# ...Pico Slim vs RSA Protector!



## jelt2359

These two juggernauts (in reputation, not size) are being released almost literally on the same day. Which will you guys go for?


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## hvu

I went with the Protector because I was planning to go balanced later on anyways and I always wanted to balanced my HD650


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## YtseJamer

I will purchase both amps.


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## jc9394

I went for both, I can always sell one if I don't like one of them. Balanced JH13 and HD600 and Slim for the rest of SE IEM I have.


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## gbacic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hvu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I went with the Protector because I was planning to go balanced later on anyways and I always wanted to balanced my HD650_

 

You'll have to DIY a balanced cable for the HD650 if you want to use the Protector since it does not use any standard balanced out.


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## lisnalee

I'm going for the pico slim. 

 For now i'd prefer the smaller size and digital volume control rather than going balanced with my livewires.


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## hvu

I already have a extra HD650 cable sitting around waiting to be recable once the get connector.


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## kunalraiker

I would say the protector, as its balanced with ample power to be a standalone desktop balanced amp.

 The PICO slim is another Pico in a slim chassis.


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## justin w.

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kunalraiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The PICO slim is another Pico in a slim chassis._

 

The Pico Slim doesn't share a single component or circuit with the original Pico amp


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## Head_case

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jelt2359* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_These two juggernauts (in reputation, not size) are being released almost literally on the same day. Which will you guys go for?_

 

You already have a Milletts TTVJ Portable like mine. Now to keep up and get the Pico Slim Jelt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I like the design philosophy of the Pico Slim. If I want a desktop amp, I'll get a proper desk. Then a desk top amp


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## Duggeh

If I were in the market, I'd pick the Pico Slim because it's so small and light as to be not there, offers great ease of battery replacement, has digital volume control (very important for fine control with sensitive IEMs) and is best suited toward use with IEMs which are my portable headphone format of choice.

 I wouldn't pick the Protector because its larger, heavier, doesn't look as nice, uses an absolutely dreadful choice of connector (inelegant, poor ergonomics, no rotation, low number of connection cycles before fault and/or failure) for the balanced output, doesn't offer the digital volume control and is endorsed with a fervour that I find on the mistrustfully fanatical by a member whos opinions I read with a very large degree of caution but who a great many regard as some kind of papal authority on small amps.


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## WalkGood

Slim FTW … patiently waiting on the list, btw I also have the Pico/DAC amp and am very happy with it.


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## shigzeo

I am sure they are both great amps, but both are for different iems, different purposes. They BOTH look sexy to me and I am sure they will both be excellent amps. The Slim, however, is slimmer (duh) and dear me... so full of personal expectation!


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## charlie0904

wait till Justin pulls off a balanced portable amp to the battle.


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## shigzeo

iBasso are also working on one! Great year ahead.


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## travisg

I'm sure when the pico slim comes out it will be awesome but im going with the protector because I have used Rays Amps before and he says this one is awesome. Plus I can pic up the phone and talk straight to Ray.


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## IPodPJ

The Protector with balanced output is in another league from any portable amp I've ever heard, including the original Pico w/DAC. It sounds like a desktop amp.

 I have no use for a portable but if I did I'd buy the Protector in a split second.


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## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kunalraiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would say the protector, as its balanced with ample power to be a standalone desktop balanced amp.
_

 

What balanced full-sized phones did you use it with?


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## Iron_Dreamer

Pico Slim all the way, and I am looking forward to it!


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## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Protector with balanced output is in another league from any portable amp I've ever heard, including the original Pico w/DAC. *It sounds like a desktop amp*.

 I have no use for a portable but if I did I'd buy the Protector in a split second._

 

I think I've heard this about every portable amp RSA has put out and I don't believe it's been true yet. I'll be buying a Slim.


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## M3NTAL

I already have a full size balanced amplifier - I'm going with the Slim for the digital volume control and form factor.


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## mesasone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gbacic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You'll have to DIY a balanced cable for the HD650 if you want to use the Protector since it does not use any standard balanced out._

 

Or just DIY an adapter from a standard balanced to the connector used by The Protector.


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## qusp

slim, i'm waiting for a more true balanced solution that actually accepts balanced input. I find it a little odd that once portable dacs with a balanced signal path are released shortly, the protector will not be able tpo be used with them except through a single ended adapter


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## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M3NTAL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I already have a full size balanced amplifier - I'm going with the Slim for the digital volume control and form factor._

 

word.


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## dfkt

Pico Slim seems to be an amp based on research, and looks to be an upgrade to the former Pico.

 Protector seems to be an amp based on big words and mil-spec nail polish.


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## itsborken

Two men enter, one man leaves. I'm waiting for word of a balanced pico DAC.

 My concerns with the HD650s was the scooped out mids. I kept them for two years to try them balanced but it didn't turn them into keepers. YMMV.


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## Currawong

I'm going to leave the Protector to the early adopters to see how the connector fares. Once I have JH-13s or similar I might consider a balanced portable amp. However, considering things such as the lack of digital volume control on the Protector, suggest to me that it has been rushed to market somewhat, I think my choice of a Slim is the better one. Just seems most to be concerned with getting his designs perfect, and Ray more with getting his designs released sooner.


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## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dfkt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pico Slim seems to be an amp based on research, and looks to be an upgrade to the former Pico.

 Protector seems to be an amp based on big words and mil-spec nail polish._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ ...Just seems most to be concerned with getting his designs perfect, and Ray more with getting his designs released sooner._

 

Agreed and agreed...*bring me my Pico Slim please.*


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## WalkGood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I've heard this about every portable amp RSA has put out and I don't believe it's been true yet. I'll be buying a Slim._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dfkt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pico Slim seems to be an amp based on research, and looks to be an upgrade to the former Pico.

 Protector seems to be an amp based on big words and mil-spec nail polish._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ … However, considering things such as the lack of digital volume control on the Protector, suggesting to me that it has been rushed to market somewhat, I think my choice of a Slim is the better one. Just seems most to be concerned with getting his designs perfect, and Ray more with getting his designs released sooner._

 

I couldn’t agree more, what a trifecta


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## wuwhere

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_slim, i'm waiting for a more true balanced solution that actually accepts balanced input. I find it a little odd that once portable dacs with a balanced signal path are released shortly, the protector will not be able tpo be used with them except through a single ended adapter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yup, just waiting for that portable balanced DAC.


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## travisg

I will say this and let it go,everyone who has heard the protector has been blown away. Skylab has said that this amp is in a league of it's own and comparing it to other portables would not be fair.Also Ray has brought a totally different amp to market in a timely manner and didn't make us wait for ever unlike the slim which seems like we heard about while Reagan was still president. I will be happy to buy a slim if and when it comes out and someone who has heard more than two amps can contest to it being better than the protector.


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## The Monkey




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## Jarmel

Definitely more interested in the Protector as balanced made a pretty good jump on my HD800s and if the Protector is truly balanced as well then this should be in a league of its own.


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## belac

I'm going with both of them, that way I can decide for myself which one is best suitable for my ears. I have owned three RSA amps and have been blown away by all of them. This will be my first Pico, but I can't wait to hear what the fuss is about. I don't believe Ray has rushed anything to the market, I'm sure he has put alot of thought into the Protector, there is a difference when someone posts a thought on here and then begins the stages of design and when someone has a product designed and then brings it to our attention. We don't know how long the Protector has been in the works all we know is when Ray let us know about it.


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## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *travisg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will say this and let it go,everyone who has heard the protector has been blown away. Skylab has said that this amp is in a league of it's own...._

 

Nothing personal against him but he also thinks Darth(Barf) Beyers are the bee's knees. So I can pretty much disregard any impresses he has on audio gear. As for the other glowing impressions they come from the typical fan boys who I fear are closet shills. 

 That being said it still could be a great amp, minus the crappy balanced connector. 

 As for now I'll stick with my standard Pico for my JH13s until I actually get a chance to hear both for myself. 

 Sheep on people.


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## The Monkey

Let's not forget the TTVJ Portable, which is a pretty darn good amp.


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## belac

If we don't listen to the impressions of the people that visit this site on a steady basis then what are we doing on here. I come on here because I like portable audio gear, I didn't join this site to get the latest tips on how to make a quilt. We take opinions of the people on this site and we make a determination on what amp we want to buy. In the end it ends up being what sounds best to us, because we are all experts, just ask yourself, you'll agree!!!
 This is were we get our information, last time I checked at Wal-Mart I couldn't find an RSA or Pico amp.


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## jelt2359

Love the TTVJ! Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have achieved FOTM status... Perhaps if there were more reviews out there?


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## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *belac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If we don't listen to the impressions of the people that visit this site on a steady basis then what are we doing on here._

 

The trick is finding the ones who's tastes align to our own and filtering out the noise of all the attention whores and quasi shills.

 Edit: Monkey I live the rotating face palms!


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## belac

Anything that makes my wallett cry out in pain has to be good for me!!!!


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## Jarmel

Indeed the rotating facepalms are genius.


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## jelt2359

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_slim, i'm waiting for a more true balanced solution that actually accepts balanced input. I find it a little odd that once portable dacs with a balanced signal path are released shortly, the protector will not be able tpo be used with them except through a single ended adapter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Has any company announced a balanced source yet? Some other poster mentioned a balanced Pico.. if that is in the works, I may reevaluate my position on the Slim


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## qusp

yes, ibasso has one in the works as does the makers of the FiQuest. plus i'm making my own (not for sale), i'm not waiting for anyone to sell me one.

 also another option when the balanced sources are out is to simply make your own interconnect and buy 2 of whatever your favorite amp is, like the slim as it would still be very compact with 2. then feed them the balanced signal dual mono


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## SoupRKnowva

Is that just a balanced portable dac or are they DAP's with balanced outputs? Like i think once we get the gr9 device thingy for digital output out of the iPod, then all you would need is a portable balanced source and then the balanced amp. I Though i hope the gr9 is jsut a cable and not a built in dac, i would like to be able to chose my dac, though wouldnt the 8 channel sabre dac be the best choice for compact balanced output?


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## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is that just a balanced portable dac or are they DAP's with balanced outputs? Like i think once we get the gr9 device thingy for digital output out of the iPod, then all you would need is a portable balanced source and then the balanced amp. I Though i hope the gr9 is jsut a cable and not a built in dac, i would like to be able to chose my dac, though wouldnt the 8 channel sabre dac be the best choice for compact balanced output?_

 

the transport does not need to be balanced, digital data is not ever stored this way, balanced is only a method to transfer the electrical signal that carries the data more effectively.

 yes indeed the sabre would make a nice balanced portable  the though HAD crossed my mind already


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## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the transport does not need to be balanced, digital data is not ever stored this way, balanced is only a method to transfer the electrical signal that carries the data more effectively.

 yes indeed the sabre would make a nice balanced portable  the though HAD crossed my mind already_

 

oh i know the transport doesnt need to be balanced, but you could design a dap with a built in balanced dac and just have a balanced output. But thats why i was mentioning the gr9 thingy that allows for digital output out of the iPod, i think that would be perfect with a 8 channel sabre, so if you make one let me know, would you use 2 channels of the dac per "channel"? or only use 4 channels of the dac?


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## charlie0904

can the difference of a 8 channel sabre DAC vs 2 or 4 channel DAC be heard with JH13?


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## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *charlie0904* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can the difference of a 8 channel sabre DAC vs 2 or 4 channel DAC be heard with JH13?_

 

i only suggested the 8 channel because it would easily allow for balanced output without needing more than one chip, because i dont know of a 4 channel high end dac chip, they are all either mono or 2 channel, or the 8 channel sabre dac. And with a two channel you would need two of them or with mono you would need 4 of them, which i could see hard to fit into a portable device, hopefully no larger than the protector or Rx amps, and i wouldnt see that many chips being very easy on the batteries


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## MomijiTMO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I've heard this about every portable amp RSA has put out and I don't believe it's been true yet. I'll be buying a Slim._

 

Yup. There is a complementary question to RSA portables sounding as good as his desktop amps.....


