# Amarra - anyone using it?



## Philski

Heard about this software recently: Amarra which promises "to provide the best music reproduction achievable from a computer based system".

 Does anyone have any experience with it? And if so, is it worth the $1,495 price tag?!


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## Bojamijams

Hah.. I imagine it plays an mp3 the same way winamp and foobar does... but since mac has 1% of the applications available for it that windows does, they figure they can get by with charging such an obscene amount


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## Philski

Ah! I missed the bit about it being Mac only. I think your explanation for the excessively high price is spot on.


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## krmathis

Became aware of it, at AudioCircle, this weekend.
 I registered for the beta and have downloaded version 10.3139. Not installed yet though, as I am not pleased with the pesky installer and files deep into /usr/bin/

 $1,500 is quite a lot of money, in case I like it, so might end up staying clear.


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## Bojamijams

Nevertheless, I'm curious about your impressions so please, post them when you get around to listening to it


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## drumstick

There's close to 100 posts concerning Amarra over here. Some of them did hear a noticeable better sound with the use of Amarra.


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## squall343

i guess we should be able to see some impressions soon?


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## drumstick

There are tons of people out there who regard $1500 as small change and/or are using systems worth tens of thousands of dollars. I'm not one of them, for sure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Moreover, it does cost an arm and a leg to get that last few % improvement.


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## mbd2884

There is a difference between spending thousands on a system, and just a simple mp3 player....


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## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Philski* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone have any experience with it? _

 

Yes.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Philski* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And if so, is it worth the $1,495 price tag?!_

 

If one can afford, it, yes.

 That's all I'll say about it, don't want to start a flame war. And, NO, I don't sell it. 

 Peace, 

 Lee


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## audioengr

You can all poke fun at it, but when you hear it at RMAF in October, you will be amazed like those of use that already have it. It has the same effect as a $1500 reclocker. The amazing thing is that the reclocker makes it even better.

 It is by far the best digital audio I have heard. I dont sell it either.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


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## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is by far the best digital audio I have heard. _

 

It is very good, indeed!

 Peace, 

 Lee


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## IPodPJ

I think most of the posters in this thread sound like fools. You're calling other people fools for buying a product which you yourself haven't even heard? Talk about ignorance.

 I myself haven't heard it but I wouldn't assume the quality of a product I haven't heard. Actually, I have done this in the past years ago and I was a fool for doing it then and I'll say you're a fool for doing it now. I'd also assume that your skepticism comes from the fact that you don't have the money to purchase the software anyway. Many of you that have commented negatively on this product have headphone systems that are worth less than this software so I wouldn't think you would be considering a purchase anyway. So why look down on it? I use a Mac at work but not at home where my audio equipment is. If I had a Mac based audio system I would definitely look into it. I hear there is a trial of Amarra available for download somewhere.

 I've talked to Lee about this and he says it's an amazing piece of software. I also trust Steve because he makes very high-end digital gear. Both of these guys are leaders in USB to Coax conversion. Lee makes some of the best cables in the business. I trust anything they have to say and you'd be wise to do the same.


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## Bojamijams

So why only release it on mac? Why not windows where the user base or bigger? Or does it overcome kind of a inherent weakness in the mac audio chain?


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## blessingx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So why only release it on mac? Why not windows where the user base or bigger? Or does it oversome kind of a inherent weakness in the mac audio chain?_

 

It comes from a company with years in pro-audio. And where the Mac is the largest user base. It's what they know and the audio engines don't have much in common. 

 Many have heard it at CanJam and I have privately and to confuse this with a MP3 "expander" is to ignore its creator history. 

 The gut reaction many are tossing out in this thread reminds me why I don't visit HF that much anymore.


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## jude

I'm puzzled about the responses I'm reading in this thread, too. Actually, of the things I missed at Can Jam 2009, Voltron's full Amarra setup is at or near the top of my list.


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## ManuLM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From the Urban Dictionary:

 1. combinate

 vb. to combine.
 Comes from the word "combination".
 It makes more sense this way.
 We must combinate our forces to defeat the enemy!!!


 I thought I would point out the use of your word, since you don't mind saying people are brain damaged._

 

Thanks for the hint you are right, wrong wording. But I kind of like old fashioned words. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway, more seriously, let's discuss objectively about what makes this software worth 1,5k$. I am really interested in the discussion.

 What do you see in this software that makes it so special and worth the money ? super duper EQ filters ? Even better stereo widening ? I personally like to keep my audio samples untouched.
 Many products exist already on the market, many are free... and open source. Ok not so simple for mac, but is that the only selling point ?

 Say you listen to PCM samples from a CD, quite typical example. What is this software doing to make the samples suddenly so fantastic ?


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## falang

Regardless of it's authenticity, the price tag is still ridiculous for software.


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## IceClass

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *falang* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Regardless of it's authenticity, the price tag is still ridiculous for software._

 

Not according to what I just paid for some software upgrades!

 On a forum where people regularly drop some crazy coin on amps, DACS etc...I'm really surprised by the sour grapes tone of some of the posters here.
 All the more so as almost no one has heard amarra.

 Yeah, 1.5K is some serious money but it's not like it's tootally obscene or out of line with what folks are paying to hear good music.


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## krmathis

Why not give it a fair try before claiming it to be overpriced?
 It is a lot of money, but for all we know it may improve the sound just as much as if you spent the same amount on hardware (DAC, amplification, ...).


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## EnOYiN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why not give it a fair try before claiming it to be overpriced?
 It is a lot of money, but for all we know it may improve the sound just as much as if you spent the same amount on hardware (DAC, amplification, ...)._

 

Although I don't know what is so special about this software I would think twice (more like ten) times before I would spend $1500 or more for a small piece of code. Especially because most of what the program does isn't all that special.

 That said, I haven't heard it and it might very well the best thing since sliced bread, but even then, how long will it take before the code to achieve this supreme audio quality will be available as open source? I don't mind waiting for another year or 2 if that means I'll save another $1500. Being the first with such things always means you will have to shell out big time.


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## leeperry

supposedly, a MAC can't output bit-perfect audio...and that'd be where this thing comes to the rescue, making sure that no SRC whatsoever takes place.


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## Quadrangulum

What a disappointing glut of baseless judgments...


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## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blessingx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It comes from a company with years in pro-audio. And where the Mac is the largest user base. It's what they know and the audio engines don't have much in common. 

 Many have heard it at CanJam and I have privately and to confuse this with a MP3 "expander" is to ignore its creator history. 

 The gut reaction many are tossing out in this thread reminds me why I don't visit HF that much anymore._

 

that explains why they released it for mac, but why not for pc? As tiny as the mac userbase is in the overall picture, the pro-audio niche has to be even smaller. The PC by comparison I would imagine would be just as big if not bigger. Why not release on Win platform too?

 Is its most valuable feature that it does bit-perfect?


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## IPodPJ

Maybe because a PC can output bit perfect already through ASIO.


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## jude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Quadrangulum* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What a disappointing glut of baseless judgments..._

 

I agree, and pruned the thread.


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## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe because a PC can output bit perfect already through ASIO._

 

So.. just so I'm understanding this properly... Amarra is basically a bit-perfect driver for the mac audio? That's all you're getting for $1,500?


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## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So.. just so I'm understanding this properly... Amarra is basically a bit-perfect driver for the mac audio? That's all you're getting for $1,500?_

 

There is more to it than that. I have yet to hear an equivalent PC-based system that sounds as good, and I am primarily PC-based. I just got a Mac Mini two weeks ago.

 The experiments that I have done using WiFi devices, reclockers, Firewire and USB converters demonstrated to me that there are two components to Amarra:

 1) jitter reduction of iTunes
 2) avoidance of damaging code in Core Audio

 I understand (1), but not (2).

 Without Amarra, converters that are affected by jitter sound fairly bad using itunes, worse than the same converters used on a PC. With Amarra, they sound better than on a PC.

 With the jitter basically reduced to inaudibility levels using reclockers and WiFi devices, Amarra still makes a difference. This is not jitter.

 Amarra handles the data differently than Windows audio stack or Mac Core Audio. Format is different. Based on Sonic Studio software for pro audio recording studios.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


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## Solitary1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blessingx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It comes from a company with years in pro-audio. And where the Mac is the largest user base. It's what they know and the audio engines don't have much in common. 

 Many have heard it at CanJam and I have privately and to confuse this with a MP3 "expander" is to ignore its creator history. 

 The gut reaction many are tossing out in this thread reminds me why I don't visit HF that much anymore._

 

Damn, you hit the nail on the head.


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## emmodad

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_supposedly, a MAC can't output bit-perfect audio...._

 

@leeperry: that's an interesting statement, can you provide some background? one would think the pro audio world would be concerned....

 curious, especially as iTunes running under OS X on a Mac has been demonstrated empirically (ie not just by "I heard it" or "there have been shoot-outs" comments) to yied bit-perfect playback and output of source files at rates up through 24/192. see as one possibly interesting example the testing info on Kent Poon's design With Sound site Design w Sound » CAS 5: CD Ripping ; and as well his results confirming iTunes (QuickTime?) errors with hi-res files in Windows Design w Sound » iTunes 8.1.1.10 PC Problem.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The experiments that I have done using WiFi devices, reclockers, Firewire and USB converters demonstrated to me that there are two components to Amarra:

 1) jitter reduction of iTunes
 2) avoidance of damaging code in Core Audio

 I understand (1), but not (2).

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 


 @empiricalaudio: steve, as you understand /1/, would you be so kind to explain how iTunes (a file management program) creates jitter?

 confused: isn't jitter a characteristic associated with timing discrepancies of data transmission in bus architectures; in the general case for audio as discussed in these and related threads -- and as explained in many of your postings on various fora -- these of interest are external to the computer, such as TOS/coax SPDIF, Firewire and USB -- the interfaces that reclocker products are intended to address.

 also, how does this other software program (Amarra) likewise have an effect on external bus timing jitter?

 or do you mean some other type of jitter?

 specifically interested to understand your post above in light of buffering / data translation which takes place before data "exits the computer"


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## cerbie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Solitary1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Damn, you hit the nail on the head._

 

It claims to do a great deal of good, does not say what's wrong that it fixes, nor how it fixes it, in any useful detail. Also, it's not $50, or even $100... Thus: skepticism.

 This is a not a new claim. It's going to be treated like anything in the past making a similar claim, until it proven, and someone figures out what it's doing (not necessarily their specific algorithms, but in general).

 I'm not keen on OS X, hate iTunes, and probably don't have a future in pro audio, so I'll likely never hear it. I've gone through enough crap on different hardware and software platforms to not bash it out of hand, though [size=x-small](most of our common audio problems can be heard with anything better than ibuds or average PC speakers--and worse, they can't be unheard, once you learn to hear them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)[/size]. I also find this an interesting topic of discussion, if going from practically lurking to a page-long post is any indication.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) jitter reduction of iTunes
 2) avoidance of damaging code in Core Audio_

 

1) What "jitter" does iTunes add? It takes data, decodes it, and sends it to be buffer well before it is needed. There's no place for jitter to be introduced. Now, if it can't always get the data out in time, then there may be other latency problems. But, if that's the case, how can it do that, and also succeed at providing bit-perfect output? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A paradox, have we?
 2) I can certainly believe that there are hidden traps here and there within the OS' main audio subsystem. I've been using Windows and Linux, after all.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Without Amarra, converters that are affected by jitter sound fairly bad using itunes, worse than the same converters used on a PC. 
 

_A-ha! A symptom!_ Now what is the cause, I wonder...
 Also, how many of the affected devices implement a dedicated clock recovery stage, internally?
 Are these devices being fed the same sample rate and bit-depth as before this software was in use?
 If it's the same rate and bps, what happens if you record the same song without and with it, and negate them in an audio editor (IE, how close is it)? Quote:


 With Amarra, [hardware alleged to show jitter symptoms with vanilla iTunes] sound better than on a PC. 
 

Is iTunes (or some OS X deep subsystem) not sending out the stream properly, leaving you with occasional gaps of a few samples here and there (could turn into jitter and varying perceived pitch?), or...what? Is this based on using any particular kind of interface for the difference*? IE, what kind of "jitter", since jitter is awfully broad, and clearly can't refer to the hardware interface signals (not as a cause, anyway).

 Or, is it something entirely different, like a light psychoacoustic filter that masks what you are calling effects of jitter?

 [size=x-small]* FI, "driver-free" USB uses a hideous clock and data transfer mechanism, and we commonly use software to deal with it (kernel streaming, ASIO, Jack, OSS4, real-time kernel...dunno what you Apple guys do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Networking is often under similar constraints (wireless from your PC is under basically the same constraints). Even with non-USB, our OSes have gone so far away from the ideals of Amiga and BE (instant user I/O = Godliness), that it can take such measures even for CPU-misers, like Firewire and PCI based devices, when the wrong circumstances arise.[/size]


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## Scrith

If you're a Mac user who is used to using iTunes on a Mac, I suppose it might be nice to hear something different, and maybe it "sounds" better.

 Let us not forget the basic facts when considering the idea of a music playing program that "sounds" better...a music playing program has one task (aside from its User Interface): read data from a storage device (e.g. hard drive) into memory, then tell a music driver (via some protocol like ASIO, KernalStreaming, DirectSound, and the Mac/Linux/whatever equivalents) to play the data that is in this buffer. The buffer management required for this type of thing is the sort of code that first-year computer science students write.

 Claims that one program sounds different than another are usually, in my experience, the result of one (or both) program(s) doing more than the simple chain described above (usually inserting some kind of re-sampler or other DSP effect into the chain which manipulates the data). Such programs are best avoided, in my experience.

 So, I'm not going to say it's impossible that a program sounds significantly different than another (it could, when using different DSP effects or re-sampling), but claims that a program sounds different when outputting the same ("bit-perfect") data as another program are about the equivalent of someone saying that this post would have been a lot better if I had used Internet Explorer rather than Firefox.


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## DoYouRight

I would truly like to hear this software and get an idea for it's changes. Problem is I dont own a Mac but do run Linux and they are closer for alot of files but Mac doesnt do ANYTHING free. So heres to hearing it on someone elses system before people say its useless.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *emmodad* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@leeperry: that's an interesting statement, can you provide some background? one would think the pro audio world would be concerned...._

 

sorry, I'm only spitting out the commercial mumbo jumbo read on their website and on the computeraudiophile.com link associated.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Claims that one program sounds different than another are usually, in my experience, the result of one (or both) program(s) doing more than the simple chain described above (usually inserting some kind of re-sampler or other DSP effect into the chain which manipulates the data). Such programs are best avoided, in my experience._

 

definitely! I've recently tried xxHighEndPlayer(which uses some crazy EQ/DSP to make white appear whiter, its author has confirmed it on computeraudiophile.com), and LilithPlayer(which is supposedly the bestest bit-perfect player on PC....and it sounds identical to foobar in KS on my system)

 there's a big part of placebo in these "better-than-bitperfect" players....on PC.

 and I'm not sure what jitter you guys are talking about, considering audio jitter is not audible...apparently : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ji...amples-424172/

 here's the jitter added in these samples(which is much worse than what you will EVER get IRL) :
  Quote:


 Track 1 - 30ns 
 Track 2 - 0ns 
 Track 3 - 10ns 
 Track 4 - 100ns 
 Track 5 - 10ns 
 

can you identify #2 and #4 in a DBT?


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## indirstr8s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cerbie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.....
 1) What "jitter" does iTunes add? It takes data, decodes it, and sends it to be buffer well before it is needed. There's no place for jitter to be introduced. Now, if it can't always get the data out in time, then there may be other latency problems. But, if that's the case, how can it do that, and also succeed at providing bit-perfect output? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A paradox, have we?.....
 [/size]_

 

The possible explanation can be...

 Data is sent over the USB in bursts. The burst profile ie the length of the burst and duration between the burst can change based on the SW which manages these bursts or even what runs on the computer can affect this burst profile. The audio clock recovery inside the dacs uses this burst profile to recover the audio clock, so that it tracks the rate of the incoming stream.
 Most probably this is the way a different SW causes different jitter spectrum on the audio clock. Now changes in the burst profile may not cause pathological failures like dropouts but still change the jitter of the audio clock.


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## Reader

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you're a Mac user who is used to using iTunes on a Mac, I suppose it might be nice to hear something different, and maybe it "sounds" better.

 Let us not forget the basic facts when considering the idea of a music playing program that "sounds" better...a music playing program has one task (aside from its User Interface): read data from a storage device (e.g. hard drive) into memory, then tell a music driver (via some protocol like ASIO, KernalStreaming, DirectSound, and the Mac/Linux/whatever equivalents) to play the data that is in this buffer. The buffer management required for this type of thing is the sort of code that first-year computer science students write.

 Claims that one program sounds different than another are usually, in my experience, the result of one (or both) program(s) doing more than the simple chain described above (usually inserting some kind of re-sampler or other DSP effect into the chain which manipulates the data). Such programs are best avoided, in my experience.

 So, I'm not going to say it's impossible that a program sounds significantly different than another (it could, when using different DSP effects or re-sampling), but claims that a program sounds different when outputting the same ("bit-perfect") data as another program are about the equivalent of someone saying that this post would have been a lot better if I had used Internet Explorer rather than Firefox._

 

Best post in this thread. /threaded


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## tuckers

Hi Everyone, We are the dealer for Sonic Studio Amarra. I can answer any questions, setup demos of the software for people etc. I am a long time Head-Fier too, though I haven't posted a lot.

 Amarra software works with iTunes. When you play a lossless AIFF or WAV file Amarra will mute iTunes and play that file through it's own sound engine. When any other file is played it will be routed through iTunes as usual. 

 Also Amarra will automatically change sample rates when a high resolution file is playing. So you can have a playlist of many resolutions and it will play without having to change anything. Amarra has also been optimized to play high resolution files, so in a properly working system there should be no pops, ticks, stutters etc. that can plague high resolution playback. Amarra also supports 24/192 which iTunes doesn't. So Amarra can make your system high resolution ready.

 Amarra is not adding EQ or anything additive to the signal chain. Amarra's software uses Sonics Solutions SSE sound engine for playback. This technology has been developed by Sonic for over ten years, and has been built from the ground up to support high accuracy and fidelity to the original file. The engine manipulates the music file with less steps than iTunes or other consumer software, and the work it does is done with much more complex algorithms. It is accurate to many more zeros than iTunes or any other consumer software. This is why Head-Fiers are finding Amarra sounds better than iTunes.


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## Bojamijams

Do you perhaps know why its not released for pc?


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## emmodad

hi tuckers, thanks for the info.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amarra also supports 24/192 which iTunes doesn't._

 

incorrect. iTunes most definately does support 24/192; although as of v8.1.1.10 there was a bug in the Windows version which caused truncation problems with hi-res files. Not sure if it's been fixed in the new 8.2 release, but it is a known bug.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The (Amarra processing) engine manipulates the music file with less steps than iTunes or other consumer software, and the work it does is done with much more complex algorithms. It is accurate to many more zeros than iTunes or any other consumer software. This is why Head-Fiers are finding Amarra sounds better than iTunes._

 

I certainly don't expect Sonic to expose any proprietary signal processing algorithm info; nor frankly is it relevant, as playback of the unaltered audio input data (ie with no added processing) is the concept of interest to compare performance of the underlying "engines" (hence the "much more complex algorithms" are irrelevant for basic playback).

 However, your description above begs a few questions:

 1/ could you pls expand on the concept "manipulates the music file with less steps"? curious as to what you mean by this, and would appreciate some type of empirical example -- ie what does Amarra do when merely playing back 16/44.1 data with no processing, and at 100% volume (ie no changes to data required for gain manipulation)? since you're comparing to iTunes and others, what do they do differently to use more steps?

 2/ could you pls expand on your statement regarding processing resolution ("accurate to many more zeros") and clarify if this means that Amarra with no signal processing selected and volume at 100% is doing

 fixed-to-multiple-precision fixed (or fixed-to-float) conversion of all input data > no processing > and then reformatting back to ie 16-bit fixed

 for output of the integer data for onward transmission? in what mathematical data processing format is Amarra working, and (as you are implying this is the reason for different "sound" vs iTunes) can you identify how this compares to iTunes mathematics? I would presume if this is a marketing point, Sonic is prepared to identify the differences?

 Also, does Amarra have any operating mode in which it can pass the original input data samples unaltered and unconverted (to any other mathematical format)? Or, as above, does it alway convert and then reconvert the data ie fixed > float > fixed?

 thanks!


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## Reader

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Everyone, We are the dealer for Sonic Studio Amarra. I can answer any questions, setup demos of the software for people etc. I am a long time Head-Fier too, though I haven't posted a lot.

 Amarra software works with iTunes. When you play a lossless AIFF or WAV file Amarra will mute iTunes and play that file through it's own sound engine. When any other file is played it will be routed through iTunes as usual. 

 Also Amarra will automatically change sample rates when a high resolution file is playing. So you can have a playlist of many resolutions and it will play without having to change anything. Amarra has also been optimized to play high resolution files, so in a properly working system there should be no pops, ticks, stutters etc. that can plague high resolution playback. Amarra also supports 24/192 which iTunes doesn't. So Amarra can make your system high resolution ready.

 Amarra is not adding EQ or anything additive to the signal chain. Amarra's software uses Sonics Solutions SSE sound engine for playback. This technology has been developed by Sonic for over ten years, and has been built from the ground up to support high accuracy and fidelity to the original file. The engine manipulates the music file with less steps than iTunes or other consumer software, and the work it does is done with much more complex algorithms. It is accurate to many more zeros than iTunes or any other consumer software. This is why Head-Fiers are finding Amarra sounds better than iTunes._

 


 I never used mac, and nor do I use itune, so I don't know what's better or worse than it. However, even if you said are true, other than some marketing staff you did not explain(the Sonics Solutions SSE sound engine thing), it still would NOT BE ANY BETTER than foobar2000 AT ALL.


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## cerbie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amarra is not adding EQ or anything additive to the signal chain. Amarra's software uses Sonics Solutions SSE sound engine for playback. This technology has been developed by Sonic for over ten years, and has been built from the ground up to support high accuracy and fidelity to the original file. The engine manipulates the music file with less steps than iTunes or other consumer software, and the work it does is done with much more complex algorithms. It is accurate to many more zeros than iTunes or any other consumer software. This is why Head-Fiers are finding Amarra sounds better than iTunes._

 

Would it be accurate to say that what Amarra implements is a proprietary real-time engine for servicing audio streams?

 FYI, since I imagine many folks won't know what that implies: real-time in the sense that it records system state info (such as latencies), finds patterns in them, and is thus able to predict the behavior of the system well enough to offer nearly perfect data output at a specified time (including predicting when that time will come next, which a user-space app tends not to have much control over).


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## tuckers

Bojamijams, Amarra is not released for PC because the technology has been developed on the Mac OS platform for over ten years. The technology does not translate directly to the PC platform.

 As to the more technical statements and questions, I am not qualified to answer, but I will forward to Jonathan Reichbach the CEO and lead developer and post anything he responds with. I can say that he has stated that Amarras conversion from fixed to float to fixed is one of the examples of accomplishing it with more accuracy than iTunes accomplishes.

 Regardless of the technical arguments, what really matters is if you hear a difference and find that the difference is of value to you. It's really easy to demo, you can with a single button switch between Amarra and iTunes.


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## emmodad

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Regardless of the technical arguments, what really matters is if you hear a difference and find that the difference is of value to you._

 

respectfully tuckers, i think that what you will find in the head-fi community -- an similarly in several other online fora where the evolution of computer audio playback is of great interest -- is that another item which matters is ethical transparency from vendors in objective substantiation associated with their marketing claims. if the underlying issue is a (technically) straightforward one of bit-perfect transmission of simple integer data from computer storage onward through a transmission interface, well, this is something which is most certainly not rocket science, at least it hasn't been to the telecoms and computer industries for many decades....

 and yes indeed there will be customers who will perceive, in their own individual price-to-value worldview, that amarra brings them value. noone will begrudge you expanding to the adjacent market segment of well-heeled audiophiles, in order to develop incremental revenue for sonic's R&D applied these many years to the pro audio world: amarra is an obvious derivative software product opportunity.

 i have no doubt that, if processing of audio samples is involved (dsp effects, or especially software-based volume control), then yes, Sonic's experience most probably provides good algorithms, good dithering of the digital volume control, etc.

 and algorithm implementations which run on sonic's branded metric halo interface hardware's internal dsp engine are also undoubtedly well-implemented.

 however, aside from automatic sample rate switching (indeed convenient, but perhaps not "essential" for a large number of users); the simple issue remains, that if the task at hand is a purist one of basic transport and streaming of audio data from computer memory to output interface; and if the mathematical calculation inaccuracies of basic iTunes / Quicktime engine / OS X were to be below threshhold of perception; then it is relevant to consider the price/value equation (or diminishing returns) of a software package with exceptionally premium pricing (USD 1500) in comparison with native iTunes / Quicktime (free).

 it would be interesting to see sonic posting additional detail wrt results of technical measurement and analysis of actual distortion, noise floor etc loopback / null testing measurement vs iTunes / Quicktime native playback; at zero signal attenuation (ie no effect of digital fader); for say 16/44.1 and various permutations of high-res audio data up thru 24/192. (nB: links which sonic can provide to any existing public info such as whitepapers, technical measurements etc would no doubt be appreciated; perhaps there is something regarding processing characteristics, format, etc for the sonic SSE audio engine? there is of course the "why amarra" cutsheet on the amarra website mentioning 64-bit float, however some of the examples presented are interesting in light of, ie, demonstrated public null testing results for iTunes / Quicktime showing exceptoinally low residual error when processing 16/44.1. perhaps the amarra benefit only comes in for processing of hi-res?)

 none of the above commentary is intended in any negative or combative spirit. rather, it's simply a suggestion that if you're going to claim in public marketing directed at another (or other, plural) product(s) that one software player "sounds better" than another, there needs to be not only anecdotal info, but a significant body of substantiating justification would be quite appreciated.

 very much looking forward to your followon postings with hopeful inclusion of commentary from jr

 thanks!


----------



## audioengr

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Reader* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never used mac, and nor do I use itune, so I don't know what's better or worse than it. However, even if you said are true, other than some marketing staff you did not explain(the Sonics Solutions SSE sound engine thing), it still would NOT BE ANY BETTER than foobar2000 AT ALL._

 

I'm afraid it is. I have multiple customers using it now and they all report the same. My reference was PC and Foobar before getting a Mac Mini and Amarra. Now Amarra is superior to ANY PC scenerio I have tried.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Reader* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never used mac, and nor do I use itune, so I don't know what's better or worse than it. However, even if you said are true, other than some marketing staff you did not explain(the Sonics Solutions SSE sound engine thing), it still would NOT BE ANY BETTER than foobar2000 AT ALL._

 

You never used a Mac, and then obviously not Amarra either. STILL you claim that it would "NOT BE ANY BETTER than foobar2000 AT ALL". What do you base this on since you have never compared them?
 Would like to know!


----------



## mbd2884

How does Amarra perfect Bit Perfect, see the Perfect in Bit-Perfect?

 That's what I want to know and agree with everthing emmodad said. Amarra looks right now to me just some gimmick to take advantage of audiophiles who will pay anything to get a "percieved" difference when it's not even there. Or some change in EQ/DSP/Dithering, then it's not bit-perfect and no longer of interest to me.

 Show the data, show the proof, don't just write gibberish that has no meaning. My customers heard a difference is not proof, that's just worthless B.S. I can say I hear a difference between .wav file and a CD. Who cares. Unless it was a proven DBT testing if you can't provide the technical proof and data.


----------



## Scrith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The engine manipulates the music file with less steps than iTunes or other consumer software, and the work it does is done with much more complex algorithms._

 

Now we are getting somewhere about why Amarra sounds different, because music programs that are employing "complex algorithms" for playback are doing something more than just routing the data from the hard drive to the sound device (or grossly exaggerating the complexity of what they are doing).

 Let's see if we can get a simple yes/no answer: are the bits of data that Amarra reads off of the hard drive the same as the ones that it sends to the audio driver?

 If the answer is yes, then this program is employing some buffering that any first-year computer science student could write.

 if the answer is no, this program is using DSP algorithms to manipulate the sound. My experience with DSP effects is that they sound great at first, but get pretty old after awhile (they are kind of like candy for the ear, in this respect).


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if the answer is no, this program is using DSP algorithms to manipulate the sound. My experience with DSP effects is that they sound great at first, but get pretty old after awhile (they are kind of like candy for the ear, in this respect)._

 

I think we're 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 just like ppl who max. the sharpness of their flat screen, use V eq on their home stereo, this $1500 audio wrapper simply sounds "better"...and it's a heck of a deal, if you got the spare cash that is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 xxHighEnd is supposedly the best sounding player on PC, did you try it? prepare to giggle


----------



## Reader

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You never used a Mac, and then obviously not Amarra either. STILL you claim that it would "NOT BE ANY BETTER than foobar2000 AT ALL". What do you base this on since you have never compared them?
 Would like to know!_

 

dude, use your brain, what he said are very basic function of a music player, that's it, any decent player will do everything he says.


----------



## indirstr8s

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can all poke fun at it, but when you hear it at RMAF in October, you will be amazed like those of use that already have it. It has the same effect as a $1500 reclocker. The amazing thing is that the reclocker makes it even better.

 It is by far the best digital audio I have heard. I dont sell it either.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

Steve,

 Snow leopard comes in September. It might throw a new set of surprises, pleasant or otherwise. )


----------



## tongson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bojamijams, Amarra is not released for PC because the technology has been developed on the Mac OS platform for over ten years. The technology does not translate directly to the PC platform.
 ..._

 

You might want to update your marketing material. Core Audio was first publicly released 2000 along with OSX Kodiak. Unless of course your company had access to pre-Kodiak code, which I doubt.


----------



## tuckers

Tongson, Sonic Studio has been producing Pro products for the Mac before Core Audio was introduced.


----------



## tuckers

Scrith, as stated earlier, Amarra is not adding any additional DSP, EQ or other filters to the signal. 

 Emmodad, I encourage you to contact Sonic Studio to ask your questions there, as I am not qualified to discuss. Jonathan Reichbach (CEO and lead developer) responded and asked that these questions be addressed to them directly. You can always reach them at sonicstudio.com or email support@ the above url. 

 If you feel like sharing your findings, post them so we can all benefit.


----------



## DoYouRight

Truly interesting. I am curious if it is better than certain Linux players though which are free.


----------



## Scrith

Well, I went and checked out the website for myself.

 Sure enough, here are the four main selling points:

 • Advanced mathematical algorithms
 • Automatic hardware sample rate adjustment
 • Advanced software based Sonic Equalization
 • Integrated Gain Structure and TPDF Dither processing

 Smells like DSP to me. If that's what you're into, there are a plethora of DSP-related plug-ins (resamplers, equalizers, gain and dither plug-ins, and so forth) for you to play with in Foobar2000 or WinAmp.

 Amarra looks to me to be a convenient all-in-one-package (in a box with a fancy bow, no doubt) for someone who doesn't want to do all the fiddling and adjusting themselves. Those claiming this is the best thing they've ever heard obviously aren't very inclined to doing this sort of thing on their own, but at least with Amarra they can finally have a setup that meets their expectations for what computer audio should sound like.


----------



## tuckers

Hi Scrith, to comment on your points:

 "Advanced mathematical algorithms" -- yes, any player using the theoretical 'bit perfect' playback uses mathematical algorithms. 

 "Automatic hardware sample rate adjustment" Amarra communicates and changes the sample rate of the system through the Audio/Midi Settings. So if you are playing a 24/96 file, Amarra will change the sample rate of the system for you. This has nothing to do with DSP.

 "Advanced software based Sonic Equalization" -- Yes, There is a very high quality Sonic EQ available to tailor your sound. This is OFF by default, and you have the choice to engage it. 

 "Integrated Gain Structure" Sonic has a very high quality volume control that sounds great, and employs dithering etc. to work. This volume control is the same used for mixing in their professional mastering software. If volume is set to zero (100%), it is not in the bit path and does not add DSP. The volume is set this way by default.

 "TPDF Dither processing" is an option in the preferences panel to help users of DACs that accept only higher sample rates. This is set to OFF by default, so does not add DSP unless you choose to invoke it. 

 Again Amarra does not use DSP or EQ to the bit path when played in it's default installed mode to change or 'improve' the sound. You can of course engage the volume control add EQ etc. and that will engage DSP. Any software player will do this. 

 I totally agree with you that I would not like to listen long term to any software that has some kind of EQ or house sound built in. It's my experience that with long term listening comes boredom. It robs music of it's natural tonal qualities and homogenizes the sound. The pursuit of purist audio is to pass music through the system with as little a sonic footprint from the hardware and software as possible. That's what I have tried to achieve in my systems now for over 25 years, and it's also one of Sonic Studio's main priorities.


----------



## omasciarotte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cerbie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would it be accurate to say that what Amarra implements is a proprietary real-time engine for servicing audio streams?_

 

Hey Cerbie,

 Sort of…Amarra uses Sonic Studio's SSE, which is a virtual machine for both record and playback. The ancestor of the current SSE was originally developed in the early 1980's. For more info, visit:

Company :: About Sonic Studio

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cerbie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_FYI, since I imagine many folks won't know what that implies…_

 

I won't discuss implications but, I can tell you that the SSE was designed to replace CoreAudio and is optimized for as little processing as possible, unless the end user elects to use it, and to optimize real-time operation.


----------



## omasciarotte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_are the bits of data that Amarra reads off of the hard drive the same as the ones that it sends to the audio driver?_

 

Hey Scrith,

 It's designed to minimally process the data read from disk. That said, one generally cannot or should not simply read the data from disk and send it to the I/O. There is usually transcoding, like floats to fixed conversion and redithering, before the data can be passed to the output interface.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If the answer is yes, then this program is employing some buffering that any first-year computer science student could write._

 

Humm...


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm afraid it is. I have multiple customers using it now and they all report the same. My reference was PC and Foobar before getting a Mac Mini and Amarra. Now Amarra is superior to ANY PC scenerio I have tried.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

Oh well, if a few people report hearing a difference (especially after spending their own money on an expensive product of mysterious utility), then it must be better. Case closed.


----------



## mercman

The improvement that Amarra provides to iTunes is not small. It is even more apparent with hi-rez material. 

 All one has to do is listen to the Demo and make your own conclusions.


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mercman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The improvement that Amarra provides to iTunes is not small. It is even more apparent with hi-rez material. 

 All one has to do is listen to the Demo and make your own conclusions._

 

Of course everyone should make their own conclusions. Some (myself included) would like an explanation as to the cause of any perceived difference or improvement in SQ. If its not some form of processing, what is it?


----------



## Scrith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *omasciarotte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's designed to minimally process the data read from disk. That said, one generally cannot or should not simply read the data from disk and send it to the I/O. There is usually transcoding, like floats to fixed conversion and redithering, before the data can be passed to the output interface._

 

If you are going to be manipulating the data in the original audio file you will certainly need to do things like transcoding, fixed to float (and back) conversion, re-dithering, etc.

 The problem is...a bit-perfect computer music playing program should not be doing any of that (not one that I want to use, at least). It should not attempt to change one single bit of the original data (16-bits in...16-bits out, untouched). That means that transcoding, float conversions, and re-dithering are unnecessary.

 Again, if you want manipulated audio data (something that the people who created the original CD you purchased did not feel was appropriate, or else they would have done it themselves), you can achieve that with just about any music playing program, but it might require some experimentation to get the combination that sounds right for one's own ears. Perhaps Amarra provides a better user interface for someone that is experimenting the digital signal processing/manipulation than the existing programs (Foobar2000, iTunes, WinAmp, etc.).

 And, yes, if you aren't messing with the original data before sending it onto the driver, you have some pretty simple buffering requirements (async reads into a buffer, when it reaches a reasonable level begin outputting, read more data into the buffer when there is sufficient room but before starvation occurs...pretty basic stuff). Now, if you need to modify that data and put the output elsewhere, and that modification is CPU intensive, you may need to get a bit more creative.


----------



## tuckers

Reader, you are right, it's late. Edited to remove stupid conjecture.


----------



## Reader

OK Cool!


----------



## DoYouRight

The option is, iTunes itself is flawed. So using another play would eliminate the need for Amarra right?


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The option is, iTunes itself is flawed. So using another play would eliminate the need for Amarra right?_

 

Please explain how iTunes is flawed.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The option is, iTunes itself is flawed._

 

How is iTunes flawed?
 Afaik it can be set up to output bit-perfect audio through the optical S/PDIF out.


----------



## cfmsp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How is iTunes flawed?
 Afaik it can be set up to output bit-perfect audio through the optical S/PDIF out._

 

Depends on the operating system in use. On a Mac, just turn off all the options that manipulate the sound (EQ, etc.), and turn the volume all the way up, and you're there.

 Due to how Windows handles audio, it's not that simple, if you're not on a Mac.

 Contrary to what some think, Apple did not intentionally cripple iTunes on Windows. MS did that all by itself.


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cfmsp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_. . . Due to how Windows handles audio, it's not that simple. . ._

 

Please explain.


----------



## cfmsp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *terriblepaulz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please explain._

 

being a 'Mac', I don't completely understand all the details, but will relay what I believe to be true. I'm certain others will correct me if I'm wrong. 

 As I understand it, Windows uses something called the K-mixer which degrades the audio quality and prevents bit-perfect output on Windows. Windows legacy audio components - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 Back to my original point, 'it's not that simple' means that work is required to get bit perfect output and/or highest quality sound from any player on Windows, not just iTunes. As I understand it, iTunes is NOT actually recommended as a high quality music player on Windows - I believe due to an inability to eliminate the troubling aspects of kmixer.

 Try media monkey instead.


----------



## DoYouRight

You could easily read by searching terriblepaulz. I am not the most "TECH" person but from my reading and trial and error. iTunes does not sound better than other options I have at hand. It is the "hip/trendy" player on PC to try to make it similar to MACS. The Mac version is alot better. But there should be no need for a plugin at that price to make it audio pro grade.


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could easily read by searching terriblepaulz. I am not the most "TECH" person but from my reading and trial and error. iTunes does not sound better than other options I have at hand. It is the "hip/trendy" player on PC to try to make it similar to MACS. The Mac version is alot better. But there should be no need for a plugin at that price to make it audio pro grade._

 

I did a little searching, and got a little frustrated because so much of what I found were simple assertions and statements of individuals' impressions which told me nothing. I admit I'm impatient. Sorry for thread jacking.


----------



## tuckers

Scrith, I spoke to the software developers. He says that there is no playback system that can playback without converting to a float. All current hardware requires a float input. So you could make a playback software that did not change to a float, but there is no hardware that supports that. 

 Do you know a system that does this?


----------



## Mr.Duck

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cfmsp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I understand it, Windows uses something called the K-mixer which degrades the audio quality and prevents bit-perfect output on Windows. Windows legacy audio components - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_

 

Hey it's not so bad. Kmixer and windows 'just works'. If you play at a sample rate your soundcard doesn't support, kmixer will resample it for you. It allows 2 files to be played at once, like system error beeps, and mixes them together and possibly resamples if it's needed. That's windows XP.

 Windows vista is even better. All you have to do is use wasapi output and not only do you get bit perfect, you get exclusive output. Not even ASIO can do that. And how about waveRT? Anyone here with an echo audiofire? I think that can do bitperfect with regular apps that use direct sound (like iTunes on windows). WaveRT is vista/windows7 only.


----------



## HeadLover

Sound like a complete foolishness to me.

 I mean, if I am using WASAPI and Vista anf Foobar2000 and a USB native thing (like the Benchmark DAC1) and everything is BIT PERFECT

 How will a new software will improve it ?!

 I only need to get the bits out of my PC to my DAC, so why would there be any change if the bits are the same ?!

 Someone ???


----------



## Mr.Duck

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadLover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How will a new software will improve it ?!

 I only need to get the bits out of my PC to my DAC, so why would there be any change if the bits are the same ?!_

 

New software can resample the audio to a higher freq. That might sound better. You can do that for free with a really high quality resampler too. You can use other DSPs to enhance the audio. Bitperfect is nice and all, but I think you can do better.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.Duck* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_New software can resample the audio to a higher freq. That might sound better. You can do that for free with a really high quality resampler too. You can use other DSPs to enhance the audio. Bitperfect is nice and all, but I think you can do better._

 

resampling ALWAYS increases the THD+N distortion, it will ONLY degrade the SQ.
 what improves the SQ is oversampling, and it has to be done in the DAC chip...the soundcard BIOS/drivers need to force it to 128X if available.


----------



## Mr.Duck

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_resampling ALWAYS increases the THD+N distortion, it will ONLY degrade the SQ._

 

A quality resampler doesn't degrade SQ much. It would be pretty tough to hear the difference. DAC chips have better measured performance at 24/192 compared 16/44.1 so maybe that's why it might sound better. Some people seem to like doing it.


----------



## iriverdude

$1500 for software music player? lol.


----------



## HeadLover

So, when will it be for windows? I really want to buy it


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.Duck* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A quality resampler doesn't degrade SQ much. It would be pretty tough to hear the difference. DAC chips have better measured performance at 24/192 compared 16/44.1 so maybe that's why it might sound better. Some people seem to like doing it._

 

indeed, if you DAC does poor filtering at 44.1KHz....it might -in some cases- slightly improve w/ upsampling...theoritically at least.

 but why not getting a proper DAC in the first place? saying that upsampling will improve the SQ is major snake oil IMO....oversampling is not, but many ppl(including manufacturers) like to mix the 2 words, when they actually have little in common 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've seen some "magic" DAC's that are called "NOS"(No OverSampling?)....but all the DAC's oversample(yeah I checked the datasheets), and there's no good reason why you wouldn't want to oversample, it will only improve the post-filtering in the DAC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 a poor clock design could indeed degrade 44.1KHz decoding, but ditching it is your best option then..


----------



## Mr.Duck

Let's use Benchmark DAC1 as an example. Inside this dac, it resamples all audio to somthing like 110 KHz. Can't remember the exact frequency off the top of my head. They used that frequency because they found that was the 'optimum' one for best performance. If not best performance, then the best SQ baring in mind its a pro dac so they were going for analytical over hifi. If you have software resampler that is really excelent, then you could resample to 110KHz in software. It _might_ improve SQ if your software resampler is better than the hardware one inside the DAC1. But I'm only guessing here, I havn't used upsampling.

 $1500 for a media player is a joke IMO. The fact that member of the trade people say it's worth it doesn't surprise me. Even if they don't get paid for a sale of the software, it is in their interests to help eachother out and generates more business for them.


----------



## HeadLover

Why isn't there a windows version? windows 7 and Vista 64bit ?!


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mr.Duck* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's use Benchmark DAC1 as an example. Inside this dac, it resamples all audio to somthing like 110 KHz. Can't remember the exact frequency off the top of my head. They used that frequency because they found that was the 'optimum' one for best performance. If not best performance, then the best SQ baring in mind its a pro dac so they were going for analytical over hifi. If you have software resampler that is really excelent, then you could resample to 110KHz in software. It might improve SQ if your software resampler is better than the hardware one inside the DAC1. But I'm only guessing here, I havn't used upsampling._

 

upsampling is interpolating data, and compromising the distortion rates...it might counterbalance w/ some weakness in the DAC(poor 44.1KHz post-filtering?), but this kind of statement requires technical proofs IMO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 too many upsampling DAC manufacturers state this kind of things as "facts"....we want proofs!

 try to play around w/ the r8Brain Pro resampler, see how it goes for you.

 you can use SineGen to create 1Khz wave files, then WaveSpectra to measure THD/THD+N....I did it for Reclock(oops, pix are 404 now) : SlySoft Forum - View Single Post - Bit exact audio in Reclock without any resampling


----------



## dugq

This product seems a bit of a joke to me. It appears to be nothing but some mastering software repackaged (badly) into an itunes plugin. While I don't doubt that the gain adjustment and EQ are better than what is found in iTunes the kind of person who may buy this product is not going to be using these features. And if they are using a 24 bit DAC (most likely) the word length adjustment is pointless too. All that is left is the sample-rate detection (nice but worth the cash???). Itunes offers Bit-Perfect output and there is nothing I can find in the literature that would indicate that Amarra improves jitter, so what does it have to offer?

 While the technology clearly has a pedigree in the studio I have no idea what this has to do with playback. The processes and requirements involved in the studio are completely different to those of the listening room. I don't want a multi-band compressor attached to my hifi, even if some people may think it sounds better. The hardware is particularly silly. Why would anyone outside of the studio require 8 channels of analog input? Whereas there are no phantom powered mic inputs which, given that amarra offers room correction via EQ, may have been useful.

 IMO, the likely scenario goes like this - Pro-audio company has a technology which it has successfully sold to the pro-audio industry. Said company needs a bit of cash. Said company jerry rigs said technology to work in itunes and sells it as a great technological advance hoping to sell it to people who don;t understand enough about the technology to know they don't need it. A nice chunk of cash with sod all R & D required.

 Sell it as a £100 itunes plugin and fair enough, but $1500 is just taking the proverbial


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dugq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While the technology clearly has a pedigree in the studio_

 

are they really famous? they make it sound like they're parented w/ Sonic...Solutions to me.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadLover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why isn't there a windows version? windows 7 and Vista 64bit ?!_

 

Read the thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It has been answered at least once...


----------



## Philski

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dugq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sell it as a £100 itunes plugin and fair enough, but $1500 is just taking the proverbial_

 

This is the crux of the original post, really. With so many free players out there, $1,500 should promise (and deliver) such an epic improvement in sound quality that people willingly part with that much cash. 

 Anyway, the quality of the source is only part of the chain; maybe Amarra does really shine with very high-end systems, where $1,500 is a drop in the ocean compared to the system's overall cost.


----------



## tuckers

Sonic Studio is the original company from the 1980s that created the Wav file (working with Microsoft) and pioneered CD burning and ripping etc. They launched some of the first software for CD ripping and burning. This software became very successful (eventually becoming Roxio etc.) and they decided to split the original Pro Audio company off into a separate entity. This is Sonic Studio today. Sonic Solutions still has an interest in Sonic Studio. Sonic Studio was also involved in the development of DSD and was one of the original licensees of the technology.


----------



## Wavelength

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *audioengr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is more to it than that. I have yet to hear an equivalent PC-based system that sounds as good, and I am primarily PC-based. I just got a Mac Mini two weeks ago.

 The experiments that I have done using WiFi devices, reclockers, Firewire and USB converters demonstrated to me that there are two components to Amarra:

 1) jitter reduction of iTunes
 2) avoidance of damaging code in Core Audio

 I understand (1), but not (2).

 Without Amarra, converters that are affected by jitter sound fairly bad using itunes, worse than the same converters used on a PC. With Amarra, they sound better than on a PC.

 With the jitter basically reduced to inaudibility levels using reclockers and WiFi devices, Amarra still makes a difference. This is not jitter.

 Amarra handles the data differently than Windows audio stack or Mac Core Audio. Format is different. Based on Sonic Studio software for pro audio recording studios.

 Steve N.
 Empirical Audio_

 

Steve,

 I was hoping you would understand better because of Amarra what is and what is not jitter.

 There is no jitter inside a computer, heck not even on the USB link. Amarra does not change the jitter in the system.

 I did the following test today with exactly the same results and you can do this also:

 MacBook Pro----->Benchmark --------WCLK output TAS1020===>Wavecrest

 iTunes, GarageBand, Amarra, it didn't matter the jitter was the same for all of them.

 Look people software changes the character of sound. You should all realize this. Even if you get bit perfect output the difference in using say Foobar on a PC and iTunes or even Amarra on the MAC will make things sound different.

 BUT THIS DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH JITTER!

 Guys look... everything effects sound. Why is a mystery that will live forever.

 What ever Amarra does is more correct than straight iTunes. There are some other PRO type MAC apps that sound just about the same. But really PRO software does not have what it takes to make it a viable play source.

 Why not PC? well I spent all day at a huge recording studio today doing some work (I also play drums and percussion as well as a decent hack at guitar) and they had 18 recording studios about 100 MAC's not one PC to be seen. Most of the high end Pro software is only MAC.

 The cool thing is this is all software and it can be downloaded and installed and we are moving forward.

 Thanks
 Gordon


----------



## HeadLover

I still think we want to see a nice software in the level of a PRO for PC
 I mean, why not ?!


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wavelength* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What ever Amarra does is more correct than straight iTunes._

 

that's prolly the most technical explanation we're ever going to get...so thank you for that!


----------



## jp11801

I've heard this software now on two occasions in a great system and it is a break through.

 Next paycheck I'll be picking it up as to me it improves the sound akin to stepping up from a $1000 CDP to a $3000 cdp. The folks over at Amarra/Sonic Studios are great people and very highly regarded in the pro world. All I can say is listen to it and decide prior to dismissing it.


----------



## Currawong

I've installed the demo, converted a few tracks back to AIFF and had a listen. First impression is that some hiss in the background of tracks seems to not be there, allowing a bit more clarity of the instruments. The difference isn't huge for me though.

 What kind of improvements are you getting jp?


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've installed the demo, converted a few tracks back to AIFF and had a listen. First impression is that some hiss in the background of tracks seems to not be there, allowing a bit more clarity of the instruments. The difference isn't huge for me though.

 What kind of improvements are you getting jp?_

 

greater sense of space around the instruments, take the drum solo on Dave Brubeck's Take Five, the cymbals shimmer a bit more and the drum shells have more depth to them for example. I'm not picking up more hiss but that may be possible based on the source material.


----------



## Currawong

Sounds similar to what I was getting. It was as if the hiss in the background of some tracks had gone, and like a fog or veil lifted slightly from the sound. More space around the instruments would describe it well also. I am thinking to try with a couple of different DACs to see if that affects the degree of improvement, as a thought in the back of my head is that Amarra is intended to process the digital in some way in order to improve the D/A conversion, when it happens.


----------



## jp11801

I'm honestly not entirely sure exactly what is being done but I am using a Sonic Studio 302 DAC/ADC with it (it is the Metric Halo ULN-2) with it and alone the dac is wonderful.


----------



## Quadrangulum

I just found out that there is an Amarra dealer nearby. I've scheduled an audition later today with my Berkeley Alpha DAC.

 I've been quite ambivalent about it myself. On the one hand, it's getting raves across the board from those that have tried it but on the other hand, I know literally nothing about how it works. I can't wait to hear it for myself.


----------



## DoYouRight

sweet where Quad?


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

This thread has repeated itself all over the net - here, on Audio Asylum's PC forum, and on Computer Audiophile. In all cases, Amarra has been unable to explain how it can be at once identical (bit perfect) and better. In at least two of those discussions, Gordon has pointed out audioengnr's rather shocking lack of understanding of what he sells very expensive solutions to -- jitter. Thanks for that. And in every case it seems that those who hear Amarra hear _something_...

 But no one seems to know what. Not even Amarra. As Gordon says, in audio, sometimes things sound different and there just isn't any explanation for it. The thing is, though, when those "things" can be differentiated in proper listening tests, they are almost always measurable. I'm not sure I've ever come across an exception.

 So where are the measurements? Where are the (blind, independent, statistically significant) listening tests? If Sonic Studios has really built a better mousetrap, I would think they would be biting at the bit to demonstrate that fact. I'm still listening, and given the opportunity, I'd love to hear this, too. But I'm not in a big hurry to put _my_ money where _their_ mouth is. YMMV. Not when iTunes lossless files sound this good.

 P


----------



## DoYouRight

i totally agree, it is software after all with slight unexplained feature. more info would help sway some possibly.


----------



## Scrith

I think there can be only one explanation...they are manipulating the data that is being sent to your sound card. If they aren't...it is a ridiculous rip off (and ridiculously over-hyped). If they are...good for them, they found something that seems to appeal to a lot of people (it's still a rip off, IMHO, and I'm sure there's something that comes close that's available as a Foobar2000 plug-in, although you might have to mess around to find the right combination of DSPs and settings for them).


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think there can be only one explanation...they are manipulating the data that is being sent to your sound card. If they aren't...it is a ridiculous rip off. If they are...good for them, they found something that seems to appeal to a lot of people_

 

you, my friend, are not a magical thinking believer...this can't be good in the audio business.


----------



## saintalfonzo

This is ridiculous. Bit-perfect is bit-perfect, period.


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think there can be only one explanation...they are manipulating the data that is being sent to your sound card._

 

Of course; they have almost said so, though they haven't done so plainly. I think someone there understands that this is an audiophile market killer. It shouldn't be, as long as you can turn it off, but it is. Given the descriptions of the effects of Amarra, Almost identical to descriptions that have been attributed to the subtlest (and often psychoacoustic) tweaks, its price should be the market killer. But I'd still love to hear it. 

 P


----------



## Currawong

Lets say, theoretically, that it does something to reduce the jitter on digital output, via some software that ensures the timing of the digital signal is as good as it can be. That logic would actually make some sense to me, as my DAC is less effected by sources with a lot of jitter, and, does not have the most ideal connection from my computer (optical to PC Link II to BNC coax), meaning that either the only small amount of improvement I hear is negated by one or the other.

 This is entirely amateur speculation, of course.


----------



## DoYouRight

im willing to try it but i dont want to be locked to a mac


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_im willing to try it but i dont want to be locked to a mac_

 

Then Amarra is not for you, as it is Mac OS X only.


----------



## Quadrangulum

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sweet where Quad?_

 

I'm so sorry I didn't respond earlier. There's a local dealer for Sonic Studios here in Las Vegas.

 Anyways, I'm going to save my big write up for later but basically, the demo I had at the store sold me on it. I did this test using my DAC, headphone set up, and music so I cannot think of a way for the dealer to pull some shenanigans on me like those phony Monster "tests" at Best Buy. I heard the difference while fooling around with the software myself and did a DBT, identifying Amarra 100% of the time on ten different songs.

 I'll be getting my copy this week hopefully.


----------



## jp11801

Folks I heard the amarra system again last night and all I can say is WOW, before you dismiss this I would encourage you to hear it. Amarra sounded really wonderful and I hope a few more folks can hear it at my upcoming meet in August. 
 With regards to how it works, I have no freaking clue but I know it sounds great and I have been assured that there is no EQ or DSP in the chain to alter the sound, it is just the sonic studio engine running in the background with itunes as a GUI. Right now it it seems to work with just AIFF not ALAC but I think ALAC is coming. 

 The system I heard this in also has an EMM Labs stack and the Amarra system to me betters it. The one quibble that is being addressed is some of the set up of the dac is in a pro audio interface and needs to be simplified for home users. This is in the works and should be ready for future releases/updates.

 There was a demo of the software yesterday at the computer audiophile symposium so they may have more thoughts after hearing it yesterday.


----------



## Quadrangulum

ALAC and FLAC support are both coming in the next revision.

 What jp11801 said is absolutely correct in my opinion. If you have a Mac, you should take up Sonic Studios' offer for a free trial.


----------



## DoYouRight

It might sound amazing but how can you have bitperfect and modification unless it is EQ/DSP?


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It might sound amazing but how can you have bitperfect and modification unless it is EQ/DSP?_

 

you may have missed my "With regards to how it works, I have no freaking clue" statement in my post. I don't know how a Meridian 808 works but I know it sounds good. Same thing here I do not know how or what they are doing but I know what we heard last night. PS this was in a fellow members home who bought amarra with no Sonic Studios people present. 

 What I do understand is that neither you nor I know exactly what is happening when amarra is turned on in a system. Until proven false I'm going to have to believe what I am told by the people at Sonic Studios as they have been a leader in the pro audio industry for twenty years. 

