400 at 50 ohms the output impedance would be ~ 0.125 ohms) This should be ok for the 11 ohms of the IEM... easily exceeding the 1 to 8 ratio rule often quoted as the minimum for good damping.
> 
> What is your goal in using some kind of impedance matching device?
> 
> EDIT: I do see that with multiple drivers devices, especially with BA drivers, some have manipulated the output impedance that the IEM sees to alter the sound... for better or worse These tricks do more than alter the frequency balance, it messes with the overall damping factor. Potentially doing all kinds of nastiness. Is this what you are trying to do?


 
 I didn't know that..hm..I expect the FLC8s to pick up more noise floor from H10 since it is more sensitive than the dn1000 which I used previously. Haven't tried it on H10 yet, but I'm just looking into it and not a lot of information going around regarding this subject.


----------



## willowbrook

tvnosaint said:


> My V5s are out now. I'm back to stock. The change is substantial . Mainly clarity . Which enhances texture which affects layering and soundstage. The bass is not as tight , again a downgrade in texture. It just sounds a little lazy and hazy compared to the v5s. I miss them. Dennis at burson emailed me assuring me that the new batch would be ready for me this week. To me, definately worth the price of the upgrade. H10 still sounds great but not like it did with the v5s.


 
 I just got an email from Burson that the new V5s are on their way right now. I think they started shipping out.
  


orejo said:


> I'm a bit confused right now. On Burson's website under "Data Sheet" I still see +/- 15V max voltage for the V5 Opamps. Does that mean that they have not yet sold the new batch or have they already shipped the new version?


 
 You might want to contact them first, but they told me my replacement is the new batch specially for H10 customers.


----------



## mandrake50

willowbrook said:


> I didn't know that..hm..I expect the FLC8s to pick up more noise floor from H10 since it is more sensitive than the dn1000 which I used previously. Haven't tried it on H10 yet, but I'm just looking into it and not a lot of information going around regarding this subject.


 

 I would give the FLC8s a try before worrying about it. Perhaps the whole impedance matching device subject is not discussed because it has little value? I don't know, but I do know that doing it wrong will be worse than not messing with it. At least in this case... when there is no electrical problem present.


----------



## willowbrook

mandrake50 said:


> I would give the FLC8s a try before worrying about it. Perhaps the whole impedance matching device subject is not discussed because it has little value? I don't know, but I do know that doing it wrong will be worse than not messing with it. At least in this case... when there is no electrical problem present.


 
 Thanks for your comments, sure will try first before looking into it. I don't have access to H10 right now , but these do sound amazing out of my laptop and am very excited to try them with H10. Burson V5 singles replacement is expected to arrive soon just in time. I also sent my HE-560 in for replacement because the connectors were becoming bothersome, drivers were mismatched along with pads build quality problem and it looks like they will also be here soon. I love how fast international deliveries are in the same continent.


----------



## Yeskey

I just received an automated email saying that my replacement set of Burson opamps have just shipped. I'm super excited! (again)


----------



## humblesquad

Hi, let me pose a question. H10 is described as a "discrete" amplifier, but many here are talking about opamp rolling. Why does the opamp rolling affect sound quality in spite of the discrete architecture?


----------



## zilch0md

humblesquad said:


> Hi, let me pose a question. H10 is described as a "discrete" amplifier, but many here are talking about opamp rolling. Why does the opamp rolling affect sound quality in spite of the discrete architecture?


 
  
 I don't understand how the H10 could be described as having "discrete architecture" when it uses IC op-amps. Where have you seen it written that the H-10 is "a 'discrete' amplifier?"
  
 The Burson Soloist is an example of a discrete design.  I don't know what those ICs do, as seen in this photo, but there aren't any IC op-amps in the signal path:
  


Spoiler: Inside the Burson Soloist


----------



## humblesquad

zilch0md said:


> I don't understand how the H10 could be described as having "discrete architecture" when it uses IC op-amps. Where have you seen it written that the H-10 is "a 'discrete' amplifier?"


 
  
 I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding but this thread title (and most ebay seller) says "GUSTARD H10 High-current *Discrete* Class A output Stage Headphone Amplifier". Doesn't this mean H10 is a discrete amplifier? I guess I'm misunderstanding


----------



## zilch0md

humblesquad said:


> I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding but this thread title (and most ebay seller) says "GUSTARD H10 High-current *Discrete* Class A output Stage Headphone Amplifier". Doesn't this mean H10 is a discrete amplifier? I guess I'm misunderstanding


 
  
  
 Sheesh!  LOL - I've never noticed that!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well, I guess the thread's OP needs to tell us where he got that title.


----------



## zilch0md

Read the first few posts in this Gearslutz thread:
  
 https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/459520-discreet-amplifier-definition.html
  
 Quoting the 6th post:
  


> There exist both discrete and IC opamps. An opamp is just an "operational amplifier" which is just a type of amplification utility used in circuit design. Whether it is discrete or IC depends solely on how it is built, not really what it does. They both do the same basic thing, and are pretty much interchangeable.
> 
> A lot of people like discrete opamps because they reportedly sound smoother, clearer, and more musical than ICs, since you can use the best of each component to put them together. On the other hand, ICs are smaller, much cheaper, and in many cases can even have better specs than discretes.


 
  
 So, when you replace the IC op-amps that ship with the Gustard H10, with op-amps made using discrete components (i.e. Burson V5 op-amps), the H10 then becomes a "discrete" amplifier.


----------



## humblesquad

zilch0md said:


> Sheesh!  LOL - I've never noticed that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 All right, now I understand H10 is NOT a discrete amplifier.
  
 I'm a fan of 'discrete' things basically but H10 seems to be a very good thing.


----------



## zilch0md

humblesquad said:


> All right, now I understand H10 is NOT a discrete amplifier.
> 
> I'm a fan of 'discrete' things basically but H10 seems to be a very good thing.


 
  
 For sure!  I don't have any prejudice against IC op-amps. Fully discrete designs don't necessarily outperform designs using ICs.


----------



## tvnosaint

I've put the apparently Undamaged v5 singles back in . They are doing well. Not like they did in tandem with the duals but, I've more clarity and extension at both ends. There is an improvement in texture, layering and soundstage. I'm undeniably hearing more in the music than with the stock. Reaching deeper extracting more information . Seems to lack the musicality of running both sets of v5s. Maybe even of the stock but the sound quality is worth that trade off . The duals are definately missed.


----------



## desik

Hi guys,
 Anyone tried Gustard H10 with LCD-2.2F? People say it's godly with pre-fazors, not much info with the Fazor version.
  
 How you think it would it pair compared to Soloist SL?


----------



## mandrake50

humblesquad said:


> Hi, let me pose a question. H10 is described as a "discrete" amplifier, but many here are talking about opamp rolling. Why does the opamp rolling affect sound quality in spite of the discrete architecture?


 

 I think the thread title refers to the amp as having a "discrete Class A" output stage. Having not seen the schematic I am not sure, but I thought the set of 4 transistors per channel mounted on the heat sink are the discrete output devices. Opamps change the sound because they precede the output devices in the circuit. The signal passes through the op amps so they contribute their sound to the output. The single opamps are a first gain stage, sort of like a preamp. Which is why , I am sure, most people feel like they make the biggest difference in the sound of the H10.


----------



## wwmhf

mandrake50 said:


> I think the thread title refers to the amp as having a "discrete Class A" output stage. Having not seen the schematic I am not sure, but I thought the set of 4 transistors per channel mounted on the heat sink are the discrete output devices. Opamps change the sound because they precede the output devices in the circuit. The signal passes through the op amps so they contribute their sound to the output. The single opamps are a first gain stage, sort of like a preamp. Which is why , I am sure, most people feel like they make the biggest difference in the sound of the H10.


 
  
 That is my understanding too.


----------



## tvnosaint

Burson has shipped my replacement v5 duals. This is from the new batch with the higher voltage req. I'll let you guys know when the get here and how they sound. I for one miss mine sorely. They seemed to anchor the sound with more body than singles plus stock. It's a much more subtle improvement but it's in my wheelhouse.


----------



## networkn

Has anyone compared this amp to the Liquid Carbon?


----------



## Solarium

networkn said:


> Has anyone compared this amp to the Liquid Carbon?


 
 Wondering the same thing


----------



## sunneebear

I have a short post I think on page 275.


----------



## wwmhf

sunneebear said:


> I have a short post I think on page 275.


 
  
 Your observations posted there corroborate with my conjecture based on my experiences with H10 and my reading about Liquid Carbon.


----------



## Solarium

I'm looking for an amp that is relatively powerful like the H10 with a smaller footprint. Besides the Liquid carbon (which is a lot more expensive than I would rather shell out), the iFi iCAN looks interesting. Does anyone own both and can compare both, using either the HD800 or the T1?
  
 Also, any other options besides either H10 or the iFi to amp the 2 headphones? I don't anticipate ever using planars cuz of their weight so I don't need something crazy powerful.


----------



## stuartmc

solarium said:


> I'm looking for an amp that is relatively powerful like the H10 with a smaller footprint. Besides the Liquid carbon (which is a lot more expensive than I would rather shell out), the iFi iCAN looks interesting. Does anyone own both and can compare both, using either the HD800 or the T1?
> 
> Also, any other options besides either H10 or the iFi to amp the 2 headphones? I don't anticipate ever using planars cuz of their weight so I don't need something crazy powerful.




I had the ifi Ican when I first received my H10. Bone stock, the H10 was far superior with the HD600 cans I had at the time. I sold the Ican without a moment's hesitation. With HE560's that i later purchased, I have no doubt that the performance gap between these two amps would grow even larger. When you consider the modding opportunities with the H10, and particularly when you run better op-amps, there really should be no reason to even consider the Ican, unless its size and built in filter effects mean more to you than overall sound quality.


----------



## canthearyou

solarium said:


> I'm looking for an amp that is relatively powerful like the H10 with a smaller footprint. Besides the Liquid carbon (which is a lot more expensive than I would rather shell out), the iFi iCAN looks interesting. Does anyone own both and can compare both, using either the HD800 or the T1?
> 
> Also, any other options besides either H10 or the iFi to amp the 2 headphones? I don't anticipate ever using planars cuz of their weight so I don't need something crazy powerful.




Possibly the Matrix M-Stage HPA-3b.


----------



## fritobugger

canthearyou said:


> Possibly the Matrix M-Stage HPA-3b.


 
 Or the HPA-3U if you are running single end.  They have great power and fairly small footprint.


----------



## Burson Audio

Hi Guys, 
  
 Just a quick update, we are sending out the new batch of V5 for all the H-10 customer. We are process as quick as we can please bear with us for now. 
  
 On anther note. we have made a custom heatsink for the H-10 amp. This new part allows the internal heat sink inside the H-10 to have a firm contact with the top plate of the unit which allows a much better heat dissipation. At this stage we are still experimenting but the initial result is very impressive. We don't have plan to turn this into a commercal part yet but if anyone here want to obtain a sample and test it out for them self please drop me a email (via our main email: info at bursonaudio.com). 
  
  
  
  
 Happy listening 
 Dennis


----------



## Walderstorn

Actually that heatsink looks nice.
  
 Now for the hundred dollar question, does any1 know where i can the singles V5 within the EU ? Cause if it comes from outside ill have to pay the price plus anywhere from 23 to 30% -.-.
  
 Edit - @Burson Audio maybe u can help in that regard?


----------



## canthearyou

burson audio said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just a quick update, we are sending out the new batch of V5 for all the H-10 customer. We are process as quick as we can please bear with us for now.
> 
> ...




That is a good idea. How does it attach, thermal tape?


----------



## moriez

burson audio said:


> Just a quick update, we are sending out the new batch of V5 for all the H-10 customer.


 
  
 I haven't been following things. Does this apply to each and every V5 owner regardless of issue?
  


walderstorn said:


> Now for the hundred dollar question, does any1 know where i can the singles V5 within the EU ?


 
  
 On *eBay* and in *France* for example.


----------



## willowbrook

moriez said:


> I haven't been following things. Does this apply to each and every V5 owner regardless of issue?
> 
> 
> On *eBay* and in *France* for example.



You have to contact them if it has issues. They will send out the new batch ASAP.


----------



## zilch0md

solarium said:


> I'm looking for an amp that is relatively powerful like the H10 with a smaller footprint. Besides the Liquid carbon (which is a lot more expensive than I would rather shell out), the iFi iCAN looks interesting. Does anyone own both and can compare both, using either the HD800 or the T1?
> 
> Also, any other options besides either H10 or the iFi to amp the 2 headphones? I don't anticipate ever using planars cuz of their weight so I don't need something crazy powerful.


 
  
 Or the Nuforce HA-200 - it's really great with the HD800 - a true single-ended, low-feedback, Class A amp - and affordable.


----------



## monoxyde1234

my full boat V5s was shipped on the 8th, should be arriving any day now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 this would cure my upgraditis for at least a couple of months
  
 on another note, I wish audio companies could find a way make this upgrading thing more "modular"
 like a couple hundred bucks worth of upgrade every few months and next thing you know, you have summit-fi level of equipment
 makes it an easier pill to swallow for that chronic upgraditis compared to shelling out $$$ in one go.
 but then i guess you could buy and sell equipment. anyways, just a thought.


----------



## Yeskey

I'm rather curious about how additional heat dissipation might affect the sound quality of the H10, so I opted to demo the heat sink. Now it's the waiting game until the full boat and the heat sink show up.


----------



## Socratease

burson audio said:


> On anther note. we have made a custom heatsink for the H-10 amp. This new part allows the internal heat sink inside the H-10 to have a firm contact with the top plate of the unit which allows a much better heat dissipation. At this stage we are still experimenting but the initial result is very impressive. We don't have plan to turn this into a commercal part yet but if anyone here want to obtain a sample and test it out for them self please drop me a email (via our main email: info at bursonaudio.com).


 
 I had the same idea about the heat sink when I read somebody's post where he was thinking of drilling holes in his case for ventilation.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But does the H-10 have a heat problem in its stock configuration?  Mine gets a little warm, but not enough that I was concerned.


----------



## fritobugger

socratease said:


> I had the same idea about the heat sink when I read somebody's post where he was thinking of drilling holes in his case for ventilation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Mine only gets the slightest bit warm in stock configuration.


----------



## willowbrook

socratease said:


> I had the same idea about the heat sink when I read somebody's post where he was thinking of drilling holes in his case for ventilation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Ran mine with HE-560 for hours in room temp at about 71 Fahrenheit or 22 Celsius and chassis doesn't get hot. It's just warm. Opened the chassis and the heat sink was hot, but other components were just warm including the bursons V5s. Stock op amps were pretty hot.


----------



## canthearyou

socratease said:


> I had the same idea about the heat sink when I read somebody's post where he was thinking of drilling holes in his case for ventilation.  :eek:
> 
> But does the H-10 have a heat problem in its stock configuration?  Mine gets a little warm, but not enough that I was concerned.







fritobugger said:


> Mine only gets the slightest bit warm in stock configuration.




After a few hours of on time, remove the cover and touch that black heatsink. It holds some heat.


----------



## Orejo

In which ways will the V5 Opamps improve the H10's sound quality?


----------



## Venator2033

Received not just my one dual v5 replacement from Burson but a full boat of replacements they've earned a loyal customer here,so for everyone else out there still waiting for replacements you should be getting them soon.


----------



## fperra

Mine shipped two days ago. How long does shipping take?


----------



## Venator2033

Mine took 10 days from time of receiving the shipping confirmation.


----------



## jackharm

Depends on where you are located and how long it takes for it to get processed through your local customs.
  
 But I would say it should take around 5 - 10 business days give or take a day or two?


----------



## jackharm

socratease said:


> I had the same idea about the heat sink when I read somebody's post where he was thinking of drilling holes in his case for ventilation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That was I, and I did end up drilling some vent holes on top of where the op-amps are located.
 So far still running strong with the OG V5's. Heat hasn't been an issue for me, but I do tend to like to keep my electronics and room nice and cool/ventilated.
  
 Honestly I just drilled holes in it since I saw no real harm in doing so, plus I like to tinker with my things(for better or for worse).


----------



## Socratease

Just got my DAC-X12 from Massdrop.  Driving differential to the H10 and into the HE-400i:  My, that's a very nice sounding DAC.  Really detailed and resolving, but never harsh or shrill, and that's before being burned-in.  I'll let Volumio give it a workout, and hopefully the Bursons will be here soon for the finishing touch.


----------



## Socratease

jackharm said:


> That was I, and I did end up drilling some vent holes on top of where the op-amps are located.
> So far still running strong with the OG V5's. Heat hasn't been an issue for me, but I do tend to like to keep my electronics and room nice and cool/ventilated.
> 
> Honestly I just drilled holes in it since I saw no real harm in doing so, plus I like to tinker with my things(for better or for worse).


 
 OK, I hope it helps.  But the heatsink is just a block of aluminum in the middle of the board, not much surface area or air circulation to let convection do its job.  Thermally connecting it to the outer shell should give it all the surface area it could need.  I'll see if I still have some thermal pads so I can try the same idea.


----------



## canthearyou

socratease said:


> Just got my DAC-X12 from Massdrop.  Driving differential to the H10 and into the HE-400i:  My, that's a very nice sounding DAC.  Really detailed and resolving, but never harsh or shrill, and that's before being burned-in.  I'll let Volumio give it a workout, and hopefully the Bursons will be here soon for the finishing touch.




I had the exact same setup. It was very nice. But I will say the HE-500 running off the Gustard is pretty awesome!


----------



## Socratease

What would you say was the main difference between the HE-500 and the -400i?


----------



## YUHaveNoNames

Thankyou so much to everyone in the thread and the detailed information you give about this amp!

I bought one about a month ago and am just astonished by how much difference it brings to planars, my mad do pros are now heavenly!


----------



## canthearyou

socratease said:


> What would you say was the main difference between the HE-500 and the -400i?




Fuller sound, more bass, cleaner treble, larger soundstage. It is better in every category. IMO

The only con is its weight. It took a little bit to get used to. Plus, I bought a strap from lohb and it made a world of difference in comfort.


----------



## humzebra

Would I notice an improvement with this amp at around 2.5w vs my ifi dsd micro at 1.5w @ ~70 ohm (LCD-2F)? Particularly looking for bass impact. Anything more powerful I should look into? I hear orthos like a lot of current, would this give more than ifi?


----------



## raoultrifan

mricy said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> New member here. I just joined the SS Gustard a month ago.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi guys,
  
 First of all I don't own right now a H10, but looks like it's a very nice and powerful head-amp, very well built with powerful discrete output stage like BURSON amplifiers.
  
 I'm very sorry to see that some V5's are blowing away inside H10 amplifiers but I believe this might happen sometimes when you power +/-15V (30V) op-amps from +/-16.5V (33V) rails, especially if inside H10 air temp is about 60C. 
  
 I own a Matrix M-Stage 3U with 2 x BURSON SS V5-dual op-amps inside, but I've changed power regulators from +/-18V (36V) to +/-15V (30V) so I can upgrade it with V5-duals, more details about it here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/770610/introducing-the-matrix-m-stage-hpa-3u-and-hpa-3b-review-to-follow/90#post_12390513; a simple mod of replacing 7818/7918 regulators with 7815/7915.
  
 It would be great if a head-fier having access to a Gustard H10 amplifier and with some electronics knowledge can publish here a simple mod for decreasing power rails to about +/-15V so every H10 owner could easily and safer upgrade internal op-amps with SS V5 from Burson. I don't have a clear view on H10's PCB or schematic, but looks like it's using discrete power supply made with TIP122 and TIP127 transistors and I believe this could be easily adjusted either from the blue resistor trimmers either by replacing a couple of resistors around the power regulators (please don't try to start modding without a little bit of background in electronics!). I understand that Burson has a new batch of SS V5 op-amps that can "tolerate" up to +/-17V, but a simple mod of lowering H10 rails to +/-15V would still be a good thing, especially that many head-fiers would like to have the ability of swapping more and more op-amps and we all know that are still op-amps out there that have max. recommended voltage rail specs of only +/-15V (30V).
  
 Regards,
 Raul.


----------



## hpamdr

With H10, this is the other way around !
 New Burson v5 batch are tested against 17V so no needs to modify regulator.
 Burson is also experimenting heater extension tg cool it a bit more using the case as dissipator.
 So big thanks to b.a. for wonderful customer support and lifetime warranty !


----------



## willowbrook

venator2033 said:


> Mine took 10 days from time of receiving the shipping confirmation.


 
 Also took me about 10 days, great support from Burson. Can't wait to plug these babies in.


----------



## wadi

Any news from Gustard balanced amplifier?


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

wadi said:


> Any news from Gustard balanced amplifier?


 

 Also interested in this. Quite a few pages ago there was news of a H20 but has been silent ever since.


----------



## Socratease

My Bursons arrived today.  Also made a try at making a case heat transfer block.


----------



## canthearyou

socratease said:


> My Bursons arrived today.  Also made a try at making a case heat transfer block.



Nice!


----------



## wwmhf

A very good idea. Then, we need some ideas to dissipate heat from those op amps.


----------



## hpamdr

wwmhf said:


> A very good idea. Then, we need some ideas to dissipate heat from those op amps.


 

 Remove/Change the houssing with an aluminum or coper one.. They should work up to 85'C ...


----------



## Orejo

Guys, I did it. I've just purchased the new batch Burson V5 Opamps... Not sure, if it's already Christmas, but hey.
  
 I'll post my impressions as soon as I've got them and testet properly.


----------



## kottav

Hey guys, I'm looking at the massdrop for the Gustard X12. Is it a good deal? What are some other options around $450 if the drop doesn't go through?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Socratease

kottav said:


> Hey guys, I'm looking at the massdrop for the Gustard X12. Is it a good deal? What are some other options around $450 if the drop doesn't go through?


 
  
 Time is short on the drop, but I suspect they'll be back again, so I wouldn't commit myself unless I was reasonably convinced.  I don't have much to compare it to, it's as musical and clean as my m9xx but with noticeably more detail.  Also handles more input and output formats if that's a factor for you.  It's the best DAC I've got so far, other reviews compared it favorably to the Gungnir.  Shenzenaudio's price is $500, don't know what they ask for shipping.


----------



## raoultrifan

hpamdr said:


> Remove/Change the houssing with an aluminum or coper one.. They should work up to 85'C ...


 
 Strongly not recommended
 In case you really want to do this, then:
 - you'll loose Burson's life-time warranty
 - it will be very difficult to remove existing red plastic housing because of internal yellow molded thermal compound
 - short circuit might occur if external aluminum/copper housing will get installed
  
 For those really needing an external copper housing then have a look at BURSON SS website because there's already a copper housing made especially for the V5 SS opmaps, but it needs to be properly grounded (no need to remove existing red plastic housing). It's been designed to minimize external EMI/RFI noise, so it's basically a copper shield to minimize noise injection.


----------



## Burson Audio

Hi Guys, 
  
 Sorry I could not replied earlier, due to our weekend break. If you have any questions and request please send via our main email. PM system is not working for me right now since we right now. 
  
 Here is a bigger photo of the heatsink as requested: 
  

  

  
 Yes, the heatsink part is hold by two double sided thermal tape. Thanks again for all your support. 
  
 Dennis


----------



## wwmhf

raoultrifan said:


> Strongly not recommended
> In case you really want to do this, then:
> - you'll loose Burson's life-time warranty
> - it will be very difficult to remove existing red plastic housing because of internal yellow molded thermal compound
> ...


 
  
  
 I agree unless someone really wanted to venture.


----------



## wwmhf

burson audio said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Sorry I could not replied earlier, due to our weekend break. If you have any questions and request please send via our main email. PM system is not working for me right now since we right now.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This can surely help to dissipate heat generated from those transistors in the amplification section. Hope this can provide a friendlier environment for Burson's op amps.


----------



## wwmhf

I will be grateful if you all can provide some data for the size of the heat sink to be added.


----------



## Socratease

Mine ended up 0.344 inches thick, but the thermal pad material hasn't arrived yet, so that's not final.  I'm also not sure how consistent the H10 dimensions are from unit to unit.
  
 Update: As I thought, this was too tight a fit with the thermal pad.  Probably need to reduce that dimension by about 50% of the pad's thickness to allow it to compress, eg: about 0.324 inches thick with a single 1mm pad.


----------



## Yeskey

Just received my package and inside, two sets of doubles and one set of singles! Counting the two sets of singles I received last time on accident (one of them poofed into smoke and was promptly returned) That means I have two full boats. Thank you very much Burson! Now to burn these in until the heat sink arrives.


----------



## tvnosaint

Still haven't seen my replacement v5s. But fedex did get busted for stealing electronic items here today. Wouldn't that suck. Straight in the trash. I dunno how many guys they got but I know it's been going on there for years. Buds used to work there told me never order a computer fedex.


----------



## MLegend

Still waiting for mine as well.


----------



## olek

Here is a treat for hi-def junkies here:
  
 http://primeseat.net/en/
  
 Long story short, you can listen to selected dsd64/dsd128 recordings there for free as long as your DAC supports it.
 You will have to install their free app, they have got version for either Windows or Mac (no linux support, boo).
  
 I especially like their currently available "The 10th anniversary live concert of the Blue Coast Records St. Valentine Day's" Part2 （Alex de Grassi）. Amazing acoustic guitar work.
  
 Now, here is interesting (and relevant) part.
  
 I can hear a difference in dsd128 - it is SO MUCH better than either dsd64 or 196/24 - but only when I listen on my KEF LS50 loudspeakers - ambiance, depth and detail are simply unreal, it is not a subtle difference at all. dsd128 is simply jaw dropping.
 And dsd64 to me sounds not any better than 196/24 (and if I understand technical details, it probably should not).
  
 But alas, all my headphone gear, including H10, is unable to reproduce that difference of dsd128. Even BH Crack, while usually a bit better on the ambiance part, is blind to those differences.
 I mean, dsd64 sounds same as dsd128 and 196/24. And  dsd128 is a bit better than 96/24, but difference is rather small.
 And neither T70 nor 400i cuts it.
  
 And here comes my plea...
 Could somebody with a full boat give this a try? Wondering if upgrade improves resolution of H10 enough to hear that difference.


----------



## wadi

olek said:


> Here is a treat for hi-def junkies here:
> 
> http://primeseat.net/en/
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is like comparing apples to oranges. Also headphones and loudspeakers you are using for this comparison are from different leagues.


----------



## zilch0md

raoultrifan said:


> Strongly not recommended
> In case you really want to do this, then:
> - you'll loose Burson's life-time warranty
> - it will be very difficult to remove existing red plastic housing because of internal yellow molded thermal compound
> ...


 
  
 The photo at the Burson page looks as if it's nothing more than sefl-adhesive copper foil - which is fine, but I don't think it's in anyway more special than that.  My fear is that it might keep some heat inside the V5 while it keeps some EMI/RFI out.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Fly-Young-Copper-Conductive-Adhesive/dp/B013GEWN8I


----------



## olek

wadi said:


> It is like comparing apples to oranges. Also headphones and loudspeakers you are using for this comparison are from different leagues.


 
  
 I like both apples and oranges 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And so far I thought that my speakers and headphones were firmly in same mid-fi category (yes, speakers are 3x the price, but rule of thumb is that headphones are about 3x cheaper than comparable SQ speakers).
 Current discovery makes me rethink that.
  
 Good to know that info. I almost bought X12 to upgrade my source, but looks like so far it is far from being the bottleneck in my headphones setup.
 Which is why I am wondering if improving my HP amplification by converting H10 to full boat is likely to affect the outcome...


----------



## rolandpsp

Is this H10 comparable to b22/dynahi ?


----------



## willowbrook

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone post an extensive review on SS V5 duals vs LME49720HA? Price difference is almost 4x and I heard some having both, but not enough time put in yet for a fair comparison.


----------



## raoultrifan

zilch0md said:


> The photo at the Burson page looks as if it's nothing more than sefl-adhesive copper foil - which is fine, but I don't think it's in anyway more special than that.  My fear is that it might keep some heat inside the V5 while it keeps some EMI/RFI out.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Fly-Young-Copper-Conductive-Adhesive/dp/B013GEWN8I


 

 This is exactly what it is for: to keep EMI/RFI out of the op-amp.
  
 Regarding internal temperature of op-amps, most likely this copper sheet will not decrease much the op-amp's temperature, but definitely will not make it worse, because it's copper foil and it dissipates temperature much better than V5's red plastic case...it's actually like a very small heat-sink. If you measure SS V5's temperature around it's plastic case you'll see that on bottom temp is higher then on top, so this copper sheet will definitely improve internal temp a little bit...just, like I said before, this copper sheet should be mostly used to shield the op-amps from external noises like power source for example or if used in not shielded equipment cases (plastic, wood etc.).


----------



## GnuB

The H10 is available on Massdrop again for 6 more days but it hasn't reached the lowest drop price yet.  Has interest waned in the H10 or have there just been enough prior drops that demand has been met?


----------



## lafeuill

I'm on the fence...


----------



## canthearyou

Just a heads-up but there's a very good chance my full Burson H10 will be up for sale after this weekend. I am attending the S.E. Michigan Head-fi meet and will probably find my next amp.


----------



## tvnosaint

Burson sent me one dual opamp. If swear I was told to put the duals in the post for return. Plural. Glad I didn't . I was waiting for the pkg to see what I was returning. I thought they may replace all 4. Nope, just one. . I hope this works out


----------



## vadergr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-Current-Class-A-Discrete-Output-Headphone-Amp-/252160495389
  
 Anyone bought from this seller ?
  
 i am between Lake people G109-A and Gustard.
 Gustard has better design (on papers) but the g109 is almost as capable in amping ,with great build quality and warranty support.
  
 Never seen an official site for the Gustard  
  
 Any bad quality issues for the Gustard that i should now about ?


----------



## fperra

vadergr said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-Current-Class-A-Discrete-Output-Headphone-Amp-/252160495389
> 
> Anyone bought from this seller ?
> 
> ...


 
 Get the Gustard, you won't be disapointed. It is on sale at Massdrop. 
 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10


----------



## sunneebear

fperra said:


> Get the Gustard, you won't be disapointed. It is on sale at Massdrop.
> https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10



Plus the great warraty service from Massdrop.


----------



## tvnosaint

The h10 is designed after the violectric v200 from what I understand. That's the next model up from the 109 from lake people. If all that is true and the Gustard is cheaper...no brainer.


----------



## Kozic

The H10 is not a direct clone of the V200 but they sure used it as inspiration. Highly recommend the H10 with planars very time it comes up on Mass drop I have to stop myself from buying a 2nd one to replace a Burson soloist SL for my desk set up.


----------



## canthearyou

vadergr said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-H10-High-Current-Class-A-Discrete-Output-Headphone-Amp-/252160495389
> 
> Anyone bought from this seller ?
> 
> ...




Be sure to pop the cover and make sure it's set to proper voltage.


----------



## canthearyou

I've come to the conclusion that I like the stock duals paired with the Burson singles. The dual Bursons seem to make things too smooth and also shrink the soundstage.

I'm still preferring the K7XX paired with the H10 and the HE-500 with the APPJ PA1502a.


----------



## willowbrook

canthearyou said:


> I've come to the conclusion that I like the stock duals paired with the Burson singles. The dual Bursons seem to make things too smooth and also shrink the soundstage.
> 
> I'm still preferring the K7XX paired with the H10 and the HE-500 with the APPJ PA1502a.




Have you tried lme49720ha? I heard it makes the sound brighter. Maybe it will be a good match with the v5 singles.


----------



## tvnosaint

I put the replacement dual v5 in. Immediately noticed an improved soundstage and weighted presentation. It's tight though. Also a little channel static and loss of sound for a minute twice. In one channel. Man I'm sick of taking this thing apart .im gonna give the h10 the deoxit/ fader treatment to see what's up. I'm wondering if having two opamps with different voltage tolerances may cause a problem .


----------



## canthearyou

willowbrook said:


> Have you tried lme49720ha? I heard it makes the sound brighter. Maybe it will be a good match with the v5 singles.




I have not. I'm not sure I'd like a brighter tone.


----------



## raoultrifan

tvnosaint said:


> I'm wondering if having two opamps with different voltage tolerances may cause a problem .


 
 Are you using right now 2 x SS V5-dual op-amps: an older one (abs. max. voltage is +/-15V) and a new one (abs. max. voltage +/-17V)?


----------



## willowbrook

canthearyou said:


> I have not. I'm not sure I'd like a brighter tone.


 
 Well, you said that the duals V5 made things too smooth. Haven't tried the 49720ha, but it's supposedly superior to NE5532 in terms of hi-fi I guess.


----------



## zilch0md

tvnosaint said:


> I put the replacement dual v5 in. Immediately noticed an improved soundstage and weighted presentation. It's tight though. Also a little channel static and loss of sound for a minute twice. In one channel. Man I'm sick of taking this thing apart .im gonna give the h10 the deoxit/ fader treatment to see what's up. I'm wondering if having two opamps with different voltage tolerances may cause a problem .


 
  
 If they do have different tolerances, I would think the only problem would be in one that has insufficient tolerance.  The other would remain unaffected.  
  
 What is "the deoxit / fader treatment"?
  
*Update: *
  
*I figured it out - I had never heard of this CAIG product -* http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.293/.f
             
*Do you use this on the volume control of the H10 or on the op-amp pins or ???*
  
 I put a tiny drop of Deoxit Gold into each hole in my DIP8 sockets and for a few days thereafter, my Burson V5 duals were rising out of the sockets - just on the spring tension applied to each pin.  LOL  
  
*This is what I've been using:* http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1609/.f?sc=2&category=292
  
 They never got high enough out of their sockets to interrupt the signal, but every time I sat down to listen to music I had to push them back down again - a distance of about 2mm. The lubricating action of the Deoxit Gold finally wore off, so they're staying put now, but for about a week, I was regretting having used the Deoxit.  
  
 I can't say it made any improvement in sound, but I'd still recommend it as "preventative maintenance."


----------



## tvnosaint

raoultrifan said:


> Are you using right now 2 x SS V5-dual op-amps: an older one (abs. max. voltage is +/-15V) and a new one (abs. max. voltage +/-17V)?



Yes, Burson sent one dual opamp as a replacement. I put them in and I have that nice sound back when it works. But it is increasingly intermittent. The left channel pops crackles and goes in and out. So it's time to take the hood off again. Switch the opamps to see if they are the problem. Apply the fader cleaner and deoxit the outs of the amp and plugs. I'll give the caps a good look over as well. The sound of these is incredible but I obviously can't live with the bad channel. All of this started when I put the op amps in.
Edit:
I've cleaned all the connections and that seems to have fixed the channel . Doh!. The simple things.


----------



## Socratease

zilch0md said:


> I put a tiny drop of Deoxit Gold into each hole in my DIP8 sockets and for a few days thereafter, my Burson V5 duals were rising out of the sockets - just on the spring tension applied to each pin.  LOL


 
  
 I'm a little concerned about those narrow sockets with the towering Bursons extending out of them, I expect they'd work lose if you transported your H10 very often just from the vibration and torque on the pins.  But I think some foam caps that would be pressed down on by the cover to hold them in place could be made if it was a problem.


----------



## canthearyou

socratease said:


> I'm a little concerned about those narrow sockets with the towering Bursons extending out of them, I expect they'd work lose if you transported your H10 very often just from the vibration and torque on the pins.  But I think some foam caps that would be pressed down on by the cover to hold them in place could be made if it was a problem.




The H10 isn't exactly a portable amp. I think they will be fine up to a complete drop of the amp.


----------



## jerick70

socratease said:


> I'm a little concerned about those narrow sockets with the towering Bursons extending out of them, I expect they'd work lose if you transported your H10 very often just from the vibration and torque on the pins.  But I think some foam caps that would be pressed down on by the cover to hold them in place could be made if it was a problem.


 
  
  


canthearyou said:


> The H10 isn't exactly a portable amp. I think they will be fine up to a complete drop of the amp.


 

 I took my H10 to and from work quite a few times with the Bursons installed.  No problems.  I wouldn't mail the amp with them installed though.


----------



## raoultrifan

tvnosaint said:


> Yes, Burson sent one dual opamp as a replacement. I put them in and I have that nice sound back when it works. But it is increasingly intermittent. The left channel pops crackles and goes in and out. So it's time to take the hood off again. Switch the opamps to see if they are the problem. Apply the fader cleaner and deoxit the outs of the amp and plugs. I'll give the caps a good look over as well. The sound of these is incredible but I obviously can't live with the bad channel. All of this started when I put the op amps in.
> Edit:
> I've cleaned all the connections and that seems to have fixed the channel . Doh!. The simple things.


 
 I believe your "old" V5 is designed for +/-15V, so why are you still using it in H10? AFAIK H10 has +/-16.5V on it's rails, so I strongly recommend you to take out the "old" op-amp.
 In case I didn't understand your setup, then sorry, but if you're using +/-15V op-amp in a +/-16.5V amplifier then...no other comments.


----------



## lenroot77

raoultrifan said:


> I believe your "old" V5 is designed for +/-15V, so why are you still using it in H10? AFAIK H10 has +/-16.5V on it's rails, so I strongly recommend you to take out the "old" op-amp.
> In case I didn't understand your setup, then sorry, but if you're using +/-15V op-amp in a +/-16.5V amplifier then...no other comments.




Is there a specific burson v5 need for the h10?


----------



## hpamdr

lenroot77 said:


> Is there a specific burson v5 need for the h10?


 
 Not sure if some V5 are specific to H10, but what i know is that only the one supporting 17V can fit in H10.
 I ordered a pair directly on website and asked after about H10 compatibility. Customer services asked me to return the one i received in order to get the newest ones rated at 17V. If they have still some 15V, I'm pretty sure that if you do not specify that it is for H10 or that it must support 17V you get what is on stock !


----------



## BaddogAudio

Hi, I am in the market for a desktop headphone amp and both the H10 and Soloist were contenders, but I can not actually sit down and listen to either, so, trying to decide based on feedback from people that have heard both.
  
 I have a quick questions that I would appreciate your thoughts on.  Massdrop has the H10 available now for $289 once unlocked and that seems like a really good price, so, was ready to pull the trigger.    But over the last couple of days, I have seen threads on here about people changing the OpAmp to a Burson V5 OpsAmp.   One guys said his $300 amp is now a $450 amp, but he was much happier with the sound of the H10 after the upgrade.    
  
 So, here are my choices,  I can purchase the Burson Soloist on Amazon for $399 or the H10 for $289 and spend $150 to upgrade it.  So, here are my questions, 
 -  Does this upgrade make the H10 sound like the Soloist?
 -  If so, is the Burson Soloist that much of a better amp?  
  
 Doesn't make sense to pay almost $300 for the H10 and then to dump another $150 in it to get it to sound more like a Burson versus just getting the Burson.


----------



## BaddogAudio

BTW,  I have not heard either amp first hand, and unfortunately have no place to go to hear either.  I am going on the recommendations of people here and on other sites as my only real input to making the decision.  I would love to hear the thoughts of anyone that has heard both amps in person or can give me a better view of either amp alone.


----------



## BaddogAudio

Oh for reference sake, the rest of my systems consist of a
 Source: 2015 iMac
 DAC:    DACPort Slim (for now may upgrade to the X12/U12, a Wyrd/Bifrost Uber or another desktop DAC and use the Slim with my laptop),
 Wire:    Blue Jeans LC1 interconnects
 Amp:    hopefully soon an H10 or Soloist
 Cans:    HE 400i


----------



## canthearyou

baddogaudio said:


> BTW,  I have not heard either amp first hand, and unfortunately have no place to go to hear either.  I am going on the recommendations of people here and on other sites as my only real input to making the decision.  I would love to hear the thoughts of anyone that has heard both amps in person or can give me a better view of either amp alone.




Well, the single channel V5's are $90 shipped. They are really the only ones needed. The stock duals are just fine.


----------



## willowbrook

raoultrifan said:


> I believe your "old" V5 is designed for +/-15V, so why are you still using it in H10? AFAIK H10 has +/-16.5V on it's rails, so I strongly recommend you to take out the "old" op-amp.
> In case I didn't understand your setup, then sorry, but if you're using +/-15V op-amp in a +/-16.5V amplifier then...no other comments.



Read the whole thread please...they sent him just one dual replacement.


----------



## willowbrook

hpamdr said:


> Not sure if some V5 are specific to H10, but what i know is that only the one supporting 17V can fit in H10.
> 
> I ordered a pair directly on website and asked after about H10 compatibility. Customer services asked me to return the one i received in order to get the newest ones rated at 17V. If they have still some 15V, I'm pretty sure that if you do not specify that it is for H10 or that it must support 17V you get what is on stock !




Burson has recently implemented the new QC process for V5s and even before, they used to fit. It's just that a lot of them have given out after some use, hence the investigation by Burson. I believe some are still rocking the old ones and there was a discussion about the DAC voltage output could affect the life of the V5s.


----------



## willowbrook

baddogaudio said:


> BTW,  I have not heard either amp first hand, and unfortunately have no place to go to hear either.  I am going on the recommendations of people here and on other sites as my only real input to making the decision.  I would love to hear the thoughts of anyone that has heard both amps in person or can give me a better view of either amp alone.



Don't really need to swap op amps unless you feel the need to. It should be dependent on what cans you plug in. I just cannot handle the sibilance/brightness of the HE-560 without the singles, so V5 singles tamed that for me. Of course there were improvements all around, but not so much like upgrading headphones. With that said, H10 could be tuned by swapping op amps, soloist not so much. If you are not sure the soloist is a good match for 400i, H10 would be a safe bet. Spending under $100 for op amp rolling whether it be bursons or not wouldn't hurt because the solist is 399 anyway.

A lot of good op amps beside V5s from what I've read.


----------



## zilch0md

baddogaudio said:


> Hi, I am in the market for a desktop headphone amp and both the H10 and Soloist were contenders, but I can not actually sit down and listen to either, so, trying to decide based on feedback from people that have heard both.
> 
> I have a quick questions that I would appreciate your thoughts on.  Massdrop has the H10 available now for $289 once unlocked and that seems like a really good price, so, was ready to pull the trigger.    But over the last couple of days, I have seen threads on here about people changing the OpAmp to a Burson V5 OpsAmp.   One guys said his $300 amp is now a $450 amp, but he was much happier with the sound of the H10 after the upgrade.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's unlikely that you'll be able to gather a consensus of opinion among people who have heard both of these amps and I've not heard either of them, but I can tell you that using the Burson V5 Duals in my iBasso PB2 portable amp is far more impressive than was my $999 Burson Soloist (which was soft in the treble, lacking in dynamics, and very laid back - as if I was seated a long way from the stage). The Burson Soloist is touted as having an "analog" sound, but I didn't find it to be organic or natural in the least.  It was just a low-resolving solid state amp.  If the $399 Soloist SL is in anyway worse than the Soloist, my guess is that you'd be happier with a full boat H10 (assuming you prefer lots of detail, transparency, soundstage, imaging, and a natural-sounding timbre, with no harshness or fatiguing treble.)  
  
 Again, I'm just guessing about a full boat H10 vs. a Soloist SL, but one company produced two products with which I have a lot of experience:  a $999 Soloist in which I was disappointed (for my tastes) and the Burson V5 op-amp, which continues to astonish me.  
  
 Mike


----------



## Kozic

baddogaudio said:


> Hi, I am in the market for a desktop headphone amp and both the H10 and Soloist were contenders, but I can not actually sit down and listen to either, so, trying to decide based on feedback from people that have heard both.
> 
> I have a quick questions that I would appreciate your thoughts on.  Massdrop has the H10 available now for $289 once unlocked and that seems like a really good price, so, was ready to pull the trigger.    But over the last couple of days, I have seen threads on here about people changing the OpAmp to a Burson V5 OpsAmp.   One guys said his $300 amp is now a $450 amp, but he was much happier with the sound of the H10 after the upgrade.
> 
> ...


 
 I have both the H10 and Soloist SL. If Planar are the headphone you use most I would go with the H10 just plan better with them.


----------



## GnuB

Does anyone have any experience with the Foxtex TH-X00 headphone and the Gustard H10?  I did a search but didn't find much.  I have been researching the HE-560 after hearing all of the impressions in this thread but the TH-X00 just dropped again and I am tempted.  I know they are different closed vs open but they are both planars so the Fostex may also be a good match but I would like to hear from someone that has actually heard it on the H10 before I choose.


----------



## Kozic

gnub said:


> Does anyone have any experience with the Foxtex TH-X00 headphone and the Gustard H10?  I did a search but didn't find much.  I have been researching the HE-560 after hearing all of the impressions in this thread but the TH-X00 just dropped again and I am tempted.  I know they are different closed vs open but they are both planars so the Fostex may also be a good match but I would like to hear from someone that has actually heard it on the H10 before I choose.


 
 The TH X00 Sound great with the H10 but they sound great with just about anything I have tried them with...H10,Asgard 2,Soloist SL,Aune T1,Fiio X3 Ext ext. The TH X00 are a fun bass haevy laid back sound the HE 560 would be more balanced airy sound that needs a good amp (like the H10) to sound their best, so it is all up to what you are looking for.


----------



## GnuB

>  The TH X00 are a fun bass haevy laid back sound ... so it is all up to what you are looking for
  
 I don't think bass heavy and laid back is what I am looking for.  I like deep well defined bass (quality over quantity) and slightly forward vocals.  A downside of joining the TH-X00 drop is that I would not likely see them for several months.  The HE-560's are readily available now.  Choices.. Choices...


----------



## Kozic

gnub said:


> >  The TH X00 are a fun bass haevy laid back sound ... so it is all up to what you are looking for
> 
> I don't think bass heavy and laid back is what I am looking for.  I like deep well defined bass (quality over quantity) and slightly forward vocals.  A downside of joining the TH-X00 drop is that I would not likely see them for several months.  The HE-560's are readily available now.  Choices.. Choices...


 
 Well I hate to give you more choices but the ZMF Blackwoods maybe just what you are looking for I picked up a pair over Xmass and they pair fantastically with the H10....Just saying if I had the choice between the two the ZMF would win over the TH X00


----------



## moriez

Seconded that TH-X00 may be considered bass heavy and indeed a very different headphone from the HE-560. The purple heart TH-X00 has a 2db increase in the low end even. Not recommended from how I interpret your words.
  
 The H10 combines well with both these headphones in my experience.


----------



## fritobugger

gnub said:


> Does anyone have any experience with the Foxtex TH-X00 headphone and the Gustard H10?  I did a search but didn't find much.  I have been researching the HE-560 after hearing all of the impressions in this thread but the TH-X00 just dropped again and I am tempted.  I know they are different closed vs open but they are both planars so the Fostex may also be a good match but I would like to hear from someone that has actually heard it on the H10 before I choose.




Please note that the TH-X00 is a dynamic driver can not planar.


----------



## GnuB

>Please note that the TH-X00 is a dynamic driver can not planar.
  
 My bad. I thought the internals looked similar.


----------



## bongieto

I had H10 for a while. I agree it is a good amp even unmodified. I just sold it and got a Teac Ha-501. I bought it as an Amazon Warehouse deal for $450. I can say that this amp from Teac is really really good. It bests any amp that I had and tried ever since I started this hobby (most are 2k to 3k range). The bad thing is it is very underrated and unpopular maybe because it comes from a non boutique manufacturer. I have it and I cannot find fault on anything. It just so right on every angle. My point is if you are looking at a great amp around the same price point (used Teac Ha-501 can be had for $450-500+ nowadays).


----------



## willowbrook

bongieto said:


> I had H10 for a while. I agree it is a good amp even unmodified. I just sold it and got a Teac Ha-501. I bought it as an Amazon Warehouse deal for $450. I can say that this amp from Teac is really really good. It bests any amp that I had and tried ever since I started this hobby (most are 2k to 3k range). The bad thing is it is very underrated and unpopular maybe because it comes from a non boutique manufacturer. I have it and I cannot find fault on anything. It just so right on every angle. My point is if you are looking at a great amp around the same price point (used Teac Ha-501 can be had for $450-500+ nowadays).


 
 I wonder how a full boat H10 can compare to it. Looks like a solid amp.


----------



## bongieto

It is a solid amp. Well made. Warranty is solid compared to these "new" chinese made amps. But the sound quality is unbelievable. Check this thread, everybody who has this amp seems to agree:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/646075/teac-ha-501-headphone-amp


----------



## wwmhf

baddogaudio said:


> Hi, I am in the market for a desktop headphone amp and both the H10 and Soloist were contenders, but I can not actually sit down and listen to either, so, trying to decide based on feedback from people that have heard both.
> 
> I have a quick questions that I would appreciate your thoughts on.  Massdrop has the H10 available now for $289 once unlocked and that seems like a really good price, so, was ready to pull the trigger.    But over the last couple of days, I have seen threads on here about people changing the OpAmp to a Burson V5 OpsAmp.   One guys said his $300 amp is now a $450 amp, but he was much happier with the sound of the H10 after the upgrade.
> 
> ...


 
  
 To me, H10 + V5 seems to be better than Burson Soloist.


----------



## bongieto

You also need to factor in other things like warranty and technical support. The issue with these chinese amps are always related to support. I heard Burson's support is excellent. I am not sure with Gustard. Thats one of the main readon why im now staying away from these china amps. Just something to think about.


