# Leaving portable hifi - it's too silly



## Luminette

*The purpose of this post is to be educational*

 Let's get to the summit of my portable (if it can even be called that anymore) hifi experience -

 An iMod with an External v-cap dock (higher grade than the ALO portable v-cap) powered by either iQube or SR-71A, with a pair of APS V3 recabled Ultrasone Edition 9s (or HD600s for testing). The LOD(Line-out Dock) and mini-to-mini are a 22g jena / silver configuration.






 (The Monster)





 (Forgive my ugly mug - my displeasure with the rig results has distorted it horribly)

 I have listened to several portable amps aside from these, as well, and normal iPod sound vs iMod and such, just about every variation you can concoct. 


*It all sounds really lame.*

 Let me move into the conclusions I've made in understanding the virility of the current portable hifi craze
*
 How it is sustained:*

 Firstly, you have a lot of new people coming into hifi audio at all. They don't know anything. It's evident that there is a whole community out there revolving around this stuff and there must be something to it - and they are music lovers, curious about better sound (as the pursuit of a nice headphone likely drove them here to begin with). Chances are, it's someone younger than not, and someone with an iPod or Zune (or some pdap)

 So the portable hifi possibility immediately appeals. It's way more convenient.. the size.. and the entry-level pricing is cheap! Plenty of popular sub $100 portable headphone amps. And LODs or Mini-to-Minis can be had for nearly scratch. 

 I think it's common that people see threads *like the "post your portable rig" and the idea of a portable rig seems less crazy. 

 Add in the reviews and raves from people that are often ignorant (lack of experience with much else gear, especially home gear) and/or are some of the token mega-reviewers here with a gigantic post count and tons of articulated impressions that leave a newb feeling like the person knows what they are talking about. A lot of these reviewers I think have a gap-filling addiction with some of this stuff and quite enjoy their position as reknowned reviewer of this or that. They're often off in their impressions, just outright crazy. And almost always fail to explain just how tiny any of the differences or aspects of portable components are (though this trend is not limited to_ portable_ hifi)

 However, with portable hi-fi, you have a much fresher set of people with interest and I think they are more susceptable to all of these things.

 I don't think it should be excluded that people also like to fit in. Just find the number of "______ owners unite!" kinds of threads or witness the ongoing interactions between people in long-running review threads for individual products. 

 We all, well, some people, tell us that everyone hears differently etc. It gets taken to such a baby-coddling degree that really anytime a person is displeased people on both sides are ready to write it off as not being their personal taste. It's like people aren't even thinking to question the integrity of the component, or any other possibilities outside of the idea of it just not being their taste. This kind of neutralizing should technically rule out every single impression we have here, then, as they are all personal experiences from people with varying personal tastes. Now how silly would that be?

 Last thing to mention for this segment is that there is a very widespread distrust or outright phobia of anything "DIY". This is mostly fueled by not understanding what's in play - how it all works and is assembled. The reality is, most of the vendors we have here are just 1-2 man outfits who are DIYing but with a website and a proclaimed business entity. If it's not being streamlined like an iPod, it's DIY. Get over it. DIY is value. Your ears _and_ your wallet will love you simultaneously for the first time since you got into this

 ---

 Now, let's factor in some things pertaining to the products themselves


 Pretty much every portable amp out there is a really really basic design. If the community here had any idea what the mark-up ratio was I think we'd start seeing better bang for our buck as the next manufacturers start becoming people competing with each other (or just knowing they can't get away with bs anymore) as opposed to being the next in line to offer a box full of 10% of what you're spending on it. 

 The portable amp boom from so many people - and so many units, let's you know just how lucrative an arena it is. And the ever-expanding portable amp price tags. Not that simply monitoring the level of activity and headcount in the portable forums won't do the job.


 Oh, and the boom of LODs and their makers as well. You can see just how simple and cheap it is by the number of consistently-in-business DIYers we have here offering these things, often using the same materials 


 What's impractical about all of this is, well, where do I start:


*The size? * They are actually smaller than you would think from photos - often times. And yet, you suddenly realize how impractical the idea of taking this thing with you everywhere in addition to your PDAP is.

*The weight?* Often more than your PDAP itself - especially once you jam two 9volts or four AAAs in there. Oh, and they're too weighty for shirt pockets really - better not bend forward more than 45 degrees.

*The shape?* Hard corners and edges made out of metal. Be nice to your thighs.

*Batteries? * Having to buy some rechargables and a charger can get real pricy, real fast. At least half of the popular portable amps need AAs / AAAs or 9Vs. Let's mention how quickly these discharge and that they only last for so many cycles. And if you want the low discharge ones, you're paying even more. Hopefully I don't need to point out the impracticality of running through non-rechargables constantly.

*The sound itself? * Portable amps do not sound good. The closest thing to a portable amp that really begins getting the job done is the Lisa III. And the Lisa III weighs a lot, is huge, and takes one hour to charge for one hour to play. And it's also among the very top of the price range (though it dramatically slaughters all the portable amps in the price range around it) These amps are really basic designs that deliver really basic sound.

*The price?* You're mostly paying for a chassis and their profit. The components themselves are cheap. The R&D is often inexistent. The designing is far from complex. And with LODs, oh boy, the pricing on some of these for the near irrelevance of their role to the sound is staggering. Copper and silver are cheap. Real cheap. Especially 5-6 inches of it.
*
 The price in relation to the sound? *A portable amp is an amp that runs on batteries. But portable amps sound like poop. The size is relevant, and yet, most of them aren't even coming close to having their design maximized, or the space fully used. The level at which these are stomped by good home amp choices in the same price range is horrifying. 

*The fragility / wear & tear liability? * Expensive stuff to be lugging around, in a pocket or elsewise. More than a few are accidentally pulled off of a surface top or dropped. Sometimes they break from this, too. Components like the jacks come loose. LODs are just begging to be destroyed in any kind of pocket or backpack environment. Especially if you have silver content - which plenty LODs do. They are also often very rigid - in the case of the 18g Jena cabling it's become frequent that the constant stress of the LOD reverting to a tension-free shape will break the jacks on these things.
*
 The financial liability? * Oops, you just lost your $500 portable rig. Oops, someone stole your $500 portable rig. Oops, your $500 portable rig just broke because it's made out of poop.

*Is hifi sound even practical for a portable application? *I'd actually readily say that it definitely can be. I myself love to go to a park and lay in the grass and really listen.. or zone out while on a car or train ride (headphone isolation can make things like trains relevantly practical for this kind of litsening). It_ is _still worth mentioning, though, that probably most portable applications are not fit for hifi listening! Things like black background and microdetails (and the general idea of truly being immersed in the music to an extent that hearing it this well doesn't happen) are decimated by outside noise. Chances are you'd see a bigger boost in performance by getting better isolating headphones / IEMs. Are you actually going to be in a focused enough state while in portable application to where you won't be interrupted or taking your headphones off every 5-10 minutes, thus keeping immersion pretty absent?


 A few other notes on some of the misleading or misunderstood things relevant to all of this fiasco. Spending $100, let alone $200 on an LOD is sillier than silly. 

 The iPod is really not a revealing enough of a source to be fretting over your interconnects. Nor is the rest of most any iPod rig going to be revealing enough for that.

 And the difference would be so incredibly minimal, at best. To a point where you're MUCH better off spending that overpriced LOD money on a basic LOD and sinking the rest into a better pair of headphones - way more performance gain to be had in going that route.

 The idea of spending that much money on nearly irrelevant parts of portable rig instead of upgrading the other components is nuts. Hell, you'd be better off spending that kind of money on a headphone recable - and that would still be pretty silly to do for a portable application. The difference is just so negligible to begin with, on the best of home setups - let alone on a comparatively incompetent portable setup. Also, if you think "cryo" means anything at all, or costs anything at all, you need to fix this.

 Another point to mention - specifically with IEM recables ( and things like the koss ksc75) is that they often add significantly more weight to the cable, which can be a nuisance if not something to constantly loosen your fit.

 The whole concept is also silly if you're neglecting the entirely free and quite substantial upgrade of using files with the absolute least or absolutely no compression (I'm a lossless guy myself - but PDAP space is very limited). Getting your ears cleaned is probably a significantly better value than most components in a portable setup, too. 

 Audio hifi is especially bad with the reality of diminishing returns. Portable hifi is the absolute worst with it. 


 My advice? act sensibly in accordance with the points I've made 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hardly am telling people to stop pursuing portable hifi. Chances are, though, you're better off with a pair of easily driven headphones ( if you're an IEM user, just get some UE11s and drop the amp and LOD) that cost your normal headphone price plus the added funds of skipping or selling the amp and LOD (or mini-to-mini). 

 I support the pursuit of the portable hifi, always will, but it needs to make the leap to where there is actually an audiophile dap with an audiophile amp all in a single unit. iBasso has a project of this going on right now but I'm not holding my breath - I imagine they will still compromise battery life / storage space - and it's far off, for those ready to take immediate interest, cool your horses 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But it's progress, and tip of the hat to them for it.

 Me? I'm reverting to a normal iPod with a pair of sennheiser PX 100s and/or a pair of sennheiser HD280 pros. I've been so content with the px 100s out of my ipod headphone out lately. I may go for a pair of Livewires or even UE11s someday. I'll save the real listening for a nice home rig. I'm going to be able to afford a rig that just indescribably destroys what my full-on iMod rig can do at current, for the same or less than what I've spent on it. I'll fund it all with the sale of this.

 A lot of people are happy with the sound of their portable rig - I'm saying you could be a lot happier, and for even less price if you play the cards right.

 I need to make a mention for PCDPs. There it is. Too many PCDPs, mostly older ones, outright destroy the audio quality of our PDAPs - whether by their headphone out or their line-out.





 (PX 100s - these things just sound way too good for $30)

 I would hope that more newcomers consider skipping the portable hifi sinkhole and getting to experience what headphone hifi is really about. Go to meets and experience gear, it's priceless _and_ money-saving. And be careful about the hype on head-fi. We see several popular items of the month here and they're almost always a huge let-down, with what I've experienced so far.

 I'm hardly a spoiled audiophile - I've not got any grand rigs or anything. What I've got is in the photos up there. I fund my audio quest with a measley $8.60 an hour - and I think a lot of other portable hifi consumers are also going with this option in the idea that it's the more affordable route to put your foot in the door with hearing some good sound. It's just not true. And even if you're a billionaire, why waste a cent of it?


 If anyone has any questions, I'm here to help - feel free to PM me or get ahold of me via any of the messengers listed under my name at the top of the post

 Thanks for reading 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [size=xx-small]Quick infos:

 PDAP = Portable Digital Audio Player
 PCDP = Portable CD Player
 LOD = Line-out Dock

 Also, this thread has evolved a good amount now - please read through it before diving in![/size]


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## skamp

What is a LOD? And what fairly-priced Hi-Fi gear do you recommend? I'm drooling over the Pico because I want a USB DAC with a headphone amplifier, but I'm pretty sure it's way overpriced. I don't much care about the size though (I wouldn't mind a much larger, non-portable unit if the price is right).


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## ZoNtO

Nice write-up man, seriously....


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## energie

yup i almost agree but this is like a passion and passions make ppl happy. Who care if you spend 100$ on a LOD? that's ok if you are happy with it, even if i agree is silly.

 man, ppl waste so many $$$ to psychologist just because they are not happy. Most of the times they dont even know why.

 Btw since you are leaving....can i have all your stuffs ?=D

 take it easy!


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## panda

while i agree with your points, i'm afraid your movement attempt will be in vain as i'm pretty sure the typical demographic is going to just end up with the desktop equivalent meaning cheap and hardly an upgrade...


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## Luminette

Haha, I'm not leaving hifi. I'm here because I love music and I am so not leaving music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And I am definitely keeping the Ed 9s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm just not going to neglect a nice home experience over a super diminishing returns super impractical super... well, you read the post 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for the "movement" - I'm just putting out some feedback and maybe steering a few people straighter for their dollar

 Oh, and Skamp - The Pico DAC is actually pretty nice - and many people enjoy it as an amp as well (I don't - I find the mids too forward and dominant). I don't have particular suggestions for you right now (my area of research with the home setup has been in a price range just above the Pico budget). After a year I finally feel like I know how to shop this stuff (after the typical blunders). If footprint isn't an issue to you, I think you can easily find a better dac and amp solution for the same pricing - especially for the amp chunk.


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## energie

who care if you can have both home and portable setuo?


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## skamp

Guys, could someone please tell me what LOD stands for? I keep seeing that acronym but I haven't found a definition.


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## energie

maibe use the search button?

 LOD line out dock


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## Spadge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Guys, could someone please tell me what LOD stands for? I keep seeing that acronym but I haven't found a definition._

 

LOD = Line Out Dock and it how you connect an amp to your iPod via the dock connector.

 As for leaving portable-fi... I don't think my ears are good enough to be able to tell the difference between a good portable setup and a home one. 

 Paul


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## Currawong

Line out Dock. It goes usually from an iPod's proprietary connector to an amp, as that bypasses the iPod's inbuilt volume control, which doesn't sound as good.

 Luminette: Nice rant. I have been contemplating selling my SF10s for this reason. I might give them one last shot with a replacement cable though. The only way I could carry around an iPod and amp would be if I strapped both onto my belt in some way or used a bag of some kind.


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## yukihiro

i just started getting into portable amps, but have not gone higher than the pa2v2. i was originally planning on getting a $150-200 portable but i realized that a home setup is probably a better bang for my buck, especially since i don't wear my headphones out that much.

 i have never thought about getting iem's, but lately i've been contemplating whether i should invest in a pair. i think the fiio e5 will be my last portable amp because i just can't justify paying so much for a portable setup.

 i will probably be spending my money on a home amp/dac and possibly a pair of iem's. a small-sized sound isolation seems very appealing since outside noise is pretty loud.

 after using the pa2v2, i began to wonder if when people say an amp sounds "good" maybe they really mean "better"


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## brandnewgame

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yukihiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i just started getting into portable amps, but have not gone higher than the pa2v2. i was originally planning on getting a $150-200 portable but i realized that a home setup is probably a better bang for my buck, especially since i don't wear my headphones out that much.

 i have never thought about getting iem's, but lately i've been contemplating whether i should invest in a pair. i think the fiio e5 will be my last portable amp because i just can't justify paying so much for a portable setup.

 i will probably be spending my money on a home amp/dac and possibly a pair of iem's. a small-sized sound isolation seems very appealing since outside noise is pretty loud.

 after using the pa2v2, i began to wonder if when people say an amp sounds "good" maybe they really mean "better"_

 

The FiiOs just a bass boost. Get a good sounding DAP and some IEMs with enough bass already. FiiO is a last ditch attempt to save bassless phones.


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## Zorander

Excellent write-up! I recently ditched the Move and was happy with just the iPod out into the Er-6i. Sadly the jack on the ipod broke and I have to revert back to using the Move (line-out dock). The moment I fix that jack is the moment the Move gets retired once again. Carrying around a metal "sandwich" (interconnected by a funny-looking short cable, no less!) makes me feel self-conscious, not to mention all the pluggin' I have to do every time. Not easily done when not sitting, especially on the bus. Easier to just whip out the player and earphone and blast away!


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## Little Bob

It's hard to disagree with a lot of what you have said there.

 All I can say is that the bits I have bought have definitely increased my listening pleasure - so much so that at times I find myself literally grinning due to the SQ I now have (IMHO of course).

 Portable suits me - I wouldn't have chance to listen to a home specific set up
 too much, I need to have my gear with me when I am mobile. 

 I totally accept that a home rig will trounce a portable for SQ, as a general rule, - but then they aren't as compromised as a quality portable rig has to be (power source/size/weight/durability etc).

 Most quality portable equipment retains its value pretty well - when you sell it, compare what you paid for it and the length of time you have enjoyed it and I believe in this sense it's not all that expensive.


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## brandnewgame

If you are going to be outside very often when listening to music then a home setup may not be worth the investment. While you're right about the expense of high quality small equipment (high quality and small used loosely), for some it's the only option for improving listening quality. I think a Sanza Fuze (or other high quality DAP) is probably a better trade off than portable amps.


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## Luminette

If a portable application is all that's practical for the person, then that's that. I'm not taking any stance against that


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## jamato8

What ever floats you down that river of bliss. Sometimes it is the wind in the trees. It's portable and free. All these electronickey things. I wonder if T Rex would have rocked out? :^)


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## brandnewgame

I admit that I'm the epitome of your post. I've just bought an iMod, LOD, iBasso D2, overpriced interconnect and before they've even arrived (everything but the D2) I know the size of the rig will constantly irritate me. I'm outside studying half of every day though, and also want a portable USB DAC since I take Software Engineering and always carry a laptop with me. I already dislike the D2 with my cans more than all but one of my laptop headphone outs (high hats and cymbals all sound like they're part cowbell) so I'm willing to move on to the next regrettable purchase hours after the last, doubting the ability of portable audio to satisfy me. Funny that I was satisfied by cheap DAP -> Sennheiser CX300s a few weeks ago.

 On the bright side I've ordered a Xiang Sheng 708B (or is that dark side with those tubes?) which I intend to modify in my first attempt at DIY. I just hope there's a point where I can be satisfied enough to wait for a hardware burn out before another purchase.


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## jamato8

I remember years ago when I had a Sony Sports portable cassette player and the yellow headset that came with it. Damn that was fine and I had some of the most enjoyable music I have ever had accompany me. The mood was there. I like my Ed. 9 and I like PortaPros.


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## yukihiro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brandnewgame* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The FiiOs just a bass boost. Get a good sounding DAP and some IEMs with enough bass already. FiiO is a last ditch attempt to save bassless phones._

 

it may just be a bass boost, but i feel like it helps tame the highs from my 325i's. maybe the fiio just gives me a sound signature that i like, because i like how it sounds.

 i feel like my sansa fuze is sufficient as a dap... i guess it's time to get a pair of iem's. i probably won't be spending more than $100 on iem's since i'm probably going to abuse them as they'll be tossed in my backpack, unlike my full-sized headphones...

 ugh, i guess i do need iem's if i plan to listen to music in the library


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## brandnewgame

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yukihiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it may just be a bass boost, but i feel like it helps tame the highs from my 325i's. maybe the fiio just gives me a sound signature that i like, because i like how it sounds.

 i feel like my sansa fuze is sufficient as a dap... i guess it's time to get a pair of iem's. i probably won't be spending more than $100 on iem's since i'm probably going to abuse them as they'll be tossed in my backpack, unlike my full-sized headphones...

 ugh, i guess i do need iem's if i plan to listen to music in the library_

 

For me the tamed highs with the FiiO seem like the result of the spectrum becoming more bass orientated




 But I admit I'm new to this whole hifi experience..

 I'm listening to closed cans in a library right now and as I take them off I can barely hear the output.. and I'm the only one right next to them. Add the fact that when I'm listening to them they're pressed against my head and I'd be very surprised if anyone else could hear them. They're also loud enough that I might want to turn them down.. IEMs are handy for improved sound isolation with foam tips/customs, but their sound is as tiny as the hole the sound comes out of. They're handy for analytical purposes, though.

 edit: To avoid needing a FiiO with an IEM, I'd recommend either a dual armature or dynamic driver. The SA6s or UE Super.fi 5 v2s might cut it..


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## wavoman

Comments for the OP:

 1. Agree Senn PX-100 are excellent, they got my into this game in the first place. But they are open, which can be a no-no in certain places. Their closed sibling, the PX-200, does not sound as good. Best folding closed can I have found so far is the AT ATH-ES5.

 2. With these, or good IEMs (I have Shure 500), portable _is_ worth it, and an amp makes a big difference even to these old ears (and everyone else at the gym or the office).

 3. A Predator (or Pico) and an i7 (or similar), cabled with an IC and lashed with velcro, fit in the tiny soft camera cases sold everywhere and easily fit in a pocket, ready to play. I leave them both on, set to shuffle, and simply hit play, re-zip the case with the HP cable just sticking out where the zipper closes. No sharp corners, and I can do this while the treadmill is moving. No exposed metal, no problem not being seated. You're not trying hard enough.

 4. If you think an iQube is "poop", you are reacting to something other than its SQ. For "serious" portable listening, like on a friend's deck with two phones and a Y connector, the iQube and my RWA 5.5 Gen (Wolfson DAC) iMod with uncompressed files is damn impressive and has power to spare, driving both. This rig goes with me on long vacations too. Wife brings portable Panasonic cans that are junk, but have an attenuator in the cord, so we both can listen at our chosen volumes. Looking out the big Ahwahnee Lodge window at the Yosemite mountains by moonlight at midnight, you and your girl (wife) both listening to the same "right" music is magic man, I guarantee it works.

 Oh but you're giving up on this stuff, sorry. You'll have to use your good looks and charm, neither of which I have.


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## DrBenway

A very well argued, principled position from someone who obviously knows what he is talking about. 

 I think it's worth keeping in mind, though, that very similar arguments are often made about high-end home equipment. Can anyone really tell the difference between a $500 interconnect and a $1500 interconnect? I've never done a blind A/B, but I doubt that I would be able to hear much, if any, improvement for the extra $1000. 

 There's that old saying: the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys (Not trying to be sexist. Applies to women also. Just harder to rhyme). Let's face it, we love gadgets around here, and the gadget value of a beautifully made amp or DAC gives many of us no end of enjoyment. Not to mention the hours spent poring over catalogs/websites/forums while dreaming of that next purchase or the ideal (really, really) perfect rig. That has not a blessed thing to do with sound, of course, but it brings legitimate pleasure to many of us, and I find it hard to criticize.

 Also, I think your post makes a very cogent argument for the budget-fi sub-forum discussed in tomwom's poll/thread. There should be a place for newcomers to find sanely priced stuff that will provide satisfying results with minimal expenditure. Such a forum might foster a sense of community among budget audiophiles that could serve as a buffer against the relentless upgrade philosophy. High-end geeks are proud of their stuff; budget geeks should be, too. Think of it as a practical application of the Team Mid-Fi idea.


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## brandnewgame

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wavoman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Comments for the OP:

 1. Agree Senn PX-100 are excellent, they got my into this game in the first place. But they are open, which can be a no-no in certain places. Their closed sibling, the PX-200, does not sound as good. Best folding closed can I have found so far is the AT ATH-ES5.

 2. With these, or good IEMs (I have Shure 500), portable is worth it, and an amp makes a big difference even to these old ears (and everyone else at the gym or the office).

 3. A Predator (or Pico) and an i7 (or similar), cabled with an IC and lashed with velcro, fit in the tiny soft camera cases sold everywhere and easily fit in a pocket, ready to play. I leave them both on, set to shuffle, and simply hit play, re-zip the case with the HP cable just sticking out where the zipper closes. No sharp corners, and I can do this while the treadmill is moving. No exposed metal, no problem not being seated. You're not trying hard enough.

 4. If you think an iQube is "poop", you are reacting to something other than its SQ. For "serious" portable listening, like on a friend's deck with two phones and a Y connector, the iQube and my RWA 5.5 Gen (Wolfson DAC) iMod with uncompressed files is damn impressive and has power to spare, driving both. This rig goes with me on long vacations too. Wife brings portable Panasonic cans that are junk, but have an attenuator in the cord, so we both can listen at our chosen volumes. Looking out the big Ahwahnee Lodge window at the Yosemite mountains by moonlight at midnight, you and your girl (wife) both listening to the same "right" music is magic man, I guarantee it works.

 Oh but you're giving up on this stuff, sorry. You'll have to use your good looks and charm, neither of which I have._

 

I think the point was that portable hifi has a comparitively poor bang for buck ratio, while many people make their first hifi purchases as extensions of their portable DAP since it's the easiest entrance point, then through dissatisfaction they keep upgrading when a similarly priced desktop setup would more than satisfy them. I agree that the extra bulk of an amp can be accomodated, though.


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## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but I'm pretty sure it's way overpriced._

 

I'm pretty sure that a fair comparison against its competitors would say otherwise.


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## skamp

The reviews here seem to say the Pico isn't that much better than its competitors; they're all good.


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## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The reviews here seem to say the Pico isn't that much better than its competitors; they're all good._

 

Yes, with some of those competitors costing more and some costing less. So to say that it's "way overpriced" is incorrect. And listener impressions aside the Pico is a veritable tour-de-force in terms of advanced technology compared with almost all of its piers. It was the first portable to use a truly high-end USB dac implementation rather than the same-old (decent but not great IMO) PCM27XX chip.


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## wfranklin

A very "illuminetting" review/commentary. I agree from the standpoint that the "best" portable rigs don't compare to good quality home rigs; however, a "reasonable" portable rig has, to me, been a great source of entertainment, particularly when I fly. I haven't gone past the iPod-->LOD-->iCube level yet, and probably won't. I was originally considering iMod with portable VCAP, but like you, the bigger the package gets, the less convenient it becomes. 90% of my HP listening is at the office, so the portable rig stays in the drawer most of the time.


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## yukihiro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brandnewgame* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For me the tamed highs with the FiiO seem like the result of the spectrum becoming more bass orientated




 But I admit I'm new to this whole hifi experience..

 I'm listening to closed cans in a library right now and as I take them off I can barely hear the output.. and I'm the only one right next to them. Add the fact that when I'm listening to them they're pressed against my head and I'd be very surprised if anyone else could hear them. They're also loud enough that I might want to turn them down.. IEMs are handy for improved sound isolation with foam tips/customs, but their sound is as tiny as the hole the sound comes out of. They're handy for analytical purposes, though.

 edit: To avoid needing a FiiO with an IEM, I'd recommend either a dual armature or dynamic driver. The SA6s or UE Super.fi 5 v2s might cut it.._

 

haha, i was looking at that chart yesterday. i'm new to the "experience" also, but my ears don't lie when it comes to the ringing in my ear as a result of the highs being too much. i agree that it's probably a result of the more bass oriented fiio. i'm just taking a guess, but looking at the chart, is it boosting the low end and slightly bringing down the high end? either way, i just like how it sounds with my 325i's


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## manaox2

I think most people find this stuff out sooner or later. If you really need an amp for portability, either your PDAP is likely not cutting it or your using the wrong headphone. 

 Its not that I do not agree that the iQube and PICO $500 truly portable amp make portable devices sound better, but there is no way that those portable headphones you use on average should need an additional $500 device in the middle to sound good, and $500 is many more times more effective at increasing quality for something like the HD600 or HD650 full sized headphones when spent on a good full-sized piece of equipment. 

 I fully believe a good portable cd player can rival the iMod. There really seems to be no such thing as anything close to being high-end in the portable arena, but I will bet good money that a simple 1st generation shuffle and UE11 IEM will blow any other similarly priced rig out of the water and into a different category. Get a decent DAP, a quality IEM or decent portable headphones, and skip the middle stuff in favor for something at home. Its just better, honestly.

 If you really need an amp, DIY a mini-3 and call it quits. Its just the order of things really; source, headphones, then amp, then analog cables, the rest is just expensive extra icing. If you have any crap in the chain, it only makes it as strong as the weakest link, its obvious though that your top two priorities should be your source and headphones. For portable listening done by the non-homeless, that should be plenty.


----------



## brandnewgame

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yukihiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_haha, i was looking at that chart yesterday. i'm new to the "experience" also, but my ears don't lie when it comes to the ringing in my ear as a result of the highs being too much. i agree that it's probably a result of the more bass oriented fiio. i'm just taking a guess, but looking at the chart, is it boosting the low end and slightly bringing down the high end? either way, i just like how it sounds with my 325i's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I agree that sustained periods of treble heavy music is a recipe for tinnitus 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're correct about the frequency response, but it doesn't say anything about how it could modify the actual sound beyond volume. For instance it could take the rough edge off the highs by reducing the strength of their attack, smoothing their presence, or it could just be an equaliser (anything is debatable).

 Whatever the case, any future headphone purchases should be based on the sound of the 325i+FiiO combination (not 325i alone), since that is your preferred sound signature. Glad you like it


----------



## nc8000

I've been there and backed down again. I topped out with iMod, ALO cryo dock and Xin Reference but in the end got tired of the size. I then had a Xin SuperMini, still the ALO cryo dock and iPod Nano 3rd gen but size still annoyed me when I also had to carry my phone. With the arrival of the 3G iPhone and the Etymotics HF2 I still get as much enjoyment from my music but in a much much smaller package. I can't see myself go back to carrying a bigger rig.

 However as I also travel a lot I do have a nice pcdp based hotelroom rig that I set up at the hotel and use at night and that is surely a lot better than the iPhone and also I like to peruse music shops (espcially second hand) after work hours and it is nice to be able to listen to the cd's right away.


----------



## ingwe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wavoman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking out the big Ahwahnee Lodge window at the Yosemite mountains by moonlight at midnight, you and your girl (wife) both listening to the same "right" music is magic man, I guarantee it works._

 

Off topic: Damn you!!! I love that place... I want to be there right now...


----------



## skiflyer

It's an interesting rant but was about as well documented and cited as any of the reviews which completely disagree with you.

 Some of the points are what they are - battery life and such, but "built from poop" and "sounds like crap" just doesn't carry much actual meaning. Still, I appreciate hearing a dissenting opinion in the mix - personally I haven't ventured into portable amps as the portability just isn't sufficient for me.


----------



## fdhfdy

Oh yeah! powerful setup for stand speakers


----------



## Aura

Excellent job Jackson 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 

 I was lucky enough to have considered much of this before I ever really got in to portables, but there definitely was a time when I thought I was going to end up with a rig much like what you have now. Certainly portable application makes a lot of sense to some people, but for me I simply never needed to conserve space or travel. 

 If I would take away anything from this, it is to make decisions for yourself. People have and always will talk up a lot of products, but that never means that it will sound exactly how you imagined or fit your tastes in the slightest.


----------



## the_eleven

While respecting the OP's opinion, I have to disagree, completely and totally.

 After being a "budget" audiophile for 25 years, I am amazed at the quality of sonics I am hearing in a portable rig (5.5G iPod > ALO LOD > SR 71a > TF-10).

 Given the cost of the "high-end" I find the cost to performance ratio of this system stunning. 

 Mostly, I just love being able to listen to such wonderful, involving audio, in my office, or in the living room, or on the plane.

 Truly a golden time to be involved in this hobby


----------



## wolfen68

Well, looking at your first photo of your rig...who's really going to walk around with all that (especially in the summer if you're not wearing a jacket)? I would get frustrated with the hobby as well. 

 I use a H1xx-->MicroDAC-->SR71/SR71a as my main rig so I know all about bulk. The gains in using this combination are great when it comes to sound quality. However...not once...not ever....have I ever really considered walking around with it. It is transportable for hotels and airplanes, but that's it. Anybody being honest with themselves has to eventually come to that conclusion. 

 For the newbies, is the quest for audio nirvana worth it? I say "Yes" if you are looking to use portable equipment as your single main rig (home, bedside, and transportable). When you are truly mobile, you just pick and choose the components you need to keep things practical and your ears happy. If it's just the ipod and IEM's, than so be it.


----------



## tnmike1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wolfen68* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, looking at your first photo of your rig...who's really going to walk around with all that (especially in the summer if you're not wearing a jacket)? I would get frustrated with the hobby as well. 

 I use a H1xx-->MicroDAC-->SR71/SR71a as my main rig so I know all about bulk. The gains in using this combination are great when it comes to sound quality. However...not once...not ever....have I ever really considered walking around with it. It is transportable for hotels and airplanes, but that's it. Anybody being honest with themselves has to eventually come to that conclusion. 

 For the newbies, is the quest for audio nirvana worth it? I say "Yes" if you are looking to use portable equipment as your single main rig (home, bedside, and transportable). When you are truly mobile, you just pick and choose the components you need to keep things practical and your ears happy. If it's just the ipod and IEM's, than so be it._

 

I think you've nailed it here. Personally, I use choice of two amps, Imod and Klipsch image at home. When i go "portable" it's with a Nano and older pair of Ety4p. But I can still carry amp/DAC combination in a Headroom bag if I want to, but am increasingly finding the Ety/Nano combo is just fine for going to the bookstore, library, etc.


----------



## digihead

At the end of the day, if it isn’t making you happy then don’t do it. Head-fi is a hobby that should be enjoyed. I have reached the tipping point many times over the last several years and have gone through periods of accumulating gear and then slimming the herd as well.

 As far as portable being ‘worth it’ that is also highly subjective. For me, it is definitely worth it as portable is how I spend the majority of time listening to music. Also the convenience of an iPod far outweighs the hassle of a pcdp.

 A full on home or office rig for me has proven to not be worth it as I have spent significantly more money in doing so and have found that the cost to benefit ratio has been way out of line simply because I don’t have the time to sit down and listen to a home set up. 

 Get a recent generation iPod, encode in lossless and go from there. Get a pair of Koss KSC 75 for $15 or PX100’s and enjoy it. Really, if you want to know where the biggest, best bang for your buck lies…it is the UE11. Even without an amp it is some of the finest sound I have ever heard. I could happily live with the UE11 and an iPod and no home headphone rig.

 As far as portable amps and LODs go, I view that as a part of the hobby. If it is too big, too much of a hassle or something you don’t want to deal with, then don’t.

 Synergy also comes into play. On a whim, I figured out that the UE5c, a 2g Nano, 4 wire Jumbo Cryo LOD and a Tomahawk are an incredible combination. Honestly, I would take that rig over any of the home rigs I have had, simply due to the sound and portability.

 The Edition 9’s aren’t the best phones for portable listening. They are also a matter of preference and are not my cup of tea (or beer or whatever)

 Portable will never be what a home based rig can be. Look at the size of the components, the power, the size of the headphones, etc. 

 Looking at this whole post, it is more of a ramble than anything else. Personally, I enjoy portable audio and get a lot of pleasure from the hobby. To each his own.


----------



## dadozen

Well, my portable rig is my main rig. I don't intend to take the next step and go into true high end listening, spending thousands of dollars to get the best I can and listen at home. At least in a near future. 

 Also, I want to keep my rig at least transportable, but at the same time trying to get the best SQ out of it. Just bought a ALO SXC cable to try to improve it, and if I could get my hands on a 5.5G iMod from RWA, with that VCAP dock from ALO, I'd certainly want to keep it. It would still be portable? probably not. Would it be transportable? Yes. Would I be getting the best SQ out from my iPod? Probaby so. That's what I want from my rig
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: btw, this is a truly enjoyable discussion. I'm pleased to read each and every post here.


----------



## krmathis

Excellent write-up! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Better leave before its too late...


----------



## tomjtx

digihead, you hit the nail on the head, so to speak.
 The iem is by far the most important item determining SQ.

 An ipod lossless with a great iem will sound better than a mediocre iem with a great amp.

 IMO sources and amps have gotten so good that the difs are more subtle than the difs between phones.

 Same holds for speaker based audio. The speaker makes the most dif.


----------



## isao2k8

Although I agree to some extent with the OP's thought, I love these gears because portable is beautiful


----------



## yukihiro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brandnewgame* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree that sustained periods of treble heavy music is a recipe for tinnitus 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You're correct about the frequency response, but it doesn't say anything about how it could modify the actual sound beyond volume. For instance it could take the rough edge off the highs by reducing the strength of their attack, smoothing their presence, or it could just be an equaliser (anything is debatable).

 Whatever the case, any future headphone purchases should be based on the sound of the 325i+FiiO combination (not 325i alone), since that is your preferred sound signature. Glad you like it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for your responses to my posts. I appreciate it. I do like the sound coming from the 325i+FiiO, but I also miss the clarity of the music. Oh well... I guess it's a trade off unless I go for a higher end amp. I wonder if there's anything that will give me what I want... FiiO+PA2V2 in series? lol


----------



## skamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, with some of those competitors costing more and some costing less. So to say that it's "way overpriced" is incorrect. And listener impressions aside the Pico is a veritable tour-de-force in terms of advanced technology compared with almost all of its piers. It was the first portable to use a truly high-end USB dac implementation rather than the same-old (decent but not great IMO) PCM27XX chip._

 

The iBasso D2 has the same DAC chip, costs two-thirds less than the Pico, and is said here to sound almost as good. Yeah, the iBasso is chinese and the Pico american, so what?


----------



## Pangaea

To the OP: I agree with you completely. The only reason I justify my iqube and ALO LOD is for "transportable." If I am going somewhere that will have a decent listening environment (which is really key) then I will pack it up. For instance a hotel room or a long plane flight (obviously with good closed/iem phones). But other than that its just an iTouch and Yuins, or whatever mid-priced portable I am in to that particular month.

 Trying to justify some great rig for a portable environment is silly, seeing how most of what you gain from the gear is lost on your surroundings- and the hustle and bustle of being on the move. 

 My only point of contention is I do believe there are amps out there that do make a considerable difference- but only in a conducive environment.

 But good post, and you managed to do it without ranting, but rather with some quality insight.


----------



## yashicaman

Keeping it simple for portable audio makes good sense (and if I were as sensible as my wife, I'd run with an Ipod Shuffle and a pair of Yuin PK2's): however, it's too late for me. I'm condemned to lug around a big Decware Zen Head, my Philips ipod clone, a pair of AKG 701 for classical and jazz, a pair of Grado 325i's for rock, metal, punk and blues, an AKG 271s in case I'm in a public area and out of sheer politeness don't want to leak sound, a 15 foot Grado headphone extension cord if I want to put some distance between me and my gear, a pair of AKG 240 headphones because they look really cool and one seens them in studio performance dvd's quite often, a fistfull of 9 volt batteries (just in case) for the Zen Head, a laptop computer just in case I want to download more tunes to my Philips Ipod clone, a six pack of beer in case I get thirsty, a mickey of Scotch in case I run out of beer, a warm sweater in case it gets cold, an umbrella if it rains, and a pack of mints so that I will have minty fresh breath. Oh yah, I need a bag to carry everything in. 

 To hell with portable audio!! I'm just going to stay at home, listen to my speakers, enjoy my SACD's, and relax in my leather recliner. I ain't leaving the house. But if I ever do, I'm going to get a tiny Ipod Shuffle and a pair of Yuin PK1's and a Fii0 tiny headphone amp (I just gotta have my toys).


----------



## morphsci

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... and is said here to sound almost as good. ..._

 

Well besides being useless your impression of the impressions is incorrect. Did you actually read more than one?


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the_eleven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While respecting the OP's opinion, I have to disagree, completely and totally.

 After being a "budget" audiophile for 25 years, I am amazed at the quality of sonics I am hearing in a portable rig (5.5G iPod > ALO LOD > SR 71a > TF-10).

 Given the cost of the "high-end" I find the cost to performance ratio of this system stunning. 

 Mostly, I just love being able to listen to such wonderful, involving audio, in my office, or in the living room, or on the plane.

 Truly a golden time to be involved in this hobby_

 

I'm only going to poke a bit. 

 Your rig sounds good, but I disagree with you if you think that it is a steal. I know true high-end is prohibitively expensive, but many mid-fi desktop rigs are higher quality then that. A basic buffalo DAC, DIY M3 amplifier, and flagship headphone from Senn, AKG, or Grado should be possible at that price and show you some stuff coming from any iPod based rig. 

 Your rig is also more expensive then the 1g shuffle and UE11 which I personally believe will would be on another level in terms of size and sound quality (a better source and IEMs make a greater difference, I promise). I am still much of a budget audiophile. I was also once more of a portaphile too while in college and have the pics to prove it.






 Despite the language used, I think Luminette is overwhelmingly right that you are not likely to find the true bang for your buck in the portable arena's supposed "high-end". Your going to be limited pretty quickly to almost exclusively mid-fi equipment if you stay. 

 Honestly, it seems likely that the DAC inside of the PICO is the only thing I can think of that might even compete with a full size counterpart. The UE11 doesn't seem to really have any competitors unless you want less bass on certain songs using a UE10 flavor.


----------



## wayfarer

Sorry about the philosophic bits. Guys, let's just enjoy the music. I'm guilty to contribute to this seemingly endless thread. Simple message: enjoy music however you like it. Take care.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wayfarer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Pro Insipiens*_

 

I'll leave out the essay generators and fluff. Portable audio has its place. However, you destroy it when you make it into a brick sized package that you spend $1500 dollars on, when a trunk sized package for a $1000 is worth four times more in sound quality. 

 I'm happy to report that the statements you asked about do not change that fact.


----------



## Wmcmanus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your rig is also more expensive then the 1g shuffle and UE11 which I personally believe will would be on another level in terms of size and sound quality (a better source and IEMs make a greater difference, I promise)._

 

You're suggesting that a 1g shuffle is a better source than a 5.5g iMod? It sure seems so. Maybe I've missed something or am not up to speed on portable sources?


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wmcmanus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're suggesting that a 1g shuffle is a better source than a 5.5g iMod? It sure seems so. Maybe I've missed something or am not up to speed on portable sources? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Read his source again. He put iPod. Very different!


----------



## Wmcmanus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Read his source again. He put iPod. Very different! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ok, gotcha. Got confused by the 5.5g iMod in your pic.

 So, would this be an accurate representation of your assessment? 

 5.5g iMod > 1g shuffle > 5.5g iPod


----------



## the_eleven

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm only going to poke a bit....
 ....Your rig is also more expensive then the 1g shuffle and UE11 which I personally believe will would be on another level in terms of size and sound quality (a better source and IEMs make a greater difference, I promise). I am still much of a budget audiophile. I was also once more of a portaphile too while in college and have the pics to prove it...

 Despite the language used, I think Luminette is overwhelmingly right that you are not likely to find the true bang for your buck in the portable arena's supposed "high-end". Your going to be limited pretty quickly to almost exclusively mid-fi equipment if you stay...._

 

Poke away, I enjoy a good discussion!

 Adding up the cost of my system, it looks like a wash with the 1G shuffle and the UE11, except that the iPod holds more music, and one can actually choose what tracks to play...

 You are undoubtedly correct about the UE11, and once the "recession" is over, I plan on grabbing a set of those.

 My point was more in comparing the cost of a speaker based system, and the portable system; for the price you paid for your shuffle/UE11, you will have to work hard to get the same level of sound in a stationary system.


----------



## wayfarer

.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Wmcmanus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, gotcha. Got confused by the 5.5g iMod in your pic.

 So, would this be an accurate representation of your assessment? 

 5.5g iMod > 1g shuffle > 5.5g iPod_

 

Out of the headphone jack, the shuffle beats all I believe. However, the LOD on either iPod is a hard comparison, though I still do not believe the stock capacitors on the iPod LOD produce bass and let detail through as easily as the push pull operation of the first gen shuffle. The iMod should obviously best it though with the proper capacitors in place (blackgates will do fine).

 The iPod headphone jack is very different then the sound going through the line-out, but I definitely believe that the shuffle and UE11 together bring out a better sound then an iPod through LOD, SR71A, and the Triple.fi. I will admit that it seems more then likely that the difference lies more obviously in the choice of IEM playing a large part there.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wayfarer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am happy to report that the statements you made do not change the fact that a Headphoneus Supremus states the fact for me. Fact, no? 

 Look, what you deemed a 'brick sized" package is in reality what I deemed a home system. You see, only my portable (whatever it may be to suit my needs at the time: Cowon i7 or Zune w/amp) can be 'destroyed' anywhere i want. Assuming of course you meant "listen" when you typed the aforementioned word. Oh, thanks again for deeming what I destroy (my own device? the image of the device?--hehehe..silly). Just the type of priggish quality I mentioned from above. Very nice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 mwah_

 

What does headphoneus supremus have to do with anything? I can't roll back my post count or take back any mistakes now can I?

 I wasn't being literal by saying destroyed, I was talking about the ideal, the system being as portable as possible. You lose your focus when you sacrifice 100% or more space for a smaller percentage boost in quality. If it works for you, its great. I'm writing to those focused on getting their money's worth while still accomplishing their portable rig goals (IE. the best sound at the best price within the most reasonable sized package)


----------



## Luminette

Just rolled out of bed

 This post has really taken off. My threads always disappear in two hours. Must be the portable craze.

 There are a ton of specific things I'd like to reply to (some awful comments that address invisible conclusions and don't acknowledge the OP or the rest of the OP, in particular) that I've read between frontpage and where the thread is now, but I'm just going to wing it and hopefully I'll cover what matters.

 There are a lot of head-fiers that already have portable rigs here posting out in defense of the pursuit. A lot of remarks on portable being their only use.. that a home rig would be a waste for them. If it works for you, it works for you. I do think some are already in the hole, though, and would rather defend than come to terms with the ridiculousness. Which is unfortunate, because great sound awaits those curious to see what's past the iPod toy-world in terms of SQ.

 I'm thinking that more than a few of them, too, have really limited (if any) experience in home application.

 I'm not saying that your rigs don't sound better than they did originally, before you stacked on amps and such - it's that the improvements you've witnessed first hand and consider to be great actually still pale to what your money would be doing in a home implementation. 

 Within the comments we have even seen the kind of mentality that home setups have to be more expensive than a portable setup. I said this wasn't true, and others have echoed that reality here - but I imagine more than a few people have posted without even reading the whole OP. And that's to be expected, unfortunately.


 And comments on portable being incomparable to home in many aspects - in relevance to compromises being made - that's all really obvious stuff, guys. 



 Mostly, the responses seem to be made out of people fully-agreeing and people that are agreeing "to a point". Usually, the point to which they agree goes as far as it can before stopping to accomodate the portable rig they already have spent money on. 

 I started out with this because I don't want to have to leave my music behind when I go out. I mention my iMod rig not most for it's impracticality in size but that I have been to the summit of what portable hifi can do and it is really unimpressive. I'm talking about how much money it takes to get how little gain, and that you can only go such a short distance anyhow. And anything lower than that monster rig is going to sound even less impressive.

 I've got some PMs to answer - looks like a few people are interested in getting the scoop. I'll be floating around the thread off and on throughout the day.


----------



## -=Germania=-

Why do I have so much invested in a portable rig? 

 Well, I am constantly on the move with classes, meetings, etc. and it makes sense for me. 
 Then again, mine is meant to be small-ish and I wouldn't really put much more in than what it is already. 

 iPod Touch > Really nice LOD > Pico > FreQShow 

 Small, nice sounding, and reasonable enough for me. 
 Although I would say that the setup gives the same amount of detail as my Stax and Dynamic Rigs, just not the same musical qualities or ambiance. My home equipment sound like near field speakers and my portable rig sounds like headphones. 

 Now, I do not understand these people with multiple UE11/10's + Ed9 and it is all portable equipment that is used at home. :facepalm:

 Different Strokes for different folks.


----------



## manaox2

I still do not think portable hi-fi is "stupid" for all, but I will say that calling it "hi-fi" at all is typically a LARGE stretch. Headphones were originally made to be smaller and more private then speakers and their capability for being portable makes them really the only option along with earphones. They excel in that field. I never wish to stop hearing about great affordable truly portable sources and new headphones/earphones designed for portable use. 

 Though this is an attempt at a wake-up call to those who truly believe they are audiophiles, yet only dabble with portables instead of opening up to greater exploration.

 However much I have been a victim to curiosity (much like Luminette has been), the portables when combined with their price ratios have a dead end when it comes quality. If you can shine your curiosity to finding the best in pure sound quality instead of limiting yourself to finding out just how far can you can climb above competition in a limited field (the portable arena), your curiosity is everything but guaranteed a greater award of astonishment in the end.

 PS. I still am nothing close to an audiophile. Germania, I have admired your bright and very economic decisions in audio. However, knowing of your business endeavor, your opinions are not held in the same light and I do hope that you get your member of trade tag soon.


----------



## thatwunguy

like the op, I have also lost much interest in portable hifi, though luckily, it was before any huge purchase. 

 I had planned to buy some sort of a portable amp and a LOD, but I am completely happy with my ipod touch 2g and sansa clip. Right now, the ue SUper.fi 5 pro are really doing it for me. However, in the future I plan to upgrae to the westome um2.

 My next headphone upgrade, and probably last for quite some time, will be the denon ah-d2000. I'm loving my d1001 and I can justify the jump to the d2000. The d2000 are still easy enough to drive that my computer, ipod, clip, and stereo equipment can power them without the use of any amp beyond a fiio.

 Rather than spend my money on portable equipment, I'm saving for a pro-ject debut III and a mid-grade denon receiver.

 At this point in my life (i'm a sophmore in college), I'm ok with settling for the spot between mid-fi and hi-fi.

 I call my ideal gear bargain-fi in that it is priced moderately yet performs incredibly.


----------



## mirumu

Portable audio has it's place and likely always will, but I do think Luminette is correct. In my experience there's always been a significant gap between lightweight portable systems and the less constrained full size setups (and on to speakers as well obviously). Those limited to a portable experience are often lacking the frame of reference to really make the wider comparisons and this in turn leads to unrealistic expectations from those even less experienced. I'm not trying to beat-up on anyone here, if anything this situation is to be expected in the relatively recent portable climate of today.

 I wouldn't be without my comparatively modest portable setup, and I use it far more than my home system, but I think it's good for us all to have reasonable expectations. I have no doubt if I threw a lot of money around I could make my portable system sound better, but I do know I could get better bang for the buck elsewhere.


----------



## dadozen

I understand Luminette's point, but thing is: do you want a portable system or not?

 I do agree that a home system is way better than a portable system, even the best one, sometimes for the same money. But, do I want to keep it at home? No. I want to hear it on-the-go. I don't spend much time at home to be able to enjoy all that money spent on speakers and digital sources.

 So, I want to improve my portable rig. LODs, amps, headphones. I do know that sources and headphones make the biggest changes in SQ, but I went for the iPod because of its capacity. I wish there was a better DAP with a similar capacity.

 Although, I do agree that some gears may be overpriced. That's why I went for Corda amps. The ones that deliver equivalent sound quality for much less money. Not counting that I'm very far from the original places of manufacturers.

 Nothing against who spend more money on amps than me. It's nothing but a personal choice, and my budget wasn't that high anyways
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 EDIT: I wish I can have both portable rig and home system someday.


----------



## Sherwood

Glad to hear you're farther along the road to audio nirvana, Jackson. 

 I have no desire to assert my opinions and preferences as somehow more advanced or evolved than others, but I too have scaled the portable peaks and come back to base camp wanting. I am, as always, delighted to find that others whose opinions I respect and value are in agreement with me.

 My portable rig is my iphone into either A) k81DJ or B) Er4p. If I want a portable reference, I bring the 1g shuffle instead. Better gear sounded better, but not nearly as good as that same money can sound when burned as the fuel for a home engine.

 Here's hoping you consolidate your gear into some nice home kit for the next CO mini meet.

 Just you wait until you discover speakers...


----------



## jinp6301

ipod + px100 =


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have to disagree with your "It all sounds really lame" and "Portable amps do not sound good." comment. Several portable amps can approach the detail, clarity and tonality of full size amps, but often lack the power to drive more difficult headphones - this is not an issue with the right headphones. Basically, I have heard some pretty stunning sounding portable rigs, and I think that for you to say what you did is an unfair generalization. 

 The sound can be great, but is it worth the cost - that is a better argument.

 Things I agree with: 

 1) Practicality: It is not often practical to carry an iMod/Vcaps/Amp around with high end headphones. I use mine as a "transportable" for listening in places where it is not practical to have my home rig with me, like when spending the weekend at my mother-in-law's house or on a short vacation for a few days. The rest of the time I use a Nano velcro'd to a Predator with Punnisher low profile dock and Livewires (or KSC35 in a headband) - or my iPhone 3G with IEM and no amp. These come close enough to the iMod that I don't miss it for casual listening.

 2) Cost Effectiveness: A home rig for the same price as the high-end portable rig can leave the portable rig behind and unable to catch up, so on a "bang for the buck scale" the home rig wins. The iMod with a big caps dock sounds great, and when feeding a full size desktop amp it can be mistaken for a nice home source. But I paid $1,000 for iPod, RWA mods, Vcaps and IC's and I agree that is way out of line when a CA 840c can be had for $1200. Lately I have been a champion of "don't use a portable rig for your home rig if you don't have to" philosophy. I recently recommended a Grahm Slee NOVO with inexpensive DAC over a Predator for a home rig, getting more bang for the same amount of bucks. But as above, there are definitely times when a portable rig is useful and can sound very close to a home rig if you choose the components wisely. But some people can't afford both.

 3) Industry: DAP need to become higher end with better DAC and amps built into one box. Until I got my iPhone 3G I have not owned an Apple iPod that could do justice to my HD600, and I needed the better sound quality from the line out dock and an amp to enjoy the older iPods as much as I enjoy listening at home. I use iTunes to archive my Music, and I have movies and TV shows that I like to have with me, so my superior sounding but larger iRiver 140 hasn't been an option. I was thrilled to discover how much better the iPhone 3G sounds, and hope this becomes a consistent trend with Apple and other manufacturers.


----------



## wayfarer

.


----------



## Nick H.

Such a sad thread! Guys, don't give up - spend MORE, MUCH MORE, seriously. My rig cost a fortune: RudiStor NKK01se + ACS T2 + iRiver X5 = don't add it up. $2500? I really don't want to know. 

 But it's well worth it because it gives me as much pleasure (and as much detail from the music) as my old home system which had to go when I decided to downshift and give up my stressful job and nice house. I had a Mark Levinson CD player and ATC 100 active speakers - better than a lot of studio gear, even the studio where my engineer friend works, which has the perfectionist Brian May as a client. It cost $30,000 and sounded much better than some systems for $50 - $60,000 that I auditioned. The only thing I ever heard that was any better was a top range Mark Levinson which was out of my price range ($60,000 just for a CD player!)

 Yes, portables can and do put out proper hi-fi but you'll never appreciate just how good unless you try the best. It's really sad to hear people discussing iPods with cheap amps as if they are some sort of ultimate. I did a group audition of some good equipment before I chose mine, and iPods are just average. The stuff I chose, especially the amp and IEMs, is just far, far better than I ever imagined it could be. It's clunky to carry around, especially the 750g amp, but I love the sound so much I never begrudge the weight. If I leave the amp at home I always think "dammit, I'm not hearing all the music. This is a wasted listening experience."


----------



## Sherwood

The OP isn't talking about ipods and cheap amps, he's talking about imods with vcap docks and the whole range of the best amps anyone has to offer, out of some of the best headphones. His rig runs about $2500, too.


----------



## Nick H.

Really? I'm surprised. Can you give me a price breakdown? I'm in London so there will be quite a few price differences.


----------



## synaesthetic

When it comes to miniaturization you lose a lot.

 I, too, went on the portable hi-fi journey, caught up in the hype around these parts. I am winding up returning to a simple setup of the relative cheapophile--Sony A728 and Etymotic ER-6i. The second pair of Super.fi 5 LS that I bought went to a friend, who totally loves them far more than I ever did.

 I don't really know why I went so bonkers on the portable nonsense. I was perfectly content with a first-gen iPod Mini and a pair of ER-6i for four years.

 Oh, that's right. I hadn't yet found this place!

_Damn you head-fi! Damn youuuuu!_

 Edit: I still want AD2000s though. >.> I blame Rednamalas1.


----------



## sbulack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I remember years ago when I had a Sony Sports portable cassette player and the yellow headset that came with it. Damn that was fine and I had some of the most enjoyable music I have ever had accompany me....._

 

I still have mine, and I use it to convert sides of cassette tapes into .wav files, and then cut them apart into songs using a .wav editor. Whenever I listen to one of my favorite old tapes using it, it is always a very enjoyable listening experience. Listening to my tapes through that particular unit, compared to listening to CD's from my Pioneer portable CD player is what originally convinced me back in 2003 that I would really enjoy what a headphone amp would add, seeing that the tape player, being more of a vintage unit, had a better headphone out circuit than the PCDP. Even compared to the standards of audio to which the rigs in my sig have made me accustomed, that SONY Sportsman PCP is STILL a fine listen, although today I use Yuin PK1's or stock SR225's with it in place of the original yellow headset.

 If I were restarting today, and having to scrimp and save again for each piece of gear that I could add, I would very likely restart with one of the vintage SONY Portable CD Players being sold by ALO. As my "Home Rig", I'd use it with a pair of stock SR225's, and as my "Portable Rig", with a pair of Yuin PK1's. For its low price, I'd likely add a FiiO E3 for the Yuins and a PA2V2 for the Grados. I'd use Cardas HPI mini-to-mini IC's from HeadRoom for about $20. Sigh! I'd likely end up again where I am today, but it would take me another five years, likely more, to do it.


----------



## fhuang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick H.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Yes, portables can and do put out proper hi-fi but you'll never appreciate just how good unless you try the best. It's really sad to hear people discussing iPods with cheap amps as if they are some sort of ultimate. I did a group audition of some good equipment before I chose mine, and iPods are just average. The stuff I chose, especially the amp and IEMs, is just far, far better than I ever imagined it could be. It's clunky to carry around, especially the 750g amp, but I love the sound so much I never begrudge the weight. If I leave the amp at home I always think "dammit, I'm not hearing all the music. This is a wasted listening experience."_

 

i thought the poster tried the sr71a. it's not D best portable amp around but certainly ain't cheap, i guess


----------



## wuwhere

Well, I got started from accidentally reading Stereophile and TAS at a bookstore many moons ago. This stuff is easier than aligning a moving coil cartridge on an air bearing tonearm. But the level of enjoyment is the same.


----------



## fhuang

i do think sometimes it's too much effort to just search for the best(right) rig. both home and portable. i suppose Luminette, you meant you want the right rig, right? px100 ain't exactly simple and cheap. to us, or mostly headfier, maybe. to regular people, they use stock bud or whatever comes with the dap. happy for you to finally got your right rig.


----------



## mirumu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick H.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I leave the amp at home I always think "dammit, I'm not hearing all the music. This is a wasted listening experience."_

 

To me that's far more of a sad situation. If you need a $2500 portable rig to enjoy your music then I'm sorry for you and your wallet. My home system kills my portable one, but it doesn't make me enjoy my music any less when on the go.


----------



## Luminette

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mirumu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To me that's far more of a sad situation. If you need a $2500 portable rig to enjoy your music then I'm sorry for you and your wallet. My home system kills my portable one, but it doesn't make me enjoy my music any less when on the go._

 

Bingo


----------



## Maxvla

I completely agree with the OP. I never understood the whole amp/dac/lod craze. I have my DAP and IEMs and thats it. Nice and compact. Not that my setup is geared towards being low-fi, but I just don't care enough about the quality while I'm most likely jogging or doing other things that require my focus while I'm listening.


----------



## Nick H.

Ok, here are UK prices for my amp and IEMs, and the current dollar conversion:

 RudiStor NKK-01se: 990 euros, or $1290
 ACS T2: £499, or $827. (Bear in mind that the British Pound is on the floor right now. It wasn't long ago that £499 was $1000.)

 I'm not really sure why the OP's headphones are relevant to his own thread because you can't (well, I wouldn't) wear them in public. Plus I wanted custom IEMs that seal the ear so that I could listen at a safe volume without being bothered by traffic noise etc, and I didn't want any leakage to disturb other people. 

 But I did borrow some Grado GS-1000 headphones (£900, $1493) because I wanted to see what the RudiStor was capable of and find out how much SQ I would be missing out on by having IEMs instead of headphones. I used to own some much loved RS-1s for use with my Mark Levinson, so of course I assumed the GS-1000s would be much, much better than the T2s. But they weren't - they were substantially worse! 

 Baffled I went to the ACS factory and interviewed the owner/designer (for a newspaper) to find out how his IEMs can possibly be better than the best Grados. And he explained it to me. So now I'm satisfied that my $827 IEMs are much better than any $1500 headphones (even though admittedly I've only tried Grados) and MUCH, MUCH better value. 

 The real winner in my rig is the RudiStor - it's just so absurdly good it shouldn't be legal! OK, at 1.7 pounds it's damn heavy but I listen to it on the train, or running or cycling, so it ticks all my portability boxes. Not many people will pay that much for a portable amp, but they really have missed out. The amp is not in production now because hardly any were sold. There's just no market to speak of. I tested the 18th one made for a newspaper about two years after it had been released. I was the only journalist who ever borrowed one. I doubt that more than 25 were sold in total. So I suppose the newspaper was right not to publish my article because it was "too niche." But dammit, it's like having a recording studio quality system in your pocket! It's life-changing! Everybody should have one! 

 I also tested a bunch of Crystal interconnects and bought a midrange one for 126 euros or $164. I couldn't discern any improvement in the more expensive ones. 

 Bottom line is that having listened to some of the very best HUGE hi-fi equipment which has to be delivered by two guys in a tail-lift truck I'm immensely pleased to have traded down to my portable rig. And I'm dismayed to hear that so many enthusiasts in this forum aren't having it so good.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jinp6301* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 ipod + px100 = 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




_

 

On the mark Jin... another vote for the px100s

 [Sansa Clip + px100s, here]

 USG


----------



## mirumu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick H.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So now I'm satisfied that my $827 IEMs are much better than any $1500 headphones (even though admittedly I've only tried Grados) and MUCH, MUCH better value._

 

You said quite a lot there that I don't think will really stand up to scrutiny, but this is the most glaring in my eyes. Exactly how small a subset of headphones are you comparing here? Are you suggesting that all $1500 headphones sound exactly the same? That they all sound equally good from any amp/source? That spending $1500 actually tells you anything about the sound quality you're going to end up with at all? It's probably a good thing that you already know you've got the best there is as it'll save you some money. Unfortunately I've never developed the skill of being able to evaluate all the systems I haven't yet heard.


----------



## sbulack

Whenever someone posts that they don't hear their money's worth from a rig constructed of generally praised pieces of audio gear, it is a very good case in point of the brute force fact (attested to in MANY threads) that we actually and honestly hear things differently. Fortunately for my wallet, my taste for wines is cheap, er, basic. I honestly and actually enjoy a bottle of $7 - $15 red or white wine of a variety of types FAR more than I enjoy a bottle of $40 - $100 wine of the same types - each picked intelligently using input from experienced, non-ingrown, tasters. My taste in audio gets me back, monetarily, for that. I honestly and actually enjoy listening to the rigs in my sig, portable and stationary, WAY more than to rigs that I used to own, constructed of intelligently selected components which were all less expensive. I enjoyed those previous rigs, a LOT. And I enjoy these rigs a LOT MORE.

 I started out very modestly, and I built up to what I have today over a five year period, one piece of gear, or a few related pieces of gear at a time, with lots of reading, research and risk management strategies used to optimize the value, to me, of each purchase.

 That others have audio tastes which are more comparable to my wine tastes is perfectly expected by me, and those of us who hear things differently don't have any basis on which to disagree with the different things heard by others or any need to reiterate or defend our own different hearing of those same things. For folks who are happier with the sound of more basic audio gear which can be built from less expensive components, it would be good if they realize that not everyone will hear things as they do, and that, for others, it can be a "good buy" or "money well spent" for others to enrich their lives through the purchase and use of audio gear which costs more than that which most enriches their own lives. Similarly, it can be the best use of money for others to NOT spend it on audio gear, but to save it for their futures, to engage in the joy of philanthropy or to buy more music or better wine (watches, pens, cameras, espresso machines, ...).

 I'm going to sound like Dr. Phil here, but "It's OK to hear things the way each of us hears them." Those who hear things as Luminette does would be wise to realize that and to select those audio purchases which will contribute genuine enrichment to their lives, and to avoid those which do not. Those who hear things more as I do would likewise be wise to realize that and to select rather different purchases which will add the most genuine enrichment to their lives. Each person new to audio would be wise to run experiments with the most acceptable non-recoverable costs to determine what their own audio tastes and goals are.

 I do think that each of us needs to realize that we genuinely and honestly hear things differently, and to pursue audio, and to interact with each other, with a realization and expectation of just HOW differently we can hear the same things. We don't have to debunk, explain away, or warn others away from each others' very different experiences.

 There have been LOTS of threads, like this one started by Luminette, in which folks have purchased rigs of gear that others have given high praise and have heard either NO difference from a pair of modest phones straight out of a modest audio source or that they actually prefer the sound from modest equipment to that from the more expensive "higher end" gear. I don't feel ANY need to "debunk" or "explain away" their experiences because they are different from mine. I would hope that other folks happier with more basic audio equipment don't feel any mission to "debunk", "explain away" or warn others away from my experiences because they are different from their own.

 I'm asking that we all realize and expect that we hear things differently, to add to Head-Fi honest posts saying what we hear, and to leave it to folks making pursuit-of-audio decisions to first decide which posters' ears are most like their own - and to lean more on those posters' posts for advice in their own pursuit of audio happiness. Can we avoid calling what others hear and pursue that is different from us things like, "sad", "a waste", "stupid", "<your favorite condescending, reductionist or perjorative word/phrase here>"? At least, can we all give it an honest try? Can we do that in this thread, and carry it to other, and eventually all, threads? I include myself in the list of folks to whom I make this request.

 For the two of you who made it to the end of this epic and pedantic post (optimistic, aren't I?) , I applaud you for your dogged perseverance, and, in thanks, I "now return control of your browser to you until you join me next time for a journey reaching from the inner dimensions to ... 'The Outer Limits' ".


----------



## Luminette

lol. I'll offer some minor scrutiny there on the Nick H stuff.

 Yes, you can wear the Edition 9s anywhere you please. I do, and know others who do. Is this supposed to be based on their being full-sized cans? Silly stuff

 And on the note of your wanting ear sealing IEMs, there's a really good chance that the Ed 9s, and plenty of other closed cans, have better isolation. The Sennheiser HD280 Pros have 40db of isolation which stomps out really everything else - IEMs and other circumaurals. And they're a $80-90 headphone. Both of these phones are also great with not leaking sound.

 As for your thinking that your IEMs are better than the GS-1000s, it's very possible, but I would also assert that it's overall unlikely. I'd think it more reasonable that your IEMs more specifically fit your personal tastes - that they appease what ranks as the most important to you, or simply exemplifies some things that stand out the most to you. And what was your listening experience like with the GS-1000s? How long? was it your own music? how quiet was the environment, were you even sitting down?

 As for your overall pleasure with your portable rig (which sounds like even more a massive monstrosity than what's in the OP) while having listened (how long? was it your own music? how quiet was the environment, were you even sitting down?) to stuff that has to be "delivered by two guys in a truck", I guess I'm glad that you're content with this?

 I don't think you've remotely addressed how much your portable rig pales in the face of a home implementation of the same price point.

 I think all you're really saying is that you're happy?

 PS - why do you have a portable amp that costs you twice as much as your portable headphones? I'm not _really_ asking you this.


----------



## Luminette

and for sbulack's post:

 You seem pretty focused on equalizing/neutralizing things in the name of difference. I've not neglected the idea of personal tastes here - I find it hard to imagine that most can really be unaware of that reality, though too many are. 

 I'm not inclined to go with your conclusions because they seem fully unconcerned

 [size=xx-small]_ ("I don't feel ANY need to "debunk" or "explain away" their experiences because they are different from mine.") _[/size]

 with the possibility that a lot of this stuff really could be and is overpriced poo in a box? Or any of the other points made in the OP and here after. Or, really, that there is any other possibility than that people just hear things differently. 

 This is the kind of problem-diluting stuff that keeps people from really knowing the scoop around here. I'm going to go add this to the list of how this audio-idiocy zeitgeist is sustained

 I think your post is meant to smooth things over and please people but my personal opinion is that you'd be doing them more a favor if you were more interested in being objective and considerate beyond what seems to be your final plateau - that people are different and experience things differently. If that stood for half a second, why are you a head-fier since 2003? Unless you strictly avoid all content here pertaining to impressions.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sbulack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Whenever someone posts that *they don't hear their money's worth* from a rig constructed of generally praised pieces of audio gear....

 There have been LOTS of threads, like this one started by Luminette, in which folks have purchased rigs of gear that others have given high praise and* have heard either NO difference *from a pair of modest phones straight out of a modest audio source or that they actually prefer the sound from modest equipment to that from the more expensive "higher end" gear.... 
_

 


*Ig Nobel Prize for placebo effect:*

 "Duke University behavioral economist Dan Ariely won an Ig Nobel for his study that found *
 more expensive fake medicines work better than cheaper fake medicines.*

 "When you expect something to happen, your brain makes it happen," Ariely said...."

 But don't worry, this doesn't happen in our hobby. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG

 For further reading, google: Richard Clark - Amplifier challenge; David Clark - Amplifier test


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and for sbulack's post:

 You seem pretty focused on equalizing/neutralizing things in the name of difference. I've not neglected the idea of personal tastes here - I find it hard to imagine that most can really be unaware of that reality, though too many are. 

 I'm not inclined to go with your conclusions because they seem fully unconcerned

 [size=xx-small] ("I don't feel ANY need to "debunk" or "explain away" their experiences because they are different from mine.") [/size]

 with the possibility that a lot of this stuff really could be and is overpriced poo in a box? Or any of the other points made in the OP and here after. Or, really, that there is any other possibility than that people just hear things differently. 

*This is the kind of problem-diluting stuff that keeps people from really knowing the scoop around here. I'm going to go add this to the list of how this audio-idiocy zeitgeist is sustained*

 I think your post is meant to smooth things over and please people but my personal opinion is that you'd be doing them more a favor if you were more interested in being objective and considerate beyond what seems to be your final plateau - that people are different and experience things differently. If that stood for half a second, why are you a head-fier since 2003? Unless you strictly avoid all content here pertaining to impressions._

 


 I'm going to agree with you.

 USG


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Been watching this thread closely and I gotta agree with Luminette. When I just started getting into this head-fi business I was already planning to buy an iMod blablablabla lalala yadayada. But after much thought and experience, I thought why bother. The essence of portability is already killed with all these addons and such.

 Amp makers are making so many "portable" amps and yet have forgotten an important factor, thickness. Who cares if it's 2" by 2" in width and length? If it's more than 0.5" thick, it will bring the living hell to your pockets. Portable amps should be pocket friendly and I've only seen 2 companies actually making pocket friendly amps which actually sound good for the cost, iBasso & Minibox. If you want to make anything thicker than that, might as well make a transportable amp.

 And I personally gotta agree with the Luminette on "portable" amp prices. $500 can get you a nice home amp.

 I personally can hear the difference between the iPod's headphone out and an amp connected via an LOD. But that's just me. That said, I can't wait for a 64GB iPod Touch to come out and I can't wait for iBasso's T4 to come out.


----------



## Sherwood

1422 posts, and only one double post. I think I'm winning


----------



## Sherwood

I love how this thread is progressing, though I have a question for you Jackson:

 Do you enjoy wearing the PX100s more than the Ed. 9s? Even straight out of an ipod, I assume the Ed. 9s are sensitive enough to be driven reasonably well (though I've not EVER tested this in any way). Do you like the size and convenience better, or do you have some lingering "I remember when these sounded a little better with the big rig" feeling when you hear the Ed. 9s and not the PX 100s?