 The best part is for folks that need to fully understand how it works to be comfortable hey just don't buy it. While I would like to know more and believe they will need to explain this better in the near future for now I am cool with what I have heard. 

 When amarra was turned on the frequency range was just as extended as off but without any of the upper frequency crap that is present in digital. Again Please do not take my word or anyone else's for that matter. Go and take a proper demo of the software.


----------



## DoYouRight

no the thing is, it does a little EQing as my cousin does this type of work, but what gets me is, how all the higher up's here are so against DSP/eq but are ok with this?

 If it sounds better than more power to it, I would use it, but those who looked down on EQ liking this now confuses me.


----------



## Bojamijams

Don't let it bother you. In only a few short months, I've realized this place is full of hypocrisy and ********.

 For example, you have a lot of people saying portable amps are useless, pointless, just go for desktop amps.. .then you see people saying the RA1 is amazing with Grado RS'1 and thats the tinyest of the tiny portable amps. So What?

 Answer.. ********... rules mean jack here... if you amplify a signal into another amplifier and then AGAIN into another, you'd get 99.9% people here calling you stupid. But I bet you someone here would love that sound instead of going just from DAC to their best amp


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoYouRight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_no the thing is, it does a little EQing as my cousin does this type of work, but what gets me is, how all the higher up's here are so against DSP/eq but are ok with this?

 If it sounds better than more power to it, I would use it, but those who looked down on EQ liking this now confuses me._

 

My only issue with eq is most people do not know how to use it. Not sure who the 'higher ups' you refer to are but eq was discussed pretty frequently around here with people on both sides of the fence.
 Unless your cousin works for sonic studio I'm not sure how he could speak with any authority on the matter.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I do understand is that neither you nor I know exactly what is happening when amarra is turned on in a system. 
 [..]
 The best part is for folks that need to fully understand how it works to be comfortable hey just don't buy it._

 

1) honestly, don't you find it disturbing that in 2009 a company is selling a "bettter" audio media player w/o any technical infos at all?
 it'd be like buying an "improved" car for +$1.5K, and the seller NOT telling you what he has changed...."oh well, it's better! take it for a ride, see for yourself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





"

 I'm sure it does sound better, they're prolly doing some DSP/noise shaping....but we're not in the 18th century anymore, it takes more than "magical" marketing these days...well, except in the audio area where you can get away w/ just about anything(cryo'ed wire, etc etc) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2) so you're saying that $1.5K is not enough to demand technical clues...and if we're not happy w/ "magical" marketing, we should just ignore the product? interesting way of thinking


----------



## Quadrangulum

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) honestly, don't you find it disturbing that in 2009 a company is selling a "bettter" audio media player w/o any technical infos at all?
 it'd be like buying an "improved" car for +$1.5K, and the seller NOT telling you what he has changed...."oh well, it's better! take it for a ride, see for for yourself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"

 I'm sure it does sound better, they're prolly doing some DSP/noise shaping....but we're not in the 18th century anymore, it takes more than "magical" marketing these days...well, except in the audio area where you can get away w/ just about anything(cryo'ed wire, etc etc) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2) so you're saying that $1.5K is not enough to demand technical clues...and if we're not happy w/ "magical" marketing, we should just ignore the product? interesting way of thinking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If I had to venture a guess, I think we _all_ find the absence of technical information positively frustrating. You quoted the solution yourself however. If you absolutely need to know how Amarra works right now, then don't buy it. I don't even think anyone's saying that in a smarmy manner either as that exhibits a great deal of consumer sense and purchasing judgments really aren't the business of anyone else.

 On the other hand, it's quite rational in my mind to make a purchase anyways as Sonic Studios is not just some upstart audiophile company. Amarra is backed up by a rich history of experience and technological leadership.

 Further, I see nothing wrong with "oh well, it's better! take it for a ride, see for for yourself." Why not try and make a purchasing decision based off of first hand experience?


----------



## leeperry

oh I see...because they've got a great rep they don't need to bother us w/ technical fluff. we just have to "trust" them when they say that they do "better-than-bitperfect audio" w/o processing it.

 reminds me of what the main doctor says in Half Life 2 : "Let me remind all citizens of the dangers of magical thinking. Be wise. Be safe. Be aware."

 or maybe the very high price tag speaks for itself...circular logical at work..."it's so expensive because it sounds so damn good, who cares about HOW and WHY 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"


----------



## Quadrangulum

That's not what I'm saying at all.

 As I said in my earlier post, I am bothered by not knowing how Amarra actually works (though to be honest, I think their website explains almost as much as it can without divulging the source code) but I've tried it and liked it and coupled with their legacy in the industry, I felt that was enough for me to jump in.

 And once again, if that doesn't sit well with you, you can cast a vote of no confidence by keeping your dollars in your pocket. That doesn't bother me at all because it isn't my business and like I said, perhaps it demonstrates some consumer wisdom. But if you can, I do think you should take the free trial. What's wrong with this?


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh I see...because they've got a great rep they don't need to bother us w/ technical fluff. we just have to "trust" them when they say that they do "better-than-bitperfect audio" w/o processing it.

 reminds me of what the main doctor says in Half Life 2 : "Let me remind all citizens of the dangers of magical thinking. Be wise. Be safe. Be aware."

 or maybe the very high price tag speaks for itself...circular logical at work..."it's so expensive because it sounds so damn good, who cares about HOW and WHY 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





"_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While I would like to know more and believe they will need to explain this better in the near future for now I am cool with what I have heard. _

 

well you'll see I quoted an earlier post where I say I'd like to know more and think they need to explain it, no?

 I never did nor do I think anyone stated a price factor in thinking it sounds good. Personally it is a lot for software and the price is going to be an obstacle particularly for those that view software as free.

 Why don't you get a listen to it before you dismiss it


----------



## Bojamijams

Would amarra work on a macbook pro that feeds an external dac through its optical out?


----------



## jp11801

I'm not sure maybe it seems to depend on the dac this is from their website

 Amarra Frequently Asked Questions 

 Q: What hardware will work with Amarra?

 A: Amarra has been qualified to work with these audio interfaces: 


 • Amarra Model Four
 • Amarra Model Three
 • Sonic Studio Series 302
 • Sonic Studio Series 303
 • Sonic Studio Series 304
 • Sonic Studio Series 305
 • Weiss Engineering Vesta, Minerva, AFI1, ADC2, DAC2
 • Lynx AES16e PCIe (Mac Pro)
 • RME Fireface 400 and 800
 • Benchmark, Empirical Audio, Wavelength
 • More interfaces are qualified each week.


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

Testing.

 P


----------



## DoYouRight

im willing to bet some people will get this "free" soon enough and it might gain popularity than when those people who don't pay for software can test and load it.


----------



## guitarplayer

Add Soniweld Diverter and Decoder to below.

 Lee

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure maybe it seems to depend on the dac this is from their website

 Amarra Frequently Asked Questions 

 Q: What hardware will work with Amarra?

 A: Amarra has been qualified to work with these audio interfaces: 


 • Amarra Model Four
 • Amarra Model Three
 • Sonic Studio Series 302
 • Sonic Studio Series 303
 • Sonic Studio Series 304
 • Sonic Studio Series 305
 • Weiss Engineering Vesta, Minerva, AFI1, ADC2, DAC2
 • Lynx AES16e PCIe (Mac Pro)
 • RME Fireface 400 and 800
 • Benchmark, Empirical Audio, Wavelength
 • More interfaces are qualified each week._


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Quadrangulum* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ALAC and FLAC support are both coming in the next revision.

 What jp11801 said is absolutely correct in my opinion. If you have a Mac, you should take up Sonic Studios' offer for a free trial._

 

I am doing exactly that. I have requested the demo. ALAC support would be huge for me. I don't see re-ripping several thousand discs--or even a few hundred--in my future. If Amarra is all it claims, I could see moving off the AppleTV in at least one of my systems. But that's a decision yet to be made. Am hoping I can get a chance to really try the demo before my vacation later this month and the Bay Area meet.


----------



## HeadLover

I really hope for windows based software soon so all the PC users be able to test it


----------



## Bojamijams

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pale Rider* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am doing exactly that. I have requested the demo. ALAC support would be huge for me. I don't see re-ripping several thousand discs--or even a few hundred--in my future. If Amarra is all it claims, I could see moving off the AppleTV in at least one of my systems. But that's a decision yet to be made. Am hoping I can get a chance to really try the demo before my vacation later this month and the Bay Area meet._

 

Please update us on your impressions PR. I would really love to hear more about this.


----------



## Reader

1s and 0s cannot be made better, you can change them but it will mean it's worse than bit-perfect.


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Reader* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1s and 0s cannot be made better, you can change them but it will mean it's worse than bit-perfect._

 

Intuitively, and objectively, I agree with you Reader. But there are enough people whose opinions bear respect here who have been persuaded, or have even listened first, and then plunked down cash, to at least make it worth the inquiry. That's why I want to find out for myself. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please update us on your impressions PR. I would really love to hear more about this._

 

I plan to Bojamijams. If I can get it all set up before going on vacation later this month, that would be ideal. I'd like to have a listening background before the mini-meet in the Bay Area on 8/8, where I understand Amarra might be available for listening. I don't have any DACs that are "qualified" for the Amarra, but what I'll do is set it up on a spare Mac Mini, running into any or all three of my modded PS Audio DL-III, Promitheus DAC, or Valab DAC [which according to Bill Allen does great with the Amarra]. From there into the Apache and out the HD800s and the JH13s. Hopefully by then, I will have my one of my balanced cables for the HD800.

 I am a bit skeptical of any sort of "greatest-thing-since-sliced-bread-helps-you-lose-weight-and-have-a-better-sex-life-moose-pee-in-a-can" stuff. And I have run into it in all sorts of hobbies and on every platform I have ever used. I am not so much turned off by their price point; though hefty, I have seen much worse prices for truly professional niche software. And working for a company that does a fair bit of software development, I am well aware of the developmental costs that can be incurred. But I am also aware that our little hobby probably looks like an attractive horizontal move from their niche. And I sure would like some better technical info than we have seen so far. Still, I don't mind trying it out.


----------



## BobMajor

There is an extensive discussion of Amarra over on AudioCircle:
Amarra testing


----------



## Pale Rider

Thanks BobMajor.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BobMajor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is an extensive discussion of Amarra over on AudioCircle:
Amarra testing_

 

Thanks for the link!
 Heading over to read up on their findings...


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BobMajor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is an extensive discussion of Amarra over on AudioCircle:
Amarra testing_

 

 Quote:


 The conclusion is:

 In order to get the same performance with Mac and iTunes that you can get for free using XP, Foobar2000 0.8.3 unmapped, you must spend $1500 on Amarra software. Amarra reduces jitter and avoids the Mac Core Audio stack. 
 

who would have thought such a thing..


----------



## BobMajor

I've been following this discussion on AudioCircle but can't say that I fully understand all the technical discussions that have occurred there.
 I think the general take on this is that Amarra if it is inplemented perfectly is somewhat better than the PC's best implementation.
 The whole field of computer audio is in dynamic flux. You can get spectacular performance from some systems at a fraction of the cost of equivalent sounding CD players.
 I recently bought a ridiculously expensive USB cable for my system (Ridge Street Audio Alethius! cable) and it tremendously improved the performance.
 Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio is constantly checking on what gives the absolute best sound. I almost think that if he found somebody else's equipment that was somewhat better than his that he would buy it for his own use and redouble his already extreme focus on improving the sound he gets from his own systems. He changes the best he offers more than once a year so the bar is constantly being raised and if you have to have the best then it can get quite expensive.
 For now I'm content with my EA Offramp Turbo 2 into CI-Audio VDA-2 DAC. I'm sure that within a few years I'll feel I have to upgrade to one of Steve's more expensive options.


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BobMajor* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is an extensive discussion of Amarra over on AudioCircle:
Amarra testing_

 

Read through the full thread, and related ones including here. I would say it still leaves room for some "mystery." One thing--and I think krmathis you or someone alluded to this earlier, i.e., that the demo reaches deep into the system files for parts of its installation--that I had preliminarily concluded is that there is some level of bypass of Core Audio, but there is enough info here and on AudioCircle to suggest that it is not a complete bypass. However, on that thread, Tuckers claims that it is only with Sonic hardware that Core Audio is bypassed. Whether he means "fully" or "partially" is unclear. Anyway, looking forward to trying the demo. Will have to convert some files back to AIFF or WAV.

 In the meantime, for a few bucks more than Amarra, I am starting to think of putting my money on the Pace Car first. Mode 3 of the Pace Car works with AppleTV which, from a GUI perspective, I still find the most pleasant and convenient way to listen to music.


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_who would have thought such a thing.._

 

Not trying to post flame-bait, but I am not so shocked. First, to be fair, that was one assessment that was only inconsistently borne out by others, in part because it wasn't the purpose of the post, though for the sake of this discussion, let's accept it as true.

 Second, note that later in that same thread, others said that the software-only iteration of Amarra does not bypass CoreAudio, thus adding to the confusion. And again suggesting that the quoted post is inaccurate.

 But most importantly, you're comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. Forget about the dollars for a moment. I am not a PC guy, but isn't it true that things like ASIO and foobar exist to overcome audio stack [e.g., kmixer] shortcomings in WinOS? And as I have read, different foobar iterations are more or less successful at this than others [i.e., some reputedly sound better than others]. The drive for audio excellence on the PC has had a massively bigger push from the software and user community. That's a good thing. Some over at AudioCircle have posted information indicating that this evolutionary development is now illuminating shortcomings in CoreAudio on OS X. In pro audio, which is heavily Mac oriented, expensive hardware/software solutions [e.g., Sonic] have been developed to meet needs of pro audio, while the consumer front end has generally been satisfied with the iTunes front end and/or an iPod. Up until about a year ago, that was pretty much me as well. Losing, or someone stealing, my Westone UM-2s led me to Head-Fi and of course my wallet has never been the same. But I have learned a boatload, and have re-trained my ears closer to where they were when I worked in higher-end audio as a youth.

 Now, as I find myself peeling the layers away and listening to the differences between DACs, etc., I am not so shocked to find that someone is finding ways to improve on Apple's CoreAudio technologies, and that in the consumer market, they haven't had much competition. Whether this might fuel a strong software/user community development remains to be seen, but I doubt it. Mac audio is pretty good, and is meeting the needs of most of its users. [BTW, same with PC audio; let's be honest, most PC users still use ordinary WinAmp or iTunes with no other changes; the average user isn't interested in figuring out foobar.] So, my guess is that this desire to "get even better" will be left to pro audio [solution already developed] and audiophiles with wallets [solution already developed finds a new market].

 I find these discussions funny in a way. When something like Amarra comes out, or even the Apogee Duet with its Firewire implementation, the other platform's users complain: "Why not for us?" not even realizing how much they sound like the way Mac users felt for so many years. Conversely, the platform justifiably crows about how it already has a a solution for free that gets it what the expensive Mac solution provides. And to that, I say:"count yourself lucky." That's the great thing about having a a driven software development community [witness the iPhone versus Pre app development debate]. On both the Mac and the PC, there is a actually a ton of free and user-developed software, and some of it is good, and a lot of it is crap. It so happens that foobar is quite good. And that is sweet. Maybe, the arrival of Amarra will cause some enterprising Mac developer to provide some competition to it. Again, I doubt it; too much fruit hegemony over the platform. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But if a foobar-equivalent were to develop on the Mac platform, then this really irrelevant free-vs.-$1500 discussion would be immaterial. What is material is whether Amarra really works, because like it or not, foobar sure isn't going to make many Mac users switch to the PC platform. _But one thing is clear: the arrival of Amarra illustrates foobar's value in spades._

 Sorry for being so long-winded. As I said, this is not intended to be flame-bait. I use both Macs and PCs. I prefer Macs, but I sure don't hate PCs [I rather wish for all the money they make that both Microsoft and Apple were better at what they do]. On each of the platforms, some really elegant stuff has been developed by big companies, e.g., Adobe, and by individuals in the user community. In this case, on the PC, that development in the user community has way outstripped the Mac, and given the Mac penetration in pro audio, I guess it is even less surprising.


----------



## leeperry

well, there's also ASIO support on MAC...not a single media player can use that? itunes is the same on PC, it won't play through a bit-perfect renderer...except if you route it through Reclock


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, there's also ASIO support on MAC...not a single media player can use that? itunes is the same on PC, it won't play through a bit-perfect renderer...except if you route it through Reclock 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah, iTunes is locked up fairly tight. But I have heard from more than one person, that iTunes-PC sounds significantly worse than iTunesMac. Not sure why or what that means. And yes, there are ASIO solutions for Mac, and they appear to be deployed in a fair bit of music production. I came across this note here:


> But of course, you need an ASIO compatible application like Cubase, Logic Audio, Reason, Live, Digital Performer, SONAR, BPM Studio, etc. If the app supports ASIO2 you'll be able to benefit from more features. you can free download USB Audio ASIO Driver for Mac OS X 1.4.9 now.


What is missing from that list is iTunes of course. And as long as iT meets the needs of 95% of its target, it's probably not likely to. One interesting question will be to see what, if any, improvement in SQ we might see in Snow Leopard's CoreAudio improvements.


----------



## leeperry

well, you can route the PC version of itunes through Reclock, and force WASAPI or KS in Reclock...so you basically get bit-perfect audio in itunes(no KMixer massacre) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 now, if their decoders lack, that's another story altogether...I know foobar decodes mp3 in 32float and processes any DSP plugin in 32float as well.

 there's got to be a media player on Mac that works through ASIO 2.0 drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so comparing AMARRA against a bit-perfect media player would make a lot more sense...especially if the Mac Core Audio does some funky resampling.


----------



## Pale Rider

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there's got to be a media player on Mac that works through ASIO 2.0 drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so comparing AMARRA against a bit-perfect media player would make a lot more sense...especially if the Mac Core Audio does some funky resampling._

 

I agree about the more apt comparison. I didn't look that hard, but I did not immediately find an ASIO-capable media player. 

 Interestingly, while wading through another thread on AudioCircle, I came across this post:

  Quote:


 ...back to the Music Player.

 It was immediately apparent that Amarra makes the audio sound different. 

 What I listened to (from my long term demo/test playlist-16/44 AIFFs):

 Both simple and moderately complex acoustic music:
 Amandrai - Ry Cooder & Ali Farka Toure
 Butterfly Mornings - Hope Sandoval
 Detlef Schrempf - Band of Horses
 Burn One Down - Ben Harper 
 Nightingale - Norah Jones

 And complex layered Electronic music with lots of synth and bass
 Turn On - Fischerspooner
 Youngkiss - Unai

 What I heard in my system:
 - A slight increase in the amount of body without any stridency in the highs and no loss in bass.
 Therefore a tad warmer.
 - Soundstage moved forward maybe 8-12 inches.
 - Detail/separation seemed slightly smudged (noticeable on percussion)
 - Noisefloor is identical
 - Output level is identical as confirmed by my Checkmate sound meter.
 * Amarra EQ was OFF

 It is a Harmonics Engine? I could describe it as a light midrange bloat. A pleasant one. Felt like switching between two different DACs. While Amarra definitely sounds different than standard iTunes, I can't say that it is better. I will try the dither option next time around.

 I wish the audio dropout was at about 1 minute+ instead of 30-35 seconds, but it is workable. It's nice that they provide a demo. There is also a 30 day full trial with dongle for demoing without the audio dropouts. That is $50 (credited to full purchase).

 I used a Wavelength Brick v2 DAC with Morter PS. The Mac used was a G5 2.3 Dual PPC with 4.5GB RAM and external FW drives on OSX 10.4. The rest of the system in link for 2 channel below.

 Cheers,
 Ed 
 

I am looking forward to trying the demo. Depending on that outcome, I could see moving from AppleTV as my server to something like a Mac Mini. But as I mentioned earlier, I am still thinking Pace Car. Rick Cullen does some of the source mods for Empirical Audio, and he did my DL-III mods, so I have written and asked his thought on inserting the Pace Car Mod. 3 between my Apple TV and DAC. At least with the Pace Car, I know exactly what it is doing.


----------



## krmathis

I received this email from Amarra yesterday.
 The Amarra Mini looks nice, although less features than the full version. Still no news about Apple Lossless support though...
  Quote:


 Hello, 

 All of us here at Sonic Studio want to thank you for trying Amarra, the Ultrafidelity Computer Music Player, and hope that your Trial has been both successful and beneficial. 
 We trust you’ve gotten an idea of why people are saying, “It’s superb! “ and “It sounds fantastic!” 

*And now there’s Amara Mini: an entry-level version of Amarra without the EQ, volume control, output meters and such, that offers the same great bit-perfect sound at resolutions up to 96kHz.
 Purchase Amarra Mini for $395 at the Amarra Webstore.* 

 <snip> 

 AMARRA INTRODUCTORY SPECIAL OFFER: 
 For a limited time, get Amarra for just $995.00 USD. That’s $500 off the retail price of $1495, a savings of 33%!! But you must act now, this offer is good through August 15, 2009! Don’t miss out on this fantastic deal! 

 To purchase Amarra now, please visit our Amarra Webstore. 

 Act Now! This is a limited time offer. 

 For questions please email us: sales@sonicstudio.com or call us at 415-460-1201. 

 Thanks again for your interest in Sonic Studio products. 
 With regards, 
 Sales Team


----------



## auee

Thanks for posting this information. I am waiting for the software to support ALAC. When that occurs, I will be tempted to try this software out.


----------



## dugq

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, you can route the PC version of itunes through Reclock, and force WASAPI or KS in Reclock...so you basically get bit-perfect audio in itunes(no KMixer massacre) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 now, if their decoders lack, that's another story altogether...I know foobar decodes mp3 in 32float and processes any DSP plugin in 32float as well.

 there's got to be a media player on Mac that works through ASIO 2.0 drivers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so comparing AMARRA against a bit-perfect media player would make a lot more sense...especially if the Mac Core Audio does some funky resampling._

 

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but itunes on the mac is bit perfect

Design w Sound » CAS 7: iTunes PC 8.1.1.10 problem


----------



## Quadrangulum

I see it still hasn't been mentioned but about two weeks ago, Sonic Studio released the 1.0.1 Amarra revision which updated the UI. Here's a picture of my desktop running it.






 Also, more news on 1.1 which will bring the FLAC and ALAC support.

  Quote:


 Amarra 1.1 - Next Release

 We are now busy starting work on Amarra 1.1 targeted for release this fall.

 The main features Amarra 1.1 include:

 • Support for Apple Lossless

 • Support for FLAC

 • Amarra Vinyl Recording and Format Converter



 What is Amarra Vinyl? Amarra Vinyl is a standalone application with the following capabilities :

 • Records Vinyl and other analog sources up to 192 kHz.

 • Import CDs

 • Burn CDs

 • Export Tracks into iTunes

 • High Quality Sample Rate Conversion


----------



## Currawong

If they support Apple Lossless with Mini, then I might seriously consider it. The Mini version is just the player, without any other features (no EQ etc).


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dugq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but itunes on the mac is bit perfect

Design w Sound » CAS 7: iTunes PC 8.1.1.10 problem_

 

hah, nice link!


----------



## Quadrangulum

The Mini version sounds like it's going to be a steal.

 I'd lose my complete version in favor of it if I didn't have so many Reference Recordings HRx files.


----------



## tuckers

The Mini will support any new file formats that Sonic supports.


----------



## Shark_Jump

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dugq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but itunes on the mac is bit perfect

Design w Sound » CAS 7: iTunes PC 8.1.1.10 problem_

 

Very good link. Some straightforward analysis with unambiguous conclusion - smells like a breath of fresh air! I note comments at the end (See below)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 2 comments to CAS 7: iTunes PC 8.1.1.10 problem 
 Tommy 
 May 27th, 2009 at 6:10 pm 
 If the itunes is bit perfect and transparent, why those expense software like Amarra can improve the sound quality?
 admin 
 May 27th, 2009 at 9:47 pm 
 Hello Tommy,

 Amarra has some user features which makes it a better choice, although Amarra also uses iTunes as database library arrangement. I can name two good features. 

 Amarra automatically changes sampling rate based on the file format. This is very good feature when you have a mixed sampling files on one play list.
 Amarra provides volume control which is better design than iTunes one. The Amarra volume control supports remote by iTunes/iPhone. This provides a total solution
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

 If this is the case Itunes Amarra for the Mac seems a lot of $$$s to spend just to avoid having to manually change audio settings (bit rate). 

 Does Almarra bring anything else to the table for Mac SQ apart from this?


----------



## scootermafia

Hmm...I trust Lee's recommendation. He's screwed around with more gear than 99% of the people on this board. He told me that no PC audio software has made him want to abandon his CD sources, only Amarra. I may have to go for the Mini version, just want the meat and potatoes, no gravy.

 People may call this software ridiculous (just saw that the regular version is $999 on sale) but people routinely spend twice what the Mini costs on one power cable. How are they not the crazy ones when this is a major change to your transport?


----------



## Pale Rider

I've been demoing the full Amarra for a few days now. It definitely makes a difference, but I am not sure what it is. My listening notes are all over the map. I am hampered by the fact that all my good equipment is hooked up to an Apple TV. My MBP also has all my files, but I am only set up to play out of USB into an iBasso Viper [with the HiFLight opamp kit that sounds like the Predator]. I re-ripped a few discs into AIFF [will be nice whem Amarra supports ALAC and FLAC], and as I said, I can hear differences, but am not sure what they are. More listening is in order. I am still troubled by the Amarra "black box," i.e., not knowing what is truly going on, and I am still unsure what this might mean for my choice of interface. I use an AppleTV right now, and while it won't play my DVD-Audio files, or rather iTunes on my MBP won't sync them over there, I love it. But the prospect of Amarra, and possibly a Sonic Studio—which I heard yesterday at the NorCal meet, and it sounded quite good—might convince me to switch to a Mac Mini and the Front Row interface.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm...I trust Lee's recommendation. He's screwed around with more gear than 99% of the people on this board. He told me that no PC audio software has made him want to abandon his CD sources, only Amarra. I may have to go for the Mini version, just want the meat and potatoes, no gravy.

 People may call this software ridiculous (just saw that the regular version is $999 on sale) but people routinely spend twice what the Mini costs on one power cable. How are they not the crazy ones when this is a major change to your transport?_

 

For the record, I don't receive any compensation from Sonic or anyone else for recommending Amarra, I do it strictly because I really do think it is a step forward in digital playback. I don't even offer it for sale, one needs to talk to VRS or Sonic for that.

 I haven't tried Amarra mini yet, just the full version, which I have running on multiple Mac computers.

 Lee


----------



## Pale Rider

Lee, if you provided this information elsewhere, my apologies for redundancy, but what hardware are you feeding with the Amarra software?


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pale Rider* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lee, if you provided this information elsewhere, my apologies for redundancy, but what hardware are you feeding with the Amarra software?_

 

Any variety of systems, you can look at my profile for the headphone gear I own. I have a crazy amount of home gear as well.

 My main reference/control "speaker based" system is a set of Sonicweld Pulserod's fed by a Sonicweld Diverter and a Mac using Amarra. 

 I also use it on a few other more "reasonably" priced systems I have set up for variety and design purposes.

 My main reference/control headphone system is either HD800's, ED9's, or ED8's, (my PS1000's, which will hopefully arrive this week...been playing the waiting game....will most likely join the three listed as a "reference" can) powered by a Sonicweld Decoder driven by a Mac with Amarra. 

 I do have multiple headphone systems set up as well, as I have a sickness and am addicted to all things headphone, so I may be listening to anything I have, on any given day, depends on the weather. 

 I blame Dan Millheim and Craig at Whiplash Audio for getting me "into" the headphone part of the hobby...

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## Pale Rider

Thanks much.


----------



## scootermafia

First I need HD800s, then a Diverter, and finally Amarra. I like the look of the Ref Three and all as a convertor, but if it doesn't even have a 96/24 chip, just an off the rack USB solution, then it is less interesting to me. Makes me think it's not going to benefit me over my little Pop Pulse.


----------



## omasciarotte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pale Rider* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_…the prospect of Amarra, and possibly a Sonic Studio—which I heard yesterday at the NorCal meet, and it sounded quite good…_

 

Dude, sorry to ask a stupid question but, what NorCal meeting are you talking about?


----------



## dallan

Put a deposit on a usb key for the trial period of the Amarra Mini today, 90% sure that I will get it after doing countless A/B using the demo(has dropouts on demo mode) with other transports, computer and otherwise. Knew it would be soon on my plate after picking up a macbook pro at the end of last month.


----------



## Twitchy_one

I just heard of this thing today & right
 after hearing about it, my wallet caught
 on fire. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'll just have to take all of you guy's word
 for it that it's the thing to have but I 
 probably won't join the inner circle. $395
 for the mini is kind of steep. Plus, I'm not
 sure the gear I have would do it justice,
 plus having to get a 1Tb external drive &
 re-ripping everything to ALAC.

 Sadly, this app will have to be last on 
 my list of things to have (down there
 with high-priced cables). I could get
 the Wadia 170i or a DACMagic for about
 the same money..something tangible that
 I can feel. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hey, does anyone know if they will sell
 it on Amazon? The company I work for
 has an awards program where I can accumulate
 things like Amazon gift certificates. I don't
 mind blowing award money on things like
 this.

 Thanks,
 Twitchy


----------



## dallan

I actually just got the 1 TB external hard drive, that's so funny. Amarra mini came in the mail yesterday. I am still waiting for the modified DLlll dac, hope it works with Amarra, my Dacmagic does.

 Here is what I am hearing after intensive A/B in yesterday when i was done converting my files to wave and AIFF....It kills itunes alone, takes out all the ragged roughness and just plain better audio. It seems to kick on Foobar thru my PC as checked before with the demo and cutouts. It actually makes the computer audio listenable and not nail bitting. 

 What it hasn't seemed to accomplish for me(and this may be attributed to the dacmagic usb input verses a digital cable) is that it doesn't have the transparency of my Oppo disc player. It seems to have a touch less dynamics too. It is so marginal that you really have to a/b carefully back and forth to hear the dynamic difference but the transparency is noticeable. Like i said above though, the Oppo is coming into the Dacmagic thru a high end digital cable and of course the Amarra is coming into a usb input so I am not sure it is a fair comparison....and compared to itunes alone it is...well no comparison.

 So I guess the questions I have to answer are: 1) will the DLlll's usb input solve some of the difference, and 2)Do I ever want to elect to use audio out of my computer instead of CD's.

 Probably bite on this one though. I have 30 days to decide, hope my PSaudio DLlll comes with in that time to help the decision.


----------



## BobMajor

Hi Dave,
 What USB cable are you using? When I upgraded my USB cable to a Ridge Street Audio Alethius! USB cable it made a jaw dropping difference to the sound quality. I'd say it was on a par with spending more than $1000 extra on a better DAC.


----------



## dallan

I am using a high end Cryo-parts usb cable, when i shifted to it 6 months ago it did make quite a difference. I think some of the problem is the dacmagic's usb input is not as good as its digital input. Also I don't know if it is even possible to get the same transparency with a computer as a dedicated disc player. Tell you though the Amarra has fixed my ongoing issue with fatigue, you may have remembered it when i was searching for warmer tubes for the Zana Duex.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I actually just got the 1 TB external hard drive, that's so funny. Amarra mini came in the mail yesterday. I am still waiting for the modified DLlll dac, hope it works with Amarra, my Dacmagic does._

 

It will work, however, you won't be able to listen to anything above 16/48 via USB.

 Did you get an external Firewire drive? Try not to use a USB external HD when using Amarra. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So I guess the questions I have to answer are: 1) will the DLlll's usb input solve some of the difference, and 2)Do I ever want to elect to use audio out of my computer instead of CD's._

 

Maybe. The DLIII uses a unremarkable USB input chip, however, maybe the mods that you are having done will help. The DLIII sounds quite good (for the price) through the S/PDIF input, IMO.

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using a high end Cryo-parts usb cable, when i shifted to it 6 months ago it did make quite a difference. I think some of the problem is the dacmagic's usb input is not as good as its digital input. Also I don't know if it is even possible to get the same transparency with a computer as a dedicated disc player. Tell you though the Amarra has fixed my ongoing issue with fatigue, you may have remembered it when i was searching for warmer tubes for the Zana Duex._

 

FYI--Dave, the CryoParts USB cable you have is my entry level cable.

 IMO, Amarra (set up correctly, on a computer that is optimzed, connected with the correct cables, and used with appropriate associated gear) is the first time computer based playback that has made me not long for vinyl and CD playback. 

 No, I DON"T sell Amarra, FWIW.

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Knew it would be soon on my plate after picking up a macbook pro at the end of last month._

 

4G RAM, minimum, I hope? Love the MBP for music playback.
 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guitarplayer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It will work, however, you won't be able to listen to anything above 16/48 via USB.

 Did you get an external Firewire drive? Try not to use a USB external HD when using Amarra. 



 Maybe. The DLIII uses a unremarkable USB input chip, however, maybe the mods that you are having done will help. The DLIII sounds quite good (for the price) through the S/PDIF input, IMO.

 Peace, 

 Lee_

 

Yes I got the external firewire harddrive per your suggestion. I am upgrading the USB input with a super clock in that input as well as a higher end clock in the upsampling.


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guitarplayer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_4G RAM, minimum, I hope? Love the MBP for music playback.
 Peace, 

 Lee_

 

I don't know the cable level, I bought it used, assumed you had just that product since none are listed on your site that i saw.

 The computer I am using is a new Macbook Pro 15" I believe it has 4G of RAM, that's what i read.


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The computer I am using is a new Macbook Pro 15" I believe it has 4G of RAM, that's what i read._

 

If it is new, it should have 4G RAM. Have fun!

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## dallan

Yes, double checked and it does have 4. Thanks Lee, and glad to hear it will work with the DLlll. Like I said, it does sound great and seems to have fixed the fatigue issue but the Dacmagic has a reputation for not having a great USB section compared to the others from what i have read so that may contribute to some of the difference in transports SQ.


----------



## BobMajor

Dave,
 You might want to try one of the higher quality Locus Design cable. The reviews for the Axis, Polestar and Nucleus cables are really impressive.


----------



## dallan

I'm thinking about that because this one can go on my old computer with the dacmagic for normal and stream audio and put a better one on the macbook pro to the DLlll. First though I need to find out what is going on with the mods! Last I heard from him the parts were not in and possibly on backorder(Ultraclock). It has been since the last week in June.


----------



## BobMajor

I'm using an Empirical Audio USB to S/PDIF convertor and follow the discussion of this maker. The buzz is that the Ultraclock is really a significant upgrade so I'd hold in there for it.


----------



## dallan

Ya, I'd like to, I almost got the Ultra in the USB section to instead of the superclock but the cost was just too much.


----------



## tricka

Hi Everyone
 I have trialed the Mini on a MBP (4Gb ram, 128 SSD) and agree the SQ was second to none. Linux + MPD was the only thing that sounded as good -different actually: Amarra is "smooth" and MPD is "raw" if that makes any sense: fidelity is the same.
 I had significant issues with the 10.6 installer that required a reinstall from back up after crashing my MBP. That alone made me return the sw for a refund. These are my complaints:
 1. Amarra is not stable under 10.6 - the sw is beta and particularly wrt to 10.6 has significant issues;
 2. the iLok is not something I want to deal with - iLok "insurance" extortionate;
 3. the GUI is intrusive at least on the mini for such simple controls;
 4. the 24/96 limit on the mini is unacceptable - I fail to see why I should shell out another $500 for 24/192;
 5. Amarra would crash mid AIFF stream for no apparent reason - this was a particular problem with a wireless NAS (apparently it does not particularly like the file path's of a NAS in general);
 6. You are limited to iTunes as a GUI - great if you like iTunes, not so great if you do not;
 7. iTunes keeps playing along with the Amarra "sound engine" - the volume is just turned down. This adds to CPU load;
 8. The sw is very expensive for what it is, particularly crippled to 24/96 in the Mini version

 Again it is the best SQ I have had from computer audio. Unfortunately that fact alone doesn't make me want to shell out US$400 for beta sw that is still buggy.

 Audio-file Engineering is apparently working on it's own playback sw. You can guarantee it will be $80 or so for the full license - not $995.
 In the meantime I am happy with Linux + MPD. It is excellent and free.

 Cheers
 Andrew


----------



## Bredin

Tricka, have you tried Windows + foobar + real ASIO? I wonder how it compares to the rest, it should be better considering everything going directly to the hardware instead of some mixers.


----------



## dallan

I have a new macbook pro as stated above and am still in my trial period of Amarra mini but have had no a single crash. I have not upgraded to snow leopard yet though so maybe i won't yet till the bugs get worked out.


----------



## tricka

I have had many iterations of Windows: XX High End, Foobar + Wasapi, Foobar + Asio etc etc. The OS-X and Linux Audio Stacks are inherently superior. Linux in particular is bit perfect out of the box and has a variety of real time kernels. Ubuntu Studio is an easy one to access.

 The issues are with 10.6. 10.5.x is stable-ish: I have a couple friends who still get freezes mid play with 10.5.x. The company is "working on the crashes" re 10.6. I am confident they will have a solution before too long. Hopefully they will address some of the other concerns I have as well.

 The SQ is great in Amarra - no question. Better than iTunes, different to MPD. Closer to vinyl. But not there yet.

 You do not need to have a super expensive system to hear it - just transparent.

 In summary great playback quality, beta software, be aware you may be in for a bumpy ride.


----------



## Bojamijams

Curious... What is MPD?


----------



## DoYouRight

music player daemon


----------



## Currawong

Just some thoughts:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tricka* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2. the iLok is not something I want to deal with - iLok "insurance" extortionate;_

 

I can see why this is in use, as the software would be "cracked" in short order without the iLok and become freely available warez.
  Quote:


 3. the GUI is intrusive at least on the mini for such simple controls; 
 

I thought you could hide Amarra and use iTunes controls?
  Quote:


 4. the 24/96 limit on the mini is unacceptable - I fail to see why I should shell out another $500 for 24/192; 
 

Well, to use 24/192 you need expensive hardware. I guess they wanted to offer it to regular audiophiles who just wanted the sound improvements without a few thousand dollars worth of outlay. There isn't a lot of music available at 24/192 anyway, and arguably no benefit to it.
  Quote:


 5. Amarra would crash mid AIFF stream for no apparent reason - this was a particular problem with a wireless NAS (apparently it does not particularly like the file path's of a NAS in general); 
 

It only supports music that is on local volumes, so that is no surprise.
  Quote:


 6. You are limited to iTunes as a GUI - great if you like iTunes, not so great if you do not; 
 

Very few people do not like iTunes, so understandable again.
  Quote:


 7. iTunes keeps playing along with the Amarra "sound engine" - the volume is just turned down. This adds to CPU load; 
 

Which, on a newish Mac, is next to nothing.
  Quote:


 8. The sw is very expensive for what it is, particularly crippled to 24/96 in the Mini version 
 

I can't help thinking that one can get serious hardware for the cost of Amarra. I'd rather spend that cash on an RME Fireface 400 personally, which re-clocks the data.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tricka* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have had many iterations of Windows: *XX High End*_

 

haha, this one is terrible!
 mastering reverb + crazy EQ, even its coder said so on computeraudiophile.com...a far cry from bit-perfect


----------



## Bredin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tricka* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have had many iterations of Windows: XX High End, Foobar + Wasapi, Foobar + Asio etc etc. The OS-X and Linux Audio Stacks are inherently superior._

 

How does the audiostack look with foobar + real asio card. It should be foobar -> hardware. I use foobar + ESI maya44 with real ASIO support. The ESI soundcard is disabled in windows, no non-ASIO application can access the card. I can't see how Linux or OSX would be any better when the whole audio stack in windows is bypassed. 

 Did you try ASIO4ALL or did you use a real ASIO card? ASIO4ALL is a Kernel-Mixer/Wasapi wrapper from what I understand, and it is not like real ASIO. The output with real ASIO is bit-perfect, so it should at least sound the same as linux & osx bit-perfect.


----------



## tricka

Hi guys
 I should say that the comments are my own impressions and experiences and everyone else will have theirs. I respect those of course.

 G'day Currawong - what in the world are you doing so far from home mate? Spring time down here now. Cockies are making a racket as I type.

 You make some valid points. Unfortunately I had significant issues with Amarra that did not reflect their marketing claims. SQ was not one of them.

 I also come at this from a time poor middle aged consumers point of view - that is when I pay $400 for OS-X sw I expect to be convenient and stable. 10.6 is not.

 Ilok is not acceptable to me. Others will disagree. I just don't care that it has acceptance in the pro world or that it is claimed to be necessary for anti piracy. Frankly I suggest SS should be lucky enough to be in a position where piracy is actually a problem to them.

 The 24/96 limitation is an issue for me for a variety of reasons- but I understand it may not be for others. I could see paying $400 for the full version sw but not $1000. It isn't worth that much to me. 

 The iTunes GUI is also a deal breaker - if it works as a Unix Daemon (which from my brief peak under the covers I thought it may) then it can be ported to any GUI. NAS support is also vital for me - I run SSD for all my OS's on all my computers (again among other things the sonic benefit is worth it to me) and various NAS solutions for music storage.

 It is not all negative. The SQ is without peer - the closest to decent vinyl I have heard. I don't know how it works but it works. I hope SS react positively to the criticism (they are well aware of my feelings) and come to market with a slightly more consumer friendly version. Personally I feel they should team up with a professional apple sw development company, spend some time, get it seamless with 10.6 and run it as a $80 App through the App shop. I suspect their revenue base would be much much larger and really at that price piracy is less of a concern. But those are just my personal views.

 Getting on to Bredin's comments. With respect I'm not getting into the bits is bits debate. I know from my own background and experience that bits are not bits and the audio engine, HAL and kernel, hw and ps make a huge difference to the SQ. I am very familiar with ASIO having had both RME and Lynx AES cards and currently a RME 9632. I have the RME card under Linux (it has ALSA support - yes I know the Lynx has OSS support but I like ALSA better) and when in Win7(occasional as it is) I use Foobar + wasapi (which I Like better than ASIO). The benefit of a Lynx is that is follows sample rate.

 Really I don't think it valid to argue "x" is better than "y": all that matters is that in your system you are satisfied with the results and happy with your listening experience. If ASIO gets you there then that is fine by me! I find for my own needs Linux + MPD with a low latency kernel running off a SSD (or even off a Flash card in a micro server I have around - the Alix 2d2) buffered to RAM is sufficient. I liked the SQ of Amarra a great deal but not the hoops I had to jump into to get it. For others those hoops are no problem.

 Best Wishes to all
 tricka


----------



## tosehee

I am hoping to try this app after reading somewhat divided impressions. I read that it works with the optical input on the mac pro.

 I had some trouble installing the software at first, but after the update on amarra, I was able to install it.

 However, I can't seem to make it work with my optical output, Here is the console output.

 9/14/09 10:30:01 PM[0x0-0x1b81b8].com.sonicstudio.amarramini[3818]Amarra Status Log:
 9/14/09 10:30:01 PM[0x0-0x1b81b8].com.sonicstudio.amarramini[3818]Amarra: Built-in Audio.
 9/14/09 10:30:01 PM[0x0-0x1b81b8].com.sonicstudio.amarramini[3818]Amarra: Audio Interface not qualified: Built-in Digital Output.
 9/14/09 10:30:01 PM[0x0-0x1b81b8].com.sonicstudio.amarramini[3818]Amarra: Please report any problems.

 Does anyone know for certain that it works with optical output for sure?


----------



## dallan

I just plugged in my optical to the dac, unplugged my usb and went to preferences to be sure that the mac had switched over, restarted Amarra/itunes and it worked perfect, no glitch at all. I am using Leopard though, I vaguely remember you upgraded to Snow Leopard, that may be the issue (but others are using it with Snow Leopard). With a brief listen though i didn't like it as well as the usb line as I stated earlier....think the optical on the mac is sorta weak.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just plugged in my optical to the dac, unplugged my usb and went to preferences to be sure that the mac had switched over, restarted Amarra/itunes and it worked perfect, no glitch at all. I am using Leopard though, I vaguely remember you upgraded to Snow Leopard, that may be the issue (but others are using it with Snow Leopard). With a brief listen though i didn't like it as well as the usb line as I stated earlier....think the optical on the mac is sorta weak._

 

Yes. I am using the Snow Leopard. I have no other usb or dac. Just straight optical out to Ref1.


----------



## Currawong

You might need to download the latest version of Amarra. It was confirmed by Amarra themselves that it works with optical, but is not officially supported.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might need to download the latest version of Amarra. It was confirmed by Amarra themselves that it works with optical, but is not officially supported._

 

I did download the latest which is 1.0.1 of Amarra mini. 

 edit: The previous version didn't even install successfully.


----------



## tuckers

Amarra will work with Toslink out through Built In Audio. I am aware of a few problems with it that might have to do with how other software may have configured your built in output.

 Have you contacted Sonic for support? They can help in this situation.

 I am currently testing Amarra with Snow Leopard, and it has worked. I am getting some Snow Leopard issues with network attached storage, and some odd crashes while doing many tasks in Snow Leopard. So my experience with Amarra is not totally stable because of this, but the cause may not be Amarra itself. 

 I would recommend waiting a month or two before upgrading to Snow Leopard to ensure that any issues that might converge with Amarra will be fixed. 

 Some people do not like the iLok dongle, but it gives a user some additional choices that most software does not. For instance you can run Amarra on multiple machines, all you have to do is insert the iLok in the machine you want to use. Most software licenses only cover one installation. Also, if you lose the install disk of a piece of software with the registration code on it, there is typically no way to recover it. You are more screwed than with an iLok. Try calling up Adobe and asking them to restore your registration number for Photoshop!


----------



## tricka

10.6.1 is stable on my MBP. I have had no issues except with Amarra. It is beta sw and should be disclosed as such. 


  Quote:


 Some people do not like the iLok dongle, but it gives a user some additional choices that most software does not. For instance you can run Amarra on multiple machines, all you have to do is insert the iLok in the machine you want to use. Most software licenses only cover one installation. Also, if you lose the install disk of a piece of software with the registration code on it, there is typically no way to recover it. You are more screwed than with an iLok. Try calling up Adobe and asking them to restore your registration number for Photoshop! 
 

This argument is flawed. SW is usually activated once and left on the hw. With Amarra you have to activate it every time you want to use it via the iLok. 

 The risk of losing an install serial number (which most people safely store in one place if physical media and on your back up if digital) is less of concern to me than the potential risk of physical loss/damage of an iLok that requires you plug it into a USB port in order to use Amarra. Reactivation of licences, I suggest, has never been an issue - typically the code is contained in an email or online in your account with eg Adobe. I regularly recover activation keys for products. It is simply scare mongering to talk of difficulty in this area.

 In any event you disclose your dealer status:

  Quote:


 VRS Audio Solutions, Dealer for Sonic Studio Amarra Software and Hardware. 
 

and accordingly you have an interest in promoting Amarra and it's ease of use.


----------



## linuxworks

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some people do not like the iLok dongle, but it gives a user some additional choices that most software does not._

 

what spin!

 dongles are evil.

 case closed.

 never buy things have that hardware locks. been there, never going back again.


----------



## linuxworks

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tricka* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the meantime I am happy with Linux + MPD. It is excellent and free._

 


 damn straight 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 mpd is a great architecture.

 it sends out bits just fine. let the dac take it from there. that's the important part of the equation anyway; not the sender but the receiver. it ALL depends on the receiver.

 digital audio is not hard. it really isn't. not sure why companies can get away with the 'sell' that its hard. its not. hasn't been since win2k era! (win95 sucked and win98 did too; but anything win2k and newer (in age) manages digital audio JUST FINE).


----------



## dallan

Well good for you guys, I like it enough that I just pulled the lever on the Amarra Mini(3 1/2 weeks into my trial), haven't really been able to tolerate computer audio with my set up until now so it is either this program or go back to digging for cds and burning cds to play from downloads. Worth it to make my computer usable. Even my pc with Foobar and asio although much better than anything that i had previously tried, could be tolerated for extended periods like the Amarra.


----------



## linuxworks

just curious, before you spent money on 'computer audio' software, have you TRIED a linux system?

 I realize that windows can be a struggle since it works against you (it wants to convert to 48k, etc etc). linux does no such things and its trivial to get linux to work just fine in audio.

 linux buffers every file access to/from ram and it plays back from ram. if you don't have your system doing 'lots of things' intentionally, you wont' lose data (buffer underruns due to the o/s being too busy on other things). ie, linux won't pause or delay or hang during playback.

 I just don't get how digital audio is hard, anymore. anything better than a pentium-2 should handle audio with no sweat at all.

 I gave up trying to get windows to do VIDEO (hd video) playback well. that is still problematic and I 'gave up' and got myself a set-top media streamer box. that's clock perfect and never drops a video frame or loses a/v sync.

 it seems pretty extreme to pay 4 figures just to playback audio perfectly on a computer.


----------



## tuckers

In my other business, employees have lost several Abobe licenses and Adobe has never been responsive, and I have never gotten a replacement license key from them. But I will take your word for it.


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *linuxworks* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it seems pretty extreme to pay 4 figures just to playback audio perfectly on a computer._

 

Four figures, if you are referring to me I bought the Amarra Mini not the full program, don't need the full program I don't thing, and even that is under a grand by a tad. Still to rich for my blood.


----------



## tricka

With the greatest of respect to all posters I would suggest it is not productive to get into a pro Amarra vs anti Amarra war here.

 I certainly was not trying to ignite that - simply report my personal experiences. Others will disagree and have their own. As is proper.

 Having experienced Amarra's SQ I can attest on a transparent system it is excellent. Probably better than MPD. Most likely the best I have heard. Will it make a $200 dac sound like a $10,000 dac - no. Would the $400 be better spent on a dac? probably not. Would $1000 for the full licence be better spent on a better dac - almost certainly. If you already have a great dac - money well spent? most likely.


 But there are hoops to jump through and there are limitations in it's architecture. And it is beta. If you want to pay to be a beta tester go right ahead. I got over that a long time ago.

 Linux + MPD has problems too - principally from a hw point of view (for instance firewire support is almost non existent in Linux). 

 Again I reiterate that it is horses for courses, as we say here in Oz. What will suit one will not suit another. And that is fine.

 It is early days and I congratulate SS for bringing to market such a valuable addition to the audiophile arsenal. I simply hope they evolve it into a suitable product. I feel they are bloody cheeky asking $400 for beta sw while telling you you are getting a bargain as an "early adopter" but that is just my opinion. My own view is that $400 will look expensive in a year's time. Roll on Audio-file Engineering.

 As an aside one thing I do not understand is why SS would employ a dealer network. What use is that?

 Anyone into computer audio generally knows enough to load the program - or can work it out. They know enough to follow instructions.

 Certainly in Australia what the distributor/dealer knows about computer audio you could write on the back of a postage stamp. Why should I pay a retail margin for him being a post office. Ditto VRS. What do you bring to the table that SS doesn't? Expertise? In what. Mailing iLok's?

 Why not simply wholesale Amarra, offer 30 day free trial dl's with the option to buy a license during that time. Works for 99% of the world. Why the iLok? Stupidity personified. But then again you are dealing with audiophile's....

 All IMHO etc etc
 Cheers
 A


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *linuxworks* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it seems pretty extreme to pay 4 figures just to playback audio perfectly on a computer._

 






 That is a pretty funny statement, actually.


----------



## tosehee

I just got it to work somehow. Don't ask me how. I kept re-installing, and one got through I guess.

 I don't know what to say. I am little tired right now to give a real thorough AB comparison, but I gotta say that I do believe that I hear a difference. Call me crazy, cuz that's what I thought too. I don't know what it does, but the sound seems fuller, more soundstage, more separation, more bass, and etc.

 If you follow my comments, you will see me as non-believer, and I still do not believe that as software to software, there should be no difference. But, I seem to hear the difference. What... #*@#@#

 I am listening to the song "Oh Danny Boy" and "Tennessee waltz" which I listen quite alot, and the sound seems more holographic (3d like) in these two songs... 

 The differences aren't major, but there is subtle differences that I can hear. 

 Take it however you want.


----------



## dallan

For me it may have done that but I noticed it more in the "edge" being taken off of itunes. It was a softening with out loss of definition or dynamics, maybe even a touch more dynamics. Usually I feel when i get the softening you lose those things but not with the Amarra.


----------



## tosehee

I was thinking of getting squeezebox touch, but I will have to debate hard which one to get now. I am kinda sold now even though I still need to do more objective testing when I am less tired.


----------



## santacore

I bought the mini version about a month ago. Support has not been great, and neither has reliability. That said the sound quality is a jump up and worth the headaches. I can't imagine going back to regular iTunes now.


----------



## tricka

FWIW I found the switch to a SSD for the OS on all my various playback computers as valuable as Amarra SQ wise. Perhaps that is why I liked it, thought it was great, but did not have a religious experience like some others. I understand that if you are using a plain HDD spinner the jump is quite dramatic, as it should be with a RAM player.


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought the mini version about a month ago. Support has not been great, and neither has reliability. That said the sound quality is a jump up and worth the headaches. I can't imagine going back to regular iTunes now._

 

I have called them and emailed them and responses have been immediate and always fixed any issue or question. I am actually blown away with their customer service.


----------



## tuckers

tosehee, your description of the difference is pretty consistent with the response of the majority of our customers. It has a more dramatic difference on some systems than others, but the basic sound qualities are the same.


----------



## tosehee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tosehee, your description of the difference is pretty consistent with the response of the majority of our customers. It has a more dramatic difference on some systems than others, but the basic sound qualities are the same._

 

I wish I know "how" it works instead of guessing game here. Is it helping out with jitter? or DSP? or ?


----------



## 1117

Does Amarra incorporate some crossfeed into the playback?


----------



## tuckers

No Amarra does not incorporate a crossfeed filter.


----------



## iamoneagain

I found out about this software at a local meet but wasn't too interested at first. I thought it was $1500 until I found the mini player at a reasonable price for $400. Then I saw it couldn't play Apple lossless files. And lastly I couldn't find much about whether it would work just thru optical out. So after some research and new update to play lossless, this was looking a lot more promising.

 I spent the last few days just testing this out with random song sections. I had a hard time telling the difference at first. I knew the songs sounded better than I ever heard them but then when I switched back to just iTunes, I couldn't figure out what was different. I wanted to make sure my head wasn't playing tricks on me. I also didn't want to buy this software if it didn't really work.

 After some time I noticed more depth, clarity, and separation to the music. Songs with a lot going on or with electric guitar were easier to hear the difference. So after finding several songs that seemed flat compared to using Amarra, I broke down and bought the mini player.

 Feeling a little guilty and unsure if I made the right choice, I asked my wife to listen to the demo. Right off the bat, she easily heard the difference. Said she could hear more detail, depth, and the instruments stood out more.

 I also want to say what great customer service they have. Order at around 4 today and received an email right away. Figured it was more of a form email but then I asked some followup questions and got a reply back within a half hour. Also got an email not long ago showing it already shipped out. 

 Still don't know why it works but I know that it does. And this is just thru optical out.

*Oh, just want to make sure everyone knows the update is out to play Apple Lossless files. Now you have no reason to use AIFF or WAV files. It still doesn't play FLAC but I'm not sure how you would load those files into iTunes in the first place.*


----------



## santacore

Quote:


 After some time I noticed more depth, clarity, and separation to the music. 
 

I own the mini version and your experience mirrors mine. It was kind of like going from standard broadcast to high def. TV. The picture is basically the same, but there's so much more detail and clarity. I'm not sure why it works, but it does, and has made a dramatic difference in my system.