----------



## canthearyou

bongieto said:


> You also need to factor in other things like warranty and technical support. The issue with these chinese amps are always related to support. I heard Burson's support is excellent. I am not sure with Gustard. Thats one of the main readon why im now staying away from these china amps. Just something to think about.




If you purchase through Massdrop they offer a warranty.


----------



## dryvadeum

Has anyone had ghe pleasure of listening to this amp with the Chord Mojo as DAC/preamp?


----------



## leggy

Massdrop delivered my H10 today, so excited. Waiting on my 400I to be delivered next week


----------



## sunneebear

dryvadeum said:


> Has anyone had ghe pleasure of listening to this amp with the Chord Mojo as DAC/preamp?


 
 The Mojo does not have a line out so why would you want to do that?
  
  
 For your benefit I just gave it a go but using a headphone out as a line level source is never a good idea.
  
 Headphone used for this test is the Ether C.
  
 QP1R line out  to H10 = Very clean, dynamic, musical.  Magnificent paring.
  
 QP1R optical out to Mojo, Mojo headphone out to H10 = loss of bass warmth, punch and dynamics.  Slightly shrill treble but still super clean.
 I ran the H10 on both +6 and +12 gain.  H10 volume set at 12 o'clock and max volume using the Mojo's volume as a pre.  I am shocked at how quiet the H10 is.  Almost dead silent with +12 gain and max volume.  No noise from the Mojo either, dead quiet.


----------



## Koolpep

sunneebear said:


> The Mojo does not have a line out so why would you want to do that?




Hold both volume keys pressed while switching the device on and the headphone out is switched to line out. 

Cheers


----------



## sunneebear

koolpep said:


> Hold both volume keys pressed while switching the device on and the headphone out is switched to line out.
> 
> Cheers


 
 He did asked to use it as a DAC/PreAmp
  
 Thanks, the Mojo is a loaner.


----------



## fishda

My next amp.i hope it goes on sale


----------



## willowbrook

fishda said:


> My next amp.i hope it goes on sale




It's on sale at MD right now.


----------



## Koolpep

sunneebear said:


> He did asked to use it as a DAC/PreAmp
> 
> Thanks, the Mojo is a loaner.




Yes. But I answered to your statement and not to his. The mojo has line out. 

Cheers.


----------



## zilch0md

koolpep said:


> Yes. But I answered to your statement and not to his. The mojo has line out.
> 
> Cheers.


 
  
 Thanks for the explanation - I had wondered why I had heard of several people using the Mojo as a DAC for their HiFi systems.


----------



## olek

bongieto said:


> I had H10 for a while. I agree it is a good amp even unmodified. I just sold it and got a Teac Ha-501. I bought it as an Amazon Warehouse deal for $450. I can say that this amp from Teac is really really good. It bests any amp that I had and tried ever since I started this hobby (most are 2k to 3k range). The bad thing is it is very underrated and unpopular maybe because it comes from a non boutique manufacturer. I have it and I cannot find fault on anything. It just so right on every angle. My point is if you are looking at a great amp around the same price point (used Teac Ha-501 can be had for $450-500+ nowadays).


 
 Can totally relate to that experience, although with different equipment. Currently Denon DA-300USB is killing all other dacs in my house. Especially clear with dsd128 input, and listening through speakers, ambiance this DAC is capable to produce is absolutely stunning. Easy to distinguish good recordings in 320 MP3 from redbook, and redbook from HD as well. DACMini and m9xx and not even close - and I think they are very good DACs, they were my favorites for a long time. Its MSRP is $550, but can be easily had for about $250, and at that price, it is ridiculous value. And yes, that DAC is pretty much unmentionable here, it is made by the major manufacturer, and therefore can not possibly be good, right? Right, I am thinking about buying another one for my secondary system.
  
 Oh, forgot to mention - headphone amp in that denon is IMHO not good at all - very stiff, un-detailed, proverbial SS sound. But DAC part is more than making up for it.


----------



## zilch0md

^ You've really got me interested in the Denon DA-300USB.
  
 It has seven boards in it.  This thing is a steal - on parts count, alone.
  
 https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hifi/dac/da300usb
  
 http://www.denon.jp/jp/product/hificomponents/usbdaconverters/da300usb
  
 And its uses 15V DC power (which means you could get really clean power from a battery pack, if not a good LPS.)
  
 Measures only 7x7x2-inch case - great for "transportable" use.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/698999/new-denon-da-300usb-dsd-dac-with-headphone-amplifier#post_10690491


----------



## olek

zilch0md said:


> ^ You've really got me interested in the Denon DA-300USB.


 
  
 I apologize to the others about OT, but will proceed with caution.
  
 It is a damn good DAC, as long as you can live with it (perceived?) weaknesses.
  
 One is that its bass is timid - this is not dac for bassheads. On the other side, bass control is excellent, it is tight, not boomy, not smeared, not bleeding into low mids, you get the idea.
  
 Other 'weakness' is that sound makes impression of being ... not detailed. At least at first listen. It errors on the side of smooth sound, that's it.
  
 At first, I thought that it was robbing sound of too much detail, and relegated that dac for listening to lossy internet radio, that would benefit from 'smooth' and 'un-fatiguing' character. Later (after much burn in) I realized that this DAC presents 320 mp3 as a pretty nice, but grayish and flat recording, while same performance in flac gains noticeable liveliness (lushness) and gains dimensionality. Other DACs (like DACMini or m9xx) tend to lend 320 mp3's some fake 'soundstage' and 'depth', but then they try to shove same artificial scene into good lossless recordings and it makes those subtle cues about real 'scene' to get obscured and to go away. Effect is rather subtle, but for me (and on some very good recordings) it makes a major difference.
  
 That also made me realize that probably most of the detail that I missed after switching to DA-300USB was probably fake detail - over-exaggerated micro-dynamics. It feels good to hear all those 'details', but to me ability to differentiate between lossy/lossless/HR/DSD is more of the objective measure, and this dac makes difference very easy to hear.
  
 Currently I do not hear 'timidness' in bass any longer, probably my brains got used to it, or maybe it was effect of long burn in, I do not care either way.
  
 Another upside of this dac is that not only it makes dsd128 recordings really stand out, but its implementation of DSD over DoP is outstanding. Let me elaborate.
  
 Sometimes (often) OS does not understand 'native' DSD, and device drivers are fighting it, because they can work only with PCM signal (macs are that way, and current standard linux/ubuntu too). DoP is a way of packaging DSD recording in PCM format (much like warriors inside Trojan Horse) to get recording 'over the wall', and then DSD is unpacked once that 'fake' DSP made it to the DAC. Problem with many (most?) dacs is that it takes them a bit of time to realize when user switches from playing DSD to playing regular redbook or hi-res, and that causes them to mute output a bit too late, resulting in very loud and unpleasant 'pop'. When I say LOUD I mean the pop that first makes you wonder about integrity of your ear drums, they makes you look at your expensive speakers wondering if diaphragm is blown to pieces, and then sniff the air for smell of burned amplifier.
  
 DACs are normally trying to mute the output circuit while they are switching from one format to another, and while that usually works well for switching from one PCM format to another, like 44.1 to 96 or 192, switching from 'DSD over DoP' is somehow tricky, and many does not do that muting well. I ended up disabling DSD in my m9xx for that reason - I value my eardrums, thankyouverymuch. da-300usb does not have this problem at all, muting circuits are well synced all the time.
  
 One more thing, many DACs are picking up any usb noise in you system. m9xx is like a 'customs officer' dog, it can 'sniff'' the external keyboard connected to my computer, or usb hub, or other dac etc etc. 300usb is absolutely immune to any usb noise - it does not make it to RCA out, period. Very good isolation from noisy ground on USB, best I have ever seen.
  
 Oh, and dynamics... at first they seemed to be a bit weak - definitely weaker than m9xx punchy dynamics, but... after some time I am starting to feel that m9xx is overdoing them, resulting in 'exciting', but 'a bit tiring' sound. As for 300usb's sound, all dynamics are there (like piano still sound like percussion instrument that it is), but they are not quite 'in your face', one has to listen to notice them consciously. Again, balance is on a side of sound that does not tire listener over long periods of time.
  
 BTW, 300usb's power brick is small pathetic switching wallwart, but.. it is hard to argue with the result. May be worth to upgrade, I just have not felt the urge yet. It is standard 15V barrel connector, should not be difficult to upgrade (or to go with battery option).
  
 Anyway, this DAC works great for me on classical music and acoustic jazz. It may not work so well for music that needs some extra 'grit' in the air, like electrical guitars etc but I have not listened much to that genre recently and that is fine with me.
  
 It does not impress at first sight, and one has to live with it for some time to appreciate it. Not good at all to instantly impress friends that audition your system, but if you have one... it's sound grows on you more and more over time.


----------



## Yeskey

Having received the aluminum block heat sink from Burson in the mail, I ran a quick temperature measurement to see if it provided any significant differences. I left the amp on playing music at regular listening volume for three hours and checked for average temperatures. Afterwards, I installed the heat sink with one side of thermal tape peeled and let it run at regular listening volumes for three more hours. I checked for average temperatures again.
  
 With the heat sink installed, the average surface temp on the outer case near the heat sink is approximately three degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it was without the heat sink. Overall, the entire unit is around two degrees warmer than without the heat sink. So I can assume that the aluminum block is helping transfer some heat towards the exterior.
  
 As far as I can tell, there is no discernible sound change between the two, but the amp runs a little "warmer" overall because of improved heat transfer to the outer case. Overall, I'd consider it a "peace of mind" addition if you're worried about anything cooking under the hood, but I wouldn't call it necessary with the new souped up SS V5 package. Perhaps there'd be a greater improvement if I removed the thermal tape peel from both sides of the aluminum block, but that'd make the Gustard H10 case really hard to open. Though I might consider doing that in the future. My Gustard H10 is rocking the "full-boat" of Burson SS V5 Op-amps.
  
 Incoming potato camera, the blue line above is the unpeeled adhesive strip which would make a solid contact with the top case when peeled back. The bottom strip has been peeled off and makes contact with the black heat sink below.


----------



## wwmhf

canthearyou said:


> The dual Bursons seem to make things too smooth and also shrink the soundstage.


 
  
 I have a feeling similar to the first comment above, but not so sure about the second.


----------



## wwmhf

yeskey said:


> Having received the aluminum block heat sink from Burson in the mail, I ran a quick temperature measurement to see if it provided any significant differences. I left the amp on playing music at regular listening volume for three hours and checked for average temperatures. Afterwards, I installed the heat sink with one side of thermal tape peeled and let it run at regular listening volumes for three more hours. I checked for average temperatures again.
> 
> With the heat sink installed, the average surface temp on the outer case near the heat sink is approximately three degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it was without the heat sink. Overall, the entire unit is around two degrees warmer than without the heat sink. So I can assume that the aluminum block is helping transfer some heat towards the exterior.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Is that a solid aluminum bar or a tube? How much does Burson charge for this heat sink package including both the aluminum bar and adhesive strips?


----------



## Yeskey

It's a solid bar of aluminum + adhesives that Burson provided free of charge, minus shipping costs. If you're curious about it, you can definitely email them.


----------



## BaddogAudio

Thank you, this was an excellent answer, as the way you describe the Soloist would not make it a choice for me.  So, will go with the H10 and know that at least I have an option to potentially address any short comings I may detect once I have it.


----------



## Socratease

yeskey said:


> Having received the aluminum block heat sink from Burson in the mail, I ran a quick temperature measurement to see if it provided any significant differences. I left the amp on playing music at regular listening volume for three hours and checked for average temperatures. Afterwards, I installed the heat sink with one side of thermal tape peeled and let it run at regular listening volumes for three more hours. I checked for average temperatures again.


 
 From a thermodynamic standpoint, there really shouldn't be any significant difference in the case temperature with the block: The same number of watts of heat generated by the amp have to make their way from the inside of the case to the outside, and the efficiency of the case to transfer them to ambient air hasn't changed at all.  Where the block _will _make a big difference is in the temperature of the final output components and the internal air temperature.  Where the finals previously had to heat up to a high temperature in order to get the heat to jump the air gap to the case, the block greatly increases the efficiency of moving it from the device to the case, lowering the temperature of the heat source.  What you'd really like to find out is what the difference is in the heat sink's temperature before and after the block is installed, but you'd need to put thermocouples in there to find out.


----------



## BaddogAudio

Great thanks for your response.  You mentioned reading about other OpAmps that are good options.  Can you give me some names of others that you have heard good things about?
 Thanks Again


----------



## BaddogAudio

Thanks good to hear from someone that has both and can provide a good reference across both.  Would you only go with the H10 for Planars or is the H10 generally a better choice and if so why?
 Thanks again for your help.


----------



## mandrake50

yeskey said:


> Having received the aluminum block heat sink from Burson in the mail, I ran a quick temperature measurement to see if it provided any significant differences. I left the amp on playing music at regular listening volume for three hours and checked for average temperatures. Afterwards, I installed the heat sink with one side of thermal tape peeled and let it run at regular listening volumes for three more hours. I checked for average temperatures again.
> 
> With the heat sink installed, the average surface temp on the outer case near the heat sink is approximately three degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it was without the heat sink. Overall, the entire unit is around two degrees warmer than without the heat sink. So I can assume that the aluminum block is helping transfer some heat towards the exterior.
> 
> ...


 

 Leaving that tape covering on probably is not helping heat dissipation.
 OTH.. It will be hard to pull the case with it stuck to the heat sink....


----------



## canthearyou

socratease said:


> From a thermodynamic standpoint, there really shouldn't be any significant difference in the case temperature with the block: The same number of watts of heat generated by the amp have to make their way from the inside of the case to the outside, and the efficiency of the case to transfer them to ambient air hasn't changed at all.  Where the block _will_ make a big difference is in the temperature of the final output components and the internal air temperature.  Where the finals previously had to heat up to a high temperature in order to get the heat to jump the air gap to the case, the block greatly increases the efficiency of moving it from the device to the case, lowering the temperature of the heat source.  What you'd really like to find out is what the difference is in the heat sink's temperature before and after the block is installed, but you'd need to put thermocouples in there to find out.




The aluminum block is far more efficient at transferring heat from the heatsink to the case than the air surrounding the heatsink. I would believe one would see an increase in case temperature, especially over the block.


----------



## Socratease

canthearyou said:


> The aluminum block is far more efficient at transferring heat from the heatsink to the case than the air surrounding the heatsink. I would believe one would see an increase in case temperature, especially over the block.


 
 If the overall case temperature went up with the addition of the block as you believe, then more heat energy would be lost to the outside air, because the flow of heat energy goes up in proportion to the difference in temperature for a given object.  Where would that extra energy come from?  If that increased heat loss wasn't being replaced by increased heat generated within the H10, then the case would cool down again until it reached equilibrium.
  
 You're probably right that the block alters the distribution of temperature around the surface of the case, making it hotter near the block but also cooler elsewhere.  But aluminum's high heat conductivity will limit how big that difference can get.


----------



## canthearyou

socratease said:


> If the overall case temperature went up with the addition of the block as you believe, then more heat energy would be lost to the outside air, because the flow of heat energy goes up in proportion to the difference in temperature for a given object.  Where would that extra energy come from?  If that increased heat loss wasn't being replaced by increased heat generated within the H10, then the case would cool down again until it reached equilibrium.
> 
> You're probably right that the block alters the distribution of temperature around the surface of the case, making it hotter near the block but also cooler elsewhere.  But aluminum's high heat conductivity will limit how big that difference can get.




You probably know more than I.


----------



## wwmhf

mandrake50 said:


> OTH.. It will be hard to pull the case with it stuck to the heat sink....


 
  
 This is also my concern too: "It will be hard to pull the case with it stuck to the heat sink...."


----------



## hpamdr

wwmhf said:


> This is also my concern too: "It will be hard to pull the case with it stuck to the heat sink...."


 

 2Burson : Better designs (for easy removal) is to add conductive foam to do contact with the case instead of sticking it !


----------



## BaddogAudio

have you heard both the H10 with and without the V5?   Also similar setting to the Burson?  I just ask cause having a direct chance to listen to both amps and pre/post upgrade is the best reference.


----------



## Socratease

It looked to me like Burson was using the same blue thermal pad material I used, which sticks a bit but isn't really an adhesive.


----------



## railrus

Guess happened? Murphy strike again
  
 I returned both noisy dual opamps back to Burson and after waited for about a month .....  Guess what happened?
  
 They sent me only ONE!
  
 The saga started around Xmas last year. I thought the single opamp would be an inexpensive upgrade to my US$200 H10 (bought directly from China). Instead of getting the single opamp, I received the dual opamp. Was miffed but they offered a generous offer and took the bait. After a considerable time, the single opamp arrives.  Then the noise pops up and read that Gustard has voltage rails higher than the Burson. After a quick swap and discover the dual opamps are getting bad. So off to Australia and hope the this will finally end the endless waiting. Two days ago i got this.
  
 So nearly after four months, my setup is still WIP. Burson make good stuff but the backend has to improve. First wrong model sent. Then wrong quantity. My patience is being really really tested. Each time something goes wrong and I have to wait for another month or so.
  
 Please Dennis do send *opamp dual one unit* ASAP. My hair goes into panic whenever my hand goes near my head. My sanity is in your hands.


----------



## willowbrook

railrus said:


> Guess happened? Murphy strike again
> 
> I returned both noisy dual opamps back to Burson and after waited for about a month .....  Guess what happened?
> 
> ...




I personally have excellent experience with Burson, but so sorry to hear that. I think they are really busy and all, but it should work out in the end.


----------



## leggy

So been using the H10 since one week with my HE400i and DT770 80ohm and I noticed it is rolling of the highs/details and pushing back the vocals a little bit. It's a nice amp if someone is looking for a laid back sound experiment but I am looking for an amp that increase details and bring forward the highs and vocals. Would changing the op-amps achieve that or I better look another amp?


----------



## willowbrook

leggy said:


> So been using the H10 since one week with my HE400i and DT770 80ohm and I noticed it is rolling of the highs/details and pushing back the vocals a little bit. It's a nice amp if someone is looking for a laid back sound experiment but I am looking for an amp that increase details and bring forward the highs and vocals. Would changing the op-amps achieve that or I better look another amp?


 
 Not sure about the bringing the highs and vocals forward, might be worthwhile to switch headphones instead for that. Switching op-amps definitely do make a difference in terms of clarity/feeling of grain. You can alter the brightness of the amp a little bit enough to make the headphone a good or a bad match with op-amps matching your needs. Not sure about changing the sound signature though.


----------



## leggy

Thank you Willowbrook. I guess I have to look into different standalone amp, one that at least doesn't smooth out part of the range


----------



## lenroot77

Deleted


----------



## Frihed89

This has probably been covered, but the thread is too long to look.
  
 Does anyone know what kind of output devices it uses?


----------



## mandrake50

frihed89 said:


> This has probably been covered, but the thread is too long to look.
> 
> Does anyone know what kind of output devices it uses?


 

 "Each channel has a BB OPA134PA - socketed - for voltage amplification and an eight transistor discrete buffer with *2 ea*. *2SA1837. 2SC4793, C546B, C556B*. Dual mono layout - more or less ... the circuit board itself is shared and not completely symmetric. There's a pair of NE5532s at back for balanced-unbalanced input conversion, and a pair of transistors (TIP122 TIP127) with trim pots and circuitry between the input and the main amplifier which looks a bit like voltage regulators to me but I can't see where they fit in the scheme of things."
  
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/rjm/1214-gustard-h10-headphone-amplifier.html
  
 This is the best I could find! I did not see this mentioned anywhere in this thread... but it is a pretty long one.


----------



## Frihed89

Thanks, Mandrake.


----------



## WildChinoise

Have been looking for moah powerful hp amps for a bit. Visited this thread a while back, read through 90 pages b4 I could stop myself. The enthusiasm is contagious. There was a recent drop on Massdrop and I sprung for one. It should be getting shipped out in the next week or so, looking forward to the ride.


----------



## networkn

Anyone have one of these they are looking to sell, that is in perfect working order and has no scratches or other external faults?


----------



## chat7

Do anyone compare the stock Gustard H10 and ifi micro ican SE? I'm in decision between the two. I have Mad dog and the prime and little budget


----------



## sunneebear

chat7 said:


> Do anyone compare the stock Gustard H10 and ifi micro ican SE? I'm in decision between the two. I have Mad dog and the prime and little budget


 
 I tried the ifi micro iDSD at home for a short time.  The headphone amp in that is just a strong as the ican SE.  In my opinion it is very capable to drive the MD but not like the H10 can.  Even if you don't go all out with a full set of Burson's, $50 can offer you a lot of choices to tune the H10 to your taste.  With the ifi you are stuck with the one sound which I didn't care much for.  IIRC it was some what neutral, flat, dry and a bit treble forward.  Even the O2 sounded more pleasing.


----------



## fperra

Time to pull the cover off and see what's going on with my H10. I'm getting crackling sounds coming through my cans with no music playing. I have 4 of the 17 volt Bursons installed. I'll be using my Little Dot MK9 in the meantime.


----------



## lenroot77

Anyone looking to get rid of a couple AD823ANZ opamps? Shoot me a pm!


----------



## networkn

Hi. Would an H10 with Full Bursons do a good job with the HD650 and Beyer T1? How would it compare to the Crack Amp and Speedball Upgrade, or the Grace Massdrop 920?


----------



## sunneebear

networkn said:


> Hi. Would an H10 with Full Bursons do a good job with the HD650 and Beyer T1? How would it compare to the Crack Amp and Speedball Upgrade, or the Grace Massdrop 920?



Both of those cans are high ohm so I think they would pair better with the Crack. I think the speedball is for low ohm cans. Don't know anything about the Grace.


----------



## willowbrook

networkn said:


> Hi. Would an H10 with Full Bursons do a good job with the HD650 and Beyer T1? How would it compare to the Crack Amp and Speedball Upgrade, or the Grace Massdrop 920?



Yea...I wouldn't pair full boat h10 with hd650. Maybe T1, but don't know how it sounds.


----------



## olek

@networkn I have both H10 and Crack. Here is my 'executive summary':
  
 Stock Crack << Stock H10 (for DT880/600)
 Stock Crack < Stock H10 (for HD650)
 Crack with Speedball >> Stock H10
 Crack with Speedball > H10 with AD797 (for DT880/600)
 Crack with Speedball >= H10 with AD797 (for HD650)
 Crack with Speedball <? H10 with Bursons
  
 Last line has question mark because I do not use Bursons opamps myself, but there was a good post couple dozen pages back where someone have finally decided to sell his (much upgraded and tweaked) Crack after getting Bursons opamps for H10.
  
 Overall, IMHO Crack and H10 are rather similar in sound, and as you can see, it is close tie between them in the upgrade race. Still, H10 is more practical, and has less problems with noise.
  
 P.S. Forgot to mention, I have Grace m9xx too, and it is nice little device, but size matters, and H10 is a better amp (at least, with AD797).


----------



## fperra

networkn said:


> Hi. Would an H10 with Full Bursons do a good job with the HD650 and Beyer T1? How would it compare to the Crack Amp and Speedball Upgrade, or the Grace Massdrop 920?


 
 I'm running full Bursons on my H10 with HD800S cans and at 1/3 volume it is very loud. At 1/2 volume its much louder than I can stand.


----------



## fperra

fperra said:


> Time to pull the cover off and see what's going on with my H10. I'm getting crackling sounds coming through my cans with no music playing. I have 4 of the 17 volt Bursons installed. I'll be using my Little Dot MK9 in the meantime.


 
 I found the problem. One of the dual Burson V5-D's is causing the snapping and popping. Replaced both with the original op amps and all is well. Sent an email off to Burson requesting a replacement. Waiting for their response.


----------



## lenroot77

Anyone know any legit sellers on eBay to buy opamps? I'm looking for the Ad823ANZ's.

I just don't feel like opening another account with mouser/digit and would prefer to use PayPal.

Thanks


----------



## networkn

olek said:


> @networkn I have both H10 and Crack. Here is my 'executive summary':
> 
> Stock Crack << Stock H10 (for DT880/600)
> Stock Crack < Stock H10 (for HD650)
> ...


 
  
 Hi. 
  
 I am confused. Line one says Crack is MUCH better than H10, but in line 3 you are saying stock H10 is MUCH better than Crack with Speedball. Is that correct? 
 I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that the Crack with Speedball is worse than the Crack without it. 
  
 Am I misunderstanding?


----------



## olek

networkn said:


> Am I misunderstanding?


 
  
 Unfortunately, yes.
  
 A > B was meant to be 'A is greater than B'
 A >> B 'A is noticeably greater than B'
 A >= B 'A is a bit better or equal to B'
  
 But you are really good about reading transitive dependencies (if A is better than B, and B is better than C, that must mean that A is better that C)


----------



## willowbrook

networkn said:


> Hi.
> 
> I am confused. Line one says Crack is MUCH better than H10, but in line 3 you are saying stock H10 is MUCH better than Crack with Speedball. Is that correct?
> I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that the Crack with Speedball is worse than the Crack without it.
> ...



Line 3 says crack w/ speedball is better than stock H10...


----------



## olek

willowbrook said:


> Line 3 says crack w/ speedball is better than stock H10...


 
 Yes, taken in a context of high-impedance headphones, and my personal ears.


----------



## willowbrook

olek said:


> Yes, taken in a context of high-impedance headphones, and my personal ears.



Thanks for the comparison. It'd be really nice to compare them together with upgraded crack and full boat H10 for T1 or HD800 or HD800s. The V5 opamps sure make a difference.


----------



## Walderstorn

I dont prefer the stock H10 to the stock Crack with my hd600. I dont have burson to do further comparissons.


----------



## olek

walderstorn said:


> I dont prefer the stock H10 to the stock Crack with my hd600. I dont have burson to do further comparissons.


 

 That is a beauty and curse of this hobby - everybody hears differently, everybody looks for different sound, and everybody's preferences change overtime. Which means that only reliable means of comparing/selecting gear is ... to experience it yourself.
  
 Admittedly, with stock H10/Crack are rather similar with HD650/600. I should have used =< sign there instead of <.
  
 Truth is, neither H10 nor Crack are totally transparent amplifiers - they both tweak sound a little to be a bit more softer, gentler and musical, and are losing a little bit of 'ambience' in the process. Mind you, for redbook quality material that is actually a good thing (especially given that modern recording studios frequently seems to be in business of destroying whatever good sound was in performance).. But they are not able to reveal difference between HD PCM and DSD, when some other gear is able to do a bit better job at it.
  
 Previous paragraph is to be taken in a context that I have not tried either Burson opamps, nor very expensive rare tubes. No idea how much those would change the game.


----------



## lenroot77

Pardon my ignorance but on the subject of OpAmps

Are the singles specifically for the RCA input and the doubles for balance input? 

Thanks


----------



## wwmhf

networkn said:


> Hi. Would an H10 with Full Bursons do a good job with the HD650 and Beyer T1? How would it compare to the Crack Amp and Speedball Upgrade, or the Grace Massdrop 920?


 
  
 H10 + HD650 sounds good, but I like to use T1 on my tube amp better.


----------



## Walderstorn

olek said:


> That is a beauty and curse of this hobby - everybody hears differently, everybody looks for different sound, and everybody's preferences change overtime. Which means that only reliable means of comparing/selecting gear is ... to experience it yourself.
> 
> 
> Truth is, neither H10 nor Crack are totally transparent amplifiers - they both tweak sound a little to be a bit more softer, gentler and musical, and are losing a little bit of 'ambience' in the process. Mind you, for redbook quality material that is actually a good thing (especially given that modern recording studios frequently seems to be in business of destroying whatever good sound was in performance).. But they are not able to reveal difference between HD PCM and DSD, when some other gear is able to do a bit better job at it.
> ...


 
  
 100% agree with your reply. Tbh i like a lack of total/100% transparency gives what i hear some "body and soul".
 My crack tubes do make a (much) better job than the stock ones, thats for sure. Hopefully in the future i will burson my h10. With my lack of knowledge or expertise its always fun to be able to change something that will end up changing the sound, for better.


----------



## wwmhf

olek said:


> @networkn I have both H10 and Crack. Here is my 'executive summary':
> 
> Stock Crack << Stock H10 (for DT880/600)
> Stock Crack < Stock H10 (for HD650)
> ...


 
  
 Your comparison above a kind indicates that H10 is not that good for working with very high ohm phones such DT880/600, and this corroborates my experiences with DT880/600 and T1 on H10


----------



## wwmhf

olek said:


> @networkn I have both H10 and Crack. Here is my 'executive summary':
> 
> Stock Crack << Stock H10 (for DT880/600)
> Stock Crack < Stock H10 (for HD650)
> ...


 
  
 One more factor: H10 can handle low ohm phones, such as Philips X2, better than OTL amps such as Crack.


----------



## wwmhf

fperra said:


> I found the problem. One of the dual Burson V5-D's is causing the snapping and popping. Replaced both with the original op amps and all is well. Sent an email off to Burson requesting a replacement. Waiting for their response.


 
  
 Sorry to hear your trouble. I am sure that Burson will get this issue handled smoothly.


----------



## fperra

wwmhf said:


> Sorry to hear your trouble. I am sure that Burson will get this issue handled smoothly.


 
 Its been two days and no response from Burson. I'll wait another day and send another email.


----------



## Walderstorn

wwmhf said:


> Your comparison above a kind indicates that H10 is not that good for working with very high ohm phones such DT880/600, and this corroborates my experiences with DT880/600 and T1 on H10


 


 Are you sure? I had no problems with my H10 driving the HD600, i would say they drive them pretty well for stock/price/performance. Although i have to say i dont have many more SS to compare it to. Also he stated that he prefered the h10 to the crack (both stock) even though for my ears thats not the case.


----------



## wwmhf

walderstorn said:


> Are you sure? I had no problems with my H10 driving the HD600, i would say they drive them pretty well for stock/price/performance. Although i have to say i dont have many more SS to compare it to. Also he stated that he prefered the h10 to the crack (both stock) even though for my ears thats not the case.


 
  
 HD600 is only of 300 ohms, not as high as 600 ohms in DT800 and T1


----------



## Walderstorn

wwmhf said:


> HD600 is only of 300 ohms, not as high as 600 ohms in DT800 and T1


 
 Sorry thought u meant DT800 and HD600 . Now i do understand.


----------



## olek

wwmhf said:


> Your comparison above a kind indicates that H10 is not that good for working with very high ohm phones such DT880/600, and this corroborates my experiences with DT880/600 and T1 on H10


 
 Yes, 600 Ohm is a bit too much for H10. It is not bad degradation (like O2), just ... sound lacks a certain sparkle.
 Anything up to 300 Ohm is very comfortable for H10. That is one of its greatest strengths - it plays will with almost all headphones, excluding only most sensitive IEMs and highest impedance phones.


----------



## lenroot77

olek said:


> Yes, 600 Ohm is a bit too much for H10. It is not bad degradation (like O2), just ... sound lacks a certain sparkle.
> Anything up to 300 Ohm is very comfortable for H10. That is one of its greatest strengths - it plays will with almost all headphones, excluding only most sensitive IEMs and highest impedance phones.




Do you just not like the sound with 600 ohm headphones? Or are u saying the H10 does not have enough power for 600 ohm phones?

Nvrmind I see what u mean now.


----------



## lenroot77




----------



## lenroot77

I guess the love fest is over?


----------



## olek

Yes, it is all relative. Crack with added Speedball (a week after that post) showed what DT880 were truly capable of.
  
 Without Speedball... H10 wins all over.


----------



## lenroot77

olek said:


> Yes, it is all relative. Crack with added Speedball (a week after that post) showed what DT880 were truly capable of.
> 
> Without Speedball... H10 wins all over.




All in all I'd guess none of them sound "terrible"?


----------



## Walderstorn

Very interesting olek.i do have to find a cheaper alternative to bursons i cant have them shipped here (the new version) because of customs and its already pricey for me.


----------



## hpamdr

walderstorn said:


> Very interesting olek.i do have to find a cheaper alternative to bursons i cant have them shipped here (the new version) because of customs and its already pricey for me.


 

 V4 Single is all you need...


----------



## Walderstorn

With customs is not practicsl right now.


----------



## olek

lenroot77 said:


> All in all I'd guess none of them sound "terrible"?


 

 Correct, both H10 and Crack are very nice sounding amps.


----------



## monoxyde1234

fperra said:


> I found the problem. One of the dual Burson V5-D's is causing the snapping and popping. Replaced both with the original op amps and all is well. Sent an email off to Burson requesting a replacement. Waiting for their response.


 
 my headphones started crackling on the right earcup a few days back as well, thought it was my cables, 
 bought some cheap replacements on amazon, the connectors on my old cables are getting loose anyways. 
 popped in my new cables, still crackling. started to think the driver was damaged. plugged it in directly to my DAP. 
 voila no more crackling noise. 
  
 I've been running the h10 24/7 for more than a month now, needless to say, it was hot. just turned it off waiting for it to cool down. 
 Gonna try using it again after it cools down, If crackling noise still persist, I might just be in the same predicament as you.


----------



## willowbrook

monoxyde1234 said:


> my headphones started crackling on the right earcup a few days back as well, thought it was my cables,
> bought some cheap replacements on amazon, the connectors on my old cables are getting loose anyways.
> popped in my new cables, still crackling. started to think the driver was damaged. plugged it in directly to my DAP.
> voila no more crackling noise.
> ...



The stock opamps should be fine, but once bursons start crackling, you should contact them right away for replacement.


----------



## monoxyde1234

willowbrook said:


> The stock opamps should be fine, but once bursons start crackling, you should contact them right away for replacement.


 
 after some troubleshooting, the V5-d is indeed the culprit. There are visible signs of melting on the opamps. needless to say, I have already swapped out to the stock ones.
 The V5-s also shows visible signs of melting but they are still working fine. Now I'm not sure if i should ask for replacements for my singles as well?


----------



## willowbrook

monoxyde1234 said:


> after some troubleshooting, the V5-d is indeed the culprit. There are visible signs of melting on the opamps. needless to say, I have already swapped out to the stock ones.
> The V5-s also shows visible signs of melting but they are still working fine. Now I'm not sure if i should ask for replacements for my singles as well?




Are they the 17v bursons?


----------



## monoxyde1234

willowbrook said:


> Are they the 17v bursons?


 
 affirmative. I've also just contacted them, and requested to replace the singles upon their discretion as well. hope to hear from them soon.
  
 Here are pictures of my 17v V5s full boat. Duals are bust, Singles, while visibly melted, are just working fine.


----------



## willowbrook

monoxyde1234 said:


> affirmative. I've also just contacted them, and requested to replace the singles upon their discretion as well. hope to hear from them soon.
> 
> Here are pictures of my 17v V5s full boat. Duals are bust, Singles, while visibly melted, are just working fine.



Damn...


----------



## Walderstorn

monoxyde1234 said:


> affirmative. I've also just contacted them, and requested to replace the singles upon their discretion as well. hope to hear from them soon.
> 
> Here are pictures of my 17v V5s full boat. Duals are bust, Singles, while visibly melted, are just working fine.


 
  
 What a shame, we really need a heatsink solution.


----------



## canthearyou

walderstorn said:


> What a shame, we really need a heatsink solution.




Not really. The new issued V5s will be able to accept the higher voltage that the H10 applies. The overheating issues should be resolved.


----------



## fritobugger

canthearyou said:


> Not really. The new issued V5s will be able to accept the higher voltage that the H10 applies. The overheating issues should be resolved.




This set of failures seem to be 17v.


----------



## Walderstorn

canthearyou said:


> Not really. The new issued V5s will be able to accept the higher voltage that the H10 applies. The overheating issues should be resolved.


 
  
 These were the new ones:
  


monoxyde1234 said:


> affirmative. I've also just contacted them, and requested to replace the singles upon their discretion as well. hope to hear from them soon.
> 
> Here are pictures of my 17v V5s full boat. Duals are bust, Singles, while visibly melted, are just working fine.


----------



## canthearyou

walderstorn said:


> These were the new ones:




Oops, my apologies. For some reason I thought the old ones were 17v.


----------



## wwmhf

To me and for now, a better or the best solution to avoid the heat issue when using Burson's opams in H10 is to leave H10 open all the time provided you dare and know not to get yourself electrified.


----------



## Walderstorn

wwmhf said:


> To me and for now, a better or the best solution to avoid the heat issue when using Burson's opams in H10 is to leave H10 open all the time provided you dare and know not to get yourself electrified.


 
  
 lol oh well better safe then sorry. You better think about some heatinks, i wonder if those old copper zalman gpu heatsinks would help.


----------



## wwmhf

walderstorn said:


> lol oh well better safe then sorry. You better think about some heatinks, i wonder if those old copper zalman gpu heatsinks would help.


 
  
 Heatsinks on Burson's opamps seem not to be very effective because the heat inside the H10 might be beyond the tolerance of Bursons. Reducing the heat of the whole H10 seems to be more critical.


----------



## Walderstorn

wwmhf said:


> Heatsinks on Burson's opamps seem not to be very effective because the heat inside the H10 might be beyond the tolerance of Bursons. Reducing the heat of the whole H10 seems to be more critical.


 
 I was thinking of adding those copper gpu heatinks to the H10 itself, i dont know if i still have them or they made the trash-voyage years ago ill have to look, they werent big and they are well built. If i had one of those infrared thermometers that would be helpful.


----------



## tjkim96

Just got my amp. I must say, it is *significantly *larger than my Schiit Stack! 
  
 First impressions:
  
 Other than being massive, I can't say I'm impressed with it just yet. I don't have the best trained ears as of yet, but I'm hard pressed to find a difference between this and my Magni 2. I'm hopeful with enough burn-in that it'll start showing off some of that magic that earlier comments mentioned 
  
 Any recommended gain settings? I'm using the HD650's with this as of right now, and plan on purchasing LCD-2's this summer. 
  
 EDIT: Upon listening to some songs comparing the two, I can definitely tell there's a difference. As to what exactly this difference is, I have no idea. I guess you can say the Gustard feels more... closed in and muffled?


----------



## canthearyou

tjkim96 said:


> Just got my amp. I must say, it is *significantly *larger than my Schiit Stack!
> 
> First impressions:
> 
> ...




Bursons!!!!


----------



## leggy

tjkim96 said:


> Just got my amp. I must say, it is *significantly *larger than my Schiit Stack!
> 
> First impressions:
> 
> ...



Your experience is similar to mine. It may open up a little bit, very slightly, but for my ears the H10 adds darkness/warmness. I liked the Asgard2 better, returned it because of excessive heat and thought to buy something better, as it was brighter and reveal details better.
Everyone here says Bursons but not sure how that improve the tonality and it's hard to spend $150+ for full set and be disappointed.


----------



## wwmhf

leggy said:


> Your experience is similar to mine. It may open up a little bit, very slightly, but for my ears the H10 adds darkness/warmness. I liked the Asgard2 better, returned it because of excessive heat and thought to buy something better, as it was brighter and reveal details better.
> Everyone here says Bursons but not sure how that improve the tonality and it's hard to spend $150+ for full set and be disappointed.


 
  
 A set of Burson's singles is more cost effective to improve the H10 than the full set.


----------



## willowbrook

Better try them singles ^^


----------



## leggy

How would the singles change the sound? Can someone describe please? How noticeable?


----------



## lenroot77

willowbrook said:


> Better try them singles ^^




I'm curious to know what you all run on the duals when just running the singles? 
Stock? 823's? Something else?

Also have there been less issues with the singles?

Thanks


----------



## swannie007

I run my Burson V5 singles with LME49720HA duals on adapters. Very happy with the results and definitely an improvement in sound quality in my opinion. Greater clarity to the music and better control of bass. This is just my opinion and your results may/will vary. Cheers from Oz.


----------



## willowbrook

lenroot77 said:


> I'm curious to know what you all run on the duals when just running the singles?
> Stock? 823's? Something else?
> 
> Also have there been less issues with the singles?
> ...



My duals are probably waiting for final delivery, used to use stock 5532 before and I couldn't complain. A lot of people also love 49720ha for it's clarity, but it can sound too bright.

Singles compared to stock has considerably less grain, the feeling of slight congestion is gone, and gets rid of sibilance for me. It is almost unlistenable without the singles because of the HE-560 sibilance, so it does make a quite a lot of difference. In general it makes it more 'warm', but does not lose any clarity throughout. Looking forward to trying the duals compared to the 5532.


----------



## willowbrook

Anyone looking for less energy, especially in the upper mid region while improving clarity will not be disappointed with the singles.


----------



## wwmhf

swannie007 said:


> I run my Burson V5 singles with LME49720HA duals on adapters. Very happy with the results and definitely an improvement in sound quality in my opinion. Greater clarity to the music and better control of bass. This is just my opinion and your results may/will vary. Cheers from Oz.




I like this configuration too.


----------



## lenroot77

Thanks guys I'll try these out!


----------



## Resonant

wwmhf said:


> I like this configuration too.





> Me three. IMHO the burson v5 singles sort of offset the HA's inherent brightness, and together the result is a natural 'crispness' that gives a useful touch of air to the warmish V5 sound.  It's a nice pairing.


----------



## swannie007

resonant said:


>


 

 Like sweet and sour chicken!! Good balance.


----------



## willowbrook

Would really like to try 49720ha with singles, but all the diy shops near my area stopped selling them for some reason. Hate to use ebay for opamps.


----------



## willowbrook

Just put my V5 duals in replacement of stock NE5532P and I really don't notice much difference with my FLC8s. Might have to say it sounds unfavorable, but will have to burn-in and wait until my HE-560 gets back.


----------



## olek

Seeing that even some of new batch V5s have already bit the dust, starting to contemplate upgrading to V4 singles instead, given that they are rated at 20V, unless I am mistaken.
  
 Anybody with experience with both V4/V5 wants to chime in?


----------



## canthearyou

olek said:


> Seeing that even some of new batch V5s have already bit the dust, starting to contemplate upgrading to V4 singles instead, given that they are rated at 20V, unless I am mistaken.
> 
> Anybody with experience with both V4/V5 wants to chime in?




I'm not sure the V4s will fit without modifying the cover.


----------



## mandrake50

canthearyou said:


> I'm not sure the V4s will fit without modifying the cover.


 

 They fit just fine. I ran them for awhile before getting the V5s. There is an adapter/extender  that can be removed giving plenty of clearance. Later V4s sold fo the H10 had one of the singles cut so as not to interfere with board components.


----------



## canthearyou

mandrake50 said:


> They fit just fine. I ran them for awhile before getting the V5s. There is an adapter/extender  that can be removed giving plenty of clearance. Later V4s sold fo the H10 had one of the singles cut so as not to interfere with board components.




Ah, good to know.


----------



## MLegend

Gain should  be set to either none (all switches down) or +6. Depends on which one sounds better to you. If you're using rca instead of balanced just make sure the input switch is down.


----------



## fperra

Been over a week now and I haven't heard back from Burson on my defective V5-d. Also, it appears one of the single V5's is going bad as it is starting to pop and make noise. These are the improved (?) 17 volt ones.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

fperra said:


> Been over a week now and I haven't heard back from Burson on my defective V5-d. Also, it appears one of the single V5's is going bad as it is starting to pop and make noise. These are the improved (?) 17 volt ones.


 

 How many times have you contacted them?


----------



## fperra

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> How many times have you contacted them?


 
 Twice.


----------



## canthearyou

fperra said:


> Been over a week now and I haven't heard back from Burson on my defective V5-d. Also, it appears one of the single V5's is going bad as it is starting to pop and make noise. These are the improved (?) 17 volt ones.




Have you checked your spam folder?


----------



## fperra

Yes I have. Nothing from them. I pulled all two remaining V5's out today since they are popping and making other noises. Visually they look OK, but for now I'm back to AD797 IC's for the singles.


----------



## willowbrook

fperra said:


> Yes I have. Nothing from them. I pulled all two remaining V5's out today since they are popping and making other noises. Visually they look OK, but for now I'm back to AD797 IC's for the singles.


 

 They might be busy or maybe it's holiday for them. They will reply though, have to give it time. Sucks when problems arise though...


----------



## Burson Audio

Hi Guys,
 
With further testing, we found that our V5 opamps could become unstable when the gain setting of the Gustard H10 is set to -12 or - 6. 
 
Our V5 works perfectly at +6 or +12 gain levels. 
 
Please make sure that prior to the implementation of our V5 opamps, the below 2 steps are taken.
 
1. Install the customised heat-sink provided by us.  This is provided free of charge when you purchase our H10 upgrade pack. (Details here)
 
2. Set the gain setting according to the photo below and make sure the -6 and -12 are in the off position.
 
Thank you all for your continuing support for us and this wonderful hobby. : ) For more information on this topic please see here: http://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-v5-ss-opamp-mod/
 

  
 Warm regards
 Dennis
  
 Please do not PM me, due to an arrangement I have with Head-fi I will only login via my work desktop PC and due to my work arrangement I don't stay at my desk often. So, if you have any question please send me an email via our main email: info@bursonaudio.com


----------



## fritobugger

T





burson audio said:


> [COLOR=222222]Hi Guys,[/COLOR]
> [COLOR=222222] [/COLOR]
> [COLOR=222222]With further testing, we found that our V5 opamps could become unstable when the gain setting of the Gustard H10 is set to -12 or - 6. [/COLOR]
> [COLOR=222222] [/COLOR]
> ...




The Amp shown is set to balanced but the input is unbalanced.


----------



## Burson Audio

Same apply to both balanced and unbalanced input. The photo is only shown as an example.


----------



## MLegend

Lol, Glad to see i'm still not the only one that made that mistake


----------



## willowbrook

Well, time to stop using my H10 as an amp for my FLC8s...thanks for letting us know.


----------



## canthearyou

burson audio said:


> [COLOR=222222]Hi Guys,[/COLOR]
> [COLOR=222222] [/COLOR]
> [COLOR=222222]With further testing, we found that our V5 opamps could become unstable when the gain setting of the Gustard H10 is set to -12 or - 6. [/COLOR]
> [COLOR=222222] [/COLOR]
> ...




What about with ALL gain switches in the off position?


----------



## Walderstorn

Since its come to subject what is the advantage of using balanced xlr on the amp if the headphone output is SE?


----------



## tvnosaint

Mine always ran in +6. So.....


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

Quote:


willowbrook said:


> They might be busy or maybe it's holiday for them. They will reply though, have to give it time. Sucks when problems arise though...


 
  


fperra said:


> Twice.


 
  
 They have time to post to Head-Fi though.....
 So unless they have a massive number of emails to sift through, fperra should have got a response no?


----------



## fperra

They responded yesterday after they posted on the forum.


----------



## Burson Audio

During our test we found that with +6 and +12 setting the dual opamp on the back work most stable. With all other setting seems to cause the dual V5 to overheat. We are not sure the cause since we do not know how H-10 circuit configured.


----------



## willowbrook

burson audio said:


> During our test we found that with +6 and +12 setting the dual opamp on the back work most stable. With all other setting seems to cause the dual V5 to overheat. We are not sure the cause since we do not know how H-10 circuit configured.



Does that mean it is OK to run -6/-12 with singles only and stock NE5532?


----------



## Burson Audio

Interesting question


----------



## Burson Audio

Yes, seems this gain setting only affect the dual opamp on the back


----------



## willowbrook

burson audio said:


> Yes, seems this gain setting only affect the dual opamp on the back



Good to hear! Thanks for letting us know.


----------



## olek

This is most interesting development on the Burson's front. Makes total sense - opamp in unstable configuration can start oscillating and will pollute device with high frequencies, causing everything to work extra hard, overheat and so on.
  
 That implies that melting down V5 Bursons would happen only to people with full boat. Have we ever seen anybody with half-boat witness 'crying' Bursons?
  
 Oh, wait, it might be more complicated... and some older half-boats might have melted simply because of voltage issue. Dunno.


----------



## willowbrook

I've been using my full boat for some time now with -12 gain, I better open it up tonight and see... scary


----------



## jackharm

OG V5's(full boat) at +6, worse thing I have come across was that one of the singles had it's red casing a little raised (like 1-2mm); to which I just ran the H10 for like 1 hour to heat it up and then just firmly pressed down on the casing. *knocks on wood*


----------



## tommo21

I can confirm that my Dual V5's failed when running at -6. I had burned them in for 200 hours in "normal" position without problems. 
  
 I'm using 49720HA now, and they sound good. I hope my replacements arrive soon though.


----------



## monoxyde1234

Dennis just got back to me about 2 days ago. I just have to ship back the opamps to them then they can process my replacement. planning on shipping both singles and duals by tomorrow. I wonder how much the postage will be from here in the U.S. Apparently, per their new post, they are also offering the h10 heatsink for free for the h10 opamp pack. I wonder if I'll still be eligible.


----------



## willowbrook

monoxyde1234 said:


> Dennis just got back to me about 2 days ago. I just have to ship back the opamps to them then they can process my replacement. planning on shipping both singles and duals by tomorrow. I wonder how much the postage will be from here in the U.S. Apparently, per their new post, they are also offering the h10 heatsink for free for the h10 opamp pack. I wonder if I'll still be eligible.



Postage shouldn't be much without tracking. Could take really long though.