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## EddieE

Went for RSA Protector, but obviously these two are not really competing as they are two amps with completely different aims.

 Pico Slim looks like a quality product through and through, but I don't have enough of a need for it to splash out yet.

 RSA Protector is a whole new concept and makes me excited. I'm on the pre-order list. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 EDIT: Looking at the comments on this thread, I can understand the hesitance about the Protector. If I had a few months worth of the kind of financial freedom I have now I'd probably wait and see as well.

 Bottom line, for reasons I won't bore anyone with for the past six/eight months I have been in an extremely good financial situation, this was always a set of circumstances limited to the end of April, back to reality... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So I'm throwing caution to the wind as an early adopter of this. I'm sure I'll have no problem selling it if I don't like it later down the road anyway.


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## EddieE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I've heard this about every portable amp RSA has put out and I don't believe it's been true yet. I'll be buying a Slim._

 

If RSA has been making this claim about past amps (hyperlinks to this anyone?) then the cynicism is understandable. Ray made some comment about wire thickness yesterday I found quite logically dubious and I will admit has caused me a bit of concern regarding credibility. 

 It should be pointed out that this claim about powering damanding full size phones has only been made regarding balanced mode of the amp, which uses two batteries.

 Those who have had review models from RSA have been tellingly reticent to talk much about single ended mode (perhaps an agreement with RSA not to mention negatives until after release? I'm not trying to float conspiracy theories here, just very hard to miss their avoidance of discussing SE mode), which I could guess is the same story as any other portable amp.

 I personally don't need another portable amp. I'm only interested in balanced sound that doesn't need a balanced source, it's an interesting idea.

 Despite being a bit more wary about this after reading opinions on this thread of people whoes I find credible and knowledgeable from past experience (dfkt and Walkgood), I think I'm still going to go ahead with the purchase. 

 I will give honest opinions to anyone who wants them regarding HD650 through a desktop SE Vs through a Protector balanced.


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## dfkt

Awesome, Eddie. Looking forward to your impressions.

 (Off-topic: Just tried my HD650 on the FiiO E7... it drives them just fine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EddieE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ray made some comment about wire thickness yesterday I found quite logically dubious and I will admit has caused me a bit of concern regarding credibility._

 

Yup, that one shocked me too. Since when do you need speaker wire for an adapter to sound good? Why wouldn't all the wire need to be 18AWG then and not just the adapter? And what about all the little board traces that are doing the exact same thing? And a 4-wire 18AWG adapter should be fun to try to tuck into your pocket.


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## The Monkey

Plus Ray's amps tend to have plenty of good bass, so I wouldn't think the wire gauge would be such a limiting factor.


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## TzeYang

lol^


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## Dreadhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EddieE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ray made some comment about wire thickness yesterday I found quite logically dubious and I will admit has caused me a bit of concern regarding credibility._

 

Claims like that one are rather egregious but sadly not uncommon in the audio field.


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## Jalo

Hey, guys, this is not an open season on Ray, Ray didn't made a claim, he made a suggestion which is not "egregious" or "dubious" or "nonsense". If anyone ever has any experience with cable outside of the headphone audio field you would know that as the quality of cable improves, normally, size or gauge improve proportionally also. For instance, I use Transparent Cable and Kimber Cable in my audio system, if you look at the size of transparent cable going from Music Link to Supra to Ultra to Reference etc, the gauge goes from string size to gardner hose size. I had a pair of B&W 801 and I had the Supra for a long time until one day my audio salesman put on a set of Ultra, I almost didn't recognize my speaker, I didn't know speaker can produce bass like that. It is definitely not nonsense but common knowledge in the cable world that bass quality "might" be affected by gauge size. Please don't demonise Ray for saying something that is rather commonly accepted in the cable world. At the very least, it is not groundless, egregious or nonsense. 

 As you can see, I am rather new to this field but I find it very distasteful to read all this personal attacks on someone who at least tries to bring new product to us. If I like a product, I am demonized and called fanboy. I do not understand how that same standard doesn't apply to themselves when they voted for the other product. By the way, I am on the preorder list of both and will give constructive comments for both products. I do not know either Justin or Ray, and I appreciate both trying to advance new technology in this narrow firld of interest.


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## blubliss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jalo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As you can see, I am rather new to this field ...._

 

Enough said. Then why don't you listen to the more senior who have more knowledge. I personally have recently done more scientific tests to challenge my own audiophile myths/beliefs. Guess what, the cable BS is just that, BS. In a controlled test a $200 thin cable beat a $3600 thick cable in all areas. I applaud the community for trying to put a stop to this type of viral BS marketing spouted by many in the field.


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## EddieE

*First:* I'm with you on supporting new technology; I'm buying an amp off the guy for quite a chunk of change, I certainly don't owe him any kind of specical treatment. 

*Second: *AFAIK the definition of the term "dubious" means doubtful or unconvincing.

 Since several posters were doubtful and unconvinced I would say that the term was perfectly fair, fitting and not a slur at all.


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## n_maher

I will only add, since I've posed my questions and had my say, that personal attacks in this thread or any other will not be tolerated. I don't see any here so far. What I do see are calm, well-reasoned explanations of why users may have taken issue with claims made by a manufacturer.


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## Ray Samuels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup, that one shocked me too. Since when do you need speaker wire for an adapter to sound good? Why wouldn't all the wire need to be 18AWG then and not just the adapter? And what about all the little board traces that are doing the exact same thing? And a 4-wire 18AWG adapter should be fun to try to tuck into your pocket. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Among all who post in this thread about my comments regarding the wire, I just take it with a grain of salt & let it slide, but when I read your post, Mr. DIYer, I get shocked for your attack & for not believing in a wire quality making a difference in sound reproduction, weather being on the bright side or leaning toward the dark. If it is that way why don't we all go to Radio Shack & wire our systems with that craps. This will be my last post in this thread.
 Ray Samuels


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## grawk

Wire quality and wire thickness aren't the same thing. At the power levels we're talking about for headphone amps, 18ga wire isn't required in the slightest.

 On top of that, his argument was two-fold. One, why would the thickness only matter in the adapter, and the absurdity of a 4 wire 18ga adapter in a supposedly portable device.

 Finally, there was no attack. Disagreement on issues is allowed, and setting up a strawman argument to avoid discussing the issues points out the weakness of your argument.


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## The Monkey

This is all pretty simple. I'm not sure why people don't get it, I make the following points generally, not with respect to Ray's claim specifically. (Ray is a trusted, experienced and accomplished MOT, so I would assume he has a reasonable basis for his claim about the wire gauge.) 

 When a manufacturer advertises its products, it is responsible for all reasonable interpretations of the claims made in those advertisements. Claims need to be based upon a reasonable basis for their assertion. 

 What constitutes a reasonable basis/substantiation varies from industry to industry, but "I say it; therefore it is so," is not, in my experience, a reasonable basis for claim substantiation. Advertisers resort all the time to language such as "may" or "can" or "we believe" and such language can help those advertisers argue that they are simply stating opinions. However, those are not magic words and they do not sanitize a communication about the capabilities or shortcomings of a product that would otherwise require substantiation.

 The bottom line is that the high-end audio industry is rife with unsubstantiated claims of technical excellence and/or superiority. That's not good for the consumer. Accordingly, asking for the backup for an MOT's claim is not only reasonable; it is entirely appropriate. Part of this community's (past?) greatness owes to the fact that its members are not satisfied with the status quo, unlike some other audio-related sites and/or publications. This community tends to try to cut through the marketing hype and hocus pocus. Or at least it used to.


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## n_maher

Ray,

 I most certainly believe in quality wire but hold no belief that *wire size* beyond the reasonable, makes any difference. I have never understood why Jena and others have insisted that headphone cables must be made to look like garden hoses to sound good. And all that I said was that your suggestion surprised me.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please if you make an adapter your self make sure you use a good quality wire with 18 AWG. Using thinner wire might not give you all the bottom end that the amp is capable of._

 

If you had said "please use quality wire" I don't think anyone would have given it a second glance. If I misunderstood something about what you were trying to say please correct me. As a manufacturer of quality goods I hold you to a higher standard and I have higher expectations, not because I believe you are inferior.


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## naamanf

Why not just take the scientific method and calculate what the actual loss is for a given gauge wire would be versus the other?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it is that way why don't we all go to Radio Shack & wire our systems with that craps. This will be my last post in this thread.
 Ray Samuels_

 

I'll eat my underwear with ketchup if you could tell the difference between "that craps" and any other wire of your choice.


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## M3NTAL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *naamanf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll eat my underwear with ketchup if you could tell the difference between "that craps" and any other wire of your choice._

 

And I'd pay to see that!


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## WalkGood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Among all who post in this thread about my comments regarding the wire, I just take it with a grain of salt & let it slide …_

 

I for one am surprised if this is; showing care about what your customers or potential customers believe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ … but when I read your post, Mr. DIYer, I get shocked for your attack & for not believing in a wire quality making a difference in sound reproduction, weather being on the bright side or leaning toward the dark. If it is that way why don't we all go to Radio Shack & wire our systems with that craps. This will be my last post in this thread.
 Ray Samuels_

 

I honestly don’t see where you have been attacked o_O and if some don’t believe in the general wire myth or what you believe in, it’s their prerogative. I for one don’t believe that wire size beyond a reasonable size is going to make a difference, especially in a portable, just look to the cable size that companies like JH Audio or UE use. BTW in a pinch I have bought some things from Radio Shack and have no issue with what I’ve bought. Again thanks for the enlightenment …


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## AudioDwebe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blubliss* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Enough said. Then why don't you listen to the more senior who have more knowledge. I personally have recently done more scientific tests to challenge my own audiophile myths/beliefs. Guess what, the cable BS is just that, BS. In a controlled test a $200 thin cable beat a $3600 thick cable in all areas. I applaud the community for trying to put a stop to this type of viral BS marketing spouted by many in the field._

 

Coming off a bit strong, are we not? Because you've been a member here for a while makes you knowledgeable? Pah-leeze!

 Just because "you" didn't find a difference in "your" test doesn't mean differences in cable sound quality does not exist. I heard a difference going from a Nordost Flatline Gold to a shotgun of Analysis Plus Silver Ovals. I then heard a difference going from the Silver Ovals to a shotgun run of the Acoustic Zen Satoris. 

 How 'bout IC's? They can make a difference, too. Going from a lower end Analysis Plus to the Nordost SPM Reference all around created a difference.

 Before you can hear any improvements, no matter how subtle, in a change of cabling, you've first got to have a very revealing system. Short of that, the subtle differences will go unnoticed.


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## AudioDwebe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will only add, since I've posed my questions and had my say, that personal attacks in this thread or any other will not be tolerated. I don't see any here so far. What I do see are calm, well-reasoned explanations of why users may have taken issue with claims made by a manufacturer._

 


 Did you even read the post in question? 

 Ray used the word "might". Since when did "might" become definitive?


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## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you even read the post in question? 

 Ray used the word "might". Since when did "might" become definitive?_

 

Since I quoted the post I think it's a fair assumption I read it. But let's go there again since you seem to be a fan of picking things apart. 

 Here's what Ray said:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please if you make an adaptor your self make sure you use a good quality wire with 18 AWG. Using thinner wire might not give you all the bottom end that the amp is capable of._

 

So he starts out with a definitive statement, i.e. use good wire, use 18AWG. Then he provides an "out" for those that may or may not perceive a difference. But the initial implication is clear, if you want "all the bottom end" you'll do as he says. I'm pretty sure I'm reading that correctly and have asked Ray to clarify if I'm not. 

