# FiiO E12DIY Limited Edition Version---DIY your own sound !



## JamesFiiO

Since the success of our flagship portable amplifier Mont Blanc (E12),  we will release a limited edition, the detail information will be release soon, but we need your help to choose the color so we can separate the limited edition with the mass production version.
  
The DIY version will comes with 13 pcs op amp/ buf , and you can try 12 different combo. the max quantity will be not more than 2,000pcs for the global market, but we also may cancel the project if the pre order can't reach 500pcs .  
  
  
Updated on 8/8/2103:
  
For people who want to pre-order the E12 DIY, please pre order as below:
  
1, Send* US$19* to pay@fiio.com.cn via paypal  with your detial name and address and mark with deposit for E12DIY. 
  
2, We will refund the money If we cancel the project because the total pre order can't reach 500pcs. or you want to abort the pre order. 
  
3, When we stop the pre order in Sep, please balance the payment ( send the rest money US$180 to pay@fiio.com.cn ) and wait the shipment after 3 month .
  
4, The US$20 will not refund after we complete the pre order[size=14.44px].[/size]
  
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
*Important notice: to change the op or buf, you don't need to have any solder skill, there are socket on the PCB.*
  
  
BTW, thanks for everyone who help us decide the colour of the E12DIY, we already decided silver will be the colour of E12DIY.
  
  
*Updates regarding the E12 DIY program!*
  
To all the supporters of FiiO E12 DIY program,
  
Up till now, we have already got enough pre-orders to carry on this program.
For better management, we decide to set it as 1000pcs for the production of this limited edition.
  
For now, the pre-order quantity is a little less than 1000pcs, which means we still have a few open for pre-order.
Therefore, we extend the pre-order time limit to *Sep 10th, any order from end-users or agents after this time would be rejected.*
  
What’s more, due to the pre-order quantity run above 500pcs, the estimated purchase cost goes down a little bit,
so here we are more than happy to inform you that you can get this lovely E12 DIY at 180USD in total.
For those who are still have the plan to get one, please hurry up and try to pay 19USD as deposit
to confirm pre-order or you can just make full payment 180USD to our PayPal account: pay@fiio.com.cn.
  
Remarks:
1.    For those who had already paid 19USD as the deposit, please send us the 161USD balance payment before the date of Oct 10th.
2.    In case of any left over after the pre-order, we would sell it out to other end-users, while the selling price would go above 200USD.


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## JamesFiiO

*[size=12.0pt]Introduction and reservation guide to the limited edition of E12[/size]*

*[size=10.5pt]Model: E12 DIY[/size]*
   
*[size=10.5pt]Background:[/size]* [size=10.5pt]The release of FiiO E12 (flagship of portable amplifier) was welcomed by the market. However, for some customers who are eagerly to try on something new, the original operational amplifier--OP AMP (OPA1611+LME49600) still can’t make them satisfied. At present, FiiO Company is not in the right place to offer customized service, and different combination of the OP AMP can hardly help the customers to find the most favorite one through the objective sound feelings. Yet, in order to show our appreciation to those old customers and bring more fun in enjoying music, we specially invest effort in developing the DIY version based on E12. We are expecting to offer more options to our customers with this higher playability platform.[/size]
   
*[size=10.5pt]Quantity: [/size]*[size=10.5pt]2000pcs at its most worldwide.[/size]
[size=10.5pt](The program would be terminated if the reservations run less than 500.)[/size]
   
*[size=10.5pt]Target customers:[/size]*
[size=10.5pt]The following requirements are not non-negotiable, but it is STRONGLY suggested for those who are ready to reserve to read each item carefully in order to avoid any unpleasant purchase experience. [/size]

[size=10.5pt]*1. Have certain operational ability;*[/size]
[size=10.5pt]Since the customers are required to replace the OP AMP with the help of our manual, we don’t suggest average user to purchase in order to avoid burnout caused by faulty operation.[/size]

[size=10.5pt]*2. Old users of FiiO who know well of its products and service; *[/size]
[size=10.5pt]Owing to the high cost of the high quality audio OP (the supplier has no stocks available), we can only move to production process after got the FULL PAYMENT of reservation. The production cycle would be pretty long, and for now we are unable to promise a definite delivery date. That’s why we don’t suggest users to buy this item when they had never bought any FiiO products before, since we are afraid they would cancel the reservation due to impatience or lack of trust.[/size]

*[size=10.5pt]3. Willing to accept the terms without after-sales service;[/size]*
[size=10.5pt]For the DIY version, since it is practical to open the case to replace the OP by the end-user, we can hardly tell whether the issue is out of quality or man-made problem. In order to avoid unpredictable loss, we would seal the fixed screws before sending out, once found opened, we would not provide related after-sales service.[/size]
   
*[size=10.5pt]Tentative selling price:[/size]*
   
[size=10.5pt]Other districts (other than Mainland China): *199USD*--included worldwide free shipment (by UPS, FedEx, DHL or other express)[/size]
[size=10.5pt]The unit cost depends on the purchase quantity, so here we just tentatively set at its highest possible price, but would update with the real selling price right before payment stage.[/size]
  
*[size=10.5pt]Features of the E12 DIY:[/size]*
[size=10.5pt]1. On one hand, reserves the fine and meticulous workmanship of its commercial edition; on the other hand, offers more different timbre and fun with different OP combination.[/size]
[size=10.5pt]2. Canceled the Bass and Crossfeed function, which offers larger space regarding the inner wiring layout, thus get its performance greatly improved.[/size]
[size=10.5pt]3. Reserves the excellent high voltage power supply circuit of E12, ensure to make the most of its high quality audio OP.[/size]
[size=10.5pt]4. Reserves all kinds of protection circuits and USB smart fast charging of E12. As to normal DIY amplifier, audiophiles would not pay much attention to this kind of design, and lack conditions to use the MCU to fulfill this function.[/size]
[size=10.5pt]5. All the components are purchased from the first-class agent in China of companies like TI, ADI, which definitely prevent getting fake products in the purchase of DIY material.[/size]
   
*[size=10.5pt]Remark:[/size]*[size=10.5pt] Last but not least, rather than making profits out of the production of E12 DIY, we just want to show our appreciation to our old customers. Due to the limited quantity, we are more concerned about promoting our brand image. As a matter of fact, only the cost of the random provided high quality OP equals to the differential of the retail prices of the two versions. That is to say, we put much effort in developing this item, yet couldn’t make profits on it.[/size]


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## JamesFiiO

Introduction of E12 DIY limited Version
   
   
The op and buf for E12DIY includes
   
OP AMP:
   
1, OPA1611; Single channel, SOP8, 2 pcs
   
2, OPA604; Single channel, SOP8, 2 pcs
   
3, OPA&97; Single channel, SOP8, 2 pcs
   
4, OPA8620; Two Channels, SOP8, 2 pcs,
   
BUF:
   
1, BUF634 ; Single channel, DDPAK, 2 pcs
   
2, LME49600; Single channel, TS5B, 2 pcs
   
3, LMH6321; Single channel, SOP8, 2 pcs
   
So you will have 12 different combo for the OP and BUF, and the total quantity of the OP and Buf are 13pcs.
   
The retail price of these op/buf worth about $80 if you buy it in digi key.


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## rdsreference

The silver looks amazing and much more luxurious and expensive than the price suggests. Let's hope the price will be the same or similar unless there is a change of spec.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





rdsreference said:


> The silver looks amazing and much more luxurious and expensive than the price suggests. Let's hope the price will be the same or similar unless there is a change of spec.


 
   
  the E12 DIY will comes with 13 pcs very expensive op amp, the retail price will be $199. can't be cheaper and we may sell it by ourself because there are not  margin room for our agents.


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## rdsreference

Well put me down for one I I have a black version also. How do you mean diy does it come in kit form?


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





rdsreference said:


> Well put me down for one I I have a black version also. How do you mean diy does it come in kit form?


 
   
  means you can change the op amp / buf by yourself so you can choose the most suitable sound for yourself.


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## naturalliu

Allow only single choice here，so winner is type D


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## rdsreference

That's fantastic when will you have the specs. Please let me know


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## Homage

Damn, I like the colour scheme of them all....LOL!


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## JamesFiiO

we are busy in the delivery of X3 and we also need to arrange the same promo in our own forum in China too, need some time to translate to English


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## psantos1091

I have the E07K..but when I use them as a DAC I notice a hissing in my headphones that are not there without the amp. How can I fix this?


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## hoekeat

this reminded me of the common greeting in head-fi that ends with "... sorry about your wallet...."
   
  dang........ dilemma..............


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## Brooko

Hi James - if it's a limited edition - then "D" definitely.
   
  Rather than calling it silver though (silver =  2nd place) - retain same colour and call it "platinum edition" - befitting flagship status.
   
  Let me know when you're making decisions re the limited run.  May be interested.


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## rdsreference

I think the Fiio E 12 ss signature sound...maybe do what Marantz used to do in the 90s with their CD players putting ken ishiwatas name on the device. Put fiios chief engineers name on it. No charge for the info JamesB-)


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## Homage

After viewing them all again, I'm gonna go against the flow and say I prefer the colour scheme of A (black case with red text logo and volume control), but at the same time to just say they all look fine to me visually...


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## Parall3l

D here.


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## ClieOS

Voted D but I really want D with the red knob.


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## jazzman7

I too like the suggestion of D with a red knob which would look modern, I think.  D with the silver knob as shown looks classic to me (1970s/1980's receiver or integrated amp), which is also cool in its own way.  Calling it platinum is also a really good suggestion.


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## CosmicHolyGhost

How do I pre-order? where do i paypal to? I voted for D


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## evilhippie

Really like the way D looks as well, as the silver is the by far the classiest looking design. Can't wait to see what comes of this... and oh yeah, take my money already


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## AmberOzL

I liked the D, voted for it.
   
  James I have a question, how easy it will be the change those opamps and buffers. I mean I have "zero" experience with soldering and all. Do you think everybody can still use the DIY kit and change the components easily?


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## doki81

would like to get D with red knob too...


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## ClieOS

Quote: 





amberozl said:


> I liked the D, voted for it.
> 
> James I have a question, how easy it will be the change those opamps and buffers. I mean I have "zero" experience with soldering and all. Do you think everybody can still use the DIY kit and change the components easily?


 
   
  They will probably be in the DIP8 socket so all you need to do is unplug / replug them. You can get a IC puller to make it easier. The only thing you need to be careful is the orientation of the opamp. Plug it in on the wrong direction will fry the chip.


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## Dogmatrix

Another vote for D + red


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## Massacare

The silver E12, simply stunning.


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## AmberOzL

Quote: 





clieos said:


> They will probably be in the DIP8 socket so all you need to do is unplug / replug them. You can get a IC puller to make it easier. The only thing you need to be careful is the orientation of the opamp. Plug it in on the wrong direction will fry the chip.


 

 It seems like I can do it with the help of a few nice headfiers. I am in, I might get one to pair with X5. Wonderful news. I hope Europe will get some too, like Audiogarden France.


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## nihontoman

The silver with gold accents might look good too...


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## TekeRugburn

Interesting.


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## gikigill

Put me down for one. 

And make it silver and if I may request just a bit more power.


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## MrScratch

Obviously the silver rendering is the sleekest and coolest looking E12. =]


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## AmberOzL

Dude, I love how FiiO comes up with nice ideas like that. Easily changeable opamps is good. Even people like me can do it correct apparently. Mind you, I don't know anything about soldering.


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## gikigill

Quote: 





amberozl said:


> Dude, I love how FiiO comes up with nice ideas like that. Easily changeable opamps is good. Even people like me can do it correct apparently. Mind you, I don't know anything about soldering.


 
   

 I only know which end of a solder to hold but changing opamps is easy as pie. Dont stress, just make sure you follow the instructions
   
  and I have been having a blast changing opamps on my PB2, my first rollable amp.


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## JamesFiiO

updated some picture in the first page


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## bowei006

Voted A, but D looks great as well.
   
  Like Broko said, calling it Platinum Edition would sound very good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Good luck to all that buy it! (I just came to vote and look at pretty pictures)


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## RAFA

D with red knob please


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## martybm5

I concur with the others - option D with the red knob would be HOT !


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## kimvictor

Even though I have a higher end portable amp, I'll be tempted to get a E12 if it is this fashionable... Anyone else with me?


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## iRo-Fi

kimvictor said:


> Even though I have a higher end portable amp, I'll be tempted to get a E12 if it is this fashionable... Anyone else with me?




Yeh, it's quite tempting. Another vote for D with red volume knob.


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## bowei006

That would look nice


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## TekeRugburn

amberozl said:


> Dude, I love how FiiO comes up with nice ideas like that. Easily changeable opamps is good. Even people like me can do it correct apparently. Mind you, I don't know anything about soldering.




There's been previous amps where you can change opamp.


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## Reima

I voted for C but D also looks great, I would be happy with either.


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## gimbertt

Subbed


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## OmsJtmz32

Subbed, about to get E12 but these made me hold on to my purchase. Very likely i would get one of these


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





omsjtmz32 said:


> Subbed, about to get E12 but these made me hold on to my purchase. Very likely i would get one of these


 
   
  sure if you can wait, lol.


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## OmsJtmz32

jamesfiio said:


> sure if you can wait, lol.


 About how long? More than 1 month I cannot take it.


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## JamesFiiO

Aug, pre order.
   
  Sep, decide how many will we produce. and them order the expensive op / buf from our supplier
   
  Sep, Oct, Nov: waiting for the op/buf. this kind of op/buf take long time to delivered because very few people will buy it so not stocked in the market.
   
  Dec: start manufacturing. 
   
  So it will take at least 6 months.


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## OmsJtmz32

.....


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## AmberOzL

Quote: 





tekerugburn said:


> There's been previous amps where you can change opamp.


 

 Easily like this? Even a person like me who doesn't know anything about soldering? If so, great for them too, too bad I missed them.


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## CosmicHolyGhost

I really hope this proj will take off cos it should be fun


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## TekeRugburn

amberozl said:


> Easily like this? Even a person like me who doesn't know anything about soldering? If so, great for them too, too bad I missed them.




Yeah, ibasso


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## MrScratch

Quote: 





omsjtmz32 said:


> .....


 
   
  You still have all of your organs, right? If you meet the right people, you'll be able to afford both.


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## Phredd

Only six months. That's much quicker than all the Kickstarter projects I pledged. 

Any chance you can fit the cross feed in a dip switch?


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## Chefano

D here!
  I wanna one now *-*
  Btw, how can I place my pre-order?


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## pietcux

Hi James, assuming you got to listen to a prototype already, could you clearly make out your favorite setup, or is it a long journey and hard to discriminate?


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## Homage

I'd also like to know about signing up to get this limited E12 model.
  I've never done this prototype deal before, so how does payment for the item work, do we pay a deposit, or is everything paid up front, or nearer the completion date of the item???
   
  Thanks
   
  Mark


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## MrScratch

Quote: 





homage said:


> I've never done this prototype deal before, so how does payment for the item work, do we pay a deposit, or is everything paid up front, or nearer the completion date of the item???


 
  Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> [size=10.5pt]Owing to the high cost of the high quality audio OP (the supplier has no stocks available), we can only move to production process after got the FULL PAYMENT of reservation.[/size]


 
   
  Obviously this will be only possibile if they reach a minimum amount (+500) of reservations.


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## JamesFiiO

sorry, will update more detail information soon, but the first thing is that we decided that the color will be silver by the result of  the vote. so we can go ahead fast. 
   
  about the pre order, and the minimum quantity , it seems we need to figure out an easy way so we can handle the pre order cause it become too complex to us to handle this project.


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## AmberOzL

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> sorry, will update more detail information soon, but the first thing is that we decided that the color will be silver by the result of  the vote. so we can go ahead fast.
> 
> about the pre order, and the minimum quantity , it seems we need to figure out an easy way so we can handle the pre order cause it become too complex to us to handle this project.


 

 Nice so far. I am waiting and yes probably I will pair it with FiiO X5


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## doki81

Why not put it on kickstarter or indiegogo cloud funding platform?


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## JamesFiiO

updated some information in first page. and we decided silver will be the color and how to pre order.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





doki81 said:


> Why not put it on kickstarter or indiegogo cloud funding platform?


 
   
  Kickstarter do not open to Chinese company.


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## mitsu763

I was about to order this until I saw the crossfeed and bass boost was removed


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## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> updated some information in first page. and we decided silver will be the color and how to pre order.



Regarding the send payment... Is it pay thru paypal?


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## OmsJtmz32

Like the plain and simple design. Bass boost and crossfeed not needed for me, now just thinking whether i can wait so long.


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## MrScratch

James, I'd like to know if I can get the DIY E12 and one or two HS2 in the same order/package. I'll need those to do some A/B testing with the regular E12.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





mrscratch said:


> James, I'd like to know if I can get the DIY E12 and one or two HS2 in the same order/package. I'll need those to do some A/B testing with the regular E12.


 
   
  yes, we will try to see if we can open a online shop on ebay so it make thing more easy to us to manage the pre order, but right now you can note it in the payment.


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## JamesFiiO

The op and buf for E12DIY includes
   
  OP AMP:
   
  1, OPA1611;      Single channel, SOP8, 2 pcs
   
  2, OPA604;        Single channel, SOP8, 2 pcs
   
  3, OPA&97;        Single channel, SOP8, 2 pcs
   
  4, OPA8620;       Two Channels, SOP8, 2 pcs,
   
  BUF:
   
  1, BUF634 ;        Single channel, DDPAK, 2 pcs
   
  2, LME49600;     Single channel, TS5B, 2 pcs
   
  3, LMH6321;       Single channel, SOP8, 2 pcs
   
  So you will have 12 different combo for the OP and BUF, and the total quantity of the OP and Buf are 13pcs.
   
  The retail price of these op/buf worth about $80 if you buy it in digi key.


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## JamesFiiO

Very sorry, since there still have some fans buy the HS2 from us via pay@fiio.com.cn and the money is the same US$20, so we change the deposit from us$20 to US$19 so we can separate both.
   
  [size=15.555556297302246px]Also please email to E12DIY@fiio.net if you have any question about E12DIY project.[/size]


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## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> Very sorry, since there still have some fans buy the HS2 from us via pay@fiio.com.cn and the money is the same US$20, so we change the deposit from us$20 to US$19 so we can separate both.
> 
> 
> [size=15.555556297302246px]Also please email to E12DIY@fiio.net if you have any question about E12DIY project.[/size]



Hi James, 

I have transferred USD 20 yesterday but in the payment remark I did indicate it's for e12diy pre order.. Is it ok?


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





doki81 said:


> Hi James,
> 
> I have transferred USD 20 yesterday but in the payment remark I did indicate it's for e12diy pre order.. Is it ok?


 
   
  It is OK, please PM me your paypal a/c or just send email to E12DIY .


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## CosmicHolyGhost

deposit paid. Go Fiio Go!


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## ClieOS

cosmicholyghost said:


> deposit paid. Go Fiio Go!




Same here


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## Hal Rockwell

Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> Very sorry, since there still have some fans buy the HS2 from us via pay@fiio.com.cn and the money is the same US$20, so we change the deposit from us$20 to US$19 so we can separate both.
> 
> [size=15.555556297302246px]Also please email to E12DIY@fiio.net if you have any question about E12DIY project.[/size]


 
   
  Hi James,
   
  Please update the first post with those prices.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





hal rockwell said:


> Hi James,
> 
> Please update the first post with those prices.


 
   
  thanks, already updated


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## duyu

Quote: 





cosmicholyghost said:


> deposit paid. Go Fiio Go!


 
  Me too. Go go go.


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## Hal Rockwell

Deposit paid.


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## frustin

I am seriously considering a E12 Mont Blanc, I came over to this forum to have a read of peoples thoughts, then I saw this thread.
   
  Being a dance, techno, house lover, am I to expect that I will get the most out of this type of music with the DIY unit?  I'm no stranger to op-amps and IC so that's not going to be my problem.  I'm just looking for that extra bit to add to my music experience.
   
  Thanks for any thoughts.
  Justin


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## MrScratch

Deposit paid. ^_^


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## lalala6

Deposit paid. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  That silver looks really cool!


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## hellfire8888

sorry i am new..so i understand there are 12 possible combos but in order to use them do i need to solder it to the pcb? so if yes once solder how do i change the combo? or is it just plug n play?


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## MrScratch

Take a look on the first page, no soldering iron needed.


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## balancebox

so its $200 ? hmm will it drive 600ohms headphones


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## hellfire8888

i am not sure what to expect from the different combo...is it like eg wider sound stage combo .. more bassy combo.. darker sound combo etc?


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## evilhippie

Deposit paid as well... can't wait for this!


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## rdsreference

Deposit paid hope I'll manage to handle to install the op amp


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## TekeRugburn

Deposit made.


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## TekeRugburn

Are the opamps in the kit set in stone or maybe they could change?


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## JamesFiiO

*[size=15.555556297302246px]Important notice: to change the op or buf, you don't need to have any solder skill, there are socket on the PCB.[/size]*


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## ClieOS

Quote: 





tekerugburn said:


> Are the opamps in the kit set in stone or maybe they could change?


 
   
  Buffer will be hard to change but the three included are some of the best around, so there is no real need to change them. As for opamp, you are not limited to those included. However, not all opamp will be compatible.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





clieos said:


> Buffer will be hard to change but the three included are some of the best around, so there is no real need to change them. As for opamp, you are not limited to those included. However, not all opamp will be compatible.


 
   
   
  the buf can be changed too! will release more photos about how to change the OP and buf.


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## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> the buf can be changed too! will release more photos about how to change the OP and buf.


 
Wow... I gonna stop reading this thread until December...


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## Mansunz

Deposit paid. X3 + E12. What am I going to do with my e17


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## bowei006

Quote: 





doki81 said:


> Wow... I gonna stop reading this thread until December...


 
  Quote: 





mansunz said:


> Deposit paid. X3 + E12. What am I going to do with my e17


 
   
*"Welcome to Head-Fi Folks! Sorry about your wallet!"*
   
  You can give the E17 to your family member, play with it, use it in another setup, use it as another portable unit, or sell it.


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## DMax99

jamesfiio said:


> Introduction of E12 DIY limited Version
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are these the op amps that will be included with the e12?


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## frustin

how many pcs are you up to now?


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## Reima

Deposit made.


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## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





dmax99 said:


> Are these the op amps that will be included with the e12?


 
   
  yes


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## RAFA

Deposit is done!
   
  Hopefully we will reach the 500pcs.


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## cleg

Well, I hope this will be a present to X-Mas that I'll made for myself.


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## Magicman74

This looks like a good deal, Never understood why they didn't start the e12 like this in the first place?  It has enough room for 2 Buf634's and either LM4562 or LT1364 to start. That would be a much better sounding unit then the " Standard" E12 now.  Put those on dips, and you could have swapped opamps from the start.  That kept me away from buying one the first time.


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## bowei006

Quote: 





magicman74 said:


> This looks like a good deal, Never understood why they didn't start the e12 like this in the first place?  It has enough room for 2 Buf634's and either LM4562 or LT1364 to start. That would be a much better sounding unit then the " Standard" E12 now.  Put those on dips, and you could have swapped opamps from the start.  That kept me away from buying one the first time.


 
  Warranty, support, cost, problems arising, market needs
   
  There is no warranty on devices like this
   
  With such a DIY device, some will probably mess up or can't read the directions. Thus more support questions.
   
  Problems will arise with people who toy with their units than with those who don't.
   
  And most people probably don't need the $80-$100 cost increase for this DIY version and just want an amp. 
   
  This new version is for people like you, who didn't buy one initially because they wanted one like this. It's the best of both worlds.


----------



## JamesFiiO

thanks for everyone who sent the deposit.


----------



## Chefano

But James, how much should I deposit?


----------



## AmberOzL

Quote: 





chefano said:


> But James, how much should I deposit?


 

 19 $, according to the first post in the thread.


----------



## RAFA

Quote: 





amberozl said:


> 19 $, according to the first post in the thread.


 
   
  I do not know how the others did it, but I clicked the option, that I have bought something over the internet e.g. Fiio must have paid the Paypal-fees. Somehow I think, I did it wrong.


----------



## AmberOzL

Quote: 





rafa said:


> I do not know how the others did it, but I clicked the option, that I have bought something over the internet e.g. Fiio must have paid the Paypal-fees. Somehow I think, I did it wrong.


 

 I am not sure I understood the problem, so all I can is, try to contact James, I am sure he can help you (well he will probably see your post and try to help from here too).


----------



## Chefano

Im sorry I missed that.
Gonna deposit now.


----------



## RAFA

Quote: 





amberozl said:


> I am not sure I understood the problem, so all I can is, try to contact James, I am sure he can help you (well he will probably see your post and try to help from here too).


 
   
  It is either you choose to send the money as a gift or send it like it was a purchase for something. I did not send it as a gift. They way I sent the money, Fiio will have to pay the Paypal fees for the 19$.
   
  I do not know, if this is ok.


----------



## hoekeat

is it too much to expect E12 to be able to drive Beyer DT880 600ohm with any of these opamp?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





hoekeat said:


> is it too much to expect E12 to be able to drive Beyer DT880 600ohm with any of these opamp?


 
   
  The opamp is lesser a problem, the gain is the main issue on high impedance headphone as you might not get enough volume if the gain is not set high enough. If we assume the gain setting is the same as the normal E12, then you should be alright.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





clieos said:


> The opamp is lesser a problem, the gain is the main issue on high impedance headphone as you might not get enough volume if the gain is not set high enough. If we assume the gain setting is the same as the normal E12, then you should be alright.


 
   
  the E12DIY will comes with a detail circuit diagram which help people mod it and get the best performance . for example, high gain good for very high impedance headphone with some very low output level source like iPod.
   
  but the hiss will also higher than low gain. it just depend on what you will use it .


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





rafa said:


> I do not know how the others did it, but I clicked the option, that I have bought something over the internet e.g. Fiio must have paid the Paypal-fees. Somehow I think, I did it wrong.


 
   
  yes, we will pay the paypal fee in our side. it is not a big deal ( 4%).


----------



## MrScratch

I did the same mistake, then. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I'll make sure to chose the other option when I'll pay the balance. (⌒_⌒


----------



## hoekeat

clieos said:


> The opamp is lesser a problem, the gain is the main issue on high impedance headphone as you might not get enough volume if the gain is not set high enough. If we assume the gain setting is the same as the normal E12, then you should be alright.




interesting. but i thought the choice of opamp will affect the output power.
Also, what is the affect of changing the buffer? is there anyone knowledgeable enough to give an expectation of each opamp/buffer in this package?


----------



## hellfire8888

another quick question ..is it possible to purchase other opamp on our own like cs4398 and just plug it into the slot?


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





hellfire8888 said:


> another quick question ..is it possible to purchase other opamp on our own like cs4398 and just plug it into the slot?


 
  CS4398 is not an op amp. It is a DAC by Cirrus Logic.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





hoekeat said:


> interesting. but i thought the choice of opamp will affect the output power.
> Also, what is the affect of changing the buffer? is there anyone knowledgeable enough to give an expectation of each opamp/buffer in this package?


 
   
  If it is opamp directly to output, your assumption will be correct. In the case of E12DIY however, there is a buffer stage so the buffer will be handling the current output while the opamp is there for the gain. Since gain is set by the feedback resistors, different opamp will not show any major difference in gain.
   
  Every circuit is designed differently (and hopefully so). There is really no way to predict how different combo will sound.
   
  Quote: 





hellfire8888 said:


> another quick question ..is it possible to purchase other opamp on our own like cs4398 and just plug it into the slot?


 

 What Panda said ^. But regarding opamp rolling - yes, it is possible. However, opamps ain't universally compatible to each other and therefore you need to be absolutely sure the opamp you swap in will at least work on the supply voltage, or else you might risk damaging the opamp or the amp itself.


----------



## jeronimog1313

I got the E17 should I get the E12 special edition ?
  any suggestion


----------



## cleg

jeronimog1313 said:


> I got the E17 should I get the E12 special edition ?
> any suggestion




do you have any high impedance headphones? or headphones that are hard to drive (e.g. planar magnetic)? if yes, then you can try.
also, E12DIY — is a good way to try different opamps.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

How are the numbers going on this?


----------



## balancebox

paid


----------



## uponmysam

paid


----------



## MrJohnnyHan

Paid


----------



## sulcata_geo

Deposit is done.


----------



## toears

By any chance. Is it possible to see the different colors voted for ? I know the choice has been made, but still eager to see the different options..
   
  Are above the 500 pcs. Will it go into production ? Do I need to force friends to place orders


----------



## hellfire8888

Deposit paid on  Aug 22, 2013
   
Thanks
   
Another suggestion is could Fiio come out with a list of compatible chip which i can use with this unit later?
   
Thanks


----------



## JamesFiiO

Quote: 





hellfire8888 said:


> Deposit paid on  Aug 22, 2013
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Thanks, will add it when we back to office, but E12DIY should support all BUF in DIP8 ( single channel ) and OP in DIP8 ( two channels) or SOP8 ( single/two channels ).
   
  E12DIY will comes with some blank adaptor for some SOP8 op amp.


----------



## lukEM22

The unassembled version costs more than the assembled version? I may as well buy an airbrush and paint these whatever color people want, then take them apart and box them up.


----------



## AmberOzL

Quote: 





lukem22 said:


> The unassembled version costs more than the assembled version? I may as well buy an airbrush and paint these whatever color people want, then take them apart and box them up.


 

 You are fun at parties aren't you. Do you realize the opamp/buffer combos you can do with this amp easily and you get all you need in one package? So you can find your way what suits your sound preferences best? Don't even need soldering or something.


----------



## MrScratch

Quote: 





lukem22 said:


> The unassembled version costs more than the assembled version? I may as well buy an airbrush and paint these whatever color people want, then take them apart and box them up.


 
    
  Quote:


jamesfiio said:


> Introduction of E12 DIY limited Version
> 
> 
> The op and buf for E12DIY includes
> ...


 
  Quote: 





jamesfiio said:


> *[size=10.5pt]Remark:[/size]*[size=10.5pt] Last but not least, rather than making profits out of the production of E12 DIY, we just want to show our appreciation to our old customers. Due to the limited quantity, we are more concerned about promoting our brand image. As a matter of fact, only the cost of the random provided high quality OP equals to the differential of the retail prices of the two versions. That is to say, we put much effort in developing this item, yet couldn’t make profits on it.[/size]


 
   
  Obvious troll is obvious.


----------



## lukEM22

I wasnt trying to troll just looks like it may be possible that maybe I didnt read the whole thing 
  I know close to nothing about the technicalities of amps so all of those numbers mean nothing to me.


----------



## MrScratch

The numbers you see here refer to the pieces and the prices of the extra chips that will be *included* in the E12DIY package. You may don't know what they sound like but you should know they add value to the bundle. That's something even a novice should feel comfortable with. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I don't want to be rude but sometimes reading the first page and making use of the search button before posting appears to be a good idea (actually the first two posts would have been enough), so you might just know what the main discussion is about.
  As they say, you have the freedom of speech and the freedom to make a fool of yourself.


----------



## toears

Yeah I'm just happy to have signed up for what I hope will be a good compliment to my not yet decided pair of cans (gave my sh530 away). Will be fun to mix the different chips in order to find my preferred sound.

Any of you with extra interest and experience wh might suggest a good combo of the op amp and buffer ?

Or would that be impossible to have an 'intelligent' meaning about ?


----------



## lukEM22

You say you don't mean to be rude even though it seems to be your intention.
I also posted that it was my mistake right above your post, so practice what you preach.


----------



## JamesFiiO

updated: we have collect enough pre order for the E12DIY by now, so the project will go ahead and we still collecting the pre-order now.


----------



## duyu

Great!


----------



## jazzman7

Congratulations on making the numbers, James!  I've signed up for one.  Looking forward to it!


----------



## RAFA

jamesfiio said:


> updated: we have collect enough pre order for the E12DIY by now, so the project will go ahead and we still collecting the pre-order now.




When should we pay the rest of the money?

Thank you very much for this limited edition E12  I greatly asume, that it will pair well with the limited ESW11LTD.


----------



## DMax99

jamesfiio said:


> Thanks, will add it when we back to office, but E12DIY should support all BUF in DIP8 ( single channel ) and OP in DIP8 ( two channels) or SOP8 ( single/two channels ).
> 
> E12DIY will comes with some blank adaptor for some SOP8 op amp.




So this will work with 8 pin op amps?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





dmax99 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  You are quoting the answer to your own question.


----------



## SoulSyde

I am SO looking forward to this


----------



## DMax99

Is it really going to sound that good?


----------



## SoulSyde

Who knows?


----------



## DMax99

soulsyde said:


> Who knows?




Hmm... Because 200 bucks is a high price for a little sound change/improvement


----------



## SoulSyde

As a consumer you have the choice to not buy one. 

All I have to say is "op amp rolling." 'Nuff said.


----------



## hoekeat

Am really on the fence between this and cMoyBB, both seems to be solid performer. Mainly looking for amp to power DT880/600ohm from DacPort, listens to instrumental, classical, vocal etc etc. Which route should I go?


----------



## SoulSyde

I don't see a cMoy being able to power 600ohm headphones with the authority they require. If the E12DIY doesn't meet your budget requirements you should consider the regular E12 as well.


----------



## martybm5

^^^ +1


----------



## JamesFiiO

Notice:  the pre order still valid. but we will like to give more chance to our fans and head-fi'ers.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

James will your team send PayPal invoice when the unit is about to shop months later? Many thanks


----------



## pietcux

Seems that we need to pay in advance as soon as the preorder stops:
   
3, When we stop the pre order in Sep, please balance the payment ( send the rest money US$180 to pay@fiio.com.cn ) and wait the shipment after 3 month .


----------



## duyu

James also said,
   
"The unit cost depends on the purchase quantity, so here we just tentatively set at its highest possible price, but would update with the real selling price right before payment stage."


----------



## RAFA

Quote: 





duyu said:


> James also said,
> 
> "The unit cost depends on the purchase quantity, so here we just tentatively set at its highest possible price, but would update with the real selling price right before payment stage."


 
   
  Ok, I will better not rush things then.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Well I have signed up also as I have been REALLY impressed by their Mont Blanc (and I am a valve man). The idea of rolling ICs sort of apeals to a valve man Also looking at X3 as I liked the Mont Blanc quality. I also like how FiiO are asking what people want.


----------



## SoulSyde

nic rhodes said:


> Well I have signed up also as I have been REALLY impressed by their Mont Blanc ... I also like how FiiO are asking what people want.


 
  
 Well said.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Updates regarding the E12 DIY program!

To all the supporters of FiiO E12 DIY program,

Up till now, we have already got enough pre-orders to carry on this program.
For better management, we decide to set it as 1000pcs for the production of this limited edition.

For now, the pre-order quantity is a little less than 1000pcs, which means we still have a few open for pre-order.
Therefore, we extend the pre-order time limit to Sep 10th, any order from end-users or agents after this time would be rejected.

What’s more, due to the pre-order quantity run above 500pcs, the estimated purchase cost goes down a little bit,
so here we are more than happy to inform you that you can get this lovely E12 DIY at 180USD in total.
For those who are still have the plan to get one, please hurry up and try to pay 19USD as deposit
to confirm pre-order or you can just make full payment 180USD to our PayPal account: pay@fiio.com.cn.

Remarks:
1. For those who had already paid 19USD as the deposit, please send us the 161USD balance payment before the date of Oct 10th.
2. In case of any left over after the pre-order, we would sell it out to other end-users, while the selling price would go above 200USD.


----------



## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> Updates regarding the E12 DIY program!
> 
> To all the supporters of FiiO E12 DIY program,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi james,
  
 when is the last day to pay the 161?


----------



## duyu

doki81 said:


> when is the last day to pay the 161?


 
  
 Oct 10th.


----------



## MrScratch

@James: I've stated in my previous deposit that I wanted 2 HS2 so I needed to pay 221USD instead of 181. Since I'm going to pay the balance, I'd like to know if I just have to send you the remaining 201USD ($161 + $20 + $20). Do I need to take any further steps?


----------



## MrJohnnyHan

Paid the balance payment.


----------



## balancebox

awesome nice to see fiio passing the saving to consumer
  
 have a fiio x3 on the way from massdrop, cant wait
  
 thanks james


----------



## JamesFiiO

mrscratch said:


> @James: I've stated in my previous deposit that I wanted 2 HS2 so I needed to pay 221USD instead of 181. Since I'm going to pay the balance, I'd like to know if I just have to send you the remaining 201USD ($161 + $20 + $20). Do I need to take any further steps?


 
  
 not， just note it when you balance the payment via paypal.


----------



## hellfire8888

James if i want to add 1 unit of HS2 too is it ok? Please say ok..


----------



## toears

Soo crazy. usd180. Xie xie ni! FiiO seem to do this project great! JAMES, sorry to ask, but when do you expect to ship ?

Thank you.


----------



## MrScratch

Paid the balance!


----------



## earfonia

Full payment sent!
  
 I came to know about this project a bit late, but not too late to pre-order one 
 I really appreciate the initiative and effort by Fiio for this project!  To go through the hassle of producing such a unique product for Head-Fi and DIY enthusiast, at such a reasonable price.
  
 I just love for being able to tune the amplifier to the sound signature that suit my preference   Now waiting patiently.....
  
 One question, the US$ 180 is inclusive of international shipping right ?
 Can I expect that the delivery would be around January 2014 ?


----------



## miriddin

I just pre ordered my unit!
  
 Full payement send today (Just in time!)


----------



## ampair

deposit made yesterday, hope i'm still in for one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 James, since it's a limited edition would (one of) the following be possible:
  

add a serial #
maybe based on the sequence of preorders
maybe even engraved on the case?

add signature of one/some/all of the people involved in building it, or just of the one who does the final quality check, and call it "E12 Signature Series" (engraved?)
another idea for a name: "Massif du Mont Blanc" (french) or "Mont Blanc Massif" (english). this would include the whole mountain range with all the side peaks, symbolizing the many different op/buf combinations that are possible.
  
 as for the engraving stuff: i understand this would increase the production costs, so if this isn't possible/feasible it still would be nice to include a special certificate in the package.
  
 ps: if you do the serial # thing, i'd like to have either #1, #918 (birthday) or #1000


----------



## SoulSyde

James, could you also please include a Swedish massage and your finest bottle of wine? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ...J/K, descent suggestions if possible.
  
 Except I would like #1.


----------



## magisterarus

Full payment made!


----------



## ampair

soulsyde said:


> James, could you also please include a Swedish massage and your finest bottle of wine?


 
  
 well, now that you mention it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 maybe you get that when you pick it up at the factory in person, might depend on your negotiation talents though


----------



## sepinho

Just ordered one, I hope we get the required minimum of 1,000 pre-orders together!


----------



## earfonia

Hi James, i have made payments for 2 units, will we get any payment receipt / acknowledgment from FiiO?
I think that's quite standard right, as a proof of purchase.
Thanks!


----------



## hellfire8888

Hi James just made full payment for E12DIY and the HS2 as well. USD181 total .
  
 Thanks


----------



## hoekeat

earfonia said:


> Hi James, i have made payments for 2 units, will we get any payment receipt / acknowledgment from FiiO?
> I think that's quite standard right, as a proof of purchase.
> Thanks!


 
 +1


----------



## zillagto

Paid full balance!  Can't wait!


----------



## ClieOS

Paid...now just the 3 months wait...


----------



## SoulSyde

^


----------



## CaptainFlam

Pre Order are closed ?


----------



## JamesFiiO

captainflam said:


> Pre Order are closed ?


 
  
  
 yes, but you still have chance to buy one but you will need to pay more money.


----------



## CaptainFlam

Ok I'll wait for the official sales thanks


----------



## amature101

Anyone thinking of pairing it with MUSES op-am ?


----------



## ClieOS

amature101 said:


> Anyone thinking of pairing it with MUSES op-am ?


 
  
  I already have all the MUSES (01/02/8820/8920) waiting.


----------



## hoekeat

clieos said:


> I already have all the MUSES (01/02/8820/8920) waiting.




i am a newbie, care to supply a little more info?


----------



## ClieOS

hoekeat said:


> i am a newbie, care to supply a little more info?


 
  
 Well, there are a lot of opamp out there but only a few are regarded as the best sounding (*debatable in some case, but let's make it simple and assume we have some consensus here). The MUSES series, or at least the MUSES01 and MUSES02, are marketed by JRC as the top-of-the-line audio opamp. The MUSES8820 and 8920 are marketed as the mass-production versions that are not as good as the 01 and 02, but still above average. Personally I'll agree the 01 and 02 are indeed excellent sounding. The 8820 and 8920 are however pretty normal, no better or worst than the more common OPA2134 or OPA2227.
  
 The opamp included with the E12DIY are also highly regarded as well. Now you might wonder why FiiO doesn't include MUSES01 or 02? Well, the reason I think is simple. Because those two are one of the most expensive opamp around, costing $50 each, not to mention very hard to find (*authorized retailer requires minimum order of 100 chip, per order!).
  
 Besides MUSES, I think another opamp on my must-try list is the OPA627.


----------



## amature101

what the difference between MUSES 01 and 02? Which can give better bass?


----------



## ClieOS

amature101 said:


> what the difference between MUSES 01 and 02? Which can give better bass?


 
  
 They are based on two different internal design, to put it simple. Both are actually very neutral.
  
 Anyway, changing opamp doesn't equal to EQ. Though they have different sound due to how they behave differently in the same circuit, most of them don't give you extra / lesser bass in quantity.


----------



## SoulSyde

ClieOS is right. I own a DAC with a MUSES01 opamp and it's stunning. The instrument separation and wide soundstage is exactly what I was looking for. That being said its neutral without being too analytical. I've never tried the MUSES02 but I suspect that it will not be boomy in the lower region like the MUSES01.


----------



## hellfire8888

Hi ClieOS
  
 Thanks for the explanation. And now the magic question can you pm me where to buy ? 
 thanks


----------



## ClieOS

hellfire8888 said:


> Hi ClieOS
> 
> Thanks for the explanation. And now the magic question can you pm me where to buy ?
> thanks


 
  
 Not that I don't want to help you, I just don't know a relatively inexpensive and reliable place I can recommend to you. The MUSES I have are all from other amp, so technically I didn't buy them. The most reliable place to get real MUSES01/02 will be Audiotrak Korea, but they are pricing them $79 a pop + shipping. They make gears and use the opamp themselves, so there is no question of fake. Otherwise you have to risk it on eBay with the Chinese / HK seller, which could turn out to be fake.
  
 Another fairly reliable way is to order them from Japan using forwarding service like Tenso.com + Rakuten. This is probably the cheapest since MUSES are cheaper in Japan.


----------



## amature101

clieos said:


> They are based on two different internal design, to put it simple. Both are actually very neutral.
> 
> Anyway, changing opamp doesn't equal to EQ. Though they have different sound due to how they behave differently in the same circuit, most of them don't give you extra / lesser bass in quantity.


 
 If they does not change the EQ, what does they do?
  


soulsyde said:


> ClieOS is right. I own a DAC with a MUSES01 opamp and it's stunning. The instrument separation and wide soundstage is exactly what I was looking for. That being said its neutral without being too analytical. I've never tried the MUSES02 but I suspect that it will not be boomy in the lower region like the MUSES01.


 
 What do you mean by "boomy in the lower region"


----------



## amature101

is this limited edition version susceptible to emi like the fiio e12


----------



## ClieOS

amature101 said:


> If they does not change the EQ, what does they do?


 
  
 Think of opamp like an engine in a car. Better engine will give higher performance. EQ is more like a changeable drivetrain, allowing you to be either front-wheels drive, rear-wheels drive or 4 wheels drive, and sending more power to whichever wheel you want. In short. opamp is the heart of the circuit and affects the performance of the whole system. EQ on the other hand is about changing the quantity of frequency distribution, and doesn't necessary improves the quality.
  
  


amature101 said:


> is this limited edition version susceptible to emi like the fiio e12


 
  
 EMI has a lot to do with the opamp used. With roll-able configuration, it is likely we will see different EMI susceptibleness with different opamp.


----------



## SoulSyde

amature101 said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "boomy in the lower region"




"Bass-heavy."


----------



## amature101

Thanks to all for the reply !! Have a great day!


----------



## pietcux

What is EMI?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Electromagnetic Interference


----------



## pietcux

This is directed at cellphone usage creating noise in some DAPs more than in others?


----------



## K.T.

Wow, I only ordered my stock E12 today and then ran across this thread. I really want the signature to tailor the sound! But the ~ $200 US that the preordered units cost is as much as I can spend. 

How much more will they cost when they go into production? It may be out of my price range, I fear. Is there no way to get in on the preorder? That will be the only way I can afford one.

K.T.


----------



## RAFA

k.t. said:


> Wow, I only ordered my stock E12 today and then ran across this thread. I really want the signature to tailor the sound! But the ~ $200 US that the preordered units cost is as much as I can spend.
> 
> How much more will they cost when they go into production? It may be out of my price range, I fear. Is there no way to get in on the preorder? That will be the only way I can afford one.
> 
> K.T.




As far as I know, this is a limited edition. There will not be more.


----------



## SoulSyde

I thought so too.


----------



## balancebox

sent the rest of the funds!
  
 cant wait


----------



## MrScratch

Until James says otherwise, there are still some spare units if you want to buy one, but you won't get it at the preorder "special" price.

You should send a PM to James, maybe you can convince him...


----------



## RAFA

Its done. I am so much looking forward to this. Waiting will be pretty hard 
  
 Thank you for the opportunity James.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Yes also paid in full.


----------



## K.T.

Well, I did contact James and he's pretty firm on holding sales to those who met the pre-order deadline. 

That's unfortunate for me since I only found out about the existence of the E12DIY two weeks after pre-orders were closed. But I totally understand James's position regarding this.

So I desperately would like get the DIY unit and can only ask that if anyone is having buyer's remorse, that I would gladly purchase your unit from you once the orders have gone through.

Again, though, I would only be able to pay the nominal price that is being charged for the DIY unit, as I've purchased 3 FiiO amps in the last 3 weeks (including a stock E12 which just arrived 2 days ago) and my budget is tapped dry!

If anyone is in such a position, please PM me. Thanks.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

is there an email alert of these FiiO 'specials'?


----------



## JamesFiiO

To all people who missed the pre-order, it is unfair to people who pay the deposit and joined the pre order first if we allow people can still pre order the E12DIY after the deadline. 
  
and none will interested join the similar activity in the future. I am sorry for this although I can understand your situation.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

Just paid the rest.... almost forgot.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 edited to avoid confusions


----------



## JamesFiiO

cosmicholyghost said:


> Just paid the rest.... almost forgot....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 sorry,


----------



## doki81

so for those who already paid 19usd..we shd pay another 180usd to finish off the payment? or 161usd?


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

edited to avoid confusion


----------



## JamesFiiO

oh, very sorry, since the total quantity is over 500pcs, so we change the price to $180 , it means $19 deposit and the rest is $161. we will refund the extra money.
  
Again, the final unit price is $180 not $199.


----------



## balancebox

Will we get like a unit number on device? If its gonna cost more nvm =)

And james will we get a email confirmation?


----------



## goldenSHK

Would have definitely pre-ordered if the crossfeed/soundfield gain switch was kept in. Still, every time I check this thread out I am more and more curious about how this amp would sound with all the different pp amp combinations, so I have to ask, when will we know if remaining amps built after the pre-order will be sold at full price? I'm not looking at getting in on the pre-order, I know that is unfair to the buyers so when/where should we look for remaining amps to be sold at the higher price? There's no rush, I'm simply curious.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Can the unit be shipped via airmail with tracking number instead of the express services?


----------



## amature101

Hello, any updates on how it will start to be produced and ship out?


----------



## ClieOS

Production (or more precisely, the ordering of parts) already begin when the pre-order ended. As for shipping date, it is going to be some time December as planned.


----------



## Shawn71

jamesfiio said:


> yes, but you still have chance to buy one but you will need to pay more money.


 
 How much would that be? I and many head-fiers like me interested to order......though we past pre-order.


----------



## Choosy

Hi there, 

mi interested but in delay ... What to' do ? There i still room for purchqsing and how ?

Thz


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Paid in full.


----------



## Shawn71

jamesfiio said:


> yes, but you still have chance to buy one but you will need to pay more money.


 
 @JamesFiiO: Sorry to ask the same question, for me and on behalf of other head-fi'ers as well, those who missed the pre-ordering wagon........
  
 How much would that be.......paying "more money" top of $180.
 we LOVE LIFE, we LOVE MUSIC, we LOVE FiiO and we LOVE TO PAY the reasonable additional $$ , but let us know the figure.
  
 And any sp. instructions/note while paying...if at all.
  
 Ty, Appreciate it.


----------



## Choosy

Hi Shawn 

I'm on your same wavelength .....

Chees


----------



## Shiikamaru

any news james? already past the payment period.


----------



## Chefano

clieos said:


> Not that I don't want to help you, I just don't know a relatively inexpensive and reliable place I can recommend to you. The MUSES I have are all from other amp, so technically I didn't buy them. The most reliable place to get real MUSES01/02 will be Audiotrak Korea, but they are pricing them $79 a pop + shipping. They make gears and use the opamp themselves, so there is no question of fake. Otherwise you have to risk it on eBay with the Chinese / HK seller, which could turn out to be fake.
> 
> Another fairly reliable way is to order them from Japan using forwarding service like Tenso.com + Rakuten. This is probably the cheapest since MUSES are cheaper in Japan.


 
  
 Hi ClieOS, how are you?
  
 Im really interested in using the tense service, looks cheap to have access to all japanese stores. Have you ordered yours using Tenso + rakuten?
  
 Regards!


----------



## ClieOS

I have used Tenso service several times before, but mainly with Amazon Japan.


----------



## K.T.

I think the information derived from folk's experimentation with the DIY amp (once they are sent out and played with) will be interesting.
  
 I'm sure James and his team listened to all the permutations of op-amps and buffers and settled on what they thought was best in terms of sound (and potentially cost of manufacturing - a legitimate business concern) for the current E12. Synergy with one's gear differs, of course, and so does personal taste, so there cannot be one solution that will suit everybody's ears.
  
 I will be interested to see through users's experimentation with the DIY E12, whether there will be a combination that stands out head-and-shoulders above the rest for a great majority of the users. If so, would it not be a basis for a revision of the E12, or even an alternative flavor of the amp? I guess this is what they mean by "crowd sourcing".
  
 Anyway, a very exciting opportunity offered by James. I wish other manufacturers were so accommodating to their users in terms of experimentation with a product.
  
I would love to own the DIY amp and am also lobbying for it to be available in the future. Of course, if anybody wants to part with their DIY E12 ahead of that time, I would be interested in purchasing it.
  
 I can't wait to hear what everyone think once they get a chance to roll some chips!


----------



## psychon

Hi, i know I'm late to this but is it possible to still order the DIY upgrade set? Thanks


----------



## MrJohnnyHan

-Deleted-


----------



## harkohark

Looks hot- Hopefully no more headphone jack issues like the E17


----------



## SoulSyde

mrjohnnyhan said:


> Edited earlier comments.Decided to keep it, waiting for the arrival of my E12DIY.




Well played sir.


----------



## NSign

I want to know too about paying after the end of pre-order cost ?
  
 Thank you.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

Guys, Fiio sent an email to confirm the shipping address and contact info and looks like the delivery will be in early Dec


----------



## j0ewhite

Yes I'd received the email too. The return email address is E12DIY@fiio.net.
  
 This is legit right? =)


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

Think its legit, just dont click reply to all


----------



## MrScratch

It's absolutely legit, can't wait!


----------



## Shawn71

Guys..... it's FiiO. No Need to be panic.


----------



## JamesFiiO

we have made a golden case for E12DIY, should we start an vote so we can change to the golden case for E12DIY? below is the real photo.


----------



## JamesFiiO

I think everyone known the reason that we took time to make different color !


----------



## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> I think everyone known the reason that we took time to make different color !



Is the gold coating as durable as silver?


----------



## JamesFiiO

doki81 said:


> Is the gold coating as durable as silver?


 
  
 yes


----------



## j0ewhite

Actually... I prefer silver... But hey, it'd just me...


----------



## goldenSHK

Wow, if I knew it was going to be gold I would have ordered one for sure and possibly multiples as gifts! Dang.


----------



## Shawn71

jamesfiio said:


> we have made a golden case for E12DIY, should we start an vote so we can change to the golden case for E12DIY? below is the real photo.


 
 GOLD!
 Jim - Would u pls confirm the price for those who past the "Pre-Order" wagon? I've had asked this same question twice past 2 weeks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Appreciate a timely response.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

I want GOLD!!! I wish to use this with my gold edition X1! I know for the fact that gold will sound better...


----------



## Shiikamaru

I want silver only. if you're gonna make it gold, please make it an option as color might have been a consideration as people might want the silver in the first place. just to be fair to those that preordered on the promise of whats been shown.


----------



## doki81

my fiio x3 and dx50 both black...i think silver E12DIY will be more suitable to pair with black....
  
 if only i have ip5s champagne gold...then i would consider gold e12diy...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Definately Silver please


----------



## Shawn71

shiikamaru said:


> I want silver only. if you're gonna make it gold, please make it an option as color might have been a consideration as people might want the silver in the first place. just to be fair to those that preordered on the promise of whats been shown.


 
 +1. color option is most welcome instead of going for ONLY GOLD now. even if upcoming/present votes might favors gold. Most of us were aware of posted recommendations like just Red knob,naming conventions, etc during the pre-order era and finalized on Silver. "Only Gold" might disappointment most,as there's a color deviation now against what was finalized. most of us registered silver on our minds and eagerly waiting to pass 2013.


----------



## duyu

Remind me of this robot....
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Warrior_Gold_Lightan


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

classic!


----------



## SoulSyde

Silver.. Or I would like a refund.


----------



## jazzman7

Platinum silver for my preorder - looks better with my gear.


----------



## Don Lehrer

Why don´t you better offer a second chance to the people that didn´t get the silver ones: go for the golden option!!!  I´m in


----------



## Shiikamaru

jamesfiio said:


> To all people who missed the pre-order, it is unfair to people who pay the deposit and joined the pre order first if we allow people can still pre order the E12DIY after the deadline.
> 
> and none will interested join the similar activity in the future. I am sorry for this although I can understand your situation.


 
  
  


don lehrer said:


> Why don´t you better offer a second chance to the people that didn´t get the silver ones: go for the golden option!!!  I´m in


 
 to answer your  question. above is what james wrote a few pages back.


----------



## goldenSHK

shiikamaru said:


> to answer your  question. above is what james wrote a few pages back.


 
 That was before the gold option which could serve as a separate "product preorder."


----------



## miriddin

I prefer to stay with Silver color for the "Pre-Order" Limited Edition, without a color choice option that can be confusing: IMHO it's better to have Silver Edition for pre-ordered units, eventually offering different color option for future release.
  
 Then, coming to a question to *JamesFiiO:*
  
 May i ask you what you think about using Muses01 or Muses02 on E12 DIY Limited Edition? Thanks!


----------



## ampair

to me, both colors look equally nice from an asthetic point of view.
 but i think silver would fit the device better since it's the more natural, "raw" color of the metal itself, thus representing the "do it yourself" part.
  
 just my 0.02€.


----------



## toears

Gold version for me, if I have a choice. Most important is that shipping is asap.:rolleyes:

Thank you fiio girls and guys.


----------



## SoulSyde

miriddin said:


> I prefer to stay with Silver color for the "Pre-Order" Limited Edition, without a color choice option that can be confusing: IMHO it's better to have Silver Edition for pre-ordered units, eventually offering different color option for future release.
> 
> Then, coming to a question to *JamesFiiO:*
> 
> May i ask you what you think about using Muses01 or Muses02 on E12 DIY Limited Edition? Thanks!




MUSES would be great but they're quite costly. My Venturecraft Go-DAP DD uses a MUSES01 opamp and it sounds fantastic.


----------



## Shiikamaru

goldenshk said:


> That was before the gold option which could serve as a separate "product preorder."


 
 his answer should still stand. it doesnt make sense to open a gold option e12 for you guys. thats like screwing those who supported the original preorder.


----------



## toears

well, maybe I misunderstood. I did the preorder. But about the color, I don't mind silver or gold. As long as shipping will be soon.


----------



## miriddin

soulsyde said:


> MUSES would be great but they're quite costly. My Venturecraft Go-DAP DD uses a MUSES01 opamp and it sounds fantastic.


 
 Thanks for your answer!
  
 I think that the real problem is finding a reliable source: i saw the couple Muses01 + Muses02 sold on eBay for € 55, but i don't know if it is a trusted seller...


----------



## RAFA

I like gold a little more, bu it does not matter to me. I am happy with silver too.


----------



## TekeRugburn

Either one is fine. Or maybe we could have both and add the extra money to have both cases.


----------



## TekeRugburn

Or even better fiio can act as a middle man for a group buy for the muses01 Opamp.


----------



## evilhippie

+1 to both those ideas... especially a group buy for the muses01, as there's so many fakes floating around in the wild and they're so difficult to source.


----------



## TekeRugburn

That's the thing I'm most worried about. I have no clue where to buy a legit one


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

I am in for the gp buy...


----------



## SoulSyde

tekerugburn said:


> Or even better fiio can act as a middle man for a group buy for the muses01 Opamp.


 
  
 I am also highly interested in this option, as unlikely as it may become.


----------



## SoulSyde

jamesfiio said:


> [




I like the new location of the gain switch in the front, as compared to the side in the initial renderings. I'm definitely looking forward to getting my hands on this amp.


----------



## TekeRugburn

Gain switch is still on the side


----------



## SoulSyde

tekerugburn said:


> Gain switch is still on the side


 
  
 Oh really?


----------



## evilhippie

So I wonder what the other switch might be then?  What a mystery!


----------



## TekeRugburn

soulsyde said:


> Oh really?




Then wth is that switch on the side?


----------



## evilhippie

It would be sweet if they managed to keep the bass boost in the final production version, though I'm sure that case design is just a template and won't represent the final product.  Still, one can hope...


----------



## TekeRugburn

evilhippie said:


> It would be sweet if they managed to keep the bass boost in the final production version, though I'm sure that case design is just a template and won't represent the final product.  Still, one can hope...


 
 bass boost is worthless imo.  If I wanted a bassy sound I'd buy a bassy earphone.


----------



## evilhippie

tekerugburn said:


> bass boost is worthless imo.  If I wanted a bassy sound I'd buy a bassy earphone.


 
  
 Normally I'd completely understand where you're coming from, but the 20hz boost on the first E12s was really something unique.  I wouldn't mind seeing that make a return on the E12DIY.  I haven't heard the 80hz boost on the second edition, but I'm assuming since its boosting the midbass that probably sounds more like a traditional bass boost.  I know theres a number of others who heard the original E12 and really enjoyed the boost on it, as its far more subtle than say, the bass boost on the JDS C5 I have.


----------



## SoulSyde

tekerugburn said:


> Then wth is that switch on the side?


 
  
 It's not a switch, it's the charge port.


----------



## evilhippie

soulsyde said:


> It's not a switch, it's the charge port.


 
  
 and I feel dumb!  Thanks for clearing that up


----------



## TekeRugburn

evilhippie said:


> Normally I'd completely understand where you're coming from, but the 20hz boost on the first E12s was really something unique.  I wouldn't mind seeing that make a return on the E12DIY.  I haven't heard the 80hz boost on the second edition, but I'm assuming since its boosting the midbass that probably sounds more like a traditional bass boost.  I know theres a number of others who heard the original E12 and really enjoyed the boost on it, as its far more subtle than say, the bass boost on the JDS C5 I have.


 
  
 Understandable.  I just like simpler amps without bass boost, crossfeed and whatever else they have now.


----------



## TekeRugburn

soulsyde said:


> It's not a switch, it's the charge port.


 
  
 I see I see; so many changes from the first mockup.


----------



## K.T.

I like both the silver and the gold cases.
  
 The silver looks great with the red lettering. The gold would also look great with red lettering, sort of like Iron Man.
  
 One thing I REALLY like about the gold case is its resemblance to a block of gold bullion. Really solid and smart looking!
  
 K.T.


----------



## Shawn71

k.t. said:


> I like both the silver and the gold cases.
> 
> The silver looks great with the red lettering. The gold would also look great with red lettering, sort of like Iron Man.
> 
> ...


 

 I think finally our Jim(JamesFiiO) is going to offer the gold enclosure kit alone separately, as a diy kit where we can switch the internals from the original silver(promised).This is the best possible way to compensate the FiiO fans imho.
  
 Anyways we gotta have to open the enclosure to snap in and out the OPAMPS....so we just unscrew the PCB and screw it on Gold,boom. vol knob to be a easy changeable solution ofcourse. Is there an alternate way to address the color issue,especially cost-wise both for FiiO and FiiO fans?
  
 The kit might cost max $12-$18 retail to FiiO Fans???


----------



## K.T.

A separately available gold case would be great. Folks getting the E12DIY will receive a silver case, which was jointly decided on, with an opportunity to also have a gold case. The best of both worlds.
  
 I guess the gold case will be available for the E12DIY only? The stock E12 has cutouts for crossfeed and bass boost switches that I assume the E12DIY will not have. So the gold case will not offer access to those switches? Does that sound about right?
  
 Also, did James spec the red lettering on the silver case? I think red lettering looks a lot sharper than black on the silver background.
  
 Cool stuff!


----------



## Shawn71

k.t. said:


> A separately available gold case would be great. Folks getting the E12DIY will receive a silver case, which was jointly decided on, with an opportunity to also have a gold case. The best of both worlds.
> 
> I guess the gold case will be available for the E12DIY only? The stock E12 has cutouts for crossfeed and bass boost switches that I assume the E12DIY will not have. So the gold case will not offer access to those switches? Does that sound about right?


 
 Yeah the same concept had been posted a while ago....like FiiO can offer golden enclosure with a additional reasonable price as an add-on.
  
 Well you might be right that E12DIY might not have CF and BB toggle OR might be placed in different place. Else the existing E12(Black) will have an golden opportunity to have color lift if those are planned to retain at the same place by our Jim....WoW!


----------



## SoulSyde

shawn71 said:


> Yeah the same concept had been posted a while ago....like FiiO can offer golden enclosure with a additional reasonable price as an add-on.
> 
> Well you might be right that E12DIY might not have CF and BB toggle OR might be placed in different place. Else the existing E12(Black) will have an golden opportunity to have color lift if those are planned to retain at the same place by our Jim....WoW!




Come on guys, it says on the first page that CF and BB have been removed from the DIY.


----------



## Shawn71

soulsyde said:


> Come on guys, it says on the first page that CF and BB have been removed from the DIY.


 

 my bad.....is it really confirmed yet? as it might change at the 11th hr just like the gold color option Jim planning for.


----------



## SoulSyde

I hope not. I don't want any additional circuitry in the design other than the opamp and buffers. I have my C421 for bass boost. Having owned an Arrow amp I never used the cross feed except for very rare 60s rock recordings that had ridiculous panning.


----------



## K.T.

Yes, no confusion over the CF and BB being removed from the E12DIY, here. 
  
 I was just wondering if the separately available gold case would be specifically fabricated for the E12DIY (no CF or BB cutouts) or whether it would be a more universal case (would have cutouts for CF and BB so owners of stock E12 would be able to use retrofit on standard units).
  
 Very cool in either case. No pun intended!


----------



## Shawn71

k.t. said:


> it would be a more universal case (would have cutouts for CF and BB so owners of stock E12 would be able to use retrofit on standard units).


 
 May be FiiO honor no Warranty in this case for the existing stock E12 customers, should FiiO offer that option.....so that's not going to benefit.


----------



## JamesFiiO

so far we still waiting for the IC from our supplier, so there are nothing to share 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .  our supplier told us that none do this before, order so many expensive OP amp and so many different models.


----------



## toears

No worries. All good yhings come to those who wait. Tnx. James.


----------



## SoulSyde

^ Well said.


----------



## j0ewhite

So will it make it for Christmas?


----------



## Reima

Silver for me.


----------



## toears

delivery time really depend on their suppliers delivery 'in time'   But, well most electronics are in some way originating from China. Actually I am thinking to put it under the tree.. for myself


----------



## ClieOS

toears said:


> delivery time really depend on their suppliers delivery 'in time'   But, well most electronics are in some way originating from China. Actually I am thinking to put it under the tree.. for myself


 
  
 Opamp are still mostly manufactured in USA and Japan actually. Going to an official business channel also take much more time than the 'unofficial' supplier / broker. But in return you don't have to worry about getting any fake or 2nd hand parts.


----------



## SoulSyde

Here come the price wars:
 http://store.treoo.com/main/fiio-e12diy-limited-edition-portable-headphone-amplifier-silver.html
  
 It's not even out yet and they have it re-selling for $320.


----------



## RAFA

soulsyde said:


> Here come the price wars:
> http://store.treoo.com/main/fiio-e12diy-limited-edition-portable-headphone-amplifier-silver.html
> 
> It's not even out yet and they have it re-selling for $320.




That is not ok.


----------



## Gilftronic

> Originally Posted by *SoulSyde*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah what the heck is going on here?


----------



## TekeRugburn

doesnt affect me any.


----------



## nihontoman

just don't buy from them. there, problem solved...


----------



## ClieOS

soulsyde said:


> Here come the price wars:
> http://store.treoo.com/main/fiio-e12diy-limited-edition-portable-headphone-amplifier-silver.html
> 
> It's not even out yet and they have it re-selling for $320.


 
  
 To cast some light onto this:
  
 Remember E12DIY is not meant to be resold when FiiO set the final price for us, so there is no 'reserved' margin for reseller at all given FiiO is already selling it at cost. The only way for reseller to make any money is to add to the final price, and then you have to realize whatever profit they make will have to subtract the cost of shipping, tax, stocking, etc. I am not sure what kind of price will be considered fair, but I am pretty sure if they are only charging $50 more, they are probably not making much money at all to worth the investment. On the other hand, a HK based reseller (Treoo is Singapore based) might be able to work out a lower price since they would have save a lot more due to their proximity to FiiO factory. A Brazil reseller might need a higher price for the same factor.
  
 Of course, there is also the factor of how much more money you can make when the demand is high.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Progress report on the E12DIY

1. All opamps have arrived.

2. The aluminium shells and a batch of microswitches will not arrive until early December.
  
3，Because we could not find any sockets of the right size for the SMT ICs, we have to make our own SMT to DIP8 socket conversion boards.  This requires soldering 200,000 pins and is estimated to take 20 days
  
4，Taking all of the above into consideration, we hope to deliver the preordered E12DIY boards to customers before Christmas.


----------



## Shawn71

jamesfiio said:


> Progress report on the E12DIY
> 
> 1. All opamps have arrived.
> 
> ...


 

 Hey James: what is the price for those WHO DID NOT PRE-ORDER?


----------



## JamesFiiO

shawn71 said:


> Hey James: what is the price for those WHO DID NOT PRE-ORDER?


 
  
 Not decided yet, sorry


----------



## Shawn71

jamesfiio said:


> Not decided yet, sorry


 

 I'm Happy for your Prompt response this time.... Any rough ETA for announcement? Thanks.


----------



## JamesFiiO

shawn71 said:


> I'm Happy for your Prompt response this time.... Any rough ETA for announcement? Thanks.


 
  
 15th, DEC, I hope our users can receive it as gift for X'mas


----------



## SoulSyde

jamesfiio said:


> 15th, DEC, I hope our users can receive it as gift for X'mas




Woot!


----------



## Shawn71

jamesfiio said:


> 15th, DEC, I hope our users can receive it as gift for X'mas


 

 Looks like you mis-understood......I'd asked, when(date) are you planning to announce the price for those WHO DID NOT PRE-ORDER?........as you haven't decided yet,now.


----------



## pietcux

They only ordered so many parts. Whith them they need to fulfill all preorders first. Then they can build as many more units or let us call it kits, as possible and also have to set aside qty X for service needs. Then they can see how many more they can sell and calculate the price. The devil is in the details. And electronic components tend to fail.


----------



## JamesFiiO

shawn71 said:


> Looks like you mis-understood......I'd asked, when(date) are you planning to announce the price for those WHO DID NOT PRE-ORDER?........as you haven't decided yet,now.


 
  
 sorry not decided yet.


----------



## JamesFiiO




----------



## toears

Work in progress !     soldering 200,000 pins.  And then there is just the rest. really interesting to follow.  The devil is indeed in the details.
  
 Hope to have it before december 24th


----------



## Joe Bloggs

*ignorant joke deleted* (you can still see it quoted by Shawn if you want) Sorry!
On another note, nice to see the parts have arrived! :etysmile:


----------



## Shawn71

<deleted>


----------



## Joe Bloggs

Sorry, I am not totally keyed in on the situation :confused_face:

If James really promised you a date when he would decide on the price let me apologize 

It just seemed like such an out-there thing, to not have a price set yet for the unit but to have a date set for deciding on it. It just seemed like something that has to just happen when it happens :confused_face_2:

Really sorry :confused_face_2:


----------



## Shawn71

joe bloggs said:


> Sorry, I am not totally keyed in on the situation
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Not a problem, easy Joe.......I didn't mean you to ask me any sorry. but just shared my views on your comments. that's about it. No offense please. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 We all can understand the pressure James and Co going thru now, as the deadline for e12DIY and X5 is very close and it is right next door.
  
 And no worries, My wallet still take a bite on FiiO Products like in the past and it continues no matter what.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Keep up the Good work.


----------



## Joe Bloggs

Thanks man, I needed a cheer-up right about now


----------



## Nic Rhodes

If I fancy trying a Muse02, is there just one good location for this on the DIY? I.e. i just need a single dual package or are there several potential locations for it?


----------



## ClieOS

nic rhodes said:


> If I fancy trying a Muse02, is there just one good location for this on the DIY? I.e. i just need a single dual package or are there several potential locations for it?


 
  
 What do you mean by location? If you are referring to which socket to put the opamp in, it should fit into the 'OP' socket (check the 1st page). MUSES series only comes in dual channels so you don't have to worry about mounting two single channel on a adapter. If you are asking about where to get one, it would seem eBay is the only place for now.


----------



## TekeRugburn

Hmm.... Thread has been quiet. Shipment is sooo close


----------



## Nic Rhodes

James probably has other things to worry about atm


----------



## Shawn71

For those who are not aware of our James's health, here's the info.....
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/693309/fiio-newsflash-james-latest-firmware-update-cures-cancer-we-hope/45#post_10046967


----------



## hoekeat

http://fiio.net/news/index.aspx?ID=100000133034281&page=1
  
  
 watch out for the delivery boy


----------



## pietcux

Got a mail from Fiio this morning. I opted for the golden one.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

pietcux said:


> Got a mail from Fiio this morning. I opted for the golden one.




Me too...


----------



## RAFA

cosmicholyghost said:


> Me too...




+1


----------



## TekeRugburn

I dunno which one to get the regular limited or the limited limited version.... Lol.


----------



## Reima

tekerugburn said:


> I dunno which one to get the regular limited or the limited limited version.... Lol.


 
 I went for the regular limited.


----------



## balancebox

GOLD is the new sexy


----------



## TekeRugburn

balancebox said:


> GOLD is the new sexy


 
  
 Gold; still the current tacky


----------



## Shawn71

tekerugburn said:


> I dunno which one to get the regular limited or the limited limited version.... Lol.


 

 Man serious, limit your jokes to limited LoL
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





........I have the latest and greatest E12 and in touch with FiiO to get the DIY version as I missed the deadline of pre-order,by edge.


----------



## Joe Bloggs

wrong thread, oops


----------



## duyu

（With the X3)
  
 Obviously, I gotta read the manual first!
 Excellent boxing, and the E12 looks really elegant.


----------



## RAFA

duyu said:


> Obviously, I gotta read the menu first!
> Excellent boxing, and the E12 looks really elegant.




omg! Did fiio tell you, that they have sent it?


----------



## TekeRugburn

duyu said:


> Obviously, I gotta read the manual first!
> Excellent boxing, and the E12 looks really elegant.




Where you Located? I figured theyd give us tracking numbers


----------



## duyu

FiiO's staffs have been shipping the E12 DIY since last Saturday. You shall know your tracking no. very soon.
 Hong Kong is very close to Guangzhou China. And Chris,a nice sales representative, has helped me to ship the package using other means.


----------



## RAFA

duyu said:


> FiiO's staffs have been shipping the E12 DIY since last Saturday. You shall know your tracking no. very soon.
> Hong Kong is very close to [COLOR=03030A]Guangzhou China. And Chris,a nice sales representative, has helped me to ship the package using other means.[/COLOR]




Thats cool. Thanks for the info!

Edit: just got a tracking number. its Dhl


----------



## K.T.

Yes, I got an email from Chris saying that mine had been shipped to the US.
  
 Keep the box in good shape! Who knows? This could become a rare, sought after, limited edition. (Or they might make this a regular production item. Who knows?)
  
 Nice that they made their own box for it.


----------



## TekeRugburn

boo...I haven't gotten a tracking number.


----------



## RAFA

tekerugburn said:


> boo...I haven't gotten a tracking number.




Sooner or later it will come. Mine has not been picked up anyway...


----------



## hoekeat




----------



## lalala6

Just received my golden E12DIY! Thanks FiiO!


----------



## RAFA

Nice one Lalala6. Have you tried it yet?


----------



## lalala6

rafa said:


> Nice one Lalala6. Have you tried it yet?


 
 Yes, with the default AD8620 opamp it sounds cleaner and more neutral than the regular black E12. Haven't tried out other opamps though.


----------



## pietcux

Have the golden one incoming. 

Man that looks tre chique!


----------



## TekeRugburn

who all has gotten a tracking number?


----------



## pietcux

Me, mine left the Hong Kong DHL facility tonight. i am curious about customs arrangement in my country though...


----------



## TekeRugburn

pietcux said:


> Me, mine left the Hong Kong DHL facility tonight. i am curious about customs arrangement in my country though...


 
  man, i want it before Xmas.....


----------



## SoulSyde

Got my tracking number.


----------



## evilhippie

Still waiting on my tracking number as well.  I'm expecting it by the end of the night however, judging by this thread.  I really can't wait to get my hands on this thing... I'm probably gonna be rolling opamps for months.


----------



## TekeRugburn

soulsyde said:


> Got my tracking number.


 
  
 congrats!


----------



## hoekeat

tekerugburn said:


> who all has gotten a tracking number?


 

 got my tracking number on monday and got my unit on wednesday evening. Really appreciate Fiio includes the tool to extract the opamp, save us tons of hassle.
  
 Anyone here have prior experience on opamp rolling? care to comment about the make/build of the included opamp/browndog adapter? I have some extra with my JDS cMoy, and..... mix feelings, really............


----------



## hkfriends

duyu said:


> （With the X3)
> 
> Obviously, I gotta read the manual first!
> Excellent boxing, and the E12 looks really elegant.


 
  
 Great pic... so may I know what is the default OP AMP + BUF installed (pre-installed) ?
  
 I can see those additional OP AMP & BUF chips in the metal box... along with 2 capacitor (what is it for? )
  
 Thanks


----------



## lalala6

hkfriends said:


> Great pic... so may I know what is the default OP AMP + BUF installed (pre-installed) ?
> 
> I can see those additional OP AMP & BUF chips in the metal box... along with 2 capacitor (what is it for? )
> 
> Thanks


 
 The default is AD8620 + BUF634.


----------



## sepinho

tekerugburn said:


> who all has gotten a tracking number?


 

 Still waiting...


----------



## toears

I am not waiting anymore !  But won't open before 24th.. he he

  
 Merry x mas ! 
  
 thank you fiio


----------



## hkfriends

thanks... anyone know what is purpose for those 2 audio capactors?
 can we de-soldering and swap them? or just a backup cap?


----------



## eos5d

I'm happy to receive it today.  This is the second combination I tried beside of the AD797.
  
 MUSE02 + BUF634
  
 The height of the MUSE02 is barely ok but it is touching the metal cover.   I have no comment on the SQ yet because it is to be fair to run it in for a while first.


----------



## pietcux

So where did you get that Muse02 from?


----------



## TekeRugburn

I just want my amp.... so impatient this time of the year


----------



## eos5d

pietcux said:


> So where did you get that Muse02 from?


 

 I got it from an electronic shop at Tokyo, Japan because they are selling the cheapest.   I found Muse02 are selling from some online shop but it is about 50-75% higher price.
 I'm also got a Muse01 but E12 may not have enough power to push.   I need to check the spec. before I put it in to test.


----------



## TekeRugburn

eos5d said:


> I got it from an electronic shop at Tokyo, Japan because they are selling the cheapest.   I found Muse02 are selling from some online shop but it is about 50-75% higher price.
> I'm also got a Muse01 but E12 may not have enough power to push.   I need to check the spec. before I put it in to test.


 
  
 well you need to hook a guy up cuz everywhere i look its ridiculous expensive online


----------



## gikigill

Getting the E12 and happy to participate in a group buy for the MUSES.


----------



## Mansunz

got my Limited "Limited Edition", the new toy is hook up with the X3 & Vsonic GR07. First impression (5 mins of listening), very nice.


----------



## hkfriends

OK guys, I am fully understand the E12DIY, and received it within 24 hrs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  
  
 My secert limited number 
  

  

  

  

  
  
  
 OK, put extra protection at the back (high temperature adhesive to prevent short circuit)

  

  
  
 Finally, my DeoxIT Gold for 3.5mm jack


----------



## duyu

hkfriends said:


>


 
 What is the function of these two/four tiny things?


----------



## hkfriends

duyu said:


> What is the function of these two/four tiny things?


 
  
 I want to know too ??? is that LED ?


----------



## gikigill

They are socket adapters to help ensure different opamps fit the same socket.


----------



## ClieOS

gikigill said:


> They are socket adapters to help ensure different opamps fit the same socket.


 
  
 No, those are resistors. I assume they are for changing the bandwidth or gain.


----------



## hkfriends

Yes it seems they are : SMT resistors marked 1000, ie 100 ohms

OK, after reading in detail from the manual


2 x Audtio Cap is for C7 & C8

Change Amp's Bandwidth
2 x SMT resistors is for R23 & R19

Change Amp's High Gain 
2 x SMT resistors is for R20 & R27


----------



## ClieOS

hkfriends said:


> 2 x Audtio Cap is for C7 & C8


 
  

 Do you mean 'audio' cap? Those are Elna Tonerex cap, marketed for power filtering in audio application.


----------



## pietcux

Got mine today.


----------



## sepinho

Still waiting for shipping confirmation. Might have to do with my last name starting with a "T" though, should FiiO happen to send them out alphabetically.


----------



## K.T.

lalala6 said:


> Yes, with the default AD8620 opamp it sounds cleaner and more neutral than the regular black E12. Haven't tried out other opamps though.


 
  
 Do you know if the default chips in the E12DIY are the same as in the stock black E12?
  
 If so, why would the DIY sound different?
  
 I can't wait to hear about the different chip combinations. I like a quick, articulate, propulsive, refined sound, but I LOVE a fluid, musical, euphonic, emotional, refined sound even more. Wonder what chips will do that?
  
 I think both the silver and gold amps look great. I like the gold a bit more, though. It's got that cheesy bling that reminds me of 1970's Roger Moore era James Bond. It would look right at home next to a purple velvet Crown Royal bag!
  
 I do wish FiiO could have used red lettering and a red anodized knob, though. It would add to costs, of course, but with the gold it would give it that Iron Man look!


----------



## TekeRugburn

anyone from the USA get theirs yet?  Got my tracking number!  yay!


----------



## lalala6

k.t. said:


> Do you know if the default chips in the E12DIY are the same as in the stock black E12?
> 
> If so, why would the DIY sound different?
> 
> ...


 
 Nope, they are different. E12DIY uses AD8620 and BUF634 while E12 uses OPA1611 and LME49600, though they also include both these chips in the package so you can make the E12DIY sound exactly like the E12 if you want to.
  
 I've only tried two possible combinations so far, AD8620 + BUF634 and OPA1611 + BUF634. Currently OPA1611 + BUF634 works very well for me, it has a neutral, articulate and refined sound, albeit less warm than normal E12. Will get around to trying other combinations once I get tired of my current combination, and hopefully find the 'musical, euphonic, emotional, refined' sound that you are describing.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## RAFA

Hey Lala
  
 At the moment I am trying out the combinations too. So far, the LME49600 is by Buffer of choice. I have yet to settle for the right opamp for the output stage.


----------



## pietcux

My Standard E12 took some time to sound right, I wonder if all the combinations needs long burn in or is this more related to other fix mounted components like capacitors? Any ways I think also the DIY needs some time to really shine. I am also a little scared to switch the combinations so far.


----------



## RAFA

pietcux said:


> My Standard E12 took some time to sound right, I wonder if all the combinations needs long burn in or is this more related to other fix mounted components like capacitors? Any ways I think also the DIY needs some time to really shine. I am also a little scared to switch the combinations so far.


 
  
 Out of the box it sounded kind of wrong, but after changing some opamps... it sounds very good with the ATH-ES10 (LME49600 + OPA604 OPA1611). On the other hand it sounds too thin with the TH600.
  
 I do believe the components need some time to settle. So, as you said, it is scary. I never had the possibility for so many combinations. aiaiaiaiii


----------



## lalala6

rafa said:


> Hey Lala
> 
> At the moment I am trying out the combinations too. So far, the LME49600 is by Buffer of choice. I have yet to settle for the right opamp for the output stage.


 
 Cool, I just switched to the LME49600 as well and it seems to be better than BUF634. Right now on OPA1611+LME49600, which happens to be the same combination as the regular E12 but strangely sounds different. Less warmth and bass, more clarity and refinement. Pretty good combination though.


----------



## lalala6

Wow... the OPA604 + LME49600 combo sounds amazing with my AD2000X. I can't believe my ears right now. Nice one you've discovered there, RAFA!
  
  
  
 Edit: Seriously having eargasms at this combo... OPA604+LME49600 is THE musical and euphonic combo for me and I suspect it will have just as good synergy with most Audio-Technicas.


----------



## RAFA

lalala6 said:


> Wow... the OPA604 + LME49600 combo sounds amazing with my AD2000X. I can't believe my ears right now. Nice one you've discovered there, RAFA!
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Seriously having eargasms at this combo... OPA604+LME49600 is THE musical and euphonic combo for me and I suspect it will have just as good synergy with most Audio-Technicas.




True, to me too. For the moment it is very nice. I have some LME49990 at home, but not in dip8 form. I really would like to try them.

Also investing into the muses02 is crawling through my head.


----------



## duyu

Could some of you take some photos showing how you DIY this E12? Say, changing the ICs, soldering chips, changing capacitors, adding resistors, etc.  
  
 It would be very helpful for beginners like me.
 Many thanks!


----------



## Chefano

Did not receive any tracking info yet.
 =/


----------



## TekeRugburn

duyu said:


> Could some of you take some photos showing how you DIY this E12? Say, changing the ICs, soldering chips, changing capacitors, adding resistors, etc.
> 
> It would be very helpful for beginners like me.
> Many thanks!


 
  
 you dont need to solder anything.  It's just a plug and play.  There should be directions in the manual


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

duyu said:


> Could some of you take some photos showing how you DIY this E12? Say, changing the ICs, soldering chips, changing capacitors, adding resistors, etc.
> 
> It would be very helpful for beginners like me.
> Many thanks!


 
 Hi I have received below screenshot from friendly Fiio customer service,  I hope it can be useful for you too.
  


> In the accessories of E12 DIY, there are some adapter PCB (already has the chip on it) and other blank adapter PCB. . From the the picture as attached, there are 2 chip sockets for the Buffer section and one chip socket for OP-AMP section. You can exchange the adapter PCB directly,and please just make sure that the placed direction is correct, and distinguish Buffer and OP-AMP chip.
> 
> Regarding to other blank adapter PCB, if you have any other OP or BUF chip,then you can use the soldering iron to fix your chips on the blank adapter PCB.
> 
> The blinking blue light means that there is the direct-current output which causes the protection for the inner circuit, so the E12 will be turned off automatically. Therefore, it's highly suggested to check the Buffer and OP-AMP in your E12 DIY carefully. Please confirm whether the Buffer or OP-AMP is placed in the right place.


----------



## ClieOS

duyu said:


> Could some of you take some photos showing how you DIY this E12? Say, changing the ICs, soldering chips, changing capacitors, adding resistors, etc.
> 
> It would be very helpful for beginners like me.
> Many thanks!


 
  
 Changing capacitor and resistor both require soldering skill, so don't mess with them before you know how to solder, especially on SMD.


----------



## hkfriends

yes


----------



## SoulSyde

I decided to sell mine on a well-known classified website, without opening it so I wouldn't take a hit on the re-sale.  I'm sure the E12DIY is a great amp but I purchased the HiFi-M8 while I was waiting for the E12DIY.  The M8 does everything I want in a portable and I don't see a real need for the DIY anymore.
  
 Cheers to everyone who got theirs and good luck to those who are still waiting.


----------



## lalala6

I think I may have found the best opamp+buf combination for E12DIY: OPA604 + LMH6321. It's very musical, engaging, and detailed without ever sounding harsh. Vocals gets pushed a little forward and everything just sounds so balanced and clear. Quite possibly my most favorite combination. YMMV depending on the headphones you're using with it.
  
 IMO the E12DIY with the right opamp+buf combination is a significant improvement over the regular E12. It's very worth the price and I am liking it more and more each day!
  
  
 Curious about the MUSES02 opamp, anyone knows where to purchase it online?


----------



## duyu

No idea how to use that removal tool...
 I just used my fingernail to remove the chips.
 Now trying diff op-amps with BUF 634.


----------



## K.T.

lalala6 said:


> I think I may have found the best opamp+buf combination for E12DIY: OPA604 + LMH6321. It's very musical, engaging, and detailed without ever sounding harsh. Vocals gets pushed a little forward and everything just sounds so balanced and clear. Quite possibly my most favorite combination. YMMV depending on the headphones you're using with it.




Thanks for sharing! Sounds right up my alley. I'll give it a try!

I put the OPA604 in an Adcom GFP-565 stereo preamp some years ago and thought it sounded too dark and closed in. But this is a different application. I was curious about how this chip would perform when I found it was included with the set. Glad to hear it's working out!


----------



## pietcux

I decided to give the amp a good burn in time before switching between the different oamps and buffs. This is because for me the standard E12 sounded horrible at times before it really settled to a very good sound signature.


----------



## duyu

Just tried to switch the buffer. Unexpectedly, it was more difficult than changing Op-amps since the buffer was located at the edge of the board. I now see why the removal tool is necessary.
  
 My impression was that the pair of AD797+BUF634 has a better sound stage and warmer than both AD797+LME49600 and BUF634+AD604. 
 This sound signature suits more with my Q701, and I'm now enjoying AD797+BUF634.
  
 Pairs tried:
 BUF634+AD8620 (original set-up)
 BUF634+AD797
 BUF634+AD604
 LME49600+AD797 
  
 What are you guys' impressions about different pairs?


----------



## magisterarus

Hi everyone. 
 Could someone kindly post some pictures of these blank PCB included for use (by soldering) op-amps different than those already supplied?
 I haven't found anyone in my package!


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

I have that same question also


----------



## duyu

They are inside the metal box, under the foam.


----------



## magisterarus

Thank you very much!
 it seems that they are fun to hide them! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 It would be enough to report the location in the instruction manual attached.


----------



## pietcux

Easteregs anyone? ???


----------



## RAFA

duyu said:


> They are inside the metal box, under the foam.


 
  
 WOW, I really gave up on them. Also I did not expect to see so many of these boards. Thanks FIIO and duyu. Without you, I would not even think to look under the foam.


----------



## TekeRugburn

Now, do I want to buy a muses01


----------



## ClieOS

My E12DIY should come in on the 26th. I have some MUSE01 and MUSE02 around and I can give you some impression if you are interested.


----------



## TekeRugburn

clieos said:


> My E12DIY should come in on the 26th. I have some MUSE01 and MUSE02 around and I can give you some impression if you are interested.




Yes please, I'd really appreciate it. I also want to try opa627


----------



## nihontoman

clieos said:


> My E12DIY should come in on the 26th. I have some MUSE01 and MUSE02 around and I can give you some impression if you are interested.


 

 Sorry for ignorance, but what kind of output power do the MUSE amps have compared to the ones provided by fiio?


----------



## Wolven777

James - are these still available to order? I am interested...


----------



## TekeRugburn

wolven777 said:


> James - are these still available to order? I am interested...




Nope


----------



## gikigill

You will be able to buy them externally.


----------



## ClieOS

tekerugburn said:


> Yes please, I'd really appreciate it. I also want to try opa627


 
  
 You will need to get the SO8 package and mount 2 onto the adapter yourself as OPA627 is single channel and the DIP8 package just won't fit.
  


nihontoman said:


> Sorry for ignorance, but what kind of output power do the MUSE amps have compared to the ones provided by fiio?


 
  
 The overall output power is determined by gain (voltage) and current. Since gain is set by the gain switch while the current is handled by the buffer, changing opamp will not affect the output power by much. You don't really need more power anyway as E12DIY should be able to drive over 90% of all the headphone out there except for those that are known to be really difficult-to-drive. So why change the opamp, you might ask? Well, opamp are not all created equally. Some are just better sounding than the others, such as those included by FiiO. MUSES are probably among the best of the best. But MUSES series also cost about US$40~50 each (and sometime more) so they are not included


----------



## Chefano

clieos said:


> My E12DIY should come in on the 26th. I have some MUSE01 and MUSE02 around and I can give you some impression if you are interested.


 
  


tekerugburn said:


> Yes please, I'd really appreciate it. I also want to try opa627


 
 Im totally interested.
 Can you kindly test the Muses and the opa627?
  
 Regards


----------



## K.T.

k.t. said:


> Thanks for sharing! Sounds right up my alley. I'll give it a try!
> 
> I put the OPA604 in an Adcom GFP-565 stereo preamp some years ago and thought it sounded too dark and closed in. But this is a different application. I was curious about how this chip would perform when I found it was included with the set. Glad to hear it's working out!




My bad. The chip I tried in the GFP-565 was the OPA627, not the OPA604. It was a number of years ago, so the details blur. The original op amp in the 565 were LT1056. The output buffer is the LT1010CT.

The Adcom GFP-565 is a full sized stereo preamp, but it's conceptually the same as the E12 portable headphone amp: a high quality audio op amp with a buffer behind it. In the case of the GFP-565, however, the stationary nature of it allowed for the use of a beefy power supply and beefy voltage regulators for the chips and buffers. The buffers were also high current and biased into class A. The E12 does not have volatage regulation, as far as I know (I could be wrong).

When I was researching chips for upgrading the preamp, I did consider the OPA604. From what I recall, it was a well regarded op amp, but was not considered the best sounding chip one could get in absolute terms. 

There was some debate about the OPA627. It was considered among the elite of op amps, but opinions were split. Some thought it was supremely musical, others thought it was dark and murky with no treble. 

Curious, I gutted the stock chips from the 565, installed sockets, and inserted the OPA627. I hoped for the best, but the sound was thick and dark with no real air to it. Not so great.

Of course, I didn't have time to optimize the circuit for the OPA627. There was some talk about how this chip needs a lot more decoupling capacitance than is suggested in the application sheet, otherwise it would, indeed, sound way too dark. I just didn't have time to explore this.

So I'm curious, now, to hear that the OPA604 sounds great in the E12. That may totally be the case, as this application may be well suited to the chip. I'm also very interested in how the OPA627 will fare.

For those interested, here is some good reading on how various chips perform in headphone amps:

http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamps.html

According to this write up, some chips of note are the: OPA627, AD843, and the AD8610/AD8620


----------



## lalala6

k.t. said:


>


 
 Thanks for the info! Interesting read.
  
 After spending more time with the OPA604, I admit that it does have a warm flavor to it, but nothing dark and murky. Having tried all of the opamps, I now believe the AD8620 and OPA1611 are technically better than OPA604. It's just that the OPA604 happens to have so much synergy with one of my headphones which led to my gushing about it in my previous posts. After experimenting opamps with more headphones and IEMs, it seems that AD8620 and OPA1611 both will work better than OPA604 for most headphones/IEMs out there, with a more neutral/less warm sound and more detail. So unless your headphone has a magical synergy with OPA604, AD8620 or OPA1611 will sound better to most.
  
 Currently it's a tie between AD8620 and OPA1611, both are so similar that I'm hard pressed to pick out which is better...


----------



## duyu

How about AD797? I've found it so good. Will try 1611 very soon.


----------



## hkfriends

finally my MUSES02 arrived

 a little tight to close the metal case........
  
 but the sound superb


----------



## K.T.

hkfriends said:


> finaly my MUSES02 arrived
> 
> 
> a little tight to close the metal case........
> ...




Please let us know how it compares to the AD8620 and OPA1611. Very curious!


----------



## hkfriends

oh, it is very dynamics, stronger feeling, i just replace this op amp (keep buffer 634) and already feeling unbeatable.....

btw, i need to milling down the inner portion of the metal case tonight. it is too tight and it hit the IC


----------



## lalala6

duyu said:


> How about AD797? I've found it so good. Will try 1611 very soon.




AD797 is warm and dark sounding to me. It ranks the lowest out of the 4 opamps in my book, but don't get me wrong it is still pretty good.


----------



## lalala6

hkfriends said:


> finaly my MUSES02 arrived
> 
> 
> a little tight to close the metal case........
> ...



Nice! May I know where did you buy the muses02?


----------



## hkfriends

lalala6 said:


> Nice! May I know where did you buy the muses02?




I ordered them from China (taobao, who has a better credit, I believe some are selling fake products)


----------



## Chefano

hkfriends said:


> I ordered them from China (taobao, who has a better credit, I believe some are selling fake products)


 
 Can you kindly tell us what seller did you bought from?
  
 regards


----------



## TekeRugburn

if you're in the usa....get it from mouser.  they got it not too long ago.  guaranteed to be legit.


----------



## Chefano

tekerugburn said:


> if you're in the usa....get it from mouser.  they got it not too long ago.  guaranteed to be legit.


 
 Great! Thanks for the help.
  
 Im about to buy a pair of OPA627SM and  a pair of LME49710HA as well, do you think the TO99 + adapter will fit inside the E12DIY?


----------



## K.T.

2 pieces of Muses 2 with sockets for $134 including shipping from Amazon. Yikes!

http://www.amazon.com/MUSES02-Quality-Bipolar-Operational-Amplifier/dp/B00B08AYIE

Is it cheaper at Mouser?


----------



## ClieOS

chefano said:


> Great! Thanks for the help.
> 
> Im about to buy a pair of OPA627SM and  a pair of LME49710HA as well, *do you think the TO99 + adapter will fit inside the E12DIY*?


 
  
 That will be a big NO.
  
 As mentioned by a couple of guys before, even DIP8 has clearance issue on the E12DIY. You'll want to stick to SO8 + stock adapter as much as possible.


----------



## hkfriends

chefano said:


> Can you kindly tell us what seller did you bought from?
> 
> regards




http://a.m.taobao.com/i13967405278.htm?ttid=212200@taobao_android_3.9.5

nice shop keeper, and he is selling a lot of good audio IC


----------



## hoekeat

how many pcs of Muses ic do we need? how common is fake muses IC? i see from taobao, the price ranges from 65yuan to 200yuan.


----------



## Chefano

hkfriends said:


> http://a.m.taobao.com/i13967405278.htm?ttid=212200@taobao_android_3.9.5
> 
> nice shop keeper, and he is selling a lot of good audio IC


 
 Thats nice! To bad my Chinese sux lol.. and I don't have a clue how to buy =D


----------



## Chefano

hoekeat said:


> how many pcs of Muses ic do we need? how common is fake muses IC? i see from taobao, the price ranges from 65yuan to 200yuan.


 
 We need only one chip. Muses are dual channel op-amps.


----------



## earfonia

Prices of Muses Op-Amps from Mouser Singapore (prices are in Singapore $, to convert to US$, divide by 1.3)
  

  
 Muses01 is with J-FET input, Muses02 is with Bipolar input.  Usually Bipolar input is not easy, high DC offset.
 Is Muses02 stable in E12DIY?  Any measurement of DC offset on the output?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## earfonia

hkfriends said:


> http://a.m.taobao.com/i13967405278.htm?ttid=212200@taobao_android_3.9.5
> 
> nice shop keeper, and he is selling a lot of good audio IC


 
  
 Thanks a lot for the link! I asked my friend who has Taobao account to buy for me


----------



## ClieOS

earfonia said:


> Muses01 is with J-FET input, Muses02 is with Bipolar input.  Usually Bipolar input is not easy, high DC offset.
> Is Muses02 stable in E12DIY?  Any measurement of DC offset on the output?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 E12DIY is designed to work with bipolar opamp though (i.e. OPA1611). I'll give it a measure when I received mine.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> E12DIY is designed to work with bipolar opamp though (i.e. OPA1611). I'll give it a measure when I received mine.


 
  
 Right!  That's cool!
 I have mine for a few days now, still listening the default setup AD8620 with BUF634 and trying to get familiar with the sound signature... a bit dark for my taste, which is strange, AD8620 in my previous experience was a bit bright and lively   I only tested with Fiio X3 so far, maybe what I hear was the dark signature of X3, will try more with other DACs.
  
 Will try Op-Amp rolling once I have time and post my impression.
  
 Now ordering Muses01 and Muses02 from Taobao


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

I am also ordering MUSE01/02 opamp.... but while waiting, I have to say that this is a pretty good sounding portable amp currently using the stock OPA1611... I am using the good line out from DX50... Listening to this stack makes me wonder if Fiio X5 or ZX-1 alone can compete in SQ....
  
  
 For people in HKG, labkable carries MUSE opamp, if you order 2 units, it is 350hkd each...


----------



## Chefano

Well,
 I need some help to use taobao, but I still have some reservations about it. Any volunteers? =D


----------



## earfonia

I played around with my Velleman Digital Oscilloscope to measure the noise and maximum output voltage of the headphone output of Fiio E12DIY as well as other sources I have on my desk.  The Fiio E12DIY Op-Amp and Buffer combination during the test were AD8620 and LME49600.
  
 Maximum output voltage of the headphone output in VAC RMS:
 Fiio E12DIY Low Gain: 2.23
 Fiio E12DIY High Gain: 7.11
 Yulong DA8: 6.75
 Violectric HPA V200: 11.74 (measured with Amprobe AM-160 multimeter, as this level is higher than the maximum limit of the digital oscilloscope)
 Mytek 192-DSD: 10.00 (measured with Amprobe AM-160 multimeter, as this level is higher than the maximum limit of the digital oscilloscope)
  
 As for noise, what shown on the oscilloscope sometime not really correspond with what I heard through IEM.  In this test I use JVC HA-FXD80 for IEM
 (which died during the test due to an accident. I forgot that the Mytek was playing 100 Hz tone at full volume when I plugged my favorite IEM on the headphone output... stupid me... very sad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  now I have to use my second pair of JVC HA-FXD80)
  
 All at maximum volume level, from what I heard using IEM, sorted from the lowest noise to the highest noise when playing silent track:
 Fiio E12DIY @ Low Gain
 Yulong DA8
 Violectric HPA V200
 Mytek 192-DSD using Digital volume control
 Fiio E12DIY @ High Gain
 Mytek 192-DSD using Analog volume control
  
 The first four in the list, noise level are pretty close.  Fiio E12DIY at lowest gain produce the lowest noise I could hear.  Yulong DA8 headphone output, and Violectric HPA V200 connected to Yulong DA8 through balance connection, produce soft noise at maximum volume level.  Considering Violectric HPA V200 output has the highest output voltage, this is amazing how Violectric HPA V200 can achieve such low noise level at that high amplification (0 dB gain adjustment).
 Mytek 192-DSD headphone output with the analog volume control is the noisiest, like about 12 dB louder compared when using digital volume control.  Using digital volume control, the noise is about the same as the Violectric HPA V200.
  
 Somehow I don't know how to see the level of noise using the what shown on the oscilloscope.  For example comparing the Mytek output noise, between analog volume control and digital volume control.  They have about the same 1.5 mVAC rms (analog volume slightly higher), and while the digital volume control has higher DC offset, what I hear from the IEM, the analog volume was much noisier than the digital volume control.
 Maybe someone knows how to interpret the oscilloscope measurement in relation to the noise level heard from the IEM?
  
 Below are screen captures of the oscilloscope, while playing a silent track, and at maximum volume level.
 The DC offset of Mytek 192-DSD headphone output is pretty high, but still safe for most IEMs and Headphones.
  
 Fiio E12DIY @ Low Gain:

  
 Fiio E12DIY @ High Gain:

  
 Yulong DA8 Headphone Output:

  
 Violectric HPA V200 headphone output, 0 dB gain adjustment, connected to Yulong DA8 through balance connection:

  
 Mytek 192-DSD headphone output with analog volume control:

  
 Mytek 192-DSD headphone output with digital volume control:


----------



## ClieOS

Here is my report (so far): the DC offset on MUSES02 is pretty low, measured around 0.3mV/1.2mV at low gain or 3.6mV/13mV at high gain. Both are fairly acceptable in my book. On the stock AD8620, DC offset is near perfect with 0mV at low gain and less than 1mV at high gain.
  
 Also confirm others' finding that *DIP8 will not fit into the case without modding*. Those of you who are thinking about MUSES01/02 should really hold your horses and think this through before spending big bucks on opamp that you can't fit onto housing. To have DIP8 opamp fit into the housing, you will need to grind away about 1mm deep slot (as wide as the opamp and about 2~3cm in) inside the case so the opamp can slide in. You can force the DIP8 opamp in but I reckon you will probably break something at some point since there will be a lot of stress on the PCB. I can also confirm that BrownDog adapter (for dual channel opamp only, not 2x mono) will work on E12DIY because it has a low profile.
  