----------



## dallan

I didn't know that the update to play with applelossless was out, I have been downloading with aiff this whole time and waiting for an email on the update. I checked recently and didn't see it up for the mini yet. I just got the mini less than two months ago too.

 Edit-Just downloaded it, thanks much!


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't know that the update to play with applelossless was out, I have been downloading with aiff this whole time and waiting for an email on the update. I checked recently and didn't see it up for the mini yet. I just got the mini less than two months ago too.

 Edit-Just downloaded it, thanks much!_

 

Dace, 

 Let us know your thoughts on ALAC playback -vs- AIFF. I, for one, would be interested.

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## dallan

I am trying it now but with the optical output because i have been listening to 24 bit files.....oops..... so I can't turn it up real loud because wife is sleeping but at this level I haven't heard a difference, which is surprising to me, I can usually hear it. I will have to crank it tomorrow and see if i can notice a change when a/b ing. In the mean time I am freeing up tons of space on my laptop.

 Edit-may be a hair thinner in Lossless.


----------



## krmathis

Really pleased to see that Apple Lossless support made its way into version 1.1.
 I registered for a trial period some months back, but just before installing I noticed that it lacked Apple Lossless support and hence never completed the installation or trial. Now may be the time to try again...


----------



## santacore

Lee,

 With out thinking about it I was listening to both yesterday. The biggest compliment I can give is that I didn't notice a difference when I was switching between .wav and .alac. In the past whenever I played alac, the thin bright high end really stood out. I didn't notice that yesterday, everything just sounded right.


----------



## dallan

Hey John,
 I actually am hearing the difference and am changing everything around to accommodate it. I have converted my ALAC files back to aiff on my external hard drive and kept a copy on my macbook pro of the alac. Then checked my aiff files for when I am home and put in comment on macbook for the files on that drive. Basically going to have two sets, one on the external hard drive that i listen to on the detailed home equipment and one of alac that I can listen to when I am out and about by choosing a smart playlist that designates macbook in the comment section. I can use the Amarra with my pico dac when out but I don't think with outside noise that the discspace is worth the uncompressed.

 Sound complicated?


----------



## santacore

Quote:


 Sound complicated? 
 

Ahhh......yeah......

 Good to hear you're enjoying things. I never went through the hassle you did. I re-ripped some keys CD's and left all the rest ALAC, hoping that one day soon they would take of it. Now I can finally listen to my whole collection without worry. Very good indeed!


----------



## dallan

There you go. I am just like you but have a couple of extra letters maybe like a little "O" a little "c" and a touch of "D"....add to that an "A" how bout a "D" and "H" and a "D".


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now I can finally listen to my whole collection without worry. Very good indeed!_

 

Nice, isn't it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lee,

 With out thinking about it I was listening to both yesterday. The biggest compliment I can give is that I didn't notice a difference when I was switching between .wav and .alac. In the past whenever I played alac, the thin bright high end really stood out. I didn't notice that yesterday, everything just sounded right._

 

Yeah, Jon from SS really outdid himself on 1.1 (3189), IMO.

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and a touch of "D"....add to that an "A" how bout a "D" and "H" and a "D".
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

A couple drams of Laphroaig helps that right out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Lee


----------



## dallan

So Lee have you tried the alac on it?


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So Lee have you tried the alac on it?_

 

Indeed. At this point, I find ALAC almost indistinguishable from AIFF. But, I have a LOT more listening to do, on different systems, to form a final opinion. I am not one to form opinions quickly, it takes me a while of "living" with something to come to terms with what a component (or whatever) really does, or doesn't.

 I'm so sold on Amarra, that I sprung for a second full copy, so I wouldn't have to lug the iLok from home to the shop. The iLok weighs all of a couple of ounces you know...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Actually, it's because I forgot the iLok at home (which is 25 miles from my shop) a couple of times and really missed it on my shop systems, as I use it for all critical listening.

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## dallan

Do you find you need the full copy. I love the sound but I don't do much equalizing and can't rationalize it for the cost now. I guess my question is, What is it about the full version that you use most of appricate?


----------



## guitarplayer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you find you need the full copy. I love the sound but I don't do much equalizing and can't rationalize it for the cost now. I guess my question is, What is it about the full version that you use most of appricate?_

 

Frankly, for most, the mini is probably the right product to get. It sounds identical (at least to me) to the full version and does up to 24/96, which is what almost all hi-rez downloads are. 

 I have a fair bit of 24/192 material, and I want the upcoming abilities of archiving stuff at 24/192, so the full version makes sense for me.

 I bet there is an upgrade program in place as well for those that purchase the mini, and later decide to upgrade to the full version. However, don't hold me to that, as I do not sell Amarra, or speak for them. I'm just a fan.

 Peace, 

 Lee


----------



## dallan

Ya I talked to Lee at SS and he said there was an upgrade program.


----------



## scootermafia

Not about to upgrade my Mini. Yeah, 1.1 adds some nice SQ. Oh, and ALAC sounds every bit as good as wav.


----------



## iamoneagain

I got my iLok so I can now listen without the pauses. It's getting much easier to hear the difference Amarra makes. Hear more depth and just a crisper sound. When I turn it off, the music sounds almost the same but is just missing a little something. To me, this little something seems to add the realism that was missing. 

 I actually got the iLok at the begining of the week but my iMac was held hostage all week at the Apple store to fix a bad screen. Just got it back today.

 So everything seems to be working pretty good except my 24/96 tracks. They don't have any sound even when I shut Amarra off. I've only got two albums in this format, so it's not a big deal but something I'll need to fix. I know they worked when I was just playing around in demo mode last week. I even uninstalled and reinstalled the Amarra software. If I can't figure out on my own, I'll see what the company says.


----------



## dallan

It works with 24 bit with me perfectly. Sometimes if there is no sound you need to check Amarra's volume or quit and relaunch. As far as ALAC it is almost indistinguishable from uncompressed for me. I have to put it on my most detailed system and turn it up, then a/b back and forth to hear any difference at all and it seems only a very slight thinning. So I kept the uncompressed on my external when that is in line and on the computer or portable external I am just using ALAC.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It works with 24 bit with me perfectly. Sometimes if there is no sound you need to check Amarra's volume or quit and relaunch. As far as ALAC it is almost indistinguishable from uncompressed for me. I have to put it on my most detailed system and turn it up, then a/b back and forth to hear any difference at all and it seems only a very slight thinning. So I kept the uncompressed on my external when that is in line and on the computer or portable external I am just using ALAC._

 

Got it to work. Just had to reboot and do another reinstall. I'm not even going to bother comparing AIFF files to ALAC. I have 550gb of music in ALAC, so that's how my files are staying. I did have them in AIFF before ALAC came out, but also had less than half the collect I have now. Even with a 1 terabyte hard drive, things are starting to fill up with the addition of raw photo files. I know it recommends to have a dedicated music server, but I think maybe less web surfing while I listen is as far as I go.


----------



## shamu144

I have been reading with lot's of interest the thread. I will definitely give it a try before making any judgement, especially now that it can handle ALAC as well. I understand the Demo version is easy to install, but that I will get random silence during playback if I do not request an iLock.

 Once thing though that is really worrying me. i see some issues with long name tracks (above 30 characters), and I have plenty of those. 

 Another big issue for me is the impossibility to play gapless tracks. Is that true? I mean, do you get silence between 2 tracks when they were ripped as "gapless".

 If so, that would probably be a deal breaker for me... I would be happy to hear your experiences regarding those last 2 points raised above, for those of you who already use it intensively.

 Thanks,


----------



## iamoneagain

I believe they fixed the long file name problem buy cannot confirm this myself. It also looks like they are working in the gapless problem. It's probably about a 1 second gap at the moment. You can always toggle it off for your albums that need to be gapless. I'd say the sound quality is better enough to get now and use for the albums where it doesn't matter.

 Well I'm currently without my iMac again since apple screwed up my repair. Only got to listen to Amarra for a few hours.


----------



## Champ10

I just read this entire thread and didnt see any mention of the question I'm about to ask. So if I missed somehow, I apologize...........

 The Amarra websight claims that solid state drives sound better. 

 Why?


----------



## bixby

Quote:


 I just read this entire thread and didnt see any mention of the question I'm about to ask. So if I missed somehow, I apologize...........

 The Amarra websight claims that solid state drives sound better.

 Why? 
 

If you have read the entire thread, you will have also noticed that other things that supposedly sound better have little or no hard proof to back them up either. Same with SSDs. Many well respected folks can hear a difference and like them, but there has not been any definitive proof as to why.

 Much like lots of things in this hobby actually. Why does wire sound different? And I don't mean ohm's law variables.

 If you want to read a bit more about it from other a'philes, head on over to Computer Audiophile and read some of those threads. No answers, though. Some links to discussions about long term reliability of SSDs as well.

 cheers


----------



## shamu144

I installed Amarra mini Demo version today and gave it a short listen... Yes indeed, the effect on the music is noticeable, though definitely not a night or day difference, at least in my current system, rather very subtle in my case. It made the music played through Amarra somehow more relaxed, more refined, flowing with ease, especially noticeable with voices. Quite surprising I must admit. But music without Amarra sounded already pretty good, so I feel very little to no frustration at all when I turn Amarra off.

 I also confirm that long name tracks are now handeled properly. However, I also confirm that gapless tracks can NOT be played gapless, and this is for me the only thing that will pull me back for the moment.

 There is no way I spend $400 on a music playback software that is not able to handle gapless tracks. I'll be in once this major flaw is fixed. Untill then, I will just keep enjoying iTunes on my MB.

 Botton line: there really seems to be more than just bits when it comes to computer playback... Fascinating. This learning curve is quite steep indeed !


----------



## Dan Millheim

Qualifier: I'm making the switch to a dedicated computer based system so I don't have much experience with this technology on the audiophile level in which I am accustomed. At first, I was very concerned as standard iTunes was not giving me the desired SQ of my old system. I demoed Amarra and the improvement was very, very dramatic! In short, standard iTunes was flat, dull lifeless. Amarra impacts musical dimension,depth and spacial qualities allowing music to breath in an almost 3D affect without it sounding artificial. I really think that without Amarra, using a computer as a source, would have been very brief! Now all I need is my new Sonicweld Decoder Dac and Locus Design USB to be delivered and I will be in audio bliss!


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dan Millheim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now all I need is my new Sonicweld Decoder Dac and Locus Design USB to be delivered and I will be in audio bliss!_

 

That's for sure, lucky you.


----------



## C.L

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bixby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you have read the entire thread, you will have also noticed that other things that supposedly sound better have little or no hard proof to back them up either. Same with SSDs. Many well respected folks can hear a difference and like them, but there has not been any definitive proof as to why.

 Much like lots of things in this hobby actually. Why does wire sound different? And I don't mean ohm's law variables.

 If you want to read a bit more about it from other a'philes, head on over to Computer Audiophile and read some of those threads. No answers, though. Some links to discussions about long term reliability of SSDs as well.

 cheers_

 

NO! SSD sounds better because of lower noise level. It is hardly noticed on my headphone rig, but the difference can be found on my speaker rig without critical listening.


----------



## punk_guy182

Amarra looks very interesting but quite expensive.
 Is there a cheaper alternative besides a well configured Foobar2000?


----------



## BobMajor

I haven't used it but have been researching comments on XXhighend player. People say that the latest version is really much better than Foobar2000. I haven't made the switch because I still want to use the equalizer in Foobar which xxhighend doesn't have.


----------



## burnspbesq

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *punk_guy182* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amarra looks very interesting but quite expensive.
 Is there a cheaper alternative besides a well configured Foobar2000?_

 

Can't speak to your question about alternatives, but "expensive" depends on the context.

 Amarra cost me $995. The hardware upgrades I was considering, but am now willing to defer, would have cost well over $4k. So is Amarra expensive, or a bargain?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iamoneagain* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got my iLok so I can now listen without the pauses. It's getting much easier to hear the difference Amarra makes. Hear more depth and just a crisper sound._

 

Yes, this is exactly what it does but apparently I am the only one who feels it is not a positive difference. It puts too much treble into the music, and maybe if you aren't using a high-end DAC this would be of benefit, and of course depends on your headphones. The added depth is nice but it seems surreal. I think Amarra takes more away than it provides. And there is no way I could ever use the mini version, because taming that treble with the equalizer is a necessity. But even with my computer speakers I can tell that it's taking away from the natural tonal balance of the music. I really don't understand how they can claim it is bit-perfect. Maybe bit-perfect input from iTunes, but what is going to the DAC or your computer speakers has been modified, assuredly. How can I know this? Because I am familiar with many songs that I have been listening to for well over a decade on many systems, and everything now has a bright tinge added with Amarra. Amarra is basically an expensive SRS-WOW plug-in. This fad too shall pass.


----------



## dallan

That is an interesting view PJ because I find that Amarra just softens and smoothes out the digital edges that itunes has. There is some (a little) more depth and a smoother(analog?) sound that is not as harsh but I am not hearing any more treble at all. Guess we all really hear differently, normally I fall in line with a lot of your listening too.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dallan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is an interesting view PJ because I find that Amarra just softens and smoothes out the digital edges that itunes has. There is some (a little) more depth and a smoother(analog?) sound that is not as harsh but I am not hearing any more treble at all. Guess we all really hear differently, normally I fall in line with a lot of your listening too._

 

You are also using a tube amp. That may soften things up. Do you have computer speakers you can also try it with, or a solid state headphone amp you can try?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *burnspbesq* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amarra cost me $995. The hardware upgrades I was considering, but am now willing to defer, would have cost well over $4k. So is Amarra expensive, or a bargain?_

 

sounds like the deal of the century to me!


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, this is exactly what it does but apparently I am the only one who feels it is not a positive difference. It puts too much treble into the music, and maybe if you aren't using a high-end DAC this would be of benefit, and of course depends on your headphones. The added depth is nice but it seems surreal. I think Amarra takes more away than it provides. And there is no way I could ever use the mini version, because taming that treble with the equalizer is a necessity. But even with my computer speakers I can tell that it's taking away from the natural tonal balance of the music. I really don't understand how they can claim it is bit-perfect. Maybe bit-perfect input from iTunes, but what is going to the DAC or your computer speakers has been modified, assuredly. How can I know this? Because I am familiar with many songs that I have been listening to for well over a decade on many systems, and everything now has a bright tinge added with Amarra. Amarra is basically an expensive SRS-WOW plug-in. This fad too shall pass._

 

I'm not sure that you know what it does, do you? If you did you'd know that Amarra does not use Itunes for playback at all other than to tell it what song to load into its playback engine. That playback engine is Sound Blade from Amarra's parent company Sonic Studio. Sound Blade is one arguably the best sounding digital recording software available. So once again your supposition is incorrect as to amarra modifying the signal from itunes. When amarra is engaged itunes playback is muted and amarra is playing the music file simultaneously with itunes. 

 Also tube amps are neither brighter nor are they softer than their solid state counterparts. Tubes can be very linear devices it is purely a factor of design.


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are also using a tube amp. That may soften things up. Do you have computer speakers you can also try it with, or a solid state headphone amp you can try?_

 

The Zana is not a very tubey sounding tube amp actually, but i know you have heard it. In a quick a/b just now with my DX1000s and my Lisa lll amp(solid state) which is very sterile sounding to me generally, the sound going back and forth is that Amarra is more dynamic and itunes is more flat sounding. Maybe that is what you are saying as the "wow" factor. There sounds like there is more space between the instruments and just more ummph...ya dynamics but not treble to my ear. I don't know that i ever tried a/b ing this lineup-very interesting difference. 

 My main comparing was with the HD800s and the stock cables and the Amarra really cut that digital shrill/edge that I was getting with the stark sound of the stock cables into the 800s with the Zana amp which is not warm and tubey but more detail oriented from my seat as i said above. A point of fact is that i seem to even get that digital edge from computer audio thru the Zana with the HD650s when not using Amarra. 

 I have to say that with the comparing with this set up - Lisa lll->DX1000s I really hear the improvement of the Amarra, maybe even more so than with the 800s with the new cables. The new DHC recable cuts the shrill too but at the expense of a tad of detail maybe so the Amarra change in that area is not as apparent. The improvement in the case of the Lisa-DX1000s seems more of a dynamic/soundstage opening. Considering that I am always trying to get away from the flat sounds of cheaper dacs and such, this is a good thing.

 Merry Christmas by the way PJ to you and to the rest here on this thread as well.


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

Quote:


 I'm not sure that you know what it does, do you? 
 

Does anyone know what it does? If you do, please fill us in. Sonic Studios won't give it up.

 P


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Phelonious Ponk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know what it does? If you do, please fill us in. Sonic Studios won't give it up.

 P_

 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Amarra does not use Itunes for playback at all other than to tell it what song to load into its playback engine. That playback engine is Sound Blade from Amarra's parent company Sonic Studio. Sound Blade is one arguably the best sounding digital recording software available. When amarra is engaged itunes playback is muted and amarra is playing the music file simultaneously with itunes. _

 

Now what they have not answered is why it sounds better but if you do a search on pro audio sites like gearslutz you find that recording engineers feel that audio software sounds different with many preferring the sound of sound blade which is the basis for amarra.


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now what they have not answered is why it sounds better..._

 

Right. 1) There is the data. 2) There is the possibility of analog noise being picked up by the lines that carry the data. 3) There is the timing of the data. 4) There is something new, previously undiscovered. An unprecedented breakthrough in the processing of digital information. 

 For reasons I'm sure you already understand, Amarra has to make its difference at #1 or #4.

 p


----------



## jp11801

what you will find is every software sounds different, songbird sounds different from itunes, wave editor sounds different from Bias Peak and so on. I do not code software so I can not speak to the reasons they sound different but they do. 

 I am far from the only person saying this if you visit pro audio sites you'll see comments comparing the sound of different programs


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what you will find is every software sounds different, songbird sounds different from itunes, wave editor sounds different from Bias Peak and so on. I do not code software so I can not speak to the reasons they sound different but they do. 

 I am far from the only person saying this if you visit pro audio sites you'll see comments comparing the sound of different programs_

 

I understand, and get that people hear differences between the programs, but pro audio evaluation doesn't really tell us anything, as pro use of these programs is radically different. When pros talk about the differences between programs like Soundforge and iZotope, they are talking about differences they hear in their daily use of these programs to manipulate, not simply play back, digital audio. Still, you're far from the only person saying this. There are quite a few audiophiles on the boards who hear differences in players, even when playing bit-perfect files into the same equipment. And still, if these differences exist, it is either analog noise, digital timing or an unidentified technological breakthrough.

 Or the files aren't bit-perfect.

 P


----------



## iamoneagain

Amarra 1.2 is now out. The big new feature is gapless playback. You need to select the tracks first to make a playlist is all. Also, the mini player is on sale for $295 until 1/20/10.

Amarra Computer Music Player
Amarra :: In The News


----------



## dallan

Wow, I paid just shy of 400. ouch!


----------



## adriena

I'm puzzled about the responses I'm reading in this thread, too. Actually, of the things I missed at Can Jam 2009, Voltron's full Amarra setup is at or near the top of my list.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adriena* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm puzzled about the responses I'm reading in this thread, too. Actually, of the things I missed at Can Jam 2009, Voltron's full Amarra setup is at or near the top of my list._

 

What's puzzling?

 Spending more time with it, the first thing I notice is clearer mids. The vocals sound more natural. Also, I always liked the twangy sound Grados gives to the electric guitar and my L3000 were right up there with them. This just gives them that extra bit of twang I thought they were missing. And lastly, it increasing the depth of the soundstage just a bit. It's all very subtle in my setup, but I think it brings out the last bit of improvement for not too much extra.

 This latest update is supposed to improve the sound over the last one. I can't really tell the difference but I guess you have to do a back and forth to hear it. In some of the other forums people were complaining that previous versions sounded better than 1.1, so I guess that's what was addressed. 

 They fixed it so it doesn't ask every time you restart if you want to set volume at max. The gapless feature works pretty good except you can't see the playing time moving on itunes using it. I guess if you're relaxing to a whole album, it doesn't matter. Haven't tried direct cd playing but this isn't something I'd ever use. I backup my music and trade the cds towards new purchases.

 Anyway, I really wasn't expecting anything new until sometime after the new year, so it was a pleasant surprise.


----------



## santacore

iamoneagain, thanks for the tip on the update. For some reason I don't get alerted to those. 

 I find that Amarra mini increases the resolution of my system. Everything sounds more focused and defined. I also get more detail and tighter bass. Contrary to PJ, I don't feel that it adds anything except more resolution. 

 Expensive, yes, but in my opinion it was worth the price. For me it's equivalent to getting an equipment upgrade. I honestly don't think I could listen to regular iTunes after experiencing this.


----------



## dallan

Me neither and with that sale it is a steal!


----------



## melomaniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_iamoneagain, thanks for the tip on the update. For some reason I don't get alerted to those. 

 I find that Amarra mini increases the resolution of my system. Everything sounds more focused and defined. I also get more detail and tighter bass. Contrary to PJ, I don't feel that it adds anything except more resolution. 

 Expensive, yes, but in my opinion it was worth the price. For me it's equivalent to getting an equipment upgrade. I honestly don't think I could listen to regular iTunes after experiencing this._

 

a ringing endorsement. but is the mini version truly worth it, or does it feel to the early adopters around here like a compromise?


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *melomaniac* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_a ringing endorsement. but is the mini version truly worth it, or does it feel to the early adopters around here like a compromise?_

 

I have no need to the full version. I don't have any files over 96khz and don't need any of the eq settings. As long as the sound is the same as the full version is all that matters.


----------



## santacore

Quote:


 a ringing endorsement. but is the mini version truly worth it, or does it feel to the early adopters around here like a compromise 
 

I don't feel like I compromised at all. The mini version does exactly what I want it to do. Plus, my interface (Sonicweld Diverter) can only do 24/96 so I'm good.

 The EQ on the full version is very limited and in my opinion not worth it. I understand there will be some nice features in future releases, but even those don't interest me much at this point.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iamoneagain* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This latest update is supposed to improve the sound over the last one. I can't really tell the difference but I guess you have to do a back and forth to hear it. In some of the other forums people were complaining that previous versions sounded better than 1.1, so I guess that's what was addressed._

 

How can they improve the sound quality from update to update, yet have been claiming it outputs a bit perfect signal? This doesn't make any sense to me. The only other thing I can think is maybe they are doing something to the word clock, but either way this reinforces what I said that the program alters the audio in some way.


----------



## paaj

The only thing I see them claim is better sound processing for volume/EQ (at least in the product description). Nothing on the website suggests that the bit-perfect signal would be better than the standard CoreAudio output. I'm highly skeptical of any differences in the bit-perfect output.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paaj* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only thing I see them claim is better sound processing for volume/EQ (at least in the product description). Nothing on the website suggests that the bit-perfect signal would be better than the standard CoreAudio output. I'm highly skeptical of any differences in the bit-perfect output._

 

It's good to skeptical but they do offer a free demo. You can see if you hear the differences yourself. I believe it's been proven to still be bit-perfect. So how are the differences explained, I haven't seen a good answer yet.


----------



## santacore

I think the differences are due to the different algorithms used to handle the audio. They seem to be constantly tweaking to get the best possible sound.


----------



## leveller1642

Just a few questions;

 What are the terms of the licence in relation to major updates? Is it perpetual?

 What are the chances of Apple buying Sonic Stage? EDIT- or at least the subsidiary responsible for Amarra, Sonic Studio? 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Amarra FAQ* 
_• Gapless playback
 - There is a small gap between songs on playback. 
 Version 1.2 introduces Playlist support for gapless playback._

 

Gapless playback with Amarra requires the use of playlists?


----------



## Silenced

They should integrate Dolby Headphone or Smyth in it somehow...


----------



## dallan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leveller1642* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just a few questions;

 What are the terms of the licence in relation to major updates? Is it perpetual?

 What are the chances of Apple buying Sonic Stage? EDIT- or at least the subsidiary responsible for Amarra, Sonic Studio? 



 Gapless playback with Amarra requires the use of playlists?_

 

They told me 3 years for software updates/upgrades but they are very lax and have not enforced that in the past. Kind of told me don't worry about it we will let you upgrade software as it comes in as you wish but according to the rules in writing it is the three years if they ever wish to enforce it i guess.


----------



## endless402

so consensus is that amarra mini is better than a properly setup foobar? wondering if i should jump in on the sale


----------



## dallan

I switched from foobar but do you have a mac, Amarra doesn't work on pc's and foobar doesn't work on macs from what i know(very little). So my comparisons are only from two different computers.


----------



## endless402

i've got both but my music system is on PC


----------



## dallan

Not for long, huh.


----------



## iamoneagain

Just to let you know Amarra Mini 2.0 just came out.  It's a free upgrade.  That added a few new features like preset eq, dither volume control, play flac directly from a folder.  It also seems more stable than last release.  I haven't made any sound comparisons.  I delete previous copy and don't plan to go back just to compare.
   
  They also release a Jr version for $79.  It only does 44.1K and has no playlist feature as far as I can tell.  It's supposed to sound the same as other versions.  The full Amarra 2.0 won't be coming out until July 15th.
   
  http://www.amarraaudio.com/


----------



## Ridleyguy

Amarra Mini 2.0 also plays MP3s.


----------



## dallan

Who plays MP3s though.


----------



## Ridleyguy

This product seems to have been all but forgotten on Head-Fi. Likely explanation - no one seems to be able to explain precisely what it does. While I bought it, and consider it to noticeably improve the sound of my system, I can understand why people are more reluctant to spend money on software rather than on tangible products - DACs, headphones and amplifiers. I find some irony in this, however, as how many of us can open up those nice metal boxes and explain what is in them?


----------



## dallan

I always use my Amarra Mini, it is a key component in my audio system.  I will not listen to computer audio without it unless a stream of a video that i have absolutely no choice.  In that case I feed it thru the speakers.  Before my Amarra program I had a problem with fatigue.  About a month back I started getting fatigue and got a headache while listening and at one point realized that the Amarra had gotten turned off.


----------



## santacore

I'm with Dallan, I don't want to go back to straight iTunes, it's just not the same. Amarra sounds fantastic, and the auto hardware sample rate management is a feature I can't live without. Plus, the price is much lower now, which should be a draw for newcomers.


----------



## AVU

Quote:


philski said:


> is it worth the $1,495 price tag?!


 

 I have not heard it myself, but my gut says "absolutely not." 
   
  I do, however, highly recommend this alternative, which I downloaded on a free trial basis and became instantly hooked.  It's gorgeous.  Supposedly near same SQ, with some better features, and most importantly, 1/10 the price:


----------



## Currawong

Pure Music has more features, but IMO Amarra (Mini) sounds better to me.


----------



## AVU

there's even an amara junior, for $79!
   
  When I get my new sparrow, I'll try them.   I think you can actually A/B Pure Music and Amarra for free by just downloading their limited trials.  I'd be curious for a bunch of people with different gear to try to tell what the sonic differences are between 

 Amarra Junior $79
  Pure Music $129
  Amarra Mini $295
  Amarra 2.0  $695 (new reduced price!)


----------



## Bones13

I went with Pure Music.  The copy protection scheme on Amarra is too onerous for me.


----------



## Currawong

AVU: You probably wouldn't benefit at all with just a Sparrow.


----------



## monsieurguzel

I've been using Pure Music for a while now and lately I'm kind of questioning the value of even using it in my setup.  While it does tend to clean up the bass a little and make it slightly more "analogue" than itunes on my mac....already consists of a WA5 and LCD2 which is already dark(ish) and full bodied.  Adding Pure Music makes it all a little more bassy but not necessarily a "better" sound than straight itunes.  I doubt that many can really hear that much difference to warrant a $700 pricetag of Amarra.  You can accomplish very similar effects by tweaking the EQ ever so slightly


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





currawong said:


> AVU: You probably wouldn't benefit at all with just a Sparrow.


 

 well right.  I'm certainly not saying there's not a difference.
  I'd get better than a $200 amp and dac before spending $700 on software!


----------



## santacore

I bought the mini version of Amarra and feel it's well worth the money. The sound difference was like getting a new dac or new source. Plus, having auto sample rate switching is a huge deal for me since my collections varies from 44.1k to 96k.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





santacore said:


> I bought the mini version of Amarra and feel it's well worth the money. The sound difference was like getting a new dac or new source. Plus, having auto sample rate switching is a huge deal for me since my collections varies from 44.1k to 96k.


 

 It is getting a new source.


----------



## dallan

Well for the moment i can eat my words.  Amarra has gone all Mickey Mouse on me.  This has happened a few times in the past and reopening it has worked, or at worst restarting my computer.  That is not working now.  When i turn on Amarra mini or go back and forth to itunes, it plays fast and voices are high pitched like sped up.  Any one have ideas, i have already tried downloading the current version and restarted my computer several times.....anyone??
   
   
   
  Edit, wait it works okay with 24 bit????
   
  And now its fine???? freaky.  It was set on 16 bit before too, guess it's a bit fickle.


----------



## dallan

It speeds up occasionally (chipmunks voice) with regular recordings and even restarting the computer won't fix it.  The only thing that fixes it is opening up a 24 bit file and playing it and then reopening the 16 bit???? Anyone know why.


----------



## Budley007

Quote: 





ridleyguy said:


> This product seems to have been all but forgotten on Head-Fi. Likely explanation - no one seems to be able to explain precisely what it does. While I bought it, and consider it to noticeably improve the sound of my system, I can understand why people are more reluctant to spend money on software rather than on tangible products - DACs, headphones and amplifiers. I find some irony in this, however, as how many of us can open up those nice metal boxes and explain what is in them?


 

 You may be correct, but I'd wager it's because this software is Mac only.  Like it or not, there's a significant number of us Windows users that are "culturally" and financially chained to our hardware/software investments.  I wish I could afford both.


----------



## dallan

When it came time to get a new computer, or actually when i was getting close i made the switch to mac.  I was a long time PC user and the Amarra software was a contributing factor since a lot/most of my music is computer based.  Much better sound and it was one of the many things i did to fight the fatigue i was getting with computer audio.  I did Amarra with a the Diverter as a usb->s/pdif converter and those combined fixed all issues.


----------



## dallan

Well, the problem of the speed up seems to be related to my Digital Link dac.  They are looking into it but for now it only happens about every week or two and is fixed by opening a 24 bit file then going back to the regular file.  Probably be a patch later but not much of a problem, worth it for the SQ.  I also went ahead and did what i have been wanting to do for the last year, upgraded to the full version, what an extravagance.  Very happy with Amarra, a cornerstone of my system.


----------



## ninjikiran

I think software will outpace hardware, considering the type of processing power on your typical PC is miles ahead the kind of performance you can get out of chips in even the most high end DAC's.  With software algorithms becoming increasingly complicated if it can do what is normally done in hardware better than any other solution it might very well be worth the price for some.
   
  If it were a simple music player/library app given the vast amount of free apps around it would be worthless.  Personally I don't believe in audio players as transports for audio to have differences in sound, it makes no logical sense.  But say someone released a plugin for FooBar or Winamp or xxHighend which rivaled hardware functionality or even bettered it to the point of being perfect than your paying for thought out code and not the jewelry of a high end component.
   
  If anything I feel no piece of equipment(excluding headphones) should have their own sound to them.  Given you can give music your own unique sound signature through software even more efficiently and fine tuned. 
   
   
  Now lets assume the claims made are true, is it worth $1500?  Perhaps to someone with tons of cash but it probably is a tad exploitative.  But then again most of the high end audio industry are either exploitative or highly inefficient(which to some degree that is the fault of mentality).  Will they be the first? I highly doubt it.  I am going to bet there will be competition within the years.  Cheaper cost wise, but holding the same kind of power.  Personally I wouldn't pay that much money for a piece of software.
   
   
  Just my 2 cents, I have no real opinion on the product and am just basing this on some first page posts.  My gut feeling is the same as most people but keeping an open mind is important~ 
   
  As for it being Mac only, I am going to get a little dirty and under handed here and say.  Mac users are willing to spend more for less when they buy their computers and generally fall victim to the Mac vs Windows arguments which make Mac OS out to be some kind of god.  They are still good computers so don't get me wrong,  As such Mac users generally have a higher bracket of income and are less inclined to pirate software.  Thus it would only be more logical to release software on a system which you will probably see greater return and less chance of piracy from a business perspective.  You can say that there are more Windows users in the world but according to head-fi in most of the higher end threads people are connecting their devices to a Mac of some kind.


----------



## googleborg

I guess the high price was so they could make some money on it before it was cracked, which it has been btw.


----------



## dallan

Price is way lower than originally for Amarra and mini.  I actually was a PC owner and got a mac when i got the most recent computer and Amarra was one of the main reasons i did.  So I wasn't a Mac person.  Guess now i sort of am......


----------



## Currawong

Sometimes Amarra doesn't switch sampling rates and so you get music sounding as if the playback speed is wrong.  I've filed so many bugs with them it's not funny.  While they have been fixing them, I really don't understand what is going on with their coders, as the interface looks terrible, when all it needs is for the designers to use Interface Builder to make it.


----------



## dallan

I had that problem and it is a the dac that is changing the sample rate it seems.  At least i had it with the mini, when switching to the internal speakers it is fine.  So they are trying to get together with PSaudio to get a fix, in the mean time i can fix it by switching to a 24 bit file and then back to what i want and it adjusts itself.  Try that for the time being and see if it works for you.  I think they are trying to use a variety of dacs that we have out here not just one and that may be the problem.


----------



## darknessproz

Paying a whole load of money to get a buggy software with crappy interface? Doesn't make sense to me.
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> Sometimes Amarra doesn't switch sampling rates and so you get music sounding as if the playback speed is wrong.  I've filed so many bugs with them it's not funny.  While they have been fixing them, I really don't understand what is going on with their coders, as the interface looks terrible, when all it needs is for the designers to use Interface Builder to make it.


----------



## dallan

Guess you have to hear it.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  It has been buggy on me about six or seven times in over a year and i use it every day.


----------



## omasciarotte

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> As for it being Mac only, I am going to get a little dirty and under handed here and say.  Mac users are willing to spend more for less when they buy their computers and generally fall victim to the Mac vs Windows arguments which make Mac OS out to be some kind of god.  They are still good computers so don't get me wrong,  As such Mac users generally have a higher bracket of income and are less inclined to pirate software.  Thus it would only be more logical to release software on a system which you will probably see greater return and less chance of piracy from a business perspective.  You can say that there are more Windows users in the world but according to head-fi in most of the higher end threads people are connecting their devices to a Mac of some kind.


 

 Hey *ninjikiran,*
   
  Amarra was written for Mac OS for several reasons…It's parent software, the Sonic System, was written for Sun’s (now Oracle) version of Unix, the OS originally written to run America’s phone system. The Sonic System was released in 1987. By then, Unix was 18 years old, very full featured and mature. In those days, PC were running either MS-DOS or a new OS called Windows. Since the Sonic System was created for audio creatives, not Lotus 1-2-3 or Solaris jockeys, the software was then ported to Mac OS…Nowadays, Mac OS also is Unix, now 41 years old, and Amarra is running on the dominant OS for audio professionals.


----------



## paaj

With the price of Amarra dropping with the lighter versions I wanted to hear for myself what it's about. So I found a demo version and I've been trying it for myself today. I was expecting to be able to switch between Amarra and iTunes gaplessly but there _is_ an annoying delay in the Amarra playback that let's you know when the signal is switched and which way it goes (skip = iTunes, repeat = Amarra). I was planning to close my eyes and press the Amarra button a random number of times as a blind test but this is not possible I guess...
   
  I started on the speaker setup:
  MacMini - optical - NorthStar M192mkI - Marantz PM7001ki (as preamp) - Hypex UcD400 dual mono (as poweramp) - Magnepan MMG 
  later changed the speakers to GS10.
   
  On this setup I don't hear a single difference, but maybe this is because of the standard optical output so I'll try my headphone setup later, which has the supported HiFace USB interface... so testing is to be continued.
   
  btw, all the _supported_ hardware is either USB or FireWire so if I do hear a difference later maybe it's because it uses a different driver for the external clock signal? I don't really find it in the marketing, only good things about the quality of processing (sample rate converting, EQ, higher sample rates etc).
   
   
  --
  I don't hear a difference on my Stax setup either. I've tried different albums, from Dire Straits to Infected Mushroom and have listened for differences in soundstage, details, bass extension etc. 
  Oh well, nothing is lost... at least I have had a good time with my setup, it has been a while


----------



## noris83

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Well, the problem of the speed up seems to be related to my Digital Link dac.  They are looking into it but for now it only happens about every week or two and is fixed by opening a 24 bit file then going back to the regular file.  Probably be a patch later but not much of a problem, worth it for the SQ.  I also went ahead and did what i have been wanting to do for the last year, upgraded to the full version, what an extravagance.  Very happy with Amarra, a cornerstone of my system.


 


  It speeds up cause of the audiomidi settings not getting changed. It happens to me too once in a while when switching from 24/96 back to regular. All you have to do is open audiomidi and change the format to 44.1 and 16bit and the problem is fixed instantly.


----------



## dallan

Hasn't happened since. I did upgrade to the full version though.


----------



## noris83

I think they fixed the problem with version 2.0. I only got around to upgrading from version 1 recently. Still great software regardless of a few of the imperfections, truly improved the quality of my computer audio experience.


----------



## dallan

My two current issues that I will ask them about is playing tracks in order when putting them on playlist instead of having to load them one at a time(flac gapless) and getting mono, don't know if that is an option but I need it on several recordings because sound goes back and forth, bad sound engineering.


----------



## iamoneagain

Got an email about 2.1 coming out in Nov. The new features they list are:
   
  Mini:
   
• RAM-cached for disk-free operation
• Amarra EQ for adjusting timbre
• Native support for FLAC, ALAC and
most compressed formats
• Seamless Playlist Docking
   
  Full:
   
• RAM-based Cache Playback
• Expanded Full 4-band Sonic EQ With 14 Filter Types
• Additional Psychoacoustic Dither Options Included
• Drag & Drop Playlist Creation From iTunes and Finder
• Seamless Playlist Docking


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I ordered Amarra MINI for my Macbook Pro at RMAF - here are my notes from the demo Oct 16th:  
   
   
 [size=medium] [size=small]_Listening to the Rolling Stones "Love in Vain" with and without Amarra was remarkable (loved the Focal speakers they used). It was a live recording and not off the "Let it Bleed" or "Get Yer Ya Ya's Out" album - in this recording they started to play, messed up and joked around, and then started again until completion. I want to find a copy of that particular performance. So, I need to email them back for that info._[/size][/size]

  [size=medium][size=small]_A couple of things that I noticed was that the guitar to the right of center sounded like it was coming more from the right speaker without Amarra turned on; but with Amarra it came from behind the wall and just to the inside of the right speaker, sounding much more transparent and on stage. The vocal that was to the left of center became more transparent and realistic, and higher off the floor more on stage. It went from sounding like a very good recording to sounding more realistic and live - the speakers totally disappeared with Amarra activated.

 I have no idea how much if any EQ they used, and of course their gear was much better than mine, but I'm hoping for similar improvements when using my Macbook Pro as transport in my system. I just don't expect overall performance to be on the same level without a bigger investment in my_ system.[/size][/size]
   
  Basically Amarra was a music player that was clearly better than OSX's Core Audio, which could explain why my PS Audio Bridge playing the same lossless files off my NAS sounds better than Macbook Pro > optical > PS Audio PWD.  I do find Core Audio to do a better job than any Windows machine I've tried, but Amarra is another step up from there.  I love how they use iTunes as the music server to deliver the files, but they use their software to decode the music.  This should be a nice upgrade when using my Macbook Pro portable with CEntrance DACport or Nuforce uDAC-2 DACs at 24/96, feeding my Westone ES5 or JH Audio 13Pro custom IEMs. I'll also use it to feed my Macbook Pro into my speaker system with one of these 24/96 portable DACs or my 24/96 HDP.


----------



## Currawong

The only problem now is, the free AyreWave, buggy as it is, completely toasts Amarra Mini in sound quality, at least on my system.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





currawong said:


> The only problem now is, the free AyreWave, buggy as it is, completely toasts Amarra Mini in sound quality, at least on my system.


 


  How is this a problem?  If it's better and free, can't beat that.  I'll have to give this a try.  If it really is better, always have the option of selling the iLok. I'd probably wait until Nov release to really compare.  I do like the simplicity of using iTunes with Amarra, so if AyreWave is a pain to use, I'd probably stick with Amarra.


----------



## noris83

Amarra's integration with iTunes is its best selling feature. Call me crazy but I really like having a play count and only iTunes does a nice job of keeping that synced between my iPods and computer. I tried PureMusic (demo) but found the integration to be pretty bad and I hated the stupid bar that shows up above iTunes.


----------



## iamoneagain

Just tried out AyreWave.  It's pretty close in sound quality.  Amarra might be a tab better in the mids but hard to tell.  Both are better than iTunes alone.  Now I wouldn't say AyreWave is a pain to use but Amarra is thoughtless since it's integrated.  I don't like having to cue up all my tracks into AyreWave.  Also don't like that the keyboard play buttons don't function with it.  And I'd imagine the iPhone remote app wouldn't work either.  Now if I didn't own Amarra already, I might settle for the functionality of AyreWave since the sound quality is really good.  For now, I'm happier with Amarra.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I'm happy with Amarra - now using iTunes without it active makes my music sound spacially "flatter", for lack of a better word.  
   
   
 [size=medium] I tried Amarra MINI with my Macbook and CEntrance DACport 24/96 USB DAC this morning and I love it.  Listening to Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" with my Westone ES5 custom in ear monitors I could clearly hear the improvement in space and transparency with switching MINI on and then off and back on.  The DACport is a fantastic 24/96 DAC/amp that can also be used to feed a bigger amp through the headphone output with no loss in quality; but it wont run at all with a USB hub ever since I upgraded to OSX 10.6 from 10.5 earlier this year.  It becomes totally silent for me if I use a hub.  Maybe it has something to do with bandwidth and timing issues.  So, I've also tried MINI with a Nuforce uDAC-2 24/96 USB DAC/amp that can work with my portable USB hub, and I heard the same improvements, although it is a much less costly DAC. [/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] Later I will try plugging my Macbook Pro into my PS Audio Perfectwave DAC with 24/96 USB and see how that sounds, but I'm not done unpacking all my gear from CanJam @ RMAF due to multiple disabilities and being totally run down by the attending event.  Nacolepsy meds can only keep me going for so long before my body is over-extended and gives out.[/size]
 [size=medium]  [/size]
 [size=medium] I also noticed when watching the Mac Activity Monitor that MINI only uses about 5-6% of the processor cycles while music plays (whether activated or not).  And iTunes uses about 10% of the processor cycles at the same time.  But with iTunes, MINI, EyeTV, and Mac Mail loaded at the same time my 4Gb machine uses 3.83Gb of the 4Gb RAM.  So, it's a good thing I have 4Gb, although I heard NO skips or jumps when using the 2.4Gz Macbook with the extra programs loaded.  Since the Mac has been up and running for days without being rebooted, just for fun I'll reboot soon and only run only MINI/iTunes and see how much processor and RAM they use alone vs not running. (out of curiosity)  I'm surfing Head-Fi right now with Amarra MINI and iTunes running, with EyeTV and Zinio Alert left loaded in the background, and again no skips or interrupted sound with 3.5Gb of 4Gb RAM being used.  It's also running LaCie network manager, Stuffit Magic menu, SoundSource, and Synergy iTunes controls in the background.[/size]


----------



## iamoneagain

Well after playing around with AyreWave more, it actually sounds better.  Seems to have bigger soundstage, more liquidy and better flow, and fuller sound.  So I think if I'm going to listen to a full album, I'll probably go with that player.  Hope they find a better way to intergrate it with iTunes.  I know there's a script to load songs you've highlighted in iTunes, but then if you have to go back to the player to start it, might as well just hit the iTunes button in the player itself.  So far I haven't had any bugs yet.  Hopefully Amarra will improve it's sound quality to match with it's Nov update.
   
  Can't tell if AyreWave is going to start charging when it's finished with it's Beta release but at least this let's you really try it out.


----------



## AVU

Tried [AyreWave].  Doesn't sound as good to me as PureMusic.  Not as full or rich.  Plus it's not integrated with itunes, so there's really no comparison.
   
  EDIT- sorry, this wasn't ayrewave - it was late.  I tried some other large music player/editor that was largely designed for sound editing, not playback. I thought it sounded horrible.  This was not AyreWave, which I tried later, and as I write below, is quite incredible.  Not as good as the full Amarra 2.1, but as a free alternative, can't be beat!


----------



## iamoneagain

I'm back to Amarra.  Needed the integration since I like to use the iPhone Remote app.  Also realized I like the cleaner mids Amarra delivers especially when listening songs with heavy electric guitar.  Now just waiting for that Nov update.


----------



## CVG

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> Well after playing around with AyreWave more, it actually sounds better.  Seems to have bigger soundstage, more liquidy and better flow, and fuller sound.  So I think if I'm going to listen to a full album, I'll probably go with that player.  Hope they find a better way to intergrate it with iTunes.  I know there's a script to load songs you've highlighted in iTunes, but then if you have to go back to the player to start it, might as well just hit the iTunes button in the player itself.  So far I haven't had any bugs yet.  Hopefully Amarra will improve it's sound quality to match with it's Nov update.
> 
> Can't tell if AyreWave is going to start charging when it's finished with it's Beta release but at least this let's you really try it out.


 
   
  First, AyreWave is designed to be a stand alone player application.  There's already more than one very well done app that's designed for close integration with iTunes.  Of course, iTunes is as close as it gets.
   
  Second, the AppleScript you're referring to grabs the selected tracks from iTunes, launches AyreWave, loads the tracks into the AyreWave play queue, and starts playing tracks from the beginning of the queue.  If AyreWave is already running, the tracks are just added to the end of the queue and AyreWave keeps playing whatever it was playing.  If you prefer to use iTunes as the database front end for playback with AyreWave, this approach works pretty well.  It also may be even more convenient to uncheck Playback Options: Remember between launches in the AyreWave Preferences so that each session begins fresh with your selections in iTunes.
   
  AyreWave has a pretty good AppleScript dictionary, so you can probably customize almost any interaction with iTunes that you like, or even write your own interface if you're ambitious.


----------



## iamoneagain

Well, Amarra 2.1 finally came out today.  I'll have to wait until tonight to try it out. Heard the big difference is using the Cache feature, which AyreWave already had.  I just upgraded to 8gb, so I shouldn't have an memory limitations.
   
  For the past few weeks I actually went back to using AyreWave.  It seemed to give a wider, more precise soundstage and had better overall texture.  I wasn't a fan of using the separate player, so I'm hoping Amarra's sound is now on par.  After extended listening, AyreWave's sound just seem right in my system.
   
http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/


----------



## AVU

I'm not sure where 2.1 is.  I got the email too, but there's no update on their website.
   
  I went back to AyreWave to check it after reading this.  It's better than I remembered - I actually prefer it to Play or Pure Music and maybe even the Amarra Mini.  I don't, however, think it has the authority of the full Amarra, which I prefer above all.  But damn close - and for a FREE program - that's incredible.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





avu said:


> I'm not sure where 2.1 is.  I got the email too, but there's no update on their website.
> 
> I went back to AyreWave to check it after reading this.  It's better than I remembered - I actually prefer it to Play or Pure Music and maybe even the Amarra Mini.  I don't, however, think it has the authority of the full Amarra, which I prefer above all.  But damn close - and for a FREE program - that's incredible.


 


  Did you refresh your browser.  The whole Amarra website is new.  
   
  So with what little testing I've done, the Cache mode brings the AyreWave improvements to Amarra while keeping Amarra's slightly cleaner sound.  It seems Cache mode improves soundstage placement and general pace and rhythm.  The few issues I have is you have to turn on Cache mode on each time you reopen.  Should just be a preference to check in addition to the button.  Also if you try to pause and resume, it doesn't work. You have to select another track to start up again.  Would also like them to add a Hog mode so no other system sounds come through.  I'll have to do more testing but it's nice to have iTunes front end back to play music.  
   
  The Cache mode is noticeable in my system because while I was testing, I was sure AyreWave sounded better and Amarra was a little dryer sounding.  I then noticed Cache mode was off.  Once back on, I was enjoying Amarra just as much.  Gives more organic sound and better retrieval of background effects.
   
  Oh, AyreWave is not really free.  It's a free beta that will expire at the end of the year.  They may release another beta to expire sometime next year.  But at some point they plan to charge for the final release.  I would have said it was worth it if Amarra didn't improve.


----------



## Currawong

The Amarra update saved me from selling my iLok and giving up.  The software has been so buggy for me, despite numerous emails to the developers.  It doesn't play the first 4-8 seconds of tracks unless I now use its playlist and cache. If I don't quit it in between use, attempting to use it after a few hours results in clicks, pops and drop-outs.  Maybe I need a dedicated machine to run it rather than use my main computer, but still, how the hell does a company spend so long developing software that has a gross non-native interface and such glaring bugs?


----------



## iamoneagain

Yeah, I'm shocked by the bugs too .  The other weird thing is I think the way the cache mode with the playlist works, is it tries to load the whole list (up to amount of song and memory set in preference).  Not sure why it can't load one and then preload another as first one is ending.  Pretty sure that how Ayrewave works.  And Ayrewave has perfect gapless playback.  I haven't tested Amarra's updated gapless playlist playback yet but used to have ever so slight gap.  I know just playing songs directly through iTunes has a bigger gap because it stops and loads the cache at the end of every song.  Don't understand why they don't use preload.  Biggest complaint is I can't get a song to play again once it's stopped.  Have to start it back up from beginning.  Seems they had a pre-release of this since Oct and this is the best they can come up and it's late being delivered.  I'd probably stick with Ayrewave is I didn't already own Amarra.
   
  On the positive side, I can use iTunes directly to start a song. I can also use the iPhone remote again.  And the biggest plus is I'm pretty sure Amarra now sounds better the Ayrewave when using cache mode. I guess the speed of the memory is the big difference.  Could be why people said they heard improvements with solid state drives.  I'll have to test Ayrewave with memory mode turned off to see if hear a difference there.  I'd assume so.


----------



## AVU

I must be an idiot, but I just can't find the software.  I'm at the site and it has the following.  Can you post the link for 2.1?
   
  - sorry found it


----------



## AVU

Sorry - mistaken post.  Finally found the new Amarra website.


----------



## dallan

I can stop and start it anywhere, midsong is no problem, but I haven't upgraded to new software yet...maybe I shouldn't in that I have none of the glitches that u guys seem to have.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I can stop and start it anywhere, midsong is no problem, but I haven't upgraded to new software yet...maybe I shouldn't in that I have none of the glitches that u guys seem to have.


 
   
  I never had this problem before this update.  Might try to reinstall or ask them if know issue. 
   
  But as far as sound goes, you'd really like update once you enable cache mode. Some may think it's subtle but really makes the flow of music the most natural I've heard in my system.  Just gives you that "now this is how music should sound".  I guess I would say there's a more liquidity feel to it.  I know every setup is different, so improvements I hear might be different for someone else.
   
  Edit: Got a response the that no start is a known issue.  Not sure how this wasn't caught before release.  Other minor issue are the track names are sometimes not showing up in the player.  Sometimes is showing old track name.  I tried playlist feature and when forward to next track it doesn't automatically start playing, have to hit play.  After finish with playlist, I couldn't it start playing iTunes track again without restarting it.  Heard they are already working on a bug fix update, so that's good. Also nice to get quick response from them.  Need to check site to see if we can submit bugs.  Really would like a bug-free version at some point.  
   
  Since Ayrewave is still in beta, could be the reason the are releasing updates so quickly.  They also have auto anonymous feedback.  Seems Amarra might need better beta testers if some of these bugs weren't noticed until released.  Some seem so obvious unless it only happens on select systems.


----------



## Anilan

I've been trying the demo for the last day and I've noticed that Amarra doesn't seem to handle long/non-English titles very well. Trying to play any of these tracks will make the light turn orange. However, if I rename the file info in iTunes to English (and with a short name) it works just fine. Also, if it was the same track but from the CD with the correct track names it works as well, but not when imported.


----------



## sterling1

I like the idea of FLAC files on iTunes being possible with Amarra, which would allow hi-res downloads from HDTracks to be importred direct to iTunes. But, I've got iTunes on my PC loaded with Windows 7. Will Amarra work on my computer, I'm interested in their mini version?


----------



## Currawong

Amarra only works in Mac OS X.


----------



## sterling1

Too bad, I think the Amarra folks will want to get their stuff to work on PC's too. After all, it's a huge market. I guess I'll keep on using MediaMonkey, as well as iTunes.


----------



## dallan

One reason I got a MAC this time was Amarra.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





sterling1 said:


> Too bad, I think the Amarra folks will want to get their stuff to work on PC's too. After all, it's a huge market. I guess I'll keep on using MediaMonkey, as well as iTunes.


 
   
  I'm pretty sure I read that they have no plans for the PC.  The current player is built on a sound engine they've been working on for over 20 years on the Mac platform.  Originally developed for professional studios.
   
  Saw in another forum they said to just email them with any bugs.  I sent off an email with my list.  For the most part, just playing tracks directly from iTunes is working.  Sometimes get weird glitch at beginning of track where it plays for a split second and then really starts track. Haven't done much other testing.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, I suppose I may not update until they have a 2.11 release for bug fixes - I'm happy with 2.01 MINI right now on my Macbook Pro.


----------



## shamu144

A few months back, I got tired of waiting for a never ending stable release of Amarra, and almost gave up on software players... That untill I tried Pure Music, which works like a charm for me (despite some very minor bugs), integrates seamlessly with iTunes and offer a fantastic sound (full, rich, liquid, flowing, excellent sounsdtage and imaging). I just don't understand why people are still sticking with Amarra, despite all the major bugs reported and instability. It just takes you out of enjoying the music. At least, this has been my experience with the Amarra mini demo, and it doesn't seem things have changed a lot...


----------



## sterling1

Is there anything out there like Amarra which will work with iTunes loaded on a PC? All I want to do is get FLAC files on board. I don't want to buy a Mac, since I'm pleased with my new Dell Inspiron 14.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





shamu144 said:


> A few months back, I got tired of waiting for a never ending stable release of Amarra, and almost gave up on software players... That until I tried Pure Music, which works like a charm for me (despite some very minor bugs), integrates seamlessly with iTunes and offer a fantastic sound (full, rich, liquid, flowing, excellent sounsdtage and imaging). I just don't understand why people are still sticking with Amarra, despite all the major bugs reported and instability. It just takes you out of enjoying the music. At least, this has been my experience with the Amarra mini demo, and it doesn't seem things have changed a lot...


 


  For whatever reason, I haven't liked the sound of Pure Music.  I've tried it several times.  Ayrewave was the only other player I liked better than Amarra but didn't have seamless integration.  Now I think Amarra's sound is at least on par.  Might try Pure Music again because isn't there a memory mode too?
   
  I do keep finding more and more bugs with Amarra.  It really is surprising how buggy this thing is.  If I could get Pure Music to sound just as good, I'd jump ship.  I just don't see Amarra ever ironing out all these bugs unless they hire some new programmers.  Seems some of same bugs continue from release to release.  With AyreWave, bugs are being fixed within weeks and it's only one guy working on it.


