# Xonar Essence ST Sneak Peek



## ROBSCIX

Hey guys, seems the STX has become a great card for many and ASUS has decided they will eventually release a PCI version of the Essence known as the Xonar Essence ST. The two main differences between these cards is the ST is a PCI soundcard and the ST allows the use of a expansion board allowing full analog 7.1. 
 While the ST allows full 7.1 analog, the card remains true to it's roots and still offers all the headphone features of the STX.
 Here is the full sneak peak for those interested. LINK


 Opinions?


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## Bmac

Rob,

 You state in your preview that there is something a little different about the response compared to the STX. Could you possibly expand on what those differences are?

 Thanks.


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## ROBSCIX

The sound signature, it is just different. When I looked over the design to figure what they may have done differently, I noticed a different clock circuit. How much the clock can influence the sound signature is debatable, however the card sounds different to me.


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## Winterlord

That's a good idea to start a new thread for this card, The old one was long as it is already. I will ask my questions from the previous thread here as well - Is there any word on pricing and release dates? Will the add-on module be sold with the retail version or as a standalone add-on to the card?

 Are the sonic differences between this card and the STX worthy of a detailed comparison or is it just a slight change/improvement?


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## ROBSCIX

No word on pricing nor release date. ASUS doesn't take very long to go from drawing board to the market place. There is also no information to suggest how the card will be released. I am unsure if the ST will be in a Deluxe form, offering the expansion board right form the start or if the expansion board will be offered down the road. I just do not have that information.


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## Bojamijams

I wonder if the clock is different becaues its a PCI interface instead of a PCI-E

 Now the real question is.. is it better? 

 Ugh you know what... maybe its better not to ask that. I don't want buyer's remorse


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## henuM

Holy ****! And what asus thinking about when after few months launching new flagship after another


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## genclaymore

The thing is this for folks who dont have a spare pcie so this really make sense. like those with sli setups with there pcie slots covered. Or are planning to use a card which covers it and what not.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *henuM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Holy ****! And what asus thinking about when after few months launching new flagship after another 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This is not a new flagship model. The ST is a variation on the STX...


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## riderforever

I've not read yet a serious comparison between the STX/ST versions in terms of sonic signature, despite all the requests. Also in the article you are really vague:
  Quote:


 The card has a similar sonic flavor presented by the Essence STX however, there is something a little different about the response. The ST has a crystal clear ultra detailed sound combined with warmth and articulation for bass, mids and high frequencies alike. 
 

What do you mean? Doesn't the STX have _a crystal clear ultra detailed sound combined with warmth and articulation for bass, mids and high frequencies_ as well??
  Quote:


 This opamp configuration not only allows you to install higher quality units but also allows you to tune certain channels more to their duty. For instance there is a separate I/V opamp for the center and subwoofer outputs. You could use a 2107 for increased clarity on the center channel and install an OPA2227 for better bass response for the subwoofer channel. 
 

Is it a good idea to use two different I/V converter opamp with the same output buffer?

 BTW, I forgot to mention: really nice pictures


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## atx 6speed

Damn, and I JUST bought my new soundcard. If this card ends up being as good as the STX (which I'm sure it will be) I'll probably make the switchover.


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## henuM

Quote:


 Damn, and I JUST bought my new soundcard. If this card ends up being as good as the STX (which I'm sure it will be) I'll probably make the switchover. 
 

Same here...


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've not read yet a serious comparison between the STX/ST versions in terms of sonic signature, despite all the requests. Also in the article you are really vague:_

 

Yes, That was just a sneak peak not a full on review. There is nothing to suggest the card I currently have will end up being the exact card desing that ASUS releases to the public. I have a engineering sample, when the actual production version comes out I will do a full review and most likely compare cards then. This is just a quick look at this new hardware for the audio community...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you mean? Doesn't the STX have a crystal clear ultra detailed sound combined with warmth and articulation for bass, mids and high frequencies as well??_

 

Yes the STX has the same type of sound, I wrote the information for people that have never heard a STX and people who have. 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it a good idea to use two different I/V converter opamp with the same output buffer?_

 

They were just suggestions and I have tried this configuration with great success on the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe. 
 The output buffer amplifier is shared between the center and subwoofer but the channels are seperate, so it doesn't make a difference. I was just putting out ideas for people to consider.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, I forgot to mention: really nice pictures 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanx I would like to think I am getting better over time.


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## Alydon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Is it a good idea to use two different I/V converter opamp with the same output buffer?_

 

I believe ROBSCIX is referring to swapping opamps on the expansion card. If you look there, each channel has its own buffer and its own opamps, so mixing and matching from channel to channel is possible.

 Yo ROBSCIX, when you listened to the ST and noted a different sound than the STX were you listening through the HP-out or RCA's? Or both? 

 Also, did you hear any differences between the engineering and retail samples of the STX? I ask since maybe the differences you hear between the STX and ST are because your ST is an engineering sample...


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alydon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe ROBSCIX is referring to swapping opamps on the expansion card. If you look there, each channel has its own buffer and its own opamps, so mixing and matching from channel to channel is possible._

 

Exactly, I used a similar setup when running the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe. Which the H6 DAC Expansion board is currently bundled with.
 I would never use two different I/V for a stereo pai like the Fronts etc. For the Center and subwoofer though you can think of them as a mono pair.
 Using different opamps for the I/V for those channels is fine.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alydon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yo ROBSCIX, when you listened to the ST and noted a different sound than the STX were you listening through the HP-out or RCA's? Or both? _

 

I tested the card fully using on hand headphones (HD595, Beats) monitors and speakers system. -Same gear I used when testing the STX except for the surround system.
 TO note, I tested the STX using monitors and headphones first before I pulled out the surround channels.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alydon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, did you hear any differences between the engineering and retail samples of the STX? I ask since maybe the differences you hear between the STX and ST are because your ST is an engineering sample..._

 

No, the Eng sample of the STX sounded the same as the production version.

 Maybe I will see if I can do a side by side with them this week and post it for those interested.


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## fine art acoustic

Dear Robscix, wich chip is on this board is it the AV100 like STX or the AV200 like HADV1.3 ?


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## scytheavatar

Any idea on the price? Will it be a lot more expensive than the STX?


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## henuM

Quote:


 Maybe I will see if I can do a side by side with them this week and post it for those interested. 
 

Please, only you now can tell us where is ST and STX differences...


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dear Robscix, wich chip is on this board is it the AV100 like STX or the AV200 like HADV1.3 ?_

 

The card is exactly the same as the STX except for noted differences such as the PCI interface, clock circuitry and the Pin header.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *henuM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please, only you now can tell us where is ST and STX differences..._

 

I will see what I can do and possibly test both side by side this week.
 I noted a difference in the signature but there wasn't a noticible quality change, where the ST was much better then the STX.


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## fzman

Hey Robscix! it looks like the st has the power 4-pin header like the stx, is that so? to me, one of the main virtues of the stx is that it can be powered by an external, quiet, good sounding linear supply-- and the card's peformance justifies doing so.

 not that the st would make me switch, but theat external psu connector would be a great selling point. (that and 32bit asio support!)


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## ROBSCIX

Yes, the card offers the same power distribution of the STX.


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## ROBSCIX

I am going to be doing some opamps tests with this new card. I will post the results when done.


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## rOAdeh

Any more news on a release date for this? You mention that Asus has a quick release cycle but I'm unsure if that implies that we'll be waiting a matter of weeks for this card or Christmas! I'm hoping that since its mainly an adaptation of the STX that it'll be the former but am concerned that I've heard nothing of the ST apart from on this forum!


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## ROBSCIX

I will see what informaiton I can find out for you.

 I did a sneak peak for the card, that is where this thread comes from.

 I don't think anybody can really release any other info as I have not heard of anybody else with this card. Not until the production version comes out that is.

 I still have the ST 7.1 and I am enjoying it and experimenting with it.


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## shuttleboi

The article was not very good. It does not even mention what are the ports on the daughtercard. Does it support full 7.1 audio?


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## C0B

As according to a techgage review of the STX, it says that:

 "At the heart of the Xonar Essence STX is the ASUS AV100 audio processor, which is based on the C-Media CMI8788 OxygenHD processor ... The AV100 can process up to 8 channels of audio, and it's used in ASUS' Xonar D1 and DX, but in this application with only two channels in use, it produces even more pristine audio clarity. The AV200 audio processor used on the Xonar D2, D2X, and HDAV1.3 cards, which is a higher-binned version of the CMI8788 processor, is able to maintain the same audio quality with all eight channels passing a signal at the same time, but the AV100 is able to achieve the necessary levels of performance in a two-channel application."

 Why would they not use the AV200 in the 7.1 edition of the STX, (being the ST)? I just figure that the AV200 would be more advanced than the AV100? But specs don't always tell the story I guess...

 Surely they'll just call this 'new' card the Essence ST Deluxe (as it has the H6 DAC expansion card)?

 I run Ultrasone HFI-580 cans or my Logitech Z5500Ds, so I too have been waiting for a multichannel version of the STX.

 In any case, I'm really interested to see how the Essence ST goes against the Auzen Forte!


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## ROBSCIX

I think the designers would know more about the chip then techgage would.

 The ST is not meant to be the 7.1 version of the STX, the ST is just mean for a different application.

 There is also no fixed date on when the ST will be released or in what configuration.


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## C0B

ok, well it's not the 7.1 _version_ of the STX, but it's basically still the mighty headphone amp soundcard that we witnessed as the STX, but with the capacity to output to 8 channels via analog output - yes?

 also, in relation to the AV100 vs AV200: surely since this card is now a multichannel card, it should utilise the AV200 as in the HDAV and D2X cards, as opposed to the AV100?

 is it *predominately* the fact that the STX has a dedicated headphone amp that makes it that much better than other soundcards we've seen to date?

 for all intents and purposes the ST really does look to lend itself as being called an 'Essence ST Deluxe' - but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 the whole point of the new card is such that end-users can hook up their multichannel speakers - to what is an awesome headphone soundcard (the STX) that now caters for multichannel setups as well (in the form of the ST), and to a (much) lesser extent, for those who want a PCI card.

 i wonder whether asus will in fact produce an Essence STX Deluxe in addition to the Essence ST Deluxe (forgive my preliminary naming of the cards - but I think you get my drift), that is to say, will Asus produce a PCIe version of this card we have witnessed in the sneak-peak?

 i, for one, seem to think it might be worth the wait over getting a D2X for those multichannel setups, or perhaps even an Auzen Forte for the same reason - but as I said - we'll have to wait and see.

 PS. whilst understanding that you can't do a 'test' against the Auzen Forte or other such cards, Robscix, perhaps you can tell us in your opinion how it _might_ compare to the likes of said cards?


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## ROBSCIX

Yes, the ST "Deluxe" version offers 7.1 analog and the same headphone amplifier chip as the STX.

 I think the STX is so popular because of the sound quality of the card. The headphone amplifier is nice for those that need it but only a feature of the card.

 Yes, I think when the card is released it will follow a similar naming convention to other ASUS Xonar soundcards. 

 The ST offers higher quality analog quality then the D2X.

 The ST is a formidable analog soundcard and will become one of the top soundcards when released.


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## soulrider4ever

I'm really looking forward to this card. What DAC's is it going to use on the expansion card??


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## ROBSCIX

The Existing design uses the H6 DAC expansion board Which is outfitted with PCM1796 DAC's they vary from the ones found on the ST main board.


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## ROBSCIX

If you have anymore quesiton about this card let me know. I will answer them if I can.


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## C0B

i don't own a quality amp, so the reason for me to buy a quality soundcard is for the DAC, and then feed the ananlog to my speakers.

 this may sound like a noob question, but in relation to digital out (for those that use a quality amp etc.) does the soundcard actually do any processing on digital (optical/coaxial) out before it passes to the amp?

 if not, is this not dissimilar to using onboard digital out?


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## Fantoon

What kind of external can dac/amp is the st comparable with? I was planning to buy the stx but halted because the lack of PCI-E on my comp


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## ROBSCIX

That is a tricky question. The ST uses many of the same components as the STX and most with the STX say the sound quality is well beyond the price.


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## Telix

This is annoying... makes me wish I had just waited for the ST. More flexible installation options and the 7.1 makes it easily superior. I hope it's at least more expensive to make me not feel that dumb for getting the STX!


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## genclaymore

I just hope the H6 board goes on sell, so I dont feel silly not grabing the Deluxe when I knew I wanted that board. Even if I had to wait a bit more for cash to get it. Tho I wouldnt mind wishing I had the ST instead.


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## ROBSCIX

Currently the card is still on the drawing board. I have a engineering sample. AFAIK, it is the only ST 7.1 outside of ASUS.


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## Fantoon

Will be watching this thread daily. Robscix: your posts are appreciated. Keep up the good work


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## leeperry

I really could use a PCI version of the STX, my PCI-E ports are too close to my VGA cooler


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## ROBSCIX

Sure, many boards have similar configurations putting PCI-E X1 slots up where they can't be used. You can put the STX in a X8 or X16 slot...
 You could also wait and use the ST in a normal PCI slot


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, many boards have similar configurations putting PCI-E X1 slots up where they can't be used. You can put the STX in a X8 or X16 slot...
 You could also wait and use the ST in a normal PCI slot
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

sure, but if it comes w/ the daughter board it's gonna cost $300..


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## ROBSCIX

There has been no MSRP suggested yet. The STX was rather cheap so I am unsure why you think the card will jump from $180 to $300 because of a H6 DAC board and a cable. Wait to see how they decide to market the card and what the MSRP will be...


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## Fantoon

No release date yet? Has been doing some searching, besides from your preview there is not much to hang on to


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## Telstar

The most noticeable feature of this card, even for 2.0 channel use is the new clock circuit.

 Waiting for ETA. This card can compare with pretty expensive DACs...


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## ROBSCIX

The card has the normal XO seen on other cards but also has a timing chip which cleans up and reduces any jitter significantly.


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## csoller

Hi!

 Im using an STX now and I dont really know what jitter means.

 I would like to know if this thing will improve or affect anything when I play music from my HDD or it only matters when I play music from a CD drive?

 So will this change anything if I play music only from my HDD and if yes what will be better?


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## ROBSCIX

Some updates for those interested:

 As to the end price, each area will set their price based on the MSRP. The card will be priced not much higher then the STX.

 The ST is being sent to official reviewers around the world. The cards are currently shipping to Europe and US.

 The first releases will not be avilable with the H6 DAC boards. The H6 boards will be available to upgrade the ST around Q3.


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## Fantoon

I'm sure they won't release it before computex. That's between 2-6 next month...

 As for reviewers...are you one of them?


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## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *csoller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi!

 Im using an STX now and I dont really know what jitter means.

 I would like to know if this thing will improve or affect anything when I play music from my HDD or it only matters when I play music from a CD drive?

 So will this change anything if I play music only from my HDD and if yes what will be better?_

 

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the jitter reduction will only apply to the signal sent out over the optical out.


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## ROBSCIX

I know when Computex is and it has nothign to do with the release as the cards are said to be shipping now to shops in EU and US.

 I don't think this card will be a major demo piece for ASUS at Computex as they already unvieled this card at Cebit earlier this year.

 Yes, I do reviews from time to time.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the jitter reduction will only apply to the signal sent out over the optical out._

 

Not so, the clocking chip improves the clocking signal and reduces jitter across the board.


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## Bojamijams

Ahh I see


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## ROBSCIX

Almost every chip on the board will require a clocking signal to keep audio signals processing like sound samples being converted etc.. if this clocking signal is dirty or has a great deal of jitter it can affect sound quality. 
 As to what degree jitter can affect your audio is a subject of much debate and one I prefer not to join.

 A simple clocking signal is a steady digital pulse at timed intervals. Jitter is a variation in the time these pulses start and stop. -That is the easiest definition I can think of.

 Hope that helps.


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## Bojamijams

Thanks for the indepth reply. The only time I saw jitter being mentioned is in regards to digital signal and who has less of it (coax or toslink) so I figured it only affected the transport section of the card, not its internals.. but since its decoded from a hard drive, it makes sense that timing would be involved internally as well


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## ROBSCIX

Well yes, jitter applies to digital signals but not just digital audio signals such as S/Pdif. All digital signals such as internal timing signals etc..

 Hope that helps.


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## ah-see

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know when Computex is and it has nothign to do with the release as *the cards are said to be shipping now to shops in EU and US*.

 I don't think this card will be a major demo piece for ASUS at Computex as they already unvieled this card at Cebit earlier this year.

 Yes, I do reviews from time to time._

 






 i can't wait to get my hands on one of these, shouldn't be long now


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## roadtonowhere08

I have been reading this thread and the STX thread casually for months, I have an STX, and I am very happy with it. Having said that, I must say that at times ASUS is an absolutely outstanding company with great innovations especially with their new commanding role in sound cards. They have done some really great things to further the emphasis of sound quality. Unfortunately, sometimes I really have no idea what goes through the minds of the engineers and marketing people. Why in the world would they release the ST (supposedly a superior card with the new clocking circuit) on an obviously dying slot technology (PCI) right after releasing the STX (was supposed to be their flagship stereo card) on the future slot technology (PCI Express)? All new cards are trending toward PCI Express, why the step back? That's like Lynx or RME releasing a new flagship card compatible with ISA slots back when PCI was king. In addition to this the ST is expandable to 7.1, whereas the STX is not. ASUS, what in the hell were you thinking?


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## ah-see

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roadtonowhere08* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have been reading this thread and the STX thread casually for months, I have an STX, and I am very happy with it. Having said that, I must say that at times ASUS is an absolutely outstanding company with great innovations especially with their new commanding role in sound cards. They have done some really great things to further the emphasis of sound quality. Unfortunately, sometimes I really have no idea what goes through the minds of the engineers and marketing people. Why in the world would they release the ST (supposedly a superior card with the new clocking circuit) on an obviously dying slot technology (PCI) right after releasing the STX (was supposed to be their flagship stereo card) on the future slot technology (PCI Express)? All new cards are trending toward PCI Express, why the step back? That's like Lynx or RME releasing a new flagship card compatible with ISA slots back when PCI was king. In addition to this the ST is expandable to 7.1, whereas the STX is not. ASUS, what in the hell were you thinking?_

 


 Well, i'm in a situation where i only have 1 spare pci-e slot and i can't put a STX or any other pci-e card because the sound card will cross over my ram slots because sound cards are quite long. The pci slot on my mobo is in a position where length of the sound card does not matter.


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## genclaymore

Road its for people who dont have spare PCI-E slots, like those with video cards that take two slots,SLi or those on matx mobos with a extra pci slot etc.


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## oqvist

PCI is in no way dying it will be here for several years to come to complement PCI Ex 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. There is just not any use for PCI express for soundcards, network cards etc currently

 But for me the primary reason I want PCI is because on most mainboards that allows you to set it separately at the lowest part of the case instead of closer to the video card. Even on modern mainboards you have more liberty with PCI. And it´s an old and proven standard which works


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PCI is in no way dying it will be here for several years to come to complement PCI Ex 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. There is just not any use for PCI express for soundcards, network cards etc currently

 But for me the primary reason I want PCI is because on most mainboards that allows you to set it separately at the lowest part of the case instead of closer to the video card. Even on modern mainboards you have more liberty with PCI. And it´s an old and proven standard which works 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Very true, also many of the newest mobo's are jam packed with so many slots the company doesn't consider real world usage. 
 You get PCI-E X1 slots up near the coolers making them useless. Companies also seem to jam X1 slots between the X16 slots people use for video cards. 
 Modern video cards are so wide they overlap the X1 slots. I have both on my PC but I just wish companies would think a bit more about real world use. What good are lost when they cannot actually be used?


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## ah-see

Wow, seems like its not only me that have their pci-e slots being all cluttered up and rendered useless.


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## roadtonowhere08

I see what you guys are saying, but the change will happen, and to drop a good amount of money on a card that will physically outlive its designated slot is a hard pill to swallow. If this release was a couple of years ago, I would have no objections. 

 My point is that PCI-Express has been around since the 939 pin AMD Athlons; what is the hold-up? I have a PCI-Express wireless network card, soundcard, graphics card, and JBOD controller. That just about covers the gamut of add on cards these days. Unless you have a really expensive legacy device that is necessary for your livelihood, there really is no excuse for the motherboard companies to be dragging their feet. Change happens, and the more unified the slots are on motherboards, the easier (not harder) it is for the consumer.

 I have a feeling that once the DSPs and processors are native to PCI-Express protocol, the change will come quick. Now if every board would have nothing but physical 16x PCI-Express slots (with a good electrical lane assignment), there would be no issue with regards to card placement.


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## jenneth

As others have already said, most motherboard manufacturer places the X1s either on the first slot, or sandwich in between the X16s. I, too, had the same problem when I had my STX. Furthermore, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the PCIe (at its current state) offer any real benefit(s) over the PCI for sound cards.

  Quote:


 I have a feeling that once the DSPs and processors are native to PCI-Express protocol, the change will come quick. 
 

When that happens, I'm sure ASUS will release another PCIe sound card.


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## leeperry

well, some ppl can be maxing out their PCI bus bandwidth w/ a RAID card for instance...so PCI-E has an edge, but it was also a major pain to install the STX in my system. looking forward to the ST release


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## ROBSCIX

Well PCI-E may be the future but there are still growing pains for many.


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## Bojamijams

Also remember, you can install the STX in ANY PCI-E slot.. ANY of them.. pci x4, x8, x16.. you don't HAVE to use the x1 slot if you got other PCI-E slots free


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## roadtonowhere08

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jenneth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Furthermore, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the PCIe (at its current state) offer any real benefit(s) over the PCI for sound cards._

 

It's not that the added bandwidth is much of a benefit for sound cards, but the fact that for once there is a chance to have all expansion cards using the same slot architecture. This is why motherboard manufacturers need to stop messing around and just release beards with nothing but PCI-Express x16 slots. This makes everything easier for everyone since all PCI-Express cards can and will work in a x16 slot.

 With SSD, RAID cards are a joke on PCI. Just one good one will saturate the entire bus in both reads and writes.


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## NGX

What happened to the 500+ pages this thread contained?

 I just reinstalled Windows XP. I can't remember how to by-pass the Windows kernel mixer, but I remember this thread had a link to a guide some place. Anybody able to help me out?


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## Bojamijams

This is the ST thread, not the STX thread. 

 As for the guide, http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ea...5/#post5316393


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## NGX

Ah, I see.

 There was another tutorial that explained how to get direct streaming with both Foobar and Winamp, do you know where to find it? Thank you


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## Bojamijams

I don't know where that particular guide is but I'll give you a short version on how to get KS working with Foobar

 Download the KS plugin @ foobar2000 3rd party components

 Extract into your Foobar\components directory. Start Foobar. Goto File->Preferences. Choose Output on the left. Select "KS: Asus Essence STX Audio". You're done.


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## ForTiNeRo

well I'm also trying to make up my mind here.. this is my question: why does the ST claims to be "_the first PCI audio card in the word to incorporate precision clock tuning to minimize audio jitter_"? aren't ST and STX the same card? speaking about audio specs, of course. and btw, what does that means anyway?

 edit: ... or they literaly mean "the first PCI card" just because the STX is not PCI, but PCI-E? that would be stupid, but it does makes sence though =P


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## ROBSCIX

No, the STX and the ST have a few variations in design. The clocking circuit and the Pin Header are avialable on the ST only.


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## ForTiNeRo

right.. and that clocking circuit makes any significant difference at all? 

 forget the PCI/PCI-E issue and forget the H6 card.. shoud I still wait for the ST release or should I go for the STX.. what are the true differences?


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## ForTiNeRo

anyone?


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## ROBSCIX

I would say wait and see what people have to say about the ST. You can make up your mind based on information and reviews of both products.


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## Ansh

I am so desperate about getting a sound card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I wanted to get a STX , but the improved design of ST makes me hesistate
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Wonder when it will actually comes out
 Can't wait


----------



## ROBSCIX

Should be out soon.


----------



## Apocalypsee

If you can wait this long then this ST is worth the wait


----------



## leeperry

..depending on the price, because audio jitter is not audible : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ji...amples-424172/

 hearing a diff between the ST and STX in a DBT/ABX is prolly next to impossible 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, it'd be great if it were actually available in shops before xmas.

 and despite Asus promises a month ago, there's still no automatic bit-perfect drivers available.


----------



## Apocalypsee

STX is not bit perfect? The jitter test is quite....how do I put it....different from one setup to another, since different setup have differennt jitter to begin with


----------



## leeperry

hah, so you're saying that you can actually hear differences between these samples 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the worst of these samples has 100ns of jitter, more than you will EVER encounter in real world applications.

 STX has a fixed samplerate, so whether you listen to CDDA/DVD/DVD-A...you have to change it manually in the drivers to avoid any SRC, it's so darn annoying! I always forget to put it back to 44.1 after playing a 48KHz movie 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and they even resample KS and ASIO in the same fashion 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 even the X-Fi cards leave ASIO/KS bit-perfect, but not Asus...it's been pointed out by this russian website 13 months ago : Universal Soldier: ASUS Xonar D2 PM Sound Card Review (page 8) - X-bit labs

  Quote:


 The Xonar D2 provides full support for ASIO 2.0 with 16-bit and 24-bit data precision and frequencies of 44.1, 48, 96 and 192kHz. [...] The card doesn’t adjust the frequency automatically. If the frequency differs from the base one, the signal is recalculated using a high-quality software resampling algorithm. For comparison, the Creative X-Fi begins to switch the generator’s frequency in this case, clicking with the relay. 
 

and that was 1 year ago, I'm dubious about this ever changing tbh...


----------



## sonci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_even the X-Fi cards leave ASIO/KS bit-perfect, but not Asus._

 

I didnt thought to be a Creative fanboy, but I think they`re still the one in the PC audio thing,..
 Where are you Obbo...


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sonci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't think to be a Creative fanboy, but I think they`re still the one in the PC audio thing_

 

oh look, it's Mr Sarcasm! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well I could have added M-Audio/Auzentech/Lynx/RME/Edirol/Emu.....even Creative for Christ Sake's...but not Asus 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 resampling ASIO/KS is a big no-no...the card should set its master samplerate to match the source file and disable ANY post-processing/resampling...again, even Creative does it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I'm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway....Asus promised to update their drivers w/ automatic samplerate, we'll see if their statement will be followed by actions! before xmas if any possible


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Apocalypsee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_STX is not bit perfect? The jitter test is quite....how do I put it....different from one setup to another, since different setup have differennt jitter to begin with_

 

Currently, the Xonar cards provide bit perfect but you have to change sample rate maually.

 As for the jitter tests, Your exactly right. The tests are useless because if you play the sample using the same card you get the same amount of jitter added from the card...DAC...whatever added to the tests samples.


----------



## leeperry

for those wondering, here's the added jitter in these samples :

  Quote:


 Track 1 - 30ns 
 Track 2 - 0ns 
 Track 3 - 10ns 
 Track 4 - 100ns 
 Track 5 - 10ns 
 

so compare #2 and #4, are they night and day to you? you will NEVER get 100ns of jitter IRL....of course your own gear will add jitter on top of it, but if you can't identify #2 against #4 in DBT...let's just say that you shouldn't worry so much about teh evil jitter from outer space.

 just as a reminder : "A nanosecond (ns or nsec) is one billionth (10-9) of a second"....when your brain will be able to hear a billionth of a second jitter, you most likely will be half human/half machine


----------



## Ansh

If I'm not going to use the multi channel card anyway, should I just go for a STX
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




?


----------



## ForTiNeRo

I guess we won't be sure about that until they release the ST, although I might go for a STX, can't wait that much. would it be THAT much? because "before xmas" is way too much for me


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ForTiNeRo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess we won't be sure about that until they release the ST, although I might go for a STX, can't wait that much. would it be THAT much? because "before xmas" is way too much for me _

 

1)whenever I'll have the ST, I will run DBT/ABX w/ several other ppl and synchronized foobar's....some other ppl in this thread do have the ST and STX but refuse to do so, for political reasons I'd guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 2)the best indication you will ever get is "soon"


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ForTiNeRo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess we won't be sure about that until they release the ST, although I might go for a STX, can't wait that much. would it be THAT much? because "before xmas" is way too much for me _

 

They have announced the card and they are shipping to the reviewers first. They ship to store shortly after that point.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ansh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I'm not going to use the multi channel card anyway, should I just go for a STX
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




?_

 

If you think the ST might have something to offer you, wait for the reviews. This will put you in a better position to make a informed decision on which is the best match for you.


----------



## wein07

Not much difference to head Fi listeners this card?


----------



## Ansh

The only thing I am sure about now is that ST is about 1500TWD more than STX, that's about 40USD more
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Hope it really gives us something special...


----------



## leeperry

arghhhhhhhhh, how do you know it's US $40 more expensive?

 I think I'll pass if that's the case, I haven't updated my brain w/ cyborg parts yet...so the 1ppm clock would -most likely- make no audible difference to my only human auditory cortex


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ansh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only thing I am sure about now is that ST is about 1500TWD more than STX, that's about 40USD more
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Hope it really gives us something special...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

New cards are priced by region using the MSRP. Usually all you can get is a guess until the card actually hit the shelves in the various area.

 The information I have is that cards are price in a similar fashion, I guess we will wait and see.


----------



## ForTiNeRo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 2)the best indication you will ever get is "soon" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

yes, I know, but it really sucks.. we don't know if it would be 2 weeks soon or 2 months soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .. anyway.. I have to import it from US to Argentina so I'll have to wait at least 2 months or so


----------



## leeperry

well, for what it's worth they've added it to the Asus forum....but still not a word on their Xonar website.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Here is a picture for those interested:


----------



## Ansh

Well, it's the price of Taiwan actually
 The STX is sold at 6400 there while ST is sold at 7900
 That's about 40 USD by simple calculation...


----------



## daidalas

i wanna buy itttttttt


----------



## Technokat

seems like they are really dragging their feet releasing this card. I dont know what is taking so long.


----------



## leeperry

apparently it's available in Austria: ASUS Xonar Essence ST, PCI (90-YAA0E0-0UAN00Z) Preisvergleich bei EU

 I will prolly order it today


----------



## Ansh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_apparently it's available in Austria: ASUS Xonar Essence ST, PCI (90-YAA0E0-0UAN00Z) Preisvergleich bei EU

 I will prolly order it today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Wow
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Hope it comes to Hong Kong soon


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_apparently it's available in Austria: ASUS Xonar Essence ST, PCI (90-YAA0E0-0UAN00Z) Preisvergleich bei EU

 I will prolly order it today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I looked at that site but had to translate it, are you sure this is not just a preorder?
 This happens sometimes when a distributor has a ETA but no actual cards.


----------



## leeperry

they seem to be taking pre-orders, but they won't be available before another 10 days.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, I figured that they don't actually have the stock. That makes more sense. The info I have stated the cards would ship to USA and Europe first. If they are saying 10days, then you will probably be able to buy the ST in USA around the same time. 
 Such ETA are usally only guidelines as this final ETA could change. ASUS has been very quick with getting their new products to market.


----------



## leeperry

...and release half-arsed drivers.

 I had to finish that sentence for you, now didn't I


----------



## ROBSCIX

My sentence was finished.


----------



## leeperry

you sound so sold out to Asus sometimes, that you should have a MOT badge IMO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 where are the "automatic samplerate" drivers we were promised? why don't they update all their D2/STX/etc drivers w/ the same build as the ST drivers? do end users have to modify the .inf files by themselves in order to run the latest C-Media drivers?

 ah well, Asus is new in the audio business, hopefully they will take constructive critics in account...in order to have a software part on par w/ the excellent hardware engineering.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Why don't you give the trolling a rest for awhile.


----------



## Blak

The ST sounds like an interesting audiocard. 

 How about bass management and setting speakerdistance and soundlevel when using the multichannel extension board. Are these options present?


----------



## genclaymore

You ever thought they may have other things that bogged up there plan to release auto sample drivers. Personlly theres no problems with manaully doing, as you can still do it your self. Either deal with manaully do it or convert your music in a 44100khz or whatever khz and set it so it doesnt need to be set manually every time. 

 As for Drivers reasons why drivers for the newer cards exist incase something happen to the driver media that comes with the cards. So users can run to incase that happen.Unless you rather if those users deal with not being able to use there cards incase the install media happens to be bad.

 They will get around to releasing said drivers for the other cards, users that cant wait can mod the ini. Only reason I did it to see what was improved in the drivers,Otherwise I wouldnt had bothered. There not creative heck there not Razer who havent update there razer barracuda drivers since forever. Let them do there thing and the drivers come out when there ready, It takes time you just have to stop worrying and rushing them.

 As Other things has higher priority then certain things to be fixed or improved or added.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Blak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The ST sounds like an interesting audiocard. 

 How about bass management and setting speakerdistance and soundlevel when using the multichannel extension board. Are these options present?_

 

You have driver settings that are available on other multi channel Xonar cards. 
 Such as: FlexBass which is bass redirection and individual level settings for each channel. Unfortunately there is no delay settings as of yet. 
 Most players allow you to set surround delays but it would still be nice to have the setting within the drivers. 

 To note, this card will only be released in the 2.0 version initially, with the H6 DAC upgrade board to be offered at a later date for those who want the surround sound option.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *genclaymore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Personlly theres no problems with manaully doing, as you can still do it your self. Either deal with manaully do it or convert your music in a 44100khz or whatever khz and set it so it doesnt need to be set manually every time._

 

well the current ST drivers work on the WHOLE Xonar line, D2, D2X, STX, whatever....why no unified drivers? why do they force us to modify the .inf file? could you imagine nvidia or ATi doing that? even Creative has unified drivers I think.

 any basic soundcard will do automatic hardware samplerate, even the X-Fi, and even Realtek! doing it manually is not acceptable...again. Otherwise, they should also force us to choose the bit-depth manually...now that'd be most convenient 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and don't tell me about resampling, please..

 and why not forcing 128X oversampling? it's a free sound upgrade, win-win for both the end-users and Asus 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 hopefully, the drivers will be polished in the near future....then the hardware part will get what it deserves 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but xbitlabs.com talked about this issue 13 months ago on the D2, and this has never been adressed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS: *I can't play 192KHz in KS on XP SP3 w/ the STX, I get massive background noise...it's a 96KHz max soundcard at this point(not that I care about 192Khz, but still).


----------



## Blak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unfortunately there is no delay settings as of yet. 
 Most players allow you to set surround delays but it would still be nice to have the setting within the drivers._

 

I playback lossless Blu-ray tracks converted to flac using the audiofilter Madflac. Unfortunately Madflac doesn't allow to set delays. But Madflac combined with ffdshow as post filter will probably work.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Blak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I playback lossless Blu-ray tracks converted to flac using the audiofilter Madflac. Unfortunately Madflac doesn't allow to set delays. But Madflac combined with ffdshow as post filter will probably work._

 

This setting has been suggested quite a few times for upcoming drivers set especially by the HDA 1.3 Deluxe guys.
 There are a few works around until the setting gets added. ffdshow should work, IIRC. I haven't used that filter in quite awhile.


----------



## twhtpclover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well the current ST drivers work on the WHOLE Xonar line, D2, D2X, STX, whatever....why no unified drivers? why do they force us to modify the .inf file? could you imagine nvidia or ATi doing that? even Creative has unified drivers I think._

 


 Why do you want unified driver? do you own all of the cards from Asus? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 NV and ATI can do that because the cores are almost all the same, but for sound cards, there are different DAC and ADC, and also royalty for Dolby and DTS are different.

 Why do you expect the driver optimized for 1792 also works flawlessly for 1796?

 It may work by changing the .inf, but it may damage the SQ IMO..


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *twhtpclover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why do you expect the driver optimized for 1792 also works flawlessly for 1796?

 It may work by changing the .inf, but it may damage the SQ IMO.._

 

a wild guess would be that C-Media constantly updates its CMI8788 drivers, gets them WHQL certified...and gives them to its OEM customers(Asus/Auzentech/Razer/HT Omega/etc), who then release them within their own package.

 the Windows WDM device drivers are not from Asus(they only did the ugly sluggish GUI), and the ST drivers work just fine on the STX and the D2X, and all the other Xonar cards....and I'd dare to say that the SQ has improved, if not identical.

 it's like Sapphire(and the likes) repackaging the generic ATi drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Maybe I should whine to C-Media to get "automatic samplerate" after all, as this needs to be implemented in the WDM system drivers in the first place.

*PS:* damn I'm listening to the 32bit remastered BEST OF from Barry White, the STX really gives a mind blowing SQ(w/ 3x49720HA and the latest ST drivers)


----------



## ROBSCIX

This mis matching is drives is nothing new. When the original 8788 cards were out many would use drivers from one model to get the features on another.
 Every 8788 card used the same base drivers, Aside from Razor who had a custom UI made...

 If you think Barry white sounds good on the STX with ST drivers... I bet your wondering how good it sounds on a ST with ST drivers?


----------



## fine art acoustic

Sounds like the ST is your favorit Robscix


----------



## leeperry

well I'm still interested in the Claro Halo tbh...maybe it's got bit-matched drivers for a change? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but the ST is definitely on top of my buying list 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, I've read *Uncle_Erik* bashing the STX and saying that "_the STX can only output 140 mW at max when a real amp can output 1W_" and this guy saying that it can only output 2Vrms max(a major issue for high impedance phones) : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5716008-post75.html

 so I've asked the xbitlabs guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 here's their answer : X-bit labs - Discussion on article Two in One: Asus Xonar Essence STX Sound Card Review

  Quote:


 The built-in amplifier provides up to 20 volts voltage swing and more than 2x500 mW output power. It also have three gain settings for high, medium and low-sensitive headphones. The output impedance does not depend on chosen gain. 
 

so maybe ppl should actually stop bashing the damn thing, and try/measure it


----------



## fine art acoustic

By the way i will order one becouse thats what i'am waiting for 7.1 chanel plus headphone amp. i still have 1 daughter board from my Xonar deluxe card. I hope it will work together since Asus delays the daughter board.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds like the ST is your favorit Robscix_

 

Well, I released the Sneak Peak on the ST awhile back and have been testing it ever since. I test many cards though...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well I'm still interested in the Claro Halo tbh...maybe it's got bit-matched drivers for a change? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but the ST is definitely on top of my buying list 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, I've read *Uncle_Erik* bashing the STX and saying that "the STX can only output 140 mW at max when a real amp can output 1W" and this guy saying that it can only output 2Vrms max(a major issue for high impedance phones) : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5716008-post75.html

 so I've asked the xbitlabs guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 here's their answer : X-bit labs - Discussion on article Two in One: Asus Xonar Essence STX Sound Card Review

 so maybe ppl should actually stop bashing the damn thing, and try/measure it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

There is a guy that hangs at Guru3D and a few others fourms that has seriously modded the Halo... Black gate caps all around and OPA637's for every channel. -Nice mods.
 I wouldn't worry too much about any bashers especially when it is just some guy who has never heard the product he is bashing or has other motives for bashing any internal cards.

 You asked the Xbitlabs guys and they gave you the wrong answer. What they were trying to give you is the maximum ratings for the headphone amp chip. 
 Which is 30 Volts for single supply not 20V and both values have no bearing on the STX as it swings from +/- 12V for the amplifier circuits. 
 To note, as for the comment about a "real amp" putting out 1 watt. At full power and max values this amplifier chip can put out 1.5 Watts. That would not happen with this circuit though...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By the way i will order one becouse thats what i'am waiting for 7.1 chanel plus headphone amp. i still have 1 daughter board from my Xonar deluxe card. I hope it will work together since Asus delays the daughter board._

 

Yes, if you have the H6 DAC board off off the HDAV 1.3 then you can connect it right up to the ST and have the ST Deluxe.


----------



## Technokat

do we have any word of how much more/less the st is going to be yet? and how much its going to be to get the daughter board since they said it needs to be purchased seperately


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds like the ST is your favorit Robscix_

 

identifying the ST and STX using the same drivers revision in a DBT using headphones would -theoritically- be next to impossible.

 in a perfectly controlled room w/ killer speakers, it should be audible w/ a bit of concentration....again noone can hear 100ns jitter, let alone the much lower levels the STX is outputting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Technokat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_do we have any word of how much more/less the st is going to be yet?_

 

it's slightly more expensive, check the link I posted


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I released the Sneak Peak on the ST awhile back and have been testing it ever since. I test many cards though..._

 

Yes i know and i won't say anything wrong but it sounds like you are impressed over the ST. I know as well your position on testing many sound cards. I thing you did a good job on that.
 Do you have any further impression on Burson OP?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes i know and i won't say anything wrong but it sounds like you are impressed over the ST. I know as well your position on testing many sound cards. I thing you did a good job on that.
 Do you have any further impression on Burson OP?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sure, I am impressed with the sound of the ST. 

 I have not tested the Burson unit. I have tested all the Audio-GD versions and the Burson unit is said to be a Audio-GD Earth.
 These units offer some great sound and can make other chip opamps sound very cold and sterile in comparison.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, I am impressed with the sound of the ST. 

 I have not tested the Burson unit. I have tested all the Audio-GD versions and the Burson unit is said to be a Audio-GD Earth.
 These units offer some great sound and can make other chip opamps sound very cold and sterile in comparison._

 

Thank's for your impression. I still think about the Burson and beneficial of his smaler size to upgrade it with my LT1364 for the ST.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The bursons aren't really smaller, Well a bit, just the PCB is turned out instead of in.
 The burson is also more money. You should like the discrete opamps though as they sound very good.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, I am impressed with the sound of the ST. 

 I have not tested the Burson unit. I have tested all the Audio-GD versions and the Burson unit is said to be a Audio-GD Earth.
 These units offer some great sound and can make other chip opamps sound very cold and sterile in comparison._

 

What is your meaning about the different Audio-GD units Earth, moon, sun, Sun2. What will be the best chois of them?


----------



## ForTiNeRo

hey Robscix and what about the pci-e vs pci issue you guys were arguing some pages back?


----------



## fine art acoustic

After some readings about Audio-gd Discrete OPA i believe the best choise is the Moon in the Buffer section with my both LM4562 in the i/v spot.


----------



## Blak

Whats the distance between the analogue outs of the extension board and the ST? Is it enough to connect some serious plugs?


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Blak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whats the distance between the analogue outs of the extension board and the ST? Is it enough to connect some serious plugs?_

 

Yes. I have Blue-Jean LC-1 RCA cables plugged into the line-outs and they are pretty thick/bulky cables.


----------



## Blak

Thanks Shahrose.


----------



## leeperry

BTW, it's been added on the official site : ASUSTeK Computer Inc.

 but it says "_Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage: 2 Vrms_" so I guess it's true...and 600Ω headphones usually require something like 3 Vrms if I got it right..


----------



## rickdanger

I have a pair of Sennheiser HD555 headphones and have been waiting for this card. Now the specs are out, does this card seem like a good match for the Sennheiser HD555s?

 I have no PCI-e slots so PCI is my only option. Also just found out about the HT Claro Halo which is another PCI card with an onboard headphone amp.


----------



## macrog

I am pretty hopeless at diy but changing thae standard opamps in the stx to the 3xLME49720NAs was very simple and an amazingly effective upgrade. 

 I have some LME49720HAs arriving next week to compare.

 Thanks for all the useful advice.

 Regards

 Andrew


----------



## macrog

Sorry for posting in the wrong forum. I meant to post in STX forum. I am very much looking forward to an ST when released in New Zealand.

 Regards

 Andrew


----------



## genclaymore

I enjoying this 2x LME49720NA I/v OPA627AU buffer that rob suggest to me to try. I use this combo for a long time.

 Speaking of RCA cables I need to get some that isnt too thick thats flexable and then longer. As I got some from monoprice but in up getting them a little too short. Since they come out my amp RCA plugs sometimes because of being too short.


----------



## rickdanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry for posting in the wrong forum. I meant to post in STX forum. I am very much looking forward to an ST when released in New Zealand._

 

I was told by a retailer they are expecting to have it in stock in about a month here. No indication if the price is going to be around or higher than the STX price.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickdanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a pair of Sennheiser HD555 headphones and have been waiting for this card. Now the specs are out, does this card seem like a good match for the Sennheiser HD555s?

 I have no PCI-e slots so PCI is my only option. Also just found out about the HT Claro Halo which is another PCI card with an onboard headphone amp._

 


 I have the HD-595's among other headphones and the card is a good match with them. 
 Actually using the HD555's you can also use the line outs which offer higher quality output then the Headhone out. Either are great sounding outputs.

 IIRC, the HD555 do not require the extra amplification such as the HD650 or others do..


----------



## fine art acoustic

I have ordered my ST in Germany my retailer told me he can deliever it on the 29th this Month


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have ordered my ST in Germany my retailer told me he can deliever it on the 29th this Month_

 

Which retailer, Alternate?


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Telstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which retailer, Alternate?_

 

No it's BW-Tech GmbH


----------



## rickdanger

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have ordered my ST in Germany my retailer told me he can deliever it on the 29th this Month_

 

What was the price compared to the STX?


----------



## lxxl

Hi guys,

 I have been reading here and tried with the Xonar Essence STX. Unfortunately it would be a super tight fit for me to stick a PCI-E into my computer. As I was super disappointed, I spotted the ST version.

 As soon as it comes out in Canada I'll be getting one, already have some LME49720NA op-amps laying around waiting for the ST


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickdanger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What was the price compared to the STX?_

 

it's quitt a little bit cheaper 150,50EURO


----------



## fine art acoustic

Today the price droped at 149,70EUR


----------



## fine art acoustic

Today i orderd 2 x Sun2, 2 x Moon, 2 x Earth


----------



## ForTiNeRo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's quitt a little bit cheaper 150,50EURO_

 

cheaper than de STX? I thought it was going to bue the other way around :/ .. I'm not complaining though


----------



## Bojamijams

I don't know if it'd be quite a bit cheaper. 150 Euro is 237 CAD and the essence STX is 229 right now. So it looks to be about the same.


----------



## fine art acoustic

I talke about the time the STX coming frech on the Market. At this time the price for the STX was around 157,00EUR as i can remember.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, the cards will end up being similar in price. This was the information I received and posted from the start, for those interested.


----------



## fine art acoustic

By The way in Austria the price is far cheaper 145,44 EUR


----------



## ROBSCIX

Very interesting. Some people figured they would be more expensive because of the variations on the design such as the extra clocking chip and the Pin Header.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By The way in Austria the price is far cheaper 145,44 EUR_

 

ASUS Xonar Essence ST, PCI (90-YAA0E0-0UAN00Z) Preisvergleich bei EU

ASUS Xonar Essence STX, PCIe x1 Preisvergleich bei EU

 it's 5 EUR more expensive than the STX, and some sites say they won't ship before the end of July


----------



## fine art acoustic

The official delievering date right now is the 26. of June from the distributers to the resellers as far as i know.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Sorry i mean in Germany and Austria


----------



## leeperry

the cheapest site says they ship within 48H : mylemon.at .:. Entertainment .:. Sound .:. Soundkarten .:. ASUS Xonar Essence ST PCIe Card

 160 EUR shipped to anywhere in europe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've just sent them an email asking for the actual availability.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Does anybody here something special about the clock Chip? (Name, specification's etc.)


----------



## fine art acoustic

Guys just in the moment i recieved my Essence ST incredibly fast


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anybody here something special about the clock Chip? (Name, specification's etc.)_

 

Yes, the ST is using the Cirrus Logic CS2000 Clock chip. Here is a link to some info: CS2000


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys just in the moment i recieved my Essence ST incredibly fast
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

Give us your impressions when your done initial testing.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys just in the moment i recieved my Essence ST incredibly fast
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

where from?! photos? how good? tell us


----------



## fine art acoustic

Hi Rob,
 Sadly i have to say that the discrete are still coming to the end of next week
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But i just installed the card as soon i have the first impressions i will write it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Rob,
 Sadly i have to say that the discrete are still coming to the end of next week
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But i just installed the card as soon i have the first impressions i will write it._

 

You can test the card stock until then and enjoy.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Hy all,
 first impression on the ST.
 It's just short i dont have so much time.
 At first i played with foobar KS the song People Time from Stan Gatz-Cafe Montmartre.
 Prinzipal i have the first impression that the Sound Stage is with more sensitiv defined. For example at 5:30 there is a crown closing from a water bottle falling (or somthing simular) it fall on the button went up a second time befor it rolled of. With the ST its more defined and with some kind of more air around. You can notice it much better. The hole soundstage is better defined. Some kind of more Prensents. That's it for short.
 Still it's beautiful i'am impressed for the first moment


----------



## leeperry

on headphones or speakers?

 again, where did you buy it please? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've called a few austrian shops, they said they'd have it early next week.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_on headphones or speakers?

 again, where did you buy it please? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've called a few austrian shops, they said they'd have it early next week._

 

I buy it in Germany there are 9 pices left
BW-Tech Shop

 Sorry i missed it the first impressions i here with my lovly Mainspeakers.


----------



## leeperry

ok, thanks! coz jitter improvements should be audible on speakers, but not really on headphones?!

 PS: ah, they only ship to DE/AT and a few other countries..


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok, thanks! coz jitter improvements should be audible on speakers, but not really on headphones?!_

 

i realy don't know how jitter sound but one of my theory is that less jitter means better difined perhaps better timing and better soundstage


----------



## leeperry

...on speakers, yes! on headphones, it shouldn't really be audible as the stereo image is not that wide to begin w/


----------



## fine art acoustic

possible but much later on i will test it on my Headphone perhaps than i can tell


----------



## leeperry

it's too bad you can't have both the STX and ST in the same system simultaneously...this would allow DBT


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_possible but much later on i will test it on my Headphone perhaps than i can tell_

 

Less periodic jitter on the master clock means when your audio is converted, it is at the proper times. When you have a jittery master clock the timing pulses start either too early, too late or both causing your DAC and ADC to convert at the wrong times. This adds distortion and artifacting...


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the ST is using the Cirrus Logic CS2000 Clock chip. Here is a link to some info: CS2000_

 

Thanks Rob you are the best.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Here is a other link for more information about the CS2000
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat...00-OTP_PP1.pdf


----------



## leeperry

ok I've just ordered it, now the shipping wait starts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Asus talk about 1ppm, but this datasheet talks about 0.5ppm....but there's many different modes apparently.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is a other link for more information about the CS2000
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat...00-OTP_PP1.pdf_

 

There is a great deal of information on the Cirrus Logic site. I went through and read all of this information, well quite awhile ago now. The CS2000 clock chips are also avialable in many of the newer high definition receivers.

 Here is some other info, if you haven't found it:
CS2000 Press Release
CS Family Page


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok I've just ordered it, now the shipping wait starts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Asus talk about 1ppm, but this datasheet talks about 0.5ppm....but there's many different modes apparently._

 

Where did you orderd it?


----------



## leeperry

from your link


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_from your link 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Are you also from Germany?


----------



## leeperry

not exactly, but I've been persuasive enough apparently


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_not exactly, but I've been persuasive enough apparently 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have i little problem with the Headphone/Microphone Jack in both spots the springs are not strong anough to hold the plug strong enough. Can you check it please on your unit in the time you recieved it


----------



## leeperry

hah! you're saying that your headphones don't remain plugged within the soundcard


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hah! you're saying that your headphones don't remain plugged within the soundcard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Bonjour yes its not a strong hold


----------



## fine art acoustic

Headphone is still working but the plug is not fixed in strong anough


----------



## leeperry

as if you don't hold it, it falls off 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 should I cancel my order? maybe this shop got a bad batch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 can you somehow hear the jitter improvement over headphones?


----------



## fine art acoustic

No it just fit in and it works but in my opnion not strong anough. I called the shop he will improofed it and he will called me back. If there is a probleme than it will attached the hole production i think this becouse it's on both 6-1/4 jacks. Sound on Headphone is aswell improofed


----------



## leeperry

oh ok, well it's at the back of the system and I don't play around w/ it whatsoever once it's plugged in(I only have my DT770)...if I have to use duct tape, I'll do it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ok, sounds good to me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 let us know what the shop says please.


----------



## leeperry

BTW, I've been confirmed that bit-perfect "automatic samplerate" drivers are still on track, and I'm trying to push for 128X oversampling(the DAC supports it for <192KHz audio, and default is 64X) : Upsampling vs. Oversampling for Digital Audio &mdash; Reviews and News from Audioholics

 when will it EVER stop


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have i little problem with the Headphone/Microphone Jack in both spots the springs are not strong anough to hold the plug strong enough. Can you check it please on your unit in the time you recieved it_

 

Mine are both tight.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine are both tight._

 

You are lucky


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are lucky
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You mean they are loose? -still tight enought to hold the phone jacks in though right?
 Mine aren't overly tight like I don't have to force them in or out but there is never any issue with them not holding or loosing the signal.
 To note, I only use the phone jacks once in awhile, I usually use the line outs...


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You mean they are loose? -still tight enought to hold the phone jacks in though right?
 Mine aren't overly tight like I don't have to force them in or out but there is never any issue with them not holding or loosing the signal.
 To note, I only use the phone jacks once in awhile, I usually use the line outs..._

 

No not loose they snap not strong anough in. The Signal is stil there without loosing the Signal. But if you draw a litle bit on the cable for example they went out.
 My distributor called Asus they testid it on 2 other ST'S there is no probleme. My Distributor will send me a new one after this i can send the old back. That's a realy good service and untypical for Germany.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My distributor called Asus they testid it on 2 other ST'S there is no probleme. My Distributor will send me a new one after this i can send the old back. That's a realy good service and untypical for Germany.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

did you talk to Thomas? he's indeed very friendly!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No not loose they snap not strong anough in. The Signal is stil there without loosing the Signal. But if you draw a litle bit on the cable for example they went out.
 My distributor called Asus they testid it on 2 other ST'S there is no probleme. My Distributor will send me a new one after this i can send the old back. That's a realy good service and untypical for Germany.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Just get a new card and your good to go. Mine are as tight as they should be.


----------



## Famous627

I have the same problem with my STX. The provided 1/4" adapter will snap in but if it gets pulled a little it will get pushed out as if the phone jack is spring loaded. That said, the plug on my 595s don't do this so it might be worth checking other plugs to see if it still happens.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Famous627* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the same problem with my STX. The provided 1/4" adapter will snap in but if it gets pulled a little it will get pushed out as if the phone jack is spring loaded. That said, the plug on my 595s don't do this so it might be worth checking other plugs to see if it still happens._

 

I have a pile of 3.5 to phone adapters and many others for the Phone jack and I find some don't fit as good as others seem to.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Yes there are stil differences but my Jack from the Headphone snaped in, in my STX as it shoot be. So the plug of my headphone is still okay.
 But anyway i will get a new one and that is fine.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_did you talk to Thomas? he's indeed very friendly!_

 

Yes you are right. But not only friendly i did call him in the morning and he said he will call me back on the afternoon with respone and he still did it.
 That 's double plus and a realy good service


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes there are stil differences but my Jack from the Headphone snaped in, in my STX as it shoot be. So the plug of my headphone is still okay._

 

I got a bunch of Neutrik/Furutech 1/4" plugs around, I'll report on how it goes.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok I've just ordered it, now the shipping wait starts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Asus talk about 1ppm, but this datasheet talks about 0.5ppm....but there's many different modes apparently._

 

The ppm doesnt mean ****.
 I'm checking the datasheet trying to find a real jitter measure (that u can get from the phase noise profile). And then, also the QUALITY of such noise matters.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, I've been confirmed that bit-perfect "automatic samplerate" drivers are still on track_

 

Good!

  Quote:


 and I'm trying to push for 128X oversampling(the DAC supports it for <192KHz audio, and default is 64X) 
 

Not so good... 
 The less sigma-delta oversampling the better.
 Try to do A/B comparisons.

 BTW, it seems that 3-4 people here got the card already. Any comparison with other models (esp from asus such as the D2 or the STX).


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Telstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not so good... 
 The less sigma-delta oversampling the better.
 Try to do A/B comparisons._

 

oh ok! well many external DAC are called "NOS", but when you read the DAC datasheet, it's usually 32 or 64X oversampling.

 upsampling is no good, it only increases THD+N(easy to measure w/ SineGen+WaveSpectra).

 but even the manufacturer of the DAC that is used on the ST sort of recommends to use 128X for 44.1 and 64X for 96KHz....default is 64X for all rates.

 and whatever the several audio engineers I've talked to, or this url I posted above seems to be saying that the more you oversample the better the filtering and the less aliasing you get in the end?

 ideally if Asus could let us choose it in the drivers, that'd be awesomeness. I'll discuss it w/ my contact there


----------



## Telstar

If they are really NOS there is no oversampling, nor upsampling.

 AFAIK oversampling is required by delta-sigma converters, otherwise they CANT work.
 Now, I'm NOT a fan of such converters, so I never got deeper into the subject.
 I think that you are right on the more oversampling the better in this case. So, yes, you and your contact at Asus are right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What it matters the most is thatthe burr brown pcm1792 (=1794 hw version) is one of the best delta-sigma chips made and the main reason why I plan to get the Essence ST, at least for my office pc (where i listen to music through my Senns 80% of the time).

 The only thing that the Essence really needs is automatically adjusted sample rate.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Telstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oversampling is required by delta-sigma converters, otherwise they CANT work.
 [..]
 The only thing that the Essence really needs is automatically adjusted sample rate._

 

1) indeed, "NOS" is major bs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 manufacturers seem to mix upsampling and oversampling(or maybe they just try to confuse customers), the former must be avoided at any cost so you don't increase harmonic distortion(it doesn't improve sound whatsoever anyway, except if your DAC offers poor filtering at certain rates), but the latter is mandatory....indeed a DAC cannot work w/o oversampling, d'oh! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2) well, even the Xonar Product Manager is waiting for them....so soon or later they'll show up, I hope


----------



## ROBSCIX

@fine art acoustic, did you get your new OPA's yet?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Here is something to you guys to check out:






 That is a shot of the Xonar ST 7.1 Deluxe with the H6 DAC expansion board.
 Same card I used in the Sneak Peak... To note about time for a new Sneak Peak...


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@fine art acoustic, did you get your new OPA's yet?_

 

No i'am so sorry. They write me a mail that they send it out on Monday next week.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So with luck i will recieved the discrete OPA's on Friday next week.


----------



## fine art acoustic

In the moment i enjoy my new ST whenever i can. I hope tommorow i get my Boat driver license. After this i will still have more time to improve the ST


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the moment i enjoy my new ST whenever i can. I hope tommorow i get my Boat driver license. After this i will still have more time to improve the ST_

 

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let us know how it goes._

 

Right now i have my both Boat driver license for the ocean and for the river.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 next week i will have more time for my ST to improof


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) indeed, "NOS" is major bs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No, its not, but it wont work in a sigma-delta converter. It requires a multibit chip and LOTS of care in the design of all circuits.
 Something that you will never see in the pc audio market.

 The Essence ST is IMO as good as we'll ever gonna get inside a computer.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Telstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, its not, but it wont work in a sigma-delta converter._

 

ok, which ones then? each time I've found "NOS" DAC's being advertized, I checked the datasheet of the DAC IC and it was using mandatory 32 or 64X OS


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Right now i have my both Boat driver license for the ocean and for the river.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 next week i will have more time for my ST to improof
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Do you have any other ideas besides the discrete opamps?


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you have any other ideas besides the discrete opamps?_

 

Not yet. Perhaps the lt1364 in the Buffer but first i want to gamble with the discrete.
 By the way yesterday i was realy shocked with a plugin in Foobar where you can deside the upsamplingrate from 44100 to 96000. I use 96000 but i wanted to know how sound the 44100 and the result was a total other interpretation but i had not the time to make any decision if i'am happy with this or not but this was a very very big difference.
 Just trie it. I'am interested what you think about.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Today i rexieved the new ST good situation to change Chip OP 2 x LME49720NA=i/v, 1 x LT1364=Buffer (befor LM4562) the LT has for me the beneficial that voices have a bit more body and not as clinically as the LM4562. Still waiting for my diskrete OP's.
 About the plugin in Foobar where you can deside the upsamplingrate from 44100 to 96000. The 44100 deforms the Musik it's not worth to test it (but stil interesting to gamble with if sombody like to gamble).


----------



## leeperry

I don't think the LM4562NA sound clinical, it just sounds very thin and bright IMO.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Today i rexieved the new ST good situation to change Chip OP 2 x LME49720NA=i/v, 1 x LT1364=Buffer (befor LM4562) the LT has for me the beneficial that voices have a bit more body and not as clinically as the LM4562. Still waiting for my diskrete OP's.
 About the plugin in Foobar where you can deside the upsamplingrate from 44100 to 96000. The 44100 deforms the Musik it's not worth to test it (but stil interesting to gamble with if sombody like to gamble)._

 

Your gear also matter, amp,speaker, cans...etc

 The LM/LME's are very clear but they can be too "clinical" as you said to some, depending on your gear.

 To note, the LM4562NA and the LME49720NA are the exact same chip. According to National Semi, the only difference is the paint for the label.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think the LM4562NA sound clinical, it just sounds very thin and bright IMO._

 

Sorry i dont ment realy clinical i didn't find the right word i still like the performens from LM4562/LME49720NA lets say the LT1364 is a bit smoother.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your gear also matter, amp,speaker, cans...etc

 The LM/LME's are very clear but they can be too "clinical" as you said to some, depending on your gear.

 To note, the LM4562NA and the LME49720NA are the exact same chip. According to National Semi, the only difference is the paint for the label._

 

And you are aswell right. In the past i had a Mundorf Supreme Cap in my crossover Network for the tweeter i changed it becouse it was to much (clinical/Clear /strong high's) so i change the cap in a Mundorf Supreme Silver Oil Cap and the tweeter becomes quit perfect and smoother.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Today i rexieved the new ST good situation to change Chip OP 2 x LME49720NA=i/v, 1 x LT1364=Buffer (befor LM4562) the LT has for me the beneficial that voices have a bit more body and not as clinically as the LM4562. Still waiting for my diskrete OP's.
 About the plugin in Foobar where you can deside the upsamplingrate from 44100 to 96000. The 44100 deforms the Musik it's not worth to test it (but stil interesting to gamble with if sombody like to gamble)._

 

Opamp swpping is great as this allows people to not only improve the sound quality in many cases but "tune" it more to their liking.
 For instance the stock opamps provide excellent measurments but many prefer to change them for opamps that offer a different sonic signature.

 You would probably find your existing combination a bit too harsh, sterile or cold in the top end. As your basically using LM4562NA (LME49720) in all positions. As you said a opamp that is a bit smoother as your LT1364 would probably be the better choice for the buffer. 
 Which would help smooth out and warm up the sound more in compison to the LM/LME in the buffer. Most of the opamps choices will be very personal as your gear and ears are different then others. This is why personal testing is great to find out which work the best for you and your system.


----------



## fine art acoustic

That's the reason why i'am so hot and curious cant wait until my diskrete arrive


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's the reason why i'am so hot and curious cant wait until my diskrete arrive_

 

I really don't see how they can increase the details level, and also increase distortion 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 anyway, my quest is to get the most "clinical" undistorted balanced sound, so I prolly wouldn't fancy them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 too bad you didn't try the 49720HA..


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's the reason why i'am so hot and curious cant wait until my diskrete arrive_

 

Sure. They do require a good deal of burn in though. You can also mix and match, use the discretes for I/V and chip amps for buffer or Discrete for buffer and chip opamps for I/V. If you have any questions I can answer, drop me a PM.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ok, which ones then? each time I've found "NOS" DAC's being advertized, I checked the datasheet of the DAC IC and it was using mandatory 32 or 64X OS 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Besides the old tda1543 (most chinese ones) and 1541 (zanden and others), there is also AD1865 (audio note), pcm1704 (almost nobody use it nos, a pity).

 The oversampling is not mandatory in these chips. If they advertise as NOS and it's not, thats just bogus advertising.


----------



## leeperry

I meant "DAC" as a device, not as an IC...you can see many external DAC's advertized as "NOS" but if you read the IC datasheet, OS is mandatory 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and anyway, OS improves the post-filtering and decreases aliasing....what could possibly be wrong w/ that.


----------



## fine art acoustic

The diskrete arrived. Just testing Earth in i/v and Sun2 in the Buffer. Even not burn in yet sound improofment all around against Chip OP's. Sounstage seems to be a bit more flat (in the moment) than with chip's. But thats only a fast shoot they have to burn still in.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Sorry misted to tell about sound stage is further than with chip's but missed a little deep


----------



## ROBSCIX

That seems like a good combo
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Enjoy.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That seems like a good combo
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Enjoy._

 

And it's not true that the Sun2 is to bright like some other's mean, at least not at my equipment.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Nope. I don't think so either. Although I will say it is brighter then the Moon and Earth,


----------



## fine art acoustic

All me listening test are on Speakers:
 First impression i like voices with the Moon in the Buffer aswell piano is more realistic espally in the under octaves Gitarres aswell improof. Soundstage not as far as the Sun but the same deep (i hope deep will improof of both). This is a good OP for bright and week inventory. Week thing against the Sun2 is, if you had heard the Sun2 you will not miss the famous outworking of every Microdetail that is still a missing in the Moon (that means not that the Moon did not work out the deatils but the Sun does it incomparably better)


----------



## ROBSCIX

The different opamps (Earth,Sun or Moon) can be better matches for certain types of gear and headphones or speakers -not to mention personal taste.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I meant "DAC" as a device_

 

I quoted some commercial units in brackets. the ones which uses the ICs that listed should be true NOS, if they dont use a SRC.

  Quote:


 and anyway, OS improves the post-filtering and decreases aliasing....what could possibly be wrong w/ that. 
 

Nothing on paper and on the scope. In practice, there are lot of issues, in particular metallic sound and HF harsness. The analog post-filtering instead create a nice veil on the sound.


----------



## Ansh

The ST is not arriving until 20/7
 So depressing


----------



## ROBSCIX

..It is worth the wait.


----------



## leeperry

ok I got the board...finally 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the HP out seems to snap 1/4" plugs perfectly fine.

 I will be receiving the 7.1 daughter board next week, so I'll try that later on.

 now I'm gonna put back my 49720HA, all kind of heatsinks, put back my big VGA cooler(that the STX was blocking)...and we're back on track baby


----------



## The Oatman

Question: Could this card be used for grabbing an analog 2 channel stream from an SACD player and backing it up to my computer? Would it result in decent quality?


----------



## leeperry

quite frankly, you wanna capture all the 6 channels from SACD...a friend of mine did it w/ a Lynx2C soundcard in 24/192, cool stuff!

 and this card has NE5532 on the inputs, not the best choice...but yeah, the SQ would be good anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 humm, the ST really seems to sound different from the STX....but well, it's brand new, will need a few days to settle in I guess


----------



## Fantoon

More impressions please


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will be receiving the 7.1 daughter board next week, so I'll try that later on._

 

Where?


----------



## leeperry

damn, the stereo image is drastically different from the STX...and yes, I've put back the STX in the meantime to be sure.

 I was told that some ppl prefered the STX over the ST, I think I can understand why....it sounds clinical to the utmost. but well I like a sterile undistorted sound, my brain needs to get used to it I guess...and the card prolly needs some break-in as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 here's how it looks w/ heatsinks over the vital parts(DAC/HP amp/DSP/quartz PLL) and the three 49720(the 1ppm clock was too darn small to cover) :





 the top left 49720 was poorly bent, I've done it a lot better afterwards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS:* I'm hearing some slight stereo glitches I didn't get before, these were most likely partly masked by jitter


----------



## ROBSCIX

You cannot hear Jitter. What you hear is the affects it has on the sound, such as distortion and artifacting.


----------



## leeperry

I think I start to understand what ppl mean when they say that a DAC sounds "liquid"...basically your brain doesn't have to cope w/ constant "turbulence", the sound simply flows 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 w/ the 49720HA, the sound is scarily transparent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so many more details, and so much less crossfeed that the STX at 44.1Khz....my ears are bleeding atm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can only crave for the Asus Essence ST Super-Size Deluxe at this point


----------



## ROBSCIX

To those opamp swappers: I spent last night soldering up a bunch of new modules for testing. Ever unit required adapters as these were all surface mount chips, some required two units per module being single channel opamps.
 I should be posting some tests results in a few days.


----------



## e6600

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I start to understand what ppl mean when they say that a DAC sounds "liquid"...basically your brain doesn't have to cope w/ constant "turbulence", the sound simply flows 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 w/ the 49720HA, the sound is scarily transparent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so many more details, and so much less crossfeed that the STX at 44.1Khz....my ears are bleeding atm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can only crave for the Asus Essence ST Super-Size Deluxe at this point 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

so would you say that a stock ST > STx by a big margin?
 or even possibly worth a price increase ($200-280?)


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well the specificaitons for both cards are identical. 
 The difference being the new high precision clocking circuit which cuts down on alot of jitter.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so would you say that a stock ST > STx by a big margin?
 or even possibly worth a price increase ($200-280?)_

 

if you're looking for a crazily analytical sound, most definitely.

 the SQ is so good that many recordings that sounded fine on the STX just lack now on the ST...it's put the bar one notch further 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the stereo image is just way better, far less crossfeed/distortion...I read that some ppl were disturbed by the LME49720 level of details, that's exactly what I'm experiencing right now....there's FAR too many details for my little earthling ears, it'll take some time to get used to I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS: the ST is less than US $10 more expensive than the STX.


----------



## e6600

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well the specificaitons for both cards are identical. 
 The difference being the new high precision clocking circuit which cuts down on alot of jitter._

 

is that a new hardware component of the ST? or is it completely software based?
 may be possible to just flash the STx's bios and have it be recognized as a ST card to get the ST driver support


----------



## ROBSCIX

Hardware clock chip. Cleans up the master clock signal.


----------



## e6600

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you're looking for a crazily analytical sound, most definitely.

 the SQ is so good that many recordings that sounded fine on the STX just lack now on the ST...it's put the bar one notch further 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the stereo image is just way better, far less crossfeed/distortion...I read that some ppl were disturbed by the LME49720 level of details, that's exactly what I'm experiencing right now....there's FAR too many details for my little earthling ears, it'll take some time to get used to I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS: the ST is less than US $10 more expensive than the STX._

 

$10 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 i wonder if they will drop the prices of the STx or just phase it out.. either way for $210 USD, its unbeatable


----------



## leeperry

well, one of my test discs is the remastered(from the original master tapes) "Enter The Dragon" OST...god---- the chinese percs in track #6 are 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Amazon.com: Enter the Dragon: Lalo Schifrin: Music

 and the funk/jazz tracks also sound mind blowing...my upgraditis is at peace for now, until Asus does it again


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_$10 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 i wonder if they will drop the prices of the STx or just phase it out.. either way for $210 USD, its unbeatable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No, many are not interested in PCI gear.


----------



## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you're looking for a crazily analytical sound, most definitely.

 the SQ is so good that many recordings that sounded fine on the STX just lack now on the ST...it's put the bar one notch further 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the stereo image is just way better, far less crossfeed/distortion...I read that some ppl were disturbed by the LME49720 level of details, that's exactly what I'm experiencing right now....there's FAR too many details for my little earthling ears, it'll take some time to get used to I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS: the ST is less than US $10 more expensive than the STX._

 

This is confusing to read.. you're saying the SQ is so good, that it 'lacks' compared to STX? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And crossfeed and distortion are nowhere near the same thing, yet you write it as if they're synonymous?


----------



## DanD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, many are not interested in PCI gear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I've read somewhere that PCI is actually better compare to PCI Express, when dealing with jitter. PCI Express wasn't really design with that in mind but bandwdith throughput. Anyone can confirmed this ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Back when PCI-E was being talked about, Creative of all people stated that PCI-E was no good for audio for whatever reason. I have PCI and PCI-E cards and they all work great. I have never read nor seen any information which suggests that one interface is better then another in terms of stability of the clocking signals.


----------



## DanD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You cannot hear Jitter. What you hear is the affects it has on the sound, such as distortion and artifacting._

 

Correct me if I am wrong, Jitter refers to the drift in actual clock compare to reference clock. What you actually hear as a result of jitter is called phase distortion. Apparently (topic of debate) our ears are very sensitive to phase distortion. It is said that our ears can detect in order of microsecond in term of phase distortion. So that means our ears can detect phase distortion upto 1 MHz signal. That also means you need around 2 MHz sampling for digital audio not because we can hear ultrasonic frequency, but because we can detect phase distortion in signal less than that. 

 Is that also the reason why SACD sample the audio at 2+ MHz using DSD instead of standard PCM ? Their goal is being to avoid phase distortion ?

 Is there anyway of measuring jitter to compare ST and STX ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

There are many types of jitter, You cannot really "hear" jitter, as I mentioned all you hear is the negative affect it has on the output signal.

 The type we are talking about in relation to the clocking chip on the ST is periodic jitter which is variation in the start and end times in the transition of the master clock cycle.
 The master clock enables the DAC and ADC depending on these pulses. When these pulses arrive early or late the audio is converted at incorrect times which distorts the output signal. You can also have artifacting which can be mathematically related to the jitter in the clock signal. You are right though, it is a hot topic of debate. I prefer to stay out of that one.
 You can measure the difference if you have both cards and the tools to do so.
 To note, The STX and the ST measure the same for THD,IMD, Frequency Response, Dynamic range..etc.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DanD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've read somewhere that PCI is actually better compare to PCI Express, when dealing with jitter. PCI Express wasn't really design with that in mind but bandwdith throughput. Anyone can confirmed this ?_

 

The thing is PCI-E can help if you have more PCI-E's then PCI slots. and or can place cards in PCI-E slots but not in your pci slots etc. alot of boards have pci-e1x cards behind the video card that you can use.

 I could use my PCI slot as It would be in my way whenever i go sli.


----------



## 12Bass

Has anyone tried clocking another card (particularly the STX) from the ST's low jitter clock source? If the clock is making the difference, then slaving from the ST's clock ought to clean up the sound of other cards.


----------



## ROBSCIX

You can buy higher precision clocks if you want to replace the XO on your card.
 This works great for upgrading a soundcard. I know three guys that have upgraded some other cards with a high quality clock source. This is also a common way to upgrade a CD player...


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DanD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've read somewhere that PCI is actually better compare to PCI Express, when dealing with jitter. PCI Express wasn't really design with that in mind but bandwdith throughput. Anyone can confirmed this ?_

 

well, the STX has a PCI-E>PCI bridge, it's not going to help w/ latency(and jitter?)
 there's a tight link between both, the more latency the higher the jitter.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is confusing to read.. you're saying the SQ is so good, that it 'lacks' compared to STX? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And crossfeed and distortion are nowhere near the same thing, yet you write it as if they're synonymous?_

 

it's much more resolving.
 many recordings sounded OK on the STX, but *now* w/ the much more accurate stereo image sometimes you can hear slight glitches(the work of crappy op-amps in the mixers like the JRC5532?)

 it's been said that most recordings have gone through hundreds of 5532(mixers, preamps, etc etc), Gregorio has told us many times that ppl in studios couldn't care less about audiophile grade components....and you can hear that!

 the improved clocking drastically decreases crossfeed and distortion, the sound is not "held" back...it's hard to put words on it. read the Asus fluff, they're right! the jitter improvement is VERY audible 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 basically, the audio is not constantly cycling in the 2 channels, it stays L and R solid, not LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLR..if that makes any sense


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I would be very interested in upgrading the clock. The burson guys and kingwa have it.
 The problem is the STX clock runs at 24.576 MHz so I need to ask the guys what can be done here.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Here is the picture of it! ITS RIGHT OF THE AV100 , MARK X1


----------



## leeperry

I think the quartz PLL is the same speed on the ST, it's just got the additional CS2000 chip to improve it : Cirrus Logic Clocking IC Family Provides Best-in-Category Jitter Performance

  Quote:


 CS2000: The CS2000 features both frequency synthesis/clock generation from a stable reference clock, as well as generation of a low-jitter clock relative to an external noisy synchronization clock, at frequencies as low as 50Hz. 
 

and you'd still have the PCI-E>PCI bridge playing tricks on ya.

 you're better off selling the STX and get a brand new ST for that matter. welcome to computer upgraditis


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

yOU THINK there is so much difference between PCI and PCI exp?


----------



## 12Bass

Although I don't know specifics, I have some doubts about the PCI-E/PCI bridge being a problem. My suspicion is that the clocking on the DAC is where the difference lies, not the PCI data clocking.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yOU THINK there is so much difference between PCI and PCI exp?_

 

oh yes! the SQ is less "congested", the audio is well...I've never heard anything sounding this good tbh.

 they should put a big "this card will ruin your social life" sticker on the box 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and this clock can fall down to up to 0.5ppm from what the datasheet says.

 pursuing sonic excellence through burson/external PSU....and still using the STX doesn't make sense to me..IMVHO YMMV yada-yada.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Telstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I quoted some commercial units in brackets. the ones which uses the ICs that listed should be true NOS, if they dont use a SRC._

 

this guy is mixing upsampling and oversampling, or at least in his commercial fluff :
Valab NOS USB DAC TDA1543 Low Jitter 1ppm TCXO Inside - eBay (item 290315664632 end time Jun-02-09 14:59:57 PDT)

 and you can bet that the DAC in this box does 32 or 64X oversampling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and he says that he's proud to use an ancient chip, but what makes a DAC better than another is the post-filtering I think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *12Bass* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Although I don't know specifics, I have some doubts about the PCI-E/PCI bridge being a problem. My suspicion is that the clocking on the DAC is where the difference lies, not the PCI data clocking._

 

any reclocking should be avoided IMO. but it's new to me that PCI-E could be a problem for audio stuff ?! will dig into that


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Aha ok. Dont be so aggressive all the time! I was just asking!!!!!


----------



## leeperry

lol, agressive? you're the one putting all the !!! in every sentence


----------



## leeperry

actually going from the DT770/250Ω to the DT770/600Ω "freed" the trebles, they became a lot clearer and transparent(the drivers are much faster).

 going STX to ST is the same story, like this song for instance(lossless through DirectKS in foobar) : "Buju Banton - Hills and Valleys"

 no matter what I did, the hihat sounded distorted and mangled....and now it's as bright and clear as can be! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and again, the stereo image makes a lot more sense...it's like the STX wasn't really showing it to you perfectly synced


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Childish. 
 Will you sell your STX leeperry? 
 I must say I like the signature of mine connected to DARKVOICE3322. I have enormous sound stage and deep articular bass whit great details.


----------



## leeperry

the STX is basically a prototype of the ST..blame Asus.


----------



## Vandal

Leeperry sir, you've got them golden ears for sure. I have the STX with me and I'm asking ASUS for an ST to review just to confirm. I wish the card was available in India it isn't ATM.


----------



## leeperry

it doesn't take golden ears to hear the improvement, just my 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if that has any relevance, I have a sound engineer diploma and worked in a commercial studio for several years..but that doesn't mean much in the cyberworld


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Oh WAu... that is something. You are than really an expertise. I will sell mine. But have experienced that its really hard to sell this card in my country.


----------



## leeperry

well, in a few months Asus will prolly release the "Asus Essence Supa-Dupa ST Deluxe MK2"....and we'll all be screwed all over again


----------



## Vandal

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, in a few months Asus will prolly release the "Asus Essence Supa-Dupa ST Deluxe MK2"....and we'll all be screwed all over again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Ar*es just want us to keep parting with our hard earned cash. I'm waiting this out for another 6 months before I make a purchase.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

No.I just apply to all: COMPLAIN COMPLAIN .... BY ASUS !!!!! I THINK IF THEY ARE GOING
 ON THIS WAY THEY WILL LOOSE MANY COSTUMERS.


----------



## leeperry

hah, guys...I was kidding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you can't complain against technological improvements.

 ppl who bought the JVC RS2 for tons of cash, do you think they're happy about the new models that are WAY better and sell for cheaper?

 it's the same w/ everything, CPU's, mobo's, cars....companies constantly release new improved products, these are the roots of capitalism and keep the inve$tors happy...and the customers as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Auzentech tried and failed. Asus has far more PCB engineering expertise IMHO...and I was in contact w/ HTOmega, the RMAA results for their Claro Halo are laughable.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes yes...technological improvements. You think they did not have the finished board of ST when they began to sell STX! It was a marketing strategy. This guys at first see only profit!


----------



## leeperry

they're the market leaders atm, because they have the best engineers...you can do the hell you want when you're #1. try to imagine what Intel & nvidia would do to us if AMD didn't exist.

 hopefully, Auzentech will wake up and show up front...but they don't really have Asus experience w/ PCB shielding apparently. anyway, the ST in a substantial improvement...take your decision from there, but we're not talking about a $5000 unit here


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes yes...technological improvements. You think they did not have the finished board of ST when they began to sell STX! It was a marketing strategy. This guys at first see only profit!_

 

No matter what card you buy there will be another better one released next round. This is the game of PC hardware and should be nothing new.
 The trick is to buy a good card the first time out as both cards are still awesome soundcards.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Soundcards don't advance as fast as other PC components. 
 It would seem that the ST was originally slated to be the PCI version of the STX. Last minute additions such as the Clock circuit and Pin_header changed it's purpose just a bit.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes. I want to upgrade the clock on my stx or maybe st when I sell the stx. I saw its the same chip it 475 on both cards. ROBSCIX you talked about some guys did this I want some more datails please.


----------



## ROBSCIX

On the X-Meridians 7.1 when first released. They added external clock sources, high precision clocks meant for upgrading CD players. I will look around and find the information and PM it to you if your interested in this modification.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DanD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jitter refers to the drift in actual clock compare to reference clock. *What you actually hear as a result of jitter is called phase distortion.* Apparently (topic of debate) our ears are very sensitive to phase distortion. It is said that our ears can detect in order of microsecond in term of phase distortion._

 

I think you nailed it, the improvement is identical as going from a cheapo EQ to a linear phase controlled EQ. it's not distortion per se, it's phase distortion...which ruins the stereo soundstage


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Leeperry. What happened to your "jitter is not audible attitude"?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes. I want to upgrade the clock on my stx or maybe st when I sell the stx. I saw its the same chip it 475 on both cards. ROBSCIX you talked about some guys did this I want some more datails please._

 

The ST has a additional chip. Posted informaiton about it many,many pages ago. This chip cleans up the jitter and noise in the XO making the master clock much more precise. Now, if you used a higher quality clock source from the start such as adding in a high precision external unit, it would do exactly the same thing.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes, but if I add the external clock to the STX would not be such a great improvement because of the PCI EXPRESS - that told leeperry. So if you buy a ST then an external clock does not matter because of the filtering process of the additional chip. Am I right?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Why? What your trying to improve with the high precision XO is the Jitter in the master clock that is enabling the DAC...


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

That would be logical but leeperry said something about the pci express.


----------



## leeperry

why would you wanna play god w/ a <$200 soundcard? sell it on ebay, get the new one. end of story, the resale process will cost you like $50 or so. do you know better than the Asus engineers? do you have the right equipment/knowledge to do that?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

This is what I am attending to do. But if I wont sell my STX than should I upgrade the clock????


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why would you wanna play god w/ a <$200 soundcard? sell it on ebay, get the new one. end of story, the resale process will cost you like $50 or so. do you know better than the Asus engineers? do you have the right equipment/knowledge to do that?_

 

Apparently you do as you were telling everybody jitter was not audible, Even running around from thread to thread with a foolish test. Now your telling everybody the total opposite and the ST sound "substantially" better and "apparently" jitter is very audible?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is what I am attending to do. But if I wont sell my STX than should I upgrade the clock????_

 

Do the research yourself and decide from there.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is what I am attending to do. But if I wont sell my STX than should I upgrade the clock????_

 

ruin your STX if you want to, your choice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ask more ST owners for impressions against the STX, so you'll have more feedback than just mine...but they're prolly too busy having eargasms to bother coming here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it's like AVS, they call it "the place to become unhappy"


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

How much better is the ST sounding when compering to STX? What do you notice?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

The best thing is to test on your own. I want this. So I need to sell it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The best thing is to test on your own. I want this. So I need to sell it._

 

You can use your external PSU Kingwa is sending on the ST!


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes why not? Do you think there are some other voltage regulations? molex is molex but maybe this card is???


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much better is the ST sounding when compering to STX? What do you notice?_

 

better stereo phase lock control.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_better stereo phase lock control._

 

That doesn't tell us anything. I'm not even convinced the ST is in any way better than the STX. I'll reserve that judgment for when I hear it myself. Give specific differences in sound between the two, don't just say it's "better". With slight inflections in sound at this level, one man's better could be another man's worse.


----------



## leeperry

hey pink cat, how's life! I'm not an asus sales rep.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That doesn't tell us anything. I'm not even convinced the ST is in any way better than the STX. I'll reserve that judgment for when I hear it myself. Give specific differences in sound between the two, don't just say it's "better". With slight inflections in sound at this level, one man's better could be another man's worse._

 

Well you have to remember that Lee also told the forum that ST drivers made his STX sound better also.


----------



## leeperry

yaisse, thrust teh reel praws like robbie-six 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the ST sounds way worse than teh STX, I'm just pulling your legs


----------



## ROBSCIX

For those opamps swappers that are planning on buying the ST and the H6 DAC board in the future, you will have many more opamps to play with as the full ST Deluxe has 12 opamps. 4 opamps for single end buffer and 8 for I/V.




 The Center and subwoofer share a SE buffer opamp but they have seperate I/V opamps. If you can see the labels above. This allows you to use different opamps for your center and subwoofer.

 For instance, you could use a OPA2107 for the center and a OPA2227 for bass response on the subwoofer. These are just examples of units but you can see the posibilities. This setup allows you to dial in your center and subwoofer the way you want.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well you have to remember that Lee also told the forum that ST drivers made his STX sound better also.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I guess. I knew it'd be a waste of time replying to him. The funny thing is I was just offering sincere advice, but he misunderstood and got defensive.


----------



## leeperry

as long as you don't hear the ST, you don't really realize how bad phase distortion is on the STX...you can sleep on your 2 ears pinky pinky, so to speak


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess. I knew it'd be a waste of time replying to him. The funny thing is I was just offering sincere advice, but he misunderstood and got defensive._

 

Yes, waste of time. 
 If you look at the measurments of both cards they are identical. If there is any audible difference between them, the clocking circuit is responsible.


----------



## 12Bass

From my own experience, I can say that clocking can make an audible difference though I'm not sure how measurable such a difference might be, at least with something like RMAA. A more detailed analysis tool is probably necessary.


----------



## BoilermakerFan

Are there any respectable online retailers stocking the ST ins the States? My basic searches have come up short. I'll have my LCS see if they can order it for me too, but an option for an online retailer would be great.


----------



## Solid Snake

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BoilermakerFan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are there any respectable online retailers stocking the ST ins the States? My basic searches have come up short. I'll have my LCS see if they can order it for me too, but an option for an online retailer would be great._

 

x2

 Just as I was about to purchase the STX, I hear about this. Any online retailers out there? A quick search doesn't show anything.


----------



## leeperry

it's pretty hard to come by in Europe, so you might need to look really hard...or wait, it's well worth the wait over the STX imho.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I asked asus about the possibility of upgrading the clock chip on STX. They said that they will contact me when they have the right answer.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I asked asus about the possibility of upgrading the clock chip on STX. They said that they will contact me when they have the right answer._

 

What you would be upgrading on the STX is the XO. 
 It has 3 connections IIRC...


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes I would but does it make any sense? Do you know which of the pins are for what?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Please tell me everything you know about it! Has anybody tried yet?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes I would but does it make any sense? Do you know which of the pins are for what?_

 

Yes. I know which pins are for what signal. The XO is a very simple component and you are very far from "Playing god with yur soundcard" well, I guess it could seem that way if you have no knowledge of electronics.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ask your questions through PM so we can let the thread get back to the ST.


----------



## leeperry

one thing that's rather strange is that if you compare the measurements booklets for the ST vs STX....they're actually a little worse on the ST for SNR/THD+N and crosstalk 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I believe they're both available on the Asus website if you wanna check it out.

 but well, the stock JRC2114D really don't help, either...I guess, or not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway three 49720NA on the ST is a good compromise, me like


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I got a message from asus and its telling that there are no or should be no differences in sound quality comparing ST and STX!