 Anyway, I haven't had the time to listen it yet and will report back about the sound of the MUSES series. However, unless you have a small grinder ready to do whatever it takes to have the MUSES installed inside the E12DIY, I'll really suggest you just give up on using the MUSES series in it.


----------



## TekeRugburn

clieos said:


> Here is my report (so far): the DC offset on MUSES02 is pretty low, measured around 0.3mV/1.2mV at low gain or 3.6mV/13mV at high gain. Both are fairly acceptable in my book. On the stock AD8620, DC offset is near perfect with 0mV at low gain and less than 1mV at high gain.
> 
> Also confirm others' finding that *DIP8 will not fit into the case without modding*. Those of you who are thinking about MUSES01/02 should really hold your horses and think this through before spending big bucks on opamp that you can't fit onto housing. To have DIP8 opamp fit into the housing, you will need to grind away about 1mm deep slot (as wide as the opamp and about 2~3cm in) inside the case so the opamp can slide in. You can force the DIP8 opamp in but I reckon you will probably break something at some point since there will be a lot of stress on the PCB. I can also confirm that BrownDog adapter (for dual channel opamp only, not 2x mono) will work on E12DIY because it has a low profile.
> 
> Anyway, I haven't had the time to listen it yet and will report back about the sound of the MUSES series. However, unless you have a small grinder ready to do whatever it takes to have the MUSES installed inside the E12DIY, I'll really suggest you just give up on using the MUSES series in it.


 
  
 I have a dremel tool so I'm not too worried about it fitting.  I'm fairly decent at soldering never smd or the sort.  Let's see how this goes lol.


----------



## K.T.

This is getting into some nice DIY territory. I'm sure some of us won't blink an eye at pulling out the tools and doing whatever it takes.

One other option is testing out the Muses with the cover off. If one falls in love with the sound, one could desolder the socket and hardwire the Muses chip into the amp. I'm thinking the chip would fit in the stock case without the extra height of the socket. That's just a thought. I haven't actually looked inside the amp to see if it's doable.

Of course, if one were to go that route, one would be wedded to the Muses chip and the amp would no longer be a test platform for any other op amps. Only for the buffers.

So 2 low profile soic OPA627s on a BrownDog adapter won't fit? Still too thick? I'm curious if the OPA627 sounds good in this application.

Is there a difference in sound between Muses 1 and Muses 2, btw? Not a whole lot of English language discussion that I could find comparing the two.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

MUSES wont fit 

Any other recommendation of Opamp?


----------



## TekeRugburn

k.t. said:


> This is getting into some nice DIY territory. I'm sure some of us won't blink an eye at pulling out the tools and doing whatever it takes.
> 
> One other option is testing out the Muses with the cover off. If one falls in love with the sound, one could desolder the socket and hardwire the Muses chip into the amp. I'm thinking the chip would fit in the stock case without the extra height of the socket. That's just a thought. I haven't actually looked inside the amp to see if it's doable.
> 
> ...


 
  
 well it is called E12*DIY*


----------



## earfonia

I'm not sure if Muses Op-Amp is thicker than other regular DIP-8.  On my case, I tried a few DIP-8 Op-Amp, OPA2134, OPA2604, and OP275, all touches the aluminium case, but not over it, so I can slot the board in without any stress, just nice fit.  Also tried AD8066 on DIY SOIC to DIP, still has some space as shown in the picture.  Maybe our aluminium cases differ slightly?  Lucky me, I can tried any DIP-8 without having to DIY the case 
  
 Stock AD8620:


  
 AD8066 on DIY SOIC to DIP:


  
 Regular DIP-8, OPA2134, OPA2604, & OP275:


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> Here is my report (so far): the DC offset on MUSES02 is pretty low, measured around 0.3mV/1.2mV at low gain or 3.6mV/13mV at high gain. Both are fairly acceptable in my book. On the stock AD8620, DC offset is near perfect with 0mV at low gain and less than 1mV at high gain.


 
  
 Excellent, thank you!
 That 0.3mV/1.2mV at low gain is for left and right channels right?


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> So 2 low profile soic OPA627s on a BrownDog adapter won't fit? Still too thick? I'm curious if the OPA627 sounds good in this application.
> 
> Is there a difference in sound between Muses 1 and Muses 2, btw? Not a whole lot of English language discussion that I could find comparing the two.


 
  
 Yep. Two SOIC on both side of the adapter will be way too thick. It has to be side-by-side like the FiiO adapter to work.
  
 I haven't tested MUSES01/02 on E12DIY yet, but I have used both on other places. They are definitely not alike, and generally speaking in circuit where both can be used, MUSES01 almost always sound better.
  


earfonia said:


> Excellent, thank you!
> That 0.3mV/1.2mV at low gain is for left and right channels right?


 
  
 Yes, left/right channel.


----------



## Shiikamaru

would like to ask. i have just received my e12diy. the metal box came with a lot of pcb. i have taken out those listed on the last page of the instructions and i am left like 8 pcbs without anything on it. would like to know whats it for? and im having a hard time pushing the body out of the casing. theres like grinding noise when im pushing it in and out. is that normal?


----------



## ClieOS

shiikamaru said:


> would like to ask. i have just received my e12diy. the metal box came with a lot of pcb. i have taken out those listed on the last page of the instructions and i am left like 8 pcbs without anything on it. would like to know whats it for? and im having a hard time pushing the body out of the casing. theres like grinding noise when im pushing it in and out. is that normal?


 
  
 The blank PCB are for those who wanted to try other opamp / buffer.
  
 There is some sticker inside. You don't need to push the whole PCB out. As long as you have good access to the opamp and buffer section, you are okay.


----------



## K.T.

OK, it is good to see that DIP package MAY be able to fit into the case. That bodes well for the Muses.

The clearance in the picture is very small, so I wonder if it comes down to manufacturing tolerances from amp to amp? Maybe some will allow the DIP to slide in and others will not? 

We are talking about like a millimeter difference, here. Something like how closely the socket was pressed to the board before it was soldered may make all the difference.

I for one am still very curious about the Muses. If they really sing more sweetly than the others, I will have no trouble breaking out my Dremel to grind out some clearance.

Incidentally, if the Muses 1 trumps the Muses 2, why does the 2 exist, and in what instances would you use it over the 1?


----------



## ClieOS

In the spirit of DIY, I took the time to sand down the case so it will accommodate a DIP8 packaged opamp better.
  




  
 I used some masking tape just to mark the area that needed to grind down. You will have to go about as deep as the microUSB opening, around 23mm or so.
  




  
 I took out roughly 1mm or so in material, basically half-ing the overall thickness.
  





 
  
 Now the DIP8 opamp sitting flush inside the case without bending the PCB or applying any stress.


----------



## earfonia

k.t. said:


> Incidentally, if the Muses 1 trumps the Muses 2, why does the 2 exist, and in what instances would you use it over the 1?


 
  
 Same curiosity here... now waiting patiently till my Muses01 and Muses02 arrive from Hong Kong.  My friend helped me to order them from Taobao yesterday, hopefully will arrive next week.  Hong Kong to Singapore won't take long to ship.  I will share the impression of the two Muses once I have enough time with them.
  
 Meanwhile maybe ClieOS and hkfriends can share some light as they have the Muses


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> Incidentally, if the Muses 1 trumps the Muses 2, why does the 2 exist, and in what instances would you use it over the 1?


 
  
 You'll use the MUSES02 (min. +/-3.5V) when your amp can't meet the MUSES01's min. +/-9V requirement. Think of it as the next best thing and more oriented for portable / lesser power consumption  use.. While as good as MUSES02 is, I do find it on some occasion not as good as other opamp. But I never find MUSES01 getting outperformed in any situation.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> You'll use the MUSES02 (min. +/-3.5V) when your amp can't meet the MUSES01's min. +/-9V requirement. Think of it as the next best thing and more oriented for portable / lesser power consumption  use.. While as good as MUSES02 is, I do find it on some occasion not as good as other opamp. But I never find MUSES01 getting outperformed in any situation.


 
  
 Thanks for the explanation!
 You have Muses01 as well right? Since FiioE12DIY supply voltage is +/- 11 volt, Muses01 will work in E12DIY right?
 Have you tried?  Maybe with casing open if you cannot slot in the board


----------



## lalala6

Ordered the MUSES02 and will have it very soon, can't wait to compare it against AD8620/OPA1611.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

Thanks ClieOs for the suggestion...
 I cannot believe I am now grinding this beautiful gold casing...


----------



## TekeRugburn

I wanna know why people are opting for the muses02 over the muses01.


----------



## ClieOS

Here are my impression over a few opamps in the E12DIY. I stuck to BUF637 this time and will look into LME49600 some other time.
  
 AD8620 - good detail, almost edgy, a little flat on soundstage and lean on lower end texture
 MUSES01 - near perfect balance. ultra smooth and full sounding with lots of texture
 MUSES02 - Better depth than muses01, more layback with a little less texture
 MUSES8820 - similar to MUSES01, but scaled down and not nearly as grand
 MUSES8920 - similar to MUSES02, but similarly scaled down like 8820
 LME49720HA - very clean and clear with good air and soundstage
 OPA2107 - a little mid centric, nothing remarkable
 LM4562 - similar to LME49720, even cleaner and leaner, very O2 like.
 OPA2209 - a little veil on the mid and lacking detail
 AD8066 - great micro-detail and decent soundstage, but otherwise unremarkable
 AD797 x2 - neutral but edgy, like AD8620 with better depth
 OPA1611 x2 - laidback, if not a little dark
 OPA604 x2 - almost like opa1611, rather smooth.
  
 So far none of the stock opamp really wow me. Beside MUSES01/02 which I have expected to be pretty good sounding, the only other opamps that really surprised me are the LME49720HA / LM4562 (*they are said to be the same internally), LM4562 in particular is very transparent and clean, giving a similar presentation as O2. It will serve as a great choice for those who are looking for wire-with-gain / colorless style of amplification. MUSES01 and 02 more or less about the same level. 01 has the advantage of having a great balance between detail and texture, while 02 has the advantage of having better layer and soundstage. I'll say 01 is a bit more musical while 02 is a bit more neutral in comparison to each others. Though by themselves, I won't say any one of them is really on the musical or neutral side. They are all fairly well balanced. The opomp I really won't recommend are OPA2209 (or OPA209) and OPA2107. The rest are just unremarkable one way or another.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

@ClieOS
  
 Nice impression. May I know the source and iem you use for this opamp shoot out?  I find OPA1611 to be bright.... instead of dark... I tested with Fidelio X1, Heir 5.0, X3 as source
  
 Currently using DX50 as source and MUSE01 ,I totally agree with you about the texture, it is really impressive


----------



## ClieOS

The source are X3 (mostly) and DX50 (less). OPA1611 has some graininess on the top, so maybe that's what you are referring to? Brightness implies detail and edge to me, while graininess is just graininess, like roughness without the sharp edge, if that makes sense.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

clieos said:


> The source are X3 (mostly) and DX50 (less). OPA1611 has some graininess on the top, so maybe that's what you are referring to? Brightness implies detail and edge to me, while graininess is just graininess, like roughness without the sharp edge, if that makes sense.


 
 Thanks, ClieOS. It makes sense.


----------



## TekeRugburn

clieos said:


> Here are my impression over a few opamps in the E12DIY. I stuck to BUF637 this time and will look into LME49600 some other time.
> 
> AD8620 - good detail, almost edgy, a little flat on soundstage and lean on lower end texture
> MUSES01 - near perfect balance. ultra smooth and full sounding with lots of texture
> ...


 
  
 Did you mean LME49720*N*A?  
  
 The NA is a dip8 while the HA is a round through hole.  Did you have the HA on an adapter?
  
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LME49720HA-NOPB/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvu8NZDyZ4K0dBP1sTbZkXM
  
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=7lkVKPoqpbYtIqwyg5iDaA%3d%3d


----------



## ClieOS

I do mean LME49720HA (TO-99). Of course, I have it on a DIP-8 adapter and the case is opened.


----------



## TekeRugburn

clieos said:


> I do mean LME49720HA (TO-99). Of course, I have it on a DIP-8 adapter and the case is opened.


 
  
 i wonder how different the HA and NA are...if any


----------



## ClieOS

I have the NA version as well, but they are in my other amp and I don't want to dismount them. I did a side-by-side A/Bing before and they do sound the same to me.


----------



## TekeRugburn

clieos said:


> I have the NA version as well, but they are in my other amp and I don't want to dismount them. I did a side-by-side A/Bing before and they do sound the same to me.


 
  
 Thanks for the input.  
  
 I rather not have to hassle with soldering if I can avoid it


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> Here are my impression over a few opamps in the E12DIY. I stuck to BUF637 this time and will look into LME49600 some other time.
> 
> AD8620 - good detail, almost edgy, a little flat on soundstage and lean on lower end texture
> MUSES01 - near perfect balance. ultra smooth and full sounding with lots of texture
> ...


 
  
 Thank you!  I bet you spent whole day rolling op-amps 
 Beside the source, X3 and DX50, what IEM you used for the test?
  
 I ever tried OPA2209 on my Dr. DAC2 DX, and I was impressed by how clean and detail was the sound signature, it was very good.  So my past impression of OPA2209 is contrary with your's on E12DIY.  Maybe the matching with the buffer makes the difference.  I will test OPA2209 later with E12DIY.


----------



## ClieOS

earfonia said:


> Thank you!  I bet you spent whole day rolling op-amps
> Beside the source, X3 and DX50, what IEM you used for the test?


 
  
 RE0


----------



## hkfriends

clieos said:


> In the spirit of DIY, I took the time to sand down the case so it will accommodate a DIP8 packaged opamp better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




me too, i sand down the case inside


----------



## ClieOS

After spending some time with the E12DIY, I have to say I am very impressed. This is definitely among the best portable amp I have heard (i.e. StepDance, O2, Panda amp-S...etc). The stock AD8620 doesn't fully show just how good it is, but once you put in a worthy opamp, it really does push to the limit.


----------



## hoekeat

ClieOS , which worthy opamp r u referring to? u still have jdslabs cMoyBB to compare to?


----------



## ClieOS

These.
  
 JDS cmoyBB is not even near the same league. JDS C5 is probably a better contender but with the right opamp, I'll say E12DIY sounds better to me.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> After spending some time with the E12DIY, I have to say I am very impressed. This is definitely among the best portable amp I have heard (i.e. StepDance, O2, Panda amp-S...etc). The stock AD8620 doesn't fully show just how good it is, but once you put in a worthy opamp, it really does push to the limit.


 
  
 Which buffer sounds best to you?  Or maybe best with the Muses or LME49720HA / LM4562.
  
 Currently I have 2 units of E12DIY, one belong to my brother, with stock AD8620 and BUF634, and mine with AD8620 with LME49600.
 I tested them with Dragonfly DAC as source, and DT880 Pro 600 ohm.
  
 BUF634 and LME49600 to me both sound very2 close, I couldn't hear differences in tonal balance between the two, at least they are both seem quite transparent in E12DIY.
 Differences only heard in complex music or passages, where LME49600 seems to be better in detail and separation, overall a bit cleaner and more transparent, but only a little better, not much.  Both buffers perform very2 well, with very little sonic differences.
 But if I have to choose, it seems LME49600 sounds a bit better to me.  This is with DT880 Pro 600 ohm, E12DIY set at high gain. 
 I will try with more headphones and earphones later.
  
 Does anyone know if the high bandwidth pin for both BUF634 and LME49600 is used in E12DIY ?
  
 Haven't tried LMH6321.


----------



## TekeRugburn

earfonia said:


> Which buffer sounds best to you?  Or maybe best with the Muses or LME49720HA / LM4562.
> 
> Currently I have 2 units of E12DIY, one belong to my brother, with stock AD8620 and BUF634, and mine with AD8620 with LME49600.
> I tested them with Dragonfly DAC as source, and DT880 Pro 600 ohm.
> ...


 
 I like the LME also.  Ordering some op-amps tonight


----------



## ClieOS

I haven't tried the LME49600 and LMH6321 yet. I have plan for trying out a few more opamps first before I move on to trying out the opamp-buffer combo.


----------



## toears

A new muses02 for $18.40.- a piece. Is that a 'too good to be true' price ?
 are there different kinds of muses01 and 02, from New JRC ?
  
 If only one version exist, what exatly is printed on it ?


----------



## doki81

erm..just receive my e12diy..would like to know which combi i should try first ...the stock config cant impress me yet


----------



## ClieOS

toears said:


> A new muses02 for $18.40.- a piece. Is that a 'too good to be true' price ?
> are there different kinds of muses01 and 02, from New JRC ?
> 
> If only one version exist, what exatly is printed on it ?


 
  
 Yeah, that does sound too good to be true. Even at cost, a MUSES02 should sell over $30.
  
 MUSES01 and 02 look mostly the same. You have the MUSES logo, the '01' or '02' marking, as well as the 3 digit batch number. There is no other type of marking AFAIK.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

I purchased my MUSES for 45USD each from a reliable seller in Hong Kong who specialized in high end audiophile parts.


----------



## doki81

cosmicholyghost said:


> I purchased my MUSES for 45USD each from a reliable seller in Hong Kong who specialized in high end audiophile parts.


 
 can to share the link?


----------



## earfonia

doki81 said:


> erm..just receive my e12diy..would like to know which combi i should try first ...the stock config cant impress me yet


 
  
 Try all, we are also still trying, mixing and matching 
 True, stock config is not really impressive, and ClieOS mentioned, AD8620 is not the best op-amp to reveal the sound quality of E12DIY, which I agree.
 Maybe AD797 sounds better, but I haven't tried yet.
 You may want to check ClieOS impression on the op-amps here.


----------



## earfonia

My Muses just arrived 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Ordered last Thursday from the recommended Hong Kong shop by hkfriends, delivered today.... quite fast, delivered in 4 days.
 Hope will have time tonight to test them


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

doki81 said:


> can to share the link?


 
 Hi, there is a taobao link posted earlier on.
  
 In Hong Kong, you can try:
  
 http://labkable.com/pages/Contact-US.html


----------



## doki81

cosmicholyghost said:


> Hi, there is a taobao link posted earlier on.
> 
> In Hong Kong, you can try:
> 
> http://labkable.com/pages/Contact-US.html


 
 ok...i have proceed to order with the taobao 1  thank you for the link...cant wait to try muses the legendary op amp!


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

doki81 said:


> ok...i have proceed to order with the taobao 1  thank you for the link...cant wait to try muses the legendary op amp!




Hope you get your opamp soon!

I hope to try more opamp later this week or early next week!


----------



## ampair

mine (gold) arrived today, woohoo  and if there hadn't been a state holiday in austria, it would have taken less than 48 hours to get to me (details in this post in another thread).
  
 and i am happy that at least one of my ideas (engraved serial#) made it to the final product. on the other hand, they may have been planning to do this from the beginning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 let the opamp rolling begin...


----------



## pietcux

doki81 said:


> erm..just receive my e12diy..would like to know which combi i should try first ...the stock config cant impress me yet



You might want to give the stock config some time to burn in and settle, before you start rolling components. After 40 hours the stock config really begins to shine for me. I will start rolling later in 2014. The standard E12 also took a long time to open up and sound really good.


----------



## sepinho

Yay, my E12DIY (S/N 00044) has arrived. Looking foward to tinkering with it tonight.


----------



## earfonia

Congrats to those who has just received the E12DIY!  Enjoy the fun of DIY 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 At the moment I'm testing the newly arrived Muses01 and Muses02 op-amp, right from the box, no burn-in yet.  Short (about an hour and a half) testing before going to sleep 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Source: Yulong Sabre DA8 RCA Output
 Music: Blue Chamber Quartet - First Impressions (most played track: Kicho), Chesky The World Greatest Audiophile Vocal Recording, & Vivaldi - La Cetra - 12 Violin Concertos (DSD from Channel Classics)
 Headphones: Beyerdynamic T1
 E12DIY buffer: LME49600
  
 I mainly comparing between Muses01, Muses02, Yulong DA8 headphone output, and Violectric HPA V200 connected to Yulong DA8 through balance connection.  
  
 Early impressions:
 Before comparing the Muses, I compared the stock AD8620 with Muses01, AD8620 sounds rather veiled compared with Muses01.  Muses01 has better detail, clarity and transparency.
  
 Muses01 compared with Muses02, each has their own sound signature, they don't share sound signature.
 Muses01 sound signature emphasizes on spaciousness and clarity.  It has good clarity, detail, definition, spaciousness, and air.  Muses01 has excellent perceived detail and transparency.
 Muses02 emphasizes on fullness and dynamic, while still maintaining very good detail and natural tonal balance.  With T1, Muses02 tonal balance sounds more natural compared with Muses01, more natural mids.  Bass and Midrange are fuller and thicker on Muses02, with stronger dynamic, therefore sounds more powerful than Muses01, impressively sounds like a powerful desktop amp.  Muses02 sound signature is closer to the headphone output of Yulong DA8 and Violectric HPA V200, which is to me is very2 impressive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Vocal is absolutely impressive on Muses02, full and intimate, while still natural (not overly thick) and detailed.
  
 For the setup above, especially with T1, you may already guess which Muses matches better with T1 ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes, I really like the sound signature of Muses02 paired with T1 !!!  They match really well, simply wonderful sound!  Full, powerful, good dynamic, natural tonal balance, very good detail and instruments separation... Excellent!
  
 Those who prefer more spacious and airy sound signature will like Muses01 more.  I actually like spacious and airy sounds, but with T1, Muses02 just sounds better than Muses01, overall sounds more natural with better dynamic.
 That's for now, really happy with both Muses01 and Muses02, both are really high end op-amps! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Will let them burn-in for some hours, and see if there is any changes to the sound signature.
  
 Gonna try more combination later....


----------



## pietcux

So from now on we will hear 1000 times how great Muses are. Are the oamps that are included really only worthless crap?


----------



## ClieOS

pietcux said:


> So from now on we will hear 1000 times how great Muses are. Are the oamps that are included really only worthless crap?


 
  
 Far from worthless. Those are great opamp in their own right, just not as great as the MUSES in E12DIY.


----------



## TekeRugburn

pietcux said:


> So from now on we will hear 1000 times how great Muses are. Are the oamps that are included really only worthless crap?


 
  
 the muses opamp has been regarded as a great op-amp for quite some time.  And what if it's mentioned 1000 times in this thread?


----------



## K.T.

Thanks for your review of the two Muses versions, Earphonia.
  
 Based on your comments, I think the Muses 2 might be the one for me!
  
 On a related note, I have a stock E12 on hand.
  
 Does anyone know if I'd be able to desolder the stock chip in the E12 and replace it with an 8 pin DIP Muses if I end up liking that chip? I'm not sure what package the stock E12 chip is or whether it would take a DIP. Here is a picture, in case it helps.


----------



## RAFA

pietcux said:


> So from now on we will hear 1000 times how great Muses are. Are the oamps that are included really only worthless crap?




It is probably great.

I must say that I am very happy with the LME49600 + opa604. One cannot call that crap.

Personally I will not yet buy a muses opamp. I am just not ready to add another 50€ to that.


----------



## pietcux

That's the spirit! ! Let me check out the same chips.


----------



## TekeRugburn

wow, mouser is pretty quick on shipping.  Ordered today and they said it already shipped.  Want to ordered the muses01 just to say how awesome it is.


----------



## earfonia

pietcux said:


> So from now on we will hear 1000 times how great Muses are. Are the oamps that are included really only worthless crap?


 
  
 No no no... the op-amps comes with E12DIY are good reputable op-amps, and they sound reasonably good.  AD797 is very popular, also OPA604 has a lot of fans around the world.
 I will compare them in E12DIY later.  I tested the Muses first, because they just arrived yesterday, so curious if the op-amps are in good condition or not, considering the amount of money paid.  
 System matching is also very important.  So we test those op-amps to find out in what setup they sound best.


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> Does anyone know if I'd be able to desolder the stock chip in the E12 and replace it with an 8 pin DIP Muses if I end up liking that chip? I'm not sure what package the stock E12 chip is or whether it would take a DIP. Here is a picture, in case it helps.


 
  
  
 You won't be able to close the case up with DIP8 in E12. The opamp are on the opposite side and they are SO8. If you want to mod your E12, the opamp should be 2 x SO8 mono channel. MUSES just not going to work.
  


tekerugburn said:


> wow, mouser is pretty quick on shipping.  Ordered today and they said it already shipped.  Want to ordered the muses01 just to say how awesome it is.


 
  
 I am about to order some opamp from element14 myself, and it seems we are aiming on pretty much the same selection. Beside those in your list, I am also getting the AD4627-1, OPA627 and AD8599. Decided to pass on the NJM4562 as it is not available locally and it is measured to be almost identical to LM4562. I reckon I won't miss much on it.
  
 Any other opamp you guys think are worth looking into?


----------



## earfonia

k.t. said:


> Thanks for your review of the two Muses versions, Earphonia.
> 
> Based on your comments, I think the Muses 2 might be the one for me!
> 
> ...


 
  
 High risk... better not.  Without proper tools, you might end up with a dead amp.  And as ClieOS mention, no space for DIP8.


----------



## TekeRugburn

clieos said:


> You won't be able to close the case up with DIP8 in E12. The opamp are on the opposite side and they are SO8. If you want to mod your E12, the opamp should be 2 x SO8 mono channel. MUSES just not going to work.
> 
> 
> I am about to order some opamp from element14 myself, and it seems we are aiming on pretty much the same selection. Beside those in your list, I am also getting the AD4627-1, OPA627 and AD8599. Decided to pass on the NJM4562 as it is not available locally and it is measured to be almost identical to LM4562. I reckon I won't miss much on it.
> ...


 
  
 I was looking at the OPA627 but didn't know if I should get the BP or AP... or even what the difference was.  Which one did you get?
  
 The opamps were cheap enough to try...only a buck or 2 at most so why not.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> I am about to order some opamp from element14 myself, and it seems we are aiming on pretty much the same selection. Beside those in your list, I am also getting the AD4627-1, OPA627 and AD8599. Decided to pass on the NJM4562 as it is not available locally and it is measured to be almost identical to LM4562. I reckon I won't miss much on it.
> 
> Any other opamp you guys think are worth looking into?


 
  
 You may want to try OPA1642
http://www.ti.com/product/opa1642
  
 Might not as refined as the Muses, but nice sparkling treble for mid centric IEM / headphones.


----------



## ClieOS

tekerugburn said:


> I was looking at the OPA627 but didn't know if I should get the BP or AP... or even what the difference was.  Which one did you get?


 
  
 I am getting the AU ( U= SOIC). You should NOT be getting the AP / BP since P = DIP8, plus OPA627 comes only in mono channel. Two DIP8 on adapter will be way too high to fit inside E12DIY.
  
 On a side note, you should not notice the difference in A and B version unless you have superman's hearing.


----------



## TekeRugburn

clieos said:


> I am getting the AU ( U= SOIC). You should NOT be getting the AP / BP since P = DIP8, plus OPA627 comes only in mono channel. Two DIP8 on adapter will be way too high to fit inside E12DIY.
> 
> On a side note, you should not notice the difference in A and B version unless you have superman's hearing.




I didn't even notice it was single channel lol.


----------



## eos5d

ClieOS, I'm very interested your test later on especially the AD4627-1, OPA627 and AD8599.  I should have a OPA627AU but still no luck to find it in my inventory.  I tried this Opamp in other DIY AMP which having pretty good Sound Quality.
  
 I have tried the following during my holiday.  I'm using the BUF634 for now.  LM49600 seems less fit for E12 although LM49600 perform very well with my P4.  The following are dual channels opamp except the AD797. 
  
 Muses01
 Muses02
 Muses8920
 AD8620
 LME49720HA (just for test, cannot close the cover)
 LME49860NA
 AD827SQ (also cannot close the cover although it is a DIP8 opamp)
 OPA2134
 OPA2277
 NE5532
 AD797
  
 Due to too many to try, so I can only test them for a short period of time.  At last, I just picked 3 of them which should best fit (may not be the best Opamp) for my setup at the moment and I will test them further.  
  
 Muses02
 AD8620
 OPA2134


----------



## Chefano

cosmicholyghost said:


> Hi, there is a taobao link posted earlier on.
> 
> In Hong Kong, you can try:
> 
> http://labkable.com/pages/Contact-US.html


 
 Hey CosmicHolyGhost
  
 They are the same seller? The one from taobao and the one you shared?


----------



## sulcata_geo

I like the opamps manufactured by Linear Technology.
 LT1037+LMH6321 is my most favorable combination for my E12DIY.
  
 I've orderd LT1468-2 and LT1010.
 I'll try to use LT1010 for buffer and new opamp combination.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

chefano said:


> Hey CosmicHolyGhost
> 
> They are the same seller? The one from taobao and the one you shared?




Not sure. I didnt feel like dealing with taobao so I just walked to the shop....

I am having issues with mine  
So i recommend u to order from taobao instead.


----------



## earfonia

sulcata_geo said:


> I like the opamps manufactured by Linear Technology.
> LT1037+LMH6321 is my most favorable combination for my E12DIY.
> 
> I've orderd LT1468-2 and LT1010.
> I'll try to use LT1010 for buffer and new opamp combination.


 
  
 Can share how LT1037+LMH6321 sounds compares with AD8620+BUF634 ?


----------



## ClieOS

sulcata_geo said:


> I like the opamps manufactured by Linear Technology...


 
  
 I am thinking about LT1358 and LT1469. Trying to stick to their dual channels opamp as I already have plan for all three of my dual SOIC adapter.


----------



## sulcata_geo

earfonia said:


> Can share how LT1037+LMH6321 sounds compares with AD8620+BUF634 ?


 
 The sound of LT1037 is more detailed , transparent and slightly edgy than AD8620.
 LMH6321 has wider sound stage than BUF634.
  
 I don't recommend this combination to OPA627 lovers.


----------



## sulcata_geo

clieos said:


> I am thinking about LT1358 and LT1469. Trying to stick to their dual channels opamp as I already have plan for all three of my dual SOIC adapter.


 
 I've tryed already LT1358 .
 Less detailed and transparent compare to LT1037 , but not edgy.


----------



## Chefano

cosmicholyghost said:


> Not sure. I didnt feel like dealing with taobao so I just walked to the shop....
> 
> I am having issues with mine
> So i recommend u to order from taobao instead.


 
 Ohh.. sad news. =/
 What kind of issues are you having?


----------



## Chefano

sulcata_geo said:


> The sound of LT1037 is more detailed , transparent and slightly edgy than AD8620.
> LMH6321 has wider sound stage than BUF634.
> 
> I don't recommend this combination to OPA627 lovers.


 
 why you don't recommend this combo to OPA627 lovers?


----------



## jamato8

The cleanest buffer I have heard is the HA5002. After going back and forth with Brown Dog they have made adapters for the 5002 to use in standard sockets. It uses a little more current than the BUF634, puts out slightly less power but is a little more transparent, IMO.


----------



## sulcata_geo

chefano said:


> why you don't recommend this combo to OPA627 lovers?


 
 OPA627 has rich bass and treble shiny , such as a good anlog amplifier.
 On the other hand , the sound of this combo is very tight , such as a  digital amplifier.
  
 Example might be not so good …


----------



## doki81

guess i have been spoiled by e12diy  now my dx50 sound bland without it


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

doki81 said:


> guess i have been spoiled by e12diy  now my dx50 sound bland without it


 

 +1


----------



## ClieOS

doki81 said:


> guess i have been spoiled by e12diy  now my dx50 sound bland without it


 
  
 You are not. Having own the DX50 myself, I'll go as far as saying the E12DIY completes the DX50. If anything, I think the lacking of texture is DX50's biggest weakness. and E12DIY totally cure it.


----------



## ClieOS

sulcata_geo said:


> I'll try to use LT1010 for buffer and new opamp combination.


 
  
 I took a look at LT1010 datasheet and notice the TO-220 package isn't pin compatible to to BUF634 / LME49600, so the buffer adapter can't be used. You will need to stick to DIP8 though clearance could be an issue and maybe more sanding is needed to clear the case. I tried a DIP8 on my buffer socket and it is a very tight fit in the case.


----------



## doki81

hkfriends said:


> finally my MUSES02 arrived
> 
> a little tight to close the metal case........
> 
> but the sound superb


 
 hi hkfriends or ClieOS,
  
 would you be able to show how you put the Muses 01/02 on the E12DIY? i am quite newbie on this


----------



## ClieOS

This^^^. Use the opamp removal tool that comes with the E12DIY to do the job, hold it firmly so the clamp will have a good grip on the opamp. Always removing it slowly, as some time only one side of the pins comes out first and if you pull it too fast, the pin on the other side will all be bend. Be patient and it really isn't very difficult to do.
  
 The most important thing on inserting opamp is to make sure the orientation of the opamp is correct. Insert it on the reverse / wrong order will almost always instantly kill the opamp when powered on. There is a 'notch' on the socket that tells you which way is the front, there is also either a notch or dot on the opamp that mark the front. Always double check the orientation, then all you need to do is push all the pins in


----------



## sulcata_geo

clieos said:


> I took a look at LT1010 datasheet and notice the TO-220 package isn't pin compatible to to BUF634 / LME49600, so the buffer adapter can't be used. You will need to stick to DIP8 though clearance could be an issue and maybe more sanding is needed to clear the case. I tried a DIP8 on my buffer socket and it is a very tight fit in the case.


 
 Opamp & Buffer combination of my friend is LT1364＋LT1010.
He said "no problem"


----------



## ClieOS

sulcata_geo said:


> Opamp & Buffer combination of my friend is LT1364＋LT1010.
> He said "no problem"


 
  
 That's odd consider only one pin on the TO-220 is right. Maybe your friend is using DIP8? I am getting the DIP8 myself just to be safe.


----------



## sulcata_geo

clieos said:


> That's odd consider only one pin on the TO-220 is right. Maybe your friend is using DIP8? I am getting the DIP8 myself just to be safe.


 
 Yes,my friend is using DIP8 LT1010.


----------



## ClieOS

Just ordered a bunch of opamps / buffers:
  
 Opamps: OPA627, NE5532, LME49860MA, ADA4627-1, AD8599, LT1358, LT1469, OPA1642.
 Buffers: LT1010, HA-5002.


----------



## TekeRugburn

clieos said:


> Just ordered a bunch of opamps / buffers:
> 
> Opamps: OPA627, NE5532, LME49860MA, ADA4627-1, AD8599, LT1358, LT1469, OPA1642.
> Buffers: LT1010, HA-5002.


 
  
 let us know how the buffers are.  Still loving the LME right now


----------



## toears

How a bout shortening the pins on the muses in stead of grinding the conver of the E12 ? 
 Found a muses02 locally to $41.-  Not in stock, but I don't mind waiting.  I guess they are rare here in denmark.


----------



## doki81

did a try to use back BF634 and i really cant bear the bright high of it (have let it burn over 7 hours)...switch back to LME49600 now...


----------



## ClieOS

toears said:


> How a bout shortening the pins on the muses in stead of grinding the conver of the E12 ?
> Found a muses02 locally to $41.-  Not in stock, but I don't mind waiting.  I guess they are rare here in denmark.


 
  
 Won't work. It isn't the pin but the bottom of the IC touching the top of the socket.


----------



## jamato8

clieos said:


> Just ordered a bunch of opamps / buffers:
> 
> Opamps: OPA627, NE5532, LME49860MA, ADA4627-1, AD8599, LT1358, LT1469, OPA1642.
> Buffers: LT1010, HA-5002.


 
 The 5002 is not a standard pin out so you need to use the adapter made by Brown Dog. Maybe you already know this but for others, they need to be aware of this or there will be problems somewhere and you don't want to burn something out in the amp. Xin made some nice adapters but of course, he is long gone. His have thicker traces than the Brown Dog but otherwise, the profile is about the same.


----------



## balancebox

thanks james and fiio team
  
 pick up mine from dhl 
  

  
 thanks James and Fiio Team
  
  
http://balancecube.net/


----------



## ClieOS

jamato8 said:


> The 5002 is not a standard pin out so you need to use the adapter made by Brown Dog. Maybe you already know this but for others, they need to be aware of this or there will be problems somewhere and you don't want to burn something out in the amp. Xin made some nice adapters but of course, he is long gone. His have thicker traces than the Brown Dog but otherwise, the profile is about the same.


 
  
 Thanks for the heads up. I already ordered the BrownDog adapter when I ordered the HA-5002, as I need a few more of their SO8-DIP8 adapter as well. The cheap eBay variants I got awhile ago won't work because their pins are too long and too fat to sit inside the rounded socket, and no way to trim them down. I will have to source some short PCB pins to get them to work, oh well.
  
 Would be nice if BrownDog also has something like the side mounted dual-SO8-to-DIP8 adapter included with the E12DIY, as I am also running out of those very quickly. I don't suppose any one beside FiiO is making them....


----------



## doki81

any kind soul able to demo how we use the blank pcb board provide by fiio in e12diy? i am reading the manual but still dont know how should i place it


----------



## ClieOS

doki81 said:


> any kind soul able to demo how we use the blank pcb board provide by fiio in e12diy? i am reading the manual but still dont know how should i place it


 
  
 They are for you to try out other opamp / buffer that are not included with E12DIY. The first thing is to know how to solder, then find some suitable surfaced mounted opamp / buffer you want to try and solder them to the blank PCB, then use them on the E12DIY.


----------



## toears

He he, what else could it be   Sorry, but I couldn't help it.


----------



## Cryok95

Anybody tried this for the soic-dip8 converter?

http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/home/36-50pcs-soic-to-dip-8-convert-pcb-adapter-smd-opa627-narrow-2012-new-version.html


----------



## ClieOS

cryok95 said:


> Anybody tried this for the soic-dip8 converter?
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/home/36-50pcs-soic-to-dip-8-convert-pcb-adapter-smd-opa627-narrow-2012-new-version.html


 
  
 The bid is for PCB only, it will work *only* if you have the right header pin install. Basically the pins must be the same kind (short and rounder) found on the blank PCB or BrownDog adapter.


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> I took a look at LT1010 datasheet and notice the TO-220 package isn't pin compatible to to BUF634 / LME49600, so the buffer adapter can't be used. You will need to stick to DIP8 though clearance could be an issue and maybe more sanding is needed to clear the case. I tried a DIP8 on my buffer socket and it is a very tight fit in the case.


 
  
 So a little OT.
  
 Some years back I replaced the LT1010 with BUF634 in my old Adcom GFP-565 stereo preamp. We are talking about the big TO-220 package, here.
  
 The pinouts were not the same, so I gently criss-crossed two of the leads on each chip so that the BUF634 could fit the circuitboard layout of the  LT1010.  Worked fine.
  
 Of course, might be hard to do with the smaller package in the E12DIY.
  
 I can't say how the sound changed on buffers alone because I also installed new OPA627s into the circuit.
  
 The overall sound signature was musical, but generally a lot warmer, darker, and more opaque - too much so IMO.
  
 Of course, I didn't give it much time to burn in before I moved on to something else, so maybe it would have cleared up some. This might give some insight into how OPA627 may sound with BUF634, however.


----------



## Cryok95

clieos said:


> The bid is for PCB only, it will work *only* if you have the right header pin install. Basically the pins must be the same kind (short and rounder) found on the blank PCB or BrownDog adapter.




Yeah, considering if you have both the header pins and the PCB, I wonder how this compares to the brown dog.


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> So a little OT.
> 
> Some years back I replaced the LT1010 with BUF634 in my old Adcom GFP-565 stereo preamp. We are talking about the big TO-220 package, here.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I reckon for anyone who is handy, some of the legs on the TO-220 LT1010 can be trimmed off, then soldered to the right position using jump wire. Too much trouble for the E12DIY since DIP can be used.
  


cryok95 said:


> Yeah, considering if you have both the header pins and the PCB, I wonder how this compares to the brown dog.


 
  
 If you have the right head pins, then the only other thing to look for is the thickness of the PCB. You really won't want it to be too thick. A Brown Dog will be around 1mm. Otherwise they should be about the same.
  
 Talking about header pin - I have some Mill Max 3137 coming in and hopefully they will fit. Might need some trimming though.


----------



## toears

I must say that it is the best sounding sound I ever had in a pair of headphones. And I don't even remember the current config. 
 What will happen if one tried to connect a pair of HD800 ?........


----------



## Chefano

My arrived today!!
 Thank you very much James!
 On the weekend Im gonna give it some serious listening. Lets Mod it!!


----------



## doki81

clieos said:


> In the spirit of DIY, I took the time to sand down the case so it will accommodate a DIP8 packaged opamp better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi ClieOS,
  
 can check with you....what are the tool involve for filing the E12DIY case? 1st time filing a aluminium case..


----------



## ClieOS

doki81 said:


> Hi ClieOS,
> 
> can check with you....what are the tool involve for filing the E12DIY case? 1st time filing a aluminium case..


 
  
 I used a MiniCraft rotary tool with small diamond bit to do the initial sanding down, followed by a small flat file to smooth down the surface. Dremel is probably easier to find than MiniCraft.


----------



## doki81

clieos said:


> I used a MiniCraft rotary tool with small diamond bit to do the initial sanding down, followed by a small flat file to smooth down the surface. Dremel is probably easier to find than MiniCraft.


 
 wow....i dont have any rotary tool...if only use the file tool...i guess i might need some times to finally make the 1mm depth..


----------



## nihontoman

aluminum is pretty easy to grind. get yourself a good aggressive file, start with the edges and than do the middle. pretty easy...


----------



## Shawn71

toears said:


> I must say that it is the best sounding sound I ever had in a pair of headphones. And I don't even remember the current config.
> What will happen if one tried to connect a pair of HD800 ?........



why dont you be that. "one" and share the impressions?
you should as well have a nice tube amp to A/B them.


----------



## nasudaijin

hkfriends said:


> I ordered them from China (taobao, who has a better credit, I believe some are selling fake products)


 
  
 I'm afraid to say, but as far as I can tell from the photo you've uploaded, they are fakes.
 The shape and the color of the markings are slightly different from those of legit ones.
 The color should be gray, not white.
  
 Here is the photo of a legitimate MUSES02 that I bought off of akizukidenshi.com,
 an authorized reseller.  (see http://akizukidenshi.com/catalog/g/gI-03417/)
  

  
 A legit muses02 has very soft leads, so if the leads of yours are as hard as other standard
 JRC op amps like NJM4580, NJM2608, NJM5532, NJM2114 and so on,
 I guess they are remarked NJM4580s because they have the same circuit as MUSES8820
 and MUSES02.


----------



## ClieOS

nasudaijin said:


> I'm afraid to say, but as far as I can tell from the photo you've uploaded, they are fakes.
> The shape and the color of the markings are slightly different from those of legit ones.
> The color should be gray, not white.


 
  
 With such a small picture (not yours, but hkfriends') to look at, I won't dismiss them as fake that fast. It could be just the lighting and angle of the photo that makes it look that way. Maybe we can get a bigger picture?


----------



## doki81

other than that..they are many buyer review on the muses01/02 they bought from this seller..
  
 seller insist they are original stock..
  
 i bought the same muses01/02 from the same seller...maybe can see my picture...


----------



## j0ewhite

Anyone bought from this eBay seller? Any feedback? Thanks.
  
LINK


----------



## DMax99

j0ewhite said:


> Anyone bought from this eBay seller? Any feedback? Thanks.
> 
> LINK




The picture of the logo looks FAKE


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

so i bought a bunch of opamp from element something web shop opa627 and stuff.... it turns out i need to solder on blank PCB... I think I will need to take them to shop... I know it is totally against the DIY spirit... but I thought i would confess earlier...


----------



## ClieOS

Haha, I actually soldered a bunch of opamp a few days back myself, still waiting for the BrownDog adapter to come before I can finish them up. Basically I have the OPA627 inside my E12DIY now, which I won't say is better than MUSES but certainly hold its own ground.


----------



## nasudaijin

doki81 said:


> other than that..they are many buyer review on the muses01/02 they bought from this seller..
> 
> seller insist they are original stock..
> 
> i bought the same muses01/02 from the same seller...maybe can see my picture...


 
  
 I'm afraid to say this, but I'm pretty sure they are fakes.
 The font face looks slightly thinner and smaller.
 The arc at the upper-left corner of the logo is too round.
 The nose looks a bit pointy.
 The same date code or lot number "901" is suspicious enough.
  
 Here is another close-up photo of another piece I have.
 All surfaces has the same texture.
 There are no sharp edges around the top surface.
 The top surface of a fake one must have a slightly different texture
 because it has been ground.


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> Haha, I actually soldered a bunch of opamp a few days back myself, still waiting for the BrownDog adapter to come before I can finish them up. Basically I have the OPA627 inside my E12DIY now, which I won't say is better than MUSES but certainly hold its own ground.




Thanks for commenting on the OPA627. I've been curious as to how it sounds in this amp. Your initial comments are very positive.

Did you use the side-by-side adapter? Photos would be great whenever you have a chance.

More info about how they compare to the Muses would be great! Whenever the time is right, of course.


----------



## razorblader

clieos said:


> Here are my impression over a few opamps in the E12DIY. I stuck to BUF637 this time and will look into LME49600 some other time.
> 
> AD8620 - good detail, almost edgy, a little flat on soundstage and lean on lower end texture
> MUSES01 - near perfect balance. ultra smooth and full sounding with lots of texture
> ...


 

 Would AD825 (two on adapter) also work? Gonna pick up my E12 DIY at the post office tomorrow and thought I'd give it a shot if it's compatible.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

j0ewhite said:


> Anyone bought from this eBay seller? Any feedback? Thanks.
> 
> LINK


 

 I have bought from here but remains untested atm as I am travelling. It was recommended earlier in the thread.


----------



## K.T.

So does Digikey carry the MUSES for the US market? Anyone else carry these stateside? 

Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> Thanks for commenting on the OPA627. I've been curious as to how it sounds in this amp. Your initial comments are very positive.
> 
> Did you use the side-by-side adapter? Photos would be great whenever you have a chance.
> 
> More info about how they compare to the Muses would be great! Whenever the time is right, of course.


 
  
 Will post some picture later.
  
 As far as sound impression goes, I reckon OPA627 is right between MUSE01 (texture) and 02 (resolution and soundstage), but closer to 01. It is not quite as good as either, but I don't feel like it is any noticeable downgrade either.
  


razorblader said:


> Would AD825 (two on adapter) also work? Gonna pick up my E12 DIY at the post office tomorrow and thought I'd give it a shot if it's compatible.


 
  
 It should work. I might get a pair myself later on.
  


k.t. said:


> So does Digikey carry the MUSES for the US market? Anyone else carry these stateside?
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 I believe only Mouser has stock in the U.S. Digikey needs 500 minimum order (or is it 100? Well, doesn't make a difference). Both are $70+ a piece. I would guess using a forwarding service like Tenso and get it from the Japan distributor will still come in much cheaper, as ithey are sold in Japan for half the price.


----------



## doki81

nasudaijin said:


> I'm afraid to say, but as far as I can tell from the photo you've uploaded, they are fakes.
> The shape and the color of the markings are slightly different from those of legit ones.
> The color should be gray, not white.
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you for your feedback. i am now contacting the seller on taobao and see what he can do. as he insist what he selling is original.


----------



## doki81

i have contacted the seller and he is insisting his product is original. i will try to get my op amp from the japan store and then do the A and B comparison and also the SQ of it....


----------



## earfonia

I've been comparing:
 Muses01
 Muses02
 OPA2209
 AD8599
 Using buffer LM49600
 All are compared with another E12DIY with stock AD8620 and BUF634.  As I have 2 units of E12DIY at the moment, it is easier to reference to the default sound signature.
  
 Source is Yulong DA8, this time with IEM JVC HA-FXD80 (previously I've been using Beyerdynamic T1 for testing E12DIY).
  
 I'm surprised to find that AD8599 is a great contender to the Muses 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




http://sg.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=AD8599ARZvirtualkey99990000virtualkey584-AD8599ARZ
  
 On the above setup, with JVC HA-FXD80 as monitor, I find that AD8599 sounds best 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 On E12DIY, ClieOS is right, OPA2209 doesn't sound interesting, only roughly about the same as stock AD8620.  Later I will compare it with Dr. DAC2 DX, since OPA2209 was sounds pretty good in Dr. DAC2 DX when I tried some months ago.
  
 With Beyerdynamic T1, Muses02 is still my preferred Op-Amp, but with JVC FXD80, Muses02 has too much midrange to my liking.
 AD8599 is closer to Muses01 than to Muses02 in term of tonal balance.  Midrange is a tad laid back compared to the stock AD8620+BUF634, Muses01, and Muses02. But AD8599 vocal sounds more relax and transparent in my opinion.
  
*AD8599 sound signature in summary:*
 Excellent frequency extension from low bass to upper treble.  It sounds very open and transparent with nice natural treble decay, more transparent than the stock AD8620+BUF634, Muses02, pretty close to Muses01, but still a 'TAD' more transparent than Muses01, which is very impressive.
 As mentioned, vocal is a bit more laid back than the rest of Op-Amp mentioned above, in a good way, more relax, open and transparent.  If one prefers more intimate and forward vocal, Muses01 and Muses02 have more forward and intimate vocal compared with AD8599.
 AD8599 Bass is excellent, extends very low, and has the most transparent bass.  What I mean by the transparent bass is bass with good definition and clarity.  Clear bass that never sounds muddy.  Mid bass punch maybe slightly less punchy than Muses01 and Muses02, but the bass is clearer, with better low bass.  Bass punch and overall quality is still better than stock AD8620+BUF634.
 Imaging and spaciousness is best on AD8599, most spacious sounding in the group.
 AD8599 also very detailed and revealing, so be careful with not so good recording, especially with bright and metallic treble, it might be unbearable with AD8599.  But with good recording, AD8599 really shines.
 For example, listening to HDtracks 2013 Sampler, Cassandra Wilson - Another Country, is simply too too bright with JVC FXD80.  Patricia Barber - The Wind Song sounds alright, with moderate amount of sibilant, and the other 8 tracks in the album sound simply excellent.
  
 What I like most from the AD8599 is the transparency and the sense of spaciousness, with excellent frequency extension 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 AD8599 is for those who like spaciousness and transparency.  For those who like warm and intimate signature, OPA2604 / OPA604 and Muses02 is better.
 AD8599 might be more suitable with natural to warm sounding earphones & headphones, might sounds bright with bright earphones / headphones, so please take note.
 Although JVC FXD80 I consider as having natural V-shape tonal balance, the treble with AD8599 is still nice, transparent, not too bright with good quality recordings.
*Especially for classical music, AD8599 must be on the short list of the must try op-amp!*
  
 Those who has difficulty getting the Muses01, may give AD8599 a try 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Highly recommended!
  
 As shown in the picture, I fabricated a special cable and a switch box for the test.  
 The DIY cable and switch box help me to quickly compare the sound signature without having to do too much unplugging and plugging of cables.
 The cable is connected to the Balanced output (XLR) of Yulong DA8 (not shown), split the output into 2x Unbalanced output with 3.5 mm mini jack, connected to two Fiio E12DIY.
 The 2 unbalanced mini jacks output is reverse in polarity, and I don't hear any difference between the 2.  This is expected, since the reverse of polarity is not between L & R channels in the same stereo pair, but between 2 separate stereo pairs.  Yulong DA8 has inverse polarity switch, so I can use it to hear the same polarity when switching between the 2 E12DIY, if necessary.
 The bottom one is with stock AD8620, the top one is the one I use for Op-Amp rolling.


----------



## ClieOS

Agree on the AD8599, it is a must try for those who find AD8620 a little too shape. I think the AD8599 is probably the best sounding AD I have tried on E12DIY, matching that of ADA6427-1 and AD797 without much issue.


----------



## jamato8

Anyone try the AD744 KN? A very nice op amp. Must be the KN.


----------



## earfonia

jamato8 said:


> Anyone try the AD744 KN? A very nice op amp. Must be the KN.


 
  
 Can share the sound signature of AD744 KN that you remember?
 The difficult part is AD744 KN is single channel, E12DIY doesn't have much space to accommodate 2 single channel op-amps, especially DIP-8.


----------



## ClieOS

jamato8 said:


> Must be the KN.


 
  
 KN won't work on the E12DIY because it is single channel DIP8 (too tall with adapter). 2x KR (SOP8) should work for the same spec.


----------



## eos5d

clieos said:


> Just ordered a bunch of opamps / buffers:
> 
> Opamps: OPA627, NE5532, LME49860MA, ADA4627-1, AD8599, LT1358, LT1469, OPA1642.
> Buffers: LT1010, HA-5002.


 

 Hi ClieOS, may I know where you get the HA-5002 please?  I think I bought a wrong HA-5002 previously.  I search DigiKey but not sure which one is the one.  Thanks.


----------



## JamesFiiO

seems the E12DIY provides a very good platform so you guys can find the best sound for yourself.


----------



## ClieOS

eos5d said:


> Hi ClieOS, may I know where you get the HA-5002 please?  I think I bought a wrong HA-5002 previously.  I search DigiKey but not sure which one is the one.  Thanks.


 
  
 Mine come from Elelment14 (= Newark for those of you in the U.S.). Try searching 'HA9P5002' instead of 'HA-5002'. Intersil has a funny way of using a different part name from the name of the chip themselves. Remember to get the special BrownDog adapter as well.
  


jamesfiio said:


> seems the E12DIY provides a very good platform so you guys can find the best sound for yourself.


 
  
 We have you to thank for 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'll go as far to say E12DIY is a landmark for FiiO


----------



## razorblader

jamesfiio said:


> seems the E12DIY provides a very good platform so you guys can find the best sound for yourself.


 
  
 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> We have you to thank for
> 
> ...


 
 +1
  
 I found out too late about the DIY to pre-order but was able to source one from one of Fiio's distribution partners and it's waiting at the post office for pickup as we speak.
  
 The concept of the E12 DIY is nothing short of awesome and once again Fiio has given us something special.
 Thank you James and the rest of the team at Fiio, I continue to be impressed with your willingness to listen to user input to give us the toys we want.
  
 I agree with ClieOS, the DIY is indeed a landmark.


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

Thanks, James! Love this amp. 
Hopefully it gets a wider release, people need to hear this.


----------



## eos5d

clieos said:


> Mine come from Elelment14 (= Newark for those of you in the U.S.). Try searching 'HA9P5002' instead of 'HA-5002'. Intersil has a funny way of using a different part name from the name of the chip themselves. Remember to get the special BrownDog adapter as well.


 
  
 Hi ClieOS, thank you for your info.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I just ordered some other Opamp from element14 a while ago.   Hope they can ship it together with the HA-5002.  Will check the BD adapter soon.


----------



## ClieOS

clieos said:


> Will post some picture later.


 
  
 As promised:
  




 Inside E12DIY: OPA627
 1st row (from left): ADA4627-1, OPA1642, AD8599
 2nd row: NE5532, LM4562, LME49720, LT1358
 3th row: LT1010 x 2
 Still got a few more I need to mount when the BrownDog adapters come, namely LME49990, HA-5002, LT1469, and LME49860. Might also order a few more opamp by February but I am not sure yet.
  





 
 MUSES


----------



## razorblader

clieos said:


> It should work. I might get a pair myself later on.


 
 Thanks ClieOS. Picked up my DIY today and will try the AD825 tomorrow if time permits.


----------



## K.T.

I'm surprised to find that AD8599 is a great contender to the Muses 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



http://sg.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=AD8599ARZvirtualkey99990000virtualkey584-AD8599ARZ
  
  
 Thanks for this tip. I'm going to order the AD8599 and give it a try.
  
 I'm also going to get some OPA627 from Mouser at the same time.
  
 I am looking at the various soic8 packages that are available for OPA627. There are two choices of the ones that you can buy in small quantities. One is the OPA627AU. The other the OPA627AUE4. They both ring in at the same price: $25.65 ea.
  
Does anyone know what the difference between these two is? Even after looking at the datasheet, I am not sure.
  
Interestingly, folks have been complaining about the high cost of the OPA627 for years (over $50 for two channels). I guess Muses takes that to a new high. Still, I'll try out Muses once it's easy to get small quantities in the States.
  
Thanks
  
Update: a closer look at the datasheet shows the AUE4 version to be obsolete. Mouser still has them in stock and sells them, but it looks like the AU is the version TI is still producing.


----------



## earfonia

jamesfiio said:


> seems the E12DIY provides a very good platform so you guys can find the best sound for yourself.


 
  
*Thanks a lot to you and the Fiio team!  You guys are awesome!*
 I hope in the future, Fiio will have another DIY amp series, both portable and desktop 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 One question James, for the buffer BUF634 & LME49600, they both have wide bandwidth pin that can be activated for wider bandwidth (also draw more power).  Is this wide bandwidth pin used / connected in E12DIY buffers ?
  
  
 If I may suggest some features for the next model of DIY amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :
  
*1. Universal DIP-8 socket for both single channel and dual channels Op-Amp. *
 So we don't need adapters, and can easily try more variety of single and dual channels Op-Amps.
 Something like this:

  
*2. Dual active ground channels.*
 So total 4 channels:
 Left channel
 Left ground channel
 Right channel
 Right ground channel
  
 I call it Pseudo Balance Amplifier topology, as per my experiment a few years ago:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/553236/pseudo-balanced-amplifier-pba
  
 With Pseudo Balance Amplifier (PBA) topology, we can experience sound improvement of balanced earphones / headphones, without the need of balance source.  The source can be the normal portable player (unbalanced).  Also, the amp doesn't require 4 gangs volume pot which is expensive and rare, the amp can use the normal stereo volume pot.
 PBA Topology also immune to phase distortion between the positive output and the negative output that might occurs in balance amplifier. 
  
 The amp will be bigger, since there will be 4 active channels compared to the 2 channels of the current E12DIY, but for die hard audiophile and DIYer, I don't think it is a big issue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Just my 2cents 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thank you!


----------



## JamesFiiO

E12DIY maybe the only one we make for portable amp lovers, everyone known we make money from mass production and that is the key we can set the price at affordable price level.  for E12DIY, it still took our R/D resource and lots of hand work by our workers. and the total quantity is 
  
 limited so it is not a good project to us.


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> ... I am looking at the various soic8 packages that are available for OPA627. There are two choices of the ones that you can buy in small quantities. One is the OPA627AU. The other the OPA627AUE4. They both ring in at the same price: $25.65 ea.
> 
> Does anyone know what the difference between these two is? Even after looking at the datasheet, I am not sure.
> ...


 

  
 E4 is originally G4, which basically is just TI marking related to how green / RoHS compliance the part is. Doesn't in anyway affect the SQ.


----------



## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> E12DIY maybe the only one we make for portable amp lovers, everyone known we make money from mass production and that is the key we can set the price at affordable price level.  for E12DIY, it still took our R/D resource and lots of hand work by our workers. and the total quantity is
> 
> limited so it is not a good project to us.


 
 Hi James,
  
 is there a way for us to buy spare E12DIY casing?


----------



## hoekeat

clieos said:


> Mine come from Elelment14 (= Newark for those of you in the U.S.). Try searching 'HA9P5002' instead of 'HA-5002'. Intersil has a funny way of using a different part name from the name of the chip themselves. Remember to get the special BrownDog adapter as well.


 
  
 http://my.element14.com/intersil/ha9p5002-9z/ic-buffer-amplifier-10mhz-soic/dp/2124557
  
 is this the correct one? and we need to solder this on a browndog adapter? i am looking at the pins, the space between the pin to be exact, how difficult is it to do a proper soldering? care to share a photo of a completed one?


----------



## ClieOS

hoekeat said:


> http://my.element14.com/intersil/ha9p5002-9z/ic-buffer-amplifier-10mhz-soic/dp/2124557
> 
> is this the correct one? and we need to solder this on a browndog adapter? i am looking at the pins, the space between the pin to be exact, how difficult is it to do a proper soldering? care to share a photo of a completed one?


 
  
 Yes. But not just any BrownDog adapter, it must be this: http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302-1.aspx
  
 As for how difficult it is - it is exactly the same as any other SMT soldering, harder than your regular soldering but not something you can't master with a bit more patient, sturdy hands and hopeful a solder iron with relatively small tip. I haven't had my BrownDog adapter yet so I can't show you the finished products, but it is the same as the other mounted opamp I posted a few post above. If you want to learn more, check out youtube as there are some tutorial video there. If you never solder anything before however, I won't recommend jumping straight into SMT soldering. You might want to build something like a cmoy first just for practice. If you really don't know how to begin, you can always go to any electronics repair shop and ask them to solder for you for a fee.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> Yes. But not just any BrownDog adapter, it must be this: http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302-1.aspx
> 
> As for how difficult it is - it is exactly the same as any other SMT soldering, harder than your regular soldering but not something you can't master with a bit more patient, sturdy hands and hopeful a solder iron with relatively small tip. I haven't had my BrownDog adapter yet so I can't show you the finished products, but it is the same as the other mounted opamp I posted a few post above. If you want to learn more, check out youtube as there are some tutorial video there. If you never solder anything before however, I won't recommend jumping straight into SMT soldering. You might want to build something like a cmoy first just for practice. If you really don't know how to begin, you can always go to any electronics repair shop and ask them to solder for you for a fee.


 
  
 The two OPA627 will be on both sides, top and bottom of the browndog adapter right?
 Any concern that it will be too thick for the E12DIY tight spaces?


----------



## earfonia

earfonia said:


> The two OPA627 will be on both sides, top and bottom of the browndog adapter right?
> Any concern that it will be too thick for the E12DIY tight spaces?


 
  
 Ooopss sorry, I thought the adapter was for OPA627... didn't read the title that it is for HA-5002 to BUF634 adapter....


----------



## JamesFiiO

doki81 said:


> Hi James,
> 
> is there a way for us to buy spare E12DIY casing?


 
  
 sorry , not like other model, there are only one batch of E12DIY so we have not spare parts for E12DIY. and it will be difficult to us to order very small quantity from our supplier.


----------



## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> sorry , not like other model, there are only one batch of E12DIY so we have not spare parts for E12DIY. and it will be difficult to us to order very small quantity from our supplier.


 
 ouch..ok...i shall be more carefull when i file my case for the muses opamp then ..thanks for the head up.


----------



## jamato8

doki81 said:


> ouch..ok...i shall be more carefull when i file my case for the muses opamp then ..thanks for the head up.


 
 Yes, it would seem you would want to be very careful.


----------



## K.T.

earfonia said:


> The two OPA627 will be on both sides, top and bottom of the browndog adapter right?
> Any concern that it will be too thick for the E12DIY tight spaces?




I believe ClieOS and others have indicated that the dual-level soic-to-dip adapter will be too thick to fit into the case once you get the chips on. You will have to use that side-by-side adapter, I believe.

I think one of those side-by-side boards came with the amp. Not sure where you'd get extras, though.


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> I think one of those side-by-side boards came with the amp. Not sure where you'd get extras, though.


 
  
 There are three side-by-side dual SOIC blank adapters, three single SOIC blank adapter and two TO220 / DDPAK buffer blank adapters included. They are underneath the foam pad that houses the stock opamp / buffer. Just take out the foam and you will find them.
  
 You pretty much won't find much use for the extra buffer blank since most other alternative buffer don't come in TO220 / DDPAK package. Single SOIC blank adapter can be replaced by using BrownDog single SOIC adapter. I won't recommend buying cheap single SOIC adapter on eBay as none of them has the right slim rounded pins that can fit on the rounded DIP socket in the E12DIY. I have found out that, unless you are in the U.S., round pins are very difficult to find and often not cheap. You will be better off with the real BrownDog. As for the side-by-side dual SOIC adapter, they are only made by FiiO specially for E12DIY. For those who used up all three, try contact FiiO and see if you can get more from them, probably for a fee. You can custom order them from many PCB maker, if you are willing to pay the high cost.


----------



## nasudaijin

clieos said:


> As promised:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh, I didn't know there are fake MUSES8820s on the market.
 Here is some photos of legit MUSES8820.
 All MUSES op amps I have seen have two capital letters on the back.
 The font face of the fake one looks a bit thinner.
 The width of "E" is too narrow.
 The shape of "0" is too oval.
 Your MUSES01 and MUSES8920 look legitimate.
 I guess your MUSES02 and MUSES8820 are actually NJM4580.


----------



## ClieOS

> Originally Posted by *nasuda*
> 
> I guess your MUSES02 and MUSES8820 are actually NJM4580.


 
 They are from Japanese legit dealer, not fake.


----------



## doki81

nasudaijin said:


> Oh, I didn't know there are fake MUSES8820s on the market.
> Here is some photos of legit MUSES8820.
> All MUSES op amps I have seen have two capital letters on the back.
> The font face of the fake one looks a bit thinner.
> ...


 
 woo...do you have the NJM4580 op amp? if yes..could you also give us the bottom photo image with the engraving letter on it?


----------



## nasudaijin

clieos said:


> They are from Japanese legit dealer, not fake.


 
  
 Are you sure?
 Which shop did you buy them from?
  
 I only know three authorized resellers.
 http://akizukidenshi.com/
 http://eleshop.jp/
 http://www.chip1stop.com/
  
 I think these shops are only sources for individuals.
 MUSE02 is priced 3400 JPY, MUSES01, 3500 JPY.
 MUSES8820, 400 JPY, and MUSES8920, 480 JPY.
 It's impossible to get them at lower prices here in Japan
 unless they are used.
  
 There is some shop in Mie prefecture that sells fake MUSES op amps on the net.
 Like this.
 http://item.rakuten.co.jp/shinyou-toukai/10000079/
 http://item.rakuten.co.jp/shinyou-toukai/10000080/
 But this shop is no authorized reseller.
  
 No offense, but I'm pretty sure your MUSES02 and MUSES8820 are fakes.
 The top surfaces of them have been ground.
 MUSES02 and MUSES8820 look different from MUSES01 and MUSE8920
 in the photo you took. It's odd.
  
 I'm gonna put some photos of NJM4580DD later.


----------



## nasudaijin

doki81 said:


> woo...do you have the NJM4580 op amp? if yes..could you also give us the bottom photo image with the engraving letter on it?


 
  
 Here you are.
 I have 12 pieces of NJM4580DD.
 I found one with two capital letters on the back but
 the others have one or two small letters.
 Of course, I can't assure you that all MUSES op amps have two capital letters.
 There might be some with small letters on the back.


----------



## doki81

nasudaijin said:


> Here you are.
> I have 12 pieces of NJM4580DD.
> I found one with two capital letters on the back but
> the others have one or two small letters.
> ...


 
 woo..thank you for the picture...i also just snap some of the photo of my muses 01/02 front and back picture... it does look different from what you have 
  

  
 the one showing back engraving is muses02 with print 53d
  

  
 this one is muses01 showing back with small 0 and J engraving....


----------



## JamesFiiO

the muses series are too expensive otherwise we can put it into E12DIY, at the other hand , or the OP / BUF included in E12DIY is came from original factory so you don't need to worry about it is fake or not, I known there are some fake audio op/buf in China.


----------



## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> the muses series are too expensive otherwise we can put it into E12DIY, at the other hand , or the OP / BUF included in E12DIY is came from original factory so you don't need to worry about it is fake or not, I known there are some fake audio op/buf in China.


 
 haha..it's ok James..the DIY series E12 is already very great for us.


----------



## ClieOS

nasudaijin said:


> Are you sure?
> Which shop did you buy them from?
> 
> I only know three authorized resellers.
> ...


 
  
 Didn't buy them myself. They come from Elekit as part of the review samples. Elekit uses MUSES8820/8920 on their portable amp so I assume they got their opamps from reputable supplier. I do remember the MUSES02 came with the similar package as the one shown on akizukidenshi.com. I guess the only real way to know is to put them under x-ray...


----------



## jamato8

clieos said:


> Didn't buy them myself. They come from Elekit as part of the review samples. Elekit uses MUSES8820/8920 on their portable amp so I assume they got their opamps from reputable supplier. I do remember the MUSES02 came with the similar package as the one shown on akizukidenshi.com. I guess the only real way to know is to put them under x-ray...


 
 Or to compare to a known Muse of absolute true origin. If no sound difference is heard either they are both fake, both real or one a fake, and the fake is very good so it doesn't matter. :^)


----------



## ClieOS

jamato8 said:


> Or to compare to a known Muse of absolute true origin. If no sound difference is heard either they are both fake, both real or one a fake, and the fake is very good so it doesn't matter. :^)


 
  
 True. I'll probably order some JRC opamp from akizukidenshi.com soon, might as well adding the MUSES in my shopping cart given how cheap they are in Japan. Have to order JRC opamp from Japan anyway since no local dealer is selling them and ordering from U.S. just isn't feasible due to the high shipping cost.


----------



## talisman42

guess I was couple months late to the thread. After no having the opportunity to get the first rev.1 of E12 with sub bass boost, I'm wondering if these DIY models can be customized to get the bass boost at the user preferred requence (50hz or 80hz or 100+ hz). I've been in and out of these threads, so please let me know if I'm clearly missing some key concepts. The other question is if the DIY will ever be redistributed?
  
 THanks


----------



## duyu

doki81 said:


> woo..thank you for the picture...i also just snap some of the photo of my muses 01/02 front and back picture... it does look different from what you have
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I remember that you bought them from Taobao? 
 I want to try muses, too.
 Taobao offers some really good deals, but really worry about buying faked products...


----------



## jamato8

clieos said:


> True. I'll probably order some JRC opamp from akizukidenshi.com soon, might as well adding the MUSES in my shopping cart given how cheap they are in Japan. Have to order JRC opamp from Japan anyway since no local dealer is selling them and ordering from U.S. just isn't feasible due to the high shipping cost.


 
 What does the Muse cost in Japan?


----------



## doki81

duyu said:


> I remember that you bought them from Taobao?
> I want to try muses, too.
> Taobao offers some really good deals, but really worry about buying faked products...




mine bought from taobao at 180rmb each. but according to nasudajin it's a fake. 



jamato8 said:


> What does the Muse cost in Japan?



around 3400jpy...but not yet include shipping. I have place my order for muses01 and 02 from the seller that nasudajin recommended and now waiting for shipping to me...


----------



## ClieOS

jamato8 said:


> What does the Muse cost in Japan?


 
  


doki81 said:


> around 3400jpy...but not yet include shipping.


 
  
 Which is half as much as what Mouser is asking for. Even with shipping ang handling fee included, it will still come out much cheaper than from the U.S., before adding the ridiculous amount of oversea shipping Mouser wants (near $50 in my case).


----------



## doki81

yes... Mouser price is crazy. unless you are taking bulk with them. else I see no reason buying from them.


----------



## jamato8

Is there any place that is US shipping friendly from Japan? I looked at the sites but hard for me to figure out.


----------



## doki81

jamato8 said:


> Is there any place that is US shipping friendly from Japan? I looked at the sites but hard for me to figure out.



i am using a forwarding service call tenso. they have this buy for me service which you just need to give them the link and ask them for quotation to buy for you.


----------



## ClieOS

doki81 said:


> i am using a forwarding service call tenso. they have this buy for me service which you just need to give them the link and ask them for quotation to buy for you.


 
  
 Same here, I am using Tenso buying service as well. As far as fee goes, it is $15 for the buying service, $5 for the shipping in Japan, and usually another $15 for oversea shipping and handling from Japan to Malaysia. So it is a total of $35, gives or takes. It might not seem like saving much at first, but should still come out cheaper if you order a few opamp at a time. I am thinking of ordering 9 JRC opamp including the MUSES, for just under $100 total. If I ordered them from U.S., it could cost me almost double.


----------



## hkfriends

doki81 said:


> i am using a forwarding service call tenso. they have this buy for me service which you just need to give them the link and ask them for quotation to buy for you.


 

 yep... I am going to order 2 pieces from akizukidenshi then compare both with taobao's


----------



## doki81

clieos said:


> Same here, I am using Tenso buying service as well. As far as fee goes, it is $15 for the buying service, $5 for the shipping in Japan, and usually another $15 for oversea shipping and handling from Japan to Malaysia. So it is a total of $35, gives or takes. It might not seem like saving much at first, but should still come out cheaper if you order a few opamp at a time. I am thinking of ordering 9 JRC opamp including the MUSES, for just under $100 total. If I ordered them from U.S., it could cost me almost double.


 
 are all those opamp all gonna use on e12diy? care to share which 9 opamp you gonna order?


----------



## hkfriends

Quote: 





nasudaijin said:


> Oh, I didn't know there are fake MUSES8820s on the market.
> Here is some photos of legit MUSES8820.
> All MUSES op amps I have seen have two capital letters on the back.
> The font face of the fake one looks a bit thinner.
> ...


 
  
  
 OK, I also share a real MUSES 8820 , which is a bundled IC from Japan Elekit TU-HP01 Portable Amp


----------



## duyu

hkfriends said:


> yep... I am going to order 2 pieces from akizukidenshi then compare both with taobao's


 
 Please let us know the result!


----------



## ClieOS

doki81 said:


> are all those opamp all gonna use on e12diy? care to share which 9 opamp you gonna order?


 
  
 Well, not just for E12DIY. I am trying to build up a collection of opamp for future use as well. Beside 4 MUSES, I also plan to get NJM4580, NJM4556, NJM4558, NJM5532 and NJM2114.


----------



## eos5d

Hi all, I would like to share mine (attached photo) to give everyone a reference.
  
 I bought the Muses01 from Akizukidenshi shop directly on last year but the Muses02 was bought from a reseller (I forgot from whom) a couple years ago.   The Muses01 has a package of a plasic bag only but the Muses02 comes with a metal box (and a DIP8 socket).  I'm not sure my Muses02 is real or not now because I'm also get confused after reading the post.   I have also bought the Muses02 from Akizukidenshi for my friend previously.   I will ask my friend to borrow his for me to compare them.


----------



## razorblader

talisman42 said:


> guess I was couple months late to the thread. After no having the opportunity to get the first rev.1 of E12 with sub bass boost, I'm wondering if these DIY models can be customized to get the bass boost at the user preferred requence (50hz or 80hz or 100+ hz). I've been in and out of these threads, so please let me know if I'm clearly missing some key concepts. The other question is if the DIY will ever be redistributed?
> 
> THanks


 

 1. The DIY has no bass boost circuit, no crossfeed either.
  
 2. According to Fiio the DIY is a one-off, there are Fiio dealers who still have limited stock atm though.


----------



## jazzman7

The E12DIY also has a high gain switch that is a protruding toggle at the top instead of a recessed toggle on the side on the standard E12. The top switch is much more convenient to use, especially if you change headphones often.


----------



## K.T.

Has anyone compared the E12DIY to the JDS Labs C421 or C5? 

Both very highly regarded portable amps, with C421 no longer made.

The C421 came in two versions, one with AD8620 and the other with OPA2227. C5 comes with OPA2227.

I wonder how these amps sound compared to the E12DIY using the same chips?


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> Has anyone compared the E12DIY to the JDS Labs C421 or C5?


 

 With the stock AD8620, I'll say E12DIY is roughly on par with C5 and C421-AD8620. With the right opamp, I pretty much prefer E12DIY all the way.


----------



## jamato8

Anyone try the OPA2111AM gold pin, the made in the USA metal can version? Very nice sounding and different from the other versions. hmmm, it may not fit, not especially a low profile op amp since it has to sit on a base to guid the pins. Will find out when I get a E12 DIY.


----------



## doki81

jamato8 said:


> Anyone try the OPA2111AM gold pin, the made in the USA metal can version? Very nice sounding and different from the other versions. hmmm, it may not fit, not especially a low profile op amp since it has to sit on a base to guid the pins. Will find out when I get a E12 DIY.


 
 i think the pin can straight away fix on the opamp section..but might need to trim the pin a bit...


----------



## earfonia

eos5d said:


> Hi all, I would like to share mine (attached photo) to give everyone a reference.
> 
> I bought the Muses01 from Akizukidenshi shop directly on last year but the Muses02 was bought from a reseller (I forgot from whom) a couple years ago.   The Muses01 has a package of a plasic bag only but the Muses02 comes with a metal box (and a DIP8 socket).  I'm not sure my Muses02 is real or not now because I'm also get confused after reading the post.   I have also bought the Muses02 from Akizukidenshi for my friend previously.   I will ask my friend to borrow his for me to compare them.


 
  
 I bought from Taobao, the Hong Kong shop, referred in previous post.  According to some post and comparing to some pictures of the real Muses posted here, mine maybe fakes.
 So far I haven't really impress with the sound quality of my Muses01 and Muses02.  Although Muses02 sounds very2 nice with my Beyerdynamic T1, but I would say it is quite colored with too much mids.  While my Muses01, it is not better than AD8599.  I've been comparing them for days, I've keep coming back to AD8599 for having better bass extension, and more 'Ooomph' to the music, while transparency and imaging is quite similar, which is excellent.
  
 My Muses bought from Hong Kong shop on Taobao:


----------



## ClieOS

doki81 said:


> i think the pin can straight away fix on the opamp section..but might need to trim the pin a bit...


 
  
 It will still be too high to fit inside the case, given metal can is usually 1.5~2mm higher than DIP8.
  
  
 Talking about fake - I deliberately brought a pair of very cheap OPA627 off eBay just to compare them to the genuine pair I got from element14, and of course the fake sound nothing like the real deal. They are not bad sounding per se but certainly not really good sounding either. Remind me more of the sounding OPA2227 (bright, grainy and lean on the bottom) rather than the smooth and full sounding OPA627 is known for.


----------



## catspaw

Damn, i totally missed this....
 You cant get it anymore right?


----------



## doki81

catspaw said:


> Damn, i totally missed this....
> You cant get it anymore right?


 
 not for the pre-order price...you can search around the internet..someone might sell theirs away..


----------



## razorblader

catspaw said:


> Damn, i totally missed this....
> You cant get it anymore right?


 

 There are Fiio dealers that still have limited stock, I bought mine from a Fiio dealer in Germany since I'm in Europe. You can find the list of dealers on Fiio's website and inquire who has ordered some/got some stock left.


----------



## razorblader

Those look fake I'm afraid.
  
 Quote:


earfonia said:


> I bought from Taobao, the Hong Kong shop, referred in previous post.  According to some post and comparing to some pictures of the real Muses posted here, mine maybe fakes.
> So far I haven't really impress with the sound quality of my Muses01 and Muses02.  Although Muses02 sounds very2 nice with my Beyerdynamic T1, but I would say it is quite colored with too much mids.  While my Muses01, it is not better than AD8599.  I've been comparing them for days, I've keep coming back to AD8599 for having better bass extension, and more 'Ooomph' to the music, while transparency and imaging is quite similar, which is excellent.
> 
> My Muses bought from Hong Kong shop on Taobao:


----------



## catspaw

razorblader said:


> There are Fiio dealers that still have limited stock, I bought mine from a Fiio dealer in Germany since I'm in Europe. You can find the list of dealers on Fiio's website and inquire who has ordered some/got some stock left.


 
 Good idea. Since i live in Poland it should be possible to get from Europe.


----------



## earfonia

> Those look fake I'm afraid.


 
  
 Yes, I think they are fakes


----------



## jamato8

Not to derail from the amp, but since the Muse are what many enjoy, what are indicators visually of a fake or not? Are there always real cues and examples of real op amps? I have read and looked at what has been posted but to me, it still isn't clear. Does anyone have a side by side comparison?


----------



## razorblader

jamato8 said:


> Not to derail from the amp, but since the Muse are what many enjoy, what are indicators visually of a fake or not? Are there always real cues and examples of real op amps? I have read and looked at what has been posted but to me, it still isn't clear. Does anyone have a side by side comparison?


 

 Original:
  


 Possible fake:
  
  

  
 Notice the more roundish shape of the top bow on the letter m on the possible fake and the slightly different shape of the 'nose'.


----------



## toears

A lot about fakes and not... I now know what to look for when I am collecting my 02. Ordered it from a reputable dealer here in DK. And then next project is grinding some aluminium!!


----------



## doki81

toears said:


> A lot about fakes and not... I now know what to look for when I am collecting my 02. Ordered it from a reputable dealer here in DK. And then next project is grinding some aluminium!!


 
 i have been grinding my casing whole night but still cannot get the good result....guess i will have to grind further..


----------



## ClieOS

> Originally Posted by *nasudaijin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> ...
> I guess your MUSES02 and MUSES8820 are actually NJM4580.


 
  
 Just got some words back from Elekit. The MUSES02 they sent to me is either from eleshop.jp or akizukidenshi.com. They ordered only from either of those places but can't remember which is where mine come from. So the MUSES02 is definitely genuine, and that raises the question on what kind of finishing(s) are on the MUSES series - My MUSES01 come from ASUS (which uses a ton of them in their Xonar Essence series of DAC) so authenticity is also guaranteed. That can only lead to one conclusion that MUSES does have different kind of finishing and it doesn't automatically means fake if they don't look identical to another's MUSES.
  
 Well, all add to the mystery of the MUSES...


----------



## doki81

clieos said:


> Just got some words back from Elekit. The MUSES02 they sent to me is either from eleshop.jp or akizukidenshi.com. They ordered only from either of those places but can't remember which is where mine come from. So the MUSES02 is definitely genuine, and that raises the question on what kind of finishing(s) are on the MUSES series - My MUSES01 come from ASUS (which uses a ton of them in their Xonar Essence series of DAC) so authenticity is also guaranteed. That can only lead to one conclusion that MUSES does have different kind of finishing and it doesn't automatically means fake if they don't look identical to another's MUSES.
> 
> Well, all add to the mystery of the MUSES...


 
 what if elekit is telling lie?


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

doki81 said:


> what if elekit is telling lie?




No frigging way


----------



## ClieOS

doki81 said:


> what if elekit is telling lie?


 
  
 Being one of the well known DIY amp kit maker in the audio world and famous for their educational electronics kits, they have no need to lie. They have been around longer than Head-fi and their audio related products ain't even their core business. In short, they are just a very well respected business in Japan.


----------



## jamato8

So "if" a person does have a question about their 1 or 2 Muse, it is down to either sound, or X-ray. I guess buy from a reputable source, which normally makes sense anyway.


----------



## razorblader

jamato8 said:


> So "if" a person does have a question about their 1 or 2 Muse, it is down to either sound, or X-ray. I guess buy from a reputable source, which normally makes sense anyway.


 

 Amen.


----------



## nasudaijin

clieos said:


> Just got some words back from Elekit. The MUSES02 they sent to me is either from eleshop.jp or akizukidenshi.com. They ordered only from either of those places but can't remember which is where mine come from. So the MUSES02 is definitely genuine, and that raises the question on what kind of finishing(s) are on the MUSES series - My MUSES01 come from ASUS (which uses a ton of them in their Xonar Essence series of DAC) so authenticity is also guaranteed. That can only lead to one conclusion that MUSES does have different kind of finishing and it doesn't automatically means fake if they don't look identical to another's MUSES.
> 
> Well, all add to the mystery of the MUSES...


 
  
 Are you sure you bought your item directly from Elekit?
 Which product did you buy exactly?
 I can't find any product with MUSES02.
  
 This is a part of the picture you uploaded.
  

  
 If you still believe that your MUSES02s are legit seeing this obvious difference,
 I have nothing to say. I don't think I can convince you.
  
 I'm gonna summarize how to spot fake MUSES op amps for those who are interested.
  
 1. Take a good close-up picture and see if all surfaces except the circle dent
 have the same texture and if the top surface and the sides with leads make
 clean arcs. If there are sharp edges around the top surface and the texture
 of the top surface looks different, it is 99.99% fake.
  

 2. Compare the shape of the logo and the letters on the one in question
 with the official logo and authentic pictures.
 (eleshop.jp has good close-up pictures.)
 Is the woman looking up?
 Does the back of the head look vertical?
 Do the sides of "0" look vertical?
 Do the three horizontal strokes of "E" have the same length?
 Does "8820" or "8920" look bigger than the lot number below?
  

  
 3. Prepare a decent multimeter and measure resistances between these pins
 of the one in question then compare the values with those of legit NJM4580.
  
 a) between 3->4
 b) between 5->4
 c) between 6->4
 d) between 8->4
  
 "->" means one way, i.e. red->black or black->red depending on multimeters.
 All four should read tens of mega ohms.
 a, b, and c read a similar value and d read a lower value than the others.
 I can't give you specific values because the values are too high and they vary
 significantly depending on which multimeter you use.
 If your MUSES8820 or MUSES02 is legit, it shows lower values than NJM4580.
 If you can't find any significant difference between the one in question and NJM4580,
 I think the one in question is actually NJM4580.
  
 Note that NJM4580, MUSES8820, and MUSES02 have an identical circuit internally
 and sound almost identical. You need good audio equipment to tell the difference.
  
 If someone made fake MUSES02s out of legit MUSES8820s, (I highly doubt that, though)
 the method 3 doesn't work, so rely on the method 1 and 2, or check how soft the leads are.
  
 I hope this helps.


----------



## ClieOS

nasudaijin said:


> Are you sure you bought your item directly from Elekit?
> Which product did you buy exactly?
> I can't find any product with MUSES02.
> ...


 
  
 Yes, Elekit sent it to me directly, as part of the review I did for them on the HP-TU01. No, it is not part of the original TU-HP01 packaging, which comes with MUSES8820 and OPA2604 only. The reason they sent me the extra MUSES02 is because they have learned from their local user's feedback (by our own mod AnakChan, I believe) that MUSES02 is an really good pairing with the TU-HP01, so they decided to include it into my review unit. It is not one of their regularly stocked opamp, so they source it from one of the two places mentioned, which are their usual go-to places. That's what they told me. I didn't ask them to give me more detail as it is really not needed. They have a business to run and I don't want to waste their time for my own entertainment. As long as the source(s) of the IC is legit (which both places are), then there is no reason to question the authenticity of the chip, unless the question is whether eleshop or akizukidenshi is selling fake themselves.
  


> Originally Posted by *nasudaijin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Note that NJM4580, MUSES8820, and MUSES02 have an* identical circuit internally*
> and sound almost identical. You need good audio equipment to tell the difference.


 
  
 I do like to know what do you based your finding on?
  
 There is also the question of whether we can be 100% sure each and every batch of the MUSES look identical to each other with the same finishing, but I guess JRC will be better fit to answer that question. I did email them a few days ago, but so far they have not replied. My guess is they probably won't going to reply to an individual's query.


----------



## nasudaijin

clieos said:


> I do like to know what do you based your finding on?


 
  
 I've read an article on some issue of this magazine,
 http://toragi.cqpub.co.jp
 but I can't remember the exact words and which issue the article was on
 so I'm not 100% sure.
 They may not be 100% identical but I'm sure both 8820 and 02 are
 developed based on NJM4580.


----------



## ClieOS

nasudaijin said:


> They may not be 100% identical but I'm sure both 8820 and 02 are
> developed based on NJM4580.


 
  
 Won't be surprised if JRC borrows some circuit design from the past, though I won't go as far as to say they are identical based on difference in the datasheet. 8820 and 02 are however near identical, which suggests 02 is just 8820 with better tolerance / rating. Also not surprising as many chip makers have the same habit of naming a better rated part with different name and sold for higher price.


----------



## hkfriends

nasudaijin said:


> Are you sure you bought your item directly from Elekit?
> Which product did you buy exactly?
> I can't find any product with MUSES02.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks buddy... I am surely got a fake 02
  
 I will take a side by side picture once got the shippment from akizukidenshi
  
 if i compare my fake 02 with eleshop.jp's pic. it is obviously can compared by human eyes
 1. lower jaw of the lady is too long
 2. "0"2, the zero font face is too fat
 3. the edge of the IC is not smooth+round


----------



## earfonia

nasudaijin said:


> Are you sure you bought your item directly from Elekit?
> Which product did you buy exactly?
> I can't find any product with MUSES02.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a lot!
 Excellent observation!
 I bookmarked your post


----------



## Loquah

Picked up my DIY today and initial impressions are really good.
  
 I'm wondering if anyone can confirm something for me in relation to the provided buffers. So far I like the OPA1611 as the op-amp, but I'm torn between the LM49600 and LMH6321 as the buffer. It sounds like the LMH6321 is better on my T1s, but the LM49600 is better on low impedance IEMs. The specs would suggest that this is the case, too. Does anyone know if the LMH49600 will be a problem if used with low impedance IEMs (i.e. 15.9 ohms)?
  
 Also, has anyone found a buffer that's great with a wide range of impedances?


----------



## earfonia

loquah said:


> Picked up my DIY today and initial impressions are really good.
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone can confirm something for me in relation to the provided buffers. So far I like the OPA1611 as the op-amp, but I'm torn between the LM49600 and LMH6321 as the buffer. It sounds like the LMH6321 is better on my T1s, but the LM49600 is better on low impedance IEMs. The specs would suggest that this is the case, too. Does anyone know if the LMH49600 will be a problem if used with low impedance IEMs (i.e. 15.9 ohms)?
> 
> Also, has anyone found a buffer that's great with a wide range of impedances?


 
  
 I've been using LME49600 with some low impedance headphones and IEM, so far no problem.  From the 3 buffers come with Fiio E12DIY, LME49600 is my favorite so far.  BUF634 is actually very2 close with LME49600.
 LMH6321 has very poor dynamic and detail with low impedance, sounds very lazy.


----------



## Loquah

earfonia said:


> I've been using LME49600 with some low impedance headphones and IEM, so far no problem.  From the 3 buffers come with Fiio E12DIY, LME49600 is my favorite so far.  BUF634 is actually very2 close with LME49600.
> LMH6321 has very poor dynamic and detail with low impedance, sounds very lazy.




Cool. Thanks! I just realised I wrote LMH49600 instead of LMH6321. What you hear with LMH6321 confirms my suspicion that it performs well with high impedance, but poorly with low impedance.


----------



## Loquah

I've just been comparing the DIY with the Tralucent T1 and the T1 still wins in terms of bass weight and layering of details.

Unfortunately the T1's op-amps have all been obscured. I'm wondering if they're OPA627s based on the slightly warm, but detailed sound. Any ideas? I'd love to recreate the soothing, but detailed signature in the DIY.


----------



## earfonia

loquah said:


> I've just been comparing the DIY with the Tralucent T1 and the T1 still wins in terms of bass weight and layering of details.
> 
> Unfortunately the T1's op-amps have all been obscured. I'm wondering if they're OPA627s based on the slightly warm, but detailed sound. Any ideas? I'd love to recreate the soothing, but detailed signature in the DIY.


 
  
AD8599


----------



## Loquah

I'm intrigued as to how you found that out!

Thank you!


----------



## jamato8

Who has tried the AD 8397?
  
 Leaving the case open, it would be interesting to try my one pair or 1984 very rare NE5534 S that are bypassed. These are old op amps but the pins are a copper base and somehow they did things internally that surpasses any other 5534.


----------



## ClieOS

I have the AD8397 but haven't tried it on E12DIY yet. Would be a waste for its high current output and I learn from experience that it is a hard-to-please opamp when it comes to circuit optimization, so I have been skipping it so far and save it for later listening.


----------



## jamato8

Well you don't know how it sounds in this circuit until tried. I would use it and bypass the buffers.


----------



## ClieOS

jamato8 said:


> Well you don't know how it sounds in this circuit until tried. I would use it and bypass the buffers.


 
  
 True, But I have listened to 4~5 implements of AD8397 and only one of them gets it right, so my level of expectation isn't really that high, especially since E12DIY isn't optimized for it in the first place. Of course it might turn out to be great as well, I'll give it a listen tonight.
  
 Bypassing is a good idea. It probably is fine, but I'll check with FiiO about it just to be extra safe.


----------



## Loquah

Can anyone tell me how the provided capacitors and resistors (for bandwidth) would affect the sound (ie how it would sound different)?


----------



## ClieOS

Okay, my BrownDog order finally came in this morning.
  





 From left: BrownDog SOIC-to-DIP, HA-5002 adapter x2, eBay adapter and DIP8 chip for reference.
  
 Did you see the problem? Yes, the HA-5002 is way too tall. It is designed for two HA-5002 parallel soldered on both sides (to double the output, if wanted), so it is 50% taller than a regular BrownDog.
  
  




 Even without the IC soldered on it, the HA-5002 adapter itself is already as tall as a DIP8. With the HA-5002 soldered on the top side, it will never fit inside the E12DIY.
  
  




 So what is the solution? Well, solder the IC on the back side of course, since it is parallel to the top side it won't cause any issue. The pins also need a little trimming, around 0.5mm to 1mm. See the trimmed pin on the empty adapter as reference.
  
  





 
 All and all, the mod should leave you just enough room for the HA-5002 to fit in. Do note that you need to put some insulating tape over the top side of the adapter to avoid shorting the adapter if it ever comes into contact with the case.
  
 After all the work, my impression on the HA-5002 is actually pretty mixed. It is clean for sure, but almost too clean and in fact a bit lean. It makes even the very well textured MUSES01 sounds lean, which isn't a good thing. It also has a little bit too much DC offset with OPA627, but it is fine with a few other opamps I tried. So it isn't really a drop-and-forget kind of buffer. You need to measure the DC offset to be sure it is behaving well with the particular opamp you are using. But not everything is bad on the HA-5002. On some occasion I thought it sounds quite good with AD8620, so it isn't a complete lost. Anyway, it is a bit too troublesome to find the right pairing for it so my advise is, avoid it unless you are the adventurous type. It is just too much work without guaranteed reward.
  
 Also tried the AD8397 - not bad actually. It didn't wow me but it didn't fail me either. Overall a decent all arounder.


----------



## jamato8

Let the 5002 burn in some. Just like any circuit, it needs time to settle. Have used it on and off for years with no problems on offset.


----------



## ClieOS

I believe in headphone burn in, but not so much on solid state burn-in, unless it is thermo stability or degradation related. I will keep experimenting with them of course. No point to have but not use them, but it will take some major change to convince me, I think.
  
 Forgot to mention two other things: HA-5002 does get a bit hot when used with low impedance load, similar to that of LMH6321. Like LHM6321, I'll advice against using it with very low impedance load just to be safe. Also observed heat issue with AD8397. Given the +/-11V supply is pretty close to AD8397 recommended +/-12V limit, I guess it is expectable.


----------



## jamato8

The 5002 runs hotter than the buf634. Never found it to be a problem. Yes, we all can agree to disagree on burn-in. I remember back in the early 90's when I worked with Cary Audio on some products that Dennis said he always heard burn in and expected a 100 to 200 hours burn in period and mentioned 100 hours always on his gear but didn't care to debate it with people. Audio Note UK also but they go for longer periods.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> I believe in headphone burn in, but not so much on solid state burn-in, unless it is thermo stability or degradation related. I will keep experimenting with them of course. No point to have but not use them, but it will take some major change to convince me, I think.
> 
> Forgot to mention two other things: HA-5002 does get a bit hot when used with low impedance load, similar to that of LMH6321. Like LHM6321, I'll advice against using it with very low impedance load just to be safe. Also observed heat issue with AD8397. Given the +/-11V supply is pretty close to AD8397 recommended +/-12V limit, I guess it is expectable.


 
  
 Wow excellent job indeed on the HA-5002!  Thanks for sharing the impression of HA-5002!
 Just wondering, why you choose the SOIC-8 type for the HA-5002 and not the DIP-8 ?
  
 As for burn-in, being DIY enthusiast myself, I'm not a fan of burn-in... and I generally believe we don't need burn-in for solid state.
 But I just would to share my experience with Fiio X3.  Out of the box, I was a bit disappointed as I found the treble was a bit harsh and too bright to my liking.  Playing Susan Wong albums, I had to reduced the treble by 3 stops.
 Not really satisfied with the sound, I decided to try with burn-in the player.
 After around 24 hours burn-in, I no longer need to reduce the treble, 0 adjustment on treble just sounds right with the same songs and album.. same IEM.
 Now after using X3 for a few months, I feel it sounds rather dark.... 
 Well, that's just my experience with X3, not necessary applicable with other equipment 
 I still prefer equipment to sound good out of the box, burn-in to me is just troublesome process and a waste of time... but sometime necessary...


----------



## ClieOS

earfonia said:


> Wow excellent job indeed on the HA-5002!  Thanks for sharing the impression of HA-5002!
> Just wondering, why you choose the SOIC-8 type for the HA-5002 and not the DIP-8 ?


 
  
 The quick answer is, well, HA-5002 doesn't have DIP8 version. It is either SOIC, PLCC or metal can. Even if there was an DIP8 version, the pins out aren't compatible with regular buffer anyway so it still won't fit the E12DIY. SOIC with the special BrownDog adapter is the only way to go.


----------



## earfonia

Well, i have around 8 or 9 HA-5002 in DIP-8 version  
It does come in DIP-8 version, Farnell has it.
If you search PPA Project by Tangent and team, they used the DIP-8 version of HA-5002.


----------



## ClieOS

earfonia said:


> Well, i have around 8 or 9 HA-5002 in DIP-8 version
> It does come in DIP-8 version, Farnell has it.
> If you search PPA Project by Tangent and team, they used the DIP-8 version of HA-5002.


 
  
 I believe the DIP8 version has been discontinued awhile back (Intersil no longer lists it as active part), though there might still be some NOS around. Still, as I save said, the pin out is different from all the common buffer we used in E12DIY and therefore you can't use it directly. Even with an adapter, the height of DIP8 + adapter will exceed the E12DIY casing. In short, it just impossible to use the DIP8 version of HA-5002 on the E12DIY. The only way around is to custom make your own adapter and mount it upsidedown like the stock BUF634 included with E12DIY, but that is really a lot of work when SOIC + adapter is readily available.


----------



## jamato8

Xin made some nice adapters that had thicker traces but of course, his are no longer available but they are lower profile and would have worked.


----------



## ClieOS

Just recall that HiFlight does included pre-mounted SOIC HA-5002 on adapter with his topkit. Those of you who are interested can probably get it from him, though do confirm with him about the height first.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> I believe the DIP8 version has been discontinued awhile back (Intersil no longer lists it as active part), though there might still be some NOS around. Still, as I save said, the pin out is different from all the common buffer we used in E12DIY and therefore you can't use it directly. Even with an adapter, the height of DIP8 + adapter will exceed the E12DIY casing. In short, it just impossible to use the DIP8 version of HA-5002 on the E12DIY. The only way around is to custom make your own adapter and mount it upsidedown like the stock BUF634 included with E12DIY, but that is really a lot of work when SOIC + adapter is readily available.


 
  
 Yes, you're right, pins are different.  So SOIC-8 + adapter is the only way.


----------



## akash neagi

I was hoping to buy one of these but i had a few questions first...
 I'm a beginner at circuitry and am a first year student studying EEE...
 Do I need any soldering skill to use just the given buffers and op-amps???
 Did anyone find any good setup for the momentum, hd518 or xba-3 yet???


----------



## Loquah

No need for soldering skills. You'd only need to solder if you decide to use other chips not provided with the DIY.

As for setups, I think the general consensus is that the LME46900 + OPA1611 combo is nice, but that's from memory so others might correct me. Either way, all setups I've tried sound good and it's fun to switch it around to find what you like.


----------



## jamato8

I will have one in a day or three. Look forward to the possibilities.


----------



## alflying

Wondering if you guys notice that the E12DIY won't automatically cut off charging once the battery is full?  When I left the unit charging over night, the red light is still on in the morning.
  
 Or is it a faulty unit I received?


----------



## doki81

alflying said:


> Wondering if you guys notice that the E12DIY won't automatically cut off charging once the battery is full?  When I left the unit charging over night, the red light is still on in the morning.
> 
> Or is it a faulty unit I received?


 
 when the red light become stable...it mean it's fully charged..


----------



## alflying

thanks
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 didn't realize the red light was blinking while charging


----------



## CosmicHolyGhost

yeah, it  will automatically turn off charging if I recall... when it is charging, the red light fades in and out..


----------



## alflying

on a side note, I'm happy with the LME46900 + LM4562 combo.  recommended for those who likes a smooth signature with a slight hint of bass boost


----------



## ClieOS

alflying said:


> Wondering if you guys notice that the E12DIY won't automatically cut off charging once the battery is full?  When I left the unit charging over night, the red light is still on in the morning.
> 
> *Or is it a faulty unit I received?*


 
  
 No, it is completely normal. The red LED flashes when charging. Once the charging is completed, it will stop flashing and stays on. Don't worry as it does have over-charge and over-discharge protection built-in.
  
  
 On a unrelated note, Just received email that my akizukidenshi.com's JRC order has been shipped out by EMS Japan. Hopefully will see it in a week.


----------



## earfonia

akash neagi said:


> Did anyone find any good setup for the momentum, hd518 or xba-3 yet???


 
  
 For Momentum I think AD797 + LME49600 would be nice.
 So far my favorite combo is AD8599 + LME49600, it even drives my Hifiman HE5-LE gracefully... wow, I'm quite amazed with this little amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 For more warm and intimate sound, OPA604 + LME49600 would be my choice.


----------



## doki81

clieos said:


> No, it is completely normal. The red LED flashes when charging. Once the charging is completed, it will stop flashing and stays on. Don't worry as it does have over-charge and over-discharge protection built-in.
> 
> 
> On a unrelated note, Just received email that my akizukidenshi.com's JRC order has been shipped out by EMS Japan. Hopefully will see it in a week.


 
 mine is delivering by speedpost but they choose to deliver on saturday which my office is close..hope they re-deliver by tomorrow..
  
 cant wait..


----------



## doki81

finally my original muses01 and 02 is here.....gonna give it a try later..
  

  

  
 initial pairing for original muses01...best pair with buf 634..i try to pair it with LME49600 but find it a bit muddy...
  
 Muses01 + BUF634 give better clarity...ample sound stage too...and quite on a warm side.
  
 more to come..


----------



## jamato8

doki81 said:


> finally my original muses01 and 02 is here.....gonna give it a try later..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I look forward to your impressions.


----------



## doki81

jamato8 said:


> I look forward to your impressions.


 
 give me a few days  will be using buf 634 with muses01 for the time being as i have few earphone need to go thru  but i really impress that buf634 pair well with muses01 than LME49600...


