# Gustard Amplifiers and DACs



## Schopenhauer

In the interest of consolidating the available information, evaluations, impressions, modifications etc. on Gustard's line of amplifiers, DACs and associated audio components, I've started this thread. Feel free to post about any model in the Gustard line-up. Write-ups of specific Gustard and non-Gustard gear pairings are also welcome.
  
 This first post will function as a table of contents, so to speak, both for this thread and for the dedicated thread on the H10: http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier. If you have anything you'd like to have included in this table of contents, please PM me the details and a link to the relevant post. 
  
 Welcome abroad the S.S. Gustard! Be sure to greet Capt. stuartmc and all the other swabbies! And be sure to check this post every so often as it will be updated.
  
 Best,
 Swabbie Schopenhauer
  
*H10 AMPLIFIER* 
*H10 thread*
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier
  
*H10 mods*
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/465#post_11214205
  
*H10 w/ specific headphones*
  
_HE-560 _
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/540#post_11228395
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/540#post_11228264
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/540#post_11232358
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/225#post_11122207
  
_HE-500_
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/240#post_11132188
  
_Alpha Dogs_
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/465#post_11214479
  
_Paradox Slant_
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/180#post_11096166
  
 HD800
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/150#post_11088691
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/225#post_11122207
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/210#post_11116668
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/1290#post_11530110
  
*H10 vs. other amps*
  
 Vs. ECP Black Diamond
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/ecp-audio-black-diamond/reviews/12463
  
 Vs. Violectric V200
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/630#post_11261292
  
_*X12 DAC*_
*X12 review*
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/720#post_11306358
  
*U12 USB INTERFACE*
*U12 thread*
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip
  
*U12 mods*
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/690#post_11289947


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## Arnotts

Great thread idea. People that have tried Gustard products seem to be universally impressed - the H10 amp, the X12 DAC and the U12 interface.
  
 I'm currently listening to LCD-2F's through the H10 and it sounds amazing. The punch, bass texture and extension is better than anything I've heard before. It's also so smooth, and vocals sound so intimate.
  
 The X12 will be arriving soon, too. Further impressions will come later!


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## Lohb

Oh dear, a Scottish captain at the helm, no rest for the wicked....


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## Lorspeaker

would like to know where the X12 pegs ....against the dacs in Audiogd ?  
 ( i have a mid tier dac from audiogd..nfb10.32)...would it be a sidegrade?


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## Arnotts

lorspeaker said:


> would like to know where the X12 pegs ....against the dacs in Audiogd ?
> ( i have a mid tier dac from audiogd..nfb10.32)...would it be a sidegrade?


 
  
 The X10 was very, very similar in build to the Wyred 4 Sound DAC 2 (which costs about $1,500 and gets reviewed very well)
  
 The X12 is an upgrade on the X10. I'm not sure how it compares to anything by AudioGD though, and it'll be hard to get that comparison until more people hear the Gustard products!


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## stuartmc

lohb said:


> Oh dear, a Scottish captain at the helm, no rest for the wicked....




Hey, I resemble that remark! Ha ha


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## stuartmc

Schopy, you're the man. Thanks so much for doing this. I look forward to many new posts on all things Gustard and perhaps winning a few more swabbies to our friendly crew.


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## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> Schopy, you're the man. Thanks so much for doing this. I look forward to many new posts on all things Gustard and perhaps winning a few more swabbies to our friendly crew.


 
 It's my pleasure! I'm passionate about the H10. And I'll try to pull some stuff together on the X12. 
  
 I've got an MDR-Z7 on the way, so expect reflections on it paired with the H10 (and probably the Black Diamond)!


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## Arnotts

There's also the big thread on the U12 USB interface, but I dunno if it belongs in a thread dedicated to Gustard amps and DACs
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip


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## stuartmc

arnotts said:


> There's also the big thread on the U12 USB interface, but I dunno if it belongs in a thread dedicated to Gustard amps and DACs
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip




We should include a link to it anyways. I'm finding that the U12 plays particularly well with the X12 and it definitely has that Gustard family trait - an outstanding price/performance ratio. It is also something of a badge of honor to have the "complete" Gustard stack.. He he.


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## Juventino77

Question regarding Gustard do they have their own page or are their products only detailed via the several sites ie: SHENZEN AUDIO / ALIEXPRESS / AMAZON etc etc


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## stuartmc

juventino77 said:


> Question regarding Gustard do they have their own page or are their products only detailed via the several sites ie: SHENZEN AUDIO / ALIEXPRESS / AMAZON etc etc



Apparently, Gustard is not yet a full fledged "brand" with its own marketing, website, etc. The investigative journalist in me wants to know much more about who they are - things like, who their principal designer is, where their manufacturing facility is located, what's his favorite color and if he could be any animal, what one would he choose... Ha, ha, I'm always fascinated by the people behind the products. 

I'm trying to find out more because the products themselves represent outstanding design and tremendous value. Obviously, someone there really knows what they are doing. I suspect that they are made in Taiwan because the seller, Vintage Audio Lab on eBay is from there and he seems to be a very early adopter. Early on, VAL was selling the same products without the Gustard name on the case. That suggests to me that he has a direct relationship with the manufacturer and they were close by.

I think Gustard is now transitioning to full brand status and I have my feelers out for direct communications and hopefully a pipeline to review their new products. I'm told that the flagship X20 DAC should be arriving by the end of February.


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## Juventino77

Stuart your are the Master! If you get any info please share! I am the same I like to research the company whose product I am thinking of purchasing. It's so important to know this information. 
I have almost pulled the trigger on the X12 but want to see what this X20 is all about!

Good luck with your investigation


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## Schopenhauer

Stuart, any news on the forthcoming flagship amp?


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## Schopenhauer

Table of contents has been updated. I've yet to devote a section to the X12. PM me any relevant reviews, mods etc. or post them in the thread!


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## mmlogic

stuartmc said:


> Apparently, Gustard is not yet a full fledged "brand" with its own marketing, website, etc. The investigative journalist in me wants to know much more about who they are - things like, who their principal designer is, where their manufacturing facility is located, what's his favorite color and if he could be any animal, what one would he choose... Ha, ha, I'm always fascinated by the people behind the products.
> 
> I'm trying to find out more because the products themselves represent outstanding design and tremendous value. Obviously, someone there really knows what they are doing. I suspect that they are made in Taiwan because the seller, Vintage Audio Lab on eBay is from there and he seems to be a very early adopter. Early on, VAL was selling the same products without the Gustard name on the case. That suggests to me that he has a direct relationship with the manufacturer and they were close by.
> 
> I think Gustard is now transitioning to full brand status and I have my feelers out for direct communications and hopefully a pipeline to review their new products. I'm told that the flagship X20 DAC should be arriving by the end of February.


 
 I'm a Taiwanese and I don't think they are made or designed in Taiwan, as a matter of fact, GASTARD's products are not so popular here, and the H10 I purchased from MSaudio a.k.a. Vintage Audio Lab was delivered from China.
 The only official web page of GASTARD I can find is their Taobao store, and I think the store manager Haung is the man behind these products.
 BTW, I share the same opinion with many head-fiers here: H10 has a ridiculously high C/P ratio and matches particularly well with orthodynamic headphones.


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## stuartmc

Thank you mmlogic!   My contact in Guangdong province never told me where they were located, so its nice to get some additional information. I will try contacting Haung at the Taobao store.


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## ansi

stuartmc said:


> Thank you mmlogic!   My contact in Guangdong province never told me where they were located, so its nice to get some additional information. I will try contacting Haung at the Taobao store.


 
  
 They are in Shenzhen. 深圳歌诗德电子 or Shenzhen Geshide Dianzi (Shenzhen Gustard Electornics) is the company name. The brand is not widely known since they are an OEM manufacturer, most of their products are re-branded or customized and sold by their customers in both China and abroad such as Rein, Valab, LJM... and many others. Like many old shanzhai manufacturers, they have started to develop their own brand as of late, but really have been around for a long time. 
  
 Edit: Took a closer look at it and seems that the manufacturing and the sales are maybe different companies, not just different departments. I'll ask when I get the chance.


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## stuartmc

ansi said:


> They are in Shenzhen. 深圳歌诗德电子 or Shenzhen Geshide Dianzi (Shenzhen Gustard Electornics) is the company name. The brand is not widely known since they are an OEM manufacturer, most of their products are re-branded or customized and sold by their customers in both China and abroad such as Rein, Valab, LJM... and many others. Like many old shanzhai manufacturers, they have started to develop their own brand as of late, but really have been around for a long time.
> 
> Edit: Took a closer look at it and seems that the manufacturing and the sales are maybe different companies, not just different departments. I'll ask when I get the chance.


 
 Ansi,
  
 This is very helpful information and as Captain Guinea Pig of the SS Gustard, I want to personally thank you for sharing your knowledge.  As of last night, I have re-joined my friends at positive-feedback online in the capacity of Associate Editor and legal counsel.  My schtick has always been to find and promote the products of companies whose price/performance ratio is ahead of the pack.  Gustard is one of those companies and I think they are poised to make a big splash in the audio pond. I want to help them if I can and give their products more exposure here on Head-fi and also at _PF_.  To do that properly and include some of the back story and personalities behind the brand, I need a direct contact person at Gustard who knows what's going on.   If you could help me do that, I, and quite a few of the swabbies around here, would be very grateful.
  
 Stu


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## Schopenhauer

stuartmc said:


> ansi said:
> 
> 
> > They are in Shenzhen. 深圳歌诗德电子 or Shenzhen Geshide Dianzi (Shenzhen Gustard Electornics) is the company name. The brand is not widely known since they are an OEM manufacturer, most of their products are re-branded or customized and sold by their customers in both China and abroad such as Rein, Valab, LJM... and many others. Like many old shanzhai manufacturers, they have started to develop their own brand as of late, but really have been around for a long time.
> ...


 
 I second that. They have a small but rabid - and rabidly, as it were, growing - fan base here in States. It would be a great time for them to strike.


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## ansi

stuartmc said:


> Ansi,
> 
> This is very helpful information and as Captain Guinea Pig of the SS Gustard, I want to personally thank you for sharing your knowledge.  As of last night, I have re-joined my friends at positive-feedback online in the capacity of Associate Editor and legal counsel.  My schtick has always been to find and promote the products of companies whose price/performance ratio is ahead of the pack.  Gustard is one of those companies and I think they are poised to make a big splash in the audio pond. I want to help them if I can and give their products more exposure here on Head-fi and also at _PF_.  To do that properly and include some of the back story and personalities behind the brand, I need a direct contact person at Gustard who knows what's going on.   If you could help me do that, I, and quite a few of the swabbies around here, would be very grateful.
> 
> Stu


 
  
 Sure, I'll do what I can. I don't think anyone in that company speaks English though so any contact may not be very direct unless you can speak Chinese.
  
 By the way, their taobao shop ships internationally (and taobao takes foreign credit cards) so for anyone who can speak Chinese or knows someone who can help them order, there's no need to use ebay or a taobao agent. They also have 1 year warranty and you can listen for 7 days and get a full refund if you decide to return the product. 
  
 edit: Called them up, happy to give me an interview. Feel free to send me any questions you want to ask em, cap'n 
 edit 2: Wow what nice guys. Not only did they invite me over to Shenzhen to take a tour and listen to all their stuff, byt they also offered to send me all their stuff to give them a listen, and cover the shipping back and forth.


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## Juventino77

This is brilliant, if you could get in on the new X20. Especially when they are looking to release and also at what price.
 What additional features have the added above the X12
 What other product lines are they looking to move into and if they will be sold under their brand or under other brands.
  
 The more information the better.
  
 Would you be willing to share their contact. I am in South Africa and would possibly like to help bring the product here.


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## ansi

juventino77 said:


> This is brilliant, if you could get in on the new X20. Especially when they are looking to release and also at what price.
> What additional features have the added above the X12
> What other product lines are they looking to move into and if they will be sold under their brand or under other brands.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No problem. Sent you PM. I'll be going to Shenzhen next month, after the Chinese New Year holidays and drop by. Hopefully they'll have an X20 to test.


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## abartels

Hi Ansi,
  
 I'm an owner of a Gustard U12 digital interface.
 If you are planning to go to the factory, maybe you could ask if there are schematics available!
 Would be very nice to get hands on them to mod the units 
  
 Further, i'm also VERY interested in the upcoming X20.
  
 Keep us posted please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Regards,
 Alex Bartels
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip


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## Benny-x

It'll be awesome to hear what Ansi finds after his trip to Gustard's factory at the end of this month. 
  
 This thread in general is great. Gustard is a HUGE cost vs. performance player and I'll enjoy having a look at their other gear. The love that other LCD-2.2 owners have for the H10 is giving me a push in that direction. I'm still impressed with my U12, too. If the firmware could be updated so that the I2s output was actually PS-Audio spec (right now it's out of phase and channels are switched) that'd be awesome. Luckily my DAC can invert phase and I can just swap the interconnects to solve the problem, but of course if that were corrected it'd be nice 
  
 Anyway, looking forward to more news.


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## motberg

benny-x said:


> It'll be awesome to hear what Ansi finds after his trip to Gustard's factory at the end of this month.
> 
> This thread in general is great. Gustard is a HUGE cost vs. performance player and I'll enjoy having a look at their other gear. The love that other LCD-2.2 owners have for the H10 is giving me a push in that direction. I'm still impressed with my U12, too. If the firmware could be updated so that the I2s output was actually PS-Audio spec (right now it's out of phase and channels are switched) that'd be awesome. Luckily my DAC can invert phase and I can just swap the interconnects to solve the problem, but of course if that were corrected it'd be nice
> 
> Anyway, looking forward to more news.


 

 Hi Ben, Can you confirm this is the current U12 HDMI output pinout?  Maybe it would be good to make a clear and specific request to Gustard to match some standard, or at least get their point of view on why they are using the current positions. If not possible/desired to change the firmware, maybe they can offer a crossover cable or adapter for various devices.


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## norbert2nd

You can check here "http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/164366-i2s-standards-ps-audio.html" that the PS-Audio standard is met by Gustard's implementation. No channel swap and no phase swap.
 I can confirm that there is no channel swap on PCM or DSD in my HDMI-connected U12/X12 combo.


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## Benny-x

motberg said:


> Hi Ben, Can you confirm this is the current U12 HDMI output pinout?  Maybe it would be good to make a clear and specific request to Gustard to match some standard, or at least get their point of view on why they are using the current positions. If not possible/desired to change the firmware, maybe they can offer a crossover cable or adapter for various devices.


 
 If you can tell me how to check it, I'll have a look and confirm it 
  
 I agree that having a specific request like "swap pins 1 and 3, 7 and 9, and 12 and 14 to make your output match the industry standard PS-Audio HDMI-I2s spec" would be a great idea. Definitely more helpful than just asking them to meet that spec. Since there isn't another HDMI-I2s spec that I know of, I'd say they just tried to meet it and accidentally swapped some pairs. If you look at it it's not like the pins are just all over the place, they're very specifically wrong 
  
 Anyway, let me know how to confirm what pins are doing what and I'll go to work.


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## motberg

norbert2nd said:


> You can check here "http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/164366-i2s-standards-ps-audio.html" that the PS-Audio standard is met by Gustard's implementation. No channel swap and no phase swap.
> I can confirm that there is no channel swap on PCM or DSD in my HDMI-connected U12/X12 combo.


 

 Hi, thanks for the great link. I am not an EE so maybe reading incorrectly, but seems maybe the data pins 1 & 3 are different phase comparing the info published by PS in your link and the pinout info published by Gustard on their taobao.tw website store. I think this would be interesting info to show to Gustard and get their perspective. Maybe they can provide some phase switch options similar to the Hydra-Z or at least verify that their published pinout is the latest revision. I am a customer and occasionally do product development work with a small Shenzhen/Dongguan electric components supplier and in my experience they really appreciate when they have the opportunity to discuss this kind of detail stuff face-to-face.
  
 Other items for the U12 would be external power supply input - and some details on exactly what happens to the USB 5V after it is used to turn-on the device..


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## motberg

norbert2nd said:


> You can check here "http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/164366-i2s-standards-ps-audio.html" that the PS-Audio standard is met by Gustard's implementation. No channel swap and no phase swap.
> I can confirm that there is no channel swap on PCM or DSD in my HDMI-connected U12/X12 combo.


 

 Hi Again! I was wondering of you ever compared the HDMI connection to any of the SPDIF options? If so, your impressions on the SQ differences would be most welcome..


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## norbert2nd

... you are right, my eyes are getting old: Data and LRCK lines seem to be inverted. Could be that Gustard did it wrong two times: Once on the sender's and once on the receiver's side which nulls out in the U12/X12 combo.
 I have not compared I2S against SPDIF but USB via X12 vs. USB via U12 and HDMI out to X12.
 The difference is subtle but nevertheless something which you do not want to give away. Objects in the soundstage are more 3D vs. 2D-projections. Just more live-like.
 Not to start another cable discussion, but that is also depending on the cable. I'm using an Audioquest Chocolate HDMI cable (1 m) vs. a generic HDMI cable (30 cm). The "normal" HDMI was really no comparison.
 With the "normal" HDMI cable USB on the X12 is clearly superior.


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## abartels

motberg said:


> Hi Ben, Can you confirm this is the current U12 HDMI output pinout?  Maybe it would be good to make a clear and specific request to Gustard to match some standard, or at least get their point of view on why they are using the current positions. If not possible/desired to change the firmware, maybe they can offer a crossover cable or adapter for various devices.


 
 +1 I 100% agree with that


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## motberg

norbert2nd said:


> ......................
> I have not compared I2S against SPDIF but USB via X12 vs. USB via U12 and HDMI out to X12.
> The difference is subtle but nevertheless something which you do not want to give away. Objects in the soundstage are more 3D vs. 2D-projections. Just more live-like.
> Not to start another cable discussion, but that is also depending on the cable. I'm using an Audioquest Chocolate HDMI cable (1 m) vs. a generic HDMI cable (30 cm). The "normal" HDMI was really no comparison.
> With the "normal" HDMI cable USB on the X12 is clearly superior.


 
 Thanks - that is really interesting and seems to be similar to what I have been reading in other threads... especially interesting that I2S with an external DDC can meet or beat what I assume is a pretty good USB internal implementation. Also thanks to verify the importance of the HDMI cable, but as you mention best to keep that issue quiet lest some of the bits-are-bits crowd are lurking nearby..


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## Arnotts

Just compared the LCD-X's from the Gustard H10 + X12 stack to the Matrix M-Stage amp and M-Stage DAC stack (note this is not the built-in DAC on the M-Stage amp, but the separate, more expensive DAC unit).
  
 I used seven test tracks:
  
 Enya - Caribbean Blue
 Radiohead - Subterranean Homesick Alien
 How to Destroy Angels - Ice Age (deadmau5 Remix)
 Green Day - Uptight
 Knife Party - Boss Mode
 Michael Jackson - Rock With You
 ODESZA - All We Need
  
 I wrote down my thoughts as I listened to each track on each setup. They were mostly the same across all tracks, with some songs excelling even more in particular areas because of how they were mixed/mastered. I volume-matched both stacks BY EAR, not with any measurements. All of the following thoughts are RELATIVE to the other stack that I am comparing the songs on.
  
*SOUND COMPARISON:*
  
 It was pretty consistent that the* M-Stage stack* sounded smoother and more forgiving. There was less micro-detail on each sound. The soundstage wasn't as well defined - it felt smaller and less 3D/holographic. There was some depth to the soundstage, but not much.
  
 Imaging was blurrier relative to the Gustard stack - sounds were less separated and didn't have as much space in the soundstage. Bass was not as deep, as punchy, as tight or as textured compared to the Gustard stack.
  
 Voices are a little more forward and are smoother. The M-Stage stack makes music sound more musical - you don't hear much of the micro-detail that can potentially expose flaws in the recordings.
  
 It has this smooth, organic feel. The Green Day track in particular really sounded natural and musical on the M-Stages.
  
 The *Gustard stack* is a step up in terms of imaging/soundstage, overall resolution, frequency extension and "impact" (this thing hits very hard - you can really hear and feel the power and dynamics of elements in songs).
  
 It feels like the song is projected out in a holographic soundstage, with excellent imaging as sounds are placed coherently around your head. There is excellent width and depth to the soundstage. I always found tracks were very engaging listening to the H10 and X12, they had a lot of energy as well as space. There is a great sense of listening to music in a room, with it being played live and in person.
  
 Bass had excellent power and texture. Vocals sounded very well positioned in the mix, sounding like they were being projected from out in center stage in front of you.
  
 Not everything was completely a step up from the M-Stage stack, though. The level of detail at some points edged on harsh. The vocals in Rock With You, when Michael is really intensely singing, can have this almost-harsh feel. It's not so bad that I would quite call it harsh, but it's definitely not as smooth as I would like for pure enjoyment.
  
 This is simply relative to the M-Stage stack, though, so I still absolutely love listening to ANY song on this setup . This may be something that will be mitigated with more time using the X12 as well, as I've only had it for about 2 weeks now.
  
 I also compared the stacks to the* Xonar Essence STX* with its built-in headphone amp. It sounded OK - to a listener that was not aware of what good imaging, good soundstage and proper bass extension/texture sounds like, it would even do very well. The soundstage was quite 2D and flat, with decent width but no depth. The sound was clean and clear, with instruments sounding good and tonally accurate.
  
 Bass was looser and less textured than with the M-Stages and significantly looser than with the Gustards, which meant that it had less presence as well. The Xonar was also not as edgy as the H10 + X12 right now, but not as smooth as the M-Stage stack. The Essence STX would be a pretty decent choice for non-critical listening, as hearing those other aspects of sound requires the user to have a lot more focus and/or experience. Listening to music on the Xonar while playing a game or doing other activities would be fine for me.
  
 I've also got the Gustard U12 coming in, so if the X12 doesn't smooth out with more use then hopefully the U12 helps it a bit there.
  
 Having said that, I hope that little bit of extra glare/edginess isn't part of certain recordings that the LCD-X's + Gustard stack is now revealing.


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## stuartmc

arnotts said:


> I've also got the Gustard U12 coming in, so if the X12 doesn't smooth out with more use then hopefully the U12 helps it a bit there.
> 
> Having said that, I hope that little bit of extra glare/edginess isn't part of certain recordings that the LCD-X's + Gustard stack is now revealing.


 
 Nice job here Arnotts!  I appreciate your responding to my request for a comparison to the M-Stage gear.
  
 In my own experience, the "glare/edginess" was not inherent to the X12.  It was only part of the break in process and some isolation issues I had when stacking things up initially.  Somewhere in the 50 to 100 hours mark, it disappeared. Admittedly, it was probably aided by my very careful attention to keeping the X12 away from the big emi/rfi sources, using very good power supply filtering and always having at least an hour of warm up before listening.  
  
 The X12/H10 stack, as you noted, is very highly resolving and will speak the truth about the recording.  I know the recording is the culprit because I have some very high res recordings that sound incredibly life-like with no glare/edge whatsoever. I have others that are just "meh" and then some that are clearly over-processed, compressed and rather irritating.  Fortunately for me, I was on the "list" for several audiophile labels (Chesky, Sheffield Lab and Reference Recordings, to name a few) and the vast majority of my music collection sounds like aural manna on the X12/H10 with the HE-560 cans.  I think there is a trade off here - the life-like soundstaging and imaging we love only shows up when very low level information, cues if you will, peak up out of the noise floor.  That kind of low level resolution will also unmask any flaws there are in the recording itself.  I frequently find myself saying, "I love this music, but why oh why did they record it like this."  There is hope. I recently listened to Jeff Beck's "Emotion and Commotion" on the ATCO label which is a division of Warner Music and it is not only great music, but it is superbly recorded. Pretty cool for a major label. On the other hand, I listened to Lee Ritenour's  "6 String Theory" on the Concord records label and although it has fantastic compositions, the recording exhibits some of what you and I would call "glare and edge"...not a lot, but enough to diminish the aural pleasure appreciably.... sigh..... What's an audiophile to do?!


----------



## Arnotts

No worries, Stu. Happy to give back to the Gustard threads by adding my own impressions.
  
 I've been listening to the H10 + X12 more and I think in the past day or so, it has smoothed out a little more. The sound doesn't make me think of the words "glare/edgy/harsh" at all, like it did previously. The sound was excellent before, but the extra smoothness makes it even more musically pleasing.
  
 And I completely agree, having a setup as resolving as the Gustard stack along with a pair of high end headphones really shows you the differences in the recording quality of tracks. Some really shine and become even more incredible, while others are relatively flat and blurry.
  
 I think (and hope) we're seeing a bit of a resurgence in the importance of sound quality for the average music listener, which should hopefully have a trickle down effect with record labels wanting to cater to the new demand for quality.


----------



## mamba315

Does anyone know about the flagship head amp? Is it a real product in development or just a silly rumor?


----------



## ansi

mamba315 said:


> Does anyone know about the flagship head amp? Is it a real product in development or just a silly rumor?


 
  
 X20 and a balanced amp are coming. Asked Gustard directly. I'm meeting them this week so I'll have more info soon.


----------



## mamba315

If you get a chance, I'm curious if the balanced amp is intended to offer higher sound quality for all phones, or simply more power for the HE6/K1000 crowd?


----------



## ansi

So, I met with Gustard the other day in Shenzhen, with both the head of sales and the head engineer. I'll have a longer write up on them next week for you guys, but here are some spoilers:
  
 - For all you DIY guys out there, they'd be happy to answer any technical questions and help modders etc. but can't speak any English. When I have time I'll help out with that bit. 
 - X20 is coming... and the first batch is only 200 units. Also, it's huge. Like twice the size of X12.
 - A balanced amp is coming, and to @mamba315 no, it's not for the HE6 crowd, as there is another prototype for them. That one may never see production though since it's very heavy and would be too expensive to ship to US where most of the HE6 owners are.
 - Good news coming up for international Gustard fans as they will start selling directly to customers abroad and handling warranty themselves. They'll extend that warranty to devices bought from third parties before.
  
 Coming up: info on the company, how it got started, who are the people behind it, what plans they have for this year, some insights on differences between Chinese and Western headphone/hifi scene, how to get their products for reviews, and of course more info on the products.


----------



## abartels

ansi said:


> So, I met with Gustard the other day in Shenzhen, with both the head of sales and the head engineer. I'll have a longer write up on them next week for you guys, but here are some spoilers:
> 
> - For all you DIY guys out there, they'd be happy to answer any technical questions and help modders etc. but can't speak any English. When I have time I'll help out with that bit.
> - X20 is coming... and the first batch is only 200 units. Also, it's huge. Like twice the size of X12.
> ...


 
  
 Hi Ansi,
  
 Thanks for this great info!!
 Can't wait for the follow-up 
  
 Btw did you manage to get schematics of U12?
  
 Can we opt-in for a X20?
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## SodaBoy

ansi said:


> So, I met with Gustard the other day in Shenzhen, with both the head of sales and the head engineer. I'll have a longer write up on them next week for you guys, but here are some spoilers:
> 
> - For all you DIY guys out there, they'd be happy to answer any technical questions and help modders etc. but can't speak any English. When I have time I'll help out with that bit.
> - X20 is coming... and the first batch is only 200 units. Also, it's huge. Like twice the size of X12.
> ...


 

 Haha it's our man in Shenzhen reporting. Thanks for the news. I am more interested in the balanced amp now, hope they use something better than a volume pot.


----------



## Benny-x

ansi said:


> So, I met with Gustard the other day in Shenzhen, with both the head of sales and the head engineer. I'll have a longer write up on them next week for you guys, but here are some spoilers:


 
  That's really awesome that you worked out all the timing for this and were actually able to meet up with them. Even if it was something of interest for you, I think a lot of other people out there, me included, are really grateful for your efforts. Thanks a lot, Ansi.
  
 Quote:


ansi said:


> - For all you DIY guys out there, they'd be happy to answer any technical questions and help modders etc. but can't speak any English. When I have time I'll help out with that bit.


 
 Even if they can't speak English, that's awesome news! It'd be cool if we could get the schematics like Abartels mentioned, but even if we can't, the fact that they'd help us out with modding questions is huge! And thanks for offering to help with this. And for those of us that can't speak Chinese, as funny as it might sound, I've had amazingly good results with google translate when trouble shooting technical issues with Chinese companies. Even if it's not perfect, they tend to get the idea. 
  


ansi said:


> - X20 is coming... and the first batch is only 200 units. Also, it's huge. Like twice the size of X12.


 
 The X20 is supposed to come out in May or so, isn't it? I wonder what their final price really will be AND what DAC chip it's going to use. Paralleled ESS 9018? I'm happy to hear it's big, I don't have any space limits and tend to like the big and chunky components. The X20 wouldn't happen to have one of those fancy, outboard power supplies, would it? I'm also a big fan of those.
  


ansi said:


> - A balanced amp is coming, and to @mamba315 no, it's not for the HE6 crowd, as there is another prototype for them. That one may never see production though since it's very heavy and would be too expensive to ship to US where most of the HE6 owners are.


 
 Great... Just what I needed to hear. Not that I need a new amp in any way, but if there was something new and special and balanced I might have to take a look. Damn. As for the second part about a more powerful amp, since I sit here in China I might happily take something with more power if it ever released domestically. 
  


ansi said:


> - Good news coming up for international Gustard fans as they will start selling directly to customers abroad and handling warranty themselves. They'll extend that warranty to devices bought from third parties before.


 
 That's really awesome news. Even for us non-international buyers it's good to hear that Gustard is building their own brand and will soon start handling things themselves. It'll definitely make for not such a complicated process in getting a hold of them. And they may even make up a "news page" for up coming items for us all to gawk at. 
  


ansi said:


> Coming up: info on the company, how it got started, who are the people behind it, what plans they have for this year, some insights on differences between Chinese and Western headphone/hifi scene, how to get their products for reviews, and of course more info on the products.


 
 I'm really looking forward to your more in-depth followup. It's fun to find this stuff out and I'll be happy to learn how to keep a better eye out for their upcoming stuff.


----------



## MoatsArt

Hope to join the crew of SS Gustard very soon via a Massdrop H10.  Midshipman MoatsArt reporting for duty, Sir.


----------



## auvgeek

Thanks for the info, ansi. Looking forward to your longer update.
  
 I'm very interested in the X20 and new balanced amp. And very curious how they will compare to the corresponding Schiit products. Also curious how Gustard's pricing will change when they start selling direct.


----------



## ansi

For everyone waiting for my report, apologies for not having it up yet - I've been really busy and on the road virtually the whole last two weeks. To make up for the delay, here's the X20 prototype for your viewing pleasure. ES9018 for each channel @Benny-x


----------



## bahamot

Is Gustard X20 also a preamp?
 Can you share its specs?


----------



## abvolt

looks good specs..


----------



## ansi

*Gustard - who are they?*
  
 The other week I was heading down to Shenzhen for a business trip. I had asked Mr. Huang, the business manager and co-founder of Gustard to meet me for a chat, and he had agreed to meet me at my hotel. In the morning I got a call from Mr. Huang that they had arrived, so I walked down to see two young men maybe around the age of 30 waving at me.
  
 These two men are the founders of the company: Mr. Huang, a former officer of China’s People’s Liberation Army, and the principal engineer (who would rather not have his name posted), a self-taught engineer who used to work for a small PA systems manufacturer designing speakers and microphones.
  
 Brought together by their common hobby, they designed their first DAC for the DIY community in China in 2009 when the high end market was still dominated by expensive foreign brands. They would build one by hand for every order, and were quickly overwhelmed by the demand when the word spread of the quality. They decided that they would need to contract a manufacturer to satisfy the demand, and Gustard was born.
  
 Even with high demand for your product, using a contract manufacturer poses a significant monetary risk. In order to keep the price down you need to manufacture a certain number of units, and there is no guarantee you can sell them all. This is a problem that small Chinese companies face every time they release a new product – you have no means of predicting demand, and all you have is your trust in your product. Additionally, you can’t just use any manufacturer out there as high end audio products need a high level of quality control, so you may see your product launch delayed just because the capacity is taken by larger customers.
  
 Mr. Huang tells me that they are very good in making products, but horrible at everything else. They do no marketing and can’t speak a word of English – word of mouth is all they have to help them make sales.
  
 Despite having no experience in foreign markets, they are very interested in selling to the west, and have a plan to do so this year. They have sold DACs and amps through OEM partnerships, branded as something else, for years and have been very successful. There are also many Chinese companies that have sold their products abroad. While this has worked for them this far, Mr. Huang wants to establish the Gustard brand abroad, and also wants to make sure the foreign customers get the service they deserve.
  
 By service, Huang means being involved with the community and handling warranty directly. They currently have zero return rate from their partners and resellers, and they suspect part of it may be due to people just not returning faulty units, either because they don’t know they have warranty or don’t know how to return the product. They want people to know that they will honor warranty for every product that says Gustard on it, no matter where you bought it.
  
 I jokingly suggested to them that they should have an e-mail address so someone could actually contact them. Huang’s answer was: “Really? In China we usually use instant messaging”. I then realized that it’s not that I couldn’t find their email address; it’s that they don’t have one. After I explained that we foreigners are a bit backwards and still use email, they agreed that they probably should have an email address for their foreign customers.
  
 We can expect to see a website with detailed product information in English, an official Gustard online store and an email address in the near future.
  
*Products*
  
 I won’t go into much detail about existing products here, as there’s a lot of information on the boards already. There are six Gustard products out in the market now, with various brandings. These are:
  
 ·        - U12
 ·        - DAC-X8 USB
 ·        - DAC-X9 USB
 ·        - DAC-X10
 ·        - DAC-X12
 ·        - DAC-X12 USB
 ·        - H10
  
 The chips they’ve used or built prototypes with include CS4398, PCM1792 / PCM1794, AD1853 / AD1955, WM8740 / WM8741 and ESS9016 / ESS9018. They are particularly fond of ESS9018 and it has been their chip of choice from X10 onwards.
  
 Their most successful product is U12, which is the best seller to this day. X8 and X9 are good examples of Gustard products being rebranded and sold in the west. Going OEM is a great way to minimize risk from manufacturing as you could have a batch made and sell it immediately, and another company would carry the risk of it gathering dust in a warehouse. However, this goes against Gustard’s philosophy of selling high-end products with affordable prices, as their partners have a tendency to mark the prices up quite a bit.
  
 There are three products coming up:
  
 ·        - DAC-X20 (May-June 2015). ESS9018 for each channel, a big and heavy piece of equipment which I’m still waiting for a permission to publish specs for. The initial batch will be only 200 units, and the price will be very attractive – another piece of information I want to share but haven’t gotten a permission just yet
  
 ·        - A balanced amp (Q3-Q4 2015). An amp to pair with DAC-X20, I haven’t seen it or seen the specs. Only think Mr. Huang told me about it was that it is aimed at quality instead of raw power. Can probably still drive HE6 but not with insane volumes
  
 ·        - An amp for HE6 and other power-hungry headphones. They have a design for this, but it may or may not see production. Very large and heavy, shipping overseas would be costly and that’s where the target audience is for something like this
  
*I don’t want to wait for a website or an email address! How can I…*
  
 ...contact Gustard?
 You’ll need to open up taobao.com, go to their store page and add Mr. Huang to your Aliwawa. Yes, “huang_cs” is him. If you have no idea what any of that means, it will be difficult – it’s all in Chinese and they only speak Chinese. I’d be happy to help though, and I’ve already received PM’s and other requests on this thread and I will continue to help getting everyone the information they are after
  
 ...get review samples?
 Gustard is a small company with low profit margins, so they are not jumping on the opportunity to send out kits for review. They said they would consider lending their test units to reviewers if they could be trusted to send them to the next reviewer or back to them. There is only one X20 in existence right now so for those who want one ahead of production are out of luck unfortunately
  
 …get U12 schematics?
 They haven’t decided if they can publish those. U12 continues to be one of their top sellers. If it was obsolete it’d be an easier decision. You may need to wait until they have their website and email up so you can direct your questions to them directly.
  
 …make sure I get an X20 from the first batch?
 Either talk to Mr. Huang on Aliwawa or send me PM, I’ll hook you up
  
*Thanks*
  
 I’d like to thank Gustard for meeting me for a chat, buying me lunch, and most of all trusting me.
  
 It was difficult to persuade Mr. Huang to allow me to even post the pics of the X20 since he thought they look ugly, not being taken by a pro photographer or having been photoshopped, not to mention publishing specs or pricing ahead of launch which I’m still trying to persuade him to let me do. He was not easily convinced that introducing the company would be a good idea either – after all, they are small, and Chinese consumers don’t trust small companies. But he believed me when I said that the western consumer appreciates transparency and honesty over brand recognition and pretty pictures, so that’s what we got.


----------



## abartels

ansi said:


> *Gustard - who are they?*
> 
> The other week I was heading down to Shenzhen for a business trip. I had asked Mr. Huang, the business manager and co-founder of Gustard to meet me for a chat, and he had agreed to meet me at my hotel. In the morning I got a call from Mr. Huang that they had arrived, so I walked down to see two young men maybe around the age of 30 waving at me.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Ansi,
  
 Thank you very much for explaining to us!
 Keep up the good work 
  
 Alex


----------



## auvgeek

ansi said:


> ·        - DAC-X20 (May-June 2015). ESS9018 for each channel, a big and heavy piece of equipment which I’m still waiting for a permission to publish specs for. The initial batch will be only 200 units, and the price will be very attractive – another piece of information I want to share but haven’t gotten a permission just yet


 
  
 Will the X20 have a better integrated USB implementation, or do they still recommend using the U12 as a USB converter like they do for the X12? 
  
 I'm particularly interested in the balanced amp. Please let us know more when you can! Thanks again for the excellent update.


----------



## stuartmc

ansi said:


> *Gustard - who are they?*
> 
> 
> ...get review samples?
> Gustard is a small company with low profit margins, so they are not jumping on the opportunity to send out kits for review. They said they would consider lending their test units to reviewers if they could be trusted to send them to the next reviewer or back to them. There is only one X20 in existence right now so for those who want one ahead of production are out of luck unfortunately


 
 Great job Ansi.  As you know from our private conversation, I have the green light to review and promote the Gustard line both with www.positive-feedback.com and also with my friends here.  It's what I have always done in the audio world and the only thing that gets me really excited - discovering the talented new guys who deliver great value to the less pecunious audiophiles.  I will try to communicate with Mr. Huang through taobao.com, but I certainly do appreciate your making the initial contact for us.   Capt. Guinea Pig of the SS. Gustard is on the case.


----------



## SodaBoy

Thanks a lot Ansi.
  
 Looks like one of my predictions of a dual mono DAC came true lol.


----------



## Amleth

> Looks like one of my predictions of a dual mono DAC came true lol.


 
  
 If they come out with a matching dual-mono amp like rumoured (H20, I'd assume?), and it's proportionately as good as the H10 seems to be plus has a 4-pin XLR true dual mono out, it sounds like they'll have a pretty compelling budget-high-end option on their hands.
  