----------



## dallan

I guess I am lucky, I didn't upgrade this time to the new version but I have no bugs that I see. I have gapless if I don't us itunes, and the only time I have any bug is maybe once or twice a month, if I let it sit for a while or sleep the computer it may need to be closed and restarted but that's it.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I guess I am lucky, I didn't upgrade this time to the new version but I have no bugs that I see. I have gapless if I don't us itunes, and the only time I have any bug is maybe once or twice a month, if I let it sit for a while or sleep the computer it may need to be closed and restarted but that's it.


 


  Still think you need to give the upgrade a try just for cache mode.  Just creates a liquidity smooth sound.  This is about the only thing I've been testing and won't use it without this setting.  You can always go back to old version but curious if other's are as impressed with cache mode as I am. 
   
  For Ayrewave, I've always had memory mode enabled, so I don't know how it sounds without.  And Pure Music I've never tried with it on, so that could be why I wasn't impressed.  I guess if these players are all about improving timing, memory mode improves this enough where it's audibly noticeable.


----------



## paaj

You can transcode the FLAC files to ALAC (Apple Lossless) without quality loss. Many programs can do this. Then you can import them into iTunes.


----------



## sterling1

Right now, I'm just converting FLAC to wav 24/96 for iTunes, and I also burn to DVD data disc. Perhaps, one day I'll get a BD universal player which will play these DVD-Audio discs, too.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





sterling1 said:


> Right now, I'm just converting FLAC to wav 24/96 for iTunes, and I also burn to DVD data disc. Perhaps, one day I'll get a BD universal player which will play these DVD-Audio discs, too.


 


   Are the FLAC 24/96? Not sure the advantage if not.  Also, I remember WAV files not storing meta data vs AIFF does if really want to use uncompressed formats. Don't really see the problem with ALAC, but who knows.


----------



## iamoneagain

Tried Pure Music with memory mode and doesn't compete with Amarra in my opinion.  It's very clean sounding but still sounds digital.  Amarra is organic sounding with more texture and layers. Reminds me of the effect of upgrading to a better DAC.  
   
  The good thing is Amarra is addressing user feedback and should have a bug fix out very shortly.  I can live with the current built and I'm actually glad they put it out even with the bugs.  They should have probably released it as a user beta though.  Kind of looks bad from a finished product standpoint.


----------



## AVU

Currawong, actually even with the Sparrow A 8741, Amarra 2.1 sounds much better than Pure Music and Amarra Mini, which both sound better than Amarra Junior, at least on my JH13s.


----------



## iamoneagain

Well Amarra 2.1.1 just came out and so far so good.  I haven't experienced any bugs yet.  I can pause and start, no stuttering, albums with weird characters play.  I still need to test the playlist features and direct load from finder but probably won't use them too much anyway.  Well playlist can be used for gapless albums, so that's important.


----------



## spahn_ranch

At sea 3 months and been playing amarra mini, happliy so since vinyl is slightly impractical atm. Rough comparison from memory, the 2.1.1 update with cache enabled, on most accounts beats the mid-level vinyl setp I had; whereas the 2.0 with spinning disk was really nice - for digital - but not quite there. More like halfway between straight itunes and the vinyl. I knew some people have sworn by SSD with amarra, and maybe cache mode entails the great equalizer for us still spinning the disk. A quite appreciable gain in depth, space, openness, texture; individual and unique body to each note and that analogue non mechanical flow and natural undeniable authority to the beat. x2 on liquid.
   
  It's the first software of any kind that I've spent used RS1 kind of money on and while quite worth 400€ for the 1.x-2.0, the ROI with 2.1.1./cache is superlicious. /IMO


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Still haven't upgraded.  I don't really know how i guess.  Last time i tried i needed to call and get assistance because it didn't take.  Seems like it is a complicated process or i have old versions in there and then i end up going with out it for a while, which sucks.  If i knew i could just go ahead and do it with out an issue i would.


----------



## spahn_ranch

Just four clicks and you're set up to launch and use the updated version: applications >> amarra >> extras >> delete amarra preferences.
   
  Re cache, I definitely use it without memory mode (cache and playlist) which in my opinion is the big news with 2.1. I'm currently running the Decibel (former AyreWave) beta most of the time though, which also plays memory mode. That's not due to Amarra's lingering bugs but because of Decibel 1.0b's sound which I find even more appealing. A tight presentation with a more liquid midrange and smoother, sweeter highs.


----------



## spahn_ranch

OK,
   
  <vent mode>
   
  I've had it with this bugware.
   
  Been using Decibel for a while and now what. Amarra won't play, work work. I have to force quit it. Giving the retailer Audio Concept a feedback call tomorrow. Few softwares have I payed this kind of money for or more. On the Mac, none has giving me any trouble except this one. I have had it with Sonic Studios.
   
  Had.
   
  It.
   
  </vent>


----------



## iamoneagain

Yeah, Amarra can be frustrating.  Sometimes it works with no issues but usually I'll get a sound delay glitch or the last few seconds of the tracks will loop.  Sonic Studios promises another update mid-February to fix these problems.  I'm not holding my breathe.  I really like Decibel except for the fact it is not fully intergrated with iTunes.  The script you can download does make things pretty easy, it's just you can't use the iPhone remote app with it.  I also think Amarra sounds just a touch better.  It's close enough that I could switch if there's more intergration. 
   
  Pure Music really works well as far as intergration but their sound doesn't seem as organic in my system.  Both Decibel and Amarra have this non-fatiguing sound.  Pure Music is more dynamic but I don't think it's as natural.


----------



## santacore

I've been using 2.1 since it first came out. It sounds fantastic, but is definitely buggy. I don't know if it's my system or not, but Amarra hasn't run smoothly for 6 months. Each version has had it's own quirks. If this software didn't sound so good, and work so well with iTunes, I would have given up by now.  Hopefully the alleged update this month will get things back on track.


----------



## AVU

Really like Decibel - hasn't hit a bug yet, and seems a lot less demanding on my system than Amarra.  Still, I find Amarra's SQ to be superior by a hair most of the time, esp bc of the EQ.  (Amarra's the only EQ I've ever used, bc it seems so transparent.) I use Amarra 2.1 in memory mode with the playlist run from an external firewire 800 drive - ie, everything exactly like they tell you to do - AND STILL it has bugs galore.  If I so much as surf the web, it hiccups.  If I open another application it hiccups.  And it often loops the ends of tracks in the most annoying way.  So, I keep going back to Decibel despite everything else.


----------



## Currawong

I've given up on Amarra. Buggy, despite numerous emails to support. They still are using some weird codebase with a non-standard interface.  I gather it came from some music software for UNIX from way back.  That Steven Booth could pull something from scratch that blows Amarra away sonically and give it away for free really says it all -- I don't know what the hell SonicStudio are doing going on as they are with Amarra. Last I looked, Pure Music being full-featured for a fraction of the price and Decibel sounding better and being considerably less buggy for free has really sent them into a panic.


----------



## spahn_ranch

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Decibel sounding better


 
   
  +1. Honestly. No sour grapes on account of vapour money; simply my preferences.


----------



## iamoneagain

By the way, Decibel is not really free.  It is still in Beta and will eventually be released as a paid program.  It's set to expire at some point.  Originally expired on 1/1/11 but then release another beta to test.  So unless something changed when the named changed, it was always meant to be paid software.
   
  Yeah, I find Amarra a hair better but could be just as happy with Decibel's sound.  I was only using Amarra because of it's integration with iTunes but it's so buggy, it's usefulness is limited.  It sounds better in playlist mode but that breaks the seamless integration. And even in playlist mode it now how this weird looping effect at the end of certain tracks.  It also has a millisecond gap for gapless albums.
   
  I've tried to switch to Pure Music because of it's integration and bug free operation but over time, it's missing something in it's sound. So I guess I could just switch to Decibel since it's actually easier to use than Amarra (when using in playlist). I'm still holding out hope for Amarra's next update.  If there are still issues, I'll just use Decibel.  Might still hang on to the iLok in case they ever get their act together.


----------



## dallan

avu said:


> Really like Decibel - hasn't hit a bug yet, and seems a lot less demanding on my system than Amarra.  Still, I find Amarra's SQ to be superior by a hair most of the time, esp bc of the EQ.  (Amarra's the only EQ I've ever used, bc it seems so transparent.) I use Amarra 2.1 in memory mode with the playlist run from an external firewire 800 drive - ie, everything exactly like they tell you to do - AND STILL it has bugs galore.  If I so much as surf the web, it hiccups.  If I open another application it hiccups.  And it often loops the ends of tracks in the most annoying way.  So, I keep going back to Decibel despite everything else.


Ii

I have that hiccup problem with one of my dacs bit the other two never have that problem. Amarra seems to be very dac specific and I am aware of instances that problems have been solved by changing dacs although that is not always reasonable. I can tell u the xdax with optical is a problem and that other one Santicore had was a problem. I have not upgraded my software since sept/oct and am basically bug free. Occasionally if I let it sit all day I have to close and reppen it though. I can't see using my computer for music without it actually.


----------



## omasciarotte

Dallan said: 





> Amarra seems to be very dac specific and I am aware of instances that problems have been solved by changing dacs although that is not always reasonable


 
   
Nor should it be. If anyone’s having DAC issues, first thing to check is System Profiler > Hardware > USB to see on what bus your DAC is hanging. It should be on its own "USB High-Speed Bus." Put all the HUI stuff, like keyboards and mice, along with other slow stuff, on their own “USB Bus.”
   
If problems persist, give Sonic Studio a shout as they'd really like to know if a particular make of DAC is misbehaving.


----------



## dallan

Sure wish i could figure out how to download the new version.  I am still on 2.0.  I emailed last week with no response, just tried again.  You used to be able to download new versions but now all that is there is to buy or demo sending an email.  But i sent one to the tech and no go...........
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   Expensive software, you would think they would just let you download the new version if you have an ilok.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Sure wish i could figure out how to download the new version.  I am still on 2.0.  I emailed last week with no response, just tried again.  You used to be able to download new versions but now all that is there is to buy or demo sending an email.  But i sent one to the tech and no go...........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  You should be able to just download from their site and then use your iLok number on the sign in screen.  After you get in once, you don't have to sign in again.  I had so much trouble getting past this screen but it there was a bug in their first release.  Should work now.  Think you be really happy with the sound.  Beats all the others I've tried.
   
  Pretty satisfied with current version.  There are still some bugs but much more stable.  No more stuttering.  I still get that weird looping bug on some stuff but if I re-encode using XLD, seems to fix it.  Still wish they'd fix this from their end.  I've now seen others complain about this as well.
   
  http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarrasupport.html#DOWNLOAD
   
  Here's how to activate:
   
  http://www.sonicstudio.com/pdf/amarra/AuthGeneric.pdf


----------



## dallan

Yeah i got it.  Didn't know i had to request the demo, then it would let me put in my serial number that was kind of a weird one that they had problems with because it was a demo ilok key.  But it worked and my G-D!  It is way improved.  I am blown away at the sound quality improvement from 2.0.  This is my first mac so sometimes i still fight with it so changing stuff around is the last thing i want to do usually.
   
  Thanks for the response.


----------



## iamoneagain

I just tried the download link and you're right, it takes you to a request page.  Not sure why.  But you're in luck.  I still have the links.  Not sure if you have the mini or full version so I'll post both.
   
  Full:
   
  http://www.sonicstudio.com/releases/Amarra_211_Release_4286.zip
   
  Mini: 
   
  http://www.sonicstudio.com/releases/Amarra_MINI_211_Release_4286.zip


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Yeah i got it.  Didn't know i had to request the demo, then it would let me put in my serial number that was kind of a weird one that they had problems with because it was a demo ilok key.  But it worked and my G-D!  It is way improved.  I am blown away at the sound quality improvement from 2.0.  This is my first mac so sometimes i still fight with it so changing stuff around is the last thing i want to do usually.
> 
> Thanks for the response.


 
   
  For biggest improvement, enable the Cache button.  Then for best sound quality, use the the Playlist mode.  You can also change the amount of memory Amarra uses.


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

Why would they be in a panic? They have a profitable business in pro audio software. Amarra was simply an offshoot of an existing product, and the bugginess of it speaks to resources they poured into getting it right. I'd guess that most of what they sold, particularly early on when the price was so dear, was almost all margins. If it dies, and god knows it has every right to twitch away into an overdue sleep, will anyone get their money back? No. Didn't think so. Really, the only thing they have to lose from this is the ability to launch another credible consumer product.
   
  P


----------



## Curly21029

Quote: 





dallan said:


> ...But it worked and my G-D!  It is way improved.  I am blown away at the sound quality improvement from 2.0.


 

 Glad you're enjoying it.  I was also impressed by the sonic improvement of the new version.  I preferred Pure Music to the previous Amarra SQ as it sounded tighter with better clarity and detail.  I now prefer Amarra's sound by a surprisingly large degree.  Should be interesting to see if Channel D can close the gap with their next release.


----------



## dallan

It is almost like getting a new high end dac, the difference is that much.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





phelonious ponk said:


> Why would they be in a panic? They have a profitable business in pro audio software. Amarra was simply an offshoot of an existing product, and the bugginess of it speaks to resources they poured into getting it right. I'd guess that most of what they sold, particularly early on when the price was so dear, was almost all margins. If it dies, and god knows it has every right to twitch away into an overdue sleep, will anyone get their money back? No. Didn't think so. Really, the only thing they have to lose from this is the ability to launch another credible consumer product.
> 
> P


 







 Where did that come from.  Who wants their money back? Dies? Overdue sleep?  Confusing post, maybe i missed something.


----------



## omasciarotte

*iamoneagain *wrote: 





> …Sometimes it works with no issues but usually I'll get a sound delay glitch or the last few seconds of the tracks will loop.  Sonic Studios promises another update mid-February to fix these problems.


 


  Hey iamoneagain,
   
  Grab the 2.2.3 (4290) release in Support > Downloads. It may improve your issue…


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





omasciarotte said:


> Hey iamoneagain,
> 
> Grab the 2.2.3 (4290) release in Support > Downloads. It may improve your issue…


 
   
  Thanks, I'll give this a try and report back.
   
  Hey, I believe it's fixed it.  Seems really stable now.  
   
  They need to change the way you get a new file.  You used to be able to just download file.  Now they have that extra request page and makes you think it's only for a demo. Just a little confusing.


----------



## iamoneagain

Well after some more testing, I still have the looping bug.  So either it fixed some of the problems or I just picked the wrong tracks to test.  At least re-encoding with XLD fixes the problem.  Kind of pain since you don't know if the problem exists until you're at the end of a track.  Then need to stop listening and run XLD for the whole album. Not the most relaxing way to listen to an album. I wish I knew which albums were effected so I can just fix them all at once.  I'll see if I can find some pattern.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I've given up on Amarra. Buggy, despite numerous emails to support. They still are using some weird codebase with a non-standard interface.  I gather it came from some music software for UNIX from way back.  That Steven Booth could pull something from scratch that blows Amarra away sonically and give it away for free really says it all -- I don't know what the hell SonicStudio are doing going on as they are with Amarra. Last I looked, Pure Music being full-featured for a fraction of the price and Decibel sounding better and being considerably less buggy for free has really sent them into a panic.


 

 I was impressed with Decibel from the moment I installed it on my netbook (Linux Mint) and I havent had a single problem since. At the risk of enraging a few hipsters on this forum, Decibel 'just works'.


----------



## dallan

Amarra is for mac not netbooks, and Currawongs comments were back in early to mid February.  Very happy with the SQ on it, went a long way to solving my fatigue from computer based music.  Not enraged just happy, i actually converted to mac to get Amarra among other things.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Amarra is for mac not netbooks, and Currawongs comments were back in early to mid February.  Very happy with the SQ on it, went a long way to solving my fatigue from computer based music.  Not enraged just happy, i actually converted to mac to get Amarra among other things.


 
   
  Of course - silly me - Macs are the only computer for audiophile-quality music playback, right ? Excuse me while I set fire to my pathetic belongings.


----------



## dallan

I didn't say that, I said i changed to mac to use Amarra and you can't run it on other computers to my knowledge.  I never wrote anything about other computers but my older pc always gave me fatigue i will say that.


----------



## estreeter

I apologise - it was a knee-jerk reaction at the end of a crap day.


----------



## antberg

with 1500$ there are a lot of hi-end amplifier to buy in the market,than a audio software that merely play better than a well setup-ped foobar...
  come on....people really go nuts sometimes,or i have to assume some ear 1500$ a day while some else need to work a whole month to earn the same amount.


----------



## mtkversion

Some people have more dollars than sense.


----------



## adamlau

Using it. Love it. Definitely an improvement over iTunes without it.


----------



## dallan

I wouldn't use computer audio without it myself.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





antberg said:


> with 1500$ there are a lot of hi-end amplifier to buy in the market,than a audio software that merely play better than a well setup-ped foobar...
> come on....people really go nuts sometimes,or i have to assume some ear 1500$ a day while some else need to work a whole month to earn the same amount.


 


  $695. not $1500. , I actually got it on special during an upgrade push and got it for considerably less than that too.  Luck and timing.


----------



## MayaTlab

I've tried since yesterday a few softwares including Decibels, Fidelia, and Amarra, and I've got a few questions about the later, mostly related to its stupid quirks.
   
  The setup : 
  MacBook Air - Amarra (mostly in Cache + Playlist mode) - TTVJ Slim (cheap USB DAC, not asynchronous) - HD650.
  My entry-level Stax setup isn't available at the moment.
   
*1* - When using *for the first time* the space bar of the keyboard to stop the music *while iTunes is in the foreground (not Amarra)*, the music doesn't stop but reverts to the beginning of the track. If I then press for a *second time* the space bar, the music stops. It doesn't happen this way if : a) I use the space bar while Amarra is in the foreground, or b) I use the play / stop button of the keyboard. 
*2* - Amarra doesn't remember that I set iTunes to be the playlist manager. Every time I open the application, I have to tell it again and again that I want iTunes to manage the playlist.
*3* - When quitting and reopening in Playlist mode, the window doesn't remember where it used to be (and usually appears in a very inconvenient place, like half-masked by the screen border).
*Question* : have you experienced the same small quirks with your version ?
  PS : I've tried both Amarra and Mini, and they both (logically) produce the same issues.
   
*4* - Is it possible to make Amarra load less than 10 songs or 512 Mb of memory when the playlist is in automatic loading mode ? I'd like to try using my external hard drive on wireless and I don't want to wait for a century before a track plays. I only need Amarra to load the next song.
   
*5* - I've read that Amarra seems to interact with the hardware at a rather low level and interferes with Core Audio for example. Is there any risk of an incompatibility if I use an asynchronous USB DAC with its own drivers installed on the Mac ?


----------



## dallan

Has anyone downloaded the 2012 new software?
   
   
  Oh sorry i don't have answers to your questions.  I just use it on itunes and use the Amarra interface or i drag flac files to the playlist box and basically don't worry about it from there on.   But that is weird about the itunes issue as the playlist, my Amarra just opens itunes and uses it unless i open the playlist after it is open and choose to drag things there.


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Has anyone downloaded the 2012 new software?


 
  Nope, still on original 2.3. It sounds great and seems stable. Let me know if you try the new version.


----------



## dallan

I am always kind of iffy to download updates of things that work.  If it aint broke don't fix it sort of stuff.


----------



## AVU

agreed, amarra 2.3 sounds much better than Fidelia, Audirvana, Decibal, Play, and Pure Music, to say nothing of itunes.  It's also easier for me to switch sources than Pure, since I can usually switch between optical and usb without having to reboot.  I always use it in cached Playlist mode and don't open itunes unless it's necessary.  But it sounds fine using itunes as well, maybe just a hair worse.


----------



## Team

Quote: 





avu said:


> agreed, amarra 2.3 sounds much better than Fidelia, Audirvana, Decibal, Play, and Pure Music, to say nothing of itunes.


 

  
  For $695 you, too, can convince yourself that Amarra sounds better than any other music player app (and more importantly - that your ears can tell the difference). Of course, if Amarra sold for less than $50 like most of its competitors (i.e. Fidelia and Decibel), people might compare the programs objectively, rather than blindly following the premise that price = quality. Alas, that is not the case. Looking at the Press page of the Amarra website, I can't help but wonder how much of that $695 is spent on R&D to improve their software, and how much is spent on advertising and event sponsorships.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





team said:


> For $695 you, too, can convince yourself that Amarra sounds better than any other music player app (and more importantly - that your ears can tell the difference). Of course, if Amarra sold for less than $50 like most of its competitors (i.e. Fidelia and Decibel), people might compare the programs objectively, rather than blindly following the premise that price = quality. Alas, that is not the case. Looking at the Press page of the Amarra website, I can't help but wonder how much of that $695 is spent on R&D to improve their software, and how much is spent on advertising and event sponsorships.


 


   
  Looking at your equipment set up, Amarra would be a complete waste. Its appropriate you have that perspective.


----------



## Jaywalk3r

team said:


> For $695 you, too, can convince yourself that Amarra sounds better than any other music player app (and more importantly - that your ears can tell the difference). Of course, if Amarra sold for less than $50 like most of its competitors (i.e. Fidelia and Decibel), people might compare the programs objectively, rather than blindly following the premise that price = quality. Alas, that is not the case. Looking at the Press page of the Amarra website, I can't help but wonder how much of that $695 is spent on R&D to improve their software, and how much is spent on advertising and event sponsorships.




More Expensive Placebos Bring More Relief

There's no reason to believe the same concept would not apply to audiophiles.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





avu said:


> agreed, amarra 2.3 sounds much better than Fidelia, Audirvana, Decibal, Play, and Pure Music, to say nothing of itunes.  It's also easier for me to switch sources than Pure, since I can usually switch between optical and usb without having to reboot.  I always use it in cached Playlist mode and don't open itunes unless it's necessary.  But it sounds fine using itunes as well, maybe just a hair worse.


 

 x2! I have all of the other players on my Mac mini as well; using the MHDT USBridge with both Coax and Optical into my W4S box and E-MU USB Interface. In my view, Amarra is overpriced and out of step with today's Market. And does sound better in my system. Due to system changes, I asked and received two trials in six weeks for extended evaluations. That said, music is entertainment - how often do we spend premiums to entertain ourselves? How 'bout a Night out on the town? Vacation? Entertaining guests?





   
  I'd also add that the purchasing of some of these players and the additional steps taken (needed?) to reduce system overhead and/or isolate processes, has led me to pursue Linux with dedicated audio in mind.


----------



## KingStyles

So without trying it, you are saying the whole audio community has been doped....... that all these golden ears in both the speaker world and headphone world arent actually hearing anything .....

If the other players sounded as good as amarra, people would love to pay 2x to 12x less for it. The fact is that amarra has had a little better quality in sound, not in operation, that people that need that extra 1% are willing to pay for. $695 isnt a lot when the same people are dropping $5000 a pop on interconnects and power cords on there $100000 dollar speaker rigs. They see that $695 as a drop in the bucket cheap tweak that gets them a step closer to audio nirvana. Now in that perspective, it is the cheapest tweak they can do to there system and it makes to them a large improvment. Your theory does not apply.

Also, there is a free trial to test it and jr only cost $99. I guess that extra $50 can swing someones .......


----------



## Jaywalk3r

kingstyles said:


> So without trying it, you are saying the whole audio community has been doped....... that all these golden ears in both the speaker world and headphone world arent actually hearing anything .....




Golden eared audiophiles used to claim that Audion sounded better than SoundJam, only to find that there was no logical reason that the should any different from each other at all. Even golden ears are subject to the placebo effect.

Of course, I'm always willing to read studies utilizing scientifically valid comparisons performed by unbiased researchers who make the data available for peer review. Short of that, I see zero reason to reject the null hypothesis of placebo effect.


----------



## MayaTlab

Although no reason has yet to be advanced for Amarra possible improvements in sound quality (Core Audio ? More precisely please ?), I think there is indeed a difference which I dare to qualify as an improvement (subtle ? big ? I can't say, It might be subtle but be exactly what I was expecting as an improvement and therefore appear as bigger than it really is) over other softwares I've tried. And I still haven't bought Amarra (just trying it, as well as other softwares like Decibel, Fidelia, etc.), so I suppose there's no expense bias here. I'd still like to know why it may be an improvement and even the Mini version (which is basically all one needs for most uses) remains expensive.
   
  On the other hand I also don't know where their profits are going, because other than SQ everything else is properly rubbish with that software. Decibel and Fidelia seem much better coded. That's IMHO the main issue with Amarra : as soon as it losses its possible edge in SQ, it will loose customers by the bucket load.


----------



## KingStyles

While some people may be subject to placebo, usually in placebo arguments there is about an equal amount of people on both sides. It seems most people hear differences in all these itunes substitute players, even the ones that are priced the same. The few people that havent heard a difference usually have setups that would be questionable like a macbook using the headphone out or into a cheap dac and amp were the small changes are going to be covered up. At this point, if they bought amarra, it might be placebo effect. I am not saying that this all couldnt be placebo effect, I am saying that I dont find it that probable.


----------



## KingStyles

> On the other hand I also don't know where their profits are going, because other than SQ everything else is properly rubbish with that software. Decibel and Fidelia seem much better coded. That's IMHO the main issue with Amarra : as soon as it losses its possible edge in SQ, it will loose customers by the bucket load.




agreed


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> While some people may be subject to placebo, usually in placebo arguments there is about an equal amount of people on both sides. It seems most people hear differences in all these itunes substitute players, even the ones that are priced the same. The few people that havent heard a difference usually have setups that would be questionable like a macbook using the headphone out or into a cheap dac and amp were the small changes are going to be covered up. At this point, if they bought amarra, it might be placebo effect. I am not saying that this all couldnt be placebo effect, I am saying that I dont find it that probable.


 

 It may indeed be placebo, but on the other hand :
  1) I had no financial interest in Amarra, as I'm still on the fence about buying it. I'm lucky enough that I don't have to worry much about spending a certain amount of money, but I'd be much reassured if Amarra developers provided an explanation for its possible superiority. I'm even wondering if they actually know why their software may sound better.
  2) It's very easy to do blind tests with Amarra with the toggle button between iTunes / Amarra. Maybe I should ask a friend to help me doing so, but I'll probably wait for my new system to try that. When switching, it seemed quite easy to spot the differences, but nothing's better than a blind test to prove that.


----------



## Jaywalk3r

kingstyles said:


> usually in placebo arguments there is about an equal amount of people on both sides.




That wasn't the case with Audion and SoundJam. Audion was virtually always considered the better sounding player by those who perceived a difference. It's the power of suggestion.

Also, if the prices of the two possibilities are different, then the more expensive placebo will usually be perceived as more effective.


----------



## dallan

For me, even if it didn't sound better, it was worth it for my original Amarra mini purchased on sale because for the first time, i was cured of my fatigue issue that would rear it's ugly head after 30-45 minutes using my mac as a source with several different dac options.  I upgraded during a special offer time too, and don't regret it at all.


----------



## SpearRoom

Right!  I'm a new user of Amarra and I have to say its like hearing music for the first time all over again.  I've tried PureMusic which is only just slightly better than iTunes (and that's not so great to begin with), but as soon as I installed the trial version of Amarra - I was a convert!  Try it...


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





jaywalk3r said:


> if the prices of the two possibilities are different, then the more expensive placebo will usually be perceived as more effective.


 

 That's because of the psychological effect of correlation.  See, in most things in a capitalist society, more expensive = better.  Pick your favorite example.  There are always outliers, but generally, the exception proves the rule.


----------



## Jaywalk3r

mayatlab said:


> It may indeed be placebo, but on the other hand :
> 1) I had no financial interest in Amarra, as I'm still on the fence about buying it. I'm lucky enough that I don't have to worry much about spending a certain amount of money, but I'd be much reassured if Amarra developers provided an explanation for its possible superiority. I'm even wondering if they actually know why their software may sound better.
> 2) It's very easy to do blind tests with Amarra with the toggle button between iTunes / Amarra. Maybe I should ask a friend to help me doing so, but I'll probably wait for my new system to try that. When switching, it seemed quite easy to spot the differences, but nothing's better than a blind test to prove that.




After trying it, I readily acknowledge that there is a noticeable difference between iTunes' and Amarra's output. Ammara adds some sort of processing, which seems to include a delay or reverb effect. As a fan of a clean sound, I personally found Amarra's default output to be inferior to iTunes'. Others who like hearing their music played with such effects may prefer Amarra.

Sound aside, the application feels like a bad port, and is not very Mac-like.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





jaywalk3r said:


> After trying it, I readily acknowledge that there is a noticeable difference between iTunes' and Amarra's output. Ammara adds some sort of processing, which seems to include a delay or reverb effect. As a fan of a clean sound, I personally found Amarra's default output to be inferior to iTunes'. Others who like hearing their music played with such effects may prefer Amarra.
> Sound aside, the application feels like a bad port, and is not very Mac-like.


 

 Nobody knows what Amarra does or doesn't do with files. It's likely though that it doesn't add more processing than iTunes. The latter passes through Core Audio for example, and if your MIDI settings aren't properly configured it may upsample or downsample files on the fly. That's one thing Amarra doesn't do. Another argument could be that it's based on pro audio softwares - I doubt any pro would like to mix with effects. I personally don't think Amarra adds any delay or reverb, I just find that it may be easier to identify those cues from the recording as it seems to me a bit more detailed than iTunes.


----------



## Jaywalk3r

mayatlab said:


> Nobody knows what Amarra does or doesn't do with files. It's likely though that it doesn't add more processing than iTunes. The latter passes through Core Audio for example, and if your MIDI settings aren't properly configured it may upsample or downsample files on the fly. That's one thing Amarra doesn't do. Another argument could be that it's based on pro audio softwares - I doubt any pro would like to mix with effects. I personally don't think Amarra adds any delay or reverb, I just find that it may be easier to identify those cues from the recording as it seems to me a bit more detailed than iTunes.




Perhaps nobody knows _exactly_ which and how much processing Amarra is adding, but Amarra _is_ adding processing. It's not terribly difficult to hear. In fact, it's very easy to hear when a known clean source is used. Chet Atkins' _America the Beautiful_ from _Solo Sessions_ is an excellent test track, particularly when unwound strings are picked. The song played from CD on an open air system without computer does not have the delay that it has when played through Amarra. Instead, it sounds like it does when played back in iTunes.

You may be confusing Core Audio with Audio Units. Core Audio is Apple's Audio API. Core Audio doesn't add effects to the sound, it's how applications access the audio hardware. Audio Units can be used to add effects to the sound, but iTunes does not support use of AU plugins.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





jaywalk3r said:


> Perhaps nobody knows _exactly_ which and how much processing Amarra is adding, but Amarra _is_ adding processing. It's not terribly difficult to hear. In fact, it's very easy to hear when a known clean source is used. Chet Atkins' _America the Beautiful_ from _Solo Sessions_ is an excellent test track, particularly when unwound strings are picked. The song played from CD on an open air system without computer does not have the delay that it has when played through Amarra. Instead, it sounds like it does when played back in iTunes.
> You may be confusing Core Audio with Audio Units. Core Audio is Apple's Audio API. Core Audio doesn't add effects to the sound, it's how applications access the audio hardware. Audio Units can be used to add effects to the sound, but iTunes does not support use of AU plugins.


 

 Nope, I'm not confusing them. First, I'm not saying iTunes adds any effect, but if you set your MIDI settings to, let's say, 24 / 44.1, and you want to play a 24 / 96 track, you have to switch off iTunes, change the setting in the MIDI panel, reopen iTunes and there you go. Otherwise, your mac will downsample the 24 / 96 track to a 44.1 one. Amarra bypasses this aspect of Core Audio and sends the original file straight to your device. If it can't read 96hz files, there will be no sound, while with iTunes, because of the conversion you'll hear the music - but not at its original rate. That is the only thing we're sure about Amarra and files (that it doesn't convert sample rates - which I suppose can't be called "processing" something, quite the contrary). So as you can see iTunes isn't immune from processing music files, even though in absolute terms downsampling shouldn't bring a massive change in sound quality, and of course nothing will happen if the file sampling rate corresponds to your MIDI settings.
   
  On the other hand, just because you hear it's different from iTunes, you seem to infer that it *adds *processing, which is a flawed logic. Both iTunes and Amarra supposedly are bit-perfect softwares - so although I agree that there seems to me that there is a difference, nobody can explain why and how that difference happens right now (and I think that's a problem when you charge that much money for a software - I'd like Sonic Studio to develop the matter).
   
  On Computer Audiophiles, Jon Reichbach of Sonic Studio said this :
  "In almost all Digital Audio Processing systems there is some amount of processing. For example, every 24 bit integer PCM sample is most likely converted to a float and then back to a sample in the audio driver/hardware. Other types of processing could include Gain, EQ, and Dither. Amarra does not process the data in anyway unless the user specifies it."
   
  So one could also say that it sounds different because it has less processing than iTunes, or a different one. I'm not trying to take sides here, just pointing out the flaw in reasoning that just because it sounds different (better or worse isn't the matter here), it's necessarily because it adds something, while it could in fact be the exact opposite or just a different way to process the sound.


----------



## Jaywalk3r

mayatlab said:


> First, I'm not saying iTunes adds any effect, but if you set your MIDI settings to, let's say, 24 / 44.1, and you want to play a 24 / 96 track, you have to switch off iTunes, change the setting in the MIDI panel, reopen iTunes and there you go. Otherwise, your mac will downsample the 24 / 96 track to a 44.1 one. Amarra bypasses this aspect of Core Audio and sends the original file straight to your device. If it can't read 96hz files, there will be no sound, while with iTunes, because of the conversion you'll hear the music - but not at its original rate.




That's wholly irrelevant with respect to the observation. The tracks originated from a redbook CD. The native rate was used.

From the Amarra Web site, "Amarra works with almost all Core Audio Interfaces." That strongly suggests that Amarra utilizes Core Audio, just like any othe Mac software with audio output.



> On the other hand, just because you hear it's different from iTunes, you seem to infer that it *adds *processing, which is a flawed logic.




It does not require a golden ear to hear delay or reverb on certain types of tracks. Ammara certainly adds such an effect, whether compared to output from iTunes, or from a CD player, bypassing a computer completely.



> Both iTunes and Amarra supposedly are bit-perfect softwares - so although I agree that there seems to me that there is a difference, nobody can explain why and how that difference happens right now (and I think that's a problem when you charge that much money for a software - I'd like Sonic Studio to develop the matter).




I was unable to find on the product Web site any claims of Amarra being bit perfect. 



> So one could also say that it sounds different because it has less processing than iTunes, or a different one. I'm not trying to take sides here, just pointing out the flaw in reasoning that just because it sounds different (better or worse isn't the matter here), it's necessarily because it adds something, while it could in fact be the exact opposite or just a different way to process the sound.




How would that explain iTunes playback sounding similar to CD playback, while Amarra playback does not? It is _your_ logic that is flawed. If A ≠ B and A = C, then B ≠ C.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Jaywalk3r* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It does not require a golden ear to hear delay or reverb on certain types of tracks. Ammara certainly adds such an effect, whether compared to output from iTunes, or from a CD player, bypassing a computer completely.
> 
> ...


 

 If it doesn't require a golden ear to hear this effect, why are you then the first Amarra user to qualify the difference you hear as a reverb / delay effect applied by the software ? The thread you started about that doesn't seem to gather any response, that's maybe because we're all deaf. Now, i may make reverb effects more prominent, or it could even emphasise spatial clues (I personally don't think so, but if you do, it's your experience, and that's valid), but saying that it's an effect intentionally applied by the software is an overstretched inference. 
   
  And the flaw in logic isn't to say that if A ≠ B and A = C, then B ≠ C, it's to say that if B ≠ C, it's necessarily because B *adds* something over A and C. That may indeed be the right explanation, but that may also not be the right one, and until we understand better what's at work we can't be sure of anything.
   
  As a sidenote, I'm still fighting with the ****ty UI and terrible programming, as the uninstall command no longer works on my computer.


----------



## Jaywalk3r

mayatlab said:


> And the flaw in logic isn't to say that if A ≠ B and A = C, then B ≠ C, it's to say that if B ≠ C, it's necessarily because B *adds* something over A and C. That may indeed be the right explanation, but that may also not be the right one, and until we understand better what's at work we can't be sure of anything.




In this instance, C is representative of the CD played directly, without any digital (or analog) effects added at all. Hence, B (i.e., Amarra), being noticeably different in sound (not to be confused with sound quality), must use some effect during playback.



> As a sidenote, I'm still fighting with the ****ty UI and terrible programming, as the uninstall command no longer works on my computer.




Have you tried downloading a demo copy and using the uninstall script from it? Also, are you trying to run the uninstall script in a user account that has administrator privileges?


----------



## AVU

.


----------



## SonicStudio

Hello All,
   
  This is great discussion and we wanted to offer a few points of clarification regarding Amarra.
   
  - Amarra does provide bit-perfect output, it's a basic premise we believe strongly in. 
   
  - Amarra does not process the sound in any way unless the user does so via adding EQ, using DIther or other manual adjustments to the sound stream.  Tracks are played back at their native sample rate, no real-time up or down-samplilng occurs.
   
  - "Amarra works with almost all Core Audio Interfaces" means that Amarra uses the same audio protocols that core audio does.  This allows us to talk to devices that are recognized in Audio Midi Setup.  The signal Amarra presents to those devices is just a better signal than iTunes and other players using core audio can provide.
   
  - Amarra comes in 3 versions
     - Junior is $99
     - MINI is currently on sale for $195
     - Amarra is currently on sale for $495
   
  - One last note - Use of cracked versions of the software is illegal.  We request that you immediately cease using these copies and remove them from your disk drive.  Continued use may result in legal action being taken on behalf of Sonic Studio.
   
  Best regards,

 __________________________________________________

 Sonic Studio Customer Support .:. <support@sonicstudio.com>
 Sonic Studio, LLC .:. Trust the transparency


----------



## KingStyles

Welcome sonic studios. Nice to see you may post here.


----------



## Jaywalk3r

sonicstudio said:


> - Amarra does provide bit-perfect output, it's a basic premise we believe strongly in.
> …
> - "Amarra works with almost all Core Audio Interfaces" means that Amarra uses the same audio protocols that core audio does.  This allows us to talk to devices that are recognized in Audio Midi Setup.  The signal Amarra presents to those devices is just a better signal than iTunes and other players using core audio can provide.




If Amarra is bit-perfect, then how is its bit-perfect signal "better" than iTunes' bit-perfect signal? If Amarra's signal is bit-perfect, then it should sound identical to iTunes' bit-perfect signal. (While I heard a difference with default Amarra settings, I would not describe Amarra's sound as "better.")


----------



## Willakan

Don't suppose the differences between iTunes when bitperfect and a "better" bitperfect signal are quantifiable?


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





jaywalk3r said:


> Have you tried downloading a demo copy and using the uninstall script from it? Also, are you trying to run the uninstall script in a user account that has administrator privileges?


 

 Yes indeed. I'll try to reinstall the software over the older one this WE and see what happens.
   
  I think our disagreement comes mainly from the fact that I personally distinguish between "effects" and "processing" - to me an effect is a modification of the file with the intention to add something, while processing is just the way the music file is handled - I personally think that even the later one can bring differences, even among bit-perfect softwares. I don't know why, but Amarra, iTunes, Decibels, Fidelia, etc. all sound very slightly different to me, despite all being supposedly bit-perfect. Some theorised they may have an influence over jitter, but that's one thing I highly doubt as, if I remember correctly, jitter mainly is the result of hardware components. I think it's weird that somebody would qualify Amarra as adding a reverb effect to anything, to me I just feel it's a tiny bit more detailed and natural / effortless sounding than iTunes, and that may be the reason why I think it's easier to pick sound location cues in the recording (yes, I'm one of those who think Amarra may indeed be "better" sounding than iTunes, although not by a huge margin).
  
  Quote: 





sonicstudio said:


> Hello All,
> 
> This is great discussion and we wanted to offer a few points of clarification regarding Amarra.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for intervening in that discussion.
   
  The thing is, many of us would like to know, especially for Amarra's price, what are the reasons why it sends a "better signal" to DACs. I'm sure there is a way to explain that in more details without violating IP. And indeed, measurements would be better as well. Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio claims he measured less jitter when using Amarra, but that's something I seriously doubt until I see some measurements / graphs coming up.
   
  Also, as I said a bit earlier, there is much work to do to improve the software's UI and coding - because right now the only advantage Amarra has over the competition is (for those who think so - like me) its better SQ. As soon as it looses this edge, you will loose customers, as the rest of the software doesn't have much added value. First of all, I think you should avoid using iTunes simultaneously with the software - something like Fidelia or Decibel would be much better and easier to code and implement without much drawbacks (the only one I see is that somebody wouldn't be able to edit Tag infos while listening to Amarra, but I don't think that's much of an issue for most of us). The playlist mode is a good start, but it's still too limited in UI friendliness and functionnalities to be the equivalent of the aforementioned softwares (and only the top version has the playlist window). If on top of that it could have a more elegant design, that would be nice (because now it looks like something that comes from computer prehistory).
   
  I wouldn't mind the price much if it retained its SQ potential, had a great, well-coded, simple, straightforward but powerful UI, and was elegantly designed, but right now even the Mini is a bit hard to swallow when one sees what the competition can do at a lesser price. I'm lucky enough to have quite extensive resources at my age, but most people aren't in the same boat and will be much more discriminating customers than me when it comes to price / quality ratio.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





willakan said:


> Don't suppose the differences between iTunes when bitperfect and a "better" bitperfect signal are quantifiable?


 
   
  This may go some way to answering that question:
   
  http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/large_image/MAC%20OSX%20audio%20players%20&%20Integer%20Mode.pdf


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





currawong said:


> This may go some way to answering that question:
> 
> http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/large_image/MAC%20OSX%20audio%20players%20&%20Integer%20Mode.pdf


 

 Thank you. Does Amarra run in "hog mode" and in "integer mode" ?


----------



## Willakan

Quote: 





currawong said:


> This may go some way to answering that question:
> 
> http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/large_image/MAC%20OSX%20audio%20players%20&%20Integer%20Mode.pdf


 


  Thanks for the link. I'm afraid I still can't see the logic behind it. My points of contention are mainly:
   
  1) Sources: Stereophile does not constitute a valid source!
  2) Their argument. It seems to split into two forks, one implied, the other stated. They are:
             -Things getting in the way of the audio is bad.
             -Anything much happening whilst music is playing back affects the computer's power supply, which in turn affects clock generation for the sound card, which in turn affects jitter, which is in turn audible.
   
  Ignoring the first point, which is more of an appeal to irrationality than a point (if it is indeed meant to be there at all) and is rendered completely irrelevant by the method of data transmission inside the computer and the presence of buffers, the second point has to have huge numbers of assumptions made, all of which stretch credulity individually, let alone in bulk.
   
  Assumption 1: The CPU is heavily utilised under normal music playback conditions, to an extent that it draws *considerably* more power. The first seems unlikely, the second more so.
  Assumption 2: This places sufficient strain on the power supply to have a measurable affect upon its performance. It seems rather unlikely: light CPU usage during music playback.
  Assumption 3: Meanwhile, all manner of strange interference creeps in from hard drive usage and has the same effect. This seems to play to paranoia more than anything, rather like those who refuse to have switching power supplies in the same room as their hi-fi equipment lest something creeps from them into the mains and hence ruins the performance of everything else...
  Assumption 4: The effect on the power supply is so pronounced as to have an effect on the power rails that indirectly supply the clocks for your audio interface. This seems hugely unlikely.
  Assumption 5: The effect on the quality of the power supplied by these rails is so huge that even after passing through the voltage regulator that feeds the audio interface, there is still a big difference in the power supplied in terms of noise/purity/ect. This seems staggeringly unlikely.
  Assumption 6: This results in the clock generation process being profoundly more jittery than usual. Again, without huge differences in what it gets this seems unlikely.
  Assumption 7: This results in such vast quantities of jitter as to produce an audible difference. This, again, seems very unlikely.
   
  In fact, I would bet inordinate sums of money on this not being the case, in the same way that I do not fear for the performance of my DAC if a television happens to be on somewhere in my house.
  The whole thing is also, as mentioned before, infuriatingly vague and wishy-washy.


----------



## Team

SonicStudio,
   
  You guys make a great product, there's no denying that. However I stand by my earlier comments that your pricing doesn't accurately reflect the actual value of your product (i.e. the time/money taken to develop it) versus the value/pricing structure of your competitor's products. $500 or even $300 are out of reach for many people. Your prices appear to have less to do with intrinsic value than they do with charging the absolute maximum of what you believe the market will bear. That market is people who think $2,000 stereo cable sounds better than the $30 Blue Jeans variety. I don't blindly accept that cost = value, which is why I believe Amarra, though great, is massively overpriced.


----------



## KingStyles

Overpriced for the headfi community doesnt mean it is overpriced for the speaker community. Better quality tends to be able to command a higher price. It sure would be nice if Ferrari lowered there price so Honda drivers can afford it just because the honda drivers say it is overpriced. If you cant afford it, then there are plenty of lowered price options with good sq.


----------



## MayaTlab

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Overpriced for the headfi community doesnt mean it is overpriced for the speaker community. Better quality tends to be able to command a higher price. It sure would be nice if Ferrari lowered there price so Honda drivers can afford it just because the honda drivers say it is overpriced. If you cant afford it, then there are plenty of lowered price options with good sq.


 

 Amarra is like a Ferrari with terrible handling and leaf-spring suspensions. It's true that better quality commands higher prices, but that's precisely the problem with Amarra as, even for those who think it is an improvement over all other softwares (I'm one of those), it still remain below them in terms of UI, function and stability, while being much more expensive in its most interesting version (Mini).


----------



## KingStyles

Iwas sort of thinking the same thing when I chose the Ferrari. Needs lots of maintenance compared to the honda. Likewise, amarra has the sound quality but its gui and quirks end up being the thing that is keeping people from liking it. The people who do use it just end up learning to live with the quirks rather than getting frustrated and not use it at all.


----------



## Currawong

Willakan: Many people who use Amarra have a dedicated music server for it that does nothing else so that any possible interference from the computer is minimised. It might simply be more valuable to build something along the lines of the Computer Audiophile music server and use software that shuts down the other Windows OS functions during playback. However, for me, I'm not interested in having a non-Apple computer running, so something like a Mac Mini, Amarra MINI (or other software) + an isolated USB hub or interface is of more interest to me. Determining the gain and value of any one of these things is not an easy task.


----------



## pigmode

FYI: The $495. sale price of Amarra is scheduled to conclude at the end of Mar. It remains to be seen if they extend it or not, but frankly it makes sense to adopt it as the regular price.


----------



## pigmode

Amarra will soon be less expensive, with changes. Any thoughts?
   
   
   
    
    [size=12pt]May 1, 2012 [/size]
  [size=24.000000pt]Amarra Update [/size]
  [size=16pt]Amarra Product and Price Changes [/size][size=12pt]Greetings: [/size]
  [size=12pt]This information is for Sonic Studio customers who have purchased the Amarra product within the past ninety (90) days from the date of this update. [/size]
  [size=12pt]Sonic Studio will shortly publically announce a significant price reduction for its Amarra product. Along with the price change, Amarra’s feature-set has been changed to meet product focus and market conditions. [/size]
  [size=16.000000pt]Price and Feature Changes [/size]
  [size=12pt]The new worldwide retail price for Amarra is US$189.00. Customers who have purchased Amarra within the past 90 days from the date of this update are entitled to receive one additional free license of Amarra in consideration of the price change. [/size]
  [size=12pt]To receive your additional license of Amarra, please send an email to [/size][size=12pt]sales@sonicstudio.com [/size][size=12pt]referencing this update information. You will be provided with a code to download your free copy of Amarra. [/size]
  [size=12pt]There are key differences between the version of Amarra at US$189.00 and the older version of Amarra that was sold for retail price of US$695.00: [/size]
  [size=12pt]Amarra will no longer support the following feature-set: [/size]

  [size=11.000000pt]  [/size][size=12pt]Signal Meters [/size]
  [size=11.000000pt]  [/size][size=12pt]Built-in channel panning [/size]
  [size=11.000000pt]  [/size][size=12pt]Sonic Mastering EQ [/size]
  [size=11.000000pt]  [/size][size=12pt]Izotope mBit+ dither [/size]
  [size=12pt][Note: [/size][size=10pt]Amarra will now feature Sonic’s own dithering algorithms, which are included with our professional mastering system called soundBladeTM] [/size]
  [size=12pt]One additional distinction is that Amarra products will now include one license for one purchase. Previous versions of Amarra included two licenses for one purchase. Note that your original license of Amarra will continue to support the previous feature set of Amarra software version 2.3. [/size]
  [size=12.000000pt]How Are We Doing? [/size]
  [size=12pt]Please let us know if you have any questions or comments regarding this information or arrangements by emailing us at [/size][size=12pt]sales@sonicstudio.com. [/size][size=12pt]We look forward to continuing to earn your support and business, and we hope that you love Amarra as much as we do. [/size]


----------



## HiFiGuy528

I paid $299 for the Mini that never worked well. IMO, it's not worth the NEW lower price.


----------



## JulioCat2

What they need to release is a bug free version of their costly software for free to all their users.


----------



## blackads

Just received confirmation from Sonic that the activation code I received when I bought mini on 30 March will work with the new full Amarra 2.4.
They also said that they will post links to the new release shortly.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





blackads said:


> Just received confirmation from Sonic that the activation code I received when I bought mini on 30 March will work with the new full Amarra 2.4.
> They also said that they will post links to the new release shortly.


 
   
  Have you seen the release notes to determine what's been addressed (fixed) since 2.3? Thanks. Update: Just found *Read me 2.4.*
   
*- Improvements to Amarra mode and skipping.*
   
  This is a big one for me. Will await feedback.


----------



## KingStyles

Where did you find the read me 2.4?


----------



## KingStyles

Found it. It is out now.    http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarrasupport.html#software


----------



## HiFiGuy528

I'll check it out.  Thanks for the link.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kingstyles said:


> Found it. It is out now.    http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarrasupport.html#software


 
   
  If you had previous versions and take 2.4 for a drive, purchase or update, don't forget to report back. Thanks.


----------



## pigmode

So I have Amarra Symphony now. I'm getting prompts for an upgrade (I'm guessing for 2.4), but still have questions before jumping in. I'm also wondering about the new Sonic dithering in comparison to the Izotope.


----------



## paradoxper

I think their price change is competitive now.
   
  Has anyone tried Amarra HIFI?


----------



## dallan

I got a link in the email from Sonic Studios to the 2.4 download, first time i have upgraded in a long time.  Sounds good to me.  Just started listening a half hour ago, no glitches yet.  I have always been happy with Amarra though.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> I think their price change is competitive now.
> 
> Has anyone tried Amarra HIFI?


 
   
  Yes, I downloaded just before Midnight. Sounds good in general. On a few selected tracks inside the library, HiFi sounded great! Was only able to spend 30 minutes with it, need more time over the weekend. Personally, I want more - Amarra "Full" or "Symphony" so I'll have Cache play, separate Playlist, EQ, Gapless Play and so on...
   
  A great move at $49!
   
  One thing I have my eye on is the horizon - Mountain Lion will debut maybe August, and is said by developers to handle audio much better than Lion.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Yes, I downloaded just before Midnight. Sounds good in general. On a few selected tracks inside the library, HiFi sounded great! Was only able to spend 30 minutes with it, need more time over the weekend. Personally, I want more - Amarra "Full" or "Symphony" so I'll have Cache play, separate Playlist, EQ, Gapless Play and so on...
> 
> A great move at $49!
> 
> One thing I have my eye on is the horizon - Mountain Lion will debut maybe August, and is said by developers to handle audio much better than Lion.


 
  Oh, HIFI doesn't support gapless playback?


----------



## MayaTlab

Has anybody noticed a change in SQ with this update ?


----------



## HiFiGuy528

I have H-Fi version and Amarra, HiFi does NOT support gapless playback.  Amarra has to be in Playlist Mode to get gapless playback.


----------



## KevinWolff

Tried to install hi-fi on Mountain Lion DP3. It wouldn't install. Not surprising since the OS isn't complete yet, so no 10.8 tests yet


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





mayatlab said:


> Has anybody noticed a change in SQ with this update ?


 
   
  Yes. Using Lion, I hear improvement with 2.4 over v2.3.3 under both Lion & Snow Leopard.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  In what way is the sound improved?
   
  Did you update your 2.3.3 with 2.4? If so can you check if:
   
   
  ...this update still supports the "Full Sonic (parametric) Equalizer"? This needed to be turned on in preferences (after restart)
   
  ...this 2.4 update supports Izotope or Sonic dithering?


----------



## HiFiGuy528

2.4 upgrade from 2.3 was a PITA.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> In what way is the sound improved?
> 
> Did you update your 2.3.3 with 2.4? If so can you check if:
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  After installing HiFi, I only went 60 minutes in. Still have some playing/listening (lots) to do. Of the 24 tracks played, a few selected tracks sounded stunning! Recording/mastering matters, without a doubt. But these same three tracks on 2.3.3 (Full) with both Lion & Snow Leopard sounded good. But were stunning on HiFi!
   
  Many of the tracks (24) sounded good with HiFi, as well as 2.3.3. However, experience from other tweaks and component swaps tells me that when I peruse the music library, there's going to be some tracks that fare really well with one version or the other but not always both.
   
  So, what did I hear? Now you're talking! On those selected tracks, there was a greater opening of the sound stage, more spacious, depth and air around instruments. Definitely more w-i-d-e open! With the other tracks, things were a lot more subtle if heard at all, and lacking some of the depth and punch 2.3.3. has. Again, subtle perhaps but...
   
  I really need to find out if Cache mode and separate playlist still has audible gains in v2.4. This is one reason why I'm interested in Amarra or Symphony. And above all, HiFi did NOT skip... and trip over itself during my demo. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 At $49, HiFi gets a "Buy" rating in my book!


----------



## pigmode

Thanks Silent One.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





hifiguy528 said:


> 2.4 upgrade from 2.3 was a PITA.


 
   
   
  Any other details? Did you delete preferences before hand?


----------



## Silent One

It is my understanding from the Sonic Studio page that one should not delete preferences first like in times past. Just awoke from a nap so, perhaps I should re-read the page after dinner.


----------



## pigmode

> In regards to preferences, check the bottom line. 
   


> Amarra 2.4 Release : Notes
> Amarra 2.4 represents significant improvements in sound quality, feature stability, and easy of use. We recommend this release for all customers.
> 
> Amarra 2.3 feature set for all Amarra users who purchased before May 3, 2012.
> ...


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> > In regards to preferences, check the bottom line.


 
   
  Ok, I'm awake now. Thanks for the info. Please allow me to clarify and all will be right when I'm in-session later tonight. Due to serious problems with licensing in the past, here's what Sonic Studio advises:
   
   
_If your have a previous version of Amarra on you Mac, *then first install the new software to *_
*allow your license to be updated properly.  After installation, please delete your existing Amarra *
_*preferences prior to launching this version.*  This action is necessary to ensure Amarra 2.4  runs _
_properly._
   

 The box you highlighted expresses the same thing but will be misinterpreted by many, as witnessed with v2.3 & 2.3.3. How many people read manuals thoroughly first with new stuff? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thought I'd draw it out on their behalf...


----------



## pigmode

The things we go through in the pursuit of better sound quality. Thanks.


----------



## Silent One

Audio addiction can dig deep - return with motivation we never knew we had.


----------



## iamoneagain

Well I still can't get in due to some weird permissions problem. Hopefully they can fix so I can test this out again. I'll probably still end up using Audirvana Plus because it does gapless with out having to load up playlists.  I also found I really like the sound of it's upsampling. But I am curious about the current sound of Amarra and whether they finally fixed all their bugs.  Plus since I did pay for it, I would like to have the ability to still use it.