----------



## hkfriends

doki81 said:


> finally my original muses01 and 02 is here.....gonna give it a try later..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 any different from the fake one (outlook)?
  
 mine had been delivered, but I don't have time to pick it up.... this Sat will do


----------



## doki81

hkfriends said:


> any different from the fake one (outlook)?
> 
> mine had been delivered, but I don't have time to pick it up.... this Sat will do


 
 the outlook is different from what we bought from taobao....it's exactly what described by nasudajin...
  
 SQ wise..i cant do a A and B comparison as i dont have another unit of e12diy...only can swap then compare..i havent done that yet as i am enjoying the buf634+muses01....maybe tonight i will change to muses02..


----------



## duyu

doki81 said:


> the outlook is different from what we bought from taobao....it's exactly what described by nasudajin...
> 
> SQ wise..i cant do a A and B comparison as i dont have another unit of e12diy...only can swap then compare..i havent done that yet as i am enjoying the buf634+muses01....maybe tonight i will change to muses02..


 
  
 Could you take some close-up photos of the real and the fake? Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

Hopefully mine will come tomorrow, if not the day after.


----------



## doki81

duyu said:


> Could you take some close-up photos of the real and the fake? Thanks!


 
 as per your request..has been trying very hard to do the macro shot  you may click on each picture to have a closer view..
  
 left is the taobao muses02 (fake) and right is the akizuden muses02 (authentic)
  

  

  
 left is ori..right is fake..you will notice the top edge of the opamp for ori is more rounded just like what @nasudaijin has described previously..

  
  
 left is fake....right is ori..again..look at the edge..top edge..
  

  hope this help....damn..now feel like making a report to taobao on this seller selling fake muses ...but they can always deny and say this is the batch issue~..sigh..


----------



## jamato8

One looks like the surface has been sanded down and then printing done. Reprinted.


----------



## duyu

>


 
 Thanks for taking these photos. It seems that the difference is most obvious on the printing.
 The colors are different, and the shape of that lady head is also very different.
  
 Thanks again!


----------



## doki81

duyu said:


> Thanks for taking these photos. It seems that the difference is most obvious on the printing.
> The colors are different, and the shape of that lady head is also very different.
> 
> Thanks again!


 
 sigh, i am now going to fill a refund from the taobao seller who sold me the fake muses....hopefully can get refund.


----------



## duyu

doki81 said:


> sigh, i am now going to fill a refund from the taobao seller who sold me the fake muses....hopefully can get refund.


 
 The sellers all claim that they will refund 10 times back to you if their products are fake. But ridiculously they will never confess their products are fake.
 I think you should be able to get a refund from taobao, show them these photos.
  
 It seems there is no way to buy cheap Muses then...


----------



## doki81

duyu said:


> The sellers all claim that they will refund 10 times back to you if their products are fake. But ridiculously they will never confess their products are fake.
> I think you should be able to get a refund from taobao, show them these photos.
> 
> It seems there is no way to buy cheap Muses then...


 
 yes, i just managed to claim my refund of muses02 and i will file the muses01 refund tonight..
  
 180rmb for a fake muses is really not worth it..


----------



## jamato8

You can tell the counterfeit one has a sanded top. 
  
  
 I just got the E12 DIY, very nice out of the box. Now to let it burn in. Very good clean sound. The form should work with a lot of daps.


----------



## doki81

jamato8 said:


> You can tell the counterfeit one has a sanded top.
> 
> 
> I just got the E12 DIY, very nice out of the box. Now to let it burn in. Very good clean sound. The form should work with a lot of daps.


 
 sigh..lesson learnt...fortunately i am able to get full refund for both the fake muses01 and 02...


----------



## j0ewhite

doki81, can you confirm the one with the more rounded circled part is the fake one?


----------



## doki81

j0ewhite said:


> doki81, can you confirm the one with the more rounded circled part is the fake one?


 
 yes...you have label correctly


----------



## jamato8

Even without the obvious printing problems, the fake has been sanded smooth. That is so very obvious. Unless, of course, They mislabled the 02 at the factory and did a quick fix. (just kidding). 
  
 --------------------
  
  
 After 16 hours or so, the 12E DIY has opened up very nicely. I have yet to try any thing besides the buffer and op amp it came with. Will have some time off and then will roll. I am looking forward to trying the opa627. I have a special low over and under adapter that will fit. I do like the solid bass and the fact that it does not bleed into the lower miss and that the bass itself, is well defined and has a true bass line. Very good!


----------



## hkfriends

doki81 said:


> yes...you have label correctly


 
  
 Thanks doki81
  
 the fake one is too colorful in printing... I think more ppl get fake in China and thought that it was true...
 then comes up. fake will becomes their genuine.
  
 It is so sad, we will make wrong feeling on MUSES02. I only has time in weekend to receive my genuine MUSES02. I hope it will has a good sound signature.


----------



## K.T.

We must be ultra vigilant. I don't think that it's too hard for the scammers to retool their stamps to make the image look just like the real thing. Once they hear of folks are noticing the difference, I'm sure that will happen.

Maybe the only sure way is to buy from reputable sellers only. I wish such a thing existed in the US.

For those who have tried out OPA627, what are the long term impressions? I've recall hearing the OPA627 pairs well with BUF634. Any observations for or against?

Thanks.


----------



## jamato8

Funny, I just soldered up pair of 627 and am using the buf634. The sound is slightly warmer than the op amp that came in the E12 and as usual, I prefer the sound of the 627. I do not like warm sound but it wasn't totally to my liking before. The combination of the opa627 and the buf634, when the supplies are right, is a very good combination. Good imaging, well rounded bass and a natural soundfield. Works well with my TH900 but I still want more hours on the E12 but the amp drives my favorite phones with ease.


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> For those who have tried out OPA627, what are the long term impressions? *I've recall hearing the OPA627 pairs well with BUF634*. Any observations for or against?


 
  
 Yes, it does. I have been listening OPA627 + BUF634 for the last week and they are indeed a good combination.


----------



## jamato8

Always been one of my favorites since getting the Super Macro III from Xin what seems like years ago now. 
  
 Better focus, depth and sole with the 627, IMO. Driving the TH900 well. I am using all Whiplash gold plated IC's and cable for the phones and the combination with the E12 DIY is very fine.
  
 The 12E diy is really opening up now. Very nice! Layering is happing, which I wasn't getting before and excellent transient response. The Allman Brothers Band, An Evening With the Allman Brothers, has all the drive and speed you could ask for. Very good delivery.


----------



## jamato8

I got some 8599 op amps and soldered them to the adapter board . Read good things about them. So it sounds a little thin and anemic, not good at all. Hopefully with a bit of run in it will sound more cohesive otherwise this isn't an opamp for me in this amp. The opa627 sound very good. 
  
 see second post down. . . lol


----------



## Chefano

Would be nice If we had a google spreadsheet with the combination of the opamp + buffer and the  impression about it. 
 What do you think?


----------



## jamato8

The AD8599 is sounding better now. You have to have the IC plugged in alllll the way. lol So the hollow and anemic sound. . . Stuff happens. :^)


----------



## Loquah

I received a bunch of chips yesterday including AD8599, AD8066, OPA2107, LM4562 and others I can't recall. Have nearly finished burning in and will then complete a full comparison with each op amp and buffer combo (incl. the op amps that came with the DIY). Happy to share the sheet for others to add to once it's done. Or, if anyone beats me to it, happy to share my notes for addition to your work.


----------



## jamato8

The AD8599 is a little warm and unexciting. A little flat for my liking. I prefer the opa627 as it is more dynamic and there is a better contrast between instruments, voice and transparency. The opa627 also produces a larger soundstage and one that is more layered.


----------



## Chefano

jamato8 said:


> The AD8599 is a little warm and unexciting. A little flat for my liking. I prefer the opa627 as it is more dynamic and there is a better contrast between instruments, voice and transparency. The opa627 also produces a larger soundstage and one that is more layered.


 
 Jamato, have you had the opportunity to compare the Muses against the opa627?
 Regards


----------



## jamato8

chefano said:


> Jamato, have you had the opportunity to compare the Muses against the opa627?
> Regards


 
 Not yet. I need to get a couple of the Muses. Should be getting some soon. I will say that I have gone back to the 627 and notice improvement in all areas to the 8599 but the 8599 is a very nice op amp and in no way, not enjoyable to have in the musical chain. 
  
 I think the E12 DIY hits way above its price but then James did say he isn't making anything on the amp so I would guess it would sell for 300 or so and still it would be in the 5 or 6 hundred dollar sound bracket.


----------



## laughingbuddha

Just wondered how it's possible to change the op-amps without moding the circuitry to match ?


----------



## ClieOS

laughingbuddha said:


> Just wondered how it's possible to change the op-amps without moding the circuitry to match ?


 
  
 Which means some opamp will not sound better than other opamp in the same circuit, while a few just won't work, and why you need to try different opamp to find out which is better. All part of the fun. But most opamp (at least for those commonly used for audio) can run quite well in a simple cmoy style circuit. In fact, that's what you will find on many portable amps out there. Even some of the really expensive one is no more than a cmoy with better power supply section.


----------



## jamato8

That is why I love tubes. You can truly optimize the circuit for a particular tube. The D76 RCA sounds best at max mA bias. They don't last as long but are the most dynamic and transparent. And so it goes.


----------



## Chefano

Ive ordered the muses from the Japanese retailer (http://akizukidenshi.com/)  thanks nasudajin, lets wait!
 How about the buffers? Have you tested something better that the stock ones?
  
  
 Reagrds!


----------



## Loquah

You're all costing me money!!
  
 I haven't gone as far as Muses yet, but I've just ordered a bunch of 627s for my various amps.


----------



## ClieOS

The other two buffers option are LT1010 and HA-5002 (which require special adapter). LT1010 is less powerful than the stock but also has less coloration overall. HA-5002 is very clean and transparent but it has to be mounted on special adapter as it isn't pin compatible to the BUF socket in E12DIY and you need to be careful when using it since it doesn't have any short circuit protection (meaning you need to stop the music from playing before unplugging your headphone or turn the amp off), or else you might damage the chip accidentally if the volume is loud and the short is over 2 seconds.


----------



## jamato8

I have used the HA5002 for years and never turned the amp on or off while plugging or unplugging the headphones and have not heard of anyone having any problems. I am not trying to contradict you but I just have not seen the problem and have used them for 9 years. 
  
 I am using the 5002 in the E12 DIY right now.


----------



## ClieOS

Well, I am just trying to be careful as there is a real possibility there due to the lack of short circuit protection. That's why it is called accident.


----------



## Chefano

I just start modding mine. Had some blackgates PK inside a box, why not?

  
 Just giving them a nice first burn. Then I will change the resistors and increase the Bandwidth and see what happens




 Pleasee, when modding.. disconnect the battery and the buffers/opamps FIRST!


----------



## jamato8

I have 2 boxes of Black Gates, will have to see which ones to try. 
  
 The HA5002 are sounding very clean, as usual. Working well in the E12 DIY.


----------



## Chefano

jamato8 said:


> I have 2 boxes of Black Gates, will have to see which ones to try.
> 
> The HA5002 are sounding very clean, as usual. Working well in the E12 DIY.


 
  Its a really good improvement to change the opamp psu caps (ohhh the bass is muuuch better!) after 100hs I will add some ceramic in parallel.
  
 I will order the HA5002 and the adapters =D, lets check how it sounds with the muses!


----------



## jamato8

The Brown Dog don't get you low enough with the standard pins because they allow for a 5002 to be soldered under the board as well so you can run two buffers per channel at a time. The legs have a step on them so the pins would have to be heated and pushed up so the step is even with the bottom of the board. Now the board will mount flush with the socket and you can close the case. I have some very rare Xin 5002 adapters that have thicker traces and the pins have no shoulder, so they allow the adapter to go down flat to the socket. I have the Brown Dog also, since I got them to make these up but they wanted to make it so one board could be used for 1 or 2 buffers, which was my suggestion but in this case, there is too much standoff for the E12.


----------



## Chefano

jamato8 said:


> The Brown Dog don't get you low enough with the standard pins because they allow for a 5002 to be soldered under the board as well so you can run two buffers per channel at a time. The legs have a step on them so the pins would have to be heated and pushed up so the step is even with the bottom of the board. Now the board will mount flush with the socket and you can close the case. I have some very rare Xin 5002 adapters that have thicker traces and the pins have no shoulder, so they allow the adapter to go down flat to the socket. I have the Brown Dog also, since I got them to make these up but they wanted to make it so one board could be used for 1 or 2 buffers, which was my suggestion but in this case, there is too much standoff for the E12.


 
 Thanks for the help Jamato. Ive already ordered the browndog without the pins installed (I think Im luck).


----------



## jamato8

chefano said:


> Its a really good improvement to change the opamp psu caps (ohhh the bass is muuuch better!) after 100hs I will add some ceramic in parallel.
> 
> I will order the HA5002 and the adapters =D, lets check how it sounds with the muses!


 
 In general, Black Gates do better bypassed with BG's. The sound can get a little skewed with other capacitors, even really good ones. A .47 NPX 50V Black Gate would be good. 
  
 I also want to just let my E12 DIY burn in more as I still hear changes and the changes, in comparison to two other amps to confirm it is not in my head and so on and so forth, are positive so I want to know where the more-or-less stock amp ends up. I have also noted that Black Gates can take hundreds of hours to truly "form". This has also been noted by Audio Note UK, as they allow for many hundreds of hours before assuming the sound is final. They also feel BG's should have a charge to them all the time in order to stay formed or they will require some reforming again, and I have also noted this change. 
  
 I think I like the buf634 better. A little warmer, not warm but to me, the 5002 is very neutral but not as musical in this case.


----------



## Chefano

jamato8 said:


> In general, Black Gates do better bypassed with BG's. The sound can get a little skewed with other capacitors, even really good ones. A .47 NPX 50V Black Gate would be good.
> 
> I also want to just let my E12 DIY burn in more as I still hear changes and the changes, in comparison to two other amps to confirm it is not in my head and so on and so forth, are positive so I want to know where the more-or-less stock amp ends up. I have also noted that Black Gates can take hundreds of hours to truly "form". This has also been noted by Audio Note UK, as they allow for many hundreds of hours before assuming the sound is final. They also feel BG's should have a charge to them all the time in order to stay formed or they will require some reforming again, and I have also noted this change.
> 
> I think I like the buf634 better. A little warmer, not warm but to me, the 5002 is very neutral but not as musical in this case.


 
 I don't have a BG that low 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I don't know why, but to my ears prefer the LME49600 over the BUF. Sometimes the BUF seems to be harsh in the treble end.. don't know.
  
 I really like this amp, and the muses/opa627 and did not arrived yet. I think it will be my mobile amp setup =D


----------



## jamato8

The opa627 are some of the best and have been for years, IMO. I like the combo of the buf634 and opa627.


----------



## Loquah

chefano said:


> I just start modding mine. Had some blackgates PK inside a box, why not?
> 
> 
> Just giving them a nice first burn. Then I will change the resistors and increase the Bandwidth and see what happens
> ...


 
  
 So will replacing the stock, red caps with the other caps provided improve the sound of the DIY?


----------



## Chefano

loquah said:


> So will replacing the stock, red caps with the other caps provided improve the sound of the DIY?


 
 The replace caps are Elna Tonerex, the entry line of ELNA. So I really don't know how would sound against the VIMA's (the red ones) 
 Do you have any experience on desoldering/soldering? If yes, I would highly advise you to try =D
 If not, get some experience on another circuits. As I could see, the E12DY pads (where you solder) are really delicate, so the soldering iron tip would easily destroy them.
  
 If you ask me.. how about Elna Silmic II .. Then would be a yes


----------



## jamato8

Yes, some traces can lift easily and then you have to do a wire jump and it can get messy.


----------



## yang2910

Hi, I see that a if you wanna install the Muses, you might need to sand down the case? actually myself dont have the confident to do this here, coz the cases have no spare parts also  is it still possible to use Muse with it? Maybe just need to close a little bit more tightly?


----------



## doki81

yang2910 said:


> Hi, I see that a if you wanna install the Muses, you might need to sand down the case? actually myself dont have the confident to do this here, coz the cases have no spare parts also  is it still possible to use Muse with it? Maybe just need to close a little bit more tightly?


 
 you might risk spoilt the pcb board of the e12diy if you didnt sand/file it...


----------



## ClieOS

yang2910 said:


> Hi, I see that a if you wanna install the Muses, you might need to sand down the case? actually myself dont have the confident to do this here, coz the cases have no spare parts also  is it still possible to use Muse with it? Maybe just need to close a little bit more tightly?


 
  
 If your case can accommodate it without any problem, you are the lucky few. If indeed it can't close with an DIP8 opamp (i.e. MUSES), then sanding is the only way to go. DO NOT try to force it in by bending the PCB, or else something will break sooner or later. If you don't have the confident to use a rotary tool to sand it down, then use a small file with manual labour. Since you are sanding the inside of the case at a very slow pace, even a very poor job will only result in rough surface that you won't notice from the outside, so it is almost 100% foolproof. The only real downside is that it will require a lot of elbow grease


----------



## hkfriends

Got my MUSES02 from Japan, from the outlook you can spot the different... the sound signature AB test is very close, but the genuine one is more clear in detail


----------



## K.T.

jamato8 said:


> I have 2 boxes of Black Gates, will have to see which ones to try.
> 
> The HA5002 are sounding very clean, as usual. Working well in the E12 DIY.


 
  
  
 Wow, things are getting serious. Please let us know how the BGs sound. Have they been discontinued? I used to get them when I could find the right values, but that was a few years ago just before rumors that Black Gates were ceasing production.
  
 I would be happy if they are still being made. Sadly, sometime the really good components go out of production. I'm still lamenting the loss of the Shinkoh tantalum resistors.


----------



## jamato8

k.t. said:


> Wow, things are getting serious. Please let us know how the BGs sound. Have they been discontinued? I used to get them when I could find the right values, but that was a few years ago just before rumors that Black Gates were ceasing production.
> 
> I would be happy if they are still being made. Sadly, sometime the really good components go out of production. I'm still lamenting the loss of the Shinkoh tantalum resistors.


 
 Ah, the tants. I have the good ones in my fi.Q. Yes, sad their passing as the Audio Note UK ones use ferrous metal end caps, no good with that. Yes BG's went out 5 or more years ago (the owner of the patent reusing to allow anyone to bring them back - his wife died and he went into depression). I built up a stock while they were still on sale, not knowing for sure they were going out. Now it is said that electrolytics will dry out but I have never had a problem with even my oldest Black Gates. Yes, sad their passing. Nothing has equalled them. I also have the high voltage higher uF caps for tube amps in NOS.


----------



## ClieOS

I have a few BlackGate NX Hi-Q left from some LOD project which actually I don't find to be great (though not bad either). Doesn't really matter anyway as they don't have high enough rating as power caps. Thought I will go with Silmic II this time. Some other options that crossed my mind are Panasonic FC and Nichicon Muse. Well, those are the popular choice anyway..Maybe soldering some socket in for caps rolling as well?


----------



## Chefano

clieos said:


> I have a few BlackGate NX Hi-Q left from some LOD project which actually I don't find to be great (though not bad either). Doesn't really matter anyway as they don't have high enough rating as power caps. Thought I will go with Silmic II this time. Some other options that crossed my mind are Panasonic FC and Nichicon Muse. Well, those are the popular choice anyway..Maybe soldering some socket in for caps rolling as well?


 
 Im sorry but Muse's lead (KZ) won't pass through the holes (I've tried).
 The socket idea is a really good idea.  Talking about sockets, My next mod, all the sockets are going to be replaced by SIL pins. All the solids will be replaced as we'll =D


----------



## jamato8

There are pins that work with op amps that would make the stand-off of the op amp in the E12 DIY so low that you could use DIP op amps. I have some and may desolder the socket, if the mood hits me. They can also be used for individual sockets that would work for caps but I don't like a lot of push type sockets in the way of a cap, I prefer hard wired but it is worth a try. On Black Gates, the only thing that gave them a bad name was that people, including myself at times, did not let them run in long enough. They take a long time to form. 
  
 I agree with ClieOS, the Silmic II, FC and Muse would be a nice caps to try. I can't think of any others myself right now.


----------



## goldkenn

What value of the opamp psu caps you guys using? Since I can't find any good caps valued at 100uF 16V could fit in, I am wondering any of you actually not using a 100uF 16V value?


----------



## ClieOS

goldkenn said:


> What value of the opamp psu caps you guys using? Since I can't find any good caps valued at 100uF 16V could fit in, I am wondering any of you actually not using a 100uF 16V value?


 
  
 Do you mean the two big red Wima caps for opamp or the Fuhjyyu's RVT caps for the supply line? I am only planning to tinker with the opamp caps myself. Desoldering SMD caps is a bit too much for me.


----------



## jamato8

I am hearing good things with the board left stock. I agree desoldering the SMD caps. Although I have done it many time, if you lift the trace and mess it up then you have a can of worms and have to start making jumpers. The two red Wimas don't present the same problem but you still want to be careful. I have worked on some gear that had really think traces and they held up to many changes but some traces do not.


----------



## Loquah

jamato8 said:


> I am hearing good things with the board left stock. I agree desoldering the SMD caps. Although I have done it many time, if you lift the trace and mess it up then you have a can of worms and have to start making jumpers. The two red Wimas don't present the same problem but you still want to be careful. I have worked on some gear that had really think traces and they held up to many changes but some traces do not.


 
  
 I'm relatively new to circuit boards (other than the relatively robust ones used in the Bottlehead kits) so I'm reluctant to replace the Wima caps unless I know it's going to be a good upgrade. Has anyone tried replacing them with the provided caps or can anyone tell me what I might expect?
  
 I'm happy to do it once I know it's worthwhile, but I don't want to do it and then have to undo it because that will mean more soldering and more chances of causing damage. I'm probably being overly cautious, but I really like this amp and would prefer not to "overdo it" and risk damage.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> I'm relatively new to circuit boards (other than the relatively robust ones used in the Bottlehead kits) so I'm reluctant to replace the Wima caps unless I know it's going to be a good upgrade. Has anyone tried replacing them with the provided caps or can anyone tell me what I might expect?
> 
> I'm happy to do it once I know it's worthwhile, but I don't want to do it and then have to undo it because that will mean more soldering and more chances of causing damage. I'm probably being overly cautious, but I really like this amp and would prefer not to "overdo it" and risk damage.


 
  
 'Worthwhile' might be less precise a way to determine as some opamp benefit more from bigger caps while some benefit less. The way I see it, just a little overdoing is fine, so I am going to use the same rating (as Tonerex) for the Silmic II replacement. The space is limited anyway, so I don't think 100uF can fit inside. 33uF is probably max for most caps as the stock Wima is 7.2mm x 13mm and it is just about to hit the ceiling.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> 'Worthwhile' might be less precise a way to determine as some opamp benefit more from bigger caps while some benefit less. The way I see it, just a little overdoing is fine, so I am going to use the same rating (as Tonerex) for the Silmic II replacement. The space is limited anyway, so I don't think 100uF can fit inside. 33uF is probably max for most caps as the stock Wima is 7.2mm x 13mm and it is just about to hit the ceiling.


 
  
 Sorry. I was unclear. What I meant is, would changing the Wimas for the supplied Elna / Tonerex caps yield much difference? Is it worth the slight risk of damaging the PCB?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Sorry. I was unclear. What I meant is, would changing the Wimas for the supplied Elna / Tonerex caps yield much difference? Is it worth the slight risk of damaging the PCB?


 
  
 The main function with those caps is to provide a reservoir so when the opamp draws power from the supply line, the voltage / current won't drop too fast and cause performance drop or increase noise. Obviously different opamp will have different requirement on how much / how fast power draw and therefore some will benefit more from a bigger reservoir. So there is no one answer to say whether just how much difference it will make, since the result is opamp dependent. You might find one opamp benefit very little from bigger caps but another yield great result. Since most of us do roll opamp, I think a bit more won't hurt, especially since some of the opamp we used are known to be demanding. However, if you are happy the way your E12DIY currently sounds, I think you will be fine leaving the stock alone. Compared to opamp and buffer, I would think caps are more of a minor tweak.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> The main function with those caps is to provide a reservoir so when the opamp draws power from the supply line, the voltage / current won't drop too fast and cause performance drop or increase noise. Obviously different opamp will have different requirement on how much / how fast power draw and therefore some will benefit more from a bigger reservoir. So there is no one answer to say whether just how much difference it will make, since the result is opamp dependent. You might find one opamp benefit very little from bigger caps but another yield great result. Since most of us do roll opamp, I think a bit more won't hurt, especially since some of the opamp we used are known to be demanding. However, if you are happy the way your E12DIY currently sounds, I think you will be fine leaving the stock alone. Compared to opamp and buffer, I would think caps are more of a minor tweak.


 
  
 Thanks for the response - very helpful!!


----------



## goldkenn

clieos said:


> Do you mean the two big red Wima caps for opamp or the Fuhjyyu's RVT caps for the supply line? I am only planning to tinker with the opamp caps myself. Desoldering SMD caps is a bit too much for me.


 
 ~The Fuhjyyu's RVT caps for the supply line, since from post #718 I read "Its a really good improvement to change the opamp psu caps", I though you guys have found something fit inside E12 DIY, for the WIMA caps, which were signal coupling, I already changed to BG NX Hi-Q 47uF 6.3V.


----------



## ClieOS

goldkenn said:


> ~The Fuhjyyu's RVT caps for the supply line, since from post #718 I read "Its a really good improvement to change the opamp psu caps", I though you guys have found something fit inside E12 DIY, for the WIMA caps, which were signal coupling, I already changed to BG NX Hi-Q 47uF 6.3V.


 
  
 You are right. I took some measurement off the Wima pins and indeed they are decoupling caps. In that case I might not replace them with Silmic II after all (though I reckon it still make for a really good choice). Maybe some polypropylene caps instead.


----------



## goldkenn

clieos said:


> You are right. I took some measurement off the Wima pins and indeed they are decoupling caps. In that case I might not replace them with Silmic II after all (though I reckon it still make for a really good choice). Maybe some polypropylene caps instead.


 
  
 As far as I know, no through hole mounting polypropylene caps up to 2.2uF are as small size as Wima, and these Wima are not polypropylene of course, box type through hole 5mm pitch polypropylene caps which small enough to fit inside E12 only up to 0.xxuF value.


----------



## ClieOS

goldkenn said:


> As far as I know, no through hole mounting polypropylene caps up to 2.2uF are as small size as Wima, and these Wima are not polypropylene of course, box type through hole 5mm pitch polypropylene caps which small enough to fit inside E12 only up to 0.xxuF value.


 
  
 What a shame 
  
 BTW, won't 6.3V caps a bit too low when E12DIY is in high gain?


----------



## HK_sends

Hey everyone,
  
 Are there any of these still available for purchase?
  
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 -HK sends


----------



## goldkenn

I don't think so, since it is input coupling caps, most LO source maximum level only at 2V, if you have a source with output level over 6.3V which powerful enough to blow the caps away, your source already powerful enough to blow most headphone away, no need for a HPA.


----------



## goldkenn

hk_sends said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Are there any of these still available for purchase?
> 
> ...


 
 If you are from Hong Kong, check Taobao


----------



## goldkenn

BTW, since I am from HK, I just found some caps from Taobao, which may small enough to replace the Fuhjyyu's RVT caps for the supply line, just not sure if they are genuine and performance, I will give them all a trail after CNY holiday, since now all shops closed, nothing could order..... here they are:
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0k.6846101.1130973605.d4915209.Iiv7DJ&id=10782543168
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0k.6846101.1130973605.d4915209.Iiv7DJ&id=15439882537
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0k.6846101.1130973605.d4915209.Iiv7DJ&id=4078025166


----------



## HK_sends

goldkenn said:


> If you are from Hong Kong, check Taobao


 
 No..."HK" is my nickname.  I'm in the U.S.
  
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 -HK sends


----------



## Shawn71

hk_sends said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Are there any of these still available for purchase?
> 
> ...




you need to pay an extra of JUST $70 from the pre-order price if you buy thru fiio directly not sure about other sellers. As fiio cant offer the same price of those who ordered the preorders and if they entertain so, its not fair from fiio's part to those actually waited and ordered but that additional price will compromise and make them justice
Good that theres a way to get for some thru this channel if that additional cost is not a big deal....


----------



## ClieOS

I really won't trust most Taobao dealer on parts. Most sell fake and some of them don't even know they are selling fake.


----------



## Loquah

If the Wima caps are for the input only, why provide 10uF replacements? Isn't that overkill on the input?


----------



## DefQon

Get Evox Wimas are too lush.


----------



## goldkenn

loquah said:


> If the Wima caps are for the input only, why provide 10uF replacements? Isn't that overkill on the input?


 

 I forget the exact reason, which should be something about bandwidth and impedance, I only remember over 2x years ago most DIYer told when replace a metalized cap with an electrolytic cap should use times bigger then the original value of the metalized cap, or vice versa.


----------



## goldkenn

I think I can figure out if the caps are genuine since I have years of taobao buying experience, everywhere have good and bad seller(s), we always need some technique and experience to figure out, same case as I don't like buying from eBay, especially for vacuum tubes, but personally I will say it is all about communications.


----------



## ClieOS

I think I am going to keep to the original plan for the Silmic II 10uF, but bypass it with a very small 0.01uF Wima PP caps, If I can ever figure out how to fit them all in. If I can't, I might just keep the Silmic II and call it a day.


----------



## jamato8

clieos said:


> I think I am going to keep to the original plan for the Silmic II 10uF, but bypass it with a very small 0.01uF Wima PP caps, If I can ever figure out how to fit them all in. If I can't, I might just keep the Silmic II and call it a day.


 
 I look forward to your impression.


----------



## jamato8

I put a pair of non polar 33uf 16v Black Gates in place of the Wima. The on thing I don't like about Wima is that so many of their caps have steel leads and these are no exception. I think I will solder to the sockets but it is easy to change caps by using the tip of the soldering iron on the top edge of the socket, holding it in place and gently pulling the cap out if I want to replace the caps. A better connection with soldering and with the sockets, the pcb isn't being degraded by eventually pulling it away from the board, as often can happen (much experience with this). 
  
 A little bright at first, now after 1.5 hours, dull. I hope these BG's take long, but they always do. I think I will use another amp and use another dap to burn in this amp as the caps form.


----------



## j0ewhite

Ah crap... from the look of it, I may have received those damn fakes...


----------



## jamato8

Is the one on the left just like the other two? Are the pins softer than a standard op amp or stiff? Where did you get them?


----------



## doki81

j0ewhite said:


> Ah crap... from the look of it, I may have received those damn fakes...



did you bought from the Japan store or taobao?


----------



## jamato8

I received the Muses 01 and 02 today. They are the real deal. Everything matches and these are the softest pins I have every seen. Also too soft. Must be made of copper. Very interesting. Seeing them in person it is easy to see the different in the face of the woman and the flat area on top of the m, I guess it is a m for muses. Those pins though, so soft. Be careful.


----------



## ClieOS

These are what I have for E12DIY so far, including the stock:
  
 OPAMP :
 LME49860, AD8599, ADA4627-1, LME49990, OPA1642, AD825, LT1028, AD744, OPA627, LT1678, LT1469, LT1358, OPA2111, NE5532, LM4562, LME49720, NJM5532, NJM2114, NJM4580, NJM4558, NJM4556, OP270, OP275, OPA2134, OPA2227, OPA604, OPA2604, AD8397, OPA2209, OPA2107, AD8620, AD8066, AD797, OPA1611, MAX9632, MUSES8820, MUSES8920, MUSES01, MUSES02.
  
 Buffer:
 LME49600, BUF634, LT1010, LMH6321, HA-5002.
  
 Probably not going to get more since I think I have covered almost all the usual choices. Also I have received the Silmic II, along with Nichicon MUSES ES and BlackGate NX Hi-Q from previous LOD project. Now I am waiting for some Wima and Vishay PP film caps to come, as well as AVX OxiCap. Also ordered some pin socket, which I hope to solder in for the caps for future cap rolling. After that I think I am pretty much done with all the mod.


----------



## j0ewhite

doki81 said:


> did you bought from the Japan store or taobao?


 

 doki, I bought this from someone locally (Singapore) who's into DIY-ing. You should know him too from local forum.
  
 I worried he himself doesn't know he sold me fakes (if it is).


----------



## jamato8

j0ewhite said:


> doki, I bought this from someone locally (Singapore) who's into DIY-ing. You should know him too from local forum.
> 
> I worried he himself doesn't know he sold me fakes (if it is).


 
 Are the pins real easy to move? They are soft, appearing to be copper. Normal op amp pins are pretty stiff. If you have a regular op amp you will know right off.


----------



## j0ewhite

jamato8 said:


> Are the pins real easy to move? They are soft, appearing to be copper. Normal op amp pins are pretty stiff. If you have a regular op amp you will know right off.


 

 I'm not quite sure if they're soft or stiff as these are the first opamps I bought. Got these for my Essence STU initially and gonna try it on the E12.
  
 The person I bought it from is quite well known locally as he DIY his own portable amp. I though I wouldn't go wrong buying from him.
  
 But the more I look and compare with the photos posted here, it seems like mine were fakes...


----------



## ClieOS

Well, that guy could have just sourced them from eBay as well. I remember having an argument with another guy in the DIY forum who insists that eBay is fine for sourcing IC. As you can see, quite a few members get burnt on the MUSES.


----------



## highfell

jamato8 said:


> Are the pins real easy to move? They are soft, appearing to be copper. Normal op amp pins are pretty stiff. If you have a regular op amp you will know right off.




They are copper based.

I have it on good authority that "NJRC put an awful lot of effort into the design right down to using OFC copper in the link between the chip itself and the legs that come out of the package".


----------



## jamato8

highfell said:


> They are copper based.
> 
> I have it on good authority that "NJRC put an awful lot of effort into the design right down to using OFC copper in the link between the chip itself and the legs that come out of the package".


 
 I believe it. They legs are dangerously soft, in that you cold work them a few times and they will break off. They are about as soft as butter. I haven't listened to them yet. Will try one soon.


----------



## akash neagi

Just placed an order for one through noisymotel!!!!
 Can't wait to get my hands on them...


----------



## Shawn71

akash neagi said:


> Just placed an order for one through noisymotel!!!!
> 
> Can't wait to get my hands on them...




for usd299? W/free intl shipping?


----------



## akash neagi

AUD $300 with free shipping...


----------



## Loquah

akash neagi said:


> Just placed an order for one through noisymotel!!!!
> Can't wait to get my hands on them...


 
  
 That's where I got mine too.


----------



## gikigill

loquah said:


> That's where I got mine too.


 

 Same here.


----------



## Loquah

gikigill said:


> Same here.


 
  
 You got one too!? Cool. What op amps are you using? Just the stock ones?
  
 So far I'm liking the LME49600 buffer with the AD1611 that came with the E12  or with an AD8599 that I bought separately. Hoping to try some OPA627s soon using an adapter.


----------



## gikigill

Currently stock but getting Muses01 in the mail.
  
 Even stock, its very good compared to a lot of amps in its price range and much better than the stock E12.


----------



## Loquah

Agree.

Where are you getting the Muses?


----------



## pietcux

Let's rename this thread:
TO MUSE OR NOT TO MUSE..........
Seriously, what wase the amps name? Muse E12 DIY????


----------



## JamesFiiO

clieos said:


> These are what I have for E12DIY so far, including the stock:
> 
> OPAMP :
> LME49860, AD8599, ADA4627-1, LME49990, OPA1642, AD825, LT1028, AD744, OPA627, LT1678, LT1469, LT1358, OPA2111, NE5532, LM4562, LME49720, NJM5532, NJM2114, NJM4580, NJM4558, NJM4556, OP270, OP275, OPA2134, OPA2227, OPA604, OPA2604, AD8397, OPA2209, OPA2107, AD8620, AD8066, AD797, OPA1611, MAX9632, MUSES8820, MUSES8920, MUSES01, MUSES02.
> ...


 
  






 you must paid quite a lots of money for the OP , sorry for that cause we know you can save the money if we have not produced the E12DIY.


----------



## gikigill

loquah said:


> Agree.
> 
> Where are you getting the Muses?


 
 http://au.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NJR/MUSES01/?qs=%2Fha2pyFaduj4O%252bDyda3JRMwp9%252bdwRWhVThyiPm0vxFw%3D


----------



## ClieOS

jamesfiio said:


> you must paid quite a lots of money for the OP , sorry for that cause we know you can save the money if we have not produced the E12DIY.


 
  
 Ha, I did spend more than the E12DIY itself on parts, but it has also given me by far the best fun I have ever had on any portable amps. It will be my reference portable amps for years to come. In that sense, money well spent I'll say.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Ha, I did spend more than the E12DIY itself on parts, but it has also given me by far the best fun I have ever had on any portable amps. It will be my reference portable amps for years to come. In that sense, money well spent I'll say.


 
  
 LOL. I'll be in the same boat if I pull the trigger on a MUSES01. Do you think the circuitry of the E12DIY is good enough to really compete at the $600+ level given that that's what many of us are spending by the time we add caps and op amps?


----------



## gikigill

Absolutely, this is Fiio joining the big league in amps. Always appreciated the value proposition they offered but now they can stand solely on the sound.


----------



## toears

Yeah, I am considering the X5 and ciems as the next 'investment'. Thanks FiiO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. My pc is my current source right now, breaks in the music all the time.... X5 + E12DIY + good ciems will be a good combo I guess.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> LOL. I'll be in the same boat if I pull the trigger on a MUSES01. Do you think the circuitry of the E12DIY is good enough to really compete at the $600+ level given that that's what many of us are spending by the time we add caps and op amps?


 
  
 If you really want to roll opamp but limited in budget, I reckon either MUSES01 or 02 will be enough. 01 will be more for texture and fullness while 02 is more for soundstage and detail. There are other opamp that sounds really good in E12DIY as well, but not necessary better than MUSES. That way you only invest an extra $50~$100 and you already have one of the best sounding portable amps around. If you want something very neutral, either NJM5532, NE5532, LM4562 or LME49720 will give you some of the cleanness sound with very little cost. Caps mod is relatively minor and you can skip it if you want to. Not that the stock Wima is bad in anyway as even polyester is considered by most to be much less coloured than the majority of electrolytic caps.
  
 I have said it elsewhere and I'll repeat it here: don't buy into the idea of higher price = better SQ. Many of the $500+ portable amps don't outperform some of the best sub-$500 portable amps around. Many of them are only expensive because their makers known they can get away with that kind of pricing, not because they are better in anyway. If E12DIY isn't a FiiO but from some smart Western businessman, it would have been priced for $600+ easily.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> If you really want to roll opamp but limited in budget, I reckon either MUSES01 or 02 will be enough. 01 will be more for texture and fullness while 02 is more for soundstage and detail. There are other opamp that sounds really good in E12DIY as well, but not necessary better than MUSES. That way you only invest an extra $50~$100 and you already have one of the best sounding portable amps around. If you want something very neutral, either NJM5532, NE5532, LM4562 or LME49720 will give you some of the cleanness sound with very little cost. Caps mod is relatively minor and you can skip it if you want to. Not that the stock Wima is bad in anyway as even polyester is considered by most to be much less coloured than the majority of electrolytic caps.
> 
> I have said it elsewhere and I'll repeat it here: don't buy into the idea of higher price = better SQ. Many of the $500+ portable amps don't outperform some of the best sub-$500 portable amps around. Many of them are only expensive because their makers known they can get away with that kind of pricing, not because they are better in anyway. If E12DIY isn't a FiiO but from some smart Western businessman, it would have been priced for $600+ easily.


 
  
 Thanks ClieOS. I am hoping to try a pair of OPA627AUs on an adapter soon, but otherwise I am very happy with AD8599 or the supplied OPA1611 with the LME49600 buffer.
  
 I'm still not sure whether to bother changing the Wima caps for the supplied alternatives.


----------



## ClieOS

Be sure not to buy OPA627 from eBay as they are almost guaranteed to be fake. The SIP socket I ordered should be here by tomorrow or the next day, then hopefully I'll be able to mod the caps and tell you how the Wima compared to the Elna tonerex.


----------



## shyamelge

Since budget is limited, can LME49720HA provide 90-95 percent of Muses 1/2 purely in terms of sound quality? Or the difference is much more?


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Be sure not to buy OPA627 from eBay as they are almost guaranteed to be fake. The SIP socket I ordered should be here by tomorrow or the next day, then hopefully I'll be able to mod the caps and tell you how the Wima compared to the Elna tonerex.


 
  
 No, I'm buying from Tam along with some op amps for my Quattro amp


----------



## ClieOS

shyamelge said:


> Since budget is limited, can LME49720HA provide 90-95 percent of Muses 1/2 purely in terms of sound quality? Or the difference is much more?


 
  
 LME49720 will be quite different from either of the MUSES. In comparison, both MUSES are more on the richer and fuller side of the presentation (especially 01), while LME49720 is on the leaner, more transparent side. If you are looking for the ultimate transparent opamp to use, NJM5532 or the lesser NE5532 will be my top recommendation, followed by LM4562, then LME49720. Though it is still very transparent, LME49720 has a little more bass kick compared to the other three, which isn't a bad thing if you like just a hint more dynamic. I'll say the difference in SQ isn't vast between LME49720 and MUSES, but one thing that MUSES has a lot more is the overall musicality and fluidity.
  


loquah said:


> No, I'm buying from Tam along with some op amps for my Quattro amp


 
  
 There the question is where Tam sources their opamp from. In any case, does Tam sell opamp without the adapter? You will need to use the included 'side-by-side' adapter in order to fit them in E12DIY. The typical stack-up adapter will be too tall.


----------



## shyamelge

clieos said:


> LME49720 will be quite different from either of the MUSES. In comparison, both MUSES are more on the richer and fuller side of the presentation (especially 01), while LME49720 is on the leaner, more transparent side. If you are looking for the ultimate transparent opamp to use, NJM5532 or the lesser NE5532 will be my top recommendation, followed by LM4562, then LME49720. Though it is still very transparent, LME49720 has a little more bass kick compared to the other three, which isn't a bad thing if you like just a hint more dynamic. I'll say the difference in SQ isn't vast between LME49720 and MUSES, but one thing that MUSES has a lot more is the overall musicality and fluidity.


 
 Thank you for sharing your impressions on these op amps. Got the message that Muses are more musical and fluid.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> There the question is where Tam sources their opamp from. In any case, does Tam sell opamp without the adapter? You will need to use the included 'side-by-side' adapter in order to fit them in E12DIY. The typical stack-up adapter will be too tall.


 
  
  
 Yeah, I was wondering that too (about sourcing). I'll have to cancel my order for the AMD ones on the top/bottom adapter and see if I can get just the SMD chips only.


----------



## ClieOS

Finally:
  





 SIP socket soldered in.
  




 I have saved the stock Wima so they can be reused if wanted.
  





 
 Top row: Wima and Vishay PP caps, 10nF and 22nF respectively, way too small a capacitance to be used by themselves.
 2nd row: BlackGate NX Hi-Q 2.2uF, AVX OxiCap 100uF
 3rd row: Stock replacement Elna Tonerex 10uF, Elna Silmic II 22uF, stock Wima Polyester 2.2uF
 In the socket: AVX OxiCap 100uF bypassed with Vishay PP 22nF.
  
 p/s: the oriignal plan to use Silmic II bypassed by PP doesn't work as the space isn't enough. My spared Nichicon MUSE ES won't fit so I didn't bother. Might need to get some smaller capacitance in the future but I am pretty happy as it is.


----------



## TekeRugburn

LME49720 is definitely the opamp for me.


----------



## DefQon

Na or Ha?


----------



## TekeRugburn

the dip8 one....NA i believe


----------



## DefQon

Yep dip8 is NA, the TO22 metal case HA version I found to sound a bit better, this could be related to the packaging the material is in. You can order 3 samples from TI for free just say you're experimenting.


----------



## shyamelge

tekerugburn said:


> LME49720 is definitely the opamp for me.


 
 Is it a better value for money as compared to muses and other expensive op amps? Or some other aspects?


----------



## Chefano

Did not hear it yet, but Ive ordered 2 LME49710 for $1.75 each on Mouser. Im waiting the customs to release my  Muses, then I can tell you. For now Im on the "price does not matter", but according to other reviewers the LME is a pretty darn good opamp.. and come on 3 bucks is a bargain, can't go wrong with it even not listening to the muses.
  
 Regards!


----------



## jamato8

I am listening to the Muse 01 now. I have the LME49710 on order but I need to look at my op amps as I may have it already so I should also look through all of my op amps. I had the opa627 in the amp before these. I also have the 02 to try out. Both of the Muses I have are the real deal.


----------



## Loquah

jamato8 said:


> I am listening to the Muse 01 now. I have the LME49710 on order but I need to look at my op amps as I may have it already so I should also look through all of my op amps. I had the opa627 in the amp before these. I also have the 02 to try out. Both of the Muses I have are the real deal.


 
  
 How would you compare the OPA627 with the MUSES01? Also which buffer are you using for those two op amps?


----------



## jamato8

loquah said:


> How would you compare the OPA627 with the MUSES01? Also which buffer are you using for those two op amps?


 
 Will have to listen more but at this point I prefer the OPA627.


----------



## shyamelge

jamato8 said:


> Will have to listen more but at this point I prefer the OPA627.


 
 I look forward to your detailed impressions.


----------



## TekeRugburn

shyamelge said:


> Is it a better value for money as compared to muses and other expensive op amps? Or some other aspects?


 
  
 value? definitely as the LM49720 can be had for under 5 bucks.  I cant comment on either muse as i dont have them but seeing as their like 15 times more, I cant quite certainly say they're a better VALUE.


----------



## shyamelge

Has anyone bought genuine OPA627 recently? 
  
 kindly provide the link. I am hesitant to buy online as I am told that most of them are fakes.


----------



## ClieOS

Mouser.com, digikey.com, element14.com (= farnell / newark), or rs-online.com are all very reputable electronics parts supplier. You won't want to pick up a cheap pair of OPA627 over eBay or some unnamed website as it is probably one of the most counterfeited opamp around.


----------



## shyamelge

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and providing names of reliable sellers.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Mouser.com, digikey.com, element14.com (= farnell / newark), or rs-online.com are all very reputable electronics parts supplier. You won't want to pick up a cheap pair of OPA627 over eBay or some unnamed website as it is probably one of the most counterfeited opamp around.


 
  
 Mouser is a lot cheaper than RS Online (at least buying from their Australian sites which then source the stock from overseas anyway it seems)


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Mouser is a lot cheaper than RS Online (at least buying from their Australian sites which then source the stock from overseas anyway it seems)


 

 Mouser doesn't cover import tax and local GST usually, so the listing price will be cheaper but you might get hit by custom tax. RS Online Australia on the other hand already includes the taxes, so they are listing the final price, plus they have local stock. Of course just about everything in Australia is more expensive than U.S.


----------



## shyamelge

jamato8 said:


> Will have to listen more but at this point I prefer the OPA627.


 
 any quick impressions why you liked 627 over muses?


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Mouser doesn't cover import tax and local GST usually, so the listing price will be cheaper but you might get hit by custom tax. RS Online Australia on the other hand already includes the taxes, so they are listing the final price, plus they have local stock. Of course just about everything in Australia is more expensive than U.S.


 

 Thanks for the info, I'll look into it further


----------



## jamato8

shyamelge said:


> any quick impressions why you liked 627 over muses?


 
 Have to listen more but on first listen I didn't like the bass of the Muse as much as the 627.


----------



## highfell

jamato8 said:


> Have to listen more but on first listen I didn't like the bass of the Muse as much as the 627.




I think you are comparing MUSES01 regarding that comment.

Have you tried MUSES02 yet?


----------



## jamato8

highfell said:


> I think you are comparing MUSES01 regarding that comment.
> 
> Have you tried MUSES02 yet?


 
 I have been so busy at work (ER nurse) but Yes, I am using the 01 and haven't tried the 02 but I have let the 01 burn in and the bass cleared up and I am getting good transparency. I will try the 02 today if I have time.


----------



## Loquah

jamato8 said:


> I have been so busy at work (ER nurse) but Yes, I am using the 01 and haven't tried the 02 but I have let the 01 burn in and the bass cleared up and I am getting good transparency. I will try the 02 today if I have time.


 
  
 Please continue to prefer the 627, my wallet's begging you!!


----------



## jamato8

loquah said:


> Please continue to prefer the 627, my wallet's begging you!!


 
 I do, I fooled myself! Good blind test. I "thought" I had left the 201 in place but I had replaced it with the 627. So at this point, yes I prefer the 627. I am listening to the 02 right now. It does sound different. It is brand new and needs some time.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> p/s: the oriignal plan to use Silmic II bypassed by PP doesn't work as the space isn't enough. My spared Nichicon MUSE ES won't fit so I didn't bother. Might need to get some smaller capacitance in the future but I am pretty happy as it is.


 
  
 That's a real cool DIY! So, any recommendation for small and slim bypass cap to improve transparency?  Any result of the Silmic II bypass?
 I plan to solder a slim small cap, but not sure which cap is better to improve the transparency.
 Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

earfonia said:


> That's a real cool DIY! So, any recommendation for small and slim bypass cap to improve transparency?  Any result of the Silmic II bypass?
> I plan to solder a slim small cap, but not sure which cap is better to improve the transparency.
> Thanks!


 
  
 As said, I didn't bypass the Silmic II because it doesn't have enough space. But Silmic II itself is already really good. Overall it is quite transparent, but still retains the smoothness of an electrolytic caps. If you want the kind of the sharpness / rawness of a film cap, but can't find one small enough to fit inside, I reckon AVX OxiCap NOJ series should do you well. If you are not good at desoldering (which isn't easy btw, as the copper pad in E12DIY get detached easy during desoldering), I'll recommend you to just cut the leg of the stock Wima off, but left in some length and just solder the replacement caps directly onto the Wima's leg. If you do choose OxiCap, remember to heat-shrink it so it won't accidentally short anything else.


----------



## jamato8

earfonia said:


> That's a real cool DIY! So, any recommendation for small and slim bypass cap to improve transparency?  Any result of the Silmic II bypass?
> I plan to solder a slim small cap, but not sure which cap is better to improve the transparency.
> Thanks!


 
 Try to find some non polar Black Gates. 16 volt 33uF.


----------



## earfonia

jamato8 said:


> Try to find some non polar Black Gates. 16 volt 33uF.


 
  
 Thanks! I'm thinking not to replace the existing WIMA caps, but just to add small bypass caps for the higher frequencies.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> As said, I didn't bypass the Silmic II because it doesn't have enough space. But Silmic II itself is already really good. Overall it is quite transparent, but still retains the smoothness of an electrolytic caps. If you want the kind of the sharpness / rawness of a film cap, but can't find one small enough to fit inside, I reckon AVX OxiCap NOJ series should do you well. If you are not good at desoldering (which isn't easy btw, as the copper pad in E12DIY get detached easy during desoldering), I'll recommend you to just cut the leg of the stock Wima off, but left in some length and just solder the replacement caps directly onto the Wima's leg. If you do choose OxiCap, remember to heat-shrink it so it won't accidentally short anything else.


 
  
 Ok, noted the risk and the tips! Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

jamato8 said:


> Try to find some non polar Black Gates. 16 volt 33uF.


 
  
 IMO, BG is far from being transparent. Well, at least the few pairs of NX Hi-Q (which some have a hundreds hours or two on them) I have are nowhere near being transparent sounding. Even the Silmic II (which only get 10~20 hours so far) sound more transparent to my ears.


----------



## Shinystar325

怒顶J大~~~


----------



## jamato8

clieos said:


> IMO, BG is far from being transparent. Well, at least the few pairs of NX Hi-Q (which some have a hundreds hours or two on them) I have are nowhere near being transparent sounding. Even the Silmic II (which only get 10~20 hours so far) sound more transparent to my ears.


 
 We can agree, or at least I will, to disagree. I have heard many implementations of the Black Gates and have not heard them to be lacking in transparency. Audio Note UK has access to the finest capacitors in the world and have stated they are the best electrolytic ever made, to which I agree, until another one comes along that is better. I have used nonpolar directly in the signal path and still felt they were as good as anything I have heard and that goes from expensive teflon, silver, silver/gold and so on. The most transparent amp I have heard has all Black Gates. When they were available and I suggested Woo Audio try them they did and then added them as a option to their line, until they ran out. I still have a good store of them, and am glad I do. There are many on the market now that are counterfeits but I am sure yours are real. Maybe they got dried out but BG's seem to last longer than other electrolytic caps.


----------



## ClieOS

Never heard any Audio Note stuff before , nor does it matters. What matter is what I have heard on the E12DIY so far, and the BG certainly isn't impressing. Anyway, my BG comes from Parts Connecxion a few years ago.


----------



## jamato8

Parts C., is a good place, They bought out a lot of the last stock of Black Gate caps. They felt it was the best electrolytic ever made so they were sorry to see it go and wanted to stock up as much as possible. A while back I asked them if they had anything equivalent and they said there was nothing as good but some that will do, obviously.


----------



## Loquah

I've spent more time with the E12DIY today and the LME49600 + OPA1611 combo is simply outstanding and the best of all combos I've tried so far. I'm yet to try DIP style op amps though... hoping OPA627AU is an end game so I don't need to start trying DIPs and therefore grinding down the case...


----------



## ClieOS

Found some fun fact as I dig a bit up about BG over the internet - though there are reference saying that BG was invented as early as 1978/9, the US patent was issued in 1991. I thought the more reasonable time frame should have been mid to late 80's, which was the time BG's manufacturing began - or maybe there is a gap between the invention time and the production time. In any case, when BG was out of production by 2006 or so, it would have been 15 years since the patent issued and only 2 years before the patent expired (US patent issued before 1995 only get 17 years). I assume the JP patent (20 years) must be filed before or the same time as US patent, and therefore all patent related to BG should have expired at most 2011. Nothing to stop Rubycon or any manufacturer to bring back BG actually.


----------



## MistahBungle

Agreed. Best combo I've tried as well (tried it for a few days - OPA604 was better than AD8620 for me as well). I don't mind AD797 w/LME49600 as well, but AD797 is noticeably warmer than the others & I prefer the comparative 'neutralness' of the other two.



loquah said:


> I've spent more time with the E12DIY today and the LME49600 + OPA1611 combo is simply outstanding and the best of all combos I've tried so far. I'm yet to try DIP style op amps though... hoping OPA627AU is an end game so I don't need to start trying DIPs and therefore grinding down the case...


----------



## Loquah

mistahbungle said:


> Agreed. Best combo I've tried as well (tried it for a few days - OPA604 was better than AD8620 for me as well). I don't mind AD797 w/LME49600 as well, but AD797 is noticeably warmer than the others & I prefer the comparative 'neutralness' of the other two.


 
  
 The amount of detail and texture is breathtaking at times, but there's still really punchy, present bass. I previously liked the AD8599, but it pales in comparison to the OPA1611 in the E12DIY


----------



## MistahBungle

Really ? That (8599) was going on the order list. Maybe I shouldn't bother ? 



loquah said:


> The amount of detail and texture is breathtaking at times, but there's still really punchy, present bass. I previously liked the AD8599, but it pales in comparison to the OPA1611 in the E12DIY


----------



## jamato8

Yes, I tried the 1611 today and really like it. 
 ----------------
  
 On the Black Gates, in the world of caps, Rubycon saw more money elsewhere. The holder of the patent lost interest and after his wife died, wouldn't allow anyone else to use the patent. 
  
 If the patent did expire then I would assume someone with money might want to start them up again. I know that Audio Note UK has the money and if it was possible, they would do it. They did approach the patent holder a long time ago and he refused. Audio Note UK also brought back the tantalum resistors after they sadly stopped making them in Japan but used magnetic end caps, when messed up their sound. I only use NOS Japanese Tants but they are hard to find. I have the NOS tants in my fi.Q along with all Black Gates.


----------



## Loquah

mistahbungle said:


> Really ? That (8599) was going on the order list. Maybe I shouldn't bother ?


 
  
 It's nice and it's not expensive, but it's just not as good as the OPA1611 for my tastes. It has a thicker, tubey sound with a more intimate stage size.
  
 Just noticed you're in Geelong. I'm hoping to arrange a meet soon (no specific plans yet though) so perhaps you can come hear it if you want. That said, it's cheap enough to just give it a go for the simple experience...


----------



## MistahBungle

Thanks for the lowdown on 8599  Yep, noticed it was cheap-ish so will still probably get it. And yeah, another trip to Melbourne wouldn't be entirely out of the question given the recent frequency of trips I've made to blow my hard earned on shiny portable audio gear 



loquah said:


> It's nice and it's not expensive, but it's just not as good as the OPA1611 for my tastes. It has a thicker, tubey sound with a more intimate stage size.
> 
> Just noticed you're in Geelong. I'm hoping to arrange a meet soon (no specific plans yet though) so perhaps you can come hear it if you want. That said, it's cheap enough to just give it a go for the simple experience...


----------



## drgazza

Excuse me,
 but the offer of the first page, it is still valid?


----------



## MistahBungle

No. You can still buy one from Fiio retailers though at whatever retail price they want to charge.



drgazza said:


> Excuse me,
> 
> but the offer of the first page, it is still valid?


----------



## drgazza

mistahbungle said:


> No. You can still buy one from Fiio retailers though at whatever retail price they want to charge.


 
 you know a dealer,  who sells it at a reasonable price?


----------



## MistahBungle

Look here for dealers; prices might vary a bit from country to country depending on cost of import duties for retailers/usual business costs/etc (or maybe keep an eye on the for sale forums ? I know it was only released 2 mths ago, but you never know  Or even little e big B). I paid a bit under AUD$300 for mine, but as I said YMMV with price.



drgazza said:


> you know a dealer,  who sells it at a reasonable price?


----------



## Shawn71

drgazza said:


> you know a dealer,  who sells it at a reasonable price?




Try noisymotel or fiio itself....


----------



## MistahBungle

Noisy Motel still had a couple (as of last week), but if you've got to pay shipping to the other side of the world & potentially import duties/tax on top for some countries, that might not be a great option if you've got Fiio dealers closer to wherever you are.


----------



## JamesFiiO

so, to all E12DIY's user, do we have a common agreement about which combo is the best for E12DIY?


----------



## Shawn71

JamesFiiO said:
			
		

> .so, to all E12DIY's user, do we have a common agreement about which combo is the best for E12DIY? [/COLOR]s.




Thats will be different response to see as end to end will not be same for all........the source and IEM/HP.


----------



## Loquah

jamesfiio said:


> so, to all E12DIY's user, do we have a common agreement about which combo is the best for E12DIY?


 
  
 LME49600 and OPA1611 for me. I'm looking forward to the X5 now that I've read that it uses OPA1611 - great choice!


----------



## MistahBungle

+1, though I enjoyed OPA604 & AD797 w/LME49600 as well (prefer it to BUF634).

Edit - Source/IEM's as per my sig; I.E AK100 Mk II & 1964Ears V3's.



loquah said:


> LME49600 and OPA1611 for me. I'm looking forward to the X5 now that I've read that it uses OPA1611 - great choice!


----------



## Shawn71

To complete its fullness,i think posting the source and your iems/HPs is not a bad idea......imo. That way everyone incl james wil have an overall impressions.

«TY»


----------



## ClieOS

jamesfiio said:


> so, to all E12DIY's user, do we have a common agreement about which combo is the best for E12DIY?


 
  
 Doubt that will ever happen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
  


shawn71 said:


> To complete its fullness,i think posting the source and your iems/HPs is not a bad idea......imo. That way everyone incl james wil have an overall impressions.
> 
> «TY»


 
  
 So far the sources I have used: DX50, X3, X5 and HM901, all line-out.


----------



## imackler

Are these going to be released to the general public? Sounds like a lot of fun.


----------



## ClieOS

imackler said:


> Are these going to be released to the general public? Sounds like a lot of fun.


 
  
 They are already for the general public, but it was a one time deal. Those who missed the pre-order can still pick one up from some of the FiiO retailer who stock it. I saw some floating on Taobao for about $250 or so.


----------



## MistahBungle

Edit - ClieOS - fastest draw in the West 



imackler said:


> Are these going to be released to the general public? Sounds like a lot of fun.


----------



## K.T.

mistahbungle said:


> +1, though I enjoyed OPA604 & AD797 w/LME49600 as well (prefer it to BUF634).
> 
> Edit - Source/IEM's as per my sig; I.E AK100 Mk II & 1964Ears V3's.





What's better about the LME49600 over the BUF634 to your ears? I'm curious because I've heard a lot across the years that the OPA604 pairs very well with the BUF634. I haven't experimented myself, but I wonder what's different.




loquah said:


> LME49600 and OPA1611 for me. I'm looking forward to the X5 now that I've read that it uses OPA1611 - great choice!





Are you using the side by side adapter boards that came with the kit to mount the OPA1611? I understand the stacked Brown Dog adapters are too thick to fit into the case.

I can't wait until I have a little more time to play around with this. OPA1611 and OPA604 on my list for sure. As well as MUSES once those are safely and easily available in the states.


----------



## Chefano

loquah said:


> LME49600 and OPA1611 for me. I'm looking forward to the X5 now that I've read that it uses OPA1611 - great choice!


 
 Thats is true!
 I can wait to listen to another combinations!


----------



## Loquah

k.t. said:


> What's better about the LME49600 over the BUF634 to your ears? I'm curious because I've heard a lot across the years that the OPA604 pairs very well with the BUF634. I haven't experimented myself, but I wonder what's different.
> Are you using the side by side adapter boards that came with the kit to mount the OPA1611? I understand the stacked Brown Dog adapters are too thick to fit into the case.
> 
> I can't wait until I have a little more time to play around with this. OPA1611 and OPA604 on my list for sure. As well as MUSES once those are safely and easily available in the states.


 
  
 The OPA1611s come with the E12DIY already mounted on an adapter. You can fit DIP-8s in the E12DIY, but you have to grind the case down a little.
  
 Also, for my preferred combo (1611 & LME49600) I was predominantly using AK100 with UM Miracles, but prefer this combo across the board with all my gear.


----------



## jamato8

I like the opa 1611 and the buf634. Great that they included the opa1611. Great little amp.


----------



## highfell

jamato8 said:


> I have been so busy at work (ER nurse) but Yes, I am using the 01 and haven't tried the 02 but I have let the 01 burn in and the bass cleared up and I am getting good transparency. I will try the 02 today if I have time.




Just wondering whether you have had a chance yet to compare - not looking to rush you though -


----------



## nmatheis

I was hoping for answers to the following questions:

1. In general, how do the 3 buffers that come with the E12 DIY contribute to overall SQ?

2. What are a few opamps that I could order that are plug n play with no soldering and no case grinding/sanding, and what's the best source to order from?

3. No access to soldering equipment and no friends who are into DIY electronics on my end. Is there any interest out there in providing that service for people like me? For instance, you order some opamps which need to be soldered onto the E12 DIY's adapters, and we send you our adapters and compensation for cost, time, and shipping?

Thanks,
Nikolaus


----------



## Loquah

nmatheis said:


> I was hoping for answers to the following questions:
> 
> 1. In general, how do the 3 buffers that come with the E12 DIY contribute to overall SQ?
> 
> ...


 
  
 In relation to Q2, I don't think there are any because the DIY uses an 8 pin socket, but DIP-8 chips are too tall. Some slight sanding or filing work is probably the easiest option. Someone put some great picks in an earlier post on this thread.


----------



## K.T.

loquah said:


> The OPA1611s come with the E12DIY already mounted on an adapter.




OK, that's great news! Gosh, I've been so busy I didn't even take a close look at what came with the amp. Thanks!


----------



## nmatheis

loquah said:


> In relation to Q2, I don't think there are any because the DIY uses an 8 pin socket, but DIP-8 chips are too tall. Some slight sanding or filing work is probably the easiest option. Someone put some great picks in an earlier post on this thread.


 
 Well, maybe I'll have to borrow my dad's Dremel tool then.  It sounds like there are some interesting DIP-8 opamps earlier in the thread.


----------



## MistahBungle

To me, everything is just a little smoother. For example, particularly with the combo in the amp when you buy it - OPA8632/BUF634, treble is a little bit harsh with a lot of music I tried (I tested this 'stock' combination for 5 days/~12 hrs when I first received the amp) to my ears/with my setup (the IEM's I use don't exactly have sparkly treble either, and my source is black as the ace of spades). I found LME49600 puts a bit of a lid on that, and just makes all 4 opamps sound a little bit more 'controlled'. Obviously YMMV depending on source & headphones/IEM's/etc.



k.t. said:


> What's better about the LME49600 over the BUF634 to your ears? I'm curious because I've heard a lot across the years that the OPA604 pairs very well with the BUF634. I haven't experimented myself, but I wonder what's different..


----------



## Loquah

mistahbungle said:


> To me, everything is just a little smoother. For example, particularly with the combo in the amp when you buy it - OPA8632/BUF634, treble is a little bit harsh with a lot of music I tried (I tested this 'stock' combination for 5 days/~12 hrs when I first received the amp) to my ears/with my setup (the IEM's I use don't exactly have sparkly treble either, and my source is black as the ace of spades). I found LME49600 puts a bit of a lid on that, and just makes all 4 opamps sound a little bit more 'controlled'. Obviously YMMV depending on source & headphones/IEM's/etc.


 
  
 I didn't notice the treble specifically, but found that the LME49600 made the sound more spacious and coherent while the BUF634 sounded to me like it was pushing the mids forward a bit at the centre and it made the music seem more like a recording to my ears.
  
 As always, personal taste will play a big part in which combos different people prefer.


----------



## K.T.

Wow, good comments on the LME49600. I'll definitely be trying it. It's great we have a choice with this amp. What a fantastic opportunity this was. Thanks, James!

Lol, I've been so busy I didn't even register what came with the amp when it arrived. I've just been using it with the stock chips, which I like a lot. IMO, the default DIY configuration has more weight and character than the standard E12, which is very competent but a little bland in comparison.

With all this talk of OPA627, I'm just waiting for the right time to order some up. Does anyone like the OPA604 which was included with the set? I just swapped these in and it's too early for me to tell.

After the OPA604s burn in for a bit, it will be the OPA1611, and then the OPA627 once I get them.


----------



## Hawaiibadboy

This is being released in Japan on Friday.


----------



## imackler

Are these more expensive than the E12 because of the revision of internal circuitry or simply the additional opamps/buffers?


----------



## K.T.

hawaiibadboy said:


> This is being released in Japan on Friday.


 
  
 What do mean? You are selling your personal amp somewhere in Japan, or FiiO is producing them for the Japanese market?
  
 From what I understand, these are a limited production item and no more are planned to be produced.


----------



## Loquah

imackler said:


> Are these more expensive than the E12 because of the revision of internal circuitry or simply the additional opamps/buffers?


 
  
 Both as I understand it. From what I have read, the internal circuitry is simplified and improved (thanks to removal of bass boost, etc.) and there's the ability to swap buffer, op amps, capacitors and resistors with some provided, but lots of options available on the market


----------



## imackler

Do you guys think that it is worth the extra cash? I'm intrigued by the possibility and it seems like a ton of fun, but at $271 after shipping...wow, that's so much more than an E12.


----------



## ClieOS

imackler said:


> Are these more expensive than the E12 because of the revision of internal circuitry or simply the additional opamps/buffers?


 
  
 The extra opamp and buffer themselves will cost over $50, so keep that in mind. See below:
  


imackler said:


> Do you guys think that it is worth the extra cash? I'm intrigued by the possibility and it seems like a ton of fun, but at $271 after shipping...wow, that's so much more than an E12.


 
  
 $271 is the price for those of you who missed the pre-order. Those of us who pre-ordered only paid less than $200, including direct shipping from FiiO no less. E12DIY isn't a money making products and that's why the price can be set so low initially. But once the retailers picked them up, invested into tax, shipping and stocking fee, etc, the price does go up a bit. Then again the original pricing has no room for profit at all, so it is still sensible for a $250-ish price tag. Well, retailer have to make a living too. I personally would think a sub$300 price tag is still well worth it, regardless of what the initial pricing is, consider that it competes very well with all the $300+ amp I have heard. I said this before - If E12DIY was from a more famous Western brand, it could have been sold for an easy $350+ and buyer will still feel happy about it.


----------



## Loquah

imackler said:


> Do you guys think that it is worth the extra cash? I'm intrigued by the possibility and it seems like a ton of fun, but at $271 after shipping...wow, that's so much more than an E12.


 
  
 I haven't spent any significant time with the standard E12, but can confirm that the DIY punches well above the $271 price tag, even when only using the supplied op amps and buffers.


----------



## jamato8

Nice solid case that will last forever, very transparent amp section that is great in all areas of the musical spectrum. As mentioned, well worth much more money.


----------



## nmatheis

imackler said:


> Do you guys think that it is worth the extra cash? I'm intrigued by the possibility and it seems like a ton of fun, but at $271 after shipping...wow, that's so much more than an E12.


 
 I've got both and find myself using my E12 DIY more.  Just ordered some additional opamps to try


----------



## Chefano

Just received my opamps and buffers.. could not wait till the weekend and tested both Muses with the BUF634.  I really was expecting more (no WOW factor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




yet) So far the MUSE01 is my choice.


----------



## ClieOS

The stock AD8620 can be slightly underwhelming at first, but do wait till you tried other opamps before making up your mind. They do open up a new dimension.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> The stock AD8620 can be slightly underwhelming at first, but do wait till you tried other opamps before making up your mind. They do open up a new dimension.


 
  
 Do you mean the AD8620 needs significant burn-in?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Do you mean the AD8620 needs significant burn-in?


 
  
 No, given I don't put much stock in solidstate burn-in. I mean at first listen, AD8620 in E12DIY isn't quite as impressive as how the amp can sound with other opamps.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> No, given I don't put much stock in solidstate burn-in. I mean at first listen, AD8620 in E12DIY isn't quite as impressive as how the amp can sound with other opamps.


 
  
 Oh, yeah, couldn't agree more!


----------



## imackler

Hey Clieos: For with sensitive iems and low impedance headphones, where the power of the E12 isn't essential, is the C5 a better choice or can the E12 DIY w/ the right opamp best the amps in your sub-$200 comparison? I saw some of the trade-offs the regular E12 had with some of the other amps in the list. I like neutral but want silence in the EMI and hissing. Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

imackler said:


> Hey Clieos: For with sensitive iems and low impedance headphones, where the power of the E12 isn't essential, is the C5 a better choice or can the E12 DIY w/ the right opamp best the amps in your sub-$200 comparison? I saw some of the trade-offs the regular E12 had with some of the other amps in the list. I like neutral but want silence in the EMI and hissing. Thanks!


 
  
 With the right opamp, I think E12DIY can compete toe to toe with even O2 without an problem, and definitely just a little better than C5. E12DIY is different from regular E12, EMI is actually not a problem at all. If you like total neutral and transparency, get NJM5532 (or NE5532 if you can't find NJM) and HA-5002 and it is pretty much just as clean and as good sounding as an O2. If you want the cleanness with a bit more kick, LME49720 (or LM4562) and BUF634 is a good combo.


----------



## Chefano

Now I have a WOW factor!
 Loved LT1010 (pigback)


----------



## Loquah

chefano said:


> Now I have a WOW factor!
> Loved LT1010 (pigback)


 
  
 Can they fit inside the case with a bit of grinding?


----------



## ClieOS

My BUF socket are low enough that they don't need any mod to fit DIP8.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> My BUF socket are low enough that they don't need any mod to fit DIP8.


 
  
 So they're a little lower than the op amp socket or is there variance between models?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> So they're a little lower than the op amp socket or is there variance between models?


 
  
 Dunno. Why not try an opamp in the BUF socket yourself? As long as the amp isn't turned on, no harm will be done. If an opamp fits, so will a DIP8 buffer.


----------



## Chefano

loquah said:


> Can they fit inside the case with a bit of grinding?


 
 They are a little lower than the Muses opamps, so just a little grinding you will be able to close the case.
 Right now Im just running some experiments on music quality, thats why Im running 2 LT1010 in parallel per channel. 
  
 REgards!


----------



## ClieOS

chefano said:


> They are a little lower than the Muses opamps, so just a little grinding you will be able to close the case.
> Right now Im just running some experiments on music quality, thats why Im running 2 LT1010 in parallel per channel.
> 
> REgards!


 
  
 Are you sure? The LT1010 I have are the same height as the MUSES. It is the BUF socket that is lower, mainly due to how the PCB is designed.


----------



## Chefano

clieos said:


> Are you sure? The LT1010 I have are the same height as the MUSES. It is the BUF socket that is lower, mainly due to how the PCB is designed.


 
  
 Mine uses the same socket for buf and opamp, the dif is minimal, take a closer look to the legs of the Muses (right) and LT1010 left,   probably a 1mm diference on the leg, that makes Muses sit a little higher that the LT1010.


----------



## ClieOS

Yep, I checked the legs, they are also the same, certainly much less than 1mm, more like 1/4mm to me. But I can imagine that small difference can be between a fit and non-fit in a very tight case. I am lucky that mine clear the case without a problem, but it is pretty tight as it is. Another 1/4mm then I might not get them to fit at all.


----------



## Chefano

Yeah! 1mm is too much made a mistake (Lol), I think 1/4 mm is the diff as well


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> Yep, I checked the legs, they are also the same, certainly much less than 1mm, more like 1/4mm to me. But I can imagine that small difference can be between a fit and non-fit in a very tight case. I am lucky that mine clear the case without a problem, but it is pretty tight as it is. Another 1/4mm then I might not get them to fit at all.




If you look at the the metal body of your case, do the big flat surfaces that form the front and back exhibit a kind of bulging or barreling? Mine does. 

If you look where the end caps meet the body, the metal at the center of the flat surfaces bulges up slightly at the center, and runs the full length of the amp down to the other end cap. You can see that the metal is not flat, but bulges along the length of the case. The effect is that the body sleeve is more towards a cylinder than a perfectly squared box. If you press on the bulged center, it becomes flat, but bulges up again once you release it.

I wonder if this minor defect is what's providing enough clearance for the Muses? If so, how fortuitous!

Incidentally, I have two standard E12s in addition to my E12DIY. Only one of my regular E12s has perfectly flat surfaces. It looks very tight and of very high quality!

My other E12 and my E12DIY have the bulging metal. It's slight and doesn't affect the performance, but it doesn't feel as nicely put together. You can especially appreciate it when light reflects off of the case and you can see the metal is not flat but slightly curved. It feels slightly cheapish to see the surface is not flat as one would expect it to be.

However, I hope this defect will allow me to install Muses in my E12DIY without the grinding step.


----------



## ClieOS

My case is near perfect flat, as far as I can tell. I think it is just an issue that the case isn't originally design to accommodate DIP8 (or more precisely, socketed DIP8) and a re-design will add cost. Would have been nice to know early on that DIP8 might become a problem and ask FiiO to sand the case down for us during the case manufacturing. Well, if E12DIY ever has another run or something similar in the future, I am definitely going to make that suggestion. But as it is now, I think it is mostly luck whether the DIP8 opamp or BUF will clear the case or now.


----------



## jamato8

Interesting. Mine is perfectly flat. I can also use the Muses 1 and 2 without modifying my case. Great little amp.


----------



## imackler

jamato8 said:


> Interesting. Mine is perfectly flat. I can also use the Muses 1 and 2 without modifying my case. Great little amp.


 
  
 Have you listened with the HD650? Can it keep step with the SR71A or PB2 with some of those harder to drive, over ear headphones?


----------



## Loquah

imackler said:


> Have you listened with the HD650? Can it keep step with the SR71A or PB2 with some of those harder to drive, over ear headphones?


 
  
 I briefly tried my T1s and my HE-500s and the DIY did well. Not quite as authoritative as a desktop and I can't compare to either of the amps you mentioned, but I was happy enough with what I heard.


----------



## Loquah

Further to above, I just had time to do some further testing and can confirm that the DIY drives the HE-500s and T1s extremely well for a portable amp. When I mentioned desktop amps I was talking about the Bottlehead Mainline as my reference which is really not a fair comparison at all. The DIY would sound as good or better at driving the T1s as the Matrix M-Stage I recently sold. Plenty of power, plenty of space in the soundstage and good detail and separation. On high gain I'm running at around 10 O'clock on the volume using an RWAK100 at 100% volume as the source.


----------



## Chefano

Well, changed some caps today…
 I came back to  the BG-PK, the closer was SILMIC 2 bypassed by some Panasonic 0,01u metal films (even bypassing there was a mid bloat.. everything got confused).
 The PSU was changed as well, some low ESR Sanyo OSCON replaced the stocks (did a mess and a trace was lifted for one cap, had to make a new trace - the one that is kind weird).
 This little thing became my fav portable amp… I wish I could tinker more on the LT1010's


----------



## ClieOS

That's why I don't want to change with the PSU caps. Very likely will mess up the trace if I do.


----------



## akash neagi

I've beenbusing my diy for some time now with my ie80 and I have to say I am falling in love with adele all over again....
My setup is wolfson s3》e12diy》ie80/xba3/momentum/hd518/xba-h1...


----------



## jamato8

The Black Gate nonpolar caps settled in well with my 12DIY. Transparent and great transient response.


----------



## K.T.

jamato8 said:


> The Black Gate nonpolar caps settled in well with my 12DIY. Transparent and great transient response.


 
  
 How are they compared to the stock caps? I was going to avoid messing with caps, but if there's a huge improvement, I'll have to dig through by old BGs to see if I have those on hand.
  
 I ordered OPA627, btw. Presently really enjoying the OPA1611.


----------



## jamato8

k.t. said:


> How are they compared to the stock caps? I was going to avoid messing with caps, but if there's a huge improvement, I'll have to dig through by old BGs to see if I have those on hand.
> 
> I ordered OPA627, btw. Presently really enjoying the OPA1611.


 
 I like the opa1611 as much as the 627. Oh, there is some difference not huge. I think the stock caps do fine. But, as I do use sockets for the caps, I also solder the caps in so it isn't that easy to compare. By using the sockets for the leads of the caps, I don't mess with the trace but I don't like to use just a pressure fitting for a cap. 
  
 I get a nice transparent, dynamic open sound with the BG non polar but it was good before. I am using the 1611 and the buf634.


----------



## nmatheis

I'm curious if people enjoy the opa1611 + buf634 combo better than opa604 + buf634 and why. I tried both and thought that opa604 + buf634 sounded similar but had a wider soundstage. So far, I've just tried buf634 and like opa604 and ad797 best.

I ordered some of the opamps clieos suggested in dip8 and will try them after I give the opa604 another week and then move on to the opa1611 for a week. Got to get the case ground down a bit so I don't have to leave the case open!


----------



## dattorro

At this link below are photos detailing circuit modifications to a FiiO E12DIY to help a hearing impaired person hear their TV.
  
 I do not have sufficient privileges to upload photos to Head-Fi.  Perhaps someone else can select a few and upload them for me.
  
 I was hoping that these photos might encourage FiiO to keep the E12DIY in production so that other hearing impaired people might benefit.
  
https://plus.google.com/photos/100357577944381962948/albums/5980896241556844497


----------



## MistahBungle

dattorro said:


> -SNIP-
> 
> I was hoping that these photos might encourage FiiO to keep the E12DIY in production so that other hearing impaired people might benefit.




I think the process needs to be documented & described in detail as well if you're doing this with trying to sway Fiio to continue production of these devices for the reason you've stated in mind. The pics are fine in themselves, and sure, you can say 'Someone who knows what they're doing should be able to follow from pic to pic', but let's face it, documenting any detailed process like this is a big plus.


----------



## K.T.

May, I ask, what is the nature of the modification that helps hearing impaired people? Is it just a volume boost?

I'm not quite sure what the mod does over the regular amp. Just curious.


----------



## renefg

Hi all,
  
 Just joined this forum today since I recently bought my first FiiO E12 DIY.
  
 Am basically an newbie and would like to know if there is already an ideal configuration to use the Fiio E12 DIY to further enhance the Grado 80i and/or offset any of its limitations (like bass output)?
  
 Many thanks in advance.
  
 Cheers,
 Rene


----------



## Loquah

You might want to get yourself an AD8599 or other warm op amp. Otherwise, I'm not sure which supplied combo is best as I've tuned my setup mostly for my IEMs, not my MS1i's.

I think op amps effect overall signature more than buffers so maybe open your DIY, plug in your Grados and try each op amp one by one (switching off when rolling of course). You'll soon get a sense for your favourite and you'll get to know your op amps at the same time.


----------



## renefg

Many thanks for the good advice Loquah! Will surely try the options you pointed out.
  
 Cheers,
 Rene


----------



## rangga

just bought e12diy yesterday, and now i'm really curious about the opamp rolling.
 if i use muses (01 or 02) opamp, will it be significantly improve the sound?
 i mean, does it worth for money?
 if i want a bright, good treble extension with wide dynamic range sound, what opamp should i choose?
  
 and i did some quick comparation between e12diy and vorzamp pure that i had before.
 what struck me is, the e12diy with default opamp and buf cofiguration, just sounds better in my ears.
 more analog sounding, wider dynamic range and better detail. while the vorzamp has better resolution. more precise and controlled sound, and in result, less exciting sound, at least for my setup


----------



## Loquah

rangga said:


> just bought e12diy yesterday, and now i'm really curious about the opamp rolling.
> if i use muses (01 or 02) opamp, will it be significantly improve the sound?
> i mean, does it worth for money?
> if i want a *bright, good treble extension with wide dynamic range sound*, what opamp should i choose?
> ...


 
  
 To answer the question in bold above, I think definitely OPA1611 or maybe AD797 of the included op amps IMO


----------



## rangga

loquah said:


> To answer the question in bold above, I think definitely OPA1611 or maybe AD797 of the included op amps IMO


 
 thank you for the answer. but i look for another opamp, which isnt included in E12DIY.
 the opamps given by fiio sound really good, but to be honest, i look for more upgrade


----------



## audiofreakie

rangga said:


> thank you for the answer. but i look for another opamp, which isnt included in E12DIY.
> the opamps given by fiio sound really good, but to be honest, i look for more upgrade




Maybe you can try AD797 with dummy adapter buffer, its sound nice in my ex-PB2


----------



## rangga

audiofreakie said:


> Maybe you can try AD797 with dummy adapter buffer, its sound nice in my ex-PB2




i've tried the ad797. its a decent opamp, very smooth mid, less grainy than the ad8620, better resolution too, but lil bit narrower.
with 334+000 cable, the combo sounds very nice. but with piano forte ix, it becomes less exciting, less dynamic range, added too much weight in mid and low section. end of all, it is very dark sounding.

perhaps i should try the muses and ad8599 or lme49720. Anw, thanks for your suggestion ness


----------



## nmatheis

Just followed Clieos lead and ground / filed down the inside of my E12 DIY case to accommodate DIP8 opamps. Rocking the LM4562 + BUF634 with some classic Iron Maiden FLAC out of my X3. Took a while with a Dremel grinder + file to get it ground down enough and smoothed out. Now I can try the various DIP8 opamps I got from Element14 and the Muses I got from amizukidenshi.com. Good times!


----------



## ClieOS

If you like LM4562, NJM5532 (from JRC, not TI's NE5532) might be of your interest as well. Same kind of clean sound, but even more neutral than LM4562. Or maybe LME49720, which is slightly more dynamic than LM4562 with pretty much the same sound.


----------



## nmatheis

clieos said:


> If you like LM4562, NJM5532 (from JRC, not TI's NE5532) might be of your interest as well. Same kind of clean sound, but even more neutral than LM4562. Or maybe LME49720, which is slightly more dynamic than LM4562 with pretty much the same sound.


 
 Hi Clieos,
  
 I ordered several of the opamps you posted a while back in this thread and am working through them in addition to the stock opamps.
  
 In addition to the stock opamps, I've got the following:
 LM4562
 LME49720
 MUSES01
 MUSES02
 MUSES8820
 MUSES8920
 NE5532
 OPA2227
  
 Out of the stock opamps, so far I've enjoyed the AD797 and OPA604 best.
  
 The LM4562 is the first non-stock opamp I've tried after modding the case.  I first tried it with my FA DBA02 with some old Megadeth FLAC, and man was it* *bright!  I was afraid I wasn't going to get along with the LM4562 at all until I switched to Iron Maiden, which was much less bright.  I'm getting used to it now.  Even on the Maiden, upper treble is emphasized more than I'm used to.  Not bad - just different and takes some getting used to.
  
 I'm trying to keep each opamp in for a week, so I get used to the sound signature with different IEMs and full-sized HP.  Fun!
  
 Cheers,
 Nikolaus


----------



## ClieOS

I am a firm believer that the whole system should achieve some form of balance to get the best out of them, as a whole. In that sense, LM4562 is probably a bad pairing with the bright DBA-02. I'll probably go for something smoother and warmer - those MUSES should go fairly well with your IEM.


----------



## nmatheis

clieos said:


> I am a firm believer that the whole system should achieve some form of balance to get the best out of them, as a whole. In that sense, LM4562 is probably a bad pairing with the bright DBA-02. I'll probably go for something smoother and warmer - those MUSES should go fairly well with your IEM.



Agreed on the holistic approach. DBA02 were handy, so I thought I'd give them a shot. Now I know why people call them analytical . The LM4562 paired better with my Astrotec AX35, and I think they'll pair even better with my FA Eterna v1, Denon D1100, and Beyer DT250-80. Will give a try with my Hifiman HE400,
Somic EFI-82 MT and other various IEMS I've got laying around, as well.

I'm also curious how I'll like the various opamps once I start throwing different music in the mix. 

In any case, thanks to Fiio for making the E12 DIY and to you, Clieos, for providing me with the shopping list . 

Cheers,
Nikolaus


----------



## Loquah

@ClieOS I'm loving the OPA1611 (as I've probably said too many times on here already). In your experience, are there any op amps which are similar in presentation, but even better than the OPA1611?


----------



## furyagain

I have just ordered a Muses01 from mouser,
  
 hope it is really that good.
  
  
 I think i should go get some tool tomorrow and start the filing.!
  
 by the way, with the muses01 will the E12 diy be better then the O2?


----------



## nmatheis

furyagain said:


> I have just ordered a Muses01 from mouser,
> 
> hope it is really that good.
> 
> ...



Did you check to see if it's cheaper to order from akizukidenshi.com and have shipment prepared by tenso.com? I got the Muses for about half what Mouser was asking by going that route, but I live in the US so YMMV.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> @ClieOS I'm loving the OPA1611 (as I've probably said too many times on here already). In your experience, are there any op amps which are similar in presentation, but even better than the OPA1611?


 
  
 Haven't really spent much time on OPA1611. I'll have to get back to you on a later time.
  


nmatheis said:


> Did you check to see if it's cheaper to order from akizukidenshi.com and have shipment prepared by tenso.com? I got the Muses for about half what Mouser was asking by going that route, but I live in the US so YMMV.


 
  
 If you are ordering only one MUSES, the price comes out relative close between the two, with Mouser maybe $5~$10 more expensive (Mouser is around $75~85, where akizukidenshi+Tenso come out $35 + $15 buying fee + $15 EMS = $70). But Mouser is probably much faster on shipping and you won't need to pay taxes as it has been covered (just be sure you pay with local currency instead of USD). But if you are ordering two and more, buying from Japan is always cheaper as you are only going to pay the buying and EMS once regardless of quantity.


----------



## furyagain

i  dont mind paying abit more  as long as i can get the op amp quick.
  
 i do plan to get the muses02 too  may be sometime next month.
  
 i really do wonder,,
 does it really worth getting op amp like muses01 for e12 diy, which push the whole  device to around 300 dollars,
 will one get a better portable amp if paying 300for something else instead.


----------



## nmatheis

clieos said:


> Haven't really spent much time on OPA1611. I'll have to get back to you on a later time.
> 
> 
> If you are ordering only one MUSES, the price comes out relative close between the two, with Mouser maybe $5~$10 more expensive (Mouser is around $75~85, where akizukidenshi+Tenso come out $35 + $15 buying fee + $15 EMS = $70). But Mouser is probably much faster on shipping and you won't need to pay taxes as it has been covered (just be sure you pay with local currency instead of USD). But if you are ordering two and more, buying from Japan is always cheaper as you are only going to pay the buying and EMS once regardless of quantity.



Correct, but I was figuring buy from Japan and get both MUSES01 and 02 for around the same price as one of them shipped from Mouser - much more economical. Thanks for tipping me off to akizukidenshi.com, by the way. I never would've ordered MUSES otherwise.


----------



## dattorro

>


 
  


mistahbungle said:


> I think the process needs to be documented & described in detail as well if you're doing this with trying to sway Fiio to continue production of these devices for the reason you've stated in mind. The pics are fine in themselves, and sure, you can say 'Someone who knows what they're doing should be able to follow from pic to pic', but let's face it, documenting any detailed process like this is a big plus.


 
  
 Perhaps you could pick a few photos that you like and I could explain what is going on.


----------



## dattorro

k.t. said:


> May, I ask, what is the nature of the modification that helps hearing impaired people? Is it just a volume boost?
> 
> I'm not quite sure what the mod does over the regular amp. Just curious.


 
  
 The mod is an inverse filter that compensates for an individual's hearing loss.
 It has to be fit like a pair of eyeglasses.


----------



## MistahBungle

I didn't mean document it for me as such, I meant document it period (the whole process) given you want to try and convince Fiio to keep making them (bearing in mind this device is meant to be a limited run). I figure without the process documented, your chances of convincing Fiio to do this (quite low regardless given this is a limited edition, but you never know I guess) are probably close to zero. 

I'd also recommend you forward your pics and the documented process to Fiio directly, James used to spend a fair bit of time in this thread, but he's had personal stuff to deal with of late & hasn't been around as much, Fiio may not end up being aware of this mod you've done if you don't send them the docs/pics directly/if you leave it at just posting to this thread.



dattorro said:


> Perhaps you could pick a few photos that you like and I could explain what is going on.


----------



## furyagain

i have a problem,,
  
  
 Somehow i am having charging problem,
  when i plus it to the usb, it keep on blinding red, and then eventually it will go solid red,
 but when i use it, it will work for 30-45 sec, then stop and then blue light flash several time.
  
 anyone got that problem?
  
 Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

furyagain said:


> i have a problem,,
> 
> 
> Somehow i am having charging problem,
> ...


 
  
 Time to contact FiiO.


----------



## furyagain

i dont know if they will take care of this or not
  
 as i have already opened the seal and "filed" the case for muses01
  
 it is my fault, that i didn't even test the unit first before i opened it up and start the case filing.
 and rigjtbefore i first tested it, i changed the op amp to the 1611
  
 i wonder if they will say, OO you damaged the unit already, you are on your own now.


----------



## ClieOS

furyagain said:


> i dont know if they will take care of this or not
> 
> as i have already opened the seal and "filed" the case for muses01
> 
> ...


 
  
 They said warranty won't cover after the seal is broken, but they didn't say they won't help you repair it, even for a fee. Plus, there is no point guessing - just email them and see. Maybe they will consider it an exception and give it a warranty repair. You'll never know if you never asked.


----------



## renefg

Hi all,
  
 Trying to read all messages in this thread, from latest going backwards, just halfway through at page 50 so not sure if this question was already covered:
  
 Another newbie question, how does one completely remove the casing for grinding?  Does one just completely pull the entire inner board from the outer casing?
  
 Cheers,
 Rene


----------



## ClieOS

renefg said:


> Another newbie question, how does one completely remove the casing for grinding?  *Does one just completely pull the entire inner board from the outer casing?*


 
  
 Yes, with care and a little push from the battery side also helps.


----------



## renefg

Many thanks once again ClieOS!
  
 Also googled all your posts here the other day for a better learning experience


----------



## furyagain

I sent Fiio a Email about my bad E12 DIY,
  
 and I have just ordered a different one from the store..
  
 Just too bad.!!!! my MUSES01 is coming in today and I don't have a good E12 diy
 Errrrrrrr


----------



## jorge8

Hi everyone
 I joined the club and I need some help here. Does this BrownDog adapter with the OPA627 will work directly on the Fiio Diy without any soldering?
 thx
  
 http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx


----------



## jorge8

@ furyagain:    have you tried the reset button?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  and another charger?


----------



## Loquah

@jorge8 That adapter looks to be the same dimensions as the ones included from Fiio. Did you realise they provide a few empty adapters with the DIY? You don't need to buy an adapter unless you want a different brand or if you need more than the number supplied.


----------



## ClieOS

jorge8 said:


> Hi everyone
> I joined the club and I need some help here. Does this BrownDog adapter with the OPA627 will work directly on the Fiio Diy without any soldering?
> thx
> 
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx


 
  
 Also note that you can ONLY use BrownDog *dual*-channels SOIC to DIP8 adapter (*this) for E12DIY. The one you linked is for two *single* channel SOIC to DIP8 (singles-to-dual), and it will NOT fit inside E12DIY. Anytime you need to mount two single channel SOIC, you need to use the special adapter included with your E12DIY.


----------



## furyagain

oo my god... this is going  to be .... stupid....
 I just found out what happen to my E12 DIY...
  
  
 the battery didnt plug in tight!!!!!!!!!!
 i un screwed the metal plate that hold the connector, and then replug, then screw that plate back in!!
  
 it has been running for 10 min now... no shut down!!!!!!!!!!
  damn it
  
 I have ordered a second E12 DIY! lol
  
  
 i think this is going to be bad....i may go buy a muses02 also and plug that into my second E12 DIY>>>>>
 by the way i am using the E12 DIY now. with my cheap old HM-601 player,
 even with that bad player it still sound pretty decent with my alpha dog!


----------



## furyagain

second thought,,,, i will use  LME49720HA for my second E12 DIY


----------



## jorge8

@ loquah, I noticed, but I'm not a full diy'er. I don't have neither the equipment nor the skills to do a proper soldering job...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 @ClieOS Tyvm.


----------



## furyagain

ok, my e12 diy
  
 it still  doing the same auto shut down issue.
  
 it is a goner


----------



## furyagain

This is what Fiio replied
"
Yes, we will not provide the warranty service for the E12 DIY. If your E12 DIY is confirmed to be defective and you really want to have it repaired, then we may help you repair, but you should pay for the repair fee. If any inconvenience, pls understand!
"
I do understand, I can only say I am really unlucky, for getting a bad one.
I think I may not bother sending it in, which will cost me another 20-30 on shipping and then repair cost .

I will try to confirm if was the battery issue or not, 
If the battery is good , 
Atleast I can still keep the battery, the case


----------



## Reima

furyagain said:


> second thought,,,, i will use  LME49720HA for my second E12 DIY


 
 That's what I currently have in mine, it took a bit of modding to get it in the amp.


----------



## ClieOS

I have both the LME49720NA and HA (on adapter) as well. Can't really tell the difference much so I keep it simple with the NA.


----------



## furyagain

believe I know what happens to my first e12 diy
The charging function is not working.

As currently when I turn it on , It will not even stay on for 5 sec.

By the way , my second one just arrived


----------



## Shawn71

furyagain said:
			
		

> .believe I know what happens to my first e12 diy
> The charging function is not working.
> 
> As currently when I turn it on , It will not even stay on for 5 sec.?
> ...




Did you enquire FiiO about the labor charge involved? Is it a flat or its like labor + parts? I believe they charge a flat charge+shipping and send you the mother board kit,instead you send them the defective as its not cost effective for both and also little more transit time involved both ways......


----------



## furyagain

I sent them Email in the last two days, no reply yet.
  
 but i am enjoying the Second E12 DIY which works great
 I am going to burn it in abit tonight.
  
 I have the Muses01 in the E12 today.
 it works great>
 Hope my first E12 Diy can be fixed,
 as i do want to have two E12 DIY ,, so i dont need to open it again...one with Muses01 and the other one with 49720.


----------



## furyagain

with so many DAP coming ,
 which one will work better with E12 Diy?
  
 X5?X3? DX50 ?


----------



## jorge8

I guess that I've tried all the choices (except opa604).  My choice is opa1611 + buf634.
 For piano solo I still prefer E12 Montblanc.
 The buf634 is a clear winner for me.
 opa: also liked the AD797. However it gives more air and better separation at cost of the right tone. A piano should sound like a piano and not a toy... 
  
 I'm using the amps to drive HD650. 
 Sources: ipod nano 2G w/ rockbox and iphone4 w/ onkyo HD player.
  
 Listening to the cx300 direct from source makes me think that I'm still short of power to drive the HD650...
  
 Wondering if opa627 or LME49720 or Muses add something.
  
 Or it's time to think about desktop amp - compass2 or violectric hpa v90.


----------



## ClieOS

furyagain said:


> with so many DAP coming ,
> which one will work better with E12 Diy?
> 
> X5?X3? DX50 ?


 

 Define 'better'?
  
 Well, as far as which one benefits the most, I'll say DX50 >= X3 > X5. DX50 benefits the most because it has the weakest amp section, which by far is its biggest weakness IMO and why an good amp really helps. X3 benefits almost as much / slightly less because while it doesn't lack power, it can benefit from the more neutral presentation of E12DIY. X5 benefits the least as it is both neutral and well powered, so there is less for E12DIY to contribute - but this is not to say X5 + E12DIY isn't wonderful sounding as well.


----------



## furyagain

sorry i should be asking , between these three dap dx50,x3,x5
 which one will sound the best with e12 diy,
 just the way the dap that i am using is the hm601
  
 the 601 sound ok with e12 and it works fine , but does it worth it for me to get one of those new dap?
  
 the main headphone with this setting will be the alpha dog


----------



## ClieOS

furyagain said:


> sorry i should be asking , between these three dap dx50,x3,x5
> which one will sound the best with e12 diy,
> just the way the dap that i am using is the hm601
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll say X5 will be the most noticeable upgrade over HM601, followed by DX50, then X3, which has the most similar sound to HM601, but edge out over overall power and a little on transparency.


----------



## renefg

Hi all,
  
 Does anybody know if the Muses from Amazon.com which are being sold by CPM Accessories are authentic?
  
 Also am a bit surprised that the Muses 01 is priced at $49.99 but Muses 02 is prices at $99.99 (2 pcs set however).
  
 Don't we need just a single piece for either Muses 01 or 02?
  
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AYR2TMQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2FFD695D3CUYF
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B08AYIE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2FFD695D3CUYF
  
 Many thanks!
 Rene


----------



## ClieOS

Seems like they are selling a lot of random parts on Amazon. I really won't put much stock on them.


----------



## renefg

Many thanks once again ClieOS! If it were not for your answer I would've ordered the Muses from Amazon.


----------



## yang2910

Still the best to get all these from specialised shop like Mouser or Akizudenshi


----------



## nmatheis

yang2910 said:


> Still the best to get all these from specialised shop like Mouser or Akizudenshi



If you're in the US and plan on getting Muses01 and Muses02 at the same time, ordering from Akizukidenshi is much cheaper, but you probably need to order through Tenso.


----------



## renefg

Many thanks once again!
  
 Another newbie question: it takes a while to charge the E12 DIY on a standard USB port, was wondering if I can use either an ipad 2  or similar (iphone 5d, ipad air) charger to charge it instead?  Is it safe?  Will it reduce the life of the battery given possible fast charging?


----------



## MistahBungle

renefg said:


> Many thanks once again!
> 
> Another newbie question: it takes a while to charge the E12 DIY on a standard USB port, was wondering if I can use either an ipad 2  or similar (iphone 5d, ipad air) charger to charge it instead?  Is it safe?  Will it reduce the life of the battery given possible fast charging?




Yes, yes, no.


----------



## Shawn71

mistahbungle said:


> Yes, yes, no.




big YES.......fast charger are rated higher Amps to normal ones,say like 2,3,4 amps against 1A or 500mA. Thats about it and wont affect any life span of the batteries.


----------



## Loquah

Hey all,
  
 I have found my BUF634 to be slightly more prone to noise than the LME49600. Has anyone else found this or might my BUF634 have a poor solder joint or something?
  
 Also, has anyone else found the BUF634 to have slightly better detail retrieval than the LME49600? I thought I preferred the LME49600, but was blown away listening to the BUF634 (all with OPA1611) the other day and am now wondering if I was too quick to judge it. The trouble is I can't tell if it was just an "in the moment" type of thing.


----------



## ClieOS

Didn't notice that. I did however notice on several occasions that there can be a lot of noise if the opamp isn't sitting right in the socket. It can appear to be fine by just looking at it but it tends to sound much more grainy and edgy (and also show up on RMAA), unless I unplug / replug it.
  
 I don't like LME49600 as much as BUF634. While the former does sound more transparent, it also a bit more edgy than I like. If I want the same (and arguably better) transparency without the edginess, I'll stick to HA-5002 instead.


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> I don't like LME49600 as much as BUF634. While the former does sound more transparent, it also a bit more edgy than I like. If I want the same (and arguably better) transparency without the edginess, I'll stick to HA-5002 instead.


 
  
 I know what you mean. When I switched over to the LME49600, I thought the same. It still sounds good, but there's a slight wiriness/thinness there.
  
 Gonna switch back to BUF634 to see how it strikes me again.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> If you really want to roll opamp but limited in budget, I reckon either MUSES01 or 02 will be enough. 01 will be more for texture and fullness while 02 is more for soundstage and detail. There are other opamp that sounds really good in E12DIY as well, but not necessary better than MUSES. That way you only invest an extra $50~$100 and you already have one of the best sounding portable amps around. If you want something very neutral, either NJM5532, NE5532, LM4562 or LME49720 will give you some of the cleanness sound with very little cost. Caps mod is relatively minor and you can skip it if you want to. Not that the stock Wima is bad in anyway as even polyester is considered by most to be much less coloured than the majority of electrolytic caps.
> 
> I have said it elsewhere and I'll repeat it here: don't buy into the idea of higher price = better SQ. Many of the $500+ portable amps don't outperform some of the best sub-$500 portable amps around. Many of them are only expensive because their makers known they can get away with that kind of pricing, not because they are better in anyway. If E12DIY isn't a FiiO but from some smart Western businessman, it would have been priced for $600+ easily.