 I just wish they'd consulted with native English speakers over their brand name. Ideally, I prefer my Hi-Fi equipment not to evoke thoughts of goose and custard. They don't even go together, let alone have anything to do with Hi-Fi or any positive associations with it, either. Mmmn, love those custardy mids on the X20. I find the competing Yulong options to be more like créme Anglais, and the price-matched Schiit options are downright pudding-ey. See? No good.
  
 (And that's going Euro-style and pronouncing it "Goostard" to try and summon at least a little gravitas, because making it rhyme with "custard" is an even worse option. :/ )


----------



## Lohb

amleth said:


> I just wish they'd consulted with native English speakers over their brand name. Ideally, I prefer my Hi-Fi equipment not to evoke thoughts of goose and custard. They don't even go together, let alone have anything to do with Hi-Fi or any positive associations with it, either. Mmmn, love those custardy mids on the X20. I find the competing Yulong options to be more like créme Anglais, and the price-matched Schiit options are downright pudding-ey. See? No good.
> 
> (And that's going Euro-style and pronouncing it "Goostard" to try and summon at least a little gravitas, because making it rhyme with "custard" is an even worse option. :/ )


 
 +1 ....better-and-better stuff coming from the small Chinese brands.. but the naming is a bit wonky for stuff....lost in translation or something like that.


----------



## bebop86

interesting units


----------



## Benny-x

amleth said:


> I just wish they'd consulted with native English speakers over their brand name. Ideally, I prefer my Hi-Fi equipment not to evoke thoughts of goose and custard. They don't even go together, let alone have anything to do with Hi-Fi or any positive associations with it, either. Mmmn, love those custardy mids on the X20. I find the competing Yulong options to be more like créme Anglais, and the price-matched Schiit options are downright pudding-ey. See? No good.


 
 That was funny. There are a lot of stupid names out there, but I also wish the Gustard came with a better one.
  


> Originally Posted by *Amleth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> (And that's going Euro-style and pronouncing it "Goostard" to try and summon at least a little gravitas, because making it rhyme with "custard" is an even worse option. :/ )


 
 And I've also been wondering what people's take on this was. I'd been in the Goo-Star(soft)d camp until now, as I just can't bring myself to call them G+custard...


----------



## SynthAddicted

I'm not sure if I should be asking this in the H10 thread or here, but I am wondering what the best method of purchase is.
 The best price I have seen (not accounting for exchange rate fluctuations) is on the Gustard Taobao store (275+shipping), followed by aliexpress (a seller I didn't recognize- and I think the sale price actually ended) and E-bay (vintage audio labs) both coming in at ~$350 shipped. I 'm mostly wondering whether there is a warranty difference in where I buy it from, and what the usual customs situation (price) is in the US. I have to say, I'm really really sad I missed it on massdrop- how I wish I could have gotten it for $300 plus their help in the case of shipping damage or something.  
  
 It would be really nice (And possibly the cheapest) to buy It direct on TaoBao, but that would require me find someone who reads chinese to help me (and possibly set up alipay or something), or pay extra for an agent.
  
 Thoughts? (after much consideration I am currently planning on getting An H10, a modi 2 uber, and Paradox- unless LFF recommends differently when I order my paradox)


----------



## Liu Junyuan

synthaddicted said:


> I'm not sure if I should be asking this in the H10 thread or here, but I am wondering what the best method of purchase is.
> The best price I have seen (not accounting for exchange rate fluctuations) is on the Gustard Taobao store (275+shipping), followed by aliexpress (a seller I didn't recognize- and I think the sale price actually ended) and E-bay (vintage audio labs) both coming in at ~$350 shipped. I 'm mostly wondering whether there is a warranty difference in where I buy it from, and what the usual customs situation (price) is in the US. I have to say, I'm really really sad I missed it on massdrop- how I wish I could have gotten it for $300 plus their help in the case of shipping damage or something.
> 
> It would be really nice (And possibly the cheapest) to buy It direct on TaoBao, but that would require me find someone who reads chinese to help me (and possibly set up alipay or something), or pay extra for an agent.
> ...




I got mine through Massdrop, but the preferred seller on ebay is Pollychen, according to most people on the H10 thread. You might search his name in that thread to see what people have said about him.


----------



## stuartmc

http://m.ebay.com/itm/261520921654?nav=SEARCH

Yes, pollychen on eBay has been our preferred seller. He uses DHL for shipping to the states and the few extra dollars is worth it.


----------



## politbureau

FYI - the Gustard X12 launched on Massdrop today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-dac-x12-usb-version
  
 $499 starting price
 $469 tier 2
 $439 if completely unlocked
  
 Shipping is $50 to Canada (not sure about US), meaning at the first two tiers it's actually more expensive then buying from the typical ebay vendors/shenzen who offer free shipping.
  
 I was just thinking that it would be awesome to see vendors offering a deal on the X12 + U12, or even X12 + U12 + H10.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Hibuckhobby

Listening to my H10 right now and loving it!  I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of a
 X10 DAC?   I'm watching the massdrop on the X12 right now, but not sure it's a big step up.
 regards,
 Hibuck....


----------



## bavinck

hibuckhobby said:


> Listening to my H10 right now and loving it!  I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of a
> X10 DAC?   I'm watching the massdrop on the X12 right now, but not sure it's a big step up.
> regards,
> Hibuck....


 
 Pretty sure the x10 was replaced by the x12.


----------



## politbureau

X12 replaced X10. Gustard is no longer making the X10, though you might be able to find it used.
  
 Still, the X12 is a fantastic unit, esp with the XMOS USB card. I just found out it will actually do internal USB>I2S and pass the signal directly to the 9018. This also means that the USB board is replaceable, though Gustard themselves say that this board will be in their upcoming X20, so I imagine it won't be replaced for awhile.
  
 Combined with DSD64/128 decoding, this thing is a steal for $500. I've spoken with 3 seperate Head-Fiers that I know and trust in the last 48h, and they've all stated that they preferred the X12 to the Gungnir, which they all previously owned. High praise indeed.


----------



## HPiper

It is hard to find solid prices for all this stuff. So a complete desktop system would consist of an X12 (DAC) and a H10(Amp), how much would that end up costing after shipping and all the rest, sitting on my doorstep. I am guessing around $1000. ?? Just trying to get a feel for where this comes in compared to say an Oppo HA1 or a Burson Conductor.


----------



## LancerFIN

hpiper said:


> It is hard to find solid prices for all this stuff. So a complete desktop system would consist of an X12 (DAC) and a H10(Amp), how much would that end up costing after shipping and all the rest, sitting on my doorstep. I am guessing around $1000. ?? Just trying to get a feel for where this comes in compared to say an Oppo HA1 or a Burson Conductor.


 
 Around $800 if you get the X12 from massdrop. I am not sure how much import taxes US residents get.


----------



## auvgeek

Has pricing on the X20 been released yet? It would also be nice to know if the X20 will have USB implementation on par with the U12.
  
 It's a little too bad the X12 massdrop is on before any reviews of the X20 have come out...


----------



## politbureau

auvgeek said:


> Has pricing on the X20 been released yet? It would also be nice to know if the X20 will have USB implementation on par with the U12.
> 
> It's a little too bad the X12 massdrop is on before any reviews of the X20 have come out...


 
 Nothing I've seen yet. Google doesn't even pull up any intelligible results unless you add "head fi" to the search string, haha.
  
 I will say the unit is huge - looks like full 2U rack size in Ansi's pics, so I hope there's significant separation of the various circuits, as well as as dedicated USB similar to U12.
  
 Gustard themselves have said that 'technically' the U12 paired with the X12 provides better results, though who knows. Some might say that's marketing, but the U12 is already so popular in it's own right it's hard to say.
  
 That said, I don't understand why the U12 doesn't match the X12 aesthetically... I imagine more X12 owners would have splurged for the combo if they looked sexy stacked together. Aesthetically matched components sound better, as everyone knows. Just ask the design team at Schiit


----------



## auvgeek

politbureau said:


> Nothing I've seen yet. Google doesn't even pull up any intelligible results unless you add "head fi" to the search string, haha.
> 
> I will say the unit is huge - looks like full 2U rack size in Ansi's pics, so I hope there's significant separation of the various circuits, as well as as dedicated USB similar to U12.


 
 I don't mind the size at all. I'm hopeful the large size translates to high SQ, but I realize that's not necessarily the case.
  


> Originally Posted by *politbureau* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Gustard themselves have said that 'technically' the U12 paired with the X12 provides better results, though who knows. Some might say that's marketing, but the U12 is already so popular in it's own right it's hard to say.


 
 To clarify, Gustard said the U12 + X12 provides better results than the X12 alone or the X20? If better than the X12 alone, that would make sense. Cap'n Stu has opened both the X12 and U12...I don't recall the exact quote, but he said something about how the U12 has much better/spacious layout while the USB board in the X12 is a bit crammed in there. I'm hopeful the X20 negates the need for a U12.


----------



## politbureau

> I don't mind the size at all. I'm hopeful the large size translates to high SQ, but I realize that's not necessarily the case.


 

 Ditto. Thats my hope at least...
  


> To clarify, Gustard said the U12 + X12 provides better results than the X12 alone or the X20? If better than the X12 alone, that would make sense. Cap'n Stu has opened both the X12 and U12...I don't recall the exact quote, but he said something about how the U12 has much better/spacious layout while the USB board in the X12 is a bit crammed in there. I'm hopeful the X20 negates the need for a U12.


 
 vs the X12 with USB card.
  
 The question is does a more complex topology equate to better sound, or does the 'crammed in' USB card provide a shorter, cleaner signal path directly to the DAC that means better performance.
  
 Same question I ask myself when looking at Dr. Kingwa's AGD designs... the new NFB-1 has more parts in it than the space shuttle, I'm pretty sure.


----------



## Schopenhauer

I keep eyeing the drop for the X12. It's very, very tempting. I'm just glad I have five days to make up my mind. After having the H10, I know Gustard offers great build quality and value. Hell, even the name is starting to grow on me.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> I keep eyeing the drop for the X12. It's very, very tempting. I'm just glad I have five days to make up my mind. After having the H10, I know Gustard offers great build quality and value. Hell, even the name is starting to grow on me.




Oh yeah schopy... You know you want that Gustard goodness! I promise that you won't be disappointed with X12


----------



## Schopenhauer

I certainly do, Cap'n Stu! One thing I'm wondering about are the so-called macrodynamics of the X12, or its ability to render things like bass slam, punches and kicks, hi-hats etcs. I mean, take it with a grain of salt, but I've read impressions of the ESS9018 that indicate macrodynamics are a bit limp/hollow. That worries me nonetheless. I know the ESS9018 is supposed to be great for plankton, but I also like to fish for larger catch.


----------



## m0reilly

i've ordered both the u12 and x12, and would like to hear from others with the same combo as to which connection they prefer between the u and x units. i'm leanig toward the i2s atrm...


----------



## Arnotts

m0reilly said:


> i've ordered both the u12 and x12, and would like to hear from others with the same combo as to which connection they prefer between the u and x units. i'm leanig toward the i2s atrm...


 

 Stuartmc mentioned a while ago that he likes to use I2S from the U12 to the X12, but he also said that he felt that the quality of the HDMI cable made a significant difference.
  
 I personally tried I2S from the U12 to the X12 with ONE cheap HDMI cable and felt that I preferred going straight to the USB input on the X12. I'm not interested in testing more HDMI cables, though, to see if I can notice improvements.
  
 Conquerator2 felt the same way as I did about preferring the X12's own USB input over the U12, but I'm not sure if he used I2S.


----------



## politbureau

arnotts said:


> Stuartmc mentioned a while ago that he likes to use I2S from the U12 to the X12, but he also said that he felt that the quality of the HDMI cable made a significant difference.
> 
> I personally tried I2S from the U12 to the X12 with ONE cheap HDMI cable and felt that I preferred going straight to the USB input on the X12. I'm not interested in testing more HDMI cables, though, to see if I can notice improvements.
> 
> Conquerator2 felt the same way as I did about preferring the X12's own USB input over the U12, but I'm not sure if he used I2S.


 
 I've heard similar things. A high quality HDMI patch cable might make a difference, though I've heard very good things about the X12s internal USB card.
  
 Rb2013 has replaced his U12 with the Melodious MX-U8 and says the sound is a big step up. Sadly the I2S connection is RJ45, so you'd need to either buy a custom cable (they are out there), or build your own.


----------



## stuartmc

schopenhauer said:


> I certainly do, Cap'n Stu! One thing I'm wondering about are the so-called macrodynamics of the X12, or its ability to render things like bass slam, punches and kicks, hi-hats etcs. I mean, take it with a grain of salt, but I've read impressions of the ESS9018 that indicate macrodynamics are a bit limp/hollow. That worries me nonetheless. I know the ESS9018 is supposed to be great for plankton, but I also like to fish for larger catch.


 
 Over on the other Gustard thread, I talked a lot about the macrodynamics of the X12 as opposed to the Aune S16 I was comparing it too.   The excellent dynamic capabilities of the X12 was the thing that struck me most in my early hours of listening.  It wasn't just plankton, it was angry Seabass with frickin' laser beams on their heads.  I speculated that the X12 packs this wallup because the designer had built a very robust well regulated power supply and had even separated the digital and analog power supplies with separate transformers.


----------



## stuartmc

politbureau said:


> I've heard similar things. A high quality HDMI patch cable might make a difference, though I've heard very good things about the X12s internal USB card.
> 
> Rb2013 has replaced his U12 with the Melodious MX-U8 and says the sound is a big step up. Sadly the I2S connection is RJ45, so you'd need to either buy a custom cable (they are out there), or build your own.


 
  
 I would give the Melodious unit a try if it had an hmdi connector instead of the RJ45.  I tried coax and aes/ebu between my U12 and X12, but greatly preferred the I2S hdmi connection.  A good hdmi cable certainly did make an audible difference for me.  I ended up with 1/2 meter Pangia silver cable that was pretty inexpensive on Amazon.


----------



## bavinck

So, would we call monoprice hdmi cables good? I have purchased them in the past, and they sure seem like a well made product.


----------



## stuartmc

bavinck said:


> So, would we call monoprice hdmi cables good? I have purchased them in the past, and they sure seem like a well made product.


 
 I compared three different hdmi cables all of which cost under $120 and one no name el cheapo cable.  I could hear differences in all of them, but the inexpensive one was the easiest to distinguish. It lacked body, had a smaller soundstage and a little more glare than the others.  I couldn't tell you how the monoprice would fare, but I think at least OCC copper should be used.


----------



## m0reilly

stuartmc said:


> I would give the Melodious unit a try if it had an hmdi connector instead of the RJ45.  I tried coax and aes/ebu between my U12 and X12, but greatly preferred the I2S hdmi connection.  A good hdmi cable certainly did make an audible difference for me.  I ended up with 1/2 meter Pangia silver cable that was pretty inexpensive on Amazon.


 
 interesting, as i just ordered the pangea hdmi also (1 meter, as from some reviews, the shorter cable was a bit difficult to form in a tight space. i previously used unruly hdmi cables to my plasma only to find the monitors' hdmi socket dislocated because of the lack of flexibility re dense cable). i also purchased a mogami pro aes cable, along with a pangea usb pure silver 1m. i would have forgone 'fancy' cabling, but after noticing an obvious audible difference between an audioquest forest usb and the pangea silver...i thought i had lost my marbles initially, but i actually could hear a difference between usb cables...


----------



## conquerator2

I owned the U12 [Excellent XMOS USB interface] and X12 [the best smoothest Sabre DAC I've heard yet] so far and I think for the price, Gustard is VERY hard to beat. I'd gladly support such a company in the future by buying their reasonably priced products ^_^


----------



## LancerFIN

Yes. Reason says I should have reached "endgame" but still X20 and 'H20' fascinate me. Future will tell if those are worthy upgrades.


----------



## auvgeek

Indeed. It will be very interesting to see pricing and reviews of Gustard's "flagship" offerings. I'm very interested in both. Not sure I want to jump in until some people who have heard the X12/H10 write some reviews. I'll probably try to get the H20 regardless. 
  
 It would also be really neat to see Gustard add an amp and DAC with a smaller footprint to their lineup. Like between Modi/Magni and Bifrost/Lyr. I could see that being a useful size for many people to have at the office where a X12/H10 stack may be infeasible or frowned upon.


----------



## LancerFIN

auvgeek said:


>


 
 Having ~$100 entry level gear is definitely very good for the brand. I don't need numbers to tell that Schiit sells more Magnis and Modis than other gear combined. Those people if they eventually want to move up they are likely to buy from Schiit again. They do stellar job spreading the name around. Also having very good lineup is major reason why Schiit has gotten so far. It's the only brand that comes to mind which has products in each price category from entry to top of the line. Well audio-gd has pretty good line up too.


----------



## SodaBoy

I just use a 3ft Blue Rigger HDMI cable I got from Amazon, it's thick and inflexible but short enough for my needs. It's shielded, sturdy and quite cheap. I got the rest of my interconnects from Ghent Audio, which was also incredibly cheap, and now all my cables are terminated at the right length and it keeps my setup tidy. The new cables also fixed a crackling and popping problem that no amount of messing with buffer sizes would fix, so take that for what you will.
  
 There's a sweet spot for everything though, I spent very little money on interconnects, and had no interest in bespoke Gucci cables. A shielded USB cable with a ferrite core, terminated at the right length was good enough for me, I think Ghent used a Belden cable which is very respectable. I chose Choseal instead of Mogami for the RCA as it was a few dollars cheaper, and I can tell you it was high quality, and loses nothing to the Mogami.
  
 Back 2 Gustard stuff,
  
 I hope they use something better than a volume pot on the H20. If they put a volume pot on it, I'm probably going to go Audio-GD or get off my lazy bum and start building my wire amp. It should be pure class A, and remain in class A up to a decent level of power, with a stepped attenuator. I think I'll definitely get the X20 despite getting the X12 only two months earlier LOL. But given that the analog section is very similar between the X20 and the X12, I wonder how different the two DACs would sound since it's really the analog section that provides most of the flavor differences between DACs. The X20 should have better channel separation though, which should give dat soundstage magic.
  


amleth said:


> If they come out with a matching dual-mono amp like rumoured (H20, I'd assume?), and it's proportionately as good as the H10 seems to be plus has a 4-pin XLR true dual mono out, it sounds like they'll have a pretty compelling budget-high-end option on their hands.
> 
> I just wish they'd consulted with native English speakers over their brand name. Ideally, I prefer my Hi-Fi equipment not to evoke thoughts of goose and custard. They don't even go together, let alone have anything to do with Hi-Fi or any positive associations with it, either. Mmmn, love those custardy mids on the X20. I find the competing Yulong options to be more like créme Anglais, and the price-matched Schiit options are downright pudding-ey. See? No good.
> 
> (And that's going Euro-style and pronouncing it "Goostard" to try and summon at least a little gravitas, because making it rhyme with "custard" is an even worse option. :/ )


 
  
 Lol the Euro-style sounds so nouveau riche, I'm just a dirty peasant tho so I pronounce it like custard. I like the Gustard name tho, its got Gusto man, you got to respect that hustle.


----------



## Schopenhauer

Gustard should also rethink the "wisdom" of a recessed headphone jack for the H20.


----------



## SodaBoy

schopenhauer said:


> Gustard should also rethink the "wisdom" of a recessed headphone jack for the H20.


 


 ^That'd be perfect eh


----------



## auvgeek

Anyone know if the H20 will have a SE output or just balanced? I guess I'm kind of hoping for just balanced because, for whatever reason, it seems to make intuitive sense that it will sound better if it's a balanced topology throughout. (But that's just a guess.) OTOH, that might require that I hang on to the H10 or obtain a separate amp with SE outputs.


----------



## Amleth

lancerfin said:


> It's the only brand that comes to mind which has products in each price category from entry to top of the line. Well audio-gd has pretty good line up too.


 
  
 Also Yulong, if we're thinking Chinese brands.
  


sodaboy said:


> Lol the Euro-style sounds so nouveau riche, I'm just a dirty peasant tho so I pronounce it like custard. I like the Gustard name tho, its got Gusto man, you got to respect that hustle.


 
  
 But the nouveau riche were seen as "dirty peasants" by the landed gentry; they had the ticket price of entry into high society, i.e., money, but not the native upbringing within it required to be accepted and thus were seen by traditionally-monied families as peasants who just happened to have a lot of cash. They were considered pretty handy to marry grudgingly if the family coffers needed a cash injection badly enough, but best avoided at all other times. "Euro-style" pronounciation, with an "u" like in "flute" and an "ard" like in "card" (or possibly "ar" like in "fast")  sounds like _old money_.
  
 I'm just not feeling the "custard"-rhyming, though. It sounds like a combination of the name of some guy that rides around on the back of a Brooklyn garbage truck and the word "retard", neither of which you're likely to associate with pleasant sounds.
  
 Even "Gusto" would be better. All positive associations, and implies the units enthusiastically go about their tasks. If they fix the name and adopt some decent, _style-matched_ front panel designs, they could become a real force in the budget high-end market. All cases the same width for stacking, etc, and looking like they all come from the same product line. They need to consult with a young and hungry design firm or something.
  


auvgeek said:


> Anyone know if the H20 will have a SE output or just balanced? I guess I'm kind of hoping for just balanced because, for whatever reason, it seems to make intuitive sense that it will sound better if it's a balanced topology throughout. (But that's just a guess.) OTOH, that might require that I hang on to the H10 or obtain a separate amp with SE outputs.


 
  
 That's what's rumoured, and nothing else would really make sense, so it seems promising.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

amleth said:


> Also Yulong, if we're thinking Chinese brands.
> 
> 
> But the nouveau riche were seen as "dirty peasants" by the landed gentry; they had the ticket price of entry into high society, i.e., money, but not the native upbringing within it required to be accepted and thus were seen by traditionally-monied families as peasants who just happened to have a lot of cash. They were considered pretty handy to marry grudgingly if the family coffers needed a cash injection badly enough, but best avoided at all other times. "Euro-style" pronounciation, with an "u" like in "flute" and an "ard" like in "card" (or possibly "ar" like in "fast")  sounds like _old money_.
> ...




I don't have time to write at length, but I must say I genuinely like the name "Gustard" and do not find the same negative associations you do with the word.


----------



## ansi

For all those that care about the company name, it is actually pronounced like "custard" with a G. The name was given to them by a friend who they assumed was good in English, from their Chinese name (Geside). Yes, I asked them about the name but left it out of my report earlier. I just didn't have the heart to tell them it sounds dumb.


----------



## Amleth

liu junyuan said:


> I don't have time to write at length, but I must say I genuinely like the name "Gustard" and do not find the same negative associations you do with the word.


 
  
 What is it you like about it? Do you still like it in light of ansi confirming it rhymes with "custard"?
  


ansi said:


> For all those that care about the company name, it is actually pronounced like "custard" with a G. The name was given to them by a friend who they assumed was good in English, from their Chinese name (Geside). Yes, I asked them about the name but left it out of my report earlier. I just didn't have the heart to tell them it sounds dumb.


 
  
 I assume the Chinese version is pronouned something like "Geh-see-deh"? Or maybe "Geh-shi-deh" (some of the romanisation systems can be pretty treacherous)?
  
 If so, "Guest" or "Gusto" are both closer in sound, and I think better sounding as a brand. Warming to "Gusto" particularly.
  
 I just don't see how the "ard" part got in there from a native English speaker (or how "geh" became "guh", for that matter). I guess the original Chinese sounds a lot different to what I assume?
  
 Although really, if they weren't going to use their Chinese name in the west, they should have made up a brand totally from scratch instead of limiting themselves to something that sounds "similar". (And it's not even very similar at that, as the only sound really in common seems to be the "g" at the start.)
  
 It'd be awesome if they let Head-Fi vote on or suggest new options. I bet they could parlay an open naming competition into a ****load of publicity. Not likely to happen, though. :c


----------



## Liu Junyuan

amleth said:


> What is it you like about it? Do you still like it in light of ansi confirming it rhymes with "custard"?
> 
> 
> I assume the Chinese version is pronouned something like "Geh-see-deh"? Or maybe "Geh-shi-deh" (some of the romanisation systems can be pretty treacherous)?
> ...




Yes, I disagree with ansi that it sounds dumb, but this is all subjective. I think you are trying to find reasons why the name is objectively unsavory by appealing to socio-economic genealogies and etymologies, producing the illusion of consensus in how it ought to be pronounced. I do not think of it in the aristocratic, landed-gentry sense of goostard that you anachronistically reimposed on a name that ironically did not take much thought at all and which has zero anchorage in European contexts. 

It would be more convincing to consult the Oxford English Dictionary, perhaps, which indicates the word had early modern origins and exists as a variant of "bustard", an alternative usage for a kind of fowle presumably we would call "goose." But since the English translator may not have been aware of this real etymology within the English tongue, unlike your new richish speculations associating the name basely with the pejoratively inflected "retard," I considered making sense of what gooses mean in Chinese literary memory. 

Gooses are ubiquitous in Chinese poetry and painting. Depending on the artist and dynasty, the device of the goose obviously served different functions. Yet what seems common to most early deployments of the goose is its association with either the experience of exile (itinerant wandering into foreign lands) or with a carrier of messages (like the wing-footed Mercury from the Western antique tradition). These associations became especially popularized in the late Han wars with the northern nomadic Xiongnu kingdoms as well as the venerable Tang Dynasty poet Du Fu. 

All of this would be a better way of approaching the word than speculations on European attitudes toward middle-class dialects that accompanied the bourgeois rise of mid-17th-18th century mercantile capitalism. Yet actually even these speculations into Chinese usages seem baseless given the arbitrary nature of the appellation "Gustard" that Geside's English-speaking friend endorsed. 

The "e" in pinyin sounds like "uh" in English. That is probably why the initial "e" in Geside became the "u" in "Gustard." Unfortunately for you perhaps, this does not take the "oo" as in goose that you have wittily attributed to the outdated elite in Europe. Instead, it might be how a "retard" of the new rich wound say it according to such decontextualized, ahistoric, though admittedly fascinating standards your analysis of "Gustard" attempts to apply.


----------



## abartels

liu junyuan said:


> Yes, I disagree with ansi that it sounds dumb, but this is all subjective. I think you are trying to find reasons why the name is objectively unsavory by appealing to socio-economic genealogies and etymologies, producing the illusion of consensus in how it ought to be pronounced. I do not think of it in the aristocratic, landed-gentry sense of goostard that you anachronistically reimposed on a name that ironically did not take much thought at all and which has zero anchorage in European contexts.
> 
> It would be more convincing to consult the Oxford English Dictionary, perhaps, which indicates the word had early modern origins and exists as a variant of "bustard", an alternative usage for a kind of fowle presumably we would call "goose." But since the English translator may not have been aware of this real etymology within the English tongue, unlike your new richish speculations associating the name basely with the pejoratively inflected "retard," I considered making sense of what gooses mean in Chinese literary memory.
> 
> ...


 
  
 For me, ( I'm Dutch) Gustard sounds very French and to my ears it sounds good.
 Further I think the brandname is NOT sounding dumb or strange, and even it would, it's not for us to judge.
  
 Regards


----------



## abartels

Btw, is there any news about X20?


----------



## Liu Junyuan

Do you have the X12?


----------



## abartels

liu junyuan said:


> Do you have the X12?


 
  
 No i don't have an X12, I have a CS4398 based upsampling dac but want to upgrade to High Quality DSD Dac within a few months.
 That is why i was so interested in X20, i opt-in for the first 200 batch btw
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## Amleth

liu junyuan said:


> Yes, I disagree with ansi that it sounds dumb, but this is all subjective.


  
 Well, of course it is, when you consider whether you or I or any individual like it personally. But it's not about that when choosing a brand. You try to pick something that that is likely to appeal to as many individuals as possible, or at the very least, avoids actively repelling any. That means being aware of local etymological connotations, and indeed, exploiting them. It all translates to real sales levels. Geside were aware of this to the point that they felt it was better not to use their local name internationally, but even if they have chosen a different brand for international use, they haven't exactly put much effort into it by ansi's account.
  
  


> I think you are trying to find reasons why the name is objectively unsavory by appealing to socio-economic genealogies and etymologies, producing the illusion of consensus in how it ought to be pronounced.


  
 I think you're looking at my reply to another poster who said that pronouncing "Gustard" with European-style vowels sounded "nouveau riche", and reading way too much into it. I replied that that style sounded more like old money, because I imagine a "nouveau riche" approach to branding would be more obvious, like "Invincible" or "Perfect Amplifier Co" or something. Gustard (as "Goostard") sounds like a generic European family name, which is more traditional for a business name of that period.
  
 And nothing I ever said tried to establish any sort of consensus, illusory or otherwise, let alone equate consensus with reality. I don't know how you got there. I pointed out the ambiguity in my initial post about the name, another user replied that they were wondering which was correct also, and then that was the sum total of discussion on the topic until a while later ansi confirmed which version was intended.
  
  


> I do not think of it in the aristocratic, landed-gentry sense of goostard that you anachronistically reimposed on a name that ironically did not take much thought at all and which has zero anchorage in European contexts.


  
 Neither do I. I thought of it in terms of the ambiguous pronounciation, and of the two alternatives, I preferred the one the option which sounded like it was from some unidentified European language, rather than the one that sounds like a gluggy bowl of dessert goo.
  
  


> It would be more convincing to consult the Oxford English Dictionary, perhaps, which indicates the word had early modern origins and exists as a variant of "bustard", an alternative usage for a kind of fowle presumably we would call "goose."


  
 Bustards look nothing like geese, but I'm not sure why you've brought that up anyway. Until you mentioned that "geside" apparently means goose (I thought "Geside" was an abbreviation built from their full company name in Chinese; doesn't the "de' part come from "Electricity"?), the only other mention of "goose" was that _one possible pronouciation_ of "Gustard", and one that we now know to be wrong, sounded a bit like the English word goose. Hardly a reason to go looking up its etymology.
  
  


> But since the English translator may not have been aware of this real etymology within the English tongue, unlike your new richish speculations associating the name basely with the pejoratively inflected "retard,"


  
 Basely? "Retard" and "'tard" have been colloquial insults for decades. As a noun, the word doesn't _have_ a non-pejorative use anymore, and as a verb, it's pronounced differently. If you're manufacturing a word from scratch to represent your brand to an English-speaking market, local language sensitivity would suggest avoiding the use of the letters "tard" together unless as part of an existing word. Maybe it doesn't exactly jump out but it will have a subconscious effect on some percentage of consumers.
  
  


> I considered making sense of what gooses mean in Chinese literary memory.


  
 Again, without knowing that meaning was associated with the original brand, there's no way to recover it from the English version.
  
  


> Gooses are ubiquitous in Chinese poetry and painting. Depending on the artist and dynasty, the device of the goose obviously served different functions. Yet what seems common to most early deployments of the goose is its association with either the experience of exile (itinerant wandering into foreign lands) or with a carrier of messages (like the wing-footed Mercury from the Western antique tradition). These associations became especially popularized in the late Han wars with the northern nomadic Xiongnu kingdoms as well as the venerable Tang Dynasty poet Du Fu.


  
 It's interesting that, now that ansi has cleared up the ambiguity, we know that the correct way of saying "Gustard" is the version that rhymes with custard, and the _not_ version that evokes geese. Strangely ironic, but then the "goose" sound only came into it by coincidence, anyway, not design.
  
  


> All of this would be a better way of approaching the word than speculations on European attitudes toward middle-class dialects that accompanied the bourgeois rise of mid-17th-18th century mercantile capitalism.


  
 It was originally approached by analysing how "Gustard" sounds within the context of the English language, and thus other English words, as this would be the design criteria for a brand aimed at an English-speaking market. I leaned more towards the alternative pronounciation style for aesthetic reasons, and because I felt it had more appeal as a true "International" brand with its European flavour (though it quite likely sounds silly in other languages too, just by law of averages). Turns out that's not the officially "correct" way, though. The fact is, however, that either option is pretty clumsy-sounding in English, and sadly, the correct way more-so than the alternative.
  
 The whole "class attitudes" part stems from one reply I made adding context to another person's comment that you seem to have latched onto for some inexplicable reason, ignoring all the rhyming word element discourse or the original point of the whole thing which was to clear up the ambiguity and find which was the right way to actually _say_ the name.
  
  


> Yet actually even these speculations into Chinese usages seem baseless given the arbitrary nature of the appellation "Gustard" that Gisede's English-speaking friend endorsed.


  
 They do.
  
  


> The "e" in pinyin sounds like "uh" in English. That is probably why the initial "e" in Geside became the "u" in "Gustard." Unfortunately for you perhaps, this does not take the "oo" as in goose that you have wittily attributed to the outdated elite in Europe. Instead, it might be how a "retard" of the new rich wound say it according to such decontextualized, ahistoric, though admittedly fascinating standards your analysis of "Gustard" attempts to apply.


  
 You seem to be taking this really personally for some reason.
  
 You also wrote a hell of a lot without answering the main question I asked, about _what_ it is you like about the name. I didn't ask if you agreed with ansi that it was "dumb"; you'd already made that much clear. I asked if, in light of us now knowing the "custard" way of saying it is the right way, whether you liked that _particular_ version of the name, because up to that point, there were two pronounciations floating around to choose from, and the one you liked could have been either, or both.
  
 I've gone on at length about what I dislike about both versions, but you haven't expanded on why you like either.
  


abartels said:


> For me, ( I'm Dutch) Gustard sounds very French and to my ears it sounds good.


  
 Which version sounds French to you, though? The one rhyming with "custard", or the one said like "goostard". I preferred the unidentifiable French/Italian/Spanish vowelage going on there, but it's apparently not how they meant it to be said. Gustard-like-custard doesn't sound very French to me personally, unless you work the "ar" to make it rhyme with "petard", I guess.
  


> Further I think the brandname is NOT sounding dumb or strange, and even it would, it's not for us to judge.


  
 Since brands are created to sell a product to a market, as the intended market, it is specifically for _us_ to judge the efficacy of the brand, even if only by choosing to buy it or not. Whatever they call themselves when marketing to their home market isn't for us to judge; we have no context and are not the intended target, anyway. When selling to us, though, the only thing that matters is what we (collectively, as an overall bias) think. By all accounts, Gustard make some excellent value, well-performing products, so I personally feel sad to see them sold under a brand I feel will quite likely see them reach fewer customers. The only "dog" I have in this fight is wanting to see them succeed as much as possible, at least as long as they continue their "high value for money at reasonable price points" model. I hope no other Gustard fans will take my attempts at constructive criticism of a marketing choice made by the company that built some of their their stuff as a personal attack on them directly. I think the name will definitely have _some_ effect on Gustard's ultimate market penetration in the west.


----------



## Hibuckhobby

At the end of the day, this whole discussion is rather pointless.  First of all, the opinions of those who a part of the Gustard thread likely reflects very little about whether or not
 the product will succeed in the world marketplace.  The idea that one likes or does not like a name borders on silly.  For those "new" to the market, very few components of Chinese
 manufacture are well known in the first place.  Among audio snobs (they know who they are) the fact that it is of Chinese manufacture tends to put it in a secondary catagory.
 Only in the last decade (or less) have their electronics (whether knock offs or new designs) started to be recognized as viable contenders and even then will only be of interest to
 those who are looking for a bang for the buck that is predicated in part on lower wages and different working conditions.
  
 Secondly, if one buys an audio product or does not because they happen to like the sound of the brand name, they are using the wrong selection criteria.  Gustard is a niche
 manufacturer in a niche market.  Those who think that the euphony of the name would change that have not considered that the real thing that will sell these products is
 that they sound exceptionally good at their price point which actually lowers price at which diminishing returns sets in.
 YMMV,
 Hibuck....


----------



## Schopenhauer

amleth said:


> You seem to be taking this really personally for some reason.


 
 Irony!


----------



## abartels

Maybe it's a good idea to let it go, please? 

Keep on topic if possible, like this thread too much to see it closed,,,, 

Just my 5 cents


----------



## Liu Junyuan

LOL. I definitely will let it go. I initially was surprised that people would take issue with the name in the first place, but when I saw some pseudo-elaborate arguments aiming to cast "Gustard" as a somehow objectively obscene onomatopoeia for gooses and "retards," especially when I sincerely did not instinctually share these associations, I felt compelled to participate. 

All is good on my end. Let us enjoy the music, shall we? I hope you are enjoying your Gustard gear as much as I am.


----------



## stuartmc

abartels said:


> Maybe it's a good idea to let it go, please?
> 
> Keep on topic if possible, like this thread too much to see it closed,,,,
> 
> Just my 5 cents


 
  
 Schopy and Capt. Stu will be tag team wrestling you officious interlopers in 3, 2, 1........ LOL!    Actually, I really enjoy the passion and enthusiasm you guys are bringing to the table. I like spirited debate, so long as it remains respectful.  The crew of the SS Gustard is a knowledgeable and welcoming bunch and all that is required to reach "swabbie" status is to own some Gustard gear and be willing to share your experiences like you were sharing them with your brothers and sisters. So far, we haven't had to make anyone walk the plank, let alone keelhauled them.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

stuartmc said:


> Schopy and Capt. Stu will be tag team wrestling you officious interlopers in 3, 2, 1........ LOL!    Actually, I really enjoy the passion and enthusiasm you guys are bringing to the table. I like spirited debate, so long as it remains respectful.  The crew of the SS Gustard is a knowledgeable and welcoming bunch and all that is required to reach "swabbie" status is to own some Gustard gear and be willing to share your experiences like you were sharing them with your brothers and sisters. So far, we haven't had to make anyone walk the plank, let alone keelhauled them.




+1


----------



## m0reilly

holy WTH!!! upsampling 16/44.1 to dsd64 via perfect bit ripped files...man! listening to 4hero 'remixes' volume one...hotter than heck in a hand basket! kicking my ***** up and down the block! u12 to x12via i2s/foobar dsd upsample on the fly...freakin' wild and awesome! gustard FTW!!!


----------



## m0reilly

if you got 256 files, don't be shy, as this combo seems to do 256 (despite the limit stated online). try it in your player of choice. the x12 shows 256 playback (via driver settings) in your favorite player/x12 readout


----------



## SodaBoy

Lol I don't understand the fuss about the name. I find Gustard, which rhymes with custard, (thus affirming my peasant pronunciation) to be quite endearing. I mean if I am cool with Schiit Audio, I'm cool with anything.
  
 The only thing I'm interested in now is when will the X20 show up. May? Late May? June? Or even later? The balanced amp too, but that's far off in Q3-Q4.


----------



## Amleth

sodaboy said:


> I mean if I am cool with Schiit Audio, I'm cool with anything.


 
  
 Schiit's schtiick is a deliberate design decision, not an accident. It generates brand curiousity, and it appeals to particular market segments for different reasons. All other factors the same, I'm sure they'd still be successful if they were called "Schaefer", but I'd be surprised if they'd have done as well as they have under the Schiit banner.