----------



## ForTiNeRo

and so they have totally wasted their time with de clocking circuit? I really don't think so..


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got a message from asus and its telling that there are no or should be no differences in sound quality comparing ST and STX!_

 

to the average joe, w/ $10 speakers...there will be no audible difference!


----------



## ROBSCIX

How many users currently own ST's?

 For the opamps swappers, I soldered up some great new modules the other night and will post some results soon.


----------



## oqvist

oh is the ST released already... So now is the question get this or wait for the Hometheater Hd card lol
 have they fixed the bitperfect yet and is there any problem with running analogue and bypassing the amp section for cleanest signal to external amp?


----------



## leeperry

the bit-matched drivers are supposed to show up anytime soon. I wasn't given any deadline, though.

 you can output to the lineout w/ a single mouse click.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many users currently own ST's?

 For the opamps swappers, I soldered up some great new modules the other night and will post some results soon._

 

i own the ST included the H6 daughter board


----------



## leeperry

hey fine art! how do you like the ST on headphones? I was using the STX built-in HP amp w/o crossfeed, but it's mandatory for me on the ST...otherwise the stereo stage feels really strange and very fatiguing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but w/ the naive crossfeed plugin in foobar, it's really fantastic


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i own the ST included the H6 daughter board
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, not to many have the ST Deluxe model yet. How are your tests coming along?
 Drop me a PM and let me know how the tests are progressing and we can compare notes.


----------



## leeperry

here's a whole bunch of RMAA measurements I've done yesterday on my ST : MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

 when it doesn't say "HP" it means it's on the lineout, and when it doesn't say "Monster" it means I used a pretty lousy cable.

 but even w/ the Monster cable, crosstalk is only -95 dB on the lineout, when it's actually -108 on the HP out(mid setting) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 that's w/ the stock op-amps, and the ST also measured worse than the STX in the two booklets shipped w/ the cards..


----------



## oqvist

hmm so you get better values when running through the amp section? I guess crosstalk should be as much - as possible?

 also how do you read .sav files?


----------



## leeperry

-95 is not bad I guess, the Claro Halo also gives -95...but the STX gives 101 on the line out, and 108 on the HP out(identical to the ST) : Two in One: Asus Xonar Essence STX Sound Card Review (page 7) - X-bit labs

 but the ST has a killer clock, that the STX doesn't...and man, does that clock make a hell of a difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you need RMAA to read SAV files


----------



## Skobb

How much was the daughter board?
 Are there any places selling this card yet that would ship to Australia?

 Also, I'm new to these forums, I usually hang around the PC Audio section on OCAU and got reffered to this site the other day..
 I have Logitech Z-5500s hence why I've been waiting for something that can do 5:1, but due to the err.. quality? of the speakers, will I notice much difference in quality over the ST + H6 daughter board and say.. An Auzentech Forte or Prelude?

 Another thing, I've just recently started ripping my music into .FLAC, but in the past due to limited hard drive space I've been ripping my music into anything from 192kbps to 320 kbps .mp3 files.. Will I just notice no improvement with these songs, or will the card pick out all the little nuances and make the music unbearable to listen to?

 Cheers


----------



## oqvist

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_-95 is not bad I guess, the Claro Halo also gives -95...but the STX gives 101 on the line out, and 108 on the HP out(identical to the ST) : Two in One: Asus Xonar Essence STX Sound Card Review (page 7) - X-bit labs

 but the ST has a killer clock, that the STX doesn't...and man, does that clock make a hell of a difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you need RMAA to read SAV files_

 

hmm what difference does a killer clock make in term of sound? Speak english for gods sake


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what difference does a killer clock make in term of sound?_

 

Burson Clock

 everything they say applies to the STX>ST difference in my experience.


----------



## oqvist

Thanks got a bit wiser by that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So I take that as you preferr the ST overall then?


----------



## leeperry

most definitely! but my brain wasn't prepared for such a highly detailed stereo image tbh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, after adding a bit of crossfeeding in foobar to make the sound more human-compliant(
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), it's fantastic!

 I switched the ST and STX several times, and the STX had a messy stereo image in comparison....at least in my experience. YMMV IMHO applies more than it ever did before here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wanted to try it on my KRK Rokit, but apparently my t-amp is busted...I will order a more sturdy one today(HLLY TAMP-20).

 PS: BTW, I never really understood how you were mixing headphones and glasses....you literally put the glasses "legs" on top of your HP


----------



## oqvist

Yup that is the only way to do it. on top of the headphones but inside the headband of the headphones of course. Otherwise every headphone turns into a Grado 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...

 I ordered the ST now. can´t wait to see how it stacks up to my receiver, Elite Pro (which will hopefully go out the window) and my Keces DAC. I wonder if the Keces have this clocking stuff will have to look it up.


----------



## leeperry

so what's the diff between putting the HP after the glasses...instead of the opposite? I don't get it.

 hah, your Elite Pro will be crushed...no worries


----------



## The Oatman

Has anybody here listened to both a Xonar Essence card (ST or STX) and a Lynx L22/Two? I would like to know your impressions. I want a card not just for listening but for digitizing a whole lot of Vinyl.

 EDIT: I want to clarify that this is for listening over speakers, hooked up to an amp, not headphones. From what I've read, I am definitely leaning toward the L22 for the line in quality.


----------



## 12Bass

FWIW, the Lynx cards use OP275s IIRC, which are not among my preferred opamps....


----------



## The Oatman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *12Bass* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_FWIW, the Lynx cards use OP275s IIRC, which are not among my preferred opamps...._

 

Could you elaborate on that?


----------



## 12Bass

Not very transparent sounding chip... kinda compressed/EQed sounding and muddled in low-level detail for lack of a better description. Of course, that's only one aspect of the Lynx cards, which seem otherwise very well designed.


----------



## katanka

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yup that is the only way to do it. on top of the headphones but inside the headband of the headphones of course. Otherwise every headphone turns into a Grado 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...

 I ordered the ST now. can´t wait to see how it stacks up to my receiver, Elite Pro (which will hopefully go out the window) and my Keces DAC. I wonder if the Keces have this clocking stuff will have to look it up._

 

Let me know how the ST stacks up agains your Keces DAC


----------



## oqvist

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so what's the diff between putting the HP after the glasses...instead of the opposite? I don't get it.

 hah, your Elite Pro will be crushed...no worries 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Since you perhaps didn´t grasp the concept I thought you maybe put your glasses outside the headphones or something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It doesn´t matter if you put your headphones on before or after putting on the headphones. You just let the calms rest above the headphone pads as to not put any pressure whatsoever on your head due to the headphone clamping force. So there is no difference at all using them with or without glasses. 

 I will come back regarding the Keces. Now how much burn in does soundcards need to sound their best same as for external DACs?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It doesn´t matter if you put your headphones on before or after putting on the headphones._

 

I think there's a language barrier, I never understand what's it all about 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, let us know how the ST works out for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 leave a few days for the caps and op-amps to "open up"(if that makes any sense) I'd say


----------



## oqvist

I suppose I could try german as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... But one last attempt. Wear glasses normally. Put on headphones... The glasses calm pressure on your head and it hurts. Put glasses calm above the headphones ear cups and wear the glasses at an angle and no more pressure on the calms and thus no more pressure on your head 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skobb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much was the daughter board?
 Are there any places selling this card yet that would ship to Australia?

 Also, I'm new to these forums, I usually hang around the PC Audio section on OCAU and got reffered to this site the other day..
 I have Logitech Z-5500s hence why I've been waiting for something that can do 5:1, but due to the err.. quality? of the speakers, will I notice much difference in quality over the ST + H6 daughter board and say.. An Auzentech Forte or Prelude?

 Another thing, I've just recently started ripping my music into .FLAC, but in the past due to limited hard drive space I've been ripping my music into anything from 192kbps to 320 kbps .mp3 files.. Will I just notice no improvement with these songs, or will the card pick out all the little nuances and make the music unbearable to listen to?

 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

He has the H6 board because he took it off a HDAV 1.3. The H6 daughter cards are not avialable for the ST just yet. The ST Deluxe would definatley push your speaker to their limits but I think in the end they woudl be the weak link in your chain. Do you use any qaulity headphones?
 If your looking for a new soudncard for music this one is a great choice, with the full 7.1 support and heapdhone amplifier.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hey fine art! how do you like the ST on headphones? I was using the STX built-in HP amp w/o crossfeed, but it's mandatory for me on the ST...otherwise the stereo stage feels really strange and very fatiguing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but w/ the naive crossfeed plugin in foobar, it's really fantastic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry i haven't the time to check it. I had so much work over the weekend with the roof of my house. So i couldt not make any listening test as i planed.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, not to many have the ST Deluxe model yet. How are your tests coming along?
 Drop me a PM and let me know how the tests are progressing and we can compare notes._

 

Latest point to improof 7.1 blue-ray is on the next weekend as well for the Moon in the i/v spot i promised. last 3 days was realy stressfull with 12 hours work each day and i'am pretty much done.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Keep me posted as we can compare test results.


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Keep me posted as we can compare test results._

 

i will drop a PM after testing.


----------



## Skobb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He has the H6 board because he took it off a HDAV 1.3. The H6 daughter cards are not avialable for the ST just yet. The ST Deluxe would definatley push your speaker to their limits but I think in the end they woudl be the weak link in your chain. Do you use any qaulity headphones?
 If your looking for a new soudncard for music this one is a great choice, with the full 7.1 support and heapdhone amplifier._

 

Ahhh ok.. So I guess I'd be waiting for a bit for the ST Deluxe? Are there plans for the daughter board be sold seperately or should I wait until the ST Deluxe package comes on the market?
 When I finished High School there was a 4 month gap between then and when I started full time study at TAFE, so I got a job and bought a bunch of things, including the Z-5500s, which were a big upgrade from some cheapo $60 stereo speakers I had before lol
 The headphones I use are Sennheiser eH250, nothing great, but they still cost me $120 at the time, and they are definately a lot better than all the Philips, Sony etc headphones I've used in the past..
 Anyway.. I'm a full-time student without a job at the moment, so I don't intend on upgrading my speakers or headphones for a good couple years..

 So do you think I would still notice an improvement in quality with the ST Deluxe over the D2X or one of the Auzentech offerings with my current setup? Even with most of my music being <320kbps?
 If you can honestly say that I will not notice any difference, then I might just go and get another card.. But even if I'd notice a small difference in quality, I think waiting for the ST Deluxe would be worth it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks


----------



## ROBSCIX

Modern soundcards would definately push the Z-5500's to their limits for sound quality bit I think they might end up being the weak link using a newer card.

 What are you using right now?
 You would notice a difference from a onboard or cheaper card to a modern card. Maybe look around one of the other forums for guys with the setup your considering.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skobb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahhh ok.. So I guess I'd be waiting for a bit for the ST Deluxe? Are there plans for the daughter board be sold seperately or should I wait until the ST Deluxe package comes on the market?_

 

maybe they will be bundled, but Asus has made it clear(even on the ST retail box) that the daughter board will be sold separately.


----------



## oqvist

what is this st deluxe? what differ from the st if not the daughter card???


----------



## ROBSCIX

The ST Deluxe, is just the name some have given to the Essence ST with the H6 DAC Daughter card. such as the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe.


----------



## meisalex

Hi I am new here. I have learned much by reading Head-Fi for a few days now, but one thing I can't figure out. I've seen people output signal to another amp, are they using the line out or analog out? If you use the analog out, does this mean the signal is being amped twice?

 Another question: do you think they will make a daughter card to include an optical-in? I wonder if ST will be better than Astro Mixamp for Xbox 360.


----------



## ROBSCIX

There is the line-out and Headphone out. Many use headphone out for their cans and some use Lineout for their speaker amps. -then again a few use their headphone amp for their speaker amp. 
 The H6 Daughter card does NOT have a S/pdif input.


----------



## ChinaJay

Does anyone know where the Xonar ST can currently be purchased? Thanks!


----------



## soulrider4ever

I'd like to see the ST have an addon card with the same DAC's as the L/R as the ST 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Call it ST Premium or something..


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ChinaJay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know where the Xonar ST can currently be purchased? Thanks!_

 

I am pretty sure currently they are avialable in Europe in a few places and should be making their way to the states and Canada very soon.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *soulrider4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd like to see the ST have an addon card with the same DAC's as the L/R as the ST 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Call it ST Premium or something.._

 

The DAC's on the H6 aren't bad at all.
 The DAC on the ST has a SNR of about 124dB and the H6 of 120dB.

 You never know they may produce a different board for use with this card. The pin header is there so the designers have options.


----------



## Blak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is the line-out and Headphone out. Many use headphone out for their cans and some use Lineout for their speaker amps. -then again a few use their headphone amp for their speaker amp._

 

Unfortunately I know very little about opamps and line-out levels. I'm going to use the ST in a 5.1 surround setup, with an external amp. In this situation, can anything be gained by switching op-amps? Or is this an interesting option for headphones only?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Blak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unfortunately I know very little about opamps and line-out levels. I'm going to use the ST in a 5.1 surround setup, with an external amp. In this situation, can anything be gained by switching op-amps? Or is this an interesting option for headphones only?_

 

You can get excellent gains with the ST and H6 daughter card as you can swap opamps for EVERY channel.
 You can use high grade opamps for your fronts, rears and sides. You can also use specially chosen opamps for the Center and subwoofer.

 Actually, the surround setup allows to most configuration options for opamp swappers.
 Here have a look at these pics I added to the thread awhile back and you can see the options.
Xonar Essence ST Deluxe 7.1
H6 DAC Expansion Card

 Hope this helps.


----------



## leeperry

and it's got solid caps, no Nichicon "Fine Gold" caps this time...I think I read that solid caps were not as great as liquid for audio.


----------



## soulrider4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The DAC's on the H6 aren't bad at all.
 The DAC on the ST has a SNR of about 124dB and the H6 of 120dB.

 You never know they may produce a different board for use with this card. The pin header is there so the designers have options._

 


 That would be sweet if they did 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I currently own the Xonar D2X, I'm assuming this card would be a significant upgrade in SQ, or am I assuming wrong?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, according to measurments the STX/ST are superior to the older D2(X) cards.

 The H6 card is a very open design also so it woudn't take much for some quick modifications such as some black gate caps or others.


----------



## soulrider4ever

Can't wait to buy it and find out for myself


----------



## ForTiNeRo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and it's got solid caps, no Nichicon "Fine Gold" caps this time...I think I read that solid caps were not as great as liquid for audio._

 

wich one has solid caps? the ST has Nichicon "Fine Gold" caps, according with asus.com specs. or were you talking about the H6?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ForTiNeRo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_were you talking about the H6?_

 

yep


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ForTiNeRo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wich one has solid caps? the ST has Nichicon "Fine Gold" caps, according with asus.com specs. or were you talking about the H6?_

 

The H6 DAC expansion board was made for use with the HDAV 1.3.

 The ST has the Pin header which allows connection to this H6 card or possibly others.

 H6 DAC Chip TI Burr-Brown PCM1796  (120SNR - Measured)

 STX/ST DAC chip TI Burr-Brown PCM1792A (124SNR - Measured)


----------



## soulrider4ever

I just wonder if the different DAC's would be noticeable in movies with the center channel namely.


----------



## oqvist

Will be interesting to see how they stack up to the burr brown 1680 and 1780 I have on my receiver


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Will be interesting to see how they stack up to the burr brown 1680 and 1780 I have on my receiver 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The DAC chip in the STX/ST is one of the best made. Many of the mid grade and even some high grade units do not use the best DAC's they can.

 Compare the specs sheets if your interested in the differences.


----------



## Telstar

Yep, the specs do not limit to SNR. The pcm 1792 really sounds good, one of the best, if not the best sigma-delta dac in production.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes the pcm 1792 is one of the best DAC chips made. Many hi-end DAC use them. Here is just one of them:
 CEC DA 1 N whit 2x 1792A


----------



## ROBSCIX

Would be nice to get a card running two of these for each stereo pair. One chip for each channel.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

That would be nice. Maybe will asus do so??


----------



## soulrider4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would be nice to get a card running two of these for each stereo pair. One chip for each channel._

 

Flex that Guru3D muscle and push for it, can't hurt


----------



## alex98uk

Well, apparently these are released but I can't find them anywhere. Asus's site has them as available with drivers for download, but the only UK retailer is on ebay which seems bizarre. 

 Anyone know what's going on? I would get an STX, but it doesn't fit my motherboard (NB in the way).


----------



## ROBSCIX

Be patient they are hitting the shelves everywhere very soon.


----------



## dwk

From what is know about the differences between the clocking mechanisms in ST and the STX, is there enough info to speculate on whether there are any driver implications? I'm looking at this from the Linux perspective - support for the Xonar series (including STX) is present to some degree in the newest Alsa versions, but if the ST requires explicit programming of any new clocking features, it's unlikely to trickle down to the Alsa drivers for quite some time. If this is just a hardware enhancement and the clock selection code is unchanged, then it's highly likely that the STX code will port over to the ST with minimal effort.

 Any guesses/speculation/insight?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dwk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what is know about the differences between the clocking mechanisms in ST and the STX, is there enough info to speculate on whether there are any driver implications? I'm looking at this from the Linux perspective - support for the Xonar series (including STX) is present to some degree in the newest Alsa versions, but if the ST requires explicit programming of any new clocking features, it's unlikely to trickle down to the Alsa drivers for quite some time. If this is just a hardware enhancement and the clock selection code is unchanged, then it's highly likely that the STX code will port over to the ST with minimal effort.

 Any guesses/speculation/insight?_

 

No. The improved clocking is done at the lowest hardware level. What the are attempting to do with the ST clocking circuit is improve on the masterclock signal that enables the DAC/ADC more precise.


----------



## meisalex

Hi could anyone tell me how does STX/ST compare with Audio-gd Compass?
 And can ST properly drive DT880 (660ohm)


----------



## leeperry

if you wanna see the official measurements, there's the PDF here: http://www.unitycorp.co.jp/asus/soun...eport_0226.pdf

 they're slightly worse than the STX: http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/Aud...est_Report.pdf

 there's also the slight FR imbalance between the 2 channels on the ST...and not on the STX, so my card is not faulty! it gave me the same thing in RMAA

 and there's some graphs for the ST at the bottom of this page : http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 it seems to concur w/ the bottom of page7 on the PDF...some funky spikes coming out of nowhere, and not to be seen on the STX..


----------



## ROBSCIX

FR imbalance? Where do you see this?


----------



## leeperry

look at the bottom of page 3, on the STX the FR for both channels is perfectly identical...on the ST, there's a slight level difference.

 and that's how it looked in RMAA for me....same as in this test :





 and it's the same on both the line-out and the HP out....I know the Claro Halo also has a slight difference between both channels like the ST, but the STX is spot-on!


----------



## ROBSCIX

No the STX has a slight difference also your see two different colors overlapped....what your seeing in RMAA is so slight that could be the difference in a shotty connectors.
 Hmm, pretty sure when I measured it, I noticed no difference in response.


----------



## leeperry

the STX looks perfectly spot-on for me, and my ST looks identical to the ST report...w/ a very slight mismatch...whatever on the line-out or the HP out.

 also, the crosstalk and SNR look better on the STX, just like the THD+N test at the bottom of page 7....but one thing that's clearly audible is the improved clock on the ST!


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the STX looks perfectly spot-on for me, and my ST looks identical to the ST report...w/ a very slight mismatch...whatever on the line-out or the HP out.

 also, the crosstalk and SNR look better on the STX, just like the THD+N test at the bottom of page 7....but one thing that's clearly audible is the improved clock on the ST! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hi leeperry,
 by all the Data Measurements the only thing what counts is the listening. I have hear units with not so good Data but they realy sound better than units with much better Datas. So please tell us something about your listening experiences


----------



## leeperry

oh sure, the STX stereo stage sounds messy compared to the ST....yet the STX measures better in the official Asus AP measurements, kinda odd 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've also posted my RMAA results here : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/5862650-post125.html

 the crosstalk on the line-out is not nearly as good as the STX, and same for IMD+N : http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi...images/087.htm


----------



## oqvist

Got mine today. First impressions is good but then it´s just about always refreshing with new sound signatures. Seems to be a real party system. Disappointed of not getting more luxury. With the Elite Pro you get all kind of software and the best media player available. Here you get nothing but the core drivers and the packaging and documentation is really cheap. And not console. But surely every capacitor on the card is x2 including the PSU connector lol. So it´s okay if it continue to deliver


----------



## katanka

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got mine today. First impressions is good but then it´s just about always refreshing with new sound signatures. Seems to be a real party system. Disappointed of not getting more luxury. With the Elite Pro you get all kind of software and the best media player available. Here you get nothing but the core drivers and the packaging and documentation is really cheap. And not console. But surely every capacitor on the card is x2 including the PSU connector lol. So it´s okay if it continue to deliver 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Let me know how it stax up against keces


----------



## magnetiq

Anyone who had/has a D2 got their hand on one of these yet? or even a good review that compares them?

 I really need to know if the Essence is better, i've some some reviews say that they are, but these are extremely vague.

 thanks


----------



## ROBSCIX

I had a D2/D2X awhile back and while a good card in it's own right. It is not quite up to the sound quality of the STX or ST.


----------



## leeperry

I know someone in this thread sent back his ST because the HP jack didn't hold plugs properly.

 this is how the DIP8 sockets should look like : http://www.eal.gr/Scan48.jpg

 this is how the bottom right socket looks like on my ST : http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9601/dscn1662c.jpg

 were the QA guys at the factory on vacation? how can the bottom row be so rusty/oxydated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will send it back today for RMA....this little "joke" is gonna cost me 20 EUR, 10 days before I get a replacement....and many ear pains because it would appear that the sound is lousy because the op-amp is oscillating(due to bad contact) and my brain doesn't like it at all.

 I never had any ear pains with the STX! I should have never bought this ST card, ******* upgraditis


----------



## ROBSCIX

Sockets can become tarnish for many reasons. For example, Putting opamps in after you have Touched the pins and transfered oil, dirt, sweat to the pins.
 You should never touch the pins if you can help it. 

 Those are press made sockets...meaning they are run off by the 10's of thousands. Every now and again your going to get a bad one.

 I would find a local electronics tech that can solder in some machined sockets for you.
 You can get high grade sockets for very cheap. Just make sure they are machined pins, meaning when you look at the holes where the opamp pins go they are circular and not like the stock ones.


----------



## leeperry

this socket was like this when I bought it! actually I tried to scratch it a bit because it was completely black in the first place 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm expecting some of these : http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/6559/23272450.jpg

 and I still rest my case that the ST is far more tiring on headphones than the STX..but again I usually listen to music on headphones for like +10H/day, reason why my brain started to go nuts I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the STX was fine, but the ST stereo image is a lot more demanding to your brain IMHO.....god bless crossfeeding, and I'll try to not go over 6H/day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will RMA this dud, hope that the new one will have pristine sockets....and maybe I'll get a shop to swap them w/ the golden ones(that cost $0.60 a pop, maybe Asus could have used these in the first place 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## ROBSCIX

I was giving a example. It is very easy to get these sockets tarnished and it can happen from many sources.

 Now it's the card? This and the other thread about your messed up headphones seems to suggest your really unsure what the issue is.

 You need to isolate the issue, either it is the card or the headphones.


----------



## leeperry

well, problems arose right when I switched from the STX to the ST...that's what I'm 100% sure of!

 maybe that tarnished socket was making the op-amp oscillate at a non-audible freq...which would explain the ear drum pain I've been experiencing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will RMA this dud, and hope that the new one will have pristine sockets


----------



## ROBSCIX

If your planning on changing out the sockets with machined ones, why bother sending the card back? 
 Just change out the sockets.


----------



## leeperry

yeah, I thought about that...but this thing cost me $250 at this point. I'd rather spend another $25 of RMA shipping to Germany, so I get a fully working/properly assembled replacement one(if any possible 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 if that were a $100 card, I'd say "go for it!" but this card is not cheap....so I'd rather get what I paid for in the first place, and then take it from there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and fotios answered me, it's not exactly easy to switch these damn things due to the multilayer PCB...killing my card would be rather annoying


----------



## ROBSCIX

Your money. 


 As for changing the sockets. If you have no electronics experience...then no, it is not easy and chances are you will over heat everything and turn your card into a paperweight. Not to mention you need the right tools also.


----------



## leeperry

of course I would get that shop to do the work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 they have hot air machines and they're very used to do this sort of things...but the idea of seeing my $275(including RMA shipping costs) soundcard go up in smoke doesn't sound too exciting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 still these gold plated sockets look night and day w/ the stock junk..


----------



## oqvist

Seriously is there anyone with the Essence ST and stock op amps that don´t LOVE the K701 on it? If so I want to hear what you listen to that beats it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...

 It´s just crazy as much as the Pro 900 and speakers suck on it the K701 rocks...
 I would be really disappointed with this soundcard if it wasn´t for the K701 honestly.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Certain headphones would blend well with certain opamp configurations.
 There may be other configuration that might sound better to you on those cans.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seriously is there anyone with the Essence ST and stock op amps that don´t LOVE the K701 on it? If so I want to hear what you listen to that beats it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...

 It´s just crazy as much as the Pro 900 and speakers suck on it the K701 rocks...
 I would be really disappointed with this soundcard if it wasn´t for the K701 honestly._

 

the stock op-amps are the complete opposite of analytical and they're pretty bassy, so indeed they might fit the K701 nicely.

 the Pro900 is boomy as hell, so indeed I don't really seem them fit...even the 49720HA would be over the top on these.


----------



## oqvist

I bought the NA not the HA what differs between those?. And yes your description fits very much what I hear from the Essence ST compared to my other systems. 

 Would certainly need a lot of cotton wool but it´s possible to get K701 type bass out of the Pro 900. But then I could as well sell my other DAC/amps combos I suppose if I would end up preferring this


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought the NA not the HA what differs between those?. And yes your description fits very much what I hear from the Essence ST compared to my other systems. 

 Would certainly need a lot of cotton wool but it´s possible to get K701 type bass out of the Pro 900. But then I could as well sell my other DAC/amps combos I suppose if I would end up preferring this_

 

Many suggest that the HA model sounds a bit better then the NA models.

 The LME49720NA is the same chip as the LM4562NA.

 For the HA versions, you also need adapters to use them as they are metal Can TO-99.
 HA = TO-99 metal can opamp, NA = DIP8 opamp


----------



## cfrank

Just wanted to say ive been reading your views on the asus essence st for some time ,like most poeple who read this forum i wanted to upgrade my sound card from my creative xfi..which is ok if you play games ..but upgrade to a real sound card that offers much more than just games playing so after re reading reviews on here decided to purchase this item...which is very hard to find right now...lol i hope it will be as good (fingers crossed) as said in this forum .if anyone is still after one of these i finally found my one here...eBay My World - a1computermedia 
 please keep the reviews comming


----------



## ROBSCIX

Glad you enjoy them. Be patient, this card is worth the wait.


----------



## oqvist

Someone wanted to know how they fair against the Keces. The fairest comparison I found is lineout to my Slee Solo. Since I then could use not just the K701 Very handy with a switch so you instantly can switch input from Essence ST or Keces DAC.

 The biggest difference is really the treble... The treble roll off on the Essence make it a lot darker. I am not really hundred percent sure veiled is the right word??. And that don´t do to well on the Pro 900 which is slightly on the warm side already. The Keces also have ever so slightly less bass emphasis but not much. It´s a bit tighter anyway. K701 is brighter so it´s harder to choose between output 1 and 2 there. Though most of the time I do go for the full treble but I get lost in music in both of them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 

 The best combo I have is surely Keces Dac/Pro 900. Also suits my speakers best but they both output extremely clean sound. Not at all impossible that opamp switching could change my opinion. Hopefully I will get my new Pro 900 cable so I can listen to that from the headphone output as well.


----------



## oqvist

Okay the comparison made on the line out to the Slee Solo does the Essence ST no good. I will soon have an army of German Maestro headphones to try out so I get some more references. Hopefully the new pro 900 cable as well. But yes headphone out does make the music more alive on the K701 for some reason. As mentioned the only headphone I can use the headphone output on 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Listen to pink floyds pulse out of the line out and Slee Solo there is nothing there... Hard to explain. Running through headphone it opens up the soundstage compared to the Slee Solo and a lot more start to happen all around the place. And yes perhaps a bit more bass. I tried to volume match but it´s not that easy when you have two volume knobs you need to balance. 

 Will probably use some pink noise sample later on when I am going to be comparing them for real


----------



## knopfler78

Hello to everyone.after i posted my rig photos i thought i should make a real post this time.well i am using Asus Essence ST for the most part listening through the Ikons and not hd650.I know it might sound crazy but a have a feeling that too much headphone listening will eventually hurt my ears (shoot me now).i have installed the opa637 i bought from the auzentech site back when i bought the prelude in the buffer and 2 LM4562NA in the i/v.That is the same set up i used with stx.well the thing i noticed when listening to st for the first time is that with the "opening" of the soundstage the singers' voices opened up too in an unnatural way and they are not spot on.apart from that 
 the differences between the 2 asus cards is more noticable than switching from the prelude to the stx.i hope asus doesn't release another card soon i already feel light in my wallet.


----------



## oqvist

Got my 49720NAs today though will wait some days before I try them out? Is there any point in not just running 49720NAs in all three slots?

 Otherwise that jitter clock is it in use if you run spdif out to an external DAC?


----------



## ROBSCIX

The LM4562NA in the buffer slot is the same chip as the LME49720. If you change the I/V opamps to the LME49720NA, then you are basically running 3 LME49720/LM4562NA.

 Usually using three of the same opamps in such circuit positions is frowned upon as it can compound the negative aspect of the opamp.
 Consider, if you use some opamps for the I/V that has say tubby bass, then you use the same opamp for the buffer.. This aspect of tubby bass will be highlighted.

 The I/V opamps are responsible for most of the sound signature. You can use the buffer to highlight or hinder certain aspect which you like or don't like.
 There is really no hard and fast rules, you can use 3 of the same type but it really depends on the opamps but you get the idea.

 Enjoy your new opamps


----------



## leeperry

BTW, even the Forte 7.1 has machined op-amp sockets : Auzentech X-fi Forte 7.1 Soundcard review | test

 why not the ST? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 bw-tech(the german shop I bought it from) was well aware that I was sending back the card for replacement, they even had new cards in stock on wednesday...but they sold them out and didn't keep one for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so I'm back-ordered until mid-august....all that because the Chinese factory put a lousy oxydated DIP8 socket on my card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, I'm using the mobo audio chip now...so I'll very much enjoy the ST when I'll get a new one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 in the meantime I'm tempted to order the Forte 7.1 from a french shop(w/ a return policy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), at least it's got bit-perfect ASIO drivers and a discrete HP amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 too bad it's got lousy JRC4580's all over the place...


----------



## dwk

For any Linux folks out there, the Asus entry in the Alsa matrix has some promising news - it suggests that support for the ST is coming in the next release - 1.0.21, although there is no indication as to when that may be.

Matrix:Vendor-Asus - AlsaProject


----------



## leeperry

I hope the HP out gain will be switchable, coz it sounds dull at the lowest setting and distorted at the highest(tested on DT770/cd3k/dx1k).


----------



## genclaymore

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Got my 49720NAs today though will wait some days before I try them out? Is there any point in not just running 49720NAs in all three slots?

 Otherwise that jitter clock is it in use if you run spdif out to an external DAC?_

 

See how it sound to you, because I ran OPA2277PA's in all 3 slots at one time and enjoyed it as my Favorite setup.


----------



## cfrank

finally got my essence st yesterday ..so far gotta admit for games this thing is not as good as my fatal1ty card you can really tell the differance between the 2 gaming wise..... as for music, so far they seem the same...but i am using 2.1 T.H.X. speakers with the sub woofer..sounds ok but so far switching between the 2 cards and playing cds..and checking you tube music videos..they seem to sound the same..could just be me.. downloading the new patch now , maybe will make a improvement.


----------



## leeperry

switch the op-amps, the stock ones are junk.

 I didn't hear much difference between my Audiophile USB > STX at first, and that's with some pretty resolving headphones....the LM4562(albeit not perfect coz the bass is flabby) changed the whole story


----------



## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_switch the op-amps, the stock ones are junk._

 

Sensationalist claims like this don't help anyone. The stock op-amps are far from junk. In fact, reading a lot of comments from people all over the STX/STX OP-AMP thread you find that people learn a new appreciation for the stock setup vs most other aftermarket setups, as they find that whatever tried wasn't QUITE as good all around as the stock so they go back to stock. 

 So no, they are far from junk.


----------



## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cfrank* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_finally got my essence st yesterday ..so far gotta admit for games this thing is not as good as my fatal1ty card you can really tell the differance between the 2 gaming wise..... as for music, so far they seem the same...but i am using 2.1 T.H.X. speakers with the sub woofer..sounds ok but so far switching between the 2 cards and playing cds..and checking you tube music videos..they seem to sound the same..could just be me.. downloading the new patch now , maybe will make a improvement._

 

just because they're THX 'rated' doesn't mean they're particularly good. 

 nevertheless, listen to your favorite album once completely through with one card and then completely with the other. If you still find that there's no difference between them then return the STX if you can.

 Everyone's equipment and most importantly ears/sense of hearing are not the same. Use this as an opportunity to save yourself a lot of money


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no, they are far from junk._

 

good point, they're not junk. they're plain junk! holding the card's true potential as you wouldn't believe...w/ ugly distorted trebles 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anything sounds better than these 2114D, even the 4562! or the LT1358 or the 49720HA, blablabla....anyone owning these cards should order a bunch of (free) samples and see what fits to *him* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 then the Essence cards turn from "OK-ish" to "most impressive"


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sensationalist claims like this don't help anyone. The stock op-amps are far from junk. In fact, reading a lot of comments from people all over the STX/STX OP-AMP thread you find that people learn a new appreciation for the stock setup vs most other aftermarket setups, as they find that whatever tried wasn't QUITE as good all around as the stock so they go back to stock. 

 So no, they are far from junk._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just because they're THX 'rated' doesn't mean they're particularly good. 

 nevertheless, listen to your favorite album once completely through with one card and then completely with the other. If you still find that there's no difference between them then return the STX if you can.

 Everyone's equipment and most importantly ears/sense of hearing are not the same. Use this as an opportunity to save yourself a lot of money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I agree on both accounts. Also, the OP (cfrank) certainly doesn't have gear revealing enough to tell the two soundcards apart. That and he seems to be new to audiophilia so I wouldn't expect him to have trained ears from the outset.


----------



## leeperry

the guy I sold my STX to(w/ the stock op-amps) loves it as it is! he only listens to rock mp3's, though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if you want more transparency, you need better HP/speakers and more audiophile op-amps...that was my point.

 the 4562 is a very good starting point to unleash the Essence power....if you feel need be


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cfrank* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_finally got my essence st yesterday ..so far gotta admit for games this thing is not as good as my fatal1ty card you can really tell the differance between the 2 gaming wise..... as for music, so far they seem the same...but i am using 2.1 T.H.X. speakers with the sub woofer..sounds ok but so far switching between the 2 cards and playing cds..and checking you tube music videos..they seem to sound the same..could just be me.. downloading the new patch now , maybe will make a improvement._

 

What model of speakers are you using?


----------



## macrog

I had an X-Fi Elite Pro before I got my Xonar D2 then D2X then STX. Even the D2 sounded way better to me than the X-Fi. You have got it on the Hi-Fi preset I hope ? I have always run my HTPC through a reasonably high end stereo setup Linn preamp 4x linn mono poweramps and monitor audio pl300 speakers. I do use other sources such as wadia, cambridge 840c, Dacmagic and a hifidelio.

 Perhaps it just needs running in ?


----------



## genclaymore

Speakers and headphones play a important role too, because you can have the sound card and run them thru cheap speakers and dont get there full sound. Some people dont realize that.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Running a high quality PC soundcard on a cheap set of Logitech or other cheap speakers is seriously going to limit the sound quality your going to hear.


----------



## cfrank

LOL ok to start yes i guess i am new to this sound card , perfect audio bit.. so yes maybe like i said before could just be me. i have been trying them out again today ..still cant tell the differance to be honest ..except for games..though like people are saying speakers make a big differance. i currently use Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 THX Certified Computer Speaker System ..not too bad and i have a altec lansing n.x.t sound bar i plan to try hook it up 2..maybe see a quality differance then. i dont plan on returning the card i can only imagine it takes a while to notice the differances between the two cards and apprecate them..if nothing else i am still gald i have the card..


----------



## Bojamijams

Klipsch makes good speakers.. I don't know about that particular one but I know the company's rep

 What bitrate is your source? If its all 128kbps MP3 then you most definetly will not hear a difference. STX may even make it sound worse. If you got some 256kbps and higher MP3 or even better, lossless, then do a listen with those. 

 And listen to a whole album you love (your #1 fave) completely with one card and then with the other. Changing halfway between a song or even just doing one song isn't enough to appreciate the subtle differences.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Your speakers and source material are very important.


----------



## ZeNmAc

Is the ST really that much better than the STX? I'm about to order parts for a new computer. I was going to get a STX, but after reading this thread is it really worth it to wait for the ST? Is it even being sold in the US yet?

 I'm just trying to figure out if it is better, and if its worth being stuck with a pci sound card in the dead center of my slots (eventually between cards in crossfire) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## IINOPP

when is this thing going to be released?
 im in australia too; ill probably have to wait longer.


----------



## thoppa

I got mine last week. HK$1350 = US$175. I had the STX before but I had issues with it and returned it. 

 I've upgraded the op amps to AD8620BR - not cheap but almost ideal for his card IMO. Note the BR is higher spec than the AR so it costs quite a bit more. Perhaps not worth the extra. 

 I'm going to look into upgrading some of the caps in the buffer stage and get better op amp sockets fitted to get the best from the op amps.

 I'm using an independent power supply for the card. I wanted to use a linear regulated design but there isn't space in my PC so it is SMPS with high-quality caps (Phillips etc).

AD8620BR datasheet pdf datenblatt - Analog Devices - Precision, Very Low Noise, Low Input Bias Current, Wide Bandwidth JFET Operational Amplifier ::: ALLDATASHEET :::

 The ST powers HD650s quite comfortably.

 The jitter-reduction circuit seems to be effective ( I listen to uncompressed CD files) and the sound is quite a bit more detailed than the STX. 

 I've tried various sample rates, (44, 96, 192) and both 16-bit and 24-bit settings (in the ASIO driver, not the main driver interface). They have a limited effect; wider sound, more distant vocal, 'smoother' highs. I think this is because the AV100 chip isn't that good at upsampling and the driver still doesn't allow bit perfect playback. 

 The jitter reduction chip helps to smooth high frequency detail and give the overall presentation more definition and space but, IMO, it isn't remotely comparable to dedicated upsampling chips like the AD1896, or ultra-low jitter clocking like a Tent labs XO. But for a sound card, it's great value and I have no hesitation recommending it. Don't get this card if you want good upsampling though !

 I think it's definitely better than the STX, although I think for most people there's no reason to switch if you're happy with your STX. Tough decision really. 

 One odd thing I noticed was the balance wasn't exactly centred in the driver when I first started it up. It looked like it was just off centre to the left by the smallest possible amount. Maybe it was my imagination. Anybody else see this ? Do I need glasses ?


----------



## ablaze

thoppa, any chance you'd be able to purchase it for me and ship it to Singapore? anybody found any place to order it for a good price? my searches are turning up short. argh.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I don't mind doing this but you won't have a warranty - HK has its own warranty system and they don't apply internationally.

 Add in the cost of shipping (recorded delivery), Paypal fee, and my cost of petrol and you're looking at around HK$1,600 or more. 

 Maybe I should put on one Ebay ?

 Tom


----------



## cfrank

Just letting you know.. i found out why my asus essence st wasnt sounding to great the driver wasnt running correctly on my pc ..it worked but no presets was working or hifi or music presets were not working..i didnt really mess with them too much until today..but anyway unistalled my drivers and reinstalled them and now the sound card is working perfectly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .glad i didnt give up on it..not sure why drivers wasnt working correctly when the asus console was loading and running, it seemed ok but anyway yes the sound is better than my fatal1ty..very pleased with the differance in sound, games still not so great but who cares 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .Thanks for the tips on getting this thing running correctly. And yes its worth buying one from europe even if its a bit more expensive than you would normally pay...if you have good equipment you wont regret it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

@thoppa, yes I have noticed that little blip in the sliders. IIRC, it is a common glitch in GUI's among the Xonar cards. The balance slider even though dead center in level -it looks like it is pushed left slighty.
 Also, if you want bit perfect playback you set the sample rate in the drivers. They allow bit perfect playback but they do not have auto sample rate adjustment.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I am not convinced that the card is bit perfect for 44.1Khz because I think it might be automatically upsampling - I think selecting 44.1 simply means the SPDIF output from the AV100 (or is it 200...?) is set to 44.1, so that is fed into the DAC. I don't think it is passing through in a bit perfect way. Have you got any data or datasheets or whatever that can confirm what the architecture of AV chip is and how it processes signals ? 

 It's good they added the bit depth to the ASIO settings, and they had a good stab at the SVN too but it still boosts background noise and quiet passages too much. 

 They haven't fixed the problem I have with multiple bit rate files in Foobar - a 96/24 file will play fine but if the next file in the list is different then it is played at the wrong speed; over twice the speed = hello chipmunks ! Same with playing 44.1 - no problem - but if the next file is 96, then again, wrong speed. Or should I say wwwrrrrrrrroooooooooooooonnnnngggggggg ssssssssppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddddd. Just clicking stop and play and the file is fine again. 

 Hey ho. It's still a great card for the money.


----------



## ChinaJay

Hi Thoppa,

 I live in Beijing and travel often to Shenzhen/Shekou. Can you tell me where you bought your ST in Hong Kong? 

 Thanks alot!

 Jay


----------



## thoppa

There are several computer centres in Hong Kong so it's easiest just to go to the one that is closest. I go to a place called the Golden Centre in Sham Shui Po. It's a labyrinth of three floors and it can be quite confusing because the entrances to the top floor are outside, not inside. You can't go from the middle floor to the top floor. The bottom floor is actually a few feet underground too. Weird. Anyway, on the bottom floor in the northeast corner is a 'large' shop called Capital Computers. They have stock today at HK$1390. On the top floor, halfway along on the eastern side of the building is another 'large' shop called Centralfield. This place just ran out of stock but they had them for HK$1350.

 Happy shopping !


----------



## leeperry

the only way to be 100% sure that it's bit-perfect is w/ a DTSCD or HDCD through a S/PDIF amp...if it is, the amp should recognize the DTS/HDCD streams.

 otherwise, we simply cannot be sure...especially considering how poorly written the C-Media drivers are 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I was promised a while ago that some proper bit-perfect drivers would show up one day...so cross your fingers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you can also try to whine to the Asus support, the more ppl whining the sooner it'd happen


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 I am not convinced that the card is bit perfect for 44.1Khz because I think it might be automatically upsampling - I think selecting 44.1 simply means the SPDIF output from the AV100 (or is it 200...?) is set to 44.1, so that is fed into the DAC. I don't think it is passing through in a bit perfect way. Have you got any data or datasheets or whatever that can confirm what the architecture of AV chip is and how it processes signals ? 

 It's good they added the bit depth to the ASIO settings, and they had a good stab at the SVN too but it still boosts background noise and quiet passages too much. 

 They haven't fixed the problem I have with multiple bit rate files in Foobar - a 96/24 file will play fine but if the next file in the list is different then it is played at the wrong speed; over twice the speed = hello chipmunks ! Same with playing 44.1 - no problem - but if the next file is 96, then again, wrong speed. Or should I say wwwrrrrrrrroooooooooooooonnnnngggggggg ssssssssppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddddd. Just clicking stop and play and the file is fine again. 

 Hey ho. It's still a great card for the money._

 

All the information I have says the clock setting in the drivers sets the master clock rate for the card. That would be internal as well as output for S/PDIF. The two are interconnected....
 The manual also would state as much IIRC.
 Set the driver for the bit rate you want....Bit perfect.
 A bit inconvient for some but the card is still bit perfect none the less.


----------



## leeperry

the manual also advises to plug your HP to the line-out....so I wouldn't put my money on what the manual says.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the manual also advises to plug your HP to the line-out....so I wouldn't put my money on what the manual says._

 

..Why? the line out has the best sound quality measured between the two outputs and if you don't need amplification you can use the line out.


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Thoppa, Here is some information from the ST manual.


*Sample Rate*

 The sample rate determines the number of audio samples per second that the Digital-to-Analog Converters (DAC) and S/PDIF digital interface will output. The Xonar Essence ST card can support sample rates up to 192KHz (44.1K, 48K, 96K, 192KHz). Usually audio CDs and MP3 files are 44.1KHz; DVD-Video uses 48KHz;DVD-Audio or other HD media may contain 96KHz or 192KHz high-definition audio content. Select the corresponding sample rate for your playback sources to get the best audio fidelity. Even if your setting differs from the audio source’s sample rate, the Xonar Essence ST engine will do super high fidelity sample-rate-conversion with a double floating-point filter, which can reduce total harmonic distortion
 (THD+N) by -140dB.

 Hope that helps.


----------



## leeperry

coz the whole point of this card is the HP amp, and most headphones will just sound better on the HP amp(w/ the mid gain setting). a lineout level is not quite up to par w/ driving phones properly IMHO.

 that's commercial blabla about resampling, they should be bit-perfect...even Creative does it! but I'm having a deja-vu I think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Asus is well aware of the issue, and promised to deliver...one day.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_coz the whole point of this card is the HP amp, and most headphones will just sound better on the HP amp(w/ the mid gain setting). a lineout level is not quite up to par w/ driving phones properly IMHO.

 that's commercial blabla about resampling, they should be bit-perfect...even Creative does it! but I'm having a deja-vu I think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Asus is well aware of the issue, and promised to deliver...one day._

 

The whole point of this card is the HP amp, according to who? This card also offers high grade stereo sound with upgrade to 7.1. I would say the scope of this card and it's intended uses are a bit wider then your narrow view of it.
 Most headphones, you have tested them have you?
 Some headphone require amplification beyond what a line level signal can provide and some operate just fine without extra amplification.
 My personal headphones work fine either way although for sound quality I prefer the line out.
 I am not talking about resampling information at the bottom, I am talking about the information at the top as I was responding to another that was a bit unsure about what the setting is for.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I don't have any DTS coded files. Maybe I can try a DVD at some point, but I don't have an AV receiver either....um.

 I started reading up about the CMI-8788 and 8787 and looked at the datasheets. It's impossible to know for sure because it seems the chip can be programmed by Asus/CMI with different configurations but no information is given about this, just that the eeprom can be used to store configurations and settings. Hmmm. Anybody out there who knows about this kind of stuff ? I've edited firmware in things like my Windows Mobile 6 phone but I wouldn't know where to start with AV chip firmware.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.cmedia.com.tw/pdf/PCI/Oxy...eet+Rev1.0.pdf

CMI8788 pdf, CMI8788 description, CMI8788 datasheets, CMI8788 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::

 However, it mentions that it has DIO (input and output on the same connection), and the block diagram shows it can do duplex processing at 192/24 too. The datsheet says it has 32-bit PCM processing and a selectable sampling frequency up to 192Khz. That's pretty impressive because it's a large data rate. 

 It would make sense to an engineer to use the driver to set the sampling frequency (SF) of everything that requires or can use and would benefit from a manual setting. Anything that can be automatically detected and set would not be controlled by the driver but by the circuits and internal programming. This simplifies the driver and makes life 'easier' for the consumer. Despite Asus marketing pitching the card at audiophiles, I suspect the Asus engineers know they need to make the performance idiot-proof and get it working, not add lots of extra bells and whistles. The driver is complicated enough already with all the karaoke, dolby, etc, stuff. 

 The input is clocked when a signal starts - the chip detects if the source is 44, 48, 96 etc, but it doesn't do it continuously on-the-fly which is why I have the speeded up/slowed down problem above. I have to stop and re-start the signal so the receiver can re-clock.

 One thing I know is that many digital signal receiver chips don't automatically detect bit-depth and they use a default bit-depth, usually 24 bits these days but 16 was the most common just a couple of years ago. I have an MD player (yeah, I know....haha) that is 20 bit. So Asus have made a step forward by adding selectable bit-depth in the ASIO driver. But note that the datasheet sheets says the chip uses 32 bit PCM. Does the ASIO driver set this ? I think not, because the ASIO driver doesn't have a 32 bit setting because source material is never 32 bit. ASIO drivers are normally there to deliver the sound from software to the PCI input without going through anything else. So 32 bit is the default bit depth of the chip and this is fixed - this indicates to me that the signal processing is NOT bit perfect. 

 It would also seem highly likely that the chip would use the maximum data rate it can handle for all its DSP magic, because this would introduce the least amount of signal deterioration. This is 192/32.

 The general description also says, "The 12 output channels are composed of 3 playback DMA’ s, which are multi-channel DMA (32 bits, 8 channels, 192k), S/PDIF DMA (32 bits, 2 channels, 192k), and front panel 
 DMA (16 bits, 2 channels, 48k). The 8 input channels are spread across 3 recording DMA’ s (32 bits, 192k) - recording A, B, and C DMA’ s."

 It seems to be saying that it uses 192/32 but perhaps those numbers are simply maximums. Again, I don't think so, because of the 48/16 front output.

 Anyway, I don't doubt the chip uses double-floating doodahs - the issue is whether it always uses them, and in either case, how do I get the best sound out this card ? 

 Anyway, after a while, I got to the zen moment - does it matter if I like the sound ?


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Thoppa, Here is some information from the ST manual.


*Sample Rate*

 The sample rate determines the number of audio samples per second that the Digital-to-Analog Converters (DAC) and S/PDIF digital interface will output. ...... Even if your setting differs from the audio source’s sample rate, the Xonar Essence ST engine will do super high fidelity sample-rate-conversion with a double floating-point filter, which can reduce total harmonic distortion
 (THD+N) by -140dB.

 Hope that helps._

 

Hi, 

 Thanks for that.

 It says the driver SF setting controls the output of the AV chip that is sent to the DAC and spdif outputs. It doesn't confirm your assumption that either the SF setting or the ASIO bit depth setting affect the internal DSP. 

 It also says that it automatically does SRC if the signal input frequency doesn't match the selected output frequency. I already know it doesn't do this perfectly because of my playback issues. It doesn't say if it automatically does or doesn't do SRC for the internal DSP. How do you know that it doesn't automatically SRC the input to 192/32 and then SRC it back again to 44/48/96/192 ? And what about bit depth ? It never even mentions this. 

 I think you have assumed this chip is bit-perfect all the way through. I can see why - if it automatically SRCs the input for the internal DSP, then the only reason to have a selectable output would be to ensure the SPDIF output is compatible with an external DAC, AV receiver etc. Otherwise, there's no reason not leave everything set at 192/24 because it has already been SRC'd. So it makes more sense that it is bit-perfect from that point of view, until I remember (if I've remembered correctly...) the first driver didn't have a bit-depth setting but did have SF setting, so it was almost certainly using 24 or 32 bit ? 

 I live to learn so if you know something else, please share. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe we should discuss the need for accurate bit-depth settings ? I don't see a great need myself, but that's likely a little knowledge and great deal of ignorance !


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Thoppa, I was not making an assumption and I am perfectly clear on how the card operates.
 When you set the sample rate in the drivers, that is what sample rate everything operates on for playback. Meaning, if you play 16/44.1 audio and set the sample rate to 16/44.1 you get bit perfect playback all the way through the card including the AV100/200 chips. 

 Hope this helps.


----------



## iamthecheese

Any idea when the ST will be available for purchase in the states?


----------



## ipooptoomuch

Does anybody know when this is going to be released? I searched all over the internet and came up with nothing.


----------



## leeperry

it's already a damn miracle to find it in Europe, so your best option is ordering it from HK


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ipooptoomuch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anybody know when this is going to be released? I searched all over the internet and came up with nothing._

 

They have been released in various places, although it would seem they are coming out very slowly.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 ROB - I'm sorry but if you don't have evidence, you have assumptions. I'm not posting here to start a confrontation and I don't care either way. What I am trying to do is identify fact from opinion.

 Sorry, but your last post doesn't help at all. It just seems to be your opinion stated as fact; and bit-perfect means the bit-depth is also correct, not just the sample frequency, as I'm sure you know.

 I can't see anywhere that Asus themselves claim this card/driver is bit-perfect. Leeperry above says he contacted Asus and they promised to create a bit-perfect setting. It shows Asus themselves don't think the card is bit-perfect. Why do you think it is ? 

 The datasheet quite clearly states the chip uses a 32 bit PCM system. That is a fact, no ? Floating 32 bit systems are quite common and they pad the 16 and 24 bit signals with extra zeros to create headroom for DSP. It will then truncate the wordlength to 16 or 24 bits for output and probably employs a dithering algorithm to avoid artefacts in the 'noise' of low level signals. This is an extremely common method that anyone who has used professional digital recording/re-mastering systems is well aware of. It isn't bit-perfect but it doesn't matter either, especially if the output wordlength is 24 bits. A 16 bit output will need dithering but if it is done well....

Harmony Central - Much Ado About Dithering

 The reason I asked if anyone knows about AV chip firmware, was because they might be able to say if it possible to re-program the chip to use a different default wordlength for its DSP instead of 32 bit PCM. I don't know if this is possible, or even desirable.

 If you read the Asus manual carefully, as you previously quoted, "The sample rate determines the number of audio samples per second that the Digital-to-Analog Converters (DAC) and S/PDIF digital interface will output." 

 OUTPUT. Output does not mean internal DSP or input. It also shows the manual can't really be tusted. DACs obviously don't output a digital signal but that's what the sentence says. "The sample rate determines the number of audio samples per second that the Digital-to-Analog Converters (DAC)....will output." 

 Later in the poorly written manual, page 41 under troubleshooting,
 "I found no sound effects when playing 96K or 192KHz sound sources.
 • Currently Xonar Essence ST effects including Dolby supports common 
 44.1K, 48KHz sound sources processing and provides high-defnition 
 audio (96K/192KHz) in hi-fdelity playback. This is also usually the 
 behavior that professional audiophiles and musicians prefer.
 • If you still want to have the effects, you can use some editing software 
 such as Ableton Live, Cakewalk, CoolEdit, or Soundforge to convert the 
 sounds into 48KHz fles.
 3. Note that the frequency meter on Xonar Essence ST Audio Center panel will 
 not take effect either when the playback source is 96KHz or 192KHz sample 
 rate to prevent any processing distortion."

 This shows that the sampling frequency selected in the driver does not override the internal programming of the chip. The chip's firmware has been written so it is not possible to SRC 96 or 192 signals to 44.1 or 48, which is a good thing ! But it also shows that the driver setting doesn't set the internal SF as you say it does. There are other factors at work.

 It's a great card but I still don't see any facts to support bit-perfect status, and at least one fact to show it isn't.

 Cheers,

 Tom


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Thoppa, I was not making an assumption and I am perfectly clear on how the card operates.
 When you set the sample rate in the drivers, that is what sample rate everything operates on for playback. Meaning, if you play 16/44.1 audio and set the sample rate to 16/44.1 you get bit perfect playback all the way through the card including the AV100/200 chips. 

 Hope this helps._


----------



## leeperry

it does SRC 96/192, it just doesn't apply DSP on top of it.

 if I play 96 w/ 44.1 or 48 selected in the drivers, I get HUGE background noise.

 if I play 192, I get huge background...whatever I select in the drivers. this card CANNOT play 192 KHz stuff on XP SP3 w/ the latest drivers.

 Asus reads this thread anyway, so the more ppl whining...the more we're prone to finally see bit-perfect drivers!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 ROB - I'm sorry but if you don't have evidence, you have assumptions. I'm not posting here to start a confrontation and I don't care either way. What I am trying to do is identify fact from opinion._

 

You can be sure any information I post and state as fact has been verified with the company. Being a reviewer, I have high level contacts in most soundcards companies and I can contact them usually any time about anything related to their products. If you have doubt, please by all means send them an email and verify the information for yourself. I explained the information as it was explained to me and if I am unsure about information I will say so.

 As for LeePerry, he seems to have a misunderstanding in terminology. The drivers are bit perfect however, they do not have an auto sample rate adjustment. There is a big difference betwee the two.


----------



## thoppa

I don't understand your reply. Are you saying the datasheet is wrong and your contact is right ? 

 I didn't question your integrity - this is your response to the information I have found out. I thought you had made a wrong assumption and said so.

 But it seems you think I'm saying someone is twisting your arm to say it's bit-perfect. Are they ? Is that what happens when you become a reviewer ?

 Well, never mind. As I said, I'm not here to have an argument. I'm just trying to share and discover information.

 Cheers,

 Tom 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can be sure any information I post and state as fact has been verified with the company. Being a reviewer, I have high level contacts in most soundcards companies and I can contact them usually any time about anything related to their products. If you have doubt, please by all means send them an email and verify the information for yourself. I try and be helpful and you question my integrity?

 As for LeePerry, he seems to have a misunderstanding in terminology. The drivers are bit perfect however, they do not have a auto sample rate adjustment. There is a big difference betwee the two._


----------



## ear8dmg

ROB I've been a regular reader of Guru3D's soundcard reviews for the last few years. I genrally regard it as my 'reference' review site. 

 One thing that Brann sometimes used to include in his listening tests was subjective comparisons with cards regarded as competion throughout. For example the Prelude review had A/B tests agains the X-Meridian. The Xonar D2 had A/B tests agains the Prelude. More recently the reviews have tended to focus more on just the card being reviewed. Do you think these kinds of comparison comments could be incorporated again? Consumer soundcards are generally very good these days and it's only through direct comparison that we can really tell one from the other.

 For gaming, it would be nice to have a specific X-fi model included for a native EAX listening reference. The Forte seems like the obvious choice for comparison. I appreciate that the STX is the main comparison card here but people don't always cross reference reviews.

 What happened to Brann by the way? Is he still with you?


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it does SRC 96/192, it just doesn't apply DSP on top of it.

 if I play 96 w/ 44.1 or 48 selected in the drivers, I get HUGE background noise.

 if I play 192, I get huge background...whatever I select in the drivers. this card CANNOT play 192 KHz stuff on XP SP3 w/ the latest drivers.

 Asus reads this thread anyway, so the more ppl whining...the more we're prone to finally see bit-perfect drivers!_

 

Thanks for that. I don't have any 192 files but I'll try out the 96/24 files to see if I can get what you are getting.....

 I agree - the drivers don't seem to have a bit perfect setting so maybe if we can get people like Robscix to quit saying they are, we'll get more people asking Asus to add this.

 I would love to find out if true bit-perfect playback actually has much effect on the sound quality ! 

 cheers,

 Tom


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't understand your reply. Are you saying the datasheet is wrong and your contact is right ? 

 I didn't question your integrity - this is your response to the information I have found out. I thought you had made a wrong assumption and said so.

 But it seems you think I'm saying someone is twisting your arm to say it's bit-perfect. Are they ? Is that what happens when you become a reviewer ?

 Well, never mind. As I said, I'm not here to have an argument. I'm just trying to share and discover information.

 Cheers,

 Tom_

 

From now on, do your own research. I tried to offer some information I had.
 Information as I understood it from the designers. Take it or leave it.
 If your going to start trolling and being rude, I won't offer information to you ever again.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ear8dmg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ROB I've been a regular reader of Guru3D's soundcard reviews for the last few years. I genrally regard it as my 'reference' review site. 

 One thing that Brann sometimes used to include in his listening tests was subjective comparisons with cards regarded as competion throughout. For example the Prelude review had A/B tests agains the X-Meridian. The Xonar D2 had A/B tests agains the Prelude. More recently the reviews have tended to focus more on just the card being reviewed. Do you think these kinds of comparison comments could be incorporated again? Consumer soundcards are generally very good these days and it's only through direct comparison that we can really tell one from the other.

 For gaming, it would be nice to have a specific X-fi model included for a native EAX listening reference. The Forte seems like the obvious choice for comparison. I appreciate that the STX is the main comparison card here but people don't always cross reference reviews.

 What happened to Brann by the way? Is he still with you?_

 

Yes, Brann is still kicking around
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have considered side by side comparisons with some of the "older" cards...maybe I will have to revisit that idea.
 I guess it would just be the difference between our reviewing styles. As for gaming, when I am reviewing a card with say GX drivers. I usually compare it with a card with true EAX/openAL to note differences in quality noted for the gamers in the crowd. -I usually might not note the card used though. I have both Forte and Prelude for gaming comparisons.
 I appreciate the suggestions and I will keep them in mind.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_someone is twisting your arm to say it's bit-perfect. Are they ? Is that what happens when you become a reviewer ?_

 

that's exactly the feeling I have when discussing the matter w/ Rob....so I quit doing it.

 Asus reads this thread on a daily basis, and they offer free reviews cards...if you get my drift 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm in contact w/ the Xonar Product Manager(the same guy Rob is in contact w/), and he promised me he would release 100% bit-matched/bit-perfect drivers anytime soon.

 let the ppl know about the pesky drivers, whine to the Asus support. this cards deserves 100% bit-perfect drivers, not some crappy resampling gamers drivers w/ funky DSP's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 resampling ASIO and KS is a big NO-NO! even Creative offers bit-matched drivers through ASIO, What not Asus? manually switching the hardware samplerate is getting on my friggin' nerves 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The drivers are bit perfect however, they do not have an auto sample rate adjustment. There is a big difference betwee the two._

 

until it's been proven w/ a DTS-CD or HDCD, allow us to doubt it!


----------



## genclaymore

Its there but as rob says it dont do it automatic because I dont have your issues when I forget to set it to what I playing. I have even tried what you did, and I dont get background noises at all.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *genclaymore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its there but as rob says it dont do it automatic because I dont have your issues when I forget to set it to what I playing. I have even tried what you did, and I dont get background noises at all._

 

well it's simple.

 KS in foobar on XP SP3 :

 -24/96 FLAC w/ 44.1 or 48KHz in the drivers = heavy background noise.

 -24/192 FLAC w/ whatever set in the drivers = heavy background noise.

 so I spend my life switching between 44.1/48/96 depending on whether I listen to CDDA/DVD or DVD-A

 God, are we back in the 80's? even Creative supports automatically bit-match playback through ASIO....the whole point of ASIO is to be bit-perfect in the first place, C-Media needs to realize that.

 and I guess we're not bound to see bit-matched drivers anytime as soon, as this seems to be a design flaw in the C-Media drivers...Asus has simply built an ugly GUI on top of these 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 hopefully when the C-Media drivers will finally offer automatically bit-matched ASIO/KS/WASAPI drivers, we'll be able to close that ugly "Asus Audio Center"...as it won't be needed anymore


----------



## Bojamijams

People, let's try to have a discussion without attacking one another. People disagree all the time, there's no need to make it personal.


----------



## leeperry

the point of the story is that the ST offers a mind blowing value for the price! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but it's a new product, Asus is also rather new in the sound card business....it simply needs a bit of polishing on the software side, so its most nitpicking users could also reach Zion! that's all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been a Reclock betatester since day 1, and I don't want my movies to be resampled TWICE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 most manufacturers like M-Audio and Creative offer bit-matched drivers >> Asus knows about it, and promised to deliver such drivers anytime soon...so let's start the waiting game 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS:* it's just a damn shame that they put crappy DIP8 sockets, when even Auzentech uses gold plated machined sockets


----------



## RicHSAD

The sooner the better .. The ST/X are in dire need of a driver update.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that's exactly the feeling I have when discussing the matter w/ Rob....so I quit doing it.

 Asus reads this thread on a daily basis, and they offer free reviews cards...if you get my drift 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Such is common for any review site and reviewer and I recommend cards from every source based on the user. Trying to attack my credibility because my opinion differs from yours is just showing what a troll you are. Nothing more. Grow up.
 I come here to help and answer questions, I offer information on many cards and subjects. Don't like my post's don't read them.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm in contact w/ the Xonar Product Manager(the same guy Rob is in contact w/), and he promised me he would release 100% bit-matched/bit-perfect drivers anytime soon._

 

Actually you have zero idea who I talk with, not that it is your business but I have about 5 contact within ASUS.
 LOL, As far as your contact with ASUS....it is in a public forum and there for anybody to see. You chased the forum manager around and spammed his box until he finally gave yout he answer "Yes LeePerry, thx for the suggestion this has been on our driver schedule for awhhile"
 Then you continued to follow the guy around more and kept asking "did you read my suggestions, did you? did you? Can I have bit perfect drivers?"

 The extent of your contact is rather amusing and your delusions of grandeur would be funny if they weren't so sad.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_let the ppl know about the pesky drivers, whine to the Asus support. this cards deserves 100% bit-perfect drivers, not some crappy resampling gamers drivers w/ funky DSP's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 resampling ASIO and KS is a big NO-NO! even Creative offers bit-matched drivers through ASIO, What not Asus? manually switching the hardware samplerate is getting on my friggin' nerves





 until it's been proven w/ a DTS-CD or HDCD, allow us to doubt it!_

 

So your saying that setting the sample rate allows bit perfect playback. isn't that what I just said? So we need auto sample rate adjustment....


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People, let's try to have a discussion without attacking one another. People disagree all the time, there's no need to make it personal._

 

Well that is what happen when kid trolls get involved in adult conversation. They cannot discuss with adults without getting upset "I am taking my ball and going home!!"

 I try to offer information and mention information that I have checked and understand to be correct. Am I right 100% of the time? Not even close. I get things wrong just like anybody else but bad information does nobody any good so I do what I can to make sure the information I have is as correct as it can be based on the resources I have at my disposal.


----------



## leeperry

I won't bother reading your posts Rob, no need wasting your time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you're the real pro, it's like you built the card with your own bare hands, it sounds better than any $500 amp(especially on the line out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), it's bit-perfect w/ any material...we got that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and we're a bunch of clueless 13yo trollers of course.

 soon we should get bit-matched drivers, it's all that matters to me


----------



## ROBSCIX

Troll,troll troll.....you keep going don't you?

 Now back to adult conversation:
 You sure it's bit matched or auto sample rate as you seem to keep mixing them up?


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Genclaymore:
 Notice your using OPA827's for I/V? How are they working out for you?


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People, let's try to have a discussion without attacking one another. People disagree all the time, there's no need to make it personal._

 

Yes, that would be nice. So let me be the first to apologise if I have insulted anyone. 

 I tried playing back some 96/24 files - mostly Depeche Mode hi-res recordings, but there's also some Norah Jones, Daniel Powter, Snow Patrol, etc. I'm using the ASIO driver set to 24 bit / 10ms, Foobar 9.6.5. 

 I don't hear any change in the sound through headphones when I change the sample frequency. Regardless of volume, material, etc, the sound doesn't seem to change at all. Background hiss is unaffected. However, the SPDIF output sample frequency changes and my external standalone DAC receives an SRC'd signal. It sounds bad - like it's an MP3 - swirly noise shaping, loss of dynamics, space, definition...yeaurgh. 

 It is possible to use dolby settings, EQ and all the other effects, with the spdif output set to PCM. Dolby digital live cuts the sound completely but playback continues. 

 So for my experience, it seems that 96/24 files are played without internal SRC but external SRC output is available. Alternatively, it could be that the SRC is good enough to convert 96/24 to 192/24 that I can't hear it. There's also noticeably less of click when switching, almost like it isn't switching...almost....um.

 Anyway, playing 44.1 and then setting a higher sample frequency changes the sound very noticeably - it is SRC'd internally and for the external output. 

 I've come to the conclusion that leaving the settings at 24 bit and 96 Khz gives, for me, pleasing results; although there might just be a tiny bit more distortion, high-frequency decay is smoother and the soundstage seems wider. I can't be bothered to keep changing settings.

 I wish there was a 'automatic matching' option in the sample rate drop down menu and this also automatically set the HF to on and the ASIO driver to the incoming bit-depth. What I would call a 'lazy audiophile' setting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think I'm going to start modifying the hardware now. Here's a pic of the power supply I use. The caps are Vishay/Philips BC (nice clean musical signature) and a Rubycon ZA low esr. 






 Maybe we should start a get-the-best-from-your-ST thread ? 

 cheers,

 tom


----------



## thoppa

Can someone clarify what a troll is ? I thought it would be someone who has a Claro Halo XT (etc) who posts on the ST thread about how rubbish the ST is, just to wind people up ? If you own an ST, and post about it here, then surely you can't be a troll ? I own a Nikon and every now and again I read people posting nonsense about Nikon in a Nikon forum, and then I realise they are a Canon troll..... 

 Maybe I'm just a dumb goblin.....


----------



## metalhead140

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I'm going to start modifying the hardware now. Here's a pic of the power supply I use. The caps are Vishay/Philips BC (nice clean musical signature) and a Rubycon ZA low esr. 




_

 

Any more info on this power supply? Where did you source it from?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wish there was a 'automatic matching' option in the sample rate drop down menu and this also automatically set the HF to on and the ASIO driver to the incoming bit-depth. What I would call a 'lazy audiophile' setting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

well, the X-Fi cards have a fixed samplerate, but it's bypassed in ASIO if you check "bit-matched playback" in their drivers.

 the M-Audio cards work the same way, and also on KS/WASAPI. they refuse to SRC ASIO, the drivers will give you a "can't set hardware samplerate" error msg 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 resampling should be left to Windows, its KMixer is well capable of doing SRC. ppl who use ASIO/KS/WASAPI do it to *avoid* SRC in the first place!

 the best soundcard I have ever tried -as far as drivers are concerned- is the Gina24, ******* dreamy drivers I tell you! the Echo Digital soundcards forbid SRC and use an unlocked samplerate :






 it's bit-perfect all the time! anytime, anywhere! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if we could get something like that on the ST, I would have a heart failure I think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and switching the PSU is nice, but did you roll op-amps yet? coz the stock 2114 are pretty lousy.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *metalhead140* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any more info on this power supply? Where did you source it from?_

 

Hello!

 I am also very interested in this PSU!!! 
 Please tell more, where did you buy it?


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *metalhead140* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any more info on this power supply? Where did you source it from?_

 

Hi,

 There is a street in Sham Shui Po in Hong Kong that is an electronics DIY heaven, except it's horribly crowded. It's a bit like the one in Tokyo with lots of little shops selling all sorts of electronic goodies, except cheaper, and dirtier ! So I got this locally - it is 12v/2A, 5V/2A, very low noise, excellent ripple, high switching frequency, etc but the caps were market-average KMG - not really suited for audio. The output resistor also looked like a cheapy so I replaced that with a low noise/low inductance one. The output coils are iron core but I doubt I can easily replace them with air-core because of size considerations. 

 Anyway, there are lots of companies making similar SMPS supplies - you'll find similar psu's in external hard disk cases and things like that.

 Here's an example :

DC 50W 5V 5A&12V 3A Regulated Switching Power Supply on eBay (end time 11-Sep-09 12:58:41 BST)

 and

30 Watt SMPS Power Supply, PIC Projects, +5V 4A +12V 1A on eBay (end time 22-Aug-09 09:26:04 BST)

 Do a search for "power supply 12v 5v"


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 the best soundcard I have ever tried -as far as drivers are concerned- is the Gina24, ******* dreamy drivers I tell you! the Echo Digital soundcards forbid SRC and use an unlocked samplerate :








 it's bit-perfect all the time! anytime, anywhere! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if we could get something like that on the ST, I would have a heart failure I think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and switching the PSU is nice, but did you roll op-amps yet? coz the stock 2114 are pretty lousy._

 

Yes, a driver like that'd be v cool !

 I've rolled quite a lot of op amps - nothing to add to others' comments here - except I think the bass is a little lacking overall and I think this might be because of other hardware components. I'm planning to try some Elna Silmic II as the coupling caps on the I/V stage and the headphone amp. I think the feedback caps around the I/V op amps probably need an upgrade too but they are smt - not easy. 

 I'll get help for that !


----------



## leeperry

hehe, well some so-called "expert"(that modifies Prodigy HD2 cards w/ burson's) told me in PM that the ATX PSU was making the trebles ugly on the ST....

 the bass is fine w/ LT1358IN8's in the I/V, did you try this one? 

 the problem w/ rolling op-amps is that we don't know the I/V gain on this card or the max GBW possible...so it's a major hit & miss


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hehe, well some so-called "expert"(that modifies Prodigy HD2 cards w/ burson's) told me in PM that the ATX PSU was making the trebles ugly on the ST....

 the bass is fine w/ LT1358IN8's in the I/V, did you try this one? 

 the problem w/ rolling op-amps is that we don't know the I/V gain on this card or the max GBW possible...so it's a major hit & miss 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

From my experience with power supplies, I can say that they can make a huge difference. The better the source, the more critical the power becomes. The best ones I've heard are made by Paul Hynes. SMPS are never gonna be that good for audio, but my PSU is better than the one in the case and it only runs the ST so it doesn't suffer noise from fans, etc. But it isn't a huge jump up like a Paul Hynes would be. Besides, I'm sure the card's caps are holding things back. FG are supposed to be audio grade and Nichicon only do one grade better for audio - KZ. 

 The real problem is the physical sizes. Black Gate PK will substitute the 47uf, Black Gate std can do the 22uF, and Elna Silmic II can be mounted from the other side of the card for the 220uF, but the 100uF are proving to be a PITA to find upgrades for.

 Sanyo Oscon work well in digital circuits but I reckon Vishay BC or Nichicon HD would do better in those locations.

 Anyway.......Bursons.....ahwhgahwhgahwhgahwhgahwhg ahwhgahawhg.....( my Homer Simpson impersonation...) . Maybe one day.... 

 I haven't tried those op amps. Damn. Another pair to try...! The best bass I got was from OPA2134. So thanks for the tip !


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From my experience with power supplies, I can say that they can make a huge difference. The better the source, the more critical the power becomes. The best ones I've heard are made by Paul Hynes. SMPS are never gonna be that good for audio, but my PSU is better than the one in the case and it only runs the ST so it doesn't suffer noise from fans, etc. But it isn't a huge jump up like a Paul Hynes would be. Besides, I'm sure the card's caps are holding things back. FG are supposed to be audio grade and Nichicon only do one grade better for audio - KZ. 

 The real problem is the physical sizes. Black Gate PK will substitute the 47uf, Black Gate std can do the 22uF, and Elna Silmic II can be mounted from the other side of the card for the 220uF, but the 100uF are proving to be a PITA to find upgrades for.

 Sanyo Oscon work well in digital circuits but I reckon Vishay BC or Nichicon HD would do better in those locations.

 Anyway.......Bursons.....ahwhgahwhgahwhgahwhgahwhg ahwhgahawhg.....( my Homer Simpson impersonation...) . Maybe one day.... 

 I haven't tried those op amps. Damn. Another pair to try...! The best bass I got was from OPA2134. So thanks for the tip !_

 

Yes you right!!!
 I am looking for a linear regulated PSU!
 Here are some pictures of ripple of some psus! You can imagine what pictures are drawing the swithed ones!




 THIS ARE 1,8 mVRMS (my corsair has 1,5 at 200W)




 THIS ARE 0,25 mVRMS 




 THIS ARE 0,1 mVRMS


----------



## leeperry

and where do you get 0.1 mV PSU's ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the most technical PSU tests I have ever seen were on this french website : Google Translate

 at low loads(20%), the 12V ripple of the Seasonic S12-II-500 is 10 mV...the ATX limit is 50 mV


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway.......Bursons.....ahwhgahwhgahwhgahwhgahwhg ahwhgahawhg.....( my Homer Simpson impersonation...) . Maybe one day.... _

 

There are a few members around that are testing with various discrete opamps. Gworldofspace has been testing with Bursons..IIRC. Other are testing with the Audio-GD discretes. There are even a few guys in this forum working on developing a custom discrete opamp.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and where do you get 0.1 mV PSU's ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the most technical PSU tests I have ever seen were on this french website : Google Translate

 at low loads(20%), the 12V ripple of the Seasonic S12-II-500 is 10 mV...the ATX limit is 50 mV_

 

This is the link:
Power Supply Tests

 there you got one whit less then 0,01 mVRMS !!


----------



## leeperry

well, what did Kingwa say about it? if he can't help us, that might be a major issue to source such a PSU...


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I asked him if he could make a special PSU for essence! I think he has no interest in it.


----------



## leeperry

well, many types of equipment could benefit from a super clean 12V/5V PSU?! PC soundcards will only evolve, and now that Asus has opened the way(and hopefully proven that there is a market for such products), maybe M-Audio and the likes will follow.

 your PSU can output 12V, right? how about an additional one for 5V?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes I am looking around!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Maybe just designing a new one based on the V /I requirements may be a better solution.
 It seems there are PSU everywhere though. You would think one could be sourced that would provide these standard values.

 You should ask around the DIY forum. There are many talented designers around head-fi that could design what you need easily.

 Might be cheaper if you can get the design and group-buy going. PCB are fairly cheap to fabricate these days as I have some being 
 developed right now.
 Some of these guys design super clean precision power supplies for their external DIY amplifiers, Could be another option.


----------



## metalhead140

I'm looking for a suitable linear power supply as well. I could work out a circuit myself if I have to, but to be honest I'd prefer to save the time and just buy a suitable unit. Even just a printed pcb to make life simple would probably provide the motivation I need to do it. I just don't really have the time at the moment to be bothered working it out and laying out the design.

 I'm using the STX at the moment. When the ST becomes available in Australia I'll grab one to replace it. I have the standard opamps fitted currently, but have a pile of opamps on the shelf ready to test from this and the STX thread, and have a number more on the way. Has anyone tried AD797s? 

 GWorlDofSPACE: What opamps have you compared with the Bursons and how have you found them? To be honest, if the Bursons are going to be the best then I'm pretty tempted to just buy them straight up. It's worth the money to me against spending the hours testing different units.

 Has anyone tried doing other modifications to bypass the opamp stages completely?

 I'm using the STX line out of a dedicated HTPC to my stereo. The PC has replaced an older Pioneer CDP for audio. So far the PC sounds a bit better and I am listening to more music, but the highs are fatiguing with some music and I feel that I am losing some of the lower level details.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *metalhead140* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm looking for a suitable linear power supply as well. I could work out a circuit myself if I have to, but to be honest I'd prefer to save the time and just buy a suitable unit. Even just a printed pcb to make life simple would probably provide the motivation I need to do it. I just don't really have the time at the moment to be bothered working it out and laying out the design.

 I'm using the STX at the moment. When the ST becomes available in Australia I'll grab one to replace it. I have the standard opamps fitted currently, but have a pile of opamps on the shelf ready to test from this and the STX thread, and have a number more on the way. Has anyone tried AD797s? _

 

There are many good designers in the DIY section. Figured it might be a better way to go if your looking for a PSU, just design and build one specifically for the STX or ST.
 I have a AD797A, but I prefer the AD8620 and the AD8599. I only have one right now so I could only test the buffer position.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *metalhead140* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_GWorlDofSPACE: What opamps have you compared with the Bursons and how have you found them? To be honest, if the Bursons are going to be the best then I'm pretty tempted to just buy them straight up. It's worth the money to me against spending the hours testing different units.

 Has anyone tried doing other modifications to bypass the opamp stages completely?_

 

 There are a couple guys using Bursons IIRC, There are more using the Audio-GD units I think. There is also a custom discrete opamps being developed by a few in this forum also.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *metalhead140* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using the STX line out of a dedicated HTPC to my stereo. The PC has replaced an older Pioneer CDP for audio. So far the PC sounds a bit better and I am listening to more music, but the highs are fatiguing with some music and I feel that I am losing some of the lower level details._

 

Opamp bypass has been suggested and talked about in a couple threads IIRC.
 The first two opamps are for current to voltage conversion so if you pypassed them you would have to add some passive components to do the conversion. You could probably get away with just a resistor. Not sure without looking at a full circuit diagram. The buffer could be bypassed totally but it would lower the output signal drastically forcing you to boost the nest stage further. I think this would affect the SNR as your getting more noise with less signal.


----------



## metalhead140

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are many good designers in the DIY section. Figured it might be a better way to go if your looking for a PSU, just design and build one specifically for the STX or ST._

 

That's a good idea. I'd certainly be keen for one if someone was doing it.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a AD797A, but I prefer the AD8620 and the AD8599. I only have one right now so I could only test the buffer position.

 Opamp bypass has been suggested and talked about in a couple threads IIRC.
 The first two opamps are for current to voltage conversion so if you pypassed them you would have to add some passive components to do the conversion. You could probably get away with just a resistor. Not sure without looking at a full circuit diagram. The buffer could be bypassed totally but it would lower the output signal drastically forcing you to boost the nest stage further. I think this would affect the SNR as your getting more noise with less signal._

 

Fair enough, I have heard the AD797BRZs are exceptional, but I haven't heard of any specific experience with them in the Essence.

 I'm just curious as to what people have done and what their experiences have been. I'm curious about circuits such as those on this site: Fet-ishizator. I quite like the look of his tube equivalent too, but whereas the FET version could be implemented inside my case, I would definitely need a seperate external box to house a tube circuit. I think that I would probably need to add a LPF to the circuit though, as I am using a solid state amp.


----------



## thoppa

Please ignore the crappy wires - just a quick test set up....

 I use these for my amps and the design is easily adapted for any output voltage. If you contact Paul, he'll do this for you. You'd need two ; one 5V and one 12V. They aren't expensive. 

 There's lots of good reading on his site :

Home Page

 I have customised mine - the main smoothing cap was a Panasonic FC and this has been replaced by three Nichicon HD in parallel - virtually no esr like this and a huge ripple current. The other two caps have been replaced by Black Gate FK, and I've added a Sonicap and a Vishay MKP to the output. Sweet.

 I think that about the only arguably better audio supply is a shunt regulator, or an Optima Red Top battery. These are horribly expensive options.

 BTW, I also like AD8620 and AD8599.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_




 THIS ARE 1,8 mVRMS (my corsair has 1,5 at 200W)_

 

The full wave looks like it is about 10ms ? 10 x 1000 = 10,000Hz. Exactly in the the middle of the treble range. Do you know what the PSU's switching frequency is ? It must be quite low ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Man, I wish I had a scope. I have to drag my gear to a friend when I want things checked.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Hey thoppa!

 This is not my PSUs wave! You can find this on the previous site there is a link to that page! I just compared to specifications of my PSU ! I dont know what are the swiching freq of my psu, but i have a corsair tx650!


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


 GWorlDofSPACE: What opamps have you compared with the Bursons and how have you found them? To be honest, if the Bursons are going to be the best then I'm pretty tempted to just buy them straight up. It's worth the money to me against spending the hours testing different units. 
 

I have compered the lme49720 and 49860! The burson are sounding more natural and organic.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey thoppa!

 This is not my PSUs wave! You can find this on the previous site there is a link to that page! I just compared to specifications of my PSU ! I dont know what are the swiching freq of my psu, but i have a corsair tx650!_

 

That's a relief ! That PSU should go in the bin. Man, that is horrible ! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *metalhead140* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any more info on this power supply? Where did you source it from?_

 

Here is the code from the side :







 It seems it is commonly used in external firewire cases ! A replacement part is listed for US$100 but I got it for US$30, plus I spent about US$20 on caps for it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *metalhead140* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a good idea. I'd certainly be keen for one if someone was doing it.

 Fair enough, I have heard the AD797BRZs are exceptional, but I haven't heard of any specific experience with them in the Essence.

 I'm just curious as to what people have done and what their experiences have been. I'm curious about circuits such as those on this site: Fet-ishizator. I quite like the look of his tube equivalent too, but whereas the FET version could be implemented inside my case, I would definitely need a seperate external box to house a tube circuit. I think that I would probably need to add a LPF to the circuit though, as I am using a solid state amp._

 

I only have one module right now. I have only tested in for buffer and it is a good opamp and not too much money compred to others. There seem to be many in the DIY section that love the 797 in one form or another. I like it but prefer others.
 I will have to review the information you linked to. The discretes seem to be working very good based on informaiton people have posted back.
 Some are using them for buffer and some for I/V and some are using them for both tasks. If you try any out post back with your results and let us know how it is going.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Here is a shot of two new modules I built. One is the LME49720 single TO-99 and a Dual LME49710 -dual TO-99. Thought some of your opamp rollers might like the pic.





 If your wondering I watermarked them myself. in case they find a new home...as pics always do
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If I had to choose between the two I would take the Dual LME 710's/ They sound just a bit better then the single 720HA.


----------



## thoppa

Cool ! I like the single to dual adapter - never seen one of those before....

 As we're sharing, here is a pic of the high spec AD8620BR, two standard LM49720, and two OPA2134. And all these op-amps are up for grabs too....






 Tom


----------



## leeperry

the 49722 looks money too! especially on the paper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 an improved 49720, w/ half less distortion...that must sound spectacular! I have a bunch of them, and browndogs too..can't wait for my friend to solder them up


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool ! I like the single to dual adapter - never seen one of those before....

 As we're sharing, here is a pic of the high spec AD8620BR, two standard LM49720, and two OPA2134. And all these op-amps are up for grabs too....






 Tom_

 

Those dual To-99 adapters were extremly hard to source.
 I have a list of people needing some made as I am guessing you do also. Seems once you start doing this everybody jumps in and wants to try them out.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those dual To-99 adapters were extremly hard to source.
 I have a list of people needing some made as I am guessing you do also. Seems once you start doing this everybody jumps in and wants to try them out._

 

Have you heard some of the to-99s???


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, I have heard many of them as I have a very large collection and many of my opamps are TO-99's.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

and how they sound compared to dicrete?


----------



## ROBSCIX

That is a tough one. Some units I prefer more then a discrete and sometimes I prefer discretes as it really depends on the circuit position. 
 Right now, I am testing a custom built discrete. Very small.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

could you show a picture of a custom build one?


----------



## ROBSCIX

I will see if I can find it..


----------



## Alexander01

what opamps do you like the most with this card when listening to electronic music like trance?


----------



## iamthecheese

This needs to be available in the US soon please...I got graphics cards hogging all my PCIe slots...


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what opamps do you like the most with this card when listening to electronic music like trance?_

 

just got mine back from RMA...all I can say is that LT1358IN8 is just so much better than the stock ones


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iamthecheese* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This needs to be available in the US soon please...I got graphics cards hogging all my PCIe slots..._

 

x2. Any news on when this will be released in the US? If its more than about a month I'll get an STX, the ST will have to be squeezed into the middle of my mobo anyway.

 How much better is the ST than the STX?


----------



## Alexander01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just got mine back from RMA...all I can say is that LT1358IN8 is just so much better than the stock ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ah thanks. Have you also listened to the LT1357? How do they compare to the 1358? Ive heard the 1357 is also very good for electronic music. And did you replaced only the I/V with these opamps? Or also the buffer?


----------



## leeperry

the 1357 is the single version of the dual 1358 I think?

 if you meant the 1057, I haven't received it yet.

 I use them as I/V through the HP amp


----------



## crossbone

Hi everyone!
 Time to post some of my opamp impressions!