 I think people jump way to quickly to the assumption that any time any one questions what a manufacturer has said that it's attack on their character or disrespectful. That's simply not the case. And to paraphrase another poster, if we can't ask questions about various statements what the heck are we doing here?


----------



## n_maher

*MODERATOR CLARIFICATION:*

 1. My posts in this thread are just that, mine, not a representation of what Head-Fi, its owner or other moderators think.
 2. The discussion of double-blind testing techniques is, per the rules, prohibited.


----------



## AudioDwebe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since I quoted the post I think it's a fair assumption I read it. But let's go there again since you seem to be a fan of picking things apart. 

 Here's what Ray said:



 So he starts out with a definitive statement, i.e. use good wire, use 18AWG. Then he provides an "out" for those that may or may not perceive a difference. But the initial implication is clear, if you want "all the bottom end" you'll do as he says. I'm pretty sure I'm reading that correctly and have asked Ray to clarify if I'm not. 

 I think people jump way to quickly to the assumption that any time any one questions what a manufacturer has said that it's attack on their character or disrespectful. That's simply not the case. And to paraphrase another poster, if we can't ask questions about various statements what the heck are we doing here?_

 


 Those two sentences you quoted, in essence, says: If you don't use a quality cable of 18 gauges or more, you might not get all the bass the amp is capable of delivering.

 Which basically means you might, but you might not.

 I combined both sentences to obtain the meaning. By your own definition, it appears your "picking things apart", no?


----------



## gp_hebert

Just a quick reminder for those that are trying to start cable debates to derail the thread, the debate here is not about whether cables can make a difference or not, it's about Ray's post on the relation between wire gauge and bass, which many of us find suspect.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I combined both sentences to obtain the meaning. By your own definition, it appears your "picking things apart", no?_

 

So clearly we read things differently and maybe neither of us is right or wrong, but when you make a pretty sarcastic statement that you already know is not true you do your point a disservice. Speak of points, the point here is that at least to a fairly large number of us it appeared as if Ray was making a very specific recommendation about wire size. He somewhat confirmed that in his reply to me (although he only mentioned quality, not size) and certainly hasn't clarified it further since. Since he stated he did not wish to discuss it further in this thread I PM'd him and haven't gotten a reply. Maybe he'll do that later?


----------



## tyrion

The emphasis in Ray's sentence as written was not on the word "might". The emphasis was to make sure you use 18 awg wire because if you don't, you are not going to get the bottom the amp is capable of. AudioDwebe, you can read Ray's statements any way you want but I believe you are wrong in your interpretation.


----------



## jelt2359

Answer given, so I'm removing this. Back on track = good!


----------



## jelt2359

Removed. I support the back-on-trackness of the thread


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jelt2359* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Mod,

 Could you point me to where I can see the rule on prohibiting double-blind testing techniques? I googled 'head-fi' and 'double blind', and came up only with this other thread that seems to have discussion of the issue : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f9/sac...lacebo-356139/ It's also not on this page : Head-Fi Rules and Terms of Use nor did anything turn up when I searched the FAQ for "double".

 Thanks! I would like to know because 1) I'm just curious 2) obviously there are some rules I didn't know about so I would like to avoid such things in future.._

 

It's a sticky in the Cable forum:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/do...-forum-227350/


----------



## AudioDwebe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So clearly we read things differently and maybe neither of us is right or wrong, but when you make a pretty sarcastic statement that you already know is not true you do your point a disservice. Speak of points, the point here is that at least to a fairly large number of us it appeared as if Ray was making a very specific recommendation about wire size. He somewhat confirmed that in his reply to me (although he only mentioned quality, not size) and certainly hasn't clarified it further since. Since he stated he did not wish to discuss it further in this thread I PM'd him and haven't gotten a reply. Maybe he'll do that later?_

 

What sarcastic statement that I know is untrue? 

 I consider this sarcasm: But let's go there again since you seem to be a fan of picking things apart.

 Obviously, you do not.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The emphasis in Ray's sentence as written was not on the word "might". The emphasis was to make sure you use 18 awg wire because if you don't, you are not going to get the bottom the amp is capable of. AudioDwebe, you can read Ray's statements any way you want but I believe you are wrong in your interpretation._

 

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to read and then interpret what I read. 

 And, for the record, I believe you are wrong in your interpetation.


----------



## extremetito

Shouldn't the Pico slim be more properly compared against the RSA Shadow?
 Or am I missing something?


----------



## xuan87

i've read through this whole thread, and lets just say that this thread was not what i've expected from the title ( no idea why a question of pico slim or protector will become about cable gauge. should'nt someone start another thread on it if they feel strongly on it?)

 anyway, i'm on the preorder for both. firstly for the slim: i've been in the market for a amp with a small size factor for a while and i was thinking of getting both the shadow and pico slim to compare which i like and sell off the other. however, before the preorder for the shadow started, i got a chance to test it at a meet, and found that it wasn't to my liking ( not that it wasn't good, i just don't like it). so pico slim became the only choice left. i know the waiting time for the slim has been long, but personally i was glad of that because it gave me time to sort out my finances, i'll call it a blessing in disguise.

 the protector will be my 3rd RSA amp, the 1st being the Blackbird, and the 2nd being the Mustang. I sold off both of them because i was able to sell them off at close to cost price, leaving me with the funds to buy something else. till now, the only portable amp i'm using is the FiiO E1, which is fantastic for its size, but that's for another thread. The Protector is appealing to me because i feel that it is the 1st balanced amp that is truly portable. it is a risk i'm willing to take. Though many have claimed that the Protector is powerful enough to be a desktop amp, i'll trust my ears on that. However, i do not plan on getting a balanced desktop anytime soon so if the Protector does turn out to be that powerful, then that is an extra bonus.some have critized the design of the Protector and the choice of plug but i think only time will tell if it will be a good choice or not. 

 in conclusion, i think the 2 amps are aiming at different markets as i'm getting them for 2 totally different reasons. i will be happy to post a simple review of both amps when i've received them. i believe justin will start shipping early next week and ray will do so 2 weeks later.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What sarcastic statement that I know is untrue?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you even read the post in question?_

 

Considering I quoted Ray's post 4 posts and 2 hours prior to your own I think it's safe to say you knew I'd read it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I consider this sarcasm: But let's go there again since you seem to be a fan of picking things apart.

 Obviously, you do not._

 

No, that was well and truly sarcastic, glad you interpreted that correctly.


----------



## WalkGood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *extremetito* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Shouldn't the Pico slim be more properly compared against the RSA Shadow?
 Or am I missing something?_

 

I agree, but that's not what the OP started the thread out before it got derailed.


----------



## xuan87

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *extremetito* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Shouldn't the Pico slim be more properly compared against the RSA Shadow?
 Or am I missing something?_

 

in term of design objectives and target consumers, the pico slim would be more properly compared against the RSA Shadow.

 however, because the release date for the Pico slim and the Protector are so closed to each other, it will be interesting to see which one will people choose, espically if you can't have both. that's probably the purpose of this thread.


----------



## TheWuss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *extremetito* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Shouldn't the Pico slim be more properly compared against the RSA Shadow?
 Or am I missing something?_

 

no, you're not missing anything. the "who's buying which" poll is simply because they are two anticipated products coming out at the same time, not so much because they are similar...


----------



## belac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xuan87* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in term of design objectives and target consumers, the pico slim would be more properly compared against the RSA Shadow.

 however, because the release date for the Pico slim and the Protector are so closed to each other, it will be interesting to see which one will people choose, espically if you can't have both. that's probably the purpose of this thread._

 

Thanks for hopefully getting this thread back on topic, I thought for a minute there I was watching a remake of The Notebook so many tears were being shed.The comparison should be Shadow vs. Slim, not balanced against unbalanced.


----------



## blubliss

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Coming off a bit strong, are we not? Because you've been a member here for a while makes you knowledgeable? Pah-leeze!_

 

I wasn't talking about myself.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Before you can hear any improvements, no matter how subtle, in a change of cabling, you've first got to have a very revealing system. Short of that, the subtle differences will go unnoticed._

 

I think my system is quite revealing and I was speaking of ICs. My mind used to believe it could hear differences, now it does not after I forced myself to do a real test.


----------



## gp_hebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *belac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for hopefully getting this thread back on topic, I thought for a minute there I was watching a remake of The Notebook so many tears were being shed.The comparison should be Shadow vs. Slim, not balanced against unbalanced._

 

It's hard to tell now because the amps aren't released yet, but in the end shouldn't it be sound quality vs sound quality? Being balanced doesn't mean it's better, you'd have to compare the circuits of the two amps and measure the specs to really know which one performs the best. Balanced vs unbalanced is a totally acceptable comparison.


----------



## belac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gp_hebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's hard to tell now because the amps aren't released yet, but in the end shouldn't it be sound quality vs sound quality? Being balanced doesn't mean it's better, you'd have to compare the circuits of the two amps and measure the specs to really know which one performs the best. Balanced vs unbalanced is a totally acceptable comparison._

 

Is it not common to get a better sound out of balanced rather than unbalanced?


----------



## monsieurguzel

I agree with gp_hebert about the balanced / unbalanced. A balanced headphone amp doesn't automatically make it 'better' and unbalanced. I recently ordered a new amp from Woo and asked whether I should get a WA22 (balanced) or a WA5 (unbalanced), thinking that the balanced would automatically be better with HD800. Jack's response was "The WA5 is still our top performer among our line-up. It certainly sounds better than the WA22. Balanced design does not mean is better."

 I will most likely be purchasing a Predator, but will be judging it on the sound quality and not automatically assume its better due to being balanced.


----------



## xuan87

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *belac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it not common to get a better sound out of balanced rather than unbalanced?_

 

it is common, but not necessarily true. it is also usually the case that balanced amps cost more than unbalanced amps, but that is not necessarily true as well. it will be interesting to compare them both based SOLELY on sound quality. I plan to do that, then factor in the rest ( price, size, etc etc) to decide which is the better choice for me.


----------



## gp_hebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *belac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it not common to get a better sound out of balanced rather than unbalanced?_

 

If you compare an unbalanced version to a balanced version of the same design, I believe the balanced version will perform better in most aspects, if not all. On the other hand, comparing one balanced amp to another unbalanced one doesn't mean anything, you have compare the circuits (i.e. a single-ended B22 will perform better than a balanced CMOY).

 Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me in electronics can complete what I said with a more technical explanation...


----------



## MomijiTMO

I've got to admit, I'm a little surprised by what has happened since I last visited this thread.... I do hope to see an answer though.


----------



## monsieurguzel

I feel that when running single ended on balanced amps always results in poor SQ because the amp is always designed with balanced circuit in mind. The second you go to single ended, doesn't it cut the part of the circuit / current going to the headphones out? I feel that when designing an amp, most builders thoroughly tweak the components / sound to fit their liking, and if an amp is designed as balanced, then that sound takes highest priority in the SQ over the unbalanced output.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to read and then interpret what I read. 

 And, for the record, I believe you are wrong in your interpetation._

 

It doesn't matter whose interpretation is right or wrong; advertisers are responsible for all reasonable interpretations of their claims.


----------



## AudioDwebe

I, too, vote for back on track.

 Sorry.

 To the OP: I'm on the preorder list for the balanced portable. I was seriously considering the Pico slim, but realized that by the time I decided to get a portable amp, the list was pretty long and the wait time for the new batch was something I didn't want to deal with.

 I'm not entirely sure the Protector will work for me size-wise, but I liked the idea of having one in a few weeks versus whenever numbers around 450 or so would have been made by Justin. 

 It'd be nice to get both just to compare, but don't see that happening.


----------



## shigzeo

I suppose ordering either one will not be a miss: both are fuelled by a high amount of expectation and both will probably resell for close to their MSRP, minus shipping - who knows, it might be they are so good that people cannot wait for Justin or Ray to make them and you get more if you don't care for either.