----------



## Silent One

Did you install first before trashing your preferences? Or did you delete the Amarra folder before your fresh install?


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Did you install first before trashing your preferences? Or did you delete the Amarra folder before your fresh install?


 
   
   
  I completely removed previous version in past.  I've had this issue going back 2 versions, I just never bothered to get fixed.  Thought it might finally work with latest update.  I emailed company again to see if they can get it working.


----------



## dallan

So i downloaded the new Amarra 2.4 but have never deleted the previous one-2.2, is that a problem?  It is still in my dock, i actually brought it up to a/b it at close time intervals to see the difference...which i liked better.  Not even sure how to delete this one exactly without effecting the new one but i don't seem to have an issue just leaving it.  Any ideas?


----------



## iamoneagain

Well I finally got in!  Needed to set read/write preferences directly to the Armarra folder and apply to all contents within.
   
  Now as far as the sound, I find Audirvana + better than Amarra in both cache mode direct play and cache playlist mode.  Audirvana + has more detail, air, and is more dynamic.  Amarra has a great sound and the current look is much better than the one a few versions back but I still hate the early 90's color and font they use.  
   
  For Audirvana +, the settings I've used to compare with are:
   
*Audio System: *Exclusive access, *Audio Filters:* iZotope 64-bit SRC best quality, no forced upsampling, *iTunes: *all boxes checked.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> Now as far as the sound, I find Audirvana + better than Amarra in both cache mode direct play and cache playlist mode. * Audirvana + has more detail, air, and is more dynamic.  *


 
   
   
  System synergy imo is always a factor, as I have the same results with Amarra 2.3.3. At the same time I found Audirvana + a bit forward and contrived in its HF and upper-mids, and without the sense of naturalness and ease of the Amarra sound. Ymmv.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> *System synergy imo is always a factor, as I have the same results with Amarra 2.3.3.* At the same time I found Audirvana + a bit forward and contrived in its HF and upper-mids, and without the sense of naturalness and ease of the Amarra sound. Ymmv.


 
   
  This was my experience as well... _system synergy. _Based on configs the past several months, I found A+ to sound good but Amarra to sound better. However, I always strive to keep an open mind. I have made system changes in February, so will revisit A+ with a 15 Day trial in a few days.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> System synergy imo is always a factor, as I have the same results with Amarra 2.3.3. At the same time I found Audirvana + a bit forward and contrived in its HF and upper-mids, and without the sense of naturalness and ease of the Amarra sound. Ymmv.


 
   
   
  Well my conclusion was based just on a quick listen so I try listening to whole album to get a better feel. Might have been too quick to dismiss.


----------



## Silent One

I personally like to have a 21 day minimum inside the listening room... but this is not always possible. But, I always prefer extended time with something new over A/B comparo's.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
   
  Our systems are completely different, so I wouldn't be surprised if you'd prefer different software. I still have Fidelia Advanced (I thinks its called) and Audirvana + in case I might need them.


----------



## KevinWolff

With my setup I find there's nothing that compares to Amarra's tonally rich sound. I wish it weren't true as I find Amarra's license issues and overall bugginess frustrating enough to dump if I could find something comparable. I've tried SimpleMusic, Audirvanna, bitperfect, Fidelia, etc. All of them fell way short of Amarra.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> With my setup I find there's nothing that compares to Amarra's tonally rich sound.* I wish it weren't true as I find Amarra's license issues and overall bugginess frustrating enough to dump if I could find something comparable.* I've tried SimpleMusic, Audirvanna, bitperfect, Fidelia, etc. All of them fell way short of Amarra.


 
   
   
  And I'd dump it with my hand cupped between forearm and upper arm. Screw them their bogus software, and rip off prices.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> With my setup I find there's nothing that compares to Amarra's tonally rich sound. I wish it weren't true as I find Amarra's license issues and overall bugginess frustrating enough to dump if I could find something comparable. I've tried SimpleMusic, Audirvanna, bitperfect, Fidelia, etc. All of them fell way short of Amarra.


 
   
   
  Well after listening some more, I hearing more of that richness in the strings.  So it's sound might be winning my over.  But I really hate having to load up the playlist to get the best sound and gapless playback.  It also loads the whole damn album into memory.  The other players are just so much easier.  So far no bugs yet but I'm not holding my breathe.


----------



## KevinWolff

The worst part is our complaints about gapless, licensing and bugs AREN'T the worst part. To my ears there's a difference between 2.2 and 2.4, even on snow leopard. 2.4 has a thinner bottom end which I can't afford to lose given how neutral my setup is. I used the opening of Springsteen's Point Blank as my test track because of it's heavy-ish bass intro. I A/B'd them, but I don't even need to do that anymore. There's less bass coming through in 2.4, a slightly wider soundstage and...[choke]... less richness. On Lion the news is even worse. The soundstage is much wider and the bass is even thinner, almost recessed. For me it's a deal breaker for 2.4 and even for Lion (This may all be Lion's fault because Apple changed the way audio is handled in it, and I guess Sonic Studio had to make changes to work with it. I don't really know, it's just a guess). How big a difference is it really? Some may not even notice, but for me it feels like a component in my setup has been downgraded.
  I even considered moving my listening off my main mac and getting a mini to use with snow lep so I can upgrade to Lion and beyond on my main mac. But what happens once iTunes no longer supports snow lep? Then I'll have to use old versions of iTunes as well. It's maddening to be sure. Hopefully Apple will fix audio in the upcoming Mountain Lion.


----------



## Silent One

A few developers have recently reported Mountain Lion handles/does audio better than Lion. The developer of the app BitPerfect was the last one I heard spread promise for the new Cat.


----------



## KevinWolff

That's good news!
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> A few developers have recently reported Mountain Lion handles/does audio better than Lion. The developer of the app BitPerfect was the last one I heard spread promise for the new Cat.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> That's good news!


 
   
  A few times a season, perhaps, I'll log in at Apple's Developer Connection site and peruse a bit. I've downloaded some basic tools in the past, but every time I raise the necessary $99 fee, it gets diverted to tubes or some other audio related purchase. 
   
  Soon, I'm just gonna pay it so I can play around some... _who doesn't like to play around?_


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> With my setup I find there's nothing that compares to Amarra's tonally rich sound. I wish it weren't true as I find Amarra's license issues and overall bugginess frustrating enough to dump if I could find something comparable. I've tried SimpleMusic, Audirvanna, bitperfect, Fidelia, etc. All of them fell way short of Amarra.


 
   
  I agree with this completely.  Exactly my experience.  Bugginess and all.  But yes, the richness is the best thing.  I do think A+ is excellent however, as is Fidelia with the proper settings.
   
  But dude, they dropped the price of Amarra from $700 to $189?
   
  When did that happen?!?  
   
  And Amarra Hifi is $49?  What is that?


----------



## KevinWolff

The price drop is them half responding to the market, half marketing gimmick. They rebranded them. junior, mini, and amarra are now hi-fi, amarra and symphony. The plus side is they upped the sample rate on mini (now amarra) from 96 to 192, and hunior/hi-fi can do 96 instead of topping at 44. So now all you are missing by not getting symphony (formerly amarra regular) is the meters and a peak sample rate of 384. I don't care about 384, but the meters are nice to have. So for most of us, amarra (formerly mini) is the sweet spot. Gapless, 24/192. There's no gapless on hi-fi, which makes it mostly a way to intro amarra to people that would normally dismiss it because of price, and then get them to upgrade when they learn that caching and gapless playlists are key to a pleasant listening experience. 
  So instead of their pricing model being 10-15 years out of date, it's only 5-10 years out of date. That's some progress at least. 
  Quote: 





avu said:


> I agree with this completely.  Exactly my experience.  Bugginess and all.  But yes, the richness is the best thing.  I do think A+ is excellent however, as is Fidelia with the proper settings.
> 
> But dude, they dropped the price of Amarra from $700 to $189?
> 
> ...


----------



## KevinWolff

I would suggest saving your money for now. It won't install on the latest developer preview, meaning either the OS is not ready or (more likely) amarra need code changes to work with Mountain Lion. And given Sonic Studio's past release schedule, we probably won't see an update until after Mountain Lion is released. 
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> A few times a season, perhaps, I'll log in at Apple's Developer Connection site and peruse a bit. I've downloaded some basic tools in the past, but every time I raise the necessary $99 fee, it gets diverted to tubes or some other audio related purchase.
> 
> Soon, I'm just gonna pay it so I can play around some... _who doesn't like to play around?_


----------



## Currawong

Upgraded. It's the first version that hasn't been a nuisance in some way, at least so far (least I be jinxing myself writing this). I agree, crazy as it may be to some to say it, but it's the best-sounding playback software of all that I've tried, other than using my iPad instead of my MacBook Pro.


----------



## Rumbleripper

I just want to chim in also and say that I have upgraded and it is working better than 2.3.3 which would skip at the end of ACC tracks. I have tried all the players available on Mac OS X and I also feel that Amarra is the best sound wise with my system. YMMV.
   
  Rumble


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Upgraded. It's the first version that hasn't been a nuisance in some way, at least so far (least I be jinxing myself writing this). I agree, crazy as it may be to some to say it, but it's the best-sounding playback software of all that I've tried, other than using my iPad instead of my MacBook Pro.


 
   
  Yeah, I've only one night with it, so fingers crossed. Will return tomorrow night with more play time. It had been extremely difficult to get through each listening session with 2.3.3 without feeling annoyed.


----------



## iamoneagain

So far after a day with 2.4, I haven't had any bugs.  I used to get the skipping bug at the end of some ALAC tracks and that's why I sought out other players.  Don't think I've used Amarra for over a year since trying again the other day.  Still think it's more of a pain to use than Audirvana but about the same as using Decibel.  
   
  I'm still not sure I like the sound better than Audirvana. Could be that my headphones already have a thick sound and Amarra doesn't help. It gives me more of a closed in feeling than Audirvana does.  But I'm trying to decide which is more natural in my system.  But even then, I'm going to end up using the one I like best, not the one that has the truest sound.
   
  Edit: Funny, now going back to Audrivana, it sounds too thin.  Amarra has more punch and just seems fuller.  Could have been that certain track that sounded too thick.  But switched to another album and Amarra sounds much better.


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





> Edit: Funny, now going back to Audrivana, it sounds too thin.  Amarra has more punch and just seems fuller.  Could have been that certain track that sounded too thick.  But switched to another album and Amarra sounds much better.


 
   
  That's how I felt the other day when I went back and forth between the two.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





santacore said:


> That's how I felt the other day when I went back and forth between the two.


 
  Hey stranger, so you finally got amarra to work for you....Great!


----------



## santacore

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Hey stranger, so you finally got amarra to work for you....Great!


 
  Hey now. Yeah, I got it working last year. Turns out my USB cable was 1.0, and my DAC wanted 2.0. Once I switched it, things got much better.
   
  I've been really liking the build I have now(late last year), so I'm concerned about installing the latest. Might go for it after hearing some more feedback.


----------



## Silent One

santacore; iamoneagain--
   
  After going back and forth for fun the first 15 minutes to an hour, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I really recommend leaving Amarra in for up 15 days of the trial, 21 days if you own it. And then dig for impressions.


----------



## dallan

I like the sound of the new version better John.  I have.....2.2 i think that worked fairly well for me but a bug now and then.  The new one so far has had no drawbacks.  Kinda feel burnt though, I  upgraded at a bit of a discount to full Amarra and now the price is way down.  Guess i got to use it for two years though, and before that i had the mini so, yeah, things devaluate and the recession i guess.  Anyway, i kept the old one and the new one on the dock so i can choose, eventually i'll just delete the old i guess.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





silent one said:


> santacore; iamoneagain--
> 
> After going back and forth for fun the first 15 minutes to an hour,
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, I think I'm going to stick with it.  Now I'm playing around with the playlist mode vs direct play.  I notice the playlist mode is actually bassier. And on a particular track i found the direct play better. It's also a lot easier.  Now if the could only get gapless to work with direct play like the other player do.


----------



## santacore

I'm glad you guys are digging it. I'm running 2.3.4315 (build 4315) and have been really enjoying it. It sounds so good that I haven't felt the need to upgrade. Of course, this new version seems like a bigger deal, so I might just go for it.
   
  Dallan, I hear ya on the money thing. But as with all things computer related, a few years later, most stuff sells for a fraction of the cost it did when you bought it. Hopefully you got a lot of use out of it, like I did, and it made the investment worth it.


----------



## Silent One

Well with me, I was granted a complimentary license for Amarra HiFi by Sonic Studio over at Computer Audiophile, where I'm a member. Last Friday night, Sonic Studio & CA granted free copies to the first 50 members to leave a comment - I was number 5. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, in the words of the immortal Ray Charles... _"I'm going to make it do what it do, baby!"_


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Congrats, have always wanted to try out Amarra but have had a really hard time justifying the cost.  Still rocking Audirvana osx side and Foobar windows side.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





mr.sneis said:


> Congrats, have always wanted to try out Amarra but have had a really hard time justifying the cost.  Still rocking Audirvana osx side and Foobar windows side.


 
   
  You went A+ or standard version? I need a new trial because I have Audirvana, but the plus version sounded better to me. However, did not upgrade and it was featured in a slightly different system than I have now. Fidelia recaptured my attention last night with the new Headphone option. Anyone here demo this feature with Fidelia? Right now, will make the best of Amarra HiFi and may upgrade if I don't fall for the other two players.
   
  Formerly in my system, Pure Music always led the pack of OS X players I had installed. Once I heard Amarra, I never looked back. This spring will be time for a complete evaluation.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Quote: 





silent one said:


> You went A+ or standard version? I need a new trial because I have Audirvana, but the plus version sounded better to me. However, did not upgrade and it was featured in a slightly different system than I have now. Fidelia recaptured my attention last night with the new Headphone option. Anyone here demo this feature with Fidelia? Right now, will make the best of Amarra HiFi and may upgrade if I don't fall for the other two players.
> 
> Formerly in my system, Pure Music always led the pack of OS X players I had installed. Once I heard Amarra, I never looked back. This spring will be time for a complete evaluation.


 

 I'm running the free older version; I think it was the release right before he started the Audirvana+ business model.  I know he updated the free version but I'm a little afraid to download it.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I finally upgraded to Amarra 2.4 but I had a password issue when it asked me to pick a new one.  I contacted tech support, and they reset my password and then called me on the phone to walk me through the install on their dime, and it worked.  This of course deactivated Amarra 2.2 so I can't compare them (I passed over version 2.3.3).
   
  I can say that my audio skipping issues with a 2.4Ghz Core2Duo 8Gb/750Gb Macbook Pro are resolved.  However, now when I try to play music that's on an iTunes shared library on the network (via home sharing inside iTunes) I get no audio without clicking on the button to disable Amarra.  They said they'd look into this on their setup and get back to me.  Any music that's in the local iTunes library plays fine.
   
  Anyone else here who can't hear music that's coming from an iTunes shared library when using Amarra?  
   
  The work around for me right now is to click "import" on the music I want to hear and then I'll play the music from my own iTunes library.  My network is fast enough that this isn't a big issue for me.  Overall, I am still very happy with the audio improvements with Amarra, coupled with being able to use iTunes to control my listening, library and playlists.


----------



## Silent One

I hope Tech Support is able to overcome this issue for you, HeadphoneAddict. Not that you won't be able to enjoy the music. But once worked out, your mind will be free to enjoy the music in a higher state of mind, knowing things are as they should be.


----------



## iamoneagain

Well, I can also say my skipping bug seemed fixed.  I played some tracks that I know used to skip in the older version and they played fine.  For the most, I am now just using in cache mode/direct play instead of using the playlist. In this mode, Amarra is just as easy to use as the other players. I'll have to do some more testing, but I may prefer the sound of direct mode.  Then I'd only use playlist for gapless albums.
   
  So only issue I came across is I have some tracks that are in 88.2 kHz and Amarra can't play them. It's switches back to iTunes mode and shows them as 44.1 files, so doesn't even adjust the sample rate for me.  I haven't found what sample rates Amarra plays other than the max rate.


----------



## kimchee411

Just found out about the new pricing structure - great news!  Unfortunately lack of flac support in iTunes and an otherwise horrendous UI are deal breakers for me.  JPlay in Windows is an overall better solution IMO with its integration with JRiver, which is also a full-fledged HTPC solution with great smartphone apps to boot.


----------



## Curly21029

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Just found out about the new pricing structure - great news!  Unfortunately lack of flac support in iTunes and an otherwise horrendous UI are deal breakers for me.  JPlay in Windows is an overall better solution IMO with its integration with JRiver, which is also a full-fledged HTPC solution with great smartphone apps to boot.


 
   
  Fluke allows for the addition of FLAC files to iTunes.  I believe it's freeware as well.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





curly21029 said:


> Fluke allows for the addition of FLAC files to iTunes.  I believe it's freeware as well.


 
   
  Fluke is very buggy and slow when the files are on a share.


----------



## kimchee411

IIRC, it also lacks support for vorbis tags, which is huge.


----------



## Curly21029

Quote: 





kimchee411 said:


> Fluke is very buggy and slow when the files are on a share.


 
   
  Not sure what you mean by "on a share."  At any rate, I personally look to circumvent iTunes whenever possible anyway and find the number of players that rely on integration disappointing.  Amarra's playlist sounds damn great and does away with any need for iTunes.  It's just too bad that it's so damn clunky to use.


----------



## kimchee411

Quote: 





curly21029 said:


> Not sure what you mean by "on a share."  At any rate, I personally look to circumvent iTunes whenever possible anyway and find the number of players that rely on integration disappointing.  Amarra's playlist sounds damn great and does away with any need for iTunes.  It's just too bad that it's so damn clunky to use.


 
   
  "On a share" = network storage, i.e. files are on a server or NAS rather than local hard drive.  I agree, Amarra does sound damn good, but its usability is sorely lacking.  Completely outrageous at $700+, somewhat ridiculous at $189, and maybe OK at $49 when considering the sound quality.  I haven't had a chance to compare Amarra and JPlay side-by-side, but JPlay is the only other playback software that has impressed me like Amarra does, though maybe not to the same degree.  In addition I have used Pure Music, Decibel, Fidelia, Squeezeplay on Mac, Squeezeslave-WASAPI, Foobar2000 WASAPI, and others not worth mentioning and those 2 stand out.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





curly21029 said:


> Not sure what you mean by "on a share."  At any rate, I personally look to circumvent iTunes whenever possible anyway and find the number of players that rely on integration disappointing.  Amarra's playlist sounds damn great and does away with any need for iTunes.  It's just too bad that it's so damn clunky to use.


 
   
  Integration with iTunes was the major draw for me, since I have hundreds and hundreds of smart playlists in iTunes that I use to play my music.


----------



## Curly21029

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> Integration with iTunes was the major draw for me, since I have hundreds and hundreds of smart playlists in iTunes that I use to play my music.


 
   
  You and many others, I'm sure.  As a feature, iTunes integration is a boon.  As a requirement, it can be a hinderance.  I'm rolling equipment again making it difficult to take yet another player into consideration, but a quick listen to the latest build of Fidelia gave me the impression that SQ had improved over the previous version. (it sounded too "digital" to my ears in the past)  Completely self-contained AND with access to one's iTunes library with an intuitive user experience... that's how it's done.


----------



## Windsor

After an exciting few hours picking up the new Sennheiser Amperior yesterday and being very, very impressed with how it sounds (though I want to burn it in some more), I checked my Facebook page to discover that Sonic Studios had given me a free copy of Amarra due to my participation in their recent giveaway. About an hour after emailing them to claim my prize they had replied and Amarra Hifi had been installed on my Mac. What a day!
   
  I tried the Amarra Mini demo about a year previously and enjoyed its integration with iTunes (my main Mac music source), and sometimes it worked well, but it often cut out and took too long for my preference (about 2-4 seconds) to play songs when I selected them. Compared to that experience, Amarra Hifi has been most welcome! 
   
  With all of my current headphones, when Amarra is switched on, music just sounds better. The soundstage is more expansive, and recordings are presented with more sonic weight and PRaT. (The latter has worked wonders for my recently acquired HD 800, which since reviewing it here am currently using in combination with a Black Dragon cable another head-fier lent me - it now holds up better for rock music than any other HD 800 setup I've yet, with probably more benefits to be discovered.)
   
  So far, I am very grateful for the enhancements created by Amarra Hifi and highly recommend it.


----------



## Windsor

Just upgraded to the newest version of Amarra Hifi which incorporates gapless playback (my only previous reservation with Amarra Hifi) and reportedly increased sound quality. Kudos to Sonic Studios!


----------



## iamoneagain

I tried this and still get a micro-second gap.  Not sure what I'm doing wrong.  Also takes quite awhile if you set it to preload the album.  I believe this is the same way Pure Music handles gapless, except for that you need to have it check in iTunes.  I would rather have it done like BitPerfect or Audirvana, where it only preloads the next track, so it doesn't eat all you memory and the tracks start right away.  So for now, I have the preload feature turned off.
   
  As far as the sound, I didn't test against the old version, but seems to sound better than before.  I know I like it better than the other two programs I mentioned.  I has the most realistic drums, with better impact and the mids seem a little sweeter.
   
  Edit: Just tried some Pink Floyd and gapless seemed to work, so might have been a glitch with another album.  But it still takes awhile to get the whole album loaded.  It is nice to finally have Amarra run completely in the background.  I just have it set to hide on launch and use iTunes in fullscreen.


----------



## Windsor

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> I tried this and still get a micro-second gap.  Not sure what I'm doing wrong.  Also takes quite awhile if you set it to preload the album.  I believe this is the same way Pure Music handles gapless, except for that you need to have it check in iTunes.  I would rather have it done like BitPerfect or Audirvana, where it only preloads the next track, so it doesn't eat all you memory and the tracks start right away.  So for now, I have the preload feature turned off.
> 
> As far as the sound, I didn't test against the old version, but seems to sound better than before.  I know I like it better than the other two programs I mentioned.  I has the most realistic drums, with better impact and the mids seem a little sweeter.
> 
> Edit: Just tried some Pink Floyd and gapless seemed to work, so might have been a glitch with another album.  But it still takes awhile to get the whole album loaded.  It is nice to finally have Amarra run completely in the background.  I just have it set to hide on launch and use iTunes in fullscreen.


 
   
  You can vary the number of tracks Amarra preloads via the preferences menu.


----------



## KingStyles

> I tried this and still get a micro-second gap. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Also takes quite awhile if you set it to preload the album. I believe this is the same way Pure Music handles gapless, except for that you need to have it check in iTunes. I would rather have it done like BitPerfect or Audirvana, where it only preloads the next track, so it doesn't eat all you memory and the tracks start right away. So for now, I have the preload feature turned off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You cant resist the force. You will always return to Amarra.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





windsor said:


> You can vary the number of tracks Amarra preloads via the preferences menu.


 
   
  I just tried this and it's terrible the way they implemented it.  On other players, it preloads in background, on this, it plays number of preloaded tracks, stops and then loads up again.  I might as well just do the initial wait for the whole album.
   
  Amarra is getting better but still wish other players sounded as good since still prefer their faster performance.


----------



## HiFiGuy528

I am finally enjoying the app.  I have the Hi-Fi and Mini version.


----------



## pigmode

I've just mindlessly upgraded Amarra to 2.4.1 and its completely broken playlist function in my system. I'll think twice next time, for sure.


----------



## Silent One

I think it might be time for Sonic Studio to bring in some outside help - consulting or contractor. Their playback engine is of quality. It's the chassis and integration that's troubling.


----------



## iamoneagain

So I gave up on Amarra again.  I couldn't get gapless to work right.  Think it has to do with my tracks ripped using XLD into ALAC.  Amarra seems to chop off a millisecond of the beginning of my tracks so they don't seem flawlessly into the next track.  Also don't like waiting for a minute or so for the whole album to load. Even if I don't use Amarra's preload option, I noticed individual tracks have beginning chopped off.   I've tried to rerip tracks back in AIFF in iTunes and then back in ALAC and it didn't fix the problem.  This bug is minor compared to the problems I've had in the past, but it still effects my enjoyment of the music.  Not too much to expect flawless playback.
   
  So I've played around with the setting on BitPerfection (their beta) and think I got their sound quality on par.  It's just so much quicker by not preloading the whole album but still providing perfect gapless playback.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> So I've played around with the setting on BitPerfection (their beta) and think I got their sound quality on par.  It's just so much quicker by not preloading the whole album but still providing perfect gapless playback.


 
  Could you give more specific details/comparisons between Bitperfection (Even though it's in beta), Bitperfect and Amarra. Thanks.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Could you give more specific details/comparisons between Bitperfection (Even though it's in beta), Bitperfect and Amarra. Thanks.


 
   
   
  Well both Bitperfection and Audirvana Plus have some new direct play that's supposed to improve sound quality.  Both in beta mode.  I find Bitperfection has a little bit richer sound than Audirvana and I can control the bit depth.  As far as sound quality, they have a few different settings and sliders play around with. I have the SRC setting at Intermediate, Minimized iTunes Interaction, and Timing Precision at better.  I also have it set at 16bit to match the tracks since that sounds best with my DAC.
   
  The playback of the beta is the same as BitPerfect on the App store.  Runs in the background with just an icon at the top.  No playlists needed or anything check in iTunes to get gapless.  I believe it loads one or two tracks up and the preloads the next track in background when ready.  So don't take long to load and doesn't need as much memory either.  Also no pauses like how Amarra does if you set it to only load 2 tracks.
   
  Edit: After testing more tracks, I still find Amarra does sound little better.  Now it's a matter of how much better to deal with it's issues.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> Well both Bitperfection and Audirvana Plus have some new direct play that's supposed to improve sound quality.  Both in beta mode.  I find Bitperfection has a little bit richer sound than Audirvana and I can control the bit depth.  As far as sound quality, they have a few different settings and sliders play around with. I have the SRC setting at Intermediate, Minimized iTunes Interaction, and Timing Precision at better.  I also have it set at 16bit to match the tracks since that sounds best with my DAC.
> 
> The playback of the beta is the same as BitPerfect on the App store.  Runs in the background with just an icon at the top.  No playlists needed or anything check in iTunes to get gapless.  I believe it loads one or two tracks up and the preloads the next track in background when ready.  So don't take long to load and doesn't need as much memory either.  Also no pauses like how Amarra does if you set it to only load 2 tracks.


 
  While I do like Amarra(when it properly works) I may try out Audirvana Plus after beta. Was never really impressed with it when I previously tried it out.
   
  Is Bitperfection the same exact thing as Bitperfect then? I am assuming Bitperfection is gaged to give Lion users Integer mode which is already
  available with Bitperfect for SL. I was really more interested in if Bitperfection gave an audible upgrade in the sound department compared to Bitperfect.


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> While I do like Amarra(when it properly works) I may try out Audirvana Plus after beta. Was never really impressed with it when I previously tried it out.
> 
> Is Bitperfection the same exact thing as Bitperfect then? I am assuming Bitperfection is gaged to give Lion users Integer mode which is already
> available with Bitperfect for SL. I was really more interested in if Bitperfection gave an audible upgrade in the sound department compared to Bitperfect.


 
   
   
  Gotcha, I haven't tested the two against each other.  Yes, Bitperfection is exactly what you say it is.  I'm not sure my system with even show the benefits since I'm just using a toslink cable. Think he's made some other revisions over Bitfperfect as well.  I was part of the original beta program, so I'm still get the latest test builds.  I'll test the two programs against each other and see if can tell a difference.
   
  Think you can get Audirvana Plus beta here but if you already used up your preview time, you might have to see if you can get reset to try this.  I bought the program, so I'm free to try the betas as well: http://audirvana.com/?p=304 
   
  As far as why Amarra still wins in sound quality, it has the best bass impact and seems to go deeper.  Also mids seems just little bit richer than the rest.


----------



## dallan

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> So I gave up on Amarra again.  I couldn't get gapless to work right.  Think it has to do with my tracks ripped using XLD into ALAC.


 
  I ripped with XLD, and if i really listen closely i could make out the gap when i was using the preload, but I am too impatient to preload most of the time anyway and end up half way thru a concert tape going to something different anyway.


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





iamoneagain said:


> Gotcha, I haven't tested the two against each other.  Yes, Bitperfection is exactly what you say it is.  I'm not sure my system with even show the benefits since I'm just using a toslink cable. Think he's made some other revisions over Bitfperfect as well.  I was part of the original beta program, so I'm still get the latest test builds.  I'll test the two programs against each other and see if can tell a difference.
> 
> Think you can get Audirvana Plus beta here but if you already used up your preview time, you might have to see if you can get reset to try this.  I bought the program, so I'm free to try the betas as well: http://audirvana.com/?p=304
> 
> As far as why Amarra still wins in sound quality, it has the best bass impact and seems to go deeper.  Also mids seems just little bit richer than the rest.


 
  I've still been reluctant to switch over to Lion (It screwed me over when first released)
  I'd really appreciate if you would compare the two. If it offers anything new I would be willing to try it out. Bitperfect has been really great so far.
  Just so simple and pretty flawless. but perhaps limited in function. Hope to see these things improved more.
  But looking at the headache Amarra poses, I think I should just be grateful. haha
   
  I bought Audirvana a while back not sure it's plus or whatever standard then. Might have to look for the key or just buy it again.
  But yea, I've found Amarra to offer the best fidelity just all around. I'm honestly looking for something better though (something that works)
  I've contemplated moving over to Windows with Foobar + wasapi, but being that I haven't used Windows in years don't know if it would 
  offer anything better or comparable...or even be worse.
   
  If you buy Audirvana Plus can you enter the beta free?


----------



## iamoneagain

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I ripped with XLD, and if i really listen closely i could make out the gap when i was using the preload, but I am too impatient to preload most of the time anyway and end up half way thru a concert tape going to something different anyway.


 
   
  Oh good, so issue is not just me.  It's not a huge issue but it's there and other players don't have it.  Gapless isn't needed just on live concert albums, I have plenty of other albums where 2 or more tracks run seamlessly into each other.  So was getting frustrated trying to figure out the fix for this in Amarra when I decided to check out the other players again.  But of course, Amarra always wins in sound quality, which I wish it didn't
   
  Oh, on quick listen Bitperfect and Bitperfection both sound the same in my setup.


----------



## dallan

About 95% of what i listen to is live concerts so i get it.  Luckily the songs are mostly pretty long or it would drive me nuts. I actually did the preload and playlist mode to check it out in my current concert but the first song is 15+ minutes and i am only 7 into it.


----------



## Silent One

Despite Amarra being new and improved with 33% more... whatever it is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, it continues to skip and trip. And I continue to put up with up. Quit several times yet, I keep coming back. I have a handful of OS X players and a handful of Linux audio players. Based on my config, Amarra continues to win me over on sound no matter how close!
   
  I'm hoping with the release of Mountain Lion and Sonic Studio's rewrite for it, that things improve... and quickly! No idea how much patience I've got in the tank.


----------



## dallan

Yeah, i just updated to snow leopard, originally they said to wait and i just never got around to updating until their new version of Amarra came out and min OS was Snow Leopard.  In addition you can't upgrade to mountain lion with out Snow Leopard or Lion.  So now i need to wait for Amarra before i do the next OS jump.....glad i was reminded of that here.


----------



## paradoxper

So are there suppose to be "significant" improvements for ML but not SL?


----------



## Silent One

Mountain Lion has been said by the developer of BitPerfect to be way better as an OS for audio than any other big cats before it. And will be worth getting (downloading).
   
  Currently, I have Lion & Snow Leopard on the Solid State Internal Drive. And Snow Leopard on the External Hard Drive. Amarra sounds a bit different on each.


----------



## iamoneagain

Damn, once I decided I could live with Amarra's minor bugs, a new major one pops up that I don't think i can take.  I have the preload off and will be listening to a track and it's fine but then the next track produces loud static.  Kind of kills the enjoyment of the music, so off to try the other programs again.  So far the only other program that I liked as much in my setup is Decibel from a sound point of view.  Hate that it's not integrated but give me great sound and perfect gapless playback.  It seems to capture the texture as well as Amarra does.  More organic sound.


----------



## sterling1

Lion? Snow Leopard? Sounds like cub scouts, you know, Wolf, Lion, and Bear. Boy, that was a long, long time ago. At any rate, I've got Windows 7 on my Dell Inspiron 14, and, running iTunes, I could not be happier. It sounds great without any sort of add-on.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





sterling1 said:


> Lion? Snow Leopard? Sounds like cub scouts, you know, Wolf, Lion, and Bear. Boy, that was a long, long time ago. At any rate, I've got Windows 7 on my Dell Inspiron 14, and, running iTunes, I could not be happier. It sounds great without any sort of add-on.


 
   
  Have you given JRiver Media Center a run?


----------



## mink70

Have been using Amarra 2.34 for a couple of months, enjoying the richness, and yesterday installed 2.4. Absolutely hated the difference. 2.4 sounded as though it had a wider stage, less bass, less richness, and a low treble spotlight that sounded really annoying with my Stax 202 and kind of, I don't know... cheap. Just reinstalled the older software and much happier with the darker, richer sound. Anyone have the same experience, or am I losing my hearing?


----------



## Silent One

I had a similar reaction as you described. The new version sounded a bit more kicked-up in someways...a bit too much when heard on Lion. SL reigns this madness in some but cannot save the tonal character of the new version. 
   
  I'm reminded of cooking - one tries to spice things up and ends up throwing the dish out of balance. Of course, some may or may not be affected in the same way, as usual all of this is system dependent.


----------



## mink70

Quote: 





silent one said:


> I had a similar reaction as you described. The new version sounded a bit more kicked-up in someways...a bit too much when heard on Lion. SL reigns this madness in some but cannot save the tonal character of the new version.
> 
> I'm reminded of cooking - one tries to spice things up and ends up throwing the dish out of balance. Of course, some may or may not be affected in the same way, as usual all of this is system dependent.


 
   
  It's as though they wanted to tilt up the slightly dark sound and make it sound more "transparent" and "sparkly." But I agree—to my ears, they overdid it and made it sound pretty jacked up and fatiguing. Though the wider stage and separation is nice. But the tonal balance, for me, is dog****. Using it with SL.


----------



## Silent One

Looking back, I am glad I held on to SL. I just happened to buy a new internal solid state drive at the time. And simply moved the internal HDD to an external enclosure, everything intact. Then later, brought kitty back inside to play along with Lion. 
   
  Amarra versions aside, something seems off about the OS itself (Lion). It was cooked up to bring out the best in iTunes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But surely, developers had ample opportunity to make their players swing with the new cat! I really am hoping ML is an advancement over L & SL!


----------



## sterling1

No, I have not yet tried JRiver Media Center. I've tried Media Monkey and Foobar. Initially, I thought Foobar sounded better but I did not think it was as versatile or intuitive as iTunes. Now, I'm also convinced it does not sound better but is just louder. At any rate does JRiver have a free trial program?


----------



## KevinWolff

Agreed, there's definitely something off about that cat Lion. I am hopeful, but don't expect much of a change in Mountain Lion. I have a feeling that SL will be the OS of choice for Amarra users for some time to come. I fear the Mac OS is more of an afterthought for Apple these days and IOS is still a long way from becoming the replacement OS we really need.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Looking back, I am glad I held on to SL. I just happened to buy a new internal solid state drive at the time. And simply moved the internal HDD to an external enclosure, everything intact. Then later, brought kitty back inside to play along with Lion.
> 
> Amarra versions aside, something seems off about the OS itself (Lion). It was cooked up to bring out the best in iTunes.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Agreed, there's definitely something off about that cat Lion. I am hopeful, but don't expect much of a change in Mountain Lion. I have a feeling that SL will be the OS of choice for Amarra users for some time to come. I fear the Mac OS is more of an afterthought for Apple these days and IOS is still a long way from becoming the replacement OS we really need.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
  The developer of the app BitPerfect (Tim) feels Mountain Lion is better for audio than either Lion or Snow Leopard. With Apple, their only concern is with iTunes and making money. They found all the activity from designers and users circumventing iTunes and manipulating Core Audio disturbing. And would like nothing more than to derail these efforts. It is my belief Lion was designed the way it was due to these activities.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





sterling1 said:


> No, I have not yet tried JRiver Media Center. I've tried Media Monkey and Foobar. Initially, I thought Foobar sounded better but I did not think it was as versatile or intuitive as iTunes. Now, I'm also convinced it does not sound better but is just louder. At any rate does JRiver have a free trial program?


 
   
  Yes.


----------



## KevinWolff

I hope Tim's right about Mountain LIon. Gonna try the GM in a couple days. Yeah, that sounds like Apple. And besides derailing the developers, they don't want people getting the crazy idea that they could be experiencing better sound simply by buying and ripping a cd into lossless that's roughly the same price as their compressed downloads.
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> The developer of the app BitPerfect (Tim) feels Mountain Lion is better for audio than either Lion or Snow Leopard. With Apple, their only concern is with iTunes and making money. They found all the activity from designers and users circumventing iTunes and manipulating Core Audio disturbing. And would like nothing more than to derail these efforts. It is my belief Lion was designed the way it was due to these activities.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Formerly in my system, Pure Music always led the pack of OS X players I had installed. Once I heard Amarra, I never looked back. This spring will be time for a complete evaluation.


 
   
  Pure Music guy here, reporting in on his first experience with Amarra, running the 2.4.1 demo with Snow Leopard. The interface is a bit weird and it's not as convenient as PM, but dang it, it really does sound better. I am experiencing zero playback issues, and the menus/dialogs are pretty intuitive so loading a playlist was relatively pain-free. It won't run on my "supplementary" macs, (Tiger, Leopard), but I think Amarra's license is single-machine anyways unless they changed that as well.
   
  I have resisted trying Amarra until now because I was afraid this would happen, looks like I will have to pay for this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I'm glad I waited though. The available options(s) seem to offer more value and less confusion than they used to.
   
  Pure Music has many more tweaks available, will run on older OS's, and will let you do three installs, and works much better with iTunes and (I'm guessing here from what I have read) handles FLAC files much better.
  Too bad it doesn't sound quite as good as Amarra 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Mountain Lion has been said by the developer of BitPerfect to be way better as an OS for audio than any other big cats before it. And will be worth getting (downloading).
> 
> Currently, I have Lion & Snow Leopard on the Solid State Internal Drive. And Snow Leopard on the External Hard Drive. Amarra sounds a bit different on each.


 
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> The developer of the app BitPerfect (Tim) feels Mountain Lion is better for audio than either Lion or Snow Leopard. With Apple, their only concern is with iTunes and making money. They found all the activity from designers and users circumventing iTunes and manipulating Core Audio disturbing. And would like nothing more than to derail these efforts. It is my belief Lion was designed the way it was due to these activities.


 
   
  Looks like I'll be skipping Lion anyways, pfft to that. But I probably won't feel the need to upgrade from SL unless I get another iOS device. If I still had an iPad I would already be there but I don't so I'm not.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Your move was great to hear! If I'm fortunate, the new kitty will be offered some milk and the sofa in about 10 days. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can't quite put my finger (ear?) on Sonic Studio's secret sauce. But while my other OS X players and Linux players sound good, Amarra sounds a bit more effortless and engaging. 
   
  And by all means, this isn't huge over the other players. What really makes the differences stand out to me is time - over time this preference looms much larger. Be it an 8 hour session vs a playlist of 8 favs. Or even 8 weeks vs 8 days. It just seems the longer the timeline, the more appreciation I have for Amarra's sound. Unfortunately, it still has issues but remains my #1 audio player for now.


----------



## grokit

One cool thing about Amarra is I would be listening to whole albums more, because of the pre-load limitation.
   
  But if I want to put all 11,000 songs or so on random play I will have to go back to PM. I really like to do that when I'm in the mood for "discovery".
   
  Talk about a first-world problem!


----------



## Silent One

Yeah, the whole concept of music on tap (HDD/Music Server) has us sometimes skimming cream off the top. Where listening to whole works of a group or singer can allow us to get deeper into what their message is. I rarely listen to vinyl directly, but a few weeks ago I did just that. I felt like Jack-in-the-Box! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No sooner than I got comfortable,  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Side A/B needed my attention. This one-time ceremony use to be automatic...until computer audio found its way into my listening room.
   
  Maybe deep into autumn when the weather cools, a Gaiwan full of delicate green tea could help smooth the activity of changing records.


----------



## pigmode

We will see how Sonic Studio handles software compatibility with the impending release of Mountain Lion. I'm much less likely to delay upgrading my Apple system as I had done with Snow Leopard to Lion--all for the sloth of one application (Amarra). Their new product line marketing may very well indicate an increased desire to maintaining Amarra, but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## dallan

I on the other hand will definitely wait for the Mountain Lion bugs to work themselves out as happens with new releases and wait for Amarra to adapt in the mean time.  My computer is used for work and surfing the net but music is probably the biggest use and that is tied to the best sound i have found, and that is Amarra.  I have suffered from fatigue in the past and Amarra helped with it dramatically, so i am not going back.


----------



## pigmode

I'll also wait for the .x Mountain Lion update that seems to give the level of stability I want. Sonic Studio still needs to step up to the plate.


----------



## noris83

So has anyone tried Amarra 2.4 or 2.4.1 with the 10.8 GM?


----------



## Silent One

Mountain Lion --
   
  Me? Wait?! I've got a bowl of milk right here for kitty! Gonna roll with the release, bugs and all...


----------



## KevinWolff

Just tested the new cat gm with 2.2.3, It's no different than lion. Moreover, itunes alone in ML as compared to itunes alone in SL, is lacking. The bass is weaker, the soundstage is further off, not wider in a good way. I used my usual test tracks, Springsteen's Point Blank intro and Rush's YYZ (hdtracks). I can't speak for the overall sound, since the bass is the make or break issue with me. 
   
  The culprit still seems to be core audio in mac os x. Maybe it will be different when someone tests 2.4, but my first impression is that snow kitty is still king of the mountain.


----------



## Swatcsi

Finding 2.4.1 way way more responsive than 2.3.3, I actually don't mind using it now


----------



## grokit

It sounds like there is all the more reason to stay with Snow Leopard for now


----------



## Silent One

For me, even if Lion had delivered as promised, I would have kept SL on a separate drive as Plan B. Updates mid program can be sneaky.


----------



## grokit

I can't figure out how to upsample with Amarra without the music being sped up to sound like chipmunks


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





silent one said:


> For me, even if Lion had delivered as promised, I would have kept SL on a separate drive as Plan B. Updates mid program can be sneaky.


 
    The good news is ML *should* be a refinement of Lion, and less of a jump than SL > L.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Does anyone know if 2.4.1. was written with Mountain Lion in mind or will we have to wait a few months for this release?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I can't figure out how to upsample with Amarra without the music being sped up to sound like chipmunks


 
   





 Support so soon? Let us know what they say...


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Just tested the new cat gm with 2.2.3, It's no different than lion. Moreover, itunes alone in ML as compared to itunes alone in SL, is lacking. The bass is weaker, the soundstage is further off, not wider in a good way. I used my usual test tracks, Springsteen's Point Blank intro and Rush's YYZ (hdtracks). I can't speak for the overall sound, since the bass is the make or break issue with me.
> 
> The culprit still seems to be core audio in mac os x. Maybe it will be different when someone tests 2.4, but my first impression is that snow kitty is still king of the mountain.


 
   





 What an indictment! I best refresh snow kitty's bowl of milk; let her watch whatever she likes on the tellie.


----------



## KevinWolff

I really wanted ML to be my new pet cat, I really did. I had decided prior to testing that even if it was close and not perfect, I'd adopt it. As it turned out, I couldn't kick it down the mountain fast enough. It let out a loud screech on the way down, which consequently, was lacking in bass and tonal richness. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  But seriously, I'm going to try it again later with the latest version of Amarra.
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> What an indictment! I best refresh snow kitty's bowl of milk; let her watch whatever she likes on the tellie.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> I really wanted ML to be my new pet cat, I really did. I had decided prior to testing that even if it was close and not perfect, I'd adopt it. As it turned out, I couldn't kick it down the mountain fast enough. It let out a loud screech on the way down, which consequently, was lacking in bass and tonal richness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Each time I try a new program, accessory or tweak, caution falls over the listening room - _keep your grubby lil' hands...off...my...Bass! _


----------



## KevinWolff

Waaaaaait a minute....things are different with 2.4.1. It's not as bad as Lion after all. It's still different than SL but not as much as I thought last night. I'm getting more bass punch than with Lion, it's still different than SL, but not a deal breaker like I thought with Lion. In fact I'm hearing some stuff I don't hear with SL in the mid bass. I now think that everyone who's on SL should give it an A/B, and that Lion sufferers may indeed see some relief. It still has a slightly wider soundstage, but depending on your gear this could be a good thing, or even not noticeable.
  I still can't say I like it better than SL, but for the first time in a long time there's hope.
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> Each time I try a new program, accessory or tweak, caution falls over the listening room - _keep your grubby lil' hands...off...my...Bass! _


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Waaaaaait a minute....things are different with 2.4.1. It's not as bad as Lion after all. It's still different than SL but not as much as I thought last night. I'm getting more bass punch than with Lion, it's still different than SL, but not a deal breaker like I thought with Lion. In fact I'm hearing some stuff I don't hear with SL in the mid bass. I now think that everyone who's on SL should give it an A/B, and that Lion sufferers may indeed see some relief. It still has a slightly wider soundstage, but depending on your gear this could be a good thing, or even not noticeable.
> I still can't say I like it better than SL, but for the first time in a long time there's hope.
> Quote:
> 
> ...


 
   
  You'll likely need to spend a minimum of 21 days to domesticate your new kitty. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's good that you, me and others continue to suggest people actually spend the time and listen. And listen to different configs, because each change made in our system may have us leaning this way or that with a particular version. Front-end; Source; Amp; Cables; Drives,OS; Surfaces; Footers and so on...
   
  Obviously, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 these are my views.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





grokit said:


> I can't figure out how to upsample with Amarra without the music being sped up to sound like chipmunks


 
   
  Amarra doesn't have any means to up-sample on playback and never has as far as I know. The only thing they offer is to pre-convert tracks to different sample rates.


----------



## Silent One

I am curious as to how this is being done...




   
  grokit, what you could do is use something like Sample Rate Manager (iZotope). Export & save files first to 24-bit. Then upsample the saved files to your rate and liking.
   
http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/samplemanager/


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Just demo'ing it for now, no support...
   
   
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I was just thinking along those lines, that maybe the "Audio Device Preferences" setting is to just for playing existing higher bit-rate files and not for actually upsampling them, which is a feature that Pure Music offers (playback software upsampling).
   
   
  Quote: 





silent one said:


> I am curious as to how this is being done...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Or just continue on with Pure Music for now, where I have been upsampling my 44.1 files to 96k (and this is only because of the 96k limitation of my preferred spdif converter). Not that there's any good reason to do so, and not that Amarra's 24-bit 44.1k playback doesn't sound great. I'm glad that I'm trying Amarra finally but I'm not sure I'm convinced that it's $200 better than Pure Music, for me, at this point in time. It sounds fantastic but so does PM.
   
  Sample Manager looks like a great program as well, thanks!
   
  edit: I am able to run both PM and Amarra at the same time, interestingly. I just switch between the Channel D driver and my spdif converter in Sound Preferences, then reset the appropriate playback program, while alternating between iTunes/PM and Amarra playlists for playback.


----------



## Silent One

@ grokit
   
  PM sent!


----------



## ArcAngel66

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Just demo'ing it for now, no support...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Audio Device Preferences lets you route difference outputs on your devices. If you uncheck the "Follow Core Audio" option, you can also use the Audio Device Preferences to set Amarra's output to any device you want (it normally just looks to your Audio Midi settings and mirrors them).
   
  I think the selection for bit-rate in the Audio Device Preferences is only "relevant" when you have unchecked the "Follow Core Audio" option, as Amarra is no longer looking at the Audio Midi settings.
   
   
  But one thing is certain, Amarra does not upsample music. It does not resample music for that matter, either (aside from the Sample Manager tool). It always sets your DAC to the sample rate of the song it's playing. It's a glorified sample-rate switcher  I'm pretty sure this makes any setting of bit-rate (44.1k, 96k, etc) completely pointless. To see what I mean, play a 96k song and while it's playing open Audio Midi, you'll see the settings at 96k. Then play a 44.1k song, and open Audio Midi again - you'll see Amarra has changed the settings. You can't change this behavior - it's what Amarra does.
   
   
  Oh btw, Amarra isn't quite $200 more than Pure Music anymore. Amarra is something like $189 now, which is now closer to Pure Music's $129.
   
  I really liked Pure Music when I tried it. It was very hassle-free and simply just worked. But for some reason, I find Amarra to sound more analog/natural (less digital-like), and I think Amarra has an uncanny soundstage in terms of accuracy and size. Amarra has definitely brought some frustration though - small little bugs that take forever to be addressed. But with the last few releases, Amarra has made really huge steps towards a better user experience and becoming far more bug-free.
   
   
  Lastly, I think the only time you can't run multiple programs at a time is when one is using a "Hog Mode." I think Fidelia has this option, and if I remember from my short time with Pure Music, it has something like that too. Amarra doesn't have a Hog Mode. I wonder what happens if you try to run both again, but this time with the Pure Music HOG mode on - I'm guessing things wont play so nice, haha.


----------



## coolguyalex

Bought Amarra Hifi a few weeks ago. The interface is far superior to that of Pure Music and the sound is noticeably better on most tracks. Only problem is that it crashes a lot, anyone else having this problem? I'm guessing it is due to having too many programs running, which it advises against..


----------



## noris83

I don't have any issues with Amarra crashing. It did skip a lot when I used a network drive to store music. Switched to an attached usb drive and have almost no issues now.


----------



## pigmode

^ I've had skipping and other static-like issues with earlier versions, completely solved by replacing Safari with Chrome (used in background).

2.4.x Symphony crashes every time while loading in Playlist mode. Am happy with iTunes integration.


----------



## KevinWolff

Thanks for this tip! This drives me crazy. I never imagined it was the browser causing it.
  Quote: 





pigmode said:


> ^ I've had skipping and other static-like issues with earlier versions, completely solved by replacing Safari with Chrome (used in background).


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





arcangel66 said:


> Oh btw, Amarra isn't quite $200 more than Pure Music anymore. Amarra is something like $189 now, which is now closer to Pure Music's $129.


 
    
  I just meant another $200 to me, as I already own PM.

   
  Quote:


coolguyalex said:


> Bought Amarra Hifi a few weeks ago. The interface is far superior to that of Pure Music and the sound is noticeably better on most tracks. Only problem is that it crashes a lot, anyone else having this problem? I'm guessing it is due to having too many programs running, which it advises against..


 
   
  Not sure how much better the interface is when you have to use a separate playlist, but different priorities I suppose. They definitely have _different_ interfaces.
   
   
  Quote: 





kevinwolff said:


> Thanks for this tip! This drives me crazy. I never imagined it was the browser causing it.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I use Firefox, and just switched back to PM from Amarra because of the static thing. I think it only happens when my DAC is in attenuated mode (not outputting full voltage), I will check.


----------



## KevinWolff

I fit this criteria too. I keep my D1 at 82, not at full 99 vol. so that I can at least get to 9-9:30 on the peak/volcano volume. 
  Quote: 





> I use Firefox, and just switched back to PM from Amarra because of the static thing. I think it only happens when my DAC is in attenuated mode (not outputting full voltage), I will check.


----------



## pigmode

I'd never have problems with the Anedio D1 (with Chrome in background), and I used its digital vol. almost exclusively. Of course it could have been causing the issues in the first place.


----------



## KevinWolff

I'm going to have to try chrome since I don't like keeping the d1 at 99, Thanks!
  Quote: 





pigmode said:


> I'd never have problems with the Anedio D1 (with Chrome in background), and I used its digital vol. almost exclusively. Of course it could have been causing the issues in the first place.


----------



## grokit

I'm happy to report that my static issue was evidently all headphone-related (loose HE6 connector), no problems with Amarra besides the fact that it can "wake up cranky" sometimes. Very different than PM in more than just sound quality.


----------



## Silent One

Pulled down Mountain Lion early this morning (0545 hrs). Only spent an hour perusing tracks with Amarra 2.4. Looking forward to tonight's listening session for deeper impressions. But early indications suggest:
   
  - 'ML' sounds better than' L' sonically out the gate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  - Amarra sounds like it's playing back a bit too fast! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Homework @ 2300 hours!


----------



## pigmode

^ Keep us updated.


----------



## bixby

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Pulled down Mountain Lion early this morning (0545 hrs). Only spent an hour perusing tracks with Amarra 2.4. Looking forward to tonight's listening session for deeper impressions. But early indications suggest:
> 
> - 'ML' sounds better than' L' sonically out the gate.
> 
> ...


 
  Interesting my friend also concurs that ML is much better sonically than Lion or Snow Leopard with Audirvana Plus in Direct and Integer mode.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





bixby said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I needn't strain to hear the difference either. Walking along the audio path, low level detail and a change in tone just casually began to unfold before me. Will examine kitty for the usual suspects later tonight; tomorrow. You know, Speed, Timbre, Detail, Depth, Separation, Sound stage and so on...


----------



## paradoxper

Quote: 





silent one said:


> I needn't strain to hear the difference either. Walking along the audio path, low level detail and a change in tone just casually began to unfold before me. Will examine kitty for the usual suspects later tonight; tomorrow. You know, Speed, Timbre, Detail, Depth, Separation, Sound stage and so on...


 
  I guess you're saying it's safe to upgrade now...


----------



## bixby

I'm more of a late adopter.  I let me friend discover the bugs and then follow along 6 months or so later.  Heck, I still  don't even have a solid state drive in my mini.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





bixby said:


> I'm more of a late adopter.  I let me friend discover the bugs and then follow along 6 months or so later.  Heck, I still  don't even have a solid state drive in my mini.


 
   
  SSD - _Speed kills..._


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





paradoxper said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. But since I'm using the Mac as a music server, other bumps in the road are minor, if at all noticed.


----------



## iamoneagain

I upgraded to Mountain Lion and Amarra seems to be working the same as before, which means the little bugs are still there.  Like how some tracks start a fraction of second late.  As far as sound quality, it seems like it's improved but hard to tell since I don't have Lion to test against.  I'll quickly tested against BitPerfect and Audirvana +, and Amarra still wins.


----------



## pigmode

^ How much memory have you assigned to Amarra? If not at least 2 GB, perhaps give it a try?


----------



## Silent One

On my way out the door - cycling. But not before I chime in with 4 GB memory assigned to Amarra. Their rule of thumb is to use 50% of what you've got on the computer.
   
  But for the record, none of the amounts of memory assigned prevents Amarra from losing its mind. My Mac mini music server is naked as a Jay bird! Outside of music programs, ain't a whole lot there in software with most services turned off.




   
  Granted, there has been some improvement but it still acts up. And none of my other OS X players, Windows or Linux players ever stumbles. Instead of patchwork repair, an overhaul seems to be in order. It's likely something at the very core of the program from the very beginning of their design that's keeping this audio player from delivering a world class performance. Not that is doesn't sound great but the experience is lessened. 
   
  One more thing, I will say that under Mountain Lion, Amarra is quicker, more responsive to track changes in either Playlist mode of iTunes/Amarra mode. Still get hit with delays though, but not always. BTW, I use Cache mode when possible.


----------



## grokit

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. But since I'm using the Mac as a music server, other bumps in the road are minor, if at all noticed.