----------



## Lorspeaker

this word kept coming to my mind when i read "Gustard"... _GESTALT_  *:*  a structure, configuration, or pattern of physical, biological, or psychological phenomena 
 so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable by summation of its parts


----------



## Liu Junyuan

lorspeaker said:


> this word kept coming to my mind when i read "Gustard"...
> 
> _GESTALT_
> 
> ...




Nice. 

Also Gustatory or Gustation, which recalls the palate--the sense of taste.


----------



## Utopia

For me, Gustard makes me think of  Gustav or Gustaf - the name of many Scandinavian kings.


----------



## lukeap69

For me Gustard makes me think of an excellent amp with reasonable price and a giant performance.


----------



## Lohb

Brand name rolling now ?....saving $500 on a similar grade amp towards another set of headphones springs to mind !


----------



## bavinck

Considering how good it sounds they could name it ***** for all I care


----------



## lukeap69

Yeah, and I have 2 Schiit amps!


----------



## Amleth

lukeap69 said:


> Yeah, and I have 2 Schiit amps!


 

 "Schiit" is a good brand name, though. Some will find negative associations with the name but this is purely intentional, and within its target demographics those associations flip and become positive, from "schiitty" to "da schiit". It's designed to push the product before you even know anything else about it.
  
 As far as making up new brands go, I like "Gestalt" and "Gusto!" for pure-English markets, from the earlier suggestions.
  
 In the "Schiitty" name style, I think "Effin" would work as a fun brand. Looks innocent and fey in isolation, but the products pretty-much name themselves, even if you just name them extremely generically. The "Effin Portable", "Effin DAC", "Effin Digital Interface", etc. Also allows more flamboyant options like the "Effin Marvelous", the "Effin Amazing", and so on, or you can alliterate for flavour like "Effin Epic", "Effin Extreme", Effin Exceptional", etc. Lots of ways to play with it, and you don't need a whole Norse pantheon sub-theme to help stop people thinking about toilets.


----------



## lukeap69

That's an effin nice post mate! made me LOL.


----------



## m0reilly

effin A tweety!!!


----------



## SodaBoy

ansi said:


> For everyone waiting for my report, apologies for not having it up yet - I've been really busy and on the road virtually the whole last two weeks. To make up for the delay, here's the X20 prototype for your viewing pleasure. ES9018 for each channel @Benny-x


 

 I just confirmed with Shenzhenaudio that the Gustard X20 will be released this June.


----------



## knightskid

Will there be new amp coming up as well?


----------



## SodaBoy

Quote:


knightskid said:


> Will there be new amp coming up as well?


 
  
 Yeah, a balanced amp coming Q3-Q4 according to Ansi, which could be anywhere from July to December. Don't even have a name for it so we just call it the H20. I didn't ask about the amp since I doubt the retail channels would have a firm date for something that far out.


----------



## knightskid

sodaboy said:


> Quote:
> 
> Yeah, a balanced amp coming Q3-Q4 according to Ansi, which could be anywhere from July to December. Don't even have a name for it so we just call it the H20. I didn't ask about the amp since I doubt the retail channels would have a firm date for something that far out.


 
 Ok, then i will probably order the H10 as i believes that the next amp will be priced much higher than this H10, just that the price of H10 will drop due to new amp coming out.


----------



## Lorspeaker

sodaboy said:


> I just confirmed with Shenzhenaudio that the Gustard X20 will be released this June.





wats the indicative price...


----------



## SodaBoy

lorspeaker said:


> wats the indicative price...


 

 They didn't have price info.


----------



## money4me247

abartels said:


> No i don't have an X12, I have a CS4398 based upsampling dac but want to upgrade to High Quality DSD Dac within a few months.
> That is why i was so interested in X20, i opt-in for the first 200 batch btw
> 
> Regards,
> Alex


 
@abartels - how did you opt in for the x20 already & do you have any idea what the price point is? thanks.


----------



## abartels

money4me247 said:


> @abartels - how did you opt in for the x20 already & do you have any idea what the price point is? thanks.


 
  
 Member ANSI gave us this opportunity. No info about price point.


----------



## genclaymore

I hope it affordable but i doubt it would be. Atleast when it comes out the X12 should drop in price.


----------



## Shmuel

Can anyone fill me in on what the X20 is?
If with amp section, will it possibly be a balanced H10?

Thanks!


----------



## SodaBoy

Quote:


shmuel said:


> Can anyone fill me in on what the X20 is?
> If with amp section, will it possibly be a balanced H10?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 X20 is a dedicated DAC, it has no headphone amp section. A separate balanced amp is coming later this year. IMO, discrete components are just the way I like it, maximum savings and flexibility for the consumer.
  


genclaymore said:


> I hope it affordable but i doubt it would be. Atleast when it comes out the X12 should drop in price.


 
  
 I reckon the X20 will be ~$1,000 or lower. The LKS MH-DA003 is dual mono ES9018 and it's around $1300 right now, frequently found for $1100-1200 on sale. There is another dual mono ES9018, the YSDZ DA-03, which looks like an all through-hole DIY job that is selling for $1000. As you can see, it's getting quite crowded in the segment.
  
 The X12 is probably the cheapest reputable ES9018 DAC, I don't think they have any room to drop prices on it. The X20 isn't meant to replace the X12 I think, it's meant to be a step above. I mean currently you can get a X12+H10 stack for less than a typical ~$1000 Sabre DAC like Mytek, Yulong, Matrix, or Lavry.


----------



## Shmuel

Thanks Sodaboy. 
Very interesting times.


----------



## ansi

genclaymore said:


> I hope it affordable but i doubt it would be. Atleast when it comes out the X12 should drop in price.


 
  
 Nope, X12 won't drop in price. If you are planning to wait until X20 to buy an X12, don't.


----------



## ansi

sodaboy said:


> Quote:
> 
> X20 is a dedicated DAC, it has no headphone amp section. A separate balanced amp is coming later this year. IMO, discrete components are just the way I like it, maximum savings and flexibility for the consumer.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry guys, I totally forgot that I know the price. RMB 4,280 for the one with USB. That's around USD 690 so you were a bit off. Or you can get the one without USB for RMB 3,980 which is USD 640.
  
 Oh, and it's coming out next month. Not really sure about the date exactly.
  
 Edit: X20+H10 for $960.


----------



## SodaBoy

ansi said:


> Sorry guys, I totally forgot that I know the price. RMB 4,280 for the one with USB. That's around USD 690 so you were a bit off. Or you can get the one without USB for RMB 3,980 which is USD 640.
> 
> Oh, and it's coming out next month. Not really sure about the date exactly.


 
 Thanks a lot Ansi. You and hgpesemaj are like our inside guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Personally, I thought it would be around ~USD 800 but I felt it was better to be on the safe side. What I see so far is pretty incredible at this price point though. It seems to me that they are selling a statement product on slim margins to build their brand.
  
 I hope they send a rear panel photo, and higher resolution photos of the internals to our most informed insider friends 
  
 I also hope Gustard won't troll us by putting the H20 balanced in on the left side when the X20 balanced out is on the far right lol. I'm not even sure if they will call it H20 actually, since everyone will confuse it for H2O or something. "Where can I bai dat gustard water doe?"


----------



## ansi

sodaboy said:


> Thanks a lot Ansi. You and hgpesemaj are like our inside guys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 There are a few things that factor in to the price of Gustard products, low margin is one, but they're also clever with sourcing and manufacturing. As a result their product time-to-market is very long but the price point they can sell it is very low. You can do that with high-end audio since hey, what's good now is going to be good years from now. In other businesses like computers or mobile phones you just can't do that.
  
 By the way at no point has Gustard said the balanced amp will be called H20. It's what head-fiers keep calling it. There's still time to influence the design of the amp so if you guys do have any suggestions I'll pass them forward for sure.


----------



## Noodlz

Man i've been reading this thread and the original H10 thread. Totally sold on getting a gustard now, just a matter of which and when lol. 
  
 Did want to ask a question about the X12 though, if im connecting via toslink, does it make sense to have the U12 still? i'm assuming toslink will sound better than USB right?
  
 Btw i personally love the name. (i pronounced it Gu- Star- d) Also Gustard H20 (aka H-2-O / gustard water) sounds awesome =)


----------



## SodaBoy

ansi said:


> There are a few things that factor in to the price of Gustard products, low margin is one, but they're also clever with sourcing and manufacturing. As a result their product time-to-market is very long but the price point they can sell it is very low. You can do that with high-end audio since hey, what's good now is going to be good years from now. In other businesses like computers or mobile phones you just can't do that.
> 
> By the way at no point has Gustard said the balanced amp will be called H20. It's what head-fiers keep calling it. There's still time to influence the design of the amp so if you guys do have any suggestions I'll pass them forward for sure.


 

 I really want to see an attenuator volume control, preferably a relay attenuator. Audio-GD has shown that this can be accomplished at $399 USD, offering excellent channel balance. I want the amplifier to be a fully balanced discrete Class A design with less emphasis on sheer output power and more on quality. Headphones are becoming increasingly efficient, and I don't want to pay extra for the ability to push 10 watts into 32 ohms. The new amp should have the same dimensions as the X20, and stack well with it.
  
 I trust Gustard on the implementation though, the only thing up in the air is their choice of volume control. Far too many amps in the $500-2000 range are using volume pots, with only a few noteworthy exceptions such as Audio-GD, and the Schiit Ragnarok. Seeing volume pots on $1500+ amps like the BHA-1 and Taurus MKII is just unforgivable.
  
  


noodlz said:


> Man i've been reading this thread and the original H10 thread. Totally sold on getting a gustard now, just a matter of which and when lol.
> 
> Did want to ask a question about the X12 though, if im connecting via toslink, does it make sense to have the U12 still? i'm assuming toslink will sound better than USB right?
> 
> Btw i personally love the name. (i pronounced it Gu- Star- d) Also Gustard H20 (aka H-2-O / gustard water) sounds awesome =)


 

 I think the U12 is a pretty cheap buy and will be a good improvement, but it's hardly necessary. With toslink you will avoid ground loop issues but you will add a little interface jitter and be limited in sample rate to 192khz, which is more than enough anyways. The interface jitter won't be an issue since it will be reclocked anyways. On the other hand, buying an expensive Gucci external reclocker, and then connecting with a non-i2s interface is a big no-no lol. The X12 and the U12 have a compatible i2s connection though, so I would use that.
  
 I feel though, overall the input section on the X12 has definitely been an area where it has been built to a price by necessity, and the U12 does much to alleviate that.
  
 Personally, I'd wait for the X20 since it's essentially the same price of the X12 + U12, and will very likely do better than the combo. They really paid attention to the input section this time as I speculated that they would months ago. I think with the X20, an external USB interface will no longer be of benefit and would actually degrade performance. Jitter performance will be very good even with the Chinese TCXOs. With a few clock mods it can get even better, but when jitter is better than -120 db (barring jitter spikes), I wonder if it really even matters.


----------



## icebrain1

I heard an h10 in a meet over here, and I was pretty blown away. It sounded better (for my taste) than the Lyr2 and even amps which cost multiples of the h10. 

Im currently using he-400s powered by a sciit vali, i was originally planning on a lyr2 but after I heard the h10 I fell in love with it. 

Just somthing I'm wandering I only realy tested it with the he-400s, and it realy brought out the mids (which I prefer). How will it perform with other driver types?

Ps, I couldn't find any info on the web saying how much power the h10 can supply to different ohm HPs any one got a clue?


----------



## Lorspeaker

GUSTARD H10 High-current Discrete Class A output Stage Headphone Amplifier


----------



## Noodlz

@SodaBoy Thanks for the tips / clarification. Just gave in and ordered the H10 from ebay, and will wait to get the X20 later =)


----------



## icebrain1

lorspeaker said:


> GUSTARD H10 High-current Discrete Class A output Stage Headphone Amplifier


 
 Alright thanks I'll repost their.


----------



## Noodlz

Got a question for you guys who have the X12 / U12 here. I'm waiting for the X20 to drop, does it make sense to buy a Schitt Wyrd USB cleaner? my current DACs can certainly use some usb signal cleaning, but i'm wondering if you guys who have the X12 / U12 feel like you would need something like the Schitt wyrd? Will the X12/U12 help clean up the signal? Debating if its worth buying right now.
  
_**i should mention that my computer outputs a ton of crap signal noise and spikes, which is reduced significantly when i use a y cable + battery connected to my iphone / ipad instead. _


----------



## BassDigger

Gustare, apparently is Italian for taste, or enjoying a flavour. So, maybe a 'Gustard' is someone with good taste. That would work, for me.
  
 Using toslink, although shunned by many for being inferior to spdif, should have advantages, especially if you've an effective reclocking component feeding the dac. As mentioned, it electrically isolates the computer from the replay equipment; that can only be a good thing.


----------



## SodaBoy

noodlz said:


> Got a question for you guys who have the X12 / U12 here. I'm waiting for the X20 to drop, does it make sense to buy a Schitt Wyrd USB cleaner? my current DACs can certainly use some usb signal cleaning, but i'm wondering if you guys who have the X12 / U12 feel like you would need something like the Schitt wyrd? Will the X12/U12 help clean up the signal? Debating if its worth buying right now.
> 
> _**i should mention that my computer outputs a ton of crap signal noise and spikes, which is reduced significantly when i use a y cable + battery connected to my iphone / ipad instead. _


 
 The U12 does not use USB bus power, it only needs the 5v for the USB handshake to turn on. The only concern for some would be the polluted ground, but the Wyrd does not isolate the ground. I don't know about the X20 since it's not even released yet, but I doubt it isolates the USB since high speed isolators are expensive. On the X12+U12, and I'm not hearing any ground loop, background is dead silent even when the computer is under heavy use. When the USB implementation is poor, people can often hear noise whenever they do something mundane such as moving the mouse. I wouldn't worry about it yet, don't drop money on something unless you need it.


----------



## Noodlz

Ok very cool~ i'll just wait for now then. Thanks @SodaBoy !


----------



## GioF71

noodlz said:


> Got a question for you guys who have the X12 / U12 here. I'm waiting for the X20 to drop, does it make sense to buy a Schitt Wyrd USB cleaner? my current DACs can certainly use some usb signal cleaning, but i'm wondering if you guys who have the X12 / U12 feel like you would need something like the Schitt wyrd? Will the X12/U12 help clean up the signal? Debating if its worth buying right now.
> 
> _**i should mention that my computer outputs a ton of crap signal noise and spikes, which is reduced significantly when i use a y cable + battery connected to my iphone / ipad instead. _




I have the schiit wyrd with the u12-x12-h10 stack.
It works fine altought I did not perform any test without the wyrd.
Nevertheless this little device made a previous interface I had finally work, well sort of: I ended up returning it. Won't mention the brand but I am very tempted.
Such interface wouldn't work at all above 48kHz when connected directly to my pc (while other usb dacs and interfaces are working just fine even without the wyrd).

Even if the u12 does not need power from the usb bus, there still is the reclocking feature. AFAIK even with async interfaces, the better the source signal, the better the overall result.

Slightly off topic, but still concerning the u12 and the x12, today I am adding a new hdmi cable from the italian brand 'ricable' to replace a very standard hdmi tv cable.


----------



## GioF71

bassdigger said:


> Gustare, apparently is Italian for taste, or enjoying a flavour. So, maybe a 'Gustard' is someone with good taste. That would work, for me.
> 
> Using toslink, although shunned by many for being inferior to spdif, should have advantages, especially if you've an effective reclocking component feeding the dac. As mentioned, it electrically isolates the computer from the replay equipment; that can only be a good thing.




hello, I am from Italy.
I don't think the word 'gustare', whose meaning you explained correctly, has anything to do with the name 'Gustard', sorry


----------



## GioF71

holy cow! cancelled the post by mistake! will write again when at home!

edit: seems I did not cancel it.


----------



## GioF71

giof71 said:


> I have the schiit wyrd with the u12-x12-h10 stack.
> It works fine altought I did not perform any test without the wyrd.
> Nevertheless this little device made a previous interface I had finally work, well sort of: I ended up returning it. Won't mention the brand but I am very tempted.
> Such interface wouldn't work at all above 48kHz when connected directly to my pc (while other usb dacs and interfaces are working just fine even without the wyrd).
> ...


 
  
 tried the cable! It seems to be quite better than the generic hdmi cable I had.
 Of course it may be placebo, but at a first listen, I like the set-up a bit more. It seems to deliver more detail.
  
 The hp is a Sennheiser HD 650.


----------



## DreamKing

bassdigger said:


> Gustare, apparently is Italian for taste, or enjoying a flavour. So, maybe a 'Gustard' is someone with good taste. That would work, for me.
> 
> *Using toslink, although shunned by many for being inferior to spdif,* should have advantages, especially if you've an effective reclocking component feeding the dac. As mentioned, it electrically isolates the computer from the replay equipment; that can only be a good thing.


 
  
 I haven't seen such shunning but I wouldn't understand it either. Is this just based on aesthetic preferences? Toslink sends a S/PDIF signal. The signal being sent is the same, whether it be coaxial/RCA or toslink/fibre optic.


----------



## SodaBoy

dreamking said:


> I haven't seen such shunning but I wouldn't understand it either. Is this just based on aesthetic preferences? Toslink sends a S/PDIF signal. The signal being sent is the same, whether it be coaxial/RCA or toslink/fibre optic.


 

 The Toslink interface adds around 200 psecs of interface jitter, but offers opto isolation which will eliminate ground loop issues. I don't remember the USB 2.0 jitter spec, but I think it went up into the nanoseconds, which by comparison makes 200 psec less significant than it seems. This interface jitter will be reclocked by low noise XOs through any competent modern audio input interface.
  
 A bit OT but I do feel that even the best Chinese TCXOs are a bit marginal for the application. Admittedly Gustard does use the highest quality clocks in its price range, I have seen $1500 DACs use the same or worse. I looked at the new Yulong DA8II (version 2 basically) and they upgraded the MCLK to a CCHD-950 from the original Chinese TCXO, and the price jumped like $150 USD, that should tell you how much "features" cost in the audio world.


----------



## DreamKing

sodaboy said:


> The Toslink interface adds around 200 psecs of interface jitter, *but offers opto isolation which will eliminate ground loop issues*. I don't remember the USB 2.0 jitter spec, but I think it went up into the nanoseconds, which by comparison makes 200 psec less significant than it seems. *This interface jitter will be reclocked by low noise XOs through any competent modern audio input interface.*
> 
> A bit OT but I do feel that even the best Chinese TCXOs are a bit marginal for the application*. Admittedly Gustard does use the highest quality clocks in its price range*, I have seen $1500 DACs use the same or worse. I looked at the new Yulong DA8II (version 2 basically) and they upgraded the MCLK to a CCHD-957 from the original Chinese TCXO, and the price jumped like $150 USD, that should tell you how much "features" cost in the audio world.


 
  
 Yes, so in the end it will be inaudible through any decent source. The optical interface has matured enough, audible differences are down to the component and not the cable. The old "limited Toslink" arguments some people erroneously have don't hold up today. These days toslink can sound better than coaxial and vice versa. It's all up to the implementation as they are indiscernible all things being equal in ABX testing. I have seen the aesthetic arguments (some RCA interconnects locking in better than some Toslink interconnects). That's the only subjective but tangible difference raised in in the argument.


----------



## BassDigger

giof71 said:


> hello, I am from Italy.
> I don't think the word 'gustare', whose meaning you explained correctly, has anything to do with the name 'Gustard', sorry


 
  
 Hi, I wasn't implying that there's any basis in fact; Gustard is a chosen name, not an already existing word.
 I was just suggesting a possible (positive) perception of this new word: a person with good taste.
 Remember: language is an ever evolving phenomenon.
  
 Maybe you could help with our quest to define the name....?
  


dreamking said:


> I haven't seen such shunning but I wouldn't understand it either. Is this just based on aesthetic preferences? Toslink sends a S/PDIF signal. The signal being sent is the same, whether it be coaxial/RCA or toslink/fibre optic.


 
  
 Where have you been? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I think that the main problem/argument is the additional change of signal transfer technology; it requires changing from electrical to optical, and back again. Additional processes and components are not conducive to keeping the original signal intact.
 But then, it has its advantages, which is why it's something that I advocate.


----------



## SodaBoy

dreamking said:


> Yes, so in the end it will be inaudible through any decent source. The optical interface has matured enough, audible differences are down to the component and not the cable. The old "limited Toslink" arguments some people erroneously have don't hold up today. These days toslink can sound better than coaxial and vice versa. It's all up to the implementation as they are indiscernible all things being equal in ABX testing. I have seen the aesthetic arguments (some RCA interconnects locking in better than some Toslink interconnects) but that's the only subjective, tangible difference raised in in the argument.


 
 Well Toslink is limited to around 192khz sample rate. This might matter if you do heavy oversampling software side like the HQPlayer crowd. Inputting higher than 192khz is not very advisable on ES9018 implementations, since current XOs simply cannot handle high sample rates such as 352.8khz and 384khz with the sabre OSF enabled.


----------



## DreamKing

sodaboy said:


> Well Toslink is limited to around 192khz sample rate. This might matter if you do heavy oversampling software side like the HQPlayer crowd. Inputting higher than 192khz is not very advisable on ES9018 implementations, since current XOs simply cannot handle high input rates such as 352.8khz and 384khz with the sabre OSF enabled.


 
  
 My point pertains to just optical and coaxial which have the same sample rate limitations. And you can imagine what I think of stuff like higher than 192khz sample rates for just enjoying sound lol...
  


bassdigger said:


> Where have you been?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey BassDigger, just had my 25th birthday so I've been having quite some fun over the weekend spilling into this week 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And agreed on the advantages. Toslink is immune to ground loops like SodaBoy mentioned as well as RF interference so its retransmission has real-world perks against coaxial.
  
 In the end though, I'd state whatever the audio equivalent of "out of sight, out of mind" is.


----------



## GioF71

bassdigger said:


> Hi, I wasn't implying that there's any basis in fact; Gustard is a chosen name, not an already existing word.
> I was just suggesting a possible (positive) perception of this new word: a person with good taste.
> Remember: language is an ever evolving phenomenon.
> 
> Maybe you could help with our quest to define the name....?


 
  
 I am sorry, didn't mean to be rude in any way


----------



## BassDigger

giof71 said:


> I am sorry, didn't mean to be rude in any way


 
  
 Eh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 No offense, whatsoever, taken. I was just clarifying my previous comment. I'm sorry if I came across as terse; that was not my intention.


----------



## GioF71

No you weren't terse, but I thought my comment could be intended as a little too harsh.
 Luckily it wasn't!
  
 Cheers


----------



## Lorspeaker

always love seeing headfiers being courteous to each other...great attitude guys !!


----------



## Noodlz

Hey guys, wanted to ask real quick about your thoughts on the current X12 / U12 stack and how it compares to some of the existing DACs out there. I have a geekout 450 and wyrd4sound µDAC HD as my DACs, and i'm itching for an upgrade.
  
 It's my understanding that the X12 is a huge upgrade from what i have now and the X20 would be even better? Im tempted to try out one of the cheaper DIY parallel PCM1794 DACs from ebay/china for now, and then get the X20 as kinda my end game DAC when it finally does come out. Any thoughts /recommendations? (Oh and i'm going to pair it with the incoming H10)


----------



## GioF71

Unluckily I never head the wyred4sound but I see there are nice comments around.
I think the x12 is probably a nice upgrade especially if you use the wyred4sound powered through usb (so without the optional psu).

My previous best dacs were a Peachtree dacit and a yulong d200; I still own then both and enjoy using them. The Gustard stack has been a nice step up.
I especially still like the yulong d200, more for the dac than the amp: nice but not on par with the h10.
The x12 has given my system some more clarity.
I use it with the u12 and a schiit wyrd, all connected to a dedicated linux box with music player daemon (mpd) and upmpdcli (gives mpd the ability to behave as an upnp renderer).
HDMI cable between u12 and x12.

Also this setup allows me great flexibility as I also connected the dac to the desktop pc. So I can use both solutions easily if for a quick listen I don't want to turn on the linux box (or vice versa).

Also there is probably no comparison with the cheap dacs you can find around. Smsl Sanskrit for example, if this is one of the dac you were suggesting. I own the Sanskrit and it is quite nice especially since I conneted it with a m2tech hiface 2 instead of direct usb. But the new stack is on another level.
There's better stuff around for sure, but I doubt (and hope) there are other stacks on the market with much higher quality/price ratio.


Cheers

Edit: typos


----------



## Noodlz

Nice~ yeah so i just spent my money getting the beresford capelli amp, so now im gonna wait for the X20 to come out to get an upgrade for the dac lol. Decided to pick up the capelli since i hear great things about it being a nice preamp for the H10, and having some interesting options to tune the signature of the sound. Should be interesting to play with =)


----------



## GioF71

noodlz said:


> Nice~ yeah so i just spent my money getting the beresford capelli amp, so now im gonna wait for the X20 to come out to get an upgrade for the dac lol. Decided to pick up the capelli since i hear great things about it being a nice preamp for the H10, and having some interesting options to tune the signature of the sound. Should be interesting to play with =)


 
  
 If I may ask, why would you want to use a preamp before the H10?
 Are you concerned about the volume pot quality, so that you want to crank it up at 100% and control the volume from the preamp?
  
 Just asking, no criticism intended.
  
 Thanks


----------



## Noodlz

No worries~ Actually im not really super concerned about the volume pot quality. It's this whole evil evil curiosity / escalation / strive for better audio quality thing, when you hear something can be even better lol
  
 I've been seeing some reports from this thread and other threads (namely the beresford capella thread), where there are some users (dreamking i believe) who are getting even better sound with H10 using the Capella as the preamp. Supposedly it is even more organic sounding. Theres even another report by DecentLevi who's using a schitt magni to feed into his capelli and getting a reported 25% improvement in the details heard. 
  
 Now i know double amping is generally kind of a bad idea, but i am still curious haha. Waiting to see what people say on the other thread =P


----------



## BassDigger

noodlz said:


> No worries~ Actually im not really super concerned about the volume pot quality. It's this whole evil evil curiosity / escalation / strive for better audio quality thing, when you hear something can be even better lol
> 
> I've been seeing some reports from this thread and other threads (namely the beresford capella thread), where there are some users (dreamking i believe) who are getting even better sound with H10 using the Capella as the preamp. Supposedly it is even more organic sounding. Theres even another report by DecentLevi who's using a schitt magni to feed into his capelli and getting a reported 25% improvement in the details heard.
> 
> Now i know double amping is generally kind of a bad idea, but i am still curious haha. Waiting to see what people say on the other thread =P


 
  
 This seems to call into concern the versatility of the H10's pre input section; maybe it's a bit fussy about matching with certain output sections.
  
 I've heard of this before; some dac output sections, despite being very good quality, cause the dac to have very different sound characteristics, with different amps, because of impedance mis-matches with certain pre-amp sections.
  
 I wonder if that's what, or the reverse of it, is happening here; maybe the dac matches better with the additional pre, and/or the additional pre matches better with the H10, but the dac doesn't match well when connected directly to the H10.


----------



## DreamKing

bassdigger said:


> This seems to call into concern the versatility of the H10's pre input section; maybe it's a bit fussy about matching with certain output sections.
> 
> I've heard of this before; some dac output sections, despite being very good quality, cause the dac to have very different sound characteristics, with different amps, because of impedance mis-matches with certain pre-amp sections.
> 
> I wonder if that's what, or the reverse of it, is happening here; *maybe the dac matches better with the additional pre, and/or the additional pre matches better with the H10, but the dac doesn't match well when connected directly to the H10.*


 
  
 I think this _could _be my case. Some time near I will purchase an R2R dac to experiment and test this hypothesis. I honestly would rather use one amp rather than the Capella to the H10 but my ears are more in bliss with the latter. But the system as a whole needs to be acknowledged so that's where the DAC experimentation is warranted.


----------



## GioF71

For those who have U12 and X12: which hdmi cable do you guys use?
 In case you bought something better than standard tv cables, did you notice some improvements?
 Thanks


----------



## blasjw

giof71 said:


> For those who have U12 and X12: which hdmi cable do you guys use?
> In case you bought something better than standard tv cables, did you notice some improvements?
> Thanks


 
 Pangea Audio - HD-24PCe - HDMI Cable - 4% Silver Plate - .6 Meter.  Haven't tried anything else.


----------



## GioF71

blasjw said:


> Pangea Audio - HD-24PCe - HDMI Cable - 4% Silver Plate - .6 Meter.  Haven't tried anything else.


 
 Nice! Did you notice some improvements?
  
 I bought this one:
  
 http://www.ricable.com/supreme-hdmi-2.0.html
  
 0.5 m length and loved the results. A bit hard to bend due to its short length but worth it.


----------



## blasjw

giof71 said:


> Nice! Did you notice some improvements?
> 
> I bought this one:
> 
> ...


 
 Excellent!  Yes, I do notice some improvement vs. AES.


----------



## hgpsemaj

For your information:
  

  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  

  
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## money4me247

exciting at above. any new word about possible release date? edit: and price point?


----------



## hgpsemaj

money4me247 said:


> exciting at above. any new word about possible release date? edit: and price point?


 
  
  
 RRP RMB4,000 excluding postage.
  
  
 Mr. Huang of Gustard forwarded those pictures to me about 15 mins ago, and I shall keep you update in due course.


----------



## SodaBoy

Looks amazing, I see a lot of changes on the board, don't have the old photos saved but the input section has definitely changed, and the ribbon cable may be hidden?


----------



## hgpsemaj

sodaboy said:


> Looks amazing, I see a lot of changes on the board, don't have the old photos saved but the input section has definitely changed, and the ribbon cable may be hidden?


 
  
 Prototype of X20:


----------



## SodaBoy

Thanks, wow, everything has improved. I was a bit puzzled back then when I saw parts of the PCB were unpopulated, but it looks like it is complete now.
  
 Kicking myself for being broke after the HD800 and NFB-1AMP purchase, guess I'll have to be happy with my X12 and U12 for now...


----------



## hgpsemaj

Please note, post#171 superseded this post.
  
  
  
 Regards


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> For your information:
> 
> Gustard DAC X20
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello hgpsemaj,
  
 Looks very promising! Any info on what kind of XO's used? Are they replaceable?
  
 I don't see any Discrete output stages, are they build around opamps??
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## Lohb

Well it won't stack symmetrically with H10 anyway.
 Wonder if "project H20" will use this form factor (wide vs deep).


----------



## Noodlz

Looks amaaaazing. Question @hgpsemaj do you know if the XLR and the RCA outs of the X20 can be used  both at the same time? That would be pretty awesome to connect the H10 by XLR, and then my tube amp by RCA~


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Hello hgpsemaj,
> 
> Looks very promising! Any info on what kind of XO's used? Are they replaceable?
> 
> ...


 
  
 (i)   TCXO, and I'm sure you're capable to replace it, but not sure for other users.
  
 (ii)  Discrete output stages.
  
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Riemann


----------



## hgpsemaj

noodlz said:


> Looks amaaaazing. Question @hgpsemaj do you know if the XLR and the RCA outs of the X20 can be used  both at the same time? That would be pretty awesome to connect the H10 by XLR, and then my tube amp by RCA~


 
  
 Mr. Huang of Gustard claims both outputs (i.e. RCA and XLR.) could be used simultaneously.
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Riemann


----------



## GioF71

hgpsemaj said:


> Mr. Huang of Gustard claims both outputs (i.e. RCA and XLR.) could be used simultaneously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hello, the same things already happens with the X12.
 I have connected the X12 to the H10 with XLR cables and to a speakers amp with single ended cables.
 Both work simultaneously.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> (i)   TCXO, and I'm sure you're capable to replace it, but not sure for other users.
> 
> (ii)  Discrete output stages.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Riemann,
  
 Sounds good, but, XO's look like they are SMD versions, which are not as easy replacable as conventional xo's


----------



## ansi

Another question for Gustard fans:
  
 If Gustard were to make a portable DAC/AMP, aiming to deliver the X12+H10 sound and as many features as possible in a portable package, what would you be willing to give up? What would your wishlist be?
  
 For example:
 - What connections should get to stay? 
 - ES9018 or AK4495?
 - Would you pay extra to get a plastic casing over aluminum? (A serious question.)
  
 That sort of thing. Thanks in advance


----------



## auvgeek

ansi said:


> Another question for Gustard fans:
> 
> If Gustard were to make a portable DAC/AMP, aiming to deliver the X12+H10 sound and as many features as possible in a portable package, what would you be willing to give up? What would your wishlist be?
> 
> ...


 

 Rather than a combined amp/DAC, I'd love to see Gustard make a small separate amp and DAC that could make a unobtrusive stack (e.g. Schiit Modi/Magni) with a retail price of around $200-$300 USD for the stack. Just need USB input to the DAC (prefer data only); "wall-wart" style power; RCA cables between them; 1/4" headphone out; aluminum casing.
  
 It would be perfect starter setup for budding audio-enthusiasts or for people to bring to work. It seems more likely that you'll get the X12+H10 sound out of that than a portable amp/DAC combo. Just my $0.02.


----------



## chongky

auvgeek said:


> Rather than a combined amp/DAC, I'd love to see Gustard make a small separate amp and DAC that could make a unobtrusive stack (e.g. Schiit Modi/Magni) with a retail price of around $200-$300 USD for the stack. Just need USB input to the DAC (prefer data only); "wall-wart" style power; RCA cables between them; 1/4" headphone out; aluminum casing.
> 
> It would be perfect starter setup for budding audio-enthusiasts or for people to bring to work. It seems more likely that you'll get the X12+H10 sound out of that than a portable amp/DAC combo. Just my $0.02.


 
 +1. I would prefer a no-frills package similar to the Schiit Modi/Magni or the O2/ODAC. I'm a fan of Sabre dacs so I'd prefer the ES9018 over the AK4495. Well implemented of course. And would much prefer a Class A topology amp.
  
 Yeah, and aluminum would be fine.


----------



## sodesuka

ansi said:


> Another question for Gustard fans:
> 
> If Gustard were to make a portable DAC/AMP, aiming to deliver the X12+H10 sound and as many features as possible in a portable package, what would you be willing to give up? What would your wishlist be?
> 
> ...


 
 Would love to have portable or even transportable dac amp combo in one casing from Gustard as form factor was the only reason I don't invest on the brand. I don't really like sabre sound so I'd like to try AK4495. I'd pay extra for aluminium but I don't know why it would cost that much when even $10-20 cheap Chinese amp/dac already use aluminium. I prefer to have optical in so I can use it with video game console, but it's not a must I guess, especially if it's going to be portable. If it's portable then 1/8" is a must, but if transportable 1/4" with rca out is preferable.
  
 Also, I think if this kind of device will attract new users which were not in the market for big heavy dac & amp like x12 and h10 so it'd be better if he price it competitively.


----------



## ansi

sodesuka said:


> Would love to have portable or even transportable dac amp combo in one casing from Gustard as form factor was the only reason I don't invest on the brand. I don't really like sabre sound so I'd like to try AK4495. I'd pay extra for aluminium but I don't know why it would cost that much when even $10-20 cheap Chinese amp/dac already use aluminium. I prefer to have optical in so I can use it with video game console, but it's not a must I guess, especially if it's going to be portable. If it's portable then 1/8" is a must, but if transportable 1/4" with rca out is preferable.
> 
> Also, I think if this kind of device will attract new users which were not in the market for big heavy dac & amp like x10 and h10 so it'd be better if he price it competitively.


 
  
 You misread, plastic casing is actually more expensive than aluminum. I've only heard Aune S16 that has AK4495 and it's pretty great, and the guys at Gustard tell me that it's easier to implement than ES9018. What makes ES9018 interesting for them is it's popularity - many people assume that everything with ES9018 is good, even though we know better. That said, Gustard's ES9018 DACs are pretty great.
  
 edit: If I recall @stuartmc has had Aune S16 and X12 both. Maybe he can weigh in.


----------



## sodesuka

Oh then, since people usually like metal better than plastic (see, phones) I guess it's even better then. 
  
 From marketing point of view, I guess 9018 would be better even though no one knows how 4495 would sound out of Gustard's magic.


----------



## Lorspeaker

how about an OPPO HA-2 slimline kind of dac amp...at a more affordable price.
 i tested it out recently...it is a beau..and the sound is clear n strong.


----------



## lukeap69

ansi said:


> Another question for Gustard fans:
> 
> If Gustard were to make a portable DAC/AMP, aiming to deliver the X12+H10 sound and as many features as possible in a portable package, what would you be willing to give up? What would your wishlist be?
> 
> ...



4-pin XLR
R2R DAC
Aluminum


----------



## BassDigger

lukeap69 said:


> 4-pin XLR
> R2R DAC
> Aluminum


 
  
 I think we're talkin compact and portable, here. Which, I believe, would much more likely mean a 1-bit design.
 I would certainly be interested in any future top-of-the-range multibit dac, if Gustard were to make one!


----------



## LancerFIN

lorspeaker said:


> how about an OPPO HA-2 slimline kind of dac amp...at a more affordable price.
> i tested it out recently...it is a beau..and the sound is clear n strong.


 
 Competitor for Oppo HA-2 would be great. I am not interested in larger "portable" setups.
  
 Or for the sake of growing the brand make entry level competitor for Magni/modi, NFB-15 and o2/odac.


----------



## lukeap69

bassdigger said:


> I think we're talkin compact and portable, here. Which, I believe, would much more likely mean a 1-bit design.
> I would certainly be interested in any future top-of-the-range multibit dac, if Gustard were to make one!



True. But I'm prepared to be surprised by Gustard.


----------



## chongky

bassdigger said:


> I think we're talkin compact and portable, here. Which, I believe, would much more likely mean a 1-bit design.
> I would certainly be interested in any future top-of-the-range multibit dac, if Gustard were to make one!


 
 I thought ES9018 is 6-bit delta sigma? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There isn't 1-bit delta sigma dacs nowadays I believe...


----------



## stuartmc

ansi said:


> You misread, plastic casing is actually more expensive than aluminum. I've only heard Aune S16 that has AK4495 and it's pretty great, and the guys at Gustard tell me that it's easier to implement than ES9018. What makes ES9018 interesting for them is it's popularity - many people assume that everything with ES9018 is good, even though we know better. That said, Gustard's ES9018 DACs are pretty great.
> 
> edit: If I recall @stuartmc has had Aune S16 and X12 both. Maybe he can weigh in.