 
  
 ClieOS, you posted this very helpful comment a while back and I'm wondering now if I should try either of the NJM/NE5532 op amps. I love the OPA1611s and have an LM4562 which I haven't yet tried in the DIY. How would you compare the sound of the NJM/NE5532 options to the OPA1611?
  
 Also, can anyone tell me what impact changing the Wima caps for the supplied Tonerex caps would have? (I.e. changed signature, frequency response, etc.)


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> ClieOS, you posted this very helpful comment a while back and I'm wondering now if I should try either of the NJM/NE5532 op amps. I love the OPA1611s and have an LM4562 which I haven't yet tried in the DIY. How would you compare the sound of the NJM/NE5532 options to the OPA1611?
> 
> Also, can anyone tell me what impact changing the Wima caps for the supplied Tonerex caps would have? (I.e. changed signature, frequency response, etc.)


 
  
 The most noticeable difference between OPA1611 and NJM5532 is that background warmth. With OPA1611, the background is nicely filled and you won't notice much 'empty space' between all the instruments and vocals. It kind of gives it a sense of fullness / richness. With NJM5532 however, those background space is mostly empty and dark, like there is nothing in between the instruments and vocals. All you get is the cleanest and purest form of the presentation.
  
 The most noticeable of cap change, especially from film to electrolytic caps, is that you lose some of the tiny sparkle / sharpness that adds to the micro detail but at the same time, you gain a sense of smoothness and space. The frequency response shouldn't change unless you are using too small a capacitance.


----------



## Loquah

Thanks ClieOS, great explanations!


----------



## K.T.

k.t. said:


> I know what you mean. When I switched over to the LME49600, I thought the same. It still sounds good, but there's a slight wiriness/thinness there.
> 
> Gonna switch back to BUF634 to see how it strikes me again.




Well, both have their strengths. 

When I switched back to BUF634, the sound smoothed out noticeably. For the cans and IEMs I was using, it was too smooth. Despite the slight wireless/thinness of the LME49600, I did miss it's immediacy with those particular cans/IEMs.

However, the BUF634 does sound great with some other cans I have, like the Thinksound ON1. Really good.

BUF634 seems to mate well with cans or IEMs that tend to have hard, bright, or prominent treble. 

LME49600 leans the other way - a better match for phones/IEMs with more subdued treble.

But treble is not the only aspect in which the two chips differ, though that is the most obvious area of matching.

So it's really a matter of synergy. 

Luckily, guys, we have choices. Some good ones. Shows that there is not one blanket solution for all headphones. 

Getting it the source, amplification, and cans matched right can make or break the listening experience.


----------



## JamesFiiO

Last week, we had have some customers from JRC and they bring their MUSES01/02 and testing it with us together. they are impressed by the E12DIY and we both agreed it is a very good amp to check out the very small difference between OP or Buf.
  
 also most good op, amp need very high power supply otherwise it just sound the same.
  
  
 BTW, they told me that most fake Muses are remarked from LM4560.


----------



## JamesFiiO

to help people discuss which combo is best, just add a poll.


----------



## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> Last week, we had have some customers from JRC and they bring their MUSES01/02 and testing it with us together. they are impressed by the E12DIY and we both agreed it is a very good amp to check out the very small difference between OP or Buf.
> 
> also most good op, amp need very high power supply otherwise it just sound the same.
> 
> ...


 
 i bought mine fr taobao and paid only like $20 cheaper and end up it's a fake...lucky i got my refund...
  
 now i am enjoying the muses01 alot


----------



## ClieOS

JRC is visiting FiiO? Nice!
  
 Definitely agreed that the MUSES sounds great on the E12DIY. Won't mind to see a future reversion of E12 that based on them, though they are a bit expesive.


----------



## audiofreakie

Checking Muses 01 at akizukidenshi site. What is the diference between Muses 01 and Muses 01D, are they same?


----------



## Loquah

I received my NJM5532DD today and they are very transparent as suggested by ClieOS. I miss the bass impact of the OPA1611 slightly, but the 5532s are exceedingly clean.
  
@ClieOS how would you compare the NJM5532 to the Muses01 and Muses02?


----------



## Loquah

loquah said:


> I received my NJM5532DD today and they are very transparent as suggested by ClieOS. I miss the bass impact of the OPA1611 slightly, but the 5532s are exceedingly clean.
> 
> @ClieOS how would you compare the NJM5532 to the Muses01 and Muses02?


 
  
 On further listening, what I thought was less bass in the 5532 is actually a less-pronounced mid-range. Now I'm not sure which one I prefer. The 5532 is a bit more spacious, but might be placing me too far from the music while the OPA1611 is a little more closed in, but instruments have more presence and weight.


----------



## yang2910

Should add nice OPamps like Muse 01 02 or maybe OPA627 to the poll. So that the owners can have a brief ideas on what kind of nice OP amps we can buy again to pair with this E12DiY. And also can see what kind of more sorts of opamps + buf combo we can go. Personally I love the Muse01 + Buf634 Combo


----------



## Loquah

yang2910 said:


> Should add nice OPamps like Muse 01 02 or maybe OPA627 to the poll. So that the owners can have a brief ideas on what kind of nice OP amps we can buy again to pair with this E12DiY. And also can see what kind of more sorts of opamps + buf combo we can go. Personally I love the Muse01 + Buf634 Combo


 
  
 Agree that it'd be great to see, but it might be confusing because of the need to modify the case and because the current list is just the chips provided with the retail package.
  
 Is there a way we can differentiate or create a separate "aftermarket" op amp poll?


----------



## ClieOS

audiofreakie said:


> Checking Muses 01 at akizukidenshi site. What is the diference between Muses 01 and Muses 01D, are they same?


 
  
 I believe they are the same.
  


loquah said:


> I received my NJM5532DD today and they are very transparent as suggested by ClieOS. I miss the bass impact of the OPA1611 slightly, but the 5532s are exceedingly clean.
> 
> @ClieOS how would you compare the NJM5532 to the Muses01 and Muses02?


 
  
 I would say 02 is closer to 5532 - but 'close' is just a relative word. As you might have noticed, 5532 does sound different from any of the richer sounding opamp, and MUSES tends to be closer to richer sounding than cleaner sounding.


----------



## Chris J

Oh man, I wish would have picked up one!


----------



## DMax99

Is there any chance to order this now?


----------



## ClieOS

dmax99 said:


> Is there any chance to order this now?


 
  
 You can order it from some retailer. The price has gone up a bit since it is a limited run, but most are reasonable around $250 or so.


----------



## MistahBungle

dmax99 said:


> Is there any chance to order this now?




Noisy Motel still have them.


----------



## DMax99

Thanks guys 

299 seems quite a lot though.. Lol


----------



## Loquah

dmax99 said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 $299 is SO far under priced for this amp. Grab one - you won't regret it! It's actually the reason I'm selling my Tralucent T1 which retails for $280 and the E12DIY is more than $19 better.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> $299 is SO far under priced for this amp. Grab one - you won't regret it! It's actually the reason I'm selling my Tralucent T1 which retails for $280 and the E12DIY is more than $19 better.


 
  
 Agreed. You may however find it cheaper on TaoBao with oversea forwarding, but the saving will not be huge. Most likely around $10~$25.
  
 Also note that because you are in Australia, the $299 price tag from Noisy Motel will include tax, shipping fee and insurance.


----------



## Chris J

loquah said:


> $299 is SO far under priced for this amp. Grab one - you won't regret it! It's actually the reason I'm selling my Tralucent T1 which retails for $280 and the E12DIY is more than $19 better.




How does it compare to the Matrix Quattro amp?


----------



## JamesFiiO

yes, we will not produce E12DIY again cause it took us too many resource.


----------



## ClassicalViola

jamesfiio said:


> yes, we will not produce E12DIY again cause it took us too many resource.


 
 James, I really thank FiiO for all the effort put into producing the E12DIY! I purchased one from one of your authorized dealers on tmall few days ago and finally received it here in HK today. I am currently testing it with the FiiO X3 and the stock opamp and buffer combo. I must say that even the stock combo sounds great! Coming from listening through the headphone out of the X3, I feel that the E12DIY's AD8620 + BUF634 combo with the X3's DAC sounds pretty brilliant itself! Classical orchestral music sounds so much more detailed and has a wider soundstage... I am happy with my purchase! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 p/s: I actually ordered a Gold E12DIY but the seller sent me a Silver one. Not a big deal actually because silver looks pretty too! And after all, the sound is what matters the most!


----------



## K.T.

Does Noisy Motel only sell in New Zealand and Australia?
  
 I'm liking my DIY so much, I'm thinking about picking up another one. Anyone know a good source in the US?
  
 Yes, thank you James for making this cool opportunity available to us. It definitely comes from a love of the idea, and not from a profit motive.
  
 Stuff like this creates a lot of great user loyalty. I'll be coming back to FiiO in the future.
  
 Update: I did a quick search for US sellers and Amazon has the silver E12DIY for $249.95.
  
 There's also a third party seller through Amazon called ProStudio Sound & Music who has it for the same price. Since I pay sales tax directly through Amazon, I purchased a silver model through these guys (already own the gold). No sales tax.
  
 For those in Canada, there's a place called Headphonebar who sells it for $209.95 plus $5 shipping. That seems like a great price! Too bad they don't ship outside Canada.
  
 http://www.headphonebar.com/fiio-e12-diy/
  
 If anyone knows of a better price in the US, please let me know!


----------



## Loquah

chris j said:


> How does it compare to the Matrix Quattro amp?


 
  
 My Quattro is currently away being fixed (my fault), but they're hard to compare because the Quattro is balanced and has a 10 ohm output impedance (and is a desktop of course) so quite different. The Quattro sounds great in balanced operation, but only slightly better than the M-Stage in SE operation.
  
 I'll see if I can compare driving my FA-011 LEs with both amps when the Quattro comes home and let you know as best I can.


----------



## Loquah

k.t. said:


> Does Noisy Motel only sell in New Zealand and Australia?
> 
> I'm liking my DIY so much, I'm thinking about picking up another one. Anyone know a good source in the US?
> 
> ...


 
  
 They sell some products internationally, but it depends on the manufacturer / distribution agreements. Drop them a line - you might be lucky as I know there were 2 left the other day.


----------



## imackler

loquah said:


> They sell some products internationally, but it depends on the manufacturer / distribution agreements. Drop them a line - you might be lucky as I know there were 2 left the other day.


 
 They definitely don't ship to the US. I tried


----------



## ClassicalViola

I saw the Headphonebar offer too! Very attractive price.. Too bad they only ship within Canada.. Lucky people in Canada!
  
 Again, I guess it's still worth it with any price tag within US$300.


----------



## Marco Angel

To bar km un México, im willing to buy an e12diy but have found none who sells


----------



## renefg

Hi all,
  
 Still another newbie question.
  
 Am I trying to order the Muse 01 and 02 through akizukidenshi.com since I have a friend visiting there but I am having difficulty ordering since I am basically just trying to google translate into english every phrase in the japanese website.
  
 Is there an easier way to do this?
  
 Many thanks as usual.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## doki81

renefg said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Still another newbie question.
> 
> ...


 
 i am buying it thru a japan buying service  just them what are u buying they will help you...


----------



## ClieOS

doki81 said:


> i am buying it thru a japan buying service  just them what are u buying they will help you...


 
  
 Tenso.com buying service, just to be clear.


----------



## renefg

Ok many thanks once again for the very prompt replies, am now at Tenso.com 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Paulo83

Is there anywhere in the UK that an e12diy can be picked up?


----------



## MistahBungle

paulo83 said:


> Is there anywhere in the UK that an e12diy can be picked up?




Try the UK distributors on this page.


----------



## ClassicalViola

I'm curious about the serial number on the E12DIYs. I've heard that there are only a total 2000 units worldwide, 1500 being silver and 500 being gold? Does the serial number go from 0001 to 1500 for the silver units, and then 1501 to 2000 for the gold units; or do they start again from 0001 to 0500 for the gold ones? Anyone got an idea about this? My silver unit is 08XX.


----------



## Paulo83

mistahbungle said:


> Try the UK distributors on this page.[/quote
> 
> 
> Unfortunately they only seen to have the standard e122


----------



## K.T.

classicalviola said:


> I'm curious about the serial number on the E12DIYs. I've heard that there are only a total 2000 units worldwide, 1500 being silver and 500 being gold? Does the serial number go from 0001 to 1500 for the silver units, and then 1501 to 2000 for the gold units; or do they start again from 0001 to 0500 for the gold ones? Anyone got an idea about this? My silver unit is 08XX. :rolleyes:




My gold unit is SN. 01XX so I would assume the gold have their own numbering. Unless the gold occupy the first 500 numbers.

Wow, 2000 units is not that many. There were more than 2000 people in my highschool. So it's crazy to think that's all the E12DIYs that exist worldwide.

And yet you can still buy them new from distributors. I wonder how many are accounted for, and how many are still unsold.


----------



## MistahBungle

paulo83 said:


> Unfortunately they only seen to have the standard e122




Then you're SOOL with regard to getting one locally (unless you get one 2nd hand from here/little e big B/etc). Try the other distributors in other parts of the world on that page; I know for a fact Noisy Motel here in Australia still have a few, but they may not be able to ship to the UK due to distribution agreement with Fiio, and if they can, you're going to be paying a bit in shipping.


----------



## ClieOS

There isn't any distribution agreement on the E12DIY as far as I know, given it is just a limited run. There are quite a few on Taobao, but with forwarding service and such, it will be close to USD$300 mark...(If you don't get taxed locally).


----------



## audiofreakie

Wow, first time it arrive on my country it cost IDR 2,400,000 (209 USD), now it cost IDR 2,900,000 (253 USD). Think to buy it, but already purchase M8


----------



## defguy

Listening to the X3/E12 DIY combo through my HD 600's right now, works amazingly well. I really didn't expect that at all


----------



## Audio Reiner

I think about purchase a E12 diy for combination with my X5 and my AKG K3003 in ears. Will it be a good deal or not? The K 3003 have only 8 Ohms.


----------



## Loquah

audio reiner said:


> I think about purchase a E12 diy for combination with my X5 and my AKG K3003 in ears. Will it be a good deal or not? The K 3003 have only 8 Ohms.


 
  
 I would say it is a great idea because the X5's line out is noticeably better than the HPO and the E12 is a great amp with the same footprint as the X5 so they pair really well physically and sonically. E12 output impedance is low enough to have no troubles with the 8 ohm K3003. The only thing to double-check (depending on sensitivity of the K3003) is how much useful range you have on the volume control. I.e. check that it's not "loud" or "off". With the UM Miracles I have a useable volume range of around 10-40% on the E12DIY when using the X5 line-out


----------



## ClassicalViola

defguy said:


> Listening to the X3/E12 DIY combo through my HD 600's right now, works amazingly well. I really didn't expect that at all


 
 Do you use the E12DIY on high/low gain with your HD 600 and at what volume range?


----------



## defguy

classicalviola said:


> Do you use the E12DIY on high/low gain with your HD 600 and at what volume range?


 
 I switched it to high gain, volume at maybe 10:00?  Didn't try it at low gain.


----------



## ClassicalViola

defguy said:


> I switched it to high gain, volume at maybe 10:00?  Didn't try it at low gain.


 
 Try switching it to low gain and at a higher volume (maybe 3-4 o'clock) to match what you get at high gain and 10 o'clock, and then see what differences in the overall tonality/balance you get between these two different settings.


----------



## defguy

classicalviola said:


> Try switching it to low gain and at a higher volume (maybe 3-4 o'clock) to match what you get at high gain and 10 o'clock, and then see what differences in the overall tonality/balance you get between these two different settings.


 
     It sounds a little edgier with the gain on low and the volume cranked up, like it's starting to clip a little. I prefer it on high gain with the 600's


----------



## K.T.

Hey, so I finally plugged in my new silver E12DIY (it's my second E12DIY. I have a gold one from the initial preorder). Paired with my Beyer DT770 Pro 250 it sounds fantastic.
  
 I'm actually shocked because for a long time I considered the DT770 Pro my biggest fail in terms of a headphone purchase. They sounded recessed, distant, and uninvolving, and the treble just killed my ears. I wrote it off as a loss.
  
 Paired with the stock E12DIY, however, it sounds great!
  
 Treble is still slightly tipped up, but not nearly as objectionable as before. There's a terrific sense of space, air, and openness, and the presentation is really engaging.
  
 Funny, because when got my first E12DIY, the stock chip didn't blow me away. I recall it was good, very competent, but not great.
  
 Well, with the DT770, it's pretty darned special. 
  
 Chalk it up to good synergy. I'm hesitant to change a thing currently, but I'll be itching to try out the other chips soon.


----------



## vayz

Hello all or maybe james can help, i'm asking for any guidance or combination that is ideal for X5 ?  especially again my little setup
  
 I plan to pickup E12 DIY and use this setup for X5+E12 DY+ HS6 m2m+TF10p/HD650.
  
  
 Regards.
 Vayz91


----------



## Loquah

vayz said:


> Hello all or maybe james can help, i'm asking for any guidance or combination that is ideal for X5 ?  especially again my little setup
> 
> I plan to pickup E12 DIY and use this setup for X5+E12 DY+ HS6 m2m+TF10p/HD650.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Do you mean the combination of buffer and op amp?


----------



## vayz

loquah said:


> Do you mean the combination of buffer and op amp?


 

 Yes, it's the buffer and op amp combination, wishing to hear a guidance to create a best synergy with my eqs, if it's still the OPA1611+LME49600 than think i'll take the regular E12 without DIY since the price is 80$ difference. but since my local agent has the stock with old price ($200) i think i'll consider and learn to tinker(i'm such a newbie for this) for the SQ that match my rigs


----------



## MistahBungle

vayz said:


> Yes, it's the buffer and op amp combination, wishing to hear a guidance to create a best synergy with my eqs, if it's still the OPA1611+LME49600 than think i'll take the regular E12 without DIY since the price is 80$ difference. but since my local agent has the stock with old price ($200) i think i'll consider and learn to tinker(i'm such a newbie for this) for the SQ that match my rigs





I bought the JDS C5 (on the basis of price/relative SQ) after auditioning a couple of portable amps including the E12DIY, though the possibilities with component swapping on the latter really appealed to me & was playing on my mind after (almost as soon as I left the store).

End result was I bought the E12DIY as well a few days later, and haven't regretted it one little bit 

Honestly, if you like tinkering, get it  The supplied components will keep you busy for a while so far as combinations are concerned, and with the supplied adapters, you have almost endless possibilities with what opamps/buffers you can put in it.


----------



## Fiiorless

vayz said:


> Yes, it's the buffer and op amp combination, wishing to hear a guidance to create a best synergy with my eqs, if it's still the OPA1611+LME49600 than think i'll take the regular E12 without DIY since the price is 80$ difference. but since my local agent has the stock with old price ($200) i think i'll consider and learn to tinker(i'm such a newbie for this) for the SQ that match my rigs


 
 Hi, I have tried the supplied combinations and the OPA1611 + LME49600 was my clear preference. However swapping the 1611 for TI LME49990's is a significantly better and more enjoyable sound to me on all the headphones I have tried. There is a moderate hit on battery life but the result is well worth it. They are not expensive chips and the resulting sound has had three of my audiophile friends track down E12DIY's to replicate that combination. Two of them already had far more expensive amps. Do you know if your local agent has any gold units left? I am looking for a second one for my daughter and would prefer a different colour to the silver I already have.


----------



## Loquah

fiiorless said:


> Hi, I have tried the supplied combinations and the OPA1611 + LME49600 was my clear preference. However swapping the 1611 for TI LME49990's is a significantly better and more enjoyable sound to me on all the headphones I have tried. There is a moderate hit on battery life but the result is well worth it. They are not expensive chips and the resulting sound has had three of my audiophile friends track down E12DIY's to replicate that combination. Two of them already had far more expensive amps. Do you know if your local agent has any gold units left? I am looking for a second one for my daughter and would prefer a different colour to the silver I already have.


 
  
 How would you describe the difference between 1611s and 49990s?


----------



## Fiiorless

loquah said:


> How would you describe the difference between 1611s and 49990s?


 
 I expected it to be subtle but it is not, there is more detail, the bass is better controlled, especially on low impedance headphones and it becomes possible to listen to less than perfect tracks more enjoyably for me anyway because the problems while still there no longer mask the music. On enclosed dynamic headphones with the 49990's cymbals especially sound like the real thing instead of sounding a bit like they have a comb filter applied . I was very surprised at the difference, there is some sort of synergy between the 49990 and the 49600 that works really well. It's a cheap option and well worth trying if you are looking for an uncoloured analytical sound. I master tracks professionally and may be listening a little differently because of that but using this combination lets me clearly hear the difference between different up sampling settings in Izotope Rx 3 for the first time.


----------



## Loquah

fiiorless said:


> I expected it to be subtle but it is not, there is more detail, the bass is better controlled, especially on low impedance headphones and it becomes possible to listen to less than perfect tracks more enjoyably for me anyway because the problems while still there no longer mask the music. On enclosed dynamic headphones with the 49990's cymbals especially sound like the real thing instead of sounding a bit like they have a comb filter applied . I was very surprised at the difference, there is some sort of synergy between the 49990 and the 49600 that works really well. It's a cheap option and well worth trying if you are looking for an uncoloured analytical sound. I master tracks professionally and may be listening a little differently because of that but using this combination lets me clearly hear the difference between different up sampling settings in Izotope Rx 3 for the first time.


 
  
 You mention analytical sound. Does that mean it's a bit cooler with less bass than OPA1611 or is it just more controlled do you think?


----------



## Fiiorless

loquah said:


> You mention analytical sound. Does that mean it's a bit cooler with less bass than OPA1611 or is it just more controlled do you think?


 
 If anything slightly more bass but a lot better controlled. It's not so much cooler as clearer, the various layers of crud that mask the sound don't go away but it's easier to hear through them because they are more separated from the music. Some Beatles tracks from the 60's have a clear bass line for the first time in my listening and I can follow what Paul was doing. I think we hear what we train ourselves to listen for so others experiences may vary but I can say in AB testing my daughter who plays orchestral and electric bass greatly preferred the 49990's to the 1611's when paired with the LME 49600's.


----------



## Deterministic NL

I have a question about the E12DIY and hope this is the right place to ask it.   Seems the favorite combo is the OPA1611+LME49600 and this is exactly how the much cheaper E12 Mont Blanc is configured.
  
 ​Is there a difference between the DIY and the Mont Blanc (other than the fact you get different opamps to try).  If I got a DIY and my favorite combo was the OPA1611+LME49600 would I be just as well off to order the Mont Blanc?


----------



## Fiiorless

I should say that in my experience the performance of an op amp like the LME49990 is very dependent on the circuit in which it is used, especially the layout and power supply. What works well in the E12DIY may not in a standard E12 and it's hard to predict, you would really have to try it out. All the E12DIY's that I have put LME49990 LME49600 combinations in have sounded identical to me but that does not mean it is a magic combination for other designs of headphone amplifier.


----------



## Fiiorless

deterministic nl said:


> I have a question about the E12DIY and hope this is the right place to ask it.   Seems the favorite combo is the OPA1611+LME49600 and this is exactly how the much cheaper E12 Mont Blanc is configured.
> 
> ​Is there a difference between the DIY and the Mont Blanc (other than the fact you get different opamps to try).  If I got a DIY and my favorite combo was the OPA1611+LME49600 would I be just as well off to order the Mont Blanc?


 
 I think there may be no more E12DIY's available for reasonable money in a day or so, the number for sale is dwindling very quickly. The E12 is a different circuit and layout to the E12DIY and according to fiio the E12DIY is a simpler layout they designed to sound better.  Many people have commented that the as delivered spec E12DIY sounds better than the E12 Mont Blanc and looking at the differences in circuit design that is not surprising.
 If you have the means I would consider ordering the DIY while you still can.


----------



## Deterministic NL

fiiorless said:


> I think there may be no more E12DIY's available for reasonable money in a day or so, the number for sale is dwindling very quickly. The E12 is a different circuit and layout to the E12DIY and according to fiio the E12DIY is a simpler layout they designed to sound better.  Many people have commented that the as delivered spec E12DIY sounds better than the E12 Mont Blanc and looking at the differences in circuit design that is not surprising.
> If you have the means I would consider ordering the DIY while you still can.


 
 Thank you.  Exactly the answer i was looking for.  I thought it was possible they were exactly the same and you sure answered that question.
  
 I'm intrigued with this Fiio gear.  I bought a Fiio E17 and just got it yesterday.  Blown away with it for the cost.


----------



## Fiiorless

deterministic nl said:


> I'm intrigued with this Fiio gear.  I bought a Fiio E17 and just got it yesterday.  Blown away with it for the cost.


 
 The E17 is great value, I have one here (and an embarrassing number of other DAC's) and have no hesitation in saying it sounds a lot better through the E12DIY. One thing worth trying if you haven't already is using it with software like Audirvana Plus on Mac or a good PC equivalent at 96k. The E17 performs very well at 96K even on up sampled material.


----------



## Deterministic NL

fiiorless said:


> The E17 is great value, I have one here (and an embarrassing number of other DAC's) and have no hesitation in saying it sounds a lot better through the E12DIY. One thing worth trying if you haven't already is using it with software like Audirvana Plus on Mac or a good PC equivalent at 96k. The E17 performs very well at 96K even on up sampled material.


 
 Ditto on the "embarrassing number of other DAC's" on this end. I have the EO9K coming.  I might look at picking up an E12DIY as well.  Why I have no idea as I have more audio kits than room for them.  I literally don't have room for one more yet for some reason I have a Schiit Modi and Magni in the mail right now.
  
 Thanks for the input!  Greatly appreciated.


----------



## Loquah

Can anyone help me to understand how to select potential buffer alternatives? Are they just op amps, but used differently?
  
 I've read that the combo of OPA827 and LT1364 is excellent (used in another setup), but I can't tell if either of these would suit the buffer role in the E12DIY.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Can anyone help me to understand how to select potential buffer alternatives? Are they just op amps, but used differently?
> 
> I've read that the combo of OPA827 and LT1364 is excellent (used in another setup), but I can't tell if either of these would suit the buffer role in the E12DIY.


 
  
 Opamp can be implemented as buffer with the right circuit, but not all of them has the right parameter to be used as buffer. In thie case, I don't find OPA827 or LT1364 being suitable. OPA827 open-loop Zo is a bit on the high side, and not that great on output current. LT1364 is dual channel, which means you need specially made adapter so it can be used on the single channel socket inside E12DIY.


----------



## Fiiorless

loquah said:


> Can anyone help me to understand how to select potential buffer alternatives? Are they just op amps, but used differently?
> 
> I've read that the combo of OPA827 and LT1364 is excellent (used in another setup), but I can't tell if either of these would suit the buffer role in the E12DIY.


 
 It depends a bit on the impedance of the headphones you want to drive. some op amps can supply 20-60 milliamps and suit efficient 600 ohm drivers but are not always able to drive low impedance lower efficiency drivers. A higher current buffer like the LME49600 can supply several hundred milliamps and by virtue of a considerably lower output resistance control lower impedance headphones more tightly. The buffer in an E12DIY can be an op amp or a purpose designed buffer. It really is down to personal preference as the combination of headphones, op amps and listeners vary enormously such that there is no best or perfect combination. If you want the lowest measurable distortion + noise and highest current supply and damping factor the 1611 + 49600 combination is the choice of the options supplied. Depending on source material, headphones, hearing and listening preferences other combination may be more enjoyable. It's what makes the listener happy that counts, sometimes technically the "best" headphone, DAC whatever is not the one that is most comfortable or least fatiguing. If we chase the best possible result it can be down a rabbit hole that involve a great deal of money to listen to your system rather than enjoy your music. Try combinations of op amps and buffers others enjoy and use what makes the music work for you personally.


----------



## vayz

mistahbungle said:


> I bought the JDS C5 (on the basis of price/relative SQ) after auditioning a couple of portable amps including the E12DIY, though the possibilities with component swapping on the latter really appealed to me & was playing on my mind after (almost as soon as I left the store).
> 
> End result was I bought the E12DIY as well a few days later, and haven't regretted it one little bit
> 
> Honestly, if you like tinkering, get it  The supplied components will keep you busy for a while so far as combinations are concerned, and with the supplied adapters, you have almost endless possibilities with what opamps/buffers you can put in it.


 
  
 Darn you got me now, i've ordered it for now lol, thanks for your input and hope so for your next teacher-noob guidance
  
 Quote:


fiiorless said:


> Hi, I have tried the supplied combinations and the OPA1611 + LME49600 was my clear preference. However swapping the 1611 for TI LME49990's is a significantly better and more enjoyable sound to me on all the headphones I have tried. There is a moderate hit on battery life but the result is well worth it. They are not expensive chips and the resulting sound has had three of my audiophile friends track down E12DIY's to replicate that combination. Two of them already had far more expensive amps. Do you know if your local agent has any gold units left? I am looking for a second one for my daughter and would prefer a different colour to the silver I already have.


 
  Hello, thanks for your advice. yes i've ordered the E12 DIY for now and still in process of ordering LME49990 from other seller. Just to make sure we only need 1 LME49990 op amp and didn't need to solder for this LME49990 rite? (i mean it's swapable like the stock op-amp?) I'll love to hear your guidance as your experience is one of the reason i choose this amp for now 
  
 Oh, and about the golden E12DIY i've asked my local agent, yes he does have it but i dunno about overseas fee. Here's the link http://www.dontblameyourears.com/277-fiio-12-diy-headphone-amplifier-silver.html, you can contact him via messenger/ym or maybe email them for overseas delivery., The price is 2.450.000 IDR which is equivalent to a little over 200 $


----------



## ClieOS

vayz said:


> Hello, thanks for your advice. yes i've ordered the E12 DIY for now and still in process of ordering LME49990 from other seller.* Just to make sure we only need 1 LME49990 op amp and didn't need to solder for this LME49990 rite?* (i mean it's swapable like the stock op-amp?) I'll love to hear your guidance as your experience is one of the reason i choose this amp for now
> 
> Oh, and about the golden E12DIY i've asked my local agent, yes he does have it but i dunno about overseas fee. Here's the link http://www.dontblameyourears.com/277-fiio-12-diy-headphone-amplifier-silver.html, you can contact him via messenger/ym or maybe email them for overseas delivery., The price is 2.450.000 IDR which is equivalent to a little over 200 $


 
  
 Since it only available in single channel SOIC, you'll definitely need two LME49990 and will have to solder them onto the adapter.


----------



## Deterministic NL

I just took a stab at buying a Muses02 from Amazon Japan.  I am a civilian stationed at Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni.  Price was just over $30
  
 The one customer review on the page says it comes from Okinawa and could be suspect.  The add says it comes from JRC.  We will see.  If it turns out good I'll report back.
  
 http://www.amazon.co.jp/MUSES02/dp/B00HEGAKJO/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Opamp can be implemented as buffer with the right circuit, but not all of them has the right parameter to be used as buffer. In thie case, I don't find OPA827 or LT1364 being suitable. OPA827 open-loop Zo is a bit on the high side, and not that great on output current. LT1364 is dual channel, which means you need specially made adapter so it can be used on the single channel socket inside E12DIY.


 
  
 Cool. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Deterministic NL

I cracked the code on another place as well. Akizukidenshi in Japan.  Man it was tough but Chrome browser translated enough I could place an order.  This time I ordered a MUSES01 and they will deliver it right to my home in a couple days.
  
 If I easily crack the code on this I'm not averse to helping somebody else but let me work through all this first.  It is currently a holiday week in Japan and I of course aren't sure I'm not going to receive knock offs although I know this shop from Akihabara.  It's famous.  I doubt they sell knockoffs. 
  
 http://akizukidenshi.com/catalog/g/gI-03416/


----------



## Fiiorless

Hi again. I just heard back from Don't Blame Your Ears:
  


> Hello,
> 
> Sorry, we didnt accept international order for fiio products.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Is there any way I could send you the money to buy a gold one and post it? I am happy to pay for your time. If it's not convenient I understand, there just isn't another gold one I can find anywhere but it is not the end of the world.


----------



## Peter_S

nmatheis said:


> Did you check to see if it's cheaper to order from akizukidenshi.com and have shipment prepared by tenso.com? I got the Muses for about half what Mouser was asking by going that route, but I live in the US so YMMV.




Are there any people interested in making a group order for Muses using the method outlined above? It seems like the more we order the cheaper they will be, and they will be much cheaper than buying here in the US. Folks in the USA, please let me know.


----------



## nmatheis

peter_s said:


> Are there any people interested in making a group order for Muses using the method outlined above? It seems like the more we order the cheaper they will be, and they will be much cheaper than buying here in the US. Folks in the USA, please let me know.




If I hadn't already ordered them, I'd be in...


----------



## vayz

clieos said:


> Since it only available in single channel SOIC, you'll definitely need two LME49990 and will have to solder them onto the adapter.


 

 Thanks for the info, i've ordered from the seller two LME49990 for now, but for soldering... still figures and frustated for newbie like where to solder or even how to use the solder lol :s
  
  


fiiorless said:


> Hi again. I just heard back from Don't Blame Your Ears:
> 
> 
> Is there any way I could send you the money to buy a gold one and post it? I am happy to pay for your time. If it's not convenient I understand, there just isn't another gold one I can find anywhere but it is not the end of the world.


 

 I'd like to help.., i'd pm the detail about the shipping cost since i am afraid it can be charged for custom, i'm still asking around for alternatives :d


----------



## ClieOS

vayz said:


> Thanks for the info, i've ordered from the seller two LME49990 for now, but for soldering... still figures and frustated for newbie like where to solder or even how to use the solder lol :s


 
  
 If there is electronics repair shop near by, you might want to ask them, assuming if you don't want to do it yourself. While SMD soldering of this kind isn't very difficult, it does require some experience and not something you can usually do on first trial. Anyway, do clean the adapter board as there is a lot of solder flux on them.


----------



## Fiiorless

vayz said:


> Thanks for the info, i've ordered from the seller two LME49990 for now, but for soldering... still figures and frustated for newbie like where to solder or even how to use the solder lol :s


 


clieos said:


> If there is electronics repair shop near by, you might want to ask them, assuming if you don't want to do it yourself. While SMD soldering of this kind isn't very difficult, it does require some experience and not something you can usually do on first trial. Anyway, do clean the adapter board as there is a lot of solder flux on them.


 
  
 ClieOS give good advice, soldering the LME49990's to the adapter is best done by someone with the right tools and experience. If there is a local place that does PS3 and/or XBox repairs they should be able to help. It takes about 5-10 minutes to do, if you can, test the completed adapter in your E12DIY when they are done.


----------



## Reima

peter_s said:


> Are there any people interested in making a group order for Muses using the method outlined above? It seems like the more we order the cheaper they will be, and they will be much cheaper than buying here in the US. Folks in the USA, please let me know.


 
 I would be interested.


----------



## Peter_S

Good.  Even if it's just the two of us, I think we would still save substantial money.  I'm thinking of getting the 01 and the 02.  What about you?  Feel free to PM me.  I'm thinking of waiting a week or two, to see if there is any interested, and then making the arrangements.


----------



## Loquah

peter_s said:


> Good.  Even if it's just the two of us, I think we would still save substantial money.  I'm thinking of getting the 01 and the 02.  What about you?  Feel free to PM me.  I'm thinking of waiting a week or two, to see if there is any interested, and then making the arrangements.


 
  
 I'd be in if one of you would consider shipping a couple of chips to Australia for me...


----------



## Peter_S

loquah said:


> I'd be in if one of you would consider shipping a couple of chips to Australia for me...


 

 As long as you're willing to pay the extra shipping, shouldn't be a problem.  A small box to Australia?  Any idea how much shipping would cost?


----------



## Loquah

peter_s said:


> As long as you're willing to pay the extra shipping, shouldn't be a problem.  A small box to Australia?  Any idea how much shipping would cost?


 
  
 Not sure, but I can look into it and let you know.
  
 EDIT: Wow. Looked into it and standard mail using a padded envelope is >$46!! How much are the Muses when you buy locally? They're too expensive for me to buy from here so this could still be worth while depending on how much I save on the chips themselves buying with you guys.


----------



## HK_sends

I'm late to the game and am supposed to be getting a FiiO E12 DIY (and X5!) tomorrow.  I've read the last few references to the Muses02 OpAmps.  My question is, do they require a buffer?  If so, what's a good suggestion.  I apologize if these questions were already answered and I just missed them.
 Thanks in advance!
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 -HK sends


----------



## nmatheis

hk_sends said:


> I'm late to the game and am supposed to be getting a FiiO E12 DIY (and X5!) tomorrow.  I've read the last few references to the Muses02 OpAmps.  My question is, do they require a buffer?  If so, what's a good suggestion.  I apologize if these questions were already answered and I just missed them.
> Thanks in advance!
> Cheers!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Welcome to the club!  The Muses 01 and 02 just need to be plugged in, however the E12 DIY case is just a bit too tight for them which will lead to board flex... so you need to file down the inside of the case to allow for proper fit without stressing the board.  I'm *horrible* with tools and managed to accomplish it without damaging my E12 DIY


----------



## HK_sends

nmatheis said:


> Welcome to the club!  The Muses 01 and 02 just need to be plugged in, however the E12 DIY case is just a bit too tight for them which will lead to board flex... so you need to file down the inside of the case to allow for proper fit without stressing the board.  I'm *horrible* with tools and managed to accomplish it without damaging my E12 DIY


 
 Great!  Thanks very much for the info!  I am really looking forward to trying out the DIY (it may be a little while before I try the Muses though).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers and Thanks!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## ClassicalViola

nmatheis said:


> Welcome to the club!  The Muses 01 and 02 just need to be plugged in, however the E12 DIY case is just a bit too tight for them which will lead to board flex... so you need to file down the inside of the case to allow for proper fit without stressing the board.  I'm *horrible* with tools and managed to accomplish it without damaging my E12 DIY


 
 Hi. By "just need to be plugged in", do you mean that they don't require any form of soldering to attach them to the adapter PCBs provided with the E12DIY? Thanks in advance.


----------



## nmatheis

classicalviola said:


> Hi. By "just need to be plugged in", do you mean that they don't require any form of soldering to attach them to the adapter PCBs provided with the E12DIY? Thanks in advance.




Yup, the Muses I ordered are DIP-8 and are plug n play - no soldering required . Their legs are softer than the other opamps I ordered, so I'd emphasize caution against overworking them, though.


----------



## K.T.

I'll need to discuss the details, but I'm going to say I'm interested in getting on a group purchase of the MUSES 01 and 02.
  
 Let me know how things develop. I'd offer more assistance, but I'm way to busy at work currently. Hope you understand.


----------



## imackler

I'm interested but headfi mods have come down on group buys in the past: http://www.head-fi.org/f/51/group-buys 
  
 Did anyone check whether we have approval? Do we need it? I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but it may be worth checking...


----------



## CH23

when this was initially polled, i didn't have the money(or "need") for this, but now i've ordered it -and missed delivery.
  
 from tomorrow i'll be joining the X5+E12 masterrace 
  
 going to read through this thread now, i hope i won't have any questions after that


----------



## Reima

peter_s said:


> Good.  Even if it's just the two of us, I think we would still save substantial money.  I'm thinking of getting the 01 and the 02.  What about you?  Feel free to PM me.  I'm thinking of waiting a week or two, to see if there is any interested, and then making the arrangements.


 
 One of each.


----------



## ClieOS

hk_sends said:


> I'm late to the game and am supposed to be getting a FiiO E12 DIY (and X5!) tomorrow.  I've read the last few references to the Muses02 OpAmps.  My question is, do they require a buffer?  If so, what's a good suggestion.  I apologize if these questions were already answered and I just missed them.
> Thanks in advance!
> Cheers!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, they need buffer. But don't forget you already have 3 choices of buffer with the stock E12DIY selection.
  
 If you want the ultimate cleanness of sort, Intersil HA-5002 is probably one of the best option. However, it will need a special BrownDog adapter (search my previous post in this thread).


----------



## HK_sends

ch23 said:


> when this was initially polled, i didn't have the money(or "need") for this, but now i've ordered it -and missed delivery.
> 
> from tomorrow *i'll be joining the X5+E12 masterrace*
> 
> going to read through this thread now, i hope i won't have any questions after that


 
 I just did!  They've arrived and I confirmed their authenticity.  I can't wait to start playing with them!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers and all the Best!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## HK_sends

clieos said:


> Yes, they need buffer. But don't forget you already have 3 choices of buffer with the stock E12DIY selection.
> 
> If you want the ultimate cleanness of sort, Intersil HA-5002 is probably one of the best option. However, it will need a special BrownDog adapter (search my previous post in this thread).


 
 Thanks very much for the info!  I actually have a Brown Dog (adapter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) lying around somewhere from my Practical Devices XM6 amp rolling days.  I really look forward to trying out the different sounds.  Now I just have to rationalize to myself why I should still keep my iBasso DX90 after getting this (don't worry, I'm sure I'll come up with something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).  Plus, these are my first FiiO components but I had to get the X5 after being part of the review tour and had to try out the E12 DIY after reading about how it pairs well with the X5 (along with the customize-ability).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers and all the Best!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## CH23

Just finished reading the whole thread, and i have 3 questions (question 3 depends on the answer of question 2)

1: what exactly does the buffer do? Does it reduce the voltage, or smooths it out?


2: where in europe could i find a reliable seller of the Muse 1/2?

If not

3: Deterministic NL i take it you're dutch, if so, and if i can't find a european distributor, i would like to ask you something. I won't bother you if not needed and if you don't want to


----------



## Deterministic NL

ch23 said:


> Just finished reading the whole thread, and i have 3 questions (question 3 depends on the answer of question 2)
> 
> 1: what exactly does the buffer do? Does it reduce the voltage, or smooths it out?
> 
> ...


 
 If you're going to ask if I can get a Muses 01 and 02 and ship to you the answer would be yes, however I have one of each on order from two sources.  I think I bought a Muses 02 from somewhere on Amazon Japan and bought the 01 from Akizuikidenshi.
  
 Today is the last day of what they call Golden Week in Japan.  Everybody is back to work today.  I expect to get my orders delivered to my home either today or tomorrow or certainly by Friday latest. 
  
 I don't want to promise anyone anything unless I can confirm that the Muses are legit and as soon as I get them I'll post pics and try to determine authenticity through photos and some of the posts regarding such here. 
  
 Once I'm sure I have a good source I'm happy to help you get them.  I don't need to make any money but I don't want to lose any either.  I have access to the military postal system at MCAS Iwakuni Japan and can only ship USPS Priority. 
  
 But lets make sure I can get legit chips first.


----------



## CH23

deterministic nl said:


> If you're going to ask if I can get a Muses 01 and 02 and ship to you the answer would be yes, however I have one of each on order from two sources.  I think I bought a Muses 02 from somewhere on Amazon Japan and bought the 01 from Akizuikidenshi.
> 
> Today is the last day of what they call Golden Week in Japan.  Everybody is back to work today.  I expect to get my orders delivered to my home either today or tomorrow or certainly by Friday latest.
> 
> ...




The e12 broke my bank, so it's not something i'll ask of you very soon, but thank you for your help! I hope they'll be the real deal (for you, not for me)

Of course i'll cover all expenses it will take to get them from japan to the Netherlands.

Thank you,

--CH23


----------



## Deterministic NL

ch23 said:


> The e12 broke my bank, so it's not something i'll ask of you very soon, but thank you for your help! I hope they'll be the real deal (for you, not for me)
> 
> Of course i'll cover all expenses it will take to get them from japan to the Netherlands.
> 
> ...


 
 Didn't realize you were in Netherlands.  Might actually be cheaper for me to use the Japanese Postal system.  I'm leaving Japan in February to return to the US.


----------



## CH23

deterministic nl said:


> Didn't realize you were in Netherlands.  Might actually be cheaper for me to use the Japanese Postal system.  I'm leaving Japan in February to return to the US.




A Dutchman stationed in Japan returning to the USA. You are full of mysteries 

I'm sure i'll ask you within the next month.

I don't want to derail this thread about these chips any more now :X

I want to thank all of you, and especially ClieOS, who is in ghostmode, for the tips and advise.


are there any changes i could make to the e12DIY to give my Grado GR10 IEMs a bit more bass, without sacrificing their perfect mids and highs?


----------



## Deterministic NL

ch23 said:


> A Dutchman stationed in Japan returning to the USA. You are full of mysteries
> 
> I'm sure i'll ask you within the next month.
> 
> ...


 
 email me if you have any questions
  
 hagensiekerATmac.com


----------



## ClieOS

hk_sends said:


> Thanks very much for the info!  I actually have a Brown Dog (adapter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Note that not just any BrownDog adapter will work with HA-5002. You need to get the one specially made for HA-5002 or else you will likely burn-out something.


----------



## Loquah

I can't seem to find anywhere that sells the HA-5002. I can find a SOIC version (HA9P5002) from Digikey, but no-one seems to have the metal can version.


----------



## HK_sends

clieos said:


> Note that not just any BrownDog adapter will work with HA-5002. You need to get the one specially made for HA-5002 or else you will likely burn-out something.


 
 Oh, ok...I'll make sure I check before I try anything.  Right now I am happy playing with the amps/buffers that came with the DIY. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers and Thanks!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## nmatheis

hk_sends said:


> Oh, ok...I'll make sure I check before I try anything.  Right now I am happy playing with the amps/buffers that came with the DIY.
> Cheers and Thanks!
> -HK sends




Let us know your favorite. I'm working my way through the stock and additional opamps with BUF634. So far my favorite opamp is AS797.


----------



## HK_sends

nmatheis said:


> Let us know your favorite. I'm working my way through the stock and additional opamps with BUF634. So far my favorite opamp is AS797.


 
 Will do! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## Peter_S

loquah said:


> Not sure, but I can look into it and let you know.
> 
> EDIT: Wow. Looked into it and standard mail using a padded envelope is >$46!! How much are the Muses when you buy locally? They're too expensive for me to buy from here so this could still be worth while depending on how much I save on the chips themselves buying with you guys.


 

 That is crazy!  I can't fathom that!


----------



## Loquah

I know. It's really mental. The moment you ship anything other than a flat envelope you pay a small fortune...


----------



## Deterministic NL

Received my Muses01 from Akizukidenshi today.  Here are pics.  Came in a pack marked JRC and to my eyes looks real.  In some photos I took you can see copper on the pins.  Pretty sure this is okay although I'm happy to be set straight.  
  
 Belly photo shows a prominent YK even though my picture isn't so great.


----------



## CH23

Just received the E12DIY!

surprisingly it's a sub 200 number unit, silver model!

It's now charging, and i'll have to wait till friday to really properly enjoy it, as my GR10's are out to get custom earpieces on them.


----------



## renefg

My Muse01 and 02 just came in today as well.
  
 Finally my last newbie question, on which side will the IC be placed on the holder and what is the correct orientation when placed on the E12 DIY as well?
  
 Photos are also highly appreciated.  I can see the circle indentation on the chip, not sure how to use it as a guide.
  
 Many thanks in advance and once again I really appreciate all the kind support and guidance I have received from this thread.
  
 Cheers!
  
 - - -
  
 P.S. Oh just one additional side question, can anyone validate if the HS6 stacking kit work for the E12 DIY paired with an iPhone 5s?


----------



## ClieOS

deterministic nl said:


>


 
  
  


renefg said:


> My Muse01 and 02 just came in today as well.
> 
> Finally my last newbie question, on which side will the IC be placed on the holder and what is the correct orientation when placed on the E12 DIY as well?
> 
> ...


 
  
 See the above picture where the is a dent on one side of the socket (facing us)? That the same side where the 'dot' on the opamp should be.
  
 HS6 stacking kit is designed specifically for FiiO X5 only.


----------



## renefg

Many thanks once again for the patience and kind support as always ClieOS!
  
 Also assuming that the dent and dot should face on the front side of the E12 DIY too right? (just making sure i won't screw up on my precious muses)


----------



## ClieOS

renefg said:


> Many thanks once again for the patience and kind support as always ClieOS!
> 
> *Also assuming that the dent and dot should face on the front side of the E12 DIY too right?* (just making sure i won't screw up on my precious muses)


 
  
 Yes, and note that the buffer sockets are on opposite direction.


----------



## CH23

i've tried some of the possible combinations now

X5 - e12DIY - Grado PS1000

I had no idea that a different buffer or opamp could make such difference. Mind = blown.

Buffer BUF 634
AD8620 sounds very clean, in a good way. Pretty balanced, bass reaches out a bit, and highs are there, but not annoyingly so.
OPA 1611 punchy highs and bass, but it sounds dull.
OPA604 less bass than i'd like. 
AD797 nice bass but the mids are gone. Actually the mids seem to went up with the highs a bit.

Buffer LME49600
AD8620 gives clarity and nice bass response, so far my favourite combination.
OPA1611 sounds a bit muddy.
OPA604 sounds a bit muddy.
AD797 has a more clinical sound to it. More so than i'd like.

Buffer LMH6321
AD8620 gives clarity, but the mids have gone out the door.
OPA1611 to me it seems like the highs are very focused, but the bass is going all over the place. Basically muddy+sharp highs. 
OPA604 Balanced, my 2nd favourite combo
AD797 the bass is more there than mids or highs. No focus on the highs.


----------



## HK_sends

ch23 said:


> i've tried some of the possible combinations now
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 
Nice impressions! Thanks! 
Cheers!
-HK sends


----------



## K.T.

Thanks for posting your impressions of the chip combos, CH23. Your favorite combo, the AD8620 with LME49600, I'll have to try that.
  
 What phones are you using? I'm finding that there's synergy between all 3 components: opamp, buffer, and phones. So there's not necessarily one opamp/buffer combo that's perfect for everything. Makes it kind of complicated and fussy, but once you find a great combo, that's one to mark down.
  
 Btw, I just looked up the prices for MUSES 01 and 02 on Mouser. $74 each chip! 
  
That's a lot, but I'm almost tempted to do it.
  
I figure ordering from Mouser would almost certainly give me a genuine chip, and once I purchase a 01 and 02 for my two E12DIY amps, I won't be dabbling with the MUSES for anything else.
  
Somehow it seems worth the premium to know I'm getting the genuine thing, instead of worrying about it. I've got enough stuff to worry about in my work life.


----------



## CH23

k.t. said:


> Thanks for posting your impressions of the chip combos, CH23. Your favorite combo, the AD8620 with LME49600, I'll have to try that.
> 
> What phones are you using? I'm finding that there's synergy between all 3 components: opamp, buffer, and phones. So there's not necessarily one opamp/buffer combo that's perfect for everything. Makes it kind of complicated and fussy, but once you find a great combo, that's one to mark down.
> 
> ...




As i stated in my post, i'm using Grado PS1000. Of course headphones are as big a part of the synergy as all other parts from file to ear.

I'll have to wait before ordering the Muses. "Sorry about your wallet" indeed


----------



## K.T.

ch23 said:


> As i stated in my post, i'm using Grado PS1000. Of course headphones are as big a part of the synergy as all other parts from file to ear.
> 
> I'll have to wait before ordering the Muses. "Sorry about your wallet" indeed


 
  
 Oh, sorry. Whoops, I totally overlooked the part where you specified Grado PS1000.
  
 Thanks for your sentiments about my wallet. At this point I figure my two E12DIYs with a MUSES 01 in one, and a MUSES 02 in the other may, be my endgame for portable amps. I also have the regular E12, too.
  
 So if the MUSES work out, I may not have to fiddle around with my portable amps in the future.
  
 Of course it's always good to get as best a bargain as possible, but with the counterfeiting situation around MUSES, I think it may be worth it for me to just get it from Mouser and not have the second guessing taking up valuable mental energy. But that's just me.
  
 No doubt I hate to have to pay that much, though.


----------



## Deterministic NL

I received a MUSES02 from an Amazon Japan seller and it is pretty clearly a fake.  Ordered one from Akizukidensi and it should be here tomorrow.  I can confirm that Akizukidenshi does indeed sell authentic MUSES chips.  I can place an order with them and it is shipped directly to my home in Iwakuni Japan on the 2nd day after the order.


----------



## ClieOS

Given Akizukidenshi is JRC official dealer on the MUSES series, I don't think authenticity is of any concern at all.


----------



## Deterministic NL

Pics of fake MUSES02.  The most dead giveaway is the E or hair or whatever it is on the right of the ladies face.  Tentacles are too fat.  Legs are stiff beyond all belief.
  
 Just for fun I took an authentic MUSES01 and plugged it in a CMOYBB and removing it really almost made a mess of the pins they are so soft.  The ones on this "Muses02" are solid and do not bend a hair under nuclear conditions.


----------



## CH23

deterministic nl said:


> Pics of fake MUSES02.  The most dead giveaway is the E or hair or whatever it is on the right of the ladies face.  Tentacles are too fat.  Legs are stiff beyond all belief.
> 
> Just for fun I took an authentic MUSES01 and plugged it in a CMOYBB and removing it really almost made a mess of the pins they are so soft.  The ones on this "Muses02" are solid and do not bend a hair under nuclear conditions.




Man, i'm really sorry for you. 

Is the "m" also more rounded on the top on the fake one?


----------



## Deterministic NL

ch23 said:


> Man, i'm really sorry for you.
> 
> Is the "m" also more rounded on the top on the fake one?


 
 This is the real Muses01.  Yes the M looks a lot different as well.


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> Given Akizukidenshi is JRC official dealer on the MUSES series, I don't think authenticity is of any concern at all.


 
  
 Thanks for that info. I'm going to be ordering the Muses fairly soon, one 01 and one 02.
  
 Given Aizukidenshi is an official dealer, I may try ordering from them through one of those ordering services.
  
 I know it's been discussed before, but can someone give a quick overview of how that works? I'm a bit nervous as I've never use such a service.
  
 Or direct me to the post. Yes, that's just me being lazy. Actually, me working too hard and not having time to look through the post.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## CH23

deterministic nl said:


> This is the real Muses01.  Yes the M looks a lot different as well.




Can i DM you?


----------



## Deterministic NL

ch23 said:


> Can i DM you?


 
 sure


----------



## CH23

Wow. It lasted 14 hours on a 2 hour charge!


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> Thanks for that info. I'm going to be ordering the Muses fairly soon, one 01 and one 02.
> 
> Given Aizukidenshi is an official dealer, I may try ordering from them through one of those ordering services.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you are using Tenso - after registration, log in, then go to 'Usage Guide' tab (not 'my page'), select 'Japanese Buying Service', then click on the application form.
  
 You should see your name and account number already listed. Now, you need 4 things: (1) The link to the product page (*not the manufacturer page, but the store page of the individual product. In this case, the individual MUSES page on Aizukidenshi). (2) The name of the item. Just copy and paste the model name listed in Aizukidenshi's page. (3) Quantity, and (4) Price for single item. Fill these info in. If you need to order a different item, you need to click on 'Add Another Item", and a new info box will be added and you can continue to fill in the info for next item.
  
 Once you have done filling in all the info, submit and wait for Tenso to reply (might take a day or two). They will quote you the total price, then you can decide to pay or request for any chance. Note, the price is only for ordering the item, the buying service fee and any shipping fee from the store to Tenso. Once the item arrived at Tenso, you still need to pay for the forwarding / service fee and EMS fee (to you).


----------



## Loquah

Does anyone know where I can by HA-5002s in metal can for (or is the SOIC almost as good?)


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Does anyone know where I can by HA-5002s in metal can for (or is the SOIC almost as good?)


 
  
 According to Intersil, there shouldn't be any major performance difference between the metal can and the SOIC version of HA-5002 (in fact, the SOIC version seems to be slightly better). Besides, you will need to make your own adapter if you want to use the metal can.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> According to Intersil, there shouldn't be any major performance difference between the metal can and the SOIC version of HA-5002 (in fact, the SOIC version seems to be slightly better). Besides, you will need to make your own adapter if you want to use the metal can.


 
  
 Sweet. Thanks!!


----------



## CH23

Got my Grado GR10's back, and changed the OPAMP to the OPA1611.

for my in ears as they are now, the AD8620 was too bright. I'm going to try some other combo's, as i wouldn't mind having a bit more bass.


----------



## CH23

ClieOS, i'm a bit lost. 

I'm trying to have the E12 become a very sensitive amplifier for my GR10's, i want the mids and highs to be in balance, with a slight increase in bass. I want the sound to be very clear, "crisp" sounding. 
Right now i only have to turn the dial a maximum of 40° to have it at a good volume, i want this to become 90° or higher.

I know i'm asking a lot right now, but i'm not at home in amp rolling at all(or amplifiers as a whole, really), so can you help me? (Anybody else have any ideas, please do mention them to me)


----------



## nmatheis

ch23 said:


> ClieOS, i'm a bit lost.
> 
> I'm trying to have the E12 become a very sensitive amplifier for my GR10's, i want the mids and highs to be in balance, with a slight increase in bass. I want the sound to be very clear, "crisp" sounding.
> Right now i only have to turn the dial a maximum of 40° to have it at a good volume, i want this to become 90° or higher.
> ...


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> If you are using Tenso - after registration, log in, then go to 'Usage Guide' tab (not 'my page'), select 'Japanese Buying Service', then click on the application form.
> 
> You should see your name and account number already listed. Now, you need 4 things: (1) The link to the product page (*not the manufacturer page, but the store page of the individual product. In this case, the individual MUSES page on Aizukidenshi). (2) The name of the item. Just copy and paste the model name listed in Aizukidenshi's page. (3) Quantity, and (4) Price for single item. Fill these info in. If you need to order a different item, you need to click on 'Add Another Item", and a new info box will be added and you can continue to fill in the info for next item.
> 
> Once you have done filling in all the info, submit and wait for Tenso to reply (might take a day or two). They will quote you the total price, then you can decide to pay or request for any chance. Note, the price is only for ordering the item, the buying service fee and any shipping fee from the store to Tenso. Once the item arrived at Tenso, you still need to pay for the forwarding / service fee and EMS fee (to you).


 
  
 Thanks, ClieOS.
  
 It sound more complicated that it probably is. I'm sure once I've done it one time, it will seem very straight forward.
  
 Thanks for your help!


----------



## ClieOS

ch23 said:


> @ClieOS, i'm a bit lost.
> 
> I'm trying to have the E12 become a very sensitive amplifier for my GR10's, i want the mids and highs to be in balance, with a slight increase in bass. I want the sound to be very clear, "crisp" sounding.
> Right now i only have to turn the dial a maximum of 40° to have it at a good volume, i want this to become 90° or higher.
> ...


 
  
 MUSES02, if you want everything in balance with a hint of warmth. NJM4562 NJM5532, if you want cleanness and transparency.
  
 As for volume - if you can't reduce the source's output, then you probably want to increase the input impedance by using either an impedance adapter on the input or a custom IC with resistors. Take a look at the iFi Audio's attenuation adapter as that might actually work out well. Another more permanent mod is to add resistor on the input path, basically just in front of the Wima caps.


----------



## HK_sends

Ok, now the real question...Which option sounds better, the silver or gold edition DIY? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> MUSES02, if you want everything in balance with a hint of warmth. NJM4562, if you want cleanness and transparency.
> 
> As for volume - if you can't reduce the source's output, then you probably want to increase the input impedance by using either an impedance adapter on the input or a custom IC with resistors. Take a look at the iFi Audio's attenuation adapter as that might actually work out well. Another more permanent mod is to add resistor on the input path, basically just in front of the Wima caps.




Was already planning on getting the MUSE02, so that's very convenient! 
Looking at the price of the NJM4562, i wonder why it's only ¥50? (Considering the MUSE02 is ¥3400)

I think i might go for an adaptor at first, depending how much i plan on using the E12 with other headphones.

Thank you once again for your time and help.

--CH23


----------



## ClieOS

ch23 said:


> Was already planning on getting the MUSE02, so that's very convenient!
> Looking at the price of the NJM4562, i wonder why it's only ¥50? (Considering the MUSE02 is ¥3400)


 
  
 Apology, I wrote the wrong part number just before I went to bed. It should be NJM5532, not NJM4562 (I kind of combined the NJM5532 with LM4562 in me head 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ).
  
 NJM5532 is an old audio chip that used to be considered pretty HiFi a few decade ago, but now it has mostly dropped out of fashion. TI makes a similar chip under the name, the NE5532, which is also very clean sounding, but not nearly as good as NJM5532.
  
 Again, sorry about the confusion.


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> Apology, I wrote the wrong part number just before I went to bed. It should be NJM5532, not NJM4562 (I kind of combined the NJM5532 with LM4562 in me head  ).
> 
> NJM5532 is an old audio chip that used to be considered pretty HiFi a few decade ago, but now it has mostly dropped out of fashion. TI makes a similar chip under the name, the NE5532, which is also very clean sounding, but not nearly as good as NJM5532.
> 
> Again, sorry about the confusion.




No worries, you're only human 

I still consider this a very cheap chip, so that won't break my bank.


Thanks again, have a nice day!


----------



## billymav

Hey guys,
  
 Just letting you know that we got more E12DIY's on the way which should be arriving this week.
  
 Billy
  
 edit: typos


----------



## Loquah

Wow. Cool!


----------



## Paulo83

billymav said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Just letting you know that we got more E12DIY's on the way which should be arriving this week.
> 
> ...




Hey billymav,

What would be your cost including shipping to the UK please?


----------



## MistahBungle

paulo83 said:


> Hey billymav,
> 
> What would be your cost including shipping to the UK please?




Go to Noisy Motel's website & send him a message, he may not be keeping a constant eye on this thread.


----------



## fumoffuXx

may i ask whats a good combo with the muses01?


----------



## CH23

fumoffuxx said:


> may i ask whats a good combo with the muses01?




I would say that that's different for everyone.

Depends on your music, your headphone, and your sound preferences.


----------



## Preben

I got one now looking forward to getting my x5 and ciems triple fi 10 i know they old but god i love the sound now looking into getting some cans


----------



## Audio Reiner

My E12DIY has arrived today. I use it with fiio X5 and AKG K3003i. The headphones have a very low impedance (8 ohms) so that I've not tried the buffer LMH6321 because they are specially for HPs with high impedance.
  
 My favorite combination is LME49600 + AD8620.
 I hear a very clear room sound with dark and powerfull basses, a believable voice reproduction. Compared to the normal E12 is difference bigger then the price difference. Much more better!
  
 With my other headphones (Audeze LCD-2.2) I found a second favorite combination.
 LMH6321 + OPA604 sounds not so pretty like my first favorite but good.
  
 Next step: Purchase MUSE02 - I read enough positive critics about that. In which buffer combination it works well?


----------



## fumoffuXx

ahhh ok.. hmm i still got the phobia of voiding warranty as of yet so... haha ill wait till i get my hands on the muse )


----------



## Audio Reiner

A new question: Has anyone experience with changing the capacitors C6 and C7. What makes it with the sound?


----------



## fumoffuXx

muses01 and muses01-D is the same? any difference at all?


----------



## ClieOS

audio reiner said:


> A new question: Has anyone experience with changing the capacitors C6 and C7. What makes it with the sound?


 
  
 Haven't really wrote much about it, but some of us did change the caps. Below is mine, with a swappable socket. If you are changing from the big red Wima to the included Tonerex (or most electrolytic on that matter), I will say the first thing to notice is probably the smoothness. Wima and most film caps tend to sound sharper and more edgier. I am using Silmic II most of the time - as my opamp + buffer choice usually is aiming toward transparency, I think the Silmic II balances it back slightly with its more musical (yet still mostly neutral) and relaxing sound.
  


clieos said:


> Finally:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> muses01 and muses01-D is the same? any difference at all?


 
  
 Same.


----------



## fumoffuXx

thanks clieOS, btw can u advice me if i were to get a muses01 in akizuki, what other opamps are recommended to try around or pair with it  as i wanna maximum the postal hehe


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Haven't really wrote much about it, but some of us did change the caps. Below is mine, with a swappable socket. If you are changing from the big red Wima to the included Tonerex (or most electrolytic on that matter), I will say the first thing to notice is probably the smoothness. Wima and most film caps tend to sound sharper and more edgier. I am using Silmic II most of the time - as my opamp + buffer choice usually is aiming toward transparency, I think the Silmic II balances it back slightly with its more musical (yet still mostly neutral) and relaxing sound.


 
  
 How would you compare the stock Wimas to the stock replacement Elna Tonerex?


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> thanks clieOS, btw can u advice me if i were to get a muses01 in akizuki, what other opamps are recommended to try around or pair with it  as i wanna maximum the postal hehe


 
  
 Ha, I did the same and ordered a few JRC opamp / buffer at the same time as some of them are hard to find outside of Japan.
  
 Here are a few that I think are worth trying: MUSES8920, MUSES8820, NJM5532, and LME49720.
 Other that are okay to try are: NJM2114, NJM4580, NJM4558, NJM4556, LM4562, LME49860.
  
 Last note: some of the opmap are single channel and some are SOIC. If you want to avoid soldering, get dual channel DIP as much as you can. The above listed should be available in dual DIP IIRC.
  
  


loquah said:


> How would you compare the stock Wimas to the stock replacement Elna Tonerex?


 
  
 The stock Wima sounds like most film caps I tried, clean, sharp, dry, good sparkle and micro-detail but also a bit grainy in the treble. Tonerex on the other hand is richer, smoother, with better depth (film caps tend to sound flat). You lost a bit of the sparkle and sharpness, but in exchange the presentation is more musical. The difference between Tonerex and Simlic II actually isn't very big. They are similar in presentation, but Silmic II has a wider overall image and space. So in a way Tonerex can be considered a step-down of Silmic II.


----------



## Audio Reiner

Quote:


clieos said:


> Ha, I did the same and ordered a few JRC opamp / buffer at the same time as some of them are hard to find outside of Japan.
> 
> Here are a few that I think are worth trying: MUSES8920, MUSES8820, NJM5532, and LME49720.
> Other that are okay to try are: NJM2114, NJM4580, NJM4558, NJM4556, LM4562, LME49860.
> ...


 
 Thx for the info about the Silmic II. I'll try it.

 When I use the MUSES01 or the MUSES02 is there any experience about the best buffer combination? Should I buy something to optimize it?

 I have to pay 20 € transport costs and if neccessary I would place a order with the MUSES.


----------



## fumoffuXx

ok disclaimer im new to this ampifier business and..... im super confused but willing to learn lol so i got my e12DIY recently not yet opened before and...what goes where which is an opamp and which is a "buffer"? lol dont flame me really dunno these stuff haha


----------



## CH23

fumoffuxx said:


> ok disclaimer im new to this ampifier business and..... im super confused but willing to learn lol so i got my e12DIY recently not yet opened before and...
> what goes where which is an opamp and which is a "buffer"? lol dont flame me really dunno these stuff haha




I must urge you to look at the manual that came with the player, and look at the markings on the chips.


----------



## fumoffuXx

i dont mean to sound retard but i fail to understand the instructions... not circuitory inclined :/ i can do taxes lol!
  
 nevermind i think i figured it out after staring at it for 10mins lol! nonetheless if anyone wannts toi clarify for me ill be glad to listen haha


----------



## Loquah

fumoffuxx said:


> i dont mean to sound retard but i fail to understand the instructions... not circuitory inclined :/ i can do taxes lol!


 

 Each chip is labelled (you might need a bright light source to read it clearly) and the manual clearly states which are op amps and which are buffers. Specifically, the BUF634, LME... and LMH... are all buffers and go in the slot further from the input/output sockets. The others are op amps and go in the slot closest to the input/output sockets.


----------



## fumoffuXx

ahh okie thanks for clearing up with me! ) thanks alot appreciate it lol overly prudent about this kinda stuff :/
  
 other question is the buffers are able to use other chips right? but have to solder them yourself?


----------



## Loquah

fumoffuxx said:


> ahh okie thanks for clearing up with me! ) thanks alot appreciate it lol overly prudent about this kinda stuff :/
> 
> other question is the buffers are able to use other chips right? but have to solder them yourself?


 
  
 Correct for both op amps and for buffers. There are a variety of options you can use in both, but unless they're DIP-8 style and fit in your case (or you grind the case down slightly) then you'll need to solder them to the adapters provided (see underside of the foam in the tin that came with the E12DIY)


----------



## fumoffuXx

ahhh that makes sense now  thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

audio reiner said:


> Quote:
> Thx for the info about the Silmic II. I'll try it.
> 
> When I use the MUSES01 or the MUSES02 is there any experience about the best buffer combination? Should I buy something to optimize it?
> ...


 
   
Besides the three stock buffer, I really haven't find that many buffer that are suitable for E12DIY - just these two: LT1010 and HA-5002. You can skip the LT1010. It is good sounding buffer, but doesn't sound any better than the stock buffer. So you won't miss anything by not trying it. HA-5002 on the other hand is well worth a try. It is the cleanest sounding buffer I ever heard, and a great choice if you are looking for the ultimate transparency. It is however a bit tricky to use as you need to mount it on the special BrownDog adapter.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Besides the three stock buffer, I really haven't find that many buffer that are suitable for E12DIY - just these two: LT1010 and HA-5002. You can skip the LT1010. It is good sounding buffer, but doesn't sound any better than the stock buffer. So you won't miss anything by not trying it. HA-5002 on the other hand is well worth a try. It is the cleanest sounding buffer I ever heard, and a great choice if you are looking for the ultimate transparency. It is however a bit tricky to use as you need to mount it on the special BrownDog adapter.


 
  
 I've ordered the brown dog adapter and HA-5002 (SOIC version which is listed as HA9P5002) and am looking forward to trying it soon.


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> I've ordered the brown dog adapter and HA-5002 (SOIC version which is listed as HA9P5002) and am looking forward to trying it soon.


 
 you must have got mad soldering skills.
  
 i think i need a new soldering iron for this stuff :X


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> you must have got mad soldering skills.
> 
> i think i need a new soldering iron for this stuff :X


 
  
 No. I'm just careful 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and yes, the right soldering iron makes a big difference. I use a temperature controlled soldering station - nothing fancy (actually quite cheap), but being able to keep the iron at the right temperature does help.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> I've ordered the brown dog adapter and HA-5002 (SOIC version which is listed as HA9P5002) and am looking forward to trying it soon.


 
  
 Keep note that you have to solder it on the bottom side of the adapter and seal the top with some insulation tape.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Keep note that you have to solder it on the bottom side of the adapter and seal the top with some insulation tape.


 
  
 Thanks for the heads up. Is that because the buffer socket sits higher than the op amp socket?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Is that because the buffer socket sits higher than the op amp socket?


 
  
 No, it is because the HA-5002 adapter is designed to mount two HA-5002 (stacking for double the output), one on the top and another on the bottom. But the space in E12DIY can only accommodate the bottom one. If you solder the HA-5002 on the top, you will never be able to close the case up.
  
 Here is how the HA-5002 + adapter should look like. Also, forgot to mention that you need to trim off just 1mm or so from every pins. See the first picture for reference.


----------



## fumoffuXx

just to clarify muses01 is a dip-3 chip and the e12 case WILL not have enough clearance for it? how much and where in the case do i have to file down? just need to confirm before i try anything lol


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> just to clarify muses01 is a dip-3 chip and the e12 case WILL not have enough clearance for it? how much and where in the case do i have to file down? just need to confirm before i try anything lol


 
  
 DIP-8. There is no such thing as DIP-3, AFAIK.
  
 Whether the opamp will clear the case or not depends on the case itself. A few lucky individuals have no problem on clearance on DIP8 opamp, but most of us do and need to mod our case.
  
 The instruction is on page 30, but here it is again:
  
  


clieos said:


> In the spirit of DIY, I took the time to sand down the case so it will accommodate a DIP8 packaged opamp better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## fumoffuXx

sorry typoed i meant dip-8 lol! :x
  
 thank you sir


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> No, it is because the HA-5002 adapter is designed to mount two HA-5002 (stacking for double the output), one on the top and another on the bottom. But the space in E12DIY can only accommodate the bottom one. If you solder the HA-5002 on the top, you will never be able to close the case up.
> 
> Here is how the HA-5002 + adapter should look like. Also, forgot to mention that you need to trim off just 1mm or so from every pins. See the first picture for reference.


 
  
 Thanks for the explanation.
  
 Would the HA-5002 fit on top of the adapter if the pins were trimmed down further? I don't understand why other SOIC chips fit on top of the adapters, but the HA5002 has to go underneath?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Thanks for the explanation.
> 
> *Would the HA-5002 fit on top of the adapter if the pins were trimmed down further?* I don't understand why other SOIC chips fit on top of the adapters, but the HA5002 has to go underneath?


 
  
 No. Because the pins themselves have long "shoulder" that prevents it to go any deeper. It is so that there will be room left for a second chip to be mounted underneath
  
 Look at the below graph, the R1 to R2 is the shoulder. R2 to the slimmer end is the pin that insert into the socket. So regardless of how far you trim the pin, you will never get pass the shoulder as that's what stopping the whole pin from going into the socket. The only way around it is to remove the whole pin together and replace it will a pin that has shorter shoulder. But then you need to order special pins for the job.
  





 
  
 As for your second question: It is because on your normal BrownDog single SOID to DIP adapter, they come with pins with short shoulder because they are meant to mount on only one side. If it is a dual SOIC to single DAP, they will have the long shoulder pins as well. The issue is, HA-5002 adapter only comes with dual-to-single version and we have no other choice.


----------



## fumoffuXx

clieos said:


> No. Because the pins themselves have long "shoulder" that prevents it to go any deeper. It is so that there will be room left for a second chip to be mounted underneath
> 
> Look at the below graph, the R1 to R2 is the shoulder. R2 to the slimmer end is the pin that insert into the socket. So regardless of how far you trim the pin, you will never get pass the shoulder as that's what stopping the whole pin from going into the socket. The only way around it is to remove the whole pin together and replace it will a pin that has shorter shoulder. But then you need to order special pins for the job.
> 
> ...


 
 so the by mounting the chip on the bottom its within the "protected" region of the shoulders? theres no difference in top or bottom right? its strictly based on the design of the pins?


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> so the by mounting the chip on the bottom its within the "protected" region of the shoulders? theres no difference in top or bottom right? its strictly based on the design of the pins?


 
  
 For HA-5002  only, yes. No difference between top and bottom as they are in stacking configuration. For other dual-to-single adapter however, no, as they are not stacking two chips but instead converting two single channel to one dual channels.


----------



## fumoffuXx

this is very complicated lol!


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> this is very complicated lol!


 
  
 Think of this as a train -
  
 when stacking, you are basically using two locomotives (two buffers) pulling on the same direction (single channel). So both are doing the same thing regardless of whether whether they are on the 1st or 2nd position. Even if you disable one of the engine of the locomotive, the other is still pulling the train in the same direction, despite the train now having half the power.
  
 One normal dual-to-single adapter, you are like using two engines (two opamp) on one single train (the dual-to-signel adapter) that is running on parallel tracks (left and right channel), where one engine pull the right wheel while the other pull the left wheel. So basically both engines must be in sync and have to work at the same time. If one of the engine isn't working, the one side of the wheel won't work (no sound).


----------



## fumoffuXx

so the LME49600 they are...lemme think 2 single buffers for 2 seperate slots on the same PCB?


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> so the LME49600 they are...lemme think 2 single buffers for 2 seperate slots on the same PCB?


 
  
 Buffer usually only comes in single channel package (one channel per chip). While opamp can be either be one or two channels, sometime even four channels on a single chip. The socket in E12DIY is configured to be two single channel sockets for buffer, and one dual channels socket for opamp.


----------



## fumoffuXx

ahh i see i see ok so when using muses01:
 1. its a single? channel opamp?
 2. is there a right or wrong way to slot it in?


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> ahh i see i see ok so when using muses01:
> 1. its a single? channel opamp?
> 2. is there a right or wrong way to slot it in?


 
  
 1. MUSES01 is a dual channels chip.
  
 2. The 'dot' or 'dent' on the opamp must be facing the same direction as the 'dent' on the socket. Insert it the wrong way will almost always result in the burn-out of the chip. Observe the dot and dent on the opamp below and the dent on the socket.
  




  
 p/s: You really should check the datasheet of any opamp / buffer you want to use before trying. Most of the fine detail might not make any sense but the introduction in the datasheet usually is easy enough to understand and will give you a pointer or two.


----------



## fumoffuXx

*salute thanks very informative!  hope to bump into u in E1 sometimes


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> *salute thanks very informative!  hope to bump into u in E1 sometimes


 
  
 I'll probably be there sometime later next week, checking out a few of the newer stuffs.


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> The stock Wima sounds like most film caps I tried, clean, sharp, dry, good sparkle and micro-detail but also a bit grainy in the treble. Tonerex on the other hand is richer, smoother, with better depth (film caps tend to sound flat). You lost a bit of the sparkle and sharpness, but in exchange the presentation is more musical. The difference between Tonerex and Simlic II actually isn't very big. They are similar in presentation, but Silmic II has a wider overall image and space. So in a way Tonerex can be considered a step-down of Silmic II.


 
  
 Thanks for this great info, ClieOS. The swappable sockets are a great idea. Are they available at PartsConnexion?
  
 I'm looking up the Silmic IIs on PartsConnexion as we speak, and they come in 2 voltage ratings: either 50V or 100V. Both caps are of the same size and dimensions for the 2.2uF units.
  
 Seems either would work, but is there any bearing on the sound quality?
  
 I've read in the past how the higher wattage models of certain tantalum resistors sounded better, but this is a different thing all together. Still, it makes me wonder if there's something about different voltage models that may be audible. Anyone experiment with it yet?
  
 How did those Blackgates work out? I recall they didn't quite sound good, but that was a while ago, and it seems those BGs take a lifetime to burn in. I probably have some BGs sitting around in my parts box, but they may take too long to settle.
  
 I finally got the time to solder my OPA627s onto my adapter boards. Very good. In an elevated league vs. the included chips. Very, very nice so far.
  
 If anything, the bass could be a bit tighter. But maybe that will improve with burn in. Right now I've listened to them for less than an hour.
  
 And I've only listened to them on the Audio Technica M50s so far. I think those phones have a slightly tubby/loose bass, so might also be a synergy issue with those.


----------



## Audio Reiner

clieos said:


> Haven't really wrote much about it, but some of us did change the caps. Below is mine, with a swappable socket. If you are changing from the big red Wima to the included Tonerex (or most electrolytic on that matter), I will say the first thing to notice is probably the smoothness. Wima and most film caps tend to sound sharper and more edgier. I am using Silmic II most of the time - as my opamp + buffer choice usually is aiming toward transparency, I think the Silmic II balances it back slightly with its more musical (yet still mostly neutral) and relaxing sound.


 
 Many thanks for the detailed presentation. I have ordered many components but nothing received yet. So I tested today to change the stock capacitors but I was really disappointed. The music has lost the room information, it sounds dull. So I soldered both stock capacitors to a bypass configuration. I need to use thin cables to do it. The result is pretty good. Very clear room information and a strang and black bass.

 I use it with LME49600 + AD8620.
  
 In the next few days I await the delivery of my orders. I ordered the silmic caps, the MUSES01/02, the HA-5002 (named as HA9P5002-5Z) and the brown dog adapters. Most of all will be here very fast but the HA-5002 has 13 weeks delivery time.

 I will share my experiences when the first parts are placed in my E12DIY.
  
  
 Edit: It sounds very well with the AKG K3003i. And only with the AKGs.
 My Audeze LCD-2 sounds not really bad, but it is far from good in this combination. This is not important for me because I want to use the E12DIY only with the AKG headphones.
  
 Edit again: I solded it back. Only the Wima capacitors are working. That makes a better room impression. More and better high frequency.


----------



## Loquah

James said over in the X5 thread that the Chinese market prefers a warmer sound. I wonder if the stock replacement caps (Elna Tonerex) were provided for that market?


----------



## Reima

clieos said:


> No. Because the pins themselves have long "shoulder" that prevents it to go any deeper. It is so that there will be room left for a second chip to be mounted underneath
> 
> Look at the below graph, the R1 to R2 is the shoulder. R2 to the slimmer end is the pin that insert into the socket. So regardless of how far you trim the pin, you will never get pass the shoulder as that's what stopping the whole pin from going into the socket. The only way around it is to remove the whole pin together and replace it will a pin that has shorter shoulder. But then you need to order special pins for the job.
> 
> ...


 
 If you order the BrownDog adapters with the standard pins there is no need to trim them as they fit in the E12DIY. At least the ones I got did.


----------



## Loquah

reima said:


> If you order the BrownDog adapters with the standard pins there is no need to trim them as they fit in the E12DIY. At least the ones I got did.


 
  
 This issue I think refers to the Brown Dog adapters specifically made for the HA-5002 --> BUF634 configuration


----------



## Reima

loquah said:


> This issue I think refers to the Brown Dog adapters specifically made for the HA-5002 --> BUF634 configuration


 
 I know, here is a photo of the Browndog HA-5002 to BUF634 Adapter (p/n 110101) in my E12DIY.
  

  
http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302-1.aspx


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> Thanks for this great info, ClieOS. The swappable sockets are a great idea. Are they available at PartsConnexion?
> 
> I'm looking up the Silmic IIs on PartsConnexion as we speak, and they come in 2 voltage ratings: either 50V or 100V. Both caps are of the same size and dimensions for the 2.2uF units.
> 
> ...


 
  
 The minimum voltage to use is 6.3V (which is the lowest rating most caps have). Anything above is fine. Some said higher rating gives stabler performance, though I don't think there is the need to intentionally go for a higher rated voltage as the difference will probably be too small to notice in audio application. Personally I'll go with 10V~25V. You don't have to order Silmic II from PartConnexion as Mouser carries them in bigger variation. 
  
 Jamato is a firm believer in the BlackGate, I am not, at least not with the NX Hi-Q I have (which is said to be the best sounding among BG by some). I have a pair of BG that has 500+ hours on them, and don't sound that much different than those that only have 10 hours on them. Maybe they will turn out better sounding in even longer hours, but I have better sounding caps on my hand without the need of burn-in and I'll rather not wait for magic to happen.
  


audio reiner said:


> Many thanks for the detailed presentation. ..


 
  
 Film caps do often carry a lot more micro-detail and has a very clean sound. What they often don't have is texture on the mid to bass region (I guess that's what 'cloud' the sound for you?). Electrolytic tends to fill the room up, where film caps tend to leave the room open, so to speak, A good compromise of both is the AVX OxiCaps actually, which has a sound that is right between them.
  


loquah said:


> James said over in the X5 thread that the Chinese market prefers a warmer sound. I wonder if the stock replacement caps (Elna Tonerex) were provided for that market?


 
  
 Hardly. I haven't really saw many Chinese E12DIY owner change the caps. The few that do are mostly going for Silmic II or something more exotic.
  


reima said:


> If you order the BrownDog adapters with the standard pins there is no need to trim them as they fit in the E12DIY. At least the ones I got did.


 
  
 I actually do have the standard pins version of the HA-5002 adapter. Again, it depends on the casing of your particular E12DIY on whether the unmod'ed adapter will fit inside or not, because there is only 1 mm or so room to spare. The reason to suggest for trimming is because I have observed that the actual pin length that inserted into the socket is 1mm or so longer than the socket's depth. So trimming a little bit off not only won't affect the function, it should give you a tighter fit.
  
 Basically, if there is room to spare with the unmod'ed adapter, you are on the clear. But if the adapter is getting too close, then trimming a little off will give you the room to install the adapter safely, without risk of short circuit (and insulating tape is a must as well).


----------



## Audio Reiner

My MUSES01/02 are arrived. I tried both and I can't hear a difference. Is there anyone who can?


----------



## Audio Reiner

So far I can say, the MUSES are not the best for me and my AKG K3003i. Much money for nothing in my ears and eyes.

 A lovely improvement is the change from the capacitors to the Silmic II.
  
 Now my best configuration is:
 LME49600 + AD8620 + Silmic II capacitors (22uF 25V)
  
 This sound is really what I like. Great room impression, clear but never rough, strong black bass with a lot of authority. The voices are real credible and applause sounds like applause and not like heavy rain. I hope I could describe what I mean.
     


  

   btw.: I got a private message asking where I got my MUSES. It could be a fake.

 I want to make it public. I bought my MUSES here.

http://de.mouser.com/
 Put MUSES in the searchbox and you will find what I have ordered.

 Is there anyone who knows something about that?


----------



## ClieOS

audio reiner said:


> My MUSES01/02 are arrived. I tried both and I can't hear a difference. Is there anyone who can?


 
  


audio reiner said:


> So far I can say, the MUSES are not the best for me and my AKG K3003i. Much money for nothing in my ears and eyes....


 
  
 Pretty sure I can tell them apart, since they sound very different to me. But you like what you like, and certainly no one can tell you what you should like. However, I do suggest giving them sometime. Force yourself to listen to one combination for a week, then move to the next. See if you still like the original combo as it is. At worst case, you can still sell the MUSES off for a good price in the forum, since you can show people the Mouser receipt for proof of authenticity.
  
 Also, if you haven't done so, try different buffer combo as well.


----------



## Audio Reiner

clieos said:


> Pretty sure I can tell them apart, since they sound very different to me. But you like what you like, and certainly no one can tell you what you should like. However, I do suggest giving them sometime. Force yourself to listen to one combination for a week, then move to the next. See if you still like the original combo as it is. At worst case, you can still sell the MUSES off for a good price in the forum, since you can show people the Mouser receipt for proof of authenticity.
> 
> Also, if you haven't done so, try different buffer combo as well.


 

 Yes, I'll do so. I'll try the different combos for a week. That may be a good way.
 I ordered the HA-5002 buffers and the brwon dog adapters, I believe that could be a good combo to the MUSES. But there is a delivery time of 13 weeks. I have to wait so far.


----------



## ClieOS

audio reiner said:


> I ordered the HA-5002 buffers and the brwon dog adapters, I believe that could be a good combo to the MUSES. *But there is a delivery time of 13 weeks. I have to wait so far.*


 
  
 Cancel the HA-5002 order from Mouser and get it from RS Components instead, readily stock and cheaper price too (they run under alliedelec.com in the US). Element14 (newark.com) and digikey.com also carry stock.


----------



## Audio Reiner

Order canceled and new order placed by DigiKey. Thanx guys!


----------



## Audio Reiner

I changed the amp now and start hearing one week with this combination:
  
*LME49600 + MUSES02 + Silmic II capacitors (22uF 25V)*
  
 May be the buffers HA-5002 will come next week, than makes comparing the 2 MOUSES more sence.


----------



## CH23

what are the chances of receiving fake silmic II caps when i buy them from eBay?
  
 and i see different versions of the ha-5002; a dip version called ha3-5002, and a solder on version called ha2-5002, which ones to get, and again, is eBay a safe harbour to get them from?


----------



## Loquah

I received my LME49990s today and soldered and installed successfully. Early impressions are that they sound a bit thicker and more intimate than OP1611 so not sure they'll stay installed, but for now I'll give them a few commutes to see... (using with stock LME buffer)


----------



## ClieOS

ch23 said:


> what are the chances of receiving fake silmic II caps when i buy them from eBay?
> 
> and i see different versions of the ha-5002; a dip version called ha3-5002, and a solder on version called ha2-5002, which ones to get, and again, is eBay a safe harbour to get them from?


 
  
 Fake Silmic II on eBay - high chance. They are one of the more counterfeited caps in China.
  
 There are only metal can and SOIC version of HA-5002 currently in production. DIP version must be old stock, or even worst, used part taken from old equipment. Regardless, you can only use SOIC version of HA-5002 as you need to use the BrownDog adapter. HA-5002 doesn't have a normal pin configuration like your typical buffer. If you plug a DIP version of HA-5002 directly into the buffer socket of E12DIY, something will burn.


----------



## HK_sends

Silly question...has anyone purchased a Muses02 OpAmp from these folks?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-MUSES02-High-Quality-Audio-J-FET-Input-Dual-Operational-Amplifier-/171068331568?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160
  
 If so, were the chips legit?
  
 Thanks in advance!
 Cheers and All the Best!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 -HK sends


----------



## Deterministic NL

hk_sends said:


> Silly question...has anyone purchased a Muses02 OpAmp from these folks?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-MUSES02-High-Quality-Audio-J-FET-Input-Dual-Operational-Amplifier-/171068331568?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:US:3160
> 
> ...


 
 If those are actual photos of the chips, they look authentic but I can't speak to the authenticity of that sale but I do know this.   A real MUSES02 from Japan Radio Corporation can't be had for less than $34 (roughly at today's yen rate).  Add shipping to that ( I get chips from Akizukidenshi and shipping is $5 roughly) Then you have to mail them somewhere else.  The price looks a bit low for somebody trying to make money.
  
 Now looking through the ad it could be possible the guy reclaims parts somehow or another and strips components from junk.   Even then the MUSES chips came out in 2009 I think. 
  
 I personally wouldn't take the chance but I can't say the guy isn't selling real chips or not.  Could be.


----------



## HK_sends

deterministic nl said:


> If those are actual photos of the chips, they look authentic but I can't speak to the authenticity of that sale but I do know this.   A real MUSES02 from Japan Radio Corporation can't be had for less than $34 (roughly at today's yen rate).  Add shipping to that ( I get chips from Akizukidenshi and shipping is $5 roughly) Then you have to mail them somewhere else.  The price looks a bit low for somebody trying to make money.
> 
> Now looking through the ad it could be possible the guy reclaims parts somehow or another and strips components from junk.   Even then the MUSES chips came out in 2009 I think.
> 
> I personally wouldn't take the chance but I can't say the guy isn't selling real chips or not.  Could be.


 
 Thanks for the info!  I went ahead and took the chance because I had a little cash to burn.  If it's not legit, I can always try a different means.  I haven't been burned by any folks on eBay yet, but I make sure I understand and am willing to accept the risk if I do buy from a new source.
  
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## PinkLed

Just received my E12 DIY today and have to say, I am so much more impressed with this then my JDS labs c5. The detail is phenomenal and the clarity at lower listening levels is something I've been looking for in a portable amp for a while. The bass boost does produce a hiss, but to be honest, you don't even need it. I cant wait now to perhaps buy some muses and see what kind of results I can achieve. If i am happy with the OPA1611+LME49600 would any of you recommend muses01 over muses02?


----------



## PinkLed

k.t. said:


> My gold unit is SN. 01XX so I would assume the gold have their own numbering. Unless the gold occupy the first 500 numbers.
> 
> Wow, 2000 units is not that many. There were more than 2000 people in my highschool. So it's crazy to think that's all the E12DIYs that exist worldwide.
> 
> And yet you can still buy them new from distributors. I wonder how many are accounted for, and how many are still unsold.


 
 I have a silver one that is 026X, perhaps the first 250 and last 250 are gold, would be an interesting thing to know.


----------



## Deterministic NL

pinkled said:


> Just received my E12 DIY today and have to say, I am so much more impressed with this then my JDS labs c5. The detail is phenomenal and the clarity at lower listening levels is something I've been looking for in a portable amp for a while. The bass boost does produce a hiss, but to be honest, you don't even need it. I cant wait now to perhaps buy some muses and see what kind of results I can achieve. If i am happy with the OPA1611+LME49600 would any of you recommend muses01 over muses02?


 
 I personally think the MUSES02 sounds better in it than the 01.  To be honest I haven't listened to the 1611 Opamp yet.  I put the MUSES02 in with the LMH6321 and I'm a very satisfied listener.   For me that is the magic sound.


----------



## HK_sends

pinkled said:


> I have a silver one that is 026X, perhaps the first 250 and last 250 are gold, would be an interesting thing to know.


 
 The gold one I just got is S/N: 003X.
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## furyagain

I have two silver one,
  
  one is with my friend now..
 i believe they are SN 82 and 84


----------



## nmatheis

pinkled said:


> Just received my E12 DIY today and have to say, I am so much more impressed with this then my JDS labs c5. The detail is phenomenal and the clarity at lower listening levels is something I've been looking for in a portable amp for a while. The bass boost does produce a hiss, but to be honest, you don't even need it. I cant wait now to perhaps buy some muses and see what kind of results I can achieve. If i am happy with the OPA1611+LME49600 would any of you recommend muses01 over muses02?




Say what, Willis? The E12 DIY doesn't have bass boost.


----------



## furyagain

there is only High and Low gain switch left on the E12 DIY


----------



## doki81

pinkled said:


> Just received my E12 DIY today and have to say, I am so much more impressed with this then my JDS labs c5. The detail is phenomenal and the clarity at lower listening levels is something I've been looking for in a portable amp for a while. The bass boost does produce a hiss, but to be honest, you don't even need it. I cant wait now to perhaps buy some muses and see what kind of results I can achieve. If i am happy with the OPA1611+LME49600 would any of you recommend muses01 over muses02?


 
 erm..i have my vote go to muses01..but pair with BUF634...


----------



## fumoffuXx

hey guys is this correct?.
  

  
 the muse01 correctly placed?


----------



## fumoffuXx

help! omg what to do?! :O
  

  
 *paniking!


----------



## doki81

fumoffuxx said:


> hey guys is this correct?.
> 
> 
> 
> the muse01 correctly placed?


 
 yes, look good...which buffer u starting with for now?


----------



## doki81

fumoffuxx said:


> help! omg what to do?! :O
> 
> 
> 
> *paniking!


 
 u need to push it further down...and becareful as the legs are very very soft~... next thing is to file your casing to allow your case to close properly~..


----------



## fumoffuXx

oo ok thanks im gonna try it with the stock buffers 1st then the LME49600


----------



## fumoffuXx

i prefer the stock buffers


----------



## fumoffuXx

so how long do i have to burn it in for if it requires burning in lol


----------



## Deterministic NL

fumoffuxx said:


> help! omg what to do?! :O
> 
> 
> 
> *paniking!


 
  
 Sure looks to me like you can push down just a little bit more but be careful.  Very careful.  My MUSES chips just barely fit and I can get the case closed.


----------



## fumoffuXx

yea got mine to fit without much sanding too hehe thank goodness


----------



## ClieOS

As long as it fits without pressing against the housing, you are fine. But don't ever try to force it in, even it is just 0.5mm to cleat the top. Doing so will put stress onto the delicate PCB, and not going to be good in the long run.


----------



## PinkLed

furyagain said:


> there is only High and Low gain switch left on the E12 DIY


 
 My mistake, High gain produces some hiss (not bass boost), if kept below 30%, all is good though!
  
 Edit: bought a muses01 from mouser, thanks again Head-fi for emptying my wallet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Edit 2: added the muses02 to the order, I will post back with my comparison


----------



## K.T.

deterministic nl said:


> I personally think the MUSES02 sounds better in it than the 01.  To be honest I haven't listened to the 1611 Opamp yet.  I put the MUSES02 in with the LMH6321 and I'm a very satisfied listener.   For me that is the magic sound.


 
  
 Hi, Deterministic.
  
 As you know, I'm also eagerly awaiting my MUSES01 and MUSES02.
  
 Could you share with us your impressions of both chips, and what about the 02 you enjoy over the 01?
  
 Most of the good press references the 02, though there have been several reports of folks being very happy with the 01. 
  
 If I understand correctly, the 02 is more detailed and has more bass, whereas the 01 sounds warmer and more organic? That's the takeaway based on the limited number of reviews I've seen.
  
 Would you say that's the case? The 01 seems to be up my alley, though it's really hard to say until one has a chance to try them both.
  
 I guess we wouldn't get the full picture without knowing which headphones you are using, as well.
  
 I don't remember, but is the LMH6321 one of the buffers that came with the kit?
  
 And as a final question, does installing and destalling the MUSES chips damage the legs? Gotta try both, but I'm worried pulling them in and out might trash them.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Deterministic NL

k.t. said:


> Hi, Deterministic.
> 
> As you know, I'm also eagerly awaiting my MUSES01 and MUSES02.
> 
> ...


 
 K.T.
  
 You should have them here pretty soon I would hope, in the next day or 3 anyway.  I made my own thread on the MUSES02 rolling that outlines my preferences.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/719168/fiio-e12diy-mini-mini-review
  
 I just installed the MUSES01 and I personally didn't care for the sound.  However (and I think I mentioned this in the thread) I put the MUSES01 in a CMOYBB and it's a perfect fit.  Sounds fantastic there.
  
 LMH6321 was my buffer of choice.
  
 And yes you can EASILY damage the soft copper legs on these chips.  If you are very careful you can get them in and out without damage.  What I recommend is to first drop them in the mounts they come with outside the amp to ensure all legs are straight.  Most chips you get are slightly spread out too far.  I put the four legs of one side on a table and slowly press them in to make them perpendicular to the chip body.  Sometimes you need to do that, sometimes you don't. 
  
 If you've never pulled a chip in and out before I recommend rolling with some of the cheaper chips in the kit first.  If MUSES copper legs are the first chip you ever remove you may indeed trash the legs.  The chip puller in the kit is pretty nice though.  If you have a stubborn one literally work it out a millimeter at a time evenly.  If you don't you'll bend them up for sure.  You probably get one or two shots at straightening the legs before they cold work and break.
  
 It really just takes patience.


----------



## K.T.

Great thread, Deterministic:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/719168/fiio-e12diy-mini-mini-review
  
 MUSES02 seem great!
  
 May I ask what headphones you are using? That figures big into the equation, too. Sounds like you hit a sweet spot with your setup.
  
 Hopefully I will be as lucky as you and not need to file the case. It does look like there is some decent room between my SOIC 8 chips on adapters and the inside of the case. I don't know if it will translate into enough clearance for the DIP 8, though.
  
 If both MUSES have merit for me, I will be keeping a MUSES01 in one E12DIY amp and MUSES02 in the other. Otherwise, I'll keep whichever MUSES sounds best to me in one, and OPA627 in the other. We'll see.
  
 I will definitely try the LMH6321. That buffer is specced for low impedance phones, it is that right? I wonder if it's good synergy with the cans you are using.
  
 Thanks for sharing. I look forward to trying the MUSES out as soon as they arrive!


----------



## Deterministic NL

k.t. said:


> Great thread, Deterministic:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/719168/fiio-e12diy-mini-mini-review
> 
> ...


 
 Whoops forgot to mention that I am using Sony MDR-V6.  I have searched the world over for fantastic headphones and I keep coming back to the MDR-V6.  In a day or so I should get my Sennheiser HD598 and will see what they sound like. 
  
 I briefly put my Sennheiser HD650 on the E12DIY and didn't like it.  The gain drove them okay but I just didn't like the sound.  They only sound good on tubes to me.


----------



## PinkLed

So I took your advice Deterministic and tried out the BUF634 again and do like the BUF634 better. It makes my TF10 sound much warmer then the LME49600 imo. I feel as if it removed some texture but reduced the harshness of the amp adding to the overall smoothness of the sound. Its very boomy now but thats the sound I like.


----------



## renefg

I have an audiophile officemate test out my E12 DIY with Muse 02 and he is really impressed with the soundstage (he owns a different Fiio model as well as with another officemate w/ whom we exchange gears to audition headsets w/ different Fiio Amps/DACs).
  
 He is asking me (since E12 DIY is a limited edition) if there are other amps out there that already use Muse 02 as the default?  So I guess he is looking for an equivalent E12 DIY w/ Muse 02 mini-amp.
  
 I hope his question still qualifies in this thread.  If not kindly disregard.
  
 Cheers,
 Rene


----------



## PinkLed

Muses arrived today, had to file away about half the thickness of the case, 1" deep to make them fit smooth, but it was all worth it. What a massive improvement. Have only tried the muses02 so far. First song I listened to was ELP's The Barbarian. Just amazing, really nice soundstage, improved clarity, transparency and still keeps a nice warmth. Cant wait to try out the muses01 but getting the muses02 legs into the right position made me cringe. Didnt want to break off a 70$ leg. I might wait until the HA-5002 gets here until I try them out. Defiantly worth it though for anyone wondering if it is. Takes the E12 to the next level.


----------



## CH23

Just ordered the HA-5002 chips.

I hope the sale goes through, as RS-online officially only serves companies...

If i order the brown dog adaptors without pins, i could solder my own pins underneath it, making it a better fit, right?


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> Just ordered the HA-5002 chips.
> 
> I hope the sale goes through, as RS-online officially only serves companies...
> 
> If i order the brown dog adaptors without pins, i could solder my own pins underneath it, making it a better fit, right?


 
  
 I got mine from RS so you should be fine as I don't order as a company as such.


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> I got mine from RS so you should be fine as I don't order as a company as such.




The netherlands' version of the website only allows you to order with a 'chamber of commerce' (kamer van koophandel) number.

I filled in 0 and can only hope.

It's really ******* that you can't order these as consumer here. As with most stuff. Makes me properly mad.


Also trying to order the silmic II caps, but i have no idea which ones i should get. This isn't my area of expertise.
There's a lot of different voltage levels and micro faraday(?) levels.

http://www.audio-cube.nl/elnaform.htm 

ClieOS mentioned the 22microF ones, at 6.3 volt, but those aren't on the list?


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> I got mine from RS so you should be fine as I don't order as a company as such.




How did you do this, my order was just bounced by them.

I'm quite pissed about this right now.


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> How did you do this, my order was just bounced by them.
> 
> I'm quite pissed about this right now.


 
  
 That sucks. There must be different rules in different countries. Over here I have the option to include an ABN (Australian Business Number), but I don't have to.
  
 I'd offer to buy it here and ship it to you, but it would probably be cheaper to start a company!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Jokes aside, if there's any way I can help feel free to PM me


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> That sucks. There must be different rules in different countries. Over here I have the option to include an ABN (Australian Business Number), but I don't have to.
> 
> I'd offer to buy it here and ship it to you, but it would probably be cheaper to start a company!!  Jokes aside, if there's any way I can help feel free to PM me




Thank you for the offer but i try to ship as little as possible from outside europe. I'll try england next, and if that doesn't work, i'll ask some companies i know if they're willing to order it for me.