 My meager portable rig is a compromise. It's good enough that I can enjoy my music fully, though not nearly as critically as my home rig. Do you find this is the case as well?


----------



## 1UP

I approve the OP's message - never understood the portable amp fetish (impractical, not portable!) - just get some good IEMs and off you go


----------



## younglee200

I don't use my portable amp on every situation, and it's usually in my front part of backpack when I go to school or anything like that, but I use it every time I'm about to listen for any period longer than 30 minutes. I myself find it practical to carry around a portable amp for situations like when I'm studying at the library or Starbucks since 75%+ of my music listening is portable.

 I much prefer the sound of my IEMs with my mini^3 and I personally find my mini^3 very portable, especially since I have a small MP3 player such as the Iriver e10. 

 I do understand the OP's POV, but for me, the extra carry weight on my jacket pocket and the <100 dollars I spent on my amp is definitely worth the sound improvement I've been getting.


----------



## troymadison

Too bad I sold my ESP950, it would have made an excellent portable setup.


----------



## skamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *morphsci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well besides being useless your impression of the impressions is incorrect. Did you actually read more than one?_

 

Why don't you give me some useful input instead of flaming me? Please let me know how the iBasso D2 is an utter piece of crap, and how the Pico is the second coming of portable amps.


----------



## Luminette

The PX 100s are definitely loads lighter and more convenient. The isolation is of course worse but is actually surprisingly good for some foamie supras

 I A/B'd the two from the headphone out and the difference isn't very stark except for in soundstage. It was clear that the Ed 9s were not being driven anywhere remotely close to their capabilities

 I do miss hearing my Ed 9s from a real setup. I'm done w/ith the Ed 9s for anything out of the house, that's for sure.

 PX 100s and 280 pros all day long. The 280s are great for super isolation when/where it's needed and I have always loved them. I'm a bass lover and they certainly aren't bassy phones. But I like them, and they're just fine for a lot of music.


----------



## frozenice

hobby 1 |ˈhäbē|
 noun ( pl. -bies)
 1 an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure : her hobbies are reading and gardening.


----------



## WindowsX

The key for veiled portable-fi is lame ass interconnects and wiring, also crappy ass-saving ipod firmware.

 To poster, I beg you to try this once and reconsider it.

 1. Cut down Nordost Tyr, Valhalla or Odin speaker cable to use as iMod wiring inside iPod 3G (Mine is 22awg Valkyrja which is Tyr for now from speaker cable) and mod my crossroad dock with it too.
 2. Install Rockbox 3.0 to your DIYMod iPod 3G with flac file format for playback (and use EAC to rip your own CDs)
 3. Now you have the world's best portable-fi source. Let's move on to interconnects. Mostly, portable-fi interconnects are all snake-oil, costing a lot more compared to rca cables to get similar sound quality. For me, I made 2x22awg Valkyrja wiring and it sounds out-perform all market ones. You may find decent RCA ones with rca to mini adaptor, though.
 4. For amplifier, I recommend iQube since the rest (excluding Lisa which is transportable, not portable) lacks power to make sound really smooth.
 5. Headphone? Be it HD600, GS1000 or your favs that gives synergy. Mine use custom-made prototype 3-drivers IEM which sounds 3 times better than UE10Pro to me and it's only IEM which I shall consider "highend".

 To summarize, here's my setup:
 Player: Rockboxed 3.0 DIYMod 3G with 22awg Valkyrja wiring
 Mini Cable: 2x22awg Valkryja
 Amp: iQube
 Headphone: Specially made IEM with possible up-to-date best drivers.

 Cost? Don't dare to ask lol.

 P.S. Million thanks to Patrick for his spared cut Valkyrja speaker cables which help me out from snake-oil cable companies.


----------



## Luminette

I thought your post was a joke when I first started reading it

 Then I realized that it was actually serious

 And then I read the rest of it and I moved a little bit back towards the side of thinking it was a joke - but I think I have to face the horrifying reality that you are actually serious

 I can't even begin to address your post until I'm sure that you are *actually *serious 

 Please tell me you aren't?


----------



## Maxvla

Unfortunately I'm quite sure he's serious.


----------



## Luminette

Wow

 This is like a godzilla-league mutation of what happens when you buy into bananas and keep it confined to the portable realm. I didn't know the condition existed to _such_ a severe extent.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

I'm pretty sure nobody really listens to what *WindowsX* says anyway.


----------



## Maxvla

I suggested krmathis get a camping rack thing, strap his redwines and macbook and wear his K1000 out in public.

 I was joking, but I bet some people in this portable craze might really think about it.


----------



## nsx_23

I have a XXS which I use only ever at home with my AKG K601, so now I'm starting to build up a home rig with a SOHA amplifier, and possibly a set of HD650. 

 I agree with the OP that there really isn't that much value in portable gear. I just plan on getting a set of customs or TF10/SE530 with custom tips, than finish the portable gear collection.


----------



## slwiser

I have not read the development of this thread but the initial post has something to be said for it.


----------



## Nick H.

The OP is presumably accurate in saying he doesn't like his rig. I haven't heard it. But I love mine. He hasn't heard that. All the rest is just words.


----------



## Luminette

Nick, you didn't address a single thing I said to you, or the stuff I said to the gentleman right after you (which is now relevant to the demeanor you've just taken - after having embraced declaring things good or bad, you are now embracing subjectivity)


----------



## Nick H.

OK, I will, but I have to work now. It's 11.30 am here.


----------



## manaox2

Hey, I'm not going to lie that his rig sounded pretty decent. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There was a ton of excitement getting it, I know. I also believe I can understand why he is frustrated. That is bound to happen when you hit the top of what was your goal and remain unsatisfied after knowing it still does not compare after so much planning, time, and most of all money. After going through the same thing, I now agree that it was fairly laughable.

 Keep it portable and keep it sane. You should not really need an amp if this rig is truly portable today; with the quality of the headphone out from the most modern players, it does not seem sensible to spend hundreds of dollars on an amp and interconnects. 

 You really can't brag but so much about the sound quality of a large portable rig with its price tag because of how it is easy to obtain better when given the same resources. $2500 is broken down so much easier with just a simple source (6th gen iPod or an iRiver H series) and a good IEM. If you hate IEMs, get a small pair of headphones that fit the application (open and closed) with a good ratio of sensitivity and impedance (so that they do not really require an amp). I think that I can assume now that reasonable rig is pretty much always under $1000 if you do not have a home system to enjoy. That $1500 can build you something truly worth showing off, you really can do that with a home rig. 

 Any portable rig is worthy of being happy for the user that enjoys it. Though, it is very different how this forum has created a sense of an audiophile community when so much of it is focused on something more of an expensive toy then an audio gadget truly dedicated to sound quality and worthy of that price tag.


----------



## Sherwood

Luminette just listed his iMod / Cables / VCap dock on the FS.

 NickH, the source + cables + dock went for just shy of $1200. Add on to that the Edition 9 (at 1500 euros retail or $1800 USD), the APS v.3 recable (at about $300) and the RSA SR-71 ($400) and you have a rig with a retail price of $3700.

 I know Jackson didn't pay that much, since he buys smart and he buys used, but that should put a swift end to this "you just didn't spend enough" argument. One of you show me your $3700 portable rig before you assert that his doesn't measure up.

 So having established that a dollar doesn't actually make a pleasing sound, we can again debate this on musical merits.


----------



## WindowsX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm pretty sure nobody really listens to what *WindowsX* says anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

And I'm really sure nobody really listens to what he does not believe in (like "cable is snake-oil" or "cable is magic" thingy)


----------



## Little Bob

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick H.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The OP is presumably accurate in saying he doesn't like his rig. I haven't heard it. But I love mine. He hasn't heard that. All the rest is just words._

 

Having read all of the comments I have to agree with this.


----------



## jamato8

He'll be back. It will draw him back. He will try to leave only to look, to peak, to sneak a listen. . . he'll be back. . . . you'll see. . . . he'll be back. . . .


----------



## Nocturnal310

One life..gotta figure on what to spend.

 since i am bored of all consumer stuff... hifi stuff is the only thing left.

 and better to have a portable amp than not have it.. ipods headphone out doesnt work anymore for me.


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nocturnal310* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_since i am bored of all consumer stuff... hifi stuff is the only thing left._

 

[size=xx-small]Contrast that statement with this one:[/size] Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nocturnal310* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[size=xx-small]*Headphones:
 Sennheiser HD555 
Sennheiser HD205  | MX400| MX360 | Sony MDR-G58V | Sony HPM-70 (Recabled for 3.5mm).

Audio Players: 
Pioneer HTZ 262 5.1 Home theatre | iPod 5.5 Gen (30 GB) | Sony D - NF400 (DiscMan).

Source: HP Compaq Presario F577 AU: iBasso D2 Boa DAC + Amp


 Amps: iBasso D2 Boa Silver*[/size]_




There's only one piece of gear on that list that I could not walk into a store and buy this afternoon, if I'm reading it right. Not to be a snob, but if you like your rig you're not yet bored of consumer stuff.


----------



## Aura

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He'll be back. It will draw him back. He will try to leave only to look, to peak, to sneak a listen. . . he'll be back. . . . you'll see. . . . he'll be back. . . .
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm quite sure he won't.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm quite sure he won't._

 

That's ok, someone will. lol


----------



## Nick H.

Am I the 'He who won't be back?' I'd love to be back but I've been working like a dog today and now it's 20 after midnight and time to sleep. Maybe catch you all tomorrow. I'm enjoying this thread - it really makes you think.


----------



## -=Germania=-

There could be valid reasons for the difference in sound being more than mental, but physical. 

 Myself included. 

 My ear canals are more curved than most of the population which according to a few ENH docs I have spoken to could be one of the reasons why we hear differently. Canal length, depth, curvature, and even properties of the middle ear effect things. 

 For the money, go with a Home Rig if you have no need of a portable one. Money is going to get you more there.
 Portable audio makes sense for some because of the more mobile lives that we live nowadays. You just need to ask yourself what is going to give you more pleasure run the long run. 
 Portable audio, even the high end of portable, is just not going to beat a high end home system or likely even get close. A home amp is going to have a lot more current to work with and be able to use really high quality parts which tend to be larger (Have you seen some of those 100uf Film Caps? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Plus, you would be working with higher voltages in home amps that give you more swing or higher current for the same purpose. 

 I like my iPod touch and the line out in the device is one of the better ones to come from Apple (I have owned 6 different iPods, so I think that right to say is earned). The headphone out is another matter IMO. Plus, I also don't think that making a 6 inch high stack of components is portable hi-fi either. Pssh... I have a SR-Lambda with a SR-7/SB and a T-Amp that can run on battery power. I could throw it in a bag, but IMO it is FAR from being portable audio. Many good home amps run on battery power because it is cleaner. Next thing you know, Krmathis' is going to be called a portable-fi setup. The only travel that my Stax will go on are when I will be on a cruise this Christmas and some longer road trips. 

 For reference, I am waiting for an MOT tag - take everything with a grain of salt.


----------



## hockeyb213

yeah I find my iphone to sound better then my ipod video def. out of a headphone jack but the dock sound should not really be different and I have had 7 mobile music players from apple to this day


----------



## thedauntlessone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick H.* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Am I the 'He who won't be back?' I'd love to be back but I've been working like a dog today and now it's 20 after midnight and time to sleep. Maybe catch you all tomorrow. I'm enjoying this thread - it really makes you think. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

No, jamato is refering to Lum.

 However, we'd love to hear your setup. The setup Lum has is at the very top already and I doubt you have something *significantly* better. 

 It's almost worth to mention that you made the effort to type out a one liner but would not post your portable rig even though the effort would be the same.


----------



## qusp

I think luminette had a couple of good points; that some big name cables companies are overpriced snake oil (but then again it is as apparent or even moreso in home hi-fi high-end) and some of the solutions aren't really what I would call truly portable; but the thing is, if you actually believe people/companies when they tell you that a portable rig can sound as good as a similarly priced home rig then you are either deluded or gullible; but it certainly can produce audio that is really satisfying and great for out on the road, studying etc. its obvious to me that with the size and power constraints placed on portable rigs that they are never going to perform like a home rig; with the process of miniaturization always comes added cost (just how much added cost is questionable but if you insist on the best solution available SQ wise then for me at least its worth the money I spent on it; it brings solice and relief from my sometimes annoying surroundings; just look at the price of top notch laptops versus desktop computers; they're at least double to three times the price.

 It all depends on what you want out of it. I personally find that I get more enjoyment from using an amp; with my iphone 3G or rockboxed DIYMOD 5.5g (wired with cardas silver tonearm wire) and my SE530 actually sound really good unamped; but not as good as when I use the pico; the soundstage is increased significantly along with the texture and tightness of the bass.. Its worth the money and hassle for me; I have just bought a pelican case to contain it all (my growing tower of power) as well as a new VCAP tftf and voip type dock that i'm working on so with a strap rigged up on it it becomes portable again; I also have a decent home rig and that craps on my portable but I cant take it with me can I? I spend a lot of time traveling or out and about where I don't have access to my home rig and with the pico in the mix (along with a low profile jena/cryo silver lod or crystal cables DIYMOD LODof my own making) it only increases my enjoyment. plus I like gadgets and it satisfies that too. would I use my IEM's ampless if it sounded as good? most certainly and if i'm doing something really active I still do. I think if you set your sights/expectations too high you are bound to be disappointed. as long as I keep reasonable goals for my portable experience then i'm happy 100% of the time. I think with the bitterness aparent in your post luminette their must be something more to it; let people find out for themselves; I for one dont need saving


----------



## krmathis

Guess we see you on "fullsize-fi" instead then?


----------



## manaox2

I think head-fi had a "database error" and lost a ton of posts. For those that missed the picture illustrating the stark difference in reactions:






 That is an iMod, vCap, and LISA III there. 

 Maybe the girl should not have dated an engineer.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Everything after 12mn seems lost. Fortunately I finished reading all but 4 of 30 updated threads before the crash.


----------



## jamato8

Hey! My ramblings are gone! Oh well. 

 I have carried around a portable Sony CD player with optical out to my Monica II dac with 6 AA to an amp and hiked, biked and walked with no problem in a small neat case that also holds 12 CD's. It sounds excellent and never bothered me even in China for a year and a half. Up mountains and down and through valleys I went. Oh, the PortaPros are what I preferred for phones on the go.


----------



## apple

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's get to the summit of my portable (if it can even be called that anymore) hifi experience -

 An iMod with an External v-cap dock (sounds better than the ALO portable v-cap) powered by either iQube or SR-71A, with a pair of APS V3 recabled Ultrasone Edition 9s (or HD600s for testing). The LOD(Line-out Dock) and mini-to-mini are a 22g jena / silver configuration.





 (The Monster)





 (Forgive my ugly mug - my displeasure with the rig results has distorted it horribly)

 I have listened to several portable amps aside from these, as well, and normal iPod sound vs iMod and such, just about every variation you can concoct. 


*It all sounds really lame.*

 Let me move into the conclusions I've made in understanding the virility of the current portable hifi craze
*
 How it is sustained:*

 Firstly, you have a lot of new people coming into hifi audio at all. They don't know anything. It's evident that there is a whole community out there revolving around this stuff and there must be something to it - and they are music lovers, curious about better sound (as the pursuit of a nice headphone likely drove them here to begin with). Chances are, it's someone younger than not, and someone with an iPod or Zune (or some pdap)

 So the portable hifi possibility immediately appeals. It's way more convenient.. the size.. and the entry-level pricing is cheap! Plenty of popular sub $100 portable headphone amps. And LODs or Mini-to-Minis can be had for nearly scratch. 

 I think it's common that people see threads *like the "post your portable rig" and the idea of a portable rig seems less crazy. 

 Add in the reviews and raves from people that are often ignorant (lack of experience with much else gear, especially home gear) and/or are some of the token mega-reviewers here with a gigantic post count and tons of articulated impressions that leave a newb feeling like the person knows what they are talking about. A lot of these reviewers I think have a gap-filling addiction with some of this stuff and quite enjoy their position as reknowned reviewer of this or that. They're often off in their impressions, just outright crazy. And almost always fail to explain just how tiny any of the differences or aspects of portable components are (though this trend is not limited to portable hifi)

 However, with portable hi-fi, you have a much fresher set of people with interest and I think they are more susceptable to all of these things.

 I don't think it should be excluded that people also like to fit in. Just find the number of "______ owners unite!" kinds of threads or witness the ongoing interactions between people in long-running review threads for individual products. 

 We all, well, some people, tell us that everyone hears differently etc. It gets taken to such a baby-coddling degree that really anytime a person is displeased people on both sides are ready to write it off as not being their personal taste. It's like people aren't even thinking to question the integrity of the component, or any other possibilities outside of the idea of it just not being their taste. This kind of neutralizing should technically rule out every single impression we have here, then, as they are all personal experiences from people with varying personal tastes. Now how silly would that be?

 Last thing to mention for this segment is that there is a very widespread distrust or outright phobia of anything "DIY". This is mostly fueled by not understanding what's in play - how it all works and is assembled. The reality is, most of the vendors we have here are just 1-2 man outfits who are DIYing but with a website and a proclaimed business entity. If it's not being streamlined like an iPod, it's DIY. Get over it. DIY is value. Your ears and your wallet will love you simultaneously for the first time since you got into this

 ---

 Now, let's factor in some things pertaining to the products themselves


 Pretty much every portable amp out there is a really really basic design. If the community here had any idea what the mark-up ratio was I think we'd start seeing better bang for our buck as the next manufacturers start becoming people competing with each other (or just knowing they can't get away with bs anymore) as opposed to being the next in line to offer a box full of 10% of what you're spending on it. 

 The portable amp boom from so many people - and so many units, let's you know just how lucrative an arena it is. And the ever-expanding portable amp price tags. Not that simply monitoring the level of activity and headcount in the portable forums won't do the job.


 Oh, and the boom of LODs and their makers as well. You can see just how simple and cheap it is by the number of consistently-in-business DIYers we have here offering these things, often using the same materials 


 What's impractical about all of this is, well, where do I start:


*The size? * They are actually smaller than you would think from photos - often times. And yet, you suddenly realize how impractical the idea of taking this thing with you everywhere in addition to your PDAP is.

*The weight?* Often more than your PDAP itself - especially once you jam two 9volts or four AAAs in there. Oh, and they're too weighty for shirt pockets really - better not bend forward more than 45 degrees.

*The shape?* Hard corners and edges made out of metal. Be nice to your thighs.

*Batteries? * Having to buy some rechargables and a charger can get real pricy, real fast. At least half of the popular portable amps need AAs / AAAs or 9Vs. Let's mention how quickly these discharge and that they only last for so many cycles. And if you want the low discharge ones, you're paying even more. Hopefully I don't need to point out the impracticality of running through non-rechargables constantly.

*The sound itself? * Portable amps do not sound good. The closest thing to a portable amp that really begins getting the job done is the Lisa III. And the Lisa III weighs a lot, is huge, and takes one hour to charge for one hour to play. And it's also among the very top of the price range (though it dramatically slaughters all the portable amps in the price range around it) These amps are really basic designs that deliver really basic sound.

*The price?* You're mostly paying for a chassis and their profit. The components themselves are cheap. The R&D is often inexistent. The designing is far from complex. And with LODs, oh boy, the pricing on some of these for the near irrelevance of their role to the sound is staggering. Copper and silver are cheap. Real cheap. Especially 5-6 inches of it.
*
 The price in relation to the sound? *A portable amp is an amp that runs on batteries. But portable amps sound like poop. The size is relevant, and yet, most of them aren't even coming close to having their design maximized, or the space fully used. The level at which these are stomped by good home amp choices in the same price range is horrifying. 

*The fragility / wear & tear liability? * Expensive stuff to be lugging around, in a pocket or elsewise. More than a few are accidentally pulled off of a surface top or dropped. Sometimes they break from this, too. Components like the jacks come loose. LODs are just begging to be destroyed in any kind of pocket or backpack environment. Especially if you have silver content - which plenty LODs do. They are also often very rigid - in the case of the 18g Jena cabling it's become frequent that the constant stress of the LOD reverting to a tension-free shape will break the jacks on these things.
*
 The financial liability? * Oops, you just lost your $500 portable rig. Oops, someone stole your $500 portable rig. Oops, your $500 portable rig just broke because it's made out of poop.

*Is hifi sound even practical for a portable application? *I'd actually readily say that it definitely can be. I myself love to go to a park and lay in the grass and really listen.. or zone out while on a car or train ride (headphone isolation can make things like trains relevantly practical for this kind of litsening). It is still worth mentioning, though, that probably most portable applications are not fit for hifi listening! Things like black background and microdetails (and the general idea of truly being immersed in the music to an extent that hearing it this well doesn't happen) are decimated by outside noise. Chances are you'd see a bigger boost in performance by getting better isolating headphones / IEMs. Are you actually going to be in a focused enough state while in portable application to where you won't be interrupted or taking your headphones off every 5-10 minutes, thus keeping immersion pretty absent?


 A few other notes on some of the misleading or misunderstood things relevant to all of this fiasco. Spending $100, let alone $200 on an LOD is sillier than silly. 

 The iPod is really not a revealing enough of a source to be fretting over your interconnects. Nor is the rest of most any iPod rig going to be revealing enough for that.

 And the difference would be so incredibly minimal, at best. To a point where you're MUCH better off spending that overpriced LOD money on a basic LOD and sinking the rest into a better pair of headphones - way more performance gain to be had in going that route.

 The idea of spending that much money on nearly irrelevant parts of portable rig instead of upgrading the other components is nuts. Hell, you'd be better off spending that kind of money on a headphone recable - and that would still be pretty silly to do for a portable application. The difference is just so negligible to begin with, on the best of home setups - let alone on a comparatively incompetent portable setup. Also, if you think "cryo" means anything at all, or costs anything at all, you need to fix this.

 Another point to mention - specifically with IEM recables ( and things like the koss ksc75) is that they often add significantly more weight to the cable, which can be a nuisance if not something to constantly loosen your fit.

 The whole concept is also silly if you're neglecting the entirely free and quite substantial upgrade of using files with the absolute least or absolutely no compression (I'm a lossless guy myself - but PDAP space is very limited). Getting your ears cleaned is probably a significantly better value than most components in a portable setup, too. 

 Audio hifi is especially bad with the reality of diminishing returns. Portable hifi is the absolute worst with it. 


 My advice? act sensibly in accordance with the points I've made 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hardly am telling people to stop pursuing portable hifi. Chances are, though, you're better off with a pair of easily driven headphones ( if you're an IEM user, just get some UE11s and drop the amp and LOD) that cost your normal headphone price plus the added funds of skipping or selling the amp and LOD (or mini-to-mini). 

 I support the pursuit of the portable hifi, always will, but it needs to make the leap to where there is actually an audiophile dap with an audiophile amp all in a single unit. iBasso has a project of this going on right now but I'm not holding my breath - I imagine they will still compromise battery life / storage space - and it's far off, for those ready to take immediate interest, cool your horses 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But it's progress, and tip of the hat to them for it.

 Me? I'm reverting to a normal iPod with a pair of sennheiser PX 100s and/or a pair of sennheiser HD280 pros. I've been so content with the px 100s out of my ipod headphone out lately. I may go for a pair of Livewires or even UE11s someday. I'll save the real listening for a nice home rig. I'm going to be able to afford a rig that just indescribably destroys what my full-on iMod rig can do at current, for the same or less than what I've spent on it. I'll fund it all with the sale of this.

 A lot of people are happy with the sound of their portable rig - I'm saying you could be a lot happier, and for even less price if you play the cards right.

 I need to make a mention for PCDPs. There it is. Too many PCDPs, mostly older ones, outright destroy the audio quality of our PDAPs - whether by their headphone out or their line-out.





 (PX 100s - these things just sound way too good for $30)

 I would hope that more newcomers consider skipping the portable hifi sinkhole and getting to experience what headphone hifi is really about. Go to meets and experience gear, it's priceless and money-saving. And be careful about the hype on head-fi. We see several popular items of the month here and they're almost always a huge let-down, with what I've experienced so far.

 I'm hardly a spoiled audiophile - I've not got any grand rigs or anything. What I've got is in the photos up there. I fund my audio quest with a measley $8.60 an hour - and I think a lot of other portable hifi consumers are also going with this option in the idea that it's the more affordable route to put your foot in the door with hearing some good sound. It's just not true. And even if you're a billionaire, why waste a cent of it?


 If anyone has any questions, I'm here to help - feel free to PM me or get ahold of me via any of the messengers listed under my name at the top of the post

 Thanks for reading 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [size=xx-small]Quick infos:

 PDAP = Portable Digital Audio Player
 PCDP = Portable CD Player
 LOD = Line-out Dock

 Also, this thread has evolved a good amount now - please read through it before diving in![/size]_

 

Long live the PX100! That's my ideal portable headphone. Why spend more, to use on the move? I can't figure out.

 Also I second your comment on PCDPs vs. DAPs, the former can sound better and they don't require a computer nearby...


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey! My ramblings are gone! Oh well. 

 I have carried around a portable Sony CD player with optical out to my Monica II dac with 6 AA to an amp and hiked, biked and walked with no problem in a small neat case that also holds 12 CD's. It sounds excellent and never bothered me even in China for a year and a half. Up mountains and down and through valleys I went. Oh, the PortaPros are what I preferred for phones on the go._

 

I think your rig is fine by the way, its in the right price range for the good sound you get, the application seems to fit it, and you don't seem to mind its extra bulk. I myself don't want to carry a backpack around most of the time.

 I remember carrying a portable CD player around in my teenage years and it holds a ton of nostalgia for me. It also did not cost $2500 and I could carry it easily in one hand.


----------



## energie

why dont you stop quoting? thanks


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *energie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why dont you stop quoting? thanks_

 

I'm not sure who your talking to without a quote there.


----------



## jamato8

Most likely Apple since it is a huge quote that may not have been needed in total. 

 I just carry a iriver H140 now with a portable amp and my PortaPros. Great sound and no more over the should small bundle but Monica does go where ever I go as I travel but no longer on hikes and walk arounds.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think head-fi had a "database error" and lost a ton of posts. For those that missed the picture illustrating the stark difference in reactions:

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6...dphoneswd8.jpg

 That is an iMod, vCap, and LISA III there. 

 Maybe the girl should not have dated an engineer._

 

She certainly don't look to happy with the situation. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *energie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_why dont you stop quoting? thanks_

 

Well, its quite simple. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 * No quote = answer to the first post in the thread.
 * Quote = answer to the post quoted.


----------



## energie

that apple guy, lol i just noticed he got banned 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 i didnt want to quote him since he quoted the starting post.


----------



## Golden Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure who your talking to without a quote there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL.


 Anyway, to the OP - I really enjoyed post #1...that was an awesome read.


----------



## HiWire

I agree with the OP.


----------



## Anouk

Hey everyone, I have been reading this thread with interest. I agree that the gear you get for the price you pay for it is not worth it in portable head-fi. That does not mean that I am not satisfied with my portable rigw hich i have now, it just means I indeed think i paid too much for it. I also think there should be more innovation in the portable amp market/that more diyers should enter the scene. I think they really can (and already do infact in some cases) make a difference. 
 I am now using the 5.5g imod +alo lod cable+alo recabled edition 9 with their new gxc cable. And yes you can totally use the ed9s in public, no need for bohtersome and unnatural sounding (to me at least) iems. (iems isolate better though). I am considering getting a portable vcap dock and different interconnects for my imod and see how that goes. I think everyone should go through their own journey and I think indeed everyone hears differently. I also think though that oftentimes on headfi difference in sound are made bigger then what they are in actuallity and it all of course depends on where you are coming from and what equipment you have used in the past. 
 What I am m ore disenchanted with however at this momen tis my home rig. I have a headroom maxed desktop amp+dac which i use with my computer an kimber usb cable. But it does not sound THAT much better then my imod rig +sr71a and the seem ehadphones. Sure the fullsize rig sound s bit better, more soundstage (wide and deep) a bit bette rbass and clarity but it is certainly not night and day. And htis is quite disturbing to me since I paid 1800 euro for that amp+dac+power supply alone...
 It might be the ed9s because I have heard they do not react that much to different sources/dont scale that well but it still worries me...
 It could of course be my ears...
 please continue the great posts
 Greetings, Anouk,


----------



## Samjones

nicely written, I enjoyed that..
 But, I have a worry; I'm waiting on my tomahawk and really can't hold on much longer! I am gonna be in your position and resent it?
 :O scared now


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Anouk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also think there should be more innovation in the portable amp market/that more diyers should enter the scene. I think they really can (and already do infact in some cases) make a difference. 

 ...cut...

 It might be the ed9s because I have heard they do not react that much to different sources/dont scale that well but it still worries me...
 It could of course be my ears...
 please continue the great posts
 Greetings, Anouk,_

 

What more do you want from the DIY community? They give out freely how to make cables, the cmoy, the mini-3, the LISA III (surprised? Its been that way, though very few went that route), and much more. If you explore those, I think you very well may find that those amps are the top in their price range in sound quality. I have heard from others nothing but great things about all of those amps.

 As for what you heard about the Ed. 9, I can only say that I have also heard some of that same thing. Many people love them to death, its mostly been stories of love/hate relationships from owners. Trust your own ears.


----------



## Little Bob

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samjones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nicely written, I enjoyed that..
 But, I have a worry; I'm waiting on my tomahawk and really can't hold on much longer! I am gonna be in your position and resent it?
 :O scared now_

 

Well I took delivery of my first headphone amp a couple of weeks ago, and I know that having listened to my music through the SR-71A there is no way I am going back. I am quite happy to take the SR-71A with me wherever I go - I consider it to be portable.

 Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it gets more than a little annoying when I am being told that I am foolish for buying what I believe suits my lifestyle perfectly.

 Don't be scared, I have no doubts that you will love the Tomahawk, it's a great amp.

 Besides, Ray offers a 30 day money back guarantee so this takes any worry out of the purchase.


----------



## Samjones

Well I'm using then with SE530s and I've heard gleaming tings 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But yeah, i really really hope it makes a big difference, To be honest the state I'm in any difference is great.. God I'm ill (quality that is)

 And jeez, the amount of people who already call me stupid ("friends")


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samjones* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And jeez, the amount of people who already call me stupid ("friends") _

 

Is that a condom wearing a headphone in your avatar?


----------



## the_eleven

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Anouk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.....What I am m ore disenchanted with however at this momen tis my home rig. I have a headroom maxed desktop amp+dac which i use with my computer an kimber usb cable. But it does not sound THAT much better then my imod rig +sr71a and the seem ehadphones. Sure the fullsize rig sound s bit better, more soundstage (wide and deep) a bit bette rbass and clarity but it is certainly not night and day. And htis is quite disturbing to me since I paid 1800 euro for that amp+dac+power supply alone..._

 

And there you go. 

 This is why a good portable amp provides great value. It can take you close to home rig performance, and you can take it with you. 

 The incredible interest in portable amps is no fluke.


----------



## qusp

its a conspiracy; all but my first post disappeared
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I cant be bothered stating it all again; I like my amp+cables. if you don't then dont use them. I did enjoy our little exchange last night though manox


----------



## frozenice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_its a conspiracy; all but my first post disappeared
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I cant be bothered stating it all again; I like my amp+cables if you don't then dont use them. I did enjoy our little exchange last night though manox_

 

It wasn't a conspiracy, it was server issue. Jude explains it in a sticky at the top of each section of the forums.

 It starts with this:


 A Message From Jude About This Last Outage
 Dear Friends,

 You may have noticed that some of your posts are missing, so, for that, I apologize. We had to restore from our last backup--a backup made about 10 or 11 hours ago, so I estimate a loss of approximately 600 to 700 posts, as most of that time was off-peak. Nevertheless, that's a substantial loss, and, again, I'm very sorry.


----------



## Luckyleo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *energie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that apple guy, lol i just noticed he got banned 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 i didnt want to quote him since he quoted the starting post._

 

Was Apple banned just because he quoted an extra long (but obviously very well written and topical) post, or are there other things going on?


----------



## jamato8

Other things. I like him but he pissed off the wrong people.


----------



## Luminette

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *the_eleven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And there you go. 

 This is why a good portable amp provides great value. It can take you close to home rig performance, and you can take it with you. 

 The incredible interest in portable amps is no fluke._

 

I vehemently disagree with "it can take you close to home rig performance" and feel that you've not heard really nice home setups? (*Not* necessarily expensive)

 As for calling the boom of portable fi no fluke, well, I explained a lot of it, pretty extensively. Do you have that all addressed at least in your head before you settle on declaring that it's all sensible stuff with foundation?

 What I wouldn't give for people that address everything they're responding to, and not just a sliver of what they're responding to. It's just so dysfunctional.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *frozenice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It wasn't a conspiracy, it was server issue. Jude explains it in a sticky at the top of each section of the forums.

 It starts with this:


 A Message From Jude About This Last Outage
 Dear Friends,

 You may have noticed that some of your posts are missing, so, for that, I apologize. We had to restore from our last backup--a backup made about 10 or 11 hours ago, so I estimate a loss of approximately 600 to 700 posts, as most of that time was off-peak. Nevertheless, that's a substantial loss, and, again, I'm very sorry._

 

can you spell facetious?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 of course it wasn't a conspiracy did you really think I was serious

 luminette I really don't know what your trying to achieve with this thread; its a circular argument and based on matters of opinion. What's worth the money to me, may not be worth it to you. Your stance of telling other people that they shouldn't be enjoying their setups, because in your opinion they're a rip off is confusing to me.. Portable systems were never designed to compete with home systems; they're in a different league altogether. they are there to fill a gap, so that people that love great sound are able to get as close as possible to what they may have at home while out on the road or if they dont have the money/space to have a home system. Now if you are arguing that they (amps, LOD's etc.) dont make a difference at all, then you must have malformed ears. Some people are willing to pay for the extra 10% and I actually find it to be quite portable still. Remember boomboxes were portable stereo's once, are you going to complain about the size when you think about that. All technology/objects in the top tier ARE expensive thats just the way it is, whether its computers, beef, jeans. poodles etc etc. now I do disagree with some of the tripe night and day differences that are posted on here sometimes; but the thing is it's all subjective. There is just as much crapola in the home hi-fi market; in fact maybe more; it certainly costs a LOT more for high end. and the length of cables that you need for hi-fi means that they cost heaps more for high end. i'm not going to argue about it any more since most of my argument was lost last night; but please leave it up to us to decide whats best for us. It may not be for you (I dont know what you were expecting) but that doesn't mean that everyone shouldn't have they're own journey. Its posible that at the end of this I will end up in the same position as you, but its very unlikely because I have reasonable expectations of what an amp the smaller than the size of a pack of cards can do; which apparently you dont.

 chill out will ya; just enjoy the music


----------



## chinesekiwi

I hate to say it but Luminette has got several good points that are quite valid not only in portable hi-fi but with hi-fi in general.

 However what one must remember is that in terms of all hi-fi, headphones are the best value. The miniaturisation of parts found in portable takes R & D (which costs $$) and to actually build them requires greater work resulting in lower economies of scale. Same really goes for speakers with the enlargement of parts. Headphones fits firmly in the middle. Headphones are really just the most economical to make.

 I agree with that fact that well, portable setups can't even get close to decent home setups really. That said though, the space taken by home setups = bigger more complex circuits which not surprisingly results in higher SQ. One's got to take into account portability and space when making circuits for portable amps. That sacrifices more complex circuits (unless you want your costs to skyrocket) which sacrifices SQ.


----------



## jamato8

I came across wild kiwi in China. I found out they are actually native there and not other countries as many believe. There are many varieties.

 On a portable not getting close to a good home amp, I do not agree. If you are feeding a very good portable from a good source the sound can be excellent. I use my Woo 6 quite often here at home and my modded 6 has been compared to some very fine home amps and come out very well. In comparing the 71A (broken in) I find the 71A is not banished and scorned. It holds up surprisingly well when using the same source.


----------



## chinesekiwi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I came across wild kiwi in China. I found out they are actually native there and not other countries as many believe. There are many varieties._

 

Yes. They used to be called Chinese gooseberries


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I came across wild kiwi in China. I found out they are actually native there and not other countries as many believe. There are many varieties.

 On a portable not getting close to a good home amp, I do not agree. If you are feeding a very good portable from a good source the sound can be excellent. I use my Woo 6 quite often here at home and my modded 6 has been compared to some very fine home amps and come out very well. In comparing the 71A (broken in) I find the 71A is not banished and scorned. It holds up surprisingly well when using the same source._

 

yes if someone would come up with a DAP that had USB out and we could use it with our USB dac I think the difference between portable and home hifi would shrink remarkably


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chinesekiwi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However what one must remember is that in terms of all hi-fi, headphones are the best value._

 

This is oft-repeated but not necessarily true. It really depends on what you value.

 If you like detail and accuracy, they are indeed a great value. If you like impactful bass response and a realistic soundstage, you're going to be spending drastically more on headphones than you would on equivalent speakers.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes if someone would come up with a DAP that had USB out and we could use it with our USB dac I think the difference between portable and home hifi would shrink remarkably_

 

Yes, I just don't know if anyone is motivated by the niche market to to use the USB for portable. When I use my Monica II dac with the H140 optical out I have a portable hard drive with optical out. It can't get much better than that. No it won't fit in your pocket, well not a normal pocket but it is very portable and what sound!


----------



## Luminette

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On a portable not getting close to a good home amp, I do not agree. If you are feeding a very good portable from a good source the sound can be excellent. I use my Woo 6 quite often here at home and my modded 6 has been compared to some very fine home amps and come out very well. In comparing the 71A (broken in) I find the 71A is not banished and scorned. It holds up surprisingly well when using the same source._

 

I don't know how to respond to this anymore without getting banned. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I came across wild kiwi in China. I found out they are actually native there and not other countries as many believe. There are many varieties._

 

let alone this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also, in response to this note:

 "I agree with that fact that well, portable setups can't even get close to decent home setups really. That said though, the space taken by home setups = bigger more complex circuits which not surprisingly results in higher SQ. One's got to take into account portability and space when making circuits for portable amps. That sacrifices more complex circuits (unless you want your costs to skyrocket) which sacrifices SQ. "

 Portable amp space and design is not being maximized, at all. Really, not a lot of thought is going into portable amps. Rooting yourself in the notion of smaller size as the only possible explanation for the shortcomings of these portable components is not advisable

 And I still see a lot of people equating sound that stomps portable as having to be top of the line (you must be unfamiliar with any part of the line when it comes to a home setup) and/or expensive. You're wasting a chance to discover better sound by clinging to a limited portable experience. I'm sure it sounds good to you - just like Bose would sound good to your random non-audiophile person off of the sidewalk


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Portable amp space and design is not being maximized, at all. Really, not a lot of thought is going into portable amps. Rooting yourself in the notion of smaller size as the only possible explanation for the shortcomings of these portable components is not advisable_

 

oh and I suppose you could do a better job of it? do you think amp makers are all conspiring to make these amps larger or of lesser quality than they need to be?


----------



## the_eleven

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I wouldn't give for people that address everything they're responding to, and not just a sliver of what they're responding to. It's just so dysfunctional._

 

Dysfunctional is spending so much money on a portable rig, and then after becoming dissatisfied with what you have, trying to convince others that portable amps are a waste of money.

 Sleep well.


----------



## Luminette

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If anyone has any questions, I'm here to help - feel free to PM me or get ahold of me via any of the messengers listed under my name at the top of the post_

 

My devious motives revealed!

 I've had maybe 15 people (who haven't posted here) PM me about this post so far - half are privately voicing their full support and agreement, the other half have questions about their gear. I've talked to a few people on MSN, too.

 I'm evil!

 That I feel strongly about something and it conflicts with your take does not mean I am on a mission to spread misery


----------



## Podtweaker

Wow, sixteen pages of (I'm guessing) people trying to explain/defend why they enjoy/pursue their level of involvement w/ portable music setups to someone who is no longer interested in doing the same! I'm sorry, but I have to ask (the responders of course); What was your point? Do you feel better now! I think perhaps some of you may also secretly have similar feelings. I think everyone involved w/ this thread may have been guilty of acting a bit silly. A simple "Bye, see ya" or an even simpler response of making a mental note to yourself of "Well, I don't particularly feel my level of involvement has'nt been worthwhile" makes quite a bit more sense. Come on ,sixteen pages of rhetoric when threads from posters seeking information are routinely ignored. I may be mercenary in my pursuit of my interests in that I do them for myself. You may or may not know more about a certain technology or technique than I do, that is not a big deal, I can learn (or maybe teach you something). Someone elses opinion or attitude does'nt unvalidate how I feel about things, it's just different. As we all know (now there's an oxymoronic outdated saying, as witnessed by these sixteen pages) different is'nt always better. One other thing, (I have'nt had occasion to use this line yet) "This thread needs to die" You'll have to start being creative & coming up w/ title lines for the sixteen billion topics you like to cover in one thread!


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, sixteen pages of (I'm guessing) people trying to explain/defend why they enjoy/pursue their level of involvement w/ portable music setups to someone who is no longer interested in doing the same! I'm sorry, but I have to ask (the responders of course); What was your point? Do you feel better now! I think perhaps some of you may also secretly have similar feelings. I think everyone involved w/ this thread may have been guilty of acting a bit silly. A simple "Bye, see ya" or an even simpler response of making a mental note to yourself of "Well, I don't particularly feel my level of involvement has'nt been worthwhile" makes quite a bit more sense. Come on ,sixteen pages of rhetoric when threads from posters seeking information are routinely ignored. I may be mercenary in my pursuit of my interests in that I do them for myself. You may or may not know more about a certain technology or technique than I do, that is not a big deal, I can learn (or maybe teach you something). Someone elses opinion or attitude does'nt unvalidate how I feel about things, it's just different. As we all know (now there's an oxymoronic outdated saying, as witnessed by these sixteen pages) different is'nt always better. One other thing, (I have'nt had occasion to use this line yet) "This thread needs to die" You'll have to start being creative & coming up w/ title lines for the sixteen billion topics you like to cover in one thread!_

 

if it had been as simple as that I would've just said 'see ya wouldn't want to beya'; but it wasn't luminette started to make judgments on the people who think it is a good thing. I to don't need to rely on somebody else to build cables, modify ipods etc. (haven't built an amp yet) if it stopped at just an opinion then that would be cool but it didn't. I cant argue with someones opinion, but it works the other way too.


----------



## Luminette

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You'll have to start being creative & coming up w/ title lines for the sixteen billion topics you like to cover in one thread!_

 

Should I change the title to "Cohesive conversation, potentially subject to expansive topic exploration pertaining to portable hifi"

 Would it be okay for us to keep talking to each other, then?


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ if it stopped at just an opinion then that would be cool but it didn't. I cant argue with someones opinion, but it works the other way too._

 

In your opinion, can't I have an opinion that differs from your opinion? In my opinion, I more than can. And we also have differing opinions on the idea that we are supposed to lay down and accept each others opinions in silence. 

 I think our opinions are intimately doomed to fail with each other, quspycakes

 Maybe this is all just my opinion, though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Here is something of conversational importance - Behold!






 Now that's a small amp. 

 My thoughts on it when I first saw it (earlier tonight) were mixed. It's tiny in every dimension. Surely weighs nothing. And Flywheel design is an obvious plus for a portable amp as far as theory that involves it actually being portable goes.

 But, it's ins and outs are on the side of it as it'd run parallel underneath your player.. which is sure to lead to a somewhat awkward and vulnerable placement of the LOD or mini-to-mini used. 

 What really strikes out for me, though, is this: Look at the amp design. Despite the feat of minimal size - how far off are we now from an iPod's amp? No doubt this sounds better, but by how much? I mean, there's probably three forths of a square inch of amp circuitry, the rest is battery, flywheel volume control and signal paths. *Edit*: and a baby gain switch etc hanging out in the corner there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is it even worth upgrading from the iPod (or other) amp in such a small manner? 

It's $100, and it surely sounds worse than their Minibox F which sells for $69. So you have something quite obviously less than a $69 portable amp's performance. And that $69 amp also includes an AC charger, a USB cable, a leather carrying case and a mini-to-mini cable - keep this in mind when considering what's left to be payed for out of the Minibox F that trumps the $100 tinypie. 

 Well, it's more convenient to me, it must be worth more, even though the components are fewer, on a board smaller, in an enclosure smaller! 

 Everything about this is illlllllogical.


 Have I made the trend clearer for anyone?


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if it had been as simple as that I would've just said 'see ya wouldn't want to beya'; but it wasn't luminette started to make judgments on the people who think it is a good thing. I to don't need to rely on somebody else to build cables, modify ipods etc. (haven't built an amp yet) if it stopped at just an opinion then that would be cool but it didn't. I cant argue with someones opinion, but it works the other way too._

 

That was my whole point. Where was the requirement to convince anyone that portable Hi Fi is a good thing ( Especially to someone who writes a "War & Peace" sized "mission statement" about why he finds it silly or unsatisfying, who is that for ? Looks like a little too much reasoning for self justification purposes. ) I mean no offense by this but just who is Luminette in the scheme of why someone should be interested in PHiFi ? I've never met the person who had the ultimate taste or hearing or knowledge of all that is available & like I said why would that change how I feel ? There is no point to arguing opinions, the only thing you'll accomplish is "fanning the flames" of a meaningless fire.


----------



## Little Bob

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In your opinion, can't I have an opinion that differs from your opinion? In my opinion, I more than can. And we also have differing opinions on the idea that we are supposed to lay down and accept each others opinions in silence._

 

I don't believe anyone has an issue with you voicing your opinion - I certainly haven't - it's the fact that anyone disagreeing with your opinion is apparently less intelligent than you because they haven't 'seen the light'.


----------



## Luminette

What can I do when everyone that already owns a portable rig isn't willing to consider that they've not gone the most informed route. Well, not everybody. I reference myself and so very many others on this thread that are at least willing to risk having been less informed so as to become more informed. 

 If your priorities are the ignorant contentment of whatever it is that's already fulfilling you - then we just have a core difference in values, as some of us are concerned with a more definite reality of things. Which does not mean that we feel that personal tastes do not exist, we're just, seemingly, a little more open to their being angles involving definite truths that are also in play. 

 Personally, I would say primarily in play.

 If your priorities are with what's real, then I have to implore you to consider far more angles to life than subjectivity. And to be aware of what kind of situations the subjectivity cards get used. Subjectivity has a very long history of convenience to the self.

 What more can I say to a pair of fellow hobbyists intent on making me concede strictly on the notion of personal taste w/ithout having themselves made *any* sort of bother on the merits of design and definite truths

 I just won't rollover and accept "personal taste" alone without having explored the aspects that are the most rock-solid to me. Especially when I have at all points in this thread been in acknowledgment of what you are resting your claims for possibility that I'm full of it on.


 I'm just not rolling over for that, guys - Especially when I have a brain that really feels like it knows exactly what is going on here. 


 I don't think we have much else to discuss on the matter of opinions


 So, if we could, get back to portable hifi? I'm still interested on the minibox d / f stuff I wrote on - I'd like to hear from others


----------



## Little Bob

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ ignorant contentment of whatever it is that's already fulfilling you_

 

You see - this is what is particularly frustrating.

 I have already acknowledged your initial post and agreed with many points.

 I am certain that home systems deliver better sound quality for the money - that is really not in question.

 But you continue to disregard any points about the practicality of home based (restricted) systems and how this doesn't suit everyone. 

 To me the whole issue here is that home systems are exactly that - they stay at home, they do not provide a soundtrack when you are walking on the beach with the waves lapping around your feet and this is what I want from my system - 'ignorant contentment' if you like.

 So if you're happy to sit at home listening to your music - that's cool.

 it's not enough for me though, I want a soundtrack to my life - indoors and out, and preferably with the best SQ I can achieve at a reasonable cost (to me).

 ...and I'm not going to call you ignorant for having a different opinion either, because that would just be immature and conceited.

 I'm off to walk the dog now - and I'll be taking my music with me.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What can I do when everyone that already owns a portable rig *isn't willing to consider that they've not gone the most informed route*._

 

point 1 just because I haven't become 'enlightened' in YOUR opinion; I must be missing something. How is that objective


  Quote:


 If your priorities are the *ignorant contentment *of whatever it is that's already fulfilling you - then we just have a core difference in values, as some of us are concerned with a more definite reality of things. Which does not mean that we feel that personal tastes do not exist, we're just, seemingly, a little more open to their being angles involving *definite truths* that are also in play. 
 

you say one thing, but then contradict yourself; the language you use belies your true feelings; ie. that you think you know best and I therefor must just be closed minded or dim for disagreeing with you

  Quote:


 If your priorities are with what's real, then I have to implore you to consider far more angles to life than subjectivity. And to be aware of what kind of situations the subjectivity cards get used. Subjectivity has a very long history of convenience to the self. 
 

I'm afraid *EVERYTHING IS SUBJECTIVE WE HAVE NO OTHER BASIS FROM WHICH TO MAKE JUDGEMENT*

  Quote:


 What more can I say to a pair of fellow hobbyists intent on making me concede strictly on the notion of personal taste w/ithout having themselves made *any* sort of bother on the merits of design and definite truths 
 

you just illustrated my point I have no desire to make you 'concede' only that you stop preaching that your enlightened opinion is somehow more valid than mine. So if I just thought about the 'definite truths' (<-what the hell are they) a little more, I might come around to your way of thinking???

  Quote:


 I just won't rollover and accept "personal taste" alone without having explored the aspects that are the most rock-solid to me. Especially when I have at all points in this thread been in acknowledgment of what you are resting your claims for possibility that I'm full of it on. 
 

I don't know what to say to that... you are soooo deluded ,you actually believe that you've been accepting of others opinions. In my first post I agreed with you on a few points; and then stated that I wished you hadn't been so preachy but you were entitled to your opinion. Then I went on to state my feelings on the matter. Which are that the quality gained by using an amp/LOD etc was worth it to me even if it wasn't as convenient and I didn't expect it (porta-fi) to be as good as home hi-fi; only that it was as close as was possible in the portable realm. I too wish that there was a more viable solution, or that there was a DAP manufacturer that ticked all the boxes; but there isn't (nor is there likely to be) so I have to make concessions for that. If you aren't happy to, then thats cool, but it seems that the only thing that is going to satisfy you is if someone designs a DAP that sounds as good as a home source (not going to happen) and seeing as your went to the top of the mountain and were still not satisfied, it's doubtful that you will ever be satisfied and always be bitter about something. Thats cool just don't inflict it on me!!! I know I can just ignore you and that would be the easiest thing to do; but with you shouting from the rooftops like that and making personal judgments on me, I cant 'just roll over'; when did I ask you to roll over? I just asked that you keep your judgements to yourself. If you want to do something about your situation, design your own DAP; its the only way you are going to get what you want. it seems that no amp gives you the sound you are after and likely neither will any that is designed in the future; the problem is with the source. Good as the IMOD/DIYMOD is, its not good enough for you it seems.


  Quote:


 I'm just not rolling over for that, guys - Especially when I have a brain that really feels like it knows exactly what is going on here. 
 

Exactly, but apparently we don't; because we're too busy with our 'ignorant contentment' and simply aren't getting down to the 'definite truths' not realizing what the 'most informed route' to the 'definite reality' is.


  Quote:


 I don't think we have much else to discuss on the matter of opinions 
 

fine with me I'm finished now. ??? But when were you actually open to 'discussing it? only spewing it


  Quote:


 So, if we could, get back to portable hifi? I'm still interested on the minibox d / f stuff I wrote on - I'd like to hear from others 
 

hahahahah now you are talking about a smaller amp; you weren't happy with the sound of a larger one so how exactly is this one going to stop that? is the fact that its smaller going to make it sound better? well.... I suppose the signal paths are shorter

 I thought you were finished with portable hi-fi anyway???


----------



## Samjones

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is that a condom wearing a headphone in your avatar? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

And what if it is? How can you deny *anything* the right to good sounds
 ?


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Luminette. I own the Minibox-D. And it comes with a hardcase, a power adapter for USB, USB charger and a mini-mini cable. Lol. How better is it compared to the iPod's internal amp? Personally I think it's a reasonably better, clearer notes, warmish, tones, IMO. Worth the price? For me personally, it is. It sounds better than my Headsix IMHO. And for the price and size? I've to say that it's a bargain. But of course, I myself am a bit skeptical about certain portable amplifiers (which I won't name) that definitely do not justify their price tags. I for one, can tell the difference between the iPod's headphone out with an amp. But I can't justify "certain amps". Might as well save up and get a home rig!


----------



## manaox2

Having portable music is great and it really can be a great experience. Though why are some of you paying so much for these amps? They are not the same quality, not as many quality components, often not as much labor (honestly, professionals use methods that are often not a soldering gun held by hand), buy the parts in bulk.... and to top it, (I think part of Luminette's point) most designs do not really seem all that creative. Now, I understand that a small business must charge overhead to make a profit. But maybe someone can answer why a small business designing home amps can offer some reasonable offerings (except for a few manufacturers) and the portable market is flooded with these amps at such cost. Some of you are fooled into comparing a portable to only other portables and not the product to all other products, its disheartening. Just because of batteries doesn't mean you should settle for little value and little gains.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_its a conspiracy; all but my first post disappeared
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I cant be bothered stating it all again; I like my amp+cables. if you don't then dont use them. I did enjoy our little exchange last night though manox_

 

Me too!


----------



## greggf

Does the sound of the ocean really need to be blotted out by background music?


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm afraid *EVERYTHING IS SUBJECTIVE WE HAVE NO OTHER BASIS FROM WHICH TO MAKE JUDGEMENT*_

 

That's an objective statement.


----------



## Podtweaker

"Ignorant contentment", boy we're talking about a large percentage of the entire world population here. If you want to discuss why you like certain equipment or why you think somethings are'nt as good as they're cracked up to be that is why there are forums. I have no arguement w/ that. Why is it necessary to piss people off by implying they are content because they are ignorant. Even if that is true why would you want to mess with someone's contentment. You say you just want to get back to talking about the equipment. There is nothing interupting that process until you try to show people "the error of their way". Does this need to "educate" people of their ignorance make a lot of friends for you? What the heck were you thinking when you came out w/ that statement ? If you can't convince someone of something it is probably better to leave things unsaid. They will eventually figure things out , or they won't. Now if you want to get back to talking about equipment do so. Leave all this other silliness ( & I'm talking to everyone here ) were it belongs, in the dumpster. ( "Ignorantly content" I kind of like that sounds like it could make an interesting sweatshirt)


----------



## Little Bob

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Having portable music is great and it really can be a great experience. Though why are some of you paying so much for these amps? They are not the same quality, not as many quality components, often not as much labor (honestly, professionals use methods that are often not a soldering gun held by hand), buy the parts in bulk.... and to top it, (I think part of Luminette's point) most designs do not really seem all that creative. Now, I understand that a small business must charge overhead to make a profit. But maybe someone can answer why a small business designing home amps can offer some reasonable offerings (except for a few manufacturers) and the portable market is flooded with these amps at such cost._

 

So please tell me - what amp should I have bought?

 Having bought an RSA SR-71A (which I love) clearly I should be dowsed in petrol and set alight

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some of you are fooled into comparing a portable to only other portables and not the product to all other products, its disheartening. Just because of batteries doesn't mean you should settle for little value and little gains._

 

You've lost me - if I want a portable amp what is the point of comparing with amps that are not portable?
 Should I also make comparisons with a box of frogs? They are nice and lively, but equally irrelevant.


----------



## Luckyleo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What can I do when everyone that already owns a portable rig isn't willing to consider that they've not gone the most informed route. Well, not everybody. I reference myself and so very many others on this thread that are at least willing to risk having been less informed so as to become more informed. 

 If your priorities are the ignorant contentment of whatever it is that's already fulfilling you - then we just have a core difference in values, as some of us are concerned with a more definite reality of things. Which does not mean that we feel that personal tastes do not exist, we're just, seemingly, a little more open to their being angles involving definite truths that are also in play. 

 Personally, I would say primarily in play.

 If your priorities are with what's real, then I have to implore you to consider far more angles to life than subjectivity. And to be aware of what kind of situations the subjectivity cards get used. Subjectivity has a very long history of convenience to the self.

 What more can I say to a pair of fellow hobbyists intent on making me concede strictly on the notion of personal taste w/ithout having themselves made *any* sort of bother on the merits of design and definite truths

 I just won't rollover and accept "personal taste" alone without having explored the aspects that are the most rock-solid to me. Especially when I have at all points in this thread been in acknowledgment of what you are resting your claims for possibility that I'm full of it on.


 I'm just not rolling over for that, guys - Especially when I have a brain that really feels like it knows exactly what is going on here. 


 I don't think we have much else to discuss on the matter of opinions


 So, if we could, get back to portable hifi? I'm still interested on the minibox d / f stuff I wrote on - I'd like to hear from others_

 

Luminnette,

 You've finally started to get my juices flowing. I've read the entire thread and have been reading with interest the various points, counterpoints, and thoughts about portable hi-fi. Much of what is written is quite thought provoking. After thoughtful consideration here are my thoughts on the subject.

 1) Can portable rigs be hi-fi??? YES! You take the standard SQ and get the most possible sound out of it so that it makes you happy. The SQ on an outstanding portable rig today is probably better than most reasonably priced home rigs from 10-15 years ago without doubt. Just because it may not be as good as other home setups doesn't mean it's not hi-fi.

 2) Are home rigs generally better??? YES!

 3) Are home rigs generally better bang for the buck ???? YES!

 4) Is portable hi-fi silly??? NO! NO! NO!

 If I want to maximize my listening experience regardless of where I'm at and willing to pay a premium for that privilege, and quite satisfied with myself after having done so, good for me! If you don't feel good after doing so, then you're smart to recognize that you are/were acting irrationally and you stop doing it. It's really very simple. 

 OK. I feel better. My juices are back where they belong!


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Little Bob* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So please tell me - what amp should I have bought?

 Having bought an RSA SR-71A (which I love) clearly I should be dowsed in petrol and set alight



 You've lost me - if I want a portable amp what is the point of comparing with amps that are not portable?
 Should I also make comparisons with a box of frogs? They are nice and lively, but equally irrelevant._

 

Ok. Honestly, I think the SR-71A is very likely to be one of the best portable amps on the market and I bet its a world away from any other RSA portable amplifier. I would really love to hear it. However, I'm guessing it cost you $500. If your IEMs/headphones cost about the same, which they would typically have to to remain reasonable, you should not have bought an amp. You should have put that money into better headphones/IEMs and/or source and if that isn't justifiable to you, then call it a wrap. How many portable headphones/IEMs require amps really? The only justification I can see for them existing is that the iPod and iMod sound so much better through a line-out. I would really have to hear it, but I don't think you are getting your moneys worth with that kind of source's quality then being amplified.

 I want you to look at your amp and then really consider its value in comparison to the rest of the rig. Its necessary when planning any good rig. I did that before, got the cost ratio right, and then the price just seemed like a joke after that ($2500 and thats buying smart). Wow, after all that and obtaining the best, it was able to compete with a ~$1000 home rig. Now that difference is too much unless you are in the business of throwing away money. That is a main reason why a portable rig can not compete in my opinion.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luckyleo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Just because it may not be as good as other home setups doesn't mean it's not hi-fi._

 

Yes. Actually it does. Do you know what hi-fi is? Most home setups have to cost at least $10000 to try to achieve that! All portable rigs are not silly, but calling a portable rig hi-fi truly IS.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Little Bob* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So please tell me - what amp should I have bought?

 Having bought an RSA SR-71A (which I love) clearly I should be dowsed in petrol and set alight_

 

man your a legend thats just too funny
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  Quote:


 You've lost me - if I want a portable amp what is the point of comparing with amps that are not portable?
 Should I also make comparisons with a box of frogs? They are nice and lively, but equally irrelevant. 
 

hahahahahahahahah LOL your the bomb


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's an objective statement._

 

how?? did I step outside of myself to say that??.... literally that is


----------



## manaox2

Just to put this out there, why are so many posts in this thread so melodramatic? Are some of you really that angry or sensitive about the subject? why? No one is actually getting hurt here. I admit that it was meant to mentally effect those with portable rigs; that shouldn't have any lasting effects unless something is wrong and in that case you are taking it out on the wrong people.

 I'm trying to express my opinion using logic here. Only a few posters might really be ignorant and certainly no one should be lit on fire. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm glad it hasn't gotten out of hand yet, but lets calm down the reactionary responses.


----------



## nc8000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes. Actually it does. Do you know what hi-fi is? Most home setups have to cost at least $10000 to try to achieve that! All portable rigs are not silly, but calling a portable rig hi-fi truly IS._

 

Aren't you confusing "high end" with "hifi" ?

 I think the great majority of the worlds population would say that you don't have to spend $10000 to achieve a hifi setup.

 I even seem to remember that there actually is a DIN standard for what hifi is although I think it was defined in the 70's so is probably somewhat out of date


----------



## Sherwood

Yeah, I agree with you here, nc8000. Hi-Fi just means a significantly above average fidelity to the source. I think the rigs represented here achieve that, to a degree.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


 *High fidelity*
 High fidelity or hi-fi reproduction is a term used by home stereo listeners and home audio enthusiasts (audiophiles) to refer to high-quality reproduction of sound or images that is very faithful to the original master recording. High fidelity equipment has minimal or unnoticeable amounts of noise and distortion and an accurate frequency response as set out in 1973 by the German Deutsches Institut für Normung (DIN) standard DIN 45500. The term was most widely used in this strict sense in the 1950s and 1960s; in subsequent decades, the term was applied more loosely to any mid-level stereo system. In the 2000s, the term "hi-fi" for expensive high quality home audio electronics was largely replaced with the term "high-end audio".
 See more at Wikipedia.org... 
 

high-fidelity | English | Dictionary & Translation by Babylon

 I know wikipedia is not a reliable source. But, really, I thought high-fidelity meant the upper echelon of reproduction. That would mean that these are at the top of their class. I really don't see a distinction between the two and if you do, how do you based on the definition? Just being higher quality then an iPod or higher quality then standard is pretty loose, whats the standard for quality?

 However, I see your point and know that the perceived image of words change. Right now, I'm more focused on the value of the rig side of things for the fidelity you get rather then semantics of definitions.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to put this out there, why are so many posts in this thread so melodramatic? Are some of you really that angry or sensitive about the subject? why? No one is actually getting hurt here. I admit that it was meant to mentally effect those with portable rigs; that shouldn't have any lasting effects unless something is wrong and in that case you are taking it out on the wrong people.

 I'm trying to express my opinion using logic here. Only a few posters might really be ignorant and certainly no one should be lit on fire. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm glad it hasn't gotten out of hand yet, but lets calm down the reactionary responses._

 

i'm up for that i've said my peace and responded to anything that I considered a personal affront but I dont think I was being sensitive; I was literally called ignorant and then OP went back to talking about portable amp options after saying it was just silly and he was leaving; proving this thread was just an excuse to provoke people. Now I admit I took the bait but I don't appreciate being told that something I put a lot of thought into was misguided just because OP doesn't think its worthwhile FOR THEM and I know for a fact that I FEEL ITS WORTHWHILE


----------



## Gatto




----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm up for that i've said my peace and responded to anything that I considered a personal affront but I dont think I was being sensitive; I was literally called ignorant and then OP went back to talking about portable amp options after saying it was just silly and he was leaving; proving this thread was just an excuse to provoke people. Now I admit I took the bait but I don't appreciate being told that something I put a lot of thought into was misguided just because OP doesn't think its worthwhile FOR THEM and I know for a fact that I FEEL ITS WORTHWHILE_

 

I understand.


----------



## jamato8

I see a roundtable conference coming. Someone please invite the Joker.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see a roundtable conference coming. Someone please invite the Joker._

 

nah thats not going to happen; hes revealed himself


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand._


----------



## qusp

and things are about to get even more expensive with the new IQUBE w/DAC 600 euros whats that about a grand
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and i'm already considering it; i';m sick. but no doubt it will beat the pico and therefor be the best portable USB dac/amp. first on the agenda though is customs. i've got the cables sorted and source IMO the DIYMOD is def still right up there.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and things are about to get even more expensive with the new IQUBE w/DAC 600 euros whats that about a grand
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and i'm already considering it; i';m sick. but no doubt it will beat the pico and therefor be the best portable USB dac/amp. first on the agenda though is customs. i've got the cables sorted and source IMO the DIYMOD is def still right up there._

 

If you can get over the fact that an underpowered amp is the only output for the DAC. If you need a DAC and it plugs into a non-battery powered devices typically, just don't overlook the ones with great diversity. I have my doubts that the DAC inside that will beat the PICO's also.


----------



## Sherwood

600 Euros is about 750 USD.

 I just love saying that.


----------



## Podtweaker

We may be nit-picking here, would everyone be happier if we called it our portable music rigs,(or PMRs, no scrap that ,sounds too close to that other thing((that a lot of people over here seem to have chronically)), instead of HiFi. I was under the impression High Fidelity meant anything that brought you closer to the fidelity of the recording, nothing more. Now if you were to call it Hi End or Audiophile Portable then you might be inaccurate in your terminology usage. I get the impression that a lot of people use their home theatre sound systems as their music playback system by default, I don't feel it's that particularly difficult to build a portable music rig that does'nt have the capability to sound better than these systems as most of these have a universal optical player as their source(which is why I think PDAPs are so mediocre, they are "universal" players). I use my "dedicated" home music system as my reference for what I try to do w/ my portable music rig. Some of my upgrades have brought me a little closer to the way I would like things to sound & some haven't. The whole trick is to make changes one at a time & very gradually. Does portable "hifi" exist? to my definition it does. Portable 'Hi -End' ? Not yet, but some of us don't mind the search so much.


----------



## qusp

double post


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_600 Euros is about 750 USD.

 I just love saying that._

 

its a grand to me im australian
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and thats the ridiculous thing the USD is soooo overvalued; you guys are quite literally in the poo, but you keep printing money. ooops did I say that


----------



## wolfen68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I get the impression that a lot of people use their home theatre sound systems as their music playback system by default, I don't feel it's that particularly difficult to build a portable music rig that does'nt have the capability to sound better than these systems as most of these have a universal optical player as their source(which is why I think PDAPs are so mediocre, they are "universal" players)._

 


 Good point. In my case, my portable rig tromps my home theatre system...and that stuff costs about the same.


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_its a grand to me im australian
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and thats the ridiculous thing the USD is soooo overvalued; you guys are quite literally in the poo, but you keep printing money. ooops did I say that
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wrong.

 If we were "printing money" we would be experiencing rapid inflation, which would devalue our currency in regards to yours. Instead, it is worth far more. While the US markets are indeed declining at an alarming rate, it is LESS alarming than many other former powerhouse nations. The whole world is falling apart, and the US is falling apart less, so our currency is worth more.

 Also, I am not "quite literally" standing in excrement. I'm not sure you understand what the word "literally" means.


----------



## manaox2

We are off-topic. Remember, headphone rigs are very different in nature then speaker rigs. Speakers and headphones are really hard to be used for a proper comparison, you probably should not try to compare in terms of value. Headphones are much cheaper typically in terms of producing resolution, but also have limitations in terms of visceral feedback and sound stage. That discussion is for another thread.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Gah. So many pages to read after one night! Lol. Well gotta agree with manaox2 (I think) that portable amps are often compared with portable amps. No doubt that they should be compared with those but not all the time. The price you pay for portability should only be a small portion of the cost, like what? 10%? Custom knobs, custom shapes, custom this and that blablabla. Those are just such a great way of wasting money. Aesthetics should come third when it comes to amps IMHO. Singpower amps are ugly as hell but people buy them because they sound good. Portable amps should be compared with every other amp within the same price range, regardless whether it's a portable amp or home amp. The price of portability is very questionable for an amp. Not that I'm bashing Ray, but the SR-71A? I would never call that a portable. That would be 100% hands down be labeled as a transportable IMHO. I wouldn't mind paying the same digits for a Pico. Even if it MIGHT not sound as good. Because that is an actual portable. With a DAC to boot. A portable amp is a portable amp. Portability will ALWAYS come first. Sound quality second. Aesthetics third. Transportables should 100% be compared to home rigs of the same price. Transportables are just home rigs with batteries IMHO. I don't see why they can't be compared. I haven SEEN a decent-looking (AS IN SIZE-WISE) portable amp since the Pico came out. The Pico has set such high standards which are hard to beat for a portable. And there isn't any out there that can actually beat it as of yet. Smaller than the Tomahawk and sounds bigger and better than a lot of other amps. People should start setting the Pico as the amp to beat. Not some large, non pocket friendly, chunky, transportable amp like the SR-71A or something. A lot of amps are small enough as it is. Time to make them slim enough.

 Little Bob. What amp you should've bought instead of the SR-71A that you love? A home amp or a smaller portable amp. Or even a transportable amp. The RSA XP-7 and the Lisa III should be some transportable amps which are within the same price range as the SR-71A. I would never settle with something trying to be in between.

 Headamp's Pico, Dr. Xin's amps and iBasso's line of amps. Those are the amps that other amp manufacturer's should be trying to beat in terms or portability to sound quality ratio for a decent price tag.

 Now. I am not bashing any amps I've stated in this long long essay, but seriously, isn't it the truth? Even Luminette himself can't be bothered tugging around his amps anymore. A portable rig which indeed fails to be a portable rig, is a disgrace to the word portability, regardless of how good it sounds.

 Now on a fun note. Someone should design a small, THIN amp which sounds so good for it's price that it'll make me, Luminette, or anyone who's not happy about their current portable amp, be willing to buy the amp.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wrong.

 If we were "printing money" we would be experiencing rapid inflation, which would devalue our currency in regards to yours. Instead, it is worth far more. While the US markets are indeed declining at an alarming rate, it is LESS alarming than many other former powerhouse nations. The whole world is falling apart, and the US is falling apart less, so our currency is worth more.

 Also, I am not "quite literally" standing in excrement. I'm not sure you understand what the word "literally" means._

 

I'm sorry my use of language at 4am didn't meet your lofty standards. I should've known not to get involved in a to and fro with you; I dont know what I was thinking you seem quite content to just stand on the sidelines and contribute nothing but 'smart' comments; picking at the semantics of one tiny piece of somebody's post and making fun of it; while leaving the topic at hand unaltered. Does this make you feel intellectually superior?

