# New denafrips DDC (Iris and Gaia)



## smodtactical (May 7, 2020)

Iris: https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-iris

Gaia: https://www.vinshineaudio.com/product-page/denafrips-gaia

This is certainly interesting. Look forward to reviews of both units.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Definitely pricey.


----------



## BlakeT (May 10, 2020)

I just ordered the Denafrips Gaia. 

A couple of months ago, I was just about to order the Audio-GD DI-20HE, so I could use the i2S input on my Denafrips Terminator (I'm using the usb input now, with the unbelievably good Sablon Audio Panatela Reserva usb cable- the new 2020 version).

On the day I was about to click the "order" button on the DI-20HE, I came across some online discussion about Denafrips developing a line of D/D converters, so I decided to wait.  I know people are really liking the DI-20 line and this will be a "flyer" for me since there are really no reports yet, but I trust in Denafrips to get it right.

In emails with Alvin Chee of Vinshine Audio (worldwide distributor for Denafrips), he reports the Gaia makes a huge difference connected to his Terminator.  Hopefully my Gaia won't take too long to build and ship.


----------



## thisisvv

subscribed as future terminator customer


----------



## smodtactical

BlakeT said:


> I just ordered the Denafrips Gaia.
> 
> A couple of months ago, I was just about to order the Audio-GD DI-20HE, so I could use the i2S input on my Denafrips Terminator (I'm using the usb input now, with the unbelievably good Sablon Audio Panatela Reserva usb cable- the new 2020 version).
> 
> ...



Look forward to your impressions. Would have been awesome if you got both and did a shootout but of course this would be expensive. Congrats on the purchase.


----------



## Sage Encore

Hi Guys,
My DDC path has been, SU1> Gustard U16. After I upgarded my DSP card to V2 from Denafrips, I liked the sound so much I sold my Gustard U16, any way, it was a bit of a hit and miss with that product. I was glad the new board from Denafrips was perfect for me. Now, this Gaia is being released and am very interested to know how much of a difference it would make. Exciting times ahead indeed.


----------



## BlakeT

smodtactical said:


> Look forward to your impressions. Would have been awesome if you got both and did a shootout but of course this would be expensive. Congrats on the purchase.



I wish I had an Audio-gd DI-20HE to compare to Gaia, but no such luck.... unless a DI-20HE owner wants to ship a unit to me for comparisons.   

I've had quite a few D/D converters (Berkeley, Bel Canto RefLink and uLink, AR-T Legato, etc.) but the only one I have left here to use for direct comparison is a Breeze DU U8 which does have i2s and AES/EBU output- I am guessing the Gaia beats it.  My Gaia should be shipping in the next 7-10 days.


----------



## smodtactical

BlakeT said:


> I wish I had an Audio-gd DI-20HE to compare to Gaia, but no such luck.... unless a DI-20HE owner wants to ship a unit to me for comparisons.
> 
> I've had quite a few D/D converters (Berkeley, Bel Canto RefLink and uLink, AR-T Legato, etc.) but the only one I have left here to use for direct comparison is a Breeze DU U8 which does have i2s and AES/EBU output- I am guessing the Gaia beats it.  My Gaia should be shipping in the next 7-10 days.



Did you pick the Gaia over the DI20HE because you already have a terminator?


----------



## BlakeT (May 26, 2020)

smodtactical said:


> Did you pick the Gaia over the DI20HE because you already have a terminator?



I picked Gaia because: (1) I have had great experience with my Terminator and Vinshine Audio, (2) Denafrips is getting almost universal praise across their entire range of products and Denafrips put almost 3 years of research and design into this new line of D/D converters, so odds are that these new D/D converters will be good performers, and (3) I have no personal experience with Audio-gd.


----------



## smodtactical

BlakeT said:


> I picked Gaia because: (1) I have had great experience with my Terminator and Vinshine Audio, (2) Denafrips is getting almost universal praise across their entire range of products and Denafrips put almost 3 years of research and design into this new line of D/D converters, so odds are that these new D/D converters will be good performers, and (3) I have no personal experience with Audio-gd.



I think it will be a great unit for sure. I just ordered DI20HE based on all the hype. Hopefully it works out. 

I am still thinking of the soundaware 280, 300 or 300ref.


----------



## BlakeT

From all I have read, the DI20 HE is going to serve you very well.  Like I said, but for the Gaia, I would almost certainly have bought the DI20 HE.

Side note- How do you like your Yamaha NS5000's?


----------



## Thenewguy007

Any ETA when they will be shipping them out?


----------



## BlakeT

I ordered my Gaia on May 10th.  When I ordered Alvin said there was a chance my unit would ship within 3 weeks (i.e. faster than the normal period).  However, Alvin told me on Tuesday there has been just a bit of a delay caused by the chassis supplier.  He now thinks my unit will ship in about 10 days.


----------



## smodtactical

BlakeT said:


> From all I have read, the DI20 HE is going to serve you very well.  Like I said, but for the Gaia, I would almost certainly have bought the DI20 HE.
> 
> Side note- How do you like your Yamaha NS5000's?



They are amazing! Don't want to get off topic. Feel free to come to our discord in my signature or PM me.


----------



## Sage Encore

I wanted to wait since I just got it, but I cannot stay away from giving my initial impressions. Mind you the ocxo is still not stable I think, but it sounds really really good. The thing that truly stands out is the 3D of the presentation. The detail retrieval, the stereo imaging, staging is addictive. It’s so musical as well with a very Low noise floor if any at all. I definitely cannot hear any harshness and background is very quiet.

The ocxo once settled should bring the Termy to a very level to DACs costing much much more I feel. Words are not enough, u have to hear it in action. Oh God what have I got myself into now. Alvin you are the kind my mum advised to keep away from. Lol. This is a fantastic piece of gear and once you hear it, there’s no turning back I’m afraid. Photos to follow tomorrow guys, it’s going to be a late night for me I guess.

Whoever has ordered it, be prepared for some very late nights and early mornings.


----------



## BlakeT

Sage Encore said:


> I wanted to wait since I just got it, but I cannot stay away from giving my initial impressions. Mind you the ocxo is still not stable I think, but it sounds really really good. The thing that truly stands out is the 3D of the presentation. The detail retrieval, the stereo imaging, staging is addictive. It’s so musical as well with a very Low noise floor if any at all. I definitely cannot hear any harshness and background is very quiet.
> 
> The ocxo once settled should bring the Termy to a very level to DACs costing much much more I feel. Words are not enough, u have to hear it in action. Oh God what have I got myself into now. Alvin you are the kind my mum advised to keep away from. Lol. This is a fantastic piece of gear and once you hear it, there’s no turning back I’m afraid. Photos to follow tomorrow guys, it’s going to be a late night for me I guess.
> 
> Whoever has ordered it, be prepared for some very late nights and early mornings.



Thanks so much for the early report!  The crazy part is, your Gaia is not even burned in yet.  Great descriptions of the sonic improvements.  I can't wait to receive mine.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Sage Encore said:


> I wanted to wait since I just got it, but I cannot stay away from giving my initial impressions.



Did you have any other DDC to compare to?


----------



## ScornDefeat

What exactly is the point of these? The Denafrips page gives no information on what they do other than that they're DDCs. 

Is it an Upscaler (like the Chord M-Scaler?), or an external clock (like the Teac Master Clock?)


----------



## smodtactical

ScornDefeat said:


> What exactly is the point of these? The Denafrips page gives no information on what they do other than that they're DDCs.
> 
> Is it an Upscaler (like the Chord M-Scaler?), or an external clock (like the Teac Master Clock?)



Its a digital to digital converter and has its own clock. Its not a master clock or upscaler.


----------



## smodtactical

Sage Encore said:


> I wanted to wait since I just got it, but I cannot stay away from giving my initial impressions. Mind you the ocxo is still not stable I think, but it sounds really really good. The thing that truly stands out is the 3D of the presentation. The detail retrieval, the stereo imaging, staging is addictive. It’s so musical as well with a very Low noise floor if any at all. I definitely cannot hear any harshness and background is very quiet.
> 
> The ocxo once settled should bring the Termy to a very level to DACs costing much much more I feel. Words are not enough, u have to hear it in action. Oh God what have I got myself into now. Alvin you are the kind my mum advised to keep away from. Lol. This is a fantastic piece of gear and once you hear it, there’s no turning back I’m afraid. Photos to follow tomorrow guys, it’s going to be a late night for me I guess.
> 
> Whoever has ordered it, be prepared for some very late nights and early mornings.



Sounds amazing! I wish someone could compare it to DI20HE. Sounds like it might be better, most ppl with DI20HE mentioned it initially sounds bad. What is your whole chain ?


----------



## Sage Encore

Thenewguy007 said:


> Did you have any other DDC to compare to?


I was using Singxer SU1 and Gustard U16 quiet some time ago. Sold the Singxer to get the Gustard and then sold the Gustard after the DSP upgrade on my Termy.


----------



## Sage Encore

smodtactical said:


> Sounds amazing! I wish someone could compare it to DI20HE. Sounds like it might be better, most ppl with DI20HE mentioned it initially sounds bad. What is your whole chain ?


2x sotm switches (fully loaded)>Zenith Mk2>sms-200 ultra Neo (Full upgrades)>tx-usb ultra (Full upgrades)>Gaia>Termy>SPEC V1 amp>Abyss CC. 

1. SoTm Trifecta is clocked by SoTm Master clock (Going in soon for upgrade) using Tellurium Silver Diamond 75ohm and SoTm 50ohm BNC
2. Power cables are a combination of Tellurium Silver and Black
3. Ethernet cables are SoTm dcBl-cat 7 (4 runs) with ISO cat 6 blocks (2 blocks)
4. PSU are currently sps-500 (4units using Neotech solid core DC cable) Farad 3 OTW, just ordered.
5. Furutech cable lifters and Boosters
6. Shunyata Triton V1 power conditioner


----------



## smodtactical (May 31, 2020)

Sage Encore said:


> 2x sotm switches (fully loaded)>Zenith Mk2>sms-200 ultra Neo (Full upgrades)>tx-usb ultra (Full upgrades)>Gaia>Termy>SPEC V1 amp>Abyss CC.
> 
> 1. SoTm Trifecta is clocked by SoTm Master clock (Going in soon for upgrade) using Tellurium Silver Diamond 75ohm and SoTm 50ohm BNC
> 2. Power cables are a combination of Tellurium Silver and Black
> ...



Jesus man. This is one insane hell of a chain. Must be god rays coming out of the abyss.

No speakers?

Any pics of your setup?


----------



## Sage Encore

smodtactical said:


> Jesus man. This is one insane hell of a chain. Must be god rays coming out of the abyss.
> 
> No speakers?


Nope, do not have the space smodtactical for a speaker setup, but I have pretty much set it up for a speaker system if and when I can. I am very happy with my current set up. I feel its the closest you will get to speakers using headphones for depth and placement, but for resolution and details, I guess you will have to spend at least $100k to hear what I can hear on my headphones. Its very resolving and bloody addictive man. Toe tapping everytime I put it on.


----------



## smodtactical

Sage Encore said:


> Nope, do not have the space smodtactical for a speaker setup, but I have pretty much set it up for a speaker system if and when I can. I am very happy with my current set up. I feel its the closest you will get to speakers using headphones for depth and placement, but for resolution and details, I guess you will have to spend at least $100k to hear what I can hear on my headphones. Its very resolving and bloody addictive man. Toe tapping everytime I put it on.



Your amp is what $10k? And your abyss $6k? MSRP?

I would take that $16k. Get an Pass XP20 (About $8k new/4k used) and XA100.8s ($10k used) and finish it off with Sopra 3 ($10-12k used). Even if I get like $10k for your headphones and and amp total. I will spend about $15k out of pocket used and I bet have a pretty amazing system. Would be interesting to see how that system compares to the abyss. 

Maybe future ideas if you go to a new space.


----------



## Sage Encore

smodtactical said:


> Your amp is what $10k? And your abyss $6k? MSRP?
> 
> I would take that $16k. Get an Pass XP20 (About $8k new/4k used) and XA100.8s ($10k used) and finish it off with Sopra 3 ($10-12k used). Even if I get like $10k for your headphones and and amp total. I will spend about $15k out of pocket used and I bet have a pretty amazing system. Would be interesting to see how that system compares to the abyss.
> 
> Maybe future ideas if you go to a new space.


Hi Smod,
Thank you for your kind words and recommendations. TBH, I have never really bothered with the money part of it, I just buy what I can afford or stuff that's heavily recommended. I guess all of us are just as addicted to the jump in SQ when a gear is upgraded or added. I'm now waiting for the Farad 3 to be put in when it arrives. I love my sps-500 though its a SMPS and I have resisted changing it out thus far. I went very close to ordering a PH or a Plixir Elite but held off till my friend Ken from CA convinced me on the Farad. 

A good speaker set up will always be a better experience cause you get the depth and the overall staging that only a speaker setup can give, though the Abyss comes very close. The resolution, micro details though are why I love the Abyss. To me they are the best headphones money can buy at the moment at least. I do have a Audezez LCD3F and a Hifiman, but I can tell you, the Abyss smokes them to abyss and back. 

As for future plans, once kids get married its definietly on the cards. My wifey, she too understands that a nice dedicated room is a must for a speaker system to shine and give me the presentation that I crave. For now, my beloved Abyss is keeping me very happy. Cheers. Stay safe buddy.


----------



## Sage Encore

Guys, couldn’t help it, I bought the unit. I cannot imagine living without it after hearing it.


----------



## BlakeT

Sage Encore said:


> I'm now waiting for the Farad 3 to be put in when it arrives. I love my sps-500 though its a SMPS and I have resisted changing it out thus far. I went very close to ordering a PH or a Plixir Elite but held off till my friend Ken from CA convinced me on the Farad.
> 
> A good speaker set up will always be a better experience cause you get the depth and the overall staging that only a speaker setup can give, though the Abyss comes very close. The resolution, micro details though are why I love the Abyss. To me they are the best headphones money can buy at the moment at least. I do have a Audezez LCD3F and a Hifiman, but I can tell you, the Abyss smokes them to abyss and back.
> 
> As for future plans, once kids get married its definietly on the cards. My wifey, she too understands that a nice dedicated room is a must for a speaker system to shine and give me the presentation that I crave. For now, my beloved Abyss is keeping me very happy. Cheers. Stay safe buddy.



First, congratulations on the Gaia purchase!  Also, we must be surfing the same wave- I purchased a second Farad Super3 last week and it is supposed to ship today.  I also bought an Audio Sensibility Signature Silver DC cable for it.  I have the same Farad/Signature Silver powering my EtherRegen and liked it so much I decided to buy a second combo to power my UltraRendu.

I totally get it on the headphone vs. speaker setup.  Your headphones are at the top of the mountain and the rest of your system is outstanding as well so you are in excellent shape until you get your speaker setup and even then I bet you will use your headphones as well.  I listen to both headphones and speakers, although the majority of my time is spent listening to my speaker setup.  I was finally able to get a nice dedicated room for just my hifi, so I am able to get my listening chair and speakers in the optimal locations and then I added a bunch of acoustic diffusion and absorption treatments from Vicoustic and GIK and it is awesome.   Like you, I have a very cool wife that is supportive of my audio obsession.


----------



## BlakeT (Jun 1, 2020)

I should also mention- if anyone is looking for ethernet or usb cables for a DDC or other component, you need to take a serious look at Sablon Audio's newly designed for 2020 ethernet and usb cables.  

I ended up buying 4 of the Sablon ethernet cables and the usb cable and the sound quality is off the charts.  Check out ray-dude's 5 part review of the Taiko Extreme on audiophile style.  In one section, he discusses the Sablon cables and he obviously loves them as well.


----------



## Sage Encore (Jun 2, 2020)

BlakeT said:


> First, congratulations on the Gaia purchase!  Also, we must be surfing the same wave- I purchased a second Farad Super3 last week and it is supposed to ship today.  I also bought an Audio Sensibility Signature Silver DC cable for it.  I have the same Farad/Signature Silver powering my EtherRegen and liked it so much I decided to buy a second combo to power my UltraRendu.
> 
> I totally get it on the headphone vs. speaker setup.  Your headphones are at the top of the mountain and the rest of your system is outstanding as well so you are in excellent shape until you get your speaker setup and even then I bet you will use your headphones as well.  I listen to both headphones and speakers, although the majority of my time is spent listening to my speaker setup.  I was finally able to get a nice dedicated room for just my hifi, so I am able to get my listening chair and speakers in the optimal locations and then I added a bunch of acoustic diffusion and absorption treatments from Vicoustic and GIK and it is awesome.   Like you, I have a very cool wife that is supportive of my audio obsession.


Thank you for the kind words and a big thank you. Blake you might want to give the Mundorf Silver Hook up wires a try too. They are very highly regarded. The AS cable was also highly recommended on CA, so I guess you are safe hands there.


----------



## Sage Encore

BlakeT said:


> I should also mention- if anyone is looking for ethernet or usb cables for a DDC or other component, you need to take a serious look at Sablon Audio's newly designed for 2020 ethernet and usb cables.
> 
> I ended up buying 4 of the Sablon ethernet cables and the usb cable and the sound quality is off the charts.  Check out ray-dude's 5 part review of the Taiko Extreme on audiophile style.  In one section, he discusses the Sablon cables and he obviously loves them as well.


Mark has really worked his magic on those. Merlin's magic dust I guess. I used his USB before I switched to Tellurium SD.


----------



## johnzz4 (Jun 5, 2020)

Gaia ordered.  Just received a nice bump in sound quality with the latest DSP board, so I’m curious if the Gaia can take it even further.


----------



## smodtactical

All the terminator boys going Gaia eh. I feel left out. I ordered u1 mini + di20HE. I wish I could compare.


----------



## Sage Encore

johnzz4 said:


> Gaia ordered.  Just receive a nice bump in sound quality with the latest DSP board, so I’m curious if the Gaia can take it even further.


You are in for a treat John Z.


----------



## johnzz4

Sage Encore said:


> You are in for a treat John Z.


I'm looking forward to it.  By the way, what are you using for a connection and cable?  I'm assuming i2s via HDMI.  I just purchased a Wireworld Platinum Eclipse HDMI that's on the way, but I'm open to other suggestions.  This cable looks interesting:  https://www.tubulus.net/product/tubulus-argentus-i2s-cable/


----------



## koven

johnzz4 said:


> I'm looking forward to it.  By the way, what are you using for a connection and cable?  I'm assuming i2s via HDMI.  I just purchased a Wireworld Platinum Eclipse HDMI that's on the way, but I'm open to other suggestions.  This cable looks interesting:  https://www.tubulus.net/product/tubulus-argentus-i2s-cable/



Phasure makes an I2S as well, just another option for your consideration, I was pretty happy w/ their USB in the past. 
https://stordiau.com/collections/cables-and-more-snakes-oil/products/hdmi-2-i2s-cable


----------



## Sage Encore

johnzz4 said:


> I'm looking forward to it.  By the way, what are you using for a connection and cable?  I'm assuming i2s via HDMI.  I just purchased a Wireworld Platinum Eclipse HDMI that's on the way, but I'm open to other suggestions.  This cable looks interesting:  https://www.tubulus.net/product/tubulus-argentus-i2s-cable/


I sold my AQ Chocolate when I sold my Gustard U16. Hence now I'm using an el cheapo HDMI ($5) nothing fancy yet, but I tell what, the Gaia sounds fantastic even with this and a normal Power cord. Alvin has recommended this though, https://shop.sommercable.com/en/Cable/HiFi-Home/Multimediakabel-EXCELSIOR-BlueWater-EBH4.html


----------



## Sage Encore

johnzz4 said:


> I'm looking forward to it.  By the way, what are you using for a connection and cable?  I'm assuming i2s via HDMI.  I just purchased a Wireworld Platinum Eclipse HDMI that's on the way, but I'm open to other suggestions.  This cable looks interesting:  https://www.tubulus.net/product/tubulus-argentus-i2s-cable/


That cable looks really good. Not crazy money too.


----------



## Thenewguy007

Sage Encore said:


> Guys, couldn’t help it, I bought the unit. I cannot imagine living without it after hearing it.



Did they offer a trial period?


----------



## Sage Encore

Thenewguy007 said:


> Did they offer a trial period?


Hi,
I never did ask Alvin, but he is very confident in the Gaia and true enough it exceeded all expectations when I put it into my chain. I am still wondering how more it will improve with a nice hdmi and power cord, cause as of now I’m still running an el  cheapo hdmi and a quiet basic power cord. The PC is a Monster 400 line.

Hope I answered your question sir. Suggest u get in touch with Alvin and enquire. His sales and after sales service is one of the best in the industry imho.


----------



## S Crowther

I wonder how they compare to Alvin’s previous recommendation, the Singxer SU-6?


----------



## Sage Encore

S Crowther said:


> I wonder how they compare to Alvin’s previous recommendation, the Singxer SU-6?


Just today I passed my Gaia to a friend who wanted to try it out on his setup. He's using a souped up SU-1. Initial impressions were that the Gaia is more coherent, cleaner, quieter, better focus and improved dynamics.  

Of course there are tons of gear out there to be recommended, all in good faith. I'm just sharing my findings here and that's what this thread is about isn't it?  Every setup is unique and every ear with different taste. As always YMMV. If there is someone out there with another DDC and can compare it with the Gaia please do share your impressions here so that we can share and learn from each others' experience. Thank you.


----------



## smodtactical

Sage Encore said:


> Just today I passed my Gaia to a friend who wanted to try it out on his setup. He's using a souped up SU-1. Initial impressions were that the Gaia is more coherent, cleaner, quieter, better focus and improved dynamics.
> 
> Of course there are tons of gear out there to be recommended, all in good faith. I'm just sharing my findings here and that's what this thread is about isn't it?  Every setup is unique and every ear with different taste. As always YMMV. If there is someone out there with another DDC and can compare it with the Gaia please do share your impressions here so that we can share and learn from each others' experience. Thank you.



Any of your friends have a DI20HE? Thats the showdown I really want to see. Im sure the Gaia will win but by  how much?


----------



## Sage Encore

smodtactical said:


> Any of your friends have a DI20HE? Thats the showdown I really want to see. Im sure the Gaia will win but by  how much?


Sorry Smod no luck on that front I’m afraid.


----------



## Roasty

koven said:


> Phasure makes an I2S as well, just another option for your consideration, I was pretty happy w/ their USB in the past.
> https://stordiau.com/collections/cables-and-more-snakes-oil/products/hdmi-2-i2s-cable



i have the phasure i2s hdmi cable and it is really amazing. super transparent, clear, lush. but by far the most notable improvement was the soundstage and 3d imaging. i sold off my other (much cheaper) hdmi cables after getting the one from phasure, and then, ordered another one from him for my other setup. i also have his lush^2 usb, and am now contemplating their XLR interconnects..


----------



## Sage Encore

I'm leaning towards the Tubulus Argentus though the Phasure as recommended does look pretty darn good as well. Anyone using the Tubulus? Thank you guys.


----------



## smodtactical

Well my DI20HE is DOA. So waiting for Kingwa for the return. Might consider Gaia now.


----------



## BlakeT

^ No problem, join us on the dark side ^ 

As a side note, Alvin says they are still having some delays with the Gaia caused by the case supplier.


----------



## johnzz4

I have the Wireworld Platinum HDMI that just arrived, the Argentus that will be here in 2 to 3 weeks, and a budget HDMI that’s certified for the new HDMI 2.1 spec.  I know the HDMI 2.1 spec isn’t important for this application, but it may have some bearing on tolerances, noise rejection, etc.  The Gaia is about 3-4 weeks out based on what Alvin shared.  I’ll report back on the cables once I’ve tested them out.


----------



## alvin1118

Slowly but surely. Thank you guys for your kind patience! 

Cheers,
Alvin
www.vinshineaudio.com


----------



## johnzz4

Sage Encore said:


> You are in for a treat John Z.


Sage.. Have you noticed any changes in the sound with more hours on the Gaia?


----------



## Sage Encore

johnzz4 said:


> Sage.. Have you noticed any changes in the sound with more hours on the Gaia?


Hi John,
Unit is currently with a friend of mine who wanted to give it a shot. Will report back once it's back. Meanwhile I'm also looking at getting a Tellurium Black PC (Loan) to see if it does improve things. I do have a Tellurium Silver with me me too, so I will try that out too when I get it back.

i too am waiting on your report for the HDMI to get the Tubulus. Cheers.


----------



## Zachik

Anyone tried the much cheaper Iris? 
@alvin1118 - any news on the in-between Hermes? Can you share comparison info to the Iris and Gaia? Target price?


----------



## richardloh (Jul 6, 2020)

Hi,

With the Denafrip gaia and especially Terminator owners, do consider the newly released Terminator Plus ... my newly received one is NOT a small improvement over the standard Terminator that I quickly sold.

While usd2k difference seems a lot, no amount of cabling, power supply etc. and other audio voodoos that we often spent on can beat new technology in my opinion, including coveted possibility of synced clock with sources in the likes of esotetic, dCS etc. This is of course only if your sources allows it which gaia does so as part of the Denafrips' new "eco" system which 4 yrs old standard Denafrips is not part of.

Speculative since no information both dual ocxo clocks but do take a look at the enclosed photos of giaa and Terminator Plus with encapsulated and high chances that the associated electronics defers positively with the new flagship Denafrips.

Yes, I am waiting for demo gaia to try out having it primarily for digital output from my bel canto fm1 tuner but for my Nuprime omnia S1 and Avatar with i2s, it goes directly into the Terminator Plus to avoid added cables, connector and going into extra device of gaia.

Cheers.

Richard

1. Gaia





2. Terminator Plus:




Synced clock sources e.g. Gaia to Terminator Plus:


----------



## Sage Encore

I was wondering, who makes cables at those impedance? Are they available readily? Sorry for my ignorance.


----------



## BlakeT (Jul 14, 2020)

My Gaia arrived a couple days ago, so it is not even close to being fully burned in and sounding its best, but I will just make a few preliminary comments about what I am hearing.  First, if there is a better D/D converter on the planet, I'd sure like to hear it.  If anyone is thinking this is just a box to convert one digital format to another, that couldn't be further from reality.  You need to think of it as a sonic enhancer.

I am floored by the improvements the Gaia is making to a Chord Qutest and I have a decent amount of prior experience with other very top of the line D/D converters, the Gaia improvements are much, much bigger than improvements I experience with these other top D/D converters.  The improvements to the sound stage and transparency are huge.  Holographic for days. I'm in heaven.

More thoughts after my Gaia burns in and my Terminator Plus arrives.


----------



## Roasty

BlakeT said:


> My Gaia arrived a couple days ago, so it is not even close to being fully burned in and sounding its best, but I will just make a few preliminary comments about what I am hearing.  First, if there is a better D/D converter on the planet, I'd sure like to hear it.  If anyone is thinking this is just a box to convert one digital format to another, that couldn't be further from reality.  You need to think of it as a sonic enhancer.
> 
> I am floored by the improvements the Gaia is making to a Chord Qutest and I have a decent amount of prior experience with other very top of the line D/D converters.  The improvements to the sound stage and transparency are huge.  Holographic for days. I'm in heaven.
> 
> More thoughts after my Gaia burns in and my Terminator Plus arrives.



If I missed it, could u share again what other dd converters u have used? Thanks!


----------



## Zachik

Anyone tried the much cheaper Iris?
Any news or info on the in-between Hermes?
Anyone compared either Iris or Gaia to AudioGD's DI-20HE?


----------



## BlakeT (Jul 14, 2020)

Roasty said:


> If I missed it, could u share again what other dd converters u have used? Thanks!



See my Post #198 in the "15 USB/SPDIF converters shootout" thread on AS (formerly CA)- can't post links here on Head-Fi. Those are some I've owned.

To be clear, before anyone attacks, I am not declaring this to be the best D/D converter in the world (who could say?), I am just having a hard time believing anything else out there surpasses the Gaia, *IMHO*.  Perhaps something does, but this Gaia is significantly better than any other D/D converter I've owned.

*P.S. Further edit-* my comments are based on my speaker setup, in a dedicated audio room with lots of acoustic room treatments, ideal speaker positioning, etc.  I'm not sure if the sound staging improvements would be adequately revealed with headphones only, but the improvements to transparency sure would.


----------



## richardloh (Jul 14, 2020)

BlakeT said:


> See my Post #198 in the "15 USB/SPDIF converters shootout" thread on AS (formerly CA)- can't post links here on Head-Fi. Those are some I've owned.
> 
> To be clear, before anyone attacks, I am not declaring this to be the best D/D converter in the world (who could say?), I am just having a hard time believing anything else out there surpasses the Gaia, *IMHO*.  Perhaps something does, but this Gaia is significantly better than any other D/D converter I've owned.
> 
> *P.S. Further edit-* my comments are based on my speaker setup, in a dedicated audio room with lots of acoustic room treatments, ideal speaker positioning, etc.  I'm not sure if the sound staging improvements would be adequately revealed with headphones only, but the improvements to transparency sure would.



Hi Blake,

Congras !!

It is always ymmv and system dependent on the the extend of effects on any new components .. dun worry, we all understand else one should ONLY be in audioscience forum instead with lab equipment measurements before any sharing.

I am also keen to have the gaia but heard that it may be quite some time before I can receive a demo unit due to production/shipping schedule.

I love the idea of having my digital sources e.g. fm tuner, music servers/renderers etc. synced to my Terminator Plus with its ocxo clock and believe that while the gaia is already with also ocxo clock, the one in Terminator Plus is one step higher quality.

Will test out doing so especially with the avatar also included in the mix when I can get my hands of the gaia to share here   ... wink wink Alvin if you are reading this or not sure if you have the avatar to test out this with your pending receipt of the Terminator Plus before me on the gaia.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## Sage Encore

BlakeT said:


> See my Post #198 in the "15 USB/SPDIF converters shootout" thread on AS (formerly CA)- can't post links here on Head-Fi. Those are some I've owned.
> 
> To be clear, before anyone attacks, I am not declaring this to be the best D/D converter in the world (who could say?), I am just having a hard time believing anything else out there surpasses the Gaia, *IMHO*.  Perhaps something does, but this Gaia is significantly better than any other D/D converter I've owned.
> 
> *P.S. Further edit-* my comments are based on my speaker setup, in a dedicated audio room with lots of acoustic room treatments, ideal speaker positioning, etc.  I'm not sure if the sound staging improvements would be adequately revealed with headphones only, but the improvements to transparency sure would.


Hi Blake,
I’m using Abyss Phi CC headphones and I can tell u the staging improvements are clearly audible and can be heard. Transparency and resolution? Not even worth mentioning cause it’s so bloody good. One more thing just as reminder, do be careful with the Tubulus cause it’s solid core silver. It will break if u keep bending it. I would suggest u map out your route and make the bend first before installation. No 90 degree bends too boss. Enjoy.


----------



## BlakeT (Jul 15, 2020)

Hi, well there you go.  The sound staging shines through in headphones as well!

I haven't tried my headphones with the Gaia system yet due to some logistical issues.  Glad that you are hearing the same magic that I am with the Gaia.

Thanks for the tip on the Tubulus Argentus.  I will do a very careful "U" bend before installing.


----------



## yyzSB (Jul 21, 2020)

I am curious as to how people are connecting the Gaia to the network. Since it does not seem to have Ethernet input, what input device is used? I have a Sonore microRendu. Would that work and also provide a ROON end point? I also have a computer that silently runs ROON near buy so I guess I could connect via the USB on the computer. Though a computer does not seem like what most people would want to use.


I should add that I am also considering the Sonore OpticalRendu Lite for ROON Only. The conversion to optical fibre many have advantages to what the Gaia is doing, when considering analog noise.


----------



## BlakeT (Jul 21, 2020)

yyzSB said:


> I am curious as to how people are connecting the Gaia to the network. Since it does not seem to have Ethernet input, what input device is used? I have a Sonore microRendu. Would that work and also provide a ROON end point?



I am using an UltraRendu (Roon) with success.


----------



## BlakeT

My personal, entirely subjective impressions using the Gaia with the *Chord Qutest*: (I now have my Terminator Plus, I will post some thoughts about that combo later- the TPlus is still new and burning in):

The Gaia transforms the Qutest.  I had to keep checking myself since the Gaia arrived to make sure I was hearing the magnitude of change I believed I was hearing.  Yep, it is real.  I could see the Qutest+Gaia combo as an "end game" combo for the vast majority of audiophiles.  

If I had been listening to the Qutest just by itself for a long time, and then I was blind-folded and someone connected the Gaia to the Qutest, but told me they had inserted a Dave*, I would believe them and immediately start figuring out how long it would take me to save up for the Dave because hearing the improvements, it would be difficult to go without.  Again, though, that is just me.

*I have not heard the Dave in my system and thus I am not saying a Qutest+Gaia would equal a Dave.  I am just trying to express the magnitude of the change.  After my years of buying and trying different DAC's in my system, I view the Gaia improvements to comfortably exceed one, and possibly equal even two DAC model jumps within a manufacturer's DAC line. 

Another data point:  I loved my Berkelely Alpha USB D/D converter and it improved every DAC to which it was connected (most recently a Yggy Analog 2).  The sonic improvements brought by Gaia exceed the sonic improvements from the Berkeley by a rather large margin.

I'd love to put a Gaia up against a PhoenixUSB or Chord M Scaler just to see how it compares (yes, I appreciate these are differing devices and it would be a somewhat flawed comparison due to the different connection types).  If you simply view all of these devices as "sonic improvement" devices at differing price points, which at the end of the day is what they are (thinking of the Gaia as merely a tool to convert to a different digital type is really missing the big point of the Gaia), the Gaia might prove to be a cheaper alternative for a given amount of sonic improvement.

What are the primary sonic improvements?  Dramatic (on an audiophile rating scale- i.e. not to my wife's rating scale) improvements to holography/sound staging and transparency (hearing even more musical information, details, the impression of the recording venue, etc).  The sound stage is huge and there is so much air between the performers.  I really value those aspects.  If those sonic attributes are not what floats your boat, then move along, nothing to see here.

Finally, as a Terminator Plus owner, the ability to take advantage of the TPlus' clock output to the upstream Gaia, is more icing on the Gaia cake.


----------



## johnzz4

BlakeT said:


> My personal, entirely subjective impressions using the Gaia with the *Chord Qutest*: (I now have my Terminator Plus, I will post some thoughts about that combo later- the TPlus is still new and burning in):
> 
> The Gaia transforms the Qutest.  I had to keep checking myself since the Gaia arrived to make sure I was hearing the magnitude of change I believed I was hearing.  Yep, it is real.  I could see the Qutest+Gaia combo as an "end game" combo for the vast majority of audiophiles.
> 
> ...



The T+ needs some time to fully open up.  Can't wait to hear your impressions of the Gaia/T+ combo.  Keep in mind that the i2s and clock cables have a pretty dramatic impact on the sound.  After a couple of weeks, I'm blown away by what I'm hearing after optimizing the cables and allowing time for everything to settle in.  Enjoy!


----------



## BlakeT (Jul 25, 2020)

johnzz4 said:


> The T+ needs some time to fully open up.  Can't wait to hear your impressions of the Gaia/T+ combo.  Keep in mind that the i2s and clock cables have a pretty dramatic impact on the sound.  After a couple of weeks, I'm blown away by what I'm hearing after optimizing the cables and allowing time for everything to settle in.  Enjoy!



Thanks John!  I just got my Tubulus Argentus HDMI shipping notice.  It arrives on Tuesday and I will use it in place of the Sablon ethernet so for I2S I will be LVDS, rather than LVCMOS.  My Kimber D60's for the clocks are also new and need to burn in.


----------



## yyzSB

What does the Gaia do that is different from a streamer such as an OpticalRendu? I can see that it can connect to the preferred I2S input, is there anything else? I am seriously considering the TP but I want to know why the DDC units from Denafrips are the way to go. Another option for me would be to take USB output from an OpticalRendu and connect to the TP. Why is the Gaia or Iris way the better choice?

My understanding is that the internal clock on the Gaia is bypassed if you connect the TP to it, since the TP has the same clock. So an Iris maybe the way to go with the TP. I say this based on what Alvin Chee mentioned to me but I am not sure what the role the clock plays in any of this to make the sound better.


----------



## johnzz4

BlakeT said:


> Thanks John!  I just got my Tubulus Argentus HDMI shipping notice.  It arrives on Tuesday and I will use it in place of the Sablon ethernet so for I2S I will be LVDS, rather than LVCMOS.  My Kimber D60's for the clocks are also new and need to burn in.


Ha, I just ordered the D60s on Thursday to compare to the Apogee Wyde Eye.  The Argentus needs time - about 3-4 days.  Don’t worry if you hear some sharpness in the treble.. it will pass and become perfectly smooth.


----------



## Zachik

Still no comparisons to the DI-20 by AudioGD?
What about the Iris?  This thread is for both Iris and Gaia. I am sure the Gaia is awesome, but the Iris is so much more affordable!


----------



## johnzz4

yyzSB said:


> What does the Gaia do that is different from a streamer such as an OpticalRendu? I can see that it can connect to the preferred I2S input, is there anything else? I am seriously considering the TP but I want to know why the DDC units from Denafrips are the way to go. Another option for me would be to take USB output from an OpticalRendu and connect to the TP. Why is the Gaia or Iris way the better choice?
> 
> My understanding is that the internal clock on the Gaia is bypassed if you connect the TP to it, since the TP has the same clock. So an Iris maybe the way to go with the TP. I say this based on what Alvin Chee mentioned to me but I am not sure what the role the clock plays in any of this to make the sound better.


If you have no desire for any other inputs besides USB, there may not be an advantage to the Gaia.  I personally use AES, USB, and Toslink, so I am able to convert all of them to i2s.  Alvin could probably confirm for you.


----------



## Sage Encore

johnzz4 said:


> The T+ needs some time to fully open up.  Can't wait to hear your impressions of the Gaia/T+ combo.  Keep in mind that the i2s and clock cables have a pretty dramatic impact on the sound.  After a couple of weeks, I'm blown away by what I'm hearing after optimizing the cables and allowing time for everything to settle in.  Enjoy!


Hi John,
Cables make a huge difference as I have always preached about. U get what u pay for I guess.


----------



## Sage Encore

Zachik said:


> Still no comparisons to the DI-20 by AudioGD?
> What about the Iris?  This thread is for both Iris and Gaia. I am sure the Gaia is awesome, but the Iris is so much more affordable!


Hi,
I’m currently running an Iris mated to my TP and I must say, it would keep a lot of ppl happy bunnies for a long while. Once my Gaia comes in, I will be sure to share my thoughts between the 2 units. Hope I can get the Hermes for a test too which uses TXCO clock instead of the much more expensive OCXO clock. The thing is if the TP takes over clocking duties then it renders the clocks in the DDC redundant I guess, but then there are many other aspects to the sound difference than just clocks. The PSU, caps, circuit topology all play a huge role as well. Only way to get to any concrete conclusion would be to run the DDCs and listen. As for me, I just go for the best I can afford and don’t look back, that’s just me though.