----------



## Samlamanna

Looks like I will be going with the muses 02 in the dual slot. Not worth the risk for now. I like the idea of replacing a bipolar opamp with another bipolar anyway. Hear they are more stable/quiet in the input stage. Anyone else have this combo? I adore the muses in my little dot, the transition from opa2107 to muses was shocking. Having said that the v5 singles have been stellar and hope they don't pop.


----------



## happyguitarist

burson audio said:


> During our test we found that with +6 and +12 setting the dual opamp on the back work most stable. With all other setting seems to cause the dual V5 to overheat. We are not sure the cause since we do not know how H-10 circuit configured.


 
  
 Just to confirm, did you test running the gain at 0?


----------



## fperra

Massdrop has another sale going on the H10. $290 if they get 10 buyers. Can't beat that deal.


----------



## canthearyou

fperra said:


> Massdrop has another sale going on the H10. $290 if they get 10 buyers. Can't beat that deal.




You could buy mine from the classifieds for a little less and have it in a few days. Lol


----------



## fperra

canthearyou said:


> You could buy mine from the classifieds for a little less and have it in a few days. Lol


 
 I already have one, but thanks for the offer.


----------



## desik

Hi Guys,
 How does H10 compare to Lyr2 for LCD-2F ?


----------



## Burson Audio

We did and we found that the at "0" gain and less the dual V5 heat up too much. That is why we recommend the +6 and +12 setting.


----------



## willowbrook

Anybody can compare 49720ha and v5 duals? Is 49720ha noticeably better than NE5532? Thinking of using something else better than stock at -12 gain, but not duals.


----------



## wwmhf

willowbrook said:


> Anybody can compare 49720ha and v5 duals? Is 49720ha noticeably better than NE5532? Thinking of using something else better than stock at -12 gain, but not duals.


 
  
 I like 49720ha better than V5 duals if I have to make a conclusion. V5 duals are not bad, but they sound a little slow and a little too smooth to me. In fact, I can live with both 49720ha and V5 duals. Here is my preference of these three dual opamps:
  
 49720ha >= V5 duals > NE5532


----------



## Samlamanna

I will look into the 49720ha. I've read they might be a little bass light possibly?


----------



## willowbrook

Just got the V5 duals in with my HE-560 and wow, things just keep getting better and better. More body while retaining detail. However, downsides are it slightly loses too much mid-upper~upper treble, just slightly. Also, the duals seem to add some artifcial sparkle, it sounds something I've experienced with the AD823. It is very interesting, but at the same time it can be very annoying. It is not the problem with the op-amps, but it is actually a problem with modern recordings. Since my majority of music library are modern recordings, it can be fatiguing. It is not sibilance that pierce your ears, but it is more of added sparkle. Going back to NE5532 is noticeable with lack of body, but still sounds good  Definitely like the improvement, the piano solo part in Eric Clapton - Old Love (Unplugged 1992) sounds like heaven. It can sound quite muddy compared to the stock though. Not my cup of tea, but pros outweigh the cons.


----------



## sunneebear

willowbrook said:


> Just got the V5 duals in with my HE-560 and wow, things just keep getting better and better. More body while retaining detail. However, downsides are it slightly loses too much mid-upper~upper treble, just slightly. Also, the duals seem to add some artifcial sparkle, it sounds something I've experienced with the AD823. It is very interesting, but at the same time it can be very annoying. It is not the problem with the op-amps, but it is actually a problem with modern recordings. Since my majority of music library are modern recordings, it can be fatiguing. It is not sibilance that pierce your ears, but it is more of added sparkle. Going back to NE5532 is noticeable with lack of body, but still sounds good  Definitely like the improvement, the piano solo part in Eric Clapton - Old Love (Unplugged 1992) sounds like heaven. It can sound quite muddy compared to the stock though. Not my cup of tea, but pros outweigh the cons.


 
  
 I have always believed that full Bursons is the clearest window into your music.  Thing is, that is not what everyone wants.  A little synergy here, color there, everyone's palette is different.  My H10 always run full Burson. I have other amps for different flavors but I always come back to the H10 for the truth and sometimes the truth can be ugly.


----------



## monoxyde1234

Shipped back my opamps to burson for replacements a couple days back. paid about $13, not bad considering i was expecting to pay much more. now back to stock h10.


----------



## LS302

Hi guys, I'm waiting for my MD ZMF Vibro II Zebra and worrying whether my Bravo Ocean can amp it right. H10 looks interesting to me. Is H10 good to amp Vibro II? Also considering if I go H10, then which DAC is good to stack (X12, NFB-1DAC, NFB-28, DAC-19 or TEAC UD-301)? And should I plan to go balanced?


----------



## fritobugger

ls302 said:


> Hi guys, I'm waiting for my MD ZMF Vibro II Zebra and worrying whether my Bravo Ocean can amp it right. H10 looks interesting to me. Is H10 good to amp Vibro II? Also considering if I go H10, then which DAC is good to stack (X12, NFB-1DAC, NFB-28, DAC-19 or TEAC UD-301)? And should I plan to go balanced?


 
  
 The H10 works well with my Vibro Mk. I.


----------



## tvnosaint

I have a v1vibro and the h10. It sounds very easy on the ears. Very mello together. If you have to get a new dac and amp , maybe look in the classifieds . There is an audio gd there for $500. Zack likes that pairing and he also likes the jds element. I enjoy the h10 with my vibro and there are some good deals on those here too. But, since you need a dac too you may look at a combo that the maker recommends. Vibro sounds great SE. balanced was a mild improvement. Unlike the omni which is amazing balanced. Ymmv.


----------



## LS302

Thanks! Good to know this. Omni is a bit far from my budget. Does the XLR balanced and RCA input on H10 deliver a lot difference sound?


----------



## MLegend

tvnosaint said:


> I have a v1vibro and the h10. It sounds very easy on the ears. Very mello together. If you have to get a new dac and amp , maybe look in the classifieds . There is an audio gd there for $500. Zack likes that pairing and he also likes the jds element. I enjoy the h10 with my vibro and there are some good deals on those here too. But, since you need a dac too you may look at a combo that the maker recommends. Vibro sounds great SE. balanced was a mild improvement. _*Unlike the omni which is amazing balanced*_. Ymmv.


 
 Care to elaborate?


----------



## tvnosaint

When I use the zmf omni in balanced mode it opens up more. All of its strengths seem to get a steroid treatment. Clearer, better layering and soundstage , blacker background. The vibro takes the extra power in stride . It sounds a little more energetic. Not much of a change to me. On the upside, vibro is the least finicky headphone I've ever owned. It just always sounds good. There is nothing I've amped it with that made me say "that's a bad pairing". All it does is score touchdowns. It's dark and easy to listen to also very comfy to me. Not like hd800 comfy but old shoe comfy. I will say the geek out v2 SE elevated the bass to the point of interfering with the mids. But not unacceptably. Vibro is easier to drive than the omni as well. Hope that covers it.


----------



## MLegend

Thanks, it just piqued my curiosity when you mentioned the omni sounding better balanced vs single ended. I found the same thing with my 650s with my set up.


----------



## desik

ls302 said:


> Thanks! Good to know this. Omni is a bit far from my budget. Does the XLR balanced and RCA input on H10 deliver a lot difference sound?


 

 I'm also interested to know this.
  
 Also, does XLR cable choice affect SQ?


----------



## tvnosaint

I dunno yet. Just one cheapie and it's fantastic. Getting one this week for he560 then an upgrade for omni next month. I know we're a bit off topic here, sorry.


----------



## willowbrook

Does anyone have experience with any headphones that have similar signature to HE-560, but with more bass response, more upper treble, and less upper-mid energy, whether it be dynamic or planar. I am planning to sell my HE-560 for something else and keep using my full boat H10. I was possibly thinking the T1. If anyone has any experience, any advice would be great. I feel my HE-560 with full boat lacks sub-bass and has too much mid-upper energy while treble extension is not greatly heard. Basically, the sparkle/air is toned down when using duals. However, without duals it lacks body...HE-560 is very hard to match 
  
 Also, on top of that, looking for something with better soundstage and imaging.


----------



## wwmhf

willowbrook said:


> Does anyone have experience with any headphones that have similar signature to HE-560, but with more bass response, more upper treble, and less upper-mid energy, whether it be dynamic or planar. I am planning to sell my HE-560 for something else and keep using my full boat H10. I was possibly thinking the T1. If anyone has any experience, any advice would be great. I feel my HE-560 with full boat lacks sub-bass and has too much mid-upper energy while treble extension is not greatly heard. Basically, the sparkle/air is toned down when using duals. However, without duals it lacks body...HE-560 is very hard to match
> 
> Also, on top of that, looking for something with better soundstage and imaging.


 
  
 By my experience, it seems not hard to find tube amps that work better with T1 than H10.


----------



## olek

@willowbrook - my T70 are fitting your description, but that is subject of my interpretation of your words. T1 should be great too.
  
 And I think @wwmhf is right, H10 may not give justice to whatever Beyers you choose. Maybe full boat is different beast, and it will be OK, but stock H10 is not quite perfect for Beyers.
 But... there is only one way to find it out... right - it is to try it out for yourself! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I would like to share my discovery of what is a perfect (for me) amp for Beyers. Got my hands on Tascam DA-3000 a week ago, primarily for digitizing vinyl, but also to use as standalone computer-less DAC. I had very low expectations of its headphone amp, and it surprised me BIG time. In few words: it works better for high impedance cans than BH Crack with Speedball. Not sure how that is even possible - that should not be, as I understand that amp is built on some lowly opamps. Still, truth is, T70 sounds very nice (if a touch analytical) from it, HD600 were also nice, a bit dry, but swapping in cable from HD650 made them majestic and a bit on 'rich' side, and biggest surprise of all - DT880 600Ohm.... oh man... I always thought about them as not very detailed headphones, and now their detail is on the same level with T70, their explosiveness (that always lacked because amps are having such a hard time swinging 600 Ohm) is through the roof, and they maintain their neutral signature that I always was very fond of.
  
 Makes me shudder that I almost sold them (DT880).
  
 Anyway, I have finally decided that I am firmly in the camp of dynamic high impedance headphones. So, I am in the process of selling some of my other gear, including HE400i, and sadly, H10. Probably Crack will go too, but holding on to that for now.
  
 ... Still do not understand how that DA-3000 can have such good, transparent headphone amp. This hobby is full of surprises and strange twists.


----------



## willowbrook

olek said:


> @willowbrook - my T70 are fitting your description, but that is subject of my interpretation of your words. T1 should be great too.
> 
> And I think @wwmhf
> is right, H10 may not give justice to whatever Beyers you choose. Maybe full boat is different beast, and it will be OK, but stock H10 is not quite perfect for Beyers.
> ...



Thanks for the suggestion. The only brand I can think of that makes the type of sound sig I am looking for is beyer. Maybe the HD800 is also a good choice, but I do not want to go through the hassle of matching an amp and dac for it. Also, it is pretty expensive. I might have to look at thr t70 or t90 that you mentioned. T1 is one of the headphones on my list to have for a long time, but never got a chance to try it.


----------



## mmlogic

olek said:


> @willowbrook - my T70 are fitting your description, but that is subject of my interpretation of your words. T1 should be great too.
> 
> And I think @wwmhf is right, H10 may not give justice to whatever Beyers you choose. Maybe full boat is different beast, and it will be OK, but stock H10 is not quite perfect for Beyers.
> But... there is only one way to find it out... right - it is to try it out for yourself!
> ...


 
  
 Now that you mention it.
http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZDSD.html


----------



## olek

Yes! ZDSD is upgraded Tascam DA-3000!
  
 Do not know how much those upgrades help but personally I find that in DA-3000 ADC in it is top-notch, DAC is good (half a notch below Denon DA-300USB), and amp is stellar, if unforgiving for bad recordings/sources. My current phono stage is a bit bright, and I end up switching from DA-3000 to Crack on bright recordings, since it is more gentle on high frequencies. Nice part about having couple headphones and amps that are similar and compatible is that it is easy to switch combinations to adjust for more clarity, or more forgiveness, while keeping overall sound signature. Before (with HE400 vs Beyers) jump between them was always too much... it takes days to readjust my ears from one to another, sound signature is just too different.


----------



## MLegend

willowbrook said:


> Does anyone have experience with any headphones that have similar signature to HE-560, but with more bass response, more upper treble, and less upper-mid energy, whether it be dynamic or planar. I am planning to sell my HE-560 for something else and keep using my full boat H10. I was possibly thinking the T1. If anyone has any experience, any advice would be great. I feel my HE-560 with full boat lacks sub-bass and has too much mid-upper energy while treble extension is not greatly heard. Basically, the sparkle/air is toned down when using duals. However, without duals it lacks body...HE-560 is very hard to match
> 
> Also, on top of that, looking for something with better soundstage and imaging.


 
 What gain is your H10 set to?


----------



## ginetto61

olek said:


> ...  I would like to share my discovery of what is a perfect (for me) amp for Beyers. Got my hands on *Tascam DA-3000 *a week ago, primarily for digitizing vinyl, but also to use as standalone computer-less DAC.
> I had very low expectations of *its headphone amp*, and it *surprised me BIG time*.
> In few words: it works better for high impedance cans than BH Crack with Speedball. ....
> *Still do not understand how that DA-3000 can have such good, transparent headphone amp*. This hobby is full of surprises and strange twists.
> Not sure how that is even possible - that should not be, as *I understand that amp is built on some lowly opamps*


 
  
 Good morning !  thank you very much for your very interesting advice.
 understand from where ? do you have additional information ?
 i wonder if a service manual/schematic is available ... i would be curious to look at the schematic.
  


> Anyway, I have finally decided that* I am firmly in the camp of dynamic high impedance headphones*.


 
 Do you mean *HPs with Z>250 ohm ?  *Could you please elaborate a little more the main reasons for this choice ? sorry if you have already said and i miss it.
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## leggy

willowbrook said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. The only brand I can think of that makes the type of sound sig I am looking for is beyer. Maybe the HD800 is also a good choice, but I do not want to go through the hassle of matching an amp and dac for it. Also, it is pretty expensive. I might have to look at thr t70 or t90 that you mentioned. T1 is one of the headphones on my list to have for a long time, but never got a chance to try it.




Keep in mind, both T1 2nd gen and T90 lack in mids. I auditioned both and wasn't impressed, at least not at that price point.


----------



## jazzwave

zilch0md said:


> Ugggh!
> 
> Every indication, however, is that they will take good care of us, after the fact.


 
  
 I sent failed  one Single V5 opamp to Burson in Australia  , waiting for almost 1.5 month to get replacement.
 Las t week the replacement arrived but WRONG type . they sent me Dual type...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , what installed in my HD10 is Single opamp
  
 What's wrong with Burson customer service ? Bad QA/QC, send wrong opamp
  
 I paid return shipping almost same price with Opamp itself


----------



## fritobugger

willowbrook said:


> Does anyone have experience with any headphones that have similar signature to HE-560, but with more bass response, more upper treble, and less upper-mid energy, whether it be dynamic or planar. I am planning to sell my HE-560 for something else and keep using my full boat H10. I was possibly thinking the T1. If anyone has any experience, any advice would be great. I feel my HE-560 with full boat lacks sub-bass and has too much mid-upper energy while treble extension is not greatly heard. Basically, the sparkle/air is toned down when using duals. However, without duals it lacks body...HE-560 is very hard to match
> 
> Also, on top of that, looking for something with better soundstage and imaging.


 
  
 I am happy with the stock H10 driving the HE-500 with Focus pads, the Beyer T90 and the ZMF x Vibro Mk.I.


----------



## willowbrook

fritobugger said:


> I am happy with the stock H10 driving the HE-500 with Focus pads, the Beyer T90 and the ZMF x Vibro Mk.I.


 
 Wish I could get a comparison of T90 and HE-560. How is T90 on stock? Bass, balance, treble/air wise. I've heard many things about the piercing treble of T90, and H10 w/ s,duals might be able to tame it to just a right amount.


----------



## willowbrook

leggy said:


> Keep in mind, both T1 2nd gen and T90 lack in mids. I auditioned both and wasn't impressed, at least not at that price point.


 
 Ah...didn't see your post there. Thanks for the tip. Can't seem to find something I want, might hold off on buying open cans right now.


----------



## fritobugger

willowbrook said:


> Wish I could get a comparison of T90 and HE-560. How is T90 on stock? Bass, balance, treble/air wise. I've heard many things about the piercing treble of T90, and H10 w/ s,duals might be able to tame it to just a right amount.




I don't find the treble in the T90/H10 combo to be too harsh but my ears are not young either. I have a Sabre based dac and it is not warm so the treble should be a bit sparkly but the H10 may be smoothing it out. Bass is great. Mids are not missing just slightly recessed. It doesn't have the air and soundstage of an HD800 but it is nice none the less.


----------



## olek

ginetto61 said:


> Good morning !  thank you very much for your very interesting advice.
> understand from where ? do you have additional information ?
> i wonder if a service manual/schematic is available ... i would be curious to look at the schematic.
> ....
> ...


 
  
 There are manufacturer's references online that it has JRC NJM2114 and TI NE5532 op-amps in the audio path.
  
 Also, its previous incarnation, dv-ra 1000hd, was known to be full of budget opamps and some people were upgrading them (not nearly as easy as upgrading H10).
  
 I have to admit, I just assume that headphone amp is built on NE5532, but I could be very wrong. It sounds good, no matter what it is in it.
  
 As for my 'high impedance HP camp' comment...  Let me explain my twisted line of thought...
  
 The way I see it, medium-to-high quality headphones those days fall in one of 2 categories: either high current planars, or high impedance dynamic.
 Of course, there are some headphones outside of those camps, like electrostatics, or those Fostex 600/900, but they are in minority, often with their own peculiarities.
  
 Given that I strive for a very neutral sound with high transparency (and willing to sacrifice some other parameters, like lush bass or really filled out mids), it is natural for me to gravitate to a sector of audiophile headphones that is built by companies that have their roots in pro headphones. I am talking about Sennheisser and Beyerdynamic. And pretty much all those headphones are high impedance.
  
 At least, that is my way of rationalizing my irrational choices


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *olek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> There are manufacturer's references online that it has JRC NJM2114 and TI NE5532 op-amps in the audio path.
> Also, its previous incarnation, dv-ra 1000hd, was known to be full of budget opamps and some people were upgrading them (not nearly as easy as upgrading H10).
> I have to admit, I just assume that headphone amp is built on NE5532, but I could be very wrong. It sounds good, no matter what it is in it.


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot for the very kind and valuable reply
 i have nothing in general against op-amps.  One of the best line preamp around, the MBL 6010, uses opamps.  And it is not only good ... is truly excellent.
 So maybe it is just a matter of correct design and construction.
  


> As for my 'high impedance HP camp' comment... Let me explain my twisted line of thought...
> The way I see it, medium-to-high quality headphones those days fall in one of 2 categories: either high current planars, or high impedance dynamic.
> Of course, there are some headphones outside of those camps, like electrostatics, or those Fostex 600/900, but they are in minority, often with their own peculiarities.
> Given that I strive for *a very neutral sound with high transparency *(and willing to sacrifice some other parameters, like lush bass or really filled out mids),
> ...


 
  
 thanks again for the interesting elaboration. 
 For me impedance selection is mainly driven by the amp, given that i select the amp 1st of course (not said).
 Some amps have a relatively high Z out so they need high Z headphones to work properly.
 It is a little like with amp and speakers.  Personally i tend to avoid using a very low Z out amp with a 600 ohm HP.
 I am afraid to get a too dry and flat sound.
 But with a 30 ohm HP i cannot use a 100 ohm Z out amp for sure .. the bass will be all over my ears ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 if my words are confused i have been very clear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks a lot again
 Regards,  gino


----------



## Feta

Hi everybody,
 I own headphones Hifiman HE-400i, amplifier gustard H10 and Asus essence st (with 2xLME49720NA and 1xLM6172IN) as a DAC. I would like improve sound of this group and my first idea is exchange op amps. 
  
 1) Could you recommend me second or third best of combination of op amps for H10. Burson V5 or OPA627 seem to me too expensive. 
 I read about these combinations:
 - AD797ANZ/BRZ with AD823NA
 - AD797ANZ/BRZ with LME49720HA
 - AD797BRZ with LT1364
 - AD797BRZ with LT1489 (mouser.com and farell.com don't offer LT1489, I am from Czech republic (Europe))
 You can suggest an another combination.
  
 2) Will you suggest change op amps in sound card asus essence st too, if yes which? I don't know, if anybody has experience with this card or combination with H10.
  
 3) Have you used LME49720HA with a heatsink and have you put LME49720HA directly to DIP8? I will be pleased for any recommendation.
  
 4) I read that most of you prefer AD797BRZ instead AD797ANZ. Is the difference easily recognizable? 
 I have a bad experience with fake op amps, which I bought on ebay and my skill with solder is weak. Thats reason why I would prefer AD797ANZ (DIP8).
  
 I will be glad for every reaction 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I am sorry for my bad english.
  
 Thanks


----------



## Kozic

feta said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I own headphones Hifiman HE-400i, amplifier gustard H10 and Asus essence st (with 2xLME49720NA and 1xLM6172IN) as a DAC. I would like improve sound of this group and my first idea is exchange op amps.
> 
> ...


I went with the 797brz/823
http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2030
http://www.mouser.com/Search/m_ProductDetail.aspx?Analog-Devices%2fAD823ARZ%2f&qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9Q1JI0Mo%2ftXvK0A80O21a
They have a smoother bass and more air in the treble over stock slightly better soundstage and transparency too. IMO that is.


----------



## wwmhf

kozic said:


> I went with the 797brz/823
> http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2030
> http://www.mouser.com/Search/m_ProductDetail.aspx?Analog-Devices%2fAD823ARZ%2f&qs=sGAEpiMZZMv9Q1JI0Mo%2ftXvK0A80O21a
> They have a smoother bass and more air in the treble over stock slightly better soundstage and transparency too. IMO that is.


 
 Similar to the configurations in your post, I have tried the following:
  
 - AD797ANZ with AD823NA

 - AD797ANZ with LME49720HA

 - AD797ANZ with LT1364
  
 I think I can rank these configurations as follows: 
  
 AD797ANZ with LME49720HA >= AD797ANZ with LT1364 > AD797ANZ with AD823NA
  
 The first two are close. However, for my lower Z headphones (I do not have HE-400i, but I have Philips X2, HD650, and K7XX), AD797ANZ can be easily eclipsed by better single channel opamps such Burson's single or even opa627


----------



## Feta

Thank you Kozic and wwmhf for answer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I finally succumbed and I ordered V5 single 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The price of V5 singles is not too much different from OPA627BP. 
  
 Now I have a problem, which duals should I  chose for combination with Burson V5 singles?
 - LME49720HA
 - LT1364
 ...
  
 I don't want to spend money for V5 duals and OPA627, I am surprised, that I ordered V5 singles.
     
 I will be glad for every reaction.
  
 Thanks


----------



## mourip

I just received an H10. It sounds really great with my Spirit Labs (Franken-Grado) 32 ohm phones. Very clear and dynamic.
  
 One issue. It has some pretty pronounced transformer hum coming from the case.
  
 The audio output is extremely clean/black with no hum but I can easily hear the case hum from several feet away.
  
 Is this common with the Gustard?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## FallenAngel

One question, how does it compare to the M^3? The design looks incredibly similar, but without an active ground.


----------



## wwmhf

mourip said:


> I just received an H10. It sounds really great with my Spirit Labs (Franken-Grado) 32 ohm phones. Very clear and dynamic.
> 
> One issue. It has some pretty pronounced transformer hum coming from the case.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If I remember it correctly, you seem to be the first one to report this kind of minor issue here.


----------



## mourip

Glad to hear that it is not common.
  
 Do you know the difference between major and minor surgery?
  
 It's minor when someone else has it.
  
 Thanks...


----------



## sunneebear

mourip said:


> I just received an H10. It sounds really great with my Spirit Labs (Franken-Grado) 32 ohm phones. Very clear and dynamic.
> 
> One issue. It has some pretty pronounced transformer hum coming from the case.
> 
> ...



Bad transformer or wrong voltage. Need to check it asap.


----------



## olek

mourip said:


> Glad to hear that it is not common.
> 
> Do you know the difference between major and minor surgery?
> 
> ...


 
 Love your joke, thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 As for humming, other than poor chap that received his 220V H10 actually configured for 120V (ouch), nobody else ever mentioned humming.
 I know that mine was always quiet as a mouse - not a trace of vibration of any kind from it. I think you are likely going to have to deal with exchange. I know, it stinks.


----------



## mandrake50

olek said:


> Love your joke, thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I can't tell whether mine is turned on or not. Neither audible noise nor case vibration is evident. I just tried putting my ear directly on the top of the case... really, nothing. It surprised me, in fact.


----------



## mourip

olek said:


> Love your joke, thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the helpful reply. I bought it used and so I am pretty sure it is set for the right voltage but I can check.


----------



## tvnosaint

Contact the seller.


----------



## mourip

Thanks. I did that first and am waiting to hear back.
  
 Does anyone have Gustard customer support contact info?


----------



## mourip

I got in touch with Tina from SHENZHEN AUDIO. She is asking the factory about the issue. I told her that I bought the amp used but she is still helping me. Very nice service from them.
  
 The seller said that he noticed the noise also but it did not bother him since the amp sounds so good.
  
 I guess that the ball is in my court now. It is a wonderful sounding amp and a bargain at the $200 I paid so I may just live with the buzz. It is only a physical chassis buzz and the audio through the phones is silent.
  
 Oh well...
  
 Thanks to those who offered suggestions.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi ! a crazy DIY idea. Single new mains transformer outside the box, like some Schiit amps and this one.
  
http://img04.taobaocdn.com/bao/uploaded/i4/18102019350595033/T1.UQMXalgXXXXXXXX_!!0-item_pic.jpg
  
 This will keep vibrations and emi far from the circuits. 
 If you use a EI trype it will offer also better suppresion of the mains noise. 
 I nice 60-100VA should be very good.
 It is also a reversible mod.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## mourip

ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! a crazy DIY idea. Single new mains transformer outside the box, like some Schiit amps and this one.
> 
> http://img04.taobaocdn.com/bao/uploaded/i4/18102019350595033/T1.UQMXalgXXXXXXXX_!!0-item_pic.jpg
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good idea. I have used outboard transformers in the past for DIY mods. I might try to add some dampening under the transformer casings first.
  
 Oddly if I take the cover off most of the buzzing is gone. The cover must act as a sounding board for transmitting\increasing the vibration.


----------



## ginetto61

mourip said:


> Good idea. I have used outboard transformers in the past for DIY mods. I might try to add some dampening under the transformer casings first.
> *Oddly if I take the cover off most of the buzzing is gone.* The cover must act as a sounding board for transmitting\increasing the vibration.


 
  
 Hi !  well then try: 

some weight on the cover to absorb its vibes.   
to decouple the cover from the chassis.  Or
to put some pads on the transformers.  I think they sell pads with one sticky side that you can cut of the shape you want. 
 Good luck !
 Bye, gino


----------



## mourip

I put a Mapleshade brass weight on the chassis and it helped. Oddly when I first turned it on there was less buzz than yesterday. I am starting to think that my AC has a bit of DC in it...
  
 Thanks for all of the suggestions. Sorry to divert the thread!


----------



## swannie007

"Dirty" AC circuits can create harmonics that can manifest themselves in odd, and sometimes destructive, ways. Perhaps this might be the case here. AC filters could help but may be expensive. If you can, take your amp to another location(friend/family) and plug it in there and see if it still vibrates. If it doesn't vibrate, then your AC supply is the problem, if it still vibrates then obviously your problem is elsewhere. Just m 2c worth. Cheers.


----------



## olek

mourip said:


> Good idea. I have used outboard transformers in the past for DIY mods. I might try to add some dampening under the transformer casings first.
> 
> *Oddly if I take the cover off most of the buzzing is gone.* The cover must act as a sounding board for transmitting\increasing the vibration.


 
  
 Try not tightening front/side screws all the way upon reassembly, leave them 1 or 2 turns loose.
 I find that on my H10 last couple turns are causing slight bending of the casework that can cause, for example, volume control to bind a little. Leaving strategic screw or 2 a tiny bit loose fixes that (they are still under tension there and will not vibrate free).
  
 Chances of this helping your problem are like, 10%, but hey, it is free and easy to try!


----------



## mourip

olek said:


> Try not tightening front/side screws all the way upon reassembly, leave them 1 or 2 turns loose.
> I find that on my H10 last couple turns are causing slight bending of the casework that can cause, for example, volume control to bind a little. Leaving strategic screw or 2 a tiny bit loose fixes that (they are still under tension there and will not vibrate free).
> 
> Chances of this helping your problem are like, 10%, but hey, it is free and easy to try!


 
 I like cheap and easy!
  
 The brass weight has taken the buzz down to a very low level but I will also try the screws.
  
 I am pretty sure that I have some DC om my mains and so will probably look in to some sort of filter. Evidently toroidal transformer are the most suseptible and the H10 has two. AVA makes something called a HumBuster. Might try that...


----------



## willowbrook

I have a thermal metal extension material that I have received from Burson, but unfortunately I've sold my H10. It is still wrapped in original wrap, unopened. If anyone wants them, shoot me a PM. Just pay for the shipping fee and Paypal (if you wish not to gift).


----------



## MLegend

Why not send it to the person you sold it to?


----------



## mandrake50

willowbrook said:


> I have a thermal metal extension material that I have received from Burson, but unfortunately I've sold my H10. It is still wrapped in original wrap, unopened. If anyone wants them, shoot me a PM. Just pay for the shipping fee and Paypal (if you wish not to gift).


 

 Man, you move fast! Did you already dump the 560 too?
  
 What will you be using for an amp?


----------



## mandrake50

I just thought I should mention this. I got the heat sink extension today and decided to install it. While I was in there I checked the 4 Burson V5 opamps. They all looked fine. I expected that because they have produced no audible problems, but I was relieved to not see any swelling, glue weeping, or cases being displaced upwards. I have at minimum 300+ hours on them. While I was at it I figured I would check the gain settings. All of this time I thought that I was running at the 0 gain setting. This was not the case. I had +6 set. It likely has been there since I installed the Bursons.
  
 BTW, I was a real early adopter of the V5s. They sent me a notice that they would be available soon, and I placed the order right then.
 There were no 17 volt tested units back then. Mine seem to be quite happy running with the +6 DB gain setting.
  
 Just a data point for people wondering about the latest Burson recommendation.


----------



## willowbrook

mlegend said:


> Why not send it to the person you sold it to?


 
 Sadly, I got the package after I sold it to. He doesn't want it.


----------



## willowbrook

mandrake50 said:


> Man, you move fast! Did you already dump the 560 too?
> 
> What will you be using for an amp?


 
 Sure did ^^ High interest, but low secondhand available = super fast sell at a decent price. Sold the HE-560 too. I'll probably be just lurking around different places and stay off buying anything for a while. I need a DAC/amp, portable preferred in replacement for my IEM. I was thinking micro idsd and chord mojo. Used micro idsd here sells for like 250~300 USD, so I think I am going to go for that.


----------



## ClintonL

Hey guys, trying to decide between a h10 or valhalla 2. Has anyone tried both? I prefer a warmish sound. Cheers


----------



## crazychile

clintonl said:


> Hey guys, trying to decide between a h10 or valhalla 2. Has anyone tried both? I prefer a warmish sound. Cheers


 

 With which headphones? The H10 may be more flexible as a one-amp-does-all with low and high impedance headphones, but if you're using high impedance exclusively, the Valhalla is tough to beat for the money.


----------



## mourip

crazychile said:


> With which headphones? The H10 may be more flexible as a one-amp-does-all with low and high impedance headphones, but if you're using high impedance exclusively, the Valhalla is tough to beat for the money.


 
  
 My stock Gustard H10 sounds absolutely great with my 32ohm Spirit Labs (franken-grados) but does not do as well with my 300ohm Senn HD650's as my OTL SinglePower Extreme does.


----------



## ClintonL

Using just a pair of hd800's.


----------



## auvgeek

If you like the cans and have no interest in switching to planars, I think you can do better than the H10. Valhalla 2 or Crack + speedball or (if you want to spend substantially more) there's an HDVA 600 for sale in the FS/FT forums.


----------



## wwmhf

clintonl said:


> Hey guys, trying to decide between a h10 or valhalla 2. Has anyone tried both? I prefer a warmish sound. Cheers


 
  
 For me, high impedance phones such as T1 and HD800, HD650 sound better when used with tube amps such Valhalla 2 and Little Dot IV SE than HD10


----------



## MachineGunz

Hi, I would really appreciate the help from you guys 
  
 I currently have the He400i and an Odac.
 I am looking for an amp, A lot of people over at the He400i thread recommended the H10 as an amplifier.
  
 There is a guy that is selling the H10 with a full boat H10 + Burson V5, After going through the last 10 pages here I noticed that a lot of V5's broke down.
  
 If I do end up buying the amp from the guy the last thing I want is a complete fail and a huge loss of money. I am really afraid to mess with my equipment and change stuff.
  
 Can someone please describe the sound signature I will get with the H10 + He400i's?
  
 I upgraded to the 400i's after having an Ath AD900X and M50x.
  
 I feel (after 2 weeks with the 400i's) that they closer to the M50x than the 900x, As in both the 400i's and the M50x the sound is more in your face and in the middle of the head compared to the 900x which are more laid back and the sound goes out from your head instead of in it/ towards it (It's too complicated for me  DAMN EARS!!!!!!)
  
 Something is missing in my 400i's, I don't know what, but something small is not there, Maybe a little bit more soundstage?
  
 Will the H10 improve the soundstage? the amount of bass? *What will change?*


----------



## olek

@MachineGunz I think I understand what you are trying to say.
  
 I owned (and used heavily) AD900 for a long time, and absolutely adored them (as I understand, AD900x are similar). You will NOT get 400i to sound like an improved version of AD900, they are very different phones.
 AD900 had very wide soundstage, abnormally so. It was artificially wide. In some cases, it worked out (listening to symphonies), in some, not so much.
 They also had some inherent strong grain, were light on bass (good quality, but light), and heavy on treble. I enjoyed them very much, but eventually moved on because grainy treble was giving me headache and achy ears after long sessions.
  
 400i are known for their fairly 'closed' and 'narrow' soundstage - they are almost like closed headphones in that respect (hell, my closed T70 have better soundstage than 400i).
 What you gain in exchange (with good amplification) is very smooth 'creamy' sound that is still fun and aggresive - there is not much grain to speak of. Also, bass is very nice, and treble is much better balanced.
 Plus amount of details is higher. Also, bass and midrange have that characteristic 'planar' euphoric sound, most people like it. Ah, and they are amazing for long sessions - very low fatigue.
  
 Again, 400i is not in same family of sound as AD900. If you are looking for improved version of AD900 (I was looking for that for a long time), DT880 or T70 are more like it.
  
 Sorry if this is bad news for you, just want you to have realistic expectations. 400i are very good headphones, but they do not sound like AD900 at all.
  
 P.S. I heard M50x briefly on friend's rig. Overpowering but flabby bass did not do it for me (but admittedly I am very sensitive to overdone bass, more than most). 400i are much more tasteful and detailed down there when amplified well - with H10, for example.
 Ah, also, find out if Bursons lifetime warranty is transferable. If it is not, I would think twice given their failure rate in H10.


----------



## willowbrook

For me full burson H10 was all about making the amp more resolving and and most importantly that thick body sound. Without it, it just makes the headphones sound thin. Especially in the mid-bass, mids area gained body which depending on what headphones you have, makes it sound more balanced throughout. If you are looking for that warmth and body, it's a great choice.


----------



## auvgeek

Ask if the Bursons are the 17V version. Run the amp at +6 gain and you'll probably have no issues.
  
 Grill mod on the HiFiMan cans definitely improves the soundstage.


----------



## willowbrook

The singes are no problem at whatever gain. The duals however are stable at +6 or +12.


----------



## MachineGunz

olek said:


> @MachineGunz I think I understand what you are trying to say.
> 
> I owned (and used heavily) AD900 for a long time, and absolutely adored them (as I understand, AD900x are similar). You will NOT get 400i to sound like an improved version of AD900, they are very different phones.
> AD900 had very wide soundstage, abnormally so. It was artificially wide. In some cases, it worked out (listening to symphonies), in some, not so much.
> ...


 
  
 Thank you for your reply!
  
 You HELPED me a lot! I now begin to understand how the 400i's sound.
  
 I think your explanation on the AD900 is perfect!
  
 From what I remember reading on the AD900 VS THE AD900X is that the treble on the 900X's is smoothed out, They never hurt my ears and the treble sounded incredibel
  
 What I disliked about them was the lack of bass and impact. Also, just like you pointed out they had this grain that was really annoying and unbearable for me.
  
 I wanted the upgrade to sound different from the 900X and I am happy that the 400i's are different, I can experience different sound signatures.
  
 I just wanted to widen-up the soundstage a little bit, but if it can't really be done I am fine with it.
  
 I can definitely see what you mean by artificial soundstage, Some songs really didn't soun aggressive or engaging as I would have liked them to be.
  
 The 900X have something magical about them, They sound "magical ???? What is that supposed to mean pffffff".
 I don't know how to describe it, They have airiness that is magical, Like a fairy.
  
 Now about the 400i's, Your comment and explanations on their sound is amazing.
  
 That EUPHORIC EUPHORIC HOLY MOLY SOUND is indeed so fun to listen to. I want to feel it in every song that I hear.
  
 Hopefully that is the last question I will ask you:
  
 What will be the sound difference with the H10?
  
  
  


willowbrook said:


> For me full burson H10 was all about making the amp more resolving and and most importantly that thick body sound. Without it, it just makes the headphones sound thin. Especially in the mid-bass, mids area gained body which depending on what headphones you have, makes it sound more balanced throughout. If you are looking for that warmth and body, it's a great choice.


 
 Thanks for the answer.
  
 I am not sure what I am looking for, Can you please describe the sound?


auvgeek said:


> Ask if the Bursons are the 17V version. Run the amp at +6 gain and you'll probably have no issues.
> 
> Grill mod on the HiFiMan cans definitely improves the soundstage.


 
 Thank you for your reply!
  
 They are the 17V version. I currently have an ELE DAC + AMP that cost like 15$-20$. It has more than enough power to drive the 400i's but they sound bad with it compared to the Odac.
  
 Won't the +6 gain be too sensitive?


----------



## auvgeek

machinegunz said:


> They are the 17V version. I currently have an ELE DAC + AMP that cost like 15$-20$. It has more than enough power to drive the 400i's but they sound bad with it compared to the Odac.
> Won't the +6 gain be too sensitive?


 
 I don't know about the 400i, but on the 560 +6 gain still gives me plenty of volume control, and I listen at relatively low volumes. More importantly, Burson recommends +6 to keep the amp running cooler and protect their opamps.
  
 Again, removing the grills on the 400i will definitely improve the soundstage. Plenty of tutorials on here.


----------



## snellemin

I demo'ed the 400I with the Gustard and Burson's. Good stuff for sure.


----------



## FaezFarhan

Guys, for single-ended use with the AKG K7XX, and maybe the Fostex TH-X00 in 4 months time, is this better than the Matrix M-Stage HPA-3?


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

Anybody gone and ordered the newer V5i's?
 Was just recommended them by Dennis from Burson as I was looking for an opamp upgrade on a budget (these seem to be quite a bit cheaper).
 Looks like the whole package has been shrunk down in size and now the surround of the opamps are metal to allow passive heat dissipation.
 According to Burson they're rated for +-16V so should be good to go with the H10.
 Not to mention their max operating ambient temperature is up 10 degrees C from the V5's.
  
 Lazy link here: http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5i/


----------



## MrChowder

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> Anybody gone and ordered the newer V5i's?
> Was just recommended them by Dennis from Burson as I was looking for an opamp upgrade on a budget (these seem to be quite a bit cheaper).
> Looks like the whole package has been shrunk down in size and now the surround of the opamps are metal to allow passive heat dissipation.
> According to Burson they're rated for +-16V so should be good to go with the H10.
> ...


 
 Wow! These look great. Good for Burson.


----------



## tommo21

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> Anybody gone and ordered the newer V5i's?
> Was just recommended them by Dennis from Burson as I was looking for an opamp upgrade on a budget (these seem to be quite a bit cheaper).
> Looks like the whole package has been shrunk down in size and now the surround of the opamps are metal to allow passive heat dissipation.
> According to Burson they're rated for +-16V so should be good to go with the H10.
> ...


 

 Didn't Burson mention that they measured up to +-17V on the H10? Then these are no good as well.
  
 I returned my duals over a month ago now, and still haven't gotten them back....might be they've been working on these instead. I don't think I dare to put the duals back into the H10 anyway. The 49720ha works brilliantly.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

[deleted]
  
 Sorry, misread the post above.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

tommo21 said:


> Didn't Burson mention that they measured up to +-17V on the H10? Then these are no good as well.
> 
> I returned my duals over a month ago now, and still haven't gotten them back....might be they've been working on these instead. I don't think I dare to put the duals back into the H10 anyway. The 49720ha works brilliantly.


 
  
 I thought they measured up to 15V with the H10's. But they did then later say we should run with only +6 or +12 gain only to ensure no problems with the duals.


----------



## tvnosaint

I read the same. 17v .


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

tvnosaint said:


> I read the same. 17v .


 
  
 Hmmm.
 Strange that they'd recommend 16V ones then if that's what they'd measured.
 Will enquire further regarding this and see what they have to say.


----------



## mourip

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> Hmmm.
> Strange that they'd recommend 16V ones then if that's what they'd measured.
> Will enquire further regarding this and see what they have to say.


 
 I got this back from Burson...
  
 "Yes, the V5i is 100% compatible with the H10.  Our fully discrete V5 sometimes has problems with the heat level inside the H10, depending on the user habits.  The V5i has no problems with heat at all. : ) 
 Best regards,
 Alex"


----------



## tommo21

mourip said:


> I got this back from Burson...
> 
> "Yes, the V5i is 100% compatible with the H10.  Our fully discrete V5 sometimes has problems with the heat level inside the H10, depending on the user habits.  The V5i has no problems with heat at all. : )
> Best regards,
> Alex"


 
 I've also been in contact with them regarding my missing V5 duals. They're shipping me these V5i's instead. It's important to notice that these are hybrid opamps and not fully discrete as the original V5's. But they will have the same sound dna as they write on their page. I'm actually getting 4 dual V5i's as they are cheaper than the V5's, and I also want to try them out in my dac.


----------



## willowbrook

Curious to see how the sound compares with the original v5


----------



## bwcgrx

Well heck these new V5i op amps became available just about a week after I ordered a complete V5 set for my H10.  I'd have probably gone with the new ones just to save a bit of coin.
  
 Oh well I'm sure the fully discrete V5's will be quite nice and I'm already committed anyway.  Just wish they would get here to the states a bit sooner.


----------



## mourip

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> Anybody gone and ordered the newer V5i's?
> 
> Lazy link here: http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5i/


 
  
 I just ordered a pair of singles for my H10. Should be here in a week or so.
  
 I am using the stock opamps right now so I will not be able to compare them to the other V5's.


----------



## desik

I ordered singles + duals V5i. Should arrive in <=2 weeks.


----------



## mourip

Is there a schematic floating around for the H10? I have read most of this thread and googled but have not seen one.
  
 Just curious...


----------



## olek

No, there is no schematic for H10 available.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

mourip said:


> I just ordered a pair of singles for my H10. Should be here in a week or so.
> 
> I am using the stock opamps right now so I will not be able to compare them to the other V5's.


 

 I just ordered a pair of singles and duals. Interested in your thoughts on how significant the difference is with just singles.
 What headphones do your run out of your H10?


----------



## mourip

l1ghtm4st3r said:


> I just ordered a pair of singles and duals. Interested in your thoughts on how significant the difference is with just singles.
> What headphones do your run out of your H10?


 
  
 I have been using a pair of Spirit Labs XVI's. These are Franken-Grados from Italy. They seem to pair really well with the stock H10 I got a few weeks ago. I actually also have another H10 coming so that I can do headphone listening through my speaker system in our den. The second H10 will come with some AD797ANZ opamps in it.
  
 I also have a pair of HD650's and some Grado RS1e's. The 650's were a bit of a disappointment. I think that they like voltage swing for their high impedance and the H10 is good at driving current. The 650's sound good with my old OTL SinglePower tube amp.


----------



## olek

mourip said:


> ...
> I also have a pair of HD650's and some Grado RS1e's. The 650's were a bit of a disappointment. I think that they like voltage swing for their high impedance and the H10 is good at driving current. The 650's sound good with my old OTL SinglePower tube amp.


 
  
 I think you are right, H10 is best for headphones that are hungry for current. Also, HD650 are very dark and veiled, and stock H10 is a bit dark and soft/veiled, and too much of a good thing is not a good thing. For that reason I sold my HD650 some time ago and replaced them with HD600, and now that my main amp has razor-sharp character I sometimes think that I should have stayed with 650.
  
 Ahoy mateys, I also want to use this opportunity to announce that my H10 has sailed away, I am no longer an active member of the GusStarD H10 ship crew, and sadly, it is time for me to walk the gangway! (please, no plank).
 It was fun journey and I am very grateful to everyone here for being an awesome team, and of course, special thanks to Captain Guinea Pig!


----------



## canthearyou

I received my Sparkoslabs dual channel op-amps for my Matrix HPA-3B today. I gave them a quick listen in my H10. These things are insanely clear! If my H10 didn't just sell today I would've bought a pair of singles and probably kept it. I think you guys should give them a listen.

I bet a combo of the Sparkos duals and Burson singles would be amazing! The crystal clarity of the Sparkos and the musicality of the Bursons.


----------



## MLegend

olek said:


> I think you are right, H10 is best for headphones that are hungry for current. Also, HD650 are very dark and veiled, and stock H10 is a bit dark and soft/veiled, and too much of a good thing is not a good thing. For that reason I sold my HD650 some time ago and replaced them with HD600, and now that my main amp has razor-sharp character I sometimes think that I should have stayed with 650.
> 
> Ahoy mateys, I also want to use this opportunity to announce that my H10 has sailed away, I am no longer an active member of the GusStarD H10 ship crew, and sadly, it is time for me to walk the gangway! (please, no plank).
> It was fun journey and I am very grateful to everyone here for being an awesome team, and of course, special thanks to Captain Guinea Pig!


 
 Thank you for all of your input in this thread. You have been very helpful. I wish you well on the rest of your audio journey. To be honest i'm about to do the same thing with my H10.


----------



## mourip

olek said:


> I think you are right, H10 is best for headphones that are hungry for current. Also, HD650 are very dark and veiled, and stock H10 is a bit dark and soft/veiled, and too much of a good thing is not a good thing. For that reason I sold my HD650 some time ago and replaced them with HD600, and now that my main amp has razor-sharp character I sometimes think that I should have stayed with 650.
> 
> Ahoy mateys, I also want to use this opportunity to announce that my H10 has sailed away, I am no longer an active member of the GusStarD H10 ship crew, and sadly, it is time for me to walk the gangway! (please, no plank).
> It was fun journey and I am very grateful to everyone here for being an awesome team, and of course, special thanks to Captain Guinea Pig!


 
  
 Looking forward to getting your H10 today. Thanks!
  
 My Grado based Spirits work well with the H10 as Grado drivers are low impedance are certainly not dark


----------



## mourip

mlegend said:


> Thank you for all of your input in this thread. You have been very helpful. I wish you well on the rest of your audio journey. To be honest i'm about to do the same thing with my H10.


 
  
 What are you replacing it with?


----------



## MLegend

Headroom Desktop Balanced Headphone amp. I've had both for quite a while now and the DBHA is a better match for my 650s.


----------



## Feta

H10 is on massdrop again (9h left) - https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10


----------



## mourip

I ordered some of the new Burson opamps on the 11th. I live in the US.
  
 Any idea how long it takes them to ship here?


----------



## zilch0md

wwmhf said:


> Heatsinks on Burson's opamps seem not to be very effective because the heat inside the H10 might be beyond the tolerance of Bursons. Reducing the heat of the whole H10 seems to be more critical.


 
  


walderstorn said:


> I was thinking of adding those copper gpu heatinks to the H10 itself, i dont know if i still have them or they made the trash-voyage years ago ill have to look, they werent big and they are well built. If i had one of those infrared thermometers that would be helpful.


 
  
 For $27 plus shipping costs, you could start by just setting two of these 300mm x 120mm aluminum heat sinks on top of the H10 case, side by side - without attaching them or using any thermal cement:
  

  
  
 http://www.lck-led.com/aluminum-heatsink-15x3w-40x1w-300x120x20mm-black-p-946.html
  
 You would be surprised how effective this can be. I routinely use a small heat sink placed _underneath_ my CEntrance DACport - which can get quite warm, running in Class A.  
  

  
 You would think that with the fins down against the table, nothing could be accomplished. No doubt, it would be more effective if the heat sink was on top of the heat source, but this arrangement works extremely well, pulling down the temperature of the DACport so much, it's obvious just by touching it.  The only trick is to make sure the two flat surfaces are in close contact with each other.
  
 So, putting a large heat sink on top of the H10 case, seems like a great idea to me.
  
 The H10 has a footprint of 385mm x 280mm (15-3/8 in. x 11 in.).  The bigger the heat sink, the better.
  