 My demand list for a portable amp are pretty stiff: firstly hiss on par or less than the iBasso P3+ with AD2111 in the L/R, 634 in buff and V/G bypassed. That amount of hiss (very minimal) is important for sensitive earphones.

 But, where the P3+ still doesn't eek out the last bit of resolution from iems, I would hope that either the Slim in SE and/or the Protector (and the Shadow) eek out the last bit of resolution.

 Saying that, there has to be smoothness; my T3D and T3 are amazing for the price - that is no doubt, but they lack the finesse of the P3+ and the D4. Power and finesse - a duality.


----------



## monsieurguzel

For me the size of the predator is not an issue at all. I will be using mine as part of an office rig, so its not an issue at all. If anything I might prefer it over my Mustang, which seemed a little too small in terms of holding up an iPod Touch and changing the volume on.

 As for balancing headphones, I'm thinking of re-terminating my ESW10JPN headphones. I'm wondering if there would be much benefit for them. The only headphones I hear people talk about are the JH13 (which I refuse to spend that much money for something I can't resell) or the HD650 which to me defeat the purpose of using a portable amp.


----------



## shigzeo

I've heard a balanced Ultrasone ED8 and it was lovely, but then, the SE was lovely too. It was from a portable amp back in December and it split a SE signal just like the Predator does.


----------



## Currawong

Just a thought: Heavier gauge speaker wire has more bass because that's the kind of distortion of the signal it introduces. Nordost interconnects are a good example of distortion: As you go up the range, the gauge increases and the tonality of the signal is distorted in different ways. For example, the popular Heimdall causes the mids to come forward. This is easy to hear with clear studio recordings that have a variety of instruments being played. I recall someone writing that while the Protector sounded good with full-sized headphones, that the bass was clearly weak. I don't really agree with the idea of fixing this by using a thick cable to distort the sound as a means of compensation. Mind you, the idea of using a portable amp to power full-sized headphones I still consider relatively poor though it will be interesting to see how far this idea can be taken.


----------



## TzeYang

^where did you pull that one out of?


----------



## EddieE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monsieurguzel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...the HD650 which to me defeat the purpose of using a portable amp._

 

I can see where you're coming from but it depends on how you approach the product.

 Just because the unit is small enough to be portable, there is no reason it has to be bought for portable use. Personally I am buying it because it is a (relatively) affordable entry into balanced sound.To say running HD650s from a portable amp defeats it's purpose circumvents the fact that if it does indeed run them to a high standard, it's size is entirely irrelevant to proceedings. I doubt it will ever leave my desk top if I keep it. 

 My current feeling, after being to a recent meet and hearing a lot of good headphones, is my HD650 are still my favoruite phones and I don't see that changing anytime soon. So, where do I go next in terms of trying to improve my experience?

 There are a thousand variables but the two main options are to get a tube amp or to get a balanced set up.

 The former is potentially a lot cheaper or easier to achieve; there are some fairly well regarded tube amps out there in the £100-£200 bracket and a lot of information and kits for DIY tube amps as well. The latter, up until now, was ridiculously expensive. Balanced desk top amps cost some serious change, and then you have to add a balanced DAC to the equasion as well, oh and a balanced cable as well. While getting or building a tube amp remains an open option to consider, there are a lot more obstacles in the way of a balanced set up.

 What this amp promises (and whether it delivers or not we will see) is a way to get balanced sound in a single, conveniently small device, and it came around at a point where I could afford it whereas in a few months I would not be able to. It is also a very innovative idea of Ray's and I do believe in rewarding innovation with at the very least the benefit of the doubt.

 Some have questioned whether balanced sound is better or worth it. Well the only way I will be sure is to spend some time comparing the two and the protector offers a convenient way to do that. It's not like I can't sell it later down the line if I decide it's not a significant enough improvement, and use the funds to go in a different direction. For now I'm happy to give Ray and the reviewers the benefit of the doubt, and look forward to getting to know the product.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TzeYang* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^where did you pull that one out of?_

 

Years of hi-fi experience and research? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's very simple: If you introduce a component that changes the frequency response of the signal, you are introducing distortion. A good recent example has been the HD-800s, with a number of owners, myself included, feeling they need a touch more bass. Switching to a larger gauge aftermarket cable results in just this. Most notably, if you add an extension cable with the aftermarket wire instead of replacing the cable, you get _the same result_. What this means for the protector is that Ray is suggesting it doesn't have enough bass with full-sized headphones (though maybe he doesn't want to say that) so he is suggesting adding what amounts to a tone control between the amp and headphones.


----------



## Dreadhead

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Years of hi-fi experience and research? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's very simple: If you introduce a component that changes the frequency response of the signal, you are introducing distortion. A good recent example has been the HD-800s, with a number of owners, myself included, feeling they need a touch more bass. Switching to a larger gauge aftermarket cable results in just this. Most notably, if you add an extension cable with the aftermarket wire instead of replacing the cable, you get the same result. What this means for the protector is that Ray is suggesting it doesn't have enough bass with full-sized headphones (though maybe he doesn't want to say that) so he is suggesting adding what amounts to a tone control between the amp and headphones._

 

I pretty much disagree with everything you state right there.


----------



## TzeYang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Years of hi-fi experience and research? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's very simple: If you introduce a component that changes the frequency response of the signal, you are introducing distortion. A good recent example has been the HD-800s, with a number of owners, myself included, feeling they need a touch more bass. Switching to a larger gauge aftermarket cable results in just this. Most notably, if you add an extension cable with the aftermarket wire instead of replacing the cable, you get the same result. What this means for the protector is that Ray is suggesting it doesn't have enough bass with full-sized headphones (though maybe he doesn't want to say that) so he is suggesting adding what amounts to a tone control between the amp and headphones._

 

damn, will have to burn my degree in electronics in the future because they don't mean a single thing at all comparing to this.


----------



## belac

Here we go again!!!


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *naamanf* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nothing personal against him but he also thinks Darth(Barf) Beyers are the bee's knees. So I can pretty much disregard any impresses he has on audio gear._

 

Just for the record: I think Darth Beyers are fun, but they were only "the Bee's Knees" to me when I was new to headphone audio. I much prefer any of the other high-end cans I own over the Darth Beyers - T1, HE-5, D7000, DX1000 - all are much better sounding than the Darth Beyers. The only Darth Beyers I even still own are completely one-off versions using 600 ohm drivers that I came up with myself.

 Just wanted to set the record straight on that. You are of course still welcome to discount everything I say, since it is of course just my opinion. But I don't want other people to do so based on reading what you said about my preferences, which are incorrect.

 Now back to your regularly scheduled cable-debate slug-fest.


----------



## Jalo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Years of hi-fi experience and research? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 It's very simple: If you introduce a component that changes the frequency response of the signal, you are introducing distortion. ._

 

This is just one possibility but not the only one. You are assuming that the signal is being changed as oppose to the true signal is being allowed to come through because of better component. It is very much like good components will frequently reveal flaws in the recordings, this is not distortion, this is a manifestation of the original signal. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Years of hi-fi experience and research? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A good recent example has been the HD-800s, with a number of owners, myself included, feeling they need a touch more bass. Switching to a larger gauge aftermarket cable results in just this. Most notably, if you add an extension cable with the aftermarket wire instead of replacing the cable, you get the same result._

 

Let me make sure I understand your point here, are you saying and agreeing that a larger gauge cable does and will increase bass?


----------



## jelt2359

As a casual consumer, I (and I'm sure others too) are completely confused about cables, about adaptors, connectors... For everyone who's chimed in, it's great that you're sharing your knowledge! 

 But I'm still confused. Given all the caveats about cables , etc, etc, etc... (which is absolutely relevant- I've learnt a lot!). What does this all mean? ...Pico Slim or RSA Protector?


----------



## grawk

Go with the pico slim if you want a great sounding amp with the best volume control I've ever heard in a portable amp. The biggest drawback is that it's so small. 

 Go with the protector if you want to tell people you have a balanced amp but don't mind the kludgy connector, the ergonomics, and that you can't actually use a balanced source


----------



## moonboy403

8 Pages into the thread, but I don't think there's one person in this thread who has heard both amps. 

 I only had experience with the Protector driving my JH13s and I thought it sounded fantastic. I was most wowed by the Protector's soundstaging capability, its bigger images that it portraits through the JH13, and its deep, textured, and impactful bass (borderline too much for my taste).


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_8 Pages into the thread, but I don't think there's one person in this thread who has heard both amps. 
_

 

Not surprising, since neither has been released


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not surprising, since neither has been released 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Psh, who wants to let practicality get in the way of a good argument


----------



## Jalo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moonboy403* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_8 Pages into the thread, but I don't think there's one person in this thread who has heard both amps. 

 I only had experience with the Protector driving my JH13s and I thought it sounded fantastic. I was most wowed by the Protector's soundstaging capability, its bigger images that it portraits through the JH13, and its deep, textured, and impactful bass (borderline too much for my taste)._

 

Be careful now, this kind of talks can get you branded as a RSA fanboy very easily
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks so much for sharing your first hand expericence with the Protector.


----------



## moonboy403

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not surprising, since neither has been released 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Psh, who wants to let practicality get in the way of a good argument 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I know a number of people have already heard the Protector and likewise for the Pico Slim even though they aren't officially released yet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jalo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Be careful now, this kind of talks can get you branded as a RSA fanboy very easily
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks so much for sharing your first hand expericence with the Protector._

 

Even though I totally dislike the RSA HR2?


----------



## MomijiTMO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TzeYang* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_damn, will have to burn my degree in electronics in the future because they don't mean a single thing at all comparing to this.




_

 






 unfortunately, most audiophile things are complete rubbish and will have you throwing away your degree.


----------



## cegras

So, if I am allowed to make a bunch of premises - the headphone amp puts out AC, right? The frequency and peak to peak characteristics of the AC signal control what the headphone is putting out.

 Therefore, in an AC (time dependent) circuit with the headphone as a load, and the amp as an overly simplified source of AC ... the only significant thing that technically will modify (I'm not talking about decreasing the amplitude) the signal is stray (complex) capacitance. I'm not sure where conductor characteristics factor into this. If my super simple model is largely correct, I suggest altering your cable braid first!


----------



## S J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cegras* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, if I am allowed to make a bunch of premises - the headphone amp puts out AC, right? The frequency and peak to peak characteristics of the AC signal control what the headphone is putting out.

 Therefore, in an AC (time dependent) circuit with the headphone as a load, and the amp as an overly simplified source of AC ... the only significant thing that technically will modify (I'm not talking about decreasing the amplitude) the signal is stray (complex) capacitance. I'm not sure where conductor characteristics factor into this. If my super simple model is largely correct, I suggest altering your cable braid first!_

 

Yes.


----------



## djbnh

I'm in the queue for a Protector. I have three pairs of phones I'd like to use with the amp.

 One thing I had not initially taken into account was the cost of some professional person or party reterminating three pairs of headphones, plus the cost to reverse retermination should I want to sell any / all of the phones. 

 The total price of ownership of a Protector increases by a not inconsiderable factor when these costs are taken into account. One quote I've received from a well-thought of Head-Fi vendor is $75 for reterminating an existing cable, plus shipping costs for the vendor and myself (in this case, a 1/4" Neutrix plug is removed and the Protector-required plug added for the $75 fee). If shipping is $5 each way, that makes it $85 for retermination. So, 3 X $85 = $255, for three sets of cans. Let's say it costs the same amount to reverse the retermination of the 3 sets of phones. That's a possible $510 investment in retermination and reverse termination.

 The Protector early buy cost is $425, shipping unknown at this time. If I use the $255 amount for three sets of cans to be reterminated, that brings the cost to a minimum of $680. If I change my mind, then add the 2nd $255 and I'm up to $935.