----------



## Zachik

johnzz4 said:


> If you have no desire for any other inputs besides USB, there may not be an advantage to the Gaia.


I am only going to use USB.



Sage Encore said:


> Hi,
> I’m currently running an Iris mated to my TP and I must say, it would keep a lot of ppl happy bunnies for a long while. Once my Gaia comes in, I will be sure to share my thoughts between the 2 units. Hope I can get the Hermes for a test too which uses TXCO clock instead of the much more expensive OCXO clock. The thing is if the TP takes over clocking duties then it renders the clocks in the DDC redundant I guess, but then there are many other aspects to the sound difference than just clocks. The PSU, caps, circuit topology all play a huge role as well. Only way to get to any concrete conclusion would be to run the DDCs and listen. As for me, I just go for the best I can afford and don’t look back, that’s just me though.


Cannot wait for your Iris vs. Gaia vs. Hermes impressions!
I am also considering the Audio-GD DI-20...


----------



## yyzSB

I think my plan is to get the "Sonore optialRendu LITE for ROON Only" to go Fibre Optical to eliminate some Ethernet analog noise. Then connect that by USB to a Denafrips Iris which will connect by I2S to the T+. I need to talk with Alvin to see why this is good or bad but it seems like a good approach.


----------



## richardloh

Ummh .. just realised gaia is worldwide operating voltage aka switching power supply.

Let's see .....

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## gimmeheadroom

Sorry guys, I am totally lost. What is a DDC? Is this yet another word for an upsampler? Reclocker? Format converter? Something else?


----------



## richardloh (Jul 26, 2020)

gimmeheadroom said:


> Sorry guys, I am totally lost. What is a DDC? Is this yet another word for an upsampler? Reclocker? Format converter? Something else?



Hi Gimmeheadroom,

DDC = Digital to Digital Converter

Often we want to change from one digital format and connection type to another.

For example, your dac may not have usb input but a DDC can be added to take your source with usb output to convert to coaxial output to fit the coaxial input of your dac.

In the case of gaia,

- it has i2s output that some of us prefers to the Terminators that has such i2s input

- Some may also wants better ocxo clock in the gaia as compared to the clock of the source for lower jitters aka higher sound quality

- last but not least, the gaia has clock inputs to be synced i.e. replaced by the even better ocxo equipped Terminator Plus in the hope of lower jitters

You are not wrong ... various DDC in the market and may do upsampling, reclocking in additional to key function of a format changer.

Cheers

Richard


----------



## richardloh (Jul 26, 2020)

BlakeT said:


> Thanks John!  I just got my Tubulus Argentus HDMI shipping notice.  It arrives on Tuesday and I will use it in place of the Sablon ethernet so for I2S I will be LVDS, rather than LVCMOS.  My Kimber D60's for the clocks are also new and need to burn in.



Hi Blake,

Unless already used up by another source, I2s B RJ4 is also lvds like i2s A hdmi for both standard and plus version of the Terminators .. it is i2s C RJ45 that is LVCMOS.

Not learned or able to provide any technical justification but I do prefer well established industrial used ethernet cable to consumer home av hdmi cable/connector.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## BlakeT

richardloh said:


> Hi Blake,
> 
> Unless already used up by another source, I2s B RJ4 is also lvds like i2s A hdmi for both standard and plus version of the Terminators .. it is i2s C RJ45 that is LVCMOS.
> 
> ...



Hi Richard.  In my use case with Gaia, the RJ45 output on the Gaia is *I2S-C*.  There is no RJ45 I2S-B ouput on the Gaia.  Hence, in order to be LVDS, I need to run HDMI from my Gaia to my TPlus.  Having said that, I am currently running a Sablon ethernet from Gaia I2S-C to TPlus I2S-C and it sounds terrific.  Therefore LVCMOS is not such a bad thing after all.


----------



## johnzz4

richardloh said:


> Hi Blake,
> 
> Unless already used up by another source, I2s B RJ4 is also lvds like i2s A hdmi for both standard and plus version of the Terminators .. it is i2s C RJ45 that is LVCMOS.
> 
> ...


Richard, the limitation isn’t with the T+ inputs, it’s withe the Gaia outputs.  Gaia has two i2s outputs:  1) HDMI LVDS  and  2) RJ45 LVCMOS.  As a result, to pair the T+ with the Gaia via i2s LVDS, HDMI is the only option. I, too, would generally prefer Ethernet, but the Argentus is a specialty i2s cable - so much so that it removes unnecessary wires and doesn’t meet the HDMI spec.  I can attest to how good the cable is.  That said, I did try Ethernet and the LVCMOS also sounded very good.


----------



## Sage Encore (Jul 26, 2020)

johnzz4 said:


> Richard, the limitation isn’t with the T+ inputs, it’s withe the Gaia outputs.  Gaia has two i2s outputs:  1) HDMI LVDS  and  2) RJ45 LVCMOS.  As a result, to pair the T+ with the Gaia via i2s LVDS, HDMI is the only option. I, too, would generally prefer Ethernet, but the Argentus is a specialty i2s cable - so much so that it removes unnecessary wires and doesn’t meet the HDMI spec.  I can attest to how good the cable is.  That said, I did try Ethernet and the LVCMOS also sounded very good.


Hi John,
How do they compare? Is there a difference?


----------



## Sage Encore

richardloh said:


> Ummh .. just realised gaia is worldwide operating voltage aka switching power supply.
> 
> Let's see .....
> 
> ...


Hi Richard,
Sorry for the ignorance, but for those of us who are uneducated in the electrical field, is this an issue? cause circuit designers use relay and auto voltage detection modules and relays to detect the incoming voltage and adjust it accordingly. They DO NOT use SMPS. This circuit topolgy is used quiet alot across the industry and even MSB use it among others.

Is this bad? TP uses the same circuit design as well when it comes to input voltage detection. Would you care to enlighten us on the shortfalls of this design and advise? Thank you so much for your proffesional input, its much appreciated.


----------



## richardloh (Jul 27, 2020)

Sage Encore said:


> Hi Richard,
> Sorry for the ignorance, but for those of us who are uneducated in the electrical field, is this an issue? cause circuit designers use relay and auto voltage detection modules and relays to detect the incoming voltage and adjust it accordingly. They DO NOT use SMPS. This circuit topolgy is used quiet alot across the industry and even MSB use it among others.
> 
> Is this bad? TP uses the same circuit design as well when it comes to input voltage detection. Would you care to enlighten us on the shortfalls of this design and advise? Thank you so much for your proffesional input, its much appreciated.



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/old...minator-plus-terminator-arrives.936310/page-5

Post #74 and 75


----------



## mordicai (Jul 27, 2020)

About 100 hrs on the Iris. My SU 1 died. Using it with a HoloSprings 2 and a PrimaLuna Evo. I enjoyed the sound this combo with the Singxer gave me. So far I’m finding the Iris to be brittle; the highs a bit raw. To me it’s not a sweet, smooth musical sound. Like I say, it’s only my fourth day and things may smooth out. I’m shocked at how much the Iris has taken over the sound from the holo.


----------



## johnzz4

mordicai said:


> About 100 hrs on the Iris. My SU 1 died. Using it with a HoloSprings 2 and a PrimaLuna Evo. I enjoyed the sound this combo with the Singxer gave me. So far I’m finding the Iris to be brittle; the highs a bit raw. To me it’s not a sweet, smooth musical sound. Like I say, it’s only my fourth day and things may smooth out. I’m shocked at how much the Iris has taken over the sound from the holo.


Unless the Iris is completely different than the Gaia, it likely just need some more time, or I would take a look at your cables.  Also, LVCMOS or LVDS on the Holo?  Not sure if that would play into it.


----------



## mordicai

johnzz4 said:


> Unless the Iris is completely different than the Gaia, it likely just need some more time, or I would take a look at your cables.  Also, LVCMOS or LVDS on the Holo?  Not sure if that would play into it.
> [/QUOT
> You have a Gaia? Does it take an extremly long burn in time? My experience with caps is they usually get to 70% by 110 hrs. I’ll give it 300 hrs and then decide


----------



## richardloh

mordicai said:


> About 100 hrs on the Iris. My SU 1 died. Using it with a HoloSprings 2 and a PrimaLuna Evo. I enjoyed the sound this combo with the Singxer gave me. So far I’m finding the Iris to be brittle; the highs a bit raw. To me it’s not a sweet, smooth musical sound. Like I say, it’s only my fourth day and things may smooth out. I’m shocked at how much the Iris has taken over the sound from the holo.



Hi mordicai,

What is the reason for adding the SU1 or Iris DDC to the holo2 dac ? Format change ?

More importantly for available input format in both SU1/Iris and the holo2 dac, kindly share your experience of connecting these DDCs vs directly into to holo2 dac and your thoughts on the reasons of any impact to sound quality at least in your case/system.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## mordicai

richardloh said:


> Hi mordicai,
> 
> What is the reason for adding the SU1 or Iris DDC to the holo2 dac ? Format change ?
> 
> ...


----------



## mordicai (Jul 30, 2020)

The Iris is around 200+ hours and starting to mellow out. Big relief And glad I put  faith in Alvin


----------



## Zachik

mordicai said:


> The Iris is around 200+ hours and starting to mellow out. Big relief And glad I put  faith in Alvin


Keep us posted - I am still debating between the Iris and DI-20 from Audio GD... I might consider the middle tier Hermes, but still waiting for it to be out (and for reviews / impressions).
If *Alvin* would be willing to ship one to me, I would be more than happy to be the beta tester / guinea pig 
In fact, *I wish I could compare at home, on MY setup, the Iris vs. Hermes.* Too much $ for the Gaia, so out of my price range, and frankly I am disappointed the DI-20 does not have an optical out (I use SPDIF or AES into my main DAC, and optical into my secondary DAC)...


----------



## S Crowther

Zachik said:


> Keep us posted - I am still debating between the Iris and DI-20 from Audio GD... I might consider the middle tier Hermes, but still waiting for it to be out (and for reviews / impressions).
> If *Alvin* would be willing to ship one to me, I would be more than happy to be the beta tester / guinea pig
> In fact, *I wish I could compare at home, on MY setup, the Iris vs. Hermes.* Too much $ for the Gaia, so out of my price range, and frankly I am disappointed the DI-20 does not have an optical out (I use SPDIF or AES into my main DAC, and optical into my secondary DAC)...


Alvin previously recommended Singxter SU-6. Have you considered that possibility?


----------



## Zachik

S Crowther said:


> Alvin previously recommended Singxter SU-6. Have you considered that possibility?


I did not. Several people on the DI-20 thread commented that the DI-20 blows the SU-6 out of the water... I am assuming the Iris or Hermes should be in the same level (as DI-20) or better...


----------



## motberg

richardloh said:


> Hi mordicai,
> 
> What is the reason for adding the SU1 or Iris DDC to the holo2 dac ? Format change ?
> 
> ...


----------



## richardloh (Jul 31, 2020)

motberg said:


> I remember a prior discussion on this exact same topic pointing to one possible reason could be that the USB>i2s (or SPDIF) conversion is relatively noisy (electronically) so advantageous to keeping this conversion separate from the DAC electronics. However, some recent DAC's do a very good job with the conversion internally, for example I compared the Audio-GD R1 internal (isolated, Crystek reclocked Amanero) vs, my very well powered SU-1 via i2s and could not hear a difference in output quality. Of course with the conversion separate, more space and resources can be put into isolation, power, clocking, signal integrity, etc.



Hi motberg,

Noted and thanks.

Fingercrossed and hope so too when I receives the demo gaia.

However,  there is no more space and resources can be put into isolation, power, clocking, signal integrity, etc. since the gaia is also with multiple inputs and not a dedicated usb->i2 converter.

My current thinking is that it will be worse due to the following:

- isolation, psu etc. is superior in flagship T+
- ocxo clock in the gaia which I believe will be needed for conversion is inferior to the sealed ocxo clock of the T+
- exposure of i2s signal to more jitter with added wire and conponents of a non flagship gaia .. best wire is no wire technically if we want neutrality

Other digital signals input however may benefit from the synced clock but usb with different clocking protocol is less likely

To be advised.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## richardloh

Hi All,

First of all, daisy chain of Avatar and gaia input to oxco clock output of T+ works !! This is really a denafrips ecosystem of digital playback though not advertised as such by denafrips 😃

Secondly, key objective of getting aes-ebu output of my Bel Canto fm-1 tuner to gaia to convert to i2s and synced to oxco clock of T+ sounds so much better ..  more detailed and clean with blacker background like veil had been lifted as compared to direct aes-ebu output directly to T+. Asked my dotter as I switch between the 2 and she remarked "you need to ask ? So obvious !" 🤣

Thirdly, on this main query if usb input directly to T+ or via gaia to convert to i2s that is synced to the oxco clock of T+, there is no miracle for the usb of my Antipodes ex and sounded less detailed and less engaging.

Speculative but the usb output from my Antipodes is no slouch and does not benefit from going via gaia but a lesser usb source may.

Similarly, the aes-ebu of my Bel Canto tuner benefitted very much via the gaia after conversion to i2s and synced to the ocxo clock of T+ but perhaps a higher quality aes-ebu or other digital source of say esoteric k series transport may not ... Avatar that I tested for sure benefits when synced to T+ .. more solid imaging and prat.

Hope this helps and YMMV since system dependent, personal preference and past experience ... I am still enjoying my Bel Canto fm 1 (this betters previous Accuphase T1000) for the last 2 hrs and it is unbelievable that fm radio can sound this good 😍😍

Cheers.

Richard

PS: Black gaia with customised blue leds ordered as with a 0.75m Argentus hdmi cable 🥰🥰


----------



## richardloh

_*Speculative but the usb output from my Antipodes is no slouch and does not benefit from going via gaia but a lesser usb source may.*_

Hi All,

For completeness of the abovementioned, I connected my allo's usb bridge to the gaia and behold the needed validation ... the sound quality improved to more detailed, dense and musical presentation ! 😃

Believe this final update sums up the outcome of my planned venture with gaia with synced clock to T+ and i2s and should help bros here to consider the digital source quality if gaia will improve the sound quality of your system if you have the T+.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## edwardsean (Aug 2, 2020)

The internals of the Gaia look amazing, way more complex than the Innuos Phoenix I own and love. It would be great to get a comparison between these two. If anyone finds one  please link it.

Nevermind, I just saw that neither the Gaia nor Iris has a USB out. These are very hard to implement properly and so for USB it seems like Phoenix is still the way to go. However with other connections this looks amazing, esp. I2S for Denapfrips DACs.


----------



## richardloh (Aug 2, 2020)

I2S and synced sealed ocxo clock of T+ 👍👍🥳


----------



## richardloh

Hi,

Just listened to the allo's usb bridge signature via the gaia and T+ and compared the Antipodes directly via the T+  with various same tracks on both 

Without the gaia for both allo's and Antipodes to the T+nthat I am very familiar with, it was like subjectively 60-70% for the allo's if Antipodes is at 90% ....

With the gaia for allo's, it gets to 75-80% of the Antipodes which is quite impressive and nice as a backup server but it also tells me just how nice the Antipodes is .. crisp, clear and extended in comparison.

Again ymmv and this helps further ... 4am and really to shower and sleep but no worry of listener fatigue to have messed up the subjective comparison.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## yyzSB

Can the Gaia be used to output to 2 different DACs. That is stream by USB into the GAIA input and then output to 2 different DACS. The one that is used would be the DAC that is powered on?


----------



## richardloh

yyzSB said:


> Can the Gaia be used to output to 2 different DACs. That is stream by USB into the GAIA input and then output to 2 different DACS. The one that is used would be the DAC that is powered on?



Hi yyzSB,

I believe all outputs of gaia or any ddc are active and you can leave both dac powered on to select which one to use as input to  your preamp to amp or integrated amp when both are connected dac are connected to it.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## jazzbug

I'm in the same boat, need a good HDMI cable between my DCC and PS Audio DSD.
It's RAL, Phasure or Tubulus I'd choose from, hope someone has the experience and comparison...


----------



## mordicai

jazzbug said:


> I'm in the same boat, need a good HDMI cable between my DCC and PS Audio DSD.
> It's RAL, Phasure or Tubulus I'd choose from, hope someone has the experience and comparison...


Blue Jeans Cable


----------



## richardloh (Aug 7, 2020)

jazzbug said:


> I'm in the same boat, need a good HDMI cable between my DCC and PS Audio DSD.
> It's RAL, Phasure or Tubulus I'd choose from, hope someone has the experience and comparison...



Hi Jazz,

I only had my friend's tubulus argentus to try which clearly sounded better than my pangea and hence argentus it is .. plus friend gets 10% off as repeating customer or sgd708 for the 0.75m length.

No intention to spent beyond that and try to keep sanity as well as cabling 20-25% else equipment/technological upgrade always make more and obvious improvement to me like Terminator+ that I dun have to stay after midnight or close my eyes to hear any difference if any. 

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## richardloh (Aug 7, 2020)

mordicai said:


> Blue Jeans Cable



Hi Mordicai,

Yes .. great vfm cable that I had used especially digital ones from Canare, Mogami etc. for pro audio but only if still with my 25 yr old audiolab equipment worth sgd1-2k.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## jazzbug

Thx Richard, and yes I'm totally with you


----------



## richardloh (Aug 8, 2020)

Hi,

For those having gaia and avatar and certainly should daisy chain them to T+, please find below required 75 ohm parts (2 dual bnc and 1 load resistors) in additional to 3 bnc clock cables that I found sounding  better that your usd1-2 cheap ones:

https://sg.rs-online.com/web/p/coaxial-adapters/1120830/

https://sg.rs-online.com/web/p/rf-terminators/7009316/

Cheers.

Richard

PS: dual T adaptor not preferred due to limit in between space  behind equipment


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 11, 2020)

Just a quick interim report:

Context:  Gaia connected to Terminator Plus via i2s via both HDMI and Ethernet (RJ45), with the clock out feature of the Terminator Plus engaged.  Speaker setup used for the evaluation.

Ethernet: Alternating between the Sablon 2020 Panatela Ethernet and prior model Sablon Panatela Ethernet.
HDMI: Tubulus Argentus

Both the ethernet and HDMI cables are attached, so I can quickly switch between ethernet input and HDMI input with the click of the input button on the Terminator Plus while the song is playing, allowing for easy A/B testing.

Song:  I am listening to all my usual demo tracks but in particular this evening I am using "In Strange Company He Spoke Softly" by MATstudio.  This is a great song for demo purposes as it is fairly sparse music with incredible amounts of hyper detail and sound staging elements.  It makes it easy to focus on individual sonic aspects.  I like this music, it may not be your cup of tea, but nonetheless, the song is a great evaluation tool.

When I am using HDMI, it is i2s via LVDS, and when ethernet is used it is i2s via LVCMOS.  I understand LVDS is viewed by some as a technically "on paper" better solution.

HDMI:  As compared to ethernet connections, the sound is relatively more dense, a bit more organic- it emphasizes tone and timbre.  There is more presence on vocal tracks.  It imposes a layer of "beautification" and is very pleasing.

RJ45 Ethernet:  As compared to the HDMI connection, the ethernet connection has more clarity and superior precision with instrumental layering, and more crispy and speedy transients.  The very subtle musical details are more apparent.  Ethernet here is comparatively less "organic" sounding.  It is more raw sounding, without the "beautification" of the HDMI connection. I think I am finding I prefer this connection method, but could very easily live with and be happy with HDMI. If I listened to different types of music (acoustic, jazz, classical etc(., I would probably prefer HDMI.  I am tempted to use both.

The comments above are just relative to each other.  So for example, the HDMI is very transparent and clear, just less so than the Ethernet, and Ethernet is also organic sounding, just less so than HDMI.

The sonic differences above are most certainly a result of multiple factors, namely, the cables used, the Gaia and Terminator Plus themselves, and probably LVDS vs. LVCMOS.

The differences are not at all subtle and the very easy and quick A/B with just the push of the button allowed the differences to really jump out.  I could see people _strongly_ preferring one over the other based upon personal preferences, music and equipment. I was very surprised the differences were so noticeable.

Having had this experience, I am now thinking that having multiple output options of the Gaia is a terrific thing particularly if someone has a DAC with lots of connection options, as each connection type differs in sound.

P.S. Forgot to mention- I am far enough into my evaluation process to definitively state that Gaia+Terminator Plus is unquestionably superior to usb straight in to Terminator Plus (no Gaia).


----------



## richardloh (Aug 11, 2020)

BlakeT said:


> Just a quick interim report:
> 
> Context:  Gaia connected to Terminator Plus via i2s via both HDMI and Ethernet (RJ45), with the clock out feature of the Terminator Plus engaged.  Speaker setup used for the evaluation.
> 
> ...



Hi Blake,

Nice share and writeup 👍🙏

On the hdmi i2s vs rj45 i2s connection, I plays from my Avatar which sounds just as good to via rj45 i2s with cheap china ofc rj45 cable vs >10x more costly Argentus via hdmi i2s but the Avator's rj45 i2s is lvds and yes, individual preference applies.

I can relate but did not describe as well as you had done so on the somehow smoothen out sound of hdmi i2s via the Argentus even in my comparison to cheap china ofc rj45 i2s ... guess only way if someone with also Argentus rj45 i2s cable to compare since Sablon rj45 i2s used by you and lvcmos as I do not plan to spend more in addition to the Argentus hdmi i2s cable ordered.

On usb via gaia to T+ or directly to T+, I find that my allo usb bridge signature (and aes/ebu from my Bel Canto fm tuner) also obviously improved in sound quality but not so for the Antipodes EX. What is your usb source(s) being used ??

My thinking is that beyond a certain level of usb source (and maybe aes/ebu etc.), having gaia in the chain may not yield any improvement or there is somehow mismatch of Antipodes usb source to this chain.

Just an added note, Antipodes advises against any further usb processing and claims that more is less for their products and I do like that they even advise against assuming the benefits of commonly preferred upsampling with specific description per attachment.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 11, 2020)

One quick follow up here- If there are any Gaia/Terminator Plus users reading this thread, please note that if you want to use Ethernet to connect Gaia to TPlus, the RJ45 ethernet cable must be very short (Alvin says 30 cm or less), or you may encounter noise/EMI problems, which reveal as static like noise similar to dirty vinyl records when music is not playing (when music is playing the noise completely disappears).  That happened to me using a 1-meter ethernet cable.

The above is due to LVCMOS vs LVDS. Ethernet for connecting Gaia to TPlus is LVCMOS, so short cables must be used to avoid noise problems.

HDMI connecting Gaia to TPlus is LVDS and does not have any noise problems with longer cable lengths.


----------



## jazzbug

richardloh said:


> Hi Blake,
> 
> Nice share and writeup 👍🙏
> 
> ...


Hi Blake, Hi Richard,
Thanks for the info, it seems both of you use Tubulus Argentus i2S cable. It might be off the topic, I'm debating from Tubulus Argentus, VAL or Phasure HDMI cable. 
I read some review comparison between Tubulus vs VAL, seems Tubulus is more full body with low end but lack of air.
If you would share your impression of Tubulus please? 
Thx
Jazz


----------



## richardloh (Aug 11, 2020)

jazzbug said:


> Hi Blake, Hi Richard,
> Thanks for the info, it seems both of you use Tubulus Argentus i2S cable. It might be off the topic, I'm debating from Tubulus Argentus, VAL or Phasure HDMI cable.
> I read some review comparison between Tubulus vs VAL, seems Tubulus is more full body with low end but lack of air.
> If you would share your impression of Tubulus please?
> ...



Hi Jazz,

Unfortunately I do not have VAL and Phasure to compare but I had the cheaply Pangea and the then loaned Argentus to find out that the latter is more detailed and organic sounding in MY system .. at almost x10 the $ though and just picked it up from the same friend last nite who loaned his as he had 10% discount as returning customer.

I do not find it lacking in air nor with especially more prominent low end but I am a firmed believer that cablings are highly system dependent and it will be hard to know how it will sound in your system until you have it. Nevertheless, I do prefer silver or better silver-gold cables if done well but they are usually more expensive.

Sorry for primarily useless share but guess it is not too crazily priced at sgd708 after 10% discount with shipping and without local 7% gst but is max of what I would want to pay for cabling ... the improvement from pangea is nowhere near from recent standard to T+ nor adding gaia with the exception of Antipodes EX which I connect directly to the T+.

Btw, I am using cheaply china made ofc rj45 is2 cables from the Avatar to T+ which sounded just as good as the Argentus hdmi i2s cable and have no urge to get the Argentus rj45 i2s cable especially since least play time of the Avatar. I am also also using equally cheap but well spec'ed pro audio canare d5.5uhdc01e bnc clock cables but invested much more in analog cables of vintage top-of-the line nordost fil interconnects and very expensive cardas clear speaker cables with its jumpers to my salon 2 speakers

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## jazzbug

richardloh said:


> Hi Jazz,
> 
> Unfortunately I do not have VAL and Phasure to compare but I had the cheaply Pangea and the then loaned Argentus to find out that the latter is more detailed and organic sounding in MY system .. at almost x10 the $ though and just picked it up from the same friend last nite who loaned his as he had 10% discount as returning customer.
> 
> ...


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 12, 2020)

Edited:

Hi @jazzbug

I have not heard the Phasure or VAL so unfortunately I wouldn't be able to compare.  What is the "VAL" cable?  Did you mean RAL (Revelation Audio Labs)?

The other factor is, the Tubulus Argentus is the only high quality HDMI I have ever owned (I bought an Audioquest HDMI on Ebay once, which turned out to be a fake).

I definitely agree the Argentus is very full-bodied.  In terms of air, the Sablon ethernet had more.  To be clear though, the high frequencies are present on Argentus- they are not rolled off.  Sometimes air means different things to different people so I didn't want this construed as rolled off.  I view air in terms of spaciousness/sound stage/clarity.  The very subtle micro details are more audible with Sablon ethernet.  Of course, that doesn't help you very much.  I may try a few more HDMI cables (perhaps Crystal Cable, Purist Audio Design and possibly RAL- I have a custom RAL Passage umbilical DC cable that the owner made for me that is very good).


----------



## Roasty

BlakeT said:


> Edited:
> 
> Hi @jazzbug
> 
> ...



Is the tubulus cable really as stiff as previously mentioned? Could it do a tight bend to connect two components stacked on each other? 

I'm trying to look for a suitable hdmi i2s cable to compare with the phasure hdmi^2.


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 12, 2020)

Roasty said:


> Is the tubulus cable really as stiff as previously mentioned? Could it do a tight bend to connect two components stacked on each other?
> 
> I'm trying to look for a suitable hdmi i2s cable to compare with the phasure hdmi^2.



The Argentus is beefy, but it can do a bend no problem.  Mine is doing a "U".  Prior to purchasing the cable I asked the manufacturer whether it was safe to bend the cable and they said it is not a problem.  The cable is quite flexible.


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 12, 2020)

I just ordered a Revelation Audio Labs HDMI to see how it compares to the Tubulus Argentus.  Hopefully I won't have any delivery delay issues, but I am planning on it taking a while to arrive.


----------



## Roasty

BlakeT said:


> The Argentus is beefy, but it can do a bend no problem.  Mine is doing a "U".  Prior to purchasing the cable I asked the manufacturer whether it was safe to bend the cable and they said it is not a problem.  The cable is quite flexible.



That's good to hear. Thanks man. Will await your RAL cable impressions.


----------



## jazzbug

BlakeT said:


> I just ordered a Revelation Audio Labs HDMI to see how it compares to the Tubulus Argentus.  Hopefully I won't have any delivery delay issues, but I am planning on it taking a while to arrive.


Yes Blake, its RAL.
Thanks for the info and good to learn from your experience. 
I'm lucky to hold on the purchase now, can't wait for your comparison


----------



## richardloh (Aug 12, 2020)

Roasty said:


> Is the tubulus cable really as stiff as previously mentioned? Could it do a tight bend to connect two components stacked on each other?
> 
> I'm trying to look for a suitable hdmi i2s cable to compare with the phasure hdmi^2.




Hi Jazz,

It is stiff as compared to most and a huge hdmi connector is used.

Mine is 0.75m and the equipment are just single 10" rack space in between but I wun get 0.5m one.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## jazzbug

richardloh said:


> Hi Jazz,
> 
> It is stiff as compared to most and a huge hdmi connector is used.
> 
> ...


Your Tubulus looks solid & pretty in reallife


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 13, 2020)

I am listening to the Tubulus Argentus right now, and I can say in no way do I get the impression that the "air" aspect is lacking in any way.  Just the opposite- it has lots of air, together with lots of body and detail and a large sound stage.  This is a terrific cable!


----------



## AlexBPM

Has anyone tried the Mapleshade Vivilink 3 as an i2s solution?  A friend of mine conducted a shootout between a wireworld starlight series cable, the mapleshade and a few others.  With his Rockna Wavedream and Revel Salon2 tube setup, he strongly disliked the wireworld.  And absolutely loved the Vivilink 3.  He absolutely swears by the mapleshade and proclaims it a giant killer at its price point.  Would love to compare the Vivilink 3 to the Tubulus Argentus


----------



## johnzz4

AlexBPM said:


> Has anyone tried the Mapleshade Vivilink 3 as an i2s solution?  A friend of mine conducted a shootout between a wireworld starlight series cable, the mapleshade and a few others.  With his Rockna Wavedream and Revel Salon2 tube setup, he strongly disliked the wireworld.  And absolutely loved the Vivilink 3.  He absolutely swears by the mapleshade and proclaims it a giant killer at its price point.  Would love to compare the Vivilink 3 to the Tubulus Argentus


I’ve found the Wireworld takes a long time to settle in.  The Tubulus didn’t take nearly as long.  The Wireworld has a larger soundstage and sounds more detailed, where the Tubulus has a bit smaller soundstage (not small, just smaller) with more body and a more natural sound.  I ended up keeping both since it’s hard to say which is better... they each have their appeal.  I have the Kimber D60 clock cable now, and it’s an impressive upgrade from the Canare, Mogami, and Apogee Wade Eye that I had tried.  It’s taken almost a week for the D60 to shine, and I’m not sure if there are any more changes coming.


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 13, 2020)

@johnzz4

Do you normally run in NOS or OS Mode?

I have been running NOS for the entire time of my TPlus ownership but tonight I tried OS and I am finding OS and Argentus is a good combo and seem to compliment each other in that OS Mode seems to bring out more detail and air and more sound stage. 

By the same line of thinking I am wondering if your Wireworld which has relatively more detail by less body might combine better with NOS, as NOS seems to have more emphasis on tonal density and seems more full sounding?

I don't have any firm ideas yet as I just started experimenting with OS Mode about an hour ago.


----------



## Sage Encore

johnzz4 said:


> I’ve found the Wireworld takes a long time to settle in.  The Tubulus didn’t take nearly as long.  The Wireworld has a larger soundstage and sounds more detailed, where the Tubulus has a bit smaller soundstage (not small, just smaller) with more body and a more natural sound.  I ended up keeping both since it’s hard to say which is better... they each have their appeal.  I have the Kimber D60 clock cable now, and it’s an impressive upgrade from the Canare, Mogami, and Apogee Wade Eye that I had tried.  It’s taken almost a week for the D60 to shine, and I’m not sure if there are any more changes coming.


Hi John,
That’s what I’ve been preaching from day one, the BNC cables or any cables for that matter make a huge difference. Glad you are finally reaping the true rewards of an upgrade. I’m now looking at some purist design hdmi and BNC cables, but in all likelihood I will go with my tried and tested Tellurium or soTm BNC cables, as for the hdmi I’m waiting on Blake’s FR to see if it’s going to be RAL, Tubulus or Purist design. I’m told the crystal cable will not be a good fit for me.


----------



## Roasty

I've just placed an order for a 1.5m length Tubulus Argentus hdmi. Hope it is good. Will be comparing it with a phasure hdmi^2.


----------



## BlakeT

Roasty said:


> I've just placed an order for a 1.5m length Tubulus Argentus hdmi. Hope it is good. Will be comparing it with a phasure hdmi^2.



It will be great to have your input so we have another data point.  Together we can get this whole HDMI cable thing sorted out!


----------



## Roasty

BlakeT said:


> It will be great to have your input so we have another data point.  Together we can get this whole HDMI cable thing sorted out!



Yep agreed. It's always in the back of my mind wondering how another cable would perform in my system.. 

It'll be at least a month before I get to post my impressions/comparisons. The web dealer informs it'll be about 2 weeks before my cable is ready and gets shipped out, and I'll play it in my system for a while before jotting down my thoughts. 

My main irk with the i2s system is there are two form factors ie hdmi and ethernet style plugs. I am thinking of getting the Gaia, but I am running two dacs next to each other and both use the hdmi style ports (no problem with su-6 as it has two hdmi i2s ports). If I get the gaia I need to custom a hdmi/rj45 cable (I saw Pete from Triode Wire Labs has made one recently).


----------



## johnzz4

BlakeT said:


> @johnzz4
> 
> Do you normally run in NOS or OS Mode?
> 
> ...


Always OS mode since I primarily run a 44k sampling rate with Tidal, and I don’t like the thought of losing a few dB of treble response with NOS due to the filter curve.


----------



## Sage Encore

Roasty said:


> I've just placed an order for a 1.5m length Tubulus Argentus hdmi. Hope it is good. Will be comparing it with a phasure hdmi^2.


Hi Roasty,
Is 1.5m an absolute necessary? HDMI is best kept as short as possible and that goes for BNC too.


----------



## Roasty

Sage Encore said:


> Hi Roasty,
> Is 1.5m an absolute necessary? HDMI is best kept as short as possible and that goes for BNC too.



Yep unfortunately I need that length. 

For experimentation, I have two lengths of phasure hdmi^2 cables and I tried both of them to the same dac. One was 0.7m and one was 1.5m, and I couldn't hear any difference.


----------



## NoNameNPC

There is no point to buy they DDC for they Dac's because they all do reclock of all input signals. Not too smart sell DDC with input for external clocks and then do reclock of all input.


----------



## richardloh

Hi, 

Hurray ... 2 more of recording studio grade Canare d5.5uhdc01e bnc clock cables arrived from Japan at usd20 each for all 3 required ones to daisy chain avatar and gaia for the T+ 😃

https://www.soundhouse.co.jp/products/detail/item/239127/

Apogee wyde eye to be listed locally for sale and more than happy to ship it to oversea buyer here if interested at 30% off and added shipping $.

Cheers.

Richard


----------



## BlakeT

I am also going to grab another digital SPDIF cable, just to help me get a read on my Kimber D-60's, which I really, really like.  So far I've only compared the D-60 to a cheap-O amazon cable, which was obviously clobbered by the Kimber.


----------



## JayRocks92

Sage Encore said:


> That cable looks really good. Not crazy money too.


After lots of researching, I'm also planning to go with the Wireworld HDMI... Glad to see other find it "amazing"


----------



## Ranathum

Hello!
Would like to know, found digital bnc cables with 75ohms and 50ohms, which cable is used to connect gaia to tplus?


----------



## BlakeT

Ranathum said:


> Hello!
> Would like to know, found digital bnc cables with 75ohms and 50ohms, which cable is used to connect gaia to tplus?



75


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 31, 2020)

BlakeT said:


> I am also going to grab another digital SPDIF cable, just to help me get a read on my Kimber D-60's, which I really, really like.  So far I've only compared the D-60 to a cheap-O amazon cable, which was obviously clobbered by the Kimber.



An update:  I swapped in a Stealth Audio spdif for the Kimber D-60 spdif, and this confirmed to me that the quality of the clock cables matter. The Stealth cable was a definite upgrade to the Kimber- the increased transparency/clarity is amazing, but it should be as it is significantly more expensive. Having said this, I still highly recommend the Kimber D-60. 

To be clear, expensive cables are not required as the combo sounds very good with even cheap basic cables.  Things just improve as you move up the cable food chain.


----------



## BlakeT

The Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy CryoSilver Reference HDMI showed up today.  Let the burn-in begin.  I was planning to burn it in on my television for a couple of weeks, then install it in my audio system but it won't work.  Apparently it is audio only.  Just like my Tubulus Argentus HDMI.


----------



## Roasty

Lol coincidence, my tubulus argentus arrived yesterday too. Looks well made, and not as stiff as I thought it was. Have placed it in my system (phasure lush^2 out) and am running it in 24/7.


----------



## jazzbug (Sep 1, 2020)

BlakeT said:


> The Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy CryoSilver Reference HDMI showed up today.  Let the burn-in begin.  I was planning to burn it in on my television for a couple of weeks, then install it in my audio system but it won't work.  Apparently it is audio only.  Just like my Tubulus Argentus HDMI.


Looks nice, can't wait for your review of RAL vs Tubulus


----------



## jazzbug (Sep 1, 2020)

Roasty said:


> Lol coincidence, my tubulus argentus arrived yesterday too. Looks well made, and not as stiff as I thought it was. Have placed it in my system (phasure lush^2 out) and am running it in 24/7.


It's fest time, Phasure, RAL & TUbulus are all in my consideration. 
Can't wait for your review


----------



## Sage Encore

Pop corn ready. Let the burn in begin. Woooohoooo. Do you think nuking the cables will help Blake and Roasty? LOL. Have fun guys. Congrats.


----------



## JayRocks92

Ranathum said:


> Hello!
> Would like to know, found digital bnc cables with 75ohms and 50ohms, which cable is used to connect gaia to tplus?



Try Ghent Audio... I’ve bought dozens of various cables from him... can’t go wrong. If you don’t see exactly what you need, just send him a message. If wanting to stay Stateside, try Bluejeans cable.


----------



## JayRocks92

JayRocks92 said:


> Try Ghent Audio... I’ve bought dozens of various cables from him... can’t go wrong. If you don’t see exactly what you need, just send him a message. If wanting to stay Stateside, try Bluejeans cable.


Oh... connecting Gaia to Terminator, go with HDMI via I2S... look at WireWorld for a great value audiophile HDMI.


----------



## yyzSB

I was initially considering getting the TP+ and GAIA to join my Benchmark DAC3B. However, the review by Steve Guttenburg made me change my mind. I got the impression that the TP+ had a similar sound signature as the DAC3B. I am not saying the DAC3B is a better DAC than the TP+ all I am saying is that the difference in signature is not enough for me to have both DACs at the same time.  

My second choice in a DAC to compliment my DAC3B is the Audio Mirror Tubadour III. It is an R2R NOS DAC.  Some folks have sold their Terminator (not plus)  DACs for this unit as stated by reviewer Terry London on Audiogon. The Tubadour also has an I2S input  compatible with the PS Audio type.  This DAC will be much different sounding than my DAC3B so I want to give it a try. I need a way to get my bits from my computer to the Tubadour. For my DAC3B I use a Sonore microRendu. I could buy a opticalRendu for 1 or the DACs and have 2 Rendu's, everything solved.