 Anyway i've had enough of conflict; so what do we suggest to make these amps more portable?; no volume control? or perhaps a quality inline volume control? This would spread the form factor out over two manageable size pieces. The limiting factors in miniaturization are 3 things: 

 1 a decent volume knob.

 2 the size of decent capacitors 

 3 the size of a decent long-life battery power supply with enough current to drive a large range of headphones. 

 what can we do about the other 2? perhaps solar powered augmentation of a smaller power supply lol now i'm just being silly but seriously what can we do about that one guys? Its not like an amp manufacturer is going to get involved in the prototyping and manufacturing of batteries. 
 With capacitors I guess if you're willing to take a SQ hit in the interest of portability then that could be reduced as well.

 any other suggestion? lets list the limiting factors and tackle them 1 by 1


----------



## frozenice

I think what you have to do is have a recessed part - that is recessed enough for the Apple Nano to fit in - with a dock connector at the bottom and a means of securing the Nano at the top. Make it the size of the Predator and then you would have an all-in-one solution.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *frozenice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think what you have to do is have a recessed part - that is recessed enough for the Apple Nano to fit in - with a dock connector at the bottom and a means of securing the Nano at the top. Make it the size of the Predator and then you would have an all-in-one solution._

 

sounds good except it would limit the market to people wit nanos and then probably apple would release a different sized/shaped nano anyway. plus that would mean that it would have to be at least 15mm wider and thicker than the dap. good though


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_any other suggestion? lets list the limiting factors and tackle them 1 by 1_

 

A true portable won't manage the optimal voltage swing needed for those high impedance low sensitivity headphones using current small batteries with a decent life, if you like them with that still, fine, but its not being properly amped (physically impossible). Now the design plays into it a ton and I'm not an advanced DIY guy at all. Keeping power and ground out of the signal as much as possible (shouldn't be hard with ground). The mini-3 would be a good portable design to study for the project maybe. 

 Recessed is interesting, a DIYer could also get that made... smaller, cheaper, more rugged, no large interconnect and its also possibly better quality, like having it hardwired. Great idea. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe thats the DIY innovation that was mentioned needed earlier. I don't think anything except the iPod/iMod necessarily call for an amp either.

 I also think blackgates are not too big and are a good size. The capacity needed for a portable does not require these huge balking capacitors. Portables don't need large values with the power involved, so the size is not needed. I personally think that a lot of head-fiers put too much stock in how large the capacitors are and get ideas like "more burn-in" needed and higher quality. Its absolutely not needed or necessarily true and very few portables from the portable offerings outside of RSA use the huge capacitor.

 I think the iQube proved a point that power can be tamed a bit for excellent effect and battery life. I wish the price was more affordable, but it was the best I've heard in terms of detail and bass tightness. I didn't listen to it for long however and I've heard some things from others that I need to get another listen.

 I need to call it a night though, really, someone more involved with amp design should be doing this.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sounds good except it would limit the market to people wit nanos and then probably apple would release a different sized/shaped nano anyway. plus that would mean that it would have to be at least 15mm wider and thicker than the dap. good though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You could aways add an adapter that fits in that recessed part. Designs can be updated. 15 mm wider and thicker is NOTHING compared to today's portable amps.


----------



## qusp

problem is that blackgate are the exception; with other high quality capacitors even low values are quite large. too low and you get bass roll off, too high and you get rolled off highs. I think the only way we are going to get this done is to do it ourselves as a committee there is a guy that was talking about building an amp on the DIYMOD thread a couple of days ago; and he said he was going to open it up for suggestions from us. Perhaps i'll PM him later with the URL for this thread. Then we can decide on the mission statement and start a new thread to deal with it.

 sound like a good idea?

 \I agree with you about the ground plane the need to 'sandwhich' the amp components between 2 ground planes and isolate the power supply is essential for quiet operation


----------



## jamato8

There is also a debate as to whether two ground planes is effective at improving the sound. There is the opinion that this can actually degrade the sound.


----------



## Luckyleo

Listen, I've a SR71A and consider it a portable. Why? I carry it in a man purse. I know it sounds strange, but it's true. I may get some strange looks, but it works. For me a Pico is as portable as is an SR71A, as Millet Hybryd as is an RSA P51. Transportability and great sound quality is what I need and what I have. I would recommend that anyone who needs/desires portability would be a fool to invest in a home rig. Period. If you're not there to hear it why set it up? Wake up guys. We're talking about apples and oranges. Why is that such a hard concept to accept, understand, and move on?


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sorry my use of language at 4am didn't meet your lofty standards. I should've known not to get involved in a to and fro with you; I dont know what I was thinking you seem quite content to just stand on the sidelines and contribute nothing but 'smart' comments; picking at the semantics of one tiny piece of somebody's post and making fun of it; while leaving the topic at hand unaltered. Does this make you feel intellectually superior?_

 

AS concerns the "topic at hand" I made my peace on the first page. Perhaps you read it already? Maybe not. I find portable amps to be a money pit, but I've absolutely no objection to any of you using and enjoying them. It's your money and time. There's no issue beyond that for me to debate here. 

 You can dig at my intentions all you please, but it's "quite literally" beyond me why you feel so strongly about defending something like a portable amplifier. _I'm_ fighting _you_ because I think the positions you're taking (about issues other than the "one at hand") are dumb, so I thought I'd poke logical holes in your arguments. Why are _you_ fighting _me_?


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luckyleo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Listen, I've a SR71A and consider it a portable. Why? I carry it in a man purse. I know it sounds strange, but it's true. I may get some strange looks, but it works. For me a Pico is as portable as is an SR71A, as Millet Hybryd as is an RSA P51. Transportability and great sound quality is what I need and what I have. I would recommend that anyone who needs/desires portability would be a fool to invest in a home rig. Period. If you're not there to hear it why set it up? Wake up guys. We're talking about apples and oranges. Why is that such a hard concept to accept, understand, and move on?_

 


 But not everyone uses a man purse, true? And most of us use our pockets, true? It's true that if someone needs portability, then they shouldn't invest in a home rig. But there are two types of portables now. Portables and transportables. Portables IMHO should at least be able to fit in your pockets without a hassle. The essence of portability has always been convenience. And if a portable isn't even convenient to fit inside a pocket, should we still label it as a portable?

 This argument has gone out of hand IMHO. From no amps vs. amps to home amps vs. portable amps to portable amps vs. transportable amps.


 IMHO, for those arguing about parts and such. If Dr. Xin can make great amps in very small packages, why can't the rest follow up?

 Sound quality at the cost of an increased size, especially thickness is not worth it at all.

 EDIT: Even Justin from Headamp can make something like the Pico for crying out loud!


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 I think the positions you're taking (about issues other than the "one at hand") are dumb, so I thought I'd poke logical holes in your arguments. Why are you fighting me?_

 

you just answered your own question with that statement. do you actually read what you write? 

 you seem to have totally missed my point; i'm not defending portable amps; in fact I stated more than once that if somebody designed a solution that rid me of the need to carry one I would use it. i'm defending my right to use one because it makes me feel happy and its a means to my ends. that was my issue with OP's attitude that apparently I should just see the error of my ways throw out all this stuff that brings me enjoyment. silly me how could I be so stupid; I should have seen it all along.


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you actually read what you write? _

 

Do _you_ read what I write? It loses most of its meaning without the italicization, I think.

 I never once assaulted your right to own a portable amp, or your reasons for doing so. Despite that, you keep defending your choice to me. I don't care what you do. Do whatever you like.

 I disagreed with your stance on there being no objective opinions, and I voiced that in what I thought was a civil way. I later disagreed with your usage of the word "literally" when you meant exactly the opposite. I admit I was less civil then.

 Your every response to me contains either personal vitriol or some windy defense of your reasoning behind owning a portable amp. Again, I don't care. There's no real need for me to continue being so untoward, however, so I'm perfectly happy to continue henceforth debating whether or not everyone who spends money on something other people don't like is, in fact, dumb.

 As we were.


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_EDIT: Even Justin from Headamp can make something like the Pico for crying out loud!_

 

Justin from Headamp is a really talented builder. He's the only builder I can think of who has subjected himself to the physical and mental torture that is churning out BHSE units for anyone who wants to buy one. I'm reading this as your saying that if Justin can do it, anyone can. In my experience that is hardly true.


----------



## Moontan13

It's possible to enjoy headfi on different levels. As in home audio circles, there can be a little snob factor going on. For me, a portable amp isn't in the cards, as my iPod is on the verge of too big as it is. I do enjoy reading about them. I believ 90% of the desired SQ can be achieved with the right phones.

 As to home amps, I need some convincing that a dedicated headphone amp is any better than a decent home reciever. Even some tape decks have good headphone amps. My Onkyo TX 2060 seems made for my Denon headphones. Can I be convinced otherwise? Probably, but only if the SQ is there to back it up. The big hurdle is that there's really no place to do comparisons.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Justin from Headamp is a really talented builder. He's the only builder I can think of who has subjected himself to the physical and mental torture that is churning out BHSE units for anyone who wants to buy one. I'm reading this as your saying that if Justin can do it, anyone can. In my experience that is hardly true._

 


 My view would be... If a one-man company can think of something as good as the Pico, then I don't see why companies with more than a one-man team can't do as well or design something better?


----------



## qusp

sorry for the OT guys just one more and i'm done; I will go back to discussing the matter at hand. please feel free to ignore this post i'm not dsaying anything new on the subject at hand.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you read what I write? It loses most of its meaning without the italicization, I think._

 

when did I profess to have a perfect train of thought and reasoning? you are the only one seeming to do that. I admit that my use of the word literally was incorrect, but why did you feel the need to point it out? does that give you some strange satisfaction to be giving me english lessons? your obsession with semantics confuses me.

  Quote:


 I never once assaulted your right to own a portable amp, or your reasons for doing so. Despite that, you keep defending your choice to me. I don't care what you do. Do whatever you like. 
 

how was me explaining my viewpoint regarding the OP's stance me trying to justify it to YOU? and thankyou I will.

  Quote:


 I disagreed with your stance on there being no objective opinions, and I voiced that in what I thought was a civil way. I later disagreed with your usage of the word "literally" when you meant exactly the opposite. I admit I was less civil then. 
 

we wont go into that but suffice to say IMO the use of the word objective only works on paper. there is no way anyone can think about something in a way that isn't coloured by their own thought process and feelings; thus making it subjective

  Quote:


 Your every response to me contains either personal vitriol or some windy defense of your reasoning behind owning a portable amp. Again, I don't care. There's no real need for me to continue being so untoward, however, so I'm perfectly happy to continue henceforth debating whether or not everyone who spends money on something other people don't like is, in fact, dumb. 
 

your own motives in your own words were to point out my, in your opinion inappropriate and _*DUMB*_ linguistic errors and have a bit of fun at my expense. that to me is counter productive; especially when I was already clearly a bit worked up. How was I meant to react and what did you hope to achieve?

  Quote:


 As we were. 
 

cool with me; I dont even know you so I dont have an issue with you; only your behavior towards me. i'm happy to get back to trying to find a solution to this problem. I dont wish to fight anymore; can we just move on?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_when did I profess to have a perfect train of thought and reasoning? you are the only one seeming to do that. I admit that my use of the word literally was incorrect, but why did you feel the need to point it out? does that give you some strange satisfaction to be giving me english lessons? your obsession with semantics confuses me._

 

*Sherwood just spent the last year teaching english in Turkey, that's why! *


----------



## nickyboyo

I knew this would happen, in fact i said so to lum when he first posted this thread- it will all end in farce. qusp, let it drop mate, from what i can be bothered to read sherwood has you over a barrel and is playing you like a puppet.

 As to the op- i agree partially, but just every now and then, when components just come together well, mediocre musical playback can be made to sound just that little bit more enjoyable.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nickyboyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I knew this would happen, in fact i said so to lum when he first posted this thread- it will all end in farce. qusp, let it drop mate, from what i can be bothered to read sherwood has you over a barrel and is playing you like a puppet._

 

I know he was but its not like I was blind to it; I just wanted him to stop his puerile jabs and get on with it; but then I got caught up in the whole thing. i am done with it now; I hope he is; I hate game players


----------



## Shike

Personally, I use an amp as a buffer for my IEMs . . . that's because the 120GB Zune apparently hates low impedance loads though. Beyond a Mini^3 it's not worth it.

 I'd dare say though, it's not worth it at home either since all I have is low impedance phones. I can imagine a transistor amp would sound slightly better (more texture usually) . . . but as I'm already good to go in my HT setup . . . eh.

 For those making a home system though, the priorities should be completely different from a portable setup. Unfortunately, I have to use my portable later at night for obvious reasons . . .


----------



## mrarroyo

There are many small portable amps of small size. For example:

 1. MiniBox-E+: this unit also allows op-amp rolling, with a pair of AD797 being an excellent choice.
 2. iBasso P2, P3, D2, or D3. All excellent plus the P3 and D2 allow op-amp rolling.
 3. Xin's Supermicro, Supermini, Reference or Supermacro. The last three allow op-amp rolling.
 4. RSA Tomahawk, P51, etc.
 5. Pico

 FWIW, I have heard all of the above except the P51 and they are all excellent sounding if the source is up to the task. Like an iModded iPod w/ Lossless files.

 So can a portable be hi-fi. HELL YES! Unless you are an elitist snob!


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Sherwood just spent the last year teaching english in Turkey, that's why! *



_

 

WOW i never would've guessed; I bet his pupils really love him; I feel so enriched for the experience


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_WOW i never would've guessed; I bet his pupils really love him; I feel so enriched for the experience_

 

Well, the first one's free, but after that I'm going to start charging 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All that aside, I acted out of character. It's been a stressful few days, and I obviously took it out on someone who was not the problem. That is, unless you're actually a television hypnotist from California, Qusp. If you aren't, my sincere apologies for my uncivility. It doesn't suit me.

 Hopefully I've not derailed this useful thread too much. Sorry all.


----------



## cameron991

I just don't understand the entire amp thing. Let me preface by saying that I don't begrudge anyone who uses an amp or indicates that they notice an increase in sq by using one. I just don't. I have tried 3, and did not notice anything special. The most recent was the tomahawk. Oh I could tell a slight increase in sq when I was sitting alone in my home with nothing else going on. But an Ipod or any other mp3 type player were designed for portability and style. Even the thickness of the tomahawk, despite it's small size, made my ipod the thickness of a brick. I don't know what type of clothes the rest of you wear, but it certainly does not fit comfortably in my pocket. And as far as style, the banding together of the 2 and the coiled snake coming out of the bottom certainly is not stylish. Not worth the cost or the bulk in my opinion. If I am at home, I would rather stick my phones in my reciever than use an ipod and an amp.


----------



## Sherwood

I am a teenager from the early nineties, and as such my pockets have plenty of room for most portable amps/docks/DAPs/etc.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am a teenager from the early nineties, and as such my pockets have plenty of room for most portable amps/docks/DAPs/etc._

 

You mean you "were a teenager in the 90's" and not that you are a "teenager born in the 90's"...

 Get your engrish right buddy!

 (I almost typed teenanger)


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You mean you "were a teenager in the 90's" and not that you are a "teenager born in the 90's"..._

 

Not quite -- by a miracle of modern science I have preserved as a teenager from 1994. As such, the only pants I may wear (legally and morally) are these:


----------



## major_works

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Little Bob* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm off to walk the dog now - and I'll be taking my music with me._

 

Little Bob has it perfect, and I relate 110% to his comments. Why? Because my portable rig gets used mostly when I'm walking the dog! I stick the rig into the handwarmer pocket of a sweatshirt, clamp on the SR60s, and listen to tunes while I kick a tennis ball around the yard for the puppy to chase.

 My 160G Classic has more than enough room for every piece of music I own. I run the iPod through a bass-boost cMoy and I like what I hear in the Grados. The whole thing makes me happy and relaxes me. Isn't that all that matters? 

 I kind of feel sorry for the OP, who dropped a whole bunch of coin on his rig and isn't happy with it. He either a) listens too critically and expects too much or b) doesn't listen critically enough before parting with his money. Not sure which; that's for him to deal with.


----------



## cameron991

Then I guess it would be stylish in your circles.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *major_works* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Little Bob has it perfect, and I relate 110% to his comments. Why? Because my portable rig gets used mostly when I'm walking the dog! I stick the rig into the handwarmer pocket of a sweatshirt, clamp on the SR60s, and listen to tunes while I kick a tennis ball around the yard for the puppy to chase.

 My 160G Classic has more than enough room for every piece of music I own. I run the iPod through a bass-boost cMoy and I like what I hear in the Grados. The whole thing makes me happy and relaxes me. Isn't that all that matters? 

 I kind of feel sorry for the OP, who dropped a whole bunch of coin on his rig and isn't happy with it. He either a) listens too critically and expects too much or b) doesn't listen critically enough before parting with his money. Not sure which; that's for him to deal with._

 

I think your rig is not as expensive as many and its very appropriate for your application. 

 As for the OP, The OP didn't have a chance to listen before buying, like many of us. A lot of these portables contain a lot of money involved, it makes sense to expect a very noticeable difference.


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think your rig is not as expensive as many and its very appropriate for your application. 

 As for the OP, The OP didn't have a chance to listen before buying, like many of us. A lot of these portables contain a lot of money involved, it makes sense to expect a very noticeable difference._

 

I don't know if it makes any sense to get as involved w/ expensive rigs if the source material you normally listen to has only the average amount of resolution inherent to the genres of music you listen to. In other words it is very hard to hear noticeable differences when the quality of the recorded sound has only so much resolution to begin with. I don't have the most expensive setup, but I can honestly say that none of the improvements I've made so far have yielded diminishing returns so far. There is a lot of music I have no desire to touch as the quality of the recordings may be questionable at best. The saying "Don't blame the messenger" is appropriate. I had to bring this up as those who keep talking about where the ceilling is on improvements have given me no point of reference as to how they've arrived at their conclusions.


----------



## mrarroyo

Good point Podtweaker. If the music is overly compressed and we compound it by using a lower quality setting of mp3 then it would not be advantageous to use very expensive rigs.

 Furthermore if we use the rig in a noisy environment it ads weight to not spending a lot due to the conditions under we listen. However in a quiet environment w/ high quality recording it would be an advantage. IMO of course.


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good point Podtweaker. If the music is overly compressed and we compound it by using a lower quality setting of mp3 then it would not be advantageous to use very expensive rigs.

 Furthermore if we use the rig in a noisy environment it ads weight to not spending a lot due to the conditions under we listen. However in a quiet environment w/ high quality recording it would be an advantage. IMO of course._

 

Thanks. I was not only refering to the compression factor,but to the whole production value of the music we load on our players. All recording labels are not as equally concerned about the SQ they produce & it goes a bit further than even that. Depending (unfortunately)on the genre of music we listen to 
 "representative" recording techniques are out the window in favor of a "loud mix". The general pubic does'nt really care whether or not a "soundstage" exists or even what it is. If the sound isn't "driving" & they can't "hear" everything they will complain. Good recordings do exist in all genres, but in many cases by default(& you can bet a lot of these recordings are not highly regarded by most) not by design, unless we are talking about an independent label.


----------



## suzuki

i agree with the post/luminette and manaox2.
 i was just at a head fi meet and got a chance to listen to all the portable amps with many headphones, hi and low end all of which get very high praise here.
 if portable amps really are that great why was nobody except me listening to them? i think it was that i am new to the headphone game and was logically thinking that an portable amp would improve my already great sounding 1st gen shuffle/3rd gen nano and pk2/3's.(everyone else must have know what i was about to find out?), you know what,,, they all made it worse. they all added distortion and bloated the bass and lost fine detail. even all the headphones i tried didn't sound better, go figure.
 my logical thinking came because i have a home theatre system with a boston acoustics,onkyo setup and the sound is amazing. it's like the musicians are in my home. it's just than when i changed amps at home the sound IS improved, very noticible. not so with portable amps! i was very shocked that none of the BIG name headphones were really better, i would not have swapped any of em for my pk2 or 3! 
 something that suprised me even more is that there were home rigs there and i still wouldn't swap! and they would have cost 2-3 thousand. i never tried iem's.
 as far as people thinking they can build a better sounding headphone system than a speaker system are kidding themselves! i have heard a much better home theatre system with 5 small speakers and sub plus amp intergrated with a cd/dvd player for $1800aud.

 my yuins will do me just fine. the only thing is i never heard the pk1 and they need an amp, oops, what to do? if i did spend on the pk1 it would be for home and with a cheap amp. is it worth it????????? or get great iem??????

 i also think that the phones that come with the ipod ain't all that bad, certainly listenable for portable use and enjoyable.

 i also think it won't be long before apple bring out a really good clean sounding device that will bring us all closer to really awesome portable sound.
 i just hope they focus their efforts on sound quality and not marketability.

 i love music it's my hobby and have been in the speaker listening game for 25 years and been to many shows and always pop in to shops for auditions. 

 i don't mean to put anyone off just watch how you young fellas spend your money.

 who would have though made in china would sound so good?


----------



## WindowsX

Portable-fi challenging close to home-fi.....this thread just getting more and more interesting. Looks like I've made fun of a lot of people here from selling SR-71a (Just good as upsampling with EQ boost from foobar lol. Where's good buffer?).


----------



## manaox2

I have just been thinking here that, though amplification is very important when needed and a few people have strongly hinted at this already, portable headphones are typically low impedance and high sensitivity. The amplification needed is not usually much more then the headphone jack would provide. A lot of the quality problems can come from the internal digital to analog components and not the amplification. If thats true, your only amplifying these problems. 

 If all that is usually the case, what you are paying for is more akin to an advanced portable equalizer and the line-out is the main increase in quality.


----------



## Luminette

Good point by manaox

 The whole iMod rig is gone now, far far away to hong kong 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And the normal iPod is on it's way here. 



 I'm still on indefinite leave/break from this thread - it's pretty disheartening.


----------



## Lil' Knight

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 The whole iMod rig is gone now

_

 

Very nice move


----------



## synaesthetic

A728 -> ER-6i

 portable, sounds good, is cheap.

 win.


----------



## bizkid

100% agree to the OP. 

 But much of it can also be said about home rigs imho.
 My portable rig is my sony 818 -> esw10 or dt770 600 ohm.

 Even the 600 ohm variant sounds absolutely fine out of the sony compared to the dac1 outputs or the phonitor. The difference in bass control is small. Biggest differences are in clarity and soundstage size and instrument seperation ie you can easily hear microphone distance on the vocals. Not something i'll need to hear on the go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The volume is ofcourse limited but enough for me.
 The ESW10 interestingly shows more improvement through my home rig but it is perfectly enjoyable through the sony and leaves nothing to be desired.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good point by manaox

 The whole iMod rig is gone now, far far away to hong kong 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And the normal iPod is on it's way here. 



 I'm still on indefinite leave/break from this thread - it's pretty disheartening._

 

Sorry for your loss, you'll have to get some good new quality stuff with that money to help.


----------



## Luckyleo

Suzuki,

 I don't know what you expect from portable, transportable, "big but can still somehow carry" gear?????? I Know that what I'm hearing is great audio. It's hi fidelity. My amps/headphones/IEM's sound tremendous with the Pico and/or the SR-71A. I don't know what you listened to, I don't what you're headphones are, all I know is that even the simple/cheap pa2v2 made my listening experience better, let alone a great amp like the SR-71A. Maybe you're ears just aren't developed? Maybe you have bad gear? I don't know, don't really care. I just had a few moments to respond so I did. Enjoy whatever listening experience you have to the max!


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Enjoy whatever listening experience you have to the max!

 Without lugging around chunky gear which aren't worth the effort.


----------



## suzuki

hi luckyleo,

 i expected an amp to improve the sound of my pk2 with my nano and it made it worse. not just my nano but other players as well and not just my phones but all the ones i listened to(i'm talking big money/brands) including your esw9and k701 and most of your amps.
 even the home rigs with cd players and amps costing thousands was not enjoyable. the sound on all the phones i listened to were not balanced, eg favoured the highs, mids or lows and definately had distortion.

 nobody's ears need training to listen to music. music should be enjoyable and make you move/grove get emotional and make you want to sing and listen more and more. you shouldn't need training for that, it's natural and music should naturaly bring all that out.

 i've been to over 100 live gigs indoor, outdoor, small, big, listened to hundreds of speakers and my pk2's, so far come closest to real music and enjoyment. i even owned allesandro ms1 and returned them after burn in (50-80 hours) for all the reasons above. pk3 were even better. and i believe all electronics and headphones need burn in!

 sorry but i think better sound can be had for less, a lot less.

 my advice to people is go to headphone meets, try out as much as you can and make your own mind up. also go to as much live music as you can for reference. my listening at the meet was with full size headphones. never tried iem's.

 good portable music should be player-headphones/buds/iem, whatever your choice. 

 if you are going to spend thousands and you can listen at home without disturbing anyone get proper speakers! 

 happy listening,
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 suzuki


----------



## wuwhere

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have just been thinking here that, though amplification is very important when needed and a few people have strongly hinted at this already, portable headphones are typically low impedance and high sensitivity. The amplification needed is not usually much more then the headphone jack would provide. A lot of the quality problems can come from the internal digital to analog components and not the amplification. If thats true, your only amplifying these problems. 

 If all that is usually the case, what you are paying for is more akin to an advanced portable equalizer and the line-out is the main increase in quality._

 

Separating the source from the amplifier provides a separate power source for each, namely the battery. You can liken this to high end, where the source is separated from the preamp which is separated from the amplifier. Each has its own power supply so that they don't compete with each other for current.


----------



## jamato8

And to go even further use two indentical amps and run your headphones from these and you end up with mono amps. I have IC's I have made that allows me to do this. Very, very nice.


----------



## wuwhere

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And to go even further use two amp and run your headphones from identical amps and mono amps. I have IC's I have made that allows me to do this. Very, very nice._

 

Cool. I'm sure on loud passages they don't sound constricted compared to straight out of your source.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luckyleo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Suzuki,

 I don't know what you expect from portable, transportable, "big but can still somehow carry" gear?????? I Know that what I'm hearing is great audio. It's hi fidelity. My amps/headphones/IEM's sound tremendous with the Pico and/or the SR-71A. I don't know what you listened to, I don't what you're headphones are, all I know is that even the simple/cheap pa2v2 made my listening experience better, let alone a great amp like the SR-71A. Maybe you're ears just aren't developed? Maybe you have bad gear? I don't know, don't really care. I just had a few moments to respond so I did. Enjoy whatever listening experience you have to the max! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Why don't you own a home rig? Are you sure you are getting the best listening experience possibly?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wuwhere* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Separating the source from the amplifier provides a separate power source for each, namely the battery. You can liken this to high end, where the source is separated from the preamp which is separated from the amplifier. Each has its own power supply so that they don't compete with each other for current._

 

Granted a good clean power source and interference reduction matters (I realize you did not mention this part, this is just informative), but an amp doesn't get rid of the distortion from unclean power or the distortion coming from interference from the internal amplifier affecting the source's quality of sound. Those problems would only be amplified. So unless the amplifier isn't powerful enough to drive your headphones, there is no need.

 Perhaps that is the case for you, but spending hundreds on an amplifier when the problem lies with the source design or headphones seems like an impractical solution. I still say get a better source or better (perhaps more proper) headphones with the money if your goal is still quality and portability at once.


----------



## tongson

Completely agree with the OP. I dodged Portable silliness quite a few times.


----------



## ljcii

Hey so do you think i should buy a portable amplifier to boost my re-1s or forget about it?


----------



## Luckyleo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *suzuki* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi luckyleo,

 i expected an amp to improve the sound of my pk2 with my nano and it made it worse. not just my nano but other players as well and not just my phones but all the ones i listened to(i'm talking big money/brands) including your esw9and k701 and most of your amps.
 even the home rigs with cd players and amps costing thousands was not enjoyable. the sound on all the phones i listened to were not balanced, eg favoured the highs, mids or lows and definately had distortion.

 nobody's ears need training to listen to music. music should be enjoyable and make you move/grove get emotional and make you want to sing and listen more and more. you shouldn't need training for that, it's natural and music should naturaly bring all that out.

 i've been to over 100 live gigs indoor, outdoor, small, big, listened to hundreds of speakers and my pk2's, so far come closest to real music and enjoyment. i even owned allesandro ms1 and returned them after burn in (50-80 hours) for all the reasons above. pk3 were even better. and i believe all electronics and headphones need burn in!

 sorry but i think better sound can be had for less, a lot less.

 my advice to people is go to headphone meets, try out as much as you can and make your own mind up. also go to as much live music as you can for reference. my listening at the meet was with full size headphones. never tried iem's.

 good portable music should be player-headphones/buds/iem, whatever your choice. 

 if you are going to spend thousands and you can listen at home without disturbing anyone get proper speakers! 

 happy listening,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 suzuki_

 

Suzuki,

 Well, we agree that music should be fun, and enjoyable. I too wish you happy listening!!! Good Luck.

 Leo


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you own a home rig? Are you sure you are getting the best listening experience possibly?



 Granted a good clean power source and interference reduction matters (I realize you did not mention this part, this is just informative), but an amp doesn't get rid of the distortion from unclean power or the distortion coming from interference from the internal amplifier affecting the source's quality of sound. Those problems would only be amplified. So unless the amplifier isn't powerful enough to drive your headphones, there is no need.

 Perhaps that is the case for you, but spending hundreds on an amplifier when the problem lies with the source design or headphones seems like an impractical solution. I still say get a better source or better (perhaps more proper) headphones with the money if your goal is still quality and portability at once._

 

Even when I was using fairly effecient IEMs I noticed a pretty substancial increase in sound quality when I started using a portable amp. I think the added amplification stage may act as a buffering stage between the signal it sees from the source players output & it's own amplification stage. I can remember seeing posts about how "double amplifying" will only amplify what is coming from the first stage. I'm a fairly critical listener, in my experience this does'nt appear to be the actual case. The amount of difference in the portrayal of inner detail is quite huge. Once again I'll go back & say if your source material is'nt that detailed to begin with you may not notice these differences,or as implied by the majority of this thread content,have much need for external amplification. And as Jimminy Cricket sang many years ago"And always let your conscience be your guide". One other thing(I've been making this a habit lately) "This is intended to be informational as opposed to educational as I'm not really sure educating people in how to pursue their entertainment interests is at all that necessary or called for unless this is a strictly beginers forum" I do have a very good home system, but if I decide to take a trip or vacation I don't miss it quite so much because I still have a playback source that is in most cases better than what is available to me.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Even when I was using fairly effecient IEMs I noticed a pretty substancial increase in sound quality when I started using a portable amp. I think the added amplification stage may act as a buffering stage between the signal it sees from the source players output & it's own amplification stage. I can remember seeing posts about how "double amplifying" will only amplify what is coming from the first stage. I'm a fairly critical listener, in my experience this does'nt appear to be the actual case. The amount of difference in the portrayal of inner detail is quite huge. Once again I'll go back & say if your source material is'nt that detailed to begin with you may not notice these differences,or as implied by the majority of this thread content,have much need for external amplification._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have just been thinking here that, though amplification is very important when needed and a few people have strongly hinted at this already, portable headphones are typically low impedance and high sensitivity. The amplification needed is not usually much more then the headphone jack would provide. A lot of the quality problems can come from the internal digital to analog components and not the amplification. If thats true, your only amplifying these problems. 

 If all that is usually the case, what you are paying for is more akin to an advanced portable equalizer and *the line-out is the main increase in quality*._

 

I'm guessing your using the line-out or your setting the headphone output to be at line-out level? Maybe that is what you mean by the amp being the buffer? That can be come an expensive way to get out the extra detail. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This also may be why Dr. Xin's amps can be so small and still sound better maybe? (not sure on that...)

 It still seems to amplify noise and distortion. Digital attenuation hurts some, but keeps it portable. I'm also a fan of reducing the amount of active components in the signal path. I know that an inline potentiometer would dull the sound, so amplification is necessary for a line-out signal. Though I would not pay for a $500 for what equates to a comparatively large inline volume control and equalizer for any source less then $1500, especially not with the combined degradation caused by connectors that have tiny traces connected to large expensive wires.

 It may be hard for some of you to know where the right ratio of size to sound quality is, but it doesn't seem that hard when you throw the cost in there.


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## Detritusdave

Spent ages trying to find a way to have my music wherever I am in the house... Not that I live in a huge house, but as I work mostly from home I don't like to just stay in the same room in my leisure time if I can help it.... bought a Sony A818 after my Iaudio X5 died.... great for when I'm outside the house, but couldn't get 'settled' with the setup for in the house.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, bought an Iaudio A3..... hate it... not sure why yet.... and put a tiny little scratch in the screen, so I don't think I can sell it on....

 So, I've gone to using my macbook with a 160gb external hd as source, through my motu traveler and into my ety's (until my triple.fi's come back from repair). Not exactly 'portable' in the sense that you could walk down the street with it, but it's easy enough to move around. And sounds absolutely awesome, especially when using Audio Hijack Pro/Audio Units to route the sound through. Until I convince myself that the MOTU is too cumbersome to transport everywhere and get the craving/cash for a headphone amp/dac that is....


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## Podtweaker

manaox2;4912775 said:
			
		

> I'm guessing your using the line-out or your setting the headphone output to be at line-out level? Maybe that is what you mean by the amp being the buffer?
> I suppose I'm am using the wrong term when I say it may be "buffering" the output of the source player. I guess a better way to describe it would be that the portable amp appears to be "finishing" the barely sufficient job that the players' internal amplifier seems to be doing with the signal. At the present time my Zune doesn't have a true line-out option & I currently keep the Zune volume at about 75%. Between my amp (a Zen Head ZH1) & IC(Kimber Kable"?") I've spent about $360 . If anything, any noise artifacts,that may have existed in the sound no longer do & I notice more of the characteristics of certain recordings that I hear when playing the same recordings on my home system. I no longer use IEMs(my ear canals don't like them.) Is my portable system practical to most people , probably not. Would I change to less components for convience sake, not interested in considering that, due to the fact I truly get a kick out of how good my music sounds when I'm out. While this may not (although sometimes that determination is close enough to be debatable) be true hifi I don't find the cost ratio to actual performance factor particularly outrageous(well not yet anyway, honesty counts(he says grudgingly)) enough to go back to a basic setup. It's all not silly to me.


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## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *suzuki* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i agree with the post/luminette and manaox2.
 i was just at a head fi meet and got a chance to listen to all the portable amps with many headphones, hi and low end all of which get very high praise here.
 if portable amps really are that great why was nobody except me listening to them?_

 

I think if you read the impressions thread you might notice that a lot of the reviews/impressions were done using portables; and certainly the most mentioned amp/rig there was the lisa III (transportable) and teflon cap dock. I think everyone had heard the portables there because there really wasn't anything new there and there so didn't really need to sample them that much; instead grabbing their own every now and again and using it for synergy comparisons. I certainly know that I was asked at least 8-10 times if someone could use my pico (and there were 5 picos there) and my SE530's were hardly ever on the table. 

 As some of you may have realized by now; I was at the same meet (I think???) there were lots of flagship headphones there; not driven so well by portable amps; MD5000 x 2 1 jena recabled, K1000, Ultrasone ED9 (
  Quote:


 i think it was that i am new to the headphone game and was logically thinking that an portable amp would improve my already great sounding 1st gen shuffle/3rd gen nano and pk2/3's. 
 

an amp improve the HP out of a shuffle driving pk2/3 hmmmmmm????

  Quote:


 (everyone else must have know what i was about to find out?), you know what,,, they all made it worse. they all added distortion and bloated the bass and lost fine detail. even all the headphones i tried didn't sound better, go figure. 
 

What do you mean we must've known what you were going to find out? thats a strange statement; are you implying that we all buy this stuff and use it for show but now you've been to a meet the game is up?. were you using a LOD for your nano? 

  Quote:


 my logical thinking came because i have a home theatre system with a boston acoustics,onkyo setup and the sound is amazing. it's like the musicians are in my home. it's just than when i changed amps at home the sound IS improved, very noticible. not so with portable amps! i was very shocked that none of the BIG name headphones were really better, i would not have swapped any of em for my pk2 or 3! 
 something that suprised me even more is that there were home rigs there and i still wouldn't swap! and they would have cost 2-3 thousand. i never tried iem's. 
 

OMG??? but sure mate, i'm not going to try and convince you to change from a setup you already love; thats great that you are satisfied with what you have. I do have to wonder though when you say that you wouldn't swap your PK2 for a top line AT, SENN, ULTRASONE especially if portability isn't an issue.


  Quote:


 as far as people thinking they can build a better sounding headphone system than a speaker system are kidding themselves! i have heard a much better home theatre system with 5 small speakers and sub plus amp intergrated with a cd/dvd player for $1800aud. 
 

 I see.... were all kidding ourselves? a whole room full of people. Its not that I think I can build a better headphone rig than a speaker rig in the same class, the 2 shouldn't even be compared IMO. its a matter of practicality in most cases; the staging and palpability of quality home speaker setups cant be beat with headphones no matter what you spend (if thats what you are after... and it seems you are); but you cant rock da house at 2am on a sunday with a speaker rig unless you want to make enemies. Plus it has been covered here already; you cant carry a decent subwoofer in your pocket. and you cant IMO build a speaker setup that competes (for detail and accuracy)with say mac pro->lavry DA10->lisa III->denon MD5000/Ultrasone ED9 for under $10000USD I dont own a high end speaker rig (only about $4500 excluding the MAC) but have heard many, a NAD CD/transport mission amp and B&W speaker setup might come close but the $$$$ involved in that are pretty serious
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 my yuins will do me just fine. the only thing is i never heard the pk1 and they need an amp, oops, what to do? if i did spend on the pk1 it would be for home and with a cheap amp. is it worth it????????? or get great iem?????? 
 

 Cheap amp = not worth it IMO unless DIY. if you are set on not using an amp the IEM's would be your best bet; although i'm confused that you didn't like any of sundays fullsize offerings. Buying great IEM's solely for home use is a little odd IMO; whatever floats your boat I guess; but you say you didn't try any on sunday???

  Quote:


 i also think that the phones that come with the ipod ain't all that bad, certainly listenable for portable use and enjoyable. 
 

OMG blasphemer
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







!!! this says something; i'll leave it at that

  Quote:


 i also think it won't be long before apple bring out a really good clean sounding device that will bring us all closer to really awesome portable sound. 
 

 I disagree; they arent really interested in the highend market (they have bose to do that for them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) the gen2 touch is already very good, for them to go any further they would be doing too much R&D and adding too much to their production costs for a very small segment of their market
  Quote:


 i just hope they focus their efforts on sound quality and not marketability. 
 

again not going to happen; they supply DAPs to the mass matket; and most of the mass market already thinks the ibuds sound just fine
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 straight from the HP out

  Quote:


 i love music it's my hobby and have been in the speaker listening game for 25 years and been to many shows and always pop in to shops for auditions. 
 

cool; then just keep loving the music
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 i don't mean to put anyone off just watch how you young fellas spend your money. 
 

thanks dad
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i'll try

  Quote:


 who would have though made in china would sound so good?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

many good companies have their products made in china these days (has been like that for a while now); they have really modernized the way they do things and quality control is not so much of a problem these days. The cheap stuff gets made mostly elsewhere in asia nowadays. its getting to a point where 'genuine made in china' will be a promotional line


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## ZephyrSapphire

So much to read...
 Gotta agree with qusp at most points.
 Most of us in the Sydney meet weren't that interested in portable amps because most of us have heard them all. The only two "portable" amps I haven't listened to prior to the meet was the Predator and the Lisa III.

 Speakers vs headphones. Let's save that war for another day. I stick to headphones because I have housemates and I enjoy listening to music late into the night as well.

 Whatever suits you, IMHO. I'll eventually upgrade to a pair of Ultrasone Edition 9's one sweet day because I love them so much after I had a go with them. But I'll settle with my PRO750's as the next best thing.


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## Covenant

My interest in portable/transportable gear is purely because space is a consideration for me, and I'd like the rig to be mobile if need be to accomodate travel.

 The Pico has turned out to be an excellent DAC, sounding at least as good to me as my old Eastsound cdp, but the amp ever so slightly dissapoints with the Ed9, at least in comparison to the Lisa 3's and Darkvoice at the meet.

 So on the search goes


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## suzuki

What do you mean we must've known what you were going to find out? thats a strange statement; are you implying that we all buy this stuff and use it for show but now you've been to a meet the game is up?. were you using a LOD for your nano? 

 quote, yes!



 OMG??? but sure mate, i'm not going to try and convince you to change from a setup you already love; thats great that you are satisfied with what you have. I do have to wonder though when you say that you wouldn't swap your PK2 for a top line AT, SENN, ULTRASONE especially if portability isn't an issue.

 quote,no. especially for the price.


 most of those favored either the highs or lows etc. more analytical than good music. some of the ultrasone was peircing in the highs. none were balanced across the "whole audio spectrum".




 I see.... were all kidding ourselves? a whole room full of people. Its not that I think I can build a better headphone rig than a speaker rig in the same class, the 2 shouldn't even be compared IMO. its a matter of practicality in most cases; the staging and palpability of quality home speaker setups cant be beat with headphones no matter what you spend (if thats what you are after... and it seems you are); but you cant rock da house at 2am on a sunday with a speaker rig unless you want to make enemies. Plus it has been covered here already; you cant carry a decent subwoofer in your pocket. and you cant IMO build a speaker setup that competes (for detail and accuracy)with say mac pro->lavry DA10->lisa III->denon MD5000/Ultrasone ED9 for under $10000USD I dont own a high end speaker rig (only about $4500 excluding the MAC) but have heard many, a NAD CD/transport mission amp and B&W speaker setup might come close but the $$$$ involved in that are pretty serious
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 quote
 like i said, if you can use speakers instead of headphones. obviously some can't?

 quote
 never said you are all kidding yourself. shouldn't mince words mate. there was someone way before you who said their headphones better their home system. 

 Cheap amp = not worth it IMO unless DIY. if you are set on not using an amp the IEM's would be your best bet; although i'm confused that you didn't like any of sundays fullsize offerings. Buying great IEM's solely for home use is a little odd IMO; whatever floats your boat I guess; but you say you didn't try any on sunday???
 quote
 no i didn't try any iem. amp for the pk1. but did not help pk2, made it worse.


 OMG blasphemer
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







!!! this says something; i'll leave it at that

 I disagree; they arent really interested in the highend market (they have bose to do that for them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) the gen2 touch is already very good, for them to go any further they would be doing too much R&D and adding too much to their production costs for a very small segment of their market


> i just hope they focus their efforts on sound quality and not marketability.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## qusp

ok if you weren't talking about us then I appologize; but there was nothing to separate that statement from the rest of your post so I drew what appears to be an incorrect conclusion. hehe; 'shouldn't mince words' have you seen what you did to my post
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sorry couldn't resist; the irony was too much.

 looks like you've saved yourself some money; at this stage at least; something more to be happy about


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## suzuki

i minced it allright, sorry man, still working out how to use the quote thing.


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## qusp

thats cool man no problem 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just thought it was funny thats all.

 and about the portable amps; my friends and most people in brisbane don't even know what a pico is, or what its for; so i'm not doing it for anyone else's benefit other than my own. each to their own though; if there's one thing that meets and their impressions threads show; its exactly how different everyones ears are.


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## manaox2

If it somehow remove artifacts from the digital files, that is a loss of detail and cutting off of the upper frequencies. No amp is going to increase quality and fix low quality compression. If it stops the transistors from clipping at the internal amplifier (a loud high-pitched noise or pop during playback) which might sound like there were artifacts in the sound though there are not, your headphones were causing too much stress on the internal amplifier. So if you want to use those headphones, you would have needed the portable amplifier.

 At the last meet I went to, many portables were represented (iQube, Pico, LISA III, TTVJ millett portable). I think only about two people looked at any of them seriously including me.


----------



## Luckyleo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you own a home rig? Are you sure you are getting the best listening experience possibly?



 Granted a good clean power source and interference reduction matters (I realize you did not mention this part, this is just informative), but an amp doesn't get rid of the distortion from unclean power or the distortion coming from interference from the internal amplifier affecting the source's quality of sound. Those problems would only be amplified. So unless the amplifier isn't powerful enough to drive your headphones, there is no need.

 Perhaps that is the case for you, but spending hundreds on an amplifier when the problem lies with the source design or headphones seems like an impractical solution. I still say get a better source or better (perhaps more proper) headphones with the money if your goal is still quality and portability at once._

 

You ask "Why don't you own a home rig? Are you sure you are getting the best listening experience possibly?". One day I will own a home rig, but things in my life are in "flux" right now and I need portability over everything else. "Am I sure I'm getting the best listening experience possible?" Absolutely positive that I'm NOT getting the best possible listening experience. However, I pretty sure that I'm getting the best possible portable experience. I believe that anyone who appreciates hi fidelity in the highest end home system would also appreciate their listening experience with my portable setup. Equal??? No. Best given the circumstances??? Yes indeed!


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## Sherwood

Your posts in this thread have all been excellent, LuckyLeo.

 I appreciate the perspective you bring us.


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## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luckyleo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You ask "Why don't you own a home rig? Are you sure you are getting the best listening experience possibly?". One day I will own a home rig, but things in my life are in "flux" right now and I need portability over everything else. "Am I sure I'm getting the best listening experience possible?" Absolutely positive that I'm NOT getting the best possible listening experience. However, I pretty sure that I'm getting the best possible portable experience. I believe that anyone who appreciates hi fidelity in the highest end home system would also appreciate their listening experience with my portable setup. Equal??? No. Best given the circumstances??? Yes indeed!_

 

Then why not use a netbook with a portable DAC instead of the iPod and a Lisa III instead of the SR-71A? Those are definitely better options than your current "portable" rig listed in your signature. No I have not heard the SR-71A but I doubt it's better than the Lisa III, IMHO.


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## jamato8

If you haven't heard it then how can you say it isn't as good? Until there is a fair amount of feedback on amps or personal experience sometimes we can presume too much, myself included.


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## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you haven't heard it then how can you say it isn't as good? Until there is a fair amount of feedback on amps or personal experience sometimes we can presume too much, myself included._

 

I have my reasons.


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## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luckyleo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You ask "Why don't you own a home rig? Are you sure you are getting the best listening experience possibly?". One day I will own a home rig, but things in my life are in "flux" right now and I need portability over everything else. "Am I sure I'm getting the best listening experience possible?" Absolutely positive that I'm NOT getting the best possible listening experience. However, I pretty sure that I'm getting the best possible portable experience. I believe that anyone who appreciates hi fidelity in the highest end home system would also appreciate their listening experience with my portable setup. Equal??? No. Best given the circumstances??? Yes indeed!_

 

Sadly, you can spend and do more even in the portable realm. Things like the iMod, capacitor docks, this thing:

HeadRoom Portable Desktop Amp @ HeadRoom - Right Between Your Ears

 Expensive RCA cables, etc.

 It can easily go to a $5000 or more rig. In my opinion, if I needed an compromise and was going transportable (why would I carry a brick for true portability), I would probably get a macbook and the apogee duet at this time. I have very little doubt that it sounds a lot better then using an SR71 and can actually even drive full size headphones. Not to mention, you'll have a computer.


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## Sherwood

I'm not sure the duet is any more capable of driving full size headphones than the SR-71


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## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure the duet is any more capable of driving full size headphones than the SR-71_

 

My mistake, it won't properly drive the HD650 to potential well, its closer to the Pico from what I can tell now. If I was looking for a real transportable rig, I guess I would get the UPPC and a PICO for quality sake (and I don't really like macintoshs). I just don't see me wanting to use it though unless I didn't have a portable source, a home source, and/or a pc already.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Covenant* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My interest in portable/transportable gear is purely because space is a consideration for me, and I'd like the rig to be mobile if need be to accomodate travel.

 The Pico has turned out to be an excellent DAC, sounding at least as good to me as my old Eastsound cdp, but the amp ever so slightly dissapoints with the Ed9, at least in comparison to the Lisa 3's and Darkvoice at the meet.

 So on the search goes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My iBasso D3 controls the bass of the Edition 9 a little better than the Pico does, but the Pico is slightly better with the D2000 and a bit better with 600ohm AKG K240M. I'm only just starting to work on my iBasso D3 review vs the other USB DAC amps I have.

 You could sell the Pico, get a D3, and use the rest of the money towards your Woo WA6 or Head-Direct EF1 or Grahm Slee NOVO for the Edition 9. Then you can use the D3 DAC to feed to desktop amp with a nice stevenkelby mini-RCA.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure the duet is any more capable of driving full size headphones than the SR-71_

 

At least the duet drives full size better than most of my portables, excepting the TTVJ portable Millet Hybrid. It's best when driving Grados like RS-1, HF-1, HP-1000 and PS-1.


----------



## Sherwood

Has an SR-71 graced your doorstep yet, Larry? I know you're pretty well versed with the rest of Ray's lineup, and I doubt the SR-71 is drastically different.

 Does the Duet, being firewire, pull more current than a USB device? I'm not totally familiar with Firewire's specs.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Don't plan to get an SR-71. Don't know about FireWire volts or ma either. Sorry. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has an SR-71 graced your doorstep yet, Larry? I know you're pretty well versed with the rest of Ray's lineup, and I doubt the SR-71 is drastically different.

 Does the Duet, being firewire, pull more current than a USB device? I'm not totally familiar with Firewire's specs._


----------



## Sherwood

You never need to apologize to me, Larry. You light up my life.


----------



## Luckyleo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You never need to apologize to me, Larry. You light up my life._

 

All you guys light-up my life too.....


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## mudbone

Hey, I am jumping in on the "I love Larry" band wagon. He has answered all of the questions I thru at him, even the lame ones. Thanks again Larry.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Aw shucks...


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## suzuki

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thats cool man no problem 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just thought it was funny thats all.

 and about the portable amps; my friends and most people in brisbane don't even know what a pico is, or what its for; so i'm not doing it for anyone else's benefit other than my own. each to their own though; if there's one thing that meets and their impressions threads show; its exactly how different everyones ears are._

 


 i spent an hour on it and still f----- it? lmao

 we are all looking for what makes us happy. i just don't like seeing people get caught up in the hype of this or that product, spend a lot of cash and sell after a couple of months and keep losing money. 

 as far as i know we have no store in sydney to walk into and listen to headphones/amps.

 don't get me wrong i very much appreciate that people can have meets and share their stuff and be nice about it too. so thank you to all who brought their stuff and let us listen, and thanks jason. i'm pretty much the kind of guy who says if he doesn't like something. gets me into trouble sometimes and i don't mean to offend anyone. i wouldn't say this is great and really think it's not! just because i like my yuins doesn't mean that everyone else should. i enjoy reading other people's opinions even if they are opposite to mine. even if they make fun of me, i learnt to laugh at myself a long time ago.
 if we all had the same hearing there would only be one great sounding headphone. i also think a lot of headphones,iem's and buds focus more on looks than sound. 

 you know i really wanted to like my allesandro out of my ipod but i preferred my pk2's and 3's. the portable amps didn't really help the sound much. changed it yes. made it bigger sounding but at the expense of detail and balance acroos the whole spectrum, almost like a steroid fuelled body builder who's only good at lifting weights but isn't really any good at being an elite athlete!

 thanks again.


----------



## WindowsX

I agree with poster. I sold SR-71a because it sounds to shabby 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Podtweaker

I have to ask. If you do feel having a portable amp in your portable rig is worthwhile & you've been following this thread, what would compel you to respond to it. I'm guilty as charged! (& kicking myself in the butt for doing so) . A portable amp either works for you or it does'nt. I don't think I need anymore information to make an informed decision( I didn't need it to begin with). Now everyone who is in agreement w/ the OPs comments should plan your own meet where you can pat yourselves on the back at your impeccable wisdom & the frugality of your portable systems. Oh, wait a minute , you don't have to do that . You're already doing that here. Have a good time, adios , chow,...etc. What did that famous announcer use to say(this a terrific movie, by the way). Good Night & Good Luck!


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sherwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has an SR-71 graced your doorstep yet, Larry? I know you're pretty well versed with the rest of Ray's lineup, and I doubt the SR-71 is drastically different.

 Does the Duet, being firewire, pull more current than a USB device? I'm not totally familiar with Firewire's specs._

 

It can provide anywhere from 8V to 30V depending on the device.

 I believe Macintosh computers typically provide 12V today:

FireWire Developer Note: FireWire Product-Specific Details

 I think most portable amps today are 9V or less from my experience (USB is 5V typically). The apogee with its breakout cable was not meant to be portable, only transportable, that was my mistake that it would drive full size headphones even with that voltage very well.

 If I have any wisdom, it was because I learned from previous mistakes, not because I had much help or advice. I hope people think about getting an amp or already own one read this thread and think about it. They do not need to agree if it doesn't fit their view as long as there is no misinformation outside of the opinion portion. I'm sure some people can learn something new from the information coming from the OP's thoughts.


----------



## qusp

cool; i'll leave you guys to it then; I do not disagree with opinions; as long as thats what they are portrayed as; which was my problem with OP to begin with. sorry to anyone for any offense; I did not want to offend, I guess I just got reactive. But I did mean what I said; my setup works for me and I reserve the right to enjoy it without being judged.

 may the audio gods smile on you for eternity


----------



## Little Bob

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WindowsX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with poster. I sold SR-71a because it sounds to shabby 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

SR-71A? They are utter crap aren't they, I'm going to ditch mine and get a FiiO E3 - I mean it's cheap so it must be great, right?

 Isn't irony wonderful.

 OK that's it - this thread is getting boring now, I'm out.


----------



## raffy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cool; i'll leave you guys to it then; I do not disagree with opinions; as long as thats what they are portrayed as; which was my problem with OP to begin with. sorry to anyone for any offense; I did not want to offend, I guess I just got reactive. But I did mean what I said; my setup works for me and I reserve the right to enjoy it without being judged.

 may the audio gods smile on you for eternity
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This is probably the best post on this thread! I guess some people just get frustrated by paying a lot of money to build a rig that ends up not pleasing them. But that's the risk you take and you just have to man up and take the loss.....


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *raffy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is probably the best post on this thread! I guess some people just get frustrated by paying a lot of money to build a rig that ends up not pleasing them. But that's the risk you take and you just have to man up and take the loss....._

 

After looking at the rig you describe in your profile, I get the feeling that you could be speaking from experience.


----------



## raffy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After looking at the rig you describe in your profile, I get the feeling that you could be speaking from experience._

 

That's a really old list in my profile but yes, I am speaking from experience. If I had to redo everything again, I'd probably go straight to a real home rig. But since I already have a decent portable rig for the road, I'll just keep it


----------



## -=Germania=-

TY guys for what is amounting to be one of the most entertaining thread of the year!

 I am in the "I have both" camp and agree that if you don't need a portable rig, then don't buy a portable rig.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *raffy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is probably the best post on this thread! I guess some people just get frustrated by paying a lot of money to build a rig that ends up not pleasing them. But that's the risk you take and you just have to man up and take the loss....._

 

ohhh shucks
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 yep a little perspective goes a long way


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *-=Germania=-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_TY guys for what is amounting to be one of the most entertaining thread of the year!

 I am in the "I have both" camp and agree that if you don't need a portable rig, then don't buy a portable rig._

 

well put and simply put


----------



## johnwmclean

I made a decision when I started this hobby, portable or home rig?
 Glad I chose the later. Great post Luminette!


----------



## nocturnalsheet

home rig is better


----------



## Luminette

Sup 

 From page 12 to page 29:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ fine with me I'm finished now_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ i'm up for that i've said my peace and responded to anything that I considered a personal affront_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sorry for the OT guys just one more and i'm done; I will go back to discussing the matter at hand. please feel free to ignore this post i'm not dsaying anything new on the subject at hand._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cool with me; I dont even know you so I dont have an issue with you; only your behavior towards me. i'm happy to get back to trying to find a solution to this problem. I dont wish to fight anymore; can we just move on?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ i am done with it now; I hope he is; I hate game players
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cool; i'll leave you guys to it then_

 

? r u dun yet


----------



## suzuki

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sup 

 From page 12 to page 29:













 ? r u dun yet_

 

your not alone luminette, he's misquoted me all over the place in my thread.
 qusp your like a bull in a china shop!


----------



## bce22

All I will say is Luminette, I am seriously loving the little iQube that you sold to me. Thanks again, I think it's great.

 Then again, I don't have the ability to have a home system. Not only do I not have the proper place in my home, I really enjoy being able to get great sounding tunes wherever and whenever I want to. I know I can get better sound if I have a good home system... I am NOT naive to that fact.

 I am sorry you feel the way you do with wasting all the cash. I hope you are able to create a system that you absolutely love and enjoy for years to come.

 I mean nothing untowards or negative at all about your thoughts/opinions so if I happen to come accross that way I truly apologize.

 Cheers,

 Brad


----------



## jp11801

After chasing the dragon for a while with portable rigs I left about a year ago. Since then it's just me my iphone and either ety 6is or shure 420s. In the end it was not worth the hassles as I have a nice home rig and when I am on the move I am either on public transport, in an airplane or in a hotel. In each the plane or subway example you can't really discern a difference or at least I can't and in the hotel a good portable might be nice but it's not worth the hassle (LOD and portable amp).
 Freedom has its advantages


----------



## bce22

see, I listen slot at the office or in my backyard or in my living room, etc. So it works out well for me. For physical activity or subways and short travel it's to much a hassel. A good dap and decent drivable phones are sufficient. Not to mention your not critically listening in those environmnts so no point in lugging crap around.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sup 

 From page 12 to page 29:


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
Sup 

 From page 12 to page 29:

 



 ? r u dun yet_

 

none of those quotes were relating to stopping posting in this thread but more related to stopping arguing about it, and instead moving forward. Of course it didn't work out that way because I kept getting direct responses to my posts. Only the last one was intended as a final post in here, just to apologize if I had offended anyone. This thread would've been much simpler and more effective if it had been a poll; then there wouldn't have been so much arguing. as is stands it just means people come in here and give their 2c and sometimes it got personal not just me either.. Zero constructive discourse has been entered into (that is conversation toward finding a better solution) there has been lots of good points from both sides but it hasn't really gone anywhere towards doing something about it. I hope that was your intention to begin with lum; I don't know??? but to me it just seemed like a firecracker designed to liven your life up a bit.

 talk about out of context quoting.

 I never intended to stop posting in here, unless it gets boring, which it has.

 suzuki ....whatever mate. I admitted that I took you the wrong way on a couple of points, and maybe I took your meaning out of context as well and I have apologized for that. but as far as the heart of the matter is concerned I stand by what I said, but also respect that you have an opinion too; I just find it confusing thats all. Thats cool though, variety is the spice of life.

 now I'm done.... was before until you posted this bull lum


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *-=Germania=-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_TY guys for what is amounting to be one of the most entertaining thread of the year!_

 

It would be _really_ entertaining if a cat tore up a portable rig.

 Have to agree with you on the portable side of things - I've only slightly gone that route. I had a HeadSix for awhile, but it didn't get much use and I traded it for something else. When I listen on the go, it's the e3c on airplanes and the RS-1 in hotel rooms, both playing straight from an iPod.

 But if portable gear makes people happy, that's great. It gets them into the hobby and contributing to this board. Those are good things.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Asr should make a comeback via this thread


----------



## Luminette

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I never intended to stop posting in here, unless it gets boring, which it has._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_now I'm done.... was before until you posted this bull lum_

 

hiz not dun yet



 Home rig has started to arrive! Infact, the only thing missing now is the DAC en route 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Die portable, die!


----------



## ilikebananafudge

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your first post (I haven't followed any of the ensuing nonsense that appears to have occurred). 

 I started getting into headphones with portable gear, and one day I realized that a home system would sound much better, and since I did most of my listening at home, I upgraded. I AM SO GLAD I UPGRADED FROM PORTABLE!

 My home system absolute demolishes my former portable system. It's frightening. 

 For portable I just use SE310s or KSC75s right out of my iPod and it sounds fine to me. 

 Luminette, I hope you have the same experience that I have!


----------



## Sherwood

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would be really entertaining if a cat tore up a portable rig._

 

Somebody might get banned


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Die portable, die!_

 

Ahhhhhhhhhhh this was a long thread but I guess the statement above summarizes it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Though I don't think portables are silly, I also don't see myself spending on it too much since with my experience with my HD650 vs er4s, the senn gets more headtime because it's much more comfortable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also waiting for my desktop amp


----------



## Anacondastan

I have been into high-end audio since the early 90's my first piece of great gear was a Mod Squad CDP which was simply a modded Magnovox player. The Mod Squad died off and Steve McCormack formed his own company called "McCormack. Anyhoo...in the mean time I have owned home audio equipment by, but not limited to: Mark Levinson, VPI, Meridian, Quad, Thorens, California Audio Labs, Krell, ProAc, Mission, Kenergetic Research, Melos, Wilson Audio, Esoteric Audio, Grado Labs, Kimber Kable, Straightwire etc... In addition I have owned high end car audio from: Focal, Seas, Polk, Pioneer Premier, MB Quart, DLS, Planet Audio (old school) etc... I can honestly say that I have been able to achieve sonic bliss in all 3 venues. My Corda Move, iRiver H340, silver/copper mini-to-mini, re-cabled silver UE Triple fi.10 with black olives share all of the same touchstones that any of my home or car rigs had. I have heard music so excellent in a car I did not want to get out of it, so good in the sweet spot on the couch I did not want to move from it. And sometimes the music from this modest rig is so darn earlicious I can't put it down. 

 Great sound is not relegated to one arena it can be had in any if you apply good common sense and follow the rule of your ears are always more important than the next guy's.


----------



## knights

cool down guys... portables are there for a purpose... having ipod and portable amp is as good what it gets because my brain keeps tellin me that its the better way
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.... when i got home, i just use my laptop + boa and eh-350 in my room and im satisfied... when i really want to enjoy music as typical human, my speakers are there to serve me...LOL.. i ddnt regret my buys even when i bought those crappy china headphones and dap before, because somehow they made me happy that time... its all about preference and lets respects each of our opinions...


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *knights* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_cool down guys... its all about preference and lets respects each of our opinions..._

 

No need, no one had posted before last night in nearly three weeks. 

 If the two bumpers had read the huge thread, you would have realized that no one was arguing against listening to music on the go. The issue was having a large rig consisting of expensive amplifiers and interconnects being called a portable and whether the increase in sound is really worth the money and hassle of carrying.

 This isn't a thread to brag about your rig, please read the thread and get some info before replying to something specific said or let the thread die in peace.


----------



## Eagle_Driver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If the two bumpers had read the huge thread, you would have realized that no one was arguing against listening to music on the go. The issue was having a large rig consisting of expensive amplifiers and interconnects being called a portable and whether the increase in sound is really worth the money and hassle of carrying.

 This isn't a thread to brag about your rig, please read the thread and get some info before replying to something specific said or let the thread die in peace._

 

Agreed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Portable listening can sound great without the addition of extra circuitry (e.g. large, expensive amps) and bulky cables. The point that I'm making (or contributing) to this thread is that the sound quality from a portable player _might_ be better with extra amps and exotic cables, but the gross increase in size and weight is definitely far greater than the sound quality benefit. And the only reason why I continued to use a pricey amp on my portable CD players is that those late-model PCDPs as a group did not have enough power by themselves to drive even cheap stock earbuds (iBuds? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), let alone big full-sized Sennheisers or AKGs, to satisfying levels - too weak overall for the big 'phones, severely rolled-off lows and highs at the headphone-out jack with earbuds (not to mention the natural lack of extension on both ends of the audible frequency range from the cheap earbuds themselves).


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Eagle_Driver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agreed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Portable listening can sound great without the addition of extra circuitry (e.g. large, expensive amps) and bulky cables. The point that I'm making (or contributing) to this thread is that the sound quality from a portable player might be better with extra amps and exotic cables, but the gross increase in size and weight is definitely far greater than the sound quality benefit. And the only reason why I continued to use a pricey amp on my portable CD players is that those late-model PCDPs as a group did not have enough power by themselves to drive even cheap stock earbuds (iBuds? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), let alone big full-sized Sennheisers or AKGs, to satisfying levels - too weak overall for the big 'phones, severely rolled-off lows and highs at the headphone-out jack with earbuds (not to mention the natural lack of extension on both ends of the audible frequency range from the cheap earbuds themselves)._

 

A lot, maybe most, PCDP had powerful amplifiers capable of driving portable phones. While the portable amplifier can get the volume up on something like the HD650 and K701, no portable amplifier with less then 18V I have heard of can get close to properly driving them.


----------



## Podtweaker

The thing that I don't understand is why so many people are so enthralled with this thread. I guess that is what happens when you join a discussion many pages in. The truth of the matter is "worth" is a subjective value. You either find value in something or you don't. When someone talks about whether something is "worth the hassle" it should be pretty obvious that the terminology used has already answered the question. It's OK to think that spending extra to build an expensive portable rig is silly, & it is also OK to think that it's very worthwhile . Everyone is their own "end user". Is it really that important to you that others don't have the same value system that you do? To worry about that is...(what's the word I was looking for?)(oh yeah) silly! Now if we could start a thread about all the posters who seem to have ADD that would be great!


----------



## SierraHotel01

I remember the days when we called a Headroom Cosmic amp + D-cell battery packs, in a shoulder strap bag, feeding full size cans - PORTABLE!

 Thanks to iPods + amps like Ray's Hornet, Tomahawk, Predator, and now Mustang, and IEMs like SE530's, I feel it's safe to say:
 "We've come a long way, baby."

 Options are good (including portable options) no? - each of us gets to choose whether each option fits our ears and our lifestyle.


----------



## cotdt

Hi fellow Head-fiers,
 I have a proposal. It is actually an idea inspired by the OP. You see, in the For Sale Forum, I have been trying to sell a portable amp I've built for the longest time, but thanks to this thread, nobody wants to buy my amp: :sadface:











 There is a better solution. I propose that people who have posted in this thread each donate $5 to me. Once I collect the amount that I was originally selling the amp for ($125), I will SMASH THE PORTABLE AMP WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER LIVE! ON VIDEO! The time will be posted and everyone on this forum will be able to tune in to the live video stream, which will subsequently be archived onto YouTube. PM me for my Paypal info.

 Thanks all,
 CoTDT


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is a better solution. I propose that people who have posted in this thread each donate $5 to me. Once I collect the amount that I was originally selling the amp for ($125), I will SMASH THE PORTABLE AMP WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER LIVE! ON VIDEO! The time will be posted and everyone on this forum will be able to tune in to the live video stream, which will subsequently be archived onto YouTube. PM me for my Paypal info._

 

How about a raffle for $5 per ticket and you donate the proceeds to Head-Fi? I'll buy a ticket and, should I win, I'll do a giveaway. I'm not at all into portable gear, but I'd like to see your amp go to someone who'd use it.


----------



## jamato8

I'll give you a couple of bucks for the volume control. I really like the ones with the rubber grip. :^)

 The amp looks very nice. If it sounds half way good I am not sure why it hasn't sold. . . . oh you cited this thread. . . . sorry. . . . but not all agree. . . . .


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I'm one of the peeps who voted in favor or portable amps for specific purposes, just they're not always convenient 100% of the time nor as good as many desktop amps for the same price. The old adage, the smaller it is the more it costs, is in place here.

 I'd rather see you keep it or wait for it to sell than smash it.


----------



## mrarroyo

That is a very nice looking amp. The idea of a raffle would a good one, perhaps w/ a twist. Tickets are $5 and money over $125 would be donated to Head-Fi. That way you cotdt can recoup your costs.


----------



## qusp

that would be a shame to see your amp be smashed as a form of modern performance art. I've been arguing *for* the use of portable amps on here quite vehemently, so I dont think I should pay for that reason. But I will happily donate $5 to see it go to a good home. people just need realistic expectations of their portable gear thats all. they have their place and one of those places is in my pocket or bag with the VCAP. I love it and thats all i'm saying on the matter.


----------



## Trav

LMAO excellent post, i agree with the sillyness and strongly agree with keeping the whole portable thing in check. I just bought a lil $50 BSG and love it...does it come near my "Maggies" and my McIntosh amp....uh not even close...does it make a 4 hour plane ride more enjoyable....without question. I believe many here like myself are someone new to portable headfi but long in the tooth to home audiophile setups. Nice post again.


----------



## cotdt

Thanks everyone who encouraged me not to destroy the amp as performance art. It finally sold and will be happy in its new home.


----------



## Luminette

destroy the singlepower


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks everyone who encouraged me not to destroy the amp as performance art. It finally sold and will be happy in its new home._

 

You are welcome. On some other forums they would have paid you to actually shoot the cat in your avatar (pointed gun raised hands, er... paws).


----------



## charliex

Why does my portable rig keep getting less and less portable - gettin to be a challenge lugging around the 80gb iMod with a new DAC and LD tube amp ----


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *charliex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why does my portable rig keep getting less and less portable - gettin to be a challenge lugging around the 80gb iMod with a new DAC and LD tube amp ----_

 

What do you mean by a DAC? You can not use an external DAC w/ an iModded iPod.


----------



## Bojamijams

Thing is, a portable rig (imod+amp+good open fullsize) has its use.

 Sure its not the ultra portable wear in your pocket type, but I can do that with my imod just using the headphone jack when I don't want to lug the amp around)

 So what is that use?

 Work!

 If you work in an office and are not TOO close to someone (otherwise you'll have to do with closed cans) the 'less then portable' portable setup is a godsend. I can bring it in a bag, set it up on the table, plug in the AC adapator to my 3MOVE and I got a non-exhaustible 12v PS to a better then any sound card DAC and amp, with beauty sound at the end.


----------



## Bojamijams

I think the word 'tube' can not in any way be used with the word portable.. its practically an oxymoron


----------



## dfkt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bojamijams* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the word 'tube' can not in any way be used with the word portable.. its practically an oxymoron 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

TTVJ Millett Hybrid Amp - $459.00 : TTVJ, Todd The Vinyl Junkie


----------



## Bojamijams

....

 I stand corrected.


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Hey OP, THANKS FOR THE GREAT READ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm definitely sharing this with my portable-audiophiles 'gang', heh heh heh.

 Great wit, information, and a pinch of hidden humour, all at once.
 <3

 Though IMO even if it's not super bang-for-buck for portable hi-fi, I still will say that improvement is clearly discernable. Though I'll like to agree that LODs are overpriced some - but hay, I'm sure they spent quite some effort on their making. And I'm sure they're not out to rip us all of our moneh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not all of them anyway.


----------



## chesterqw

woah...





 upgraditis have hit you hard this time.
 try to not mortgage your home for it kay?