 
 Yes, I did have the Aune S16 which featured a very well engineered application of the AK4495. I also had a Rega Apollo-R on hand which has the Wolfson chip and an old school Bel Canto DAC with the Burr Brown 1704 R2R chip.  I reached the conclusion that the DAC chip itself is not the sole determining factor of sound quality. The application and implementation is just as important, if not more so.  I had heard all the stories of Sabre "glare" and that all that detail came at a heavy price.  For this reason, many people recommend the Wolfson, and later the AK chip, as almost a universal answer to the Sabre glare polemic.  I read the ESS white paper and some other articles on the Sabre chip and learned that yes, it can have issues if you don't follow their engineers clear guidelines and recommendations.  Yes, you must get serious about your power supply and how you handle the ground plane, among other things, but if you do, the overall performance of the Sabre can be very hard to beat.  Gustard has, in my opinion, done it right.  I never once heard any systemic "glare" that wasn't a part of the recording itself.  The X12 ended up being every bit as smooth and musical as the Aune and the Rega, but had a little more dynamic energy ("punch," if you will), more extended low bass and low level detail. I was impressed by the fact that the extra detail came without any edge or harshness.  I ended up selling the Aune and use the Rega only as a CD transport.  That was just my personal preference. The Aune S16 was really great in its own right and for those seeking an all-in-one desktop solution, I can strongly recommend it.


----------



## Yviena

The New X20 DAC looks good gonna probably buy it after it has been out for awhile and some early listening impressions have been posted.
  
 Tho im wondering why did they decide to use toroids when a EI or R-core will have better noise rejection.


----------



## abartels

That's exact my thought about X-20, looks like a good design except the torroids instead of copper-shielded R-Cores. Maybe Gustard is willing to replace them,,,,,,,,, 

I opted in for first batch, but not sure if i do when shipped with torroids. 


Cheers, 

Alex


----------



## BassDigger

chongky said:


> I thought ES9018 is 6-bit delta sigma?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 My apologies; my terminology was incorrect due to a lack of technical knowledge and understanding. Thanks for enlightening me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Regarding my point: Are you saying that the ES9018 is comparable in its complexity of implementation to an R-2R dac? So therefore, Gustard are just as likely to use R-2R, as delta-sigma, in their portable dac-amp combi?


----------



## ansi

auvgeek said:


> Rather than a combined amp/DAC, I'd love to see Gustard make a small separate amp and DAC that could make a unobtrusive stack (e.g. Schiit Modi/Magni) with a retail price of around $200-$300 USD for the stack. Just need USB input to the DAC (prefer data only); "wall-wart" style power; RCA cables between them; 1/4" headphone out; aluminum casing.
> 
> It would be perfect starter setup for budding audio-enthusiasts or for people to bring to work. It seems more likely that you'll get the X12+H10 sound out of that than a portable amp/DAC combo. Just my $0.02.


 
  
 Let's say a stack would cost $300, a combo unit $200. Sound is identical. Would you still prefer a stack?


----------



## m0reilly

blasjw said:


> Pangea Audio - HD-24PCe - HDMI Cable - 4% Silver Plate - .6 Meter.  Haven't tried anything else.


 

 me too


----------



## stuartmc

Sorry for the repeat post...see below


----------



## stuartmc

m0reilly said:


> me too




I tried the Pangea in .6m too. I was quite surprised to find that even in this application there was an audible difference in cables. I tried a total of four HDMI cables and settled on the Analysis Plus Xfactor HDMI in a 1m length. It gave me the deepest bass and the most natural mid-range body. It can be had for $55 on Amazon.


----------



## chongky

bassdigger said:


> My apologies; my terminology was incorrect due to a lack of technical knowledge and understanding. Thanks for enlightening me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 No worries, I'm not an expert either. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Far as I know, the PCM1704 and AD1865 are the few high-end R-2R dac chips still in production. From what I've heard they are neither cheap nor easy to implement, hence I doubt Gustard would go down this route. Unless they follow the example of Audio-gd in producing both PCM1704 and ES9018 dacs.


----------



## FlySweep

ansi said:


> Another question for Gustard fans:
> 
> If Gustard were to make a portable DAC/AMP, aiming to deliver the X12+H10 sound and as many features as possible in a portable package, what would you be willing to give up? What would your wishlist be?
> 
> ...


 
  
 A portable DAC+amp with X12+H10 sound (and a battery so it can be used with OTG devices) ?  I would be ECSTATIC.  Inputs?  SE 3.5mm & RSA/Kobicon .. outputs?  SE 3.5mm & RSA/Kobicon.  I trust Gustard's expertise with Sabre 9018 implementations.. but I'd love to see a great implementation with a flagship AK chip.  I would pay extra for aluminum.. if it's going to be portable, I'd like something a little more rugged.  Also,  optimization for IEMs would be nice

 Thanks for all your inside info, Ansi!


----------



## stuartmc

flysweep said:


> A portable DAC+amp with X12+H10 sound (and a battery so it can be used with OTG devices) ?  I would be ECSTATIC.  Inputs?  SE 3.5mm & RSA/Kobicon .. outputs?  SE 3.5mm & RSA/Kobicon.  I trust Gustard's expertise with Sabre 9018 implementations.. but I'd love to see a great implementation with a flagship AK chip.  I would pay extra for aluminum.. if it's going to be portable, I'd like something a little more rugged.  Also,  optimization for IEMs would be nice
> 
> Thanks for all your inside info, Ansi!


 
 That sounds very tasty-- especially at Gustard prices!  On the higher end of the scale, there is the ALO Continental Dual Mono, which is tube based, uses a Wolfson chip, gain switchable for IEM's and a cool aluminum case.  I have one in for review now and it's extremely impressive - fit, finish and sound.


----------



## ansi

News: An official, international Gustard shop should be up in July. I don't have (can't tell) the details, but you should be able to:
  
 - Buy Gustard products with international credit cards or Paypal
 - Get extended warranty (not decided on yet I hear, but being considered after all the Europeans cried about two years in the H10 thread )
 - Handle everything in English, including payment, warranty or other related issues
 - Get rewarded for having reviewed Gustard products (don't ask me how)
 - Pay more than the Chinese do, but not too much more


----------



## mylica

ansi said:


> News: An official, international Gustard shop should be up in July. I don't have (can't tell) the details, but you should be able to:
> 
> - Buy Gustard products with international credit cards or Paypal
> - Get extended warranty (not decided on yet I hear, but being considered after all the Europeans cried about two years in the H10 thread )
> ...


 
  
 Any idea when is x20 will be out?


----------



## ansi

mylica said:


> Any idea when is x20 will be out?


 
  
 This month. I keep asking Gustard the date but they won't tell me.


----------



## LancerFIN

Is there any reason not to use the volume control on X12 DAC? Would have to use that with studio monitors.


----------



## SodaBoy

lancerfin said:


> Is there any reason not to use the volume control on X12 DAC? Would have to use that with studio monitors.


 
 The ES9018 has a 32 bit internal volume control, if you are outputting 24 bit to the DAC with a 16 bit/44.1 file, you have 48dB of lossless attenuation. The internal volume has near perfect channel balance. You can't beat the internal ES9018 volume control unless you have a high end attenuator like those found in Audio-GD pre's. The higher the attenuation rate, the more the analog volume pulls ahead of digital.
  
 So no, in your case there is no reason not to use the X12 volume control.


----------



## railrus

am using Benchmark DAC2 HGC which has volume pot with ES9018 chips. sound really good with studio monitor plus output to subwoofer and headphone amp. planning to change to H10 soon!


----------



## HD fan

Hello,
 Do you think it'll be better than the L.K.S. mh–da003 ?


----------



## ansi

hd fan said:


> Hello,
> Do you think it'll be better than the L.K.S. mh–da003 ?


 
  
 X20? I think it'll be better value.


----------



## HD fan

Hello,
 Do you think it'll be better than the L.K.S. mh–da003 ?


----------



## abartels

hd fan said:


> Hello,
> Do you think it'll be better than the L.K.S. mh–da003 ?


 
 X-20 will be better value


----------



## blasjw

hd fan said:


> Hello,
> Do you think it'll be better than the L.K.S. mh–da003 ?


 
 That's sweet looking unit.  I keep looking at that on shenzhenaudio.


----------



## Sapientiam

chongky said:


> Far as I know, the PCM1704 and AD1865 are the few high-end R-2R dac chips still in production. From what I've heard they are neither cheap nor easy to implement, hence I doubt Gustard would go down this route. Unless they follow the example of Audio-gd in producing both PCM1704 and ES9018 dacs.


 
  
 Multibit chips are generally easier to get right on the layout than ES9018 which is about the hardest to do well. Operating frequency has a lot to do with this.
  
 You can check out the status of DAC chips at the manufacturer's websites - I just did that for PCM1704 and found its 'NRND' status meaning TI's not encouraging anyone to design it in. AD1865 has been obsoleted by ADI already.


----------



## ansi

Looks like a DAC/Amp "mini" combo is the top contender to become a product. It should beat JDS Labs's upcoming The Element and Geek Out V2 and be sold for $200 or less. We'll see. Gustard isn't particularly convinced there will be demand for one, so it's a matter of taking the risk in a market that's not familiar to them.


----------



## b0bb

hd fan said:


> Hello,
> Do you think it'll be better than the L.K.S. mh–da003 ?


 

 If Gustard can sell the X20 for under 700 $USD it would be just great . The LKS is more than 2X the cost.
  
 One of the challenges to the X20 is whether is will sound better that the Single Sabre X12 and similar competition like the Yulong D200 and perhaps the DA8.
 If Gustard delivers on the promise it will give the likes of LKS, Yulong and Aune a lot to think about.
  
 Adding a second ES9018 brings problems that must be solved before the benefits can be realized, one of the big headaches of the dual Sabre DAC is making sure the power is very clean and this is often easier said than done.
  
 Gustard skimped on the power supply on the X20 so I am waiting to see how it will do once the product ships.
  
 I have the LKS and I found it to be only an incremental improvement over my Yulong DA8 out of the box. The DA8 has 1 Sabre32 DAC
 I ended rebuilding parts of the LKS before it showed substantial improvement over the Yulong, I see some of the elements I addressed on the LKS manifesting itself in the X20.
  
 The LKS rebuild is documented in the link below.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/745032/lks-audio-mh-da003#post_11491697


----------



## stuartmc

b0bb, thanks for your input. Your work on the LKS was very impressive indeed. One of the things that impressed me most about the X12 and H10 was Gustard's attention to the power supply. Let's hope they can do the same with the production X20 without breaking the bank. I personally wouldn't mind spending a little more for a hotrodded version.

On that note, I would also like to suggest to Gustard that they sell a less expensive version that loses the onboard USB conversion. With the I2S input, many, like me, will use an ultra high quality USB-DDC to feed the X20. Let's optimize the X20 for that and perhaps put the savings into beefed up power regulation. This modular approach would also pave the way for a new and improved U20. 

Ansi, tell the Gustard boys that the Cap'n is ready and willing to review the X20 here and at Positive-Feedback. I can wait for them to get any kinks out of production.


----------



## ansi

stuartmc said:


> b0bb, thanks for your input. Your work on the LKS was very impressive indeed. One of the things that impressed me most about the X12 and H10 was Gustard's attention to the power supply. Let's hope they can do the same with the production X20 without breaking the bank. I personally wouldn't mind spending a little more for a hotrodded version.
> 
> On that note, I would also like to suggest to Gustard that they sell a less expensive version that loses the onboard USB conversion. With the I2S input, many, like me, will use an ultra high quality USB-DDC to feed the X20. Let's optimize the X20 for that and perhaps put the savings into beefed up power regulation. This modular approach would also pave the way for a new and improved U20.
> 
> Ansi, tell the Gustard boys that the Cap'n is ready and willing to review the X20 here and at Positive-Feedback. I can wait for them to get any kinks out of production.


 
  
 X20 will have two versions, one without on-board USB conversion and cheaper price. Wish granted!


----------



## BassDigger

ansi said:


> X20 will have two versions, one without on-board USB conversion and cheaper price. Wish granted!


 
  





  
@stuartmc
 Could you make a wish for Gustard to produce a current drive amp, something like the Bakoon HPA-21, and maybe an R-2R dac, to 'out Yggy' the Yggy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....oh, and maybe world peace, or something, while you're at it?


----------



## mylica

ansi said:


> X20 will have two versions, one without on-board USB conversion and cheaper price. Wish granted!


 
  
 Still waiting for the x20 patiently.    If the x20 with usb can be on par with dac + usb -ddc that will be the best


----------



## FlySweep

bassdigger said:


> Could you make a wish for Gustard to produce a current drive amp, something like the Bakoon HPA-21, and maybe an R-2R dac, to 'out Yggy' the Yggy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep.. both excellent suggestions.  I'd love to see the a R2R DAC from Gustard.. I'd absolutely take that over an X20, personally.  Take my money now!


----------



## lukeap69

flysweep said:


> Yep.. both excellent suggestions.  I'd love to see the a R2R DAC from Gustard.. I'd absolutely take that over an X20, personally.  Take my money now!



Have you read my mind brother? 

Though I still enjoy my NFB-1, my DAC-19 now gets most of my listening time. I have actually found a renewed love with my Lyr 2 because of my DAC-19. Mind boggling what an R2R DAC had done to my gear...


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> @stuartmc
> Could you make a wish for Gustard to produce a current drive amp, something like the Bakoon HPA-21, and maybe an R-2R dac, to 'out Yggy' the Yggy
> 
> 
> ...


 





  Why yes!..."I'd like to say a prayer and drink to world peace." (said Phil in Groundhog Day)


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> Why yes!..."I'd like to say a prayer and drink to world peace." (said Phil in *Groundhog Day*)


 
  
 That's a movie that's long overdue a revisit; Bill Murray portraying some proper western style cynicism and sarcasm.
 I'm living somewhere where chaps ask me if I'm a Westlife (Taylor Swift or that Canadian lad (Or Vampire Diaries!!!)) fan. Genuinely! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Ok, so I can handle a Taylor Swift video. If I have to.)


----------



## BassDigger

lukeap69 said:


> Have you read my mind brother?
> 
> Though I still enjoy my NFB-1, my DAC-19 now gets most of my listening time. I have actually found a renewed love with my Lyr 2 because of my DAC-19. Mind boggling what an R2R DAC had done to my gear...


 
  
 Who's mind was_ I _reading? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 What is it that you like about the R2R sound?
  
 Come on SS Gustard. Let's steer a course, away from streams, towards the deepest oceans of many bits and ladders!


----------



## lukeap69

bassdigger said:


> Who's mind was _I_ reading? :blink:
> 
> What is it that you like about the R2R sound?
> 
> Come on SS Gustard. Let's steer a course, away from streams, towards the deepest oceans of many bits and ladders!




I was responding to Flysweep. Sorry, if it wasn't clear.


----------



## Lohb

bassdigger said:


> Who's mind was_ I _reading?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 +1111 .
 Gustard could being making something multibit at a decent price. Also interested in any portable DAC/Amp they bring out but they could brand themselves differently for the international market and keep the custard for China....anyway,waiting patiently for the balanced amp in the works....


----------



## ansi

lohb said:


> +1111 .
> Gustard could being making something multibit at a decent price. Also interested in any portable DAC/Amp they bring out but they could brand themselves differently for the international market and keep the custard for China....anyway,waiting patiently for the balanced amp in the works....


 
  
 Yes, they could...
  
 edit: btw, meeting the Gustard guys next week. They'll be happy to hear the wishlist.


----------



## lukeap69

ansi said:


> Yes, they could...
> 
> edit: btw, meeting the Gustard guys next week. They'll be happy to hear the wishlist.




cough* Balanced R2R DAC* cough


----------



## Sapientiam

ansi said:


> Yes, they could...
> 
> They'll be happy to hear the wishlist.


 
  
 Something like this - http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.32.StaaVH&id=42124644877&ns=1&abbucket=17#detail but with all the mods implemented as on this thread - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/269199-tda1387-x8-dac-lets-check-its-design-mod-not-play-music-not.html


----------



## FlySweep

ansi said:


> Yes, they could...
> 
> edit: btw, meeting the Gustard guys next week. They'll be happy to hear the wishlist.


 
  
 If they can bring a **great** multi-bit DAC to market at a reasonable price, I'd lose my mind.. the Yggy will never be something I can afford, so Schiit's trickle down is something myself (and virtually everyone else) is looking forward to.. but being one of/the pioneering H10 swabbie, Gustard gets a shot at my wallet first!


----------



## BassDigger

lukeap69 said:


> I was responding to Flysweep. Sorry, if it wasn't clear.




Sorry; I guess I forgot my place


----------



## lukeap69

bassdigger said:


> Sorry; I guess I forgot my place


 
 LOL. No worries mate.
  
 Since using Audio-gd DAC-19, I barely use my NFB-1 since I like the strengths of DAC-19 more than NFB-1 but the balanced R2R DAC of Audio-gd is quite expensive and hence hoping Gustard would jump into the R2R ship. Since you've asked what I like about the R2R, I will highlight what I find good with DAC-19 and what I found good with NFB-1
  
 DAC-19: fuller and more natural tone, less sibilant, seems very quiet/clearer, bigger (though mussier) bass
 NFB-1: better dynamics, more airy, seems more extended on the highs, seems to have bigger soundstage


----------



## hgpsemaj

Extract from TaoBao today:
  
 X20

  

  

  

  

  

  
  
 Regards,


----------



## ansi

And for those who would order from Taobao: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.10.pcYWdM&id=520159383364&ns=1&abbucket=16#detail 
  
 In the bottom there is the international price guide for resellers: US$899 for X20, US$966 for X20U


----------



## mylica

ansi said:


> And for those who would order from Taobao: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.10.pcYWdM&id=520159383364&ns=1&abbucket=16#detail
> 
> In the bottom there is the international price guide for resellers: US$899 for X20, US$966 for X20U


 
  
 That is expensive.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Extract from TaoBao today:
> 
> X20
> 
> ...


 
  
 Are there any reviews available yet?
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Alex


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Are there any reviews available yet?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...


 
   
 No, not as far as I concern.
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Riemann


----------



## gregb

Hello guys, I'm new here. 
  
 I just bought X12 with USB input and I'm kind of annoyed...
 - After few days : Great definition, very neat piece of hardware, a great upgrade from my previous dac + hiface in many ways.
 - I upsample everything from a computer (Daphile) to 352/384khz and I'm very happy with that.
  
 But It still feel a little forward after few days...
  
 In doubt I have tried my old Y - USB cable (to split 5V and data lines) I was using with the hiface.
 - Bad news : X12 usb input needs the 5V supply to work. I was secretly hoping the daughter USB card had her own supply.
 - Second bad news : A cheap USB Lithium battery feeding the 5V supply effectively smooth everything, definitely improve the sound.
  
 I was cheap and I didn't want to take the U12, thinking it should be overkill (to me XMOS is XMOS) and I really wanted a simple "all-in-one" setup.
 BUT, I'm so tired to charge USB batteries every two days ! It's killing me. 
  
 I wonder if I should get the U12 or rather something like the iFi iUSB to get clean USB power supply.
  
 And if anyone have a great and _cheap_ way to supply clean 5V, I'm really interested.


----------



## Lohb

gregb said:


> Hello guys, I'm new here.
> 
> I just bought X12 with USB input and I'm kind of annoyed...
> - After few days : Great definition, very neat piece of hardware, a great upgrade from my previous dac + hiface in many ways.
> ...


 

 Plug your battery into a wall timer if possible and it will be topped up overnight or whatever time you don't use it.
 Takes the 'getting caught with dead batteries' out of the equation.


----------



## gregb

lohb said:


> Plug your battery into a wall timer if possible and it will be topped up overnight or whatever time you don't use it.
> Takes the 'getting caught with dead batteries' out of the equation.


 
  
 I feel so dumb not having thought of this kind of solution.
 Thank you so much !
  
 That said, every USB batteries are internally regulated and they may not be as quiet as some hi-end solution (iFi claim less than 0.1µV noise on their product).
Knowing I could do better will probably haunt me again in 6 months.


----------



## Lohb

gregb said:


> I feel so dumb not having thought of this kind of solution.
> Thank you so much !
> 
> That said, every USB batteries are internally regulated and they may not be as quiet as some hi-end solution (iFi claim less than 0.1µV noise on their product).
> Knowing I could do better will probably haunt me again in 6 months.


 

 If you simply want clean 5 volts USB power. Teradak will do that - U9VA.
 http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=64
 Ebay etc. As others have said the Y-merger cable they provide is worth $44 alone.


----------



## motberg

Note that even with the U12, you will probably still find improvement with clean 5V....
  
 I agree the TeraDac units are very good.. (I actually have 4 of those). A while back I tried using one to replace the 5V for a DDC I was using and was a very nice improvement over my laptop output (running off the laptop batteries). However, since you already have a split USB cable, I would suggest the iFi IUSBPower if you need an immediate solution... There have been so many of these sold, I would think there must be some available on the used market as a discount..
  
 But... from what I am reading on the UpTone Audio Regen, you probably should consider that also...
 you will need wait a couple months for a Regen but can listen with your current batteries until then and will thus have a good reference for when the Regen arrives


----------



## FlySweep

Regen or the Schiit Wyrd.


----------



## gregb

Thanks for the inputs.
  
 iFi is rated 0.1µV and Wyrd 2.5µV but for 100€ less.
 Regen seems also a very interesting solution. 
  
 I just received the X12 so I will stick to the lithium battery setup (from Lohb) for the moment and take some time to listen the dac as it is. It sounds pretty good right now. What's sad is that I bought the X12 mostly for the "dual linear power supply and discrete regulators" argument. There should be plenty of clean 5v already inside the box. It was close to be a perfect all in one solution without cables and boxes everywhere.


----------



## Benny-x

flysweep said:


> Regen or the Schiit Wyrd.


 
 As the discussion on CA keeps ragging, they're not the same thing. I have a Regen v2 (Amber) on the way here now, but from those that do have both they say they affect the sound in different ways, as they're not targeting the same thing, and the Regen sounds better. Besides that, the Wyrd feeding the Regen is said to be worse that Regen on it's own. 
  
 Hopefully, if customs is nice, I'll be finding ou soon. Hit up the Uptone Audio website and read some of John Sweson's tech corner talks or hit up the few Regen threads to find out in more detail. It all been covered already, so use google and do a thread search


----------



## FlySweep

@Benny-x ..
  
@gregb wanted a solution that would separate the data and power lines on a USB connection and provide a clean 5V power source.  Either the Wyrd & Regen would accommodate this.. the Regen goes a step further and matches impedance on the data line (the Wyrd just reclocks, if I understand correctly).  So while they may differ in some ways, either one of the products.. at the fundamental level.. meet @gregb's needs. Using both together seems redundant at the very least.. and degrades the signal (as you mentioned) at the most.


----------



## ansi

Alright, just dropped by Gustard and tried out a bunch of stuff. They had gotten HE6 to the lab, no particular reason they said. Lies. 
  
 I did have some of my own gear with me this time around and I can say that X20 is good. If it wasn't so damn big and heavy I would have grabbed one. Maybe on my way back home.
  
 But something way more interesting than the huge X20 was a small black box. A prototype portable _dual _ess9018k2m (also another prototype is being made with another chip...), dsd-compatible, balanced, class-a dac/amp combo. Unfortunately mass producing one apparently needs some serious manufacturing chops due to the small size and the complexity which means not just any factory can make them, which in turn means it may never get made since they'd have to make so many of them.


----------



## chongky

flysweep said:


> Regen or the Schiit Wyrd.


 
  
 I'll be cautious about USB Regen & Uptone Audio - a company which, until 2015, never existed. All the hype seems to generate from Computer Audiophile forum, and it's far too easy nowadays for sockpuppets to promote a product that appears _too good to be true_. How on earth can you *"generate a completely new USB data signal to feed to your DAC"*?* *



* *





 Physics and Logic still exist on Planet Earth.
  
 Until a credible print magazine does a review and dear Mr John Swenson appear on Sound Science forum to explain himself, I'll remain skeptical.


----------



## Benny-x

chongky said:


> I'll be cautious about USB Regen & Uptone Audio - a company which, until 2015, never existed. All the hype seems to generate from Computer Audiophile forum, and it's far too easy nowadays for sockpuppets to promote a product that appears _too good to be true_. How on earth can you *"generate a completely new USB data signal to feed to your DAC"*?* *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ah, it works like a USB hub. It reclocks the signal as it enters and exits the USB PHY hub chip, nothing special about that. People have been touting putting a USB hub in the chain for ages. If you're familiar with the Vaunix Lab Hub, people right here on good old head-fi have been using it for about 4 years. Curiously it reclocks the signal and ads it's own LPSU for power... Recently people have been saying the same on several audio forums about adding a switch when using ethernet between PCs or a DAC with ethernet input.
  
 Then he used whatever skill he has to make the output impedance whatever subjective value he thought mated best with your run of the mill USB DAC input. And finally he modded the impedance of the ground wire, which other DIY people have also been doing to good effect. That's quite strange though, matching impedances and stuff, it's almost like what engineers talk about it how lengths of wire can affect signals and reflections data transmission in different midums of cable... The result simply being, in UpTone's opinion, to lower the error rate of the transmission to lower the work load for the DAC USB PHY input chip in decoding the signal and changing to I2s. 
  
 I'm regurgitating my understanding of it as best as I can, but even if I got some terms wrong, the entire concept of it is pretty straight forward and NOT NEW. Whether it makes any audible difference, I can't say, but what I can say is that I won't be saying there are shills over on Computer Audiophile pumping UpTones tires and smoke bombing the masses. There have been something like 400 units sold and there are a **** ton of commenters over, not just 3 or 4 people that keep winding it up again and again.
  
 If you'd like some better and more in depth reading on the topic, go have a look at the Tech Corner or whatever the info page is on their website. John Swenson goes into a lot of detail in explaining how everything works, and that way you don't end up with a  ""* "genereate a completely new USB data signal to feed your DAC"? *








 "" ...


----------



## Benny-x

ansi said:


> Alright, just dropped by Gustard and tried out a bunch of stuff. They had gotten HE6 to the lab, no particular reason they said. Lies.
> 
> I did have some of my own gear with me this time around and I can say that X20 is good. If it wasn't so damn big and heavy I would have grabbed one. Maybe on my way back home.
> 
> But something way more interesting than the huge X20 was a small black box. A prototype...


 
 When I read that I was thinking it was a new U12! I was all like "yeahhhhh, U20!!", but then it turned out to be that portable player that you were asking about earlier   
  
 Good for Gustard, though, and hopefully they can get something viable out of it. Both in product and ability to produce it. Although the A&K products are cool looking and seem to be selling well, they're priced like a punch in the face. Something more reasonable and good can definitely take the stage. Good luck to them


----------



## chongky

benny-x said:


> Ah, it works like a USB hub. It reclocks the signal as it enters and exits the USB PHY hub chip, nothing special about that. People have been touting putting a USB hub in the chain for ages. If you're familiar with the Vaunix Lab Hub, people right here on good old head-fi have been using it for about 4 years. Curiously it reclocks the signal and ads it's own LPSU for power... Recently people have been saying the same on several audio forums about adding a switch when using ethernet between PCs or a DAC with ethernet input.
> 
> Then he used whatever skill he has to make the output impedance whatever subjective value he thought mated best with your run of the mill USB DAC input. And finally he modded the impedance of the ground wire, which other DIY people have also been doing to good effect. That's quite strange though, matching impedances and stuff, it's almost like what engineers talk about it how lengths of wire can affect signals and reflections data transmission in different midums of cable... The result simply being, in UpTone's opinion, to lower the error rate of the transmission to lower the work load for the DAC USB PHY input chip in decoding the signal and changing to I2s.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Really? I'll like you to bring this discussion to Sound Science forum. I have no time for pseudo science.
  
 BTW, I'll wait for your product to feature on Amazon before making further comments.
  
 Your site is clearly a phishing site. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ciao.


----------



## bavinck

The self-appointed science police have finally arrived - everyone duck!!


----------



## Benny-x

chongky said:


> Really? I'll like you to bring this discussion to Sound Science forum. I have no time for pseudo science.
> 
> BTW, I'll wait for your product to feature on Amazon before making further comments.
> 
> ...


 
 So do I take the high road, and the honest road, and ask you to point me toward whichever thread this is being discussed in a civilized and informed manor, or do I take the low road and just a call you an idiot because I clearly stated I was no expert and only attempting to be (1) nice and (2) provide what I had learned about the product, which again, I qualified as being unqualified?
  
 I'm no armchair warrior, I'm here to find out about ****, enjoy audio, learn and share. If there's something I can learn more of, link me to the thread. I don't want to read a white paper and I don't want to read pages of technical documents. I'm no engineer, so think "hobbyist" when you get back to all of us with you reply


----------



## gregb

After 10 days, here is my feedback on the Gustard X12 USB if you're interested
 (and sorry for my english)
  
_Disclaimer__ : _I do have a K701 and a iFi ican but I listen music on speakers most of the time (Hypex 180hxr, B&W cm7, velodyne spl800 ultra).
  
*Background*
 I have a hiface (first version) connected to a TC electronic BMC-2 dac. It's a well known dac in france and after many years I can say it's a rather good dac. Everything is connected to a dedicated computer on linux (Daphile) with large buffers and finely tuned Alsa settings. I was previously on OSX with Pure music.
  
*Day 1*
 The USB is plug&play. it's a nice and heavy box. It's feel ready to stay powered on 24/7 
 Noticed great improvement regarding the matching with my passive pre-amp. The X12 really drive the whole chain flawlessly. Low volume listening is clearly better. Digital volume is also really good and helps a lot to find a perfect matching with the amp.
 I had to lower the subwoofer settings to find the right balance
 There's a lot of resolution. There's also a lot of energy, way too much energy...
  
*Day 4*
 Sound is very detailed, no question about that. I hoped some burn-in will greatly smooth the sound but there's no improvement so far. I have also noticed that the Dac needs power from the USB (5v) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. A cheap USB lithium battery helps a lot and I finally got something good.
  
*Day 6*
 I have tested the old hiface with spdif input and the same USB battery. Oh oh !
 Yes, the first hiface is clearly better than the dac USB input. In less than 30 seconds of music you immediately notice the difference. To tell the truth at this point I'm not even mad because it sounds so much better. I found that the dac in itself is really, really good. I finally get the "upgrade" feeling and chills with the music. My setup never sounded like that and it starts to totally justify the 500€ I paid.
 In the other end, I don't even know why Gustard engineers bothered to put an Xmos chip in the dac. It's dull and useless.
  
*Today*
 Cheap USB battery can produce some RF noise despite low ripple and overall good performance. (most of the time, voltage is boosted to reach 5v). I had to test a very very clean 5v power supply to make my mind on the Gustard X12 USB input.
 I have made a cheap Alcaline battery pack (4 AA cells), unregulated and slowly discharged to reach 5v
  
 Yes, there's a catch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The dac USB input finally catch up with the hiface and even exceed it !
 I wasn't expecting that but at this point the setup is so transparent you quickly notice the shift on the soundstage. It was deep, now it's deeper and clearer. No matter how hard I try to push the old hiface, I can't output something as good.
  
 At this point, I don't know what to think.
 I'm in a middle of my honeymoon with this dac and I may be wrong but I don't even think the U12 could add anything the sound.
  
  
*Back to the thread*
 Those alcaline cells will be dead soon and I will come back to reality.
 I will come back to questions like Regen or Wyrd or iUSB or Aqvox ? or question like do I really have to pay half the price of the dac to have something I can have with few AA cells 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?
 I have already made tons of optimisations on the computer side to help data transmission with overall good results (dedicated computer, playing from ram, etc). I wonder why there is no cheap commercial battery solution for USB power supply. I'm sure something can be made for less than $50.


----------



## DreamKing

ansi said:


> Alright, just dropped by Gustard and tried out a bunch of stuff. *They had gotten HE6 to the lab, no particular reason they said. Lies. *
> 
> I did have some of my own gear with me this time around and I can say that X20 is good. If it wasn't so damn big and heavy I would have grabbed one. Maybe on my way back home.
> 
> But something way more interesting than the huge X20 was a small black box. A prototype portable _dual _ess9018k2m (also another prototype is being made with another chip...), dsd-compatible, balanced, class-a dac/amp combo. Unfortunately mass producing one apparently needs some serious manufacturing chops due to the small size and the complexity which means not just any factory can make them, which in turn means it may never get made since they'd have to make so many of them.


 
  
 What lies, does that mean they're making an amp for the HE-6? You brought this question to yourself lol, this statement couldn't go unnoticed from me.


----------



## SodaBoy

Getting a bit quiet here. Has anyone actually ordered the X20 from Taobao? I'm not seeing anything from the resellers yet, and in two days it'll be July.


----------



## Triplefun

It would be a good start to sales if someone could find an objective way to compare the output of the X10 vs the X12 vs the x12+U12 and the X20 so you have a better expectation of the value in upgrading. I was an early adopter of the X10 and have gained an enormous amount of pleasure from the luxury of DSD128 oversampling. I am now considering whether it is worth my while upgrading to the X20 (Christmas present) and either relocating the X10 to my office 5.1 system (as an option) or selling it on ebay? And presumably the X20 supports DSD256 out of the box? Other issues to consider would be the Windows ASIO driver, the Windows audio renderer (I'm still using Foobar and JRiver and have tinkered with HQPlayer), room correction and  the quality of the source material (DSD vs FLAC) and the playback hardware. If only there weren't so many variables?


----------



## stuartmc

sodaboy said:


> Getting a bit quiet here. Has anyone actually ordered the X20 from Taobao? I'm not seeing anything from the resellers yet, and in two days it'll be July.


 
 I have been in contact with Mr. Huang of Gustard and a review of the new X20 is in the works.  I should be receiving it sometime after the 15th of July. It is my intention to do the full review for Positive-Feedback online magazine, but I will also be reporting my findings right here to the swabbies aboard the SS Gustard.   I will be doing direct comparisons to the X12 and also to ALO dual mono Continental.  Fun times and smooth sailing ahead!


----------



## ansi

stuartmc said:


> I have been in contact with Mr. Huang of Gustard and a review of the new X20 is in the works.  I should be receiving it sometime after the 15th of July. It is my intention to do the full review for Positive-Feedback online magazine, but I will also be reporting my findings right here to the swabbies aboard the SS Gustard.   I will be doing direct comparisons to the X12 and also to ALO dual mono Continental.  Fun times and smooth sailing ahead!


 
  
 Awesome. Despite the X20 being out already, you'll probably still end up being the first person to review it. I'm glad that Gustard is agreeing to send out review kit.. X20 is getting a little bit too expensive to buy out of curiosity.


----------



## patrickstar

greetings to all.

sorry for my bad english

i need help for repairing my gustard x12

I purchased gustard x12 through a taobao agent on february 2015.
yesterday the dac stopped working and the lcd panel light blinking continously.

i contacted the taobao agent but theyre not too keen to assist and just told me to call the seller.

as i dont speak or read chinese language
please help me on how to send the unit back. can i just send the board to save shipping cost?

many thanks in advance.

andy


----------



## gregb

patrickstar said:


> greetings to all.
> 
> sorry for my bad english
> 
> ...


 
  
 It happened to me once.

  
 I was trying to tweak the USB buffer size from the computer. At a certain point, the Dac stopped locking the signal and the LCD started to blink (and even display the serial number). A reboot was not enough. Unplugging and plugging the USB again fixed the problem for me.
  

 Is your problem only with the USB input ?
 (I know the dac can be quite unresponsive when the USB is tripping)
 Does your USB connection is stable enough ?


----------



## ansi

patrickstar said:


> greetings to all.
> 
> sorry for my bad english
> 
> ...


 
  
 Use the form on this site: http://www.seowon-audio.com/


----------



## patrickstar

Thank you all for the reply.
  
 the unit controller is stuck 
 I can't choose other digital input nor change volume
  
 I
 ll try Seewon audio and hopefully can get some resolve
  
  
 Once again  Thank you all


----------



## ansi

patrickstar said:


> Thank you all for the reply.
> 
> the unit controller is stuck
> I can't choose other digital input nor change volume
> ...


 
  
 The form is gone and there's an email address instead with a request to resend everything. You may want to look into that.


----------



## patrickstar

ansi said:


> The form is gone and there's an email address instead with a request to resend everything. You may want to look into that.


 
 My email got bounced
 Please advise another email address 
  
 Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

      customerservice@seowon-audio.com

 Technical details of permanent failure:
 Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domainseowon-audio.com by sitemail.everyone.net. [216.200.145.235].

 The error that the other server returned was:
 550 Recipient Rejected: Domain not hosted here


----------



## patrickstar

my email got bounced
 please advice other email address 
  
 thank you in adavance


----------



## BassDigger

patrickstar said:


> .....
> 
> I purchased gustard x12 through a taobao agent on february 2015.
> yesterday the dac stopped working and the lcd panel light blinking continously.
> ...


 


ansi said:


> Use the form on this site: http://www.*seowon-audio.*com/


 
  
@patrickstar Which TaoBao seller did you use?
  
 I can only see one:
 huang_cs
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.20141002.4.3w6RVH&scm=1007.10009.6098.i39116330458&id=18012850492&pvid=90247c07-a6f1-4cfb-88ed-17c867a1eeff
  
 As I understand it this is, in effect, Gustard; Huang is the main business/sales person there.
 Also, they are very willing to service/repair units bought elsewhere.
  
@ansi Is this information correct? Who are seowon-audio?


----------



## ansi

bassdigger said:


> @patrickstar Which TaoBao seller did you use?
> 
> I can only see one:
> huang_cs
> ...


 
  
 Seowon Audio is a Gustard partner, based in HK. They'll help you with the warranty even if you didn't buy from them. They speak English.
  
 Huang will get any device fixed as well, regardless of where you bought it, but he can't speak English.


----------



## patrickstar

Thank you Ansi, Bass digger 
  
 I bought the unit from Huang_cs through a taobao agent
  
 I did like the sound  and have an intention to buy the x20 when it's available 
 however with this reabiliity issue
 I'm not  so sure  if I want to buy again 
  
 I hope seowon  web site and email  will work properly and my unit can play music again


----------



## Schopenhauer

patrickstar said:


> Thank you Ansi, Bass digger
> 
> I bought the unit from Huang_cs through a taobao agent
> 
> ...


 
 Given that everyone here has reassured you that the issue will be fixed - some of whom are in direct contact with Gustard - it seems a bit premature to question whether you'd want to buy from Gustard again. As for the reliability "issue", you're the first person I've heard of with a problem. QC seems to be very consistent for Gustard, at least in the States.


----------



## abartels

schopenhauer said:


> Given that everyone here has reassured you that the issue will be fixed - some of whom are in direct contact with Gustard - it seems a bit premature to question whether you'd want to buy from Gustard again. As for the reliability "issue", you're the first person I've heard of with a problem. QC seems to be very consistent for Gustard, at least in the States.


 
  
 +1 I Agree


----------



## ansi

patrickstar said:


> Thank you Ansi, Bass digger
> 
> I bought the unit from Huang_cs through a taobao agent
> 
> ...


 
  
 Does the LCD have anything on it? Can you see the sampling rate (for example 44.1K) in the lower left corner?