 
   
  Hehe I just got a Mini server to use as a Mac. And a PC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Off topic:


Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!



 
  It comes with Lion (not sure if the server edition is a different cat from the same liter or included in the regular OS now), and I qualified for Mt Lion update. But I will probably just install my retail copy of Snow Leopard, for now and for a variety of reasons. I will save the Mt. Lion update as a disk image to use later (like when Dreamweaver gets updated for example) but it's only $19 so whatever.
   
  On the PC side I was able to re-license AstoundSound for Windows as I stopped using it on the Mac side with Amarra and Pure Music available. Plus I will be watching ripped videos on the Windows side so AstoundSound's cinema mode will be fun. Music and video for both sides will come in via Firewire, unless I spurge for a Thunderbolt dock with an ESATA port for my Drobo.
   
  Even more OT, my plan is to partition both HDD's, booting off an OS on part of one while doing auto-backup (time machine and the W7 equivalent) on part of the other one.
  Fingers crossed


----------



## pigmode

I'm on 2.4.1 Symphony and other than the recent loss of playlist mode, and the aforementioned problems with Safari (used in the background) solved by switching to Chrome, have not had any issues whatsoever. That on my primary and only computer, an early 2011 MacBookPro, 10.7.4. Have not found any differences with 2-4 GB memory.


----------



## bixby

Quote: 





silent one said:


> On my way out the door - cycling. But not before I chime in with 4 GB memory assigned to Amarra. Their rule of thumb is to use 50% of what you've got on the computer.
> 
> But for the record, none of the amounts of memory assigned prevents Amarra from losing its mind. My Mac mini music server is naked as a Jay bird! Outside of music programs, ain't a whole lot there in software with most services turned off.
> 
> ...


 
  Did you go all the way crazy and remove all the language packs?  My friend made me do it.  And are you using an SSD?  Yes speed is good, but no spinning disk is even better!


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   




   
  However, never put off 'till tomorrow what you could do today. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 New OS X, anyone?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





bixby said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Currently in-session with Big Joe Turner, Live At Monterey...
   
  I was removing programs like Governor Brown! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Love my SSD with the HDD outside via FireWire. May look to get a mini 2012 model. The 2011 model is a step up audio wise from the 2010. It's  fast approaching August, so I'll just skip the '11 model.


----------



## Silent One

Amarra update:
   
  Four restarts did not resolve the issue of v2.4 playing too fast. It took uninstalling/re-installing and that got me back on track. To confirm my initial suspicions, I played the same track on Pure Music and Audirvana. Also, played it on an earlier version of Amarra (v2.3). I have the fortune of using my neighbor's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mac mini with Amarra on SL and the earlier v2.3. Yup, I simply walk down his driveway and up mine, mini tucked at my side.Though, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sometimes I carry my own around the library like a Pizza! I use to take the mini there to preview CD's - my 17" Desktop replacement was heavier though it was a notebook.
   
  Anyway...
   
  A quick run through tonight shows my early preference as follows:  Mountain Lion/Amarra 2.3 (4344)


----------



## grokit

Quote:  





> May look to get a mini 2012 model. The 2011 model is a step up audio wise from the 2010. It's  fast approaching August, so I'll just skip the '11 model.


 
   
  Ah well the time was now for me. I want to get rid of the Mac Pro well before Applecare runs out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  But I changed my order and got the non-server because of the graphics card and better clock speed. Sucked it up for the i7 with the better HDD.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





grokit said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
_You'll be just fine._


----------



## dallan

Just for the record i emailed Sonic Studios with the question of Mountain Lion.  The response explained that there could be a problem installing it and how to fix the problem.
   
  At the end of the email response it said this:
   
   
_[size=small]"Sonic feels, however, that further testing of its products running with Mountain Lion is required to verify compatibility and determine whether there are any effects on sound quality as a result of the upgrade to Mountain Lion. Until further notice:[/size]
 [size=small]Sonic recommends that all users consider deferring installation of Mountain Lion."[/size]_
   
   
  [size=x-small]So this also happened when Snow Leopard came out and the reason that i never upgraded until just recently.  I am sure they will get Amarra up to speed with another version update that addresses ML.[/size]


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





dallan said:


> Just for the record i emailed Sonic Studios with the question of Mountain Lion.  The response explained that there could be a problem installing it and how to fix the problem.
> 
> At the end of the email response it said this:
> 
> ...


 
  This is easy to do since my venerable Mid 2007 Mac Mini is not upgradeable to ML....Looks like it has reached the end of Apples road for OS upgrades. Nice and stable with Lion and Amarra!


----------



## Silent One

Audio on Mountain Lion with Amarra continues to bring me delight! Hour number 8 and rolling..._sunrise or bust!_


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Audio on Mountain Lion with Amarra continues to bring me delight! Hour number 8 and rolling..._sunrise or bust!_


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yup, changed my mind. We're gonna make 'till sunrise! Now in-session with Grover Washington, Jr - "Mister Magic."


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





silent one said:


> Yup, changed my mind. We're gonna make 'till sunrise! Now in-session with Grover Washington, Jr - "Mister Magic."


 
  How about a little "Winelight" next?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Then I'd never get to bed - behind schedule as it is.


----------



## pigmode

Any updates on Amarra and the new iTunes 10.7 update with Mountain Lion?
   
  Hopefully not any worse than the 2.4.x update I have that cuts out the beginning of tracks, first on Lion and continuing with ML.


----------



## pigmode

Used the new iTunes update for a couple of hr and it seems okay. Still it took Amarra 2.4.x six weeks to go fubar on me.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I am using iTunes 10.7 with OSX 10.8 Mountain Lion and Amarra 2.40 without issues.  I've been reluctant to upgrade Amarra because I don't want anything to break right now.  I'm listening right now as I surf the web in Safari, on a retina Macbook Pro, with no skips or issues.
   
  However, when I launched Amarra my Time Machine backup over the network failed and the disk can't be used because "another process is using it", so I have to reboot now.  I can't see how that is related, other than it happened at the same time as launch, and never happened before.


----------



## One and a half

Newbie to Head-Fi, hello to all!
   
  Like others I held off Amarra for a while, but with Lion decided to give the player a run...there were problems, no gapless in iTunes, skipping, oh dear, but the sound quality was bar none, Pure Music is a close second, but others have said, Amarra engages, there's no mistaking.
  With Mountain Lion though on a fresh install with only music apps on 2010 MBP SSD 6GB RAM, Amarra 2.4.1 worked like a treat. Gapless was true to form, and yes 50% of RAM should be allocated to memory play.
  Sometimes though, the sample rate switching goofs up, but this has some interaction with Audirvana + perhaps not closing properly, Audio Midi takes a while for the DAC to settle to a different rate if set manually is a sympton of the fs goofing up. If Audirvana doesn't play from a fresh boot, Amarra is fine for hours on end.
  Now running Symphony with the meters, as to the SQ between $189 Amarra difficult to quantify, but worth the effort for two licenses which I need.  
   
  My wish is for Sonic Studio to  get behind DSD using DoP or on the fly conversion for PCM only DACs. One day.  Playing DSD would overcome a lot of messy sample rate switching and different PCM formats we have now.


----------



## coolguyalex

Is the Amarra 2.4.2 update not working for anyone else?


----------



## mrenvy

After upgrading to 2.4.2, I got no sound after playing one or two tracks.


----------



## Silent One

I downloaded 2.4.2 last hour - without incident. Still listening...


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

headphoneaddict said:


> I am using iTunes 10.7 with OSX 10.8 Mountain Lion and Amarra 2.40 without issues.  I've been reluctant to upgrade Amarra because I don't want anything to break right now.  I'm listening right now as I surf the web in Safari, on a retina Macbook Pro, with no skips or issues.
> 
> However, when I launched Amarra my Time Machine backup over the network failed and the disk can't be used because "another process is using it", so I have to reboot now.  I can't see how that is related, other than it happened at the same time as launch, and never happened before.




Note, this backup issue wasn't due to Amarra - it seems my LaCie LaPlug is a little buggy at times.


----------



## pigmode

Will hold off upgrading to 2.4.2 until I verify satisfactory happiness with one of my alternate players. Fool me once...


----------



## spahn_ranch

Can y'all load music files from internal storage to Amarra?
   
  I've tried all the formats, plain jane file names. Amarra will only load them from external storage, not my internal hard drive.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





spahn_ranch said:


> Can y'all load music files from internal storage to Amarra?
> 
> I've tried all the formats, plain jane file names. Amarra will only load them from external storage, not my internal hard drive.


 
  Where do you have your iTunes library pointed to in iTunes setup?


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





spahn_ranch said:


> Can y'all load music files from internal storage to Amarra?
> 
> I've tried all the formats, plain jane file names. Amarra will only load them from external storage, not my internal hard drive.


 
   
  Both, no problem. When you're using the add option in Amarra to load more tracks, are they greyed out?


----------



## spahn_ranch

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> Where do you have your iTunes library pointed to in iTunes setup?


 

 Last time I used iTunes, it pointed to an external harddrive, but I've since tried pointing it to the internal drive, which works as expected with iTunes, although not with Amarra. Loading from internal to Amarra works neither in conjunction with iTunes, nor as a standalone player, regardless of where I point the iTunes library to.
   
  With Amarra >> 'OPEN', the files on the internal are greyed out, and I can't drag and drop them either. What does work is loading files from _any_ external storage, including SD cards.
   
  Ideally, I would keep a favourite collection on the internal drive, if Amarra would load and play them. Then I'd get a big SSD. Plan b is a smaller SSD and a favourite collection on a 128GB SDXC. The big SSD solution is more storage for the money, and of course slightly more convenient. But, I'm not using any other player than Amarra, so I guess it's fair to call convenience negotioable.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





spahn_ranch said:


> Last time I used iTunes, it pointed to an external harddrive, but I've since tried pointing it to the internal drive, which works as expected with iTunes, although not with Amarra. Loading from internal to Amarra works neither in conjunction with iTunes, nor as a standalone player, regardless of where I point the iTunes library to.
> 
> With Amarra >> 'OPEN', the files on the internal are greyed out, and I can't drag and drop them either. What does work is loading files from _any_ external storage, including SD cards.
> 
> Ideally, I would keep a favourite collection on the internal drive, if Amarra would load and play them. Then I'd get a big SSD. Plan b is a smaller SSD and a favourite collection on a 128GB SDXC. The big SSD solution is more storage for the money, and of course slightly more convenient. But, I'm not using any other player than Amarra, so I guess it's fair to call convenience negotioable.


 
   
  You could also create an Amarra playlist of all the iTunes local files.....


----------



## spahn_ranch

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> You could also create an Amarra playlist of all the iTunes local files.....


 

 Thanks for the input, guys. I don't think I catch what you mean, in case it would work...
   
  I can't add any local files at all to Ammara, whether or not the iTunes library is pointed to them. So... I can't make an Amarra playlist of them.


----------



## longbowbbs

http://www.sonicstudio.com/pdf/amarra/Amarra_242_User_Manual.pdf
   
  Try the manual....


----------



## mink70

I'm wondering whether anyone can weigh in on a strange issue. I'm listening to Amarra 2.4.1 from a MacBook Pro with 4G RAM outputting to a newly acquired (used) MHDT Havana tube DAC. I have to admit that I can't figure out what's happening. Fact is, it's sounding different from day to day. When I first listened to it  a week ago, from a Mac over USB, it sounded kind of edgy and still wiry in the treble. After a few days, the sound changed to the point where it began to sound very soft, with rolled off treble, reduced dynamics and detail. I figured that the new tube had burned in, but a day later the DAC was sounding forward and big again, with an edgy treble. NOTHING else had changed. This has been the story all along. Some days the Havana sounds lush and lovely, others it's edgy and harsh—even when nothing else has changed. Then I got a message in Amarra, after a few hours of playing, that I was running out of memory. No other apps were open. 2 gigs were allotted to memory play. I'm trying to figure out whether the DAC or Amarra/Mac are causing this. I know this sounds weird. Has anyone experienced anything like this?


----------



## longbowbbs

I have not had that problem. I am running Amarra on a Mac Mini dedicated only to Amarra. Perhaps that is why I have not run out of memory,


----------



## One and a half

If the files are greyed out,sounds like a permission issue. Try copying just a few alac/wav/flac to another folder, say under documents, and open Amarra in playlist mode.


----------



## pigmode

2.4.2 is working fine on 10.8.2, currently sans the new ML supplemental update. The gapless playback issues I had with 2.4.1 is not present at this time.


----------



## longbowbbs

2.4.2 is working fine on both the MBPro and MacMini with both 10.7.6 (Mini can't do ML upgrade) and 10.8.2 on the MBPro....


----------



## pigmode

2.4.2 has started turning to zero both volume controls on start up in Amarra/iTunes, while popping up a box asking if I want both turned on to max. This I can live with. Haven't tried playlist play, which 2.4.1 broke on my system.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> 2.4.2 is working fine on both the MBPro and MacMini with both 10.7.6 (Mini can't do ML upgrade) and 10.8.2 on the MBPro....


 
   
  I do not understand what is meant by mini can't do ML upgrade. Awaiting your assist.


----------



## longbowbbs

I have a mid 2007 Mac Mini. Apple will not support installing Mountain Lion (ML) on a Mac that old. So I have to stay with Lion as its final OS. No worries. Lion works fine and Amarra is happy. It is the only installed software on the Mini other than stock OS programs like iTunes.


----------



## lmf22

Quote: 





pigmode said:


> 2.4.2 has started turning to zero both volume controls on start up in Amarra/iTunes, while popping up a box asking if I want both turned on to max. This I can live with. Haven't tried playlist play, which 2.4.1 broke on my system.


 
  Me and others are also experiencing the same problems.  Check here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/sonic-studio-releases-version-2-4-2-amarra-and-amarra-hifi-13404/index3.html#post181554
  Despite little problems like this I still think Amarra sounds.  I can put up with small annoyances like this.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> I have a mid 2007 Mac Mini. Apple will not support installing Mountain Lion (ML) on a Mac that old. So I have to stay with Lion as its final OS. No worries. Lion works fine and Amarra is happy. It is the only installed software on the Mini other than stock OS programs like iTunes.


 
   
  Thanks, longbowbbs. It never occurred to me you were dealing with "legacy." Which it seems, Apple is making shorter and shorter product lives -_ "Turn 'em over, Johnny...next!" _As someone with a mid-year 2010 Mac mini and Amarra, I feel SL & ML are better for audio than the kitty in the middle (Lion).


----------



## longbowbbs

I try and get my money's worth..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I have over 200,000 miles on my Prius too...
   
  I appreciate what Apple does. One of my PC frustrations is the legacy code getting in the way. MS tries to keep everyone happy and never let something expire. Doesn't seem to be as stable over time. The tradeoff is buying new gear every few years. 
   
  As to Lion and Amarra, I don't think it matters much if the Mini is a dedicated music server. I followed the Amarra users manual guidelines and it has been a solid combination.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> I try and get my money's worth..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
_Everything matters. _Not too late for a rewrite, is it? My 2010 Mac mini dedicated music server. Tweaked with little on it and stuffed turned off/shut down. I have Lion & Snow Leopard on another Drive. 
   
  My opinion isn't limited to Amarra and Lion. Rather, I'm indicting Lion with_ "Insert your go-to music player here." _Other's mileage may vary, whether pushing Macs or 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Toyotas down the street.


----------



## longbowbbs

Gotcha!  Fortunately, I have had a smooth ride with lion (and the Toyota!)  It gets better this week as my CSP2+ arrives and I can go Emeril all over my hi rez collection....BAM!


----------



## omasciarotte

Quote: 





mink70 said:


> I'm wondering whether anyone can weigh in on a strange issue. I'm listening to Amarra 2.4.1 from a MacBook Pro with 4G RAM outputting to a newly acquired (used) MHDT Havana tube DAC. I have to admit that I can't figure out what's happening. Fact is, it's sounding different from day to day...Has anyone experienced anything like this?


 
   

 Hey mink70,
   
  Have not heard of the described behavior but, you may want to reduce the number of variables to troubleshoot the problem. Eliminate Amarra and the DAC, and start with iTunes in bit-perfect mode, your old DAC or BIA (built-in audio), and your normal playback chain. Since the behavior seems severe enough, you should be able to tell in just a few seconds whether it's happening or not. Then, one factor at a time, swap out ONE SINGLE COMPONENT in the chain until you locate the source of the problem. Components include software, DAC, amp, cans/speaks, cable, pre, anything that's part of the playback chain.
   
  With a hefty bit of patience and very methodical swapping, you will find the problem. Unfortunately, since the problem is intermittent, it may take a while to localize the culprit.


----------



## longbowbbs

^^
   
  Second on this....Rebuild the chain one piece at a time and isolate the trouble,,,,,


----------



## Silent One

In what could be called an engaged listening session - sunset to sunrise overnight - I decided to tip across the street..._under a cover of darkness_. That, I did not successfully negotiate crossing in a straight line, resulted in the lone alley cat tracking my every move. Better it than the LAPD. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Anyway, Thursday night, I installed a trio of big brass footers under my Mac mini music server - 3"x3" @ 6 lbs each, which sit atop an 18 lb Maple platform. Prior to this tweak, I preferred Amarra 2.3(4344) on Mountain Lion. In the middle of the session, Audirvana Plus w/Direct mode; Integer mode took over the #1 slot. 
   
  The great thing about having cafes located on opposing corners is choice. When I decide Amarra is once again serving a tea I'd like to enjoy, I'll simply tip back across the street. Or, go back and forth as my mood and music library calls for.


----------



## longbowbbs

I appreciate that. I have the cafe JRiver right next door filled with lossless .WAV ready to serve....


----------



## Silent One

As someone with an open mind, I'll have a look at JRiver's port for OS X when it's ready...


----------



## longbowbbs

It provides a nice alternative to iTunes....


----------



## mkegan

Amarra has now come down considerably in price.  For $49 you can get Amara HiFi which does a very good job and definitely improves the sound compare with regular old Itunes.  It also alows the possibllity of import oversampled high bit rate FLACs into the iTunes library and playing them.  Well worth it, you can try trial download then compare with pure music, decibel ,audirvana etc.  Good summary article on this on Headfonia.
  u


----------



## Silent One

Any thoughts on Amarra v2.4.3?


----------



## longbowbbs

It is working flawlessly on the MBPro and the MacMini so far....Great piece of software.


----------



## paradoxper

For once I have no issues to complain about either.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





longbowbbs said:


> It is working flawlessly on the MBPro and the MacMini so far....Great piece of software.


 
   
  I'm just warming up the rig now (0500 hrs) to try and sneak in a 90 minute session before bedtime. The grand plan was to skip last night's session and do all my house chores for Saturday - finished up at 0415hrs. This overnight success frees me up for watching College Football all day/evening (NCAA Hoops as well).
   
  Once I got Audirvana Plus w/Direct mode, and a TT, I ended up skipping updates. Didn't care much for the last revision a few months back on Mountain Lion. Will give myself some time to see what I think of this one.


----------



## spahn_ranch

Like previous updates it does drop out completely from time to time, meaning total silence for a whole track or more, but this appears less frequently with the 2.4.3.
   
  I can easily say that this version of Amarra is the best digitally based sound reproduction I've had in my system. And likewise, although very difficult to compare when auditions are spread over long periods of time and on different systems, it *is* some of the best digital I've ever heard, computer based or otherwise. A note on that is the necessity of a USB/Spdif converter.


----------



## Silent One

Quote: 





spahn_ranch said:


> Like previous updates it does drop out completely from time to time, meaning total silence for a whole track or more, but this appears less frequently with the 2.4.3.
> 
> I can easily say that this version of Amarra is the best digitally based sound reproduction I've had in my system. And likewise, although very difficult to compare when auditions are spread over long periods of time and on different systems, it *is* some of the best digital I've ever heard, computer based or otherwise. A note on that is the necessity of a USB/Spdif converter.


 
   
  Agreed. In my own experience, playback reached another level once I added a USB-S/PDIF converter into the mix with Amarra.


----------



## longbowbbs

I keep reading about these drop-outs but frankly, I am not experiencing them. The sound quality is excellent. I an going USB out on the MBPro to my DM+ so no SpDif needed as the DM+ is 24/192 with USB 2.0. The Mini is Optical out to my Denon DVR-4311CI. The Denon has AKM DAC's and is also 24/192. The sound is great through my M&K 150's. So far so good!


----------



## pigmode

2.4.3 (4433). Looks like the issue I had in the last ver. of both Amarra and iTunes opening with volume set to zero, with an option box to set both to maximum has been resolved.


----------



## longbowbbs

That may be the issue. I always have the volume set to max so I have not had any dropouts.


----------



## Solitary1

Been rock-solid for me.


----------



## iamoneagain

Yeah, this version seems pretty good.  I decided to give it another try since the latest Audirvana + beta direct mode is buggy with drop outs. Think Amarra might actually present the vocals a little smoother, which is good because they were seeming a tab bright in my system.  Once Audirvana + is stable again, probably go back since it just so much quicker, no cache load up time.  But I'll make sure if give both a fair comparison based on sound alone.


----------



## pigmode

The brief for 2.4.5 (4436) mentioned fixing iTunes 11, and indeed 2.4.3 did not work with iTunes 11 in my system.  2.4.5 seems to be running fine.


----------



## nicholas029

I currently running Lion v. 10.7.5 with 8MB RAM with Amarra 2.4.2 build 4420 through a ARC DAC 8 with the best sonic improvement of the three audio software programs I own.  I have been reluctant to continue the Apple upgrade path to Mountain Lion and iTunes 11 with their cloud priority and awareness of better playback programs, ie everything outside of iTunes.  
  My problem is that I cannot upgrade to Amarra 2.4.5 without loss of the quality that I have come to enjoy with Amarra.  (Bought Mini and rebranded now to Amarra, not Symphony.  
   
  Amarra has always been plagued with minor, and sometimes major, bugs when Apple changes its OS.  Should I stay in my comfort zone and get off the new version treadmill or should I take the chance and go to Mountain Lion, Amarra 2.4.5?


----------



## KevinWolff

I've found the safest way to test new os/amarra updates is to create a SuperDuper clone backup of my system onto a second drive, and upgrade the OS and app there while keeping the system I know works well untouched. If you store your itunes library (actually lib file, not just music folder) on second drive like I do, make a copy before iTunes11 updates it or you can never go back without adding your music to iTunes from scratch. I was able to test Lion and Mt. Lion and all the amarra updates this way while keeping my snolep system intact. Good thing, too, because it seems that each time I can't run back to Snolep and Amarra 2.2 fast enough. 
   
   
  Quote: 





nicholas029 said:


> I currently running Lion v. 10.7.5 with 8MB RAM with Amarra 2.4.2 build 4420 through a ARC DAC 8 with the best sonic improvement of the three audio software programs I own.  I have been reluctant to continue the Apple upgrade path to Mountain Lion and iTunes 11 with their cloud priority and awareness of better playback programs, ie everything outside of iTunes.
> My problem is that I cannot upgrade to Amarra 2.4.5 without loss of the quality that I have come to enjoy with Amarra.  (Bought Mini and rebranded now to Amarra, not Symphony.
> 
> Amarra has always been plagued with minor, and sometimes major, bugs when Apple changes its OS.  Should I stay in my comfort zone and get off the new version treadmill or should I take the chance and go to Mountain Lion, Amarra 2.4.5?


----------



## hifiact

Is this software better than foobar?
   
  I want to try it with 10.6.8 that I have on my PC using virtualbox.


----------



## goodvibes

would be interesting for you to test. I think Foobar is quite good with the right files and setup. WASAPI, no resampling or gain adjust. I found Amarra the best library player option on a MAC though I haven't checked in a while. I'm not a fan of USB interfaces in general and prefer things like the Weiss(expensive) or TC Konnekt (cheaper) that both use JET but it seems firewire is fading away. It's been a while but I remember the Halide better than most USB interfaces. I once tested a M2tech Young dac and it was clearly better with the Weiss via S/Pdif than it was via it's own usb interface. Th e sound improved once more out of $7k worth of dedicated server/streamer setup without the seperate DAC ( no PC) and better again when I added that $2k DAC to the streamer's S/Pdif out.
   
   My favorite sounding SW on either format is Wavelab but it's more a mastering program than player and doesn't support libraries. All that said, computers as players are great for tunes on a budget but not optimum for best sound.


----------



## rianchaos

Last night I was setting up Amarra on my Asus Hackintosh and I encountered some problems. First, I cant get to play wav and aiff files from the playlist, but when I used iTunes with amarra engine it worked.

Then I get a pause on my sound output everytime I put a new file on the playlist, not that it is non functioning but it gets really annoying.

Am I the only one getting these or is it for everyone. My guess was that because I used hackintosh, it is a dry run before I go and sell some of my things and get a Macbook Pro


----------



## Xenophon

I'm using Amarra 2.5 (build 4660) on my end 2008 MBP with 8 Gb RAM and a SSD.  Have to say I think the software's amazing.  The signal (FLAC) goes from my Mac over USB2 to a small dac/amp combo which I use when travelling (Fio E17 in combo with the E9 and then into my Beyerdynamics DT 880 (600 Ohm) headphones.  Before using Amarra the sound quality was simply unacceptable with clipping etc.  Don't know how it technically worked but my mac in combo with the amp was butchering my music.  I installed Amarra first as a trial but lo and behold, the results were really spectacular.  Electronic wizardry as far as I'm concerned.  Very good value for money too BUT that being said, running OS X 10.8.3 (Mountain Lion) there are very occasional short dropouts or stuttering.  Nothing too detracting but I think it's worth mentioning.  Hopefully it'll get fixed soon.  Still, marvellous piece of software as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## sling5s

Wow, I wished I used it earlier.  Really hear the difference.  Would have loved to hear it with Violectric V800 when I had it because just the Amarra with the Meridian Explorer sounds so good.  I don't think I can every go back to just iTunes.  So much more depth, detail, instrument separation, soundstage and the midrange bloom and warmth it gives.  Sounds like SACD.


----------



## dallan

I have been using it for years, can't even imagine going back. I actually converted from PC to Mac because of it.


----------



## longbowbbs

Quote: 





dallan said:


> I have been using it for years, can't even imagine going back. I actually converted from PC to Mac because of it.


 
  The first time I heard it at me dealers I was impressed. It is a great addition to the chain. I believe they are working on DSD capability now.


----------



## iamoneagain

I"m always going back and forth between Amarra and Audirvana + but end up coming back to Amarra because of the warmer sound.  Audirvana + has a touch more detail and is a little more dynamic but after extended listening isn't as organic sounding.  Also strings have a sweeter sound on Amarra.


----------



## sling5s

Yes, I too prefer the natural and organic sound of amarra.


----------



## sling5s

Wish that they made an iphone or ipad app. version.  That would be awesome!


----------



## sling5s

Love the "vocals" EQ.  It brings out the midrange.  Makes it more full, liquid, smooth and alive.  Especially for JH13 which tend to sound midrange recessed sometimes do to the bass and treble being a little more pronounced unless you have an Amp that is midforward.  I use it with my LCD-2 also.  It compensates for the upper midrange being recessed. 
   
  I used to miss my Grado RS1 because of the midrange fowardness that it gave but hated the treble spike sometimes.  Now with the "vocals" EQ on the Amarra, no longer crave the Grado RS1.  It was really a love and hate thing.


----------



## longbowbbs

I am patiently waiting the Amarra DSD implementation.....Audirvana+ until then.


----------



## schalliol

I've noticed that Amarra seems to use 12.5% on average of my CPU on my late 2013 MacBook Pro even when it's been paused for a long time.  This figure is reported by activity monitor.  This happens whether the cache playback is on or not.  My machine is as powerful as the laptops come with the 2.6 i7 16 GB RAM and a 1TB SSD, so it seems to be pretty intensive while paused.  What do other see when when Amarra is not playing?  Thanks!


----------



## longbowbbs

I have a maxed out New model Mini and I never notice any lag when Amarra is playing. I have not checked the usage but it has not created any problems for me. Just great sounding music.


----------



## schalliol

Thanks for the note. My music sounds good, but I'm wondering why it consumes so much in the background. Could others check using activity monitor?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

schalliol said:


> I've noticed that Amarra seems to use 12.5% on average of my CPU on my late 2013 MacBook Pro even when it's been paused for a long time.  This figure is reported by activity monitor.  This happens whether the cache playback is on or not.  My machine is as powerful as the laptops come with the 2.6 i7 16 GB RAM and a 1TB SSD, so it seems to be pretty intensive while paused.  What do other see when when Amarra is not playing?  Thanks!


 
 4.2% - 4.7% when idle for 2.6 - 16GB/1TB 2013 15" retina MBP


----------



## schalliol

Sounds like you have the same machine as mine.  I wonder why I have more CPU activity.  Frankly, I'm not sure why there should be more than 1% when it's sitting in the background.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

schalliol said:


> Sounds like you have the same machine as mine.  I wonder why I have more CPU activity.  Frankly, I'm not sure why there should be more than 1% when it's sitting in the background.


 
  
 Well, it does set up a large cache in RAM and monitors the Mac's need for more RAM for apps, etc. It will try to take all available RAM, and re-claim RAM if there is any left from quitting another app.


----------



## schalliol

That does make sense.  Thanks


----------



## GungaDin

Is iTunes radio playable through the Amarra engine? I'm a new Amarra user and I'd asumed it would be but it won't play unless I disable Amarra's engine and let the iTunes engine handle iTunes radio play. Rather disappointing.


----------



## longbowbbs

I cannot get iTunes Radio to play via Amarra. It will always switch immediately back to iTunes.


----------



## GungaDin

Okay, thanks lbbbs.


----------



## qveda

sling5s said:


> Wish that they made an iphone or ipad app. version.  That would be awesome!


 
  
 I just downloaded the trial of Amarra 2.6. and am expecting to mostly play FLAC files.  I am really surprised that it does not provide a user interface that make it easy search by  album, artist etc more like iTunes or other  music server software.  It seems very limited and kind of rudimentary.   Am I missing something ?


----------



## GarySaville

qveda said:


> I just downloaded the trial of Amarra 2.6. and am expecting to mostly play FLAC files.  I am really surprised that it does not provide a user interface that make it easy search by  album, artist etc more like iTunes or other  music server software.  It seems very limited and kind of rudimentary.   Am I missing something ?


 
 No, you are not. Welcome to Amarra; welcome to 1980.


----------



## qveda

Hah!  yes, 1980...   well, I would tolerate a poor interface more than poor SQ.  From posts,  it seems that Amarra may have the edge on SQ for Macs.   maybe later I will get into setting up a streamer that can have an iPad interface.   but I haven't explored that yet.    
  
 if I decide that portable is more important than desktop (still unsure)  then it may not be as much of an issue since I would use an iPad  or a  DAP as a source.    
  
 open to suggestions for the best set up for Macs


----------



## GarySaville

It drives me crazy that I like Amarra's sound quality since their programming skills, at least as far as interface skills are concerned, show that the company do not know how to program. However, the EQ is very musical, so if I know exactly what I feel like listening to, then I generally fire up Amarra. Otherwise, I tend to stick to JRiver's Media Centre, which has a decent interface and decent EQ as well.


----------



## paradoxper

garysaville said:


> It drives me crazy that I like Amarra's sound quality since their programming skills, at least as far as interface skills are concerned, show that the company do not know how to program. However, the EQ is very musical, so if I know exactly what I feel like listening to, then I generally fire up Amarra. Otherwise, I tend to stick to JRiver's Media Centre, which has a decent interface and decent EQ as well.


 
 Have you by chance compared JRiver to Fidelia, Audirvana, etc?


----------



## qveda

paradoxper said:


> Have you by chance compared JRiver to Fidelia, Audirvana, etc?


 
 I'm trying JRiver right now


----------



## paradoxper

I'll be right behind you. Amarra has always won out per sound, but I've grown tired of the GUI. I actually use BitPerfect more than anything because I've
 found its sound to be as good as those others. But maybe JRiver can step it up in all areas.


----------



## qveda

Even though its kind of hidden,  the DSP in JRiver provides paraEQ that allows you to apply it to the left or right or both.  cool!   not sure that is possible in Amarra


----------



## longbowbbs

I use Amarra with iTunes so I get their processing and iTunes interface. Thats a good compromise. I use Aurdirvana + for DSD. It will be interesting when the newly announced Amarra 3.0 comes out with its DSD capabilities.


----------



## WNBC

Some people say that Amarra alone sounds better than Amarra + iTunes?  Have you evaluated this?
  
  
 Quote:


longbowbbs said:


> I use Amarra with iTunes so I get their processing and iTunes interface. Thats a good compromise. I use Aurdirvana + for DSD. It will be interesting when the newly announced Amarra 3.0 comes out with its DSD capabilities.


----------



## longbowbbs

wnbc said:


> Some people say that Amarra alone sounds better than Amarra + iTunes?  Have you evaluated this?
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


 
 I have. The difference is subtle and not always best either alone or paired with iTunes. So, unless I am really doing some critical listening, I keep iTunes engaged for convenience. I have found that Audirvana+ can be better with Non DSD files too. Fun/annoyance of the hobby. Nothing seems to be always the best. One copes though....


----------



## WNBC

Thanks, this subtlety is similar to what others have said.  The iTunes interface with Amarra is so much better than Amarra alone.  I am surprised Amarra isn't on board with DSD yet, esp. considering the cost of the software.
  
  
 Quote:


longbowbbs said:


> I have. The difference is subtle and not always best either alone or paired with iTunes. So, unless I am really doing some critical listening, I keep iTunes engaged for convenience. I have found that Audirvana+ can be better with Non DSD files too. Fun/annoyance of the hobby. Nothing seems to be always the best. One copes though....


----------



## longbowbbs

wnbc said:


> Thanks, this subtlety is similar to what others have said.  The iTunes interface with Amarra is so much better than Amarra alone.  I am surprised Amarra isn't on board with DSD yet, esp. considering the cost of the software.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


 
 They announced Ver 3.0 at T.H.E Show in Newport last week. DSD is part of it. It should be available before long. Then we'll see how it compares with Audirvana, JRiver and PureMusic.


----------



## Currawong

I've complained to them about the UI for years, but gave up. I wouldn't be surprised if the problem is they can't easily or don't want to transition to XCode which would allow them to use a regular OSX UI.
  
 Lately I've been using Amarra on my main computer and Audirvana Plus on my MB Air because Audirvana can screw up the ability to use peripherals by trying to hog devices on the USB bus.


----------



## paradoxper

I almost think they charge way too much for having such an atrocious UI. Kind of pathetic. But the sound is great, grr.


----------



## paradoxper

So after playing around with JRiver a few days - Amarra ain't goin' nowhere! Arggg, grobble-grobble.


----------



## WNBC

No good huh?  Back when I was using a PC I had both Foobar and JRiver.  They were decent.  When I switched to Mac everyone highly recommended Amarra and there was a $99 sale (normally $189).  Never tried JRiver with Mac but the organization and interface for JRiver is top notch.  Will be interesting to see how Amarra evolves with its interface.
  
 Anybody using the uber expensive Symphony or used the demo version? 
  
  
 Quote:


paradoxper said:


> So after playing around with JRiver a few days - Amarra ain't goin' nowhere! Arggg, grobble-grobble.


----------



## paradoxper

wnbc said:


> No good huh?  Back when I was using a PC I had both Foobar and JRiver.  They were decent.  When I switched to Mac everyone highly recommended Amarra and there was a $99 sale (normally $189).  Never tried JRiver with Mac but the organization and interface for JRiver is top notch.  Will be interesting to see how Amarra evolves with its interface.


 
  
 The UI is great - it's a smart layout, the response time is fast per loading tracks, etc.
 I was always impressed with JRiver on Windows, but this just didn't do it for me.
 The kicker - really Amarra is just that much better sounding to me, so I'll live with the fuss.


----------



## qveda

paradoxper said:


> The UI is great - it's a smart layout, the response time is fast per loading tracks, etc.
> I was always impressed with JRiver on Windows, but this just didn't do it for me.
> The kicker - really Amarra is just that much better sounding to me, so I'll live with the fuss.


 
  
 I am new to trying these apps, as a departure from itunes. I didn't really expect these apps to actually sound much different - thought it they would differentiate on UI and features.   but I do agree, that Amarra seems to sound better,  and yes... arrgghh (since I don't like their UI)


----------



## longbowbbs

I have given up on JRiver for Mac for now. I use it on my PC but it is not ready for prime time on the Mac yet. Audirvana + does a nice job with DSD and has it's own flavor vs Amarra. Overall I still prefer Amarra. I am anxious to hear their DSD implementation from Version 3.0 It should be out soon.


----------



## dallan

One reason i jumped to mac was because of Amarra…..


----------



## qveda

dallan said:


> One reason i jumped to mac was because of Amarra…..


 
  
 What do you like most about Amarra ?


----------



## dallan

SQ.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

qveda said:


> I just downloaded the trial of Amarra 2.6. and am expecting to mostly play FLAC files.  I am really surprised that it does not provide a user interface that make it easy search by  album, artist etc more like iTunes or other  music server software.  It seems very limited and kind of rudimentary.   Am I missing something ?


 
  
 The user interface that make it easy search by  album, artist etc more like iTunes IS iTunes, so use MAX to convert your FLAC to ALAC?


----------



## qveda

headphoneaddict said:


> The user interface that make it easy search by  album, artist etc more like iTunes IS iTunes, so use MAX to convert your FLAC to ALAC?


 
  
 Yes, I'm starting to figure that out.  so as I am about to start ripping CDs  I may rip (using XLD) to both FLAC and AIFF for iTunes.  That way if I switch to a different player later, I won't have to re-rip.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

qveda said:


> Yes, I'm starting to figure that out.  so as I am about to start ripping CDs  I may rip (using XLD) to both FLAC and AIFF for iTunes.  That way if I switch to a different player later, I won't have to re-rip.


 
  
 Yeah, if storage space isn't an issue AIFF is probably a better universal format for using in iTune AND other music players than ALAC.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

I just swung by their site, and most of their links are 404'd. But of course their store page is still up. Anybody know what's up with that?


----------



## iamoneagain

The new 3.0 is now out.  I haven't figured out how to buy upgrade from 2.6.  I just downloaded demo and tried the 15 day evaluation. Sent an email asking about how to upgrade.
  
 Not sure what all is new.  I can now drag and drop an iTunes album cover in one try.  The playlist box follows the top box much better, however when i reopen, it's back to original size.  Think the file load up a little quicker.  For most, part other than new blue color, at lot of the other interfaces look the same.  Not sure even worth $30 upgrade fee since I can continue to use 2.6.
  
 I also did a quick compare to Audirvana + and prefer the sound of Amarra.  More drum impact and a sweeter sound.  I also try to convince myself I like Audirvana + better because the interface and quick load times are so much better, but falls slightly short in sound.  I haven't compared 2.6 to 3.0 yet. 
  
 edit: got email back, you just your serial # in the coupon code on the buy page.  I also on quick back and forth between 2.6 and 3.0, it sounds a little more dynamic and clearer. I like sound of 3.0 better.


----------



## WNBC

I literally just got an email with the upgrade link.  Cost for those of us upgrading is $29.99.  Updating later on will cost $49.99.  Seems like a no-brainer even just for the DSD playback.
  
 Quote:


iamoneagain said:


> The new 3.0 is now out.  I haven't figured out how to buy upgrade from 2.6.  I just downloaded demo and tried the 15 day evaluation. Sent an email asking about how to upgrade.
> 
> Not sure what all is new.  I can now drag and drop an iTunes album cover in one try.  The playlist box follows the top box much better, however when i reopen, it's back to original size.  Think the file load up a little quicker.  For most, part other than new blue color, at lot of the other interfaces look the same.  Not sure even worth $30 upgrade fee since I can continue to use 2.6.
> 
> ...


----------



## santacore

Hmmmm. tempting....


----------



## Redcarmoose

santacore said:


> Hmmmm. tempting....




Perfection with AH-D Denon 7000 headphones.


----------



## santacore

redcarmoose said:


> Perfection with AH-D Denon 7000 headphones.


 

 Fantastic, man! I'm so glad you are still digging those phones. One of my few audio regrets.......
  
 I've been running Amarra Symphony 3.0 and have been very happy with the sound of my system.


----------



## Redcarmoose

santacore said:


> Fantastic, man! I'm so glad you are still digging those phones. One of my few audio regrets.......
> 
> I've been running Amarra Symphony 3.0 and have been very happy with the sound of my system.





Common not really? Really, just get a Fostex set?

Come-on your totally happy?


http://www.amazon.com/FOSTEX-TH600-Premium-Reference-Headphones/dp/B00BEUCNNC

http://www.amazon.com/Fostex-USA-Headphones-Japanese-Magnetic/dp/B007G8UMP2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_MI_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0PH4VD8GQABGG27PFHZD


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I'm still using 2.6.45 so do I really need to update?  It's always a PITA to do that.  If it didn't sound so good I wouldn't bother, but...


----------



## dallan

I never got the upgrade email, ugh, is it still $29. ? Love my Amarra, got it when it was still very pricey but not when it was brand new and crazy expensive at least. Think it was around $600. When I got it, so what, half price, I don't remember.


----------



## WNBC

Anybody have the Amarra 3.0 bug in which if you are playing music then add new tracks using the finder the player will then go one track back?  With the previous version, when doing the same thing the track would just start over.  Another bug is that I typically can't play more than 1 or 2 DSD tracks before the player shuts down.  Minor nibbles and I don't have a lot of DSD files.    
  
 The player overall does seem to load faster and program quicker to respond to commands.


----------



## longbowbbs

I have not experienced that behavior. So far it works as advertised.


----------



## grokit

After years of using happily using pure music on my Mac,
 they decided that they wanted to charge me $129 to use it with a current operating system (PM V2).
 So now I am finally a proud owner of Amarra SQ & HiFi, loving it


----------



## WNBC

After years of using a PC I tried a MAC a year ago.  I was going to try multiple players but my friends said just get Amarra and you're done.  I haven't regretted it yet.
  
  
 Quote:


grokit said:


> After years of using happily using pure music on my Mac,
> they decided that they wanted to charge me $129 to use it with a current operating system (PM V2).
> So now I am finally a proud owner of Amarra SQ & HiFi, loving it


----------



## grokit

I almost did that, but I really liked pure music back then, and the fact that it ran on old os's and they let you have 5 licenses plus their itunes integration really sold me. But it is no longer the case, that the current version will run on old macs.
  
 So now I still have pm running on my old macs, and the amarra programs are on my mac mini, they are pretty brainless which I like. I can see that the full version would provide benefit, but I can live without upsampling and I want to keep using itunes playlists so I'm okay with no crossfading as well. I'm also really enjoying their SQ program when I'm slumming with youtubes, which which I enjoy doing with my lcd-2's in particular. I'm very pleased with the change.


----------



## longboy

reader said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tuckers* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> ...


 

 Amarra is INFINITELY better than foobar2000... in a Mac-based system. You can't compare PC-only with Mac-only and not have the result be void of content.


----------



## sling5s

Anyone using the parametric eq?  I'm wondering how many bandwidth left and right the Q settings represent? For example, .7 is how many bandwidth?


----------



## omasciarotte

Quality Factor or Q=Fr/B or center or resonant frequency divided by bandwidth. To solve for bandwidth, divide resonant frequency by Q…Since Q is relative to the frequency, you can't really pick a number, like your 0.7, and spit out a value without knowing one of the other values...
  
 Q is used, rather than bandwidth, since our hearing is non-linear in many ways. In this case, our ability to distinguish frequency or pitch is less acute at higher frequencies. A filter with a Q of 0.7 will "sound the same" at any frequency, whereas a filter with a fixed bandwidth, say of 100 Hz, will sound different at 100 Hz than at 1000 or 10,000 Hz. So, Q is a more human or musical way of expressing a filter's characteristics than bandwidth…Make sense?


----------



## sling5s

omasciarotte said:


> Quality Factor or Q=Fr/B or center or resonant frequency divided by bandwidth. To solve for bandwidth, divide resonant frequency by Q…Since Q is relative to the frequency, you can't really pick a number, like your 0.7, and spit out a value without knowing one of the other values...
> 
> Q is used, rather than bandwidth, since our hearing is non-linear in many ways. In this case, our ability to distinguish frequency or pitch is less acute at higher frequencies. A filter with a Q of 0.7 will "sound the same" at any frequency, whereas a filter with a fixed bandwidth, say of 100 Hz, will sound different at 100 Hz than at 1000 or 10,000 Hz. So, Q is a more human or musical way of expressing a filter's characteristics than bandwidth…Make sense?


 

 I get the idea but I don't know how to implement it. For example I want to boost 3db Freq.range from 1000khz to 5000khz.  What's the best way to do it? 
 I'm assuming you would boost 3000khz and what "Q" to get the left and right of it?


----------



## omasciarotte

You said:


> …I want to boost 3db Freq.range from 1000khz to 5000khz.  What's the best way to do it?
> I'm assuming you would boost 3000khz and what "Q" to get the left and right of it?


 
  
  
 What I would do is first find the "center" of your frequency range. To do that you need to find the range itself. So, 5000 - 1000 = 4000 Hz is the range. The center is half that or 4000/2= 2000 Hz. then take that and add it to the lower frequency limit so 1000 + 2000 = 3000 Hz. That's your (center) Frequency setting. Then set your Gain to +3 dB and you’re done. No need for Q at all.
  
 One other setting you may need, depending on which Amarra (or other equalizer) you have, is the Order. That setting determines the slope of the filter’s “skirts,” or what happens at the two ends of its range. Another way of thinking about Order is to ask, “How quickly does the filter transition into and out of affecting the audio?” Most filters, unless specified, are “1st order.” That is, they transition at 6 dB per octave, which is quite a wide range of frequencies. 2nd order filters have 6 x 2 or 12 dB per octave slopes so, the filter’s gain “happens” over a much narrower range of frequencies from no gain change to full gain change. Amarra Symphony as well as sQ have multi–order filter, so you can specify 1st through 4th order. 1st order filters are rounded and sine–like, whereas 4th order filters have quite straight, vertical sides. The look like a mesa in Utah, rather than an old hill that’s been rounded off by a glacier…Sorry for the geological simile!


----------



## sling5s

omasciarotte said:


> What I would do is first find the "center" of your frequency range. To do that you need to find the range itself. So, 5000 - 1000 = 4000 Hz is the range. The center is half that or 4000/2= 2000 Hz. then take that and add it to the lower frequency limit so 1000 + 2000 = 3000 Hz. That's your (center) Frequency setting. Then set your Gain to +3 dB and you’re done. No need for Q at all..
> 
> One other setting you may need, depending on which Amarra (or other equalizer) you have, is the Order. That setting determines the slope of the filter’s “skirts,” or what happens at the two ends of its range. Another way of thinking about Order is to ask, “How quickly does the filter transition into and out of affecting the audio?” Most filters, unless specified, are “1st order.” That is, they transition at 6 dB per octave, which is quite a wide range of frequencies. 2nd order filters have 6 x 2 or 12 dB per octave slopes so, the filter’s gain “happens” over a much narrower range of frequencies from no gain change to full gain change. Amarra Symphony as well as sQ have multi–order filter, so you can specify 1st through 4th order. 1st order filters are rounded and sine–like, whereas 4th order filters have quite straight, vertical sides. The look like a mesa in Utah, rather than an old hill that’s been rounded off by a glacier…Sorry for the geological simile!



I'm really a visual learner so I would help if I could see it. My understanding is that parametric eq is a bell curve. So the Q controls the range of the bandwidth curve. I'm still confused about how to control the range using the Q with the center freq. I'm mind


----------



## omasciarotte

sling5s said:


> I'm really a visual learner so I would help if I could see it. My understanding is that parametric eq is a bell curve. So the Q controls the range of the bandwidth curve. I'm still confused about how to control the range using the Q with the center freq. I'm mind


 
  
 Humm, tough one since apparently the EQ version your using doesn’t have a gain versus frequency graph associated with it…EQ is either set “by ear,” in which case you don’t really care what the values are, or because you have a problem you want to put a bandaid on.
  
 Since you must be in the latter camp, _and_ you’re an Amarra user already, try this; Head to sonicstudio.com and download the demo of sQ. Install it and play with it. It has a visual component and will give you a good feel for what a basic, 1st order paramet “looks” and sounds like. The presets have more exotic topologies but, if you set it to *Flat* and start messing with the four control points, you’ll quickly see what corresponds to what you’re hearing. The white spline is the aggregate response of all four filters working together.
  
 By grabbing the blue control point, centering it on around 3k, and pulling it down 3 dB, you’ll get the -3 at 3k response we talked about above. What you really need is a 2nd or 3rd order paramet, since you’ll notice that the filter skirts (edges) don't extend far enough to hit your 1k and 5k targets. The gain at those two frequencies is less than 1 dB, which is negligible. A higher order filter would help to nail your gain versus frequency requirements. Set sQ to *Rock*, then grab the yellow control point and try setting your filter with that…See the difference? The current sQ version doesn’t expose all the controls that you have in Sonic EQ. Maybe they’ll be uncovered in a future version.


----------



## sling5s

omasciarotte said:


> Humm, tough one since apparently the EQ version your using doesn’t have a gain versus frequency graph associated with it…EQ is either set “by ear,” in which case you don’t really care what the values are, or because you have a problem you want to put a bandaid on.
> 
> Since you must be in the latter camp, _and_ you’re an Amarra user already, try this; Head to sonicstudio.com and download the demo of sQ. Install it and play with it. It has a visual component and will give you a good feel for what a basic, 1st order paramet “looks” and sounds like. The presets have more exotic topologies but, if you set it to *Flat* and start messing with the four control points, you’ll quickly see what corresponds to what you’re hearing. The white spline is the aggregate response of all four filters working together.
> 
> By grabbing the blue control point, centering it on around 3k, and pulling it down 3 dB, you’ll get the -3 at 3k response we talked about above. What you really need is a 2nd or 3rd order paramet, since you’ll notice that the filter skirts (edges) don't extend far enough to hit your 1k and 5k targets. The gain at those two frequencies is less than 1 dB, which is negligible. A higher order filter would help to nail your gain versus frequency requirements. Set sQ to *Rock*, then grab the yellow control point and try setting your filter with that…See the difference? The current sQ version doesn’t expose all the controls that you have in Sonic EQ. Maybe they’ll be uncovered in a future version.


 

 Thanks for all your help.  Will try.


----------



## longboy

Check this out:
  
 http://www.prosofteng.com/products/hear.php
  
I've used Hear happily since the time when it cost sixty bucks and Amarra Symphony cost 725 bucks. Hear makes it unnecessary to hold an advanced degree in audio engineering from MIT in order to tweak your sound.
  
Of course, since your mileage may vary, Hear is free to try.


----------



## crixnet

Amarra makes music sound great. But my 3.0.3 stops outputting sound after 30 minutes, or so. The progress bar for the track continues to move, but no audio is sent to my phones.
  
 I have set all settings as suggested by Sonic: Cache=3GB, Disable All, Bypass Gain, Finder Off, Playlist (No iTunes), EQ Off.
  
 I'm playing FLAC files in my playlists only. I created them by dragging them from the Finder. I've read something about using XLD to create virtual disks of albums, but I'm not sure what the deal is with that. Any thoughts on whether importing a bunch of FLAC files into XLD and creating virtual disks would be advantageous?
  
 I've trashed Amarra's pref files. I read where the Apple Help file should be trashed as well, but there's no script that specifies deleting Apple Help, and I don't know where it's located. Is this possible? If so, where is the Apple Help file that should be deleted when deleting the Amarra prefs file?
  
 Is there anything I've missed in my setup, or is there anything else I can do to prevent Amarra from not outputting sound randomly after playing for 30-40 minutes?
  
 Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## longboy

I paid $725 for Amarra Symphony, back in the day. That struck me as kind of expensive... till I found out that Symphony once had cost more than a thousand bucks! OTOH, I did pay only $29 for the upgrade.


----------



## dallan

Yep, i got it back before the days of symphony and so upgrade was 29. as well. When i got it the price for normal Amarra had come down from $1500. to $1000. and i think was just about to drop to $750. which is i what i paid. Pricey but then the upgrade to Symphony cheaper was a good deal. I just recently did it from a very old version, wow! Sound is really superb.


----------



## Balroggg

Too expansive for me. For the moment I'm very happy with audirvana. Isn't the same, but audirvana is affordable for me. Thanks for the review.


----------



## tgdinamo

balroggg said:


> Too expansive for me. For the moment I'm very happy with audirvana. Isn't the same, but audirvana is affordable for me. Thanks for the review.


 
  
 I bought Amarra about a week ago (3.0.3 version for $99) and after exclusively using it during last week I feel it's significant improvement in terms of SQ over Audirvana Plus.
 But Amarra stability is an issue as the recommended settings do not produce stable environment in my case. To be specific, to get reliable performance I had to turn off cache and preloading completely, as well as not use itunes integration at all (it is so buggy it should be completely removed from the app and/or completely re-written). Also I find not loading the last playlist during launching of app makes things more stable (app reliably comes up right away). Also, pointing to folders on network drives or even regular external usb3 hard drives seems less reliable than loading tracks into playlist from internal SSD drive (ie on my macbook pro I had some random crashes when connected to anything other than internal SSD hard drive - does not make any sense to me but the fact is I have not had any crashes since I switched to exclusively using the SSD). Finally, sometimes when I reboot the computer I have to go back into Amarra settings to re-assign the output to correctly point to my DAC (does not happen every time I reboot which makes no sense).
 However, all of these headaches are still worth it to me because the SQ is amazing.


----------



## longboy

tgdinamo said:


> I bought Amarra about a week ago (3.0.3 version for $99) and after exclusively using it during last week I feel it's significant improvement in terms of SQ over Audirvana Plus.
> But Amarra stability is an issue as the recommended settings do not produce stable environment in my case. To be specific, to get reliable performance I had to turn off cache and preloading completely, as well as not use itunes integration at all (it is so buggy it should be completely removed from the app and/or completely re-written). Also I find not loading the last playlist during launching of app makes things more stable (app reliably comes up right away). Also, pointing to folders on network drives or even regular external usb3 hard drives seems less reliable than loading tracks into playlist from internal SSD drive (ie on my macbook pro I had some random crashes when connected to anything other than internal SSD hard drive - does not make any sense to me but the fact is I have not had any crashes since I switched to exclusively using the SSD). Finally, sometimes when I reboot the computer I have to go back into Amarra settings to re-assign the output to correctly point to my DAC (does not happen every time I reboot which makes no sense).
> However, all of these headaches are still worth it to me because the SQ is amazing.


 
 In my case, pretty much the only way that I use Amarra is in conjunction with iTunes, though I do have a couple of Amarra playlists. I don't bother about the recommended settings. To make a long story short, I use Amarra on a nearly eight-year-old iMac with 6 gigs of RAM and I have absolutely none of the problems that you cite. If I did, I'd be *seriously* butt-hurt, since, as a fairly-early-adopter, I paid $725 for Amarra and not that give-away $99!  I *heartily* agree with you, WRT the SQ, though!


----------



## WNBC

Congrats, I like Amarra as well but I never tried Audio Nirvana.  I have no problem with preloading a playlist and cache unless I load over about 70-80 FLACs.   Around 30-40 FLACs is pretty stable.   No issues with external USB3.0 USB drives or external SSD drives.  Never tried external USB2.0 thumb drives or spinning disk drives with Amarra.  Rebooting and Amarra has not been an issue unless my DAC is off, but that is understandable.  I'm using a 2013 MBPr with 8 GB RAM.   At the time I was being a little cheap and did not buy the 16 GB of RAM.  I see the new ones come standard with 16GB RAM.  I looked at the trade-in value of my laptop.  Definitely would take a huge hit so no upgrades.  The 16 GB RAM might help with stability and the pre-loading of large playlists and cache.  
  