----------



## Currawong

Hmm, I just plugged my ED9s into my Corda Move + iPod....great synergy! I live in Japan, so taking such a rig out of the house might not be so insane as it would be in other countries.


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm, I just plugged my ED9s into my Corda Move + iPod....great synergy! I live in Japan, so taking such a rig out of the house might not be so insane as it would be in other countries._

 

Why's that so? o_o


----------



## paulybatz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why's that so? o_o_

 

I am curious too...my guess is either the weather or crime rate???


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think most people find this stuff out sooner or later. If you really need an amp for portability, either your PDAP is likely not cutting it or your using the wrong headphone. 

 Its not that I do not agree that the iQube and PICO $500 truly portable amp make portable devices sound better, but there is no way that those portable headphones you use on average should need an additional $500 device in the middle to sound good, and $500 is many more times more effective at increasing quality for something like the HD600 or HD650 full sized headphones when spent on a good full-sized piece of equipment. 

 I fully believe a good portable cd player can rival the iMod. There really seems to be no such thing as anything close to being high-end in the portable arena, but I will bet good money that a simple 1st generation shuffle and UE11 IEM will blow any other similarly priced rig out of the water and into a different category. Get a decent DAP, a quality IEM or decent portable headphones, and skip the middle stuff in favor for something at home. Its just better, honestly._

 

I do not think using a full-sized headphone with a DAP will render it 'portable' - if anything it's the other way round.

 As for  Quote:


 but there is no way that those portable headphones you use on average should need an additional $500 device in the middle to sound good 
 

, the "$500 device" does not make the DAP-'phones combo sound good, it makes it sounds *better*. And even if you bought something like an Orpheus, a good mid-level amp would still show significant improvement on SQ, or on something an audiophile would particular need (e.g. bass)

 Also, while a CD player would be the best thing for sound quality, do take note that you're not going to carry your whole collection of CDs in your backpack to swap when you're done with 12 songs in one CD - it's simply impractical. DAPs are there to maximise space via virtual memory.

 I apologise if I sound crass on this reply, but I find that, while your argument holds its own well, it's simply...too opinionated. Full of assumptions and some conjectures on your part, if I may boldly say so.

 Not to mention, that you haven't even started factoring in the fact that everyone's needs are different.
 In portable hi-fi, people who have such a set-up are most likely people who spend a significant, if not a great deal amount of time, commuting. Our immediate goal, would be to have superb music on-the-fly. We can't drive a motorcycle or a car around with our home hi-fi set-up, now can we?

 There would be some people who prefer porta-audio (assumed to be hassle-free), some who prefer quality of home hi-fi, yet some want the best of both worlds. To immediately cast down all of portable hi-fi's advantages with just cost and SQ issues - will not work.

 Also, for my share of pro-porta-audio comments, if you have a typical "DAP---->LOD/IC----->Porta-amp----->Cans/IEM" set-up, a pouch, a small bag, or the Hippocase Ampsack would all do the job just fine. I for one, never found holding my AmpSack tedious.

 For the benefit of the argument, I quote wavoman, and I agree with this part. If you like porta-audio, you'd protect it proper, make it more of a portability, than a liability. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wavoman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_3. A Predator (or Pico) and an i7 (or similar), cabled with an IC and lashed with velcro, fit in the tiny soft camera cases sold everywhere and easily fit in a pocket, ready to play. I leave them both on, set to shuffle, and simply hit play, re-zip the case with the HP cable just sticking out where the zipper closes. No sharp corners, and I can do this while the treadmill is moving. No exposed metal, no problem not being seated. You're not trying hard enough._


----------



## Currawong

The $500 portable amps have USB DACs built in. The Pico without the DAC is $329 or something like it IIRC. So, for your $500, you're getting quite a bit of gear which can be used in a multitude of ways, USB DAC for a full-sized amp, portable amp, computer amp/DAC when traveling or amp with an iPod when you want better SQ or drive full-sized cans from it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paulybatz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am curious too...my guess is either the weather or crime rate???_

 

Yes, the crime rate. Train ads hang from the carriage ceiling and are never damaged for example, such is the standard of behaviour here. Since I get stared at being a foreigner, I could easily go out with full-sized cans on and it would be much the same. I was mainly thinking of taking the UE9s with me for long train trips. I can't think of anything better than sitting in a bullet train at 300kmh while listening to music when I visit Tokyo.


----------



## slwiser

I am very much enjoying my Sansa Fuse, Nuforce Icon Mobile and the ATH-ESW10JPN. Very diminutive in size and configuration but very big is sound quality. 

 I have had other configurations but nothing this small with this sound quality. 

 I have yet to plug the Icon Mobile into my computer USB to hear how this sounds but the analog in from the Fuse is just fine to me.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am very much enjoying my Sansa Fuse, Nuforce Icon Mobile and the ATH-ESW10JPN. Very diminutive in size and configuration but very big is sound quality. 

 I have had other configurations but nothing this small with this sound quality. 

 I have yet to plug the Icon Mobile into my computer USB to hear how this sounds but the analog in from the Fuse is just fine to me._

 

Yep, the Nuforce with a Nano and ESW10 or W3 is pretty portable and nice sounding, but so is the iPhone 3G with Westone 3 and no amp... I'm taking both rigs to Hawaii with me next week...


----------



## qusp

is this thread still going?? it could be the same post as last time I read it. why do people persist in comparing apples to oranges


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is this thread still going?? it could be the same post as last time I read it. why do people persist in comparing apples to oranges_

 

What?


----------



## qusp

I guess you aren't familiar with the phrase. what I mean is comparing portable amps to home amps is pointless; because generally someone who buys a portable amp has done so because they needed something to make their PORTABLE listening experience better. So telling them to save their money and buy a home system is stoopid IMO. this thread has actually gone down hill; if that was possible. its still covering the same old ground as when it started and still making the same irrelevant points home amps = better because of being bigger. portable amps still fantastic because they are smaller/ portable. it is very easy to rig up a satchel or other case to sling over your shoulder. and some can still fit comfortably in your pocket. but the two things only thing is common are that they are amps. thats it. people use them for entirely different purposes. its all in the eye/ear of the beholder. but PCDP's are hardly a viable alternative manox. you think amps are impractical, try carrying your whole music collection with you in your bag.


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess you aren't familiar with the phrase. what I mean is comparing portable amps to home amps is pointless; because generally someone who buys a portable amp has done so because they needed something to make their PORTABLE listening experience better. So telling them to save their money and buy a home system is stoopid IMO. this thread has actually gone down hill; if that was possible. its still covering the same old ground as when it started and still making the same irrelevant points home amps = better because of being bigger. portable amps still fantastic because they are smaller/ portable. it is very easy to rig up a satchel or other case to sling over your shoulder. and some can still fit comfortably in your pocket. but the two things only thing is common are that they are amps. thats it. people use them for entirely different purposes. its all in the eye/ear of the beholder. but PCDP's are hardly a viable alternative manox. you think amps are impractical, try carrying your whole music collection with you in your bag._

 

No, I know how to use the phrase "compare apples with oranges", but I did not get what you *exactly* meant.

 And haha, I agree with your last point - the reason why I replied to him in detail in the first place. While OP's point I can understand and make sense of, in that our portable stuff should improve rather than go downhill (like what iPod is doing with our favourite DAP), to use a PCDP is ridiculous.

 That idea would be nice when DAPs did not exist, but now, the idea is ludicrous. Not to mention, that an iPod with 30GB can easily hold about say, 60 CDs' worth of music, assuming 500MB worth of lossless from one CD.

 Is lugging one small pouch/AmpSack better, or lugging 66cm in length worth of CDs?


----------



## raffy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess you aren't familiar with the phrase. what I mean is comparing portable amps to home amps is pointless; because generally someone who buys a portable amp has done so because they needed something to make their PORTABLE listening experience better. So telling them to save their money and buy a home system is stoopid IMO. this thread has actually gone down hill; if that was possible. its still covering the same old ground as when it started and still making the same irrelevant points home amps = better because of being bigger. portable amps still fantastic because they are smaller/ portable. it is very easy to rig up a satchel or other case to sling over your shoulder. and some can still fit comfortably in your pocket. but the two things only thing is common are that they are amps. thats it. people use them for entirely different purposes. its all in the eye/ear of the beholder. but PCDP's are hardly a viable alternative manox. you think amps are impractical, try carrying your whole music collection with you in your bag._

 

I guess the reason why this thread went downhill is due to the fact that people here insisted on arguing "for X amount of dollars, I'd rather this this......" 

 I do agree that portable hi-fi provides a much smaller bang for the buck than home hi-fi but there is indeed still some people out there who are good candidates for portable hi-fi. Question is, do you want to spend the money for a relatively small increase in SQ (compared to home hi-fi)? Only the end user can answer this question. 

 I guess all the sourness against portable hi-fi stemmed from the fact that people spend a ton on money on their portable setups only to be underwhelmed because of high expectations based on the amount of money spent. People think "I spend $X and it doesn't sound like it's worth $X". For me this is on of the cold hard realities of this hobby, you try something, spend a good amount of money on it, if it makes you happy, good for you; if it doesn't that blows but you really don't have any choice but to suck it up and charge it to experience. I'm not a big fan of crying about a purchase and trying to find someone to blame just becuase you are not fully satisfied. If you're not happy, return it (if the manufacturer has a return policy), keep it or sell it.

 Don't get me wrong, I'm not an advocate of portable hi-fi. I have a portable setup which I think is not worth what I spent on it (not that it's bad, it's just too expensive for what it is) but now that I already have it, might as well just enjoy it for what it brings to the table.


----------



## qusp

anything smaller costs more... technology more. my point is. have reasonable expectations of what your gear can offer you and dont spend what you cant afford to lose. simple as that. my portable rig cost me a small fortune; and I made a lot of the expensive stuff myself. but I knew what to expect. i know that with the power supplies involved and the space constraints for caps; volume pots, etc etfc. you are not likely to compete with a home setup costing the same. although with mine I probably get pretty close because I made it. one day it might happen; but for now we just have to get as close as we can and stop whining about it and just enjoy what you have.


----------



## qusp

anything smaller costs more... technology wise. my point is. have reasonable expectations of what your gear can offer you and dont spend what you cant afford to lose. simple as that. my portable rig cost me a small fortune; and I made a lot of the expensive stuff myself. but I knew what to expect. i know that with the power supplies involved and the space constraints for caps; volume pots, etc etfc. you are not likely to compete with a home setup costing the same. although with mine I probably get pretty close because I made it. one day it might happen; but for now we just have to get as close as we can and stop whining about it and just enjoy what you have.


----------



## Nocturnal310

ya its same like Desktop v/s Laptop debate on Notebookreview.com forums.


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *raffy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess the reason why this thread went downhill is due to the fact that people here insisted on arguing "for X amount of dollars, I'd rather this this......" 

 I do agree that portable hi-fi provides a much smaller bang for the buck than home hi-fi but there is indeed still some people out there who are good candidates for portable hi-fi. Question is, do you want to spend the money for a relatively small increase in SQ (compared to home hi-fi)? Only the end user can answer this question. 

 I guess all the sourness against portable hi-fi stemmed from the fact that people spend a ton on money on their portable setups only to be underwhelmed because of high expectations based on the amount of money spent. People think "I spend $X and it doesn't sound like it's worth $X". For me this is on of the cold hard realities of this hobby, you try something, spend a good amount of money on it, if it makes you happy, good for you; if it doesn't that blows but you really don't have any choice but to suck it up and charge it to experience. I'm not a big fan of crying about a purchase and trying to find someone to blame just becuase you are not fully satisfied. If you're not happy, return it (if the manufacturer has a return policy), keep it or sell it.

 Don't get me wrong, I'm not an advocate of portable hi-fi. I have a portable setup which I think is not worth what I spent on it (not that it's bad, it's just too expensive for what it is) but now that I already have it, might as well just enjoy it for what it brings to the table._

 

Your post, esp the first point, holds very true.

 Personally for me, porta-hifi works because

 1)I don't own my own house - plus I don't have space left in my room - for anything remotely resembling a tube amp.

 2)I like on-the-fly things - to whip out something the moment I want it. Snap my fingers, and it's out. Not taking 5 minutes to set-up like I do with my laptop and power supply.

 And that's why porta-hifi appeals to me. Why does it to you?


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anything smaller costs more... technology wise. my point is. have reasonable expectations of what your gear can offer you and dont spend what you cant afford to lose. simple as that. my portable rig cost me a small fortune; and I made a lot of the expensive stuff myself. but I knew what to expect. i know that with the power supplies involved and the space constraints for caps; volume pots, etc etfc. you are not likely to compete with a home setup costing the same. although with mine I probably get pretty close because I made it. one day it might happen; but for now we just have to get as close as we can and stop whining about it and just enjoy what you have._

 

Smaller does not mean more expensive. Price out transformers and compare them to a 9-volt battery. A single quality capacitor can cost more than all the parts inside a portable.

 Also, a lot of people seem to miss the point. That is that portable amps, various expensive cables and bits, etc. are unnecessary. A quality IEM, straight from an unmodded iPod, sounds really good. All the other stuff is, in my opinion, unnecessary. Further, the ancillary stuff does *not* make full-sized headphones sound good. In my experience, they sound awful on portable gear.

 So, to many of us, there is zero point in buying portable gear. If youhave to go portable, buy the DAP you like and the best IEMs you can afford. That's it. Anything more is a pointless waste that would be better spent on a home rig or put into your 401(k).


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Your last point hovers dangerously on the point of assumption. Most people who went for "portable rig upgrades" did so because they could hear a marked improvement, in the first place.

 As for me, I am definitely going for the Graham Slee Voyager, or something similiar. And I am not getting home set-ups anytime soon due to space constrain, and that I don't own my house - my mother would destroy any tube amps I ever bought, anyway.

 Oh well, most comments here on portable-home shootout are really, more or less "IMOs" anyway.

 If, just if - all those portable amplifiers did nothing to improve the sound coming out of a Westone 3 or ACS T1 - then Ray Samuels and Dr Xin would be long bankrupt.


----------



## Aimless1

I pretty much agree with Uncle Erik. I personally found portable amps insufficient to adequately drive full size headphones. I also found them very inconvenient to use. 

 Now, do they really help with SQ? Yes, BUT the gains have been marginal at best. I found the hassle of another piece of equipment coupled with more cables to not be worth the additional "gains" in SQ.

 YMMV


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If, just if - all those portable amplifiers did nothing to improve the sound coming out of a Westone 3 or ACS T1 - then Ray Samuels and Dr Xin would be long bankrupt._

 

This is like saying that jewelry improves your health. Jewelry can make you feel good, possibly happier, but a gold necklace won't fix a broken arm. And some products, like jewelry, mostly exist as a means of income for the manufacturer. They usually fill a perceived need, one often whipped up by marketing and hype. Portables are marketed as the "entry" point, so the "OMGLULZ it sounds great!!!1!!1" comments are from virgins lecturing people about sex.

 I don't assume when I tell you that a full-sized Sennheiser or AKG sounds flat and lifeless from a portable. You can put the output on an oscilloscope and look at it. It's like trying to pull a railcar with a bicycle. So why spend $500 on a bicycle when you really need a locomotive? Similarly, IEMs are easily driven by an iPod. You can use more power, pointlessly. That is like hiring a dump truck to move a shovel full of dirt. You could, and it would certainly impress some folks, but in the end, you'd just be moving a shovel full of dirt.

 So I should spend $500 on something that:
 1. Does not work with most of my headphones; and
 2. Isn't necessary for the rest.

 Why?

 If you don't have room for a home rig, that's fine. You can get excellent sound with just an iPod and IEMs. That's it, that's all you need. Everything else you can put in the bank.


----------



## Rednamalas1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is like saying that jewelry improves your health. Jewelry can make you feel good, possibly happier, but a gold necklace won't fix a broken arm. And some products, like jewelry, mostly exist as a means of income for the manufacturer. They usually fill a perceived need, one often whipped up by marketing and hype.

 I don't assume when I tell you that a full-sized Sennheiser or AKG sounds flat and lifeless from a portable. You can put the output on an oscilloscope and look at it. * It's like trying to pull a railcar with a bicycle*. So why spend $500 on a bicycle when you really need a locomotive? Similarly, IEMs are easily driven by an iPod. *You can use more power, pointlessly. That is like hiring a dump truck to move a shovel full of dirt*. You could, and it would certainly impress some folks, but in the end, you'd just be moving a shovel full of dirt.

 So I should spend $500 on something that:
 1. Does not work with most of my headphones; and
 2. Isn't necessary for the rest.

 Why?

 If you don't have room for a home rig, that's fine. You can get excellent sound with just an iPod and IEMs. That's it, that's all you need. Everything else you can put in the bank._

 

I think that paragraph sums it up. 

 SQ improvements provided by portable amps, are in fact, marginal compared to good home amps such as Gilmore Lite/Dynalo. The only case where I can see portable amp being used (such as pico + DAC) is in tranportable setup with your laptop. imod+Vcap+amp to drive Triple Fis are not very portable.

 I for one, have now ditched portable amps altogether, because I was quite underwhelmed with SQ increase that my portable amp could provide. And frankly, I don't miss it at all.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do not think using a full-sized headphone with a DAP will render it 'portable' - if anything it's the other way round._

 

I was referring solely to the HD650 and HD600's scalability with desktop rigs in contrast to portable earphones which do not require the amplification, not advocating using full sized headphones with a portable rig.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for , the "$500 device" does not make the DAP-'phones combo sound good, it makes it sounds *better*. And even if you bought something like an Orpheus, a good mid-level amp would still show significant improvement on SQ, or on something an audiophile would particular need (e.g. bass)_

 

I never argued that an amp can not help sound quality. "Significant improvement" is very subjective from person to person, to me the only case where an amp showed a possible significant improvement would be the 5th gen ipod/imod or earlier in the bass department. My experience has been that a high gain portable amp often hurt the bass quality on IEMs. 

 While an Orpheus also seems like it would not be a value in itself for me and more like something a gadget person would want to collect, If an audiophile truly reached the best of the world in home audio for themselves, they fully deserve to spend the minuscule amount a portable rig would cost in comparison. I doubt they would be very satisfied with even the best portable rig equipment in existence. I don't consider myself an audiophile and even I thought my portable rig sounded mediocre in comparison to desktop rigs I heard at a third of the cost. I think the sad truth is that the overwhelming majority of us cannot afford the "best of both worlds".

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, while a CD player would be the best thing for sound quality, do take note that you're not going to carry your whole collection of CDs in your backpack to swap when you're done with 12 songs in one CD - it's simply impractical. DAPs are there to maximise space via virtual memory._

 

I would also not recommend going that route, but if you need a backpack or camera bag to carry your rig anyway... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I apologise if I sound crass on this reply, but I find that, while your argument holds its own well, it's simply...too opinionated. Full of assumptions and some conjectures on your part, if I may boldly say so._

 

While I am opinionated, I do not think I am belligerent. This is a rational argument based on observation and experience. If you listened to the argument and feel like you would rather have the large expensive portable rig, then please get one. Your feelings very well may influence how you perceive the sound.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not to mention, that you haven't even started factoring in the fact that everyone's needs are different.
 In portable hi-fi, people who have such a set-up are most likely people who spend a significant, if not a great deal amount of time, commuting. Our immediate goal, would be to have superb music on-the-fly. We can't drive a motorcycle or a car around with our home hi-fi set-up, now can we?_

 

While I would like to believe that most people with these rigs spend a ton of time commuting, I would have trouble believing that. Even if that is true, it does not make sense in my mind to spend $500 on an amp, $175 on cables and $150 on capacitors to patch up the downfalls of a $200 player being paired with $300 headphones. It will help to some effect, but it also effectively makes it more of a hassle to place in the cramped quarters and suspicious on a plane to say the least, although I am sure that does not bother all people. 

 As for cases where the listener is not a passenger, it is illegal to use headphones while driving a vehicle in the United States. For me, that is what speakers are for. Rather then fumbling with knobs and changing songs with one hand on your handlebars or steering wheel, I'm sure it would be a better idea for you and those around you if you kept your eyes and mind on the road rather then on the music.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There would be some people who prefer porta-audio (assumed to be hassle-free), some who prefer quality of home hi-fi, yet some want the best of both worlds. To immediately cast down all of portable hi-fi's advantages with just cost and SQ issues - will not work.

 Also, for my share of pro-porta-audio comments, if you have a typical "DAP---->LOD/IC----->Porta-amp----->Cans/IEM" set-up, a pouch, a small bag, or the Hippocase Ampsack would all do the job just fine. I for one, never found holding my AmpSack tedious.

 For the benefit of the argument, I quote wavoman, and I agree with this part. If you like porta-audio, you'd protect it proper, make it more of a portability, than a liability._

 

Even if that issue does not bother you personally, I still say it does not discount the cost vs. value issue here; because it works in some situations does not really make a large difference. That to me is not the kind of place or gear a true audiophile should probably be spending the majority of their listening time, so why take away funds from the rig they would receive greater pleasure from that is located in a relaxing spot which can hopefully be found privately at home?

 EDIT: Uncle Eric has a great point that now is probably not the time for unnecessary extravagant spending. Audio isn't everything, for me personally, having privacy and reasonable assurance that my basic needs are met is more important then improving my audio rig. In that sense, I'm lucky that I don't have a wife and kids to support currently, I would have to wait for Christmas if I wanted anything new.


----------



## Wiggy Fuzz

i never left home without my grado sr80's and cmoy amp back in the days, and i'll never leave home without my grado sr325i's (when i get the mini adapter), and my ibasso D2 (the only thing stopping me is me clicking the "buy" button).

 i just prefer having speakers attached to my ears via a headband, means i don't have to spend so much on speakers and a dedicated amp i'll only get the best out of in one room, on my sofa.

 i even went as far as bmxing in my grado sr80's and amp. i'll probably be a bit more careful with my new ones, though


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.... That is that portable amps, various expensive cables and bits, etc. are unnecessary. A quality IEM, straight from an unmodded iPod, sounds really good. All the other stuff is, in my opinion, unnecessary. Further, the ancillary stuff does *not* make full-sized headphones sound good. In my experience, they sound awful on portable gear.

 So, to many of us, there is zero point in buying portable gear. If youhave to go portable, buy the DAP you like and the best IEMs you can afford. That's it. Anything more is a pointless waste that would be better spent on a home rig or put into your 401(k)._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Aimless1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... I personally found portable amps insufficient to adequately drive full size headphones... Yes, BUT the gains have been marginal at best. I found the hassle of another piece of equipment coupled with more cables to not be worth the additional "gains" in SQ.

 YMMV_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..., so the "OMGLULZ it sounds great!!!1!!1" comments are from virgins lecturing people about sex.

 I don't assume when I tell you that a full-sized Sennheiser or AKG sounds flat and lifeless from a portable. ..._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rednamalas1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think that paragraph sums it up. 

 SQ improvements provided by portable amps, are in fact, marginal compared to good home amps such as Gilmore Lite/Dynalo. ...I for one, have now ditched portable amps altogether, because I was quite underwhelmed with SQ increase that my portable amp could provide. And frankly, I don't miss it at all._

 

Well you are all more than entitled to your opinions. I totally and absolutely disagree. I find the opposite in that my OK1, PROline 2500, HFI-780, Ety ER4S, etc. all sound significantly better via the use of a DAP, line out, and amp. Everyday I carry my bag w/ my dap, line out, a portable amp, and at least 2 to 3 cans to my office. I am happy as a pig in mud! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not everyone likes chocolate.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I am happy as a pig in mud! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*Not everyone likes chocolate.*_

 

Or mud!


----------



## Brighten

This thread is getting intense!


----------



## hypoicon

I have been reading this thread with great bemusement, and am in agreement with the original poster on the relative value/quality of outlandish portable set-ups. I think that everyone needs to consider that most value judgments in audio are psychological in nature, and what is "worth it" is indisputably an individual choice. The vehemence of the portable crowd is perhaps the clearest indicator of the ultimate absurdity of this debate. I mean, does it really matter if someone doesn't share your values-- enough to debate it in a circular fashion for months?

 One of the more interesting perspectives on such epicurean debates I've seen in a while is this 15 minute presentation on TED. Though the worst cost/value issues discussed come from gourmets and winos, the general dichotomy is also relevant to audio. 

 The closing bit of information is priceless-- people (according to brain scan data) enjoy wine that has bigger price tags more than smaller price tags. It isn't just about taste-- it's about the satisfaction of spending wild amounts of money on inconsequential things.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is like saying that jewelry improves your health. Jewelry can make you feel good, possibly happier, but a gold necklace won't fix a broken arm. And some products, like jewelry, mostly exist as a means of income for the manufacturer. They usually fill a perceived need, one often whipped up by marketing and hype. Portables are marketed as the "entry" point, so the "OMGLULZ it sounds great!!!1!!1" comments are from virgins lecturing people about sex.

 I don't assume when I tell you that a full-sized Sennheiser or AKG sounds flat and lifeless from a portable. You can put the output on an oscilloscope and look at it. It's like trying to pull a railcar with a bicycle. So why spend $500 on a bicycle when you really need a locomotive? Similarly, IEMs are easily driven by an iPod. You can use more power, pointlessly. That is like hiring a dump truck to move a shovel full of dirt. You could, and it would certainly impress some folks, but in the end, you'd just be moving a shovel full of dirt.

 So I should spend $500 on something that:
 1. Does not work with most of my headphones; and
 2. Isn't necessary for the rest.

 Why?

 If you don't have room for a home rig, that's fine. You can get excellent sound with just an iPod and IEMs. That's it, that's all you need. Everything else you can put in the bank._

 

crap.

 lisa III drives full size headphones marvelously. again with the comparisons to home amps; get it through your head. people buy portable amps because they find it makes an improvement to their *[size=medium]PORTABLE[/size]* yes *[size=medium]PORTABLE[/size]* listening experience. and there are only a few daps that drive quality IEM's even close to their potential. some are too sensitive and give hiss (removed by a portable amp) some are more difficult to drive (also improved with a portable amp) no they dont do as good a job as home rigs but who cares thats not the point. and yes a quality cap (like the ones in my PORTABLE VCAP DOCK) does cost more than most of the components in a portable amp. but they dont fit in a portable amp do they??


----------



## markh78

Thing is, if it ain't your cup of tea, then just leave quietly instead of preaching to us that our ways are wrong!

 I mean, some people pay thousands for old stamps that I would find completely useless, but hey it's a hobby that they enjoy so I wouldn't try to teach them that it's a complete waste of money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Many of us know and understand that it may not be worth all the money spent, especially compared to home setups, but alas, there's a need for *portable* amps for some people including myself.


----------



## roncruiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think most people find this stuff out sooner or later. If you really need an amp for portability, either your PDAP is likely not cutting it or your using the wrong headphone. 

 Its not that I do not agree that the iQube and PICO $500 truly portable amp make portable devices sound better, but there is no way that those portable headphones you use on average should need an additional $500 device in the middle to sound good, and $500 is many more times more effective at increasing quality for something like the HD600 or HD650 full sized headphones when spent on a good full-sized piece of equipment. 

 I fully believe a good portable cd player can rival the iMod. There really seems to be no such thing as anything close to being high-end in the portable arena, but I will bet good money that a simple 1st generation shuffle and UE11 IEM will blow any other similarly priced rig out of the water and into a different category. Get a decent DAP, a quality IEM or decent portable headphones, and skip the middle stuff in favor for something at home. Its just better, honestly.

 If you really need an amp, DIY a mini-3 and call it quits. Its just the order of things really; source, headphones, then amp, then analog cables, the rest is just expensive extra icing. If you have any crap in the chain, it only makes it as strong as the weakest link, its obvious though that your top two priorities should be your source and headphones. For portable listening done by the non-homeless, that should be plenty._

 

Well said.

 As a newb to portable amplification, I almost fell to it's allure. Having done enough research, I concluded I can have excellent portable SQ without a "portable" amp. How'd I do that? I bought Shure SE530's to go along with my 2G Ipod Touch! Easy. Excellent IEM's to go with a solid PDAP. Based on the information gathered here at head-fi, it was an easy decision to make. Why pay (waste) my money for an extra device when I didn't have to.


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

mrarroyo's post sums it all up - while home rigs have SQ and value-for-money, porta-rigs fulfil the needs of the commuters and mobile.

 Enough said.

 While the recent anti-porta-rig posts are framed nicely in an argument, some like Uncle Erik's, completely dismiss what little advantage(s) the portable rig do indeed have, against a home rig.

 I also feel that the one or two claims made about the placebo effect caused by spending on portable amps is shallow at best, unsubstantiated *opinions* at best - it is NOT a placebo effect. The SQ was NOT altered by my feelings and/or the feeling that spending extravagant money on a portable amp was more worth than the value of the amp itself. I read reviews, I go down and audition, compare and contrast, find a few differences, but the general idea on the amp is there.

 Every time I went down to town to try out amps, I did not compare the sound I heard to the best-of-the-best I've heard so far in my life - in fact I simply hear, and maybe compare it to iBud sound - and there is a great improvement in SQ. Something definitely noticeable.

 Value-for-money ratio doesn't matter that much as long as I'm not paying $1k in local currency for something crappy - like iBud or Creative Aurvana sound. It's a relative and individual thing, yes - hence why I find that when I pay for something, I personally *feel* it's worth it, and to me, I feel that SGD505 on a Graham Slee Voyager, or $6xx on a Hornet, is WORTH IT.

 Don't insult us and portable rigs, Uncle Erik. A portable rig is NOT jewellry - jewellry only offers aesthetic value at best. A portable rig is NOT for aesthetic value - the SQ may NOT make the great leap like home rigs, but there *is* good/great improvement in SQ. You insult us - and the makers who spent effort on creating good portable music - by dissing and dismissing portable amps, LODs and capacitors as "nothing more than jewellry".

 While I may like to partake in a nice objective and neutral argument, I find that arguing advantages - while constantly neglecting the opposite side of that argument - does not serve to persuade. Instead, it makes people want to turn away and ignore.

 I still and will always agree that home rig is good for true audiophilogy - as what the OP says - but a portable rig's advantages, for us, outweigh all that.


----------



## Mellow Mushroom

Portable amps are jewelery, you say? They are more like cables, to sell to people who don't know much about how to improve sound quality for real. I say, Stacey's mom has got it going on!


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mellow Mushroom* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Portable amps are jewelery, you say? They are more like cables, to sell to people who don't know much about how to improve sound quality for real. I say, Stacey's mom has got it going on!_

 

That's totally out of point.

 And besides, home audiophiles can spend thousands on cables. *And* they know what they're doing. Explain that.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roncruiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well said.

 As a newb to portable amplification, I almost fell to it's allure. Having done enough research, I concluded I can have excellent portable SQ without a "portable" amp. How'd I do that? I bought Shure SE530's to go along with my 2G Ipod Touch! Easy. Excellent IEM's to go with a solid PDAP. Based on the information gathered here at head-fi, it was an easy decision to make. Why pay (waste) my money for an extra device when I didn't have to._

 

It still all depends on what it is being used for. Is it as a true portable for walking around while listening wearing shorts and a t-shirt, or as a transportable and trying to bring better sound quality to your mobile or work location?

 If a person has a 2G nano or older, or 1G Touch or old iPhone, or 5.5G iPod video or older but is already using very good quality IEM, then to get better sound out of them the choices are a new DAP/iPod or add an amp to the current DAP's line out. Assuming one wants to stay very portable with minimal clutter, I agree a newer/nicer DAP with nice IEM makes more sense in most cases. But, I do feel that a small amp with line out dock will sound better, and it wasn't that difficult to carry around my 8gb 2G Nano with Predator in my cargo shorts in summer or in my fleece vest during the winter. And there is no question vs the headphone out that the line out dock sounds cleaner and more spacious with an amp hooked up.

 If a person is using full size headphones or harder to drive headphones, they are likely actually using it as a transportable at work or hotel room, and often an amp is just the ticket to make them perform better. I do feel there are many portable amps that can sound close to a desktop amp, while at the same time I agree one can spend less money on a desktop amp that sounds as good as a portable that costs twice as much. I am sure many $300-400 desktop amps (EF1, DV336i, NOVO, Caliente) will sound better than most portable amps, but can you easily take the desktop amp with you to use in the car, train or plane? No.

 When I go on vacation next week I will have my iPhone and Westone 3 for the plane, plus Nuforce NE-7M for walking around and using the phone; but I will also be bringing my Macbook with Predator USB DAC amp and ATH-ESW10 for the hotel room. I may also use the Predator with iPhone and IEM on the plane, to help the iPhone battery last longer by having the headphone jack volume at zero. Yes, this leaves my iMod/portable Vcaps at home lonely, sitting next to my iRiver H140 optical out to Micro DAC/Amp, but those rigs might make a good "leave at work" portable rig for someone else and kick butt on the DAP/IEM. Is it really portable anymore when used that way? Not really, but to some it is and it is worth it to carry around in a camera bag, and I do believe it will sound better than the minimal rig. (So, in that sense I disagree with the OP).


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Wow - sounds like a good itinenary to start with =o


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

PS: My kids probably think I am bringing the macbook so they can surf myspace all day, but my wife says they'll have to do surf lessons at the beach instead... Since I'm disabled I get to surf the web while they surf the waves.


----------



## synaesthetic

Somehow I think they got the better end of the deal. =)


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PS: My kids probably think I am bringing the macbook so they can surf myspace all day, but my wife says they'll have to do surf lessons at the beach instead... Since I'm disabled I get to surf the web while they surf the waves._

 

Disabled? Why?


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K.I. Unlimited* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's totally out of point.

 And besides, home audiophiles can spend thousands on cables. *And* they know what they're doing. Explain that._

 

The full cable debate probably stay in a different forum. That debate is a dragon compared to a torch in this case.

 Glad many of you still enjoy your rigs in any case, that is still pretty good on the wallet.


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

I suppose.

 Well in the end, the goal is the same - better music to the ears.

 A debate is nice and all, but let's help each other reach that goal, without compromising positions and beliefs.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While an Orpheus also seems like it would not be a value in itself for me and more like something a gadget person would want to collect, If an audiophile truly reached the best of the world in home audio for themselves, they fully deserve to spend the minuscule amount a portable rig would cost in comparison. I doubt they would be very satisfied with even the best portable rig equipment in existence._

 

I'm happy with my crappy car stereo, adding to that the engine and wind noise. Sometimes I find it more enjoyable to listen to than my expensive home rig. I think obsessiveness with perfection is being confused with listening enjoyment here.

  Quote:


 While I would like to believe that most people with these rigs spend a ton of time commuting, I would have trouble believing that. Even if that is true, it does not make sense in my mind to spend $500 on an amp, $175 on cables and $150 on capacitors to patch up the downfalls of a $200 player being paired with $300 headphones. It will help to some effect, but it also effectively makes it more of a hassle to place in the cramped quarters and suspicious on a plane to say the least, although I am sure that does not bother all people. 
 

For me personally, it might be something I'd do if I wanted a rig that was both portable and for home or office use (if I had an office) and wanted to get the most out of it possible. It's still cheaper than what some people, including myself, spend on home rigs. I agree with how silly all those costs look though.

 I gather the iMod will not go beyond the 5th gen iPods, so some of the ridiculousness will eventually fade away.


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm happy with my crappy car stereo, adding to that the engine and wind noise. Sometimes I find it more enjoyable to listen to than my expensive home rig. I think obsessiveness with perfection is being confused with listening enjoyment here._

 

Thank goodness for the light. I was also looking for this, but forgot how to put the idea into words - your last sentence.

 I recently found a song I've been looking for, for 8 years, on-off. When I finally bought the single through some Altec Lansing computer speakers, the sentimentality and effect wasn't there. Then I remembered - I was enjoying the music, and playing it again and again - for well over 15-30 times when I first heard it through 'crappy AIWA earbuds' and a PCDP. 

 So, I tried hearing the song with my iBud - and finally remembered how I felt back then.

 I apologise for going off-topic yet again (I know some of you have seen me doing that plenty of times), but please, if you have time, hear this (the song I finally found today thanks to forumers from a local forum)out - YouTube - Namie Amuro - Never End (Live from Okinawa) [namie cries]

 You may not make it, or the singer, your next favourite, but hope it brings something nice to your life.


----------



## terriblepaulz

Wow, I'm late to this great thread. When I started, price was the primary factor. The gift of an iPod allowed me to rediscover the joy of listening to music and my languishing CD collection. Starting my own business and two small children meant that a full-sized home stereo was out of the question. But add $70 for a pair of SR60s and I was gone. After that, being able to make small steps to improve sound (LOD and portable amp) made sense, which led to the ALO dock and PA2v2. This was relatively cheap, and it improved the sound quality, right? At least it made it louder.

 After this, the first full size cans (990s) inspired the purchase of the Hornet. Then came my first meets. Listening to a variety of cans on full size home amps, both SS and tube (and especially DIY) blew my mind. I also realized the limitations of the iPod (and iMod) as a source.

 So I "downsized" - sold the ALO dock and the Hornet, and got another portable (w/ USB DAC) and LOD for $0 extra. No diss to any piece of equipment, but I don't feel I lost anything in quality. Even this basic DAC outshines the iPod, so no more lossless tracks on the iPod, and "serious" listening is limited to the laptop. 

 Due to (long story omitted), a DIY tube amp fell into my lap. Now, my LOD is getting almost no use, and my Leckerton is used mostly as a DAC. The iPod is mostly used with my PortaPros or the wife's PX100s. The Grados and the Beyers get some tube love, and I get to spend a lot of time with the PortaPros, the world's finest cheap headphone (you heard that right PX100 lovers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). This makes me happy. That is all.


----------



## roncruiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it as a true portable for walking around while listening wearing shorts and a t-shirt, or as a transportable and trying to bring better sound quality to your mobile or work location?_

 

Yes, it is a "true" portable for out and about listening, and ,yes, I'm bringing better sound quality to my work location. Why spend my money on extraneous devices when I don't have to. I would if had to, but I don't have to. My "portable" SQ is excellent, and excellent is good enough. To each his own. I'm enjoying my music.


----------



## thatguyoverthere

This is a great read. So, all in all, should I eventually get a p51 mustang for my iPod and Westone 3s, or would it be a waste?


----------



## warsurferX

Thank you for one of the best post Head-fi has ever registered!

 I've always wondered about the ever growing business of "budget" portable amp and the demographic this segment targets at (at least this is observed where I'm staying)

 An excellent post! Thanks again.


----------



## Spareribs

Good points to the original poster but IMO, hi fi portable is great as long as it is within reason. I think spending over $1000 for a hi-fi portable system is really a waste of money unless if you enjoy it and can afford it. If money is not an issue, why not? A more refined sound is always welcome. In this regard, I don't see a problem. 

 You are right in many ways. In most cases, a good modest headphone upgrade is all you need. For me however, I like to splurge a little and tweak it with a Ray Samuels amp. It's a nice portable tweak which does not incovenience me.


----------



## mrarroyo

Lately I am using on rotation amps like the SR71, Reference, MiniBox-E+, D3, etc. I have an office and I carry w/ me the iPod Classic w/ an ALO line out, one of the amps listed above and an Ultrasone PROline 2500 or a Yuin OK1.

 Since I do not have much noise in the environment (except when the phone rings or a visitor/employee comes in) I enjoy my "transportable" setup immensely and to me it is worth all the money ($1,200+) I have in it.


----------



## billybob_jcv

I applaud the OP for having the courage to be a heretic among the faithful - or for very clever trolling... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm probably the opposite of mrarroyo - my primary portable listening environment is very high noise - my daily 1.5 hr commute each way by train or long airplane rides. For me, isolation and comfort are actually more important than getting the last bit of SQ. I don't use an amp while traveling - I tried it, but my IEMs don't really need it, and I discovered that all I was doing was turning the music up louder, not making it better. Having my ears ring was not my goal. I have actually had more success and fun by experimenting with different tips for my IEMs - including making my own from ear plugs. Trying to optimize comfort, isolation & SQ with the equipment I already own is now my primary portable passion.

 If I had a job closer to home, or traveled less, I would probably be focused on my desktop rig. One thing I do know is that I would be focused on SOMETHING...


----------



## craiglester

I think the OP was just saying "I have buyers remorse, and I want you to have it too.."

 I've always thought the imod/dock offered very little over just a $10 line out dock, and when you add in that extra box, yeah it does lose a lot of portability.


----------



## LingLing1337

Amazing post. At first I was considering a Zune 120, a very nice amp and LOD, new cans, etc. I had an epiphany, though, a little while before your post. I basically realized the same thing. Now, I couldn't be happier with my little Sansa Fuze-->FiiO E3-->Head-Direct RE2.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *craiglester* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the OP was just saying "I have buyers remorse, and I *don't* want you to have it too.."

 I've always thought the imod/dock offered very little over just a $10 line out dock, and when you add in that extra box, yeah it does lose a lot of portability._

 

FTFY


----------



## craiglester

Heh, no, I stand by what I said.. 

_*I think*_ the OP was just saying "I have buyers remorse, and I want you to have it too.."

 Subtle difference it makes huh?

 It's possible the OP really was performing a PSA, but it came across as a lecture to me.

 I agree however that there's a much better Price Performance ratio to be had with home gear than portable gear, just don't call it silly, or you're calling everyone who _does _appreciate the gear silly too. And we don't need a Portable Vs Home gear schism on Head-Fi. It's bad enough with the Dynamic Vs Electrostatic factions. 

 Personally, I think a simple "I've decided to sell my portable gear for a home setup as I feel it has a better price performance ratio..", would have sufficed, but then again it wouldn't have gotten so much attention..

 Let's all just agree to disagree and have a Happy Holiday season.. and hope no one bought Luminette a portable amp for Christmas eh


----------



## billybob_jcv

If you have a Honda generator strapped to your back *anything* can be a portable...


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *craiglester* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh, no, I stand by what I said.. 

*I think* the OP was just saying "I have buyers remorse, and I want you to have it too.."

 Subtle difference it makes huh?

 It's possible the OP really was performing a PSA, but it came across as a lecture to me.

 I agree however that there's a much better Price Performance ratio to be had with home gear than portable gear, just don't call it silly, or you're calling everyone who does appreciate the gear silly too. And we don't need a Portable Vs Home gear schism on Head-Fi. It's bad enough with the Dynamic Vs Electrostatic factions. 

 Personally, I think a simple "I've decided to sell my portable gear for a home setup as I feel it has a better price performance ratio..", would have sufficed, but then again it wouldn't have gotten so much attention..

 Let's all just agree to disagree and have a Happy Holiday season.. and hope no one bought Luminette a portable amp for Christmas eh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sorry man, I was outta line then. Happy holidays, hope you get whatever you want.


----------



## craiglester

No need to apologise, but that you did, says a lot for you.

 Is it bad I don't really want anything new, audio-gear wise? 

 New music is always welcome though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now, back on topic people ...


----------



## Brighten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PS: My kids probably think I am bringing the macbook so they can surf myspace all day, but my wife says they'll have to do surf lessons at the beach instead... Since I'm disabled I get to surf the web while they surf the waves._

 

Haha, this is great!

 Typical audio enthusiast gear-head geekdom... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can I put it in my sig?


----------



## Nailzs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *craiglester* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Heh, no, I stand by what I said.. 

*I think* the OP was just saying "I have buyers remorse, and I want you to have it too.."_

 

I feel bad that I'm perfectly happy with my D2 and J2 Jbuds and don't feel the need to spend anymore money on my portable stuff.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brighten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Haha, this is great!

 Typical audio enthusiast gear-head geekdom... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can I put it in my sig? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sure.


----------



## Moontan13

I think if you're an avid music lover and use portable audio frequently, spending a lot on gear isn't silly at all if you get the SQ improvement you expected. 
 If porta-fi is anything like home hi-fi, there's a cost/benefit curve that flattens out at the high end. The benefit is there, but important to the decriminating listener in an ideal environment.
 I'm starting out at the very low end of head-fi gear. For my iPod 5.5, I use JVC FX66 AirCushions and Optimus Pro 25s with a Fiio E3. At home, I use an old Kenwood integrated amp with an iPod/LOD, JVC HA RX900 and Denon D1001 headphones. While I'm happy at the moment with all this, I'm wanting to try a Fiio E5 or CMOY amp, (just waiting on some E5 vs CMOY reviews). Proceeding in this way, I may well end up with an iQube and a $500 set of IEMs, but probably not for a few years.


----------



## Moontan13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nailzs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I feel bad that I'm perfectly happy with my D2 and J2 Jbuds and don't feel the need to spend anymore money on my portable stuff._

 

Don't feel bad. There' s nothing wrong with being content with what you have. I still use the Optimus Pro 25 headphones I bought in 1988.


----------



## screamb

i love my rig, even though its a bit cumbersome to carry around. but it provides me with the audio quality that i've been wanting. i guess that's why many of us have 2 rigs?

 another that you can just slip into your pocket.


----------



## nocturnalsheet

i'm using ipod + d-jays. 

 tried many amps and lods and even caps. (if you know jaben is located where i am. audition is available before buying)

 at the end of the day, portable means as little stuff as possible. 

 people with imod+v caps+lisa3+iem is totally missing the point of portability.

 Just my 2 cents


----------



## K.I. Unlimited

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nocturnalsheet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm using ipod + d-jays. 

 tried many amps and lods and even caps. (if you know jaben is located where i am. audition is available before buying)

 at the end of the day, portable means as little stuff as possible. 

 people with imod+v caps+lisa3+iem is totally missing the point of portability.

 Just my 2 cents_

 

People share different poisons and meat. So that would mean your 2nd last sentence is a bit too much of an absolute...


----------



## RIDE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nocturnalsheet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm using ipod + d-jays. 

 tried many amps and lods and even caps. (if you know jaben is located where i am. audition is available before buying)

 at the end of the day, portable means as little stuff as possible. 

 people with imod+v caps+lisa3+iem is totally missing the point of portability.

 Just my 2 cents_

 

I completely, and respectfully, disagree with this.

 Portable is anything you are willing to carry. If that happens to be an iPod Nano and a P-51....or an iMod and Lisa III.............if it's going along with ME...then it's an acceptable, and appropriate, portable rig.

 I actually went from a smaller portable set up...to getting a Lisa III for my iMod. Why? Because it gives me the versatility while still being plenty portable.

 I tend to carry a brief case or travel with a backpack...so the size of my new set up is not an issue. I have even hit the road with my gear with only a jacket...without a problem.

 So I guess the point is....it bothers me when people discount the Lisa as an acceptable portable amp. Acceptable to you...perhaps not...but keep in mind that it is more than acceptable to many.


 RIDE


----------



## ghostmusic

Just to be redundant: this is all a personal choice. Speaking for myself, I've never been able to just use iPod/IEM for more than 1 hour because the sound puts me on the edge, makes me grit my teeth. I have a 5.5G 80gb iMod coming my way soon, and have just bought a SR-71a and a pair of ESW10JPNs. My expectations are realistic, given what I listen to at home on my 2-channel, but if it sounds like music, I'll be elated, seriously, because I spend a bulk of my day on the commute and in my office. 

 I get the rationale behind "you can't pocket the LISA III" or "why waste $ on a portable set-up when you can pimp your home set-up"? Makes a great deal of sense to me b/c I used to belong to the same camp. But that was when I didn't have that daily grind, could devote hours of listening time at home. If you're in that phase of your life, like me, when you spend more time at work or on the road, that extra musicality you can coax out of your transportable system will make your life a bit more bearable. Pleasurable, even. Believe me, I'd rather listen to some vinyl on my Platine Verdier than lossless files on a transportable rig. But we all grow up, and there will be a time when you come home from work, it's already too late to do anything but to down a couple of beers while catching 15 minutes of Sportscenter before hitting the sack. I've been really craving MUSIC on the way to work and at my office, and the iMod and the rest of the rig that's on their way to me right now makes me feel SERIOUSLY delirious.


----------



## Deadneddz

i enjoy my portable rig so much. I always say to myself "wow, how great it is to enjoy music like this when out driving, or walking around." Its wonderful to even sit outside and enjoy the music.

 It seems like the original poster was trying to create a home rig from portable gear. I dont think the Ultrasone ED9s can be driven by portable gear. But thats probably where his frustration came from.


----------



## Samjones

I love my portable rig so much! It makes my music sound better therefore It's awesome.

 Plus nothing beats the moments when people go "whats that" about the headphone amplifier. How I make them wish they didn't ask!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, on my trip to Maui for Xmas I actually used my iMod with LOD to Meier Headsix with NE-7M and ATH-ANC7 and appreciated the extra power of the amp to overcome the engine noise. That way I saved my Predator and XM5 rechargable batteries for the hotel room Macbook and bedside rigs, so i wouldn't have to lug around a bunch of chargers. I could set the XM5 to shut off after 3 hours at night, and not run the battery down. Of course on the way back the iMod/LOD/Amp almost bought me a strip search because I didn't take it apart for the xray screening process...

 Walking around the street or on the beach I used an iPhone 3G or 4G nano with no amp and some IEM, and saved the ESW10 for the hotel room. It was nice having a nice DAC/amp with headphones (or a few) for travel.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, on my trip to Maui for Xmas I actually used my iMod with LOD to Meier Headsix with NE-7M and ATH-ANC7 and *appreciated the extra power of the amp to overcome the engine noise*. That way I saved my Predator and XM5 rechargable batteries for the hotel room Macbook and bedside rigs, so i wouldn't have to lug around a bunch of chargers. I could set the XM5 to shut off after 3 hours at night, and not run the battery down. Of course on the way back the iMod/LOD/Amp almost bought me a strip search because I didn't take it apart for the xray screening process...

 Walking around the street or on the beach I used an iPhone 3G or 4G nano with no amp and some IEM, and saved the ESW10 for the hotel room. It was nice having a nice DAC/amp with headphones (or a few) for travel._

 

Although I've done it too, I'm starting to think that raising the volume to overcome external noise is *not* a good thing for your ears.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 USG


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Although I've done it too, I'm starting to think that raising the volume to overcome external noise is *not* a good thing for your ears.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

Not it's not, but I wanted to appreciate the bass better and only with an amp could I hear the deep bass.


----------



## ClieOS

Larry, it was supposed to be a vacation yet you were packing yourself so many gears. No wonder TSA officers can't tell you apart from the unabomber


----------



## gorgak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm hardly a spoiled audiophile - I've not got any grand rigs or anything. What I've got is in the photos up there. I fund my audio quest with a measley $8.60 an hour - and I think a lot of other portable hifi consumers are also going with this option in the idea that it's the more affordable route to put your foot in the door with hearing some good sound. It's just not true. And even if you're a billionaire, why waste a cent of it?_

 

Really? This is like telling people that they should only drive a base model Civic with cranker windows and no power steering because the additional cost of automatic windows and power steering isn't justified for the minimal convenience.

 I don't like power steering because it adds unneeded weight to the car and another fluid I have to change (which is inconvenient).


----------



## PowderLegend

Great post... I recently switched to iPhone 3G/Ety HF-2 for portable use and don't miss lugging an amp around.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gorgak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Really? This is like telling people that they should only drive a base model Civic with cranker windows and no power steering because the additional cost of automatic windows and power steering isn't justified for the minimal convenience.

 I don't like power steering because it adds unneeded weight to the car and another fluid I have to change (which is inconvenient)._

 

If those power windows were bigger then the car and cost more... and it already had power steering.


----------



## frozenice

I had a 1981 BMW 320i that had manual steering and I doubt that you would want to be doing much parallel parking in a car any bigger than that with manual steering - that was plenty enough effort to me, but it was a great car on the highway and in the city. I also had a 1998 Honda Civic and I am pretty sure it had power assisted steering - it certainly was a lot easier to parallel park than the BMW, that's for sure. Also, they both had manual windows which was fine by me. 

 One thing that the BMW had was good airflow in the summer in that you could drive around with the rear windows opened up (they tilted out instead of going up and down), the sunroof open and the vents open and it was very comfortable whereas the Civic needed the A/C on on when it got above 70* F or so.


----------



## nsx_23

Am I the only one that can't stand the volume out of an LOD?

 Even with my cans, running my iPod via LOD to my Corda XXS is so damn loud at minimum volume that I can't listen to it for more than 10 seconds.


----------



## dfkt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nsx_23* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Am I the only one that can't stand the volume out of an LOD?

 Even with my cans, running my iPod via LOD to my Corda XXS is so damn loud at minimum volume that I can't listen to it for more than 10 seconds._

 

Did you set the Corda to low gain/current?


----------



## jyle_t

this is like arguing performance/price ratio of laptop vs desktop, at the widest sense.

 i've never had a laptop and i'd love to stick to that for now. same for audio.


----------



## Nirvana1000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brandnewgame* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The FiiOs just a bass boost. Get a good sounding DAP and some IEMs with enough bass already. FiiO is a last ditch attempt to save bassless phones._

 

I disagree.I think the Fiio E5 can make any IEM sound better than just using a DAP alone.It's a fantastic option for those who want a little better sound quality and volume and are on a strict budget.In fact i think the Fiio E5 sounds better then amps costing 2,3 or 4 times more.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nirvana1000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree.I think the Fiio E5 can make any IEM sound better than just using a DAP alone.It's a fantastic option for those who want a little better sound quality and volume and are on a strict budget.*In fact i think the Fiio E5 sounds better then amps costing 2,3 or 4 times more.*_

 

Care to divulge what amps you are speaking of?


----------



## idpadan

This thread (and others like it) is why I keep coming back to Head-fi. Reasonable people with firmly held opinions who can discuss and disagree in a civilized manner. Not to mention a lot of great information. 
 Thanks guys.


----------



## smeggy

I just joined the porta-fi club, I run big-ass low impedance phones so I got a mini3.. now they rumble.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The average DAP struggles to drive most of my phones.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *smeggy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just joined the porta-fi club, I run big-ass low impedance phones so I got a mini3.. now they rumble.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The average DAP struggles to drive most of my phones._

 

You should mention that your portables are heavily dampened orthodynamics. Not everyone in the portable thread knows who you are.


----------



## smeggy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should mention that your portables are heavily dampened orthodynamics. Not everyone in the portable thread knows who you are. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's 'cos I are a super-secret porta-ninja 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes, anyways... needs moar powah!!


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *smeggy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's 'cos I are a super-secret porta-ninja 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes, anyways... needs moar powah!!_

 

Smeggy is not one to fall for gimmicks the likes of th3 uninformed. He uses those custom modded orthos greatly suited for portability (in every way but fashion and size, though he fixes this with wood turning hax) both sensible in price and selection. If only he had electronics DIY skills.


----------



## smeggy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Smeggy is not one to fall for gimmicks the likes of th3 uninformed. He uses those custom modded orthos greatly suited for portability (in every way but fashion and size, though he fixes this with wood turning hax) both sensible in price and selection. If only he had electronics DIY skills. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 My electronix skillz are so Ninja even I can't find them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 To give some idea of just how unportable my portable headphones are, just the other day I walked into a cafe and one of the guys chortled that it looked like I had a pair of hamburgers on my head 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mmmm hamburger head with nice meaty sound! I tried using them without an amp but they suck all the life out of mp3 players... Still, as portable rigs go, it's awesome, if not particularly portable. It sounds too good to give up.


----------



## t0dy

This is a very interesting thread! I have only read about 3 pages, though.
 I think the OP has some very interesting thoughts on this. But, there is a HUGE difference in sound quality when connecting a portable amp to your portable source, when using demanding headphones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 This is probably the biggest reason why I just bought myself something better than the FiiO E5. I really want the mini^3 when trying out different 'phones. I think it will give me a much better idea of what a fullsized headphone could sound like if I bring the iPod with portable amp and LOD cable to different stores etc than just plugging demanding phones straight into the HP jack.
 Also, having a portable amp is very versatile and not very costly because of that. In my world, I think the extra bulk at home, at work and on trips is definately worth it if I get nicer sounding music. Running around in town or taking the tram or buss, THEN you might as well skip all that and just go with a small player and some noise-blocking IEMs.

 Simply put, I would think a portable amp is golden for all other occations than on-the-go or at home (alone), which are quite many!

 I would recommend this forum to anyone who has this interest, but I think I will refer to this threads first post to what they should begin reading! It's that good!


----------



## mark_h

I ♥ Head-Fi


----------



## jung

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I need to make a mention for PCDPs. There it is. Too many PCDPs, mostly older ones, outright destroy the audio quality of our PDAPs - whether by their headphone out or their line-out._

 

Why?

 I thought the technology of DAC and OpAmp advanced significantly over the years.

 If the problem is capacitor not large enough, would it be fixed by an external amp?

 BTW, would good battery, with high current output and low internal resistance, be functionally equivalent to, and be able to replace, a large capacitor? NiCd and NiMH may be better than Li battery for high current and low resistance.


----------



## gameprey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *frozenice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had a 1981 BMW 320i that had manual steering and I doubt that you would want to be doing much parallel parking in a car any bigger than that with manual steering - that was plenty enough effort to me, but it was a great car on the highway and in the city. I also had a 1998 Honda Civic and I am pretty sure it had power assisted steering - it certainly was a lot easier to parallel park than the BMW, that's for sure. Also, they both had manual windows which was fine by me. 

 One thing that the BMW had was good airflow in the summer in that you could drive around with the rear windows opened up (they tilted out instead of going up and down), the sunroof open and the vents open and it was very comfortable whereas the Civic needed the A/C on on when it got above 70* F or so._

 



 3-series is a pretty solid car (no matter what platform), as long as you're not a prick about it (haha BMW drivers, etc. etc.).


 Anyway, concerning audio: I just got my cheap amp (E5) to go with my cheap headphones (HD555/KSC75) and cheap sources (Fuze/crappy laptop onboard sound) and it sounds beautiful to me. The only reason I would upgrade is to get a different type of headphone (closed or IEM, for example), or one with a way different sound signature (grado perhaps). I honestly don't feel like spending more than $100 for any component of a portable system.

 The law of diminishing returns comes into effect bigtime with audio, and especially portable audio. Heck, for the price I paid for my rig so far ($100, minus the Fuze and laptop), I could get a used stereo receiver and some old speakers that would sound nearly as good (or at least good enough), which is just what I might do


----------



## lutwey

i totally agree with the op with this one. i started my headfi journey through this route and ended up losing 2-300 usd for buying amps and stuff.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nirvana1000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree.*I think the Fiio E5 can make any IEM sound better *than just using a DAP alone.It's a fantastic option for those who want a little better sound quality and volume and are on a strict budget.In fact i think the Fiio E5 sounds better then amps costing 2,3 or 4 times more._

 

Inquiring minds would like to know how it does that??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


----------



## jochen.schell

I cannot agree with the OP.
 My Westone 3 does sound so much better using the P-51 with my iPhone 3G than just using the headphone out that I am not willing to hear portable music ever again without an amp.
 For me this is worth carrying this tiny amp and a LOD with me.

 The sound is much wider, airier, has more bass, more highs and more soundstage.
 In direct comparisation the headphone out sounds just narrow and muddy.

 Jochen


----------



## Luminette

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jochen.schell* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I am not willing to hear portable music ever again without an amp.

 Jochen_

 


 That's ridiculous


----------



## Gatto

seriously.... you bumped this old dead thread to call somebody ridiculous?


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Luminette* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's ridiculous_

 

Wait until you read about the Beta22 in the builders thread being built for use with IEMs. :facepalm:

 You haven't been around much lately on head-fi either, have you Luminette?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I have reduced the size of my portable rigs.

*Primary* - I always carry iPhone 3G with Westone 3/Phonak Audeo headset, or ES3X and no amp.
*Secondary* - Nano 4G with jumbo cryo silver x dock and iBasso T4 (usually in a pocket and comes out when iPhone battery is low)
*Not often* - iMod with piccolino LOD and P-51 Mustang (used this exclusively at CanJam), usually in fanny pack in car.


----------



## Luminette

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait until you read about the Beta22 in the builders thread being built for use with IEMs. :facepalm:

 You haven't been around much lately on head-fi either, have you Luminette?_

 

Nope, and lol@b22 for IEMs


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gatto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_seriously.... you bumped this old dead thread to call somebody ridiculous?_

 

Are you kidding me????????? This old totally ridiculous thread was drug up because someone's value system is different than yours! You came on & said your piece about why you were leaving , what, about 10years ago now(well it seems that long ago!). Guess what??? He's ba-aack! What happened you needed a venue to try to dominate people who did'nt see things the same way that you do? Let's forget about the whole subject matter of these forums for a second. After we mature & become adults we should develop the ability to state our points of view in most complete manner that we can & then (pay attention now this is important!) learn to accept the fact that others have the right to not agree or see things the same way! It's called being (here's the important term) o b j e c t i v e! When you respond to someone by resorting to calling them a name,(here's a test question) your not being" ". Hopefully you were able to fill in the blanks,but I'm not really that confident you could! Here's hoping in the future you can find a more satisfying way to spend your(by the looks of your response you have a lot of) time!


----------



## Elluzion

Thanks for taking the time to write this. i completely agree with everything you said. i think i need a full sized headphone and a nice desktop amp now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 its funny how i found this thread, because seriously 2 minutes ago i was looking at the iQube website. how silly...


----------



## Podtweaker

I left a bit too soon as I have a few more comments that came to me after I closed my last response. This is being directed toward everyone. To assume that someone finds value in something that you don't needs to be shown they are just ridculous is actually the height of ridiculousness,because you've assumed the attitude that there is no possibility the other persons perceptions can be valid,why? just because you don't see it that way! Come on guys grow up a little. Are we a little bitter because we got picked on as kids? "Well, I'm right, look at all these dopes convinced that " " is worthwhile" to them it is. Have any of you heard the phrase "Perfect people don't exist, only perfect a**h***s". Think about that one for a second. In fact some of you take all the time you need(& that might not even be enough time for some of you,unfortunately for the rest of us) Oh yeah, have a nice day!.


----------



## manaox2

The comment was crude and improper to some, but no one was actually called ridiculous in the comment. He said "that's ridiculous" in reference to a specific part of his opinion and not the user he quoted. He could have explained himself better there, sure, but no name calling actually happened.


----------



## krohm

yep
 and mulitple posts saying the same thing are fcking ridiculous
 imo


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The comment was crude and improper to some, but no one was actually called ridiculous in the comment. He said "that's ridiculous" in reference to a specific part of his opinion and not the user he quoted. He could have explained himself better there, sure, but no name calling actually happened._

 

Give me a break! You mean to tell me that the majority of posters here have'nt come across this saying numerous times! Who besides older people are really that offended. Lets have a poll of those of you with at least a basic intellect & are actually adults needs to hear if someone finds this or that "ridiculous". If something is, it's obvious! I guess some people need confirmation from others! I think this is what is referred to as herd mentality. We all know what happened to the giant herds of bison that once roamed this country(I know I'm being "ridiculous", that's okay I'm sure someone will point this out to me in a future posting! I have a slow learning curve )


----------



## tenzip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you kidding me????????? This old totally ridiculous thread was drug up because someone's value system is different than yours! You came on & said your piece about why you were leaving , what, about 10years ago now(well it seems that long ago!). Guess what??? He's ba-aack! What happened you needed a venue to try to dominate people who did'nt see things the same way that you do? Let's forget about the whole subject matter of these forums for a second. After we mature & become adults we should develop the ability to state our points of view in most complete manner that we can & then (pay attention now this is important!) learn to accept the fact that others have the right to not agree or see things the same way! It's called being (here's the important term) o b j e c t i v e! When you respond to someone by resorting to calling them a name,(here's a test question) your not being" ". Hopefully you were able to fill in the blanks,but I'm not really that confident you could! Here's hoping in the future you can find a more satisfying way to spend your(by the looks of your response you have a lot of) time!_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I left a bit too soon as I have a few more comments that came to me after I closed my last response. This is being directed toward everyone. To assume that someone finds value in something that you don't needs to be shown they are just ridculous is actually the height of ridiculousness,because you've assumed the attitude that there is no possibility the other persons perceptions can be valid,why? just because you don't see it that way! Come on guys grow up a little. Are we a little bitter because we got picked on as kids? "Well, I'm right, look at all these dopes convinced that " " is worthwhile" to them it is. Have any of you heard the phrase "Perfect people don't exist, only perfect a**h***s". Think about that one for a second. In fact some of you take all the time you need(& that might not even be enough time for some of you,unfortunately for the rest of us) Oh yeah, have a nice day!._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Give me a break! You mean to tell me that the majority of posters here have'nt come across this saying numerous times! Who besides older people are really that offended. Lets have a poll of those of you with at least a basic intellect & are actually adults needs to hear if someone finds this or that "ridiculous". If something is, it's obvious! I guess some people need confirmation from others! I think this is what is referred to as herd mentality. We all know what happened to the giant herds of bison that once roamed this country(I know I'm being "ridiculous", that's okay I'm sure someone will point this out to me in a future posting! I have a slow learning curve )_

 

I have absolutely no clue what or who you're railing against. Nor will I ever until you learn a very basic technique.

 There.

 And again. Try it sometime. Until then, your wall of text will remain just that, a wall.


----------



## olblueyez

Hey Podtweaker, take a deep breath dude.


----------



## jonathanjong

Bud? Corono? Smeh.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

THERE'S NO LEMON SLICE IN THAT CORONA! BLASPHEMY!


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tenzip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have absolutely no clue what or who you're railing against. Nor will I ever until you learn a very basic technique.

 There.

 And again. Try it sometime. Until then, your wall of text will remain just that, a wall._

 

The messages were written on a need to know basis(they were directed toward the OP). I checked the need to know list. You guys were'nt on it. That's ok most of you appear to have a "live & let live" outlook (the OP on the other hand does'nt). As far as keyboard technique goes I have none because I'm "Typing Challenged". I never learned how to type. Sorry for the "Walls of Text". I can see how they can become annoying(even to me & I continue writting them!)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Tequiza is where it's at...


----------



## tenzip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_THERE'S NO LEMON SLICE IN THAT CORONA! BLASPHEMY!_

 

Fizzy, yellow beer is, in itself, blasphemy.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tenzip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Fizzy, yellow beer is, in itself, blasphemy._

 

This look better?


----------



## smeggy

Aah, urine sample, much better


----------



## tenzip

Olblue, much better.

 smeggy, if your urine looks like that, you need to go to hospital, now.


----------



## smeggy

Doesn't everybodys urine look like that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, my prtable rig is teh awesomes and kicks many asses.


----------



## Gatto

oh hooray, this thread desperately needed a derailing


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *smeggy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aah, urine sample, much better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If that's your urine that means you have kidney failure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gatto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh hooray, this thread desperately needed a derailing_

 

Your sarcasm isn't welcomed on this thread.


----------



## Bilavideo

Screw the Bud and the Corona. I want to see more of that chick's leg.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tenzip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Olblue, much better.

 smeggy, if your urine looks like that, you need to go to hospital, now._

 

Right - Post Streptococcal Glomerulonephritis is my diagnosis.


----------



## smeggy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Right - Post Streptococcal Glomerulonephritis is my diagnosis._

 

Just to be sure, I filled and envelope and sent it to you fist class mail for further investigation


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *smeggy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to be sure, I filled and envelope and sent it to you fist class mail for further investigation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I knew it was a mistake to give out my address to anyone, even if it meant having woodied headphones sent to me in the past...


----------



## terriblepaulz

Clearly this thread needs to get back on track. Podtweaker - more absurdist poetry please.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *terriblepaulz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Clearly this thread needs to get back on track. Podtweaker - more absurdist poetry please._

 


  Code:


```
[left]I have a 5G iPod, it's headphone out just sucks, it's sound is just so dull and flat, with music in a state of flux. To hear the details in every strain, an LOD is needed, to connect to better amps I hear, my musical desire is seeded. And grows to be a wallet killer, with every IEM I buy, When all I needed was an iPhone 3G, so to hell will my wallet fry.[/left]
```


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *terriblepaulz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Clearly this thread needs to get back on track. Podtweaker - more absurdist poetry please._

 

Pleez ! missa terriba-puaz doan yu cutz me up no maw, I canz tayk it


----------



## Gatto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Your sarcasm isn't welcomed on this thread._

 


 that wasn't sarcasm, this thread is extremely opinionated and fairly pointless considering what forum we're on. The only reason it was bumped is the good old OP decided to pop back onto the forum and wanted to make sure nobody forgot how much he hates portable hi-fi


----------



## smeggy

It was a daft thread to begin with.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gatto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that wasn't sarcasm, this thread is extremely opinionated and *fairly pointless* considering what forum we're on. The only reason it was bumped is the good old OP decided to pop back onto the forum and wanted to make sure nobody forgot how much he hates portable hi-fi_

 

I disagree. This thread is a good read for those deciding whether they should get an amp or not. Sacrificing portability for a fat amp or in the OP's case, some giant caps and a fat amp may or not be something a person would regret in the future.

 And coming from someone who even considers two different portable rigs (one with an amp and one without an amp), this thread isn't pointless. Hypocritical much?


----------



## Gatto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree. This thread is a good read for those deciding whether they should get an amp or not. Sacrificing portability for a fat amp or in the OP's case, some giant caps and a fat amp may or not be something a person would regret in the future.

 And coming from someone who even considers two different portable rigs (one with an amp and one without an amp), this thread isn't pointless. Hypocritical much?_

 

Just because I don't always use an amp doesn't mean it was a stupid decision, if I didn't own a portable amp then sure, I shouldn't be talking. I don't think it's a good thread for newbies trying to decide what to do because it's an extremely opinionated thread.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gatto* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just because I don't always use an amp doesn't mean it was a stupid decision, if I didn't own a portable amp then sure, I shouldn't be talking. I don't think it's a good thread for newbies trying to decide what to do because it's an extremely opinionated thread._

 

You're still considering not using a portable amp at times. Makes you hypocritical if you ask me. You don't think it's a good thread? Now isn't that an opinion. And I don't know if you've noticed that the reviews and posts regarding headphone hifi and Head-fi itself are all based on opinions most of the time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Welcome to Head-fi. Where opinions help make decisions.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I am on a 5 day holiday to Steamboat Springs, and brought my iMod/Piccolino LOD/XM5 to listen to at bedtime, using the amp's auto-shutoff after a couple of hours. I am enjoying that a bit more than no amp, but I am not carrying it around with me either. I still don't think portable hifi is silly yet, it just depends on the circumstances as to when it is practical.