 First of all, my equipment:
 Headphones: Sennheiser HD650 directly connected with the card
 Stereo Speakers: Some Lousy Bookshelf Speakers with aggressive highs -> Old Kenwood KA-5010 Amp connected via RCA with the card

_*2xJRC2114D I/V + LM4562NA Buffer*_
*Headphones:* This was also the setting which "burned in" my HD650. When i first listened to the combo fresh out of the box i felt the Sennheisers lacked some extensions in the lower end... where was the warm Sennheiser Sound everyone is talking about??? After some Burn-In (200 hours) there finally was some bass with the HD650. I like to listen higher volumes and the trebles sometimes sounded a bit grainy when listening at higher volume.
*Stereo Speakers:* Wheres the frickin Bass??? -> Bass knob +10db on the amp. A finally at least a bit bass... But wow, i can't turn up the volume... my speakers are SCREAMING!! at me oO

 This was when i felt like switching opamps could probably bring a lot more listening pleasure. So i just asked ROBSCIX (thanks dude!) for some advice. The first order of opamps was made: OPA2107, OPA2134, OPA2132 

_*2xOPA2134 I/V + OPA2107 Buffer*_
*Headphones:* WOW! Bass oO Hell yeah, finally... so that is meant by warm sennheiser sound... hmm but somehow the highs are a bit veiled and the soundstage got smaller copared to the stock configuration... well i don't care. The sound is a bit more "in your face" and i can listen at higher volume without headache! One more note concerning the Bass. There sure is a lot more bass, but it is also not as precise as with the stock configuration. Sometimes can be flabby.
*Stereo Speakers:* Well at least some Bass with my speakers... could turn the bass knob to +4, bass was the same as with the stock config and bass +10!
 I can also listen higher Volumes before my speakers start SCREAMING at me... (yes crappy speakers... some new ones coming anytime soon... i hate them)

_*2xOPA2107 I/V + OPA2134 Buffer*_
*Headphones:* Overwhelming... DUDE! Thats cool! Trebles like with the stock config, but also with some bass extension... woot, fine  Wider SS than the 2134 config a bit less Bass but more precise. Not as laid back as 2134. So far the best i heard with my SennHD650. Top Notch!
*Stereo Speakers:* Very, very, very nice! Finally the harsh trebles are tamed. Now i can listen at much higher volumes without getting headache

 The Last setup is what i am using right now, i like it absolutely. But ... "Damn you head-fi!" i just ordered some more free samples of other opamps. Just to try what others would be like... it's a fever 
 Waiting for: 
 THS4032CD
 LT1057 (eager of these! the descriptions i heard so far told me that this could be a one i like... i like nice bass extension and not that harsh highs) , LT1354
 LT1355
 LT1358
 LT1361
 LT1469

 As soon as these arrive i will make short reviews of them if you like and if i find the time.

 Bye
 cross


----------



## Alexander01

@leeperry

 Indeed it was LT1057, not 1357.

 Like to know the difference in sound between the 1057 and 1358 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 @crossbone

 Where can you get those free samples? Do they ship international? (I'm from Holland)


----------



## crossbone

@ Alexander:
 What you need is a valid .com email address. Then you Register at the manufacturers homepage (for example Analog, Embedded Processing, Semiconductor Company, Texas Instruments or Linear Technology - Linear Home Page)
 Now you search for the needed parts and watch for samples you can get. Just order and they ship international (i am german for example and received TI shipment within 2 days!)... things i experienced:

Analog, Embedded Processing, Semiconductor Company, Texas Instruments (Texas Instruments): Very Very Very Fast delivery! And absolutely free! Nice... 

Analog Devices, Inc. |*Converters Amplifiers Processors MEMS A/D Converters Analog to Digital Video Converter Temperature Sensors Analog Device RF Amplifiers Differential Amplifiers Digital Signal Processing Thermal Management D to A Converters Micro (Analog Devices): hmm i didn't find any samples here i would like to have ^^ only very few samples available

www.national.com (National Semiconductors) Few interesting samples... samples are free, but delivery is not! They want 27$ for shipping to germany... no thanks. I could buy them elsewhere cheaper aswell 

Linear Technology - Linear Home Page (Linear Technology): Seems to be free, many samples... but still waiting for delivery 

 Hope i could help!


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Crossbone, glad I could help. If your a bass head you might also enjoy the OPA2227, I always keep a few of these around for my bass channel in my surround cards. Think of the sound of the 2134 but add better bass definition and just more bass. That is the OPA2227. I have never really found another opamp that has quite the same type of bass sound as they have.
 That 2107/2134 combo would sound pretty good I would think. Your right though opamps get to be a bit of a fever for some. Just remember to stop every once in ahwile and enjoy what you have. Some get to wrapped up in analyzing their sound instead of listening and enjoying it. 
 Take care, if you have anymore questions let me know..also the LT1057 is a pretty good module also very warm offering great bass range smooth trebles and highs.


----------



## crossbone

@ROBSCIX, I already thought about the OPA2227. Too bad it is not available as a free sample from TI... and it's hard to find in Germany... 
 And what about the OPA2228. Could you Compare these two?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@ROBSCIX, I already thought about the OPA2227. Too bad it is not available as a free sample from TI... and it's hard to find in Germany... 
 And what about the OPA2228. Could you Compare these two?_

 

I have been wanting to check out the 2228, but I haven't had a chance to listen to it so I cannot really say. Some say it offer improved clairty over the 2227 in the higher ranges.
 Doesn't TI have a distributor around Europe somwhere? They are not that much money, I would suggest you get 3 of them so you can try various configurations with the ones you have.
 If I had a bunch I would send you a few but I only have a couple myself.


----------



## crossbone

I found some distributor:
Farnell
 1 OPA2227 is 5€ and shipping 8€.. quite expansive...


----------



## leeperry

and digikey is even worse, shipping is like 15 or 20 EUR...god bless free samples


----------



## ROBSCIX

I found them for $4 USD. They seem to have went up in price. They are good opamps though if your into bass.
 Though I would mention them to you though.


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Crossbone, here is something you might like since your into opamps swapping. The dual TO-99 module I built custom for use in my cards.


----------



## crossbone

Now that's dead sexy! 

 Well i will first wait for the other opamps. But the longer i listen to the 2107... the more i think that it cannot get much better.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes the 2107's are great opamps for audio and recommended by many people for audio. I have been using those for a few years in various cards.
 I figured you would like the picture of the Dual To-99 module, it has exceptional sound quality also. 
 I have a list of new modules I want to make including quite a few hard to find TO-99 based models. I will wait until built and tested before I mention them to others as possibilities.

 I am glad my recommendations worked out great for you and your enjoying the OPA2107's and other units as suggested.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the longer i listen to the 2107... the more i think that it cannot get much better._

 

did you try the 49720HA? these seriously rock as well..I thought exactly what you just said when I was using them on the STX.

 the trebles are not as whining as the 49720NA, but it's a good thing I think.

 PS: ah cool, TI just shipped my 2107


----------



## Alexander01

Just another question: what's the difference between the samples and the retail ones? Does samples expire or do I need to send them back within some time period?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just another question: what's the difference between the samples and the retail ones? Does samples expire or do I need to send them back within some time period?_

 

No difference.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Analog, Embedded Processing, Semiconductor Company, Texas Instruments (Texas Instruments): Very Very Very Fast delivery! And absolutely free! Nice... 

Analog Devices, Inc. |*Converters Amplifiers Processors MEMS A/D Converters Analog to Digital Video Converter Temperature Sensors Analog Device RF Amplifiers Differential Amplifiers Digital Signal Processing Thermal Management D to A Converters Micro (Analog Devices): *hmm i didn't find any samples here i would like to have ^^ only very few samples available*www.national.com (National Semiconductors) Few interesting samples... samples are free, but delivery is not! They want 27$ for shipping to germany... no thanks. I could buy them elsewhere cheaper aswell 

Linear Technology - Linear Home Page (Linear Technology): Seems to be free, many samples... but still waiting for delivery 

 Hope i could help!_

 

Analog Devices has some very good audio opamps but most of their units are SOIC. They are not compatible with the STX/ST without soldering them to adapters.


----------



## gurubhai

^^ Can you suggest some DIP8 opamps from AD which are in their sample program ?


----------



## crossbone

@ leeperry: As mentioned before i am a basshead, so i sorted out the LME opamps from the beginning . LT1057 looks Promising... I would also like to test the AD823, but it's not in the free sample program of AD...

 @ ROBSCIX: You're right, but my solderingskills surely suck  didn't solder since 1999. Don't want to kill those poor chips. ^^

 @gurubhai: The AD823 I mentioned before is one of the few "stock" DIP8 opamps of AD, seems to have some good reputation but is not in the free sample program and it's quite expansive - at least in Germany


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@ leeperry: As mentioned before i am a basshead, so i sorted out the LME opamps from the beginning . LT1057 looks Promising... I would also like to test the AD823, but it's not in the free sample program of AD..._

 

hehe, that's the thing! the 49720HA has the biggest bass I have ever heard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OTOH the trebles are rather tame...even an ex-National engineer on diyaudio.com can't explain why the TO99 version sounds so different from the DIP8


----------



## crossbone

Today my first LT Samples arrived:
 2xLT1057
 2xLT1358
 2xLT1364

 After listening about 10 hours to the following cited combo:
  Quote:


 _*2xOPA2107 I/V + OPA2134 Buffer*_
*Headphones:* Overwhelming... DUDE! Thats cool! Trebles like with the stock config, but also with some bass extension... woot, fine  Wider SS than the 2134 config a bit less Bass but more precise. Not as laid back as 2134. So far the best i heard with my SennHD650. Top Notch!
*Stereo Speakers:* Very, very, very nice! Finally the harsh trebles are tamed. Now i can listen at much higher volumes without getting headache 
 

I swapped in the 2 LT1057 for I/V so i got:

_*2xLT1057 I/V + OPA2134 Buffer*_
*Headphones:* Quite similar to the 2107 actually... though some slight differences: 2107 has a wider soundstage sounds a bit more airy. Highs with LT1057 are more in the background than with the 2107. I don't mean the highs are less or something, they just position a bit more backward soundstage wise. Perhaps a little mit more refinement in highs with the 2107. Mids are stronger on the LT1057. Upper Bass is stronger, too. Deep Bass is a bit weaker, though better controlled. I can't help but with the LT1057 there's also some echo/reverb or however it is called in english. Some Dream Theater Tracks i listened to (6:00, Caught In A Web) sound as if they are presented in a Jazz-Cellar  hard to describe, but the soundstage really differs from the 2107
*Stereo Speakers:* Not tested yet, i will stay with headphones anyway, till i get some new speakers.

 Summing it up, there are some similarities with the 2107 (in terms of frequency response) but the presentation is different. I really can't tell which one is "better" both are nice. I think it depends on your type of music. The slight reverb i can hear is a bit misleading on some quiet tracks. But then the Music is much more "in your face" at higher volumes. The LT1057 are often suggested for Electronic Music and i would sign that statement.


 Bye
 cross


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gurubhai* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^ Can you suggest some DIP8 opamps from AD which are in their sample program ?_

 

I cannot think of 1 DIP8 chips from them that you would want to use for audio. AD has moved much of it's products line over to the SOIC footprint. Just means you need to use adapters...
 If your interested in soldering I can recommend you a few audio opamps from AD.


----------



## crossbone

So after some more listening i have to say i like the OPA2107 more than the LT1057. Especially at lower Volumes. LT1057 has mids "pronounced" and highs are positioned different. And this strange reverb... hard to describe, sounds just seem to last longer than they should. Only a tad, but it's there.


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So after some more listening i have to say i like the OPA2107 more than the LT1057. Especially at lower Volumes. LT1057 has mids "pronounced" and highs are positioned different. And this strange reverb... hard to describe, sounds just seem to last longer than they should. Only a tad, but it's there._

 

Good to see I won't have to do any extensive listening with the LT1057's then, since I much preferred the LME49720NAs to the OPA2107 when I was using both a few months back. The 2107 does have it's appeal with it's very quick transients, sharp imaging and fast, aggressive sound, but it's small soundstage and occasional harshness weren't welcome changes coming from the 49720NA. I gave the 2107 a few chances (removed/reinstalled) but I found the same differences each time, in both the I/V and buffer spot.

 I've been using 3xLME49720NA for the past few months now. I haven't had time to test a lot of the opamps I have, but at this point, the only ones I'm really excited for are the LME49710HAs and 49720HA on adapters.


----------



## crossbone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good to see I won't have to do any extensive listening with the LT1057's then, since I much preferred the LME49720NAs to the OPA2107 when I was using both a few months back. The 2107 does have it's appeal with it's very quick transients, sharp imaging and fast, aggressive sound, but it's small soundstage and occasional harshness weren't welcome changes coming from the 49720NA. I gave the 2107 a few chances (removed/reinstalled) but I found the same differences each time, in both the I/V and buffer spot.

 I've been using 3xLME49720NA for the past few months now. I haven't had time to test a lot of the opamps I have, but at this point, the only one I'm really excited for are the LME49710HAs and 49720HA on adapters._

 

When i read this, i really like to try the 49720NA. How would you describe the Bass compared to the 2107 (as i am a basshead). Will i be missing something?


----------



## leeperry

the bass is anemic on the 49720NA, don't expect anything spectacular.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When i read this, i really like to try the 49720NA. How would you describe the Bass compared to the 2107 (as i am a basshead). Will i be missing something?_

 

They are just LM4562. They are the same opamps just different numbers.
 Some like their response and others do not.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When i read this, i really like to try the 49720NA. How would you describe the Bass compared to the 2107 (as i am a basshead). Will i be missing something?_

 

The LM4562/LM49720 aren't particularly bass heavy, your playback system also plays a major roll.


 Are you picking up a H6 board when released?


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When i read this, i really like to try the 49720NA. How would you describe the Bass compared to the 2107 (as i am a basshead). Will i be missing something?_

 

If you want the most amount of bass without it getting sloppy, just stick with the default JRC2114D in the I/V.


----------



## crossbone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you want the most amount of bass without it getting sloppy, just stick with the default JRC2114D in the I/V._

 


 peeeeew... i think the lme is not for my pleasure then ^^ i like BurrBrown Bass so far.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Burr Browns are always said to have that "burr Brown sound" as they call it. Which is usually described as big bass with glossy highs. the 2134 are perfect examples of the BB sound. If your still looking for the BB sound but want a better bass signature then the OPA2227 should be the next on your list. I would try out the LM/LME's also if your thinking about it as they seem to be a good fit for many and everybody like great bass.


----------



## crossbone

Well then... maybe next month i order some 2227/2228 and LMEs. For now i am settled with my 2107  but i still have some LT1358 and LT1364 lying next to me ^^

 Right now i have no plans to buy the H6 extension, but i like to have the option to do so


----------



## Alexander01

crossbone, what opamp config gave you the best/biggest sub-bass? I don't like to much upperbass since im getting tired of that.


----------



## crossbone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_crossbone, what opamp config gave you the best/biggest sub-bass? I don't like to much upperbass since im getting tired of that._

 

Biggest Sub-Bass was with the OPA2134, but it's sometimes flabby/unprecise (at least with my HD650) 2nd Place is OPA2107/LT1057 both are similar concerning bass... but LT1057 has definately some more upperbass. The fantastic thing about the 2107 is the nice soundstage and the highs, i love it.
 Compared to the OPA2107/LT1057 the OPA2134 has rolled of highs (veiled) and a very small soundstage.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well then... maybe next month i order some 2227/2228 and LMEs. For now i am settled with my 2107  but i still have some LT1358 and LT1364 lying next to me ^^

 Right now i have no plans to buy the H6 extension, but i like to have the option to do so _

 

Sure, I just enjoy the setup I have until I get bored and want to experiment. 
 The H6 is pretty cool if your going surround, as you have a seperate opamp for center and subwoofer, actually seperate opamps for every channel.
 The option is nice to have but not evrybody wants surround.


----------



## ZeNmAc

Hey, can one of you measure how long the card is? I'm trying to figure out if it will block my video card fan. Thanks!


----------



## crossbone

The ST Measures 17cm from the Back of the Case to the inside. 
 +3 cm for the power plug on it

 Ciao
 cross


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The ST Measures 17cm from the Back of the Case to the inside. 
 +3 cm for the power plug on it

 Ciao
 cross_

 

Thanks!


----------



## da_dude

hi there guys i think i may need to borrow some of your knowledge 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 basically i was about to purchase myself the essence stx then came across robs preview on the essence st so now im fairly confused

 my uses for this card will be listing to loseless audio mp3's and audio cds
 watching films and some light gaming all through headphones, ill most probably be using dr dre beats headphones although i may swap them soon for something better

 any advice would be much appreciated 

 all the best guys

 cheers


----------



## leeperry

hold right there, an Asus rep will be back w/ you shortly!


----------



## ZeNmAc

Is there any place that sells the ST that will ship internationally (to US) for a decent price? Or is it really expensive?
 Or do we have to wait until they release it here


----------



## genclaymore

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Burr Browns are always said to have that "burr Brown sound" as they call it. Which is usually described as big bass with glossy highs. the 2134 are perfect examples of the BB sound. If your still looking for the BB sound but want a better bass signature then the OPA2227 should be the next on your list. I would try out the LM/LME's also if your thinking about it as they seem to be a good fit for many and everybody like great bass._

 

The OPA2277's the dual channel ver would work also, I decided I liked the OPA2277 PA's in the buffer with the LME 49720NA's in the I/V. I havent tried it with the OPA827AID in the I/V with the OPA2277 in the buffer with them.

 the OPA2277 would also be a good choice for the I/V slots too


----------



## ROBSCIX

Everybody seems to have their favorite flavor!
 I haven't tried out the 2277's yet. Busy working with other units. I will put it on my list though.


----------



## oqvist

Should be considering not all have the same headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





... btw I finally got to it now. But I forgot to check which direction. the round dot should it be away from the whitey things? the lm4562 is the buffer right? Thought I keep that and just exchange the line and headphone out.

 Also is the spdif out only 3 pin not 4 pin?


----------



## oqvist

Gambled a bit. Expected the orientation should be the same as the 4562? If I get sound it works right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 I am a bit surprised how much lower volume I get with this opamp compared to stock? I have to turn my amp up way higher on the Slee Solo for the same given SPL?

 Also I don´t understand why this opamp is recommended for soundstaging? When I switch between the two inputs keces and this the soundstage shrinks a lot despite the Essence now lacking bass?


----------



## ROBSCIX

If the card is laying flat on a table with the input/output to your left. The dot/mark should be in the lower left hand side. Yes the orientation is the same as the LM4562NA.

 The dual JRC2114D's are a differential input Current to Voltage(I/V) converter section as the DAC itself is a current output part. The I/V stage converts the output of the DAC to voltage for the next stage with is the single ended buffer the LM4562NA.

 To note:
 When you take out the chips look at the sockets and you should see a indent in the one end. Pin 1, which is what the dot shows on the opamp is the first pin counterclockwise from the socket indent. Not sure if this last part helps or not but I included it so you can use the indent in the socket and the dent int he opamp to figure out the proper orientation on ANY opamps and any sockets. Sockets and opamps are all mrked in one way or another. If you need furtehr help let us know.

 Not all opamps are good for everybody, it this opamp is not your flavor try another one.
 The LM4562NA is only used when your in Line-out mode. The JRC2114D's are used in both can and line-out modes...

 The volume should be similar really...double check your opamps and make sure they are seated firmly in the sockets.


----------



## macrog

I cant work out which way the 49720ha's go on my browndog adapters. Can anyone help ? I'm very keen to hear them. I guess the print on top goes right to left and work out the orientation from the printed name on top ?

 regards

 macrog


----------



## oqvist

It´s definiatly not for me. When I switch to my Keces I always think I just powered on my surround system at the same time lol. But I think that´s quite good on the soundstage part I haven´t met it´s match. Elite Pro being the closest. All the reverberations and such are kind of lost it´s muted and dry and very centered. Kind of the opposite of what I expected from what I read about them. Gonna try the headphone output tomorrow and go back to stock tomorrow if that doesn´t work.


----------



## fzman

no -- the print is not relevant. the little tab is directly above pin 8work backwards from there


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cant work out which way the 49720ha's go on my browndog adapters. Can anyone help ? I'm very keen to hear them. I guess the print on top goes right to left and work out the orientation from the printed name on top ?

 regards

 macrog_


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cant work out which way the 49720ha's go on my browndog adapters. Can anyone help ? I'm very keen to hear them. I guess the print on top goes right to left and work out the orientation from the printed name on top ?

 regards

 macrog_

 

If you look at the can there should be a small metal tab sticking out. This show you pin 8. The adapter should also be marked showing wherew Pin8 is and where pin one is. Good luck.
 The prining for the component can face any which way and is usually never facing the right way. Use the tab and the labels in the adapters to figure the orientation out.


----------



## edelgiud

I was wondering if any other news has been heard by Asus for this ST PCI card then? Still not available and I really want something new for my PC (I have a newer PC for gaming but I would rather put the card in my old PC which has no PCI-e bus)....

 Thanks.


----------



## ROBSCIX

This card has been released in a few places but is coming out in small numbers. When the card will hit USA/Canada in large numbers is still unclear.


----------



## krisno

Anyone tried replaceing the 2x JRC 211 op-amps with discrete HDAM's, from Burson for instance? Does it make it any better / more fun, or just more detailed but sterile??


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone tried replaceing the 2x JRC 211 op-amps with discrete HDAM's, from Burson for instance? Does it make it any better / more fun, or just more detailed but sterile??_

 

There are a few members that have tried discrete opamps from Burson and discrete opamps from Audio-GD.
 Some have changed the buffer or I/V or all of the stock opamps and have reported great sonic gains. Maybe they will post some impressions for you based on their testing.


----------



## manuvajpai

my bad. Wrong thread.


----------



## ForTiNeRo

is there ANY chance to buy the ST in Switzerland by september (lets say 20-30th)?  I'm traveling there so...


----------



## xHawky

I'm still waiting for it to come into Australia. I've only seen the card in a few south African websites and a united kingdom site. It's not being spread fast enough by ASUS as it should be...


----------



## phusg

Thanks for the sneak peak. Finally some audio card goodness for us PCI only users, looks like a quality card. 

 Shame they didn't include DTS connect which I'm assuming would be able to encode 6 channel LPCM into a single full bitrate DTS stream. I'd prefer the slight loss in sound quality that entails to the expansion card and running 6 RCA cables to my receiver...


----------



## ROBSCIX

No problem. I think this card is really aimed at the analog crowds with the DDL as any afterthought. The DTS encoder just encodes whatever audio is sent to the card into a DTS stream. I jave tested this a few times on some of my other cards but I prefer analog or full resolution HDMI -if I decide to go digital.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Still no release date? Is it even coming out?


----------



## ROBSCIX

It has already been release in a few places.


----------



## crossbone

Owning my retail Version of the ST for almost a month now.

 Sad to hear outside europe it's really hard to geht these :-/


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Owning my retail Version of the ST for almost a month now.

 Sad to hear outside europe it's really hard to geht these :-/_

 

How much will it cost for you to ship 1 to me? I can use paypal, only.


----------



## crossbone

Well cards here are about 140€ + shipping
ASUS Xonar Essence ST, PCI (90-YAA0E0-0UAN00Z) Preisvergleich bei Geizhals.at Deutschland

 I Payed about 155€ shipped. (Germany)


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well cards here are about 140€ + shipping
ASUS Xonar Essence ST, PCI (90-YAA0E0-0UAN00Z) Preisvergleich bei Geizhals.at Deutschland

 I Payed about 155€ shipped. (Germany)_

 

I don't understand German....


----------



## crossbone

I think ordering this card in Germany is not an option.
 Very expansive. 
 -155€ shipping to my home
 -35€ international shipping
 _____
 ~190€ = 272$


----------



## Skobb

Does anybody here who has close contact with Asus people know when the card might make its way to Australia?
 Or anywhere except europe/asia.. lol


----------



## xHawky

I'm Aussie, too, and I doubt we'd be getting it anytime before december or even next year.


----------



## ROBSCIX

@XHawky, I will drop a messeage to some contacts and see if I can get a ETA for the mentioned places.


----------



## taiyoyuden

OHHH!! Make sure the U.S. is on that list please and thank you.


----------



## ROBSCIX

I will see what I can find out.


----------



## xHawky

Thank you, Robscix.


----------



## Skobb

Yes, thankyou ROBSCIX


----------



## ROBSCIX

I will keep you guys posted.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skobb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anybody here who has close contact with Asus people know when the card might make its way to Australia?
 Or anywhere except europe/asia.. lol_

 

drop me a PM and I'll give you the email of the Xonar Product Manager(yoyolai)

 better talk to God than to his saints, as we say in my country


----------



## ROBSCIX

On the modding side, I am considering doing some mods on the H6 card.


----------



## genclaymore

let me know who the mods go when you do them.


----------



## jalyst

Is this a better alternative to the HDAV Deluxe if you don't care about digital pass-through?
 I don't own an AVR etc, so quality of analogue-out is more important for me at this stage.

 Although any digi pass-through abilities would be nice bonus.... ;-P
 I'm another one of those long suffering Aussies/Kiwis, we always get screwed because our market is deemed too insignificant/remote.

 Cheers


----------



## ROBSCIX

I would say it depends on what your after. The HDAV1.3 has different features then the ST/STX and meat for different user types.

 For pure analog quality though, the STX/ST suprasses the HDAV1.3 according to the specifications.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *genclaymore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_let me know who the mods go when you do them._

 

Sure, I have been waiting for some parts and the time to do the mods.
 I have a pile of mods I have been waiting to do on a few cards...


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would say it depends on what your after. The HDAV1.3 has different features then the ST/STX and meat for different user types._

 

Hence my Qn: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




_Is this a better alternative to the HDAV Deluxe if you don't care about digital pass-through?
 I don't own an AVR etc, so quality of analogue-out is more important for me at this stage.
_

  Quote:


 For pure analog quality though, the STX/ST suprasses the HDAV1.3 according to the specifications. 
 

Thanks for confirming, does the ST have any form of digi pass-through?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well if analog quality is the main concern then yes the ST(X) has higher specifications over the HDAV 1.3.
 The STX/ST has a S/Pdif output that you can use for video output. If this is what your wondering about.
 Since you have no AVR, are you using an external DAC?


----------



## jalyst

I was just wondering if I got an AVR, could I still do some form of digi pass-through with this card, sounds like I can. 

 But by that stage I'd probably get a card more suited to the task anyway!

 Thanks


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, The ST(X) both have a digital output.
 There is also a DDL encoder which encodes any audio sent to the card into Dolby Digital.
 This card has been built for analog audio but has a few digital features..


----------



## jalyst

I spose the 1.3 deluxe's analog abilities can be improved by upgrading the removable opamps!

 That's the primary reason ST(X)'s analogue-out is better than the HDAV1.3 isn't it?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I spose the 1.3 deluxe's analog abilities can be improved by upgrading the removable opamps!_

 

Yes, you can upgrade the opamps on the HDAV 1.3 or the ST(X) 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's the primary reason ST(X)'s analogue-out is better than the HDAV1.3 isn't it?_

 

Actually, No! That is not the primary reason.
 The HDAV 1.3 and the ST(X) use the same opamp configuration stock.
 Which is two JRC2114Ds and a LM4562NA for each stereo pair.

 The ST(X) has better analog output specifications because the DAC used has higher specifications.


----------



## jalyst

Thanks I'd forgotten pretty much all the main differences, despite reading several reviews for both in the past... Goldfish memory 

 Think I'll still get the hdav.13 deluxe as unless I get a really expensive speaker system / headphones, I doubt I'll hear much of a difference!

 Thanks again


----------



## ROBSCIX

Glad I could help.
 Enjoy.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Any update Robscix?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Not as of yet.


----------



## ZeNmAc

I want one *sniff*. My wallet really appreciates it taking this long to be released in the US


----------



## xHawky

Yes, this is just tiresome searching for anything new on it.

 Now, I must try and get some good quality audio files. I don't listen to CD's, I usually just download music off videos such as those on youtube, etc. Seems like it'll be worth buying some discs soon to make some good use of my future Essence ST.


----------



## e6600

us launch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(
 ive been waiting so long for these


----------



## Ra97oR

Just order one from LamdaTek in UK. Cost £120 inc. postage.

 Next day delivery, so I am happy over all.

 On a side note, sold my X-Fi today, so there is no sound card inside my computer... xD


----------



## ROBSCIX

Give us your impressions when you get it.


----------



## ninekit

I am after only the SPDIF output of a soundcard, will the ST's digital output also benefited by the extra clock circuit over the STX? 

 Thanks


----------



## Ra97oR

Received the card just now. What I can say is... detail overload... Using AD1000PRM (AD2000) but it still not really the same as the Luxman P1 but close much closer than my old and now gone X-Fi.


----------



## ROBSCIX

So you enjoy the card? You can also get more detail and better sound quality by upgrading the opamps.


----------



## Ra97oR

Yea, I ordered these as well LME49720NA x 5, LME49860NA x 5, LM4562NA x 5, just waiting for them to arrive. (I like ripping National Seminconductor ) 

 And yea, I am kinda like a detail and treble freak. xD


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ra97oR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yea, I ordered these as well LME49720NA x 5, LME49860NA x 5, LM4562NA x 5, just waiting for them to arrive. (I like ripping National Seminconductor ) 

 And yea, I am kinda like a detail and treble freak. xD_

 

I've tried those opamps. I would recommend the LME49720NA from the list. I'll be getting the LME49720HA and LME49710HA soon and have pretty high expectations for them. Got them through our resident sound card guru ROBSCIX himself. They will likely be the last opamps I'll try with my STX.


----------



## MikeW

anyone know if this card has transformer coupled Digital output?


----------



## ROBSCIX

IIRC, no it does not.


----------



## taiyoyuden

I started considering an external DAC instead, how would this compare to a $150-250 DAC? Like the Zero? I'm only uncertain because I still want better sound quality with speakers, unless the DAC has something for speakers?


----------



## MikeW

I think stx/st will match/beat most dacs in it's price range. with perhahps a few exceptions. It's been compared favorably to the zero.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Actually, a few that have compared those two said it will surpass a modded Zero.
 However, I have never heard the comparison so I cannot say either way.


----------



## MikeW

hmm wonder if it would be safe to asume the emu 0404 has the better spdif output then? it's pretty frusterating lol, im trying to find the soundcard with best spdif output. No reviews anywhere ever bother comparing or even mentioning the specs of cards for digitial out, I can't find any information on XO crystal specs, transformer coupling, etc. It does kind of matter too if your an audiophile with a DAC and using a PC as a transport only. And while there's no doubt that overall the asus is the better soundcard, none of that matters if it's digital out is less than emu 0404. You also get people saying use a usb converter like musiland, well, I consider most usb converters a comprimise solution, somthing you use because you have to, because your using a laptop. I can't afford an off ramp or pace car so those are out of the question. Now the musiland 01 is inferior to the 02, which is in turn inferior to the STX (as compared by 1 person thus far in the musiland thread), and the STX very well may be inferior to the EMU 0404. Why does it have to be so complicated. The musland 02 is 150 bux btw, for slightly more I could get an STX, or a emu 0404 for even less (90$ shipped BNIB) Then there are the people who say digital out is digital out and it does not matter, that's not entirely true though, for example I have 3 digital outs at my disposal, my motherboard realtek chipset, the x-fi, and a oppo 980H, there's differences between all 3 of them, the motherboard being clearly worst, then the x-fi is alot better, then the oppo 980h is slightly better then x-fi. And you can hear the differnce between each one. Then you got the folks that say well a good dac has reclockers and a poor quality spdif does not matter, but how am I supposed to know what dac's I will own in the future and if those dac's have quality reclocking or not, there are some good dac's out there that don't have high end reclocking specs, like many NOS dacs, or somthing like Channel Island VDA-2, I think it just uses a cs 8416 reciever with little reclocking of the spdif signal. In these cases a lower jitter interface would make a difference, and you'll always be wondering in the back of your mind if your limiting your dac's poteintual with a crappy spdif interface. It's getting easier to understand why many people still give up on computer audio and get a high end, or even mid-fi cd transport. 

 edit: oh and the thought also crossed my mind that perhaps the STX is a better dac then im using anyways. So it's possible that is' analog output is > what im using as an outboard dac, just to add more fun to the equation. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IIRC, no it does not._


----------



## ROBSCIX

The actual DAC chip used in the STX and ST is one of the best you can find anywhere for specifications and measurments. There is more to an external DAC then just the chip but I figured I would mention it considering your last edit.


----------



## ninekit

I have read musiland 01 USD's digital out sound better than 0404 USB which in turn better than 0404 PCI. So think you have to treat all these web comments with a grain of salt and best try borrow and compare with friends who own some of these parts.

 I have RME 9632, airport express, realtek onboard as well as musiland monitor 01 USB. 

 My own rank, 01 USB and RME both sound better than apple and onboard. Can't compare 01 USB and RME as I had sold the RME and extracted cash out of it for other stuffs. Am presently happy with the 01 USB.

 May get an ST later if I need its ADC capabilities.


----------



## ninekit

I have read musiland 01 USD's digital out sound better than 0404 USB which in turn better than 0404 PCI. So think you have to treat all these web comments with a grain of salt and best try borrow and compare with friends who own some of these parts.

 I have RME 9632, airport express, realtek onboard as well as musiland monitor 01 USB. 

 My own rank, 01 USB and RME both sound better than apple and onboard. Can't compare 01 USB and RME as I had sold the RME and extracted cash out of it for other stuffs. Am presently happy with the 01 USB.

 And none of these sound better than my Accuphase CD player's digital output.

 May get an ST later if I need its ADC capabilities.


----------



## ROBSCIX

..so I guess he should take your opinion with a grain of salt also right?
 I didn't really give him any opinions just stated facts.

 I salso sugegst doing a comparison yourself as your ears can make the final call.


----------



## MikeW

Where did you get the impression the 0404 USB has better spdif output then the PCI version? I know the usb is rated at 500 PS jitter(which makes sense, we are going thru the USB bus after all), and the PCI is rated at 100, I don't know for sure that the usb is even transformer coupled. Please show some reviews/comparisons that show the USB 0404 being superior to the PCI version, because this is the first i've heard of it. Now if we are talking analog output that's a whole different game. 

 Edit: just to be sure, I checked the Product pages for the EMU 0404 USB and PCI version, sure enough, straight from EMU's website, the USB Version is rated at 500 PS, and is not transformer coupled. The PCI is rated at 100PS or less, and is transformer coupled. There's no way in hell the usb 0404's Digital output can match the pci version. 

 In the mean, time i've purchased a upgraded version of my dac, that has a built in re-clocker, im going to wait until i get it, to see how it handles jitter. If i can plug it into motherboard spdif and x-fi and hear no difference, well that means the reclocker is doing it's thing, and I can probably hold off on a transport upgrade for awhile. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ninekit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have read musiland 01 USD's digital out sound better than 0404 USB which in turn better than 0404 PCI. So think you have to treat all these web comments with a grain of salt and best try borrow and compare with friends who own some of these parts.

 I have RME 9632, airport express, realtek onboard as well as musiland monitor 01 USB. 

 My own rank, 01 USB and RME both sound better than apple and onboard. Can't compare 01 USB and RME as I had sold the RME and extracted cash out of it for other stuffs. Am presently happy with the 01 USB.

 May get an ST later if I need its ADC capabilities._


----------



## ninekit

Sure thing, what I want to point out is you can really find all sorts of personal subjective opinion on the web which go round and round the circle.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..so I guess he should take your opinion with a grain of salt also right?
 I didn't really give him any opinions just stated facts.

 I salso sugegst doing a comparison yourself as your ears can make the final call._


----------



## jalyst

So is there any news about a 6.1 card being available for this yet?
 I don't understand why they don't sell bundled and non-bundled versions!

 Also is availability still really limited worldwide, or is it fairly commonplace in Europe & parts of Asia now?

 I read earlier in this thread that the opamp sockets were sub-par 
 i.e. pressed not machine created, or something to that effect..

 Is this the same for the STX and the HDAV1.3?

 Dunka


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ninekit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure thing, what I want to point out is you can really find all sorts of personal subjective opinion on the web which go round and round the circle._

 

Yes, your right about that.


----------



## leeperry

I've got some machined op-amps sockets here(like they put on the Audiotrak/Auzen cards)...all I can say if that the contacts are far better, and it's far easier to manipulate when you have the right tool.

 Asus is dead silent about the hypothetical expansion board indeed..


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So is there any news about a 6.1 card being available for this yet?
 I don't understand why they don't sell bundled and non-bundled versions!

 Also is availability still really limited worldwide, or is it fairly commonplace in Europe & parts of Asia now?

 I read earlier in this thread that the opamp sockets were sub-par 
 i.e. pressed not machine created, or something to that effect..

 Is this the same for the STX and the HDAV1.3?

 Dunka_

 

Actually it is a 5.1 expansion card for htose that want to add this support to the ST. Some already have this support as they are using the card found with the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe.
 At this point in time, I think they will only be selling the H6 card as a sepearate upgrade. However, they may offer a bundled verdion down the road. Sort of a Xonar Essence ST Deluxe 7.1. 


 There are a few members with a ST Deluxe 7.1. That just got the H6 card from a HDAV 1.3 bundle.
 The opamp sockets on the card are pressed made. Commonly found on soundcards. Milled sockets are much better but also much more expensive when building a product such as this. I would prefer the milled sockets also but I wouldn't call them subpar. Just generic sockets...Nothing high end. 
 You can tell the difference as pressed made sockets have rectangular "slot" type of pin "holes" and machined have round pin holes. 
 I have a bunch of milled sockets I bought for use on the ST deluxe, nice gold plated machined sockets. Just have to get some time to change them out.

 Based on reports from other members, the card is still hard to find compared to other products BUT you can find it if you really want it.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've got some machined op-amps sockets here_

 


 you mean you had some added later?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Here is shot of the ST and H6 DAC expansion board


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you mean you had some added later?_

 

No, he has said in other threads he doesn't have the skill to do the job.
 Which is good as it is not a easy job and not for the novice.
 You need the right tools and the right skills or you can ruin the card.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you mean you had some added later?_

 

I planned on actually...but the drivers were too sucky-sucky(fixed samplerate yada yada) for me to gamble changing them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll get my HD2 tomorrow and it's got machined sockets(like all the Audiotrak/Auzen cards, and any serious card really).

 in the meantime, I've played around w/ some op-amps + this :






 and this :






 and this is far better than the lousy sockets on the Essence cards! plus the right caps come in the way, so the tool can't really be used 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I leave the fanboys alone now


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At this point in time, I think they will only be selling the H6 card as a sepearate upgrade._

 

So people have obtained the h6 from hdav1.3 deluxe's they already owned? 

 i.e. 
 It's still not available as a separate product let alone bundled with the ST? Sheesh.... What's going on?!

  Quote:


 The opamp sockets on the card are pressed made. Commonly found on soundcards. Milled sockets are much better but also much more expensive when building a product such as this. I would prefer the milled sockets also but I wouldn't call them subpar. Just generic sockets...Nothing high end. 
 

It's a shame that's the only area they dropped the ball on... 
 Otherwise the card screams quality more than any non-pro cards on the market.

  Quote:


 Based on reports from other members, the card is still hard to find compared to other products BUT you can find it if you really want it. 
 

Where is it most common right now? 
 Has anyone in this thread had any experience buying the ST from outside your country? 
 What are the pitfalls/gotchas? I guess warranties don't apply 

 Why is it such a slow roll-out?!
 It almost seems like they're dragging their feet for some reason....


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 and this is far better than the lousy sockets on the Essence cards! plus the right caps come in the way, so the tool can't really be used 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I leave the fanboys alone now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Gee you've really changed tack from what was once a sound-card you really loved!


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, he has said in other threads he doesn't have the skill to do the job.
 Which is good as it is not a easy job and not for the novice.
 You need the right tools and the right skills or you can ruin the card._

 

Yes or take it into an electrical repairs shop, still risky!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So people have obtained the h6 from hdav1.3 deluxe's they already owned? 
 i.e. 
 It's still not available as a separate product let alone bundled with the ST? Sheesh.... What's going on?!_

 

Yes, a few guys around here are using the H6 that came with the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe. 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a shame that's the only area they dropped the ball on... 
 Otherwise the card screams quality more than any non-pro cards on the market._

 

They should still be coming to these other locations. Just slower.
 Your right about the quality, they are great cards especially with some new high grade opamps.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where is it most common right now? Has anyone in this thread had any experience buying the ST from outside your country? What are the pitfalls/gotchas? I guess warranties don't apply _

 

In Europe and ASIA right now but shoudl me making the rounds like any other product.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why is it such a slow roll-out?!
 It almost seems like they're dragging their fee for some reason...._

 

They may just be gauging the interest...who knows...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes or take it into an electrical repairs shop, still risky!_

 

Well aslong as the person has the skills and the tools it is easy.
 I have some new gold plated machined sockets for the task.
 To note, this upgrade is not a audible one more of a physical one.


----------



## jalyst

Can anyone recommend a big online retailer from Asia that ships to Australia?
 Or failing that, Europe?

 Or do you know of any online retailers in these regions selling the ST right now?
 Irrespective of their shipping policy!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone recommend a big online retailer from Asia that ships to Australia?
 Or failing that, Europe?_

 

Where are you located?


----------



## jalyst

Brisbane/Australia.... 

 Must go to bed (4am) thanks for everyone's help so far!


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I planned on actually...but the drivers were too sucky-sucky(fixed samplerate yada yada) for me to gamble changing them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Drivers are pretty irrelevant to me as most 'recent' soundcard dvrs are going to be pretty sparse on Linux anyway! 

  Quote:


 I'll get my HD2 tomorrow and it's got machined sockets(like all the Audiotrak/Auzen cards, and any serious card really). 
 

Are you referring to this?
AnandTech: Auzentech HomeTheater HD Preview: Bitstreaming True HD/DTS-HD MA
 Anand was pretty nonplussed, and there wasn't much in the way of kind remarks in the avforums from most of the resident gurus.

  Quote:


 in the meantime, I've played around w/ some op-amps + this :

 and this :

 and this is far better than the lousy sockets on the Essence cards! plus the right caps come in the way, so the tool can't really be used 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I leave the fanboys alone now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

I'm no sure what you're talking about here, could you please re-phrase?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes or take it into an electrical repairs shop, still risky!_

 

most shops will refuse to try doing it anyway(yes, I called a few)...even fotios(who's far from a clown) said that it's VERY risky to do it, due to the high number of PCB layers.
 some ppl here will always tell you that impossible things are easily achievable...especially considering that Asus saved a few cents on cheap sockets, and YOU as a end-user should gamble on ruining your new $200 toy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm no sure what you're talking about here, could you please re-phrase?_

 

I'm not sure what to rephrase, Asus went w/ the cheapest DIP8 sockets available on the market...lousy contacts! machined sockets are just so much better.

 using third party drivers on Linux sounds like a great idea, but then you won't be able to change the HP out gain? not that it matters, the line-out is better anyway...but only on the STX 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, I've posted enough RMAA measurements...all the data is here for those who wanna dig deeeper


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_most shops will refuse to try doing it anyway(yes, I called a few)...even fotios(who's far from a clown) said that it's VERY risky to do it, due to the high number of PCB layers.
 some ppl here will always tell you that impossible things are easily achievable...especially considering that Asus saved a few cents on cheap sockets, and YOU as a end-user should gamble on ruining your new $200 toy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Whoever said it was easy? On the contrary most told you it was difficult because of the multi layers. However, if yo u have the tools and the know how you can do it. Even Fotios(who is far from a clown) did it by hand... 
 I don't recommend it for novices though...and as I said before if you have to go around asking about the job and what it involves then you are not ready to even try. Just because you do not have the skills to do it doesn't meant others don't.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure what to rephrase, Asus went w/ the cheapest DIP8 sockets available on the market...lousy contacts! machined sockets are just so much better._

 

Yes, machined sockets are much better and much more expensive also.
 Also, if it was such a deal breaker for you then why did you buy 3 Essence's?
 The sockets are fine if your leaving the stock opamps installed or are only doing mild change outs. Where you would have a issue is if you change out opamps a few hundred times. This is a physical upgrade not a sonic one.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_using third party drivers on Linux sounds like a great idea, but then you won't be able to change the HP out gain? not that it matters, the line-out is better anyway...but only on the STX 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Try again. Lineout is better then headphones out on either card. Check your facts.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, I've posted enough RMAA measurements...all the data is here for those who wanna dig deeeper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What you mean RMAA measurments theat you needed help from others to even get proper measurments in the first place? 
 To note, you also said in another post a few post back that RMAA means nothing. Which is it?
 You have also posted how great these cards are and basically recommended them to everybody you could. Now your suddenly saying they are bad just to troll.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_using third party drivers on Linux sounds like a great idea, but then you won't be able to change the HP out gain? not that it matters, the line-out is better anyway...but only on the STX 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well I'm not sure about it being a great idea, but so long as the core functionality is there I'll be happy. 
 I don't care about the extra bells and whistles one might get with Windows drivers, they will emerge in ALSA if they're useful. 
 Not sure what you mean by not being able to change the HP out gain, I expect this functionality to be in place fairly early on.

 cheers


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


 I'll get my HD2 tomorrow and it's got machined sockets(like all the Audiotrak/Auzen cards, and any serious card really). 
 

Are you referring to this?
AnandTech: Auzentech HomeTheater HD Preview: Bitstreaming True HD/DTS-HD MA
 Anand was pretty nonplussed, and there wasn't many kind remarks in the avs forum from most of the resident gurus.

  Quote:


 in the meantime, I've played around w/ some op-amps + this :

 and this :

 and this is far better than the lousy sockets on the Essence cards! plus the right caps come in the way, so the tool can't really be used 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 but I leave the fanboys alone now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

What are the objects in those two pictures?
 And what do you mean by....

_plus the right caps come in the way, so the tool can't really be used_





 That sentence is not very clear to me, thanks!


----------



## Ra97oR

Just swapped in the LME49720NA, treble got a lot better and bass has a bit more impact, overall sound is a bit brighter but not to the point of unbalanced.

 EDIT: I also realise it a bit louder too... Have to turn the volume down.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The HA models sound better over the chip models. Which is usally the way of things with opamps. The TO-99 metal can opamps are ususall the top of the product family.
 If your card is still rather new, it may still need some settling or "burn-in" for the capacitors.


----------



## Ra97oR

Consider the adaptors costing £4 each, the upgrade will cost £12 which I am not willing to dish out just yet.

 How much is the improvement from chip to HA model? Dual mount possible?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quite a bit from my tests. The LME49720HA models are dual channels and they soudn pretty good. There is also a single channel model, the LME49710HA which is single channel and needs another adapter sounds better. Both are great though.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Here is a picture of the units I am refering to:




 The three across the front are the LME49720HA modules and the dual one in the back is the Dual LME49710HA module.


----------



## Ra97oR

Any better with the Dual Module? Does it fit with the EMI shield in place?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ra97oR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any better with the Dual Module? Does it fit with the EMI shield in place?_

 

Sure, the dual 710HA module is used for the buffer position when using the line-outs. Sounds very good. You cannot use the EMI sheilding when you use these modules. Quite a few members removed their sheilding and leave it off for opamp testing.


----------



## jalyst

Anyone? Just putting it out there one last time, then I'll let everyone get back to opamp discussion 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone recommend a online retailer from Asia that ships to Australia, or failing that, from Europe?
 Or do you know of any online retailers in these regions selling the ST+H6 right now, irrespective of their shipping policy?!_


----------



## ROBSCIX

Not that I know of as I don't live over there. I know there are a few guys that bought them from online retailers in EU and ASIA but I am unsure how they are. Hopefully they will chime in and help you get what your after.


----------



## Ra97oR

So EMI shield doesn't fit when using metal cans... D:


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a bunch of milled sockets I bought for use on the ST deluxe, nice gold plated machined sockets. Just have to get some time to change them out._

 

When you say "ST Deluxe" you're just talking about an Essence ST + a pilfered H6 from a pre-owned HDAV.13 Deluxe right?


----------



## ROBSCIX

That is one way to go about it yes. The H6 boards are compatible with the pin header and allows support for surround.


----------



## jalyst

Are you suggesting there's other ways?? 
 The expansion card for the ST still isn't available at all, & little is known about it correct?

 Sorry, should have started this new line of Questioning back in my dedicated thread....


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well until the H6 is available to the public that is. 
 If they are going to go with this model for expansion then they already have the cards for the HDAV 1.3.


----------



## jalyst

when you tested the prototype, did they make any indication that they intended to use something that was fundamentally the same as the H6 or very different?


----------



## ROBSCIX

I didn't test a Prototype! I tested an Engineering sample, very different items.
 The ST is currently compatible with the H6 DAC expansion board so I would think this is the route they intend to take but that is just opinion.


----------



## jalyst

What I find strange is that this card is now readily available in some parts, yet the expansion card is not.

 What? I mean, isn't that the big new feature of the card?! (aside from re-clocking)

 Okay I'll shut-up now


----------



## mojave

I have been waiting on the card since I first heard about it in March. I thought it was close when ASUS gave an official announcement in May. Maybe there are some driver issues relating to Windows 7 that they are working on.


----------



## taiyoyuden

I really hope they are not allowing themselves extra time due to the Windows 7 release.


----------



## Ra97oR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have been waiting on the card since I first heard about it in March. I thought it was close when ASUS gave an official announcement in May. Maybe there are some driver issues relating to Windows 7 that they are working on._

 

Using a ST with Windows 7 x64 RTM, no problems at all. It been released in many countries, Hong Kong, UK... I have no idea why its not out in US.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I find strange is that this card is now readily available in some parts, yet the expansion card is not.

 What? I mean, isn't that the big new feature of the card?! (aside from re-clocking)

 Okay I'll shut-up now _

 

Well the expansion card was never slated to come out at the same time.
 It was said to be coming after the cards initial release.
 The H6 cards are already built for the HDAV 1.3...


----------



## taiyoyuden

I'm losing it! Someone export one to me!


----------



## Ra97oR

ASUS XONAR ESSENCE ST PCI on eBay (end time 13-Oct-09 05:18:04 BST)


 Ask for worldwide shipping.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Thanks Ra97oR. Can I ask how much you paid for yours? I'm just wondering how much of a premium I'm paying for impatience.


----------



## Ra97oR

I paid about £120 +/- shipped.


----------



## e6600

ASUS XONAR ESSENCE ST PCI - eBay (item 120469055504 end time Oct-12-09 21:18:04 PDT)

 its about $230usd + shipping


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well the expansion card was never slated to come out at the same time.
 It was said to be coming after the cards initial release._

 


 Yeah but why? 
 That's just plain weird when it's the major new feature for this release!
 (aside from re-clocking)

 And if the H6 is being used, then there shouldn't be production problems.


----------



## e6600

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah but why? 
 That's just plain weird when it's the major new feature for this release!
 (aside from re-clocking)

 And if the H6 is being used, then there shouldn't be production problems._

 

i dont think hes an actual asus employee.. he may have contacts and info, but its not like hes pulling the decision making at asus marketing


----------



## jalyst

I realise that,

 Just curious what others can logically deduce as to what would be reasoning behind Asus's approach.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i dont think hes an actual asus employee.. he may have contacts and info, but its not like hes pulling the decision making at asus marketing_

 

I am a reviewer for another website. I have high level contacts in most audio card companies. Some information I have, I can share...other information I can't. 
 I try to use my contacts to bring the audio community new information when available such as the ST/STX sneak peak or the X-Meridian,Prelude, HTHD 7.1 pics/specs etc. I also have more sneak peaks coming soon!
 I do what I can to bring info to the people that want it.


----------



## taiyoyuden

I'm estimating $236.91 USD each shipped for qty 2 to the same address and after bing cb. Now for the decision making process...


----------



## ROBSCIX

That is not too bad is it? How much is the STX where you are, similar price?

 Well if your using a SB Live, you have a serious audio upgrade ahead of you ifyou buy a ST.


----------



## taiyoyuden

The STX is $200 USD Retail in the USA. $237 for the ST is a pretty good deal considering it's not released here yet.

 I'm just on the fence about it because I don't have good or any headphones yet. It'll be useless for my Logitech z-5500 for the time being as well. Also I might get a large store credit to a PC store here for a recent unrelated purchase that I want to use on the ST when it does come out here. Then again, I could just buy some decent headphones now with the ST... o_o.

 Oh and my whole signature is a joke. None of it is true. I thought you guys would make fun of me for it but no one has yet.


----------



## jalyst

I would seriously consider doing the same thing as you but the problem is we've heard nothing more from Asus about the status of the expansion cards. 
 So how can we really say they're definitely going to be available?

 That for me is a deal breaker  
 There's no denying it would be a beautiful card for headphones, but I also want a beautiful card for speakers!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The STX is $200 USD Retail in the USA. $237 for the ST is a pretty good deal considering it's not released here yet.

 I'm just on the fence about it because I don't have good or any headphones yet. It'll be useless for my Logitech z-5500 for the time being as well. Also I might get a large store credit to a PC store here for a recent unrelated purchase that I want to use on the ST when it does come out here. Then again, I could just buy some decent headphones now with the ST... o_o.

 Oh and my whole signature is a joke. None of it is true. I thought you guys would make fun of me for it but no one has yet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Actually, for the Z-5500's you can use the digital output using the DDL encoder until you get the H6 DAC board or a set of good cans. Oh, I thought you were really using a SB Live...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would seriously consider doing the same thing as you but the problem is we've heard nothing more from Asus about the status of the expansion cards. 
 So how can we really say they're definitely going to be available?

 That for me is a deal breaker  
 There's no denying it would be a beautiful card for headphones, but I also want a beautiful card for speakers!_

 

They haven't gave an official date as to when they will be released. They do mention the expansion card in the official information on their site:

*Multi-channel Upgradable*
 Essence ST is designed to allow full 7.1 surround enjoyment with future upgrade. The high fidelity Xonar H6 multi-channel extension board sold separately in the future provides 120dB signal-to-noise ratio, offering the ultimate surround sound quality ever in the market. 

 I don't think there is any reason to assume they won't bother releasing them.
 They put the Pin Header on the card for a reason and the cards are already in production for use on the HDAV 1.3. I think it is a matter of time.
 Although I can see your point as you don't want to wait.
 Perhaps look at another product from this line up or from another company.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, for the Z-5500's you can use the digital output using the DDL encoder until you get the H6 DAC board or a set of good cans. Oh, I thought you were really using a SB Live..._

 

Success. You have been bamboozled.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Success. You have been bamboozled. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hmm, I've just realised I could do the same for my old Z-680 speaker set. (grand daddy to the 5500's)
 Then "if" the expansion card becomes available I'll get it and some new speakers!

 Hmm, there's still just too many unknowns though... 
 Think I'll continue to look at the HDAV deluxe and other alternatives until I hear more about availability of the H6, & H6 + ST in Australia.


----------



## ROBSCIX

If I hear anything I will post in this thread.


----------



## e6600

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am a reviewer for another website. I have high level contacts in most audio card companies. Some information I have, I can share...other information I can't. 
 I try to use my contacts to bring the audio community new information when available such as the ST/STX sneak peak or the X-Meridian,Prelude, HTHD 7.1 pics/specs etc. I also have more sneak peaks coming soon!
 I do what I can to bring info to the people that want it._

 

theres no doubt that we are *extremely* grateful to have you releasing info and knowledge about the cards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 its not too often to have a reviewer is so involved with his/her readers..


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_theres no doubt that we are *extremely* grateful to have you releasing info and knowledge about the cards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 its not too often to have a reviewer is so involved with his/her readers.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thank you for the kind words, they are appreciated.
 I enjoy audio and enjoy talking with people about audio.
 Hopefully, there will be more sneak peaks and information on upcoming toys for us PC audio lovers.


----------



## jalyst

My sentiments exactly...
 If you're ever passing through Brisbane/Australia; I owe you a beer or 10!
 Keep chasing those leads Rob, and keep us in the loop if you can.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_theres no doubt that we are *extremely* grateful to have you releasing info and knowledge about the cards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 its not too often to have a reviewer is so involved with his/her readers.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...we've heard nothing more from Asus about the status of the expansion cards. 
 So how can we really say they're definitely going to be available?
 That for me is a deal breaker  
 There's no denying it would be a beautiful card for headphones, but I also want a beautiful card for speakers!_

 

I'm totally with you on that one. What I'm hoping is the logical explanation for the delay is that Asus is designing/producing an 'audiophile' second version of the H6 daughtercard with

 a) a better quality/EMI shielded connection
 b) an EMI shield for the opamps just like on the ST mothercard (with 3 little lion/sphinx thingies printed on it while they're at it!)

 As far as I can see such a bundle would be the business for 6 channel HD sound (with 5.1 LPCM soundtracks) and would make it a competitor to the newer AV recievers supporting the new HD codecs like DTS-MA etc. At least that's how my wallet sees it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My sentiments exactly...
 If you're ever passing through Brisbane/Australia; I owe you a beer or 10!
 Keep chasing those leads Rob, and keep us in the loop if you can._

 

I will do what I can to help.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phusg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm totally with you on that one. What I'm hoping is the logical explanation for the delay is that Asus is designing/producing an 'audiophile' second version of the H6 daughtercard with

 a) a better quality/EMI shielded connection
 b) an EMI shield for the opamps just like on the ST mothercard (with 3 little lion/sphinx thingies printed on it while they're at it!)

 As far as I can see such a bundle would be the business for 6 channel HD sound (with 5.1 LPCM soundtracks) and would make it a competitor to the newer AV recievers supporting the new HD codecs like DTS-MA etc. At least that's how my wallet sees it._

 

A) I am guessing your tlaking baout the cable between the ST and the H6 card. It actually seem high quality. I am unsure if it is sheilded or not but I have never heard any type of interference over the card.
 B) I think the sheilding for the H6 card would also be a great idea.

 One cool thing to note about the H6 is you can use seperate opamps for the center and sub. Usually on cards where you can change the opamps they would share a single opamp.
 Here have a look:






 Modding out those caps with some higher quality Black gates or OS-CONs might also be a great idea!


----------



## taiyoyuden

Is it hard to replace the caps? I recently bought a low power soldering iron to solder a fan onto my router and that's all the experience I have.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, for the Z-5500's you can use the digital output using the DDL encoder until you get the H6 DAC board or a set of good cans. Oh, I thought you were really using a SB Live..._

 

I completely forgot about that! Another thought was to use two sound cards. Is it possible to switch between two cards with different drivers without restarting/reinstalling/etc.?


----------



## ROBSCIX

No to hard to replace caps. The H6 board has very high quality output measuring about 120dB SNR and dynamic range. I was just mentioning it for the modders.

 Yes you can install multiple cards in a Windows based system and set windows to default to one -this would be for your games etc. You can further set your multimedia programs to use another one through their ouput drivers. I have used multiple soundcards for years. Aslong as there is no type of internal conflict of the drivers or resources your good.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Oh wow that's cool. I can easily test between the ST & X-Fi Xtrememusic then but what do you mean by internal conflict of the drivers or resources? I'll probably only want the X-Fi for games if it is indeed better.


----------



## ROBSCIX

If the cards are using the same resources. It usually never happens.

 There is another program that I helped devlop called velbac. Technically, it would link your two cards internally. If you were playing a game the X-fi would process it and send the audio internally to the second card. It has been awhile since I used that application but it worked perfectly in XP and Vista. It allows you to use one card for DSP (creative chip based) and a second card for output. You get all the features of both cards.


----------



## mojave

Does the EMI Shield not fit when using any opamp on an adapter? If it doesn't fit, has anyone tried to adapt it to fit?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, when using the chip based SOIC adapters you can still use the sheilding. The TO-99 -metal can units are to high to use the sheilding.


----------



## chinesekiwi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I swapped in the 2 LT1057 for I/V so i got:

*2xLT1057 I/V + OPA2134 Buffer*
*Headphones:* Quite similar to the 2107 actually... though some slight differences: 2107 has a wider soundstage sounds a bit more airy. *Highs with LT1057 are more in the background than with the 2107. I don't mean the highs are less or something, they just position a bit more backward soundstage wise. Perhaps a little mit more refinement in highs with the 2107. Mids are stronger on the LT1057. Upper Bass is stronger, too. Deep Bass is a bit weaker, though better controlled. I can't help but with the LT1057 there's also some echo/reverb* or however it is called in english. Some Dream Theater Tracks i listened to (6:00, Caught In A Web) sound as if they are presented in a Jazz-Cellar  hard to describe, but the soundstage really differs from the 2107
*Stereo Speakers:* Not tested yet, i will stay with headphones anyway, till i get some new speakers.

 Summing it up, there are some similarities with the 2107 (in terms of frequency response) but the presentation is different. I really can't tell which one is "better" both are nice. I think it depends on your type of music. The slight reverb i can hear is a bit misleading on some quiet tracks. But then the Music is much more "in your face" at higher volumes. The LT1057 are often suggested for Electronic Music and i would sign that statement.

 Bye
 cross_

 

After reading this, I think I'd still prefer the LT1057 as I feel what you described (bolded) is more accurate to the production of music 'depth of soundstage', reverb etc.

 Anyway ROBSCIX and others who've pre-tested this, what are the differences between the STX an ST using the same opamps?


----------



## ROBSCIX

*Essence ST Distribution Update!*

 Hey guys, I used my review contacts to get some official information from ASUS on the Essence ST.
 These cards will be coming to the USA, very soon. I do not have an exact date but most likely mid October. This is not a maybe, this is a for sure.
 I hope that helps for you guys that are waiting and wondering if it is coming to America.
 I will see if I can get further details and possible dates for those in other locations. I will also see if I can get further information on the H6 DAC expansion board release.


----------



## RicHSAD

Very nice. Thanks for the info!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Sure. No problem.


----------



## Sabin0786

Looks great


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sabin0786* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks great_

 

Sounds better!


----------



## xHawky

Awesome work once again Robscix, keep it up


----------



## jalyst

Thanks Rob, don't forget us others guys "down-under" in Australasia!
 Need to know availability of the ST "*AND*" it's 6.1 expansion card.

 Was speaking to one of the main ALSA devs and he seems think the expansion card has been canned. 
 I don't think he's received official word on that, tis just his assertion. Which he hasn't gone into detail about yet.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Essence ST Distribution Update!*

 Hey guys, I used my review contacts to get some official information from ASUS on the Essence ST.
 These cards will be coming to the USA, very soon. I do not have an exact date but most likely mid October. This is not a maybe, this is a for sure.
 I hope that helps for you guys that are waiting and wondering if it is coming to America.
 I will see if I can get further details and possible dates for those in other locations. I will also see if I can get further information on the H6 DAC expansion board release._


----------



## cladisch

Quote:


 Was speaking to one of the main ALSA devs and he seems think the expansion card has been canned. 
 

I said "It doesn't look as if Asus is actually going to sell the daughter board separately"; and this is just based on public information that has been available so far.

 Asus already sells both the H6 (bundled with the HDAV1.3 Deluxe) and the ST (at least here in Europe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





), so there shouldn't be any _logistical_ reason not to sell the H6 for the ST.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Thanks for the notice Robscix!

 I would be pretty happy with a price of $200 USD for the ST Deluxe. I think I might do something crazy now like get the Grado RS 1i as my first real headphones. yes...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Rob, don't forget us others guys "down-under" in Australasia!
 Need to know availability of the ST "*AND*" it's 6.1 expansion card.

 Was speaking to one of the main ALSA devs and he seems think the expansion card has been canned. 
 I don't think he's received official word on that, tis just his assertion. Which he hasn't gone into detail about yet._

 

No, there is no official word on that yet. Why would they "can" the H6 card as add on for the ST?
 It is already in production for another product the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe.
 All they need to do is package it up and send it out.

 I am waiting on follow up information and will post what I can when I can.


----------



## jalyst

Never made sense to me why they'd sell it separately anyway.

 If you don't want 6.1, you get the STX, simple...
 Sure you miss out on the re-clocking of the ST, but that's extra stuff you should get for paying the premium for an "ST Deluxe" IMO

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cladisch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I said "It doesn't look as if Asus is actually going to sell the daughter board separately"; and this is just based on public information that has been available so far.

 Asus already sells both the H6 (bundled with the HDAV1.3 Deluxe) and the ST (at least here in Europe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), so there shouldn't be any logistical reason not to sell the H6 for the ST._


----------



## jalyst

Well we still don't know for sure that the card used will be the H6...
 Whatever it is, it'll at least be very similar, but it makes sense it'll be the H6.

 No worries, I await patiently.... NOT! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, there is no official word on that yet. Why would they can the H6 card?
 It is already in production for another product the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe.
 All they need to do is package it up and send it out.

 I am waiting on follow up information and will post what I can when I can.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Never made sense to me why they'd sell it separately anyway.

 If you don't want 6.1, you get the STX, simple...
 Sure you miss out on the re-clocking of the ST, but that's extra stuff you should get for paying the premium for an "ST Deluxe" IMO_

 

What if the STX doesn't fit into your PC? (Graphics card covering it for example, since it is PCI-E 1x).

 So thats another reason to get the ST, since PCI slots are easier to get around to IMO. It may come to what fits your needs(future, too) but it also comes to the environment of how it'll be set up.


----------



## jalyst

Tis a good enough reason to also get the ST...


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xHawky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What if the STX doesn't fit into your PC? (Graphics card covering it for example, since it is PCI-E 1x).

 So thats another reason to get the ST, since PCI slots are easier to get around to IMO. It may come to what fits your needs(future, too) but it also comes to the environment of how it'll be set up._

 

its funny, this is the exact opposite situation for me...




 With a two slot video card, that pci slot will be a tight fit. At least I can move the video card. I still don't get why the better card is pci, all the newer motherboards have virtually no pci slots.


----------



## ROBSCIX

..maybe the STX is the better fit for you then.


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZeNmAc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_its funny, this is the exact opposite situation for me...
http://img.hexus.net/v2/news/foxconn/bloodrage-big.jpg
 With a two slot video card, that pci slot will be a tight fit. At least I can move the video card. I still don't get why the better card is pci, all the newer motherboards have virtually no pci slots.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

http://hawky.ucoz.org/Personal/internalpcbottom.JPG

 PCI is better for me =p

 And it seems we both have the same motherboard manufacturers ._.


----------



## e6600

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZeNmAc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_its funny, this is the exact opposite situation for me...
 With a two slot video card, that pci slot will be a tight fit. At least I can move the video card. I still don't get why the better card is pci, all the newer motherboards have virtually no pci slots.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

dont forget that most headfiers are not computer enthusiasts
 most have some type of oem computer or laptop, with limited ability to use a soundcard

 for me, a pci sound card like the essence st would fit better..


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_dont forget that most headfiers are not computer enthusiasts
 most have some type of oem computer or laptop, with limited ability to use a soundcard

 for me, a pci sound card like the essence st would fit better.._

 

I'm actually an enthusiast more than an audiophile 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Even so, I'm trying to be a general all rounder in audio now. I'm learning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 After I get my card upgrade, I shall hopefully stop whinging about how unclear and bad the audio is I currently have. Then I might start messing with different OPAMPs/DACs or whatever


----------



## taiyoyuden

1 more month... 4 more weeks...


----------



## genclaymore

I can fit the HDAV in my first PCIE slot but since I put on the op-amps the card isn't straight. So i got have to take Two of the chip-set shield screws off. Before I can get it in the case straight.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Just leave the sheilding off.


----------



## e6600

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1 more month... 4 more weeks..._

 

for what?
 better not be us st release date =_=


----------



## ROBSCIX

...aren't you waiting for one?


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for what?
 better not be us st release date =_=_

 

Well, if that's sarcasm, then I guess your unhappy that you still have to wait a month for it =p *agrees*


----------



## taiyoyuden

I guess the wait won't be that bad since my school workload just quadrupled...


----------



## jalyst

You must've missed Rob's earlier post
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6016923-post714.html

 Speaking of that tidbit, that was over 5-days ago now...
 Rob have you heard back from Asus yet about availability in Australasia?

 Cheers

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for what?
 better not be us st release date =_=_


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess the wait won't be that bad since my school workload just quadrupled..._

 







 yea really. I wonder if I'll even have time to enjoy it before winter break.

 It is still going to be painful to drop another 200 bucks after building a computer, even though I included that in my budget. Then Windows 7 comes out and I have to buy that too
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Head-fi really is living up to its reputation. It's not that this audio stuff is insanely expensive, its that I still spend a lot on computers and such too...

 I can't wait


----------



## e6600

i was actually checking this thread every day for the past week
 cant believe i missed that! im definitely buying one, but its hard to say ill get one on release date... just a few very tempting things like the new ati cards -.-


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i was actually checking this thread every day for the past week
 cant believe i missed that! im definitely buying one, but its hard to say ill get one on release date... just a few very tempting things like the new ati cards -.-_

 

Well if you can't get enough cash between the ATI cards and the ASUS card, then you could go with an ATI 4770. Later on when you get more cash just get another and crossfire the two of them, beats a single 4890 in crossfire.

 But a 4890x2 might be coming out, currently theres a 4870x2... Just whatever fits your budgets and needs. You could always wait til ATI gets to the 5k series which is better made for Win 7's DX11 (And vista should be getting it eventually via an update).

 *sigh* Yea, so many good things coming out that are way above our income


----------



## taiyoyuden

If we find out the release date for Australasia is months after the U.S. date, I wouldn't mind shipping you one at cost. The only problem is if it costs an arm to ship it to you.


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If we find out the release date for Australasia is months after the U.S. date, I wouldn't mind shipping you one at cost. The only problem is if it costs an arm to ship it to you._

 

I guess I'd be fine getting you to ship one to me in Aus, providing it's through paypal and we set things up smoothly.

 I dunno.. >.<


----------



## jalyst

Thanks for the offer, 

 I've just been told by one of the main Asus rep. in Australia that the ST is about to be shipped & that the shipping will take 4wks. 
 So it should be in most retail outlets at the beginning of November. I'm still trying to get a response on the expansion card...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If we find out the release date for Australasia is months after the U.S. date, I wouldn't mind shipping you one at cost. The only problem is if it costs an arm to ship it to you._


----------



## Skobb

Yay!
 Why didn't you let me know on OCAU jalyst? haha
 I'll be hanging around this thread for some info on the expansion card


----------



## xHawky

ASUSTeK Computer Inc.
 There's the above the drivers etc, I got everything set for it's release. 

 I'll just shush now as I'm creating spam and just so hyped up about it's release


----------



## taiyoyuden

It looks like they didn't finish checking the STX overview, description, specifications edits before putting the page online.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the offer, 

 I've just been told by one of the main Asus rep. in Australia that the ST is about to be shipped & that the shipping will take 4wks. 
 So it should be in most retail outlets at the beginning of November. I'm still trying to get a response on the expansion card..._

 

That would make sense considering the date for the US release.
 Glad you got the info you were after.


----------



## taiyoyuden

It looks like someone tried connecting the HDAV1.3 expansion card to the ST and it worked.

ASUSTeK Computer Inc.-Forum- Possibility of use H6 add-on card with Xonar ST


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, they are the same card. 
 The H6 DAC expansion card is the one that will be avialable for the ST. Currently it is avilable for the HDAV 1.3...
 Two members around here did the same thing. Pull the H6 cards from their HDAV 1.3's and use them with the ST.


----------



## taiyoyuden

With that, I don't understand why they won't bundle it with the ST or make it available as an optional purchase...


----------



## ROBSCIX

They will be offering for seperate purchase down the road.


----------



## jalyst

Oh I hadn't forgotten my Aussie diggers! LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I was wanting to find out more info before I posted there...

 I still don't know RRP for both items & whether there's mush interest in getting the expansion board shipped too. 
 I'm pushing for that!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skobb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yay!
 Why didn't you let me know on OCAU jalyst? haha
 I'll be hanging around this thread for some info on the expansion card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## IINOPP

Im guessing its difficult to compare, but which is better for headphones that dont need amping? 

 The ST or this

Lite DAC-AH CAA Mod MKII

 Music will be sourced from the computer.

 thanks


----------



## ROBSCIX

The ST and STX are quite good for their price range and are had to compete with for this amount of money.
 I cannot comment on that above unit as I have never heard it.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quite a bit from my tests. The LME49720HA models are dual channels and they soudn pretty good. There is also a single channel model, the LME49710HA which is single channel and needs another adapter sounds better. Both are great though._

 

Is this talking about replacing a dual channel op-amp with _two_ of its single channel counterpart & an adapter for better sound quality? If that's the case, can I replace all of them =o?


----------



## ROBSCIX

The LME49710HA modules are fairly wide so on this card they can only be used for the buffer. 
 There are ways to use the module for the I/V but you would have to use extension cables or a custom built adapter.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks like someone tried connecting the HDAV1.3 expansion card to the ST and it worked.

ASUSTeK Computer Inc.-Forum- Possibility of use H6 add-on card with Xonar ST_

 

Yea I fiqure it would thats why I suggest them to do it.I wouldnt mind having a add-on card for the HDAV that has banana plugs running outta it. So i don't need to unplug my headphones or my speakers from my ampilfer when I decide to use one or the other.Unless theres on/off switches that let you do that already.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, they will work fine as the H6 card meant for the ST is already on the market and shipped with the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe. The cards has RCA outputs not Banana jacks. Those are usually seen on amplifiers for connecting up speakers.


----------



## taiyoyuden

What do you guys think about starting a table with op-amp configurations? The table will include:

 User/tester with the configuration or recommendation
 Main uses (music genre, movies, games, etc.)
 STX or ST
 What op-amps used where
 Description
 Headphones/speakers used

 Each configuration can be numbered so that users can comment on it or have it linked to a specific post. Do you guys have any ideas on how to better organize the table or information items to add to the table? Good idea??


----------



## jalyst

Dude, that's an awesome idea, now for a site with a wiki....


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude, that's an awesome idea, now for a site with a wiki...._

 

Maybe Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase:Main Page - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase ?


----------



## jalyst

Good idea or maybe we could get the admins here to set one up?

 I won't have my card for another 4-5wks ...

 Even then I'm not sure I can convince the distributor to place orders for the h6  
 But if I can, I won't have it till 5-7wks from now!


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, they will work fine as the H6 card meant for the ST is already on the market and shipped with the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe. The cards has RCA outputs not Banana jacks. Those are usually seen on amplifiers for connecting up speakers._

 

Would you get 8 channels out this way?


----------



## genclaymore

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, they will work fine as the H6 card meant for the ST is already on the market and shipped with the HDAV 1.3 Deluxe. The cards has RCA outputs not Banana jacks. Those are usually seen on amplifiers for connecting up speakers._

 

I know there not banana jacks, i was saying I wouldnt mind if they made another add-on card with banana jacks with built in amplifiers on the card for that usage. So you can pick what you need the H6 card for etc.


----------



## phusg

There's a new (24th september) review of the Essence ST here. Nothing much to read IMHO, although some people might value the RightMark Audio Analyzser (RMAA) graphs. Main good news for me is that Asus are currently shipping review samples!

 In the subjective movie test (which I always thought were pretty pointless until I learned about jitter) he doesn't mention whether he listened through the analogue output or the S/PDIF. I assume the later as it doesn't sound like he had a H6 to hand and probably didn't listen to LOTR in stereo.

 Can anyone confirm whether the better clock on the Essence ST is also supposed to improve the S/PDIF output, or just the analogue output?


----------



## Bojamijams

Should improve S/PDIF too


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Telstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you get 8 channels out this way?_

 

Yes. The H6 DAC card that is currently avialbel for the HDAV 1.3 is the same card that is compatible with the ST. That si the same one I have for my ST Deluxe and the same one others in the forum have.


----------



## xHawky

Australian retailers for the ST are coming through 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Asus Xonar Essence ST - PCI,124dB SNR, 7.1CH [SNDASUXNRESB] - $242.00 : Megaware Computers, Australia :: Online Store

Asus Xonar Essence ST 124dB SNR 7.1 PCI 24Bit Headphone Amplifier (Xonar Essence ST)

Asus Xonar Essence ST 124dB SNR 7.1 PCI 24Bit Headphone Amplifier

 auspcmarket.com.au/index.php?redir=http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/show_product_info.php?input]Aus PC-Market Online eStore[product_code]=ACH-XONARESSENCEST&input[category_id]=

 He he, the rumours are true


----------



## ROBSCIX

...Yes, they are true.


----------



## taiyoyuden

where art thou essence of the tigah


----------



## jalyst

Sweet pre-orders available already, gunna get mine in quick!
 Pissed about the status of the H6 thus far though....

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xHawky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Australian retailers for the ST are coming through 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Asus Xonar Essence ST - PCI,124dB SNR, 7.1CH [SNDASUXNRESB] - $242.00 : Megaware Computers, Australia :: Online Store

Asus Xonar Essence ST 124dB SNR 7.1 PCI 24Bit Headphone Amplifier (Xonar Essence ST)

Asus Xonar Essence ST 124dB SNR 7.1 PCI 24Bit Headphone Amplifier

 auspcmarket.com.au/index.php?redir=http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/show_product_info.php?input]Aus PC-Market Online eStore[product_code]=ACH-XONARESSENCEST&input[category_id]=

 He he, the rumours are true 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## jalyst

where'd you see all them? 
 Did you use the static_ice comparison shopping engine?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xHawky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Australian retailers for the ST are coming through 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Asus Xonar Essence ST - PCI,124dB SNR, 7.1CH [SNDASUXNRESB] - $242.00 : Megaware Computers, Australia :: Online Store

Asus Xonar Essence ST 124dB SNR 7.1 PCI 24Bit Headphone Amplifier (Xonar Essence ST)

Asus Xonar Essence ST 124dB SNR 7.1 PCI 24Bit Headphone Amplifier

 auspcmarket.com.au/index.php?redir=http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/show_product_info.php?input]Aus PC-Market Online eStore[product_code]=ACH-XONARESSENCEST&input[category_id]=

 He he, the rumours are true 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## xHawky

Yep, staticICE - Compare Prices - Australia - Price comparison for gadgets and computer hardware


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes. The H6 DAC card that is currently avialbel for the HDAV 1.3 is the same card that is compatible with the ST. That si the same one I have for my ST Deluxe and the same one others in the forum have._

 

To be more accurate, I want to use the two channels on board (which are of higher quality) AND the 6 from the add-on card.
 It is possible, correct?

 Any attempt to mod the H6 (replacing opamps and the sort) so far?


----------



## Skobb

Awesome! Availability in Aus!!
 Think I'll wait a bit longer for the H6 to come out, as 5:1 is pretty much all I use..


----------



## cladisch

Quote:


 Can anyone confirm whether the better clock on the Essence ST is also supposed to improve the S/PDIF output, or just the analogue output? 
 

The CS2000 chip generates the master clock for the I²S output; the S/PDIF output is completely separate.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Telstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To be more accurate, I want to use the two channels on board (which are of higher quality) AND the 6 from the add-on card.
 It is possible, correct?_

 

I am unsure if you can use it the way your mentioning without using some type of special software. Using outputs seperatley is comon for recording apps but multimedia apps will see the card as surround not a card with multiple outputs. -If that makes sense.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Telstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any attempt to mod the H6 (replacing opamps and the sort) so far?_

 

Sure, I have had the H6 using different opamps from the beginning. Maybe I will snap a pic and show you what I am using on that card for opamps.
 The layout is really good as you can use seperate opamps for the center and subwoofer.


----------



## mojave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Using outputs seperatley is comon for recording apps but multimedia apps will see the card as surround not a card with multiple outputs. -If that makes sense.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

J. River Media Center allows you to use each pair of outputs as a separate zone with each playing the same thing or separate tracks, etc. Using both a soundcard and the onboard multichannel audio you can have up to 8 zones from your computer. If you are a DJ, you can have one zone going to your headphones and another zone going to the speakers.

 Telstar - with the H6, you can use the card as a regular 7.1 card.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well there you go! Usually it is recording applications that see a card as seperate stereo pairs. I haev yet to see a playre that allows that type of configuration althoguh you just mentioned one. I will have to check that out myself. Thx for the info.


----------



## winXPHE

hey all you indian audiophiles
 eres someone whose selling it shipped in india. before its even out in the US!!!
 prices pretty steep though
http://www.e/r/o/d/o/v.com/forums/as...0-a/25299.html


----------



## ROBSCIX

The card has been released in other places for quite awhile. Should be out in the US very soon.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Can't wait. I think I'll do quick switches between my x-fi and this to see the difference.


----------



## taiyoyuden

billie jean, is not my loverr... SHES JUST A GIRL...

 still waiting still waiting...


----------



## jalyst

gah, thanks a lot, now you've put that tune in my head! LOL


----------



## taiyoyuden

My headphones get here tomorrow and there is no sign of this card's availability in the U.S. yet. nooooooooooooooo


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My headphones get here tomorrow and there is no sign of this card's availability in the U.S. yet. nooooooooooooooo_

 

...So your headphones will be nice and burned in for the new card
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can't wait!


----------



## jalyst

I feel your pain  

 I'm confident we'll have the ST soon, but we're still in the dark here (Oz) about the H6.

 I'm being told we should know next week some time...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My headphones get here tomorrow and there is no sign of this card's availability in the U.S. yet. nooooooooooooooo_


----------



## taiyoyuden

Does the sound card matter for burn in? I thought I might be plaguing the headphones by using my X-Fi. Also I'm not sure what to loop for the burn in.


----------



## xHawky

That's what I thought, taiyoyuden, I've been using my realtek HD audio for the last month or so. Just preparing my cash and PC ready for when I can buy the new card.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Just loop some audio. There is massive deabte copncerning burn-in some beleive in it others do not. Some say the caps etc. will change their sound after a certain amount of time. Can hurt to try it....


----------



## macrog

My Xonar ST has finally arrived. I had it on backorder for so long I had given up hope. I have just put in 3 lme49720na opamps and I'm about to install it.

 I'm tempted to leave the stx card in the computer for comparison when run in. Anyone interested ?

 My STx is outperformed by my musiland monitor 02us. I'm hoping the st will be better.


----------



## dex85

^^maybe i'm wrong but i don't think you can use two asus soundcards at the same time. anyway let us know how ST compares to STX and monitor 02us


----------



## xHawky

Is it possible to use an inline volume controller from the headphone amplifier jack on the ST and have the headphones connected to the other end of the controller?

 If so, does the inline volume controller effect any quality between the ST and the headphones?

 And, if it does, which inline volume controller should I be looking for? I remember reading of a shure one but I forgot the model and can't find it ._.


----------



## macrog

Imaging definately better on the ST than STX which is just wrong in comparison. Not as good as musiland monitor 02us yet though. I'm hoping the st will run in to be better though. Same true for digital output.


----------



## jalyst

What the Kiwis got it before Oz?!? LOL it's prolly here now too.... 

 I just haven't checked as I'm still awaiting confirmation that an allocation for H6's has been approved by Asus.
 Once I know there's definitely a reasonable no. coming into the retail chain, then I'll look at local availability of the ST.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Xonar ST has finally arrived. I had it on backorder for so long I had given up hope. I have just put in 3 lme49720na opamps and I'm about to install it.._


----------



## jalyst

*delete*


----------



## oblivious

How would the ST compare with say the HiFiMan EF2 which would work out roughly the same price? Its a Amp/Dac combo. I'd be looking at using Grado 225i with either of these options.


----------



## taiyoyuden

I'm going with the ST because all my audio is on my computer, and I use it for movies and games as well. Also I'm in front of my computer a lot doing homework, reading, etc. 18 credit hours


----------



## jalyst

*delete*


----------



## oqvist

Why is the headphone out so much more livelier then the line out?

 edit: to answer myself more distortion it seems


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why is the headphone out so much more livelier then the line out?

 edit: to answer myself more distortion it seems 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If your using to to drive another amplifer YES. Your overdriving the next device. It would raise the SNR and add distortion for sure as you said.

 If your connecting a set of phonee to the line out, they would sound duller if your cans are high impedance as the line out is low power compared to the headphone output.


----------



## taiyoyuden

I'm confused, what's the line out?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm confused, what's the line out?_

 

The RCA outputs. They are what's called line outputs. They are within the industry standard for line level. Amps have line inputs and line outputs...etc. You would use these inputs and output for connecting up to other consumer gear such as CD players, receivers, EQ's..etc. The can amplifier is just that a output with more amplification for your headphones.

 Note, There is consumer line level which you would deal with when connecting consumer gear as was mentioned. There is also another standard which deals with line leve of professional recording gear. That is not really involved in this situation...


----------



## jalyst

If you intend to use the built-in amp then you use the headphone out.
 If you intend to use a dedicated amp then you use the line out (RCA outputs).

 If you've got a dedicated amp, you usually don't need to plug an amp into an amplified port.

 Find out more about your headphones and whether they "need" amplification.
 If they do what is the minimum (ohms) required to drive them?

 So long as the ST's built-in amp can output at that level (they should cover most cans), you'll be fine. 
 If you've got a dedicated amp & it's specced to cover your headphones, again you're good to go.



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why is the headphone out so much more livelier then the line out?

 edit: to answer myself more distortion it seems 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## jalyst

Once your ST's burnt in I'd be very interested in what your thoughts are between it and the Musiland...

 I've no real need for an external sound card at this stage.
 I want a high quality card that can be integrated into my HTPC/AVR.

 But longer term I'll want one; mainly because they're portable which means one can have quality sound output when travelling etc! ;-P

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Imaging definately better on the ST than STX which is just wrong in comparison. Not as good as musiland monitor 02us yet though. I'm hoping the st will run in to be better though. Same true for digital output._


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, post your results when you have time to compre the two.

 @Jalyst, if your going for HTPC, aren't you interested in Dolby-TrueHD and DTS-MA?


----------



## jalyst

Yes, for some applications, why?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@Jalyst, if your going for HTPC, aren't you interested in Dolby-TrueHD and DTS-MA?_


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Hey guys,

 I just want to offer you my burson dual opamps whit m-caps.
 If someone is interested, just PM!!!

 Thanks.


----------



## jalyst

I might be if my freakin card was here, still another 3wks.....


----------



## ROBSCIX

You have a ETA fron the dealer?


----------



## Skobb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I might be if my freakin card was here, still another 3wks....._

 

Does anybody have the H6??


----------



## ROBSCIX

I don't think it is available as a seperate product just yet.

 To tnoe, there is a few around that have full Deluxe version of the ST but they have got the H6 from the HDAV 1.3 bundle.


----------



## jalyst

What you already have the ST? Where did you get it from?

 I was told the ST & H6 aren't due now till about the 10th Nov.
 They finally freaking sent both of them approx. last Wed...

 Once they get here.... 
 It'll take up to a week for them to flow into the entire retail channel.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skobb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anybody have the H6??_


----------



## Skobb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What you already have the ST? Where did you get it from?

 I was told the ST & H6 aren't due now till about the 10th Nov.
 They finally freaking sent both of them approx. last Wed...

 Once they get here.... 
 It'll take up to a week for them to flow into the entire retail channel._

 

No, I'm actually not sure if I will be able to even afford the card anymore... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Just wondering because you said you were waiting on availability of the H6 before you made your order on the ST is all..


----------



## scorpionro

I'm kind of a noob at opamp rolling, but here are my first impressions (on xonar st ( foobar 2000 with wasapi - flacs ) -> rotel ra-05 -> b&w 685 ):

 <b>LT1364 on i/v & OPA2132P on buffer</b>
 - the sound was somewhat muddy, everything seemed messy (I've double checked that all the amps were properly seated)
 - the highs seemed a bit screechy
 - the bass was better (imo) than with the stock opamps
 - some pops could be heard (which I'm pretty sure that weren't there with the stock opamps) - maybe the lt1364 weren't stable ?
 <b>LT1364 on i/v & OPA2111KP on buffer</b>
 - the sound was still kind of messy, but a bit less
 - the highs seemed a bit screechy
 - the bass seemed to be better controlled
 - the same pops could be heard - maybe the lt1364 weren't stable ?
 <b>LT1057 on i/v & OPA2111KP on buffer</b>
 - the sound has cleared up
 - the bass is still powerfull and nicely controlled
 - most of the pops (if not all) seemed to have dissapeared , but I'll have to hear some more stuff before I can draw a conclusion

 *note : this are my personal impressions and by no means an objective point of view

 I still have a some OPAMPs I didn't test - OPA2277P, LT1358. Does anyone have any suggestions about combinations that should sound well ?