 Just something to consider. As an aside, it seems that two pairs of my headphones may have to undergo rewiring to be able to be run balanced, much less simply be reterminated. Gotta love this hobby!


----------



## S J

Well, couldn't you have an adapter made (Protector plug to 2x 3-pin XLR or a 4-pin XLR) and have your cans re-terminated appropriately? Then at least you could sell them as regular balanced cans and not have to re-re-terminate if it comes to that. Seems like a better idea regardless, as you can then use the cans with other balanced amps too. Unless of course the bulk of an adapter is a non-starter for you... then yeah, you'd be screwed


----------



## grokit

I couldn't decide, so I was going to get them both, then decided that I didn't really need either of them so I finally backed out of both and purchased a Headstage Arrow 12HE instead. It's thinner than the Slim, with 12v auto-power management, and _available_ impedance, gain, crossfeed, and bass boost adjustments. No lifetime warranty, but replacement rechargeable batteries are only $8. 

 It's not as small overall as the Slim, and it certainly doesn't offer a balanced output like the Protector, but it reportedly sounds great and will certainly meet my needs. I decided that that the most important thing after all, was to meet my "current" needs rather than drive myself crazy with the latest-and-greatest "cutting edge" amps that would just drive future purchases making me want $1,000+ custom IEMs and at least a few hundred $ more in balanced cable adapters and headphone re-wiring. 

 Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 I still want to go balanced, but I want a lot of things and will go desktop balanced first.

 Both of these new amps sound great, really; but I do feel like I just gained a little control over my "impulses", and therefore my sanity, from this entire experience


----------



## naamanf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just for the record: I think Darth Beyers are fun, but they were only "the Bee's Knees" to me when I was new to headphone audio. I much prefer any of the other high-end cans I own over the Darth Beyers - T1, HE-5, D7000, DX1000 - all are much better sounding than the Darth Beyers. The only Darth Beyers I even still own are completely one-off versions using 600 ohm drivers that I came up with myself._

 

That does sound much better. Maybe just a granule of salt now


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbnh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One thing I had not initially taken into account was the cost of some professional person or party reterminating three pairs of headphones, plus the cost to reverse retermination should I want to sell any / all of the phones._

 

The other thing is, considering that many amp makers have moved to digital volume controls, that surely means the Protector will too. So once it does, the value of what you bought will have dropped considerably. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jalo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let me make sure I understand your point here, are you saying and agreeing that a larger gauge cable does and will increase bass?_

 

Very (and probably too) generally, yes. It can be a side-effect.


----------



## jc9394

you probably can call me crazy, I have all 3 incoming soon. I figure I can sell them back with little or no lost if I don't like any of them. Chances are I will mostly keep the Pico Slim since I love how the Pico amp/dac sounds. I will report back my impression once I got them all in. The bad thing is I have to sell my current Pico yo fund this. Headphone will be JH13 with SE and balanced TWag from Whiplash.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grokit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I couldn't decide, so I was going to get them both, then decided that I didn't really need either of them so I finally backed out of both and purchased a Headstage Arrow 12HE instead. It's thinner than the Slim, with 12v auto-power management, and available impedance, gain, crossfeed, and bass boost adjustments. No lifetime warranty, but replacement rechargeable batteries are only $8. 

 It's not as small overall as the Slim, and it certainly doesn't offer a balanced output like the Protector, but it reportedly sounds great and will certainly meet my needs. I decided that that the most important thing after all, was to meet my "current" needs rather than drive myself crazy with the latest-and-greatest "cutting edge" amps that would just drive future purchases making me want $1,000+ custom IEMs and at least a few hundred $ more in balanced cable adapters and headphone re-wiring. 

 Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 I still want to go balanced, but I want a lot of things and will go desktop balanced first.

 These new amps sound great, really; but I do feel like I just gained a little control over my "impulses", and therefore my sanity, from this entire experience 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jc9394* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bad thing is I have to sell my current Pico yo fund this._

 

That's not a bad thing at all. The Protector seriously outperforms the Pico. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the Pico Slim sounds a lot better than the Pico.
 Also, the Protector is very lightweight, it felt lighter than the original Pico/DAC.


----------



## jc9394

I really hope so, this is my flavor dead quiet amp/dac with iem. The Protector is not a cheap investment. TWag cable and Protector combine is more expensive than WA6 or GLite.


----------



## S J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jc9394* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.... I have all 3 incoming soon ...._

 

That's the spirit!


----------



## jc9394

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *S J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's the spirit! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Shopping and drinking don't mix well at all...


----------



## jelt2359

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jc9394* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you probably can call me crazy, I have all 3 incoming soon. I figure I can sell them back with little or no lost if I don't like any of them. Chances are I will mostly keep the Pico Slim since I love how the Pico amp/dac sounds. I will report back my impression once I got them all in. The bad thing is I have to sell my current Pico yo fund this. Headphone will be JH13 with SE and balanced TWag from Whiplash._

 

While you're at it, why not the TTVJ Slim as well? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I look forward to your "larry-style" arrow vs protector vs pico slim review!!


----------



## jc9394

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jelt2359* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While you're at it, why not the TTVJ Slim as well? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I look forward to your "larry-style" arrow vs protector vs pico slim reviews 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Running out of fund, I'm not made of gold. I have to sell my Pico, Mustang, and Predator to fund this.


----------



## jelt2359

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jc9394* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Running out of fund, I'm not made of gold. I have to sell my Pico, Mustang, and Predator to fund this._

 

Good thing you're not made of gold.. If you WERE made of gold, you would have to sell your right arm and left leg to fund this!


----------



## GuyDebord

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *djbnh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm in the queue for a Protector. I have three pairs of phones I'd like to use with the amp.

 One thing I had not initially taken into account was the cost of some professional person or party reterminating three pairs of headphones, plus the cost to reverse retermination should I want to sell any / all of the phones. 

 The total price of ownership of a Protector increases by a not inconsiderable factor when these costs are taken into account. One quote I've received from a well-thought of Head-Fi vendor is $75 for reterminating an existing cable, plus shipping costs for the vendor and myself (in this case, a 1/4" Neutrix plug is removed and the Protector-required plug added for the $75 fee). If shipping is $5 each way, that makes it $85 for retermination. So, 3 X $85 = $255, for three sets of cans. Let's say it costs the same amount to reverse the retermination of the 3 sets of phones. That's a possible $510 investment in retermination and reverse termination.

 The Protector early buy cost is $425, shipping unknown at this time. If I use the $255 amount for three sets of cans to be reterminated, that brings the cost to a minimum of $680. If I change my mind, then add the 2nd $255 and I'm up to $935.

 Just something to consider. As an aside, it seems that two pairs of my headphones may have to undergo rewiring to be able to be run balanced, much less simply be reterminated. Gotta love this hobby!_

 

I think soundwise, for $935 you are better off doing the following:

 1. Spend the money in a pair of Beyer T1's
 2. Once you get them, sell your 3 cans and you will earn around $500
 3. Use the $500 to buy an amp

 You would have much, much better sound quality


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jelt2359* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While you're at it, why not the TTVJ Slim as well? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I look forward to your "larry-style" arrow vs protector vs pico slim review!!_

 

Throw in the iBasso T3D for the value proposition too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Im hoping to get both the Protector and the slim, im in the preorders for both, and barring a monetary emergency will be getting both to listen with my JH-13's. The outlay wasnt quite as bad for me since i already ahd the TWag cable, so i just needed the retermination and the adaptor. Though i dont know how much everyone will listen to my reviews since they will be my first headphone amps ever


----------



## jelt2359

I originally voted for both, but I've decided to stick with the Protector only. I've always been keen to try out an RSA amp, and by all accounts so far the Protector is awesome. Plus, regardless of whatever research has gone into the Pico Slim, I think going Balanced is more important to me. A desktop amp is absolutely out of the question- I'm leaving the country and don't want to be shipping bulky electronics. I know there are other Balanced amps coming out, but I want to try a Balanced RSA product 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Other random musings:
 1) Headphoneaddict, whose opinion I respect, also mentioned in a post that he cannot always tell the difference between balanced and single-ended input.

 2) Ray may have made a mistake saying you need an 18awg cable... but well, he's stressed, and I don't think one post reflects on your ability to make a quality amp. I believe his expertise in that regard is well proven.

 3) Lastly, so many people are on the slim preorder, that I believe I'll easily find a guy who's having buyer remorse and buy it second hand. 

 4) Considering I already have my d10, my TTVJ, my iQube... Really, how many portables do I need? LOL


----------



## djbnh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GuyDebord* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think soundwise, for $935 you are better off doing the following:

 1. Spend the money in a pair of Beyer T1's
 2. Once you get them, sell your 3 cans and you will earn around $500
 3. Use the $500 to buy an amp

 You would have much, much better sound quality_

 

I thank you and others for their respective input. Being without power here in NH for a few days has given me a break from the topic. I note that regarding my Senn 650 cans, I have an Stefan AudioArt Equinox cable, which I'd reterminate.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *S J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, couldn't you have an adapter made (Protector plug to 2x 3-pin XLR or a 4-pin XLR) and have your cans re-terminated appropriately? Then at least you could sell them as regular balanced cans and not have to re-re-terminate if it comes to that. Seems like a better idea regardless, as you can then use the cans with other balanced amps too. Unless of course the bulk of an adapter is a non-starter for you... then yeah, you'd be screwed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Great points, please PM offline. TY.


----------



## atothex

Hmmm the poll isn't as close as I thought it'd be.


----------



## EddieE

atothex,
 The Slim has been on pre-order for months, the protector for a week or two. Hardly surprising more people have made the decision to go for a slim so far.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Is Pico Slim capable of driving Sennheiser HD650 ?


----------



## grawk

That wouldn't be an ideal pairing, but it's certainly as "capable" as the majority of other portables on the market.


----------



## WalkGood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is Pico Slim capable of driving Sennheiser HD650 ?_

 

Why would you want to pair it with high impedance (300 ohm) full size headphones o_O As the Pico Slim was designed for iem's.


----------



## grawk

The slim was designed for portable use, with sensitive headphones, not just IEMs. But yes, HD650s aren't going to be ideal on any portable amp that I know of. They're even challenging for most home amps.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The slim was designed for portable use, with sensitive headphones, not just IEMs. But yes, HD650s aren't going to be ideal on any portable amp that I know of. They're even challenging for most home amps._

 

jamato says the protectors drives the 650's better than his WA6


----------



## grawk

I'd take that with a fairly large grain of salt.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd take that with a fairly large grain of salt._

 

i would have till skylab stated the protector powered his balanced he-5's pretty well


----------



## grawk

...


----------



## jelt2359

Don't take too much salt now, too much Sodium is not good for health 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Besides, the general point is still valid- the Protector is a better solution than the Pico Slim, for harder-to-drive cans.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jelt2359* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't take too much salt now, too much Sodium is not good for health 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Besides, the general point is still valid- the Protector is a better solution than the Pico Slim, for harder-to-drive cans._

 

I don't think that's necessarily true.


----------



## The Monkey

Because we haven't heard it.


----------



## grawk

It's like saying a mini is better than a miata for formula 1 racing based solely on design. 1) it doesn't necessarily follow, and 2) it doesn't matter, since neither would be particularly effective.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jelt2359* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Besides, the general point is still valid- the Protector is a better solution than the Pico Slim, for harder-to-drive cans._

 

I'd agree with that from purely a voltage swing perspective, I haven't heard the Protector so can't comment on how it actually sounds. But I'd add the caveat that the Protector is also a decidedly worse solution for sensitive headphones and IEMs. It introduces an extra active stage (phase splitting opamp) in addition to using a volume control that even Ray previously admitted was problematic with sensitive headphones, hence the development of the Shadow.