----------



## hockeyb213

Wow this thread got resurrected from the dead though not needed it may be a interesting read for someone considering a portable amp. But ultimately it is a weight between portability and absolute sound quality


----------



## kugino

i haven't read through this whole thread...but i do love the incendiary thread title! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i used to have one of those huge portable rigs - replete with original imod, LOD, custom mini-mini, various portable amps, extra batteries, etc. but i got tired of carrying it around, and my active lifestyle rarely ever allows me to carry more than my iphone and a pair of er6i/livewires. while "portable hi-fi" is certainly portable, personally i have never found it to be convenient.

 convenience aside, the latest wave in portable listening is the custom IEM. though i've not tried very many custom IEMs, my experiences with universal IEMs has led me to believe that almost all IEMs do not significantly improve their sound with the use of an amp. IEMs, by design, are sensitive, easy to drive, and don't require much power. now, i know power isn't the only thing to consider...and for very noisy sources, i can see the advantage of using an ultra-quiet amp leading to the IEM.

 still, the improvement in sound is minimal so i think an amp really is overkill for most IEMs (the er4s are an exception). portable amps, if used to power full-sized headphones, are certainly useful...but i never carry my full-sized headphones around.

 i am, however, intrigued by the new wave of portable amps that are specifically designed for IEMs - not just small-sized amps, but amps that pay particular attention to the needs of the IEM and the ultra-portable experience. like many, i am keeping an eye out for justin's pico slim and ray's new amp...perhaps a low-profile LOD and one of these amps may be in my future, if they significantly improve my IEM experience without sacrificing true portability.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i haven't read through this whole thread...but i do love the incendiary thread title! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i used to have one of those huge portable rigs - replete with original imod, LOD, custom mini-mini, various portable amps, extra batteries, etc. but i got tired of carrying it around, and my active lifestyle rarely ever allows me to carry more than my iphone and a pair of er6i/livewires. while "portable hi-fi" is certainly portable, personally i have never found it to be convenient.

 convenience aside, the latest wave in portable listening is the custom IEM. though i've not tried very many custom IEMs, my experiences with universal IEMs has led me to believe that almost all IEMs do not significantly improve their sound with the use of an amp. IEMs, by design, are sensitive, easy to drive, and don't require much power. now, i know power isn't the only thing to consider...and for very noisy sources, i can see the advantage of using an ultra-quiet amp leading to the IEM.

 still, the improvement in sound is minimal so i think an amp really is overkill for most IEMs (the er4s are an exception). portable amps, if used to power full-sized headphones, are certainly useful...but i never carry my full-sized headphones around.

 i am, however, intrigued by the new wave of portable amps that are specifically designed for IEMs - not just small-sized amps, but amps that pay particular attention to the needs of the IEM and the ultra-portable experience. like many, i am keeping an eye out for justin's pico slim and ray's new amp...perhaps a low-profile LOD and one of these amps may be in my future, if they significantly improve my IEM experience without sacrificing true portability._

 

The amp isn't just for power - sometimes it's for the upgrade in SQ by using the line out, or for the change in sound signature to complement the IEM, which are important too.

 If you read the whole thread, I did say previously that most of the time I use my iPhone 3G with IEM and no amp for portable, or 4G Nano with small LOD and iBasso T4. So, I am not strictly a "use amp all the time" kinda guy, just presenting the rationale for using one. And to remind people that a portable rig can sound close to a desktop rig with the appropriate headphones (although when I have a choice I will usually use the full size rig when available).

 PS: nobody liked my poem...


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The amp isn't just for power - sometimes it's for the upgrade in SQ by using the line out, or for the change in sound signature to complement the IEM, which are important too.

 If you read the whole thread, I did say previously that most of the time I use my iPhone 3G with IEM and no amp for portable, or 4G Nano with small LOD and iBasso T4. So, I am not strictly a "use amp all the time" kinda guy, just presenting the rationale for using one. And to remind people that a portable rig can sound close to a desktop rig with the appropriate headphones (although when I have a choice I will usually use the full size rig when available).

 PS: nobody liked my poem..._

 

sure, i don't think an amp only provides power...most internal amps in portables supply enough power to properly drive IEMs...i certainly understand that there's a difference between good power and bad power. and i most definitely agree that amps can change the sound signature of headphones. 

 it's just been my experience that the small benefits gained in an ultra-rig are outweighed, at least for me, by the portability of just a source and IEMs. i did love my imod, and my original 4G imod with the original pocket reference was as good a "portable" system as i've ever had. but not easily transportable in my pockets and not useful on my motorcycle.

 if, however, the pico slim is as good as it appears...and makes a difference out of the iphone line out, i will most certainly give it a go...

 i just think that for new entrants into the portable world we ought to be providing a bit more information about just how much gain in sound quality one can expect...and how i believe many of the portable amps out there are not necessary for the sources that are used and the IEMs that are used...that they'd be much better off going straight from portable->IEM. more effort should go into making sure that the source files are lossless or high bitrate files...and more money should go into getting really good IEMs over an IEM/amp combo for the same price.


----------



## smeggy

Speak for yourselves, my amp is purely for power 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thankfully the mini3 has lots of it for low impedance phones!


----------



## Podtweaker

I think I finally see the purpose of this thread. It's an outlet for people to externalize their indecisions about pursuing portable hi-fi. "Is it worth the extra effort & expense to me?" . Seems pretty straightfoward to me. Are you enjoying yourself or are'nt you? "But, gee maybe I'll find out later on, all the time & effort really was'nt worth it." That's a real possibility. "But are these realizations going to impact my life in some crucial way" Oh my god! I wasted all that time & money". "What, a fool I was!!! I better start a thread & tell my story so others won't find out too late, & end up dissatisfied & realize that they could have been happier all along with a simple set-up!" All I have to say is you've led a charmed life if these things are your greatest worries!!! Me ? I don't think I'll worry too much if I've made the wrong decisions. I think I'll some how survive some of these poor decisions! **** happens ,we just have to deal with it ! Its called life!


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I finally see the purpose of this thread. It's an outlet for people to externalize their indecisions about pursuing portable hi-fi. "Is it worth the extra effort & expense to me?" . Seems pretty straightfoward to me. Are you enjoying yourself or are'nt you? "But, gee maybe I'll find out later on, all the time & effort really was'nt worth it." That's a real possibility. "But are these realizations going to impact my life in some crucial way" Oh my god! I wasted all that time & money". "What, a fool I was!!! I better start a thread & tell my story so others won't find out too late, & end up dissatisfied & realize that they could have been happier all along with a simple set-up!" All I have to say is you've led a charmed life if these things are your greatest worries!!! Me ? I don't think I'll worry too much if I've made the wrong decisions. I think I'll some how survive some of these poor decisions! **** happens ,we just have to deal with it ! Its called life!_

 

Like none of us wasted money on a Hobby before, your right.


----------



## kugino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Podtweaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think I finally see the purpose of this thread. It's an outlet for people to externalize their indecisions about pursuing portable hi-fi. "Is it worth the extra effort & expense to me?" . Seems pretty straightfoward to me. Are you enjoying yourself or are'nt you? "But, gee maybe I'll find out later on, all the time & effort really was'nt worth it." That's a real possibility. "But are these realizations going to impact my life in some crucial way" Oh my god! I wasted all that time & money". "What, a fool I was!!! I better start a thread & tell my story so others won't find out too late, & end up dissatisfied & realize that they could have been happier all along with a simple set-up!" All I have to say is you've led a charmed life if these things are your greatest worries!!! Me ? I don't think I'll worry too much if I've made the wrong decisions. I think I'll some how survive some of these poor decisions! **** happens ,we just have to deal with it ! Its called life!_

 

please, teach us, oh ultimate wise one.


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kugino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_please, teach us, oh ultimate wise one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nope, you missed the whole point! I'll put it in one sentence. I was being sarcastic about this thread having a purpose. Everything I said are things we should already know! Let's have a hearty round of "Awww" for everyone who needs this thread or change the thread tittle because it's not portable hi-fi that's too silly(That was more than one sentence was'nt it) . Everyone continuing to stay here, have fun with your angst!!!


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## bigizzy75

Tip of the hat to you sir! I honestly agree


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## pandacat

For those who are leaving, can I have your stuff? I'll trade with you some itune gift cards.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pandacat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those who are leaving, can I have your stuff? I'll trade with you some itune gift cards._


----------



## Podtweaker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pandacat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those who are leaving, can I have your stuff? I'll trade with you some itune gift cards._

 

Not the website(Too much usefull information to give up), This thread (No usefull info to give up, unless you consider how to seem a bit confused usefull!) Comprende, amigo! Adios, muchachos!! (iTunes gift card ? You listen to compressed music? No thanks in that case leaving completely would'nt be any great loss)


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## smeggy

From my cold dead....


----------



## Golden Ears

I thought I would give my impressions about the pursuit of portable high Fidelity, even though I am not a long-term member of this website.

 First off, let’s be realistic, let’s pretend we were trying to make portable miniature formula 1 cars. You cannot expect the same kind of performance in a compact package. But seeing that we’re limiting this to a headphone experience – it’s more like pursuing the best slot car toy car racing has to offer.

 So given the fact that because of our size constraints we will not be able to reach the best in sound than our hobby has to offer – you’ll have to accept a few trade-offs.

 First off, perhaps the worst of all trade-offs is to forgo portability. Because, that is the raison d’être of this particular hobby. What I do find laughable, is that people slowly- bit by bit- give up the portability of this hobby. And in the end, often in terms of weight and size it seems like the only advantage is that the “portable rig” is battery powered.

 I remember going to the first headphone meet in Denver in 2008, and Larry “headphone addict” showed me his ultimate “portable” setup. Which realistically, I looked at as a transportable setup for taking to and from a cubicle at work.

 So probably a line should be drawn between “portable” and “transportable” setups.

 There is no doubt that the current state of portable high Fidelity has been moving forward. Being born in the 1960s, I can remember when radio headphones were the best portable sound you could have. When the Sony Walkman came out, that was a huge leap forward – but the headphones, high-efficiency ones, were incredibly colored in sound. Even the Sony top-of-the-line Walkman at its issues, and the best Aiwa HSJ-500 had its flaws. But it was quite listenable when using Koss Porta-Pro headphones. Realistically – the bass frequencies were hyped, there was rolloff in the upper frequencies, and the midrange was overly forward. But, it was a rocking set up suitable for sports use.

 Even back then, I realized that the pursuit of true high fidelity using portable equipment was not realistic.

 Just as it was not realistic in the 1960s and 1970s using radio headphones.

 Now keep in mind, that same Aiwa HSJ-500 set up – if heard in the 1940s, would have been considered the ultimate in high Fidelity. But to expect portable gear to catch up to gear which does not have those size constraints is not entirely realistic even given surface mounted components and micro-transistors and even nu-vistors. About 8 years ago I asked people on Headroom to make a portable tube amp- as I felt the tradeoffs would be favorable for tubes in a portable application because the solid state had low frequency advantages which likely would be of no benefit for most headphones. Only the Millet Hybrid portable has met this challenge successfully.

 For the most part, I had given up on portable sound. The original Apple iPods sounded dreadful, and it wasn’t until I heard the first-generation iPod nano that I considered the iPod as a source at all. It pained me to see if the "cost no object" portable tape (HSJ-500 & Sony "Buddakhan" tape players and digital compact disc players fade into oblivion as the sound was massmarketed- in particular tape units quality disappeared as CDPs came around.. I owned several of the Denon DCP-100 and DCP-150 compact disc players – and they represented the best portable audio ever had to offer. Those metal case players had great bass response and reasonably good amplification as well as excellent signal-to-noise ratio. When listening with one of these players on the beach in southampton – about 60 yards in from the water, the water added “dither” and let me hear further into the music. I was completely satisfied- and at that point- considered it “near Hi-Fidelity” in terms of detail, and tonality, and even…shudder Signal to noise ratio which with the added “dither” of the ocean- gave me a reasonable listening experience that had me feeling like I was not missing my home rig. BUT The OCEAN is not portable...and without this "Dither" it lost its magic. It was my first realization that "Dither" really makes a difference, and is not merely noise.

 My home rig was a Wadia 860 feeding Bryston 4b Amplifiers (a bit bright) and (Also bright) Infinity Reference Standard RS-1a’s (bi-amp’ed) flanked by (2) Entec SW-1 subwoofers (with (3) servo controlled 10 inch woofers with long throw- and 250 watts of amplification each). My phono rig was a Mitsubishi LT-30 linear tracking turntable (College dorm ready) with a Dynavector Ruby cartridge, feeding an Apt Holman Pre-amp. Now- that home rig- could have used a Wadia 860x upgrade, Infinity RS1b’s (improved EMIM midranges), and an Audio Research VT Mark II amplifier on top, and a Krell or Marklevinson on the bottom. The Turntable should have been a Goldmund w/ T3-f arm and a Conrad Johnson phono stage, and the Preamp should have been a Hovland, or Audio research… but..hey.. the buck has to stop somewhere- and I had my system dialed so well, that it was "hard to justify spending any more money because I had already hit audio nirvana." 

 “Hard to justify spending any more money because I had already hit audio nirvana.” repeat...

 There it is….

 In the words of a famous person from Maine, “you can't get there from here”. It is possible to hit audio nirvana in high Fidelity – and for some people they can get there sooner but less expenditure and less equipment and less amplification and fewer speakers than others. Some take more ..., and some realize they don't need more at a point.

 But for me, and not necessarily for everyone else, I realized from the start when it comes to "portable high Fidelity" “you can’t get there from here”. So I wanted to find out just how close I could get to “there” from here.

 So when I went to the headphone meet in Denver, I wanted to see if I could get detail, sound staging, or a live sound from headphones and their portable amplification choices.

 So my first reference, was to listen to the best home stereo rigs. I heard a bunch of them, and for the most part I always realized I was listening to headphones. And the fidelity from the headphones paled in comparison to the fidelity from my home stereo rig. Leaving me with the feeling that I was getting a crappy facsimile of my home sound without any bass response, and without any true sense of imaging air and space as compared to my home stereo. ALSO ...There was no "tactile immersion".

 So I listened to a few Sennheiser’s, as well as all the other usual suspects. And the disappointment continued down the line. Then I came across the combination of an iPod (sixth generation) with an audio line out 22 gauge dock feeding a TTVJ Millet Hybrid Tube Amplifier which fed Ultrasone Edition 9 headphones. The headphones were too bright (early listner fatigue)… with their titanium diaphrams- but with the APS V3 cable upgrade on another set of Edition 9’s… it was 90% tamed, albeit still a bit too bright over 12kHz-20kHz and perhaps a little tad too dull from 12khz and down… but much much better.

 With the Millet at one particular volume level (it was loud) - the tubes kicked in just right and I got the impression of listening to speakers… not quite high fidelity speakers…but very close.. perhaps akin to a nice Tandberg 3012 integrated amplifier with a decent Music Hall turntable, running Magneplanar Tympani 1’D’s with a REL subwoofer. And "I was immersed" with very little sense of wearing "ear speakers" but instead to listening in a real space.

 It sounded slightly underpowered amplifier wise except in the bass region, but all in all, not bad. And given the trade offs available in portable sound… the feeling of not listening to headphones and having a sense of tactile immersion was well worth the trade off in microdetail IMHO.

 If you ditched the Millet- the magic was gone, lose the V3 cable- and it was too harsh.

 Also I found upgrading to the Imod made things worse as the midrange of the imod in combination with the newly slightly recessed midrange of the V3 recable was too much and too much bass was created with the ALO Cyro Jumbo dock (Copper). The more forward 6th gen ipod midrange was more forward- and the bass lighter than the Imod so the presentation was more realistic.

 So- to me- this was still "portable"- barely, the Millet + Ed 9’s + iPod + 22 guage cyro dock. Not so much for critical listening- which for headphones I feel is just "ridiculous" compared to a good home rig. But it truly Rocked out. I own a high performance carbon fiber racing snowboard company- and rode with this combo every day this season… and it really got your blood pumping. I rode better/faster than I ever had before- and every run with this system gave me chills- even if for a day or two ran the same song over and over again(Bittersweet’s remixed “Dirty Laundry”). So while not the ultimate in high fidelity- it brought me much closer to the emotional potential of the music.

 This is not “too silly”.

 But admittedly, it was not true high fidelity either. Not by 21st century standards, but perhaps by 1985 standards.

 But with regards to the OP. 90% or perhaps 95% of portable audio is pretty silly. It’s just louder, perhaps a tad clearer, and allows you to drive higher quality or less efficient headphones so that the impedance doesn’t suck out the body and the bass and you get the benefit of running a better full sized headphone.

 I think it is worth it to run a predator or Mustang with large headphones, but I still don’t expect hi-fi. I get pretty good current mid-fi (Denon, Rotel, Cheaper MArtin Logans) or perhaps outdated hi-fi (which isn’t bad at all).

 The combo I found- NEVER gets listened to except while snowboarding (the Edition 9’s get too hot with exercise) or at times I use it on airplanes. If I were married with kids I might use it to drown out the 24/7 drone of the cartoon network or to do vaccuming. I use it when Dj’ing..on ocassion.

 But it still does not draw me into that "trance like state" of high fidelity sitting down. And in this regard the OP nailed it. BTW I met Luminette at the Denver Meet and we debated over this "portable" choice. He liked it too.

 Luminette hasn’t had enough time at his age with high fidelity to know what truly great sound is. I was one of the youngest audiophile customers Lyric Hi-Fi in NYC ever had 14 yrs old. It takes a long time to understand how one area of the frequency spectrum can affect another- how speaker placement and reflection affect sound, and equipment matching, reverberant times etc. an how to make the best of your trade offs. Your ears become trained as time goes on- and what might have taken days/weeks at (22 years old) first to dial in a system can be shorted to hours after a few decades. He has, though, understood the frustration of the stark realization of understanding “you can’t get there from here” and High end audio has many of these paths. Ever tried playing a full symphony orchestra full blast at 122 db through mini monitors? “You can’t get there from here”. How about trying to tune PA speakers for state of the art high fidelity sound “You can’t get there from here”. Or trying to get great off axis response from true electrostatic speakers…. Etc etc. etc.. Many paths exist to no where, with perhaps an inkling of an initial promise that they MIGHT lead to somewhere.

 However, at some point with some designs in high Fidelity.. YOU GET THERE. (oddly IMHO they are almost always hybrid designs of some type in the system that actually come close to delivering the best of both worlds without the drawbacks of both)

 In regards to the OP’s stance on "reviewers audio experience". I would argue he might be right about that. While some of the headophone reviewers have tons of experience with portable high fidelity and headphone set ups… IMHO likely most of them have never heard a true state of the art system- that was truly optimized for recreating the musical event. 

 The problem is.... once you hear a perfectly set up state of the art system- you won't ever want to bother with headphones unless you want to. and in that regard our reviewers might have more HEADPHONE experience than the reviewers of high end home speaker systems have with Headphones, and out head-fi might know the tradeoffs of headphones better- while actually the audio mag reviewers have had more experience in determining high end audio sound. Realistically if a reviewer has had a lot of experience with hi end home systems..he likely would spend as little time as possible listening to headphones. There are few reviewers that do not fall in this category..like Wes Phillips( the reviewer who never says anything negative and at times uses headphones for recording) but a true critical reviewer of merit.... well I would think they wouldn't bother much with headphones except as a curiosity.

 Frankly in most high fidelity stores, even the very best ones… I rarely hear a system that is optimized. I’ve listened over the past 3 decades to the top systems in Sound by Singer, Lyric Hi-Fi, Red Rose Music, Goodwin’s high End, Bang and Olufsen, Audio Studio, The Listening room, Goodwins Music, Harvey’s, Harvey’s Pro, Q Audio, Ocean State Audio, and out of all of them. Here are 3 different types of systems in those stores that “got me there”

 #1 Lyric Hi-Fi. (size and $$ no object- think “invasion of stone henge ”)
 Infinity Reference standard RS-1a’s in their lyric HF ultimate room with wave ceiling + Sota Star Sapphire turntable SME arm or Goldmenud studio with v3-f Arm and Koetsu Rosewood or Dynavector cartridges, Mark Levinson ML-3? Amps. I head Ruby by Donald Fagen played through there- was sold instantly. (everything sounds amazing (except badly recorded vinyl)- even types of music you thought you did not like become fascinating and listenable if recorded with reasonable skill)

 #2 Alan Goodwins Store on Newbury Street (in his home I think). (A “regular size system”)
 Quad ESL -63’s with tube amps, Linn turntable playing Emerson Lake and palmers “take a pebble” (fine so long as there is no heavy bass content) 

 #3 Ocean State Audio (mini monitor system- wife appropriate)
 ProAc Response 1sc biwired with Audio Research VT mark 2, Target mf 24 stands (lead shot filled), Wadia 861, Ray Charles “God Bless America” (good only for small ensembles of well recorded music)

 All of these MADE MUSIC. Anyone that came into the room looked shocked.

 Sadly, NO headphone system I have heard including the Stax …ever made music- they just “reproduced sound”. The closest using headphones in a portable set up in terms of feeling any sense of a “live event” has been the ED 9’s and Millet listening to the Eagles- Hotel California live… and it just sounded like a really well eq’d top quality outdoor PA system sitting 8th row center up in a cherry picker. (but for me…. “It got me there’”) it did not make music.. because I still felt like I was missing some nuances which were lost in the mixing board and PA speakers + venue…. But I did feel, for much much more than a moment..that I was “there” at the live amplified concert. Perhaps that is truly “Transportable”. It transported me there.

 Not silly at all, or I would not have bought it,

 but everything else I heard at the Denver Meet , no matter the price, did not sound like High Fidelity and did not convince me I was there (it just sounded a bit better- like spending more $$ on a lower cost hi-fi rig) ..and using THAT as a reference .. over 95% of all of “portable high fidelity” is silly…a pursuit that never leads you to the treasure. Startling so… the Pico and Predator all soundly trounced a RME Fireface 800 sound card… so there is definite value in terms of SQ per $ in portable audio. But in terms of SQ per Dollar. Just buy a Apogee mini Dac and be done with it- get a battery for it and it is transportable (barely).

 I’ve created better sound than all of the stores I have visited, and most of the time after I come and audition gear- they leave the system I dial in – and I can come back 2 weeks later and it is still set up the way I did it. I rarely buy much gear- because there are so few true advances- and at most of the stores I have NEVER bought gear , but they always are excited to see me and let me play around with the gear for as long as I like, and typically buy me lunch, feed my parking meter, and they never try to sell me anything, because in the end I do something for them they can not do well, make MUSIC.

 I now do high end audio in the Aspen Valley where I am not constrained in terms of budget to bring music into peoples homes. Sadly, no one else here can make music.

 But, when I try to explain to these customers what I do with their home system…. I whip out my ED 9’s with the Millet and iPod and explain…”It will sound much better than this” (placing the headphones on their heads) and that is enough to get the account. And in the end I play the exact same song on the headphones as on their speakers, let them compare, …and they realize I fulfilled my promise of getting them much much much further than some of the best Portable hi-fi.

 So that use of portable hi-fi is not “too silly”, but If I were to use an average portable headphone amplifier + iP od and say the px-100’s I truly doubt I would get any new accounts. Still I don’t bother to listen to my Edition 9’s unless I am engaged in another activity. Great Hi-fi MAKES you SIT DOWN, SIT STILL, and PAY ATTENTION. Just like a great singer makes people shut up and listen, while the average bar piano player is just background noise.

 IMHO buy a Hi-Fi home rig first (Unless you have kids- then go for Hi-end headphones), Then spend $$ on UE-11’s- or the Millet ED9 combo, and lastly spend money on Home headphone gear (unless you can’t make MUSIC at live levels in your home/dorm/condo).

 As for the OP wasting money…. It’s part of the learning process. Only once have I ever met a person who did not waste money- and it was recently, a former Washington DC lobbyist- who spent time hunting down experts for a living. He knew enough to know that having me buy and set up an all used gear “mini monitor system” for him was the most efficient expenditure of his money on audio gear, frankly…. Not a single dime wasted- and he “gets there from here” , immediately, not in decades.


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## ingwe

^^^ bravo sir.


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## Edwood

When reaching the summit, it's inevitable to have a dual set up.

 One Home set up. One Portable set up.

 For some it's a speaker rig at home, portable rig for on the go.

 For me, it's headphones at home AND on the go.

 A year ago, I would've dismissed a truly portable set up being enough as the only rig I could own.

 But with the JH13 and the HiFiMan HM-801, I can totally see myself living with purely that set up. Of course, along came the Smyth Research Realiser, and turned everything upside down. 

 I'm still not going with a serious speaker rig. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


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## koven

this is a great thread.. it should probably be stickied as a readme for new people, lol.


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Golden Ears* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought I would give my impressions about the pursuit of portable high Fidelity, even though I am not a long-term member of this website.

 snip..._

 

Just wow. Took me a couple of tries to read through all that.

 I believe I admitted at the meet that my iMod > Vcap dock > TTVJ Millett portable > Edition 9 was my transportable rig, as you presumed. Currently my transportable rig is smaller with iMod > Piccolino wire LOD > P-51 Mustang > ATH-ESW10JPN. I'm now only using the Vcap dock at home, since the Piccolino LOD is so transparent now, and soon the P-51 will be replaced with a Pico Slim or Shadow.

 My portable "every day carry" rig at the time of the meet was 3G Nano > Livewires customs (occasionally with Predator velcro'd to Nano). Now it is iPhone 3GS > JH Audio 13 Pro customs or ES3X customs with no amp.

 A little off topic now - as for the desktop rigs at that 2008 meet that you went to, I agree there were few super special rigs, but several sounded above average (in order of sound):

 (1) Music Hall 25.2 CDP > HR Balanced Desktop > HD600, 
 (2) Macbook > Apogee mini-DAC > Single Power Square Wave XL > HD600,
 (3) Macbook > Apogee mini-DAC > Woo GES > Sennheiser HE60 electrostatics and SR-Lambda Signature,
 (4) Macbook > Stello DA100 > Zana Deux > Sony MDR-10 and Grado HP-1000.

 At the 2009 meet there were several better sounding desktop rigs vs last year, and I did try to PM you to see if you could come but unfortunately we didn't see you there. We had better amps including a Woo WA22, Cary 300B amp, ALO Amphora and Eddie Current ZDT, running balanced phones like Senn HD800, AKG K1000, HP-1000 and modded Denon D7000 (most of which weren't at the previous meet). There was a very nice set of HE Audio Jade electrostatics to pair with the GES along with 11 different eletrostatic headphones; and there was a stock PS Audio Digital Link III feeding the ZDT and GES, with a Cullen Tech modded PS Audio DLIII feeding the HR Balanced Desktop, both of which sounded very good as desktop sources. Plus Ray Samuels brought the Sony MDR-10 again, and his new A-10 electrostatic amp fed by his Meridian CDP and driving the Stax O2 Mk1 and Sennheriser HE90 (performed much better with both of those phones than the ES-1 electrostatic amp did at the 2008 meet). I think this year you would have been less disappointed with the desktop headphone rigs. You should make it a point to go to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and CanJam in Denver this October, and then you can hear some good headphone rigs and 2 channel speaker rigs.

 Back on topic - the iPhone 3GS (or the new abbreviated iMod rig) with JH Audio 13Pro custom IEM are actually very close to a high-end desktop headphone rig now, while being totally portable. You might find yourself disliking your Edition 9 after these (I think even the ES3X and UE11Pro custom IEM are better than the Edition 9). You may also find the ATH-ESW10 supra-aural portable headphones to be more natural sounding than the Edition 9, and these weren't out last summer when you went to the meet (but now are pretty much a sold out limited edition item).


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## Anouk

Hello,
 Wow this thread is STILL going on after all these months? Truly a hot debate then. I agree what has been said above by edwood. I have a highend rig at home with headphones (I also have speakers but my power amp is still in repairs and i do use my speakers a lot less then my headphones) and I have a high end rig for on the road although it is stripped down a bit from what it was in the past. I think people just should do what feels good to them, you will make mistakes, thats life but if you dont experience stuff then what is the fun in life? 
 Greetings, Anouk,


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## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Golden Ears* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_snip_

 

I also agree about the speakers, usually not as much microdetail at the price level, but more emotionally involving surely.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should make it a point to go to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and CanJam in Denver this October, and then you can hear some good headphone rigs and 2 channel speaker rigs._

 

This sounds like really sound advice, you can then really say that you've heard electrostat and dynamic heard at least near their greatest fidelity yet. I wish that I could hear that.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Back on topic - the iPhone 3GS (or the new abbreviated iMod rig) with JH Audio 13Pro custom IEM are actually very close to a high-end desktop headphone rig now, while being totally portable. You might find yourself disliking your Edition 9 after these (I think even the ES3X and UE11Pro custom IEM are better than the Edition 9)._

 

It sounds too good to be true, but I can easily believe it now.


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## Nigel79

just cruising thru, I dont like LOD on my iPhone to my D10


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## markh78

It all depends when and where most of your listening times are.
 I listen to most of my music while commuting, so it makes sense for me to just go all for portable setup.
 All in all, everyone have different requirements, so stereotyping and dismissing the whole business is just silly.


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## jung

If with phones like KSC75, iGrado, ES7, etc., DAP sound at 4/10, and home amp at 9/10, where is portable amp? 5/10, or 8/10, or else?


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## fatman

_ Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jung* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
If with phones like KSC75, iGrado, ES7, etc., DAP sound at 4/10, and home amp at 9/10, where is portable amp? 5/10, or 8/10, or else?

 

_

 It is also depend on the power of the portable amp. AMP3 can sound at 8/10. for AMP3 is the only portable amp applying class A amp circuit design.

 BY the way, AMP3 is a DAP/DAC hybrid gear. for more information, please refer to this page on it's comments.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f15/am...8/index55.html


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## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jung* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If with phones like KSC75, iGrado, ES7, etc., DAP sound at 4/10, and home amp at 9/10, where is portable amp? 5/10, or 8/10, or else?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fatman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 It is also depend on the power of the portable amp. AMP3 can sound at 8/10. for AMP3 is the only portable amp applying class A amp circuit design.

 BY the way, AMP3 is a DAP/DAC hybrid gear. for more information, please refer to this page on it's comments.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f15/am...8/index55.html_

 

No, I am now hating rankings on a scale 0-10, but I would say a mid-level desktop amp is a 7/10, a maxed Woo WA6 with the best tubes is an 8/10, a Woo WA22 or Eddie Current ZDT is a 9/10, an Eddie Current Balancing Act or Headamp Blue Hawaii SE might be a 10/10. (examples only using amps I have heard)

 I consider many portables to be as good as a mid-level desktop amp, so anything 7/10 and above is decent to good hi-fi quality. A 6/10 is not necessarily a "poor" rating but should be the minimum to consider using, while a 5 is true low end "failing" and not for serious listening.


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## binkobonko

Well, I've been reading this thread for the past three days, and I'm said it's tailed off. So I'm stirring the pot, see?

 I've just taken delivery of a pair of Grado 325i's, and they make string quintet through my iMod and Hornet sound amaaazing. However, I have to admit I'm not so blown away by my more usual suspects of rock/pop music. 

 Soooo... Come on people - give me opinions. I love portable, but I'm also chasing that rainbow of true audiophile ecstasy that ends with me pulling a funny face and calling for a Kleenex. You know what I mean.

 Lisa III? UEM11's? AMB mini3? Or just plump for a decent home rig and discover what I'm missing? Money is relatively little object, so I'm attracted to a Solo SRG, XCan V3, whatever it takes to blow my mind.

 Because I neeeeeed to be carried away by sonic gold pouring through my ears and into my sad old mind.

 Don't we all?


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## ZephyrSapphire

True audiophile enjoyment should only be enjoyed with a home rig, where the world around you is quiet and the only thing you're doing is concentrating and enjoying the music. Not when you're on the go or somewhere where work needs to be done. IMO of course.

 So binkobonko. My say is get a home rig and leave all the heavy audiophile-ing at home. Just enjoy the portable-fi (PMP with IEMs/whateveryouplantouse) as;
 (In priority)
 1. A portable rig
 2. A source of enjoyment
 3. Audiophile-ing without sacrificing the first two, especially the first one.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *binkobonko* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I've been reading this thread for the past three days, and I'm said it's tailed off. So I'm stirring the pot, see?

 I've just taken delivery of a pair of Grado 325i's, and they make string quintet through my iMod and Hornet sound amaaazing. However, I have to admit I'm not so blown away by my more usual suspects of rock/pop music. 

 Soooo... Come on people - give me opinions. I love portable, but I'm also chasing that rainbow of true audiophile ecstasy that ends with me pulling a funny face and calling for a Kleenex. You know what I mean.

 Lisa III? UEM11's? AMB mini3? Or just plump for a decent home rig and discover what I'm missing? Money is relatively little object, so I'm attracted to a Solo SRG, XCan V3, whatever it takes to blow my mind.

 Because I neeeeeed to be carried away by sonic gold pouring through my ears and into my sad old mind.

 Don't we all?_

 

A TTVJ Millett Portable Hybrid would be a nice match for those SR325i, and sound about as good as other desktop tube hybrid amps with the Grados. That is the only portable I could recommend for them in good faith. 

 If you go desktop, the Cavalli CTH amp and EF2 are great budget amps for Grados and IEM, or the EF1 and Millett SSH if you don't need to use it with IEM (poor volume control). At a higher budget the SR-325i sounded great with my Woo WA6 and Single Power Square Wave XL (balanced) but don't buy an SP amp new (you'll never get it).

 Solo SRG will not be as good of a match with the SR-325i as with the RS-1 due to a very slight treble tilt to the sound, but was great with HD600 (but not HD00). The new SRG design should have better bass, but I haven't heard it.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ ... The new SRG design should have better bass, but I haven't heard it._

 

Larry, I received the new Solo SRGII on Wednesday (9/9/09) and it is burning in as I write this. I hope to log 500 hours and send it out to the same group of testers. I will include both Solo versions so a side by side could be performed, chances are I will include two identical IC's as well.


----------



## TheSatelliteGuy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A TTVJ Millett Portable Hybrid would be a nice match for those SR325i, and sound about as good as other desktop tube hybrid amps with the Grados. That is the only portable I could recommend for them in good faith. 

 If you go desktop, the Cavalli CTH amp and EF2 are great budget amps for Grados and IEM, or the EF1 and Millett SSH if you don't need to use it with IEM (poor volume control). At a higher budget the SR-325i sounded great with my Woo WA6 and Single Power Square Wave XL (balanced) but don't buy an SP amp new (you'll never get it).

 Solo SRG will not be as good of a match with the SR-325i as with the RS-1 due to a very slight treble tilt to the sound, but was great with HD600 (but not HD00). The new SRG design should have better bass, but I haven't heard it._

 

I really love my TTVJ tube portable. Last night I was listening to Jerry Garcia using the junkman amp with a portable sony dej885 cd player and Sunns 650 w/zu mobis and ALO cable and the awareness level of my listening was well above 90%. This amp is also just wonderful on my 3251 woody by JMoney with ALO recable. The amp needs several hundred hours of burn in and will allow you to hear to the deepest levels of your boundary of awareness. The Zenhead is another wonderful amp. I do find that my iQube does not allow me to dive deeper into music appreciation. My Xin SM4 maxed with upgraded opamps and maxed buffers is great but 12 month wait and about $650 in cost makes it a amp for those that can play that game. If you can not hear the improvement of a amp it is only that you have not traveled far enough on the path of awareness. It is like meditation. Just because you meditate doesn't mean you reach cosmic awareness.


----------



## binkobonko

Thanks for all comments. Todd has kindly offered to loan me a hybrid, which is amazingly nice, so I guess I'll get to hear that. The Woo looks like a serious piece of kit - there's a meet coming up in England soon, perhaps someone will bring one.

 In the meantime, I'll persevere with the Hornet - it does sound great with the SR60's


----------



## gilency

I use a Headsix with my ES3X running from my 6th Gen iPod Classic via LOD.
 Although there are differences between the headphone out vs the lod/amp sound, it is subtle and not as big as most people may think. I have listened to a variety of portable amps including the Mustang. They are nice, but a lot nicer or just a little?, IMHO, "just a little".


----------



## proteuskim

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yukihiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it may just be a bass boost, but i feel like it helps tame the highs from my 325i's. maybe the fiio just gives me a sound signature that i like, because i like how it sounds.

 i feel like my sansa fuze is sufficient as a dap... i guess it's time to get a pair of iem's. i probably won't be spending more than $100 on iem's since i'm probably going to abuse them as they'll be tossed in my backpack, unlike my full-sized headphones...

 ugh, i guess i do need iem's if i plan to listen to music in the library_

 

the E5 always enhances my listening experience. i even run it with my lisa III. its also a midrange boost if u slide the bassboost to center. which is important for me because my D7000s need that at times. if anything is a bargain its the E5. all that said, UE11s and FiiO E5 is prolly good enough for a portable rig. and i cant tell the difference between my cryo LOD and my $5.00 LOD i found on a rack in Yodobashi Camera.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *proteuskim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the E5 always enhances my listening experience. i even run it with my lisa III. its also a midrange boost if u slide the bassboost to center. which is important for me because my D7000s need that at times. if anything is a bargain its the E5. all that said, UE11s and FiiO E5 is prolly good enough for a portable rig. and i cant tell the difference between my cryo LOD and my $5.00 LOD i found on a rack in Yodobashi Camera._

 

You have committed a sin by allowing the E5 to contaminate the sound of the Lisa and UE11Pro. As penance you must send me your Lisa III and learn to live without it. 

 :-|


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## Jabba

I have a very nice home rig that sounds magical.
 The problem for me is that I live in a apartment building, with my wife and soon to be daughter. 
 So it´s not often I have the possibility to really enjoy my home rig.
 With my Iphone 3G-LOD-3Move-K272 I can enjoy wonderful sound by just putting my K272 on, anytime, anywhere. 
 The home rig is better, but to have the possibility to have this high SQ for so little money is nothing short of amazing. 

 That´s why I love portable Hi-Fi


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## TheMarchingMule

I too tried the portable rig thing, and in the end I realized how much more I can get from a desktop/home rig, sound quality wise, over portable stuff for a similar price point.

 But now that I have a job and am looking towards an iPod Touch and Pico Slim, I may just try this portable rig thing one last time.


----------



## TT600R

There is a A TTVJ Millett Portable Hybrid for sale.Askingprice is 350USD.
 I am asking myself if it is worth the upgrade,and should I go with the hassle of such a "big"portable...
 Maybe I should stick with my E5 and be happy.After reading the OP I thought,damn you are right.


----------



## 3X0

From an outsider's perspective, my father would consider it ridiculous if I spent even $100 on something with a form factor similar to the Pico. He would not find complaint if I dropped thousands on a desktop amp. After lugging around a few rigs I realize it was just (for me) pretentious and frankly unnecessary and I'd rather have just the source than all the extra crap for what amounts to a 2% boost.

 I'm very glad to have come upon this thread when I was just disappointed by the mediocre (if even tangible) gains to be had amping my 3GS's line-out.

 Now, desktops on the other hand..


----------



## GreenLeo

I've read a lot of opinions/experiences/suggestions here. Some of them are very valuable and I truly appreciate. 

 For me, portable fi is not silly. One of the joy of listening music is actually finding that you can literally hear more the source. Even though portable fi cannot offer the best music, if you can enjoy more when going from portable fi to speaker fi, it serves some purposes. Not everyone can enjoy a speaker system at home. There are constraints other than money as well. My humble portable system can transport me to 'there'. When I listen to some songs of Eva Cassidy with my portable rig, I feel that I'm in the pub and she's singing there when I close my eyes. Surely the experience is sublime to me. 

 You may have much better experience when using speakers. But the constraints of having a room with good acoustic properties is almost a must. I simply have no such luxury. There are lots of quantities in the equation of SQ for a set up. Think about the money and time one need to put in for the power conditioning, the ICs, the vibration controls, ...., etc make a lot of people being frustrated just because they can't have a good sounding system even if they are willing to put in money. Given that money and time needed to put it for a speaker system, I must say that I find the headphone system pretty cost effective.

 For music lovers, portable fi certainly may be used to promote music or the enjoyment of music because it's easier for us to share fantastic experiences. So why not?


----------



## estreeter

GreenLeo, I think the OPs main objection (from memory) was the fanaticism with which many try to duplicate the quality of a good home rig by buying seemingly endless gear. I am extremely wary of the portable amp - not because I doubt the capabilities of something like the RSA or iBasso portables, but because I dont want to be carrying that all that kit around with me. I do think there is a future in an office setup like a netbook connected to a good DAC/amp, but again you have to ask yourself when you are simply overcapitalising in order to get something which *might* be better than one of the top shelf DAPs. I applaud the HiFiMan, but I'm not sure how realistic it is in production terms. 

 End of the day, we all decide how we are going to spend our money, and I appreciate that many love the fact that their entire rig fits in a small carrycase : for that matter, I could pack my laptop and the Topaz in a backpack and be listening to it in a hotel room in Singapore this time tomorrow night - just not sure that the reward would justify the effort.


----------



## FugaziDave

I'm a photographer by trade, and I end up on the road a lot and always carrying an assload of already-too-expensive equipment. To me, the beauty and joy of the meager portable setup I've been using is that, compared to the pedestrian means I used before, the results are freaking incredible. For a few hundred dollars, I have the ability to listen to music (which is incredibly important to me) on the road, and do so easily with a kind of quality that makes a big difference to me. No, it's not the same as a badass home setup, but it's also tiny by comparison, so much less expensive as to be laughable, and it all fits nicely into a single small pocket in my camera bag. 

 I think that's just wonderful. I won't claim to know all that much about any of this stuff in technical terms. I'm not an audiophile, so to speak, but music and quality are both very important to me, and my portable setup works quite nicely. I have no complaints.


----------



## techenvy

loved your review, wish i would have read it sooner, everything is way overpriced, im sure however there must still be a few good portable options, but like u said pocket amps donot sound as good as regular headamps, at least imo, im not going to comment on how much i spent on my pocket amp, itll just piss me off, but i will tell you it was easily more than twice the price as my head amp/dac, and dosent sound as good. so my best advice for the pocket amp connoisseur is to get something cheap, cuz regardles of how much you spend on your pocket amP, you may be dissappoted with the sq, or at leastt in my case dissapoined with the lack of bass, also if you never heard your cans on a descent head amp you you wont know what youll be missing.
 ----also i agree with your lod assesssent, rip off, however i do prefer hand made goods, most i spent was 40 on an lod, more than that is a waste, unless of course it has neon lights with spinners, than by all means...

 note, listen to some really nice cans on your pocket amp and then swich to your head amp, then it is clear

 if anyone knows of some pocket amps that do sound a good as head amps, let me know. also what are some cheaper alternatives with just as good sq.


----------



## 129207

Excellent write-up! I enjoyed it very much and find much truth in your words. Also, the use of the word "poop" made me smile. Reviews would be much more to the point (&shorter!) if people just used this word more often. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Sticky-worthy if you ask me.


----------



## ibis99

I'm happy with my Touch 3g, ER4s and Total Airhead. I will be happier with my JH13 and Lisa 3, but at the same time I will be disappointed. I've learned that my expectations are always higher than the end result. I've come to accept that. I would feel the same with a home rig. 

 I totally understand your point, and in many ways agree, but I'm just not ready to let go.


----------



## shigzeo

i agree fully with this thread, and at the same time, i realise why people spend money even if the object isn't worth it/is way too overpriced. the point is that people have hobbies; if it isn't headphones/portable audio, it will be going to the movies (a hobby which adds up much faster if you don't live in the USA). I am also an avid table tennis/badminton/football player and to tell you the truth, my rank in table tennis is at the bottom of national competency. What it means to me to buy a nice bat and rubber is nothing next to the person who can really use it.

 and, will I ever know the difference? No way - I know this for truth because my abilities are not up there. With portable Audio, many proper DIY outfits do as good or better a job because their overhead is less and they are willing to take more risks as they probably have a day job. 

 But, if someone wants to spend more on an ALO,PICO, etc., though it may or may not perform better, why not? I love design and one thing many of the more expensive makers have is good design. If I am roaming around with my portable setup, I want it to look good - to me that is important. I assume it is to others too. Then, there are some amps which have a different level of performance, if not being too expensive for the feature set. 

 I agree that the vast majority is way too expensive, but so too is the home music setup business. It is all business and if that is where you want to throw your money -- whether you like me cannot use the better bat (audio equipment) or not doesn't matter -- that is your prerogative.

 Still, I am as happy going around with my headphones/iems and an iPod as I am with a much more expensive setup.


----------



## janchadley

wait ah minute....after reading the original post....you need to read it again and squint your eyes....I'm calling it out. Its absolute rubish! Did this guy just convince you that you shouldn't spend money on portable amps? Did he just convince you that his px100's straight out from the ipod provides all you need for portable audio? rubish! and you all know it. 

 First thing, what are you comparing home rigs to portables for? Not many would argue that the best portable could compete with the best home set up. Duh? However, the same contrast can be found from the px100/ipod set up to any well arranged portable IPOD/LOD/expensive amp/audiophile headphone quartet. It is this dramatic difference that compells the few of us who can hear to spend the bucks. 

 Second, the over priced thingy. What else is new? Everything is overpriced. Do you really think that these portable amp makers are getting rich? You've forgotten just how rare the distiguished listener is. How many people actually own a Pico, RSA, or whatever? It can't be many in comparison and they are all probably on this site. I have yet to see another person with a "rig", as you say, while commuting to work or anywhere outside of my circle of audiophile friends. 99% of the world can't even tell when their amp is clipping, they're not going to shell out money for this stuff. 

 But we are, because we Can hear the difference and are willing to pay the price for it. 

 Bottom line, Portable audio rocks! Its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Only a few years ago this wasn't even possible before big hard drives made it possible to carry around uncompressed files and you were walking around with this silly walkman that played one tape or you were gently carrying around your portable cd so it wouldn't skip. 

 Px100's straight out the IPOD?!?!?! You almost had me fooled, I think you fooled yourself. Dude, you are fortunate to have so much time to spend at home to get lost in your home set up. I have children! I have a life! You need to get out more, lol. Only partly kidding. 

 Does portable audio have its limitations? Sure, but so does your home set up. It requires time. I have about 5 such uninterupted hours a week if I'm dreaming! Portable audio provides me with about 10 times this much time and therefore enjoyment. And make no mistake, You can get an F of ah lot of bliss out of a well matched portable combo at an amazingly high level of hifi. 

 Finally, and I don't even know why you brought up the LOD argument. The connector arguement has been going on as long as their has been Hifi. I remember when I was a car audio installer and for fun my shop put together a system and wired it both with the highest quality connectors/cables and put in some serious listening to it and then left the components and rewired it with the cheapest junk we could find. None of us could hear a real difference. I can tell the difference, however, between having LOD and a mini to mini.

 the thread has served to be an excellent educational tool, but the real point makes no sense. If given the ability to have both, you're not going to listen to your portable rig at home and you're not going to listen to home rig on the go...unless you've got a really good generator on a dolly...cuz that makes sense? Its interesting how sometimes posters dont realize that in describing other's motives to express their vibrato they are really doing the same exact thing! From a factual standpoint, everything stated in the original post is very well informed...it just doesn't support the point. Maybe it works for him since he never leaves the house...as for me, Im listening to my portable as I write this and wondering how long it is going to take me to save up for the RSA that I want and whether or not I can stand the anticipation as it sits on back order. 

 Sorry, had to get this off my chest...carry on....


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## estreeter

The OP is now 2 years old, and there have been quite a few new toys released for fans of portable audio in that time. I still agree with the contention that spending several thousand on portable kit, only to realise that you could have had a very nice desktop rig for the same money, is somewhat crazy, but how many of us have a crystal ball ? 

 If anything, most of the longtime regulars in this forum seem to have both : all I know is that I cant put my integrated amp in a backpack and take it to Singapore with me in 3 weeks time. Portable head-fi may well be silly, but it beats listening to a pair of iBuds from a Nano hands down.


----------



## janchadley

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The OP is now 2 years old, and there have been quite a few new toys released for fans of portable audio in that time. I still agree with the contention that spending several thousand on portable kit, only to realise that you could have had a very nice desktop rig for the same money, is somewhat crazy, but how many of us have a crystal ball ? 

 If anything, most of the longtime regulars in this forum seem to have both : all I know is that I cant put my integrated amp in a backpack and take it to Singapore with me in 3 weeks time. Portable head-fi may well be silly, but it beats listening to a pair of iBuds from a Nano hands down._

 

Agreed, but the post is only really just one year old, right? 10-21-08, right? Not THAT much has changed sinced then, the set up Im listening to right now is that old. 

 And yes, if you are building a portable system as an alternative and end up spending 2 grand, well that maaayyy not make sense. Has anyone really done that?


----------



## estreeter

I have little doubt that the portable gear in some of the sigs here would easily go past 2k USD, and I agree that its only a little over one year old : I am already mentally living in 2010, it would seem 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The JH13 hooked up a to a quality DAC/amp combination in a 'transportable' backpack rig would be about as far as I can imagine anyone taking it, but Head-Fi is full of surprises.


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## janchadley

Yeah, well thats the thing, portable head-fi is limited by the lack of broad scale interest. Apple or Microsoft are unlikely to try and market an IPOD or zune with a bad arze integrated amp and try and sell it for a grand or something. I would like to see more contemporary designs though. Fiio's new one is about the only thing that looks like it would compliment an ipod nicely. Everything else looks like a square toaster or flask. I mean the Iqube looks like a flask, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And yep, I'm eventually going to have a $2k portable rig. right now its a $1k rig. But I didn't buy it as an alternative to a home set. I spent a grand because it makes the most sense for my lifestyle. I meant, who spends 2k on a portable as an alternative to a home rig? Does anyone actually do THAT, is what I mean?


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## LeeMark

A lot has changed in a year. Size has diminished signficantly. The Shadow and JH13 were not around a year ago, and with an ipod or Nano, or even an iMod with the caps in the LOD, the quality is approaching home rig status (check out all the JH13 reviews), even though a home rig with speakers is not reproducible in a portable rig. The question is not whether it can't be done, it is how much you want to pay and how much is it worth it to you, I have little time, due to various reasons, to listen to my home system, but having a portable rig that I can listen to most of the day of such high quality lightens everything about my day and keeps me very happy.


----------



## manaox2

I had near a $4K portable rig at one time. And I agree with the Op. He recommended that people ditch the portable amp in favor of better phones and a more compact setup. He recommended just an iPod and UE11 which was the best at the time. I eventually went that route after four or so portable amps and completely agree.

 Things have changed a bit. With the ALO Rx or Pico Slim, I wouldn't have any problem carrying it with me and that makes it tempting. The LISA III and HD650 is a bit extreme. Most portable amps at the time were not very pocketable and those that were were not a huge improvement. Most portable phones don't require too much of an amplification. If your portable phones aren't in the four digits, don't spend more on an amp then your source or phones. Don't spend $200 on a 4 inch simple cable. It definitely made sense at the time of its writing and still can ring true today with most rigs. I'm still certain that a JH13 with just an iPod variation or even Sansa clip would murder most rigs, even more expensive rigs you could make. It helps to put things in perspective, and saying that the amps are clipping is a bit of an overstatement (digital source clipping is fairly obvious).


----------



## GreenLeo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_GreenLeo, I think the OPs main objection (from memory) was the fanaticism with which many try to duplicate the quality of a good home rig by buying seemingly endless gear. I am extremely wary of the portable amp - not because I doubt the capabilities of something like the RSA or iBasso portables, but because I dont want to be carrying that all that kit around with me. I do think there is a future in an office setup like a netbook connected to a good DAC/amp, but again you have to ask yourself when you are simply overcapitalising in order to get something which *might* be better than one of the top shelf DAPs. I applaud the HiFiMan, but I'm not sure how realistic it is in production terms. 

 End of the day, we all decide how we are going to spend our money, and I appreciate that many love the fact that their entire rig fits in a small carrycase : for that matter, I could pack my laptop and the Topaz in a backpack and be listening to it in a hotel room in Singapore this time tomorrow night - just not sure that the reward would justify the effort._

 

Hi estreeter,

 Thanks for the reply. Have left this thread for a long time and didn't realize of your reply.

 No, I never have that fanaticism and would not purchase endless gears. Just want to share my idea of the other dimensions of using the portable apart from the absolute SQ dimension only. Also even if people are using home speaker system, the phenomenon of purchasing endless gears in order to replicate the sound stage of a concert, ... etc still exists. If this is main objection of the OP, I can't see how leaving portable fi may solve the problem.

 By the way the HiFiMan 801 is really worth a try. Cheers.


----------



## 5aces

A thread that has a reasonable idiom,"cool your horses."

 Someone is to wait for a moment. 

 It is usually followed up with an explanation to demonstrate why they should wait.

 "You haven't thought about this yet."

 A ring of truth and a good read on here.

 Thanks,from someone who was on the brink of going overboard...


----------



## dwonk

It was definitely a good read and something to keep in mind for those of us that have a tendency to obsess over hobbies. I have actually been lurking for quite a while on Head-Fi and just recently bought a D10 (after craigslisting my home stereo). In fact, this is my first post in over two years. My reasons for going for 'portablity' has nothing to do with lugging around a brick worth of gear on the Yamanote Line but to scale my posessions down to a managable size. I personally think the portable market has turned a corner with the advent of the Hifiman and D10. I chose the latter due to costs and my obsession with mods (op-amp rolling).


----------



## ]eep

I enjoyed reading the OP very much. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Why tote around a brick? Why pay exorbitant prices for way to large profit margins on that brick wrapped in marketing jargon when you can have 90% of the performance at a reasonable price. 

 I'm not buying the hyperbole anymore. I just bought a mobile phone, 8 GB in it, AAC encoded incl equalization, E5+RE0 and it's really enjoyable and true hifi. The cost is €12.50 monthly for the phone + €100. 
 I can take a whole library in cd's, books, movies and photo's with me in the size of a candybar and a hockey puck (IEM case). And it lasts me a week without a charge. 

 Does that mean I'm in or out portable hifi? Call it what you want, I'm really happy with it.


----------



## estreeter

Jeep, there is a lot of snobbishness in hi-fi, but I doubt that most Head-Fiers would agree that your mobile phone represents 'true hi-fi'. Most of us are enjoying mid-fi, at best : as much as I love my X and my phones, I dont try to tell myself that it is 'hi-fidelity'. I agree that spending 10 times as much wouldnt guarantee me ten times the return in outright sound quality, but I've heard a few serious speaker rigs that would have many on Head-Fi wetting their pants. In my case, that didnt happen until I saw the sticker price on each of the components.


----------



## Maxvla

Amazing that this thread is still quite active...

 A year later I'm still 100% behind the OP. I've just read a dozen pages or so past where I stopped reading previously and astounded by the lengths people will go to justify carrying bricks around with them.

 A point I'd like to make (which may have been posted in this thread previously).. People that are speaker-philes hate on headphone-philes due to improper soundstaging (mostly) which is absolutely true. The IEM, on the other hand, is an order of magnitude worse still with regard to soundstage than even standard headphones. You are isolated from the acoustics around you (unlike with open full size cans) which, though near silent at home, are still there and reinforce soundstage. IEMs have a *literal* soundstage of about 1 centimeter. There's only so many things you can do with 1 cm and producing a soundstage that's anywhere near full size headphones much less speakers is not one of them.

 1. Compromised soundstage - check (ironically a fixed #1 accentuates #2)
 2. Compromised isolation - check (ironically a fixed #2 accentuates #1)

 These 2 problems alone begs the question the OP is trying to get everyone to see. Portable music is destined to cycle between #1 and #2 forever. This means portable music will NEVER be hi-fi (high end, whatever you want to call it).

 The answer is to see portable music for what it is, a filler for silence, not something you devote your entire attention to. You are working, traveling, doing research at the library, not trying to decide if Menuhin just did an up bow or down bow to open the 3rd variation in some concerto.

 Muzak sucks, but it serves it's purpose, filling silence. Take from this that _anything_ is better than silence, but spending for more than a simple player and portable headphones when you aren't even paying attention to it is WASTEFUL.


----------



## jjsoviet

Well, I can certainly agree that any portable setup will never be Hi-Fi; it's reserved for home audio and high-end components. However, people still invest in upgrading their portable setups for them to enjoy music, as close to what they perceive as "Hi-Fi" as possible. Even the most intricate setups are mid-fi at best, but that may be enough for people to enjoy and spend their resources on.

 Just my two cents.


----------



## A_Dying_Wren

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Maxvla* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IEMs have a *literal* soundstage of about 1 centimeter. There's only so many things you can do with 1 cm and producing a soundstage that's anywhere near full size headphones much less speakers is not one of them.

 1. Compromised soundstage - check (ironically a fixed #1 accentuates #2)
 2. Compromised isolation - check (ironically a fixed #2 accentuates #1)

 These 2 problems alone begs the question the OP is trying to get everyone to see. Portable music is destined to cycle between #1 and #2 forever. This means portable music will NEVER be hi-fi (high end, whatever you want to call it).

 The answer is to see portable music for what it is, a filler for silence, not something you devote your entire attention to. You are working, traveling, doing research at the library, not trying to decide if Menuhin just did an up bow or down bow to open the 3rd variation in some concerto.

 Muzak sucks, but it serves it's purpose, filling silence. Take from this that anything is better than silence, but spending for more than a simple player and portable headphones when you aren't even paying attention to it is WASTEFUL._

 

You do get some really good combinations of soundstage and isolation. One which I shall fondly remember is the combination of IE8s and complys. Pretty darn good isolation and a wide soundstage comparable to some headphones supposedly. 

 Not all hi-fi is about soundstage and some IEMs do positioning and detail very well but I probably would concur that most set-ups are mid-fi at best but I think the JH13s give headphones a good run for their money. Also depends how you define hi-fi. If listening to the real thing in concert is hi-fi then the best B52/HD800 rigs may be mid-fi at best .

 And idk... i find most cheaper earphones give me fatigue after a while and I guess so do others. That definition of "cheaper" would of course differ.


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## markh78

Everyone have so many different requirements when it comes to listening to music, it's just so silly to think that just because portables didn't fit for you, it wouldn't fit anyone else.


----------



## jjsoviet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markh78* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Everyone have so many different requirements when it comes to listening to music, it's just so silly to think that just because portables didn't fit for you, it wouldn't fit anyone else._

 

QFT

 Your ears are not ours, simple as that. Preferences, people. Preferences.


----------



## estreeter

We need to remind ourselves that, for many traditional audio nuts, the idea of basing a rig around *any* pair of headphones would seem bizarre. This thread could just as easily have been titled 'Leaving Head-Fi : its just too silly' ......


----------



## janchadley

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We need to remind ourselves that, for many traditional audio nuts, the idea of basing a rig around *any* pair of headphones would seem bizarre. This thread could just as easily have been titled 'Leaving Head-Fi : its just too silly' ......_

 

Well said. 

 Im truly amazed at this thread. Its the kind of arguement I would expect from my co-workers. 

 First, let me say, any label such as High Fi or Mid Fi or whatever is purely subjective. There is no need to label or quantify it. The quality of music reproduction is complex and varies dramatically between the least advanced and most advanced electronics. There is no magical piont where the meter starts to blink and a red light comes on with a voice saying, "Warning, you have now crossed the hifi threshold, please prepare to wet your pants". There is, however, certain expectations audiophiles have from their sound without which would easily disqualify equiment from being called, "hifi". And good portable audio can best MOST of those qualifiers. 

 IMHO, if you are a true audiophile, you love two things...Music and sound (electronics being either the gateway drug or byproduct for the above). And by love it, I mean LOVE it. F/E, I would suggest that a true audiophile may fom time to time find themselves listening to a song completely through, even though they didn't care for the song itself because the recording really accentuated the sound quality of their rig via the quality of the signal, instrumentation and/or whatever of that particular recording. 

 Point being, it sounds oh so good. And, as a result, it makes you feel oh so good. What I have found is this, an IPOD+buds or Target brand headphones can sound pretty decent. Enough to enjoy the music. However, slap a brick on some cans and, in my personal experience, the pure enjoyment goes up big time. There are portable amps out there that in combination with the right headphones that simply sound amazing. Add 4 hours a day of commuting, traveling or whatever, and you just added 4 hours a day of extra enjoyment to your life! Thats not worth a grand or two?

 Here's where the personal preference comes in, is the increased amount of goose bumps you get worth the extra money you spend and the extra inconvenience you experience carrying around a brick? For me, Hell yes. 

 What confuses me is that a true audiophile would spend the bucks on a home unit because the standard Kenwood reciever doesn't fit the bill, so much so that they spend thousands. But, then they think portable audio equipment is silly even though the difference in sound quality is equally as dramatic, maybe more so, as a good and bad home audio. 

 BTW, the brick is not that big a deal. I have even found it managable to mountain bike with it on. 

 What am I missing here? Maybe its what YOU are missing!


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## Blasto_Brandino

I'm combining a pair of HD800's with a Lisa III XP with a walkman X1061 w/ a $30 lineout (I found a Case Logic brand camera bag that works quite well for this). This is probably as close to portable HIFI as I'll get, and I'm happy with that (that and I just dumped >$2,000 on a portable/transportable rig WHY?!?!) And when the Portacode comes out, I'm going to buy one of them, and trudge it around (I'm TOTALLY going to look like a circa 70's reporter dragging a tape recorder sized amp around)
  WHY do I do this? because it is the only thing that will get me away from my speakers, and some social life, is better than no social life at all.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> I'm combining a pair of HD800's with a Lisa III XP with a walkman X1061 w/ a lineout (I found a Case Logic brand camera bag that works quite well for this). *This is probably as close to portable HIFI as I'll get*, and I'm happy with that (that and I just dumped >$2,000 on a portable/transportable rig WHY?!?!) And when the Portacode comes out, I'm going to buy one of them, and trudge it around (I'm TOTALLY going to look like a circa 70's reporter dragging a tape recorder sized amp around)
> WHY do I do this? because it is the only thing that will get me away from my speakers, and some social life, is better than no social life at all.


 

 My portable setup is closer.


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## Blasto_Brandino

to each their own, but I'm not gonna get in to a IEM vs Full sized can war.
  wait until the portacode comes out, and I can use most ANY dynamic headphones on the go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  That and I get F A R better battery life, even though my gear is bigger.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> to each their own, but I'm not gonna get in to a IEM vs Full sized can war.
> wait until the portacode comes out, and I can use most ANY dynamic headphones on the go
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sound Quality > Battery Life.


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## Blasto_Brandino

This rig will get about 30hours, yours, 8, 10 tops. As for the 1061 vs the 801, I dunno, I don't think anyone has compared them.  And you don't want to get into a war about HD800's VS JH13's they're too different. And does the HM-801 have a line-out? And trust me, If I wanted an 801, I'd buy an 801. I don't think the Lisa XP and the 801 would fit together in the camera case I've bought for the rig.... Still saving for the Markl Adrenaline cable for the 800's, buy it next month.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> This rig will get about 30hours, yours, 8, 10 tops. As for the 1061 vs the 801, I dunno, I don't think anyone has compared them.  And you don't want to get into a war about HD800's VS JH13's they're too different. And does the HM-801 have a line-out? And trust me, If I wanted an 801, I'd buy an 801. I don't think the Lisa XP and the 801 would fit together in the camera case I've bought for the rig.... Still saving for the Markl Adrenaline cable for the 800's, buy it next month.


 

 8 hours is more than good enough for me. I don't listen to music for more than 5 hours a day. Here is a DAP comparison review headfonia created with the HiFiMAN and the Sony X1060 as two of the few DAP's compared. I've heard the HD800's through a Grace M902 and though I do love the size of the soundstage the HD800's threw at me, I preferred the JH13 Pro's for every other aspect of the sound including detail. Yes, the HiFiMAN has a line out that my RSA Protector feeds off of. Like I've said before, I prefer sound quality to battery life and size. My rig is smaller overall and has less battery life but it's no doubt it sounds better.


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## Blasto_Brandino

As I said to each their own, I'm not getting into a war about HD800's vs JH13's they're too different (and a matter of personal preference),
   
  "but it's no doubt it sounds better."
  You'd want to avoid making a claim that bold, it boils down to personal preference, I listen to quite a bit of classical music, Transcribed some of it from vinyl myself, I need my sound stage (Opera FTW) and the goal of all recorded music is to be as close as possible to the original source (pulled that right off the HD800 page @sennheiser.com 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) I find bigger cans to a better job of that for me (and trust me classical music through the HD800's is pretty damn close.) I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
   
  And when the portacode is ready (can't wait!) it is essentially a full sized amp, but portable, the size will justify using a CD player (most likely a Sony D-EJ925, It's slim, has optical and 3.5 lineouts and I have quite a few of them) and an external DAC, and THAT, I'm afraid most portable rigs can't touch.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> As I said to each their own, I'm not getting into a war about HD800's vs JH13's they're too different (and a matter of personal preference),
> 
> "but it's no doubt it sounds better."
> You'd want to avoid making a claim that bold, it boils down to personal preference, I listen to quite a bit of classical music, Transcribed some of it from vinyl myself, I need my sound stage (Opera FTW) and the goal of all recorded music is to be as close as possible to the original source (pulled that right off the HD800 page @sennheiser.com
> ...


 
  Listen to a pair of demo JH13's or JH16's and you'll think otherwise of the HD800's.


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## Blasto_Brandino

I heard a pair of Westone ES3X's through an arrow (they were molded for the owner, but they did seal, not too comfortable though) I liked the detail, loved the vocals, the "air" but the bass didn't go as deep (anywhere near as deep) and the soundstage was simply inadequate for the music I listen too. My speaker system can project sound along the ceiling, the walls, behind me, and they go down to 17hz (Talon Khorus's ) IEM's can't match that, the HD800's come closer, and closer is what it is all about to me.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> I heard a pair of *Westone ES3X's* through an arrow (they were molded for the owner, but they did seal, not too comfortable though) I liked the detail, loved the vocals, the "air" but the bass didn't go as deep (anywhere near as deep) and the soundstage was simply inadequate for the music I listen too. My speaker system can project sound along the ceiling, the walls, behind me, and they go down to 17hz (Talon Khorus's ) IEM's can't match that, the HD800's come closer, and closer is what it is all about to me.


 
  Listen to a pair of demo JH13's or JH16's and you'll think otherwise of the HD800's.


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## Blasto_Brandino

I guess I'll have to...


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## Blasto_Brandino

They have a preferred audiologist in Beverly Hills, I'll go there Monday, and we'll see....
  But for the record, for large headphones, the Protector is NOT better than a Lisa III, and I'm a Ray Samuel fan, I like the SR-71.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> They have a preferred audiologist in Beverly Hills, I'll go there Monday, and we'll see....
> But for the record, for large headphones, the Protector is *NOT* better than a Lisa III, and I'm a Ray Samuel fan, I like the SR-71.


 

 Yep, they're pretty much tied in sound quality. The Protector throws a slightly bigger sound stage and better instrument separation due to being balanced and the Lisa has a slightly more neutral sound. But the Protector is very, very small compared to the huge long brick ( Lisa III ).


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## Blasto_Brandino

The Lisa III has more power, and when you're running 300Ohm cans, it's sorta important. Drive my HD650's nearly as well as my Luxman P200 did (sold it to help finance the new equipment) My experience with high impedance headphones states that if they are bright, or muddy, you are not juicing them enough, and I read a review where the reviewer ran a pair of HD650's Balanced on a protector, and they were bright, so the protector was not running them adequately.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> The Lisa III has more power, and when you're running 300Ohm cans, it's sorta important. Drive my HD650's nearly as well as my Luxman P200 did (sold it to help finance the new equipment) My experience with high impedance headphones states that if they are bright, or muddy, you are not juicing them enough, *and I read a review where the reviewer ran a pair of HD650's Balanced on a protector, and they were bright, so the protector was not running them adequately.*


 

 Was the Protector burned in? Are you sure he was running it balanced? Everyone is saying how the Protector drives the HD600, HD650 and AKG702 wonderfully. Also, the Protector can even drive the HD800. The Protector has about 16.8 volts of swing and over 250ma for each channel. The Protector is powerful. The Protector can drive Full Sized Cans but yet, Full Sized Cans aren't meant to leave your house. Their cables are about 9ft long and the size of the headphones themselves are huge. To top it off, open back Full Sized Cans offer zero isolation, not suitable for portable use. Even though my Protector can push a pair of HD800's I wouldn't be caught walking outside with Full Sized Cans. My JH13 Pro in balanced configuration is just mind blowing how this sound comparable to the best of the best Full Sized Cans is in such a small package.


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## Blasto_Brandino

HD800's are 300ohm cans, anything that runs the 650's well, will run the 800's. Portable is a relative term, I gave up the common definition of "portable" when I bought the Lisa III, When I walk around, I wear my CD2000's and I have no problems with isolation, the HD800's are more transportable, but if I'm somewhere quiet (and safe) I'd consider taking them outside. The custom cord I'm buying is going to be 1.2m 4ft long, and it quite flexible, so it isn't a problem. I'll try the JH13's and I'll get back to you.


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## Deep Funk

I am lucky my home set up has been quite cheap, although finding the right headphones was not cheap. 
   
  For the outdoors I usually rely on my trusty Sennheiser HD428 in combination with my Nokia or Clip +. The HD428 sounds already good without amplification so it does not need it. My Panasonic RP-HTX7 sounds only just acceptable without amplification and the humble Fiio E5 really helps, the cMoy BB V2.02 even more. In addition to that the RP-HTX7 is not streamlined enough for bicycle travels so it is more suitable for public transport travels. The HD428 is suitable for both situations.
   
  Just keep it simple...


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## 3X0

Way to defeat the purpose of this very venerable (dare I say _classic_) thread.
   
  All you need for portable playback is any relatively decent player and an amazing set of IEMs. High-end headphones that operate well with low output will get you much farther than any high-end player will, so it's very necessary to throw most of your budget at the headphones. Only if you've maxed the headphones out should you pursue should you spend big money on the player.
   
  And with this philosophy in mind, even the HiFiMan is a player I could appreciate. It's big and the battery life sucks, but it's standalone and self-contained. 
   
  As soon as you throw in the portable amplifier you've suffered from an egregious loss of both the sensibility of portable audio and the concept of value. It is at this point a similar investment in a desktop setup will fare you MUCH better. Consider this: the iBasso D4 USB amp/DAC sounds better via USB than it does amping (most) portables. If you'd invested the money spent on the player on a solid desktop amplifier instead, you'd get a sound far more worthy of admiration. Desktop amplifiers provide substantially more sound per dollar than any portable amplifiers do. Ray Samuel's desktop amplifiers, even at their substantial prices, make the value of his portable line seem like a _joke_.
   
  To this end portable DAC/amps redeem themselves in their use as actual USB DACs, and not as amplifiers. But portable amplifiers don't represent any semblance of good value whatsoever.
   