----------



## patrickstar

Hi Ansi
  
 Th display show only   usb,  slow and 00 db
 the led backlight is blinking fast and always lit, usually it went out after a couple of minutes
  
 regrds


----------



## ansi

patrickstar said:


> Hi Ansi
> 
> Th display show only   usb,  slow and 00 db
> the led backlight is blinking fast and always lit, usually it went out after a couple of minutes
> ...


 
  
 Can you do some simple soldering and have a multimeter? Use DC20V to measure R22 to ground, that should be 1.6V. R22 resistor is the one next to 100M crystal. If it shows 0.x V or 3V, it means the crystal has failed. Replacing it will fix the problem.
  
 If it does show 1.6V, or if you have no idea what I just said, or have no interest to try, I'll send you a PM with all the info you need to send the device back to Gustard for repairs.


----------



## Suopermanni

Is the Gustard website up yet for international orders and/or the X20 ready for order? Depending on cost and whether it comes with USB, the X20 sounds rather interesting.


----------



## patrickstar

Taobao seller already  has  X20 for sale 
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.w4018-9921340270.10.g92fxk&id=520159383364&scm=1007.11837.6006.i18012850492&pvid=35566877-75fe-42bf-b219-d3414d48f516
  
 I don't see any on ebay yet 
  
 I think the ebay price will be around $850-900 shipped


----------



## genclaymore

I been thinking about the gustard X12 for a while but what does it sound like it sound signature thru I2S with the Gustard U12. If any one knows. Also how does it compares to a bifrost uber other then the connections the X12 has.


----------



## SodaBoy

genclaymore said:


> I been thinking about the gustard X12 for a while but what does it sound like it sound signature thru I2S with the Gustard U12. If any one knows. Also how does it compares to a bifrost uber other then the connections the X12 has.


 

 I'm running my X12 with the U12 thru i2s, the setup is dead neutral with no typical SABRE harshness, overall sound is very spacious. Can't help you with the Bifrost Uber though.


----------



## conquerator2

I had the Gungnir. Preferred the X12 mostly. The U12 was not necessary at all IMO for the X12.


----------



## strreamix

Does anyone own (or have heard) both the o2+odac and the gustard h10 + mid tier dac (no more than 600$)?
  
 I am curious as to how the sounds differ, specifically in the sub-bass (below 40hz region).
 My budget is tight, but if there is a remarkable difference in sub-bass that is noted, I might as well save up.
  
 What about running the H10 with the ODAC? Is that a route worth taking or will the ODAC bottleneck the H10?


----------



## ansi

strreamix said:


> Does anyone own (or have heard) both the o2+odac and the gustard h10 + mid tier dac (no more than 600$)?
> 
> I am curious as to how the sounds differ, specifically in the sub-bass (below 40hz region).
> My budget is tight, but if there is a remarkable difference in sub-bass that is noted, I might as well save up.
> ...


 
  
 I happen to have all the mentioned. H10 sounds fine with ODAC to me. H10 with X12 is better across the board than ODAC/O2 is. My bassiest headphones are probably HE400 and H10 does remarkably good job with them, so may not be a fair comparison with whatever you have. T90 sounds fuller with H10 than with O2 when ODAC is used.


----------



## Jozurr

Has anyone tried or heard the Gustard X9? It has dual wolfson chips and I'm tempted to buy it for under $400 shipped.


----------



## adamgdansk

Has ANYONE actualy heard X20 and can compare to X12 etc?


----------



## LancerFIN

adamgdansk said:


> Has ANYONE actualy heard X20 and can compare to X12 etc?


 

 Not yet. @stuartmc should be getting his X20 for review soon.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

I wonder how is it compare to Yulong DA8..


----------



## bahamot

patrickstar said:


> Taobao seller already  has  X20 for sale
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.w4018-9921340270.10.g92fxk&id=520159383364&scm=1007.11837.6006.i18012850492&pvid=35566877-75fe-42bf-b219-d3414d48f516
> 
> I don't see any on ebay yet
> ...


 
 That X20 indeed looks great!


----------



## Triplefun

This has benn on eBay for some time ...http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X20U-Super-Ultimate-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/111708547958?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a02592b76. Price $870..


----------



## adamgdansk

Good. I can see that in Europe one can buy x12 for reasonable price on amazon.co.uk so I wonder if worth to risk sourcing x20 from Asia, custom duties etc ...


----------



## genclaymore

Should be fine if they use EMS, now if they used DHL then expect the higher chance of custom duties as it might happen.But only if you think the X20 is worth it to you. X20 does look nice but X12 is my limit, and it already cost a lot as it is.


----------



## conquerator2

My experience is reversed. DHL is less likely, FedEx is second EMS absolutely sucks. Always demands complete documentation and bugs me on end. IMO. YMMV.


----------



## GioF71

For e.u. citizens, Kidult Online has announced the availability of the new Gustard X20 DAC by the end of july.
 Don't know if I can post the URL :-o


----------



## stuartmc

*NEWS FLASH......*
  
 The X-20 has landed!... probably the first unit for review outside of China and your humble Captain is manning the helm. The X20 is ensconced in my audio rack and break in has commenced with the Purist Audio System Enhancement disc. Further reports to come.   I may end up posting them here*, *or if interest warrants, I may start a completely new thread.


----------



## fattycheesebeef

Can't wait!!


----------



## ansi

stuartmc said:


> *NEWS FLASH......*
> 
> The X-20 has landed!... probably the first unit for review outside of China and your humble Captain is manning the helm. The X20 is ensconced in my audio rack and break in has commenced with the Purist Audio System Enhancement disc. Further reports to come.   I may end up posting them here*, *or if interest warrants, I may start a completely new thread.


 
  
 I have one too by the way. Seems OK.


----------



## stuartmc

ansi said:


> I have one too by the way. Seems OK.




Good news Ansi. We can compare notes. I am quite impressed with the build quality right out of the box. The display screen and information it conveys is outstanding. The little remote control was also quite a surprise. It's much more functional and handy than I would have thought.


----------



## hotw

Damn, i register this site just for x20 performance. I have been waiting for the different between x20 and x12 before deciding which one to buy.


----------



## stuartmc

hotw said:


> Damn, i register this site just for x20 performance. I have been waiting for the different between x20 and x12 before deciding which one to buy.


 
  
 This is really the big question for me too.  The model I have - the X20U sells for $866, which is about $300 over the the price of the X12.  For the size, build quality and features, that is an extremely good price on the X20.   I think Gustard is able to do this because they are now selling direct and do not have to discount their price as much to the distributors.  Of course the question is - how much better does it sound compared to the X12?  I will be prepared to answer that question for myself very soon as I will be making direct, level matched, A-B comparisons.


----------



## m0reilly

thanks stu. atm, i'm (again) looking at the wyred4sound dac-1 le, or this (x20). be neat to hear your opinion re the x20.


----------



## stuartmc

m0reilly said:


> thanks stu. atm, i'm (again) looking at the wyred4sound dac-1 le, or this (x20). be neat to hear your opinion re the x20.




That's an interesting choice. Many of us think that the dac-1 is virtually the same thing as the Gustard X-10. Gustard did contract manufacturing work for other companies, so it is entirely possible that they built this unit for Wyred. You may be paying more than twice the price for basically the same DAC. The same thing came up with Rein Audio and it was proved without much doubt to be a Gustard manufactured DAC.

I should add that the similarities between the Gustard and Rein units, particularly inside board layout, is much closer than the Wyred DAC-1.


----------



## m0reilly

i had noticed that. the le version is dsd capable, the analog section looks a bit different, and there are used units around. i didn't care for the lean bass from the x12/u12 combo, but do like the ess sound.


----------



## conquerator2




----------



## hotw

stuartmc said:


> This is really the big question for me too.  The model I have - the X20U sells for $866, which is about $300 over the the price of the X12.  For the size, build quality and features, that is an extremely good price on the X20.   I think Gustard is able to do this because they are now selling direct and do not have to discount their price as much to the distributors.  Of course the question is - how much better does it sound compared to the X12?  I will be prepared to answer that question for myself very soon as I will be making direct, level matched, A-B comparisons.


 
  
 ok. Looking forward into your finding


----------



## mikey1964

Hi guys, sorry for the noob question, but how the heck does one get the X12 to play DSD tracks on foobar? Is there a guide somewhere? I'm at a loss......oh yeah, I've just gotten a H10 + X12 combo.


----------



## Benny-x

mikey1964 said:


> Hi guys, sorry for the noob question, but how the heck does one get the X12 to play DSD tracks on foobar? Is there a guide somewhere? I'm at a loss......oh yeah, I've just gotten a H10 + X12 combo.


 
 I feel like an idiot too... I was following, or so I thought, setting up foobar to play DSD with my LHLabs Geek Out 1000 and I could get "some" sound, but it sucked and sounded distorted. I tried to rearrange some of the settings, but that got me no sound at all. I followed a guide off Audiostream.
  
 Does anyone else have a good guide for enabling DSD playback in foobar? What kind of options will it give you for bitrates (DSD64, 128, 256, all of the above?) Also, is there any player that does "auto-negotiate"? I'd really like to make a mixed playlist of DSD, FLAC, and WAV because I've bought some DSD versions of albums I have in the other formats to see if there's any difference, but I can't get it to work. Help/direction much appreciated


----------



## mikey1964

benny-x said:


> I feel like an idiot too... I was following, or so I thought, setting up foobar to play DSD with my LHLabs Geek Out 1000 and I could get "some" sound, but it sucked and sounded distorted. I tried to rearrange some of the settings, but that got me no sound at all. I followed a guide off Audiostream.
> 
> Does anyone else have a good guide for enabling DSD playback in foobar? What kind of options will it give you for bitrates (DSD64, 128, 256, all of the above?) Also, is there any player that does "auto-negotiate"? I'd really like to make a mixed playlist of DSD, FLAC, and WAV because I've bought some DSD versions of albums I have in the other formats to see if there's any difference, but I can't get it to work. Help/direction much appreciated


 
 Hah! So I ain't the only one! The Gustard rep here should post a guide as to how to enable DSD playback on Foobar. Check out the other Gustard thread here (the H10 thread), I'd asked the same question there and someone posted a possible solution.


----------



## adamgdansk

So - have you compared A/B now? Please do not get me wrong vut if you'd need several days of listening to find out that A is better then B that this 300usd difference is not worth it ))))))) you should hear the DIFFERENCE right awya if x20 is so much better....... if it is all abot subtle differences then no point to find out or pay more... my opinion of course


----------



## m0reilly

all i did was to use the luckit driver that was posted in the u12/x12 thread, downloded the driver and whatever else .dll for foobar to be dsd aware, set my playback preference from wasapi to the new foobar driver, then used the control panel from the luckit set to adjust  my dsd level, and away it went. i was also able to play back redbook at the high sample rates, though it sounded too smooth, lacking dynamics. to set it back to non dsd playback, i would just reload the wasapi event driver.


----------



## gregb

Hey stuartmc. From what I’ve read, you’re a big fan of the U12 and many good usb interfaces.
  
 Many people found the usb daughter card from Gustard is not up the the level, and I totally agree regarding the X12. But I’ve found *big* improvements with a dedicated 5V supply on the USB input of the X12. It’s like night and day.
  
 At this point, I’ve no idea what an high end external USB interface like the U12 could add. 
 If you have a way to compare (with regen, iUSB or just 5V battery) I would be really curious to know your results.


----------



## stuartmc

adamgdansk said:


> So - have you compared A/B now? Please do not get me wrong vut if you'd need several days of listening to find out that A is better then B that this 300usd difference is not worth it ))))))) you should hear the DIFFERENCE right awya if x20 is so much better....... if it is all abot subtle differences then no point to find out or pay more... my opinion of course


 
 I don't need several days of listening, but I do need to give the X20 several days of burn-in before I do any critical listening. I learned that lesson with the X12 when I was comparing it to the Aune S16 and my Rega Apollo R.  The X12's sound quality changed significantly for the better after about 48 hours. Once burned in, I can usually nail the major differences in the first few minutes of play.  The more subtle differences take a little longer.  Of course in high-end audio the rule of diminishing returns is fully in play.  Some audiophiles will pay thousands for a very subtle/slight improvement in performance, some would pay $300, and then there are those who wouldn't spend a dime on such subtleties.


----------



## stuartmc

gregb said:


> Hey stuartmc. From what I’ve read, you’re a big fan of the U12 and many good usb interfaces.
> 
> Many people found the usb daughter card from Gustard is not up the the level, and I totally agree regarding the X12. But I’ve found *big* improvements with a dedicated 5V supply on the USB input of the X12. It’s like night and day.
> 
> ...


 
 I think a dirty power supply is one of the major culprits.  There are lots of guys claiming similar improvements when using a dedicated 5V supply. I don't think it is the only culprit to diminished sound quality.  Higher grade clock crystals, buffering schemes and galvanic isolation, to name a few, can yield noticeable improvements.  I source my usb signal with a battery powered tablet, so I don't have the same dirty power problems that large computers have.  Nevertheless, I found the U12 to be an excellent pairing with the X12, and my Tanly USB-DDC is even better.  The Tanly is so good that I have retired my Rega Apollo R as a CD transport and now rip all of my CDs to FLAC files.


----------



## gregb

stuartmc said:


> I think a dirty power supply is one of the major culprits.  There are lots of guys claiming similar improvements when using a dedicated 5V supply. I don't think it is the only culprit to diminished sound quality.  Higher grade clock crystals, buffering schemes and galvanic isolation, to name a few, can yield noticeable improvements.  I source my usb signal with a battery powered tablet, so I don't have the same dirty power problems that large computers have.  Nevertheless, I found the U12 to be an excellent pairing with the X12, and my Tanly USB-DDC is even better.  The Tanly is so good that I have retired my Rega Apollo R as a CD transport and now rip all of my CDs to FLAC files.


 
  
I have made many tests with the usb input of the x12 and I don't think you should trust your tablet.
From what I see (and what I can hear) there is no regulation or filtering on the daughter card. It's like straight wire to the Xmos chip. And it's a very very sensitive component...

That said, I do think I2S *with* masterclock link from the U12 should be the best option. Because everything before the delta sigma conversion is clocked externally in a dedicated hardware with hi-end txco crystals.

But on the other end, any other input (spdif, aes, usb daughter card) end up being reclocked by the crystals inside the dac. In this situation, a *properly regulated* Xmos chip directly connected in I2S *without* masterclock link (in any way there is not even signal clocks on the daughter card) have to be the second best option.

Technically, everything else should be voodoo magic or some features to help when there's limitations from the computer.


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> I think a dirty power supply is one of the major culprits.  There are lots of guys claiming similar improvements when using a dedicated 5V supply. I don't think it is the only culprit to diminished sound quality.  Higher grade clock crystals, buffering schemes and galvanic isolation, to name a few, can yield noticeable improvements.  I source my usb signal with a battery powered tablet, so I don't have the same dirty power problems that large computers have.  Nevertheless, I found the U12 to be an excellent pairing with the X12, and my Tanly USB-DDC is even better.  *The Tanly is so good that I have* *retired my Rega Apollo R as a CD transport and now rip all of my CDs to FLAC files. *


 
  
 It's interesting to read about comparisons between transports; it seems like most here use their computers and have never used anything else.
 I went straight from CD players (in my speaker system) to a dedicated transport/dac (and headphones). I've never used a computer (except for the direct analogue output 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 Did you use your Rega as a transport, for your dac, or just use its on-board dac (plugging it straight into your amp)?


----------



## Jhya

mikey1964 said:


> Hah! So I ain't the only one! The Gustard rep here should post a guide as to how to enable DSD playback on Foobar. Check out the other Gustard thread here (the H10 thread), I'd asked the same question there and someone posted a possible solution.


 
 I posted same answer on the H10 thread. Don't know if this thread is more appropriate:
  
 This is a step by step instruction for getting Foobar to work with DSD:
  
http://www.audiostream.com/content/how-play-dsd-file-using-foobar2000#E4619OiCRTDJAGqB.97
  
 You need to install a couple additional files: *foo_out_asio.fb2k-component, ASIOProxyInstall.exe & foo_input_sacd.dll*
  
 Also this website discusses the neutered XMOS driver that came with the mini-CD actually sounds worse and will not enable DSD. You need to install a FULL working version driver from Thesycon.
  
http://soundex.ru/?app=forums&module=forums&controller=topic&id=41399&page=1


----------



## mikey1964

jhya said:


> I posted same answer on the H10 thread. Don't know if this thread is more appropriate:
> 
> This is a step by step instruction for getting Foobar to work with DSD:
> 
> ...


 
 Awesome! Another helpful post!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll try what you'd suggested, btw, any diff now that I've just upgraded to Win10?


----------



## Jhya

Yea, with Windows 10, you can't just disable driver signing in advanced boot up as Win 10 will not let you install kernel level drivers that's unsigned. You will need to enable test mode boot up, then install the modified driver version 2.24

Read this: https://www.raymond.cc/blog/loading-unsigned-drivers-in-windows-7-and-vista-64-bit-x64/2/


----------



## mikey1964

jhya said:


> Yea, with Windows 10, you can't just disable driver signing in advanced boot up as Win 10 will not let you install kernel level drivers that's unsigned. You will need to enable test mode boot up, then install the modified driver version 2.24
> 
> Read this: https://www.raymond.cc/blog/loading-unsigned-drivers-in-windows-7-and-vista-64-bit-x64/2/


 
 Thanks for taking the time to help, what is the modified driver (version 2.24) you're referring to? Where can it be found? is the Thesycon driver really necessary?


----------



## Jhya

You can download Luckit 2.24 driver. It is the full feature modified driver that will enable DSD. Don't use the neutered driver that came with the mini-CD.

Google "Gustard Luckit 2.24" you will find the download link.


----------



## Benny-x

jhya said:


> I posted same answer on the H10 thread. Don't know if this thread is more appropriate:
> 
> This is a step by step instruction for getting Foobar to work with DSD:
> 
> ...


 
 This is the exact walkthrough that I followed, and I'm usually alright with computer stuff. I guess I'll have to take some time some night and dedicate some effort vs. trying to do it while I was at work. I mentioned that I got mine from Audiostream because I was wondering if there was another good walkthrough anywhere? Not that the one there is bad, but having another point of reference or another person explaining it might help me grasp whatever it was that I missed.
  
 And interesting info from the Cap'n about the Tanly taking the Rega CDT out of rotation. The more I read about the Tanly the more I'd like to get my hands on one. If only in a few months from now I had free cash and could snag one off Taobao. I've still got the U12 though, so I'd like to give that mod list from like a hundred pages ago in the thread a go. 
  
 Looking forward to your X20 comments too. Hanging tight.


----------



## ansi

Hey guys what is this Tanly everyone is talking about? I can't find one for sale anywhere. Is it Chinese? If anyone can point me to a Chinese link to buy one I'll be super grateful.


----------



## bahamot

The only link I can get: http://tanly-audio.blogspot.com/


----------



## BassDigger

ansi said:


> Hey guys what is this Tanly everyone is talking about? I can't find one for sale anywhere. Is it Chinese? If anyone can point me to a Chinese link to buy one I'll be super grateful.


 
  
 +1 Yeah, I'm not finding anything either.


----------



## stuartmc

http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=40193288881

This is the taobao link for Tanly. I left a message on the site and the owner got right back to me.

I still feel like I got the budget version of the Berkeley Audio unit. There are many design similarities.


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> It's interesting to read about comparisons between transports; it seems like most here use their computers and have never used anything else.
> I went straight from CD players (in my speaker system) to a dedicated transport/dac (and headphones). I've never used a computer (except for the direct analogue output  ).
> 
> Did you use your Rega as a transport, for your dac, or just use its on-board dac (plugging it straight into your amp)?




I tried the Rega both ways. At first I used it with its onboard Wolfson Dac so I could compare the sound to the Gustard Sabre chip. Most people claim the Wolfson is very smooth and musical and the Sabre has a bit of glare and hyper detail in comparison. This comparison enabled me to state categorically that in my system, the Gustard had no such glare. I later used the Apollo as just a transport, so that I could compare CD playback with ripped flac files played through my tablet and the Gustard U12, or the Tanly DDC. I also compared CD playback to my Tidal streaming service.


----------



## ansi

stuartmc said:


> http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=40193288881
> 
> This is the taobao link for Tanly. I left a message on the site and the owner got right back to me.
> 
> I still feel like I got the budget version of the Berkeley Audio unit. There are many design similarities.


 
  
 Thanks! Wow that was hard to find. Here is the non-international Taobao link: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.1.bZ8GJX&id=40193288881&ns=1&abbucket=16#detail
  
 2900 rmb is not cheap though. Not sure if I should get one just out of curiosity. @stuartmc you reckon a guy who can't hear a difference between any cables can hear the difference between this and U12?


----------



## stuartmc

ansi said:


> Thanks! Wow that was hard to find. Here is the non-international Taobao link: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.1.bZ8GJX&id=40193288881&ns=1&abbucket=16#detail
> 
> 2900 rmb is not cheap though. Not sure if I should get one just out of curiosity. @stuartmc you reckon a guy who can't hear a difference between any cables can hear the difference between this and U12?




That's a hard one to answer. I can plainly hear the difference in various cables and power cords. The differences in DACs and USB-DDC's is sometimes equally discernable, sometimes more and sometimes less. It's not a problem if you have return privilege, or if there is a good re-sale market.

In direct comparison with the U12, I could plainly hear the improvements wrought by the Tanly. The Tanly was just more "live" - better retrieval of ambient information, better dynamics (micro and macro) and more clarity at the frequency extremes, bottom and top.


----------



## Triplefun

benny-x said:


> This is the exact walkthrough that I followed, and I'm usually alright with computer stuff. I guess I'll have to take some time some night and dedicate some effort vs. trying to do it while I was at work. I mentioned that I got mine from Audiostream because I was wondering if there was another good walkthrough anywhere? Not that the one there is bad, but having another point of reference or another person explaining it might help me grasp whatever it was that I missed.
> 
> And interesting info from the Cap'n about the Tanly taking the Rega CDT out of rotation. The more I read about the Tanly the more I'd like to get my hands on one. If only in a few months from now I had free cash and could snag one off Taobao. I've still got the U12 though, so I'd like to give that mod list from like a hundred pages ago in the thread a go.
> 
> Looking forward to your X20 comments too. Hanging tight.


 
 Try ...
  
 http://schiit.com/guides/dsd-setup


----------



## gregb

Hi everyone.
  
 My english is rather bad. Head-fi might not be the right place for this and I think most people won’t be interested but I’ll do it for the record. There very few threads on Gustard dac out there, so if one day someone ever dig this thread searching for this kind of solution. Here it is :
  
*THE CHEAPEST USB POWER SUPPLY MOD FOR THE X12 :*
*$30 max / Soldering skills needed*
  
Measurement:
 - X12 USB draw less than 10mA, it's really impressive. Any supply with 0.5A or 1A seems an overkill to me.
 - It accepts a very wide range of voltages. Between 3.8v and 5,4v from what I've tested and I think it can be pushed further (maybe 3.3v)
 - It's very sensitive to ripple (50hz) but also to RF (Mhz frequencies, typically any step-up or step-down regulator)
 - Gustard Dac doesn't care : Cut the power supply and USB is off / Power on the 5V and 1 sec later you got sound, it's a very stable and predictable behavior
 - Looking at the hardware and considering low power consumption, I do think power supply is directly wired to the Xmos chip.
 - *So* *what's described here should work **only** with the X12 (and also probably with the X20)*
  
*--> GO UNREGULATED ! *
   - Why unregulated ? Because clean regulation is *(very)* expensive.

 - NIMH is the cheapest possible option to provide very low noise for low current needs. Period.
 - 4 x AA = 4.8v battery pack. You have to drain AA a litte at first (10-15%) to avoid any peak voltage when they are new.
 - With 1900mAh AA, I guarantee at least 24h to 36h of sound, no matter if you use 44khz, 196khz or DSD

 - Charge the battery pack every night for 4h-6h with a timer and a USB wall adapter. The more the battery is drained the more USB supply will charge it. Use an USB wall adapter with the highest voltage you have, mine is 5,25v. 
 - Is this efficient ? Not at all! But considering our low current needs it will work just Ok. In the end, you may still have to change the AA every year / two years.
  
  

  
Results :
 - If you use USB input, I guarantee you will hear the difference right away. 
 - If you can tweak the buffer on your computer, try to go down to few milliSeconds and up to a whole Second of music (with 44khz). If it works, you're good to go. If you can’t and have dropout or lots of jitter, it means your USB connection isn’t stable enough: Tweak your computer, try playing from RAM… or buy a Regen.
 - Tweaking the buffer size is a very good way to test the USB connection. You can literally put a number on the quality of the connection.
  
 - _Is this enough?_ Nimh in itself is below 1uV. Our main problem here is voltage dropout during the day. Considering 0.5v during a 12h session you got a 11uV drop by second. But one second is a lot —> Regarding noise, it's not bad. 
 - _Do I risk to overcharge the battery?_ No, not with +/- 5V
 - _Do I risk to over discharge the battery? _ Yes, charge it every night. At worse you will drain and kill your Nimh cells.
 - _Will my computer accept USB without the 5V line?_  It's working on my mac and linux. No garantuee it will work on yours.
  - _Do I have to unplug the dac when charging?_  No, Dac works on 5V. You don't have to do anything, let the timer do his job.
  

 - _It seems messy. Cheap cables with solder everywhere_ —> It is! But it’s way enough to test if you should go ahead with this solution. That said, keep the data lines (blue and green) clean, short and shielded as much as possible.
 Also, I'm working on a boxed version with fancy cables and a selector to switch USB between my two computers. But that's an other story...
My personal opinion : If the cable change something, it means there’s probably a problem elsewhere.

  
 That's all folks. It’s goofy but it’s the simpliest way to upgrade X12 USB input.
 Again, beware of lithium USB batteries, it's a false good idea.
 I use it since a month with absolutely no problems.


----------



## mikey1964

jhya said:


> You can download Luckit 2.24 driver. It is the full feature modified driver that will enable DSD. Don't use the neutered driver that came with the mini-CD.
> 
> Google "Gustard Luckit 2.24" you will find the download link.


 
 I pointed the inability to playback DSD to the H10/X12 seller, he did some experimentation and came up with a solution that surprised the heck outta me. Use the driver for the SMSL M8 DAC (v2.23), install Foobar + AsioProxy + foo_out_asio + foo_input_sacd + wasapi output support. It works! Under foo_dsd_asio,  Asio driver should be the XMOS USB Audio 2.0, DSD playback method is DoP Marker, NOT Asio Native. 
  
 I'd noted this previously when I couldn't get DSD to play, WAV/MP3 wasn't an issue....when I plugged in the USB cable to the USB2.0 port on my mobo, it was unstable.....playback cut off (same when I played DSD tracks), so I plugged it into a USB3.0 port and it seem to resolve the problem.


----------



## Jhya

Glad you got it to work. Yea, you will need a full featured driver from other manufacturers like SMSL, Thesycon or Luckit WaveIO. The driver that came with the X12 is not full featured and cannot enable DSD.


----------



## Triplefun

I use 2.19 on my x10 and 2.26 on my independent u12 and both process DSD with no difficulty!


----------



## Jhya

triplefun said:


> I use 2.19 on my x10 and 2.26 on my independent u12 and both process DSD with no difficulty!


 
  
 I believe you are running DSD over PCM (DoP) through WASAPI, it's not native mode.
  
 I should probably clarify that with the full featured driver, you get the control panel that lets you adjust the ASIO Buffer Size, plus you will be able to run DSD in *"Native"* mode using ASIO. I'm using LuckIt 2.24 and have native DSD support up to DSD256. Native mode is only available through the full featured ASIO driver.
  
  

  

  

  
 I found a good article review on using 2XDSD upsampling for 5.6MHz playback and the improvements it can provide to your music:
  
 http://www.dagogo.com/eastern-electric-minimax-dac-junior-and-minimax-dac-supreme/3


----------



## Benny-x

triplefun said:


> Try ...
> 
> http://schiit.com/guides/dsd-setup


 
 gracias


----------



## conquerator2

So, what's the current recommended step-up from the U12?
 There's Tanly Audio and Melodious Audio AFAIK, Audio gd notwithstanding.


----------



## abartels

@stuartmc,
  
  
 Any news on SQ Gustard X20?
  
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## genclaymore

Finally got around to order the Gustard X12 and the cables I needed. I hope I don't get hit with duty fee that would be annoying. After it get here, i get my U12 out the closet and enjoy.


----------



## abartels

Hi All,
  
 FYI:
  
 Tomorrow Hydra-Z will be shipped to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 It's a new device so it needs burn-in time.
  
  
  
 I'll keep you guys posted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## m0reilly

good news! alex, which dac will you be demoing units on?


----------



## stuartmc

abartels said:


> @stuartmc,
> 
> 
> Any news on SQ Gustard X20?
> ...


 
 I have some early impressions taken from my listening notes. I had a few good listening sessions over the weekend and directly compared the X-20 to the X-12. As I said before, you can definitely tell they are siblings. My X-12 has benefited from modifying the feat with constrained layer damping and also a good bit of 3M 5100S emi/rfi shielding. Even with these enhancements, the X-20, in stock form, still tops the X-12 in the areas that mean the most to me - soundstaging/imaging and macro/micro dynamics. These are not the kind of improvements that knock you out of your chair and make you wonder how you ever lived without it.  It's more subtle than that. You hear just a bit more with the X-20 - on the same general continuum, but reaching a little farther out on the scale in these critical areas. Here is what my notes were, listening primarily to the Chesky Amazing Binaural Sound Show CD. It should be noted that to switch between the X-20 and X-12 takes a few minutes and level matching with my spl meter added more time to the process.  Therefore, my results aren't as reliable as a quick A/B switch would be.
  
 -- X20 slightly larger acoustic space, while X-12 seems a little constricted with a slight nasal sound to Dr. Chesky's voice.
  
 -- X20 reverberations and sense of acoustic space is more realistic. Dr. Chesky's voice can be more distinctly heard and distinguishable from the reverb/echo. The X-12 does not seperate this out as well. It is harder to make out Dr. Chesky's words - the hall reverb seems louder in comparison to the voice and it doesn't decay as naturally - seems like the X-12's decay is blunted in comparison. 
  
 -- X20 the whisper in the ear test is definitely more "spooky real" than it is on the X-12. Hard to tell what factors are causing this, but I suspect that the higher frequencies are coming through clearer on the X-20.
  
 -- Hair cut test, not as easy to distinguish the differences in the two DACs, but still the X-20 seems to give better image localization particularly when the clippers are going over and around the binaural head. 
  
 --X20 has two clock modes, "standard" and "auto."  The Auto mode improves the sound over the Standard mode in much the same way that the X-20 improves the sound over the X-12. Auto mode portrays a slightly larger, more natural acoustic space.  Decay trails out longer. Slightly better dynamics and image localization is improved. Subtle, yet noticeable and I can pick it out with rapid changes made with the remote control (this is an actual quick A/B where I no longer recall which setting it is on).
  
 -- Just like the X-12, I am very impressed at how natural and grain free the X-20 sounds. There is no "Sabre glare" that I can detect in my setup.  Again, the two are very similar in this regard, but I just relax and go "ahhhhh" that little bit more whenever I have the X-20 in the loop.  I suspect that the beefier power supply, and complete dual mono setup of the X-20 has something to do with this.  I also suspect that new clock scheme represented by the "auto" setting is lowering overall jitter.  The Gustard site says - "The first use of adaptive technology and asynchronous master clock master clock technology, two clock modes free switch.Integer CPLD digital technology."  Who knows what that really means, but my listening impressions tell me that they are really onto something.


----------



## stuartmc

I will be doing more critical listening with my preferred recordings, including some high resolution material from Sound Liaison and Chesky Records (96khz, 24bit) .  This will enable me to comment more on the reproduction of bass, midrange and treble as well as the elusive PRAT which I often refer to as "jump factor" and micro/macro-dynamic scaling.  The way my ears are wired, I can hear imaging/soundstaging subtleties easier than I can discern the slight difference in frequency response and PRAT.


----------



## abartels

m0reilly said:


> good news! alex, which dac will you be demoing units on?


 
  
 Hi m0reilly,
  
 I have a diy cs4398 based dac with seperate extended power rails, 192kHz max only (no DSD, no I2S), but sounding outstanding, very natural and capable of revealing "all the bits and pieces".
 All connected to self made mosfet class-A pre and power amp. Speakers are self made too, 20Hz -3db, low-mid unit 100Hz/6kHz, B&G magnetostat HT all on 6dB crossover.
 Dedicated powerlines to powerfilter, listening distance to speakers about 8 mtr.
  
 Source will be Server 2012 R2 ( DualPC setup) with JPlay 6.2 and AO 1.40, hardware fully optimized.
  
 I will compare to Heavily modded MX-U8
  
 Don't know if I receive Hydra-Z with external psu, otherwise I will use 15600mAh Lion psu.
  
  
 To be continued,
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Alex


----------



## abartels

Hi Stuartmc,
  
 Thank you for your listening impressions, did you listen to it with Tanly connected to it?
 Can the DAC work in slave mode, so clocks on digital interface will provide clock?
 Otherwise DAC is depending on internal clocks, which probably aren't the best available,,,,
  
 Untill now X20 is promising, but in my oppinion it sounds like it's not worth the price difference between X12 and X20.
  
 How many hours did it burn-in? At least 150 I hope?
  
  
 Thanks again and regards,
  
  
  
 Alex


----------



## stuartmc

abartels said:


> Hi Stuartmc,
> 
> Thank you for your listening impressions, did you listen to it with Tanly connected to it?
> Can the DAC work in slave mode, so clocks on digital interface will provide clock?
> ...


 
 Yes, my listening was with the Tanly connected at all times.  I have asked Gustard to tell me more about the difference between "Standard" and "Auto" mode with the clocks.  The description on their product page would suggest that auto allows it to run in Slave mode, but I'm not certain. It certainly sounds better to me in the Auto mode.  I have about 70 hours of burn in on the X-20. I used the Purist Audio break in disc which does tend to speed the process. Also my experience with the X-12 was that it didn't take nearly as much burn in time as the H10. I was 95% there with only 50 hours on the X-12. Although I believe most of the burn in changes are complete, I won't be giving any "final" impressions until sometime next week.  That should be plenty of time to rule out any further break-in phenomena. 
  
 I can't judge for anyone else, but the improvements I am already hearing are well worth the ~$300 price difference.  There is no question in my mind that I will be keeping the X-20 and selling my X-12.  I come from the old, dedicated listening room, big rig school of audio reviewing.  Most of the audiophiles I knew and who actually read my stuff, would not blink at paying 10X that price for commensurate sound improvements.


----------



## nc42acc

New guy here but I have to agree with Stuart on the X20. Mine came today and has been playing since it arrived. Early impressions are OMG! For reference I am comparing to a Line Magnetic 502ca, Oppo 105, Schiit Gungnir. I prefer to hook up new equipment cold out of the box and listen to them bloom as they settle in. The X20 has been one wow after another as I cycle through songs. YMMV


----------



## stuartmc

nc42acc said:


> New guy here but I have to agree with Stuart on the X20. Mine came today and has been playing since it arrived. Early impressions are OMG! For reference I am comparing to a Line Magnetic 502ca, Oppo 105, Schiit Gungnir. I prefer to hook up new equipment cold out of the box and listen to them bloom as they settle in. The X20 has been one wow after another as I cycle through songs. YMMV


 
 That's some very good units to compare to. My X-12 already spanked the Aune S16, the Rega Apollo R, Bel Canto Dac-1, and Meitner BiDat, to name a few. I am now only comparing to the X-12, since that is a known commodity around here.  I think some notes on direct comparisons with the Line Magnetic and the Gungnir would be very helpful.


----------



## nc42acc

Stuart I will be traveling the remaining balance of the week but will be happy to delve into the sonic nuances of each this weekend. The Gungnir in my opinion isn't even in the same league and the LM gets close with some tube rolling. I will get into more detail with each over the weekend.


----------



## stuartmc

nc42acc said:


> Stuart I will be traveling the remaining balance of the week but will be happy to delve into the sonic nuances of each this weekend. The Gungnir in my opinion isn't even in the same league and the LM gets close with some tube rolling. I will get into more detail with each over the weekend.


 
 Thanks 'Matey....and welcome aboard the SS. Gustard, home of the "swabbies."


----------



## stuartmc

A little show and tell of the test bed setup.  I've changed things around and now I have my Standesign rack in the bedroom with Townsend Seismic sinks and other goodies to eliminate physical vibrations and resonance.  My tablet is connected to the Tanly USB-DDC on the top shelf, the second shelf has the H10 and X12, and the third shelf down is the exclusive province of the new X20. On the bottom shelf is the Rega Apollo R, which is getting no love these days because the playback with the Tablet, J-River and the Tanly is just too good.
  

  
  
  
  
  
  
 How's that for a bedside stack?!......is there any wonder why I don't get much sleep these days?


----------



## BassDigger

Tasty, very tasty! Do you find that the rack, cone isolation feet and mechanical isolation, in general, make much difference for headphone listening?


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> Tasty, very tasty! Do you find that the rack, cone isolation feet and mechanical isolation, in general, make much difference for headphone listening?




It has about the same effect as on the big rig. Digital equipment with clock crystals seem to benefit the most, second only to mechanical transports. Changing the resonant frequency of the case/pcb/component part matrix very definitely has an audible effect. Not as striking as damping loudspeakers cabinets, but still very fun to tune.


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> *It has about the same effect as on the big rig.* Digital equipment with clock crystals seem to benefit the most, second only to mechanical transports. Changing the resonant frequency of the case/pcb/component part matrix very definitely has an audible effect. Not as striking as damping loudspeakers cabinets, but still very fun to tune.


 





 Reeeally? You're saying that, even without loudspeaker sourced vibrations, the damping of electronic equipment has not only a marked effect, but the same effect! The effects of component damping are virtually the same, whether you listen through loudspeakers OR headphones?!?
  
 If this is what you mean, then I find that quite shocking; obviously speakers create plenty of vibration that could interfere with other equipment (especially if you're into RooOCK!!!). But if the effects are the same with 'phones, then what is the isolation/damping actually doing?
  
 (Sorry for the OT, BTW)


----------



## abartels

Nice rig stuart!
  
 Glad to hear the X20 performs better than I thought!
 I have a standisign too, but the one with 4 legs on spikes, the damping shelves and other materials are looking good too, very nice to experiment with!
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## conquerator2

Do we have a Tanly link?


----------



## stuartmc

conquerator2 said:


> Do we have a Tanly link?



http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=40193288881


----------



## conquerator2

stuartmc said:


> http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=40193288881


 
 Wouldn't load :/


----------



## stuartmc

conquerator2 said:


> Wouldn't load :/



It's a mobile link. Loads fine on my cell phone.
http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=40193288881


----------



## conquerator2

stuartmc said:


> It's a mobile link. Loads fine on my cell phone.
> http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=40193288881




Yup, works on mobile.
I think I am more inclined to grab a melodious instead... Front USB sucks... I am a function over form all the way but.. This is bothersome.