My question is whether a Denafrips GAIA makes sense in my scenario. In this case, I could use the microRendu to connect to the GAIA by USB and then connect by I2S to the Tubadour and Coaxial to the DAC3B.

Has anyone added the GAIA to a non-Denafrips DAC? If so, was it a good move?

Anyone have any opinion on me getting a GAIA for my situation scenario?

Both DACs will be connected to a Benchmark HPA4 + Meze Empyrean  or Benchmark AHB2 + KEF LS50s (for now)


----------



## BlakeT (Sep 4, 2020)

yyzSB said:


> I was initially considering getting the TP+ and GAIA to join my Benchmark DAC3B. However, the review by Steve Guttenburg made me change my mind.



I enjoy Steve's videos and he is a good guy with a lot of experience.  What I have learned, is that Steve doesn't place transparency/detail/sound staging very high on his list of sonic priorities.  Take a look at Steve's (regular) Terminator review as well.  See a pattern?  Most everyone thought the new DSP board was better than the original board, in that it provided better transparency/detail/sound staging, while still sounding very organic and natural.  Not Steve, he liked the old board.

Again, no problem at all. We all have our preferences.  Me?  If it is on the recording, I want to hear it.  For many of us, that is what hifi is about.  Steve is more about what sounds subjectively pleasing to him.

I absolutely detest any gear that sounds bright, hard, fatiguing or sterile.  I will ditch that stuff in a heart beat.  Steve was somewhat vague but he seemed to imply the TPlus may be too much transparency for some listeners- i.e. possibly fatiguing.  He didn't use those words, but some may read that into his comments.  That isn't even remotely the case.

For Benchmark, I only heard an old model (DAC-1?), and I found it to be sterile and fatiguing, night and day different than Denafrips.  I am sure the newer Benchmark DAC's are far superior but I wouldn't know.

Finally, while I think the TPlus/Gaia combo is a world beater, we all have different preferences.  The hard part is finding your sonic nirvana as brick and mortar shops are rapidly becoming a thing of the past and not many manufacturers allow demos.  You do your homework, roll the dice and hope you made the right choice.  If not, flip it and move on, hopefully without losing too much money.


----------



## yyzSB

BlakeT said:


> I enjoy Steve's videos and he is a good guy with a lot of experience.  What I have learned, is that Steve doesn't place transparency/detail/sound staging very high on his list of sonic priorities.  Take a look at Steve's (regular) Terminator review as well.  See a pattern?  Most everyone thought the new DSP board was better than the original board, in that it provided better transparency/detail/sound staging, while still sounding very organic and natural.  Not Steve.
> 
> Again, no problem at all. We all have our preferences.  Me?  If it is on the recording, I want to hear it.  For many of us, that is what hifi is about.  Steve is more about what sounds subjectively pleasing to him.
> 
> ...



I used to own the DAC1 and it was only listenable with a warmish Balanced Audio VK-42SE preamp. All the other preamps I used were too bright so I know what you are saying about the DAC1. The DAC2 and DAC3 are so much more smoother than the DAC1. If something is on a recording you will hear it with the DAC2 and DAC3. It can be fatiguing with bad recordings but the majority of my listening is with decent recordings so I have a very good time with the DAC3B. Steve is describing a sound of the TP+ that seems like what I hear with the DAC3B. I do not need 2 of the same sound signature. In fact my current system is a transparency champion. The Benchmark DAC3B + HPA4 + AHB2 + Benchmark StarQuad XLR's + Benchmark speaker cable. I am looking to add a bit of flavor to this mix with a  second DAC that sounds different.

I was about to press the buy button on Alvin's web store to buy the GAIA but I will hold out a little longer to see what others have to say about the GAIA and non-Denafrips DACs.


----------



## BlakeT (Sep 4, 2020)

yyzSB said:


> In fact my current system is a transparency champion. The Benchmark DAC3B + HPA4 + AHB2 + Benchmark StarQuad XLR's + Benchmark speaker cable. I am looking to add a bit of flavor to this mix with a  second DAC that sounds different.rs have to say about the GAIA and non-Denafrips DACs.



Gotcha, that makes sense and is helpful background info.

In your case where you are looking to add some flavor to your already very transparent system, IME, Gaia will not provide that. I have used my Gaia with my Chord Qutest and it _really _elevated the performance of the Qutest but the improvements were to transparency and holography. Gaia is a transparency and holography supercharger.   It won't introduce things like warmth or more tonal emphasis.

Now, adding a Denafrips DAC will get you the best of both worlds- tone and detail (and playing around with NOS vs OS with a simple button push, or trying out DSD/PCM allows further easy tuning).  That is why I am so happy with my purchase.


----------



## yyzSB (Sep 4, 2020)

BlakeT said:


> Gotcha, that makes sense and is helpful background info.
> 
> In your case where you are looking to add some flavor to your already very transparent system, IME, Gaia will not provide that. I have used my Gaia with my Chord Qutest and it _really _elevated the performance of the Qutest but the improvements were to transparency and holography. Gaia is a transparency and holography supercharger.   It won't introduce things like warmth or more tonal emphasis.
> 
> Now, adding a Denafrips DAC will get you the best of both worlds- tone and detail (and playing around with NOS vs OS with a simple button push, or trying out DSD/PCM allows further easy tuning).  That is why I am so happy with my purchase.



I am not looking to the GAIA for warmth or tonal emphasis. The Tubadour is a tube based DAC and that unit will provide the meat to the bones. Your comment on the GAIA being a transparency and holography supercharger is interesting since that would help both the DAC3B and Tubadour. Though I am not so sure about the DA3B since it is already very good at jitter rejection. The same improvements on the Qutest are what I am looking for on the 2 DACs I am considering. The GAIA would also be super convenient to get the bits from my ROON server (via the single microRendu) to the DACs by I2S and Coaxial.


----------



## Articnoise

I don’t believe it’s ever can be too transparent and holography. IME it’s always other _sonic aspects_ that doesn't work in these systems, things that make revealing gear match badly together with some other gear.


----------



## koso (Sep 17, 2020)

Gaia has arrived today!
Gaia has replaced my previous (pretty good for the money) Matrix Audio X-Spdif 2. Mainly use as USB to AES/EBU conversion from Aurender N100H to Simaudio Moon 380D DSD dac.
Just first impression (right out of the box, after just one hour of listening):
- impressive compared to X-Spfif 2
- sound is more airy, more analog like
- deeper, more holographic soundstage
- more realistic voices

Will update my findings after couple of days...


----------



## bstanwick

I have been reading about the GAIA with great interest.  Can anyone who has it tell us how much they paid in US dollars, including any import fees or value added tax?

BTW:  I emailed Alvin at VinshineAudio about the GAIA I2S output and found out that it is not comaptible with PS Audio DACs.  The Termantor DAC has an I2S setup configuration to make it compatible with PS Audio gear, but so far no similar capability on the GAIA.  Alvin said that he would put this feature on the request list.


----------



## koso

GAIA I2S pinout would by nice indeed, as well as dual AES/EBU support. Both are pure software related so could be programmed via FPGA I quess. Hope software update will add some of those in the future.


----------



## Articnoise (Sep 24, 2020)

bstanwick said:


> I have been reading about the GAIA with great interest.  Can anyone who has it tell us how much they paid in US dollars, including any import fees or value added tax?
> 
> BTW:  I emailed Alvin at VinshineAudio about the GAIA I2S output and found out that it is not comaptible with PS Audio DACs.  The Termantor DAC has an I2S setup configuration to make it compatible with PS Audio gear, but so far no similar capability on the GAIA.  Alvin said that he would put this feature on the request list.



I don’t know, but it sounds strange. Let’s look at the facts:

The Terminator has an I2S setup configuration that is compatible with PS Audio gear.

Gaia is compatible with Terminator through I2S.

Gaia I2S should consequently be compatible with PS Audio DACs.


----------



## bstanwick

I watched a video on the Denafrips website that shows how to go to a setup mode on the Terminator DAC and change the pinout for the I2S input.  It uses three of the LEDs (1X, 2X, 4X) to set a combination that goes from all Off (000 default) to All on (111).  To be compatible with a PS Audio disc transposrt it needs to be set to 100 instead of the 000 default.  What they are doing is changing the polarity on three pairs of wires on the I2S connector.  There is a chart in the Terminator manual that shows the polarity that will be set on the three pair of wires based on which of the three LEDs are On/Off.

This is a great idea, as there is no industry standard for how the standard HDMI cable wires are used to carry the signals.  With what they are doing on the Terminator DAC is allowing the user to configure the I2S pinout to match whatever gear they want to connect to it.


----------



## Roasty

BlakeT said:


> The Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy CryoSilver Reference HDMI showed up today.  Let the burn-in begin.  I was planning to burn it in on my television for a couple of weeks, then install it in my audio system but it won't work.  Apparently it is audio only.  Just like my Tubulus Argentus HDMI.



Just following up on this as I'm really curious.. How is the RAL? Any revelations..?


----------



## BlakeT (Sep 26, 2020)

Roasty said:


> Just following up on this as I'm really curious.. How is the RAL? Any revelations..?



Having an issue with my Gaia so the experiment is on hold until it is fixed.  Alvin is helping me get it sorted out though.


----------



## Articnoise

BlakeT said:


> Having an issue with my Gaia so the experiment is on hold until it is fixed.  Alvin is helping me get it sorted out though.



What kind of problem?


----------



## BlakeT (Sep 28, 2020)

Articnoise said:


> What kind of problem?



The Gaia isn't powering on.  Alvin saw my post in the forum and reached out to me before I even contacted him about the problem (now that is great customer service).  I am shipping it back to him for inspection, all covered under warranty.

In the meantime, I just received notice that my Iris for my other system has now shipped.  Look forward to it.


----------



## Articnoise

BlakeT said:


> The Gaia isn't powering on.  Alvin saw my post in the forum and reached out to me before I even contacted him about the problem (now that is great customer service).  I am shipping it back to him for inspection, all covered under warranty.
> 
> In the meantime, I just received notice that my Iris for my other system has now shipped.  Look forward to it.



So it works for over a month and then suddenly dies completely. That sounds worrying.

I hope things work out!


----------



## BlakeT (Sep 28, 2020)

Articnoise said:


> So it works for over a month and then suddenly dies completely. That sounds worrying.
> 
> I hope things work out!



Alvin is already shipping me a replacement Gaia so things worked out perfectly.

I have experienced problems with some other gear I have owned over the years as well (Revel, Aesthetix, Uptone, LH Labs).  This can happen to any brand from any country- no manufacturer is immune.  This is just part of our hobby and fluke things will happen from time to time. The important part is, if something goes wrong, will the manufacturer stand behind their product and provide support?  That is where the rubber meets the road.

Fortunately for me, Denafrips, Revel, Aesthetix and Uptone all stood behind their product and provided great support and the problems were quickly resolved. 

One brand did not- LH Labs, but that is a story for a different day.


----------



## koso

GAIA REVIEW UPDATE:

I’ve promised that I will report my findings after Gaia settles a little bit in my system. 
I am only at one third of burn in time period (roughly 300 hours is recommended by Denafrips), but I just can’t resist to share that sound quality of GAIA is still improving. As I wrote before, initial impression was very good, but just after a week of continual using I am really impressed.

It is almost unbelievable how big improvement can this DDC bring to already decent digital setup (Aurender N100H streamer + Simaudio Moon 380D dsd DAC). What I wrote before is still truth, but somehow multiplied and even more refined. Sound is even more relaxed, soundstage and space around instruments has even more natural feel. The effect of “disappearance” of speakers is even closer to ideal (...to achieve this in my listening space, smaller square shape room, is very challenging). EVERYTHING is more realistic! Voices and acoustic instruments are just THERE.
Great job Denafrips!!


----------



## Roasty

has anyone tried the Gaia with Holo/Rockna dacs? spoke to Alvin and he said there is a chance the Gaia may not work with these two dacs using the i2s interface.


----------



## johnzz4

Roasty said:


> has anyone tried the Gaia with Holo/Rockna dacs? spoke to Alvin and he said there is a chance the Gaia may not work with these two dacs using the i2s interface.


Perhaps ask the manufacturers for their i2s pinout and compare it to the pinout in the Gaia manual.  Unfortunately, the Gaia pinout isn’t user selectable like it is on the Terminator input.  I would check with Alvin, but I think reversed polarities for the same signal type on the pinout would still work, but not the wrong signal type altogether.  Good luck!


----------



## jazzbug

BlakeT said:


> The Revelation Audio Labs Prophecy CryoSilver Reference HDMI showed up today.  Let the burn-in begin.  I was planning to burn it in on my television for a couple of weeks, then install it in my audio system but it won't work.  Apparently it is audio only.  Just like my Tubulus Argentus HDMI.


Hope you enjoy the new toy, any impression to share?


----------



## jazzbug

Roasty said:


> Lol coincidence, my tubulus argentus arrived yesterday too. Looks well made, and not as stiff as I thought it was. Have placed it in my system (phasure lush^2 out) and am running it in 24/7.


Hope you enjoy the new toy, any impression to share?


----------



## Roasty

jazzbug said:


> Hope you enjoy the new toy, any impression to share?



I decided to keep it in the system. I preferred the highs and less forward presentation of the tubulus i2s cable. Phasure has better clarity and transparency though. I'm actually waiting on BlakeT's RAL impressions too!


----------



## jazzbug

Roasty said:


> I decided to keep it in the system. I preferred the highs and less forward presentation of the tubulus i2s cable. Phasure has better clarity and transparency though. I'm actually waiting on BlakeT's RAL impressions too!


Thanks mate for that, I totally understand the 'less forward presentation', esp with some audiophile vocal recordings.
Now can't wait for RAL impression


----------



## BlakeT

Just a quick update..  my RAL had a manufacturing defect and RAL ageed to replace it.  I am waiting for my replacement to arrive.


----------



## Roasty

jazzbug said:


> Thanks mate for that, I totally understand the 'less forward presentation', esp with some audiophile vocal recordings.
> Now can't wait for RAL impression



i think there are only a few of these boutique i2s cable manufacturers out there?

Phasure
RAL
Tubulus
Pink Faun

other i2s options are the usual hdmi cables from audioquest, wireworld etc or even the generic hdmi cables u can get anywhere. 
now that @BlakeT will be getting a replacement RAL (and can compare it to Tubulus), and since i prefer the Tubulus over the Phasure, and assuming we all have exactly the same ears and listening tastes (LOL), the next logical step is you should get the Tubulus and Pink Faun and let us know which you prefer. then we can have a ranking of the four listed above!


----------



## BlakeT

Roasty said:


> i think there are only a few of these boutique i2s cable manufacturers out there?
> 
> Phasure
> RAL
> ...




Great plan, then we will have them all covered!


----------



## Roasty

Actually, sorry. He should get the Pink Faun and RAL. Then we will get a better overall answer!


----------



## jazzbug

Some google search got me to below online reviews with more I talked to forumners:

"The RAL looks distinctively handmade (i.e. not finished like a high end cable). It is extremely detailed - moreso than even my AES cable from AudioSens. Great upper mids and up. Lots of air. Huge soundstage and great imaging. Clean clean clean sounding cable. However - it's light on the bottom end, and not the most dense/full sound. More.of an introspective/cinematic listen than a toe tapping.
The Tubulus is the opposite. Well built. Not as detailed as my AES cable (3rd place) but great full sounding lower mid range and bass is extremely clean and powerful. Upper mids and highs lack detail and sheen compared to the other 2. Very little air. This cable is still breaking in but generally you can tell the overall sound of the cable early.
Long story short - 2 different cables. If I could combine them both they'd be perfect but as things stand I'm not 100% satisfied with either however the detail on the RAL is addicting."

"I can recommend both RAL and Tubulus. See my post above. RAL for more detail, Tubulus for more bottom end and fullness."

"If I had to pick, the RAL is the winner. The lack of reverb/air/trails around instruments on the Tubulus was a deal breaker for me. I can live with quieter, albeit ultra clean bass, on the RAL in exchange for top notch detail. 
Unless your system is already too lean/quick and needs some body, I think the RAL is the best choice."


----------



## jazzbug

Another HongKong forum about Phasure and Pink Faun with google translate help:

User reckons Phasure "most truthful sounding", better than WWP 7 and AIM silver (1st gen).

Then user ordered Pink Faun, initially sounds quieter, darker background, denser sound than Phasure.


----------



## cglin222

So is the Iris better than the SU-6 in sound ? Is deciding between the two.. read somewhere on the forum that some say DI20 is better than SU6 and that Iris is equal and better than DI20?


----------



## Roasty

cglin222 said:


> So is the Iris better than the SU-6 in sound ? Is deciding between the two.. read somewhere on the forum that some say DI20 is better than SU6 and that Iris is equal and better than DI20?



Wish I could try the denafrips ddc but at the moment it's not compatible with my dac. What dac are u using?


----------



## cglin222

Roasty said:


> Wish I could try the denafrips ddc but at the moment it's not compatible with my dac. What dac are u using?



I have ares2 and d90 not sure if the iris i2s works with d90?
Alvin told me he prefer coax to ares2 tho..
Forgot to ask him if i2s works with d90


----------



## jazzbug (Oct 27, 2020)

cglin222 said:


> So is the Iris better than the SU-6 in sound ? Is deciding between the two.. read somewhere on the forum that some say DI20 is better than SU6 and that Iris is equal and better than DI20?


Actually my DI20HE is upgraded from Matrix, not on same level of course. Recent multiple FPGA FW provides options of sound, really happy with my PS DAC S.
(I stumbled here for the I2s cable talk)
I heard one of my freind just got Gaia.


----------



## Roasty (Dec 11, 2020)

Alvin @ Vinshine has kindly loaned me the Denafrips Gaia for home demo.

There was some initial concern due to i2s port pinout configuration, but can confirm, the Gaia is able to work with the Rockna Wavelight Dac using the i2s connection.

Pics playing both pcm and DSD via i2s.




I will be comparing with my own su-6 + farad lps. Size difference of the su-6 vs gaia is considerable. Gaia is indeed a hefty and solid piece of work. The su-6 is the small black box behind the Gaia.




Had some trouble achieving a signal lock but I have come up with a cable sequence that has given me consistent results.

When switching DDCs:
Stop music
Insert USB into gaia
Insert i2s into gaia
Play music

If I put the i2s in first, I often do not get a signal lock. Also, I can almost never get a lock with my dac if a coaxial spdif cable is plugged into the gaia the same time as the i2s. (perhaps this maybe a dac issue).

O̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶p̶e̶c̶u̶l̶i̶a̶r̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶i̶s̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶p̶c̶m̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶a̶i̶a̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶r̶r̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶s̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶D̶S̶D̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶G̶a̶i̶a̶ ̶D̶S̶D̶ ̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶r̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶e̶g̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶d̶s̶d̶2̶5̶6̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶1̶7̶2̶.̶6̶k̶h̶z̶.̶

So far I must say the differences between gaia and su-6 are quite small. I will report back in again after more listening.

*edit

I misread the led lights.
172.6khz on the gaia corresponds to dsd256. So the lights are correct.


----------



## BlakeT

@Roasty that is a pretty slick way of hiding the cables for a more aesthetically pleasing rack of gear.  Are those pieces of painted cardboard or wood or something else?


----------



## Roasty

BlakeT said:


> @Roasty that is a pretty slick way of hiding the cables for a more aesthetically pleasing rack of gear.  Are those pieces of painted cardboard or wood or something else?



Hey thanks man. 
Just large pieces of matte black plastic corrugated boards which were cut out to size and to accommodate the shapes of the components. They're cheap too about USD8 for three boards of 50x75cm. Yea I don't like looking at the wires behind, especially as it's in direct sight from where I sit on the couch. Also doubles to reduce dust getting into the cabinet.


----------



## Benny-x

Roasty said:


> i think there are only a few of these boutique i2s cable manufacturers out there?
> 
> Phasure
> RAL
> ...


Don't forget the Godfather, the PS Audio PerfectWave 12 i2S HDMI cable. Solid core silver conductors and made especially for the digital audio over i2S format they pioneered in bringing outside the CD player to digital transports. 

I also have my eyes on the other specialty cables you mentioned and I can't honestly say anything about how "audio purist" the PS Audio cable really is, but it has been a main stay across my i2S sources for 5-6 years now and I've tried quite a few cables and sources.


----------



## driftingbunnies

@Roasty How did the Gaia compare to the SU-6 in your system?


----------



## Roasty

driftingbunnies said:


> @Roasty How did the Gaia compare to the SU-6 in your system?



I had the loaner for a couple of weeks and just recently returned it to Alvin at Vinshine. Decided not to order the Gaia. Couldn't justify adding another box or replacing the su-6; the differences are there, but they are indeed very small. 

I felt the gaia had better detail retrieval and a slightly stronger central image. Soundstage is also a little wider, but not deeper. SU-6 is comparatively a little warmer/darker and the vocals are not as glossy/glistening. SU-6 has a bit more weight to the mids and bass. 

Only listing out the differences I could make out. Super subtle and really had to listen hard and scrutinise the music. I was hoping for more of a night/day difference, but I'm guessing the Gaia may be underperforming; it probably shines the most with clock inputs from the terminator plus (?). 

Also I think in my system, the su-6 works well with the Rockna dac, smoothening out the dac presentation.


----------



## driftingbunnies

Ah, I guess the SU-6 held it's own against the Gaia in a non-denafrips setting. I'm hoping that a denafrips DDC will help in my non-DDC, non-Denafrips system (ygg a2). I've just been using USB but would like to see if a DDC would help improve my setup in any way.


----------



## Roasty

driftingbunnies said:


> Ah, I guess the SU-6 held it's own against the Gaia in a non-denafrips setting. I'm hoping that a denafrips DDC will help in my non-DDC, non-Denafrips system (ygg a2). I've just been using USB but would like to see if a DDC would help improve my setup in any way.



Whichever ddc u end up choosing, the jump to an i2s connection will be a really nice one.


----------



## BlakeT

Roasty said:


> Whichever ddc u end up choosing, the jump to an i2s connection will be a really nice one.




Totally agree, I2S is the way to go for my sonic preferences as well.  Unfortunately, Yggy won't do I2S.


----------



## driftingbunnies

Yeah, I'll have to consider a dac with I2S in the future. For now, a DDC is probably the best upgrade without dropping an additional $2k.


----------



## alvin1118

I am a visual storyteller


----------



## driftingbunnies

Thanks for the picture! I've been using mine for the past week or so since I got it. It's been nice. I do feel like I need to get a dac that can receive i2s to get the most out of it. It's currently making a subtle difference for my Ygg A2. Nothing changes in tonality but the timing and naturalness of the music is slightly better.


----------



## sajunky

Strange combination of input filters, Meanwell 5V SMPS and a torroidal transformer. Which one is isolated power supply?


----------



## sajunky (Feb 2, 2021)

driftingbunnies said:


> Thanks for the picture! I've been using mine for the past week or so since I got it. It's been nice. I do feel like I need to get a dac that can receive i2s to get the most out of it. It's currently making a subtle difference for my Ygg A2. Nothing changes in tonality but the timing and naturalness of the music is slightly better.


External clock would help definitely (if only Yggy support it). Alternative brands supporting external clock are expensive. It is why looking for a DAC supporting I2S make a sense. There are much cheaper than Yggy with a pricing starting from $850 Audio GD (R-1), then Musicians (Pegasus), Denafrips (Pontus) in order of increasing cost. All of them support NOS mode, you may like it.


----------



## driftingbunnies

sajunky said:


> External clock would help definitely (if only Yggy support it). Alternative brands supporting external clock are expensive. It is why looking for a DAC supporting I2S make a sense. There are much cheaper than Yggy with a pricing starting from $850 Audio GD (R-1), then Musicians (Pegasus), Denafrips (Pontus) in order of increasing cost. All of them support NOS mode, you may like it.



I'd be looking to upgrade, not stay at the same level or downgrade.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 3, 2021)

driftingbunnies said:


> I'd be looking to upgrade, not stay at the same level or downgrade.


With entry level Ares it may be a sidegrade, but Ares do not support I2S anyway, so there is no point. All others will give an upgrade to Yggy. I am talking about pairing with DI-20HE and you have a number of more expensive models to chose from: Denafrips Pontus, Venus and Terminator(s), Audio GD R-1, R-8 and R-7. You can even make plans to avoid spending extra $1k for DI-20HE by chosing HE versions of R-8/R-7, but even a flagship model R-7HE 2021 Edition will benefit from DI-20HE.

You can try just a DAC of your choice first, adding DI-20HE later. Yggy do not offer such opportunity. I am talking about planning when building blocks. Planning is neccesary to not spend a fortune for a high-end system.


----------



## driftingbunnies

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm already using a denafrips DDC and am considering a higher end i2s dac in the future. The denafrips offerings and possibly the holo may seem like a good choice.


----------



## sajunky

driftingbunnies said:


> Thanks for your suggestions. I'm already using a denafrips DDC and am considering a higher end i2s dac in the future. The denafrips offerings and possibly the holo may seem like a good choice.


How do you connect it to Yggy? It doesn't  make any sense. S/PDIF type of connection is already galvanically isolated and always require reclocking, no matter it is coming through DDC or directly from a source. Yggy do this job well, but a game changer (a real high-end solution) would be external clock input on Yggy.  As there is none, A2 version which improve quality of USB can give better results when using USB connection directly (bypassing DDC completely). And a Denafrips DDC solutions do not have reputation of Audio GD DI-20HE.


----------



## Zachik

sajunky said:


> Denafrips DDC solutions do not have reputation of Audio GD DI-20HE.


Were there any good A/B comparisons between Denafrips and Audio-GD? 
Audio-GD seems to have a much larger and loyal following, but that does not necessarily mean it is better...


----------



## driftingbunnies

Zachik said:


> Were there any good A/B comparisons between Denafrips and Audio-GD?
> Audio-GD seems to have a much larger and loyal following, but that does not necessarily mean it is better...



I'd take what is said with a grain of salt. I believe sajunky really enjoys his Audio-gd stuff which is totally fine. I haven't listened to one in a while but I'm sure there are reasons people enjoy their stuff. Since this is a Denafrips DDC thread, I would hope we would stick to Denafrips DDC talk rather than DI-20HE talk unless someone was able to compare the two. I have no reason to believe that the DI-20HE is miles ahead of the denafrips offerings or vice versa.


----------



## Zachik

Zachik said:


> Were there any good A/B comparisons between Denafrips and Audio-GD?
> Audio-GD seems to have a much larger and loyal following, but that does not necessarily mean it is better...





driftingbunnies said:


> I'd take what is said with a grain of salt. I believe sajunky really enjoys his Audio-gd stuff which is totally fine. I haven't listened to one in a while but I'm sure there are reasons people enjoy their stuff. Since this is a Denafrips DDC thread, I would hope we would stick to Denafrips DDC talk rather than DI-20HE talk unless someone was able to compare the two. I have no reason to believe that the DI-20HE is miles ahead of the denafrips offerings or vice versa.


I am NOT trying to derail the thread!  Seriously considering an upgrade for my DDC - the 2 main contenders are Denafrips (likely Iris) and the DI-20HE.
I am both surprised and disappointed there are no numerous people comparing the 2 options. I agree that probably difference won't be night and day, but spending $1,000 or so - I would rather get the "better" one, even if only by a nose


----------



## sajunky (Feb 3, 2021)

Zachik said:


> I am NOT trying to derail the thread!  Seriously considering an upgrade for my DDC - the 2 main contenders are Denafrips (likely Iris) and the DI-20HE.


Even a basic DI-20 (non-HE) stands up against Denafrips implementation. I will try to explain it below. For now let me put a few words in general why we use DDC.

TL;DR,
A main problem with USB connection is spreading ground loops which PC is a great source. USB purifiers do not work in general, as USB standard require DC level handshaking. It makes galvanic isolation very difficult to implement, A solution is to place galvanic isolation after converting it to I2S, leaving USB receiver chip on the dirty side. Well, but what about clock? This is a big question!

There are three modes of USB isochronous transfers (all audio transfers): synchronous, adaptive and asynchronous. All modern USB implementation support the last one for the best quality. There are two methods of a clock synchronisation in this mode: push and event (asynchronous with explicit end point - in USB terminology).

- Push mode means that a host decide a moment when to send a next frame, it means a speed of the stream is determined by a sender. It has an inherent jitter and an average speed is not matching an internal clock speed. A difference in a speed will cause under or over flowing FIFO buffers. There are number of methods of synchronising clock speed, PLL, reclocking or even adding/dropping zero samples in quiet passages. Each one has drawbacks.

- Event mode require receiving feedback frames from the sink (receiving side) for synchronising speed with USB controller clock which becomes a reference clock. Most of modern USB implementation support this mode. It allows to use a fixed frequency DAC clock and no PLL or reclocking is required, it is ideal for a low jitter.

Operating systems Windows and MAC OS prefer push mode, but event  driven mode can be selected in a good player. However so far there was no clear advantage of using event mode. Why? It is because almost all of DAC implementations always apply reclocking methods, this is a problem. I don't remember the brand, but it was a device in the price range $15k that was using full advantage of event driven mode.

/TL;DR,
Now coming back to the Denafrips. All Denafrips DACs (except Terminator Plus) do not have galvanic isolators on the USB connection. In this situation Denafrips DDC's bring solution to the problem, improving quality of the sound. It is still doing internal reclocking, so it is not the best solution and I see SMPS on the PC board Gaia.

DI-20 was introduced one year ago and immediately gained a highest praise from the users. Check DI-20 thread for details. It wasn't communicated with us clearly, but now we have more details. It is on the occasion of giving explanation why users should upgrade their DACs to the 2021 standard. All 2021 models receive the same mods as DI-20 had from the beginning.

It is what is happening there. As I mentioned before, USB controller is on a dirty side, so it is not a good idea to use controller clock as a reference clock. All others deploy reclocking. Audio GD decided to develop bi-directional galvanic isolator for I2S lines, feeding the internal high-precision fixed frequency clock back to the USB controller board (as opposed a feed-forward). In this way a full advantage of event driven mode can be achieved, no PLL or reclocking is used.

Denafrips DDC's do a job in their segment, their all product range, but what we get from Audio GD is standing up against most of competitors in the 10 times more expensive segment. It will change soon, as others will follow, but at the moment it is exceptional. Starting from entry level DI-20 and all DACs 2021 level, to the DI-20HE that can be used with other brands high-end solution due to the regenerative power supply.


----------



## Zachik

sajunky said:


> Now coming back to the Denafrips. All Denafrips DACs (except Terminator Plus) do not have galvanic isolators on the USB connection. In this situation Denafrips DDC's bring solution to the problem, improving quality of the sound. It is still doing internal reclocking, so it is not the best solution and I see SMPS on the PC board Gaia.
> 
> DI-20 was introduced one year ago and immediately gained a highest praise from the users. Check DI-20 thread for details. It wasn't communicated with us clearly, but now we have more details. It is on the occasion of giving explanation why users should upgrade their DACs to the 2021 standard. All 2021 models receive the same mods as DI-20 had from the beginning.
> 
> ...


Excellent explanation!
Since my DAC is NOT by Denafrips or Audio-GD - I will not benefit from any proprietary (or standard but not-implemented-by-anyone-else) hand-shake between the DAC and the DDC.
*Having said that, do you still think the DI-20 is superior to the Iris (or Hermes)?*  The Gaia is out of my price range, so not relevant for me.
(I did read the entire DI-20 thread, but no comparisons there to the Denafrips DDC either)

Thanks again.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 3, 2021)

Zachik said:


> Excellent explanation!
> Since my DAC is NOT by Denafrips or Audio-GD - I will not benefit from any proprietary (or standard but not-implemented-by-anyone-else) hand-shake between the DAC and the DDC.
> *Having said that, do you still think the DI-20 is superior to the Iris (or Hermes)?*  The Gaia is out of my price range, so not relevant for me.
> (I did read the entire DI-20 thread, but no comparisons there to the Denafrips DDC either)
> ...


A proprietary I2S feed back solution is internally between USB controller board and a main reference clock. A clock of the device I2S output is feed-forward, driven by a fixed frequency clock of DI-20, the same as others do. 

In other words DI-20 technology advantage described above applies to all other brands connecting to the DI-20, not only Audio GD DACs. So yes, DI-20 is is better than Iris and others for this reason (even Gaia), but check compatibilty first, as external I2S connection is not regulated by any standard. It becomes slowly de-facto industry standard though. Both Denafrips and Audio GD follow the same PS Audio I2S implementation, it is the latest trend.

Sorry if this part wasn't clear. English is not my home language, I am trying the best.


----------



## BlakeT (Feb 3, 2021)

sajunky said:


> How do you connect it to Yggy? It doesn't  make any sense. S/PDIF type of connection is already galvanically isolated and always require reclocking, no matter it is coming through DDC or directly from a source. Yggy do this job well, but a game changer (a real high-end solution) would be external clock input on Yggy.  As there is none, A2 version which improve quality of USB can give better results when using USB connection directly (bypassing DDC completely). And a Denafrips DDC solutions do not have reputation of Audio GD DI-20HE.



Do you own a Yggy A2 and Denafrips DDC?  Have you owned a Yggy A2 and tried it with any other quality DDC?  I have and my experience says you are 100% wrong.  But, glad for you that you enjoy your Audio-gd stuff.

You are making some pretty big claims here and there is zero chance you have personal experience with all these DDC's to claim superiority of the Audio-gd.  I have no problem with people hearing things differently and there are always synergies between certain products but you seem to be on here just to troll.


----------



## sajunky

BlakeT said:


> Do you own a Yggy A2 and Denafrips DDC?  Have you owned a Yggy A2 and tried it with any other quality DDC?  I have and my experience says you are 100% wrong.  But, glad for you that you enjoy your Audio-gd stuff.
> 
> You are making some pretty big claims here and there is zero chance you have personal experience with all these DDC's to claim superiority.


I am sorry, I will not answer your question, your post looks confrontational on one side and your example is not the best DDC use on the other.

Where is I2s on Yggy? Do it have an external clock input to achieve similar DDC advantage on the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) connection? Answer yourself, I do will not bother anymore.


----------



## driftingbunnies

sajunky said:


> I am sorry, I will not answer your question, your post looks confrontational on one side and your example is not the best DDC use on the other.
> 
> Where is I2s on Yggy? Do it have an external clock input to achieve similar DDC advantage on the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) connection? Answer yourself, I do will not bother anymore.



There is none. That is why I was thinking there can be more gain to be had if I found a DAC with an i2s input. Even without that though, I can tell there are some improvements. I think it just goes to show either how well the USB has been implemented on the ygg or how bad all their inputs are.


----------



## Zachik

sajunky said:


> A proprietary I2S feed back solution is internally between USB controller board and a main reference clock. A clock of the device I2S output is feed-forward, driven by a fixed frequency clock of DI-20, the same as others do.
> 
> In other words DI-20 technology advantage described above applies to all other brands connecting to the DI-20, not only Audio GD DACs. So yes, DI-20 is is better than Iris and others for this reason (even Gaia), but check compatibilty first, as external I2S connection is not regulated by any standard. It becomes slowly de-facto industry standard though. Both Denafrips and Audio GD follow the same PS Audio I2S implementation, it is the latest trend.
> 
> Sorry if this part wasn't clear. English is not my home language, I am trying the best.


I was going to use SPDIF or AES. Not I2S...  Also, my DAC does NOT support external clock.
Knowing that, do you still believe the DI-20 is superior to Denafrips DDC products? or do you think I will only see an advantage to DI-20 when using I2S?


----------



## BlakeT

sajunky said:


> I am sorry, I will not answer your question, your post looks confrontational on one side and your example is not the best DDC use on the other.
> 
> Where is I2s on Yggy? Do it have an external clock input to achieve similar DDC advantage on the S/PDIF (AES/EBU) connection? Answer yourself, I do will not bother anymore.



You won't answer because you have no personal experience with any Denafrips DDC and you are simply making up stuff here.  Yes, we know you LOVE Audio-gd.  Great for you.  Your question about Yggy having I2S is comical and dumb at the same time.


----------



## sajunky (Feb 3, 2021)

Zachik said:


> I was going to use SPDIF or AES. Not I2S...  Also, my DAC does NOT support external clock.
> Knowing that, do you still believe the DI-20 is superior to Denafrips DDC products? or do you think I will only see an advantage to DI-20 when using I2S?


Embedded clock on the S/PDIF or AES connection is jittery by a nature. If you don't synchronise with an external clock, an advantage of ultra stable DDC clock is a minimal. A difference in clock stability between DDC devices are tarnishing in result. The only benefit comes from ground loops protection: better protection, better sound. R2R DACs are very sensitive to ground loops. DI-20HE will still show an advantage in this respect, as competitors do not have regenerative power supply, but a final benefit will vary from one system to another. Clock stability relation to the sound quality is more predictable. Mathematically predictable.

EDIT: I will add that influence of clock stability on SQ also depends on a DAC PLL parameters. A tight PLL loop will improve internal clock quality, at a risk of losing synchronisation when source clock is not stable enough. It is why in some designs there is a switch for increasing frequency range PLL can achieve a lock on the source. This is on the cost of increased jitter. I don't know whether it is important with modern DDC devices though. It was usefull feature in the past with CD and tape transports.


----------



## Sage Encore (Feb 4, 2021)

BlakeT said:


> Do you own a Yggy A2 and Denafrips DDC?  Have you owned a Yggy A2 and tried it with any other quality DDC?  I have and my experience says you are 100% wrong.  But, glad for you that you enjoy your Audio-gd stuff.
> 
> You are making some pretty big claims here and there is zero chance you have personal experience with all these DDC's to claim superiority of the Audio-gd.  I have no problem with people hearing things differently and there are always synergies between certain products but you seem to be on here just to troll.


I second your thoughts Blake. All technical lahba lahba without having heard them in action, that too on a Denafrips thread. The audacity. Geez.


----------



## BlakeT (Feb 4, 2021)

To be clear, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone listens to Product A, compares it to Product B and finds that Product A is better sounding, whereas I like Product B.  If someone tries a a $50 Breeze Audio DDC and compares it in their system over a Gaia, Audio-gd, Berkley Alpha or whatever, cool, they just saved a bunch of money.

What does bug me is someone without any personal experience claiming *sonic* superiority of a certain product over something else, simply based on spec sheets, or technical preferences.  The correct response is "I suspect Product A might sound better based on such and such, but since I haven't tried it personally in my system, this is just a guess". 

Mixed in with the technical word vomit there were some very telling comments with subtle and not so subtle digs at Denafrips that show he is in this thread simply to stir the pot.......  and show off the fact that he has read some articles and is now an expert.  Tell me where to buy your product and I'll give it a shot if you think you are so smart, but absent that, and absent personal experience, this is all just grand standing and trollling.