  If you're lugging around such a complex setup for actual on-the-go usage I'd have to question your sanity and obsession with this hobby. I can barely understand this kind of setup for a relaxing sojourn in the backyard hammock, but to try to appreciate the finer details and nuance in any truly _portable_ application (i.e. out and about) is actually something I'd contend _betrays_ the ideals of this hobby rather than espouses them.
   
  The question of superior portable HiFi setups is silly when the same investment in desktop components will get you something that just sounds better.


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## Deep Funk

For listening to new CDs on the train for instance the discman comes along. Still, do not overcomplicate the portable set up. I might try a portable Amplifier/DAC combination but it has to be reliable and simple to operate. Only if the sound improvement would be dramatic I would consider it making it a daily operation. But if my HD428 lasts long enough, why overcomplicate the portable set up?
   
  You can always try and dedicate a write up to the experience. I prefer my simple portable set up for the time being.


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## 3X0

Quote: 





deep funk said:


> For listening to new CDs on the train for instance the discman comes along. Still, do not overcomplicate the portable set up. I might try a portable Amplifier/DAC combination but it has to be reliable and simple to operate. Only if the sound improvement would be dramatic I would consider it making it a daily operation. But if my HD428 lasts long enough, why overcomplicate the portable set up?
> 
> You can always try and dedicate a write up to the experience. I prefer my simple portable set up for the time being.




​
  I find your portable setup more worthy of respect than most of the convoluted setups posted in the "Pictures of your Portable Rig" threads.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> Way to defeat the purpose of this very venerable (dare I say _classic_) thread.
> 
> All you need for portable playback is any relatively decent player and an amazing set of IEMs. High-end headphones that operate well with low output will get you much farther than any high-end player will, so it's very necessary to throw most of your budget at the headphones. Only if you've maxed the headphones out should you pursue should you spend big money on the player.
> 
> ...


 

 If this whole post was referring to me. You haven't heard my setup, so your whole post is meaningless. I find my setup of complete value because it is versatile. It's my home, portable and travel rig. The HiFiMAN contains a DAC inside comparable to the DAC's found in a Benchmark DAC1, Grace M902, Lavry DA11, etc...Right off the bat the HiFiMAN's huge size to some isn't so huge anymore packing the sound quality of a full size DAC costing $1,000+. The RSA Protector has been said to outperform home amplifiers costing in the $1,000 range. The RSA Protector is good enough to be used as a battery powered home balanced amplifier. You already know how amazing the JH13 Pro's are, comparable to the best of the best headphones. Add this combo up and you have probably the best sounding versatile rig ever. Worth every penny at over $3,000.


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## 3X0

Quote: 





sonic 748i said:


> If this whole post was referring to me. You haven't heard my setup, so your whole post is meaningless. I find my setup of complete value because it is versatile. It's my home, portable and travel rig. The HiFiMAN contains a DAC inside comparable to the DAC's found in a Benchmark DAC1, Grace M902, Lavry DA11, etc...Right off the bat the HiFiMAN's huge size to some isn't so huge anymore packing the sound quality of a full size DAC costing $1,000+. The RSA Protector has been said to outperform home amplifiers costing in the $1,000 range. The RSA Protector is good enough to be used as a battery powered home balanced amplifier. You already know how amazing the JH13 Pro's are, comparable to the best of the best headphones. Add this combo up and you have probably the best sounding versatile rig ever. Worth every penny at over $3,000.


 

 No, it wasn't. And -- FYI -- I _have_ heard the HiFiMan, and I _have_ heard the Protector. Insofar as the HiFiMan being an astounding DAC, I agree with you completely. As a DAC it's very good, highly comparable to desktop standalone DACs around its price range. As for the Protector outperforming $1000 home amplifiers -- no. It barely compares to single-ended desktop amplifiers within its price range. $3,000 would have gotten you a far superior setup invested in some excellent AudioGD gear, for instance. My ears have heard.
   
  Your setup was good up to the HiFiMan. The Protector was just a waste of money.
   
_This_ post is directed at you. The post you quoted is a general statement, stemming from first-hand experiences with such wondrous gadget evolution like the iMods and Kenwoods of yesteryear to the HiFiMen (the HiFiMan is much better) of today and such bizarre letdowns as the Hornet of yesteryear and the Shadows and Protectors of today (still sounds weak; Ray makes wonderful home amplifiers though, in my humble opinion).
   
  I'm not arguing that your portable rig doesn't sound good or isn't the best-sounding portable rig in the world. I'm arguing that it's a silly waste of money.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> No, it wasn't. And -- FYI -- I _have_ heard the HiFiMan, and I _have_ heard the Protector. Insofar as the HiFiMan being an astounding DAC, I agree with you completely. As a DAC it's very good, highly comparable to desktop standalone DACs around its price range. As for the Protector outperforming $1000 home amplifiers -- no. It barely compares to single-ended desktop amplifiers within its price range. $3,000 would have gotten you a far superior setup invested in some excellent AudioGD gear, for instance. My ears have heard.
> 
> Your setup was good up to the HiFiMan. The Protector was just a waste of money.
> 
> _This_ post is directed at you. The post you quoted is a general statement, stemming from first-hand experiences with such wondrous gadgets like the iMods and Kenwoods of yesteryear and the iMods of today and such bizarre letdowns as the Hornet of yesteryears and the Shadows and Protectors of today.


 
  You heard the Protector through it's balanced output correct? The Protector transformed my JH13's into a full sized headphone with the soundstage improvement. Size and instrument separation is stunning. Don't even think I have the energy to type what else improvements the RSA Protector bought to the table...


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## 3X0

Yes, back when I only had the 13s though using a balanced TWag as you have. It just doesn't match a great single-ended home amplifier, let alone a good balanced one. People said similar things about the JH13 and the ALO Rx -- that it transformed the 13s. Through either of these portable I never got quite the satisfaction that I did out of even my little Nova.
   
  Once again, I'm not arguing sound here primarily. I'm primarily arguing value and sensibility. However, your portable rig may sound amazing, even the best as far as portable terms go, but you simply left performance on the table given your budget.


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## Sonic 748i

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> Yes, back when I only had the 13s though using a balanced TWag as you have. It just doesn't match a great single-ended home amplifier, let alone a good balanced one. People said similar things about the JH13 and the ALO Rx -- that it transformed the 13s. Through either of these portable I never got quite the satisfaction that I did out of even my little Nova.
> 
> Once again, I'm not arguing sound here primarily. I'm primarily arguing value and sensibility. However, your portable rig may sound amazing, even the best as far as portable terms go, but you simply left performance on the table given your budget.


 

 Also, remember you do pay some more money to have this technology crammed into something portable. It's easy to make a huge box with components that fill up this box that sounds better than a small portable amplifier.


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## Mochan

Just came from the RSA Mustang and have to say it barely even sounds as good as a cheap desktop amp. Portable amps provide very minimal improvements and I agree 100% with the original thread starter. I have yet to hear a portable amp that really takes sound to the next level. I have not heard the Protector but I honestly doubt it can outperform a $1,000 amp, unless it's a really crappy $1,000 amp.
   
  I mean it's incredible how something like the Mustang can adequately power something like the K701 or the HD650, but it's not even close to how a good desktop amp can sound.
   
  These days I am of the mind for a cheap DIY portable amp that I use whenever I feel like lounging around somewhere that isn't my listening room. If I felt like lounging in the living room but wanted to use my HD650 or K701, then I bring out a $10 DIY amp and my iPod and a $1 LOD and I'm set. It doesn't sound as good as my full amp but it'll do for semi-portable comfy listening.  
   
  Outdoors I use the PX100 or the TF10 or some other IEM straight out of my iPod. Portable amps are just not practical enough and don't offer enough of a substantial upgrade to the sound. Sometimes I tack on the FiiO E5 when I feel like I need the bass boost, which is as much of a compromise as I am willing to make. 
   
  If I visit a friend's house or am in the library then I usually just use my netbook, a USB DAC and the said $10 DIY amp along with one pair of headphones I felt like bringing. It's still not as good as my home setup but when you're on the go you make compromises. But I've tried some high end gear for the purpose and I find the benefits just aren't worth the unbelievable price premiums. All respect to Mr. Ray Samuels but his portable line is just too expensive for far too little added benefit (I posted about this in the Mustang thread). For these purposes, I've been very happy with the el-cheapo stuff.


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## 3X0

Quote: 





sonic 748i said:


> Also, remember you do pay some more money to have this technology crammed into something portable. It's easy to make a huge box with components that fill up this box that sounds better than a small portable amplifier.


 

 That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm just saying portable amps aren't worth the improvement they provide considering, although they're portable, they're not doing you any favors in terms of what you have to lug around. You still have to deal with an interconnect and some way to mate the amp with your player during travel. It's still cumbersome, even if we're talking about something like the RSA Shadow, because it's an additive process. You're paying a fair deal of the price for the portability and it's not even lightening your burden. The remaining value of the actual sonic improvement just isn't worth it.
   
  Of course it's just a matter of opinion, but this is why I gave up this angle towards the hobby a long time ago. I listen to music on-the-go with my _phone_ and I'm still satisfied because of how scalable the JH13s and JH16s are. And I'm rewarded at home with the Nova, again, because of how scalable the JH13s and JH16s are. I'll contend that the JH earpieces are probably amidst the best values of all of hifi -- not just portable -- and that portable amplifiers are exactly the opposite.


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## Blasto_Brandino

I'm an insane HI-FI seeking wackjob, that's my excuse, take it or leave it, I apologize for nothing. I have a VERY descent home set up upgrading any part of it would be costly because the components I have pushed me near my limits, and The Lisa III, when used with the LLP unit, doubles as a stationary amp  AND BY THE OP'S OWN ADMISSION the Lisa III comes close to cutting it(as I stated I had a Luxman P200) I don't really use headphones at home. I do plan on going ultra portable, to the extent that would make the OP happy, Walkman X1061 with an Arrow with Etymotic ER4s's W/ custom tips, would fit comfortably in a shirt pocket. Keep in mind you are talking to someone who has NO problem trudging around something with the Portacodes specs. I think the OP would have been happy with a HiFiMAN, it strikes me as a nifty all in one unit, and with a higher end set of portable cans (T50p's ?) He would be quite satisfied.
  As for "Value and Sensibility" WHAT WEBSITE DO YOU THINK YOU'RE ON!?! WELCOME TO HEAD-FI BABY!!! EXPENSIVE STUFF THAT PROVIDES MARGINAL IMPROVEMENT IS THE NAME OF THE GAME!


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## 3X0

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> As for "Value and Sensibility" WHAT WEBSITE DO YOU THINK YOU'RE ON!?! WELCOME TO HEAD-FI BABY!!! EXPENSIVE STUFF THAT PROVIDES MARGINAL IMPROVEMENT IS THE NAME OF THE GAME!


 
  Hence why I have both JH13s and JH16s, a $1200 DAC, and a pair of $1900 speakers. Every single bit of which I consider a better value than any portable amplifier my ears have heard. This is relative value and relative sensibility, not absolute.


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## Blasto_Brandino

Oh....


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## Deep Funk

I disagree, a Philips CD690 with built in amplification for headphones and bitstream conversion for 20 euros is not an exception. It powers the AKG K240 DF with ease and sounds more than satisfactory. A lot of old audio gear is sold for low prices and all you have to do is get it. Expensive is not the name of the game, it is a norm for high end audio gear in general. High end, the DF cost me 60 euros by the way so that is an exception too. 
   
  Please don not generalize the 'sorry for your wallet' part of Head-Fi. Scoop up a Pioneer Monitor 10 or another vintage gem and you might be surprised how good the old audio gear is compared to what is made today. Did I mention old audio gear can be found cheap?
   
  'EXPENSIVE STUFF THAT PROVIDES MARGINAL IMPROVEMENT IS THE NAME OF THE GAME!' dream on big spender...


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## Blasto_Brandino

Thank you for quoting me properly


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## TobaccoRoad

lol this thread is still alive? I guess some do take portable rigs seriously. to each their own..


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## K.I. Unlimited

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion...
   
  As people have reasons why they go for home audio (speaker/headphone), because they have the time, they like less wastage of good money, etc...there are also reasons why people go for portable.
   
  I don't see the reason why some people get riled up when people start saying portable hi-fi is okay...or when home hi-fi is okay.
   
  C'mon, it's as subjective a hobby as many others, respect each other's viewpoints, circumstances and such. Bad enough to tell those that adore the iBuds off, no need to chase away the porta-philes too.
   
  As for me, I will list some reasons why I stick to what I think contributes to my lovely music(some of them silly):
   
  1)I'm still living in a family house. Even a full porta-amp + crazy caps set-up is easier to hide than one *BOOM* Marantz CD5001 + Graham Slee Novo.  Or Audio-g d C-2C amp. My 'big' Voyager is hardly seen by my parents who grumble whenever I buy stuff, cheap or no.
   
  2)My Voyager contributes significantly to great sound, even if more and more people slam the use of 'Contour'. Hey, I have enough things to do without fiddling with all sorts of EQ.
   
  3)My Voyager works well with a small GoVibe DAC and a laptop powered by Songbird music player. Nobody tells me otherwise.
   
  4)Portable means it's easier for me to share good music with other people.
   
  5)Experimenting to find my beloved portable set-up already takes up enough time, money, and luck. Finding a home audio combo is going to drive me insane.
   
  And maybe more...
   
  Anyhow, I thought it should be understand fairly enough that good sound is meant to be shared whenever possible. Sure, lugging a desktop rig is still fairly possible; but I invite you to lug your preamps, power amps, tower speakers, long ICs, etc. Not *just* for the occasional CanJam or meet-up - how about anytime, anywhere? A portable set-up is a good introduction...even if little.
   
  And most of the time, I found that if a person can't appreciate great music in small size, they can't appreciate music from a CD player, or from a couple of well-planted Klipsch Palladium's.
   
  Oh yeah, one more thing - everytime I get a break between polytechnic lessons, I take less than a minute to set up my rig. How long do you take?


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## mrarroyo

Nice post K.I.!


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## Blasto_Brandino

This essentially is my (Trans) portable rig (when I walk around I'll choose different cans)
  HD800's W/ Custom MarkL Adreniline cable (200 owed, paid off month after next)
  Lisa III XP W/ Zebra wood faceplates (I sent them out to be piano laquered w/ clear laquer)
  Sony X1061 w/ custom LOD (cable needs to be terminated w/ Jena copperbullet RCA's Markl is handling that as well)
  Total Cost?
  HD800 - $1,400 B&H Photo
  LISA III - $700 Triad Audio
  X1061 - $311 Sonystyle
  Markl Adreniline - $460 Lawson Audio
  Custom LOD - $80
  $2,951 of portable gear over two months ( I used the case the HD800's came in to bury my dead wallet, I really should've spent that money on upgrading my Talon Khorus speakers to Khorus X II's), and I'm not rich I only make 20k a year. Now does this rig look like a hassle to carry around?


  How long to set this rig up? less than a minute as well, My home rig? For cd's under a minute, for the computer 3-5min, for vinyl 3-5min on a pretreated record 15min on a new record (gotta clean preserve, blah blah blah)
  Speaking of my home rig - NEW COMPONENT RACK! I BEAMS FOR THE WIN!!!


----------



## HiWire

My portable rig is a 3G iPod shuffle with stock earbuds. The earbuds piss me off when they fall out of my ears, but I can carry this thing anywhere.


----------



## Jaunty

Quote: 





hiwire said:


> My portable rig is a 3G iPod shuffle with stock earbuds. The earbuds piss me off when they fall out of my ears, but I can carry this thing anywhere.


 

 I would have thought you could get some IEMs for not a lot of money that don't fall out of your ears and improve on the stock earbuds. Go on, treat yourself.


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> This essentially is my (Trans) portable rig (when I walk around I'll choose different cans)
> HD800's W/ Custom MarkL Adreniline cable (200 owed, paid off month after next)
> Lisa III XP W/ Zebra wood faceplates (I sent them out to be piano laquered w/ clear laquer)
> Sony X1061 w/ custom LOD (cable needs to be terminated w/ Jena copperbullet RCA's Markl is handling that as well)
> ...


 
   
  Nice equipment. I am not sure how you do it on 20K but I am sure it is worth the enjoyment.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Well, the HiFiMan HM-801 is so good that I finally sold my iMod.  The iMod with portable Vcap Dock and Protector or Pico Slim was more bulky than the 801, and it can't get the full detail out of my 24/96 albums.  I like driving my ES3X right out of the built-in amp, but it also sounds very good with HD800 while vegging on the couch.  
   
  It's also taken over the roll as source for my modded SR-001 Mk2 at the bedside, where before I was using an iRiver optical out into Headroom Micro DAC (and Micro Amp for dynamic phones).
   
  If I need a tiny portable rig I grab the 5G Nano with pico slim now.


----------



## wuwhere

Quote: 





blasto_brandino said:


> This essentially is my (Trans) portable rig (when I walk around I'll choose different cans)
> HD800's W/ Custom MarkL Adreniline cable (200 owed, paid off month after next)
> Lisa III XP W/ Zebra wood faceplates (I sent them out to be piano laquered w/ clear laquer)
> Sony X1061 w/ custom LOD (cable needs to be terminated w/ Jena copperbullet RCA's Markl is handling that as well)
> ...


 
   
  Nice VPI TNT LP spinner with a missing tonearm.


----------



## mrarroyo

Larry, the HM-801 is that good and I get goose bumps listening to it via the ATH ESW9.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





mrarroyo said:


> Larry, the HM-801 is that good and I get goose bumps listening to it via the ATH ESW9.


 

 Yeah, rub it in on the ESW9 some more...
   
  I probably would like my ESW10 JPN more anyways...


----------



## mrarroyo

Larry, you know you are #1 on the list should I decide to ...


----------



## swbf2cheater

Those types of setups are not portable, they are meant for you to sit in your house or somewhere and enjoy your music via your mp3 player instead of a system.  To get the best out of it you likely to need an LOD and a good amp
   
  for actual portable, get a cmoy bb 2.02 and enjoy?  I enjoy it better than my python :\


----------



## qusp

Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> Those types of setups are not portable, they are meant for you to sit in your house or somewhere and enjoy your music via your mp3 player instead of a system.  To get the best out of it you likely to need an LOD and a good amp
> 
> for actual portable, get a cmoy bb 2.02 and enjoy?  I enjoy it better than my python :\


 

 is that right? so the people actually using them portable are dreaming?


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> for actual portable, get a cmoy bb 2.02 and enjoy?  I enjoy it better than my python :\


 

 What about ditching the amplifier and using the player itself? The only audio products I can think of that offer less value than portable amplifiers are cable upgrades and treatments (e.g. ERS paper). (N.B. the value of units with a decent enough in-built DAC component is of course much higher)


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





swbf2cheater said:


> Those types of setups are not portable, they are meant for you to sit in your house or somewhere and enjoy your music via your mp3 player instead of a system.  To get the best out of it you likely to need an LOD and a good amp
> 
> for actual portable, get a cmoy bb 2.02 and enjoy?  I enjoy it better than my python :\


 

 I took the 801 with Westone 3, Westone 2 and Monster Turbine Pro Gold to lunch with Sherwood today, and we listened to it and enjoyed it.  Seems portable to me.  
   
  And, I've heard a cmoy BB but this is on a whole new level above that.  The built-in amp performs on the level of many other top tier portable amps.


----------



## TheGame21x

Meh. I carry around an iPod Touch 2G, Fiio E1 amp and whatever easy to drive IEMs that strike my fancy on any particular day. It gets the job done and I'm plenty satisfied with that combo.


----------



## Jack C

I am of the opinion that just because you can't obtain audio nirvana, doesn't mean you don't even try.  People who spend money on a portable rig for many reasons, some just wants a noticeable better sounds than the bare DAP, some wants a specific feature, for some their portable rig is also their only rig.  I've participated in many many hobbies where people chased after ever greater performance, and the "what's the point" argument comes out every now and then. The key has always been realizing that there is more than one way to enjoy xyz, one way may not be any more valid than the other, and the capability of the equipment is just a small aspect of the overall enjoyment derived from the hobby.
   
  Jack


----------



## H22

Um, you make very good points, but in your quest to make life easier for newbs to gain perspective ( a very nobile persuit ) i think you may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
   
  Yes, I have listened to a full sized amp, a millett minimax, and it was a massive step up from just a portable source. I also have tried a couple of portable amps as well, a mini3 and a P-51. I sold the P-51 as i thought it did little to improve the sound of a good source (i have a sony X and a clip+) but it was a nice addition to the LOD of my secound gen touch. Just didn't seem to be worth the price tag, score one for your argument.
   
  I do, however, love my mini3. It helps everything i use and i miss it when i forget to bring it. My personal favorate portable phones are a set of UM3X's, followed by my RE0's then my set of TF10's. Yea, these are all IEM's, and should require no amplification at all, but they all benifit. the RE0's benifit the most, for an IEM they seem to be quite hard to drive and really wake up with an amp. with the other two the benifit is more suptle but definatly there. with my favorate, the UM3X's the bass becomes much fuller, the mids become less muddled, and the highs seem to be more defined. I can enjoy better and fuller sound quality at lower volume levels with the amp.
  Yea, some portable amps are rediculously expensive and may not offer a noticable increase in SQ from a budget ~$75 amp like the mini3, but a good source, good amp and good phones are leeps and bounds better than an "ok" source and a stock set of phones.
  BTW the Koss prta pro's ($35) are on my list for portable head phones.


----------



## junkanoo

To me this whole discussion is analogous to high-end home theater systems.  Where you could easily pay thousands on the best movie screens let alone the projection system, amps, speakers, etc.  Meanwhile, somebody else is watching a film on his iPhone. 
   
  Regardless, where the money is being spent will be the segment with the largest likely gain in 'improvements' (even though that word is hard to define let alone for people to agree on).  My quite limited guess is that the interest in products like the Pico Slim and Headstage Arrow 12HE 2G are examples of that playing out.


----------



## Somnambulist

Enjoyed reading this thread.
   
  I had a good think a while back about what my listening requirements and preferences were and that made it quite easy to make up my mind about how my expenditure on audio gear would pan out in terms of priorities and value for money. For the home, I'd like a speaker-based rig as the primary thing, although current circumstances mean full-size floorstanders are a no-no, but things like the DAC and amp would be long-term (hopefully!) investments, with the ability to use headphones/IEMS being a secondary concern, since avoiding disturbing others only accounts for say, 10% of my listening time.
   
  My portable needs therefore are fairly straightforward; 90% listening is done commuting or in non-silent environments. I don't want to wear cans, so essentially I'm aiming for a) quality IEMs, which as 3XO pointed out with his JH customs, are worth the investment due to scalability and can be used with other equipment (i.e. computer for games, TV late at night e.t.c.) and b) a good source. 
   
  The Hifiman was slightly out of my budget though and I wanted to see how that product line evolves, but currently I'm rocking an S:Flo2 I got on eBay for under £100, and I'd like a the Arrow amp to go with it (mainly for a cleaner, deeper bass-boost and bypassing the audible artefacts the firmware produces when using the HO, the dimensions perfect too). In terms of footprint, that's about the size of two iPhones stuck together.. still pocketable, and the total cost for source+amp would be around £250. That's less than some new DAPs (not even including the Hifiman!) and, by all accounts sounds great for a portable solution.
   
  Ideally I'd like to see a DAP using flash memory in high capacity (like the new cards) because swapping microSD cards is annoying... but so are spinning HDDs which don't like getting bumped about, with 801 SQ and beyond, and I think that looks likely. After all, when this thread was first made, that huge iMod + vCaps + LOD + amp set up was seen as the bee's knees, but a relatively short time later and you have a couple of DAPs of smaller footprint out which are generally praised in having equal or better SQ, with several mainstream products offering good quality out of the box too. Let's hope the situation is even better in a year or two.


----------



## Blasto_Brandino

Quote: 





wuwhere said:


> Nice VPI TNT LP spinner with a missing tonearm.


 

 Yeah it had a SME IV arm on it but I sold it, I plan on buying a Trans-Fi T3 pro, but considering I recently spent 3k on portable gear, I will take a month or two to pace myself.


----------



## Young Spade

I remember a while back (sometime last year) I saw this thread and thought that I'd never be in the same boat. THen I only had the UM3Xs and Triple 10s. Lately though, I've been sinking all of my money into my home rig and after just selling my ER4Ps, I don't have any portable items left now. I have the T51 and PB1 (small amp) but I only have full sized cans now. 
   
  I really wish I could grab 300 to use on some top tier IEMs or something...


----------



## digihead

Quote: 





jack c said:


> I am of the opinion that just because you can't obtain audio nirvana, doesn't mean you don't even try.  People who spend money on a portable rig for many reasons, some just wants a noticeable better sounds than the bare DAP, some wants a specific feature, for some their portable rig is also their only rig.  I've participated in many many hobbies where people chased after ever greater performance, and the "what's the point" argument comes out every now and then. The key has always been realizing that there is more than one way to enjoy xyz, one way may not be any more valid than the other, and the capability of the equipment is just a small aspect of the overall enjoyment derived from the hobby.
> 
> Jack


 

 Great post and spot on in my opinion.  I go through inevitable phases of buying and selling equipment. Adding items to the stable then thinning out the herd. At the end of the day its about enjoying the journey and listening to the music that really matters. It's a hobby, enjoy the ride.


----------



## basementdweller

Personally, I subscribe to the "whatever floats your boat" train of thought so where I decide to go in hifi doesn't at all have to coincide with the path taken by others...although the advice found here has, thus far, been very helpful for a newb.  After I found this site, recently, I purchased some ATH-M50s which I absolutely adore and set out to build a cmoy using tangent's site as guidance.  Well the cmoy worked and while it cost me $20 it also taught me a bit and refreshed soldering skills that I haven't used in over a decade.  Now I've got the parts for a cmoy bb which came out to around $30 and while gadgets like the headstage arrow are extremely tempting to a guy like me, who had never heard of dedicated headphone amps a few months ago, I think I'll stop my portable setup with the cmoybb. 
   
  The OP's post makes a lot of sense for me, as a newb(which is his intended audience), when you consider the fact that I have no source other than my mac and an ipod...and yet the inexpensive M50's, Rockbox, and re-riping my cd's into flac has brought me to the point that I am enjoying my music in a way that I truly haven't since I was 16(which was a while back as I'm almost double that now).  I think, as the author suggests, I will spend a couple of hundred on a minimax kit and pick up a pair of DT990s rather than spending that money on portable.  This is all new to me and I have no doubt that listening to a dedicated home rig and headphones that cost more than a hundred dollars...for the first time...will blow my mind and certainly be worth more to me than portable.
   
  For you guys that already have all the nice home gear and continue with portable audio, more power to you and I'm sure I'll read your posts about it and maybe even take part in a few years when my home setup comes to a point where I am somewhat satisfied.  Oh, and thanks for the OP's insight which will save me some money in the short term, as I've already discovered the "sorry about your wallet" moniker wasn't a joke as I initially suspected.


----------



## idvsego

didnt read all the replies, but read the initial post and I have to agree with a few things...the reality of the differences is probably minimal.  It is the same in every hobby realm I have ever been in though.  I have spent $300 on a car part that probably didnt make it any faster...but it was fun to do.  I have paid money to swap video cards because it gave me some extra frames per second but probably didnt make the gameplay experience that different...but it was fun to do.  The trick is, if you enjoy it, do it.  If you have some other area you would rather spend your $$, do that.  I know for a fact that my hearing isnt good enough to benefit from the high end stuff.  Too many days as a stupid kid in a car that was way too loud.  So now I just play around with finding comfort and something that sounds good enough to my ears.  so far I havent found the need for an amp because i value the compact nature of protables...and for the same reason I will only use IEM for my portable.  I still love it and enjoy the music.


----------



## thaddeussmith

whats funny is that it was written two years ago and is still as relevant and accurate as ever ...


----------



## Mochan

Quote: 





idvsego said:


> didnt read all the replies, but read the initial post and I have to agree with a few things...the reality of the differences is probably minimal.  It is the same in every hobby realm I have ever been in though.  I have spent $300 on a car part that probably didnt make it any faster...but it was fun to do.  I have paid money to swap video cards because it gave me some extra frames per second but probably didnt make the gameplay experience that different...but it was fun to do.  The trick is, if you enjoy it, do it.  If you have some other area you would rather spend your $$, do that.  I know for a fact that my hearing isnt good enough to benefit from the high end stuff.  Too many days as a stupid kid in a car that was way too loud.  So now I just play around with finding comfort and something that sounds good enough to my ears.  so far I havent found the need for an amp because i value the compact nature of protables...and for the same reason I will only use IEM for my portable.  I still love it and enjoy the music.


 
   
  I caution against one of your points, though.... upgrading video cards *DOES* give you very tangible, real and definitley measurable benefits if you go from a pair that is old and outdated to a new cutting edge card, and yes this does translate into a different and objectively better gameplay experience.
   
  The same cannot necessarily be said of going from a $200 headphone to a $1000 one or adding a $500 amp into the chain.


----------



## illumineering

I am the epitome of what most "audiophiles" abhor.  I have a 32gb Zune HD and cmoy paired up to a set of Bose QC2's with the stock iBasso mini/mini.  I am also a community based therapist who has carted this montage into several therapy sessions (tucked into my bag).  On more than one occassion people have pointed to the *mint tin* and asked what it is.  A 1 minute a/b comparison has helped to stimulate engaged dialogues and baselines for future interaction.  For that reason, as well as my need for a quick refresh throughout the day, my *newbie* gear has become a mainstay in my bag.  I have since added a D10 Cobra with mods, W3's, SE420's and pro 900's to the collection for woods walkabouts and other mobile needs.  At the end of the day, while walking in the eastern hardwoods, I am "home" and listening to my egg/spam/velveeta sandwich equivalent.  No plug-in-at-home unit could ever inspire the conversations that the mint tin with a blue light and a knob does.   I'll stick with the Bose-mint-box combo and the possibility that dented and derelict amp inspires each and every day.


----------



## bakhtiar

@illumineering ; Nice story. 
   
  I am commuting everyday and needs some 'space', especially during rush/peak hours. My basic portable system always performs it's job. On train, I am listening to Sony Walkman X1000 + Unique Melody Mage (custom IEMs). At work, I hooks my iBasso D10 to MBP 15" using SDPIF/Toslink. I can have my 'private' space all the time... Before I sleep, I am using Phonak Audeo PFE 112v1 (custom tips) to my smartphone, Google Nexus One, and starts browsing internet and Youtube, until I fall asleep. Look, portable audio is part of my life already. 
   
  Upgrades? No need already. I am like simple things. Not need 'ultra grade' cables or interface. Just give me SPDiF,  good DAC and good IEMs; and I will be happy  enjoying every bit of my portable system. 
   
  Thank you.


----------



## idvsego

Quote: 





mochan said:


> I caution against one of your points, though.... upgrading video cards *DOES* give you very tangible, real and definitley measurable benefits if you go from a pair that is old and outdated to a new cutting edge card, and yes this does translate into a different and objectively better gameplay experience.
> 
> The same cannot necessarily be said of going from a $200 headphone to a $1000 one or adding a $500 amp into the chain.


 

 But goign from a $400 video card to a $800 video card usually only adds benchmark numbers, not real world benefits.  $100 to $300 huge difference.  but going from a $5 IEM to a $50 is big too.  Its the basic principle of diminishing return.


----------



## estreeter

Resurrecting this old thread for a couple of reasons:
   
  1. When I read it 2 years ago, it made a lot of sense. I have to ask if the improvements in portable kit over that (relatively short) timeframe have negated some of the OPs objections.
   
  2. I thought he made an especially good point about LOD cables costing ludicrous amounts of money, and there really were very few choices 2 years ago.
   
  3. I cant help feeling that some of us are still making the same mistakes he highlighted in that original post.
   
  Please try to separate religious beliefs from your thoughts when replying, and remember that its all in the name of getting the most bang for our buck. This isnt meant to be an attack on those who have invested a lot of money in portable kit - I certainly dont have a Woo WA22 and a pair of orthos on my bedside table - but it might strike a chord with someone just starting to spend a little more than they had originally planned.
   
  Peace out
   
  estreeter


----------



## Kubernetes

An interesting post.  I admittedly gave up on portable hifi years ago.  The fact is that ambient sound will render moot all your efforts to squeeze that last bit of SQ out of your equipment.  And let's face it, carrying a portable amp is unwieldy.  You have extra cables, a separate volume control, likely you've got the whole rig strapped together like a brick and  you're driving these ludicrously expensive IEMs out of it (and everything still goes to poop every time a truck drives by).  I've pretty much settled on "good enough" when mobile because the amount of cash it requires to get a smidgen more quality is insane.  As of now my portable rig is my Samsung Vibrant (which sounds excellent, btw) and ESW9s.  It's good sound and convenient, and I'm happy for the time being.


----------



## GeorgeGoodman

I love this thread. The OP is obviously making some extreme claims, but there is much truth is what he says. Spending a crazy amount of money on an LOD you use for portable use is not a good use of money at all, especially when I see how much I could make one for myself. But things are getting much more convenient and Hifiman has put out three players that have great amps inside them, as the OP stated would be practical. A lot has change in a few years.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Resurrecting this old thread for a couple of reasons:
> 
> *


 


  Good observation.
   
  My 6 G Nano/Pico Slim is really treating me to some fine sound. It doesn't get much smaller than that.


----------



## crumpler

Agreed! It's just my iPhone4 and SM3s now when i do decide to go portable. Money is much better spent on the home rig IMO. 
  
  Quote: 





kubernetes said:


> An interesting post.  I admittedly gave up on portable hifi years ago.  The fact is that ambient sound will render moot all your efforts to squeeze that last bit of SQ out of your equipment.  And let's face it, carrying a portable amp is unwieldy.  You have extra cables, a separate volume control, likely you've got the whole rig strapped together like a brick and  you're driving these ludicrously expensive IEMs out of it (and everything still goes to poop every time a truck drives by).  I've pretty much settled on "good enough" when mobile because the amount of cash it requires to get a smidgen more quality is insane.  As of now my portable rig is my Samsung Vibrant (which sounds excellent, btw) and ESW9s.  It's good sound and convenient, and I'm happy for the time being.


----------



## violinvirtuoso

Though I agree with the OP for the most part, using a "portable rig" has become easier nowadays. LODs can be had for $10, and can be made for even less. You can also get super small, custom made LODs pretty cheap as well. Portable amps are also getting slimmer and smaller. Just look at the trend in new amps: RSA Shadow, ALO Rx (1/2), Headstage Arrow, Pico Slim, etc. Though I agree that it isn't worth it (in terms of dollar value), the size factor is starting to go away.


----------



## freeky1

Wow, how did I ever miss this thread before now?  This has become my favorite thread ever!  So many things that I agree with.  I had been wrestling with the idea of an amp, but I am honestly satisfied with the sound straight out of my J3,  Whether I'm running my Grados or my Audio Technicas or my Monsters, the sound always puts a smile on my face.  I just couldn't bring myself to lay down $300+ for what seem to be very large, heavy, low-tech devices.  Now I know why.  Because no matter how hard you try...no matter how much you spend...no matter how much weight you are willing to tote around, the sound that you get from a "portable rig" will never even come close to the sound that you can get from a reasonably priced home rig.  While the introduction of devices like the Hifiman hm-801 may combine a quality PDAP and amplifier into one unit, the Hifiman hm-801 is so ridiculously huge that I am afraid that it would stay at home with my iPad most of the time.  It's too large to carry around all the time.  And don't even get me started on the high dollar LODs and mini to minis...nothing but snake oil!


----------



## estreeter

1. No argument re LOD cables, or cables in general - but that extends well into the fullsize arena. As far as the cost of parts to make a portable amp, thats the same argument that says that Microsoft Office should cost no more than the retail price of a DVD plus P&H. Open Office  (and others Open Source solutions) has been a viable free alternative for years, but we still have customers walk into our store and pay full freight for MS Office - go figure.
   
  2. A good pair of headphones is a good pair of headphones, whether you are wearing them in a hotel room or on a bus. Its the rest of the 'portable rig' which the OP seems to question.
   
  3. I would argue that DAPs have improved by a significant margin, but then I have never owned a *Mod anything. Those who want to persist with 10+year old Portable CDPs and tote the CDs around with them are welcome to it - IMO, that is as silly as anything else the OP is referring to in his rant.
   
  4. End of the day,* it all comes back to the Lisa III*. With the (recommended) PSU and shipping, I believe thats a thousand dollar purchase (happy to hear otherwise). I would dearly love to read a comparison between the Lisa III and a fullsize equivalent, Even two years ago, I think the OP could have solved many of his issues simply by passing on his portable amp purchases in favour of a good fullsize amp - he didnt, and a lot of his post reads like regret, pure and simple.
   
  Personally, I havent given up on the concept of a good transportable rig that I could lay out in a hotel anywhere in the world without the need for a power adapter. For those who have different priorities, its a no-brainer to spend the money on your 'home' rig or, as one HFier already pointed out, is there a law that says you cant have both ?


----------



## freeky1

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> 1. No argument re LOD cables, or cables in general - but that extends well into the fullsize arena. As far as the cost of parts to make a portable amp, thats the same argument that says that Microsoft Office should cost no more than the retail price of a DVD plus P&H. Open Office  (and others Open Source solutions) has been a viable free alternative for years, but we still have customers walk into our store and pay full freight for MS Office - go figure.
> 
> 2. A good pair of headphones is a good pair of headphones, whether you are wearing them in a hotel room or on a bus. Its the rest of the 'portable rig' which the OP seems to question.
> 
> ...


 


  Agreed!  I have decided that my portable rig will consist of my Cowon J3, a decent pair of headphones, and a (cheap Monster) mini to mini interconnect to attach my J3 to my stereo in my truck.


----------



## LevA

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> *Personally, I havent given up on the concept of a good transportable rig that I could lay out in a hotel anywhere in the world without the need for a power adapter*. For those who have different priorities, its a no-brainer to spend the money on your 'home' rig or, as one HFier already pointed out, is there a law that says you cant have both ?


 
   
  this...
   
  portable rig: 

  
   
  but I could not do without my transportable rig..and that is at home out in the balcony, a quiet cafe, hotel room, on extended trips etc..
   

  just a 240gb ipod video coupled with TTVJ portable hybrid..as close to tube sound you can get on portable.


----------



## GeorgeGoodman

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> 1. No argument re LOD cables, or cables in general - but that extends well into the fullsize arena. As far as the cost of parts to make a portable amp, thats the same argument that says that Microsoft Office should cost no more than the retail price of a DVD plus P&H. Open Office  (and others Open Source solutions) has been a viable free alternative for years, but we still have customers walk into our store and pay full freight for MS Office - go figure.
> 
> 2. A good pair of headphones is a good pair of headphones, whether you are wearing them in a hotel room or on a bus. Its the rest of the 'portable rig' which the OP seems to question.
> 
> ...


 

 I have to disagree. The RSA SR71B, and the Ibasso PB1 and PB2 are more powerful than the Lisa III, and at least one of them (the SR71B) has been declared better sounding by Skylab. Their prices are, respectively, $650, $229, and $325. That is a far cry from a thousand. 
   
  Yes, they are all balanced. But balancing a headphone is not that expensive. You can probably get someone on head-fi to balance any headphone for about $50-60, and you can do it for much less if you do it yourself. The Lisa III is near the top of the heap when it comes to portables, but I believe there are better options now.
   
  This thread is really about the practicality of a portable rig. I do not have a portable amp yet, but I plan to get one. Size and the "inconvenience" does not bother me nearly as much as it did the OP or many others in this thread. At the end of the day, spending your money wisely is always a good thing, and demeaning somebody else's decision to have a nice portable rig will get you nowhere. Especially with the great amps coming out today, the gap between desktop and portable performance rapidly closing. The Ibasso potables can power almost any headphone, even the HE-6 and K1000, to very near the limit of their capabilities or slightly below, in the case of the PB1. You can probably find a desktop amp that can do that for around the same price, but it might be hard.
   
  BTW, very nice rigs above, LevA. I love the look of the transportable one especially.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





georgegoodman said:


> The Lisa III is not top of the heap anymore when it comes to portables.
> I do not have a portable amp yet, but I plan to get one.


 
   
  You've quoted Skylab's opinion of the SR71B and ignored his opinion of the Lisa III. You haven't heard any of these amps, but you know they are all on par with fullsize amps based on their quoted specs. O-kay.
   
  George, you are the person that Luminette wrote this thread for. I really don't need you to list the asking price for various portables - thanks for your time.


----------



## estreeter

Nice rig, LevA. Eminently transportable.


----------



## GeorgeGoodman

The last thing I want is a stupid fight like most of this thread is. I have taken what I know from members such as Jamato and Hiflight who have good home amps as well as the HE-6 and K1000. Go look in the PB2 thread. I agree the Lisa III is powerful and nice, but it seems expensive and outdated to me. It not being top of the heap was too strong, and I edited it out. However, Mike, (the guy who runs headfonia.com) says in the comments in the PB1 unboxing thread that he tried the Lisa III with the HE-5 and got distortion at medium volume. Hiflight has stated he can run the HE-6, a much more demanding headphone than the HE-5, from the PB2 so well it is almost the same as his speaker amp. The Lisa III is very nice, but to my eyes and brain it doesn't match up to the competition in price, size, or performance.
   
  I admit I haven't heard any of the amps I talk about, but I am just trying to get a sense of perspective. I can do that with members I trust on head-fi. If you think differently, I would like to hear what you have to say.


----------



## LevA

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Nice rig, LevA. Eminently transportable.


 


  Thanks. 
  I think transportable rigs are worth spending if your life style warrants it. 
  I for one tend to listen to music more outside at places rather than home. when on the move, the tf10 does the job well enough. but sometimes I find myself at a quite cafe, outside on the veranda where I can enjoy better SQ. 
   
  Having said this, I am pretty much done spending on portable/transportable set up, and look forward to a nice home rig. I've been living overseas and will be heading back home march so I have avoided a home rig due to  moving/ shipping, voltage change etc. I'm actually hoping to spend the better part of the money on a speaker system, and maybe a leben amp or something similar where I can use it both for speakers and HP. 
   
  For those who have lots of money I guess its  OK to spend big on portable set up but I think if you have limited budget, you really should take your time and decide slowly on where you want to invest. since I have been on Head-fi, which is just over 2 years, the pics above are pretty much all that I have invested in my HP setup. probably around ~$1000. but I have spent around ~$2000K on CDs, trying to build my classical collection and some Jazz CDs, which I think is money well spent. I think its important to keep in mind why we are in this hobby, and not try to collect as much equipment we can but increase our exposure to new music. in the end, thats what its all about.


----------



## estreeter

Quote:  





> I admit I haven't heard any of the amps I talk about, but I am just trying to get a sense of perspective. I can do that with members I trust on head-fi. If you think differently, I would like to hear what you have to say.


 


  George, the main problem with HF is that everyone here has an opinion. In the final analysis, you and I wont know just how good amp 'X' is until we hear it in our rig, with our music/ears/mood.
   
  On the 'trust' issue, you need to be aware that there are folk here who will gleefully give impressions of kit that they have heard fleetingly (if at all..), without any disclosure. I'm not pointing any fingers, but it does happen - one of Luminette's points was that we are a self-generating hype factory and thats as true today as it was when he started this thread.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





leva said:


> the pics above are pretty much all that I have invested in my HP setup. probably around ~$1000. but I have spent around ~$2000K on CDs, trying to build my classical collection and some Jazz CDs, which I think is money well spent. I think its important to keep in mind why we are in this hobby, and not try to collect as much equipment we can but increase our exposure to new music. in the end, thats what its all about.


 

 Agreed - only difficulty for me is that I find myself buying CDs that I had years ago, or 'Greatest Hits' compilations from the 70s and 80s - I just dont find a lot of contemporary rock to my liking. Classical is easier when you dont really care who the conductor was


----------



## Pale Rider

I agree with lot of the OP's post, with the exception of the claim that many old PCDP units trounce PDAPs. Not for me. But other than that, there is a lot of merit in his post, and in many of these 40+ pages.

Perhaps I fall into the transportable rig category. It's how I use my iMod anyway. Reality is that I don't listen to music "on the go," e.g., walking. It's not safe for bicycling. But anywhere I carry a briefcase, I have my iMod/ALO LOD/Pico Slim/JH-13s. That's what I listen to on the planes I am on regularly and forgive me, but that rig sounds a boatload better than a straight iPod into inexpensive headphones. I know, because that is where I started in this hobby. In fact, my dual track of developing my portable rig and my desktop office rigspretty much paralleled each other, because as I improved the one, I always wanted to improve the other. Like stepping up from LiveWires to the 13s. As good as the former are, the 13s are better. Noticeably so. And the difference between the Mustang and the Shadow is, while less obvious, quite discernible, and as to the Pico Slim, even more so.

Does my portable rig sound as good as the desktop? In a word, "no." Just plug my JH-13s into the Apache for that little germ of truth. But do the 13s sound better on the transportable rig than they do on the iPhone, Nano or iPad? Heck, yeah. Is that worth it to me? Yes.


----------



## LevA

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I guess I'm in the same boat with buying older CDs, which classical music gives you plenty to choose from. However, as I have delved more into classical music, conductor and orchestras have become very important as each have different interpretations on classical pieces. as a result, you end up with same peices with different interpretations such as  3 different versions of Mozarts Requiem etc.  But I quite like the challenge of searching, reading and listening to short clips to decide which versions to get. it adds another dimension to this hobby, like a mini treasure hunt 
  Npw my taste in classical is making me lean towards more HIP (historically informed playing) and PI (period instruments) style, so have been replacing some of my CDs with these versions. unfortunately these versions tend to be newer releases so cost is higher. I'm still debating whether I should part with $148 (+ shipping) for the 9 CDs of Beethoven Sonatas played on Fortepiano by Brautigam..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  In the end, I am finding myself more interested in reading up on music than rigs and new HPs here on head-fi. though being addicted to this place, I still spend a lot of time browsing. its a bloody addiction....


----------



## estreeter

I had considered the ESW9 for my next HP purchase, but it doesnt seem to have a lot of supporters here - what do you think of the ESW10 ?


----------



## LevA

I think if you can find one for a reasonable price, it definitely is a nice set of phones. 
  the sound SQ is on the neutral (in the sense relatively more balanced) side for ATs. its strength is its mid range, nice and lush, with good clear highs and good lower end, though not a bass monster if that is what you like. I haven't really had a good chance to compare them to esw9s apart from at a store for a few minutes, but felt the 10s have more clarity and sounded brighter. also tried the es10's, but felt it had too much bass. of course these impressions are at a store with unknown amp and music. so pretty much not very informative and clasping at straws just to give some basic impression.
   
  One thing that the AT ESW series has going for it is its transportability or portable use. with their carry case, they really are a nice rig in that department, very light, nice build (but no tanks) and classy look that makes you feel OK walking around in public. being easy to drive, you can still very much enjoy the sound straight from a DAP, though I find with a my portable amp I get a slightly better depth and positioning, deeper bass and better frequency balance than I usually get with the ipod alone. However, this might be the shortcoming of the ipod itself, so better DAPs may improve the slightly flat sound I get. The TTVJ does an aamazing job with accoustic instruments, especially with strings. it is not the best amp for detail or speed, but it does bring an extra emphasis on musicality, so especially smaller chamber music and concertos sound lovely with it. 
   
  EDIT
  One thing I forgot, if you are planning to use them at a noisy place, forget about it. they hardly isolate outside noise and definitely wont work on planes, trains etc.. thats one big down side to them.


----------



## estreeter

I hear ya - I had the ES7s for about a year and they had very little isolation. The AD900 are even worse in that respect, but they are an open headphone.


----------



## LevA

yeah, so you know what to expect with isolation.
   
  to be honest, I think the esw10s really comes down to personal choice with many things apart from SQ. if solely based on SQ, you can definitely get something better for the price. Senn600 will give you better Sq hands down, though a bit darker sound but with a much better Soundstage. the problem is not much portable HPs out there to choose, unless you go the iem way. 
   
  a lot of the price is due to it being portable (ironically not isolating) and its limited edition. don't really care about the LE, but a big part of my decision to purchase it was due to the urushi finish. Having lived in Japan for a long time and heading back in March, I love urushi and lacquerware, so it was an opportunity to mix my  hobby with this one. so you can see I am quite vain in that department.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





leva said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I can confirm that is an excellent sounding portable rig (been there, done that).


----------



## Mochan

Well this thread got necroe'd. I'd just like to weigh in with my current portable and transportable setup.
   
  My current portable is a Cowon J3 with a Senn PX100-II. I love this setup. When I need isolation, I swap out the PX100-II for some Turbine Golds, which are also very portable and go with me everywhere.  I have a bunch of closed portable cans as well but I don't always bring them, the PX100-II and the Golds are almost always with me.  I also have a Nano 6G which is even more portable than the J3 and really clips on to my clothes everywhere.

 I'm very happy with this setup.
   
  For transportalbe I just have either the Nano, or my laptop, hooked up to an E7, and the same set of portable headphones. I also have a uDAC, which I don't use as much anymore since I prefer the sound of the E7.
   
  I have given up on spending top dollar on these rigs. I am happy with my very mid-fi but very satisfying setups.  On my last trip to India I had my netbook, my E7 and the Golds. That tided me over the entire trip. And I was happy.


----------



## Red Haze

I think it's easy for people to get sucked in to the concept of having to have an amp in their portable setup in order for it to sound good. It's sort of going against the purpose of "portability".


----------



## Jack C

I know from experience that some times, a portable rig is also the only rig. This may happen for a variety of reasons. It's just like how to some people, a notebook computer is their only computer. 
   
  Different people can accept different degrees of "portability". Some may want an iPod Shuffle and refuse to use anything beyond this basic minimalist portability. Others may wish to carry something larger like a Cowon player. There's no right or wrong, just different. 
   
  Portability and good sound are not mutually exclusive. Just like it is possible to produce a powerful notebook computer.  I find myself listening to a lot of IEMs lately, but I figure a few weeks from now, I might get more desk time than road time and get back to listening my full sized headphones a lot more.  And if I can find myself alone working late in the office, I'll put the BX5A's on full blast instead. 
   
  Products are there to help us find ways to enjoy our music. As tastes and situations differ, as well as when they change, so will the products and how they are used.
   
  Jack


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





headphoneaddict said:


> I can confirm that is an excellent sounding portable rig (been there, done that).


 
   
  Thanks Larry - I value that recommendation. Have you heard TTVJ's current portable amp - if so, what is your opinion of the 'Slim' ?
   
  http://www.ttvjaudio.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=278
   
  Apologies if you have already reviewed it - Todd's stuff seems to get buried somewhere between RSA and the iBasso onslaught


----------



## laddieboy

Have to agree with the original post - but emphasize that all the rigamoroll is to just make up for bad D to A conversions on the portable side. I think that the current trend to address this is hopeful!
  I do like the TTVJ slim a bit more than the current headstage amp to carry around to make up for this nastiness - at home better D to A is light years ahead!


----------



## GreatDane

^
 rigmarole


----------



## GreatDane

double post
   
  ...excellent pics levA


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I listened to a TTVJ solid state portable at CanJam 2009 for a few minutes and thought it sounded very good.  But that's my only experience with it.  I haven't read anything bad about it though.  I only sold the hybrid because I had too many amps and my 3MOVE and XM5 gave me a similar sound without the "tube ring" if the amp is tapped.  The portable hybrid was fantastic with Grados, and I do miss it sometimes.


----------



## estreeter

Thanks Larry - the Slim reportedly corrects things like the tube ring Skylab reported on in his review.
   
  (my fanboy status prevents me from commenting on your Grado reference. I AM trying to broaden my horizons, but its never easy)


----------



## Kubernetes

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I had considered the ESW9 for my next HP purchase, but it doesnt seem to have a lot of supporters here - what do you think of the ESW10 ?


 


  Well, I just got mine a week ago, and very pleased.  A very sweet euphonic sound, probably not so great for fast rock (although the Pixies and Modest Mouse do just fine, if without the aggressive edge you might get with more rock-oriented phones.  I'm very pleased with the portablility and comfort, and they're not as delicate as you might think.  
   
  I can't believe I came back here though-- last night I ordered a pair of ES10s and now I've pulled out an old fifth-gen iPod video, wondering it it's worth it to get an LOD and amp.  Damn!


----------



## googleborg

Quote: 





leva said:


> For those who have lots of money I guess its  OK to spend big on portable set up but I think if you have limited budget, you really should take your time and decide slowly on where you want to invest. since I have been on Head-fi, which is just over 2 years, the pics above are pretty much all that I have invested in my HP setup. probably around ~$1000. but I have spent around ~$2000K on CDs, trying to build my classical collection and some Jazz CDs, which I think is money well spent. I think its important to keep in mind why we are in this hobby, and not try to collect as much equipment we can but increase our exposure to new music. in the end, thats what its all about.


 


  2 MILLION dollars on CDs?


----------



## wind016

Quote: 





googleborg said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 WOW. I think he meant $2000. But if he means $2 million and still thinks it's money well spent, then I think  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  we have a problem here.


----------



## LevA

heh...if only I had 2 million dollars.....
  then I would definitely buy that brautigam set


----------



## Kubernetes

For $2 million I'd buy a Bugatti Veyron and install some Nautilus drivers and subwoofer.  Now THERE;S a portable rig.
  
  Quote: 





leva said:


> heh...if only I had 2 million dollars.....
> then I would definitely buy that brautigam set


----------



## Saintkeat

hi guys i'm loving this thread! but could you help me out with a question? I was looking at the pb1 and was wondering how much sonic returns could i expect from investing in a "balanced set up". i know it isn't truly balanced since the source is single input, but would i be able to hear significant improvements over T3, arrow and even mustangs?


----------



## shigzeo

You use balanced armature earphones, which I assume you'd want to recable and run balanced. You will definitely hear differences, but those may not be better, they may actually be worse. Running in balanced mode changes the manufacturer's impedance spec and thus, you'll get very different reactions from the speakers themselves. Armatures and balanced doesn't get much recommendation from me. Dynamics, can, but again, you better listen at the same volume with immediate splitters and A/B them before dropping a load of dosh on something that really is just more expensive. If you look at the expensive box and enjoy it for what it's worth, you will no doubt hear something different and better.


----------



## Saintkeat

Thank you shigzeo!

I suspected from reading other reviews that may be the case with most iems..

So that really narrows down my choice down to t3 and headstage arrow. I've heard the t3 but not the arrow. Loved the little amp but didn't know if I could part with the extra cash and have an extra thing to lug around.. Think I'd rather spend the minimum when it comes to portable amps.. Can't justify paying the price for things like shadows and pico slims.. The cost of lods for those rigs even customed by a local diyer are bloody ridiculous for 4 inches of bloody cable!


----------



## HiFlight

Although as Shigzeo stated, the impedances can change and possibly the SQ of your headphones as a result of balancing, I found that when I balanced my ES3X and drive them from my PB2,  the SQ stayed pretty much the same as before, but imaging became more precise and 3-dimensional and the soundstage more expansive.   I certainly can't state that this would be the case with all makes of IEMs, but the Westones did respond to balancing very well.
   
  IMO, eliminating the common ground (negative) return as a result of balancing will always result in more precise and stable imaging, whereas the tonal qualities of the phones may or may not result in noticeable improvements.


----------



## High_Q

Finally, a post with integrity, which majority of the reviews here lack.  Especially with big list of sponsors on the right.  But, much respects for keeping this post alive for everyone to read. Thanks for the insightful comments.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





high_q said:


> Finally, a post with integrity, which majority of the reviews here lack.  Especially with big list of sponsors on the right.  But, much respects for keeping this post alive for everyone to read. Thanks for the insightful comments.


 


  I resurrected it in the hope that it would generate discussion beyond 'Yeah, I agree with everything the OP said' - if nothing has changed in 2+ years, we need to start asking ourselves some hard questions. On a lighter note, I ordered the PX200 II on the basis that they are reputedly a step up from the PX100s the OP was so enamoured with straight from his DAP


----------



## rroseperry

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 There are two things that seem to have changed in the two years since the original post. 1 There's a much bigger audience/demand for portables. Reading back through the older posts on Head-Fi, the focus seems to have been on putting together a home rig that had the most accurate/pleasing reproduction that you could afford or make.  Now, most threads about portables assume that the portable rig is the poster's main music experience.  It's probably the increased number of smartphones and small, cheaper DAPs that's changed the landscape. The second change, is the shift from DIY to wanting to be able to buy audio nirvana right now.
   
  Ok, I'm not completely sure about that last bit, but it does seem like in the older Head-Fi (from reading, I'm a relative noob) there was more exploration and less "Tell me the perfect IEM/DAP/amp for meeeeeee!" in the forums.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





rroseperry said:


> Ok, I'm not completely sure about that last bit, but it does seem like in the older Head-Fi (from reading, I'm a relative noob) there was more exploration and less "Tell me the perfect IEM/DAP/amp for meeeeeee!" in the forums.


 
   
  Fair point, but given some of the posts in 'Full Size Headphones', I suspect that you might be over-estimating the level of understanding of many Head-Fiers - the majority of us did not (IMO) come from any sort of audio background (ie owning a speaker rig, not running a professional studio ....) and the lure of all those shiny little amps is just too much.
   
  If I could nominate a pet peeve its folks buying the largest, nastiest set of cans they can find then trying to find the cheapest amp they can lay their hands on to power their 600 ohm monsters. Its my pet peeve because its precisely what I did.


----------



## violinvirtuoso

Quote: 





rroseperry said:


> Ok, I'm not completely sure about that last bit, but it does seem like in the older Head-Fi (from reading, I'm a relative noob) there was more exploration and less "Tell me the perfect IEM/DAP/amp for meeeeeee!" in the forums.


 
   
  I think your last point was a natural result of Head-Fi's increase in popularity. A couple years back, there wasn't nearly this many people on Head-Fi, nor did so many people look at Head-Fi.


----------



## rroseperry

Quote: 





violinvirtuoso said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Yeah, and that's the natural outcome of so many daps out there with crappy "come with" phones/earbuds.
   
  Head-Fi is a great resource. I would never have found my walk-around Fischer Silver Bullets without it. Or even known about customs. But there's a certain amount of ignorance and magical thinking on the site that doesn't (maybe can't) get enough challenge.
   
  Which sort of gets to estreeter's excellent point. We buy stuff that's the "best" without understanding how it works within a complete system of audio. But that's because most of us just don't know much. I read a bit about op amps after I got my first PA2V2. It wasn't easy (I close to failed the electronics side of physics in college) but I did get an idea of how they work, so I'm a little skeptical about claims people make.  But if you love music, you do want to get something good to put it in your ears, so when lots of people are writing  "X  is the best Y!11!!!1" it's hard not to try it out.


----------



## billybob_jcv

Quote: 





rroseperry said:


> Yeah, and that's the natural outcome of so many daps out there with crappy "come with" phones/earbuds.
> 
> Head-Fi is a great resource. I would never have found my walk-around Fischer Silver Bullets without it. Or even known about customs. But there's a certain amount of ignorance and magical thinking on the site that doesn't (maybe can't) get enough challenge.
> 
> Which sort of gets to estreeter's excellent point. We buy stuff that's the "best" without understanding how it works within a complete system of audio. But that's because most of us just don't know much. I read a bit about op amps after I got my first PA2V2. It wasn't easy (I close to failed the electronics side of physics in college) but I did get an idea of how they work, so I'm a little skeptical about claims people make.  But if you love music, you do want to get something good to put it in your ears, so when lots of people are writing  "X  is the best Y!11!!!1" it's hard not to try it out.


 

 That's not just head-fi, that's ALL of the audio/video world - and you can probably find analogous behavior in ANY hobby that uses any sort of equipment.  I've read many posts on many forums of all types where people are obsessing over some equipment specification that could not possibly actually have a noticeable affect on the result - but it will still drive their purchase decisions.  It doesn't matter if it's a portable headphone amp, or a home blu-ray player, or a pair of bowling shoes - people are still people....


----------



## Kubernetes

Quote: 





rroseperry said:


> Ok, I'm not completely sure about that last bit, but it does seem like in the older Head-Fi (from reading, I'm a relative noob) there was more exploration and less "Tell me the perfect IEM/DAP/amp for meeeeeee!" in the forums.


 


  True, but back when I joined exploration was required because there wasn't a huge base of experience.  Maybe two people had heard a pair of R10s and a handful had Stax rigs.  Nowadays it's easy to just ask "How does x sound compared to y for jazz?" and a dozen people can relate their experience.  Back then it was much more like "Hey what do those Audio-Techicas sound like?" "Buy 'em and tell us!"


----------



## rroseperry

Quote: 





kubernetes said:


> True, but back when I joined exploration was required because there wasn't a huge base of experience.  Maybe two people had heard a pair of R10s and a handful had Stax rigs.  Nowadays it's easy to just ask "How does x sound compared to y for jazz?" and a dozen people can relate their experience.  Back then it was much more like "Hey what do those Audio-Techicas sound like?" "Buy 'em and tell us!"


 

 That makes a lot of sense. I'm wondering whether the lack of experience and information lead to more of a conversational community. I could be mistaken, but I have the impression that there are people who come, ask their question and bounce out, never to be heard from again.
   
  But circling back to the point that revived this thread, do you think there was a more critical approach to equipment back in the beginning or was it simply a different flavor of fanboyism? I'm thinking about the threads where people are recommending gear they've never heard, simply read reviews by someone else. It sounds as though it was more experience-based.


----------



## estreeter

Gotta envy the people who asked a single question and never came back. Seriously.


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Gotta envy the people who asked a single question and never came back. Seriously.


 
  Yes. Out of curiosity, earlier today I looked up when he last posted. It was back in 2009. I guess it was a true goodbye. I thought maybe he went to a home unit and still posted on the big boy stuff but nope, did what I should probably do. lol


----------



## estreeter

Who are we kidding, Jam - if it wasnt audio it would be something truly wallet-destroying like camera gear.
   
  Now that I come to think of it, a lot of Head-Fiers seem to be obsessed with BOTH - that's got to be a one-way trip to bankruptcy


----------



## Kubernetes

Quote: 





rroseperry said:


> But circling back to the point that revived this thread, do you think there was a more critical approach to equipment back in the beginning or was it simply a different flavor of fanboyism?


 

 Kinda the same, kinda different.  There were certainly plenty of lurkers and plenty of the "X is the best, period" people.  And yeah there was a lot more hands on, but it's not like it was significantly more open-minded.  This was a Senn, Grado, and Ety fansite for quite a while.  When the first AT cans started being bought and reviewed here, they were really controversial and written off by many even without a listening session (you see, apart from the R10s, real audiophile headphones came from America or ze Germans).
   
  It's pretty inevitable that a site that gets this big will lose the original intimacy and energy, but still it's far better as a resource.  Look at Skylab's fantastic and and ginormous reviews and the huge numbers of people still trying out every headphone under the sun.  Pretty awesome, IMO.
   
  ***********
   
  Just reread the OP, and I gotta admit I focused so much on the lack of inherent weaknesses in portable hifi portion I kind of glossed over his early complaints about reviewers and the community.  I think he's quite a bit cynical.  Yes people get sucked into it, but it's not like people are here reading or reviewing equipment in bad faith.  Nobody can teach a noob the importance of trusting your own ears or seeking out reviewers who have similar music tastes and headphone tastes--you've just got to figure that out on your own.  
   
  Hell, my first pair of cans was the HD600.  Why? Because that's what everyone else was buying and raving about.  Then I got RS-1s.  Why? Same thing!  It wasn't until after that I realized I didn't particularly like either.  Know what I really liked?  My Sony e888 earbuds.  And then I found that other Head-Fiers liked them too and we talked about why we liked them, and after that choosing headphones has been easy.  But it's not like anyone could have told me that at the beginning.  I had to go through the stuff I didn't like to figure out what I do like.


----------



## billybob_jcv

I actually come to head-fi when I want to be involved in audio, but can't stomach the tens of thousands of dollars an entry-level listening room would require.  Spending $1000 on head-fi can get you some kick-@ss gear - but it won't get you out of the HTiB aisle at Best Buy!


----------



## estreeter

Quote:  





> Look at Skylab's fantastic and and ginormous reviews and the huge numbers of people still trying out every headphone under the sun.  Pretty awesome, IMO.


 

 Not sure of timelines, but one of the things that the OP identified as 'fuel for the fire' was the large number of reviews of portable kit - like anything, they vary wildly in quality and relevance. In Rob's defence, he didnt feel the need to hook an amp up to every combination under the sun and write a paragraph on each set of impressions - those threads can be entertaining, but inevitably confuse the hell out of some of us.


----------



## Kubernetes

Screw that.  Those big reviews are considerably more helpful than simple single-product reviews or even A-B reviews.  A description like "it's forward in the mids" is significantly more helpful if put in context against other cans, because at least there's a chance you'll have a point of reference.
   
  What does the OP want this site to be?  How can you distrust reviewers and still make intelligent purchasing decisions?  We read reviews because we don't want to waste money just buying and trying everything.


----------



## jamato8

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Who are we kidding, Jam - if it wasnt audio it would be something truly wallet-destroying like camera gear.
> 
> Now that I come to think of it, a lot of Head-Fiers seem to be obsessed with BOTH - that's got to be a one-way trip to bankruptcy


 
  Lol, yeah like camera gear. . . about 40 to 50 thousand invested in that. Well it does good and that is what I am using a lot of here in Micronesia. I made money shooting weddings, PR, and other events and not much on the visual anthropology and natural history but the latter two are what I do now.


----------



## rroseperry

Oh the pressure of the crowd, my first significant purchase after joining Head-fi were ety ER4Ps, because analytical was praised over warm or fun and because I'd had a pair of ER-6s from 2005.  I never loved those phones and was happy to sell them, once I got TF10s and Grado GR8s, both of which have sound signatures that I loved on first listen. But I bought analytical, because that seemed better, more sophisticated?
   
   
  Quote: 





kubernetes said:


> Screw that.  Those big reviews are considerably more helpful than simple single-product reviews or even A-B reviews.  A description like "it's forward in the mids" is significantly more helpful if put in context against other cans, because at least there's a chance you'll have a point of reference.
> 
> What does the OP want this site to be?  How can you distrust reviewers and still make intelligent purchasing decisions?  We read reviews because we don't want to waste money just buying and trying everything.


 

 I like the big reviews because they provide some context. I think the one thing that the OP was on to (even if he's not all that clear about it and pretty cynical) is that there are different reasons for this hobby and maybe looking at closely at our motives is not a completely bad idea. We're going to do the journey, because estreeter's right, if it weren't this, it would be something else, especially for the diy-er's who are in a different universe altogether.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





kubernetes said:


> What does the OP want this site to be?  How can you distrust reviewers and still make intelligent purchasing decisions?  We read reviews because we don't want to waste money just buying and trying everything.


 

 I think you have to put it into the context of the headphones he was trying to drive from a portable amp and ask yourself how happy someone would have been trying to drive the K701 from a portable - I know several people claim to be happy with the results, but a mains-powered amp of that era (2 1/2 years ago) would have given him a happier result, IMO. That said, both the mains-powered (one wallwart, one computer cable driven) have been disappointing with the K601 - there is no guarantee that he wouldnt have felt similarly about a $400 fullsize amp.


----------



## shigzeo

Insightful comment. I enjoy amps, but rarely, if ever, use them now. If a player needs an amp today, it is usually crap to begin with, or just doesn't get loud enough for some people. Blind testing at matched volumes with someone else at the switching helm will straighten perceived 'quality' out right quick. There are amps with actual 'sound' and others that just suck, but by and large, they are unneeded today for sound quality. Rather, they may (if all things are matched and eqaul) sound different, but I would hesitate to call those differences 'better'.
   
  Recently, I reviewed the hippo box+ with exactly that result. In the end, if I want a different sound, I use an EQ.
  
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Gotta envy the people who asked a single question and never came back. Seriously.


----------



## TheGame21x

I used to carry around amps and whatnot for my players but honestly, I don't see the point anymore. The 4th generation iPod Touch has more than enough power for the majority of my headphones (and all of the ones I'd want to use portably) so now, I just carry it and my Triple Fis around with me and all my needs are taken care of just fine.
   
  Having EQ apps such as EQu and Equalizer to adjust the sound to my liking is also pretty cool.


----------



## High_Q

I say, thats what low impedance, highly sensitive IEMs are for.  So that we won't need amping.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





high_q said:


> I say, thats what low impedance, highly sensitive IEMs are for.  So that we won't need amping.


 

 But then the internal headamp in a portable player usually can't bring out the best in a 'phone like a really good amp can, so...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
L to the O to the L, man!


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





mad max said:


> But then the internal headamp in a portable player usually can't bring out the best in a 'phone like a really good amp can, so...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 And this is where we come back to my *opinion* over science, but I am confident that any measurements ever run on the headphone out on each DAP would crown the X series Grand Champion. I still object to Sony's pricing, particularly as it included a 'mandatory' set of IEMs that they valued at around a hundred dollars. Remove those from the price, factor in a decent headphone amp and a substitute DAP would cost around the same money as the X, if not more.


----------



## TraceyG

My main issue is that amping a source makes the source sound better...my problem is that I use an iphone as my source, so its rather silly to haul around an interconnect and amp for a phone. Why don't manufacturers put in a decent amp in their phones and, especially, their mp3 players?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> And this is where we come back to my *opinion* over science, but I am confident that any measurements ever run on the headphone out on each DAP would crown the X series Grand Champion. I still object to Sony's pricing, particularly as it included a 'mandatory' set of IEMs that they valued at around a hundred dollars. Remove those from the price, factor in a decent headphone amp and a substitute DAP would cost around the same money as the X, if not more.


 
   
  And it looks like the X series is being phased out lately.  =\
   


  Quote: 





traceyg said:


> My main issue is that amping a source makes the source sound better...my problem is that I use an iphone as my source, so its rather silly to haul around an interconnect and amp for a phone. Why don't manufacturers put in a decent amp in their phones and, especially, their mp3 players?


 
   
  Well, have you noticed the size of those really good amps' circuits?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  No one is going to stick that in their product.  Waaaay too big, and the general public does not demand that kind of performance.


----------



## JordanUK

I've been looking into this too. I wanted to get a portable amp for my iPod as I am going to purchase a pair of Sennheiser HD650's. Will the 650's run amazingly straight from my iPod, iPhone or Cowon and not need amping?
   
  Or is this crucial. I'm stuck on this one! 
   
  Thanks guys..