There's always a way


----------



## nmatheis

Wondering if someone in the US can help a brother out and set me up with a functional HA-5002 + Brown Dog and/or OPA627 + Fiio adaptor combo. I'd be willing to pay for parts, time, and shipping, of course. I'd also supply my Fiio side by side adaptor for the OPA627. 

Thanks!
Nikolaus


----------



## SpitFir3

nmatheis said:


> Wondering if someone in the US can help a brother out and set me up with a functional HA-5002 + Brown Dog and/or OPA627 + Fiio adaptor combo. I'd be willing to pay for parts, time, and shipping, of course. I'd also supply my Fiio side by side adaptor for the OPA627.
> 
> Thanks!
> Nikolaus


 
  
 I am from Singapore and wonder if anyone could set me up with a HA5002 + Browndog too


----------



## PinkLed

I should receive my HA5002 and brown dog today. I have a question regarding the positioning to solder the buffer and the position to install it into the amp. Can someone, who has done this of course, take close up picture of their installation and soldering or explain what direction everything goes. Thanks again head-fiers!


----------



## Audio Reiner

My order HA-5002 is arrived last week and since today morning the BrownDog adapters are also there. I soldered the chips onto the bottom side of the adapters and shortened the pins. Soldering so small chips is very very tricky and I had to use magnifier glasses and the smallest soldering iron I ever used before. But it was successful.
  
 And now I compare the 2 MUSES amps again and I can say, there is an great difference between MUSES01 and MUSES02.
  
 Because I love a 3D-sound with maximal room impression, I love the breath of the music, the clear but not sharp playback of the highs and I love strong and black basses, now I prefer the MUSES02 in this combination.

 fiioX5 + E12DIY + AKG K3003i
  
 For E12DIY - Highly recommended:
*HA-5002 + MUSES02 + Silmic II capacitors (22uF 25V)*
  
  
 Edit: I found a audible highlight for fans of operas:
 Mozart: Don Giovanni [harmonia mundi]


----------



## PinkLed

audio reiner said:


> My order HA-5002 is arrived last week and since today morning the BrownDog adapters are also there. I soldered the chips onto the bottom side of the adapters and shortened the pins. Soldering so small chips is very very tricky and I had to use magnifier glasses and the smallest soldering iron I ever used before. But it was successful.
> 
> And now I compare the 2 MUSES amps again and I can say, there is an great difference between MUSES01 and MUSES02.
> 
> ...


 
 In regards to the Silmic did you get the 60mA or 80mA ripple current?


----------



## Audio Reiner

pinkled said:


> In regards to the Silmic did you get the 60mA or 80mA ripple current?


 
 I use the version with 80mA ripple current.


----------



## PinkLed

audio reiner said:


> I use the version with 80mA ripple current.


 
 Thanks! good to know also that the E12DIY is being paired with iems of the AKG K3003i quality. 
  
 Alo and Ray Samuels need to watch their backs


----------



## ClieOS

audio reiner said:


> My order HA-5002 is arrived last week and since today morning the BrownDog adapters are also there. I soldered the chips onto the bottom side of the adapters and shortened the pins. Soldering so small chips is very very tricky and I had to use magnifier glasses and the smallest soldering iron I ever used before. But it was successful.
> 
> And now I compare the 2 MUSES amps again and I can say, there is an great difference between MUSES01 and MUSES02.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good thing you hold on to them a bit longer


----------



## Loquah

spitfir3 said:


> I am from Singapore and wonder if anyone could set me up with a HA5002 + Browndog too


 
  
 I might be able to, but not sure the cost of shipping and need to get mine sorted first to ensure no issues with soldering etc.


----------



## Deterministic NL

Are these the HA-5002 that everyone is raving about here?
  
 http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?vendor=0&keywords=HA9P5002-5Z


----------



## ClieOS

deterministic nl said:


> Are these the HA-5002 that everyone is raving about here?
> 
> http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?vendor=0&keywords=HA9P5002-5Z


 
  
 Yes.


----------



## Loquah

I received and installed my HA9P500s yesterday and I'm impressed at first listen. To my ears they are a subtle, but noticeable improvement over the LME49600 while overall maintaining a similar presentation. Compared to the LME, the HA500 is a little more spacious sounding and with really nice channel separation and detail.
  
 I also tried LME49990 as the op amp (with both buffers above), but settled back to OPA1611 with HA500 as my preferred combo.


----------



## CH23

deterministic nl said:


> Are these the HA-5002 that everyone is raving about here?
> 
> http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?vendor=0&keywords=HA9P5002-5Z




Have you ordered those yet?


----------



## Deterministic NL

ch23 said:


> Have you ordered those yet?


 
 No I haven't . Not sure if I will or not.


----------



## Audio Reiner

deterministic nl said:


> No I haven't . Not sure if I will or not.




You should do it.


----------



## Loquah

I've spent some more time with the E12DIY today and a few different combos of op amps and buffers, but I keep coming back to the OPA1611 + LME49600 combo. I tried the HA9P500 (HA-500) today with the OPA1611 and with the LME49990, but nothing has quite the space and definition that the 1611/49600 combo provides. I actually preferred the X5's HP out to the HA-500/OPA1611 combo. Not sure if I'm missing something, but short of going for the MUSES which I haven't yet, I can't seem to find anything which improves on the provided options.
  
 It's probably worth noting that I have tried these combos only with UM Miracles so there may be certain synergies at play which could completely change impressions with other ear / headphones.


----------



## MistahBungle

loquah said:


> I've spent some more time with the E12DIY today and a few different combos of op amps and buffers, but I keep coming back to the OPA1611 + LME49600 combo. I tried the HA9P500 (HA-500) today with the OPA1611 and with the LME49990, but nothing has quite the space and definition that the 1611/49600 combo provides. I actually preferred the X5's HP out to the HA-500/OPA1611 combo. Not sure if I'm missing something, but short of going for the MUSES which I haven't yet, I can't seem to find anything which improves on the provided options.
> 
> It's probably worth noting that I have tried these combos only with UM Miracles so there may be certain synergies at play which could completely change impressions with other ear / headphones.




Think I'll save my money then )


----------



## Loquah

mistahbungle said:


> Think I'll save my money then )


 

 Maybe, but I'm interested to hear from others as to how / why they find the HA500 better


----------



## jml239

First post ever. I am currently using AD8620+LME49600 and it sounds pretty good, Close to my DAC. I want to know if MUSES and HA9P500 are really that great of a leap. If both are used, will it be a huge leap?


----------



## ClieOS

Just want to point out that it is HA-5002, by Intersil, not HA-500. The SOIC part number is HA9P5002, come as either 5Z or 9Z version. 9Z has a more extended temperature range but the performance should be the same as the 5Z.


----------



## PinkLed

reima said:


> I know, here is a photo of the Browndog HA-5002 to BUF634 Adapter (p/n 110101) in my E12DIY.
> 
> 
> 
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302-1.aspx


 
 Can anyone tell me what direction the HA5002 would be installed on the Brown Dog in relation to this picture? I understand it would be on the under side but what direction. Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

pinkled said:


> Can anyone tell me what direction the HA5002 would be installed on the Brown Dog in relation to this picture? I understand it would be on the under side but what direction. Thanks


 
  
 Do you mean the orientation on how the SOIC is soldered to the adapter, or how the adapter is plugged into the socket on E12DIY?
  
 If it is the first, the adapter has marked dot (on teh SOIC soldering area) to tell you where the 1st pin should be.
  
 If it is the 2nd, you can see the square marking on the adapter, tell you where the 1st pin (of the adapter) is. As you can see, the 1st pin is pointing inward into the case (which is opposite to the direction of opamp socket).


----------



## PinkLed

clieos said:


> Do you mean the orientation on how the SOIC is soldered to the adapter, or how the adapter is plugged into the socket on E12DIY?
> 
> If it is the first, the adapter has marked dot (on teh SOIC soldering area) to tell you where the 1st pin should be.
> 
> If it is the 2nd, you can see the square marking on the adapter, tell you where the 1st pin (of the adapter) is. As you can see, the 1st pin is pointing inward into the case (which is opposite to the direction of opamp socket).


 
 Thanks again ClieOS, So what your saying is ...
  

 (A) would tell me the location of pin 1 as from top view. (B) is pin 1 and the white dot (C) on the brown dog indicates 1?


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Just want to point out that it is HA-5002, by Intersil, not HA-500. The SOIC part number is HA9P5002, come as either 5Z or 9Z version. 9Z has a more extended temperature range but the performance should be the same as the 5Z.


 
  
 Sorry - that's my error which has continued through my posts and others'
  


pinkled said:


> Thanks again ClieOS, So what your saying is ...
> 
> 
> (A) would tell me the location of pin 1 as from top view. (B) is pin 1 and the white dot (C) on the brown dog indicates 1?


 
  
 Correct. There is a a small indented dot on the top of the SOIC chip which should be aligned in the same direction as the dot on the adapter (as you have circled). The indent can be hard to see without a good light source. When installing the adapters into the E12DIY, there is a white square around one of the pins (see back left corners of adapters in the picture a few posts up) which should be at the end with the groove in the socket.


----------



## PinkLed

loquah said:


> Sorry - that's my error which has continued through my posts and others'
> 
> 
> Correct. There is a a small indented dot on the top of the SOIC chip which should be aligned in the same direction as the dot on the adapter (as you have circled). The indent can be hard to see without a good light source. When installing the adapters into the E12DIY, there is a white square around one of the pins (see back left corners of adapters in the picture a few posts up) which should be at the end with the groove in the socket.


 
 Much appreciated, I hope this post helps others looking to use the HA5002. Mouser has them backordered for 10 weeks now unfortunately. They have over 7000 on order!


----------



## ClieOS

pinkled said:


> Much appreciated, I hope this post helps others looking to use the HA5002. Mouser has them backordered for 10 weeks now unfortunately. They have over 7000 on order!


 
  
 As I have said two weeks ago:
  
  


clieos said:


> Cancel the HA-5002 order from Mouser and get it from RS Components instead, readily stock and cheaper price too (they run under alliedelec.com in the US). Element14 (newark.com) and digikey.com also carry stock.


----------



## PinkLed

clieos said:


>


 
 Just reordered them from digikey.com. They seem to be the only ones that have them available in stock for immediate shipment for anyone looking to get them now. Thank you ClieOS.


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> Sorry - that's my error which has continued through my posts and others'
> 
> 
> Correct. There is a a small indented dot on the top of the SOIC chip which should be aligned in the same direction as the dot on the adapter (as you have circled). The indent can be hard to see without a good light source. When installing the adapters into the E12DIY, there is a white square around one of the pins (see back left corners of adapters in the picture a few posts up) which should be at the end with the groove in the socket.


 
 I'm trying to map this out in my brain.  Wouldn't you have to bend every pin to flip the chip upside down on the bottom?  Does anyone have a picture of one soldered on the bottom of the board?


----------



## Loquah

deterministic nl said:


> I'm trying to map this out in my brain.  Wouldn't you have to bend every pin to flip the chip upside down on the bottom?  Does anyone have a picture of one soldered on the bottom of the board?


 

 LOL. No, there are a separate set of contacts on the bottom of the Brown Dog adapter so you just lay it down with the pins facing up and solder the chip in place the same as you would on top of the adapter.


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> LOL. No, there are a separate set of contacts on the bottom of the Brown Dog adapter so you just lay it down with the pins facing up and solder the chip in place the same as you would on top of the adapter.


 
 You misunderstood my question I think a little but I probably wasn't clear.  I figured it out after looking at it on paper a thousand times. I'm debating on whether to go this route or not and wanted to get it all straight in my mind.  The adapter maps the pins out on the bottom to the top.  Pin one on top isn't pin one on the bottom.  That's where the bulk of my confusion came from. Thanks.  
  
 John


----------



## JamesFiiO

some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
  
 which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.


----------



## Deterministic NL

jamesfiio said:


> some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
> 
> which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.


 
 I'm not an IEM guy but I do love my E12DIY.  Best concept in portable audio EVER.  You guys are on to something going along these lines. My co-worker liked my E12DIY so much he ordered an E12 Mont Blanc and he's not even remotely a headphone guy.


----------



## Loquah

jamesfiio said:


> some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
> 
> which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.


 
  
 SOLD!! I would love that, James, as would many others I think.


----------



## MistahBungle

Hell yes I'd be interested in one of those  (my wallet won't like it much though)


----------



## ClieOS

deterministic nl said:


> You misunderstood my question I think a little but I probably wasn't clear.  I figured it out after looking at it on paper a thousand times. I'm debating on whether to go this route or not and wanted to get it all straight in my mind.  The adapter maps the pins out on the bottom to the top.  Pin one on top isn't pin one on the bottom.  That's where the bulk of my confusion came from. Thanks.
> 
> John


 
  
 You should solder following the marking on the adapter, whichever side you are on. Don't worry about which one is pin 1 on the adapter - just follow the marking and you will be fine.
  






 
 The red arrows are the marking of where the pin 1 (of the buffer) should be when you are soldering. As long as the you soldering correctly as the marking tells you so, it does NOT matter where the pin 1 (blue) of the adapter is. The adapter + chip as a whole will always works correctly, as it is designed as such.


----------



## ClieOS

jamesfiio said:


> some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
> 
> which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.


 
  
 Cool. I'll suggest, since this is designed for IEM, that the gain setting should be +3dB and -6dB (just an example). A negative gain can be very useful on strong input signal, such as 2Vrms.


----------



## JamesFiiO

clieos said:


> Cool. I'll suggest, since this is designed for IEM, that the gain setting should be +3dB and -6dB (just an example). A negative gain can be very useful on strong input signal, such as 2Vrms.


 
  
 1, Yes, the gain may change to -3dB and +6dB.
  
 2, The power supply may change to +/- 7.4V . but not decided yet cause the high power supply can provide better SQ.
  
 3, The bass and crossfeed will be removed.


----------



## PinkLed

jamesfiio said:


>


 
 Very cool james! I have to say though my triple fi 10 sound great with the E12DIY. The hiss only exists on high gain. Maybe because having three drivers the TF10s require more output? I do not know.


----------



## nmatheis

jamesfiio said:


> some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
> 
> which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.




Good idea, James!




clieos said:


> Cool. I'll suggest, since this is designed for IEM, that the gain setting should be +3dB and -6dB (just an example). A negative gain can be very useful on strong input signal, such as 2Vrms.




Great suggestion, ClieOS!


----------



## K.T.

jamesfiio said:


> some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
> 
> which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.


 
  
 Wow, I am excited about this. MUSES02 in a portable headphone amp? That would be a first!
  
 I guess it depends on which IEMs you use, but I didn't notice an issue with hiss with the handful of IEMs I own (UE900, Westone 3, Audeo PFE122, etc). So it didn't even cross my mind that an amp specifically for IEMs was even a thing.
  
 What is the projected price? I think the E12DIY was going for about $250 on Amazon. I know the MUSES are expensive chips. I'm very curious as to the price point.
  
 Going to try the MUSES02+LME49600 in my E12DIY to see how I like it. I may just get one of these new amps!
  
 PS - I personally think keeping the rail voltages higher for better sound would be the way to go.


----------



## CH23

jamesfiio said:


> some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
> 
> which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.




Sounds great!

My poor wallet


----------



## doki81

jamesfiio said:


> some news share with you guys. we are considering to make a E12IEM version for IEM user. cause the output power of E12 is too high and the hiss is a little bigger too. so we will develop a E12IEM
> 
> which is based on E12DIY, and we will use MUSES02+LME49600.


 
 how can we pre-order one?


----------



## WCDchee

Sorry for this but to any singaporeans out there, if you happen to have extra muses / HA5002 chips that you dont mind selling could you pm me?  s sorry for hijacking the thread thanks!!!


----------



## Paulo83

I may be over simplifying here but why not just make an e12 with settings for iem and full size cans? Might cost a bit more but I'd be first in line if it comes with the muses or even better DIY style....


----------



## Deterministic NL

Well I've decided to go ahead and jump into the HA-5002 buffer and brown dog adapter game. Why can't I leave well enough alone?  Get this great kit with all manner of OpAmps and buffers and buy both an opamp and buffer outside of the kit.  We must all be crazy.
  
 I placed an order for 4 of each. In the event I actually successfully construct them all I'll have a set to sell maybe unless I just enjoy rolling through them or buy another amp which of course if history is any indicator is possible.


----------



## ClieOS

paulo83 said:


> I may be over simplifying here but why not just make an e12 with settings for iem and full size cans? Might cost a bit more but I'd be first in line if it comes with the muses or even better DIY style....


 
  
 Many have tried and they often end up with an amp that is neither great with full size nor IEM.


----------



## CH23

I was already very happy with the E12DIY.
Then today the MUSE 01 and 02 came in.

I had to bend all the contacts straight, for which i had learned in the past that you should never be _too_ careful.

Now listening with the MUSE 02, and the slight warm sound is perfect for my bass light IEMs.

I'm lucky, the case closes easily on my E12DIY with the MUSE02 in it!


Now waiting for the silmic II caps and HA-5002 buffers+brown dog adaptors...

(I'd love to post a picture, but my iphone won't allow me in it's current state)


----------



## HK_sends

Hey everyone,
  
 I swapped out my first OpAmp (Muses02) and then opened the case back up to try the LME49600 buffer.  That's when I noticed something a little disturbing; there's a compressible pin in on the bottom of the PCB board near the front of the amp with a beveled area to allow it to easily compress.  I was careful when I opened up the amp case but noticed that instead of being compressed, the sleeve around the pin was actually bent.  The E12 DIY still appears to work just fine but I was wondering if anyone else noticed this on their amp and if it is something I should be worried over or is it something to RMA the amp about?  When I close the case now, I use a toothpick to push the pin in some in fear of breaking it further but I know I am going to want to swap more OpAmps and Buffers in the future.  Thanks for any help and advice you can give!
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 -HK sends


----------



## CH23

hk_sends said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I swapped out my first OpAmp (Muses02) and then opened the case back up to try the LME49600 buffer.  That's when I noticed something a little disturbing; there's a compressible pin in on the bottom of the PCB board near the front of the amp with a beveled area to allow it to easily compress.  I was careful when I opened up the amp case but noticed that instead of being compressed, the sleeve around the pin was actually bent.  The E12 DIY still appears to work just fine but I was wondering if anyone else noticed this on their amp and if it is something I should be worried over or is it something to RMA the amp about?  When I close the case now, I use a toothpick to push the pin in some in fear of breaking it further but I know I am going to want to swap more OpAmps and Buffers in the future.  Thanks for any help and advice you can give!
> Cheers!
> -HK sends




It's nothing to worry about.

That pin is there to "ground" the PCB to the case, mine's quite loose as well.


----------



## HK_sends

ch23 said:


> It's nothing to worry about.
> 
> That pin is there to "ground" the PCB to the case, mine's quite loose as well.


 
 Whew! Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I was afraid I messed something up badly.  Thanks for the info!
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## Deterministic NL

Well I received and soldered up my HA-5002's and replaced them in the buffer position with the MUSES02 as opamp and I can succinctly declare that "THIS IS IT".  This is the best sound I can squeeze out of the E12DIY.  It is just the sound, soundstage, coloring, highs, lows that suit my style of listening.   Just amazing sound.
  
 To be safe I ordered four of each the chip and the Brown Dog Adapters.  I soldered up all four and all four work.  What that means is I have a left over pair already constructed and tested.  Anybody wants them make an offer.  Parts were about $21, shipping costs a few bucks to and from and probably worth a couple dollars to already have them made if you aren't a solderer.


----------



## Loquah

deterministic nl said:


> Well I received and soldered up my HA-5002's and replaced them in the buffer position with the MUSES02 as opamp and I can succinctly declare that "THIS IS IT".  This is the best sound I can squeeze out of the E12DIY.  It is just the sound, soundstage, coloring, highs, lows that suit my style of listening.   Just amazing sound.
> 
> To be safe I ordered four of each the chip and the Brown Dog Adapters.  I soldered up all four and all four work.  What that means is I have a left over pair already constructed and tested.  Anybody wants them make an offer.  Parts were about $21, shipping costs a few bucks to and from and probably worth a couple dollars to already have them made if you aren't a solderer.


 
  
 Have you tried the MUSES02 with LME49600? I haven't been impressed by HA-5002 compared to LME49600 so I'm curious if it's a case of synergy between the HA-5002 and MUSES02 (which I don't have) because HA-5002 with OPA1611 is not as good as with LME49600.


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> Have you tried the MUSES02 with LME49600? I haven't been impressed by HA-5002 compared to LME49600 so I'm curious if it's a case of synergy between the HA-5002 and MUSES02 (which I don't have) because HA-5002 with OPA1611 is not as good as with LME49600.


 
 I have tried them and I much prefer the HA-5002's.  At least this week anyway!


----------



## Loquah

deterministic nl said:


> I have tried them and I much prefer the HA-5002's.  At least this week anyway!


 
  
 Sorry to be demanding 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but can you say what you prefer about the HA-5002 compared to the LME49600? Just trying to work out if this is just a difference in tastes or something to do with synergy.


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> Sorry to be demanding
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well seemed like things got clearer and the soundstage separated a bit for me.  Might just be a matter of taste but whatever it is I like it.


----------



## renefg

[also sent via pm]
 Hi Determnistic NL!
  
 Am interested in buying your soldered spare set so I can use as a buffer togther w/ my Muse02.
  
 Where are you residing and how much are you selling?
  
 I can pay you via paypal.
  
 Although I live in the Philippines, I can receive it via a US Los Angeles address.
  
 Do please reserve it for me 
  
 Cheers,
 Rene


----------



## Wyd4

Anyone just love this amp even in stock form?
 I am currently using this with HTC One - beyer m200p - e12DIY - Mad Dog 3.2 and it sounds fantastic.
  
 I have done some searching for what sounds like what as far as opamp options etc, but there are so many posts with opamp in them that I just gave up and listened as it comes.
  
 Enjoying it a lot.
  
 Thanks to @Loquah for the suggestion!!!
  
 Scott


----------



## Loquah

wyd4 said:


> Anyone just love this amp even in stock form?
> I am currently using this with HTC One - beyer m200p - e12DIY - Mad Dog 3.2 and it sounds fantastic.
> 
> I have done some searching for what sounds like what as far as opamp options etc, but there are so many posts with opamp in them that I just gave up and listened as it comes.
> ...


 
  
 Glad you're loving it and you're welcome for the recommendation.
  
 It's all a question of symmetry, but the OPA1611+LME49600 is still a winner to my ears


----------



## JamesFiiO

wcdchee said:


> Sorry for this but to any singaporeans out there, if you happen to have extra muses / HA5002 chips that you dont mind selling could you pm me?  s sorry for hijacking the thread thanks!!!


 
  
 sorry, we don't sell the muses or ha5002.


----------



## ClassicalViola

wyd4 said:


> Anyone just love this amp even in stock form?
> I am currently using this with HTC One - beyer m200p - e12DIY - Mad Dog 3.2 and it sounds fantastic.
> 
> I have done some searching for what sounds like what as far as opamp options etc, but there are so many posts with opamp in them that I just gave up and listened as it comes.
> ...


 
 Hehe, guess what? I've owned and been using my E12DIY for almost 2 months now and I have yet to unscrew the cover to roll between opamps and buffers because I feel that the stock combo just sounds great with what I have. Recently I tried it with the iBasso DX90 Line Out and HD 650 on high gain and I found the results very satisfactory. Everything sounds clean and clear. There is just very slight background hiss when the track is super silent (e.g. classical symphonic/orchestral tracks), but it's not in your face, so I'm not bothered by that at all. Very very happy with this portable amplifier so far. Who knows, maybe I'll find some of the other stock combos even more amazing? We'll see when I finally decide to get into the DIY part of owning this amp.


----------



## PinkLed

The stock sound is great, but the biggest improvement Ive noticed is with the muses01 or muses02. I currently have the HA-5002 in but the improvement is minimal over the stock. The muses are the biggest leap Id say, a certainly noticeable difference.


----------



## K.T.

The stock chips are a great place to start.
  
 If you like them the best, then they are the ones for you!
  
 You do owe it to yourself to explore the other chips, however. You might find something you like even better. Or not.
  
 But it's easy to do and worth trying the other choices to see.
  
 Plenty of choices to satisfy everyone!


----------



## PinkLed

One update on the HA-5002 impressions, the static noise I was experiencing on high gain with IEMs is completely gone. I was second guessing if soldering those little things was worth it time and price wise. It is IMO if you plan on using IEMs. Did not try the E12DIY on high gain for some time since I had static with all of the stock chips on high gain, I was pleasantly surprised today to find this out.


----------



## Loquah

I've had some static issues too, but it's normally solved by removing and reseating the buffer/op amp so I think it's something to do with th contact between the adapters and the PCB rather than being caused by the chips themselves.

On other related matters, I've spent some time rolling op amps with the HA-5002 today and think either the OPA604 (stock option) or LME49990 (bought separately) are my favorites so far (no MUSES in my collection yet). I find the HA-5002 is much thicker sounding than the LME49600 so it's probably a good match for more analytical / neutral headphones. Once determined, I'll compare my preferred 5002 combo with my current preference of OPA1611/LME49600


----------



## ClieOS

Any more interest in HA-5002? I reckon I can offer my labor* for free* and make a few pair of them if some of you are still interested in getting a pair. I'll get the parts needed, built and tested them out, then send them to you.
  
 As per forum's rule, I won't be making money over them, but you will have to pay for all the parts and shipping fee. The cost will roughly be HA-5002 x 2 = US$16.50 (from RS Malaysia), adapter x 2 = US$8.20 (including shipping from BrownDog to me), packaging = US$1 (padded envelop), and shipping fee from me to you (unknown, but usually international registered air mail with tracking should be less than US$10. EMS however can go over US$20 easily. Cheaper if you are in S.E.Asia and more expensive if you are further away). So the estimated cost will be around US$36 or so, depends on shipping.
  
 It will take about a month or so from ordering parts to delivery to you, mostly because the time it will take for the BrownDog adapter to shipping from the US to Malaysia, where I live, then from Malaysia to where you are. I have no control over the postal service so I can't give you a precise time. However, tracking will be available once I sent the finished HA-5002 to you. Also, please understanding that I am only doing this for fun of DIYing, so this isn't exactly a commercial built and I do have a day job to attend to.
  
 Payment will be made via Paypal and you are expected to cover any applicable Paypal fee, as I don't want to lose money over this since I am not charging for any profit. Full payment when I am ready to ship. If fail to pay within a week of notification, the adapters will go to public listing in the for sale forum or else where. Right now I am planning to make about 5 pairs max. If there is enough interest, we can arrange for more.
  
 Please register in the for sale forum thread to reserve your pair: http://www.head-fi.org/t/722671/ha-5002-browndog-adapter-for-fiio-e12diy


----------



## Loquah

I've spent a lot of time testing different op-amp / buffer combos over the last few days and finally understand why people like the HA-5002 and LME49990 combo. While the OPA1611/LME49600 combo is strong on detail, it can seem a bit unnaturally emphasised at certain frequencies (treble mostly). The LME49990/HA-5002 combo is more subtle and may sound a bit rolled-off at first (which I still think it is slightly), but what it gives in return is excellent note weight and realism in the staging. The sound becomes more solid and holographic with the LME49990/HA-5002 combo without really sacrificing anything other than some treble extension. This makes it less prone to fatigue and, to my ears at least, doesn't cost in terms of treble detail and texture, just emphasis.
  
 I'm yet to try any DIP-8 op amps (i.e. MUSES) in the DIY as the clearance on my case is not even close to fitting so I'm reluctant to shave away as much aluminium as would be required.
  
 For anyone who has tried the LME49990 op amp and MUSES01/02 op amps (preferably with the HA-5002 buffer), how would you compare the signature and staging of the MUSES compared to the LME49990?


----------



## doki81

loquah said:


> I've spent a lot of time testing different op-amp / buffer combos over the last few days and finally understand why people like the HA-5002 and LME49990 combo. While the OPA1611/LME49600 combo is strong on detail, it can seem a bit unnaturally emphasised at certain frequencies (treble mostly). The LME49990/HA-5002 combo is more subtle and may sound a bit rolled-off at first (which I still think it is slightly), but what it gives in return is excellent note weight and realism in the staging. The sound becomes more solid and holographic with the LME49990/HA-5002 combo without really sacrificing anything other than some treble extension. This makes it less prone to fatigue and, to my ears at least, doesn't cost in terms of treble detail and texture, just emphasis.
> 
> I'm yet to try any DIP-8 op amps (i.e. MUSES) in the DIY as the clearance on my case is not even close to fitting so I'm reluctant to shave away as much aluminium as would be required.
> 
> For anyone who has tried the LME49990 and MUSES01/02. How would you compare the signature and staging of the MUSES compared to the LME49990?


 
 for me ..i only have the default LME49600......and when pair with MUSES01 ...it bring the music with much more warmer and tighter bass on my UM mentor...i have muses02 too but it pair better with BUF634...


----------



## Loquah

doki81 said:


> for me ..i only have the default LME49600......and when pair with MUSES01 ...it bring the music with much more warmer and tighter bass on my UM mentor...i have muses02 too but it pair better with BUF634...


 
  
 Thanks doki. Would you describe the MUSES as having spacious or intimate soundstages?


----------



## doki81

loquah said:


> Thanks doki. Would you describe the MUSES as having spacious or intimate soundstages?


 
 slightly on spacious side..... if 1 is intimate and 10 is spacious....muses01 and LME49600 combo is on 6-7 side


----------



## Loquah

doki81 said:


> slightly on spacious side..... if 1 is intimate and 10 is spacious....muses01 and LME49600 combo is on 6-7 side


 

 Nice - sounds like what I would enjoy. Now the only challenge is trying to modify my case sufficiently without weakening the metal.


----------



## DMax99

Just jumped on the diy wagon... Which combo gives the most spacious sound?


----------



## Loquah

dmax99 said:


> Just jumped on the diy wagon... Which combo gives the most spacious sound?


 
  
 I really like the OPA1611 + LME49600 combo from the provided kit for a spacious, detailed sound.


----------



## Fiiorless

The LME49990 LME49600 combination sounds the most spacious to me but is less enjoyable to listen to than the MUSES02 LME49600 combination which seems to have more treble detail especially listening on the SHURE 1840's.
  
 The OPA1611 LME9600  is far and away my favourite of the supplied combinations.
  
 As an aside I measured the output impedance with various buffer opamp combinations and it varies between .13 and .20 ohms from 100hz to 20 KHz. The lowest impedance was with the factory shipped combination but as we are talking about .01 ohm differences its not really significant. What surprises me the most is how much better the bass sounds with the MUSES02, it is not at all subtle.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Here is a list of OPAMPS that I want to get:
  
 LME49860
 NE5532
 LM4562
 LME49720
 NJM2114
 NJM4580
 NJM4558
 NJM4556
 OPA2111
 OPA2134
 OPA2227
 OPA2604
 OPA2107
  
 Is it safe to buy one of those OPAMPS on ebay or do I have a big chance of getting a counterfeit product?


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> ...
> Is it safe to buy one of those OPAMPS on ebay or do I have a big chance of getting a counterfeit product?


 
  
 The question is, is there any reason why you can't buy them from a well-known electronics parts supplier?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> The question is, is there any reason why you can't buy them from a well-known electronics parts supplier?


 
  
 Cause on a 70$ purchase I'll have to pay a 75$ S&H fee to have it sent to Israel if I choose to buy from Mouser.


----------



## Fiiorless

Have a look at shipito.com
 I use them all the time, they can repost from 3 different states to avoid US state taxes and all up costs to Israel should be less than $20.


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> Cause on a 70$ purchase I'll have to pay a 75$ S&H fee to have it sent to Israel if I choose to buy from Mouser.


 
  
RS Components and element14 both operate in Israel, as far as I know. You should be able to find at least half of those opamp from either companies.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> RS Components and element14 both operate in Israel, as far as I know. You should be able to find at least half of those opamp from either companies.




Mouser has a branch in Israel too but they don't carry any stock so every order is shipped from the States.


----------



## K.T.

hal rockwell said:


> Here is a list of OPAMPS that I want to get:
> 
> LME49860
> NE5532
> ...


 
  
 The OPA627 is also a great choice. It's impressing me mightily.
  
 While on the slightly pricey side, it's easily available and is a good deal from Brown Dog (2 channels pre-soldered onto a Brown Dog adapter for $52, which is just a tad higher than just buying the chips themselves from Digikey or Mouser).
  
 http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx
  
 MUSES02 will probably supplant the OPA627 for me (after sufficient burn in), but OPA627 is a quality chip, no doubt.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Let's ask a different question: If I got the muses01 and the ha-5002,is there a reason to look any further?


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> The OPA627 is also a great choice. It's impressing me mightily.
> 
> While on the slightly pricey side, it's easily available and is a good deal from Brown Dog (2 channels pre-soldered onto a Brown Dog adapter for $52, which is just a tad higher than just buying the chips themselves from Digikey or Mouser).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Please note that dual OPA627 on a single-to-dual Brwondog adapter will not fit inside E12DIY.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> Please note that dual OPA627 on a single-to-dual Brwondog adapter will not fit inside E12DIY.




So any it renders any single opamp unusable with the E12DIY.


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> So any it renders any single opamp unusable with the E12DIY.


 
  
 Of course not. You just need to mount them on the blank adapters that come with your E12DIY (*they are underneath the foam, inside the metal box).


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> Please note that dual OPA627 on a single-to-dual Brwondog adapter will not fit inside E12DIY.




ClieOS,

You are right. I soldered some unmounted OPA627s onto the included side-by-side board for use in the E12DIY.

I was so satisfied with it in my E12DIY, I purchased the pre-mounted BrownDog OPA627s for use in my CMOYBB.

Indeed, if you will use them I the E12DIY, you'll want to get unmounted chips and solder them to the included boards. I forgot about the height limitation in the E12DIY.

My apologies to anyone who may have been confused by that.


----------



## Deterministic NL

Another great opamp / buffer combo.  
  
 I've been running MUSES02 with HA5002 with much love.
  
 Today I put in MUSES01 with BUF634 and I'm not sure but I think I like it better.  Vey musical, great mid range, great soundstage.  High end is a hair bright even for me who likes a really high bright end but I'll give it a little break in time.  This is with Sony MDR-V6 which are maybe my favorite headphones and I have some much more expensive cans but I always come back to these Sony's.   They really offer the best in what I like to hear. 
  
 Anyway my reference music is pretty doggone sweet with the MUSES01 combo and BUF634.  I'll run this a week then go back to the 02 and HA5002 and see what I think.
  
 At any rate the E12DIY is the coolest thing ever.  Might change the caps next.


----------



## Audio Reiner

I want to share my experience with the different amps and with different cables. As described in the entry above already, I also like a very open and clear reproduction with a big stage.
  
 And I think I have now found the holy grail.
  
 My E12DIY works with the MUSES02 and the HA-5002 and the Silmic capacitors. I liked the sound so far but lacked a bit of openness in the highs. This little bit more openness i have now reached by using a pure solid silver cable. It is a self-made cable with 4N silver. This means 99.99% pure silver. This cable is really highly recommended. The cable is so incredibly much better than the cable from the FiiO-stacking kit. That is now all what i was searching for.


----------



## Deterministic NL

Getting carried away soldering up the HA5002's and built up an extra set.  Email me at hagensieker@mac.com if interested.  This is it, not making any more.
  
 Also above and beyond that pair I have 1 additional one (because I screwed up it's twin).  So if for some bizarre reason you need just one and not a pair let me know.


----------



## Deterministic NL

More opamp / buffer rolling.  Got done playing with the MUSES02 and moved on to the MUSES01.  Paired it with BUF634 which I really enjoyed and now I popped the HA5002 back in.  Was a new pair just soldered up.  Kind of edgy at first but I just crank it up and let it play for a few hours first before listening.
  
 Still a little edgy but I like to give everything a few days to mellow out or get used to whatever is going on.   MUSES01 may be a tad less musical than MUSES02 but it certainly images like nothing I've heard for a while.  I'm starting to come to the conclusion that every combo of whatever you put in the E12DIY sounds good.  It's just a good amp.  
  
 Certainly you are going to prefer some combination of chips but I think this is just a fine amp.   I will say I prefer the MUSES to any of the other opamps however I have a couple OPA627's in the mail and that'll be the next roll. 
  
 MUSES01 or 02 is a winner with just about all the buffers.  I still think when it is all over I'm going to go back to MUSES02 and HA5002.  Then again I may stumble across something I like better.


----------



## Znuff89

Just got mine the other day. So excited to try this all out. I'm knowledgeable enough to be dangerous but certainly not in anyone in this forum's league lol. Ive read through all 87 pages and you guys are very impressive. 
Quick initial question...were your boxes sealed on the outside like Fiio typically does with their products? Mine wasn't so just wondering...


----------



## delrosa81

Am I still able to get the E12DIY brand new? I checked with the local distributor and retailer, they have no idea of the E12 DIY, so I'm guessing it wasn't shipping to be sold in Singapore in the first place. I checked ebay and they are going for USD300++ and even much more a pop!
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Znuff89

Amazon for US customers at least. Not sure how it works for outside US customers. Two sellers...ProStudio Sound & Music, and Quantum Wireless. Both list new items. I got mine from ProStudio fullfilled by Amazon. Box wasn't sealed, thus my above question to anyone who bought one.


----------



## delrosa81

znuff89 said:


> Amazon for US customers at least. Not sure how it works for outside US customers. Two sellers...ProStudio Sound & Music, and Quantum Wireless. Both list new items. I got mine from ProStudio fullfilled by Amazon. Box wasn't sealed, thus my above question to anyone who bought one.


 

 Thanks for the headsup, I saw on Amazon going for USD239, is that the price you got it at?


----------



## ClieOS

delrosa81 said:


> Am I still able to get the E12DIY brand new? I checked with the local distributor and retailer, they have no idea of the E12 DIY, so I'm guessing it wasn't shipping to be sold in Singapore in the first place. I checked ebay and they are going for USD300++ and even much more a pop!
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 You probably haven't checked with E1 Personal Audio. Last time I was there, they still have a few left. It is a limited edition so only very few retailers are able to get their hand on them.


----------



## Znuff89

I used the main one sold by ProStudio but fulfilled by Amazon. $249 free shipping. I thought the $239 had $8.95 shipping. Either way, I believe both sellers are reputable. I've seen fellow head fi'ers talk about using ProStudio so I bought from them. I assume both would be safe to buy from.


----------



## HK_sends

znuff89 said:


> I used the main one sold by ProStudio but fulfilled by Amazon. $249 free shipping. I thought the $239 had $8.95 shipping. Either way, I believe both sellers are reputable. I've seen fellow head fi'ers talk about using ProStudio so I bought from them. I assume both would be safe to buy from.


 
 ProStudio is who I got mine from.  No problems at all!
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 -HK sends


----------



## delrosa81

clieos said:


> You probably haven't checked with E1 Personal Audio. Last time I was there, they still have a few left. It is a limited edition so only very few retailers are able to get their hand on them.


 
 Yup I haven checked, thanks for the headsup, I will go check it out 
  


znuff89 said:


> I used the main one sold by ProStudio but fulfilled by Amazon. $249 free shipping. I thought the $239 had $8.95 shipping. Either way, I believe both sellers are reputable. I've seen fellow head fi'ers talk about using ProStudio so I bought from them. I assume both would be safe to buy from.


 
 Oic, thanks alot for sharing


----------



## K.T.

hk_sends said:


> ProStudio is who I got mine from.  No problems at all!
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I also got by second E12DIY from these guys through Amazon. No  problems at all.
  
 I got my first E12DIY directly from FiiO through the pre-order. Compared to that, the one from ProStudio is legit. Same thing, packaging and all, except color was silver instead of gold.
  
 I understand there are only around 2000 E12DIYs produced. I wonder how many of them are still in the wild, unclaimed.
  
 For what you get, and for how unique it is, $250 US seems like a very reasonable price for this amp.


----------



## HK_sends

k.t. said:


> I also got by second E12DIY from these guys through Amazon. No  problems at all.
> 
> I got my first E12DIY directly from FiiO through the pre-order. Compared to that, the one from ProStudio is legit. Same thing, packaging and all, except color was silver instead of gold.
> 
> ...


 
 I don't know but my Gold Edition was Serial #0039.  I just bought a second one from ProStudio myself.
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## delrosa81

hk_sends said:


> I don't know but my Gold Edition was Serial #0039.  I just bought a second one from ProStudio myself.
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Now I am considering whether to get the gold or the silver, hmmmmmm


----------



## delrosa81

Update!
  
 I ordered from Amazon Prostudio for the E12DIY Gold Limited Edition version since the price is the same as the silver and I prefer the gold! ETA should be early to mid next week and I am looking forward to receiving my Gold E12DIY!


----------



## JamesFiiO

k.t. said:


> I also got by second E12DIY from these guys through Amazon. No  problems at all.
> 
> I got my first E12DIY directly from FiiO through the pre-order. Compared to that, the one from ProStudio is legit. Same thing, packaging and all, except color was silver instead of gold.
> 
> ...


 
  
 only about 1,200 pcs E12DIY.


----------



## HK_sends

delrosa81 said:


> Now I am considering whether to get the gold or the silver, hmmmmmm


 
   Quote:


delrosa81 said:


> Update!
> 
> I ordered from Amazon Prostudio for the E12DIY Gold Limited Edition version since the price is the same as the silver and I prefer the gold! ETA should be early to mid next week and I am looking forward to receiving my Gold E12DIY!


 
 I originally ordered a silver one and ended up returning it because I liked the gold finish better.  The finish is very nice but understated and adds a little panache to my X5/E12 DIY stack...
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## HK_sends

delrosa81 said:


> Update!
> 
> I ordered from Amazon Prostudio for the E12DIY Gold Limited Edition version since the price is the same as the silver and I prefer the gold! ETA should be early to mid next week and I am looking forward to receiving my Gold E12DIY!


 
 Ordered my second one from them on Sunday night...it's out for delivery today (Tues)!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## K.T.

jamesfiio said:


> only about 1,200 pcs E12DIY.


 
  
 Wow, less than I thought!
  
 My highschool had around 2000 students. It's crazy to think that there are only 1,200 units of the E12DIY in the entire world.
  


hk_sends said:


> Quote:
> I originally ordered a silver one and ended up returning it because I liked the gold finish better.  The finish is very nice but understated and adds a little panache to my X5/E12 DIY stack...
> Cheers!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think it's a matter of taste. I have both, probably like the silver better, but it's really a tie for me.
  
 The gold color is quite subdued. I think it may be a little bit too subdued for my personal taste. I'd say it tends to the slightly bland side.
  
 It would be great if there were an offsetting color, like some red coloring; a red knob, or red lettering. I kind of wish the gold color were a little richer, something like iron man. Maybe a little more saturation. A little more "pop" in the color.
  
 Silver is cool and straight forward. Looks cleaner and brighter than the gold. 
  
 But you can't lose either way. It's a great amp!


----------



## HK_sends

k.t. said:


> Wow, less than I thought!
> 
> My highschool had around 2000 students. It's crazy to think that there are only 1,200 units of the E12DIY in the entire world.
> 
> ...


 
 You're absolutely right, it is just a matter of taste (or preference, or what-have-you).  I actually found the clean, bright silver as being too "standout-ish" stacked with the FiiO X5, whereas the subtle gold color faded to the background.  If anyone asks, I just tell them I wanted a color that matched the X5 jacks and not the buttons. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But that's the beauty of offering both colors...either will cater to the owner's taste.  And, as you said, you can't lose either way!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers and All the Best!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends
  
 P.S. - Although at first I was afraid the gold amp's sound might be a little "colored"...


----------



## delrosa81

hk_sends said:


> Quote:
> I originally ordered a silver one and ended up returning it because I liked the gold finish better.  The finish is very nice but understated and adds a little panache to my X5/E12 DIY stack...
> Cheers!
> 
> ...


 
 From pictures I think the Silver would look great if the Fiio wordings were red as in the early rendered photos. I gave some thought then I decided for the Gold as I think the Gold looks just that slightly better 
  


hk_sends said:


> Ordered my second one from them on Sunday night...it's out for delivery today (Tues)!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Wow! You mean you have 2 Gold E12DIYs? I have the standard E12 and if I get the Silver E12DIY, then I would have 3 E12 amps lol. So far other than the V Moda Verza, I think the next best looking portable amp on the market is the E12 and not to mention, powerful to boot 
  
 I gave away my X5 to a very good friend of mine, now I'm using the Sony ZX-1 / Sony PHA-2 / Fiio E12 stack. I will be swapping it out with the Gold E12DIY when it arrives and now I'm very tempted to get another Fiio X5 + the Standard E12 + the Fiio HS6 kit. Or should I order another silver E12diy? OMG! I think Im going crazy lol!


----------



## HK_sends

delrosa81 said:


> From pictures I think the Silver would look great if the Fiio wordings were red as in the early rendered photos. I gave some thought then I decided for the Gold as I think the Gold looks just that slightly better
> 
> Wow! *You mean you have 2 Gold E12DIYs?* I have the standard E12 and if I get the Silver E12DIY, then I would have 3 E12 amps lol. So far other than the V Moda Verza, I think the next best looking portable amp on the market is the E12 and not to mention, powerful to boot
> 
> I gave away my X5 to a very good friend of mine, now I'm using the Sony ZX-1 / Sony PHA-2 / Fiio E12 stack. I will be swapping it out with the Gold E12DIY when it arrives and now I'm very tempted to get another Fiio X5 + the Standard E12 + the Fiio HS6 kit. Or should I order another silver E12diy? OMG! I think Im going crazy lol!


 
 I guess I'm crazy that way.  I also have a iBasso DX90 along with my FiiO X5 so I might as well have two E12 DIY's. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends
  
 P.S.- I guess we all have to be crazy about something.


----------



## delrosa81

hk_sends said:


> I guess I'm crazy that way.  I also have a iBasso DX90 along with my FiiO X5 so I might as well have two E12 DIY's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Wow! Makes me very tempted to go out and get another X5 and another E12DIY in silver lol. I am thinking what am I gonna do with the Standard E12 lol.


----------



## HK_sends

delrosa81 said:


> Wow! Makes me very tempted to go out and get another X5 and another E12DIY in silver lol. I am thinking what am I gonna do with the Standard E12 lol.


 
 Use the "For Sale" forum to offset some of the cost.
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## Hal Rockwell

What is the best rotary tool attachment to grind the inside of the E12 cover so I can fit in the muses?


----------



## CH23

The HA-5002 and silmic II's are on their way from mouser!


----------



## renefg

jamesfiio said:


> only about 1,200 pcs E12DIY.


 
  
 Hi James,
  
 May I know if the gold edition units have the first serial numbers 1-500?
  
 Cheers,
 Rene


----------



## HK_sends

renefg said:


> Hi James,
> 
> May I know if the gold edition units have the first serial numbers 1-500?
> 
> ...


 
 My gold units are serial numbers 0039 and 0135.
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## delrosa81

hk_sends said:


> My gold units are serial numbers 0039 and 0135.
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> ...


 
 OMG! You got your 2nd Gold E12DIY already!? Full of envy for you! Mine will only arrive next week sighs.......


----------



## renefg

hk_sends said:


> My gold units are serial numbers 0039 and 0135.
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Mine is 0035, I reside in Manila, Philippines. I think we only have 5 units allocated here as per the authorized dealer Egghead.
  
 Cheers!
 Rene


----------



## CH23

renefg said:


> Hi James,
> 
> May I know if the gold edition units have the first serial numbers 1-500?
> 
> ...




My silver one is #190 iirc...


----------



## phlashbios

Anyone know of a UK supplier of the E12 DIY? or even a European supplier would be OK.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## magisterarus

You could buy it from the official italian distributor:

http://www.playstereo.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=95&products_id=2422


----------



## HK_sends

delrosa81 said:


> OMG! You got your 2nd Gold E12DIY already!? Full of envy for you! Mine will only arrive next week sighs.......


 
 From Nevada to California in about 24 hours, and I am nowhere near a major mail hub.  I was already listening to it last night after charging it up.
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## polishpaul

phlashbios said:


> Anyone know of a UK supplier of the E12 DIY? or even a European supplier would be OK.
> 
> Thanks.


 
  
  


magisterarus said:


> You could buy it from the official italian distributor:
> 
> http://www.playstereo.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=95&products_id=2422


 
  
 I got mine from playstereo, placed order sunday evening and it arrived on tuesday. didn't expect it so fast in ROI.
 and this can be the last one, there was only 2 of them when i was buying


----------



## CH23

Guys, i get static with my ha-5002's. Could i have heated them too hot, or might it be the acid, or are they fake?

I still get music, but there's noise as well. Even with the volume at lowest, and with no source conected.

Pic:


----------



## ClieOS

Could be that the pins are dirty or the connection isn't secured enough. Try cleaning the pins up, including the opamp's.


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> Could be that the pins are dirty or the connection isn't secured enough. Try cleaning the pins up, including the opamp's.




Tried this, doesn't help. Tried reflowing the solder, and now it's occasionally popping really loud as well.

I think i fried them. 

With another buffer everything functions as it should.


----------



## CH23

I'm now officially requesting help from someone with skill, and willing to order 2 ha-5002's, 2 browndog adapters, then sent them to me (for all of this you will be paid, obviously)

(Not sure if i'm allowed by the forum rules to ask this, but alas, i have no other choice)


----------



## ClieOS

ch23 said:


> I'm now officially requesting help from someone with skill, and willing to order 2 ha-5002's, 2 browndog adapters, then sent them to me (for all of this you will be paid, obviously)
> 
> (Not sure if i'm allowed by the forum rules to ask this, but alas, i have no other choice)


 
  
 Well, if you still can't find a pair by mid July, I'll probably reopen my HA-5002 build thread then.


----------



## beyerdude

I have a few OPA 627 part number OPA627BP-ND - 8 DIP - has anyone used these in the E12DIY with any success - I am guessing they will be too high and the case won't shut but you never know  any help appreciated. Impressed with the E12DIY so far but as usual with me it will stay 'stock' for all of 2 hours!!


----------



## ClieOS

beyerdude said:


> I have a few OPA 627 part number OPA627BP-ND - 8 DIP - has anyone used these in the E12DIY with any success - I am guessing they will be too high and the case won't shut but you never know  any help appreciated. Impressed with the E12DIY so far but as usual with me it will stay 'stock' for all of 2 hours!!


 
  
 Not just about height - single channel DIP8 (which OPA627 is) will never work on E12DIY, unless you make a special adapter yourself. Only dual channel DIP8 works without adapter.


----------



## beyerdude

clieos said:


> Not just about height - single channel DIP8 (which OPA627 is) will never work on E12DIY, unless you make a special adapter yourself. Only dual channel DIP8 works without adapter.


 
 Thanks - Have just spent the evening reading all of the posts from start to finish, used the opa627bp in a previous amp and had forgotten the ins and outs of op amps - lot to learn/remember - Have ordered 2 OPA627AU and may go for a MUSES 01 at a later stage - currently enjoying the OPA1611 and LMH6321 - beautiful combination with HD600!​


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Wanted to get your opinion on the matter. I plan on cutting the chassis along the black lines and cover it with a piece of a plexiglass sheet so that the insides of the amp can be visible. I think it will look great with that blue led light. What do you think?


----------



## ClieOS

Should look great, but I wonder if it will affect EMI shielding or not.


----------



## delrosa81

I supply transparent PET sheets that are conductive and very good for EMI shielding with resistance at < 5ohms/sq inch. It can be laminated onto clear acrylics with light transmission of 80%+++


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> Should look great, but I wonder if it will affect EMI shielding or not.




I can probably use it without the chassis for a day or two to see how much will it affect the EMI shielding.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

delrosa81 said:


> I supply transparent PET sheets that are conductive and very good for EMI shielding with resistance at < 5ohms/sq inch. It can be laminated onto clear acrylics with light transmission of 80%+++


 
  
 How much will it cost me to get those sheets? All I need is a sheet of 6 by 6 centimeters in size.


----------



## delrosa81

hal rockwell said:


> How much will it cost me to get those sheets? All I need is a sheet of 6 by 6 centimeters in size.




We usually sell in master rolls of 600mm x 200Metres. But let me check whether I have FOC samples for you cos it is really small.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Took the E12DIY out of its chassis, turned it on and plugged some iems in. Turned the volume way up and attached it to my cell phone. Made a couple of calls while the iems are in my ears and heard no static or anything. Does it mean that even without the chassis, the E12DIY is EMI proof?


----------



## ClieOS

EMI also depends strongly on the opamp and buffer combination. You might get great EMI result on one combo and bad EMI result on another. i.e. one of the reason FiiO changed the original opamp oi the E12 after the first batch is actually to address EMI issue.


----------



## Deterministic NL

Think I may have hit an awesome Opamp / Buffer combination.  Running a couple OPA627 soldered to one of the blank single to dual adapters in the E12DIY kit. 
  
 I personally think the OPA627 with the HA-5002's is the best thing I've heard to date and OPA627 blows the MUSES chips away by a considerable margin to these ears.  Wow.
  
 Do try the OPA627.
  
 John


----------



## ClieOS

Actually I currently have the OPA627 + HA-5002 in my E12DIY too. Though I won't go as far as saying it blows MUSES away, I do agree it is one of the really good combo.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Now my E12DIY is truly DIY. Took me a couple of hours to make but I'm really pleased with the results and I think that have enough space to fit inside any opamp+buffer combo I please.


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> Well, if you still can't find a pair by mid July, I'll probably reopen my HA-5002 build thread then.




I'm can promise you now that i won't be able to find a soldered pair at all, at least not with your help... If you do start that thread, be sure to mention it here 



hal rockwell said:


> Now my E12DIY is truly DIY. Took me a couple of hours to make but I'm really pleased with the results and I think that have enough space to fit inside any opamp+buffer combo I please.




Looks good!


----------



## K.T.

deterministic nl said:


> Think I may have hit an awesome Opamp / Buffer combination.  Running a couple OPA627 soldered to one of the blank single to dual adapters in the E12DIY kit.
> 
> I personally think the OPA627 with the HA-5002's is the best thing I've heard to date and OPA627 blows the MUSES chips away by a considerable margin to these ears.  Wow.
> 
> ...




OPA627 is a must try. Definitely in the same league as MUSES02, IMO, and betters it in some ways.

I'm very glad to have this as an option.


----------



## Loquah

k.t. said:


> OPA627 is a must try. Definitely in the same league as MUSES02, IMO, and betters it in some ways.
> 
> I'm very glad to have this as an option.


 
  
 What do you prefer about it to the MUSES02? The MUSES02 will cost me $136 shipped from Mouser so I'd much prefer the 627s if they suit my tastes!


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> What do you prefer about it to the MUSES02? The MUSES02 will cost me $136 shipped from Mouser so I'd much prefer the 627s if they suit my tastes!




How did you come to that number? crap that's way expensive.


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> How did you come to that number? crap that's way expensive.


 
  
 Mouser's Australian site charges $100 for the chips themselves and then shipping is $36 or something equally as exorbitant. Unless I'm remembering inaccurately.. I'll go check again.
  
 Edit: $139.68 for a single MUSES02 - it seems I have to spend $200 before I can get free shipping


----------



## MistahBungle

loquah said:


> Mouser's Australian site charges $100 for the chips themselves and then shipping is $36 or something equally as exorbitant. Unless I'm remembering inaccurately.. I'll go check again.




No need, you're spot on. That's why I took one look & went 'Nup'. Not paying prices like that, amp sounds perfectly fine with supplied components, not interested in paying that kind of money for minor incremental (and even that's a maybe) changes to sound.


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> What do you prefer about it to the MUSES02? The MUSES02 will cost me $136 shipped from Mouser so I'd much prefer the 627s if they suit my tastes!


 
 Digikey is cheaper at around $75.  Here in Japan they are about $35 but by the time you pay shipping and the Tenso service it is about the same cost.   Probably just as easy to get from Digikey.


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> Mouser's Australian site charges $100 for the chips themselves and then shipping is $36 or something equally as exorbitant. Unless I'm remembering inaccurately.. I'll go check again.
> 
> Edit: $139.68 for a single MUSES02 - it seems I have to spend $200 before I can get free shipping




Australia has absolutely disgusting import prices. I have a friend living there and it's nuts. I'm sorry for you man.



mistahbungle said:


> No need, you're spot on. That's why I took one look & went 'Nup'. Not paying prices like that, amp sounds perfectly fine with supplied components, not interested in paying that kind of money for minor incremental (and even that's a maybe) changes to sound.




Agreed. The muse 02 is worth some money, but not $135 money.


----------



## Loquah

A pair of OPA627AUs will set me back about $70 so I can swallow that if it's a worthy upgrade over LME49990 or OPA1611


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> A pair of OPA627AUs will set me back about $70 so I can swallow that if it's a worthy upgrade over LME49990 or OPA1611


 
 Brown Dog has this for about $60 *but it won't fit *in the E12DIY.  You need to solder your own on the dual mount blank adapters in the kit.
  
 http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx


----------



## Loquah

deterministic nl said:


> Brown Dog has this for about $60 *but it won't fit *in the E12DIY.  You need to solder your own on the dual mount blank adapters in the kit.
> 
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/single-to-dualop-ampadapterpn020302.aspx


 
  
 Yes, I know. I have one more dual adapter in the Fiio kit I think.


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> Yes, I know. I have one more dual adapter in the Fiio kit I think.


 
 Wonder if you can buy more of them from Fiio.  I fouled one of mine up and lifted a trace on it trying to reposition one of the chips.   I only have one left as well.  Sure would like to buy a couple more blanks or trade.


----------



## Loquah

deterministic nl said:


> Wonder if you can buy more of them from Fiio.  I fouled one of mine up and lifted a trace on it trying to reposition one of the chips.   I only have one left as well.  Sure would like to buy a couple more blanks or trade.


 
  
 +1 to getting more somehow!


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> +1 to getting more somehow!


 
 I just emailed their support department and asked.  If I get a positive response I'll post back here.


----------



## Loquah

Cool. Thanks!


----------



## ClieOS

Yes, you can buy the blank adapter from them. I don't know the price though.


----------



## K.T.

loquah said:


> What do you prefer about it to the MUSES02? The MUSES02 will cost me $136 shipped from Mouser so I'd much prefer the 627s if they suit my tastes!




Both are very good, but they offer different things.

I find MUSES02 is more intimate and warm. Very musical and lush. Seduces you with the sound. But can seem slightly closed in. Bass impact and tightness could be better. I don't feel bass lines are as propulsive as they could be. More of a focus on tones and textures rather than rhythm and pace. But a lovely sound. Sometimes I feel the weakness in bass and rhythm hinders my enjoyment of the music on certain tracks. But overall one of the best chips I've tried.

OPA627, on the other hand takes a step back, perspective-wise. OPA 627 sounds more open and spacious. It just as musically engaging but not as lush. It is still, however, on the slightly warm side. Bass is there with good pace and quantity. Really drives the music rhythmically. And bass dynamics are very good. I was sometimes surprised when a sudden percussion hit came up. Balance of sound is good, and music has a certain "rightness" to it. Perhaps a better all arounder than the MUSES02.

At least that's how it sounds to me. 

IMO, they are on par with each other In terms of SQ. When I swapped from OPA627 to MUSES02 for the first time, I was expecting to be totally blown away. I wasn't. I found that it was more of a sidegrade instead of an upgrade or downgrade. I feel that they are on the same tier with each other as far as musical perfomance.

I know MUSES can be very expensive to acquire for a lot of folks. My advice is if you want to try a chip on the same level of the MUSES but don't want to shell out the big bucks right away, try the OPA627. It's a great chip in its own right and should be on top of your upgrade list.


----------



## Chefano

k.t. said:


> Both are very good, but they offer different things.
> 
> I find MUSES02 is more intimate and warm. Very musical and lush. Seduces you with the sound. But can seem slightly closed in. Bass impact and tightness could be better. I don't feel bass lines are as propulsive as they could be. More of a focus on tones and textures rather than rhythm and pace. But a lovely sound. Sometimes I feel the weakness in bass and rhythm hinders my enjoyment of the music on certain tracks. But overall one of the best chips I've tried.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have the same feeling as well. 
  
 Even comparing both with MUSES01 I would say its a sidegrade. I don't know how it would sound on thousand dollar system, but I can clearly say on the E12DIY they sound pretty much the same.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Did anyone try the OPA637?
It's supposed to be even better.


----------



## Fiiorless

hal rockwell said:


> Did anyone try the OPA637?
> It's supposed to be even better.


 
 Better = Faster? Unlike an OPA 627 the OPA637 is not internally compensated for unity gain and is likely to be a lot less stable in the E12DIY. The sort of oscillation that results can sometimes only be seen with a fast oscilloscope and is not good, at best things will get warm and use a lot of power. Not every opamp is interchangeable in every circuit and different headphones can work better with different opamps, especially comparing low impedance iem's and high impedance headphones. Better is often not _always_ better but better with this music or that source device and not to forget different people like different things.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

fiiorless said:


> Better = Faster? Unlike an OPA 627 the OPA637 is not internally compensated for unity gain and is likely to be a lot less stable in the E12DIY. The sort of oscillation that results can sometimes only be seen with a fast oscilloscope and is not good, at best things will get warm and use a lot of power. Not every opamp is interchangeable in every circuit and different headphones can work better with different opamps, especially comparing low impedance iem's and high impedance headphones. Better is often not _always_ better but better with this music or that source device and not to forget different people like different things.


 
  






 This what happens when I fail to read the data sheet all the way through.
  


clieos said:


> These are what I have for E12DIY so far, including the stock:
> 
> OPAMP :
> LME49860, AD8599, ADA4627-1, LME49990, OPA1642, AD825, LT1028, AD744, OPA627, LT1678, LT1469, LT1358, OPA2111, NE5532, LM4562, LME49720, NJM5532, NJM2114, NJM4580, NJM4558, NJM4556, OP270, OP275, OPA2134, OPA2227, OPA2604, AD8397, OPA2209, OPA2107, AD8066, MAX9632, MUSES8820, MUSES8920.
> ...


 
  
 Did you manage to go through all this list?
 If so, what can you recommend from it? (I deleted the ones that I have or going to get soon).
  


delrosa81 said:


> We usually sell in master rolls of 600mm x 200Metres. But let me check whether I have FOC samples for you cos it is really small.


 
  
 Thanks. Any progress on the subject?


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> Did you manage to go through all this list?
> If so, what can you recommend from it? (I deleted the ones that I have or going to get soon).


 
  
 Briefly, yes.
  
 Those that really impressed me in the list are: AD8599, OPA627, NJM5532, AD8397 and the MUSES (which are surprisingly good and similar to 01 and 02). MAX9632 is quite interesting as well. It works quite well on some buffer but not all of them. Also, it is the only Maxim opamp I can find that will work in E12DIY, given Maxim isn't that interested in opamp but more in chip amp.


----------



## delrosa81

hal rockwell said:


> Thanks. Any progress on the subject?


 
  
 I can cut some samples and mail it to you. Could you send me your mailing address so I can send it from Singapore?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

delrosa81 said:


> I can cut some samples and mail it to you. Could you send me your mailing address so I can send it from Singapore?




I sent you a PM with my address. 

Thank you very much for your help.


----------



## delrosa81

hal rockwell said:


> I sent you a PM with my address.
> 
> Thank you very much for your help.


 

 Sure, will post it out by this week! Most welcome, glad to help a fellow Headfi member out


----------



## delrosa81

Finally the E12DIY Gold is in my hands! Right now it is charging and I am back at work. Cant wait to get home tonight and try it out!
  

  
 BTW my number is 00XX. Me likey double digits lol.


----------



## delrosa81

Did some testing last night on my new Fiio E12DIY, I left everything in default and have yet to start swapping out the internals, so far so good!
  
 A photo of my E12DIY. It is simply beautiful to my ears and eyes 

  
 My rig (Current Setup)


----------



## K.T.

delrosa81 said:


> Did some testing last night on my new Fiio E12DIY, I left everything in default and have yet to start swapping out the internals, so far so good!
> 
> A photo of my E12DIY. It is simply beautiful to my ears and eyes
> 
> ...




Cool. What's in your rig? Looks pretty serious. Probably sounds great.

And what is that connector cord you're using? I'm sure it sounds better than the stock connector FiiO supplies. Is it worth the extra cost?


----------



## ClieOS

Sony ZX1 + PHA-2 + E12DIY.


----------



## delrosa81

k.t. said:


> Cool. What's in your rig? Looks pretty serious. Probably sounds great.
> 
> And what is that connector cord you're using? I'm sure it sounds better than the stock connector FiiO supplies. Is it worth the extra cost?


 
 ClieOS answered your question lol. DAP: Sony ZX-1, DAC: Sony PHA-2, AMP: Fiio E12DIY. Im using the Cypher Labs connector cord, for me it is more for the aesthetics rather than for sound enhancement. Plugging it in and burnt probably 50 hours or so, I did not really notice any significant difference but swapping back to the OEM black copper cord, I noticed the Cypher Labs connector seems to brighten the sound and just that little bit more clarity as compared to the OEM black copper cord.
  
 As for sound, in my opinion it sounds rather good for the category and price. 
  


clieos said:


> Sony ZX1 + PHA-2 + E12DIY.


 
 Spot on!


----------



## DMax99

Love the look of the gold colour!


----------



## K.T.

dmax99 said:


> Love the look of the gold colour!


 
  
 Get one of each!


----------



## jacky599r

How different is the sound compared to a regular FiiO E12?


----------



## ClieOS

jacky599r said:


> How different is the sound compared to a regular FiiO E12?


 
  
 I'll say E12 is near top-tier that can compete with just about any portable amp around the $250 mark while E12DIY is the top-tier amp that can compete with portable amp of any price range.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> Also I have received the Silmic II, along with Nichicon MUSES ES and BlackGate NX Hi-Q from previous LOD project. Now I am waiting for some Wima and Vishay PP film caps to come, as well as AVX OxiCap. Also ordered some pin socket, which I hope to solder in for the caps for future cap rolling. After that I think I am pretty much done with all the mod.


 
  
 What conclusion did you reach while swapping caps?
 Did you play only with brands or with values too?


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> What conclusion did you reach while swapping caps?
> Did you play only with brands or with values too?


 
  
 Just some of the obvious: film caps tends to sound sharper, more detailed but also edgier with a flatter image. Electrolytic are more euphonic and musical, with a good layer in image but tends to have lesser defined detail. OxiCap tends to be right between the two, but closer to film caps. It is also worth noting that film caps tend to sound alike, where electrolytic have more variance between them. For example, the difference between Nichicon muse, Silmic II and BlackGate NX Hi-Q is quite noticeable.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> Just some of the obvious: film caps tends to sound sharper, more detailed but also edgier with a flatter image. Electrolytic are more euphonic and musical, with a good layer in image but tends to have lesser defined detail. OxiCap tends to be right between the two, but closer to film caps. It is also worth noting that film caps tend to sound alike, where electrolytic have more variance between them. For example, the difference between Nichicon muse, Silmic II and BlackGate NX Hi-Q is quite noticeable.


 
  
 Yes. I noticed that when I switched from WIMA to Elna Tonerex that came in the little metal box with the E12DIY the things got warmer and with more bass and less detail.
  
 Did you change to a different value of the caps?
 In your opinion, which caps you liked best to go with MUSES01 and HA-5002 combo?


----------



## delrosa81

dmax99 said:


> Love the look of the gold colour!


 
 Yeah me too!
  


k.t. said:


> Get one of each!


 
 Short of poisoning DMax99, I am also very tempted to get the Silver E12DIY lol!
  


jacky599r said:


> How different is the sound compared to a regular FiiO E12?


 
 I would say it is just that little bit brighter with good bass as compared to the standard E12 with much reduced hiss. The hiss part is the greatest improvement IMO.
  


clieos said:


> I'll say E12 is near top-tier that can compete with just about any portable amp around the $250 mark while E12DIY is the top-tier amp that can compete with portable amp of any price range.


 
 Yes I agree on that but I wouldnt say it performs exactly as per the really high end amps but it is close though. I am very surprised and happy with the E12DIY's performance and it is really value for money considering the performance. One more thing about both the standard E12 and the E12DIY is the build quality, it is well made and feels very sturdy as compared to some amps of a higher price range which is impressive.


----------



## Loquah

delrosa81 said:


> Yes I agree on that but I wouldnt say it performs exactly as per the really high end amps but it is close though. I am very surprised and happy with the E12DIY's performance and it is really value for money considering the performance. One more thing about both the standard E12 and the E12DIY is the build quality, it is well made and feels very sturdy as compared to some amps of a higher price range which is impressive.


 
  
 Which amps would you say out-perform the DIY?


----------



## delrosa81

loquah said:


> Which amps would you say out-perform the DIY?


 

 I do not have that much experience with that many equipment but I think the V Moda Verza and the Pico DAC USB AMP is just that bit better than the DIY, I do not know how to describe but just sound more musical in that sense but I have to emphasize though, my E12 DIY is fully in its original state, have yet to swap out any chips and just burnt in say maybe 10 hours or less. Build quality wise, both the V Moda and the Pico are very well made too. They have been used awhile by my friends so I guess fully burnt in or so. I really like the form factor of the shadow red of the V Moda though 
  
 I would really like to try out the Centrance HiFi M8 and Ray Samuels SR-71 as they seem to be rated highly in forums. I am also considering to get the Cypher Labs CLAP too as it seems pretty well rated for now


----------



## Loquah

delrosa81 said:


> I do not have that much experience with that many equipment but I think the V Moda Verza and the Pico DAC USB AMP is just that bit better than the DIY, I do not know how to describe but just sound more musical in that sense but I have to emphasize though, my E12 DIY is fully in its original state, have yet to swap out any chips and just burnt in say maybe 10 hours or less. Build quality wise, both the V Moda and the Pico are very well made too. They have been used awhile by my friends so I guess fully burnt in or so. I really like the form factor of the shadow red of the V Moda though
> 
> I would really like to try out the Centrance HiFi M8 and Ray Samuels SR-71 as they seem to be rated highly in forums. I am also considering to get the Cypher Labs CLAP too as it seems pretty well rated for now


 
  
 I haven't heard those either, but would definitely suggest that you try some different chip combinations before deciding that the DIY is not on par as the stock configuration is not it's peak configuration IMO. To me, the stock setup reaches about 60-70% of the amp's full potential based on what I hear with the OPA1611 / LME49600 or LME49990 / HA-5002 combos and that's before we even get to OPA627 / MUSES02 configurations


----------



## delrosa81

loquah said:


> I haven't heard those either, but would definitely suggest that you try some different chip combinations before deciding that the DIY is not on par as the stock configuration is not it's peak configuration IMO. To me, the stock setup reaches about 60-70% of the amp's full potential based on what I hear with the OPA1611 / LME49600 or LME49990 / HA-5002 combos and that's before we even get to OPA627 / MUSES02 configurations


 

 Yeah I am indeed considering to do some swapping, I read that Muses01 and Muses02 are amazing op amps and is now trying to find out where to get authentic ones. Im not very technically inclined so I would like to ask, if we match chips that are so good, will the sound be able to be as good as top tier portable amps? Do you think this is possible?


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> Yes. I noticed that when I switched from WIMA to Elna Tonerex that came in the little metal box with the E12DIY the things got warmer and with more bass and less detail.
> 
> Did you change to a different value of the caps?
> In your opinion, which caps you liked best to go with MUSES01 and HA-5002 combo?


 
  
 Anything above 6.3V is fine to use (which actually is about every caps). I tried some 25V caps but it shouldn't really make that much of a difference.
  
 I was using Silmic II most of the time, but now I switch to OxiCaps.
  


delrosa81 said:


> ... Yes I agree on that but I wouldnt say it performs exactly as per the really high end amps but it is close though. I am very surprised and happy with the E12DIY's performance and it is really value for money considering the performance. One more thing about both the standard E12 and the E12DIY is the build quality, it is well made and feels very sturdy as compared to some amps of a higher price range which is impressive.


 
  
 IMO, you will get different flavor of tone from different TOTL portable amps, but not necessarily different performance.


----------



## K.T.

The E12DIY is surely a great amp, and a fantastic value. 

But I have to think that the greatest value in a portable amp is the JDS Labs CMOYBB. Yes, it's more like a tinkerer's delight/ novelty item with its cute Altoids tin, but it has a lot of fun personality and it sounds great. A real bargain for what they are selling it for.

In fact, I've been loving it so much, it's sharing top spot with the E12DIY as my two favorite portable amps. 

The E12DIY is more solid and serious sounding and can drive a wider range of cans, with its buffers and all.

But the CMOYBB is also very musical, very enjoyable, and has a very fun sound. 

I've rolled in OPA627 and MUSES01, as well as the AD8620 and the included OPA2227, and the amp sounds great with each (MUSES01 and OPA627 especially good). Paired with a set of on-ear Harman Kardon CLs, the CMOYBB with MUSES01 has taken over bedside duties from my also awesome Schiit Vali.

But back to the E12DIY. I haven't had a chance to try other high end portable amps, but the E12DIY just makes music sound great. The ability to roll op amps and buffers is HUGE, and makes the amp truly unique.

I'm very glad to have it!


----------



## delrosa81

clieos said:


> IMO, you will get different flavor of tone from different TOTL portable amps, but not necessarily different performance.


 
 Thanks for the enlightening information, come to think of it, what you said makes perfect sense and I guess everyone has their own preference of certain brands due to the flavor of the sound is to their liking. Performance wise should be up there just the tuning would make the flavor difference. 
  


k.t. said:


> The E12DIY is surely a great amp, and a fantastic value.
> 
> But I have to think that the greatest value in a portable amp is the JDS Labs CMOYBB. Yes, it's more like a tinkerer's delight/ novelty item with its cute Altoids tin, but it has a lot of fun personality and it sounds great.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I was surfing on the JDS labs CMOYBB and it looks really interesting lol. It is v interesting to note that both the E12DIY and the CMOYBB is sharing top spots. I am very glad to have the E12DIY too!


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> The E12DIY is surely a great amp, and a fantastic value.
> 
> But I have to think that the greatest value in a portable amp is the JDS Labs CMOYBB. Yes, it's more like a tinkerer's delight/ novelty item with its cute Altoids tin, but it has a lot of fun personality and it sounds great.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep, cmoyBB is an solid little amp. But it has its limitation, most noticeably on the power section. It probably won't be a problem and not something that can be easily tell with non-demanding load. For example, OPA627 will be running on its minimum required voltage in cmoyBB even with a fresh 9V, and MUSES01 will be on minimum with a pair of 9V (18V). Since the opamp is driving the load directly, current output and output impedance will vary by quite a lot depends on the opamp used. But if none of that is a problem, cmoyBB is definitely among the best cmoy implementation out there.
  
 On side note - as I have slowly learned to read the topology of the amp by looking at the PCB, you will be surprised at just how many 'branded' and expensive portable amps are not more than a cmoy with a slightly better power section.


----------



## delrosa81

clieos said:


> Yep, cmoyBB is an solid little amp. But it has its limitation, most noticeably on the power section. It probably won't be a problem and not something that can be easily tell with non-demanding load. For example, OPA627 will be running on its minimum required voltage in cmoyBB even with a fresh 9V, and MUSES01 will be on minimum with a pair of 9V (18V). Since the opamp is driving the load directly, current output and output impedance will vary by quite a lot depends on the opamp used. But if none of that is a problem, cmoyBB is definitely among the best cmoy implementation out there.
> 
> On side note - as I have slowly learned to read the topology of the amp by looking at the PCB, you will be surprised at just how many 'branded' and expensive portable amps are not more than a cmoy with a slightly better power section.


 

 I find the candy box used as it casing is most interesting and the ability for the user to tweak and change components is the next most interesting to customise the sound from the amp.
  
 Oh, thats really interesting to know! I guess the basics of an amp topology is pretty much standard except for some tweaking here and there coupled with better quality components to differentiate itself from other brands.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> Anything above 6.3V is fine to use (which actually is about every caps). I tried some 25V caps but it shouldn't really make that much of a difference.
> 
> I was using Silmic II most of the time, but now I switch to OxiCaps.




Does the capacitance value makes a difference too ar just the voltage?


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> Does the capacitance value makes a difference too ar just the voltage?


 
  
 Yes, capacitance does make a difference. First, it can't be too small. Because the caps is there to remove any DC input just before the opamp, they form a high pass filter together. When the capacitance is too small, you will start to lose most of the sub-bass. The stock Wima is 2.2uF, which is a fairly safe number to use. I'll suggest you should at least match it, if not higher. Too high a capacitance also won't help, so keep it reasonable, probably around 10uF~22uF, which will give you some good selection of caps that can still fit inside E12DIY without problem.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> Yes, capacitance does make a difference. First, it can't be too small. Because the caps is there to remove any DC input just before the opamp, they form a high pass filter together. When the capacitance is too small, you will start to lose most of the sub-bass. The stock Wima is 2.2uF, which is a fairly safe number to use. I'll suggest you should at least match it, if not higher. Too high a capacitance also won't help, so keep it reasonable, probably around 10uF~22uF, which will give you some good selection of caps that can still fit inside E12DIY without problem.




So I guess it would be OK to order electrolytic caps that match the values of the Elna Tonerex that came with the E12DIY as an alternative? 

If I remember correctly, they are 10uF/25v.


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> So I guess it would be OK to order electrolytic caps that match the values of the Elna Tonerex that came with the E12DIY as an alternative?
> 
> If I remember correctly, they are 10uF/25v.


 
  
 Sure, just be sure they have the right size.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> Sure, just be sure they have the right size.




Is it safe to purchase quality caps on eBay?


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> Is it safe to purchase quality caps on eBay?


 
  
 If it is the famous one (muse, silmic II, etc), no, especially if they are from the Far East.


----------



## Deterministic NL

delrosa81 said:


> Yeah I am indeed considering to do some swapping, I read that Muses01 and Muses02 are amazing op amps and is now trying to find out where to get authentic ones. Im not very technically inclined so I would like to ask, if we match chips that are so good, will the sound be able to be as good as top tier portable amps? Do you think this is possible?


 
 I live in Japan at MCAS Iwakuni.  I can get Muses01 and Muses02 for 3500yen and 3400 yen, respectively plus 500 yen shipping to my home from Akizukidenshi.  That and $5.80 puts them in a Priority Mail box and nets exactly zero profit for me (provided you live in the US).  Done it for a few folks here.  Akizukidenshi is an authorized dealer for Japan Radio Corporation (JRC).


----------



## delrosa81

I tried swapping out the chips, in the end I still prefer the chip that it came in default in. My chips are in quite bad condition that I cannot really see the wordings on the chips so it was abit of a blind listening test lol.


----------



## delrosa81

deterministic nl said:


> I live in Japan at MCAS Iwakuni.  I can get Muses01 and Muses02 for 3500yen and 3400 yen, respectively plus 500 yen shipping to my home from Akizukidenshi.  That and $5.80 puts them in a Priority Mail box and nets exactly zero profit for me (provided you live in the US).  Done it for a few folks here.  Akizukidenshi is an authorized dealer for Japan Radio Corporation (JRC).


 

 Thanks for the help! I am still undecided whether to swap the chips as Im not very good at soldering and the filing of the housing which I am really reluctant to do  Will keep your suggestion in mind


----------



## nmatheis

delrosa81 said:


> I tried swapping out the chips, in the end I still prefer the chip that it came in default in. My chips are in quite bad condition that I cannot really see the wordings on the chips so it was abit of a blind listening test lol.




I think they're almost all like that. I was squinting at them while holding in direct sunlight trying to read the damn things. I finally got out my camera, slapped on a macro lens, took some pics, and made some labels stick on then while in storage so I know what they are when going to swap them out.


----------



## Deterministic NL

delrosa81 said:


> Thanks for the help! I am still undecided whether to swap the chips as Im not very good at soldering and the filing of the housing which I am really reluctant to do  Will keep your suggestion in mind


 
 No sweat.  I live here until Feb of next year.  Tell you the truth I like both MUSES chips a lot but right now I'm preferring OPA627 with HA-5002.  OPA 627 can be had from Digikey easily although you'll have to solder them up on the side by side single to dual adapters.  MUSES of course is a drop in solution.


----------



## delrosa81

nmatheis said:


> I think they're almost all like that. I was squinting at them while holding in direct sunlight trying to read the damn things. I finally got out my camera, slapped on a macro lens, took some pics, and made some labels stick on then while in storage so I know what they are when going to swap them out.


 
 Oh I thought mine was a bad batch of handiwork, so now I know its all like that. I put in 2 chips i tink shld shld be wrong or wrong orientation and the blue power lamp was flashing so I quickly switched the amp off and pulled out the chips quickly.
  


deterministic nl said:


> No sweat.  I live here until Feb of next year.  Tell you the truth I like both MUSES chips a lot but right now I'm preferring OPA627 with HA-5002.  OPA 627 can be had from Digikey easily although you'll have to solder them up on the side by side single to dual adapters.  MUSES of course is a drop in solution.


 
 Really appreciate the gesture  BTW I saw in another thread someone dropped in the MUSES02 without the need to file the housing, is this possible?


----------



## nmatheis

delrosa81 said:


> Oh I thought mine was a bad batch of handiwork, so now I know its all like that. I put in 2 chips i tink shld shld be wrong or wrong orientation and the blue power lamp was flashing so I quickly switched the amp off and pulled out the chips quickly.




I think they expect us to have a microscope handy!


----------



## delrosa81

nmatheis said:


> I think they expect us to have a microscope handy!


 

 haa haa, yeah I guess so! And I still pride myself on good eyesight! lol!


----------



## Deterministic NL

delrosa81 said:


> Oh I thought mine was a bad batch of handiwork, so now I know its all like that. I put in 2 chips i tink shld shld be wrong or wrong orientation and the blue power lamp was flashing so I quickly switched the amp off and pulled out the chips quickly.
> 
> Really appreciate the gesture  BTW I saw in another thread someone dropped in the MUSES02 without the need to file the housing, is this possible?


 
 I think some people have to file and some don't and why that is I have no clue.  I personally was able to get my case closed with MUSES1 and 2 and with OPA 627 on the adapters however I bet you they all barely touch the case.  It just barely clears it.


----------



## Loquah

I've found the light of an LED flashlight is very helpful in reading the labels. Under normal light (even sunlight) I find them all but illegible. Somehow, a little LED flashlight's cold white light seems to be perfect for reading the stamped labels on the op amps
  
 On other matters, after deciding I liked the LME49990 / HA-5002 combo recently, I was decidedly underwhelmed this morning on my way to work (I haven't listened to the amp for a while). The soundstage seems less expansive than I would like. From everyone's experience, do you think I should change the HA-5002 to LME49600 or change the LME49990 to OPA1611 to open up the sound more?
  
 I might buy some OPA627s soon to throw into the mix as well, but for now, those are my best choices.


----------



## ClieOS

delrosa81 said:


> Oh I thought mine was a bad batch of handiwork, so now I know its all like that. I put in 2 chips i tink shld shld be wrong or wrong orientation and the blue power lamp was flashing so I quickly switched the amp off and pulled out the chips quickly.


 
  
 There is a good chance the chips are burnt even if they are only turned on for just 1 seconds. You need to plug them back in the right orientation and check for damage. Fingers crossed.


----------



## delrosa81

deterministic nl said:


> I think some people have to file and some don't and why that is I have no clue.  I personally was able to get my case closed with MUSES1 and 2 and with OPA 627 on the adapters however I bet you they all barely touch the case.  It just barely clears it.


 
 Yes exactly and I am still undecided whether to go for the MUSES or not hmmmmmm. I really do hope if I do get mine, there is not need to file the housing. BTW which did you prefer? I prefer clarity with good bass. MUSES01 or MUSES02 do you reckon?
  


loquah said:


> I've found the light of an LED flashlight is very helpful in reading the labels. Under normal light (even sunlight) I find them all but illegible. Somehow, a little LED flashlight's cold white light seems to be perfect for reading the stamped labels on the op amps
> 
> On other matters, after deciding I liked the LME49990 / HA-5002 combo recently, I was decidedly underwhelmed this morning on my way to work (I haven't listened to the amp for a while). The soundstage seems less expansive than I would like. From everyone's experience, do you think I should change the HA-5002 to LME49600 or change the LME49990 to OPA1611 to open up the sound more?
> 
> I might buy some OPA627s soon to throw into the mix as well, but for now, those are my best choices.


 
 Oh, I shall go dig out my LED flashlight to look at the chips again, its a pain to try and see the wordings lol.
  


clieos said:


> There is a good chance the chips are burnt even if they are only turned on for just 1 seconds. You need to plug them back in the right orientation and check for damage. Fingers crossed.


 
 Oh no...... will have to test them out when Im home tonight. Hopefully the chips are still alright.......


----------



## Loquah

Swapped the HA5002s out for an all LME setup today. LME49990 and LME49600 are now rocking my Miracles. The LME49990 is smoother than the OPA1611 and not quite as "etched" but still lets the LME49600 create its great sense if space.

I think I'm officially not an HA5002 fan no matter how much I try to love them. They're really smooth, but just not to my personal tastes in staging and presentation.


----------



## ClieOS

Here to inform you guys that my HA-5002 build is reopened for batch 3, which will be the last batch I'll build. Detail here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/722671/ha-5002-browndog-adapter-for-fiio-e12diy
  
 Also note that, as suggested by others in the HA-5002 build thread that we should arrange for a similar non-profit build for OPA627, I have been in contact with FiiO to seek out the possibility of acquiring more blank dual adapter and they have generously agreed to supply us with all the adapter free-of-charge, so the project is a go for now. To make it more interesting, you are not limited to OPA627 and can request for any single channel SOIC opamp of your liking (*provided I can get them from local supplier, which are RS Online Malaysia, Element14 Malaysia or Mouser Malaysia, and they will work in E12DIY). Different from the HA-5002 build is that, you will have to pay in full before I order any part as they can get very expensive and I don't want to overdraw my credit card. As this is going to be a non-profit build, the price will be determined by the cost of parts, shipping and any Paypal fee that occurs. I will be providing my labor for free again. To make it fair to everyone, It will be limited to 2 adapters (with your choices of two pairs of opamp) per person. More detail when this actually happens, which will be after I finish up my HA-5002 batch 3 build, roughly by the end of this month or early next.
  
 Cheer.


----------



## Loquah

That's very generous of you and Fiio!!
  
 I'll probably make my own because I'm in Australia so shipping gets expensive quickly, but you've inspired me... Other than LME49990 which I have and OPA627 which I will be trying, what other single channel would you recommend for neutrality and spaciousness? (or have I already got the best options above and in the stock kit?)


----------



## ClieOS

I know NJM5532 is one of the most transparent and neutral sounding opamp for E12DIY. But for single channel opamp, I can't say any that I have tried will fall into that category.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> I know NJM5532 is one of the most transparent and neutral sounding opamp for E12DIY. But for single channel opamp, I can't say any that I have tried will fall into that category.


 
  
 I have an NJM5532 and find it quite cold and analytical - perhaps my sense of neutral is skewed. To my ears the OPA627 (I've tried the BP DIP-8 version using an adapter with the DIY case open) is only slightly warm of neutral so I guess I'm looking to see if there's anything slightly more neutral than OPA627 without going too far into analytical territory.


----------



## ClieOS

In that case, you might want to try LME49720 (or the single version, LME49710). It is kind of like a slightly warmer NJM5532, with better bass kick and texture.


----------



## Loquah

Perfect! Thanks ClieOS. The LMEs and OPA627 SOIC versions will hopefully be my last round of swapping and trialling to finally find my "perfect" combo...


----------



## ClieOS

BTW, I should have enough blank dual adapters from FiiO to send a few out for those of you who want to do the soldering yourself. For now it will be limited to 2 adapters per person, you just have to pay for the shipping and packaging, etc. Again, more detail by the end of the month.


----------



## gikigill

Hi ClieOS, could I also participate in the pre soldered opamps. Looking forward to the OPA627 for the E12DIY.


----------



## ClieOS

Yes, you can, but let leave the discussion to the upcoming opamp build thread.


----------



## certifiedny

jamesfiio said:


> 1, Yes, the gain may change to -3dB and +6dB.
> 
> 2, The power supply may change to +/- 7.4V . but not decided yet cause the high power supply can provide better SQ.
> 
> 3, The bass and crossfeed will be removed.


James please keep bass boost, 25hz to 40hz peak and make it adjustable. +3db and +6db, Also low ohm .05 to pair well with anything. I'd be all over that


----------



## ClieOS

certifiedny said:


> James please keep bass boost, 25hz to 40hz peak and make it adjustable. +3db and +6db, Also low ohm .05 to pair well with anything. I'd be all over that


 
  
 E12IEM topology is more like a scaled down (on voltage and gain) E12DIY than a scaled down E12, so the bass boost is definitely not going to be there.


----------



## Loquah

Spent some time this afternoon rolling op amps and taking notes and, ClieOS, I must thank you again for your continued support of the NJM5532 - it really is outstanding and may have become my favourite op amp after all. I previously thought it was too bright / analytical, but I'm fine with it today and the bass, while not enhanced in any way, just extends forever!
  
 Looks like the LME49710 might be perfect for me... time for a visit to RS-Online


----------



## Deterministic NL

loquah said:


> Spent some time this afternoon rolling op amps and taking notes and, ClieOS, I must thank you again for your continued support of the NJM5532 - it really is outstanding and may have become my favourite op amp after all. I previously thought it was too bright / analytical, but I'm fine with it today and the bass, while not enhanced in any way, just extends forever!
> 
> Looks like the LME49710 might be perfect for me... time for a visit to RS-Online


 
 I just looked up both those opamps at Digikey.  Price is certainly right for both of them.


----------



## Loquah

deterministic nl said:


> I just looked up both those opamps at Digikey.  Price is certainly right for both of them.


 
  
 They're both really cheap.
  
 Only issue is they come in sets of 5!! Anyone in Australia want a pair of LME49710s or a NJM5532 (or both?)


----------



## gikigill

loquah said:


> They're both really cheap.
> 
> Only issue is they come in sets of 5!! Anyone in Australia want a pair of LME49710s or a NJM5532 (or both?)


 

 I don't know much about those but if they are a straight fit in the E12DIY, I will buy them off you.


----------



## nmatheis

gikigill said:


> I don't know much about those but if they are a straight fit in the E12DIY, I will buy them off you.




Assuming they're DIP8, you'll probably have to file down your case for them to fit. I did. A few lucky ones can pop them in and get the case to close without flexing the board, though. Only way to know is to try...


----------



## ClieOS

LME49710 is single channel so it has to be in SOIC and mounted to a blank dual adapter.


----------



## nmatheis

clieos said:


> LME49710 is single channel so it has to be in SOIC and mounted to a blank dual adapter.




Aha, probably should've guessed that by the reference to a pair of LME49710...


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> In that case, you might want to try LME49720 (or the single version, LME49710). It is kind of like a slightly warmer NJM5532, with better bass kick and texture.




Thanks for bringing this to light.

I'm rocking the MUSES02 and OPA627 to much satisfaction right now, but this sounds right up my alley.

Interestingly, I was also able to fit the DIP8 into my amps without filing the case. So I'm going for the LME49720.

Maybe I will need to get a third amp. One for MUSES02, one for OPA627, and one for LME49720. 

Ha, ha, just kidding. Or not. We'll see.


----------



## Loquah

gikigill said:


> I don't know much about those but if they are a straight fit in the E12DIY, I will buy them off you.


 
  
 I think I already gave you an NJM5532, but I could be mistaken. If I have though, give it a try (even if you have to leave the case open a bit) and let us know what you think.
  
 You're welcome to a pair of LME49710s. If you give me your adapter next time we catch up I can solder them on for you and then return them.


----------



## gikigill

loquah said:


> I think I already gave you an NJM5532, but I could be mistaken. If I have though, give it a try (even if you have to leave the case open a bit) and let us know what you think.
> 
> You're welcome to a pair of LME49710s. If you give me your adapter next time we catch up I can solder them on for you and then return them.


 

 I have tried the  opamp you gave me and it sounds different for sure.
  
 The print on the opamp is too fine t read though I will try t see if I can get some info off it.
  
 In the middle of switching and swapping all the time, just cant make a decison


----------



## Loquah

gikigill said:


> I have tried the  opamp you gave me and it sounds different for sure.
> 
> The print on the opamp is too fine t read though I will try t see if I can get some info off it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's my problem too!!


----------



## Loquah

By the way, it should look something like this:
  

  
 If it's obvious, white printing then it's the NJM because other chips like OPAs, ADs, and LMs have more yellow coloured printing that's even harder to read


----------



## gikigill

Yup, that,s the one.
  
 I actually had a few leftover opamps from my PB2 so got a bit mixed up.


----------



## jacky599r

Can i still buy E12DIY? I have the standard but i find vocals abit blur and the sound stage abit compressed. I like the bass and mids though. Can the E12DIY fit the bill?


----------



## HK_sends

jacky599r said:


> Can i still buy E12DIY? I have the standard but i find vocals abit blur and the sound stage abit compressed. I like the bass and mids though. Can the E12DIY fit the bill?


 
 You can get them through a couple of different Amazon retailers.  I got mine from these folks:
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Headphone-Amplifier-Fidelity-Ultra-low-Distortion/dp/B00IR59OCU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1404612090&sr=8-2&keywords=E12+DIY
  
 They have the silver version too.  Hope this helps...
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## pdameno66

Just arrived!
During the past few days I received my Muses 01 and 02 together with opa 627 LME 4920 and Intersil ha5002.
Let the fun begin....


----------



## Loquah

pdameno66 said:


> Just arrived!
> During the past few days I received my Muses 01 and 02 together with opa 627 LME 4920 and Intersil ha5002.
> Let the fun begin....


 
  
 Nice! Please share your impressions.
  
 Speaking of MUSES, I decided to modify my case today to fit DIP8 chips and slipped and slightly wounded the exterior of the case 
  
 I used some chrome pinstriping tape to cover the nick in the aluminium... I think it looks ok, but have contacted Fiio to see if I can buy a replacement case.


----------



## pdameno66

Lucky me! 
I can put my dip8 chips into the e12 diy case without problems. 
Just switched from standard config. to muses02 and LME49600 
What a HUGE difference! Now the DIY is a totally different beast if compared to the standard E12. My Grado SR325iS sounds like they have never played before. I think I will stay for a while with this combo. Simply amazing. I strongly suggest this configuration with this model of headphone.


----------



## Loquah

pdameno66 said:


> Lucky me!
> I can put my dip8 chips into the e12 diy case without problems.
> Just switched from standard config. to muses02 and LME49600
> What a HUGE difference! Now the DIY is a totally different beast if compared to the standard E12. My Grado SR325iS sounds like they have never played before. I think I will stay for a while with this combo. Simply amazing. I strongly suggest this configuration with this model of headphone.


 
  
 From what I've heard from others about the MUSES02 and from what I know of the LME49600 from experience, the soundstage must seem massive with that combo!


----------



## pdameno66

You're absolutely right! 
Great soundstage and incredible detail. Still on the warm Side But with plenty of detail. I am really amazed with this combo with the Grado!!


----------



## K.T.

I ordered some LME49720s from Digikey yesterday.

I'm kind of curious because I saw that they were available in both DIP8 and SOIC packages. This is the dual channel LME49720.

If this were the case, wouldn't it be better to use a single dual channel LME49720 SOIC on a BrownDog adapter rather than two single channel LME49710s on the side-by-side boards? 

I guess you could do it either way, but it seems more elegant with a single chip.

This is, of course, to address the height issue in the E12DIY. If you know your amp can take the full height of a DIP8, that would be the most direct option.


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> I ordered some LME49720s from Digikey yesterday.
> 
> I'm kind of curious because I saw that they were available in both DIP8 and SOIC packages. This is the dual channel LME49720.
> 
> ...


 
  
 There is the theory that by placing the two channels further away, you'll get better channel separation. Of course it doesn't always work that way, but sometime it does in some circuits.


----------



## K.T.

pdameno66 said:


> Just arrived!
> During the past few days I received my Muses 01 and 02 together with opa 627 LME 4920 and Intersil ha5002.
> Let the fun begin....




Wow, you're all set! My prediction, that E11 will see very little play time, ultimately. After you dial in your E12DIY, you might even end up giving it to your brother (ask me how I know ).




pdameno66 said:


> Lucky me!
> I can put my dip8 chips into the e12 diy case without problems.
> Just switched from standard config. to muses02 and LME49600
> What a HUGE difference! Now the DIY is a totally different beast if compared to the standard E12. My Grado SR325iS sounds like they have never played before. I think I will stay for a while with this combo. Simply amazing. I strongly suggest this configuration with this model of headphone.




I am delighted by the options we have. I plopped in MUSES02 with BUF634 and initially thought it was way too warm. Now that it's burned in a bit, it's starting to sound really nice. 

For a yuk I tossed in the LME49600 and didn't like it at all, personally. For some reason it sounded really bright and strident with the MUSES02 for me. 

Funny, because I've heard the LME49600 sound good before (if slightly wirey), so it's great we can tailor the sound to what we like.


----------



## pdameno66

k.t. said:


> Wow, you're all set! My prediction, that E11 will see very little play time, ultimately. After you dial in your E12DIY, you might even end up giving it to your brother (ask me how I know
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I think it has something to do with headphone pairing.........(it might sound strange because the sr325Is are well known for their "bright sound signature" but for some strange reason I can't find a single bit of harshness with tis combo) what it is really amazing is the quantity of musical information together with a fantastic instrument separation and extremely detailed and wide soundstage. 
 I am at the very first beginning of testing with opas and buffers so my opinions are likely to change after some burn in or as soon as I have some terms of comparisons in my head. Later this afternoon I will do some "tough" test with Audeze LCD2.2 and Sennheiser HD800. Very curious to find out how this small amp will perform. Until now I am really impressed!
 The E11 is ready to be paired with my daugter's Iphone and the standard E12 is a gift for my brother's birthday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. The E09 will go with an Henry Audio USB DAC playing hi res files from my Imac.....


----------



## Loquah

ClieOS (or other similarly technically skilled people), could you help me with 2 questions regarding buffer selection:
  

Compared to the BUF634 and (to a lesser degree) the HA9P5002, the LME49600 seems to stretch the soundstage right out to the sides and at times even seems to create an image that is either left, right or centre with less in-between sounds. Is there something in the spec sheets that can predict this type of presentation difference or is it one of those unmeasurable factors?
Reading up on the HA9P5002 I have read that there can be risk of damage to the chips in the event of having no load applied or connecting / disconnecting the load during playback of any significant volume. This is apparently due to no current limiting being built into the 5002's design. Is this a concern when used with the E12DIY or does the amp design prevent this from being an issue?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> ClieOS (or other similarly technically skilled people), could you help me with 2 questions regarding buffer selection:
> 
> 
> Compared to the BUF634 and (to a lesser degree) the HA9P5002, the LME49600 seems to stretch the soundstage right out to the sides and at times even seems to create an image that is either left, right or centre with less in-between sounds. Is there something in the spec sheets that can predict this type of presentation difference or is it one of those unmeasurable factors?
> Reading up on the HA9P5002 I have read that there can be risk of damage to the chips in the event of having no load applied or connecting / disconnecting the load during playback of any significant volume. This is apparently due to no current limiting being built into the 5002's design. Is this a concern when used with the E12DIY or does the amp design prevent this from being an issue?


 
  
 I have to come clear and said that I have very little love on the LME49600. It is technically superior to the BUF634 on just about everything, including coloration, but I find it on the edge of a sharp knife, giving me the impression of graininess. BUF634 can be too smooth at time but it isn't so smooth that I can't accept it, while HA-5002 is neither too smooth or too edgy, just that way I like it. Channel separation is a good indication of image, but I don't think it is the only factor. I find that just a little bit of crosstalk actually help to create better depth.
  
 It is only be danger if you short the pins (like half inserting the headphone plug) for too long a time while having very loud music playing. However, by practicing good habit on using amp, mainly to turn the volume all the way down or turn the amp off when plug / unplug, the risk is minimum.


----------



## delrosa81

I know I'm off topic but I dented my E12DIY Gold case!!! Argh!!! Very fustrated over the dent!


----------



## Loquah

delrosa81 said:


> I know I'm off topic but I dented my E12DIY Gold case!!! Argh!!! Very fustrated over the dent!


 
  
 I contacted Fiio about the damage I caused to my case and they were very quick to respond with replacement options. The price is very affordable and easy to arrange if you want a replacement. Mine is a silver one, but I expect this applies for gold too.


----------



## delrosa81

loquah said:


> I contacted Fiio about the damage I caused to my case and they were very quick to respond with replacement options. The price is very affordable and easy to arrange if you want a replacement. Mine is a silver one, but I expect this applies for gold too.


 

 Thanks very much for the info!


----------



## Chefano

Ive just gave up trying to decide which one sounds best (Muses01, 02 or 627). They are so good, too bad I don't have 3 amps.. LOL. 
 By exclusion, I will close my E12DIY with MUSES01 installed on it.


----------



## Loquah

chefano said:


> Ive just gave up trying to decide which one sounds best (Muses01, 02 or 627). They are so good, too bad I don't have 3 amps.. LOL.
> By exclusion, I will close my E12DIY with MUSES01 installed on it.


 
  
 Interesting...
  
 I have LME49710 and OPA627 in transit to see if either of them can unseat the unlikely champion in my collection - the $3 NJM5532 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Perhaps one day I will try the Muses, but not yet...


----------



## pdameno66

chefano said:


> Ive just gave up trying to decide which one sounds best (Muses01, 02 or 627). They are so good, too bad I don't have 3 amps.. LOL.
> By exclusion, I will close my E12DIY with MUSES01 installed on it.