----------



## koso

BlakeT said:


> To be clear, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone listens to Product A, compares it to Product B and finds that Product A is better sounding, whereas I like Product B.  If someone tries a a $50 Breeze Audio DDC and compares it in their system over a Gaia, Audio-gd, Berkley Alpha or whatever, cool, they just saved a bunch of money.
> 
> What does bug me is someone without any personal experience claiming *sonic* superiority of a certain product over something else, simply based on spec sheets, or technical preferences.  The correct response is "I suspect Product A might sound better based on such and such, but since I haven't tried it personally in my system, this is just a guess".
> 
> Mixed in with the technical word vomit there were some very telling comments with subtle and not so subtle digs at Denafrips that show he is in this thread simply to stir the pot.......  and show off the fact that he has read some articles and is now an expert.  Tell me where to buy your product and I'll give it a shot if you think you are so smart, but absent that, and absent personal experience, this is all just grand standing and trollling.



Spot on reaction Blake! Just wanted to say something similar about correctness of those posts.


----------



## driftingbunnies

Has anyone tried using a denafrips DDC with Holy Audio May? Based on the manuals I think they should work but I haven't seen any real world reports of the pairing.


----------



## sajunky

koso said:


> Spot on reaction Blake! Just wanted to say something similar about correctness of those posts.


*When criticising correctness of technical explanation, you must point out errors*. Some other were not able to point  out errors in my posts and had resqued to the personal allegations saying that "he has read some articles and is now an expert". I don't bother to reply to such insults. If such a person can find such articles specific to a subject in support of this claim, I will be happy to join, it will help developing a knowledge. So far I didn't see such article, Everything you heard is based on my technical education and experience, you hear it first time and you are trying to discredit it.

Fair enough? For now you are joining a bully, I wonder why you bother to post, you must have a special reason. You joined a forum in 2015 and it is your first post after a long time of inavtivity. If Denafrips Iris is a special reason, then fine, but your voice must present merits and your reputation is still not developed. How you can build reputation having 6 posts?


----------



## driftingbunnies

Has anyone tried using a denafrips DDC with Holy Audio May? Based on the manuals I think they should work but I haven't seen any real world reports of the pairing.(I'd like to ignore the bickering)


----------



## BlakeT

@sajunky: Don't try to play the victim here.  You jumped in this thread and started stirring the pot and you know it.  Since you hold yourself in such high esteem (you apparently think you know more about electronics than Denafrips and are not shy about it), what audio products have you designed and sold?  Can you point us to some reviews?  Talk is cheap.


----------



## BlakeT (Feb 5, 2021)

sajunky said:


> For now you are joining a bully, I wonder why you bother to post, you must have a special reason. You joined a forum in 2015 and it is your first post after a long time of inavtivity. If Denafrips Iris is a special reason, then fine, but your voice must present merits and your reputation is still not developed. How you can build reputation having 6 posts?



Wow dude, you really need to get out of the house more.  You are scrutinizing koso's history here and making psychotic posts about reputation points?  Get a life.


----------



## koso

sajunky said:


> *When criticising correctness of technical explanation, you must point out errors*. Some other were not able to point  out errors in my posts and had resqued to the personal allegations saying that "he has read some articles and is now an expert". I don't bother to reply to such insults. If such a person can find such articles specific to a subject in support of this claim, I will be happy to join, it will help developing a knowledge. So far I didn't see such article, Everything you heard is based on my technical education and experience, you hear it first time and you are trying to discredit it.
> 
> Fair enough? For now you are joining a bully, I wonder why you bother to post, you must have a special reason. You joined a forum in 2015 and it is your first post after a long time of inavtivity. If Denafrips Iris is a special reason, then fine, but your voice must present merits and your reputation is still not developed. How you can build reputation having 6 posts?



I just agreed with Blake. That's the reason “I bothered to post”. And that's all. What does this have to do with the number of my posts? Let everyone make their own conclusion based on how someone writes posts here.


----------



## sajunky

BlakeT said:


> @sajunky: Don't try to play the victim here.  You jumped in this thread and started stirring the pot and you know it.


Whathever it is it doesn't entitle you for personal remarks about my education, whatether. Attack the merits, not the messenger. Find something to oppose my findings, then come back we can talk. Activating a dormant or a secondary account will not help. Thank you.


----------



## BlakeT (Feb 5, 2021)

sajunky said:


> Whathever it is it doesn't entitle you for personal remarks about my education, whatether. Attack the merits, not the messenger. Find something to oppose my findings, then come back we can talk. *Activating a dormant or a secondary account will not help*. Thank you.



Wow, conspiracy theories now?      I love it.  Wait, perhaps I am @sajunky and I'm just secretly debating myself?  Big Foot is real, Elvis is still alive.

I hereby declare @sajunky the winner.

So now that is resolved, let's get back on topic, namely, finding the hidden I2S input on a Yggy and the absolute superiority of anything Audio-gd.


----------



## sajunky

BlakeT said:


> Wow, conspiracy theories now?      I love it.  Wait, perhaps I am @sajunky and I'm just secretly debating myself?  Big Foot is real, Elvis is still alive.
> 
> I hereby declare @sajunky the winner.
> 
> So now that is resolved, let's get back on topic, namely, finding the hidden I2S input on a Yggy and the absolute superiority of anything Audio-gd.


Is resolved, then we are fine, right? Enjoy music.


----------



## Sage Encore

BlakeT said:


> Wow, conspiracy theories now?      I love it.  Wait, perhaps I am @sajunky and I'm just secretly debating myself?  Big Foot is real, Elvis is still alive.
> 
> I hereby declare @sajunky the winner.
> 
> So now that is resolved, let's get back on topic, namely, finding the hidden I2S input on a Yggy and the absolute superiority of anything Audio-gd.


Nice one Blake.


----------



## johnzz4

So, this is the second time that I've seen someone post that Denafrips uses SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply) in their gear.  My knowledge on this topic is very limited besides having heard on numerous occasions that SMPS are noisier and less desirable than linear power supplies.  That said, Alvin's diagram shows a linear power supply section.  Are people misinterpreting the auto 120/240v switching as an SMPS - or maybe that portion is a SMPS and Denafrips blended both technologies for the best of both worlds?  Anyone have an idea?


----------



## sajunky (Feb 5, 2021)

johnzz4 said:


> So, this is the second time that I've seen someone post that Denafrips uses SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply) in their gear.  My knowledge on this topic is very limited besides having heard on numerous occasions that SMPS are noisier and less desirable than linear power supplies.  That said, Alvin's diagram shows a linear power supply section.  Are people misinterpreting the auto 120/240v switching as an SMPS - or maybe that portion is a SMPS and Denafrips blended both technologies for the best of both worlds?  Anyone have an idea?


Blended successfully - NOT, but the first part can be a valid point.


----------



## alvin1118

johnzz4 said:


> So, this is the second time that I've seen someone post that Denafrips uses SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply) in their gear.  My knowledge on this topic is very limited besides having heard on numerous occasions that SMPS are noisier and less desirable than linear power supplies.  That said, Alvin's diagram shows a linear power supply section.  Are people misinterpreting the auto 120/240v switching as an SMPS - or maybe that portion is a SMPS and Denafrips blended both technologies for the best of both worlds?  Anyone have an idea?



Hi @johnzz4 ,

The SMPS in DENAFRIPS components is use to power up the voltage sensing circuitry. 

This is how the sensing circuitry works:

DAC/DDC first power up (cold/black start), SMPS powered up
SMPS supply voltage to the voltage sensing circuitry. The sensing circuitry comprises of voltage detection, current sensing. It's essentially a micro processor, let's call it a _uP _here
_uP _senses and determines the input AC mains voltage range (120V / 240VAC)
Thereafter, the _uP _triggers its I/O to energize the power relays to supply the AC mains to the O-Core transformers primary windings
Linear power supply circuitry is now live, and the SMPS will be cut off
This explained why when DENAFRIPS components first power up, there is relay clicking sound internally. 

Hope this helps!


----------



## Sage Encore

alvin1118 said:


> Hi @johnzz4 ,
> 
> The SMPS in DENAFRIPS components is use to power up the voltage sensing circuitry.
> 
> ...


Great explanation Alvin. Wishing all at Denafrips a wonderful and safe CNY.


----------



## Max G

Hoping for a comparison to pi2aes and how close that gets to the new denafrips ddcs.


----------



## driftingbunnies

Gaia review


----------



## cglin222

So what is the difference between the Hermès and Gaia 
On their site spec looks the same


----------



## Thenewguy007

A higher quality spec OCXO clock.


----------



## cglin222

Thenewguy007 said:


> A higher quality spec OCXO clock.


Hmm both says precision OCXO tho...


----------



## alvin1118

The Hermes is trickled down from the Gaia DDC. The major differences between the Gaia / Hermes are:
- OCXOs in the Gaia are of superior quality
- Gaia chassis is made of full aluminum panels
- Hermes front panel is aluminum, chassis is metal alloy
- Hermes available in black only

I would say Hermes hits the sweet spot for most audiophile systems.


----------



## cglin222

alvin1118 said:


> The Hermes is trickled down from the Gaia DDC. The major differences between the Gaia / Hermes are:
> - OCXOs in the Gaia are of superior quality
> - Gaia chassis is made of full aluminum panels
> - Hermes front panel is aluminum, chassis is metal alloy
> ...


Ok thank Alvin!!


----------



## Sage Encore

alvin1118 said:


> The Hermes is trickled down from the Gaia DDC. The major differences between the Gaia / Hermes are:
> - OCXOs in the Gaia are of superior quality
> - Gaia chassis is made of full aluminum panels
> - Hermes front panel is aluminum, chassis is metal alloy
> ...


"I would say Hermes hits the sweet spot for most audiophile systems." I love the honesty in that statement Alvin. Thank you sir.


----------



## wanderer256

Hi,

Will Gaia work at its full potential if connected to standard PC via USB? Or high quality USB source is still a requirement?


----------



## S-S-MR

> Will Gaia work at its full potential if connected to standard PC via USB? Or high quality USB source is still a requirement?



You MUST get an audiophile PCIe USB card or you will never reach the full potential of your computer audio system. I have the Pink Faun USB Bridge without the upgraded clock or external linear power supply and it made a MASSIVE improvement to my high-end setup. I should have done this years ago before going down the rabbit hole of expensive gear and cables.


----------



## sajunky

Pink Faun USB Bridge is one solution, DDC is another. With a proper configuration on the PC - asynchronous USB transfers *with explicit end point* (USB terminology) - USB host is synchronised with a receiver clock. It is ideal situation for jitter-free transmision. @S-S-MR, your experience is not questioned here, but all modern USB receivers support this mode. It is not activated by default, it needs few steps to do, depends on your music player.

More problematic are ground loops. The most efficient way to break ground loops is a galvanic isolation, it is why we need DDC.


----------



## Thenewguy007

sajunky said:


> Pink Faun USB Bridge is one solution, DDC is another. With a proper configuration on the PC - asynchronous USB transfers *with explicit end point* (USB terminology) - USB host is synchronised with a receiver clock. It is ideal situation for jitter-free transmision. @S-S-MR, your experience is not questioned here, but all modern USB receivers support this mode. It is not activated by default, it needs few steps to do, depends on your music player.
> 
> More problematic are ground loops. The most efficient way to break ground loops is a galvanic isolation, it is why we need DDC.



How would you activate it? Like say with jRiver?


----------



## sajunky (Feb 27, 2021)

Thenewguy007 said:


> How would you activate it? Like say with jRiver?


All music players migrate from Direct Sound interface to the WASAPI as a default output Device. Latest builds of Windows 10 has a new programming interface for the apps store, it is a simplified access through the WASAPI. For legacy applications there are two steps:

1. Enable WASAPI exclusive mode in Windows Sound control panel for your device. It is neccessary for allowing applications to bypass Windows system mixer limitation and sound degradation, as Windows do a poor job. And it has a negative effect on USB transfers control. If it is not done, then USB transfer mode depends on the first application that opened a pipe to the device. It is not what you want.

Enable two options in the advanced section:
- allow application to use exclusive access
- give application a priority

2. Now all things depend on the music player. In Foobar install WASAPI plugin and select "WASAPI Event (your driver name)" output device. I don't use JRiver, but these links should be sufficient:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WASAPI_Event_Style
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WASAPI

On the second link do not enable a second option. If default is not working, then your device is older and do not support transfer speed synchronisation with a DAC clock.


----------



## GoldenOne

A user on head-fi recently loaned me a Denafrips Hermes to review, and I figured i'd post some thoughts here.
Initially, It was clear that it is most definitely a great DDC. And will definitely be a marked improvement from the internal DDCs of most DACs.
However, the more I listened and switched between both it and the much cheaper Pi2AES, the more I felt that actually....I preferred the pi2aes.

I then measured the jitter from both devices, and to my surprise, the pi2aes won. The $150 humble DDC was providing slightly better jitter performance than the $1000 OXCO, LPS etc etc DDC.

I've made a full video which you can see here, however my advice would be that while the Hermes is no doubt a great product, when something such as the pi2aes exists and outperforms it for an 8th of the price (albeit in a much more 'DIY' looking package), it simply doesn't make sense.

I would love to get ahold of a Di20HE or Gaia to review and test (if you have one you would be willing to lend me please do give me a shout!). But until then, the pi2aes is simply fantastic.


----------



## johnzz4

Quick update on a new i2s cable.  Now running the new Wireworld Silver Sphere HDMI.  It’s easily taken the place of the Tubulus Argentus.  Perfect blend of detail, tonal balance, and dynamics.


----------



## ahossam

I have Venus II & Gaia with me for about a week now, and played it non stop ever since.


----------



## koso (Apr 3, 2021)

johnzz4 said:


> Quick update on a new i2s cable.  Now running the new Wireworld Silver Sphere HDMI.  It’s easily taken the place of the Tubulus Argentus.  Perfect blend of detail, tonal balance, and dynamics.


Can you please tell us more about difference between Tubulus Argentus and WW Silver Sphere?
I have Tubulus Argentus HDMI between Gaia and Venus II and want to know if it is worth updating...
I had Siltech classic anniversary HDMI before Tubulus, it is more detailed cable, but Tubulus has deeper bass. I wish I had both qualities in one cable ( ery detailed and deep bass at the same time).


----------



## Louisiana

Bought a Iris one week ago, can't notice any benefits to sound from RPi4 to Denafrips Iris to Bifrost 2.


----------



## BIG POPPA

So I am joining the club. Have an Iris coming to feed the Sonnet Morpheus. Read all 17 pages. Did learn a few things. Phasure audio and Tubulus are the cables to get. Anyt5hing else besides getting a Gaia please let me know.


----------



## BlakeT

BIG POPPA said:


> So I am joining the club. Have an Iris coming to feed the Sonnet Morpheus. Read all 17 pages. Did learn a few things. Phasure audio and Tubulus are the cables to get. Anyt5hing else besides getting a Gaia please let me know.



Welcome to the club!


----------



## Ratephi

Any experience testing one of the Denafrips DDCs in combination with a Chord DAVE? I'd be curious to hear about it, if possible..


----------



## Zurv (Apr 21, 2021)

@Roasty Should I assume the when you tested the Gaia with your wavedream that it should also work with the wavedream? (or maybe i just get a SU-6  )

I wonder which clock is "better" too. The wavedream custom magic or the standard by sexy OCXO clock in the Giaia? The wave can use the local clock or the steamed one.



> FEMTOVOX CLOCK SYSTEM​The clock is the heart of a digital reproduction system. It’s accuracy and jitter levels are critical in regard of sound quality. Only a very good clock system can make the way to the analog sound on the output of your DAC. If the clock is flawed, digital harshness will occur and the analog feeling of the music will be severely altered. Apart from the performance of the clock itself, equally critical is the construction of the clock tree (the clock distribution architecture) inside the DAC. The jitter amount that really counts it’s not only the performance of the clock itself – but the clock which actually enters the dac and is used for conversion – let’s call it the conversion clock. The conversion clock that enters the dac section relies on the clock tree, which is usually not just routing, but in most cases conditioning, altering it’s quality. A poorly designed clock tree can degrade significantly the clock quality entering the d/a section, even if the source clock has great performance.
> 
> With these facts in mind, we designed for the Wavedream an advanced clock system called the femtovox. With femtovox in place, one is assured that only extremely small amounts of jitter are present at the dac conversion clock input. It’s unique architecture employs that conversion clock is directly synthesised at the dac input, without any conditioning, giving constant jitter performance at any sample rate. The conversion clock is controlled with 1 ppb precision, while exhibiting about 300 fS of jitter. The smallest jitter figure in the world? No. The smallest jitter figure where actually matters? Probably.


----------



## Zurv

Roasty said:


> Hey thanks man.
> Just large pieces of matte black plastic corrugated boards which were cut out to size and to accommodate the shapes of the components. They're cheap too about USD8 for three boards of 50x75cm. Yea I don't like looking at the wires behind, especially as it's in direct sight from where I sit on the couch. Also doubles to reduce dust getting into the cabinet.



oh.. great idea. Ordered!


----------



## Zurv

driftingbunnies said:


> Thanks for the picture! I've been using mine for the past week or so since I got it. It's been nice. I do feel like I need to get a dac that can receive i2s to get the most out of it. It's currently making a subtle difference for my Ygg A2. Nothing changes in tonality but the timing and naturalness of the music is slightly better.



What are you feeding the yggy? AES?


----------



## Zurv (Apr 21, 2021)

S-S-MR said:


> You MUST get an audiophile PCIe USB card or you will never reach the full potential of your computer audio system. I have the Pink Faun USB Bridge without the upgraded clock or external linear power supply and it made a MASSIVE improvement to my high-end setup. I should have done this years ago before going down the rabbit hole of expensive gear and cables.



What about the Pink Fuan I2s bridge itself and skip the DDC?
(i'm fact this the where I am right now. I'll soon have a Rockna Wavedream and want to feed it i2s when i'm using my PC. (I plan to use the Pi2saes as the other source, which i hear is amazing.) I do have the Pink Faun i2s bridge card coming, but i worry about the noise it will pick up sitting between 2 nvidia 3090s - i also worry about it converting redbook to a higher clock. Thus, i'm thinking about the Gaia (or su-6 or DI-20HE) --- argh! i wish denafrips has a US office... which would likely be in NYC  )


----------



## S-S-MR

Zurv said:


> What about the Pink Fuan I2s bridge itself and skip the DDC?
> (i'm fact this the where I am right now. I'll soon have a Rockna Wavedream and want to feed it i2s when i'm using my PC. (I plan to use the Pi2saes as the other source, which i hear is amazing.) I do have the Pink Faun i2s bridge card coming, but i worry about the noise it will pick up sitting between 2 nvidia 3090s - i also worry about it converting redbook to a higher clock. Thus, i'm thinking about the Gaia (or su-6 or DI-20HE) --- argh! i wish denafrips has a US office... which would likely be in NYC  )


I originally thought I might have made a mistake buying the USB bridge instead of the I2S bridge, but I learned from various websites that the I2S bridge is limited to 24-bit, 192 kHz and does NOT send DSD, has only one output available, and the usual I2S pin-out configuration problems if one wants to switch DACs.

The USB bridge on the other hand is limited to the USB audio specifications. I am even more satisfied with the USB bridge now that I have the Ultra OCXO clock and Uptone Audio JS-2 LPS. Error prevention beats error correction!


----------



## Zurv (Apr 22, 2021)

hrmm.. good point.. but.. you are a crazy person (which i approve of) - went with the Pink Faun USB bridge and the ultra clock AND the gaia 

To me it was an one or the other.  I think only 1 of the clocks is going to be used too.

i also don't listen to DSD.
I wish i knew about the quality of the clock i the wavedream compared to the pink or gaia. But a USB from the PC with external power.. hrmm.. that seems like a good idea. 
That said, when the prices start going up, i'd rather have a device (like gaia) vs a PCI-E card.


----------



## S-S-MR

Zurv said:


> hrmm.. good point.. but.. you are a crazy person (which i approve of) - went with the Pink Faun USB bridge and the ultra clock AND the gaia
> 
> To me it was an one or the other.  I think only 1 of the clocks is going to be used too.
> 
> ...


This was not obvious to me, but the clocking from USB ports and the PCM/DSD clocking from DAC/DDCs are two separate things, so there's only reclocking between the DDC and DAC, so it's not a waste of money; if you can afford it, go for it!  This is very expensive, so I hope you get the same jaw-dropping improvement that I have. 

I have an air-cooled gaming PC, next to a Wi-Fi router, with power and signal cables close to or touching each other, in a house built in the 1970s.

I started with the base card, then added the LPS, and finally, the clock, and I couldn't be happier.


----------



## Zurv

Did you add the clock to the pink while already owning the Gaia?
It would be interesting to pop the clock off. (No i'm not suggesting you do that. Pain in the butt to open a PC and pull are card out.)
for me i2s or usb bridge - hrmm.. i should look at a good external power option. 

but everything has to fit here: (which is under 6") (The Rockna (which is on order now) has kinda large feet.. so i might be able to fit that and the gaia....)


----------



## S-S-MR

Zurv said:


> Did you add the clock to the pink while already owning the Gaia?


Yes. I had the Gaia first, then added the USB bridge, then the LPS, and finally, the clock. I also had the Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 USB Gen 5 fed by a Singxer SU-6 DDC via AES/EBU.


----------



## Zurv (Apr 24, 2021)

Roasty said:


> Hey thanks man.
> Just large pieces of matte black plastic corrugated boards which were cut out to size and to accommodate the shapes of the components. They're cheap too about USD8 for three boards of 50x75cm. Yea I don't like looking at the wires behind, especially as it's in direct sight from where I sit on the couch. Also doubles to reduce dust getting into the cabinet.


A little off-topic.. but Roasty is a sexy man.. that is a fact. The matte black plastic idea has saved me from wire nightmare mess under my desk! @Roasty 
thanks sir!


----------



## ShangriLa (Apr 24, 2021)

Glad I found this thread. I can't think of a better place to ask this question than in a Denafrips DDC thread under computer audio subforum. I will go through the entire thread, but would like to get some general opinion. I mostly play from a thrid-party app in MAC, or Tidal via Audirvana in MAC. Would Iris/Gaia improve sound quality noticeably?

My desktop setup consists of Denafrpis Ares II, Akitika GT102 amp, and Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2-EX. While I'm very happy with the overall sound, I'm still thinking if there are ways to improve. I heard so much about computer being a bad source and USB being a less optimal interface, and am very tempted to try an Iris. If that works, I will probably get a Gaia in my main listening setup. I used to have the impression that USB audio was the best interface (compared to optical/coaxial) and some DAC (Benchmark DAC3 for example) have internal reclockers. The 2 make a good setup for ditigal listening. But these days I'm reading USB being inferior and USB -> DDC -> I2S -> DAC being the optimal setup. Supposedly the worse the source (ie computer), the more difference a DDC makes. So I'm very curious whether DDC really make difference when playing from a computer? Thanks!


----------



## Roasty

Zurv said:


> A little off-topic.. but Roasty is a sexy man.. that is a fact. The matte black plastic idea has saved me from wire nightmare mess under my desk! @Roasty
> thanks sir!



That looks great, man! U did a better job than me. Very clean. Glad u liked the idea!


----------



## BlakeT

ShangriLa said:


> But these days I'm reading USB being inferior and USB -> DDC -> I2S -> DAC being the optimal setup. Supposedly the worse the source (ie computer), the more difference a DDC makes. So I'm very curious whether DDC really make difference when playing from a computer? Thanks!



From my personal experience, absolutely.  For your Denafrips DAC, I2S is the optimal input (although USB is good as well), and the DDC will definitely improve sonics when playing from a computer.


----------



## sajunky (Apr 25, 2021)

ShangriLa said:


> I used to have the impression that USB audio was the best interface (compared to optical/coaxial) and some DAC (Benchmark DAC3 for example) have internal reclockers. The 2 make a good setup for ditigal listening. But these days I'm reading USB being inferior and USB -> DDC -> I2S -> DAC being the optimal setup. Supposedly the worse the source (ie computer), the more difference a DDC makes. So I'm very curious whether DDC really make difference when playing from a computer? Thanks!


USB is the best interface, as it can deliver data frames asynchronously (feed-back  - on the request of a DAC), so a DAC is clocked by a high precision internal fixed frequency oscilator, no reclocking is required. It is how my R2R-11 is operating, it is the best case scenario. In the same way Ares could operate, but it does reclocking, which by a principle of operation is unneccesary in this case, but read on.

On the other side, USB is the worst interface in respect of spreading ground loops, as it use DC signal levels for signalisation. Ground loops and EMI enter inside a DAC and mess up with conversion. My inexpensive R2R-11 do not have protection against. Ares engineers decided to do reclocking, maybe they found it helps fighting ground loops, I don't know. Traditional methods of isolating USB galvanically did not bring good results, but it is easy to add a galvanic isolation *after* converting to I2S (which is internal DAC format). It leaves USB receiver on a dirty side, a bad things, it is losing a biggest advantage of USB - such clock cannot be used directly for a DAC as isolators add a significant amount of jitter, reclocking is required in such case. In such way Terminator Plus is operating. Now you see, only the most expensive Denafrips DAC has a galvanic isolator on USB.

In such situation an idea of DDC came out. It adds an additional level of isolation from ground loops that Ares is missing and it improve a sound, no question about. In your case I2S interface between DDC cannot be used which is the best use of DDC, but I am sure that a good DDC will still bring improvements.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Just got a custom ordered RJ45 I2S cable from Cardas and waiting for one from Phasure for the Iris to feed the Sonett Mopheus. Iris should be shipping out in a couple weeks or so. Exited to hear the Iris now with everything I have waiting for it.


----------



## ShangriLa (Apr 29, 2021)

I reached out to exasound with a few questions regarding their DAC. One question is whether their DAC will benefit from a DDC like Denafrips'. And I specifically mentioned I use a MAC laptop. The answer is their DAC has internal reclocker, there will be no benefit from an external one. Interesting answer. Do Denafrips DAC have internal reclocker, I think some do? But it seems they still benefit from a DDC. This is confusing..


----------



## ShangriLa (Apr 29, 2021)

BlakeT said:


> From my personal experience, absolutely.  For your Denafrips DAC, I2S is the optimal input (although USB is good as well), and the DDC will definitely improve sonics when playing from a computer.


I feel a DDC should help too. And if it does, I should hear an improvement with 'just' the Iris on the desktop setup.


sajunky said:


> USB is the best interface, as it can deliver data frames asynchronously (feed-back  - on the request of a DAC), so a DAC is clocked by a high precision internal fixed frequency oscilator, no reclocking is required. It is how my R2R-11 is operating, it is the best case scenario. In the same way Ares could operate, but it does reclocking, which by a principle of operation is unneccesary in this case, but read on.
> 
> On the other side, USB is the worst interface in respect of spreading ground loops, as it use DC signal levels for signalisation. Ground loops and EMI enter inside a DAC and mess up with conversion. My inexpensive R2R-11 do not have protection against. Ares engineers decided to do reclocking, maybe they found it helps fighting ground loops, I don't know. Traditional methods of isolating USB galvanically did not bring good results, but it is easy to add a galvanic isolation *after* converting to I2S (which is internal DAC format). It leaves USB receiver on a dirty side, a bad things, it is losing a biggest advantage of USB - such clock cannot be used directly for a DAC as isolators add a significant amount of jitter, reclocking is required in such case. In such way Terminator Plus is operating. Now you see, only the most expensive Denafrips DAC has a galvanic isolator on USB.
> 
> In such situation an idea of DDC came out. It adds an additional level of isolation from ground loops that Ares is missing and it improve a sound, no question about. In your case I2S interface between DDC cannot be used which is the best use of DDC, but I am sure that a good DDC will still bring improvements.


Yeah I just noticed my area ii doenst have I2S input. Thank you for the detailed explanation. Need to digest it a bit. But appreciate the reply.


----------



## alvin1118

Typical usage of the DDC / Reclocker 🗨️


----------



## BIG POPPA

@alvin1118 your the best!! Now only if mine will ship...... lol. No worries, got more RJ45 I2S cables coming.
Gil


----------



## raykkho

Enjoying mine


----------



## nekky

raykkho said:


> Enjoying mine


Wow.. that is some nice "stack"... I am scared to listen to an Element X because I feel like out of everything in the market, it is the only device so far that I'm sure could replace my desktop setup.  Which cans are plugged in?

And could you comment on the difference that the Gaia made?  I run a Gustard X26pro into a Singxer SA-1 and do use Tidal for MQA but am becoming tired of it: the app is clunky, it doesn't play nice with Carplay when I do use it in the car, and we all now know MQA is BS.  Meaning that I don't really care if I lose MQA capability, I still love this DAC.


----------



## raykkho

nekky said:


> Wow.. that is some nice "stack"... I am scared to listen to an Element X because I feel like out of everything in the market, it is the only device so far that I'm sure could replace my desktop setup.  Which cans are plugged in?
> 
> And could you comment on the difference that the Gaia made?  I run a Gustard X26pro into a Singxer SA-1 and do use Tidal for MQA but am becoming tired of it: the app is clunky, it doesn't play nice with Carplay when I do use it in the car, and we all now know MQA is BS.  Meaning that I don't really care if I lose MQA capability, I still love this DAC.


Thanks for the kind word. 

The X was my top choice for the price range I could afford and the requirements I had (streamer/DAC/headphone amp all-in-one), and I am more than happy with my purchase.  Recently brought it to a show room and compared it to a twice as expensive TOTL r2r DAC, I wouldn't say the X won, but the presentations I heard that day was every bit as enjoyable and comparable to the r2r flagship DAC at twice the price.  Measurement wise you can reference ASR website, and as far as I can tell, SOTA.  My only full size cans is a pair of Meze Empyrean, liquid and lovely, to me the X has no problem driving them to levels satisfactory to me, usually around -15 on low gain in a quiet room.

With the GAIA the main difference TO ME is quieter/blacker background, a more liquid presentation and at the same time I notice I can turn the music up a notch too without feeling any kind of fatigue.  One thing about the element X is that only USB connection works with MQA, and now that I am connecting the GAIA to the X via i2s, I am not getting full MQA decode and rendering that the X can do, but then again I don't miss it much, on MQA only Tidal material, I just turn on Roon's MQA Core decoder, which has a max 24/96 limit, I am totally fine with that.

The Matrix Audio app according to some users are buggy though, I wouldn't know as I use Roon exclusively, all I can tell you X works absolutely flawlessly with Roon.

Not sure if it is helpful to you, cheers.


----------



## nekky

raykkho said:


> Thanks for the kind word.
> 
> The X was my top choice for the price range I could afford and the requirements I had (streamer/DAC/headphone amp all-in-one), and I am more than happy with my purchase.  Recently brought it to a show room and compared it to a twice as expensive TOTL r2r DAC, I wouldn't say the X won, but the presentations I heard that day was every bit as enjoyable and comparable to the r2r flagship DAC at twice the price.  Measurement wise you can reference ASR website, and as far as I can tell, SOTA.  My only full size cans is a pair of Meze Empyrean, liquid and lovely, to me the X has no problem driving them to levels satisfactory to me, usually around -15 on low gain in a quiet room.
> 
> ...


Thank you kindly for the detailed explanation and yes as much as I don’t care about Tidal like I did when I got an MQA-enabled DAC, I suppose it would be unfortunate to lose it. However one major thing I noticed when upgrading past entry level gear is that all music sounds pretty good now.. I am listening PC->Gustard X26pro->Singxer SA-1 with Focal Elegia, Aeon Open X, Audeze LCD-XC, and have a set of Stabilized ZMF Aeolus on the way. I can’t say I find the quality lacking but if there is a noticeable gain to be had, especially with its little brother the Iris, I’m all ears.


----------



## raykkho

nekky said:


> Thank you kindly for the detailed explanation and yes as much as I don’t care about Tidal like I did when I got an MQA-enabled DAC, I suppose it would be unfortunate to lose it. However one major thing I noticed when upgrading past entry level gear is that all music sounds pretty good now.. I am listening PC->Gustard X26pro->Singxer SA-1 with Focal Elegia, Aeon Open X, Audeze LCD-XC, and have a set of Stabilized ZMF Aeolus on the way. I can’t say I find the quality lacking but if there is a noticeable gain to be had, especially with its little brother the Iris, I’m all ears.


I can still use full MQA decode if wanted on the X, just have to forgo the GAIA and switch input source from i2s to network, which also routes signal through the X's XMOS processor.

Hope you find what you want, enjoy the music


----------



## BIG POPPA

Have the Iris feeding the Sonett Morpheus with I2S RJ45. Furutech GT2 Pro USB, Phasure custom I2S RJ45 cable. The Iris is great with DAC's that like tuning. (Schiit DAC's doesn't play well with this). The Iris is a steal at their price. Very happy purchase.


----------



## CAJames

I got my Terminator2 a week ago, I guess I need to be in this thread too cuz I see a Gaia in my future...


----------



## sajunky

CAJames said:


> I got my Terminator2 a week ago, I guess I need to be in this thread too cuz I see a Gaia in my future...


Not good, maybe you should wait till burn in is completed...


----------



## CAJames

sajunky said:


> Not good, maybe you should wait till burn in is completed...



It will take longer than that for my bank account to recover, I assure you .


----------



## Roasty (Jun 5, 2021)

On Alvin's recommendation, got the Hermes over the Gaia. Just received it today and plugged it in.
Still early.. running it in.. but so far, i2s (Pink Faun) sounds better than aes/ebu (Synergistic Research) into the Rockna Wavelight. Denser vocals, thicker mids and mid bass, and better bass weight and punch. Very nice black background on both though.


----------



## Roasty

Alvin sent me a YouTube link to configure the i2s pinout on the Hermes. 

After some testing, using L R center channel test track, settled on the following as sounding the best to me. 

Hermes DDC pinout 000
Wavelight i2s mode 3

Center image is strongest and most distinct with the above, and with mode 3 keeps the LR channels correct when swapping between pcm/dsd.


----------



## shafat777 (Jun 7, 2021)

HI,

I just received my Pontus 2 and was thinking about getting a DDC, most likely a hermes. Can anyone plz guide me through the setup? Currently, i have it hooked up to my pc with audioquest carbon usb cable. What cable do i need? Would adding a DDC improve the sound quality? All of my equipment are powered through a Furman power conditioner.

Thank you


----------



## BlakeT

Congrats @shafat777!

Vinshine's YouTube channel has helpful setup videos:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQcv3_vh9k7cM_zGGn1mTXw

Regarding the use of a DDC, I don't have the Pontus but my sense from reading many impressions of other Denafrips DAC users is, the majority seem to prefer I2S input, although USB is still very good and a few prefer it.


----------



## dcguy73 (Jun 9, 2021)

I will be joining this group soon with a Gaia. As my source doesn't have a direct I2S out, I currently use a Singxer SU-1 KTE DDC to convert its USB output to I2S for my DAC, but I'm convinced the Singxer is bright-sounding. I'm hoping that replacing the Singxer with a Gaia will make the sound more neutral or maybe even a little more relaxed.
[Edited for clarity]


----------



## ShaolinGrump

I have a Kitsune SU-2.  I love it.  I also just got a secondhand Denafrips IRIS for my basement system.  It pumps good sound through S/PDIF to my new-to-me Audiobyte Black Dragon DAC.  The AES path has some pops and crackles.  The HDMI is silent with a budget HDMI cable and a Pangea Premier SE 0.6m HDMI cable.  I am working with Pine Tree Audio to build a custom cable that I can try various pinout configurations for the DAC end.


----------



## S Crowther

dcguy73 said:


> I will be joining this group soon with a Gaia. As my source doesn't have I2S out, I need a conversion box. I have been using a Singxer SU-1 KTE DDC and I'm convinced it's bright-sounding. I'm hoping adding the Gaia will make the sound more neutral or maybe even a little more relaxed.


The source does not need to have i2s out. The Gaia converts whatever input signal to i2s. It is the DAC that needs an i2s input to take the i2s feed from the Gaia.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

S Crowther said:


> The source does not need to have i2s out. The Gaia converts whatever input signal to i2s. It is the DAC that needs an i2s input to take the i2s feed from the Gaia.


I read it the same way. He means his computer or player doesn’t have i2S output. To get an i2S path to his DAC, he used an SU-1 and wants a Denafrips to swap in now.


----------



## dcguy73

ShaolinGrump said:


> I read it the same way. He means his computer or player doesn’t have i2S output. To get an i2S path to his DAC, he used an SU-1 and wants a Denafrips to swap in now.


Thanks for interpreting my garbled post! You're right, that's what I meant. Words are hard.


----------



## S Crowther

dcguy73 said:


> Thanks for interpreting my garbled post! You're right, that's what I meant. Words are hard.


Ah. I see. Interestingly I was using a Singxter SU-6 for the same reason before I recently changed to the Gaia.


----------



## Thinman

Has there been any compatibility issues with the Gaia? More specifically, can anyone confirm that the Gaia works problem-free with the Metrum Adagio?


----------



## shafat777

For those of you that are using either the IRIS or HERMES with their denafrips dac, is it just plug and play? Do you just connect the usb to the DDC and then the DDC to the DAC using a HDMI cable? or is there some tinkering involved to make it work? Any help would be welcome. 

I am thinking about ordering a hermes DDC after dropping $1800 for a Pontus 2 so i need to figure out the cable and connectivity needed to make it work.


----------



## sajunky (Jun 17, 2021)

All DDC I know are plug & play. You may need to select a source input, at least the first time.
You don't have to have Denafrips DDC. Compatibility problems with different makes are restricted to a different pin assignment of HDMI connector, easy to overcome.


----------



## BlakeT

It is plug and play.


----------



## CAJames (Jun 17, 2021)

I would suggest reading the manuals and checking out the videos of the Gaia on the Denafrips site. You may need to set the "clock in" on the DDC and I2S pinout on your DAC. It isn't hard but I just received my Gaia a couple days ago and it wasn't exactly plug and play out of the box, and I believe the Iris and Hermes are similar. It is easy, but it is a thing.


----------



## shafat777 (Jun 17, 2021)

Can I just use any good brand HDMI cable if I wanna connect denafrips ddc to a denafrips pontus 2 dac? I keep seeing theres a clock in feature with this dac which requires 2 additional cable. I can really use any insight regarding connecting this DDC to my Pontus 2 dac


----------



## S Crowther

shafat777 said:


> Can I just use any good brand HDMI cable if I wanna connect denafrips ddc to a denafrips pontus 2 dac? I keep seeing theres a clock in feature with this dac which requires 2 additional cable. I can really use any insight regarding connecting this DDC to my Pontus 2 dac


Suggest you do what I did and email Alvin who will step you through the set up. He also has YouTube videos showing how to do it.
The clock in feature is only for the Terminator Plus. You have to turn it off.


----------



## CAJames (Jun 18, 2021)

shafat777 said:


> Can I just use any good brand HDMI cable if I wanna connect denafrips ddc to a denafrips pontus 2 dac? I keep seeing theres a clock in feature with this dac which requires 2 additional cable. I can really use any insight regarding connecting this DDC to my Pontus 2 dac


Yes, you can absolutely  connect with only a HDMI cable. You just need to ensure the DDC is configured with "clock in" off. Using the clock from the DAC is bonus but not necessary.