----------



## grawk

Sorry jelt, I accidentally editted your post instead of replying, so I deleted it. I couldn't revert.


----------



## EddieE

Isn't it better form to give the various people who have heard it the benefit of the doubt while keeping caution at the back of your mind till you hear it yourself? 

 Several different posters have said it will power demanding cans. Yes they could all be lying/shilling, they also could not.

 A lot of people seem more primed to believe everyone is lying to them until it is proved they aren't, which is pretty harsh tbh when you don't know that for a fact.

 Besides, it's not much of a leap, since the protector uses two batteries simulteanously and the pico slim just one, to beleive that the claims of it handling high impendence cans are not out of the question.


----------



## grawk

There are other portable amps with a voltage swing comparable to the protector and even greater that are also not capable of doing a sufficient job driving the HD650. I think it's safe to say that the HD650 is a design not particularly suitable to being driven portably, and that as such, doesn't make a useful benchmark for portable amplifiers.


----------



## WalkGood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ … But I'd add the caveat that the Protector is also a decidedly worse solution for sensitive headphones and IEMs. It introduces an extra active stage (phase splitting opamp) in addition to using a volume control that even Ray previously admitted was problematic with sensitive headphones, hence the development of the Shadow._

 

Excellent point, one of my main reasons for ordering the Slim was the digital potentiometer and it’s many steps of attenuation.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EddieE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't it better form to give the various people who have heard it the benefit of the doubt while keeping caution at the back of your mind till you hear it yourself? 

 Several different posters have said it will power demanding cans. Yes they could all be lying/shilling, they also could not.

 A lot of people seem more primed to believe everyone is lying to them until it is proved they aren't, which is pretty harsh tbh when you don't know that for a fact.

 Besides, it's not much of a leap, since the protector uses two batteries simulteanously and the pico slim just one, to beleive that the claims of it handling high impendence cans are not out of the question._

 

I prefer to maintain a healthy skepticism.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoupRKnowva* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i would have till skylab stated the protector powered his balanced he-5's pretty well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Ahhhh...but the HE-5 are very low impedance, unlike the HD650. They would be more likely to be driven well, and the Protector has much more voltage than a typical portable. The HE-5 and Protector pairing should work well on paper, and indeed it does. I can't comment on how the Protector would do with the HD650.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *EddieE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't it better form to give the various people who have heard it the benefit of the doubt while keeping caution at the back of your mind till you hear it yourself? 

 Several different posters have said it will power demanding cans. Yes they could all be lying/shilling, they also could not._

 

I haven't heard the Protector yet so I will reserve judgment. However, I have learned not to rely upon anyones ears but my own. In particular, I avoid relying on those that post and review pretty regularly around here as I question their motivation for much of what they write. That's just my opinion.


----------



## SoupRKnowva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahhhh...but the HE-5 are very low impedance, unlike the HD650. They would be more likely to be driven well, and the Protector has much more voltage than a typical portable. The HE-5 and Protector pairing should work well on paper, and indeed it does._

 

I was just using your example as another phone that is demanding to drive, that can be powered well by the protector. Since it can provide the large current necessary for the he-5's and it has the voltage swing necessary for the 650's i put 2 and 2 together to deduce that it should be able to provide the current and voltage needed for the 650's, and the whole thing was just to help corroborate jamato's claim anyways. But i guess we'll need to wait and see how it pans out once it is released to the general public. Ill only be using it with jh-13's, at least for now, so i think ill be ok


----------



## EddieE

The Monkey,
 I agree with healthy scepticism. Not sure how healthy assuming everything is a lie is.

 Healthy scepticism, for me, would be the keeping at the back of ones mind that nothing is proven until you hear it for yourself, while not actively assuming a claim is false without proof for that either.

 That would be unhealthy scepticism IMHO. Agnosticism is the best way, which assumes nothing without proof - doesn't assume the worst or the best.

 As far as the volume pot issue goes, I don't own any sensitive IEMs (Phonaks seem pretty well behaved with any amp or any dap) so that doesn't matter so much to me. Digital pots on portable amps are a pretty new idea and the audio community managed OK without them before. 

 TBH I don't need a portable amp at all. I was using my D10 as one for a month or so but in the end decided the benefit with any of my portable phones was not great enough to justify the bulk and weight it added to my pocket.

 I'm buying this amp because of the innovative SE to balanced mode, and indeed very much on the report (true or false) that it will power demanding cans. I have no intention at all of using it portably.

 If that turns out to be untrue, well I'm sure there will be people who want it's other fucntionality and I'll be able to sell it at a small loss. 

 But if it turns out to be true, well a lot of people have been essentially calling a lot of other people liars. I hope they'll have the dignity to publicly apologise to them...


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't heard the Protector yet so I will reserve judgment. However, I have learned not to rely upon anyones ears but my own. In particular, I avoid relying on those that post and review pretty regularly around here as I question their motivation for much of what they write. That's just my opinion._

 

And there you have it, folks, all Reviewers are shills. A head-fi moderator says so, so it must be the case. Best to avoid reading anything in any review. Or from anyone who posts regularly. Stick to believing only posts by people who don't post often, and where there is no context for their comments. Surely that's the ticket.


----------



## grawk

Or to accept that everyone has an agenda, and to put your primary trust in your own ears.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or to accept that everyone has an agenda, and to put your primary trust in your own ears._

 

There is absolutely no question at all that everyone should ONLY trust their own ears.


----------



## Ray Samuels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd agree with that from purely a voltage swing perspective, I haven't heard the Protector so can't comment on how it actually sounds. But I'd add the caveat that the Protector is also a decidedly worse solution for sensitive headphones and IEMs. It introduces an extra active stage (phase splitting opamp) in addition to using a volume control that even Ray previously admitted was problematic with sensitive headphones, hence the development of the Shadow._

 

Here we go again, I have never said that this volume control that I use in the Protector has any issues; on the contrary I have said it is the best volume control ever made by Panasonic, that I use in all my SR-71s. I said I have adapted it to work in low profile chassis.
 Where did you come with this WROG and disturbing comment, this time?
 Again, I would say read the Protector thread so you get in lightened by what I have said so next time when you quote me "MAY BE" you will be correct.
 Ray Samuels


----------



## Jalo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ In particular, I avoid relying on those that post and review pretty regularly around here as I question their motivation for much of what they write. That's just my opinion._

 

Sir, I just want to clarify that you are not talking about yourself, 10,000+ posts seems pretty regular to me. I don't think there are more than a hand full that have that many posts.


----------



## K3cT

Very late to the party but can someone in this thread explain the merit of having a "balanced" amp without having a balanced source in the first place?


----------



## dazzer1975

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jalo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sir, I just want to clarify that you are not talking about yourself, 10,000+ posts seems pretty regular to me. I don't think there are more than a hand full that have that many posts._

 

of course he aint talking about himself, one only has to spend half an hour at most amongst the portable gear fora to understand who is being referred to and the behaviours meant.

 just open your eyes.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here we go again, I have never said that this volume control that I use in the Protector has any issues; on the contrary I have said it is the best volume control ever made by Panasonic, that I use in all my SR-71s. I said I have adapted it to work in low profile chassis.
 Where did you come with this WROG and disturbing comment, this time?
 Again, I would say read the Protector thread so you get in lightened by what I have said so next time when you quote me "MAY BE" you will be correct.
 Ray Samuels_

 

Allow me to quote you Ray, from your own website:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *www.raysamuelsaudio.com* 
_Currently one disadvantage of the portable amps, especially when used with the very sensitive IEMs,is the quality & the balance of their volume controls. Without strict testing and selection analog volume controls are a big pain, they don’t track properly, and they don’t give the proper sound stage & the correct location of musicians & instruments. The most popular disappointment is when one channel tends to start before the other. Dust & contamination tends to cause cuts & drops of audio signal in one channel or the other._

 

That sure sounds to me like you're describing a problem. Furthermore...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *www.raysamuelsaudio.com* 
_Not only is the money wasted but so is the time that it takes me to sort out the 600 good & acceptable pots out of the 1200 units. This make me sick knowing that there is no other alternative to get miniature pots from another company that takes pride in designing better ones._

 

This statement, to me at least and maybe I'm wrong, says that you thought the old way of doing things (i.e. sorting pots by hand) was not the best way to go about doing things anymore. I happen to agree with you there.

 You also have several posts in the Shadow thread extolling the virtues of the digital volume. I trust that I don't need to quote those as well?

 So enlighten me Ray, instead of attacking me, and tell me why for IEMs (which is what I was specifically talking about) an analog pot is preferable to a digital one when you yourself have said exactly the opposite? Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying?


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And there you have it, folks, all Reviewers are shills. A head-fi moderator says so, so it must be the case. Best to avoid reading anything in any review. Or from anyone who posts regularly. Stick to believing only posts by people who don't post often, and where there is no context for their comments. Surely that's the ticket._

 

Wow, I made sure my comments were my opinion only and I didn't call anyone a shill. I do question the motivation of those that constantly review gear, in particular on this site and on others. Sorry, if it you take a offense but I don't believe there is enough transparency for me to accept many reviews on their face. i believe I've been around long enough to be in a position for hold such an opinion. You and others can disagree, no problem. However, don't put words in my mouth. This belief of mine is not something that I have just decided. I've held this belief for a long time. I felt this way about a certain promoter of SP amps.

 I'm a member first and moderator second. My opinions have zero to do with me being a moderator. And yes, people would be just as well off listening to some newby then someone who is a shill (using your word). At least the newby is trying to get it right.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very late to the party but can someone in this thread explain the merit of having a "balanced" amp without having a balanced source in the first place?_

 

You can sell a bunch of cables, and you get to win the race to "first balanced mainstream portable"


----------



## Ray Samuels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't heard the Protector yet so I will reserve judgment. However, I have learned not to rely upon anyones ears but my own. In particular, I avoid relying on those that post and review pretty regularly around here as I question their motivation for much of what they write. That's just my opinion._

 

So you question Skylab's motivation after he reviewed about three of my amps. Yet have never ever questioned his motivation when he has reviewed 35-40 other amps from other manufacturers. 
 Ray Samuels


----------



## jelt2359

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very late to the party but can someone in this thread explain the merit of having a "balanced" amp without having a balanced source in the first place?_

 

From Larry ('headphoneaddict') : 

 "I have heard balanced amps that do an excellent job splitting a single ended input into a balanced signal, including the RSA A-10 - where I could not distinguish when I was listing to the Meridian CDP via single ended signal and when I was listening to the balanced signal. The soundstage and separation was equally as good with either signal. I was able to hear the difference between the tubes in the SE circuit vs the balanced circuit, as they were different brands and sounded slightly different in tone (SE tube was an Amperex that was slightly more rolled off than the ones in the balanced circuit).

 My SP Square Wave XL also does a great job converting SE sources to balanced, and there are others that use phase splitters or input transformers to accept an SE source and convert it to balanced. So, a balanced source is not mandatory."

 source: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f38/fi...03/index4.html

 Another view, from qusp:

 "slim, i'm waiting for a more true balanced solution that actually accepts balanced input. I find it a little odd that once portable dacs with a balanced signal path are released shortly, the protector will not be able tpo be used with them except through a single ended adapter"

 source: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/p...45/index2.html


----------



## h.rav

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you question Skylab's motivation after he reviewed about three of my amps. Yet have never ever questioned his motivation when he has reviewed 35-40 other amps from other manufacturers. 
 Ray Samuels_

 

^ Tyrion doesn't mention a name.


----------



## jude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And there you have it, folks, all Reviewers are shills. A head-fi moderator says so, so it must be the case. Best to avoid reading anything in any review. Or from anyone who posts regularly. Stick to believing only posts by people who don't post often, and where there is no context for their comments. Surely that's the ticket._

 

tyrion is right in that I have encouraged all the moderators to be members first, moderators second. I'm an administrator here, and I also like to think of myself as member first, moderator/admin second.