 Are you running a lot of programs while you use Amarra?
  
  
  
  
 Quote:


tgdinamo said:


> I bought Amarra about a week ago (3.0.3 version for $99) and after exclusively using it during last week I feel it's significant improvement in terms of SQ over Audirvana Plus.
> But Amarra stability is an issue as the recommended settings do not produce stable environment in my case. To be specific, to get reliable performance I had to turn off cache and preloading completely, as well as not use itunes integration at all (it is so buggy it should be completely removed from the app and/or completely re-written). Also I find not loading the last playlist during launching of app makes things more stable (app reliably comes up right away). Also, pointing to folders on network drives or even regular external usb3 hard drives seems less reliable than loading tracks into playlist from internal SSD drive (ie on my macbook pro I had some random crashes when connected to anything other than internal SSD hard drive - does not make any sense to me but the fact is I have not had any crashes since I switched to exclusively using the SSD). Finally, sometimes when I reboot the computer I have to go back into Amarra settings to re-assign the output to correctly point to my DAC (does not happen every time I reboot which makes no sense).
> However, all of these headaches are still worth it to me because the SQ is amazing.


----------



## tgdinamo

> Originally Posted by *WNBC* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Congrats, I like Amarra as well but I never tried Audio Nirvana.  I have no problem with preloading a playlist and cache unless I load over about 70-80 FLACs.   Around 30-40 FLACs is pretty stable.   No issues with external USB3.0 USB drives or external SSD drives.  Never tried external USB2.0 thumb drives or spinning disk drives with Amarra.  Rebooting and Amarra has not been an issue unless my DAC is off, but that is understandable.  I'm using a 2013 MBPr with 8 GB RAM.   At the time I was being a little cheap and did not buy the 16 GB of RAM.  I see the new ones come standard with 16GB RAM.  I looked at the trade-in value of my laptop.  Definitely would take a huge hit so no upgrades.  The 16 GB RAM might help with stability and the pre-loading of large playlists and cache.
> 
> Are you running a lot of programs while you use Amarra?


 
  
 I'm not running a lot of programs - just Amarra and typically browse internet while listening. I'm actually at a pretty good place right now in terms of stability - my current setup is stable. Given that I have a pretty recent and loaded laptop (in terms of cpu and memory) and everything stored on SSD it turns out that I don't really need cache or preloading at all. Everything runs very smooth and quick with it turned off. What is weird is that with that same laptop I had frequent crashes especially during Amarra startups, and even more so if also loading the previous playlist during app startup. Once I turned cache and loading that off everything comes up very quickly and no more crashes. I also only use the playlist mode (at least 50% of my albums are 192/24 and most others are 88/24 or higher as well - I listen to very few CD resolution files at this point so I don't have any need or benefit in terms of using itunes to manage files.
 One annoying thing still for me is that with Amarra all of my wav files don't show any metadata other than name of song when loaded into playlist window. I know people say wav files don't support metadata but Audirvana displays all the info from wav files (song name, album, artist, composer, resolution) in it's playlist window so I know for a fact all that is actually available in the wav files (just that Amarra developers chose not to bother with it).
 But again, the SQ is most important so I will put up with that and hope maybe down the road they decide to improve the user interface.
 By the way, the reason I heavily use wav files is that my portable dac Tera player only plays wav (so I always buy wav when available, or convert flac to wav to use with Tera player).


----------



## omasciarotte

Hey sling5s,
  
 Well, your visual learner ship has finally come in! I got an e-mail last night from Sonic, Amarra sQ+ will ship by the end of the month. See: http://j.mp/1HKFCuc
  
 This version has complete control over EQ, as well as what’s called “broadband noise reduction,” a.k.a. noise removal. Won't go into that feature but the really kewl thing for you (and me!) is the full–on EQ that you can patch into whatever your listening to.
  

  
 Take a look at this screenshot: This is a compensation network that I built based on Siegfried Linkwitz’s discussion on his web site. It's designed to work with my Etymotics. Specifically, take a look at the color coded parameters for each “section” of the EQ…The yellow section is a 1st order parametric with a Q of 2, while the narrower green section is also a 1st order but the Q is 9.
  
 By setting the Q to its minimum of 0.5, you can create a mesa-like EQ shape that may work for your original posting. Take a look at this:
  

  
 The green section is a 3rd order, having very steep “skirts” or sides, a flat top, and the 3dB boost centered on 2k that you had wanted. Give the demo a try when it's available…


----------



## omasciarotte

Whoops, forgot to mention that, as you increase Q or Order, you degrade the temporal response through the filter. (this is one of the reasons that old CD players and DAC sounded so crappy. They used “high order” filters). So, transients, liked plucked strings and percussion, are smeared in time. This is true for analog or digital filters, with one exception which I won’t go into…Anyway, the moral of this story is: used the lowest settings of Order or Q (Quality Factor) that will get the job done…Have fun exploring!


----------



## Jeb Listens

Hi Guys, 
  
 I've been wanting to get on board the Amarra train for a while now so decided to give Amarra SQ+ a trial.  I'm also trailing Tidal for 30 days too. 
  
 I'm really impressed with Tidal, besides the sound quality being notably more consistent than Spotify I also love the appearance of the desktop ap.  Anyway, I'm also enjoying Amarra SQ+ too and finding that is bringing some subtle improvements.
  
 After looking at the website I'm a bit confused about which version of Amarra to go for.  As well as streaming I also have quite a bit of music all in CD quality AIFF on iTunes and would like to keep using that.
  
 so:
  
 1) Am I right in thinking that Amarra SQ will be the best fit for my requirements since it processes *all* audio whether it be streaming or iTunes whereas Amarra Hifi is just for iTunes output?  
  
 2) Are there any advantages to having both SQ (for streaming)  _and_ HiFi for iTunes or does SQ do everything that HiFi does apart from the automatic switching of bitrates which I guess I don't need if all my music is 16/144? 
  
 3) Since Tidal is so good, if I gradually transition to using that exclusively - will  the new Amarra Tidal player have any benefits over just using Tidal and SQ+ ?
  
 Thanks!
  
 Jeb.


----------



## grokit

jeb listens said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I've been wanting to get on board the Amarra train for a while now so decided to give Amarra SQ+ a trial.  I'm also trailing Tidal for 30 days too.
> 
> ...


 

 I use both and they serve different purposes. HiFi is for the local music library, and SQ is for streamed audio.
  
 A better question might be what is best to use for streaming audio through iTunes?
  
 Tidal is Jay-Z's subscription-based streaming service, not sure why Amarra is using a special interface for it when it seems that SQ could do the trick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 I am going to try and re-rip my library so it's more cross-platform compatible between Mac & Windows, and thinking AIFF may be the best way to go? Or perhaps in both AAC and ALAC, using AAC for Windows/Android and ALAC for the Mac. WAV is out because of tagging issues(?), and FLAC is out because iTunes will be managing my library on a Mac. It it wasn't for Amarra I would consider leaving iTunes behind, as it's getting harder nad harder to manage a large library with a modern Mac.
  
 What if I ripped in AIFF on a Windows PC, would that be better for cross-platform use than if I ripped my CDs (still in AIFF) on a Mac?


----------



## Jeb Listens

grokit said:


> I use both and they serve different purposes. HiFi is for the local music library, and SQ is for streamed audio.
> 
> A better question might be what is best to use for streaming audio through iTunes?
> 
> ...


 

 Hi grokit, thanks for your response, 
  
 I'm afraid I can't help too much with cross platform compatibility - I'm sure others will be able to advise, though I would have thought that AIFF would work across platforms no matter where it was ripped.
  
 Yes I'm not sure what to make of the Tidal/Amarra player - I suppose it will be more streamlined with the facilities of SQ and Tidal all rolled into one neat player.  I know that people have had certain issues with getting Tidal and SQ to work together so perhaps this is their solution.  We'll see what the price is too! 
  
 With regards to what you said about using both HiFi & SQ -  why do you need HiFi as well as SQ -  when I play music from iTunes it goes through SQ as well.   Besides automatic bit-rate switching does HiFi do some extra cool stuff with the local music library that SQ can't do?
  
  
 Cheers!


----------



## grokit

jeb listens said:


> With regards to what you said about using both HiFi & SQ -  why do you need HiFi as well as SQ -  when I play music from iTunes it goes through SQ as well.   Besides automatic bit-rate switching does HiFi do some extra cool stuff with the local music library that SQ can't do?
> 
> 
> Cheers!


 
  
 I think it used to say in the SQ v.1 version manual not to use it when iTunes is running. Now I look in v.2 and it says that it's made for iTunes. The main reason I use it is to enhance youtubes etc., will have to do some more comparing of the two programs now.
  
 SQ certainly seems to be more robust than HiFi, also more than v.1 was. The interfaces are very different, where SQ seems more like a stand-alone program and HiFi seems more like an iTunes plug-in.


----------



## Jeb Listens

grokit said:


> I think it used to say in the SQ v.1 version manual not to use it when iTunes is running. Now I look in v.2 and it says that it's made for iTunes. The main reason I use it is to enhance youtubes etc., will have to do some more comparing of the two programs now.
> 
> SQ certainly seems to be more robust than HiFi, also more than v.1 was. The interfaces are very different, where SQ seems more like a stand-alone program and HiFi seems more like an iTunes plug-in.


 

 Cool thank you - yep the Amarra line-up has lot of over-laps in functionality with all the different options now.  
  
 I'm very much in experimentation stage with the EQ in SQ+ and not really sure if I'm doing it "right" so just going by what seems to sound best.   I've been able to remove a sharpness in the upper-mids that was really getting in the way of my enjoyment of my speakers!
  
 Cheers!


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## iamoneagain

grokit said:


> I think it used to say in the SQ v.1 version manual not to use it when iTunes is running. Now I look in v.2 and it says that it's made for iTunes. The main reason I use it is to enhance youtubes etc., will have to do some more comparing of the two programs now.
> 
> SQ certainly seems to be more robust than HiFi, also more than v.1 was. The interfaces are very different, where SQ seems more like a stand-alone program and HiFi seems more like an iTunes plug-in.


 

 I believe you should get better sound quality with HiFi than sQ because it playing the file directly and sending to a DAC.  the sQ program grabs the Soundsteam signal and then sends it to the DAC.  That's why they are coming out with the integrated Tidal app, to eliminate the extra step.  
  
 I only have Amarra, not the Hifi version, so when you use cache and playlist, you get a big improvement in sound.  But currently I've only been listening to sQ and Tidal since there so much out there I haven't heard in a while and new coming out each week. Look forward to trying out the integrated app as soon as it's released.


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## grokit

iamoneagain said:


> I believe you should get better sound quality with HiFi than sQ because it playing the file directly and sending to a DAC.  the sQ program grabs the Soundsteam signal and then sends it to the DAC.  That's why they are coming out with the integrated Tidal app, to eliminate the extra step.
> 
> I only have Amarra, not the Hifi version, so when you use cache and playlist, you get a big improvement in sound.  But currently I've only been listening to sQ and Tidal since there so much out there I haven't heard in a while and new coming out each week. Look forward to trying out the integrated app as soon as it's released.


 
  
 Thanks for explaining that, it makes sense to me but I did catch this in sQ's manual: "Amarra sQ uses the same great audio technology that’s in both our Amarra music player and soundBlade mastering software."
  
 I was also just wondering if they're going to integrate the two, or phase out HiFi or what so thanks for confirming this. I like EQ's iTunes interface, but I also like sQ's equalizer options. I would like to more about this upcoming integration.
  
 I dislike iTunes 12, it makes it harder to manage my own music collection. But I will stick with it for now because of Amarra, hopefully they will fix iTunes because I read this is Apple's #1 complaint right now. I don't listen to much streaming music at all.


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## Jeb Listens

iamoneagain said:


> I believe you should get better sound quality with HiFi than sQ because it playing the file directly and sending to a DAC.  the sQ program grabs the Soundsteam signal and then sends it to the DAC.  That's why they are coming out with the integrated Tidal app, to eliminate the extra step.
> 
> I only have Amarra, not the Hifi version, so when you use cache and playlist, you get a big improvement in sound.  But currently I've only been listening to sQ and Tidal since there so much out there I haven't heard in a while and new coming out each week. Look forward to trying out the integrated app as soon as it's released.


 

 Ah Excellent, thank you - I may hold out for the Tidal/Amarra player then.  With CD quality streaming on tap via Tidal, i'm not sure how much longer i'll want to keep using and adding to my local library anyway. 
  
 I hope the integrated app will look polished and be slick to use.  I really like the Tidal desktop app as it is now.
  
  
 You guys may have seen this already but this video is up on the Sonic Studios site.  Not too illuminating but it gives a glimpse at the player layout etc.  I think I read on a separate review that the price will be $39.99


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## iamoneagain

grokit said:


> Thanks for explaining that, it makes sense to me but I did catch this in sQ's manual: "Amarra sQ uses the same great audio technology that’s in both our Amarra music player and soundBlade mastering software."
> 
> I was also just wondering if they're going to integrate the two, or phase out HiFi or what so thanks for confirming this. I like EQ's iTunes interface, but I also like sQ's equalizer options. I would like to more about this upcoming integration.
> 
> I dislike iTunes 12, it makes it harder to manage my own music collection. But I will stick with it for now because of Amarra, hopefully they will fix iTunes because I read this is Apple's #1 complaint right now. I don't listen to much streaming music at all.


 

 Yeah it may use same technolgy but you are adding another link in the chain.  HifI uses iTunes to tell it what track to play and plays it directly.  If you upgrade to Amarra, then you can use without iTunes at all using playlist.  I still do a drag and drop from iTunes but you can just grab directly from finder.
  
 I've gone back and forth with Audirvana vs Amarra, but for sound quality, I found Amarra more enjoyable.  Audirvana ends up seeming a little harsh in my setup.  And HQPlayer sounds great but can't use ALAC files, so that's a no go for me.  But think if Tidal stays in business for awhile, most of my listening will be with that.
  
 But yeah, with the updated interface of sQ, you'd think they'd go back and update the original apps.  And why not add those custom headphone eq options as well.  And believe the Tidal app is going to have a remote companion app but no talk about the regular ones get same features.


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## iamoneagain

Wanted to add that Amarra is accepting people for the Amarra for Tidal beta test.  
  
 I filled one out but don't know when they are picking people or how many.  Also was kind of surprised since thought it was coming out soon (this month).  I guess have a few weeks left in the month but doesn't give much time to implement fixes for 1st final release.
  
 https://twitter.com/AmarraAudio/status/608299445235515392/photo/1


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## KC33

I just received an email for Amarra, offering a bundle of Hifi and Amarra sQ for 50 bucks. I came on here to see if anyone was using it and what they thought of it. It seems that they jumped on the new Apple Music as a motivation to offer this, (maybe they did the same with Tidal) so since I did pick up Apple Music yesterday I'm considering it. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## iamoneagain

Amarra sQ does help Apple Music but remember, it's still lossy at 256K AAC.  I was was doing a quick compare of Apple Music vs Tidal (in lossless mode) and Tidal is slightly better.  Better separation, clearer highs, and more dynamic range.  You'll also get a better sense of the music with Tidal.
  
 As far as how Amarra sQ helps Apple Music, gives it a little sweeter sound and deeper soundstage.  But if you plan to use Tidal, there an Amarra for Tidal app coming out soon.  You can try Tidal for 30 days to compare to Apple Music.  I like Apple Music better for selection and interface but not for sound quality.  So just matters what's more important to you.  Obviously you can test out Apple Music for free for 3 mo and Tidal for 30 days before spending any money.


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## grokit

I use HiFi and SQ, and for my needs I see no reason to upgrade further. I mostly listen to ripped CDs and high-rez youtubes.


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## Jeb Listens

iamoneagain said:


> Amarra sQ does help Apple Music but remember, it's still lossy at 256K AAC.  I was was doing a quick compare of Apple Music vs Tidal (in lossless mode) and Tidal is slightly better.  Better separation, clearer highs, and more dynamic range.  You'll also get a better sense of the music with Tidal.
> 
> As far as how Amarra sQ helps Apple Music, gives it a little sweeter sound and deeper soundstage.  But if you plan to use Tidal, there an Amarra for Tidal app coming out soon.  You can try Tidal for 30 days to compare to Apple Music.  I like Apple Music better for selection and interface but not for sound quality.  So just matters what's more important to you.  Obviously you can test out Apple Music for free for 3 mo and Tidal for 30 days before spending any money.




I'm curious , in the case of Apple Music, since HiFi handles files played via iTunes and Apple Music is now integrated into the iTunes desktop app is there any need for SQ (besides the additional EQ features) or is it still required since it is a streaming source?

Like you I'm kind of split between really liking the Apple interface but also really enjoying the quality of Tidal. I'll need to do some careful comparisons to see if I can justify the extra £10 a month for lossless Tidal since I keep reading that 256AAC - at least in theory - is considered to be an excellent codec at least on a par if not better than 320kbps MP3 and I know that in the past I have found it tough to distinguish between 320 and CD , although at times I've felt like I could and I'm sure some can.

If I feel like I can hear a difference I'll probably hold out for Amarra for Tidal although I worry about Tidal's longevity since, apart from the niche market for lossless, right now it's hard to see them competing long term with Apple Music and Spotify for compressed, especially since they don't offer a free tier to get you through the door.


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## omasciarotte

jeb listens said:


> If I feel like I can hear a difference I'll probably hold out for Amarra for Tidal although I worry about Tidal's longevity since, apart from the niche market for lossless, right now it's hard to see them competing long term with Apple Music and Spotify for compressed, especially since they don't offer a free tier to get you through the door.


 
  
 Hey Jeb,
  
 Since the Mastered for iTunes program started, Apple has been amassing a library of decent resolution masters that, some day, they could mine for a lossless service. Many factors are in play but, by the time Apple decides to do that, TIDAL will have cemented its place in the streaming services market, at least for a while…
  
 BTW, been testing Amarra for TIDAL for a while and have been comparing it to straight iTunes CD playback, TIDAL’s Mac OS standalone and TIDAL-via-Chrome. A4T wins hands down for SQ plus having Sonic EQ is mighty handy…


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## iamoneagain

jeb listens said:


> I'm curious , in the case of Apple Music, since HiFi handles files played via iTunes and Apple Music is now integrated into the iTunes desktop app is there any need for SQ (besides the additional EQ features) or is it still required since it is a streaming source?
> 
> Like you I'm kind of split between really liking the Apple interface but also really enjoying the quality of Tidal. I'll need to do some careful comparisons to see if I can justify the extra £10 a month for lossless Tidal since I keep reading that 256AAC - at least in theory - is considered to be an excellent codec at least on a par if not better than 320kbps MP3 and I know that in the past I have found it tough to distinguish between 320 and CD , although at times I've felt like I could and I'm sure some can.
> 
> If I feel like I can hear a difference I'll probably hold out for Amarra for Tidal although I worry about Tidal's longevity since, apart from the niche market for lossless, right now it's hard to see them competing long term with Apple Music and Spotify for compressed, especially since they don't offer a free tier to get you through the door.


 

 I'm not sure you can use HiFi for the streaming part.  I have the regular Amarra program and I'll test it.  But I think you'll need sQ to handle to new Apple Music part.
  
 And as far as Apple offering lossless, there were rumors over a year ago that the iTunes store was going to be offering them.  They also though could even be in 24/96K format.  They have asked all the record label to provide in 24/96 format, so I think it's all in place.


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## KC33

I wound up doing a trial on the regular Amarra 3.0. I did a playlist yesterday and it did sound more vibrant. I'm not sure I understand the difference between the package of SQ and HiFi vs. Amarra 3.0. (except that the package is 50 bucks as opposed to 99.) I will be using it for streaming Apple music which includes my own music exclusively. Otherwise I use my DAP and or amp. Do you guys think that for streaming one might be more suited than the other?


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## Jeb Listens

omasciarotte said:


> Hey Jeb,
> 
> Since the Mastered for iTunes program started, Apple has been amassing a library of decent resolution masters that, some day, they could mine for a lossless service. Many factors are in play but, by the time Apple decides to do that, TIDAL will have cemented its place in the streaming services market, at least for a while…
> 
> BTW, been testing Amarra for TIDAL for a while and have been comparing it to straight iTunes CD playback, TIDAL’s Mac OS standalone and TIDAL-via-Chrome. A4T wins hands down for SQ plus having Sonic EQ is mighty handy…




very cool - makes me excited for Amarra for Tidal! Can you share anything else about the user experience and interface? Plus do you have any info on any kind of firm release date - are they still compiling your feedback?

Jeb


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## iamoneagain

I just tested the Apple Music streaming part with Amarra 3.0 in integrated mode and it does not work.  But Amarra sQ does. 
  
 The reason you might choose Amarra 3.0 over Hifi is you can use cache and playlist mode which should improve the sound even more. I have not heard Hifi but I do hear an improvement just using playlist mode vs integrated mode with Amarra 3.0.


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## Jeb Listens

iamoneagain said:


> And as far as Apple offering lossless, there were rumors over a year ago that the iTunes store was going to be offering them.  They also though could even be in 24/96K format.  They have asked all the record label to provide in 24/96 format, so I think it's all in place.




thats good to hear - I do feel it will be a lot easier for services with established user bases on free/compressed tariffs to convince people to upgrade to losless rather than starting from scratch as Tidal is, especially if Apple were to undercut them e.g £15, which I'm sure they could quite easily do. 

I guess my doubt is that losless is always likely to be a small market by Apple's standards unless there's a big shift in the market - but if anyone can convince people to buy something they may not really "need" its probably Apple. Certainly more so than Neil Young.

Sure it would somewhat devalue all of the music thousands of people already bought at 256 but they already did that once when they switched from 128 and if we see a huge shift towards streaming with Apple Music it won't matter anyway since there's no ownership.

We'll see! In the meantime its Amarra for Tidal for me. Cheers guys!

Jeb


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## iamoneagain

My guess is Apple thought of offering lossless at one point but that shifted once they bought Beats.  Put all the effort into just getting Apple Music ready.  Then in a year to make things new and exciting, can offer lossless tier streaming and 24/96K downloads to buy.  Have Apple Tv include coaxial outputs and 24/96K to hook up to hi-end stereo.  Have new iphones capable of playing 24/96K and make claim of offering the best included headphones.  
  
 It may be a niche maker right now but they can do like others are doing and offer Apple Music to hardware manufactures.  They already said it's coming to Sonos.  So market 256K AAC perfect for all you mobile needs and lossless perfect for all your home needs.  Probably even have the Beats hardware devision crank out some supposed hi-end home equipment.
  
 As said, I don't see Tidal sticking around in the long run.  I just hope they stay around long enough until the other guys start offering lossless.  Maybe Spotify buys them out.  But not even sure a buyout is necessary since can probably do on their own.


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## Jeb Listens

Great observations! I do hope this all comes to pass. 





iamoneagain said:


> My guess is Apple thought of offering lossless at one point but that shifted once they bought Beats.  Put all the effort into just getting Apple Music ready.  Then in a year to make things new and exciting, can offer lossless tier streaming and 24/96K downloads to buy.  Have Apple Tv include coaxial outputs and 24/96K to hook up to hi-end stereo.  Have new iphones capable of playing 24/96K and make claim of offering the best included headphones.
> 
> It may be a niche maker right now but they can do like others are doing and offer Apple Music to hardware manufactures.  They already said it's coming to Sonos.  So market 256K AAC perfect for all you mobile needs and lossless perfect for all your home needs.  Probably even have the Beats hardware devision crank out some supposed hi-end home equipment


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## omasciarotte

jeb listens said:


> very cool - makes me excited for Amarra for Tidal! Can you share anything else about the user experience and interface? Plus do you have any info on any kind of firm release date - are they still compiling your feedback?


 
  
 Hey Jeb,
  
 Here's a pic:

 Since Amarra for TIDAL is audio-only, with no videos like the regular TIDAL players, it streamlines things a bit. The UI is pretty self-explanatory (and subject to change so don’t be shocked if it does). Sorry, no info as to a release.
  
 Unless I’m testing, I mostly listen via AirPlay on my main system while I work. It’s nice to read a review and immediately pull up the album to listen…


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## Jeb Listens

omasciarotte said:


> Hey Jeb,
> 
> Here's a pic:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Omasciarotte, 
  
 awesome - thanks for the sneak peak - the  "look" seems okay to me, perhaps not quite as polished as Tidal's own desktop app (which I quite like), but perhaps that's just to be expected - although it does bother me a little but I will reserve judgement on that until it's finalised and i've seen it in the flesh.  Definitely looking forward to giving this a go though.   After trying Tidal and demoing SQ+, I'm a *believer*.
  
 I've had it with CDs - recently took the last of mine to the local Charity shop....  they didn't even want my VHS tapes.  
  
 Jeb.


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## KC33

I spoke with someone at Sonic Studio yesterday regarding Amara 3.0. It was an extremely helpful conversation which lasted almost an hour. No hype, sales pitch or anything of the sort. At any rate we did a remote with my Mac and went over a ton of options, some of which was over my head but interesting nonetheless. 
  
 Bottom line, Amarra 3.0 is wonderful for *local* music. HiFi is an option as well but I didn't listen to it. For lack of a better description, it's a dumbed down Amarra 3.0 for local music.
  
 Amarra does not work for streaming unless you are using your own music,* locally. *So, if you were to use Apple Music and have your music on there as well it would work fine. But, you're not actually streaming at that point.
  
 If you just want to use a Sonic Studio product for streaming, that's where SQ/SQ+ comes in to play. I used it all day yesterday and it sounds good. However, I have Boom2 which actually works quite well. After comparing the two I see no reason to change. If I didn't already have Boom2 I might pick SQ but I would do a more extensive A/B before deciding. IMO there's no reason to have both.
  
 One thing is for certain and that's that Sonic Studio is passionate about their products and went above and beyond in explaining how it all works. If you do call them don't hesitate to leave a message, as I did. My call was returned within 30 minutes.


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## longbowbbs

I really enjoy Amarra. Always great to see how they stand so firmly behind their product!


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## Jeb Listens

I agree it's always nice to hear you can receive such attentive and personal support.  Great stuff.  
  
 It seems like we're at an exciting moment for Streaming audio.  I'm not sure if this is opening a can of worms but in general is there any reason that locally played music would sound different/better than streamed music assuming they are the same album/master/resolution and your internet bandwidth is sufficient to offer uninterrupted play when streamed?


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## pigmode

Recently upgraded to 3.0 Symphony. Amarra still has a seriously crap gui, plus why have a parametric equalizer and have only 5 bands?


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## iamoneagain

So I just got the Amarra newsletter and it says Amarra for Tidal is coming out July 7th for the Mac and Windows version is on it's way.  I would assume the Windows one would be out a month later based on the original schedule but who knows.


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## iamoneagain

Amarra for Tidal is finally available for the Mac.  Haven't time to do any testing.  Only saw webpage is updated.


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## Jeb Listens

iamoneagain said:


> Amarra for Tidal is finally available for the Mac.  Haven't time to do any testing.  Only saw webpage is updated.


 

 Nice one! Thanks - downloaded and testing it now! Will post impressions tomorrow.


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## Jeb Listens

I'll be interested to hear other people's experiences in case this is partly an issue with my bandwidth but everything seems very slow and navigation seems very clunky to me - searches are slow to return results & the whole thing seems to get confused and laboured very easily.   Visually and intuitively it's like taking a step back 10 years.   Playing the files however is fine and just as quick as the Tidal App.
  
 However good it sounds, in its current form there's no way this could replace the Tidal App for me. It would drive me crazy.   I guess right now I'm feeling it would be preferable if Amarra just piggy-backed the Tidal desktop app for playback only (like HiFi does iTunes) rather than attempt to approximate the whole navigation and user experience.   That probably means that SQ is going to be best for me unless this gets some serious revision. 
  
 Sonically, after an hour of testing I do feel that it offers *perhaps* a slight improvement but its very close to call at least to my ears and with my equipment.  
  
 I commend Amarra and wish them luck in all they are doing and hope that this will, in time, become a little more polished. 
  
  
 Jeb.


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## iamoneagain

jeb listens said:


> I'll be interested to hear other people's experiences in case this is partly an issue with my bandwidth but everything seems very slow and navigation seems very clunky to me - searches are slow to return results & the whole thing seems to get confused and laboured very easily.   Visually and intuitively it's like taking a step back 10 years.   Playing the files however is fine and just as quick as the Tidal App.
> 
> However good it sounds, in its current form there's no way this could replace the Tidal App for me. It would drive me crazy.   I guess right now I'm feeling it would be preferable if Amarra just piggy-backed the Tidal desktop app for playback only (like HiFi does iTunes) rather than attempt to approximate the whole navigation and user experience.   That probably means that SQ is going to be best for me unless this gets some serious revision.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, I like the Tidal app much better than the Amarra one. And Tidal one isn't even that great compared to Spotify.  Like you, I wish they were able to just build something into the Tidal app itself to improve sound quality.  The interface didn't need to be remade.  
  
 On the positive side, I do hear all the things the newsletter talks about.  Wider soundstage, better dynamic, and a blacker background.  I also like the fact that it preloads multiple tracks so when you skip to the next one, it's instant.  So if sound quality is your top priority and you can forgive the clunky interface, Amarra is your best bet.
  
 This is kind of like there other players.  I find their stuff the clunkiest but in the end it sounds the best in my system.  I've tried over and over to use Audirvana + but it's just not as musical sounding as Amarra.  I think HQ Player was equal if not better but there is no ALAC support and their interface isn't great either.  Think the ultimate solution will be with Roon and HQ Player integrated. Then have a great interface that combines your home and Tidal music with all sorts of meta data and discovery features and best sound quality.  I suppose you could Roon now with Amarra sQ but still not going to be as good sounding as Amarra for Tidal.


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## Jeb Listens

iamoneagain said:


> Yeah, I like the Tidal app much better than the Amarra one. And Tidal one isn't even that great compared to Spotify.  Like you, I wish they were able to just build something into the Tidal app itself to improve sound quality.  The interface didn't need to be remade.
> 
> On the positive side, I do hear all the things the newsletter talks about.  Wider soundstage, better dynamic, and a blacker background.  I also like the fact that it preloads multiple tracks so when you skip to the next one, it's instant.  So if sound quality is your top priority and you can forgive the clunky interface, Amarra is your best bet.
> 
> This is kind of like there other players.  I find their stuff the clunkiest but in the end it sounds the best in my system.  I've tried over and over to use Audirvana + but it's just not as musical sounding as Amarra.  I think HQ Player was equal if not better but there is no ALAC support and their interface isn't great either.  Think the ultimate solution will be with Roon and HQ Player integrated. Then have a great interface that combines your home and Tidal music with all sorts of meta data and discovery features and best sound quality.  I suppose you could Roon now with Amarra sQ but still not going to be as good sounding as Amarra for Tidal.


 

 I think you are bang-on the money with your points about meta-data features etc & by the sounds of it I need to give Roon a trial too.   With giving up physical media, looks/info are very important to me and when I'm playing an album I want to be able to leave the screen displaying an attractive high res picture of the album/artist.  I want to be able to see all my favourite albums laid out beautifully. 
  
 It seems like so far of all the services/players I have tried none of them can quite pull it all together.   I have some hopes for Apple Music via iTunes but disappointingly at the moment that seems to be very buggy to me too - some of the features seem to disappear then reappear and currently performing searches only seems to bring up artist radio stations.  
  
 Having said that the home-screen is very attractive and apple seems to understand the importance of creating an attractive personalised interface which will help people discover new music.  It has a nice mix of some very interesting well thought out playlists and album selections based on the very few preferences I specified (e.g.  "_Bob Dylan's Bitter Break-Up Songs"  or "Sufjan Stevens Deep Cuts").   _This is in contrast to the jumbled mess on the Tidal app home-screen, which is a shame because they obviously have some very nice curated content too once you start digging down into the genres.
  
 It seems like we're in the middle of a bit of a confused time now with everybody rushing to market with services which don't quite tick all the boxes.  Hopefully in time one will surface that ticks all of mine.  For now it's probably going to be either Apple Music or Tidal with Amarra SQ.  Must check out Roon though! wow.... pricey!
  
 Jeb


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## iamoneagain

I'll keep this short since this is an Amarra thread, but I just tried Roon and it's everything I was complaining Amarra for Tidal and the Tidal app are missing.  It had some much data.  The artists albums are in order by year and you can even reverse the order.  There are star ratings to know which are the better ones.  Bios and links to similar, influenced, followed artists.  It even has lyrics on most songs.  It also combines your local library with Tidal.
  
 I'll give Amarra for Tidal a very slight win for sound quality but if you enable exclusive mode and integer mode in Roon, it has really great sound. Just missing a hint of sweetness.  I enjoy this sound mode more than running it through Amarra sQ since it looses a little dynamics and black background going thru Soundstream first.  But the interface is incredible, so might be worth the very slight hit in sound quality.
  
 So my only question is the price worth it?  I can get Amarra for Tidal for $40 and have better sound quality with a clunky interface.  I could just stick with Tidal app and use Amarra sQ, which I got for free for being a long time Amarra user.  Or I could pay out over $100 for Roon.  I'll test all my options over the trial period and see what I end up with.  Right now music discovery is high on my list since Tidal has a huge library and I don't just want to play what I've already owned or familiar with.  The Tidal app has some discovery features and I have other sites I can use but it's nice to have built into the app itself.  Right now Amarra for Tidal has no discover features but I'm sure will be added over time.  I just don't see it being anything like Roon has done.


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## Jeb Listens

iamoneagain said:


> I'll keep this short since this is an Amarra thread, but I just tried Roon and it's everything I was complaining Amarra for Tidal and the Tidal app are missing.  It had some much data.  The artists albums are in order by year and you can even reverse the order.  There are star ratings to know which are the better ones.  Bios and links to similar, influenced, followed artists.  It even has lyrics on most songs.  It also combines your local library with Tidal.
> 
> I'll give Amarra for Tidal a very slight win for sound quality but if you enable exclusive mode and integer mode in Roon, it has really great sound. Just missing a hint of sweetness.  I enjoy this sound mode more than running it through Amarra sQ since it looses a little dynamics and black background going thru Soundstream first.  But the interface is incredible, so might be worth the very slight hit in sound quality.
> 
> So my only question is the price worth it?  I can get Amarra for Tidal for $40 and have better sound quality with a clunky interface.  I could just stick with Tidal app and use Amarra sQ, which I got for free for being a long time Amarra user.  Or I could pay out over $100 for Roon.  I'll test all my options over the trial period and see what I end up with.  Right now music discovery is high on my list since Tidal has a huge library and I don't just want to play what I've already owned or familiar with.  The Tidal app has some discovery features and I have other sites I can use but it's nice to have built into the app itself.  Right now Amarra for Tidal has no discover features but I'm I'll sure will be added over time.  I just don't see it being anything like Roon has done.


 

 Awesome as you say... it's an Amarra thread so i'll also be brief but I feel like all of this talk is relevant for comparisons! 
  
 I've been experimenting more with Amarra for Tidal and I do agree that the sound quality is very good indeed - to my ears 2 elements that l feel relatively comfortable speaking about are extra depth and sparkle up top.  Could be placebo.  I do feel the difference is quite subtle and i'm still in somewhat of a honey-moon period with Tidal anyway given the improvement I felt over Spotify.    It's a shame the interface of Amara is so disappointing especially when it accompanies the premium service from Tidal.
  
 I'm going to give Roon a go -  it put me off slightly that they wanted card details up-front and you can only cancel by email... especially when such large sums of money are involved - but I'm sure it'll be fine!
  
 I watched a video of someone giving a walk-through of Roon -  it did look very nice but I'd like to ask you how effective you think it would be using it _solely_ for Tidal music as opposed to it being primarily used for local media and it being a nice option for Tidal to fill in the gaps?  I have some local media but certainly not enough to form a real foundation for how the whole thing would work.
  
 The other issue I guess I would have with it is that I presume you can't make playlists in Roon that would simultaneously appear in Tidal for offline syncing on iPhone for my music on the go?  In that sense I guess I would find myself using the Tidal desktop app as well... which isn't ideal.  Perhaps these features will get added in time?
  
 Although Roon is pricey its one of the few times where it seems like good value for us UK'ers.  For Tidal $19.99 apparently = £19.99 whereas $10 (£6.50) a month for Roon doesn't seem so bad.


----------



## iamoneagain

jeb listens said:


> Awesome as you say... it's an Amarra thread so i'll also be brief but I feel like all of this talk is relevant for comparisons!
> 
> I've been experimenting more with Amarra for Tidal and I do agree that the sound quality is very good indeed - to my ears 2 elements that l feel relatively comfortable speaking about are extra depth and sparkle up top.  Could be placebo.  I do feel the difference is quite subtle and i'm still in somewhat of a honey-moon period with Tidal anyway given the improvement I felt over Spotify.    It's a shame the interface of Amara is so disappointing especially when it accompanies the premium service from Tidal.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think it would work fine for just Tidal as well. When you click on a genre or do a search, it's always combined with your local albums first and then a Tidal section.  So yours would mostly just have the Tidal section.  I haven't figured out the playlist feature yet.  I did give Roon a try over a month ago (for a day) when I thought it would be a great way to find Playlists for Tidal.  At the time it only made playlist within Roon that didn't show up in Tidal.  I emailed to cancel with my complaints and they said this feature was coming within the next month and asked if I wanted an extension on the trial.  I just canceled.  I only tried it again after frustration with the Tidal app and now Amarra's. 
  
 For me, when I go to an artist, I want to see their albums laid out in chronological order by when they were originally released.  Not mixed up because of rereleases.   It's also nice to have a review of the album right there. Roon gives you that.  They also have it genres broken down it's all these sub-genres, to narrow down your selection.  And then the I believe they have a much larger list of similar artist, laid out by similar, influenced, and followed.  So pretty much what last.fm would show you built right in.
  
 I believe Amarra for Tidal's approach is sound quality over everything else first.  So they have cache play with preloaded track, which is a great feature.  I'm not sure I understand why the artwork and all the other info takes so long to load.  I have a playlist with over 2500 songs and it takes forever. On Tidal and Roon, it's instant.
  
 So I think if I post anything more about Roon, I'll do it in Roon thread, unless it's more of a direct comparison to Amarra.


----------



## Jeb Listens

Cool good plan - I will post on the Roon thread too though at some point will combine with Amara SQ too.


----------



## bobeau

I just downloaded a trial of Amarra for Tidal today.  Have been using Amarra SQ w/ Tidal for maybe 4-5 months to this point.
  
 I was prepared to hate it, the UI leaves me somewhat non-plussed (no hardware controls, really??).  The quick skip-ahead is great though.  But I certainly wasn't going to shell out $40 for what I thought would be a marginal sound quality improvement at best.
  
 On that note... I couldn't believe it.  With my modest rMBP -> Concero HP -> IE800 setup, this over the Tidal/SQ combo is a clear audible improvement.  To be fair in some ways I like just the Tidal app by itself vs. Tidal + SQ... SQ seems to somewhat sweeten/diffuse the sound a bit.  But this is unmistakenly a solid leap forward.  
  
 Prior to Tidal I was using MOG/Beats for the past few years - to me this is just as much as a jump forward as was moving from Beats to Tidal w/ their native player.  If you can get over the UX issues it's a no-brainer, and for sure check out the app in trial mode.


----------



## omasciarotte

Originally posted by *pigmode* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  


> …Amarra still has a seriously crap gui, plus why have a parametric equalizer and have only 5 bands?


 
  
 The UI is a personal preference but, I’m curious why you’d want more than 5 bands of EQ…


----------



## pigmode

db Quote: 





omasciarotte said:


> Originally posted by *pigmode* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Check out the link in my signature--not knowing anything about the use of equalizers, it was simpler to use  iTunes.  I did however do a $50. upgrade to Amarra Symphony, and have been playing with it today.
  
 Its a four band equalizer. The current settings i'm playing with:
 f - 18000, 8000, 4000, 1000
 db - 3.5, 3.5, 2.0, 0.0
 Q - 1.5, 2.5, 1.0, 1.0
  
  
  
 P.S. The above is great for the Grado RS-2i, but the Senn IE800 might be a different story, or at least a more complicated adjustment. The latter probably needing to be turned down across the lower midrange as well.


----------



## omasciarotte

pigmode said:


> Check out the link in my signature--not knowing anything about the use of equalizers, it was simpler to use  iTunes.  I did however do a $50. upgrade to Amarra Symphony, and have been playing with it today.
> 
> Its a four band equalizer. The current settings i'm playing with:
> f - 18000, 8000, 4000, 1000
> ...


 
  
 Hey man,
  
 You didn’t mention which flavors of EQ you’re using; parametric, shelf, etc. but, from the look of your setting, it seems you’re going for a pleasing sound rather than corrective measures.
  
 You may want to try a preset I created for my Etymotics but would be a good starting point for personal customization of your IE800. Since I don’t have permissions to do it, I can’t attach a ZIP’d SQ2 file, Amarra’s preset file format. Instead, if you head over to seneschal.net and contact me via the Contact page, I’ll e-mail it to you. UnZip it and save it somewhere that you’ll remember its location. Select it with the OPEN button, switch to FLAT then to CUSTOM and the preset should then be “in circuit,” allowing you to listen and muck about with it.


----------



## pigmode

2, Quote: 





omasciarotte said:


> pigmode said:
> 
> 
> > Check out the link in my signature--not knowing anything about the use of equalizers, it was simpler to use  iTunes.  I did however do a $50. upgrade to Amarra Symphony, and have been playing with it today.
> ...


 
  
  
 Thanks for the offer--email sent. 
  
 I'm using parametric setting, but really need to research and test some of the other settings. Today I'm using this set for the MBP > ie800, the system I think I'll try to set up Amarra for specifically.
  
  
 f: 14000, 6000, 2000, 800
 db: 2.4, 2.2, -2, -2
 Q: 2.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0
  
 Now that I'm in the ball park with equalization, I may also be back in the camp where Amarra is almost indispensable.


----------



## bigtube

I don't know about 1450$ for it I will ask my dealer. I paid 650$ and like it. It has A IRC filter that you can control the speed at which frequencies come to your ears.


----------



## toby23

My experience with Amarra for Tidal has been awful.
 While the sound is better than the default, the rest of the experience is horrible.
  
 - The customer service ignores my queries on why the app doesn't work (custom EQ won't save/load).
 - The UI experience is horribly awkward and uncomfortable to use, sometimes albums require multiple clicks before they load the track listing, sometimes nothing happens at all.
 - The green progress bar is a constant reminder of a sluggish and badly written piece of software
 - The whole thing is so slow and ungainly, it makes what should be a pleasure a chore.
 - The EQ will not load my saved presets and will not save a preset between closing and opening the app
  
 Then I discovered Roon.

 While Roon could be considered expensive, I personally love the sound quality and the user experience is *absolutely fantastic *and has reinvigorated my passion for discovering music, which is what I loved about Spotify and am now enjoying again with Tidal.
  
 Roon is everything that Amarra for Tidal isn't.
  
 I know that there is a lot of love for the Amarra sound but I have not been convinced by it.
 I also tried running Tidal through the Amarra SQ+ and found the quality was worse than the Amarra for Tidal app.
  
 I know this sounds like marketing for Roon but I have been totally converted and am now considering a lifetime sub.


----------



## bobeau

toby23 said:


> I know this sounds like marketing for Roon but I have been totally converted and am now considering a lifetime sub.


 
  
 I posted a glowing comment about the sound of Amarra for Tidal earlier in this thread... having played with Roon for the past couple weeks, I went ahead purchased a lifetime sub for that.
  
 I'm not sure what Amarra is doing, but there is something about the sound that makes the stage seem larger, almost like a surround-sound DSP of some sort, and it does seem to sweeten the sound... like the difference between using the IIR vs. Apodizing filter on my Concero HP.  OTOH, Roon seems to have better dynamics/detail.  Depending on my mood I can see preferring Amarra, but the interface is just so terrible that I have trouble supporting the company.  Roon is such a joy to use.


----------



## iamoneagain

Well you can still use Roon with Amarra sQ+ and get the Amarra sound quality.  While Roon on it's own sounds a little more dynamic since I can set it to exclusive integer mode, when I use thru sQ+, it sweetens the sound and add more depth.
  
 I tried to use Amarra for Tidal again and the interface is just terrible.  It takes away from any sound improvements.  But in this review, it states a "web-based overhaul is slated to arrive in a month or two; something our man from California promises will be _“prettier and faster”_.  So if and when this release comes out, I'll try it again.  I don't think it will ever be as good as the Roon interface but if it could be like the native Tidal app, I'd be happy.
  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/07/amarra-for-tidal-a-better-streaming-sound-for-os-x-windows/
  
 Edit: Not sure if something is wrong but the current version Amarra sQ+ sound terrible.  I just tried sQ+ and soundstage is all compressed.  So hold off on current sQ+ version until next update.  I believe you can still download the regular sQ one. I have a free copy of just sQ from being a Amarra owner and it sounds great.


----------



## hearhead

Any new DAP that can support Amarra besides a smartphone?


----------



## mgunin

Amarra 4 is finally out! Wondering if anyone had a chance to try it?


----------



## winders

mgunin said:


> Amarra 4 is finally out! Wondering if anyone had a chance to try it?


 

 I tried Amarra 3 and Amarra 4. I didn't really like either version. The UI sucked on both and my music sounds better with other apps. I've been trying several audio apps on my Mac and I keep coming back to Audirvana Plus as the best choice for me. In fact, after trying Amarra 4, I pulled the trigger and bought Audirvana Plus.


----------



## mgunin

winders said:


> I tried Amarra 3 and Amarra 4. I didn't really like either version. The UI sucked on both and my music sounds better with other apps. I've been trying several audio apps on my Mac and I keep coming back to Audirvana Plus as the best choice for me. In fact, after trying Amarra 4, I pulled the trigger and bought Audirvana Plus.


 
  
 Audirvana is definitely a great all-rounder in terms of SQ, convenience and format support.
  
 Still, I mainly use Amarra 2.6 due to its smooth, analog-like sound (version 3 is more analytical to my ears, although it's very subjective).
  
 Some testimonials say that Audirvana 2 has better SQ than 1.5, but I still had not tried to upgrade.


----------



## winders

mgunin said:


> Audirvana is definitely a great all-rounder in terms of SQ, convenience and format support.
> 
> Still, I mainly use Amarra 2.6 due to its smooth, analog-like sound (version 3 is more analytical to my ears, although it's very subjective).
> 
> Some testimonials say that Audirvana 2 has better SQ than 1.5, but I still had not tried to upgrade.


 

 I didn't do a lot of critical listening. But I did enough to know that Audirvana Plus 2.6.5 sound noticeably better than either version of Amarra. Most of my music is CD-based audio and most of that is bought or ripped at 256 kbps VBR. With both headphones and speakers the sound was more full and realistic.
  
 Audirvana is able to bypass Apple's core sound routines allowing to talk to the DAC more directly. My DAC supports "Integer" mode and I Audirvana supports that too. I setup Audirvana to upsample the music to a format my DAT would accept without upsampling. I am still playing with that as my DAC may do a better job of upsampling. I am using no software to alter the signal. No EQ or anything like that. Just the standard settings.


----------



## mgunin

I guess it's time for me to try the latest version of Audirvana. BTW, V3 is expected soon according to the website.


----------



## winders

It's supposed to drop today...we'll see.
  
 I should add that I really wanted to like something else. I would prefer software with more engineers behind it. As best as I can tell, Audirvana is a one man show.


----------



## longboy

For me, it's a only a ten-buck upgrade that includes a free upgrade to Amarra 4 Deluxe, when it's released. So, I'm using it, needless to say. So far, I don't see any particular improvement, other than that, now, the art-work always appears, but it's almost too tiny to see.

My conclusion thus far is that this is clearly meant to replace minor-league apps like Hi-Fi, S, S+, and Tidal and not the _real_ Amarra and *surely* not Amarra Symphony!

But, what do you expect for a sawbuck? I can't complain.

Why not take advantage of the fifteen-day free trial and decide for yourself?


----------



## MacedonianHero

Just importing my 11,000 albums now into Amarra 4. I did get to play with it at RMAF and loved the GUI and quick interface. Should be ready to use by the time I head off to bed.


----------



## sling5s

Compared to Amarra 3, I do find Amarra 4 slightly more cleaner and detailed....and dare to say the soundstage wider. But this maybe all just placebo affect. 
 I do like that I can just use Amarra independent of iTunes.


----------



## MacedonianHero

sling5s said:


> Compared to Amarra 3, I do find Amarra 4 slightly more cleaner and detailed....and dare to say the soundstage wider. But this maybe all just placebo affect.
> I do like that I can just use Amarra independent of iTunes.


 
  
 The GUI and responsiveness is miles and miles better!


----------



## Menez1812

Anyone know if Amarra 4 supports gapless playback?


----------



## mgunin

menez1812 said:


> Anyone know if Amarra 4 supports gapless playback?


 
  
 Yes, it should: http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/videos_gapless_playback.php


----------



## boblauer

macedonianhero said:


> Just importing my 11,000 albums now into Amarra 4. I did get to play with it at RMAF and loved the GUI and quick interface. Should be ready to use by the time I head off to bed.


 
  
 I have the opposite experience. I got Amarra 4 bundled with my Cavalli LC and it's never worked on a windows PC. I'm running Win 7 Pro, work constraint cannot upgrade, using a USB 3.0 2 TB external, when I initially contacted Sonic Studio when I got the amp they said it should work. Foobar loads but not Amarra. I've opened a ticket, they have not tested on a Win 7 machine. I have @10,000 songs 3.1 gb library, all flac files 44.1 thru 96 no DSD or higher res flac. Was looking for better sq than Foobar and this simply does not work, stay away if your a Win 7 PC, at least it was sort of free. Can't comment on SQ or GUI. What are other's alternatives for a Win 7 PC


----------



## jcn3

boblauer said:


> What are other's alternatives for a Win 7 PC


 
 you seem to have rejected foobar as an option -- with the right configuration it sounds quite good.  jriver is a very popular alternative and very good software.


----------



## MacedonianHero

boblauer said:


> I have the opposite experience. I got Amarra 4 bundled with my Cavalli LC and it's never worked on a windows PC. I'm running Win 7 Pro, work constraint cannot upgrade, using a USB 3.0 2 TB external, when I initially contacted Sonic Studio when I got the amp they said it should work. Foobar loads but not Amarra. I've opened a ticket, they have not tested on a Win 7 machine. I have @10,000 songs 3.1 gb library, all flac files 44.1 thru 96 no DSD or higher res flac. Was looking for better sq than Foobar and this simply does not work, stay away if your a Win 7 PC, at least it was sort of free. Can't comment on SQ or GUI. What are other's alternatives for a Win 7 PC


 
 I'm using my iMac with it and its been quite good.


----------



## aamefford

Amarra 4 is a pretty decent interface.  It really needs drag and drop play capability for times when you want to play music that is not in your regular library, and it needs a simple 3 or 4 band parametric EQ, or at least a 10 band or so graphic eq.
  
 My biggest gripe though, is sometimes I want to play something from a memory card or something, and it wants to import the info that into my library database as well.  I don't want it in my library database, I just want to play it from the current location.  I haven't played with it too much yet, so hopefully it has this capability, and I'm just missing something.


----------



## WNBC

Same gripe as well.  Maybe I've also missed it, but with the previous version we did have that option.  
  
 Am I missing the custom 3 or 4 parametric EQ function like in the previous version?  Everything seems to be presets.
  
  
 Quote:


aamefford said:


> My biggest gripe though, is sometimes I want to play something from a memory card or something, and it wants to import the info that into my library database as well.  I don't want it in my library database, *I just want to play it from the current location*.  I haven't played with it too much yet, so hopefully it has this capability, and I'm just missing something.


----------



## mwhals

I tried Amarra 4 with my 9400 song library. I found it very lagging on my Windows 10 machine that has a fast 6 core processor and 64 GB of RAM. 

When scrolling, the software was slow to respond.

Anyone else seeing this issue?


----------



## WNBC

I only have a portion of my library on my laptop, maybe 3000 songs, and there is a bit of lag when scrolling or switching to a new song that is say far down the playlist.  There is some cache so skipping to the next song has no lag.  I imagine if I added the full library everything would slow down a lot more.  Overall, a little slow, but so far not bad enough to make me regret it.  Seems like the cache is smaller compared to the previous version.         
  
  
  
 Quote:


mwhals said:


> I tried Amarra 4 with my 9400 song library. I found it very lagging on my Windows 10 machine that has a fast 6 core processor and 64 GB of RAM.
> 
> When scrolling, the software was slow to respond.
> 
> Anyone else seeing this issue?


----------



## mwhals

I ended up buying JRiver Media Player 22 today. I listened to both Amarra 4 and Media Player and they both sounded great. The inability to select music by genre with Amarra 4 was the reason I chose Media Center.


----------



## Mediahound (Jun 6, 2017)

I hate the new Amarra 4 in terms of the interface and lack of custom eq. It sounds pretty good though no better than the prior version, IMO.

When trying to use it to add albums to it, etc., I keep thinking to myself "What were they thinking? Did they not test things?" Because sometimes you try to add something and it doesn't even show up in Amarra 4. I'm glad I got it free because I would never pay for something this faulty.


----------



## Denio

Mediahound said:


> I hate the new Amarra 4 in terms of the interface and lack of custom eq. It sounds pretty good though no better than the prior version, IMO.
> 
> When trying to use it to add albums to it, etc., I keep thinking to myself "What were they thinking? Did they not test things?" Because sometimes you try to add something and it doesn't even show up in Amarra 4. I'm glad I got it free because I would never pay for something this faulty.


I got the exact same feeling while demoing several players. The last two of the bunch were Amarra and Audirvana (a few months ago) and it was a no-brainer. Amarra was extremely slow with a 35gig library I have setup for test purposes. I tried the same setup from SSD and from NAS over Wi-Fi. The interface was lagging like crazy no matter what I did and I was using a Macbook by the way. In terms of features I wanted to see custom plugins to be enabled, a bit more meta editing features, upsampling modes, yada yada. I felt this was more oriented towards new listeners or people who want a hassle-free software without any advanced settings that looks cool. But even for them I highly doubt it is nice to see the interface scrolling through albums in slow motion. I have written down my experiences to them and I was told there is a new version of Amarra 4 coming out and will notify me when it comes out. It should bring improvements. Let's see.. 

Right now I am sticking to Audirvana and I suppose it won't change (for my desktop playing) anytime soon.


----------



## mwhals

Denio said:


> I got the exact same feeling while demoing several players. The last two of the bunch were Amarra and Audirvana (a few months ago) and it was a no-brainer. Amarra was extremely slow with a 35gig library I have setup for test purposes. I tried the same setup from SSD and from NAS over Wi-Fi. The interface was lagging like crazy no matter what I did and I was using a Macbook by the way. In terms of features I wanted to see custom plugins to be enabled, a bit more meta editing features, upsampling modes, yada yada. I felt this was more oriented towards new listeners or people who want a hassle-free software without any advanced settings that looks cool. But even for them I highly doubt it is nice to see the interface scrolling through albums in slow motion. I have written down my experiences to them and I was told there is a new version of Amarra 4 coming out and will notify me when it comes out. It should bring improvements. Let's see..
> 
> Right now I am sticking to Audirvana and I suppose it won't change (for my desktop playing) anytime soon.