  
 Mike


----------



## tretneo

Hi all,
  
 I've been away for a while (last active around the time the SS5 OpAmps were announced) and I'm intrigued by all the overheating talk. I was tempted to pick them up (back then) but stuck with my full boat SS4 OpAmps, they're pretty great in my opinion. Has anyone discussed why the SS5s are so sensitive to the H10 heat while the SS4s seem to handle it fine?
  
 - tret


----------



## MLegend

If anyone is looking to buy an H10 with full burson V5s pm me. Selling mine.


----------



## canthearyou

tretneo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been away for a while (last active around the time the SS5 OpAmps were announced) and I'm intrigued by all the overheating talk. I was tempted to pick them up (back then) but stuck with my full boat SS4 OpAmps, they're pretty great in my opinion. Has anyone discussed why the SS5s are so sensitive to the H10 heat while the SS4s seem to handle it fine?
> 
> - tret




It's not necessarily the temp, but the voltage rating. The V4 are rated for 20v, the v5 is rated 17v. The H10 is supplying 18v.


----------



## bwcgrx

tretneo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been away for a while (last active around the time the SS5 OpAmps were announced) and I'm intrigued by all the overheating talk. I was tempted to pick them up (back then) but stuck with my full boat SS4 OpAmps, they're pretty great in my opinion. Has anyone discussed why the SS5s are so sensitive to the H10 heat while the SS4s seem to handle it fine?
> 
> - tret


 
  
  


canthearyou said:


> It's not necessarily the temp, but the voltage rating. The V4 are rated for 20v, the v5 is rated 17v. The H10 is supplying 18v.


 
  
  
 I just received my full set of SS v5 Op-Amps last week with the heatsink provided by SS/Burson.  They sound fantastic and really open up the sound of the H10 however after only about ten hours the dual V5 in the right channel started to produce a crackling and popping noise which just became worse.  I swapped the dual V5s and the crackling and popping moved to the left side.  I've gone back to stock duals and for the time being the single V5s are behaving.  Still sounds good but not quite as lush and transparent as it was with the addition of the duals. Oh and for the record I run my H10 at +6 gain only so the issues with these Op-Amps failing at lower gain settings should not be an issue in my case.
  
 I've contacted Burson regarding the issue but I've no heard back yet.  No doubt they will take care of the problem Op-Amp.
  
 I'd say given the situation you may want to consider sticking with the V4s unless you really think the sound improvement is worth the potential risk.


----------



## tretneo

canthearyou said:


> It's not necessarily the temp, but the voltage rating. The V4 are rated for 20v, the v5 is rated 17v. The H10 is supplying 18v.


 
  
  
 Ah, that makes sense. Seems like a pretty big oversight, bummer. Perhaps they could/should release an updated version capable of handling the 18v seeing as how they get a lot of love from the H10 crowd. Anyway, thanks for the info.
  
  


bwcgrx said:


> I'd say given the situation you may want to consider sticking with the V4s unless you really think the sound improvement is worth the potential risk.


 
  
 This is my plan unless I see some kind of solid solution from the folks at Burson.


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

I'm curious to know what is the best gain setting on the H10 to use with the 560s.


----------



## tretneo

zekeadebayo said:


> I'm curious to know what is the best gain setting on the H10 to use with the 560s.


 
  
 I've been on +6 w/ my HE-560s ever since I got my H10. Can't recall exactly by whom but this is the recommendation I was given last summer and have no complaints.


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

Does anyone know where I can find drivers for the X12? I'm on Windows 10.


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

tretneo said:


> I've been on +6 w/ my HE-560s ever since I got my H10. Can't recall exactly by whom but this is the recommendation I was given last summer and have no complaints.


 
 Thanks for the reply, it's much appreciated.


----------



## LiFan

*ZekeAdebayo*
  
 Look at this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/789010/gustard-dac-x12-owners


----------



## mourip

tretneo said:


> Ah, that makes sense. Seems like a pretty big oversight, bummer. Perhaps they could/should release an updated version capable of handling the 18v seeing as how they get a lot of love from the H10 crowd. Anyway, thanks for the info.
> 
> This is my plan unless I see some kind of solid solution from the folks at Burson.


 
  
 I ordered a pair of the new 5Vi-s (singles) to give them a try in my H10. They arrived yesterday but unfortunately they only sent one! A second one is on the way.
  
 When I contacted them originally they assured me that these new ones have no problems with the H10 as with their other modules. They are not discrete opamps however. They have an IC opamp housed with some surrounding surface mount components and encased in a metal cover that probably both shields and doubles as a heatsink. Being an IC does not necessarily mean that they will not sound as good ...but we shall see. I wonder what the IC opamp is?


----------



## MachineGunz

How do you think the Nuforce HA-200 is compared to the H10?
  
 I want to use the HA-200 with the HE400i's.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

mourip said:


> I ordered a pair of the new 5Vi-s (singles) to give them a try in my H10. They arrived yesterday but unfortunately they only sent one! A second one is on the way.
> 
> When I contacted them originally they assured me that these new ones have no problems with the H10 as with their other modules. They are not discrete opamps however. They have an IC opamp housed with some surrounding surface mount components and encased in a metal cover that probably both shields and doubles as a heatsink. Being an IC does not necessarily mean that they will not sound as good ...but we shall see. I wonder what the IC opamp is?


 
 Did you get a dispatch email when they sent yours? I haven't received anything from them since I ordered.


----------



## mourip

They did not send 


l1ghtm4st3r said:


> Did you get a dispatch email when they sent yours? I haven't received anything from them since I ordered.


 
  
 They did not send a shipping email when I first ordered or when they said they would send the second opamp. They did reply promptly to my email letting them know of the error but I did communicate via PayPal so that might have motivated them.
  
 To their credit they took my word for the missing part....


----------



## jazzwave

I'm using Burson V5 Single for my H10, no heat issue.
 Never run this amp more than 6 hours continues.
  
 Burson opamp contributed big sound improvement for H10, I tried some opamp. I prefer  Burson.
  
 If you want to try, make sure you order the last version of V5 (Single or Dual), V5 first version has some issue
  
  
 regards
 Ronni


----------



## mourip

jazzwave said:


> I'm using Burson V5 Single for my H10, no heat issue.
> Never run this amp more than 6 hours continues.


 
  
 You are talking about the V5 not the newest V5i with the metal can, right?


----------



## mmlogic

My second pair of single V5 just died on me yesterday.
 There's a clicking when the music played for about 2 hours, and then silence.
 Plugged in other OP, everything went back to normal.
  
 and yes, my V5s are the new version, just received them last weekend.
 and I have installed the heat-sink.
  
 So my conclusion is that though Burson V5 probably the best sounding OP amp for H10, but they just don't physically fit for each other.


----------



## zilch0md

mmlogic said:


> My second pair of single V5 just died on me yesterday.
> There's a clicking when the music played for about 2 hours, and then silence.
> Plugged in other OP, everything went back to normal.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Do you use them with the H10 case closed or with the lid off?


----------



## auvgeek

mmlogic said:


> My second pair of single V5 just died on me yesterday.
> There's a clicking when the music played for about 2 hours, and then silence.
> Plugged in other OP, everything went back to normal.
> 
> ...


 

 Did you run at +6 gain, as Burson recommends?


----------



## mmlogic

zilch0md said:


> Do you use them with the H10 case closed or with the lid off?


 

 Closed


----------



## mmlogic

auvgeek said:


> Did you run at +6 gain, as Burson recommends?


 

 Yes, +6 gain.


----------



## Feta

willowbrook said:


> Does that mean it is OK to run -6/-12 with singles only and stock NE5532?


 
  
  


burson audio said:


> Yes, seems this gain setting only affect the dual opamp on the back


 
  
  


burson audio said:


> We did and we found that the at "0" gain and less the dual V5 heat up too much. That is why we recommend the +6 and +12 setting.


 
  
 V5s should not have problem with gain setting.


----------



## zilch0md

I'm still enjoying my V5 Duals in a portable amp, leaving the lid off simply because the V5s are too tall to put the lid back on, but from everything I've heard to date, I think Burson's use of an injectable foam material, surrounding all of the discrete components, in combination with a solid plastic shell, traps all the heat that's generated within.  When the air temperature inside an amp's closed case is greater than ? degrees, the V5 overheats, the sound quality begins to fail and/or the foam and the plastic case begin to melt. Higher supply voltages only increase the internal heat generation of components that are encapsulated within that foam insulation. I suspect the V5 would be far more robust if they would just stop using the injected foam and go back to an open design, like the V4, or at least, stop using the foam and find another way to attach the case to the DIP8 base, having drilled some holes for ventilation. Better still would be an aluminum case, but that would probably double the price.  
  
 Meanwhile, has anyone tried affixing small heatsinks directly to the V5's plastic case (or large heatsinks set atop the H10's case, as I suggested in an earlier post, above)?
  
 If you search for "*VGA RAM heatsink*" or "*Raspberry Pi heatsink*" you can find several that have 12mm x 12mm dimensions (or thereabout) - small enough to affix to the sides or top of the V5 case.  I would sand down the top of the case to make it perfectly flat, before trying to affix a heatsink there.
  
  

 http://www.amazon.com/LinuxFreak-brand-Aluminum-Heatsink-Raspberry/dp/B00A88DVTG
 or
 http://www.amazon.com/Gdstime-Aluminum-Heatsink-Raspberry-Xbox360/dp/B00ZZ9P3QC
  
  

 http://www.amazon.com/Addicore-Raspberry-Heatsink-Aluminum-Sinks/dp/B00HPQGTI4
  
  

 http://www.amazon.com/Adhesive-Aluminum-Heatsink-Cooling-Raspberry/dp/B00TNKBZH0
  
  

 http://www.amazon.com/ENZOTECH-Memory-Ramsink-BMR-C1-Heatsink/dp/B002BWXW6E
  
  

  
 http://www.amazon.com/Arctic-Alumina-Thermal-Adhesive-5g/dp/B0009IQ1BU
  
 Bringing down the temperature of the entire H10 seems like a better idea to me - the whole amp would give you more years of service.
  
 Mike


----------



## mourip

mmlogic said:


> My second pair of single V5 just died on me yesterday.
> There's a clicking when the music played for about 2 hours, and then silence.
> Plugged in other OP, everything went back to normal.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry to put a fine point on it but Burson now has these, the V5i-singles. You are talkng about the V5 with the tall red heatsink, right?


----------



## tretneo

Has anyone actually received the v5i model and tested a v5i full boat? I'm interested to read some opinions and if at all possible comparisons to the SS v4 full boat.


----------



## auvgeek

feta said:


> V5s should not have problem with gain setting.


 

 My bad. I didn't pay attention to duals vs singles. But it sounds like the amp was at +6 anyway.


----------



## mourip

tretneo said:


> Has anyone actually received the v5i model and tested a v5i full boat? I'm interested to read some opinions and if at all possible comparisons to the SS v4 full boat.


 
  
 I ordered a pair of the v5i's but they shorted me one. Still waiting for it. Not a full boat but soon to be a couple of data points.


----------



## jazzwave

mourip said:


> You are talking about the V5 not the newest V5i with the metal can, right?


 
  
 Yes, the red one


----------



## tretneo

mourip said:


> I ordered a pair of the v5i's but they shorted me one. Still waiting for it. Not a full boat but soon to be a couple of data points.


 
  
 What combo will you be running?


----------



## tommo21

I'm gonna try the V5i duals in my H10 tomorrow. Got them in today. They're shipping from Hong Kong, so I'll guess they're made with the production partner they've got there.
  
 They will be tested together with my V5 singles that's still working. I got 4 duals as a replacement for the V5 duals. I'm gonna use the other two in a DAC I got. I also got the heatsink to mount on the V5 singles..


----------



## zilch0md

mourip said:


> Sorry to put a fine point on it but Burson now has these, the V5i-singles. You are talkng about the V5 with the tall red heatsink, right?


 
  
  


jazzwave said:


> Yes, the red one


 
  
 Yes, I was talking about adding small heatsinks to these original, red plastic, V5 cases (which are more like heat traps than heat sinks):
  

 Photo by monoxyde1234
  
 Mike


----------



## zachO

I'm not a Gustard H10 user but I use a EE Minimax Plus and come to this thread to get some information on op-amp rolling as well. You guys aren't the only ones with issues with the Burson's melting. When I discovered that you guys were facing the same issues as myself, I started wondering if it's just a design problem with the Bursons and I have every reason to believe so. I went through 4 replacements, with my last replacement lasting me all but 1 Minute before popping and crackling in one channel. Prompting me to pop the lid to find yet another melted opamp. I eventually got a full refund (Credit to Burson for offering me that option) on my Burson opamps and put that money towards the Sparkos Labs. These just came in the mail today and let me tell you, they just sound wonderful.
  
 Compared to the Bursons, the Sparkos 3602 are more balanced, with a lot more natural presentation of the music. Passages of music i'm familiar with for crossing the line into the hot spot of harshness is now completely relaxed. I found myself anticipating the same hardness in the music, causing my ears to reel back a little but when hit with the immaculate sound the 3602's provide, my brain can't help but feel a little bit confused as I slowly adjust to this new sound, putting a smile on my face. The Sparko's are a lot smoother than the Burson V5's. Instruments and voices of the Sparkos have a lot more solidity about them compared to the Bursons. These are my early impressions of the Sparko's units that have yet to burn-in completely (only have about 1 hour of playback on them so far) so make what you will of this. But I swear I've been so frustrated with the Burson's failing (MELTING) over and over again that I feel the need to let you guys know that there are other offerings such as those from Sparko's that are extremely viable and in my use case, preferable. 
  
 I really have to thank Andrew Sparks of Sparkos Labs for his extremely wonderful customer service, taking time to share his knowledge on op-amp rolling and chit-chatting about other stuff as well. Throughout our conversation, I didn't feel as if he was trying to push me to try his product at all and I appreciate salesmen like that very much. If you're interested in his devices, don't be afraid to contact Andrew with whatever questions you might have. I'm sure he'll afford you the same customer service he so graciously afforded me. 
  
 I am in no way affiliated to Sparkos Labs. I just felt like I could relate to a bunch of you with all the burson opamps failing and what not and felt the need to share my experience with the sparkos 3602.
  
  
  
 Check out the monstrosity.


----------



## monoxyde1234

just received my replacement for my full boat v5 17v. They replaced my opamps with the v5i's plus the heatsink. currently burning-in. We'll see how they stack up with the v5's. I feel these should last now that it has a metal casing.


----------



## zachO

They offered me that option as well and I didn't think it made sense. If I wanted the V5i, I could've opted for the full refund and then bought the V5i's with cash to spare. Was that the same offer they made you?


----------



## tommo21

First impression V5i's duals with V5 singles in the H10:
  
 Unfortunatly I don't remember how the V5 duals sounded, but compared to lm49720ha which I have been using the most, the V5i duals are a bit darker sounding( less treble emphasis), but with more width and depth. I'm gonna guess these also need some burn-in as the rest of Bursons opamps, so this is only impression after getting them in and having them warmed up.
  
 I say at first listen they sound better than the lm49720ha which I found earlier where the next best thing to the V5 duals. So for H10 and since the V5 opamps struggles with the H10 currents, this might be the best "compromise" for this position. But as stated earlier my V5 singles are "melting" as well, so I hope the V5i singles is up to the job when I get them as replacement.


----------



## zilch0md

zacho said:


> I'm not a Gustard H10 user but I use a EE Minimax Plus and come to this thread to get some information on op-amp rolling as well. You guys aren't the only ones with issues with the Burson's melting. When I discovered that you guys were facing the same issues as myself, I started wondering if it's just a design problem with the Bursons and I have every reason to believe so. I went through 4 replacements, *with my last replacement lasting me all but 1 Minute before popping and crackling in one channel. Prompting me to pop the lid to find yet another melted opamp.* I eventually got a full refund (Credit to Burson for offering me that option) on my Burson opamps and put that money towards the Sparkos Labs. These just came in the mail today and let me tell you, they just sound wonderful.
> 
> Compared to the Bursons, the Sparkos 3602 are more balanced, with a lot more natural presentation of the music. Passages of music i'm familiar with for crossing the line into the hot spot of harshness is now completely relaxed. I found myself anticipating the same hardness in the music, causing my ears to reel back a little but when hit with the immaculate sound the 3602's provide, my brain can't help but feel a little bit confused as I slowly adjust to this new sound, putting a smile on my face. The Sparko's are a lot smoother than the Burson V5's. Instruments and voices of the Sparkos have a lot more solidity about them compared to the Bursons. These are my early impressions of the Sparko's units that have yet to burn-in completely (only have about 1 hour of playback on them so far) so make what you will of this. But I swear I've been so frustrated with the Burson's failing (MELTING) over and over again that I feel the need to let you guys know that there are other offerings such as those from Sparko's that are extremely viable and in my use case, preferable.
> 
> ...


 
  
With this damage occurring in only a minute of use, I think it's safe to say that this was a "lemon" or, perhaps, a "habanero."  It evidences an absence of quality control, that it could leave the factory unable to operate for even 60 seconds. 
  
See zachO's clarification in his post, below.
  
 In my limited experience, *only one out of four Burson V5 Duals delivered to me has actually arrived without defects*.
  
 A 75% failure rate, new in the box, combined with great customer service, still translates to a big hassle, *but I so very much love the sound.*
  
 I had incorrectly concluded, awhile back, that the Sparkos op-amps have too large a footprint to fit inside my amp, where the Bursons are already a tight fit, front to rear, even on an extra DIP8 extender to allow clearance above another row of buffer op-amps, just in front of them. A row of gain jumpers sit behind the Bursons.  
  

  
  
 Par for the course, it seems, I've discovered a documentation error in the Burson V5 datasheet:  It gives the dimensions of the V5 as follows:
  
*Width 14.5mm*
  
*Depth 12.4mm*
  
*Height 29mm*
  
 If you're looking at the logo side of the Burson V5, which most people would consider as the _front_ of the op-amp, the *Width is 12.4mm* and the *Depth is 14.5mm*. 
  
 The Width could only be described as 14.5mm, as stated in the Burson datasheet, when looking at either of the two _sides_ of the op-amp, not when looking at the logo (the front) or at the notched rear of the op-amp.
  
 Why am I pointing this out?
  
 Prior to this morning's discovery of Burson's documentation blunder, I had concluded that there is not enough room inside my amp to use the Sparkos SS3602, which, assuming their documentation is accurate (until proven otherwise), has* a Width of 13.75mm *and a* Depth of 15.0mm*.
  

  
 I hadn't even considered trialing the Sparkos op-amps because, having trusted the erroneous Burson documentation instead of measuring the V5s myself, the Sparkos op-amp was allegedly 2.6mm* deeper* than the Burson op-amp - at 15.0mm vs. the Burson's confused figure of 12.4mm.
  
*So, with the realization that the Sparkos SS3602 Dual is actually only 0.5 mm deeper than the Burson V5 Dual,* *I've just ordered a pair of them. *$164.50 for two, including the $5.00 flat shipping fee. Hopefully, they will fit.
  
 Thanks for your recommendation (which encouraged me to revisit the dimension specs.)
  
 Mike


----------



## mourip

tretneo said:


> What combo will you be running?


 
  
 Still working that one out. At first just the new metal can Burson 5Vi singles and the stock NE5532 duals.


----------



## mourip

zilch0md said:


> *So, with the realization that the Sparkos SS3602 Dual is actually only 0.5 mm deeper than the Burson V5 Dual,* *I've just ordered a pair of them. *$164.50 for two, including the $5.00 flat shipping fee. Hopefully, they will fit.


 
  
 Wow! ~$170 for a pair of duals. I only paid $200 for my H10. I think I will wait intently for some glowing reports.
  
 ....not glowing as in Burson "glowing"


----------



## zachO

The photo I took of that melted opamp wasn't the one that lasted a minute. The one that lasted only a minute had only melted a little and the red casing had risen ~2mm. I want to believe that it was a lemon but the failure rate I experienced with the bursons proves otherwise. I had a total of 4 replacements. Yes, I agree that the burson's do sound wonderful, especially with their sparkly treble. But like I mentioned in my post, the musical and balanced presentation of the Sparkos just made me realise how much of an improvement they were over the Burson's. Of course, this ultimately boils down to personal preference and at the end of the day, I'm glad I took the full refund and made the switch to Sparko's. I look forward to hearing your listening impressions with the Sparko's. I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## zilch0md

mourip said:


> Wow! ~$170 for a pair of duals. I only paid $200 for my H10. I think I will wait intently for some glowing reports.
> 
> ....not glowing as in Burson "glowing"


 
  
 Yes, my pursuit is getting pretty crazy, but I like how zachO has described the Sparkos, so I just have to try it.
  
 I paid $150, before shipping, to get a pair of JRC Muses 02, from a reliable source (mouser.com), was not impressed and did not get any takers after trying to sell the pair for $75 across many weeks of posting the ad. So, I was reluctant to pull the trigger on the Sparkos, but zachO's testimony isn't the first I've read, praising them.
  
 I'm also motivated by the thought of being able to put the lid back on my otherwise portable iBasso PB2 amp, but SQ will come first. I've been using the topless iBasso for several weeks now.
  


zacho said:


> The photo I took of that melted opamp wasn't the one that lasted a minute. The one that lasted only a minute had only melted a little and the red casing had risen ~2mm. I want to believe that it was a lemon but the failure rate I experienced with the bursons proves otherwise. I had a total of 4 replacements. Yes, I agree that the burson's do sound wonderful, especially with their sparkly treble. But like I mentioned in my post, the musical and balanced presentation of the Sparkos just made me realise how much of an improvement they were over the Burson's. Of course, this ultimately boils down to personal preference and at the end of the day, I'm glad I took the full refund and made the switch to Sparko's. I look forward to hearing your listening impressions with the Sparko's. I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed.
> 
> Cheers!


 
  
 Thanks for the clarification - I've updated my earlier post. Thanks again for the recommendation and no hard feelings if my opinion, with my gear doesn't align with yours.
  
 How long did it take for you to receive the Sparkos after placing the order?
  
 Mike


----------



## zachO

To each his own. Everyone is free to form their own opinions. I just thought i'd share mine since a lot of people here have been experiencing the same issues that I was experiencing and no one seems to have considered switching camps.
  
 it only took 1 week for it to arrive at my doorstep (Singapore).


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

Wow, I came her just to suggest trying the Sparko over the Burson just based on sound comparison in my Little Dot 1+ but looks like you guys are figuring it out. The Sparko is more open and dynamic sounding. The Burson is darker and thicker sounding.


----------



## zachO

azraeldarkangel said:


> Wow, I came her just to suggest trying the Sparko over the Burson just based on sound comparison in my Little Dot 1+ but looks like you guys are figuring it out. The Sparko is more open and dynamic sounding. The Burson is darker and thicker sounding.


 
 Glad to see someone else preferring the Sparko over the Burson. Although in my system, I found the sparko to have a much more organic and rich tonality.


----------



## monoxyde1234

zacho said:


> They offered me that option as well and I didn't think it made sense. If I wanted the V5i, I could've opted for the full refund and then bought the V5i's with cash to spare. Was that the same offer they made you?


 
 The thing is they didn't even offer me that option. They just went ahead and sent me the V5i's. needless to say I already sent Dennis an email regarding the issue.
  
 Now with regards to V5i's full boat, I had these burning in for more than 2 days now. I can't exactly remember how the V5's sound so I can't make a detailed comparison between the two, but they do share the same sonic signature although with less refinement. The highs are smoother with the V5's and the lows, a bit more energetic and controlled.
  
 But V5i's are closer to the V5's than they are different. not a baby V5, more like a younger brother, just my 2 cents.
  
 one other interesting note, when I had the V5's i set my h10 to +6 and get enough juice to produce a "live venue" amount of volume(a dangerous amount), but with these, I have to turn my amp to +12 get the same amount of volume. But then again, my deafness might be getting worse 
  
 We'll see any changes as these puppies burn in.


----------



## zachO

monoxyde1234 said:


> The thing is they didn't even offer me that option. They just went ahead and sent me the V5i's. needless to say I already sent Dennis an email regarding the issue.
> 
> Now with regards to V5i's full boat, I had these burning in for more than 2 days now. I can't exactly remember how the V5's sound so I can't make a detailed comparison between the two, but they do share the same sonic signature although with less refinement. The highs are smoother with the V5's and the lows, a bit more energetic and controlled.
> 
> ...


 
 Man.. I feel bad for you. I'm pretty sure Dennis will sort things out for you, or at least i'm hoping he does. Kinda low to just replace your product with something of lower value without even getting your consent beforehand. Either way, I hope that you're at least happy with the V5i's and hope to god that it doesn't fail like the v5.


----------



## monoxyde1234

zacho said:


> Man.. I feel bad for you. I'm pretty sure Dennis will sort things out for you, or at least i'm hoping he does. Kinda low to just replace your product with something of lower value without even getting your consent beforehand. Either way, I hope that you're at least happy with the V5i's and hope to god that it doesn't fail like the v5.


 
 Well if its any consolation its either I get to try the v5i's full boat and get my proper replacements sorted out, or get to keep the v5i's and save a couple $$
  
 Now we need a more comprehensive comparison between the two so I'll know if I'll keep these, let's say if its about 95% of the V5's sound but with a good amount more reliable.


----------



## Lohb

Just got 4 singles from Burson. Wanted the H10 before to opamp roll, but not practical with my living set-up, so I thought I could apply the opamp rolling to a small and transportable hybrid tube amp *inspired by the relentless rolling on this thread before !*
  
 See the thread is still going strong !


----------



## willowbrook

lohb said:


> Just got 4 singles from Burson. Wanted the H10 before to opamp roll, but not practical with my living set-up, so I thought I could apply the opamp rolling to a small and transportable hybrid tube amp *inspired by the relentless rolling on this thread before !*
> 
> See the thread is still going strong !


 
 Looks beautiful!


----------



## mourip

I am pretty curious to know what opamp they are using inside.
  
 They built a company based upon discrete circuits so this is a turn for them.


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

Hi!
 I received my V5i's full boat in the post today. Came directly from Hong Kong, I imagine they either all come from there or they were just produced and sent out directly from their warehouse before being sent to Australia.
 I'll post a pic as I had some confusion trying to put them in:
  

  
 Tried using the instructions for the V5's only to realise that the pins are at 90 degrees to the writing, then later I realised that the slight dip in the opamp (meant to help placement) is no longer on the top down view, but on the bottom up.
 Anyway long story short, the best way to put them in is to align them so the writing is the exact same direction as the original opamps that you would have just taken out.
  
*First Impression:*
  
Please excuse my poor use of terminology
 As many before me I claim not to be an audiophile, I'm just a poor uni student that spends all his available money on electronics. My setup is as follows:
 PC ==> O2 E-DAC ==> Gustard H10 ==> HifiMan HE-500's w/ Focus Pads.
  
 I'll detail my thoughts with specific songs:
*Poets of the Fall - Temple of Thought  *-  _A personal favourite - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfVGvY7p1sU_
 This is my go to song as soon as I have an audio upgrade. The very first thing I noticed was that the harshness in the trebles was gone. Without the opamps I sometimes felt like the upper peak in the trebles was a little too high for my tastes. When the frequencies when particularly high I'd wince a little, it was a bit too much for me, that's been put under control. This was nice to hear.
 The next thing I noticed was that the slight midbass hump was gone. Before the lower part of the midrange and the upper bass region sort of melded to produce a very slightly booming. It definitely wasn't significant and the range of frequencies where I heard it was quite small but was occassionally noticeable. That has been completely removed and it sounds much flatter. I think I'll might miss it on some songs but I'm sure in the long run it will sound better.
  
*Chris Jones - Long After You're Gone *- _I find this really flexes the midrange and trebles - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Zce9gmjIA_
 Again my first impressions of the upper peak in the trebles being put under control is again confirmed. Sounds much better now. Midrange feels a touch more forward than it use to be. Not to Grado standard but it is a welcome addition. I noticed at this point that the sound does not sound anymore "airy" than it used to be. I feel it actually is now slightly more closed in because of the slightly more forward midrange, not that this is a bad thing, as a listener of EDM/Grime/Indie/Deep House I actually like this.
  
*Full Crate x Mar - Nobody Else *- _I find this really hits all the frequencies of the bass_ _- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7iMTVdiDIM_
 You'll have to really jump around the middle of the song to feel the bass. I find here the bass is very dynamic and varies greatly and allows the listener to hear a lot of the frequencies in one go in a song without doing a bass test that just drops as low as it can. Here I felt that the bass extended lower than it had, though I'm not entirely sure if that's true. I'd like to say it is but I don't think the Burson's have done much to add/improve the bass beside the midbass hump spoken about above.
  
  
 Would I say they're worth it for the £90 I paid?
 Right now I say "yeah sort of", purely because that's quite a bit to spend on differences where you're not always going to be like "Hell yea!".
 In the long run however it is definitely an upgrade worth doing and so I know I personally would eventually take the leap with opamps and so yes, it is worth the money.
 Thanks for reading. Happy listening.
  
 P.S. Burson didn't request I post a review or anything, I just felt I read a lot on HeadFi and finally found a time when I can share my thoughts.


----------



## tommo21

Since my Single V5's started to melt I've taken them out and am shipping them back to Burson in change of single V5i's. I'm now pairing Opa627's with V5i duals and that's actually quite a good combination. Airy and smooth is keywords for this combination. Bit dissapointed that the V5's has failed on me, but I hope the V5i singles will be at least near the V5's sound.


----------



## zachO

tommo21 said:


> Since my Single V5's started to melt I've taken them out and am shipping them back to Burson in change of single V5i's. I'm now pairing Opa627's with V5i duals and that's actually quite a good combination. Airy and smooth is keywords for this combination. Bit dissapointed that the V5's has failed on me, but I hope the V5i singles will be at least near the V5's sound.


 
 I'm wondering if you guys got a partial refund for swapping the V5 for V5i? Or what's stopping you from getting a full refund and then buying the V5i with cash to spare.


----------



## tommo21

zacho said:


> I'm wondering if you guys got a partial refund for swapping the V5 for V5i? Or what's stopping you from getting a full refund and then buying the V5i with cash to spare.


 
 I actually got more when swapping my V5 duals with Burson. I got 4 V5i duals and the heatsink. I think that's $10-12 more than the V5 duals themselves. As I bought the H10 full boat package I got a discount the first time around, so don't think I'm gonna ask for more this time, as I will break even in value I think anyway.


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

I apologize in advance for the dumb question, but for the +6 gain +6 is the only switch that goes up while the rest stay down and you do this for both right and left, right?


----------



## tretneo

zekeadebayo said:


> I apologize in advance for the dumb question, but for the +6 gain +6 is the only switch that goes up while the rest stay down and you do this for both right and left, right?


 
  
 Correct


----------



## zilch0md

The *Sparkos Labs SS3602* duals arrived today. They are far from burned-in but I'm really impressed with how they sound (and I'm actually able to close the lid of my PB2 portable amp). The HD800 isn't having any "compatibility" problems. My first (premature) impression is that they are a little bit rolled off in the treble, compared to the well-seasoned Burson V5.  More time is needed.  For sure, they are competitive with the Burson V5.


----------



## AzraelDarkangel

zilch0md said:


> The Sparkos Labs SS3206 duals arrived today. They are far from burned-in but I'm really impressed with how they sound (and I'm actually able to close the lid of my PB2 portable amp). The HD800 isn't having any "compatibility" problems. My first (premature) impression is that they are a little bit rolled off in the treble, compared to the well-seasoned Burson V5.  More time is needed.  For sure, they are competitive with the Burson V5.


 
 I use them in my Little Dot 1+ so my sound impressions are different it seems. I felt the Burson V5 to be a bit darker and a bit closed in sounding, although very detailed in the mid to low. The Sparkos have a beautiful open and dynamic sound and are brighter sounding on my Little Dot.​


----------



## zachO

zilch0md said:


> The Sparkos Labs SS3206 duals arrived today. They are far from burned-in but I'm really impressed with how they sound (and I'm actually able to close the lid of my PB2 portable amp). The HD800 isn't having any "compatibility" problems. My first (premature) impression is that they are a little bit rolled off in the treble, compared to the well-seasoned Burson V5.  More time is needed.  For sure, they are competitive with the Burson V5.


 
  
  
@zilch0md I had the same initial impressions. Bursons to me had the nice sparkly treble which make the sparkos sound rolled off in comparison. but the overall presentation was a lot more organic and balanced. So i don't actually miss the sparkly highs anymore.


----------



## LS302

Just curious anyone tried half boat V5 with half boat Sparkos labs.


----------



## zilch0md

zacho said:


> @zilch0md I had the same initial impressions. Bursons to me had the nice sparkly treble which make the sparkos sound rolled off in comparison. but the overall presentation was a lot more organic and balanced. So i don't actually miss the sparkly highs anymore.


 
  
 Hi zachO,
  
 Actually, now that they have had a few hours of burn-in, and I've spent some time swapping back and forth between the Burson V5 Dual and the Sparkos SS3602 - back and forth - back and forth - with several favorite tracks, the differences between them are shrinking (compared to what I heard when the Sparkos were new.)
  
 Again, this might still be premature, as they could still be settling in, but at this point, the greatest distinction is that the Sparkos are more dynamic - punchier.  Next in line for magnitude of distinction would be the Sparkos having a wee bit more bass energy, which is really welcome with both the HD800 and the DT880 600 Ohm.  These differences are so subtle that they wouldn't rule out using the the SS3602 with a bass-heavy headphone.  My LCD-2 isn't turned into a boombox.  
  
 Regarding the treble differences, I am beginning to think the Sparkos isn't so much rolled off as it is simply smoother, yet still every bit as detailed - a remarkable feat.  When I listen to Eva Cassidy's "Blues In The Night," for example, her most shrill high notes are completely, utterly sweet with the Sparkos, despite the HD800's 6kHz spike, and all the while, the cymbal brushes stay just as nicely defined as with the Burson V5s.  Switching back to the V5s, Eva's siren blasts are immediately noticeable as being almost grainy - they have always been easier to enjoy with my LCD-2, but only by nature of the LCD-2's shelved highs. Now, with the Sparkos SS3602, my HD800 have none of that brittle edginess, and the DT880 600 is smoother still.  If I could marry the DT880 treble with the HD800 mid and bass, I wouldn't need the Sparkos SS3602.  As is, I'm really happy with what the Sparkos do for the HD800 treble.  And again, the detail is there - just not as "crystalline" as the Burson V5.  It's not as if the Sparkos lacks sparkle - it's more like the sparkle is just more palatable.
  
 Again, it might be too early yet, but I've put the lid on my PB2 for the first time in several weeks (which is a nice perk).
  

  
  

  
  

  
 As you can see in these photos, the SS3602 don't actually sit fully down into the PB2's sockets.  The gain jumpers and battery pack are just too close to the sockets for the SS3602, and if I insert a DIP8 extender under each op-amp, they will sit squarely, but then they are too high to put the lid back on - as with the Burson V5.  
  





  
 Fortunately, the pins are long enough that I'm getting a good connection, electrically, and they show no signs of coming loose when I shake the amp vigorously.  On the subject of the SS3602's pins, I've not measured them with a micrometer, but it's easy to tell that they are skinnier than any other DIP8 pins I've seen on other op-amps. Their diameter being less, I have some DIP8 extenders in which they have hardly any "grip" at all.  Sparkos Labs includes a DIP8 extender with each op-amp, that looks like this:
  

  
 The spring clips do a great job of gripping the Sparkos pins - better than the extenders that have round holes on top - but, in my case, I can't use either style (not without leaving the lid off my case.)
  
  
 Again, it might be too early yet, but as I write this, for my gear and my tastes, I prefer the Sparkos SS3602 to the Burson V5 Dual, but it's a very close race. I have several lesser op-amps that exhibit a much greater difference in performance.  In other words, the Sparkos SS3602 has taken things from maybe 95% to 97% of perfection. (Or maybe it's 92% to 94% - who knows where perfection is?)
  
 At this point, I'm really glad I bought them, but I wouldn't feel right encouraging someone to replace Burson V5s they already own. That's my thinking, with my gear.  YMMV.  I do, however, feel comfortable advising anyone who has neither, to get the Sparkos SS3601 or SS3602 (single or dual).  It's rated to handle up to 22V, and will probably run a lot cooler, given its open construction. (It's not embalmed in a foam-filled red plastic coffin.) 
  




  
 I forgot to mention, too, that the Sparkos SS3602 has a little more gain than the Burson V5 Dual.  I match the volume of components when testing. I use an inexpensive Scosche SPL Meter inserted between the headphone pads at rest on the table top, while playing a white noise file, to adjust to the volume to 85 dB. I put transparent tape around the volume knob, then mark both positions with a fine point marker - on the tape. This ensures that I'm not giving one component a volume advantage over the other.  
  
  
 http://sparkoslabs.com/discrete-op-amps/
  
 http://sparkoslabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/SS3601_SS3602.pdf
  
 More later, especially if the sound changes...
  
 Mike


----------



## zachO

zilch0md said:


> Hi zachO,
> 
> Actually, now that they have had a few hours of burn-in, and I've spent some time swapping back and forth between the Burson V5 Dual and the Sparkos SS3602 - back and forth - back and forth - with several favorite tracks, the differences between them are shrinking (compared to what I heard when the Sparkos were new.)
> 
> ...


 
 Wonderful to hear Mike. For me it's easy to recommend the Sparko's to those who have been experiencing melting V5's. Simply because you end up spending more time listening and enjoying your music and equipment than replacing melted opamps. It truly frustrated me to no end. At the end of the day, I can't fault burson's sound quality and it's a matter of personal preference which one you'd go for. Sparkos are definitely more solid and have a smoother presentation. Burson's are more sparkly in the top end. But again, if you've replaced your melted burson's with more melted burson's, I strongly suggest giving the sparkos a chance.


----------



## zilch0md

Yes, there's that issue, for sure.  With the 22V maximum supply volt rating and the open construction, the SS3601 or 2 should hold up really well in the H10, at any gain setting.
  
 And if you did have a problem, Sparkos Labs is in Colorado - easier and faster for performing exchanges.


----------



## tretneo

Has Burson discontinued the v4 SS Opamps? If not, those of you with melting v5s may want to give them a try. I've never had a single issue with mine.


----------



## sunneebear

I am a fan of Burson's SS op-amps.  I own versions 1,2 and 4.  I have to say that I think the cover on the V5 is a poor design.  All the op-amps I have get pretty hot when installed in a class A amplifier.  I don't believe the V5's melting is caused by the H10's internal heat but due to the heat of the covered V5 itself.  It makes me wonder what is under the red cover?  If amplifier ,op-amp or any kind of heat is the problem, why not sell the V5 without the cover?


----------



## zachO

tretneo said:


> Has Burson discontinued the v4 SS Opamps? If not, those of you with melting v5s may want to give them a try. I've never had a single issue with mine.


 
 I don't think they'd be able to close the lid of their H10 if they used the v4.


----------



## lafeuill

...


----------



## lafeuill

Spoiler






zilch0md said:


> Hi zachO,
> 
> Actually, now that they have had a few hours of burn-in, and I've spent some time swapping back and forth between the Burson V5 Dual and the Sparkos SS3602 - back and forth - back and forth - with several favorite tracks, the differences between them are shrinking (compared to what I heard when the Sparkos were new.)
> 
> ...






Thanks for the feedback on the Sparkos guys. Much appreciated.


----------



## ch1n4

sunneebear said:


> I am a fan of Burson's SS op-amps.  I own versions 1,2 and 4.  I have to say that I think the cover on the V5 is a poor design.  All the op-amps I have get pretty hot when installed in a class A amplifier.  I don't believe the V5's melting is caused by the H10's internal heat but due to the heat of the covered V5 itself.  It makes me wonder what is under the red cover?  If amplifier ,op-amp or any kind of heat is the problem, why not sell the V5 without the cover?


 

 That's also what I am thinking. What purpuse/function does the cover have, except preventing physical damage? Can the V5 be used without the cover?


----------



## tretneo

zacho said:


> I don't think they'd be able to close the lid of their H10 if they used the v4.




Definitely can, I have a full boat v4 H10. I'll see if I can find a link to the details.


----------



## zilch0md

ch1n4 said:


> That's also what I am thinking. What purpuse/function does the cover have, except preventing physical damage? Can the V5 be used without the cover?


 
  
 Bumping my earlier post, the H10 would likely run much cooler with a couple of these large, $13.50 heat sinks resting on top of the closed case:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/4980#post_12601242


----------



## sunneebear

zilch0md said:


> Bumping my earlier post, the H10 would likely run much cooler with a couple of these large, $13.50 heat sinks resting on top of the closed case:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/4980#post_12601242




The H10 can handle all that heat plus the extra coming from any op-amps installed. I run mine with the V4, closed case for over a day before with no problems. The problem here is the V5, the red cover and yellow stuff inside that melts.


----------



## sparko311

HI guys.  I hate to say it, but the SS3601 are not compatible with the Gustard Amplifier.  Its about the only piece of gear that it just doesnt work in.  Im not sure why, as I have never saw a schematic of the Gustard.  It seems like it is a closely guarded secret.


----------



## zilch0md

sparko311 said:


> HI guys.  I hate to say it, but the SS3601 are not compatible with the Gustard Amplifier.  Its about the only piece of gear that it just doesnt work in.  Im not sure why, as I have never saw a schematic of the Gustard.  It seems like it is a closely guarded secret.


 
  
 Thanks for the warning!  





 
 Can we assume the SS3602 (duals) are compatible with the H10, even though the SS3601 (singles) are not?
  
 Mike


----------



## zilch0md

sunneebear said:


> The H10 can handle all that heat plus the extra coming from any op-amps installed. I run mine with the V4, closed case for over a day before with no problems. The problem here is the V5, the red cover and yellow stuff inside that melts.


 
  
 Oh, I agree, completely.  
  


zilch0md said:


> [snip]
> 
> [The SS3602 is] rated to handle up to 22V, and will probably run a lot cooler, given its open construction.* (It's not embalmed in a foam-filled red plastic coffin.) *
> 
> [snip]


 
  
 But for those who already have the V5 and like the sound, "enabling" the V5 by helping it to stay cool inside the H10 is certainly worth trying.


----------



## sparko311

yes, I believe the SS3602 would be OK in the Gustard.  Its just the singles (SS3601) that go in the head phone amplifier portion that wont work.  I believe its because my devices use 2 pole compensation (which is part of their magic) and the gustard head amp has its own pole in it - which makes a 3 pole (unstable) system. 

 I think it would be great for someone to try the SS3602 in there for the dual OPAs (which i believe are part of the input stage)  If it doesnt work out - I do offer money back guarantee.


----------



## canthearyou

Like I posted earlier, I think the Sparko duals and Burson singles would make a great match.


----------



## FritzS

My experience about Burson Supreme Sound Opamp V5 - but i don't know about Sparkos SS3602 till now.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/432749/the-opamp-thread/5175#post_12529711
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/432749/the-opamp-thread/5175#post_12632408


----------



## gunnerwholelife

My tube amp similar to BH Crack, just quit on me today.
 I am looking for some replacement amp to drive my hd650's and dt880's.till the tube amp is fixed.
  
 Looking at SS amps as of now.
  
 Does this play well with hd650/dt880 ?


----------



## Walderstorn

gunnerwholelife said:


> My tube amp similar to BH Crack, just quit on me today.
> I am looking for some replacement amp to drive my hd650's and dt880's.till the tube amp is fixed.
> 
> Looking at SS amps as of now.
> ...


 
  
 It does with 600 so should be good with 650.


----------



## FritzS

GUSTARD H10 is new for me.
 My questions, who is the manufacturer from the GUSTARD H10?
 Gives there a homepage from?


----------



## Walderstorn

fritzs said:


> GUSTARD H10 is new for me.
> My questions, who is the manufacturer from the GUSTARD H10?
> Gives there a homepage from?


 
  
 You can ask pollychen about it.
 I still dont think there is a homepage.
 I can at least tell you that for the price its a no-brainer for my hd600. Im EU selling mine because i want a 3x as expensive piece of gear, otherwise i would keep it.


----------



## olek

gunnerwholelife said:


> Does this play well with hd650/dt880 ?


 
  
 Stock, it will amplify them fine - as long as you do not expect greatness. If your dt880 is 600 Ohm model, it will be OK with H10, just a bit dull.
  
 If you only wanted to feed hd650, O2 would be not bad as interim solution, cheaper, smaller, and performs (with HD650!) on almost the same level.
 But O2 totally runs out of breath with DT880/600, would not recommend that combination.


----------



## sportteo

how much( euros) the Burson  V5 Op-Amp for gustard h10 ? 4 pieces i guess (2+2)?


----------



## eacmen

I recently bought an H10 from another head-fi member that had lost the screws for the H10 enclosure. If anyone is curious I have measured the screws using calipers and a thread gauge. If anyone else needs to replace the screws for their H10 the following should be correct:
  
 Socket Cap M3 x 0.5 x 12mm Machine Screw
  
 Details:
 Thread Length: 12mm
 Thread Pitch: 0.5
 Bolt Diameter: 3mm
 Head Type: Socket Cap
 Head Diameter: 5.5mm
 Head Height: 3mm
 Drive Type: Hex
 Drive Size: 2.5mm
  
 Minimum order quantity was 100 for these screws. So if anyone just wants to pay postage PM me and I can send you some of my spares once I get them.


----------



## jazzwave

sportteo said:


> how much( euros) the Burson  V5 Op-Amp for gustard h10 ? 4 pieces i guess (2+2)?


 
  
 Single
http://www.ebay.com/itm/V5-Single-SS-discrete-Opamp-x-2-beat-OPA627-AD811-AD844-OPA604-AD8610-AD797-LME-/111879962757?hash=item1a0c90c085:gzoAAOSwWnFWChi9
  
 Dual
http://www.ebay.com/itm/V5-Dual-SS-discrete-Opamp-x-2-beat-OPA627-NE5534-LME49990-LME49710-OPA2604-/111969987041?hash=item1a11ee69e1:grIAAOSwuTxWChfL


----------



## sportteo

Thanks "Jazzwave' for the links


----------



## lafeuill

eacmen said:


> I recently bought an H10 from another head-fi member that had lost the screws for the H10 enclosure. If anyone is curious I have measured the screws using calipers and a thread gauge. If anyone else needs to replace the screws for their H10 the following should be correct:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


Noted, thanks for the kind offer ^^


----------



## zilch0md

Scruffy1 has posted some very positive comments on the Burson *V5i*, in the Opamp thread:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/432749/the-opamp-thread/5175#post_12642543


----------



## happyguitarist

Has anyone done a detailed sound comparison of V5i vs V5 (either single or dual)?


----------



## Walderstorn

If any1 from Europe wants to buy a Gustard stock to avoid customs fees give me a holla had a lot of fun with them but they dont work with my Hd800 as good as they did with my HD600.


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

I'm asking this question because I'm curious to get the answer. I have two headphones amps, the Magni 2 Uber and the Gustard H10 both were used to drive my Hifiman HE-560
  
 Magni 2 Uber (High Gain Mode)
  
  
 Gustard H10 (stock, and on the +6 Gain mode)
  
 What I did notice was that although the Uber has a lower wattage reading it still was louder at the same knob level as the Gustard. There was a higher increase in volume per turn on the Uber than the H10 (both have smooth turn dials). I was curious as to why? My knowledge of headphone amplification is that a higher wattage for a more demanding headphone meant that it would be more likely to perform to the best of its abilities (in short not sound underpowered in any way) but I also though that the increase in wattage would also mean a louder volume per turn in comparison to a lower wattage amp and to me that wasn't the case. 
  
 I used the +6 gain mode instead of the +12 because I was advised to do so, it was a bit odd to me because I was told that the more juice a planar is given the better it performs (obviously there's a limit to how high you can go as well). 
  
 Lastly the H10 and X12 combo tend to have a little less treble up top in comparison to the Uber stack in a ways favoring a more smoother sound, is this smoothed out treble lost detail?


----------



## olek

Sorry if I am going to sound harsh but consumer's misconception that if equipment deliver louder volume with smaller turn of volume knob it must be more powerful hurt this industry.
 Amp design can use linear potentiometer (bad idea), or logarithmic one (typical), and their rate of resistance change per 1 extra degree of turn can be different, and circuit can be designed in different way to allow different rate of volume increase. Ideally, one wants to have whole available '10 hours' volume span to be able to adjust volume in even way ('even' to human hearing which is logarithmic in nature), because that gives most precision in volume adjustments. Because eventually manufacturers got tired of explaining consumers that their gear is not broken if they needed to turn volume above 12 o'clock, most started to produce amplifiers where most of the volume change is happening between 8am and 1pm, and above that, volume changes a little.That is undoubtedly bad user experience, but paradoxically, that is experience that generated least amount of trouble for manufacturers.
  
 In other words, H10 can deliver less volume for given potentiometer position compared to Magni, and that is OK, it ain't broken.
  
 As for your comment on treble quantity, no surprise here, Schiit is known for relatively bright sound, and H10 is known for a very relaxed, "tube-like" sound, at least in its stock form.
  
 And for gain, use whatever sounds and feels best for you, and ignore what others say, including what I wrote here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Trust your own ears, and do not let anybody else tell you what is right.