Which is the buffer You have currently installed? 
My combo is Muses02 with lme49006. With Muses01 I have Less punch and detail together with narrower soundstage.


----------



## Chefano

Im using 


pdameno66 said:


> Which is the buffer You have currently installed?
> My combo is Muses02 with lme49006. With Muses01 I have Less punch and detail together with narrower soundstage.


 
 Im using the LME49600 as well. I really like the 02, but sometimes the soundstage sounds too much artificial. I have a beautiful recording, En la fusa con Maria Creuza y Toquinho. Using the MUSES02, Vinicius voice comes from behind me, thats awkward when compared to my benchmark TH900 +TU05.


----------



## Loquah

chefano said:


> Im using
> Im using the LME49600 as well. I really like the 02, but sometimes the soundstage sounds too much artificial. I have a beautiful recording, En la fusa con Maria Creuza y Toquinho. Using the MUSES02, Vinicius voice comes from behind me, thats awkward when compared to my benchmark TH900 +TU05.


 
  
 Have you tried using HA9P5002? I found the LME49600 (which I thought I loved) was the culprit in creating a slightly artificial image.


----------



## Chefano

loquah said:


> Have you tried using HA9P5002? I found the LME49600 (which I thought I loved) was the culprit in creating a slightly artificial image.


 
 I really don't like the 5002, they don't sound musical to my ears. =(


----------



## Chefano

some bad news from my E12DIY. Ive changed the buffer to the BUF634 and then it stopped working. No matter how switch the opamps or buffers, the blue led keep blinking. Any ideas?


----------



## ClieOS

Have you tried reset?


----------



## Chefano

Yes, reseting and disconnecting the battery. =/


----------



## ClieOS

I guess it is time to contact FiiO and see if it can be sent back for repair with cost. I only remember it happened when I didn't plug the opamp secure enough. A replug generally fixes the problem. You might want to check the soldering joint on the sockets.


----------



## Loquah

chefano said:


> I really don't like the 5002, they don't sound musical to my ears. =(


 
  
 I felt the same at first and thought they were too thick sounding, but with the right op amp I love them now. (Not trying to convince you though, just sharing - all that matters is you find the sound that *you* like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## pdameno66

loquah said:


> I felt the same at first and thought they were too thick sounding, but with the right op amp I love them now. (Not trying to convince you though, just sharing - all that matters is you find the sound that *you* like
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 May I ask you which is in your opinion the right op amp, I am waiting for my Brown Dog adapters to came and hoping my soldering skills are not completely gone I will have the 5002 ready to rock in the next few days. I have Muses01 and 02, opa 627 and, of course, the stock ones.


----------



## Loquah

I think any of those will be great, but exactly which one is a question of taste. I'm loving the NJM5532 which was recommended by ClieOS and I believe is similar to the Muses01.


----------



## pdameno66

loquah said:


> I think any of those will be great, but exactly which one is a question of taste. I'm loving the NJM5532 which was recommended by ClieOS and I believe is similar to the Muses01.




 Thank You. Will go with Muses01 first.


----------



## Chefano

I don't think FIIO will repair my E12 even paying, its heavy modded. Just sent them an e-mail. Lets wait


----------



## Chefano

chefano said:


> I don't think FIIO will repair my E12 even paying, its heavy modded. Just sent them an e-mail. Lets wait


 
 I think I might have found the culprit, any ideas of kind capacitor and value is it?


----------



## ClieOS

chefano said:


> I think I might have found the culprit, any ideas of kind capacitor and value is it?


 
  
 Well, it will be much easier just to FiiO engineer to identify C46 for you.


----------



## hellfire8888

I am using lmh6321 buf and I find that it can drive dt880 600ohm to satisfactory volume but really what is the ideal buf and opamp to drive this can?


----------



## Loquah

If I remember correctly, the LMH buffer is optimized for higher impedance cans so its a good option. There's not really 1 right buffer though.


----------



## Loquah

I received OPA627 and LME49710 chips today for the DIY. Very early impressions are great for both, but I'll spend more time with them tomorrow with my IEMs to get a better sense.
  
 Initial impressions are that LME is more linear in its presentation while 627 is a bit more mid-centric, but 627 might present a bit more detail and texture...


----------



## CH23

Chefano do you've any updates regarding the broken part in hour E12DIY?


----------



## jorge8

Where is the poll on OPA-BUFF favorite combinations?


----------



## jorge8

Any news about the FiiO E12 IEM based on Muses2?


----------



## Chefano

ch23 said:


> @Chefano do you've any updates regarding the broken part in hour E12DIY?


 
 Hey CH13,
 Ive been in contact with Fiio Support, they want me to send it back to them. Ive asked if they could send me the broken cap specs or any help to troubleshoot the E12 (like a service manual) or even paying for a new board. Lets wait =) I hope I can fix it by myself or buy 1 new board, because It will take a huge amount of time to send it back for repair and wait until I get it again in Brasil.


----------



## K.T.

I tried LME49720 (dual version of LME49710), but only for a few hours. So it may not be fully burned in. 

I'm sort of liking it, but not sure yet. It is very open sounding with good bass. And tends to the warmish side, which I like. 

So far, a very clean, open sound with good, solid, propulsive bass. It avoids sounding clinical for its slight warmth. Musical, overall. 

But it seems slightly threadbare, harmonically. Gives very good basic sound, and has very good drive and dynamics. But doesn't have the harmonic refinement and atmosphere of the OPA627. 

It's not thin sounding; notes have good solidity and weight. But it seems like it doesn't portray the fine information/detail that translates into atmosphere and ambiance. Sound is solid, but basic. More so than OPA627, which is much more accomplished in this respect. 

The biggest shortfall is a slightly plastic coloration. This is from a blunted leading edge attack at the beginning of notes along with the slightly threadbare harmonics. 

Again, though, I only have a few hours on it, so hopefully things will improve with more burn in. 






loquah said:


> I received OPA627 and LME49710 chips today for the DIY. Very early impressions are great for both, but I'll spend more time with them tomorrow with my IEMs to get a better sense.
> 
> Initial impressions are that LME is more linear in its presentation while 627 is a bit more mid-centric, but 627 might present a bit more detail and texture...


----------



## Loquah

k.t. said:


> I tried LME49720 (dual version of LME49710), but only for a few hours. So it may not be fully burned in.
> 
> I'm sort of liking it, but not sure yet. It is very open sounding with good bass. And tends to the warmish side, which I like.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the great description, KT. I'll hopefully have time to do some listening tonight and compare my notes with yours above.


----------



## CH23

chefano said:


> Hey CH13,
> Ive been in contact with Fiio Support, they want me to send it back to them. Ive asked if they could send me the broken cap specs or any help to troubleshoot the E12 (like a service manual) or even paying for a new board. Lets wait =) I hope I can fix it by myself or buy 1 new board, because It will take a huge amount of time to send it back for repair and wait until I get it again in Brasil.




If it's possible to get a replacement board, that would be great. Considering this device came without warranty (for obvious reasons) getting it replaced may be a pain in the ass, not to say, very expensive.


----------



## Chefano

FIIO support just sent me the cap value. I will have to look if have a similar cap just to make  test. If it works .. great, if not I will send it back to FIIO for service, They don't have a replacement board to send me, but no problem.
 I have to tell, FIIO support is really good. They are always trying to help, I really liked. I was thinking about getting a X5 and just decided I will get a X5. Thumbs UP for FIIO!


----------



## Loquah

chefano said:


> FIIO support just sent me the cap value. I will have to look if have a similar cap just to make  test. If it works .. great, if not I will send it back to FIIO for service, They don't have a replacement board to send me, but no problem.
> I have to tell, *FIIO support is really good*. They are always trying to help, I really liked. I was thinking about getting a X5 and just decided I will get a X5. Thumbs UP for FIIO!


 
  
 +1 I agree. I received the replacement case for my DIY 2 days ago - it was very cheap to buy and ship and arrived super fast. Their communication was brilliant in my experience too.


----------



## ClieOS

Just want to add another opamp to my 'must try' recommendation - OPA827. It is detail, airy with a really good soundstage, but not edgy or grainy in anyway, and pair very well with BUF634 and HA-5002. I think it can rival OPA627 or MUSES02 without a problem.


----------



## nmatheis

clieos said:


> Just want to add another opamp to my 'must try' recommendation - OPA827. It is detail, airy with a really good soundstage, but not edgy or grainy in anyway, and pair very well with BUF634 and HA-5002. I think it can rival OPA627 or MUSES02 without a problem.




Available as DIP8?


----------



## HK_sends

clieos said:


> Just want to add another opamp to my 'must try' recommendation - OPA827. It is detail, airy with a really good soundstage, but not edgy or grainy in anyway, and pair very well with BUF634 and HA-5002. I think it can rival OPA627 or MUSES02 without a problem.


 
 How is the bass presence and extension?  Would you say the sound is balanced?
 Cheers and Thanks!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 -HK sends


----------



## beyerdude

Is this the OPA827AID version - might just have a go with this one as it is a lot more reasonable than the opa827au


nmatheis said:


> Available as DIP8?


 
  


clieos said:


> Just want to add another opamp to my 'must try' recommendation - OPA827. It is detail, airy with a really good soundstage, but not edgy or grainy in anyway, and pair very well with BUF634 and HA-5002. I think it can rival OPA627 or MUSES02 without a problem.


 
 Is that the OPA827AID opamp? - Seems a lot more reasonable than that OPA627au


----------



## ClieOS

nmatheis said:


> Available as DIP8?


 
  
 No. OPA827 only comes in SOIC and MSOP (which is even smaller than SOIC) packaging. It is a single channel opamp so you must get the SOIC version and mount it on the adapter.
  


hk_sends said:


> How is the bass presence and extension?  Would you say the sound is balanced?
> Cheers and Thanks!
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is not an bassy opamp, as far as my listening go. I'll probably categorize it as being more of a clean and clear type of opamp with a slightly sweeter mid range, quite detail but at the same time not edgy. Kind of like a smoother AD8620 or AD797, with a bigger soundstage. Overall I'll say it is still fairly balanced.
  


beyerdude said:


> Is this the OPA827AID version - might just have a go with this one as it is a lot more reasonable than the opa827au
> 
> Is that the OPA827AID opamp? - Seems a lot more reasonable than that OPA627au


 
  
 Yes, AID is the SOIC version and the right one to use. The other is MSOP version - you can still use it, but it will be much more tricky to solder as it is smaller.
  
 OPA827 is recommended by TI as OPA627 replacement. For the most part, I don't think the two are very alike in sound signature, but definitely on par on SQ.


----------



## delrosa81

loquah said:


> +1 I agree. I received the replacement case for my DIY 2 days ago - it was very cheap to buy and ship and arrived super fast. Their communication was brilliant in my experience too.


 

 Which colour for the DIY you ordered the case? Mine is gold and they told me they are out of stock for the DIY cases and offered me a black one instead. Is it because I am from Singapore that they did not want to support me on the case replacement?


----------



## Chefano

I would like to have a black case now. Btw Ive chosen the silver at the beginning.


----------



## Loquah

delrosa81 said:


> Which colour for the DIY you ordered the case? Mine is gold and they told me they are out of stock for the DIY cases and offered me a black one instead. Is it because I am from Singapore that they did not want to support me on the case replacement?


 
  
 Mine was a silver one. Sorry to hear they don't have gold spares


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> OPA827 is recommended by TI as OPA627 replacement. For the most part, I don't think the two are very alike in sound signature, but definitely on par on SQ.


 
  
 Does OPA827 has more bass than OPA627?
 I like the bass of AD8599. Is OPA827 bass close to it?
 Thanks!


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> It is not an bassy opamp, as far as my listening go. I'll probably categorize it as being more of a clean and clear type of opamp with a slightly sweeter mid range, quite detail but at the same time not edgy. Kind of like a smoother AD8620 or AD797, with a bigger soundstage. Overall I'll say it is still fairly balanced.
> 
> OPA827 is recommended by TI as OPA627 replacement. For the most part, I don't think the two are very alike in sound signature, but definitely on par on SQ.


 
  
 Would you say 827 is at all like NJM5532?


----------



## earfonia

I just would like to share recent experience with Fiio E12DIY.
  
 Recently I reviewed DUNU DN-1000, DN-2000, and JVC HA-FX850. I used Fiio E12DIY in the review. From comparison with other players, DACs, and amp I used in the review, I realize more of the potential of Fiio E12DIY. It is trully a top tier portable amp in the mid-tier price bracket. Kudos to Fiio!
  
 I used Fiio E12DIY with AD8599 Op-Amp + LME49600 buffer in the review, comparing the headphone outputs of Fiio X5 and iBasso DX90, and their line out amplified with E12DIY. What a significant improvement! The headphone outputs of those player simply couldn't realize the full potential of the DUNU DN-2000. For me, E12DIY is a must gear to use when listening my DN-2000 in a portable setup.
  
  

  

  

 Comparing the headphone output of DX90 with the line out amplified by E12DIY, using a DIY switch box.


----------



## ClieOS

delrosa81 said:


> Which colour for the DIY you ordered the case? Mine is gold and they told me they are out of stock for the DIY cases and offered me a black one instead. Is it because I am from Singapore that they did not want to support me on the case replacement?


 
  
 Gold case is the limited run (within the limited run of E12DIY no less), so it perfectly reasonable it will be the first to run out. Where you are has nothing to do with it.
  


earfonia said:


> Does OPA827 has more bass than OPA627?
> I like the bass of AD8599. Is OPA827 bass close to it?
> Thanks!


 
  
 No, it doesn't come to me as having more bass than OPA627. Bass quantity on OPA827 is roughly the same as AD8599. In fact, the two shares a large portion of their sound signature. I'll say OPA827 is a bit more forwarded while AD8599 sounds a bit more laidback. The most noticing part is the OPA827 has a more energetic lower mid to upper bass range, where AD8599 is more resonated in the same region.
  


loquah said:


> Would you say 827 is at all like NJM5532?


 
  
 I will say OPA827 has the kind of detail in NJM5532, but not in the same sound signature. NJM5532 in E12DIY is the closest of what I think 'transparent' can be, using O2 as a reference. But OPA827 is not what I'll describe as transparent. It still retains a small degree of smoothness and a fainted sense of warm'ishness of OPA627. I'll say it is more like OPA627, loses a bit (but not all) of the warm and smoothness and gains a bit more detail and soundstage.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> No, it doesn't come to me as having more bass than OPA627. Bass quantity on OPA827 is roughly the same as AD8599. In fact, the two shares a large portion of their sound signature. I'll say OPA827 is a bit more forwarded while AD8599 sounds a bit more laidback. The most noticing part is the OPA827 has a more energetic lower mid to upper bass range, where AD8599 is more resonated in the same region.




Thank you!
If i understand correctly, more bass dynamic and bass texture on OPA827?

Same spaciousness as AD8599?


----------



## ClieOS

earfonia said:


> Thank you!
> If i understand correctly, more bass dynamic and bass texture on OPA827?
> 
> Same spaciousness as AD8599?


 
  
 As compare to OPA627? No.
  
 AD8599 might be a bit more specious due to its laidbackness, but the two are close.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> As compare to OPA627? No.
> 
> AD8599 might be a bit more specious due to its laidbackness, but the two are close.




As compare to AD8599, Is OPA827 bass has better dynamic and texture?
Tx!


----------



## ClieOS

earfonia said:


> As compare to AD8599, Is OPA827 bass has better dynamic and texture?
> Tx!


 
  
 Yes.


----------



## Loquah

Thanks for all your amazing recommendations, ClieOS!
  
 I have one final question regarding OPA627 vs OPA827. Other than a more neutral sound, does OPA827 offer any other significant benefits over the OPA627?


----------



## earfonia

I just notice:
 OPA627 slew rate: 55V/µs
 OPA827 slew rate: 28V/µs
  
 OPA827 slew rate is about half the slew rate speed of OPA627.
 Still much higher than what required for audio, but there is certainly some differences there.


----------



## delrosa81

loquah said:


> Mine was a silver one. Sorry to hear they don't have gold spares


 

 Oic, thanks for the info


----------



## delrosa81

clieos said:


> Gold case is the limited run (within the limited run of E12DIY no less), so it perfectly reasonable it will be the first to run out. Where you are has nothing to do with it.


 
 Thanks for the info, I was thinking due to some regional issues, now I know.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Thanks for all your amazing recommendations, ClieOS!
> 
> I have one final question regarding OPA627 vs OPA827. Other than a more neutral sound, does OPA827 offer any other significant benefits over the OPA627?


 
  
 There are more like trade-off / pros vs. cons rather than any significant benefit. Well, the price is much cheaper on OPA827, if that counts as one.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> There are more like trade-off / pros vs. cons rather than any significant benefit. Well, the price is much cheaper on OPA827, if that counts as one.


 
  
 More to the point, I've already forked out for the OPA627 and I've run out of adapters for now so deciding if it's worth the effort to get new adapters, buy OPA827 and solder them or if I should just enjoy my current collection of:
  

AD8599
OPA627
LME49990
LME49710
NJM5532
LM4562
OPA2134
OPA2107
AD8066
All the stock inclusions


----------



## ClieOS

Pretty solid collection. I can send you a few blank adapters if you want, but they don't have pins installed (*you will need either Mill-Max 3121-2 or Harwin H3108-01). I am going to start another build thread for OPA627 (or any single channel opamp for that matter) by next month probably, and FiiO has decided to sponsor the adapter for the build.


----------



## Loquah

Thanks ClieOS. I might partake in your build for an OPA827 pair on an adapter. Will you post a link to the build thread here when you're ready?


----------



## WCDchee

Having tried the e12 diy with both muses 01 and 02, i feel that the 01 combination is quite a bit ahead of the 02. The 02 is much more airy and open, but the tone is just somewhat lacking, and reverb sounds dirty, not clean. On the whole the airiness was bordering noise, not sure if you guys get what i mean. The 01 was still spacious but less open, however, the tone was great and everything was clean, smooth, yet well textured. 

However, while it is definitely a great amp, i don't think its really as good as the best of portable amps. Having the vorzuge vorzamp pure 2 as my main amp for iems, i feel that the e12diy is still a couple of steps back in refinement, soundstaging size and coherence. In terms if airiness and blackness of the background, it also lacks behind by quite a bit.


----------



## K.T.

loquah said:


> Thanks ClieOS. I might partake in your build for an OPA827 pair on an adapter. Will you post a link to the build thread here when you're ready?




I'm very interested in this, too!


----------



## nmatheis

k.t. said:


> I'm very interested in this, too!




Me too


----------



## K.T.

After auditioning the LME49720, I'm giving up on it.

I used it in my E12DIY with BUF634, and more extensively in the CMOYBB. 

While it does some fine qualities, great focused bass, a fine sense of pace and propulsiveness, and a nice, wide open and spacious sound, I couldn't quite get over a slightly artificial plastic quality. 

I'd describe this as a slightly blunted attack at the leading edge of notes coupled with a slight lack of harmonic sophistication overall. 

The sound was actually very good, but for these shortcomings ultimately sounded a bit too restrained and homogenous. The overall impression was sound that was quite good, but a little too even, and a bit short on emotional drama.

Of course, system synergy has a lot to do with the success of a device, so I'd love to hear the opinion of anyone who's had great success with this chip.

I replaced it with NJM5532, and after 10 minutes so far, I can hear the potential. It's still rough, but pretty darned good. Very transparent. Captivating in that way.

If things smooth out and open up a bit more, I'll like the NJM5532 very much.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Thanks ClieOS. I might partake in your build for an OPA827 pair on an adapter. Will you post a link to the build thread here when you're ready?


 
  
 Sure, but right now I am focusing on getting the last of HA-5002 built before starting a new build. Plus opamp build will be a much more complicated affair, cost and logistic wise. Need a bit more time to organize.
  


wcdchee said:


> Having tried the e12 diy with both muses 01 and 02, i feel that the 01 combination is quite a bit ahead of the 02. The 02 is much more airy and open, but the tone is just somewhat lacking, and reverb sounds dirty, not clean. On the whole the airiness was bordering noise, not sure if you guys get what i mean. The 01 was still spacious but less open, however, the tone was great and everything was clean, smooth, yet well textured.
> 
> However, while it is definitely a great amp, i don't think its really as good as the best of portable amps. Having the vorzuge vorzamp pure 2 as my main amp for iems, i feel that the e12diy is still a couple of steps back in refinement, soundstaging size and coherence. In terms if airiness and blackness of the background, it also lacks behind by quite a bit.


 
  
 I'll say MUSES01 is very analog and almost euphonic sounding. It is one of a kind.
  
 If you haven't tried another buffer (mainly HA-5002) or swap out the caps, I'll say you haven't seen all the faces of E12DIY yet.


----------



## WCDchee

clieos said:


> Sure, but right now I am focusing on getting the last of HA-5002 built before starting a new build. Plus opamp build will be a much more complicated affair, cost and logistic wise. Need a bit more time to organize.
> 
> 
> I'll say MUSES01 is very analog and almost euphonic sounding. It is one of a kind.
> ...




Well i admit that is a possibility. Perhaps if you are dropping by singapore with a spare set i could buy it off you


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> I'll say MUSES01 is very analog and almost euphonic sounding. It is one of a kind.
> 
> If you haven't tried another buffer (mainly HA-5002) or swap out the caps, I'll say you haven't seen all the faces of E12DIY yet.




So much praise has been heaped on the MUSE02, I was half thinking the MUSES01 was a lesser chip. Glad to see it has some champions.

In fact, I just put the MUSES01 in an E12DIY along with HA-5002. Good golly, what a natural sound! 

It's as you say, very analog. We'll see, but I wonder if this will be my favorite chip.

One interesting thing is I'm not sure the HA-5002 is fully to my liking. Ok, I only have a handful of hours on it. So far it's good, but is not as lush and emotive as the BUF634. I know it has a tighter, cleaner sound than the BUF634, but the HA-5002 doesn't sound like it's breathing yet. I appreciate it's character, but right now it sounds kinda stiff. Doesn't flow or breathe yet. 

Will this change with more burn in, or is this the general sound of the HA-5002? I'm willing to give it some more time, but tempted to switch back to BUF634.

Soon I will roll caps, and am eyeing the OxiCaps. I looked them up on both Digikey and Mouser. The ones I found come in a square package with folded under solder tabs. Is this the right one? I could not find any radial packages with standard leads. Any hints?

Finally, has anyone had trouble opening up their E12DIY amp? I cannot open mine far enough to access the buffers.

I have two of them, a gold one and a sliver one. 

The gold one opens up fine - has every time. But my silver one cannot open up far enough to change out the buffer. It just gets tougher and tougher to slide open as you go, and and is impossible to push open at a certain point.

Looking inside the case, it looks like there's a thin metal bar/strap holds the battery down, but maybe the ends of that bar sticks out too wide and is gouging against the inside surface of the case. I can actually see some deep gouge marks along the upper corners on the inside of the case.

Frustrating, very frustrating. Anybody experience this? Any hints?


----------



## Loquah

k.t. said:


> So much praise has been heaped on the MUSE02, I was half thinking the MUSES01 was a lesser chip. Glad to see it has some champions.
> 
> In fact, I just put the MUSES01 in an E12DIY along with HA-5002. Good golly, what a natural sound!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I had this trouble at first with mine and discovered one of the screws holding the battery cover was slightly loose and therefore sitting higher than it should. Perhaps yours has the same issue?


----------



## ClieOS

That's how HA-5002 is, I don't think it will change with time (mine doesn't). But that's exactly why I like it, because it is not there most of the time.
  
 Oxicaps is SMD, so you won't find any leaded version. I just solder two leads on it.
  
 There is a sticker on where the LED are (to defuse light) and sometime it gets into the way as the glue sticks onto the inner frame. In that case, you will just have to be patient and push a bit more.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

clieos said:


> That's how HA-5002 is, I don't think it will change with time (mine doesn't). But that's exactly why I like it, because it is not there most of the time.
> 
> Oxicaps is SMD, so you won't find any leaded version. I just solder two leads on it.
> 
> There is a sticker on where the LED are (to defuse light) and sometime it gets into the way as the glue sticks onto the inner frame. In that case, you will just have to be patient and push a bit more.




Could you provide links to the Vishay and OXICAP caps that you tried?


----------



## lalala6

So I got my HA-5002 from ClieOS a few weeks back (Thanks ClieOS!). On first listen, it sounded a little stringent or edgy, and I wasn't sure if I liked its sound. But it eventually got better and is now my favorite buffer for the DIY. Not sure if the buffer burned in or I just got used to the sound. Extremely clear and dynamic sound, with none of the stringency I initially heard. I sometimes still prefer the LME49600 for its smoothness though. It was my main buffer before I had the HA-5002. For some reason I just couldn't get myself to like the BUF634, it sounded a little too clinical for my tastes.

Through my ownership of the E12DIY, I've amassed quite a collection of op-amps. Shall list them here:

OPA627, LME49990, AD8599, LM4562, LME49720, OPA2604, OPA2134, OPA2227, LME49860, NJM5532, MUSES8820, MUSES8920, MUSES01, MUSES02, and of course the four stock op-amps.

Probably going to get the OPA827 next. Is there any other op-amps of note that I should get?


----------



## Loquah

I've spent some time lately with different buffers and op amps to make some notes. Like @lalala6 above, I have found HA9P5002 (HA-5002) to be the best buffer after some initial reservations. To me it's the most natural sounding of the buffers I've tried and is a nice mid-point combining the best of the BUF634 and LME49600.
  
 I used X5 line-out as the source with UM Miracles, FIDUE A83s and Shure SE846s. Music was a range of rock, acoustic, electronic rock (e.g. Annie Lennox) and blues.
  
 Here are my notes on the op amps I've tried (the * represents favourites of mine):
  
*OPA1611**

Detail rich
Bright treble, but not harsh
Slightly flat soundstage - lacking some depth
Excellent sense of detail and separation
  
*LME49990*

Smoother than OPA627
Up front vocals with lots of detail
A lot like a smooth and warm OPA1611 (same flat stage, but good separation)
Nice option to smooth over poor recordings / bright earphones without dulling the details
Lacks a little bit of PRaT / engagement (a little like LME49710)
  
*AD8066**

Nicer mids than AD8620
Flat stage (similar to OPA1611)
More engaging than other AD chips
On par with LME49710, but with a bit less mid-bass emphasis and sharper edge - awesome bass extension
My soldering job might be faulty - created sudden bursts of static / white noise with HA9P5002s, but didn't notice this with LME49600
  
*OPA604*

Vocals front and centre
Very smooth and coherent
Maybe a bit too smooth - very laid back
  
*AD8599*

Less forward in the midst than the OPA chips
Nice sense of space, but a slight loss of clarity - seems slightly hazy with details not popping out
Deep bass extension (possibly due to less midbass)
  
*AD8620*

AD8599 with better treble clarity
Clean and crisp - slightly dry, but not unpleasant
Flat stage
Less involving than other chips
Deep, deep bass again
  
*AD797*

Equally flat sounding - all the AD's are like this?
Treble sounds a bit fake / plastic
Not engaging
  
*OPA2107*

Engaging midrange, but very laidback overall
Quite thick and smooth
Nothing special - a bit too dark and smooth
  
*OPA2134*

Nice sense of atmosphere
Smooth, but good clarity
Narrow stage
  
*NJM5532**

Clean and transparent
Really nice coherency
Very neutral
Outstanding bass extension (perhaps due to no mid-bass hump)
Slightly less layering and texture than OPA627, but has a little more air
  
*LM4562*

Boosted upper mids
Clean and relatively engaging - a nice balance between OPA and AD chips
A tiny bit edgy in the upper mids / lower treble which can make it sound a little plastic
  
*OPA627AU**

Clean and detailed
Smooth and warm, but not veiled - like the perfect tube amplifier where musicality meets full detail and resolution
Nice sense of space and layering
Central emphasis on image (vocals and mids slightly forward?)
  
*LME49710*

Similar signature to NJM5532 (slightly "airier" than OPA627)
Stronger bass can sound a little less tight than NJM5532
Everything seems a little blunted and a little lacking in energy, but not veiled - different to that
Missing some PRaT compared to other options
  
 After all this testing I have come to the conclusion that my favourite op amps for the E12DIY (in order) are:

OPA627AU / NJM5532 tied for first place - OPA627AU wins out perhaps because it can be installed with no case modification
AD8066
OPA1611
  
 Overall I am personally disappointed by almost all of the AD chips, but this might just be a personal taste thing.
  
 Thanks so much to @ClieOS for the many recommendations along the way - each piece of advice and description of op amps has been spot on!!


----------



## Loquah

Could the sudden bursts of static I am hearing from my AD8066 op amp be a result of poor pairing with the HA9P5002 buffers? I didn't experience any issues with LME49600 previously (and scared to try it again now because it's killing my ears as it comes on with no warning and no consistency of timing - can be at start up or 30 seconds into listening, etc.)
  
 I'm going to try reheating the solder joints because there's the chance I have a shoddy connection, but curious if I'm missing something I should be aware of.


----------



## lalala6

Thanks Loquah for the very informative descriptions of each opamp! Very helpful.
  
 Slightly interested in the AD8066. How does its mids fare against your best opamps?


----------



## Loquah

lalala6 said:


> Thanks Loquah for the very informative descriptions of each opamp! Very helpful.
> 
> Slightly interested in the AD8066. How does its mids fare against your best opamps?


 
  
 Its mids are similar to NJM5532 I'd say. In line with other frequencies, natural and clean. I think it falls just short of 5532 in terms of attack and therefore overall engagement, but it's a dual SOIC chip so a nice no fuss option for a neutral signature.
  
 I'll try to fix it and test further when it's not shredding my ears so I can compare more thoroughly


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> Could you provide links to the Vishay and OXICAP caps that you tried?


 
  
 http://my.element14.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1166883
 http://my.element14.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1432275
  
 You can skip the Vishay as it really isn't that difference from the stock Wima.


----------



## Chefano

Guys Im sending my E12 to repair, it will take an eternity to get it back in my hands. So I decided to buy another unit. Can you kindly help me where to buy one?
 Regards


----------



## earfonia

loquah said:


> After all this testing I have come to the conclusion that my favourite op amps for the E12DIY (in order) are:
> 
> OPA627AU / NJM5532 tied for first place - OPA627AU wins out perhaps because it can be installed with no case modification
> AD8066
> ...


 
  
 Excellent! Bookmarked!
  
 I love AD8599 + LME49600 buffer. Strike a good balance for my DN-1000 and DN-2000.
  
 Would be useful if you could mention your setup.
 What recordings, sources and headphones were used during the test. I believe the key is in holistic matching.
 There is no one gear suits all. There is no one op-amp suits all.


----------



## Loquah

earfonia said:


> Excellent! Bookmarked!
> 
> I love AD8599 + LME49600 buffer. Strike a good balance for my DN-1000 and DN-2000.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good point. I used X5 line-out as the source with UM Miracles, FIDUE A83s and Shure SE846s. Music was a range of rock, acoustic, electronic rock (e.g. Annie Lennox) and blues.
  
 I'll edit the original post to include this info.


----------



## Loquah

I can't work out what's going wrong with my AD8066 chip. I tried reheating the joints this morning and a visual inspection (without magnification admittedly) shows no signs of bridged pins or similar issues. Most times, as soon as I power up I get a burst of static and then nothing and the blue light starts to flash.


----------



## K.T.

Nice review, Loquah.

I haven't tried everything on your list, but I do agree with the OPA627. And after less than an hour with NJM5532, I'm starting to get the feeling that will be a winner, too.

Have you tried the MUSES chips yet? I think they are on a par with the OPA627, but more intimate and even more midcentric. If the OPA627 were like a tube amp, as in your example, the MUSES might be like a class A single ended tube amp. Though the bass impact may not be as prominent, it seduces you with a super involving midrange. It's a chip that favors tone and texture instead of rhythm and pace. Quite beautiful sounding.

I had a MUSES01 in my CMOYBB and put it aside to try the LME49720 in a sister CMOYBB amp. When I put the MUSES01 back in, I was blown away by how musical it was. Head and shoulders above the LME49720, IMO.

I've since put a new MUSES01 into my E12DIY with an HA-5002. It's sounding good, but I can tell it needs more burn time. Very natural and analog. Very nice.

I also have a MUSES02 in another E12DIY with a BUF634, and I'm still getting a handle on that. I'll come back to it soon, but for the short time I auditioned it, I felt it was on par with OPA627 in terms of quality. Signature may be somewhere between the super lush and analog sounding MUSES01 and the OPA627.

On the horizon, the OPA827. Can't wait to try those!


----------



## beyerdude

k.t. said:


> Nice review, Loquah.
> 
> I haven't tried everything on your list, but I do agree with the OPA627. And after less than an hour with NJM5532, I'm starting to get the feeling that will be a winner, too.
> 
> ...


 
  
 My list of op-amps to try is getting longer by the day.......curses - opa627, opa827 njn5532, MUSES01, LME49990  - has anyone attempted to solder the opamps with a 25w soldering iron or am I going to end up needing a temperature controlled station? - don't really want to discover the hard way that opa627au don't like too much heat!


----------



## CH23

As much as i want to roll my opamps, i'm not going to anymore, for 2 reasons: getting real opamps, instead of their fake counterparts is too much of a hassle, and then getting real ones for a proper price within proper time, is almost impossible.
And my MUSE 02 has very bendy legs. Don't want to break them.



chefano said:


> Guys Im sending my E12 to repair, it will take an eternity to get it back in my hands. So I decided to buy another unit. Can you kindly help me where to buy one?
> Regards




Depending on your location. If you live in europe you're in luck! 

http://www.playstereo.com/product_info.php?cPath=6_55&products_id=2422

I bought mine from there. Last place not to have a ridiculous pricetag.


----------



## Chefano

ch23 said:


> As much as i want to roll my opamps, i'm not going to anymore, for 2 reasons: getting real opamps, instead of their fake counterparts is too much of a hassle, and then getting real ones for a proper price within proper time, is almost impossible.
> And my MUSE 02 has very bendy legs. Don't want to break them.
> Depending on your location. If you live in europe you're in luck!
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you very much CH23! Gonna check if they ship to Brazil!


----------



## ClieOS

To all, as promised, I have opened an build thread for opamp with adapter for E12DIY. Please refer to the thread below for detail:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/728607/opamp-adapter-for-fiio-e12diy


----------



## beyerdude

ch23 said:


> As much as i want to roll my opamps, i'm not going to anymore, for 2 reasons: getting real opamps, instead of their fake counterparts is too much of a hassle, and then getting real ones for a proper price within proper time, is almost impossible.
> And my MUSE 02 has very bendy legs. Don't want to break them.
> Depending on your location. If you live in europe you're in luck!
> 
> ...


 
 I would be nervous with a Muses opamp - I know the opa627 dip8 pins were pretty easy to bend and it was also a pig to remove on my old amp - was always nervous with them


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> To all, as promised, I have opened an build thread for opamp with adapter for E12DIY. Please refer to the thread below for detail:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/728607/opamp-adapter-for-fiio-e12diy




Right as i'm in the middle of buying a complete furniture ( ;A; )



beyerdude said:


> I would be nervous with a Muses opamp - I know the opa627 dip8 pins were pretty easy to bend and it was also a pig to remove on my old amp - was always nervous with them




I'm glad it fit without having to modify my case, albeit snug.

Just going to leave it in there and not worry about it


----------



## ClassicalViola

earfonia said:


> I just notice:
> OPA627 slew rate: 55V/µs
> OPA827 slew rate: 28V/µs
> 
> ...


 
 Just curious about this term 'slew rate' since you mentioned it.
  
 So in the case of these two op amps, does the slew rate indicate that one will have an advantage/disadvantage over the other under certain circumstances (if any)? Tried searching and reading about 'slew rate' but still couldn't really find what I wanted to know. Would appreciate it if you (or anyone else who knows about this kind of stuff) could elaborate more on what you have posted as quoted above. Thanks!


----------



## Loquah

classicalviola said:


> Just curious about this term 'slew rate' since you mentioned it.
> 
> So in the case of these two op amps, does the slew rate indicate that one will have an advantage/disadvantage over the other under certain circumstances (if any)? Tried searching and reading about 'slew rate' but still couldn't really find what I wanted to know. Would appreciate it if you (or anyone else who knows about this kind of stuff) could elaborate more on what you have posted as quoted above. Thanks!


 
  
 Agree!! It's really hard to find easy to understand explanations of how to read op amp data sheets.


----------



## ampair

classicalviola said:


> Just curious about this term 'slew rate' since you mentioned it.
> 
> So in the case of these two op amps, does the slew rate indicate that one will have an advantage/disadvantage over the other under certain circumstances (if any)? Tried searching and reading about 'slew rate' but still couldn't really find what I wanted to know. Would appreciate it if you (or anyone else who knows about this kind of stuff) could elaborate more on what you have posted as quoted above. Thanks!


 
  
 slew rate describes the maximum steepness of the voltage ramp at the output of the opamp, means: if you perform a sudden jump in input voltage, the output cannot immediately follow this jump but ramps the voltage up until it reaches the end value.
  
 in the case of opa827 in the e12diy (max output voltage is just short of 20Vpp iirc) this means that it can perform a full-range sine wave of (roughly estimated) 500khz without distortion. that is about 25 times faster than required for audio applications, so you should be on the safe side


----------



## earfonia

classicalviola said:


> Just curious about this term 'slew rate' since you mentioned it.
> 
> So in the case of these two op amps, does the slew rate indicate that one will have an advantage/disadvantage over the other under certain circumstances (if any)? Tried searching and reading about 'slew rate' but still couldn't really find what I wanted to know. Would appreciate it if you (or anyone else who knows about this kind of stuff) could elaborate more on what you have posted as quoted above. Thanks!


 
  
 In simplistic analogy, slew rate can be understood as speed. How fast an amplifier output can follow voltage variation on its input. The faster the slew rate, theoretically the amp output can imitate the waveform at its input, more precise. Translate to audio quality, we can expect less waveform distortion with high slew rate amp, for more accurate tonality and dynamic.  But slew rate is not everything, there are many other factor that make up the audio quality. And for audio, theoretically we don't really need a very high slew rate.
  
 Minimum theoretically required slew rate:
  
*Slew Rate = 2 x **π x Frequency x Peak Voltage*
  
 Let's assume maximum requirement for headphone amplifier, for example my Mytek 192-DSD DAC headphone output, it has a maximum of 10 volt rms output. The minimum required slew rate for that amplifier would be 1.78 V/µs to cover 20kHz frequency.
  
 Let say with the high definition formats these days, we want amplifier that is linear up to 100 kHz, than we can see that 8.9 V/µs slew rate would be sufficient for most headphone amp.


----------



## ClieOS

The key is mostly not to be slew rate limited (*too slow for the job), as opposed to which one is faster, since most opamp these days are much faster than what audio required. Opamp for video, which tends to be very wide band and super fast, can be problematic too, as they are less stable on audio circuit without some kind of compensation. Basically you want something there is neither too slow or too fast, so to speak.


----------



## earfonia

clieos said:


> The key is mostly not to be slew rate limited (*too slow for the job), as opposed to which one is faster, since most opamp these days are much faster than what audio required. Opamp for video, which tends to be very wide band and super fast, can be problematic too, as they are less stable on audio circuit without some kind of compensation. Basically you want something there is neither too slow or too fast, so to speak.


 
  
 That's correct!  
 Ultra fast slew rate usually needs compensation that might not do good to audio quality.


----------



## ClieOS

Just a reminder to those who are interested in the E12DIY opamp build that the thread will be closed soon at 6th August (around 12am EST US). There won't be a 2nd run so please decide soon.


----------



## nmatheis

clieos said:


> Just a reminder to those who are interested in the E12DIY opamp build that the thread will be closed soon at 6th August (around 12am EST US). There won't be a 2nd run so please decide soon.




Thanks again for offering this service to the community!


----------



## hoekeat

I am curious how you guys store your extra opamp/buffer that is not in use? I am still keeping them in the static bag that comes with it, and then placing all of them in a bigger box. But it is getting kind of unorganized now.


----------



## Loquah

hoekeat said:


> I am curious how you guys store your extra opamp/buffer that is not in use? I am still keeping them in the static bag that comes with it, and then placing all of them in a bigger box. But it is getting kind of unorganized now.


 
  
 My op amps for the DIY (SOIC on adapters) are all stuck into the foam in the tin that came with the DIY. My full size ones are in a little snap-lock container that came with the OPA627BPs and A-Class browndogs I ordered ages ago.


----------



## nmatheis

Stuck in the foam that came with E12 DIY or in a storage "tube" some opamps I ordered case in.


----------



## Chefano

Well, Ive decided to buy another unit, meanwhile mine gets back from China.  One unit will run on OPA627 and onther one almost sure on Muses01.
  
 Lets wait!


----------



## CH23

ClieOS just got the buffers. The air instrument separation made my head spin. I am flabbergasted. Wow.

I thank you so very much. Well worth the wait/money.


----------



## ClieOS

Glad to know you like it


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> Glad to know you like it




I am so far away from actual hi fi. Every time i upgrade something i realise i'm just beginning to understand what sound quality *really* _is_

Anyway.

Pic:


----------



## nmatheis

Which buffers, CH23?


----------



## CH23

nmatheis said:


> Which buffers, CH23?




HA-5002's on Browndog adaptors.


----------



## nmatheis

Oh ho! I've got a pair of those, too, but haven't moved on to them yet. Still busy trying out different opamps .


----------



## CH23

nmatheis said:


> Oh ho! I've got a pair of those, too, but haven't moved on to them yet. Still busy trying out different opamps .




I might try the MUSE 01, but the 02 sounds terrific already.


----------



## Loquah

I decided to compare OPA627 with NJM5532 (using HA-5002 buffers) tonight and I think I prefer the 5532 over the 627 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'm hoping the OPA827 that I ordered in ClieOS' build program will satisfy my needs for a more neutral sounding op-amp in a SOIC package.


----------



## nmatheis

jorge8 said:


> Any news about the FiiO E12 IEM based on Muses2?




Joe Bloggs, JamesFiiO: Any word on E12 IEM, good sirs?


----------



## Loquah

Sshhh! You're scaring my wallet!


----------



## nmatheis

loquah said:


> Sshhh! You're scaring my wallet!




An E12 DIY IEM would really scare your wallet!


----------



## Loquah

LOL. Actually with FiiO's brilliant value for money I don't think it'll be too bad and well worth it, but that perspective isn't as fun :-D


----------



## Loquah

Folks, I have a weird one to ask for your help with... I'm currently using the E12DIY with HA-5002 and OPA627. When I use my SE846 or Miracles with the stock cables they sound just perfect, but I have 3 different Litz cables (Toxic, DHC and Norne), all of which create a low hum (like a battery power hum) with the E12DIY. I haven't yet changed buffers to see if that's the issue, but thought it weird that the problem occurs only with aftermarket Litz cables and with both the Miracles and SE846.
  
 For the record, the hum exists even without a source connected to the DIY input, but is also present when the X5 line-out is connected.
  
 Any thoughts on this?


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> Folks, I have a weird one to ask for your help with... I'm currently using the E12DIY with HA-5002 and OPA627. When I use my SE846 or Miracles with the stock cables they sound just perfect, but I have 3 different Litz cables (Toxic, DHC and Norne), all of which create a low hum (like a battery power hum) with the E12DIY. I haven't yet changed buffers to see if that's the issue, but thought it weird that the problem occurs only with aftermarket Litz cables and with both the Miracles and SE846.
> 
> For the record, the hum exists even without a source connected to the DIY input, but is also present when the X5 line-out is connected.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?




What happens if you hold the E12DIY?


----------



## palermo

everyone in the DIY CMOY, usually check the DC offset of their opamp configuration. the best DC offset should near 0.0 DCV, if not it will get hum. Sensitive IEM prone to get hum easily.


----------



## Loquah

No change if I hold the DIY.

If it was a DC offset issue, wouldn't it happen regardless of the cables I use? Both IEMs are very sensitive, but the hum only occurs with the aftermarket litz cables.


----------



## palermo

loquah said:


> No change if I hold the DIY.
> 
> If it was a DC offset issue, wouldn't it happen regardless of the cables I use? Both IEMs are very sensitive, but the hum only occurs with the aftermarket litz cables.


 
 Couple weeks ago I did a DIY project amp. by measuring, it got different DC offset for each channel, 0.1mV & 0.3mV. There was no hum with stock cable on my stagediver iem which is not too sensitive (40 Ohm). But I got hum on left channel with Estron BaX cable. Still don't know why, but I think it relate to DC offset.


----------



## Loquah

Perhaps the aftermarket cables are increasing sensitivity?


----------



## Loquah

Just had a chance to play with the buffers and the HA-5002 (HA9P5002) is the culprit that's causing the hum. Both the BUF634 and LME49600 are completely fine with the SE846s and aftermarket cables.
  
 Does that mean that my HA-5002 mounting job is crappy or that the HA-5002 just isn't optimal for highly sensitive setups in the DIY?
  
 EDIT: decided to also test different op-amps with the HA-5002 and found some interesting results:
  

OPA627 - "power" hum
OPA1611 - slight hiss
NJM5532 - silent (or as near to as possible)
LME49710 - slight hiss
AD797 - silent (or as near to as possible)
AD8620 - silent (or as near to as possible)
AD8599 - silent (or as near to as possible)
OPA604 - silent (or as near to as possible)
LME49990 - tiny, tiny hiss - more than "silent" ones but still insignificant


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> Just had a chance to play with the buffers and the HA-5002 (HA9P5002) is the culprit that's causing the hum. Both the BUF634 and LME49600 are completely fine with the SE846s and aftermarket cables.
> 
> Does that mean that my HA-5002 mounting job is crappy or that the HA-5002 just isn't optimal for highly sensitive setups in the DIY?
> 
> ...




As long as it isn't noticeable when you play music, i wouldn't worry about it. I guess it's the HA-5002‘s though, i have it too, but for me it gets a lot quieter when i hold the device.


----------



## ClieOS

HA-5002 can have a mild DC offset when unloaded, but it should go down to zero / near zero once there is a load connected (I checked with a multimeter). On the other hand, BUF634 shouldn't have any DC offset loaded or unloaded. But I do observed that HA-5002 can be finicky when it comes to connection. Even a slight insecure connection in the socket can cause it to distort mildly. You might want to clean the HA-5002 pins and see if it helps.


----------



## Loquah

OK. Thanks, ClieOS.
  
 How does the op amp used change the results I'm hearing? I'm hoping the OPA827 makes for the perfect combo because I really want to use the SE846s with aftermarket cables, but that seems to be limiting my op amp options.


----------



## ClieOS

Well, each opamp has its own noise, DC offset, EMI performance, etc, and they all get carried to the buffer.  However, I am not sure why those Litz cables are so prone to these noise. You might want to measure their capacitance and impedance if you have a chance and see if they are really that difference compared to the stock cable.


----------



## Loquah

Impedance is slightly higher on the non-standard cable (about 1 ohm versus 0.8-0.9 ohms on the stock cable).
  
 Not sure how to read capacitance correctly - should I be measuring just one channel (i.e. right active)? On the stock cable I get <1 nF reading an isolated channel, but this jumps to >4nF if I accidentally measure across different cables (i.e. probe on earth at one end and active at the other). How should I measure correctly and what am I looking for?


----------



## ClieOS

Most cable capacitance should be in the low pico range though. I am not sure what is the typical number to shot for, but I think the important bit here is to compare the stock to the non-stock. I'll measure the hot vs. ground and see if there is a huge difference between stock and non-stock.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Most cable capacitance should be in the low pico range though. I am not sure what is the typical number to shot for, but I think the important bit here is to compare the stock to the non-stock. I'll measure the hot vs. ground and see if there is a huge difference between stock and non-stock.


 
  
 So should I be measuring hot-to-hot and ground-to-ground on each?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> So should I be measuring hot-to-hot and ground-to-ground on each?


 
  
 One lead on hot, another on ground.


----------



## toears

Mine just stopped working. I have added a muses02 months ago, nothing else. I had it on my desk all the time. No light in any of the two led's, no clicking sound when turning it on. And it isn't charging I guess. Any ideas what is not working anymore ?


----------



## CH23

toears said:


> Mine just stopped working. I have added a muses02 months ago, nothing else. I had it on my desk all the time. No light in any of the two led's, no clicking sound when turning it on. And it isn't charging I guess. Any ideas what is not working anymore ?




The charger?


----------



## Loquah

toears said:


> Mine just stopped working. I have added a muses02 months ago, nothing else. I had it on my desk all the time. No light in any of the two led's, no clicking sound when turning it on. And it isn't charging I guess. Any ideas what is not working anymore ?


 
  
 Has it been a while since you used it or was it left on?
  
 Perhaps leave it on charge overnight and see if it wakes up


----------



## toears

loquah said:


> Has it been a while since you used it or was it left on?
> 
> Perhaps leave it on charge overnight and see if it wakes up


 
 Will try it, but it is on 5 days a week  Charged randomly.  Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

There is a reset hole, in case you forget.


----------



## toears

I did try the reset button. I am about to ship it back to FiiO. Since it is my first amplifier and i like the whole idea about the setup I am prepared to pay the repair cost. 
  
 Any (other) suggestions to an alternative to this amp ? It will feed iem and later on noble ciem. 
  
 Thanks


----------



## Deterministic NL

Guys I have 2 MUSES01 and 2 MUSES02 brand new in the box purchased from Akizukidenshi in Japan. They are an authorized dealer for Japan Radio Corp. (JRC).  These are authentic chips.  I also live in Japan (MCAS Iwakuni)  I need to sell them and will sell them at zero profit.  They cost 14,300 yen which is exactly $143 today with the exchange rate at 100 yen = 1 dollar.  It will cost me $5.80 to Priority Mail them to you.  So for $148.80 I can ship them to you.  I can only send USPS Priority Mail from MCAS Iwakuni. 
  
 You can PM me here or email me at hagensieker@mac.com  I have picked up several MUSES for other members here so I'm sure somebody will vouch for me. I just have extra from an order I need to get rid of. 
  
 John Hagensieker
  
 Attached is the email from Akizukidenshi below showing cost.
  

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----------



## CH23

deterministic nl said:


> You can PM me here or email me at hagensieker@mac.com  I have picked up several MUSES for other members here so *I'm sure somebody will vouch for me.* I just have extra from an order I need to get rid of.
> 
> John Hagensieker




Still rocking my Muse 02, delivered by Deterministic.
Now thinking about buying these off of you, as backup :X


----------



## Loquah

deterministic nl said:


> Guys I have 2 MUSES01 and 2 MUSES02 brand new in the box purchased from Akizukidenshi in Japan. They are an authorized dealer for Japan Radio Corp. (JRC).  These are authentic chips.  I also live in Japan (MCAS Iwakuni)  I need to sell them and will sell them at zero profit.  They cost 14,300 yen which is exactly $143 today with the exchange rate at 100 yen = 1 dollar.  It will cost me $5.80 to Priority Mail them to you.  So for $148.80 I can ship them to you.  I can only send USPS Priority Mail from MCAS Iwakuni.
> 
> You can PM me here or email me at hagensieker@mac.com  I have picked up several MUSES for other members here so I'm sure somebody will vouch for me. I just have extra from an order I need to get rid of.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm really interested in these, but I'm unclear on the pricing. Is it $148.80 each or for all four?
  
 EDIT: Just looked closer at the notes from akizukidenshi so gather it's for all 4, but please confirm.


----------



## Loquah

Should add that this would be a massive favour to me (or anyone else in Australia / New Zealand) as it's crazy trying to by these in Australia due to Mouser's minimum shipping costs.


----------



## beyerdude

loquah said:


> I'm really interested in these, but I'm unclear on the pricing. Is it $148.80 each or for all four?
> 
> EDIT: Just looked closer at the notes from akizukidenshi so gather it's for all 4, but please confirm.


 
 If you are interested in 1 set of 01 and 02  I am interested in the other 01 and 02 @Loquah


----------



## Loquah

beyerdude said:


> If you are interested in 1 set of 01 and 02  I am interested in the other 01 and 02 @Loquah


 
  
 That could work


----------



## beyerdude

loquah said:


> That could work


 
 Okay @Loquah- I'm game!! - @Deterministic NL if the shipping cost is the same to Australia would you be willing to ship us a Muses 01 and 02 each? - local shipping here between us ironically would cost more than from Japan!!


----------



## ClieOS

Guys, you should do it over the for sale forum, so all of you can get trader feedback for future reference.


----------



## Deterministic NL

I've got someone on email offering to buy right now.  If that somehow falls apart I can do that.  But it looks pretty solid.
  
 John


----------



## Chefano

Hey Guys!
 Im back!!
 Im just testing my completely stock E12 with LT1010 and OPA627. Its a hell of a buffer! Highly recommended!
  
 For those, who like me, use IEM .. this little person is dead silent!


----------



## Audio Reiner

I run a E12DIY with HD5002, MUSES 02 and Silmic capacitors. In the past I've heard this combination only with the AKG K3003. For my Audeze LCD-2, I've always used the Alo PanAm. 
Today I have for the first time compared the two amplifiers on the LCD 2. The result has me totally surprised.

Sell ​​Alo PanAm!


----------



## Loquah

audio reiner said:


> I run a E12DIY with HD5002, MUSES 02 and Silmic capacitors. In the past I've heard this combination only with the AKG K3003. For my Audeze LCD-2, I've always used the Alo PanAm.
> Today I have for the first time compared the two amplifiers on the LCD 2. The result has me totally by surprise.
> Sell ​​Alo PanAm!


 
  
 Wow. That's a big call!
  
 (Not saying you're wrong - I'm just surprised given the huge amounts of praise for the LCD2 + Pan Am combo)


----------



## hoekeat

hoekeat said:


> I am curious how you guys store your extra opamp/buffer that is not in use? I am still keeping them in the static bag that comes with it, and then placing all of them in a bigger box. But it is getting kind of unorganized now.


 

 just found out these anti static container is rather cheap. Anyone tried them?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191297733270?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## CH23

I've a "problem"

When there's no music playing, or nothing connected to the E12DIY, i can hear a very slight bit of "white noise" on the right channel.

I've switched buffers for each channel, but it's still only the right channel that does this.

Also, there's a metal plate in front of the potmeter that's supposed to be soldered in a hole, but it isn't. Could this give the problems? (See photo)


----------



## ClieOS

Don't think the metal plate has anything to do with it. It might not be in the hole but it is connected no less.


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> Don't think the metal plate has anything to do with it. It might not be in the hole but it is connected no less.




The photo doesn't show it, but it's not soldered to the PCB as of now. Once i found my soldering iron, i'll solder it back on the PCB. As for the noise, i think it might be one of the silmic capacitors. I have a 3rd one, and will see if this fixes it.


----------



## ClieOS

Still I don't think an insignificant passive metal plate will cause noise. Must be something else at play here.


----------



## fzman

clieos said:


> Still I don't think an insignificant passive metal plate will cause noise. Must be something else at play here.


 
 I'm thinking that if it is there to ground the pot, and it is not making electrical contact with ground, then it may not be preventing noise, rather than causing it...  but not all that likely.


----------



## ClieOS

fzman said:


> I'm thinking that if it is there to ground the pot, and it is not making electrical contact with ground, then it may not be preventing noise, rather than causing it...  but not all that likely.


 
  
 Well, if the noise comes (or gone) only when you are touching the pot, then it is a sign that it is not grounded properly. But given it doesn't seems to be the case, and the fact that the PCB is already grounded to the housing, I doubt it is of any significant.


----------



## fzman

clieos said:


> Well, if the noise comes (or gone) only when you are touching the pot, then it is a sign that it is not grounded properly. But given it doesn't seems to be the case, and the fact that the PCB is already grounded to the housing, I doubt it is of any significant.


 
 agreed - also not likely given that it's only one channel - I wonder why that plate is there...


----------



## CH23

I think the plate acts as a shield, or indeed as grounding for the potmeter. We'll see soon enough.


----------



## CH23

It now seems not to originate from the E12 at all, but from my IEMs. Depending on how i hold my left IEM, there's a buzz/hum in my right one.

Time to get the warranty checked.


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> It now seems not to originate from the E12 at all, but from my IEMs. Depending on how i hold my left IEM, there's a buzz/hum in my right one.
> 
> Time to get the warranty checked.


 
  
 Detachable cables? Maybe your IEM and cable contacts need cleaning


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> Detachable cables? Maybe your IEM and cable contacts need cleaning




They aren't supposed to be detachable


----------



## Ekul61

I have the e-12... is the e-12diy alot better in sound quality. X5. X3. He-400 grado60


----------



## Ekul61

I have the e-12... is the e-12diy alot better in sound quality. X5. X3. He-400 grado60


----------



## toears

? they are not the same products. no DIY, so it's a relative question you ask.


----------



## Ekul61

Not sure what u mean.... but the question is.. I have the fiio e12.... is the e12diy model a big upgrade from the basic e12...


----------



## Loquah

I was able to pick up a MUSES01 from a local Head-Fier and I'm loving the sound quality. My only concern is that it might be a little lean sounding. Can anyone tell me how the MUSES02 compares in terms of warmth to the OPA627?
  
 What I'd love is something smack in the middle of OPA627 and MUSES01. I'm hoping to receive my OPA827 from ClieOS's build thread today so perhaps that will fit the bill, but the sheer quality of the MUSES01 will be hard to beat!


----------



## ClieOS

Lean will be the opposite of what I'll expect from MUSES01. Are you or the other guy 100% sure about the authenticity of the opamp?


----------



## Loquah

Perhaps I'm using the wrong term, but it sounds close (in signature) to the NJM5532 (but not the same). Are you saying the 01 should be lush? I thought the 02 was the lush one


----------



## ClieOS

MUSES01 to me have a rather thick, smooth and well textured sound. I'll describe it as being musical and analog rather than being lean.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> MUSES01 to me have a rather thick, smooth and well textured sound. I'll describe it as being musical and analog rather than being lean.


 
  
 The OPA827 arrived (thank you) and I'm switching back and forth now.
  
 The OPA627 is the "thickest" sounding of the three with creamy lush mids and plenty of mid-bass (all in a good way). The OPA827 sounds a little more open and breathy, but still mid-centric to my ears and with a slight mid bass push similar to the OPA627. The MUSES01 still has excellent bass and mids, but with more sense of treble extension and clarity. Perhaps I was just too used to the lushness of the OPA627 and that made the MUSES01 sound lean. Listening to it again now it just sounds natural and organic - musical and analog as you say.
  
 I doubt it is fake as the seller bought it from a reputable dealer (can't recall now which one, but I was very skeptical so checked carefully before buying) and it is easily on par with or superior to the OPA627/827.
  
 On related matters, thanks again for the OPA827, ClieOS - I think I slightly prefer it to the OPA627 because of the extra openness in the sound.


----------



## ClieOS

Just give them a few more days and see which one comes out on top for you. I am settling with OPA827 most of the time these days.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Just give them a few more days and see which one comes out on top for you. I am settling with OPA827 most of the time these days.


 
  
 Really? Over the MUSES01? What is your most frequently used 'phone with the setup? I'm currently using SE846s so they benefit from the spaciousness of the MUSES01 presentation and they have plenty of bass so the warmth of the OPAx27s is nice, but not needed per se


----------



## ClieOS

I don't stick to any one particular headphone, so there isn't much concern on getting the right synergy but more on getting the right balance.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> I don't stick to any one particular headphone, so there isn't much concern on getting the right synergy but more on getting the right balance.


 
  
 So does that mean that you prefer the slight mid-range emphasis of the OPA827 or is it something else?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> So does that mean that you prefer the slight mid-range emphasis of the OPA827 or is it something else?


 
  
 I like that it for having a good balance between detail and smoothness.


----------



## Loquah

I'm beginning to think I should just ask you before I buy anything, ClieOS. You're spot on again!

The MUSES01 is undoubtedly excellent, but the OPA827 has a naturalness and weight to it that's really enjoyable.

The MUSES01 reminds me of an improved OPA1611 while OPA827 is an improved OPA627 to my ears


----------



## toears

And when will I have mine back?  my first amp, but geez I hear and feel the difference. I miss it!


----------



## funkforfood

I was wondering if it is possible to bypass the buffer in this amp...


----------



## beyerdude

loquah said:


> I'm beginning to think I should just ask you before I buy anything, ClieOS. You're spot on again!
> 
> The MUSES01 is undoubtedly excellent, but the OPA827 has a naturalness and weight to it that's really enjoyable.
> 
> The MUSES01 reminds me of an improved OPA1611 while OPA827 is an improved OPA627 to my ears


 
 Ironically I have the 827, 627 and muses01 sitting here and have had a head cold from hell for the last 3 days!! - my initial impressions are similar from very quick comparisons but anything more than 10 minutes just plain hurts I love the organic richness/smoothness of the Muses, but I am not sure whether the pairing is ideal with my HD600 - need to spend more time with them......I also have a pair of Soundmagic HP200 on loan from the local distributor so double irony that I can't actually spend any time listening to them at all!


----------



## ClieOS

funkforfood said:


> I was wondering if it is possible to bypass the buffer in this amp...


 
  
 You can. All you need is two jumper wire. However, unless we are talking about using AD8297 as opamp, bypassing the buffer will only result in performance degradation as most opamp are not good at driving any load directly


----------



## TonyVier

Today I tried my Koss ksc 75 on my E12DIY, still with AD8620 and LME49600 (MUSES01 on the way) and wow. What a nice airy sound, and wonderful soundstage. After listening to the Koss for a while the Grado 325's and TDK BA200 sound dull. 

So, my MUSES01 and UM Miracles are on the way, and I am sort of scared, the Koss will win anyway. 

Just the mood of the day.


----------



## waynes world

Those damned giant killer ksc75's lol


----------



## funkforfood

clieos said:


> You can. All you need is two jumper wire. However, unless we are talking about using AD8297 as opamp, bypassing the buffer will only result in performance degradation as most opamp are not good at driving any load directly


 
  
 I was thinking of trying in conjunction with my beyer dt880 (250ohm), sometimes less is more...


----------



## Ekul61

Would it be fare to say... that you diy owners are getting alot better sound out of your diy e12 .. compared to the basic non diy owners e12


----------



## toears

ekul61 said:


> Would it be fare to say... that you diy owners are getting alot better sound out of your diy e12 .. compared to the basic non diy owners e12


 
 Don't know. It can be true if the amp and buffer combination is right, DIY gives the freedom to change the sound signature to many variations.
  
 Does that make sense ?


----------



## Ekul61

toears said:


> Don't know. It can be true if the amp and buffer combination is right, DIY gives the freedom to change the sound signature to many variations.
> 
> Does that make sense ?


yes and no.i think the basic model sounds good.. just not as clean as going straight through my x5.. I would love a little more power without loosing the very clean sound of thhe x5


----------



## toears

you talked yourself into it then   with a e12 diy you can roll a lot of amps and in thatway find a signature you like. Variations combined with music styles are endless.  Have you found a place to buy a e12diy ?


----------



## Ekul61

toears said:


> you talked yourself into it then   with a e12 diy you can roll a lot of amps and in thatway find a signature you like. Variations combined with music styles are endless.  Have you found a place to buy a e12diy ?


yes amazon has them new... either a typo or fiio is still selling


----------



## CH23

My E12DIY has been making "weird" noises when charging since 2 days ago: 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q93t3g6xc6i71mq/Video%2005-09-14%2000%2035%2010.mov?dl=0

this concerns me, and i wonder what it is.

I've tried another cable, and another charger, neither of these made a difference.

I'm using one of those "european" apple usb chargers.


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> My E12DIY has been making "weird" noises when charging since 2 days ago:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/q93t3g6xc6i71mq/Video%2005-09-14%2000%2035%2010.mov?dl=0
> 
> ...


 
  
 Does the noise come out of the HPO (i.e. headphones plugged into the amp) or does the whole amp make the noise with nothing but the charger plugged in?


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> Does the noise come out of the HPO (i.e. headphones plugged into the amp) or does the whole amp make the noise with nothing but the charger plugged in?




This is without anything connected, and the amp turned off.

It just stopped, so it seems to have to do with a "quick chqrge" charging before going onto "trickle charging" (i speculate?)


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> This is without anything connected, and the amp turned off.
> 
> It just stopped, so it seems to have to do with a "quick chqrge" charging before going onto "trickle charging" (i speculate?)


 
  
 Still seems weird that it makes any kind of noise??


----------



## beyerdude

I


ekul61 said:


> Would it be fare to say... that you diy owners are getting alot better sound out of your diy e12 .. compared to the basic non diy owners e12


 
 I would say there is a lot more scope to match your headphones to the best combination of buffer/opamp - for example I have finally found a stunning combination for my HD600/HD800 - LME49600 and Muses 01 - just incredible  - but it doesn't sound so great with my IEM's due to the LME49600 being better matched to higher impedance headphones. The HA5002 with opa627 sound great with my iems....The Muses01 with HA5002 sounded flat and lifeless with the HD600 - so many combinations it's almost as fun as valve rolling


----------



## Ekul61

beyerdude said:


> I
> I would say there is a lot more scope to match your headphones to the best combination of buffer/opamp - for example I have finally found a stunning combination for my HD600/HD800 - LME49600 and Muses 01 - just incredible  - but it doesn't sound so great with my IEM's due to the LME49600 being better matched to higher impedance headphones. The HA5002 with opa627 sound great with my iems....The Muses01 with HA5002 sounded flat and lifeless with the HD600 - so many combinations it's almost as fun as valve rolling


I think tour talking me into buying one.. sounds like a good match for my x5 and hifiman 400


----------



## beyerdude

ekul61 said:


> I think tour talking me into buying one.. sounds like a good match for my x5 and hifiman 400


 
  


ekul61 said:


> I think tour talking me into buying one.. sounds like a good match for my x5 and hifiman 400


 
 If you can still get them I would go for it - just be prepared to spend extra money on opamp/buffer combinations  saying that I have found good combinations with the stock for all of my headphones. -


----------



## Ekul61

Is this the forum where a person gets the imfo about where to buy opamps ans buffers


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> Is this the forum where a person gets the imfo about where to buy opamps ans buffers


 
  
 Google them: Mouser, digikey, element14, RS components


----------



## Ekul61

clieos said:


> Google them: Mouser, digikey, element14, RS components


thx sounds like a learning curve needed if u own the diye12


----------



## toears

ekul61 said:


> thx sounds like a learning curve needed if u own the diye12




Investing in a e12diy is great value for money. Out of the box it's an improvement. Learn at your own pace.


----------



## Ekul61

toears said:


> Investing in a e12diy is great value for money. Out of the box it's an improvement. Learn at your own pace.


thx I was having trouble finding anyone that said... the diy is better than the basic model
As said I have owned 2 e12.. like them alot..but if I can get better im wanting to try


----------



## Ekul61

New diy owner.. what is a popular purchase for the diy. Everyone talks about the muse.. Could a experienced amp swapper tell me some good stuff to buy and where... thx.


----------



## Ekul61

You guys are killing me... Just bought a DIY and a muses 01. And 02... I hope this sounds better than my basic e-12....


----------



## nmatheis

ekul61 said:


> You guys are killing me... Just bought a DIY and a muses 01. And 02... I hope this sounds better than my basic e-12....




Damn straight, it will!


----------



## Ekul61

nmatheis said:


> Damn straight, it will!


thx just needed some reinforcement that it was not a waist of $400 skins


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> thx just needed some reinforcement that it was not a waist of $400 skins


 
  
 No need to worry. You're in portable summit-fi type sound with that combo.


----------



## Ekul61

loquah said:


> No need to worry. You're in portable summit-fi type sound with that combo.


thx. Will be used with he-400 and fiio x5


----------



## Ekul61

Just received my DIY.. Seems a little confusing.. Is there better instructions elsewhere. And how to you know. Which amp is which...


----------



## Loquah

Each op amp or buffer is labelled on the chip itself. You might need a bright light and/or magnifying glass to read it though.

The buffers go in the pair of sockets furthest from the volume knob. The op amps go in the single socket closest to the volume knob.

All of the sockets have a small cut-out at one end. There is a similar marking on each op amp / buffer. You need to orient the chips so that the markings on the chips are at the same end as the cut-outs on the sockets.

Look back through this thread (I think) for a great diagram from ClieOS about chip markings.


----------



## Ekul61

loquah said:


> Each op amp or buffer is labelled on the chip itself. You might need a bright light and/or magnifying glass to read it though.
> 
> The buffers go in the pair of sockets furthest from the volume knob. The op amps go in the single socket closest to the volume knob.
> 
> ...


thx.. I will have a few more questions.. thx for your help


----------



## Loquah

No worries. Ask away, but also look back through the thread (or use the search thread function) as there's lots of great discussion and op amp/buffer comparison here already too.


----------



## Ekul61

I have 30 min of listening with stock parts.. im real close to saying it already sounds better than my basic e12


----------



## Loquah

Awesome. It should!


----------



## Lad27

Anyone here seen the inside of the stock E12?
  
 I'd like to find out how the amps and buffers are soldered, or in other words I'm trying to find out what case are the chips (SMD, thru-hole, SOIC etc). I'm toying with an idea of replacing stock amps and buffers with something different. Not clear whether there's enough space for adapters. 
  
 Cheers.


----------



## ClieOS

lad27 said:


> Anyone here seen the inside of the stock E12?
> 
> I'd like to find out how the amps and buffers are soldered, or in other words I'm trying to find out what case are the chips (SMD, thru-hole, SOIC etc). I'm toying with an idea of replacing stock amps and buffers with something different. Not clear whether there's enough space for adapters.
> 
> Cheers.


 
  
 Both are SMD. The opamp are SOIC8 and the buffer are TO-263. You might be able to replace the opamp but the buffer won't be easy, even with a heat gun, given the metal back plate is also soldered onto the PCB and packed very tightly with other components surrounding it.
  
 Here is just the front with the buffer. Opamp are on the side of the PCB, with no room for any adapter.


----------



## Lad27

Thanks a lot. One can always rely on Head-Fi to get info.


----------



## AN94Master

I use the x5 with the momentum. Will attaching an e12 make any noticeable difference?(I mainly listen to 24 bit FLAC). I was eyeing the e12 mainly because of the bass boost.


----------



## CH23

an94master said:


> I use the x5 with the momentum. Will attaching an e12 make any noticeable difference?(I mainly listen to 24 bit FLAC). I was eyeing the e12 mainly because of the bass boost.




Yes it will make a difference, however, the E12DIY doesn't have bass boost or crossfeed, due to the space needed for replacable buffers and opamps.

Of course, you can have a bassboost depending on which opamd and buffers you'll use.


----------



## LeeU

Hi, 
 First post here as a nob, been lurking for weeks learning from you guys. Thanks
Question, the Musee 02 01 are dual amps so I buy one of each and plug them directly into the e12 diy with no adapter correct?


----------



## Audio Reiner

leeu said:


> Hi,
> First post here as a nob, been lurking for weeks learning from you guys. Thanks
> Question, the Musee 02 01 are dual amps so I buy one of each and plug them directly into the e12 diy with no adapter correct?


 
 Jep, correct!


----------



## LeeU

Thanks, one more question buffers, I will need two browndog adapters with two 5002 buffers soldered on the bottom of the browndog


----------



## ClieOS

leeu said:


> Thanks, one more question buffers, I will need two browndog adapters with two 5002 buffers soldered on the bottom of the browndog


 
  
 Yes, and don't forget to put some tape over the top of the adapter to insulate them before mounting.


----------



## Ekul61

clieos said:


> Yes, and don't forget to put some tape over the top of the adapter to insulate them before mounting.


are these buffers that sound better than the suppled ones


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> are these buffers that sound better than the suppled ones


 
  
 It depends on the opamp you are pairing it with. But most of the time I do prefer HA-5002 over the stock.


----------



## Ekul61

What are the blank pieces in the amp box on the back side of the foam insert used for. Thx


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> What are the blank pieces in the amp box on the back side of the foam insert used for. Thx


 
  
 For the use of mounting SOIC8 opamp / buffer or TO263 buffer and use them on the E12DIY of course, which is quintessentially the 'DIY' portion of the E12DIY.


----------



## LeeU

Thanks for all the help, got my case milled today, should clear about any amp I put in. Left .022" or .550mm for wall thickness, milled .900" from the end down into the case,from the outside edge milled from .45" to .925"


----------



## LeeU




----------



## Ekul61

leeu said:


>


nice job what tool did u use ?


----------



## LeeU

Got my HA9P5002 buffers and my OPA627, OPA827 soldered up, enjoying the 627/5002 combo a lot, will switch to the 827 latter, can't waite for the Muses02 to get here now that my case is machined. Thanks for helping me out folks, I have learned a lot from lurking here.


----------



## LeeU

My machinest used a .200" end mill in a Haus mill.


----------



## LeeU

Sorry, no idea why im double posting


----------



## LeeU

Was wondering if anyone has tried the new MUSES8832 that came out on the 11th of this month?


----------



## LeeU

Sorry for so many question: would there be any sound quality benefits to mounting LM9600 or LM49610 buffers to Browndog adapters so as to directly compare to my Browndog mounted 5002's


----------



## ClieOS

leeu said:


> Was wondering if anyone has tried the new MUSES8832 that came out on the 11th of this month?


 
  
 MUSES8832 can not be used on E12DIY. In fact, you can't even use it on a dual battery cmoy because how low a voltage it runs.
  
  


leeu said:


> Sorry for so many question: would there be any sound quality benefits to mounting LM9600 or LM49610 buffers to Browndog adapters so as to directly compare to my Browndog mounted 5002's


 
  
 That will be absolutely pointless.


----------



## Ekul61

clieos said:


> For the use of mounting SOIC8 opamp / buffer or TO263 buffer and use them on the E12DIY of course, which is quintessentially the 'DIY' portion of the E12DIY.


im quessing these are after market amps and buffers.? That sound better than the parts includes with the diy


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> im quessing these are after market amps and buffers.? That sound better than the parts includes with the diy


 
  
 Well, everyone has his/her opinion of 'better' opamp and buffer, and most have been discussed in this thread.


----------



## Ekul61

What ive read the muse 1 2 are a favorite


----------



## LeeU

Main reason I was suggesting the buffers on the browndog was I hate pulling 16 pins at once


----------



## ClieOS

leeu said:


> Main reason I was suggesting the buffers on the browndog was I hate pulling 16 pins at once


 
  
 Well, LME49600 / 49610 only comes in TO-263 package and there isn't any BrownDog adapter that can take a TO-263. Not to mention the adapter also help to disperse heat.
  
 If you really hate pulling all 16 pins at once that much, you can always cut the adapter in the middle and turns it into two adapters.


----------



## LeeU

Client, 
Your brilliant on the cutting the boards in half, thanks. 
Lee


----------



## Ekul61

You guys know alot about juggling the amp around, soldering, the capacitors, and alot of other stuff... Is this imformation only available through this forum..


----------



## ClieOS

These are mostly common knowledge to those who visit forum that discuss audio and DIY, not just limited to HF. If you want to learn soldering, youtube actually has some good demo videos. As for the general info on DIY and audio, go to the DIY subforum and start searching for the older thread.


----------



## LeeU

ClieOS
 I was reading up on buffers, I read good things about the LME49990, the pinouts on the 1 and 3 seem reversed, is this correct, what do you think of this buffer? Can we adapt it to the e12 diy?
Thanks,
Lee


----------



## Ekul61

Purchased a muses 01.. it doesnt have the white ring .used to know what position to mount it... how do you mount it. Thx


----------



## LeeU

My Muses02 is on the FedEx truck coming from Mouser, Wish he would get here already, haha as I was typing I herd a knock lol, gotta go


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> Purchased a muses 01.. it doesnt have the white ring .used to know what position to mount it... how do you mount it. Thx


 
  
 There should be a stamped indentation (circular) at one end of the chip (on the top surface). The indentation goes at the same end as the cutout on the socket


----------



## Ekul61

loquah said:


> There should be a stamped indentation (circular) at one end of the chip (on the top surface). The indentation goes at the same end as the cutout on the socket


thx


----------



## ClieOS

leeu said:


> ClieOS
> I was reading up on buffers, I read good things about the LME49990, the pinouts on the 1 and 3 seem reversed, is this correct, what do you think of this buffer? Can we adapt it to the e12 diy?
> Thanks,
> Lee


 
  
 LME49990 is not a buffer. It is an opamp. You can design a circuit to use opamp as buffer, but it won't actually be any better than a real buffer. In this case, I see no reason to use LME49990 as buffer, especially since its output capability is only about 1/10 of the stock buffer in E12DIY. That's more like downgrade than anything.
  
 There are only two buffers that work in E12DIY besides the stock, the LT1010 and HA-5002.


----------



## Ekul61

Many posts say the muses1 sojnds the best. Fill me in on why all the soldering. Amp changin. Ect... in most cases. Wouldnt it be best to just plug a muses 01 in and be done with it..


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> Many posts say the muses1 sojnds the best. Fill me in on why all the soldering. Amp changin. Ect... in most cases. Wouldnt it be best to just plug a muses 01 in and be done with it..


 
  
 Will you eat the most popular food in town, ignoring whether you like it or not?
 Will you buy the most popular car in the market, ignoring whether it will fit your need or budget?
  
 Sometime it is easy and safe to stick to the popular choice and opinion, while other time it is more fun and satisfied to find out what you actually like, or not.


----------



## LeeU

Like me,I read how a lot of people liked the OPA627 HA-5002 combo, I didn't like it, started looking for different buffers, I then got the Muses02 and now I like the HA-5002's a lot, have the OPA827, a few say they like that combo as well, I have it soldered up and ready to go, but I'm content with the 02/5002 combo, it's all in your ears, not to mention I'm scared to death to try and remove the 02 due to those legs.


----------



## Audio Reiner

My favorite combo is the Muses01 and the HA-5002. I prefer the 01 because I love the more natural sound.


----------



## Ekul61

audio reiner said:


> My favorite combo is the Muses01 and the HA-5002. I prefer the 01 because I love the more natural sound.


could u tell where to purchase the 5002 and do u solder this to a adapter. If so do u have to buy a adapter thx


----------



## nmatheis

To continue the food analogy, swapping Opamps and buffers is like choosing food and drink. Do you want the same food and drink all the time, or would you prefer to switch it up to suit your mood?


----------



## Ekul61

Ive not changed buffers... do they change the sound?


----------



## HiFlight

ekul61 said:


> could u tell where to purchase the 5002 and do u solder this to a adapter. If so do u have to buy a adapter thx




The HA5002 is available from Digi-Key. It is an SOIC case style and needs to be soldered to an SOIC>DIP adapter. You will need custom adapters as the HA5002 has non-standard pin basing. These are available from iBasso or Brown Dog.


----------



## Ekul61

hiflight said:


> The HA5002 is available from Digi-Key. It is an SOIC case style and needs to be soldered to an SOIC>DIP adapter. You will need custom adapters as the HA5002 has non-standard pin basing. These are available from iBasso or Brown Dog.


Thx. What kind of improvement did you think the 5002 did? Clearity, bass, treble


----------



## fzman

hiflight said:


> The HA5002 is available from Digi-Key. It is an SOIC case style and needs to be soldered to an SOIC>DIP adapter. You will need custom adapters as the HA5002 has non-standard pin basing. These are available from iBasso or Brown Dog.


 
 just searched the (US) Digikey website for HA5002 or HA-5002 ---  no matches found!


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> Thx. What kind of improvement did you think the 5002 did? Clearity, bass, treble


 
  
 It's more about the presentation I think. For example, BUF634 is intimate and thick while LME49860 is thinner and more spacious - almost stretches the sound out to each side. The 5002 strikes a really nice balance between the two with a more open sound than BUF634 and more natural note weight than 49860
  


fzman said:


> just searched the (US) Digikey website for HA5002 or HA-5002 ---  no matches found!


 
  
 Yeah, technically you need HA9P5002 (same as HA5002, but different package)


----------



## ClieOS

fzman said:


> just searched the (US) Digikey website for HA5002 or HA-5002 ---  no matches found!


 
  
  


loquah said:


> Yeah, technically you need HA9P5002 (same as HA5002, but different package)


 
  
 Technically HA9P5002 is the official part's number of HA-5002 in SOIC. You won't find HA-5002 as "HA-5002" normally, as most list it with part number instead of its common name. It comes in 2 flavours: 5Z and 9Z - just get the cheaper one of the two as they perform identically.


----------



## fzman

Thanks to everybody for the info on the 5002s.


----------



## Ekul61

fzman said:


> Thanks to everybody for the info on the 5002s.


where are u going to buy your adapter piece from? What is the part number? Thx


----------



## fzman

I am not sure I am going to even try the 5002 - I was just trying to check them out.  I am happy with the 49600 as buffer, and an dip-8 njm2068 opamp for now.  i may try a Muses, but not sure whether I'll do FET or bipolar, and which series.....


----------



## Ekul61

What is the favorite stock buffer to go with the muses 1 and 2.


----------



## LeeU

I have Sennheiser HD 598 50 ohm Headphones, I know there are a lot better out there, I will buy another set eventually. From what I can understand an output impendence of 10 ohms is unfavorable for any headphones with lower than 80 ohms - the formula being, headphones requiring at least 8 times the output impendence of the source. My question is has anyone tried the Buf634 or LM49600 with the resistor to go to high 180Mhz bandwidth? I know even 30Mhz is thousand times more than enough for audio app but I'm wondering if would work for increased quiescent current through the BUF634's output stage associated with this mode. This is claimed to decrease distortion in lower power headphones such as the HD 598's. Any advice
Thanks,
Lee


----------



## LeeU

What is the max voltage going to the buffer? 
Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

leeu said:


> What is the max voltage going to the buffer?
> Thanks


 
  
 +/- 11V, or 22V.


----------



## Ekul61

When you buy the 5002 buffer and brown dog adapter. Do you only need one of each?


----------



## LeeU

So 11 volts to each buffer *2 buffers= 22 volts max? 
Thanks, 
Lee


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> When you buy the 5002 buffer and brown dog adapter. Do you only need one of each?


 
  
 Two of each = two HA-5002 and two BrownDog adapters, with one chip mounted on one adapter. you* CAN NOT* mount two HA-5002 on a single adapter as it just won't fit inside E12DIY. Please search back the thread on how to properly mount HA-5002 so it will work in E12DIY.
  
  


leeu said:


> So 11 volts to each buffer *2 buffers= 22 volts max?
> Thanks,
> Lee


 
  
 Err.. no, not that way.
  
 +/-11V means the two voltage rail are +11V and -11V, with a combined 22V swing. The same voltage rails supply both buffer and opamp.


----------



## Ekul61

clieos said:


> Two of each = two HA-5002 and two BrownDog adapters, with one chip mounted on one adapter. you *CAN NOT* mount two HA-5002 on a single adapter as it just won't fit inside E12DIY. Please search back the thread on how to properly mount HA-5002 so it will work in E12DIY.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


just ordered the parts.. going to take them to local electronic shop to solder. Is there something special they need to kn ow


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> just ordered the parts.. going to take them to local electronic shop to solder. Is there something special they need to kn ow


 
  
 Yes. The chips need to be soldered onto the underside of the adapters between the pins (there are contacts on the top and the bottom)


----------



## Ekul61

loquah said:


> Yes. The chips need to be soldered onto the underside of the adapters between the pins (there are contacts on the top and the bottom)


just to be clear. Are u saying I need to tell the 
Tech to make sure he solders to the bottom side? Thx


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> just to be clear. Are u saying I need to tell the
> Tech to make sure he solders to the bottom side? Thx


 
  
 Yes. If they didn't know they would probably solder it to the top because it's easier, but that will not fit inside the DIY casing so you must tell them to solder to the bottom of the adapter


----------



## nmatheis

loquah said:


> Yes. If they didn't know they would probably solder it to the top because it's easier, but that will not fit inside the DIY casing so you must tell them to solder to the bottom of the adapter




There are pics earlier in the thread. Take a look .


----------



## Ekul61

Thx. For the imfo.


----------



## Loquah

I received an upgraded cable for my SE846s yesterday and was sad to find that the HA9P5002 / OPA827 combo creates hum with the upgraded cable (it's fine with the stock cable). Does anyone have any idea how I might be able to get around this? I posted a while back on the various op amp / buffer combos that did / didn't create hum, but can't work out why.
  
 Thankfully, the HA9P5002 / MUSES01 combo is silent and awesome, but I think I slightly prefer the OPA827 so would like that to be an option if at all possible.


----------



## Audio Reiner

loquah said:


> I received an upgraded cable for my SE846s yesterday and was sad to find that the HA9P5002 / OPA827 combo creates hum with the upgraded cable (it's fine with the stock cable). Does anyone have any idea how I might be able to get around this? I posted a while back on the various op amp / buffer combos that did / didn't create hum, but can't work out why.
> 
> Thankfully, the HA9P5002 / MUSES01 combo is silent and awesome, but I think I slightly prefer the OPA827 so would like that to be an option if at all possible.


 
 I have no solution for the hum problem. I have only a question. I also use the the HA5002/Muses01 combo and I'm glad so far. But of course, I'm searching for alternative combos when they fit my taste. Can you describe the sound difference between the Muses01 and the OPA827? And is a adapter neccessary?


----------



## Loquah

audio reiner said:


> I have no solution for the hum problem. I have only a question. I also use the the HA5002/Muses01 combo and I'm glad so far. But of course, I'm searching for alternative combos when they fit my taste. Can you describe the sound difference between the Muses01 and the OPA827? And is a adapter neccessary?




827 does require an adapter and a pair of chips. Sound-wise it is more mid-centric than MUSES01 with good note weight and excellent detail. It's not as warm as the 627. The MUSES01 is slightly cleaner sounding whereas the 827 is a touch warmer than neutral. It'd be hard to choose between the 2, but prior to the hum the 827 was my preferred choice.


----------



## Audio Reiner

loquah said:


> 827 does require an adapter and a pair of chips. Sound-wise it is more mid-centric than MUSES01 with good note weight and excellent detail. It's not as warm as the 627. The MUSES01 is slightly cleaner sounding whereas the 827 is a touch warmer than neutral. It'd be hard to choose between the 2, but prior to the hum the 827 was my preferred choice.


 
 Thank you for this sound description. I'm looking forward to buy 2 OPA827 and the neccessary adapters now.


----------



## K.T.

Out of curiosity, has anyone had experience with the OPA134?
  
 It came to my attention because this fairly new portable headphone amplifier has been getting some pretty rave reviews, and it uses the OPA134:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/729545/the-new-cayin-c5-portable-power-house
  
 It's called the Cayin C5.
  
 Incidentally, it also uses the LME49600 buffer, which I believe is included in the E12DIY kit.
  
 Not a whole lot of direct comparison with the E12DIY on that thread, but it seems a number of folks there prefer the Cayin to the standard FiiO E12 (which uses OPA1611 + the same LME49600 buffer, btw).
  
 Anyone tried the OPA134? I'm not even sure if it's a direct drop in or not. But if so, it might be worth a shot.


----------



## Ekul61

Cant seem to keep the same treble clarity out of my fiio x5 when I hook the diy to it. Yes I do get a warmer sound, but its at the expense of less treble.Which amp combo will maintain the same treble clarity the x5 has?


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> Anyone tried the OPA134? I'm not even sure if it's a direct drop in or not. But if so, it might be worth a shot.


 
  
 Even heard of OPA2134, which has been widely used since the day Chu Moy put one into his first portable headphone amp some 16 yrs ago and basically jump started a new market? Yes, the same thing - just that OPA134 is the single channel version of OPA2134.
  
 TI may have rebranded OPA134 series under the SoundPlus series recently, but it is still the same old wine in a new bottle. Using OPA134 is likely walking backward at this point.


----------



## Ekul61

Cant seem to keep the same treble clarity out of my fiio x5 when I hook the diy to it. Yes I do get a warmer sound, but its at the expense of less treble.Which amp combo will maintain the same treble clarity the x5 has?


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> Cant seem to keep the same treble clarity out of my fiio x5 when I hook the diy to it. Yes I do get a warmer sound, but its at the expense of less treble.Which amp combo will maintain the same treble clarity the x5 has?


 
  
 What interconnect, op amp and buffer are you using?


----------



## Ekul61

Silver straight cable. I think it came with it the diy. But not sure.. muse1 . Lm4960.... just put in muse 2 and 6321. Watcha think.


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> Silver straight cable. I think it came with it the diy. But not sure.. muse1 . Lm4960.... just put in muse 2 and 6321. Watcha think.


 
  
 My first thought if you're losing clarity vs the X5 is that something is causing a bottleneck - possibly the interconnect, but if you're using the silver one that came with the FiiO HS6 stacking kit (it's silver-plated copper) then it should be OK. Have you tried the MUSES01 with the BUF634? Alternatively, you might want to try the HA9P5002 if you can get some or if not, the LME49600 + OPA1611 combo (supplied in the stock op amp kit) is very clean.
  
 Also, what earphones / headphones are you listening with?


----------



## ClieOS

If you have more warmth, of course you will lose some treble clarity - and no, I am not talking about E12DY lossing clarity, but your ability to focus on different thing at the same time, as a human. You are simply overwhelmed by the present of more information that you can listen at the same time, which is perfectly normal IMO.


----------



## manualvin

Just managed to pry open my fiio e12diy casing after my fingernails started growing back longer. Broke my fingernails before.
  
 Tested both OPA827 and AD8599.
  
 I must say i enjoyed AD8599 more and have that in my Fiio E12DIY. But i believe there is slightly more noise in the backdrop and i really enjoyed tracks as it seemed to have a bigger soundstage in comparison. I only did about 20 mins with OPA 827 before AD 8599 then switching back to 827 before i realized i prefer AD8599.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Ekul61

loquah said:


> My first thought if you're losing clarity vs the X5 is that something is causing a bottleneck - possibly the interconnect, but if you're using the silver one that came with the FiiO HS6 stacking kit (it's silver-plated copper) then it should be OK. Have you tried the MUSES01 with the BUF634? Alternatively, you might want to try the HA9P5002 if you can get some or if not, the LME49600 + OPA1611 combo (supplied in the stock op amp kit) is very clean.
> 
> Also, what earphones / headphones are you listening with?


yes the one with the stacking kit... I will try the amp combo.. thx for your advice.


----------



## Ekul61

And using hm he400i.. they are a little bass weak. So treble fluctuation is noticeable


----------



## LeeU

If I wanted to experiment putting the Buf634/LME49600 in high bandwidth mode would Vishay RN 55 1/10 watt .1% resistors be large enough to activate BW to Vee pins or would a 1/4 watt be better? Was thinking of experimenting with 220 ohm and 330 ohm resistors on both the 634 and 49600.
Thanks,
Lee


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> And using hm he400i.. they are a little bass weak. So treble fluctuation is noticeable


 
  
 It sounds like it's just a case of finding the right op amp and buffer combo then because the DIY should be a slight improvement on the X5. 1 other thing to consider is that you're matching the volumes closely between the DIY and X5 - if you're accidentally leaving the DIY at a slightly lower volume you may be perceiving less dynamics in the sound.


----------



## Ekul61

Do u use a soldering iron or a heat gun to solder the 5002 to the adapter. Also I know the amp goes on the bottom. Does it have to be rotated a certain way.


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> Do u use a soldering iron or a heat gun to solder the 5002 to the adapter. Also I know the amp goes on the bottom. Does it have to be rotated a certain way.


 
  
 You will use a heat gun to desolder IC, not to solder them.
  
 Rotate? Don't really know what you are talking about.


----------



## Ekul61

clieos said:


> You will use a heat gun to desolder IC, not to solder them.
> 
> Rotate? Don't really know what you are talking about.


thx so u just put them in place and hit it with a heat gun. ( the one im thinking of is a very hot blowdryer lookinggun? Rotate as in


----------



## Ekul61

Rotate as in ..one postion ..compared a 2nd position with the amp rotated 180 degree compared to position 1.


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> thx so u just put them in place and hit it with a heat gun. ( the one im thinking of is a very hot blowdryer lookinggun? Rotate as in


 
  
 You should learn the right way to solder with a soldering iron, not trying to short cut by pulling out trick with a heat gun. You might get away this time but heatgun can cause more trouble when not used properly.
  


ekul61 said:


> Rotate as in ..one postion ..compared a 2nd position with the amp rotated 180 degree compared to position 1.


 
  
 DON't even do that. You'll just destroy the buffer.
  
 Follow the marking on the adapter and you will be fine.


----------



## Ekul61

clieos said:


> You should learn the right way to solder with a soldering iron, not trying to short cut by pulling out trick with a heat gun. You might get away this time but heatgun can cause more trouble when not used properly.
> 
> 
> DON't even do that. You'll just destroy the buffer.
> ...


I have you tubed smd soldering.. little confusing as they show multiple ways.


----------



## Ekul61

Simply put. I have a little larger soldering experience. Just not sure the techique, correct tool, and correct solder and flux. used to solder small stuff as the 5002 on to the black dog. Does anyone know where I can get this imformation? I have you tubed but the videos vary quite alot. Thanks


----------



## LeeU

All, 
Just got this email from Fiio's. Anyone have any ideas about what to do about buffer adapters? I'm out unfortunately. 
Lee



Dear Lee,

Thanks for your mail and support to FiiO!

Sorry to inform you that, we aren't able to get any E12DIY adapters for the buffers. The E12DIY has been discontinued, besides, our supplier also have no E12DIY adapters, so we can't get any E12DIY adapters for the buffers. 

We have tried the Buf634/LME49600 buffers in high bandwidth mode, a Vishay 1/10 watt resistor is large enough. 
If you have any other question, please feel free to contact us!
Have a nice day! ^_^

Best Regards,
FiiO Customer Service


----------



## ClieOS

leeu said:


> All,
> Just got this email from Fiio's. Anyone have any ideas about what to do about buffer adapters? I'm out unfortunately.
> Lee
> 
> ...


 
  
 Read this: http://www.head-fi.org/t/728607/opamp-adapter-for-fiio-e12diy
  
 I have leftover blank buffer adapter if you want, payment and shipping conditions (listed in 'Extra' section) are the same as thread above.
  
 PM me if you need them.


----------



## LeeU

I know this has been said a few times before, be very careful with your HA9P5002's, I jist fried mine due to a lose cable connection, I have two more on hand and two on the way from Mouser, while I like to try different OP amps and buffers, I think the 5002's are my favorite so I'm bummed. 
Lee


----------



## CH23

leeu said:


> I know this has been said a few times before, be very careful with your HA9P5002's, I jist fried mine due to a lose cable connection, I have two more on hand and two on the way from Mouser, while I like to try different OP amps and buffers, I think the 5002's are my favorite so I'm bummed.
> Lee




Lose cable how? USB, or line in, or hp out?


----------



## LeeU

ch23 said:


> Lose cable how? USB, or line in, or hp out?





Lose output connector, herd a pop and that was it.I was warned, the 49600 buffer is working fine.


----------



## ClieOS

As I have mentioned quite a few times in the past, HA-5002 doesn't have a short circuit output protection to limit its current so care must be taken to ensure it won't run itself to the ground when short-circuited. Be sure to always turn the volume all the way down when plugging in or out the headphone.


----------



## LeeU

Trust me just listen to ClieOS, I learned the hard way. 
Lee


----------



## Ekul61

Hey clieos. Whats your favorite amp buff combo


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> Hey clieos. Whats your favorite amp buff combo


 
  
 NJM5532 + HA-5002 for its neutrality and transparency.
 OPA827 + HA-5002 for its balance between smoothness and detail.
 OPA627 + BUF634 for warmth and smoothness
 MUSES01 + BUF634 for analog like musicality
 MUSES02 + BUF634 for overall versatility


----------



## nmatheis

Thanks ClieOS!


----------



## LeeU

ClieOS, 
Sent you a PM about buffer boards. 
Thanks, 
Lee


----------



## ClieOS

I didn't receive any PM from you. You might need to resend another one.


----------



## LeeU

Nice list of amps, surprised by the Muses/buf634,never tried that?


----------



## Audio Reiner

clieos said:


> NJM5532 + HA-5002 for its neutrality and transparency.
> OPA827 + HA-5002 for its balance between smoothness and detail.
> OPA627 + BUF634 for warmth and smoothness
> MUSES01 + BUF634 for analog like musicality
> MUSES02 + BUF634 for overall versatility




And how do you think about:

MUSES01 + HA-5002 

This is my preferred combo because I like the transparency and the powerful black bass.


----------



## pietcux

Hi I am selling my E12 DIY.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/736385/fiio-e12diy-limited-edition-version-diy-golden-edition


----------



## ClieOS

audio reiner said:


> And how do you think about:
> 
> MUSES01 + HA-5002
> 
> This is my preferred combo because I like the transparency and the powerful black bass.


 
  
 MUSE01 + HA-5002 is fine to my ears. Though I prefer BUF634 for the extra smoothness. It is a personal preference thing, I guess.


----------



## Loquah

Noise problems with the HA-5002 / OPA827 combo have led me to trying a whole bunch of different combos today and I am absolutely loving the BUF634 / OPA827 combo - really organic and smooth, but with piles of detail still - a perfect match for my SE846s!


----------



## toears

Mine came back from repair today. $15 incl. shipping.  Now it's time to try some more combos. In particular the latest mentioned. I'm afarid to ask, since the answers are somwhere on the previous pages. 
  
 Is BUF634 + HA-5002 'plug and listen' ?


----------



## Loquah

toears said:


> Mine came back from repair today. $15 incl. shipping.  Now it's time to try some more combos. In particular the latest mentioned. I'm afarid to ask, since the answers are somwhere on the previous pages.
> 
> Is BUF634 + HA-5002 'plug and listen' ?


 
  
 No - they're both buffers


----------



## toears

-Sorry, I meant MUSES01 + HA-5002


loquah said:


> No - they're both buffers


----------



## K.T.

loquah said:


> Noise problems with the HA-5002 / OPA827 combo have led me to trying a whole bunch of different combos today and I am absolutely loving the BUF634 / OPA827 combo - really organic and smooth, but with piles of detail still - a perfect match for my SE846s!




I'm using the BUF634 /OPA827 combo as well, and it's pretty great. 

Ha, ha... I actually can't open this particular amp far enough to change the buffers, so I figured I'd see what would work best with the the stock BUF634. Out of OPA627, MUSES01, MUSES02, and OPA827, I found the latter most to my liking. The extra air and openness lifted it above the OPA627 for my preference. 

Muses were also both good but a tad on the too warm side, probably because I also prefer slightly warm phones and IEMs as well. 

Again, it's a matter of personal taste. Lucky for us, we have choices with this amp!


----------



## CH23

What are the pro's and cons of using 22uF capacitors vs 2.2 uF capacitors?

And would a lower voltage give a better sensitivity?


----------



## ClieOS

ch23 said:


> What are the pro's and cons of using 22uF capacitors vs 2.2 uF capacitors?
> 
> And would a lower voltage give a better sensitivity?


 
  
 You only need to meet the minimum requirement of capacitance to make sure you don't have any roll-off. You don't want too big a capacitance as bigger capacitance introduces other problem. Many time, it is the material used in the capacitor and its available size that limits your choice. The trick is to find the balance of having a transparent sounding caps that has the right capacitance not to causes roll-off and the right size that it will fit into the circuit / casing.
  
 Not sure what you mean by lower voltage gives better sensitivity - is this still a cap's question? If it is, then the answer is no. I don't think there is any different relationship between them.


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> You only need to meet the minimum requirement of capacitance to make sure you don't have any roll-off. You don't want too big a capacitance as bigger capacitance introduces other problem. Many time, it is the material used in the capacitor and its available size that limits your choice. The trick is to find the balance of having a transparent sounding caps that has the right capacitance not to causes roll-off and the right size that it will fit into the circuit / casing.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by lower voltage gives better sensitivity - is this still a cap's question? If it is, then the answer is no. I don't think there is any different relationship between them.




Right now i have silmic II caps 25v 22uF, should i look for the 0.47uF 50v ones, or 25v 4.7uF? It has a voltage marking on the caps, that's why i ask about voltage.

Maybe that's the max voltage you can "pump" through it?


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> Right now i have silmic II caps 25v 22uF, should i look for the 0.47uF 50v ones, or 25v 4.7uF? It has a voltage marking on the caps, that's why i ask about voltage.
> 
> *Maybe that's the max voltage you can "pump" through it?*


 
  
 Correct. In my experience, higher than stock is of no benefit, but also does no harm


----------



## K.T.

Funny, the volatage rating shouldn't have an effect on the SQ, and apparently doesn't. 

But in other DIY circumstances, components of different ratings have been reported to sound better, or at least different.

I'm thinking specifically of the Audio Note branded tantalum through-hole resistors. Those steeped in their use reported the higher wattage versions offered better sound quality than the lower wattage versions in the same circuit.

Now if you are within your safety margins, you would not expect this to happen. But who knows? There could be some unexpected but explainable mechanism that causes it.

So who knows? I guess it never hurts to ask.


----------



## ClieOS

ch23 said:


> Right now i have silmic II caps 25v 22uF, should i look for the 0.47uF 50v ones, or 25v 4.7uF? It has a voltage marking on the caps, that's why i ask about voltage.
> 
> Maybe that's the max voltage you can "pump" through it?


 
  
 0.47uF will be too small for E12DIY. You do actually need 2.2uF as I have experimented with different capacitance. That should give you a good indication.
  
 Yes, you need the rated voltage to be minimum of the voltage applied. In the case of E12DIY, since they are input caps, any rating above 2V (line level) should be okay. But for safety reason, I'll recommend 6.3V (which is a common voltage for caps). If it is output caps, I'll say you should be 25V minimum, preferably 50V.
  
  


k.t. said:


> Funny, the volatage rating shouldn't have an effect on the SQ, and apparently doesn't.
> 
> But in other DIY circumstances, components of different ratings have been reported to sound better, or at least different.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Resistor is a different story altogether, because how it is constructed and how voltage / current passthrough it, therefore the effect is much more appearance,


----------



## palermo

so, does anyone here put paralel cap for Cin, 0.1uf BG NX maybe..