 That all said, I enjoy your reviews, and realize how much effort you put into them. I know many here appreciate your reviews, and I'm one of them. No, I don't find myself always agreeing with your impressions of the gear you've reviewed that I've heard--sometimes I do, sometimes I don't--but that's the nature of subjective reviews. It doesn't change the fact that I enjoy reading your reviews, and I understand how much goes into them.

 So, for what it's worth, thank you, Skylab.


----------



## Ray Samuels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Allow me to quote you Ray, from your own website:



 That sure sounds to me like you're describing a problem. Furthermore...



 This statement, to me at least and maybe I'm wrong, says that you thought the old way of doing things (i.e. sorting pots by hand) was not the best way to go about doing things anymore. I happen to agree with you there.

 You also have several posts in the Shadow thread extolling the virtues of the digital volume. I trust that I don't need to quote those as well?

 So enlighten me Ray, instead of attacking me, and tell me why for IEMs (which is what I was specifically talking about) an analog pot is preferable to a digital one when you yourself have said exactly the opposite? Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying?_

 

The volume control I have been talking about in that post is the ALPS pot, It is designed for portable use, but it get noisy after a short period of time.
 That pot is not the one I use in the Protector. I have declared in the Protector thread that the pot I use is the best out there, which I managed to make a modification to the it so it works well in the Protector.
 Ray Samuels


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you question Skylab's motivation after he reviewed about three of my amps. Yet have never ever questioned his motivation when he has reviewed 35-40 other amps from other manufacturers. 
 Ray Samuels_

 

Hey Ray, I don't recall questioning any one person specifically. However, if I do, it's my right. Quite frankly, I'm not sure why you are even responding in this thread as a MOT.

 I'm beginning to wonder whether the sudden defense in this thread suggests some truth to that which you are defending against. There is a quote from Hamlet, "...the lady doth protest too much." That Shakespeare guy may have been on to something.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tyrion is right in that I have encouraged all the moderators to be members first, moderators second. I'm an administrator here, and I also like to think of myself as member first, moderator/admin second.

 That all said, I enjoy your reviews, and realize how much effort you put into them. I know many here appreciate your reviews, and I'm one of them. No, I don't find myself always agreeing with your impressions of the gear you've reviewed that I've heard--sometimes I do, sometimes I don't--but that's the nature of subjective reviews. It doesn't change the fact that I enjoy reading your reviews, and I understand how much goes into them.

 So, for what it's worth, thank you, Skylab._

 

Thanks, Jude, I appreciate that. It's very disheartening to me that there seems to be such an incredibly strong undercurrent here at head-fi that everyone has to have "an agenda" in every post they make. I'm a lot older than many members here, and I come at this from an odd perspective, I guess - that this is a HOBBY, and that it is supposed to be FUN. My agenda is clear - I review gear because I have, mostly, enjoyed it. And I will continue to do so as long as this site allows, since I do it purely for the fun of the hobby. Contrary to what some conspiracy theorists would like people to believe, reviewing equipment on head-fi has actually COST me hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars, not to mention large amounts of time for which I receive nothing except my own personal satisfaction of doing some critical listening, thinking, and writing.

 So there you go, tyrion - I for one am giving you transparency - reviewing stuff is a time-consuming money-pit that I do because it's a nice outlet for me outside of work. I will take your post not as a mod, but you can't make a post like that which are clearly inflammatory and not expect reaction - there are only a very few people on this site that review regularly, and of them, I'm the only one reading this thread to defend us.


----------



## midoo1990

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, I made sure my comments were my opinion only and I didn't call anyone a shill. I do question the motivation of those that constantly review gear, in particular on this site and on others. Sorry, if it you take a offense but I don't believe there is enough transparency for me to accept many reviews on their face. i believe I've been around long enough to be in a position for hold such an opinion. You and others can disagree, no problem. However, don't put words in my mouth. This belief of mine is not something that I have just decided. I've held this belief for a long time. I felt this way about a certain promoter of SP amps.

 I'm a member first and moderator second. My opinions have zero to do with me being a moderator. And yes, people would be just as well off listening to some newby then someone who is a shill (using your word). At least the newby is trying to get it right._

 

Motivation?maybe because this is a hobby and we like to help each other selecting the right gear.maybe because we have alot of free/leisure time and it is alot of fun to review gears and write comparisons.maybe because we feel happy when someone bought a gear that We recommended and he is on the top of the world with the purchase.maybe because we don't have friends to share the same enthusiasm in audio gears and this is the only place that we can about this stuff........do I need to continue?
 I know I am relatively new here but it is very helpful and alot of fun when I read comparisons and reviews like the one skylab's do although I don't comment to the review thread but it is very enjoyable to read impressions and reviews on this site and it kills the time.


----------



## jelt2359

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The volume control I have been talking about in that post is the ALPS pot, It is designed for portable use, but it get noisy after a short period of time.
 That pot is not the one I use in the Protector. I have declared in the Protector thread that the pot I use is the best out there, which I managed to make a modification to the it so it works well in the Protector.
 Ray Samuels_

 

Thanks for the information! This is very useful to know. I was wondering the same as well.


----------



## WalkGood

FWIW I enjoy reading your reviews skylab and I do think that jude’s point “I don't find myself always agreeing with your impressions of the gear you've reviewed that I've heard--sometimes I do, sometimes I don't--but that's the nature of subjective reviews,” is very valid while reading anyone’s review.

 BTW I'm really enjoying this thread


----------



## shigzeo

I had a feeling it would turn 'fun' - it did and I am back to hear how fun it is.


----------



## dazzer1975

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ My agenda is clear - I review gear because I have, mostly, enjoyed it. And I will continue to do so as long as this site allows, since I do it purely for the fun of the hobby._

 

Not strictly true, you refused offers of reviewing amps because the manufacturer isnt interested in sending you one to review.

 While I have enjoyed thoroughly reading through your behemoth of a review thread, and of course there is nothing inherently off colour or jaundiced about accepting amps to review from the manufacturer, the statements I read from you totally disbarring the chance of reveiwing amps (even when offered to be sent them from members) because the manufacturer won't send you one does paint a slightly different picture than being in it purely for the fun of the hobby and left a sour taste in my mouth.


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 So there you go, tyrion - I for one am giving you transparency - reviewing stuff is a time-consuming money-pit that I do because it's a nice outlet for me outside of work. I will take your post not as a mod, but you can't make a post like that which are clearly inflammatory and not expect reaction - there are only a very few people on this site that review regularly, and of them, I'm the only one reading this thread to defend us._

 

Here is my post: 

 I haven't heard the Protector yet so I will reserve judgment. However, I have learned not to rely upon anyones ears but my own. In particular, I avoid relying on those that post and review pretty regularly around here as I question their motivation for much of what they write. That's just my opinion.

 It was my opinion. Those that choose to agree can and those that choose to disagree can as well. Motivation can mean a lot of things, not necessarily taking money or something else in return for writing something. You chose, not me, to bring the word shill into the discussion. I purposely did not use that word as it is a strong one. It was you that turned the discussion "infammatory" not me.


----------



## atothex

Why the hell are people still trying to drive HD650s with portables? Haven't y'all read Boomana's excellent beginner FAQ?

 Anyways, my personal impressions:
 - heard Pico Slim briefly with Qualias; I thought to myself "these stock Qualias have a big ass TRS plug"

 Hope that helped!


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dazzer1975* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not strictly true, you refused offers of reviewing amps because the manufacturer isnt interested in sending you one to review.

 While I have enjoyed thoroughly reading through your behemoth of a review thread, and of course there is nothing inherently off colour or jaundiced about accepting amps to review from the manufacturer, the statements I read from you totally disbarring the chance of reveiwing amps (even when offered to be sent them from members) because the manufacturer won't send you one does paint a slightly different picture than being in it purely for the fun of the hobby and left a sour taste in my mouth._

 

I don't like to receive amps from head-fi members for review, for two reasons:

 1. I can't predict how long a review will take me, and I don't like tying up someone else's personal property

 2. I have no problem writing a negative review where I am send a loaner by the amp's maker - but I once wrote a negative review of an amp that was loaned to me by a member, and that member was mad I didn't like the amp he'd bought, and gave me a super hard time for a long time. Manufacturers know they cannot get away with that behavior - members do not always. So I don't like to review loaners from members precisely BECAUSE it helps to keep the stress level down, and the fun up.


----------



## Ray Samuels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Allow me to quote you Ray, from your own website:

 So enlighten me Ray, instead of attacking me, and tell me why for IEMs (which is what I was specifically talking about) an analog pot is preferable to a digital one when you yourself have said exactly the opposite? Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying?_

 

The Digital volume controls that are designed for portable use are designed using single power supply. Only the very few that are designed with dual power supplies. Those are not recommended in the portable use as they need higher voltage & current which is not applicable in portable use. 
 As head-fiers, we demand the best possible sound from our portable amps. 
 One of the draw back of using the digital volume controls in portable amps is the single rail power supply that dictates the use of INPUT & OUTPUT capacitors in the signal path. That by it self is not acceptable by many of us including you. Remember the ONE who said "NO CAPS IN THE SIGNAL PATH?"

 I had a long talk on the phone with many engineers of the digital volume control companies, described to them my need, they answered that all these portable digital volume controls are designed for a single power supply for portable use only. 

 The Shadow has a digital volume control but I have worked around the digital volume control to make sure it will work with dual power supplies so I don't have to install input & output caps in the signal path.
 But I assure you, had I designed the Shadow with single power supply, and being the only manufacturer with digital volume control portable amp, with caps in the input & output stage of the signal path , you would have been the very FIRST to criticize my design.
 Ray Samuels


----------



## Jalo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... as I question their motivation for much of what they write. That's just my opinion._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or to accept that everyone has an agenda, and to put your primary trust in your own ears._

 

First of all, I agree that everyone must listen for himself to know for sure. But that doesn't automatically means that everyone that posts here including reviewers have some sort of hidden agenda or mysterious motivation. There are many problematic assumptions that are made in the above statements. First of all, we cannot assume facts not found in evidence unless we have a paranoid problem. Second, you assume that most headfiers cannot read reviews objectively or critically and therefore could be mislead by hidden agenda and motivation even if they are there. I think a reviewer obtain their creditbility not by merely posting a lot here. If I buy a product and if my expericence of the product doesn't match the reviewer's discription or experience, that reviewer will loose credibility on my book. 

 It seems like everyone agrees that you really should not comment on a product unless you have personal experience with that product. As far as I can tell, the Slim was heard by Walkgood, Boomana, and Grawk and the Protector was heard by Ipodpj, Skylab, Moonboy, and Jamato. Those are all positive feedback, but none have heard both. I am totally surprised by the majority of the posts in this thread that either attack or demean the Protector based on spec alone whereas there is hardly any critical comments on the Slim.


----------



## boomana

Lordy, people. We're talking about amps, portable ones at that. What bothers me, other than the unnecessary heated gab going on, is that there's no reason to more or less pit these two amps against each other. As far as I can see, people that want a portable balanced solution will get the Protector, and those that don't will get any number of other options available, including the Slim.

 Maybe I'm old school, but I don't look to portable amps to drive my desktop headphones. I have yet to hear one that can drive the known harder to drive headphones close to optimal, which is what I'm personally looking for when building a desktop rig. Others have different ideas and that's fine. If I'm buying a portable amp, it's for my portable rig, which happens to be JH13s right now. If I choose to bring an amp around with me (not commom practice), have no interest in having a balanced rig with me. Others may, and I have to say I am curious to hear the JH13s balanced, even if I never choose to go that route with mine. Hopefully, I'll be able to hear the Protector at CanJam. Until then, I'm not going to comment on it, or pay too much attention to what others are saying, though I do read out of curiosity.