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

olek said:


> Sorry if I am going to sound harsh but consumer's misconception that if equipment deliver louder volume with smaller turn of volume knob it must be more powerful hurt this industry.
> Amp design can use linear potentiometer (bad idea), or logarithmic one (typical), and their rate of resistance change per 1 extra degree of turn can be different, and circuit can be designed in different way to allow different rate of volume increase. Ideally, one wants to have whole available '10 hours' volume span to be able to adjust volume in even way ('even' to human hearing which is logarithmic in nature), because that gives most precision in volume adjustments. Because eventually manufacturers got tired of explaining consumers that their gear is not broken if they needed to turn volume above 12 o'clock, most started to produce amplifiers where most of the volume change is happening between 8am and 1pm, and above that, volume changes a little.That is undoubtedly bad user experience, but paradoxically, that is experience that generated least amount of trouble for manufacturers.
> 
> In other words, H10 can deliver less volume for given potentiometer position compared to Magni, and that is OK, it ain't broken.
> ...


 
 It wasn't harsh at all sir. You did a great job explaining, I was just curious and have gotten my question answered. I prefer to be informed than to remain ignorant.


----------



## Rob Allan

This forum is such a wonderful but dangerous place, just gives you major GAS.  In the last six months been getting so wrapped up in Head-Fi gear lurking around here and loving it a middle age guy having such a midlife tune crisis.  
  
 My go-to head wear at present is AKG 702 Annies, and more recently replaced a PM3 with a new LCD 2f and Shure 535 on the go.  So far I have only experienced these phones through portable AMP/DAC's - HA-2, Dragonfly Red(phone and pc) and a DIY raspberry PI with an header IQAudio Dac.  Mixture of Tidal HIFI and owned lossless content.
  
 Volume isn't a problem for me in terms of drive even on the LCD they sound great to me on present gear, but constantly read even with the low ohm rating that both the LCD and the Annies have, they really shine pushing more volts/watts.
  
 Think I have reached the point where I feel the need experience this for myself and see how much gain there is to be had pushing more go go juice.
  
 Currently on page 130 of this thread and with every moment of reading the restraint to not just pull the trigger on the H10 grows this could be my next step, its been an expensive month I am not RockaFella but you only live once... I will be lucky to resist the urge much longer.
  
 Back to 130 I go, see you soon hopefully  
  
 Temptation is strong so strong


----------



## willowbrook

rob allan said:


> This forum is such a wonderful but dangerous place, just gives you major GAS.  In the last six months been getting so wrapped up in Head-Fi gear lurking around here and loving it a middle age guy having such a midlife tune crisis.
> 
> My go-to head wear at present is AKG 702 Annies, and more recently replaced a PM3 with a new LCD 2f and Shure 535 on the go.  So far I have only experienced these phones through portable AMP/DAC's - HA-2, Dragonfly Red(phone and pc) and a DIY raspberry PI with an header IQAudio Dac.  Mixture of Tidal HIFI and owned lossless content.
> 
> ...


 
 Especially since Burson has released their new cheaper hybrid version of V5, the V5i, it is really harder to resist temptation. Dat design of those op-amps...amazing.


----------



## Rob Allan

willowbrook said:


> Especially since Burson has released their new cheaper hybrid version of V5, the V5i, it is really harder to resist temptation. Dat design of those op-amps...amazing.




Not quite got up to op-amp rolling yet in this thread did see a few melting posts having a sneak peek before hitting the thread up from the beginning 

I like the idea though a nice option to have.


----------



## Rob Allan

Quick question not answered yet at the point of thread I am upto. With burn in, in mind one shot deal? or is there a feeling of having to burn in each gain stage/setting. Maybe a daft question.


----------



## MLegend

Anyone looking for an H10 with burson V5s? Mine is still for sale.


----------



## Rob Allan

Got to page 170 yesterday afternoon and just couldn't resist anymore broke down and took the plunge an hour later H10 was despatched and now according the missus a rather large box is sat at home waiting for me.

Bought from a true gent on eBay wish all eBay purchases were like that. Looked to be a stock minter previous owner/gent had around 50hours running in on HD800s on +12. 

Patience is not a virtue of mine. Roll on home time


----------



## willowbrook

rob allan said:


> Got to page 170 yesterday afternoon and just couldn't resist anymore broke down and took the plunge an hour later H10 was despatched and now according the missus a rather large box is sat at home waiting for me.
> 
> Bought from a true gent on eBay wish all eBay purchases were like that. Looked to be a stock minter previous owner/gent had around 50hours running in on HD800s on +12.
> 
> Patience is not a virtue of mine. Roll on home time


 
 Might be disappointed with stock or not depending on what you plug in and your expectations, but I can assure you that op amps will make a difference if you choose to talor/improve the sound. ^^


----------



## Rob Allan

willowbrook said:


> Might be disappointed with stock or not depending on what you plug in and your expectations, but I can assure you that op amps will make a difference if you choose to talor/improve the sound. ^^




Got fingers and toes crossed been jotting down the wealth of info in this thread including a bit amp rolling info all much appreciated I might add. Will be LCD 2f first as it seems to have come up allot as a good pairing. DAC wise without amping an amp my choices are fairly limited no doubt be a IQaudio+ as a first spin. Look forward to it thanks again for all the vast info here


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

willowbrook said:


> Might be disappointed with stock or not depending on what you plug in and your expectations, but I can assure you that op amps will make a difference if you choose to talor/improve the sound. ^^


 
 How did the OP amp mod work out for you? I remember you stating a while back that the stock H10 and 560 combo disappointed you. Any info is really appreciated.


----------



## mandrake50

zekeadebayo said:


> It wasn't harsh at all sir. You did a great job explaining, I was just curious and have gotten my question answered. I prefer to be informed than to remain ignorant.


 

 There is another aspect to consider as well. The volume taper is a definite factor but the input sensitivity  and match with the output of the source also make a big difference. Unfortunately, in headphone amps these specs are seldom mentioned.
 Sometime the input impedance is listed, but not regularly. If one amp requires 2 volts of drive for rated output at full volume and another only requires 1 volt or 1.5 volts, the position of the volume knob to match levels will be quite different. Of course gain settings also play a part. The 6 DB gain on the H10 is relative to 0 gain... on the H10 (only  not universally)meaning the setting that will yield full output at the rated sensitivity. Comparing that gain level with another amps gain set on "high" and not knowing the amount of gain nor the baseline sensitivity makes the volume knob position comparison even more meaningless.
 The true criteria to be concerned about is whether you can achieve your desired SPL without the amp producing objectionable levels of distortion. If you get this level, don't even worry even a little bit about where the volume knob is set.


----------



## zilch0md

mandrake50 said:


> There is another aspect to consider as well. The volume taper is a definite factor but the input sensitivity  and match with the output of the source also make a big difference. Unfortunately, in headphone amps these specs are seldom mentioned.
> Sometime the input impedance is listed, but not regularly. If one amp requires 2 volts of drive for rated output at full volume and another only requires 1 volt or 1.5 volts, the position of the volume knob to match levels will be quite different. Of course gain settings also play a part. The 6 DB gain on the H10 is relative to 0 gain... on the H10 (only  not universally)meaning the setting that will yield full output at the rated sensitivity. Comparing that gain level with another amps gain set on "high" and not knowing the amount of gain nor the baseline sensitivity makes the volume knob position comparison even more meaningless.
> *The true criteria to be concerned about is whether you can achieve your desired SPL without the amp producing objectionable levels of distortion. If you get this level, don't even worry even a little bit about where the volume knob is set.*


 
  
 Except perhaps the possibility that this might be achieved at more than one gain setting?  In which case a lesser gain setting might be preferable for reducing the noise floor?


----------



## Rob Allan

Never got to have much of a play yesterday as my work shift turned into a mess ended up 18hour torture session working in IT sucks followed by a back in for another session five hours later.

Quiet now on the work front thankfully!!

Having a quick look for OP-Amps in the UK just to have a play with over the weekend, a quick sanity check from those in the know before I buy, am I looking at correct items here?

Free next day so not to bad.

http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/ad823anz/ic-op-amp-fet-r-r-dual-16mhz-823/dp/1438582

http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/ad797anz/ic-op-amp-u-low-noise-dip8-797/dp/9603778

Thanks
Rob

Edit: Think these were correct but never mind no need for a response now, bought some dual Bursons on the sales page and found a UK retailer with the singles. Got up to the point in this thread where Bursons were being discussed after this post of mine look forward to it. Thanks

Personally hoping for more air stock feels great mids/vocals but wanting more everywhere else. *from very short listen.


----------



## desik

H10+V5i full boat, not burned-in, vs Soloist SL, first impressions
 Headphones: IE80.
  
 - Sound signature is practically the same, it's clear that Burson has a house sound signature.
 - On many tracks there's practically no difference.
 - On acoustic guitars Soloist SL has a slight edge in spectral fullness - decay is a bit longer and fuller on Soloist, making guitars sound a tad more musical.
 - Difference is the smallest between any 2 amps I've had so far.
 - Will repeat next week after burn-in.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Back on board the Gustard boat.   Sold my first H10 a year ago and just bought another
 used.  It pairs very well (to these old, but experienced ears) with the AQ Nighthawk.   I
 also have a Burson that will soon go up for sale because the slight midrange warmth of
 the H10 is very synergistic in bringing the mids on the Nighthawks forward a touch.
  
 Bass is stronger on the H10 although possibly not as taut.  Still, I like a little roundness
 in the bottom end, so it works well for me.
 YMMV,
 Hibuck...


----------



## h2rulz

Hi, I just got a second hand Gustard H10.
 Does anyone experience channel imbalance issues at low to mid volume levels?
 I should have known when I first opened the box and saw the gain settings to be different for the right and left in the back.
 Even reverting back to how it was orginally set by the previous owner, I believe there's still slight imbalance.
  
 Could outside force during shipping affect such issues?
 The amp wasn't packed very well, The bottom of the unit only had a half worn thin layer of bubble wrap.


----------



## happyguitarist

Some channel imbalance is normal at lower volumes, it has to do with how the volume pot is set.


----------



## h2rulz

@happyguitarist
 Thanks for the quick response.
  
 However, the problem is the volume has to be set pretty high to perhaps get rid of the problem.
 At that point I'm not sure if that actually corrects the problem or if the volume is too high for me to discern any differences as I can't keep the headphones on for too long.
  
 I'm not sure if I should keep the amp with different gain settings for the left and right or just return it.
 Even then there's slight imbalance the other way around (now left is slightly louder than right at my normal listening volume).


----------



## happyguitarist

The imbalance should not be very noticeable, it seems like you might have other issues.  Maybe you could try setting the gain to -12 for both channels and setting the volume near 12:00 to see if the channels are balanced.


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

Good afternoon everyone. I have been noticing that my Gustard Combo (H10 & X12) seem to pause the audio for a split second then resume whenever I'm watching Youtube videos even though they're nearly fully loaded. Any reason why that may be?


----------



## h2rulz

@happyguitarist
 I tried -12 for both channels and the volume at 12:00.
 The problem seems to be either very subtle or not there anymore.
 Although there's still imbalance at lower levels.


----------



## desik

desik said:


> H10+V5i full boat, not burned-in, vs Soloist SL, first impressions
> Headphones: IE80.
> 
> - Sound signature is practically the same, it's clear that Burson has a house sound signature.
> ...


 

 Update after 1 week of burn-in: precisely the same sound. Impression relative to Soloist SL didn't change.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Hmmm. I have a Soloist SL and a H10. With same source on my AQ Nighthawks,
The sound is warmer and fuller on the Gustard.
Hibuck...


----------



## h2rulz

hibuckhobby said:


> Hmmm. I have a Soloist SL and a H10. With same source on my AQ Nighthawks,
> The sound is warmer and fuller on the Gustard.
> Hibuck...


 
  
 Any further thoughts in comparing the two?
  
 I also have both that I'm A/B'ing everyday. I'm having a hard time to pick between the two for my HE500.
 I too notice the H10 to be warmer with fuller mids, whereas the SL does a better job with the highs and possibly the lows (this I'll have to listen more). Would be great to hear other people's experience with the two.
  
  
 *Btw, the channel imbalance isn't an issue any more.
 It just happened to be my first experience to hear any noticeable imbalance (at low volume) with amps.


----------



## Socratease

I brought my Gustard X10/DAC X12 stack to the San Francisco HeadFi meet last Saturday.  Though looking rather outclassed among the summit-fi gear, the combination driving HE-500 cans drew complimentary reviews from those that tried it.  I have the full Burson V5 upgrade in my X10, and at the end of the show DecentLevi put it up against a few other amps for side-by-side comparisons.  He thought the X10 sounded better than the Cavalli Liquid Carbon that was there (he mentioned it was a discontinued version, though), but that it was edged out by his 6-tube configured Feliks Elise, which he felt was more revealing of detail.


----------



## vinakro

The volume knob on my H10 completely fell off today. It looks like there's a screw but there's no hole for it to go into (a dent instead). Anyone know the best way to reattach this safely?


----------



## sunneebear

socratease said:


> I brought my Gustard X10/DAC X12 stack to the San Francisco HeadFi meet last Saturday.  Though looking rather outclassed among the summit-fi gear, the combination driving HE-500 cans drew complimentary reviews from those that tried it.  I have the full Burson V5 upgrade in my X10, and at the end of the show DecentLevi put it up against a few other amps for side-by-side comparisons.  _*He thought the X10 sounded better than the Cavalli Liquid Carbon that was there*_ (he mentioned it was a discontinued version, though), but that it was edged out by his 6-tube configured Feliks Elise, which he felt was more revealing of detail.


 
 I had the same finding when I had the Carbon for a week.  3 out of 3 people that A/B the two amps chose the H10 with the Bursons.  The owner of the Carbon sold it afterwards.  I thought the Carbon sounded very good, but like the H10 just a bit more.


----------



## Socratease

vinakro said:


> The volume knob on my H10 completely fell off today. It looks like there's a screw but there's no hole for it to go into (a dent instead). Anyone know the best way to reattach this safely?


 
 Looks to me like a standard set-screw setup.  Slip the knob back onto the end of the shaft and use a metric hex key to tighten the set-screw against the shaft.


----------



## lenroot77

Has anyone paired their H10 with a Dac 19 (or other r2r/multibit Dac)? 

Curious on your thoughts. 
I'm also looking for impressions in H10/Hd800 pairings!

Thanks in advance


----------



## tvnosaint

I paired it with a monarchy nm24 for a while. It was a bit too relaxed for my taste after a while. Replaced the h10 with an LC for a better pairing and move the h10 with a geek pulse as the dac. I like both pairings better. A little excitement in both chains


----------



## Socratease

lenroot77 said:


> Has anyone paired their H10 with a Dac 19 (or other r2r/multibit Dac)?


 
 I've used mine with a Bimby and a DIY PCM1702 DAC I built, both sound very nice.  I find I prefer the multibit sound, especially with my HE-500 which can bring out the "glare" from a sigma-delta.  I'd imagine the HD-800 would have the same issue, but YMMV.


----------



## leepc

Just got a brand new H10 for $350 from Ebay. Paired it with HD600, using m9xx as DAC, after listening it for one hour, feel little disappointed with the sound.
 H10 sound good with warm tone, but comparing to Beydynamic A20 , H10 has less dynamic, details, separation and clarity. The snappy HD600 just sounds less snappier on H10.
 I thought  H10 is a copy of Violectric V200 and should be an upgrade to A20, looks like I was wrong . 
 While Germany made Beyerdynamic A20 is only $380 on Amazon, I think H10 is overpriced at $350.


----------



## Sdmark

leepc said:


> Just got a brand new H10 for $350 from Ebay. Paired it with HD600, using m9xx as DAC, after listening it for one hour, feel little disappointed with the sound.
> H10 sound good with warm tone, but comparing to Beydynamic A20 , H10 has less dynamic, details, separation and clarity. The snappy HD600 just sounds less snappier on H10.
> I thought  H10 is a copy of Violectric V200 and should be an upgrade to A20, looks like I was wrong .
> While Germany made Beyerdynamic A20 is only $380 on Amazon, I think H10 is overpriced at $350.




If it's "brand new" it will take some break-in before it performs to its full potential. I bought mine used so it already sounded good to me but in reading this entire thread it is clear that break-in is a critical aspect of reaching that potential.


----------



## railrus

leepc said:


> Just got a brand new H10 for $350 from Ebay. Paired it with HD600, using m9xx as DAC, after listening it for one hour, feel little disappointed with the sound.
> H10 sound good with warm tone, but comparing to Beydynamic A20 , H10 has less dynamic, details, separation and clarity. The snappy HD600 just sounds less snappier on H10.
> I thought  H10 is a copy of Violectric V200 and should be an upgrade to A20, looks like I was wrong .
> While Germany made Beyerdynamic A20 is only $380 on Amazon, I think H10 is overpriced at $350.


 
 a lot of us were disgusted for the first few days


----------



## leepc

Quote:
  
   





sdmark said:


> If it's "brand new" it will take some break-in before it performs to its full potential. I bought mine used so it already sounded good to me but in reading this entire thread it is clear that break-in is a critical aspect of reaching that potential.


  



railrus said:


> a lot of us were disgusted for the first few days


 
  
 thanks ! you two made me sleep better last night.
 I let H10 play music continuingly almost 24 hours.
 Now H10 delivers much more details, dynamic I couldn't heard last night.
 Comparing to cold Germany A20, H10 makes HD600 sound warmer, thicker and mellower.
 Now HD600 sing as it should, maybe even better


----------



## jazzwave

leepc said:


> thanks ! you two made me sleep better last night.
> I let H10 play music continuingly almost 24 hours.
> Now H10 delivers much more details, dynamic I couldn't heard last night.
> Comparing to cold Germany A20, H10 makes HD600 sound warmer, thicker and mellower.
> Now HD600 sing as it should, maybe even better


 
  
 Good to hear..
 First time always painful...
  
 Next, rolling opamp with Burson V5 single will make you smile when sleep


----------



## Walderstorn

lenroot77 said:


> Has anyone paired their H10 with a Dac 19 (or other r2r/multibit Dac)?
> 
> Curious on your thoughts.
> I'm also looking for impressions in H10/Hd800 pairings!
> ...


 
  
 Not a good pairing H10/HD800 for me. With 600 and 650 i found it more enjoyable.


----------



## fritobugger

walderstorn said:


> Not a good pairing H10/HD800 for me. With 600 and 650 i found it more enjoyable.




What didn't you like about the HD800 pairing? I have an HD800 coming in a few weeks.


----------



## zilch0md

fritobugger said:


> What didn't you like about the HD800 pairing? I have an HD800 coming in a few weeks.


 
  
 I've never heard the pairing, but in general, the HD800 is happiest on low- or zero-feedback amps. That's the short version.


----------



## Walderstorn

fritobugger said:


> What didn't you like about the HD800 pairing? I have an HD800 coming in a few weeks.


 
 It just cuts short, the detail, clearness (kinda veiled) and separation i can hear with other budget SS i cant get from this pairing.


----------



## tommo21

Sad sad day today.....my Gustard died. I put it on when I came to work and after an hour I heard a noise from inside, and the smell of burned electronics and power disappeared. I knew it couldn't be good. I took off the lid and immediately noticed the exploded and cracked darlington transistors.
  
 Since I worked at an electronics company and we solder for a living I took it to one of our experts so he could check it out. He said these components will need too much heat to  change that it likely would damage the components around it. Even if it could be done it would be difficult because those pots near the  transistors need correct adjustments for this not to happen again. 
  
 It was fun while it lasted...now I need something new here at work. Might go for the Schiit Vali 2


----------



## Sdmark

tommo21 said:


> Sad sad day today.....my Gustard died. I put it on when I came to work and after an hour I heard a noise from inside, and the smell of burned electronics and power disappeared. I knew it couldn't be good. I took off the lid and immediately noticed the exploded and cracked darlington transistors.




Sorry to hear that, tommo. That's the second one of those transistors I've seen blow like that in a catastrophic manner. 
 I'm not sure that makes it a matter of concern for all Gustard owners but it seems like a possible point of weakness for them.

Is that a TO-99 Op Amp heat sink I see on the right side of the pic? Looks to be one of the dual Op Amps? What were you using there?

Again, sorry for your loss, tommo.


----------



## slex

tommo21 said:


> Sad sad day today.....my Gustard died. I put it on when I came to work and after an hour I heard a noise from inside, and the smell of burned electronics and power disappeared. I knew it couldn't be good. I took off the lid and immediately noticed the exploded and cracked darlington transistors.
> 
> Since I worked at an electronics company and we solder for a living I took it to one of our experts so he could check it out. He said these components will need too much heat to  change that it likely would damage the components around it. Even if it could be done it would be difficult because those pots near the  transistors need correct adjustments for this not to happen again.
> 
> It was fun while it lasted...now I need something new here at work. Might go for the Schiit Vali 2




Just curious, are you using the new V5i opamp from burson. I had move on to Audiogd C2 11A though.


----------



## Walderstorn

Tbh i wouldnt be concerned for the amount that has been selled 2 is a low number, that said it indeed seems like a weak point in the chain.


----------



## tommo21

sdmark said:


> Sorry to hear that, tommo. That's the second one of those transistors I've seen blow like that in a catastrophic manner.
> I'm not sure that makes it a matter of concern for all Gustard owners but it seems like a possible point of weakness for them.
> 
> Is that a TO-99 Op Amp heat sink I see on the right side of the pic? Looks to be one of the dual Op Amps? What were you using there?
> ...


 
 Yep, it's a To-99 heatsink on LM49720HA dual opamps. I preferred them to the dual Burson V5i's in that position. I used single V5i's in the other positions.
  
 Looks like I'm getting a 2 month old Valhalla 2 as replacement.
  
 I have had the Gustard for over 2 years, so I got a good run on it. Sad to see it go though.


----------



## tommo21

Some more damage spotted: Also the small caps around the power-regulators that burst are bulging.


----------



## Vanusk

Considering grabbing SS3602 duals and V5i singles.  Man these things get expensive :O
  
 Still need to get rid of these dt990s too.  I wish hifiman re-released he500 with the comfort, weight and connectors of the he400S


----------



## h2rulz

vanusk said:


> Considering grabbing SS3602 duals and V5i singles.  Man these things get expensive :O
> 
> Still need to get rid of these dt990s too.  I wish hifiman re-released he500 with the comfort, weight and connectors of the he400S


 

 Plz let me know when that happens with the HE500 
  
 On a different note, I've posted my review of the Burson V5i.
 This was my first opamp rolling experience, and I really enjoyed it.
 I hope this doesn't become another rabbit hole that I fall into. I've done my share of tube rolling


----------



## jazzwave

tommo21 said:


> Yep, it's a To-99 heatsink on LM49720HA dual opamps. I preferred them to the dual Burson V5i's in that position. I used single V5i's in the other positions.
> 
> Looks like I'm getting a 2 month old Valhalla 2 as replacement.
> 
> I have had the Gustard for over 2 years, so I got a good run on it. Sad to see it go though.


 
 Thinking to plug LM49720HA dual opamps replace opa627 dual. Do I need adapter for LM49720HA dual opamps? Consider the pin in round format.
  
 `ron`


----------



## christian u

tommo21 said:


> Sad sad day today.....my Gustard died. I put it on when I came to work and after an hour I heard a noise from inside, and the smell of burned electronics and power disappeared. I knew it couldn't be good. I took off the lid and immediately noticed the exploded and cracked darlington transistors.
> 
> Since I worked at an electronics company and we solder for a living I took it to one of our experts so he could check it out. He said these components will need too much heat to  change that it likely would damage the components around it. Even if it could be done it would be difficult because those pots near the  transistors need correct adjustments for this not to happen again.
> 
> It was fun while it lasted...now I need something new here at work. Might go for the Schiit Vali 2


 
 How long did you have the unit before it went bad?


----------



## tommo21

christian u said:


> How long did you have the unit before it went bad?


 
 I had it for approx 18 months. It didn't give me a warning before it went up in smoke, but I have on a regular basis left it on for 2-3 days at a time when burning in new headphones, and as we all know it gets quite warm. Burson have warned about this and therefor also saw the need to make an additional heatsink to lead the heat out. In my case, this heatsink wasn't enough and I belive that the Gustard H10, for longevity, can't be left on for such a long time on a regular basis.
  
 I've used the Burson V5 since around last christmas, and the V5i's after the V5's melted on me. I can't say these caused the breakdown either, but just FYI.


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

Good afternoon everyone! I know this may sound stupid but after having this amp (Gustard H10) and the DAC (Gustard Dac X12), I just wanted to know what makes them so special? My brother and I have both have both done back to back blind A-B test with this and the Schiit Uber Stack (Magni 2 Uber & Modi 2 Uber) and barely noticed a difference, perhaps a tad smoother response and a slightly more filled in bass/mid region but even if that were that case it's certainly doesn't seem like it's worth anywhere near it's original price. Those minuet differences are to the point that are borderline neglectable. I admit that it appears "well built" but what's the point of having this (moderate sized/weighty dac/amp combo) if it hardly sounds any different from a DAC/AMP combo that not only cost a bit less together, also well built/comes with a variety of connectors (a pre-amp section in which the Gustard lacks) while taking up significantly less space at the same time?
  
      I'm in no means a fanboy to Schiit Audio but I have to admit that the Gustard Combo didn't really "outclass" the Schiit Uber stack like many head-fiers made it seem like. If anything, the Schiit Uber Stack was just as good; the minuet the differences the Gustard showed were in no ways things I would call "advantages" . I understand that the H10 outputs more power but isn't the Gustard Combo also more power hungry while being "less energy efficient" as well? I'm asking because from a volume standpoint both combos came out quite clean and with plenty of power to not even have me question whether my HE-560s were being "under-driven" in anyway. I'm not here to rip the product or anyone who has it just being absolutely honest. If I came off as "rude" I apologize, if I came off as "ignorant" please feel free to enlighten me. Anyways, take care and I hope you all have an excellent week!
  
 Other info: 
 Headphones: Hifiman HE-560
 Music Player: Foobar 2000 (Wasapi plugin included). 
  
 Amps: 
 Gustard H10 (Fully Stock)
 Schiit Magni 2 Uber
  
 DAC
 Gustard Dac X12 (Stock)
 Schiit Modi 2 Uber.


----------



## bwcgrx

zekeadebayo said:


> Good afternoon everyone! I know this may sound stupid but after having this amp (Gustard H10) and the DAC (Gustard Dac X12), I just wanted to know what makes them so special? My brother and I have both have both done back to back blind A-B test with this and the Schiit Uber Stack (Magni 2 Uber & Modi 2 Uber) and barely noticed a difference, perhaps a tad smoother response and a slightly more filled in bass/mid region but even if that were that case it's certainly doesn't seem like it's worth anywhere near it's original price. Those minuet differences are to the point that are borderline neglectable. I admit that it appears "well built" but what's the point of having this (moderate sized/weighty dac/amp combo) if it hardly sounds any different from a DAC/AMP combo that not only cost a bit less together, also well built/comes with a variety of connectors (a pre-amp section in which the Gustard lacks) while taking up significantly less space at the same time?
> 
> I'm in no means a fanboy to Schiit Audio but I have to admit that the Gustard Combo didn't really "outclass" the Schiit Uber stack like many head-fiers made it seem like. If anything, the Schiit Uber Stack was just as good; the minuet the differences the Gustard showed were in no ways things I would call "advantages" . I understand that the H10 outputs more power but isn't the Gustard Combo also more power hungry while being "less energy efficient" as well? I'm asking because from a volume standpoint both combos came out quite clean and with plenty of power to not even have me question whether my HE-560s were being "under-driven" in anyway. I'm not here to rip the product or anyone who has it just being absolutely honest. If I came off as "rude" I apologize, if I came off as "ignorant" please feel free to enlighten me. Anyways, take care and I hope you all have an excellent week!
> 
> ...


 
  
 At the risk of jumping in a pit of fire I'm responding to this post.
  
 It would sound to me based on your subjective analysis that there is nothing that makes the Gustard AMP/DAC combo any more special that the Schiit Magni/Modi Uber combo.  If the difference is that negligible to you then it would probably make the most sense to sell the Gustard combo and live happily with the Schiit ubers. You could invest that Gustard money into a trip or some other hobby or even the necessities of life.
  
 Personally I've found my Gustard H10 to be significantly smoother and generally more detailed than the Schiit Magni 2 (non-uber) I used to own.  I'd even say I prefer the H10 to the Asgard 2 which I still own.  I've never owned a Gustard or Schiit DAC so I don't yet have an opinion there.  For the record, I feed my Gustard H10 with balanced XLR from an Aune S16 the Aune being fed AES XLR digital from a Gustard U12 digital interface from my Windows desktop PC.
  
 Maybe those Hifiman HE-560s are so good that neither the Schiit or Gustard combo are revealing enough.  I've not had an opportunity to hear the HE-560 however I do have the HE-400i, Audeze EL-8 Open, Sen HD600 and I think they sound generally a bit smoother and more detailed through the H10 than the Asgard 2 and that is with the S16 being source for both. The Asgard does have more top end and a more in your face sound signature.  Is the difference night and day?  No, more like dawn to daylight.
  
 In regard to power use, I'm sure the Gustard uses more power.  Both Gustard components have larger power supplies and it is my understanding that the H10 is class A which would generally point to it being much less efficient.  However when comparing the difference in power use over the course of a year I doubt there would be more than $10 or $15 between the two over the course of a year and that's if you ran them 24/7.  Just shaving a few degrees off your home thermostat would save much more money/energy, over the course of time, if that is a real concern.
  
 Below are some things I've figured out after spending way too much money in this headphone gear hobby/addiction.
  
 - Sound preference is highly subjective and improvement/differences between various gear is often very subtle
 - Cost to objective value quickly diminishes as price increases
 - Subjective value varies greatly from individual to individual and is most always dictated by income bracket/disposable income.
  
 Anyway.... sell that Gustard combo if the difference is minimal.  Being able to settle on only a few components and headphones is a boon to your pocketbook in this hobby.  Your retirement fund will thank you several decades down the road.
  
 Now I've just got to convince myself and quit buying more amps, dacs and headphones.


----------



## tommo21

I was unfortunate that my H10 blew up a couple of weeks a go, but I got lucky and bought a second hand Schiit Valhalla 2 the next day, and I have to tell you that even though I was very satisfied with my Burson op-amped H10, the Valhalla 2 is better for me. I felt the H10 got a little dark(slightly veiled compared to the Valhalla 2) at times and lost some detail and clarity from upper mids and up to the treble range. The Valhalla uses tubes, but it's not as tube-sounding as other tube amps I've tried. It's for me and my taste better than the H10. I feel it's got a little bit more of everything, not by a mile, but enough for me to notice it already on first listen. I also believe changing the tubes gives more of a change than rolling op-amps in the H10. Just my 2 cents..


----------



## SearchOfSub

lol it "blew up"?.


----------



## tommo21

searchofsub said:


> lol it "blew up"?.



Look at pictures a page or two back.


----------



## SearchOfSub

tommo21 said:


> Sad sad day today.....my Gustard died. I put it on when I came to work and after an hour I heard a noise from inside, and the smell of burned electronics and power disappeared. I knew it couldn't be good. I took off the lid and immediately noticed the exploded and cracked darlington transistors.
> 
> Since I worked at an electronics company and we solder for a living I took it to one of our experts so he could check it out. He said these components will need too much heat to  change that it likely would damage the components around it. Even if it could be done it would be difficult because those pots near the  transistors need correct adjustments for this not to happen again.
> 
> It was fun while it lasted...now I need something new here at work. Might go for the Schiit Vali 2





Schiit has a new balanced amp that can drive even the he6. With built in dac it's only $499.00


----------



## tommo21

searchofsub said:


> Schiit has a new balanced amp that can drive even the he6. With built in dac it's only $499.00


 
 Yeah it's temtring, but I already got the Modi Multibit and Vali 2, and also the Valhalla 2 at the moment, so I will wait and read reviews and impressions first.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Demonstrating once again that tastes, preferences and perceptions differ.  I have an H-10...my second one
 I might add and I've owned an Asgard and two iterations of the Lyr that I did a fair share of tube rolling in.  I
 strongly prefer the H-10 to any of the other 3.  Actually, the amp I have that is most similar to it is a Burson.
  
 Head-fi is an area where strong views and stronger feelings exist.  One mans "night and day difference" is
 another mans "barely worth mentioning".  As far as tastes, I lean toward my Bottlehead and Decware tube
 gear, so that may explain why I find the Class A solid state preferable. 
 YMMV,
 Hibuck....


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, I finally got the chance to try a Gustard H10 amp earlier this summer at a meet in SF and I was definitely impressed! It seemed to have better impact and overall fidelity than the Liquid Carbon amp... yet still somewhat short of my Elise OTL tube amp.
  
 Anyway I've also got the Gustard X12 DAC and am wondering if anybody could chime in about any advantage of the Bifrost Miltibit _"Bimby"_ over the X12?


----------



## lenroot77

Anyone looking to sell a h10?
Shoot me a pm please with condition and price.
Thanks


----------



## oakbloke

Has anyone successfully tightened their volume knob or do you just live with the little bit of wiggle?


----------



## fritobugger

oakbloke said:


> Has anyone successfully tightened their volume knob or do you just live with the little bit of wiggle?


 
  
 No wiggle on mine.  I do recall many pages back where some did have this issue and a solution was provided.


----------



## Sdmark

oakbloke said:


> Has anyone successfully tightened their volume knob or do you just live with the little bit of wiggle?



I don't have any wiggle on mine either but I think I remember reading somewhere in this thread that someone was able to fix theirs.


----------



## wwmhf

oakbloke said:


> Has anyone successfully tightened their volume knob or do you just live with the little bit of wiggle?


 
  
 I have no such an issue on the two H10 of mine.


----------



## normanl

oakbloke said:


> Has anyone successfully tightened their volume knob or do you just live with the little bit of wiggle?


 

 I tightened the volume knob with "Bondhus Ball End 6 Pc Metric Screw 10946 BLX6M" and no problem ever since.


----------



## oakbloke

normanl said:


> I tightened the volume knob with "Bondhus Ball End 6 Pc Metric Screw 10946 BLX6M" and no problem ever since.


 

 Thanks for all the responses, I will open it up and see what I can do. It's very slight, but it's there.


----------



## Socratease

decentlevi said:


> Hi guys, I finally got the chance to try a Gustard H10 amp earlier this summer at a meet in SF and I was definitely impressed! It seemed to have better impact and overall fidelity than the Liquid Carbon amp... yet still somewhat short of my Elise OTL tube amp.
> 
> Anyway I've also got the Gustard X12 DAC and am wondering if anybody could chime in about any advantage of the Bifrost Miltibit _"Bimby"_ over the X12?


 
 Not sure about the Bimby, but I find I do prefer my DIYinHK PCM1702 multibit DAC over the X12.  The imaging is noticeably better to my ears, it sounds more 3D and I can "hear the silence" in the space between the instruments better than with the SD DACs.  (I.e. sound sorurces are better spatially isolated and located.)  While it's not better in every way, I find the better imaging more entertaining.


----------



## audioholicx8x

Note: I have these with the stock op-amps from massdrop.
 Hi, I had this amp for a while now and it's been serving very well until a week a ago when I started hearing popping noises to both cups only when I turn the amp on . I don't hear anything when I plug/unplug my headphones and also nothing when I turn it off. But, once It shuts off completely (after 5 seconds or so), I hear the popping noise again when I turn it on. Also no popping of any sort while playing any music, video playback or gaming. Here's what I tried to do (and it didn't work at all):
 -Turn it on without inputs, so I'm sure it is the amp not the dac.
 -Turn it on without inputs and with all dip\gain switches off.
 -I opened the top led to check if there's any internal damage and I found nothing.
 -I changed the voltages from 110v to 220v.
  My question is will this pop destroy my headphones ? if it will, can I avoid such a horrifying fate by pluging the headphones while the amp is on? 
 please help


----------



## PWGuy

decentlevi said:


> Hi guys, I finally got the chance to try a Gustard H10 amp earlier this summer at a meet in SF and I was definitely impressed! It seemed to have better impact and overall fidelity than the Liquid Carbon amp... yet still somewhat short of my Elise OTL tube amp.
> 
> Anyway I've also got the Gustard X12 DAC and am wondering if anybody could chime in about any advantage of the Bifrost Miltibit _"Bimby"_ over the X12?


 

 I'm looking for the same exact comparison!  Anyone!?


----------



## PWGuy

tommo21 said:


> I was unfortunate that my H10 blew up a couple of weeks a go, but I got lucky and bought a second hand Schiit Valhalla 2 the next day, and I have to tell you that even though I was very satisfied with my Burson op-amped H10, the Valhalla 2 is better for me. I felt the H10 got a little dark(slightly veiled compared to the Valhalla 2) at times and lost some detail and clarity from upper mids and up to the treble range. The Valhalla uses tubes, but it's not as tube-sounding as other tube amps I've tried. It's for me and my taste better than the H10. I feel it's got a little bit more of everything, not by a mile, but enough for me to notice it already on first listen. I also believe changing the tubes gives more of a change than rolling op-amps in the H10. Just my 2 cents..


 

 Interesting .. assume you had the big red Burson V5s and not the newer, smaller Bursons?  How's the bass impact and quality?
  
 I'm considering selling my H10 to fund a Schitt amp but only if it's a better solution than what I have - H10 with Burson V5s full boat.  Bass is key for me, though - I have to boost the bass EQ levels in FooBar even with the H10 but it sounds so amazing with my Alpha Prime closed-back headphones!


----------



## DecentLevi

@PWGuy you're in luck! I've now owned the X12, Bimby and Mimby (Bifrost Multibit and Modi Multibit), and here's snippets of my impressions from another thread:
  
Initial impressions with Bimby:
 Several A/B comparisons with my former Gustard X12 DAC reveal the Bimby has more micro-detail and organic / layered bass, and without being colored, has a larger / more expansive soundstage! Yaaay!! Looks like all my focus on multibit / R2R DACs vs. Delta Sigma have been well placed!
  
Later impressions:
 After just finishing a multiple A/B critical listening comparison of my delta-sigma (DS) vs. multibit (R2R) DAC, the differences I've notices were huge and far encompassing. Generally you get a much more organic / lifelike sound with larger soundstage & imaging that's much more 'out of your head', and better defined layers - making the delta sigma DAC sound 'brittle' and artificial after listening to the DS.
  
 (somewhat later)
 A seasoned industry insider / hobbyist told me the Bimby DAC is slightly darker tonality, as well as the Elise and HD 650 (he's tried my Elise also). I'm sure he's mistaken on the Elise amp, but I'll tell ya my ears yearning for more detail / linearity. I like the Bimby enough to keep it though for it's realism, but it seems as if this pairing is dark enough to oust the HD 650 for now, which is also darker than neutral, even with my mod.
  
 My Bimby not only seems dark-ish, but also a smidget too euphonic / colored which further hampers its' pairing with the Elise (making it double colored), necessitating 'colder' / brighter sounding tubes, which may prove a struggle. I bought this DAC new and still have a few days in the 14 day return period. 
  
Initial impressions with Mimby:
 Compared to my Gustard X12, it’s a big step up! Markedly improved transient response (slam of the dynamics), more ‘focued’ imaging, more detailed, and a superb realism. Everything sounds absolutely engulfing / enveloping, tonally perfect, crisp, yet clear and clean as a whistle. Yet seems slightly musical and/or euphonic. Compared to the Bimby at twice the price, this has better dynamics / clarity and slightly less euphonic (a good thing), while the Bimby has slightly better imaging and soundstage.
  
 Sounds like a $1,000+ DAC, all crammed into a tiny little box for several hundred! Absolutely the most staggering price to performance of a DAC made to date. Only downside yet is soundstage seems slightly small. And this is only without burn-in and using mid-tier tubes!"
  
Update several days later:
 My initial impressions remain unchanged, and I really think the Mimby is a game changer, and an unwavering performer! It does seem to have slightly less soundstage and ability to handle multi-layered bass than the Bimby, but that is more than made up for by its' vastly improved transient response, more neutral / less colored and cleaner sound sig. Yet my tastes still yearn for a slightly dryer / colder sound, so I may still compare other multibits such as the Gumby at some point. But for now I'm absolutely satisfied with this little DAC. Also being a former owner of the Modi 1, this is an astronomical step forward! (mainly in resolution and realism)


----------



## PWGuy

decentlevi said:


> @PWGuy you're in luck! I've now owned the X12, Bimby and Mimby (Bifrost Multibit and Modi Multibit), and here's snippets of my impressions from another thread:
> 
> Initial impressions with Bimby:
> Several A/B comparisons with my former Gustard X12 DAC reveal the Bimby has more micro-detail and organic / layered bass, and without being colored, has a larger / more expansive soundstage! Yaaay!! Looks like all my focus on multibit / R2R DACs vs. Delta Sigma have been well placed!
> ...


 

 So it sounds like Bimby vs. X12 - the verdict is the Bimby wins out in every overall category?  If not, where did the X12 shine through?  And Mimby _better or a "big step-up"_ from the X12!?  I don't listen to DSD and not really interested in the format, so I am considering jumping ship to R2R.


----------



## DecentLevi

If anything, I _may _have enjoyed electronic music slightly more on the X12, other than that, the  Bimby was better in every category except neutrality and dynamics, but those two are something the make the Mimby better, even though it's the smallest / cheapest of these. R2R / multibit has little to do with DSD - rather it's a very different way of converting digital to analogue for all formats (WAV, MP3, AAC, DSD, etc.), with a result that is universally heralded as sounding more lifelike / analogue.


----------



## PWGuy

decentlevi said:


> If anything, I _may _have enjoyed electronic music slightly more on the X12, other than that, the  Bimby was better in every category except neutrality and dynamics, but those two are something the make the Mimby better, even though it's the smallest / cheapest of these. R2R / multibit has little to do with DSD - rather it's a very different way of converting digital to analogue for all formats (WAV, MP3, AAC, DSD, etc.), with a result that is universally heralded as sounding more lifelike / analogue.


 

 Understand the difference between DSD and R2R - I think I was unclear in my original comment.  My point was that I don't leverage the capabilities the X12 offers with DSD as a format - I simply/only use PCM (CD rips) and foresee going the DSD route as I don't listen except while working when able.  Thanks for the details and comparisons!!


----------



## Holypal

Hello. I have AKG K7xx, and a HD650 soon. I really want to buy a good amp, and now choose between Schiit Asgard 2 and Gustard H10.
  
 Which one would you prefer? Thanks.


----------



## wwmhf

holypal said:


> Hello. I have AKG K7xx, and a HD650 soon. I really want to buy a good amp, and now choose between Schiit Asgard 2 and Gustard H10.
> 
> Which one would you prefer? Thanks.


 
  
 I do not have Schiit Asgard 2, but I can enjoy music from Gustard H10 through either K7xx and HD650 even though I prefer HD650 on my tube amps more.


----------



## fritobugger

holypal said:


> Hello. I have AKG K7xx, and a HD650 soon. I really want to buy a good amp, and now choose between Schiit Asgard 2 and Gustard H10.
> 
> Which one would you prefer? Thanks.


 
  
 I had the K7XX and it sounded very good out of the H10.  I did not try it with the Asgard 2.


----------



## lenroot77

fritobugger said:


> I had the K7XX and it sounded very good out of the H10.  I did not try it with the Asgard 2.




I also enjoyed the k7xx's with the Gustard. I think the Gustard will give you a little more flexibility to tweak the sound by swapping op amps too. Also should u go with a planar in the future you will be all set with the Gustard. It's a lot of bang for the buck!


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

Good morning everyone. I realized that the Gustard DAC X-12 has two XLR outputs that seems to drive powered speakers.I wanted to get the impressions of other X-12 owners in reference to the quality of the X-12's XLR output. Is that section meant to be used as an output for speakers? I'm curious because I assumed the X12 was just a DAC.

@DecentLevi, were you using the Gustard U12's driver for the X12 or is there a X12 driver out now?


----------



## DecentLevi

DACs have a line out, which allow them to be played on any amp such as headphone or speaker amp, so an amplified speaker would be a native pairing.
  
 I'm actually planning to sell my X12 DAC now that I have the Mimby, which really blows it away for less than half the price. But first I will try to compare it's performance with a DSD vs. PCM on the Mimby - if I can figure out how to set that up on my PC.  
  
 If someone wants a perfectly maintained X12 for about $450, send me a PM.
  
 For a USB signal cleaner I've been using the Schiit Wyrd, and the driver for the X12 has been the XMOS driver which comes with it (ASIO direct tunnel codec), but have updated to the latest version


----------



## MachineGunz

decentlevi said:


> DACs have a line out, which allow them to be played on any amp such as headphone or speaker amp, so an amplified speaker would be a native pairing.
> 
> I'm actually planning to sell my X12 DAC now that I have the Mimby, which really blows it away for less than half the price. But first I will try to compare it's performance with a DSD vs. PCM on the Mimby - if I can figure out how to set that up on my PC.
> 
> ...


 
 The modi Multibit is better than the X12?
  
 I currently have the H10 and an Odac, I have been thinking about upgrading my dac.
  
 Can you please compare the mimby and the x12?


----------



## DecentLevi

machinegunz said:


> The modi Multibit is better than the X12?
> 
> I currently have the H10 and an Odac, I have been thinking about upgrading my dac.
> 
> Can you please compare the mimby and the x12?


 
 Yup I'd without a doubt put the Mimby as far supreior to the X12 DAC, mostly in realism and imaging.... and at less than half the cost and around 1/12th the size. It's an excellent introduction to the world of R2R / multibit DACs which generally provide a more lifelike sound than delta-sigma DAC's.
 See my comparison at the top of this page 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 PS- O2 and ODAC are bottom of the barrel, extremely sub-par performers, as well as their Element, which I have tried


----------



## Holypal

Hi. Do you consider Schiit Modi Multibit + Gustard H10 a good combination?  Thanks.


----------



## DecentLevi

Having only tried these two separately, I'd venture to say that certainly these two would pair well together! Absolutely no reason not. The slightly sweet yet detailed and sharp flavor of the Mimby + the dynamic yet slightly sterile sound of the H10 should work like a charm together.


----------



## Sajakhaki

holypal said:


> Hi. Do you consider Schiit Modi Multibit + Gustard H10 a good combination?  Thanks.




Yes, it is a very good combo especially with planars.


----------



## fritobugger

holypal said:


> Hi. Do you consider Schiit Modi Multibit + Gustard H10 a good combination?  Thanks.


 
 I tell you after next week.


----------



## MachineGunz

fritobugger said:


> I tell you after next week.


 
 I am looking for your response as well!


----------



## DecentLevi

The Mimby DAC needs about 24 hrs. burn-in for the bass to develop. I also recommend using the WASAPI Exclusive codec (either auto-installs or can be downloaded from Schiit's drivers page) and upsampling to 192khz / 24 bits which is it's maximum encoding rate; with audio players that support upsampling such as Fubar or Aimp, which is the one I use


----------



## MenacingTuba

1 year Gustard owner reporting: I decided to upgrade the op amps to LT1358's, and one (back left) lit on fire since I think stupidly put it in backwards.  Now the left channel hums (only slightly noticeable when using it at preferred volumes and there's a tiny bit of damage to the AMP socket.  I could not loosen one of the back screws to remove the bottom to see if the underside is damaged.  I'm wondering if it is possible to repair it. 
  

  
 I was not using it for music since it does not pair well with my T90's (too bright and harsh), but needed the power for movies and games since my Audiolab M-DAC is too weak.  Currently I am using my grandpa's self built Heathkit AA-1219 which sounds better, but it's hideous and takes up too much space.


----------



## wwmhf

menacingtuba said:


> 1 year Gustard owner reporting: I decided to upgrade the op amps to LT1358's, and one (back left) lit on fire since I think stupidly put it in backwards.  Now the left channel hums (only slightly noticeable when using it at preferred volumes and there's a tiny bit of damage to the AMP socket.  I could not loosen one of the back screws to remove the bottom to see if the underside is damaged.  I'm wondering if it is possible to repair it.
> 
> 
> 
> I was not using it for music since it does not pair well with my T90's (too bright and harsh), but needed the power for movies and games since my Audiolab M-DAC is too weak.  Currently I am using my grandpa's self built Heathkit AA-1219 which sounds better, but it's hideous and takes up too much space.


 
  
 Yes, Gastard is using those two opamps in a way too aggressive. One of my H10 burnt out a pair of Burson's opamp. My solution for now is to take off the cover. So far so good in this way, but you have to be careful about the safety!!!


----------



## lenroot77

I have a h10 for sale. Pm me for details!

Sold


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

What is a fully stock Gustard Dac X12 and Gustard H10 going for? They are both in solid condition. I'm asking because I intend to sell both and buy a Schiit Jotunheim.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Alright, am I using my Gustard H10 amp correctly?  
  
 For my Philips SHP-9500, i turn on -6 DB since these require nothing to power, then i crank the knob ovver to 3-4pm... sounds lovely... but should I leave DB off entirely and just crank it at noon to 1pm? or does it matter?
  
  
 I know my Schiit Fulla makes my Fostex T20RP MK3 have deeper bass than the Gustard H10 does, which makes no sense to me... I messed with DB's, etc... some things just pair perfectly I guess and I got lucky on that combo?


----------



## DecentLevi

What I've discovered is that a search on eBay can be a good source to get the general market value of an item.
  