----------



## scorpionro

I'm kind of a noob at opamp rolling, but here are my first impressions (on xonar st ( foobar 2000 with wasapi - flacs ) -> rotel ra-05 -> b&w 685 ):

 <b>LT1364 on i/v & OPA2132P on buffer</b>
 - the sound was somewhat muddy, everything seemed messy (I've double checked that all the amps were properly seated)
 - the highs seemed a bit screechy
 - the bass was better (imo) than with the stock opamps
 - some pops could be heard (which I'm pretty sure that weren't there with the stock opamps) - maybe the lt1364 weren't stable ?
 <b>LT1364 on i/v & OPA2111KP on buffer</b>
 - the sound was still kind of messy, but a bit less
 - the highs seemed a bit screechy
 - the bass seemed to be better controlled
 - the same pops could be heard - maybe the lt1364 weren't stable ?
 <b>LT1057 on i/v & OPA2111KP on buffer</b>
 - the sound has cleared up
 - the bass is still powerfull and nicely controlled
 - most of the pops (if not all) seemed to have dissapeared , but I'll have to hear some more stuff before I can draw a conclusion

 *note : this are my personal impressions and by no means an objective point of view

 I still have some OPAMPs I didn't test - OPA2277P, LT1358. Does anyone have any suggestions about combinations that should sound well ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What you already have the ST? Where did you get it from?

 I was told the ST & H6 aren't due now till about the 10th Nov.
 They finally freaking sent both of them approx. last Wed...

 Once they get here.... 
 It'll take up to a week for them to flow into the entire retail channel._

 

Guess there was a bit of a delay. Atleast they are finally coming!


----------



## taiyoyuden

it's tooooooooooo late!!!!!!!!!




 i said it's too late!


----------



## jalyst

k, I'll let u know in the ocau thread once I have it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skobb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I'm actually not sure if I will be able to even afford the card anymore... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just wondering because you said you were waiting on availability of the H6 before you made your order on the ST is all.._


----------



## ROBSCIX

Did yo get the ETA from your local dealer of when they would be on the shelves?


----------



## jalyst

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/xo...ml#post6106957

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did yo get the ETA from your local dealer of when they would be on the shelves?_


----------



## taiyoyuden

So the ST+H6 Deluxe bundle will be available around mid-November in the U.S.?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/xo...ml#post6106957_

 

I mentioned around mid october for release I guess it takes a while for them to get to the dealers.
 Nov 10th isn't bad if they are sending out both ST and H6 cards.


----------



## taiyoyuden

I guess I can figure out how to live another 2-3 weeks...


----------



## jalyst

Sorry to let you down guys but this is the estimated time for it to get to distributors (not retailers) in Oz. 
 I wouldn't be surprised if it got delayed again though...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mentioned around mid october for release I guess it takes a while for them to get to the dealers.
 Nov 10th isn't bad if they are sending out both ST and H6 cards._


----------



## ZeNmAc

What happened to US release? October is gone...
 I may hold out and buy myself one for Christmas, but still, I can't wait for this to be released.

 I might have to re-read the last 10 pages of this thread, but what are the good opamps to try?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Guess we will have to see.


----------



## OpTicaL

Are we expecting a November release? Been waiting forever for this card.


----------



## jalyst

Well as I feared it got freakin delayed again...
 The H6 is already here apparently, but the ST is now estimated to be with distributor on the 20th, not the 11th.
 This is for people in Oz, no idea when it'll be in North America.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry to let you down guys but this is the estimated time for it to get to distributors (not retailers) in Oz. 
 I wouldn't be surprised if it got delayed again though..._


----------



## e6600

black friday release?
 sounds tasty


----------



## xHawky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *e6600* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_black friday release?
 sounds tasty_

 

Yummy evilness =p


----------



## Wfolio

In Singapore, many of my friends are also waiting for ST after reading all the enthusiastic posts here, but our local distributor told us that they will not bring in ST due to ….low demand?!....not sure how they carried out the survey …....


----------



## mojave

I just found out that you can't set the sample rate to 88.1 or 176.4 kHz in the card's driver settings. If I am using WASAPI exclusive mode for output with 88.1 or 176.4 kHz source material, will the card resample to the driver setting?


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well as I feared it got freakin delayed again...
 The H6 is already here apparently, but the ST is now estimated to be with distributor on the 20th, not the 11th.
 This is for people in Oz, no idea when it'll be in North America._

 

Man thats bad news for us ppl here in the US


----------



## jalyst

With these sort of things...
 You're at the mercy of the the local Asus agent and Distributor's level of competence.

 That's worrying news actually.... 
 Singapore is probably the main funnel point from where tech goods continue on to Australian's.

 And if Singapore's not getting the ST, maybe the guys down here will do a back-flip?! 
 Geez I hope not or I think I'll gun a few people down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wfolio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In Singapore, many of my friends are also waiting for ST after reading all the enthusiastic posts here, but our local distributor told us that they will not bring in ST due to ….low demand?!....not sure how they carried out the survey …...._


----------



## jalyst

If I had the card I might be able to help you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just found out that you can't set the sample rate to 88.1 or 176.4 kHz in the card's driver settings. If I am using WASAPI exclusive mode for output with 88.1 or 176.4 kHz source material, will the card resample to the driver setting?_


----------



## krisno

Has anyone heard the PICO DAC vs Xonar Essence ST or STX? I am using AKG K 701 and not sure which I should trigger on. I have had a hard time finding anything that is not harsh on the AKGs. I have this tube amp allready, so either ditch the amp and use Xonar ST directly or the PICO... which of those dacs is the LEAST bright and 'harsh'? Anyone ??

 Its intereseting, no matter how hard I try, i have never been able to replicate the same smoothness and lovely sound from a computer as from even cheapish CD players. I dont know why. If its optical in a X-can V3 or a external USB dac. It just doesnt seem possible. It somehow becomes harshes via the PC, and looses som of the magic.

 Anyways, PICO vs Xonar ST or STX?? anyone , please

 Kris


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## krisno

REMOVE* duplicate


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## BoilermakerFan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone heard the PICO DAC vs Xonar Essence ST or STX? I am using AKG K 701 and not sure which I should trigger on. I have had a hard time finding anything that is not harsh on the AKGs. I have this tube amp allready, so either ditch the amp and use Xonar ST directly or the PICO... which of those dacs is the LEAST bright and 'harsh'? Anyone ??

 Its intereseting, no matter how hard I try, i have never been able to replicate the same smoothness and lovely sound from a computer as from even cheapish CD players. I dont know why. If its optical in a X-can V3 or a external USB dac. It just doesnt seem possible. It somehow becomes harshes via the PC, and looses som of the magic.

 Anyways, PICO vs Xonar ST or STX?? anyone , please

 Kris_

 

First, I'll assume your using a quality front end like Foobar and using FLAC files, otherwise part of the issue is the MP3, or even worse, AAC formats. 

 Optical also tends to be lower quality out of a PC than RCA SPDIF or USB. It's as if the optical was added just to be a "me too" feature and they cut corners. 

 Personally I would go for the PICO unless you really need the ADC input or the H6 riser later. Set up FLAC files and do a little tube rolling until you find a good combo with the K701s, but my previous K601s sounded fine straight out of my Audigy 2 ZS breakout box as long as I played FLAC files, however MP3s, even at 320kbs, were just awful.


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## jalyst

never heard of the pico, is there a fair bit of buzz around it?

 *edit*
 Ah I see, one of those external dacs....
 I can see some good reasons for having a quality USB DAC so I prolly will end-up getting one eventually.
 But for the time being I'm wanting an internal dac, as the idea is to have an AIO HTPC/AVR.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone heard the PICO DAC vs Xonar Essence ST or STX? I am using AKG K 701 and not sure which I should trigger on. I have had a hard time finding anything that is not harsh on the AKGs. I have this tube amp allready, so either ditch the amp and use Xonar ST directly or the PICO... which of those dacs is the LEAST bright and 'harsh'? Anyone ??

 Its intereseting, no matter how hard I try, i have never been able to replicate the same smoothness and lovely sound from a computer as from even cheapish CD players. I dont know why. If its optical in a X-can V3 or a external USB dac. It just doesnt seem possible. It somehow becomes harshes via the PC, and looses som of the magic.

 Anyways, PICO vs Xonar ST or STX?? anyone , please

 Kris_


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## krisno

But the Xonar ST, is not harsh, even on AKG K 701? It is sweet, but detailed, or does it ruin lower quality music like games, ripped movies etc?

 If PICO is sweeter, I guess that is the choice, though ST is less clutter etc..


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## lxxl

My wait soon be over, I can take order for these in Canada already, at NCIX.com. I guess I'll be getting these as a xmas gift


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## jalyst

If the source material is poor quality a good quality SC/DAC is only going to reveal the flaws, not hide them.
 Having said that most modern Games and properly ripped Movies will be fine if they're in a good format.

 There'll be differences between the two dacs in terms of how they reveal detail of the source material. 
 I can't really comment on the differences as I have no basis for comparison...

 The differences (if at all) in-terms of overall SQ superiority won't be huge.
 So I'd make your choice on the basis of:

 1) Which form-factor (external USB or internal PCI/e) is more ideal for you
 2) Is the amp built into the ST sufficient for you headphones.

 You can always add a 3rd party amp if you're not happy with the ST's.

 That's a nice thing about the ST...
 If you have headphones that require heavy amplification (it should be fine for most)... 
 Then you don't have to worry about an amp. 

 I'm not sure about the Pico, does it have an amp? Don't think so...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But the Xonar ST, is not harsh, even on AKG K 701? It is sweet, but detailed, or does it ruin lower quality music like games, ripped movies etc?

 If PICO is sweeter, I guess that is the choice, though ST is less clutter etc.._


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## jalyst

Lucky buggers! what about us folk down under!?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 *edit*
 Doesn't look like its actually available, just ready for order...
 Sounds like you guys are in about the same phase as us Antipodeans (Aus/Nz)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lxxl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My wait soon be over, I can take order for these in Canada already, at NCIX.com. I guess I'll be getting these as a xmas gift 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


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## krisno

jalyst... thanks for reply. I hear that ST synergize well with AKG, and I got this X-can V2 tube amp I can connect if I want...

 So the difference between pico and asus ST will be neglible?? ok... well jalyst, of course - then there is nothing to worry about. I will get the ST. Cheaper, less cable etc.

 K


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## lxxl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Doesn't look like its actually available, just ready for order..._

 

At NCIX in Canada, when it shows ready for order, it wouldn't take much longer before they'll have a shipment. This should also gives the idea for people from US because NCIX also have a US Depot.

 My plan is to have it for xmas anyway so...


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## jalyst

Well some audiophiles may drone on about huge differences, but it's really a subjective thing. 

 See if you can test the two with your headphones before buying, that's the best way to know if there's a big difference from your pov. 
 I doubt there will be.... 

 With certain subject matter there may be noticeable differences, but I doubt one could definitively say one is better than the other. 
 They'd just be different or stronger/weaker in different areas...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the difference between pico and asus ST will be neglible??_


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## krisno

right... I will run for the asus ST then.... but fatigue is something I dont like and AKG K 701 are fatiguing in itself. Have you tried the ST?

 I agree, differences are smaller than reviews tend to show. But I must say - CDP vs computer audio. Big difference. I am sorry it is like that. Even cheap CDPs are no match for computer audio, even when using 10k dacs.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/pi...1/#post6145383

 K


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## oqvist

Krisno it seems you want another pair of headphones. But yes the Essence ST with the stock opamps is great for the K701. Roll off the treble some and give some more bass body then most other DACs/amps I have tried. 

 Differences are as mentioned only huge in an audiophiles ears. I have my receivers DAC, my Essence ST, Elite Pro and Keces I could be happy with either one currently. 

 I am selling the Essence ST though since I preferr the Keces for my stereo listening. Elite Pro gives me 5.1 analogue outs which is better then using dolby digital live on the Essence and I have dedicated headphone amplifiers anyway


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## krisno

May I ask why you prefer the Keces? I read earlier that you loved the ST with AKG K 701. I am afraid the ST is just too detailed...

 Yes AKG K 701s metallic sound is probably part of the problem - but I dont know of any substistute. I really dont want to buy the Sennheider HD600 - they are so darn old. Sad they dont release a lower end Hd 800 version or something. And Grado is not perfect either, though alot more musical than 701.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_May I ask why you prefer the Keces? I read earlier that you loved the ST with AKG K 701. I am afraid the ST is just too detailed...

 Yes AKG K 701s metallic sound is probably part of the problem - but I dont know of any substistute. I really dont want to buy the Sennheider HD600 - they are so darn old. Sad they dont release a lower end Hd 800 version or something. And Grado is not perfect either, though alot more musical than 701._

 

Too detailed?
 The cards are very clean and detailed but I cannot see it being a issue with these phones. You could change the opamps to modify the response to be a better watch for your phones, i fyou find the card and phones aren't a good mix. You can also use an EQ..etc.
 The point is, this is a source. If you have an external can amplifier that you like and is a good mix with your cans connect that up.


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## oqvist

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_May I ask why you prefer the Keces? I read earlier that you loved the ST with AKG K 701. I am afraid the ST is just too detailed...

 Yes AKG K 701s metallic sound is probably part of the problem - but I dont know of any substistute. I really dont want to buy the Sennheider HD600 - they are so darn old. Sad they dont release a lower end Hd 800 version or something. And Grado is not perfect either, though alot more musical than 701._

 

The problem is I have other headphones I enjoy more then the K701 simple as that.

 As for the Keces as mentioned the soundstaging primarily... I preferr the bass too with my systems it tend to be more integrated. K701 as mentioned performs better on the Essence ST due to the above but in reverse 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... Things that works well with some headphones doesn´t work that well with others.

 You should perhaps try the German Maestro 450 Pro or 435S. I haven´t heard the HD 600 but they are a lot better then the HD 650 I would say. They are a bit rolled off but not quite as severr and they always sound natural. Forgiving yet quite detailed. Darkness be gone but they aren´t as bright as the K701 either in between. If you change ear pads you can get them about as bright though it´s like reviewing different headphones lol
 Make sure to apply to the US och EU loan programme if it applies to your country of course


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is I have other headphones I enjoy more then the K701 simple as that._

 

Just for my own information, are the K701's too bright?


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## krisno

They are not that musical really... kind of metallic sound, not wooden..... a bright amp makes them painful in the long run. But I really dont know of others which is better. A lower cost sennheiser HD800 would definetly be what I want, but it does not exist. Then you have the ultrasone 9 ed.


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## oqvist

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just for my own information, are the K701's too bright?_

 

They can certainly be bright. Loudness wars can be very apparent on them so you better stick to classical or such if you are sensitive to high treble. But they just don´t get much head time anymore so I am kind of forgetting how they sound a bit.

 German Maestro 435S is no lower fidelity then the K701s, neither is my ultrasones and I do expect Beyer and others to make great headphones as well. 

 Since you don´t find the K701 musical do you use them for mixing professionally or?

 HD 800 is getting similar complaints as the K701 and DT 880 too regarding metallic treble sibilance at such for some. Ultrasones ED9/900 may not be the answer either from what I read in your case a gamble on the ED 8 would perhaps pay off better... But then you are still paying way to much for a set of headphones. German Maestro 435S or as mentioned the lower end senns perhaps if you want something that never sounds metallic. Of course you could get headphones with wooden cups as well but then you get a wooden colouration instead


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## jalyst

Have you looked at any from the Audio-Technica range? 
 Some of them are beautifully crafted/balanced imo...

 Most of the brands being mentioned are ones that are more readily available in NA/Europe
 Whereas AT is one of the brands more readily available in Australia/Asia, not sure where you're from.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are not that musical really... kind of metallic sound, not wooden..... a bright amp makes them painful in the long run. But I really dont know of others which is better. A lower cost sennheiser HD800 would definetly be what I want, but it does not exist. Then you have the ultrasone 9 ed._


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## jalyst

the ST has 5.1 analogue-out with the daughter board or are you talking about something else?

 Also correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe you "have" to use the amp on the ST.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Elite Pro gives me 5.1 analogue outs which is better then using dolby digital live on the Essence and I have dedicated headphone amplifiers anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


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## jalyst

Just Googled Keces....
 Some of the Chinese OEM's are really starting to get a name for themselves in this area nowadays aren't they?! 
 Used to be the sole domain of Europe/Japan/NA


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## oqvist

Yes tons of good stuff coming from over there and for reasonable prices as well! 
 Keces sells by ebay if I am remembering correctly. I have the 131 mk 2.

 The ST is supposed to get the H6 daughter card but they are simply taking to much time! I don´t trust it will ever be there and it uses cheaper DACs anyway so I can as well sell that. Not saying that those DACs are bad but the ones on the Elite Pro is certainly working superbly as well. And having full EAX support is nice even though very few new games actually use it.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes tons of good stuff coming from over there and for reasonable prices as well! 
 Keces sells by ebay if I am remembering correctly. I have the 131 mk 2.

 The ST is supposed to get the H6 daughter card but they are simply taking to much time! I don´t trust it will ever be there and it uses cheaper DACs anyway so I can as well sell that. Not saying that those DACs are bad but the ones on the Elite Pro is certainly working superbly as well. And having full EAX support is nice even though very few new games actually use it._

 

The DAC's are actually measured for about 120dB SNR and dynamic range. They are not quite as high spec'd as the main channel DAC's but they are not cheap models either.
 To note, a few guys in here already reported they heard the H6 is coming from local dealers.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They can certainly be bright. Loudness wars can be very apparent on them so you better stick to classical or such if you are sensitive to high treble. But they just don´t get much head time anymore so I am kind of forgetting how they sound a bit.

 German Maestro 435S is no lower fidelity then the K701s, neither is my ultrasones and I do expect Beyer and others to make great headphones as well. 

 Since you don´t find the K701 musical do you use them for mixing professionally or?

 HD 800 is getting similar complaints as the K701 and DT 880 too regarding metallic treble sibilance at such for some. Ultrasones ED9/900 may not be the answer either from what I read in your case a gamble on the ED 8 would perhaps pay off better... But then you are still paying way to much for a set of headphones. German Maestro 435S or as mentioned the lower end senns perhaps if you want something that never sounds metallic. Of course you could get headphones with wooden cups as well but then you get a wooden colouration instead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't use them personally. I was just curious what people thought of them based on the postings. I have never heard them myself, just curious.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the ST has 5.1 analogue-out with the daughter board or are you talking about something else?

 Also correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe you "have" to use the amp on the ST._

 

The ST Deluxe (w/ H6) supports full 7.1 channels. You right in that you do not have to use the amplifier for anything. If your cans don't need the extra power you can just use the line outs. The Line out produces higher spec'd sound and IMO sounds better anyway, that is subjective though.
 There are also quite a few guys that use the ST(X) as source and connect up their own can amplifiers to the line outs.


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## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The ST Deluxe (w/ H6) supports full 7.1 channels._

 

Anybody knows if the H6 card has swappable opamps as well?


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## BoilermakerFan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They can certainly be bright. Loudness wars can be very apparent on them so you better stick to classical or such if you are sensitive to high treble. But they just don´t get much head time anymore so I am kind of forgetting how they sound a bit.

 German Maestro 435S is no lower fidelity then the K701s, neither is my ultrasones and I do expect Beyer and others to make great headphones as well. 

 Since you don´t find the K701 musical do you use them for mixing professionally or?

 HD 800 is getting similar complaints as the K701 and DT 880 too regarding metallic treble sibilance at such for some. Ultrasones ED9/900 may not be the answer either from what I read in your case a gamble on the ED 8 would perhaps pay off better... But then you are still paying way to much for a set of headphones. German Maestro 435S or as mentioned the lower end senns perhaps if you want something that never sounds metallic. Of course you could get headphones with wooden cups as well but then you get a wooden colouration instead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have cetoole's MB Quart QP400s here, which are now the German Maestro 400S. I haven't heard the K701s, but I had the K601s and prefer the sound sig of the QP400s. The 400s are a little brighter than the 601s, but not harsh in anyway. The 400s really trump the 601s in the low octaves though. I would have bought the QP400s if I hadn't come across a pair of K401s that just blew me away. These K401s have great bass of the 400s with smoother, less forward highs. All said though, the QP400s were much, much more forgiving on lower quality sources than the K601s. I'd love to hear the GM 435s too, I'm sure it's spectacular.


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## ROBSCIX

Yes, three for every stereo pair. Same as the base card. 






 What is really cool about that design is you can use a different opamp for the Center and the subwoofer. Well for I/V anyway, you would need an adapter to split the buffer between the two. Here is a better picture with close up:


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## ROBSCIX

I think it would be great that when they officially relase the H6 for use with the ST they add another EMI/RFI sheilding to the extension card also.


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## oqvist

Yes German Maestros certainly make some superb headphones. K401s I didn´t even know existed interesting.

 The 400S was certainly not bad but I didn´t enjoy them nearly as much as the 450 Pro or 435S... Even though they are supposed to be the most "musical" whereas the others are more for studio use I suppose. Have you applied to the German Maestro US loan program?

 As for the H6 card I guess I will see. I have the ST on sale but if I still have it when it´s released I will probably have to try it even though its another fee


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## BoilermakerFan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes German Maestros certainly make some superb headphones. K401s I didn´t even know existed interesting.

 The 400S was certainly not bad but I didn´t enjoy them nearly as much as the 450 Pro or 435S... Even though they are supposed to be the most "musical" whereas the others are more for studio use I suppose. Have you applied to the German Maestro US loan program?

 As for the H6 card I guess I will see. I have the ST on sale but if I still have it when it´s released I will probably have to try it even though its another fee 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

The K401s are vintage, early to mid-'80s IIRC. IMHO, they spank the newer K601/701/702s. They'll be heading to Fitz for a recable and K601 pad swap soon, along with their sister the vintage K141s with Sextett drivers.

 The bright highs kind of smack you in the face with the QP400s if you put them on after listening to other cans, but the ears settle quickly and then they just become great sounding cans. I can listen to them for hours without fatigue. They really excel at low listening levels too, probably the best cans I've heard at very low, late night levels or quiet office time cans. 

 I haven't applied for the GM loan program and didn't know about it. I've gone in a different direction and migrated towards vintage orthodynamics, electrets, and electrostats so I'm actually going to be selling off my other AKGs except for the K401s and K141s along with the rest of the dynamics including the QP805s as I have two sets of their loose drivers for custom headphones. I'm a DIY'er and modder, so I have a lot of loose drivers needing homes. If I counted or listed those cans, my sig would bee too big, probably a dozen pairs in cue for customs. 

 I do hope to listen to the German Maestro higher end cans at CanJam '10 though. 

 Just twiddling my thumbs waiting for the ST Deluxe with H6 to hit US shores before I build a new PC with it.


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## Telstar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, three for every stereo pair. Same as the base card. 




_

 

Good.
 I hope i can use the 6 channels independently since i have a PAIR of subwoofers and no center channel.

 I would need 6 singke channel opamps, according to the picture, correct?
 That's getting expensive (i plan to use only Burson discretes). I can go cheap only on 2 channels that will go to the subwoofers (20-60hz).


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## ROBSCIX

No, Both the base and H6 card actually use dual channel opamps.
 If you look to the left side of the card and look back, you see the small surface mount chip at the back. That is the DAC, it is a current output part so the design needs a current to Voltage converter section. The design is a differential input desing so you need two dual channel opamps. That is the matched pair of JRC2114D's, these feed into a single dual channel opamps with is a integrator/buffer, this opamp takes the input from both sides and integrates it and then buffers it for output to the RCA output. This same DAC/opamp setup is present for each stereo pair (L & R).

 Hope that helps.


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## krisno

Well - I dont need amp with ASUS ST.... but I need the amp if I want tube sound. The amp is tube.

 expensive headphone amps are a joke, my HP analog out drives my akg k 701 almost as good as a Burson Discrete headphone amp. 'almost'.... the casual listener wont hear much difference. Tubes though make a difference.

 Well, I just want a smooth dac, and least clutter , and asus st will probably deliver. The nalso i can choose if I want tube or direct amp from soundcard.

 The headphone amp part of hifi is the most overhyped segment ever. The average user has no need for external amping hehe... but lets not discuss this. I am sure, ampwise, ST vs Burson full discrete, i wont hear a difference. The difference is in the DAC + headphone itself...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well - I dont need amp with ASUS ST.... but I need the amp if I want tube sound. The amp is tube.

 expensive headphone amps are a joke, my HP analog out drives my akg k 701 almost as good as a Burson Discrete headphone amp. 'almost'.... the casual listener wont hear much difference. Tubes though make a difference.

 Well, I just want a smooth dac, and least clutter , and asus st will probably deliver. The nalso i can choose if I want tube or direct amp from soundcard.

 The headphone amp part of hifi is the most overhyped segment ever. The average user has no need for external amping hehe... but lets not discuss this. I am sure, ampwise, ST vs Burson full discrete, i wont hear a difference. The difference is in the DAC + headphone itself..._

 

I am a fan of the tube gear also. If you have your favorite can amp then use that. IMO it is preferable anyway as it give you more options for opamp rolling as you can change all three if you use the line out. I find the line out sounds a better also. The measurement show it is of higher quality also.


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## jalyst

I've been told the H6 is already here in Oz, it's just the card we're waiting on.
 Should be with distributor next Fri (AustEST), unless it's delayed again...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes tons of good stuff coming from over there and for reasonable prices as well! 
 Keces sells by ebay if I am remembering correctly. I have the 131 mk 2.

 The ST is supposed to get the H6 daughter card but they are simply taking to much time! I don´t trust it will ever be there and it uses cheaper DACs anyway so I can as well sell that. Not saying that those DACs are bad but the ones on the Elite Pro is certainly working superbly as well. And having full EAX support is nice even though very few new games actually use it._


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## ROBSCIX

Based on postings it seems most were worried about the H6 not the base card. 
 Well it is good to know the H6 is out in your area, that would mean the ST is not far behind.


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## krisno

Before I buy this card, can anyone else confirm that AKG K 701 and ASUS Essence ST/STX is just great match? THE 701 is very harsh on alot of equipment...


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am sure, ampwise, ST vs Burson full discrete, i wont hear a difference. The difference is in the DAC + headphone itself..._

 

The X-Meridian 7.1 Thread [Text View] - Page 7 - AVS Forum
  Quote:


 Everybody -in different locations, at different times, without knowing from each other- told the same story, that they found the differences between opamps more important than the differences in dac chips.


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## krisno

OK.... well I have personally owned the Burson amp - fully discrete solution. I agree it was good! - but my laptop analog out amplification is not that big difference...

 OPamps are big difference, I didnt mean the dac chip itself, but rather, a dac(based on discrete or opamp) makes bigger hearable difference than the amplification. Amplification is overrated as mania in hifi


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## leeperry

well, nothing sounds better as final buffer than the old/new burson chip IMHO...I've tried all the top IC's pretty much on several soundcards(except those that cost the price of a burson 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), and my Audio-GD Earth(same chip as the old Burson) crushes them all....like a litteral night and day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 a friend of mine also put one as final buffer on his STX, and he's looooooooving it.

 OTOH, if you don't hear much difference...sure, put some OPA2132/LM4562 and focus on the music for a change


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK.... well I have personally owned the Burson amp - fully discrete solution. I agree it was good! - but my laptop analog out amplification is not that big difference...

 OPamps are big difference, I didnt mean the dac chip itself, but rather, a dac(based on discrete or opamp) makes bigger hearable difference than the amplification. Amplification is overrated as mania in hifi_

 

Opamps can modify the sound signature of your gear quite noticably.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, nothing sounds better as final buffer than the old/new burson chip IMHO...I've tried all the top IC's pretty much on several soundcards(except those that cost the price of a burson 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), and my Audio-GD Earth(same chip as the old Burson) crushes them all....like a litteral night and day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 a friend of mine also put one as final buffer on his STX, and he's looooooooving it.

 OTOH, if you don't hear much difference...sure, put some OPA2132/LM4562 and focus on the music for a change 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Many have tested and use the discrete with both the STX and the ST according to postings and discussions in the PM's. Glad you enjoy them so much but they are nothing new and your far from the only one using them in these threads...


----------



## krisno

Yes, I thought of installing the burson / moon discrete in the ST sound card... but would they work replacing the I/V conversion opamp, or just a replacement for the lineout opamps? As far as I have understood, the I/V is the last step before the headphone out?

 Also it does not seem to easy to replace it.... and I agree. The Burson was good - no doubt. Extremly deep and wide soundstage; and sweet sounding... alot sweeter than my V2 mod tube amp.. But I will think the difference was not worth the price. Its small.


----------



## leeperry

IME and from what some pros told me, they work great as final buffer but not that great on DAC output(I/V included)...they give a tubey euphonic sound, but beware of double dip 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the diff is anything but small, but the $2.25 headphones amp on the Essence cards will be wasting their SQ anyway...line-out FTW!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I thought of installing the burson / moon discrete in the ST sound card... but would they work replacing the I/V conversion opamp, or just a replacement for the lineout opamps? As far as I have understood, the I/V is the last step before the headphone out?

 Also it does not seem to easy to replace it.... and I agree. The Burson was good - no doubt. Extremly deep and wide soundstage; and sweet sounding... alot sweeter than my V2 mod tube amp.. But I will think the difference was not worth the price. Its small._

 

I would suggest for you to use the Earth for I/V as they are the most neutral of the units from Audio-GD. 
 They are also the stock I/V opamps on many of Audio-GD's units.
 The Moon is unstable in the I/V section of thse cards and actually a few others I have heard about.
 The I/V is the stage before the headphones amplifier chip. Alternately you can go to the line outs and you have the I/V section aswell as the buffer opamp. There is quite a few guys around that are using discrete with both the STX and ST..


----------



## krisno

Has any of you tried the PICO dac? It seems very nice, and I often wonder if I should get the PICO vs asus, as I have this highly modded blackgate X-can V2 amp. But still, the Asus is less clutter.

 And as I always say - brands like Sony, Asus, Dell, whatever - they have economics of scale. You get ALOT more for your money, than from smaller producers, no matter what. If Headamp made the ASUS soundcard it would probably cost 10k. So I presume the Asus is alot more value than the PICO.

 But comments like ULTRA detailed - and fatiguing in the long run, I dont like about the Asus, if its true .. hehe. thanks guys, you are great.


----------



## leeperry

they started saving money by putting the lowest quality possible of DIP8 sockets I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 some ppl have been adventurous enough to swap them, but the Essence cards carry a 4 layers PCB...so better have brass balls to try it: Xonar Essence STX shipped with the original cheap IC sockets

 noone's really compared these cards to real external gear, mostly coz they target different kinds of ppl..


----------



## Lavcat

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_they started saving money by putting the lowest quality possible of DIP8 sockets I guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I was glad to see Auzentech use a machine pin socket for their opamp. Speaking as a former manufacturer of computer peripherals, you don't save in the long run by using leaf sockets.

 Asus is pretty successful though. They probably assume no one will ever change the opamps.

 (Disclaimer: I use Asus motherboards and I like them.)


----------



## leeperry

I also use a P5K Premium mobo and love it, but yeah...all the other manufacturers go machined(Auzen/HT Omega/AudioTrak)....saving a few cents on cheapo DIP8 sockets was a bold move. I even had to send back my first ST for RMA as many pins on one of the DIP8 socket were tarnished to death 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I dunno for Auzen, but the HD2 sockets are not gold plated and a bit loose(a far cry from the non-machined on the Essence cards, though) but on the Claro Halo they are tight as hell and the inside is gold plated....nice to see they didn't go cheap..


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Lavcat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was glad to see Auzentech use a machine pin socket for their opamp. Speaking as a former manufacturer of computer peripherals, you don't save in the long run by using leaf sockets.

 Asus is pretty successful though. They probably assume no one will ever change the opamps.

 (Disclaimer: I use Asus motherboards and I like them.)_

 

I have been working with opamps on soundcards for many years and have seen many different grades of sockets used in various designs. Provided your getting a sturdy connection the sockets make little difference from a electrical point of view. There is also zero difference from a sonic standpoint aswell...
 However, If your going to be changing out many opamps though the pressed units will would possibly fail earlier then the machined sockets.
 So, if your an avid opamps swapper you might want to consider changing out the sockets for higher grade units.


----------



## Alexander01

What opamp gives the deepest and widest soundstage with the Xonar ST?


----------



## ROBSCIX

There are many that provide really wide soundstage. What have you tried so far?
 Many in the STX thread enjoyed the LME49720's you might want to try those.
 The discretes are also very good for imaging and wide soudnstage as there are many that use the ST and STX with discrete opamps.

 Are you using the headphone output or the line output?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What opamp gives the deepest and widest soundstage with the Xonar ST?_

 

I'd say LT1124ACN8(more width) or AudioGD Earth(more depth)...they make for a nice mix


----------



## Alexander01

I do not have the ST yet. It's still not available in Holland. I had the STX for a week with stock opamps but it didn't sounded good to me. It was too clear and very load. I couldn't turn the volume up becuase the sound was to load for my ears. It lacked the smoothness and wide/deep imaging I had from the X-FI Titanium. X-Fi Titanium also has better Bass Texture and positional audio. The STX had such a clear load sound that I returned it. I just couldn't enjoy it when listening to music (I'm listening to 320kbps MP3's btw). 

 Maybe the ST with the jitter removing chip has better imaging/positional audio and smoothness. This is important for me. If your brains are overwelmed with loud sounds the position/imaging must be very good if you do not want to get tired of listening.

 X-Fi Titanium is less clear but I think it has a more luxury sound with better imaging/stage/positional audio that is more comfortable to listen too.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Weel the STX is definately clear and detailed and might not be the best mix for some headphones. What you need is a "warmer" opamp, which would essentially remove some of the brightness and edgyness your hearing. There are many chips that would give you what your after. 
 Considering your using phones I am guessing your using the hepadhoens output. This means you can only change the I/V conversion opamps.
 Some units that might fit your needs are, The LT1057, OPA2134,OPA2227...I will post some more after I look through my list. You have only had this card for a very short time and it might take awhile for you to get used to the new signature or maybe the stock oapmps are just not a good mix with your headphones. Did you adjust the gain of the headphones amplifer properly?

 The Titanium uses what some call "generic" opamps, many of these are warmer and not as detailed but can produce good sound in the right circuits.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had the STX for a week with stock opamps but it didn't sound good to me. It was too clear and very loud. I couldn't turn the volume up because the sound was too loud for my ears. It lacked the smoothness and wide/deep imaging I had from the X-FI Titanium. X-Fi Titanium also has better Bass Texture and positional audio. The STX had such a clear loud sound that I returned it. [..]

 Maybe the ST with the jitter removing chip has better imaging/positional audio and smoothness._

 

I've owned both, they both carry the same agressive & loud sound...look elsewhere if you want something laid back and mellow..


----------



## Alexander01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Weel the STX is definately clear and detailed and might not be the best mix for some headphones. What you need is a "warmer" opamp, which would essentially remove some of the brightness and edgyness your hearing. There are many chips that would give you what your after. 
 Considering your using phones I am guessing your using the hepadhoens output. This means you can only change the I/V conversion opamps.
 Some units that might fit your needs are, The LT1057, OPA2134,OPA2227...I will post some more after I look through my list. You have only had this card for a very short time and it might take awhile for you to get used to the new signature or maybe the stock oapmps are just not a good mix with your headphones. Did you adjust the gain of the headphones amplifer properly?

 The Titanium uses what some call "generic" opamps, many of these are warmer and not as detailed but can produce good sound in the right circuits._

 

I Think you are right. The sound of the STX was indeed very neutral while the X-Fi was more warmer.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've owned both, they both carry the same agressive & loud sound...look elsewhere if you want something laid back and mellow.._

 

Is it not possible to do this with warmer opamps?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it not possible to do this with warmer opamps?_

 

the Nichicon caps are known to be very edgy and agressive, especially in the upper spectrum.

 even w/ discrete op-amps, it still sounds agressive and loud...I guess it'd appeal very much to ppl who listen to rock music or whatever agressive music(techno etc), and the HP amp is also agressive.

 the only diff is that the stereo image is much clearer, going ST<>STX a few times makes you realize how much of a big mess the stereo coherence is on the STX.


----------



## Alexander01

Well, I mainly listen to Trance and with the STX this was just too loud and indeed an agressive upper spectrum (sharp). If I listen Trance with the X-Fi I could fall in sleep with it while STX keeps me awake with it's load sound and sharp edges in the upper spectrum. So I could better stay with the X-Fi and leave alone the ST?


----------



## leeperry

luckily there's more to soundcards than just X-Fi or Xonar...just try them all until you're satisfied(some want it sharp, some others mellow, some in-between), that's what I did....then fine tune w/ op-amps of your choice


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I mainly listen to Trance and with the STX this was just too loud and indeed an agressive upper spectrum (sharp). If I listen Trance with the X-Fi I could fall in sleep with it while STX keeps me awake with it's load sound and sharp edges in the upper spectrum. So I could better stay with the X-Fi and leave alone the ST?_

 

If you use EQ, how do you have the EQ set?
 What setting is the gain on the headphones amplifier set to?
 Opamps can change many aspects othe spectrum. This card just might not be a good mix with your cans. Perhaps there are other cards out there that might be a better match for you.


----------



## Alexander01

I always listen to Trance with this Equalizer preset in WMP:






 More lower bass and less upperbass. And alot of upper treble makes it pretty clear. By default the X-Fi is a bit muddy and boomy due its warm caracter I think. The bass is bloated and too boomy. And there is no clear high spectrum. I always listen with this preset in WMP and I really enjoy it. Big impactual bottom end with tight mid bass and a clear overall sound due the 16khz treble boost. This treble boost causes no sharp treble. It has no sharp edges. It just makes the music more clearer. If I do this with the STX EQ it also makes the music more clearer but also alot sharper. This is probably because the STX has already a sharp upper spectrum from itself. If there are opamps that will hide this sharp upper spectrum and make it more smooth so I can fully turn up the 16khz with 20db I would be alot happier with STX. I like it how clear the STX can be but with the stock opamps it's just too loud, sharp and agressive. It also need a better bottom-end texture. If turn up the 31hz of the STX EQ with 20db and turn down the 125 and 250 I do not get that big textured sub-bass like with the X-Fi and the WMP equalizer.


----------



## ROBSCIX

If this is the EQ you used for your X-fi and now you applied that to a card with better high end like a STX that might be why you have such an agressive treble heavy sound.
 That EQ is cutting much of your bass. That is not something I would use but if you like it great. Personally I don't even use EQ...

 What gain level is your headphone amplifier set for?
 There is a sub panel in the STX that you can bring up when you select headphones....what level is it set for?
 Do you know what I am refering to?


----------



## Alexander01

I found the 300-600 ohm option the best one for my headphone (which is 32ohm). I have the volume between 3 and 7 with the 300-600 ohm setting. I noticed more expression and dynamic while using the 300-600 ohm setting.

 I'm cutting the 62 and 125 hz because i don't like too much upper bass. But I like alot low end bass. If I boost the 31hz and I get a more sub-bass caracter that I like alot. I can't have enough sub bass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But the STX has a sharper high spectrum then the X-Fi. Maybe if I change the opamps I can get a more smooth airy high-end so I get a ultra clear sound without sharpness if I boost the 16 khz with 20db.


----------



## crossbone

Hi Alexander!

 I have one recommendation OPAMP for you, that could suit your needs. Try the OPA2107. Perhaps you can get some free samples from Texas Instruments?? (.edu or .com email address needed)
 It has much better low-end than standard setup and i would describe the high-end as airy, but not harsh. Another one you could like would be the LT1364, though i found it a bit harsher then the OPA2107. Apart from that, those two are really similar.

 Bye
 Matthias


 edit: For more laid back sound with smaller soundstage but not "that" airy highs, i would recommend OPA2132/OPA2134.


----------



## auger66

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not have the ST yet. It's still not available in Holland. . ._

 

We _just _got it here in the US. Mine should be here Friday.


----------



## mojave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *auger66* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We just got it here in the US. Mine should be here Friday._

 

Where did you buy it?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I always listen to Trance with this Equalizer preset in WMP_

 

godverdomme, that's nasty EQ my friend 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 maybe you could try to follow these 2 EQ methods for EQ'ing headphones:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/how...torial-413900/

The necessity of headphone equalization

 and if you want laid back sound, OPA-Earth is the way...and possibly OPA-Moon(more distorted): RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison


----------



## ROBSCIX

..yes you can look back about 3 months ago when many were testing the STX/ST with discrete opamps. There is a much better information as many were testing them in many different configurations. Both the STX and ST thread are full of impressions from many different peopel and many different configurations.

 For your RMAA, what is the test device? What are the stock measurments?
 There is no basis for comparison if you have no stock values in there.
 I know your new to RMAA but,wihtout knowing what your testing and what the default measurments would be they are usless results.


----------



## auger66

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where did you buy it?_

 

nuLime.com

 I've never heard of them, but I got tired of waiting for Amazon or Newegg to get them in stock. There's a $10 coupon code on the far right side of their home page that brings the total cost with shipping to $200. I called Tuesday, and the rep said they had 40 in stock. Ordered Tuesday; shipped Wednesday; should be here Friday. No problems with them at all so far.

Xonar Essence ST (90-YAA0E0-0UAN00Z) - Asus - Sound Cards, Computer Add-Ons & Upgrades, Computers, Electronics & Computers - nuLime.com

 Found them on Google shopping. Others may have it in stock by now.


----------



## Bmac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crossbone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Alexander!

 I have one recommendation OPAMP for you, that could suit your needs. Try the OPA2107._

 

I would recommend the same thing. I had a Neko D100 in my system for a while, which is known to be a fairly neutral DAC with a passive transformer-based output stage. I used the Neko as a benchmark for comparing different op-amp combinations in the STX. It was easy to A/B them with my pre-amp. The closest I came to the sound of the Neko was with 2 x OPA2107 and 1 x LM4562.

 In the end, the Neko was a just a _little_ sweeter, musical and more analog sounding than the STX. I would say their sound was more similar than it was different, to the point where at times I would forget which source I was using and confuse the two. Soundstage and imaging was quite similar. The Neko had slightly rolled off highs, but I didn't feel like I was missing any information there. In comparison, the STX's upper mid's and treble may have been just _slightly_ emphasized relative to neutral. It was a little harder and less organic and natural sounding, but certainly not what I would call aggressive or loud. I was actually really impressed by just how neutral it was and how close it came to the D100 given the roughly $1K or 500% difference in price. Perhaps it could be closer still with discrete units, but I haven't tried them.

 The Neko is gone now, replaced with a Benchmark DAC-1 PRE, perhaps as neutral a DAC as there is. In the process I removed the pre-amp from that system which I felt was negatively affecting the sound. I haven't really had a chance to A/B the STX with the Benchmark yet, but I will. The headphone amp in the DAC-1 is definitely better than in the STX though. The DAC-1 has several LM4562's (and a few 5532's) in the signal chain, so I'd like to compare the STX with 3 x LM4562 just to see how it sounds with the same op-amps.


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not have the ST yet. It's still not available in Holland._

 

Well it's been available here for a few months now I think, but the price of €169 is far from competitive and there's no sign of the H6 expansion board yet, which I'm waiting on. It's still cheaper to import it from Germany at the moment.

 In the mean time I've more or less solved the problem I was having with Trance music being too harsh. I swapped my detailed Pioneer A300R Precision amplifier out for a smoother Marantz PM17KI and after that my Auzentech X-Mystique out for an Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 with Audio GD Earth opamp. All this through Mission 753 speakers, which have metal tweeters which makes them more prone to harshness than silk dome types. Now finally I'm happy with the way my reference trance CD Ra's 9th sounds and don't need to fiddle with the EQ at all any more. Hope you get there too!


----------



## ROBSCIX

...sure some source are just not such a good mix with some amplifiers or receivers but sound great with others.


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *auger66* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nuLime.com

 I've never heard of them, but I got tired of waiting for Amazon or Newegg to get them in stock. There's a $10 coupon code on the far right side of their home page that brings the total cost with shipping to $200. I called Tuesday, and the rep said they had 40 in stock. Ordered Tuesday; shipped Wednesday; should be here Friday. No problems with them at all so far.

Xonar Essence ST (90-YAA0E0-0UAN00Z) - Asus - Sound Cards, Computer Add-Ons & Upgrades, Computers, Electronics & Computers - nuLime.com

 Found them on Google shopping. Others may have it in stock by now._

 

This is good news
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!!!

 I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas


----------



## chase

man, I just bought an STX after asking my store when they were getting the ST in as they had it listed, but not in stock. they had no firm ETA. so i bought the STX thinking it was a ways off, and thinking I can still use a digital signal for surround. The same day my STX shipped is when the ST arrives in stock.


----------



## jalyst

LOL we're the opposite here in Oz...
 I've seen the expansion board listed, but the actual PCI card is still not listed with any of the well known local r/etailers.

 But the distributor for Oz supposedly only got it yesterday... 
 So maybe none of the retailers are bothering to list it until they actually have a few in stock!?

 I'm nearing axe rampage stage.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phusg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well it's been available here for a few months now I think, but the price of €169 is far from competitive and there's no sign of the H6 expansion board yet, which I'm waiting on. It's still cheaper to import it from Germany at the moment.

 In the mean time I've more or less solved the problem I was having with Trance music being too harsh. I swapped my detailed Pioneer A300R Precision amplifier out for a smoother Marantz PM17KI and after that my Auzentech X-Mystique out for an Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 with Audio GD Earth opamp. All this through Mission 753 speakers, which have metal tweeters which makes them more prone to harshness than silk dome types. Now finally I'm happy with the way my reference trance CD Ra's 9th sounds and don't need to fiddle with the EQ at all any more. Hope you get there too!_


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like it how clear the STX can be but [..] it's just too loud, sharp and agressive._

 

well, the most gifted amongst us find it perfectly fine(when it's free, it's hard to complain ^^), but some other ppl also happen to find it too forward and agressive(especially when they paid for it from their own pocket 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...again there's no "one size fits all" in audio gear: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6173703-post25.html
  Quote:


 I've tried the Asus STX and ST but neither are as sweet straight out of the box as the Onkyo, and even modified they still sound a little aggressive to me. 
 

even w/ 3 OPA-Earth, they're not laid back...it's like a wild horse you'd try to domesticate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 ..hehe, I guess Asus will ground me for having just said that


----------



## ROBSCIX

Wow changing your opinion again? 
 If anybody wants to know what you think of these cards all they have to do is read this or the STX thread. Now that you have switched to another card, saying the STX or ST is bad is just in bad taste wouldn't you say?
 Especially when you have written pages of posts such as:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow I've just put the LM4562, I'm stunned 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 major improvement over the stock 2114, wider soundstage, no saturation audible whatsoever, very very very clean and chirurgical sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 if the ST is even better, I'll be ordering it ASAP 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but w/ some LME49720HA + some lossless remastered audio in KS, the SQ on the STX is simply out of this world 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you're looking for a crazily analytical sound, most definitely.
 the SQ is so good that many recordings that sounded fine on the STX just lack now on the ST...it's put the bar one notch further 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh yes! the SQ is less "congested", the audio is well...I've never heard anything sounding this good tbh._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ask more ST owners for impressions against the STX, so you'll have more feedback than just mine...but they're prolly too busy having eargasms to bother coming here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the 4562 is a very good starting point to unleash the Essence power....if you feel need be 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

...and the list goes on and on and on.....
 So I guess we know your opinion of these cards!
 Why not quite the trolling for a day?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I mainly listen to Trance and with the STX this was just too loud and indeed an agressive upper spectrum (sharp). If I listen Trance with the X-Fi I could fall in sleep with it while STX keeps me awake with it's load sound and sharp edges in the upper spectrum. So I could better stay with the X-Fi and leave alone the ST?_

 

Sound is very subjective and not everybody will like the same source.
 If your sure the card was operating properly and you still didn't like what you heard best thing to do is return it and get something else.
 The card is either not a good mix with your headphones/speakers or just not enjoyable based on your ears and music you like.

 Good luck on your gear hunt.


----------



## synth123

Hello all,

 I've been following this thread for quite some time, the other day I bit the bullet and ordered the ST for my HTPC, I use this machine for movies, TV, but also have been wanting to make it a viable source for 2 channel music (I've been looking at CD players and DACs for over 1 year now) I've listened to A LOT of CD players, some good some crap. So I've run the ST now for about 5 good listening sessions with my reference material and can say it defiantly works as a great source, however I've noticed it to fatigue my ears which I'm putting down to the "bright/Harsh" top end that by readying this thread I expected, I've now looking at upgrading the opamps to the Burson discrete but am wondering if this would "smooth" the top end enough to remove the harsh topend?

 Just a note my system is the following:
 Essense ST (QED silver spiral)-> Denon AVR2807(preamp)->(Qed silver spiral)Denon POA2800->(Audio Quest cable)Energy Veritas v1.8

 Basically for the price this is one hell of a source and i'm sure with tweaking I'll be able to remove the harshness but just need some guidance (opamps are quite new to me)

 Thanks,

 Synth


----------



## applegd

Looked around and found amazon has STX but not the ST, I will buy STX...

 Just feel funny to see ASUS wants to save cents by using such cheap DIP8 socket...I will change them but I am afraid of warranty repair problem.


----------



## mojave

You can buy the ST in the USA at overstock.com. Mine will arrive on Monday.


----------



## chase

ncix.com in canada has a few left as well. although i think they ship to the us as well, they have a us store.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *synth123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello all,

 I've been following this thread for quite some time, the other day I bit the bullet and ordered the ST for my HTPC, I use this machine for movies, TV, but also have been wanting to make it a viable source for 2 channel music (I've been looking at CD players and DACs for over 1 year now) I've listened to A LOT of CD players, some good some crap. So I've run the ST now for about 5 good listening sessions with my reference material and can say it defiantly works as a great source, however I've noticed it to fatigue my ears which I'm putting down to the "bright/Harsh" top end that by readying this thread I expected, I've now looking at upgrading the opamps to the Burson discrete but am wondering if this would "smooth" the top end enough to remove the harsh topend?

 Just a note my system is the following:
 Essense ST (QED silver spiral)-> Denon AVR2807(preamp)->(Qed silver spiral)Denon POA2800->(Audio Quest cable)Energy Veritas v1.8

 Basically for the price this is one hell of a source and i'm sure with tweaking I'll be able to remove the harshness but just need some guidance (opamps are quite new to me)

 Thanks,

 Synth_

 

Opamps will definately add some options for you in regards to sound signature. I wouldn't jump right into discretes though as some like them and some do not. Some can be very pricey and might not give you what you want.
 I would try working with some chip opamps first to try and tune the signature more to what you want. The ST is very clear and detailed and can sound bright in some rigs. If you want to tune that aspect down a bit, try out some different I/V opamps. Alternatley you can try a warmer buffer opamp to roll off a bit of the high range.


----------



## synth123

Thanks Robscix, your right the discretes are quite expensive and i'm keen to try IC based solutions, your also right the ST resolves a great amount of detail, I part of the issue I have is the Power amp i use is quite forward with its presentation so it excuse the pun....amplifies the "bright" aspect of the ST's presentation aswell, I have a Nakamichi PA-5 here which has a much "deeper" presentation but its damaged I'll need to get that sorted before hearing that.

 Do have any recommendations on the opamps I could use to roll-off the harshness but not damage the soundstage + detail...

 Thanks,
 Synth


----------



## ROBSCIX

Sometimes the presentation just takes geting used to. In other cases it is just not a good mix with the gear you have. There are a few opamps you can try that can warm up the signature a bit.
 For the buffer you could try
 OPA2134
 OPA2132
 OPA2227
 LT1057

 There are many,many others but I am trying to think of opamps that will just be drop in replacments. Meaning you will not have to solder them onto adapters or anything like that. There are some others that will offer up suggestions as many guys on this forums roll opamps on this and the STX soundcards. There is also a Opamp thread that I started in the DIY section so people can compare notes on opamps. Most of the opamps I have been testing for the last 6 month all require soldering and adapters. I will warn you though, opamps get to be a hobby all by themselves.....


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you're looking for a crazily analytical sound, most definitely._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_even w/ 3 OPA-Earth, they're not laid back...it's like a wild horse you'd try to domesticate_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow changing your opinion again? 
 Now that you have switched to another card, saying the STX or ST is bad is just in bad taste wouldn't you say?_

 

As I read it I'm not sure leeperry is trolling and I don't see major contradictions between what he's been saying. I certainly haven't heard him say the ST is a bad card. From his and other posts I gather it's a incredibly detailed high-fidelity card that for some ears and in some systems can be too much and can cause harshness and therefore be fatiguing. But then with ~3000 posts each you two probably have a bit of history and I shouldn't be getting involved!

 What I would like to hear from leeperry is why you changed (back?) to a Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 after being so enthousiastic about the ST. Was it too tiring in the long run? Also could you comment on the differences between the sound signature of the HD2 and the ST (both with Audio GD Earth as final output buffer opamp)?


----------



## phusg

From another thread:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really enjoy the LME49710HA and a few here are using them also for various circuits.
 I have both 627 and 637SM versions. I enjoy there sound but have been going for a different type of response these days. Something a little closer to the LME49710HA._

 

ROBSCIX, this is an intriguing post. Could you elaborate on the difference between the 627SM, 637SM and LME49710HA on the Essence ST? Considering it's quite forward of itself maybe the 627SM is generally a better match than the 637SM?

 Thankfully these three can all be bought off-the-shelf from Auzentech. Do these Auzentech built units fit under the shielding of the Essence cards?

 Considering the price maybe I should just order a pair of LME49710HA and compare with the Audio GD Earth...


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phusg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I read it I'm not sure leeperry is trolling and I don't see major contradictions between what he's been saying. I certainly haven't heard him say the ST is a bad card. From his and other posts I gather it's a incredibly detailed high-fidelity card that for some ears and in some systems can be too much and can cause harshness and therefore be fatiguing. But then with ~3000 posts each you two probably have a bit of history and I shouldn't be getting involved!

 What I would like to hear from leeperry is why you changed (back?) to a Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 after being so enthousiastic about the ST. Was it too tiring in the long run? Also could you comment on the differences between the sound signature of the HD2 and the ST (both with Audio GD Earth as final output buffer opamp)?_

 

yeah, please don't quote the OP...he's been on my ignore list since forever ^^

 well, I did hear 3 HDAM on the ST, hummm'kay(afterwards we plugged the ground wires together as required): http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6164487-post1026.html

 compared to the HD2(w/ any number of discrete op-amps, or even both cards stock), the ST is very forward/loud w/ very sparkling/agressive trebles...the HD2 is very soft and laid back in comparison.

 even thoppa gave the same feedback as you can see from the link I posted 3 posts above, and so did Alexander01...all trolls I'm sure.

 Actually, the ST/STX are so agressive that they caused me major ear pain after a while..and the jitter improvement chip is a joke, instead of putting a very accurate clock, they added some chip to clean up a dirty clock(a discrete 22Mhz clock like on the Envy24 based cards is a far better idea for low 44.1kHz jitter)...just like when they decided to put the cheapest DIP8 sockets you could possibly find(that give very poor actual contact compared to machined sockets).

 the brain is not meant to listen to AGRESSIVE trebles on a permanent basis, but this thread is mostly aimed at boosting Asus sales(w/ pointless blind web reviews "OMG IT ROX") and call any detractors "trolls"(coming from the goblins king I have to say that I'm flattered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), and Asus reads it on a daily basis to tell Robbie how much of a good boy he is(reminds me of that EPMD album "Strictly Business") 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and the drivers are just terrible(resampling all over the place, unlike VIA's envy24 drivers that forbid SRC and output true 1:1 bitperfect at all times)...these cards are as much audiophile as when motherboard manufacturers decided to add tubes to their AC97 onboard audio chips: AOpen AX4B 533 Tube Motherboard Review - Page 1 - Introduction


----------



## genclaymore

@Robscix 
 I Personly would pay no attention to him and do what he did to you and put him on ignore.But that what I would do if I was you. Since all he gonna do is go on and on and then shove it down your throat if your views are different then is.

 @ Phusg Yea the LME49710HA's are some great op-amps along with the LME49720HA's, I been using them for a while now. Every Since Rob put them on adapters and sent them to me. I have the LME49720HA's in both of my I/V sockets. Then the LME49720HA's in my Buffer dip sockets. I have been thinking about pairing them with either the Audio GD earth or was it sun I forgot. But I havent really had a reason to give a sun or a earth a try with them.


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Phusg, I have no issue with people stating their opinions. What bothers me is when people like that contradict and back track over what they have said in the past to start arguments with owners. Your asking why he switched to the HD2?
 There are pages of post where he said that card was garbage and now it is a great card according to him? Either way, it is very hard to take the opinion of a person that can't seem to get his opinion straight. 
 Careful, if your start questioning him, you will go on his ignore list also.... If you say that you like the card obviously you are working for ASUS or some other nonsense....etc.
 This thread was put here to show people upcoming hardware. I just posted another thread here which was a sneak peak of the Auzen Bravura 7.1

 @Claymore, I do ignore him but I will also replay to dispute bad information and show he contradicts himself.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phusg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From another thread:


 ROBSCIX, this is an intriguing post. Could you elaborate on the difference between the 627SM, 637SM and LME49710HA on the Essence ST? Considering it's quite forward of itself maybe the 627SM is generally a better match than the 637SM?

 Thankfully these three can all be bought off-the-shelf from Auzentech. Do these Auzentech built units fit under the shielding of the Essence cards?

 Considering the price maybe I should just order a pair of LME49710HA and compare with the Audio GD Earth..._

 

I tested the LME49710HA on the ST awhile back as I custom built a DUal TO-99 modules for my person use and for testing. I haven't used that card in quite awhile. Being a reviewer, I don't have the luxury of sticking with one card for too long. The shielding on the Essence cards is quite low, and it won't fit the dual channel TO-99 opamps such as the 627 and 637SM, you will have to remove the shielding permanently. The chip based opamps should fit fine.
 I have built quite a few for members around here as Auzentech offering them is quite new.

 The LME49710HA will not fit on the STX for I/V the sockets are too close together. You can install them if you get extension wires.
 A nice combo might be to use a pair of dual earths for I/V and the LME49710HA for buffer. A few of the Essence owners are running these modules for Buffer and they liek them very much. They are highly recommended by those that have tested them...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the brain is not meant to listen to AGRESSIVE trebles on a permanent basis, but this thread is mostly aimed at boosting Asus sales(w/ pointless blind web reviews "OMG IT ROX") and call any detractors "trolls"(coming from the goblins king I have to say that I'm flattered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





), and Asus reads it on a daily basis to tell Robbie how much of a good boy he is(reminds me of that EPMD album "Strictly Business") 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Actually, you need to check your facts. I have not reviewed the ST. I only released a sneak peak that had no personal opinions of the hardware as I have done with many cards.
 I also relased a sneak peak of the Auzentech Bravura 7.1. here at Head-fi Maybe you missed it? Here have a look->Link
 I go out of my way to get exclusive information on upcoming cards and hardware for the audio community. Most appreciate the effort and the information but I guess you don't.
 If you don't like them, do not read them. 
 Suggesting I am somehow biased because I call you on your BS posts or because I have a different opinion is pretty childish and trolling at it's best. 
 Other people have posted negative opinions and I have said nothing to the contrary as that is their opinion and I couldn't care less if they like the card or not. 
 Your opinion is somewhat suspect because of what you have posted in the past. Are people just supposed to disregard what you said only a month or so ago that is totally the opposite of what you say now?
 You seem to be just posting these negative comments because you want to argue with people or perhaps there is some other reason?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phusg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From another thread:


 ROBSCIX, this is an intriguing post. Could you elaborate on the difference between the 627SM, 637SM and LME49710HA on the Essence ST? Considering it's quite forward of itself maybe the 627SM is generally a better match than the 637SM?

 Thankfully these three can all be bought off-the-shelf from Auzentech. Do these Auzentech built units fit under the shielding of the Essence cards?

 Considering the price maybe I should just order a pair of LME49710HA and compare with the Audio GD Earth..._

 

Here is a picture of some units I built for another member:





 The forward three are LME49720HA's and the dual one to the rear is the LME49710HA module.
 The earth is very neutral and many have been getting great results using that for I/V.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

This is driving me nuts with this soundcard I think I will have to sell it and move on. I keep hearing small pops and clicks in my music through Foobar; intermittent and definitely not a part of the recordings. Latest version of Foobar.

 YES. I have increased my latencies with NO affect.

 Foobar output setting to 2000ms

 1)Also did this in ASIO for the Soundcard w/o ASIO4ALL -- the stock asio setting maxes out at 300ms.
 2) Also did this with ASIO4ALL in lieu of the stock, maxed out at 2048, always resample off, both hw/ buffer and kernel buffer maxed.
 3) Tried Kernel Streaming plugin
 4) Tried both Coaxial and Optical digital. USB seems to be working fine.

 Anyone else have this going on? I'm in Windows 7.


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.Sneis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is driving me nuts with this soundcard I think I will have to sell it and move on. I keep hearing small pops and clicks in my music through Foobar; intermittent and definitely not a part of the recordings. Latest version of Foobar.

 YES. I have increased my latencies with NO affect.

 Foobar output setting to 2000ms

 1)Also did this in ASIO for the Soundcard w/o ASIO4ALL -- the stock asio setting maxes out at 300ms.
 2) Also did this with ASIO4ALL in lieu of the stock, maxed out at 2048, always resample off, both hw/ buffer and kernel buffer maxed.
 3) Tried Kernel Streaming plugin
 4) Tried both Coaxial and Optical digital. USB seems to be working fine.

 Anyone else have this going on? I'm in Windows 7._

 

Did you try wasapi?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Try other output renderer and see if this helps.

 Do you get these "blips" during other audio tasks?
 Seem like you may have some type of conflict or other issue.


----------



## giedrys

Anyone's using ST/STX directly with Denon D2000/5000? Is ST's internal amp powerful enough?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Should be.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try other output renderer and see if this helps.

 Do you get these "blips" during other audio tasks?
 Seem like you may have some type of conflict or other issue._

 

Just tried WASAPI and it still looks like a no-go. I think next I will put the music on a different hard drive and see if it helps.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Just tried playing from a separate hard drive and also a no go


----------



## ROBSCIX

Is your soundcard on it's own tap from the PSU?
 -Meangin the card is the only device on that cable straight to the PSU?

 Have you tried changing slots?


----------



## soulrider4ever

Maybe you got a lemon? can you try a trial of j. river media center and see if you get the same results, are you getting the popping with direct sound?


----------



## chase

Rob, your messages are full.

 I did end up getting one, arrived today. I get really bad crackling when pausing or skipping ahead in a song. This is through the headphone out only. The RCA's do not have this problem. It is also independant of volume. It only seems to occur in foobar though. Going to do some testing...

 EDIT: figured it out. Set foobar to 32bit out, seems to fix everything.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can buy the ST in the USA at overstock.com. Mine will arrive on Monday._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chase* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ncix.com in canada has a few left as well. although i think they ship to the us as well, they have a us store._

 

Thanks very much for your help!!

 By closely looking at some of the digital pictures of the ST and STX, my findings are:
 (1) From PCB layout standpoint, for the circuit of AV100 chip on ST, it is rotated 90 degree comparing to STX's.
 (2) On STX PCB, the 10-pins footprint for Cirrus Logic CS2000 IC is there but ASUS just does not solder the CS2000 chip there by leaving it blank. 

 As I did not have either ST or STX in hand at this moment, I will leave ST/STX owner to comment/confirm my above view. 


 By looking further, as my current working view, it seems to be possible to upgrade the STX's clock by adding the "missing" CS2000 (and changing some resistor/cap etc ???). Then technically we match STX to ST as I am sure PCI-E version can live longer than PCI. Of course there are still a lot technical homework to do.....

 At least very nice and big pictures from both ST owner and STX owner should be helpful to investigate further....


----------



## BenWaB3

A stupid question I realize, so I'll probably get fragged for asking it, but here goes: I just got the ST in this afternoon. In looking at the 1/4" input it says mic/line. However it doesn't say if the line in is stereo or not. You would think it would almost have to be stereo but we all know what happens when we assume. I know I could find out by breaking it open & reading the manual but if it isn't stereo I'm sending it back & that would probably be easier w/ the packaging still sealed. So what's the deal here? Thanks in advance.

 Ben (putting on flameproof pants now)


----------



## krisno

Anyone want to sell me a Asus Xonar Essence ST ?


----------



## oqvist

Perhaps if you want a K701 along with it


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BenWaB3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A stupid question I realize, so I'll probably get fragged for asking it, but here goes: I just got the ST in this afternoon. In looking at the 1/4" input it says mic/line. However it doesn't say if the line in is stereo or not. You would think it would almost have to be stereo but we all know what happens when we assume. I know I could find out by breaking it open & reading the manual but if it isn't stereo I'm sending it back & that would probably be easier w/ the packaging still sealed. So what's the deal here? Thanks in advance.

 Ben (putting on flameproof pants now)_

 

Stereo.


----------



## jalyst

No way I "*FINALLY*" just got mine, yay!
 Good luck with it though, surely they should be in the US very soon.


 U.S/E.U. normally get everything waaaay before Australia.
 This is a nice change 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone want to sell me a Asus Xonar Essence ST ?_


----------



## Kasuza

They are available at newegg.com. Grab it! If i don't have Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3, i would jump on it right away.

Newegg.com - ASUS Xonar Essence ST 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Audio Card - Sound Cards


----------



## forciano

Robscix or somebody else mind telling me if I could use a dual OPA 637SM on the ST, I will be using the line out so by what i have been able to understand so far is that I might be able to use them as the buffer.


----------



## ROBSCIX

You can use it for buffer only. It is unstable in the I/V section without circuit modifications. I have tested it myself.


----------



## forciano

Thanks, Robscix.
 Now the question is, does buffer opamp help change the sound enough to warrant paying $250.


----------



## ROBSCIX

No, not in my opinion.
 The I/V changes the sound the most and the buffer seems to highlight or surpress certain aspects of the sound if that makes sense.

 Such as using a buffer opamps that is "warm" because your I/V opamps are edgy and so the buffer will roll off the high range on the I/V.

 You don't have to go with the SM version of the 637. There are other grade, AU,AM BP..etc.

 They would never fit in the I/V section without using some type of mod or extension anyhow.
 The adapters make them too wide for the I/V section on any of those cards as the sockets are very close and on the one side of the socket there is tall Caps


----------



## forciano

Well thats good to know, I didnt want to spend all that money for minimal benefits.
 I guess for now my opamp search will have to be based first on soundstage, and second on non-harshness of the sound, so there seems to be lots of reading ahead of me...

 Thx again btw


----------



## jalyst

crikey there seems to be a bunch of 'weird science' in opamps themselves, I'm just going to make do with the defaults for the time being


----------



## OpTicaL

What's the 7.1 card I have to buy for the Essence ST?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OpTicaL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's the 7.1 card I have to buy for the Essence ST?_

 

It's called the H6 DAC Expansion Card.


----------



## OpTicaL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's called the H6 DAC Expansion Card._

 

Thanks! and would you happen to know where and when it's available? I tried Newegg and it doesn't seem to be in stock.


----------



## jalyst

Try to find out from the Asus sound card distributor for your region whether any H6 are being imported with the ST. 
 They'll give you the best picture of where things are at...


----------



## OpTicaL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try to find out from the Asus sound card distributor for your region whether any H6 are being imported with the ST. 
 They'll give you the best picture of where things are at..._

 

Thanks!

 Is there any noticable difference in quality between the STX and ST? and out of curiosity why did Asus choose to make the ST PCI only?


----------



## jalyst

Apparently there is some subtle improvements, just look back through this thread for that.

 I've no idea why they did that, personally I wish they made it PCIe too, makes more sense imo.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Apparently there is some subtle improvements, just look back through this thread for that.

 I've no idea why they did that, personally I wish they made it PCIe too, makes more sense imo._

 

I just got my ST and after hearing some music for a bit, I realize me X-FI elite pro was bright and less detailed. 

 Not bad...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, most that have tried it say that same. Considering there are opamps sockets you can tune it more to your personal tastes.


----------



## jalyst

optical was wanting to know differences between ST & STX

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *forciano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just got my ST and after hearing some music for a bit, I realize me X-FI elite pro was bright and less detailed. 

 Not bad..._


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I did not read the whole post back. But has anyone compared the ST digital output to some other stuff out there? I am using it as my source for DAC but do not know if there is a big difference whit other cards or ??


----------



## ROBSCIX

I can't see there being a difference as for the most part digital is digital. Some prefer transformer coupled S/Pdif outputs though saying they are a bit more precise.
 Are you thinking the Jitter correction chip might make a difference on the S/Pdif output also?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

As you know I have a modified STX whit an external crystal. So I posted it here because of similarity of ST. I think there is not big difference, DIGITAL IS DIGITAL! 
 Yes I think so. For the digital signal is very important the precise reference clock.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, jitter and the reference XO would be important facotrs to the S/Pdif output for sure.
 Do you still have that XO around?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes, its my source of digital signal)) Once I thought I would sell the xonar and buy something better but then..even if I think what card should be better for delivering nice digital signal?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Most would say digital is digital but as I said many prefer the transformer coupled S/pdif outputs. SInce your using the high precision reference clock I would think your S/Pdif output is probably cleaner then most you woudl find on soundcards.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Agree. What do you think would be the next step of digital source in computer?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What do you think would be the next step of digital source in computer?_

 

quite honestly, if you crave for top notch S/PDIF...why not selling your pimped STX and get that italian hiface thingie? it's got bit-perfect/automatically bit-matched drivers, and its jitter is almost as low as the Lynx soundcards.

 Asus keeps telling me that the bit-perfect/bit-matched drivers are coming....but they're fully dependent on C-Media to deliver the goods, who don't really seem to care.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_optical was wanting to know differences between ST & STX_

 

My bad I dont know why i quoted you


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Very interesting the hiface!!!


----------



## Bmac

Gworld, what DAC are you using?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I have gamma 2 and TDA1541A NOS DAS for experimeting.
 Why?


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What you would be upgrading on the STX is the XO. 
 It has 3 connections IIRC..._

 

The 10 pins footprint for CS2000 chip on STX circuit board is there(check U36 position) but ASUS leave it blank. I just feel strange why ASUS did this. Maybe ASUS has technical reason not doing this?? Or they just want to save couple(<10) US$ on part cost? This kind of practice seems to be not too good for a product positioned for audiophile.

 If ASUS solder CS2000 chips and its related several Caps/Resistors on STX circuit board which have the footprints already, then the only audio performance related Hardware difference between STX and ST is the PCI-E to PCI Bridge Chip PEX 8112 on STX board.

 As the ST hit the market after STX, just feel STX design might be little bit premature unless ASUS has technical reason which blocks using CS2000 on STX.


----------



## jalyst

I think -as you suggest- the reason they left it out was because it came out long before the ST. 
 Future revisions will prolly have it or something similar.

 Also I totally forgot until you reminded me....

 STX isn't native PCIe, it relies on a PCIe bridge...
 ST doesn't need a bridge because it's straight PCI-out.
 Hopefully the core circuitry will be modified so that PCIe native is used in the future.


----------



## leeperry

they're dependent on C-Media for the DSP and windows drivers...some say that Asus bought C-Media, but it'd only appear to be hearsay. If they ever release a PCI-E CMI8788, maybe you'll see native soundcards w/o a bridge.

 The PEX8112 brige is also said to increase the latency over ASIO...and why not jitter too?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 10 pins footprint for CS2000 chip on STX circuit board is there(check U36 position) but ASUS leave it blank. I just feel strange why ASUS did this. Maybe ASUS has technical reason not doing this?? Or they just want to save couple(<10) US$ on part cost? This kind of practice seems to be not too good for a product positioned for audiophile.

 If ASUS solder CS2000 chips and its related several Caps/Resistors on STX circuit board which have the footprints already, then the only audio performance related Hardware difference between STX and ST is the PCI-E to PCI Bridge Chip PEX 8112 on STX board.

 As the ST hit the market after STX, just feel STX design might be little bit premature unless ASUS has technical reason which blocks using CS2000 on STX._

 

We are refering to two different components. I said the XO, which is the main clock generator. The CS2000 chip is a clock clean up chip and not the same thing at all. According to the postings around here, they are both great cards.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think -as you suggest- the reason they left it out was because it came out long before the ST. 
 Future revisions will prolly have it or something similar.

 Also I totally forgot until you reminded me....

 STX isn't native PCIe, it relies on a PCIe bridge...
 ST doesn't need a bridge because it's straight PCI-out.
 Hopefully the core circuitry will be modified so that PCIe native is used in the future._

 

The 8788 chips are native PCI, they were fitted on many cards a few years ago such as the X-Meridian 7.1, Claro, Sondigo Inferno, Razor AC-1...etc
 The mad 8788 rush, which seen most of these cards using generic stock drivers. There were a few that used drivers which were "skinned" such as the Razor card but the base drivers were still C-Media.
 The drivers were bascially interchangable from card to card.
 The recently released Claro Halo is still running one of these 8788 chips (from existing old stock)
 Many of the orginally 8788 cards were quite good though...


----------



## giedrys

Does ST offer upsampling to 192/24?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does ST offer upsampling to 192/24?_

 

Yes. You can set the output sampling rate for 24/192 Khz.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We are refering to two different components. I said the XO, which is the main clock generator. The CS2000 chip is a clock clean up chip and not the same thing at all. According to the postings around here, they are both great cards._

 

Nothing personal. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 no matter "XO which is the main clock generator" or "The CS2000 chip which is a clock clean up chip", generally I call it "timing/clocking circuit".

 To be precise, (1) if someone like to use the newer PCI-e interface/slot, he/she have to order STX and take the subpar clocking circuit as compromise. (2) if he/she is focusing on audio performance, he/she will order ST and take the older PCI interface/slot as compromise. (3) No matter which option you go, you have to take compromise. This looks pain in ass position.

 We will have hope once the chip at current AV100 position is PCI-e native.


----------



## ROBSCIX

I wouldn't say the STX has a "subpar" timing circuit. Just the ST has extra circuitry to make the master clock more precise.
 Maybe the next chip revision will be natice PCI-E as you said.


----------



## Surfaced

Well it looks like I can find the STX for $160 shipped. 

 But this ST, which apparently has some improvements, is no less than $210 anywhere.

 Anyone know if the extra $50 is worth it? I have no reason to get the H6, by the way.


----------



## macrog

Yes definately worth the extra for the ST. I have the st and stx both upgraded with 3 x lme49720nz opamps. The ST is in a totally different league to the stx. The stx is soundly trounced by the musiland 02us usb dac where the ST is probably actually a bit better.

 macrog


----------



## Bmac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have gamma 2 and TDA1541A NOS DAS for experimeting.
 Why?_

 

Just curious what you switched to and how it compares to your hot-rodded STX.


----------



## Surfaced

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes definately worth the extra for the ST. I have the st and stx both upgraded with 3 x lme49720nz opamps. The ST is in a totally different league to the stx. The stx is soundly trounced by the musiland 02us usb dac where the ST is probably actually a bit better.

 macrog_

 

Wow! Trounced? I didn't think it was possible considering how similar they are supposed to be.

 Thanks for the info, I had no idea...


----------



## leeperry

once you've heard the ST, the STX sounds like a mushy stereo mess(I've owned both simultaneously and A/B'ed them several times).


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Surfaced* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well it looks like I can find the STX for $160 shipped. 

 But this ST, which apparently has some improvements, is no less than $210 anywhere.

 Anyone know if the extra $50 is worth it? I have no reason to get the H6, by the way._

 

Newly released cards are always the most money.
 If your interested in the card wait for a bit and the price will drop, the same with any other product.


----------



## giedrys

Essence ST requires separate connector directly from power supply, right? What kind of connector is that? 6 pin, like on most video cards?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Essence ST requires separate connector directly from power supply, right? What kind of connector is that? 6 pin, like on most video cards?_

 

Just a normal 4 pin molex connector, used on some optical drive, some hard drives etc.


----------



## Kandiru

Hi, i am am new here, but have a long history of PC and Mac hardware abuse.

 Apart from the CMI 8788 PCM 192 KHz via optical to the different systems around my tiny abode i also run analog setups for my office, and the wife's of course.

 Wife's: Auzentech X-Meridian > Parasound Zamp v.2> Energy bookshelves

 Mine: Xonar DX (CMI 8788 clone i have generic Oxygen HD drivers loaded) > Zamp > Canton D3 3-way bookshelves

 All connections on the high current end gold plated silver-soldered of course, low current interconnects have shielding which drains into the ground plug on the Panamax Max 5100 conditioners. Overkill? No, it's called
 upgraditis on AVS Forum.

 After installing the X-Meridian in my wife's office i saw the light, not that the Xonar DX is impotent, quite on the contrary, based on my remote experience with the plebeian brand called Creative 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 So, after i won an X-Meridian for $70 on ebay i wanted a second one, tough luck! HT Omega was next but then i kept reading about the STX, and Leepery's eloquent 2 line sentence comparing the ST and STX. I keep bumping into his posts and i know he knows what he is doing so ordered the ST with a big discount from Overstock, coupons are all over the web for that site, beware of malware when you reference from Google though.

 I am so happy i found this site, so glad to hear that my affliction is not unique. The Opamp swap saga is just plain fascinating, watching those capacitor swapped boards reminds me of the days i belonged to a radio club 20 plus years ago.

 I will report with my layman newb findings on the ST as soon as i rig it up in my 64 bit Precision T7500, without IT taking notice hopefully


----------



## jalyst

good to have you on board, everyone's a newb and one point or another!


----------



## Kandiru

Got the card, installed it, uses the large 4 pin auxiliary power cable as opposed to the DX, has front audio connectors.

 When i installed the driver Windows 7 asked me if i wanted to allow "C-Media device drivers" to be installed, so we may have ourselves another ASUS CMI8788 rebadge, i did not go as far as to try the "C-Media Oxygen HD" generic drivers provided by Razer Barracuda AC-1 which worked well with the Xonar DX.

 In Win 7 64 bit i tried tweaking some audio settings through the sound devices menu. Big mistake, as soon as i changed the sample rate i lost all functionality of the Asus interface, regained it after i reset all Windows settings to default.

 I like the HF button on the panel, kills all additional processing.

 I listened to Avro Klassiek 256kbps (this comes as close to redbook CD as an internet radio station could get) and Bartok Radio 320kbps and i was impressed. Then some Octoshape Plugin stations 192kbps like Radio Swiss Jazz and Pop with very nice results. Spacialization is good, polyphony great, in Concierto de Aranjuez by Rodrigo the guitar and violins really came to life, and were clearly localized in the soundstage, something the DX could not pull. Now i see what people mean by listening fatigue, it is because the experience is involving, your brain needs to process all that new information that was not audible before with compressed sound. SACD via DSD on a balanced (not fully, have the PR-SC885P) system is my reference.

 I would say this card comes close to the Auzentech X-Meridian, if not better.

 I am keeping mine for a long time.


----------



## sw98

I currently own the STX and am upgrading motherboards soon. Is anyone running their STX in a PCI-E x16 slot? I'm running mine in a 4X slot right now, I tried putting it in a X1 slot and it doesn't sound the same. Just curious.


----------



## Tristate

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sw98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I currently own the STX and am upgrading motherboards soon. Is anyone running their STX in a PCI-E x16 slot? I'm running mine in a 4X slot right now, I tried putting it in a X1 slot and it doesn't sound the same. Just curious._

 

Yepp, I'm running mine on a x16 slot, no problem.


----------



## jalyst

x1 is more than enough bandwidth no matter the audio source/format.
 something else may explain why you hear a difference...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sw98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I currently own the STX and am upgrading motherboards soon. Is anyone running their STX in a PCI-E x16 slot? I'm running mine in a 4X slot right now, I tried putting it in a X1 slot and it doesn't sound the same. Just curious._


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x1 is more than enough bandwidth no matter the audio source/format.
 something else may explain why you hear a difference..._

 

Probably the positioning of the card in the case. Maybe there is more interference (whatever the correct term is) wherever the x1 slot is.


----------



## sw98

Ok cool, got mine running in an X16 slot now. Is anyone running their STX in Windows 7? There shouldn't be any SQ differences in going from XP to 7, right?


----------



## drewfus420

my stx ran and sounded the same on XP and Win7, once I loaded the same players, ASIO, etc.

 I did notice a slight change in sound between my 1x 4 x and 16x slots, settling in the 1x slot, and I do believe it had everything to do with proximity to my graphics card, and power supply.


----------



## sw98

Ah, ok. I recently moved my STX over to the farthest x16 slot, it sounds a bit better. I recently upgraded to Win 7, do I need to reinstall ASIO4ALL? I thought those drivers came standard with 7?


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kandiru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would say this card comes close to the Auzentech X-Meridian, if not better._

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences. With which opamps are you comparing the X-Meridian to the ST? Also could you comment on how they compare with respect to listening fatigue?


----------



## ZeNmAc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sw98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah, ok. I recently moved my STX over to the farthest x16 slot, it sounds a bit better. I recently upgraded to Win 7, do I need to reinstall ASIO4ALL? I thought those drivers came standard with 7?_

 

WASAPI is easier. You only can't use it in XP. For Vista or W7 wasapi works the same AFAIK.


----------



## JackeShan

Ordered Xonar Essence ST and a $120 Supra RCA cable that I will be using to X-Can V8 amp (6H32n tubes) and Denon D5000... 
 coming from Xonar D2X and a cheap $10 rca cable what improvements should I expect?

 Also, anyone tried these cans with the amp in the card and compared it with a seperate amp? Is it good enough? I might get the card tomorrow so I will compare the amp in the card and with the seperate amp.
 If I ever going to upgrade the opamps and while I use a seperate amp.. does it matter if I upgrade all opamps or just the I/V or buffer opamp?


----------



## ROBSCIX

The ST sounds better and measures better then a D2X, especially if you have the other gear to hear the differences in quality. 
 For opamps you can replace them all if you want.
 If you use the cards onboard heapdheons amplifier the buffer opamps is not used so it is useless to change it in this configuration.


----------



## JackeShan

Thanks for reply!

 I'm very new with opamps.. hopefully I am satisfyed with the sound (which I already am with the D2X) so a change will probably not be necessary.


----------



## ROBSCIX

After you spends some time listening to the card you will be in a better position to decide if it can use some tweaking for your gear and ears. People have different opinions on what sounds good so....your opinion is all that matters for your gear


----------



## krisno

You will not hear any difference with D2X and Essence ST when pairing with X-can V8.. you wont actually hear any difference with any tube amp, as the tubes itself is the weak link. You can use quite cheap source and get the 'same' out via a tube amp. If you use solidstate you will probably hear the difference...


----------



## audionewbieyao

I love this quote from -- John Atkinson, chief editor of Stereophile...
 I mean, should we say "thank you" to Asus for selling the card so cheap? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Stereophile: Now on Newsstands: <i>Stereophile</i>, Vol.33 No.1

 “Xonar Essence STX/ST are by far the least expensive way of turning a PC into a genuine high-resolution audio source I have yet encountered.”


----------



## Kandiru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phusg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for sharing your experiences. With which opamps are you comparing the X-Meridian to the ST? Also could you comment on how they compare with respect to listening fatigue?_

 

Stock opamps both, fatigue wise i would say the the ST is the challenging one, because on quality stations like Avro Klassiek it brings out polyphony and a detailed sound stage at levels that after a while cause fatigue. It is not you MUZAK card, although that is exactly what i use it for. Several customers sat in my office waiting over past week and 4 out of 5 commented on how they got immersed into the classical music, lauding my speakers of course, never one comment on the card or Parasound Zamp in plain view, victims of the infommercial Bose(B&O in EU) culture i guess


----------



## krisno

Is the Essence ST fatiguing using AKG K 701(which can be fatiguing headphones in its own right) or not? Is it more fatiguing than the STX?

 What about the other Xonar cards like the D1 regarding long term fatigue?

 Kris


----------



## dwk

I haven't been following this thread all that closely, but am I correct in thinking that there still isn't any indication anywhere on the availability of either the H6 card as an add-on or a 'Deluxe' version including the H6? This is an interesting card due to it's Linux support, but I really need multi-channel capability. If this doesn't pan out I'm probably going to have to go Firewire since there really don't seem to be many other decent Linux options, unfortunately.


----------



## ROBSCIX

IIRC,they are released in Australia and other members have posted confirmation from their distributors they are on order.


----------



## carickw

How does this card work with the front panel audio. Does it sound as good as the main connector? I am trying to decide between the essence st and claro halo, any opinions?


----------



## Kandiru

Darn, that stock X-Meridian in my wife's office next door paired with another Parasound Zamp and Energy Veritas bookshelves still sounds better than my system with same amp and Xonar ST with 3-way Cantons (superior to Energy in all tests). On top of it her system is not even line conditioned.

 So, guess what i found on my ebay rounds tonight? An $80 X-Meridian, got cheap and made a best offer, then realized that likely it will be gone in a few more minutes and just got it.

 I do A-B comparisons on my system (have 2 PCI slots) and keep the winner. Now i need another mini-stereo to RCA gold plated L-R splitter to do my Canare interconnects justice.


----------



## jalyst

Interesting, please share your results.... 
 I'd be amazed if you reckon the meridian sounds better overall. 
 But SQ is such a subjective thing it wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Actually the X-Meridian is a very good card. Still considered by many to be one of the best soundcards ever built. Especially with some high quality opamps and a few simple mods. Power caps, decoupling..etc
 The XM cannot compete with the ST for measurements or component quality so it woudl be a case of subjective sound.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd be amazed if you reckon the meridian sounds better overall. 
 But SQ is such a subjective thing it wouldn't surprise me._

 

Gearslutz.com - View Single Post - Beyond THD+N: How does your power amplifier REALLY perform?
  Quote:


 Actually, there were many scientific researches that proved that all variations of IMD, THT, THD+N tests, and all other specific tests can't be used to say how well the sound is reproduced in terms of subconscious human perceptions. And there still are some stubborn engineers and scientists who won't see any evidences. 
 

better specs doesn't mean better SQ...that's what manufacturers want you to believe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ...if it were true all the ppl who own tube amps would ditch them and use LME49722MA ear-splitting uber-low THD op-amps.


----------



## Little country rat

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if it were true all the ppl who own tube amps would ditch them and use LME49722MA ear-splitting uber-low THD op-amps._

 

Are you really thinking what you're saying ?!


----------



## dwk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IIRC,they are released in Australia and other members have posted confirmation from their distributors they are on order._

 

Indeed - thanks for the update - I'd missed it. It is listed on several Aussie sites.
 Of course, it's a bit painful that the delta between the HDAV and the HDAV Deluxe is only ~$30AUS, but the H6 by itself lists for $100AUS.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dwk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed - thanks for the update - I'd missed it. It is listed on several Aussie sites.
 Of course, it's a bit painful that the delta between the HDAV and the HDAV Deluxe is only ~$30AUS, but the H6 by itself lists for $100AUS._

 

Yes, they are coming out. Perhaps the price will drop in a bit. New hardware releases always carry the biggest price tags.


----------



## alksv

Hey guys,
 I've decided to try the Essence ST. I would like to ask what opamps would suit me if I am using the gear in my sig and love my music detailed, with big soundstage and good separation. I listen mostly to jazz, fusion, progrock and funk (but still have a lot of different music). I will be using the RCA out, I guess that means I'm to switch the two buffer opamps? Would the LME49720 do best for me, or are there some other suggestions? Thanks in advance for the tips and HNY.

 PS: I take it the LME49720 and LM4562 are identical?


----------



## jalyst

Sorry but that post doesn't really prove anything, it's just an opinion stated as fact.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Gearslutz.com - View Single Post - Beyond THD+N: How does your power amplifier REALLY perform?_


----------



## jalyst

how'd you go Kandiru?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting, please share your results.... 
 I'd be amazed if you reckon the meridian sounds better overall. 
 But SQ is such a subjective thing it wouldn't surprise me._


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry but that post doesn't really prove anything, it's just an opinion stated as fact._

 

read the whole thread, ask google....specs don't mean jack as far as SQ is concerned, otherwise noone would use tubes or discrete designs? the human brain is not meant to listen to pure sine waves, but well you'll find out by yourself over time...no worries


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alksv* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys,
 I've decided to try the Essence ST. I would like to ask what opamps would suit me if I am using the gear in my sig and love my music detailed, with big soundstage and good separation. I listen mostly to jazz, fusion, progrock and funk (but still have a lot of different music). I will be using the RCA out, I guess that means I'm to switch the two buffer opamps? Would the LME49720 do best for me, or are there some other suggestions? Thanks in advance for the tips and HNY.