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> 0.47uF will be too small for E12DIY. You do actually need 2.2uF as I have experimented with different capacitance. That should give you a good indication.
> 
> Yes, you need the rated voltage to be minimum of the voltage applied. In the case of E12DIY, since they are input caps, any rating above 2V (line level) should be okay. But for safety reason, I'll recommend 6.3V (which is a common voltage for caps). If it is output caps, I'll say you should be 25V minimum, preferably 50V.




Previously you recommended SILMIC II caps, but those only come in 50v 2.2uF, this should still be alright then?


----------



## ClieOS

palermo said:


> so, does anyone here put paralel cap for Cin, 0.1uf BG NX maybe..


 
  
 Tried BG NX HiQ in the E12DIY, and as usual, don't find them to be any better than the caps that are still in production and far cheaper.
  


ch23 said:


> Previously you recommended SILMIC II caps, but those only come in 50v 2.2uF, this should still be alright then?


 
  
 Not really, I have Silmic II in 22uF, 25V in my E12DIY and they works just fine. Any of the 6.3mm x 11mm caps will fit without a problem, and the biggest capacitance Silmic II of that size is 47uF, 10V. In fact, the original Wima has a size of 7.2mm x 13mm, anything smaller is fine.
  
 Of course Silmic II 2.2uF 50V is fine as well, though I do recommend going a bit bigger.


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> Tried BG NX HiQ in the E12DIY, and as usual, don't find them to be any better than the caps that are still in production and far cheaper.
> 
> 
> Not really, I have Silmic II in 22uF, 25V in my E12DIY and they works just fine. Any of the 6.3mm x 11mm caps will fit without a problem, and the biggest capacitance Silmic II of that size is 47uF, 10V. In fact, the original Wima has a size of 7.2mm x 13mm, anything smaller is fine.
> ...




Well then that saves me money, as i had 25v 22uF silmic II's after your initial recommendation  thanks for your help. I really need to research this stuff...


----------



## Loquah

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed / answered before, but would someone mind describing the differences / benefits to be had by swapping the Wimas out for Silmics?


----------



## LeeU

I really want to try Some Black Gate NX capacitors, only ones I can find are 6.3 volt but they are 47 uf, would they be to dark sounding


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> I'm pretty sure this has been discussed / answered before, but would someone mind describing the differences / benefits to be had by swapping the Wimas out for Silmics?


 
  
 Film caps, including the Wima here, tends to be very fast and transparent sounding, highly detail on the treble but can be grainy and busy, leaner texture over the lower mid to bass region and have relative shallow / flat in depth. Silmic II will give you about the opposite. Not nearly as fast but much smoother transition, better texture but not as good on micro detail, and has a well rounded soundstage. Overall, it is a more musical presentation.
  


leeu said:


> I really want to try Some Black Gate NX capacitors, only ones I can find are 6.3 volt but they are 47 uf, would they be to dark sounding


 
  
 Be careful of fake BlackGate. Most of the reputable source has ran out of stock years ago and now there are a lot of fake out there due to the hype in its early days.


----------



## LeeU

The company I bought them from is a high end audio store in the US, they bought a lot when they stopped making them, I'm sure they are the real deal, they have a few more to sell if anyone is interested.


----------



## wasabi8tr

Hi,
 does anybody know of any difference between the MUSES1& MUSES2 authentic ones and the fake ones?
 Do they sound soundwise the same as the originals I mean not build quality wise ..
  
 Are the fake ones even of NJR MUSES identical type or are they relabeled and disguised as other OPAMPS inside like some LME,NJM;HA Opamps instead?
  
 What are the risks using fake Opamps? Can they damage the equipment?
  
 I ordered some MUSES02 MUSES01 a week ago but only just noticed that they are retailing at higher prices on other sites.
 I think they might be fake ones bc of the price.
  
 I ordered them for the  ASUS Xonar Essence ST soundcard are there any OPAMP recommendations for this card?
 And what to use as buffers? Some recommend the MUSES with the HA-5002 some say the OPA1611+LME49600 is the better combo.
  
 Where should I insert the MUSES2 on the soundcard?


----------



## ClieOS

wasabi8tr said:


> Hi,
> does anybody know of any difference between the MUSES1& MUSES2 authentic ones and the fake ones?
> Do they sound soundwise the same as the originals I mean not build quality wise ..
> 
> ...


 
  
 Obviously the first thing is that the fake one sounds nothing like the real one, mostly far worst. For the most part you won't do any real damage by using the fake one, except to your wallet. But on rare occasion, it is possible to burn the opamp out when you are pushing for higher voltage (this depends on both how you use it and what fake opmap original are rated for).
  
 Unless you buy them from an authorized dealer, there is a very good chance you will be getting fake.
  
 As for what opamp to use with Xonar Essence ST - that should be asked over at the ST thread, not here.


----------



## wasabi8tr

thank you ClieOS for the fast reply.
 can you recommend me an authorized dealer that ships to Europe/ Netherlands?
 I ordered them from alibaba.  But really have a bad felling they were around 30$ each


----------



## ClieOS

wasabi8tr said:


> thank you ClieOS for the fast reply.
> can you recommend me an authorized dealer that ships to Europe/ Netherlands?
> I ordered them from alibaba.  But really have a bad felling they were around 30$ each


 
  
 Any MUSES from China is 99.99% fake.
  
 You can either order from Mouser.com, or order from akizukidenshi.com via Tenso.com's buying service.


----------



## LeeU

Black GATE NX 6.3 47uF capacitors, I got them from Sonic Craft, they have more. Not cheap $65.00 for 2 and from what I have read between 200 to 500 hrs burn in, that is a long time


----------



## LeeU

Back side, look like the real deal, fake ones just don't look this good.


----------



## Chefano

Some say the best cap is no cap for the output.
 I can state that as well. Measured 0,002V dc loaded at direct coupled output.
 Awesome sound.
  
  
 .


----------



## LeeU

I have read the same thing, but don't you need the capacitors to maintain a constant voltage?


----------



## Chefano

leeu said:


> I have read the same thing, but don't you need the capacitors to maintain a constant voltage?


 
  
 At this circuit part the capacitors are not acting as energy banks, they are acting as filters.
 They are in the signal path, connected to the output, filtering the DC part of the AC signal.
 Regards!


----------



## LeeU

Thanks for helping me understand, trying to learn. 
Respectfully 
Lee


----------



## palermo

@Chefano. Do you have muses02, please take measure dcv on it ? I want to know how kind of input opamp effecting dcv (bipolar/ jfet)


----------



## Loquah

chefano said:


> Some say the best cap is no cap for the output.
> I can state that as well. Measured 0,002V dc loaded at direct coupled output.
> Awesome sound.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So have you just bridged the + and - for each of the cap terminals (i.e. 2 separate bridges, 1 per capacitor slot)? Are there any risks in doing this with noise / voltage spikes, etc?


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> So have you just bridged the + and - for each of the cap terminals (i.e. 2 separate bridges, 1 per capacitor slot)? Are there any risks in doing this with noise / voltage spikes, etc?


 
  
 The caps are input caps, designed to protect from DC offset coming from the source. If you are confident that your source will never have any DC offset, then you don't need them. If there was DC offset however, depends on how big it is, they can go from mildly worsening SQ to burning out the voice coil in your headphone.
  


palermo said:


> @Chefano. Do you have muses02, please take measure dcv on it ? I want to know how kind of input opamp effecting dcv (bipolar/ jfet)


 
  
 The stock OPA1611 is bipolar, AD8610 is JFET, so you don't need MUSES02 for the measurement.


----------



## Chefano

clieos said:


> The caps are input caps, designed to protect from DC offset coming from the source. If you are confident that your source will never have any DC offset, then you don't need them. If there was DC offset however, depends on how big it is, they can go from mildly worsening SQ to burning out the voice coil in your headphone.
> 
> 
> The stock OPA1611 is bipolar, AD8610 is JFET, so you don't need MUSES02 for the measurement.


 
 Actually they are output caps. ( No they are not - Input caps confused the pinouts )


palermo said:


> @Chefano. Do you have muses02, please take measure dcv on it ? I want to know how kind of input opamp effecting dcv (bipolar/ jfet)


 
  
 Palermo I can measure for you, but I don't recommend doing it at all. Even considering you have a DC free input, at low really low frequencies the output can get bad about 0,2V ~ 0,3V.


----------



## Loquah

Why do you say they're output caps, chefano? Have you traced the circuit? ClieOS us a very reliable source when it comes to technical info so I'm torn as to which opinion to believe.


----------



## Chefano

loquah said:


> Why do you say they're output caps, chefano? Have you traced the circuit? ClieOS us a very reliable source when it comes to technical info so I'm torn as to which opinion to believe.


 
 Yes I did. You can check using a mag. lenses or just a multimeter would do the job. The "+" from the caps are connected to the socket output pins. Not the "-" connected to the socket input pins.
 The reason is the same, block DC in the signal.
  
 Regards!


----------



## fzman

chefano said:


> Yes I did. You can check using a mag. lenses or just a multimeter would do the job. The "+" from the caps are connected to the socket output pins. Not the "-" connected to the socket input pins.
> The reason is the same, block DC in the signal.
> 
> Regards!


 
  
 that seems wrong to me...  the + on the cap is its input for coupling duties, and the - would connect to the output jack if it is an output cap.  as an input cap, the + side would be connected to the input jack.


----------



## Chefano

fzman said:


> that seems wrong to me...  the + on the cap is its input for coupling duties, and the - would connect to the output jack if it is an output cap.  as an input cap, the + side would be connected to the input jack.


 
 The capacitor is only to block the DC bias, the ways its oriented is only to keep the the same polarity to the DC part (we don't want to keep the capacitor in reversed polarity despite the fact it can handle for low voltage levels)
 I agree with you if we have a positive value as the power supply, but you can check by yourself on the E12 circuit.
  
 Regards


----------



## Chefano

chefano said:


> The capacitor is only to block the DC bias, the ways its oriented is only to keep the the same polarity to the DC part (we don't want to keep the capacitor in reversed polarity despite the fact it can handle for low voltage levels)
> I agree with you if we have a positive value as the power supply, but you can check by yourself on the E12 circuit.
> 
> Regards


 
 OMG I have to quote myself, they are input caps, so stupid 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Confused the output pinout to input.


----------



## palermo

clieos said:


> The stock OPA1611 is bipolar, AD8610 is JFET, so you don't need MUSES02 for the measurement.







chefano said:


> Actually they are output caps.
> 
> Palermo I can measure for you, but I don't recommend doing it at all. Even considering you have a DC free input, at low really low frequencies the output can get bad about 0,2V ~ 0,3V.




OK. Thx Chefano. According the DCV outcome, it really high without caps. So clear these caps re dc blocking. 
And by doing measurement without caps, I need to ensure, the bipolar opamp is worst producing DCv than JFet opamp. 
Seriously, you cant just show this no caps without clear explanation what type of opamp used. Measurement DCv is must.


----------



## palermo

Oh, my bad. Muses01 is bipolar, muses02 is jfet. do you really done the measurement ?


----------



## Chefano

palermo said:


> Oh, my bad. Muses01 is bipolar, muses02 is jfet. do you really done the measurement ?


 
  
 Palermo, yes I did. Playing back music via X5 line out for 3hs on high gain on a 16 Ohm Z, the maximum DC Ive got was 3 mV.  When playing test tones things got wild, 10Hz 0db sine signal resulted in a 0,3 V DC.
 Thats your call, I don't have any responsibility if you fry your headphone coils. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Regards!


----------



## LeeU

Could someone please tell me which is the line in on the caps front or back from the volume control. thanks


----------



## LeeU

Never mind I see the + in the photo with the caps gone, thanks anyway. 
Lee


----------



## wasabi8tr

Whats the best Opamps combination out there? Can someone explain me what I/V means? And what does buffer mean? Can I put for example a LME49720 in the buffer zone and I/V zone altogether ? Or is the LME49720 designed only as a buffer opamp?  Whats the difference between a J-FET and BI-Polar opamps?
  
 I'm just starting. never done this before.
  
 Thanks in advance!!!


----------



## LeeU

wasabi8tr said:


> Whats the best Opamps combination out there? Can someone explain me what I/V means? And what does buffer mean? Can I put for example a LME49720 in the buffer zone and I/V zone altogether ? Or is the LME49720 designed only as a buffer opamp?  Whats the difference between a J-FET and BI-Polar opamps?
> 
> I'm just starting. never done this before.
> 
> Thanks in advance!!!




I'm just starting too so I know very little, my favorite combo is a muses02 op amp with the ha-5002 buffer, it is hard to say what you will like,all personal preference . Go back and read through ClieOS post, guy knows his stuff.


----------



## LeeU

Question about high bandwidth, on the LME49990 it says you can make the chip go HB by not hooking up the BW pin, will that also work with a BUF634? or is it better to add a resistor between pins BW and v- on the BUF634 or on the LME49990 pins BW and Vee pin which is in the same location on both chips? 
Thanks 
Lee


----------



## ClieOS

palermo said:


> Oh, my bad. Muses01 is bipolar, muses02 is jfet. do you really done the measurement ?


 
  
 Actually I think it is the opposite. MUSE01 is JFET and 02 is bipolar.
  


wasabi8tr said:


> Whats the best Opamps combination out there? Can someone explain me what I/V means? And what does buffer mean? Can I put for example a LME49720 in the buffer zone and I/V zone altogether ? Or is the LME49720 designed only as a buffer opamp?  Whats the difference between a J-FET and BI-Polar opamps?
> 
> I'm just starting. never done this before.
> 
> Thanks in advance!!!


 
  
 Best is really a matter of taste and synergy as much as it is a matter of measurable performance. If we can agree on what opamp and buffer is the best combo, then we don't really need the E12DIY in the first place as we can just ask FiiO to make the E12 with what is considered the best.
  
 I/V means current-to-voltage conversion stage. There is no I/V stage in E12DIY, as I/V is usually found just after DAC. I assume you are still asking question on the Xonar? You can put most opamp into the I/V socket, as long as the voltage rating is compatible. Of course, some opamp perform better than other and it is a matter of trial and error to find out for yourself. LME49720 is not an buffer, but an opamp. It can be used in a buffer stage depends on how the circuit is designed. If you can't tell the difference, I'll recommend you start google / wiki instead of randomly trying. these are not the kind of knowledge that people can explain to you in detail over one post. For now, you should stick to the default configuration, or just use the recommended setting.
  


leeu said:


> Question about high bandwidth, on the LME49990 it says you can make the chip go HB by not hooking up the BW pin, will that also work with a BUF634? or is it better to add a resistor between pins BW and v- on the BUF634 or on the LME49990 pins BW and Vee pin which is in the same location on both chips?
> Thanks
> Lee


 
  
 You don't need a resistor for BUF634 wide bandwidth mode, per datasheet. Adding a resistor is to limit how wide the bandwidth you want to go. I assume you mean LME49600 instead of LME49990
  
 Personally I just fail to see the benefit of wide bandwidth on either LME49600 or BUF634. It'll just eat up more battery life.


----------



## Loquah

Look what's on the FiiO site!!
  





   
*IEM Special Edition*

*Portable Headphone Amp*
  
 1. New opamp combo—an instant classic
 MUSES02+LME49600
  
 2. Metal film resistors
  
 3. Optimized sound tuning
  
 4. Intuitive Controls
  
 5. Durable aluminium alloy chassis
  
 More info here: http://fiio.net/products/index.aspx?ID=100000060421524&MenuID=105026001


----------



## Loquah

Seeing the E12A inspired me to try the LME49600 with the MUSES01 and I'm currently being amazed by the clarity and balance across all frequencies with that combo. I had gone off the LME49600, but it just needs the right op amp to overcome its tendency to push all the sound to either the left or right extremes of the soundstage it seems. With the MUSES01, there's a nice central image and good width, but without being excessively flattened in terms of soundstage depth. Having found multiple issues running the HA9P5002 with the E12DIY and various op amps (popping with the AD8066 and noise with most TI chips such as OPA827, etc. in combination with the SE846s and silver cable) I'm quite enjoying the fool-proof-ness of the LME49600 and BUF634 even though the 5002 has amazing potential with the right pairing.


----------



## palermo

looks delicate. Muses02 it means standar 8pin DIP. I hope it comes with socket.


----------



## audioxxx

I wounder if this e12A will out perform the e12DIY, I hope not. 
 Thinking happy thoughts. ...


----------



## gikigill

loquah said:


> Look what's on the FiiO site!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Nice find. Looking forward to it.


----------



## ClieOS

audioxxx said:


> I wounder if this e12A will out perform the e12DIY, I hope not.
> Thinking happy thoughts. ...


 
  
 It won't outperform E12DIY. I have the prototype with me for awhile now. If you put in MUSES02 and LME49600 into your E12DIY, it will sound near identical to E12A. The only difference is that E12A might be just a tiny bit darker in the background with ultra sensitive IEM. For the most part however, I doubt you can actually heard any difference.


----------



## audioxxx

Few, I'll sleep better now thanks ClieOS, the board design on the e12A looks like an art piece.


----------



## CH23

clieos said:


> It won't outperform E12DIY. I have the prototype with me for awhile now. If you put in MUSES02 and LME49600 into your E12DIY, it will sound near identical to E12A. The only difference is that E12A might be just a tiny bit darker in the background with ultra sensitive IEM. For the most part however, I doubt you can actually heard any difference.




Good to hear that. I was already calculating how i could afford another amp, and an excuse to buy it


----------



## JamesFiiO

ch23 said:


> Good to hear that. I was already calculating how i could afford another amp, and an excuse to buy it


 
  
 yes, E12DIY used +/- 11V power, and E12A used +/-7.4V. the higher power supply will good for the sound quality .


----------



## K.T.

Dang, that new E12A sure looks tempting!
  
 Even though we E12DIY owners are ahead of the curve in terms of chip rolling, is the E12A the first portable headphone amp to feature MUSES chip? If so, that's pretty groundbreaking!
  
 Even amps with OPA627 are rare. Guess it becomes more of a afficianados' amp when the chips inside are pricey.
  
 Yes, we can get the same sound out of the E12DIY, but I sure am tempted to get one. Looks nice and clean in black!
  
 MUSES chip must bump up the price over the standard E12. Hope it's not too expensive!


----------



## toears

Good looking piece of aluminim!


----------



## HK_sends

Guys,
  
 I know this is a shameless plug, but I will be making one of my E12 DIY Gold Editions available soon for (what I think is) a very reasonable price.  It currently has a genuine Muses02 from Mouser electronics installed along with the LME49600 (hey, kind of like the E12A).  I don't want to remove the Muses02 because the pins really are that bloody thin and flexible.  And it will include all the original rolling kit along with it.
  
 I will let you guys know when I post it in the for sale forums (hopefully, within the week).  I just wanted to drop a line here for the folks looking out for one...or if you know someone on the lookout, please pass the word.
 Cheers and all the Best!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## pekingduck

So what's the signature of the E12A? Neutral or warm?


----------



## ClieOS

pekingduck said:


> So what's the signature of the E12A? Neutral or warm?


 
  
 Neutral to slight warm. Warm might not be the right word here, maybe 'rich' will be more befitting.


----------



## pekingduck

clieos said:


> Neutral to slight warm. Warm might not be the right word here, maybe 'rich' will be more befitting.


 
 That's nice. I'll probably get one! Are the op amps and buffer soldered onto the circuit board?


----------



## ClieOS

pekingduck said:


> That's nice. I'll probably get one! Are the op amps and buffer soldered onto the circuit board?


 
  
 Dunno. My prototype has sockets but it is more of an adopted / modded version of E12DIY. But they might not want to have socket in the mass production units since it is not meant for DIY. Judging from the PCB picture on FiiO's website, I'll say there is definitely no buffer socket (as LME49600 only comes in surface mount packaging), so the chance of opamp socket is also slim.


----------



## Audio Reiner

I have tried the combo MUSES02 + LME49600 yesterday and I guess, it sounds much less spacious than the combo which I normally use in my E12DIY, MUSES02 + BUF634.
  
 Maybe it is my AKG K3003 with its low impedance. It has only 8 ohms.
  
 So far I'm glad to own the E12DIY and have the choice to put in the combo I prefer.


----------



## pekingduck

clieos said:


> Dunno. My prototype has sockets but it is more of an adopted / modded version of E12DIY. But they might not want to have socket in the mass production units since it is not meant for DIY. Judging from the PCB picture on FiiO's website, I'll say there is definitely no buffer socket (as LME49600 only comes in surface mount packaging), so the chance of opamp socket is also slim.


 
 I see! @JamesFiiO perhaps an E12A DIY in 2015?


----------



## K.T.

pekingduck said:


> I see! @JamesFiiO
> perhaps an E12A DIY in 2015?




A nice wish. I suspect, however, that as fantastic as the E12DIY was for us, the end user, it was probably a logistical and time management headache for James and FiiO. I doubt that they turned a profit on it. 

So I doubt we'll be seeing another limited production DIY amp from FiiO anytime soon. 

The E12DIY will go down in the annals of portable amps as a terrifically ambitious and unique project, however. It's a rare and special device.


----------



## CH23

k.t. said:


> A nice wish. I suspect, however, that as fantastic as the E12DIY was for us, the end user, it was probably a logistical and time management headache for James and FiiO. I doubt that they turned a profit on it.
> 
> So I doubt we'll be seeing another limited production DIY amp from FiiO anytime soon.
> 
> The E12DIY will go down in the annals of portable amps as a terrifically ambitious and unique project, however. It's a rare and special device.




Some day, people from all across the universe, will come together at an annual meeting, to share the one E12DIY that has survived space and time. As they take the device from the protective shielding, a few men faint, others scream. Clean pants required all around. People fall to their knees. This is it. The moment they've all been waiting for.

The Apostles of the Amplifier take the device to the first row. The president of the United Galaxies plugs in his astroplayer at the one end, his cerebral implant on the other side. Tears. A smile. The crowd applaudes him as he finishes listening.

One by one the people gets to listen to it. Oh how glorious it is that they've been chosen of the billions who wanted to come here. Something they'll be telling their grandchildren about for years to come.


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> Some day, people from all across the universe, will come together at an annual meeting, to share the one E12DIY that has survived space and time. As they take the device from the protective shielding, a few men faint, others scream. Clean pants required all around. People fall to their knees. This is it. The moment they've all been waiting for.
> 
> The Apostles of the Amplifier take the device to the first row. The president of the United Galaxies plugs in his astroplayer at the one end, his cerebral implant on the other side. Tears. A smile. The crowd applaudes him as he finishes listening.
> 
> One by one the people gets to listen to it. Oh how glorious it is that they've been chosen of the billions who wanted to come here. Something they'll be telling their grandchildren about for years to come.


 

 LOL
  
 I've just locked mine in a hermetically sealed vault... it'll be worth a fortune when that day comes!


----------



## CH23

loquah said:


> LOL
> 
> I've just locked mine in a hermetically sealed vault... it'll be worth a fortune when that day comes!




And just like that, cause and effect mixed up.

It was my story they found first. Then they read your comment, after which they tried to find this fantastic device. 

After millennia they did. Locked in a hermetically sealed vault. "Property of Loquah" it reads on the front.


(I believe there's no way to go any more off-topic than this, hahaha)


----------



## Loquah

ch23 said:


> And just like that, cause and effect mixed up.
> 
> It was my story they found first. Then they read your comment, after which they tried to find this fantastic device.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey, we're still talking about an E12DIY!

 To get more current with the topic though, which chip combos have people settled on and why?
  
 I'm currently rocking MUSES01 and LME49600 because it pairs really nicely with the SE846 and the MUSES01 seems to compliment / counterbalance the LME49600's tendency to push everything to the sides of the stage


----------



## Audio Reiner

I've  a question: When I set the volume in the same loudness for high gain and low gain the high gain is more dynamically. It seems like it has more bass and treble in high gain position and richer mids in the low gain position. For the use with my AKG K3003 the best would be the middle of both. Is it possible to change the high gain switch to less power output?


----------



## Loquah

audio reiner said:


> I've  a question: When I set the volume in the same loudness for high gain and low gain the high gain is more dynamically. It seems like it has more bass and treble in high gain position and richer mids in the low gain position. For the use with my AKG K3003 the best would be the middle of both. Is it possible to change the high gain switch to less power output?


 
  
 I believe the manual describes this and it involves using some of the provided resistors


----------



## K.T.

ch23 said:


> ...Clean pants required all around.


 
  
 That's just too much. Now you are just being sarcastic. Maybe for nobility and billionaires. Normal people can't be required to don the clean pants. Not even a billion years from now!
  
 Good observations about the LME49600. I had written that one off, too. It was too wirey sounding when I tried it before.
  
 I'll have to try it with both MUSES. But there are so many variations, I have yet to get a handle of the MUSES with HA-5002! 
  
 But maybe MUSES with LME49600 is the ticket.


----------



## Chefano

The best combo IMHO MUSES01 + LME49600, I love the clarity =D


----------



## lalala6

I've settled on the OPA827+LME49600 combo. Love the absolute transparency and clarity, yet it has a midrange fullness that complements really nicely with my ATH-AD2000. IMHO the OPA827's SQ is equal or even better than the Muses'. I haven't swapped opamps for weeks after putting in the OPA827, and it will probably stay in there permanently.


----------



## Loquah

lalala6 said:


> I've settled on the OPA827+LME49600 combo. Love the absolute transparency and clarity, yet it has a midrange fullness that complements really nicely with my ATH-AD2000. IMHO the OPA827's SQ is equal or even better than the Muses'. I haven't swapped opamps for weeks after putting in the OPA827, and it will probably stay in there permanently.


 
  
 Yeah, it's a tough call for me between OPA827 and MUSES01. If I'm honest I think I chose the MUSES01 just because that's the reason I bought it so I feel like I have to use it (but doing so gladly)


----------



## wigglepuff

how does the muses 01 and 02 differ? has anyone tried the 2?


----------



## lalala6

wigglepuff said:


> how does the muses 01 and 02 differ? has anyone tried the 2?


 
 ClieOS summed up the differences here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/674808/fiio-e12diy-limited-edition-version-diy-your-own-sound/450#post_10103659


----------



## JamesFiiO

we have some E12DIY in stock, please contact us through market@fiio.net if you are interested in it.


----------



## CH23

jamesfiio said:


> we have some E12DIY in stock, please contact us through market@fiio.net if you are interested in it.




I think you should post this in the X5 thread also. This thread seems more to be an owners thread than possible buyer thread...


----------



## AudioDog

Has the DIY been discontinued now? I was on the FIIO site and they have the new E12 IEM version, it seems to have replaced the DIY on the site.


----------



## CH23

audiodog said:


> Has the DIY been discontinued now? I was on the FIIO site and they have the new E12 IEM version, it seems to have replaced the DIY on the site.




The DIY had been discontinued for a long time. I believe a total of 1800 to 2000 had been made.


----------



## spyke

Hello guys, now I have a MB E12, and I like it so much, that even get this E12DIY ????
 How to Dac use a Burson 160.
 thanks


----------



## Loquah

If you're asking should you get a DIY then I'd say that it is a step up in performance from the standard E12 so yes, go for it!


----------



## kino lau

audiodog said:


> Has the DIY been discontinued now? I was on the FIIO site and they have the new E12 IEM version, it seems to have replaced the DIY on the site.


 
 You can still find and purchase the DIY even though it's not displayed on Fiio's site.
 (_well that was silly of me not reading back a few posts to see this was answered..._)


----------



## spyke

loquah said:


> If you're asking should you get a DIY then I'd say that it is a step up in performance from the standard E12 so yes, go for it!


 
 do you think the mont blanc in which configuration between these you approach? 
  
 AD8620 - good detail, almost edgy, a little flat on soundstage and lean on lower end texture
 MUSES01 - near perfect balance. ultra smooth and full sounding with lots of texture
 MUSES02 - Better depth than muses01, more layback with a little less texture
 MUSES8820 - similar to MUSES01, but scaled down and not nearly as grand
 MUSES8920 - similar to MUSES02, but similarly scaled down like 8820
 LME49720HA - very clean and clear with good air and soundstage
 OPA2107 - a little mid centric, nothing remarkable
 LM4562 - similar to LME49720, even cleaner and leaner, very O2 like.
 OPA2209 - a little veil on the mid and lacking detail
 AD8066 - great micro-detail and decent soundstage, but otherwise unremarkable
 AD797 x2 - neutral but edgy, like AD8620 with better depth
 OPA1611 x2 - laidback, if not a little dark
 OPA604 x2 - almost like opa1611, rather smooth.


----------



## Loquah

spyke said:


> do you think the mont blanc in which configuration between these you approach?
> 
> AD8620 - good detail, almost edgy, a little flat on soundstage and lean on lower end texture
> MUSES01 - near perfect balance. ultra smooth and full sounding with lots of texture
> ...


 
  
 Sorry, I'm not clear on your question. Are you asking which combination is most like the Mont Blanc?


----------



## spyke

yes, sorry but I do not know your language


----------



## Loquah

spyke said:


> yes, sorry but I do not know your language


 
  
 That's OK - you can guarantee that I don't know your language either as the only other language I speak some of is French and it's very, very poor! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The DIY comes with the same op amps as the Mont Blanc so you can match the general sound (only slightly better in clarity and resolution) and then you can trial all the others to see what you prefer with your personal setup - different headphones and earphones sound better with different op amps and buffer combinations.
  
 I hope this answers your question (sorry if I've still misunderstood)


----------



## AudioDog

I think, come the first I am going to get me a DIY before they are all snatched up.


----------



## spyke

It is perfect, centered ...
 I order it now and do tests, I've only got the Nad Visio, I sold everything I had xD
 thank you very much|


----------



## audioxxx

What a great amp, it really does need silver plated cables. My quick DIY cable. .

Great stock combo is opamp/opa1611 and buffer/buf634
Waiting for OPA 627 and 827 to arrive.


----------



## Loquah

audioxxx said:


> What a great amp, it really does need silver plated cables. My quick DIY cable. .
> 
> Great stock combo is opamp/opa1611 and buffer/buf634
> Waiting for OPA 627 and 827 to arrive.


 
  
 If you like OPA1611, my guess is you'll love OPA827


----------



## audioxxx

Excellent I'm looking forward to setting them up, the chips are on the way from USA evilbay, it's hard to go back to the x5 headphone out now after using the e12diy even with iem. 
 There's quite an improvement already.


----------



## Preben

Hello all 
Have e12 diy but i am mainly listen to iem reshelled tf 10 in my case i mainly listen to rap, pop, elektronic so my question is will i be better of with the e12a amp for my listening preference ?? Thanks for your help guys.


----------



## AudioDog

I am blown away with what I have now x5 > e18 > FAD Pandora Hope VI. I really cannot wait to be able to put a tunable e12 into the set.
  
 Are there any IEMs that just really stand out when driven by the E12's?


----------



## Loquah

audiodog said:


> I am blown away with what I have now x5 > e18 > FAD Pandora Hope VI. I really cannot wait to be able to put a tunable e12 into the set.
> 
> Are there any IEMs that just really stand out when driven by the E12's?


 
  
 Almost anything will sound good with the DIY because of it's excellent clarity, but you may find some low impedance IEMs will limit the available volume range which can be a little challenging. I'm currently having this problem with the SE846s - they sound awesome when driven by the DIY, but I only have about 20% of the volume range to work with so imbalance can be an issue at times.


----------



## AudioDog

hmm. the fad ph6 is an 8 ohm impedance headset. with that I can use the entire range of the E18 (low gain setting) the top end (lvl 9) is at my max tolerance and 2 is about as low as I listen. I like three on the knob though. The base feels just right for casual listening at 3.
  
 how much more powerful is the E12 in comparison to the E18?


----------



## Loquah

The DIY and E18 have the same approximate power output (300mW), but the gains might be different. It may also be the sensitivity of the headphones as the SE846 is both low impedance (9 ohm) and high sensitivity (114dB)


----------



## audioxxx

Have you tried the changing gain resisters to create a low gain for sensitive IEM'S?

Change Amp's High Gain
2 x SMT resistors is for R20 & R27.

Also turning on the Equaliser on the x5 drops the line level, this is very useful to get a little bit more usability from the volume pot. 

It doesn't seem clear on the gain changes in the manual. It might not be possible.


----------



## Loquah

I was looking at that today, but can't tell if it can lower low gain (0dB from the factory) or only change the high gain setting (20dB from factory)


----------



## audioxxx

I didn't get a manual, just looking at pics from earlier on in this thread. 
 But I think we need a little help from fiio on where and what to change on this resistor network, because this should be very good to have a low gain setting. But the eq on has been a lot better on the volume range, what a shame there's no line volume on the x5.


----------



## Loquah

audioxxx said:


> I didn't get a manual, just looking at pics from earlier on in this thread.
> But I think we need a little help from fiio on where and what to change on this resistor network, because this should be very good to have a low gain setting. But the eq on has been a lot better on the volume range, what a shame there's no line volume on the x5.


 
  
 I've used MediaMonkey to drop all tracks to an 80dB standard (Replay Gain) during transfers and it seems to have solved my problems, but the EQ is a good idea too


----------



## K.T.

audioxxx said:


> ...what a shame there's no line volume on the x5.


 
  
 Isn't a line level output a specified voltage value that's standard and non-adjustable?
  
 But I know what you're saying. If there were a way to adjust the volume from the DAP without resorting to taking the headphone output into the E12DIY amp, thus adding one extra amplification stage.


----------



## audioxxx

There are no specific standards for line levels that I'm aware of, but an adjustable line level output to allow for greater range on the pysical volume control,
 like the way usb audio pro (which is an Android music player app) handle their eq, there is a line level volume and it's fully adjustable. 
 This would be ideal.


----------



## nmatheis

loquah said:


> I've used MediaMonkey to drop all tracks to an 80dB standard (Replay Gain) during transfers and it seems to have solved my problems, but the EQ is a good idea too




Interesting tactic. By reducing overall volume, wouldn't you run the risk of dropping quiet passages below threshold of hearing?


----------



## CH23

audioxxx said:


> There are no specific standards for line levels that I'm aware of, but an adjustable line level output to allow for greater range on the pysical volume control,
> like the way usb audio pro (which is an Android music player app) handle their eq, there is a line level volume and it's fully adjustable.
> This would be ideal.




I can guarantee you that that "line level" isn't a lone level. It's already been through an amplifier. Something line out should never do.

This is why adjustable line outs aren't actually lone outs.

It defies the purpose.


----------



## nmatheis

ch23 said:


> I can guarantee you that that "line level" isn't a lone level. It's already been through an amplifier. Something line out should never do.
> 
> This is why adjustable line outs aren't actually lone outs.
> 
> It defies the purpose.




DX90 has DAC chip based variable volume line out, and it's quite handy.


----------



## audioxxx

Or the way the eq drops the level in the x5 when turned on, we need 3 or more db reduction levels in the options.


----------



## Loquah

That'd be nice if it stays bit perfect


----------



## audioxxx

nmatheis said:


> DX90 has DAC chip based variable volume line out, and it's quite handy.




With rock box, removable battery and variable line out, this dx90 is starting to look good.


----------



## audioxxx

loquah said:


> That'd be nice if it stays bit perfect




I assume it's still bit perfect when the eq is turned on, so it wouldn't take much to add 2 more level options in the menu.


----------



## nmatheis

audioxxx said:


> Or the way the eq drops the level in the x5 when turned on, we need 3 or more db reduction levels in the options.




+1111111111111111111111111111111111111111

That'd solve my E12A lust pretty quickly, seeing as I have E12 DIY and Muses02 already


----------



## T.R.A.N.C.E.

Anyone compared E12 DIY to ibasso P4? 

Also about the DX90, the EQ is not bit perfect, you lose quality by enabling it, even when left flat eq. It is a DAC controlled EQ, but because its happening in the digital domain the DAC needs to compress the sample to prevent clipping during EQ. As for the variable line out volume, anything other than full volume is not bit perfect anymore, thats what digital controlled DAC volume is. I highly reccomend not using EQ and using full volume with line out.


----------



## nmatheis

It's not whether or not it's bit perfect. It's whether or not the listener can perceive negative impact with their setup. Decreasing volume with DX90's LO sounds just fine to me with my equipment, and I get the benefit of much finer grained volume control with my amps.


----------



## gabriel-dan

Hi, anyone done a comparison between e12diy with any opamp/buf combination and the stock12 ?


----------



## Ekul61

Does anyone know a combo that emphasizes bass?


----------



## Ekul61

I have been a little dissapointed in the lack of bass with my he400i and x5 and e12diy with muse 1. So I got this idea to get my old e12 out to try the bass boost. So far it's working. Anyone know a combo for my DIY. That gives the bass of the boost on the e12?


----------



## Loquah

I'm not sure it's going to give a bass boost as such, but AD8599 might be a good option


----------



## Ekul61

Thx I will try


----------



## nappiguan

Just ordered a gold one,  How would this pair with the gold x1? Other than looking snazzy.


----------



## CH23

nappiguan said:


> Just ordered a gold one,  How would this pair with the gold x1? Other than looking snazzy.




Might be a bit on the large side compared to the X1, but it'll pair just nicely, as you can swap the parts that give it it's sound signature. Pretty sure it pairs nicely with about every DAP.


----------



## Shawn71

FiiO's official AliExpress store......enjoy!

 http://www.aliexpress.com/store/1473108?utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email


----------



## Lightless

The changing LED of my unit never turns off, when connected to the power supply.
 Does anyone got the same issue?


----------



## CH23

lightless said:


> The changing LED of my unit never turns off, when connected to the power supply.
> Does anyone got the same issue?




Fading in and out means charging

Red light means it's done charging

Black light means you're in a disco


----------



## Lightless

Oh, thanks.
 Never realized that the LED flashes while charging.


----------



## 3stun

Has anyone considered changing battery in their E12 DIY?
 Is it possible to use the higher capacity one used in E12A, or similar?


----------



## ClieOS

3stun said:


> Has anyone considered changing battery in their E12 DIY?
> Is it possible to use the higher capacity one used in E12A, or similar?


 
  
 There isn't enough space for larger battery.


----------



## jorge8

and where can we buy a spare battery?


----------



## ClieOS

jorge8 said:


> and where can we buy a spare battery?


 
  
 Call/email FiiO customer service.


----------



## fumoffuXx

i got a problem i am unsure if it was mentioned here before. i got a mused01 into my diy, so i prefer the sound of High gain compared to low but it comes with some "noise" in the background. is there anyway to remove it? or minimise it


----------



## CH23

fumoffuxx said:


> i got a problem i am unsure if it was mentioned here before. i got a mused01 into my diy, so i prefer the sound of High gain compared to low but it comes with some "noise" in the background. is there anyway to remove it? or minimise it




I don't think there's much you can do about this, high gain is a sort of hardware switch for higher volume, and thus everything gets amplified.


----------



## HiFlight

t.r.a.n.c.e. said:


> Anyone compared E12 DIY to ibasso P4?
> 
> Also about the DX90, the EQ is not bit perfect, you lose quality by enabling it, even when left flat eq. It is a DAC controlled EQ, but because its happening in the digital domain the DAC needs to compress the sample to prevent clipping during EQ. As for the variable line out volume, anything other than full volume is not bit perfect anymore, thats what digital controlled DAC volume is. I highly reccomend not using EQ and using full volume with line out.




Bit perfect is rather a nebulous term as the DX90 uses a 32 bit DAC and even with EQ enabled, the remaining dynamic range is far greater than what can be heard on any recording. The loudness wars of recent years have resulted in recordings of abysmal dynamic range. The highest dynamic ranges generally found are in well-mastered classical recordings which might reach about 60 db of dynamic range. 16bit recordings (CD quality) are capable of providing about a 96 db range so I would presume that regardless of what EQ setting is selected, it is doubtful that one will ever be able to detect the difference in bits lost.


----------



## samuelboy

Hi guys, just got my e12diy recently and the more I read the more I'm wondering... This "blank PCB" that is supposed to be provided, is it a set of blank PCB adapters just like the given plug and play ones but without chips on it, or is it simply referring to the empty opamp/buffer sockets on the amp's main PCB itself?

From the posts here and manual I interpret it as the former, but my package did not come with any blank adapters. Same goes for my friend's unit. Both of our s/n are early 200s.


----------



## ClieOS

samuelboy said:


> Hi guys, just got my e12diy recently and the more I read the more I'm wondering... This "blank PCB" that is supposed to be provided, is it a set of blank PCB adapters just like the given plug and play ones but without chips on it, or is it simply referring to the empty opamp/buffer sockets on the amp's main PCB itself?
> 
> *From the posts here and manual I interpret it as the former, but my package did not come with any blank adapters. Same goes for my friend's unit. Both of our s/n are early 200s.*


 
  
 Inside the metal box that has all the opamp and buffer, the blank PCB are sitting underneath the foam. Pry the foam out and you'll see them.


----------



## samuelboy

Haha thanks the dealer just replied and I dug out the foam and they are there.


----------



## samuelboy

I'm keen to try muses01. Have randomly read through this long thread and what I gathered is that by installing muses the casing will be blocked and I have to sand off a trench in order to accomodate the height. Am I right?

Also, can I verify the steps needed, cos I see quite a handful of comments about adapters and soldering so wanna confirm all the stuff I need... When I order the muses from a dealer, it will come with the chip + socket (saw it in the photos in page 30+)? What's next? Do I plug the chip into the socket and then the whole thing into the amp's socket, or direct plug the chip into amp's socket?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

samuelboy said:


> I'm keen to try muses01. Have randomly read through this long thread and what I gathered is that by installing muses the casing will be blocked and I have to sand off a trench in order to accomodate the height. Am I right?
> 
> Also, can I verify the steps needed, cos I see quite a handful of comments about adapters and soldering so wanna confirm all the stuff I need... When I order the muses from a dealer, it will come with the chip + socket (saw it in the photos in page 30+)? What's next? Do I plug the chip into the socket and then the whole thing into the amp's socket, or direct plug the chip into amp's socket?




Chip directly into the amp's socket.


----------



## 3stun

clieos said:


> There isn't enough space for larger battery.


 
 I thought battery size is the same in all 3 versions (standard E12, DIY and E12A), only with different capacity.
 Has anyone opened E12A and checked actual size of the battery?


----------



## ClieOS

3stun said:


> I thought battery size is the same in all 3 versions (standard E12, DIY and E12A), only with different capacity.
> Has anyone opened E12A and checked actual size of the battery?


 
 Battery of the same physical size and chemistry but different vastly in capacity will violate law of physics.


----------



## 3stun

clieos said:


> Battery of the same physical size and chemistry but different vastly in capacity will violate law of physics.


 
 I don't know much about this stuff, but aren't there aftermarket batteries for many portable devices with higher capacity compared to stock batteries while being the same in size?


----------



## ClieOS

3stun said:


> I don't know much about this stuff, but aren't there aftermarket batteries for many portable devices with higher capacity compared to stock batteries while being the same in size?


 
  ...and snake oil cures cancer, so said the seller.


----------



## samuelboy

hal rockwell said:


> Chip directly into the amp's socket.




Great! So it's really plug and play, and my only obstacle is finding a trusted source and making way for the chip to slide in. Thanks!


----------



## Loquah

samuelboy said:


> I'm keen to try muses01. Have randomly read through this long thread and what I gathered is that by installing muses the casing will be blocked and I have to sand off a trench in order to accomodate the height. Am I right?


 
  
 Yes. You need to sand / grind some extra space. Exactly how much seems to vary slightly


----------



## CH23

3stun said:


> I don't know much about this stuff, but aren't there aftermarket batteries for many portable devices with higher capacity compared to stock batteries while being the same in size?




You could always wait for graphene batteries to become a thing...


----------



## Ekul61

NJM5532 purchased this opamp feom mouser for $1.50. This seems inexpensive. Is this the correct price?


----------



## Loquah

That sounds ok. It's a cheap op amp for its level of performance


----------



## Ekul61

loquah said:


> That sounds ok. It's a cheap op amp for its level of performance


I was told this would give me a clean sound. My muse1 seems a little vailed. Like the high piano notes are not as sharp as the x5 alone


----------



## ClieOS

ekul61 said:


> NJM5532 purchased this opamp feom mouser for $1.50. This seems inexpensive. Is this the correct price?


 
  
 It is cheap because 1) it was never an expensive opamp to begin with,  2) it is a very old opamp that has been widely used in the past, but now it has dropped out of fashion in the audio world and 3) the circuit design has been adopted by several companies so there are quite a few of generic version out there (I have all of them, and NJM is the best sounding of them all). As it is not a proprietary design, the price becomes much cheaper.
  
 Don't get fooled by the cheap price though, 5532 variants are still excellent for audio. That's a reason why it is used in O2 as well.


----------



## beyerdude

ekul61 said:


> I was told this would give me a clean sound. My muse1 seems a little vailed. Like the high piano notes are not as sharp as the x5 alone


 

 my initial combo (HA 5002 and Muses 02) sounded muddy/veiled with high impedance headphones (300 ohm HD600), but swapping it to the LM49600 made it really sound excellent - Which is annoying because now I end up swapping opamp and buffer when I choose to use IEM's over the HD600 (which is rare thankfully)


----------



## K.T.

ekul61 said:


> NJM5532 purchased this opamp feom mouser for $1.50. This seems inexpensive. Is this the correct price?




For the price, it's a no brainer to try it out. 

Whether you'll love it is another matter. It is a good sounding op amp, and I think some folks love it. 

When I tried it, I thought it was great for a while. But after extended listening, I felt it was a bit harmonically underdeveloped for my taste. While it had a very clean, fast, open sound, I preferred the MUSES and OPA627/OPA827 for the richer presentation. 

But don't let me dissuade you. At the asking price, you almost definitely should try them and decide for yourself.


----------



## warrior1975

I am interested in this, however use never done anything like this. Are there specific places I can look for buf and op amp chips that fit this device?is the original equipment that comes with it enough? Is it time consuming to swap the parts out? Thanks for any info anyone can share.


----------



## Ekul61

Lm49600.. is this one of the stock amps that come with the unit


----------



## nmatheis

warrior1975 said:


> I am interested in this, however use never done anything like this. Are there specific places I can look for buf and op amp chips that fit this device?is the original equipment that comes with it enough? Is it time consuming to swap the parts out? Thanks for any info anyone can share.




If you look back over this thread, you'll fing ClieOS and a few others have compiled a couple lists of their favorite Opamps and buffers. This can be a shopping list of sorts to get you going after you try the options Fiio provides in the box. 

Once you decide to try more, you can either buy small opamps to solder onto Fiio's adapters or you can purchase dip8 opamps which require some filing of the inner case to fit. Again, ClieOS has a pictorial for the filing procedure in this thread. I filed mine down. It took a half hour or so to get it right. 

Once you've got the case filed down and some dip8 opamps in hand, it's as easy as removing two screws from the case and gently removing the old opamp and reversing the procedure. Piece of cake!

And every once in awhile, someone on the thread like ClieOS will offer to solder a batch of opamps to adapters and ship them to fellow headfi-ers at cost. Very nice gift to the community!


----------



## warrior1975

nmatheis nice, thanks bro. Out of Thanks for the day unfortunately, I owe you one!


----------



## nmatheis

warrior1975:


----------



## Ekul61

ekul61 said:


> Lm49600.. is this one of the stock amps that come with the unit


dont kn ow but someone will answer you soon


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> Lm49600.. is this one of the stock amps that come with the unit


 
  
 LME49600 is a buffer that *does* come with the unit


----------



## Ekul61

loquah said:


> LME49600 is a buffer that *does* come with the unit


any opinion on a combo that brings the mids to life


----------



## Loquah

ekul61 said:


> any opinion on a combo that brings the mids to life


 
  
 The mids are amazing with the BUF634 (stock) and OPA827 (not stock) is a glorious mid-range combo


----------



## vilhelm44

Do you still have an audible hiss with the DIY version? The E12 does which is slightly annoying. I'm using mine with the Sony NWZ-ZX1 and JH13 Pros.


----------



## nmatheis

If you don't want hiss maybe go with E12A


----------



## LeeU

For me I have settled on the Muse 02 op amp, LM4900 buffer in high bandwidth mode with 220 ohm resistors only raising the band width ever so slightly over the low bandwidth mode and Black Gates Nx HiQ 47uF 6.3V capacitors running my Sennheiser HD650's, it took over 300 hrs to burn in the capacitors but I'm done, this combo is the one for me. In the photo I have the the HA 5002's in which is my second favorite buffer.


----------



## vilhelm44

nmatheis said:


> If you don't want hiss maybe go with E12A


 
  
 Thank you, I shall look into that.


----------



## Loquah

vilhelm44 said:


> Do you still have an audible hiss with the DIY version? The E12 does which is slightly annoying. I'm using mine with the Sony NWZ-ZX1 and JH13 Pros.


 
  
 Zero hiss unless the DIY is on high gain mode
  


leeu said:


> For me I have settled on the Muse 02 op amp, LM4900 buffer in high bandwidth mode with 220 ohm resistors only raising the band width ever so slightly over the low bandwidth mode and Black Gates Nx HiQ 47uF 6.3V capacitors running my Sennheiser HD650's, it took over 300 hrs to burn in the capacitors but I'm done, this combo is the one for me. In the photo I have the the HA 5002's in which is my second favorite buffer.


 
  
 What is the benefit of changing the bandwidth?


----------



## vilhelm44

loquah said:


> Zero hiss unless the DIY is on high gain mode
> 
> 
> What is the benefit of changing the bandwidth?


 
  
 Thanks. I ended up ordering the E12A.


----------



## nmatheis

You'll enjoy the E12A!


----------



## LeeU

It raises the quiesent current slightly and raises the band width from 110 mghz to 130 mghz,110 is way more than needed I know but the buffer just sounds better with a slightly higher quiesent current in my opinion


----------



## K.T.

leeu said:


> It raises the quiesent current slightly and raises the band width from 110 mghz to 130 mghz,110 is way more than needed I know but the buffer just sounds better with a slightly higher quiesent current in my opinion




Do you notice an effect on battery life? As in shorter life because of the increased current?


----------



## LeeU

Not much, I did not go all out, just raised it a little, there has been a lot discued on other forums about high bandwidth on the buf634 and the 9600 about overall sound clarity improvements by going high bandwidth, I agree, it is important to at least go with a 220 ohm resistor as any thing less hurts the sound.


----------



## K.T.

Sounds good. But how about when you change to something like HA-5002 or another buffer? 

Will the higher biasing still work and give improved sound? Or is the mod just specific to the BUF634 and 9600?

I might be interested in doing this mod.


----------



## LeeU

The resistor is soldered on each buffer,so X 2 for the 634 X 2 for 9600


----------



## LeeU

I used Vishay audio quality 1/10 watt resistors


----------



## K.T.

leeu said:


> The resistor is soldered on each buffer,so X 2 for the 634 X 2 for 9600




OK, that makes a lot of sense. Biasing resistors are specific to the buffer and soldered directly on to them. 

Can you give more info about the resistors? 

Would that be a surface mount package, or through hole resistors? There's not a lot of room in the case, but those really low wattage through hole resistors can be quite tiny.


----------



## Loquah

I've been playing around today and the OPA627 has made a huge comeback in my personal op amp preferences - possibly due to a different set of IEMs this time.
  
 What's more interesting to me though is how much trouble I'm having deciding if I prefer BUF634 or LME49600. LME49600 apparently measures better, but the sound from BUF634 seems more spacious and organic to my ears. What is everyone else finding?


----------



## beyerdude

loquah said:


> I've been playing around today and the OPA627 has made a huge comeback in my personal op amp preferences - possibly due to a different set of IEMs this time.
> 
> What's more interesting to me though is how much trouble I'm having deciding if I prefer BUF634 or LME49600. LME49600 apparently measures better, but the sound from BUF634 seems more spacious and organic to my ears. What is everyone else finding?


 
 I found the same with my IEMS (Havi B Pro) - the Buf634 with the default AD797 and then the OPA627 worked best but with 300ohm headphones I find the LME49600 a better match - also your point on the OPA627 is similar to my findings - last week I swapped the Muses02 to the OPA627 for the first really long (week long) audition and found the sound immensely enjoyable


----------



## Loquah

The OPA627 is a sneaky good op-amp. It's newer brother, OPA827, is more striking and engaging on first listen, but OPA627 has this endless sense of space and texture to instruments that I can't find anywhere else except the LM49990 which comes close, but falls a bit short on overall realism due to the slightly "plastic" sheen it creates in the sound.
  
 After much swapping today to find the ultimate combo for my new Noble K10s, I am down to the HA-5002 or BUF634 with either the OPA627 or the NJM5532...


----------



## beyerdude

loquah said:


> The OPA627 is a sneaky good op-amp. It's newer brother, OPA827, is more striking and engaging on first listen, but OPA627 has this endless sense of space and texture to instruments that I can't find anywhere else except the LM49990 which comes close, but falls a bit short on overall realism due to the slightly "plastic" sheen it creates in the sound.
> 
> After much swapping today to find the ultimate combo for my new Noble K10s, I am down to the HA-5002 or BUF634 with either the OPA627 or the NJM5532...


 

 For some bizarre reason I never gave the opa627 a fair chance, which considering it's about the most expensive op amp around is ironic - perhaps due to my first test of one being paired it with a Neco amp years ago and Beyer DT880 600ohm and it sounded plain DULL - I have since realised that it was more to do with the amps inability to drive 600ohm headphones well rather than the OPA627 - at the time I assumed that since it had enough volume it must be able to drive 600ohm well which I have since discovered to be one of the more common errors with these headphones!


----------



## Loquah

Yeah - I never really noticed the full magic of the 627 until today with the K10s. I am now trying the same combo with the SE846 and while it sounds good, it's just not as amazing as with the K10s - it's like the OPA627 is a high performance sports car that needs just the right roads to really appreciate it (or in this case just the right 'phones) - I think one of the keys is treble extension and resolution where the brighter, but highly refined K10s can show off how smooth the 627 is without getting thick like the 846s can


----------



## beyerdude

loquah said:


> Yeah - I never really noticed the full magic of the 627 until today with the K10s. I am now trying the same combo with the SE846 and while it sounds good, it's just not as amazing as with the K10s - it's like the OPA627 is a high performance sports car that needs just the right roads to really appreciate it (or in this case just the right 'phones) - I think one of the keys is treble extension and resolution where the brighter, but highly refined K10s can show off how smooth the 627 is without getting thick like the 846s can


 

 I agree - I think you need the right combination to really appreciate it - I use it with my HD600 headphones and they are a very happy pairing - don't feel I am losing out too much going between my main home rigs and the 'lesser portable'  and I would say for the Havi B Pro they are also the best sounding - I just bought a new Metrum Aurix headphone amp and I put it into the same category - probably will be glossed over by many due to its understated sound but ultimately you could listen to it all day without complaint.


----------



## Ekul61

Anyone prefer the muse 2 over the muse 1? If so which buffer do you prefer?


----------



## duyu

Finally, my E12DIY has a MUSES 02 ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 What's next?


----------



## ClieOS

duyu said:


> Finally, my E12DIY has a MUSES 02 !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Happy ever after?


----------



## duyu

clieos said:


> Happy ever after?


 
 Yes. I'm pairing this with the X3 and the Klipsch X10.
 I can definitely experience an improvement in soundstage and detail. I didn't expect that the X10 can be benefited this much with the Muses 02. I've tried to pair these earphones with the E12DIY using other given op-amps before, but the result was not very impressive.


----------



## Loquah

Speaking of MUSES02, can anyone provide a comparison between it (the M02) and OPA627?


----------



## K.T.

loquah said:


> Speaking of MUSES02, can anyone provide a comparison between it (the M02) and OPA627?




I haven't listened both for a little while, but from memory I'd say the OPA627 has a more balanced frequency response from treble to bass. It sounds more even from top to bottom. Nice sense of pace and drama, and it's bass response is more solid and startling by comparison.

MUSES02 seems more focused on midrange expression. Listened to on its own, you don't feel like you're missing bass, however, simply because the MUSES02 kind of hypnotizes you with that midrange. It's more lucid and communicative by comparison, and you feel very satisfied with what it does with the music.

But when you switch back to OPA627, you enjoy the sense of drama provided by its more solid and prominent bass. But you do notice that the midrange is more recessed and less lucid and less communicative than of the MUSES02.

Both are pretty great, but I tend to prefer the MUSES02 a bit more, myself. Both are among my favorite op amps.

Recently I've been using the OPA827 with BUF634 and have been enjoying that a lot. With the IEM and phones I prefer, the extra clarity of the OPA827 works slightly better for me than the OPA627. I've also been using a Cayin C5, which is also great in its own way. 

I've been meaning to get back to the MUSES because I love them so much, but I've been trying to get a handle on these other two, and there's so little time these days to sit back for extended listening .


----------



## Loquah

Thanks for the excellent comparison! Which buffer are you using with OPA627 / M02?


----------



## K.T.

I started rolling op amps before the rolled buffers, so I initially compared the OPA627 and MUSES02 with the stock BUF634. 

The BUF634 is a pretty warm and forgiving buffer, so while differences were apparent, they were not as great as those heard using the LME49600 and HA-5002.

To tell the truth, OPA627 and BUF634 was very musical and comfortable sounding to me, but did not make my eyes pop out. I liked the MUSES02 more by comparison with the BUF, but not by much.

Switching to LME49600 highlighted the differences much more. I liked his buffer for its open and fast sound, but was bothered by a slightly wirey quality to the sound.

I swapped to the HA-5002 and initially thought it had a slightly plastic and artificial quality. But that worked itself out and disappeared after some burn in. It's the buffer I'm using now as my go to choice. It falls somewhere between the warmer, softer sound of the BUF634 and the faster, leaner sound of the LME49600.

I'm wondering if I didn't give the LME49600 enough time to fully burn in. A lot of folks here enjoy the LME49600 with the MUSES02, and I'm not bothered by that wirey quality in my standard E12 or my Cayin C5 which also uses that buffer. So maybe I didn't let it run in enough.

Of course, so much comes down to personal preference and system synergy. 

I hope you find your perfect pairing.


----------



## beyerdude

k.t. said:


> I started rolling op amps before the rolled buffers, so I initially compared the OPA627 and MUSES02 with the stock BUF634.
> 
> The BUF634 is a pretty warm and forgiving buffer, so while differences were apparent, they were not as great as those heard using the LME49600 and HA-5002.
> 
> ...


 

 I use the LME49600 with the Muses02 but only because I use high impedance headphones. I prefer the HA5002 for my IEMS - For some reason the HA5002 with the Muses02 and 300ohm headphones just doesn't work well (sounded muddy/lacking in bass definition)


----------



## Hal Rockwell

When I use OPA827 I get crackling noise on both channels. Sometimes I hear it only when there is no music playing but sometimes it's present during playback too. I get the crackling noise no matter what buffer and caps I use. Sometimes I can't even turn my E12DIY on using the OPA827 - all I get is just a flickering blue led. Any ideas on how to fix it?


----------



## ClieOS

hal rockwell said:


> When I use OPA827 I get crackling noise on both channels. Sometimes I hear it only when there is no music playing but sometimes it's present during playback too. I get the crackling noise no matter what buffer and caps I use. Sometimes I can't even turn my E12DIY on using the OPA827 - all I get is just a flickering blue led. Any ideas on how to fix it?


 
  
 Try cleaning up the pin. Likely just a contact issue on the socket.


----------



## kamson

If someone is still looking for muses02 - find it here for ~ $37. Just received mine and it seems legit.


----------



## ClieOS

kamson said:


> ... Just received mine and it seems legit.


 
  
 As we have seen in the past in this thread, too many 'seems legit' all end up being fake. It might as well be the real deal, but I'll still recommend going to the official source as much as possible.


----------



## kamson

clieos said:


> As we have seen in the past in this thread, too many 'seems legit' all end up being fake. It might as well be the real deal, but I'll still recommend going to the official source as much as possible.


 
 I did a lot of checking and found nothing suspicious. Front printing is exactly the same as yours.


----------



## ClieOS

kamson said:


> I did a lot of checking and found nothing suspicious. Front printing is exactly the same as yours.


 
  
 All good and well, except front marking is not exactly a proof of authenticity.


----------



## precisionmike

If I am using a pair of Noble k10 CIEM, would it make sense to do the e12a vs the E12diy with the Muse device?  Seems to me I end up with the same amp, but less $.  Thoughts?


----------



## Loquah

The two amps are still a bit different. The DIY has more overall power output and better power supply so it can sound better (not just with hungry cans, but with IEMs too).
  
 The potential issue with the DIY is having too much power and not enough volume range to work with easily. I solved this using MediaMonkey to drop all files by about 9dB during file transfers to the X5, but that would be a hassle if you're not using software with auto-conversion capabilities.
  
 If it were me I would consider if I am ever likely to want to use more power-hungry cans and whether or not I can easily convert the volume level of the files on the X5. If yes to either of those (and particularly part 2) I would still get the DIY because of it's slightly better circuitry and the ability to tweak the sound


----------



## nmatheis

Hmm... Wonder if there's a way to automate dB reduction on the fly during transfer I a Mac?


----------



## Loquah

I'd be surprised if there wasn't a piece of software that could, but I don't know. Audivarna and Amarra (names?) don't, do they?


----------



## ClieOS

For mainly IEM user, the chance is likely that you will never notice any different between E12A and E12DIY (with MUSES02+LME49600), given you will not likely going to be anywhere near the limit of both amps.


----------



## precisionmike

Interesting Loquah, I did not realize that the E12DIY would have "too much" power for the k10's.  The additional output was one thing that had me leaning towards the DIY.  That, and the fact that I do like to tweak the sound.  After the research I have done on the DIY, it seems most end up with the Muse, which is why I was looking at the E12a.  Thanks, as always for the incite!  Still a tough choice, but now I am thinking the e12a might be the right option for my set up.  I will never use with any other cans.  If I spend another dime on HF, wifey will cut my ears off.


----------



## Loquah

I can't comment on the MUSES02, but I actually don't like the MUSES01 with the K10s because it seems to hold them back in terms of staging. The OPA627 is by far my favourite op amp with the K10s. AD8620 is also a great pairing with the K10s and it comes stock with the DIY.
  
 As I said though, this doesn't reflect at all on the MUSES02 because I haven't heard it to compare.


----------



## samuelboy

Which OPA627 should I be getting? I'm looking at element14 online list and there are OPA627AP (low offset voltage), OPA627APG4 (high speed), OPA627BP (high speed)...


----------



## Hal Rockwell

samuelboy said:


> Which OPA627 should I be getting? I'm looking at element14 online list and there are OPA627AP (low offset voltage), OPA627APG4 (high speed), OPA627BP (high speed)...




OPA627AU


----------



## samuelboy

hal rockwell said:


> OPA627AU


 
 AU is surface mount right? Do you mean I have to solder if I wanna use the 627, or I can actually get the DIP version and plug direct like MUSES?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

samuelboy said:


> AU is surface mount right? Do you mean I have to solder if I wanna use the 627, or I can actually get the DIP version and plug direct like MUSES?




There is no DIP version of OPA627 and OPA627 is a single channel opamp. You will have to buy two of those and solder them on a dual to single adapter that came bundled with the E12DIY.


----------



## kamson

clieos said:


> kamson said:
> 
> 
> > I did a lot of checking and found nothing suspicious. Front printing is exactly the same as yours.
> ...


 After few days of listening to it and other op amps I can say is 100% legit...


----------



## ClieOS

kamson said:


> After few days of listening to it and other op amps I can say is 100% legit...


 
  
 Well, if you say so.


----------



## samuelboy

hal rockwell said:


> There is no DIP version of OPA627 and OPA627 is a single channel opamp. You will have to buy two of those and solder them on a dual to single adapter that came bundled with the E12DIY.


 
 I see. Thanks!


----------



## K.T.

hal rockwell said:


> There is no DIP version of OPA627 and OPA627 is a single channel opamp. You will have to buy two of those and solder them on a dual to single adapter that came bundled with the E12DIY.




The OPA627 is certainly a fine choice for this amp. So much comes down to taste. I love my OPA627, but keep coming back to the MUSES. But both are pretty awesome.

At one time a DIP version of the OPA627 did exist. I got samples directly from the company, can't remember if it was TI or Burr Brown at that time. That was like 15+ years ago. I put some sockets in an Adcom GFP565 I was using an plopped them in. They sounded way too warm in that application. Probably needed some tweaking to the biasing and supporting circuitry to make them sing.

Even if you did find some of these DIP packages, these are a single channel op amp, as Hal mentioned, and would not work for the E12DIY.


----------



## fumoffuXx

Hmm clieos, if i were to get a muse02 at that japanese site...forgot the name haha, what good buffers should i lompang?


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> Hmm clieos, if i were to get a muse02 at that japanese site...forgot the name haha, what good buffers should i lompang?


 
  
 The stock LME49600 pairs up pretty well with MUSES02. Personally, I like Intersil HA-5002 a bit more, though you need to use the special BrownDog adapter with it.


----------



## fumoffuXx

eveything obtainable from akizuki denshi? if not any reputable place to get all in 1 place?


----------



## ClieOS

fumoffuxx said:


> eveything obtainable from akizuki denshi? if not any reputable place to get all in 1 place?


 
  
 If price isn't a factor, everything can be found on Mouser, except for BrownDog adapter which you 'll have to source from BrownDog.


----------



## K.T.

So I got a new E12A just a few days ago. This is the IEM specific amp with MUSES02 and LME49600 buffer.
  
 It sounds good. Kinda what I expected, since I've been using the MUSES01 and MUSES02 for a while.
  
 What I didn't expect, though, was how I'm starting to like the LME49600 again.
  
 It's a really open sounding buffer, and with the right song and IEMs/headphones, can really create a surprising sense of space and openness.
  
 Interesting because this buffer is used in the standard E12, and also the Cayin C5. The C5 really shows off this sense of space, but again, with certain tracks and copasetic IEMs/headphones.
  
 I had tried the LME49600 a while ago, but dismissed it because of a slight wireyness to the sound. Interestingly, I don't find that so objectionable the second time around.
  
 Right now I'm testing the LME49600 with some OPA627. Very musical, but with some IEM/headphone combos it might sound too soft. I thought so with a couple of songs I listened to, so swapped out to the OPA827. This combo actually sounded too lean, so back to the OPA627. I really like this pairing. Very nice.
  
 But LME49600 does go well with the MUSES02. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I'm curious to use it with the MUSES01.
  
 Interestingly, the HA-5002, which was my go to buffer, sounds really good. But there's a sense of opacity and density to the sound. It doesn't seem to do the spacial effects that the LME49600 does (which can be quite breathtaking). At least not on the IEMs/phones I've tried so far.
  
 So the LME49600 is back on my list, at least for the time being.


----------



## pietcux

Ordered an E12a today. Wanna check on the sound of Muses this way, as there are too many cheap copies of those around on the market. I think it is a smoove move from Fiio to bring this E12 version.


----------



## Loquah

Do you have the DIY too? I'm keen to read some direct comparisons


----------



## nmatheis

loquah said:


> Do you have the DIY too? I'm keen to read some direct comparisons




Like what? With DIY, you get more power and you get to swap out opamps and buffers to give your amp whatever flavor you like. E12A sounds very nice and has less power but still more than I'd like on low gain.


----------



## Loquah

That's very helpful for one thing - the comment about too much power.

I guess I'm curious to know if E12A sounds as good with IEMs as DIY with same setup or if DIY is still a better circuit


----------



## nmatheis

Sounds pretty much the same but I really thought I'd be able to crank the volume knob up more before feeling like I'd go deaf. It's definitely better than E12 DIY in that respect but not what I was expecting from an IEM-focused amp.


----------



## audioxxx

Yeah, its still very sensitive and the volume jumps up fast on a high voltage line outputs.
 I think I like the bass better on my e12diy (could be the cerafine capacitor update) it seems more controlled and tighter. Although my 12a is still burning in. Its also a bit heavier, 12a has a sweet midrange very detailed and classical music is where it excels so far.
Maybe 12a needs more time to form its final sound. But so far my diy is getting my toes tapping more.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> Do you have the DIY too? I'm keen to read some direct comparisons


 
  
  


loquah said:


> That's very helpful for one thing - the comment about too much power.
> 
> I guess I'm curious to know if E12A sounds as good with IEMs as DIY with same setup or if DIY is still a better circuit


 
  
 With the same opamp and buffer combo, volume matched and listened to IEM, I can't tell them apart.


----------



## pietcux

clieos said:


> With the same opamp and buffer combo, volume matched and listened to IEM, I can't tell them apart.



That's all I wanted to know. The Muses are hard to get in my region. And then there is the risk of fraudulent units. Now I have E12 with Muses and I trust on that Fiio got me the original ones.


----------



## nmatheis

audioxxx said:


> Yeah, its still very sensitive and the volume jumps up fast on a high voltage line outputs.
> I think I like the bass better on my e12diy (could be the cerafine capacitor update) it seems more controlled and tighter. Although my 12a is still burning in. Its also a bit heavier, 12a has a sweet midrange very detailed and classical music is where it excels so far.
> Maybe 12a needs more time to form its final sound. But so far my diy is getting my toes tapping more.




With same buffer & opamp?


----------



## audioxxx

No I don't have any muses opamps,(and didn't want to buy a fake one, so I got the 12a to try it)
 So it's not a fair comparison I made, but the muses seem to not have as much bass in their sound Is what I should have said.
 Merry Xmas, and lots of ho ho ho's.


----------



## audioxxx

After doing more comparison's between e12diy and e12a, I'm finding that the diy is better for my p7, and that extra voltage lights them up, for that purpose I'm keeping it, the B&W p7 sounds the best I've heard them through the DIY. 
 But the e12a shines with iem's, they are perfect for this, and its preference to power iem's are obvious as you plug them in. 
 It looks like I'm keeping both, for now. I like how their both performing. If you use IEM's the 12a is perfectly tuned for those things, and is worth a demo in my opinion.


----------



## jamato8

I have both and they are very good amps. Clean sound, great dynamics and transient speed.


----------



## nmatheis

Enjoying HA5002 + OPA627 

Cheers to ClieOS and Reima for making it happen!


----------



## K.T.

nmatheis said:


> Enjoying HA5002 + OPA627
> 
> Cheers to ClieOS and Reima for making it happen!




Yes, it's a great combo for sure. Glad you're enjoying it!

Have you tried OPA627 with LME49600? It's good, too, but different.

It's funny. Whenever I go back to the LME49600, I'm taken with how much more open and dynamic it sounds. Good stuff!

But after a time, I'll go back to the HA-5002, and I'll be surprised at how much fuller and meatier it sounds. Also great! In direct comparison, it makes the LME49600 sound somewhat lean and wirey, IMO. 

But I love both. I wish I had enough E12DIYs to have all my favorite combos set up. 

It's interesting that the stock FiiO E12/E12A spec the LME49600, as does the Cayin C5.

To my limited knowledge, I'm not aware of any commercial portable offerings that spec the HA-5002, as good as it sounds.

Right now I'm really digging the E12A with my IEMs. But I also have an E12DIY set up with OPA627 and LME49600 and another set up with MUSES02 and HA-5002. All great in their own way.


----------



## nmatheis

Nope, haven't tried OPA627 with LME49600 yet. I acquired quite a few Opamps to try and was running them through with BUF but remembered people commenting on how good OPA627 + HA5002 sounded, so I broke up my routine. 

At first, I was getting a lot of hum out of the HO with OPA627 + HA5002 - but only if I pushed the volume pot past ~9 o'clock. Then I reseated OPA627 and both HA5002, and luckily the hum went away. 

I think you've got the right idea with two E12 DIY K.T.. I might have to look for another or see if someone wants to trade for my Cayin C5, since I can get similar sound out of E12 DIY and really don't like the bass boost implementation on Cayin C5 (too boomy).


----------



## ClieOS

k.t. said:


> To my limited knowledge, I'm not aware of any commercial portable offerings that spec the HA-5002, as good as it sounds.
> ...


 
  
 That's because HA-5002 is a video buffer with no short current protection. It is mostly safe for audio use but there is still a chance it might burn itself up when incorrectly connected (when you short the live to the ground basically). It is the kind of liability manufacturer will rather not face.


----------



## K.T.

clieos said:


> That's because HA-5002 is a video buffer with no short current protection. It is mostly safe for audio use but there is still a chance it might burn itself up when incorrectly connected (when you short the live to the ground basically). It is the kind of liability manufacturer will rather not face.


 
  
 ClieOS,
  
 That makes total sense. Manufacturers would shoot themselves in the foot if they chose a device that was so prone to damage from user error and simple accidents.
  
 One thing op amp rolling has shown me is just how much a buffer contributes to the overall SQ of an amp.
  
 You hear "buffer" and may think that they all perform the same simple function.
  
 But they do inject their own signature into the sound, sometimes radically altering the sound, from buffer to buffer.
  
 In fact, the choice of buffer can make or break how your system works for you.


----------



## Tobias89

Hi guys,
  
 I have a e12 diy that was working fine till afew days ago when the right channel cut out completely. What can I do about it?


----------



## jamato8

tobias89 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have a e12 diy that was working fine till afew days ago when the right channel cut out completely. What can I do about it?


 

 You switched op amps and buffers to see if it follows? If it doesn't then for some reason the channel has gone out. It could be anything from a solder joint coming loose on the pcb for the input or output jack etc. Did you do anything just prior to this happening?


----------



## Tobias89

jamato8 said:


> You switched op amps and buffers to see if it follows? If it doesn't then for some reason the channel has gone out. It could be anything from a solder joint coming loose on the pcb for the input or output jack etc. Did you do anything just prior to this happening?


 
 Yup. Doesn't seem to fix the problem. Haven't used it for about a month or so since I sold my DX90.
  
 The warranty's gone the moment the seal is broken right?


----------



## HK_sends

tobias89 said:


> Yup. Doesn't seem to fix the problem. Haven't used it for about a month or so since I sold my DX90.
> 
> The warranty's gone the moment the seal is broken right?


 
It shouldn't be.  That was the whole point of the DIY.  _My Bad...didn't see the entry about giving up after-sales support._





 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## ClieOS

tobias89 said:


> Yup. Doesn't seem to fix the problem. Haven't used it for about a month or so since I sold my DX90.
> 
> The warranty's gone the moment the seal is broken right?


 
  
 Have you tried reset yet? Other things to try: unplug battery and use a new cable.
  


hk_sends said:


> It shouldn't be.  That was the whole point of the DIY.
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is clearly stated since the beginning of sale.


----------



## HK_sends

clieos said:


> It is clearly stated since the beginning of sale.


 
_My Bad...I didn't see the entry about giving up after-sales support._




 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 -HK sends


----------



## Tobias89

clieos said:


> Have you tried reset yet? Other things to try: unplug battery and use a new cable.
> 
> 
> It is clearly stated since the beginning of sale.


 

 I've tried a new cable. Seems to work just fine as well. Will try unplugging the battery or resetting it tonight!


----------



## Tobias89

Nothing seems to work.
  
 When i plug my iem in, but not all the way, holding it at a point where it is halfway in, I can listen to both L/R. When its all the way in, its only R. How to fix this?


----------



## ClieOS

tobias89 said:


> Nothing seems to work.
> 
> When i plug my iem in, but not all the way, holding it at a point where it is halfway in, I can listen to both L/R. When its all the way in, its only R. How to fix this


 
  
 If you are handy with electronics and has a multimeter, I'll suggest feeding a test tone into your E12DIY and measure the 3.5mm socket soldering pad directly. There might be a chance that it is just the 3.5mm's contact pins in the headphone jack is loose. Or you can contact FiiO and see if they are willing to fix it at cost.


----------



## palermo

Finnaly I open the enclosure of E12A. I know perhaps wrong thread, but I think it almost the same.


----------



## pietcux

How could 





palermo said:


> Finnaly I open the enclosure of E12A. I know perhaps wrong thread, but I think it almost the same.



How could you open it without breaking the bass boost switch?


----------



## palermo

pietcux said:


> How could
> How could you open it without breaking the bass boost switch?


 
 Haha, almost frustrated to find out how it could, apparently so easy by pulled the bass boost knob out, gouged by flat tip screw drive


----------



## Hifi59

After going through almost every combo of opamps and buffers that came with my E12DIY, I AM SOLD ON THE OPA604 /LME49600 combo. I am using Hifiman 560 headphones and Psb M4U2 sealed headphones. 

While there were combos that were good, this one is best. Smoooooth, open and airy without a hint of edginess.
I have been listening for a week straight and I still have no desire to experiment any further.


----------



## funkforfood

I'm trying to shape the sound of my e12 on one of my headphones, an old sennheiser hd565.
 The headphones, sounds pretty bright, with a tendency to sound a bit harsh and aggressive.
 The midrange is rather dry, and the bass is extended but light and slightly back.
 I'm currently using the combo OPA1611 + LME49600.
 I'd like to warm up a bit the sound of these sennheiser, preserving the openness and transparency at the top.
 I need a sounds open and airy but as much as possible smooth and free of bitterness.
 What do you recommend me to try?


----------



## Fiiorless

I would suggest swapping the OPA1611 for MUSES02 and stay with the LME49600. It should give you what you are looking for, make certain the MUSES02 is genuine.


----------



## ClieOS

funkforfood said:


> I'd like to warm up a bit the sound of these sennheiser, preserving the openness and transparency at the top.
> I need a sounds open and airy but as much as possible smooth and free of bitterness.


 
  
 That's a tall order, as warmth always cuts into openness / transparency.
  
 If you really want silky smoothness and warmth, OPA627 is the obvious choice. MUSES01 will also make my list as well. MUSES02 isn't as warm as OPA627 or MUSES01, but it probably has better balance between warmth and transparency that you are looking for.
  
 As said, there are a lot of fake MUSES out there so be careful where you get yours.


----------



## mrmoto050

fiiorless said:


> I would suggest swapping the OPA1611 for MUSES02 and stay with the LME49600. It should give you what you are looking for, make certain the MUSES02 is genuine.


 
 +1, that is what I have setup in mine. Airy and dynamic soundstage.


----------



## funkforfood

fiiorless said:


> make certain the MUSES02 is genuine.


 
  
 Thanks!
 You know where I can buy safely in europe?


clieos said:


> That's a tall order, as warmth always cuts into openness / transparency.


 
  
 So, i have to deduce that OPA627 sounds somewhat "veiled"?
  
 Thanks to all!


----------



## ClieOS

funkforfood said:


> So, i have to deduce that OPA627 sounds somewhat "veiled"?
> 
> Thanks to all!


 
  
_Relatively speaking_ and compared to something brighter, more analytical and transparent, say NE5322 / NJM5322 or OPA827, then yes.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello all - I'm just hearing about this DIY project but was considering if tube amps are better for me, so you can consider me a skeptic at this point. That would be excellent if some of you can answer a few of my questions. And if it's already been answered that's OK to just post a link to the page of the answer.
  

Is this DIY unit prone to breaking easily? I mean changing the parts on a semi-frequent basis, does that drastically increase the likelyhood that the whole unit will go kaput? (basing this on if I'm careful)
Approx. how would you compare this to a tube amp? I know that's probably opening up a larger question, but below are my sound preferences
Specifically about how would you compare this to a tube amp, in terms of clarity, punchyness, sound stage, etc.?
  
 After testing several amps at a head-fi meeting I discovered I seem to like tube amps, or even solid state / tube amp hybrids the best so I'm basically wondering if I should still go with this E12 DIY or not. The other amps I'm considering are Schiit Vali and Little Dot MK3 / MK4.
_(I prefer a fairly flat sound signature that is punchy/dynamic, slightly warm and highs that are detailed yet not harsh)_


----------



## K.T.

This combination has not been discussed much, but I find the combination of OPA627 + LME49600 to be just great. Well worth a listen.

I find it to be on par with MUSES02 and MUSES01, but all in combination with the LME49600.

These really euphonic and musical chips have a special synergy with the leaner, more open LME49600.

All different, but all really great.


----------



## K.T.

decentlevi said:


> Hello all - I'm just hearing about this DIY project but was considering if tube amps are better for me, so you can consider me a skeptic at this point. That would be excellent if some of you can answer a few of my questions. And if it's already been answered that's OK to just post a link to the page of the answer.
> 
> 
> Is this DIY unit prone to breaking easily? I mean changing the parts on a semi-frequent basis, does that drastically increase the linkelyhood that the whole unit will go kaput? (basing this on if I'm careful)
> ...




LOL...I predict you will end up with both sooner or later.

If you are looking for a portable amp, the E12DIY is a fantastic choice. It's even great as an all-arounder, for portable and home use.

But if you like tubes and are looking for a home system, by all means, pursue tubes first.

Both the E12DIY and a good tube amp can be very musical. Well excecuted tubes do offer a sense of organic fluidity that's very difficult for solid state to approach, however. If you've ever heard a good single-ended triode amp (like 300B or 2A3) driving horn speakers or high efficiency full-range single driver speakers (like Lowther or Altec), you know how addictive this sound signature can be.

But you do have to play around a lot with tubes. System matching is key. And you have a whole world of tube rolling to explore. Often the stock tubes you receive really mask the true potential of a tube amp.

If you want to start with tubes on a budget, the Schiit Vali is great. It's a hybrid that has a good dose of that tube magic, and it pairs well with a wide range of cans. I've had great success with mine and am currently using it in my bedside system.

The Darkvoice SE336 is also a good amp, but on the thick and dark side. Tube rolling is indicated here, and also very careful system matching. Maybe too much work for a first tube amp.

I've heard great things about the Bottlehead Crack and Prject Ember amps, but haven't had a chance to build either of mine, yet, so can't say from experience. But these are both worth looking into.

I also just received a Little Dot MkIII. It sounds good, has that tube lushness and warmth, but far too early for me to make an assessment . This seems to be a widely loved amp, however.

I also have used a tube based Berning Micro ZOTL for years, and that has been nice, too. Sort of an early hybrid design. Apparently, they are re-releasing it in the near future.

Yeah, if tubes is what you want, go for it. There are a lot of great choices these days. They all sound a bit different, so I recommend looking into the go-to tube amps, research them, and go for the one that seems right to you.

I bet you'll still pick up the E12DIY at some point (if they're still available) for portable listening.

Good luck!


----------



## Loquah

I fully agree with the points above - perfectly stated, K.T.

In relation to the original question, I'd start be considering if portability is important because a desktop, mains powered amp will be more versatile and perform better thank most portables (unless using earphones only).

Check out the Bottlehead Comparison thread for some good tube options and discussion too.


----------



## Niels78

Hello,
  
 Iam new here! Can anybody tel me a good site where i can buy these opamps?
  
 Thanks


----------



## nmatheis

Digikey, Mouser, Newark13 are good places to start.


----------



## Hifi59

Are opa627 chips available to just plug in like the supplied opamps? If, can someone link me to it? Is it a 627,627x,627au?


----------



## Reima

hifi59 said:


> Are opa627 chips available to just plug in like the supplied opamps? If, can someone link me to it? Is it a 627,627x,627au?


 
 No, the opa627 are single opamps and need to be mounted on one of the single to dual adapters that were supplied with the e12diy.


----------



## imackler

So basically, I want a really good e12 for my hd600. If I purchase a e12diy and never open it, will it stay under warranty? Is it worth 2x as much as the e12 if i don't upgrade it? I'd like a powerful e12a... Basically.


----------



## ClieOS

imackler said:


> So basically, I want a really good e12 for my hd600. If I purchase a e12diy and never open it, will it stay under warranty? Is it worth 2x as much as the e12 if i don't upgrade it? I'd like a powerful e12a... Basically.


 
  
 While you will have your warranty intact by not opening it up, a stock E12DIY comes with AD8620 and therefore won't be exactly like E12A with its MUSES02.


----------



## nmatheis

imackler said:


> So basically, I want a really good e12 for my hd600. If I purchase a e12diy and never open it, will it stay under warranty? Is it worth 2x as much as the e12 if i don't upgrade it? I'd like a powerful e12a... Basically.




The whole point is to open it and play around, though :blink:


----------



## Poimandres

How does the amp section compare to the leckerton uha 6s mk II's amp?


----------



## imackler

If anyone has an experience in comparing the following, do you prefer the E12, E12 DIY (Stock) or E12A w/ the HD600 or HD650? Fiio rates all of them up to 300ohms, but I see their power output varies a bit. Thanks! (I'll ask on the other threads as well.)


----------



## funkforfood

Hi all!
 I'm thinking of buying a HD600, someone has ever tried them with E12DIY ?, it's able to drive it well?


----------



## mrmoto050

funkforfood said:


> Hi all!
> I'm thinking of buying a HD600, someone has ever tried them with E12DIY ?, it's able to drive it well?


 

@funkforfood Ample power to drive the HD600's. I have the E12DIY with a Muse02,LME49600 setup and it powers mine up with no issues. It also drives my D70(250ohm) and D90(250ohm) with no problems at all.


----------



## funkforfood

Thanks!


----------



## mrmoto050




----------



## nmatheis

Anyone tried it with AKG K55x series HP? If so, what buf/opamp combo do you like?


----------



## Hifi59

reima said:


> No, the opa627 are single opamps and need to be mounted on one of the single to dual adapters that were supplied with the e12diy.




Do I need 2 627 amps? Are they mono? Is this the reason why I would need the dual adapter to mount the chips?


----------



## Loquah

hifi59 said:


> Do I need 2 627 amps? Are they mono? Is this the reason why I would need the dual adapter to mount the chips?


 
  
 Yes. They are mono so you will need 2 on a suitable adapter (as provided with the DIY)


----------



## ClassicalViola

Hi, fellow E12DIY-ers!
  
 I have actually been using the E12DIY for a year, mainly just swapping opamps and buffers. However, I have not tried tweaking the bandwidth of the amp and so was wondering whether I could get some tips from those of you who have done it. The user manual only has a very brief and simplified guide to changing the bandwidth and to me, isn't detailed enough for me to be confident about doing it.
  
 Would I need any additional tools other than the two resistors provided in the tin to perform the bandwidth change? What about the two little rectangular pieces also in the tin? What are they for?
  
 And also, what are the benefits of changing the bandwidth?
  
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## NegoNeo

Tell me please, OPA827 I need two pieces? Or one piece as a Muse?


----------



## T.R.A.N.C.E.

^ Two, noobs.


----------



## NegoNeo

Thank you.
 Here's another question.
 I wanted to buy buffer HA-5002, but there are different HA2, HA3, HA4, HA7
 Which suited me, and if there is a big difference between them?


----------



## T.R.A.N.C.E.

The 5002 buffer needs a pin out conversion to work, none of the versions work standalone, easiest way is to purchase a set that has already been converted from headfi member hiflight: http://www.head-fi.org/u/22191/hiflight


----------



## ClieOS

negoneo said:


> Thank you.
> Here's another question.
> I wanted to buy buffer HA-5002, but there are different HA2, HA3, HA4, HA7
> Which suited me, and if there is a big difference between them?


 
  
 They are referring to the different packaging. Basically you want HA9, or SOIC8 packaging, as it is the only one that will fit inside E12DIY.
  
 Then you'll need two of the special HA-5002 BrownDog adapter. How to mount them correctly has been mentioned in the past in this thread, so go and read them.
  
 ...or buy a pair from HiFlight.


----------



## ClassicalViola

classicalviola said:


> Hi, fellow E12DIY-ers!
> 
> I have actually been using the E12DIY for a year, mainly just swapping opamps and buffers. However, I have not tried tweaking the bandwidth of the amp and so was wondering whether I could get some tips from those of you who have done it. The user manual only has a very brief and simplified guide to changing the bandwidth and to me, isn't detailed enough for me to be confident about doing it.
> 
> ...


 
 Let me answer my own question(s) - if you're not sure what you're dealing with, it's probably best to just leave it the way it is.


----------



## nmatheis

Hi all. Curious if any of you are using E12 DIY with HiFiMan HE400. If so, what buffer + opamp are you liking?


----------



## ClassicalViola

These days I just randomly pick an op amp without looking at the marking on the chip (obviously single chanel op amps look more similar to each other than to dual chanel op amps) and plug it into my E12DIY. I listen for a few days / weeks and think about how I feel about the combination in the amp, and then only open the amp to take a closer look at the marking on the chip to see which one it is. I feel this really helps to free one of potential biases and other opinions which may influence one's impressions of the sound. I found that to be a really fun way to play with the amp. How's everyone feeling about their E12DIY in general these days?


----------



## nmatheis

Interesting approach ClassicalViola!

Might just have to give that a try...


----------



## ClassicalViola

nmatheis said:


> Interesting approach @ClassicalViola!
> 
> Might just have to give that a try...


 
 Go go go! It's really FUN and you'll discover that even just among the stock op amps there are jewels... I found that it really helps me appreciate the sound more and think less about the model number of the op amps etc.


----------



## Loquah

So have you found an unexpected favourite?


----------



## carterxl

I have a noob question.
  
 Is it woth to keep the FiiO E12DIY (no Muses) or does it make sense to switch to FiiO E12E with the Muses allready in.
  
 Is it all about changing to a slightly different sounds, where at the end most of the experienced users end with the Muses?


----------



## nmatheis

carterxl said:


> I have a noob question.
> 
> Is it woth to keep the FiiO E12DIY (no Muses) or does it make sense to switch to FiiO E12E with the Muses allready in.
> 
> Is it all about changing to a slightly different sounds, where at the end most of the experienced users end with the Muses?




You're talking about two different beasts!

E12 DIY has mo' powah & you can tailor the basic sound to your liking. 

E12A has less power and isn't customizable but does have a subtle but very clean bass boost implementation. 

What're you looking to drive with the amp and what's your objective?


----------



## carterxl

Thanks for the fast reply. That's what I wanted to hear. There are differences in bass even if I use the same OP Amps. That helps. So I will try to get a 12E and compare it to my DIY.


----------



## nmatheis

carterxl said:


> Thanks for the fast reply. That's what I wanted to hear. There are differences in bass even if I use the same OP Amps. That helps. So I will try to get a 12E and compare it to my DIY.




Oh yeah, you can alter the DIY's basic sound signature to your taste or to synergize with the rest of your setup. That's the beauty of the DIY. Out of the stock opamps, I really liked the AD797. 

Right now I've got OPA627 in. Haven't listened to it in a bit though, as I've had other gear passing through my hands for testing.


----------



## Loquah

carterxl said:


> I have a noob question.
> 
> Is it woth to keep the FiiO E12DIY (no Muses) or does it make sense to switch to FiiO E12E with the Muses allready in.
> 
> Is it all about changing to a slightly different sounds, where at the end most of the experienced users end with the Muses?




The MUSES01 isn't all it's cracked up to be IMO. It's all personal opinion of course, but I would keep the DIY and see if you can buy / borrow a Muses chip before letting go of the amazing flexibility offered by the DIY.


----------



## ClieOS

loquah said:


> The MUSES01 isn't all it's cracked up to be IMO. It's all personal opinion of course, but I would keep the DIY and see if you can buy / borrow a Muses chip before letting go of the amazing flexibility offered by the DIY.


 
  
 Do note that E12A has MUSES02, not MUSES01. The two are not identical sounding.


----------



## carterxl

That is also a good proposal, I will try to get 2  Muses01. But in Europe it is not that easy.


----------



## Loquah

clieos said:


> Do note that E12A has MUSES02, not MUSES01. The two are not identical sounding.




Oh, sorry, my error. Thanks for the correction.


----------



## chefboyarlee

Sorry noob question. I am looking for an e12a to power my bowers p7s as I was told it's a great combo. Can I configure the diy to be like the e12a. Only reason I ask is there is a used diy for sale on the board.


----------



## nmatheis

chefboyarlee said:


> Sorry noob question. I am looking for an e12a to power my bowers p7s as I was told it's a great combo. Can I configure the diy to be like the e12a. Only reason I ask is there is a used diy for sale on the board.




Yes, you can! Pop in the supplied LME49600 buffer, buy a Muses02 opamp, determine whether or not you need to grind the inside of the DIY case, pop in the Muses02, and you're good to go. It'll be more powerful than E12A, though. And it won't have the E12A's very tasteful and subdued bass boost.


----------



## ClieOS

chefboyarlee said:


> Sorry noob question. I am looking for an e12a to power my bowers p7s as I was told it's a great combo. Can I configure the diy to be like the e12a. Only reason I ask is there is a used diy for sale on the board.


 
  
 If you drop a MUSES02 (which is typically $50 from a reputable seller) inside E12DIY and it will sound exactly like E12A.


----------



## nmatheis

clieos said:


> If you drop a MUSES02 (which is typically $50 from a reputable seller) inside E12DIY and it will sound exactly like E12A.




It won't have higher gain than E12A?


----------



## ClieOS

nmatheis said:


> It won't have higher gain than E12A?


 
  
 Yes, but I volume matched the two and can't tell them apart. RMAA also shows minimum difference (again, volume matched). For 95% of the headphone out there (*minus the 5% that is (1) sensitive enough to pick up the difference in noise floor or (2) power hunger enough to need the extra power), I reckon there is no practical difference audibly.


----------



## nmatheis

clieos said:


> Yes, but I volume matched the two and can't tell them apart. RMAA also shows minimum difference (again, volume matched). For 95% of the headphone out there (*minus the 5% that is (1) sensitive enough to pick up the difference in noise floor or (2) power hunger enough to need the extra power), I reckon there is no practical difference audibly.




I was thinking more of the use one would get out of the volume pot on E12A vs DIY - not necessarily any alteration of sound signature.


----------



## ClieOS

nmatheis said:


> I was thinking more of the use one would get out of the volume pot on E12A vs DIY - not necessarily any alteration of sound signature.


 
  
 Then yes again. I think E12DIY has a high gain around +20dB or so, vs. the +12dB on E12A. The reason on smaller gain is also a direct result of having a smaller voltage supply rail (and thus smaller voltage swing), but give a darker background.


----------



## RedTwilight

Been loving the E12 DIY sound and whoa man didn't expect the high gain to be quite so high. 0.o I've managed to drive the HD600 and R70x directly from it without any perceptible loss in quality compared to the IFI Stack (Or maybe my ears aren't up to the task).
  
 In any case, in recent days, it seems that the DIY will tend to cut off sound in the right channel, meaning that when i crank up the volume, only the left channel plays. This has happened quite often already, and requires several resets (turning off and on) to rectify. One symptom is that when I turn on the amp, there is occasionally a small, high pitched 'beep' in the right channel. After that sometimes it doesn't work but sometimes it does. Any idea what might be the cause and how to rectify it?


----------



## Loquah

You could try removing and reinstalling the buffers and op amp. It could be a poor connection.

What buffers and op amp are you using?


----------



## nmatheis

HA5002???


----------



## RedTwilight

loquah said:


> You could try removing and reinstalling the buffers and op amp. It could be a poor connection.
> 
> What buffers and op amp are you using?


 
  
 Hmm ok I'll try when I get back. Using LME49600 and OPA1161 if I recall correctly.


----------



## Loquah

Ok. I was wondering if you might be using a DIP8 style like MUSES as I have had poor connections with those sometimes (fixed by re-seating the chip). The stock ones you're using are rarely an issue so let us know how you go with the re-seat.

Also, try checking if it happens with different headphones and with a different input cable. It's possibly there's a poor connection or short at one of the plugs / cables


----------



## RedTwilight

loquah said:


> Ok. I was wondering if you might be using a DIP8 style like MUSES as I have had poor connections with those sometimes (fixed by re-seating the chip). The stock ones you're using are rarely an issue so let us know how you go with the re-seat.
> 
> Also, try checking if it happens with different headphones and with a different input cable. It's possibly there's a poor connection or short at one of the plugs / cables


 
  
 It's happened with different headphones but have tried with different cables yet. My interconnect is a diy so that's possible too.


----------



## alexshulgin

Hello i got myself this amp , and i was realy dissapointed ,i pair it with fiio x3 and shure se 215,also i own a pair of ath es10 but both shure and ath sounded awful with the amp out of the box,you have any ideas how to make it sound better???because with e 12 diy there is no bass and overall sound quality sounds poor.i wanted it to bring much more detailed bass and the overall quality ,instead it just got louder and bad sounding((((
Thank you very much for your attention!


----------



## snellemin

I EQ with the DIY E12 most of the time.  With the bassy headphones I use Muses01 opamp and LME49600 buffers.  For IEM's I use Muses02 with the same LME49600 buffers.


----------



## ClassicalViola

alexshulgin said:


> Hello i got myself this amp , and i was realy dissapointed ,i pair it with fiio x3 and shure se 215,also i own a pair of ath es10 but both shure and ath sounded awful with the amp out of the box,you have any ideas how to make it sound better???because with e 12 diy there is no bass and overall sound quality sounds poor.i wanted it to bring much more detailed bass and the overall quality ,instead it just got louder and bad sounding((((
> Thank you very much for your attention!


 
 Have you double checked that you're connecting the LINE OUT (not the HEADPHONE OUT) of the X3 to the LINE IN of the E12DIY?


----------



## alexshulgin

Well maybe i am stupid ,but not that much,of coirse it it hooked to linear output.
And sound is still better from fiio x3 solo ,like more bassy,more bodied sound i guess...
I dont know whats the reason(((


----------



## alexshulgin

classicalviola said:


> Have you double checked that you're connecting the LINE OUT (not the HEADPHONE OUT) of the X3 to the LINE IN of the E12DIY?



Sorry the image is wrong but yes i hooked through the linear and then to amp


----------



## alexshulgin




----------



## alexshulgin

And thats the inside


----------



## ClieOS

alexshulgin said:


>


 
  
 Judging from the pictures, the problem is not on X3 but on your E12DIY - you connected X3's line-out *wrongly *to E12DIY's headphone-out (instead of analog-in). I am surprised you even get sound out of it.
  
 In order words, please swap the two plugs on E12DIY's side.


----------



## alexshulgin

I know thats how it should be,still.....
Makes it obly louder


----------



## alexshulgin

clieos said:


> Judging from the pictures, the problem is not on X3 but on your E12DIY - you connected X3's line-out *wrongly* to E12DIY's headphone-out (instead of analog-in). I am surprised you even get sound out of it.
> 
> In order words, please swap the two plugs on E12DIY's side.


----------



## alexshulgin

Still more bassy more spacious sound from fiio x3 solo


----------



## ClieOS

alexshulgin said:


> Still more bassy more spacious sound from fiio x3 solo


 
  
 Try different opamp and buffer?


----------



## RedTwilight

An amp isn't some magical thing that adds rainbows to everything, it just enables headphones to be run to full potential. If you put noisy files in, it'll just become louder noise.


----------



## nmatheis

It's actually not surprising that you're getting bassier, fuller sound from X3. That's its sound signature, whereas E12 DIY in stock configuration has a more neutral, cleaner sound. In comparison, E12 DIY should sound less warm. 

If you're after warmer sound than X3, get a different amp. ZO maybe?


----------



## alexshulgin

I dint put noisy files in to it , i listened to 24/192 metallica,atb and truth be said my fiio x3 drives much better sound,when i hook up with the diy ,it gets louder and the sound gets all boring,no body to it





redtwilight said:


> An amp isn't some magical thing that adds rainbows to everything, it just enables headphones to be run to full potential. If you put noisy files in, it'll just become louder noise.


----------



## nmatheis

alexshulgin: See my post right above yours.


----------



## alexshulgin

Dont kbow why but it has a neggative effect on sound quality of music(((





alexshulgin said:


> I dint put noisy files in to it , i listened to 24/192 metallica,atb and truth be said my fiio x3 drives much better sound,when i hook up with the diy ,it gets louder and the sound gets all boring,no body to it


----------



## alexshulgin

I hoped to get more detail and bass out of this combination(((
It seems i investe





nmatheis said:


> It's actually not surprising that you're getting bassier, fuller sound from X3. That's its sound signature, whereas E12 DIY in stock configuration has a more neutral, cleaner sound. In comparison, E12 DIY should sound less warm.
> 
> If you're after warmer sound than X3, get a different amp. ZO maybe?


d in disapointment(((


----------



## nmatheis

alexshulgin: If you're getting more detail out of your X3, then it sounds like something is wrong with your E12 DIY. I've got both X3 and E12 DIY + a lot of opamps, and E12 DIY details wins hands-down.


----------



## alexshulgin

nmatheis said:


> alexshulgin: If you're getting more detail out of your X3, then it sounds like something is wrong with your E12 DIY. I've got both X3 and E12 DIY + a lot of opamps, and E12 DIY details wins hands-down.






What opamps are you using??? Do u get more bass out of diy???
What are you using it for then?what kind of music?

I was badly dissapointed i must say((


----------



## RedTwilight

alexshulgin said:


> I dint put noisy files in to it , i listened to 24/192 metallica,atb and truth be said my fiio x3 drives much better sound,when i hook up with the diy ,it gets louder and the sound gets all boring,no body to it


 
  
 I see, that's 1 factor taken care of then, thanks for clarifying.
  


nmatheis said:


> @alexshulgin: If you're getting more detail out of your X3, then it sounds like something is wrong with your E12 DIY. I've got both X3 and E12 DIY + a lot of opamps, and E12 DIY details wins hands-down.


 
  
 I agree with that, I find the stock E12DIY gives much better transparency, nuance and soundstage than the from my X3 direct. Perhaps it's just not your preferred signature? If you prefer warmer sound, you could try the OPA2227.


----------



## RedTwilight

alexshulgin said:


> What opamps are you using??? Do u get more bass out of diy???
> What are you using it for then?what kind of music?
> 
> I was badly dissapointed i must say((


 
  
 The DIY isn't a bass boost amp, it boosts all frequencies pretty evenly so bass won't become emphasised more. If you prefer bassier sound, maybe the E12 will suit your tastes more. That bass boost really packs a punch.
  