----------



## shafat777

Just ordered my Hermes to pair with my Pontus 2. Cant wait to find out what kind of sonic improvement this will add to my setup.


----------



## shafat777

I just received my Hermes DDC and I hooked it up to my Pontus 2 dac using HDMI (I2S) cable, It sounds wonderful however, the Left and Right channels are swapped. It happends in every track, movies and games that i play. I checked the cables from the back of the DAC to my Elise OTL amp and the Left and right channels are connected the right way but i am getting opposite sounds, can anyone please help me. 

Thank you


----------



## Roasty

shafat777 said:


> I just received my Hermes DDC and I hooked it up to my Pontus 2 dac using HDMI (I2S) cable, It sounds wonderful however, the Left and Right channels are swapped. It happends in every track, movies and games that i play. I checked the cables from the back of the DAC to my Elise OTL amp and the Left and right channels are connected the right way but i am getting opposite sounds, can anyone please help me.
> 
> Thank you



U need to change the i2s settings on the hermes. 

The following is from Alvin @ Vinshine. 

Hermes & Gaia DDC - i2s pinout configuration:


1. Connect the i2s cable
2. Turn down the volume (minimal)
3. Play a familiar music (PCM first, follow by DSD)
4. Run through the i2s setting 000-111


----------



## shafat777

Roasty said:


> U need to change the i2s settings on the hermes.
> 
> The following is from Alvin @ Vinshine.
> 
> ...



Bro that did the trick. OMG thank you so much. I appreciate it. You just saved me from definite panic attack and unwanted anxiety


----------



## shafat777

Do you guys turn off your Hermes when not in use? If so, how do you turn it off. I don't see any power button. Thanks in advance


----------



## Roasty

shafat777 said:


> Do you guys turn off your Hermes when not in use? If so, how do you turn it off. I don't see any power button. Thanks in advance



you're not supposed to turn it off. just leave it on so the ocxo remains in an optimum state.


----------



## shafat777

Roasty said:


> you're not supposed to turn it off. just leave it on so the ocxo remains in an optimum state.


Thanks man. Youve been so helpful to me with my DDC. I cant thank you enough.


----------



## Roasty

shafat777 said:


> Thanks man. Youve been so helpful to me with my DDC. I cant thank you enough.



No worries dude. That's what we're all here for!


----------



## HPAholic

So basically if your DAC does not support I2S, the benefits of using a Denafrips DDC + MCLK would be minimal or nothing as trying to use one of the Digital Outs from the DDC like AES/EBU back to the DAC Digital Inputs of AES/EBU?  Just looking for maybe an excuse to purchase a new DAC


----------



## CAJames

HPAholic said:


> So basically if your DAC does not support I2S, the benefits of using a Denafrips DDC + MCLK would be minimal or nothing as trying to use one of the Digital Outs from the DDC like AES/EBU back to the DAC Digital Inputs of AES/EBU?  Just looking for maybe an excuse to purchase a new DAC



Firstly, you should absolutely buy a new DAC, just on principle.    

But seriously, I think there are some benefits to using the DDC + MCLK even if you connect to the DAC via AES/EBU. The better the digital signal is coming into the DAC the better it is going to sound, regardless of the connection. But you will get the maximum performance if you can connect the DDC with I2S. 

In my own experience (not exactly comparable to what you are proposing) I received my Gaia before I got the BNC cables to connect the clock out from the Terminator 2. And there was a noticeable improvement from the DDC (connected to the DAC via I2S) without the clock sync. But it got even better once I feed the DDC with the clock out from the T2. If you have a sufficiently  resolving system pretty much everything matters, and I suspect any upgrade from Denafrips would be an improvement. JMO/YMMV of course.


----------



## ARCXENOS

I have recently bought an Ares II unit before going down the DDC rabbit hole, should I still bother with the Iris with it? Or should I just wait for my next upgrade cycle about 3-4 years later, no i2s support on the Ares II I believe.

I am gonna use it my desktop -> ares 2 -> feliks echo tube amp -> hd800s, but is it worth the asking price at this point?


----------



## Pjotr27

Does a cd drive (SPDIF only) sounds better when I use a Denafrips Hermes between the cd drive and my dac?


----------



## mat.1

Hi, 
I have a Terminator 2 and Lumin U1 mini.
What improvement can i get if i add Denafrips Gaia ?


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 2, 2021)

mat.1 said:


> Hi,
> I have a Terminator 2 and Lumin U1 mini.
> What improvement can i get if i add Denafrips Gaia ?



If you've got the Terminator 2, then personally, I'd for sure get one of the Denafrips DDC's.  First, the DDC will allow you to use the Termi's I2S input.  Just from reading lots of Denafrips DAC reviews and from my own personal experience, I dare say a strong majority of Denafrips DAC owners view the I2S input to be the best sounding input, which I find to be more open and airy sounding.

Secondly, you can take advantage of the new clock out feature of the Termi 2.  What I've found is, the clock out results in a turbo charging of clarity/detail and 3D holography (better, larger more well defined soundstage, imaging, instrumental separation).

Once you've spent funds at that level, it is a no brainer to get the DDC.  You are not hearing your Termi at its best until you take advantage of the clock out and I2S input In my opinion.


----------



## sajunky

BlakeT said:


> Secondly, you can *take advantage of the new clock out feature of the Termi 2*. What I've found is, the clock out results in a turbo charging of clarity/detail and 3D holography (better, larger more well defined soundstage, imaging, instrumental separation).
> 
> Once you've spent funds at that level, it is a no brainer to get the DDC. You are not hearing your Termi at its best until you take advantage of the clock out and I2S input In my opinion.


^^^ This.


----------



## mat.1

Is the clock cable must be better  than i2s cable ? Or i just need to find better i2s cable , and just using canare 75 ohm bnc cable ? Thx.


----------



## ChocolateChipTrip

I was considering a Hermes for my Venus II with possible upgrade to a Terminator II down the line.  I have a Sonore OpticalRendu.  Alvin recommended that I try the Iris FWIW.


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 13, 2021)

mat.1 said:


> Is the clock cable must be better  than i2s cable ? Or i just need to find better i2s cable , and just using canare 75 ohm bnc cable ? Thx.


Both the i2s (HDMI) cable and the clock cables make a difference.  Depending on the music formats you listen to, you may only need one clock cable.  I'd suggest you start with reasonably priced cables, get very familiar with the sound of your system and then later on, if your budget allows and you are still curious, try more expensive HDMI and clock cables and see if you hear differences. 

If you don't hear improvements with more expensive cables, great, just party on with your existing setup!  If you hear improvements, then you'll have to do some thinking about how much you are willing to spend to pursue those further sonic improvements.  It can get very expensive, very quickly.... like all things in audio.


----------



## shafat777

ChocolateChipTrip said:


> I was considering a Hermes for my Venus II with possible upgrade to a Terminator II down the line.  I have a Sonore OpticalRendu.  Alvin recommended that I try the Iris FWIW.


If you are gonna high end like the Venus or better yet, the Terminator, then I think you should atleast spring for the Hermes. That device has been a revelation in my setup and I have the Pontus, so i can only imagine what it will do for better dacs. Alvin also recommend me the Hermes and said that that DDC should be more than enough for most users.


----------



## Jacky5555

Hi,
My dac is nagra HD dac, which has a i2s (rj45) but I cant find any more information about it, other than the manual says the i2s is “nagra standard”.
The Gaia has i2s rj45 LVCMOS standard.
Anyone pls advise if Gaia i2s is compatible to the Nagara?


----------



## CAJames

Jacky5555 said:


> Hi,
> My dac is nagra HD dac, which has a i2s (rj45) but I cant find any more information about it, other than the manual says the i2s is “nagra standard”.
> The Gaia has i2s rj45 LVCMOS standard.
> Anyone pls advise if Gaia i2s is compatible to the Nagara?


My advice would be to contact Vinshine  Audio. I know you can change the pinout of the HDMI I2S interface, but not sure if it works the same for RJ45.


----------



## sajunky

I2S over RJ45 is typically LVCMOS which is similar to TTL. Therefore it is safe to try. Pin-out can be different (like with HDMI) and it is always wise to get more information before trying.


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 31, 2021)

@sajunky is correct (edit: I see @Jacky5555  also noted this).  The I2S over RJ45 for the Denafrips DDC's is LVCMOS.  I2S over HDMI is LVDS (low voltage differential signaling).

LVCMOS is *very* sensitive to noise and the RJ45 cable must be extremely short or you will encounter static-like noise. We are talking 30 cm or less. Ask me how I know   Of course, no harm in giving it a try.

LVCMOS sounded very nice to me, until the noise crept in.  Just go with HDMI.  No noise and also sounds very good- a slightly different sound than LVCMOS, but it would be down to personal preferences and system matching.


----------



## Jacky5555

Thank you all for your advices. I have tried to contact Vinshines audio and been waiting what they say. If short cable is a must, I may give it up.


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 31, 2021)

@Jacky5555 I will be interested to hear what Alvin at Vinshine says.  My experience was Denafrips Gaia to Denafrips Terminator Plus.  It is possible you may not encounter issues going from Gaia to your Nagra DAC.

The other thing I forgot to mention- I was using a 1-meter Sablon 2020 Ethernet cable. It worked fine for some period of time (I think it was at least a week or so?), and then the static noise crept in and went from subtle to louder.  I didn't experiment much after that and went with HDMI.  I probably should have experimented a bit but because HDMI was a possibility I didn't.

I have encountered some similar (minor) static issues with using "audiophile" HDMI cables in my other audio system.  No issues at all when using a generic HDMI.

Later I experimented more with my audiophile HDMI cables and eventually I solved the static problem.  Once by playing with pinout settings and one other time by just powering off the DAC and DDC.  Some "audiophile" HDMI cables are more prone to issues than generic ones.


----------



## sajunky

In addition to what @BlakeT says, I want to add that there are I2S to HDMI converters like this and in reverse. I can't comment on this particular device, I think it should draw a power from somewhere, otherwise a passive conversion is useless. If you find a device with an active conversion, it will allow a longer HDMI cable. Still a distance is an issue, the optimal HDMI cable lenght is 0.5m. If your system is a high transparency, you should target such lenght. It also matches an optimum placement of a DDC, it should be as close as possible to a DAC.

If your source is at a distance, I would suggest a network streamer. With a good streamer (taking care of ground loops noise) you don't really need DDC. Feed your DAC from USB, it feature asynchronous USB transfers (a custom design based on the Amanero chip).


----------



## shafat777

Does anyone know if its possible to connect two dacs to the Hermes simultaneously? Right now I have the hermes hooked up to my Pontus 2 using I2S and was wondering if i can use then AES output of the Hermes to connect to another dac like BF2 or Yggy? 

Thanks


----------



## alvin1118

Absolutely. 
The digital outputs are active simultaneously. You may connect multiple DACs to the DENAFRIPS DDC.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

alvin1118 said:


> Absolutely.
> The digital outputs are active simultaneously. You may connect multiple DACs to the DENAFRIPS DDC.


I was using my IRIS today to feed two DACs: XLR to AudioByte BlackDragon to MartinLogan 700 subwoofer, and Coax adapted to BNC to Emperical Sychro-Mesh to Audial Aya 3 to Emerald Physics EP-100.2 SE to Dahlquist DQ-20i phased array speakers. It was loud and engaging and resolved.


----------



## simon740

alvin1118 said:


> Absolutely.
> The digital outputs are active simultaneously. You may connect multiple DACs to the DENAFRIPS DDC.


I have a Node 2021...so I must buy Hermes for spdif INPUT and than go from Hermes to Spdif input on my Ares II ? Hmm... 
Maybe Node 2021 will be updated soon, so I can try USB out ...then Iris will be enough.

regards,
Simon


----------



## CAJames

simon740 said:


> I have a Node 2021...so I must buy Hermes for spdif INPUT and than go from Hermes to Spdif input on my Ares II ? Hmm...
> Maybe Node 2021 will be updated soon, so I can try USB out ...then Iris will be enough.
> 
> regards,
> Simon



JMO but I would consider upgrading your DAC to one with I2S input before spending money on a DDC.


----------



## shafat777

alvin1118 said:


> Absolutely.
> The digital outputs are active simultaneously. You may connect multiple DACs to the DENAFRIPS DDC.


Thanks @alvin1118 for the clarification. For future reference, if i want to connnect another dac besides my pontus II (I2S) to the Hermes, such as a YGGDRASIL using the AES, you think it would work? Does the Hermes add any coloration to the sound? Its magical when i use it with my Pontus II but was wondering if it would modify the sound anymore other than just making everything clean and clear. 

Thank you


----------



## Symbiose

Hi guys

Does Gaia I²S HDMI output compatible with Gustard X16 I²S HDMI input?


----------



## ShaolinGrump (Sep 14, 2021)

Symbiose said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Does Gaia I²S HDMI output compatible with Gustard X16 I²S HDMI input?


https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/08/01/denafrips-gaia-ddc-terminator-plus-dac

terminator plus has a setup mode to re-configure the i2S pinout. I don’t know if there is a way to adjust the Gaia in the same way. Gustard has opposite polarity on HDMI pins 1, 3, 7 and 9, I think.


----------



## koso

ShaolinGrump said:


> https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/08/01/denafrips-gaia-ddc-terminator-plus-dac
> 
> terminator plus has a setup mode to re-configure the i2S pinout. I don’t know if there is a way to adjust the Gaia in the same way. Gustard has opposite polarity on HDMI pins 1, 3, 7 and 9, I think.


On newest firmware you can setup I2S pinout on Gaia too.


----------



## Symbiose

koso said:


> On newest firmware you can setup I2S pinout on Gaia too.


So, I could setup I2S pinout on Gaia to made it compatible with Gustard.


----------



## koso

Symbiose said:


> So, I could setup I2S pinout on Gaia to made it compatible with Gustard.


Exactly


----------



## Symbiose

I have a AES/EBU digital cable, does anyone here tried to connect denafrips ddc to a dac with aes/ebu cable? I dont know if i2s hdmi is better than aes/ebu or not, I know that i2s hdmi support 192khz+ and dsd, but my audio files doesn't exceed 192khz and I dont use dsd either, so if aes/ebu have the same SQ I will use the cable that I have.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

I use AES from Denafrips IRIS to AudioByte Black Dragon DAC.  It sounds a little more open than RCA S/PDIF between those devices.  I have a custom i2S HDMI coming that cross-connects the 1, 3, 7 and 9 pins.  I hope the Black Dragon can hear the IRIS with the new cable.

How much difference you'll hear with AES depends on your ears and your chain from the source and after your DDC, including sensitivity to power routing and inputs.


----------



## BlakeT (Sep 15, 2021)

@Symbiose - it will depend on your DAC.  There may be exceptions, but for all the DAC's I've owned from various manufacturers over the years (perhaps a couple dozen at this point), each input on the DAC will have different sonic characteristics and as a general rule for me personally, I've found that I've preferred AES/EBU, that is, until I started getting DAC's with I2S input. 

Now, I2S is my favored input in terms of sonics.  Your results may vary.  But to answer your question more precisely, I doubt that the sound going from your Denafrips DDC to your DAC via AES/EBU input as compared to I2S will sound the same.  I'd get a relatively cheap HDMI cable (buy used for this experiment if you can, that way you can sell it for about the same price you bought it for if you decide to sell it) and compare and see if you can hear any difference and if so, then you can decide what connection method you prefer in terms of your sonic preferences and gear matching.


----------



## koso (Sep 16, 2021)

*Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC review*
_(& comparison with Denafrips Venus II)_

*INTRODUCTION*
Everything you will find in the following review applies to my own stereo setup in my listening area and pair of my own ears. I have not tested these dacs on any other setup and it is possible that the results of the comparison may be different in another setup or/and in another listening space.

Here is my setup:
_4x4m acoustically treated room
Power filter: Shunyata Hydra Triton v1
Source: Aurender N100H streamer via internal HDD library 
DAC: Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE, Denafrips Venus II
DDC: Denafrips Gaia, Matrix Audio X-Spdif 2
Amp: Simaudio Moon 600i
Speakers: Diapason Adamantes III 25th
Cabling: Siltech Classic Anniversary_






*HOLO AUDIO SPRING 3 KTE*
I like appearance of Spring 3 a lot. Great build quality, nice, not too big but heavy, all metal chassis. Decent connectors on back panel, nice and responsive front buttons and display nicely readable from my listening position. Remote is also nice. The only thing I would like to change would be dedicated button for each input on remote and dimmable display (there is only on and off option).
Before I start talking about sound quality I must mention that this dac really needs quite a long time to burn in. And the difference before and after burn in is in my opinion a big one. I let it burn for 500 hours with continuous 24/7 signal from the streamer, which consisted of playlist with the same amount of  frequencies based on 44.1 and 48KHz. Differences during burn in process were most notable in bass region (from “no bass” to “great bass”). For better understanding of specific burn in progress of Spring 3 I created following graph.





After 500 hours of burn in I began with listening to each input except for optical (I have no decent optical cable). Inputs are definitely not equal in sound quality. Spdif Coaxial is good, same with AES/EBU. I2S is quite better than both Spdif, but for my surprise, in my current setup best sounding input is USB (directly connected with streamer).
As my streamer is USB output only, other inputs were tested using Gaia or X-Spdif 2 DDC. Unfortunately I am still not able to test I2S input via I2S output from Gaia, because, as I already mentioned in previous post, none of four Springs I2S pinouts are compatible with Gaia. There is I2S pinout function on Gaia with newest firmware, but I am still unable to flash this firmware to my unit and still resolving this issue with Vinshine Audio. So for testing of I2S input I used X-Spdif 2 DDC, which is pity, because Gaia is far better sounding DDC.
From the moment I realized USB is best sounding input (for now) I have further tested and compared Spring 3 using only this input.
EDIT: PLL function on Spring 3 was enabled all the time during test.

Spring 3 KTE sounds really good. Very good dynamics with great details and nice soundstage. No region is emphasized. Separation of individual instruments and voices is exceptional. Voices are very real and very tightly focused. Sound character is right in the middle between analytic and euphonic. But in my opinion this focus on neutral sound character goes sometimes little bit against overall fluidity of sound as whole. There is no apparent flaw in sound quality, yet in my setup I still feel like I'm missing a little bit of smoothness. Which allegedly was not the case with previous model Spring 2. But I have not compared the two in my setup, so this is just a guess. See more detailed explanation of this in following comparison.

*COMPARISON WITH DENAFRIPS VENUS II*
Denafrips Venus II is exactly in the same price and quality range as Spring 3 KTE. You can consider these two as direct competitors. And indeed, in many areas these two DACs are surprisingly close in sound quality. All comparison was made in NOS mode on both devices (I have to mention I don’t care if Venus II is “true” NOS or not).
Firstly I will name the areas and characteristics which are almost the same on both:
-great dynamics and punch
-rich harmonics
-very good and similar sized soundstage (little bit wider on Venus II)
-great timing (Spring 3 little bit quicker)
-very good detail retrieval
-VERY realistic rendering of human voices
-no sign of brightness or dryness on highs

And now I'll try to explain the differences. Venus II is definitely smoother and overall sound is more fluid. At first I thought it was caused by over emphasize lower midrange and mid-bass region on Venus side. But after long listening session (and dozen switching between Spring 3 to Venus II with the same music material) I realized that it is not the case here. The amount of bass, mid-bass and low midrange is the same on both DACs, but bodies of acoustic instruments (double bass, violin, Spanish guitar) and human voices are bigger and fuller on Venus II. On the other hand same instruments and voices on Spring 3 are in better focus. So maybe more focused individual instruments (may be even too focused) and voices lead to lack of overall smoothness. On more complex recordings this is not apparent after first listening, but on recordings where there is only one or two acoustic instrument (solo double bass for example) Venus II sounds full bodied, filling all listening place, while Spring 3 sound little bit thin, but with better pinpoint location of instruments.
So this effect gives Venus II noticeable more amount of sweetness, but at the same time little bit less of transparency.

*CONCLUSION*
There is no clear winner between Spring 3 and Venus II. Both are excellent DACs. Venus II is more full bodied and sweet sounding, but never too sweet (as for example my previous DAC Simaudio Moon 380D was). On the other hand Spring 3 is bit more transparent, which is very useful quality for future changes of any gear in your setup. Another advantage of Spring 3 is fabulous USB input, so there is no need to use DDC. Both DACs share many great sound characteristic and differences are not big enough to name the winner.
All this of course, as I wrote at the beginning, could be system dependent, because amplification, speakers and not least - listening room plays a big role in final quality and character of sound.


----------



## BlakeT

@koso - excellent review!  Thanks for taking the time to write this and for all the details of the sonic characteristics.


----------



## sajunky (Sep 15, 2021)

I like this review too. Just adding a note that Holo DACs are also not NOS, there is heavy on-board processing with use FIR filtering and scrambling (randomising ladder linearity errors). It is why Springs sounds more thin with artificial transparency like in Delta-Sigma DACs. It can be good for some type of music where details of dominant tones are more important to anything that happens in the background, i.e. EDM.

As both DACs are not true NOS, I suggest another series of tests with upsampling on the PC using HQPlayer to a frequency 705.6/768kHz (depending on the source based on 44.1 or 48kHz). This is a frequency Denafrips is upsampling a source material in both official OS and so called NOS mode. It allows to bypass most of internal processing on Venus, not sure about Springs. Tests would show.


----------



## dcguy73 (Sep 15, 2021)

I switched out the Gaia from my system and in its place I put the Euphony Audio Summus Endpoint with a galvanically-isolated I2S output.

So instead of my chain being Euphony Summus Server  (via USB) —> Gaia (via I2S) —> Terminator Plus, it’s
Euphony Summus Server (via Ethernet) —> Summus Endpoint (via I2S) —> Terminator Plus.

This setup removes a USB connection and the Gaia reclocking and the Terminator Plus clock output from the equation.

It’s not as intense or as quick or as focused of a sound but it is a little richer in timbre and more analogue-sounding. Easier on the ear, especially with my HE-1000SE. 

I also took the upgraded power cable I was using on the Gaia and moved it to the Terminator Plus, so that may also have had an effect.

More observations to come.


----------



## S Crowther

sajunky said:


> I like this review too. Just adding a note that Holo DACs are also not NOS, there is heavy on-board processing with use FIR filtering and scrambling (randomising ladder linearity errors). It is why Springs sounds more thin with artificial transparency like in Delta-Sigma DACs. It can be good for some type of music where details of dominant tones are more important to anything that happens in the background, i.e. EDM.
> 
> As both DACs are not true NOS, I suggest another series of tests with upsampling on the PC using HQPlayer to a frequency 705.6/768kHz (depending on the source based on 44.1 or 48kHz). This is a frequency Denafrips is upsampling a source material in both official OS and so called NOS mode. It allows to bypass most of internal processing on Venus, not sure about Springs. Tests would show.


Is this upsampling in NOS mode the same for Terminator/Terminator Plus?


----------



## sajunky

S Crowther said:


> Is this upsampling in NOS mode the same for Terminator/Terminator Plus?


Yip. It is a linear interpolation 16 times OS maximum. It was reported on this forum about Ares II (which I opposed initially) and found later a similar investigation for Terminator on the other forum.


----------



## dcguy73 (Sep 16, 2021)

sajunky said:


> Yip. It is a linear interpolation 16 times OS maximum. It was reported on this forum about Ares II (which I opposed initially) and found later a similar investigation for Terminator on the other forum.


Lots more details about this on the Audiophile Style (formerly Computer Audiophile) forum. Regardless of what’s going on behind the scenes, I love the sound of my Terminator Plus DAC. 

I do not hear “thinness with artificial transparency” with the Terminator Plus, as per your comment and the review above on the Holo Audio Spring v3. I haven’t heard the Spring v3, but I own v1 of that DAC.

Certainly if “thinness” is inherent to the sound of the source or the DAC, adding the Gaia to the chain is not going to help in that regard. It’s just going to magnify that aspect. The Gaia is not a forgiving DDC.

The Rockna Wavelight I previously owned comes in a close second place to the Terminator in my mind.


----------



## sajunky

dcguy73 said:


> I do not hear “*thinness with artificial transparency*” with the Terminator Plus, as per your comment and the review above on the Holo Audio Spring v3. I haven’t heard the Spring v3, but I own v1 of that DAC.
> 
> Certainly if “thinness” is inherent to the sound of the source or the DAC, adding the Gaia to the chain is not going to help in that regard. It’s just going to magnify that aspect. The Gaia is not a forgiving DDC.


Of course, Terminator sound cannot be characterised by a 'thinness', it was refered to a Springs and I also hear it from other sources. Holo DACs are different kind of things, focusing on best measurements. Of course, DDC is not able to change such sound characteristic. Denafrips design philosophy is different and sound is more like a typical R2R DAC. Little bit to smooth when comparing with other R2R designs, however differences are subtle. Very good Denafrips sound analysis is given in this review when comparing with Venus.


----------



## shafat777

Anyone using iris or hermes.ddc with schiit yggdrasil. I got my yggy last night and Hooked it up to my Hermes ddc using aes but the yggy amp won't stop clicking (relay) once everything is turned off (my PC connected to Hermes via USB). Can anyone plz help me ?

Thanks


----------



## S Crowther

shafat777 said:


> Anyone using iris or hermes.ddc with schiit yggdrasil. I got my yggy last night and Hooked it up to my Hermes ddc using aes but the yggy amp won't stop clicking (relay) once everything is turned off (my PC connected to Hermes via USB). Can anyone plz help me ?
> 
> Thanks


Suggest you email Alvin at Vinshine Audio. He can help you.


----------



## Ichos

I have a Gaia loaner for a review.
Allo Digione Signature->Gaia->I2S->Venus II , I am pretty speechless....


----------



## centuriones

Hi guys, I wanted to share my experience with the Pontus II and the DDC IRIS.
I wanted to listen to the reviews about the Pontus II - Iris pairing and I must say that, by connecting the two devices with i2s, the difference is considerable. Everything is more focused, better details, deep and intelligible dry bass, clearer mids and wonderful highs.
The pontus has made a significant leap in quality, I am extremely happy.
Highly recommended as long as you connect with i2s.


----------



## cglin222

Hi, experts, I am thinking of Venus ii or Pontus ii + Gaia. 
Will Pii + Gaia = Venus II ? and Will Vii + Gaia be better than Pii + Gaia?


----------



## cglin222

cglin222 said:


> Hi, experts, I am thinking of Venus ii or Pontus ii + Gaia.
> Will Pii + Gaia = Venus II ? and Will Vii + Gaia be better than Pii + Gaia?


Or maybe Hermes in place of Gaia? Not sure which combo strikes value / performance in turns of sound improvment?


----------



## simon740

Hello,

anyone here use Iris DDC with Ares II?

regards,
Simon


----------



## twiceboss

Hi everyone.

A bit out of headfi topic but should be the same thing as source. (Hifi related)

I currently have: mi box s>topping d70s>smsl da9>triangle br03.

I'm planning to get the Iris to add to the system as i think the mi box bottleneck the overall system. Unfortunately, i do need a streamer like mi box which can play netflix YouTube etc together with music. Though mi box seems a bit bottlenecking and it also upsample everything to 96khz via USB.

Will i improve the SQ wise with Iris?
Mi box s>denafrips iris>topping d70s>smsl da9>triangle br03


----------



## rreynolds

Ichos said:


> I have a Gaia loaner for a review.
> Allo Digione Signature->Gaia->I2S->Venus II , I am pretty speechless....


Tempted to purchase a Gaia before Vinshine Audio raises the price of their products. Currently have a Venus II & Burson Soloist GT amp. After watching Hans Beekhuyzens review, the temptation is worse now lol. May just give myself an early Christmas present.


----------



## CAJames

It is a nice upgrade, and you might as well get it before the price goes up....


----------



## dakchi

Hi
I am interested to purchase an IRIS to improve the signal into my Ares. However. IRIS has only a USB input which is a problem because I am using Bluesound node 2i as a streamer. Is there any solution?
Thanks


----------



## Ichos

rreynolds said:


> Tempted to purchase a Gaia before Vinshine Audio raises the price of their products. Currently have a Venus II & Burson Soloist GT amp. After watching Hans Beekhuyzens review, the temptation is worse now lol. May just give myself an early Christmas present.


Bad news, they have already raised their prices.
You have a few days left to place your order.
https://www.vinshineaudio.com/so/a6NrpdUAZ#/main


----------



## CAJames (Dec 5, 2021)

dakchi said:


> Hi
> I am interested to purchase an IRIS to improve the signal into my Ares. However. IRIS has only a USB input which is a problem because I am using Bluesound node 2i as a streamer. Is there any solution?
> Thanks



Yes, spend more money. 

But seriously, IMO you would be better off spending money on moving up to a better Denafrips DAC then getting a DDC at this point. If you want a DDC you should have a DAC with I2S input.


----------



## dakchi

CAJames said:


> Yes, spend more money.
> 
> But seriously, IMO you would be better off spending money on moving up to a better Denafrips DAC then getting a DDC at this point. If you want a DDC you should have a DAC with I2S input.


Ok, but if I assume that I have a Pontus, how can I connect the node 2i to an Iris? Gaia is way too expensive for me


----------



## CAJames (Dec 5, 2021)

If you have a Pontus maybe you aren't in as big a hurry to upgrade. And if you do I suggest a Hermes rather than a Gaia. But, this is just my opinion. As you say, you don't really have a good option now except to convert the Node coax output to USB and then connect the Iris to Ares with e.g. AES/EBU. Which seems like a lot of work (and money) for small payoff in SQ. Or get a different steamer with USB output.


----------



## rreynolds

CAJames said:


> It is a nice upgrade, and you might as well get it before the price goes up....


Just purchased one on US AudioMart used, along w/ a Tubulus Concentus i2s cable. Managed to stay below a retail Gaia from Vinshine. Can’t wait to share impressions once it arrives.


----------



## cglin222

What is that aether master clock in the new price list? Don’t see anything on their website


----------



## CAJames (Dec 8, 2021)

cglin222 said:


> What is that aether master clock in the new price list? Don’t see anything on their website



I assume an upgraded Terra.


----------



## CAJames

NM


----------



## rreynolds

Just received the Gaia & i2s. Will plug in tonight & hopefully provide noticeable feedback. Pairing w/ a Venus II & Burson Soloist 3X GT.


----------



## BlakeT

rreynolds said:


> Just received the Gaia & i2s. Will plug in tonight & hopefully provide noticeable feedback. Pairing w/ a Venus II & Burson Soloist 3X GT.


 
I'm using the Gaia and Tubulus in one of my systems with TPlus.  Great combo.  That Tubulus cable provides some heft and body- good tone.


----------



## Ichos

rreynolds said:


> Just received the Gaia & i2s. Will plug in tonight & hopefully provide noticeable feedback. Pairing w/ a Venus II & Burson Soloist 3X GT.


You are going to enjoy it very much.
It adds that last touch of refinement.


----------



## rreynolds

Ichos said:


> You are going to enjoy it very much.
> It adds that last touch of refinement.


To be honest, I wasn't prepared for how big of a difference it would make. Bass reproduction has changed the most, defined, engaging, and whole. Listening to modern pop is intoxicating. Threw some artists on I normally don't listen to, like Doja Cat and Dua Lipa. Crystal clear vocal reproduction and no sibilance.


----------



## Ichos

rreynolds said:


> To be honest, I wasn't prepared for how big of a difference it would make. Bass reproduction has changed the most, defined, engaging, and whole. Listening to modern pop is intoxicating. Threw some artists on I normally don't listen to, like Doja Cat and Dua Lipa. Crystal clear vocal reproduction and no sibilance.


Your impressions are in line with my own when I tested it with the Venus II.


----------



## S Crowther

I see there is a firmware update.


----------



## CAJames

Yes. I applied to my Gaia a couple days ago and (so far) seems like it has in fact made the USB connection more reliable. Maybe even improved the sound quality. I would recommend installing it.


----------



## kimdeug (Dec 24, 2021)

New Baby in the house Denafrips Gaia and Pontus II.

Have not done the software update yet.
But already I am very impressed with quality upgrade feeding Pioneer -U5 (AES/EBU), Oppo HA1 (AES/EBU) and Burson Conductor 2+(Coax)
All 3 have internal DACs.
Pontus II connected via I2S HDMI and feeding Cayin HA-6A via XLR
Right Oppo HA1 (Optical connect form Gaia and feeding LaFigaro 339)

Merry Christmas!!!!!

Regards from New Zealand
Kim


----------



## S Crowther

kimdeug said:


> New Baby in the house Denafrips Gaia and Pontus II.
> 
> Have not done the software update yet.
> But already I am very impressed with quality upgrade feeding Pioneer -U5 (AES/EBU), Oppo HA1 (AES/EBU) and Burson Conductor 2+(Coax)
> ...


You just need an Artemis to complete the set.


----------



## Ichos

kimdeug said:


> New Baby in the house Denafrips Gaia and Pontus II.
> 
> Have not done the software update yet.
> But already I am very impressed with quality upgrade feeding Pioneer -U5 (AES/EBU), Oppo HA1 (AES/EBU) and Burson Conductor 2+(Coax)
> ...


Merry Christmas 🎄
Nice set up you have there!


----------



## 471724

I'm considering getting the Iris digital to digital converter. My USB source is a Galaxy S4 tablet running the UAPP high-end USB app. In the configuration I'm using it in it outputs 16-bit 44.1 kHz PCM. Will the Iris work with this USB input? The reason I ask is that the Iris PCM specifications say 24 bits.


----------



## CAJames

Yes it will work with 16/44 input. 24 bit means with will work with word lengths up to 24 bits.


----------



## Mike-WI

kimdeug said:


> New Baby in the house Denafrips Gaia and Pontus II.
> 
> Have not done the software update yet.
> But already I am very impressed with quality upgrade feeding Pioneer -U5 (AES/EBU), Oppo HA1 (AES/EBU) and Burson Conductor 2+(Coax)
> ...


Very nice.

I like the Pioneer (and Burson) lack of knob near the (XLR, etc) headphone plug ins.
Why two Oppos?


----------



## 471724 (Jan 1, 2022)

I'm getting a Denafrips Iris digital to digital converter for conversion of my source USB to AES/EBU into my Yggy DAC. The Iris will sit right on top of the Yggy, so the minimum AES/EBU cable length physically needed is only 15" or a little less. Has anybody experimented with different lengths of AES or SPDIF coaxial digital cable? The received "expert" opinion on this is that this cable needs to be a minimum of 5 ft. or so as to minimize timing jitter due to internal reflections. So the claim is that a long cable is still needed even for a very short physical digital interface. I would think that the reduction in timing jitter would be a tradeoff against the corresponding increase in other distortions due to the longer cable length such as increased total distortion due to imperfect dielectric, conductor composition, form, finish and dimensions, etc.


----------



## CAJames

quadels said:


> The received "expert" opinion on this is that this cable needs to be a minimum of 5 ft. or so as to minimize timing jitter due to internal reflections.



I've heard that too. Also FWIW a similar thing regarding fiber optic network cables (my day job, sort of). But I've never noticed any problems in practice with digital cables, although I wouldn't buy one shorter than 2 feet or .75 meters.


----------



## Mike-WI

quadels said:


> I'm getting a Denafrips Iris digital to digital converter for conversion of my source USB to AES/EBU into my Yggy DAC. The Iris will sit right on top of the Yggy, so the minimum AES/EBU cable length physically needed is only 15" or a little less. Has anybody experimented with different lengths of AES or SPDIF coaxial digital cable? The received "expert" opinion on this is that this cable needs to be a minimum of 5 ft. or so as to minimize timing jitter due to internal reflections. So the claim is that a long cable is still needed even for a very short physical digital interface. I would think that the reduction in timing jitter would be a tradeoff against the corresponding increase in other distortions due to the longer cable length such as increased total distortion due to imperfect dielectric, conductor composition, form, finish and dimensions, etc.


I have no idea, but in the video world (eg Lumagen and HDMI to projectors) the length of HDMI cables should be more than 3 or 6 feet.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

I don’t think length matters for SPDIF and AES signals. I’ve heard talk about USB length. Either as short as possible or based on optimal segment length, like 1-2m or whatever the theories are.


----------



## CAJames

I guess I would look at it this way: for the same amount of money I think you are better off with a shorter higher quality cable rather than an "optimal length" cable that is lower quality.


----------



## kimdeug

Mike-WI said:


> Very nice.
> 
> I like the Pioneer (and Burson) lack of knob near the (XLR, etc) headphone plug ins.
> Why two Oppos?


Love Oppo HA-1 so much, actually I have 3 of them (one is black) )


----------



## rreynolds

Have always loved the look of Denafrips’s black aluminum products. The BIC500 would fit perfect at the bottom. 👀


----------



## devilboy

Ok, can someone please, PLEASE help me out here...
I contacted Vineshine and they basically gave me no help. I've asked this on two other forums and got no answers. I think you guys are my last hope...

I received my new Hermes yesterday and when I feed it a USB signal, it doesn't send anything via either coax or optical. These are my only two options at the moment because I'm currently waiting for my i2s cable which terminated in RJ45 because that's what my DAC accepts.

I have a Mac which Denafrips says no driver is required. I believe the handshake between my Mac and the Hermes is good because on my "system preferences" screen, it shows Denafrips Hermes USB v3.12. 
However, with the only other two cables I have to use which are coax and optical, the signal doesn't go to my DAC which is a Sonnet Morpheus. When the Morpheus doesn't receive a signal on chosen input, the screen reads, "No Data" and this is what is shown every time I select either optical or coax depending on the cable being used at that time.

So, if the handshake is happening between the computer and Hermes, then why isn't the Hermes outputting a signal to my DAC? I would understand that maybe the pin arrangement isn't correct if I was using i2s but this is with coax and/or optical.  So what's going on here.

I'm losing my mind.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

devilboy said:


> Ok, can someone please, PLEASE help me out here...
> I contacted Vineshine and they basically gave me no help. I've asked this on two other forums and got no answers. I think you guys are my last hope...
> 
> I received my new Hermes yesterday and when I feed it a USB signal, it doesn't send anything via either coax or optical. These are my only two options at the moment because I'm currently waiting for my i2s cable which terminated in RJ45 because that's what my DAC accepts.
> ...


have you checked MIDI settings on the Mac?  Sometimes weird things happen there, like volume is off.  Always try different power up sequences too.  DAC on, then reboot Mac is my suggestion.


----------



## devilboy

ShaolinGrump said:


> have you checked MIDI settings on the Mac?  Sometimes weird things happen there, like volume is off.  Always try different power up sequences too.  DAC on, then reboot Mac is my suggestion.


!!!!! YOU ARE THE BEST!!!!!

Yes, it was a Midi issue. For some reason, when connecting to the Denafrips Hermes, the  Midi changed to 1.563 MHz or 1563000 Hz. I had to select 44100 and then BAMM! Music.
I just have to wait for my i2s cable but the problem is fixed.

I can't thank you enough. Thank God for these forums.
I'm going to open a bottle of wine now and toast you.