 PS: I take it the LME49720 and LM4562 are identical?_

 

There are many different opamps people ahve been using on these cards.
 The LM4562 and the LME49720 are the same as far as specs go and from what National says but people have said they hear differences.
 Models will vary though, with the To-99 being the highest grade out of the line ups.

 To note, the two opamps you change are the JRC 2114D's the are a "differential input current to voltage converter" usually called the "I/V opamps"
 the LM4562 is the buffer...


----------



## jalyst

Yes but you're assuming *most specs* are geared solely for promoting sine wave or other clinically measurable superiority, which I don't believe they are. Sure there's exceptions... 

 Anyway, this is probably not the most appropriate thread to continue this.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_read the whole thread, ask google....specs don't mean jack as far as SQ is concerned, otherwise noone would use tubes or discrete designs? the human brain is not meant to listen to pure sine waves, but well you'll find out by yourself over time...no worries 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## jalyst

Let us know Kandiru 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kandiru* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Darn, that stock X-Meridian in my wife's office next door paired with another Parasound Zamp and Energy Veritas bookshelves still sounds better than my system with same amp and Xonar ST with 3-way Cantons (superior to Energy in all tests). On top of it her system is not even line conditioned.

 So, guess what i found on my ebay rounds tonight? An $80 X-Meridian, got cheap and made a best offer, then realized that likely it will be gone in a few more minutes and just got it.

 I do A-B comparisons on my system (have 2 PCI slots) and keep the winner. Now i need another mini-stereo to RCA gold plated L-R splitter to do my Canare interconnects justice._


----------



## Kandiru

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting, please share your results.... 
 I'd be amazed if you reckon the meridian sounds better overall. 
 But SQ is such a subjective thing it wouldn't surprise me._

 


 OK, and the winner is....Asus Xonar ST!!! This is 3 days later, switching back and forth having to swap cards as it turns out i only have one PCI slot. Did 1 swap, then just brought an Optiplex 760 also 64 bit Win7Pro loaner from the IT department, and the A-B went on. Horribly subjective decision, again both cards are bone stock.

 I also made another common newb mistake with narrow beam tweetered speakers like the Cantons. I have limited space and could not turn the Bell'O
 stands very well. Being the order freak that i am i had to align the speakers with the bases.

 As soon as i hooked the X-Meridian i go, ok ok, very nice, in fact it does better at hiding imperfections in poorer quality recordings but the sound stage was missing. Then of course i hit myself hard on the forehead and grabbed the 30lb 3-way bookshelves and made them fire straight at the the listening position, almost perfect equilateral triangle with my head. Tweeters very close the ear level. Ah hah, now staging is good, instruments more localized, good Dolby effect, vocal solo forms up in the middle. 

 Back to the Xonar ST, a whole another level. Poorer stations, or even lesser MP3s on 320 kbps stations sound compressed, while decently encoded xxxx makes you want to cry, Smetana's Vltava on Avro Klassiek happened to be playing, i imagined the fields of wheat in front of my eyes, i am a believer again.

 So the morale for the headphone refusniks like me is REMEMBER TOE-IN! I believe in Sennheiser though, and had AKG headset for comms when i used to belong in an IL-2 Sturmovik virtual squadron piloting an Me-106E in my BC (before children) days. Grados for Woody the woodpecker 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am happy though that i have a spare X-Meridian, i will tinker with it following the path laid out by the elders on head-fi.

 Xonar ST will stay with me for a long time. What's with Stereophile claiming that STX is better, was it by specs only?


----------



## jalyst

LOL, amusing writing style, thanks for the feed-back!!

 Never read about stereophile's claims...
 Specs and anecdotal evidence here suggest the opposite.

 Thanks again.


----------



## macrog

I found the ST a bigger improvement from the STX than the STX was from the Xonar D2.

 The LME49720na's improved bothing hugely though.

 Macrog


----------



## ROBSCIX

Audio is subjective and people hear things differently. 
 I would take a ST for a few reasons over a STX but both are still great cards IMO.


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audio is subjective and people hear things differently. 
 I would take a ST for a few reasons over a STX but both are still great cards IMO._

 

I know the specs of the STX are supposedly better but the imaging of the stx seems so fundamentally wrong that I wonder whether there are some phase anomalies on the STX?

 Is it just me that heard this?

 I still have an STX but will probably replace it with another ST.

 Macrog


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the imaging of the stx seems so fundamentally wrong that I wonder whether there are some phase anomalies on the STX?

 Is it just me that heard this?

 I still have an STX but will probably replace it with another ST._

 

most definitely! when I read that stereo-idiophile magazine saying that the STX sounds better than the ST, I think they should drop meth and crack altogether.

 the STX imaging is very mushy, and the ST tries to clean it but fails blatantly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the CMI8788 datasheet talks about 750ps jitter, which is *HUGE*...and instead of using two discrete 22/24Mhz clocks for 44.1/48 multiples(like the VIA Envy24 or the Hiface interface), they're using a single clock + a clock conditioner to lower jitter at 44.1...plus all the crappy resampling happening in the windows drivers(good luck getting bit-perfect audio 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 quite honestly, I think the soundcard would fare far better on Linux with some proper drivers...the C-Media resampling mumbo-jumbo only makes things fussier and messier, Asus should learn better.

*PS:* hah! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6300537-post1240.html


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know the specs of the STX are supposedly better but the imaging of the stx seems so fundamentally wrong that I wonder whether there are some phase anomalies on the STX?

 Is it just me that heard this?

 I still have an STX but will probably replace it with another ST.

 Macrog_

 

Well, I've seen people say that jitter reduction produces an increase in soundstage, so it would follow that the STX would sound squashed in and unusual compared to a jitter-corrected ST. The specs that are better on the STX are already in a range that's difficult for human ears to differentiate (if not impossible), so they're negligible compared to the difference the clock makes on the ST.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shahrose* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I've seen people say that jitter reduction produces an increase in soundstage, so it would follow that the STX would sound squashed in and unusual compared to a jitter-corrected ST. The specs that are better on the STX are already in a range that's difficult for human ears to differentiate (if not impossible), so they're negligible compared to the difference the clock makes on the ST._

 

Basically I agree your point.

 Per stereophile review, the jitter in the STX analog output is very low, 170 picoseconds for left and 186ps for right. As comparison, the Headroom MAX Dac has 236 picoseconds jitter. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know the specs of the STX are supposedly better but the imaging of the stx seems so fundamentally wrong that I wonder whether there are some phase anomalies on the STX?

 Is it just me that heard this?

 I still have an STX but will probably replace it with another ST.

 Macrog_

 

I ran the intensive testing for my STX(side note: and for ST as well) on 16bit/44.1kHz, 24bit/48kHz, 24bit/96kHz, 24bit/192kHz signal, and checked Phase Delay and Phase Response every time, there is no anomalies at all. The results for both channels are matched very well.


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Basically I agree your point.

 Per stereophile review, the jitter in the STX analog output is very low, 170 picoseconds for left and 186ps for right. As comparison, the Headroom MAX Dac has 236 picoseconds jitter. 

 I dont think its Jitter it appears to be a fundamental error in imaging (like a crazy remix of imaging in some tracks)



 I ran the intensive testing for my STX(side note: and for ST as well) on 16bit/44.1kHz, 24bit/48kHz, 24bit/96kHz, 24bit/192kHz signal, and checked Phase Delay and Phase Response every time, there is no anomalies at all. The results for both channels are matched very well._

 

I am really surprised but appreciate this information.

 As you own both do you understand what I mean?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know the specs of the STX are supposedly better but the imaging of the stx seems so fundamentally wrong that I wonder whether there are some phase anomalies on the STX?

 Is it just me that heard this?

 I still have an STX but will probably replace it with another ST.

 Macrog_

 

No, your right. I prefer the ST over the STX also.
 I don't think the STX is all messed up for phase etc.. In fact, I never seen anything to suggest there was anything wrong with the phase or output at all. I check for phasing issue etc when measuring the cards.


----------



## giedrys

Technical knowledge and super sensitive ears that most of you guys have amazes and scares me
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For me things are a little more simple:

 Just received ST from egg yesterday and been listening extensively with my stock D2000. 

 I don't know how much more this card can be improved, but to me it sounds fantastic out of the box, especially with some good Hi-Res material. 

 I usually hate these cliches, but it's truly "night and day" difference when comparing to my previous Auzentech card.

 Back to listening...


----------



## Alexander01

Is the ST less irritating with the treble? I couldn't listen to my 320Kbps MP3 on the STX. They were so loud/agressive/harsh with the 16k treble maxxed in the Xonar's EQ. Does the ST also have that harsh treble with the 16k treble turned up? I like alot treble (because it helps the soundstage with electronic music) but not that harsh/loud/agressive treble. It needs to be soft and airy. No sharp/agressive edges that causes listening fatigue.

 I still can't understand it that so many people like the Xonar Essence. I heard Sibilance complaints from people with the Sennheiser HD650, HD800, Denon AH-D7000. What headphone does actually sound nice and doesn't cause listening fatigue with the Xonar Essence Headphone AMP?


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the ST less irritating with the treble? I couldn't listen to my 320Kbps MP3 on the STX. They were so loud/agressive/harsh with the 16k treble maxxed in the Xonar's EQ. Does the ST also have that harsh treble with the 16k treble turned up? I like alot treble (because it helps the soundstage with electronic music) but not that harsh/loud/agressive treble. It needs to be soft and airy. No sharp/agressive edges that causes listening fatigue.

 I still can't understand it that so many people like the Xonar Essence. I heard Sibilance complaints from people with the Sennheiser HD650, HD800, Denon AH-D7000. What headphone does actually sound nice and doesn't cause listening fatigue with the Xonar Essence Headphone AMP?_

 

Every 3 dbs you increase a band on the eq doubles the wattage. It would be a miracle if it wasnt clipping badly. That is probably distortion from clipping you are hearing. I is always better to use equalizers to reduce bands rather than increase as you dont get distortion this way.

 The ST and STX sound best in HiFi mode with nil equalisation

 I too like electronic music but dont equalise it.

 Regards

 Macrog


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As you own both do you understand what I mean?_

 

Part 1. Objective Factors for ST/STX comparison
 The major circuits in audio path such as DAC, differential I/V converter circuit, buffer, headphone OpAmp circuit etc are exactly same between ST and STX.

 The main difference between ST and STX are (1) PCIE--> PCI bridge chip. (2) CS2000 jitter reduction circuit. (3) Expansion connector on ST for daughter board.

 For PCIE--> PCI bridge chip on STX board, someone might say it is a problem. But for new computer with X48, X58 chipset, the real question is whether the chipset itself supports legacy PCI interface. From the spec sheet I checked, they only mentioned PCI-E.(If someone can help to confirm these chipsets support PCI natively and directly, I would appreciate the help.) If the answer is No, there much be PCI-E-->PCI bridge chip somewhere on the motherboard. So who cares whether this PCI-E-->PCI bridge chip is on the motherboard or the STX card.

 For the CS2000 jitter reduction circuit, ASUS claims about 30% jitter reduction, if you believe you can hear the audio quality difference between 180 picoseconds jitter(Stereophile's STX test result which is already very very low.) and 120 picoseconds jitter, then this is the main reason for you to believe ST is better than STX.

 If you have needs for daughter board, then you want ST anyway.

 Part 2. Subjective Factors
 Everyone might have different taste, different hardware configuration, different favorite music etc, so no absolutely right answer.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes the 8788 variants are Native PCI. Pretty much everybody around here who has tested both says they hear differences. As you pointed out the only real differences are the bridging chip and the C2000 jitter reduction chip. People may be hearing what they want to hear or there might actually be a difference between the two.


----------



## germanium

I'm definately very happy with my STX which I D.C. coupled the line out. Very full bodied yet extremely articulate. The D.C. coupling is probably a bigger difference than the jitter reduction chip will make & a great equalizer in terms of sound quality when comparing to high end DACs & other digital componants.


----------



## jalyst

The main dev for the Linux driver explained to me many moons ago that he hopes to have something just as good if not better (DRM **** is a whole other kettle of fish) than Windows. Sounds as though his prophethising is coming true 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will know myself very soon... 
 I intend to do some testing in Win 7 and a 'stripped/customised' Ubuntu.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_quite honestly, I think the soundcard would fare far better on Linux with some proper drivers...the C-Media resampling mumbo-jumbo only makes things fussier and messier, Asus should learn better.
*PS:* hah! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6300537-post1240.html_


----------



## jalyst

Sounds like you need to try the ATH-AD900 or surrounding models. 
 They're known for their more natural sound in the mid to highs...
 With the AD900 you don't even need the amp....

 But Macrog's suggestion is the best way to go 1st......

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the ST less irritating with the treble? I couldn't listen to my 320Kbps MP3 on the STX. They were so loud/agressive/harsh with the 16k treble maxxed in the Xonar's EQ. Does the ST also have that harsh treble with the 16k treble turned up? I like alot treble (because it helps the soundstage with electronic music) but not that harsh/loud/agressive treble. It needs to be soft and airy. No sharp/agressive edges that causes listening fatigue.

 I still can't understand it that so many people like the Xonar Essence. I heard Sibilance complaints from people with the Sennheiser HD650, HD800, Denon AH-D7000. What headphone does actually sound nice and doesn't cause listening fatigue with the Xonar Essence Headphone AMP?_


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the ST less irritating with the treble? I couldn't listen to my 320Kbps MP3 on the STX. They were so loud/agressive/harsh with the 16k treble maxxed in the Xonar's EQ. Does the ST also have that harsh treble with the 16k treble turned up? I like alot treble (because it helps the soundstage with electronic music) but not that harsh/loud/agressive treble. It needs to be soft and airy. No sharp/agressive edges that causes listening fatigue.

 I still can't understand it that so many people like the Xonar Essence. I heard Sibilance complaints from people with the Sennheiser HD650, HD800, Denon AH-D7000. What headphone does actually sound nice and doesn't cause listening fatigue with the Xonar Essence Headphone AMP?_

 

With those kind of settings I would expect any source to sound irritating with lots of listener fatigue on all but the most treble shy of speakers or headphones & possibly even them. That is even if the signal wasn't being clipped which I can assure you that it probably is with most electronic music. Those are completely unreasonable settings. I use speakers & headphones that are pretty well balanced & have plenty of soundstage with excellent depth in any music that calls for it & I run without any EQ.

 Most electronic music I've heard already have way over the top boosted treble from the studio. This can be easily seen in the spectrum analysis even inside windows media player so its not a matter of the soundcard sounding harsh because of deficiencies of its own. The soundcard is just reproducing what is there which is already way over boosted in the treble. So it doesn't surprise me that it would sound harsh, irritating & cause listener fatigue when you boost already overboosted treble by anouther 12db or more. Note that the STX allows 20db boost or cut at 16KHz


----------



## krisno

Anyone here has got a hold of the stereophile STX review? Can anyone give me link or send om pm?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is the ST less irritating with the treble? I couldn't listen to my 320Kbps MP3 on the STX. They were so loud/agressive/harsh with the 16k treble maxxed in the Xonar's EQ. Does the ST also have that harsh treble with the 16k treble turned up? I like alot treble (because it helps the soundstage with electronic music) but not that harsh/loud/agressive treble. It needs to be soft and airy. No sharp/agressive edges that causes listening fatigue.

 I still can't understand it that so many people like the Xonar Essence. I heard Sibilance complaints from people with the Sennheiser HD650, HD800, Denon AH-D7000. What headphone does actually sound nice and doesn't cause listening fatigue with the Xonar Essence Headphone AMP?_

 

So your complaining about loud agressive trebles, yet cranking up the 16Khz slider to max? -Seems that might be the issue right there. 
 I think any music with the 16K fader cranked would give you a headache and listening fatgiue. Try backing off a bit on that slider. If you prefer this type of EQ, maybe leave the STX EQ flat and use the EQ of your player.
 Also, if your using the headphone amplifer try backing off on the gain a bit. I have seen a few people crank the gain too high for their headphones.
 Good luck.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone here has got a hold of the stereophile STX review? Can anyone give me link or send om pm?_

 

It costs money to read it & it takes a special reader. But here is the link to buy a subscription which you have to have to read anything current.


https://www.circsource.com/store/Sub...rceCode=I9ABNN


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 For PCIE--> PCI bridge chip on STX board, someone might say it is a problem. But for new computer with X48, X58 chipset, the real question is whether the chipset itself supports legacy PCI interface. From the spec sheet I checked, they only mentioned PCI-E.(If someone can help to confirm these chipsets support PCI natively and directly, I would appreciate the help.) If the answer is No, there much be PCI-E-->PCI bridge chip somewhere on the motherboard. So who cares whether this PCI-E-->PCI bridge chip is on the motherboard or the STX card._

 

Yes I have a X58 chipset motherboard & it does have standard PCI slots as well as PCI express, however there are some X58 boards that do not have standard PCI slots or they may be very inconveniently placed. Avoid the supercomputer boards as they generally do not suport standard PCI slots as they can have 7 PCI express X16 slots. These may not be the best boards for any kind of audio interface as they tend to have excessive latency due to add on chips by NVidia.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes I have a X58 chipset motherboard & it does have standard PCI slots as well as PCI express, however there are some X58 boards that do not have standard PCI slots or they may be very inconveniently placed. Avoid the supercomputer boards as they generally do not suport standard PCI slots as they can have 7 PCI express X16 slots. These may not be the best boards for any kind of audio interface as they tend to have excessive latency due to add on chips by NVidia._

 

To be clear, my question is whether the X48/X58 chipset itself supports legacy PCI interface.

 My focus is the X48/X58 chipset, NOT the motherboard using X48/X58 chipset.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To be clear, my question is whether the X48/X58 chipset itself supports legacy PCI interface.

 My focus is the X48/X58 chipset, NOT the motherboard using X48/X58 chipset. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

yes it does


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* 
_yes it does_

 

Thanks!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm definately very happy with my STX which I D.C. coupled the line out._

 

For the D.C. coupled line out, do you mean remove/desolder two capacitors pointed by red arrow in picture below, then short the "+ pad" and "- pad" for each capacitor?






 How about the two resistors and four small caps in the red circle? Did you touch them as well? I will pull the ST/STX out of my PC and have a look.


----------



## leeperry

BTW, some parts of the Stereophile test have been scanned here: Xonar Essence STX with built-in headphone amplifier

 you can understand why they didn't like the ST ^^

 and it's funny how they behave like if before the Essence cards there simply was no way to listen to music on a computer(God forbid, they're an audiophile magazine after all, we need 120dB SNR or nuttin')...I guess Asus showed them the light(pun intended 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## BoilermakerFan

I've kind of been following along with the thread, but I have to admit I haven't read every post...

 Has anyone tried the A/D to capture vinyl through a phono stage and archive any of their vinyl?

 I was going to buy a used M-Audio Audiophile FireWire to serve that purpose and mod it with better caps, but perhaps the Xonar St or STX will better serve my needs? I'd probably mod it to get rid of the 3.5mm or 1/4" jack in favor of RCAs.

 FWIW, I'll be using a AudioSector phono stage PCB and nearly followed Peter's BOM, but used Silmic caps instead of the big BG NXs in the PSU and I'm using VitQ output caps instead of the V-Caps he used...


----------



## krisno

Thanks!

 He really liked it I see... I will get the ST as I have these AKG K 701s. Will se if I in the end replace opamp with discrete - but then have to make som hole in the shielding, will run cable and glue the discrete opamp to the outside of the shieldings.

 Does discrete opamps work fine on this card? Voltage etc is ok?

 K


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks!



 For the D.C. coupled line out, do you mean remove/desolder two capacitors pointed by red arrow in picture below, then short the "+ pad" and "- pad" for each capacitor?






 How about the two resistors and four small caps in the red circle? Did you touch them as well? I will pull the ST/STX out of my PC and have a look._

 

Just removed the 2 big Caps & put wire in thier place didn't touch anything else here.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just removed the 2 big Caps & put wire in thier place didn't touch anything else here._

 

Thanks!

 Actually just put in a wire should be OK if someone does not know how to desolder these caps.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks!

 Actually just put in a wire should be OK if someone does not know how to desolder these caps._

 

correct


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_correct_

 

 These two caps are just there to form high pass RC filter for blocking the DC.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For my STX, I will do some reverse engineering later to see the complete details. These two caps are just there to form high pass RC filter for blocking the DC._

 

True but they do have an impact on sound quality. Enough to bring the performance up to anouther level. Most of the shorcomings compared to the more expensive DAC in the stereophile article can be traced to these caps.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_True but they do have an impact on sound quality. Enough to bring the performance up to anouther level. Most of the shorcomings compared to the more expensive DAC in the stereophile article can be traced to these caps._

 

Remove these caps will pose DC offset risk to at least some of the card too. Not every Head-Fier has DMM in hands.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Remove these caps will pose DC offset risk to at least some of the card too. Not every Head-Fier has DMM in hands._

 

The D.C. offset risk is only to any outlying equipment as this only feeds the RCA jacks. D.C. offset is very low on these cards though I do understand your trepidation in doing this mod as some equipment is sensitive to D.C. offset. The D.C. offset I measured is so low that even those amps that are sensitive would have no problems. Less than 2 millivolts in my case. Many amps have more than this coming from thier own input! My old adcom GFA 545 had 35 millivolts at it's input with nothing connected. With a gain of more than 16X this amp was not compatable with being modded to true D.C. coupling in & of it self but did not mind being driven from a D.C. coupled preamp. Everything else in the output circuit is already D.C. coupled on this sound card including the sound taken from the buffer amp & sent to the front panel when you select front panel 2 speakers. This output bypasses the coupling caps. Come to think of it this is a good way to test it without having to do anything to the card itself.

 Some soundcards such as the Xonar D2/PM are D.C. coupled from the factory. This card uses the exact same opamps just in a smaller package.


----------



## jalyst

Hmm, a little over my head right now... 
 I intend to get into this a whole lot more soon though.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The D.C. offset risk is only to any outlying equipment as this only feeds the RCA jacks. D.C. offset is very low on these cards though I do understand your trepidation in doing this mod as some equipment is sensitive to D.C. offset. The D.C. offset I measured is so low that even those amps that are sensitive would have no problems. Less than 2 millivolts in my case. Many amps have more than this coming from thier own input! _

 

Yes. Your points are same as what I want to say in my reply "Remove these caps will pose DC offset risk to at least some of the card too."


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes. Your points are same as what I want to say in my reply "Remove these caps will pose DC offset risk to at least some of the card too."_

 

You missread me. The D.C. off set coming from the input of the following amp is of no consequence as its current is very very low & is protected by at least 1Kohm of resistance at the input of the following amp. The opamp on the card can easily handle this amount of current & is therefore no threat at all to the card. I have been doing this mod for years & have yet to have a single problem as a result of it.


----------



## Ra97oR

.


----------



## OpTicaL

Any news on a Deluxe version with the H6 card? I really don't want to buy the ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 Deluxe just for the H6 card, but I will if I have to. I'll just sell the main card off.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You missread me. The D.C. off set coming from the input of the following amp is of no consequence as its current is very very low & is protected by at least 1Kohm of resistance at the input of the following amp. The opamp on the card can easily handle this amount of current & is therefore no threat at all to the card. I have been doing this mod for years & have yet to have a single problem as a result of it._

 

Focus on the technical stuff here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 When we worry about the DC offset of a source(in this case it is STX), it is common sense that the DC offset is at the output(In this case, it is RCA output jack) of the source(STX).

 For your case, less than 2 millivolts DC offset at RCA output of STX. But you can not guaranty all the rest STXs around the world MUST have such low DC offset. ASUS Hardware developers are not nuts, these two caps there have their meaning to the circuit, although they also introduce the problems such as phase shift, decrease in sonic clarity etc. 

 The problem caused by the DC offset is not against STX card itself. A lot headphone amps are DC coupled without input caps. If my STX RCA output has 5mv DC offset, and I use DC coupled headphone amp with gain 11, personally I won't be comfortable to let my HD650 to deal with about 55mv DC offset at the headphone amp's output jacks. 

 If we remove these two caps from the STX board then short the pads, we avoid cap related issues in audio path,then no phase shift, no decrease in sonic clarity etc. But we have to keep in mind that we risk damaging our expensive headphones if we do this. STX that has a low DC offset now may develop a problem tomorrow.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Focus on the technical stuff here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When we worry about the DC offset of a source(in this case it is STX), it is common sense that the DC offset is at the output(In this case, it is RCA output jack) of the source(STX).

 For your case, less than 2 millivolts DC offset at RCA output of STX. But you can not guaranty all the rest STXs around the world MUST have such low DC offset. ASUS Hardware developers are not nuts, these two caps there have their meaning to the circuit, although they also introduce the problems such as phase shift, decrease in sonic clarity etc. 

 The problem caused by the DC offset is not against STX card itself. A lot headphone amps are DC coupled without input caps. If my STX RCA output has 5mv DC offset, and I use DC coupled headphone amp with gain 11, personally I won't be comfortable to let my HD650 to deal with about 55mv DC offset at the headphone amp's output jacks. 

 If we remove these two caps from the STX board then short the pads, we avoid cap related issues in audio path,then no phase shift, no decrease in sonic clarity etc. But we have to keep in mind that we risk damaging our expensive headphones if we do this. STX that has a low DC offset now may develop a problem tomorrow._

 

Bear this in mind also that since many amps already have some D.C. offset of thier own if the D.C. offset on the Xonar card is lower than the D.C. offset of the input of the following amp then the D.C. output of the following amp will in fact also be lowered as the D.C. offset of the input of the following amp will be largely neutralized by the buffer amp on the STX-ST card. D.C. offset at the output of the following amp tracks the input D.C. offset times whatever the gain is if it is also D.C. coupled. So in that case D.C. coupling of the Essense cards will actually neutralize the D.C. offset in the following amp & improve its performance not degrade it if the xonars D.C. offset output is less, but this only works of course if there is no cap. 

 55mv D.C. offset is not going to hurt any headphone extant, not even low impedance ones let alone a high impedance one like the HD650. These the high impedance would limit the current to .000018 amp or .000001 watt into 300 ohms. & if there is D.C. offset at the input of the following amp that is greater than The D.C. offset of the output of the Essence cards leaving the cap in will actually do more harm than removing it if the D.C. offset of the input of the following amp is significantly higher.

 The Essense card should easily & safely be able to nuetralize up to 500mv of D.C. offset at the input of the following amp. This is more than the card will ever see with any normal operating amp. The only problem arrises if there is a failure of the following amp or the output section of the card fails. Both of which are quite unlikely though not impossible. 500mv of D.C. through a 1Kohm resistor would only be about .5 milliamp & that is all the current the output of the card would have to absorb in this worst case senerio. Far below it's capabilities.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bear this in mind also that since many amps already have some D.C. offset of thier own if the D.C. offset on the Xonar card is lower than the D.C. offset of the input of the following amp then the D.C. output of the following amp will in fact also be lowered as the D.C. offset of the input of the following amp will be largely neutralized by the buffer amp on the STX-ST card. D.C. offset at the output of the following amp tracks the input D.C. offset times whatever the gain is if it is also D.C. coupled. So in that case D.C. coupling of the Essense cards will actually neutralize the D.C. offset in the following amp & improve its performance not degrade it if the xonars D.C. offset output is less, but this only works of course if there is no cap._

 

The big concern is the DC offset at the output of the DC coupled headphone amp and whether the DC offset impacts the sound quality, or even burn the headphone. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_55mv D.C. offset is not going to hurt any headphone extant, not even low impedance ones let alone a high impedance one like the HD650. These the high impedance would limit the current to .000018 amp or .000001 watt into 300 ohms. & if there is D.C. offset at the input of the following amp that is greater than The D.C. offset of the output of the Essence cards leaving the cap in will actually do more harm than removing it if the D.C. offset of the input of the following amp is significantly higher._

 

It is just the headphone owner's preference. As long as the DC offset voltage does not actually burn the headphone, someone might still "enjoy" the headphone even the DC offset also affect the dynamic range of the sound.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Essense card should easily & safely be able to nuetralize up to 500mv of D.C. offset at the input of the following amp. This is more than the card will ever see with any normal operating amp. The only problem arrises if there is a failure of the following amp or the output section of the card fails. Both of which are quite unlikely though not impossible. 500mv of D.C. through a 1Kohm resistor would only be about .5 milliamp & that is all the current the output of the card would have to absorb in this worst case senerio. Far below it's capabilities._

 

Not sure how many head-fier/DIYer can allow 500mv DC offset into his/her HD650 as it is obviously way tooooo high. Usually DIYer prefer the DC offset at headphone amp output less than 20mv if possible.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The big concern is the DC offset at the output of the DC coupled headphone amp and whether the DC offset impacts the sound quality, or even burn the headphone. 



 It is just the headphone owner's preference. As long as the DC offset voltage does not actually burn the headphone, someone might still "enjoy" the headphone even the DC offset also affect the dynamic range of the sound.



 Not sure how many head-fier/DIYer can allow 500mv DC offset into his/her HD650 as it is obviously way tooooo high. Usually DIYer prefer the DC offset at headphone amp output less than 20mv if possible._

 

you wanted technical information, I give it & you turn it around into something different from what I'm actually saying. Anybody that reads what I was saying with an open mind would actually see what I'm saying the 500mv was a worst case scenerio for the card to have to absorb which I said it would likely never see. Not talking of D.C. offset to the headphones in that situation but a very very unlikely situation involving just an unreal D.C. offset coming from the input of the following amp. In anouther situation I have actually seen 1 volt of input D.C. offset nullified by the output of the previous amp. This D.C. offset was self contained inside A powered speaker & never exposed to the outside world so again not a situation that the card will actually see. This can also be an advantage & is actually used by none other than bob carver to bias the output of his opamps to pure class A operation.


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you wanted technical information, I give it & you turn it around into something different from what I'm actually saying. Anybody that reads what I was saying with an open mind would actually see what I'm saying the 500mv was a worst case scenerio for the card to have to absorb which I said it would likely never see. Not talking of D.C. offset to the headphones in that situation but a very very unlikely situation involving just an unreal D.C. offset coming from the input of the following amp. In anouther situation I have actually seen 1 volt of input D.C. offset nullified by the output of the previous amp. This D.C. offset was self contained inside A powered speaker & never exposed to the outside world so again not a situation that the card will actually see. This can also be an advantage & is actually used by none other than bob carver to bias the output of his opamps to pure class A operation._

 

Nothing personal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is my last post about this DC offset topic.

 It really depends on the hardware configuration in the audio path to judge how much DC offset is OK to take. Generally speaking the excessive DC offset at the output jack of source is not preferred.


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

just got my st today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I gotta say..... ITS HUGE!!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nothing personal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 This is my last post about this DC offset topic.

 It really depends on the hardware configuration in the audio path to judge how much DC offset is OK to take. Generally speaking the excessive DC offset at the output jack of source is not preferred._

 

& the D.C. offset output of the Xonar card is in no way excessive by any measure.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OICWUTUDIDTHAR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just got my st today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I gotta say..... ITS HUGE!!_

 

Did you get the H6 with it? Whats your impression of the sound?


----------



## jalyst

Garmanium/Applegd, 
 Judging by this exchange I'm guessing you're the right people to ask 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Do you know of any good threads that focus purely on mods to the ST/STX? 
 Preferably with work-plans, schematics, photos etc.

 Thanks!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you wanted technical information, I give it & you turn it around into something different from what I'm actually saying. Anybody that reads what I was saying with an open mind would actually see what I'm saying the 500mv was a worst case scenerio for the card to have to absorb which I said it would likely never see. Not talking of D.C. offset to the headphones in that situation but a very very unlikely situation involving just an unreal D.C. offset coming from the input of the following amp. In anouther situation I have actually seen 1 volt of input D.C. offset nullified by the output of the previous amp. This D.C. offset was self contained inside A powered speaker & never exposed to the outside world so again not a situation that the card will actually see. This can also be an advantage & is actually used by none other than bob carver to bias the output of his opamps to pure class A operation._


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You will not hear any difference with D2X and Essence ST when pairing with X-can V8.. you wont actually hear any difference with any tube amp, as the tubes itself is the weak link. You can use quite cheap source and get the 'same' out via a tube amp. If you use solidstate you will probably hear the difference..._

 

There are many things that determine the sound of an amp that specs don't really tell. The fact is that even though solid state has better specs high end tubes do in fact sound better than transistors though the 2 sounds have been converging for years. Otherwise they wouldn't fetch the prices they do even for low power high quality tubes. We are talking upwards of 40,000 dollars for 50 watts or even less.

 Properly designed tubes can be even more revealing than trasistors yet sound more natural at the same time. A lot depends on the circuit layout, quality of the passive parts & most importantly the quality of the output transformer on power amps.


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

germanium;6316432 said:
			
		

> Did you get the H6 with it? Whats your impression of the sound?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## krisno

The secret regarding price is production of scale. If Mark Levinson made and sold as many as Asus Xonar ST their amps would cost 1/3.

 There probably is not much difference on ST and other run of the mill dacs. Also I presume the amplifier chip on the ST will sound as good as any solid state headphone amps. Difference with tubes, but that is because of tubes themself...


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

krisno your probably right, as I said for the price of this card (200) its unbeatable really. With a few amp modes you can really make it yours!! (if your into that kinda thing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## applegd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Garmanium/Applegd, 
 Do you know of any good threads that focus purely on mods to the ST/STX? Preferably with work-plans, schematics, photos etc.

 Thanks!_

 

I did a search in the past but I did not see any thread have decent details like schematics.

 Because of intellectual property concern, I think it is not allowed/ethical to post the complete schematics of ST/STX here. Sorry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The secret regarding price is production of scale. If Mark Levinson made and sold as many as Asus Xonar ST their amps would cost 1/3._

 

x2

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also I presume the amplifier chip on the ST will sound as good as any solid state headphone amps._

 

Just FYI. Base on my testing result for 330 ohm and 33 ohm load at ST/STX HP out jack, TPA6120A2 amplifier chip has better performance for high impedance phone.

 For low impedance phone, the solid state headphone amp with diamond buffer is much better.


----------



## germanium

OICWUTUDIDTHAR;6317819 said:
			
		

> germanium;6316432 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BoogieWoogie

hows this compared with xonar DX ?


----------



## krisno

germanium - what mods you done to your stx? do you like it?

 No i really disagree. I am armed with AKG K 701... with the X-can v3, except for a bit more details using a high expensive dac, the sound really did not change much - the tubes color the sound alot.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_germanium - what mods you done to your stx? do you like it?

 No i really disagree. I am armed with AKG K 701... with the X-can v3, except for a bit more details using a high expensive dac, the sound really did not change much - the tubes color the sound alot._

 

D.C. coupled the output is all. 

 You haven't really heard pro quality tubes. I have & they are incredably detailed & natural in thier presentation. Bear in mind that most of your recording use pro quality tubes somewhere in the mix. Some of the best ones use nothing but tube gear.


----------



## New2TheScene

I know this is slightly off topic, but I need the following info and can't find what I'm looking for in this thread. I've read multiple references to the Essence ST being fatiguing. Is this because if the high level of detail in the music, is it because the highs are harsh and over extended, or is is something different altogether.

 I've put off getting the Claro Halo, waiting for the Essence ST to be widely available here in the US. But now, with all I read about the ST being fatiguing, I'm wondering if the Claro Halo is a better choice. 

 I would like to appeal to any members who have had the benefit of hearing the Claro Halo and the Essence ST: I realize that they're close, but which has better sound? Personally, I value detail, resolution, and neutrality. Any pointed description of how the sound from these two differs would be very much appreciated.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *New2TheScene* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know this is slightly off topic, but I need the following info and can't find what I'm looking for in this thread. I've read multiple references to the Essence ST being fatiguing. Is this because if the high level of detail in the music, is it because the highs are harsh and over extended, or is is something different altogether.

 I've put off getting the Claro Halo, waiting for the Essence ST to be widely available here in the US. But now, with all I read about the ST being fatiguing, I'm wondering if the Claro Halo is a better choice. 

 I would like to appeal to any members who have had the benefit of hearing the Claro Halo and the Essence ST: I realize that they're close, but which has better sound? Personally, I value detail, resolution, and neutrality. Any pointed description of how the sound from these two differs would be very much appreciated._

 

I have made recordings with the STX & found the result to be indistinguishable from the source in direct comparisons proving the card is neutral. As to the aggresiveness that some report if they did a spectrum analysis of the music they find that sounds aggressive they would find overboosted highs in the music itself. This is no fault of the STX or ST but the recordings themselves. Unfortunately there are many recordings that this has been done. I have properly done recording in my posession that sound absolutely incredible on this card that I have (STX). I also have some that are overdone on the treble that sound somwhat aggressive but not to the unlistenable point.

 I've seen some on here that boost the treble all the way (20db) on these vary recordings then ask why it sounds so aggressive.

 I find the sound Warm, very tube like & highly detailed without the glare of say the X-Fi Elite pro when compared to the Elite Pro both being modded to D.C. coupling. The bass is full & rich yet tight with solid impact.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *applegd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did a search in the past but I did not see any thread have decent details like schematics.

 Because of intellectual property concern, I think it is not allowed/ethical to post the complete schematics of ST/STX here. Sorry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Bummer, 

 I was hoping there'd be at least one other thread that focuses on modding the ST (not necessarily w/schematics). 

 I guess this is the only one?!
 Can anyone recommend some of the trickier mods one can do?
 I'd like to research how I'd go about doing it!

 I will of course also experiment with swapping in/out opamps.

 Thank-you


----------



## puzl

i do love this card, but i just built a major new pc, with top of the range components in every sector (i7, hd5870, asus p6t, 6gb 2000mhz ram etc....) and unfortunately, i cannot use my stx with my woo audio wa2 without getting major computer noise leaking into it.

 literally every time i move my mouse or the cpu process becomes intensive, i hear everything 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i'm using hd800s and strangely enough, when i plug them directly into the headphone out jack, it is perfect. so i guess it's the wa2 which is very sensitive to noise. strange how it never happened before on my last computer...

 anyway i've ordered a nuforce udac and run the headphones from a usb external dac for a while (whilst also connected to my wa2 of course). hopefully that will fix the problem, but its a shame to only use my xonar for speakers now


----------



## New2TheScene

Germanium,

 Thanks for the response. I agree that many recordings are far from neutral, and that alll recordings are the start of the audio reproduction chains, and therefore are a factor in the final result.

 The reason I asked my question is that there any been posts from people who say that the ST is fatiguing when compared to the STX. People seem to be attributing it to the more precise clock. Is there anyone who has the ST and can comment on how exactly the sound is fatiguing. And if there is anyone who can compare it to the Claro Halo, that would be great.


----------



## krisno

The clock / de-jitter is supposed to remove harshness - its all just hype and lies my friend... and I think people here are right - it is the music which inhibits the flaw, not the soundcard.

 GERMANIUM: What do you mean by 'glare' and elite pro? What is glare?


 There is not much to mod on the ST / STX except for swapping opamps, you will not hear any difference whatsoever other than placebo really. 

 I would try the burson opamps, if not - maybe keep the stock. The stock ST/STX opamp combo is recommended from Texas Instruments.. the company which makes both the opamps, the DAC chip AND the headphone amplifier on the card.

 enjoy! Probably your best buy in hifi ever....


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The clock / de-jitter is supposed to remove harshness - its all just hype and lies my friend... and I think people here are right - it is the music which inhibits the flaw, not the soundcard.

 GERMANIUM: What do you mean by 'glare' and elite pro? What is glare?


 There is not much to mod on the ST / STX except for swapping opamps, you will not hear any difference whatsoever other than placebo really. 

 I would try the burson opamps, if not - maybe keep the stock. The stock ST/STX opamp combo is recommended from Texas Instruments.. the company which makes both the opamps, the DAC chip AND the headphone amplifier on the card.

 enjoy! Probably your best buy in hifi ever...._

 

Other than the direct coupling of the output everything about the output of my card is indeed stock. The Elite pro has glare especially when you D.C. couple the DAC to the buffer. This allows you to hear more of the music but also brings out the faults in the filter networks which are low grade on the Elite Pro. 

 Glare is a upper midrange lower treble phenominon that gives the music a bright & somewhat glassy texture. Improving the output filter would probably fix this glare but on the Elite pro it is all done with surface mount componants & are very tiny & the traces are very delicate so I decided not to mess with them. The Xonar cards that I tried are free of this glare even when D.C. coupled & sound even more detailed than the Elite Pro not to mention less conjested. 

 Capacitor coupling with electrolytics hided a host of sonic problems but also hides some of the music as well. Metalised film coupling caps are much better but won't fit in the space required by the soundcard. Good metalised film caps sound as good as D.C. coupling. Due to space conciderations D.C. coupling is the only other real option to get rid of the losses due to the electrolytic coupling caps.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Other than the direct coupling of the output everything about the output of my card is indeed stock. ._

 

Could you please elaborate upon this?
 Can you briefly but clearly (no unnecessary jingo) outline how one does this?

 Is it the only mod you're aware of that can have a significant impact?
 (aside form opamps)

 Thank-you.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could you please elaborate upon this?
 Can you briefly but clearly (no unnecessary jingo) outline how one does this?

 Is it the only mod you're aware of that can have a significant impact?
 (aside form opamps)

 Thank-you._

 

Caps ce8 & ce14 are the 2 electrolytic coupling caps for the line out. You can either desolder them & remove them & put wire in thier place or you can just solder A wire across the terminals on the back side of the card. Also if you connect the fronpanel connector up you can select the FP 2 speakers from the output selector & have D.C. coupled line out without doing anything to output caps as this output bypasses the caps & might be a good way to test to see if thats what you really want. Bear in mind though going this route may pic up some noise from the inside of the computer (FP 2speaker).

 This is one of the most important changes that one can make & truely maintain the cards neutrality while getting a more detailed sound. Opamp changes listed here for the most part alters the sound signature fron neutral to brighter but some are darker. Some of the last ones posted in the STX thread seem promising as far as neutrality though. 

 Other mods wouldbe power supply & filter mods I'm pretty happy with the filters though & believe that messing with these without a intimate knowledge of how filters work & how they interact with the opamps is asking for more problems than it is worth. 

 That pretty much leaves power supply mods which in some cases can have a huge effect. Mainly more extended bass & possibly smoother highs are the improvements I would likely see here.

 I do truely find the card neutral though the way it is.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/xo...0/index87.html


----------



## krisno

Switch the opamps - that is only thing worth doing what regards computer audio. Everything else will be just neglible.

 I have said it before - no matter what I bought for my laptop, no matter what dac, I never got the musicality that i got from a Sony £50 dvd player connected to x-can v3. Dunno what causes this - kernel streaming error, but even with Asio it did not sound half as good and alive. Even tried with NOS dac and jupiter beewax caps, didnt cut it...

 So save your money.. hehe. if you want change the buffer opamps, thats it..


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Switch the opamps - that is only thing worth doing what regards computer audio. Everything else will be just neglible._

 

I think most that have actually modded soundcards would disagree.
 Opamp mods are usually done first as they are the easiest. Removing the coupling caps can have a very positive affect on the sound quality also.
 There are many mods you can do to any source to improve the sound.
 That is the point of modifications.


----------



## krisno

Well - maybe small differences, just small and neglible if you ask me. but that is my thoughts. The differences anyways are masked alot by using a tube amp... 

 k


----------



## krisno

But guys - I have the AKG K 701 myself. I tried the most expensive Ultrasones 2500 ed. They were nice, AKGs are a bit sterile.... actually some of the best and most alive I heard with the AKG K 701 was using a Lehmann OPA 2134 clone (2134 on the pre stage, and very powerfull discrete on the power stage). I hope the xonar will sound a bit like that experience - but what is the best match for the xonar ST? regarding headphones?


----------



## germanium

Those experiencing noise both hum-buzz & computer noise may want to check for gound loops as ground loops could be the problem. I had this to a very small degree & noticed a slight increase in hum & computer noise but only if my preamp was up near full output (3/4 volume or more).I spent a couple hours ridding my system of it & found it was a ground loop formed between my powered speakers, preamp, computer through the power cables of the computer & speaker & passing through the interconnects between those componants. 

 I lifted the ground of the speakers & that broke the ground loop & now I have complete total silence with no signal even with the volume turned all the way up on the preamp (more than 20db gain). This no matter what my computer is doing. All componants now grounded through the computer power cord. Music still plays excellant if not even better than before. Bear in mind I was running my checks at extremely high gain. Probably as high if not higher than most power amps have so the noise was pretty low to start with but I wanted I complete silence even at full gain.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Caps ce8 & ce14 are the 2 electrolytic coupling caps for the line out. You can either desolder them & remove them & put wire in thier place or you can just solder A wire across the terminals on the back side of the card. Also if you connect the fronpanel connector up you can select the FP 2 speakers from the output selector & have D.C. coupled line out without doing anything to output caps as this output bypasses the caps & might be a good way to test to see if thats what you really want. Bear in mind though going this route may pic up some noise from the inside of the computer (FP 2speaker).

 This is one of the most important changes that one can make & truely maintain the cards neutrality while getting a more detailed sound. Opamp changes listed here for the most part alters the sound signature fron neutral to brighter but some are darker. Some of the last ones posted in the STX thread seem promising as far as neutrality though. 

 Other mods wouldbe power supply & filter mods I'm pretty happy with the filters though & believe that messing with these without a intimate knowledge of how filters work & how they interact with the opamps is asking for more problems than it is worth. 

 That pretty much leaves power supply mods which in some cases can have a huge effect. Mainly more extended bass & possibly smoother highs are the improvements I would likely see here.

 I do truely find the card neutral though the way it is.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/xo...0/index87.html_

 

Thank-you, 

 I've filled this for when I get round to focussing on such mods.
 I will probably start with opamps 1st though...

 All the best.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Removing the coupling caps is a bit advanced for some users. If you want to change the sound start with the opamps as you said and if your interested work your way up to the decoupling mod or others.


----------



## krisno

ROBscix have you tried the OPA2137P yet on the xonar? I have tried the 2134 a couple of times. They have good bass and dark and very nice and comfortable match with the bright AKG K 701s. BUT they severy shrinked the soundstage, vocals sounded tiny etc.... How are they opa2137s - do they fix the disadvantage the opa2134 had?

 K


----------



## ROBSCIX

I was trying them on another circuit and they sounded decent. I didn't really have a chance to test them thoroughly though so I will save my opinion unitil I can get a good listen. 
 I also built a few dual 137 units..as I wrote in the opamp thread, many opamp families single channel units will provide better clarity and channel seperation then a similar dual channel unit. This is usually because the circuit are pretty much isolated for on another, there are some other factors also.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Removing the coupling caps is a bit advanced for some users. If you want to change the sound start with the opamps as you said and if your interested work your way up to the decoupling mod or others._

 

yeah thanks for the advice, I don't intend to get ahead of myself.

 Cheers


----------



## germanium

Like I said you can test it though the FP 2 speaker setting if you have the front panel connectors plugged in as these are D.C. coupled & have low output impedance so cables shouldn't negatively effect the sound so this is a good way to test it to see if thats what you really want. This can be done with no modification whatsoever to the card.


----------



## krisno

OK GUYS. The Xonar ST is orderd.... looking forward to try it.

 Can someone here tell me what opamp to choose if I want it sound even darker?


----------



## ROBSCIX

I suggest you wait until you get the card and allow it to burn in then decide what you want to change.


----------



## krisno

Yes well - if the jr2114 or whatever they are are as soft to the ears as opa 2134 then all is good.

 its intereseting that the award winning Lehmann amp is based on OPA 2134 at input. I had a clone once and it really masks out the highs quite nicly on the AKGs. But I agree... will tell you what I think.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The OPA2134 have that Burrbrown sound, the tubby bass and the glossy high range. If that is what your talking about as softness. If you like the sound of the OPA2134's you can always just snap in a couple of those for I/V.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like I said you can test it though the FP 2 speaker setting if you have the front panel connectors plugged in as these are D.C. coupled & have low output impedance so cables shouldn't negatively effect the sound so this is a good way to test it to see if thats what you really want. This can be done with no modification whatsoever to the card._

 

hmm not really clear to me what you're saying, i guess i need to be more familiar with the card 1st. 
 It's still in it's packaging while I finish-off some other projects


----------



## krisno

robscix - its not soft, but its smooth - the opa2134. Really non fatiguing.... nice with the AKGs. I will try the card and we will see..


----------



## ROBSCIX

As I said, if that is the sound your after install a couple.


----------



## Mphile

Im stuck with this SRH840 being driven by my utter crap onboard sound. It sounds utter crap too. I am waiting for a PCI-E version of the Essence ST with 5.1/7.1 out and a headphone amp, when the hell is a PCI-E Essence ST coming out?!? I guess oxygen needs to make a native chip first, god knows when

 Im actually going to consider the Titanium HD if its as good as the ST. Tired of waiting..


----------



## giedrys

Wondering how much power ST draws from power supply? Couldn't find in tech specs.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like I said you can test it though the FP 2 speaker setting if you have the front panel connectors plugged in as these are D.C. coupled & have low output impedance so cables shouldn't negatively effect the sound so this is a good way to test it to see if thats what you really want. This can be done with no modification whatsoever to the card._

 

I made a mistake here. The FP2 is indeed D.C. coupled but it is connected to the headphone amp & not the buffer amp as originally thought. The D.C. off set is higher on the headphone amp output, about 15millivolts which is a little higher than I would like to see but still acceptable with most amps but not with high gain D.C. coupled amps. Low gain is ok.


----------



## Alexander01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've seen some on here that boost the treble all the way (20db) on these vary recordings then ask why it sounds so aggressive._

 


 That does say something about the card and not about the music. Alot of MP3 ripped in high quality is sounding agressive and loud with this card. The harshness in the highs is not something that is in the music. The card is adding this. I should be able to maximize the 16khz treble with +20db without having listening fatigue. If the card's treble is from high quality without any spikes/harshness there would be no listening fatigue at all. I did this this with a couple of X-Fi cards with the 16khz on the X-Fi Equalizer and also with the 16khz on the WMP Equalizer. And even BOTH at the same time! (I value treble very much with electronic music). And guess what? Even with both Equalizers maxed out with the 16khz the trebles were still soft and airy WITHOUT any spikes or harshness.

 That says alot about the treble quality of the X-Fi cards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also the X-Fi cards have better textured bass that reaches lower then the Xonar STX. Same goes for the soundstage and stereo image. The X-Fi has better stereo seperation and the soundstage goes deeper (more intense).

 I think the Xonar STX/ST cards are very overrated. Yes they are super clear and loud and have alot of energy. But is that all you value in music quality?

 Just wait for the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the Xonar STX/ST cards are very overrated. Yes they are super clear and loud and have alot of energy. But is that all you value in music quality?_

 

ditto, and 44.1 is a terrible idea on this card anyway...proofs?

 1) there's no 22Mhz multiple clock, so jitter at 44.1 is just plain bad: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6336952-post3.html

 proper soundcards(Envy24, m2tech hiface) carry 2 discrete clocks!

 2) major noise issue at 44.1kHz when non shill reviewers test it: Two in One: Asus Xonar Essence STX Sound Card Review (page 8) - X-bit labs
  Quote:


 why is the odd problem with the noise level at 44.1 kHz not solved since the Xonar D2? 
 

it was thoroughly explained in their D2 review: Universal Soldier: ASUS Xonar D2 PM Sound Card Review - X-bit labs

 the issue has been there since the very beginning of the Xonar serie...talk about lazy design engineers!

 but you know we're on head-fi, there's a "sheep" phenomena here...it's the same in most sections, one shill that got it for free says "OMG IT ROX!!11!", then ppl jump on it, then they start rubbing each other's back "OMG YOU4RE RIGHT!!!!" and there you go...perfect business plan 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 then after a while, many ppl get bored of its agressive sound and go for a quick sale, and the most adventurous pull off all the caps, change the clock and whatnot...it's a semi-DIY soundcard basically 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 be warned that you will soon to be called an incompetent, a dumb troll, someone who cannot be trusted because you don't play "teh" game those in the know want you to..


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That does say something about the card and not about the music. Alot of MP3 ripped in high quality is sounding agressive and loud with this card. The harshness in the highs is not something that is in the music. The card is adding this. I should be able to maximize the 16khz treble with +20db without having listening fatigue. If the card's treble is from high quality without any spikes/harshness there would be no listening fatigue at all. I did this this with a couple of X-Fi cards with the 16khz on the X-Fi Equalizer and also with the 16khz on the WMP Equalizer. And even BOTH at the same time! (I value treble very much with electronic music). And guess what? Even with both Equalizers maxed out with the 16khz the trebles were still soft and airy WITHOUT any spikes or harshness.

 That says alot about the treble quality of the X-Fi cards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also the X-Fi cards have better textured bass that reaches lower then the Xonar STX. Same goes for the soundstage and stereo image. The X-Fi has better stereo seperation and the soundstage goes deeper (more intense).

 I think the Xonar STX/ST cards are very overrated. Yes they are super clear and loud and have alot of energy. But is that all you value in music quality?

 Just wait for the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

cough* fanboy alert *cough

 have fun with your x-fi crystalizer and cms-3d...


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That does say something about the card and not about the music. Alot of MP3 ripped in high quality is sounding agressive and loud with this card. The harshness in the highs is not something that is in the music. The card is adding this. I should be able to maximize the 16khz treble with +20db without having listening fatigue. If the card's treble is from high quality without any spikes/harshness there would be no listening fatigue at all. I did this this with a couple of X-Fi cards with the 16khz on the X-Fi Equalizer and also with the 16khz on the WMP Equalizer. And even BOTH at the same time! (I value treble very much with electronic music). And guess what? Even with both Equalizers maxed out with the 16khz the trebles were still soft and airy WITHOUT any spikes or harshness.

 That says alot about the treble quality of the X-Fi cards 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Also the X-Fi cards have better textured bass that reaches lower then the Xonar STX. Same goes for the soundstage and stereo image. The X-Fi has better stereo seperation and the soundstage goes deeper (more intense).

 I think the Xonar STX/ST cards are very overrated. Yes they are super clear and loud and have alot of energy. But is that all you value in music quality?

 Just wait for the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Looks like someone really does not understand the whole concept of digital equalization & how boosting any frquency can result in clipping of the DACs with very little boost. You are not boosting in the analog domain, you are boosting in the digital domain. If you have music that is already near clipping even boosting 2db can be enough to make it sound really bad as in aggressive. Same does happen in the analog domain to but typically this happens between the source & poweramp & as long as the power amp has sufficient headroom as in not turned up excessively you can boost the hell out of any frequency you want. Since however the sound card is the source & it has a limited number of bits to represent the signal clipping happens very early when boosting frequencies.

 The Xonar cards provide the highest EQ boost of any soundcard or equalizer for that matter. Most only provide 10-12db boost but the Xonar cards provide 20db boost. Even 10-12db boost in the digital domain can result in massive clipping of the DAC at any frequency. Boosting the EQ on the X-Fi based cards will do the same thing. I should know as I actually have both cards as well as the Xonar D2/PM. 

 I beg to differ on the bass of the X-Fi & the Xonar cards as the bass is better in every way on the Xonars & they have a deeper soundstage with less conjestion than any of the Creative X-Fi based cards I've tried & yes I've tried a few right up to the Elite Pro card. The Xonar D2/PM is better in every way & the StX is even better than the D2/PM.


----------



## Alexander01

Lol, I'm not a fanboy. I listened carefully to the X-Fi titanium and Xonar STX. The X-Fi Titanium just has a richer, smoother and more enjoyable laidback sound signature (even while it's less clear then the Xonar). Can't do anything about it ASUS screwed up some parts in the sound.

 I'm not the only one who says this:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oqvist* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Recently reinstalled my Elite Pro again after some time with my Essence ST.
 idea of this thread is to really bump the Elite Pro which seem to have gone forgotten.

 I must say the Elite Pro does really outclass the Essence and not by a small margin with my gear. I do have dedicated headphone amps so I am reviewing the line outs here. 

 The difference in soundstaging is tremendous. I exchanged the opamps on my essence to the 49720NA which certainly helped some in that area. But it´s not even close to the Elite Pro. It just present the music way better. I also appreciate there is less bass boost on the Elite Pro. Just about all my gear sound better balanced on it and it´s so much easier to portray the orchestras. 

 Now the Elite Pro don´t allow opamp switching. Is there any opamps that gives soundstaging to the Essence ST to rival the Elite Pro._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alecsus27* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yesterday i've got the asus xonar essence as i have sennheiser pc-350 headphones and i needed amp for them (150 ohms) - that xonar boasted a headphone amp.
 ok, the sound does come out louder, it doesnt mean it's of better quality. 
 im referring strictly to games. in gta 4 the sound on xonar sounds bad (like coming from a barrel) - as compared to x-fi titanium i had also.
 xonar essence boasts also dolby headphone - disappointment too, very little effect put into, but no sounds filling my head as i would expected.
 in dirt 2 the sound experience was so-so, lets say its good.

 i will have to stress out that only today im gonna test the xonar on music with decent signal (yesterday only listened to low quality signal music and i didnt like it either)

 i do hope i wont have to send xonar essence back, but if further testing will confirm my disappointment, i'll just return it and stick to my x-fi titanium.
 OR, return it and ask them to send me instead an x-fi titanium fatality pro ( though i hope i wont have windows 7 driver problems with that one, as i've heard it may happen)

 yes, i admit i am primarily a gamer, but i do listen to music (symphonic and rock) ocasionally._


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OICWUTUDIDTHAR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cough* fanboy alert *cough

 have fun with your x-fi crystalizer and cms-3d...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

agreed+++


----------



## Alexander01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looks like someone really does not understand the whole concept of digital equalization & how boosting any frquency can result in clipping of the DACs with very little boost. You are not boosting in the analog domain, you are boosting in the digital domain. If you have music that is already near clipping even boosting 2db can be enough to make it sound really bad as in aggressive. Same does happen in the analog domain to but typically this happens between the source & poweramp & as long as the power amp has sufficient headroom as in not turned up excessively you can boost the hell out of any frequency you want. Since however the sound card is the source & it has a limited number of bits to represent the signal clipping happens very early when boosting frequencies.

 The Xonar cards provide the highest EQ boost of any soundcard or equalizer for that matter. Most only provide 10-12db boost but the Xonar cards provide 20db boost. Even 10-12db boost in the digital domain can result in massive clipping of the DAC at any frequency. Boosting the EQ on the X-Fi based cards will do the same thing. I should know as I actually have both cards as well as the Xonar D2/PM. 

 I beg to differ on the bass of the X-Fi & the Xonar cards as the bass is better in every way on the Xonars & they have a deeper soundstage with less conjestion than any of the Creative X-Fi based cards I've tried & yes I've tried a few right up to the Elite Pro card. The Xonar D2/PM is better in every way & the StX is even better than the D2/PM._

 

I know digital equalisation would clip when reaching a certain level (but digital equalisation gives higher quality bass/treble then when boosting it analog). But there wasn't any clipping when I maxed the 16khz with +20db. The treble was clean. No disortion. But if you boost it you will hear the Xonar's treble signature just alot better. Meaning it becomes alot clearer but also more edgy/spikey (which is just a part of the Xonar's treble signature). With the airy softer X-Fi treble you don't have the spikes/edges when boosting it to the max.

 I need equalisation because MP3 without equalisation sounds like crap. Even when it's high quality 320Kbps CBR. MP3 is always muddy and lacks resolution in the lows and highs. So I NEED to make the upperbass tighter (62hz,125hz) and boost the lowest (31hz) and highest (16khz) frequencies to get a rich enjoyment.


 The X-Fi cards have fuller/more textured/better resolution bass that reaches lower. There really can be no discussion about that. Xonar has much tinnier bass.


----------



## leeperry

told you! you're just an incompetent fanboy


----------



## Alexander01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_told you! you're just an incompetent fanboy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Indeed. You were right. It seems only a few here have audiophile ears


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know digital equalisation would clip when reaching a certain level (but digital equalisation gives higher quality bass/treble then when boosting it analog). But there wasn't any clipping when I maxed the 16khz with +20db. The treble was clean. No disortion. But if you boost it you will hear the Xonar's treble signature just alot better. Meaning it becomes alot clearer but also more edgy/spikey (which is just a part of the Xonar's treble signature). With the airy softer X-Fi treble you don't have the spikes/edges when boosting it to the max.

 I need equalisation because MP3 without equalisation sounds like crap. Even when it's high quality 320Kbps CBR. MP3 is muddy and lacks resolution in the lows and highs. So I NEED to make the upperbass tighter (62mhz,125mhz) and boost the lowest (31hz) and highest (16khz) frequencies to get a rich enjoyment.


 The X-Fi cards have fuller/more textured/better resolution bass that reaches lower. There really can be no discussion about that. Xonar has much tinnier bass._

 

That spikey noise you are hearing is clipping & not part of the signal or soundcard signature. That is what clipping does & it will do it at any frequency & send the result to the tweeter & send it to an early death. That is even if you are clipping a bass frequency, the resulting clipping gets sent to the tweeter. This is how most speakers are in fact blown as the tweeter can only handle short term high power & clipping the signal changes the natural energy balance that the tweeter sees.

 Funny I don't have any issues with bad sound on high bit rate MP3s (320Kb/s). No EQ required here at all but I have become accustomed to flat EQ I guess.


----------



## Alexander01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That spikey noise you are hearing is clipping & not part of the signal or soundcard signature. That is what clipping does & it will do it at any frequency & send the result to the tweeter & send it to an early death. That is even if you are clipping a bass frequency, the resulting clipping gets sent to the tweeter. This is how most speakers are in fact blown as the tweeter can only handle short term high power & clipping the signal changes the natural energy balance that the tweeter sees.

 Funny I don't have any issues with bad sound on high bit rate MP3s (320Kb/s). No EQ required here at all but I have become accustomed to flat EQ I guess._

 

It isn't noise or crackling or whatever you want to call it. What I mean are sharp/aggressive edges in the highest frequenties. You can also hear this if you use a flat equalizer. There are many people here who had the card and complained about the agressive/spikey highs. I'm sure they didn't boosted their treble with +20db. It's just a part of the Xonar's treble signature and ofcourse you will notice this more if you are going to boost the treble.

 I also had experience in the past with clipping on some other software equalizers. To me it always resulted in disortion-noise when certain frequencies are hit. This was not the case with the Xonar's EQ when I boosted the 16khz with 20db.


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

No offense lee perry but for the short time I have been on here, you seem to be one if not the biggest tool on here.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed. You were right. It seems only a few here have audiophile ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

well, if you went to the Creative forum telling them that the X-Fi blabla-whateva is junk and that the STX is miles better...you would get the same sort of replies as you just did, we all enjoy what we bought w/ our own hard earned cash, it's all that matters.

 as someone's got in his signature "if it sounds good to you, then it's good"...let us know how the new X-Fi works out for you, the plastic EMI shield looks dumb to the utmost...but the metal one on the ST is only here to cook the components and keep the noobs happy hah 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OICWUTUDIDTHAR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No offense lee perry but for the short time I have been on here, you seem to be one if not the biggest tool on here._

 

coming from you, I have to admit that I'm flattered...so, thank you for that


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OICWUTUDIDTHAR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cough* fanboy alert *cough

 have fun with your x-fi crystalizer and cms-3d...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I bought the essence st after having my x-fi elite pro for almost 3 years, and I can definitely say that with my setup the audio difference was audible right away. The essence is warmer and more detailed sounding, I stopped getting listening fatigue with it.
 I still miss CMSS3D for headphones greatly though, I could pinpoint things around me with my eyes closed so easily.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed. You were right. It seems only a few here have audiophile ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Audiophiles can have vastly different opinions about the same gear. That does not make them any less an audiophile. What one may find edgy the other may find not lively enough. Though I will admit that I find the STX has the right stuff for me. Revealing of both the best & the worst in the recording & hiding nothing. I like my music lively because that is what I hear in real live concerts.


----------



## Alexander01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *forciano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought the essence st after having my x-fi elite pro for almost 3 years, and I can definitely say that with my setup the audio difference was audible right away. The essence is warmer and more detailed sounding, I stopped getting listening fatigue with it.
 I still miss CMSS3D for headphones greatly though, I could pinpoint things around me with my eyes closed so easily._

 

I don't really get it how you can say the Essence is warmer then an X-Fi based card. X-Fi cards were always on the warm side to me. I found the STX to be very neutral and maybe a bit cold.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audiophiles can have vastly different opinions about the same gear. That does not make them any less an audiophile. What one may find edgy the other may find not lively enough. Though I will admit that I find the STX has the right stuff for me. Revealing of both the best & the worst in the recording & hiding nothing. I like my music lively because that is what I hear in real live concerts._

 

For me, over-detailing without a smooth signature isn't comfortable to listen to. My brains cannot handle and seperate al the details coming in very loud. It doesn't give me any pleasure.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't really get it how you can say the Essence is warmer then an X-Fi based card. X-Fi cards were always on the warm side to me. I found the STX to be very neutral and maybe a bit cold.




 For me, over-detailing without a smooth signature isn't comfortable to listen to. My brains cannot handle and seperate al the details coming in very loud. It doesn't give me any pleasure._

 

I can, look at the gear I have listed on my signature. And then add to that the fact that I different sonic tastes.

 I also found out you adapt to the extra detail you hear, and music detail IMO has nothing to do with harsh sound.


----------



## Alexander01

The details of the STX are just coming out too loud and agressive for me. X-Fi Titanium also has alot detail (and crispness) in the sound but because of it's smooth and laidback signature and very good positional audio (that is also crucial for games) it's very comfortable to listen to. The technical audio aspects (soundstage, postional audio, instrument seperation, frequency response) are just a tad better with the X-Fi chipset. I value these aspects above the clearness of the Xonar STX.


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like my music lively because that is what I hear in real live concerts._

 

The sort of loud live concerts that impair higher frequency hearing? Maybe that's part of the reason you prefer a lively home stereo?

 I can't comment on the ST as Asus didn't get their act together and get decent distribution here in the Netherlands, especially for the daughter card they promised. What I can say is that I've been searching for *detailed but non-fatiguing* sound for years and following Lee Perry's example I had my Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 upgraded by Jesse of Gooi PC's with the following:

 12x Panasonic FM 1000uf 16V
 8x Wima FKP2 1nf
 9x Vishay MKP1839 1uf
 6x Sanyo OSCON SH 6.8uf 16V
 1x 7912ACV (voltage regulator)
 1x 7812ACV
 2x LME49720HA opamps
 1x Audio GD Earth opamp

 and it sounds fantastic! Velvety is the only adjective I can think of to describe it. Admittedly I had already upgraded to a smooth Marantz PM 17 amplifier, but the unmodded HD2 still sounded very harsh on it.


----------



## krisno

Alexander: A scary description of the asus xonar you are giving.... what headphones do you use?

 I too am a bit confused if the card is smooth or harsh, dark or bright. everyone just get a Xonar DS and keep the change.

 Overly detailed is tiredsome... the x-dac v3 had 132db noise floor, it ruined just every recording on headphones.


----------



## Alexander01

Pioneer SE-A40. Its a very cheap and old headphone that I'm using for years now. I tryed some other headphones but I couldn't stick with them. But I'm still planning to upgrade the headphone when I have found a high-end soundcard that has the sound signature that I want.


----------



## krisno

Because of all this trashing of the essence st - and no other good alternative as creative have the most bloated drivers in the world - I will cancel the ST and go for the Asus Xonar D1 instead. It seems to be tremendous value... I just dont want this fatigue problem, I have had it long enough with the AKG K 701s.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because of all this trashing of the essence st - and no other good alternative as creative have the most bloated drivers in the world - I will cancel the ST and go for the Asus Xonar D1 instead. It seems to be tremendous value... I just dont want this fatigue problem, I have had it long enough with the AKG K 701s._

 

Anouther possibly satisfied future owner bites the dust thanks to our resident shill.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anouther possibly satisfied future owner bites the dust thanks to our resident shill._

 

I think people sometimes have to be careful with their statements (including me) when it comes to describing why they don't like certain sound signatures on some products, there's many things to consider.

 I personally was on the same boat, when trying to upgrade from my old x-fi elite card, and realized that the only way I could get a definitive answer to whether or not I would like the ST, was if I heard the card myself...


----------



## OICWUTUDIDTHAR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because of all this trashing of the essence st - and no other good alternative as creative have the most bloated drivers in the world - I will cancel the ST and go for the Asus Xonar D1 instead. It seems to be tremendous value... I just dont want this fatigue problem, I have had it long enough with the AKG K 701s._

 

....sad

 Im going to right this in caps so it gets read.

 YOU DO REALIZE 99% OF THE PEOPLE ON HERE HAVE NEVER HEARD/OWNED/LISTENED TO THE PRODUCTS THEY COMMENT ABOUT ON HERE. MOST ARE FANS BOYS AND BASH A PRODUCT BECAUSE IT IS BETTER THEN THERE OWN.

 / end rant


----------



## krisno

Forciano - how does your xonar essence ST sound with tubes? Are you happy with it - or fatigue?

 i have been involved with 'hyper detail' through the x-dac v3, so maybe essence is the same.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Forciano - how does your xonar essence ST sound with tubes? Are you happy with it - or fatigue?

 i have been involved with 'hyper detail' through the x-dac v3, so maybe essence is the same._

 

The Essense is highly detailed but has a warmth to the sound that the Elite Pro misses. Both are very detailed at least on the surface but the Essense that datail goes deeper & gives better seperation of the instruments & is easier to pick out different parts of a harmony or background instruments all the while catching a better sense of the body of the instrument or voice than the elite pro ever thought of.

 While I haven't heard it with tubes its sound character should go very well with tubes as it plays to thier strengths. Yes I do have experience with tubes, just not with this card.


----------



## krisno

... well I am not sure now. I could reorder it again - but I guess the Xonar D1 is just extremly value even though I only use stereo. You get all the same hardware dsp. But the headphone amp part is lousy. reviews are not able to descern D1 and D2. Essence probably more detailed than D2, but cant be that much better quality....

 I think it will be 'ok'. The D1 uses Texas Instruments R4850 on the stereo/heaphone out and NJM5532 on the rest.

 Anyone heard the R4850? 

 I dont understand how the essence can be fatiguing if it is so smooth and warm? Is it the details which make it fatigue on headphones?? hyperdetail?

 k


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont understand how the essence can be fatiguing if it is so smooth and warm?_

 

because we all hear differently? order it from a shop w/ a return policy, and if you don't like it...send it back(but don't mention it here, you'd get insulted for your non-skills). life's so simple sometimes.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... well I am not sure now. I could reorder it again - but I guess the Xonar D1 is just extremly value even though I only use stereo. You get all the same hardware dsp. But the headphone amp part is lousy. reviews are not able to descern D1 and D2. Essence probably more detailed than D2, but cant be that much better quality....

 I think it will be 'ok'. The D1 uses Texas Instruments R4850 on the stereo/heaphone out and NJM5532 on the rest.

 Anyone heard the R4850? 

 I dont understand how the essence can be fatiguing if it is so smooth and warm? Is it the details which make it fatigue on headphones?? hyperdetail?

 k_

 

Yes, the 4580 and 5532 are very common, generic audio opamps and have been used in quite a few soundcards and a great deal of consumer audio equipment.


----------



## krisno

But has anyone heard the D1/D2 vs ST / STX. 

 But I dont doubt this fatigue problem - but it has to do with the lower noise floor. X-DAC v3 the same. On headphones - fatiguing - on speakers not so much the problem.


----------



## ROBSCIX

IIRC, The D1 is the PCI version of the DX. 

 The DX was basically the entry level of the Xonar line up but they recently released the DS which took over that spot.


----------



## krisno

the DS is not same league as D1 I think...

 The D1 with replaceable opamp would be great(but it does not have it). though it is very very cheap.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But has anyone heard the D1/D2 vs ST / STX. 

 But I dont doubt this fatigue problem - but it has to do with the lower noise floor. X-DAC v3 the same. On headphones - fatiguing - on speakers not so much the problem._

 

You shoudnt generalize when you say it happens on all headphones, thats assuming to much IMO.

 And for your previous question with my tube amp, I can say sometimes I'm extremely satisfied with it depending what music im hearing and how well its recorded. I have a great detail and soundstage, but that also probably has to do with my headphones. 

 I had my old x-fi plugged in to this amp, and I had listening fatigue with compared to the essence which makes my ears happy with long music listening sessions.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the DS is not same league as D1 I think...

 The D1 with replaceable opamp would be great(but it does not have it). though it is very very cheap._

 

I never said it was. I said the DX/D1 were previously the entry level into the Xonar lineup both being the cheapest cards ASUS offered. The DS has since took over that spot being a bit cheaper then the DX/D1
 To note:
 The D1 is the PCI version on the DX so both cards are worth about $80.
 The D2/D2X are higher end cards and worth $180 IIRC.
 The DX/D1 are good cards for the price but they don't compete with the higher end cards.
 If that is a feature your after the DS has a replacable opamp for the front lineout.


----------



## gurubhai

I have both the D2X and STX. The D2X is an excellent sound card in its own right but the STX is definitely a class above.
 There are plenty of other comparisons from different people in the STX thread & they voiced similar opinion.
 @krisno : you can't just read a couple of opinions & make your mind that you are not gonna like it. Go through the various STX/ST threads. There are lots of excellent reviews from many experienced head-fiers who have compared them to most current sound cards.
 Some of those people are not active on these threads currently but you will give your self a better chance of finding the right card for you if you make the effort to learn from their experience.


----------



## krisno

Well - it isnt exactly sad for my wallet to go for the D1 instead.

 I have had alot of audio equipment - and nowhere is the hype greater than in head-fi. I even had the Burson HA-100 amp, fully discrete all the way. Yes, it was nice and very smooth - non fatiguing - but it was not intensly better than even cheaper stuff.

 Its just that the musical fidelity X-DAC V3 experience on headphones was not a good one. It was 'harsh' , extremly detailed and really somewhat fatiguing. On speakers not the same problem.... the Xonar uses the dac same chip btw.

 But as I am a AKG K 701 user I agree - a amp might be important. But I have allready this modded X-can V2 (max mod) tube headphone amp.... so I could use that if I want (though more cables)...

 I am very unsure and more than just this pessimistic guy is saying the ST is fatiguing .. hehe - very expesnive though.

 The D1 is simpler, and probably just an incredible value..

 K


----------



## krisno

Just fixed my profile a bit... Xonar D1 it is then - if nobody has any problem with it.


----------



## forciano

So I just got my new opamps (Thanks Robscix!), 2x LME49720HA and 1x dual LME49710HA. After some quick listening I can tell right away that the soundstage has been increased significantly, but of more theres many hours of music listening ahead of me before I can get a grasp of the whole sound signature.


----------



## krisno

This forum is VERY dangerous. Noone is able to keep their stuff for more than 2 weeks. Use it and enjoy the music. hehe...


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This forum is VERY dangerous. Noone is able to keep their stuff for more than 2 weeks. Use it and enjoy the music. hehe..._

 

I've had my current setup now for at least 6 months. Very happy with it too I might add. Does everything I currently need it to do.


----------



## krisno

Germanium - do you play games with your essence STX also? Or just music? Games have lower bit sounds - how does it sound on the higly detailed ST?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This forum is VERY dangerous. Noone is able to keep their stuff for more than 2 weeks. Use it and enjoy the music_

 

...while you still can, hah..so true!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *forciano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I just got my new opamps (Thanks Robscix!), 2x LME49720HA and 1x dual LME49710HA. After some quick listening I can tell right away that the soundstage has been increased significantly, but of more theres many hours of music listening ahead of me before I can get a grasp of the whole sound signature._

 

Enjoy


----------



## krisno

leeperry - may I ask, did you find the ST fatiguing also with stock opamps - or mostly with those ultraclear other ones?

 - have you tried discrete opamps on the Essence card?

 The Prodigy HD2 Advance is interesting, nice hardware, but VIA makes crappy drivers so it is not a choice for me.

 K


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_leeperry - may I ask, did you find the ST fatiguing also with stock opamps - or mostly with those ultraclear other ones?

 - have you tried discrete opamps on the Essence card?

 The Prodigy HD2 Advance is interesting, nice hardware, but VIA makes crappy drivers so it is not a choice for me.

 K_

 

VIA crappy drivers? hahaha, wait until you meat(pun intended) the C-Media Asus resampling crapola 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the Envy24 drivers were made by ICEnsemble, VIA simply bought them and rebadged the chip w/ their name...but the drivers forbid resampling, don't need any resident app and are dead stable.

 there just was something really really wrong w/ the jitter on this card and my brain(I did RMA it and the new one was doing the exact same thing)...it didn't work out at all, whatever op-amps I would use 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 we all hear differently anyway, so try it for a few days...but be aware that the drivers carry a fixed sample rate in their GUI, don't do any sort of bitmatched playback whatsoever(even ASIO and KS are resampled) and were not too stable IME...I would only advise an Asus soundcard to my worst enemy tbh.


----------



## krisno

My most intense experience ever with the AKG K 701 was with the Lehmann clone "Yulong Dah1", using a OPA 2134 at pre-stage and discrete very powerful output stage. Running this amp with a Valab NOS dac as source - it is the most alive, smooth and KILLER experience I have ever had with the AKGs. Stereoimage was a bit small, but that was it.

 I have never been able to replicate that sound btw. The essence is expensive, will see how this D1 works out, with and without tube amp and directly into the card. I guess it will be better than most things, tough little less bass and little less details than Essence.

 K


----------



## Alexander01

If you want intense sound the X-Fi Titanium is a good choice. Full textured bass that goes low, deep stage, clean and crisp warm sound. A good upgrade from the X-Fi XtremeGamer and the X-Fi Prelude that I owned previously.


----------



## krisno

X-Fi is just not a go really regarding those incredible driver bloat/issues. If there was EAX support in Vista/win 7 - the choice would have been easy. Vista audio stack effectively killed Creatives 20 years domination in soundcard market.

 I still remember when I got the 8bit Soundblaster Pro II - running in a ISA port - it was the king of the days. Incredible sound and quality - and it stayed that way until the Sb Live which was a disaster. Then they got their last nail with the new audio stack(which is better for everyone).


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_X-Fi is just not a go really regarding those incredible driver bloat/issues. If there was EAX support in Vista/win 7 - the choice would have been easy. Vista audio stack effectively killed Creatives 20 years domination in soundcard market.

 I still remember when I got the 8bit Soundblaster Pro II - running in a ISA port - it was the king of the days. Incredible sound and quality - and it stayed that way until the Sb Live which was a disaster. Then they got their last nail with the new audio stack(which is better for everyone)._

 

You do realize there is EAX support in vista and win 7 right?


----------



## leeperry

X-Fi still have an edge in game...reads the xbitlabs review I linked earlier.


----------



## Mphile

I cant comment on the D1 + K701, but ive used the D1 with the K601 and it sounded tinny, harsh and had zero bass. Definitely needed amplification. If youve got external amplification, then it should be ok i guess, otherwise it should definitely be the ST IMO


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mphile* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cant comment on the D1 + K701, but ive used the D1 with the K601 and it sounded tinny, harsh and had zero bass. Definitely needed amplification. If youve got external amplification, then it should be ok i guess, otherwise it should definitely be the ST IMO_

 

I found the DX/D1 decent enough for the price. It is an entry level card and worth about $80 so you can really only expect so much from these cards. As you said though, your cans play a very large roll in the signature you hear, some people seem to forget that.


----------



## krisno

But I really dont want a soundcard that is so detailed that PC games are unbearable. That is what i am worrying about - also this intense fatigue som people talk about. 

 The D1 according to reviews are as good as D2 really - just without all the bliss; and it is better than most creative offerings.


----------



## krisno

Christ sake - it cannot be worse than analog out(motherboard) on my laptop or workstation?? the D1 i mean. Specially not as D2 wipes the floor, and D1 is the D2 but abit scaled back.


----------



## leeperry

I'd call some games mono'ish on the STX...didn't bother trying on the ST 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Two in One: Asus Xonar Essence STX Sound Card Review (page 6) - X-bit labs
  Quote:


 If Dolby Headphone is not enabled, the Xonar Essence STX gives you no sense of direction towards the sound at all. 
 

Q4 runs OpenAL btw, and my experience in Q3 was identical...ppl don't buy these cards to play games essentially..and some ppl don't like DH either.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Christ sake - it cannot be worse than analog out(motherboard) on my laptop or workstation?? the D1 i mean. Specially not as D2 wipes the floor, and D1 is the D2 but abit scaled back._

 

I said it was decent for the price. You should like it just fine if you have been using onboards etc..
 No, the D1 is NOT a scaled back D2 it is a PCI verison of the DX.

 As for your comment on detail, a card cannot add more detail then what is there just some guys are so used to veiled, muddy washed out cards that when they hear a source that allows the detail to come through it is hard to handle until they get used to it. 
 If your looking for a card for games have the X-fi cards not entered your mind for a possible card?


----------



## krisno

I hate creative drivers so never... and remember, vista audio stack dont support EAX without that alchemy person software. Half life games uses their own software DSP in-engine and soforth. OpenAL is supported on Asus. onboard supports neither...

 Auzentech cards are great - but as all is damn X-FI I dont want them anymore. I want small drivers and ASUS got it.

 The D1 vs D2 in many reviews people say is neglible. The D1 is one hell of a package - meaning value. 

 the ST is very tempting, specially with the AKG K 701s. But I am not sure if I want ot use thise tube amp or not. Tubes are nice in many occations - bring some magic. But trust me - even good tube amps have LESS bass than analog out of my laptop 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and it is no joke...

 But i agree - its difficult.... Xonar st ? or d1?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hate creative drivers so never... and remember, vista audio stack dont support EAX without that alchemy person software. Half life games uses their own software DSP in-engine and soforth. OpenAL is supported on Asus. onboard supports neither..._

 

The Vista audio stack can support EAX just fine. what Vista does not support is Direct Sound HAL. Which is an API that can run the EAX effect set and was used in XP and earlier OS's. 
 However, EAX can still be run just fine using the OpenAL API which is still fully hardware acclerated in Vista..etc as that is why older games need the ALchemy wrapper as it converts Directsound calls to OpenAL calls. The EAX effects still remain the same in the game. OpenAL is still in development and fully hadrware accelerated if you have the right hardware. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Auzentech cards are great - but as all is damn X-FI I dont want them anymore. I want small drivers and ASUS got it._

 

Yes, they are the champs for hardware effect gaming right now.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The D1 vs D2 in many reviews people say is neglible. The D1 is one hell of a package - meaning value._

 

Sure, if the card has the features you want then it is a good card for you.
 However, if your thinking a $80 D1 will sound like a $200 D2, you might be dissapointed.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the ST is very tempting, specially with the AKG K 701s. But I am not sure if I want ot use thise tube amp or not. Tubes are nice in many occations - bring some magic. But trust me - even good tube amps have LESS bass than analog out of my laptop 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and it is no joke...

 But i agree - its difficult.... Xonar st ? or d1?_

 

Buy the one that has the features and price point you want. I like the DX/D1 and have recommended them to many people that have a set budget they are a great sounding card for the price. Good luck with your purchase!


----------



## krisno

ROBSCIX - they have the same chipset as Elite Pro.

 I am not that much on a budget. I play games like Left for Dead 2. the sound effects are not in 320kbit. Some ripped movies are like 128bit. With the Essence + the see through AKG K 701 - I am a bit afraid that this will destroy joy with most stuff except the best ripped FLAC music.

 I think the D1 will suffice. I have tried alot of stuff and the highend things always disappoint me. The Bursan HA100(check it out) headphone amp was sweet enough, but just a monster on the desk. it also was a little 'quiet' but exceptional wide soundstage. The widest soundstage I have ever heard - in my life. 

 Still the analog output of a MAC laptop suprise me everytime. How does it do it? Every song just sound so lush and nice. Even coupled on speakers, playing a XVID - it sounds good. haha - its just incredible.


----------



## freestyler

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd call some games mono'ish on the STX...didn't bother trying on the ST 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Two in One: Asus Xonar Essence STX Sound Card Review (page 6) - X-bit labs

 Q4 runs OpenAL btw, and my experience in Q3 was identical...ppl don't buy these cards to play games essentially..and some ppl don't like DH either._

 

I'll have to agree on that point. I have the d1 currently and i expect the ST to arrive any day now. 
 I play lots of Cod 4 and it's just very hard to distinguish where the footsteps are coming from.
 Also i can't know if someone is coming from behind me exactly. It sounds the same as if he is coming from the front. Getting knifed by noobs from behind just cause you didn't think someone was there, is not funny.

 Someone would expect that getting a separate sound card would you give an advantage on online fps's but this doesn't seem to be the case.

 Dolby headphone mode i'd say it's kind of a joke. Sure you get better positional but the sound is completely altered. Gun fires does not sound the same anymore. 
 The whole thing sounds un-natural.

 It was better with my old creative audigy ls and i don't expect this situation to change with the ST.

 But for music and movies (also very good at games, just not when you critically need directional audio for FPS's) it's really amazing *krisno*. All my hard believer friends agree with that after the upgraded from their onboard piece of s**t.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ROBSCIX - they have the same chipset as Elite Pro._

 

 Can you elaborate a bit more? What has the same chipset as the Elite Pro?


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am not that much on a budget. I play games like Left for Dead 2. the sound effects are not in 320kbit. Some ripped movies are like 128bit. With the Essence + the see through AKG K 701 - I am a bit afraid that this will destroy joy with most stuff except the best ripped FLAC music._

 

Why not upgrade the source material instead of going for a sub-optimal soundcard to mask bad sources? I'd use some budget to buy a larger hard drive that will store FLACs and movies with >750 kbit/s DTS soundtracks. You know it makes sense


----------



## krisno

phusg ..

 I agree - its just that games do not come with high quality sound.

 Rosix:
 I meant - D1 uses the same DAC as Elite Pro... but i dont know about opamp. Its a pity the D1 wont let you change opamps. It would be great.

 I dont care for EAX... i thought A3D was good back in the days. too bad they failed before launching Vortex 3 soundcard. That technology actually found its way into the Xbox via nvidia. Aureal was a great company.... But A3d, EAX etc changes the sound also, muffles it a little. So I play in plain stereo...

 I am not sure if i should use the tube amp - it increase amount of external cables.... but if using the tube amp: D1 vs ST is less of a difference i guess.... amping directly from the card it will be bigger difference? 

 K


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Germanium - do you play games with your essence STX also? Or just music? Games have lower bit sounds - how does it sound on the higly detailed ST?_

 

No games here. Only high bitrate music. 320Kb/s or more. Mostly lossless & 24 bit 96KHz & even higher though by that point there really isn't much difference in sound quality. I have some 24 bit 192KHz stuff I recorded off of my SACD player as the SACDs will not play on the computer itself.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Robsix:
 I meant - D1 uses the same DAC as Elite Pro... but i dont know about opamp. Its a pity the D1 wont let you change opamps. It would be great._

 

Yes I have the card here and it will probably measure better also. 
 The DAC this card uses is also available on some high end external DAC's but which do you think will sound better?
 There is more to it then just the DAC choice, such as filter, power,PCB, layout..etc. The price of the card reflects what components have been used. 
 Anyway, go buy the card already if thats the one you want.


----------



## krisno

What lures me into the D1 is overclockersclub.com review where they say two things. His X-FI is using the same opamp(mod) as on the lineout on the xonar ST.:

 *Xonar D1 sounds almost as good as the modded X-FI ExtremeMusic. 
 *He said it gives a 'warm' and 'wooden' sound
 *When reading his Essence STX review, he comments that as his extrememusic vs STX on line out is not any noticable difference between the two. He is using AKG K701s.

 Therefor I conclude - the Xonar D1 sounds not far away from the Essence when using a amp... and if I could have upgraded the opamp on the D1 it would be very close.