 Also has anyone else gotten their Mimby (mod 2 Multibit) yet... what's your take on the sound, and its' pairing with the H10?


----------



## ZekeAdebayo

Selling a Gustard H10 and Gustard Dac X12. Both are in very good condition. Please pm me if interested and I'll supply you with details.


----------



## franzdom

What is the point of balanced in? I don't see a balanced out plug.


----------



## audioholicx8x

I've Been wondering about this before I even bought one. I hope someone shed a light on this matter.


----------



## olek

Because balanced input is more resistant to noise and less sensitive to cable quality compared to unbalanced - same reasons why pro grade equipment always uses balanced interconnects, even if they never use balanced headphone jacks.
  
 "100% balanced or bust" became a religion in audiophile community fairly recently, and is not yet universally accepted.


----------



## audioholicx8x

thanks for explaining


----------



## manishex

What's a good amp upgrade from the Gustard H-10 with Bursons for the LCD-3?


----------



## nicoragua

What source are you using?


----------



## manishex

nicoragua said:


> What source are you using?


 
 Audio-GD SA-1.32


----------



## LiFan

Hi, guys
  
 I've just bought a secondhand HE-500 almost in mint condition. First thing I did I connected them to my Gustard H-10 and Gustard X10. Everything is OK - I love the sound. But...the loudness level I preffer can be achieved when the level knob is in 5PM, almost at the amp limit. Is it OK for my rig? Should I use the + gain switch on the back if I want louder sound? To compare, when I listen my ATH-AD1000X
 the level knob is 11-12 position.
  
 Thanks for your opinion(s)


----------



## bwcgrx

lifan said:


> Hi, guys
> 
> I've just bought a secondhand HE-500 almost in mint condition. First thing I did I connected them to my Gustard H-10 and Gustard X10. Everything is OK - I love the sound. But...the loudness level I preffer can be achieved when the level knob is in 5PM, almost at the amp limit. Is it OK for my rig? Should I use the + gain switch on the back if I want louder sound? To compare, when I listen my ATH-AD1000X
> the level knob is 11-12 position.
> ...


 
  
 I run my H10 at +6 gain and HE-400 are generally good at anywhere from the 9 to 1 o'clock position, depending on the music.  The HE-500 may be harder to drive than the HE-400 however.


----------



## LiFan

bwcgrx said:


> I run my H10 at +6 gain and HE-400 are generally good at anywhere from the 9 to 1 o'clock position, depending on the music.  The HE-500 may be harder to drive than the HE-400 however.


 
 Thank you, *bwcgrx*
  
 I'll try gain switch. It's interesting that my Highscreen Boost3 smartphone provides the same sound level as H-10 does.


----------



## MGbert

lifan said:


> Thank you, *bwcgrx*
> 
> I'll try gain switch. It's interesting that my Highscreen Boost3 smartphone provides the same sound level as H-10 does.


 

 Turn off the H-10 before moving dip switches.  Learned from experience.


----------



## LiFan

mgbert said:


> Turn off the H-10 before moving dip switches.  Learned from experience.


 
 Thanks for warning. What was your experience I wonder?


----------



## MGbert

lifan said:


> Thanks for warning. What was your experience I wonder?


 

 No sound after I did it with power on.  Thought I blew something in the amp.  Cycled off then on, and sound restored.  The fact that mine came with no manual of any description meant I had no warning about that.  Darn near caused a heart attack!


----------



## LiFan

mgbert said:


> No sound after I did it with power on.  Thought I blew something in the amp.  Cycled off then on, and sound restored.  The fact that mine came with no manual of any description meant I had no warning about that. * Darn near caused a heart attack!*


 
 O-oh! I can imagine. As to the manual my amp came from China with no one either. I suppose it does not exist at all.


----------



## nicoragua

lifan said:


> Hi, guys
> 
> I've just bought a secondhand HE-500 almost in mint condition. First thing I did I connected them to my Gustard H-10 and Gustard X10. Everything is OK - I love the sound. But...the loudness level I preffer can be achieved when the level knob is in 5PM, almost at the amp limit. Is it OK for my rig? Should I use the + gain switch on the back if I want louder sound? To compare, when I listen my ATH-AD1000X
> the level knob is 11-12 position.
> ...




Be sure you have the balance switch down, its changes the volume. I had to fiddle around a bit to find the right settings.now I'm +6db always around 12pm, with an HE-560.


----------



## LiFan

nicoragua said:


> Be sure you have the* balance switch down*, its changes the volume. I had to fiddle around a bit to find the right settings.now I'm +6db always around 12pm, with an HE-560.


 
 OK, it is. 
 Will try +6db gain switch.
 Thank you, amigo


----------



## Mingus Ah Um

nicoragua said:


> Be sure you have the balance switch down, its changes the volume. I had to fiddle around a bit to find the right settings.now I'm +6db always around 12pm, with an HE-560.


 
 I bought the H10 about a month ago.  I had the same problem for about 3 days and couldn't figure out why I was having to crank the volume so high.  Then I remembered the gain switches on the back and now I'm routinely at 12 o'clock with my HE-560's as well.  Nice to hear someone else's experience to confirm mine.


----------



## naif1985

Hi everyone .i am planing to buy the h10. I need a 200$ dac that will be good with it.

Also I'm wondering if I sum who gut som extra $$ .will the a20h. Bee better than the h10 + x12 ?

Sorry for my bad English 


My headphones are he400 and hd700


----------



## Holypal

naif1985 said:


> Hi everyone .i am planing to buy the h10. I need a 200$ dac that will be good with it.
> 
> Also I'm wondering if I sum who gut som extra $$ .will the a20h. Bee better than the h10 + x12 ?
> 
> ...




If you plan to use balanced cables, then A20H is better.


----------



## simon740

Hello,
 next week I get the H10 and now I'm looking for a suitable DAC. Until now I had Rega DAC-R, Naim DAC V1 and Aune S16. The most I liked the sound of Aune S16. Headphones are HE-560

  
 greetings,
 Simon


----------



## DecentLevi

My vote goes to the Mimby (Modi 2 multibit) DAC. It pushes far above it's modest price point, and is especially affordable for an R2R / multibit DAC. Though I've recently discovered it performs amazingly better with USB components before it such as Wyrd USB signal cleaner and Singxer SU-1 USB interface / reclocker together via RCA coax cable into the Mimby.
 Any others already tried the pairing with their H10?


----------



## wwmhf

I like SMSL M8. Mine can up-sample my music files to DSD128. Mine is an older version, I read on the internet that the newer version can up-sample to DSD256. It scales well with a better power supply which I made myself. Its usb interface is fairly usable, but I guess better USB bridges such as Singxer SU-1 can make sound even better.


----------



## Holypal

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> next week I get the H10 and now I'm looking for a suitable DAC. Until now I had Rega DAC-R, Naim DAC V1 and Aune S16. The most I liked the sound of Aune S16. Headphones are HE-560
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's better to use balanced XLR input for the H10. So maybe find a DAC with balanced out, usually in XLR connectors.


----------



## simon740

holypal said:


> It's better to use balanced XLR input for the H10. So maybe find a DAC with balanced out, usually in XLR connectors.


 
 This is exactly I'm looking for. Aune S16, for example have XLR out. 
 or perhaps Aune S6? Gustard X12 is interesting, but I'm afraid it will be too aggressive for my taste.
 It is the complete opposite of Aune S16. 
 A20H I dream about, but I currently can not afford it matter that I have now bought the HE-560 and H10. 
 I must wait....


----------



## Holypal

simon740 said:


> This is exactly I'm looking for. Aune S16, for example have XLR out.
> or perhaps Aune S6? Gustard X12 is interesting, but I'm afraid it will be too aggressive for my taste.
> It is the complete opposite of Aune S16.
> A20H I dream about, but I currently can not afford it matter that I have now bought the HE-560 and H10.
> I must wait....


 

 I found a few cheaper ones:
 1) Matrix Mini-i, 2 x AD1955 D/A DAC
 2) TempoTec Fantasia, it has different versions with dac AK4399, AK4490, PCM1795
 3) Xduoo XD-06, 2* WM8741


----------



## ginetto61

holypal said:


> I found a few cheaper ones:
> *1) Matrix Mini-i, 2 x AD1955 D/A DAC*
> 2) TempoTec Fantasia, it has different versions with dac AK4399, AK4490, PCM1795
> 3) Xduoo XD-06, 2* WM8741


 
  
 the ad1955 is good enough to be used in the Bricasti Design M1 D/A converter.


----------



## Rob Allan

Sadly not getting any time to use my H10 / M8 if anyone in the UK is after one at a bargain tastic price with bursons mine just went up on Ebay.
  
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=291984661195#ht_500wt_1156
  
 EDIT: M8 also on the bay now.
  
 Have fun guys.
  
 Rob


----------



## Rob Allan

appologies for posting an ebay link please stop 
  
 Have fun.
  
 Rob


----------



## Namtar

Just a quick question that I haven't seen an answer to - it was asked much earlier in the thread however:   Has anyone been able to compare the H10 with the Mjolnir 2 using HE-560s?  
  
 I'm wondering if the consensus would be to get the H10 or if saving up for the Mojo2 would be better.


----------



## wwmhf

Mojo2 and Mjolnir 2 are two different things. 
  
 Mjolnir 2 is a more advanced amp than H10, and I think it can sound better than H10 assuming that the source and phone are capable enough.


----------



## simon740

Hello,
  
 can anyone tell me how to set on Gustard H10, if I wanna use unbalanced inputs? And what about gain for HE-560?
 +6? 
  
 regards,
 Simon


----------



## wwmhf

I do not have HE-560, but I think gain +6 is a good start. If I remember it correctly, many users set the gain of H10 to +6.


----------



## Mingus Ah Um

simon740 said:


> Hello,
> 
> can anyone tell me how to set on Gustard H10, if I wanna use unbalanced inputs? And what about gain for HE-560?
> +6?
> ...


 
 +6.  I have the 560's and use the +6 gain.  It's just right for me.


----------



## Namtar

Well, just purchased a Gustard H10.  Couldn't resist.   I figure if I ever need more juice for a balanced config I'll get a set of dual HA200 monoblocks or the NFB-1AMP  XD.     Anyways replacing my Magni 2 Uber for now and the next purchase will be another set of orthos (I'm too lazy to want to self-mod the T50rp-mk3).  Most likely the HE-560s - after I pay off the Gustard and my xmas purchases for the Mrs.


----------



## lucianpescaru

Opamps... haven't got the time to check the whole thread so sorry if it has been answered before.
  
 2 duals for the frontend (NE5532) and 2 single (OPA134) for the driver/voltage gain stage?


----------



## Resorob

Hi All,
  
 I just found this thread recently, I am currently using a Little Dot MkIII and enjoy listening to it very much, but I am always looking to improve without spending a fortune.
 The fortune I like to spend on new and pre-loved vinyl 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 But the I found this Gustard H10 which seems like a pretty well constructed amp, but would if offer an improvement over my Little Dot?
 My current set of cans are the Sennheiser HD280 Pro, I cannot use open back cans, since I normally listen music when members of the family are watching tv.
  
 Thanks for your feedback.
 Rob.


----------



## Sdmark

I've had this wonderful Gustard HP amp for several months now, maybe 6 or so and I really enjoy the excellent sound that is capable of delivering. I find that my favorite phones on it are AKG K7XX. Excellent details, large wide soundstage, and very good bass all combine for a wonderful listening experience. 

The only issue that I have with it is that it takes a fairly good while to warm up to sound it's best. It sounds significantly better once it's had juice flowing for a 1/2 hour (or more), similar to my extraordinary Class A Threshold T-100 home power amp did. While this is not a major problem, there are times when my schedule is such that what I really want to do is listen to music now, not later, and I find myself using my iPhone/AQ Dragonfly with Earsonics SM64s more & more, as much for convenience as for the sonic goodness of the Earsonics.

Not making any sort of decision now, but if anyone has suggestions about another amp of similar signature to Gustard without the warmup necessary, I'd appreciate it.


----------



## Resorob

Thanks for the quick feedback Sdmark.
 I like what you write about the Gustard H10, the warm up is no issue to me, I just flick the switch before listening when I am going to walk the dog, so it is warmed up when I want to listen, I have to do the same with my tube amps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and also noticed the same behavior on my trusty Luxman L430 SS amplifier.
 Someone more knowledgable than myself taught me long ago that equipment sounds best when at body temperature.
 I think I will buy it and let you know how it turns out.
  
 Musical regards.


----------



## snellemin

Got to messing around with the Gustard and found some crazy heat coming out of it.  Added pennies  and later changed to memory copper sinks.
  
 First try with thermal 3M foam tape and pennies.  

  
 Switch over to memory heat sinks on the board.


----------



## Holypal

snellemin said:


> Got to messing around with the Gustard and found some crazy heat coming out of it.  Added pennies  and later changed to memory copper sinks.
> 
> First try with thermal 3M foam tape and pennies.
> 
> Switch over to memory heat sinks on the board.


 
  
  
 What's that op-amp you use?


----------



## snellemin

holypal said:


> What's that op-amp you use?


 
 It's the Burson's V4 single and duals.


----------



## sunneebear

snellemin said:


> Got to messing around with the Gustard and found some crazy heat coming out of it.  Added pennies  and later changed to memory copper sinks.
> 
> First try with thermal 3M foam tape and pennies.


 
  
  
 You need to show Burson this and let them know how lame their idea was to seal up the V5's.  
  
 Great idea putting the heat sinks on the regulators.


----------



## snellemin

sunneebear said:


> You need to show Burson this and let them know how lame their idea was to seal up the V5's.
> 
> Great idea putting the heat sinks on the regulators.


 
 Nothing wrong with the Burson being capped.  I have no heat problems with my V5's in the Parasound's.  It's the design of the Gustard that is questionable.  The V4 singles in the Gustard is barely warm.  The regulators in the Gustard are not up to the task.  Simple fix would be adding another set fets and/or better heatsinking.  Other then that, it's a very nice sounding amp with the V4's installed.


----------



## sunneebear

snellemin said:


> Nothing wrong with the Burson being capped.  I have no heat problems with my V5's in the Parasound's.  It's the design of the Gustard that is questionable.  The V4 singles in the Gustard is barely warm.  The regulators in the Gustard are not up to the task.  Simple fix would be adding another set fets and/or better heatsinking.  Other then that, it's a very nice sounding amp with the V4's installed.


 
 I am sure you are right but it was still lame of them to approach some of us on this thread to try the V5 in the H10.  Then there's that voltage debacle.


----------



## tvnosaint

They do improve the sound in a not so small way. My replacements have not had an issue that said . If burson were responsible for the flurry of interest in the v5s they should have thoroughly tested the process


----------



## Resorob

Dropped the hammer, cut the knot, I ordered a Gustard H10 off eBay today, it should arrive somewhere between Monday through Wednesday next week.
 So this entitles me to membership of this club I gather 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You are all very interested in what DAC people use, well none actually.
 I went back to the Dark Side of the Force aka Vinyl in 2014 and have not bought nor listened to a single CD since then.
 At present I use a Micro Seiki BL21 turntable Mission 774 LC tonearm, Grado Prestige Gold Cart and a Muffsy RIAA stage.
 Future improvements will be a Lenco L-78 turntable with PTP4 modification, baltic birch 16 kilograms plinth, an Origin Live Zephyr tonearm. A Denon DL103 Paradox Pulse will ride in the Zephyr tonearm, and the tonearm will have the Pete Riggle VTAF unit fitted (VerTical Adjustment on the Fly). To the Muffsy an MC Head preamp will be connected.
 At present I am also constructing a Phono stage with tubes.
 I still have a Pioneer PD S-707 (Stable Platter) and Zhaolu DAC which I might get off the attic during burn in of the Gustard H10, from experience I know that burning in makes a world of difference.
 In the past I owned a Jungson ja-88d model 09, a massive 2 x 80 Watts Class A amplifier, built like a tank.
 The thing sounded nothing like a good amp for the first 80 hours after that and while listening, it seemed like someone flicked a switch and the thing turned into a really, but really good amp, regardless of the cost.
  
 I will let you know how I fare with the Gustard.
 Should you have an Instagram account and like pictures, you can find me there under "Meerderheid" which is Dutch for the Majority


----------



## mandrake50

Hard to believe "the majority" have like $30K in their turntable... or plan to.


----------



## Resorob

I get your drift mandrake50, but I like enjoying the best possible sound without breaking the bank, it is not a big accomplishment to buy everything if sufficient funds exist and knowledge is absent. So I like building stuff, like the big and heavy Lenco and the tube Phono stage currently under construction. Current projects include a rebuild to living room friendly version of my 807 SE tube amplifier. I have some speakers to build with extremely low WAF, the cabinets should accommodate a pair of Audio Nirvana 12" Fullrange speakers.
 I do believe in keeping vinyl spotlessly clean to prevent static and unnecessary clics and pops, I even clean new vinyl before playing, it can be quite noisy before cleaning.
 I use a Clearaudio Smart Matrix and the best cleaning fluid I came across up to now, Vinylzyme Gold Concentrate bij Todd the Vinyl Junkie, great stuff.
 Look forward very much to receiving the Gustard H10.


----------



## fritobugger

resorob said:


> Dropped the hammer, cut the knot, I ordered a Gustard H10 off eBay today, it should arrive somewhere between Monday through Wednesday next week.
> So this entitles me to membership of this club I gather :wink_face:
> 
> You are all very interested in what DAC people use, well none actually.
> ...




I use an SMSL M8 DAC. Slightly bright DAC with slightly warm amp


----------



## sikninjaskillz

I know it's been posted that it's not ideal, and probably not powerful enough, but has anyone actually tried the h10 with hifiman he-6? There are less powerful tube amps like Ember ii people seem to like.


----------



## mandrake50

I took my H10 using a Pulse Xfinity ad a DAC to three different local meets. In each case there was someone there with a pair of HE6 phones. These are usually pretty small meets so one occasion I had the HE 6 for about an hour. I personally thought that is did a good job driving the headphones. Several others, including the owner (who used  a Cavalli tube amp.. I can't remember the model, but it was an earlier amp built for a kit. He also agreed that the H10 did a credible job with the HE6. Common wisdom says the HE6 needs gobs of power to sound good. Maybe my idea of good is different, or perhaps I don't require the sound pressure levels that others do, but I wouldn't avoid the H10 he6 combination.


----------



## sikninjaskillz

Thanks for the input. I'm not typically a loud listener and I just find the H10 such a good amp w/ the Burson v5 upgrade... Now if I can find a He-6, seem to be rare now that I'm looking.


----------



## mandrake50

sikninjaskillz said:


> Thanks for the input. I'm not typically a loud listener and I just find the H10 such a good amp w/ the Burson v5 upgrade... Now if I can find a He-6, seem to be rare now that I'm looking.


 

 Just as a data point, I also have the full boat V5s in my H10.


----------



## sikninjaskillz

Thanks again!


----------



## PWGuy

I have an extra Burson V5S-D op-amp if someone needs one - message me if interested.  No lifetime warranty on this as it was given to me as an extra by Burson some time ago.


----------



## Resorob

My Gustard was waiting for me, coming home from a business trip.
 The eBay seller indicated delivery from Monday through Wednesday (today, so that was spot on). The amp looks really nice, with a nice feel on the volume knob. I tested it, sound was coming from it, it was silent, no hum nor hiss. I connected a CD player and a pair of headphones, I will let it play some music, before listening and judging.
  
 I will keep you posted.
 Exciting


----------



## mandrake50

Hey folks,
 Does anyone know if Burson is still producing and selling the V5 opamps?  I had a PM asking the question, as the web page for them does not allow them to be added to the cart/order section.  V5i can be ordered ( I think).
  
 Thanks.


----------



## raoultrifan

Just press the "Add to cart" button and try ignoring the greyed out drop-box; it should work as expected.


----------



## tvnosaint

You might try here. Lquite a few have moved on from the h10


----------



## l1ghtm4st3r

tvnosaint said:


> You might try here. Lquite a few have moved on from the h10


 
 On to?


----------



## tvnosaint

Everything. I got an LC and totl tubes for my old lyr which actually made it better to my ears . Mind you those tubes usually go for the same cost as an h10. H10 is solid. People are addicted to buying new stuff. I need to plug mine back in to use with my dark headphones for it's easy presentation. It's going up for sale shortly there after as I'm looking for an end game amp. The last piece . I haven't bought headphone gear for a year now.


----------



## yotsuffy

Hi!
 I have a few *heat questions* about Gustard H10 + Burson V5-OPA-S/D
 (+6dB gain, unbal, volume @12-13)
  
*With the four V5 installed:*
 - is it safe to keep the H10 closed while playing or is it recommended/required to keep it opened?
 - Has anyone tried to drill holes in the top case with good airflow results?
 - Has anyone tried to put something on top to heatsink?
  
 Keeping it opened should be possible, but other options are welcome!


----------



## sunneebear

yotsuffy said:


> Hi!
> I have a few *heat questions* about Gustard H10 + Burson V5-OPA-S/D
> (+6dB gain, unbal, volume @12-13)
> 
> ...


 
 There have been a few post here about heat issues with the V5's.  I have the V4's and have run them for days non-stop burning in headphones with no issues.  The amp itself does get quite warm no matter what OPA.  Because of this I fear for the longevity of other components in the amp so I have put a few holes in the chassis for cooling.  @snellemin a page back on post #5208 showed how he heat sinked the V4's and voltage regulators, I followed his suit with my amp for maximum cooling.  It may not need it, but hey, a few degrees cooler couldn't hurt.


----------



## raoultrifan

H10 has +/-16V voltage, V5 has a max. of +/-15V, datasheet tests were done to +/-12V, so...it's not very safe I'd say, especially that some H10 from this thread got blown away. The SS V4 can be powered from +/-20V.


----------



## wwmhf

If the cover is closed, the single V5 might be OK, but watch out those two dual V5.


----------



## yotsuffy

sunneebear said:


> There have been a few post here about heat issues with the V5's.  I have the V4's and have run them for days non-stop burning in headphones with no issues.  The amp itself does get quite warm no matter what OPA.  Because of this I fear for the longevity of other components in the amp so I have put a few holes in the chassis for cooling.  @snellemin a page back on post #5208 showed how he heat sinked the V4's and voltage regulators, I followed his suit with my amp for maximum cooling.  It may not need it, but hey, a few degrees cooler couldn't hurt.


 

 I did see his post, though those are V4 and I have no idea how they differ with the V5 ^^!
 Also, I see this:
https://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-v5-ss-opamp-mod/
 (last pictures)
 Does anyone have/use that heatsink enclosure linker?


----------



## snellemin

yotsuffy said:


> I did see his post, though those are V4 and I have no idea how they differ with the V5 ^^!
> Also, I see this:
> https://www.bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-v5-ss-opamp-mod/
> (last pictures)
> Does anyone have/use that heatsink enclosure linker?


 
 In three of my amplifiers V4 to my ears are way better vs the V5, when it comes down to clean subbass reproduction. But the V5 has a permanent home in two preamps of mine.
  
 I didn't experience any overheating issues with the stock heatsink with the H10.  It's the regulators that you have to worry about.


----------



## yotsuffy

snellemin said:


> Got to messing around with the Gustard and found some crazy heat coming out of it.  Added pennies  and later changed to memory copper sinks.
> 
> First try with thermal 3M foam tape and pennies.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


snellemin said:


> In three of my amplifiers V4 to my ears are way better vs the V5, when it comes down to clean subbass reproduction. But the V5 has a permanent home in two preamps of mine.
> 
> I didn't experience any overheating issues with the stock heatsink with the H10.  It's the regulators that you have to worry about.


 
  
 I found second hand a H10 with the V5 and the tailored heat-sink - previous owner kept it opened when using it - so I don't know if I'll can enjoy the V4 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 By "the regulators", you mean the two you first covered with pennies and then with memory heatsinks? I measured the V5-OPA-Ds at +40°C (+104°F) and those regulators get hotter: I removed my thermometer when it reached its 50°C limit (122°F, within 5min). Do they get much hotter? Is it close to the maximum temperature they can handle? Did you get good result with those small heatsinks? Can you keep your H10 closed?
  





 
  
 ho and my H10 runs at 220V should it matter somehow!


----------



## manishex

Has anyone compared the full boat gustard with the cayin iha6?


----------



## snellemin

yotsuffy said:


> I found second hand a H10 with the V5 and the tailored heat-sink - previous owner kept it opened when using it - so I don't know if I'll can enjoy the V4
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You can keep the H10 closed with the heatsinks on the fets.
  
 Great find on a unit with Burson's already installed.


----------



## yotsuffy

snellemin said:


> You can keep the H10 closed with the heatsinks on the fets.
> 
> Great find on a unit with Burson's already installed.


 

 Ho nice!
 ty


----------



## Madman242

Does anyone know if the overheating/failure issue with the Burson V5 is mostly due to the duals, or are the singles affected as well?


----------



## raoultrifan

SS V5 are supposed to get powered from a max. voltage of +/-15V, per datasheet. H10 has about +/-16V, if I remember correctly, so some SS V5 opamps may "tolerate" this higher voltage, but other may not. Most likely, singles will tolerate the higher voltage better than duals because of the better internal airflow (fewer parts, only one PCB instead of 2).


----------



## sunneebear

Don't know if I remember correctly but with the voltage issue, didn't Burson make the V5's 17v now?


----------



## CoFire

sunneebear said:


> Don't know if I remember correctly but with the voltage issue, didn't Burson make the V5's 17v now?




From what I recall, Burson was sorting out V5's that operate at +/-17V, not actual V5's designed to work at higher voltages. I believe you had to mention to them the application upon purchase to get the sorted variety.


----------



## raoultrifan

Where's the link to purchase +/-17V SS V5 opamps then?
  
 AFAIK Burson did replaced "affected" V5 opamps with "special made" opamps created for H10 amplifier. Perhaps you could contact Burson repr. to provide you V5 opamps able to get installed in H10, but ordering directly from their website means getting +/-15V opamps.


----------



## wwmhf

madman242 said:


> Does anyone know if the overheating/failure issue with the Burson V5 is mostly due to the duals, or are the singles affected as well?


 
  
 That was what happened to me. I did not any problem with V5 singles, but the V5 doubles gave me troubles.


----------



## Madman242

wwmhf said:


> That was what happened to me. I did not any problem with V5 singles, but the V5 doubles gave me troubles.


 
 This is good to know. I was going to go full Sparko, but since the Sparkos singles aren't compatible with the H10, I'll use Bursons there instead. Hopefully they'll be ok.
  
 Burson was kind enough to throw in their custom heatsink even though I'm not buying the whole package. Very kind of them!


----------



## CoFire

raoultrifan said:


> Where's the link to purchase +/-17V SS V5 opamps then?
> 
> AFAIK Burson did replaced "affected" V5 opamps with "special made" opamps created for H10 amplifier. Perhaps you could contact Burson repr. to provide you V5 opamps able to get installed in H10, but ordering directly from their website means getting +/-15V opamps.




I was going to purchase an H10 with V5 full boat but was really concern about the V5's melting down. I contacted Burson and they would only warranty the V5 SS amps if bought from them even though the seller contacted them and they said they would honor the warranty upon sale. The "special made" V5's as I recall were voltage screened op amps that appeared to handle more power, 17V max. Essentially using manufacturing variation to pick up the good actors. The packaging on the V5's is more than likely what had doomed them. They get, melt the plastic encapsulated or turn it into a goo, this further reducing is thermal conductivity until you have an op amp wrapped with a thermal insulator. A bad design all around for running these near the voltage extents as the H10 does. Burson was offering a custom heat sink for the V5's used in an H10.

Some of these amps seem to last. Probably due to variation in both the H10 and V5's and I believe there was some correlation with melting op amps and running at gains other than +6 or +12. Those seemed to be the safe gains with V5 op amps. 

We went round and round in a discussion to where I was championing Burson honoring their lifetime warranty for V5 op amps purchased in an H10, eventually they said, "Product improvement is an ongoing process for us and we can't detail our internal production process and what difference is between each batch. If you purchase the V5 from us, then we can guarantee that it will now work in higher temperatures and that they can work under the 16.5V operating environment of the H10. They will work in all gain settings in the H10 and we will honour is lifetime warranty in case it fails. However, we have clearly stated that some existing V5 opamps may not work beyond its stated 15V and may not work in low gain applications. Hence you are to purchase a used V5 opamps, we can't guarantee is success in H10 and we can't honour its life-time warranty if it does not work given we have publically declared that those V5 may not work in those higher, temperature yet lower gain settings."

In the end, $200+ for op amps that may or may not burn out, that had to be shipped to Australia for replacement and are not transferable warranty wise just seems too risky. I guess to me, if older op amps were susceptible (though the seller said his were the screened variety), what's the big deal with honoring the warranty and replacing them with the current flavor of what's good if they do burn out. Instead, now you have a non transferable V5 op amp for H10 usage unless they are tracking serial numbers (which they give insight they don't) or you get a certificate that sticks with the op amp and is transferable. The cost for the V5's seems like a high premium for something that had debatable compatibility and a debatable warranty for resale which is almost culture it seems on head fi.

But I hear they sound great! Haha!


----------



## CoFire

Oh, I think someone asked for a link. 

https://bursonaudio.com/gustard-h10-v5-ss-opamp-mod/

This was sent to me by Burson's customer service.


----------



## Madman242

Confirmed with Burson that all new production V5s have slightly higher voltage tolerances and are compatible with the H10.


----------



## CoFire

madman242 said:


> Confirmed with Burson that all new production V5s have slightly higher voltage tolerances and are compatible with the H10.




That may be so but should that limit the warranty of second hand op amps? I guess that was my heartache in the end. That's good news but all doesn't change the second hand warranty issue.


----------



## Madman242

cofire said:


> That may be so but should that limit the warranty of second hand op amps? I guess that was my heartache in the end. That's good news but all doesn't change the second hand warranty issue.


 
 I agree it's not ideal, but it's not unusual either. Schiit for example has the same policy.


----------



## knowhatimean

I've been looking at this headphone amp thread, off & on, for sometime but I've only just recently taken the time to look at it's description a bit more carefully. The feature that really grabbed my attention was the amount of difference in gain settings that is provided.
  
 I do all of my headphone listening through my Home Audio System. I have only a few requirements that I need Headphone amplifier to do & I suppose the most important thing it needs to do is "just get out of the way & pass on the signal it's being provided" from my Equitech 1.5Q BPT line condition fed Auraliti PK100>Metrum Hex DAC>       >Audioquest NH (& soon, NO) headphones. (I gave up on my Senn.HD800 after several years upon realizing they aren't neutral enough to allow you to appreciate a dead silent Noisefloor without adding some kind of unnecessary headphone coloration to the music; It's not the Audio System's fault that most recorded music needs help) (Needless to say there's tons of music I wouldn't go near with a "Ten ft.
 pole;but enough of this HD800 "non-love")
  
 Back to the reason I'm finding the H10 interesting is the fact I don't need to add any gain to the signal my Metrum Hex DAC is normally feeding whatever HP amp I'm using, other than a way to add several db of gain I would prefer the volume increases to be very gradual. The -gain settings look very attractive to myself.
  
 The McCormack Micro Integrated Line Drive I'm using does a pretty respectable job at being able to reproduce micro inner soundstaging detail but I'm curious to see if being able to increase the amount of micro volume adjustment headroom might be able to bring to an already "scary quiet, exquisitely musically detailed" deep noisefloor.
  
 I realize that might be a lot to ask of a $400 headphone amplifier, but as I've already mentioned all it really needs to do is "Pass along all the signal work that's already been done". It might be worth "A leap of faith" to try this amp


----------



## snellemin

knowhatimean said:


> I've been looking at this headphone amp thread, off & on, for sometime but I've only just recently taken the time to look at it's description a bit more carefully. The feature that really grabbed my attention was the amount of difference in gain settings that is provided.
> 
> I do all of my headphone listening through my Home Audio System. I have only a few requirements that I need Headphone amplifier to do & I suppose the most important thing it needs to do is "just get out of the way & pass on the signal it's being provided" from my Equitech 1.5Q BPT line condition fed Auraliti PK100>Metrum Hex DAC>       >Audioquest NH (& soon, NO) headphones. (I gave up on my Senn.HD800 after several years upon realizing they aren't neutral enough to allow you to appreciate a dead silent Noisefloor without adding some kind of unnecessary headphone coloration to the music; It's not the Audio System's fault that most recorded music needs help) (Needless to say there's tons of music I wouldn't go near with a "Ten ft.
> pole;but enough of this HD800 "non-love")
> ...


 
 Why not just tap off your home audio speaker output for headphone use?  You already have all the hardware that suites your musical taste.


----------



## knowhatimean

snellemin said:


> knowhatimean said:
> 
> 
> > I've been looking at this headphone amp thread, off & on, for sometime but I've only just recently taken the time to look at it's description a bit more carefully. The feature that really grabbed my attention was the amount of difference in gain settings that is provided.
> ...


 
 It's never a matter of "tapping off" of any 'part' of my equipment; particularly if it isn't already a specifically dedicated existing function on those components (Which is one of the reasons you're using Components ,other than Preamplifiers;which are designed to perform multifunctions,that are designed to carry out 1 or 2 specific functions at best)
  
 It's not really a matter of how the hardware suits my tastes. It's a matter of whether they're able to perform the function I think may be better handled (& at a more precise level) by another piece of equipment that might allow me to make incrementally smaller volume adjustments . (The only other HP amp I might be interested in at this point is the Meier Corda Classic which uses a more sophisticated 64 stepped (small db increment) volume control ; Which is about $200 more; but still very interesting)
  
 Thanks for the suggestion (That doesn't really "fit" for myself) anyway ! (I may end up just using the McCormack as a preamp for my Magneplanar 2.7QR loudspeakers)


----------



## snellemin

knowhatimean said:


> It's never a matter of "tapping off" of any 'part' of my equipment; particularly if it isn't already a specifically dedicated existing function on those components (Which is one of the reasons you're using Components ,other than Preamplifiers;which are designed to perform multifunctions,that are designed to carry out 1 or 2 specific functions at best)
> 
> It's not really a matter of how the hardware suits my tastes. It's a matter of whether they're able to perform the function I think may be better handled (& at a more precise level) by another piece of equipment that might allow me to make incrementally smaller volume adjustments . (The only other HP amp I might be interested in at this point is the Meier Corda Classic which uses a more sophisticated 64 stepped (small db increment) volume control ; Which is about $200 more; but still very interesting)
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion (That doesn't really "fit" for myself) anyway ! (I may end up just using the McCormack as a preamp for my Magneplanar 2.7QR loudspeakers)


 
 I personally just swap my components around as I see fit.  My permanent hardware stays where they are at.  So I see your point of not wanting to tap off your amps.  
 The H10 does give you plenty of volume adjustments when messing with the gain settings on the rear of the unit.


----------



## knowhatimean

snellemin said:


> I personally just swap my components around as I see fit.  My permanent hardware stays where they are at.  So I see your point of not wanting to tap off your amps.
> The H10 does give you plenty of volume adjustments when messing with the gain settings on the rear of the unit.


 
 Having the choice of having a few inches of volume control "play" to find the ideal volume on basically every recording I own.( & I'm at least 95% sure of the recorded sound integrity of the music I'll listen to be confident that this ideal volume exists on them), is a Hell of a "perk" to have rather than having the normal 1/8" of "play" I normally have.
  
 I basically have the right component for the job (the Line Drive) , but it's 6 db low gain setting is still higher than I'd prefer to be using.
  
 I guess when you get spoiled by what you've discovered your playback system is capable of ,it's pretty difficult to settle for something that just a bit more "headroom" in taking you toward a new level (He,he,he.....but you know that's not going to stop you from continually looking to improve upon even that; Beethoven didn't write just 1 Symphony & then say " I'm Good ! " )


----------



## Madman242

My new H10 arrived today. I ordered directly from Gustard on TaoBao. It's still burning in (with Burson singles and Sparko duals) so no report on sound, but I just wanted to warn people about a possible QC issue. I'd recommend all users open the top up before powering up the amp. Mine was set to 220v. Also, the power switch was sticking. When I did open it, I soon realized the reason why. Six out of seven of the circuit board stand-offs had sheared off. I can only assume this was due to over tightening the screws. There's no way I'm going to send it back to China, and I didn't want to wait to order new stand-offs, so I just re-seated them all with some two-part epoxy. Fingers crossed.


----------



## wwmhf

madman242 said:


> My new H10 arrived today. I ordered directly from Gustard on TaoBao. It's still burning in (with Burson singles and Sparko duals) so no report on sound, but I just wanted to warn people about a possible QC issue. I'd recommend all users open the top up before powering up the amp. Mine was set to 220v. Also, the power switch was sticking. When I did open it, I soon realized the reason why. Six out of seven of the circuit board stand-offs had sheared off. I can only assume this was due to over tightening the screws. There's no way I'm going to send it back to China, and I didn't want to wait to order new stand-offs, so I just re-seated them all with some two-part epoxy. Fingers crossed.


 
  
 If I were you, I would watch out those epoxy bounds because of heat stress, H10 runs hot.


----------



## Madman242

wwmhf said:


> If I were you, I would watch out those epoxy bounds because of heat stress, H10 runs hot.


 
  
 Yeah, I considered that. The epoxy is rated for 150C, which is pretty hot. If it doesn't hold up I'll just order some new stand-offs. It'll be a pain getting the snapped off threads out though. They do stick out a little proud on the bottom, so you could probably unscrew them with pliers from underneath.


----------



## knowhatimean

madman242 said:


> wwmhf said:
> 
> 
> > If I were you, I would watch out those epoxy bounds because of heat stress, H10 runs hot.
> ...


 
 I forget on what page it was but someone here ordered some mountable heat sinks that I believe can be mounted externally to the sides of the H10 chasis. They should draw some of that heat away from the bottom enough that the epoxy can handle the heat build up from under the boards.
  
 Try typing in "Gustard H10 add on heat sinks" in the search box next to your membership name or icon !


----------



## Madman242

knowhatimean said:


> I forget on what page it was but someone here ordered some mountable heat sinks that I believe can be mounted externally to the sides of the H10 chasis. They should draw some of that heat away from the bottom enough that the epoxy can handle the heat build up from under the boards.
> 
> Try typing in "Gustard H10 add on heat sinks" in the search box next to your membership name or icon !


 
 Thanks. I haven't noticed any issue with heat so far. I added the internal heatsink mod provided by Burson and to honest, the case barely even gets warm. It's nothing like my Lyr was. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 I'm looking for a solid state amplifier alongue my project ember (to compare and tests). The main prupose it to power up a HE-500.
  
 I've read that gustard H10 with stock amp are too bright, too much trebble and some sibilance ... is it right ? your opinion ?  i like a warm sound ...
  
 Moreover, gustard permit op-amp rolling  But i found the burson too expensive (and it seems there is some life-time issue ...)
  
 Is there some good/strong references to tests with ? 
 Anyone tried muses8920 in dual and somehting else in mono ?
  
 Thank you in advance !
  
 Regards,


----------



## mandrake50

I never found the H10 to be too bright, harsh nor to have any level of emphasis in the upper midrange or the treble ranges with any of the 6 or so different op amps that I tried. This includes the stock ones.
 If anything it tends towards the warmer smoother side of neutral ... to me anyway.
  
 If you go back in the thread ... maybe do a search, I believe that there are several posts discussing the Muses. It has been quite some time since I read those, but I seem to remember that people did not find them to be that good with the H10, and certainly not for the price.
  
 DO check out earlier posts, many, many combinations have been analyzed and discussed. I am using the Burson V5s in both single and dual positions. I like them overall the best out of the different combinations that I have tried. Sure, the set ends up costing almost as much as the amp, but if you intend to keep it and use it frequently, I think the cost is justified.
  
 BTW, I was one of the early adopters of the V5s. They have been in the H10 for over a year now and I have had no problems. Later versions are selected to better handle the voltage in the H10, and they have a lifetime replacement warranty.


----------



## sunneebear

I do remember coming across a few comments that the H10 did not sound very good with certain headphones.  They are great with planars and low impedance headphones, maybe its the high impedance ones like sennheisers and beyers that do not pair well with it.  I no longer own those two brands so I cannot say.


----------



## Kozic

As mandrake said the H10 is a warmer sounding amp, works great with planar headphones of all types.
 For on a budget op-amps take a look at 797bz/an for singles and the 823 or LT1364CN8 for dual.
  
 Good luck


----------



## gug42

Ok thank you guys !
  
 Anyone compare it to the Audeze Deckard ? I know not the same price range ... but in second hand can be found at a good price.


----------



## alpovs

canthearyou said:


> It does not operate as a balanced amp.


 

 I tried search and this is the best I could find. Is it confirmed that it doesn't operate as a balanced amp? It looks like it has double of everything. I was thinking maybe the grounds are just joined at the single-ended output and the amp can be modded with a balanced output.


----------



## sunneebear

alpovs said:


> I tried search and this is the best I could find. Is it confirmed that it doesn't operate as a balanced amp? It looks like it has double of everything. I was thinking maybe the grounds are just joined at the single-ended output and the amp can be modded with a balanced output.


 
 The H10 is a dual mono amplifier.  It has two mono amplifiers in chassis.  It can accept balanced line inputs but must be converted into SE, that is what the opamps in the back is for.  A full balance amplifier would have the equivalent of two stereo or four mono amplifiers in one chassis.


----------



## alpovs

sunneebear said:


> The H10 is a dual mono amplifier.  It has two mono amplifiers in chassis.  It can accept balanced line inputs but must be converted into SE, that is what the opamps in the back is for.  A full balance amplifier would have the equivalent of two stereo or four mono amplifiers in one chassis.


 

 It does have two dual OpAmps, too. Do you know why? With this logic another couple of single OpAmps should have been enough. Is it possible that the two single OpAmps you described are used only for summing the balanced input and they are not used for SE input?


----------



## sunneebear

alpovs said:


> It does have two dual OpAmps, too. Do you know why? With this logic another couple of single OpAmps should have been enough. Is it possible that the two single OpAmps you described are used only for summing the balanced input and they are not used for SE input?


 
 The two singles on the side of the amp works in the gain stage of the amplifier, it affects the sound the most.  The two dual in the back works as a balance to SE input converter module.  It takes a balanced line in signal and converts it to SE for the amplifier to use.  It has to be a dual opamp per channel because of the balanced signal (XLR).


----------



## alpovs

sunneebear said:


> The two singles on the side of the amp works in the gain stage of the amplifier, it affects the sound the most.  The two dual in the back works as a balance to SE input converter module.  It takes a balanced line in signal and converts it to SE for the amplifier to use.  It has to be a dual opamp per channel because of the balanced signal (XLR).



Hmm, I believe almost nobody feeds a balanced DAC to H10, then there is no reason to mod the two more expensive OpAmps. Right? Have you seen a schematic of this amp? I read it's nowhere to be found.


----------



## knowhatimean

If you are going to run the Amp in a low gain mode is there any reason that you'd want to upgrade the Opamps ?
  
 Am I mistaken in thinking that there was a comment about the Burson Opamps being problematic if the H10 if the Amp was going to be used in the low gain mode ?


----------



## sunneebear

alpovs said:


> Hmm, I believe almost nobody feeds a balanced DAC to H10, then there is no reason to mod the two more expensive OpAmps. Right? Have you seen a schematic of this amp? I read it's nowhere to be found.


 
  
 There are many people who have DACs with balanced line out so it would be logical to use the cleaner of the two signals.  The dual opamps do not affect the sound as much as the singles but it still does.  Most opamps are pretty cheap so why not.  You don't have to buy a Burson or other discrete opamps.  I have not seen a schematic but I have never needed to search for one.
  
  


knowhatimean said:


> If you are going to run the Amp in a low gain mode is there any reason that you'd want to upgrade the Opamps ?
> 
> Am I mistaken in thinking that there was a comment about the Burson Opamps being problematic if the H10 if the Amp was going to be used in the low gain mode ?


 
 I only know of heat and voltage issues with the Burson V5s with this amp.  Gain issues I think where with another amp.


----------



## snellemin

alpovs said:


> Hmm, I believe almost nobody feeds a balanced DAC to H10, then there is no reason to mod the two more expensive OpAmps. Right? Have you seen a schematic of this amp? I read it's nowhere to be found.


 
 I fed a balanced DAC to the H10, along with pro audio hardware and even my B&K receiver which has xlr's out.


----------



## mandrake50

sunneebear said:


> alpovs said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm, I believe almost nobody feeds a balanced DAC to H10, then there is no reason to mod the two more expensive OpAmps. Right? Have you seen a schematic of this amp? I read it's nowhere to be found.
> ...


 

 Burson did mention that some gain settings were more likely to produce problems with the V5s.   Post 4864:
  
 "_During our test we found that with +6 and +12 setting the dual opamp on the back work most stable. With all other setting seems to cause the dual V5 to overheat. We are not sure the cause since we do not know how H-10 circuit configured. "_


----------



## alpovs

snellemin said:


> I fed a balanced DAC to the H10, along with pro audio hardware and even my B&K receiver which has xlr's out.


 

 I am curious why you didn't choose a balanced amp instead of the H10.


----------



## snellemin

alpovs said:


> I am curious why you didn't choose a balanced amp instead of the H10.


 
 The H10 was used to see how it behaved with my equipment and I liked it a lot with the Burson V4's in there.  
  
 Balanced amp; what does it really mean to you?  Does it mean balanced input in the form of XLR for example or 4 conductor headphone out.  Balanced on this forum has two meanings.  I have amps that are built like the H10, which is XLR in and standard headphone out.  I also have amp that shares no common ground in the signal path, and that is has to use a 4 wire setup for headphone use.  
  
 This balance thing with headphones is just a different implementation of getting to the same result.


----------



## lucianpescaru

Anybody knows what voltage the main supply capacitors are? Is 25V enough or I have to replace with 35V as the originals are? Thanks.


----------



## alota

i read the last posts but i don´t understand one thing:
 the h10 has two dual op-amp, that convert the balanced input to single-ended input, and two single op-amp in the gain stage of the amplifier.
 the most important is the single op-amp in the signal path.
 if i use a single-ended source, it´s completely useless to change the dual op-amps. i´m right?
 thank you


----------



## alpovs

alota said:


> if i use a single-ended source, it´s completely useless to change the dual op-amps. i´m right? thank you


 
 That was my thought too but the modders cannot answer this question. Nobody has seen a schematic of this amp, yet the opinion is that the two more expensive dual OpAmps are the summers. If that is correct than obviously they are not in use in singe-ended in single-ended out type of usage of this amp, so there is no reason to mod them.


----------



## alota

alpovs said:


> That was my thought too but the modders cannot answer this question. Nobody has seen a schematic of this amp, yet the opinion is that the two more expensive dual OpAmps are the summers. If that is correct than obviously they are not in use in singe-ended in single-ended out type of usage of this amp, so there is no reason to mod them.


 
 thank you. i´m completely ignorant about schematic and electronics, but if the use is only to convert the signal...


----------



## sunneebear

I have changed the two dual opamps in my H10 and yes there is a improvement in both XLR and RCA inputs. While it is not as great as the singles used in the amplification circuit, to me the benefit is enough that I think it is a feasible investment.

I do not know how the converter works in the H10 but I had a short stint in pro audio a long time ago that I know that the gain in the balanced line is higher than the unbalance line. So if this converter works in a similar fashion as pro audio equipment then the dual opamps are used in both XLR and RCA lines to bring the voltage up or down.


----------



## alota

sunneebear said:


> I have changed the two dual opamps in my H10 and yes there is a improvement in both XLR and RCA inputs. While it is not as great as the singles used in the amplification circuit, to me the benefit is enough that I think it is a feasible investment.
> 
> I do not know how the converter works in the H10 but I had a short stint in pro audio a long time ago that I know that the gain in the balanced line is higher than the unbalance line. So if this converter works in a similar fashion as pro audio equipment then the dual opamps are used in both XLR and RCA lines to bring the voltage up or down.



Thank you. My only doubt is related using a single ended source. Two dual op-amps are a little expensive for an amplifier that costs around 350.


----------



## alpovs

alpovs said:


> That was my thought too but the modders cannot answer this question. Nobody has seen a schematic of this amp, yet the opinion is that the two more expensive dual OpAmps are the summers. If that is correct than obviously they are not in use in singe-ended in single-ended out type of usage of this amp, so there is no reason to mod them.







alota said:


> thank you. i´m completely ignorant about schematic and electronics, but if the use is only to convert the signal...



Actually I do not know that. That's what others are saying. And I don't know if they are correct - there's no schematic.


----------



## Madman242

Someone that knows Chinese could message Huang_cs on Taobao and ask him about the dual op-amps.


----------



## Ggroch

Does the H10 come with any kind of user guide?  I am boxing mine up and have no manual.  Did I lose it, or does it come documentless from the factory?
  
 If there is one, is it available to download somewhere?    It would be nice to have at least a descriptive graphic for the dip switches (not to hard to figure out, but nice to have.


----------



## Madman242

ggroch said:


> Does the H10 come with any kind of user guide?  I am boxing mine up and have no manual.  Did I lose it, or does it come documentless from the factory?
> 
> If there is one, is it available to download somewhere?    It would be nice to have at least a descriptive graphic for the dip switches (not to hard to figure out, but nice to have.