----------



## stuartmc

conquerator2 said:


> Yup, works on mobile.
> I think I am more inclined to grab a melodious instead... Front USB sucks... I am a function over form all the way but.. This is bothersome.



The Melodious doesn't have an HDMI form I2S connection, so that was even more bothersome to me. I also wanted crystek clock crystals. The front connector is a minor irritation that I can live with.


----------



## b0bb

stuartmc said:


> That's some very good units to compare to. My X-12 already spanked the Aune S16, the Rega Apollo R, Bel Canto Dac-1, and Meitner BiDat, to name a few. I am now only comparing to the X-12, since that is a known commodity around here.  I think some notes on direct comparisons with the Line Magnetic and the Gungnir would be very helpful.


 

 Stuart,
  
 Do you have any future plans to compare the X-20 against the LKS MH-DA003, review sample from Volent/MUsound maybe?
  
 The discrete analog filter stage of the X-20 vs the opamp based LKS should prove interesting. Pity Gustard did not do a discrete I/V converter for the X20.


----------



## m0reilly

hey b0bb, how does the output stage of the lks compare to say the wyred 4 sound dac 1 le/2 models? i'd buy something with a tight analog stage right about now, as the digital front end of many recent units is pretty much laid bare for us to pick on...i can live w/o dsd atm...


----------



## b0bb

m0reilly said:


> hey b0bb, how does the output stage of the lks compare to say the wyred 4 sound dac 1 le/2 models? i'd buy something with a tight analog stage right about now, as the digital front end of many recent units is pretty much laid bare for us to pick on...i can live w/o dsd atm...


 

 The  analog stage of the LKS is the textbook inverting opamp in virtual earth configuration to sink/source all the current from the DAC. This is a variant of the circuit in the ESS data sheet, a hybrid active-passive filter. The first section is a first order active filter part of the I/V converter followed by a second order passive filter, this is the ESS reference filter design with a minor few tweaks.
  
 The W4S DAC2 is a discrete analog stage, it may be a simplified opamp or a Nelson Pass type Zen I/V converter, hard to tell without a closer look.
 The small 8 pin package is an opamp probably some sort of DC servo.
  
 The nice thing is its uniqueness and not a cookie-cutter analog stage like the LKS.

  
  
 On a side note I do not think Gustard built this, it does not look anything like the stuff Gustard makes.


----------



## m0reilly

wyred uses 'bipolar transistors' as a start. after using the gustard bridge/dac combo, i was left wanting a bit more on the analog out side, re mid/low bass


----------



## motberg

stuartmc said:


> The Melodious doesn't have an HDMI form I2S connection, so that was even more bothersome to me. I also wanted crystek clock crystals. The front connector is a minor irritation that I can live with.


 

 I really like the front input...
 My music server is near the listening position to the left side.. so 1.8 M USB cable to the front of the Tanly, then 0.3 M HDMI cable to the DAC seems to me an appropriate path in this configuration.


----------



## stuartmc

Ok, I was wrong. The X20 actually requires MORE break-in time than the X12. I thought I was nearly there with about 70 hours....wrong again. I kept it playing continuously for four more days and now I have hit pay dirt. It sounded very good before, but now it is truly exceptional. I referred before to the X20 being on the same continuum as the X12 and just reaching farther out on the scale. That is still true, but now it is WAY out on the scale. The soundstage is much bigger in every direction. The black silence between images is truly black rather than dark grey and the images themselves are so 3D and palpable that the X12's seem more like cardboard cutouts in comparison. Bass has more depth and character- less of that one note hodge podge when it's way down there. Midrange has more body and bloom than the X12 and the treble is now even more relaxed while at the same time revealing all the details. Wow, just wow! 

Another addition to my system has definitely helped me hear the differences in all their glory. That addition was the Audience AU24 USB cable. This one has separate leads four data and power and uses silver coated OCC copper. It's expensive, costing almost $900 for a 1.5m length, but holy cow, this cable gives amazing results. It lets through more of that low level live mojo that makes everything sound more real. It made hearing the differences between the X12 and X20 a cinch. I seriously would never have thought a USB cable could make such a difference. Yea, I had heard differences with other cables I tried, but this is an order of magnitude more. ..just crazy.

I can now say confidently that if you were on the fence about getting the X20 and spending an extra $300 or so, just do it! If the X12 is an over-achiever at an affordable price, the X20 is a flagship slayer at a stupid good price. You can trust the Captain on this one mates.

More details to come.


----------



## stuartmc

b0bb said:


> Stuart,
> 
> Do you have any future plans to compare the X-20 against the LKS MH-DA003, review sample from Volent/MUsound maybe?
> 
> The discrete analog filter stage of the X-20 vs the opamp based LKS should prove interesting. Pity Gustard did not do a discrete I/V converter for the X20.




I haven't made any plans with regard to the LKS, but I certainly wouldn't turn down the opportunity if it presented itself. If there is enough interest, I might just contact the LKS folks and see if they want to go head to head with the X20.


----------



## m0reilly

i am concerned that a silver coated cable will best a pure silver... and a coated at $900! ey ey ey! do carry on...


----------



## stuartmc

m0reilly said:


> i am concerned that a silver coated cable will best a pure silver... and a coated at $900! ey ey ey! do carry on...



I know....insane, right? I have a line on a very similarly designed cable made in Hong Kong for less than 1/10th the price. I think I'm going to order it and see how it compares.


----------



## m0reilly

it's all good, as i actually scared myself when i could tell a silver usb from a coated copper...you can't make this stuff up.


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> I know....*insane*, right? I have a line on a very* similarly designed cable* made in *H*ong *K*ong *for less than 1/10th the price*. I think I'm going to order it and see how it compares.


 
  
 $900, for a cable!?! Even it gave superior results to a comparison between a $90 and $900 dac, amp or even 'phones, could anyone ever feel 'comfortable' paying that much for little more than a piece of wire? I know I couldn't.
 What is it, when you can get a crap hot multi-component item for less than $1000, that the consumer is paying for with an expensive cable, like that? The cable manufacturers have (deservedly, IMO) given themselves a pretty bad rep. 
  
 I hope that you find the HK cable to be better. I really do!


----------



## stuartmc

bassdigger said:


> $900, for a cable!?! Even it gave superior results to a comparison between a $90 and $900 dac, amp or even 'phones, could anyone ever feel 'comfortable' paying that much for little more than a piece of wire? I know I couldn't.
> What is it, when you can get a crap hot multi-component item for less than $1000, that the consumer is paying for with an expensive cable, like that? The cable manufacturers have (deservedly, IMO) given themselves a pretty bad rep.
> 
> I hope that you find the HK cable to be better. I really do!



This wasn't meant to start a cable war and I don't really want to get into my personal philosophy on this (although you can find it on the Gustard H10 thread). I got this usb cable in for review last week and it helped me so much in my X12 / X20 comparison that I had to mention it to be honest about what was happening. 

If you knew the price of all the other gear that I have pulled out of my audio closet to assist my headphone setup, you would really think I was nuts. It's just stuff I have accumulated over many years of audio reviewing. 

If you want to see more of my thoughts on the effects of cone feet and damping material (since you asked about it earlier), you can search the main H10 thread and find it there. I blathered quite a bit about it when I showed my modifications to the H10 cabinet.


----------



## stuartmc

m0reilly said:


> it's all good, as i actually scared myself when i could tell a silver usb from a coated copper...you can't make this stuff up.




No you can't make it up. It's just too crazy and defies what we think we know about wire, conductivity and digital sound. I never "wanted" to hear any of this!


----------



## abartels

stuartmc said:


> Ok, I was wrong. The X20 actually requires MORE break-in time than the X12. I thought I was nearly there with about 70 hours....wrong again. I kept it playing continuously for four more days and now I have hit pay dirt. It sounded very good before, but now it is truly exceptional. I referred before to the X20 being on the same continuum as the X12 and just reaching farther out on the scale. That is still true, but now it is WAY out on the scale. The soundstage is much bigger in every direction. The black silence between images is truly black rather than dark grey and the images themselves are so 3D and palpable that the X12's seem more like cardboard cutouts in comparison. Bass has more depth and character- less of that one note hodge podge when it's way down there. Midrange has more body and bloom than the X12 and the treble is now even more relaxed while at the same time revealing all the details. Wow, just wow!
> 
> Another addition to my system has definitely helped me hear the differences in all their glory. That addition was the Audience AU24 USB cable. This one has separate leads four data and power and uses silver coated OCC copper. It's expensive, costing almost $900 for a 1.5m length, but holy cow, this cable gives amazing results. It lets through more of that low level live mojo that makes everything sound more real. It made hearing the differences between the X12 and X20 a cinch. I seriously would never have thought a USB cable could make such a difference. Yea, I had heard differences with other cables I tried, but this is an order of magnitude more. ..just crazy.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Stuart,
  
 Yes, that sounds a lot better then your previous reports about X20 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Looks like this is a winner 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Keep us posted!
  
 Cheers  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Alex


----------



## stuartmc

abartels said:


> Hi Stuart,
> 
> Yes, that sounds a lot better then your previous reports about X20 :bigsmile_face:
> Looks like this is a winner :bigsmile_face:
> ...




Alex, I should have listened to you more about the break-in. At least I admit it when I am wrong. LOL


----------



## abartels

stuartmc said:


> Alex, I should have listened to you more about the break-in. At least I admit it when I am wrong. LOL


 
  
 Hahahahaha Stuart, that's a good one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, you can say in common that EVERY audio device (cables / electronics) needs about 150 hours (between 6 and 7 days).
 Sometimes it uses a few days more to reach near %100.
  
 In some cases it needs almost 3 weeks of burn-in time, but those cases are rather exceptional.
  
  
 Cheers Stuart 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Alex


----------



## hotw

stuartmc said:


> Ok, I was wrong. The X20 actually requires MORE break-in time than the X12. I thought I was nearly there with about 70 hours....wrong again. I kept it playing continuously for four more days and now I have hit pay dirt. It sounded very good before, but now it is truly exceptional. I referred before to the X20 being on the same continuum as the X12 and just reaching farther out on the scale. That is still true, but now it is WAY out on the scale. The soundstage is much bigger in every direction. The black silence between images is truly black rather than dark grey and the images themselves are so 3D and palpable that the X12's seem more like cardboard cutouts in comparison. Bass has more depth and character- less of that one note hodge podge when it's way down there. Midrange has more body and bloom than the X12 and the treble is now even more relaxed while at the same time revealing all the details. Wow, just wow!
> 
> Another addition to my system has definitely helped me hear the differences in all their glory. That addition was the Audience AU24 USB cable. This one has separate leads four data and power and uses silver coated OCC copper. It's expensive, costing almost $900 for a 1.5m length, but holy cow, this cable gives amazing results. It lets through more of that low level live mojo that makes everything sound more real. It made hearing the differences between the X12 and X20 a cinch. I seriously would never have thought a USB cable could make such a difference. Yea, I had heard differences with other cables I tried, but this is an order of magnitude more. ..just crazy.
> 
> ...


 
 How much time take to burn in X12?
 If X12 played 50 hours, if X20 played more than 150 hours would that comparison be unreasonable?
  
 Edit: Btw no offence


----------



## abartels

Probably x12 had a few thousend hours of "burn-in",,,,,,,,,


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> This wasn't meant to start a cable war and I don't really want to get into my personal philosophy on this (although you can find it on the Gustard H10 thread). I got this usb cable in for review last week and it helped me so much in my X12 / X20 comparison that I had to mention it to be honest about what was happening.
> 
> If you knew the price of all the other gear that I have pulled out of my audio closet to assist my headphone setup, you would really think I was nuts. It's just stuff I have accumulated over many years of audio reviewing.
> 
> If you want to see more of my thoughts on the effects of cone feet and damping material (since you asked about it earlier), you can search the main H10 thread and find it there. I blathered quite a bit about it when I showed my modifications to the H10 cabinet.


 
  
 Sorry if I've come across a little 'confrontational', that wasn't my intention. Surprised and a little flabbergasted, perhaps. But not confrontational.
  
 I've read the H10 thread, but maybe I skimmed past your thoughts about damping etc. I'll have another look. I'd just like to understand if it's commonly believed that damping helps headphone systems, and if there're theories as to why this could be.
  
 Regarding cables: I'll try and keep this OT short, but although I'm a believer in the benefits of good cables (Oh yes, brothers and sisters, I belieeeeve. Praise the lord! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), it's a source of frustration that most of the cable manufacturers are just profiteering, pure and simple. (And any mention of pricey cables tends to switch me into 'rant mode'! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
 Despite our love of music, audio equipment and all the gizmos that go with it, I think that things should be kept in context. The price of many cables is maybe the worst case of people losing sight of what they're actually paying for. It just makes me cringe, a little, when I think that this has been forgotten!
  
 Although I'm not familiar (or maybe I am, but just don't know it) with your reviews, your apparent extensive and expansive experience (along with your shipmate friendly writing style 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) is what makes your thoughts of particular interest; regardless of asking price, learning about what makes good audio reproduction equipment is surely the desire of most of us here.


----------



## stuartmc

No worries 'mate. I didn't take that as confrontational at all. Actually it was the price craziness and obsessive nature of most audiophiles that made me leave the high-end audio scene for nearly 15 years. The only thing that brought me back was the price friendlier world of personal hi-fi and the amicable gang right here on the good ship Gustard.


----------



## Noodlz

at the risk of goin in OT on this thing, would love to hear about your thoughts on the HK usb. Looking to upgrade my usb cable (using ghent audio usb cables right now) in the future before making the upgrade to the X20, but don't want to spend as much on the cable as the amp lol.


----------



## stuartmc

noodlz said:


> at the risk of goin in OT on this thing, would love to hear about your thoughts on the HK usb. Looking to upgrade my usb cable (using ghent audio usb cables right now) in the future before making the upgrade to the X20, but don't want to spend as much on the cable as the amp lol.




Nobody does. Even at reviewer accommodation pricing, the Audience is very pricey. I may rearrange things, so I may need a 2m length. The HK company, called A-B systems has one for $45. Shipping will probably add $10 to that, but I think it's well worth the experiment.


----------



## money4me247

noodlz said:


> at the risk of goin in OT on this thing, would love to hear about your thoughts on the HK usb. Looking to upgrade my usb cable (using ghent audio usb cables right now) in the future before making the upgrade to the X20, but don't want to spend as much on the cable as the amp lol.


 
 lol well with digital cables, there is even less scientific evidence pointing to perceivable sonic changes and actually scientific evidence that leans towards no sonic changes based on how digital cables work. waste of money in my personal opinion. of course, ymmv & definitely do not want this thread to devolve into a tedious cable debate.


----------



## railrus

then again how does power cord affect sound? was a non believer till i heard the first after market pc and power distributor. feel pc /distributor makes a big difference like interconnects. in case you are wondering what i am using
  
 nas to computer
 asus stx digital out to
 benchmark dac2 hgc driving 
  
 dynaudio bm5a mkii / rythmik f12 or 
 h10 with h560
  
 distributors sine mega 6 (was using oyaide mtb-6)
 power cable mainly acrolink 4030
 assorted connectors from oyaide 
  
 this hobby is driving me crazy!


----------



## BassDigger

money4me247 said:


> lol well with digital cables, there is even less scientific evidence pointing to perceivable sonic changes and actually scientific evidence that leans towards no sonic changes based on how digital cables work. waste of money in my personal opinion. of course, ymmv & definitely do not want this thread to devolve into a tedious cable debate.


 
  
 Yeah, _that_ debate! Science vs anecdote. Measurements vs logical phallacies. Laboratory conditions vs time and familiarity. Who needs it?
 As far as I'm concerned the only certainty is that expensive cables, whatever their purpose, are a rip-off!
 End of discussion.


----------



## m0reilly

bassdigger said:


> Yeah, _that_ debate! Science vs anecdote. Measurements vs logical phallacies. Laboratory conditions vs time and familiarity. Who needs it?
> As far as I'm concerned the only certainty is that expensive cables, whatever their purpose, are a rip-off!
> End of discussion.


 
*The most difficult thing about gaining knowledge is accepting that what you know is only what you think... *


----------



## m0reilly

stuartmc said:


> ...The HK company, called A-B systems...


 
 thanks for the tip! some good deals to be had there


----------



## BassDigger

m0reilly said:


> *The most difficult thing about gaining knowledge is accepting that what you know is only what you think... *


 
  





...err? Are you agreeing, disagreeing....???


----------



## stuartmc

The X20 is definitely a keeper, so I decided it was time to return my X12 to stock form. I put the stock feet back on and removed the 3M AB5100S  emi absorbing material so that I could apply it to the X20.  The X20 is a lot easier to get into because the top plate lifts straight off once the small screws are removed -

  
 Once inside, I was immediately struck by the build quality.  This unit is seriously designed and put together!  I had seen the pictures on Gustard's Taobao store, but there is nothing quite like seeing it and touching it first hand.
  

  
 The Gustard boys have gone to great lengths to shield and isolate the various stages. It really looks like three cabinets in one with the solid metal dividers and the jumpers running from one section to another.  I expect that the AB5100S Material will not make as big an audible improvement in the X20 because of this, but I still feel it is a good prophylactic measure.  I beefed up the shielding of the dividing walls and also applied pieces to the major IC's. 
  

  
 The X20 is now back in the wrack and I'm letting things warm up for a few hours before giving her another listen.  I have one other change to my system that I incorporated last night. I decided to bring the power conditioning beast, the Tice Power Block III, upstairs and use it as my first line of defense in front of the Quantum Octave power strip that I have been using all along.  I have also been using a Quantum Symphony in the power circuit for some added pixie dust magic electrons mojo.
  

  
  
 I used the power amplifier circuit on the Tice, so I don't have any power constrictions.  The combination - Tice and Quantum, gave me the best listening experience I have had to date.  The Tice TPT treatment has always provided a more realistic, holographic soundstage in my big rig and I was pleased to hear the same effects in my headphone setup.  
  

  
  
 I couldn't be more pleased with the X20. My version, the X20U, which has the onboard USB daughter card and remote, costs $866.  That, my friends, is ridiculous for this kind of build and sound quality.  I will be posting more from my listening notes and an additional comparison of the AB5100S treated X20 to the stock X12.
  
 Cheers Swabbies!


----------



## b0bb

stuartmc said:


> The X20 is definitely a keeper, so I decided it was time to return my X12 to stock form.....


 
 Great update on the X20 impressions, thanks.


----------



## Walderstorn

Wish it was available on Europe since my h10 customs happening... if some1 knows an EU store that sells it i would be thankful.


----------



## vince741

@Walderstorn: Kidult Online will have it and will ship it from the UK.
 Sadly, the price and the release date is still unknown for this shop.
  
 e/ By the way, thanks @GioF71 for the intel.


----------



## Walderstorn

Yeah thanks @vince741. Im still deciding if im waiting for this, buy a gungnir or an audio-gd nfb1s.


----------



## stuartmc

After about six hours of warm up time, I gave the X20 another listen with the AB5100s installed. Eee-gads!...where did that beautiful treble air and hall space disappear to? It was dead quiet and black as a total eclipse, but sounded a little dull and plodding compared to it's previous sound. OK, perhaps I went too far. Perhaps the X20 keeps emi at bay on its own with the separate chambers, and treating all the ic's and crystals is just too much. Perhaps the 5100S material has too much mechanical damping properties and is adversely effecting the designed in resonant signature of these components. Regardless of what is causing it, I just couldn't leave it like this. So...off came the top and out came all the material on ic's and crystals. I just left the material on the case walls and interior dividers. What I removed, I replaced onto the top lid right over the transformers.

I waited till this morning to give it another listen....ahhhh, now that's what I'm talking about! The air and space are back in all their glory and do I hear...yes, I believe I do...It's just a bit quieter/blacker between images and there appears to be a little more separation. Captain guinea pig is a very happy boy!

Let me be the first to say it - the X20 is the H10 of dacs! Those of you who own the H10 and have been following the H10 thread, know what this means and it's huge. The X12 came close, but was just shy of the magnitude of affordable goodness that the H10 represents. In my humble opinion the X20 equals, or even exceeds it.

Cheers Swabbies!


----------



## Walderstorn

Cool @stuartmc now you can send me your unit


----------



## Excellence 5

Hello to everybody.

 I, too, have got the GUSTARD DAC-X20U. I would say that i am very happy with it

 BUT

 at the moment i am totally unable to play *DSD native* up to 64 or 128. The machine also doesn't go up to 32bit -24bit at most.

 The X20U is connected via USB, I am on Windows 10 Ent. 64bit, with foobar2000 (v1.3.8) and i think that every ASIO & SACD plugins were installed correctly.
  
 Anyone, please?
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## evillamer

@stuartmc
  
 Really nice to see your experiments with the 3m AB5100s
  
 Just found some interesting anti-vibration products. This is used to stop vibration on microscopes so I think they would do very well to stablize audio equipment as well? Relatively in-expensive compare to some of the niche isolation feets/platforms:
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Richter-Anti-Vibration-Pad-Combo-Pack/dp/B00792VLZA


----------



## GioF71

excellence 5 said:


> Hello to everybody.
> 
> I, too, have got the GUSTARD DAC-X20U. I would say that i am very happy with it
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello,
 are you using "foo_dsd_asio" as the output device? This becomes available when you install ASIOProxyInstall-0.x.x.exe


----------



## Joong

Anybody did compare x-20 to Yulong DA8 or Matrix x sabre?


----------



## BassDigger

post #3046  (H10 thread)
  
 Quote:


giof71 said:


> Hello Rynsin.
> I still could not execute the test you were asking (switching my chains for more in-depth comparison of the reasons for better audio), but I have more information to share about 'bits are bits'.
> They are, but only if we simply talk about what is going to be played (the bits).
> The way (and the timing) the bits are sent to the dac is another topic. Also, interferences come into play. A signal is essential something analog, even when it carries digital data.
> ...


 
  
 My actual understanding of the technicalities is probably no better than yours, but I think that you've got the right idea.
  
 There are many different protocols for the transport, and use, of digital data. 'Bits are bits', in our field of interest, only really applies when we are copying, or moving a music file, e.g. from cd-rom to pc (using a craptastic cd drive), or even sending the file over the internet. This is all FTP and 'bits are bits' are bits; it doesn't matter, as long as the file is complete, the data is intact; it's the same data at the end of the process, as it was at the beginning. E.g. downloading a flac file doesn't lose any of its quality. And that data may have travelled around the world a few times!
  
 But when you 'play' that flac file, using whatever hard and soft ware, it becomes music; it becomes real in the time dimension. So when you use a pc, as your source, the music begins to exist in your computer. The music, in digital form (not analogue), then has to be transmitted from inside your computer and through your connection chain, to your dac. This is when most of the damage and corruption of the signal occurs. Most of this corruption is known as jitter, or timing errors.
  
 People tend to regard jitter as just a single phenomenon. But i think that it's more all-encompassing than that. Timing is what music is all about. Timing is what makes music musical. Timing is not only the beat, rhythm and tempo, it's the frequencies that create the notes themselves. So if something has a susceptibility to timing errors, aka jitter, i think that some emphasis should be placed on choosing components that are key to reducing the effects of this. This is why some people, myself included, prefer to use a dedicated transport.


----------



## BassDigger

post #3056 (H10 thread)
  
 Quote:


spaech said:


> It's interesting to break it down conceptually in order to figure out what's plausible and what kinds of perceptible artifacts we might experience from issues like usb timing errors. I think *relating it to beat and tempo can be a little misleading because we can only perceive changes in time/tempo in the order of 10+ milliseconds.* *The entire waveform shifting in the order of 10+ms resulting in perceptible alteration to beat/temp is not a plausible manifestation of usb timing jitter* -- the waveform is only going to be shifted temporally on very small time scales closer to the actual sample rate. So for the sake of clarity, when were talking about the audible manifestation of timing jitter, it's not of this kind where the entire waveform is being shifted perceptibly.
> 
> *So what might timing jitter actually sound like?* If it were purely random noise resulting in sampling points being shifted temporally relative to one another, that would only manifest as frequency changes in the 22khz+ range (assuming we're at 44.1 sample rate), i.e. outside the range of human hearing. So we're not going to hear that kind of jitter. What we might hear however is the cumulative effect of a consistent timing error over time, resulting in a fundamental frequency of minor variations in the waveform's amplitude. Which we would expect to manifest as a sort of "warble" on top of the sound. The question in my mind is how common this actually is in practice and whether it does manifest in a perceptible way, and that comes down to measurements and blind listening tests.
> 
> The idea here isn't to dismiss the possibility of jitter effects having a perceptible manifestation, but to narrow down plausible mechanisms and expected sonic colouring it might cause. If we understand what jitter can actually do in practice, then if we're experiencing artifacts, we can avoid attributing it to the wrong cause.


 
  
 I think that you've mentioned before that you're a scientist (maybe in a different field). Am I right? Anyway, your understanding seems to be deeper than mine, and your thought process is certainly more systematic!
  
 I guess I was being intentionally generalistic; I just think that jitter is probably more of a culprit than can currently be explained. But, I wasn't suggesting that we can actually hear jitter; rather that its effects could have influences on any aspect of musical reproduction, through its effects on any process or equipment, or even its effects on how we perceive the music.
  
 In the end, it's the sound that counts. The challenge is for science to prove where the correlations are genuine and discount the incorrect theories (and internet ramblings of bass loving posters). To define what are the exact effects and manifestations, of jitter, all the way through the chain, to the human brain. It's a long path (maybe not so long, in my case). But it seems to me that, as understanding improves, jitter has an ever growing list of misdemeanors!


----------



## NightFlight

bassdigger said:


> I think that you've mentioned before that you're a scientist (maybe in a different field). Am I right? Anyway, your understanding seems to be deeper than mine, and your thought process is certainly more systematic!
> 
> I guess I was being intentionally generalistic; I just think that jitter is probably more of a culprit than can currently be explained. But, I wasn't suggesting that we can actually hear jitter; rather that its effects could have influences on any aspect of musical reproduction, through its effects on any process or equipment, or even its effects on how we perceive the music.
> 
> In the end, it's the sound that counts. The challenge is for science to prove where the correlations are genuine and discount the incorrect theories (and internet ramblings of bass loving posters). To define what are the exact effects and manifestations, of jitter, all the way through the chain, to the human brain. It's a long path (maybe not so long, in my case). But it seems to me that, as understanding improves, jitter has an ever growing list of misdemeanors!


 
  
 I'm going to jump in here and say that your average objectivist thinks of music as a flat sinusoidal wave for simplicity. We all agree that is incorrect, but arguments tend to take only basic period and amplitude into account.  Music is an entirely different animal, as this picture is compounded exponentially several by several orders of magnatude. First, you have to take the interaction of literally thousands (millions?) of different of frequencies interacting into complex harmonics. Timing between these interactions compound the timing issue. Now add amplitude, the compressive nature of air as the medium, reflections and how this river of checkpoints interacts. All this picked up by a microphone and captured and reproduced. Twice digitized before it yet again hits an analogue decoder - the ear and brain. 3 dimensions decoded by two ears based on arrival time requires at least .001/s accuracy.  The sum nature of this transmission is delicate to say the least. You need low jitter to achieve what a trained ear can perceive as a pleasurable musical experience. It has to be several order of magnatude lower to keep it all straight.
  
 To cap it off, we are all made differently, with different types of intelligence. Audio intelligence being part nature and nurture. So for someone to tell another they can't hear a difference and therefore no-one else can either - is just plain ignorant.


----------



## Excellence 5

giof71 said:


> Hello,
> are you using "foo_dsd_asio" as the output device? This becomes available when you install ASIOProxyInstall-0.x.x.exe


 

 Yes, that output is available and was selected.
  
 I think that something is wrong into the SACD menu. Please, look at the picture here: http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee483/Uomo_Avvisato/Videoproiettore/problema%20foobar%20DSD_zpsbboay2bk.png .
  
 I see no "ASIO Driver Mode" in the menu while the other voices remain unactive...


----------



## GioF71

vince741 said:


> @Walderstorn: Kidult Online will have it and will ship it from the UK.
> Sadly, the price and the release date is still unknown for this shop.
> 
> e/ By the way, thanks @GioF71 for the intel.


 
  
 You're welcome!


----------



## GioF71

mandrake50 said:


> Try running that latency checker  sometime. It showed me some interesting differences between what I thought should be relatively equivalent computers.


 
  
 I tried. The latency is consistently under 500nsec with DPC Latency Checker.
 Also, I tried again the Sanskrit with my office PC. It has USB3 ports, and there is no USB2 port available.
 The DAC does not work at all. It works (sort of) only with Wasapi PUSH, not event. Forget high res, nothing works in this case.
 Also, my M2Tech Hiface 2 shows similar issues with this pc. I think it may be related to the USB3 ports, is it possible? I set buffers as high as possible in the device's own control panel. Nothing helped.
  
 What really surprised me in the end is that on this pc, on the same usb3 port, the FiiO X5 (used as USB dac) works perfectly @ any sampling rate.
 Maybe this can be due to the fact the FiiO works from battery and only uses usb power to charge its battery? Or its usb implementation is simply better?
  
 Also, as I mentioned before, all this stuff works fine with my other work pc, which is a desktop with an old Core 2 Duo Q6600. No issues here on Debian Linux with the Sanskrit.
 And, of course, the Sanskrit works at home on the Windows PC as well as with the linux dedicated music player.
  
 Any further ideas to try?


----------



## GioF71

excellence 5 said:


> Yes, that output is available and was selected.
> 
> I think that something is wrong into the SACD menu. Please, look at the picture here: http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee483/Uomo_Avvisato/Videoproiettore/problema%20foobar%20DSD_zpsbboay2bk.png .
> 
> I see no "ASIO Driver Mode" in the menu while the other voices remain unactive...


 
  
 Please also check the asio proxy configuration.
 Mine is like this:


----------



## adamgdansk

So - where one can buy X20 now? buy and not wait a few weeks for it to be produced etc?


----------



## Joong

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X20U-Super-Ultimate-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/111708547958?hash=item1a02592b76
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X20U-Super-Ultimate-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/291524026447?hash=item43e02fa04f


----------



## adamgdansk

Does not look like any of these would be available for immediate dispatch?


----------



## Juventino77

Has anyone managed to get hold of one?
 Very interested to hear thoughts on this unit.


----------



## adamgdansk

I co tamtędy sellers. Looks like the will have x20 for shipping approx.15th September. In a month...


----------



## stuartmc

juventino77 said:


> Has anyone managed to get hold of one?
> Very interested to hear thoughts on this unit.




Let "search" be your friend. I have been commenting on the X20 (which I now have) just a few pages back.


----------



## Excellence 5

*@GioF71*, thanks for suggesting but DSD over PCM doesn't work for me. The display always shows "Source USB PCM"...
  
 Also, does anyone know how to connect X20U and PC via *IIS* ? Seems another issue pretty hard to address...


----------



## GioF71

excellence 5 said:


> *@GioF71*, thanks for suggesting but DSD over PCM doesn't work for me. The display always shows "Source USB PCM"...
> 
> Also, does anyone know how to connect X20U and PC via *IIS* ? Seems another issue pretty hard to address...


 
  
 Hello, aside recommending the check if you have some DSPs active, as I unfortunately don't own a X20, I can't help you. Maybe stuartmc can 
  
 About the second question: you need a dedicated interface like the Gustard U12, which can give you multiple outputs (including I2S over HDMI).
 The U12 connects to your computer via USB.
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## Triplefun

excellence 5 said:


> *@GioF71*, thanks for suggesting but DSD over PCM doesn't work for me. The display always shows "Source USB PCM"...
> 
> Also, does anyone know how to connect X20U and PC via *IIS* ? Seems another issue pretty hard to address...


 
  
 I've been looking for an IIS interface myself. Googling i2s and PCI-e you get http://www.pinkfaun.nl/portal/productaanbod/dac-streaming-audio/1440-i2s-bridge with limited information on pricing other than a NL shop. There's also a Taiwanese CMedia sound card http://www.cmedia.com.tw/ProductsDetail/C1Serno-1/C2Serno-7/PSerno-54.html which includes an I2S port. Unfortunately no indication of DSD support.
  
 I would be interested in what other people find, ideally an externalised DisplayPort interface with i2s output - can a Raspberry be modified to support this option?


----------



## genclaymore

The Gustard U12 which has I2S on it which you can use to plug into the X20's I2S.


----------



## gregb

> can a Raspberry be modified to support this option?


 
  
 On paper no modification needed, but you're on your own to make it work
  
 http://archphile.org/howto/i2s-dacs-and-the-raspberry-pi/


----------



## b0bb

triplefun said:


> I would be interested in what other people find, ideally an externalised DisplayPort interface with i2s output - can a Raspberry be modified to support this option?


 
 The Raspberry Pi I2S uses conventional single-ended 3.3V signalling. Gustard I2S uses low voltage differential signalling (LVDS), the two are incompatible.
  
 For starters, you need a converter module like Twisted Pear's teleporter LVDS tranciever to connect the RPi to the Gustard
 http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/teleporter.aspx
  
 AudioGD make a similar kit
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/I2Skits/I2SEN.htm
  
 In either case, some work needs to be done to make sure the signal is correctly connected from one end to the other, and other similar integration issues, it is a complicated exercise.


----------



## BassDigger

You've answered something that I was wondering about: Are different I2S connections compatible? Could you use an RJ45 to HDMI I2S cable? Is the difference just the physical connectors?
 It seems not!


----------



## GioF71

bassdigger said:


> You've answered something that I was wondering about: Are different I2S connections compatible? Could you use an RJ45 to HDMI I2S cable? Is the difference just the physical connectors?
> It seems not!


 
  
 yes the connectors are different.
 The RJ45 is the same as the network cable connectors.
 But I read the regular network cable are not suitable, though I did not verify!


----------



## genclaymore

That Gustard X20 did look interesting but it was way over what I was willing to spend let alone had.


----------



## johnzz4

Stuart - I've been following your posts, and I decided to bite the bullet and give the x20u a try based on my positive experience with the H10.
  
 I was running Chromebook USB>Meridian Director DAC>Gustard H10>LCD-X and found the sound overly-bright.  I'm admittedly sensitive to too much treble and was concerned the LCD-X wasn't a good fit for me.  Out of curiousity, I swapped out the Meridian DAC with the DAC section of a Nuforce HDP and the brightness tamed right down and I find this setup to be fun and non-fatiguing.  That said, I'm pretty convinced the Nuforce DAC is the weak link in my system, hence my decision to move to he x20u.
  
 So, given my source is listening to 44.1khz FLACs streaming through Tidal, will I benefit greatly from the U12, or do you expect I'll be happy with the USB interface on the x20u?
  
 Thanks Stuart - and anyone else that can offer some advice.
  
 BTW, Stuart, not to spook you, but they halted shipments of the x20u until mid-September based on something they needed to change.  Not sure of the details, but you haven't had any issues, right??  Can't wait...


----------



## stuartmc

johnzz4 said:


> Stuart - I've been following your posts, and I decided to bite the bullet and give the x20u a try based on my positive experience with the H10.
> 
> I was running Chromebook USB>Meridian Director DAC>Gustard H10>LCD-X and found the sound overly-bright.  I'm admittedly sensitive to too much treble and was concerned the LCD-X wasn't a good fit for me.  Out of curiousity, I swapped out the Meridian DAC with the DAC section of a Nuforce HDP and the brightness tamed right down and I find this setup to be fun and non-fatiguing.  That said, I'm pretty convinced the Nuforce DAC is the weak link in my system, hence my decision to move to he x20u.
> 
> ...




I think the USB daughter card on the X20 is pretty good. It's essentially the same thing as on the X12. I did notice an improvement when using the U12 and the I2S interface. Bigger stage, smoother top end and better low level resolution. My Tanly DDC kicks it up another notch.

I'm aware of the stock delay. It is a defective on/off switch that can fail over time. I haven't had any problems and I don't turn mine off and on very often. Since the X20 doesn't draw that much power and doesn't generate much heat, I just leave it on most of the time.


----------



## stuartmc

I'd give it a go in stock configuration and if you think you need to smooth things out a bit, then definitely get the U12. I know there are some guys that actually prefer the sound straight into the X12, but those that run I2S, almost universally prefer the sound with the U12.


----------



## m0reilly

i would also suggest the i2s/ u12 or other usb bridge w/hdmi/balanced i2s out. the resultes should be a step above.


----------



## Arnotts

I'm one of those people that has gone back and forth on which connection I preferred.
  
 The U12 adds a smoothness to the sound which sometimes works favourably. It may help alleviate what some people consider "glare" or "digital" sound.
  
 However, I also find that going straight to the USB input of the X12 or the M-DAC results in a more precise and quicker sound, with a little bit more sharpness. This is definitely a matter of preference, but I feel that skipping the U12 offers a truer experience of the DAC/amp. Even with I2S, I found the U12 adds too much of its smoother, less precisely imaged sound. 
  
 Adding a Wyrd into the signal chain to feed the U12 also improved things. It became more precise, while still being smooth. If you prefer this type of sound, this would be a very good thing.
  
 At this current point in time, I've taken the U12 out of my signal chain. I do not intend to add it back in.


----------



## nc42acc

I added a U12 to my system and when comparing it with and without the X20 I finally settled on without. I am going to try the U12 with the Gungnir and LM502ca. So far the 502ca is edging out the X20 but they are very close. My work schedule has kept me running so not much time for serious comparisons. 

No issues with my X20 switch. I do cut mine on and off since I travel.


----------



## stuartmc

nc42acc said:


> I added a U12 to my system and when comparing it with and without the X20 I finally settled on without. I am going to try the U12 with the Gungnir and LM502ca. So far the 502ca is edging out the X20 but they are very close. My work schedule has kept me running so not much time for serious comparisons.
> 
> No issues with my X20 switch. I do cut mine on and off since I travel.




My thoughts on using the U12 really should be reserved to the X12, since I haven't used it much at all with the X20. I would agree that the U12 has a smoothing effect that may take the edge off and make things sound less live. The U12 may be beneficial to those that might find the X20 a little too detailed or aggressive. I'm not one of them. Now, the Tanly DDC with the X20 is a completely different story. Connecting the Tanly with I2S and running the X20 on "automatic" clock mode, is a revelation -goose bumps time. 

If you think the X20 is very close to the Line Magnetic Dac, that is high praise indeed. My cohort, Ken Micalleff at Positive-Feedback, thinks the LM is superb and a great value at $1800....and he's a vinyl guy. I guess that would make the X20, at less than half the price, ummm, I don't know, maybe the H10 of dacs? Lol. I'd like to hear more about this comparison if you get the time.


----------



## nc42acc

Stuart where can you purchase the Tanly USB interface? Thanks.