 I argue that Essence ST is no brainer if not using external amp. I am not sure if I am going to use tube amp. But amplification with headphones is somewhat overrated. it really is not that much difference than normal jack out on laptop. And I must say, the jackout on my laptop has better bass than my modded X-can v2. Tubes really soften the bass...

 The positive about D1 is lower noise floor, so more low quality music and in-game sound will sound more comfortable on it......

 Kris


----------



## ROBSCIX

Enjoy.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What lures me into the D1 is overclockersclub.com review where they say two things. His X-FI is using the same opamp(mod) as on the lineout on the xonar ST.:

 *Xonar D1 sounds almost as good as the modded X-FI ExtremeMusic. 
 *He said it gives a 'warm' and 'wooden' sound
 *When reading his Essence STX review, he comments that as his extrememusic vs STX on line out is not any noticable difference between the two. He is using AKG K701s.

 Therefor I conclude - the Xonar D1 sounds not far away from the Essence when using a amp... and if I could have upgraded the opamp on the D1 it would be very close.

 I argue that Essence ST is no brainer if not using external amp. I am not sure if I am going to use tube amp. But amplification with headphones is somewhat overrated. it really is not that much difference than normal jack out on laptop. And I must say, the jackout on my laptop has better bass than my modded X-can v2. Tubes really soften the bass...

 The positive about D1 is lower noise floor, so more low quality music and in-game sound will sound more comfortable on it......

 Kris_

 

Tubes are not always soft on the bass though many are.This is mostly due to using cheap output transfomers that saturate early. Try hooking a tranny amp to electrostat speakers & listening for a while then hook a quality tube amp up to them & you will discover deep solid bass that you never heard on the tranny amp on the same speakers. This is due in large part to the impedance curve of electrostats. The impedance rises at low frequencies & therefore become harder to drive from a sensitivity perspective. The tube amp has a higher output impedance especially if it uses no corrective feed back. as a consequence the 0 feedback tube amp will actually deliver near flat power into the electrostat load where the tranny amp will deliver rising power into the high frequencies making the bass sound weak & the treble sound shrill on full range electrostats.

 For the same reason tubes will deliver flatter response from many of the ported designs in the bass as with some ported designs there is outragious impedance swings near the port tuning & since 0 feedback tubes tend to deliver flat power instead of flat voltage the loss of sensitivity caused by the impedane peaks on either side of the port tuning will receive more power from the tube amp possibly extending the response anouther half octave. It is this very last property where a medium power tube amp blow the woofer of the ported speaker as the excursion of the woofer just below the port tuning is at its greatest & can cause bottoming of the driver. Lord forbid that you should do this with even a moderately high power tube amp with 0 feedback, you could blow the woofer right out of the box or cause it to rip apart due to bottoming. It would take roughly 4-8 times more powerfull tranny amp to accomplish the same feat depending on the peak of the impedance at that frequency.

 On acoustic suspention this high output impedance can either work for you or against you. With alignments that have a Q of greater than .7 you could end up with bloated bass. With a Q of .5 or less the speaker will sound more extended on the tube amp but still tight sounding than with a tranny amp. Note that the bass is not actually more extended in this last case but will deliver flatter response up to the cut off of the speakers frequency response.

 This is good reading on this topic. 

http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/myth.html


----------



## h4sy0u

Hello. I have a question for you. Have you tried Essence ST with high sensitive IEMs ? For example: se530, klipsch s4 or she9850? Because on my system paired with low impedance and sensitive iems i hear background noise very noticeably. And this has nothing to do with music. It's there even when no music plays. Strange, because for example on DS+OPA2134 there is nothing in background.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h4sy0u* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello. I have a question for you. Have you tried Essence ST with high sensitive IEMs ? For example: se530, klipsch s4 or she9850? Because on my system paired with low impedance and sensitive iems i hear background noise very noticeably. And this has nothing to do with music. It's there even when no music plays. Strange, because for example on DS+OPA2134 there is nothing in background. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Assuming no ground loops the output of the Essense STX is extremely quiet even with high sensitivity IEMs. If there is any ground loops though you will hear it. My system has no ground loops & is dead silent with any headphones, IEMs or speakers.The ST has exactly the same output section as the STX.


----------



## h4sy0u

You know some solution to avoid ground loops ?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h4sy0u* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You know some solution to avoid ground loops ?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ground Loop Isolator - RadioShack.com

 Insert this to any line-out or line-in wire to the computer from any other grounded componant as this will break the ground loop.


----------



## h4sy0u

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ground Loop Isolator - RadioShack.com

 Insert this to any line-out or line-in wire to the computer from any other grounded componant as this will break the ground loop._

 

Hmm... it seems that this is not a solution for me, because there i don't hear any humm/buzz but very slight background noise like - sssssssssssssssssss...
 Like from some low quality sound card with 80dB SNR you know what i mean.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h4sy0u* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm... it seems that this is not a solution for me, because there i don't hear any humm/buzz but very slight background noise like - sssssssssssssssssss...
 Like from some low quality sound card with 80dB SNR you know what i mean._

 

If you are running windows seven or vista make sure you have the the driver setup for 24 bit audio. To do this right click on the speaker icon by the clock in the notification area & go to playback devices, click on speakers then on properties. Go to the advanced tab & select 24 bit 44.1KHz (studio qualty).

 The noise that you are hearing is likely due to this being set for 16 bit resolution in which case dither is likely added to linearize the output. This noise is only about 84db down compared to 117 db down that the headphone amp is capable of.


----------



## h4sy0u

I have both drivers and vista set to 192khz 24bit... slight noise is still there


----------



## ROBSCIX

Make sure your inputs are muted and the mic boost is off. You may be hearing a floating input.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h4sy0u* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have both drivers and vista set to 192khz 24bit... slight noise is still there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have some IEMs that are 115db/1milliwatt & no noise here. The SE530 are about 4 db more efficient than these. I take that back there is an extremely faint hiss that can only be heard if I switch outputs back & forth to & from the headphone amp This almost overpowered by my own body noises. The SE530's have about 3x the impedance of the superfi 3 studios so the sensitivity to noise should actually be about the same except the SE530 would likely have better high frequency response.


----------



## h4sy0u

I do not know how it can be described as a card with the cleanest signal when there is Xonar DS which is 4x cheaper and absolutely clean on background (no audible noise). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and sonically (with OPA2134) almost on par with Essence.


----------



## krisno

What DAC is in the DS? and what is default opamp btw?


----------



## h4sy0u

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What DAC is in the DS? and what is default opamp btw?_

 

WM8776 + JRC5532D


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h4sy0u* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not know how it can be described as a card with the cleanest signal when there is Xonar DS which is 4x cheaper and absolutely clean on background (no audible noise). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and sonically (with OPA2134) almost on par with Essence._

 

It can be called "card with the cleanest signal" because your experience of the card is not consistent with the majority of users. I have owned a Xonar D2, D2X, Essence STX and now the ST. The soundquality has improved dramatically with each upgrade. I have use shure se420s on mine with no hiss apparent.

 If I am incapable of quick laps in an F1 car and doesn't mean the car isn't quick.

 I hope you have got it sorted.

 MAcrog


----------



## krisno

macrog: you still use the essence st?


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_macrog: you still use the essence st?_

 

Yes I still use the essence ST occasionally mainly with 24bit192khz files. My Audio-gd reference 1 only does 96khz. I have thought a few times about upgrading the STX in my second machine and putting the stx in the oldest machine.

 I still think the ST is the best internal soundcard I have ever heard by a long way.

 The Hiface has ended my ongoing search for a better digital source to feed my external dac. I will get Jkenny to udgrade for me as his upgrade seems like great value.


 Macrog


----------



## fine art acoustic

Hi macrog,
 i read that you have the Audio-GD Reference one DAC. Can you be so kind and tell me how the DAC compares to the analog output of the essence ST. 
 Because i'am interested on to buy aswell this DAC together with the preamp C-3MK3.

 Thanks in advance


----------



## sokolov91

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those experiencing noise both hum-buzz & computer noise may want to check for gound loops as ground loops could be the problem. I had this to a very small degree & noticed a slight increase in hum & computer noise but only if my preamp was up near full output (3/4 volume or more).I spent a couple hours ridding my system of it & found it was a ground loop formed between my powered speakers, preamp, computer through the power cables of the computer & speaker & passing through the interconnects between those componants. 

 I lifted the ground of the speakers & that broke the ground loop & now I have complete total silence with no signal even with the volume turned all the way up on the preamp (more than 20db gain). This no matter what my computer is doing. All componants now grounded through the computer power cord. Music still plays excellant if not even better than before. Bear in mind I was running my checks at extremely high gain. Probably as high if not higher than most power amps have so the noise was pretty low to start with but I wanted I complete silence even at full gain._

 

It was reading this post that I finally fixed my problem. I found a cheap power cable to be used on the LD MKV, removed the grounding pin, and plugged it in to the wall. Voila, no more of that horrendous noise!

 Thank you for your help germanium


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sokolov91* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was reading this post that I finally fixed my problem. I found a cheap power cable to be used on the LD MKV, removed the grounding pin, and plugged it in to the wall. Voila, no more of that horrendous noise!

 Thank you for your help germanium
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That fix does work though it is not really recommended. Ground loop isolators are the recommended route but they use 1:1 transformers inside & depending on the quality of the transformer it may reduce sound quality. 

 Some equipment has a ground lift switch that allows one to lift the ground for the amp without affecting the chassis ground. If equipment has that that is also recommended. 

 The reason my earlier suggestion, which really wasn't a suggestion but was an experiment to find the issue, is not the recommended way is that if you unplug the signal cable the whole amp is then ungrounded & a potential shock hazard. As long as nothing is wrong with the signal cable & you leave it pluged in there shouldn't really be any shock hazard though. I do admit though I have so far left mine that way, but then again I do know the hazards & how to avoid them. Someone else may not know the hazards & end up getting a nasty reminder courtesy 120 volts A.C., especially if they unplug the signal cable.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That fix does work though it is not really recommended. Ground loop isolators are the recommended route but they use 1:1 transformers inside & depending on the quality of the transformer it may reduce sound quality. 

 Some equipment has a ground lift switch that allows one to lift the ground for the amp without affecting the chassis ground. If equipment has that that is also recommended. 

 The reason my earlier suggestion, which really wasn't a suggestion but was an experiment to find the issue, is not the recommended way is that if you unplug the signal cable the whole amp is then ungrounded & a potential shock hazard. As long as nothing is wrong with the signal cable & you leave it pluged in there shouldn't really be any shock hazard though. I do admit though I have so far left mine that way, but then again I do know the hazards & how to avoid them. Someone else may not know the hazards & end up getting a nasty reminder courtesy 120 volts A.C., especially if they unplug the signal cable._

 

Thanks for you detailed follow up. Real great and appreciated by us ignorants.

 My experiment was out of desperation really. I tried to see if the Psaudio quintet would somehow fix the issue. It didn't. Then I read your post seeing that not both were grounded, and I had a loop with both grounded. So the pseudo science was a loop must mean one or more. Then I noticed I had a crappy Radioshack power cable. I took out the pin with my bare hands, a testament to how crappy it was, and it worked. I figured it was not at all the best thing.

 I would like to avoid the isolator for monetary and performance reasons. Thanks for the heads up on removing the signal cable. If it is safe as long as I am not next to a pool and playing with the signal cables whilst on, I think I will leave it, and look into opamps!!


----------



## ROBSCIX

You have a bad ground loop in your audio system. You can try to put all power cables on the same circuit but your way fixes it also but is not recommended for obvious reasons. Oh well, Enjoy.


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi macrog,
 i read that you have the Audio-GD Reference one DAC. Can you be so kind and tell me how the DAC compares to the analog output of the essence ST. 
 Because i'am interested on to buy aswell this DAC together with the preamp C-3MK3.

 Thanks in advance_

 

The Audio-gd reference 1 is superb and in a different league to the analog outputs of the ST. The biggest improvements are detail (everywhere), imaging, Bass depth and detail and emotional communication. I find the Ref1 totally uncoloured and it is wonderful with my Phoenix headphone amp. I am also intending to get a C3Mk3 soon. Please let me know what you think of it. What power amp are you using? I am intending 2 pairs of C1-Masters or else 2 C1s.

 I have never heard a better DAC than the Audio-gd. I have compared it to the Naim DAC with XPS psu (7 times the price), Wadia 781 (over 10 times the price), Cambridge 840c (similar price). The Reference 1 is one of the best value things I have ever bought in audio. The coaxial digital output from the ST is great but a Hiface usb to coaxial/bnc converter is even better.

 Regards Macrog


----------



## fine art acoustic

I use self crafted power amps 2 x 4 channel 400W self crafted by using Hypex UCD 400HG with HxR12. 
 For the C3Mk3 this will be my first buy, but i have to wait until i have the money together.
 By the end of March i think i can order the pre amp. As soon i have my first listening impression i will wright it. 
 But if you have the pre first please let me know your impressions. 

 Thanks for your responce
 Best Regards


----------



## krisno

fine art acoustic:

 How do you find your Xona rEssence ? Do you use it alot ? How is it with the Earth and sun discreete opamps? Care to elaborate a little? thanks!


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_fine art acoustic:

 How do you find your Xona rEssence ? Do you use it alot ? How is it with the Earth and sun discreete opamps? Care to elaborate a little? thanks!_

 

That's the best soundcard i ever had. 
 The Earth in I/V spot is realy nice. Suggestet by ROBSCiX he is a great guy. Sometimes i change in the buffer between Moon (tubelike and warm) and the sun (ultra high resulotion without stepping on nervs) i enyoy every of them.
 I hear only over my HTPC as preamp (esscense st) to my selfcraftet amps and my speakers and this i do so much i can.
 Enjoy


----------



## krisno

yes he is great and very forgiving..

 But how is it when using the AKG K 701? Do you enjoy it - non fatiguing??

 But the EARTH opamp made a big difference??

 K


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Audio-gd reference 1 is superb and in a different league to the analog outputs of the ST. The biggest improvements are detail (everywhere), imaging, Bass depth and detail and emotional communication. I find the Ref1 totally uncoloured and it is wonderful with my Phoenix headphone amp. I am also intending to get a C3Mk3 soon. Please let me know what you think of it. What power amp are you using? I am intending 2 pairs of C1-Masters or else 2 C1s._

 

LOL... 
 I always find such audiophile explanations to be a tad incomprehensible, but I guess sound is not easily expressed in words.

  Quote:


 The coaxial digital output from the ST is great but a Hiface usb to coaxial/bnc converter is even better. 
 

What is this? 
 Why would one want it & why is it better?

 Thanks!


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use self crafted power amps 2 x 4 channel 400W self crafted by using Hypex UCD 400HG with HxR12. 
 For the C3Mk3 this will be my first buy, but i have to wait until i have the money together.
 By the end of March i think i can order the pre amp. As soon i have my first listening impression i will wright it. 
 But if you have the pre first please let me know your impressions. 

 Thanks for your responce
 Best Regards_

 

Do you have the links to all this gear? Just curious, thanks!


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes he is great and very forgiving..

 But how is it when using the AKG K 701? Do you enjoy it - non fatiguing??

 But the EARTH opamp made a big difference??

 K_

 

Yes i enjoy the k701 but to say the truth i listen much much more over my speakers.
 The Haedphone is only sometimes for the night in the time my wife could not sleep if i want to her something louder


----------



## fine art acoustic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you have the links to all this gear? Just curious, thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

you can find all this stuff under audio-gd-dot-com


----------



## krisno

removed


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Something very fishy is giong on with audio-gd.

 its impossible to sell all that R&D and products at those low prices. It seems to be copied Krell Equipment or something... but who knows._

 

I only have 2 audio-gd products the reference 1 and Phoenix so far but the performance is amazing! Are you really complaining that Audio-gd products perform above their price.

 I am fairly sure that there is a significant amount of shared development between models of audio-gd products e.g. acss is utilised accross many ranges.

 If someone could build me a lamborghini for the price of a toyota I wouldn't be complaining. Perhaps its the prices of other gear that is 'fishy'

 Macrog


----------



## krisno

removed


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_keep your feelings to yourself when we discuss this. Try to be objective...

 Maybe all other equipment is majorly overpriced. But Audio GD has no production of scale. How can those prices pay for all the R&D needed to create those great products?

 I do not understand it? and wonder if it is reverse engineered Krell or something?

 Even ASUS with a massive scale in production would not be able to deliver those Audio-GD products at those prices?_

 

Asus are a premium brand and dont target the budget market vigorously.

 Your statement that there was something fishy is not objective and is potentially commercially damaging. I think making suggestions of wrong doing against a manufacturer (or anyone for that matter) in the absence of any evidence is less than positive and irresponsible.

 Production costs in China are low and most Audio-gd products appear to be closely related to each other e.g. dacs 2, 4 or 8 chip with or without dsp1 and flexible input options. 

 So I would guess the majority of R&D goes into the high end models and then the technology is attempted to be utilized with as few compromises as possible down the model range.

 I would suggest that this discussion has little to do with the Xonar Essence ST and probably should be moved or even better discontinued.

 Macrog


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fine art acoustic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you can find all this stuff under audio-gd-dot-com
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks!


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *macrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The coaxial digital output from the ST is great but a Hiface usb to coaxial/bnc converter is even better._

 

What is this? 
 Why would one want it & why is it better?

 Thanks!


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_keep your feelings to yourself when we discuss this. Try to be objective...

 Maybe all other equipment is majorly overpriced. But Audio GD has no production of scale. How can those prices pay for all the R&D needed to create those great products?

 I do not understand it? and wonder if it is reverse engineered Krell or something?

 Even ASUS with a massive scale in production would not be able to deliver those Audio-GD products at those prices?_

 

It's just cheap manufacturing costs & Govt concessions for Chinese Co's.
 As they get more of a name, I wouldn't be surprised if their components gradually became much more expensive.

 But yeah, way OT.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Maybe we can get back to the Xonar Essence ST now?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is this? 
 Why would one want it & why is it better?

 Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Many say there are no differences between digital output and others say you can hear a difference.


----------



## krisno

you are right. I will remove post... I dont know; I just know how they pirate everything in China.


----------



## freestyler

So my ST arrived 2 days ago.
 Boy, it has some power!
 Listening to shotgun fire's from movies will scare you off. 

 I've got a problem. I've been reading from many people that the STX / ST are very quite cards yet i can hear much hissing from mine. (tested on some of the best recordings)

 I know my card is in a noisy environment between my PSU (good quality corsair hx620) and video card.
 On my pc case the PSU is positioned on the bottom.
 Plus some fans are making some noise so do you think that's the problem?

 I remember some songs the first hour i had installed the card, sounded like hissing mess.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So my ST arrived 2 days ago.
 Boy, it has some power!
 Listening to shotgun fire's from movies will scare you off. 

 I've got a problem. I've been reading from many people that the STX / ST are very quite cards yet i can hear much hissing from mine. (tested on some of the best recordings)

 I know my card is in a noisy environment between my PSU (good quality corsair hx620) and video card.
 On my pc case the PSU is positioned on the bottom.
 Plus some fans are making some noise so do you think that's the problem?

 I remember some songs the first hour i had installed the card, sounded like hissing mess._

 

Many recording are dithered. Dithering adds noise in order to linearize the lower bits of the signal so hissing in many recordings is normal. The hiss should however go away when you press pause. Some types of dither used use noise shaped hiss which produces a sharp increase in the high frquencies of the dither noise. Chesky records does this for example. By moving the noise up to the highend of the audio spectrum the noise is actually less audible to most people & hence you han hear even softer sounds in the midrange before being covered by noise.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Many say there are no differences between digital output and others say you can hear a difference._

 

So he was basically saying the digi-out on one card is better than the digi-out on another? 
 But digital 's digital isn't it? ....

 So long as there's sufficient bandwidth & the path isn't damaged/interfered with...
 How exactly the output is implemented shouldn't matter, should it?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So he was basically saying the digi-out on one card is better than the digi-out on another? 
 But digital 's digital isn't it? ....

 So long as there's sufficient bandwidth & the path isn't damaged/interfered with...
 How exactly the output is implemented shouldn't matter, should it?_

 

Yes there can be significant diferences. Try hooking up the SPDIF cable from a C.D. drive that has it to the sound card then try the digital input through the PCI or PCI express slot. The sound can be hugely different. The PCI-PCI express being way more articulate the SPDIF.


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes there can be significant diferences. Try hooking up the SPDIF cable from a C.D. drive that has it to the sound card then try the digital input through the PCI or PCI express slot. The sound can be hugely different. The PCI-PCI express being way more articulate the SPDIF._

 

AFAIK the theoretical explantation for all these differences are various forms of jitter. The best explanation of this I've found (i.e. the only one that made sense to me) is here.


----------



## giedrys

How much real difference cheap vs. good power supply can make on ST in therms of sound quality?


----------



## h4sy0u

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So my ST arrived 2 days ago.
 Boy, it has some power!
 Listening to shotgun fire's from movies will scare you off. 

 I've got a problem. I've been reading from many people that the STX / ST are very quite cards yet i can hear much hissing from mine. (tested on some of the best recordings)

 I know my card is in a noisy environment between my PSU (good quality corsair hx620) and video card.
 On my pc case the PSU is positioned on the bottom.
 Plus some fans are making some noise so do you think that's the problem?

 I remember some songs the first hour i had installed the card, sounded like hissing mess._

 

I can confirm this !!! Essence is really bad in terms of eliminating noise/EMI.
 On Asus forum you can find enough people who reported these problems !


----------



## Alexander01

Another proof that EMI shields are just audio voodoo. The quality of the sound (clean sound,crispness,frequency response,soundstage, positional audio) is all about the audio processor in the soundcard. Only the clearness of the sound has to do with the card design (dedicated power input, filtering, DAC, opamps, board circuit etc). Not more then that.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alexander01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another proof that EMI shields are just audio voodoo. The quality of the sound (clean sound,crispness,frequency response,soundstage, positional audio) is all about the audio processor in the soundcard. Only the clearness of the sound has to do with the card design (dedicated power input, filtering, DAC, opamps, board circuit etc). Not more then that._

 

If you read his post he was complaining of noise within the recording which is in fact dither as he said it happens even in his best recordings. This indicates he is talking of noise within the recording. Dither noise is like tape hiss & is intentional in the recording to correct the nonlinearity of the 16 bit recording system that is used in the C.D. itself. 

 Other noises that may be attributed to the soundcard but are not due to the soundcard is ground loops which can make it sound like EMI is getting though when it is not. It is due to the polluted ground. The card itself without ground loops is extremely quiet.


----------



## krisno

He has got it wrong... the low noisefloor shows up noise even in the best recordings. That is what he is hearing. I can't even hear any noise from my Via onboard sound using AKG K 701 ...


----------



## ROBSCIX

When I tested the ST it was dead silent. If your heairng some type of noise it must be from another source such as PSU noise, bus noise or possibly floating inputs.


----------



## freestyler

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you read his post he was complaining of noise within the recording which is in fact dither as he said it happens even in his best recordings. This indicates he is talking of noise within the recording. Dither noise is like tape hiss & is intentional in the recording to correct the nonlinearity of the 16 bit recording system that is used in the C.D. itself. 

 Other noises that may be attributed to the soundcard but are not due to the soundcard is ground loops which can make it sound like EMI is getting though when it is not. It is due to the polluted ground. The card itself without ground loops is extremely quiet._

 

Indeed i was talking about noise only when music is playing. When nothing is playing it's silent.

 Some records i test include 44.1 khz flac files like Dire Straits - Brothers in arms, Nirvana & Eric Clapton MTV unplugged's etc.
 Funny thing is that i can barely listen the hissing from my low end headset sennheiser pc160. 
 I know it's there but i have to try to hear it, while with senns hd650 it's apparent (on higher volumes mostly).
 I haven't done much tests yet with different sample rates from the drivers or foobar re-samplers but i think i have more hissing on 96 khz rather than 48khz. That's why i'm using the latter.
 Also i haven't used the line out yet.

 So all this make me believe that what i hear can be infact be dither.
 Listened to some 24 bit 96 khz files earlier on evening (sample rates that supposedly the card doesn't do any resample) and it seemed quiter to me.

 My settings are 24bit 44.1 khz on windows for the device, 48khz on drivers and 24 bit output on foobar. Anything wrong?

 p.s: For example on beatles remasters that came out some months ago like on White album the hissing is very audible. My friend with beyer ad700's on his xonar dx complained about the same thing.
 I guess this is because of the poor original recordings and the remaster effort?

 Also the more i listen to the card the more i like it. (was a little disappointed the first day). Could be that i'm getting used to it, placebo or maybe some of the components needed some burn-in.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed i was talking about noise only when music is playing. When nothing is playing it's silent.

 Some records i test include 44.1 khz flac files like Dire Straits - Brothers in arms, Nirvana & Eric Clapton MTV unplugged's etc.
 Funny thing is that i can barely listen the hissing from my low end headset sennheiser pc160. 
 I know it's there but i have to try to hear it, while with senns hd650 it's apparent (on higher volumes mostly).
 I haven't done much tests yet with different sample rates from the drivers or foobar re-samplers but i think i have more hissing on 96 khz rather than 48khz. That's why i'm using the latter.
 Also i haven't used the line out yet.

 So all this make me believe that what i hear can be infact be dither.
 Listened to some 24 bit 96 khz files earlier on evening (sample rates that supposedly the card doesn't do any resample) and it seemed quiter to me.

 My settings are 24bit 44.1 khz on windows for the device, 48khz on drivers and 24 bit output on foobar. Anything wrong?

 p.s: For example on beatles remasters that came out some months ago like on White album the hissing is very audible. My friend with beyer ad700's on his xonar dx complained about the same thing.
 I guess this is because of the poor original recordings and the remaster effort?

 Also the more i listen to the card the more i like it. (was a little disappointed the first day). Could be that i'm getting used to it, placebo or maybe some of the components needed some burn-in. _

 

Looks like proper settings to me. These are the ones I've been recommending actually. Anything 48KHz & above in the drivers. If 48KHz sounds best to you then use it by all means. On 24 bit 96KHz recordings set the windows sound properties to 24 bit 96Khz & the sound card drivers to 96KHz to get zero resampling.

 Also on older analog based recording you can hear tape his as well in fact the really early CD's were mostly made from analog tapes & some had quite horendous hiss. Dither was not needed with these early CD's as the tape noise served to dither the recording. That is why the early CD's made from analog tapes sounded better than the early digital recorings. Early digital recordings were not dithered. They had horendous distortion at low volume levels.


----------



## gurubhai

Yup! the STX is dead silent. IMO, it is one thing where Xonar STX is actually a cut above its competition. Asus got the noise elimination circuitry right.


----------



## krisno

What you are hearing is the bitter end of 'hifi audio'. The noise floor is so high that you hear everything, and you will notice that alot of recordings have alot of noise.

 With my X-DAC V3, 132db noise floor(124 xonar ST) - I could no longer play Miles Davis. All I heard was hissing... noise from the recording.

 That is one of the reasons I orderd the Xonar D1 and not Essence...


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What you are hearing is the bitter end of 'hifi audio'. The noise floor is so high that you hear everything, and you will notice that alot of recordings have alot of noise.

 With my X-DAC V3, 132db noise floor(124 xonar ST) - I could no longer play Miles Davis. All I heard was hissing... noise from the recording.

 That is one of the reasons I orderd the Xonar D1 and not Essence..._

 

You mean the noise floor is so low actually as those are minus numbers relative to max output.


----------



## krisno

yes I mean low.

 I have some other issues also. I have never ever been able to make computer sound as full, musical and just plain good as even stand alone cheap CD players. It just does not seems possible. The bass is lacking, the treble is sharper, etc... I think it is caused by jitter, but not sure. 

 Empirical Audio USB Off Ramp 3 should solve it, but then you cant use soundcards. Check it out. So if it does - it really is jitter doing it.

 But that is also why its hard to buy expensive soundcards for the PC as there is some inherit flaws. My X-can V3 on computer, no matter what i did, didnt sound nearly as good as X-can V3 just connected to cheap sony dvd player.

 K


----------



## h4sy0u

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When I tested the ST it was dead silent. If your heairng some type of noise it must be from another source such as PSU noise, bus noise or possibly floating inputs._

 

Do you think that PSU with shielded cables may help ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h4sy0u* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you think that PSU with shielded cables may help ?_

 

I would think your on the right track, in that your possibly hearing noise introduced form the PSU.
 Is your card on it's own tap from the PSU or is there another device sharing the power cable?


----------



## h4sy0u

Yes it's on a separate cable. There is slight noise/hiss in the background all the time.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Did you mute all the inputs, such as Mic, line etc? Also make sure the mic boost is off.
 If these circuits are enabled with nothign conencted they can pick up noise.


----------



## giedrys

Not a very friendly thread unless you ask really geeky and hi-tech questions only(this doesn't apply to entire forum).

 I hope it's not o hard to answer: is it worth to upgrade PSU for the sake of better ST sound quality?!


----------



## krisno

giedrys ... of course not. save your money.


----------



## forciano

I was sort of having the same issue. I hear no hiss in the background when in total silence, but when i played music I could hear small distortions in the sound even when playing CD's. 
 I connected my amp to my UPS which my computer was already connected to, and this "seemed" to fixed it.
 Now I'm just worried about my dynamics being killed, I read before in some other thread in these forums UPS can do that to sound, but I will have to do more tests to verify the accuracy of these statements.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not a very friendly thread unless you ask really geeky and hi-tech questions only(this doesn't apply to entire forum).

 I hope it's not o hard to answer: is it worth to upgrade PSU for the sake of better ST sound quality?!_

 

 No. Unless your going to build an seperate high quality PSU you will notice little gains just switching brands of PSU.
 Unless your current model is a very old/dirty beast that is just polluting the card that is.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not a very friendly thread unless you ask really geeky and hi-tech questions only(this doesn't apply to entire forum).

 I hope it's not o hard to answer: is it worth to upgrade PSU for the sake of better ST sound quality?!_

 


 There are some very opinionated people here but most are friendly. Only a few that seem to try to be disagreeable. Some in an effort to support thier positions resort to unreasonable situations that nothing can really sound good with & then say its the card that is bad because it don't sound good in that circumstance. Of coarse those that know better are going to say something about it so others don't get the wrong impression. I can understand your feeling on this though as it probably don't look good to others that are just joining in on Head Fi.

 I agree with Robscix on this not worth the time & money to go to a better powersupply unless the one you have is really old & dirty electrically. Most newer supplies are pretty clean actually given the momentary currents they have to deliver. We are talking 100 watt swings of power instantaniously & still keep voltage ripple really low.


----------



## giedrys

Thank you all. I appreciate your inputs. 
 My PSU is not that old, Dell 375W. It's just that since i installed ST a month ago, i had 2 blue screens already for the first time on this PC in 2 years. I was wondering if that might be from the lack of power and ST being power hungry. Other than that, it works an sounds great.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thank you all. I appreciate your inputs. 
 My PSU is not that old, Dell 375W. It's just that since i installed ST a month ago, i had 2 blue screens already for the first time on this PC in 2 years. I was wondering if that might be from the lack of power and ST being power hungry. Other than that, it works an sounds great._

 

Audio cards in general are not really power hungry. As you can see there is no heatsinks on it & in fact that nice cover they have tends to hold some heat in. I suspect the driver interacting negatively to other software you have. Not sure if you are using it for gaming at all but some games can cause blue screens with different audio cards. I've had no blue screens here with the STX card.


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have some other issues also. I have never ever been able to make computer sound as full, musical and just plain good as even stand alone cheap CD players. It just does not seems possible. The bass is lacking, the treble is sharper, etc... I think it is caused by jitter, but not sure. _

 

From what I've read your choice of AKG Acoustics K 701 headphones may explain a lot of what you're describing. They are said to be highly-detailed/bright which could explain what you describe as sharp treble and lack of musicality. They are also open-ear which could explain the perceived lack of bass.

 Have you ever properly auditioned closed-ear headphones that have a warmer/darker character?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Very true some forget that their headphones or speakers have alot to do with their system response.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

With my ST and a 300 W PSU, connected separetly, there is no hiss through speakers or headphone in any case, although with onboard's sound card, (Analogue Devices sound max cadenza), there was!

 Please, is it known for the volume control of the ST, if it reduces the resolution, so it must be at maximum position always? Because the green part on ASUS control, suggests that it keeps lower the distortion when we use the left part? So which is the optimum point?

 Thank you.


----------



## krisno

Well - i used the AKG K 701 phones when i listened to the X-can v3 connected to the cheap sony dvd player also... so its computer as source that is a major problem. But maybe this new workstation solves it. I was using laptop at the time... no matter what I did; it did not compare to the musicality and good sound(even way superior bass) on the cheap sony dvd player.


----------



## mojave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hellenic vanagon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please, is it known for the volume control of the ST, if it reduces the resolution, so it must be at maximum position always? Because the green part on ASUS control, suggests that it keeps lower the distortion when we use the left part? So which is the optimum point?

 Thank you._

 

In the mixer tab there are volume level sliders. According to the manual, these should be at 100 for the full scale volume level. The default is 76. 

 The volume control knob's colors have nothing to do with distortion. If you have an external volume control, then this should be at max level. If you don't have an external volume control, then use it for whatever volume level you desire.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the mixer tab there are volume level sliders. According to the manual, these should be at 100 for the full scale volume level. The default is 76. 

 The volume control knob's colors have nothing to do with distortion. If you have an external volume control, then this should be at max level. If you don't have an external volume control, then use it for whatever volume level you desire._

 

Thank you very much! 

 Any comment about resolution and if there is a decrease, decreasing the volume?


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well - i used the AKG K 701 phones when i listened to the X-can v3 connected to the cheap sony dvd player also... so its computer as source that is a major problem._

 

That's a non-sequiteur IMHO, assuming the Sony DVD player has a warm, dark low-detail type character. The only way to reach the conclusion you are making is to audition your PC with a darker more 'system friendly' pair of headphones. Too many pluses make a minus, as I recently found out with my system.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the mixer tab there are volume level sliders. According to the manual, these should be at 100 for the full scale volume level. The default is 76. 

 The volume control knob's colors have nothing to do with distortion. If you have an external volume control, then this should be at max level. If you don't have an external volume control, then use it for whatever volume level you desire._

 

Leave those sliders at the default 76% or you will get massive limiting & the sound becomes very disconcerting to listen to. This card has a built in limitor to prevent clipping providing of coarse that the signal is not already clipped in the recording with many pop recordings do have a lot of already. While the limitor does pretty much eliminate clipping a signal that is not already clipped its action is the fast clamp slower release kind & that is what makes the sound hard to lisen to.

 The volume knob is ok to use providing you set windows sound properties for speakers to 24 bit audio. there will be no reduction of audio quality at any normal listening volume. By the time the signal start to truncate the volume will be so low as not to be a practical listening volume anyway.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Leave those sliders at the default 76% or you will get massive compression & the sound becomes very disconcerting to listen to. This card has a built in compressor to prevent clipping providing of coarse that the signal is not already clipped in the recording with many pop recordings do have a lot of already.

 The volume knob is ok to use providing you set windows sound properties for speakers to 24 bit audio. there will be no reduction of audio quality at any normal listening volume. By the time the signal start to truncate the volume will be so low as not to be a practical listening volume anyway._

 

1)Very intresting! The sliders to 76% ! Is this reffered to manual, (because mine doesn't say anything), or it is set by default when you reset the system?

 2)Does anybody knows how the volume control works? Is there any digital degradation of the signal when we lowering it?


 Now something else! Is there any case of mulfumction of the card in 16/44, because look what this RMAA test sugests:

 The measurements:

 44 kHz/16 bits:Frequency response (from 40 cycles per second of tons of 15 kHz), railways+0.02, -0.13Very good
 Noise level, railways (A)-95.2Excellent
 Dynamic rank, railways (A)95.6Excellent
 THD, %0.016Good
*THD + Noise, railways (A)-32.5Very poor*
 IMD + Noise, %0.0047Excellent
 Stereo CROSS talc, railways-95.1Excellent
 IMD RK 10 kHz, %0.0050Excellent
 General performanceExcellent


 Here:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate... measurements:

 And if so, using the play & pause and having both volume controls, (asus & amplifier), in maximum, there must be a noise from the speakers? Is this a way to check if this bad measurement in THD+NOISE is active for our ST's?


----------



## mojave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Leave those sliders at the default 76% or you will get massive limiting & the sound becomes very disconcerting to listen to. This card has a built in limitor to prevent clipping providing of coarse that the signal is not already clipped in the recording with many pop recordings do have a lot of already. While the limitor does pretty much eliminate clipping a signal that is not already clipped its action is the fast clamp slower release kind & that is what makes the sound hard to lisen to.

 The volume knob is ok to use providing you set windows sound properties for speakers to 24 bit audio. there will be no reduction of audio quality at any normal listening volume. By the time the signal start to truncate the volume will be so low as not to be a practical listening volume anyway._

 

I was wondering this past weekend where the volume sliders should be. I couldn't find anything online so I checked the manual. The manual says, "Drag this slider down to decrease the volume. Drag it up to increase the volume. The tool-tip reveals the percentage number from 1 to 100 in terms of the full scale level." I understand from that statement that whenever it is lower than 100 the level is being attenuated. Is there a way to measure what the actual setting should be? It doesn't really make sense that they would set it at an arbitrary 76%, but they might have. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Last night I listened for an hour with the volume sliders at 100. There was more detail present and it seemed like the highs were clearer and slightly louder. 

 This statement was in Stereophile's recent review of the Essence ST/STX, but I couldn't quite correlate it to my slider settings of 0-100.
  Quote:


 The maximum output level from the line outputs was 2.16V; from the headphone jack, it depended on the setting chosen: 885mV (0dB, for headphones with impedances below 64 ohms), 3.52V (+12dB for headphones with impedances of 64–300 ohms), and 7.03V (+18dB for headphones with impedances of >300 ohms). Peculiarly, this maximum level remained the same if the Playback Level was increased to its maximum (12dB) in the Mixer panel of the Xonar Control Center. All that happened was that signals below the selected gain were amplified, but signals at or above it were unaffected; ie, with 12dB of gain selected, signals at or below –12dB were boosted by 12dB to 0dB; signals above –12dB were hard-limited to the same 0dB. The line output impedance was a moderately low 99 ohms at all frequencies; the headphone output impedance was 10.7 ohms at all frequencies and settings. All the outputs preserved absolute polarity; ie, were non-inverting.


----------



## krisno

phusg I think you nailed it

 warm, dark low-detail type character..... but it was fuller, more organic, no matter what I tried on PC. ASIO or not. It just is never the same overall quality.

 K


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Hello! My last post still is not apparent! Is there any reason for that?


----------



## freestyler

Some other differences i noticed from my previous xonar d1:

 1) Sometimes i play cod4 and have music playing at the same time, both at high volumes.
 Well, the gunfires in cod4 sounded "masked" by music. They drop in volume.
 When there is silent in music like for example when it's changing songs, the game sounds are once again loud.
 It's like as if the card can't handle playing both audio streams at high volumes.
 With the ST, game sounds don't get affected at all. I can listen to loud music and the gun fires are still strong with no "sweat" at all from the sound card.

 2) Even when the volume slider in windows was all the way down to zero (0) i could still hear, barely ofc, sound from what i have open (like music on foobar)
 With ST, zero volume form windows mixer, means absolute silence.

 3) d1: On very high volumes (ones you don't listen for more than one song) there is some "flickering" (don't know what word to use, english is not my native language).
 Meaning the sound is not consistent. It's loud but not dynamic at the same time, instruments and vocals sometimes are loud and the next sec they sound weak.
 On ST it seems not affected. But on d1's defense i didn't try to set the volume anywhere nearly enough of what the ST can offer in extra high gain.


 Just wanted to add that.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was wondering this past weekend where the volume sliders should be. I couldn't find anything online so I checked the manual. The manual says, "Drag this slider down to decrease the volume. Drag it up to increase the volume. The tool-tip reveals the percentage number from 1 to 100 in terms of the full scale level." I understand from that statement that whenever it is lower than 100 the level is being attenuated. Is there a way to measure what the actual setting should be? It doesn't really make sense that they would set it at an arbitrary 76%, but they might have. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Last night I listened for an hour with the volume sliders at 100. There was more detail present and it seemed like the highs were clearer and slightly louder. 

 This statement was in Stereophile's recent review of the Essence ST/STX, but I couldn't quite correlate it to my slider settings of 0-100._

 

I tried it at 100%. I figured out how the limiter works by listening. When you ride the limiter the sound will be impressive until you find that the medium loud sounds get modulated by the by the drum beats. that is what this limiter does. So by running those two sliders past the 76% default value you squash the dynamics of the music. Recording studios do this also but with more sophisticater limters & compressors. When they do it the music still sounds clean without the pumping but gets tiring after a while due to the limited dynamics. Everything trying to be louder than everything else syndrome.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 3) d1: On very high volumes (ones you don't listen for more than one song) there is some "flickering" (don't know what word to use, english is not my native language).
 Meaning the sound is not consistent. It's loud but not dynamic at the same time, instruments and vocals sometimes are loud and the next sec they sound weak._

 

That is the sound that the limiter does with these cards. All the Cmedia Oxygen cards will do this. Putting the 2 speaker mixer sliders above 76% will result in limiting on these cards. This is done to prevent damage due to clipping. It can still damage speakers due to the limited dynamics but there is less chance of burning out tweeters due to clipping which is usually blows first when subjected to excessive clipping.


----------



## giedrys

So long story short it's better to leave it at 76% permanently, right?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So long story short it's better to leave it at 76% permanently, right?_

 

correct!!


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hellenic vanagon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With my ST and a 300 W PSU, connected separetly, there is no hiss through speakers or headphone in any case, although with onboard's sound card, (Analogue Devices sound max cadenza), there was!

 Please, is it known for the volume control of the ST, if it reduces the resolution, so it must be at maximum position always? Because the green part on ASUS control, suggests that it keeps lower the distortion when we use the left part? So which is the optimum point?

 Thank you.





_

 

Your question actually has more than one answer for itI would not worry about reduced resolution at any resonable volume on this card. If widows audio control panel advanced setting is set to 24 bit/ any sample rate, you will not get any truncation of bit on C.D. quality files (16bit/44.1 sample rate) until you reach 48db down on the volume. Any truncation that occure below that volume will be below the noise floor of the DACs & opamps combined. I.E. not at all audible. Truncation begins at -144 db & noise floor is around -124 or -117 depending on which output you use. as you can see the truncation is more than 20db below the noise floor of these outputs!!

 If you leave windows sound control setting at 16bit/ any sample rate then you will start to truncate data immediately hence a slight reduction in quality but even this with modern DACs is largely inaudible at any resonable volume & may only become audible on very wide dynamic music with lots of really quiet passages. Modern DACs show very little audible distortion with undithered music even at -80db. That shows how linear the newer DACs are. Older ones had very audible distortion at -60db even with dither in some cases due to thier own nonlinearity.

 The speaker volume sliders in the driver control panel in the mixer button should be left at 76% for best sound as putting them up to 100% will result in limiting on most pop music & that sound is very diconcerting once you notice it.

 My recommended settings are as follows 

 1.For C.D. quality music Setting the windows sound control panel advanced tab to 24 bit/44.1KHz sample rate, setting the Driver control panel main button page to any sample rate 48KHz or higher. Also in the driver Mixer button panel speaker control set these sliders to default which is 76%. With these setting you can get the best possable sound with out truncation at any reasonable volume using either the widows volume control or the drivers. Allowing the soundcard to upsample the signal reduces jitter as there is no clock for 44.1KHz & Xonar has a superb samplerate converter.

 2. For 24 bit files set every thing the same as before except the sample rate in the windows sound control panel advanced tab set to whatever the sample rate is of the file & set the Xonar driver cotrol panel main button page sample rate to whatever the files sample rate is or higher.


----------



## freestyler

Well that explains it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I had the sliders on maximum in d1 & ST but i couldn't hear the very bad effects of limiting on ST of course cause it would take far more volume than with d1. Volume that is hurting the ears.

 With extra high gain (+18db) + mixer sliders at 100% you have a very small window to work with on windows sound.
 I mean, i had the windows volume 8-10 and that was enough for music and games.

 Btw i use a slightly altered equalizer (in foobar only, not on asus panel) with auto level as well. 
 It shouldn't distort the sound much, right? (on good quality files it's working fine. Only on the very poor you might have some problems with bass)


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well that explains it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I had the sliders on maximum in d1 & ST but i couldn't hear the very bad effects of limiting on ST of course cause it would take far more volume than with d1. Volume that is hurting the ears.

 With extra high gain (+18db) + mixer sliders at 100% you have a very small window to work with on windows sound.
 I mean, i had the windows volume 8-10 and that was enough for music and games.

 Btw i use a slightly altered equalizer (in foobar only, not on asus panel) with auto level as well. 
 It shouldn't distort the sound much, right? (on good quality files it's working fine. Only on the very poor you might have some problems with bass)




_

 

Set to low gain & retest with main volume all the way up as well & you will hear the limiting.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Allowing the soundcard to upsample the signal reduces jitter as there is no clock for 44.1KHz & Xonar has a superb samplerate converter._

 

Very intresting analysis!

 But how we know that there is no clock for 44.1KHZ? Is there any manufacturer's reference in specs which I cannot see? Or this is a discovery through your background?

 And does that mean that jitter in this case is absolutely uncontroled? Because, after "STEREOPHILES" jitter measurement for STX, we may hope that ST's jitter is about 125 ps, (180 ps - 31%). But without clock for 44.1 KHZ, (the missing is only for this frequency), without upsampling it may be whatever it likes!


----------



## mojave

germanium,
 Thanks for the info on the sliders. I have set them back to 76%. I checked out my X-Fi Elite card in audio creation mode and its sliders are set at 75% and shows the dB at 0. Moving the sliders to 100% adds a 12 dB gain. I think this is the same gain that the mixer in Essence in doing and thus it was referenced as a 12 dB gain in the Stereophile article that I quoted earlier.

 Now I wonder why they chose 76% as the default and maybe 75% would actually be 0 dB.


----------



## krisno

Freestyle

 Could you elaborate a little on the sound difference betwen ST and D1?

 1) Which is the warmer sound?
 2) Does the D1 have the same 'wooden' sound as other of the Xonar range and ST? Is D1 as warm and musical as ST is my question?
 3) Which is the most fatiguing?

 K


----------



## freestyler

Well i can't exactly tell you their differences since i don't have a separate amp.
 So with d1 i didn't use senns hd650 but a headset (senns pc 160).
 So basically i went from d1 & headset to ST & hd650.

 I'm not familiar much with the "audiophile" terms but if you want to read a noob's journey (aka wall of text) into the "head-fi" world, go on and read ahead.

 Around 3 years ago my first dive into the more expensive headphone world was hd650 and a corda cantate. I bought them at the same time without ever before having a prior listen to any other high end headphones.

 With that in mind i was expecting something completely "magical". Insane bass enough to shake your head, extreme soundstage, and "club feeling". (i mainly listen to trance / vocal trance but i can really appreciate everything that is good)
 Can't exactly describe it with words but i was really expecting to be completely thrown away by the sound for my new expensive investment. (330 euros for the cans and 450 for the amp)

 So when they both finally arrived i burned them in for around 6 days.
 Boy i was disappointed. It wasn't even close to what i was expecting. 
 I was like "where is the bass everyone talked about that hd650 got?"
 I was expecting something more dynamic. To feel the voice, the instruments, the bass, everything to be more "alive".

 In corda cantate's defense, i only used it together with it's DAC which wasn't really the selling point of the amp and also i didn't change the gain of the amp. Which i think it needed another scale to drive the 650's better.

 Combined with the "veiled" sound (now i see why everyone talked about that characteristic of the cans) and not testing the amp properly made me prefer the sound of my headset + audigy ls rather than my new equipment.
 At least i had the sound "in my face" and it was better for games when i wanted to hear footsteps etc.

 Did i dive too deep on my first contact with head-fi? Maybe, but all this led me to decide to sell both my cans and amp and maybe after some months to buy something cheaper like ad700 or dt880 and not bother much with amps and stuff.

 I sold the amp but couldn't find anyone to sell the headphones. So they were stuck in their box for almost 2 years (still smell as new) without ever trying them again. (what's to try with the audigy ls anyway)
 I bought a new pc and the new mobo didn't recognize my old audigy so it was time for a new card cause the onboard realtek is easily the worst piece of electronic equipment i have ever come αcrossed. Period.

 Even tho i play games every day, i value music more so i decided to buy a xonar card.
 I was highly satisfied by it & my headset and i promoted it to many friends and got around 4 more people to buy it.

 Since it was so good for my headset i decided to give it a go with my senn 650 just for the "kicks".
 While with d1 you could get high volumes with hd650's, the sound was flat and not enjoyable. 
 But it was enough to spark my interest again about those headphones. I knew they had much more to offer than with what i've seen so far.

 Also with 3 years passed i got my hands around some more quality music so i decided to give it another go.
 But this time i didn't want to spend very much on amp / dac cause my budget was very limited plus the disappointment would be lower if i wasn't satisfied again  

 And here i am with ST. This time around i had a more realistic idea of what headphones in general are able to achieve. 
 For example i knew i could never get the bass that you can get with a subwoofer ofc. Simple physics. The low frequencies need more space to travel to extend to their full etc.

 I never knew my headphones could sound so "alive" and so (i don't know the english word for it so i'm gonna use google translate) "vigorously / perky".
 It certainly feels more aggressive than with d1.
 I can see why some might be a little annoyed from the trebles of the card with some cans especially on higher volumes but i like it. (650's aren't known to be so bright anyway)
 From my little time with my previous amp i can say for sure that the cantate was a lot "warmer".

 When the recording is good (and lossless) it's really a joy to listen.
 But i quickly learned about the "loudness war" and it's effects. 
 Good recordings vs poor stuff (not in file quality) it's day and night to spot the differences. 

 Also i never experienced fatigue with either of those cards / cans combo and trust me when i say i listen to headphones all day. (no speakers)
 And i know what fatigue is like cause when i use some old closed type philips headphones i bought many years ago when i go to my hometown, you get discomfort pretty fast from listening to them. Could be the closed design with extreme isolation and the pressure that is created. I just know i can't listen long periods with them.


*Too long didn't read version: I'm satisfied with the result for the money i paid.*


----------



## ROBSCIX

Hey guys, I have confirmed with the powers that be at ASUS that they will be releasing a new and improved driver set the the public for the STX/ST.

 Yes, they will provide "bit perfect" output.

 These new drivers are low latency and based on what I have seen they provide some very impressive numbers in comparison to previous releases.

 While still in early Beta stage they provide what some of you have been after, using ASIO to acheive bit perfect output. There are a few other details the you might find interesting about the driver but I don't want to release all the surprises...

 Stay tuned for more information and updates.


----------



## forciano

Good stuff, improvements are always welcome.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey guys, I have confirmed with the powers that be at ASUS that they will be releasing a new and improved driver set the the public for the STX/ST.

 Yes, they will provide "bit perfect" output.

 These new drivers are low latency and based on what I have seen they provide some very impressive numbers in comparison to previous releases.

 While still in early Beta stage they provide what some of you have been after, using ASIO to acheive bit perfect output. There are a few other details the you might find interesting about the driver but I don't want to release all the surprises...

 Stay tuned for more information and updates._

 

Was anything mentioned about more solid GNU/Linux support, or will that remain entirely up to the generosity of the community?


----------



## ROBSCIX

I will look into it but cannot promise anything.


----------



## BoilermakerFan

Rob, is there a user swappable opamp in the mic preamp or Line In section? The manual just gives brief info about it having a built in mic preamp, but doesn't mention if it has the same socketed opamps.


----------



## ROBSCIX

No, the opamps are soldered to the board. Personally I never use the cards mic inputs as they are usually very poor quality in comparison to gear meant for "real recording".
 I have alot of recording gear so I usually use mic preamps for such things.
 The line inputs on these cards are surprisingly good, specification wise.


----------



## BoilermakerFan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, the opamps are soldered to the board. Personally I never use the cards mic inputs as they are usually very poor quality in comparison to gear meant for "real recording".
 I have alot of recording gear so I usually use mic preamps for such things.
 The line inputs on these cards are surprisingly good, specification wise._

 

I'd be using the Line In, but it's a shared connection with the Mic In. Hoping it would be a decent ADC capture when fed by my AudioSector phonostage to rip vinyl into the PC. Otherwise I need to buy a used M-Audio Audiophile FireWire.


----------



## audionewbieyao

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well i can't exactly tell you their differences since i don't have a separate amp......

*Too long didn't read version: I'm satisfied with the result for the money i paid.*_

 

Man.. that's great story, I can only say I've had similar experience, and I am satisfied with my money spent on Xonar.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BoilermakerFan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd be using the Line In, but it's a shared connection with the Mic In. Hoping it would be a decent ADC capture when fed by my AudioSector phonostage to rip vinyl into the PC. Otherwise I need to buy a used M-Audio Audiophile FireWire._

 

The ADC on this card is quite good the specifications seem more then suitable for ripping some vinyl. To note, does your phono stage have a Pre-amp? If not then you will need to get one as the output of a turntable is way too low to be used with a line input. Some come with pre-amps built in and some do not.


----------



## hesus

i've been reading this thread and feel kinda confused 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 This card seems very interesting, but i would like to know two things:
 1. How good is built-in amp? will it be sufficient for higher-ohm cans like HD650(300ohm) or DT880(250ohm)
 2. does someone know how it compares to nuforce uDac?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The ADC on this card is quite good the specifications seem more then suitable for ripping some vinyl. To note, does your phono stage have a Pre-amp? If not then you will need to get one as the output of a turntable is way too low to be used with a line input. Some come with pre-amps built in and some do not._

 

While tha ADC is definately of sufficient quality great care must be taken as the input to these ADCs are sensitive to overload & easily damaged. A single needle drop my be all thats needed to blow out the ADC especially if your phono preamp has higher than usual output!!!!!!


----------



## ROBSCIX

There seems to be mixed info on that, some say they are and then some say they are fine. I have never had issue when using them but I have never used anything that is over line level.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There seems to be mixed info on that, some say they are and then some say they are fine. I have never had issue when using them but I have never used anything that is over line level._

 

In my case I use a high output moving coil cartridge. If I use the moving magnet setting on my preamp the output is quite low, lower than really acceptable for recording, but if I use the moving coil setting the output is very high & could blow the ADC.


----------



## BoilermakerFan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The ADC on this card is quite good the specifications seem more then suitable for ripping some vinyl. To note, does your phono stage have a Pre-amp? If not then you will need to get one as the output of a turntable is way too low to be used with a line input. Some come with pre-amps built in and some do not._

 

Somehow I missed your reply Rob. My phonostage is a try phonostage, so it will have about 40dB gain for MM cartridges and RIAA correction. It's an AudioSector PCB. Not going crazy with the parts as I can't really stomach $400 for (4) output V-Caps, but I did go with almost the same BOM as the designer sans those V-Caps and will be using Panasonic or Wima box caps instead and VitQs for the lower value caps. 

 Output should be 2.0-2.2V so I appreciate the warning, but I think I'll be fine. Planning to buy a vintage Rega, Pioneer, or Denon TT and upgrade it to a highly modded Rega TB250 or TB251 tonearm and new DC or transcriptor motor. Current TT in teh console is a Pro-Ject 1.2 with Grado Green. Have a Grado Gold waiting for the new TT and I will eventually add a Zu Audio ZL103 cartridge and rework the phonostage to about 50dB gain to better match the modded Denon MC cartridge.

 I have a great AudioSector NOS USB DAC and two Cavalli Audio headphone amps under construction, with a third in the wings, so I won't be using the headphone output on the Sonar. May eventually add the H6, then roll the op-amps for HT use. For me, it's all about the ADC and vinyl!


----------



## Mike`

Hello,
 is there any info on a new revision of the STX to bring it to the STs level, eg adding the expansion header and the CS2000 chip? i'd probably buy the ST right now but i would really feel more comfortable to have a pcie card..oh well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've just sent an email to the german press contact at asus, but don't expect any positive answer, i guess..


----------



## ROBSCIX

No. However, there are a few that have changed the circuitry themselves. You cannot really add the H6 card without some serious modification although others have improved the timing circuit.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BoilermakerFan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Somehow I missed your reply Rob. My phonostage is a try phonostage, so it will have about 40dB gain for MM cartridges and RIAA correction. It's an AudioSector PCB. Not going crazy with the parts as I can't really stomach $400 for (4) output V-Caps, but I did go with almost the same BOM as the designer sans those V-Caps and will be using Panasonic or Wima box caps instead and VitQs for the lower value caps. 

 Output should be 2.0-2.2V so I appreciate the warning, but I think I'll be fine. Planning to buy a vintage Rega, Pioneer, or Denon TT and upgrade it to a highly modded Rega TB250 or TB251 tonearm and new DC or transcriptor motor. Current TT in teh console is a Pro-Ject 1.2 with Grado Green. Have a Grado Gold waiting for the new TT and I will eventually add a Zu Audio ZL103 cartridge and rework the phonostage to about 50dB gain to better match the modded Denon MC cartridge.

 I have a great AudioSector NOS USB DAC and two Cavalli Audio headphone amps under construction, with a third in the wings, so I won't be using the headphone output on the Sonar. May eventually add the H6, then roll the op-amps for HT use. For me, it's all about the ADC and vinyl! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Heh, 

 I just realised I can use my ST to capture all our old LP's and Tapes!

 I was looking at dedicated devices for that:
Griffin Technology: iMic - USB Audio Interface
ThinkGeek :: Electronics :: Digital Conversion

 I may still need a phono pre-amp, I guess neither of these are good with the ST?
TerraTec Phono PreAmp iVinyl
Phono Preamp USB

 Any recommendations?

 Thanks!


----------



## BoilermakerFan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh, 

 I just realised I can use my ST to capture all our old LP's and Tapes!

 I was looking at dedicated devices for that:
Griffin Technology: iMic - USB Audio Interface
ThinkGeek :: Electronics :: Digital Conversion

 I may still need a phono pre-amp, I guess neither of these are good with the ST?
TerraTec Phono PreAmp iVinyl
Phono Preamp USB

 Any recommendations?

 Thanks!_

 

The TerraTec iVinyl is a well received and reviewed pre-amp for capturing vinyl into the PC. Even Fremmer liked it and recommended it in Stereophile a couple years ago when it came out, but IIRC, it's a USB device and will essentially by-pass the need to use the Sonar's Line In.

 I would avoid the other three items you linked. You can get a nice, low-cost TT pre-amp by AT for under US$100 at NeedleDoctor in the US. He has it on sale for $60 and it is all you would need with the TT and the Sonar XT. Depending on your tape deck, you probably will not need a pre-amp for it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Cassette decks are usually line level. Many turntables will need a RIAA preamp...not all but many of them.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


 I would avoid the other three items you linked. 
 

Including the other phono preamp? 
 It looks pretty good 'stats-wise' next to the TT

  Quote:


 You can get a nice, low-cost TT pre-amp by AT for under US$100 at NeedleDoctor in the US. 
 

I'm one of those weird folk that comes from a land down-under




 Who's AT, doesn't TT make the device? 

  Quote:


 He has it on sale for $60 and it is all you would need with the TT and the Sonar XT. 
 

You mean I use the USB TT I linked to + the ST? 
 But that doesn't make sense 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 How do I test whether our turntable and deck are at line-level?
 Thanks everyone!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do I test whether our turntable and deck are at line-level?
 Thanks everyone!_

 

You can check on the back if they have a "spec" sticker. Line level is a bit over 2 volts. Some TT's have RIAA preamps built in and others do not.
 If you conenct them to you card and you cannot get a reasonable signal they are not the proper level. If they have a preamp, you will have a high level signal coming in.


----------



## BoilermakerFan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Including the other phono preamp? 
 It looks pretty good 'stats-wise' next to the TT



 I'm one of those weird folk that comes from a land down-under 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Who's AT, doesn't TT make the device? 



 You mean I use the USB TT I linked to + the ST? 
 But that doesn't make sense 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 How do I test whether our turntable and deck are at line-level?
 Thanks everyone!_

 

The Art brand is not a well made piece. The TerraTech iVinyl is a complete, integrated solution, it is a phonostage with RIAA correction and an ADC that converts the analog to digital, then to USB. So all you need is that setup and your turntable. The Sonar ST would only be your sound card and headphone amp. You would not use the Line Inputs of the ST to capture your records. You can use the Sonar ST to capture cassette tapes with a RCA-to-1/4" TRS cable.

 But if you plan to buy or already have the Sonar ST, then you do not really need the iVinyl. A simple phonostage like the Audio Technica I mentioned before would work fine and it's hundreds of dollars less expensive:
Needle Doctor Phono Preamps, Phono Preamplifiers, and Stereo Phono Preamps 1-800-229-0644 AT-PEQ3 Phono Preamp

 I don't know if Jerry ships to Oz or not though, but even if you had to pay $45 for US Priority Mail shipping, it's still a great buy and the Sonar ST / PEQ3 combo is about the same cost or cheaper than the iVinyl alone. 

 Using the PEQ3, you hook you turntable into the PEQ3 and then use that same RCA-to-1/4" TRS plug cable to connect the PEQ3 to the Sonar XT. 

 The caveat to the PEQ3 is that is for moving magnet (MM) cartridges only, not MC cartridges, but there are plenty of nice MM cartridges in the $100-$200 range if your were planning to upgrade.

 As to whether your turntable has a preamp built in, well, most do not unless it is a newer, lower end unit. You can always post the make and model and we can let you know for sure.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BoilermakerFan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But if you plan to buy or already have the Sonar ST, then you do not really need the iVinyl. A simple phonostage like the Audio Technica I mentioned before would work fine and it's hundreds of dollars less expensive:
Needle Doctor Phono Preamps, Phono Preamplifiers, and Stereo Phono Preamps 1-800-229-0644 AT-PEQ3 Phono Preamp I don't know if Jerry ships to Oz or not though, but even if you had to pay $45 for US Priority Mail shipping, it's still a great buy and the Sonar ST / PEQ3 combo is about the same cost or cheaper than the iVinyl alone._

 

Thanks guys, yes I already do have the ST, so all I need is that RIAA preamp + an RCA-to-1/4" TRS cable, & I'm ready to capture Cassettes or LP's!
 I'll do the check Rob suggested 1st to be sure I need a preamp...

  Quote:


 The caveat to the PEQ3 is that is for moving magnet (MM) cartridges only, not MC cartridges, but there are plenty of nice MM cartridges in the $100-$200 range if your were planning to upgrade. 
 

Are you referring to audio cassettes? No idea what ours are... 
 Having moved around the world so much over the years, we don't have many left that's for sure!

  Quote:


 As to whether your turntable has a preamp built in, well, most do not unless it is a newer, lower end unit. You can always post the make and model and we can let you know for sure. 
 

I'm sure it's at least 30yrs old, not sure if it's still actually working. 
 LOL, I'll have to check that first I guess!


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can check on the back if they have a "spec" sticker. Line level is a bit over 2 volts. Some TT's have RIAA preamps built in and others do not.
 If you conenct them to you card and you cannot get a reasonable signal they are not the proper level. If they have a preamp, you will have a high level signal coming in._

 

How can I tell that I've got a reasonable signal or a high level one?

 Thank-you.


----------



## ROBSCIX

if the turntable doesn't have an amplifier you will not be able to get a usable signal. I doubt it will even register on a line level input. A cassette deck or TT with a preamp will output about 2.4 volts, possibly more if the units has output faders.

 Whatever recording software you are using try and keep the input level between -6 and -3 dB to allow for peaking. This will give you enough headroom to apply any effects you may need to. 
 Are you planning on just copying these over and leaving them or do you want to do some work such as remove noise, bring up the levels...remove pops and clicks?

 The input ADC on the ST is high enough quality to allow you to do this task and get good results.


----------



## krisno

ROBSCIX

 Is the Asus Xonar Essence ST/X warmer than the Xonar D1?

 May I ask also how the lineout differs in sound from the headphone out?

 (PS. Have you ever modded a Xonar D1?)


----------



## macrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ROBSCIX

 Is the Asus Xonar Essence ST/X warmer than the Xonar D1?

 May I ask also how the lineout differs in sound from the headphone out?

 (PS. Have you ever modded a Xonar D1?)_

 

I have had a d2, d2x, stx and st (I still have an STX and ST (both with lme49720na opamps)

 I dont think the Stx or st are warmer than the d2 or d2x. The trebble could be a bit bright/harsh on the d2/d2x. I thought this was also the case on the stx particularly with standard opamps. Warm as a term to me inferes coloration (I wouldn't describe the ST/STX as colored). 

 The ST is much more listenable to me and with the lme49720na is totally unfatiguing.

 I couldn't listen to the standard STX for more than an hour without fatigue. I changed the opamps on the ST as soon as it arrived so I cant comment on unmodded ST.

 I hope this helps

 Macrog


----------



## forciano

Has anyone tried the OPA827 in the I/V's yet?


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if the turntable doesn't have an amplifier you will not be able to get a usable signal. I doubt it will even register on a line level input. A cassette deck or TT with a preamp will output about 2.4 volts, possibly more if the units has output faders.

 Whatever recording software you are using try and keep the input level between -6 and -3 dB to allow for peaking. This will give you enough headroom to apply any effects you may need to. 
 Are you planning on just copying these over and leaving them or do you want to do some work such as remove noise, bring up the levels...remove pops and clicks?

 The input ADC on the ST is high enough quality to allow you to do this task and get good results._

 

Thanks Rob, this is waaaay down the prioryt list atm. 
 When I get started I may 'chime-in' with a few brief questions. 
 I have this bookmarked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks again!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *forciano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried the OPA827 in the I/V's yet?_

 

Yes, they work very good for I/V on this card.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Rob, this is waaaay down the prioryt list atm. 
 When I get started I may 'chime-in' with a few brief questions. 
 I have this bookmarked 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks again!_

 

I record music all the time and have been recording for many years now.
 I have also converted old cassettes and LP's to digital copies and they take a bit of work if your planning on getting a track that sounds "similar" to something you would hear on a modern CD.
 Back on topic...


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, they work very good for I/V on this card._

 

Cool I might be looking to get some then.


----------



## phusg

For what it's worth I just noticed this in the Foobar 1.0.1 changelog:
  Quote:


 Added a workaround for horribly broken Asus Xonar drivers.


----------



## leeperry

now you're being sarcastic....what's (not) broken about the Xonar drivers (not)?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phusg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For what it's worth I just noticed this in the Foobar 1.0.1 changelog:_

 

I guess it is a good thing they are offering new drivers, soon?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I used Foobar with the Xonars and had no issue with them.
 I wonder which card they are talking about?


----------



## Marantz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess it is a good thing they are offering new drivers, soon?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I used Foobar with the Xonars and had no issue with them.
 I wonder which card they are talking about?_

 


 Can't wait for these new drivers for my st,any idea how soon is soon?


----------



## freestyler

They are referring to the playback problem when GX is enabled (that some people report)


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They are referring to the playback problem when GX is enabled (that some people report)_

 

Why would you enable GX (gaming mode) for music?
 That might do it though, depending on what API you were using for output.
 I tested, KS, ASIO and DS on the ST/STX and had no issues.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marantz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't wait for these new drivers for my st,any idea how soon is soon?_

 

Not sure. The (unreleased) beta seems reasonably stable and there is really no noticable differences unless you use ASIO for the output API in your player. Then the card goes to bit perfect auto sample rate mode and doesn't allow you to add effects, change the volume..etc. What you would expect to happen.
 I will check and see what I can find out.


----------



## forciano

BTW I hope I'm just really dumb and cant find the way to do it. But is there a way to enable dolby headphone through the line out, I already have my own amp and don't want to use the built in amp for obvious reasons.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Unfortunately, No. You can add it to music players and video players though if that is any help.


----------



## pietpara

Hi all,
 I'm new here and I am amazed about the great info you guys have gathered on the ST (and STX for that matter). Unfortunately the information is very disperse and I´ve been reading now for a few days in a row without really feeling I got my answers. Sometimes I feel overwhelemed and more confused.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I just recently bought the ST with H6 to set up my Home Cinema for 5.1. (sorry, I am not a Headphone listener). I plan to buy 4 Dynaudio 122 Audience standing speakers with a 122 Center and possibly a sub. Dynaudios are known for a very neutral but crystal clear sound with great staging. Also, I´d still like to use my High-End stereo audio equipment too (my 2 x 50W Class A pre and poweramp combo.
 With all that I am very interested in modding the opamps on the ST and daughter board

 Some questions I have:
 1) I think I read here I will be able to use the stereo RCAs on the ST for the class A stereo pre-amp, while also having the 5.1 system connected on the H6 daughter board. Is that true?
 2) Are there not any Class A opamps? (Sorry, if this is a stupid question, as I am not an Electrical Engineer) I guess I mean opamps with MOSFETS in stead of bipolar transistors which are known to have the crossover distortion issues giving rise to the less clear and warm sound compared to a Class A or Tube.
 3) Is it correct that with any of the Audio-GDs you have to remove the shieldoff the ST?
 4) The general consensus seems to be that the Audio-GD Earths should be used as the buffer. What is best for the I/Vs I couldn´t really make up, LMEs or also discrete?
 5) Is it recommendable to use the same threesome on each of the H6 daighterboard´s channels? I guess so, if all the 5 speakers are the same for the purpose of making the surround sound truly uniformly surround.
 6) has anyone found a good opamp combo for driving a sub?
 7) Can I connect the daughter boards output directly to the inputs of a 5.1 power amp? It would save me the cost of purchasing a 5.1 pre-amp too, and probably maintain hi-fidelity due to the less components.
 and last but not least
 8) I read some wordings about how difficult it is to place the discrete´s in the HTPC (me having an OrigenAE S16T desktop format). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It would really help if someone could post a picture as to how to do this properly ( I like the insides of my PCs nice and tidy) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry for the barrage of questions. I tried my best to find the answers here but wasn't succesfull enough to remove my doubts. Besides, with so much enthusiast sharing going on, I want to take part and start somewhere.






 to everyone.

 PietPara


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi all,
 I'm new here and I am amazed about the great info you guys have gathered on the ST (and STX for that matter). Unfortunately the information is very disperse and I´ve been reading now for a few days in a row without really feeling I got my answers. Sometimes I feel overwhelemed and more confused.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I just recently bought the ST with H6 to set up my Home Cinema for 5.1. (sorry, I am not a Headphone listener). I plan to buy 4 Dynaudio 122 Audience standing speakers with a 122 Center and possibly a sub. Dynaudios are known for a very neutral but crystal clear sound with great staging. Also, I´d still like to use my High-End stereo audio equipment too (my 2 x 50W Class A pre and poweramp combo.
 With all that I am very interested in modding the opamps on the ST and daughter board

 Some questions I have:
 1) I think I read here I will be able to use the stereo RCAs on the ST for the class A stereo pre-amp, while also having the 5.1 system connected on the H6 daughter board. Is that true?_

 

Yes, you can connect your headphones to the cards 1/4" phon output and the system to the RCA otuputs and just switch between them.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2) Are there not any Class A opamps? (Sorry, if this is a stupid question, as I am not an Electrical Engineer) I guess I mean opamps with MOSFETS in stead of bipolar transistors which are known to have the crossover distortion issues giving rise to the less clear and warm sound compared to a Class A or Tube._

 

 You can bias many opamps to Class A sometimes it improves the signature and others times not so much.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_3) Is it correct that with any of the Audio-GDs you have to remove the shieldoff the ST?_

 

Well yes, the Audio-GD discrete opamps are quite large in comparison to regular chip opamps. With some chip opamps on adapters you will also have to remove the shielding.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_4) The general consensus seems to be that the Audio-GD Earths should be used as the buffer. What is best for the I/Vs I couldn´t really make up, LMEs or also discrete?_

 

The audio-GD earth is very Neutral so make excellent I/V converters.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_5) Is it recommendable to use the same threesome on each of the H6 daighterboard´s channels? I guess so, if all the 5 speakers are the same for the purpose of making the surround sound truly uniformly surround._

 

Well you can if you want your rears to sound like the fronts etc..
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_6) has anyone found a good opamp combo for driving a sub?_

 

The Center/sub channels have a seperate opamps for each channel I/V so you can use a different opamps for each. There are a few opamps that sound better for bass then others.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_7) Can I connect the daughter boards output directly to the inputs of a 5.1 power amp? It would save me the cost of purchasing a 5.1 pre-amp too, and probably maintain hi-fidelity due to the less components._

 

It would depend on the amplifiers inputs as the ST offers line level outputs for the RCA outs. 
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and last but not least
 8) I read some wordings about how difficult it is to place the discrete´s in the HTPC (me having an OrigenAE S16T desktop format). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It would really help if someone could post a picture as to how to do this properly ( I like the insides of my PCs nice and tidy) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sorry for the barrage of questions. I tried my best to find the answers here but wasn't succesfull enough to remove my doubts. Besides, with so much enthusiast sharing going on, I want to take part and start somewhere.






 to everyone.

 PietPara_

 

Buy the extension cables with the discrete as they allow you more options for positioning. When I tested out those units I found it easier to put the card in the lowest slot tot he bottom. Then put some anti-static medium on the bootom of the casse then allow the opamps to rest on that. However, if you needed a more permanant installation there are other ways to go about it.
 Hope that helps.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unfortunately, No. You can add it to music players and video players though if that is any help._

 

Yea I have used a couple of them in the past for music mostly. 
 I guess if I miss CMSS-3D that much I will have to buy a second audio card just to get that functionality.
 Guess I will wait for your bravura review Rob.


----------



## pietpara

Thanks a lot Robscix!

 To summarize and converge:
 - Class A opamps are possible but require biasing and bias we cannot control from the ST.
 Question, why would a biased Class A opamp not inherently be better than unbiased if crossover distortion is present?
 - So, Audio-GD Earths as I/Vs is good and as buffer too?
 - I'd indeed like all speakers to have the same 'signature' since in a surround system I'd hate to hear a sound going back to front or left to right changing its sound color. I've seen people with different center as left right speakers and that's just sounds horrific.
 - Could you advise on a specific good bass opamp?
  Quote:


 It would depend on the amplifiers inputs as the ST offers line level outputs for the RCA outs. 
 

Could you elaborate please? I am unfamiliar with the term "line level outputs" and won't know what to look for in the power-amps inputs.

 I appreciate the help.
 PietPara


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks a lot Robscix!

 To summarize and converge:
 - Class A opamps are possible but require biasing and bias we cannot control from the ST.
 Question, why would a biased Class A opamp not inherently be better than unbiased if crossover distortion is present?
 - So, Audio-GD Earths as I/Vs is good and as buffer too?
 - I'd indeed like all speakers to have the same 'signature' since in a surround system I'd hate to hear a sound going back to front or left to right changing its sound color. I've seen people with different center as left right speakers and that's just sounds horrific.
 - Could you advise on a specific good bass opamp?_

 

You can build the biasing circuit into an opamp adapter. There are various ways to accmplish the biasing but many people simply use a resistor to provide the biasing current to the opamp. Easy way to do it is just get a normal opamp socket and add the resistor. Place the unit between your cards socket and the opamp. You got a class A biased opamp.
 However, this can improve some opamps for sound signature but on others it can degrade the sound quality. I recently purchased some components and opamps to do some class-A testing so maybe I will get to it and let you know what I find. I will drop you a PM with some pics and details.

 There are a few guys around that use the Earths for I/V but use another unit for the buffer. You can use the same unit for the buffer but if you use the same unit for both I/V and buffer the negative aspects of the sound signature can compound and produce a signature you might not like. That being said it depends on the unit. 
 To note, the Moon will not work for the I/V as it is unstable without some circuit modifications.
 I had always liked the OPA2227 for a bass opamp.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could you elaborate please? I am unfamiliar with the term "line level outputs" and won't know what to look for in the power-amps inputs.

 I appreciate the help.
 PietPara_

 

Line level, is just a term for the signal I/O levels for consumer gear. There are actually two values that can be called line level one for consumer gear and one for recording gear. Don't worry about that though.
 The idea is the audio gear is all built to have the same I/O levels, making the device all compatible with everythng else.
 So, you can connect the ST to a HT receiver, amplifier, pre-amplifier..etc You can connect a CD player, tape deck, mini Disc to the inputs etc. Many people think the audio section of a PC is somehow different then other audio gear. Not so, it is just another line level audio device that can be connected to other line level gear you have. A normal HT receiver would work if that is what your looking for.
 Hope that makes sense!


----------



## pietpara

Yes, I understand perfectly on all fronts! 
 It will be interesting to see your findings with Class A. I always thought that Class A by definition can only be done with MOSFETS. I have to investigate now.

 Furthermore, it sounds like the direct connection of the ST outputs to the power amp (bypassing a pre-amp) is not gonna work. From your explanation, I understand that the out of a pre-amp (as input to the power amp) would be of higher level than the standard "line levels", especially since this level also drives the volume. Probably you will hear something but the volume loevel will be very low. I guess I can just give it a try but am afraid that due to an impedance mismatch I might damage the Essence ST or the power amp´s input.
 Could I damage anything by trying?

 Anyway, ideally I would have liked to be able to directly connect the ST´s daughter board 5.1 outputs to a 5.1 power amp, so as not to have to purcahse a 5.1 HT receiver, since all HT receiver functionality is already present on the ST, so sort of a waste of money. I have my eyes on a great 5.1 power-amp from Rotel, I can purchase second hand.






 Robscix
 PietPara


----------



## mojave

The ST's line level outputs are the same as a preamp. You can connect directly to an amplifier, which I do.

 Just to clarify, the H6 card is for the side/rear surrounds, center, and subwoofer. The ST has both stereo RCA outputs and a 1/4" headphone output. The stereo RCA outputs will go to the mains.

 If you only have 5.1 in your room, you can use J. River Media Center and use two of the unused surround channels as another zone. You could then play music in both the room with your computer and in another room by connecting a two channel amp to the other zone.

 Edit: By the way, there are no distance settings available with the ST's drivers for your speakers. I also use J. River Media Center and can set distances/levels for all speakers and it will work for music & movies. I still use the bass management in the ST drivers.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pietpara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Anyway, ideally I would have liked to be able to directly connect the ST´s daughter board 5.1 outputs to a 5.1 power amp, so as not to have to purcahse a 5.1 HT receiver, since all HT receiver functionality is already present on the ST, so sort of a waste of money. I have my eyes on a great 5.1 power-amp from Rotel, I can purchase second hand._

 

This is exactly what I had in mind from the outset....

 If at all possible I wanted to buy discrete parts for speaker/headphone amplification and avoid an AVR altogether.
 Which means I'd prolly also need a video switcher, plus some way to stuff it all into my HEPC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The D2audio stuff looked really great, alas it doesn't look like other mobo OEM's are picking it up, apart from the anaemic sparkle card.


----------



## pietpara

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The ST's line level outputs are the same as a preamp. You can connect directly to an amplifier, which I do.

 Just to clarify, the H6 card is for the side/rear surrounds, center, and subwoofer. The ST has both stereo RCA outputs and a 1/4" headphone output. The stereo RCA outputs will go to the mains.

 If you only have 5.1 in your room, you can use J. River Media Center and use two of the unused surround channels as another zone. You could then play music in both the room with your computer and in another room by connecting a two channel amp to the other zone.

 Edit: By the way, there are no distance settings available with the ST's drivers for your speakers. I also use J. River Media Center and can set distances/levels for all speakers and it will work for music & movies. I still use the bass management in the ST drivers._

 

Thanks for clarifying a lot. So, I can hookup my ST directly to my stereo poweramp to give that I try.
 And on your EDIT, damn I just realise that indeed you cannot adjust speaker distance if your not using 7.1 in the Xonar Audio Center. There is a speaker shifter panel, but only for 7.1 speaker setup. How stupid is that? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I don't know J. River Media Center, but can have a look at it.


----------



## Marantz

Any news on the new driver?


----------



## MS3

Hi guys
 Quick question - which one is "better" to buy ST, or STX?
 I don't want to read 90 pages of this topic


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marantz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any news on the new driver?_

 

Based on what I have seen and heard, it should be close to release.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MS3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys
 Quick question - which one is "better" to buy ST, or STX?
 I don't want to read 90 pages of this topic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Depends on what you are after. Some say they hear a difference and other say not so much. The ST offers the H6 option also for surround sound.


----------



## MS3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Depends on what you are after. Some say they hear a difference and other say not so much. The ST offers the H6 option also for surround sound._

 

Hi...thanks
 I have poor speakers system (Logitech Z-3e)...but I don't have plans to upgrade them.
 Mostly the sound card will be used for my AH-D7000, so I doń't care about H6 too much.
 Which one do you prefer? I know that ST has better clock...but older bus...hmm


----------



## ROBSCIX

You have to decide for yourself based on your needs.


----------



## MS3

Ok 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 let me ask you something else
 Is STX better in any aspect at all?


----------



## Marantz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Based on what I have seen and heard, it should be close to release._

 

That's great news,can't wait to try them out.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MS3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 let me ask you something else
 Is STX better in any aspect at all?_

 

They have different signatures I find.

 Maybe you should wait and see how the Sennheiser/Xonar turns out.
 The Xonar Xense...


----------



## wali

STX makes sense, separate power source rather than motherboard circuitry.

 I have not heard ST but I bought STX for that reason.


----------



## audionewbieyao

Wow.. Xonar Xense?!!

 Did a quick google... looks golden and shiny shiny... nice one...


----------



## garbulky

I am about to buy an essence STX or an ST. A few burning questions affecting my purchase decision. I am going to be using an Emotiva UPA-2 2X amplifier for my axiom speakers when they come. This amplifier does not have a volume control and requires a pre-amp. Will the essence be able to act as this pre-amp? AFAIK the UPA-2 requires 1.4V to to be driven to maximum power with an input impedance of 47k ohms.
 Second question: Can I use the H6 add-on board with the STX as well? My impression is that the H6 is PCI-e only right? That's the reason I want to go for the ST as I have only one free PCI-e slot available on my current mother board.
 Third question: If I buy the ST, will PCI slots be obsolete in about 3-5 years when I upgrade my motherboard? Is it on its way out already?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audionewbieyao* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow.. Xonar Xense?!!

 Did a quick google... looks golden and shiny shiny... nice one... 








_

 

Cool huh? I mentioned the card in the last page, I guess people missed the reference. There is still a great deal of information that is missing from the public released blurbs. Such as no official specifications..etc.
 I am hoping to get some better pics and actual card specs very soon.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wali* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_STX makes sense, separate power source rather than motherboard circuitry.

 I have not heard ST but I bought STX for that reason._

 

Would you agree with that as the primary reason for an STX over the ST Rob?


----------



## Marantz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would you agree with that as the primary reason for an STX over the ST Rob?_

 

The st has the power connector on it too,the cards are nearly the same apart from the st's clock and the st is pci and has the expansion header and the stx is pci express,i have the st and love it.


----------



## garbulky

post deleted


----------



## jalyst

Sorry this is way OT so moderator please feel free to move...
 But I've been investigating in-depth which of these two DH adapters I should get (may yet buy from diff retailers)
AudioCubes.com - JVC SU-DH1 Surround Headphone Adapter - SU-DH1 -
Astro Gaming | Professional Gaming Equipment | MixAmp™

 And I've just had an epiphany...
 Shouldn't a HTPC set-up with a decent card & the right software be able to emulate "all" the functions of both these devices, 
 And do it with more flexibility and better quality?!

 Sure they can be useful where one doesn't have easy access to a Windows machine that can do all the Dolby formats.
 But in a living room where one already has a HTPC running Windows (ytd whether some of it is possible in Linux) they're entirely redundant.

 Wouldn't you agree?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry this is way OT so moderator please feel free to move...
 But I've been investigating in-depth which of these two DH adapters I should get (may yet buy from diff retailers)
AudioCubes.com - JVC SU-DH1 Surround Headphone Adapter - SU-DH1 -
Astro Gaming | Professional Gaming Equipment | MixAmp™

 And I've just had an epiphany...
 Shouldn't a HTPC set-up with a decent card & the right software be able to emulate "all" the functions of both these devices, 
 And do it with more flexibility and better quality?!

 Sure they can be useful where one doesn't have easy access to a Windows machine that can do all the Dolby formats.
 But in a living room where one already has a HTPC running Windows (ytd whether some of it is possible in Linux) they're entirely redundant.

 Wouldn't you agree?_

 

Yes, many use receivers for routing features and amplification.
 a good HTPC would have all the features of a receiver, except maybe the routing and the amplification as the PC offers line level signal I/O. I was going to buy a receiver but figured why bother? 
 Just for amplification? I am working with a 6 channel class-D amplifer instead and using the PC. All the latest formats can be handled either with add-in hardware or coding.
 Not sure if that is what you were getting at but, hope it helps.


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I was going to buy a receiver but figured why bother?_

 

Because of HD audio? 


 That wasn't a rethorical question, I can't really much info on how Essence/Forte/Bravura behave with bluray playback.

 Any experience on that?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because of HD audio? 


 That wasn't a rethorical question, I can't really much info on how Essence/Forte/Bravura behave with bluray playback.

 Any experience on that?_

 

No, that is still no reason. There are two cards avialable right now that can handle HD audio. The HTHD 7.1 and the HDAV 1.3. These cards both handle blueray audio standards such as Dolby Digital plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HDMA and pass it through analog. No other cards will do this out of the box...

 They both work fine with those formats using a simple BD-ROM...
 You can still go the receiver route as many of them sound great. I was just getting at the point that reasons to use them are getting smaller and smaller. PC gear handles many features and formats that used to only be available through a HT receiver. I will still probably get one down the road but it would be for routing or amplification.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, many use receivers for routing features and amplification.
 a good HTPC would have all the features of a receiver, except maybe the routing and the amplification as the PC offers line level signal I/O. I was going to buy a receiver but figured why bother? 
 Just for amplification? I am working with a 6 channel class-D amplifer instead and using the PC. All the latest formats can be handled either with add-in hardware or coding.
 Not sure if that is what you were getting at but, hope it helps._

 

Yeah I'm the same, 
 I think the only things I'll end-up with outside of my HTPC are; amp for spkrs (maybe cans too), and switching gear.

 I guess what I was wanting to be sure of is....
 With the right sound-card & software, can one do everything these devices are capable of?

 After looking at both closely I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. 
 But I'm just concerned I'm missing something!


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, that is still no reason. There are two cards avialable right now that can handle HD audio. The HTHD 7.1 and the HDAV 1.3. These cards both handle blueray audio standards such as Dolby Digital plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HDMA and pass it through analog. * No other cards will do this out of the box...*_

 

Not totally O/T because this is relevant to the ST as well: 
 did you actually try to watch any bluray movies during the Forte or STX reviews and it didn't work or are you going by the manufacturer specs?

 Just to make it clear, I am not talking about bitstreaming but listening to the movie with the headphones.


----------



## jalyst

He means that they're the only two cards that can do BD standard audio.
 I was in an in-depth convo with a Linux dev last yr & he seemed to think it wasn't out of the realm of possibility for the ST/X to be PAP compliant
Xonar HDAV1.3 deluxe V Essence ST 'deluxe' - AVS Forum
 I'll be getting back to this post very soon......


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He means that they're the only two cards that can do BD standard audio.
 I was in an in-depth convo with a Linux dev last yr & he seemed to think it wasn't out of the realm of possibility for the ST/X to be PAP compliant
Xonar HDAV1.3 deluxe V Essence ST 'deluxe' - AVS Forum
 I'll be getting back to this post very soon......_

 


 Very interesting thread over at AVS.

 Let's see if ROB has any words about the new BETA drivers from ASUS. Maybe they did implement PAP.