----------



## trentino

The HD650 will not sound nice out of an ipod. It most definitely needs an amp.


----------



## mrarroyo

Quote: 





jordanuk said:


> I've been looking into this too. I wanted to get a portable amp for my iPod as I am going to purchase a pair of Sennheiser HD650's. Will the 650's run amazingly straight from my iPod, iPhone or Cowon and not need amping?
> 
> Or is this crucial. I'm stuck on this one!
> 
> Thanks guys..


 

 Hi Jordan, this is a very personal thing and what "we" hear may not be what "you" hear. The HD650 are a very well liked headphone by many. I prefer the HD600 or even the HD580 since I found the bass in the HD650 too boomy. The Sennheisers HD580/600/650 are 300 ohms and IMO are a bit too demanding to be powered by the iPod/iPhone. Also will you be using the HD650 at home/office? I ask because for on the go they will most likely disappoint you since they are open backed cans and you will hear all the surrounding road noise.
   
  If for home use I would suggest a full size amp. BTW, if you use the iPod as a source what type of files are you storing on it? Do you have a line out dock to feed your amp of choice? You may want to attend a meet to hear various amps before making your decision. Good luck.


----------



## billybob_jcv

Quote: 





mad max said:


> And it looks like the X series is being phased out lately.  =\
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

  
  Yup - the VAST majority of the world thinks the Apple buds are just fine.  Or, they think you need a pair of Bose for "real" listening.  We here at head-fi are a tiny minority that know better...


----------



## shigzeo

It sounds great from an iPod, just doesn't get that loud. Since volume is the most intimate revealer of so-called sound quality between good sources, the impression that the will sound rubbish, is quite a deaf opinion. I prefer them from a source with more muscle, but they, the HD800 and even 600Ω phones sound great from portables.
  
  Quote: 





trentino said:


> The HD650 will not sound nice out of an ipod. It most definitely needs an amp.


----------



## shigzeo

The X and its little brother A84x series sound fine (apart from hiss and some audible clicking artefacts), but they don't actually run earphones with multiple drivers any better than does an iPod touch 2G. Both balk as crossovers get complicated, but both represent the best real performance in their day. I like both very much, but neither can hold a candle to the new iPod touch or even shuffle for actual, measured performance. Sony's dynamics taming EQ is still one of the most pleasing on the market, but the same effect can now be had thanks to EQu, or if you value untamed dynamics a little more, Equalizer (that has a great new version). 
  
  Quote: 





estreeter said:


> And this is where we come back to my *opinion* over science, but I am confident that any measurements ever run on the headphone out on each DAP would crown the X series Grand Champion. I still object to Sony's pricing, particularly as it included a 'mandatory' set of IEMs that they valued at around a hundred dollars. Remove those from the price, factor in a decent headphone amp and a substitute DAP would cost around the same money as the X, if not more.


----------



## Kubernetes

Yeah but portable cans with high impedance is a major design fail, IMO.  They should sound good out of a portable player.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> But then the internal headamp in a portable player usually can't bring out the best in a 'phone like a really good amp can, so...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mad Max

I wasn't talking about high-impedance 'phones specifically.


----------



## b0wl1ng

A very interesting and at times funny thread, very enjoyable, I am relatively new to the portable set up scene and have undoubtably wasted money to get to where I am now.
  I have a super home set up and needed and wanted a good sounding portable rig, this has now been achieved ,albeit semi-portable when listening with the Denon AH-D5000s on.
  This is the rub really, the smaller footprint and true audiophile quality is difficult to capture in a small portable package, I run an 80gb imod through a corda stepdance amp with the best synergy played through the Denons, the sound quality is exceptional, but as has been mentioned a set up like this is far from cheap, but to have over 10,000 songs in a lossless format in your pocket and a stella sound, more than makes up for any shortcomings.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

My idea of a portable setup is one you take to OTHER places, and not WHILE you go to other places.
   
  For example:
   
  I'm gonna be taking my soon to arrive Fiio E11 to power my soon to come MS1i (MAYBE, haven't decided), while they're hooked up to my soon to come Fiio X3 DAP. This is WHILE I'm sitting down at work. There's absolutely no way in hell I'd actually use all this while I'm out and about per se. For that, I'll just use my Sansa Fuze with a pair of IEMs, nothing between them. On the go setups are silly, for sure.


----------



## ChipnDalebowl

I think portable audio has its purpose - as you drive somewhere, walk somewhere, are waiting for something, etc.  In these cases, you just want a portable player, some basic headset that isn't too large, and some good tunes.  You don't need no hi-fi setup--too much noise around you.  Low to mid-fi is about all your ears are going to be able to discern given the environment.  Don't spend more than $75 if you're into portable audio because there is no point given the environment.  Diminishing returns set in very quickly.


----------



## shigzeo

When you drive, you should not be listening to headphones of any sort, ever.


----------



## GeorgeGoodman

Quote: 





shigzeo said:


> When you drive, you should not be listening to headphones of any sort, ever.


 

 I totally agree. For a bus ride, however, I had tons of fun with my friends with my myriad of cheap portable gear. I was able to appreciate the sound quality differences, especially in IEMs. There is definitely limited usefulness to putting a lot of money in a portable rig, but it is fun and enjoyable none the less, and I think the point where you are wasting your money is higher than just a small DAP and IEMs.


----------



## manaox2

Not sure whether its a good or bad thing this thread still seems relevant. These days I'm running with the Droid X smartphone, Poweramp app, and PX-100 mkII for portability. My old iPod shuffle connection seems a bit loose. Been a long time since I had this:
   

   
  I won't be going back that direction anytime soon. If custom IEMs were a good fit for me, I'd probably get the JHA JH-13 or JH-16 and call it a day. Yep, it seems that easy to get to the top, without all the hassle. Its no where near worth the money and hassle most of you guys seem to go through IMO.


----------



## shigzeo

I'm rarely without earphones on the morning bus or train. Bloody Korean bus drivers are so dangerous, love oncoming traffic lanes and clipping kids' ankles that earphones help keep me from cursing very loudly in a very obnoxious Canadian accent.
  
  Quote: 





georgegoodman said:


> I totally agree. For a bus ride, however, I had tons of fun with my friends with my myriad of cheap portable gear. I was able to appreciate the sound quality differences, especially in IEMs. There is definitely limited usefulness to putting a lot of money in a portable rig, but it is fun and enjoyable none the less, and I think the point where you are wasting your money is higher than just a small DAP and IEMs.


----------



## Red Haze

Quote: 





shigzeo said:


> It sounds great from an iPod, just doesn't get that loud. Since volume is the most intimate revealer of so-called sound quality between good sources, the impression that the will sound rubbish, is quite a deaf opinion. I prefer them from a source with more muscle, but they, the HD800 and even 600Ω phones sound great from portables.


 
  I don't agree with power hungry headphones sounding good from an iPod. My 600ohm Beyerdynamic's sound awful straight out of my Cowon J3.


----------



## Antony6555

I good pair of iems and a decent source should be how portable hi-fi is defined. Anything beyond this gets silly imo


----------



## Kubernetes

Hey, portable cans are good in the right situations!  I take my ESW9s on my commute, but if I'm going out I'll use IEMs on the ride there.


----------



## shigzeo

Then something is terribly wrong with you J3 as their sound signature stays the same no matter what drives them.
  
  Quote: 





red haze said:


> I don't agree with power hungry headphones sounding good from an iPod. My 600ohm Beyerdynamic's sound awful straight out of my Cowon J3.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





shigzeo said:


> Then something is terribly wrong with you J3 as their sound signature stays the same no matter what drives them.


 

 I couldn't disagree more, as far as HD600 and DT880-250ohm.  Or is it just the J3 that is that good?


----------



## kingpage

Quote: 





b0wl1ng said:


> A very interesting and at times funny thread, very enjoyable, I am relatively new to the portable set up scene and have undoubtably wasted money to get to where I am now.
> I have a super home set up and needed and wanted a good sounding portable rig, this has now been achieved ,albeit semi-portable when listening with the Denon AH-D5000s on.
> This is the rub really, the smaller footprint and true audiophile quality is difficult to capture in a small portable package, I run an 80gb imod through a corda stepdance amp with the best synergy played through the Denons, the sound quality is exceptional, but as has been mentioned a set up like this is far from cheap, but to have over 10,000 songs in a lossless format in your pocket and a stella sound, more than makes up for any shortcomings.


 

 80GB capacity with 10000 lossless songs? Each song is only around 8MB? That's some compression you've got there.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





kingpage said:


> 80GB capacity with 10000 lossless songs? Each song is only around 8MB? That's some compression you've got there.


 

 That seems to be the figure I get when I compress a WAV file to 128K mp3 for DBT.  Teenagers dont seem to mind 128K, but for the rest of us ...


----------



## Sumpfkraut

Quote: 





jamato8 said:


> What ever floats you down that river of bliss. Sometimes it is the wind in the trees. It's portable and free. All these electronickey things. I wonder if T Rex would have rocked out? :^)


 


  I can't imagine myself listening to portable sources other than on summer camps or comparable occasions. I enjoy listening to nature and chatter in the tram way too much. Yet still, I want that to sound good, so I'm gonna get some reasonably good gear anyway. Nothing like what an experienced audiophile would call good, but something someone whose most advanced audio purchase was a 170€ 5.1 system would find good. And certainly that's not a great strain on one's budget...


----------



## munkyballz

Haha, great thread.  Surprised didn't discover this earlier.  Honestly, as anything thing, this certainly is a niche hobby with its unique pluses and minuses (and attitudes/opinions).


----------



## gus6464

I just got some PFE 112's and they sound damn good on my ipad 2 which is what I carry with me now everywhere I go. When I am on a plane/train it is all I need but when I am at a hotel I miss my DT770's. Only reason I want a portable amp is to listen to my Beyers while laying on a hotel bed. Other than that I can't really see the need for a portable amp and even then why would anyone want to listen to music with some HD650/DT770/880/990/701 or any other big cans while on a train or flight is beyond me.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





gus6464 said:


> I just got some PFE 112's and they sound damn good on my ipad 2 which is what I carry with me now everywhere I go. When I am on a plane/train it is all I need but when I am at a hotel I miss my DT770's. Only reason I want a portable amp is to listen to my Beyers while laying on a hotel bed. Other than that I can't really see the need for a portable amp and even then why would anyone want to listen to music with some HD650/DT770/880/990/701 or any other big cans while on a train or flight is beyond me.


 

 Read ljokerl's epic thread on universal IEMs then come back and tell us if you can see why some folk might want a portable amp. Note that he is fundamentally opposed to the idea of carrying an amp for the sake of it, but read the entire thread. Note also that some of us are more intent on finding a 'transportable' rig such as the one you have described than on portable use - I can plug my a-Jays Three straight into my Nano for that.


----------



## SH0RTBUS

I'm just a goober. I enjoy gadgets, thingymajigs, thingymabobs, etc. An ipod by itself is just to simple for me. I almost bought the Ibasso DB2 and PB2 just because I like the way it would look with the fat balanced IC and big plugs. I am picky about the looks and feel of items I buy. I would pay more for an amp because of something like the inputs/outputs being in locations that are more aethetically pleasing to me, or more for a cable because I like its texture, size, color, etc.
   
  I don't believe for a second that high dollar cables, LODs, or plugs sound any better than an inexpensive, good quality component. I work daily with high dollar (millions of dollars each) products. These items don't use fancy, high dollar wire, but they work exactly as they should.  I'm also not one who believes in things like cable burn-in, cable risers, or other special treatments for my wires. As long as they are quality copper they seem to work just fine for me. I want to be impressed with each product right out of the box. If it doesn't do this I am disappointed.  I do believe amps can improve the sound. My ipod alone is too quiet with my UE4 pros, with the Fiio E7 it is great.
   
  These are just my thought as this is a new hobby for me. Like most everything I go into, I go in full speed and run out of gas and interest relatively quickly. I'm sure this will be no different.


----------



## calipilot227

You make some very good points. I've never been a fan of portable amps because of the added bulk. It's not that hard to find portable headphones or IEMs that are easy to drive.
   
  I think the only part of my portable rig that will ever change is my IEMs, but that won't be for a while.
   
  I am currently perfectly happy with my iPod Classic (or Sansa Clip+ if I'm traveling light), FiiO E5, and UE Triple.fi 10s. The ONLY reason that I even bother with the E5 is to boost the mids of my triple.fi's slightly (probably my only gripe about their sound signature), as the iPod's EQ only adds distortion. I would never carry around an amp that costs as much or more than my DAP.


----------



## estreeter

I've only ever taken one amp to work that elicited 'oohs' and 'aahs' - the iBasso T3 - and that was because the other cubicle captives couldnt believe that such a big sound could come out of something so small. Anything larger just didnt seem to register as 'cool' with the masses.
   
  Personally, I would happily carry the XP-7 or even the HP-2 to a hotel room to get the sound I want.


----------



## AVU

I'm going to be doing a review of the balanced iBasso Toucan, iBasso T3D, the RSA Shadow, and the Headamp Pico Slim on my JH13s this week, if anyone's interested, but one thing I can say already in preliminary testing: there is a HUGE difference between what I can hear in the dead quiet of my apartment and what I can hear when I'm out walking around NYC, in the subway, etc.  Even with the great isolation of the JH13 customs, differences that seem pretty obvious between the three, and even amped vs unamped from my iphone4, pretty much vanish in real world usage.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





avu said:


> I'm going to be doing a review of the balanced iBasso Toucan, iBasso T3D, the RSA Shadow, and the Headamp Pico Slim on my JH13s this week, if anyone's interested, but one thing I can say already in preliminary testing: there is a HUGE difference between what I can hear in the dead quiet of my apartment and what I can hear when I'm out walking around NYC, in the subway, etc.  Even with the great isolation of the JH13 customs, differences that seem pretty obvious between the three, and even amped vs unamped from my iphone4, pretty much vanish in real world usage.


 

 Can someone point me to said review, please ? It must have come and gone from the first page of 'Portable Amps' very quickly - surprising given the number of people who wants comparisons with the Shadow and Pico Slim.


----------



## AVU

hey, sorry - didn't do it yet.  Ordered a balanced TWcu from Craig at Whiplash cables, and after a few weeks, finally arrived - single ended!  So it had to be sent back, and I've been without a balanced cable to hear the toucan.  I could give impressions on the other three, but the Toucan is the one I'm really curious about, so I'm waiting waiting waiting on craig...


----------



## estreeter

OK - ta. I suspect that you are comparing apples with oranges, but I'm sure you have your reasons - I will look forward to it.
   
  My E9 should be here by Thursday - plan to put together a brief comparison with my portables on the basis that we are constantly told that portables cant compete with entry-level home amps. Maybe mine cant - I guess I'll find out soon enough.


----------



## WindowsX

Yes it's silly. And now it's stupid talking about low powered balanced conversion with great deal of THD added.


----------



## estreeter

Who you calling 'stupid', fool ?
   
  Mr T


----------



## WindowsX

Oops sorry. I didn't meant to say anything to posts in this thread. It's just I got fed up with balanced hype for poor conversion from single-ended.


----------



## estreeter

FWIW, I think its fine IF YOU ALREADY OWN A BALANCED SOURCE AND BALANCED PHONES. For those who are spending over a thousand dollars simply to 'keep up with the Joneses' in portable amp land, I have to ask if that money might have been better spent elsewhere.
   
  This thread is about questioning ourselves - I love my portable kit, but not to the extent that I am prepared to spend thousands on portable audio. Clearly, others feel differently - end of the day, its their money.


----------



## freeky1

I'm glad this thread is still open and going strong! This is the best thread concerning portable "rigs" I have ever read!

Sent from my Etch A Sketch


----------



## etys rule

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> FWIW, I think its fine IF YOU ALREADY OWN A BALANCED SOURCE AND BALANCED PHONES. For those who are spending over a thousand dollars simply to 'keep up with the Joneses' in portable amp land, I have to ask if that money might have been better spent elsewhere.
> 
> This thread is about questioning ourselves - I love my portable kit, but not to the extent that I am prepared to spend thousands on portable audio. Clearly, others feel differently - end of the day, its their money.


 

 +1
   
  Although I haven't read this entire thread, I am of a similar opinion.  I have been around for almost ten years now.  I've owned a number of portable amps (over 25).  Right now, I am using a $40 Sansa Fuze with a $50 cmoy-bb and my UM2's.  For my needs, it fits the bill.  We can rationalize expensive purchases all day long.  In the end, it's all about the music.
   
  And those who have heard my rig agree.  I could go with more expensive gear, but why?  I'm not listening critically with this rig.  This is all about the music.  You can't get better sound, in my opinion.  And my GF appreciates me not obsessing about headphone gear, and spending more money on her.


----------



## AVU

You know, one thing that definitely does make a difference, and in a good way, is the equalizer app for the iphone.  Its a 7 band parametric eq with adjustable Q for each band, so you can eliminate hiss on old recordings without taking out all the highs, add +4db of 40-64htz bass to eq low listening levels, etc.  Doesn't sound good without an amp, but with my T3D, it sounds great and makes a big difference for some material.  Well worth the $2.99.


----------



## estreeter

@etys rule: sadly, after spending ludicrous amounts of money on a female in 2008-2010, I was relieved to return to spending money on audio !


----------



## WindowsX

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> @etys rule: sadly, after spending ludicrous amounts of money on a female in 2008-2010, I was relieved to return to spending money on audio !


 


  Thumbs up on your decision. Audio is cheap comparing to.....err.....yup


----------



## maverickronin

Headphones are cheap compared to...
   
  Speakers
  Women
  Cars
  Motorcycles
  Boats
  Art collections
  etc...
  etc...


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> OK - ta. I suspect that you are comparing apples with oranges, but I'm sure you have your reasons - I will look forward to it.
> 
> My E9 should be here by Thursday - plan to put together a brief comparison with my portables on the basis that we are constantly told that portables cant compete with entry-level home amps. Maybe mine cant - I guess I'll find out soon enough.


 

 That sounds awesome! Are you going to compare with iems or full-sized headphones?
   
  I know that everything is so subjective but sometimes it's nice to hear someone you trust (especially when money is tight) say... "The entry level desktop really is that much better" or "You know, despite everyone saying the opposite, I think that a P4 can compare to the E9." I think that part of the problem is that the people who spend hard-earned money have to justify their expenditure! I mean you feel either like a traitor or a rebel saying you prefer the IE7 to the IE8 or the SE425 to the SE535, the UHA-4 to the Holy Grail. Everything is a statement, whether a vote to life-long loyalty to a brand or its a slap in the face to the man wearing the headphones in the logo. Where's the music?!
   
  I've had a horrible time trying to figure out whether a qualit portable amp (like a P4) will "drive those headphones to their maximum potential" (whatever that means) or whether "getting an amp is throwing good money after bad if your sources is an ipod classic." I'm tired of wondering how much you need to spend on a line out. It gets old and takes the fun out of the hobby.
   
  It's not that I don't crave opinions. I love them. You just want balanced, well-thought out opinions from people who value sound, money and most of all music. Not knee jerk reactions. Which I have to confess, I've participated in, like with all the hubbub about the Westone 4. I put out way too many initial impressions. This forum breeds knee-jerk reactions. In fact, I create the system by anxiously waiting for the next knee jerk reaction. I am the reason why I'm always worrying about what I have, about what's better, about when something will be released and I'm the reason why I forget about the music.


----------



## estreeter

@imackler,
   
  The key to purchase justification/inflated expectations and placebo is simple : *dont deny the impact they have on your appreciation of a product*.
   
  Its only when we acknowledge these things that, imo, they become less of a thorn in our collective sides. In my case, do I need to justify the more expensive portable over the cheaper fullsize amp, or do I simply need to justify the fact that I have two cheap amps when I could have spent to combined total on a single desktop with better sonics ?
   
  As far as the P4 driving a pair of cans to the 'optimum', how can I possibly know what that optimum is without access to better kit in the first place ?
   
  Trust me, you can do your head in with these sorts of comparisons. Its one of the reasons that 'serious' reviewers spend a lot of time telling you how much their reference rigs cost


----------



## Ckaz

I posted a thread asking for help deciding between a portable or full sized system. This thread seems like a great place to pose the question, so here it is..
   
   
  I am thinking it's finally time to get some amplification going for my headphones. Right now, I have the Denon D-5000's, and I have plans for getting a pair of custom IEM's at some point in the distant future. My reason for getting an amp is not simply to go louder, my iPod can drive my Denon's plenty loud, as I'm sure they'll be able to with IEM's. I simply feel that running D5000's out of an iPod isn't extracting all of the potential out of the headphones.

   

  At first I thought that a portable would be the obvious choice - this way I'm prepared for the future when I get my IEM's, and providing I get a good portable, it will help the sound of the Denon's.

   

  But I'm having second thoughts. My budget is in the $300 range.. for portables that really isn't that great, but for full-sized amps I could probably snag a used PS Audio GHCA for that price. Maybe it would be best to get a full-sized now, and then when I'm finally ready for IEM's I can look at buying a portable for a more decent price since I won't be needing to drive the D-5000's off it.

   

  What do you guys think?


----------



## estreeter

If you dont absolutely need (trans)portability, and I include the bedside rig in this, get the fullsize amp.


----------



## CEE TEE

I think that is a good idea...also you will want to get the iems and live with them a little while so you know what you would want from the portable amp.  There are different demands from some iems (RE-series 150 ohm) and also sound signature.  Want a brighter/darker amp, for instance?

  
  Quote: 





ckaz said:


> I posted a thread asking for help deciding between a portable or full sized system. This thread seems like a great place to pose the question, so here it is..
> 
> 
> I am thinking it's finally time to get some amplification going for my headphones. Right now, I have the Denon D-5000's, and I have plans for getting a pair of custom IEM's at some point in the distant future. My reason for getting an amp is not simply to go louder, my iPod can drive my Denon's plenty loud, as I'm sure they'll be able to with IEM's. I simply feel that running D5000's out of an iPod isn't extracting all of the potential out of the headphones.
> ...


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





imackler said:


> That sounds awesome! Are you going to compare with iems or full-sized headphones?
> 
> I know that everything is so subjective but sometimes it's nice to hear someone you trust (especially when money is tight) say... "The entry level desktop really is that much better" or "You know, despite everyone saying the opposite, I think that a P4 can compare to the E9." I think that part of the problem is that the people who spend hard-earned money have to justify their expenditure! I mean you feel either like a traitor or a rebel saying you prefer the IE7 to the IE8 or the SE425 to the SE535, the UHA-4 to the Holy Grail. Everything is a statement, whether a vote to life-long loyalty to a brand or its a slap in the face to the man wearing the headphones in the logo. Where's the music?!
> 
> I've had a horrible time trying to figure out whether a qualit portable amp (like a P4) will "drive those headphones to their maximum potential" (whatever that means) or whether "getting an amp is throwing good money after bad if your sources is an ipod classic." I'm tired of wondering how much you need to spend on a line out. It gets old and takes the fun out of the hobby.


 

  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *estreeter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> The key to purchase justification/inflated expectations and placebo is simple : *dont deny the impact they have on your appreciation of a product*.
> 
> Its only when we acknowledge these things that, imo, they become less of a thorn in our collective sides. In my case, do I need to justify the more expensive portable over the cheaper fullsize amp, or do I simply need to justify the fact that I have two cheap amps when I could have spent to combined total on a single desktop with better sonics ?


 
   
  imackler, unfortunately, I'm only going to be comparing everything with the JH13.  That's all I presently own. 
   
  A lot of this is simply what you intend to be using the unit for.  In my case, I realized that while the very best portables had better SQ, this difference was negated in real world experience, since the places I tend to use the unit outside are so noisy.  Now someone out in the quiet suburbs listening to their LCD-2 on the porch has totally different considerations than me - they need really high power, they want SQ bc it'll make a difference.  
   
  I have a pretty detailed comparison I did a while ago on somewhere here about the ibasso D4 and the Audio-gd sparrow.  The D4 was tricked out - it had the highflight mod, it had the 9.6v batteries, and it was considered by SkyFlight to be absolutely top tier in terms of portable Dac/Amps.  I loved it.  But in comparison with the similarly priced Sparrow, it lost out just a bit to the desktop unit on liquidity, presence, and bass impact.  So if you need portable, D4 was great, but if it didn't matter, Sparrow was the way to go.


----------



## estreeter

I'm not one of the nutters (honest..) who would pay $400+ for a replacement PSU to drive a $140 amp, but I have to wonder if the E9 and similar amps are held back by their wallwarts. The P4 is still the cleanest-sounding amp I've heard.


----------



## ninjikiran

I was thinking about getting a colorfly just because it looks sexy, plays multiple formats and is not an ipod.  At the same time might I wouldn't mind an ipod if I had more MP3's, the hippo gumstick variant I own is imo a bit underwhelming and has the processing power of a peanut.


----------



## WindowsX

Get Galaxy Tab+Voodoo+Poweramp and life is set for something worth your budget with hifi.


----------



## ninjikiran

If only I could get acceptable performance out of my G2 (HTC-Vision)  My only problem with the galaxy tab is unless you jailbreak(or buy an extremely overpriced no carrier) you are almost required to grab it with a 3g plan.


----------



## estreeter

Its annoying when you go back to something you previously discarded as 'not up to scratch' and it sounds good - must be placebo 
   
  I think most of us will concede that the KSC-75 is about as good as it gets in an over-ear headphone for $35 - happy to hear otherwise - but I spent a long time deriding the SQ on my 2009 Touch and iPod EQ in general. Sitting here in a (cough) McDonalds, the overblown 'Rock' setting somehow makes sense with the 75s - cheap thrills that most here wouldn't look twice at. Isolation is near zero, but the Portapros would help with that - in any case, I dont need the Solo stack to enjoy some Van Halen in a truly dreadful setting : something to think about when I'm outlining the benefits of owning two more portable amps later this week.


----------



## AndrewG

I left portable a couple mo's back to try solid state, I went from a 71B/hifiman 801 to a WA6SE/801, while the 6SE was better in some ways, the portable set up was also better in some ways. that is why im going back to portable. so it was not so black and white.
   
  here is another thing, my WA6SE amp was so strong it began to make headphones sound the same, I was hearing the amp in them. the portable set up for me didnt overpower the headphones


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Its annoying when you go back to something you previously discarded as 'not up to scratch' and it sounds good - must be placebo


 
   
  I had a similar experience.
   
  While configuring a new HD for a laptop I wanted to listen to some music, so I dug out my Pico dac and Portaphile V2 Maxxed amp.  I grabbed the 701s I never listen to (because they were right there) and fired it up.  What a surprise.  It sounded great.
   
  Good combo for the 701s.
   
  USG


----------



## Donnyhifi

Luminette,
   
  You're rig is abit chunky for a portable but atleast its not as bad as this:


----------



## CEE TEE

^The belt-driven supercharger has long been an accepted way of increasing performance without the use of increased displacement.
   
  0-60khz transient times have been dramatically improved.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
*In just ONE YEAR since I read this thread, there are SO many more portable source/amp/phone possibilities...is portable Hi-Fi STILL too silly???*
   
*In ONE MORE YEAR, we'll see many more ways to get bit-perfect digital out of high-capacity sources and incredibly resolving custom iems with active DSP.*
   
*When is portable Hi-Fi "not so silly" anymore?*
   
*And- Headphones vs. Speakers:  STAX SR-009 with Smyth Realizer and a T2 or BHSE...when this is obtainable for more people (hope, hope-itty, hope)...will headphones score serious points against speakers?*


----------



## estreeter

cee tee, its 'silly' while any of the following remain true:
   
  1. folk who actually have little need for a truly portable solution beyond DAP+IEMs insist on trying to replicate a 'desktop' rig in a smaller form factor
   
  2. we bemoan the sheer size of rigs like the stack shown above, yet bitch about the tight integration of something like the new Fostex transport/DAC/amp.
   
  3. we eventually build a 'killer' transportable rig, only to realise that the total spend equals the amount required for a very good desktop rig. This is especially true if our transportable rig never leaves the bedside table (gulp ...)
   
  Individual components are definitely improving, but that doesnt negate some of the seriously diminishing returns inherent in some of our decision-making.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> cee tee, its 'silly' while any of the following remain true:
> 
> 1. folk who actually have little need for a truly portable solution beyond DAP+IEMs insist on trying to replicate a 'desktop' rig in a smaller form factor
> 
> ...


 

 It won't be silly at all once someone crams a Realiser into a portable amp.  Soundstage is the only area where IEMs are handicapped against full size 'phones and a good DSP can replicate a speaker's soundstage.  Then you'll be able to hold a good chunk of any set of speakers in the palm of your hand.
   
  Who needs to worry about replicating a desktop headphone rig when you can work on replicating a speaker rig and listening room?  That gets rid of 1 and 3 while 2 is irrelevant because its always true about everything.  Someone will always complain about anything.


----------



## CEE TEE

^^Ah, maybe both of you have very good points... 
   
Portable Hi-Fi will be totally realized when:

 Prices are lower (but when has Hi-Fi or "State of the Art" been inexpensive?)
 Size is reduced (compared to the "portable" stack above with 4 components)
 Crossover DSP + DSP equivalent to Smyth can mimic soundstage
 More physical sensation can be reproduced or simulated (I'm adding this one)
   
_Until then, I'm really amazed by just iPhone + UE RM...incredibly portable._


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> It won't be silly at all once someone crams a Realiser into a portable amp.  Soundstage is the only area where IEMs are handicapped against full size 'phones and a good DSP can replicate a speaker's soundstage.  Then you'll be able to hold a good chunk of any set of speakers in the palm of your hand.
> 
> Who needs to worry about replicating a desktop headphone rig when you can work on replicating a speaker rig and listening room?  That gets rid of 1 and 3 while 2 is irrelevant because its always true about everything.  Someone will always complain about anything.


 

 I'd settle for some basic binaural.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> I'd settle for some basic binaural.


 


  Given that it would require time travel in order to get your favorite albums recorded that way back when the musicians were sill alive and/or on speaking terms with each other I think the portable Realiser is much more doable.


----------



## manaox2

JH Audio just finished shipping the first few JH-3A with the active DSP and crossovers this week. We have a while before the realiser becomes portable it seems, but I will be frightened by the scary good sound I'm imagining when those two items meet to become one manageable portable product and hope it happens in my lifetime before all my hearing is destroyed by the average noise in today's metro areas and lifestyles.
   
  I do think estreeter nailed it based on portable audio's state thus far. Custom IEMs and a decent mp3 player can be both small and sound really amazing, but seeing these transportable rigs still seems a little over the top. I can get by in a quiet environment on the go with just the Droid X with poweramp installed and the PX-100 mkII even with its admittedly non Hi-Fi status. Its a ton of fun with all the music and video services for wireless devices these days and its a great way to find new music and pass time compared to the standard iPod classic days.


----------



## CEE TEE

Thanks for chiming in manaox2...I had actually hoped you might comment!
   
  Next year I'll check in with you again, you not only have experience with the top Headphone rigs but also know what great speaker set-ups can do as well...
   
  It would be cool to see your stamp of Hi Fi approval on a rig that is truly "portable."
   
  Until then, I'll enjoy UE RM and iPhone (with maybe an amp...and maybe a digital-out device...and...)


----------



## Alghazanth

This is why I just stick to IEMs out of the house.


----------



## Antony6555

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> It won't be silly at all once someone crams a Realiser into a portable amp.  Soundstage is the only area where IEMs are handicapped against full size 'phones and a good DSP can replicate a speaker's soundstage.  Then you'll be able to hold a good chunk of any set of speakers in the palm of your hand.
> 
> Who needs to worry about replicating a desktop headphone rig when you can work on replicating a speaker rig and listening room?  That gets rid of 1 and 3 while 2 is irrelevant because its always true about everything.  Someone will always complain about anything.


 
  Do you think portable amps are silly?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





antony6555 said:


> Yeah but aren't all the portable amps still silly? I mean most iems do not need portable amps, as a pro-science person I assume you'll agree?


 

 They can be silly.  It depends on a lot of things.
   
  First off, I think its likely that something like a Realiser will be crammed into a separate box form the DAP first because UI, DSP, and portable hardware design competency don't overlap with much frequency.  Second, as far as I'm concerned all DAPs on the market I currently know of suck.  You have to pick your poison.  My D2+'s poison is a bass roll-off with low-Z 'phones and an amp fixes that.  Plenty of other DAPs have similar problems (eg high output impedance) with their HP out but someone may like them for other reasons.  Third, is other options that an amp can provide like the adjustable crossfeed on my XM6.  Fourth, in the Euro zone, regulations on output power for phones and DAPs are apparently (I've only heard this, not tested it or looked up the numbers) so tight that a few IEMs and many portable 'phones don't get sufficient volume from the HP out alone.  Fifth is redundancy.  My XM6 is already my office amp/DAC so why not use it on the go?
   
  If none of those apply to you and you're using IEMs or efficient portables then using a portable amp may well be silly.  I probably missed a few edge cases.  Three of those apply to me.  My SE530s sure don't need the close to a full watt my XM6 can put out but since it fixes the bass roll off on my D2+, gives me crossfeed, and I'd have bought it to use at work anyway I might as well just use it all the time.  I also tend to get headaches if I don't use crossfeed so to me it would be worth it just for that feature alone.
   
  Of course even after outlining all that, it still doesn't apply to most people who buy portable amps, or at least most of the ones that are vocal about it.


----------



## caracara08

i was thinking of getting an ampf or my jh16 and j3 but i wonder if its worth the money... low ohm, high sensitivity. =\


----------



## estreeter

I remain stunned by the number of Head-Fiers who continue to believe that the primary purpose of an amplifier is to provide increased volume. I think Boomana puts it very succinctly in his guide for newbies - sadly, few of us seem willing to read it.
   
_Sure, they’ll make your headphones louder, but loudness does not equal sound quality, which is the real purpose of amplification. *A properly driven headphone sounds amazing at very low volumes*_
   
  I've bolded that last sentence because that is exactly what many of us are looking for in an amp (and its why I finally spent money on a decent LOD) - we are actually crazy enough to believe that we can improve on the sound quality emitted via the headphone out on our current source. I know - wheel me off to the nuthouse where I can get the help I so desperately need.


----------



## estreeter

My apologies to Boomana and all those who were offended by my ealier reference to 'his' gender.


----------



## CEE TEE

estreeter- I think the poster above is referring to the possible need of an amp for volume increase because the EU restricts the maximum volume of some players for hearing health.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I remain stunned by the number of Head-Fiers who continue to believe that the primary purpose of an amplifier is to provide increased volume. I think Boomana puts it very succinctly in his guide for newbies - sadly, few of us seem willing to read it.
> 
> _Sure, they’ll make your headphones louder, but loudness does not equal sound quality, which is the real purpose of amplification. *A properly driven headphone sounds amazing at very low volumes*_
> 
> I've bolded that last sentence because that is exactly what many of us are looking for in an amp (and its why I finally spent money on a decent LOD) - we are actually crazy enough to believe that we can improve on the sound quality emitted via the headphone out on our current source. I know - wheel me off to the nuthouse where I can get the help I so desperately need.


 

 That's pretty much the definition of an amplifier.  It provides gain, otherwise it isn't actually an amplifier...
   
  Practically though, the purpose of an amp is to make your transducers sound good and there's nothing wrong with replacing or bypassing one amp in order to use a better one.  Of course, now we get bogged down by the question of what constitutes "better"....


----------



## estreeter

Hmm - 7 months on, and time to resurrect this old girl, methinks. As we get more and more kiddies in the 'Portable Amps' section looking to drive everything from 16-ohm IEMs to the HE-6 (tell him he's dreaming ... !), its good to play Devils Advocate once again.
   
  Watching Jude's video review of the HP-P1, it struck me just how silly that CLAS stack must look to newcomers - I guess it all comes down to whether we are talking 'bedside table' portable or genuinely 'music on the move' - in that case, I'm with the OP all the way - a pair of IEMs into a DAP and leave the amps at home.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Hmm - 7 months on, and time to resurrect this old girl, methinks. As we get more and more kiddies in the 'Portable Amps' section* looking to drive everything from 16-ohm IEMs to the HE-6 *(tell him he's dreaming ... !), its good to play Devils Advocate once again.
> 
> Watching Jude's video review of the HP-P1, it struck me just how silly that CLAS stack must look to newcomers - I guess it all comes down to whether we are talking 'bedside table' portable or genuinely 'music on the move' - in that case, I'm with the OP all the way - a pair of IEMs into a DAP and leave the amps at home.


 


  You might want to check out the new O2 amp in the DIY section.  *It will drive everything you mentioned.*  Measures incredibly well and costs very little.  Runs on batteries or AC.
   
  If you can't DIY, there are builders who will do it for you.


----------



## estreeter

All power to nwavguy if he has actually pulled this off - I think he was banned from HF a few months back, but he certainly isn't short of an opinion. $150 to have someone build it for you sounds very tempting - will read the full review tonite.


----------



## Anaxilus

I don't believe it is an ideal solution for the HE6 from what I read.  His premise of the drive everything portable amp has narrowed somewhat.  One reason for the existence of the desktop version.


----------



## Willakan

All I have seen on the matter suggests that whilst the most inefficient orthodynamics are at the edge of its driving capabilities, when not listening at very high volumes/using ReplayGain or similar even the HE-6 is feasible - more efficient orthos like the LCD2s shouldn't present any problem at all with their higher sensitivities.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> I don't believe it is an ideal solution for the HE6 from what I read.  His premise of the drive everything portable amp has narrowed somewhat.  One reason for the existence of the desktop version.


 

 yeah, probably not ideal for HE6, but it should drive it.  Are you getting one?


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> yeah, probably not ideal for HE6, but it should drive it.  Are you getting one?


 

 Yup.
   
  Drive it as in produce noise.  Sure.  ;P  I've heard the HE6 from the Lyr, WA5, Audio GD stuff.  There is question as to whether they were at their best on that gear.  I didn't like it on any of those very much.  The O2 is doubtful to meet or exceed those conditions if i had to guess.


----------



## LFF

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Yup.
> 
> Drive it as in produce noise.  Sure.  ;P  I've heard the HE6 from the Lyr, WA5, Audio GD stuff.  There is question as to whether they were at their best on that gear.  I didn't like it on any of those very much.  The O2 is doubtful to meet or exceed those conditions if i had to guess.


 


  I also doubt the O2 can power some HE-6's adequately. I am sure it would do great with some HE-500's but not with the power hungry HE-6.


----------



## keanex

I keep my cell phone in my front left, wallet in my front right pocket. I have no room to fit anything other than an iPod without looking absolutely silly.


----------



## a:xus

Why don't people just get nice closed easily driven headphones?
I use my nexus s (wolfson dac chip) and a pair of mdr-z1000's. Yeah it sounds marginally better out of my squeezebox touch and A1 amp. But I wouldn't be able to discern the difference riding the train or even outside with the distractions and sounds found out there.
Everybody is different, but people should really be weary of how much of this is marketing/self expression/emotional decisions and how much is about sound quality.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





a:xus said:


> Why don't people just get nice closed easily driven headphones?


 

 I have been making the same argument for a couple of years now, but we still get people wading in here wanting to drive the biggest cans from the smallest amps - its perverse, but I guess thats Head-Fi.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





keanex said:


> I keep my cell phone in my front left, wallet in my front right pocket. I have no room to fit anything other than an iPod without looking absolutely silly.


 


  Too late !   :neener:


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





donnyhifi said:


> Luminette,
> 
> You're rig is abit chunky for a portable but atleast its not as bad as this:


 

  

 Hey!
   
  That is a nice bag for Edition 8... any1 knows the brand of it?
   
  EDIT: Found it, DT1350 case


----------



## qusp

thats not a rig, thats 2 rigs setup strapped together to comparisons


----------



## estreeter

qusp is, of course, correct, but Jude's comparison between the HP-P1+DAP strapped together vs the CLAS stack illustrated how crazy either rig would be for genuinely portable use. I want something I can throw in a backpack and set up in a hotel room, but for the airport etc nothing beats the simplicity of DAP -> IEMs.  NWavGuy claims the current iPhone/Touch have output impedances under 2 ohms - if thats the case, and the sound is on par with my Nano, you have a mini-entertainment centre in your shirt pocket.
   
  We seem to delight in making life harder than it needs to be.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> We seem to delight in making life harder than it needs to be.


 

 We also seem to oversimplify complexities.


----------



## estreeter

Hardly - the last man to do that was Einstein. Oh, and Oppenheimer - its all been hacks since then.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Hardly - the last man to do that was Einstein. Oh, and Oppenheimer - its all been hacks since then.


 

 Those were ones to do it right.  I attached no claim of validity to my statement.


----------



## Minh3184

I love my home setup, but the idea of also having a portable rig which I can take with me on holiday and stuff sounds boss! At the moment I have a Naim CD5i > GS Solo Ultra Linear > HD650 setup, and my question is... Does anyone know how the iPod Classic > CLAS > RSA SR-71B > LCD2 combo would do as far as sound quality is concerned? What can I expect? It's an awful lot of money, well for me anyway, so I'm expecting a lot.


----------



## calipilot227

I own a PA2V2, Headroom Total Bithead, and a Fiio LOD, but I rarely carry them around in my pocket with me for out-and-around usage. My "portable" (more like "pocket") rig usually consists of my iPhone and my Ety HF2s. That's it. No amp, just the player and my 'phones. It sounds good enough for when I'm walking to class.


----------



## koolkat

Isn't the primary function of an amp to provide extra juice to power your headphones?
  Why are people putting the "sound sig" of the amp into the equation that determines
  whether an amp is good or bad?
   
  I think the OP said the >Lisa III is the only amp that sounds good<... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Does an amp that can sufficiently power a pair of headphones, while "sounding good"
  make that amp a really good amp? 
   
  So an amp that can power the headphone efficiently, but has a transparent sound sig
  would be a bad amplifier... ? Maybe I'm overanalysing things.


----------



## barleyguy

Quote: 





koolkat said:


> Isn't the primary function of an amp to provide extra juice to power your headphones?


 
   
  Not necessarily.  Up until recently all I had were IEMs and Grados, none of which needs an amp.  But I had 4 different headphone amps anyway, because they improve the sound and in certain cases the detail level.
   
  Now if you have headphones that NEED an amp, such as Orthos or HD800's, then the primary reason is extra juice.  But otherwise, no, not really.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





barleyguy said:


> Not necessarily.  Up until recently all I had were IEMs and Grados, none of which needs an amp.  But I had 4 different headphone amps anyway, because they improve the sound and in certain cases the detail level.
> 
> Now if you have headphones that NEED an amp, such as Orthos or HD800's, then the primary reason is extra juice.  But otherwise, no, not really.


 

 The reason you hear more detail is the extra juice but I get what you're trying to say.


----------



## shinystuffbuyer

Quote: 





> I love my home setup, but the idea of also having a portable rig which I can take with me on holiday and stuff sounds boss! At the moment I have a Naim CD5i > GS Solo Ultra Linear > HD650 setup, and my question is... Does anyone know how the iPod Classic > CLAS > RSA SR-71B > LCD2 combo would do as far as sound quality is concerned? What can I expect? It's an awful lot of money, well for me anyway, so I'm expecting a lot.


 
  I love it. It is certainly expensive and is not for everyone. But within the limitations of today's technology, this is probably the best you will get.


----------



## Jalo

If you put a Dac between CLAS and SR71b, you'll love it more.


----------



## Hero Kid

Quote: 





jalo said:


> If you put a Dac between CLAS and SR71b, you'll love it more.


 

 Err the CLAS is a DAC?


----------



## ExpatinJapan

ha ha, does anyone read the first OP post on page 1 anymore?


----------



## Achmedisdead

Quote: 





expatinjapan said:


> ha ha, does anyone read the first OP post on page 1 anymore?


 


  I read it sometime in 2010, and it was a fine post to read.


----------



## Jalo

hero kid said:


> Err the CLAS is a DAC?




The CLAS has a build in Wolkson Dac, but in order to have full balance into the sr71b, you need to put a balance Dac like the db1/2 between the CLAS and the amp to do that.


----------



## Eagle_Driver

This thread reminds me of how futile my attempts at hi-fi - both portable and home - have been. For example, I got a pair of the now-discontinued Audio-Technica ATH-ES7 headphones when so many people had raved about them. But to my ears they sounded overly colored and somewhat incoherent, especially in the mids. In fact, I ended up preferring some (but not all) of the Sony MDR-VCRAP series headphones to the ATH-ES7.
   
  And my attempts at home hi-fi weren't much better: All of the surfaces at home are hard vinyl-tiled floor and plaster-like wallboard - a recipe for excessive resonances (ringing in the highs) and boominess. Nothing short of covering everything with thick, astronomically expensive carpeting would have fixed my home's particular acoustics problems.


----------



## koolkat

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> The reason you hear more detail is the extra juice but I get what you're trying to say.


 

 I've never understood this.
   
  Let's say you have a very powerful portable amp, a decent portable media player, and a very efficient headphone. The portable player can power your headphones just fine, and the powerful portable amp is just overkill. You set the portable media player to 70% volume and then in another set-up you add the amplifier into the equation (via line out). Volume match the two set-ups. In the first set-up, the portable player should be delivering just as much juice/current/voltage as the dedicated amplifier is in the second set-up, yes?
   
  So then the sonic differences between the two set-ups should be attributed to the sound characteristics of the amplifiers, not the "extra juice" the dedicated amp supposedly delivers.


----------



## estreeter

Quote:  





> And my attempts at home hi-fi weren't much better: All of the surfaces at home are hard vinyl-tiled floor and plaster-like wallboard - a recipe for excessive resonances (ringing in the highs) and boominess. Nothing short of covering everything with thick, astronomically expensive carpeting would have fixed my home's particular acoustics problems.


 
   
  And that brings you straight back to headphones - I think you gave up way too quickly.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





expatinjapan said:


> ha ha, does anyone read the first OP post on page 1 anymore?


 

 I read it everytime I feel the urge to re-open this thread - partly to determine if the gear has improved sufficiently to make portable hi-fi more viable, and partly because I still agree with the OP that DAP+IEMs is hard to beat in a genuinely portable environment.


----------



## 12345142

I think that with all these balanced portable amps, Fostex HP-P1/Algorhythm Solo, JH-3A and such, portable head-fi has a bit more meaning to it now. It's a lot harder to pick up sonic differences on the go, though. If you have a quiet place to relax after your journey where you can listen to music - for example, a hotel room after a train ride - then the (relative) convenience of portable gear starts to make a bit more sense.


----------



## Anaxilus

Obviously, my post has nothing to do w/ those who feel X quality of sound is 'good enough' for on the go.  It's for those interested in absolutes.
  Quote: 





koolkat said:


> The portable player can power your headphones just fine, and the powerful portable amp is just overkill.


 

 Lots of vagueries in your post.  Decent, fine, etc.  In your opinion based on an unnamed phone and unnamed player just looking at listed specs you've got it all figured out yeah?  Let's do it this way.
   
  Clip+ measures beautifully.  People say a DAC is a DAC so it should reproduce everything that can be reproduced compared to a $2000+ DAC.  Listen to it w/ some 'efficient' phones volume matched versus another source and/or transparent amp and most likely you will hear more detail, resolution and better driver performance like punch, transient speed, imaging, etc assuming your phones can produce it.  Where's the discrepancy if not the amp section and the measurements are solid on both devices.  If I have a B2/DBA-02, ES5 or even better, M50, all of which many consider 'efficient' how would you explain them sounding better on one device versus the other if both sources basically measure extremely well by Head-fi/RMAA 'know everything' standards?  You explain it w/ power and current, that's how.  Deductive logic that is repeatable.  We are not talking driver coloration, we are talking driver performance.  There is a gross misrepresentation about what is *sufficient *for loudness versus what is *ideal *for performance applied to all sorts of different phones, amps and sources around here.  If one cannot discern unequal sonic quality from within equal gain then this is the wrong forum to be in.  Some people don't hear differences because they try one or two products and post how they have it all figured out now, it's all the same, it's all hype and highway robbery.  They don't realize they have a likely bottleneck or methodological error.  Can't tell a difference between $100 X and $300 Y phones?  What's your source?  $25 Clip+.  Shocker.  All DACs and amps sound the same to you on your HD650?  How about investing in a bit more resolution from your headphones then.  
   
  Yes, people hear stuff that isn't there.  People also don't hear stuff that is there.  Any combination of folks also don't know wth they are talking about and haven't put in the work to justify the claims they make.
   
  Final analysis.  *Loud SPL does not equal maximized driver performance*.  By the logic you seem to be implying, a driver could never perform better from an amp at lower spl than anything else unamped driving it at a higher spl.  This should obviously be false.  Is it possible to gain no improvement when your driver is powered maximally?  Yes, that's a fact.  Is it possible that many phones people believe are 'efficient' are not being driven to their full potential?  IME, yes, more often then not.  For example, take an ATH-M50 (38 ohms/99 dB) and plug it into a Clip+ and then compare it using a neutral portable or desktop amp also.  See if that sounds identical to you volume matched.


----------



## rawrster

I think Anaxilus knows my stance on this topic but I'm part of the group that thinks my phone paired with my customs is good enough. I'm sure something like a HM601 paired with a killer portable amp to my customs would be better and actually I consider the HM601 the best portable dap I've personally heard. I do hear the difference between that and say a J3 right out of the headphone out but I find my phone and customs to be good enough.
   
  The issue I have with bigger and better setups is that the rigs are very large which usually means I would have to buy some kind of bag to carry my portable rig in during the summers since during the winters I have a hoodie and I can put it in the pouch thing and that is inconvenient for me. Another thing is that would also mean having cables whether lods, mini to minis, etc and since it is portable those cables can catch on something and I find it really annoying when that happens. Lastly is the price for me. It's not a matter of if I can afford it or not but whether I think it is worth it for me. I can spend $50 on a cable, $250 on an amp and $200-300 on a dap but I would much rather use that money towards my headphone setup.
   
  This is not to say that my phone and customs is as good as those better portable rigs however but that is is good enough. Also I agree about the clip+ portion even though I loved my clip+ when I owned it. Compared to my HM601 despite the measurements the clip+ didn't quite measure up but that's not something to be ashamed of. For $40 not much to complain about and if I ever wanted to get a gym/running rig the clip+ would be the first thing I would buy.


----------



## koolkat

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Final analysis.  *Loud SPL does not equal maximized driver performance*.  By the logic you seem to be implying, a driver could never perform better from an amp at lower spl than anything else unamped driving it at a higher spl.  This should obviously be false.  Is it possible to gain no improvement when your driver is powered maximally?  Yes, that's a fact.  Is it possible that many phones people believe are 'efficient' are not being driven to their full potential?  IME, yes, more often then not.  *For example, take an ATH-M50 (38 ohms/99 dB) and plug it into a Clip+ and then compare it using a neutral portable or desktop amp also.  See if that sounds identical to you volume matched*.


 
   
   
  This I can't do. The sources don't even sound identical in the first place, and if I compared them both in a sighted listening test, I'd be partial towards the more expensive desktop amp. I asked Lord Voldemort what he thought and I hope to clarify things.


----------



## 12345142

It's not even about whether something can make your headphones loud. It's the power behind the amp. When I max out my Clip+, I can even get my K702s to a reasonable volume. Too bad there's no bass to speak of and the soundstage is collapsed.
   
  If I switch to my HA-171, though, while the volume pot is going to be much lower to get the same volume, the bass is definitely noticeable and the imaging is more precise and spacious. The differences are too significant to simply attribute to the placebo effect. I know little about audio electronics, but this much is apparent. With more efficient headphones the difference isn't as drastic, but it's still discernible.
   
  Just to get it out of the way, the HA-171 is not a warm or bassy amp. Unlike my Caliente, it's completely neutral and transparent. In fact, the Clip+ sounds warmer overall.
   
  To be honest, I don't know what goes on at an electronic level when you turn the volume knob on an amp or press the volume rocker on a Clip+, but there's definitely a difference.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> I think Anaxilus knows my stance on this topic but I'm part of the group that thinks my phone paired with my customs is good enough.


 

  Yes I sure do.  I still use my Clip+ and B2's (sometimes IERM if I'll be listening longer than in spurts) out and about when I expect there to be potential loss or damage or just want to be light.  I just don't run around saying get this $30 dollar player, it is the absolute end all be all source and amp.  Everything else is just hype, marketing, psychology and consumer ignorance.  People like to throw babies out w/ the bath water around here.  If I travel and will have lots of downtime to be stationary, I brick it up.  Being stuck w/ the Clip+ only on a 14 hour flight would drive me nuts when I know what I'm missing.


----------



## Mutineer

Very interesting post -- glad to see the thread is still alive after so long.
   
  I agree with a lot of what you say but not totally.
   
  My views:
   
  I think there was a time where this amp /headphone/IEM equipment offered a lot of added value ---- think how lousy original I-pod quality was -- add to this the stock buds etc.
   
  However I  think the industry has reached the point of diminishing returns in terms of adding incremental  value ---- that is to say there are fewer incremental improvements in new products offered -- yet pricing and (apparently) margins remain ridiculously high.  Thus there is a lot of hype on new products and fads of month -- because people (especially those prone to loving gadgets anyway) are always interested in the latest and greatest, even if they do not always add any real tangible value.
   
  The fact is  though that this is a very niche market and thus it is not really a rational one but almost cultish in nature. I do not mean this in a negative way -- just that it is driven more by passion, and even sense of community (on head-fi anyway).  So basically its for people who have the money to burn on an expensive but fun hobby.  If viewed logically the $$$ invested (at least on the high end) cannot be thought of as as delivering value in terms  of any "normal" concept of value.  Then again each individual defines "value" for himself -- so if he thinks the newest $600 amp is worth it (I recently did) who are we to judge?
   
  I sort of compare it to DSLR photography and the infatuation with megapixels  where many amateur photographers want to unnecessarily upgrade and  will pay for more expensive cameras due to number of megapixels -- even though there is a point of diminishing return where there is little if any added value except for the small minority that are going to make very large prints.  People  think it will lead them to "perfect photos" -- but the reality is it is the photographer's eye that makes most photos exceptional.
   
  I own very expensive portable audio equipment myself and frankly have no regrets. .In rational terms I probably cannot justify the thousands of dollars spent -- but   I am rarely at home and so really enjoy having super sound quality wherever I am (and yes I think my setup does deliver "super sound".)
   
  However, I have learned (or more accurately am  trying to learn) to resist the hype and trust my ears and try to question myself when tempted to buy the "latest and greatest" -- Just how much is this REALLY going to IMPROVE my listening enjoyment? The answer considering the price is for me almost always "not enough".


----------



## eugenius

With all the recent developments in IEM's, head-fi is sillier than portable hi-fi. That's why home cinema and IEM's are mainstream and head-fi and hifi are fringe phenomenons. 

What is silly is paying 4200 euro for a SR-009 and especially the 5000 euro for an electrostatic amp is mega-silly, You could spend half that on speakers and amps and have better music.


----------



## Canadian411

I kind of agree with OP, when I first purchased portable amp (SR71b) I was not impressed at all, and still not impressed.
   
  The sound improvement by investing $650 on SR71b, $200 on ALO LOD cable, $350 on balanced ALO cable not worth it at all.
  I don't live in US so shipping, duties + taxes just on upgrading the accessories is a price of an UltraEdition 8. (Yes I was sillier than silly )
   
  Should have invested in another headphone instead of going with portable hifi.
   
  You are better off investing on non portable gadgets such as tube amps, dac, nice source etc.
  To get the most out of your portable rig, you need to listen in the quiet environment, that doesn't really work out in my case.
   
  Just wanted to share guys, happy hi-fing.....


----------



## koolkat

Quote: 





12345142 said:


> It's not even about whether something can make your headphones loud. It's the power behind the amp. When I max out my Clip+, I can even get my K702s to a reasonable volume. Too bad there's no bass to speak of and the soundstage is collapsed.
> 
> If I switch to my HA-171, though, while the volume pot is going to be much lower to get the same volume, the bass is definitely noticeable and the imaging is more precise and spacious. The differences are too significant to simply attribute to the placebo effect. I know little about audio electronics, but this much is apparent. With more efficient headphones the difference isn't as drastic, but it's still discernible.
> 
> ...


 
   
  What I'm saying is, do you really need a dedicated amp to deliver more juice when your Clip+ can power your low impedance high sens cans without any clipping? Isn't that the whole point of amping? To provide enough power (voltage/current) to the headphones. I'm not talking about difficult to drive cans. Is the "added soundstage, bass, detail, etc" a result of the extra juice, or is it a result of the colouration of the amp?  A scientific answer would be much better than a "I think this is better than this other one because I'm hearing so and so", imo.   
   
  I still haven't gotten a reply from nwav. And the comment I made on his blog still hasn't appeared, so either he's holding it back or he doesn't want it displayed.


----------



## MayaTlab

I'm also going to drop from portable head-fi.
  The reason mostly practical : I commute everyday in the smelly, dirty and overcrowded Parisian subway and there's just no point bothering with portable amps in this competitive environment.
   
  But on the other hand I still hear quite easily differences with portable amps and I'll still use my TTVJ at home as some sort of "all duty" transportable amp, with a bigger full size but low impedance pair of HP.
   
  So to me it's mostly down to practicality, less so about money spent on portable gear vs home gear and the resulting SQ difference.


----------



## Mutineer

I cannot say I disagree with you although I have  no experience with such desktop investments --- but that kind of money for a desktop amp does strike me as a bit over the top.
   
  Even with IEMs I question whether there is really a lot of tangible value in upgrading after a certain point. I am no fanboy by any means but I question how much value I would be getting in Giving up my Westone 3s for the newest "latest and greatest" IEM. In my market there are no trade-ins and opportunities to sell off second hand equipment are rather limited ---- so your previous  "big investment" in sound quality often winds up in a drawer someplace when you are buying the "latest and greatest".  Upgradeitis can wind up being a big waste of money sometimes.
   
  A lot of people swear by custom IEMs and I admit I have never tried -- but the prices usually seem ridiculous and although I am sure there is some kind of improvement, I wonder how much it would REALLY  be over my Westone 3.


----------



## rawrster

Quote: 





koolkat said:


> What I'm saying is, do you really need a dedicated amp to deliver more juice when your Clip+ can power your low impedance high sens cans without any clipping? Isn't that the whole point of amping? To provide enough power (voltage/current) to the headphones. I'm not talking about difficult to drive cans. Is the "added soundstage, bass, detail, etc" a result of the extra juice, or is it a result of the colouration of the amp?  A scientific answer would be much better than a "I think this is better than this other one because I'm hearing so and so", imo.
> 
> I still haven't gotten a reply from nwav. And the comment I made on his blog still hasn't appeared, so either he's holding it back or he doesn't want it displayed.


 

 I had a clip+ and the Audio Technica M50 which has a low impedance and high sensitivity but it sounded much better with an amp in between then without and with the clip+ it got plenty loud. The same can be said for the Fischer Audio FA-003 and the Audio Technica AD700.


----------



## 12345142

The difference between precise and sloppy bass and other aspects of a headphone's technical performance isn't coloration. It's a result of headphones receiving the power they need. There are headphones that sound okay out of a typical DAP, like the W1000Xs, which get plenty loud, but the extra current delivered by an amp really makes them shine.
   
  Maybe you should try an amp and see for yourself.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





eugenius said:


> What is silly is paying 4200 euro for a SR-009 and especially the 5000 euro for an electrostatic amp is mega-silly, You could spend half that on speakers and amps and have better music.


 

 I really, really want to see you put that to the test. *IF*, as Jude says, the SR-009 is the 'best headphone ever made', its still a massive bargain next to other high-end components. No question that a good speaker rig sounds fantastic - I have heard 30K+ systems in a dedicated hi-fi store - but if you equate that Stax rig to its equivalent in the speaker world, I can *guarantee* you that you wont be spending 'half that' .......... check out some of the asking prices at Audiogon, and thats pre-loved gear at considerable markdown on the price they paid for it.
   
  At the end of the spectrum occupied by exotica like the Stax flagship, many enthusiasts would be spending 10K+ just trying to get their room *ready* for their speaker rig. Give these guys a call and ask them what they charge to install speakers that need a winch just to get them off the truck:
   
  http://lenwallisaudio.com/
   
  Take a look at their gallery and try to guess what sort of money some of these folks have thrown at audio (and A/V).


----------



## creamsoda

speaking of that website... check out their headphone section...
   
  http://lenwallisaudio.com/products/accessories/headphones
   
  is charging $140 for portapros NORMAL for australians?!?!  i got my pair for 35 CAD (basically the same exchange rate as AUD)!!!


----------



## estreeter

We do get reamed for headphones - always have - but this isnt someone who specialises in selling headphones. The big problem is the distributorships in Oz - the Senn distributor is particularly nasty and they make sure that people like Amazon cant legally ship headphones to individuals in Oz.


----------



## koolkat

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> I had a clip+ and the Audio Technica M50 which has a low impedance and high sensitivity but it sounded much better with an amp in between then without and with the clip+ it got plenty loud. The same can be said for the Fischer Audio FA-003 and the Audio Technica AD700.


 

 Hey rawster, this was what Lord Voldemort had to say
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> @Jon, I'm not sure what the "Loud SPL" statement is supposed to mean, but the "more juice" argument is false if neither amp clips AND both have a suitably low output impedance. I suspect that perception is from using say a portable with a 10 ohm output impedance and a desktop amp at 0.5 ohms. In that case the desktop amp might have an advantage with some headphones that might wrongly be attributed to "more juice".
> 
> From what I've seen the reverse is at least as likely. There are lots of desktop amps with output impedance that violates the Z/8 guideline. And, because it's more efficient (and helps battery life), there are lots of portables with very low output impedance.
> 
> Of course other things can affect the sound quality like frequency response, distortion, etc. But assuming all those measure sufficiently well, it will nearly always come down to output impedance if neither amp clips. And if the output impedance of both is under Z/8, they should sound very similar.


----------



## Anaxilus

Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!



WRT Audio Torquemada,
   
  Yeah, pretty worthless and non topical commentary as expected.  Clip+ was clearly stated, it doesn't have 10 ohms out.  'Loud SPL' or gain matching are foreign concepts to him too.  Hooray.  
   
  So 2 amps gain matched that don't clip present the same amount of detail in the same way despite one being the Clip+ and the other a well measuring desktop source and amp.  Sure thing.  Believe what you like.  Please don't bring up that person or post his stuff anymore, just annoyingly myopic as always.  I wonder why anyone would need the O2 then?  There are plenty of DAP's that can drive higher impedance phones to listenable levels w/o clipping.
  Sorry if I offended anyone's God.


----------



## estreeter

Pistols at 20 paces, gentleman, or something sharper at a considerably shorter distance ?


----------



## eugenius

estreeter said:


> I really, really want to see you put that to the test. *IF*, as Jude says, the SR-009 is the 'best headphone ever made', its still a massive bargain next to other high-end components. No question that a good speaker rig sounds fantastic - I have heard 30K+ systems in a dedicated hi-fi store - but if you equate that Stax rig to its equivalent in the speaker world, I can *guarantee* you that you wont be spending 'half that' .......... check out some of the asking prices at Audiogon, and thats pre-loved gear at considerable markdown on the price they paid for it.
> 
> At the end of the spectrum occupied by exotica like the Stax flagship, many enthusiasts would be spending 10K+ just trying to get their room *ready* for their speaker rig. Give these guys a call and ask them what they charge to install speakers that need a winch just to get them off the truck:
> 
> ...





You can get a Sanders Model 10 electrostatic system with matching amp for the price of a SR-009 and amp:

http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/products

I know what I would choose.


----------



## 12345142

So, your Clip+ can power your low impedance high sens cans without any clipping. But there's plenty other factors involved...

...like, you know, power? Or maybe the way the amp is engineered? There's a reason amps have actual PCBs inside, unlike the little chips inside a typical DAP. 

'lovetolisten', I would consider expressing several short posts in one longer one because quite frankly, it's a waste of space and it's annoying.


----------



## Vonx

Its alllllll the truth.


----------



## kmhaynes

After trying a number of players, IEMs/earphones, and mostly portable amps (see sig line below for modest list), I am going for simplicity with the following:  Cowon J3 -> Etymotic ER-4P.  While these 2 probably aren't the absolute best of their category, they are probably near to top of most peoples' lists.


----------



## Lumify

I wish I had seen this thread six months ago, before I went through two portable amps that I weren't satisfied with. I wish I could perma-bump this thread.


----------



## estreeter

lumify said:


> I wish I had seen this thread six months ago, before I went through two portable amps that I weren't satisfied with. I wish I could perma-bump this thread.




If you go back through the thread, I'm confident that you will see posts from around that time - I guess you were simply unlucky - but from my own experience, when you have the money and you are caught up in the 'mania', its very hard to be talked out of a purchase. I am currently looking long and hard at the HM-602, so that's not an observation from someone who has attained 'enlightenment' ..... I just spend a lot more time and effort trying to cut through the hype before I put my hard-earned money down. Having said that, I spent a couple of hours last night thoroughly enjoying my transportable rig from my laptop after enduring precisely one tune from the headphone out - its not all hot air and wasted cash.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I just spend a lot more time and effort trying to cut through the hype before I put my hard-earned money down. Having said that, I spent a couple of hours last night thoroughly enjoying my transportable rig from my laptop after enduring precisely one tune from the headphone out - its not all hot air and wasted cash.


 

 x2


----------



## ExpatinJapan

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> ....................... - its not all hot air and wasted cash.


 

 x3


----------



## rawrster

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> If you go back through the thread, I'm confident that you will see posts from around that time - I guess you were simply unlucky - but from my own experience, when you have the money and you are caught up in the 'mania', its very hard to be talked out of a purchase. I am currently looking long and hard at the HM-602, so that's not an observation from someone who has attained 'enlightenment' ..... I just spend a lot more time and effort trying to cut through the hype before I put my hard-earned money down. Having said that, I spent a couple of hours last night thoroughly enjoying my transportable rig from my laptop after enduring precisely one tune from the headphone out - its not all hot air and wasted cash.


 

 Sometimes it is hard to sort through what is hype and what is not but luckily for me I have found a couple members who have opinions that I trust who also say how it is and have experience with a much wider range of gear to give me a better opinion on things.
   
  As for the HM602 if it is anything like the HM601 then that will mean some great listening sessions ahead. It has a slightly warm sound with a bit softer highs iirc (it has been a long time since I heard one) but as far as daps go it stands alone on my list. That does not mean it is perfect however. The firmware is not as good as an apple, cowon, (or any other consumer dap). The battery life is not the best at around 10 hours, it is bulky (thicker than the 1st generation ipods) and it does get slightly warm after it "warms" up however resolution wise it is the best I have heard. I used it with customs and i didn't feel the need to add anything additional to it. I may be in the stance of my phone and customs as being good enough but the HM601 and customs brings it closer to my headphone rig at home.


----------



## Astrozombie

Well isn't this funny, before i arrived here all i had was a pair HD280s and a Fuze. Hundreds of dollars later i am happier, but i'm sure the limit is really close by for portability. A pair of HD-25, a phone with large capacity and i will consider myself "done" for portable.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





astrozombie said:


> Well isn't this funny, before i arrived here all i had was a pair HD280s and a Fuze. Hundreds of dollars later i am happier, but i'm sure the limit is really close by for portability. A pair of HD-25, a phone with large capacity and i will consider myself "done" for portable.


 

 Which limit?


----------



## Huxley

I have a few rigs, and if im really honest i always run back to my sansa clip, cheap simple bulletproof and sounds great.

I do agree with the op, however doesn't help me lusting after a usb dac/amp at some point.


----------



## jc9394

I think I'm in the same boat as OP now, I still have my Pico Slim which I love when I travel and at work but most of the time I just use my iPhone and JH13.


----------



## estreeter

I draw a line between 'portable' and 'transportable' - simply because a gizmo runs from USB or even batteries doesnt make it 'portable', IMO.


----------



## wdahm519

I don't even see how people can walk around and listen to "hi-fi" music anyways.  The thudding from my walking around basically kills and hi-fi enjoyment.  I need to be sitting down to really hear how its meant to be heard.


----------



## swbf2cheater

This just recently happened to me...amen brotha


----------



## Achmedisdead

wdahm519 said:


> I don't even see how people can walk around and listen to "hi-fi" music anyways.  *The thudding from my walking around basically kills and hi-fi enjoyment*.  I need to be sitting down to really hear how its meant to be heard.




That's one of the many reasons I don't use IEM's.


----------



## Anaxilus

Not all IEMs have noticeable occlusion effects.  I have a few universals that I get nothing from.  It's really tip and fit dependent.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





wdahm519 said:


> *I don't even see how people can walk around and listen to "hi-fi" music anyways. * The thudding from my walking around basically kills and hi-fi enjoyment.  I need to be sitting down to really hear how its meant to be heard.


 
   
  +1


----------



## keanex

I agree with that sentiment above me completely. Listening to my IEMs while walking, driving or even in a slightly noisy environment takes a lot away compared to sitting in a quiet room.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





keanex said:


> I agree with that sentiment above me completely. Listening to my IEMs while walking, driving or even in a slightly noisy environment takes a lot away compared to sitting in a quiet room.


 


  No argument, but having spent many hours on my back in various hotel rooms (er, hang on...), I can assure you that you do appreciate the opportunity to relax and listen to something decent when the opportunity presents itself. Nothing quite like being able to balance your entire rig on your chest and still see the TV - try that with the Asgard or, better yet, the Phoenix !


----------



## koonhua90

I have come to the realization that there is only so much you can do on portable audio. After I got my custom earphones, I realized at this point I could only get more variety in terms of sound signature, but not significant improvements in terms of sound and comfort.
   
  Portable hi-fi is fine, but when I am at home, I feel the need to have some nice headphones.

 And that's why my next purchase in about 2 weeks' time will be a full size headphone, then another one or two weeks it will be the amp for the headphone...


----------



## rawrster

Quote: 





koonhua90 said:


> I have come to the realization that there is only so much you can do on portable audio. After I got my custom earphones, I realized at this point I could only get more variety in terms of sound signature, but not significant improvements in terms of sound and comfort.
> 
> Portable hi-fi is fine, but when I am at home, I feel the need to have some nice headphones.And that's why my next purchase in about 2 weeks' time will be a full size headphone, then another one or two weeks it will be the amp for the headphone...


 

  
  oohhh you are entering a slippery slope there  I think portable is the lesser of two evils as it's easier to get good sound with just  an earphone and a dap or phone compared to full size where it has a dac, amp and then the full sized  However I do agree with you and I do enjoy my full sized headphones quite a bit esp when I am at home.