----------



## ShaolinGrump

devilboy said:


> !!!!! YOU ARE THE BEST!!!!!
> 
> Yes, it was a Midi issue. For some reason, when connecting to the Denafrips Hermes, the  Midi changed to 1.563 MHz or 1563000 Hz. I had to select 44100 and then BAMM! Music.
> I just have to wait for my i2s cable but the problem is fixed.
> ...


You can move the MIDI up now until you lose signal.  Then step one down.


----------



## devilboy

ShaolinGrump said:


> You can move the MIDI up now until you lose signal.  Then step one down.


Even though all of my music is 44.1?
I have no hirez music. Everything is rebook and my DAC is NOS


----------



## ShaolinGrump

devilboy said:


> Even though all of my music is 44.1?
> I have no hirez music. Everything is rebook and my DAC is NOS


Yes.  I think of it as digital headroom.  My IRIS is set at 768K for all component sources that don't cut out lower.


----------



## shwnwllms

rreynolds said:


> Have always loved the look of Denafrips’s black aluminum products. The BIC500 would fit perfect at the bottom. 👀


I was on the fence for a bit but after seeing your post I’m glad I ordered my Pontus II in black. Sick setup.


----------



## devilboy

My system is silver so the black Hermes makes me a little uncomfortable. 
All silver or all black... No mixing.


----------



## sajunky

devilboy said:


> Even though all of my music is 44.1?
> I have no hirez music. Everything is rebook and my DAC is NOS


Not. This is a fine NOS DAC, it will play the best with a native sample rate.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

ShaolinGrump said:


> I don’t think length matters for SPDIF and AES signals. I’ve heard talk about USB length. Either as short as possible or based on optimal segment length, like 1-2m or whatever the theories are.


You can do long cable runs with AES/EBU, but not with S/PDIF.


----------



## 471724

ShaolinGrump said:


> I don’t think length matters for SPDIF and AES signals. I’ve heard talk about USB length. Either as short as possible or based on optimal segment length, like 1-2m or whatever the theories are.



I disagree. My experience using AES/EBU is that the absolute best sound is with a very short cable, just barely long enough to reach from the source to the DAC. In my case from a Denafrips Iris digital-digital converter to the DAC it is sitting on (Yggdrasil), about 7 inches. The sound is very much clearer than with a 2m cable which supposedly has a minimum of jitter due to internal reflections.


----------



## devilboy

quadels said:


> I disagree. My experience using AES/EBU is that the absolute best sound is with a very short cable, just barely long enough to reach from the source to the DAC. In my case from a Denafrips Iris digital-digital converter to the DAC it is sitting on (Yggdrasil), about 7 inches. The sound is very much clearer than with a 2m cable which supposedly has a minimum of jitter due to internal reflections.


This makes the most sense to me. However, over the years it's been listed everywhere that digital cables need to be 1.5 m in length. I always thought this was nonsense and the person giving their reasons would give this convoluted, stretched out, word salad of reasons that it needs to be that length. However, the common consensus for i2s is that it needs to be as short as possible. Regarding other digital cable types, I've read for years that it needs to be 1.5 m because of certain physics that are happening inside the cable at shorter length. Somebody please try to defend that argument because it seems so ridiculous to me.


----------



## devilboy

Forgot pics of new Hermes.


----------



## sajunky

devilboy said:


> Regarding other digital cable types, I've read for years that it needs to be 1.5 m because of certain physics that are happening inside the cable at shorter length.


The only things can call for longer length is a bending factor. If to short, radius can be smaller than a minimum allowed (it must turn 180 degrees), changing properties of the dielectric, so the cable. In all cases impedance matters the most: Transmitters, connectors, plugs, cable and receivers. Other parameters are less important on short distances.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

devilboy said:


> This makes the most sense to me. However, over the years it's been listed everywhere that digital cables need to be 1.5 m in length. I always thought this was nonsense and the person giving their reasons would give this convoluted, stretched out, word salad of reasons that it needs to be that length. However, the common consensus for i2s is that it needs to be as short as possible. Regarding other digital cable types, I've read for years that it needs to be 1.5 m because of certain physics that are happening inside the cable at shorter length. Somebody please try to defend that argument because it seems so ridiculous to me.


Of course the shortest cable that fits your requirements is theoretically better than a longer one.

The specifications and standards for AES/EBU, coaxial S/PDIF, optical S/PDIF, and USB specify maximum lengths that compliant devices should expect to work with.

As far IIS/I2S I think it was designed to connect components on the same board and was never expected (hahaha) to be used to connect physically separate devices.


----------



## devilboy

sajunky said:


> The only things can call for longer length is a bending factor. If to short, radius can be smaller than a minimum allowed (it must turn 180 degrees), changing properties of the dielectric, so the cable. In all cases impedance matters the most: Transmitters, connectors, plugs, cable and receivers. Other parameters are less important on short distances.





gimmeheadroom said:


> Of course the shortest cable that fits your requirements is theoretically better than a longer one.
> 
> The specifications and standards for AES/EBU, coaxial S/PDIF, optical S/PDIF, and USB specify maximum lengths that compliant devices should expect to work with.
> 
> As far IIS/I2S I think it was designed to connect components on the same board and was never expected (hahaha) to be used to connect physically separate devices.


Two good points.


----------



## 471724 (Feb 17, 2022)

devilboy said:


> This makes the most sense to me. However, over the years it's been listed everywhere that digital cables need to be 1.5 m in length. I always thought this was nonsense and the person giving their reasons would give this convoluted, stretched out, word salad of reasons that it needs to be that length. However, the common consensus for i2s is that it needs to be as short as possible. Regarding other digital cable types, I've read for years that it needs to be 1.5 m because of certain physics that are happening inside the cable at shorter length. Somebody please try to defend that argument because it seems so ridiculous to me.



I think that the key to this is that digital cable lengths do matter a lot, but only after after the first few inches. In my experience with several different brands, for SPDIF, AES and USB a 2m or 1.5m cable sounds considerably better than a 1m, and this is almost certainly because of the internal reflection-caused timing jitter issue described by a lot of experts. This phenomenon appears to basically be that an impedance mismatch at the destination or receiver end of the cable (the DAC) causes a reflection of the digital pulse to propagate back along the cable to the source end, where similarly, an impedance mismatch causes another, delayed, reflection back to the destination DAC. At the DAC's receiver the pulse leading edge as detected by the DAC becomes in effect blurred or smeared or stretched out in time by these received delayed lower amplitude reflected pulses, with a resulting timing error. Cumulatively over many pulses this is called timing jitter. The relationship of this timing jitter to the bit to bit and word to word PCM pulse timing is a function of the impedance mismatch and the cable length and corresponding reflection delay time, resulting in the observed superiority of cables of 1.5m and 2m and more.

Of course it really is a tradeoff, since longer cables inherently degrade the signal due to other phenomena. It's just that the ear is inordinately sensitive to this particular form of distortion in digital systems.

It appears that this phenomenon goes away for very short lengths (like my short AES/EBU cable), where the internal reflections are of such short delays that the issue seems not to apply, I'm sure for reasons understandable from the physics of the interface.


----------



## devilboy

quadels said:


> I think that the key to this is that digital cable lengths do matter a lot, but only after after the first few inches. In my experience with several different brands, for SPDIF, AES and USB a 2m or 1.5m cable sounds considerably better than a 1m, and this is almost certainly because of the internal reflection-caused timing jitter issue described by a lot of experts. This phenomenon appears to basically be that an impedance mismatch at the destination or receiver end of the cable (the DAC) causes a reflection of the digital pulse to propagate back along the cable to the source end, where similarly, an impedance mismatch causes another, delayed, reflection back to the destination DAC. At the DAC's receiver the pulse leading edge as detected by the DAC becomes in effect blurred or smeared or stretched out in time by these received delayed lower amplitude reflected pulses, with a resulting timing error. Cumulatively over many pulses this is called timing jitter. The relationship of this timing jitter to the bit to bit and word to word PCM pulse timing results in the observed superiority of 1.5m and 2m and more cables.
> 
> It appears that this phenomenon goes away for very short lengths (like my short AES/EBU cable), where the internal reflections are of such short delays that the issue seems not to apply, I'm sure for reasons understandable from the physics of the interface.


That's a theory that is well above my pay grade and sounds very fancy. I'm not saying that it's not correct I'm just saying I have no clue what you're talking about.

If that cable needs to be 1.5 m or 2 m, then why doesn't the wiring that leads to the outputs of the transport/DDC also need to be the same length? Why is it that at the outputs of a transport, all of a sudden, for some magical reason, the wire needs to become 1.5 m long before it hits the DAC?


----------



## 471724 (Feb 17, 2022)

devilboy said:


> That's a theory that is well above my pay grade and sounds very fancy. I'm not saying that it's not correct I'm just saying I have no clue what you're talking about.
> 
> If that cable needs to be 1.5 m or 2 m, then why doesn't the wiring that leads to the outputs of the transport/DDC also need to be the same length? Why is it that at the outputs of a transport, all of a sudden, for some magical reason, the wire needs to become 1.5 m long before it hits the DAC?



If the cable needs to be say at least 1m or so just because of the distance between components, then the system will sound better to use a 2m or so cable to mostly eliminate internal reflection-caused jitter. If the cable distance between source and DAC is much shorter (say 5-7 inches) then experience says the system with the very short digital cable sounds better even than with the 2m.

"....why doesn't the wiring that leads to the outputs of the transport/DDC also need to be the same (1.5-2m) length?"
Very short digital transmitter to digital receiver cable lengths within the transport or CD player or DDC don't seem to cause enough delays for reflections to matter much at all. Internal direct-wired cable connections between circuit boards avoid connector-caused impedance mismatches and therefore greatly reduce any reflections. Also, with very short cables the cable characteristic impedance doesn't matter much and therefore doesn't cause much of any reflection phenomena. Also, such short direct-wired connections usually don't involve a digital communication transmitter/receiver format and protocol.


----------



## devilboy

quadels said:


> If the cable needs to be say at least 1m or so just because of the distance between components, then the system will sound better to use a 2m or so cable to mostly eliminate internal reflection-caused jitter. If the cable distance between source and DAC is much shorter (say 5-7 inches) then experience says the system with the very short digital cable sounds better even than with the 2m.
> 
> "....why doesn't the wiring that leads to the outputs of the transport/DDC also need to be the same (1.5-2m) length?"
> Very short digital transmitter to digital receiver cable lengths within the transport or CD player or DDC don't seem to cause enough delays for reflections to matter much at all. Internal direct-wired cable connections between circuit boards avoid connector-caused impedance mismatches and therefore greatly reduce any reflections. Also, with very short cables the cable characteristic impedance doesn't matter much and therefore doesn't cause much of any reflection phenomena. Also, such short direct-wired connections usually don't involve a digital communication transmitter/receiver format and protocol.


Is there scientific, proven data to back this up? Or is this just theory?


----------



## devilboy

Also, are there measurements to prove this? Are there blind listening tests done on a large scale?


----------



## devilboy

With all due respect, all I'm hearing is word salad.


----------



## sajunky

devilboy said:


> Also, are there measurements to prove this? Are there blind listening tests done on a large scale?


Reflections are measured, I suggest to remove content of your next message, it seems offensive. The first reflection (after traveling twice of a cable lenght) can smear transition on the receiver when arriving exactly at the time transition is not completed, therefore shifting time a logic level is recognised. It will introduce jitter. If a lenght of the cable is longer little bit, a transition is not smeared *when a first reflection arrives after a logic level is already recognised*. I never made such calculations, so I can't confirm validity of this case. Of course there is also other critical moment at the driver side, it hapens at the half of a critical distance and everything become more complicated when cable lenght increases.


----------



## koso

devilboy said:


> Forgot pics of new Hermes.


Can you write how satisfied you are with Sonnet Morpheus and DDC Hermes combination? Do you use I2S between the two?


----------



## devilboy

koso said:


> Can you write how satisfied you are with Sonnet Morpheus and DDC Hermes combination? Do you use I2S between the two?


Not just yet.  I will explain...

The Morpheus (with my ten year old Audiophilleo 2), was fantastic, to my ears. It's my sixth  "Metrum" DAC. My previous was the Pavane L3 and the Morpheus sounds a touch more liquid and smooth with more detail!... I'm blown away.
Regarding i2s, I'm waiting on delivery of newly fabricated Cardas Clear Network cable with RJ45 terminations. This will connect the Hermes to the Morpheus. For the time being, all I have is a 25' length of optical cable lol. Don't laugh, but it's all I have.
I STILL can hear the improvements. 
More minute details emerging from a blacker background. MORE separation of instruments. It's quite remarkable what the Hermes does, IMO. I can't imagine what the i2s will be like.

Hope that helps.


----------



## koso (Feb 21, 2022)

devilboy said:


> Not just yet.  I will explain...
> 
> The Morpheus (with my ten year old Audiophilleo 2), was fantastic, to my ears. It's my sixth  "Metrum" DAC. My previous was the Pavane L3 and the Morpheus sounds a touch more liquid and smooth with more detail!... I'm blown away.
> Regarding i2s, I'm waiting on delivery of newly fabricated Cardas Clear Network cable with RJ45 terminations. This will connect the Hermes to the Morpheus. For the time being, all I have is a 25' length of optical cable lol. Don't laugh, but it's all I have.
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I've been looking for Morpheus for a long time, and since I own DDC Gaia, I wanted to know if that is still good match. I have the experience that Gaia has always been a sound improvement, no matter what DAC is connected to.
The question is if Morpheus is better DAC than my current Holo Spring 3 KTE, which is better than my previous DAC Denafrips Venus II, but not by much. However, I dont know anyone who directly compared Spring 3 to Morpheus.


----------



## devilboy

koso said:


> Thanks for the reply. I've been looking for Morpheos for a long time, and since I own DDC Gaia, I wanted to know if that is still good match. I have the experience that Gaia has always been a sound improvement, no matter what DAC is connected to.
> The question is if Morpheus is better DAC than my current Holo Spring 3 KTE, which is better than my previous DAC Denafrips Venus II, but not by much. However, I dont know anyone who directly compared Spring 3 to Morpheus.


Wow. I've never heard the Holo Spring 3 KTE. I only know it by reputation and everything I've heard about it is phenomenal. Unfortunately I have no comparison. From what I understand, your DAC will give stiff competition to most anything out there.
Please let us know.


----------



## devilboy

Has anyone experienced any crackling or popping sounds through their Denafrips DDC using i2s? 
I have no issue via coaxial output and it sounds fantastic. However, the whole reason I got it was to implement the i2s output with my i2s input on my DAC.
I just got my new RJ45 terminated i2s cable today with corresponding pin arrangement and I get severe crackling and popping sounds.
I hope just a bad cable.


----------



## koso

devilboy said:


> Has anyone experienced any crackling or popping sounds through their Denafrips DDC using i2s?
> I have no issue via coaxial output and it sounds fantastic. However, the whole reason I got it was to implement the i2s output with my i2s input on my DAC.
> I just got my new RJ45 terminated i2s cable today with corresponding pin arrangement and I get severe crackling and popping sounds.
> I hope just a bad cable.


Are you absolutely sure about cable pinout? Exactly this kind of sound produces wrong pinout. Depending on which (wrong) pinout is set, it is no sound or completely distorted sound or this kind of cracks and pops.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

devilboy said:


> Has anyone experienced any crackling or popping sounds through their Denafrips DDC using i2s?
> I have no issue via coaxial output and it sounds fantastic. However, the whole reason I got it was to implement the i2s output with my i2s input on my DAC.
> I just got my new RJ45 terminated i2s cable today with corresponding pin arrangement and I get severe crackling and popping sounds.
> I hope just a bad cable.


HDMI cables don't change to accomodate pinout differences, they have to be set on the device(s).

I don't know if this is also true of RJ45 cables.


----------



## koso

gimmeheadroom said:


> HDMI cables don't change to accomodate pinout differences, they have to be set on the device(s).
> 
> I don't know if this is also true of RJ45 cables.


I am afraid pinout function works for HDMI only.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

koso said:


> I am afraid pinout function works for HDMI only.


That's interesting. Does it mean all RJ45 cables should be custom for the devices?


----------



## ShaolinGrump

Unplug the HDMI and carefully plug it back in all the way.  That fixed the same issue for me on a different setup.


----------



## devilboy

koso said:


> Are you absolutely sure about cable pinout? Exactly this kind of sound produces wrong pinout. Depending on which (wrong) pinout is set, it is no sound or completely distorted sound or this kind of cracks and pops.


But if the pinout was incorrect wouldn't that happen consistently, all the time? You may be right I'm just throwing ideas out. I had the cable specifically made for component a going into component b. But that's not a guarantee that the person making that cable did the perfect job.


----------



## sajunky

devilboy said:


> However, the whole reason I got it was to implement the i2s output with my i2s input on my DAC.
> I just got my new RJ45 terminated i2s cable today with corresponding pin arrangement and I get severe crackling and popping sounds.


HDMI output use LVDS signaling (the same as true HDMI). Terminating the other side with RJ45 can damage LVDS drivers, as voltage levels are higher. It is why you get cracking sound. You need a voltage converter on the RJ45 DAC input.


----------



## BlakeT

devilboy said:


> Has anyone experienced any crackling or popping sounds through their Denafrips DDC using i2s?
> I have no issue via coaxial output and it sounds fantastic. However, the whole reason I got it was to implement the i2s output with my i2s input on my DAC.
> I just got my new RJ45 terminated i2s cable today with corresponding pin arrangement and I get severe crackling and popping sounds.
> I hope just a bad cable.



RJ45 sounds really, really good, but it's problematic because you must use an extremely short length if you are going to use RJ45.  

I ran Sablon 2020 RJ45 in 1 meter between my Gaia and Terminator Plus.  It worked very well (fantastic sound quality) for a little while but then after about a week I got the noise you described.  If you are going to use RJ45, Alvin recommends no longer than *15centimeters*.  I am almost positive your issues are related to your RJ45 use..  it is not the cable, but the *length of the cable* that is the issue.

15 centimeters is obviously very short and creates physical setup problems for most users.  Try a generic HDMI for I2S instead and see what happens.


----------



## mrip541

For the coax connection, will a standard 75ohm RCA-RCA cable like a Monoprice or Mogami work just fine? Doesn't need to have a classic coax connector?


----------



## devilboy

BlakeT said:


> RJ45 sounds really, really good, but it's problematic because you must use an extremely short length if you are going to use RJ45.
> 
> I ran Sablon 2020 RJ45 in 1 meter between my Gaia and Terminator Plus.  It worked very well (fantastic sound quality) for a little while but then after about a week I got the noise you described.  If you are going to use RJ45, Alvin recommends no longer than *15centimeters*.  I am almost positive your issues are related to your RJ45 use..  it is not the cable, but the *length of the cable* that is the issue.
> 
> 15 centimeters is obviously very short and creates physical setup problems for most users.  Try a generic HDMI for I2S instead and see what happens.


My DAC only has RJ45 so I'm forced to use that if I want i2s.
My Cardas Clear Network cable is 0.5m. 
The Hermes is on top on the Morpheus so technically I COULD use 15cm.
The manufacturer is sending me another identical cable which he says has been working flawlessly in his system.

DAMN RJ45. 
Why Cees?.......Wwwhhhyyy???


----------



## kumar402

devilboy said:


> My DAC only has RJ45 so I'm forced to use that if I want i2s.
> My Cardas Clear Network cable is 0.5m.
> The Hermes is on top on the Morpheus so technically I COULD use 15cm.
> The manufacturer is sending me another identical cable which he says has been working flawlessly in his system.
> ...


Metrum and Sonnet have specific pin out which your cable manufacturer should have to rewire it perfectly.


----------



## kumar402 (Feb 23, 2022)

Just check with Sonnet if this is correct and then match it with buffered I2S of your DDC


----------



## devilboy

kumar402 said:


> Just check with Sonnet if this is correct and then match it with buffered I2S of your DDC


I told the manufacturer the components I have and he said they've done that arraignment before.


----------



## BlakeT

@devilboy- oh, I just saw you have a Sonnet Morpheus.  Apologies I was thinking you had a Denafrips DAC for some reason.  I'm not sure if my comments about the cable length still apply in your use case, but hopefully the new cable will sort things out for you.


----------



## kumar402

devilboy said:


> I told the manufacturer the components I have and he said they've done that arraignment before.


You can use AES input as well. It’s very well implemented in Sonnet and with good DDC you shouldn’t have any issue


----------



## Articnoise

devilboy said:


> My DAC only has RJ45 so I'm forced to use that if I want i2s.
> My Cardas Clear Network cable is 0.5m.
> The Hermes is on top on the Morpheus so technically I COULD use 15cm.
> The manufacturer is sending me another identical cable which he says has been working flawlessly in his system.
> ...


When I bought my Audio GD Master 7 in 2014, the Master 7 had no HDMI over LVDS, and only I2S with RJ45 connector. In any case, it was no problem for me and others to use quality cables of 0.75 meters, so it is a myth that it wouldn't work. That it then sounds a little better with shorter I2S cables is another story.


----------



## devilboy

Thanks to all for your input.

I figured out the problem. For anyone who experiences crackling and popping when using the i2s output of the Hermes DDC, here's how I fixed it:

You have to toggle through different pin configurations until you find one that works.
Push the setup button on the front panel. Then push coax button. As you push the coax button, you will begin toggling through what I believe are eight different pinout settings. I basically kept toggling until I found a setting that made  the crackling go away.
Once I had music without crackling or popping, I pushed the setup button once again and now the DDC remembers that setting.

I hope this helps the next person who loses their mind after purchasing all this stuff. Lol!


----------



## alvin1118

*I²S *
I²S has no industry standard. If you would like to use the I²S connection, the I²S pinout matching with the DAC has to be configured correctly. Mismatch of I²S pinout may result in static/noise output. The excessive noise output level may damage the loudspeakers/headphone drivers.

*Suggestion of I²S matching with the DAC*
1. Connect the I²S cable (good quality HDMI cable <3ft/1m)
2. Turn down the volume (audible, minimal)
3. Play a familiar music (PCM first, followed by DSD)
4. Run through the I²S setting of the DDC (please check with the DAC manufacturer for more details)
5. One of the modes should match with the source for both PCM and DSD playback.

It's recommended to go through the Audio Tone Test to make sure the L/R channel, in phase/out of phase correctness.

*Note*
DENAFRIPS Hermes/Gaia DDC shipped after 25th March 2021 is equipped with I²S pinout configuration capability. Please refer to the manual for more details.

*Guide for i2s setup: *https://www.denafrips.com/config-i2s


----------



## devilboy

alvin1118 said:


> *I²S *
> I²S has no industry standard. If you would like to use the I²S connection, the I²S pinout matching with the DAC has to be configured correctly. Mismatch of I²S pinout may result in static/noise output. The excessive noise output level may damage the loudspeakers/headphone drivers.
> 
> *Suggestion of I²S matching with the DAC*
> ...


Yes. I even told the manufacturer of the cable I was using which components it was connecting and he said that he did that before. He said that he can figure the pin arrangement correctly. For whatever reason, I had to go through different pages on the setup process as Alvin explained.
Whatever. No worries. It's a fantastic piece and it sounds great with my DAC.


----------



## centuriones (Mar 1, 2022)

Hi guys, if it can be useful, I wanted to share these last impressions of mine.

For about a month I have replaced my DDC Iris with the superior Hermes model.

I state that both DDCs were connected in i2s to a Denafrips Pontus II DAC.

After the proper running in period, compared to my previous DDC Iris, I found the Hermes more defined clear and detailed, well balanced and not sparkling highs, clear mids and (I think) more prominent, tighter and deeper bass, more soundstage ample.

Even though the Hermes costs a lot more, it was worth it for me.


----------



## CAJames

centuriones said:


> ...Even though the Hermes costs a lot more, it was worth it for me.



It seems like every step up the Denafrips line is a good value for improved performance.


----------



## dcguy73 (Mar 2, 2022)

I moved my Gaia to my living room setup. Honestly, the server in my main setup with its galvanically-isolated I2S port sounds just as good as the Gaia, and it’s one less box to deal with. 

In theory, pairing the Gaia with the Terminator Plus and using the clock sync function should sound “better” than connecting an unsynced source direct to the Terminator Plus, but I haven’t found that to be true in practice. I’ve moved the Gaia in and out of my system multiple times now, and every time I’m surprised that there’s not a huge difference with it in the chain.

If the Gaia had a galvanically-isolated USB out plus an I2S out, it would be ideal in my setup.


----------



## S Crowther

dcguy73 said:


> I moved my Gaia to my living room setup. Honestly, the server in my main setup with its galvanically-isolated I2S port sounds just as good as the Gaia, and it’s one less box to deal with.
> 
> In theory, pairing the Gaia with the Terminator Plus and using the clock sync function should sound “better” than connecting an unsynced source direct to the Terminator Plus, but I haven’t found that to be true in practice. I’ve moved the Gaia in and out of my system multiple times now, and every time I’m surprised that there’s not a huge difference with it in the chain.
> 
> If the Gaia had a galvanically-isolated USB out plus an I2S out, it would be ideal in my setup.


When I added the Gaia to the T+ instead of the Singer SU-6 DDC I had previously been using I heard a big improvement. When I later started using the clock sync function there was  another big improvement. I am listening on headphones.


----------



## dcguy73 (Mar 3, 2022)

S Crowther said:


> When I added the Gaia to the T+ instead of the Singer SU-6 DDC I had previously been using I heard a big improvement. When I later started using the clock sync function there was  another big improvement. I am listening on headphones.


I have no doubt the Gaia is a more effective DDC than the Singxer model you mention. I own the KTE-upgraded SU-1 model myself, and it's bested by the blacker background and flexibility (more options for digital inputs and outputs) of the Gaia.

But in my headphones-based system, I find the galvanically-isolated I2S output of my source to sound similar to the same source via its USB output filtered through the Gaia and being output through the Gaia's I2S port, whether using the clock sync or not to the T+.

I'm not saying the Gaia isn't good at what it does, but in my main headphones-based system, it doesn't add much to what I already have.


----------



## CAJames (Mar 3, 2022)

It makes sense to me that a source with a quality I2S output directly into a T+ would sound as good or better than e.g. USB or S/PDIF into a Gaia and then I2S to a T+. Maybe someday that will be the default digital output.


----------



## dcguy73 (Mar 3, 2022)

I guess I'm at the stage in my audiophile journey where I question the real world value of all the USB re-clockers/DDC components out there.

I find DDC devices most useful as digital preamplifiers that let you connect one source to a variety of outputs or multiple sources to one output.

If one of my sources puts out a good signal, I don't think it's possible to help make it "better" through a DDC. I own a ton of DDC peripherals/USB reclockers/de-jitter-izers from iFi Audio, Singxer, Denafrips, Audioquest, Holo Audio, and others. While inserting them into my audio chain definitely makes the end result sound different, I don't find the change in sound to be "better" by a significant amount. If I'm looking to fine-tune the sound, meaning a more focused or relaxed presentation, then yes, those peripherals help with that, but I think all of my audio sources are of sufficient quality with up-to-date technology inside that their signals don't need to be made "better."

I think there are use cases where DDC/USB reclockers might help technologically, like with a noisy signal coming from computer-based audio that isn't grounded properly or something, but I haven't experimented enough with my desktop setup to have experience with that.


----------



## sajunky (Mar 3, 2022)

dcguy73 said:


> I think there are use cases where DDC/USB reclockers might help technologically, like with a noisy signal coming from computer-based audio that isn't grounded properly or something, but I haven't experimented enough with my desktop setup to have experience with that.


You are right. With asynchronous transfers USB reclockers do not work the way they are advertised. It is recently explained by the dCS rep in this post. Such devices can even make things worse if asynchronous clock synchronisation is broken, it frequently happens when galvanic isolators are implemented. James explains that in their implementation jitter is not added on the connection, but it is not always true with USB reclockers. What works, is redirection of ground loops, it sounds better because a cleaner ground potential is feeded to a DAC. This issue is a reason why DDC's, network streamers or even such devices like MScaller improve sound.


----------



## DenverW

I picked up an iris and I'm having fun getting it set up and doing some listening.  My current chain is usb from my PC to the iris, then coax to my  audio mirror tubadour iii se dac.  I'm having a bit of difficulty getting the i2s working, obviously the pin outs I have on my vanilla standard hdmi cables aren't compatible.  I get sound, but it has a strong hiss/distortion to it.  I know there is no standard for this, which is frustrating.  Can anyone recommend an i2s/hdmi connector cable that would work in this situation?  

For example this one is recommended from Alvin: https://usashop.sommercable.com/en/Cable/HiFi-Home/Multimediakabel-EXCELSIOR-BlueWater-EBH4.html.  I'd hate to purchase a $100 cable and have it not be compatible with the tubadour.  Help, wise ones!


----------



## shwnwllms

DenverW said:


> I picked up an iris and I'm having fun getting it set up and doing some listening.  My current chain is usb from my PC to the iris, then coax to my  audio mirror tubadour iii se dac.  I'm having a bit of difficulty getting the i2s working, obviously the pin outs I have on my vanilla standard hdmi cables aren't compatible.  I get sound, but it has a strong hiss/distortion to it.  I know there is no standard for this, which is frustrating.  Can anyone recommend an i2s/hdmi connector cable that would work in this situation?
> 
> For example this one is recommended from Alvin: https://usashop.sommercable.com/en/Cable/HiFi-Home/Multimediakabel-EXCELSIOR-BlueWater-EBH4.html.  I'd hate to purchase a $100 cable and have it not be compatible with the tubadour.  Help, wise ones!


Reach out to Alvin, he’s quick to respond. If you have a Denafrips DAC you can program the pin outs. I’m not sure if that’s an option on the Iris after the last firmware update or not. IIRC even the cable he recommended that you linked needs to be programmed (I bought a Wireworld silver sphere which required programming and I also had to swap L & R channels for DSD). You might have better luck with one of the HDMI cables that is audio only (such as the tubulus) but this is just an educated guess, I’ve got no experience with that cable or anything other than hooking an Iris up to a Pontus.

Here’s the tubulus, but it’s not cheap https://www.tubulus.net/product/tubulus-argentus-i2s-cable/


----------



## DenverW

shwnwllms said:


> Reach out to Alvin, he’s quick to respond. If you have a Denafrips DAC you can program the pin outs. I’m not sure if that’s an option on the Iris after the last firmware update or not. IIRC even the cable he recommended that you linked needs to be programmed (I bought a Wireworld silver sphere which required programming and I also had to swap L & R channels for DSD). You might have better luck with one of the HDMI cables that is audio only (such as the tubulus) but this is just an educated guess, I’ve got no experience with that cable or anything other than hooking an Iris up to a Pontus.
> 
> Here’s the tubulus, but it’s not cheap https://www.tubulus.net/product/tubulus-argentus-i2s-cable/


I just have the iris, not a denafrips dac, so I'm not aware of the ability to program the pin outs (unless this is possible somehow on the iris).  I suppose I could try Alvin again, but when I was considering a pontus ii I reached out twice through the website, and once here with direct PM with a question about latency and never got a reply.

Thanks for the input!


----------



## shwnwllms

DenverW said:


> I just have the iris, not a denafrips dac, so I'm not aware of the ability to program the pin outs (unless this is possible somehow on the iris).  I suppose I could try Alvin again, but when I was considering a pontus ii I reached out twice through the website, and once here with direct PM with a question about latency and never got a reply.
> 
> Thanks for the input!


There was a video I saw where Alvin put in a request to program from the Iris. I just don’t know if it’s implemented or not since I just programmed mine from the Pontus. He requested it for your specific situation so it’s in the works if it’s not already available. If I can find it I’ll link you to it. 

I’ve always reached him through the website but 
sales@vinshineaudio.com will get you to him as well


----------



## devilboy (Mar 5, 2022)

I have a Denafrips Hermes DDC and a Sonnet Morpheus DAC.
I contacted a reputable cable manufacturer who had a third party make a network cable terminated with RJ45 (because that's the only i2s capability my DAC has). This cable was said to be specific to these particular components. Somehow the pin arrangement was STILL not correct and I was getting fairly loud clicks and pops during playback. I was ready to have him make another cake but then I watched one of Alvin's videos and I changed the pin arrangements via the "setup" button and BAMM, no clicks, no pops. I think they're a total of 8 different arrangements and I just kept going until I found one that worked. The second or third of the 8.


----------



## CAJames (Mar 5, 2022)

It is never a bad idea to contact Alvin, but at least according to the manuals you can program the I2S pinout in the Hermes and Gaia but not the Iris. The actual I2S pinout is in the manual, so if you know the pinout of your DAC in theory you ought to be able to get custom cable to make them work together. My last email from Vinshine said to use support@vinshinesaudio.com for tech support.


----------



## DenverW

I did get a response from audio mirror, which was helpful.  The tubadour uses the ps audio standard, which I’ve read is what the terminator uses.  Are the ares and Pontus different?


----------



## shwnwllms

DenverW said:


> I did get a response from audio mirror, which was helpful.  The tubadour uses the ps audio standard, which I’ve read is what the terminator uses.  Are the ares and Pontus different?


I believe the PS Audio Standard is the default option (first option when you go to program it but there would be various options you can cycle through) on all Denafrips devices, I tried to ask Alvin about it but didn't get a clear answer.


----------



## DenverW

shwnwllms said:


> I believe the PS Audio Standard is the default option (first option when you go to program it but there would be various options you can cycle through) on all Denafrips devices, I tried to ask Alvin about it but didn't get a clear answer.


I received a reply back from vinshine at last.  They let me know that "You are right, PS audio and Denafrips by default do not have the same I2S pin configuration."

Since the iris is not reprogrammable, it will not be compatible with PS Audio standard.  Bummer.  Probably best to let people be aware of this if they plan to use the iris with other dacs; the i2s won't work.


----------



## shwnwllms

DenverW said:


> I received a reply back from vinshine at last.  They let me know that "You are right, PS audio and Denafrips by default do not have the same I2S pin configuration."
> 
> Since the iris is not reprogrammable, it will not be compatible with PS Audio standard.  Bummer.  Probably best to let people be aware of this if they plan to use the iris with other dacs; the i2s won't work.


Damn that sucks. Time to upgrade to a Hermes? (I’m half joking but I’m sure Alvin would let you trade it in or you could always sell it if you wanted to go that route, if I2S is important to you. I know it made a difference in my system but I’m using a Mac Mini as a source. If you have a streamer already the benefit is going to noticeably less)


----------



## DenverW (Mar 7, 2022)

shwnwllms said:


> Damn that sucks. Time to upgrade to a Hermes? (I’m half joking but I’m sure Alvin would let you trade it in or you could always sell it if you wanted to go that route, if I2S is important to you. I know it made a difference in my system but I’m using a Mac Mini as a source. If you have a streamer already the benefit is going to noticeably less)


There is pretty much zero chance of that.  My experience so far has been pretty bad.

Did you notice a difference from coax cable to i2s?  I run from a PC, which is why I thought the iris would be a good idea.


----------



## shafat777

DenverW said:


> There is pretty much zero chance of that.  My experience so far has been pretty bad.
> 
> Did you notice a difference from coax cable to i2s?  I run from a PC, which is why I thought the iris would be a good idea.


If I2s is not an option, then give aes a try. I have tried the I2s and aes of my hermes DDC and cant really tell that much of a difference. Maybe the I2s is a tad bit more resolving but that just could be placebo. The Iris is a good DDC. Which dac are you trying to run off it?


----------



## sajunky

If it is a pin assignment difference, you can always make custom HDMI cable to get Iris working with I2S. Alvin should offer one, just an idea. Otherwise DI-20.


----------



## DenverW

shafat777 said:


> If I2s is not an option, then give aes a try. I have tried the I2s and aes of my hermes DDC and cant really tell that much of a difference. Maybe the I2s is a tad bit more resolving but that just could be placebo. The Iris is a good DDC. Which dac are you trying to run off it?


The audiomirror tubadour iii se.  It’s using ps audio standard config.


----------



## dcguy73

I moved the Gaia back to my main headphone system. After I sent my Loki Max back to Schiit for repair, I realized that something was missing from my system. The Gaia makes the sound a little smoother and more focused overall.

I guess the Gaia does improve things — not that it makes the signal “better,” but makes the sound more pleasing to the ear.


----------



## McPh1st0

A question: does the use of a DDC (I2S connection) with it's superior clocks (compared to Pontus II) make sence when Denafrips states (on their Pontus website) that "All (!) digital input are FIFO buffered and reclocked by the on board FEMTO clocks"? Also in the picture (DSP board) on the same website can be seen "Adaptive FIFO Buffer Recklocking via the on board FEMTO Clocks to the USB input signal (!!) )". It seems like there is a contradiction (reclocking all digital input vs USB input only) as i understand it. This confuses me a bit...
The Iris reclocks the signal with it's better clocks, then sends it via I2S to the Pontus where the signal is buffered and reclocked again with inferior clocks (compared to Iris)? Does it make sence? Is ALL digital input getting reclocked (like it's mentioned in the text-part of the Pontus description) or JUST the asychronus USB input (as described in the picture)? Or does the signal from I2S bypass the Pontus FPGA board?
Any input from more knowledgeable people than me is appreciated...

PS: I have posted the above in the Pontus thread also but it concerns the Iris as well . Please forgive the double-posting..


----------



## sajunky (Mar 28, 2022)

McPh1st0 said:


> The Iris reclocks the signal with it's better clocks, then sends it via I2S to the Pontus where the signal is buffered and reclocked again with inferior clocks (compared to Iris)? Does it make sence? Is ALL digital input getting reclocked (like it's mentioned in the text-part of the Pontus description) or JUST the asychronus USB input (as described in the picture)? Or does the signal from I2S bypass the Pontus FPGA board?


I doubt Iris has better clocks than Pontus, neither I2S bypass FPGA, but other questions are good. In theory asynchronous USB connection should deliver completely jitter-free data, so there is no reason for DDC. A main function of DDC is to separate DAC from noisy sources. This noise is not altering any bits of data, but is entering inside DAC through the ground connection and closes loop through the power supply, it spreads inside cause jitter. Adding galvanic isolation on USB is a technical challenge and can introduce more jitter than a direct connection. Reclocking - the best is to avoid or do it right, in short I can say DDC does very complex job.


----------



## kumar402

Iris has TCXO and higher model like Hermes DDC uses OCXO. I’m not sure what’s inside this DAC though. However if it is reclocking every input then there must be some setting to use external clock vs internal. I guess Rockna does that they give an option.