----------



## jalyst

I'm yet to chase further, the guy wanted me to test a few things, will be picking-up again soon. 
 ST/X dvr not being being fully PAP compliant may turn out to be entirely deliberate and unfixable, so don't get your hopes up!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not totally O/T because this is relevant to the ST as well: 
 did you actually try to watch any bluray movies during the Forte or STX reviews and it didn't work or are you going by the manufacturer specs?

 Just to make it clear, I am not talking about bitstreaming but listening to the movie with the headphones._

 

When I talk about these cards it is from first hand experience. I have tested both for HD audio compliance. If a card does not have PAP compliance such in the case od the STX/ST it will still give you the audio but it will downsample it to 16/48...
 With these 'HDMI" cards the audio will be full resolution to what the studios wanted.
 Yes, just listening to the soundcard using headphones or amp and cans.


 Does that answer your question?

 Edit:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very interesting thread over at AVS.

 Let's see if ROB has any words about the new BETA drivers from ASUS. Maybe they did implement PAP._

 

There is always informaiton about hacks and possible work arounds. Which is why I said "out of the box" 
 AFAIK, the drivers will not be PAP compliant for bluray as that is usually researved for cards meant for HT with HDMI routines and hardware.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm yet to chase further, the guy wanted me to test a few things, will be picking-up again soon. 
 ST/X dvr not being being fully PAP compliant may turn out to be entirely deliberate and unfixable, so don't get your hopes up!_

 

I just don't think it is a priority with these cards as they were originally meant for headphones. The ST offers surround over analog and S/pdif but no high resolution digital such as HDMI. The ST and I would say the HDAV 1.3 are aimed at different user types
 There may be ways to workaroudn it by chaning the audio on the fly as I have heard about some doing but it is still doing a bunch of other stuff to get compatibility that others cards offer out of the box.

 If you are into into true support from Blue Ray audio standards such as Dolby Digital PLus, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HDMA I would recommend that you go for a HDMI compatible card as they still allow these standards to be available through analog.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just don't think it is a priority with these cards as they were originally meant for headphones. The ST offers surround over analog and S/pdif but no high resolution digital such as HDMI. The ST and I would say the HDAV 1.3 are aimed at different user types
 There may be ways to workaroudn it by chaning the audio on the fly as I have heard about some doing but it is still doign abunch of other stuff to get compatibility that others cards offer out of the box._

 

It's not a "biggy" for me personally, as any HD content like BR will simply be ripped & transcoded and sound just as good.
 T'was more a curiosity thing which I intend to chase when/if I have time...

 Any bitstreaming of HD content will most likely not be done, but if I need to, the functionality is there in my Core i3-530.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's not a "biggy" for me personally, as any HD content like BR will simply be ripped & transcoded and sound just as good.
 T'was more a curiosity thing which I intend to chase when/if I have time...

 Any bitstreaming of HD content will most likely not be done, but if I need to, the functionality is there in my Core i3-530._

 

Well that is what I mean, if you are ripping and transcoding..etc then having this support on your card is a moot point. It is not only bitstreaming but the cards decode to analog which is a great features for many. If that is also not something you care about then these HDMI cards are not really what you need.
 Are you still torn between the ST Deluxe and the HDAV 1.3?


----------



## jalyst

Oh no, I got the ST Deluxe ages ago....

 I just got interested in the possibility of PAP via analogue-out, as it works for the HDAV1.3.
 HDMI/digital has nothing to do with what I'm talking about... 

 But it's all very low priority as I already have a working solution.

 night.


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does that answer your question?_

 


 Indeed it does, thank you.

 Please understand that I didn't mean to sound a smartass or anything. I read both your reviews (Forte and STX) and since they didn't mention anything about bluray playback, I wanted to confirm.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh no, I got the ST Deluxe ages ago....

 I just got interested in the possibility of PAP via analogue-out, as it works for the HDAV1.3.
 HDMI/digital has nothing to do with what I'm talking about... 

 But it's all very low priority as I already have a working solution.

 night._

 

Yes, I thought you had the ST. The hardware differences between the ST and the HDAV are many. While HDMI and digital has nothing to do with what your talking about in one sense, it does because it is all related to what you're after. DRM is a bugger and Vista and the HDMI technology as a whole are wrapped up in it. Personally, I was very surprised either card ended up allowing these audio specs to be sent to analog outputs because of DRM. 

 To note, originally the HDAV 1.3 would downsample to 16/48 as would other cards for analog but it was fixed along time ago. If you find any options for these audio standards on other cards, aside from ripping and transcoding them, let me know. If I find anything I will do the same.


----------



## mojave

Because I rip Blu-rays with lossless FLAC for the audio, i don't have to worry about PAP or downsampling with the Essence ST. Have you read this thread at AVSForum: Is a PAP relevant at all for practically any listener and/or source material??


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed it does, thank you.

 Please understand that I didn't mean to sound a smartass or anything. I read both your reviews (Forte and STX) and since they didn't mention anything about bluray playback, I wanted to confirm._

 

No,no I didn't think you were sounding smartass..or anything like that.
 I just asked if it answer your question as I was unsure if I was explaining it properly.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Because I rip Blu-rays with lossless FLAC for the audio, i don't have to worry about PAP or downsampling with the Essence ST. Have you read this thread at AVSForum: Is a PAP relevant at all for practically any listener and/or source material??_

 

Sure, as I pointed out there are always different ways to get what you want for A/V, if you want to take the time ripping and/or transcoding. If you are into Blu-ray though it is nice to just be able to pop in the disk and away you go. I think many still consider this a niche market for PC...


----------



## taiyoyuden

Robscix, did you sleeve the h6 connector cable or did it come like that?


----------



## ROBSCIX

The H6 production model has a ribbon cable.


----------



## taiyoyuden

But... I want it like yours =o


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taiyoyuden* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But... I want it like yours =o_

 

Mine? The one I have uses a ribbon cable similar to the ones on the HDAV 1.3
 . Oh you mean the pics in that sneak peak I did? That was a Eng sample that was used for the sneak peak, it was promptly returned.

 To do this to your cable is not that hard just pull the ribbon apart so you have 2-3 wires per bundle then add the sleeving over top. Use some heat shrink to tighten the end of the sleeving and make it look solid and professional.

 Here is a tutorial for you but I take no responsibility for you ruining your cable!
Sleeving tutorial


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh no, I got the ST Deluxe ages ago...._

 

I mean to ask you, you guys have the H6 where you live now?
 They still seem a bit hard to find by some but they are out there.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To note, originally the HDAV 1.3 would downsample to 16/48 as would other cards for analog but it was fixed along time ago. If you find any options for these audio standards on other cards, aside from ripping and transcoding them, let me know. If I find anything I will do the same._

 

I do intend to reinvestigate, but it's low on the list right now...
 If I do find anything you'll be amongst the 1st to know, as you've often been very helpful to me!

 Cheers


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean to ask you, you guys have the H6 where you live now?
 They still seem a bit hard to find by some but they are out there._

 


 We did, I don't know if we still do now...
 I know they ordered a lot less H6 than they ordered ST for some reason.

 I recall someone complaining about not being able to find it about 1mth ago.
 So maybe it's already sold out and they haven't bothered to order a new batch.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah I'm the same, 
 I think the only things I'll end-up with outside of my HTPC are; amp for spkrs (maybe cans too), and switching gear.

 I guess what I was wanting to be sure of is....
 With the right sound-card & software, can one do everything these devices are capable of?

 After looking at both closely I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. 
 But I'm just concerned I'm missing something!_

 

Anyone? Thank-you.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Pretty much yes. There may be some new standards available on high end receivers that have not made it to soundcards yet.


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With the right sound-card & software, can one do everything these devices are capable of?_

 

I also see the ST + H6 as a competitor to HD AV receivers. Personally I would be looking into the support for DRC for night-time listening without having to constantly fiddle with the volume. I'm not convinced that the DRC provided in software by AC3filter is as good as what I could get from a high-end AV receiver, but then I haven't done much research into the topic.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phusg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also see the ST + H6 as a competitor to HD AV receivers. Personally I would be looking into the support for DRC for night-time listening without having to constantly fiddle with the volume. I'm not convinced that the DRC provided in software by AC3filter is as good as what I could get from a high-end AV receiver, but then I haven't done much research into the topic._

 

The ST has SVM, which is similar to DRC...have you not tried this option?
 Although I don't think it would give you quite what you're after.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pretty much yes. There may be some new standards available on high end receivers that have not made it to soundcards yet._

 

Yeah but not on those two devices right?
 Can you elaborate a little on what you mean by "new standards"?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Just new standards, such as the new Pro-Logic IIz...that is available on receivers but currently I have not seen it on any consumer soundcards.
 Usually what is available on a receiver will end up in the soundcards sooner or later as those are the current audio standards.


----------



## jalyst

k cool, yeah that stuff can often be added retrospectively via software to be supported by cards etc.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Could be, most of the current standards are added to soundcards through software not hardware.


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We did, I don't know if we still do now...
 I know they ordered a lot less H6 than they ordered ST for some reason.

 I recall someone complaining about not being able to find it about 1mth ago.
 So maybe it's already sold out and they haven't bothered to order a new batch._

 

The marketing of these cards in the Netherlands is ridiculous. Asus don't even list the ST on asus.nl, let alone the H6 daughter card. There are a couple of retailers selling the ST, but to this day *not a single one selling the H6 card!* 

 There are a couple of German retailers that list it, but including international shipping that would cost me 55 euros just for the H6. If it was up to the quality of the ST and had a properly shielded interconnect and shielding for the opamps then I might consider it reasonable value. As it is all I can say is: *Asus, I'm not buying until you sort this out!*


----------



## jalyst

Yeah its def. been a real after-thought, and they've made zilch effort worldwide in marketing/distribution.
 Quite disappointing really... 

 I'm glad I managed to get hold of my H6, but agree that QC is not quite up to the same standard as the ST.


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The ST has SVM, which is similar to DRC...have you not tried this option?
 Although I don't think it would give you quite what you're after._

 

I don't actually have an ST yet, as my previous post probably explains. If this Smart Volume does what they say it does:







 then it could well be what I'm after. Does anyone have any experience with it? Does it only work properly with games?


----------



## ROBSCIX

It runs similar to what your after. Boosting lower sound and cutting louder sounds.
 I think it is actually designed for games. The gaming cards have similar features...


----------



## mojave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just new standards, such as the new Pro-Logic IIz...that is available on receivers but currently I have not seen it on any consumer soundcards.
 Usually what is available on a receiver will end up in the soundcards sooner or later as those are the current audio standards._

 

Pro Logic IIz upmixes to 9.1. You won't find it on any soundcards until there is a 10 channel soundcard released.

 The H6 still hasn't been released in the USA as far as I can tell. I purchased an H6 from someone with the HDAV Deluxe 1.3 card.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, I know all about it. The point was features he may want on a receiver....
 not so much the feature itself. It was just an example.


----------



## jalyst

Doesn't mean one would have to buy a 10 channel card per-say...
 The functionality could very well be enabled in software.....


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well one of the main features of IIZ was the front channels have high and low channels giveing better imaging for movies and music. I think in few mores years you will see this..


----------



## jalyst

Hmm, well if that's one aspect of Pro Logic IIz then I guess it'll have to come as part of totally revised card. 
 As I doubt they'll allow partially implemented Pro Logic IIz via software, for cards that can't do this? ...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well, if you could move the side channels to the fronts as some receiver is seen allowed you to Biamp a set of fronts or have the front low and highs as in IIZ.
 Anyway this is getting a bit off topic. Point being new audio features are usually seen on receivers and consumer gear first then move to soundcards ..etc later on.
 There is not too much that is on receivers that you cannot find on a soudcard aside from the routing and amplification.


----------



## jalyst

Oh so you think that it may well be possible to add retrospectively via s'ware?
 I realise what your main point was but you're right, getting way OT, I'll be quiet now


----------



## pietpara

Hi,
 although not sure if this is a "headphone only" forum, I'd still like to share my air experiences.
 I recently purchased a set of 4 Dynaudio Audience 122's and its complement center. I have been listening to one pair of the Dynaudios over my audio equipment: Rotel RCD-1072 with Duson (previous Audio Analyse mentioned here) Class A pre- and power (50W) amps, but also over my Essence ST with stock opamps.

 I was astonished about the enormous clarity of the ST over the Rotel. Not that the Rotel is bad, I am very happy with it. Since the Dynaudio speakers are very neutral, but detailed and crystal clear, the ST does have a notch of brightness that could become fatiguing over time.
 In any case, I am considering to try out some opamps, also on my Rotel (stock with OPA2277 opamps). For the Rotel I'd like to try a pair of Bursons and for the ST I am not yet finished with reading these forums, but I think I will start with some IC opamps, just to start somewhere.

 I do have a question though. I was wondering what your opnions are with respect to ripping CD audio. Would it really be a noticable difference when I rip the CDs using the Rotel and the Digital output to my PC with a Xonar D2/PM Digital input? Or is it just as well ripping directly from the DVD player in the PC? Anyone with experience in this?

 cheers 
 PietPara


----------



## ROBSCIX

Why don't you just use your PC's optical drive to rip them?
 Use a good application and your set.
 You can set up an external CD player, link it up to a card using digital...etc.
 Seems like the long way aorund if you get my meaning.


----------



## pietpara

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you just use your PC's optical drive to rip them?
 Use a good application and your set.
 You can set up an external CD player, link it up to a card using digital...etc.
 Seems like the long way aorund if you get my meaning._

 

I know it's the long way, but I wonder if using the Rotel's CD drive system and possibly its digital electronics is better than that of the PC's cheapo plastic optical drive. I mean, why would they otherwise build super expensive CD players with super duper drive systems like the $20.000 Wadia's or TEAC VRDS players? I also sometimes think all that is just marketing BS, but never were sure.
 Basically it comes down to the question whether a simple PC optical drive rips just as bit perfect as a more expensive audio CD player.

 What do you suggest is a good application for Ripping? I "always" use Nero or just WMP.

 thanks


----------



## ROBSCIX

Providing there is no issues within the mechanism and the driver isn't overly jittery, I seriously doubt there would be any difference between rips.

 I would suggest EAC or others that allow you to correct any ripping errors and present you with a exact copy of the data.


----------



## kumaiti

Got the Essence ST!! Can't wait to get back from work to try it.

 Just for the records, here in Moscow it is about $15 cheaper than the STX. I would guess it is for "marketing" reasons.

 Many thanks to my wife who decided: "enough is enough, I will get this one!!" after weeks of "should I buy this or that?".


----------



## ROBSCIX

Post your impressions after you have had a chance to test it out.


----------



## kumaiti

Here are my preliminary impressions after testing with a run-of-the-mill Creative HQ1500 and an old AKG 271 studio a co-worker lent to me:

 1. the sound is GREAT on both headphones.
 2. it works as I intended regarding the xbox and the analog input. Too bad it can't take any kind of digital input, let alone Dolby Digital, it would have been perfect.
 3. I can't hear a lot of difference between the Creative and the AKG headphones... Guess I don't have as golden ears as a lot of people here.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, these cards sound quite good with some good cans. Actually they sound excellent in surround sound also.
 The S/Pdif input would have been a great addition also.
 You haven't had the card that long so give the card a chance to settle, some suggest the opamps and caps "burn-in" after awhile, some say no. 

 Enjoy your card.


----------



## riderforever

A bit off topics but, is there any soundcard with a s/pdif IN accepting Dolby Digital 5.1 on it?


----------



## jalyst

You mean that do SPDIF-in for Dolby/DTS encoded content & subsequently decode it?
 That is exactly what we were talking about earlier in this thread...

 I want it so my HTPC can emulate all functionality of adapters like the Mixamp or Victor SU-DH1.
 Only older cards I believe, I asked Rob for specific models a little while ago.

 From memory the creative audigy range, & nVdia nforce-based motherboards might've had that ability.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Off hand, Creative cards, some Audigy 2, Audigy 4, X-fi...the features may have been axed in Vista,Win7 for DRM.


----------



## krisno

I need answer to this. I am using a modded X-can v2 + AKG K 701.

 I have the offer of getting either the D2 or D1 on the cheap (both used). I am only going to play stereo and I feel that tube amps somewhat massage the sound, so you dont get all the details anways.

 Should i get the D1 or D2? The D2 is prices 2x the D1.. again its only for stereo use. The opamp and DAC is a little better on the D2? 

 Can anyone comment on the sound on the D1 vs D2? Is the D2 more musical? warmer? woody sound? or do they sound about the same??? I want a honest opinion on this!

 Thanks guys! great!

 Kris

 (I am passing on the ST because of price and somewhat too much details i heard)


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Off hand, Creative cards, some Audigy 2, Audigy 4, X-fi...the features may have been axed in Vista,Win7 for DRM._

 

So you reckon it's unlikely one could run a 2nd card (one of these) that'd be used for SPDIF-in Dolby/DTS decode in Win7?
 I guess none of them even have dvrs that are compatible w/Win7, guess you could use compatibility mode though?
 This is just a last resort if it turns out AC3 aren't still actively working on a filter that takes care of DTS/Dolby decode for any sound-card digi-in.


----------



## kumaiti

The only card I can confirm 100% to be able to receive Dolby Digital is the Audigy 2 ZS notebook using Daniel K's drivers. I have it, tested and it works though I had serious clipping when routing the sound to the headphone.

 I can also confirm that "Dolby Digital Decoding" doesn't work with stock Creative drivers.


 Also, a little perk I noticed: once you set the card to "Dolby Digital Decoding" on the digital input, it will ONLY accept that input. If the input changes to PCM, it won't decode it unlike the JVC and AstroAMP units.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is there any soundcard with a s/pdif IN accepting Dolby Digital 5.1 on it?_

 

it was thoroughly discussed on doom9 IIRC, and consumer grade gear is really not supposed to capture DD/DTS over S/PDIF...you're only supposed to decode it, capturing it would be seen as evil piracy


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only card I can confirm 100% to be able to receive Dolby Digital is the Audigy 2 ZS notebook using Daniel K's drivers. I have it, tested and it works though I had serious clipping when routing the sound to the headphone._

 

So it only decodes DD 5.1, what about DTS?
 Aren't some of the other Audigy cards a little more capable?

 Forgotten what clipping is...
 Isn't that when sound gets distorted because the volume's too loud?

 Will these K's dvrs work on some of the other Audigy cards?
 More importantly will they work in Win7! (compatibility mode I guess?)

 This is pushing my luck... 
 But do you know if there's any ALSA dvrs being developed for these older cards?

  Quote:


 I can also confirm that "Dolby Digital Decoding" doesn't work with stock Creative drivers. 
 

Great, so it doesn't work with stock dvrs when they advertised it as one of the cards features, why am I not surprised, sheesh! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Also, a little perk I noticed: once you set the card to "Dolby Digital Decoding" on the digital input, it will ONLY accept that input. If the input changes to PCM, it won't decode it unlike the JVC and AstroAMP units. 
 

I'm not quite getting what you're saying here, could you perhaps rephrase?

 Thanks!
 Sorry for getting so OT everyone!


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it was thoroughly discussed on doom9 IIRC, and consumer grade gear is really not supposed to capture DD/DTS over S/PDIF...you're only supposed to decode it, capturing it would be seen as evil piracy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Will def. be posting there along with the AC3 forums, thanks!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you reckon it's unlikely one could run a 2nd card (one of these) that'd be used for SPDIF-in Dolby/DTS decode in Win7?
 I guess none of them even have dvrs that are compatible w/Win7, guess you could use compatibility mode though?
 This is just a last resort if it turns out AC3 aren't still actively working on a filter that takes care of DTS/Dolby decode for any sound-card digi-in._

 

I run multiple cards all the time. Some may have issues, what I was worried about is Win7 preventing the DD/DTS input over S/Pdif.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I run multiple cards all the time. Some may have issues, what I was worried about is Win7 preventing the DD/DTS input over S/Pdif._

 

Yeah that's what I'm worried about, plus the fact that these older cards dvrs may not be suitable for Win7 (have zilch experience with vista/win7).


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So it only decodes DD 5.1, what about DTS?
 Aren't some of the other Audigy cards a little more capable?

 Forgotten what clipping is...
 Isn't that when sound gets distorted because the volume's too loud?

 Will these K's dvrs work on some of the other Audigy cards?
 More importantly will they work in Win7! (compatibility mode I guess?)

 This is pushing my luck... 
 But do you know if there's any ALSA dvrs being developed for these older cards?



 Great, so it doesn't work with stock dvrs when they advertised it as one of the cards features, why am I not surprised, sheesh! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







 I'm not quite getting what you're saying here, could you perhaps rephrase?

 Thanks!
 Sorry for getting so OT everyone! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Most of this clarified via PM, thanks kumaiti!


----------



## jalyst

...


----------



## krisno

Robscix - alt of people say that opamps are tailored to the ciruit and therefore even expensive opamps might make the sound worse.

 If I wanted to try to change the one on the Xonar D1 card. Do you have any recommendations? OPA 2134? which will work i mean?


----------



## ROBSCIX

You mean the circuit is tailored to the opamp. That is true to some extent, in many cases the circuits are generic and will work with a wide spectrum of opamps. If you really wanted to get things perfect you would further modify the circuit to dial in the opamps perfectly. The OPA2134 should work fine on that card...


----------



## krisno

With your AKGs - how is the difference between D2 and d1?.... and D2 and ST... the latter two sound about the same?

 I did buy the D1, kinda of regretting it vs the D2. but i guess they have the same type of sound. D2 a little more detailed...


----------



## kumaiti

Little issue detected: did anyone notice that no DSP like Dolby Headphone work with Windows Media Player??


----------



## jalyst

I imagine DH built into Xonar cards would only work with Dolby encoded content wouldn't it?
 Media player used shouldn't matter....


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Little issue detected: did anyone notice that no DSP like Dolby Headphone work with Windows Media Player??_

 

Dolby headphone will not work if the windows sound control panel advanced setting for the speakers is set to a samplerate higher than 48KHz. It works with 44.1KHz & 48KHz but not 96 KHz or 192KHz. DH works for me with WMP if set properly for it.


----------



## jalyst

boy was I way off....


----------



## kumaiti

Tnx, Germanium. 

 I suspected something like that but I thought it was a problem only with 192KHz. I changed to 96 and still it didn't work, so I posted.


----------



## garbulky

So I received the ST yesterday and I have to say. I am confused like crazy! I have a Xenos 3HA headphone amp and applied the tweaks needed for the cards as listed in my profile (Foobar WASAPI, 44Khz, Hifi). Connecting the HD600's straight to the HP (300-600) out on the essence the thing sounds good which should have been the end of the problem. However, connecting the RCA outs to the Xenos 3HA I noticed a lot more details better placement BUT the deep bass extension seemed to be missing. There seemed to be a serious mid-range hump in the output. The only thing I could do was take the bass dial on the 3HA (set at 0, 12 o clock) and turn it a hair down and that improved it a little but not enough. What it did was reduce the mid-range hump but then the sound of the treble was unnatural. 
 I also had a lot of listener fatigue when listening to it at anything but soft volume. 
 I connected the HP out (at low 32 ohm impedance) to the xenos, I noticed that the out seemed to delay the transient response slightly which I didn't like though the sound stage was much increased. Also the dynamic range decreased significantly. I've also tried connecting the HD600 directly to the HP out (at 300-600 ohm setting) and the sound was balanced with good bass extension but lacked the detail of the RCA output and lacked dynamics compared to the xenos. 
 I don't understand this. Is it my Xenos amp? Why is does it seem that the mid-range is so prominent and the bass is so little? Even my wife recognized the lack of low bass in the RCA outs connected to the Xenos. Should I experiment with OP-amps? I run foobar with mp3's at 128-320kbps (unfortunately I don't have better sources). 

 Strange however, my previous card audigy 2zs on WASAPI had significantly less detail but had very nice bass extension and a more pleasing sound stage and more importantly I didn't experience that unbalanced mid-range prominence and less listening fatigue. (Please don't hate me). What should I do? I do love the detail of the RCA output but I want to erase this mid-range problem and increase bass extension.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *garbulky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I received the ST yesterday and I have to say. I am confused like crazy! I have a Xenos 3HA headphone amp and applied the tweaks needed for the cards as listed in my profile (Foobar WASAPI, 44Khz, Hifi). Connecting the HD600's straight to the HP (300-600) out on the essence the thing sounds good which should have been the end of the problem. However, connecting the RCA outs to the Xenos 3HA I noticed a lot more details better placement BUT the deep bass extension seemed to be missing. There seemed to be a serious mid-range hump in the output. The only thing I could do was take the bass dial on the 3HA (set at 0, 12 o clock) and turn it a hair down and that improved it a little but not enough. What it did was reduce the mid-range hump but then the sound of the treble was unnatural. 
 I also had a lot of listener fatigue when listening to it at anything but soft volume. 
 I connected the HP out (at low 32 ohm impedance) to the xenos, I noticed that the out seemed to delay the transient response slightly which I didn't like though the sound stage was much increased. Also the dynamic range decreased significantly. I've also tried connecting the HD600 directly to the HP out (at 300-600 ohm setting) and the sound was balanced with good bass extension but lacked the detail of the RCA output and lacked dynamics compared to the xenos. 
 I don't understand this. Is it my Xenos amp? Why is does it seem that the mid-range is so prominent and the bass is so little? Even my wife recognized the lack of low bass in the RCA outs connected to the Xenos. Should I experiment with OP-amps? I run foobar with mp3's at 128-320kbps (unfortunately I don't have better sources). 

 Strange however, my previous card audigy 2zs on WASAPI had significantly less detail but had very nice bass extension and a more pleasing sound stage and more importantly I didn't experience that unbalanced mid-range prominence and less listening fatigue. (Please don't hate me). What should I do? I do love the detail of the RCA output but I want to erase this mid-range problem and increase bass extension._

 

The headphonamp is actually significantly faster than the lineout amp. Flat response beyond 10megahertz at any gain level. In practice you should never hear the relative difference in speed of the amp as both have frequency response several times what the human ear can hear. The headphone amp is just an order of magnitude faster from an instrumented test perspective is all. The lineout has actually some audible loss due to the coupling caps. I have removed these coupling caps & the sound of the headphone amp & the lineout are pretty much identical as it should be as both have flat response far beyond the human hearing range.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The headphonamp is actually significantly faster than the lineout amp. Flat response beyond 10megahertz at any gain level. In practice you should never hear the relative difference in speed of the amp as both have frequency response several times what the human ear can hear. The headphone amp is just an order of magnitude faster from an instrumented test perspective is all. The lineout has actually some audible loss due to the coupling caps. I have removed these coupling caps & the sound of the headphone amp & the lineout are pretty much identical as it should be as both have flat response far beyond the human hearing range._

 

I don't suppose you've posted a "how-to" on how you removed the coupling caps?
 I will of course play with opamps 1st, but doing this mod would be nice LT too!


----------



## garbulky

Hi Germanium. I read your post. When you say flat response beyond 10 mhz what do you mean? Are you talking FR figures? I was under the impression these figures are between 20-20000 hz. 
 Also what kind of audible loss are you refferring to due to the coupling caps? Is it low-end coupling loss or mid-range? Could it cause what I'm talking about. Can a person with no soldiering experience do what you talked about? Also, is it reversible?


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *garbulky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Germanium. I read your post. When you say flat response beyond 10 mhz what do you mean? Are you talking FR figures? I was under the impression these figures are between 20-20000 hz. 
 Also what kind of audible loss are you refferring to due to the coupling caps? Is it low-end coupling loss or mid-range? Could it cause what I'm talking about. Can a person with no soldiering experience do what you talked about? Also, is it reversible?_

 

Audible response is considered 20Hz to 20,000Hz. Both lineout & headphone amp have orders of magnitude greater flat response than the human ear can detect. Both amps themselves are flat to beyond 1 megahertz.

 The losses in the coupling caps are more like a smearing of the sound & as a result the overtone structure is no longer as clear as it should be. Bass is less defined sounding & there is a loss of natural energy to the music at all frequencies. The shimmering sound coming from cymbals is reduced but the harsher elements of the cymbal sound make it through so the cymbals end up sounding harsh but less detailed at the same time. 

 Removing the coupling caps resolve most of these issues. Sound is smoother but more dynamic at the same time transients have more natural intensity & searing gitare solos retain thier searing qualities (speaking only of those thar are meant to sound that way not those that aren't). Cymbals are smoother & more detailed.

 Those that tried it along with instructions are in my thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/xo...ne-out-433996/. There other people have tried it & came to the same conclusion that I have that it sounds better in the ways I have described.

 While I don't really recommend that someone do this that doesn't have any soldering experience the mod is very easy & reversable if you decided you liked it better stock. I recommend you find someone with at least some soldering experience to at least show you how on one & maybe you do the other with them looking on. This is a multilayer board & is easily damaged if you rush the process.


----------



## jalyst

Thank-you!

 I cant see a "how-to" in that thread, haven't read it all yet though.


----------



## garbulky

Thanks for the response Germainium. 
 Okay so I take it back, all those comments I made about mid-range prominence and thin bass. IMO, it was my ears getting used to WAY better sound than my previous sound card. That or there was some sort of break-in/burn-in process working here. Right now to my ears, the bass goes quite deep, feels balanced and is very clear. Also the soundstage is really very good. Now, I haven't heard anything better than this soundcard and the HD600 with my headphone amp but I must say that I am shocked that such quality can be got out of my headphones which I bought refurbed for a little under 300 dollars (and medium bit rate mp3's at that!). I am receiving some axiom m80ti's soon and I can't wait to hear how they sound with the essence as its source.


----------



## bogglor

I recently bought a package deal -- Essence ST , H6 daughterboard, and HD-650s -- through a private sale online. Everything is connected and sounding great except for one thing. 

 I have Logitech Z-5500s for my PC speakers (I know, I know...) and am having an issue connecting them up to the H6 daughterboard. Basically, it seems that the center and sub channels are dead. I can't get them to register a test sound at all. I know that the cable coming from the Logitech control unit is fine, and I know that the 3.5 to RCA adapter is fine (I have tried many) since they work with my Realtek on board. I've tried to deliberately misroute (ie attempt to output other channels on the center and sub jacks) with no luck either. All other ports on the board work fine. Is it possible that just these 2 jacks are bad and that I should RMA the card or is there something in software that I might be missing?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Do you have the bass redirection turned on?
 I mean you should still be able to hear the test sound but this might help.
 I am unsure which OS you are using but if you are using Vista..etc set up the audio control panel in the main control panel. Also verify they are connected to the proper outputs on the H6 DAC card.


----------



## bogglor

It's Windows 7 x64, latest drivers. Speakers set to 5.1 inside of Windows but as you know, messing with the Asus channel setting changes this (and has no effect regardless -- it doesn't work in 5.1, 7.1, whatever) Everything is connected correctly as far as the 3.5mm wire (orange if memory serves, dont have it in front of me right now) that carries the sub/center from the Z-5500 control head. This is correctly going in to the proper ports on the H6. I have tried center/sub swap also to no effect. The ports just seem dead to me.


----------



## Telix

Dumb question, you guys... I have been updating the STX tweak/impressions thread, is there significantly different information in this ST "sneak peak" thread that both need to exist? I've changed the title of the STX thread to "STX & ST" to try to include both, but is that not going to work?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Basically everybody has been keeping the information here.
 Compiling both into one thread is not a good idea, they are very different cards as the ST can be surround. If a person is looking for information on the ST they don't want to weed through a bunch of information on the STX.


----------



## Telix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Basically everybody has been keeping the information here.
 Compiling both into one thread is not a good idea, they are very different cards as the ST can be surround. If a person is looking for information on the ST they don't want to weed through a bunch of information on the STX._

 

Can you help me with the differences between the two cards, for a question in the STX FAQ? I'm not sure what they are, entirely, besides the clock.


----------



## bogglor

I would keep the threads separate, yeah. There's a zillion useless, bordering on trollish posts by this one guy in this thread alone where he provides little to no valuable info (I read all 96 pages). I can't even imagine how many the other thread contains. 

 The fundamental differences I gleaned are the clock, the ability to connect the H6 daughter card for multichannel analog surround, and the one thing that nobody has mentioned yet -- DRIVERS. The STX drivers can't be used for the ST. I really had to go hunting around to find them since if you just go to the Asus site, only the STX drivers are readily available.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The drivers are similar but the ST allows the options for the surround sound add-on board. oth driver will be outfitted with auto sample rate adjustment for ASIO on the next release.


----------



## forciano

I recently got some OPA 827 for the I/V ( thanks again Robscix). After getting some synergy issues sorted out. I can definitely say that the sounds seems more accurate or as it should sound in real life, bass is perfect not overwhelming. The mid range is also pretty good, and depending what Im listening to the upper frequencies can get a bit to high for my taste, but reducing the gain in my amp a bit has fixed this. 
 I can also say that listening lossless music is a real joy, and seems that will force me to update my music collection to get most out of my setup.


----------



## forciano

And I might add listening to some Carlos Santana and Michael Jackson CD's is just makes me drool with this setup =)


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *forciano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And I might add listening to some Carlos Santana and Michael Jackson CD's is just makes me drool with this setup =)_

 

Glad you are enjoying them. Many actually suggest they like these over the legendary 627's... I think they both sound very similar.


----------



## mojave

Yesterday I had a chance to try some different opamps. I ended up with AD8620BR for the buffer and LT1469 for the I/V. This combo is very dynamic and detailed, yet not fatiguing. To me, it felt the most lifelike of any of the combos I tried. The OPA2107 was too harsh and the OPA2277, while smooth, seemed less detailed and had a darker feel. I actually tried many combos of both buffer and I/V using these opamps and also LT1358 an LT1057. 

 For the center/subwoofer buffer I also used the AD8620BR. I used the LT1358 for the I/V (I plan to get another LT1469 for the Center). For the surrounds I used OPA2107 for the buffer and OPA2277 for the I/V. I may change the buffer on these to something else.


----------



## Crookshank

Robscix,

 We have some alternative to DDL and DTS connect using the digital output for games?


----------



## ROBSCIX

S/Pdif is orginally spec'd for stereo output. The DDL and DTS-C are encoders which take the audio and encode it to either Dolby Digital or DTS but the encoders are lossy.
 Aside from these there is really nothing else to allow normal audio or gaming audio to be sent over a S/Pdif output.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Glad you are enjoying them. Many actually suggest they like these over the legendary 627's... I think they both sound very similar._

 

I might add here that some people suggest the Senn's HD650 sound veiled.
 Before depending what I was listening too you could say music had that "feel" to it. Now that slight "veil" has been reduced somehow and you feel a little bit closer to the music.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *forciano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I might add here that some people suggest the Senn's HD650 sound veiled.
 Before depending what I was listening too you could say music had that "feel" to it. Now that slight "veil" has been reduced somehow and you feel a little bit closer to the music._

 

So the OPA827's have lifted the veil a bit on your HD650's?
 Great, glad they are giving you a marked improvment in your sound system.


----------



## krisno

****!

 I just got my Asus Xonar D1. I first had to use the restoree.exe to even be able to install the drivers: Xonar EEPROM Failure - AlsaProject

 Then i fire up foobar 2000. For 5 seconds it sounds good. Then suddenly the stereo image dissapears. It plays just mono and it sounds distorted. When I go into control panel and do speaker check, LEFT & RIGHT comes from the middle, not left & right side.

 What is wrong?? The music is totally distorted also. if I unplug the headphones and replug them, the left & right separation is back, and music is normal. ...... the opamps fails driving the AKG K 701 directly ??? 

 Kris


----------



## krisno

follow up:

 I just reconnected the analog out, and now it is OK. Hmm... anyways, the sound is quite good. Its more detailed and more depth than onboard. It is warm and a little tuby sounding. Not bad. I use it with a tube amp, so well, i wont hear all the features in the sound anyways.

 But the tube amp makes alot of difference, it sounds thin with small soundstage without it. But I am not sure if that is b/c the tubes or amping in general. I guess both...

 K


----------



## krisno

I connected my AKG directly into the Xonar D1 for a while. I must admit - the sound is sweet. Its not sharp, but a bit 'close' so can be fatiguing anyhow.

 So it is true like people say - the sound is dark, tuby and warm... but well. it is also muddy and may be to dark. The details are not coming out too really well either. So maybe I should have gone for the D2 like you guys said.

 The D1 is OK. But not really that much of an upgrade from Onboard. A little bit, but not much..... a bit too much bass?

 Is the D2 and ST as bassy as the D1? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Kristian


----------



## Marantz

How are the new drivers coming along by the way?


----------



## krisno

Is the D2 as bassy and somewhat muddy as the D1 ??


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Marantz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How are the new drivers coming along by the way?_

 

They sound good and offer auto bit rate adjustment through ASIO so I think they are goign to be aroudn soon. Some are testing them right now.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They sound good and offer auto bit rate adjustment through ASIO so I think they are goign to be aroudn soon. Some are testing them right now.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I can help beta test them, with all my 30+ installed games


----------



## krisno

Interestlingly in Win7, using Foobar with wsasio plugin(asio) or through DS - DS sounds the better. wsasio is sharper, more fatiguing..

 K


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *forciano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can help beta test them, with all my 30+ installed games 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Many people have been asking me for the Beta's. I don't htink you will be waiting too much longer for the released versions. Maybe I will ask and see what I can do for the peopel that have been asking. I will keep you posted.


----------



## krisno

I have to say - I am very impressed by the Xonar D1 soundcard. It is more musical and nicer sounding than anything I have ever tried. Even standalone CDPs.


----------



## bogglor

Does anyone know what kind of opamps I can use to tame the high end of the very common HD650 + Essence ST combo? I don't think people I've read many complaints about this combo being bright (?) with the stock opamps, but I am finding it kind of fatiguing to listen to rock/pop music on these cans with a flat EQ. I'm really enjoying audiophile grade and jazz recordings but even though the HD-650s have a rep for a laid back presentation, I'm finding the highs a little aggressive. Suggestions?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Are you using the proper setting on the headphone amplifer as this usually seems to be the reason for brightness. You will have to change out the I/V opamps...


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bogglor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know what kind of opamps I can use to tame the high end of the very common HD650 + Essence ST combo? I don't think people I've read many complaints about this combo being bright (?) with the stock opamps, but I am finding it kind of fatiguing to listen to rock/pop music on these cans with a flat EQ. I'm really enjoying audiophile grade and jazz recordings but even though the HD-650s have a rep for a laid back presentation, I'm finding the highs a little aggressive. Suggestions?_

 

I'm currently using a tube amp instead of the built in one with my 650's. I will test them with my current opamps and let you know what i think. 
 Just be aware that what i think is bright sound might not be the same for you.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Many people have been asking me for the Beta's. I don't htink you will be waiting too much longer for the released versions. Maybe I will ask and see what I can do for the peopel that have been asking. I will keep you posted._

 

Did you ever hear anything about binaries for Linux from them?
 I know there's the open ones that are coming along nicely...
 But it'd be cool if Asus themselves are actively developing a binary (closed) dvr for Linux too.

 P.S.
 you need to clear some PM's, must be a popular guy


----------



## bogglor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you using the proper setting on the headphone amplifer as this usually seems to be the reason for brightness. You will have to change out the I/V opamps..._

 

When you say proper setting, do you mean extra high gain? They're 300 so I figured that was correct.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bogglor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When you say proper setting, do you mean extra high gain? They're 300 so I figured that was correct._

 

The tenadancy for some is to over amp them which gives way too much gain and makes the card too bright. How does high gain sound to you?


----------



## bogglor

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The tenadancy for some is to over amp them which gives way too much gain and makes the card too bright. How does high gain sound to you?_

 

High gain does sound a bit less bright, you're right. Unfortunately, it's at the cost of a little bass (so it seems from initial listening). I think I will stick with this for a bit and see how it goes.


----------



## ROBSCIX

New signatures take awhile to get used to. You canalways mod the opamps to get a siganture that is more to your taste or synergy with your equipment.


----------



## jalyst

...


----------



## Audi4ever

Hi everyone

 After reading so much positive about this card i think i would get the ST. 

 And as i understand this card is good with HD650, but is is also a good match to the Denon AH-D5000/7000?

 Thanks in advance


----------



## ROBSCIX

The card can electrically drive any headphone-thats has been tested with them in the thread. Many people have tried the cards with the HD650's. I can't remember any user with the Denons but I cannot see any issue as the can amplifer chip has loads of power. To note, some with higher end headphones use the ST/STX as a DAC and send the line out to an external headphones amplifer for higher grade sound.


----------



## Audi4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The card can electrically drive any headphone-thats has been tested with them in the thread. Many people have tried the cards with the HD650's. I can't remember any user with the Denons but I cannot see any issue as the can amplifer chip has loads of power. To note, some with higher end headphones use the ST/STX as a DAC and send the line out to an external headphones amplifer for higher grade sound._

 

Many thanks for your reply

 My mainreason to get this card is the headpone amp. I realy hope this card would benefit my cans more than my receiver(Onkyo 905 surround), becuase the bass i lacking now with the HD650.

 I have read much about this card, and all expert reviwers are more than happy with it so i quess its a save choice.

 I have also followed the threads about this card in here, but it goes to teknically for me.

 I have also seen that many use the line out to their HP, and wounder why?. Do you loose the benefit of the amp if you use line out?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well the opinions of this card from people that have actually tested are great. Both the STX and ST use high quality components and the measurements are some of the best seen in any PC audio gear.

 Some use the line out for speakers. You can use the line out if you have headphones with low impedance as they do not require the amplifier. Technically the line out is of higher quality then the can output. There are also a few mods to improve it further.

 Were you playing with the bass redirection when using the headphones?
 Have a look in there and adjust it and see if it helps. Usually bass redirection is used
 for surround system but these cards allow you to set the bass cutoff for your cans also, IIRC.
 which OS are you using?


----------



## Audi4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well the opinions of this card frompeopel that have actually tested are great. Botht he STX and ST use high quality components and the measurments are some of the best seen in any PC audio gear.

 Some use the line out for speakers. You can use the lineout if you have heapdheons with low impedance as they do not require the amplifer. Technically the line out is of higher quality then the can output. There are also a few mods to improve it further.

 Were you playing with the bass redirection when using the headphones?
 Have a look in there and adjust it and see if it helps. Usually bass redirection is used
 for surround system but these cards allow you to set the bass cutoff for your cans also, IIRC.
 which OS are you using?_

 

Thanks for your help agian

 As my English is abit rusty, i think you have misunderstud me. I do not have the card yet, so i only use my receiver now. As i have the HD650 and the Denon AH-D5000 all the experts tell me i must have an real amp to them. The Denon is maybe a low impedance can, but would also benefit from a good amp. I dont think many AH-D users use their can without a real amp...well exept me then. But i realy think they need better sound than my receiver can give them. 

 I have never owned HP before so the only reference to the sound i have is my frontspeakers(floorstanders), and hopefully with amp they could sound as good as my speakers.

 I also wounder if someone have compared the xonar essence stx/st HP with receivers HP jack


----------



## ROBSCIX

Ah, I see yes the headphones amplifier would probably give you much more power then the output on a receiver. I have not tested that receiver though.
 The ST drive the HD650 great according to users.


----------



## forciano

I have tested using my receiver as a headphone amp with my 650's and it sounds OK to me. But I have a dedicated headphone amplifier, and already changed the opamp's and the sound quality is just so much better. That being said I have yet to try my HD 650's through the headphone amp, I will try it as soon as I have time.


----------



## Audi4ever

Many thanks for your time with me in here

 I looking forward to your test forciano


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Many people have been asking me for the Beta's. I don't htink you will be waiting too much longer for the released versions. Maybe I will ask and see what I can do for the peopel that have been asking. I will keep you posted._

 

Did you ever hear anything about binaries for Linux from them?
 I know there's the open ones that are coming along nicely...
 But it'd be cool if Asus themselves are actively developing a binary (closed) dvr for Linux too.


----------



## Audi4ever

This is probarly i stupid question, but i am nooob with big N.

 As i have a retired DVD player(Pioneer DV-989 AVI), i wounder if i could connect this to the cards analog section only for CD listening through HP out?. Maybe the DVD player has a better dac than the card, i dont know


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you ever hear anything about binaries for Linux from them?
 I know there's the open ones that are coming along nicely...
 But it'd be cool if Asus themselves are actively developing a binary (closed) dvr for Linux too._

 

I will ring the grapevine and see what I can find out.
 I know there are a few guys developing drivers using Linux. Didn't you post some information about it here? They allowed you to adjust the oversampling of the DAC etc?


----------



## Ra97oR

What is the difference between the Windows setting to the Xonar control panel settings on the sample rate + bit rate.

 I want to play 44.1 resampled by the card to 96 but not by Windows, what settings should I use?

 Note: Not on ASIO or WASPI.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Wait, so you want windows to leave the audio at 44.1 but have the card upsample it?
 What player are you using? You can get resamplers for many players also


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait, so you want windows to leave the audio at 44.1 but have the card upsample it?
 What player are you using? You can get resamplers for many players also_

 

Best jitter reduction occures when upsampling in hardware so leaving the windows sample rate at 44.1 then upsampling via the hardware resampler in the card should reduce the jitter from computer by the highestpossible degree as opposed to resampling in software.


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audi4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is probarly i stupid question, but i am nooob with big N.

 As i have a retired DVD player(Pioneer DV-989 AVI), i wounder if i could connect this to the cards analog section only for CD listening through HP out?. Maybe the DVD player has a better dac than the card, i dont know_

 

The sound would end up very near identical coming out this card.The dacs in this card are very good. Burr Browns best stereo DAC actually. There is no chance of passing the analog input sound through this card without going through at least 2 conversions. Analog to digital & then digital to analog. There is no pure analog pass through with this card or just about any other computer sound card either.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Best jitter reduction occures when upsampling in hardware so leaving the windows sample rate at 44.1 then upsampling via the hardware resampler in the card should reduce the jitter from computer by the highestpossible degree as opposed to resampling in software._

 

Yes, I was asking him what he was trying to achieve before I recommended anything to him or offered any advice.


----------



## Audi4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The sound would end up very near identical coming out this card.The dacs in this card are very good. Burr Browns best stereo DAC actually. There is no chance of passing the analog input sound through this card without going through at least 2 conversions. Analog to digital & then digital to analog. There is no pure analog pass through with this card or just about any other computer sound card either._

 

Many thanks for the clarification

 My DVD player has Burr Brown 1738, and my receiver Burr Brown 1796. Have all sound related product these Burr and Brown?


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will ring the grapevine and see what I can find out.
 I know there are a few guys developing drivers using Linux. Didn't you post some information about it here? They allowed you to adjust the oversampling of the DAC etc?_

 

No someone else posted that but I knew about it (not those specific developments).

 You seem to have their ear in-relation to Windows dvrs, so I'm curios whether they're developing a binary for Linux.
 Prolly not as there's already good progress in the ALSA project...
 But nVidia's binary dev. in Linux hasn't slowed despite there being nouveau, so you never know!

 Thanks d00d!


----------



## kumaiti

Little question about DVD playing:

 If you are watching a source that is 5.1, how should you configure the "Audio Channels" on "Xonar Audio Center", so that Dolby Headphone makes a proper virtualization of that source?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Set audio channel Input for 6 channel and set the card for headphone and enable Dolby Headphone.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audi4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Many thanks for your time with me in here

 I looking forward to your test forciano_

 

I did like 30 mins of testing and I can say it sounds good to me, but I guess I'm not the most indicated person to run such a test since I'm not using the same Opamps as you and I have spent some money improving the sound in general from my system.

 Yet i liked what i heard with my ST, it just doesn't compare to my setup though, so Im afraid im still a little biased.

 I will listen to different music Once i have more time.


----------



## garbulky

Hey guys just wanted to let y'all, ROBSCIX (and the other two posters that helped me, you guys know who you are) how I was doing with my soundcard adventures... I also realized that there should be a bunch of people like me in position: Trying to run a power amplifier that does not have a preamplifier or volume gain control with a soundcard and wondering if that was possible. Also, those that are thinking that it may be better to output using their portable headphone amp to a power amplifier. Other than head-fi, I haven't come across many sources that give information on this. 
 Having said that, this will be somewhat rambling so bear with me (or skip over). 

 I recieved my Xonar essence ST and it was very well packaged and it really seemed like Asus was proud of their soundcard. It came with two glossy posters to hang up on my wall (haha!) The essence is probably the most gorgeous gold and black card I have ever seen. Gawww! 

 I also received an emotiva UPA-2 power amplifier and a pair of axiom audio's m80ti tower speakers. I also have an Xenos 3HA headphone amp and Senn. HD600 phoones with HD650 cable upgrade running Foobar in WASAPI. 

 Once they arrived and were all setup, I began my listening. I have to say that through my listening tests, I found the Xenos 3HA to have between to slightly to significantly better soundstage and details through the RCA outs than the Xonars HA could manage (which was quite a lot!) Also, the dynamic range on the Xenos I found to be quite better than the essence HA (which wasn't terrible set@300-600 ohms impedance). 

 When I bought my speakers and amp, I was hoping for similiar mid and high-range detail and the HD600 with more impact in the low-end. 

 Well, let me tell you (as others have adviced me too) that the card DOES work flawlessly connected directly to the power amplifier while you control the audio through the windows volume control. It doesn't run out of steam at full volume or distort, or hiss which is what the guy at emotiva told me may happen with an average PC sound card. 

 In fact at 100% volume which is equal to 120WX2 both channels driven there was NO hiss at listening position (with the ear right next to the tweeter there was a very faint high frequency, barely noticeable hiss, you may actually not even hear it. About 5-10cm away, no hiss). 

 Another huge surprise was that the speaker setup on first impressions completely outclassed the HD600's in pretty much all departments. I was not ready for that considering the M80ti's (no sub) were 1300 USD shipping included (weighing 120 pounds for the pair)! 
 This was very surprising for me, but I was thrilled that this showed the potential of my soundcard. 
 With the power of the UPA-2 behind it, I listened to a variety of music and movies. 
 I've had these songs for a few years now and I was intimately familiar with most of them and enjoyed them to death.
 First thing I noticed was that on the sennheisser I noticed my first experience of SOUNDSTAGE. And it was very nice. I felt like I was actually in the middle or the front seat of a performance. On the tower's the soundstage was not smackdab in the middle. But the soundstage was amazing and significantly better than what the HD600's delivered using either amp. I heard audio 3 feet away from me as if there was somebody next to me playing a guitar. At the same time, I hear audio just about half a foot to the outside of the speaker. Only a few times did I hear audio actually coming from the speakers itself. The audio was really that good. 
 Also I found myself playing more songs with less complicated tracks (i.e. just a voice and maybe two acoustic instruments) as the level of realism really felt like there was a performance in my living room. 
 The bass was as defined as the sennheisser's, however, audibly they extended far lower than the HD600's did and did so with much greater power and impact. This is not saying the HD600's are a slouch, just that these sounded better. My towers are rated at 34hz +/-3db with about +/-1.5 db from 50-15000 hz. Well, they delivered it and I was quite surprised that I feel NO need for a subwoofer. The bass is very deep, very low, by maybe an octave or slightly less. 

 The dynamic range was also quite a bit greater than the HD600's and also felt more realistic. For instance, if I was listening to a movie at listening levels, the sound volume was as loud as a person would normally speak. Then if something loud happens, the sound level is very close to what you would expect it to be. 
 I watched the hurt locker on Blu-ray and on the scene where there is the first explosion in slow-mo, it was really very nice. 
 Everything started shaking around me, and it got very loud very cleanly and I could hear the pebbles as they rose and fell from the shockwave very clearly while the shock and blast exploded around you. 

 Back to the music, the vocals in the music are an absolute joy. I fired up Jewel, or Holly cole, or even willie nelson. Their voices sounded as if they were floating about a half a foot in front of my tv and also, it sounded like they were standing above me and taller than the other instruments which were at my level ( I am sitting on a low couch). 
 Old recordings came to life and I have never heard live music the way that I heard it now. Diana Ross's voice was just sweet and intimate. 
 My wife sat with me and immediately was hooked (she didn't care quite as much for the HD600's though she did like them as well). She said what my other friends told me. 
 This was "it is like you are there," and when asked about the details they said "it's just RIGHT." They also remarked about the voices floating about the soundstage as if there were no speakers. 
 I watched The blind side which was a movie with a sparse soundtrack and was thoroughly impressed. Normal things like doors closing, a group conversation all came startlingly to life as if it was happening in our living room. 
 There were a few parts with slow notes being tapped lightly on a piano , well I couldn't understand why something so simple was so absorbing. Then I figured it out, every note being hit was at a different height, depth and a point left to right from the previous note. My jaw just dropped at the subtlety possible by the soundcard (and towers). 

 So, if anybody is looking to get this soundcard, it is completely worth every penny. 

 Somethings that I had problems/lack of features I had with it: 
 Figuring out the control panel. Finding an adapter for my mic. I heard that the recording had a big lag in it. I haven't tried this out but I will be needing to so that may be a downside. If you want surround, you have to buy the daughter board (not so much a problem for me as I am a stereo guy). 

 Lack of onboard DTS and dolby digital true HD decoding (also lack of protected path HDCP just like every other soundcard on market for 96khz blu-ray audio). Lack of SPDIF, HDMI input/passthrough (the HDAV has that). Also, the inability to play sound through the stereo annd the headphones at the same time. 
 Having said that, in practical use, these problems are either negligible/shared with every soundcard on the market. 
 All in all, I am very satisfied with the card. It was on this website that I finally figured out which soundcard I needed and decided to go for the Xonar over a mid-range DAC (DAC didn't have as easy a volume control).


----------



## garbulky

How the heck do you make images from flickr show up??
 I clicked attach picture and put the URL in and nothing happened. Anyway, here are the pics. 

100_0609 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
100_0610 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
100_0612 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
100_0607 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
100_1598 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
100_1594 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
100_1595 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Glad I could help.


----------



## Kuze

I wish you could save profiles, get a little annoying switching from music to movies and then have to setup channels and sample rates, although i hear no difference when left on 6 or 8 channels using HF.

 Is it just me, I'm getting serious listening fatigue just after 3 songs, ST stock opamp > Silver Dragon > HD650, waiting on some opamp adapters.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Soon, you won't have the change sampling rates as the next driver release will allow auto sample rate adjustment through ASIO. AFAIK, this driver set is already being tested by some.
 It would be nice to have the ability to save profiles so when you clicked on a icon, the card would switch settings. Auzen/CL cards have an applicaiton that does that.


----------



## garbulky

Hey Robscix regarding the setting no. of channels. I have only a stereo system. I am using powerDVD 7 ultra in vista and watch blu-ray movies. Should I set my output to 6 speakers in powerdvd and 6 channels in the xonar control panel? Will that downmix into two channels or will that completely mess it up? 

 Reason I ask is that Im having a problem with powerdvd on 2 speaker setting (in powerdvd control panel) when Dolby trueHD format is used the sound comes about 50% louder on my left speaker! 
 It goes back to normal when I set powerdvd to six speakers but the sound is so much softer and I feel like I lose quality.

 I had the same problem with the audigy 2zs and now with the xonar. I've uninstalled Powerdvd and reinstalled it and no diff. Any ideas? I bet a clean reinstall of vista would fix it but I won't be able to do that.


----------



## ROBSCIX

If you were using just a stereo setting in the powerDVD control panel, it is weird that it would make the audio louder out of one channel over the other. There is something off about that. 
 If you were using headphones with DH, I would set PDVD to 6 channels and the card for headphones to downmix and virtualize the surround info. You may be able to get a sort of virtual surround using Dolby Virtual speaker perhaps.
 If you are only using stereo output on the card then you are limited for BD audio etc.
 Get yourself an H6 DAC expansion board when you can.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kuze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wish you could save profiles, get a little annoying switching from music to movies and then have to setup channels and sample rates, although i hear no difference when left on 6 or 8 channels using HF.

 Is it just me, I'm getting serious listening fatigue just after 3 songs, ST stock opamp > Silver Dragon > HD650, waiting on some opamp adapters._

 

I have been listening to my HD 650 with the gain option set to 60-300 ohms, volume set to 44 and running with ASIO on foobar (i didnt touch foobars volume). With the OPA 827 opamps the sound is really decent and I have not gotten any listening fatigue in the 2+ hrs of music listening


----------



## newvoice

How about it campare with JULI@ for pure listen music?


----------



## Kuze

All i can say is WOW!, what a difference swapping out Opamps made, swapped to 49720HA's and it sounds way better, I'm going to try 49710 plus the others recommended.


----------



## giedrys

What's up with 24/88.2 FLAC playback on ST? 
 I use foobar with ASIO, gives me errors that sample rate is not supported and asks to adjust resampler properly? 

 I know that there's no native 88.2 or 176.4 support on ST, but I adjusted sample rate to 96 in asus and windows control panel. What else is there? I really don't want to use foobar's own software resamplers.


----------



## shimm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use foobar with ASIO, gives me errors that sample rate is not supported and asks to adjust resampler properly?_

 

Native ASIO doesn't support 96, 192 (resamples to 48 or even 40? see pic). Use KS or WASAPI untill they (Asus) make _good_ ASIO as they promise.


----------



## phusg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Get yourself an H6 DAC expansion board when you can._

 

When and if you can indeed. I e-mailed Asus about availability of the H6 and the ST in Holland a few weeks ago (the ST isn't even listed on Asus.nl!) but haven't heard a thing back from them. I can only see a couple of the H6's being sold on ebay for anything from 46-62 euros, which is a rip off IMHO. Where's a bundled ST + H6 Asus?


----------



## ROBSCIX

I have not seen a "deluxe" version. I think you can only buy them seperately.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shimm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Native ASIO doesn't support 96, 192 (resamples to 48 or even 40? see pic). Use KS or WASAPI untill they (Asus) make good ASIO as they promise._

 

There is a new set that is being tested by a few people right now that allows no resampling for ASIO and changes the smapling rate accordingly.
 When using ASIO output, all the effects, volume etc have no function.
 Which is normal when using such drivers atleast in my experience with other cards.


----------



## giedrys

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shimm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Native ASIO doesn't support 96, 192 (resamples to 48 or even 40? see pic). Use KS or WASAPI untill they (Asus) make good ASIO as they promise._

 

Wasapi also doesn't work. What is "native" ASIO? I use ASIO 4all v2 Foobar plug-in and it plays 96 and 192 files smoothly. Does this still mean that ST downsamples them all the time?


----------



## raiser roofer

:edit: I'm using the ST*X*, not ST.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does this still mean that ST downsamples them all the time?_

 

of course not, you're just imagining things.


----------



## giedrys

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_of course not, you're just imagining things._

 

Dear shrink, thanks for your help. That's a big relief


----------



## leeperry

no worries, I'm always here for you. that'll be $95, though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you're beating a dead horse anyway: Stereophile: ASUS Xonar Essence ST/STX soundcards
  Quote:


 96 and 192kHz files were being downsampled to 48kHz, with spectral components higher than 48kHz aliased into the audioband. 
 

and that dear Mr "_everything's under control_" yoyolai(the Xonar Product Manager) told me that it'd be fixed ASAP in May 2009, together w/ an "automatically bit-matched" mode. ouh, we're in April 2010...time flies, doesn't it.


----------



## shimm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wasapi also doesn't work._

 

_WASAPI exclusive_ works just fine for me. But i prefer sound of KS in XP. Quote:


 What is "native" ASIO? 
 

i meant ASIO of ST(X) Quote:


 I use ASIO 4all v2 Foobar plug-in and it plays 96 and 192 files smoothly. Does this still mean that ST downsamples them all the time? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

ASIO4ALL downsamples to 48 too. I advice to forget about ST/X ASIO untill Asus will realise new driver. Right now it useless for anything - high latency and resampling. Well, you can use it for 44.1/16 though. ASIO4ALL has 32-bit input, it may be usefull for cPlay player (requires 32-bit asio).


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shimm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ASIO4ALL downsamples to 48 too._

 

sorry, but this is an urban legend...I also read it on some french forum, and asked its author..here's his reply:
  Quote:


 ASIO4ALL does _not_ have such limitations that you may have read about. More or less the available range of sample rates/bit depths entirely depend on the capabilities of the individual audio devices. 
 

A4A is actually the smartest ASIO driver you could possibly find IMHO...there's a board where audio drivers engineers chit-chat, and they're all pretty amazed by how well A4A works.

 more often than not, you read ppl saying that it "sounds" better than the manufacturer's supplied ASIO drivers.

 A4A clearly outputs 44.1/48/88.2/96 for me, it even lights up as such in the ESI EWDM drivers...I can also see my toslink DAC indicator light up when I change the sample rate


----------



## shimm

*leeperry*, have you tried to measure it with 96, 192 samples? We've tried and found that it downsamples to 48. I've tried to listen it with 192/32 sample and it sound terrible (a bit better with ST asio and no problem at all with KS). BTW, madshi said A4A resamples to 48 (can't find a link). And it seems like A4A uses KS/WASAPI anyway. Well, may be a4a resamples not always and it depends of ... something i can't get.


----------



## leeperry

oh, well you're only as strong as your weakest link of course...I've sold my Asus cards like 1 year ago, the drivers were giving me suicidal tendencies 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but the weak link clearly isn't A4A, that's all I'm saying.

 well, maybe madshi was also a victim of flaky drivers? I can assure you that using both the ESI EWDM/VIA generic drivers on the HD2 and these drivers on a CMI8768 board, I do get 88.2/96 enabled both in the drivers GUI indicator, and my toslink external DAC picks up the sample rate switch: cmediadrivers


----------



## ROBSCIX

@Shimm, Next version of drivers for the STX/ST will offer autosample rate adjustment and support of currently missing sample rates that some asked for like 88.2, 176..etc. All is performed through native ASIO and from what I have seen and heard everything is working great. Hopefully they will be out to the masses soon.
 Version should be available for both STX and ST for XP and Vista/Win7.


----------



## shimm

hope so... because hardware mods arn't endless ))


----------



## ROBSCIX

No but there are quite a few of them for sure!
 To note, if you set the card for the proper sample rate of your audio then you get no resampling.


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Set audio channel Input for 6 channel and set the card for headphone and enable Dolby Headphone._

 

Thanks

 Another question since you seem to be beta-testing the new drivers:

 Are they flexible enough to allow to use Dolby Headphone on the "Speaker Out"?

 I see a lot of people (including myself) using the Speaker Out directly to the headphones and Dolby Virtual Speakers doesn't really work with headphones.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks

 Another question since you seem to be beta-testing the new drivers:

 Are they flexible enough to allow to use Dolby Headphone on the "Speaker Out"?

 I see a lot of people (including myself) using the Speaker Out directly to the headphones and Dolby Virtual Speakers doesn't really work with headphones._

 

Not that I have seen so far. 
 I have mentioned this to different card houses as many use different headphones configurations such as a DAC/can amp etc.


----------



## kumaiti

Too bad, I really like Dolby Headphone (one of the main reasons I got the Essence instead of Forte or Bravura) but I find the sound from the line out much more comfortable.


 Thanks anyway.


----------



## kumaiti

I think I made a little mistake...

 I recently got these:
 AD797 SMT Dual Op Amp IC'S IC CHIP
 (from here: 2pcs, AD797 SMT Dual Op Amp IC'S IC CHIP - eBay (item 270551169773 end time Mar-28-10 17:27:14 PDT))

 Will they fit in the i/v slots on the ST ??


----------



## germanium

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I made a little mistake...

 I recently got these:
 AD797 SMT Dual Op Amp IC'S IC CHIP
 (from here: 2pcs, AD797 SMT Dual Op Amp IC'S IC CHIP - eBay (item 270551169773 end time Mar-28-10 17:27:14 PDT))

 Will they fit in the i/v slots on the ST ??_

 

They will need an adapter to work.


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *germanium* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They will need an adapter to work._

 

Is there an specific name for this adapter?
 What kind should I get for them to simply fit in the slots?


----------



## kumaiti

Another general question:

 Is it possible to put 2 different opamps in the two i/v slots?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Another general question:

 Is it possible to put 2 different opamps in the two i/v slots?_

 

You can use two different opamps but then your left and right channels would sound different. They are a matched set for your left and right signals.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there an specific name for this adapter?
 What kind should I get for them to simply fit in the slots?_

 

The AD797 units are signle channel so you will require two per adapter unit. You will require one of these units for each I/V socket. So if you want to use these chips for I/V you will need 4 of the units your showed.

 The adapter you will need is usually called a "Dual SOIC8 to DIP8 Adapter" or something along those lines. To note, this is not that easy to do on your own if you are not that handy with a soldering iron. If this is the case you may want to find another that can solder them up for you.


----------



## kumaiti

Thanks.


 Back to the beginning...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks.


 Back to the beginning..._

 

OK, what type of signature are you looking for?
 If we have an idea of what you are after we have a better idea of what to recommend.


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, what type of signature are you looking for?
 If we have an idea of what you are after we have a better idea of what to recommend._

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/xo...ml#post6531778


 I gotta stop posting in two similar threads, it is getting confusing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 I also asked once in the opamp thread in the DIY forum and got the ad797 recommendation.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The AD797 are not too bad and some really like them. I have them but I have some other that I like more. I find they can produce great sound in certain circuits.

 I was also thinking some of the Linear Tech units might be better for you to give a more warmer bassier type sound with a bit of high roll off.

 Yes, keep the conversation to one thread


----------



## kumaiti

Lets stick to this one, since I have the ST, not the STX.

 Two questions:
 1. What is "glossy highs" (sorry, couldn't find it on the glossary in the headphone forum)
 2. Between the OPA2134 and OPA2227, which one has clearer mids and highs while keeping a nice bass?

 I can buy either here for about the same price, though I don't really want to buy both...


----------



## ROBSCIX

I find the OPA2227 has the better bass but for mids and high range they are very similar being from the same family of opamps.

 People say glossy, meaning they sound "sparkly" similar to a tube type of sound, It is really hard to describe sound and one you hear one of them you will understand what I mean.


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have them but I have some other that I like more. 

 I was also thinking some of the Linear Tech units might be better for you to give a more warmer bassier type sound with a bit of high roll off._

 


 Any specific units in mind other than the OPA2227?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any specific units in mind other than the OPA2227?_

 

I have a very large colleciton of opamps and have been working with them for many years. Let me look through my colelction and see what I can dig up for you. There are many others aroudn that have tested opamps on these cards and would have great suggestions for you.

 Since you are only mentioning the I/V section, I am thnking you are using the headohones output. Do you need the extra power or just using it for convience?


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Since you are only mentioning the I/V section, I am thnking you are using the headohones output. Do you need the extra power or just using it for convience?_

 

Just for the convenience of not having to reconnect the cans whenever I want to use Dolby Headphone for movies. The AD900 is just 35ohm, so the power isn't that necessary.


 thanks a lot for checking this out.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just for the convenience of not having to reconnect the cans whenever I want to use Dolby Headphone for movies. The AD900 is just 35ohm, so the power isn't that necessary.

 thanks a lot._

 

Well, give the line outputs a chance as technically the line outs are the higher qulaity outputs. However, you will lose the headphone options...
 When using the line outputs you have the option to modify 3 opamps which offers more flexibility for tuning your sound.

 Try the line outs and see what you think...


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try the line outs and see what you think..._

 


 I did. And I did find the sound more pleasant, less harsh, though still lacking bass (headphone's fault, not really the card's fault). Most of the time I am only listening to music or comparing headphones, I use the line outs.

 That is why I got curious about changing the opamps and even bought those Ad797 by mistake.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Also, did you notice that when you set the card for headphones that you have settings under Flexbass? There are setings for adjustment for bass redirection for large and small headphones.
 If there is a incorrect setting here it can remove your bass.


----------



## kumaiti

I did notice them, but they are turned off.


----------



## jalyst

I'm prolly getting the AD900 for corded cans to pair with my ST.
 Good to know someone else has them and are happy...


----------



## kumaiti

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jalyst* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good to know someone else has them and are happy..._

 

That wouldn't be me.

 I will elaborate later on that, stay tuned!!


----------



## krisno

Guys

 I am using the Xonar D1 , and tube amp. Tubes have a narrower soundstage that solidstate, but even if i plug headphone directly into soundcard, it is a quite narrow soundstage. Everything else is quite good (very dark, which is good complement to tube amp).

 My question is - the Xonar ST does it have as narrow soundstage as the D1? And what can be done to increase it?

 I once had a Burson HA 100 headphone amp. Fully discrete and it implements the Burson opamps. I have NEVER EVER heard a wider soundstage in my life. So, will swapping the stock buffer opamps with discrete opamps(audio-gd) do anything to increase the sound stage? ..... they are expensive so maybe not worth it. What else can be done?

 Here are the Burson internals - very nice indeed....






 Kris


----------



## kumaiti

Here are my impressions on ATH-AD900 + Essence ST:

 the AD900 is known to be a very good headphone but "bright" and with a "tight but lean bass". I have to agree with both statements.


 Now, TO MY EARS with these headphones, the Essence is ALSO "bright", though not bass-light. I even have to partially agree with the exaggerated statements from Leepery: sometimes it is harsh and even painful.

 So, currently I am NOT very happy with the combination. In fact, I have just ordered OPA2227 to try to "tame" this bright character. If that still doesn't solve the problem, I might have even to sell the AD900 and get something else.


----------



## Ra97oR

Essence is rather neutral and have massive (partly to do with the Terminator too) sound-stage in my setup with its line-out, but cannot say the same with its headphone out. Headphone out on Essence pairs very poorly with low impendence phones, it do 64-600Ohms far better than low ohms Audio Technica. The headphone out is very bright and weak with my AD1000PRM, the line-out even sounds far better than it.


----------



## kumaiti

Line out is indeed a little better as I mentioned in a previous post. 

 But to me that doesn't work very well because part of the reason I bought the essence instead of some other card was because of Dolby Headphone, which I can't use when plugged to the line out.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I even have to partially agree with the exaggerated statements from Leepery: sometimes it is harsh and even painful._

 

harsh, painful, exaggerated...someone called my name?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Line out is indeed a little better as I mentioned in a previous post. 

 But to me that doesn't work very well because part of the reason I bought the essence instead of some other card was because of Dolby Headphone, which I can't use when plugged to the line out._

 

Yes, which is what I said above. You lose the ability to use DH if you like it. You can always use it on your player as there are ways to add it to certain player software. If you are the modder type, the line outs can be further improved by bypassing the coupling caps. 
 It was also seen that many that had issue with brightness were not setting the card properly and overdriving the headphones so check that.
 You can only put so much to the source as your cans are also part of the equation. However, if the stock opamp configuration is not a good match for your cans you can tune it to give a more enjoyable response using different opamps.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ra97oR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Essence is rather neutral and have massive (partly to do with the Terminator too) sound-stage in my setup with its line-out, but cannot say the same with its headphone out. Headphone out on Essence pairs very poorly with low impendence phones, it do 64-600Ohms far better than low ohms Audio Technica. The headphone out is very bright and weak with my AD1000PRM, the line-out even sounds far better than it._

 

I agree with you, I prefer the line outputs myself. Others seem to prefer the can out. Everybody has different tastes for a source.


----------



## Kuze

Think I'm about to jump ship on this card, even though swapping out the Opamp makes hella difference 15-20mins gain set 12-18 i still get harshness and fatigue, as mentioned even sometimes painful, i don't know what could it be if it's just me.
 Asus ST > Foobar > ASIO > Silver Dragon > Sennheiser Hd650.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Sell it off and buy something that has better synergy with your amp and cans.


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sell it off and buy something that has better synergy with your amp and cans._

 

Yep, maybe build a b22, plus quite frankly i don't like Asus support, just head on over to their forum and see for yourself, use to have a motherboard and it was the same principle, looks>performance.


----------



## forciano

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krisno* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys

 I am using the Xonar D1 , and tube amp. Tubes have a narrower soundstage that solidstate, but even if i plug headphone directly into soundcard, it is a quite narrow soundstage. Everything else is quite good (very dark, which is good complement to tube amp).

 My question is - the Xonar ST does it have as narrow soundstage as the D1? And what can be done to increase it?

 I once had a Burson HA 100 headphone amp. Fully discrete and it implements the Burson opamps. I have NEVER EVER heard a wider soundstage in my life. So, will swapping the stock buffer opamps with discrete opamps(audio-gd) do anything to increase the sound stage? ..... they are expensive so maybe not worth it. What else can be done?

 Here are the Burson internals - very nice indeed....







 Kris_

 

You understand that every tube out there is different right, which makes it really nice towards tweaking the resulting sound. You cant say all tubes have the same sound, that's the beauty of using them. 

 With that being said if you want a wider soundstage I found from the Opamps I have used so far the LME49720SM's
 had the wider soundstage with my Senns HD 650.

 I also recommend you do some reading on tubes and find the ones that increase soundstage, because at least for my amp there is.

  Quote:


 Think I'm about to jump ship on this card, even though swapping out the Opamp makes hella difference 15-20mins gain set 12-18 i still get harshness and fatigue, as mentioned even sometimes painful, i don't know what could it be if it's just me.
 Asus ST > Foobar > ASIO > Silver Dragon > Sennheiser Hd650. 
 

Weird I tested the headphone amp myself, with my HD 650's and at medium gain and around 44 volume I found them very comfortable to listen too. Of course I probably have different Opamps than you.


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *forciano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Weird I tested the headphone amp myself, with my HD 650's and at medium gain and around 44 volume I found them very comfortable to listen too. Of course I probably have different Opamps than you._

 

Listened on both "High Gain" and "Extra High Gain" as others recommended, 30 hours estimated and always ending up fatigued with slight pain.

 "medium gain and around 44 volume"
 I only see:
 Normal Gain
 High Gain
 Extra High Gain
 And correct me I'm wrong but i think this is the second time you've said so, do you mean medium gain being the lowest? cause 44 volume on high gain is pretty darn loud bud.


----------



## forciano

sorry high gain, i was to lazy to verify what it was called.

 I'm not a fan of fatiguing sound myself, I do not know if I believe in cables changing the sound of headphones, but try using your stock cable again and see if you get listening fatigue.

 Only other solution I see is to get different Opamps, an amp, or a new soundcard.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kumaiti* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Line out is indeed a little better as I mentioned in a previous post. 

 But to me that doesn't work very well because part of the reason I bought the essence instead of some other card was because of Dolby Headphone, which I can't use when plugged to the line out._

 

There was at least one person in this thread (can't remember who now) who was having probs with their ad900. 
 But in the end they were quite happy after some "tweaking", perhaps if you go back through this thread


----------



## [OverDrive]

AsusEssence:
 Mixer Settings Essence 100% channel (right/left) 
 adjusting the volume from the Gain Asus/OS
 NO DSP active
 PCM 44.1 or 96 kz

 Foobar:
 volume-19db 
 Wasapi ms 50 (works on medium high)
 Asio ms 80 (works on the Middle Bass) 
 24 bits 

 DSP manager: 
 Adavanced limiter 
 Resampler (SOX) 

 Try to see if the sound eases on your headphones.


----------



## Audi4ever

SOS SOS

 Got my ST card today and i can barly hear the music because of noise

 Robcix walif and the other expert, plzzzz help me

 The only adjustment i have done is setting spif out to pcm


----------



## Ra97oR

How is it connected?


----------



## Audi4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ra97oR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How is it connected?_

 

Thanks for your replies

 Its connected as with the realtek inboard soundcard, with spif cable to the receiver, i only moved the spif cable from the inboard card to the STs spif out

 This card is probarly fu kked?


----------



## kumaiti

Got a pair of OPA2227 today. Sound better with the AD900 though I think a few more days are necessary to give a final answer.


----------



## Ra97oR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audi4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for your replies

 Its connected as with the realtek inboard soundcard, with spif cable to the receiver, i only moved the spif cable from the inboard card to the STs spif out

 This card is probarly fu kked?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Have you disabled the onboard though the BIOS? That might be a problem.


----------



## Audi4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ra97oR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you disabled the onboard though the BIOS? That might be a problem._

 

Yes i have, and also removed the drivers.

 As i said i used the same cable as with the realtek, but the spifout in the ST didnt work as it did with the realtek, so i changed to RCA cable between the ST and my receivers CD input, and voila everthing worked fine. So tomorrow i have to buy an optical cable to get adventage of dolby digital. 

 I am impressed so far...and the missing bass with HD650 is also gone. I had never thought the HD 650 could produce so much bass, is almost sounds like D5000/7000
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Could i damage the Denon AH-D7000 if i use high gain?


----------



## freestyler

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[OverDrive]* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AsusEssence:
 Mixer Settings Essence 100% channel (right/left) 

 DSP manager: 
 Adavanced limiter 
_

 

So actually using 2 limiters?
 How does that sound? (i'm not on my pc for few days)


----------



## Ra97oR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audi4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes i have, and also removed the drivers.

 As i said i used the same cable as with the realtek, but the spifout in the ST didnt work as it did with the realtek, so i changed to RCA cable between the ST and my receivers CD input, and voila everthing worked fine. So tomorrow i have to buy an optical cable to get adventage of dolby digital. 

 I am impressed so far...and the missing bass with HD650 is also gone. I had never thought the HD 650 could produce so much bass, is almost sounds like D5000/7000
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Could i damage the Denon AH-D7000 if i use high gain?_

 

Glad its fixed, well partly.

 On the gain issues, I would think you will damage your ears well before the headphones itself. If high gain have a volume setting you are comfortable with, I doubt that it will damage it, just look out for volume changes.


----------



## Audi4ever

"Make sure you enable WASAPI (if you're using win7 or vista) or ASIO for your soundcard and foobar or whatever you use to play music with. I found this makes a difference. And (providing you've got it bit-perfect) set your sampling rate to 44.1 khz for music/mp3 files in the xonar control panel. 
 "quote

 What does "WASAPI" and "ASIO" means?, and where do i find it in Win 7?

 Thanks in advance


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audi4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What does "WASAPI" and "ASIO" means?, and where do i find it in Win 7?

 Thanks in advance_

 


foobar2000: Components Repository - WASAPI output support
 Download extract file to foobar2000 > components, make sure foobar is closed, open foobar select Output "Output Devices" then click on "WASAPI : Speakers" apply, OK.

 Follow up:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kuze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Listened on both "High Gain" and "Extra High Gain" as others recommended, 30 hours estimated and always ending up fatigued with slight pain._

 

Figured out whats causing listening fatigue, turned out it wasn't the card after all but the headphones, being new they were vice griping cutting off circulation to my ears, followed this guide: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/hd6...98/index2.html, with a few hours of Pink-noise burn-in and all is well.


----------



## ROBSCIX

So after everything, it was your headphones?
 Well you did mention your entire system possibly needed burn-in. Oh well atleast you got it all figured out and fixed.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audi4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes i have, and also removed the drivers.

 As i said i used the same cable as with the realtek, but the spifout in the ST didnt work as it did with the realtek, so i changed to RCA cable between the ST and my receivers CD input, and voila everthing worked fine. So tomorrow i have to buy an optical cable to get adventage of dolby digital. 

 I am impressed so far...and the missing bass with HD650 is also gone. I had never thought the HD 650 could produce so much bass, is almost sounds like D5000/7000
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Could i damage the Denon AH-D7000 if i use high gain?_

 

Dolby Digital encoding would not be an advantage when using this card.
 This card has high quality DAC's and unless you are using a very high end receiver using S/pdif output might actually be a downgrade.

 If you are using RCA analog connections, I would think this would give you the best sound possible. By all means try S/pdif and use your ears to decide, if you don't have the H6 card then you may need to use DDL for surround sound.

 I hope I explained it properly.


----------



## Audi4ever

Kuze;6541891 said:
			
		

> foobar2000: Components Repository - WASAPI output support
> Download extract file to foobar2000 > components, make sure foobar is closed, open foobar select Output "Output Devices" then click on "WASAPI : Speakers" apply, OK.
> 
> Many thanks for your replies
> ...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Foobar is a media player that many around here use to play different media files.


----------



## Audi4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dolby Digital encoding would not be an advantage when using this card.
 This card has high quality DAC's and unless you are using a very high end receiver using S/pdif output might actually be a downgrade.

 If you are using RCA analog connections, I would think this would give you the best sound possible. By all means try S/pdif and use your ears to decide, if you don't have the H6 card then you may need to use DDL for surround sound.

 I hope I explained it properly._

 

Many thanks for your replies

 Yes, you explained it very well, ever to me.

 The dac is probarly ok in my receiver as it was the flagship(905) some time back. 

 To take adventage of PC games that use DD i have to connect with spif between the ST and the receiver. But then you do that you also uses the receivers dacs?. 

 I use both analog and spif, and it sounds beutifully, no matter signal.

 I dont need the H6 card as the receiver do all processing if i am correct


----------



## ROBSCIX

Well if your card had the H6 DAC expansion board then you could connect up using a 5.1 system to receiver/speakers.

 Anytime you are using S/Pdif output you are using the DAC's in the next device.

 Glad I could help.


----------



## Audi4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well if your card had the H6 DAC expansion board then you could connect up using a 5.1 system to receiver/speakers.

 Anytime you are using S/Pdif output you are using the DAC's in the next device.

 Glad I could help._

 

Thanks again

 Yes you are very helpfull. As i am noob i realy need ppl like you to enjoy this card as max.

 As i said my receiver do all the digital processing, so i quess it does the same processing to the ST with spif(optical cable) as it does with my BD player and PS3?

 BTW i am very impressed with the ST so far , with both HP amp and ordinary stereo listning through analog and digital, not to meantion that the DD games have got a new life

 I use a 7.1 system and then i enable dolby digital live in the ST panel my receiver says dolby digital so i quess my receiver do the processing work.

 So i dont see any benefit with a H6 card


----------



## ROBSCIX

The benefit comes if the ST w/ H6 card has higher quality DAC's in comparison to the receiver. In many cases low to mid grade and even some high grade receivers have lower grade S/Pdif input sections in comprison to many modern internal/external sound sources. 

 Add in the fact that Dolby Digital Live is a lossy compression and you are losing even more possible quality. You have stereo through analog and surround through DDL so yes the receiver is processing the Dolby Digital stream. It is a posibility that using an H6 to discrete analog inputs (if you have them) on the receiver would produce higher sound quality. It is just a maybe though without checking out the DAC's etc.


----------



## Audi4ever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The benefit comes if the ST w/ H6 card has higher quality DAC's in comparison to the receiver. In many cases low to mid grade and even some high grade receivers have lower grade S/Pdif input sections in comprison to many modern internal/external sound sources. 

 Add in the fact that Dolby Digital Live is a lossy compression and you are losing even more possible quality. You have stereo through analog and surround through DDL so yes the receiver is processing the Dolby Digital stream. It is a posibility that using an H6 to discrete analog inputs (if you have them) on the receiver would produce higher sound quality. It is just a maybe though without checking out the DAC's etc._

 

Many thanks again for a very good explanation

 Seems like i learned something new again today. Then using the PS3 and the Blue ray player with HDMI connection and the Xbox 360 with optical connection, do i use a lossy compresson for this units to?
 Anyway here its the data for my receiver

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/products/pro...n_5748504.html


----------



## rx7_fan

When is the release date for this thing? I'm so excited to get one!


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rx7_fan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When is the release date for this thing? I'm so excited to get one!_

 

Lolz.


----------



## rx7_fan

Oops thought we were talking about the Xense


----------



## OpTicaL

Still no word on the H6 card?


----------



## ROBSCIX

The H6 card has been seen in some shops but they are being released very slowly.


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The H6 card has been seen in some shops but they are being released very slowly._

 

Truthfully i wouldn't even bother investing in an H6 add-on it should've came standard with the ST, that's like 100 bucks when i could divert the money else where like good receiver with spdif, or towards Xense which comes with full surround.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kuze* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Truthfully i wouldn't even bother investing in an H6 add-on it should've came standard with the ST, that's like 100 bucks when i could divert the money else where like good receiver with spdif, or towards Xense which comes with full surround._

 

Well I guess it just depends on what your needs are. I don't think it shoudl have come standard as not everbody wants the analog surround options.

 You would need a very high end receiver to have a S/Pdif input section that would surpass the DAC quality of most modern soundcards.
 With most modern cards from the various companies, using S/pdif for surround is actually a downgrade. Not to mention DDL and DTS on other cards is a lossy compression routine so you lose more quality just from using them.
 That is not to say the receiver is bad, just in many cases the DAC used is of lower grade then what is found on most modern soundcards. Of course it depends on the units being tested.


----------



## jalyst

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audi4ever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Many thanks again for a very good explanation

 Seems like i learned something new again today. Then using the PS3 and the Blue ray player with HDMI connection and the Xbox 360 with optical connection, do i use a lossy compresson for this units to?
 Anyway here its the data for my receiver

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/products/pro...n_5748504.html_

 


 You don't buy this card if you're planning to use your AVR as your primary analogue-out source.
 You buy if you intend to use it as your primary analogue-out source; both stereo or 7.1 (if you can buy the h6 where you are, you can in Oz)

 S/PDIF has insufficient bandwidth for the higher definition audio formats around now. (DTS-MA, TrueHD)
 The best it can do is DD and DTS 5.1....
 And you cannot use HDMI to send HD audio from your PS3 to the Essence, so it can then do the DAC.
 If you want HD audio from you PS3, you will have to bit-stream or send multi-ch PCM to your AVR.
 The Xbox can only do HD analogue out, it can't send multi-ch PCM or bit-stream to an AVR for it to do decode & DAC.
 Both the Xbox and PS3 support S/PDIF, so anything HD is re-encoded into lower-definition DD or DTS 5.1.

 But there is no easy way to capture this S/PDIF output on a win 7 PC nowadays...
 There are some possibilities that I intend to investigate further later, but it's a low priority for me atm.
 Being unable to capture DTS-MA or TrueHD via HDMI or S/PDIF is not a big loss anyway 
 As there's still many games/moves that only use DD or DTS 5.1....
 If you want to bit-stream HD A/V from your PC to an AVR, you need a graphics or sound card that can do this.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes and the DD and DTS is lossy when using encoders because the audio needs compression to fit within the limited bandwidth of S/Pdif.

 An ST would make a great analog source to a receiver, providing you're using analog connections between the units. If you are looking for support for DTS-HDMA, DD+.D-TrueHA then you need an HDMI based card.


----------



## audionewbieyao

From a different view point...

 If your AVR's DAC section just so so quality, perhaps Xonar ST + H6 can provide better results in terms of audio quality.

 An AVR is essentially DAC + AMP, a sound card is a DAC, so you're comparing the DAC of them...


----------



## goblinEye

Here's a question for any takers:

 If I want to run primarily high-quality audio (music) out of 5.1 using the H6, does it matter whether its run from an ST or a HDAV1.3?

 In other words, if I am ignoring the quality of the front outs, does the mother card give the daughter card any advantage, or just pass the signal.

 I thought I read that the H6 has its own DACs. In that case it might be price-availability beneficial to just get a HDAV1.3 with a bundled H6.

 But what do you think?

 (This of course assumes that I can somehow use some ASIO channel reassignment to avoid Front-L and Front-R)


----------



## shimm

You only need HDAV1.3 if you gonna bitstream HD sound from movies in digital via HDMI. If you prefer analog output you'll get better results with ST+H6 cause ST has a better DAC (1792). And yes, H6 has 3 two-channel DACs 1796 onboard.


----------



## giedrys

What happened to those new superdrivers?


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *giedrys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What happened to those new superdrivers?_

 

Same, (desperate), question!


----------



## RicHSAD

Last I heard I think they were planned for sometime this month, but don't quote me on that.


----------



## goblinEye

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shimm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You only need HDAV1.3 if you gonna bitstream HD sound from movies in digital via HDMI. If you prefer analog output you'll get better results with ST+H6 cause ST has a better DAC (1792). And yes, H6 has 3 two-channel DACs 1796 onboard._

 


 That is definitely a good point about the quality of the ST output.

 What I'm contemplating is a little weird.

 I'm thinking about only using the analog outputs from the H6 and not from the main card.

 So I'm wondering in that rather unusual case if anyone can think of a reason why HDAV1.3 would not be equivalent to ST (except cheaper).

 I understand that I would be loosing the advantage of the ST main outs (Front-L and Front-R). I was just unsure if there might be some other advantage that the mother card might give the daughter card, although I suspect that there is not.