 
 I ordered mine directly from Huang_cs and it did not include any documentation.


----------



## lucianpescaru

Posting just to confirm that AD797 sounds way better than the original (OPA134 sounds 'nice' but veiled) or even OPA627 in the voltage gain stage. Details, soundstage, it's all there with my HIFIMAN HE 560... but still on the warm side.
  
 Still using LM49860s for input stage, waiting for AD823s to arrive 
  
 With the LM49860s for input it seems that is more detail but it sounds more aggressive than the original OPAs or maybe that's the source (Benchmark DAC 2).
  
 Will report back with AD823 vs LM49860 impressions.
  
 Edit
 Swapped inputs with LM6172 I had around. The aggressive (mid-highs) sound of is gone compared with LM49860 but so is the detail and prat. Gave them the night to burn-in but... back to 49860 it is, until the AD823s arrive.
  
 Edit2
 AD823s are here, swapped, initial impression is very good, LM49860 aggressive & coarse presentation is gone, everything seems smooth and detailed. Maybe just the bass 'prat' is a little bit worse but will see how it sounds after a day of two.
  
 Edit3
 Quick swap to check the bass lines and the LM49860 sounded 'bloated' in LF and without treble extension. Back to AD823s for good.
  
 Edit4
 After one day of burn-in AD823 sounds like it's supposed to with the HE560, open, detailed, bass lines complement the overall presentation and are not too proeminent. Hope it gets better with time 
 Sennheiser HD600 also sound very nice, they scale very well with the amplifier used.
 Audio-Technica ATH AD2000x and Beyerdynamic T1 1st gen sound better straight from the Benchmark amplifier, as they tend to sound too bright from the Gustard. Maybe OPA627s in voltage amplification stage would do the trick for Beyerdynamic T1 (darker presentation) but I ain't changing the AD797s for that.
 Happy camper overall.


----------



## gug42

Cool, good news. Thx for sharing


----------



## lucianpescaru

lucianpescaru said:


> Anybody knows what voltage the main supply capacitors are? Is 25V enough or I have to replace with 35V as the originals are? Thanks.


 
  
 I'll answer my own question, the main supply capacitors run at ~29Vdc so 35V 16mm diameter if one wants to replace those.
  
 I ordered some Nichicon 3300uf 35V for audio UKA1V332MHD to replace the originals... not that it sounds bad now but just because it might sound better with those. Will let you people know how things go.


----------



## sunneebear

If you've read this thread from the beginning you will find that some say this amp takes a very long time to break in. I kind of agree with that and I think most of it is due to the bank of capacitors. If so, I don't know how you can remember what the old capacitors sound like. I do hope that you do change the capacitors and get back to us.


----------



## lucianpescaru

sunneebear said:


> If you've read this thread from the beginning you will find that some say this amp takes a very long time to break in. I kind of agree with that and I think most of it is due to the bank of capacitors. If so, I don't know how you can remember what the old capacitors sound like. I do hope that you do change the capacitors and get back to us.


 
  
 Simply put I have a good sense of what sounds good (female vocals and piano, general sense of air around each instrument or cymbal).
  
 Anyway just changed for 16x Nichicon 3300uf 35V for audio UKA1V332MHD. They are taller than the originals but fit nice under the cover and also rated at 105C. After a couple of hours presentation is already better, cleaner overall. Anyway I can sleep better at night.
  
 Also installed a mains filter while at it http://uk.farnell.com/epcos/b84773a0004a000/filter-inlet-iec-4a-250v-ac-dc/dp/2317968?ost=2317968 which I think helps clean the sound. Be wary you have to file the back banel little by little, it's not a direct fit, just file carefully until you get the filter in the right position in and lined with the screw holes.
  
 Photo just before the caps arrived, cleaned the through-holes (thank god no lifting traces, used a toothpick, 100W soldering gun and a solder pump) and with the Nichicons installed.
  
 Over 50000uf of capacitance baby 
  

  

  
 Just more natural and detail galore wraps it up. Fornication in me ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 with HE560. I'll edit this post two-three days later to wrap it up.


----------



## wwmhf

Looking forward to your updates!!


----------



## wwmhf

The first picture in your post makes me to like this amp more. It will be nice toy to play with ...


----------



## sunneebear

Okay then.  $40 shipped for Nichicons or $50 shipped for Elnas.  What to do what to do?


----------



## lucianpescaru

wwmhf said:


> The first picture in your post makes me to like this amp more. It will be nice toy to play with ...


 
 You could play with it more - has 4 film decoupling capacitors under the volume shaft, 4 at the voltage gain single OPAs and 4 also near the input buffer. Leave the bigger red WIMAs in place they're lowpass filter to avoid picking nasties inside the amplifier's loop.
  
 These can be replaced with your prefered film 5mm pitch decoupling cap, mine are green Vishay 100nf polyesters. Red WIMA sounds bad in the high register (muffled), and blue EPCOS former SIEMENS too thin, as in where did my base go?
  
 The 2 white poly caps just near the radiator are part of an RC filter to reduce noise and changing them would not yield any improvement IMHO.


----------



## lucianpescaru

sunneebear said:


> Okay then.  $40 shipped for Nichicons or $50 shipped for Elnas.  What to do what to do?


 
 Elna, as far as I read the datasheet here http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/alumi/catalog/pdf/rfs_e.pdf is in much lower capacitance values as in 470uf/35V at the same size, so Nichicon it is. Maintaining a high capacitance the main supply is crucial.


----------



## sunneebear

lucianpescaru said:


> Elna, as far as I read the datasheet here http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/alumi/catalog/pdf/rfs_e.pdf is in much lower capacitance values as in 470uf/35V at the same size, so Nichicon it is. Maintaining a high capacitance the main supply is crucial.






 


Thanks.  


 


Mendelsons has some NOS Elna audio grade with the correct value but they are NOS and pre-Selmic II.  Don't want to take a chance on it.


 


I am only looking at the Elna because of this comparison. http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html


----------



## lucianpescaru

Hi all,
  
 I also changed the two electrolytic caps near the voltage amplifer OPAs with also Nichicon for audio UKA1H331MPD (330uf/50v). The orignal 100uf/40V BC Components was 8mm in diameter so I had to bend the legs a bit for a 2mm offset in the opposite side of the small decoupling poly cap.
  
 Everything sounds like it should now (airy highs, cymbals sound more like the real-life thing, creamy mids voices are very well defined and timbre is great, bass lines that do not overwhelm the rest of the presentation bu are still kicking some serious ass).
  
 Endgame on the amplifier part of this hobby for a year or two for me, just feeling a bit sorry for selling the Sennheiser HD800 now, I'd have like to give those a whirl with proper amplification.
  
 To resume, if you feel that sound is on the warm side with the HE560 change the OPAs for AD823 and AD797, and to increase general level of detail and also gain more 'hitting' bass (don't know if I can call it 'faster transients') use Nichicon for Audio, they are just great.
  
 Also tested with HD600 (scales very well) and Beyer T1 (the 'shrill' is gone and the prat is there).
  
 Have a nice weekend.


----------



## gug42

what headphone do you use for thoses testing ?


----------



## lucianpescaru

gug42 said:


> what headphone do you use for thoses testing ?


 
  
 HIFIMAN He560 and Sennheiser HD600.
  
 Edit
 Right after changing the caps the sound is somehow 'sibilant'. Give them at least 3 days with the amplifier on and the sound will get better, as in more details and no sibilance.


----------



## Feilong4

How do I turn off the amp?
  
 I've pressed it on, but cannot press it to turn it off. I'm probably not noticing something very obvious.


----------



## Ggroch

Sounds like you have a bad/sticky switch.  No trick.  Push once it goes in for on, press it again it pops out a bit for off.


----------



## Madman242

feilong4 said:


> How do I turn off the amp?
> 
> I've pressed it on, but cannot press it to turn it off. I'm probably not noticing something very obvious.


 
  
 Unplug your amp immediately to avoid a potential short circuit!!!
  
 This sounds exactly like the problem I had. Take the top off of the amp and examine the brass circuit board stand-offs. In my case, every single one of them except one had sheared off. This causes the circuit board to be out of alignment putting pressure on the switch. 
  
 If you have the same issue, you'll have to either return the amp, or fix it yourself. Either replace the stand-offs, or what I did because I didn't want to wait for new stand-offs to arrive was to carefully epoxy them back on with a good two-part epoxy.


----------



## wwmhf

madman242 said:


> Unplug your amp immediately to avoid a potential short circuit!!!
> 
> This sounds exactly like the problem I had. Take the top off of the amp and examine the brass circuit board stand-offs. In my case, every single one of them except one had sheared off. This causes the circuit board to be out of alignment putting pressure on the switch.
> 
> If you have the same issue, you'll have to either return the amp, or fix it yourself. Either replace the stand-offs, or what I did because I didn't want to wait for new stand-offs to arrive was to carefully epoxy them back on with a good two-part epoxy.


 
 This sounds very serious!


----------



## Madman242

wwmhf said:


> This sounds very serious!


 
 I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but yeah, loose pieces of metal rolling around + electricity = not good.


----------



## Feilong4

ggroch said:


> Sounds like you have a bad/sticky switch.  No trick.  Push once it goes in for on, press it again it pops out a bit for off.


 
  
  


madman242 said:


> Unplug your amp immediately to avoid a potential short circuit!!!
> 
> This sounds exactly like the problem I had. Take the top off of the amp and examine the brass circuit board stand-offs. In my case, every single one of them except one had sheared off. This causes the circuit board to be out of alignment putting pressure on the switch.
> 
> If you have the same issue, you'll have to either return the amp, or fix it yourself. Either replace the stand-offs, or what I did because I didn't want to wait for new stand-offs to arrive was to carefully epoxy them back on with a good two-part epoxy.


 
  
 Yeah, it seems like my unit just has a sticky switch. It seems to switch on and off ok now. A bit sticky, but it works.
  
 It was scary because one side started to give out out. Tested my headphones again and it's back to normal.


----------



## ThomasHK

Any measurements to be found for this amp? My Google-Fu isn't turning up anything...


----------



## fritobugger

The Gustard H10 is back on Massdrop.


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 When I put gain at +12 , yes it a little bit louder (than the default -6)  but not a lots .... I'm surprise ....
 On yours gustard, did you heard a huge difference or not  ?
  
 Moreover, I didnt see any difference between moving the first switch (balanced / unbalanced). I dont understand ?


----------



## Kozic

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> When I put gain at +12 , yes it a little bit louder (than the default -6)  but not a lots .... I'm surprise ....
> On yours gustard, did you heard a huge difference or not  ?
> ...


 
 Ok first not a big difference lots of us have +12 for planars. The Bala/Unbala is important,what ever input you are using make sure the switch is the same.
 enjoy


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 Thx for your reply.
 So I will use +12 and set unbalanced for both 
  
 Well 100hours of burn is quite longue ... only half the way done


----------



## gug42

By the way, any one tried the muses8920 ?  (I've do research in this topic and nobody talk about them ...)


----------



## manishex

I've always prefered 0 gain to all my amps. more dynamic range, less distortion, bass has much more body and vocals are SO much more intimate.
  
 With high gain I 'think' I can turn it up louder but actually I'm forcing myself to listen to it louder than I should. On the upside high gain gives me more etchy treble, bigger soundstage and tighter bass which isnt really much...
  
 Try switching back to low gain for a while - the only case I can see high gain being better is if your amp is seriously underpowering your headphones (the Abyss, he-6 & LCD-4 would ideally want more power in this case)


----------



## gug42

Ok thx for you opionion ... well I must test 
 What about he-500 at 0 gain ?
  
 By the way, 0 gain is all switches down ?


----------



## manishex

Adding gain is like adding digital zoom, where your amp's amplification power is the optical zoom.
 Yep all switches down.


----------



## gug42

Thx, i will try


----------



## Feilong4

On the topic of gain for the H10, there are options for -6 and -12 gain. These are typically used for sensitive headphones and IEMs, correct?


----------



## manishex

Yep, 0 is technically slightly superior


----------



## URNape2

So this H10 sounds like a pretty terrific bang for the buck.  Seeing as it's back on Massdrop for $300, I think I'm going to go for it.  Planning to pair it with an AKG K-702 65th anniversary.  Can anyone recommend a good DAC for this setup, or should I just wait for the X12 to show up on Massdrop again?


----------



## fritobugger

urnape2 said:


> So this H10 sounds like a pretty terrific bang for the buck.  Seeing as it's back on Massdrop for $300, I think I'm going to go for it.  Planning to pair it with an AKG K-702 65th anniversary.  Can anyone recommend a good DAC for this setup, or should I just wait for the X12 to show up on Massdrop again?




While X12 is great, it isn't necessary. The SMSL M8 or Schiit Modi Uber or Multibit would be fine.


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 About gain, with my HE-500, at same "volume/louder level", 
  - at 0, I found the sound a little "flat" without relief.
  - at +12 I find the sound more lively, more alive, more depth and meat
  
 Gustard with stock amp ops and with about 30/40h of burn.
  
 About DAC : I use a schiit multibit ... but well i don't have lots of point comparaison ...
 My advise will be, if you want the best money value, to follow the second hand market (and the trade section of this forum).
  
 Regards,


----------



## manishex

It has amazing value for money considering when you upgrade your op amps their ability skyrockets.
 I have mine for sale if anyone in London wants to come collect it with the V5i's.


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 For my part, I have buy some op amps ( AD797  AD823  OPA627 muses8920)  and I will try them.
 But I will  not go for the burson v5 : too expensive for my taste and fiability problems ....
  
 Regards,


----------



## manishex

Try the V5i, they are half the price and don't have the stability issues. I'd say they offer 90% of the full experience whereas the AD797/AD823 are 75%


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> For my part, I have buy some op amps ( AD797  AD823  OPA627 muses8920)  and I will try them.
> But I will  not go for the burson v5 : too expensive for my taste and fiability problems ....
> ...


 
 100% agree with you.
  
 Too many failures with Burson op-amps.


----------



## Feilong4

manishex said:


> Try the V5i, they are half the price and don't have the stability issues. I'd say they offer 90% of the full experience whereas the AD797/AD823 are 75%


 
  


howie13 said:


> 100% agree with you.
> 
> Too many failures with Burson op-amps.


 
  
 That's good to know as I was considering them. Very skeptical in the upgrade in performance though.  Are the AD797/AD823 the stock ones?


----------



## HOWIE13

feilong4 said:


> That's good to know as I was considering them. Very skeptical in the upgrade in performance though.  Are the AD797/AD823 the stock ones?


 
 Stock are OPA134 and NE5532.


----------



## URNape2

Well, I pulled the trigger!  Finally!  Excited to see what I've been missing out on.   Really appreciate this thread and all the information!


----------



## swannie007

I think you will be happy with this amp. Just have realistic performance expectations and you will not be disappointed.
 As you well know, it takes at least a 100 hours or so to "burn in" so don't be quick to judge. The Burson op amps are a nice upgrade and I really enjoy mine, well worth the money, in my opinion, but YMMV. I have had my amp and dac for about two and a half years now and don't see myself getting rid of them.  The build quality, components and sound are absolutely premium for the dollars paid and would be hard to beat, in my opinion. Enjoy. Cheers.


----------



## gug42

manishex said:


> Try the V5i, they are half the price and don't have the stability issues. I'd say they offer 90% of the full experience whereas the AD797/AD823 are 75%


 
  
  
 Hum ... well for the 4 v5i needed : 130$ (without shipping) ... it's quite expensive in regards of the gustard H10 price (270$ shipping included) ...
 (Ok full boat v5 : 200$ (without shipping))


----------



## HOWIE13

Has there been any comparison of sound differences between the V5i and the previous flawed Burson V5 iterations, or with the stock, or with 797/823 combo op-amps which are considerably cheaper?


----------



## Madman242

gug42 said:


> Hum ... well for the 4 v5i needed : 130$ (without shipping) ... it's quite expensive in regards of the gustard H10 price (270$ shipping included) ...
> (Ok full boat v5 : 200$ (without shipping))


 
 Some people have said that if you only upgrade the singles you'll get most of the benefit. I've also read here that upgrading the duals is only required if you are using the balanced inputs, but I'm not sure that has been confirmed.


----------



## sunneebear

madman242 said:


> Some people have said that if you only upgrade the singles you'll get most of the benefit. I've also read here that upgrading the duals is only required if you are using the balanced inputs, but I'm not sure that has been confirmed.


 
 XLR and RCA inputs both go through the dual opa's.


----------



## jazzwave

howie13 said:


> Has there been any comparison of sound differences between the V5i and the previous flawed Burson V5 iterations, or with the stock, or with 797/823 combo op-amps which are considerably cheaper?


 
  
 My HD10 currently use V5, tried stock and 797 before. I considered Burson  V5 1 step next level from 797 or stock.
 V5 has bigger soundstage, good bass , open treble but not fatigue (I'm using HD600).
 Cons: I got first batch V5 , has popping sound issue, Burson sent the replacement. Problem solved
  
 I  use V5i in my other amp, old head amp Maverick D1. I'm very happy with result, fyi I almost want to sell D1 but cancelled after opamp changed with V5i  (replaced 627)
  V5i opamp running well. 5 hours/day without heat issue 
  
 ~ron~


----------



## HOWIE13

jazzwave said:


> My HD10 currently use V5, tried stock and 797 before. I considered Burson  V5 1 step next level from 797 or stock.
> V5 has bigger soundstage, good bass , open treble but not fatigue (I'm using HD600).
> Cons: I got first batch V5 , has popping sound issue, Burson sent the replacement. Problem solved
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks ron, that's very helpful.


----------



## gug42

jazzwave said:


> My HD10 currently use V5, tried stock and 797 before. I considered Burson  V5 1 step next level from 797 or stock.
> V5 has bigger soundstage, good bass , open treble but not fatigue (I'm using HD600).
> Cons: I got first batch V5 , has popping sound issue, Burson sent the replacement. Problem solved
> 
> ...


 

 Your talking, for the gustard, about the big v5 ?  not the v5i ?
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## HOWIE13 (Apr 27, 2017)

gug42 said:


> Your talking, for the gustard, about the big v5 ?  not the v5i ?
> 
> 
> Regards,


Yes it seems that there has not yet been a decent evaluation of these V5i's compared to other op amps in H10 .
They are also rated max voltage 16V,  which could still be a problem, like with the V5.

At present I'm using 627/823 and enjoying a clear, lively, engaging and euphonic sound.


----------



## gug42

Ok thx. 
I have 627  797 and 823  so i will try all of them  (well when I will get some more time  )


----------



## HOWIE13

Good move! The 823's are the duals for the inputs and the other two the singles for the outputs, of course. .

I've also put all my opamps into their own dip-8 sockets for ease of rolling and to minimise breaking their delicate spidery legs, which I've managed to do several times in the past.


----------



## starence

I'm considering upgrading to either 627/823 or 797/823. Would it sound the same either way, or are there noticeable differences?


----------



## HOWIE13

@starence.
I personally find the 627 is livelier and more engaging than the 797, which is a bit smoother and warmer.
Both are good-depends on your preference. Mine is for the 627, using T1g2 and HD 600/650.


----------



## Greg121986 (Jun 7, 2017)

Hey guys,
I've got a new Gustard H10 from Massdrop that has been working fine. I just received a full set of Burson V5 opamps and they are not working as a complete set. I have the "S" opamp on the headphone output stage and the "D" opamp on the input stage. There is no output when I configure it this way. I put the stock opamp back into the input stage with the Burson "S" opamps in the headphone output stage and it is working. Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong?

*EDIT* I swapped opamps around and noticed there was a gold insert from the IC riser that was stuck in the old headphone stage opamp. There must have been no connection on the headphone output stage. I replaced this insert and used the Burson "S" in the headphone stage and the stock input stage IC as my first test. This worked OK. Now I have replaced the stock input stage with the Burson "D", along with the Burson "S" still in the headphone stage. Everything is working fine now. 

The connection of these opamps is very loose and feels very poor, but I guess this is necessary to be able to easily swap the opamps.


----------



## vasu (Jun 7, 2017)

Is anyone else having a lot of trouble with the reliability / longevity of their Burson op-amps in the H10? I got the full 2 x V5 single and 2 x V5 dual upgrade last year (April 2016) and they worked great for 7 months before they failed, developing a scratching sound in the audio output after a few minutes that then turned into a loud and continual popping sound. I emailed Burson about this and I got replacement op-amps which fixed the problem, but then the exact same thing happened again last month, so I only got 5 months out of the second set. At this point, I don't want to try for a third set, and keep doing this back and forth every few months. I have the metal bar they sent installed properly to help in heat dissipation, and the room the H10 is kept in is usually kept pretty cold, but I guess these op-amps are still overheating?

So.. some questions

1) Anyone else having this problem?
2) Anyone know if the smaller V5i op-amps are more reliable / less susceptible to overheating?

more importantly:

3) I seem to have misplaced (or thrown out) the stock op-amps that came with the H10. Can anyone tell me the model numbers for the op-amps used for the input, and output stages?

4) Or, are the other op-amps people are using for upgrades working reliably?


----------



## mandrake50

Just curious, how much do you use the H10. Like hours per day (average). I got the V5s (both single and dual) very soon after they were released. I have no had any problems. I did install the heat spreader and put heat sinks on the regulators. The room probably averages 74 degrees F. I might average 2 hours per day, but have run it for 150 hours straight when breaking in headphones. I do run at  12 DB gain, which I think that was what Burson said produced the least heat in the Opamps.  There are other settings NOT recommended for the gain switches.

 I have had no problems to date.

This topic has been discussed at length earlier in the thread. It seems that the V5s are running at or beyond their rated voltage in the H10. Later ones, designated for the H10 were/are selected based on testing for voltage tolerance.

Also, I don't have it  in front of me now, but the stock opamps... the specific types, is listed in many places earlier in the thread. I can't do it for you right now, but a quick search will get you that data... as well as documenting the potential causes for V5s failing.


----------



## vasu

mandrake50 said:


> Just curious, how much do you use the H10. Like hours per day (average). I got the V5s (both single and dual) very soon after they were released. I have no had any problems. I did install the heat spreader and put heat sinks on the regulators. The room probably averages 74 degrees F. I might average 2 hours per day, but have run it for 150 hours straight when breaking in headphones. I do run at  12 DB gain, which I think that was what Burson said produced the least heat in the Opamps.  There are other settings NOT recommended for the gain switches.
> 
> I have had no problems to date.
> 
> ...



Usage: 2-6hrs at night, but only on weekends. Typical would be maybe 6 hours over the weekend, maybe 12 hours at most. So about the same daily average as you, but compressed into weekend listening. I was also running at a 12gb gain, and my first set (and certainly second set) were after they started designating certain ones for the H10. 

I searched this thread about Burson issues but couldn't find anything concrete either way, or resolutions, but in such a long.. long thread, it's possible I read over an answer or something.


----------



## mandrake50

try a search for "stock opamps" for the part numbers...
Maybe I am lucky, or my H10 is special for some reason. No issues to date. I kept all of the opamps I tried, including the stock ones... but a search would be easier for you than me finding them...


----------



## Greg121986 (Jun 8, 2017)

I received my H10 just a few days ago from MassDrop. The stock opamps in the Gustard H10 are

Input Stage: TI NE5532P (96A35PM)



 

Headphone Stage: BurrBrown OPA134PA (4BW7NHB)


----------



## vasu

Greg121986 said:


> I received my H10 just a few days ago from MassDrop. The stock opamps in the Gustard H10 are
> 
> Input Stage: TI NE5532P (96A35PM)
> 
> Headphone Stage: BurrBrown OPA134PA (4BW7NHB)



Thanks Greg121986!


----------



## bouky (Jun 21, 2017)

Hi guys,

I have a H10 and I want to use it as a power amplifier.
I want use my hi fi preamplifier where all my inputs are connected.

And so I want to add an input to shunt the internal preamplifier of the Gustard. Do you know where I can solder my new input?
I don't found any diagram. If someone could help me it would be so nice!
Or if someone has the diagram of the Gustard 

Many thank's in advance,
Francky


----------



## VRacer-111

Got mine delivered in just a few hours ago and am enjoying it right out the box with my M1060's and DFR in line out mode:






Can wait to get more hours on them. Went with 2 because will be modding and want one as a standard until finished and spare afterwards (because no real warranty with these. Opened them up to verify the voltage switches were correct for input power and it was correctly set ( 110v) on both. Looking to drill some cooling holes in the case for passive cooling along with all the other fixes I read about already in this thread. Might go with active cooling (small external exhaust fan remotely attached via hose, hose connected to the amp to draw out air)... but right now just running it stock to see how it does as is. So far after about an hour use the box isn't even warm to the touch at all in a room with ceiling fan on. Passive cooling may be enough... can never be too cool though...


----------



## mandrake50

Mine really doesn't get that hot. I have the Burson device to connect the case with the heat sink for the output devices and put copper pin heat sinks on the regulators.
I measured it at around 98 F +/_ 2 degrees (depending on where I measured it. The ceiling fan dropped that 4 to 6 degrees F.  If I can keep components under 100 degrees F, I am pretty happy. Of course, lower is almost always better.. at least for amplifiers...and CPUs !
One day I want to figure out how to put the thermistor on my meter inside it.

If you drill the holes, I will be interested in seeing the temp changes that it makes. The fan idea is interesting as well. Some holes on the bottom and pulling air towards the top back would be quite interesting.


----------



## VRacer-111

I think since one will basically be a testing unit, I want to go ahead and drill holes all along both sides and top of the cover. Block off holes with aluminum tape to test out different ideas... As of right now I'm initially thinking intake on the right hand side (opamp/transistor side) more towards the center/rear area across from the rear transistor bank. Exhaust in front of the voltage transformers on left hand side, between front panel and the forward power transformer. If I could bring it to work could possibly borrow thermistor setup to check temps. Could at maybe wire it up with multiple thermistor locations in strategic areas (case top, heat sink, voltage regulators, power transformers).


----------



## gug42 (Jul 9, 2017)

Hello guys

Well sorry to ask a probably already answer question  : 
I need more bass and sub bass  :  did you thinj AOP can help me or not ? 
Ans I didn't want to go for burson v5 ( expensive and problem with thoses high voltage)  

Thx


----------



## VRacer-111 (Jul 13, 2017)

So, should the Burson V6 solve the problems the V5 had with the Gustard? Higher voltage and vented design...

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/b...e-audio-opamps-discussion-and-reviews.854912/

Still going to vent the Gustard case no matter what though!


----------



## Madman242 (Jul 13, 2017)

VRacer-111 said:


> So, should the Burson V6 solve the problems the V5 had with the Gustard? Higher voltage and vented design...



That appears to be one of their intentions with this update! I wonder, if we have a failure with the V5s, would Burson provide a warranty upgrade to V6? It would seem to be in their interest to do so.


----------



## mandrake50

VRacer-111 said:


> So, should the Burson V6 solve the problems the V5 had with the Gustard? Higher voltage and vented design...
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/b...e-audio-opamps-discussion-and-reviews.854912/
> 
> Still going to vent the Gustard case no matter what though!


I had an email conversation with Alex at Burson and asked the question. He said the higher voltage rating on the V6 would make it "perfect" for the H10.  This even though the voltage rating is only 0.5 volts higher. I did order a full boat set for my H10. While I was at it.. he talked me into trying the Conductor V2+. I look forward to doing some comparisons with the amp section versus the H10. Maybe not a fair comparison based on cost alone. We will see. BTW the V2+ uses the V5 opamp. I wonder if the are user replaceable.


----------



## VRacer-111

So went ahead and ordered some heat sinks. Going to mount Versarien LPH0001's on the 8 transistors attached to the main heat sink and mount Enzotech MOS-C10-LE's on the voltage regulators.

http://www.versarien-technologies.c...-LowProfileHeatsink-DATASHEET-MARCH2015fv.pdf

http://www.enzotechnology.com/mos_c10_le.htm

In running the Gustard open, the large heat sink/transistor banks and the 4 small transistors around each single Opamp are definite the hottest areas going on, with the voltages regulators next hottest. Will be putting .375" slots along both sides and a slot along top (probably 0.250"), and covering slots with a tight but breathable mesh.  The heat coming off the large sink should drive the passive cooling flow well. Figure 2 slots on the left (1 in the front and 1 in the rear by the dual Opamp), 2 slots on the right (1 in the middle of the 2 transistor banks/single opamps and 1 by the rear dual Opamp), and 1 long slot on the top (over bank of transistors/ main heat sink).


----------



## mandrake50

You are going to make that thing mighty cool. Nice project.
Those pin sinks are quite similar to what I used for the regulators. Mine are just uncoated soft copper, but about 25 mm high.
That copper foam looks quite interesting. Have you found a place to buy them? What size are you considering?


----------



## VRacer-111

Already purchased qty 20 of the Versarien LPH0001 (10mm x 10mm x 2mm) from Mouser...

http://www.mouser.com/new/versarien-technologies/versarien-lph-heat-sink/

2mm will allow plenty of clearance for the Opamps. Might be a little close for some cooling I'm still trying to figure out for the small transistors on the board next to the heat sink. And the more I think about it, just plan to have the 2 intake slots in the left hand side of the cover only (none on the right) to help promote flow out of the top better.


----------



## mandrake50

Ventilation is good.. convection itself does not supply enough directional flow to provide enough air movement to significantly influence heat sink performance. I think... more is better.. bottom to top.
If you go with forced air circulation, then I think directionality becomes significant.


----------



## Busterized

So I'm having trouble with my H10 and I have close to no knowledge on electronic repair so I was wondering if someone could help me out.







So I started getting popping/crackling in the left channel, followed by the sound cutting out completely. When the sound goes out the left most LED goes out on the board (green circle).
I have a soldering iron from when I repaired some headphones, but that's all I've used it for up until now. I started checking the connections on the bottom of the board and I noticed literally the moment I touch the solder for the transistor in the red circle with the soldering iron the LED and sound immediately come back.
I put it all back together but in another couple of hours it starts having the same exact problem, and if I solder the transistor again it immediately fixes it.
I don't really have anything else to test with so I was wondering if anyone with some experience might have a guess on what the issue is. I have no clue whether it's a bad soldering job, bad transistor, overheating issue, or something else entirely.
If anyone has any advice it'd be greatly appreciated. I'm considering taking it to an audio repair place but I would like to fix it myself if possible.


----------



## VRacer-111

Busterized said:


> So I'm having trouble with my H10 and I have close to no knowledge on electronic repair so I was wondering if someone could help me out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you put the top back on and run it, right? Have you tried running it with the top off to see if the same thing happens?


----------



## Busterized (Jul 14, 2017)

VRacer-111 said:


> So you put the top back on and run it, right? Have you tried running it with the top off to see if the same thing happens?



I want to say I did that at first when I first started troubleshooting but I can't remember for sure, so I'll run it tonight with the top off and report back. One reason I suspected something overheating is it never seems to give me issues from a cold start, it always needs to be running for at least 20-30 minutes before it starts acting up at the earliest. The longest stretch it's gone without issue since this started was 5 hours.

Edit: 30 minutes of running it with the top off and it started acting up


----------



## Madman242

Busterized said:


> I want to say I did that at first when I first started troubleshooting but I can't remember for sure, so I'll run it tonight with the top off and report back. One reason I suspected something overheating is it never seems to give me issues from a cold start, it always needs to be running for at least 20-30 minutes before it starts acting up at the earliest. The longest stretch it's gone without issue since this started was 5 hours.
> 
> Edit: 30 minutes of running it with the top off and it started acting up



It shouldn't be too difficult for you to replace that transistor. I'd start with that. It's cheap enough that you can just try and see if it fixes the problem.


----------



## Busterized

Madman242 said:


> It shouldn't be too difficult for you to replace that transistor. I'd start with that. It's cheap enough that you can just try and see if it fixes the problem.


I ordered a finer soldering tip and a soldering wick so I can replace it myself. I appreciate all the help but I do have one last question: Are these the equivalent transistors? 
http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?r=512-BC556BTA
http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?r=512-BC546BTA

They come up when I search for the part but there are several variations of each, I figured it would be this one because the ones on the board appear to have the angled pins and these are the only ones that also do.


----------



## VRacer-111

Got the Versarien Cu Foam heatsinks in an put them on the heatsink transistors and the voltage regulators on one of the H10s. Have a different heat sink coming in for the voltage regulators, but figured getting the Versariens on temporarily wouldn't hurt...












Will be using thermal epoxy for the final installation.


----------



## mandrake50

Did you  or do you plan to do any temperature measurements? I was thinking before and after... but you do have a second unit.
Why thermal epoxy. Is the adhesive on those foam sinks not good. Thermal epoxy can be less efficient than the factory supplied interface.
Just curious.


----------



## VRacer-111

mandrake50 said:


> Did you  or do you plan to do any temperature measurements? I was thinking before and after... but you do have a second unit.
> Why thermal epoxy. Is the adhesive on those foam sinks not good. Thermal epoxy can be less efficient than the factory supplied interface.
> Just curious.



I do plan on taking measurements, looking into getting a spot IR thermometer currently (most likely a FLIR TG56, which also has a Type K thermocouple input).

I want thermal epoxy on it due to if they ever come off they will touch the transistor leads...which would not be a good thing. I'm getting really good high quality thermal epoxy, no efficiency problem with this stuff, better than thermal tape.


----------



## mandrake50

Yes, conductive material  loose inside an electronic device is not a good thing. I have to say that using 3M thermal tape I have not yet had anything come loose. I have used for heat sinks on video cards. One time I tried to remove the memory sinks from a card to get a warranty replacement. I pulled the sinks (first one) off and the case of the IC came with it. Of course you can do better with the best grades of thermal epoxy, if it is applied correctly.

That FLIR TG256 looks like a fine device. I am tempted to pick one up myself. Beyond electronic temperature measurement, it would be good for HVAC and other things that I do. I like that 30:1 spot ratio.

Well, keep us posted. I am quite interested in your results.

BTW, not sure whether I mentioned it. I did order a full set of the Burson V6 opamps to try (along with a Conductor V2). There have been some delays on that, but hopefully I will get them next week some time.


----------



## Toyboyo

mandrake50 said:


> I had an email conversation with Alex at Burson and asked the question. He said the higher voltage rating on the V6 would make it "perfect" for the H10.  This even though the voltage rating is only 0.5 volts higher. I did order a full boat set for my H10. While I was at it.. he talked me into trying the Conductor V2+. I look forward to doing some comparisons with the amp section versus the H10. Maybe not a fair comparison based on cost alone. We will see. BTW the V2+ uses the V5 opamp. I wonder if the are user replaceable.


@mandrake50 I too have ordered the V6 opamps for my H10 but have been considering a Burson Conductor and am keen to hear how you found it in comparison to the Gustard.


----------



## wwmhf

As for the heat issue, I simply use the amp without the top cover all the time. Of course, you just have to very careful when using the amp this way.


----------



## wwmhf

As for the op amps, I like the following combinations:

V5 single + LM4562NA
627 + V4 double

I do not like 797 and 823


----------



## VRacer-111

lucianpescaru said:


> I'll answer my own question, the main supply capacitors run at ~29Vdc so 35V 16mm diameter if one wants to replace those.
> 
> I ordered some Nichicon 3300uf 35V for audio UKA1V332MHD to replace the originals... not that it sounds bad now but just because it might sound better with those. Will let you people know how things go.



Want to make sure I understand this correctly, the actual voltage the stock capacitors see is ~30V even though they are 63V rated capacitors? UVZ1J222MHD seems to be the stock capacitors on mine based on the VZM data sheet and measuring them at 18x35mm. Just wondering what reason they would put 63V capacitors in if they are only being run @ ~30v. Have my eye on the UKA1V472MHD if this is the case...


----------



## mandrake50

Quite often, in high reliability circuits, the "rule of thumb is to double the voltage rating of the cap versus what the working voltage will be.
The other thing to consider is the MAX voltage the cap can see. A unloaded supply can produce higher voltage than its working voltage during startup.. though this should not be a big issue for a well regulated supply.
I have always  made the error on the side of higher voltage when replacing caps. One would think that, if the stock caps are truly 63 volt rated parts, they did it for a reason. Of course, it may be that they had many on hand...or could get them cheaper.

Probably can get away with 35 or 36 volt caps, but without a good understanding of the circuit... who knows?


----------



## VRacer-111

The stock caps...


----------



## mandrake50

That is pretty conclusive... !!
I somehow thought that this was based on matching up dimensions from the data  sheet.
Thanks!


----------



## lucianpescaru

Here's what I pulled out of mine. Guess it's an older version. Also measured ~29V on all the caps so...


----------



## russdog

Do we know if the V6 sounds different/better than the V5's?   Or is it all just about voltage?


----------



## mandrake50 (Jul 27, 2017)

I just got mine today. About an hour ago. As I have time some time to let them run in and give a listen, I will see what I can report.

Burson says that they are different.. even have two models. I think Vivid and Classic. Even those are said to sound different from each other. I got the Vivid.


----------



## russdog

I've read most of this thread... but I forget where I left off exactly.... 

I was up to the part about how the initial V5 problem was about V5 issues with H10 voltage, and Burson said they were gonna fix that with an updated V5 that could handle it.    Did that work out in a way that makes almost everybody happy?


----------



## VRacer-111

Per Burson, the V6 Vivid is the V5 in sound, but technically better. The Classic is different sounding. I have a full set of both coming in, got email notice today that they are finally on their way.


----------



## mandrake50

russdog said:


> I've read most of this thread... but I forget where I left off exactly....
> 
> I was up to the part about how the initial V5 problem was about V5 issues with H10 voltage, and Burson said they were gonna fix that with an updated V5 that could handle it.    Did that work out in a way that makes almost everybody happy?


They did do something for H10 owners. I think the were selecting V5s that tested better for the voltage tolerance problem.
It seemed to be a hit or miss thing. I had a full set of the V5s in my H10 from one of the very early batches. I have been running them for over a year with no problems.
When I got the V6s, I pulled the 5s out and noticed one of then was pushing the case off. It was still fully functional. I heated it with a hair drier and pushed the case back to where it belongs. It now looks and works just fine. The other three were unaffected.

I guess I have been lucky, though I did do the mod that Burson provided that couples the case to the output device heat sink, and added pin heat sinks to the regulators... and ran the H10 on the +12 db gain setting as recommended.
Some people did report complete failures. I am not sure if this happened with the devices that were selected for better high voltage tolerance or not. Maybe someone that had the problem can comment.


----------



## VRacer-111

Guess what just came in: 











Figured I'd start off with the Classics. At first I was a little dissapointed in sound... then remembered about the dip switches in the back and the V5's needing +6V or +12V setting. Much better when not at the default stock setting... Torn between the two though. For +6V I love the bass, but the mids and highs are maybe just a tad bit too much forward from what I prefer. For +12V I love the balance between bass, mids, and highs...but the bass is too much and not as good quality as in +6V....

Also getting started with the top cover mods...


----------



## VRacer-111 (Jul 31, 2017)

Just finished slotting the top cover (will need some touchup later and filter screens made, but got it functional at least for now):


----------



## manishex

It doesn't seem like any of your headphones need gain. Gain is inherently worse, it's stretching the power at a lower quality and higher distortion so only useful if your headphones are being severely under powered.


----------



## mandrake50 (Jul 31, 2017)

If the gain stage is well designed  all it does is boost the input signal cleanly. If the amp has the headroom  there will be no degradation of the sound.

When you think about it, all amplifiers have gain, or they wouldn't do much. Many have a fixed level of gain, but they all by virtue of being amplifiers have gain.  All headphones need gain, or they would not produce sound at all. Whether the gain is fixed or variable, is not important. All that is important is that it is executed well.

Yes there is a potential for an additional gain stage to add distortion, but if it is done so that the amp remains within specifications it really should not be noticeable.

The gain setting subject  is related  to the H10 and Burson V5 opamps.  At one point a Burson rep posted that some gain settings produce less heat in the opamps. Those settings were +6 or +12 Db.
I do not remember any discussion from the Burson team indicating that either or both made any difference in the sound (other than level, which is a given).

Now, I was pretty surprised to read that there is any detectable difference in the sound of those two setting, other than level. I would like to think that, volume matched, they would sound identical. This should be the case if the amp is well designed.


----------



## mandrake50

VRacer-111 said:


> Guess what just came in:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have you had any time to listen and compare the Vivid and the Classic V6s? Or even the Bursons versus stock. I know you have two H10s so it should be pretty easy.
I put the V6 Vivids in mine last Friday. I have been putting some hours on them. I ran them over the weekend for around 75 hours. I have not swapped back to the V5s yet for a comparison.
I can see why some may say they are "technically" better than the V5. From memory there is a bit more air around voices and instruments.  This may be because they produce  a bit more emphasis  in the treble range Bass is really nice. I need to put a few more hours on them then swap them with the V5s to get a better idea of the real differences. Some of what I am hearing could also be due to using the DAC output from the Burson CV2 which I received at the same time as I did the full set of V6 Vivids.. This is a new variable that I need to Take into consideration before I draw any final conclusions. So far, I do like what I am hearing, both from the H10 +V6 and from the Conductor V2+.


----------



## alphanumerix1 (Aug 6, 2017)

mandrake50 said:


> Have you had any time to listen and compare the Vivid and the Classic V6s? Or even the Bursons versus stock. I know you have two H10s so it should be pretty easy.
> I put the V6 Vivids in mine last Friday. I have been putting some hours on them. I ran them over the weekend for around 75 hours. I have not swapped back to the V5s yet for a comparison.
> I can see why some may say they are "technically" better than the V5. From memory there is a bit more air around voices and instruments.  This may be because they produce  a bit more emphasis  in the treble range Bass is really nice. I need to put a few more hours on them then swap them with the V5s to get a better idea of the real differences. Some of what I am hearing could also be due to using the DAC output from the Burson CV2 which I received at the same time as I did the full set of V6 Vivids.. This is a new variable that I need to Take into consideration before I draw any final conclusions. So far, I do like what I am hearing, both from the H10 +V6 and from the Conductor V2+.



Be interested in your opinion on how you compare the v5 and v6 vivid.

Also from what i've read the v5 were quite unreliable has that been sorted now>?


----------



## mandrake50

I just need to get some time to compare. With work and summer activities, house maintenance etc. I just do not have much time for listening. The system has not been turned on for a week now.
V5s ?  I don't know. There was lots of discussion on this earlier in the thread. I think Burson had some sets for the H10 that were selected for higher voltage tolerance. I am not sure how those worked out. This thread went pretty dead for awhile. If you go back a  ways you can check it out. My set of V5s was one of the first batch shipped. I never had any problems with them working correctly. I did notice that, when I put the V6 in, one of the singles had the red case pushed up about 1/4". I just heated it with a hair dryer and pushed it back together. It did not show any of the blistering or other signs that people posted pictures of when their had completely died. I guess I may have just been lucky... but I did what Burson suggested as far as running the device that they provided to couple the output device heat sink to the case and running either +6 or +12 gain settings. I also added copper pin heat sinks to the regulators. It had several hundred hours on it with that configuration and I had no issues with the V5s functioning.


----------



## Greg121986 (Aug 10, 2017)

alphanumerix1 said:


> Also from what i've read the v5 were quite unreliable has that been sorted now>?



I would have to say no, the reliability has not been sorted with the V5 in the Gustard H10. I used my V5 for only about 6 weeks before one of them popped. I am told by Burson that the Gustard H10 operates at 16V which is the upper limit for the V5 tolerance. I had mine powered on consistently for about 3 - 5 days per week for this 6 week period. It turns out the V5 cannot handle this. Burson tells me the V6 is equipped to handle the higher voltage of the Gustard H10 and is thus a better match. They requested that I send the single V5 opamp back to them for warranty replacement but shipping alone would cost me more than $60. I can buy a full new set for $120. We are still trying to sort out the details of the situation. I'd prefer to just upgrade to the V6, but there is still a bad taste in my mouth having spent $220 for the V5 set just a few months ago. The V5 sounded glorious in the H10, but it is quite a costly upgrade for something that proves to be a gamble for reliability.


----------



## mandrake50

305 days per week ?? I know that is a typo, but what did you mean?
Anyway, I never ran mine constantly over long periods of  time. I probably never exceeded 18 hours straight. Even at that, this was pretty rare. It was  10 hours occasionally and more often under 6 to 8 hours. Perhaps this may be why I did not see the problems that others did.


----------



## Greg121986

mandrake50 said:


> 305 days per week ?? I know that is a typo, but what did you mean?
> Anyway, I never ran mine constantly over long periods of  time. I probably never exceeded 18 hours straight. Even at that, this was pretty rare. It was  10 hours occasionally and more often under 6 to 8 hours. Perhaps this may be why I did not see the problems that others did.



Fixed. It was powered on in my office for 3 - 5 days per week for about 6 weeks. This is a VERY high estimate on my part. There were many days where I knew I would not be in the office so I left the system off. But I'm certain leaving the H10 powered on with the V5 installed is what caused its failure. It seems as though the Burson V5 installation into the Gustard H10 is more of a "let's try it and hope for the best" situation. It is really too bad because I love the way it sounds. The rest of my chain is a Schiit Multibit Bifrost (now returned for the Gen 5 USB upgrade) and Focal Elear. Source material is TIDAL or Foobar PCM. This is the closest I've ever been to a system that eliminates upgradeitis!


----------



## mtoc

regarding the architecture, the signal goes in, it goes directly into the pot, unbufferly?


----------



## Dachink

Just replaced my Burson V5 duals with the V6 classics. Takes the Gustard to another level . Can't wait for the singles to arrive.


----------



## mandrake50

What level is that?
I did get a full set of the v6 Vivid units. I did some listening, but not a huge amount. I got a new Conductor V2+ at the same time.
Initial impressions led me to believe that the Vivid opened up the top end quite a bit. They make things a bit sharper and more defined. Bass is still the Gustard H10 signature. Big and deep.

I wish I had more time to listen. When I have time I use the CV2+. Anyway, though the V6s changed the sound, for the better I think, I am not sure about this "another level", but then the definition of level is important here.


----------



## wwmhf

VRacer-111 said:


> Just finished slotting the top cover (will need some touchup later and filter screens made, but got it functional at least for now):



I really like that HANDLE!


----------



## mandrake50

@VRacer-111 .
I am curious to hear how all of the mods are working out for thermal control.
I too think the handle a neat innovation. Taking the top off of the H10 can be a bit of a pain.
I couldn't use it for my setup because I stack, but I sure like the idea. Especially if one has to split the case frequently.


----------



## wwmhf

I have been using Burson's dual V4s in two my H10 amps and I like them better than all other regular dual op amps.


----------



## VRacer-111

wwmhf said:


> I really like that HANDLE!



It's a 4" wire formed handle from Home Depot...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Amerock-...Brushed-Chrome-Wire-Pull-BP7631226D/100631507


----------



## wwmhf

VRacer-111 said:


> It's a 4" wire formed handle from Home Depot...
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Amerock-...Brushed-Chrome-Wire-Pull-BP7631226D/100631507



Thanks a lot for the source.


----------



## VRacer-111

mandrake50 said:


> @VRacer-111 .
> I am curious to hear how all of the mods are working out for thermal control.
> I too think the handle a neat innovation. Taking the top off of the H10 can be a bit of a pain.
> I couldn't use it for my setup because I stack, but I sure like the idea. Especially if one has to split the case frequently.



Haven't had much time since the hurricane... will be at least a month until can get some time.


----------



## mandrake50

Sorry... I guess that I missed your exposure to effects of a hurricane. I can empathize.
I went through a few in N.O, and the gulf coast.  Probably nothing like you. It gives me the flavor though.
Sorry to bug you! Necessities first, of course.


----------



## diivve

Can someone suggests me some budget opamp ? I want to try rolling them but didnt know what to buy . More detail in treble and neutral is what i like, my headphone is HD650

Cheers


----------



## mandrake50 (Oct 28, 2017)

I know you want a definitive answer, but I can't give it to you. I haven't tried much of what has been discussed in this thread and others on headfi.If you go back in this thread there was a bunch of people that reviewed quite a number of different options.
You can also check *this thread*. 380 pages of just opamp discussions.
Lots of information out there. But it will give you only a starting point. In the end you will need to listen. That is how I went from zero to around 22 different opamps in my parts box. Unfortunately, not having notes, I would have to re-listen to them and research current costs to give you any kind of reasonable response to your question. Maybe someone with a better memory can recommend something, but still I encourage you to do some reading.


----------



## lucianpescaru

diivve said:


> Can someone suggests me some budget opamp ? I want to try rolling them but didnt know what to buy . More detail in treble and neutral is what i like, my headphone is HD650
> 
> Cheers



AD797 for the single opamp, OPA627 sounds darker and also sometimes the amp does not start (output relay does not click). AD826 or AD823 for the dual frontend. AD 826 sounds brighter to me but may oscillate. LM6172 for frontend sounds very dark, LM49860, LM4562, LM49720 all sound 'accurate' but not brighter and they might be too much in the mids for HD650.


----------



## mandrake50

diivve said:


> Can someone suggests me some budget opamp ? I want to try rolling them but didnt know what to buy . More detail in treble and neutral is what i like, my headphone is HD650
> 
> Cheers


One other thing that I would suggest, try some different headphones. Tuning from the amp side, especially with opamps usually makes very subtle differences. Headphones make much larger differences.