----------



## nc42acc

Has anyone tried the L.K.S Audio MH-DA003 DAC. Looks great on paper.


----------



## stuartmc

nc42acc said:


> Stuart where can you purchase the Tanly USB interface? Thanks.




I found Tanly on taobao. I used the email link there and corresponded directly with Mr. Tam.

http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=40193288881


----------



## hotw

arnotts said:


> I'm one of those people that has gone back and forth on which connection I preferred.
> 
> The U12 adds a smoothness to the sound which sometimes works favourably. It may help alleviate what some people consider "glare" or "digital" sound.
> 
> ...


 

 Among aes, coax, optical and I2S, which one you think is the best?


----------



## BassDigger

hotw said:


> Among aes, coax, optical and I2S, which one you think is the best?


 
  
 I can't speak for any Gustard products, nor have I ever done any direct comparisons. But there should be only one winner there, that's I2S; it's the only one that includes the clocking information.
 Cable runs have to be kept very short (like < 30cm) though!
  
 Optical has the worst rep (because it has another conversion process), but will give electrical isolation (from a 'noisy' pc).
  
 So:
  
 I2S
 AES (balanced)
 Coax (spdif)
 optical (toslink)
  
 ...in that order.


----------



## motberg

I would add, that for the SPDIF, I had improvement using a 75 Ohm BNC RF attenuator
 And when I was using optical, a higher quality cable could bring the output SQ close or equal to the coax (I was using Van Den Hul Optocoupler)


----------



## johnzz4

Thanks for the replies guys..  I'm definitely going to try the x20u direct to the USB first and see how it goes.  I'll probably explore the Tanly as a possible future upgrade.  This all leads to another question.  When I had the Meridian DAC, it was stated on several threads that the USB benefited from a clean power source, so I purchased the ifi USB power supply to clean up the USB power.  On the x20u, does the USB daughter card get power from the USB connection, or is it internally powered?  Would I possibly benefit from using the ifi USB power supply with the x20u??


----------



## johnzz4

stuartmc said:


> I found Tanly on taobao. I used the email link there and corresponded directly with Mr. Tam.
> 
> http://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?id=40193288881


 
 Stuart, do you have contact info?  I haven't brushed up on my mandarin lately..


----------



## stuartmc

johnzz4 said:


> Stuart, do you have contact info?  I haven't brushed up on my mandarin lately..


 I initially didn't have any other than the taobao contact and I used Google translate with the chrome browser to get me 90% of the way there. I later got a direct email contact, and I'm sure Tam wouldn't mind me putting it out there. It's tanly.tam@gmail.com


----------



## johnzz4

Thanks - hopefully he won't mind some additional business 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Well, I'll be back once I have some impressions on the x20u.  Fingers crossed it pairs up well with the H10 and the LCDXs... I'm optimistic.


----------



## GioF71

bassdigger said:


> I can't speak for any Gustard products, nor have I ever done any direct comparisons. But there should be only one winner there, that's I2S; it's the only one that includes the clocking information.
> Cable runs have to be kept very short (like < 30cm) though!
> 
> Optical has the worst rep (because it has another conversion process), but will give electrical isolation (from a 'noisy' pc).
> ...




Hello Bassdigger.
30 cm seems very short.
It was hard for me to bend a 60cm HDMI (a bit tick I have to admit) to connect the u12 to the x12. They are stacked, with the h10 between them (obligatory choice due to form factors).
I also had to twist (very lightly) the cable to match connector orientations.
A 30cm cable would not have fit at all in my set-up. Maybe so without the h10 in the middle, but I 'm not sure.

Edit: autocorrection errors!


----------



## BassDigger

30cms is a guesstimate. As i recently found out, there are different kinds of I2S signals; maybe some of them work over a longer run, than others.
 But, I still understand that I2S connections should be kept as short as possible. I don't actually know why, but I don't doubt it.
  
 Yes, you're right; it does require (hopefully) a sympathetic position/angle of connector, and some strategic positioning of equipment.
  
 Below is my own I2S connection:
  

  

  
 The QLS qa550 transport is positioned (at an angle) on top of my H10 amp _(nearest and out of focus)_, and is connected to my vintage dac, underneath the H10.
  
 The cable itself is DIY _(perhaps the bits of foil give that away!) _and made specifically for this application. There isn't much scope, if any, for different positioning. This is the compromise, to have the best possible transport to dac connection.
  
 I really don't know how people manage with Gustard's HDMI connections!
  
 Edit: 2nd pic added


----------



## Triplefun

What is the latest windows xmos usb driver I can use with the X10 please  and what if any would be the differences compared to the v19 I currently use.


----------



## Wynnytsky

stuartmc said:


> I initially didn't have any other than the taobao contact and I used Google translate with the chrome browser to get me 90% of the way there. I later got a direct email contact, and I'm sure Tam wouldn't mind me putting it out there. It's tanly.tam@gmail.com


 
  
 I tried+failed to do the free registration on taobao.  The phone texting verification doesn't fly.
 I emailed Tanly and name-dropped Stuartmc in the subject line.
  
 $450 does indeed seem like a lot for a Chinese transport.  PUC2 (AES) is the same price.
 But if I2S is the name of the game, and this unit will compete with a $1500 Hydra-Z + power module then I suppose the pricing is on par.
  
 I'm following your lead Stuart.  I hope I don't spend much time on an HDMI cable hamster wheel.


----------



## GioF71

bassdigger said:


> 30cms is a guesstimate. As i recently found out, there are different kinds of I2S signals; maybe some of them work over a longer run, than others.
> But, I still understand that I2S connections should be kept as short as possible. I don't actually know why, but I don't doubt it.
> 
> Yes, you're right; it does require (hopefully) a sympathetic position/angle of connector, and some strategic positioning of equipment.
> ...


 
  
 Nice custom length diy cable! 
 Surely a short HDMI does not hurt! Mine is a nice 60 cm cable from Ricable. Before I used a regular tv hdmi cable (I guess it was 1.5/2 m long).
 With the Ricable I immediately noticed an improvement, or at least my brain told me so (placebo effect definitely possible eheh).


----------



## abartels

wynnytsky said:


> I tried+failed to do the free registration on taobao.  The phone texting verification doesn't fly.
> I emailed Tanly and name-dropped Stuartmc in the subject line.
> 
> $450 does indeed seem like a lot for a Chinese transport.  PUC2 (AES) is the same price.
> ...


 
  
 Did I miss something???? Was there a shootout between Tanly and Hydra-Z with ZPM psu?????
  
 See threads beneath for more info:
  
 Gustard U12 / Tanly / Melodious MX-U8
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip
  
 Melodious MX-U8 / Audiobyte Hydra-Z
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip


----------



## Wynnytsky

abartels said:


> Did I miss something???? Was there a shootout between Tanly and Hydra-Z with ZPM psu?????


 
 no it's just my wishful thinking
 anything can "compete" with anything -- winning is another matter
 unless you're Charlie Sheen, then the winner is the transport who's savings will get you the most cocaine.


----------



## abartels

wynnytsky said:


> no it's just my wishful thinking
> anything can "compete" with anything -- winning is another matter
> unless you're Charlie Sheen, then the winner is the transport who's savings will get you the most cocaine.


 
  
 I know you can COMPARE the two devices, but PROBABLY Tanley can not COMPETE with Hydra-Z.
  
 Are you familiar with Soldering Iron? DIY tasks? If YES: Look at my MX-U8 mods


----------



## b0bb

nc42acc said:


> Has anyone tried the L.K.S Audio MH-DA003 DAC. Looks great on paper.


 
 Separate thread
http://www.head-fi.org/t/745032/lks-audio-mh-da003


----------



## Wynnytsky

far easier to mod my brain with bath salts (another insanely affordable Chinese export)
  
 so when I say the Tanley had me absolutely terrified, it might be a combination of the extreme black background and the front power LED


----------



## hotw

bassdigger said:


> I can't speak for any Gustard products, nor have I ever done any direct comparisons. But there should be only one winner there, that's I2S; it's the only one that includes the clocking information.
> Cable runs have to be kept very short (like < 30cm) though!
> 
> Optical has the worst rep (because it has another conversion process), but will give electrical isolation (from a 'noisy' pc).
> ...


 

 I reread what he wrote, i have the answer i want :/
 thanks anyway.


----------



## nc42acc

b0bb said:


> Separate thread
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/745032/lks-audio-mh-da003


 
 b0bb thanks for the info. Maybe I should have phrased my question "Has anyone compared the MH-DA003 to the Gustard X20U in sound quality?"


----------



## motberg

wynnytsky said:


> I tried+failed to do the free registration on taobao.  The phone texting verification doesn't fly.
> I emailed Tanly and name-dropped Stuartmc in the subject line.
> 
> $450 does indeed seem like a lot for a Chinese transport.  PUC2 (AES) is the same price.
> ...


 
 I am using a Wireworld Ultraviolet 5.2, 0.3M HDMI for the i2S from a Tanly to an Audio-GD M7. 
 Seems very well made, sounds great and since is old model I got a close out price a few months ago around 30 USD if I remember correctly.
 Maybe I am lucky on the length and plug orientation, but I can stack the Tanly on top of the M7 with Herbie's isolation feet in between.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wireworld-Ultraviolet-5-2-HDMI-to-HDMI-1080P-0-3M-10-2Gbps-transfer-rate-/360874031153?hash=item5405c4b831
 Showing only 5 pcs. left...


----------



## Wynnytsky

ha I just ordered a used 1ft Silver Starlight 5-2 last night for $50.
I told the seller the cable would live out it's live doing I2S duty and he was like "what's that?"
  
 I'll compare it to a 0.5m in-wall monoprice cable I have
 I also have a 4m RedMere monoprice cable to try
 And a friend is waiting on some fancy cables he ordered
  
 I'll post our results with a U12+X12
  
 $5 skinny 1.5ft 
 http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024014&p_id=11558&seq=1&format=2
  
 $5 flat 3ft
 http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024012&p_id=4157&seq=1&format=2


----------



## DLlama

Hello all you swabbies out there!
  
 I've been lurking through this thread and the H10 thread for the last few days trying to learn as much as I could to make an informed decision on what amp and DAC I should buy. Which was no small task considering I know absolutely nothing about audio. That's right a brand new gleaming noob to this rather convoluted and subjective world.
  
 I can proudly say that I have jumped aboard the S.S. Gustard with both feet firmly planted. One foot resides in the H10, the other in the X20U all paired up with the Audeze LCD-X. I believe there was something said in the H10 thread about buying big up front and being happy in the long term, so I took it to heart.
  
 First I just want say thank you to all of you swabbies out there that have been keeping this thread running strong and disseminating useful, clear, and pertinent information so  that even a newbie like me could benefit from all the ground of you noble guinea pigs have done
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 I would also like to thank our captain stuartmc for your integral role in making these difficult decisions manageable. Your detailed and tangible reviews of products side by side were a god sent and a damn sight fun to read to boot! 
  
 That's about it for now. I will keep you guys updated as things arrive. Be prepared for a ton of questions. And again thank you all so very much!


----------



## Wynnytsky

For me Stu's post #369 broke me free of the Yggy's R2R death grip
  
 Then I saw some disturbing schiit posts
 Looked like one guy got bullied into buying the Yggy.
 I now imagine Jason handling customers with Don Draper's What face the whole time.
 Overall I god a bad anti-chifi clique/cult vibe from the schiit characters.
  
 I assume Gustard has their own propaganda machine but we just don't know it because it's posted all in Chinese!
  
 Of all things this review was the coup de gras that solidified my belief in I2S
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/616-ps-audio-directstream-dac-review
  
  
 oh, and my X20U is supposed to arrive in the 1st half of September


----------



## johnzz4

dllama said:


> Hello all you swabbies out there!
> 
> I've been lurking through this thread and the H10 thread for the last few days trying to learn as much as I could to make an informed decision on what amp and DAC I should buy. Which was no small task considering I know absolutely nothing about audio. That's right a brand new gleaming noob to this rather convoluted and subjective world.
> 
> ...


 
 Sounds like we're on the exact same path.  The only thing left is to receive the x20u which is scheduled for delivery shortly after 9/15.  Should be fun...


----------



## stuartmc

dllama said:


> Hello all you swabbies out there!
> 
> I've been lurking through this thread and the H10 thread for the last few days trying to learn as much as I could to make an informed decision on what amp and DAC I should buy. Which was no small task considering I know absolutely nothing about audio. That's right a brand new gleaming noob to this rather convoluted and subjective world.
> 
> ...




That's just awesome, our new swabbie! Thanks for sharing this with us. It's very gratifying to know that our merry band of pecunious audio nuts has made a good impression on you - taught you a few things and hopefully made you laugh. It's good to be the noble guinea pig and defacto Cap'n of the SS Gustard!


----------



## stuartmc

> I assume Gustard has their own propaganda machine but we just don't know it because it's posted all in Chinese!




Actually, I have it on very good authority that Mr. Huang and the rest of the Gustard principals have no propaganda arm and no guile, for that matter. It's one of the reasons I really like this company. They appear to be genuine enthusiasts who have mostly served the Chinese DIY market and have done contract work for other companies. The Gustard brand is a relatively new venture for them.


----------



## BassDigger

> Originally Posted by *DLlama* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Hello all you swabbies out there!
> 
> ...


 
  
 First of all, welcome. Secondly, I hope that you'll be able to return to your homeland, soon, and be 'officially' accepted there! (Unless you're a real Lhama; then happy grazing) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It's nice to see that the Gustard threads have some appreciation.
  
 I just wanted to 'pipe in' on a note of caution. Firstly, I know little about the X20, so my remarks are excepting this component.
 I think that you should remember that the H10 is a 'value for money' amp. That's to say that whilst it does fantastic things for its asking price, its performance can still be quite noticeably bettered. I mention this because the phones that you are using are quite high-end. If you were mentioning perhaps the hifiman he400, 500 or 560, then fair enough; the H10 is perhaps their perfect partner (when it comes to _both_ price and performance).
 But, I've noticed a shortcoming of the H10, with the (half the price of the LCD X) lcd2; the treble is slightly unrefined and has a premature roll-off. I'm certain that the H10 will not be getting the best out of your pricey Audeze phones!
  
 I'm going to experiment with more running in, and swabbing op-amps, but generally I'm using the H10 as a known quantity with which to make a judgement for my next amp upgrade. It offers such good value for money, and works so well with planar 'phones, that it was an obvious 'stepping stone'. But, unless the ad797's really shine, I'll be finding another amp to really get the treble clarity back into my lcd2, and I'm a 'bassdigger'; i often find that some treble is OTT!


----------



## BassDigger

wynnytsky said:


> For me Stu's post #369 broke me free of the *Yggy's R2R death grip*
> 
> Then I saw some disturbing schiit posts
> Looked like one guy got bullied into buying the Yggy.
> ...


 
  
 I think that I get what you mean; from reading those threads (on either forum) you get the impression that to experience R2R,...
 a) you must buy a Yggy
 b) or if you can't afford a Yggy, then a second hand, almost as expensive Theta dac is your only other option
 c) and to have a valid opinion, you must have a collection of >$???? dacs
  
 Well, I'm a complete convert to R2R (as of long before Schiit were tinkering) and I think there are plenty of other options. But, i still find the Yggy, and other unaffordia, comparisons interesting and useful; I may one day be looking to upgrade my source (but not for a looong time yet!)
  
 One key thing that appears to have been overlooked, by the R2R discussions and hype, is the use of the best connection- I2S.
 Thankfully, this option seems to becoming more standard is recent offerings, like those from Gustard. (I just wonder if Gustard will, one day, get the R2R bug!)
  
 I agree with the Capn's point about Gustard's lack of guile and hype; propaganda and marketing work quite differently in China, and they really do seem to be a small company. But when you see Jackie Chan advertising 'Gustard' _(and making some improbable claims)_, you'll know that that's all changed!


----------



## Excellence 5

*@stuartmc*, does your X20U play DSD ? Please, let me know.
  
 There is no way for me. I  think i tried every possible set up, getting always the same playback error "could not query sample rate". I installed the latest ASIO Proxy driver v0.8.1
  
 Another question about the SACD menu: is it normal that those three voices out of five become *inactive* after skipping the output mode from PCM to DSD ??? No matter what file i’m going to play, it stays as you can see here: http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee483/Uomo_Avvisato/Videoproiettore/Problema%20foobar%20ASIO%20DSD%203_zps67l8dvex.png .
  
 Thanks


----------



## DLlama

bassdigger said:


> I think that you should remember that the H10 is a 'value for money' amp.
> I'm certain that the H10 will not be getting the best out of your pricey Audeze phones!
> 
> I'm going to experiment with more running in, and swabbing op-amps, but generally I'm using the H10 as a known quantity with which to make a judgement for my next amp upgrade. It offers such good value for money, and works so well with planar 'phones, that it was an obvious 'stepping stone'. But, unless the ad797's really shine, I'll be finding another amp to really get the treble clarity back into my lcd2, and I'm a 'bassdigger'; i often find that some treble is OTT!


 
 I will agree with you that the H10 is a value for the money amp but everyone here talks endlessly about how great it is, especially with low impedance planar magnetic headphones. Also I didn't have much a choice with the amp in this case. I got a really good deal on a site called massdrop where I got the LCD-X with the H10 and I ended up getting the H10 for free sooo it was tough to pass up. And I'm just going to hope that my experience with the X's differs from your 2's.  But I am looking forward to learning about your testing new amps


----------



## DLlama

johnzz4 said:


> Sounds like we're on the exact same path.  The only thing left is to receive the x20u which is scheduled for delivery shortly after 9/15.  Should be fun...


 
 Oh man, it looks like we will be getting our equipment around the same time! I look forward to reading about your audio experience once your all set up


----------



## BassDigger

dllama said:


> I will agree with you that the H10 is a value for the money amp but *everyone here talks endlessly about how great it is*, especially with low impedance planar magnetic headphones. Also I didn't have much a choice with the amp in this case. I got a really good deal on a site called massdrop where I got the LCD-X with the H10 and* I ended up getting the H10 for free* sooo it was tough to pass up. *And I'm just going to hope that my experience with the X's differs from your 2's. * But I am looking forward to learning about your testing new amps


 
  
 You've previously mentioned knowing nothing about audio. This kind of suggests that you also lack experience with audio (hifi) gear. So, if that's the case, I doubt that your experience, with the Audeze phones, will mimic mine; I'm sure that you'll be very happy, and will feel that there's nothing missing. I'm just saying, that despite much adoration, the amp is not perfect, and that other amps will reproduce a noticeably more resolved treble, than the H10.
 Although, one user has just reported (on the other thread) a marked improvement with the treble, by swapping op-amps.
  
 Whatever, I'm sure that you'll have plenty of fun and the H10 is an excellent starting point, for planar 'phone amp experimentation, especially if it's for free.


----------



## stuartmc

wynnytsky said:


> I tried+failed to do the free registration on taobao.  The phone texting verification doesn't fly.
> I emailed Tanly and name-dropped Stuartmc in the subject line.
> 
> $450 does indeed seem like a lot for a Chinese transport.  PUC2 (AES) is the same price.
> ...


 
 With regard to HDMI cables and I2S, I have found that the short lengths aren't necessarily the best.  I had a .5M length of Pangea silver and a 1.5m length of Analysis Plus was far superior.  The Analysis Plus HDMI CL2 didn't even use any special copper or pixie dust, just very well built 24 AWG stuff.  I also had a Neotech cable and a few no-name hdmi's of various lengths. The Analysis Plus CL2 sounded better than any of them.  It does make me wonder about how I2S is implemented in the Gustard gear.


----------



## Jozurr

bassdigger said:


> You've previously mentioned knowing nothing about audio. This kind of suggests that you also lack experience with audio (hifi) gear. So, if that's the case, I doubt that your experience, with the Audeze phones, will mimic mine; I'm sure that you'll be very happy, and will feel that there's nothing missing. I'm just saying, that despite much adoration, the amp is not perfect, and that other amps will reproduce a noticeably more resolved treble, than the H10.
> Although, one user has just reported (on the other thread) a marked improvement with the treble, by swapping op-amps.
> 
> Whatever, I'm sure that you'll have plenty of fun and the H10 is an excellent starting point, for planar 'phone amp experimentation, especially if it's for free.


 
  
 What are you currently using as your amp and have you modified it in some way? I'm asking because I dig bass too


----------



## Wynnytsky

stuartmc said:


> With regard to HDMI cables and I2S, I have found that the short lengths aren't necessarily the best.  I had a .5M length of Pangea silver and a 1.5m length of Analysis Plus was far superior.  The Analysis Plus HDMI CL2 didn't even use any special copper or pixie dust, just very well built 24 AWG stuff.  I also had a Neotech cable and a few no-name hdmi's of various lengths. The Analysis Plus CL2 sounded better than any of them.  It does make me wonder about how I2S is implemented in the Gustard gear.


 
 I don't doubt it.  The only time I saw an issue with length was when I needed a 2nd USB cable for my iFi iUSB.  The cable entering the iFi has to be damn short or else no hand shake.  My friend uses a 9ft whiplash polestar which I always anticipated to become an issue but never was.  I'm loving my 4 meter BlueJean AES, but XLR is designed for long runs.
  
 Last night I heard a 2m mapleshade vivilink 2 plus with only 2hours of break in and it was very impressive.  Where ordinary cables come in a plastic jacket, this thing comes in a fuzzy sweater (really, it's yarn).  For less than stellar recordings that got bright I would switch inputs to AES and ahhh it rounded the edges just the right amount without any roll off or dips in frequency response.  I can see myself wanting a remote on the X20U to jump inputs from the listening position.  Also tried the Audioquest Vodka which sounded excellent in my friends system, but had the tone all wrong in mine.  Next we'll be trying out a Harmonic Tech cable and I'd like to try the monoprice redmere again (didn't hand shake the first time).  Also expecting the PUC2 next week (and I forgot which AES he ordered).  It's nice having a trigger happy audiophile friend!


----------



## stuartmc

Hey, you're in luck. You do know that the X20u comes with a full function remote, right?


----------



## stuartmc

excellence 5 said:


> *@stuartmc*, does your X20U play DSD ? Please, let me know.
> 
> There is no way for me. I  think i tried every possible set up, getting always the same playback error "could not query sample rate". I installed the latest ASIO Proxy driver v0.8.1
> 
> ...




Yes indeed, my X20 plays DSD. I'm using JRiver and also a modified Thysecon driver for my Tanly USB-DDC. To get DSD to play correctly is quite a dance between the JRiver settings and the chosen ASIO driver. I got the same sort of notices all the time before I got things set up properly. Make sure your ASIO driver can handle the type of DSD files your playing and then you're on your own depending on whatever player software you're using with it. You're going to have to Google the crap out of it to get the right configuration information.


----------



## BassDigger

stuartmc said:


> With regard to HDMI cables and I2S, *I have found that the short lengths aren't necessarily the best.*  I had a .5M length of Pangea silver and a 1.5m length of Analysis Plus was far superior.  The Analysis Plus HDMI CL2 didn't even use any special copper or pixie dust, just very well built 24 AWG stuff.  I also had a Neotech cable and a few no-name hdmi's of various lengths. The Analysis Plus CL2 sounded better than any of them.*  It does make me wonder about how I2S is implemented in the Gustard gear.*


 
   
 That's the thing; I was always told that I2S runs have to be kept short. This seemed to be for a normal (whatever that is) I2S signal, the same as the internal transport to dac connection in a CD player.
  
 I understand that there are different signals and protocols being used today. But they're all called I2S. This is confusing. Maybe some of them are ok over longer lengths.
 Incidentally, I've also heard that short runs aren't so good for digital cables. Now it's even more confusing! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


jozurr said:


> What are you currently using as your amp and have you modified it in some way? I'm asking because I dig bass too


 
  
 I'm sorry, I can't give you much help; I'm still looking for the right set-up. I'm using a standard H10. It has plenty of control and punch, for the bass. But I think that the lcd2 fazors roll-off the deepest notes.
 Unfortunately, the standard H10 rolls-off the treble as well. Sometime, hopefully soon, i'll be testing what an op-amp swap will do for the overall sound.


----------



## Wynnytsky

stuartmc said:


> Hey, you're in luck. You do know that the X20u comes with a full function remote, right?


 
 Now I have the Don Draper WFT face on
 Why on earth would Gustard omit both the photo and the word "remote" from their listing?
  


bassdigger said:


> Incidentally, I've also heard that short runs aren't so good for digital cables. Now it's even more confusing!


 
 yup network and USB cables must fall within a certain length for the impedance to fall within some tolerable range.  And if the impedance isn't right the signal might bounce off the receiving end, and return to the start of the cable, where it bounces once again to return to the receiver a 2nd or 3rd time.  John Kenny was explaining how this happens with coax and he recommends a special inline filter at the end of the cable to stop these reflections (which I think constitute jitter).  What's crazy about this is that you can have an expensive AES cable who's impedance is exactly 110.000ohm, but your Yggy's AES input impedance might measure 107ohm, and so a $5 monoprice AES measuring 108ohm would have better synergy on your system!
  
 I think the recommended minimum for network and USB is around 3 to 4ft.  I remember making a 4in ethernet cable and I couldn't figure out for the life of me why my internet was dropping intermittently.  A little googling and I see some suggestion of near and far end crosstalk when digital cables are too short/long.  I'll know next week if I screwed myself getting this 1ft hdmi cable.
  
 Excellent 5 - if your reading this...
 When you picked the output mode DSD you are telling JRiver that you DON'T want it to convert to PCM on the fly, because your DAC's hardware can handle DSD natively.
 That's why the PCM parameters are being disabled.


----------



## Excellence 5

*@stuartmc*, thanks for the answer. It finally works for me, too!
  
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee483/Uomo_Avvisato/Videoproiettore/GUSTARD%20X20U%20con%20file%20DSD%20funzionante_zpse8zrmwna.jpg
  
 I’m under Windows 10 64-bit and i use foobar2000. I had to install the old “ASIOProxyInstall-0.7.2-IntelC++” before it decided to start working. At the moment i don’t understand what the issue was/is, but at least i’m sure that my machine works!
  
 An hello to everyone


----------



## GioF71

That's what I suggested you one week ago!
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/390#post_11844976


----------



## Excellence 5

*@Gio*, sorry: i mean that it started working with an old version (0.7.2); it doesn’t with the latest ones 0.7.3 and 0.8.1. I don't know why.


----------



## GioF71

excellence 5 said:


> *@Gio*, sorry: i mean that it started working with an old version (0.7.2); it doesn’t with the latest ones 0.7.3 and 0.8.1. I don't know why.


 
  
 Oops... this does not seem nice, keep us informed with your findings please


----------



## GioF71

Replying here to avoid off topic on the H10 thread.
 Original post is here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/2895#post_11801664
  
 So this morning I finally did one test Rynsin asked me: I connected my U12 to the desktop PC, to verify which component gives the greater improvements
  
 So the new chains were:
  
 Chain 1)
 Atom PC (linux, mpd + upmpdcli) with linear PSU -> AudioQuest USB -> Schiit Wyrd -> AudioQuest USB -> Gustard U12 -> HDMI I2S Ricable -> Gustard X12 -> Balanced -> Gustard H10 -> Sennheiser HD650
  
 Chain 2)
 Desktop Windows PC -> AQVox linear USB power -> AudioQuest USB -> Gustard U12 -> HDMI I2S Ricable -> Gustard X12 -> Balanced -> Gustard H10 -> Sennheiser HD650
  
 Unfortunately, I did not remember to take the AQVox off the chain. More, I could not get the Wyrd working with the desktop PC, maybe due to the presence of the AQVox.
 So, this test is not 100% what I meant to do. I will repeat it more accurately ASAP.
  
 However, in this conditions, the difference is still very noticeable. Chain 1 sounds a lot better. IMO there is no contest.
 Due to a mistake, I also tried Chain 1 without the Wyrd. It sounds very well anyway; when I connected the Wyrd, it appeared to me to have an improvement. I am pretty sure the Wyrd does not hurt even with the U12 dedicated interface.
  
 I will try again with a more accurate test as I mentioned, as well as the final test with the X12 directly connected to the Atom PC.
  
 Aside note: the Windows PC uses Foobar 2000 with ASIO (foo_dsd_asio). No directsound, no resampling, no DSPs active.
  
 ----------------
  
 Edit: some typing errors.
  
  



> Quote:
> 
> 
> decentlevi said:
> ...


----------



## johnzz4

I saw a few of you have tried some alternate opamps and I'd like to experiment.  Which op amps have been tried and what has the outcome been?  I saw the AD797s appear to be an upgrade.  Are there some full part numbers so I can order the right ones?
  
 EDIT:  Sorry guys, I just found some part numbers in the H10 thread.  Looks like AD797ANZ and AD823ANZ are the suggested ones to try.  Does that sound right?


----------



## Wynnytsky

I'll take two thank you
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBdJvT7tpSM
  
 anybody heard of an o-type transformer?
 when I look at the X20's ebay listing it looks like two toroidals.  I assumed o-type was just a cute name for toroidal.
 Yet I couldn't find a single web page that shared both terms o-type and toroidal.  Surely this is deliberate.
 The toroidal patent was filed in 1960 by Gordon A. Shifrin and the o-type patent was filed in 1991 by non other than 张维良
 But when I google o-type it looks like an exclusively Chinese technology.
  
 Was the o-type conceived to dodge the toroidal patent?  If so 1 point for China, 0 for the "legal" mafioso.


----------



## vince741

Looks like the X20 is now available on shenzhenaudio.


----------



## LancerFIN

vince741 said:


> Looks like the X20 is now available on shenzhenaudio.


 

 $800 without USB free shipping. That's amazing price. USB is $70 extra.


----------



## stuartmc

lancerfin said:


> $800 without USB free shipping. That's amazing price. USB is $70 extra.


 
 Yes it is!  I seriously doubt that you will find a better DAC at under $1000.
  
 I recently swapped out the stock cabinet feet for Black Diamond Racing Cones and sat them on Golden Sound DH squares all on top of a Townshend Seismic Sink.  Just like with the X12, it really puts the frosting on the sonic cake.  When I was taking the stock feet off, the screw holding the foot closest to the IEC socket was harder to unscrew then the others and sure enough, it had a small nut on the inside that attached the ground wire from the IEC to the chassis (just like the X12).  I had to open her up again and re-attach the ground wire.  To do that, I had to remove one of the transformers and uplug some of the power leads attached to the backside of the IEC socket. One of these leads to the transformer was not fully seated, so when I put it all back together I treated the connectors with some Stabilant 22, and also made sure there was a really good ground connection to the chassis....well.... who knows which thing was the true causative factor, or maybe a sum of all them, but I got the quietest, darkest background I have heard to date as well as the best soundstaging I have ever heard with my headphone set up.


----------



## Walderstorn

Im patiently waiting for some1 to sell it in europe, after my h10 misshap im not buying international again.
  
@stuartmc did you ever had the Concero/Concero HD/Yulong d200/audio dg nfb1/yulong d18 so you could compare to any of these?


----------



## Wynnytsky

walderstorn said:


> yulong d18


 
 By the end of the month I'll be running the U12 (then hopefully the Tanly) into both the D18 and the X20 in parallel
 I'll be rolling the input selector on my preamp to A/B them.
  


stuartmc said:


> One of these leads to the transformer was not fully seated, so when I put it all back together I treated the connectors with some Stabilant 22, and also made sure there was a really good ground connection to the chassis


 
 My friend swears by deoxit, but stab22 is priced like it should be illegal.  I ordered 5 grams of that stuff last night.  If it doesn't work I'll try smoking it.  But first I'm putting this schiit on evryting (usb, hdmi, rca, speaker, ac outlets!)


----------



## Walderstorn

Thanks mate, please tag me when u do a review or a quick-opinion about it.


----------



## stuartmc

walderstorn said:


> Im patiently waiting for some1 to sell it in europe, after my h10 misshap im not buying international again.
> 
> @stuartmc did you ever had the Concero/Concero HD/Yulong d200/audio dg nfb1/yulong d18 so you could compare to any of these?


 
 The answer to that is no.  I had the X12, Meitner Bidat, Bel Canto Dac1, Sony SCD-777ES, Rega Apollo-R, and Aune S16. The Gustard X-20 bested them all.  I had a Monarchy 22, Theta Pro, EVS  and several others back in the day, but they weren't around for direct comparisons.


----------



## Walderstorn

Thanks mate.


----------



## Excellence 5

bahamot said:


> Is Gustard X20 also a preamp?
> ...


 
 I'm trying right now, but i get no sound. I connected the X20U to my two monoblocks Xindak PA-1, with no result.
  
 Anyone else here, maybe Stuart?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jesus
 I wouldn't start learning my way around the X20 while plugged in directly to those monster amps
  
 If ASIO or WASAPI ignores the windows volume control and windows sends a login jingle, you could damage a tweeter
 Which makes for a good tip-of-the-day.  On your audio render-er PC, disable all jingles by doing this...


----------



## stuartmc

excellence 5 said:


> I'm trying right now, but i get no sound. I connected the X20U to my two monoblocks Xindak PA-1, with no result.
> 
> Anyone else here, maybe Stuart?


 
 The X20U is not a preamp. It is a DAC only. It will only receive digital data for processing. There is no analog throughput. Now, if you want to use it as a DAC and run direct to your amps and use its onboard digital volume attenuator, then I suppose that would work fine.  The RCA output level is 2.3V and the XLR output is 4.6V. The digital attenuator goes from 0 to -99db.


----------



## Excellence 5

wynnytsky said:


> Jesus
> I wouldn't start learning my way around the X20 while plugged in directly to those monster amps...


 
 Oh well, before doing that test i silenced the DAC down to -99db. So everything is back to normal here, with no troubles. But thanks for suggesting that option.
  
 Thanks also to Stuart for his answer. I didn’t know how to find more information about the X20U.
  
 Let me say that the team at Gustard (http://www.seowon-audio.com/) never answers to e-mails, which thing is a bit dissappointing.


----------



## Wynnytsky

you might be the first to give a speaker-fi account of the X20
  
 please let us know what you think of the X20's resistive volume function vs your active pre
 I wish I still had a slagleformer pre to run it through.  I suspect the gustard DACs don't need the boost from a preamplifier


----------



## GioF71

Nice tip
And another reason to NOT use a desktop operating system to run our usb DACs!




wynnytsky said:


> Jesus
> I wouldn't start learning my way around the X20 while plugged in directly to those monster amps
> 
> If ASIO or WASAPI ignores the windows volume control and windows sends a login jingle, you could damage a tweeter
> Which makes for a good tip-of-the-day.  On your audio render-er PC, disable all jingles by doing this...


----------



## Triplefun

You should be looking at the playback devices - not sounds. Which version of windows are you running and what is the source (Foobar, JRiver, JPlay, HQPlayer). The media systems need to be configured for ASIO (or WASAPI) output to the USB driver.


----------



## conquerator2

So, I am looking for an upgrade to my U12,
 Is Melodious MXU8 and Tanly Audio still considered the best choice under 500$?
 I have the audio-gd DI-2014 but the USB still gives me trouble...
 Thanks!


----------



## Wynnytsky

I'm going to start my PUC2 eval after this post.  It's funny when I hear accounts of pro audio stuff steps over "audiophile" branded gear
 http://www.daleproaudio.com/s-85-yellowtec-puc2.aspx
 It's probably the only made-in-Germany device I can afford.
  
 On Aug 25th Tanly wrote me
 "OK, You will be notified by email if it is available."
  
Notice he said *IF*.  I have a funny feeling we should procure as much discounted chi-fi before environmentalists interfere with production methods.  Save the Yangtze river! (after you build my Tanly)
  
 I would hope this month I'll have a first hand account of the X20U's USB vs U12 vs Tanly vs PUC2.


----------



## genclaymore

I itching to hear how the JBL LSR 305 sounds with the Gustard X12, as I bought a pair of them that i got a good deal on them. I bought a dual RCA to TRS 1/4 cable as well as I using the balanced connection to my H10. Gonna be a long wait.


----------



## johnzz4

Any news on the rumored H20 amp?  Now that the X20 is shipped, I want an amp of similar caliber - though I'm still enjoying the H10.


----------



## BassDigger

+1


----------



## johnzz4

I was digging around the different Gustard pages and someone mentioned a Nov/Dec release - they sounded reasonably confident FWIW.  Fingers crossed.  Op amp rolling will have to carry me until then...


----------



## Bigdog33

Hello all, I recently purchased an H10 amp (still on its way!) and will be using a source of a macbook pro to a schiit bifrost through its optical connection.  However, BassDigger suggested in the other Gustard thread an upgrade to clean up my digital signal to maximize my listening experience!  BassDigger what did you have in mind?


----------



## BassDigger

bigdog33 said:


> Hello all, I recently purchased an H10 amp (still on its way!) and will be using a source of a macbook pro to a schiit bifrost through its optical connection.  However, BassDigger suggested in the other Gustard thread an upgrade to clean up my digital signal to maximize my listening experience!  *BassDigger what did you have in mind?*


 
  
 Actually, nothing in particular.
 Most discussions of this type are based around units to improve USB audio. But you're using optical.
  
 Although, I'm sure that there're are a number of devices that could help. i.e. I've an old Monarchy Audio re-clocker (that I've never used), that accepts optical, re-clocks and outputs electrical _(No, I'm not trying to sell; it's on another continent _



_)_. It's now old tech.
 So, I'm sure that they're are plenty of similar devices available, that are more modern and use better technology.
 E.g. The Cap'n was singing the praises of a Tanly unit, recently. But it's a little bit pricey, and I don't know if it accepts an optical input. But I'm sure that there's something, that's both affordable and has the right connections. As I said before, improving the signal going into your dac will reap rewards all the way through, and you're going to hear a difference with those LCDs.


----------



## BassDigger

bigdog33 said:


> BassDigger what did you have in mind?


 
  
 Just to elaborate a little more: 
  
 I've done a little research, and it seems that there aren't too many jitter-busters that accept a toslink optical input; well, I couldn't easily find any by googling. But they exist, 'cos I've got one.
  
 Anyway, my main point is about jitter; I'm always going on about it. Whilst your optical connection is doing an excellent job of insulating the rest of your gear from the nasty RFI that's bound to be bursting out of your computer, it's not the best of transmission protocols. It's because of the extra conversion process.
  
 But all is not lost; what you need is a method of de-jittering that optical feed, and then it'd be best to use a better protocol to feed the re-clocked signal to your dac, spdif electrical being an improvement. Others are even better.
  
 Unfortunately, neither the Tanly nor the Gustard U12 accept toslink, as an input (and I'm not sure that they do any re-clocking/jitter-busting either). But I'm sure that we can find something that's both effective and affordable, somewhere.


----------



## pigfatcat

I have been using U12 for half a year . I found that it adds smoothness and 3Dness to the presentation , no matter I put it in front of Audio GD NFB 10 SE or Chord Hugo . Typically my experience with Hugo is revealing: direct link to HD USB sounds more precise , quick and accurate , but crisp , glare and digital and somtimes harsh . Comparatively , U12 to Coaxial of Hugo sound more natural and full . 
  