I have been told for months that improvements are being made. I got tired of waiting and am enjoying J River Media Center.


----------



## aamefford

aamefford said:


> Amarra 4 is a pretty decent interface.  It really needs drag and drop play capability for times when you want to play music that is not in your regular library, and it needs a simple 3 or 4 band parametric EQ, or at least a 10 band or so graphic eq.
> 
> My biggest gripe though, is sometimes I want to play something from a memory card or something, and it wants to import the info that into my library database as well.  I don't want it in my library database, I just want to play it from the current location.  I haven't played with it too much yet, so hopefully it has this capability, and I'm just missing something.



I've been playing with Amarra 4 Luxe trial for a couple of days now.  Tidal integration is pretty decent.  So is the option to show all local and Tidal "My Music" together at once.  Sort of.  I kinda like having my local stuff and Tidal stuff separate, which is a quick drop down menu button to change.

Luxe has a 4 band parametric EQ with a bunch of preset quality type filters with names that don't mean anything to me, and no documentation.  Good news - 4 band parametric EQ, finally.  Bad news - if you don't work on the Amarra development team, you have no idea What any of the stuff really means.  Hopefully, the Amarra team will develop documentation for the EQ at some point.  The EQ hides behind an "advanced" link on the 16 slightly useful to useless presets.

All in all - I like enough I think I'll pony up the $50 and upgrade from Amarra 4 to Luxe.


----------



## mwhals (Jul 3, 2017)

aamefford said:


> I've been playing with Amarra 4 Luxe trial for a couple of days now.  Tidal integration is pretty decent.  So is the option to show all local and Tidal "My Music" together at once.  Sort of.  I kinda like having my local stuff and Tidal stuff separate, which is a quick drop down menu button to change.
> 
> Luxe has a 4 band parametric EQ with a bunch of preset quality type filters with names that don't mean anything to me, and no documentation.  Good news - 4 band parametric EQ, finally.  Bad news - if you don't work on the Amarra development team, you have no idea What any of the stuff really means.  Hopefully, the Amarra team will develop documentation for the EQ at some point.  The EQ hides behind an "advanced" link on the 16 slightly useful to useless presets.
> 
> All in all - I like enough I think I'll pony up the $50 and upgrade from Amarra 4 to Luxe.



Have they improved the responsiveness when scrolling through large libraries? I really like the sound, but the sluggishness resulted in me getting J River Media Center. I am using a Windows machine, not a Mac.


----------



## aamefford

mwhals said:


> Have they improved the responsiveness when scrolling through large libraries? I really like the sound, but the sluggishness resulted in me getting J River Media Center. I am using a Windows machine, not a Mac.



Hmmmm, scrolling seems responsive enough - probably 100-ish GB library at the moment.  Opening the program is slow from click to ready to go.  Switching from local, to Tidal, to All is a bit slow.  I use a mid 2011 macbook air with a 1.6 gHz i5 and 4 GB of ram, so pretty low powered hardware.  It is definitely "good enough."  I haven't gotten my whole library in one place, that might get it up to 250 GB or so.  I'll report back once that's done.


----------



## mwhals

aamefford said:


> Hmmmm, scrolling seems responsive enough - probably 100-ish GB library at the moment.  Opening the program is slow from click to ready to go.  Switching from local, to Tidal, to All is a bit slow.  I use a mid 2011 macbook air with a 1.6 gHz i5 and 4 GB of ram, so pretty low powered hardware.  It is definitely "good enough."  I haven't gotten my whole library in one place, that might get it up to 250 GB or so.  I'll report back once that's done.



Thanks. I am using a self built PC with 64 GB of RAM, a 6 core processor and mid range gaming card and my 227GB library is more sluggish on Amarra 4 than any other software I have ever used.


----------



## sling5s

Anyone compare the Amarra 4 with Audirvana Plus 3


----------



## aamefford (Aug 5, 2017)

I did end up buying Amarra 4 luxe. The upgrade from 4 was only $25, based on when I bought either 4 or Amarra for tidal.  I actually (mostly) like the interface, the EQ, and the integration of local and tidal music. My big gripe, is it seems a bit temperamental and glitchy. It has a tendency to randomly randomly quit. I also find that start up is slow, and I need to scan Tidal virtually every time I start, to get albums loaded into each tidal artist in the artist view. I also need to pre-scroll through the artist queue in the remote app in order to get everything preloaded.

So, it sounds "good" and the integration with tidal plus and local music is nice. The interface is worlds better than v3.x, which behaved like a grade of "c" senior project.  4 luxe is a bit glitchy though not always. It seems to misbehave when I darken my 2011 MacBook Air screen completely and use the remote, but behave ok otherwise. Could be just the screen darkening, or my old, lower powered hardware too.

End result - it could be smoother, but I like it and use it regularly..


----------



## MooGoesTheCow

I have a copy of Amarra 4 Luxe and gave it a week on my work Mac before giving it up. It feels like an alpha software build -- not ready for primetime. At least on my machine, it had a number of problems:
1) It would regularly hang/crash at random times -- on startup, during playback, when loading an album into the library, etc.
2) The window was glued to the top left of the screen and I couldn't move it
3) DSD playback is not implemented

I've since moved to JRiver Media Center and haven't turned back. I'll probably give Luxe another shot in 6 months.just to see if it's gotten any better. But TBH I'm not missing anything with Media Center.


----------



## Mediahound

MooGoesTheCow said:


> I've since moved to JRiver Media Center and haven't turned back. I'll probably give Luxe another shot in 6 months.just to see if it's gotten any better. But TBH I'm not missing anything with Media Center.



JRiver seems really good for $50. I'm probably switching as well.


----------



## aamefford

Ive not heard much bad about Jriver. I'm pretty much done giving Amarra any more money. I like the idea of it, sound, interface etc. The implementation is fairly poor though. I still use it, but only because that and iTunes with bit perfect are my two options. Otherwise it's the ak100ii with optical out, which is surprisingly good.


----------



## Mediahound

The clip protection feature in JRiver has been a revelation. I use some EQ bass boost typically and realized with Amarra when I manually put the volume slider down a bit to compensate for the EQ, it was by a non exact amount, which lead to increased noise/decreased resolution.

JRiver does this adjustment automatically to prevent any digital clipping and seems to really provide a purer sound.


----------



## nicholas029

I see we are talking about mac programs other than Amarra, so perhaps this in not a thread crap.  I have A3 and liked the sound of it in general, but became frustrated with the bugginess and restrictions of everything Amarra.  I have a dedicated Macbook Pro running Pure Music with Fabfilter Pro Q2 as a plug in.  Pure Music is rock solid stable and the Fabfilter Pro is the best available software parametric EQ, extremely versatile if pricey, that I am aware of.  With a little practice you can make your source data sound anyway your want or need it to be.  I consider my current system perfect and I have been doing this a long time.  

I will not be downloading new versions of iTunes... ever.  iTunes is still a good organizer.  On that device, wifi is off so that Apple cloud will not interrupt - a potential cause of disturbance, IMO. 

One more thing, if you have a problem with PM, when you call,  Rob answers the phone himself and is even gracious when your questions are stupid.


----------



## redrich2000

Can I ask a few newb questions about Amarra... What I want to achieve is something that will run in the background and correctly set bit rate etc for BOTH my itunes library and the Tidal app. I used to use bitperfect but it doesn't work for Tidal. Can Amarra do this? And which of their apps do I need?


----------



## aamefford

Amarra 4 Luxe will do that. Sounds good, runs tidal and your library. Kinda crappy UI, remote app could be wonderful, but is glitchy instead. I use it regularly, but I can’t help but think some of the other options out there might be better.


----------



## redrich2000

Thanks. Is there anything cheaper that does the same thing?


----------



## WNBC

Anybody have experience with Amarra 4 on both Mac and Windows?  I primarily use a late 2013 MBr Pro.  I have an old Surface Pro 2 that I commissioned for music.  It's pretty slow, but works and I installed Amarra 4 on it.  Dare I say that Amarra 4 (ASIO) sounds better on Windows than on my Mac with same DAC/amp (iDSD BL) and headphones (HD660S).  Just a tad bit more air and transparency.   Enough to be noticeable.  Definitely could be placebo or volume matching but just checking to see if there are real differences.

Mac, buffer 1024, exclusive access
Surface (ASIO), buffer not choosable


----------



## omasciarotte

WNBC said:


> Anybody have experience with Amarra 4 on both Mac and Windows?  I primarily use a late 2013 MBr Pro.  I have an old Surface Pro 2 that I commissioned for music.  It's pretty slow, but works and I installed Amarra 4 on it.  Dare I say that Amarra 4 (ASIO) sounds better on Windows than on my Mac with same DAC/amp (iDSD BL) and headphones (HD660S).  Just a tad bit more air and transparency.   Enough to be noticeable.  Definitely could be placebo or volume matching but just checking to see if there are real differences.



Hey WNBC,

I have not noticed any differences but your Win driver may be a contributing factor. Even though you’re using the same hardware on both platforms, that DAC is mediated through either a driver, in the case of Win, or not since macOS supports it directly. you might want to try applying a teensy bit of HF shelf in Advanced EQ on your macOS version to see if you can “equalize,” in the old skool sense, the two platforms.


----------



## WNBC

Good points.  Will definitely play with EQ a bit.  Amarra 4 coordinating 350 albums runs pretty slow on a Surface Pro 2.  



omasciarotte said:


> Hey WNBC,
> 
> I have not noticed any differences but your Win driver may be a contributing factor. Even though you’re using the same hardware on both platforms, that DAC is mediated through either a driver, in the case of Win, or not since macOS supports it directly. you might want to try applying a teensy bit of HF shelf in Advanced EQ on your macOS version to see if you can “equalize,” in the old skool sense, the two platforms.


----------



## Chopin75

mgunin said:


> Amarra 4 is finally out! Wondering if anyone had a chance to try it?


Which one do u prefer now, audirvana vs Amarra may I ask?


----------



## Chopin75

winders said:


> I tried Amarra 3 and Amarra 4. I didn't really like either version. The UI sucked on both and my music sounds better with other apps. I've been trying several audio apps on my Mac and I keep coming back to Audirvana Plus as the best choice for me. In fact, after trying Amarra 4, I pulled the trigger and bought Audirvana Plus.


How is audirvana going for u? Does it do Multi-ch? Easy to use? Sound better than Other software?  I am think of getting audivana for MacBook or a MacMini


----------



## Left Channel

@Chopin75 over on ComputerAudiophile people have been complaining endlessly about Ammara 4 bugs and shortcomings, especially library issues. The developer has announced plans for iTunes integration (on Mac only) so that users can rely on iTunes for library management and Amarra for sound quality. The most recent announcement is here [link].


----------



## mgunin

Chopin75 said:


> Which one do u prefer now, audirvana vs Amarra may I ask?



I haven't upgraded Amarra since 2.6. In general, Audirvana is much more convenient and is used 80% of the time. Still, old Amarra has some kind of smooth/analog-like (yet still very detailed) tonality which I prefer for some recordings.


----------



## aamefford

I use A4L. It sounds great. My goodness it behaves like a kluge though. The remote app is useless. One has to slowly scroll and update the library contents every time one opens it. And then it glitches and one has to start over. I use it, because I’ve spent money on it, and I really don’t want to spend more money elsewhere. Audirvana and JRiver seem to be the options for Mac?


----------



## aamefford

Ive tried the update, 4.2 or whatever.  The kluge has changed, but not improved. The remote app is still pretty pathetic. One must still manually scroll through the incremental chunks of library as it loads onto the app.  God help you if you want to play Yo-Yo Ma or ZZ Top.  And then it will crash and you get to start all over.  Or Amarra will crash.  And you get to start all over. Pity, as it sounds good.  There is just no excuse for this level of suckiness with a a modern day, commercial software. I’ll keep checking in as new updates are released. I’ll not spend further money with sonic studios though. I’m off to check what seems to be regarded as the best option for macs, or for dual platform, and finally move on.


----------



## GungaDin

aamefford said:


> Ive tried the update, 4.2 or whatever.  The kluge has changed, but not improved. The remote app is still pretty pathetic. One must still manually scroll through the incremental chunks of library as it loads onto the app.  God help you if you want to play Yo-Yo Ma or ZZ Top.  And then it will crash and you get to start all over.  Or Amarra will crash.  And you get to start all over. Pity, as it sounds good.  There is just no excuse for this level of suckiness with a a modern day, commercial software. I’ll keep checking in as new updates are released. I’ll not spend further money with sonic studios though. I’m off to check what seems to be regarded as the best option for macs, or for dual platform, and finally move on.



Amarra is the most frustrating software I've ever used and I remember the days of Windows 3 and other “primitive” software. Absolutely nothing is easy or smooth with Amarra. I recently put a new SSD in the Mac mini I use with Amarra and, following the instructions to the letter, have not been able to reinstall Amarra. Every aspect of Amarra is a disaster except for the sound, which is very good. The problem is getting to the point where you can actually get any sound out of the damned thing. For the last couple of years, I've stopped listening to the many music files I have and have just used streaming instead because Amarra is such an endless pain in the...neck. Streaming may not be ideal in various ways but at least it gives you some music to listen to.


----------



## Left Channel

Have any Amarra for Mac users here tried the new iTunes integration? I'm hoping that will reduce the frustration factor.


----------



## aamefford

Left Channel said:


> Have any Amarra for Mac users here tried the new iTunes integration? I'm hoping that will reduce the frustration factor.


Hmmmmm, I hadn’t considered that. Then again, I’m really trying to get away from iTunes completely. I used to use iTunes and bitperfect. That was a decent solution, save for iTunes.....


----------



## Chopin75

aamefford said:


> Hmmmmm, I hadn’t considered that. Then again, I’m really trying to get away from iTunes completely. I used to use iTunes and bitperfect. That was a decent solution, save for iTunes.....


Why not just use audirvana, designed for MAC that shuts down the background activities. I have be using the demo, very easy to use though setup is a bit comfusing and you may need to select DSD over DoP manually to get DSD out. It automatically finds your albums in your drive or folder that u manually assign to. It sounds much better than J media center


----------



## aamefford

Yep, this looks like where I am heading. I think I’ll test both Audirvana and Roon. I can’t really afford Roon, but I’m very curious about it.


----------



## Left Channel

aamefford said:


> Hmmmmm, I hadn’t considered that. Then again, I’m really trying to get away from iTunes completely. I used to use iTunes and bitperfect. That was a decent solution, save for iTunes.....



Amarra and Pure Music are both integrated with iTunes now. They also vie for the title of "best sound quality" in reviews, but can't seem to get library management right. Amarra in particular has been a mess, and this is their response. Audirvana and Roon are their own deep rabbit holes, and I suggest first trying the Amarra iTunes integration (which may still be in beta, not sure) before committing the time necessary to master and tweak one of the others to your liking. Please let us know if you try it.


----------



## GungaDin

Left Channel said:


> Amarra and Pure Music are both integrated with iTunes now. They also vie for the title of "best sound quality" in reviews, but can't seem to get library management right. Amarra in particular has been a mess, and this is their response. Audirvana and Roon are their own deep rabbit holes, and I suggest first trying the Amarra iTunes integration (which may still be in beta, not sure) before committing the time necessary to master and tweak one of the others to your liking. Please let us know if you try it.


I'm baffled by the problems Amarra has with library management. Foobar, which is a free download, has had excellent library management for a dozen years if not longer. Amarra, which soaks their customers every year or more for another $50 or $100 bucks or whatever, is a total train wreck with library management. Does effective library management somehow interfere with Amarra's sound? Is it really that complex? Is the Amarra team just too lazy or too cheap to work on it? I don't get it. Maybe they should look at what Foobar has done for a decade and try to learn a few things.


----------



## Chopin75

You guys should try out Audirvana  download 15 day free trial. It seems the library management is easy and simple. You can see the pics of the album and there is a button to click so the digital booklet would pop up. I think you can do some custom made genre classification. I only have 10 or less albums so far so it is obviously easy to manage. 
You can then compare if it sounds better than amarra and Pure Music.
It also can be sinked with iTunes and Roon and some other stuff like MQA I think.
You need to manually select if you want to shut off unneeded programs to get best sound. You may also have to select manually to force all DSD files to play as DSD or it may do PCM instead.
Can convert PCM to DSD which works quite nicely.


----------



## SonicStudio

Hi All,
We understand it has been a challenge using Amarra Luxe and we are sorry for any inconvenience,  It truly is a delicate balance to provide features and still maintain exceptional sound quality.  Every tweak on a computer can have an impact on the sound, it's just not as simple as 'bits is bits'.  That said, we've continued to make improvements and have a new build for the Mac you are all welcome to test out.  It's available at: https://downloads.sonicstudio.com/Amarra4Luxe/Amarra_4_Installer.4.2.402.zip.  We recommend clearing your library and re-scanning to take full advantage of the update.    

For those that use iTunes, click on the icon on the far left of the transport window to enable iTunes mode.  Once enabled, remember to select tracks from iTunes and Amarra will play them back.

We will be coming out with another update shortly that supports Amarra Play - our iOS- based app that will allow for streaming to your mobile device or downloading to your mobile device for offline use from your local library, upsampling to 96k and MQA playback included.  More information will be available later this week.  If you happen to be at SXSW in Austin, check out: http://www.mqa.co.uk/professional/mqalive to hear more about the future of streaming audio and hear a live concert, streamed from London and get an idea of what's to come with Amarra Play.


----------



## Chopin75

SonicStudio said:


> Hi All,
> We understand it has been a challenge using Amarra Luxe and we are sorry for any inconvenience,  It truly is a delicate balance to provide features and still maintain exceptional sound quality.  Every tweak on a computer can have an impact on the sound, it's just not as simple as 'bits is bits'.  That said, we've continued to make improvements and have a new build for the Mac you are all welcome to test out.  It's available at: https://downloads.sonicstudio.com/Amarra4Luxe/Amarra_4_Installer.4.2.402.zip.  We recommend clearing your library and re-scanning to take full advantage of the update.
> 
> For those that use iTunes, click on the icon on the far left of the transport window to enable iTunes mode.  Once enabled, remember to select tracks from iTunes and Amarra will play them back.
> ...


But it looks like it still cannot do native DSD or DoP, the latter is coming soon ??


----------



## SonicStudio

Chopin75 said:


> But it looks like it still cannot do native DSD or DoP, the latter is coming soon ??


Yes, we are testing that now however we also have some other pressing items that need to be address including the Windows solution.  We working as fast as we can on this, hope to have it available soon.


----------



## aamefford

SonicStudio said:


> Hi All,
> We understand it has been a challenge using Amarra Luxe and we are sorry for any inconvenience,  It truly is a delicate balance to provide features and still maintain exceptional sound quality.  Every tweak on a computer can have an impact on the sound, it's just not as simple as 'bits is bits'.  That said, we've continued to make improvements and have a new build for the Mac you are all welcome to test out.  It's available at: https://downloads.sonicstudio.com/Amarra4Luxe/Amarra_4_Installer.4.2.402.zip.  We recommend clearing your library and re-scanning to take full advantage of the update.
> 
> For those that use iTunes, click on the icon on the far left of the transport window to enable iTunes mode.  Once enabled, remember to select tracks from iTunes and Amarra will play them back.
> ...


I’ve downloaded the version noted above  I note that the remote app behavior is not improved. This is my biggest gripe.  Scrolling through albums behaves as if my library info loads in blocks, with significant chunks, with pauses between chunks. If one suffers through this to get to ZZ Top, and then switches to the album screen it starts over with the album information loading in chunks. I’ve never had the patience to test the tracks screen. When can we expect a remote iPad app that loads the whole set of library information at app start up?  Something that works as a modern app should work?  This is pretty key to being able to enjoy Amarra at least for me.


----------



## SonicStudio

aamefford said:


> I’ve downloaded the version noted above  I note that the remote app behavior is not improved. This is my biggest gripe.  Scrolling through albums behaves as if my library info loads in blocks, with significant chunks, with pauses between chunks. If one suffers through this to get to ZZ Top, and then switches to the album screen it starts over with the album information loading in chunks. I’ve never had the patience to test the tracks screen. When can we expect a remote iPad app that loads the whole set of library information at app start up?  Something that works as a modern app should work?  This is pretty key to being able to enjoy Amarra at least for me.


We are aware of this issue and are updating the remote for better performance.  If you're interested in beta testing the remote, please contact us at sales@sonicstudio.com


----------



## aamefford

SonicStudio said:


> We are aware of this issue and are updating the remote for better performance.  If you're interested in beta testing the remote, please contact us at sales@sonicstudio.com


Email on the way. I’ve complained enough.  I’m happy to try and be part of the solution, instead of (just) part of the torch and pitchfork crowd.  Thank you for this.  I hope others here contact you as well to help.


----------



## colonelkernel8

I made the mistake of buying this today without trying it first (I’m a fool, I really wanted that remote control capability). The bugs and utter lack of polish is stunning. I actually had a song from Tidal encoded at 96 KHz play back at 88.2 KHz. Imagine my surprise when the female vocalist sounded a bit, masculine. I submitted a ticket for a refund since I’m within the 30 days (fingers crossed I’ll get my money back), but I’ve already removed it and the license from my computer. It needs thousands of hours of work before it’s worth anywhere near $100.


----------



## Chopin75

Try audirvana, so far sounds great but I have not use the remote function . I shut down all WiFi and blue tube for best sound. I do classical so I don’t change track every few min haha. Do the 15 day trial of course.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Chopin75 said:


> Try audirvana, so far sounds great but I have not use the remote function . I shut down all WiFi and blue tube for best sound. I do classical so I don’t change track every few min haha. Do the 15 day trial of course.



Did so. Love it. The polish and attention to detail and aesthetics are really nice.


----------



## Chopin75

colonelkernel8 said:


> Did so. Love it. The polish and attention to detail and aesthetics are really nice.


I like the fact u can see the album pic (if u downloaded them) and it automatically finds your album when u give the correct folder for it to synchronize. U can also click on a button to open the digital booklet. Can u also assess it remotely and read the booklet from iPad?


----------



## colonelkernel8

Chopin75 said:


> I like the fact u can see the album pic (if u downloaded them) and it automatically finds your album when u give the correct folder for it to synchronize. U can also click on a button to open the digital booklet. Can u also assess it remotely and read the booklet from iPad?


Not sure. Not a crucial feature for me. Only thing that needs fixing is that Tidal MQA icons show up in the remote app but not the application itself. Bit of a bummer, but not a deal breaker.


----------



## pororom (Apr 16, 2018)

When you select upsampling on Amarra 4 luxe with files AIFF 16-44 on a Mac; with Audirvana I can select up to 192 and perform the conversion; with one DAC accepting 192 Amarra 4 luxe will also rise to 192? I see that I can not select the upsampling bitrate 192 as in Audirvana


----------



## aamefford (Apr 19, 2018)

Deleted.


----------



## colonelkernel8 (Apr 19, 2018)

[deleted]


----------



## aamefford (Apr 19, 2018)

Deleted.


----------



## Billheiser

I kept trying to set up Amarra on my laptop (I have enjoyed it for 2-3 years on our desktop).  Never could get it to work on laptop, tho I was working via email w Amarra support.  I finally gave up and tried Audivarna.  That worked immediately and I'm now a satisfied paying customer w/ Audivarna.  (still using amarra on desktop_


----------



## mwhals

I am still avoiding the purchase of Amarra due to the poor library management on a Windows machine. It sounds great, but is klunky to use. J River sounds good enough for me to use due to its much better library management.


----------



## jude

I used to use Amarra, but ended up switching to Roon a couple of years ago, which I _really_ dig. While I'll never be able to fully recapture the days of my vinyl-buying youth -- when I'd go buy albums, bring them home, and listen to the albums while obsessing over liner notes -- Roon does give me back some of the more experiential aspects of those days. I also like its filtering, discovery, and how it integrates TIDAL into my collection as if the TIDAL catalog was on my media drives.


----------



## MacedonianHero

jude said:


> I used to use Amarra, but ended up switching to Roon a couple of years ago, which I _really_ dig. While I'll never be able to fully recapture the days of my vinyl-buying youth -- when I'd go buy albums, bring them home, and listen to the albums while obsessing over liner notes -- Roon does give me back some of the more experiential aspects of those days. I also like its filtering, discovery, and how it integrates TIDAL into my collection as if the TIDAL catalog was on my media drives.



Great thoughts Jude. I'm with you on buying vinyl. I remember being a teenager and heading downtown to Sam the Record Man here in Toronto and then getting home and listening to Zeppelin IV and pouring over the huge liner notes. Kids today unfortunately won't get to share in that experience of spending hours in a record store and coming home with your found treasures.


----------



## mwhals (Jun 27, 2018)

MacedonianHero said:


> Great thoughts Jude. I'm with you on buying vinyl. I remember being a teenager and heading downtown to Sam the Record Man here in Toronto and then getting home and listening to Zeppelin IV and pouring over the huge liner notes. Kids today unfortunately won't get to share in that experience of spending hours in a record store and coming home with your found treasures.



Also, Best Buy is eliminating CDs from their stores. Pretty soon there will be no physical music to buy anywhere.


----------



## mwhals

Amarra 4 Luxe is on sale for a couple of more days, so for $49 I decided to order it. I have spent more than that eating out with my wife before, so I figured it is a reasonable price to go ahead and get it. I still have J River Media Player to give Sonic Studio more time to fix it if I have problems with it.


----------



## FangJoker

Navigating Amarra on Windows for songs feels so sluggish. It sounds great, but its so slow I can't justify buying it until it gets fixed. I have a PC less than a year old and is a near totl gaming PC that cost me 6k. It's a shame. It sounds quite a bit better than jriver and foobar too.


----------



## mwhals

It seems faster than earlier versions of Amarra 4 Lux to me. Sluggish, but bearable on my super fast 6 core PC I build 6 years ago.


----------



## dwinnert

Does Amarra support plugins?


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

anyone else have a problem where Amarra wont go to the next track after the current track is finished? The SQ of Amarra has been excellent, thats just my one gripe now


----------



## SonicStudio

Regarding Amarra Luxe not going to the next track, please check out the build below.  We're in final testing prior to release but it should resolve the issue.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k5uambmiox886r9/Amarra_4_Installer.4.2.442.zip?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k5uambmiox886r9/Amarra_4_Installer.4.2.442.zip?dl=0

Please let us know at support@sonicstudio.com of any issues.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

SonicStudio said:


> Regarding Amarra Luxe not going to the next track, please check out the build below.  We're in final testing prior to release but it should resolve the issue.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k5uambmiox886r9/Amarra_4_Installer.4.2.442.zip?dl=0
> 
> Please let us know at support@sonicstudio.com of any issues.


GREAT!

Nice of you to reply so fast, let alone at all... I really appreciate it. I know it sounds like a dumb gripe but when I am knocking back cold ones and getting my tunes on, I’m too American to want to get up and click to the next track. It kills my buzz!

Thanks again


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

SonicStudio said:


> Regarding Amarra Luxe not going to the next track, please check out the build below.  We're in final testing prior to release but it should resolve the issue.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/k5uambmiox886r9/Amarra_4_Installer.4.2.442.zip?dl=0
> 
> Please let us know at support@sonicstudio.com of any issues.


I wanted to give credit where credit is due- I got the update loaded up quick and my issue is totally gone. Thanks @SonicStudio for the hook up to get my tunes rolling. Here’s a pic of me in the moment with my feet kicked back and the Ammara fired up proper!


----------



## Taz777

I'm new to these forums so hi everyone. I'm evaluating Amarra 4 Luxe at the moment on an iMac. The sound is very, very good but it often crashes when starting up. I'm running macOS Mojave 14.0. Is this a known issue or is anyone else experiencing this? I wouldn't hesitate to buy it if it was a little more stable. I'm only using it for offline music playing at the moment.


----------



## Nik74

I bought it a few months ago and even though the sound quality is really good I rarely use it now. I ll sometimes play some flac files of music that I can't stream but part from the frequent crashes it very often won't play the selected track , I press next and it plays the previous one etc, just really not a stable application. It is a shame because it offers stellas sq...


----------



## SonicStudio

Nik74 said:


> I bought it a few months ago and even though the sound quality is really good I rarely use it now. I ll sometimes play some flac files of music that I can't stream but part from the frequent crashes it very often won't play the selected track , I press next and it plays the previous one etc, just really not a stable application. It is a shame because it offers stellas sq...


Most of that is old news, Amarra luxe runs quite well now.  You should download the current build of Amarra Luxe for Mac at: https://downloads.sonicstudio.com/Amarra4Luxe/Amarra_4_Installer.4.2.445.zip

An updated version for WIndows is due out shortly.


----------



## Taz777

Hi @SonicStudio, is there a new Mac version due soon too? I’m running macOS Mojave and Amarra sometimes crashes during startup. I also noticed that clicking the X button on the top-left of the Amarra window completely closes and exits the program which isn’t typical of a macOS application. The program’s window should disappear but the program should co tinier to run and be available in the Dock as an active application.

Amarra is the nicest sounding player that I’m currently evaluating and I’m just looking for some reassurance that bugs like the ones I mentioned are being looked at and will be resolved in a future update.

Finally, how often is Amarra updated? Is it several times a year typically, or rarely?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I'm still using Amarra 2.6 because the copy protection scheme got too complicated to 1st remember a password and then to be told when I installed the next version that my password was wrong, and then I was forced to change it. I'd write it down, and the next time I updated or upgraded that password was refused again. I'm supposed to have 3 total licenses, and have completely lost track of how to access the 3rd one. 

It's pretty sad, but at least it doesn't cost several hundred dollars anymore (I stated with version 2.01 way back when, using an iLok dongle for one license and a passcode for the others).

I'm evaluating Amarra 4 Luxe until 10/19/18 but already found that when I try to play a tidal song that it tries to play the last movie that I watched in stunned instead, and then when I tried to quit I was unable to quit iTunes or Amarra 4 Luxe.


----------



## SonicStudio

Taz777 said:


> Hi @SonicStudio, is there a new Mac version due soon too? I’m running macOS Mojave and Amarra sometimes crashes during startup. I also noticed that clicking the X button on the top-left of the Amarra window completely closes and exits the program which isn’t typical of a macOS application. The program’s window should disappear but the program should co tinier to run and be available in the Dock as an active application.
> 
> Amarra is the nicest sounding player that I’m currently evaluating and I’m just looking for some reassurance that bugs like the ones I mentioned are being looked at and will be resolved in a future update.
> 
> Finally, how often is Amarra updated? Is it several times a year typically, or rarely?


Thanks for your note, a couple of items
- There will be an update to Amarra Luxe for Mac very soon, there are some key additions including Qobuz access, nugs.net access and many fixes along the way.

- i've passed along a note regarding the red button closing the app to our engineering team for review and resolution.

- As far as updates, we'd like to plan a major update annually with maintenance updates as needed, but sometimes the best laid plans are cast in Jello.


----------



## SonicStudio

HeadphoneAddict said:


> I'm still using Amarra 2.6 because the copy protection scheme got too complicated to 1st remember a password and then to be told when I installed the next version that my password was wrong, and then I was forced to change it. I'd write it down, and the next time I updated or upgraded that password was refused again. I'm supposed to have 3 total licenses, and have completely lost track of how to access the 3rd one.
> 
> It's pretty sad, but at least it doesn't cost several hundred dollars anymore (I stated with version 2.01 way back when, using an iLok dongle for one license and a passcode for the others).
> 
> I'm evaluating Amarra 4 Luxe until 10/19/18 but already found that when I try to play a tidal song that it tries to play the last movie that I watched in stunned instead, and then when I tried to quit I was unable to quit iTunes or Amarra 4 Luxe.


Your best bet is to write us at support@sonicstudio.com.  We have a record of all of your licenses and their current state.  
- We haven't had any reports of TIDAL playing movies when asking to play songs.  It may be that things got confused along the way.  
The best thing would be to delete preferences and re-launch Amarra 
- Quit Amarra Luxe
- Go to your Applications->Amarra 4->Scripts folder and double-click on 'Clear Settings.app'
- Re-launch Amarra Luxe

You'll need to sign back into TIDAL and also re-enable ITunes mode but you should be fine.


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## Taz777 (Oct 8, 2018)

SonicStudio said:


> Thanks for your note, a couple of items
> - There will be an update to Amarra Luxe for Mac very soon, there are some key additions including Qobuz access, nugs.net access and many fixes along the way.
> 
> - i've passed along a note regarding the red button closing the app to our engineering team for review and resolution.
> ...




Thanks for the update.

[EDIT]:
I have a question about iTunes mode: if I enable iTunes mode in Amarra from Windows --> Enable iTunes Mode, then do I just use iTunes as normal and ALL of the music that I play in iTunes will be processed by Amarra before it gets sent to my DAC?

In other words, I don't need to use the Amarra UI in iTunes mode. Is this correct?


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## HeadphoneAddict

SonicStudio said:


> Your best bet is to write us at support@sonicstudio.com.  We have a record of all of your licenses and their current state.
> - We haven't had any reports of TIDAL playing movies when asking to play songs.  It may be that things got confused along the way.
> The best thing would be to delete preferences and re-launch Amarra
> - Quit Amarra Luxe
> ...



Thanks, I'll try some of your recs. As soon as I have time I'll send off that email too.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Taz777 said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> [EDIT]:
> I have a question about iTunes mode: if I enable iTunes mode in Amarra from Windows --> Enable iTunes Mode, then do I just use iTunes as normal and ALL of the music that I play in iTunes will be processed by Amarra before it gets sent to my DAC?
> ...



Yeah, you can just use iTunes while Amarra in Tunes mode is in the background handling the sound processing.


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## Chopin75

Does anyone know if amarra can do multi-channel 5.1 & 7.1. ?


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## SonicStudio

Taz777 said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> [EDIT]:
> I have a question about iTunes mode: if I enable iTunes mode in Amarra from Windows --> Enable iTunes Mode, then do I just use iTunes as normal and ALL of the music that I play in iTunes will be processed by Amarra before it gets sent to my DAC?
> ...



When you use Amarra in iTunes mode, you would use the iTunes interface to select your tracks.  The Amarra window is minimized and you'll only see the transport panel which we suggest you use but you can use the transport controls in iTunes as well.

As for playing back all of your files, the only issues you may have is with iTunes protected files.    When playing back protected files, playback will be through whatever device is set in Audio Midi Setup.  When a non-protected file is played, playback will switch to the device set in Amarra Device Settings window.


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## SonicStudio

Chopin75 said:


> Does anyone know if amarra can do multi-channel 5.1 & 7.1. ?


Not at this time, we are looking into that for the future.


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## matti621

If you're listening to compressed audio you're in the wrong forum...


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## JTori

Resurrecting this old thread.  I recently transitioned from Window to Mac.  A longtime JRiver user, I began encountering issues with the software in the form of interrupted play.  Long story short, I settled on Amarra Luxe 4.3.500 for the sound quality.  While the audio quality is exceptional, there are a few idiosyncracies I'd like to see resolutions to:

Having to scan for music each time the app is launched.  And, because I have my hi-rez files in a separate directory, having to add a library after the initial scan.  Because I have roughly 1,000 CDs of music in AIFF format on my Synology NAS drive, this can take some time.  It's not just open the app and play music.
If it's not possible to resolve the issue above, I'd at least like to have the option of pointing the app to my two music directories and having it scan automatically at launch.
The interface, while nice looking, is clunky; it is slow to scroll through artists or albums.  It would be nice if this operated more smoothly.
That's it for now.

Thanks for listening.


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## SonicStudio

JTori said:


> Resurrecting this old thread.  I recently transitioned from Window to Mac.  A longtime JRiver user, I began encountering issues with the software in the form of interrupted play.  Long story short, I settled on Amarra Luxe 4.3.500 for the sound quality.  While the audio quality is exceptional, there are a few idiosyncracies I'd like to see resolutions to:
> 
> Having to scan for music each time the app is launched.  And, because I have my hi-rez files in a separate directory, having to add a library after the initial scan.  Because I have roughly 1,000 CDs of music in AIFF format on my Synology NAS drive, this can take some time.  It's not just open the app and play music.
> If it's not possible to resolve the issue above, I'd at least like to have the option of pointing the app to my two music directories and having it scan automatically at launch.
> ...


Hello, a few notes to pass along
- You're not re-scanning your library each time you open, just re-reading stored information.  Launching Amarra after your library is scanned should take much less time than an initial scan of your music.
- If you want to scan both folders at once, create a new folder and put both music folders in the new folder.  Many folks do that so they can scan the highest level folder and get all of their music.
- We are continuing to work on the overall performance of Amarra on Windows, more to come.


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## JTori

Thank you for your response.  I think I've settled on a regimen for preserving the library info on startup.  Since my music is stored on a NAS, I take the extra step to make sure the device is actively connected before allowing Amarra to rescan the library.  It's not foolproof, though.  I've still had numerous instances where I need to rescan the library.

One more observation I'd like to make is that it would be great if the track order on some albums would be preserved.  Today, for instance, I'm listening to The Who, "Live at Leeds", and the original concert sequence is fouled up.  A shame, because lead ins to several songs are followed by different songs than the band has introduced.


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## MacedonianHero

Just curious how the newest versions of Amarra handles libraries over over 1200 albums and 12,000+ songs?


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## mwhals

MacedonianHero said:


> Just curious how the newest versions of Amarra handles libraries over over 1200 albums and 12,000+ songs?


 With my 750 albums and just shy of 10,000 songs, it takes much longer loading the albums than J River's Media Center. Once loaded, scrolling through the albums is not smooth, but it is much faster than previous versions of Amarra. It sounds very good though.


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## MacedonianHero

mwhals said:


> With my 750 albums and just shy of 10,000 songs, it takes much longer loading the albums than J River's Media Center. Once loaded, scrolling through the albums is not smooth, but it is much faster than previous versions of Amarra. It sounds very good though.



Thanks...that's too bad. It was an issue that I had with previous versions and hoped it was fixed. Audirvana and Roon are quite smooth and quick.


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## SonicStudio

JTori said:


> Thank you for your response.  I think I've settled on a regimen for preserving the library info on startup.  Since my music is stored on a NAS, I take the extra step to make sure the device is actively connected before allowing Amarra to rescan the library.  It's not foolproof, though.  I've still had numerous instances where I need to rescan the library.
> 
> One more observation I'd like to make is that it would be great if the track order on some albums would be preserved.  Today, for instance, I'm listening to The Who, "Live at Leeds", and the original concert sequence is fouled up.  A shame, because lead ins to several songs are followed by different songs than the band has introduced.



Which NAS are you using?  We've had a similar report from someone using a Synology NAS but not on a drobo NAS.


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## SonicStudio

MacedonianHero said:


> Thanks...that's too bad. It was an issue that I had with previous versions and hoped it was fixed. Audirvana and Roon are quite smooth and quick.


Try using Launch in Browser mode, the scrolling is way faster than in the default Amarra mode.  Go to your Windows pull down menu and select Launch in Browser.  We recommend using Chrome or Firefox.


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## SonicStudio

mwhals said:


> With my 750 albums and just shy of 10,000 songs, it takes much longer loading the albums than J River's Media Center. Once loaded, scrolling through the albums is not smooth, but it is much faster than previous versions of Amarra. It sounds very good though.


Try using Launch in Browser mode, the scrolling is way faster than in the default Amarra mode. Go to your Windows pull down menu and select Launch in Browser. We recommend using Chrome or Firefox.


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## MacedonianHero

SonicStudio said:


> Try using Launch in Browser mode, the scrolling is way faster than in the default Amarra mode.  Go to your Windows pull down menu and select Launch in Browser.  We recommend using Chrome or Firefox.



I'm using a Mac, will this work for OSX?


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## mwhals

SonicStudio said:


> Try using Launch in Browser mode, the scrolling is way faster than in the default Amarra mode. Go to your Windows pull down menu and select Launch in Browser. We recommend using Chrome or Firefox.



Thanks! That make it much faster and smoother scrolling. The issue is that Chrome is my default browser, but it keeps using Microsoft Edge as the browser it launches in.


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## SonicStudio

MacedonianHero said:


> I'm using a Mac, will this work for OSX?


Launch in Browser is available on Mac and should provide a performance improvement on Mac as well, although not as dramatic.


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## captblaze

just wanna chime in and thank the devs for making your Windows product usable... I jumped in at the beginning (even took the Luxe upgrade) and have been hanging on for stable build. I will admit I took a year off hoping that all the functionality I was expecting was worked on. I can say with confidence this is usable

once again thanks to Sonic Studio. I have even had success with the remote app, although the album art is displayed in album view, it is not in song view


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## SonicStudio

still more to come, glad you're able to use on Windows now.  Let us know of issues that come up and we'll be working on them.


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## mwhals

SonicStudio said:


> still more to come, glad you're able to use on Windows now.  Let us know of issues that come up and we'll be working on them.



Can you make Amarra Luxe not take so long loading albums when first launching the app? Not sure how others are doing it, but maybe they are using an indexing system. If others do it, I know you can. You beat them on sound, so I am sure you can at least match them on loading time.


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## JTori

SonicStudio said:


> Which NAS are you using?  We've had a similar report from someone using a Synology NAS but not on a drobo NAS.



I'm using a Synology NAS.  A little additional info, I'm running the Mac version of Amarra on an iMac Pro.

Again, I want to applaud the engagement of Sonic Studios with this forum.  Thank you!


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## SonicStudio

mwhals said:


> Can you make Amarra Luxe not take so long loading albums when first launching the app? Not sure how others are doing it, but maybe they are using an indexing system. If others do it, I know you can. You beat them on sound, so I am sure you can at least match them on loading time.


work in progress


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## SonicStudio

JTori said:


> I'm using a Synology NAS.  A little additional info, I'm running the Mac version of Amarra on an iMac Pro.
> 
> Again, I want to applaud the engagement of Sonic Studios with this forum.  Thank you!



Your are very welcome.  So, you're the second person with a Synology NAS that is having this issue.  I believe it is a file system issue with the Synology NAS that is not an issue when using a drobo for instance.  We will need to investigate further.

What format are you using for your Synology NAS?  Synology NAS recognizes the following formats: Btrfs, ext3, ext4, FAT, FAT32, exFAT, HFS, HFS Plus, and NTFS.

If anyone else has experience with a Synology NAS, please chime in.


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## JTori

SonicStudio said:


> Your are very welcome.  So, you're the second person with a Synology NAS that is having this issue.  I believe it is a file system issue with the Synology NAS that is not an issue when using a drobo for instance.  We will need to investigate further.
> 
> What format are you using for your Synology NAS?  Synology NAS recognizes the following formats: Btrfs, ext3, ext4, FAT, FAT32, exFAT, HFS, HFS Plus, and NTFS.
> 
> If anyone else has experience with a Synology NAS, please chime in.



Mine is model DS215J, which I believe uses EXT4 file system.


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## JTori

Over the past couple of days I've experienced unexpected shutdowns of Amarra.  A notification pops up with one option being reopen.  When I reopen, the app scans the library and restarts exactly where it left off.  For reference, I'm running the latest version of Amarra Luxe on an iMac Pro.


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## Bitsir

Anyone else experiencing crackling sounds during playback sometimes? Seriously difficult to diagnose the cause but I figured I would ask here to see if the problem could be with the Amarra client or if it is something else in the chain.


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## omasciarotte

Bitsir said:


> Anyone else experiencing crackling sounds during playback sometimes? Seriously difficult to diagnose the cause but I figured I would ask here to see if the problem could be with the Amarra client or if it is something else in the chain.



Hey Bitsir,

When I’ve had this behavior w/Amarra or other audiophile player apps, it’s usually because either the host is “busy” doing too many other tasks, or the sample rate playing back exceeds the abilities of the system as a whole; host computer + DAC. For instance, my ancient host+ USB DAC (Mytek Brooklyn) has trouble w/DXD (8x) native file playback, but it can deal with an 8x MQA file no problem.


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## wilsonlaidlaw

I am using Amarra SQ+ for playback from my Mac Mini (media server) and MacBook Pro (does all the rest). I have found it particularly effective when playing from Qobuz to my Hugo 2 when I am using headphones (Beyerdynamic T5P-Mk.2. However the app is a bit buggy with oddities like double speed playback or no playback sound at all, where you have to start a stream from Qobuz direct to my main system DAC, a Benchmark Media DAC-3L, and only when it is playing properly at the correct speed, fire up Amarra. This is mostly on 96/24 files. This happens on both my main system Benchmark DAC and on the Hugo 2, so Amarra driven problem not DAC specific. I also often have to go into settings to get it to fire up from Qobuz. Now I don't know if this is a Qobuz or Amarra problem or a sync problem between the two.


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## sleepless64

Hello, a newbie here. I have the same album twice, one is ALAC and the other one is FLAC; Amarra deluxe shows it as one. First 12 songs of the album are the ALAC ones, last 12 are the FLAC ones. How can I make that they show as separate albums, please?


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## omasciarotte

Hey there sleepless64,

First thing I would try is altering the metadata of one of the two albums. I use iTunes but there are many other apps that let you edit metadata. Try adding “[FLAC]” to the end of the album name to distinguish it from the ALAC version. With different album names, the two versions will be treated as two different albums.

I assume you have two versions of the same content for comparison purposes? Unless something is terribly wrong with your playback chain’s rendering engine or you have a errors in your file system, they will sound the same as the rendered bitstream will be identical.


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## wilsonlaidlaw

Amarra SQ+ does not work with Big Sur. Sonic Studio are aware of this and are apparently working on an update but no estimated release date. Given that the beta version of Big Sur has been available for close to 6 months, this is less than epic service for quite an expensive bit of software.


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## sleepless64

omasciarotte said:


> Hey there sleepless64,
> 
> First thing I would try is altering the metadata of one of the two albums. I use iTunes but there are many other apps that let you edit metadata. Try adding “[FLAC]” to the end of the album name to distinguish it from the ALAC version. With different album names, the two versions will be treated as two different albums.
> 
> I assume you have two versions of the same content for comparison purposes? Unless something is terribly wrong with your playback chain’s rendering engine or you have a errors in your file system, they will sound the same as the rendered bitstream will be identical.


Thank you very much. It worked by altering the metadata. Fixed.


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## attmci (Dec 15, 2020)

There are so many bugs need to be fixed for the Win10 version. However, the software haven't been updated since the end of last year.
The news should be read as 
"Amarra Luxe Scores BUGs on List of Windows Music Players for Hi-Res Audio"


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## arjuna93

wilsonlaidlaw said:


> Amarra SQ+ does not work with Big Sur. Sonic Studio are aware of this and are apparently working on an update but no estimated release date. Given that the beta version of Big Sur has been available for close to 6 months, this is less than epic service for quite an expensive bit of software.



Just found out that Fidelia also doesn’t work properly on Big Sur.


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## andrewd01

arjuna93 said:


> Just found out that Fidelia also doesn’t work properly on Big Sur.



Good reason to avoid generic computing OS‘s like the plague for audio.


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## arjuna93

andrewd01 said:


> Good reason to avoid generic computing OS‘s like the plague for audio.



Well, not that I disagree, but I got limited space and also rather spend extra cash on new pair of Stax )


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## Bitsir

NEW BUG FOR AMARRA LUXE IN WINDOWS 10

I cannot log in to Tidal in Amarra. The reason? 
It seems that Tidal requires you to complete a "captcha" to log in regularly, but this captcha isn't prompted when trying to log in to Tidal in Amarra and instead
it simply says "login failed". I know for a fact that I am entering the right username and password.

This needs an immediate fix!!!


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## wilsonlaidlaw (Apr 16, 2021)

I can only presume everyone at Sonic Studio who sell and presumably write the code for Amarra software products, have p***ed off for the duration of covid and are not bothering to update any of their products to work on the latest operating systems or hardware, in my case 2 x M1 Macs an Air and a Mini running Big Sur. Just not good enough for what was an expensive piece of software. Would have been better off using shareware, then at least when it stops working, it has not cost you anything.


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## Bitsir

wilsonlaidlaw said:


> I can only presume everyone at Sonic Studio who sell and presumably write the code for Amarra software products, have p***ed off for the during of covid and are not bothering to update any of their products to work on the latest operating systems or hardware, in my case 2 x M1 Macs an Air and a Mini running Big Sur. Just not good enough for what was an expensive piece of software. Would have been better off using shareware, then at least when it stops working, it has not cost you anything.


So frustrating. I'm just in love with the Amarra sound, it's got that special analog, vinyl smoothness that's missing in other players I've tried. 


It's such a shame that their client and software support sucks, they're sitting on a winning ticket yet they refuse to cash it in. 

The client runs like it hasn't been touched for 15 years. Just fix it and then you can all swim in money!


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## Broquen

The same (or at least another problem with the Tidal login) is happening to some other devices too https://www.head-fi.org/threads/astell-kern-sr25-the-next-a-norma-player.926918/page-110


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## wilsonlaidlaw

The problem is that the Russian, Korean and Chinese scumbag hackers have spoilt the game for everyone. All companies are now running so scared of security breaches and put in so many levels of security checking, that it makes life impossible for people to use their services and products. I am currently stuck in the UK due to Covid but I needed to access my French bank account online to see if a very substantial travel refund had been paid into it. My French bank has added yet another layer of security to online access (it was already difficult enough with constantly changing numerical pass codes), where you have to receive a code by SMS on your registered phone. You have to confirm the phone number before this happens but in order to do that, you need another security number. The bank in spite of knowing I am in the UK, sent the security code by regular post to my French address. The code expires after a week, which is less time than it takes a forwarded letter to get from France to the UK, if I were able to arrange that. I spent nearly two hours on the phone this morning to different people at BNP Paribas and got nowhere trying to get round this blockage. For "security reasons" the bank was even unable to confirm if the payment had been received or not. Moronic!


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## Bitsir

Reply from Sonic Studio regarding Tidal/Qobuz login issues:
"For Windows, we need to update the version of Amarra Luxe to support the new TIDAL login methods and hope to have that available shortly."

So great to see that they are on it. Hopefully, it will be fixed this week.


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## wilsonlaidlaw

Would be nice if after 6 months, they did something as well about Big Sur Amarra SQ+ not working properly for Intel Mac users, let alone 5 months of M1 Macs not working at all.


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## Bitsir

wilsonlaidlaw said:


> Would be nice if after 6 months, they did something as well about Big Sur Amarra SQ+ not working properly for Intel Mac users, let alone 5 months of M1 Macs not working at all.


It's like they are out of capital or something. Someone should definitely invest in Amarra. The SOUND QUALITY is THERE, it is notably more organic and tubular than all the other audiophile music players. They just need to fix their godawful.. everything else. Even their website is all ****ed up: https://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarra4luxe.php


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## arjuna93

wilsonlaidlaw said:


> The problem is that the Russian, Korean and Chinese scumbag hackers have spoilt the game for everyone. All companies are now running so scared of security breaches and put in so many levels of security checking, that it makes life impossible for people to use their services and products. I am currently stuck in the UK due to Covid but I needed to access my French bank account online to see if a very substantial travel refund had been paid into it. My French bank has added yet another layer of security to online access (it was already difficult enough with constantly changing numerical pass codes), where you have to receive a code by SMS on your registered phone. You have to confirm the phone number before this happens but in order to do that, you need another security number. The bank in spite of knowing I am in the UK, sent the security code by regular post to my French address. The code expires after a week, which is less time than it takes a forwarded letter to get from France to the UK, if I were able to arrange that. I spent nearly two hours on the phone this morning to different people at BNP Paribas and got nowhere trying to get round this blockage. For "security reasons" the bank was even unable to confirm if the payment had been received or not. Moronic!



It’s just this particular bank sucks.

Can’t see how this hackers issue is related to a lack of Amarra support. Offering solid customer support is exactly the way to keep selling your product. People pay for software to have timely updates and access to customer support. They do this even when a hacked version of the software is available.


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## wilsonlaidlaw

arjuna93 said:


> It’s just this particular bank sucks.
> 
> Can’t see how this hackers issue is related to a lack of Amarra support. Offering solid customer support is exactly the way to keep selling your product. People pay for software to have timely updates and access to customer support. They do this even when a hacked version of the software is available.


Having talked to a couple of software developers recently (medical administration and database applications), they said they were having to concentrate 100% on making their product hacker-proof and secure, searching line by line for backdoors and vulnerabilities. As a result sorting out bugs, adding features, updating and being pro-active on making sure their product was compatible with operating system/processor updates, were having not just to take a back seat but were not being looked at at all for the time being. The medical admin/database applications that my wife and daughter use in their clinic, will not run at all on M1 Macs, so my daughter had to end up buying a new but obsolescent Intel Mac laptop recently, when her old MacBook Pro became unstable, with the usual graphics processor problems. 

I don't know if this is the problem at Amarra (I suspect maybe not) and I would agree 100% that their lack of upgrades and updates is very poor customer service and in the long run, will impact upon the company's viability. 

Wilson


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## Revolution1

Used Audirvana for five years, until the release of Studio.
From that moment on, I started looking for a player, with payment without a subscription for my Mac mini 2018.
Tested Roon, JRMC, HQP, Vox, Swissian.
Amarra Luxe easily outplayed everyone, including Audirvana 3.5, in terms of musicality and sound comfort.
I bought a license because all the flaws of using the library can be forgiven for the sound quality.


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## wilsonlaidlaw

Revolution1 said:


> Amarra Luxe easily outplayed everyone, including Audirvana 3.5, in terms of musicality and sound comfort.
> I bought a license because all the flaws of using the library can be forgiven for the sound quality.


Not however forgivable, when Amarra SQ+ does not work at all, as is the case for M1 Macs. I am getting nothing for the fee I paid.


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## Revolution1 (May 21, 2021)

wilsonlaidlaw said:


> Amarra SQ+ does not work at all, as is the case for M1 Macs.


It is stated on the support page, but Amarra SQ + will not run on Intel Macs either.
https://www.amarrasound.com/news/#mac-bigsur-update


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## wilsonlaidlaw

Revolution1 said:


> It is stated on the support page, but Amarra SQ + will not run on Intel Macs either.
> https://www.amarrasound.com/news/#mac-bigsur-update



Amarra SQ+ does sort of run on Intel Macs on OS 11.x.x but not well and the visual interface is wholly scrambled.


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## Revolution1 (May 21, 2021)

SQ+ did not start on Big Sur 11.3.1, after installation at startup it sends back to the installer.
I wanted to use it as an add-on to Apple Music.
However, it doesn't matter after installing Amarra Luxe.


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## arjuna93

Revolution1 said:


> Used Audirvana for five years, until the release of Studio.
> From that moment on, I started looking for a player, with payment without a subscription for my Mac mini 2018.
> Tested Roon, JRMC, HQP, Vox, Swissian.
> Amarra Luxe easily outplayed everyone, including Audirvana 3.5, in terms of musicality and sound comfort.
> I bought a license because all the flaws of using the library can be forgiven for the sound quality.



Have you compared it to Fidelia?


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## Revolution1

arjuna93 said:


> Have you compared it to Fidelia?


Fidelia listened four years ago, so I can't compare.


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## attmci

This is still my go to player.


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## Bitsir

attmci said:


> This is still my go to player.


Same. Sounds soooo goooood. It's like there's a NOS effect ontop of the music YET no detail is lost or fuzziness introduced.
If only they could make it more user friendly as less buggy. It's kinda stone age in that regard. I understand they made it barebones in order to preserve the sound quality?
In order to not stress the CPU of the computer which gives off noise if engaged too high...


----------