----------



## Toyboyo

diivve said:


> Can someone suggests me some budget opamp ? I want to try rolling them but didnt know what to buy . More detail in treble and neutral is what i like, my headphone is HD650
> 
> Cheers


I have the h10 and sennheiser hd800s and I have just put in the Burson v6 vivid version
I really like it and it is now more detailed in mids and highs but then again I like that sound having also a Stax setup and I listening to a variety of music from Baroque to Opera to Rock and jazz blues
I must say that I agree that headphone changeover makes more difference egipcio I prefería Mustang Crosszone headphone for Rock on whichever amp I use


----------



## mandrake50 (Oct 28, 2017)

I too like the Burson V6 Vivid with my H10. (listening with the HEK V1 with V2 pads or the Aeon Flow closed mostly lately)  As mentioned I have tried a bunch of Opamps with the H10. It was my first venture in opamp rolling. I tried the Burson V4,and V5 as well. I also have liked them... with the full set of four, in all three cases, better than any of the other combinations. I suspect the V6 Vivid might give the OP what he is asking for, but they  are far from being what I would call budget. The full set is close to what I paid for my H10. All of the Burson opamps in my collection cost way more than the H10. We do some crazy things in the pursuit of the "next best thing".


----------



## diivve

Really thanks for all the help! Im using the H10 with HD650 ,the treble to me sound really sleepy (cant think of other word lol) .
Im planning to buy a pair of AD797 for the back and a pair of MUSES02 for the front , is this right for this amp? im not really familiiar with this stuff . cheers


----------



## mandrake50

You need a pair of single opamps for the ones by the output device heat sink This would be the AD797.
A pair of duals for the rear. I don't know about the Muses... single or dual, but I do know that authentic ones are not what I would call budget.


----------



## diivve

Just opened up this amp but im little bit confused , two opamp in the back (5532) are single opamp or dual opamp?


----------



## wwmhf

diivve said:


> Just opened up this amp but im little bit confused , two opamp in the back (5532) are single opamp or dual opamp?



Those in the back are dual opamps, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Toyboyo

Burson websites  has good pics of which is which ....from memory rears sre dual


----------



## mandrake50

There are also a few good write ups in this thread with pictures that document which opamps go where.
The rear one are duals, as they have a part in the balanced to unbalanced conversion for the rear XLR connectors.


----------



## diivve

I just put in two LME49990HA single opamp and i can hear more details , wider soundstage but the warm of 5532 still exist .Will try to order a pair of dual opamp for replacement and give my feedback


----------



## jaywillin

i'm back in the club, just bought another h10


----------



## wwmhf

Welcome back. I am still hold the two H10s waiting to try out a pair of planar phones.


----------



## jaywillin

i picked this one up for my new aeon flow


----------



## panos444

Did you find anywhere sale for this amp? I would be interested.


----------



## wwmhf

shenzhenaudio.com sells it, and Massdrop does it once in while too.


----------



## panos444

Thanks for your reply, i am from Europe and i will come to US for Christmas. So i would like to buy it at this time. 
At US it would be cheaper, but from shenzhenaudio.com i will have import taxes. Massdrop have this inactive drop.


----------



## bunkbail

I have been trying to buy this amp for 2 months now, but to no avail. 2 times I ordered it, it was refunded due to various aggravating reasons (sent to wrong address, lost tracking numbers etc). I suspect that it's just the sellers didn't want to admit that they listed an out of stock item on sale. I ordered it first time on Taobao, then AliExpress. It was listed as out of stock in Shenzen Audio too. I inquired a few sellers on Ebay regarding it's availability, got no response at all. Is this product discontinued?


----------



## wadi

bunkbail said:


> I have been trying to buy this amp for 2 months now, but to no avail. 2 times I ordered it, it was refunded due to various aggravating reasons (sent to wrong address, lost tracking numbers etc). I suspect that it's just the sellers didn't want to admit that they listed an out of stock item on sale. I ordered it first time on Taobao, then AliExpress. It was listed as out of stock in Shenzen Audio too. I inquired a few sellers on Ebay regarding it's availability, got no response at all. Is this product discontinued?



I never had a good experience with Shenzen Audio. You will get a buch of apologies due to lost/wrong/damaged items.


----------



## Toyboyo

I purchased mine form Forexmen on ebay in June  - they had excellent comms answering my qq - if it is not available they should answer you
https://www.ebay.com/usr/forexmen?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754


----------



## panos444

No, neither this seller has listed the amp.


----------



## sebna

Did anybody had a chance to compare new V6 opamps vs Sparkos Labs SS3602? 

Also did anybody hear H20 by any chances?


----------



## sebna

Also would anybody be able to let me know how much from its relaxed from H10 deviate if at all when Burson's V5 or V6 are installed in it? Does those opamps change the nature of the sound of H10 or is it just making it more focused with bigger sound stage while retaining warmth and relaxed style?


----------



## VRacer-111

Have the Burson V6's and two H10s, one H10 with full compliment of the V6 Classics and the other with full compliment of the V6 Vivids. From my experience using laptop USB -> Gustard X20U DAC -> Gustard H10s, if you want enhanced bass with lovely bodied/organic mids and better clarity and dynamics throughout compared to stock, the Classics are the ones. The Vivids seem very slightly clearer and really focus on detail and speed of the mids and highs, with less of a bass emphasis - most excellent for vocals or complex music passages. Both are noticeable improvement over the stock opamps (once they really come around after a few hundred hours), would not want to go back to stock. Make sure the back pre-gain dip switches are set to +6 or +12 with the V6s.

I don't think the Sparkos Labs SS3602 are recommended for use in the Gustard H10...current/voltage incompatibility that will eventually ruin them.  That was brought out by Sparkos Labs earlier in this thread somewhere. The singles are fine to use from what I remember.


----------



## wwmhf

I really appreciate VRacer-111's post above because the system configuration in that post is very similar to mine except for the opamps. I using V5-singles and V4-duals in my H10.


----------



## sebna (Dec 8, 2017)

VRacer-111 said:


> Have the Burson V6's and two H10s, one H10 with full compliment of the V6 Classics and the other with full compliment of the V6 Vivids. From my experience using laptop USB -> Gustard X20U DAC -> Gustard H10s, if you want enhanced bass with lovely bodied/organic mids and better clarity and dynamics throughout compared to stock, the Classics are the ones. The Vivids seem very slightly clearer and really focus on detail and speed of the mids and highs, with less of a bass emphasis - most excellent for vocals or complex music passages. Both are noticeable improvement over the stock opamps (once they really come around after a few hundred hours), would not want to go back to stock. Make sure the back pre-gain dip switches are set to +6 or +12 with the V6s.
> 
> I don't think the Sparkos Labs SS3602 are recommended for use in the Gustard H10...current/voltage incompatibility that will eventually ruin them.  That was brought out by Sparkos Labs earlier in this thread somewhere. The singles are fine to use from what I remember.



Hi VRacer,

Many thanks for this invaluable comparison. Would you say that any of the two are brighter then the other, would any of them have harsh top end, and also how much brighter they are in compare to stock ones if at all? I read somewhere that Classic ones have bright top end but there was no comparison to Vivids as person who was testing them had only Classics at hand.

As to the Sparko's, it is opposite. The duals are fine and single are incompatible but not due to voltage but due to design choices. Voltage of them is perfect for H10.


----------



## VRacer-111

Thanks for the clarification on the Sparkos, for some reason I thought it was the duals with the issue.

I can listen this weekend and give better impressions of the differences between the two V6s (since I will be finally venting the top cover of the second H10 - marked up the handle holes and vent hole grid patterns last night and will be setting and drilling the holes tonight). I normally listen to the H10 with the V6 classics. Compared to stock I would really need to check them out again, but from what I remember they really aren't brighter, just more detailed and clear. Will try this weekend to do stock vs V6 comparison as well, guess will use V6 Vivids in one and stocks in the other to start out.


----------



## mandrake50

Hey @VRacer-111.
I am curious to know whether you got to do any of the thermal comparisons between the stock and modded H10s. I think a hurricane interrupted that project.
I wonder because I am trying to decide if the effort buys me enough to do the cutting and drilling and additional heat sinking that is required.


----------



## sebna (Dec 8, 2017)

VRacer-111 said:


> Thanks for the clarification on the Sparkos, for some reason I thought it was the duals with the issue.
> 
> I can listen this weekend and give better impressions of the differences between the two V6s (since I will be finally venting the top cover of the second H10 - marked up the handle holes and vent hole grid patterns last night and will be setting and drilling the holes tonight). I normally listen to the H10 with the V6 classics. Compared to stock I would really need to check them out again, but from what I remember they really aren't brighter, just more detailed and clear. Will try this weekend to do stock vs V6 comparison as well, guess will use V6 Vivids in one and stocks in the other to start out.



If you could do that, that would be amazing and much appreciated!

EDIT: It seems that what I wrote previously about Burson V5 and V6 voltages is incorrect and they are both in spec! So I will edit it out from original message not to confuse people.


----------



## VRacer-111

mandrake50 said:


> Hey @VRacer-111.
> I am curious to know whether you got to do any of the thermal comparisons between the stock and modded H10s. I think a hurricane interrupted that project.
> I wonder because I am trying to decide if the effort buys me enough to do the cutting and drilling and additional heat sinking that is required.



I have not done any thermal testing yet. Decided to just go ahead and add the heatsinks a little while back and now vent the case in a sensible manner for passive cooling on the second unit for piece of mind - enclosed stock configuration just doesn't feel right to me at all. The X20U DAC, which runs much cooler, is vented by Gustard, why not the H10 amps? Would still eventually like to do measurement to get some data points. Right now am concentrating my effort on developing M1060 mods.


----------



## wwmhf

VRacer-111 said:


> Right now am concentrating my effort on developing M1060 mods.



Even though this forum is for H10, but I am also interested in your M1060 Mods. Please keep us posted especially if you move the discussion to a pertinent forum.


----------



## Madman242

Maybe it's just me, but I don't get all the fuss over temperatures. My H10 (which has been on all day today) has Sparko duals and Burson V5 singles, running at 0bB gain, and the top is barely even warm. The only thermal mod I've added is the heatsink Burson provides for free with the op amps. Is this really such an issue?


----------



## VRacer-111 (Dec 8, 2017)

Madman242 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I don't get all the fuss over temperatures. My H10 (which has been on all day today) has Sparko duals and Burson V5 singles, running at 0bB gain, and the top is barely even warm. The only thermal mod I've added is the heatsink Burson provides for free with the op amps. Is this really such an issue?



Not so much for case temperature, but for component temperatures....ever put your finger on the voltage regulators in an H10 to see how hot they get? They get HOT, burn your finger hot, as near do the Burson opamps and the 4 transistors on the board around the single opamps. A warm case is a good thing as it's taking heat out of the enclosed system...but an open box with lower air temp is better still for the components, as is heat sinks on the component to get the heat removed from them more efficiently.  The cooler you can keep your components, the less thermal stress you will put them through and the more chance you give the unit to live longer. Been an uncomfortable amount of Burson V5 opamp modded H10 failures reported in this thread. I'd like to get as long a life out of it as possible, not a few years worth.

You really should be running at +6 or +12 gain with the Burson V5s, per their recommendation on what setting is best for them in the H10...


----------



## sebna

Madman242 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I don't get all the fuss over temperatures. My H10 (which has been on all day today) has Sparko duals and Burson V5 singles, running at 0bB gain, and the top is barely even warm. The only thermal mod I've added is the heatsink Burson provides for free with the op amps. Is this really such an issue?



Have you compared Sparko's duals to Burson Duals by any chances? 

Thanks


----------



## wwmhf

H10's box was flawed and the heat inside can really destroy those Burson V5s. Hope Burson's V6s are better. But for now, I am using my H10 without the top cover all the time.


----------



## VRacer-111

Just modded the cover for my second H10 (the one with Burson V6 Vivids):

















Still need to smooth the hole edges on the outside then use a sharpie to black out the aluminum showing in the holes.


----------



## wwmhf

Good job! Again, I really like that handle idea. It is quite difficult to take the upper cover off the H10.


----------



## wwmhf

If you have a Gustard X20 or any DAC with a balanced output xlr output, then try to use the xlr input on H10, and you may like it.


----------



## sebna (Dec 9, 2017)

Beautiful Jobie there on the cover VRacer.

A quick question V6 Classic or V6 Vivid ? Which should I go for? This open question to all who want to answer . Which have you chosen?


----------



## bunkbail

Am I one of the cool guys now?


----------



## VRacer-111 (Dec 12, 2017)

sebna said:


> Beautiful Jobie there on the cover VRacer.
> 
> A quick question V6 Classic or V6 Vivid ? Which should I go for? This open question to all who want to answer . Which have you chosen?



After listening to mainly the V6 Vivid over the weekend (been a while since listened to the Vivids) and some time with the V6 Classic I would say it depends on what you are looking for. If you really value bass impact and just overall low end presence the Classics are the ones. If you can live with a little less bass and put more value in extra detail and a more balanced to slightly mid/high focused sound, the Vivids are the ones. Classics are a little more laid back, and the Vivids more upfront. Really need to mix and match the Vivids and Classics to see what Single Vivid/ dual Classic and single Classic / dual Vivid sounds like.


----------



## sebna (Dec 12, 2017)

VRacer-111 said:


> After listening to mainly the V6 Vivid over the weekend (been a while since listened to the Vivids) and some time with the V6 Classic I would say it depends on what you are looking for. If you really value bass impact and just overall low end presence the Classics are the ones. If you can live with a little less bass and put more value in extra detail and a more balanced to slightly mid/high focused sound, the Vivids are the ones. Classics are a little more laid back, and the Vivids more upfront. Really need to mix and match the Vivids and Classics to see what Single Vivid/ dual Classic and single Classic / dual Vivid sounds like.



Many thanks again for that comparison. I have already pulled the trigger on a set of Vivids. I have a feeling they might be a better choice for my needs but only time will tell. I am not a fan of too much of bass so probably emphasising it would not work for me.


----------



## sebna

bunkbail said:


> Am I one of the cool guys now?



Am I right those are classics?


----------



## VRacer-111 (Dec 12, 2017)

bunkbail said:


> Am I one of the cool guys now?


With V6s Classics in a Gustard H10 and an M1060... yes

Are you going to put heat sinks on the voltage regulators?

Also, looking to get a USB to Digital Coax converter and thinking of the EITR... what are your thoughts and impressions of it with your gear? Can PM me if you wish.


----------



## Madman242

sebna said:


> Have you compared Sparko's duals to Burson Duals by any chances?



I haven't, sorry. I only have the single pair of each. I remember reading a comparison somewhere of all the different opamps available and the Sparkos sounded like the ones for me. If their singles would work in the H10 I would have chosen them over the Bursons. The combination sounds good to my ears!


----------



## bunkbail

sebna said:


> Am I right those are classics?


Yup


VRacer-111 said:


> Are you going to put heat sinks on the voltage regulators?


I don't think so, no. I'm using this amp for 2 days straight now with the Bursons, the top barely gets warm. I haven't tried to touch the Bursons or other components directly though. Are the temps a known issue?


VRacer-111 said:


> Also, looking to get a USB to Digital Coax converter and thinking of the EITR... what are your thoughts and impressions of it with your gear? Can PM me if you wish.


H10 + V6 purchase is one of my best audio purchase ever, and the Eitr is one of them too. I have lack of (audio) vocabulary so I can't do much impressions, but the impact Eitr gives into the chain is MASSIVE. It literally rendered my iPurifier2 useless. iPurifier2 supposedly cleans up the USB signal from a source, but the improvement is so subtle I don't think the price can be justified. OTOH the Eitr really makes my gears sing. Vocals and instruments never sounded so real, the background is blacker and everything sounds so clean now. 

H10 also makes the same positive impact to the chain too. The soundstage is wider, the layering and separation is much superior than the amp section on the R2R-11 and Mojo, and everything sounds more engaging and laid-back. Absolutely my cup of tea!


----------



## sebna

Guys how long have you waited for your delivery of Burson Opamps from HK to EU? 

Mine have shipped on 13-12-2017 and still no sign of them.

Thanks


----------



## Madman242

sebna said:


> Guys how long have you waited for your delivery of Burson Opamps from HK to EU?
> 
> Mine have shipped on 13-12-2017 and still no sign of them.
> 
> Thanks



If I recall, they took a few weeks to get to me in Canada. I wouldn't be sweating too much yet.


----------



## sebna

Madman242 said:


> If I recall, they took a few weeks to get to me in Canada. I wouldn't be sweating too much yet.



Thanks for letting me know about your experience . Much appreciated. 

I am still waiting for the delivery of the DAC but would like to have the Bursons before the DAC which is looking less and less likely with every day passing.


----------



## Madman242

Does anyone know what the status of this amp is? Has it been discontinued? Looking at huang_cs' Taobao page, there are almost no products left for sale.


----------



## bunkbail

Madman242 said:


> Does anyone know what the status of this amp is? Has it been discontinued? Looking at huang_cs' Taobao page, there are almost no products left for sale.


It has always been the case since last October. I've had a hard time looking for these for more than 2 months on Ebay, AliExpress and Taobao, until I saw one at a local store as demo set. Luckily it was in pristine condition and I bought it in a heart beat.


----------



## sebna

Madman242 said:


> Does anyone know what the status of this amp is? Has it been discontinued? Looking at huang_cs' Taobao page, there are almost no products left for sale.



It has been discontinued. It is official.


----------



## mandrake50

sebna said:


> It has been discontinued. It is official.



I would not be at all surprised at that. But where is the info that makes it "official" ?

I use mine frequently. A better than decent... quite nice amp actually, and it was pretty cheap too.
Back when one could be purchased...


----------



## JoePR31

mandrake50 said:


> I would not be at all surprised at that. But where is the info that makes it "official" ?
> 
> I use mine frequently. A better than decent... quite nice amp actually, and it was pretty cheap too.
> Back when one could be purchased...



Would you mind sharing your impressions of the H10 vs the Burson Conductor V2?


----------



## mandrake50

Hard to say at this point. I bet I don't have 50 hours of listening on either one in the last 6 months. I just put the Burson V6 vivid opamps into the H10 about the time I got the Burson V2. 
Probably fewer hours on it with that confgiuration. My schedule just has not left much time for headphone listening lately. It is something I want to do one day. I had the units stacked so I could use the line outs from the V2 to drive the H10. It will be pretty easy to do an informal volume matched comparison ...when I get time again.


----------



## JoePR31

mandrake50 said:


> Hard to say at this point. I bet I don't have 50 hours of listening on either one in the last 6 months. I just put the Burson V6 vivid opamps into the H10 about the time I got the Burson V2.
> Probably fewer hours on it with that confgiuration. My schedule just has not left much time for headphone listening lately. It is something I want to do one day. I had the units stacked so I could use the line outs from the V2 to drive the H10. It will be pretty easy to do an informal volume matched comparison ...when I get time again.



Ok..thank you.


----------



## VRacer-111

Finally just installed the custom heatsinks I made for the 4 transistors around each Single opamp on one of my H10s:


----------



## BombayTheIndian

VRacer-111 said:


> After listening to mainly the V6 Vivid over the weekend (been a while since listened to the Vivids) and some time with the V6 Classic I would say it depends on what you are looking for. If you really value bass impact and just overall low end presence the Classics are the ones. If you can live with a little less bass and put more value in extra detail and a more balanced to slightly mid/high focused sound, the Vivids are the ones. Classics are a little more laid back, and the Vivids more upfront. Really need to mix and match the Vivids and Classics to see what Single Vivid/ dual Classic and single Classic / dual Vivid sounds like.



Your notes on both of the V6 op-amps have been very helpful as I try to figure out which way to go with my Gustard H10. I'm trying to figure out which of these would be better suited to v-shaped headphones where the bass is already enhanced and the treble approaching harsh at louder volumes: do you think one or the other (classic or vivid) is more suited? It would seem the classic would push the bass out too far, and the vivid would push the treble out to the shrill & fatiguing side. I'm trying to decide which one will provide clear/clean details that's relaxing enough to not cause any listening fatigue. Any advice on this would be appreciated, thanks!


----------



## VRacer-111 (Feb 17, 2018)

BombayTheIndian said:


> Your notes on both of the V6 op-amps have been very helpful as I try to figure out which way to go with my Gustard H10. I'm trying to figure out which of these would be better suited to v-shaped headphones where the bass is already enhanced and the treble approaching harsh at louder volumes: do you think one or the other (classic or vivid) is more suited? It would seem the classic would push the bass out too far, and the vivid would push the treble out to the shrill & fatiguing side. I'm trying to decide which one will provide clear/clean details that's relaxing enough to not cause any listening fatigue. Any advice on this would be appreciated, thanks!



I've been trying V6 Vivid Singles and V6 Classic duals for a while now (as you can see in the last picture of my previous post) and it's a nice combo for my modded TH-X00PH's (a VERY V shaped phone). Bass is less than the full classic, treble is smoother and a pulled back just a little, and detail is still nice - closer to the full Vivid setup than the full Classic setup. V6 Vivid singles and V6 Classic duals would be my recommendation.


----------



## BombayTheIndian

VRacer-111 said:


> I've been trying V6 Vivid Singles and V6 Classic duals for a while now (as you can see in the last picture of my previous post) and it's a nice combo for my modded TH-X00PH's (a VERY V shaped phone). Bass is less than the full classic, treble is smoother and a pulled back just a little, and detail is still nice - closer to the full Vivid setup than the full Classic setup. V6 Vivid singles and V6 Classic duals would be my recommendation.



Nice, I have a pair of TH-X00EB that I'm pairing with it, so this sounds right up my alley! Thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## Tach

Over the weekend I started getting a loud pop in the left channel when wearing my headphones and it seems I've narrowed it down to my H10. With it connected to nothing and just the headphones plugged in the left channel makes a buzzing/hissing sound while the right is completely quiet. I'm in the UK and got the amp off ebay which was possibly shipped from China at the time. It's a few years old, around 2015 or so and I'm wondering would there be any quick fix to the problem? I've never had the unit opened or changed op amps etc...


----------



## Vanusk

Tach said:


> Over the weekend I started getting a loud pop in the left channel when wearing my headphones and it seems I've narrowed it down to my H10. With it connected to nothing and just the headphones plugged in the left channel makes a buzzing/hissing sound while the right is completely quiet. I'm in the UK and got the amp off ebay which was possibly shipped from China at the time. It's a few years old, around 2015 or so and I'm wondering would there be any quick fix to the problem? I've never had the unit opened or changed op amps etc...



I and another fellow had the same problem (his was ride side iirc) it came down to a transistor wearing out. Luckily it only costs a few dollars shipped.  Try opening up the H10 and checking if the LEDs are lighting up.  Usually when one side pops the LED goes out, that's the side you'll have to replace.

Example (Taken from Busterized's post)
http://i.imgur.com/fo9wbWY.jpg

red circle would be the transistor you replace


----------



## Ad-Astra

anyone selling one? unlucky when I have the money the discountinued


----------



## sebna

Guys do you think THX AAA might be a competition to H10 in SQ department?

I have H10 with V6 Vivids and I pair it with Denons D7200. The combo lacks detail and there is no sound stage what so ever. It is like left and right channel in your ears and then some in the head playing. Minute sound stage. So I am looking for some other amp to compare if it is D7200 or H10 or maybe combination that causes that problem.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Mar 7, 2018)

sebna said:


> Guys do you think THX AAA might be a competition to H10 in SQ department?
> 
> I have H10 with V6 Vivids and I pair it with Denons D7200. The combo lacks detail and there is no sound stage what so ever. It is like left and right channel in your ears and then some in the head playing. Minute sound stage. So I am looking for some other amp to compare if it is D7200 or H10 or maybe combination that causes that problem.



Lacks Detail? The V6 Vivid full set is the most detailed Burson opamp layout you can get, and noticeably more detailed than with the stock opamps. How many hours runtime do the V6 Vivid opamps have on them? If the Denon 7200 is anything like a Fostex TH-X00 then they will have a narrow soundstage, not familiar with the D7200 though. Nothing wrong with a narrow soundstage if it has exceptional imaging, which the TH-X00PH does on an H10.


----------



## sebna (Mar 8, 2018)

150h of hard burn-in with burn in track.

Yes the combo lacks plenty of micro detail. Massive amounts of ambient and reverb information is lost. It is like the setup dose not resolve first few decibels of info on tracks.

I compare to my speaker system so maybe my expectations are too high?

There is no sound stage. If there is no sound stage we cannot even speak about positioning / imaging as how do you want to image when there is no soundstage in the first place?

It is all left / right and in your head (it seems those are the only three available slots for the sounds to appear).

Cheers


----------



## wwmhf

VRacer-111 said:


> Finally just installed the custom heatsinks I made for the 4 transistors around each Single opamp on one of my H10s:



Wonderful work for those heat sink on those transistors! However, however, please let us know why those transistors needs heat sink.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Mar 10, 2018)

wwmhf said:


> Wonderful work for those heat sink on those transistors! However, however, please let us know why those transistors needs heat sink.



Those transistors get HOT... one of the hottest components in the H10 and seem to be failure prone because of it, attested to by posts like these:



Vanusk said:


> I and another fellow had the same problem (his was ride side iirc) it came down to a transistor wearing out. Luckily it only costs a few dollars shipped.  Try opening up the H10 and checking if the LEDs are lighting up.  Usually when one side pops the LED goes out, that's the side you'll have to replace.
> 
> Example (Taken from Busterized's post)
> http://i.imgur.com/fo9wbWY.jpg
> ...



Anything reasonable to help reduce thermal load on components to give them a longer life I'll do.


----------



## Vanusk

Do the V6 work best at any specific gain setting?  According to Burson the +6 or +12 was recommended for the V5


----------



## Tach (Apr 2, 2018)

Vanusk said:


> I and another fellow had the same problem (his was ride side iirc) it came down to a transistor wearing out. Luckily it only costs a few dollars shipped.  Try opening up the H10 and checking if the LEDs are lighting up.  Usually when one side pops the LED goes out, that's the side you'll have to replace.
> 
> Example (Taken from Busterized's post)
> http://i.imgur.com/fo9wbWY.jpg
> ...



Thanks for getting back to me, hadn't used it for a bit due to the problem and thought I'd try again this evening. Opened it up and it seems all the LEDs are lit (4 of them) and it seems to happen more after it has been on a bit and warmed up. I'll leave the lid of in case it's a ventilation problem. The manufacturer had also sent me an email with a picture of it open and asked me to see if I could remove 4 particular pieces. (They look like small chips with 8 legs each) but it was all a bit vague. They didn't say what to do when they were removed, whether they wanted me to clean them or purchase new ones or whatever. I'd hate to stop using it if it was a simple fix.

Edit: Just looked again at your picture and one of the pieces I'm referring to that I was asked to remove  happens to be between the two coloured circles at there's a red piece above and below it with I think it's U1J63 written on them.

Edit 2: Ok, so I figured out the things I'm refering to are opamps. Anyway, searched the thread and seen some folks had popping after installing the Burson opamps and someone solved their problem by swapping round the single ones. Have tried that and it's been a couple of hours pop free, fingers crossed it's a sign of things to come and problem solved.

Edit 3: Still happening


----------



## UNOE

How does the amp compare to Jot?


----------



## Vanusk

Tach said:


> Thanks for getting back to me, hadn't used it for a bit due to the problem and thought I'd try again this evening. Opened it up and it seems all the LEDs are lit (4 of them) and it seems to happen more after it has been on a bit and warmed up. I'll leave the lid of in case it's a ventilation problem. The manufacturer had also sent me an email with a picture of it open and asked me to see if I could remove 4 particular pieces. (They look like small chips with 8 legs each) but it was all a bit vague. They didn't say what to do when they were removed, whether they wanted me to clean them or purchase new ones or whatever. I'd hate to stop using it if it was a simple fix.
> 
> Edit: Just looked again at your picture and one of the pieces I'm referring to that I was asked to remove  happens to be between the two coloured circles at there's a red piece above and below it with I think it's U1J63 written on them.
> 
> ...



When my amp popped, one of the LED lights would immediately go out, then eventually come back on.  Keep an eye on them.  The amp runs really hot and doesn't have ventilation so component life can be an issue.  The Burson V5 had an issue where they weren't rated for the voltage the H10 was dishing out, so they'd overheat and eventually fry.


----------



## dfarina (May 17, 2018)

I picked up a used H10 recently and ordered the full set of v6 Burson op amps(classic duals,vivid singles).Just got the op amps installed and have been running them for an hour with the cover off.Measuring the temperature of the op amps with a temp gun they all are between 50-55 degrees celsius.Overall the amp isn't throwing off much heat.At this stage would it be ok to put the cover on?I did drill out the top of the cover for insurance,before the op amp upgrade it ran very cool,plan on letting it run for 4 days straight for the burn in period.


----------



## Vanusk

That is some nice drilling.  Yeah should be fine.  I've had 2 resistors fail so I've had to replace them (they're dirt cheap just annoying to solder since it's not pretty) the 2nd one failed with the case partially on to let some heat out.  A drilled cover would have been better.


----------



## dfarina

I did end up putting the cover back on,after 8 hours it’s barely warm to the touch,so I think I’m good to go.


----------



## wwmhf

dfarina said:


> I picked up a used H10 recently and ordered the full set of v6 Burson op amps(classic duals,vivid singles).Just got the op amps installed and have been running them for an hour with the cover off.Measuring the temperature of the op amps with a temp gun they all are between 50-55 degrees celsius.Overall the amp isn't throwing off much heat.At this stage would it be ok to put the cover on?I did drill out the top of the cover for insurance,before the op amp upgrade it ran very cool,plan on letting it run for 4 days straight for the burn in period.



Great work!!! With a drilled cover like yours, heat should be no problem.


----------



## naka9

Hello to all

I am a recent user of the H10 and I need some assistance with the setting of my Gustard H10 headphone amplifier which I had recently fitted a pair or V5-OPA-D with the AD797 that I already had. I love the H10's sound with my Hifiman HE 400i and Parasound Dac.

I now want to try the balanced input (to use another DAC) and when I flip down both dip switches labeled as “unbalanced” I got no sound at all. 
Am I wrong about the switches operation logic: UP is ON and DOWN is OFF?
If I want to use the XLR inputs all switches must be down, right?

I have fast-read all the hundred of pages of this thread but I have found no definitive answer on this subject... and can't find an instructions manual either.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## VRacer-111

Up would be balanced, down unbalanced. And make sure any DIP switching is done with the amp unpowered or you can damage it.


----------



## naka9

Ok thanks VRacer-111  
My confusion has made when "unbalance" is marked UP that is the same direction as ON... but now I know that it is just an labeling error.


----------



## naka9

I forgot... I am using the +12 setting on the unbalanced set up... should I keep it? Try the +6?
Or turn down all gain DIP switches down?


----------



## VRacer-111

Either way (+12 or +6 gain) for the DIP switches is fine for the Burson opamps, really depends on headphones you use and amount of volume adjustment you want to have. Adjust accordingly. You don't want all the DIP switches down if you are using those Burson opamps as it will over-stress and fail them over time - they have to be used with either the +6 or +12 setting per direction from of Burson.


----------



## naka9

Understood . Thanks


----------



## URNape2

Hey y'all, I've been enjoying my H10 for some time now with the K702 Annies, but I have yet to purchase a DAC.  I'm thinking about switching from cans to in-ear buds, but currently the best ones I have are the Etymotic HF5s.  When I use those in the H10, I get a constant slight buzz, which at low volume can be very annoying.  I'm wondering if this is perhaps something a good DAC would fix?  I'm very new to audio gear, but picked up the H10 based on all the recommendations here and I love it, so thank you all for the great info!  Cheers!


----------



## fritobugger

URNape2 said:


> Hey y'all, I've been enjoying my H10 for some time now with the K702 Annies, but I have yet to purchase a DAC.  I'm thinking about switching from cans to in-ear buds, but currently the best ones I have are the Etymotic HF5s.  When I use those in the H10, I get a constant slight buzz, which at low volume can be very annoying.  I'm wondering if this is perhaps something a good DAC would fix?  I'm very new to audio gear, but picked up the H10 based on all the recommendations here and I love it, so thank you all for the great info!  Cheers!



Have you reduced the gain on the H10 to -12?  That might reduce the buzz.  Can you borrow a DAC from someone to try out whether that will fix it?  Is it possibly a ground loop issue?  If so, try moving to a different power outlet.


----------



## URNape2

fritobugger said:


> Have you reduced the gain on the H10 to -12?  That might reduce the buzz.  Can you borrow a DAC from someone to try out whether that will fix it?  Is it possibly a ground loop issue?  If so, try moving to a different power outlet.



Sweet, thanks very much for the advice, I will try that!  I've heard that some IEMs can be quite sensitive, so I just figured that was probably it.  I haven't really read up yet on how all this stuff actually works as far as ohms, impedance, gain, and all that good stuff.  Just trying to enjoy some great sound for now! 

If anyone has any recommendations for a good mid-range DAC to pair with the H10, I'd really appreciate it!  And by mid-range, I'm talking like up to maybe $2-400 (as much as I'd love to splurge for something like the Gustard X-20, I'm sure it would be wasted on my undeveloped aural palette).  Currently got it hooked up to my PC motherboard's onboard sound, which I'm positive is less than ideal.

Thanks again all!


----------



## fritobugger

URNape2 said:


> Sweet, thanks very much for the advice, I will try that!  I've heard that some IEMs can be quite sensitive, so I just figured that was probably it.  I haven't really read up yet on how all this stuff actually works as far as ohms, impedance, gain, and all that good stuff.  Just trying to enjoy some great sound for now!
> 
> If anyone has any recommendations for a good mid-range DAC to pair with the H10, I'd really appreciate it!  And by mid-range, I'm talking like up to maybe $2-400 (as much as I'd love to splurge for something like the Gustard X-20, I'm sure it would be wasted on my undeveloped aural palette).  Currently got it hooked up to my PC motherboard's onboard sound, which I'm positive is less than ideal.
> 
> Thanks again all!



No real reason to spend a ton on a DAC when the differences are not really audible.  I would look at the Schiit Modi 3 and the Topping D30 first.  If those are too basic for you then look a the Topping D50.


----------



## audioholicx8x (Apr 18, 2019)

Hello everyone, I have 2 units of this amp and both broke. For the long story, please search it in reddit r/headphones/ I made a post there but the short bit of is this:

-It started is a infrequent small quit but noticable crackling sound at one side (the left ear side, first unit the right ear) but then it got bad and became  a very loud pop I almost shed tears cause I thought it blew my the driver of my expensive headphones.

-someone recommended to open the cover and I did , it decreased the problem a bit. . I think the cover was suffocating toasty internal way too much instead of acting as a heat dissipator.

-I tried with the top cover removed, it lasted few hours before the loud popping noise return. I basically have to use it for ~3 hours and shut it down for 2 hours if I don't want blow my headphones.

- I found something interesting while I was putting the headphones around my neck. Whenever there'e a pop noise to the driver, I also hear noise from the amp (top cover is removed). EDIT: --- one of the LEDS -the closest one to the headphone terminal- would go off for a couple of seconds---- 

I really can't afford to buy a new amp at the moment but I think I might give up and buy a JDSlabs atom


----------



## wwmhf

H10 is a hot amp for sure!


----------



## audioholicx8x

Is there a way to get replacemnt parts for the amp ? especially the transistor around the LEDs.


----------



## Dukei

Can you identify the transistors you want to change?


----------



## audioholicx8x (Apr 18, 2019)

Dukei said:


> Can you identify the transistors you want to change?


 to be honest, no, not exactly. cause I don't know which ones are broken. All I know that it the area closest to the headphones Jack.

This the problem I'm facing:



audioholicx8x said:


> Hello everyone, I have 2 units of this amp and both broke. For the long story, please search it in reddit r/headphones/ I made a post there but the short bit of is this:
> 
> -It started is a infrequent small quit but noticable crackling sound at one side (the left ear side, first unit the right ear) but then it got bad and became  a very loud pop I almost shed tears cause I thought it blew my the driver of my expensive headphones.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dukei

I don't see any protection circuit on the amp. Seems in order to check for dc on output with a DMM.


----------



## Dukei

And if you have expensive equipment it would be wise not to use it with the faulty amp. Or for that matter, a amp without protection circuit,


----------



## audioholicx8x (Apr 18, 2019)

Dukei said:


> And if you have expensive equipment it would be wise not to use it with the faulty amp. Or for that matter, a amp without protection circuit,


 
Thanks a lot for the advice. Yeah, I give on this amp. I spent 400$ and it only lasted 4 years


----------



## Madman242

It seems those transistors around the op-amps are the parts most prone to failure. Besides adding heat sinks (which is a great idea), is there an alternative transistor part with a higher rating that could used instead. Increased reliability would be great. If it could somehow improve sound quality, even better.


----------



## Dukei

There is alot of transistors to pick from, just a matter of deciding what spec to choose. Thats why it's important to identify the old transistors and choose something with higer rating.


----------



## Pham thach

Combo hugo > gustard h10> he500


----------



## Feilong4

Not sure if anyone's still looking for a unit, but I'm currently selling one here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-h10-amp.913846/

I really like the amp but I'd like the funds for something else.


----------



## MachineGunz

Hi,

Unfortunately I think that my Gustard H10 is slowly dying,

For the past few weeks I have been hearing pop and crackling sounds while listening to music / or even if the amp is just on and not getting any signal.

I switched dacs and rca cables and confirmed it's still happening. When I connected my LCD X's to my av receiver / my phone it didn't occur (thank god it's not my headphones).

I had it for around 3 years but I expected more from it.

Does anyone know if there is any way to fix this?

I would appreciate some good alternatives for the H10 to use with the LCD , and possibly the abyss / focal utopia / lcd 4 in the future - I might upgrade in a year and I would like to have a versatile amp.


----------



## mandrake50

If you can or know someone who can check the electrolytic caps , especially in the power supply section. I have had amps that have done the same thing and found this is a good place to start. Recapping it shouldn't be too difficult...  Though I admit that I haven't looked at mine with this in mind.


----------



## Madman242

MachineGunz said:


> Hi,
> 
> Unfortunately I think that my Gustard H10 is slowly dying,
> 
> ...


A couple others in this thread have reported a similar problem. If I recall, in each case it was just a matter of replacing a transistor or two.


----------



## mandrake50

checking out pervious posts is always a very good idea. No question. If _I _was in digging around in there I would be tempted to upgrade the electrolytics anyway...


----------



## Feilong4

Not sure if anyone is interested but I'm selling my unit. I have the listing here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-h10-amp.913846/


----------



## 69VanNuys

Greggo said:


> You would go from your computer's USB output into the U12, then from U12 you can go optical or digital coax into your DAC (The ifi nano iDSD?) and then into your H10 amp.  However, if you like the ifi stuff you could look at the iPurifier if you feel like you are having trouble between your computer and your iDSD.  If you are in fact using the iDSD then the purifier or Schiit Wyrd would be your only choice since you only have USB input on your DAC anyways.  You want, possibly, a USB purifier and not a USB to SPDIF converter.
> 
> You may also want to try different USB ports on your computer if you have more than one, they are not all equal, and you may want to try a different USB cable as you may have a termination defect causing noise or problems of some sort.
> 
> Are you sure jitter or USB noise is the problem you are experiencing?


Interesting advice to solve for the noise natra084 is having.   I have been looking for a thread talking about line noise because I have similar noise in my set up (Directstream DAC output via RCA to Dragon Inspire Tube amp to Focal Clea via 4-pin xlr).   With no music playing, I hear constant noise in the headphones unless the gain on the tube amp is all the way down.  If I remove the RCA cable from the input on the tube amp, the noise goes away.   Any thoughts Greggo or others?  Thanks, D


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

No_One411 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have the Gustard H10 on daily for about 6 hours and it does not seem to get very hot at all...
> 
> ...




Recently purchased an H10 with stock opamps and it runs cool.   I was concerned about some other H10 owners 
describing how hot their H10s ran.   And some with Burson upgraded opamps that were burning up.  It would
appear that some of the upgraded opamps were the problem, and that the stock opamps run fine.

The H10 really does sound quite good. 😊


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

Socratease said:


> I brought my Gustard X10/DAC X12 stack to the San Francisco HeadFi meet last Saturday.  Though looking rather outclassed among the summit-fi gear, the combination driving HE-500 cans drew complimentary reviews from those that tried it.  I have the full Burson V5 upgrade in my X10, and at the end of the show DecentLevi put it up against a few other amps for side-by-side comparisons.  He thought the X10 sounded better than the Cavalli Liquid Carbon that was there (he mentioned it was a discontinued version, though), but that it was edged out by his 6-tube configured Feliks Elise, which he felt was more revealing of detail.




I bought a Gustard H10 recently and really like it.  Have been reading through the H10 thread and saw a post with a 
photo of an H10 with a Supreme Sound logo on the faceplate.  Was this a special order H10?  Or an aftermarket
modification?


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

No_One411 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have the Gustard H10 on daily for about 6 hours and it does not seem to get very hot at all...
> 
> ...




Same here.   My H10 runs cool.   In think it's the aftermarket op amps that force the H10 to run hot.


----------



## DBX1

Hello all.  I just acquired a Gustard H10 Headphone Amp.  It sounds fantastic.  To get the most out of it - I purchased the Burson V6 Classic Opamps.  When the V6 Opamps are in place, I get no sound output.  The LEDs light up.  However, when I turn up the volume from the Gustard, the LEDs dim.  This does not happen when the stock opamps in place.  When I place the stock OpAmps back in place, no problems with getting sound.

All DIP switches are set down - or in the "off" position".

Any ideas anyone ?

Thanks.


----------



## Jimmyblues1959 (Oct 1, 2021)

DBX1 said:


> Hello all.  I just acquired a Gustard H10 Headphone Amp.  It sounds fantastic.  To get the most out of it - I purchased the Burson V6 Classic Opamps.  When the V6 Opamps are in place, I get no sound output.  The LEDs light up.  However, when I turn up the volume from the Gustard, the LEDs dim.  This does not happen when the stock opamps in place.  When I place the stock OpAmps back in place, no problems with getting sound.
> 
> All DIP switches are set down - or in the "off" position".
> 
> ...



Just my opinion, but it seems like there have been several H10 owners who have had problems with certain Burson aftermarket opamps.  Are you sure that these opamps are installed correctly?  I have heard of people installing them backwards. 

I know that the V5 opamps were actually running so hot that they were burning up in the H10.  Burson offered other opamps
to replace the V5 including the V5i and V6.  Not sure if they remedied the problem with the V5.  I have a stock H10 and am
very pleased with its performance.  It also runs very cool.  Hope this has been of some help and best of luck!


----------



## DBX1

Yes, I've been careful not to install the op-amps backwards.  But it just does not want to output anything with the Bursons installed.  I also read about people having issues with the V5 opamps.

Maybe I will just have to return the Burson OpAmps for a refund.  Yeah, the H10 does sound great !!!


----------



## DBX1

Is there any chance that anyone is using heatsinks on the transistors ?  I heard those can get hot too.


----------



## hpamdr

DBX1 said:


> Yes, I've been careful not to install the op-amps backwards.  But it just does not want to output anything with the Bursons installed.  I also read about people having issues with the V5 opamps.
> 
> Maybe I will just have to return the Burson OpAmps for a refund.  Yeah, the H10 does sound great !!!


I've installed V5 opamps and even if it worked for 2 months one day v5 burned and damaged the pcb... I was never able to repair the amp !


----------



## Remusz911

I join the club today.

Google Album

It has 4 Burson V5i opas, bought it used from Denmark, for 1900 DKR.

The sound is very good, with the HD800S, the bass became tighter and punchier, the soundstage has expanded a bit, and details have improved a bit.

The DAC is Grace Design SDAC from Drop.


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

Remusz911 said:


> I join the club today.
> 
> Google Album
> 
> ...


Congratulations!   The H10 puts out plenty of current and voltage to easily drive the HD800S.  It should be an excellent pairing.
Just make sure that the op amps don't overheat.  Best of luck 😊


----------



## Remusz911 (Dec 28, 2022)

Jimmyblues1959 said:


> Congratulations!   The H10 puts out plenty of current and voltage to easily drive the HD800S.  It should be an excellent pairing.
> Just make sure that the op amps don't overheat.  Best of luck 😊


Thank you!
It sounds fantastic, I am so pleased with it and it wasn't even that expensive, especially if I sell my previous amp, which is inferior to my ears.

Yes, I have read about overheating. When that can happen? If it's very hot summer and you listen to it for 10 hours on high volume?

And if it overheats what happens? You have to replace an opamp? Or it starts to burn? Should I buy replacement opamps, just in case?

Is there some kind of good quality heat spreader? I don't want my Gustard H10 to be damaged in any way.


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

Remusz911 said:


> Thank you!
> It sounds fantastic, I am so pleased with it and it wasn't even that expensive, especially if I sell my previous amp. Maybe 100 USD I will lose. (Okay, I'm in Hungary, so for us 100 USD is more  )
> 
> Yes, I have read about overheating. When that can happen? If it's very hot summer and you listen to it for 10 hours on high volume?
> ...


The overheating issue was the result of aftermarket op amps that were used in place of the H10's stock op amps.
The Burson V5 was a problem due to an improper voltage with the H10 that caused the overheating issue. Several H10
owners who swapped their stock op amps for Burson V5 op amps had over heating issues with their H10's. Some of the
H10's suffered serious damage to their printed circuit boards when the V5's overheated and caught fire.

If you read through the Gustard H10 thread you will find this information.

 The H10 with the stock op amps should run cool.


----------



## Remusz911

Jimmyblues1959 said:


> The overheating issue was the result of aftermarket op amps that were used in place of the H10's stock op amps.
> The Burson V5 was a problem due to an improper voltage with the H10 that caused the overheating issue. Several H10
> owners who swapped their stock op amps for Burson V5 op amps had over heating issues with their H10's. Some of the
> H10's suffered serious damage to their printed circuit boards when the V5's overheated and caught fire.
> ...


But I have the Burson V5i 

Does that make a difference?


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

Remusz911 said:


> But I have the Burson V5i
> 
> Does that make a difference?



I believe the V5i was offered by Burson as a replacement for the V5 heating problem, and that the V5i does not have the overheating issue.


----------



## Remusz911 (Dec 28, 2022)

Jimmyblues1959 said:


> I believe the V5i was offered by Burson as a replacement for the V5 heating problem, and that the V5i does not have the overheating issue.


Yes, in the meantime I have searched in this forum and found:

_I got this back from Burson..._

_"Yes, the V5i is 100% compatible with the H10.  Our fully discrete V5 sometimes has problems with the heat level inside the H10, depending on the user habits.  The V5i has no problems with heat at all. : )
Best regards,
Alex"_

I have found the v5i-s I have are actually the cheaper solution.
I am researching this topic, is it possible to install 2 Burson V6 vivids and leave two v5i-s in place? Like mixing the two types. What will happen?

If it is possible, duals or singles?


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

Remusz911 said:


> Yes, in the meantime I have searched in this forum and found:
> 
> _I got this back from Burson..._
> 
> ...


I've read that duals can cause more heating problems than singles...


----------



## jffyg (Jan 1, 2023)

Just got a H10, use it with HiFiMan Edition XS, Philips Fidelios, AKG Q701s. I have so far changed the opamps to LT1355 and LT1122, I found this very revealing of source material but slightly unnatural in the trebble and midrange, too stringent, but super revealing. So I changed the LT1355 to an OPA2228P and this has been very pleasant.  I have ordered 2 of the last qty (13) OPA627 opamps from Digikey and will report on the differences. I believe the H10 is a very high value product, and very fun with the changeable opamps.


----------



## Jimmyblues1959

jffyg said:


> Just got a H10, use it with HiFiMan Edition XS, Philips Fidelios, AKG Q701s. I have so far changed the opamps to LT1355 and LT1122, I found this very revealing of source material but slightly unnatural in the trebble and midrange, too stringent, but super revealing. So I changed the LT1355 to an OPA2228P and this has been very pleasant.  I have ordered 2 of the last qty (13) OPA627 opamps from Digikey and will report on the differences. I believe the H10 is a very high value product, and very fun with the changeable opamps.



The H10 is a great sounding headphone amplifier and a tremendous value on the used market.  Even new at $399.99 it was a bargain.
I hope you enjoy your H10 and wish you and yours a Happy New Year!  😊


----------



## Remusz911

My small report on the Burson V6 Vivid upgrade on the Gustard H10

Pictures

Compared to the Burson v5i's, I feel an improvement, the quality of the bass has improved (became a little tighter, punchier), perhaps the mids have remained, or there is little  noticeable change, perhaps the singer came closer, the treble has become more beautiful and clear.

So I think it was worth the 100 euros, at the moment I don't want anything better.

Replacing them wasn't particularly difficult, the Burson v5i's came out easily with the help of my fingers, putting in the new ones in wasn't particularly difficult either. However, the spacers (or adapters) were needed.

However I've had issues with the Gustard screws  holding the cover, I was afraid that they would be damaged that they would stay inside (they were already quite worn out), so when assembling I only put back only one of the side screws which was in the better condition
So only one screw is screwed back, but at least it gets some air, some heat can escape where the holes are, and it will be easier the next time I take it apart, I only have to unscrew one screw. It holds it's cover well anyway.


----------