----------



## shimm

New driver released: ftp://ftp.asus.com.tw/pub/ASUS/Audio...ar_Essence_ST/
 seems Beta.


----------



## shimm

goblinEye, you better ask here ASUSTeK Computer Inc.-Forum-


----------



## hellenic vanagon

New drivers ST (W XP) first impressions:
 it automatically recognizes the bit rate. The master volume hasn't dissapear as it has to. It is still there.

 Are these correct or I missing something? (Driver number: PCI-ST-100423-5.12.8.17731(XP-ER-03)_ForASIO2.2)


----------



## freestyler

I just installed the drivers.
 I don't see any new sample rates to choose on the driver control panel like 88.2 khz etc.
 Any special setting you have to do in order to ensure there is auto sample rate matching?
 I just set foobar to use the asus ASIO implementation on the default 24 bit & 10 ms values. (btw there is a 32bit option as well)
 On windows control panel i have 24 bit @ 44.1 and on the drivers panel 48khz.

 My first impression on the first songs is "wow". Certainly something feels different and i found out what it was.
 The new asio driver forces the volume to be on maximum (you can't change the volume from windows anymore). It seems it makes a difference to have the volume on max and change it at foobar, rather than having the volume on mid at windows and max at foobar for example.
 I remember reading that direct sound from windows can be bit-perfect if you set the volume on max.

 Anyway. Using asio doesn't allow you to play from other sources such as firefox etc. Trying to play a youtube video will freeze/loop the sound. (extreme annoying, you have to start a new song immediately or something for it to unfroze.)

 On the first song i played it froze on the first 20 secs. Let's hope it doesn't freeze at random times and at least only when you try to play sound from other sources.


----------



## leeperry

so it's finally got an "auto" sample rate option? it only took 1 year to have it, hopefully it will "work" 

 what happens if you play a 44.1 file in DS, and then simultaneously a 48 file in ASIO?

 do they finally run KS and ASIO in exclusive mode?
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember reading that direct sound from windows can be bit-perfect if you set the volume on max._

 

only true on XP from what Dogbert said.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *freestyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just installed the drivers.
 I don't see any new sample rates to choose on the driver control panel like 88.2 khz etc.
 Any special setting you have to do in order to ensure there is auto sample rate matching?
 I just set foobar to use the asus ASIO implementation on the default 24 bit & 10 ms values. (btw there is a 32bit option as well)
 On windows control panel i have 24 bit @ 44.1 and on the drivers panel 48khz.

 My first impression on the first songs is "wow". Certainly something feels different and i found out what it was.
 The new asio driver forces the volume to be on maximum (you can't change the volume from windows anymore). It seems it makes a difference to have the volume on max and change it at foobar, rather than having the volume on mid at windows and max at foobar for example.
 I remember reading that direct sound from windows can be bit-perfect if you set the volume on max.

 Anyway. Using asio doesn't allow you to play from other sources such as firefox etc. Trying to play a youtube video will freeze/loop the sound. (extreme annoying, you have to start a new song immediately or something for it to unfroze.)

 On the first song i played it froze on the first 20 secs. Let's hope it doesn't freeze at random times and at least only when you try to play sound from other sources._

 

The beta's I was testing work in the same way. You lose control over volume and effects because they influence the signal. You get auto sample rate adjustment for ASIO...it works automatically if you use an ASIO output plugin. The guys that wrote the driver mentioned the bit rates you asked about. Do you have any media of 88.2 or 176? Test them out...
 If you are using ASIO output the card should lock to the new bit rate automatically. The card basically locks into "hifi" mode also as all effects are disabled.
 Glad they are finally available for everybody. 
 Bit perfect output with auto sample rate adjustment has always had one flaw, you can only play on stream at a time! You can go back to the other way, just use output other then ASIO.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hellenic vanagon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_New drivers ST (W XP) first impressions:
 it automatically recognizes the bit rate. The master volume hasn't dissapear as it has to. It is still there.

 Are these correct or I missing something? (Driver number: PCI-ST-100423-5.12.8.17731(XP-ER-03)_ForASIO2.2)_

 

The master volume of the card is still there but if you setup properly you cannot use it at all.

 Use an ASIO output plugin and you will get auto bit rate adjustment.


----------



## leeperry

if those drivers do good, maybe I'll change the .inf file PCIID and use them on the cheapest PCI-E Xonar that does toslink...always nice to have alternatives 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 but I've got a hard time believing that C-Media/Asus are able of perfect drivers...even if they finally got the "auto" sample rate thingie working, they prolly don't do KS/ASIO in exclusive mode or run their driver in realtime priority..


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The master volume of the card is still there but if you setup properly you cannot use it at all.

 Use an ASIO output plugin and you will get auto bit rate adjustment._

 

I 'll check out. 

 Thank you very much!


----------



## kumaiti

I installed the new drivers on Windows 7 (64x) and I second this:
   


> Trying to play a youtube video will freeze/loop the sound. (extreme annoying, you have to start a new song immediately or something for it to unfroze.)


   
  It only happens with flash videos, though. With Windows Media Player it simply gives a "Device not available" error message (no freezing on Foobar) and on Media Player Classic it re-reoutes the sound to the digital out.
   
  And although I would bet on placebo and the higher volume, I have also noticed a little improvement in the SQ.
   
  Another small perk I noticed is that the physical input that used to appear as "microphone" in the Xonar Control Panel now appears as "Line In". The same in the "Recording devices" windows menu. Also, it seems that it doesn't turn on "Monitoring" automatically as before whenever any sound played in that input.
   
  Considering 95% of my music is 44.1 anyway, I am not sure the annoyance with flash videos crashing the player is worth the new features.


----------



## ROBSCIX

If you were trying to play multiple stream then this might be the cause of your issue.  The one glaring flaw with bitperfect/auto sample rate adjustment is you can only play one stream at a time.  If you try two the driver lock.  While it is nice to have no resampling, it is also nice to have it in certain circumstances for compatibility reasons.
   
  However, as you said, if your music is all 44.1 leave the card set for 44.1 and you have bitperfect audio anyway.


----------



## kumaiti

As I said, to me the "freeze/loop sound" issue only happens when a flash video tries to play.
   
  Otherwise, it just behaves as it used to before updating the driver and changing the Foobar source to ASIO: foobar keeps working ok and the secondary source simply doesn't play or gives an error message.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


 

 Ο.k.! You are absolutely right! It works perfectly!


----------



## jalyst

I wonder how this is going to compare? ...
  http://vr-zone.com/articles/vr-zone-exclusive-creative-sound-blaster-x-fi-titanium-hd-previewed/9020-1.html
  Cant stand creative software but maybe they'll get it right this time?


----------



## ROBSCIX

I guess we will have to wait and see.


----------



## scorpionro

Not sure if anyone else tried AD797BRs as I/V on the ST, but I did and ( at least on my card ) they were oscillating ( they were overheating and I could hear a lot of hissing in the headphones ) ... I hope I didn't damage the card


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





scorpionro said:


> Not sure if anyone else tried AD797BRs as I/V on the ST, but I did and ( at least on my card ) they were oscillating ( they were overheating and I could hear a lot of hissing in the headphones ) ... I hope I didn't damage the card


 

 The card should be alright.  There are ways to stabalize the opamps but you will have to adds some components, either resistors or capacitors or both.


----------



## scorpionro

I put back the LT1364s and everything is back to normal   ... I'm not good with soldering. I got the 797s from a chinese seller ( premounted on the adapter )


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





scorpionro said:


> I put back the LT1364s and everything is back to normal   ... I'm not good with soldering. I got the 797s from a chinese seller ( premounted on the adapter )


 


 I didn't think you would have damaged the card.  The units may be faulty or they may just be unstable in that circuit.  You can always test them in the buffer opamp if you have speakers connected.  I used an AD797 for buffer for a test for another and they work in that position.


----------



## kumaiti

After a few days, I have to say that the new ASIO drivers are NOT working properly. At least, not in my system.
   
  If I just boot the computer and don't open anything else, foobar works using ASIO as the output, no problem.
   
   
  If I open anything that is flash-related, it crashes and keeps looking a few frames of the song.
   
  If I click STOP then PLAY (or just doubleclick the song) it won't work again until I reboot. I get a "Hardware not present" message on foobar.
   
   
  Is anyone having the same issue?? I hoe they fix that when they move from BETA do FINAL...


----------



## isaac1417

STX is pretty hot for hi-end music listening, the stereo is crispy and clear.


----------



## Mexter111

Hello There.
   
  Week ago i bought a Xonar Essence St.
   
  At first id like to give you a question:
  Where in control panel in win xp i can find a bitrate settings?IMO i was looking everywhere and didnt find anything. Only in foobar but i want to set bitrate for everything on 24 but dont know where to do it.
   
  My first impression was:
  Amazing and clear music.
   
  What do you think about Music mode with dolby pro logic IIx and virtual speaker? In some tracks i hear deeper music than hi-fi  mode but almost always have turned on hi-fi with flat eq.


----------



## ROBSCIX

There is no bit rate setting, just frequency.


----------



## Mexter111

No. Many guys in this topic wrote settings they have on computer and card and they wrote that they can set a bitrate in control panel and also in foobar.
   
  I had 5cards in my live and all have a bitrate settings in control panel. Xonar Essence also have to have it.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





mexter111 said:


> No. Many guys in this topic wrote settings they have on computer and card and they wrote that they can set a bitrate in control panel and also in foobar.
> 
> I had 5cards in my live and all have a bitrate settings in control panel. Xonar Essence also have to have it.


 


 Yes, for certain output plugins.  However, if you are using the newer Betas and ASIO output the card adjusts automatically.


----------



## Mexter111

And another one question to you guys.
   
  In far future im going to buy a sennheiser hd 600. So far havent any headphone amp and here's my question.
  Will be a good choice to buy atm hd 600? Can Xonar Essence St drive this headphones with a good results?
  Maybe ill just buy hd 595? Its much cheaper but mby it will be better for this sound car?
  So hd600 so far with xonar essence st (but maybe for few months i will buy amp) or cheaper headphones?


----------



## ROBSCIX

The ST can drive them from an epectrical point of view, I would suggest that if you are going for expensive premium grade headphones an amplifer that is equal in quality would be your best best.
  I was always of the opinion, the DAC is the strong point of this card.  The can amp while powerful can be surpassed.....


----------



## scorpionro

I was trying to find out if any of the effects from the Xonar CPanel ( I set Headphone for analog and PCM for digital ) have any influence on digital output and I couldn't really figure it out ... as far as I can tell they only affect the line out and not the digital output ( enabling / disabling any of the effects did have a noticeable effect on the headphones, but it didn't seem to do anything on the digital out - I'm not complaining, it's exactly what I would have wished for  ); does anyone have any idea if it really is so ?


----------



## DaLiu

I just ordered Xonar Essence ST and I will have it on friday. The problem is that half on my time I listen music on PC and half playin games, if I install the latest beta drivers can I play games with no problems? I just read that the volume will be stuck to the maximum with the latest beta drivers, I am wondering if this is a issue if I will play games? I already have a Creative X-FI, do you think I can use both audio cards in the computer, X-FI for gaming and ST for music and movies? I'm quite noob on this things but I own a pair of AKG 601 headphones and I am looking to buy some Sennheiser HD 595 mostly for games. Could you please advise me what I should do and what drivers I should install for the Xonar Essence ST on Win 7 x86, the betas or the final ones which are little older?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





daliu said:


> I just ordered Xonar Essence ST and I will have it on friday. The problem is that half on my time I listen music on PC and half playin games, if I install the latest beta drivers can I play games with no problems? I just read that the volume will be stuck to the maximum with the latest beta drivers, I am wondering if this is a issue if I will play games? I already have a Creative X-FI, do you think I can use both audio cards in the computer, X-FI for gaming and ST for music and movies? I'm quite noob on this things but I own a pair of AKG 601 headphones and I am looking to buy some Sennheiser HD 595 mostly for games. Could you please advise me what I should do and what drivers I should install for the Xonar Essence ST on Win 7 x86, the betas or the final ones which are little older?


 

 No, the bitperfect with autosample rate adjustment is only for ASIO.  It is up to you which you install, that latest drivers are betas so they can produce issues, I tested them out for many months and they are very stable in comparison to some other drivers I have seen.


----------



## DaLiu

I have a noobish question for you guys, I have a Zero DAC and it was broken, I believe I repair it but I really dont know if is working and I want to test it by connecting to ASUS Xonar Essence ST, so I plug the cable in optical out from ST using coaxial cable and put in the Zero DAC, I set coaxial + phone on Zero DAC but I dont know what exactly should I set in the Xonar software, could you tell me please how should be the settings if I want to connect a device using Digital S/PDIF Output. Thank you!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Set "PCM" and whatever sampling rate you want.


----------



## AhhHoNG

May i know what does the buffer or i/v opamp do? Meaning what does the buffer and i/v do to the sound. Another question is, does the ST has any converter adapter for 3.5mm to 6.3mm. seems like the mic is 6.3mm too. my speakers are using 3.5mm and so is my mic. Thanks


----------



## atistatic

hi, i've got a dude? ST too have Unbalance Output as STX?


----------



## SDDL-UP

I've finally got an ST on order - I can't wait!
   
  I had a terrible time trying to decide as there are so many great options for the consumer.  I had narrowed it down to the Asus Xonar Essence ST or STX, Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 Advance Deluxe Edition, or the Onkyo SE-200.  I may still get another card just to try out, the Audiotrak is reasonable enough.


----------



## isaac1417

Is Xonar Xense available in Germany? I think it has not been released yet...


----------



## SDDL-UP

Well I received my Essence ST in the mail on Thursday and I was a bit surprised to see it is made in China... I believe the Essence STX at least was originally made in Taiwan.
   
  I hope it sounds good though.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Quote:


daliu said:


> I just ordered Xonar Essence ST and I will have it on friday. The problem is that half on my time I listen music on PC and half playin games, if I install the latest beta drivers can I play games with no problems? I just read that the volume will be stuck to the maximum with the latest beta drivers, I am wondering if this is a issue if I will play games? I already have a Creative X-FI, do you think I can use both audio cards in the computer, X-FI for gaming and ST for music and movies? I'm quite noob on this things but I own a pair of AKG 601 headphones and I am looking to buy some Sennheiser HD 595 mostly for games. Could you please advise me what I should do and what drivers I should install for the Xonar Essence ST on Win 7 x86, the betas or the final ones which are little older?


 

 I'm using the latest stable release and having no problems using it with a x-fi. Windows 7 handles multiple sound cards pretty well, screenshot: http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6691/soundq.jpg.
   
  I have a few questions on my settings, are the ST control panel settings right for the best sound quality (only used for music)? All my music is 44.1 KHz, the mixer is at 76 (I forgot why it should be at 76), and the equalizer is flat. I'm using an AKG K701 with it (impedance should be right). I'm using winamp with the default output plug-in right now because I'm not sure which is the best one to use and where to get it. I had a KS output plug-in when I had Win XP but I couldn't get it to work with Win 7. I would prefer to lose volume control. Any help is appreciated, thanks!


----------



## audionewbieyao

I guess it's designed in Taiwan and made in China, since Asus is essentially a Taiwanese company.
  It does sound good for sure.
  
  Quote: 





sddl-up said:


> Well I received my Essence ST in the mail on Thursday and I was a bit surprised to see it is made in China... I believe the Essence STX at least was originally made in Taiwan.
> 
> I hope it sounds good though.


----------



## cheradu

Hy all.
 i think i have a problem and i was wondering if i have done something wrong or...
 Setup:
  - essence ST (beta drivers)
  - foobar + asio (32bit 10ms)
   - output: bluesky exo
  
  I have just received 3xopa2137p. I swapped them with the jrc's (the buffer opamp was lm4562 stock).The problem is that if i set the volume to 0db in foobar i get a crackling sound. If i set it to -5db(or lower) the problem disappears.
 i checked if the opamps have been installed correctly and they seemed ok.
 The sound i got using this setup was pretty bad - the sound is wider and i can hear almost everything but i have no bass and the mids are pretty lame

 I then used the jrc's as I/V and the opa2137P as buffer. The sound is .... i don;t know how to put it....it's wider and the sounds get separated but i think it lost some of the sharpness.
  The crackling sound now appears if i set the volume on foobar at more than -3db.
   
  Has anyone encountered such a problem with the OPA2137? Have i damaged them while i was installing them?
  i have not burrend in the opamps.(could this be the issue? - i really don't think so).


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





isaac1417 said:


> Is Xonar Xense available in Germany? I think it has not been released yet...


 

 AFAIK, the card has not been mass marketed as of yet.
  Sounds great based on what I heard.


----------



## ROBSCIX

For those interested, Newegg has started seeling the H6 expansion board for the ST for $49.  I know some of you were waiting for it's release in the mainstream.


----------



## jalyst

geez, took em long enough!


----------



## ChinaJay

ROBSCIX,
   
  Are you going to be finalizing your review of the Essence ST anytime soon? I am really looking forward to your conclusions and opinions of different opamps.
  I have already bought the card and have been using it for a few months but haven't gone ahead and changed any of the opamps yet.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## jalyst

+1
   
  would love to see this also, only if robscix can spare the time of course!


----------



## giedrys

It's been more than 3 months since asus posted these lousy beta drivers for ST. And nothing since then! What a bunch of lazy arses.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





chinajay said:


> ROBSCIX,
> 
> Are you going to be finalizing your review of the Essence ST anytime soon? I am really looking forward to your conclusions and opinions of different opamps.
> I have already bought the card and have been using it for a few months but haven't gone ahead and changed any of the opamps yet.
> ...


 

 The review was released a little while back.  I never added a bunch of views on opamps, just some general ideas and options.
  If your interested have a look here-> Review
  To note, some never change their opamps, they find them a good match for the gear they already have.  Opamps are very personal to your gear and your tastes.


----------



## freestyler

A guy on asus forums released a modded driver for ST based from the xense one.
  When running with the new asio  you don't get the looping sound "bug" when you open a direct sound stream like a youtube video or games.
   
  Also i tested the mic monitor and it seems to me that there is almost no delay so people with guitars / synths try them yourself to see if the delay is bearable.
   
  http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?id=20100712022314656&board_id=21&model=Xonar+Essence+ST&page=1&SLanguage=en-us


----------



## hellenic vanagon

A very intresting review!
   
  Is there any jitter measurment, especially to see the 31% jitter reduction, in comparison to STX?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





hellenic vanagon said:


> A very intresting review!
> 
> Is there any jitter measurment, especially to see the 31% jitter reduction, in comparison to STX?


 
  Jitter is very hard to measure accurately


----------



## freestyler

Link for the drivers i talked few posts earlier: http://www.mediafire.com/?i6wz3y8cfnhusn2
   
  It's easier to switch from ASIO to direct sound without problems.
 For example let's have you have a VOIP program open like ventrilo. Now you can't start foobar with asio cause you get "can't open device" (or smth like that) so you had to close ventrilo first and then open foobar. When u want to use ventrilo again, you have to close foobar first.
 Also if you were playing music through the new bit-perfect asio and then opened a youtube video or a game, the sound would get stuck on an infinite loop (which is extremely annoying when you are listening in high volumes) and then you have to stop the foobar manually.
   
  All in all it's less hassle free to "play" with the bit-perfect ASIO, resulting in a better experience.
  Also you get the new red colored theme control panel and the asio properties are available on the right click menu of the tray icon.
  Add in the mix that the delay when monitoring is lower i think and those drivers easily surpass the stock ones.
   
  Also the creator said something about preparing new modded drivers. So thanks again to him.


----------



## dex85

it's sad that some people have to do what Asus should have done a long time ago. i honestly don't think they will release final bit-perfect drivers this year, given how long it took them just to release beta drivers. hopefully i'm wrong.


----------



## jalyst

They're really "dragging their feet" on the software side....
  Then again their only competitor with resources for soft-dev beyond generic dvrs are creative, so it makes you realise why they're so slack


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote: 





robscix said:


> Jitter is very hard to measure accurately


 

 Τhank you ROBSCIX!


----------



## fufula

Quote: 





freestyler said:


> Link for the drivers i talked few posts earlier: http://www.mediafire.com/?i6wz3y8cfnhusn2


 
   
  Is there an XP x86 version available?


----------



## giedrys

What I like about these new modified drivers is the ability to play 88.2 and 176.4khz files thru bit perfect ASIO. Other than that, something's wrong. I gear a lot of noises, clicks etc. during playback.


----------



## ROBSCIX

,,then yes something is wrong.  If you just let music play without touching the system you have pops and clicks etc.?


----------



## joms

Hi may i ask a noob question? Do I need to buy the Xonar  Essence ST plus H6 daughter card if i plan to have a 2.1 system only? The STX cannot do 2.1 right?
   
  Also, if I am ONLY to use the Asus Xonar ST on my 2.1 (Audioengine 2 speakers plus velodyne impact 10 subs), then i should not worry about upgrading the I/V opamp as i've read that it is only for the headphones? What I should only upgrade is the buffer opamp.. .right? Its just that I see a lot of people who uprades all 3 opamps. Do all of you guys use headphones and bookshelf speakers?
   
  Anyway, in this regard, whats the best opamp for you (i know its subjective but I live in the Philippines and there is no opamp nor xonar card here and I only order in the internet and have it delivered which takes a month+ so I rely mostly on reviews). Anyway, I'm interested in a sweet/dark/laid back for my front speakers and a good bass (subwoofer). Jazz/pop/piano/vocals are my interest. I dont play techno/rock or the like, Hmmm another thing, does the subwoofer have its own opamp in the H6 card?  If so, whats the best opamp for it? I'm not interested at all on the center/rear/side/headphone channels.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote: 





joms said:


> Hi may i ask a noob question? Do I need to buy the Xonar  Essence ST plus H6 daughter card if i plan to have a 2.1 system only? The STX cannot do 2.1 right?
> 
> Also, if I am ONLY to use the Asus Xonar ST on my 2.1 (Audioengine 2 speakers plus velodyne impact 10 subs), then i should not worry about upgrading the I/V opamp as i've read that it is only for the headphones? What I should only upgrade is the buffer opamp.. .right? Its just that I see a lot of people who uprades all 3 opamps. Do all of you guys use headphones and bookshelf speakers?
> 
> ...


 

 You need a lot of reading. Both the ST AND STX are 2.1 stereo card, the ST + H6 daughter card is only for surround
   
  From my understanding the I/V is needed for both RCA out and headphone out, the I/V stage is to change current the DAC spit out and convert it to voltage before going to buffer. So after the I/V stage it split to the buffer and/or the headphone amp
   
  Read this thread and the STX tweaking/ Q&A impression thread for some opamp recommendation


----------



## dex85

yes, not much of a competition drivers wise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  also Asus is wide oriented in IT market, audio represents a tiny portion of market to them, so i wouldn't be surprised if they didn't give much resources and attention into drivers development (i imagine they are heavily undermanned in that department).
  Quote: 





jalyst said:


> They're really "dragging their feet" on the software side....
> Then again their only competitor with resources for soft-dev beyond generic dvrs are creative, so it makes you realise why they're so slack


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





apocalypsee said:


> You need a lot of reading. Both the ST AND STX are 2.1 stereo card, the ST + H6 daughter card is only for surround
> 
> From my understanding the I/V is needed for both RCA out and headphone out, the I/V stage is to change current the DAC spit out and convert it to voltage before going to buffer. So after the I/V stage it split to the buffer and/or the headphone amp
> 
> Read this thread and the STX tweaking/ Q&A impression thread for some opamp recommendation


 
  2.0 is stereo
  2.1 refers to included subwoofer, which could be used on these cards IF, the subwoofer was part of the speakers system and didn't require a dedicated output. 
  Many soundcards overlook TRUE 2.1 support.  Meaning a set of stereo speakers along with a dedicated subwoofer output.  Even cards that support 5.1  don't seem to properly support true 2.1 systems.  It is a shame, but we may see some future cards with the proper support for 2.1 systems.


----------



## mojave

Quote: 





joms said:


> Hi may i ask a noob question? Do I need to buy the Xonar  Essence ST plus H6 daughter card if i plan to have a 2.1 system only? The STX cannot do 2.1 right?


 
   
  That is correct, you do need the ST with the H6. You also need to set the input and output in the Xonar control panel to 5.1. This will allow you to use the card's bass management to redirect the bass to the subwoofer output. If you are watching movies, you need to downmix with your decoder (ffdshow, for example) to 2.1. If you are gaming and only want 2.1, you need change the speaker setup in Vista or Windows 7 control panel so that it is set to 2.1. You do this by configuring in the control panel to 5.1, but then turning the Center and Surround channels off by unchecking their boxes.


----------



## germanium

Robscix is correct you do not need the H6 card for 2.1 speakers. I'm currently running a 2.1 setup myself on an Asus Essense STX card which has no analog out option for surround & it works quite well. He is also correct in the card not truely supporting 2.1speakers with a seperate feed to the sub. With anything less than 4.0 out when using the H6 card on the ST you would be wasting your money on the H6 card unless you plan on updating to 4.0,5.1 or 7.1.
   
  The trick that Mojove talking about may work with videos that have a seperate sub channel but probably not for music so to me it is not practical as most music does not have a seperate feed for a subwoofer & if hooked up in the way it would be used for video you would end up with anemic bass from the sattelites with music. Hook the 2.1 speaker up though as you would use the with music & set your video programs to feed the 2.0 signal instead of the 5.1 & you will have the best possible of both worlds for 2.1 speakers. With the video program set to 2.0 you will probably get the dolby surround mix which through high quality speakers & amps still gives a good impression of surround as there is phase information in that that would give a much wider sound picture in some situations than the way that Mojave suggested. Dolby suuround uses phase & amplitude to steer the channel & this shows through even with 2.0 & 2.1 speakers. The impression of surround is not as pronounced as with having all the speaker it is designed for but the effect in some cases has a more natural feel as it is not as overdone with only 2 main speakers.


----------



## mojave

You aren't wasting your money on anything less than 4.0 when using the H6 card. I do 95% of my listening to music and use the subwoofer output of the H6 card. I obviously couldn't do this with just the ST so the H6 is well worth it. I use the high quality bass management in J. River Media Center, but one could just use the drivers bass management using the settings I gave above for a 2.1 output when listening to music. If you are using your Essence ST in a computer that is your HTPC or preamp/processor, then you probably need the H6.
   
  The scenarios when you can get 2.1 and just use the ST are when you have powered speakers/subwoofer combo like the ones from Klipsch or Logitech. These have the crossover built into their amplifier and it redirects the bass to the "subwoofer." Also, if your subwoofer has high level speaker outputs, you can first send the signal from your amplifier to the sub and the on the speakers.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, that is the other use for the H6 if you do not want full surround is use it for a dedicated subwoofer output.
  When speaking with various companies I always suggest offering user TRUE 2.1 options for users as 2.1 seems to be a very popular configuration.
  using high quality stereo speakers but also have the subwoofer for the lower end of the spectrum or for bass reinforcement.
  You may see this option on  a few cards in the futre.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Please delete!


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Very intresting!
   
   





  
  Quote: 





robscix said:


> Yes, that is the other use for the H6 if you do not want full surround is use it for a dedicated subwoofer output.
> When speaking with various companies I always suggest offering user TRUE 2.1 options for users as 2.1 seems to be a very popular configuration.
> using high quality stereo speakers but also have the subwoofer for the lower end of the spectrum or for bass reinforcement.
> You may see this option on  a few cards in the futre.


----------



## joms

umm i kinda got lost there. hehe. sorry for being such a noob. Can you kindly answer again these questions or check if I got it right:
   
  My speakers = AudioEngine 2 (http://www.amazon.com/Audioengine-Powered-Multimedia-Speaker-System/dp/B000VKEFN2/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_c)
   
  My subs = Velodyne Impact 10 (http://www.amazon.com/Velodyne-Impact-10-10-Inch-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B001GON5AG/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1280332749&sr=1-1)
   
Questions:
  1) Can I get this to work as a 2.1 system if I only buy the Asus Xonar Essence ST? If so, how do i make the connections?
   
  2) If not, then how do I make the connections if I get the H6 daughter board? Is it main RCA out (from the xonar ST) to my Audioengine 2 and sub out (from the H6) to my Velodyne Impact 10 subs? If this is the case, I should set my speaker system configuration on my Windows 7 to 2.1 but configure my speakers as 5.1 in Asus' software? Did I get that right? In this case, will the sound still be good? I will use this like 90% music 8% gaming 2%video. As much as possible, I don't want to compromise the sound quality when listening to music.
   
  -------------------------------
   
  3) Will this setup produce much better sound quality than the setup above?
  -Asus Xonar ST RCA out to Audioengine 5
  -Audioengine 5 RCA out to Velodyne Subs
   
  (In this setup, I don't need the H6 anymore right? Only thing is, Audioengine 5 is damn big hehe)
   
  Thanks


----------



## ROBSCIX

You would need the H6 board or an external crossover to get the sub working with just the ST as it is only a stereo card. 
  Some subs allow you to run the signal through first and then to the speakers...not sure if you can do this in your case.


----------



## nwboater

Quote: 





freestyler said:


> A guy on asus forums released a modded driver for ST based from the xense one.
> When running with the new asio  you don't get the looping sound "bug" when you open a direct sound stream like a youtube video or games.
> 
> Also i tested the mic monitor and it seems to me that there is almost no delay so people with guitars / synths try them yourself to see if the delay is bearable.
> ...


 

 Hi,
   
  I'm looking for bit perfect drivers for Assio with XP with the Essence ST & H6. I looked at the ones quoted above and they look like they are for Win7. The only beta drivers I found at the Asus site are for the STx. In fact I couldn't find anything on the ST at the Asus site. Odd!
   
  I'd sure appreciate if anyone has any ideas.
   
  Thanks,
  Rod


----------



## giedrys

Rod,
   
  you can find beta drivers on  Asus UK website:
   
   
  http://uk.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=k8OChreLuh8zgFmQ&templete=2
   
   
  Asus USA apparently doesn't even know that ST exists. Yeah, they're that slow


----------



## nwboater

Quote: 





giedrys said:


> Rod,
> 
> you can find beta drivers on  Asus UK website:
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks very much for the link. I have downloaded them and will install later.
   
  Yeah, hard to believe that Asus USA doesn't know about the ST. Wow!
   
  Rod


----------



## Pennypacker

Hey people,

 First, i'm new here, greetings to all!

 I have read the forum a lot, especially sound cards & headphones. I do(did) a lot of headphone listening via soundcard(s). Lot's of time behind  the pc.
 My soundcard "history":soundblaster->  hercules fortissimo 2-> audigy2-> x-fi-> XonarD2(pci) -->essence ST. Plugged in are:
  Sennh. 595 en (mostly) hd 600. I prefer the pci versions, because i have nothing but (electrical contact) problems with pci-expr 1x/2x-ports (or is this an asus-board problem?)
 I also own a Onk. tsr-607 av receiver. According to my opinion, xonar and the essence are both very good for audio/headphones listening. Lots of (hifi) power.
  I  prefer the headphone-out of the essence over my onkyo headphone-out.
  The essence has very clear highs(and lows, mids, almost everything..), while not being  fatiguing for the ears (at least not w. my sennheisers).
 I can listen hours a day without "ear fatigue"

 This modified xense/essence driver with 32-bit asio and foobar is the best i have heard on the essence. (used to use ks & sometimes wasapi).
 In gaming i found no problems also, so: to the creator of this (modified) driver: thnx for this driver! Good work.


----------



## Dalamar

The ST and STX drivers on the UK site are the same ancient ones on the USA site...
   
  You can find the drivers on the usa site with the search button - ST drivers were there before there were ST's on sale.


----------



## germanium

Quote: 





pennypacker said:


> Sennh. 595 en (mostly) hd 600. I prefer the pci versions, because i have nothing but (electrical contact) problems with pci-expr 1x/2x-ports (or is this an asus-board problem?)


 

 I have the PCI exress version (STX) on a Asus P6T motherboard with no isues at all here. The issues some may be having is that there is a certain amount of slop in the screw holes that are used to mount the mother board. If you are one having this issue you may want to try loosening all the mother board screws 1 turn then inserting the STX card then retighten the screws with the soundcard installed. This will ensure the proper centering of the motherboard to the card slot & may eliminate any contact issues due to missaligned contacts.


----------



## Pennypacker

Hey Germanium,
  thnx for the advice, you are indeed right. i put too few screws in the mobo.
  I will try this.


----------



## csy

[size=small]Many thanks to all who have contributed to this great thread.  My "ST" is now sounding amazing due to several modifications that I would like to share with you.[/size]
   
  [size=small]My setup is an ST with H6 expansion board, using 5.1 analog outputs directly to Rotel power amps (highly modified) and front L+R connected to B&W P5 speakers (with modified crossover).  The PC is running Win7 64bit and I'm using Foobar2000 with ASIO.[/size]
   
  [size=small]Modifications in order of sound quality improvement:[/size]
   
  [size=small]1) Swap-out op-amps (more details below).  This changed the sound from good 2D sound, to being really life-like and natural sounding when implemented in conjunction with the other mods below.[/size]
  [size=small]2) Short-out the output DC-blocking capacitors – tks Germanium[/size]
  [size=small]http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/414322/xonar-essence-st-sneak-peek/1095#post_6325203[/size]
  [size=small]This significantly improved the dynamic range (level-wise) providing a more open airy sound and has the effect of extending the bass and top-end, and improves detail.[/size]
  [size=small]3) Replace the feedback capacitors around the op-amps with high quality capacitors (eg styro’s or silver-mica).  I used 2.2nF styro’s in IV stage and 2.7nF styro’s in buffer stage.  This makes a huge improvement in two areas - firstly it made a massive improvement in soundstage, and secondly the harsh top-end disappeared.  The IV feedback cap replacement made the biggest improvement, with the buffer caps only making a subtle improvement.  This mod is well worth doing, but you need a fine-tip soldering-iron, magnifying-glasses, and a steady hand.[/size]
  [size=small]4) Boosted the op-amp decoupling capacitors by adding 0.1uF double-film MKP’s soldered to underside of PCB.  This works hand-in-hand with the replacement of feedback caps to provide significant improvement in soundstage.  This also resolved a subtle imbalance between left and right channels.  These need to be high quality MKP’s or better to get an improvement.  I initially used Rifa PHE426’s which made very little improvement, but WIMA MKP10’s work very well.[/size]
  [size=small]5) Upgrade the quartz crystal to a high precision oscillator (Vangurad 1ppm).  I copied ‘thoppa’ - tks.[/size]
[size=small]http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/433533/upgrading-the-crystal-x0-on-essence-stx/120#post_6003527[/size]
  [size=small]This significantly improved the detail and I particularly noticed more definition of strings on string instruments.[/size]
  [size=small]6) Re-cap electrolytic caps with higher quality caps.  I used SILMIC-II.  This made a subtle improvement to detail, particularly in the lower mid-range, and really only changed the capacitor sonic signature to the brand of capacitor chosen.  Given the difficulty of soldering the ground-plane through-holes, I do not recommend this unless you are very experienced at soldering and have a temperature controlled iron.  I found I needed a hot tip due to the high melting-point solder and fat-tip (relatively speaking) to avoid the ground-plane ‘sinking’ the heat out of the tip.  I also had to use the trick of heating the wire (not the PCB) in some instances to melt solder buried within the through-hole.[/size]
   
  [size=small]I have not been daring enough to try any power mods, as they look complicated and higher risk of damage.  If there was a readily-available and cheap external +/-12V to 18V PSU, then I would be interested.[/size]
   
  [size=small]This is my subjective comparison of some op-amps.  I found the sonic signature is more pronounced in the IV stage, and less pronounced in the buffer stage, but same fundamental signature in both positions.  Some of these observations only became noticeable after the other board modifications were completed, for example the LME49720NA initially sounded very good on the stock board, but as the board modifications were implemented, the board became more 'revealing' to the limitations of that chip and many others.[/size]
  [size=small]LME49720NA[/size]
  [size=small]I found it sounds compressed (lacks dynamic range) resulting in rolled-off harsh top-end and lacks very lower bass[/size]
  [size=small]LME49720HA[/size]
  [size=small]I found it has good midrange and top-end, but badly lacks bass (as many have mentioned)[/size]
  [size=small]LME49990[/size]
  [size=small]I had good hopes for this chip as it has very good specs and new on the market.  Unfortunately I found it to have rolled-off highs, boomy and excessive upper bass and generally lacked detail and lacked soundstage[/size]
  [size=small]LT1057[/size]
  [size=small]I found it to have good midrange but rolled-off highs and boomy and excessive upper bass.  Soundstage was pronounced in the midrange (only), and has muddy bass.[/size]
  [size=small]OPA1611AID[/size]
  [size=small]Edit: I found this to be a fairly good chip.  The midrange and top-end has good detail and soundstage, however it is overly bright and boarderline harsh sounding making it not so natural sounding, and bass sounds a bit compressed.  Other posts suggest this is a rebadged OPA211.[/size]
  [size=small]LT1028CS8[/size]
  [size=small]I found this chip to be excellent.  This chip is very natural sounding on my system with nothing over-accentuated or lacking.  Excellent dynamic range, detail and soundstage.  I use this chip in the IV and buffer positions.[/size]


----------



## germanium

Found a new mod driver that has bit -perfect ASIO capability without the problems with stability of the beta drivers provided by Asus. Similar to what Daniel K did for Creative ths guy has done for Asus. He has come up with drivers that actually work correctly for the Xonar cards. This is a link to the webpage of the guy that made the mod drivers.http://brainbit.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/


----------



## Steve-o27

@csy: Can you still mount the EMI shield with those SO opamps on adapters?


----------



## germanium

All the specs that I can find on the [size=small]LT1028CS8 indicates that they are single channel opamps which means you would need 2 of them per socket to get stereo. Thier spec look good but being single channel complicaes things a bit. Are you sure the ones you have are dual channel or is there anouther one attached to the back side of the adapter? [/size]
   
  [size=small]Edit. I looked up the model of adapter you are using & they are for 2 single channel opamps with one on top & one on the bottom.[/size]


----------



## genclaymore

Yea I would had used them on my STX if I had 2 more and had another adaptor. Tho it wouldnt fit in both I/Vs sockets any way. So I ordred some LT1036 to see how they are in my I/V with my headphones.


----------



## csy

Quote: 





steve-o27 said:


> @csy: Can you still mount the EMI shield with those SO opamps on adapters?


 


 Yes, the browndog adapters with chips mounted have plenty of clearance with the shield fitted (2 to 3mm).  I'm not using the shield because the replacement electrolytic caps are taller, blocking the shield.
   
  And yes, the LT1028CS8 is a single op-amp chip, so you need 2 chips per browndog adapter (one topside, one underside).


----------



## jalyst

Quote: 





germanium said:


> Found a new mod driver that has bit -perfect ASIO capability without the problems with stability of the beta drivers provided by Asus. Similar to what Daniel K did for Creative ths guy has done for Asus. He has come up with drivers that actually work correctly for the Xonar cards. This is a link to the webpage of the guy that made the mod drivers.http://brainbit.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/


 

 Hey nice find!
  So it's like the latest beta dirvers, but without the glitches?


----------



## germanium

Quote: 





jalyst said:


> Hey nice find!
> So it's like the latest beta dirvers, but without the glitches?


 

 Yes, that is correct. I've been trying them out & so far none of the issues the beta drivers had.


----------



## jalyst

Sweet thanks for pointing it out!
  I will install this before starting any mods.
  I'm well overdue for mods, but so many other priorities/projects!


----------



## germanium

Quote: 





jalyst said:


> Sweet thanks for pointing it out!
> I will install this before starting any mods.
> I'm well overdue for mods, but so many other priorities/projects!


 

 You get it installed yet?


----------



## recorder

Quote: 





germanium said:


> Yes, that is correct. I've been trying them out & so far none of the issues the beta drivers had.


 

 Are you using the 1790 or the 1788 UniXonar?
  I installed the 1790 & they seem as stable as the stock version 1788's.
  I'm using ASIO out on my WinXP rig.
  The beta drivers wouldn't work at all when I tried them.


----------



## Steve-o27

That seems odd, I used the 1790 UniXonar drivers with my Xonar ST on 7 x64 and I had stability problems, BSOD in general when quitting 3D applications, now I'm back 1788 UniXonar and it's as stable as a rock. I'm using the low DPC driver version btw.


----------



## germanium

Quote: 





recorder said:


> Are you using the 1790 or the 1788 UniXonar?
> I installed the 1790 & they seem as stable as the stock version 1788's.
> I'm using ASIO out on my WinXP rig.
> The beta drivers wouldn't work at all when I tried them.


 

 I'm using the 1790 ones with no issues here


----------



## Incognito73

Hi there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Just to chip in here ... quickly. I have one observation and one question.
   
  Regarding op-amps, not sure if anyone had a play with  2x OPA627AU (I/V)  + AD8620AR (buffer).  All I can say is that I'm deeply shocked. In a good way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Music so nicely fills the room, somewhat leaves the speakers and just ... oh well ... floats around you in quite calm, smooth manner. So involving sound stage!  No trace of digital nuisance and treble is delicate but not head and shoulders above everything else.  Also,  at relatively low levels music is still quite enjoyable.
   
  So, yeah, I'm extremely pleased with the results. I do have OPA627BP on adapters , but simply put there is not enough space around the I/V sockets. I have to elevate one socket higher, but that leaves more complication and more surface2surface contacts I would like to avoid. Also, I have one pair of AD797BR (on adapters) so may swap AD8620 with them for buffer ... not sure how that will pan out. By the way, testing was done with speakers only. Still have to audition the HD650 (was borrowed to a friend).
   
  Now, question. I have the H6 add-on too, but not using it in surround set-up. Subwoofer is connected for true 2.1 and other ports are used as additional stereo channels. I've configured the default xonar device output in windows sound settigns to 7.1 (and in xonar control panel too) ... but windows is not registering the additional channels when I go to the channels balance (when you open the volume properties in sound settings from windows).  It just shows left + right on the list. I'm using some custom volume control scripts (vbscript API based) ... and they are keeping specific channels at fixed volume while controlling others in parallel/sync. So, not sure if it's driver or hardware issue ... but in any case I would highly appreciate any hint how it's possible to control  the *output volume for each channel from the windows itself.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote: 





germanium said:


> Yes, that is correct. I've been trying them out & so far none of the issues the beta drivers had.


 

 ΑSUS says for the BETAs: "7. Current buffer time is set at 10ms, will be adjustable in later version."
   
  But downloading them today, this adjustment is accesible for any price you like! So no more glitches?
  (Ι set it, through Foobar, to 20ms, from the default 10ms, to see what will happen).
   
  I had only a tiny problem using them as they are. I hope that now they are bit perfect and absolutely perfect!
  (Windows XP with Kernel streaming and Foobar).


----------



## jalyst

Quote: 





germanium said:


> You get it installed yet?


 

 LOL, nope but it's bookmarked & will eventually be used....  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I've got a HTPC/PVR/jack-of-all build I've been working on for about 1yr (weird I know; I'm obsessive/compulsive)
  I'll finally have most of the critical pieces assembled in about 5-days, when that happens, the build begins...


----------



## Incognito73

OK ... managed to grab the exact screen, describing the problem:
   

   

 As you may notice there is a balance just for L/R channels. No trace of additional channels (LB/LR,C,Sub etc) and system (audio device) is configured as 7.1, This is probably Asus driver specific quirk. Can't remember that I had such problem with other audio cards. Anyway, temporary workaround is that I'm keeping the Windows volume at 100% and actual volume for each channel is controlled via  ASIO mixer (probably better option). It would be useful to have balance control from windows mixer though, if needed.
   
  Quote: 





incognito73 said:


> Hi there
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hellenic vanagon

60ms and no glitches at all! (I hope).
   
   
   
   




  
  Quote: 





hellenic vanagon said:


> ΑSUS says for the BETAs: "7. Current buffer time is set at 10ms, will be adjustable in later version."
> 
> But downloading them today, this adjustment is accesible for any price you like! So no more glitches?
> (Ι set it, through Foobar, to 20ms, from the default 10ms, to see what will happen).
> ...


----------



## giedrys

OK this might be confusing question but here it is anyway: what is FlexBass on Xonar control panel? Can this be used as bass management for analog outputs?
  In other words, is there any way to enable bass management  when sending signal to 2.1 system via ST's analog output?


----------



## Incognito73

Well ... it depends.
   
  If you are referring to True 2.1, where you can fine tune both active sub (low pass filter) and main speakers (high pass filter) so that they complement each other nicely,  this is possible only with the H6 expansion card as you would need  the separate sub channel. Other option (no H6 card ) is that you use RCA splitter for existing analog/stereo output and effectively split the signal and feed the speakers/sub separately. By the way some subs allow pass-through, so you feed them with the main stereo signal and from the sub itself you connect the main speakers.
   
  FlexiBass is effectively low/high pass filter (can't remember if there is any gain control).  You can fine tune the crossover point and it will filter out the speakers frequencies. You can achieve the same and most probably even better effect with the help from VST/DS filters (namely for crossover and/or low/high pass filters). That's my case. I'm using the VST host and appropriate filters to fine tune the speakers/sub for true 2.1 effect. Of course,  you would need the H6 expansion card in any case.
   
  Hope this makes sense.


----------



## Danno

Anyone know how this card compares to the Musiland Monitor 02 US? What's better?


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote: 





danno said:


> Anyone know how this card compares to the Musiland Monitor 02 US? What's better?


 

 Musilands jitter 270 ps (about) vs 180 ps (STX's STEREOPHILE'S MEASURMENT) - 31% for ST.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/musiland-monitor-01-usd-24-192-usb-spdif-423960/index37.html
   

   
   
  STTREOPHILE'S MEASURMENT FOR STX, JANUARY 2010. *ST=-31%*
   

   
   
  Some comparable specs: (For Musiland the only available).
   
*MUSILAND 02*

Analogue SNR 113 dB

Analogue Dynamic Range 113 dB

Analogue Distortion 0.005%
   
http://http//gyratech.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13_17_9&products_id=59&zenid=11u2s2v4do9pbhlmca2h9knqu1
   
   
*Αsus ST*

Analogue SNR 124 db 

Analogue Dynamic Range 124 db

Analogue Distortion & N 0.0003% 
   
   
  So we can see that, in terms of measurments at least, ST is much better!


----------



## macrog

I owned both and found it nearly impossible to pick a favorite. With the stock opamps the Musiland is ahead but with the lme49720na's in the ST they are pretty much even to my ear. The ST is clearly better than the STX though (both using same opamps).
   
  I sold my musiland 02us to a friend who really wanted it. I would have chosen to hold onto it and have got rid of the STX in my second computer.
   
  The Musiland is much better value in my opinion and makes an excellent usb/coaxial converter even for high end stereo systems.
   
  Hope this helps.
   
  Macrog


----------



## giedrys

Quote: 





incognito73 said:


> Well ... it depends.
> 
> If you are referring to True 2.1, where you can fine tune both active sub (low pass filter) and main speakers (high pass filter) so that they complement each other nicely,  this is possible only with the H6 expansion card as you would need  the separate sub channel. Other option (no H6 card ) is that you use RCA splitter for existing analog/stereo output and effectively split the signal and feed the speakers/sub separately. By the way some subs allow pass-through, so you feed them with the main stereo signal and from the sub itself you connect the main speakers.
> 
> ...


 
  Thanks,
   
  I does makes sense. I was hoping to get the result without H6 and dedicated sub output. I was comparing ST's bass management capabilities directly  with Denon 3930ci universal player. But I guess that would be too much to ask


----------



## ROBSCIX

You can use a sub with a stereo configuration provided it is the right kind of sub.  You would connect the sub to the card and the speaker to the subwoofer.  The sub takes the full frequency signal and filters out the high freq.s and send them to your satelites.
   
  This is basically the only route you have without the H6 which offers a dedicated Sub channel output.


----------



## Divvy

If I liked the card's bass and mids as they are, but would like a smoother or even rolled off treble, which op-amps do you folks think I should be getting for the HP-out?


----------



## giedrys

Quote: 





robscix said:


> You can use a sub with a stereo configuration provided it is the right kind of sub.  You would connect the sub to the card and the speaker to the subwoofer.  The sub takes the full frequency signal and filters out the high freq.s and send them to your satelites.
> 
> This is basically the only route you have without the H6 which offers a dedicated Sub channel output.


 

      Very interesting idea. I think my ML sub has this feature, I'll try. I mean all I'm trying to do is use my ST's dac to send analog signal to audio receiver but if i use receivers bass management then receiver will have to convert back to digital first and hat is pointless.


----------



## Tommizzy

Any one have any suggestions for op amps for hard hitting bass and strong highs that are around 10 bucks each?


----------



## giedrys

Stock opamps hitting hard enough for now.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But if changing them can make "night and day" difference, I'd like to know.


----------



## genclaymore

For hard hitting bass OPA2111AM comes to my mind,but the KP vers might do it to, they are Dip-8 but the AMs need solding.  Divvy try some OPA2107APs thru they are netual and have a big and wide sound stage to them.Tho I dont know what your headphones are. I did buy my OPA2107AP off ebay dirt cheap from a good seller.


----------



## taiyoyuden

Are there any opamps that are just better than the stocks in every way?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





taiyoyuden said:


> Are there any opamps that are just better than the stocks in every way?


 

 It's a preference thing...some will recommend one and some will recommend others...do some research through this thread or others and you can find some suggestions.


----------



## Tommizzy

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> For hard hitting bass OPA2111AM comes to my mind,but the KP vers might do it to, they are Dip-8 but the AMs need solding.  Divvy try some OPA2107APs thru they are netual and have a big and wide sound stage to them.Tho I dont know what your headphones are. I did buy my OPA2107AP off ebay dirt cheap from a good seller.


 


  I do see those OPA2107APs on ebay for $5.60 and the OPA2111KP for $2.95.  Any preference between the two? Do either require any modification for installation or do they just drop into the opamp location? I'm looking for something that's just going to drop right in. My solder station when kaput a few months ago. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Right now I have the M50s and possibly have k702 within the next week.


----------



## genclaymore

OPA2107APs are Dip-8 and the only hting you need to do is make the pins straight and you need Two when using the headphone out thru the ST.  the OPA2107AP Is what I like for my AKG 702s, the OPA2111AM I didnt. but I liked the OPA2111AM when I had my Ultrasones HFI-780s. The OPA2107APs I got was like 2.50 each. I only used the OPA2111Kps when I had my bravura on its muiti channel op-amp sockets. They sound like the AMs.
   
  Tho I dont have the KPs any more so I didnt try them with my AKGs.


----------



## cicad

Hello, this is my first post on this site 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 I have recently bought an ASUS XONAR ST and I hope next week I will also get the SONY MDR XB500's (I already ordered them). Next year probably I will also get the SENN's HD 598 (if I buy them now my wife will kill me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).
  I just installed the ST drivers and I was terrified when I have heard a lot of pops and clicks and also during playing in the XONAR AUDIO CENTER. After this experience I have read the forums and it seems like this is "normal", I don't think so but anyway...
  After this I have tried to watch a movie but then I have seen the next problem: I have CyberLink PowerDVD 10 installed but I cannot launch the program with the ST. I have to go in device manager to disable the ST and then I can start POWERDVD, but if I enable the ST again the PDVD close without any error message... I have also try PDVD 9 but I have the same problem... I have also tried UNi Xonar 1790 1.11 and UNi Xonar 1788 1.01 but I have the same results.
  Another problem is that after restart (not every single restart, but...) the TV TUNER drivers are uninstalled or something because if I launch the TV application (PVR2) I get an error message "Cannot find any video capture device" and I have to reinstall the drivers and then everything works fine with the TV TUNNER.
  Also another one: when I restart or shut down, my PC dose not actually do this: on the monitor is writing "windows is shutting down...", the monitor shut down but the PC doesn't (all the vents are spinning).
  All this troubles I have since I put this nice sound card into my PC... Can anyone help me with some answers to my problems? I have seen a lot of people are using PDVD with STX/ST why I can't do this (now I'm using TotalMedia Theatre 3)?Next step will be a WINDOWS clean install, but until then maybe one of you have some ideas...
   
  I have:
  OS WINDOWS 7 X64 Ultimate Version 6.1.7600
  MOBO M4A79T DELUXE, last bios
  CPU Phenom II X4 955BE
  KingstonHyperX 4GB DDR3 1800MHz CL9 Dual Channel Kit KHX1800C9D3K2/4G
  HDD WD1001FALS
  PSU Enermax MODU 82+ II 525W
  GPU MSI HD 5770
  TV TUNER LEADTEK WINFAST TV2000XP EXPERT
  Antivirus AVIRA
   
  Sorry for my bad english.


----------



## cicad

OK, I'm back after the new Windows 7 install:
   
  1. pops and clicks are still here at start and shut down of PC and also during options changing in ASUS AUDIO CENTER
  2. the problem with the TV TUNER is still here from time to time, if it comes up I have to make a restart or two and then everything it's ok, without reinstalling the TV TUNER (or I just reinstall the TV TUNER driver...) I think this is from some compatibility issues between the drivers from the 2 products XONAR ST and Leadtek TV2000XP Expert. For XONAR I have installed the last beta driver 7.12.8.17731 and for Leadtek the last one from Leadtek site.
  3. the problem from the shut down or restart (PC does not turning off) is still here and I have it also at start up (the vents are starting but the beep from the MOBO is not coming and the monitor does not power up). This is my biggest problem, because it's happening very offen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I don't know if it's a problem from the MOBO (the PCI slots are not allocated correct, maybe I'm saying something stupid now).
  4. CyberLink PowerDVD 10 is working 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm thinking to change the MOBO or the TV TUNER...


----------



## Weaves

Quote: 





cicad said:


> OK, I'm back after the new Windows 7 install:
> 
> 1. pops and clicks are still here at start and shut down of PC and also during options changing in ASUS AUDIO CENTER
> 2. the problem with the TV TUNER is still here from time to time, if it comes up I have to make a restart or two and then everything it's ok, without reinstalling the TV TUNER (or I just reinstall the TV TUNER driver...) I think this is from some compatibility issues between the drivers from the 2 products XONAR ST and Leadtek TV2000XP Expert. For XONAR I have installed the last beta driver 7.12.8.17731 and for Leadtek the last one from Leadtek site.
> ...


 


  Cicad,
   
  Did you make sure to disable the on-board audio and remove all previous audio drivers before installing the Xonar ST??????


----------



## cicad

yep, I have disable it from BIOS and after the fresh install I didn't installed the drivers for the onboard sound card, so this is not the problem...


----------



## [OverDrive]

http://brainbit.wordpress.com/category/uni-xonar/
   
   
  t installs 1790 for the version of your operating system.
  USA ASIO or Wasapi, as it prefers your ear
    
   

  


cicad said:


> OK, I'm back after the new Windows 7 install:
> 
> 1. pops and clicks are still here at start and shut down of PC and also during options changing in ASUS AUDIO CENTER
> 2. the problem with the TV TUNER is still here from time to time, if it comes up I have to make a restart or two and then everything it's ok, without reinstalling the TV TUNER (or I just reinstall the TV TUNER driver...) I think this is from some compatibility issues between the drivers from the 2 products XONAR ST and Leadtek TV2000XP Expert. For XONAR I have installed the last beta driver 7.12.8.17731 and for Leadtek the last one from Leadtek site.
> ...


----------



## cicad

Hi OverDrive I have also tried that drivers, you cans see that above. The sound card have some mechanic relays (they have informed me about this on the asus forum). When I start up or shut down the PC I have to hear that relay clicking if it does not click at start up the PC is not starting (only the vents does) or the tuner will not work, at shut down or restart no clicks => the PC will not shut down properly... I will listen much more carefully those clicks and I will come back.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Based on what you posted I would think there is some type of conflict with the card and the tuner.  Can you move one or the other to another slot?  This should reset the cards resources and fix the conflict.  -If this is the issue.


----------



## cicad

On my MOBO I have only 2 PCI slots so I can only move one product in the place of the other. Should I switch the tuner and sound card slots? I will try that also. Yesterday everything was ok, I had no problems and I only made Windows update (a lot of updates...) I don't know if this could influence or not my problems... I will do the switch only if I will have the problems again (NEVER TOUCH A RUNNING SYSTEM) and I will come with results... Thanks.


----------



## cicad

I have moved the tuner and the sound card one in the others PCI slot with no results. I have installed an older version of the tuner drivers, same thing...  I'm thinking to sell my LCD and PCI tuner for an LCD with an integrated tuner... or to buy a tv box tuner.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

New, (not beta), drivers!
   
Version 5.12.8.1792
   
http://support.asus.com/download/download.aspx


----------



## giedrys

It only took them 6 months.
   
  And now they offer some new  features like "Halp-Life" and Right Click "Traicon"


----------



## yoyo59

my card always makes poppin noises when starting up and shutting down and also when doing some config in asus centre.. its normal


----------



## germanium

Quote: 





yoyo59 said:


> my card always makes poppin noises when starting up and shutting down and also when doing some config in asus centre.. its normal


 


   download latest driver from asus & that will fix popping


----------



## [OverDrive]

*UNi Xonar 1792 1.25 drivers released.*
   
  - Updated ASIO Bit-perfect from 2.0.0.1 to 2.0.0.2 (_special thanks to *bullseye*_)
-  Fixed C-Media Audio Panel not auto-starting on Windows 7 x86.

   

http://brainbit.wordpress.com/category/uni-xonar/


----------



## yoyo59

is it just me or can i hear a SQ improvement in the new update?


----------



## giedrys

Quote: 





yoyo59 said:


> is it just me or can i hear a SQ improvement in the new update?


 


  It's not just you, it's probably that thing called placebo effect


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





giedrys said:


> It's not just you, it's probably that thing called placebo effect


 

 ..or it's improvments in the drivers.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote: 





robscix said:


> ..or it's improvments in the drivers.


 

 Is this the case?


----------



## yoyo59

can anyone reccommend me op amps? also what they do as in .. some deliver warm some deliver neutral etc etc thanks


----------



## genclaymore

You can try some OPA2107AP there dip-8 dual channel op-amps there like a cheaper ver of the OPA627.


----------



## Kuze

I have an M-Stage connected to Asus ST(2xOPA827, 49710HA's), anything over 50% volume oscillates and gets painfully harsh, what volume % do you guys normally set your Asus ST/X when connected to an external amp?
   
  (HD650 + Silver dragon cable)


----------



## dex85

^i use ASIO, so 100%. i get no oscillation or unpleasant sound. you should change op-amps in I/V, they're probably not stable.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote: 





kuze said:


> I have an M-Stage connected to Asus ST(2xOPA827, 49710HA's), anything over 50% volume oscillates and gets painfully harsh, what volume % do you guys normally set your Asus ST/X when connected to an external amp?
> 
> (HD650 + Silver dragon cable)


 

 With the "beta" or the last drivers, the volume does not work. (Windows XP>ΑSUS>FOOBAR>ASIO).


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


dex85 said:


> ^i use ASIO, so 100%. i get no oscillation or unpleasant sound. you should change op-amps in I/V, they're probably not stable.


 


  Ok thanks, I'm going to revert to the originals until i get some 49720HA for I/V.


  Quote: 





hellenic vanagon said:


> With the "beta" or the last drivers, the volume does not work. (Windows XP>ΑSUS>FOOBAR>ASIO).


 
   
  I had the latest Asus driver installed "1792", will use UNi Xonar latest 1792 instead, will see if it makes a difference, thanks.
   
  Edit: everything works ok on UNi drivers, also using ASIO in foobar.


----------



## thomaz

Hey
  Linux alsamixer have two options Dac Filter(Slow Roll-off or Sharp Roll-off) and Dac Oversampling(64x or 128x).What are the best settings?


----------



## cladisch

For the roll-off behaviour, see the section "TYPICAL PERFORMANCE CURVES" in the PCM1792A datasheet.
  For oversampling, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-sigma_modulation#Oversampling.
   
  If you don't understand any of this, try sharp and 128x.
  If you don't hear a difference, all settings are best.


----------



## thomaz

Sennheiser 595 or new Sennheiser 598?Which is better with xonar st?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





kuze said:


> I have an M-Stage connected to Asus ST(2xOPA827, 49710HA's), anything over 50% volume oscillates and gets painfully harsh, what volume % do you guys normally set your Asus ST/X when connected to an external amp?
> 
> (HD650 + Silver dragon cable)


 

 You are using the line outs on the card right? -I have to ask.


----------



## Kuze

Yes, everything seems fine now using Uni Xonar drivers, [size=10pt]Vanagon[/size] did mention Asus new drivers aren't working properly which seems to be the case.


----------



## hellenic vanagon

Quote: 





kuze said:


> Yes, everything seems fine now using Uni Xonar drivers, [size=10pt]Vanagon[/size] did mention Asus new drivers aren't working properly which seems to be the case.


 

 No sir, I never said so!
  As for the volume, the not working declares the "bit perfect" condition.


----------



## Kuze

Quote:


			
				hellenic vanagon said:
			
		

> No sir, I never said so!
> As for the volume, the not working declares the "bit perfect" condition.


 
   
  Misinterpreted, sorry, thought you meant drivers are broken also. On Asus forum and Uni Xonar blog few members said the latest drivers were broken... well at least isn't working properly.


----------



## pompon

Any difference betweet STX and ST if I am using ONLY coax spdif out. I WILL NOT using headphone on it, or play games or using analog out ... ONLY digital out.
   
  It's for my music server ...


----------



## Sauntache (Jul 20, 2018)

.


----------



## macrog

Yes the ST is significantly better than the STX even just for coaxial digital output and yes I have compared to the d2 and d2x. The ST is the best internal PC soundcard I hard heard and the best internal digital transport.
   
  The STX sounds way worse than the STX. The ST does have a reclocker on the board. I wonder if thats the reason.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog
  
  Quote: 





pompon said:


> Any difference betweet STX and ST if I am using ONLY coax spdif out. I WILL NOT using headphone on it, or play games or using analog out ... ONLY digital out.
> 
> It's for my music server ...


----------



## cladisch

macrog said:
			
		

> Yes the ST is significantly better than the STX even just for coaxial digital output and yes I have compared to the d2 and d2x.
> 
> The STX sounds way worse than the STX. The ST does have a reclocker on the board. I wonder if thats the reason.


 
   
  The ST's reclocker affects only the DAC's master clock; the S/PDIF outputs are constructed identically on all Xonar cards.
   
  What difference did you detect, and how did you measure it?


----------



## macrog

Difference purely noticed from listening.  The stereo imaging on the ST is much better than the STX even through the digital output.
   
  The Musiland Monitor 02us soundly beat the STX (for imaging and detail) in my opinion but the ST was at least as good as the 02us.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog
   
  P.S. I do not resell Asus or Musiland gear.


----------



## pompon

Excellent ... I compared MANY CD transport and other computer audio transport (usb, soundcard) and hand down ... the STX beat them all easily. You concince me to buy the ST. Thx for your advice!
  Quote:


macrog said:


> . The ST is the best internal PC soundcard I hard heard and the best internal digital transport.
> 
> The STX sounds way worse than the STX. The ST does have a reclocker on the board. I wonder if thats the reason.
> 
> ...


----------



## AhhHoNG

Quote: 





cladisch said:


> macrog said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  sounds like he is a victim of placebo for the digital output.


----------



## ancientz

Hello to all Hi-Fi addicts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  alas I ain't one lol. I bought this card based on stuff I've read here whilst lurking though. So I do have a few questions - hope I ain't a big hassle to you...
   
  What do you think would be the ideal placement to avoid any EMI from the adjacent card - that would be a Trio TV card (sat included that is).
   
  Here's my board
   

  In other words - is EMI a problem affecting the front or the rear of the Essence? Please disregard if my question is too stupid? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Also, thinking to get the H6 expansion board - though I ain't certain it would fit in position pci-e number 1 there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   

   
  2nd question and although it's probably asked a zillion times already - what would you suggest as far as headphones? Money is not the problem - but I would not like to spend a fortune in order to get the HD 800 when the gain compared to other Sennheisers at half the price say, would be negligible. Right?
   

   
  http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/private_headphones_audiophile-headphones_500319
   
  Also thinking to get these 2.1 babies - but not certain how to use both at the same time? Any clues? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   

   
  http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/speakers-audio/home-pc-speakers/devices/5861
   
  Thanks for listening? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Oh yeah - Happy New Year to all.


----------



## Divvy

Quote: 





ancientz said:


> I would not like to spend a fortune in order to get the HD 800 when the gain compared to other Sennheisers at half the price say, would be negligible. Right?


 
   
  I wouldn't call it anywhere near negligible. In fact, I would call it the largest leap in the Sennheiser family of phones, disregarding the <150$ ones. It truly is a whole different animal.


----------



## Centinel

Hello from a former lurker! After spending several days pouring through these forums and reading everything imaginable, I've decided to get the Essence ST for my system since it seems to be a good value and has a company I'm familiar with standing behind it. As a bonus, I cashed in my spare change bag at a Coinstar machine for an Amazon gift card to the tune of $125, so I ended up only paying $85 shipped 
   
  Does anyone have suggestions for which OPAMPs might work well with a pair of DT880/250? After looking over this thread, the STX sneak peek thread, and the STX tweaking thread, I didn't see many specific comments about the 250 model. One user suggested that the stock JRC2114D _might_ work well with the DT880s. Someone else posted a configuration he/she thought was "ideal" for the DT880, but I forgot to bookmark it and can't seem to find it now.
   
  From looking at general comments about the OPAMPs, the OPA2107AP sounds interesting. The only one I'm apprehensive about is the 49720NA, which I used with my previous source. I felt it made the treble too harsh.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Also thinking to get these 2.1 babies - but not certain how to use both at the same time? Any clues?


 
   
   
  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong since I don't have the card yet, but I believe the ST can output to _only_ the headphones or line-out at once.


----------



## macrog

I use 3 lme49720na's in both my ST and STX and harsh treble is not a problem. They totally transformed the standard sound. My stereo is reasonably high end and the ST sounds impressive as a source. I have never run anything other than IEMs out of it headphone wise.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog


----------



## taiyoyuden

Quote: 





centinel said:


> Hello from a former lurker! After spending several days pouring through these forums and reading everything imaginable, I've decided to get the Essence ST for my As a bonus, I cashed in my spare change bag at a Coinstar machine for an Amazon gift card to the tune of $125, so I ended up only paying $85 shipped


 

   
  Mmm, no you paid $210 shipped.


----------



## Centinel

Quote: 





taiyoyuden said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Oh, come on, you're no fun...the change doesn't _count_


----------



## ShooTa

Quote: 





thomaz said:


> Sennheiser 595 or new Sennheiser 598?Which is better with xonar st?


 


  thomaz - i use the sennheiser 558s with the foam mod - so akin to the 598
  and im staggered by both the card and the cans - now im not a huge audiophile yet - i do know what i like and in terms of sound quality
  in rock the sound good and clean - bass is there but not too oppressively heavy
  in heavy metal - its again clean and im hearing more inidvidual instruments and the words are more audible.
  in jazz - well    swoon...
  in classical - its just a pleasure to listen too
  and lastly for a bit of dubstep and gaming - theyre mellow but destinctive and again just like chocolate melting.
   
  i hope that helps somewhat - although i sadly only have other gaming brand headphones(5hv2s and siberias) and lowscale IEMs to compare with.


----------



## giedrys

Quote: 





macrog said:


> I use 3 lme49720na's in both my ST and STX and harsh treble is not a problem. They totally transformed the standard sound. My stereo is reasonably high end and the ST sounds impressive as a source. I have never run anything other than IEMs out of it headphone wise.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Macrog


 

 Well, since you think they make that much difference and cost is something like $7, I might as well try it. So you need 3 in total for ST. How easy is to swap them? I assume no soldering is involved?


----------



## macrog

No solder required just a good set of screwdrivers. I have zero regrets re the opamps. With the opamp upgrade the ST compared pretty well to the Dacmagic I had at the time. My stereo gear has moved along way but my ST remains in my computer.
   
  The ST is much better than the STX by the way. each both with the same opamps.
   
  Regards
   
  Macrog


----------



## ancientz

Following up my post here
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/414322/xonar-essence-st-sneak-peek/1725#post_7161925
   
  would like to add that I've placed the ST at the last PCI slot so hopefully EMI will not be that terrible - fingers crossed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Also decided not to buy the Logitech speakers cause from what I gather reading here - they're far from quality speakers anyway.
   
  So, I'd love to get quality headphones for my Essence ST; good thing I've registered here otherwise I would have bought expensive Sennheisers without knowing that they actually need decent amplification as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  It all gets down to this - what would you recommend as far as headphones without amps/dac etc? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Cheers


----------



## Piospi

ST / STX. Which to choose? I have ST. Apparently the ST has a better sound than STX - I can see it at Sennheiser HD555? ST has a PCI, which has already died (Intel P67, EVGA Classified and Asus Maximus Extreme).
   
   
  I'm not an audiophile, play games and listen to music. Do you as a normal user I can see the difference? 
   
   
  Excuse me, but I do not know much about audio.


----------



## pompon

What driver use for winxp finally ?
   
  I tried ASIO and sound is worse than kernel steaming.
   
  I try the beta
  c:\Nouveau dossier\PCI-ST-100423-5.12.8.17731(XP-ER-03)_ForASIO2.2\PCI_ST_100423_5_12_8_17731_XPForASIO2_2.rar
   
  and the latest
   
  PCI_ST_5_12_8_1792_XP.zip
   
  The beta said 88.1 and 176 was supported but I only see 44.1, 48, 96 and 192 in Audio Center.
   
  Any of these driver is bitperfect ?
   
  TY!


----------



## subtle

Quote:


macrog said:


> No solder required just a good set of screwdrivers. I have zero regrets re the opamps. With the opamp upgrade the ST compared pretty well to the Dacmagic I had at the time. My stereo gear has moved along way but my ST remains in my computer.
> 
> The ST is much better than the STX by the way. each both with the same opamps.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hi Macrog.  When you say the ST is much better than the STX would you please describe in what way?  Assuming they are stock vs stock.
   
  I have the STX and I'm tempted to get the ST but have not heard it yet.


----------



## ancientz

Not certain if ST is better than STX just... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - however it's sure as hell miles away from the Creative X-Fi / Logitech speakers system I had.
   
  My buys which I recommend to anyone (I ain't Hi-Fi mind you - average computer user here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
*- Asus Xonar Essense ST*
*- Edifier S530*
*- Audio Technica ATH-M50*
   
  Far as my headphones the bass is a bit gloomy at the moment - maybe need to give them a few hours, eh? That said, they're like Barcelona compared to the crappy headset I had like for ever. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  All props to Head-Fi.org 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for clueing me in.
   
  Cheers


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





pompon said:


> What driver use for winxp finally ?
> 
> I tried ASIO and sound is worse than kernel steaming.
> 
> ...


 

 The stock drivers are bit perfect...however they will not adjust the sampling rate.  The drivers you listed will adjust the sampling rate automatically for ASIO.  The sampling rate would still adjust automatically when using ASIO to 88.1 or 176..just they aren't listed in the manual sample rate selection.


----------



## LukaLux4

I have a question for you...
   
  I've decided to invest in some audio equipment... I mainly listen to music on my PC... I've just ordered Ath-M50s, which will probably not sound as good on my PC's integrated sound card as It should...
  So I'm planning to buy Xonar Essence sound card, mainly because the review on your site is very good and it fits my budget limit...
   
  But now I'm confused, cuz there is a lot of different Xonar Essence sound cards on the web... How do I know which one to buy, which one is most appropriate for my use, for my headphones...
   
  For example, if I will buy from German Amazon stre, since I'm from Europe, what is the difference between these cards? Which one should I get? http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_7_22?__mk_de_DE=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=asus+xonar+essence+stx&x=0&y=0&sprefix=asus+xonar+essence+stx


----------



## pompon

A couple of days ago I notice INFERIOR sound in my system.
   
  I am using an old computer with Essence ST using coax digital to my dac. When I got my ST, I was using my big computer.
  I am running WinXP and using the unified driver with asio,.
   
  Tonight I took my big computer and bring back in my stereo system and put the ST inside. I am running Win7
   
  Surprise ... my soundquality is back ... MUCH BETTER !
   
  Now I am to figure if XP + driver is responsable to this inferior sound or if it's the power supply inside my computer.
   
  For sure, when I put a "better" powercord, I notice improvement even if I am using digital coax to my dac.
   
  With Win7 with latest official driver, Kernel Streaming offer MUCH better SQ than Asio. I not tried on that computer the unified driver yet ...
  I am using KS: Asus Xonar Essence ST Digital (I don't have this option on XP).


----------



## ancientz

The ST is the newer of the batch with STX being the older PCI Express version. I got the ST cause basically I wanted to avoid the EMI from the adjacent GTX 460 card.
   
  Far as which version, it really depends on your needs. If you have a 7.1 setup, then in order for it to work with the ST you have to buy the H6 expansion board as well. Therefore, you need a spare PCIe at hand also.
   
  The ST/STX do share the best specs (124db etc) - however if surround sound is essential, you may be better off getting the DX/D1/D2 instead.
   
  Quote:


lukalux4 said:


> But now I'm confused, cuz there is a lot of different Xonar Essence sound cards on the web... How do I know which one to buy, which one is most appropriate for my use, for my headphones...
> For example, if I will buy from German Amazon stre, since I'm from Europe, what is the difference between these cards? Which one should I get? http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_7_22?__mk_de_DE=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=asus+xonar+essence+stx&x=0&y=0&sprefix=asus+xonar+essence+stx


----------



## LukaLux4

Ok... Thank you Ancientz for your answer... I think I'm going to buy ST version too, becaus the price is the same, and I'm reading on the forum that it is slightly better...
   
  I have a 2.1 setup for now, maybe will go to 7.1 sometimes, but not any time soon... I'm getting a sound card, that would be as good and effective as possible for my headphones (Ath-M50), and also a card, that is good enough to run a good 5.1, 7.1 setup in the future ... Which one do you think I should buy for my needs?
   
  And also I don't quite understand something, is a sound card also a good amp, or it is only a beter source?

  
  Quote: 





ancientz said:


> The ST is the newer of the batch with STX being the older PCI Express version. I got the ST cause basically I wanted to avoid the EMI from the adjacent GTX 460 card.
> 
> Far as which version, it really depends on your needs. If you have a 7.1 setup, then in order for it to work with the ST you have to buy the H6 expansion board as well. Therefore, you need a spare PCIe at hand also.
> 
> The ST/STX do share the best specs (124db etc) - however if surround sound is essential, you may be better off getting the DX/D1/D2 instead.


----------



## ancientz

Well, if you get the ST - why don't you also get the expansion board for it then? Besides, it's not good having 2 different audio cards in your system anyway.
   
  Far as the 2nd question - an amp is not crucial for the ATH-M50 and quite frankly it's one of the reasons I've decided to buy them. Other than the very good reviews that is.
   
  Having said that, for all Hi-Fi expensive headphones an amp seems to be a necessity from what I gather so far. Especially the high impedance ones if I am not mistaken.
   
  Hope that helps.


----------



## sagatman

Quote: 





pompon said:


> ...
> Tonight I took my big computer and bring back in my stereo system and put the ST inside. I am running Win7
> Surprise ... my soundquality is back ... MUCH BETTER !
> ...


 
   I found computer power has great influence on sound. When I upgraded the power supply from Enhance 400W to 500W, my ST sound became more dynamic, forward and aggressive.
  I guess that is because the new power supply provides faster transient response. It is not a disturbing problem because I can use  clamp filter to shape the aggressive sound.


----------



## auger66

[size=small][size=small]I’ve gotten some great information on this forum, like my Essence ST, that I love. But I have some headphones on the way, and that has me caused to look at the settings again. I found several references in the threads, but not anything that I could take to put it all together so I’m asking for suggestions for my newby-self.[/size][/size]
   
  [size=small][size=small]Windows 7 64-bit, Xonar Essence ST (latest driver), I use Windows Media Center for everything, My Movies 3 and Total Media Theatre 5 for blu-ray playback from within WMC. The ST is connected straight to a stereo amp with RCA analog interconnects. Everything works great together. Mostly I listen to 44.1 music and recorded TV, but watch blu-rays occasionally. The headphones will be plugged directly into the HP jack on the ST.[/size][/size]
   
  [size=small][size=small]What should I set in Windows Conrol Panel? It is set to 2 channel, 24/44.1 now. Should I set it to 6 channels and 24/192 to watch movies? Or 6 ch, 24/192 all the time? There is an option checked to "allow applications to take exclusive control of this device." Does that mean it really doesn’t matter what I do here because the ASUS control panel will override it? My preference would be to set it once for the BEST setting for all; but if the ASUS panel doesn’t override the Windows panel, I’m guessing it would be a compromise. [/size][/size]
   
  [size=small][size=small]The ASUS panel is set to hi-fi, 2 channels, 44.1, and the mixer is at 76. Windows controls the system volume. I was planning to use the new headphones for late night movie watching. Other than "headphone" and "Dolby headphone," should I change the number of audio channels to 6? Or change it to 6 in Windows and 2 in ASUS? Bit/sample rate in Windows and/or ASUS? [/size][/size]
   
  [size=small][size=small]On top of all that, Windows Media Center and TMT5 have their own channels settings.  [/size][/size]
  [size=small][size=small]Is there an easier way?[/size][/size]
   
  [size=small][size=small]I realize there are a lot of questions here, but they are all related to each other. Thanks for any insights. [/size][/size]


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## jalyst

Can anyone who owns the Xonar H6 please advise…
 Does it also do 7.1 analog input?

 I've scoured the net and there's no chatter of that ability.
 I've not been able to find a datasheet to be 100% certain though.

 Judging by it's product page i don't think so
 http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_H6/

 If it has analogue capture roughly equivalent to this:
 http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html
 Then considering it also does excellent output, it'd be a truly awesome buy.

 I know the Essence ST does 2ch analogue capture.


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## jonmac

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *ancientz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The ST is the newer of the batch with STX being the older PCI Express version. I got the ST cause basically I wanted to avoid the EMI from the adjacent GTX 460 card.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Now why would ancientz recommend the dx/d1/d2 for 7.1 output when the ST+H6 have much better output. Please explain further....i could be wrong.


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## jonmac

Quote: 





macrog said:


> No solder required just a good set of screwdrivers. I have zero regrets re the opamps. With the opamp upgrade the ST compared pretty well to the Dacmagic I had at the time. My stereo gear has moved along way but my ST remains in my computer.
> 
> The ST is much better than the STX by the way. each both with the same opamps.
> 
> ...


 


  By the way i'm tryna get some op-amps to see the difference they make compared to the stock op-amps....macrog or robscix please your input would be very essential.


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## dizolit

I've scoured the internet for the H6 and it is nowhere to be found.  On top of that, I've read that it has been discontinued.  Is there a hidden stash of them somewhere on the internet where I may purchase one?


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## jalyst

still seems pretty available in oz (australia). decent engine staticice.com.au ^


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## jalyst

jalyst said:


> Can anyone who owns the Xonar H6 please advise…
> Does it also do 7.1 analog input?
> 
> I've scoured the net and there's no chatter of that ability.
> ...


 
  anyone? thank-you.


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## germanium

Quote: 





jalyst said:


> anyone? thank-you.


 


 You can only do 2 channels at a time input the use mixing software to combine them into one multichannel file. You would actually not be mixing them as that would defeat your purpose of outputing 8 channel audio. The H6 card only does 6 of the channels output, no input. you would need a mixer capable of 8 channel output.


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## jalyst

As I suspected, ST = 2ch analog input, H6 = 0 analog input, thanks for confirming.


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## DSK123

Was wondering if someone could help me here. I just bought a mic to use through the line-in for Ventrilo. After a few minutes of use I got a loud high frequency beep through my headphones, luckily nothing was damaged. I experienced the same thing a few minutes later. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there a fix? Thank you


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## sagatman

The situation may result from an amplifying loop between your speaker/headphone and mic.  Try to lower the mic level or keep the mic away from speaker/headphone.


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## fufula

I don't think that's what he's talking about. It happened to me once when using Ventrilo and it actually sounded like a beep, not an amp loop. It was so loud it made me jump in my chair, thankfully didn't damage my headphones. Vent wasn't being used at the time by anybody (nobody was speaking,) others in Vent heard it as well, it lasted 3-4 seconds. I know it wasn't my mic picking up the sound coming from my headphones (closed set,) it never does that, and the sensitivity is set just right so it doesn't activate by itself...
   
  DSK123, what driver version are you using?


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## DSK123

Quote: 





fufula said:


> I don't think that's what he's talking about. It happened to me once when using Ventrilo and it actually sounded like a beep, not an amp loop. It was so loud it made me jump in my chair, thankfully didn't damage my headphones. Vent wasn't being used at the time by anybody (nobody was speaking,) others in Vent heard it as well, it lasted 3-4 seconds. I know it wasn't my mic picking up the sound coming from my headphones (closed set,) it never does that, and the sensitivity is set just right so it doesn't activate by itself...
> 
> DSK123, what driver version are you using?


 

 7.12.8.1792
   
  I don't think it's an amplifying loop. There is no way the mic is picking up any sound from my headphones. When I got the beep, I closed all programs and even muted the system. The beep continued for about 5 minutes before it went away, even while muted.


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## fufula

I'm using the unofficial UNi Xonar v1.31 driver (low-DPC latency mode,) which is based on 7.12.8.1793s. What else were you running in the background (or foreground)? Maybe it's some application conflicting with Ventrilo.
   
  I had some other issues with Ventrilo before. For example, with some older driver sets, opening the Ventrilo setup would result in the card switching outputs (from RCA back to headphone) or the recording input settings in Windows... It's also possible that Ventrilo itself is the problem and you might want to consider switching to a different VoIP app (things like these never happened in TS2, TS3, Mumble.) Some people with on-board sound cards will randomly transmit really loud static over their mics, and just like in my case, it seems like it occurs at random and is really rare, so finding the root of the problem may be tough.
   
  I guess you could try posting in the official forums if you haven't already, but I doubt you're going to find a solution to the problem there either.


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## DSK123

Started using Mumble, and I haven't experience the beep. Thanks for the tip fufula!
  Quote: 





fufula said:


> I'm using the unofficial UNi Xonar v1.31 driver (low-DPC latency mode,) which is based on 7.12.8.1793s. What else were you running in the background (or foreground)? Maybe it's some application conflicting with Ventrilo.
> 
> I had some other issues with Ventrilo before. For example, with some older driver sets, opening the Ventrilo setup would result in the card switching outputs (from RCA back to headphone) or the recording input settings in Windows... It's also possible that Ventrilo itself is the problem and you might want to consider switching to a different VoIP app (things like these never happened in TS2, TS3, Mumble.) Some people with on-board sound cards will randomly transmit really loud static over their mics, and just like in my case, it seems like it occurs at random and is really rare, so finding the root of the problem may be tough.
> 
> I guess you could try posting in the official forums if you haven't already, but I doubt you're going to find a solution to the problem there either.


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## Knightingale

I've been wanting to get the Essence STX for sometime but then i see there's a newer Essence ST now.
  was wondering how does the sound quality compare to other external amps?
  i've been using an AMB mini^3 for some a few years. Is Essence ST an upgrade from it?
  and anyone have tested the Essence ST with Etymotic ER4-S / Grado SR-60?


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## jalyst

@knightingale
   
  Read as many pages as you can from about here...
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/414322/xonar-essence-st-sneak-peek/945
   
  In short... ST is slightly better than the STX.
  But whether the diff. is worth it, depends on your usage scenario.
  i.e. Is PCI acceptable for you build etc.
   
  Re amps, not sure how it compares to other top-notch external amps.
  I believe it's "okay", but as always, you'll prolly have better discrete ones.
   
  IIRC there's some discussion about that in here too.
  Otherwise just start a dedicated thread, someone will know.


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## Knightingale

thanks for the information jalyst! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  i've owned a Grado SR60 for 3 years and Ety ER4-S for 2 years.
  i got the mini^3 amp for portability sake. and that was when it hit me hard....i never listen to music(on headphones) other than when i'm sitting in my room in front of my computer.
  i'm changing a new computer rig so was considering getting the Essence ST.


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## jalyst

no worries, happy reading!


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## Blackbird_CaD_

When it's set to 'Normal gain', does it amplify at all?
  And if i set it to 'High gain' with my MDR-XB700 which has a impedence of 24 ohm, would my XB700 burn up?


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## OpTicaL

Quote: 





blackbird_cad_ said:


> When it's set to 'Normal gain', does it amplify at all?
> And if i set it to 'High gain' with my MDR-XB700 which has a impedence of 24 ohm, would my XB700 burn up?


 


  I'm curious of this as well.
   
  Using HD595. I noticed on any gain setting I have to tweak the equalizer to get bass response but when I'm on 2 speaker mode every sounds fine, is it because powered speakers route bass automatically?


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## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





optical said:


> I'm curious of this as well.
> 
> Using HD595. I noticed on any gain setting I have to tweak the equalizer to get bass response but when I'm on 2 speaker mode every sounds fine, is it because powered speakers route bass automatically?


 

 No, I would think it is because there are different components used when running the head amp or running the line outputs which give different sonic characteristics.  Make sure you are not over driving the headphones with too much gain also as that can decrease the perceived bass making the high end more prominent.


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## germanium

Quote: 





knightingale said:


> I've been wanting to get the Essence STX for sometime but then i see there's a newer Essence ST now.
> was wondering how does the sound quality compare to other external amps?
> i've been using an AMB mini^3 for some a few years. Is Essence ST an upgrade from it?
> and anyone have tested the Essence ST with Etymotic ER4-S / Grado SR-60?


 


 I have the Etymotic ER4P with P to S converter cable & yest it works great with the STX which uses the same headamp as the ST. I don't have the Mini-3 to compare it with but the ST is likely an improvement as the headamp is fully direct coupled & hense does not suffer any bass loss at any phone impedance. The Mini 3 is capacitor coupled & would suffer bass loss with low impedance phones (not a problem though with the ER4S though might be with ER4P). I usually find direct coupled amps more clear sounding than capacitor coupled amps unless some sort of film cap is used for coupling which is expensive & very large hense not practical for portable usage which the Mini 3 is intended for. I haven't had Grado phones in years as i found them too unreliable for me & the cheaper ones below about the SR225 now have perferated plastic backs which causes them to sound way inferior to the wire back models (more conjested).
   
  You will need to use medium gain setting on the ER4S phones & normal gain on the Grado phones
   
  The ER4p & ER4s both sound excellent on the STX that I have with none of the harshness at the very top that I have with the Denon AH-D1001. Truely balanced sound from the ER4's either way.


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## germanium

Quote: 





blackbird_cad_ said:


> When it's set to 'Normal gain', does it amplify at all?
> And if i set it to 'High gain' with my MDR-XB700 which has a impedence of 24 ohm, would my XB700 burn up?


 


 24 ohms while not being optimal impedance for the ST or STX will not hurt the soundcard. However setting the gain to above normal gain with higher than normal listening volumes can damage your hearing as well as damage your phones ( not burn them up but will break the fine wire that goes to the voice coil due to excessive excursion of the driver)


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## hellenic vanagon

*ST JITTER! (24 192,  ANALOGUE OUTPUT)*
   

  [size=12pt]http://www.soundtrackforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=325[/size]
   
*10-20 ps!*
   
*STX JITTER for comparison:*
   

   
*170-180 ps.*
   
   
   
*ASUS ST: BEST INNER CARD DAC EVER?*


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## ben_r_

Might be a dead thread, but I just got me Xonar H6 card and hooked it up for a little analog 5.1 to my Logitech Z-5500's


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## deanorthk

Don't know if it's dead, but I'm building a HTPC, and will get my hand on an ST card, going to read the whole STX nd ST pages for op amp recommandation, since it'll be for my hifi system (rotel RB1080, Waterfall victoria EVO). I'm looking for something not harsh sounding, quite neutral but alive


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