----------



## kumar402

McPh1st0 said:


> A question: does the use of a DDC (I2S connection) with it's superior clocks (compared to Pontus II) make sence when Denafrips states (on their Pontus website) that "All (!) digital input are FIFO buffered and reclocked by the on board FEMTO clocks"? Also in the picture (DSP board) on the same website can be seen "Adaptive FIFO Buffer Recklocking via the on board FEMTO Clocks to the USB input signal (!!) )". It seems like there is a contradiction (reclocking all digital input vs USB input only) as i understand it. This confuses me a bit...
> The Iris reclocks the signal with it's better clocks, then sends it via I2S to the Pontus where the signal is buffered and reclocked again with inferior clocks (compared to Iris)? Does it make sence? Is ALL digital input getting reclocked (like it's mentioned in the text-part of the Pontus description) or JUST the asychronus USB input (as described in the picture)? Or does the signal from I2S bypass the Pontus FPGA board?
> Any input from more knowledgeable people than me is appreciated...
> 
> PS: I have posted the above in the Pontus thread also but it concerns the Iris as well . Please forgive the double-posting..


Well as per manual they don’t use any Audio receiver chip for SPDIF and it goes via FPGA so looks like it might be reclocking everything. But still a DDC removes ground loop and noise of USB and provides jitter free signal. Hence a good input for Pontus to work on.


----------



## sajunky

kumar402 said:


> Iris has TCXO and higher model like Hermes DDC uses OCXO. I’m not sure what’s inside this DAC though. However if it is reclocking every input then there must be some setting to use external clock vs internal. I guess Rockna does that they give an option.


Correct. External clock feature is only present in a TOTL Denafrips DAC, Pontus do not have. And it doesn't allow to use third-party external clock devices. If you want a DAC with industry standard 10MHz external clock input, the closest in this price range is Audio GD R8mk2.

Pontus has ultra low jitter clocks from Accusilicon,  in my opinion better than a typical TCXO, not sure about model used in Iris.


----------



## kumar402

sajunky said:


> Correct. External clock feature is only present in a TOTL Denafrips DAC, Pontus do not have. And it doesn't allow to use third-party external clock devices. If you want a DAC with industry standard 10MHz external clock input, the closest in this price range is Audio GD R8mk2.
> 
> Pontus has ultra low jitter clocks from Accusilicon,  in my opinion better than a typical TCXO, not sure about model used in Iris.


I use Gustard U18 which has clock from Accusilicon - AS338 and is very nice clock indeed.


----------



## CAJames (Mar 28, 2022)

What I know for sure is I got my Gaia before before I got the BNC cables to sync the clock with my T2. And both USB and AES/EBU sounded better into Gaia connected with I2S than straight into the T2. Adding the clock sync took it up another level. FWIW/YMMV.


----------



## Hoshi

McPh1st0 said:


> A question: does the use of a DDC (I2S connection) with it's superior clocks (compared to Pontus II) make sence when Denafrips states (on their Pontus website) that "All (!) digital input are FIFO buffered and reclocked by the on board FEMTO clocks"? Also in the picture (DSP board) on the same website can be seen "Adaptive FIFO Buffer Recklocking via the on board FEMTO Clocks to the USB input signal (!!) )". It seems like there is a contradiction (reclocking all digital input vs USB input only) as i understand it. This confuses me a bit...
> The Iris reclocks the signal with it's better clocks, then sends it via I2S to the Pontus where the signal is buffered and reclocked again with inferior clocks (compared to Iris)? Does it make sence? Is ALL digital input getting reclocked (like it's mentioned in the text-part of the Pontus description) or JUST the asychronus USB input (as described in the picture)? Or does the signal from I2S bypass the Pontus FPGA board?
> Any input from more knowledgeable people than me is appreciated...
> 
> PS: I have posted the above in the Pontus thread also but it concerns the Iris as well . Please forgive the double-posting..


I'm a Pontus II owner and recently purchased a Hermes.  I agree with you regarding the information out there regarding clock usage is confusing.  From what I've gathered, when using a DAC like the Pontus with NO clock outputs, the clock in the DDC is the primary clock.    I'm not sure it the DACs internal clocks are used in any way if a DDC in connected.  I will say that I think it makes sense to purchase a DDC with better clocks than what internally in your DAC.  The Hermes uses OCXO's clocks which are superior to what's in the Pontus II or Iris.  

If one owns a Terminator II or Plus, the Iris is all that you really need because the clocks utilized are in the DAC.  Both Terminators have clock outputs to make this possible.


----------



## McPh1st0 (Mar 29, 2022)

Actually it was Tarun (A british audiophile) in his review ( - at 8:40) who said that because of the nature of the I2S connection the DDC is responsible for the timing and hence the importance of good/better clocks in the DDC.
But if this is not the case and every incoming signal gets reclocked from the Pontus (as stated by Denafrips) then the quality of the DDC clocks (although better than the Pontus ones) simply don't matter!

Am i getting this wrong?


----------



## sajunky (Mar 29, 2022)

McPh1st0 said:


> - at 8:40) who said that because of the asynchronus nature of the I2S connection the DDC is responsible for the timing and hence the importance of good/better clocks in the DDC.
> But if this is not the case and every incoming signal gets reclocked from the Pontus (as stated by Denafrips) then the quality of the DDC clocks (although better than the Pontus ones) simply don't matter!


Asynchronous I2S? It is all synchronous feed-forward clock. Actually I2S standard created many years ago has an option for a feedback clock, in this case DDC would be synchronised with a DAC clock, but it hasn't been implemented in de-facto audio industry standard.

In other words a clock on the DDC matters. Asynchronous data stream delivery (USB or network) is broken on DDC. A clock on DAC is still important, but it depends. It may deploy PLL, then a clock simply follow a source, or it can use large FIFO with use of a local clock and intelligent sample inserting/removal to compensate timing difference. Variable latency may indicate the later.


----------



## McPh1st0

Sorry, my mistake (asynchronus) - i corrected it


----------



## BzzzzzT (Apr 13, 2022)

Is anyone getting severe listening fatigue from their Iris? I have the Iris going into my Pontus 2. Listening causes me severe fatigue and I cannot listen at higher volumes without hurting my hearing. My ears rings badly after short sessions at modest volume. Detailed planars like my Abyss are almost unlistenable. I have been avoiding my pride and joy because of it. I have heard in other threads that this is a common problem with the Pontus 2. There seems to be an issue with how it's been engineered and it can cause problems depending on the source. I'm now using a $60 Douk i2s and that works amazingly well and causes no fatigue and I feel sounds even better. I really like my Pontus 2. But the DDC seems to cause harmonics above the Nyquist rate that are VERY bad. I'm not picking up any distortion and the signal sounds fine. I will say my ears are sensitive to harmonics. Works well for tuning woodwinds, synths and making reeds but I can be sensitive to certain equipment. Even my Adam S3XV monitors would pick this up and they are ruthless to the source and are for professional production, so it's not just my headphones. Before this I had an RME ADI-2 DAC and did not experience problems and my audio interface's DAC does not have this issue. I did not use i2s with these 2 DACs. I found i2s to bring more detail and dynamics.


----------



## shwnwllms

Do you have a decibel meter? The Iris / Pontus combo (i2s) is incredibly resolving, with very little noise or distortion. It can be hard to judge volume just by listening if your previous system wasn’t as resolving. Ringing in the ears is usually a sign of listening too loud. I found this happened to me when I upgraded everything recently. By using a decibel meter I was able to find a safe listening level (and determine I was listening at unsafe levels for extended periods, but initially to my ears it did not sound louder than my previous DAC /Amp)


----------



## BzzzzzT

shwnwllms said:


> Do you have a decibel meter? The Iris / Pontus combo (i2s) is incredibly resolving, with very little noise or distortion. It can be hard to judge volume just by listening if your previous system wasn’t as resolving. Ringing in the ears is usually a sign of listening too loud. I found this happened to me when I upgraded everything recently. By using a decibel meter I was able to find a safe listening level (and determine I was listening at unsafe levels for extended periods, but initially to my ears it did not sound louder than my previous DAC /Amp)


I do have a decibel meter. It's a good point to make, but is not applicable to this situation. It is at both low and high volume. I also know others who have the same issue. I have had two Arcam DACs in the past and an RME ADI-2. I also have two other DACs in my studio; a Focuswright and Steinberg A/D converter and both have DACs for playback. I know the Focuswright has an AKM in it.

The Iris brought the problem to the chain. My Pontus 2 had no issues with this and performs better than all my other DACs with i2s until the Iris was introduced. The Douk audio i2s fixed it. It also sounds better timbre wise with the same quality of the Iris and slightly better dynamics. I am also running a low noise power wart from ifi with it. This suggests that the Iris is developing some harmonic distortion. I also get this with different sample rates. It's worse with higher ones, but this is also because they often develop harmonics above the Nyquist rate due to the added frequency information. I will have to try putting my old somewhat functional oscilloscope on the signal to check. It brought horrible pain to my ears and tinnitus which I have never had issues with. I decided to warn others after I noticed other posts with the same problem and people selling their setup because of it. I also have the problem when I run correction software to give a flat frequency response like Sonarworks. There seems to be nothing wrong with the Iris function wise. It seems to be a problem in how it was implemented.

I was wondering if anyone had the issue. It makes volume much more fatiguing and sensitive in a way no other equipment I have used in the past has done. I really love Denafrips and their DACs but the Iris was not a good purchase for me.


----------



## BzzzzzT

shwnwllms said:


> Ringing in the ears is usually a sign of listening too loud. I found this happened to me when I upgraded everything recently. By using a decibel meter I was able to find a safe listening level (and determine I was listening at unsafe levels for extended periods, but initially to my ears it did not sound louder than my previous DAC /Amp)



It sounds like your having the same problem. On any good audio equipment you should be able to listen at high sound pressure levels within reason and not have ear ringing. I do not get this even when rocking out and I have had my hearing checked. I have high quality equipment. Often people fuss with cables and stuff down the chain when it was not implemented correctly in the first place.


----------



## BzzzzzT

BTW. This is the device I used that fixed the problem. Don't judge it by the price. It is a quality DDC. Your just reclocking the signal to send to the DAC. I am now a bit leery of these over-built DDCs. I did buy a power supply for it from ifi.

DOUK i2s


----------



## sajunky

BzzzzzT said:


> m now using a $60 Douk i2s and that works amazingly well and causes no fatigue and I feel sounds even better. I really like my Pontus 2. But the DDC seems to cause harmonics above the Nyquist rate that are VERY bad. I'm not picking up any distortion and the signal sounds fine.


Iris do not add harmonic distortions, as it passes digital datastream. It can add jitter and our ears are more sensitive to jitter than harmonic distortions. Did you try both S/PDIF and I2S connections?

It is strange that U2 Pro fixes the problem, it only shows there is something wrong with Iris. You can try other DDCs like Audio GD DI-20HE and other. I own Douk Audio, it does a job redirecting ground loops when paired with good power supply (which you do), but it has no comparison with a real DDC.


----------



## BzzzzzT

sajunky said:


> Iris do not add harmonic distortions, as it passes digital datastream. It can add jitter and our ears are more sensitive to jitter than harmonic distortions. Did you try both S/PDIF and I2S connections?
> 
> It is strange that U2 Pro fixes the problem, it only shows there is something wrong with Iris. You can try other DDCs like Audio GD DI-20HE and other. I own Douk Audio, it does a job redirecting ground loops when paired with good power supply (which you do), but it has no comparison with a real DDC.



You are correct. The Iris is not causing harmonic distortion. It could be causing jitter. The Pontus 2 is the cause of the harmonics and maybe possibly jitter, but the root is the Iris. So on a technical level it is not the root cause but it is the driver of the distortion. I have not tried other cables. The maker should build their device correctly. Trying to fix something that was not engineered correctly or has faults by changing cables is not productive IMO. It was a $600 dollar DDC. It should not have this problem and I should not have to play with cables. This is why pro audio makes fun of audiophiles and the companies that cater to them. Other people are having this problem so it's not just me.

We will have to agree to disagree on the point of having a subjectively "real DDC." The Iris is a real DDC and the U2 does it just as well. Also the U2 is better than the more expensive Amanero. Where does it all end. There is no real advantage to the Iris over the U2 Pro and I seriously doubt the other two higher end models costing many times more. These devices just reclock signals and send it to the DAC. I find these DDCs to be basically overbuilt to do something that does not need all these components. If you spend large amounts of money it must be better. Right? Where does it all end. Apparently with your pocket book. Your just reclocking and pushing tiny voltages representing 1s and 0s. The ifi wall wort for my U2 has 1uV of noise for power. The Iris and the others I doubt comes even close as they have a linear power supply. Your not doing some complex conversion or driving an impedance coupled load. I'm not buying it and neither are my ears. DDCs are not snake oil but I don't see any advantage to these more expensive options. Just my view on this. I do think this is something that should be discussed.

I don't mean to sound argumentative or attack other's purchases. I just have recently come to the conclusion that these expensive DDCs are an overbuilt waste of money and if they do provide any minor improvement they are not apparent at audio frequencies. Save the money and spend it on a better amp and DAC. I suppose to some having a cheap device in the chain feeding an expensive DAC, amp and speaker/headphones will be emotionally divisive especially when there are more expensive devices that always state they improve things irrespective of reality. People tend to trust the brand. It's the nature of things.


----------



## shwnwllms

BzzzzzT said:


> Other people are having this problem so it's not just me.



Any links to these reports of these issues? I can’t find any and I’m sure Alvin would like the opportunity to address them if they exist.


----------



## BzzzzzT

I was just talking with another guy on the microZOTL 3 thread about it yesterday and thought I would check here to see if others are having this issue. I'll try to find the others later. I'm not saying the Iris does not sound good. But it definitely has harshness and causes serious fatigue and hurts my ears. I do absolutely love my Pontus 2.

microZOTL 3


----------



## BzzzzzT

shwnwllms said:


> Any links to these reports of these issues? I can’t find any and I’m sure Alvin would like the opportunity to address them if they exist.



The thing is Denafrips has no return policy. It technically works fine and if I sent it back all I will be told is the device functions fine. Plus I'm not paying the costly shipping to send it back to Singapore or China. I don't know what Alvin is going to do. He can't do anything because of their policy. Because these companies have these policies and this equipment is expensive, it's important people  know if something does not work well, because you will be stuck in a similar situation as me. What am I to do. I could not have returned it even if I wanted to. I feel the critique is justified because of this. I know I was taking a gamble on this. I accept that.


----------



## CAJames

BzzzzzT said:


> ...It technically works fine and if I sent it back all I will be told is the device functions fine.....What am I to do.



If it "works fine" I don't think you'll have any problem selling it and getting most of your money back.


----------



## BzzzzzT

CAJames said:


> If it "works fine" I don't think you'll have any problem selling it and getting most of your money back.



I plan to do that. The Iris probably works fine in many instances for many people with their equipment so I don't want to sound like a mean person or like I am trying to start some kind of flame war. I am a little miffed that this issue is with their own product and I am probably venting a little. It's hard to be critical of a product by a company that makes other products that you love. I feel so torn...


----------



## S Crowther

BzzzzzT said:


> I plan to do that. The Iris probably works fine in many instances for many people with their equipment so I don't want to sound like a mean person or like I am trying to start some kind of flame war. I am a little miffed that this issue is with their own product and I am probably venting a little. It's hard to be critical of a product by a company that makes other products that you love. I feel so torn...


I have the Iris connected by i2s to the T+ and then to the Artemis head amp. No problems. I previously used the Singxter SU-6 also connected by i2s. The Iris was a big improvement.


----------



## BzzzzzT

S Crowther said:


> I have the Iris connected by i2s to the T+ and then to the Artemis head amp. No problems. I previously used the Singxter SU-6 also connected by i2s. The Iris was a big improvement.



Good to hear! I don't know why it's having issues with my Pontus and why it gives me so many problems with my hearing. It can't be that bad, as others have liked it and it's quite well built, like all of Denafrip's equipment. I found it made a big improvement in both detail, separation and dynamics. There has to be some issue with how it interacts with the Pontus and why some others have had issues. I have no clue why my other DDC works fine for extended listening with no hearing issues.


----------



## shwnwllms

BzzzzzT said:


> It sounds like your having the same problem. On any good audio equipment you should be able to listen at high sound pressure levels within reason and not have ear ringing. I do not get this even when rocking out and I have had my hearing checked. I have high quality equipment. Often people fuss with cables and stuff down the chain when it was not implemented correctly in the first place.


I just reviewed my i2s pinout configuration, both Mode 2 and Mode 3 worked for both redbook and hi-res files with L and R channels in proper configuration. The difference between the two being phase. I'm using a Wireworld Silver Sphere, so for me Mode 2 was out of phase, while Mode 3 was in phase (in other words I was listening to music out of phase, and oversampling to DSD256 in HQP). I'm pretty sure this is the cause of what I was experiencing, sounds like its the same issue with your setup. I suggest going back through the i2s configuration. Here is a chart to assist, you can always reach out to Alvin as well if you can't get it squared away.

https://www.denafrips.com/config-pontus


----------



## BzzzzzT (Apr 17, 2022)

Thank


shwnwllms said:


> I just reviewed my i2s pinout configuration, both Mode 2 and Mode 3 worked for both redbook and hi-res files with L and R channels in proper configuration. The difference between the two being phase. I'm using a Wireworld Silver Sphere, so for me Mode 2 was out of phase, while Mode 3 was in phase (in other words I was listening to music out of phase, and oversampling to DSD256 in HQP). I'm pretty sure this is the cause of what I was experiencing, sounds like its the same issue with your setup. I suggest going back through the i2s configuration. Here is a chart to assist, you can always reach out to Alvin as well if you can't get it squared away.
> 
> https://www.denafrips.com/config-pontus


Thanks I'll try this. I really appreciate it! I will try this soon


----------



## shwnwllms

BzzzzzT said:


> The manual says nothing about phase in relation to i2s. These people really need to spend more than a few hours writing their manuals. Denafrips if you read this, check out RME's DAC manuals. That is how to write a proper manual for audio equipment. You should not have to find this out on some internet forum. Geeeez!



You can’t fault Denafrips for this, there is no standard for i2s cables so every manufacturer is different. I applaud Denafrips for coming up with a solution and allowing a more robust programming feature than most manufacturers. Plus their customer service is 2nd to none.


----------



## BzzzzzT

shwnwllms said:


> You can’t fault Denafrips for this, there is no standard for i2s cables so every manufacturer is different. I applaud Denafrips for coming up with a solution and allowing a more robust programming feature than most manufacturers. Plus their customer service is 2nd to none.


We will have to disagree on that point. They could of easily mentioned it in their manual and gone more in depth into when to use the phase button. I do agree their solution to i2s connections was a good one.


----------



## BzzzzzT

shwnwllms said:


> You can’t fault Denafrips for this, there is no standard for i2s cables so every manufacturer is different. I applaud Denafrips for coming up with a solution and allowing a more robust programming feature than most manufacturers. Plus their customer service is 2nd to none.



Thank you again for all your help! I would have completely missed the phase issue. I do really appreciate you looking into it.


----------



## shwnwllms (Apr 16, 2022)

BzzzzzT said:


> We will have to disagree on that point. They could of easily mentioned it in their manual and gone more in depth into when to use the phase button. I do agree their solution to i2s connections was a good one.



You don’t use the phase button, you need to check for phase using test files, which you can find online or in Roon (just as you would for hi-res, L/R channel) after you program the pin out configuration. It’s not in the manual as Alvin has put together a video (which is helpful in explaining the whole process) in the link I provided earlier. IIRC this feature may have been implemented in a firmware update, so it may have not been addressed in the manually specifically. 

TLDR you need to program your pin outs on your i2s cable to ensure you can play all formats of PCM & DSD and that your L & R channels are correct, AND that you are IN PHASE


----------



## BzzzzzT

Thanks


shwnwllms said:


> You don’t use the phase button, you need to check for phase using test files, which you can find online or in Roon (just as you would for hi-res, L/R channel) after you program the pin out configuration. It’s not in the manual as Alvin has put together a video (which is helpful in explaining the whole process) in the link I provided earlier. IIRC this feature may have been implemented in a firmware update, so it may have not been addressed in the manually specifically.
> 
> TLDR you need to program your pin outs on your i2s cable to ensure you can play all formats of PCM & DSD and that your L & R channels are correct, AND that you are IN PHASE


Thanks!  I'll use the test files to make sure it is all correctly set up. I have never had this issue with my other DACs before. I'm sure this info will be really useful to others who have it set up incorrectly.


----------



## S Crowther

BzzzzzT said:


> Thank
> 
> Thanks I'll try this. I really appreciate it! I will try this soon
> 
> ...


Alvin has  a YouTube video on setting up the DDC in which he goes through how to check the phase.


----------



## S Crowther

I have seen comment that positive and negative phase are indistinguishable over headphones.


----------



## BzzzzzT

S Crowther said:


> I have seen comment that positive and negative phase are indistinguishable over headphones.



The only time I have seen it be an issue is with subwoffers. I did not really notice mush difference when I tried it when I got the DAC. Bass might have been ever so slightly better when the phase light was on.

I discovered I had an ear infection today and that is the cause of my severe tinnitus. The antibiotics are getting rid of it quickly. Thank god! I was worried I somehow damaged my hearing after putting it back into my system.

I'm hoping to try configuring my Iris in a few days after my ears calm down to stop the harshness I get with it.


----------



## shwnwllms

BzzzzzT said:


> The only time I have seen it be an issue is with subwoffers. I did not really notice mush difference when I tried it when I got the DAC. Bass might have been ever so slightly better when the phase light was on.
> 
> I discovered I had an ear infection today and that is the cause of my severe tinnitus. The antibiotics are getting rid of it quickly. Thank god! I was worried I somehow damaged my hearing after putting it back into my system.
> 
> I'm hoping to try configuring my Iris in a few days after my ears calm down to stop the harshness I get with it.


The issue is you need to configure your pinouts on your i2s cable, its not going to work properly out of the box without you doing this. Every manufacturer has a different pin out and you need to reprogram the Pontus to accommodate for the cable that is in your system. Your phase is most likely reversed on the pin outs (music is playing out of phase instead of in phase) and this can be fixed by programming the correct pin out setting (the phase button on the front has no bearing on this). If this is too troublesome or you don't understand what I am talking about after watching the video that Alvin made and the link explaining everything I posted above then just use an AES or SPDIF cable, you don't need to program those. You didn't damage your hearing unless you were listening to something at mind numbing levels, its also not a defect in the audio equipment that caused any of this.


----------



## BzzzzzT

shwnwllms said:


> The issue is you need to configure your pinouts on your i2s cable, its not going to work properly out of the box without you doing this. Every manufacturer has a different pin out and you need to reprogram the Pontus to accommodate for the cable that is in your system. Your phase is most likely reversed on the pin outs (music is playing out of phase instead of in phase) and this can be fixed by programming the correct pin out setting (the phase button on the front has no bearing on this). If this is too troublesome or you don't understand what I am talking about after watching the video that Alvin made and the link explaining everything I posted above then just use an AES or SPDIF cable, you don't need to program those. You didn't damage your hearing unless you were listening to something at mind numbing levels, its also not a defect in the audio equipment that caused any of this.


I understand this and the concept of phase. I have built 2 amplifiers.


----------



## sajunky

BzzzzzT said:


> The only time I have seen it be an issue is with subwoffers. I did not really notice mush difference when I tried it when I got the DAC. Bass might have been ever so slightly better when the phase light was on.
> 
> I discovered I had an ear infection today and that is the cause of my severe tinnitus. The antibiotics are getting rid of it quickly. Thank god! I was worried I somehow damaged my hearing after putting it back into my system.
> 
> I'm hoping to try configuring my Iris in a few days after my ears calm down to stop the harshness I get with it.


There would be no phase change on the S/PDIF coax or AES connection. Quicker to test. However tests should not stop on that. You also need to test for the absolute phase. Effect of not maintaining absolute phase is less obstructing to our ears, but making it right will improve SQ and also can reduce fatigue over extended sessions.


----------



## BzzzzzT

sajunky said:


> There would be no phase change on the S/PDIF coax or AES connection. Quicker to test. However tests should not stop on that. You also need to test for the absolute phase. Effect of not maintaining absolute phase is less obstructing to our ears, but making it right will improve SQ and also can reduce fatigue over extended sessions.


I agree, fixing this should stop the fatigue. I'll reconfigure the Iris and test. I have to wait for my ears to heal from this infection so I can hear more clearly.


----------



## BzzzzzT

shwnwllms said:


> The issue is you need to configure your pinouts on your i2s cable, its not going to work properly out of the box without you doing this. Every manufacturer has a different pin out and you need to reprogram the Pontus to accommodate for the cable that is in your system. Your phase is most likely reversed on the pin outs (music is playing out of phase instead of in phase) and this can be fixed by programming the correct pin out setting (the phase button on the front has no bearing on this). If this is too troublesome or you don't understand what I am talking about after watching the video that Alvin made and the link explaining everything I posted above then just use an AES or SPDIF cable, you don't need to program those. You didn't damage your hearing unless you were listening to something at mind numbing levels, its also not a defect in the audio equipment that caused any of this.



I did the correct configuration and tests. Even with my fried hearing from my infection, I can tell everything is correct! Thank you again for all your help. My dumb ass had it setup incorrectly and that explains the harshness issues.

You are all the best! This was a weird problem for me. Because the device seemed to work fine despite being set up incorrectly by myself.


----------



## alvin1118

As @sajunky suggested, AES/EBU or SPDIF is quicker to test & compare the sound correctness. 
I2S is a little more complex. 

@BzzzzzT, glad to hear you've set up the Iris / Pontus II DAC i2s pinout correctly 

p/s: Thanks for the help @shwnwllms!


----------



## centuriones (May 14, 2022)

Hi guys, I have to point out that fantastic person Alvin from Denafrips who as soon as he learned of my problem with the DDC Iris which had failed about four months ago, then sent to the Denafrips service center and lost at Chinese customs, sent me an IRIS replacement.
Kudos to Denafrips and Alvin, very serious and reliable company and people with excellent products.
Thank you so much Alvin.


----------



## alvin1118

centuriones said:


> Hi guys, I have to point out that fantastic person Alvin from Denafrips who as soon as he learned of my problem with the DDC Iris which had failed about four months ago, then sent to the Denafrips service center and lost at Chinese customs, sent me an IRIS replacement.
> Kudos to Denafrips and Alvin, very serious and reliable company and people with excellent products.
> Thank you so much Alvin.



Hey man, you're very welcome


----------



## Enoji

My source is my PC so I was wondering if anyone else had tested the Gaia on the Venus 2 with the pc as the source. What kind of improvement have you noticed. Was also curious If anyone who has listened to the Gaia Venus II combo and have heard the Terminator. If so how does it compare. Thank you for your time.


----------



## alvin1118

Enoji said:


> My source is my PC so I was wondering if anyone else had tested the Gaia on the Venus 2 with the pc as the source. What kind of improvement have you noticed. Was also curious If anyone who has listened to the Gaia Venus II combo and have heard the Terminator. If so how does it compare. Thank you for your time.



Here are some customers' feedback:

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/i-am-satisfied-with-the-gaia-and-venus-ii
https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/i-am-enjoying-the-tremendously


----------



## Enoji

alvin1118 said:


> Here are some customers' feedback:
> 
> https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/i-am-satisfied-with-the-gaia-and-venus-ii
> https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/i-am-enjoying-the-tremendously


Thanks for the links. I did not know Denafrips had customer testimonials


----------



## alvin1118

Most welcome sir. 
It's encouraging to learn from the customers their first hand experience with the products. 

https://www.denafrips.com/news


----------



## DenverW

alvin1118 said:


> Most welcome sir.
> It's encouraging to learn from the customers their first hand experience with the products.
> 
> https://www.denafrips.com/news


Any hope for the iris to have programable I2s like the Hermes in the future?  Finding a cable to match the iris and other dacs is not easy as they have to be custom made.


----------



## shwnwllms

DenverW said:


> Any hope for the iris to have programable I2s like the Hermes in the future?  Finding a cable to match the iris and other dacs is not easy as they have to be custom made.



I would try to email Alvin directly, you’ll get a much quicker response. He’s not quick to respond to forum posts. He’s also a reasonable guy, if there are no plans to implement it (or if it’s not possible with the hardware) and the Iris isn’t working for your use case he might be willing to offer you a trade in on the Iris & sell you a Hermes at a reduced rate (it never hurts to ask)


----------



## Asimov-kln

Aloha!
First I got a Denafrips Pontus II and loved it and it's a great bang for the bucks for sure. 

However, I am disappointed to get the Denafrips Hermes DDC because in PCM mode its output is limited to 384kz only through I2S and DSD up to 512. 
But Pontus II could support up to PCM 1536khz on USB and I2S and DSD1024.  
So Hermes is a bottleneck for Pontus and all other DAC. The topline DDC GAIA got the same limitation!! Here is the link: https://www.denafrips.com/specs-hermes

DSD     DSD64 (DoP) on Coax/AES/Opt Input & Output 
     Upto DSD512 On USB Input & I²S Output 
PCM     24bits / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192KHz On All Input & Output 
     Up to 768KHz On USB Input & Up to 384KHz on I²S Output 

I Hope, @alvin1118 could shed some light on this limitation of Denafrips DDC.


----------



## sajunky

@Asimov-kln .
Such limitations are acceptable by many. Why do you want sampling rates above 384k? Pontus upsample everything to the maximum ladder frequency, even in so called NOS mode.


----------



## dcguy73

sajunky said:


> @Asimov-kln .
> Such limitations are acceptable by many. Why do you want sampling rates above 384k? Pontus upsample everything to the maximum ladder frequency, even in so called NOS mode.


He's got a point. I've never understood why the DDCs in the Denafrips lineup have limitations like that when their DACs don't.


----------



## sajunky

dcguy73 said:


> He's got a point. I've never understood why the DDCs in the Denafrips lineup have limitations like that when their DACs don't.


A DAC can fake a support for higher frequencies (like they do it with NOS), with DDC it wouldn't work for long.... It is why.

Anyway, anything higher than 384k serve no purpose, this is a fact. There is no need to put presure on Denafrips on this issue.


----------



## dcguy73

sajunky said:


> A DAC can fake a support for higher frequencies (like they do it with NOS), with DDC it wouldn't work for long.... It is why.
> 
> Anyway, anything higher than 384k serve no purpose, this is a fact. There is no need to put presure on Denafrips on this issue.


I don't understand your explanation. Let's agree to disagree. I see no issue asking @alvin1118 about this.


----------



## shwnwllms

dcguy73 said:


> I don't understand your explanation. Let's agree to disagree. I see no issue asking @alvin1118 about this.


As I understand it, its a limitation of the I2S protocol and how it handles data. There are 2 clocks at play, a word clock (or L/R clock) and a bit clock to keep everything synced after the incoming channels are split. If your maximum USB input is 768k (DoP) then your I2S output will be half that after the channels are split into L/R. So even though the clocks themselves are capable of 768k, because of the way I2S handles data your output is now 384k. It would take a much higher end clock than what the entry level Iris is capable of, this would increase cost significantly (and I am not sure there are many entry level DDC's that would be capable of outputting 768k anyway.)

Alvin doesn't monitor the forums, but if you send him an email I'm sure he would be able to explain it better than I did.


----------



## sajunky (Jun 30, 2022)

shwnwllms said:


> As I understand it, its a limitation of the I2S protocol and how it handles data. There are 2 clocks at play, a word clock (or L/R clock) and a bit clock to keep everything synced after the incoming channels are split. If your maximum USB input is 768k (DoP) then your I2S output will be half that after the channels are split into L/R. So even though the clocks themselves are capable of 768k, because of the way I2S handles data your output is now 384k. It would take a much higher end clock than what the entry level Iris is capable of, this would increase cost significantly (and I am not sure there are many entry level DDC's that would be capable of outputting 768k anyway.)
> 
> Alvin doesn't monitor the forums, but if you send him an email I'm sure he would be able to explain it better than I did.


Gustard DDC-U18:
I2S output: PCM 32bit 44.1-768kHz, DSD64-DSD512
$474 Amazon

Edit: No likes?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

It's difficult to find anything higher than DSD64 (SACD) in mainstream recordings. There are a very few sites that sell upsampled DSD and maybe one that records in DSD128 or higher. So yeah, technically you could call a DDC that can _only_ do PCM 384 / DXD and DSD512 a bottleneck. But that's only in theory, since there is basically no music to buy. And the way things are going, it's doubtful there will ever be any music at those rates.

I realize some people are upsampling, so as @sajunky suggested, let the DAC do it, not hqplayer...


----------



## dougms3

gimmeheadroom said:


> It's difficult to find anything higher than DSD64 (SACD) in mainstream recordings. There are a very few sites that sell upsampled DSD and maybe one that records in DSD128 or higher. So yeah, technically you could call a DDC that can _only_ do PCM 384 / DXD and DSD512 a bottleneck. But that's only in theory, since there is basically no music to buy. And the way things are going, it's doubtful there will ever be any music at those rates.
> 
> I realize some people are upsampling, so as @sajunky suggested, let the DAC do it, not hqplayer...


I think I'm one of the few people that uses DSD upsampling.  

To use it, the dac has to natively support dsd512 and you need software like Jriver that can process dsd512.  HQ player is the only program that I know of that supports upsampling over dsd512.  It does sound better but not by that much from what I can tell.  Not a fan of HQ player's GUI.


----------



## gimmeheadroom

It's hard to tell what HQPlayer is capable of but it does win the award for the worst, most unusable UI of anything I've seen in a long, long time.


----------



## shwnwllms

dougms3 said:


> I think I'm one of the few people that uses DSD upsampling.



HQPlayer user here


----------



## sajunky

gimmeheadroom said:


> It's difficult to find anything higher than DSD64 (SACD) in mainstream recordings. There are a very few sites that sell upsampled DSD and maybe one that records in DSD128 or higher. So yeah, technically you could call a DDC that can _only_ do PCM 384 / DXD and DSD512 a bottleneck. But that's only in theory, since there is basically no music to buy. And the way things are going, it's doubtful there will ever be any music at those rates.
> 
> I realize some people are upsampling, so as @sajunky suggested, let the DAC do it, not hqplayer...


I would rather do it on PC. Assuming upsampling increase information, but it doesn't. It is helping Delta-Sigma users like Chord or some different brands, but only because it bypass inferior processing on a DAC, which also include extensive noise shaping.

As Denafrips users are mostly R2R fans, such practice do not help. There are time settling limits for R2R ladder. When frequency increases, energy of switching glitches is increasing. Denafrips upsample internally everything to the maximum ladder frequency, some did measurements and found that Ares peaks the highest, upper models upsample to the lower frequency than Ares. Why it happen and why users have no control over upsampling?

As I expressed it in my first reply, I wouldn't put presure on Denafrips to upgrade their DDC, but rather request to have control over internal upsampling rate in Denafrips DACs.


----------



## shwnwllms (Jul 5, 2022)

sajunky said:


> I would rather do it on PC. Assuming upsampling increase information, but it doesn't. It is helping Delta-Sigma users like Chord or some different brands, but only because it bypass inferior processing on a DAC, which also include extensive noise shaping.



Chord users are one use case but only because Chord DACs decimate DSD by converting it to PCM and back again. This is why Chord users upsample using PCM only

No one really claims it increases information, not unless they are trolling anyway. It does help timbre, transients & space with the more intensive filters and modulators, which require more processing power than consumer DACs offer. Depending on the types of filters used it can clean up artifacts from lossy formats and push them above nyquist (out of the audible range) thereby cleaning up the signal further.



> As Denafrips users are mostly R2R fans, such practice do not help. There are time settling limits for R2R ladder. When frequency increases, energy of switching glitches is increasing. Denafrips upsample internally everything to the maximum ladder frequency, some did measurements and found that Ares peaks the highest, upper models upsample to the lower frequency than Ares. Why it happen and why users have no control over upsampling?



This isn’t exactly accurate, for DSD Denafrips R2R DACs like the Pontus use 32 level multi bit conversion (32 step FIR filter - 6 Bit DSD). This is similar to what Jussi uses in his own DSD DAC the Signalyst DSC1. So with Denafrips DACs you have the option of R2R PCM or upsampling to DSD. I choose the latter and I’m very pleased with the results. Also upsampling to DSD completely bypasses any upsampling in the Pontus (more so than their NOS mode does)


----------



## CAJames

It's funny, I have files up to DSD 256, but since I got my Terminator 2 and Gaia Red Book 16/44 sounds so good I've stopped chasing hirez. I do go back and forth between upsampling 44 to 176 KHz, either in Foobar2000 or Jays CDT2 (not in the DAC), but that's all I need, today.


----------



## S Crowther

CAJames said:


> It's funny, I have files up to DSD 256, but since I got my Terminator 2 and Gaia Red Book 16/44 sounds so good I've stopped chasing hirez. I do go back and forth between upsampling 44 to 176 KHz, either in Foobar2000 or Jays CDT2 (not in the DAC), but that's all I need, today.


Any one have any info on the OS (I guess it stands for oversampling) option on the Terminator?


----------



## gimmeheadroom

sajunky said:


> I would rather do it on PC. Assuming upsampling increase information, but it doesn't. It is helping Delta-Sigma users like Chord or some different brands, but only because it bypass inferior processing on a DAC, which also include extensive noise shaping.
> 
> As Denafrips users are mostly R2R fans, such practice do not help. There are time settling limits for R2R ladder. When frequency increases, energy of switching glitches is increasing. Denafrips upsample internally everything to the maximum ladder frequency, some did measurements and found that Ares peaks the highest, upper models upsample to the lower frequency than Ares. Why it happen and why users have no control over upsampling?
> 
> As I expressed it in my first reply, I wouldn't put presure on Denafrips to upgrade their DDC, but rather request to have control over internal upsampling rate in Denafrips DACs.



Oh, I did not understand that from your earlier post, thanks for clarifying 



CAJames said:


> It's funny, I have files up to DSD 256, but since I got my Terminator 2 and Gaia Red Book 16/44 sounds so good I've stopped chasing hirez. I do go back and forth between upsampling 44 to 176 KHz, either in Foobar2000 or Jays CDT2 (not in the DAC), but that's all I need, today.



I have read this sentiment often from people who have good gear. Redbook can sound incredible out of a good system, but my ears prefer SACD (and SACD rips) even more.


----------



## searchingtom

*I am looking for some advice on which DDC to match with Pontus II?*

I have a new Pontus II and wonder which DDC would be the best match for it?  Would the Gaia bring out the most or what should be the best match ? 

Also would it be better to invest in the Terminator Plus instead of adding a DDC to the Pontus II ?

I listed mostly to string quartet and soft jazz music.

_*I really appreciate any insights you have to offer.*_

Please let me know what you think.


----------



## sajunky (Jul 30, 2022)

searchingtom said:


> I have a new Pontus II and wonder which DDC would be the best match for it? Would the Gaia bring out the most or what should be the best match ?


It works like that: upper model, better protection. Gaia features are only fully utilised with T+/TII. Pontus don't use it, so other brands are also matching well. DI-20 gives very good protection considering price. DI-20HE is one of the best DDC you can get.


searchingtom said:


> Also would it be better to invest in the Terminator Plus instead of adding a DDC to the Pontus II ?


It can't answer this question, but want to point out that with T+, Gaia is matching the best for a specific clock synchronisation feature. And it is worth to pair if you can afford such combination.