 I did order the Slim because I have heard it, and it suited my tastes and needs, especially for it's control at very low volumes. Others may choose differently.

 It's not a competition, folks. Get whatever amp you want.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tyrion* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is my post: 

 I haven't heard the Protector yet so I will reserve judgment. However, I have learned not to rely upon anyones ears but my own. In particular, I avoid relying on those that post and review pretty regularly around here as I question their motivation for much of what they write. That's just my opinion.

 It was my opinion. Those that choose to agree can and those that choose to disagree can as well. Motivation can mean a lot of things, not necessarily taking money or something else in return for writing something. You chose, not me, to bring the word shill into the discussion. I purposely did not use that word as it is a strong one. It was you that turned the discussion "infammatory" not me._

 

Oh come on. Your post QUOTED someone who was discussing, in words, that very accusation - and you made your post clearly in reply to that, even quoting it. Your opinion was clearly couched as yours, and I was well within my right to comment on it. My sarcasm was no more inflammatory than your "opinion". 

 Anyway, that's it. I had planned to review the Predator, but it's very clear to me that such effort would be completely wasted, so I'm not going to bother. I've got better things to do than feed this fire. Later, fellas. My T1's are calling me.


----------



## dfkt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atothex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why the hell are people still trying to drive HD650s with portables? Haven't y'all read Boomana's excellent beginner FAQ?_

 

That's one of those quite exaggerated "audiophile" myths... the HD650 really aren't that hard to drive as almost everybody (- almost everybody on these forums here, not in reality) makes them out to be. Even the Sansa Clip+ on its own drives them quite acceptably, believe it or not. It's dangerous when people believe everything they read, instead of testing it on their own.


----------



## grawk

It can drive them, but they sound terrible when inadequately powered. So buying a portable amp for the purpose of using HD650s is a waste of money, both for the amp and the headphones.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can sell a bunch of cables, and you get to win the race to "first balanced mainstream portable"_

 

Fair enough. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jelt2359* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From Larry ('headphoneaddict') : 

 "I have heard balanced amps that do an excellent job splitting a single ended input into a balanced signal, including the RSA A-10 - where I could not distinguish when I was listing to the Meridian CDP via single ended signal and when I was listening to the balanced signal. The soundstage and separation was equally as good with either signal. I was able to hear the difference between the tubes in the SE circuit vs the balanced circuit, as they were different brands and sounded slightly different in tone (SE tube was an Amperex that was slightly more rolled off than the ones in the balanced circuit).

 My SP Square Wave XL also does a great job converting SE sources to balanced, and there are others that use phase splitters or input transformers to accept an SE source and convert it to balanced. So, a balanced source is not mandatory."

 source: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f38/fi...03/index4.html

 Another view, from qusp:

 "slim, i'm waiting for a more true balanced solution that actually accepts balanced input. I find it a little odd that once portable dacs with a balanced signal path are released shortly, the protector will not be able tpo be used with them except through a single ended adapter"

 source: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/p...45/index2.html_

 

Thanks. I wonder how the Protector's implementation of phase splitting is going to be. Nate got a point, I hope the introduction of another active stage is not going to have an adverse effect on SQ. 

 Still I can't help to think that this whole portable balanced business is a bit gimmick-y. Of course more power to Ray if the whole thing can work out in the end but I'll stick to a PMP and an IEM as my portable setup of choice for now. I'm not keen of carrying humongous 18AWG converter cables in my shirt's pocket.


----------



## boomana

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dfkt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's one of those quite exaggerated "audiophile" myths... the HD650 really aren't that hard to drive as almost everybody (- almost everybody on these forums here, not in reality) makes them out to be. Even the Sansa Clip+ on its own drives them quite acceptably, believe it or not. It's dangerous when people believe everything they read, instead of testing it on their own._

 

The problem is when people have different ideas of what being driven acceptably means. I'm a huge HD650 fan, but dislike it out of almost all single-ended amps I've heard with the exception of a handful, and believe it fares better out of the balanced amps I've heard, but am not going to get into that here. I have yet to hear a portable amp drive them to an sq I consider something I would choose, though you can certainly get them loud (never the point of good amplification).

 Again, that's a discussion for a different thread (and there are many), but as far as this one goes, I'd not choose either amp for the 650s, and as I've said before, if portables could drive audiophile headphones as well as decent desktop amps, no one would be making desktop amps anymore, and that's just not happening (thank goodness).


----------



## tyrion

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh come on. Your post QUOTED someone who was discussing, in words, that very accusation - and you made your post clearly in reply to that, even quoting it. Your opinion was clearly couched as yours, and I was well within my right to comment on it. My sarcasm was no more inflammatory than your "opinion". 

 Anyway, that's it. I had planned to review the Predator, but it's very clear to me that such effort would be completely wasted, so I'm not going to bother. I've got better things to do than feed this fire. Later, fellas. My T1's are calling me._

 

And I intentionally did not use those words. You can comment on my opinion all you want, just don't put words in my mouth. My opinion was not inflammatory, your use of the term "shill" and ascribing it to me was.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ray Samuels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But I assure you, had I designed the Shadow with single power supply, and being the only manufacturer with digital volume control portable amp, with caps in the input & output stage of the signal path , you would have been the very FIRST to criticize my design.
 Ray Samuels_

 

How about you stick to what you know Ray, and avoid assuring yourself or anyone else about what I might have done had you designed something, someway that you didn't?

 What you fail to grasp here is that I wasn't being critical of your products, you like to always view my posts in that light. Why, I don't know since in the past I've gone out of my way to help you at various meets when I've been able to. If I was out to get you do you think I'd have given you parts, not once, but twice to repair your amplifiers so that others could continue to enjoy them? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I suggested that when someone compared one of your products to another that yes, in fact, in some ways it was the better choice. But in other ways I think it was not as good a choice for a specific type of headphone. That's my opinion and I don't think you have to respond with the type of force you've shown the last couple of times I've expressed my opinion.

 And I'm pretty sure that some of your amps have coupling caps, as have many amps that I've built, I don't see these caps as inherently evil or good. They are just the natural consequence of some designs and as I'm sure you've found they can sound plenty good. Surely you're not going to tell me that the Raptor is a design failure because of its coupling caps, are you?


----------



## midoo1990

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It can drive them, but they sound terrible when inadequately powered. So buying a portable amp for the purpose of using HD650s is a waste of money, both for the amp and the headphones._

 

I use my hd650 with the headroom micro amp and it doesn't sound terrible to me at all.in fact it is very good and pleasurable experiance.I ordered the woo6 which is supposed to be one of the best to see if there is a difference between it and my $300 micro amp,but I am quite satisfied with the hd650 and micro.


----------



## dazzer1975

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't like to receive amps from head-fi members for review, for two reasons:

 1. I can't predict how long a review will take me, and I don't like tying up someone else's personal property

 2. I have no problem writing a negative review where I am send a loaner by the amp's maker - but I once wrote a negative review of an amp that was loaned to me by a member, and that member was mad I didn't like the amp he'd bought, and gave me a super hard time for a long time. Manufacturers know they cannot get away with that behavior - members do not always. So I don't like to review loaners from members precisely BECAUSE it helps to keep the stress level down, and the fun up._

 

Ok they sound reasonable and while I do believe they can be worked round, seeing as you're the one doing the reviews thats entirely your perogative to take on what you feel most comfortable with.

 Like I said, I don't see an issue with reviewers when they are upfront and honest about what comes from where, plus of course, their reviews also lend credibility if they cover the whole spectrum of opinion rather than everything reviewed being the best thing since sliced bread like some do on here.

 It just smacked of something unsavoury but as you've explained yourself and taken in context with your reviews I can accept that.


----------



## K_19

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *midoo1990* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use my hd650 with the headroom micro amp and it doesn't sound terrible to me at all.in fact it is very good and pleasurable experiance.I ordered the woo6 which is supposed to be one of the best to see if there is a difference between it and my $300 micro amp,but I am quite satisfied with the hd650 and micro._

 

I don't think the Headroom Micro would be classified as a portable. It's definitely small, but it seems more transportable than outright portable. I don't think Headroom markets it as a portable either, to my knowledge.


----------



## midoo1990

Yes I know it's not portable,but according to alot it is adequate for hd650 that's why I mentioned it.


----------



## K_19

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *midoo1990* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes I know it's not portable,but according to alot it is adequate for hd650 that's why I mentioned it._

 

I see, was a bit confused there as how it pertains to the topic in hand... Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## dfkt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It can drive them, but they sound terrible when inadequately powered._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomana* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is when people have different ideas of what being driven acceptably means. I'm a huge HD650 fan, but dislike it out of almost all single-ended amps I've heard with the exception of a handful, and believe it fares better out of the balanced amps I've heard, but am not going to get into that here._

 

Ah ok, for me "adequately" means it sounds pretty much the same if driven either by my Woo 6 fed by an AudioFire4, or my Sansa Clip+. Of course the Woo can reach higher SPL, but the Clip+ makes them sound pretty much the same (sans the harmonic distortions, of course). The FiiO E7 drives them quite well too, while the Headsix doesn't come as close. It's all rather interesting with the HD650.


----------



## swt61

As usual boomana comes in as the voice of reason, and clearly states it as it is.

 Tyrion and I have not always agreed on things in the past, but to insinuate that he's trying to deliberately shine a bad light on Rays products is absurd. Even when we don't agree I respect Mike for his principles and passion for this hobby. To call him out as having some other agenda frankly leaves a very foul taste in my mouth. This gentleman bends over backwards to help his fellow hobbyists.

 And to impugn Nate's (N_Maher) character is an even more offensive act! 

 SHAME ON YOU RAY! 

 If you can't accept that people have the right to their own opinions, you have no business masquerading as a hobbyist. Just be the business man you are, and don't pretend to be anything other than that, and your actions will at least be a bit more acceptable.


----------



## recstar24

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very late to the party but can someone in this thread explain the merit of having a "balanced" amp without having a balanced source in the first place?_

 

I know grawk already answered this, but I felt like I would chime in. Personally I have no idea what the merit is to have a balanced amp without having a balanced source, especially wrt portable IEM use. For me, the benefit in balanced is being able to do it from the source on, which offers numerous benefits, such as:

 1) a dual differential design from the DAC to the output stage, which can offer superior digital performance
 2) excellent grounding schemes
 3) extremely low noise due to CMRR
 4) ability to use IC's as long as you need without interference
 5) Can take advantage of 2x voltage swing if needed

 The portable balanced thing doesn't utilize any of the above since none of the portable sources out can output true balanced from a dual differential source. N_maher makes a valid point in that adding a phase splitting opamp to get the pseudo + - for each channel can be detrimental to the sound by adding another stage in the signal path that could be argued as redundant. You don't get any CMRR benefit, and 2x the voltage for IEM's is ridiculous, since IEM's are around 120db/mw or so and we are literally talking about such a miniscule amount of power needed for quality sound. 

 However, I have not listened to the thing so who knows, listen for yourself and maybe you will actually hear the 3d soundstage that wraps around your head. I will add that I personally like the balanced approach when it comes to my home speaker headphone rig, and am currently having a custom amp with balanced input lundahl transformers to take in the differential signal from my meridian 508.24, and output the signal through a phase splitting custom autoformer into the balanced inputs of my FirstWatt F1 to drive my horns.


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## jude

Geez, man, to me this thread isn't about shame on any one person, but a bunch. Ganging-up behavior from people who rarely post here anymore, but always seem to pop up when there's discussion involving certain people or companies. Same topics, same characters, same tactics.

 Those I'm referring to know who you are.

 I'm closing this thread, as it is hardly representative of the best of _this_ community.


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## Ramblinman

If I had only ever heard my Protector in single ended mode I would be very Meh about it, but in balanced it is an amazing amplifier.


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