 I recently tried putting Elfidelity USB Booster II in front of Hugo instead of U12:
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.XtI6MU&id=40230386675&_u=71d7eit2e43
  
 The idea is simple: separate the power supply of the computer through the USB output and supplying a separate source to it . Although the USB power supply is used by Hugo in its HD USB input only for the purpose of handshake , in practice it affects the sound of the HD USB input significantly .  The  full potentialof the HD USB input  is limited , as Rob had mentioned before , by the EMF and power contamination of the USB power supply .
  
 I found that  Elfidelity takes away at most , if not all , of the harshness and digital glare . The fullness of the sound is comparable , or in a sense better and more true than using U 12 . The resulting sound is much more lively , natural , quick and accurate compared with using U12 . For the first time I realized that I achieved the "LP sound" of Hugo described by many admirers of Hugo . In particular , the" timing" of  how each note starts , peaks and drops are presented more accurately by Hugo through the HD USB rather than the coaxial port . This is something which Rob mentioned which gave rise to the naturalness of Hugo similar  to LP sound, compared with other top DACs . 
  
 It has been discussed among Hugo users whether coaxial or HD USB gives better sounding. Each has its weakness and strengths . However with the use of Elfidelity I am convinced that the HD USB port is naturally the better input of Hugo  for true reproduction of music .
  
 I found that Elfidelity basically solve the problem and bring the HD USB input of Hugo to a next level, and surpassing the coxial input by a large margin . I also found , strangely , that the power suuply and even the power supply cord to Elfidelity have a significant effect on the sound . I tired attaching the USB charging chord  supplied by Elfidelity to a power adapter , direct to a Xiaomi USB power bank, and to an Orico USB Hub . The Orico Hub turns out to be the winner with  the most lively  ,quick ,  accurate and full sound. 
  
 https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=19833643401&spm=a1z09.2.0.0.yWslUC&_u=71d7eitea83&sku_properties=148242406:21516


----------



## Bigdog33

​Quote: 





bassdigger said:


> Just to elaborate a little more:
> 
> I've done a little research, and it seems that there aren't too many jitter-busters that accept a toslink optical input; well, I couldn't easily find any by googling. But they exist, 'cos I've got one.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, BassDigger, I checked into this yesterday, and like you said, there's not a whole lot out there.  To tell the truth, I knew that jitter was a problem for USB connections, but really wasn't aware that optical signals were plagued by it too.  I did a fair amount of research into this, and what it seems I would really want is a "reclocker" that accepts optical in, but then can output to S/PDIF coaxial to my Schiit Bifrost, which has a coaxial input, which is what you said here!
  
 I found the Empirical Synchro-Mesh, http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/synchro-mesh
  
 But it's not really budget-friendly! It's $599, plus $100 for the coaxial output...


----------



## Wynnytsky

If that was my DAC then I'd go for this...
 http://www.daleproaudio.com/s-85-yellowtec-puc2.aspx
 It doesn't need drivers to work on win&mac.
 One guy thinks it sounds so good he didn't bother installing the drivers (which will give you ASIO support)
  
 And you'll need one of these...
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Neutrik&ci=14832&N=4294550053+4229849819+4291317329
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?sku=406162&is=REG&Q=&A=details


----------



## BassDigger

> Originally Posted by *Bigdog33* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Thanks, BassDigger, I checked into this yesterday, and like you said, there's not a whole lot out there.  To tell the truth, *I knew that jitter was a problem for USB connections, but really wasn't aware that optical signals were plagued by it too.*  I did a fair amount of research into this, and what it seems I would really want is *a "reclocker" that accepts optical in, but then can output to S/PDIF coaxial *to my Schiit Bifrost, which has a coaxial input, which is what you said here!
> 
> ...


 
  
 That sure is pricey, although it still has a standard coax output; the extra $100 is for an OTL output.
  
 What I've been talking about is one of these:
  

  
 The Monarchy Audio DIP
 There're several versions. The above is one of the earliest. And I think they all use some pretty outdated re-clocking tech. But, you can pick one up for around $100usd (obviously S/H), and they're pretty solid. It'll both convert and improve your digital signal (To about the standard of a mid-fi, stand-alone CD transport, I believe.). 
  
 Alternatively, you could just get a simple toslink to spdif converter (they're cheap and plentiful), along with a more modern ASRC re-clocker, or maybe a DAC with this feature built-in (I'm not sure if the Gustard X20 does this), when you next upgrade.
  
  
 EDIT: Regarding USB- As I see it, there are 2 major disadvantages of using the usb output from a standard computer:
  

RFI - nasty signals (from the various components within the pc) that interfere with the workings of the connected equipment.
Glitches, noise and jitter- I was tempted to divide these into separate issues. But really I think that they're different aspects of the same thing; glitches are big playback timing errors, that are clearly audible as such. Noise is the presence of less obvious, but still audible and undesirable artifacts. Jitter is at the extreme; very high frequency errors, that make the dac's job more difficult.
  
 An optical connection overcomes one of these disadvantages, but adds to the effects of the other. A jitter-buster will help reduce the the higher frequency negative effects, especially for the dac.
 Also, it's worth keeping in mind that there's no perfect connection; they all lose something, or effect the signal somehow. You just have have to try and find the best solution for your situation.


----------



## stuartmc

Just a heads up guys -- I started a new thread just for the Gustard X20 DAC.  I think it may be best that general discussions stay here and the more focused discussion, specific to the X20, migrate to the new thread.  I'm not a moderator, nor have any desire to be the "appropriate thread police," so feel free to discuss the X20  anywhere you choose.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/780385/gustard-x20-dac


----------



## GioF71

As a reply to these posts:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/3075#post_11860820
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/3075#post_11860854
  
 I am posting here to avoid off topics.
  
@Noodlz
@stuartmc
  
 Today I had the chance to finally compare directly two DACs I own: the Yulong D200 and the Gustard X12.
 All the listenings were made through my linux player (ubuntu server 15.04 + mpd + upmpdcli - Atom D510 with a Linear Power Supply).
 Also, the Schiit Wyrd was always used. The headphone amp is the Gustard H10 while I have used my best headphone, the Sennheiser HD650.
  
 Test setups:
  
 1) Player -> Audioquest Cinnamon 0.75m -> Wyrd -> Audioquest Cinnamon 0.75m -> Yulong D200 -> Balanced Cables -> Gustard H10 -> HD650
 2) Player -> Audioquest Cinnamon 0.75m -> Wyrd -> Audioquest Cinnamon 0.75m -> Gustard X12 -> Balanced Cables -> Gustard H10 -> HD650
 2) Player -> Audioquest Cinnamon 0.75m -> Wyrd -> Audioquest Cinnamon 0.75m -> Gustard U12 -> Ricable HDMI Cable -> Gustard X12 -> Balanced Cables -> Gustard H10 -> HD650
  
 There are no night & day differences, but I would say setup 1 is the one which delivers the least amount of details. Also, the listening was definitely more fun with the X12. I think this is due to a more dynamic presentation.
 The X12 behaves even better when using the U12 and the I2S (via HDMI) connection, which is my current setup.
  
 Of course, I could not use the Yulong U12 interface with the D200 (at least not with a I2S connection, and I did not have the time to try coaxial, but this would have multiplicated the setups).
  
 In this test I did not use the D200 built-in headphone amplifier. The D200 is quite good as a stand alone dac/amp, but it just cannot compete with the Gustard H10 as a Headphone Amp.


----------



## Noodlz

Niiice! I guess that confirms my suspicion that the Gustard X12 is superior to the D200~ Gonna save up for that X20 and use the D200 as my bedside unit lol.
  
 Also to note: there is a significant (read: Day&Night) difference when sourcing from my macbook pro vs from an iphone or ipad via the CCK. I discovered this when i was debating on whether or not to sell the wyrd. When connected to my iDevices, the wyrd + U12 >> D200 didnt make much audible difference as far as i could tell, so i was about to put it up for sale, but then when i switched back to my macbook the sound quality dropped significantly (soundstage got much smaller, loss of details, muddying imaging, weaker bass). Plugging the wyrd back in fixed some of it but is still not up to par with connecting to the iDevice.
  
 I'm thinking that in the future i may pick up a REGEN unit, but then again i could probably just listen to all of my stuff from iphone anyway (90% of the stuff i listen to is from Tidal or spotify or itunes), so maybe i won't really need it~


----------



## Wynnytsky

giof71 said:


> Of course, I could not use the *Yulong* U12 interface with the D200
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
 (some edits)
  
 Q: which "filtering" setting was the X12 on? (slow or sharp)
  
 I found the "sharp" setting to be somewhat of a loudness button that exaggerated things.  "slow" was more believable to my ear and it still had more punch than my Yulong D18.  Yet the D18 had the most un-forced sound that I could listen to for the longest.  My ear has likely already acclimated to years of listening to the D18's soft top end so I can't say my impression is entirely objective.  I am looking forward to documenting my account of these...
  
 IFI U12 I2S X20
 IFI U12 I2S X12
 IFI PUC2 AES D18
  
 @Gustard - if you're reading this, please ...
  
 1) be the first to add a system-task-tray dialog window to your XMOS driver [for DACs and USB transport] that allows us to switch inputs from the PC.  Should be cheaper than an IR remote.  Only doing it for MS windows should suit my needs just fine, thank you 
 2) replace optical with a 2nd I2S (everywhere!)
  
 Do this for us and splitting hairs will never be easier!
  
  
 (edited out my own erroneous double negative)


----------



## BassDigger

wynnytsky said:


> ....
> 
> @Gustard - if you're reading this, please ...
> 
> ...


 
  
 @Gustard
 Wot he said, plus: Do you fancy having a dabble with making a multibit R2R dac?


----------



## GioF71

wynnytsky said:


> (some edits)
> 
> Q: which "filtering" setting was the X12 on? (slow or sharp)
> 
> ...




Hello, I use "Slow".


----------



## genclaymore

The problem with replacing optical with I2s is that some people connect their sound cards to their external dac's thru optical to send the sound card features to the dac. Without optical they would have to use a optical to coaxial box between the two and do it that way if they wanted to use it or use a differnet model of gustard. Unless creative and asus replaces optical on their cards with Coaxial or stick I2S or AES/Ebu on their cards but the chances of them doing that is nill.  They could stick another I2S and AES/Bbu on their devices without removing any existing connections.
  
 I tried slow but I didn't listen to it for a long time, but one day i might to see how it sound to me.


----------



## Wynnytsky

I do keep hearing about macbook owners that want to use their optical outs.  I crossed computer optical off my list without ever evaluating it once.  I've been objective in just about every area, accept looking for an alternative to a computer's USB output.
  
 I noticed Tanly dropped optical-out.  Our heads are in the same place.
 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NTpS4gEen3E/VIcTc25ViwI/AAAAAAAAAOk/PlHWoMF948o/s1600/sdif_3.jpg


----------



## BassDigger

wynnytsky said:


> I do keep hearing about macbook owners that want to use their optical outs.  I crossed computer optical off my list without ever evaluating it once.  I've been objective in just about every area, accept looking for an alternative to a computer's USB output.
> 
> *I noticed Tanly dropped optical-out.*  Our heads are in the same place.
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NTpS4gEen3E/VIcTc25ViwI/AAAAAAAAAOk/PlHWoMF948o/s1600/sdif_3.jpg


 
  
 Did you mean optical output, or _input_?
 It would be nice, for Mac owners (and others who are concerned about RFI), if it had an optical input.
 But from what you're saying, if it ever did, it doesn't anymore!


----------



## Wynnytsky

bassdigger said:


> Did you mean optical output, or _input_?


 
 USB transport aka USB interface aka DDC only has a USB input.
 This device is significantly better at converting async-digital (USB) to sync-digital (optical/spdif/aes/i2s) compared to your typical motherboard.
 But this device will be of no use to someone who's got their heart on using their own PC/laptop's optical out.
  
 The internet tells me optical is the worst of the bunch.  Now if the internet could eliminate 2 more then life should be better for all of us.


----------



## BassDigger

wynnytsky said:


> USB transport aka USB interface aka DDC only has a USB input.
> This device is significantly better at converting async-digital (USB) to sync-digital (optical/spdif/aes/i2s) compared to your typical motherboard.
> But this device will be of no use to someone who's got their heart on using their own PC/laptop's optical out.
> 
> The internet tells me optical is the worst of the bunch.  Now if the internet could eliminate 2 more then life should be better for all of us.


 
  
 I prefer to avoid pc/usb audio altogether; I use an SD card player. But there's still the question of connection; there are several options, and the best (I²S) is both rare and has little standardisation!


----------



## Wynnytsky

@BassDigger I noticed you have a Cambridge DAC 3
 I googled it and I saw a review from the late 90s, which I suppose is like a Porche from the early 70s.  I assume it's stellar among ladder dacs.  When my x20 is broken in I'm going to plead my friend to bring over his lampi5 (I *think* that's a ladder dac).  I'm done reading about r2r - my ears are eager to compare them.
  
 I had a Cambridge Azur 540 receiver and I thought the spdif input sounded terrific.  It had that integrated immediacy that I'm hoping i2s will bring to my separates.


----------



## BassDigger

Oooh! Car similes! I wouldn't call the Cambridge DAC 3 a Porsche; they're built well. Although, there are different models that look the same (even with the same name), but perform quite differently. Although, none of them are duffers.
 Actually, it may have been the Lampizator's website that helped start my R2R journey. My dac3 is basically the separate dac version of the Cambridge CD3 cd player that he attempted to mod, many moons ago. 
 The guy who modified my dac 3 isn't the biggest fan of his work, but appreciates what he's done to help draw attention to the goodness of old skool multibit stuff.
  
 I thought that the Lampi5 had the same R-2R chip as my dac3, but it appears that Lukas has moved into the modern age now; the L5 is DSD capable. So, I guess with his love of 'tubing' things, it's some kind of tubed up variant of a modern DS dac. And not R2R. Although, I could be wrong. Whatever, it'll make an interesting comparison against the X20!


----------



## motberg

wynnytsky said:


> USB transport aka USB interface aka DDC only has a USB input.
> This device is significantly better at converting async-digital (USB) to sync-digital (optical/spdif/aes/i2s) compared to your typical motherboard.
> But this device will be of no use to someone who's got their heart on using their own PC/laptop's optical out.
> 
> The internet tells me optical is the worst of the bunch.  Now if the internet could eliminate 2 more then life should be better for all of us.


 
  
 If someone is looking for a decent optical-in DDC, the Audio-GD DDC's have optical input as a switchable option. I was using a DI-V3 and it a was pretty nice feature (I used with a CD Player with optical out), a better quality optical cable improved the SQ over the standard cable provided free by the store.


----------



## Mashi-Maro

Hi. Has anyone had chance to compare the Gustard X20 vs the LKS MHA003?
  
 Cheers.


----------



## nel1s

hi all - I was wondering whether any of the Gustard (or other Asian) amps can outperform something like the Amphion Amp100? Also asked here, with more details on system: http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/2535#post_11936009


----------



## Triplefun

mashi-maro said:


> Hi. Has anyone had chance to compare the Gustard X20 vs the LKS MHA003?
> 
> Cheers.


 
 More importantly, has anyone  been able to compare a x10 or x12 with the x20. Is the x20 a justified upgrade?


----------



## stuartmc

triplefun said:


> More importantly, has anyone  been able to compare a x10 or x12 with the x20. Is the x20 a justified upgrade?


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/780385/gustard-x20-dac.    Everything we know, so far.....


----------



## robotz

Sorry for the stupid question: if I use XRL to RCA adapters in X10/12 DAC have I still the greater output voltage XLR provides vs. RCA output? Or have I to use XLR cables?


----------



## m0reilly

a fine question.
 no, sorry.
 buy xlrs. you can get a decent price if you buy pro cables. mogami comes to mind. great cable/ends, easy on the wallet


----------



## robotz

thanks
 so I should buy a cable with XLR at one end and RCA at the other end or should the amp have XLR inputs? (to preserve the greater voltage output of the DAC via XLR)
 thanks in advance


----------



## Wynnytsky

m0reilly said:


> mogami comes to mind. great cable/ends, easy on the wallet


 
 http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/balancedaudio/index.htm
 for $30 these guys will put Neutrik heads on a Beldin 1800F cable in any color+length of your choice.  I wonder if bluejean could also permanently attach a Neutrik or Canare XLR/SPDIF transformer at one end for those people that can't use XLR on both ends.
  
 I think everyone should start with one of those and a $7 Belkin gold USB cable.
 They also make a great benchmark to quantify improvement after your system is tricked out and you're prepared to spend north of $200 of a cable.


----------



## BassDigger

robotz said:


> thanks
> so I should buy* a cable with* *XLR at one end and RCA* at the other end or should the amp have XLR inputs? (to preserve the *greater voltage output* of the DAC via XLR)
> thanks in advance


 
  
 Maybe I don't understand what you're trying to do, or the particulars of your dac and amp, but it seems to me like you're creating a problem that doesn't need solving; if your dac has xlr outputs, it'll most likely also have rca. So, why are you trying to connect xlr to rca? You can only use the connection protocol that both devices share, and rca is the most common.
  
 Balanced may have a higher voltage (I don't know), but as I understand it, it's basically the same signal as rca, but with grounded (earthed) screening. This should have a benefit for very long runs (say 3-5m+), but for everyday connections the benefits of xlr vs rca are hotly debated. In other words: there's no definite advantage.
  
 If your kit has xlr connections (on both components) get a balanced cable (don't pay too much) and enjoy the possible benefits. If they only have rca, then get a standard interconnect and be the same as the majority of us; happy with that.
  
 Incidentally, some directional rca interconnects will give the benefit of what you're effectively trying to do (earth the screening at the source); they have screening earthed with the return signal, at one end. Some would argue that this is potentially superior to xlr, as it isn't passing interference from one component's casing to another.
 I couldn't tell you models or brands, just don't spend too much; cables, whilst important, are the most 'snake oiled' products that I know of!


----------



## LancerFIN

wynnytsky said:


> http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/balancedaudio/index.htm
> for $30 these guys will put Neutrik heads on a Beldin 1800F cable in any color+length of your choice.  I wonder if bluejean could also permanently attach a Neutrik or Canare XLR/SPDIF transformer at one end for those people that can't use XLR on both ends.


 
 http://www.ghentaudio.com/part/a03.html
  
 Ghent is a lot cheaper.


----------



## Wynnytsky

lancerfin said:


> http://www.ghentaudio.com/part/a03.html
> 
> Ghent is a lot cheaper.


 
 indeed you'll save $10 but Canare DA206 has 12% higher capacitance than Belden 1800F
 (I don't doubt the Neutrik connectors are identical)
  
 do you use the ghent USB cables?  I wonder how the Belkin Gold would fare against those.


----------



## m0reilly

lancerfin said:


> http://www.ghentaudio.com/part/a03.html
> 
> Ghent is a lot cheaper.


 

 thanks for the link. those look super.


----------



## LancerFIN

wynnytsky said:


> indeed you'll save $10 but Canare DA206 has 12% higher capacitance than Belden 1800F
> (I don't doubt the Neutrik connectors are identical)
> 
> do you use the ghent USB cables?  I wonder how the Belkin Gold would fare against those.


 

 That is meant for AES/EBU connection.
 Why use it to connect between X12 and H10?


----------



## Wynnytsky

lancerfin said:


> That is meant for AES/EBU connection.
> Why use it to connect between X12 and H10?


 
 indeed you are right.  @robotz is looking for analog interconnects.
  
 As I get older it's only going to get worse.


----------



## genclaymore

I used AES cables which i got from mono-price to connect Gustard X12 XLR to my JBL 305 XLR's inputs and those work without issues. I didn't think they would as I originally had XLR cables that wasn't long enough to even use to do it.Since I originally had the XLR cables for the X12 to the H10. Just as long you don't go try to plug XLR cables into the AES plug on the Gustard X12 as it wont work right in reverse because of the XLR cable not being made around aes specs and would cause issues.


----------



## bavinck

Hi guys,
 I have sold my x12 and misplaced my windows driver installation disc. Can I find this online or would someone be willing to send me a download link for their copy? Thanks a bunch guys!


----------



## Triplefun

bavinck said:


> Hi guys,
> I have sold my x12 and misplaced my windows driver installation disc. Can I find this online or would someone be willing to send me a download link for their copy? Thanks a bunch guys!


 
  
  see http://jlsounds.com/drivers.html for XMOS driver options. I am using v26 with no issues


----------



## bavinck

triplefun said:


> see http://jlsounds.com/drivers.html for XMOS driver options. I am using v26 with no issues


 
 Thanks very much. I am in contact with the ebay vendor I bought it from to get the drivers but you know how that can go....


----------



## wwmhf

Anyone have tried the 3.20 driver? Here is the link to this driver:
  
 http://pan.baidu.com/s/1V7oJG
  
 I got a security warning when I tried install it.


----------



## Triplefun

I haven't tried it yet but see .....
 http://www.xmos.com/support/usb-audio-driver-support for an alternative 3.2 source.


----------



## canthearyou

I received my X12 from latest drop. I get absolutely zero sound from both balanced and unbalanced outputs. Not to mention the display characters are almost unreadable.


----------



## Triplefun

have you checked the voltage? There is an internal 110/220 V switch between the transformers. If this is set to 220v and you are running  110v then you would get the symptoms you are experiencing.


----------



## canthearyou

triplefun said:


> have you checked the voltage? There is an internal 110/220 V switch between the transformers. If this is set to 220v and you are running  110v then you would get the symptoms you are experiencing.




Ha! That's probably it. It shipped with EU* plug. The unit itself was labeled 115v. I'll take it apart after dinner and have a look.

Didn't wait. That was it. Thank you!


----------



## m0reilly

i was going to say...i checked mine right after unboxing it. never know...


----------



## canthearyou

The funny thing is they blacked out the 220v on the chassis and left the 115v visible. I just assumed they shipped the wrong plug. It took less than 2 mins to remove the cover and switch the power supplies. I blame myself!

This thing paired with the H10 and 400i is absolutely amazing!


----------



## gruvytune

3.20 driver works perfectly here.


----------



## wwmhf

gruvytune said:


> 3.20 driver works perfectly here.


 
  
 Did your computer give you any security warning when you was installing it?


----------



## gruvytune

Nope.  worked fine.  running windows 10.


----------



## Triplefun

Here's how to load the Thesycon XMOS driver on Windows 10 and Foobar 1.3.9 ..
  
 I installed the driver from http://www.xmos.com/support/usb-audio-driver-support on Windows 10 64bit.
 I did not have process a signature free process.
  
 I am using the Gustard X20u.
 I installed SACD decoder 0.9.6 and ASIO support 2.1.2 on Foobar 1.3.9.
  
 When you install the above driver it creates a C:\Thesycon directory
 Go to C:\Thesycon\TUSBAudio_v3.20.0\EvaluationKit\DriverPackages
 And execute VAL_KITS_DEMO_DriverSetup_v3.20.0_dbg.exe to load the Thesycon XMOS  ASIO driver
 Select TUSBAudio ASIO Driver under foo_dsd_asio
  
 The default Theyscon sample rate is 352800hz 24bits with options to change the USB streaming latency, ASIO buffer size and volume.
  
 I can successfully upsample all outputs in Foobar to DSD128 for processing by the X20u.
 Presumably the same will be true for the U12 and X12.
  
 Note this is a demo Thesycon driver and beeps every 5 minutes after 60 minutes.
 I have since gone back to v2.23 XMOS ASIO driver downloaded from http://jlsounds.com/drivers.html
 The v2.26 download now gives me a security error.


----------



## canthearyou

Question: Are you able to keep the backlight on X12 on at all times? And does the USB input require any power from the host?

Edit:I removed only power from usb cable and unit did not turn on. So it does require 5v from usb.


----------



## mocenigo

m0reilly said:


> i was going to say...i checked mine right after unboxing it. never know...


 

 I did the same with the X20 (but in this case the switch from 115 to 230 is outside, you do not have to open the box)
  
  Roberto


----------



## mocenigo

robotz said:


> Sorry for the stupid question: if I use XRL to RCA adapters in X10/12 DAC have I still the greater output voltage XLR provides vs. RCA output? Or have I to use XLR cables?


 

 The X12 and X20 (and, AFAIK) the X20 have both balanced outputs (with XLR connections) and unbalanced outputs (with RCA connections).
 If your preamp/amp has only RCA inputs, ground and cold are usually connected together, but this means that the cold signal (which is the negative of the hot signal) is just discarded, so you do not get increased voltage. You do not even get the advantages of having the shield connected to the earth ground and chassis, in fact you risk injecting airborne noise into the signal.
  
 The best connection if your pre only supports RCA is to use good RCA to RCA cables. These should actually have the shield connected to the signal ground (if everything is done properly).
  
  Roberto


----------



## mocenigo

I always wondered whether in one of the pics used to show the innards of the Gustard they actually showed one model wth a broken PCB... 
  
  Roberto


----------



## glip

Hi there! Hi ansi! I bought the GUSTARD u12 to used with a Mac Mini CORE i7, 2.3 ghz, with OS X MAVERICK (10.9.5) but it seem that the plug and play has a problem with the versión that I have... so I think I need the DRIVERS... How can a get in touch with the company GUSTARD?? I am connecting it like this:
  
 Mac Mini---usb cable---GUSTARD u12---- optic cable to MUSICAL FIDELITY V90 DAC---to my sound system... 
  
 I have all ready try 2 usb cables... should try an other???
  
 thank for your help!!
  
 Felipe


----------



## Sam21

Does anyone know which DAC chip is inside the Gustard U12 ?


----------



## Triplefun

The U12 is not a DAC. It converts a USB audio signal using 8 Core XMOS chip to a number of digital audio outputs including SPDIF, COAX and I2S.


----------



## heliosphann

I'm running a X12/H10 combo and when I use my DX80 coax-out, I get a second or two delay when the tracks have a higher bit-rate/sample-rate. Anyone have this issue? It's pretty annoying. I think it's the X12 because when I used my SMSL m8 I didn't have the delay.


----------



## canthearyou

heliosphann said:


> I'm running a X12/H10 combo and when I use my DX80 coax-out, I get a second or two delay when the tracks have a higher bit-rate/sample-rate. Anyone have this issue? It's pretty annoying. I think it's the X12 because when I used my SMSL m8 I didn't have the delay.




I have the X12/H10 combo using USB. I don't think I have that issue, but I'll check later this evening.


----------



## wadi

Any news from Gustard balanced amplifier?


----------



## sr2002

I am copy pasting my post from another thread, please pardon me for that. 
  
 I was considering the Gustard X12, but had some questions about the customer server and support. 
  
 Can you guys please provide some details on your experience with Warranty/driver support? 
  
 I was planning to buy the XMOS USB controller version, will this version work with any XMOS USB driver/ is there a unified driver for XMOS or do you have to rely on Gustard to provide them? 
 Also, any experience with long term reliability of this DAC?
  
 I am planning to connect he LSR305s through the ballanced output and was wondering can the volume be controlled through windows volume control? Is there another way? 
  
 I am comparing the Gustard X12, Cambridge audio DacMagic Plus and the Audio-gd NFB-1DAC. Any thoughts or experiences on these as compared to the Gustard X12? 
  
 I have post made a post on the intro forums regarding my concerns and questions, please feel free to drop your replies, I would realy appreciate it. 
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/802593/dac-recommendations-returning-audio-enthusiast-audio-gd-vs-other-offerings


----------



## sr2002

To add on top of that:
  
 I recently stumbled upon this: 
 http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-dac-x9-xmos-dsd-usb-balanced-analog-decoder-double-parallel-wm8741.html
  
 I can't find any reviews or posts related to the Gustard X9.
  
 The price is perfect and it seems to have all the connectivity of the X12.
 Any thoughts on this versus the ES9018 chips? Anyone use the X9 or reviewed it?


----------



## lenroot77

Deleted


----------



## wadi

Guys can i connect my pc through hdmi out of graphics card to I2s input of X12? Can this connection carry uncompressed 5.1 signal as hdmi does?


----------



## Sechtdamon

Hey guys, i have a problem with my Gustard U12, and since main thread of it is closed, i wanted to ask on this thread.
  
 My Gustard U12 have slight mechanical hum. Not carried through audio chain to my ears but its power supply (i guess) making audible noise when it's powered up. Is it a common problem? Or is it a problem? Do all U12s making that slight noise?


----------



## Triplefun

NO. The HDMI cable is only used for convenience to provide a quality I2S link. There is no video signal. Other DACs use RJ45. And there are minimal standards. The Gustard HDMI pin configuration for I2S differs from that of more established DACs (eg. PS Audio).


----------



## canthearyou

sechtdamon said:


> Hey guys, i have a problem with my Gustard U12, and since main thread of it is closed, i wanted to ask on this thread.
> 
> My Gustard U12 have slight mechanical hum. Not carried through audio chain to my ears but its power supply (i guess) making audible noise when it's powered up. Is it a common problem? Or is it a problem? Do all U12s making that slight noise?




My U12 is dead silent.


----------



## PWGuy

So I have a Gustard X12 - when I power it on and connect it via USB (with built-in USB) to my Windows 10 laptop, the X12 display shows "USB 96K".  How do I have it up-sample to 192K?  I have it setup in the Microsoft Sound config for the Dac setup for 24-bit/192K.
  
 Any ideas?  I'm using 2.26 XMOS driver.  Also have a Jitterbug inline and a Regen on the other side pre-X12 USB connection.


----------



## canthearyou

pwguy said:


> So I have a Gustard X12 - when I power it on and connect it via USB (with built-in USB) to my Windows 10 laptop, the X12 display shows "USB 96K".  How do I have it up-sample to 192K?  I have it setup in the Microsoft Sound config for the Dac setup for 24-bit/192K.
> 
> Any ideas?  I'm using 2.26 XMOS driver.  Also have a Jitterbug inline and a Regen on the other side pre-X12 USB connection.




The X12 doesn't upsample. Play a 24/192k file and it will display the rate.


----------



## PWGuy

Then why do all of my Flacs in Foobar2000 show 96k on the X12 when they are 44.1/16-bit?  And before I had this laptop, the screen previously read 192k with the same exact files.


----------



## canthearyou

pwguy said:


> Then why do all of my Flacs in Foobar2000 show 96k on the X12 when they are 44.1/16-bit?  And before I had this laptop, the screen previously read 192k with the same exact files.




I believe because Foobar was doing the upsample.


----------



## PWGuy

canthearyou said:


> I believe because Foobar was doing the upsample.


 

 You were absolutely right - thank you!  Fixed


----------



## canthearyou

pwguy said:


> You were absolutely right - thank you!  Fixed




Glad you got it figured out.


----------



## Iving

ansi said:


> *Gustard - who are they?*
> 
> Mr. Huang wants to establish the Gustard brand abroad, and also wants to make sure the foreign customers get the service they deserve.
> By service, Huang means being involved with the community and handling warranty directly. They currently have zero return rate from their partners and resellers, and they suspect part of it may be due to people just not returning faulty units, either because they don’t know they have warranty or don’t know how to return the product. They want people to know that they will honor warranty for every product that says Gustard on it, no matter where you bought it.
> ...


 
  
 I have a probably faulty Gustard U12. It hums when a live USB device is connected - including a battery-powered tablet PC. I bought it just less than a year ago from ebay seller "along1986090" who is belligerently unresponsive (i.e., has sent a single reply message asking whether the hum started recently but otherwise refuses to answer e-mails or ebay messages). I cannot find contact info for Gustard or Huang. Assuming there is a 12 months warranty I have but days to register a claim but cannot do so. I would appreciate 1) other Gustard U12 owners confirming that their units do or don't hum and 2) any contact info for Gustard / Huang. TIA for any helpful responses.


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## Iving

sechtdamon said:


> Hey guys, i have a problem with my Gustard U12, and since main thread of it is closed, i wanted to ask on this thread.
> 
> My Gustard U12 have slight mechanical hum. Not carried through audio chain to my ears but its power supply (i guess) making audible noise when it's powered up. Is it a common problem? Or is it a problem? Do all U12s making that slight noise?


 

 Yep - Me too - see above


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## Iving

canthearyou said:


> My U12 is dead silent.


 

 Including when an electrically live USB device is attached?


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## canthearyou

iving said:


> Including when an electrically live USB device is attached?



Not sure what that means, but it is silent during use.


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## Iving

Thank you
 Then the hum experienced by* Sechtdamon* and me is in all probability a fault - it has been suggested to me "cheap transformers" - and seemingly there is nothing we can do about it - whether involving ebay Sellers - or the manufacturer - even if we are within 12 months. If anybody else knows different (WHERE ARE YOU MR HUANG!), please let us know.


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## gulakpi

I read the hum from *Sechtdamon's machine is a mechanical hum from the vibration of the transformer.  Is your the same?  Or were you talking abut electrically induced hum?*
*If it is caused by electrically coupled/induced, you may try to reverse the AC plug. No harm to try!*


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## Iving

Mine sounds like electrical hum. The unit is silent when plugged in to the mains. BUt if *any* electrically live USB device is attached (necessary of course for audio) - it hums. This includes a battery-powered tablet PC.


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## floydfan33

I have an X12 incoming and have 3 questions for existing users.
  
 - Is the HDMI connector exclusively for connecting the U12, or can I feed it audio signal from my Oppo BDP-103?
 - Many users seem to use the U12 with the X12. Is there some failings with the USB in on the X12 alone?
 - early models seemed to have reversed channels on DSD? Is this still the case with new shipments?


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## canthearyou

floydfan33 said:


> I have an X12 incoming and have 3 questions for existing users.
> 
> - Is the HDMI connector exclusively for connecting the U12, or can I feed it audio signal from my Oppo BDP-103?
> - Many users seem to use the U12 with the X12. Is there some failings with the USB in on the X12 alone?
> - early models seemed to have reversed channels on DSD? Is this still the case with new shipments?




The I2S(HDMI) connector is for connecting to a DAC only. Do not connect it to a DVD/Blu-Ray player.

I noticed more clarity/quieter background when using U12 over my X12.

DSD sounds fine on my setup.


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## dzunghv

Hi mans,
 Could you please compare X12 vs Bifrost Multibit somehow ?
 Which one sounds better?


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## WilliamLeonhart

Can anyone give me a comparison between the x20 and x12? Does the x20 allow opamp rolling?

Also, it would be great if I can get a comparison with the Aune s16


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## canthearyou

williamleonhart said:


> Can anyone give me a comparison between the x20 and x12? Does the x20 allow opamp rolling?
> 
> Also, it would be great if I can get a comparison with the Aune s16




Well, they are both DACS so I don't think you'll be doing much opamp rolling.


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## ForgottenSpy

Meanwhile Gustard is presenting new model Gustard A20H, fully balanced with double AK4497 chips, discrete amplifier and so on.
  
 All inputs support DSD:
 IIS supports DSD64、DSD128、DSD256、DSD512
 SPDIF、Optical、AES/EBU supports DSD64 （DOP);
 USB supports DSD64、DSD128、DSD256; 
  
 Here is few pictures of upcoming release:


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## canthearyou

forgottenspy said:


> Meanwhile Gustard is presenting new model Gustard A20H, fully balanced with double AK4497 chips, discrete amplifier and so on.
> 
> All inputs support DSD:
> IIS supports DSD64、DSD128、DSD256、DSD512
> ...


 
 Nice!!! A cool piece of gear for me to try out this winter!


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## ForgottenSpy

canthearyou said:


> Nice!!! A cool piece of gear for me to try out this winter!


 
  
 After my posting i have found that head-fi already has dedicated thread, so check it out:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/819083/gustard-a20h-dac-dual-ak4497eq-analog-preamp-headphone-amp-all-in-one


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## llcook51

When I connect my X-12 to my computer (running windows 10) via the USB, the computer does not recognize the DAC. Do I need to download additional drivers?
 If so, where do I go for the download/
 Thanks.


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## Triplefun

Hi
  
 You need to download windows XMOS USB 2 drivers
 Apparently Windows 10 anniversary now has built in USB 2.0 support but I have not tried this
  
 This is the Tabao Gustard site - Chinese
https://world.taobao.com/item/18012850492.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4002-620452546.23.gzQGpy
  
 The Windows 10 driver (v3.20) can be download from here
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1V7oJG
  
 Once loaded click on the download icon on the top row (slightly right off centre)
 Then click the left hand button in the pop up for acceptance


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## taetertot

Gustard X12: can you connect both RCA and balanced outs, and then toggle between them with an output switch? Can X20 do this?


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## Triplefun

The X20 and X12 output to both RCA and XLR simultaneously. In order to switch the outputs I suggest you invest in a small preamp.

 For example see https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Finished-Mini-Fully-Balanced-Passive-Preamp-HiFi-Pre-Amplifier-XLR-RCA-Volume-Controller-With-toggle-switch/1499523_32749234407.html


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## bwanaaa

What is the output impedance of the x20 balanced and unbalanced outputs?
I want to drive my power amps directly


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## bwanaaa

What is the output impedance of the x20 balanced and unbalanced outputs?
I want to drive my power amps directly


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## Joong

I think more important thing is the maximum input voltage if your power amp.
The input impedance of amp is quite high so that output impedance us not a problem.


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## bwanaaa

I am not an electrical engineer but after reading this
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-to-match-preamp-and-power-amp
It seems that matching an amp to a preamp is important. I did discover that the output impedance of the x20 is 100 ohms.


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## Joong

The matching impedance is for very high frequency signal that the wave length is comparable to the size of electronics.
 The audio is very long wave length so that it is irrelevant to the matching.
 There is some myth on this world.
 The input impedance of the amplifier more than several kilo ohms, which is far higher than that of the output impedance.
 Only concerns might be that the higher swing of the preamp will clamp the signal, and the the sound will be muddy.
 In general, the matching might be something not for the impedance but something other like harmonic sensitivities / transmission / as regarding the power amp as seen as filter.
 X20 has volume control and will be matched well to your amp.
  
 Merry Christmas.


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## gug42

Hello

Anyone have compared x9 and x12  ?  
The x9 price is very attracrive... And i fear the sabre to be a little bright ...

Any advice to choose between them ?


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## Feilong4

Anyone got a Gustard X9 they were looking to sell? I have feedback here on Head-Fi and am in the US.


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## HPLovecraft

Someone knows the official address of gustard website ? I want see all new products but i can't find it :/


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## ForgottenSpy

AFAIK there is no such.
If you need to see their products, just check Gustard's official store at taobao.


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## wwmhf

HPLovecraft said:


> Someone knows the official address of gustard website ? I want see all new products but i can't find it :/



Their web page is still a mystery to all of us.


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## ForgottenSpy

Only because there is none.


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## allinhead

Hi people ! 
Do you know how To contact gustard for warranty ? I never had respons  from theme 
mail : gustard@163.com
Thanks you


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