----------



## searchingtom

sajunky said:


> It works like that: upper model, better protection. Gaia features are only fully utilised with T+/TII. Pontus don't use it, so other brands are also matching well. DI-20 gives very good protection considering price. DI-20HE is one of the best DDC you can get.
> 
> It can't answer this question, but want to point out that with T+, Gaia is matching the best for a specific clock synchronisation feature. And it is worth to pair if you can afford such combination.


Thank you for responding.   will dig into the DI-20.


----------



## Haidar

I am curious how the three new Musician Audio DDCs i2s outputs compare to the Gaia i2s output.

Phoenix: http://www.musician-audio.com/en/col.jsp?id=142

Pisces: http://www.musician-audio.com/en/col.jsp?id=147

Leo: http://www.musician-audio.com/en/col.jsp?id=144


----------



## CAJames (Jul 30, 2022)

searchingtom said:


> *I am looking for some advice on which DDC to match with Pontus II?*
> 
> I have a new Pontus II and wonder which DDC would be the best match for it?  Would the Gaia bring out the most or what should be the best match ?
> 
> ...



IMO you are better off buying a better DAC, like a T+ or even a T2 than adding a DDC to the Potus. It seems like each step up the Denafrips line is a nice increase in performance for the price. My experience is I got a T2, and it sounded great. Later I added a Gaia and that improved the sound even more. Also FWIW Alvin at Vinshine says the Hermes is the best value for a DDC, I would have bought it instead of the Gaia except my T2 is silver and the Hermes only comes in black.


----------



## shafat777

searchingtom said:


> *I am looking for some advice on which DDC to match with Pontus II?*
> 
> I have a new Pontus II and wonder which DDC would be the best match for it?  Would the Gaia bring out the most or what should be the best match ?
> 
> ...


I personally use a Hermes DDC with my P2 and i couldnt be happier. Not only the ddc cleans the signal and makes everything sound clear. it also acts as a hub for connecting multiple dacs. Right now, I have the P2 connected via I2s and a Yggy connected via AES. I still have room to add one more dac, and thats what i consider value for the money. The Gaia will clearly be superior to the Hermes but in order to yield such results, the rest of the chain needs to be upgraded as well.., IMO. 

I think you should just pull the trigger on a Hermes and call it a day.


----------



## hsg120

Not to muddy the waters, but I agree with CAJames that you should invest in a better DAC, rather than buy a DAC/DDC combo. 

The DDC is nice as a digital hub, but I presume you're interested in it more for its potential sonic benefits. However, consider that if your DAC is galvanically isolated and uses an oven-controlled clock...than what's the argument for adding a DDC whose re-clocking ability is potentially no better than the DAC?

That said, I've owned a Gaia before, and I can attest to the quality and attention to detail of Denafrips' DDCs.


----------



## sajunky

hsg120 said:


> Not to muddy the waters, but I agree with CAJames that you should invest in a better DAC, rather than buy a DAC/DDC combo.
> 
> The DDC is nice as a digital hub, but I presume you're interested in it more for its potential sonic benefits. However, consider that if your DAC is galvanically isolated and uses an oven-controlled clock...


Pontus has no galvanic isolation on USB port, neither Venus, only T+/II has. These models will benefit the most from DDC, as all (I know) have USB port isolated. This is the most important function of DDC - not reclocking (in a case of asynchronous transfers reclocking doesn't make any sense), but protection from noise. 

DAC's that have USB port isolated do not benefit from DDC to the same level.


----------



## Smoothstereo

sajunky said:


> Pontus has no galvanic isolation on USB port, neither Venus, only T+/II has. These models will benefit the most from DDC, as all (I know) have USB port isolated. This is the most important function of DDC - not reclocking (in a case of asynchronous transfers reclocking doesn't make any sense), but protection from noise.
> 
> DAC's that have USB port isolated do not benefit from DDC to the same level.


I am confused, based on Denafrips website,it says Pontus2 has "Galvanic Isolation of all digital inputs by means of high speed optocouplers." So is the usb galvanically isolated or not?


----------



## sajunky

Smoothstereo said:


> I am confused, based on Denafrips website,it says Pontus2 has "Galvanic Isolation of all digital inputs by means of high speed optocouplers." So is the usb galvanically isolated or not?


You can test yourself, according to this post.


----------



## Smoothstereo

sajunky said:


> You can test yourself, according to this post.


Thanks for the info. I guess the real question is , is the USB connector itself galvanically isolated or not. The digital signals from digital inputs seem to be though per the website. Best to get clarity from Alvin.


----------



## hsg120

sajunky said:


> Pontus has no galvanic isolation on USB port, neither Venus, only T+/II has. These models will benefit the most from DDC, as all (I know) have USB port isolated. This is the most important function of DDC - not reclocking (in a case of asynchronous transfers reclocking doesn't make any sense), but protection from noise.
> 
> DAC's that have USB port isolated do not benefit from DDC to the same level.



Okay, but my point was--why not just buy a better DAC that already has galvanic isolation, and skip the DDC altogether? Seems like that would make more sense than buying two separate (expensive) devices.

For instance, you could buy a Venus DAC and a Gaia DDC, and you'd pay more than you would for a Terminator II, but you'd still have arguably inferior hardware. 

Or, you could buy an even lower-tier, Pontus DAC along with a Gaia DDC for less cost than a Terminator II, but again, I'd argue this is not a cost-effective solution unless you really must have a Denafrips DAC. 

For instance, why not just buy a Holo Audio Spring DAC which is R2R, measures phenomenally well, and already has galvanic isolation built-in? Or pay half that price and buy a Singxer SDA-6 if delta-sigma is an option?

Just not sure I understand the rationale of building your system around a DDC, unless you're using it specifically as a digital hub.


----------



## sajunky

hsg120 said:


> For instance, why not just buy a Holo Audio Spring DAC which is R2R, measures phenomenally well, and already has galvanic isolation built-in?


It measures incredibly well, like Delta-Sigma and sounds like Delta-Sigma. No, Holo Audio is not on my list....

As for saving by buying better DAC with isolation, etc., I can assure you, it is not saving, as with better sound our ears increase sensitivity, you wll end up buying DDC anyway and once it is done, you will find that external clock is helping too. Then power conditioners, and so on. 

My suggestion is to get a DAC that sound good and has the best upgrade features.


----------



## Ufanco

Reading through this tread it seems like the iris would not add much improvement to the ares ii. I just purchased the ares ii and due to health really can’t afford the buy another DAC. 

I can afford to buy the iris but if the general impression is not too. Just wondering if the people that added the iris to ares ii feel it was or wasn’t worth it?

Looking at options to improve my system (in signature) and am not sure where best to spend money. Any advice is appreciated on this.


----------



## shwnwllms

Ufanco said:


> Reading through this tread it seems like the iris would not add much improvement to the ares ii. I just purchased the ares ii and due to health really can’t afford the buy another DAC.
> 
> I can afford to buy the iris but if the general impression is not too. Just wondering if the people that added the iris to ares ii feel it was or wasn’t worth it?
> 
> Looking at options to improve my system (in signature) and am not sure where best to spend money. Any advice is appreciated on this.



I would skip the Iris. It doesn’t make sense until the Pontus II since the Ares II doesn’t have I2S

You’d be better off adding a W4S recovery to the Ares II as a stop gap then saving for a better DAC before trying to add a DDC


----------



## S Crowther

Ufanco said:


> Reading through this tread it seems like the iris would not add much improvement to the ares ii. I just purchased the ares ii and due to health really can’t afford the buy another DAC.
> 
> I can afford to buy the iris but if the general impression is not too. Just wondering if the people that added the iris to ares ii feel it was or wasn’t worth it?
> 
> Looking at options to improve my system (in signature) and am not sure where best to spend money. Any advice is appreciated on this.


The  Iris has two functions: DDC and reclocking. As you have no use of DDC with the Ares II to change to I2s input, why not look at the Denafrips Terra or Aether which just do the  reclocking? In fact I believe their reclocking is better than in the Iris.
Improving the clocks ought to bring a noticeable improvement to the ARES II. 
I suggest you ask Alvin Ng at sales@vinshineaudio.com fit his opinion.


----------



## CAJames

S Crowther said:


> The  Iris has two functions: DDC and reclocking. As you have no use of DDC with the Ares II to change to I2s input, why not look at the Denafrips Terra or Aether which just do the  reclocking? In fact I believe their reclocking is better than in the Iris.
> Improving the clocks ought to bring a noticeable improvement to the ARES II.
> I suggest you ask Alvin Ng at sales@vinshineaudio.com fit his opinion.



I may be wrong but I think only the DDCs accept clock input. The DACs do not.


----------



## Ufanco

Thanks all for helping me decide to hold off on the iris for now. Just bought new iem’s so money is a tad tight and if not going to make a huge difference it's not worth spending the money on.


----------



## S Crowther

CAJames said:


> I may be wrong but I think only the DDCs accept clock input. The DACs do not.


Suggest check with Alvin.


----------



## Garak

hsg120 said:


> Okay, but my point was--why not just buy a better DAC that already has galvanic isolation, and skip the DDC altogether? Seems like that would make more sense than buying two separate (expensive) devices.
> 
> For instance, you could buy a Venus DAC and a Gaia DDC, and you'd pay more than you would for a Terminator II, but you'd still have arguably inferior hardware.
> 
> ...


Galvanic isolation isn't binary, where it either works, or it doesn't. It is my understanding that it can't be perfect, and noise always creeps in, at least that's what every reviewer who has ever talked about DDCs has said, British Audiophile, Hans, Goldensound etc etc. 

Having said that, depending on the comparison, I'd probably get a Termi2 over Venus/Gaia, but it also depends on what you're connecting your DAC to. If you're plugging things directly into a PC, you might benefit more from a DDC. If not, you might benefit more from a better DAC.


----------



## hsg120

Garak said:


> Galvanic isolation isn't binary, where it either works, or it doesn't. It is my understanding that it can't be perfect, and noise always creeps in, at least that's what every reviewer who has ever talked about DDCs has said, British Audiophile, Hans, Goldensound etc etc.



"Noise always creeps in"

Hmm, okay.

Is that what "every reviewer who has ever talked about DDCs" says? Because if they're all in unanimous agreement, then surely there's ample evidence available which demonstrate galvanic isolated DACs failing to eliminate incoming ground noise. Can you share some with me? Because I've not seen it, unless you're talking about absolutely infinitesimal (i.e. inconsequential, inaudible) levels of 'noise'.


----------



## Garak (Aug 6, 2022)

hsg120 said:


> "Noise always creeps in"
> 
> Hmm, okay.
> 
> Is that what "every reviewer who has ever talked about DDCs" says? Because if they're all in unanimous agreement, then surely there's ample evidence available which demonstrate galvanic isolated DACs failing to eliminate incoming ground noise. Can you share some with me? Because I've not seen it, unless you're talking about absolutely infinitesimal (i.e. inconsequential, inaudible) levels of 'noise'.


Go look up measurements to DACs with galvanic isolation and see if they have noise. Should be easy enough.

Edit: or just skip all that and look at DDC measurements instead. They should all be perfect right?


----------



## hsg120 (Aug 6, 2022)

Garak said:


> Go look up measurements to DACs with galvanic isolation and see if they have noise. Should be easy enough. BF2 is galvanically isolated, Gustard x26pro is as well, just to name the 2 I’ve had.



Wait...lol, but I'm the one who's skeptical xD

You claimed, "noise always creeps in". I don't believe that to be true. So, respectfully, why would I spend time looking for evidence that I don't believe exists? If it's easy enough to find, then I would greatly appreciate you linking any of the evidence you've seen to date that shows a commercial DAC's implementation of galvanic isolation was in any way ineffective at preventing ground noise.

And I think you may be mistaken--I don't believe the Gustard X26 Pro has any galvanic isolation. I also owned one, and I did several months of research before buying it. The lack of isolation was one of several reasons why I sold it...

Edit: Just saw your edit--you are aware there are various sources of electrical noise in DAC measurements, and that any presence of noise can't simply be attributed to ground pollution. Right?


----------



## Garak

hsg120 said:


> Wait...lol, but I'm the one who's skeptical xD
> 
> You claimed, "noise always creeps in". I don't believe that to be true. So, respectfully, why would I spend time looking for evidence that I don't believe exists? If it's easy enough to find, then I would greatly appreciate you linking any of the evidence you've seen to date that shows a commercial DAC's implementation of galvanic isolation was in any way ineffective at preventing ground noise.
> 
> And I think you may be mistaken--I don't believe the Gustard X26 Pro has any galvanic isolation. I also owned one, and I did several months of research before buying it. The lack of isolation was one of several reasons why I sold it...


I didn't claim anything. I have not done measurements of things. I'm simply repeating the results of people who have, people I've literally named. You can go look at those, or you can not. That is your choice. 

You're claiming anything with galvanic isolation can't produce noise, ok cool. If I had to bet though, I bet the next thing you'll say is, it doesn't produce *audible* noise, am I right? Yea this isn't ASR, I'm not getting involved in that conversation but I'm sure they'd love to have one with you if you take it there.


----------



## hsg120 (Aug 6, 2022)

Garak said:


> I didn't claim anything. I have not done measurements of things. I'm simply repeating the results of people who have, people I've literally named. You can go look at those, or you can not. That is your choice.
> 
> You're claiming anything with galvanic isolation can't produce noise, ok cool. If I had to bet though, I bet the next thing you'll say is, it doesn't produce *audible* noise, am I right? Yea this isn't ASR, I'm not getting involved in that conversation but I'm sure they'd love to have one with you if you take it there.


If you go back and re-read my posts, I already said "audible noise". I felt I had to use that caveat because there's no such thing as an absolutely perfect electrical circuit, let alone a perfect measuring device.

You claimed a lot of things, and then failed to back up any of it with any actual evidence when I asked for it. You also later implied that any measurable noise must be a result of ground interference, which just isn't true. I think therein lies the disconnect...


----------



## rreynolds

Any experience in the group with Kimber D60 BNC cables? Picking up a pair today to replace the $80 Geistnote ones I've been using for almost a year. Have read BNC'c provide a big difference given the equipment in use. Currently using the Terminator + and Gaia DDC.


----------



## CAJames

rreynolds said:


> Any experience in the group with Kimber D60 BNC cables? Picking up a pair today to replace the $80 Geistnote ones I've been using for almost a year. Have read BNC'c provide a big difference given the equipment in use. Currently using the Terminator + and Gaia DDC.


No, but I’ll be interested to hear what you think. I’m using cheap silver cables from eBay and haven’t really felt like experimenting with high end BNCs. Until now. I have a T2 + Gaia FWIW.


----------



## dougms3

Garak said:


> Galvanic isolation isn't binary, where it either works, or it doesn't. It is my understanding that it can't be perfect, and noise always creeps in, at least that's what every reviewer who has ever talked about DDCs has said, British Audiophile, Hans, Goldensound etc etc.
> 
> Having said that, depending on the comparison, I'd probably get a Termi2 over Venus/Gaia, but it also depends on what you're connecting your DAC to. If you're plugging things directly into a PC, you might benefit more from a DDC. If not, you might benefit more from a better DAC.


I have read about this as well. 

I thought galvanic isolation was binary but it is not the case.  There are levels to galvanic isolation and it could also be compounding, meaning more than one may have a benefit.  And even if it is galvanically isolated, it doesn't mean its electromagnetically isolated.  

Still learning about this stuff but the reading through the articles, indicates that galvanically isolated does mean there is complete cut off from noise transfer.  Some of it does get past the goalie.


----------



## rreynolds

Didn't expect these to glow like reflector strips on a pair of Jordans. Beautiful cables and the connectors are top notch. Warming up the amp now for some Sunday evening listening impressions.


----------



## BlakeT (Aug 8, 2022)

rreynolds said:


> Any experience in the group with Kimber D60 BNC cables? Picking up a pair today to replace the $80 Geistnote ones I've been using for almost a year. Have read BNC'c provide a big difference given the equipment in use. Currently using the Terminator + and Gaia DDC.



I had Kimber D60 in my system with Terminator Plus connected to Gaia (Kimber Kable is local to me).  The D60 made audible sonic differences that I found to be noticeable and definitely an improvement over generic.  I would highly recommend D60.

I then went further down the rabbit hole replacing the Kimber with Stealth Sextet and this cable is probably the most impressive cable I've ever purchased (leading me to other Stealth cable purchases since I was so impressed).  Having said that, the cost of the Sextet is prohibitive so I am not really generally recommending it unless you want to go nuts.

Kimber D60 is a terrific choice.


----------



## George Hincapie

Ufanco said:


> Reading through this tread it seems like the iris would not add much improvement to the ares ii. I just purchased the ares ii and due to health really can’t afford the buy another DAC.
> 
> I can afford to buy the iris but if the general impression is not too. Just wondering if the people that added the iris to ares ii feel it was or wasn’t worth it?
> 
> Looking at options to improve my system (in signature) and am not sure where best to spend money. Any advice is appreciated on this.



Michael Longoria disagrees.

https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-iris-usb-digital-to-digital-converter/


----------



## roderickvd

It depends on the input. USB? No improvement over going into the Ares directly. S/PDIF? It'll be better but I'd still save my money to upgrade to a Pontus sometime later.


----------



## maiieu (Oct 7, 2022)

My Hermes was working flawlessly for last 6 months. Today i tried to test a new Usb cable, after that my PC did not recognized the Hermes anymore (both via the new and old usb cable).

I tried to reinstall the usb Driver, tried different usb ports on PC (both 2.0 and 3.0) but none works.

Despite PC does not recognize the Hermes, the 44.1k led still lights up when I connect an usb cable to the Hermes and light off when usb cable disconnected. Weird!

Note:
- Other inputs of the Hermes such as optical, coax... work fine.
- Tried usb input on the Pontus 2 dac, the PC instantly recognizes the Pontus.

Did anyone face the same issue? Any helps would be great. Thank you a lot.


----------



## S Crowther

roderickvd said:


> It depends on the input. USB? No improvement over going into the Ares directly. S/PDIF? It'll be better but I'd still save my money to upgrade to a Pontus sometime later.


I have compared connecting my MBP by USB to the T+ directly and connecting it to the Gaia by USB and then connecting the Gaia to the T+ by  i2s. Obvious difference in sound. Using the Gaia the sound is smoother and more focussed.


----------



## George Hincapie

For those of you connecting DDC to Denafrips DAC via I2S, which cable are you using?


----------



## rreynolds

George Hincapie said:


> For those of you connecting DDC to Denafrips DAC via I2S, which cable are you using?


Tubulus Concentus. Very good tonal density and detail compared to others I've tried.


----------



## CAJames

George Hincapie said:


> For those of you connecting DDC to Denafrips DAC via I2S, which cable are you using?


 
DH Labs HDMI 2.1 Seems like a really good value. I'm using a Tubusus Argentus USB cable and have considered upgrading the HDMI, but it doesn't seem like a priority.


----------



## centuriones

maiieu said:


> My Hermes was working flawlessly for last 6 months. Today i tried to test a new Usb cable, after that my PC did not recognized the Hermes anymore (both via the new and old usb cable).
> 
> I tried to reinstall the usb Driver, tried different usb ports on PC (both 2.0 and 3.0) but none works.
> 
> ...


It also happened to me with the same problems, after about six months the USB card burned out. After contacting Denafrips I sent the Hermes to the service center. The Hermes was returned to me after repairing the USB board and another component that had burned out.
I thought I was just the unlucky one.


----------



## George Hincapie

CAJames said:


> DH Labs HDMI 2.1 Seems like a really good value. I'm using a Tubusus Argentus USB cable and have considered upgrading the HDMI, but it doesn't seem like a priority.


I've been wondering about DH Labs more generally, have read good things. Currently using Blue Jeans and considering a switch.


----------



## kingoftown1

I have the DH Labs HDMI -- for me, it was a bit better than the Belden FE.  Not as good as the Furutech HF-X NCF but that's expected given the price difference.


----------



## S-S-MR

maiieu said:


> Today i tried to test a new Usb cable, after that my PC did not recognized the Hermes anymore (both via the new and old usb cable).


Is your new USB cable unpowered? Denafrips USB modules require the power line.

https://www.denafrips.com/support


> USB 2.0 Cable
> DENAFRIPS DAC USB receiver is powered by its internal regulated, low noise, low ripple, high speed linear power supply.
> 
> However, it needs the USB cable to supply the +5vdc as a logic signal to trigger the internal power supply to the USB receiver. This design is intentional for best sound quality consideration.
> ...


----------



## maiieu

S-S-MR said:


> Is your new USB cable unpowered? Denafrips USB modules require the power line.
> 
> https://www.denafrips.com/support


The new USB cable is powered. The USB board of the Hermes was dead. Very poor design.


----------



## Smoothstereo

There were some tips that Denafrips mentioned somewhere on the website or manual, can't remember exactly. When pressing buttons on the dac or perhaps even swapping cables in your case (especially in dry/low humidity climates), to touch the dac metal case first to avoid electric shock. Wondering if you had encountered this scenario.

But sorry to hear about the bad news. Email Alvin, I am sure this is covered under warranty.


----------



## simon740

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/so/40...id=53397191-0d55-4ca9-8b1c-e33d41d0cddb#/main


----------



## sajunky

Smoothstereo said:


> When pressing buttons on the dac or perhaps even swapping cables in your case (especially in dry/low humidity climates), to touch the dac metal case first to avoid electric shock. Wondering if you had encountered this scenario.


When you touch a metal case you may feel sensation, but it is safe (assuming having a 3-prong power plug with a ground pin). Keep touching a case while attaching plugs. USB is hot-swap, it can be attached while device is powered on, but this is a standard procedure for all home equipment.


----------



## Smoothstereo

Anyone compared the IRIS and Hermes DDC on the same dac to see what differences can be heard by stepping up to the higher model?


----------



## George Hincapie

Smoothstereo said:


> Anyone compared the IRIS and Hermes DDC on the same dac to see what differences can be heard by stepping up to the higher model?


I am also interested. Of course the big issue is Ares II doesn't have I2S in, so we need someone with Pontus to answer really.


----------



## BlakeT (Oct 19, 2022)

Smoothstereo said:


> Anyone compared the IRIS and Hermes DDC on the same dac to see what differences can be heard by stepping up to the higher model?



I have a Gaia and an Iris, and still use them both in different setups. 

My personal subjective impressions having A/B'ed them on the same DAC/system:  These DDC's don't change tonality.  Your system will sound the same except that....

Both of these DDC's are detail/imaging/sound stage/holography/background blackness enhancers. 

Details pop out more clearly, imaging becomes more precise.  The layering of the instruments/vocals on the sound stage seems more precise, separated and defined, and you get a blacker background.  Both the Gaia and Iris work wonders in the above departments (on a relative audiophile scale), the improvements in each of these elements is simply more noticeable and apparent with the Gaia as compared to the Iris.  To me, the extra money is worth it, but I'm obsessively nit picky.

I've bought, compared, sold many DDC's over the years and Denafrips DDC's are really good.  Before Denafrips, my favorite DDC was the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB, but the Gaia bumped it off the top shelf, and the Alpha is an amazing unit.  Even the relatively humble Iris is a great buy and recommended.   I've never heard the Hermes, but I know Alvin recommends it over the Gaia unless you want to push things to the bleeding edge.


----------



## Smoothstereo (Oct 19, 2022)

BlakeT said:


> I have a Gaia and an Iris, and still use them both in different setups.
> 
> My personal subjective impressions having A/B'ed them on the same DAC/system:  These DDC's don't change tonality.  Your system will sound the same except that....
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. Does adding the Iris or Gaia change the listener's perspective? For example, like do they put you in row 5 with the DDC, and without it you are sitting in row 10? If so, does the more expensive DDC put you closer to the performance or further away compared to just using the DAC with no DDC. Or do the DDCs don't alter that trait.


----------



## BlakeT

Smoothstereo said:


> Does adding the Iris or Gaia change the listener's perspective?



I don't notice any change in the perspective.


----------



## Smoothstereo

I saw a YouTube reviewer (Passion for Sound) on his DDC review, mentioned that the USB cable used from source to DDC is not as important as the I2S cable from DDC to the DAC. So sounds like if one had to invest money for a higher quality cable, would be to focus on getting a better I2S cable for that part of the connection.

Did you guys had that same experience or thought process?


----------



## George Hincapie

Smoothstereo said:


> I saw a YouTube reviewer (Passion for Sound) on his DDC review, mentioned that the USB cable used from source to DDC is not as important as the I2S cable from DDC to the DAC. So sounds like if one had to invest money for a higher quality cable, would be to focus on getting a better I2S cable for that part of the connection.
> 
> Did you guys had that same experience or thought process?


Makes sense.


----------



## sajunky

The same. HDMI cable doesn't need to be expensive, just find the shortest one matching your layout and without wires on unused pins. These two things are important.


----------



## CAJames

Smoothstereo said:


> I saw a YouTube reviewer (Passion for Sound) on his DDC review, mentioned that the USB cable used from source to DDC is not as important as the I2S cable from DDC to the DAC. So sounds like if one had to invest money for a higher quality cable, would be to focus on getting a better I2S cable for that part of the connection.
> 
> Did you guys had that same experience or thought process?



I didn't plan it this way but my USB cable (Tubulus Argentus) is nicer than my I2S (DH Labs 2.1). I've thought about upgrading the I2S but it doesn't seem like a priority. A long time ago I saw either a post or video from Alvin and I believe he uses fairly modest Audioquest cables, I forget which model exactly.


----------



## Powermankw

So I have upgraded my whole chain and would say my Pontus 2 is my weak link. Although I'm not complaining. I started thinking about getting a Venus 2...that would be reasonable for what I have. Heck Terminator would play in my system, but I'm not paying for that. 

But then I see Hermes... Read the thread... What would be a bigger upgrade... A Hermes, or a Venus? (to add not entirely thrilled with getting more cables) 

I have a mercury streamer with internal M2 drive. Internet is hardwired with decent cable, and I2S out to Pontus 2. I would never use computer or USB. 

Thanks.


----------



## CAJames (Oct 30, 2022)

Tough call. Since you already have I2S into your DAC I’d get with the Venus (or a Terminator). But I don’t think you would be wrong with either, and can still get the other later.


----------



## Powermankw

CAJames said:


> Tough call. Since you already have I2S into your DAC I’d get with the Venus (or a Terminator). But I don’t think you would be wrong with either, and can still get the other later.


Roughly speaking, would the gains be the same magnitude for either? Not everything equal... Just generally?


----------



## sajunky (Oct 31, 2022)

Powermankw said:


> I have a mercury streamer with internal M2 drive. Internet is hardwired with decent cable, and I2S out to Pontus 2. I would never use computer or USB.


What do you mean decent Ethernet cable? You can use a standard UTP patch cable, no problem.

I am not sure Pontus is a weak link. It has better oscilators than streamer. Not saying that it makes a big difference, just for example. Did you try compare AES connection with other plugs (HDMI) disconnected?

I think you can do more with streamer. Disconnect Ethernet cable and try a WiFi extender on a short UTP cable (long enough to reach extender plugged into your power extension box that both streamer and a DAC use), cost $10-$15 like on this link. It can be any, but my preference is without power cable, just a plain box with a plug. Configure extender as a wired Ethernet adapter. There is no need to adjust settings on the streamer and most of WiFi extenders will configure automatically for this mode. If there are improvements, it means a noise is coming from LAN connection. I don't need to add that internal WiFi radio of the streamer should be disabled.


----------



## CAJames (Oct 31, 2022)

Powermankw said:


> Roughly speaking, would the gains be the same magnitude for either? Not everything equal... Just generally?



First, let me be clear that I don't claim any special authority or experience. What I'm saying is mostly based on reading posts on this and another site. So very much FWIW/JMO/YMMV. But I will  give you my experience too, also very much FWIW.

My impression is that adding a DDC to an Ares/Pontus class DAC is (ballpark) like moving at least one up the Denafrips DAC line. But that is for people with USB connections. I don't know about anyone with a I2S connection adding a DDC, that is what is new to me. And now that I think about it the Denafrips DDCs don't even have an I2S input so this probably makes the whole discussion moot.

My personal experience is this: I don't stream, I mostly spin CDs (via AES/EBU) but have a growing collection of downloads and rips I play from a (dedicated, tweaked) Windows laptop via USB. I replaced my previous (pretty nice) DAC with a Terminator 2 and was blown away by the improvement. So I got a Gaia (I would have preferred a Hermes but my DAC is silver and Hermes only comes in black....). Adding the Gaia via I2S was another incremental step up. I had ordered BNC cables to sync the clock between the DDC and DAC but they were hung up in the supply chain so I listened to the unsync'd Gaia for a couple of weeks. When the BNC cables arrived that was another small, but welcome improvement.

Finally, I'll add I agree your DAC may not be your weak link. Several other online friends who do stream have reported big improvements by upgrading their ethernet connection. One thing almost everyone agrees on is switch mode power supplies (SMPS) close to your streamer/DAC/amp need to be avoided at all costs. Replacing them with linear power supplies is usually a nice upgrade. Some of them are using fiber and media converters to connect their streamer back to the "main switch" and a couple of others have recently added an EtherREGEN switch in front of their streamers and reported significant improvements. Managing the network at a mid-major research university was my day job for several years and either because or in spite of that I want nothing to do with networking when it comes to my music  .


----------



## Powermankw

Thanks guys, you give na a lot to think about. 

In general, some agree than WiFi can sound better. Me... I just believe a wired connection is better. I use an audioquest forest ether net cable. Nothing high dollar, just decent. My streamer has a LPS. I2S to Pontus is typically considered best... And I have no need to use USB and add boxes to fix it. 

I will have to try wifi to know. Right now broadband modem is next to stack. Even if it stayed, no need for extender. I assume that is for in general to improve signal.

Now I have a cheap Panamax surge/filter outlet (4). I have wondered if it's time to do better power supply. I can get a better one for streamer... But pontus and amp have good power supplies... So I don't give it much thought. 

As it stands... I just got some Dynaudio Heritage Specials. All my cables Istreched for and are all good. No more cables. And next couple days I'm trying to finish covering my room in insulation. The little bit if done has already cleaned up a lot. So once I'm done with room and enjoying... If I can't hear a difference in gear there isn't one.... Meaning I can try some of these things and find out. I am certainly good with getting best internet front end. 

The M2 drive playing direct from Mercury to Pontus... Yes, it is better than streaming, but both are fantastic. I am using Volumio, but have played with Lumin, Audiarvana, and configured Gentoo Player... But not the new version.. Yet. That too I was going to figure out once I'm done with room.


----------



## sajunky

Powermankw said:


> I will have to try wifi to know. Right now broadband modem is next to stack. Even if it stayed, no need for extender. I assume that is for in general to improve signal.


I knew, you were using shielded Ethernet cable.  WiFi extender is not used in this case for extending coverage, but to break ground loops coming from Ethernet devices.

What else is connected to your broadband modem? What is feeding a modem: cable, fiber or wireless?

I see that when you play local files, quality is better. I forgotten, this test is quicker. It shouldn't be that, you can fix it.


----------



## Powermankw

sajunky said:


> I knew, you were using shielded Ethernet cable.  WiFi extender is not used in this case for extending coverage, but to break ground loops coming from Ethernet devices.
> 
> What else is connected to your broadband modem? What is feeding a modem: cable, fiber or wireless?
> 
> I see that when you play local files, quality is better. I forgotten, this test is quicker. It shouldn't be that, you can fix it.


Coax cable feeding broadband modem. Mercury is only wired connection. It also runs VOIP phone line, so phone is hooked up. That's it. 

So you are saying local files should not be better, and if streaming isn't equal, it should be improved. Most everyone with a Mercury, or Pi device thinks local files are always better which is why I wanted it. It's not night and day, and it might just be in my head... But I think it's better. But what I really love is actions are instantaneous. Drive files output I2S straight to DAC... I love it. Want more files.


----------



## Powermankw

So is it still generally true that the biggest improvement from a DDC is for USB from computer? That I2S sees less of an improvement? I may yet still consider one, I just have to keep that in mind.


----------



## CAJames

Powermankw said:


> So is it still generally true that the biggest improvement from a DDC is for USB from computer? That I2S sees less of an improvement? I may yet still consider one, I just have to keep that in mind.



Denafrips DDCs don't have an I2S input so to start you'd need to find a DDC that does. And I'm no help with that but maybe others are.


----------



## sajunky

Powermankw said:


> So is it still generally true that the biggest improvement from a DDC is for USB from computer? That I2S sees less of an improvement? I may yet still consider one, I just have to keep that in mind.


DDC, yes. The one that do not reclock USB port, but keep asynchronous data delivery. It gives a highest performance from internal oscilators. I don't need to recommend DI-20HE.

Improvement is always great with PC source, smaller when USB host is a low noise streamer like yours. Performance can be further improved if there is 10MHz clock port available.


----------



## DRHamp

I have the Hermes and a Pontus II - they work great together with both i2s and AES/EBU into the DAC.

I recently purchased an Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE.  Audio Mirror says the i2s implementation is using the psaudio i2s standard.  From what I've read, the psaudio i2s standard is 1 0 0 which I think is equivalent to mode 1 on the Hermes.  I know I can do trial & error to find out but would like to know if anyone can confirm  the 1 0 0 setting?


----------



## S Crowther

I have added the Denafrips Aether to the chain. Noticeable improvement in the sound. It connects to the Gaia using the clock cables that previously connected the Gaia to the T+ clock out. It replaces the clocks in the Gaia and the T+.


----------



## CAJames

S Crowther said:


> I have added the Denafrips Aether to the chain. Noticeable improvement in the sound. It connects to the Gaia using the clock cables that previously connected the Gaia to the T+ clock out. It replaces the clocks in the Gaia and the T+.



Thanks for posting, but I did not want to hear that   . What are you using for BNC cables?


----------



## S Crowther

CAJames said:


> Thanks for posting, but I did not want to hear that   . What are you using for BNC cables?


Custom made BNC cables from the local  Denafrips dealer in Hong Kong. Good.


----------



## Kamsang

Still Planning Gaia or Hermes I should go for to plus in to my Sonnet Pasithea.... Tough questions..Hope somebody can give a hand.


----------



## centuriones

Could you guys help me figure out what happens to my Hermes?
For the past few days my Hermes has begun to make a wobbly creaking sound, as if it were sizzling.
I've tried switching the connections from I2S to AES/EBU (I don't have coaxial cables) but the problem persists.


----------



## koso

centuriones said:


> Could you guys help me figure out what happens to my Hermes?
> For the past few days my Hermes has begun to make a wobbly creaking sound, as if it were sizzling.
> I've tried switching the connections from I2S to AES/EBU (I don't have coaxial cables) but the problem persists.


Contact Alvin from Vinshine Audio. He is the one who can help you best. Once I had similar problem with my Gaia, Alvin helped me quickly (SW update helped in my case).


----------



## centuriones

koso said:


> Contact Alvin from Vinshine Audio. He is the one who can help you best. Once I had similar problem with my Gaia, Alvin helped me quickly (SW update helped in my case).


Many thanks


----------



## Kiet Teoh

My setup as below.

1. streamer to hermes via USB
2. hermes to terminator 2 via I2s
2. terminator 2 back to hermes via 2xBNC
3. terminator 2 to preamp via XLR
4. preamp to poweramp via XLR
5. power amp to speaker

on 4/12/22, my terminator 2 can’t receive any signal from Hermes, i reset everything from the beginning as per the guide i found from the website & its works. FYI i did the same when i first received the hermes & it works until 4/12. But from 7/12, the same problem happen again, no sound. everything worked well from 4/12 to 6/12 & i didnt change anything on my setup/setting. Even if i turn off my hermes' clock still no sound. only way is to bypass hermes by conneting my steamer directly to terminator 2. 

May i know whats wrong on my setup? or it is due to any faulty on hermes? Did any encountered the same with me? Emailed Vinshine few days but no response at all.


----------



## centuriones

Alvin, could you intervene, please.
This is the second time my Hermes has broken down within a few months.


----------



## centuriones

Guys, does it seem normal to you that four days ago I wrote to the Denafrips assistance service and they still haven't answered me?


----------



## S Crowther

centuriones said:


> Guys, does it seem normal to you that four days ago I wrote to the Denafrips assistance service and they still haven't answered me?


What Denafrips email did you use?


----------



## Kiet Teoh

centuriones said:


> Guys, does it seem normal to you that four days ago I wrote to the Denafrips assistance service and they still haven't answered me?


I got a reply from Vinshine 2days ago & I sent them my Hermes & T2 for their checking. What I also is Alvin is currently away so maybe their reply abit slow. 

Anyway, may I know what’s wrong to your Hermes?


----------



## BlakeT

Historically, my customer service emails have always received a response within 1 or 2 days and the service provided has been exceptional.


----------



## Kiet Teoh

A quick update for my Hermes. Vincent from their technical lead has solved my Hermes. Almost immediate helps from him. Billion thanks to Vincent!


----------



## centuriones

S Crowther said:


> What Denafrips email did you use?


 used this email support@denafrips.com to contact Denafrips.
The replies I get are very slow.


----------



## centuriones

Kiet Teoh said:


> I got a reply from Vinshine 2days ago & I sent them my Hermes & T2 for their checking. What I also is Alvin is currently away so maybe their reply abit slow.
> 
> Anyway, may I know what’s wrong to your Hermes?


My Hermes make a distorted sound and creaks.
I followed all the directions that the technical support told me to do but the problem remains.
Clearly it's a hardware problem and I don't understand why they keep making me do useless tests and don't authorize the hospitalization of my Hermes for assistance.
I must add that it is the second time that the DDC has failed, previously the USB input and another card had failed, all in less than a year of purchase.
I am unlucky?


----------



## keenerz

I've had pretty great luck with their WhatApp chat, so if all else fails hit them up on WhatsApp.


----------



## S Crowther

centuriones said:


> used this email support@denafrips.com to contact Denafrips.
> The replies I get are very slow.


Yes. I find the same with that address. I get quick responses from sales@vinshine audio.com even for technical issues.


----------



## S Crowther

centuriones said:


> My Hermes make a distorted sound and creaks.
> I followed all the directions that the technical support told me to do but the problem remains.
> Clearly it's a hardware problem and I don't understand why they keep making me do useless tests and don't authorize the hospitalization of my Hermes for assistance.
> I must add that it is the second time that the DDC has failed, previously the USB input and another card had failed, all in less than a year of purchase.
> I am unlucky?


The DAC construction is modular. From my     experience their MO is to try and determine which module is faulty and then if possible send you a replacement module for you to install. Sending the Hermes in for replacement is the last resort.


----------



## NoNameNPC

Hi, I now have SU-1 and want buy IRIS, but i have tuning supreme 1A in SU-1, IRIS have 2A, he is burn out?


----------



## sajunky

NoNameNPC said:


> Hi, I now have SU-1 and want buy IRIS, but i have tuning supreme 1A in SU-1, IRIS have 2A, he is burn out?


Most likely not. If it does, you only lose $?$$.


----------