----------



## koonhua90

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> oohhh you are entering a slippery slope there  I think portable is the lesser of two evils as it's easier to get good sound with just  an earphone and a dap or phone compared to full size where it has a dac, amp and then the full sized  However I do agree with you and I do enjoy my full sized headphones quite a bit esp when I am at home.


 

 Indeed, luckily I have a Nikon 105mm DC f/2 lens (which I don't use much now) that I can sell for about 800 to cover the cost of the headphone (most likely LCD-2). As for the DAC+amp, I am considering the DACmini which according to a lot of people, is a great DAC and amp.

 Some time ago I was using the Senn HD series headphone that belongs to my friend, and for me wearing earphones just do not match the comfort of wearing a full size headphone. Plus, most of the time when I am in the house I use my desktop anyway.


----------



## Anaxilus

Hmmm, the only rig I prefer (depending) to my UERM/ES5 + UHA6S is an HD800 + Balancing Act + PS Audio PWD.  You do the math.


----------



## rawrster

If budget is concerned then yes portable is much better in terms of total cost to performance when counting amps, sources, etc. A portable setup is much cheaper to get a high performance with just a portable dac/amp while with headphones you need a good source, amp to go along with the phones and that could bring you to 1500 easily before even considering the headphone while 1500 may be the total cost of the rig or less when you have a high level custom and then a portable dac/amp. 
   
  I do prefer investing in a headphone rig now than a portable since I'm quite satisfied there and I don't spend as much time as I used to in a portable setting. It's cut down to around an hour a day max if even that and a few hours in a headphone rig so it's an easy choice there.


----------



## Hawaiiancerveza

I do agree also.  Thats why I just use a simple portable IEM with my 2gb sanza...usually to the weight room.  The more expansive stuff is strictly for home use.  Why take all the expensive stuff to walk around with?  Hard to really enjoy the detail in music when walking around and having to watch out that a car or someone doesn't run into you because of adoring the sound of the set-up.  It just doesn't make much sense to me.  
  
  Quote: 





keanex said:


> I agree with that sentiment above me completely. Listening to my IEMs while walking, driving or even in a slightly noisy environment takes a lot away compared to sitting in a quiet room.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> If budget is concerned then yes portable is much better in terms of total cost to performance when counting amps, sources, etc. A portable setup is much cheaper to get a high performance with just a portable dac/amp while with headphones you need a good source, amp to go along with the phones and that could bring you to 1500 easily before even considering the headphone while 1500 may be the total cost of the rig or less when you have a high level custom and then a portable dac/amp.
> 
> I do prefer investing in a headphone rig now than a portable since I'm quite satisfied there and I don't spend as much time as I used to in a portable setting. It's cut down to around an hour a day max if even that and a few hours in a headphone rig so it's an easy choice there.


 

 Sigh. *Your argument only holds true if you find the 'right' combination of portable gear straight up*. I've made this point before - there is a finite limit to the number of desktop DACs/amps and fullsize headphones most of us are prepared to buy and house, but its very easy to consign old portable kit to a drawer or storage box and _forget about it_. Financially, you can also tell yourself it was 'only' $300 - how many of us could do this with a thousand dollars (plus exotic tube combinations) worth of tube amp ? A pair of LCD-2s or HiFiMan planars ?
   
  Lets face it - hanging around Head-Fi simply isnt the best way to save money. Most of us could get off the roundabout for well under 3K if we really wanted to, and that would buy a very nice combination. With portable kit, its very easy to spend ~$300 multiple times, until you realise you just went past that 3K marker. Fiio have made it cheaper, but they have also increased the amount of 'thrash' in portable gear : seems like they release something new every week. 
   
  I'm not tarring everyone here with the same brush - some buy an amp like the Move/2Move/3Move and stick with it for years, but many of the regulars here have huge inventories of kit. Obviously, I dont have a problem with that, but I think its Cyclopean to claim that 'portable is cheaper'. Its only cheaper when you take your inner fat kid out of that candy shop.


----------



## markkr

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Its only cheaper when you take your inner fat kid out of that candy shop.


 

 Awesome! but my inner fat kid, is now to fat to get through the exit door of the candy shop...
   
  I'm on a spree of selling EVERY piece of kit that I own, I had NO idea there was so much until I put all of it into a single pile on my bed. I've sold about half so far, but its been quite liberating.


----------



## estreeter

Been there, done that. As long as you continue to visit this site, you'll be back in that shop. Only death or bankruptcy can save addicts like us.


----------



## Anaxilus

I certainly have inventory but only about 15-20% what it used to be.  FS thread is useful and works for both portable and desktop.


----------



## markkr

yeah, I know... this is my 3rd time around, and I just ordered a new silver Pico DAC and Pico Amp (separates) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, never had one always wanted one... cash in PayPal couldn't resist.


----------



## rawrster

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Sigh. *Your argument only holds true if you find the 'right' combination of portable gear straight up*. I've made this point before - there is a finite limit to the number of desktop DACs/amps and fullsize headphones most of us are prepared to buy and house, but its very easy to consign old portable kit to a drawer or storage box and _forget about it_. Financially, you can also tell yourself it was 'only' $300 - how many of us could do this with a thousand dollars (plus exotic tube combinations) worth of tube amp ? A pair of LCD-2s or HiFiMan planars ?
> 
> Lets face it - hanging around Head-Fi simply isnt the best way to save money. Most of us could get off the roundabout for well under 3K if we really wanted to, and that would buy a very nice combination. With portable kit, its very easy to spend ~$300 multiple times, until you realise you just went past that 3K marker. Fiio have made it cheaper, but they have also increased the amount of 'thrash' in portable gear : seems like they release something new every week.
> 
> I'm not tarring everyone here with the same brush - some buy an amp like the Move/2Move/3Move and stick with it for years, but many of the regulars here have huge inventories of kit. Obviously, I dont have a problem with that, but I think its Cyclopean to claim that 'portable is cheaper'. Its only cheaper when you take your inner fat kid out of that candy shop.


 

 Well that's what the FS forums are for  I can usually sell items I've bought used for a similar price and not lose out too much other than shipping. I've easily spent more money on my full sized rig than portable even when considering loss in shipping, buying and selling, paypal fees, etc. Not everyone keeps every piece of gear they buy although I do know some on head-fi who do but most do not.
   
  In my case it certainly is cheaper and by a good amount. I current have one custom and my phone. My headphone rig consists of two dacs, two amps, and 4 headphones  The combination of any one phone and my main rig easily exceeds the cost of my portable rig by a fairly large amount. Although in portable there are so many phones that cost over 1k with almost all of them being customs while in full sized there are many different headphones. However the thought of buying and selling in the full sized game does not appeal to me so this is why there are meets where you can try different types of headphones in your own rig to get an idea of things.


----------



## estreeter

OK - lets take a hypothetical desktop rig:
   
*Desktop computer -> Anedio D1 -> DT880*
   
  You can change the D1 with any DAC/amp combination you want for around $1200, or change the phones to something around the K701 price range, or change both - what I'm getting at is that this level of performance will cost well under 2K USD in most parts of the world, and not much more if you have to buy the computer or upgrade your soundcard etc.
   
  Now consider:
   
_*iPod->CLAS->SR71B->balanced custom IEMs*_
   
  If you can get out of that for less than the cost of the desktop rig (!), more power to you, but both are what I would consider 'end game' rigs - the desktop rig might not be the pinnacle in terms of what is available, but most here could cobble together something very nice for 2K. I have no idea how comparable they are in terms of SQ, but I suspect there are swings and roundabouts in there somewhere. Both rigs give you a certain amount of versatility - you can change amps and headphones - but that just adds to the cost.
   
  As I said, the problem isn't the gear - its the man in the mirror. Its natural, at least on Head-Fi, to want to hear the latest-and-sexiest new kit, but I still don't know anyone with 20 pairs of speakers and 5 home amps to drive them - I'm sure people like that are out there, but they must really enjoy adding extensions to their homes just to house their gear.
   
  (Selling gear is great until you start to miss the very thing you've sold - really want my DT440s back. Now.)


----------



## Jalo

First of all, the SR71a is not a balance amp and one cannot use balance custom iem on it.  May be you mean the SR71b.  Second, the whole point about portable hifi is exactly that, portable hifi. When I am 38000 feet up in the air, it really doesn't matter how good my desktop sound, it has no use for my except what I can take with me.


----------



## Anaxilus

Laptop/PC>UHA6S>ES5/UERM is about $1200 altogether (sans PC) full retail.  Better than most desktop rigs I've heard without naming names.  
   
  Laptop/PC>PWD+Bridge>BA>HD800 is about $8500 considering the breaks and options.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





jalo said:


> First of all, the SR71a is not a balance amp and one cannot use balance custom iem on it.  May be you mean the SR71b.  Second, the whole point about portable hifi is exactly that, portable hifi. When I am 38000 feet up in the air, it really doesn't matter how good my desktop sound, it has no use for my except what I can take with me.


 


  1. Fixed the typo - thanks for the correction.
  2. Right around now, I'm kinda wishing you WERE 38,000 feet up in the air.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Laptop/PC>UHA6S>ES5/UERM is about $1200 altogether (sans PC) full retail.  Better than most desktop rigs I've heard without naming names.
> 
> Laptop/PC>PWD+Bridge>BA>HD800 is about $8500 considering the breaks and options.


 


  And, of course, these two are directly comparable in terms of sonics, right ?? Perhaps you DO need to start 'naming names'.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> And, of course, these two are directly comparable in terms of sonics, right ?? Perhaps you DO need to start 'naming names'.


 
   
  Put it this way, the headphone rig dialed in is the best system I've heard as a whole.  Waiting to hear the 009 w/ the BHSE or Electra so jury's out still for me.  The other systems and combinations I've heard would not make me stop listening to my portable/transportable rig.  Too bad about the Fiio X3 falling thru, really put a snag in my plans.
   
  I've dropped a few dimes around here and there.


----------



## estreeter

Man, you've got more money than Jesus. Or at least you DID have more money ....


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Man, you've got more money than Jesus. Or at least you DID have more money ....


 

 Well the headphone rig belongs to Jesus, err....purrin.  I live vicariously through his holy spirit and worship at his temple often.   I'm still waiting for my headphone amp (Super 7) which is going through some final beta testing.  It's at a sweeter spot in the price/performance curve and offers more synergistic capabilities for the HD800.


----------



## rawrster

I was wondering if that rig was yours or not but I was guessing no. The Super 7 amp does seem nice and a tube amp sounds like something you would get  There is something wrong when the price of that amp is the sweet spot


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> There is something wrong when the price of that amp is the sweet spot


 

 Sadly true.  I'd be happy to pay $50 for one but I know a single transformer in it costs almost double that and there's three of them so things start adding up.


----------



## estreeter

Troops, As some of you will know, I like to resurrect this old chestnut every few months to revisit the issue of whether we are throwing too much money at portable kit. Given that we will soon have people spending somewhere in the region of 3K (again ..) on the *Rx Mk3+LCD-3*, I think its still relevant. Granted, such a rig is unlikely to ever leave a bedside table, but if that's the case, why buy a portable amp ? Those with even deeper pockets can add the JH3-A to their portable arsenal - both strike me as being light years ahead of the OPs old rig, but it still comes down to the VFM question. 
   
  If I had the cash I'd buy both of the above in a heartbeat. And a Violectric V200. And the Anedio. And a 68 Chevelle.


----------



## Achmedisdead

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Troops, As some of you will know, I like to resurrect this old chestnut every few months to revisit the issue of whether we are throwing too much money at portable kit. Given that we will soon have people spending somewhere in the region of 3K (again ..) on the *Rx Mk3+LCD-3*, I think its still relevant. Granted, such a rig is unlikely to ever leave a bedside table, but if that's the case, why buy a portable amp ? Those with even deeper pockets can add the JH3-A to their portable arsenal - both strike me as being light years ahead of the OPs old rig, but it still comes down to the VFM question.
> 
> If I had the cash I'd buy both of the above in a heartbeat. And a Violectric V200. And the Anedio. And a 68 Chevelle.


 


  I'm right there with you as far as the Chevelle.


----------



## estreeter

Great - then we agree on something.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I meant the add 'HM-801 w/balanced amp module' to the list of portable kit that *might* be considered overkill by some. Add that to the trunk of my fully restored *396 SS Chevelle*, would you ?


----------



## Achmedisdead

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Great - then we agree on something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 My dad told me that he test-drove one of them back then.....and he couldn't shift it without the tires chirping. Sure sounds fun to me!
  As far as the HM-801, I certainly would consider an $800 device overkill for portable use.


----------



## estreeter

Is it just me, or is there some highly-desirable portable amplification sitting in the FS forum without buyers ? Granted, asking $600 for an amp that sells for $650 new might be a stretch, but at the beginning of the year the Aussie selling the L3 would have been killed in the rush. Not sure if its the economy or what, but those goodies dont seem to be moving as quickly as they once did.


----------



## skree

have i missed the point here?
   
  Nokia 101 music phone $30 + $9 rubber cover + screen protector
  Sennheiser MX-880 - $40
  Generic 3xAA Emergency charger $4
  3x GP Recyko AA, 2x GP Recyko AAA $8
  FIIO E3 $7
  DIY crossfeed/bypass/mic adaptor currently being built, approx. $12
   
  already got the first four, and a dollar's worth of converse changepurse to store the batteries in, working on a neoprene sleeve for the amp and adaptor i'm currently building... If they improve my amount of sound without negatively affecting the quality i'll be stoked and leave it there, my rig is already the best i've had by far in 25 years of portable audio.
   
  Don't know if i'd spend the $1000s you guys have even if i had it which i dont


----------



## dorino

The portable amp scene has changed a lot since this thread was started. Nowadays, portable amps are really just budget amps. They offer an improvement in sound that can't be beat for the price - And that's that.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





dorino said:


> The portable amp scene has changed a lot since this thread was started. Nowadays, portable amps are really just budget amps. They offer an improvement in sound that can't be beat for the price - And that's that.


 

 I suspect that you may have missed one of the key points in this thread - that the benefits of portable amps are vastly overstated. As for 'cant be beat for the price', I assume you are talking about sub-$200 amps from Fiio and iBasso ? Sure, you wont find much in that price range in terms of a fullsize amp, but spend another hundred or so and you have some very capable fullsize amps to choose from. Ultimately, its horses for courses, but I dont look at my EHP-02 and think 'Wow - I really saved serious money on one of those thousand dollar desktop amps ...'.


----------



## MicroNik

Meh.. i stopped with headphone and stuff before I got too far into it. Its obviously too expensive and I dont have enough money for 2 large boxes connected to my ipod, plus large headphones. It is kinda rediculous...carrying around all that stuff for good portable sound.
   
  It gets to a point where you no longer listen to the music. You concentrate only on the physical sound rather than what it means.
   
  While I do own M50's and a E6 with a LOD connected to my iPod, I realized how insane some people get over audio quality. Much of it is in your head I think. I once saw a post where a guy was asking what surge protector gave the best sound quality with his amp connected to it.


----------



## estreeter

Surge protector ? Hah - total amateur. I've read accounts of Brit audiophiles/phools having their entire house rewired because they werent happy with the quality of the supply. Still, if John Travolta can have a runway and hangar built right next to his house, I guess its relatively small bikkies.
   
  I think you know you are in trouble when you find yourself lying awake at night wondering about the oxygen content in your new $500 interconnects .....


----------



## Achmedisdead

There is a point where one is listening to the gear and such, and not simply enjoying the music.....thankfully, I am not there because I couldn't afford to be...lol.


----------



## estreeter

Its a hobby, and I get that - some people like to buy new gear just for the novelty of it, but proclaiming each new portable amp as a 'world beater' (ha !) gets old when you've been here a few years.


----------



## higgsbison

The FOTM scene here is already old and i've only been a member a month. 

That is a great first post. Unfortunately i wasted many hours reading to come to the same conclusion - both about portable and home systems. Diminshing returns hit faster in this game then most. There is also some seriously good cans around that improve very little with external sources and amps and whatever else you may throw at them. A nice glass of red is a far better way to spend your money than these other components and will likely have you enjoying the music a great deal more.


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## lilkoolaidman

I use an E6 with my R07s because they sound relatively thin and lifeless out of my iPods HO and the iPods built-in EQ is garbage, so, I just use the blue-light EQ on the E6 in conjunction with my R07s and it sounds great. The only portable higher-end amp that I liked was the Pico slim, but I would have to have $300 lying around with absolutely nothing better to spend it on. The Fostex HP-P1 is neat, but way too huge to be considered portable for me, and too pricy not to spend that money on a desktop amp and/or DAC. If the E6 didn't have built-in EQ, I probably wouldn't bother with it either.


----------



## estreeter

Its all good. Anything that gets young kids off Monster's crack has to be considered a win.


----------



## dorino

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I suspect that you may have missed one of the key points in this thread - that the benefits of portable amps are vastly overstated. As for 'cant be beat for the price', I assume you are talking about sub-$200 amps from Fiio and iBasso ? Sure, you wont find much in that price range in terms of a fullsize amp, but spend another hundred or so and you have some very capable fullsize amps to choose from. Ultimately, its horses for courses, but I dont look at my EHP-02 and think 'Wow - I really saved serious money on one of those thousand dollar desktop amps ...'.


 


  I think you're right. Sorry.


----------



## Currawong

It's interesting how things have changed. We now have the CLAS and HP-P1. With the latter and a pair of portable "DJ" headphones from one or another brand I think the results are very good and quite good value. No need for expensive LODs or cables.


----------



## estreeter

One thing that hasn't changed is Triad Audio and their fervent desire to sell a battery-powered amp that struggles to fit anyone's description of 'portable':
   
  http://www.headfonia.com/the-amp-that-makes-me-feel-so-powerful-triad-audio-l3/
   
  Looking at those photos, I'm not entirely convinced that it's any smaller than my EHP-02 : longer, sure, but definitely not as wide nor, I suspect, as high.


----------



## Currawong

I bought a wooden-box one second-hand. I carry a bag of some sort whenever I go somewhere, so size isn't an issue. Regardless, I didn't intend it as a portable in the sense that my iPhone is (for which I'll just use IEMs).
   
  Going back to Luminette's original post though, his rig was:
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> An iMod with an External v-cap dock (higher grade than the ALO portable v-cap) powered by either iQube or SR-71A, with a pair of APS V3 recabled Ultrasone Edition 9s (or HD600s for testing). The LOD(Line-out Dock) and mini-to-mini are a 22g jena / silver configuration.


 
   
  I did once try ED9s as (trans)portable headphones and I reckon nowadays for the price they were new, you could get a whole rig, headphones and all, that is better. Much of that is the elimination of the fancy (and arguably unnecessary) LODs and cables.
   
  I'd be curious to compare something like his original rig with, say, the Foxtex HP-P1 and Beyer DT-1350s, both of which work fairly well together.  Much of the madness was pre-JH Audio and the custom IEM rage too.


----------



## Grev

It's not that silly, I have ipods and a CLAS plus a few cheap portable amps just to satisfy my tastes and several easy to drive headphones, all good!  And I can also use my CLAS for my speaker setups.


----------



## estreeter

It's a shame the OP wasn't here to see the arrival of the DX100 or the incredible number of high-end IEMs now on offer. I wonder if it would have changed his mind - possibly not. I guess you could argue that there have been even more changes on the desktop.


----------



## Austin Morrow

I too feel as if though portable Hi-Fi is silly. Get a good pair of customs (JH13's or even universal IEM's like a pair of W4's), add a small amp, and an good source like an iPhone or iPod with a good LOD and you're set. Heck, most universals sound great out of an iPhone (my GR10's). Now, when it comes to "transportable" Hi-Fi, I do not think that is silly. If I were to bring my HD650's or a pair of LCD-2's I think that a small amp wouldn't be very useful. I've used the iPod + CLAS + Continental combo and it sounded absolutely fantastic when compared to everything else.


----------



## upstateguy

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> >snip>
> 
> Now, when it comes to *"transportable"* Hi-Fi, I do not think that is silly.
> 
> <snip>


 
   
  +1    for anything that fits into my computer case.....


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





upstateguy said:


> +1    for anything that fits into my computer case.....


 


  Exactly. You need something if you're going somewhere to stay. On the bus, not so much.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





austin morrow said:


> I too feel as if though portable Hi-Fi is silly. *Get a good pair of customs (JH13's or even universal IEM's like a pair of W4's), add a small amp, and an good source like an iPhone or iPod with a good LOD and you're set*. Heck, most universals sound great out of an iPhone (my GR10's). Now, when it comes to "transportable" Hi-Fi, I do not think that is silly. If I were to bring my HD650's or a pair of LCD-2's I think that a small amp wouldn't be very useful. I've used the iPod + CLAS + Continental combo and it sounded absolutely fantastic when compared to everything else.


 

 As soon as you added the amp, you just built yourself a portable hifi rig. By adding a LOD and an amp, you are only a step away from buying something like the CLAS. Welcome to portable hifi - you've just spent ~3K. 
   
  As for any iDevice being 'great' from the headphone out, I think you might need to acquaint yourself with more recent developments. There are DAPs out there now that obliterate the iPhone for sound quality. I agree that its better than the sound out of most phones, but thats hardly a tough baseline. I'd take the Clip over any iDevice I've heard, and my T51 over the Clip - horses for courses.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> As soon as you added the amp, you just built yourself a portable hifi rig. By adding a LOD and an amp, you are only a step away from buying something like the CLAS. Welcome to portable hifi - you've just spent ~3K.
> 
> As for any iDevice being 'great' from the headphone out, I think you might need to acquaint yourself with more recent developments. *There are DAPs out there now that obliterate the iPhone for sound quality. I agree that its better than the sound out of most phones*, but thats hardly a tough baseline. I'd take the Clip over any iDevice I've heard, and my T51 over the Clip - horses for courses.


 


  I know this, I've used a lot that "obliterate" the iPhone. My point is that you really don't need (unless you really want to) Hi-Fi sound when going portable (as in riding the bus or walking outside, all you need is a good pair of IEM's). That's all subject top debate though, just adding my two IMHO cents.


----------



## rawrster

You can always just have a dap and a custom  
   
  I'm quite happy with my JH5 and itouch 3G. I know it gets better as I used to have better but if I want to get better I'll get something like a UERM or JH13 and I just don't want to spend that kind of money on portable anymore.


----------



## Austin Morrow

Quote: 





rawrster said:


> You can always just have a dap and a custom
> 
> I'm quite happy with my JH5 and itouch 3G. I know it gets better as I used to have better but if I want to get better I'll get something like a UERM or JH13 and I just don't want to spend that kind of money on portable anymore.


 


  Exactly, all the people I've talked to say that the performance for portable HiFi isn't worth it when it comes to the performance/price ratio. When it comes to transportable HiFi, now that is different.


----------



## rawrster

I don't like the big amps, daps, lod cables, etc with portable. I got tired of it so ended up with just my phone and JH5 but to save some battery on my crappy phone a itouch and JH5. The battery is long enough that I don't care even if I bring my laptop or netbook with me out the house since I don't care about usb dac/amps anymore either.
   
  However there is value for those with the rigs such as an imod, amps, and all that good stuff. It may sound amazing but at this point I'd rather spend my money on my headphone rig at home or at least I'm trying to spend my money


----------



## estreeter

I raised a suggestion about 12 months ago that we need a new section titled 'Transportable Audio' and received the response that 'All Head-Fi is transportable !'. I'd like to see that wiseguy carry a fully maxxed out Woo amp from his living room to his bedside table each night ....
   
  FWIW, I'm in the camp that uses IEMs straight from a DAP anywhere outside the house. I will use my uHA-4 DAC/amp from my laptop for movies at the airport etc, but thats it. I dont own the DX100, but I have every intention of buying its successor in the belief that iBasso know how to improve on a winning formula - the P4 was much better than the amps which went before it.


----------



## AVU

For my money, the new iphone 4s has exceptional sound quality, but more over, it's smaller than anything else out there.  Why?  Because I have to have it with me at all times anyway, so even something 1/2 the size of the clip would be a lot more bulk. 
   
  I own the pico slim amp for my JH13s, because it's the best amp I've heard for them, desktop OR portable, and I own the JH13s because they sound better than any closed cans I've heard AND they have the added benefit of being easily portable. 
   
  But I agree with the point here, because often, despite having the pico slim, I don't even want to use it outside.  Why?  Not because it doesn't sound better.  Just because the amount better that it does sound is easily dwarfed by the sounds and feelings of the outside world.  When you're walking, your feet are going to be making a massive kinesthetic impact on your hearing, not to mention cars, other pedestrians, screaming kids, and so forth.  Finally, even the tiny Pico Slim and the smallest LOD already adds a lot of added bulk.  My iphone fits precisely in my pocket.  Connected to a pico slim, it does not. the cable of the LOD can always get caught on things, whereas the cable running to the JH13s does not.  
   
  Maybe if I was going outside to some incredibly quiet place (is there one in NYC?) to listen to music, it might make sense, but for me, grabbing the Jh13s (since I already carry the iphone) is the utmost in simplicity, and for that, often takes the prize over an incremental boost in SQ.


----------



## estreeter

There are a few IEMs where the isolation is good enough to drown out traffic, but that carries its own level of danger. Even the dreaded iBud, cranked up loud enough, is being blamed for accidents between bike-riders/pedestrians and vehicles. Its just not worth being permanently injured to be able to listen to Motley Crue while riding to work .......


----------



## Pudu

I do own the DX100, but I still think portable hi-fi is silly. Any return you gain by spending silly amounts of money is wiped out for free in 90% of portable environments.

I think transportable hi-fi is brilliant, but thinking you can walk around town, sit on a bus - even an airplane is a bit silly - and enjoy the full quality that spending thousands brings ... well it simply doesn't work for me.


----------



## upstateguy

I agree with the last few posters.  In portable environments I go straight from my Fuze to ear buds.  Ambient noise drowns out any reason to use anything more.....


----------



## keanex

I'm happy with my iPod Classic and whatever decent set of IEMs I decide to use that day from my rather large stable. I don't feel I'm able to put enough concentration into music when I'm on the go for $1,000+ set-ups to sound massively different, also I don't like to carry use expensive stuff like that in public.


----------



## AVU

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> There are a few IEMs where the isolation is good enough to drown out traffic, but that carries its own level of danger. Even the dreaded iBud, cranked up loud enough, is being blamed for accidents between bike-riders/pedestrians and vehicles. Its just not worth being permanently injured to be able to listen to Motley Crue while riding to work .......


 


  Exactly.   I can crank it up loud enough, but that has it's own problems.  
   
  But actually, kinesthetic issues are annoying as well, and no level of isolation or volume can counteract them.  When I walk, your foot hitting the ground is not only going to slightly dislodge or at least contort the iem in your ear, but it's something you "hear" with your whole body.  Similarly, on the subway, the vibration of the train is so substantial that it will deafen any puny "bass" response headphones are capable of.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





avu said:


> For my money, the new iphone 4s has exceptional sound quality, but more over, it's smaller than anything else out there.  Why?  Because I have to have it with me at all times anyway, so even something 1/2 the size of the clip would be a lot more bulk.
> 
> I own the pico slim amp for my JH13s, because it's the best amp I've heard for them, desktop OR portable, and I own the JH13s because they sound better than any closed cans I've heard AND they have the added benefit of being easily portable.
> 
> ...


 


  Totally agreed, I have the same setup as you and only use the Pico Slim at the office and just iPhone and JH13 when I travel.


----------



## shigzeo

While I have a lot of great gear, the rig I use most often is an iPod nano 7G or an iPod shuffle 1G and whatever earphones/headphones I have. I love that system. Small, great-sounding.


----------



## McMaz

Great post OP. The "Rainbow chaser syndrome." Figured that out years ago when building my home setup. Ended up getting an awesome set of speakers that have their own asp and each driver gets its own amplified channel from an amp instead of one signal coming from an amp to a crossover. They also have their own matched subs which can be switched in or out at 50 HZ. My search ended at that point and I haven't looked for any home equipment since as I am still happy and blown away still by these things. Funny thing is when I ventured into portable I ended up going the same route with the JH-16 and 3A combo. Should receive it in a few weeks but if it is close to what I have at home my journey will end their as well. The pic is of my home setup a few years ago setup in an empty room after moving into my current home. It had been packed away for a few months and I just had to have a listen. I think that was the first thing I unpacked. Linkwitz Lab Orions with matching Thor subs. The cabs are custom made of birch and mahogany with over 200 dowels in each piece. No screws.


----------



## RingingEars

Quote: 





mcmaz said:


> Great post OP. The "Rainbow chaser syndrome." Figured that out years ago when building my home setup. Ended up getting an awesome set of speakers that have their own asp and each driver gets its own amplified channel from an amp instead of one signal coming from an amp to a crossover. They also have their own matched subs which can be switched in or out at 50 HZ. My search ended at that point and I haven't looked for any home equipment since as I am still happy and blown away still by these things. Funny thing is when I ventured into portable I ended up going the same route with the JH-16 and 3A combo. Should receive it in a few weeks but if it is close to what I have at home my journey will end their as well. The pic is of my home setup a few years ago setup in an empty room after moving into my current home. It had been packed away for a few months and I just had to have a listen. I think that was the first thing I unpacked. Linkwitz Lab Orions with matching Thor subs. The cabs are custom made of birch and mahogany with over 200 dowels in each piece. No screws.


 
   
  Damn. I thought I had a nice home stereo. Good work...


----------



## DNZGamer

I never noticed this with IEMs though. Maybe I will now because I will be constantly thinking of this post every time I take a step while plugged in...
   
  And yeah, I agree that major isolation seems dangerous. My IEMs really, REALLY isolate. I had people right behind me screaming for my attention and I could not hear them. I haven't been close to any accidents yet but it just makes me really nervous out on the streets with them that I always take them out whenever I have to cross anywhere with even a bit of traffic.
   
  Aside from that though, the super isolating IEMs are great on subways, buses, public places or gyms and makes amps feasible. I think the OP is exaggerating a TINY bit but I totally get how he is frustrated given certain circumstances and certain non-isolating gear. Also, that portable rig is huge and looks pretty overkill! My rig is IEM>Headstage Arrow (super thin) or Fiio E6 (really tiny) > Nano taped to it. The total size of my amp + nano is probably smaller than the iPod classic. I think if you are gonna buy a portable rig, you have to purchase according to practicality and convenience and it certainly doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. IEMs are totally the way to go as well if you don't want outside noise drowning out your details.
  Quote: 





avu said:


> Exactly.   I can crank it up loud enough, but that has it's own problems.
> 
> But actually, kinesthetic issues are annoying as well, and no level of isolation or volume can counteract them.  When I walk, your foot hitting the ground is not only going to slightly dislodge or at least contort the iem in your ear, but it's something you "hear" with your whole body.  Similarly, on the subway, the vibration of the train is so substantial that it will deafen any puny "bass" response headphones are capable of.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





dnzgamer said:


> I never noticed this with IEMs though. Maybe I will now because I will be constantly thinking of this post every time I take a step while plugged in...
> 
> And yeah, I agree that major isolation seems dangerous. *My IEMs really, REALLY isolate. I had people right behind me screaming for my attention and I could not hear them.* I haven't been close to any accidents yet but it just makes me really nervous out on the streets with them that I always take them out whenever I have to cross anywhere with even a bit of traffic.
> 
> Aside from that though, the super isolating IEMs are great on subways, buses, public places or gyms and makes amps feasible. I think the OP is exaggerating a TINY bit but I totally get how he is frustrated given certain circumstances and certain non-isolating gear. Also, that portable rig is huge and looks pretty overkill! My rig is IEM>Headstage Arrow (super thin) or Fiio E6 (really tiny) > Nano taped to it. The total size of my amp + nano is probably smaller than the iPod classic. I think if you are gonna buy a portable rig, you have to purchase according to practicality and convenience and it certainly doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. IEMs are totally the way to go as well if you don't want outside noise drowning out your details.


 
   
  My coworker and manager know this well already, they wave in from of me if they see me with my IEM on.


----------



## DNZGamer

Quote: 





jc9394 said:


> My coworker and manager know this well already, they wave in from of me if they see me with my IEM on.


 
   
  Surprised your manager even lets you do that  If I could not here my boss, the phone or other people, could get in a lot of trouble.


----------



## Vicks7

I agree with some of the earlier threads in that "to each their own". To the extent that anyone wants to leave portable hifi because it is too silly then be my guest. I for one think it is a valuable pursuit. I am currently stuck on an extended business trip and I am currently listening to my UM Miracles with Clas Solo and Pico Slim and iPod classic and it is great to have this quality of sound in a "portable rig" or "transportable rig". It means I can have a high quality sound that will tide me over until I can once again listen to my two channel rig at home.


----------



## IceClass

Quote: 





vicks7 said:


> I agree with some of the earlier threads in that "to each their own". To the extent that anyone wants to leave portable hifi because it is too silly then be my guest. I for one think it is a valuable pursuit. I am currently stuck on an extended business trip and I am currently listening to my UM Miracles with Clas Solo and Pico Slim and iPod classic and it is great to have this quality of sound in a "portable rig" or "transportable rig". It means I can have a high quality sound that will tide me over until I can once again listen to my two channel rig at home.


 
   
  That pretty much sums up my feelings nicely.
   
  I still remember putting on my first cassette walkman in 1980 and being blown away. As a music loving kid that travelled a lot good portable audio is a godsend.
  I've been through, cassettes and cd walkmans then iPods. I still re ember upgrading my sony walkman headphones to Koss port pros when they came out.
   
  Not long ago I was snowmobiling through deep snow in sun blasted High Arctic fjords while listening to Chopin's nocturnes in high quality audio; an experience I treasure and no doubt will remember for a long time to come.
  I'm not done looking for better sound and a better way to consume it. The journey is half the fun and I'm enjoying myself considerably.


----------



## jc9394

Quote: 





dnzgamer said:


> Surprised your manager even lets you do that  If I could not here my boss, the phone or other people, could get in a lot of trouble.


 
   
  they all knew me well that i do not pick up the phone at all in the office unless i know the caller.


----------



## nc8000

vicks7 said:


> I agree with some of the earlier threads in that "to each their own". To the extent that anyone wants to leave portable hifi because it is too silly then be my guest. I for one think it is a valuable pursuit. I am currently stuck on an extended business trip and I am currently listening to my UM Miracles with Clas Solo and Pico Slim and iPod classic and it is great to have this quality of sound in a "portable rig" or "transportable rig". It means I can have a high quality sound that will tide me over until I can once again listen to my two channel rig at home.




Totally agree. I travel around 100 nights a year and have for near 20 years so having a great portable rig is essential for me


----------



## hyogen

iceclass said:


> vicks7 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with some of the earlier threads in that "to each their own". To the extent that anyone wants to leave portable hifi because it is too silly then be my guest. I for one think it is a valuable pursuit. I am currently stuck on an extended business trip and I am currently listening to my UM Miracles with Clas Solo and Pico Slim and iPod classic and it is great to have this quality of sound in a "portable rig" or "transportable rig". It means I can have a high quality sound that will tide me over until I can once again listen to my two channel rig at home.
> ...




I think the thread title is silly and sounds hilariously pretentious. I only read the title--just too silly to read further... Just reading some comments for fun. I agree with IceClass. I enjoy walking on campus and/or snowboarding where there's tons of ambient noise. Ill just use the best i can and enjoy all the more. I'm sure I haven't heard the best of the best in audio, but that's fine with me...guess I'm just silly like that or not hifi enough.

EDIT: Haha, looks like I read the book by its cover..just read the original post and it makes a lot of sense in many ways. I've come upon some of these conclusions myself and have come to love my $25 purchase of my second hand hfi-550 the most pretty much, after starting off trying to find the most balanced headphones in my price range I'd say DT880....and the most neutral DAP (debatable)..iPod 5.5 gen, but found that I love a warmer coloured sound more. 

Anyway, I guess I'm among the scores of newbie headfiers who've invaded this board. I think the OP is choosing to live in harsh reality when it comes to portable hifi, while I am choosing to live in ignorant non-hifi bliss.


----------



## atty101

Glad I read this post. Thanks to the OP for sharing your insights. Most of what was said needed to be said. You gotta wonder how much is too much. I've fallen in love with a lot of my gear but I can't honestly say the return was worth what I've paid. I'm actually in the process of selling off everything I've acquired, after which I plan on reevaluating my needs. I won't say that I'm out of the game, but I think I'll be keeping it simple this time around. 1 IEM, 1 DAP and maaaaaaaybe 1 amp. Haven't made up my mind about that yet.


----------



## tomllm

The question I've not found answered is whether an ipod w/amp is any worse than say a DX100.  I hate hiss, and use IEMs, so buying an RSA Shadow just to get rid of the ipod's hiss seems well worth it.  The logical upgrade to my Westone 3s would be a pair of customs, which would still benefit from the Shadow.  
   
  I think OP is a little daft; it's a little like arguing that there's no point buying gaming laptops when you can build a great desktop rig for less.  While this is true, I don't have space for a big desktop machine and screen and everything - my gaming laptop (a Clevo P150HM) has been fantastic and all I've really needed.  Yes, it's a little slower and weighs a damn tonne when carrying it around.  But it's a far more practical solution for my needs.
   
  Roll on my JH16s.


----------



## hyogen

tomllm said:


> The question I've not found answered is whether an ipod w/amp is any worse than say a DX100.  I hate hiss, and use IEMs, so buying an RSA Shadow just to get rid of the ipod's hiss seems well worth it.  The logical upgrade to my Westone 3s would be a pair of customs, which would still benefit from the Shadow.
> 
> I think OP is a little daft; it's a little like arguing that there's no point buying gaming laptops when you can build a great desktop rig for less.  While this is true, I don't have space for a big desktop machine and screen and everything - my gaming laptop (a Clevo P150HM) has been fantastic and all I've really needed.  Yes, it's a little slower and weighs a damn tonne when carrying it around.  But it's a far more practical solution for my needs.
> 
> Roll on my JH16s.




Your ipod hisses? Try a sound attenuator..or higher impedance phones. Of an ipod with an wolfson dac... Preferably 5th or 4th generation..


----------



## FieldingMellish

I can understand ambient sound spoiling subtleties as said in prior posts, but how about arriving at your destination? Don't many have work conditions that allow listening on the job?


----------



## upstateguy

Had the occasion to bring some music to a friend's house the other day....
   
  Used an HP netbook, pico dac, O2 amp and '03 880s.... 
   
  Not quite a completely portable rig, but everything ran off batteries.
   
  I'd say this amp is a game changer in the portable-transportable world.
   
  Here's something for y'all to try.... plug a rig like this into the AUX of a receiver and listen to it from some really good speakers.....  see what you think....


----------



## WindowsX

Used to carry Lisa III with some big-shot sources/phones. Now I'm using Marshall Major with Xperia P. Life is so good.


----------



## estreeter

I periodically dig this thread up as fodder for discussion on the relative merits of spending money on transportable kit vs putting the money into a desktop rig, but it rarely lingers for more than a week or so before returning to oblivion, Not sure if some of the more recent additions to this thread realise how much has _changed_ in the 4 years -* that's four years this very month *- since Luminette started the thread. I still think its horses for courses, but having a battery-powered rig for bedside use and auditioning other gear can never be all bad, IMO. End of the day, its only money.
   
  October 2008 was a very different Head-Fi landscape to October 2012, but my money is on April, 2014, assuming we survive December 2012.


----------



## RingingEars

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I periodically dig this thread up as fodder for discussion on the relative merits of spending money on transportable kit vs putting the money into a desktop rig, but it rarely lingers for more than a week or so before returning to oblivion, Not sure if some of the more recent additions to this thread realise how much has _changed_ in the 4 years -* that's four years this very month *- since Luminette started the thread. I still think its horses for courses, but having a battery-powered rig for bedside use and auditioning other gear can never be all bad, IMO. End of the day, its only money.
> 
> October 2008 was a very different Head-Fi landscape to October 2012, but my money is on April, 2014, assuming we survive December 2012.


 

 Funny. I was thinking the same thing when I was scanning this thread a couple days ago.
  When the OP started this thread portable-fi was a different beast.
  I would imagine that the portable add ons ie: amps/DACs are quite a bit more refined than ever before.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> Not sure if some of the more recent additions to this thread realise how much has _changed_ in the 4 years -* that's four years this very month *- since Luminette started the thread.
> 
> October 2008 was a very different Head-Fi landscape to October 2012, but my money is on April, 2014, assuming we survive December 2012.


 
   
  Quote: 





ringingears said:


> I would imagine that the portable add ons ie: amps/DACs are quite a bit more refined than ever before.


 
  Without going into sound science territory, I disagree.
   
  We're not talking about computers or cell phones here. How many meaningful technological improvements do you really think audio equipment endure over their lifetimes?


----------



## nc8000

4 years ago there was no such thing as portable balanced amps or hires players /portable dacs nor anything like the Solo and other external iThing dacs


----------



## PanamaHat

I completely agree with the OP. I had to drop my iphone+Fiio e17 with m-80 rig for the much more functional and portable Sansa Clip-Zip + Senn px100-II. The difference is audible but so negligible when out. Why would I need bulky mid-fi audio on my way to class? Exactly


----------



## micrors4

Obviously the OP hasn't heard my platinum LOD cable, the micro-detail retrieval is phenomenal and it only cost a $1K, well worth the price so I can hear the breathing of the drummer in the background, some people will just never understand.


----------



## grokit

When I discovered that my iModded iPod 5.5G sounded better with my FX700s straight out of the unaltered headphone port than it did out of the modded line out with silver LOD > Headstage Arrow, I knew it was only a matter of time before I sold it (the iMod). The Arrow is still useful for driving full-size headphones but I hardly ever do that with portable gear anymore. Many of the supra-aural headphones like the B&W P5 are as efficient as many of the more efficient IEMs anyways.


----------



## 3X0

micrors4 said:


> Obviously the OP hasn't heard my platinum LOD cable, the micro-detail retrieval is phenomenal and it only cost a $1K, well worth the price so I can hear the breathing of the drummer in the background, some people will just never understand.




I hope that's sarcasm.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> We're not talking about computers or cell phones here. How many meaningful technological improvements do you really think audio equipment endure over their lifetimes?


 
   
  I'd like you to grab your diary and write the following in the entry for today : 'What the hell is up with this *Bruno Putzeys* guy ?'
   
  I hope you and I can have this discussion in another 12-18 months.


----------



## 3X0

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> I hope you and I can have this discussion in another 12-18 months.


 
  That's precisely what I'm saying. The pinnacle has been reached for the past several decades, and the only "stops" on the portable side of things are driving power and output level, either of which are in abundance for the vast majority of loads being driven.
   
  Of course, there's always money to be made in solving problems that don't really exist. Or even solving an inaudible problem while introducing an audible one (e.g. non-oversampling DACs).


----------



## grokit

The latest and the greatest, can be yours for only $1,500.00 (not including iPod)


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





grokit said:


> The latest and the greatest, can be yours for only $1,500.00 (not including iPod)


 
   
  And the fully-balanced Mjolnir / Gungnir combination will set you back almost *2K AUD* in my neck of  the woods - horses for courses. 
   
http://www.addictedtoaudio.com.au/Schiit-Audio-Gungnir-DAC-USB-Schiit-Audio-Mjolnir-Amplifier
   
  As a bedside rig. it may be that  the CLAS/ALO stack makes more sense : what we need is a cashed-up Head-Fier like yourself to buy all of the above and get back to us with a full report !


----------



## BBBS

I agree with him. Most of the portable amps are trash, it's a lot of delicate equipment to carry, and in my case some HD229 do the trick. Besides, any degree of isolation is either dangerous or just plain unsettling, depending on the time and place. I don't really need to walking about in the 2a.m. traffic, completely oblivious to cars and people.



These were something like £12. I use them to replace some Portapro with damaged wiring.


----------



## Lock

Quote: 





seidhepriest said:


> Instead of mocking honest people, do the experiment yourself.
> 
> Get two sets of Audio-Technica ATH-M50. Should set you back something like $340 or more, but hey, you insist on blind denial. That costs.
> 
> ...


 
  I have a pair of sennheiser HD-25-1 ii.  renowned for durability and honest sound reproduction, hence their use in a lot of studios.   I bought some pure copper silver plated cable, kevlar tech flex from a place in NW London, and bough a neutrik plug and also some cardas connectors.  I used silver solder and made up a set of cables.  The cable did make the phones sound a bit better (imo) it's true, and it was well worth the  <£25 I paid.  However, these are not digital cables, which was my point.  I also asked my mate at uni, he is a Masters student in electrical engineering to test the cable.  He measured the signal response (it's all technical so I can't explain all of what he did with the oscilloscope, because I don't understand it myself), what he did say was there was no measurable difference between the new cable and the original steel Sennheiser cable measured between frequencies of 18Hz and 22KHz, I believe he did this test at various levels of current.  He also pointed out there was, although measurable, only negligible difference between these cables and a paper clip under the same test.  I will post a pic of me cable, it does 'look' sweet.
   
  recabling headphones is clearly of benefit imo anyway, buying an HDMI cable for more than £10 that is doing a short run is completely insane, and anyone who says it affects the audio or video 'quality' is completely full of ****.  If the cable doesn't work, or you live under a power sub station and the EM field actually causes the cable to drop data, then MAYBE a shielded cable is in order, but provided the cable is working, it cannot affect picture quality.  fact.   This was why I was sarcastic about people spending loads on DIGITAL cables is all.


----------



## Angular Mo

Once I heard my HRT iStreamer and IBasso Warbler P4 through Beyer DT770-80s, my audio life has never been the same.
  I have now been on a quest to replicate that experience in a more portable manner; something I can carry in a coat pocket.
  So, I bought an E7, E17, basic LOD... not even close to the iStreamer. 
   
  Maybe I ought to just give up on the coat aspect, and power the iStreamer with a TekCharge™ MP1860A
   
It is just that the 24-bit thread appeals to by Gear Acquisition Syndrome...
   
-Mo.


----------



## estreeter

Quote: 





angular mo said:


> Once I heard my HRT iStreamer and IBasso Warbler P4 through Beyer DT770-80s, my audio life has never been the same.


 
   
  The P4 is very underrated here. I spent a few hours listening to music last night (HRT MSII -> EHP-O2 -> AD900) and it wasnt the first time that I've missed the glorious mids on the P4. The O2 might have better measurements - never seen anything to confirm or deny that - but the P4 remains a very special little pocket rocket for remarkably few bucks.


----------



## Angular Mo

Quote: 





estreeter said:


> The P4 is very underrated here. I spent a few hours listening to music last night (HRT MSII -> EHP-O2 -> AD900) and it wasnt the first time that I've missed the glorious mids on the P4. The O2 might have better measurements - never seen anything to confirm or deny that - but the P4 remains a very special little pocket rocket for remarkably few bucks.


 
  estreeter,
  Thank you for the post. I am inexperienced, so another's opinion helps me to appreciate what I hear.
  -Mo.


----------



## Currawong

FYI, discussion of the "seriously modded M50s", headphone, optical and other cables has been split to a new thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/635028/seriously-modded-re-cabled-ath-m50-and-cable-discussion-split-from-leaving-portable-hi-fi-thread


----------



## qusp

portable hifi isnt silly, it just needs the right brand of commitment =) this is home hifi that just happens to be transportable, performance is closer than I would like to my home rig. power to burn, clean as a whistle, 40bit digital volume control (by directly controlling the dac), impedance controlled digital interconnections, transformer coupled spdif inputs, handles up to 32/384kHz (in fact handles DSD with an addition i'm working on), balanced signal path all the way. 

es9018 dac with shunt regulation on analogue stages, 2300mah A123 LiFePO4 batteries giving about 7hrs playback. ridiculously low output impedance (0.05mOhms), around 2.5Wpch in the amp section (total output capability) UPOCC pure silver wiring for everything including power (except main +/- power battery output wires, which are 16awg UPOCC copper, with 14awg silver center tap/ground). a single Zfoil resistor per signal line in the analogue output stages, (just in case  ) capable of ~ -116dB THD+N (actual output, not just quoted from datasheet) the amp section is capable of much better by itself




not small, but smaller than some of the triplestacks i've seen, it was my aim to easily beat the performance of what I was carrying around already, there is no comparison.

completely DIY, not for sale


----------



## nc8000

So that's what the monster looks like. 

I'm slightly less extreme but certainly love this rig for my 100+ annual hotel nights


----------



## qusp

yep, its just a temporary case so wont look like this for long, but i'm pretty much done with the current design. its a mix of very high objective spec (kills ODAC+O2) as well as some audiophile overkill for good measure.

will be auditioning new transports for it in the coming months. will start with the Fiio X3 (so disappointed with the iriver AX100) but have some other ideas of my own


----------



## WiR3D

Quote: 





qusp said:


> portable hifi isnt silly, it just needs the right brand of commitment =) this is home hifi that just happens to be transportable, performance is closer than I would like to my home rig. power to burn, clean as a whistle, 40bit digital volume control (by directly controlling the dac), impedance controlled digital interconnections, transformer coupled spdif inputs, handles up to 32/384kHz (in fact handles DSD with an addition i'm working on), balanced signal path all the way.
> es9018 dac with shunt regulation on analogue stages, 2300mah A123 LiFePO4 batteries giving about 7hrs playback. ridiculously low output impedance (0.05mOhms), around 2.5Wpch in the amp section (total output capability) UPOCC pure silver wiring for everything including power (except main +/- power battery output wires, which are 16awg UPOCC copper, with 14awg silver center tap/ground). a single Zfoil resistor per signal line in the analogue output stages, (just in case
> 
> 
> ...


 
  This isn't the first thing you have created that I have drooled over. I would actually put his on my short list if I could buy this off the shelf or a kit and build it myself if its not too complex and well documented. 
   
  Its a shame I only get to look at the pictures, but well done. It really is a masterpiece.


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## qusp

thanks yeah well maybe look for something in the not too distant future...., but not this exactly. this contains others IP that I dont have the right to sell. Shout outs go to the Twisted Pear Crew for the buffalo II (somewhat modified =P), which is a far more suitable dac for this project than the BIII, opc for 'the wire' bal-bal pcbs, Tom for his help realizing the custom volume control/PSU/IO/Battery monitor PCB (nerve center in other words) and last but not least Chris, the only other person to get one of these, as he helped support this project from back in my conceptual stages, not long now mate if youre reading.


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## WiR3D

Quote: 





qusp said:


> thanks yeah well maybe look for something in the not too distant future...., but not this exactly. this contains others IP that I dont have the right to sell. Shout outs go to the Twisted Pear Crew for the buffalo II (somewhat modified =P), which is a far more suitable dac for this project than the BIII, opc for 'the wire' bal-bal pcbs, Tom for his help realizing the custom volume control/PSU/IO/Battery monitor PCB (nerve center in other words) and last but not least Chris, the only other person to get one of these, as he helped support this project from back in my conceptual stages, not long now mate if youre reading.


 
  I'll keep my eyes out. Ofcourse I am more interested in it purely for desktop use, it is just because of all the things of yours I have read (mainly in the opamp thread) and the way you think and research, and your methodology that I have so much interest. 
   
  a qusp desktop dac/amp. Sounds good to me


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## estreeter

I agree that qusp's rig is 'transportable', but I think its a long way from the rigs most people would envision when the term 'portable hi-fi' is mentioned in a thread title. Just sayin'


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## qusp

its significantly smaller than the particular rig the OP was talking about.... just sayin  in my reading of his first post I dont think he would have had a huge problem had the performance matched the size and outlay. this punches well above its weight.

I know, I used to carry one like that ie. 4 cap vcap OIMP + VCAP teflon dock, lisa III, imod and cables is considerably larger, heavier and more vulnerable. particularly once i've embeded some sort of source or reciever. its also smaller than many transportable devices ive seen you talk of and dare I say higher performance

its the massive long optical cable more than anything that makes it a bit unwieldy at the moment, so i'll have to see about getting a custom one done. the only reason I havent already is i'm not 100% set on what the transport will be, the iriver ihp132CF has awesome battery life and is convenient with the tethered remote, but I have a few ideas up my sleeve as well as planning to try the fiio X3

all the same I will be looking to make it smaller if possible, but not at the expense of performance. as you can see, the battery is a dominating factor, so while I may shrink it somewhat by integrating everything together onto1 or 2 PCBs, while battery life has to stay reasonable it cannot go too small. another bonus is it charges in about 35-40mins. we'll see where battery tech takes us over the next 6 months or so. that will be a dominating factor for development time too, because designs like this have to get safety approval, when you pack a battery capable of nearly a gigawatt there are some checks and measures...$$$$$ hopefully red tape doesnt get in the way


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## WiR3D

^^ @qusp 
   






 weeeeeeeeee
   
   
  sounds exciting
   
  could even use its own thread when it gets to a particular stage - not trying to put pressure on you, but this is entertaining.


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## qusp

nah there wont be a thread, ive seen how that goes with the armchair experts (I know, ive been one of them). if i'm going to make a go of this i'm doing it my way, I dont want to have to explain everything to the peanut gallery and I dont want to give everything away, because there are a couple of novel ideas that I havent seen done or even talk of it. but we should probably keep on topic in here, I just posted the pics to illustrate that 'portable' doesnt have to mean compromise


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## WiR3D

Quote: 





qusp said:


> nah there wont be a thread, ive seen how that goes with the armchair experts (I know, ive been one of them). if i'm going to make a go of this i'm doing it my way, I dont want to have to explain everything to the peanut gallery and I dont want to give everything away, because there are a couple of novel ideas that I havent seen done or even talk of it. but we should probably keep on topic in here, I just posted the pics to illustrate that 'portable' doesnt have to mean compromise


 
  I really respect your decision, I'll just keep my eyes out. 
   
  Not to pack on the pressure, but i expect this to be good, technically and musically.


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## ExpatinJapan

Quote: 





qusp said:


> .......... the armchair experts (I know, ive been one of them).......................


 
  I AM one! Nobody listen to me!


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## BBEG

$200 or so in a space smaller than my car keys for only a little more than your PX-100 plus a new Nano. Ain't havin' portability problems, didn't pay $100+ for the LOD, and genuinely enjoy my lunch breaks more and have fewer "OMG phone slipped out of pocket FFFFUUUU" moments at the gym. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  Even as a newcomer to the Hi-Fi world, I agree with a lot of the original post. I think it's ridiculous to spend $100+ on an LOD. I've seen no evidence to convince me that "cryo" treatments will influence sound. I don't understand why a Ray Samuels portable unit can cost as much as or more than a full-sized desktop amp, nor do I understand why the O2 and ODAC cost so many hundreds less than the products they purportedly compete against while being only marginally bigger than the aforementioned Ray Samuels units. I completely agree that much of what is shown in the portable rigs thread is silly both in terms of cost and real world portability.
   
   
  With that said... for some people, portable DACs/amps are a very affordable entry to* home* Hi-Fi. Excluding the O2+ODAC combo, what's the entry fee for a decent external DAC and/or amp? The answer is a whole *lot *more than an E17, UHA-6S MKII, and similar devices. My E17 is used as an external DAC/amp for my desktop and laptop; I don't feel it was a poorly spent $130 as it's improved my sound experience, has helped me learn about the differences between onboard sound and outsourced sound, and is convenient to bring out and about with my laptop. Granted, my next desktop/laptop step-up will be an O2+ODAC, but that doesn't mean my E17 purchase was poorly chosen. Adding the two together, I'm still significantly less than the cheaper desktop DAC/amps and I have the versatility of a portable device for when my Nano/E6 is charging or if I'm going to be in one place for a while.


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## qusp

realizing why the O2 and ODAC are cheap only takes a few minutes of thought. hint, because their development, design, prototyping, testing and support are not part of the cost because they were given away for free (well I expect the bigger resellers are bearing some of this support, particularly since he who shall not be named seems to have been either assassinated, or gotten bored) 

it was and is based on a false economy and the fact some people now wonder why others dont cost this much; because they dont think it through, has done the industry a disservice. the only people making money out of the O2/(ODAC is a bit different its production was licensed) are the people repackaging them and adding a significant margin, much more margin than your average audio reseller would make and for simply putting things in boxes and dropshipping... it also takes all art out of the equation, with the only variation possible with the borg rigs being a different faceplate...
/rant


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## WiR3D

Quote: 





qusp said:


> realizing why the O2 and ODAC are cheap only takes a few minutes of thought. hint, because their development, design, prototyping, testing and support are not part of the cost because they were given away for free (well I expect the bigger resellers are bearing some of this support, particularly since he who shall not be named seems to have been either assassinated, or gotten bored)
> it was and is based on a false economy and the fact some people now wonder why others dont cost this much; because they dont think it through, has done the industry a disservice. the only people making money out of the O2/(ODAC is a bit different its production was licensed) are the people repackaging them and adding a significant margin, much more margin than your average audio reseller would make and for simply putting things in boxes and dropshipping... it also takes all art out of the equation, with the only variation possible with the borg rigs being a different faceplate...
> /rant


 
  It depends where you fall as a consumer, do you want something cheap that works well or do you want something to admire and enjoy, and that includes aesthetics. 
   
  My father is very much the former - which is why I haveto remind him looks do matter when repairing or making changes in your home. But myself, having fine arts training, am very much the latter, which is probably why I want the TH900 so badly, its as much an artwork as a tool for musical bliss.


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## KT66

just had my commute listening to Maccas wonderful Chaos and Creation wav via my Hm-601 - GS Voyager - T-50p
   
  what a wonderful way to start the day.
   
  I don't feel silly at all


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## 3X0

Honestly, I think there's tremendous amounts of bias involved here.


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## RingingEars

Quote: 





wir3d said:


> It depends where you fall as a consumer, do you want something cheap that works well or do you want something to admire and enjoy, and that includes aesthetics.
> 
> My father is very much the former - which is why I haveto remind him looks do matter when repairing or making changes in your home. But myself, having fine arts training, am very much the latter, which is probably why I want the TH900 so badly, its as much an artwork as a tool for musical bliss.


 

 I'm very much the latter also.
  I try to be Conservative, but always fall back to letting my eyes make the final decision.
  An example would be... I have a Fiio L9 cable. It's a fine cable and sounds great, but I kept eying one of the nicer, more custom looking(and more money), LODs. I bought one and I love it. It's sounds the same as the Fiio to me, but makes me happier because it looks so good. Also, I bought a BTG Audio Sunrise cable for CIEMs. Will it sound different than the stock cable? Doubt it, but it looks so damn nice...
   
  We gravitate towards this site because we love this hobby whether it be for technical reasons or aesthetics and I think most of us, if we had the means, would blow a big chunk of change on a top dog setup. I certainly know I would.
  I am Conservative enough that I wouldn't put myself in the red to get it, but I do covet a nice CLAS/ALO setup with all the trimmings...


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## qusp

3x0 said:


> Honestly, I think there's tremendous amounts of bias involved here.




lol, show me your objective preference meter. common man, youre better than this, have you turned into a drone as well? what does it really matter to you? the poster above enjoys his portable rig, what does he have apart from his subjective bias? what matters more than his subjective response? thats what audio is all about at the 2 cannot be separated



Spoiler: for 3XO technobabble, just in case I was included in the bias comment, but a bit OT



unless I did something really stupid (I cannot measure below my soundcard noise floor) my rig measures better in every way than the O2/ODAC objectively too. the dac and amp separately are superior, not by a small amount, so if you want to play that game ive got it covered.

i'm using the bal-bal 'the wire' for the amp section, its been through the audio precision system 2 and agilent analyzers pretty thoroughly, its part of what I love about it and with far fewer parts than O2. do I need this much DNR, such low THD or stupidly low output impedance? probably not, but you cant play the subjective bias thing with me. in fact i'm using a lower noise psu than that used for the tests, its unlikely to make much/any difference because of the massive PSRR, but again why not? its an overkill rig, i'm perfectly aware of that, but i'm not making any magical claims.

I like to cover both angles, i'm probably more PSU obsessed than is healthy and tweak that area to the max while keeping the analogue sections as simple and high performance as possible, with as few parts as possible to achieve those goals. The Wire fits that ethos rather well and its tiny, so win win.

I decided I would deal with a fair chunk of my battery remaining unused each cycle because I wanted a fully linear dual mono bipolar regulated supply with a real low impedance center tap ground reference, instead of a charge pump or virtual ground. because there is much more power drain on the positive rail it drops much quicker, but there is a sensor/monitor that shuts the whole thing down when the cell with the largest load reaches 3v.

every consumer has its own low noise regulator, the IV and amp stage uses high end ICs and Zfoil resistors; only 1 resistor, 1 opamp and one buffer per phase in the output stage, no caps, digital volume and as little voltage gain as I could get away with. the ES9018 is well known, the clock has 0.5ps RMS close in phase noise and the BII is a 4 layer PCB

the weakest link is my iriver. 

I love the sound, I may have been able to achieve the same musical satisfaction with less, but i'm equally obsessed with paper performance. I like all boxes ticked, now I just need a sexy CNC case.

if something goes on sale, again not this, this was a personal project to stop myself buying everything new that came out, when each was more just different rather than better, but if it does come to pass, I will be charging for my time, costs and some profit, thats how the world works, but its not how some people have been indoctrinated to believe it should work.


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## HamilcarBarca

Quote: 





qusp said:


> realizing why the O2 and ODAC are cheap only takes a few minutes of thought. hint, because their development, design, prototyping, testing and support are not part of the cost because they were given away for free (well I expect the bigger resellers are bearing some of this support, particularly since he who shall not be named seems to have been either assassinated, or gotten bored)
> 
> it was and is based on a false economy and the fact some people now wonder why others dont cost this much; because they dont think it through, has done the industry a disservice. the only people making money out of the O2/(ODAC is a bit different its production was licensed) are the people repackaging them and adding a significant margin, much more margin than your average audio reseller would make and for simply putting things in boxes and dropshipping... it also takes all art out of the equation, with the only variation possible with the borg rigs being a different faceplate...
> /rant


 
   
  That designer set out to produce superior products which could be built at low cost. He did the research, design, and testing. He succeeded in his goals. Any competent corporation could do the same. Why don't they? For many, it reduces their sales if they find it more difficult to justify the high cost of inferior products.
   
  A similar case might be made against companies producing "designer cables." Without any research or design, they cobble together some wire and connectors and add profit amounting to hundreds (or hundreds of thousands) times their actual cost. Does Monoprice do "the industry a disservice?" No, but it does make it more difficult for others to sell overpriced products which have been proven, repeatedly, to produce no audible benefit.
   
  Borg rigs? Borg cables!


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## estreeter

Quote: 





3x0 said:


> Honestly, I think there's tremendous amounts of bias involved here.


 
   
   
  Sir, _please_, I had a rough night - follow me down this alleyway - my friends and I would like a 'chat'   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Seriously, welcome to Head-Fi : *humans* behind all these keyboards and we all have our biases.


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## Soundtrap

Pardon my ignorance, but have you tried any of the Cowon DAPs coupled with Audiotechnica ATH-M50 or ATH-WS55? Before I heard those, I was swearing by Sennheiser PX-100. Now, I think they are way overpriced for the sound they produce. For portable set up I couple Cowon J3 with Audiotechnica ATH-WS55 and there is no need for any portable Amps (not that I ever used any anyway!). Perhaps, you can give it ago. Cowon players are pricey, but the sound they put out is extraordinary.


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## estreeter

I binned my PX100s roughly 2 years ago - massively overrated. Far prefer the Koss cheapies - still one of THE head-fi bargains of the last 30 years.


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## WiR3D

Quote: 





qusp said:


> if something goes on sale, again not this, this was a personal project to stop myself buying everything new that came out, when each was more just different rather than better, but if it does come to pass,* I will be charging for my time, costs and some profit, thats how the world works, but its not how some people have been indoctrinated to believe it should work.*


 
  Agreed, look we all like a bargain. But you have to make a living, and you should be rewarded for your hard work and research, and thats the end of it.


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## BBBS

estreeter said:


> I binned my PX100s roughly 2 years ago - massively overrated. Far prefer the Koss cheapies - still one of THE head-fi bargains of the last 30 years.


Not enough mids. I haven't got PX100s, but I had some Portapro and HD229, and the latter impressed me that much, that I abandoned my £200 IEMs with their £20 sound.

Sound quality over the 70s and 80s must have been taking a nose dive with the adoption of earbuds and ever cheaper walkmen with ****ty bass boost or three band EQs. I still remember the enlightenment of music sounding like music rather than headphones when I got some now ancient and bassless ER6i. The step up to HF2 and ER4 was worthwhile too.

And now proper on-ears, not the 229s or Portapro.


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## zorin

It is four years now since you posted your mini rant [no disrespect intended] against the enthusiasm or obsession for the portable rigs. Would you modify your stance from four years ago regarding the low audio quality of the portable amplifiers ? In the last couple of years there has been an influx of good portable amps into the audiophile world. The quality of audio signal they offer is much improved over what was available four years ago.
  Another thing, you noted in your comment from 2008 on the sonic superiority of the old PCDPs over the portable digital audio players. Four years on there are individuals who still keep using the premium quality vintage portable CD players as the audio source in portable rigs.


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## keepitsimple

Just stumbled across this golden thread-Px 100 straight out of shuffle 1st gen-That will do me


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## keepitsimple

Sorry couldnt resist..............................


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## gr4474

A post I made in another thread:
   
Ok so I'm realizing that "portable" dac's use usb only, and can't be used without a computer. Is that right...and are there any good amp/dac or just dac's that don't need a computer?
   
   
   
  Quote:


waynes world said:


> Do you want a DAP? Ie music player + dac + amp all in one? If so, check out the new Fiio X3, X5 or the ibasso DX50.


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## keepitsimple

^U have lost me slightly.Are you saying consider an all in one player(dap,dac & amp) as opposed to the brick.


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## NinjaKitty

Just wanted to tell you that money spent on a psychologist is not money wasted. Psychology can help treat depression, and don't go on thinking that just because it's in the brain that it isn't a legitimate disease. Mental problems are just chemical imbalances in the brain and are very tangible. Not knowing what makes one unhappy is a real problem.


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## keepitsimple

^Its good to talk my friend.


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## gr4474

keepitsimple said:


> ^U have lost me slightly.Are you saying consider an all in one player(dap,dac & amp) as opposed to the brick.




Exactly!


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## marcus49371

well, there goes another vote to home audio setup....but still wouldn't give up on portable...yet?!


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## gr4474

Quote: 





keepitsimple said:


> ^U have lost me slightly.Are you saying consider an all in one player(dap,dac & amp) as opposed to the brick.


 
   
  Ok so I got my CKS99 IEM headphones, and I was turned on to an EQ app "Accudio" for my iphone 4.  I needed an EQ to boost the bass and this app really sounds good.  You select your IEM or headphones, and it EQ's them for you.  Mine weren't listed, so I chose another AT IEM and boosted the sub bass myself.  No need for me to carry any amp at all, and I can hear calls come in so that's a plus for me.  The only downside is it lags when choosing a song, but once it starts playing it's all good.


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## keepitsimple

^Sounds good.The app thing sounds cool.


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## roman r

I'm sitting here listening to some classical music (a Noctune album) on my J3 ripped from CD in WMA 320mb format. I'm using an E11 with their included LOD into Grado RS1 headphones.
   
  The E11 definatetly adds something worthwile. Sound is a little bigger even though it's currently running at a low volume level.
   
  I don't bother with E11 outdoors as I find it too inconvenient. Just use iphone 4 with Ety ER4-p
   
  Indoors I like the mobility of a portable headphone amp. I use it much more than my Graham Slee Novo and Lexicon RT20 (SACD mainly) although they're situated near my TV so can only make use of them when I want to totally "kick back" and relax.


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## WindowsX

Portable rig is good as long as it's not ridiculously big or expensive. Some people may take portable players too seriously like I used to back then but that could also be one of lesson for life.


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## zorin

windowsx said:


> Portable rig is good as long as it's not ridiculously big or expensive. *Some people may take portable players too seriously *like I used to back then but that could also be one of lesson for life.


 
 Of course one should take portable players and rigs seriously, life is a most valuable and serious phenomenon and enjoying fine things in life is most serious too. Life is so short, why should one waste a minute of it by listening to a substandard audio ? Is there anyone who will have this inscription put on his or her gravestone - 'I wish I had listened to a cheap and bad portable' ?


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## k3oxkjo

zorin said:


> Of course one should take portable players and rigs seriously, life is a most valuable and serious phenomenon and enjoying fine things in life is most serious too. Life is so short, why should one waste a minute of it by listening to a substandard audio ? Is there anyone who will have this inscription put on his or her gravestone - 'I wish I had listened to a cheap and bad portable' ?


 
  
 Yes, I say it often. Life's too short for bad hi-fi...
  
 Portable? Right now I have a Ibasso DX-50 and AKG 3003 playing hi-rez files (one 64Gb Micro SD card and two 128Gb flash drives, fits in a jeans pocket). It sounds pretty darn good, it's cool to walk the city and enjoy this set up.


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## bigbeans

Some excellent points here @Luminette. It's surreal thinking about this in 2022, things have evolved at such a rapid pace and you're right on...the flagship end is a bit bananas. 

Silver lining (amid 10k CIEM Le Jardin), the value one can get with portable hifi is quite good these days. From DIY earbud makers to reviewer collab IEMs, the options are excellent on both ends of the spectrum.


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## Eagle_Driver

estreeter said:


> Quote:
> 
> And that brings you straight back to headphones - I think you gave up way too quickly.


I gave up quickly due to my employment and income situation at the time. I was completely unemployed for almost five years at that time (and would not start employment again for another 20 months), and I would not remain at that place I used to live at for much longer. I moved out of there almost seven years ago, and have since lived with relatives.

Now I am slowly getting back into the headphone hi-fi (or even mid-fi) hobby. With my current iPhone 12, I added an iFi Hip-DAC along with my small but slowly increasing collection of over-ear headphones (both closed- and open-back), and also dabbled in wireless Bluetooth headphones (both over- and in-ear TWS). But while wireless headphones are good enough for daily use (even though most of those have a boosted bass response), there are times when I simply must have wired 'phones. And with all the money that I spent on full-sized wired headphones, I realized that I do not have a very good wired IEM (my currently in possession Shure SE310's do not reproduce upper treble well). I could not locate my old Etymotic ER4S, so I decided to order a cheaper currently available Etymotic model (an ER2SE).

Hopefully, the ER2SE will suit my satisfaction without having to even carry around my Hip-DAC around (but instead using just the Apple dongle with the ER2SE). I will still use the Hip-DAC for larger headphones.


----------