 Edit: In case it helps, I'm using OPA827 now but i did like the OPA1611. Music is mostly FLAC of Waraku Rock (Japanese Traditional Fusion Rock, acoustic with electric instruments)


----------



## alexshulgin

redtwilight said:


> I see, that's 1 factor taken care of then, thanks for clarifying.
> 
> 
> I agree with that, I find the stock E12DIY gives much better transparency, nuance and soundstage than the from my X3 direct. Perhaps it's just not your preferred signature? If you prefer warmer sound, you could try the OPA2227.





Doest this opa2227 come with diy?
I was actualy expecting that ill add sweet creem in to a fresh strawbery(
Insread my strawberries begin to taste disgusting with diy((


----------



## nmatheis

That's why I recommended checking out digizoid's ZO amp: LINK.

Want moar bass? ZO's gonna give you *MOAR BASS!!!*


----------



## alexshulgin

nmatheis said:


> That's why I recommended checking out digizoid's ZO amp: LINK.
> 
> Want moar bass? ZO's gonna give you *MOAR BASS!!!*






I wanted overall better sound quality,wider scene and punchier bass.
Instead nothing,for some reason fiio x3-1st gen drive way more interesting fullier sounnd


----------



## alexshulgin

I wanted overall better sound quality.
Like more detail and quality to it,punchier bass,deeper bass.
But for some unknown to me reasons fiio x3-1st gen delivers much better sound quality,like nore interesting ,fullier.


I will try to return it to store,though i already tried to switch opamps(


----------



## ClieOS

I think you just prefer the sound signature of X3 over that of E12DIY, and you seem to be buying amp for the wrong reasons.


----------



## RedTwilight

As I said, the amp just improves whatever is already there, it won't give deeper bass if the deeper bass isn't already there. Don't forget that the headphone also affects in a big way, bigger than the amp. Same for punchier bass. If the headphones/iems you use just aren't punchy enough, no amp will make them punchier. 
  
 File mastering too, an amp may reveal deficiencies in mastering. I don't have anything as high as yours but I do have FLAC that sound much worse and compressed and flat than even an 128kbps MP3 of the same song. Mind blowing yea. But it happens. The FLAC was a CD rip even.
  
 Or as @ClieOS said it's entirely possible that you just like the X3 sound.


----------



## alexshulgin

redtwilight said:


> As I said, the amp just improves whatever is already there, it won't give deeper bass if the deeper bass isn't already there. Don't forget that the headphone also affects in a big way, bigger than the amp. Same for punchier bass. If the headphones/iems you use just aren't punchy enough, no amp will make them punchier.
> 
> File mastering too, an amp may reveal deficiencies in mastering. I don't have anything as high as yours but I do have FLAC that sound much worse and compressed and flat than even an 128kbps MP3 of the same song. Mind blowing yea. But it happens. The FLAC was a CD rip even.
> 
> ...




Hope they will make a return because i guess amp just is something not for me


----------



## nmatheis

Just had a scare when installing HA5002 buffers. Turned it on after confirming pin placement was correct, and power and charging LEDs started blinking and it shut off. I thought I fried it, but it was just running low on batteries. Whew!
  
 I hear a low-level hum with HA5002 that I don't get with the other buffers. Hum volume is constant - doesn't increase as I turn up the volume pot. Anyone else get this?
  
 Any new favorite opamp + buffer combos out there?


----------



## RedTwilight

nmatheis said:


> Just had a scare when installing HA5002 buffers. Turned it on after confirming pin placement was correct, and power and charging LEDs started blinking and it shut off. I thought I fried it, but it was just running low on batteries. Whew!
> 
> I hear a low-level hum with HA5002 that I don't get with the other buffers. Hum volume is constant - doesn't increase as I turn up the volume pot. Anyone else get this?
> 
> Any new favorite opamp + buffer combos out there?


 
  
 JRC4556 + LME49600 was very transparent and airy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 A couple of my frineds commented that it was over-detailed though. Now using OPA827 + LME49600. It's not quite as transparent as the JRC but very natural sounding and musical. I really quite like it.


----------



## nmatheis

Hey RedTwilight, that's what I was using before I swapped the HA5002 in. Now I popped in BUF634 with the OPA827.


----------



## RedTwilight

nmatheis said:


> Hey @RedTwilight, that's what I was using before I swapped the HA5002 in. Now I popped in BUF634 with the OPA827.


 
  
 Any differences in sound that you observed?


----------



## nmatheis

Not yet. I swapped it in after the HA5002 because I was getting a low-level him with HA5002 that I don't get with BUF634 or LME49600. Honestly, once I have the money and find one in good shape for a good price, I'd love to pick up a second DIY (preferably gold) so I can really A/B them and keep two configurations around. It's a sweet amp!


----------



## landroni

loquah said:


> I received a bunch of chips yesterday including AD8599, AD8066, OPA2107, LM4562 and others I can't recall. Have nearly finished burning in and will then complete a full comparison with each op amp and buffer combo (incl. the op amps that came with the DIY). Happy to share the sheet for others to add to once it's done. Or, if anyone beats me to it, happy to share my notes for addition to your work.


 

 I know this is old... Did you ever get the chance to make your notes public? I'd love to get a look at your impressions of the various non-stock opamps...


----------



## Loquah

landroni said:


> I know this is old... Did you ever get the chance to make your notes public? I'd love to get a look at your impressions of the various non-stock opamps...




I think I posted some impressions somewhere in this thread, but I can summarise:

OPA627 is easily my favourite. It's smooth, but detailed and creates a great sense of space in the sound, especially with BUF634

OPA827 comes in close behind with a slightly brighter sound and just a hair less space

LME49990 is also excellent - quite similar to OPA827, but a little more precise-sounding. Good for those who like lots of detail and clarity.

MUSES01 is actually not one of my favourites. I find it a bit flat and lifeless in it's presentation compared to some others, but it's still an upgrade on most of the stock opamps.

NJM5532 is a budget beast and comes really close to my favourites. It sounds slightly rawer than the OPA827, but still excellent.

HA5002 buffers are great, but don't play well with all the opamps so I've found myself using BUF634 mostly.

I can't remember my thoughts on the AD chips, but none quite matched these.


----------



## landroni

loquah said:


> I think I posted some impressions somewhere in this thread, but I can summarise:
> 
> OPA627 is easily my favourite. It's smooth, but detailed and creates a great sense of space in the sound, especially with BUF634
> 
> ...


 

 Awesome! Thank you so much. I went through some 15-20 pages of impressions, but at one point I simply gave up. I'll probably go back sifting through all that material some other time, but it'll likely take days/weeks.

  
 Re MUSES01... Is it possible you ended up with a fake chip?

  
 Re AD... Some posters had suggested that the AD8599 approaches an end-game op-amp with the E12DIY. Did you get a chance to try this one?


----------



## Loquah

landroni said:


> Awesome! Thank you so much. I went through some 15-20 pages of impressions, but at one point I simply gave up. I'll probably go back sifting through all that material some other time, but it'll likely take days/weeks.
> 
> 
> Re MUSES01... Is it possible you ended up with a fake chip?
> ...


 
  
 My MUSES01 is definitely genuine - it's just not as good as the very best alternatives - very good, but not great IMO
  
 I have the AD8599, but I'm not 100% sold on it. If OPA627 / OPA827 / NJM5532 are tier 1A and 1B then the MUSES are in tier 2A and the AD8599, AD8620 and AD8066 would be tier 2B or 3


----------



## landroni

loquah said:


> My MUSES01 is definitely genuine - it's just not as good as the very best alternatives - very good, but not great IMO
> 
> 
> I have the AD8599, but I'm not 100% sold on it. If OPA627 / OPA827 / NJM5532 are tier 1A and 1B then the MUSES are in tier 2A and the AD8599, AD8620 and AD8066 would be tier 2B or 3


 

 Very interesting. At the beginning I recall you preferred OPA1611 over all other stock E12DIY opamps, but I suspect it's fallen down the order...
  
 Concerning compatibility with the E12DIY case, am I correct that all of OPA627, OPA827, AD8599 are SOIC-8 and as such are perfect fits (i.e. require no grinding of the case)?
  
 I'm new to the game and I'd like to avoid ordering a batch of incompatible chips... (From what I see, both NJM5532 and MUSES01/02 are DIP-8, and will require grinding.)


----------



## Loquah

landroni said:


> Very interesting. At the beginning I recall you preferred OPA1611 over all other stock E12DIY opamps, but I suspect it's fallen down the order...
> 
> Concerning compatibility with the E12DIY case, am I correct that all of OPA627, OPA827, AD8599 are SOIC-8 and as such are perfect fits (i.e. require no grinding of the case)?
> 
> I'm new to the game and I'd like to avoid ordering a batch of incompatible chips... (From what I see, both NJM5532 and MUSES01/02 are DIP-8, and will require grinding.)


 
  
 Correct, re: OPA1611. It's a good op amp, but can be a little extreme with it's presentation so it sounds highly detailed, but is not as "true to life" as some of my favourites. Still, I think it's one of the better op amps in the stock kit.
  
 You're correct about the OPA627/827 and AD8599 too. The NJM & MUSES do require grinding of the case. Honestly, I don't believe it's worth the trouble.


----------



## ClieOS

Whether grinding is required or not depends on your particular E12DIY's casing - if it is a tighter fitting inside, then grinding is required. If not, then obviously no grinding is needed. There are report in this very thread that some E12DIY owner can plug a DIP8 opamp inside without any modification.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> Whether grinding is required or not depends on your particular E12DIY's casing - if it is a tighter fitting inside, then grinding is required. If not, then obviously no grinding is needed. There are report in this very thread that some E12DIY owner can plug a DIP8 opamp inside without any modification.


 

 Is this something measurable?
  
 The thickness of the wall is ~1 mm here. And eyeballing it, it looks like there might be some 0.2mm space between the SOIC-8 chip and the case wall. But of course I can't be sure of that... Is this a tight fitting? 
  
 Here's  a photo:


----------



## nmatheis

landroni: Why not just get a cheap dip8 opamp and see if you can close it?


----------



## landroni

nmatheis said:


> @landroni: Why not just get a cheap dip8 opamp and see if you can close it?


 

 Yeah, that's what I'll probably do. The NJM5532 is cheap enough, and apparently a catch.


----------



## ClieOS

I will definitely recommend what @nmatheis suggested first.


----------



## nmatheis

I did that and found that I did need to grind/file my case. It want too bad, and I can swap opamps at will now


----------



## landroni

nmatheis said:


> I did that and found that I did need to grind/file my case. It want too bad, and I can swap opamps at will now


 

 Has anyone published idiot-proof instructions somewhere? I may have played some grinding video games in my life, but I don't think I ever touched any physical grinding tools...


----------



## nmatheis

ClieOS did in this thread on 12/27/2013


----------



## sstyle

Hi guys. What should I buy to have a max quality sound? MUSES02 + LME49600, right? I need one MUSES or two?


----------



## landroni

sstyle said:


> Hi guys. What should I buy to have a max quality sound? MUSES02 + LME49600, right? I need one MUSES or two?


 

 This recent post by @Loquah has a number of viable suggestions. Read it and subsequent posts. If you get MUSES02 (DIP-8), you may need to grind the case as it may not be able to perfectly fit the chip. So drop-in solutions  (SOIC-8) may be preferable. There are several comprehensive reviews on pages 31, 38, 52, 53, 57 (I stopped reading at that point).
  
 If you're looking for THE best, opinions will diverge and you'll have try them by yourself.


----------



## nmatheis

Here're some notes from ClieOS from earlier in the thread:

NJM5532 + HA-5002 for its neutrality and transparency.
OPA827 + HA-5002 for its balance between smoothness and detail.
OPA627 + BUF634 for warmth and smoothness
MUSES01 + BUF634 for analog like musicality
MUSES02 + BUF634 for overall versatility


----------



## landroni

nmatheis said:


> Here're some notes from @ClieOS from earlier in the thread:
> 
> NJM5532 + HA-5002 for its neutrality and transparency.
> OPA827 + HA-5002 for its balance between smoothness and detail.
> ...


 

 Thanks a lot for compiling this. Regarding the HA-5002, should it also be in SOIC-8 format?


----------



## CH23

nmatheis said:


> Here're some notes from @ClieOS from earlier in the thread:
> 
> NJM5532 + HA-5002 for its neutrality and transparency.
> OPA827 + HA-5002 for its balance between smoothness and detail.
> ...


 

 this makes me want to try some other combos again.
  
 gonna see how i like the Muses01 + BUF634...


----------



## nmatheis

Glad it was a useful re-post CH23


----------



## Loquah

landroni said:


> Thanks a lot for compiling this. Regarding the HA-5002, should it also be in SOIC-8 format?




Yes, but you need a special adapter for the HA-5002 to connect it to the BUF634 pin configuration in the DIY. There are brown dog adapters for this though.


----------



## ClieOS

If you are interested in making your own HA-5002 + BrownDog adapter, read this:


clieos said:


> Okay, my BrownDog order finally came in this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sstyle

landroni said:


> This recent post by @Loquah has a number of viable suggestions. Read it and subsequent posts. If you get MUSES02 (DIP-8), you may need to grind the case as it may not be able to perfectly fit the chip. So drop-in solutions  (SOIC-8) may be preferable. There are several comprehensive reviews on pages 31, 38, 52, 53, 57 (I stopped reading at that point).
> 
> If you're looking for THE best, opinions will diverge and you'll have try them by yourself.


 
 Thanks!
  
 ClieOS said Here that MUSES02 is a best sound, but now I do not know where to buy geniune MUSES. I found some links in this thread, but price from 22$(taobao) to 78$ (mouser)...
  
 And is it true that the E12DIY(with stock op-amp) has a better sound than original E12?


----------



## nmatheis

Try the Japanese store Akizudenshi.


----------



## sstyle

nmatheis said:


> Try the Japanese store Akizudenshi.


 
 Can you please give me a link? Can not find it. Does it ship to other countries?


----------



## sstyle

I think: may be buy an original E12 and change op-amp to MUSES? Will sound quality the same as E12DIY  but cheaper?


----------



## nmatheis

Why not just buy E12A, which has MUSES02?


----------



## sstyle

It is not enough powerful for my HD650.


----------



## sstyle

nmatheis said:


> Try the Japanese store Akizudenshi.


 
 Found it http://akizukidenshi.com/catalog/g/gI-03417/
  
 Anyone know is there some mount adapter for X5-II?


----------



## landroni

sstyle said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> ClieOS said Here that MUSES02 is a best sound, but now I do not know where to buy geniune MUSES. I found some links in this thread, but price from 22$(taobao) to 78$ (mouser)...
> ...


 

 Be careful. The MUSES02 may NOT fit your case, and you may need to grind/adjust your E12DIY case for it to fit. Be sure that you're comfortable with this before you place the order. From what I've read in this thread, there are many fake MUSES01/02 chips sold on the internet, and many have had bad experiences with taobao. If you'd like a genuine chip, I'd bet my money on mouser (and a higher price).
  
 I first had the original E12 but it had an audible noise threshold with my Grados SR225i so returned it back. No such issues with the E12DIY. I'm no expert but I think E12DIY is overall a better engineered device than original E12. This said, using the same chips in E12DIY as in E12, for me the sound was sensibly similar (bar the noise threshold issue).


----------



## sstyle

Thanks! It is a very bad news ( So, I need to choose another good op-amp


----------



## landroni

sstyle said:


> Thanks! It is a very bad news ( So, I need to choose another good op-amp


 

 According to @Loquah, there are better opamps out there than the MUSES01/02. Both OPA627 and OPA827 are SOIC-8 and as such should be perfect fits for E12DIY. 
  
 According to @earfonia, the AD8599 approaches an end-game opamp for E12DIY. Again, it's SOIC-8. 
  
 There may be other top-flight SOIC-8 recommendations around...


----------



## earfonia

landroni said:


> According to @Loquah, there are better opamps out there than the MUSES01/02. Both OPA627 and OPA827 are SOIC-8 and as such should be perfect fits for E12DIY.
> 
> According to @earfonia, the AD8599 approaches an end-game opamp for E12DIY. Again, it's SOIC-8.
> 
> There may be other top-flight SOIC-8 recommendations around...


 
  
 Now I'm using OPA827. 
 Me and my bro ever compared original Muses01/02, for us we prefer Muses01, and to us OPA827 sound quality wise is about in the same category as the Muses01/02, so we choose to use OPA827. 
 OPA827 has slightly better dynamic than AD8599. AD8599 is sweet, smooth, good bass, and good imaging, but slightly behind OPA827 on dynamic. AD8599 is more polite in presentation, while OPA827 has a little more dynamic and more lively.


----------



## sstyle

Thanks guys!


----------



## landroni

sstyle said:


> And is it true that the E12DIY(with stock op-amp) has a better sound than original E12?


 

 BTW, here's what @ClieOS has to say about this:
  
  
_"I'll say E12 is near top-tier that can compete with just about any portable amp around the $250 mark while E12DIY is the top-tier amp that can compete with portable amp of any price range."_
  
 The consensus around here seems to be that the stock chips included in E12DIY don't do the amp full justice, and that investing in superior opamp chips is the way to go. Given the prices for many of the most recommended chips, it's not an incredibly expensive experience...


----------



## sstyle

landroni said:


> The consensus around here seems to be that the stock chips included in E12DIY don't do the amp full justice, and that investing in superior opamp chips is the way to go. Given the prices for many of the most recommended chips, it's not an incredibly expensive experience...


 
  
 But:
  
 Here're some notes from @ClieOS from earlier in the thread:
 OPA627 + BUF634 for warmth and smoothness
  
 Is it a stock op-amp, right? So, as I read in this thread stock op-amp is best, and I can not use MUSES. Right?


----------



## RedTwilight

sstyle said:


> But:
> 
> Here're some notes from @ClieOS from earlier in the thread:
> OPA627 + BUF634 for warmth and smoothness
> ...


 
  
 OPA627 isn't stock, you'll need to get it and solder it onto one of those spare adaptors. As for whether you can uses the MUSES, Try popping in a DIP8 opamp first to see if the case can slide shut without filling/grinding. It so happened that mine was one of the lucky ones so I was able to use OPA2227, TLE2082 and JRC4556. A bit of a squeeze but that was it.


----------



## sstyle

ok. Now I have a good deal. 90$ for E12 and 150$ for DIY version with 627, 827 and HA-5002 included. And can not make a choice. One man told that E12 enough, another that DIY better. But almost twice price.


----------



## RedTwilight

sstyle said:


> ok. Now I have a good deal. 90$ for E12 and 150$ for DIY version with 627, 827 and HA-5002 included. And can not make a choice. One man told that E12 enough, another that DIY better. But almost twice price.


 
  
 Depends on what you need to drive with it and whether you need the bass boost.


----------



## sstyle

redtwilight said:


> Depends on what you need to drive with it and whether you need the bass boost.


 
 Oh..DIY has not a bass boost (( It is a very bad news. Now I find bass boost a good mode in E12. It adds more dynamic, volume, energy.


----------



## RedTwilight

The DIY does has a tremendous high gain, enough to drive the likes of HD600 and ATH-R70X decently, as well as a superbly black background for sensitive iems. It's more for versatility, so if you can live without it then save money.


----------



## nmatheis

sstyle: Buy both and send the E12 DIY to me 

I'd love to have a second DIY to A/B compare different buffer/opamp combinations


----------



## sstyle

nmatheis said:


> @sstyle: Buy both and send the E12 DIY to me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Done.


----------



## nmatheis

No, the E12 DIY should be on my desk :wink_face:


----------



## landroni

nmatheis said:


> Here're some notes from @ClieOS from earlier in the thread:
> 
> NJM5532 + HA-5002 for its neutrality and transparency.
> OPA827 + HA-5002 for its balance between smoothness and detail.
> ...


 

 Did anyone get the chance to compare the E12DIY in non-stock configuration (e.g. using any of the opamps above) against the Centrance Hifi-M8?

  
 I've been suggested in the past that the M8 represented an end-game DAC/AMP in the world of portable music, besting even the likes of iBasso DX100 or AK 240. And while the E12DIY is clearly very good and by default not far behind the M8, from comments in this thread it seems that in its stock setup it reaches only about 60-70% of the amp's full potential. So I'm naturally wondering if the E12DIY can be configured to reach the sonic performance of the M8...


----------



## sstyle

nmatheis said:


> Here're some notes from @ClieOS from earlier in the thread:
> 
> NJM5532 + HA-5002 for its neutrality and transparency.
> OPA827 + HA-5002 for its balance between smoothness and detail.
> ...


 
  
 Who compared OPA827 vs OPA627 with BUF634? I prefer more warm sound.


----------



## Loquah

sstyle said:


> Who compared OPA827 vs OPA627 with BUF634? I prefer more warm sound.




I have both and prefer the OPA627 overall which is good news for you because it's also the warmer of the two


----------



## RedTwilight

sstyle said:


> Done.


 
  
 Try using a (slightly) better interconnect. From normal cable to an OFC one, there's a huge increase in clarity. After that not so much though. Beyond something like the iBasso CB06 (which is still a little overpriced imo) I can't really tell already.


----------



## sstyle

redtwilight said:


> Try using a (slightly) better interconnect. From normal cable to an OFC one, there's a huge increase in clarity. After that not so much though. Beyond something like the iBasso CB06 (which is still a little overpriced imo) I can't really tell already.


 
 Thanks! May be L16/17?


----------



## RedTwilight

sstyle said:


> Thanks! May be L16/17?


 
  
 Would be best if you can give them a try. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Kinda hard to predict the sound. I didn't particularly like it but that's just me or perhaps a result my song choices.
  
 Or you could just stick to the stock one for a couple of months because seriously they do what they need to.
  
 Then when you want to change you'll get that upgrade in sound haha..


----------



## sstyle

loquah said:


> I have both and prefer the OPA627 overall which is good news for you because it's also the warmer of the two


 
 Nice. Thanks!
  
 So I interested in test:
  
 HA-5002 + OPA827
 HA-5002 + OPA627
 BUF634 + OPA827
 BUF634 + OPA627
 LME49600 + OPA827
 LME49600 + OPA627
  
 Ok, if 627 more warmer, I should test
  
 HA-5002 + OPA627
 BUF634 + OPA627
 LME49600 + OPA627
  
 But I read that LME49600 is very close to BUF634. And as result I need to compare HA-5002 vs BUF634.


----------



## Loquah

sstyle said:


> Nice. Thanks!
> 
> So I interested in test:
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's not really accurate. The 5002 sits between the 634 and 49600. I would say it's closer to the 634, but still different enough to be not the same.


----------



## sstyle

OMG. This tests will take a very long time.


----------



## CH23

ended up going for MUSES02 + LM49600.
  
 the buffer seems to increase response, so a tone doesn't flow out, it stops when it should.
  
 the MUSE02, as i previously used the 01, is a bit more bassy, while retaining mids and treble.


----------



## snellemin

My current fav setup is, MUSES8920 + LM49600.  I like this for subbass and "smoothness".  I still prefer the MUSES02 for IEM's.


----------



## sstyle

jamesfiio said:


> to help people discuss which combo is best, just add *a* *poll*.


 
  
 Where is it? Who save a result?
  
 I made a compare table and will try to fill it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Am6Tq5hEK-M2z11wF2ncJYiZJnteRLnod78M4nR_C-g/pubhtml


----------



## ClieOS

sstyle said:


> Where is it? Who save a result?


 
  
 The result is E12A.


----------



## sstyle

This is a best result. But what is second one? Third?


----------



## ClieOS

sstyle said:


> This is a best result. But what is second one? Third?


 

 It really is not a 'best' result, but more like the most popular choice. As you can probably read in this thread, everyone has his/her most/least favorite choice. Given the small sample size of E12DIY owner here at HF, it is by no mean a very accurate representation of everyone's opinion anyway.


----------



## sstyle

hm. I do not know should I buy a muses02 or not. I have a great OPA827/627. And I read here that muses02 very close.


----------



## nmatheis

sstyle said:


> hm. I do not know should I buy a muses02 or not. I have a great OPA827/627. And I read here that muses02 very close.




Enjoy what you've got. Those are two great options. I actually quite liked AD797 from the stock opamps, too.


----------



## sstyle

I found that AD8620 gives more dynamic, energy than AD797. I'm trying to fill the table https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Am6Tq5hEK-M2z11wF2ncJYiZJnteRLnod78M4nR_C-g/pubhtml


----------



## nmatheis

Very thorough


----------



## sstyle

My best combo is: OPA827 + LME49600. Clean, dynamic, detail. Very good for me.


----------



## nmatheis

sstyle said:


> My best combo is: OPA827 + LME49600. Clean, dynamic, detail. Very good for me.




That's what I'm rocking now


----------



## landroni

Does anyone know which opamp will come closest to making E12DIY emulate the Centrance M8?


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> If you are interested in making your own HA-5002 + BrownDog adapter, read this:


 
  

  

 Looking at the pics you posted I'm under the impression that I need to order *2* adapters and *2* HA-5002 chips. Is this correct?
  
 I want to order them from BrownDog with the chips pre-mounted to the bottom (no soldering skills):
 http://cimarrontechnology.com/buf634adapter.aspx


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> Looking at the pics you posted I'm under the impression that I need to order *2* adapters and *2* HA-5002 chips. Is this correct?
> 
> I want to order them from BrownDog with the chips pre-mounted to the bottom (no soldering skills):
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/buf634adapter.aspx


 
  
 BrownDog actually offers pre-mounted HA-5002 these days? That's great. Yep, those are exactly what you need. Be sure to insulate the top if they didn't do it, a piece of sticker or insulating tape will do. Also remember to trim 1mm or so off from each pins.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> BrownDog actually offers pre-mounted HA-5002 these days? That's great. Yep, those are exactly what you need. Be sure to insulate the top if they didn't do it, a piece of sticker or insulating tape will do. Also remember to trim 1mm or so off from each pins.


 

 Yes, they also do pre-mounted OPA627, OPA827, LM4562, LME49990:
 http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
  
 A pity they don't offer AD8599...


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> Yes, they also do pre-mounted OPA627, OPA827, LM4562, LME49990:
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
> 
> A pity they don't offer AD8599...


 
  
 Those I know. What I meant is that they didn't offer pre-mounted HA-5002 when this thread started some 2 years ago.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> Those I know. What I meant is that they didn't offer pre-mounted HA-5002 when this thread started some 2 years ago.


 

 I didn't know I could get the opamps pre-mounted at all. I only discovered this today, and in truth it's a relief as I don't expect to do too well in a "soldering in 13 steps" endeavor...


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> Those I know. What I meant is that they didn't offer pre-mounted HA-5002 when this thread started some 2 years ago.


 

 I have a query wrt this adapter (and pre-mounted components):
 http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
  
 For me it is clear that LM4562 is *dual*-channel (like AD8620 in stock E12DIY), so I need to order just *one* and it will probably fit and work as expected.
  
 But what about the *single*-channel chips? OPA627, OPA827, LME49990? In the stock E12DIY all single-channel chips come in pairs (e.g. OPA1611, two chips mounted on a single "adapter" which is obviously wider than the BrownDog above). Do I order one single-channel OPA627; will that work? Because if I order two of them, I don't see any spare holes in the E12DIY to fit 16 pins...
  
 Is there maybe a different adapter that should be used in this case?


----------



## Loquah

landroni said:


> I have a query wrt this adapter (and pre-mounted components):
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
> 
> For me it is clear that LM4562 is *dual*-channel (like AD8620 in stock E12DIY), so I need to order just *one* and it will probably fit and work as expected.
> ...




I haven't looked at the online listing, but you're correct that you'll need 2 chips soldered to a single, 8-pin adapter like the ones in the DIY kit.


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> I have a query wrt this adapter (and pre-mounted components):
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
> 
> For me it is clear that LM4562 is *dual*-channel (like AD8620 in stock E12DIY), so I need to order just *one* and it will probably fit and work as expected.
> ...


 
  
@Loquah is right. You will need to use the stock adapter that comes with E12DIY to mount two single channel opamp onto the same adapter (those empty adapter are inside the metal box, underneath the foam). Those single-to-dual adapter offered by BrownDog will not fit inside E12DIY. If you plug a single channel opamp into the E12DIY's dual channel socket, the opamp will burn.
  
 If you need extra empty single-to-dual FiiO adapter, PM me. I still have a few spare.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> @Loquah is right. You will need to use the stock adapter that comes with E12DIY to mount two single channel opamp onto the same adapter (those empty adapter are inside the metal box, underneath the foam). Those single-to-dual adapter offered by BrownDog will not fit inside E12DIY. If you plug a single channel opamp into the E12DIY's dual channel socket, the opamp will burn.
> 
> 
> If you need extra empty single-to-dual FiiO adapter, PM me. I still have a few spare.


 

 Thanks! So far the back of my foam is in pristine condition, so I still have 3 such adapters for use. But in case I'll need one, I'll shout back... 
  
 Yesterday I placed my order with BrownDog for the adapters with pre-mounted dual-channel opamps:
 http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
  
 and these guys are incredibly flexible. While I ordered the LM4562MA, I asked out of curiosity if they provided opamps not included on the listing, e.g. AD8599 or NJM5532. Within the day they added both AD8599 and NE5532 to the listing... Pretty cool.
  
 Cooler still, when I inquired if they had a FiiO-like wide single-to-dual adapter, the answer was negative but they seemed quite open to the idea of my supplying them my blank adapters, them soldering the opamps for a (reasonable, I suppose) fee, and shipping them back to me. For those with no soldering tools or expertise, this looks like the best way of getting their hands on opamp upgrades...


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> Thanks! So far the back of my foam is in pristine condition, so I still have 3 such adapters for use. But in case I'll need one, I'll shout back...
> 
> Yesterday I placed my order with BrownDog for the adapters with pre-mounted dual-channel opamps:
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601-3.aspx
> ...


 
  
 Ask them if they can get the NJM5532 for you instead, which is probably the best sounding of all the generic 5532 opamp out there. If not, NE5532 is fine as well.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> Ask them if they can get the NJM5532 for you instead, which is probably the best sounding of all the generic 5532 opamp out there. If not, NE5532 is fine as well.


 

 I did try with NJM5532, but they weren't sure it would fit the adapter: "The datasheet for the NJM5532 specifies a "DMP-8" package which is similar (but slightly wider) than an SO-8 package. It _might_ fit on a 970601A adapter."
  
 For now this is my first foray into non-stock opamps, so for starters I think I'll be happy enough with the NE5532. Maybe I'll try to hassle them for the actual NJM5532 later on.


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> I did try with NJM5532, but they weren't sure it would fit the adapter: "The datasheet for the NJM5532 specifies a "DMP-8" package which is similar (but slightly wider) than an SO-8 package. It _might_ fit on a 970601A adapter."
> 
> For now this is my first foray into non-stock opamps, so for starters I think I'll be happy enough with the NE5532. Maybe I'll try to hassle them for the actual NJM5532 later on.


 
  
 You might want to try the DIP8 version of NJM5532 later then, maybe it will fit.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> You might want to try the DIP8 version of NJM5532 later then, maybe it will fit.


 

 Can you trim the tips of DIP-8 chip, like you do for the HA-5002?


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> Can you trim the tips of DIP-8 chip, like you do for the HA-5002?


 
  
 Won't help. It is not the legs that cause the problem, it is the bulk of the body of a regular DIP8 packaging that might be too tall to fit in.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> Here are my impression over a few opamps in the E12DIY. I stuck to BUF637 this time and will look into LME49600 some other time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Does this un-recommendation still hold? I ask because elsewhere on the forum some had suggested OPA2107 as a good opamp filter, and now I notice that Hifiman's flagship HM901s uses these specs: 
 DAC chip: ES9018*2
 Op-amp: OPA627*2， *OPA2107**2

  
 While from several reviewers in this thread OPA627 seems to make some kind of consensus as to delivering top-notch sound, OPA2107 seems more controversial...  Could you elaborate a bit more on OPA2107?


----------



## beyerdude

For anyone interested I have a mint condition (but not working) E12DIY for sale on the for sale section - Would suit Australian buyers - I would say hard to repair as I stuffed up removing the stock capacitors (removed the circuit board traces) - don't assume its repairable unless you are a whizz with a magnifying glass/fiddly electronics.
  
 Ideal for anyone who has stuffed up the case (it's silver unmarked) serial number 0900, it fits the muses opamp with no mod needed - battery like new (did not have too much use before it broke)....not sure if it's good form to post on here but I know people are on the lookout for cases after dremel accidents due to mods


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> Does this un-recommendation still hold? I ask because elsewhere on the forum some had suggested OPA2107 as a good opamp filter, and now I notice that Hifiman's flagship HM901s uses these specs:
> DAC chip: ES9018*2
> Op-amp: OPA627*2， *OPA2107**2
> 
> ...


 
  
 Implement is the key. Sometime a chip works out great on one circuit while sucks on another. In this case, OP2107 just doesn't bring anything to E12DIY. It is a little warm and mid centric sounding, lacking dynamic and feel boring overall.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> Implement is the key. Sometime a chip works out great on one circuit while sucks on another. In this case, OP2107 just doesn't bring anything to E12DIY. It is a little warm and mid centric sounding, lacking dynamic and feel boring overall.


 

 Thanks, good to know. Will stray away then. @Loquah also didn't find it particularly impressive.

 PS Got confused about BUF634... Of course it's already included in stock E12DIY.


----------



## landroni

With the advent of HM901s and X7, with modular amp designs, we now have a better idea of what opamps manufacturers consider suited for a particular purpose. For the fun of it, I prepared this list of Hifiman amp cards and their specs, to give us a taste of the marketing-flavored descriptions of the individual opamp and buffer combinations.

  
*Minibox Amplifier Card*

_Provides a Super Wide Frequency Range and Extremely Low Distortion_
Opamp: *OPA627* (x2)
Buffer: *BUF634* (x4)
 
*MINIBOX Gold Amp Card*

_Bringing High Fidelity Live Music to Your Ears is No Longer Just a Fantasy_
Opamp: *OPA637* (x2)
Buffer: *BUF634* (x8)
 
*IEM Amplifier Card*

_The HIFIMAN IEM Amp Card for In-Ear Monitor Users_
Opamp: ???
Buffer: *BUF634* (x2)
 
*Balanced Amplifier Card*

_Great for Users Who Might Like to Experiment with Powerful Amp Module_
Opamp: *OPA627* (x4)
Buffer: *BUF634* (x4)
 
  
*Power II Amp Card*

_The Power II Amp Card_
Opamp: ???
Buffer: ???
  
*Musical Amplifier Card*

_Pure Musicality_
Opamp: ???
Buffer: ???
Notes: Comes with the woolly "a classic differential amplifier as input and is supplemented with a NEC 2SD882 on both sides", whatever that means...
 

  
 If anyone knows any of the missing chips above, please reply to this thread and I'll update the list. Now waiting with interest for the specs of the X7 modules...


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> .... If anyone knows any of the missing chips above, please reply to this thread and I'll update the list. Now waiting with interest for the specs of the X7 modules...


 
  
 The only problem is that just listing down the combo of opamp and buffer totally ignores all the surrounding circuit of the amp. An amp is not just opamp and buffer chips, caps and resistors might be small, they are just as important.


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> The only problem is that just listing down the combo of opamp and buffer totally ignores all the surrounding circuit of the amp. An amp is not just opamp and buffer chips, caps and resistors might be small, they are just as important.


 

 Absolutely, though it's a nice reference point. I also find it curious that for a flagship product Hifiman chose much the same components that many have been using all along with E12DIY: OPA627 and BUF634. Clearly OPA627 makes some sort of consensus, both with users and manufacturers, of being among the best of its breed.
  
 I was only surprised to see OPA637 used as an upgrade to OPA627. Has anyone actually tried OPA637 with E12DIY? The only reference I could find in this thread is this post explaining that "OPA637 is not internally compensated for unity gain and is likely to be a lot less stable in the E12DIY"...


----------



## ClieOS

landroni said:


> I was only surprised to see OPA637 used as an upgrade to OPA627. Has anyone actually tried OPA637 with E12DIY? The only reference I could find in this thread is this post explaining that "OPA637 is not internally compensated for unity gain and is likely to be a lot less stable in the E12DIY"...


 
  
 OPA637 isn't an upgrade over OPA627. It is just the faster version, so to speak - and in fact, too fast for audio use in most cases. The fact that TI lists both opamp in the same datasheet should also tell you that their performance ain't that far apart, but intended for different usage.


----------



## landroni

Before anything, I wanted to thank all for the kind feedback and assistance in this thread. Without it all, it would be impossible for a novice like me to squeeze every little inch of performance from this wonderful device.
  
 This week I received my BrownDog adapters with soldered opamps/buffers. Interestingly they have a very tiny higher profile than the stock adapters, but fit perfectly the case nonetheless. As predicted by others, the AD8599/LME49600 was only very marginally better than the stock chips, whether AD8620 or OPA1611 (with same buffer). I could detect some improvement only if I was consciously looking for some improvement.
  
 However plugging the LM4562/BUF634 proved a very different story. This is a very clear upgrade. It's as if for the first time ever I'm actually listening to the X3 DAC (or the Astrapi DAC) without interference, without a veil or coloration or anything... I never knew what people meant by "clean" or "transparent", but now it's clear it's a very welcome thing. 
  
  
 Now I'm scratching my head how to trim 1mm off of the HA-5002 pins so as to make it fit the case...


----------



## landroni

clieos said:


> BrownDog actually offers pre-mounted HA-5002 these days? That's great. Yep, those are exactly what you need. Be sure to insulate the top if they didn't do it, a piece of sticker or insulating tape will do. Also remember to *trim 1mm or so off from each pins*.


 

 I'm not sure if I'm doing something terribly stupid, but after checking very carefully (several times, and as much as I physically could peek into the case) it _seems_ like the BrownDog adapters that I received with pre-mounted HA-5002 fit just fine in the case, without bending the PCB or anything. It's true they're a bit taller, but after plugging them in there is just enough space for the insulating tape as well as a tiny little bit more. I closed my case and all seems to be working as expected...
  
 Now trying out the NE5532/HA-5002 combo...


----------



## ClieOS

I'll say all the better if you can fit them in without and modification.


----------



## landroni

NE5532/HA-5002 is an awesome upgrade to the stock sound. It works mighty well for classical, too.


----------



## xPakrikx

knock off Muses ? :|


----------



## ClieOS

xpakrikx said:


> knock off Muses ? :|


 
  
 Yep, it does look like a fake.


----------



## hellfire8888

which combination of the opamp will give warm sound signature?


----------



## landroni

hellfire8888 said:


> which combination of the opamp will give warm sound signature?


 

 One option is:
 OPA627 + BUF634 for warmth and smoothness
  
 See this post:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/674808/fiio-e12diy-limited-edition-version-diy-your-own-sound/2100#post_11948589


----------



## hellfire8888

landroni said:


> One option is:
> OPA627 + BUF634 for warmth and smoothness
> 
> See this post:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/674808/fiio-e12diy-limited-edition-version-diy-your-own-sound/2100#post_11948589


 
 What if i just have the original op + buf that comes with e12 diy? which one is the warmest? thanks


----------



## funkforfood

Hello!
 Please, where can i buy a replacement battery for this amp?
 Thanks!


----------



## nmatheis

funkforfood said:


> Hello!
> Please, where can i buy a replacement battery for this amp?
> Thanks!




Have you contacted FiiO?


----------



## funkforfood

nmatheis said:


> Have you contacted FiiO?


 

  Not yet, just started looking around...


----------



## RedTwilight

Try this: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/FiiO-E12-Spare-parts/1473108_32234108469.html
  
 It's from Fiio's own store.


----------



## funkforfood

Many thanks!


----------



## KopaZ

I guess im two years late for the party...
>.>


----------



## Loquah

LOL. Yeah, and you don't tend to see these on the sale forum


----------



## thesmokingman

redtwilight said:


> Try this: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/FiiO-E12-Spare-parts/1473108_32234108469.html
> 
> It's from Fiio's own store.


 
  
  
 That's surprisingly kinda cheap for a lipo.
  
  
 I wonder if you could stuff sparkos opamps in, if there's clearance?


----------



## RedTwilight

thesmokingman said:


> That's surprisingly kinda cheap for a lipo.
> 
> 
> I wonder if you could stuff sparkos opamps in, if there's clearance?


 
  
 Probably not v high C rating.


----------



## Pete7

I bought an E12 DIY used a month ago. Tried a bunch of different chips. Suddenly I noticed some background noise with the volume turned down, and then about 6 days ago the amp wouldn't work (blue light flash) except with an AD8620 op-amp. With AD8620 (and either of the stock buffers)the amp functions perfectly, but OPA627's, OPA1611, OPA604, MUSES 01, LM4562, ADA4627-1BRZ and AD797 all do not work and the blue power light flashes if I try to switch to one of those chips.
I'm thinking maybe the battery is almost worn down and the reason AD8620 still works is because it operates at the lowest voltage? I've got 2 new batteries from Fiio on order but could use an experienced opinion.


----------



## Loquah

pete7 said:


> I bought an E12 DIY used a month ago. Tried a bunch of different chips. Suddenly I noticed some background noise with the volume turned down, and then about 6 days ago the amp wouldn't work (blue light flash) except with an AD8620 op-amp. With AD8620 (and either of the stock buffers)the amp functions perfectly, but OPA627's, OPA1611, OPA604, MUSES 01, LM4562, ADA4627-1BRZ and AD797 all do not work and the blue power light flashes if I try to switch to one of those chips.
> I'm thinking maybe the battery is almost worn down and the reason AD8620 still works is because it operates at the lowest voltage? I've got 2 new batteries from Fiio on order but could use an experienced opinion.




Does changing the buffer help? What if you use it while plugged in to a power source?


----------



## Pete7

No, it doesn't. And now AD8620 gets the flashing blue light, too. I just tried disconnecting the battery and reconnecting it (power off, of course) and plugged into a power source. So now it's dead in the water. I probably have at least a week until I receive the new batteries.


----------



## ClieOS

If you have a volt meter, you can measure the voltage off the battery. It should be above 9.6V. If it is well under 9.6V, then it is pretty much dead.


----------



## Pete7

I'll hit Radio Shack tomorrow. It sounds plausible, though? It was working fine until a week ago when I noticed some distortion noise at low volume with OPA627. What points do I measure with the multi-meter? Thanks for the help, by the way.


----------



## ClieOS

pete7 said:


> I'll hit Radio Shack tomorrow. It sounds plausible, though? It was working fine until a week ago when I noticed some distortion noise at low volume with OPA627. What points do I measure with the multi-meter? Thanks for the help, by the way.


 
  
 Just checked, it is a 11.1V battery, which means it is a triple stacked Li-ion (3.7V x 3). So the low end should be (3.2V x 3) = 9.6V. As long as it is around or above that number, the battery _might_ be fine. But if it is well below that number, then it is likely a goner and required a replacement. Before measurement, do give it a recharge for a few hours so you will know for sure it is the battery not taking any charge.
  
 There should be 4 wires coming out of the battery, 2 black and 2 red, connected to PCB with a socket. Just measured the outer two pins (one red and one black) and it should give you a reading.


----------



## Pete7

clieos said:


> Just checked, it is a 11.1V battery, which means it is a triple stacked Li-ion (3.7V x 3). So the low end should be (3.2V x 3) = 9.6V. As long as it is around or above that number, the battery _might_ be fine. But if it is well below that number, then it is likely a goner and required a replacement. Before measurement, do give it a recharge for a few hours so you will know for sure it is the battery not taking any charge.
> 
> There should be 4 wires coming out of the battery, 2 black and 2 red, connected to PCB with a socket. Just measured the outer two pins (one red and one black) and it should give you a reading.




Thanks a lot for the info.


----------



## xkcyip

May I get you opinion on which buffers would be the best to pair with muses01/02 in the e12 DIY?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Thanks!


----------



## Pete7

I never got around to buying a multi-meter, but I did receive the new batteries today. Had no problem installing a new one, unfortunately still got the same result: with every chip combination the dreaded flashing blue light of death. I'm wondering if Fiio would fix this on my dime. Guess it's time to send an inquiry. The amp has to much sonic goodness to just toss in the trash.


----------



## Loquah

pete7 said:


> I never got around to buying a multi-meter, but I did receive the new batteries today. Had no problem installing a new one, unfortunately still got the same result: with every chip combination the dreaded flashing blue light of death. I'm wondering if Fiio would fix this on my dime. Guess it's time to send an inquiry. The amp has to much sonic goodness to just toss in the trash.




They're pretty good with that sort of thing. Good idea to at least ask the question. Good luck!


----------



## ClieOS

pete7 said:


> I never got around to buying a multi-meter, but I did receive the new batteries today. Had no problem installing a new one, unfortunately still got the same result: with every chip combination the dreaded flashing blue light of death. I'm wondering if Fiio would fix this on my dime. Guess it's time to send an inquiry. The amp has to much sonic goodness to just toss in the trash.


 
  
 Try this: take the opamp and buffer out, find something to polish and clean the socket as well as the pins on opamp / buffer.


----------



## Pete7

clieos said:


> Try this: take the opamp and buffer out, find something to polish and clean the socket as well as the pins on opamp / buffer.




I use Deoxit Gold on the sockets and pins of the op-amps and buffers. The sockets look a bit wet with the stuff, though.


----------



## ClieOS

pete7 said:


> I use Deoxit Gold on the sockets and pins of the op-amps and buffers. The sockets look a bit wet with the stuff, though.


 
  
 I would have just used some tissue or some light sanding. Applying solution to socket might increase the risk of shorting-out


----------



## Pete7

clieos said:


> I would have just used some tissue or some light sanding. Applying solution to socket might increase the risk of shorting-out



Deoxit Gold is supposedly really good for connectivity. I've used it for years on jacks, IC's and sockets and never had a problem with another amp. Appreciate the help, though. I did use some Q-tips and a fan to dry the sockets but it didn't help.
Fiio responded to my email and gave me instructions to send the amp to them in China. Seems like my best bet.


----------



## KopaZ

so, i figured some of the opamp (dual discrete ones like SS3602) is just too big for the case, even though voltage rating is suitable for DIYE12.
 I'm talking with a guy that I met in new york meet to 3D print a bigger case, but I think it might take bit while.
 anybody know who might be able to design a bigger DIY E12 case?


----------



## CH23

kopaz said:


> so, i figured some of the opamp (dual discrete ones like SS3602) is just too big for the case, even though voltage rating is suitable for DIYE12.
> I'm talking with a guy that I met in new york meet to 3D print a bigger case, but I think it might take bit while.
> anybody know who might be able to design a bigger DIY E12 case?


 

 is the pinout the same?


----------



## KopaZ

Yeah; except the E12DIY gave me blue beeping light meaning there's something wrong; so I had to pull it out for now.


----------



## Pete7

Got my E12 DIY back from Fiio in China. I highly recommend their customer service. They fixed the amp at no charge even though there was no warranty, and I paid shipping each way. Now I have to figure out again what chip configuration I like the most. Right now I have OPA627 with HA-5002 in the buffer slots.


----------



## Zulkr9

Anybody know what the resistors are for supplied with the E12 diy


----------



## shyamelge

which op amps (preferably recently released ones) from Texas Instruments are considered excellent in SQ or have competitive edge over Muses1/2?


----------



## Loquah

I can't remember which brands are TI owned, but the OPA627 and 827 are both great options.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

What does it mean when the FiiO E12 DIY flashes the blue light when it comes on 6-12 times and then stops, but never outputs any sound? I hear the switching/click noise from the relay, but the sound never comes! 
  
 I have tried using the reset button, but no matter the source (tried 4 different sources) I can't get any sound to output to any of my headphones using low or high gain settings on the E12.
  
 I have been doing a detailed op-amp review for Burson Audio and after a week of testing, this randomly occurred so I had to stop my review. Also note, this is a brand new E12, I bought it for testing op-amps/a Hi-Fi portable amp.
  
 Does anyone even know of a way to cause this to happen if all you are doing is rolling op-amps? I have been involved in modding hardware for over 15 years (def know the correct orientation of an op-amp) and I have never killed a single piece of hardware, even at work as lead hardware tech.

 I tried every Dual-DIP op-amp I have on hand (11 different ones) and none of them work, including the Burson V5i and V5-OPA.

 (*Note to FiiO*: I emailed your support describing these symptoms 2 weeks ago and still haven't heard back.)

 I am hoping someone knows what happened or can give me some diagnostic tests to try.

 Review here for anyone interested, the E12 is the main device I used for op-amp rolling: 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/burson-audio-supreme-sound-opamp-v5/reviews/17827


----------



## snellemin

I too tried the V5 on the DIY and loved the sound.  Too bad it's way to tall, but it does bring the sound to the same level of my classic Luxman preamp.  
  
 So since you been swapping opamps, I would check the solder joints of the dip sockets and try out different set of buffers.
  

  
  
  
  
 I did this today to the E12A.  DIY on a budget.


----------



## Pete7

ncsuzoso said:


> What does it mean when the FiiO E12 DIY flashes the blue light when it comes on 6-12 times and then stops, but never outputs any sound? I hear the switching/click noise from the relay, but the sound never comes!
> 
> I have tried using the reset button, but no matter the source (tried 4 different sources) I can't get any sound to output to any of my headphones using low or high gain settings on the E12.
> 
> ...




I had this issue with my unit. I bought mine used about 8-9 months ago and it worked fine for a month. Then with certain op-amps the blue light would flash, and a few weeks later none of my op-amps worked at all. I thought maybe it was the battery so I bought a replacement from aliexpress. When that came I installed it and no difference. I emailed fiio customer support and shipped it to them for repair. It's been fine since and what I would suggest if you don't want to risk a soldering iron on your unit.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

pete7 said:


> I had this issue with my unit. I bought mine used about 8-9 months ago and it worked fine for a month. Then with certain op-amps the blue light would flash, and a few weeks later none of my op-amps worked at all. I thought maybe it was the battery so I bought a replacement from aliexpress. When that came I installed it and no difference. I emailed fiio customer support and shipped it to them for repair. It's been fine since and what I would suggest if you don't want to risk a soldering iron on your unit.


 

 I am good with soldering, I am about to do a ZXR SMD op-amp upgrade lol.  I just need to know what was wrong that they fixed.
  
 Here is a shot from the review of the V5-OPA-D and V5i-D using the E12 for the primary amp (and other stuff):


----------



## Pete7

It was a solder joint, not sure if it was op-amp or buffer. I can solder IC's to adapters, but ruined a LaRocco PR II amp with my tinkering years ago, so I no longer take any chances with amps.


----------



## snellemin

There isn't a whole lot of solder on the dip socket.  Easily a cold solder joint.  
  
 As of tonite I desoldered the stock socket and went with the socket that came with the Burson V5.  The holes are a tad bigger and the Muses go in easier.  Also added my last Wima cap to it.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

snellemin said:


> There isn't a whole lot of solder on the dip socket.  Easily a cold solder joint.
> 
> As of tonite I desoldered the stock socket and went with the socket that came with the Burson V5.  The holes are a tad bigger and the Muses go in easier.  Also added my last Wima cap to it.


 
  
  
 Hey thanks for your input and the pictures, I will definitely take a look at the sockets themselves. I have been modding/building circuits for over a decade and I am now a Jr in Electrical Engineering as of this semester, so I should be able to spot the issue (with the help of my tools) if it's just a solder joint.

 I may also put the socket provided by Burson Audio with each of their op-amps to go in as a replacement if I find the problem there.

 The only thing I could recall I did that wasn't on purpose with this unit was I accidentally pulled a V5i out of the E12 while it was still on. I immediately powered it off and inserted the V5i back, had static and popping. I put a V5-OPA-D in and it worked (for a little while). A few hours later I couldn't get a lick of sound to come out.

 (sorry if any of that is a repeat of my post above)


----------



## snellemin

ncsuzoso said:


> Hey thanks for your input and the pictures, I will definitely take a look at the sockets themselves. I have been modding/building circuits for over a decade and I am now a Jr in Electrical Engineering as of this semester, so I should be able to spot the issue (with the help of my tools) if it's just a solder joint.
> 
> I may also put the socket provided by Burson Audio with each of their op-amps to go in as a replacement if I find the problem there.
> 
> ...


 
 aah, so it might of have overloaded itself.  Did you swap the buffers out to see if that helped?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Yeah I tried all of the buffers, didn't seem to make any difference.
  
 For a short period high gain gave sound when low gain didn't, but usually with the V5-OPA-D.


----------



## snellemin

This combo didn't work. I just had to try it out.  Also tried a dual V4 burson and got nothing.


----------



## snellemin

ncsuzoso said:


> Yeah I tried all of the buffers, didn't seem to make any difference.
> 
> For a short period high gain gave sound when low gain didn't, but usually with the V5-OPA-D.


 
 Did you reflow all the solder joint underneath the opamp socket yet?


----------



## NCSUZoSo

snellemin said:


> Did you reflow all the solder joint underneath the opamp socket yet?


 

 Something I haven't mentioned yet, this E12 DIY-ed. is *only 2 months old... (since purchase)*

 That is what I was about to do before noticing that my unit no longer even lights up anymore when plugged into a wall adapter (before even trying to turn it on I noticed something wrong). The E12 has only been sitting since I had problems with audio output because of school dictating most of my schedule. I have no idea what has happened, but I did notice a strange bulge on the battery, but it's not very large, about 10% of the entire thing (see
 third picture below).
  
 I have uploaded a picture below of a close up of my E12 with the bottom of the PCB shown. I checked this thing point by point with a multimeter and I found a few things that don't quite look right or act right when checked with a multimeter. The biggest thing that caught my eye was the resistor located on the volume knob. The lower of the two, it doesn't check positive for continuity, like it is blown/bad.  Can someone give me the value of that resistor?

  
  
  
  
 You can see there is no power light when plugged in:
  

  
  
  
 Battery Bulge (bottom left corner in pic):
  


 I only tighten the vise as much as needed to hold the device securely (not enough to squeeze a battery) and it's made to hold exactly this type of a device. It is possible this lead to the bulge in the battery while under heavy load for extended periods, I guess that is possible.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

snellemin said:


> This combo didn't work. I just had to try it out.  Also tried a dual V4 burson and got nothing.


 

  Are those discrete buffers?


----------



## snellemin

ncsuzoso said:


> Are those discrete buffers?


 
 naah, they are the Burson V4 opamps.  They don't output enough current to be as buffers.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

snellemin said:


> naah, they are the Burson V4 opamps.  They don't output enough current to be as buffers.


 
  
 Then why are they plugged into the buffer locations?


----------



## snellemin

ncsuzoso said:


> Then why are they plugged into the buffer locations?


 
 Just to see what it could do, which is barely anything.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

snellemin said:


> Just to see what it could do, which is barely anything.


 


 I didn't even know you could do that.
  
 Can someone who has their E12 DIY out of the case do me a favor and check the resistance value of the two resistors found on the volume knob traces (backside of PCB/opposite of op-amp side) shown below:

 Also if someone really wants to help me check continuity at the two spots I showed failing on my circuit below. 

 1. The top resistors of the parallel resistors (current divider?).
 2. The bottom resistor on the volume knob traces.
  


 Also, could someone look at the reset switch/button and tell me if it easily moves in a circular pattern if pushed on from an angle with slight pressure. I am trying to make sure I didn't accidentally break the reset switch and that is causing my problem/s.

 I noticed when I was trying to use the reset with my thumb (PCB out of enclosure) that it didn't only push straight down, it moved like a basketball rimming out of the basket before pushing straight down. I do not think this is normal and it might be my needed fix...

 Be careful if you do check your reset switch, don't want you to break yours if this isn't normal. Give it very light pressure and see if it leans at all when light pressure is applied from the top and a slight angle. I believe it is supposed to be rigid and only move up and down (like any switch I have used/installed in the last 20 years).


----------



## snellemin

ncsuzoso said:


> I didn't even know you could do that.
> 
> Can someone who has their E12 DIY out of the case do me a favor and check the resistance value of the two resistors found on the volume knob traces (backside of PCB/opposite of op-amp side) shown below:
> 
> ...


 
 The two resistors by the potentiometer are between 101 and 102 ohms.
 The one by the voltage divider is 463 ohms.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

snellemin said:


> The two resistors by the potentiometer are between 101 and 102 ohms.
> The one by the voltage divider is 463 ohms.


 
  
 Thanks for the information on the resistance values so quickly! There is nothing wrong with me trying full-size resistors of equal resistance in their place right?  Should I use 1/4 or 1/2 watt? I am assuming 1/4 watt.

 However isn't that a current divider? Resistors in series would be a voltage divider while parallel resistors create a current divider.

 http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-6/current-divider-circuits/


----------



## snellemin

ncsuzoso said:


> Thanks for the information on the resistance values so quickly! There is nothing wrong with me trying full-size resistors of equal resistance in their place right?  Should I use 1/4 or 1/2 watt? I am assuming 1/4 watt.
> 
> However isn't that a current divider? Resistors in series would be a voltage divider while parallel resistors create a current divider.
> 
> http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-6/current-divider-circuits/


 
 You could use 1/8W resistors.


----------



## Pete7

ncsuzoso said:


> Then why are they plugged into the buffer locations?




There are op-amps that output enough current that they can be used as buffers, such as AD797 (but not in the DIY because it's a single) or AD8397.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

Can you check your reset switch like I had mentioned? If not, I am sure someone will have their E12 out of the enclosure and can check for me soon.

 If anyone wants me to check values of any components or think you see something suspect in my pictures let me know! I am in contact with FiiO, but I get faster input/feedback from this forum.
  
 Here is a shot of the entire bottom of the PCB without any writing in the way:

 Full Res: https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/15624789/img/Audio-Related/E12-PCB-%28Plain%29-v2.jpg


----------



## snellemin

My switch has zero play in it.


----------



## NCSUZoSo

snellemin said:


> My switch has zero play in it.


 

 Thank you, I think this might be the problem.
  
 I wonder how you find a switch/button such as that one?


----------



## snellemin

ncsuzoso said:


> Thank you, I think this might be the problem.
> 
> I wonder how you find a switch/button such as that one?


 
 The switches can be found, I just don't have a link right now.  Or you can buy a used FIIO for parts.  There is one E12 on Ebay for 35 bucks.


----------



## CH23

I think it might be either the RK0971221Z05 or the RK0971221Z11 as specified on http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/Potentiometer/RotaryPotentiometers/RK097/RK097_list.html


 MIGHT BE. no guarantees given.


----------



## odessamarin

@NCSUZoSo
  
 I would like to try V5-OPA-D or V5i-D in my set.. which one you could suggest to get. What is the main difference you find comparing them in E12?
 thx


----------



## snellemin

Got me a interesting opamp.  Uses two dual opamps, but one is used as a buffer to the second one.  Sounds pretty good.


----------



## audioxxx

I had the same biasing issue soon after receiving my fiio e12diy, where the amp would crackle and pop no matter what opamp went in. 

And after searching the board for hours for the fault, I couldn't find it, so off it went on its long trip back to Fiio for repairs. 
The amp was returned several weeks later repaired and working perfectly, and with a new battery. I had to pay a small fee, however it was well worth it. Unfortunately after requesting what the fault was, I couldn't get a clear response, as to the exact issue.
(I was told it was a dry joint near the headphone jack) 
I was also told I didn't cause the issue.
I'm still really enjoying this amp especially with the opa627au opamp installed, this amp sounds very clean.


----------



## snellemin (May 5, 2017)

Swapped in Buf634 with the 220 ohm resistors attached for the high bandwidth mode. Different level of amp now. Complements the Muses01 opamp, which has the Wima cap mod.  It's a tight fit, with the buffers touching the case.  It's a good thing, as the buffers get quiet warm and heatsinks onto the chassis.


----------



## Loquah

snellemin said:


> Swapped in Buf634 with the 220 ohm resistors attached for the high bandwidth mode. Different level of amp now. Complements the Muses01 opamp, which has the Wima cap mod.  It's a tight fit, with the buffers touching the case.  It's a good thing, as the buffers get quiet warm and heatsinks onto the chassis.



Interesting! Can you describe what you're hearing different now?


----------



## snellemin

Loquah said:


> Interesting! Can you describe what you're hearing different now?


It has the character of the Cayin c5.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

snellemin said:


> Swapped in Buf634 with the 220 ohm resistors attached for the high bandwidth mode. Different level of amp now. Complements the Muses01 opamp, which has the Wima cap mod.  It's a tight fit, with the buffers touching the case.  It's a good thing, as the buffers get quiet warm and heatsinks onto the chassis.


What kind of resistors did you use and between what pin numbers did you solder them?


----------



## snellemin

Hal Rockwell said:


> What kind of resistors did you use and between what pin numbers did you solder them?



The resistor is a 220 ohm value(Vishay Dale).  The resistor is connected between pin 1(BW) and pin 4(V-), as can been seen in the pic.


----------



## WillTirta

Any info where i can buy genuine muses02 in taobao??


----------



## audiofreakie

WillTirta said:


> Any info where i can buy genuine muses02 in taobao??


Afaik not sure if it from chinese market


----------



## Origen Ru

doki81 said:


> finally my original muses01 and 02 is here.....gonna give it a try later..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please can you pass the original Muses 02 Purchase Link?


----------



## ClieOS

Origen Ru said:


> Please can you pass the original Muses 02 Purchase Link?



http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NJR/MUSES02/?qs=/ha2pyFadugQ/IdasxsMBBtToJea2zNXtydj2fvaAqE=


----------



## Origen Ru

doki81 said:


> as per your request..has been trying very hard to do the macro shot  you may click on each picture to have a closer view..
> 
> left is the taobao muses02 (fake) and right is the akizuden muses02 (authentic)
> 
> ...


Is this original or false?
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/FREE...id=6d852c34-1e29-4c8c-9045-a1983f657b94&tpp=1


----------



## ClieOS

Origen Ru said:


> Is this original or false?
> https://es.aliexpress.com/item/FREE...id=6d852c34-1e29-4c8c-9045-a1983f657b94&tpp=1



99% of all the JRC MUSES on Taobao, Aliexpress or eBay are going to be fake, so don't bother. They are one of the most counterfeited opamp in China.


----------



## LeeU

Morning,
So can I solder a 220ohm resistor to the side of a 8 pin dip buf634 between pins 1 and 4 and put them in a e12 Diy directly with no adapter,  not enough room on my TO-220 buf634's to solder the resistor


----------



## snellemin




----------



## LeeU

Thanks, perfect!!!! How do you like the 634's with the 01, I have ha-5003 with a 02 and have wanted to try your combo for some time


----------



## snellemin

LeeU said:


> Thanks, perfect!!!! How do you like the 634's with the 01, I have ha-5003 with a 02 and have wanted to try your combo for some time


I personally like stacked 634's in high bandwidth mode.  But it doesn't fit into the diy. With muses it sounds very analog.  To my ears with stacked buffers, the sound comes close to the RSA intruder.  But I lost most of my audio parts in the massive houston flood, so I can't help you with a direct comparison at this time.


----------



## LeeU

Did you order the buf634's with resistor from ibasso or solder them up yourself?


----------



## snellemin

LeeU said:


> Did you order the buf634's with resistor from ibasso or solder them up yourself?



They came from my Ibasso PB2.  But it isn't hard to solder them on yourself.


----------



## LeeU

Cool, l thought i recognized those as ibasso's. I ordered a couple SHINKOH tantalum resistors in 220 ohm and 330 ohm as well as 4 buf634's to try.
Thanks for the replys...
Lee


----------



## Bluess

Hi, is this thread still alive? I'm getting one tomorrow and can anyone recommend me a good combo for transparency and wide sound stage?


----------



## Loquah

Bluess said:


> Hi, is this thread still alive? I'm getting one tomorrow and can anyone recommend me a good combo for transparency and wide sound stage?



Only just 

I quite like the BUF634 buffer (comes in the original kit) with something like the NJM5532 for transparency. I find the OPA627 produces a better stage, but it's a bit warmer so it depends on what you mean when you say transparency as some people interpret that as a 'cooler / more neutral sound'. In terms of hearing all the details and enjoying every second of the music, BUF634 + OPA627 is what I always come back to...


----------



## Bluess

Rhan


Loquah said:


> Only just
> 
> I quite like the BUF634 buffer (comes in the original kit) with something like the NJM5532 for transparency. I find the OPA627 produces a better stage, but it's a bit warmer so it depends on what you mean when you say transparency as some people interpret that as a 'cooler / more neutral sound'. In terms of hearing all the details and enjoying every second of the music, BUF634 + OPA627 is what I always come back to...


Thanks for the help, which version should I go? 627AP, 627BP?


----------



## Loquah

Bluess said:


> Rhan
> 
> Thanks for the help, which version should I go? 627AP, 627BP?



My understanding is that they both perform the same. I can't recall the difference.


----------



## Bluess

Loquah said:


> My understanding is that they both perform the same. I can't recall the difference.


Thanks again, then I will go with AP then. Just got 827 for a cheapie price,


----------



## Loquah

Bluess said:


> Thanks again, then I will go with AP then. Just got 827 for a cheapie price,



827 is also really nice, doesn't have quite as good an image as 627, but you might prefer it's "cleaner" / brighter sound


----------



## Bluess

Loquah said:


> 827 is also really nice, doesn't have quite as good an image as 627, but you might prefer it's "cleaner" / brighter sound


Can you give me an image placing the 627 in the adapter. Thanks


----------



## Bluess

Opa827+LM49600 sound wonderful


----------



## Bluess

I saw lots of people here having dirty looking board. I suggest using acrylic lacquer to clean it. 
Also can anyone suggest a good replacement for the capacitor in c6 and c7? Thanks


----------



## CH23

Bluess said:


> I saw lots of people here having dirty looking board. I suggest using acrylic lacquer to clean it.
> Also can anyone suggest a good replacement for the capacitor in c6 and c7? Thanks



I have Silmic II in 22uF, 25V in my E12DIY. beware of fake ones.


----------



## Loquah

Can some of the more technically / electrically experienced folks on here help me understand the wide bandwidth mode on the BUF634? How do I choose the right resistor value?


----------



## hellfire8888

can i install this into e12 diy?

https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5i/

v5i dual?


----------



## Bluess (Jan 24, 2018)

hellfire8888 said:


> can i install this into e12 diy?
> 
> https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/supreme-sound-opamp-v5i/
> 
> v5i dual?



No, unless you remove the cover case of the V5i and do some tweak to make it shorter.
Or just make a custom case for E12DIY


----------



## hellfire8888

Bluess said:


> No, unless you remove the cover case of the V5i and do some tweak to make it shorter.
> Or just make a custom case for E12DIY



ok so it can be use just that the case cannot be close because it is too big is it?


----------



## Loquah

hellfire8888 said:


> ok so it can be use just that the case cannot be close because it is too big is it?



Seems that way as it matches many of the commonly used op amp alternatives for the DIY.

On a different, but related topic, I recently bit the bullet and ordered a MUSES02 having been only mildly impressed by the MUSES01. I'm now rocking the MUSES02 and HA5002 and it's glorious! Even better than my favourite OPA627 with BUF634


----------



## Bluess

hellfire8888 said:


> ok so it can be use just that the case cannot be close because it is too big is it?


Yes. I'm going to make a custom case for it in the next few weekz so I can even fit a V6. Stay tuned


----------



## Bluess

Loquah said:


> Seems that way as it matches many of the commonly used op amp alternatives for the DIY.
> 
> On a different, but related topic, I recently bit the bullet and ordered a MUSES02 having been only mildly impressed by the MUSES01. I'm now rocking the MUSES02 and HA5002 and it's glorious! Even better than my favourite OPA627 with BUF634


Nice I'm quite interested in the HA5002. Where can I buy the adapter for it? You have any idea?


----------



## magisterarus

You can buy the adapter from cimarrontechnology:

http://cimarrontechnology.com/buf634adapter.aspx


----------



## Bluess

magisterarus said:


> You can buy the adapter from cimarrontechnology:
> 
> http://cimarrontechnology.com/buf634adapter.aspx


Nice, so we need to choose the option of adding the buffer to the bottom right?
Thanks


----------



## magisterarus

Bluess said:


> Nice, so we need to choose the option of adding the buffer to the bottom right?
> Thanks



Exactly. Or you could buy the bare adapter if you have the ability to solder the opamps on it.


----------



## Bluess

so today, I got a V5iD and tried opening it to fit the E12DIY case. Unfortunately it's all filled with something like plastic inside. Guess to prevent copying and that also explains the high heat emission when using it.


----------



## hellfire8888

is it damage?? the v5i?


----------



## Bluess

hellfire8888 said:


> is it damage?? the v5i?


well, yeah


----------



## hellfire8888

Bluess said:


> well, yeah


what a waste!!


----------



## Bluess

new toy. It's really hard to find a place to make a custom case for e12diy without ripping you off


----------



## hellfire8888

what chip is this? how much? impression?


----------



## Bluess (Feb 3, 2018)

hellfire8888 said:


> what chip is this? how much? impression?


It's sparkoss SS3602. About 80$.
My initial impression running with LME49600 is it has great micro details and air compare to muses02, vocal feels much lighter compare to muses02.
Nothing is harsh even with some track prone to hissing.
Running with BUF634 you get much thicker and sweeter mid but you loses the great micro details and air.
I don't like it as much as muses02 because I listen li it the most ever since I bought a Fiio E12DIY.
But after giving it a few hours, I like it much more now. Let see how it goes after a few days


----------



## Loquah

Bluess said:


> It's sparkoss SS3602. About 80$.
> My initial impression running with LME49600 is it has great micro details and air compare to muses02, vocal feels much lighter compare to muses02.
> Nothing is harsh even with some track prone to hissing.
> Running with BUF634 you get much thicker and sweeter mid but you loses the great micro details and air.
> ...



Nice! I have a Burson V5i on the way which will pose similar casing issues I expect, but I will try it naked and report some comparisons with MUSES02, OPA627, etc.


----------



## Bluess

Loquah said:


> Nice! I have a Burson V5i on the way which will pose similar casing issues I expect, but I will try it naked and report some comparisons with MUSES02, OPA627, etc.


Nice, one note on the ss3602 is that it makes noise when you switch the power on and off


----------



## Loquah

Bluess said:


> Nice, one note on the ss3602 is that it makes noise when you switch the power on and off



Interesting. With buffers?


----------



## Bluess

Loquah said:


> Interesting. With buffers?


Both Fiio's default


----------



## Loquah

So the V5i arrived today from Burson. Firstly, forget about fitting it in the E12DIY casing (in case that wasn't clear from other people's comments). Here's a pic to demonstrate: https://photos.app.goo.gl/76ctI1r2gLwUTqrt1

Sadly, my first test session resulted in fried HA5002 buffers!!!! I should clarify that this was NOT user error as the V5i worked perfectly with the LM49600, but was a bit shaky with the BUF634. I'm not sure exactly what is going on to cause the problems (hissing, etc.), but I do know that my HA5002 are junk now.

I expect to hear wonderful things from the V5i once I'm brave enough (and my ears have settled down enough) to try it again, but for now wanted to warn you good folks to be careful if using the V5i op-amp in your E12DIY.


----------



## Bluess

Thanks for the notice mate, I'm about to receive them too. 
Stuck at the post for now as we're enjoying lunar new year.


----------



## Bluess

Loquah said:


> So the V5i arrived today from Burson. Firstly, forget about fitting it in the E12DIY casing (in case that wasn't clear from other people's comments). Here's a pic to demonstrate: https://photos.app.goo.gl/76ctI1r2gLwUTqrt1
> 
> Sadly, my first test session resulted in fried HA5002 buffers!!!! I should clarify that this was NOT user error as the V5i worked perfectly with the LM49600, but was a bit shaky with the BUF634. I'm not sure exactly what is going on to cause the problems (hissing, etc.), but I do know that my HA5002 are junk now.
> 
> I expect to hear wonderful things from the V5i once I'm brave enough (and my ears have settled down enough) to try it again, but for now wanted to warn you good folks to be careful if using the V5i op-amp in your E12DIY.


So I tried it today with LM49600. You have to turn on high gain mode while running with V5I. Otherwise it doesn't have enough voltage or current to drive the opamp properly making the red light blinking sometimes while at low volume in low gain mode and hissing when you turn the volume. Working fine with high gain mode


----------



## Loquah

Bluess said:


> So I tried it today with LM49600. You have to turn on high gain mode while running with V5I. Otherwise it doesn't have enough voltage or current to drive the opamp properly making the red light blinking sometimes while at low volume in low gain mode and hissing when you turn the volume. Working fine with high gain mode



Mine seemed to work fine with LM49600 in low gain mode. Other buffers, not so much


----------



## Bluess

Hi guys, after a few weeks listening to V5iD, muses02 and SS3602  pairing with LM49600.

My setup: X7II + E12DIY in high gain + Norne Draugh V2C + Denon D7200.

I came to a conclusion as below:

SS3602>V5iD>Muses02

The muses02 to my ear is more mid centric and smoother compare to the other two.

Meanwhile V5iD and SS3602 are much less mid forward, with v5i and ss3602 you will get more depth and width, much better clarity than muses02.  The bass get more control with these 2. However the Treble in V5iD does not impress me as much as SS3602.

Out of the 3, mid in ss3602 is the most laid back, i think that's the reason why I feel the air and space is wider?

Anyway, considering the price tag SS3602 performs as expected. Meanwhile the V5iD is a surprise for me, it's half the price tag of SS3602 but the differences in performance is not that far off. I find them sounding quite similar, I think I can say SS3602 is an upgrade version of V5iD with twice the price tag.


----------



## odessamarin

Having no time to play with my E12DIY.. here on SALE now, if somebody interested...
thank you


----------



## Bluess

It is a great fun to swap opamp and capacitor. My E12DIY is now a totally different beast


----------



## odessamarin

Hey there.. just in case somebody interested, i have MUSES01, OPA627 and HA5002 for sale (Europe)
All original and worked well in my E12DIY (sold)...


----------



## andylesch

odessamarin said:


> Hey there.. just in case somebody interested, i have MUSES01, OPA627 and HA5002 for sale (Europe)
> All original and worked well in my E12DIY (sold)...


How much is? Delivery to Ukraine.


----------



## LaughMoreDaily

duyu said:


> The sellers all claim that they will refund 10 times back to you if their products are fake. But ridiculously they will never confess their products are fake.
> I think you should be able to get a refund from taobao, show them these photos.
> 
> It seems there is no way to buy cheap Muses then...


Cheap Muses... lol. Just buy the Muses 8920, it's only $20 US


----------



## Zweiguys

Are the OPA627 and HA5002 still the general consensus as the best components to install?


----------



## bogginhead

I have a e12 DIY arriving today; cannot wait to have some fun with this thing.  I have a couple of questions, though (apologies if I missed this info earlier in the thread).  

What all will I need to get started on amp rolling?  

I've seen that some people are apparently using single chips and dual sets of them.  What is the reason for this?  And is one chip enough?


----------



## Zweiguys

bogginhead said:


> I have a e12 DIY arriving today; cannot wait to have some fun with this thing.  I have a couple of questions, though (apologies if I missed this info earlier in the thread).
> 
> What all will I need to get started on amp rolling?
> 
> I've seen that some people are apparently using single chips and dual sets of them.  What is the reason for this?  And is one chip enough?


You’ve got a nice amp there. Did it come complete with all the original opamps and buffers? If so, start with those and see which of those you prefer. What sounds best with your setup. Don’t change too quickly. Let yourself get a good feel for what you like and don’t like about a particular combination.
  Most important is to read this thread in its entirety. There’s a ton of information in it. fwiw I’m new to this E12diy tinkering myself.


----------



## bogginhead

Zweiguys said:


> You’ve got a nice amp there. Did it come complete with all the original opamps and buffers? If so, start with those and see which of those you prefer. What sounds best with your setup. Don’t change too quickly. Let yourself get a good feel for what you like and don’t like about a particular combination.
> Most important is to read this thread in its entirety. There’s a ton of information in it. fwiw I’m new to this E12diy tinkering myself.


Thanks for the reply.  Unfortunately shipping is taking a little longer than the expected delivery date, so it'll be tomorrow before I get a chance to mess with this thing.  It does come with all the original op amps and buffers (as well as accessories and packaging).  It'll definitely be the most powerful portable amp I've gotten thus far (which I need with planars, it seems).


----------



## snellemin

bogginhead said:


> Thanks for the reply.  Unfortunately shipping is taking a little longer than the expected delivery date, so it'll be tomorrow before I get a chance to mess with this thing.  It does come with all the original op amps and buffers (as well as accessories and packaging).  It'll definitely be the most powerful portable amp I've gotten thus far (which I need with planars, it seems).


I have the DIY and its still not enough for my planars.


----------



## bogginhead

snellemin said:


> I have the DIY and its still not enough for my planars.



Really?  Man, I was so hoping 750mw would be more than enough.  Do you have a portable setup for your planars?  If so, what are you using?


----------



## odessamarin

.. just in case somebody interested,
i have MUSES01, HA5002 (bufer) , OPA627 and some other OP amps (AD8599ARZ, LM4562NA, OPA2134PA) and adaptors for sale (Europe)
All original and worked well in my E12DIY (which I sold)... not need portable rig anymore.
Of course the main here is MUSES01 with HA5002 bufer.. sound really really good, very spacious and 3D.
HA5002 is rare and has particular pinout.. so i did all soldering myself.
The parts are 100% original (directly from Mouser Electronics, original invoice included..)
The second win here is OPA627...
is easily my favourite. It's smooth, but detailed and creates a great sense of space in the sound, especially with BUF634
For all lot I ask 100 eur + ss
All parts perfectly works in my E12DIY.
If somebody interestet, please let me know.
Sorry to put this AD here, but it seems to be too specific for Trade and Slae sections...
Some original photos..


----------



## snellemin

bogginhead said:


> Really?  Man, I was so hoping 750mw would be more than enough.  Do you have a portable setup for your planars?  If so, what are you using?


I have the old Ibasso PB2 and Ray Samuels Intruder.


----------



## Zweiguys

Bluess said:


> It is a great fun to swap opamp and capacitor. My E12DIY is now a totally different beast


Blues, would you take the time to explain your mods? Why the cap on the muses 02 and where is the other end of the jumper terminated? Are the new capacitors an improvement over the originals?
 Thanks in advance


----------



## bogginhead

Anyone here happen to know the size / type of screw used in the removable bottom part?  I recently got a DIY but it was missing one of these; I'm aiming to replace it if possible.


----------



## bogginhead

I'm about ready to order a few op amps to roll with, but I'm still unsure about a couple of things.  I want to order Muses01 and 02 (one a piece), but will that even work?  Just one a piece?  Or do I need two a piece?  And would two sound better?    Also, how tough is it going to be to get these installed?


----------



## snellemin

bogginhead said:


> I'm about ready to order a few op amps to roll with, but I'm still unsure about a couple of things.  I want to order Muses01 and 02 (one a piece), but will that even work?  Just one a piece?  Or do I need two a piece?  And would two sound better?    Also, how tough is it going to be to get these installed?


There is a slot for a single Opamp(dual version) and 2 slots for buffers.  Very easy to install.  Just pay attention with the Muses, as the legs are made of soft copper.


----------



## bogginhead

snellemin said:


> There is a slot for a single Opamp(dual version) and 2 slots for buffers.  Very easy to install.  Just pay attention with the Muses, as the legs are made of soft copper.



Thank you.  Can you explain what you mean by dual version?  Does that mean I can use single AND dual chips in there?


----------



## bogginhead

Is the e12 DIY capable of using the new Muses03?  Just wondering before I try to get an 01 and 02.  Also, is it better to use two of the same kind of op-amp?  I couldn't, say, use both a muses01 and an 02 together in the DIY could I?


----------



## odessamarin (Oct 13, 2018)

bogginhead said:


> Thank you.  Can you explain what you mean by dual version?  Does that mean I can use single AND dual chips in there?



Yes..
Some OP AMPs chip has 2 chanel amps in one chip. As Muses01, 02.. very easy. Just plug it in.. done
Some others like OPA627 has just one amp in one chip. So you need adapter (should be included) where you need solder two OPA627 in one plate. Look on photos in my previous post...


----------



## bogginhead

odessamarin said:


> Yes..
> Some OP AMPs chip has 2 chanel amps in one chip. As Muses01, 02.. very easy. Just plug it in.. done
> Some others like OPA627 has just one amp in one chip. So you need adapter (should be included) where you need solder two OPA627 in one plate. Look on photos in my previous post...



I see...so I would need two of the Muses 03 (since they are singles) and an adapter for use in the DIY?


----------



## bogginhead

I finally got around to installing a Muses01 into my DIY.  Now...it won't hold a charge.  I saw some discussion a few pages back on this issue; what was recommended to solve this?  I've got the blinking blue light.


----------



## Mad Max

Loquah said:


> So the V5i arrived today from Burson. Firstly, forget about fitting it in the E12DIY casing (in case that wasn't clear from other people's comments). Here's a pic to demonstrate: https://photos.app.goo.gl/76ctI1r2gLwUTqrt1
> 
> Sadly, my first test session resulted in fried HA5002 buffers!!!! I should clarify that this was NOT user error as the V5i worked perfectly with the LM49600, but was a bit shaky with the BUF634. I'm not sure exactly what is going on to cause the problems (hissing, etc.), but I do know that my HA5002 are junk now.
> 
> I expect to hear wonderful things from the V5i once I'm brave enough (and my ears have settled down enough) to try it again, but for now wanted to warn you good folks to be careful if using the V5i op-amp in your E12DIY.


I'm seeing in the datasheet that HA5002 should get input resistors of somewhere between 50-1k ohms, any amp we play with is only going to use 10 ohms at most. That could be a part of the problem. Burson output frying something is definitely weird, assuming no mistake on your part like putting in the wrong opamp type (single vs dual) or inserting something backwards.


----------



## ClieOS

Mad Max said:


> I'm seeing in the datasheet that HA5002 should get input resistors of somewhere between 50-1k ohms, any amp we play with is only going to use 10 ohms at most. That could be a part of the problem. Burson output frying something is definitely weird, assuming no mistake on your part like putting in the wrong opamp type (single vs dual) or inserting something backwards.



One thing I have said in the very early of this thread when using HA-5002 (which I think I am probably the first to use it on E12DIY) is that this buffer has no current limiting. If the source (the opamp upstream) already has a lot of output current, that add to HA-5002's output when you plug your headphone in _WHILE _the amp is already turned on, the left and right channels' pins can short just a tiny bit and send a power surge back to the HA-5002, which will fry it if it is big enough. I am guessing that could be the case here (*which might not be a problem when used with opamp with smaller output current as the surge might not be big enough to destroy the buffer). Regardless, the proper way to use HA-5002 as buffer for headphone is to always plug your headphone in (or unplug the headphone) when the amp is turned off


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Does anyone has a clue where can I get a replacement battery for E12DIY?


----------



## ClieOS

Hal Rockwell said:


> Does anyone has a clue where can I get a replacement battery for E12DIY?



Try contacting FiiO first. They probably used the same battery for the A5 as well. For the least you ca get the proper spec for a replacement battery.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

ClieOS said:


> Try contacting FiiO first. They probably used the same battery for the A5 as well. For the least you ca get the proper spec for a replacement battery.



Tried that. They have non left in stock.


----------



## snellemin

Got bored and finally installed stand-offs for the capacitors.  Now I can roll caps too.


----------



## evenrave (May 1, 2019)

I just registered and I can not upload a photo, I did not understand how. I have MUSE 02 and they play superbly after replacing the LME49720. But I bought from a dealer from the United States at a price cheaper than the official. How to upload a photo on this site? I apologize for Google translator)
  In appearance, they are very similar to the original but the legs are not very soft, they are the same as op LME49720, only with effort you can bend them, but even if it is not original, they give an adult sound, warm, natural and pleasant.


----------



## Zweiguys

snellemin said:


> Got bored and finally installed stand-offs for the capacitors.  Now I can roll caps too.


@snellemin Would you explain your mods? Why the resistors on the buffers? What’s the component on the muses 02?
tia


----------



## ClieOS

Zweiguys said:


> @snellemin Would you explain your mods? Why the resistors on the buffers? What’s the component on the muses 02?
> tia



Resistors on the BUF634 is to push it into wide bandwidth mode (from 30 MHz to 180 MHz). Think of it like an overdrive. Some think it gives a better sound that way but other think it is an overkill, as even 30MHz is already way more than you will ever need for audio purpose.

The red capacitor (look like a Wima?) next to the opamp is probably for decoupling (*V+ and V-). In short, it is there to provide extra stability in case of any fast voltage fluctuation.


----------



## Zweiguys

ClieOS said:


> Resistors on the BUF634 is to push it into wide bandwidth mode (from 30 MHz to 180 MHz). Think of it like an overdrive. Some think it gives a better sound that way but other think it is an overkill, as even 30MHz is already way more than you will ever need for audio purpose.
> 
> The red capacitor (look like a Wima?) next to the opamp is probably for decoupling (*V+ and V-). In short, it is there to provide extra stability in case of any fast voltage fluctuation.


Thanks for that info. Do you feel these changes/additions are worth it overall? 
How about the caps included in the diy kit? I read through most, if not all, of this thread and haven’t seen much mention of them.


----------



## ClieOS

Zweiguys said:


> Thanks for that info. Do you feel these changes/additions are worth it overall?
> How about the caps included in the diy kit? I read through most, if not all, of this thread and haven’t seen much mention of them.



I have not tried wide bandwidth mode on the buffer so I can't comment about it. The Wima on the opamp should be fairly benign though I don't think it will have any drastic effect to the sound. The one I will recommend modding is actually the input caps, which are those two goldish caps next to the opamp on the picture above.


----------



## Zweiguys

Has there been any in depth discussion on changing the caps you mention? I’m up to page 118 of this thread and the topic of caps is starting to be talked about. I’d like a better understanding of what it is I’m reading. 
I’m not sure I’d attempt any component replacing. I’ve done plenty of cap replacement on iMac G5 computers and had my share of lifted solder pads. I don’t want to ruin a perfectly good amp. I do though wish to learn about what I’m hearing and what it is that makes it sound the way it does. 
Currently I have fiio X5ii, E12diy with opa627 and ha5002 driving a Massdrop HD6xx. 
Again, thank you for taking the time to help me out.


----------



## ClieOS

Zweiguys said:


> Has there been any in depth discussion on changing the caps you mention? I’m up to page 118 of this thread and the topic of caps is starting to be talked about. I’d like a better understanding of what it is I’m reading.
> I’m not sure I’d attempt any component replacing. I’ve done plenty of cap replacement on iMac G5 computers and had my share of lifted solder pads. I don’t want to ruin a perfectly good amp. I do though wish to learn about what I’m hearing and what it is that makes it sound the way it does.
> Currently I have fiio X5ii, E12diy with opa627 and ha5002 driving a Massdrop HD6xx.
> Again, thank you for taking the time to help me out.



You won't find a lot of info about input caps on this thread. The best bet is to search the DIY forum for older threads. One thing I will suggest is to put in pin socket instead of soldering the caps directly to the PCB.

Also read this: https://tangentsoft.net/audio/input-cap.html
^That where I started my caps rolling journey all those years ago. The rest are all trial and error to find what best suit your taste.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Bluess said:


> Hi guys, after a few weeks listening to V5iD, muses02 and SS3602  pairing with LM49600.
> 
> My setup: X7II + E12DIY in high gain + Norne Draugh V2C + Denon D7200.
> 
> ...



How's the battery life with the V5i and SS3602?


----------



## snellemin

I got to solder the supplied smd resistors onto the board.  I had to do this at work under the microscope.  Now the unit is permanent in WB mode.  So now I have another DIY for reference purposes.  So changes I hear isn't just in my head.

Below are the original resistors.  They are right underneath the buffer sockets.




 


Below are the new ones supplied.


----------



## Zweiguys (May 16, 2019)

Give us your impressions when you’ve gotten an earful. R23 & R19 correct?
What’s you serial numbers?
I have 0082 gold.


----------



## snellemin

Zweiguys said:


> Give us your impressions when you’ve gotten an earful. R23 & R19 correct?
> What’s you serial numbers?
> I have 0082 gold.



I like the AD8620, Gold caps and Buf634 a lot.  Currently running Muses02 in it with the Buf634 and the Gold caps.  The sound is more "mellow".  Good for brighter headphones and using with the Vmoda Crossfade2.

The other unit has the Muses01 and Buf634 in it.
I have serial number 135 and 41.


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Since I don't need my E12DIY to be portable anymore, I allowed myself to mod the case, so I could fit practically any opamp inside of it.



 

 

 

All I need now is the Burson V6 combo, and the SparkoS Labs SS3602.


----------



## bogginhead

I recently purchased some metal film resistors and capacitors for my E12 DIY.  The resistors arrived today, but I think I may have ordered the wrong voltage.  They're 220 ohm but 2w.  I've read I probably should have ordered the 1/4w, but can I use these at all?


----------



## ClieOS

bogginhead said:


> I recently purchased some metal film resistors and capacitors for my E12 DIY.  The resistors arrived today, but I think I may have ordered the wrong voltage.  They're 220 ohm but 2w.  I've read I probably should have ordered the 1/4w, but can I use these at all?



Sure can. You can use overrated components jut fine, but not underrated.


----------



## bogginhead

ClieOS said:


> Sure can. You can use overrated components jut fine, but not underrated.


Cool  Thanks, man!


----------



## bogginhead

Is it possible for me to be able to use Elna Silmic II 22uf 25v capacitors?  Apparently Ali Express has messed up my order, but if I can use the caps then I'd like to.


----------



## ClieOS (Jun 6, 2019)

bogginhead said:


> Is it possible for me to be able to use Elna Silmic II 22uf 25v capacitors?  Apparently Ali Express has messed up my order, but if I can use the caps then I'd like to.



Two questions:

1) Where are you planning to use them? If they are input caps, then you are fine. General line-out is usually just 2V, so double of that should be more than enough. However, there is the problem of size. Too big a capacity means the caps will be big and won't fit inside the case.

2) No much a question but a warning - never buy electronic parts from Ali Express or Taobao (or from China in general), as there is a very good chance you will end up with fake parts. They will most likely still work, but not up to the same performance as the real deal.


----------



## bogginhead

This is what they look like:


----------



## ClieOS

bogginhead said:


> This is what they look like:



Look doesn't mean anything. For opamp, bad vendors often sand away the original marking of very cheap opamp and remark it as expensive opemp. For caps, the outer sleeve can be peeled off and new one put on with little to no effort.

For example, I often see MUSES02 being sold on Taobao for less than $5, but the real deal is almost $50 each from official distributor. Even if you buy them in bulk (like a few thousands at a time) directly from NJR, you still can't get it to be as cheap as Taobao's price. Elna Silmic II usually goes for about $0.2 each, which seems cheap enough that no one will bother faking, but the truth is bad vendors often substitute them with caps that costs $0.02 (if not less) each and make 10 times the profit.


----------



## bogginhead

Honestly, I'm not sure if I'll be needing to use these as input caps or what; I'm pretty sure that they're going to be used where the red Wima caps are at the moment.


----------



## ClieOS

bogginhead said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure if I'll be needing to use these as input caps or what; I'm pretty sure that they're going to be used where the *red Wima caps* are at the moment.



Those are the input caps.


----------



## bogginhead

Ok; thank you.  So do you think I could use the 22uf 25v Silmic II in place of the Wima caps?


----------



## Zweiguys

@bogginhead I like your style! You’re getting right in up to your neck with the learning and modding of the E12diy. I’ve been so afraid of making a mess of mine that I only swap out op amp and buffer. Would love the nerve to replace the caps.


----------



## ClieOS

bogginhead said:


> Ok; thank you.  So do you think I could use the 22uf 25v Silmic II in place of the Wima caps?



As long as the size clear, yes.


----------



## bogginhead

Zweiguys said:


> @bogginhead I like your style! You’re getting right in up to your neck with the learning and modding of the E12diy. I’ve been so afraid of making a mess of mine that I only swap out op amp and buffer. Would love the nerve to replace the caps.


Thanks, man.  I'm just like you though, for real; I really do not want to screw up my (at least somewhat) limited edition and probably best sounding portable amp.  So far all I've swapped are op-amps and buffers as well, and I filed down a spot inside the case so I could get a dip-8 Muses 01 / 02 to fit with the case closed.  I'm just taking my time with it, and double checking everything I do, lol.


----------



## bogginhead

ClieOS said:


> As long as the size clear, yes.


Ok; thanks again!


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Just arrived...


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Did anyone had the chance to check out the Nobsound/Douk Audio discrete op amps? Are they any good?


----------



## Hal Rockwell

Found these TRULIS opamps being sold on Penon audio, but didn't find any more info about those. Does anyone know what they are and do they worth getting?


----------



## Zweiguys

snellemin said:


> Got bored and finally installed stand-offs for the capacitors.  Now I can roll caps too.


snellemin, would you passalong a source for the pcb pin sockets used for the caps? 
Thanks


----------



## ClieOS

Zweiguys said:


> snellemin, would you passalong a source for the pcb pin sockets used for the caps?
> Thanks



You can just take the pin socket out of any spare DIP socket (the same one used on the opamp) and use them as individual socket instead.


----------



## Zweiguys

ClieOS said:


> You can just take the pin socket out of any spare DIP socket (the same one used on the opamp) and use them as individual socket instead.


Thanks, but I’m not sure I have anything like that here.


----------



## ClieOS

Zweiguys said:


> Thanks, but I’m not sure I have anything like that here.



A DIP socket is dirt cheap and easy to get. All you need to do is get a few from eBay or Amazon with the rounded inner socket (*don't get those with flat spring socket), then crack one open with a small plier (or just push it from the bottom)  to get the socket out. If you really prefer not to crack open a DIP socket, you can still find strip header socket easily (*though you still have to cut the socket out nonetheless).

Unless you live in the middle of nowhere, I doubt you can't find one.


----------



## Zweiguys

ClieOS said:


> A DIP socket is dirt cheap and easy to get. All you need to do is get a few from eBay or Amazon with the rounded inner socket (*don't get those with flat spring socket), then crack one open with a small plier (or just push it from the bottom)  to get the socket out. If you really prefer not to crack open a DIP socket, you can still find strip header socket easily (*though you still have to cut the socket out nonetheless).
> 
> Unless you live in the middle of nowhere, I doubt you can't find one.


Like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-PCS-Stri...396348&hash=item340a2148aa:g:2wwAAOSw7hRWQCzj


----------



## ClieOS

Zweiguys said:


> Like this:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-PCS-Stri...396348&hash=item340a2148aa:g:2wwAAOSw7hRWQCzj



That one should do just fine.


----------



## Zweiguys (Aug 4, 2019)

dip sockets arrived. Where can I order the nerve to try the install?
My thought is to clip the existing cap leads and remove them one at a time in the direction that they are inserted. Thinking this will pull the solder pad toward the board. Is there a solder pad? Or is this a layered board?
@snellemin What's the value of the gold caps? Any particular things to watch out for/avoid?
Thanks, Keith
Edit: Is this the cap I’m looking for?
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...GAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22Vaq1AHMe%2BCM04bxH5HmkYg=


----------



## snellemin

Zweiguys said:


> dip sockets arrived. Where can I order the nerve to try the install?
> My thought is to clip the existing cap leads and remove them one at a time in the direction that they are inserted. Thinking this will pull the solder pad toward the board. Is there a solder pad? Or is this a layered board?
> @snellemin What's the value of the gold caps? Any particular things to watch out for/avoid?
> Thanks, Keith
> ...


Mine are 22uf 25v.  Same value as what u have listed.


----------



## bogginhead

I have new capacitors and resistors to try out in my E12 DIY (Silmic II and KOA) but I'm not really sure on how to do the swap-out.  Any guides available that anyone might know about?  Thankfully, I do know for sure that I have the correct voltage and all for everything.


----------



## Zweiguys

Removed the stock caps and installed pin sockets ala @snellemin. It was very straightforward and I didn’t encounter any issues. I installed the supplied caps for now. I have some silmic II and a muses 01 on the way from mouser.
Thanks to @ClieOS , @snellemin and @bogginhead for the help and encouragement.


----------



## Mad Max

Those Silmics are high ESR, they definitely need some bypass film caps.  I recommend 400V WIMA MKP4s or 160V (or greater) Vishay MKP1839s, the latter is my favorite.  100nF or more, it's up to you.
 unless there are some ceramic decoupling caps nearby somewhere in the circuit, you're likely to get a bit of "compression" in your sound with just Silmics.


----------



## Zweiguys

Mad Max said:


> Those Silmics are high ESR, they definitely need some bypass film caps.  I recommend 400V WIMA MKP4s or 160V (or greater) Vishay MKP1839s, the latter is my favorite.  100nF or more, it's up to you.
> unless there are some ceramic decoupling caps nearby somewhere in the circuit, you're likely to get a bit of "compression" in your sound with just Silmics.


Will any harm be done to the circuitry if I use only the Elena silmic II caps I have on order? I also have some of the gold Nichicon caps coming as shown in
post #2332 by @snellemin. 
Is the red component attached to the op amp a bypass film cap? (Same post #)


----------



## ClieOS

Zweiguys said:


> Will any harm be done to the circuitry if I use only the Elena silmic II caps I have on order? I also have some of the gold Nichicon caps coming as shown in
> post #2332 by @snellemin.
> Is the red component attached to the op amp a bypass film cap? (Same post #)



It won't technically 'harm' the circuit if you use only Silmic II. Whether you like the sound on it alone or with another bypass film caps together is however really more of a personal taste.


----------



## Zweiguys

ClieOS said:


> It won't technically 'harm' the circuit if you use only Silmic II. Whether you like the sound on it alone or with another bypass film caps together is however really more of a personal taste.



Where in the circuit would I install the additional cap(s)? Is it here?


----------



## ClieOS (Aug 13, 2019)

Zweiguys said:


> Where in the circuit would I install the additional cap(s)? Is it here?



I think I already answered the same question before on your previous post - it is between V+ and V- on the opamp socket.

If you still have no idea - read this page and look for the picture of pinout for the dual channels opamp: https://tangentsoft.net/elec/opamp-tester.html

p/s: Though I always encourage the DIY spirit, you should really read into the theory and reasoning before doing any mod.


----------



## Zweiguys

Muses 01 arrived along with two different types of input caps. My case required very little grinding in order for the op amp to fit. Ordered the caps for the op amp socket but I’ll wait to get a feel for what it is I’m hearing and if I feel it needs any adjustment. Time to slow down and see what I have going on. 
 The new sound is very nice. Making it easier to weed out the poor recordings I have.


----------



## bogginhead

Zweiguys said:


> Muses 01 arrived along with two different types of input caps. My case required very little grinding in order for the op amp to fit. Ordered the caps for the op amp socket but I’ll wait to get a feel for what it is I’m hearing and if I feel it needs any adjustment. Time to slow down and see what I have going on.
> The new sound is very nice. Making it easier to weed out the poor recordings I have.



Awesome  I'm trying to dredge up the courage to start on mine!!!


----------



## Zweiguys

Mad Max said:


> Those Silmics are high ESR, they definitely need some bypass film caps.  I recommend 400V WIMA MKP4s or 160V (or greater) Vishay MKP1839s, the latter is my favorite.  100nF or more, it's up to you.
> unless there are some ceramic decoupling caps nearby somewhere in the circuit, you're likely to get a bit of "compression" in your sound with just Silmics.


Installed the Vishay MKP 1839 at the values stated. Cleaned up the sound a bit. 
I soldered the cap directly to the muses 01. That’s was not my preferred way but I had trouble coming up with a way that I felt comfortable with doing. 
Will changing the value of these caps have any effect on sound. If not I’ll leave well enough alone. If so I’ll come up with a way to install pin sockets so I can easily swap caps.


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## Zweiguys (Oct 22, 2019)

Looking for some clarification regarding R25/R27  R22/R20   (L:R20/R27)
This is mentioned on the included instruction sheet. States the gain multiplier on the high gain setting will be changed. Changed to more gain or less?
Can someone explain what resistors get moved and to where?


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## Zweiguys (Oct 24, 2019)

Pics


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## bogginhead

Does anyone know where I might find a replacement battery for my E12 DIY?  I've looked everywhere on the internet and haven't found the correct one anywhere so far after a week of looking.  Messaged FIIO and haven't received any response.


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## hoekeat

bogginhead said:


> Does anyone know where I might find a replacement battery for my E12 DIY?  I've looked everywhere on the internet and haven't found the correct one anywhere so far after a week of looking.  Messaged FIIO and haven't received any response.


I am running into same problem. Similarly, Fiio is not replying.
Is there any compatible battery we can use? Or any LiPo that match the voltage will do?


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## KittySneeze (Sep 15, 2020)

Not sure this is helpful, but in the past FiiO has offered to conduct the repairs themselves, or even send instructions and battery to the customer. See the thread here for verification. Maybe try contacting them via their support email.

I’d be wary of sourcing batteries yourself since it is such an integral part of how portables function, and may result in power/audio issues in the device overall. However, they do mention you can replace the battery yourself so long as you can solder, so if you can find a matching spec battery that fits the size requirements, that is possible. Here’s the specs in case you didn’t have it.

Edit: This may work. It seems like the correct spec, but not sure about it’s quality or size in relation to the E12 chassis.


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## Danthuyer

Looking to buy one of these DIY units ... PM me


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## Danthuyer

I know this thread is old ... and I have 150+ pages to catch up on. However I manged to get in touch with FiiO directly recently and I am now the proud owner of unit number #72 / 2000  

Now time to read up on what the rest have you have done and play around with my imod classic 3rd gen


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## Zweiguys

Have fun and keep us posted on you changes and mods.


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## Ronion

Danthuyer said:


> I know this thread is old ... and I have 150+ pages to catch up on. However I manged to get in touch with FiiO directly recently and I am now the proud owner of unit number #72 / 2000
> 
> Now time to read up on what the rest have you have done and play around with my imod classic 3rd gen


They are still selling them?


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