# Tianyun Zero DAC - New 2009 Edition



## millionmonkeys

I am looking to a buy a DAC/HA and have been looking at either the Zero DAC or the Audio GD Compass. The Audio GD was winning but...there appears to be a new model of the zero DAC coming out in June.

 According to ebay member wsz0304:

  Quote:


 2009 new edition has the following improvements:
 ﹡09 edition has added the auto search and signal lock function.
 ﹡With memory function and can save data automatically after power off.it will return to the lastest situation if no signal is found after power on again.
 ﹡with USB function.
 ﹡With an special independent circuit for D/A converter,the sound effect is greately improved.
 ﹡Readjust and refine the analogy circuit to improve its function.
 ﹡enlarge the height by 30% of all 9 pcs radiating ribs to better give off heat.
 ﹡Improved the power section to eliminate static disturbance.
 ﹡With color option: black and silver 
 

Does anyone know about these 'improvements'? Would they really make much difference (ie make it a real competitor to the Compass)?


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## scootermafia

Any pix out yet? If it's still cheap might be worth it, but the Compass will always be a little nicer. With the compass going up to nearly $400 shipped soon, this would be an alternative for those that don't have $400 to spend - if they've improved their quality control a little.


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## Haoting

The old champion is back in black and with USB input!


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## Rinshin

Hmm... this is very interesting. To the OP who is debating on whether to wait for this Zero or go for the Compass; my suggestion is to go with the Compass, if you were already willing to shell out the cash for it. I own both the Zero (original) and Compass and feel that the compass is much better than the Zero (not just on cost alone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) Without much information on this new Zero its not fair for anyone to say that it will be better or worse than the Compass. As Scooter stated - the Compass may be going up to $400 shipped after May and I don't think you will be disappointed with the performance of the Compass.


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## Pricklely Peete

It doesn't look all that much different....what I'd really like to know is...have they upgraded the poor pcb the Zero is built on...as in gotten away from the razor thin traces they were using in version 1 ?

 Are there any interior shots ?

 Peete.


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## ciphercomplete

I loved my old Zero when I had it but I wonder why they are still cheaping out on the volume knob.


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## millionmonkeys

Quote:


 Hmm... this is very interesting. To the OP who is debating on whether to wait for this Zero or go for the Compass; my suggestion is to go with the Compass, if you were already willing to shell out the cash for it. I own both the Zero (original) and Compass and feel that the compass is much better than the Zero (not just on cost alone ) Without much information on this new Zero its not fair for anyone to say that it will be better or worse than the Compass. As Scooter stated - the Compass may be going up to $400 shipped after May and I don't think you will be disappointed with the performance of the Compass. 
 

Thanks Rinshin...appreciate the advice..


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## millionmonkeys

For what it's worth, I google translated the Chinese page for this product...

  Quote:


 09 version of Tianyun ZERO (starting point) multi-decoder 

 Following is the 09 version of ZERO engineering prototype picture decoder, is a prototype has been sent to the European Union CE Certification CE laboratory testing, version of ZERO decoder 09 will be listed by the end of May 2009. 

 09 version of upcoming ZERO decoder, in the old version based on the increase and improvement are as follows: 
 1, to increase boot automatically search and lock-signal function 
 2, the boot was not found to the signal will return to the previous state of pre-shutdown 
 3, an increase USB input, USB modular function, the user can choose 
 4, users can control software to open or close the USB signal path to achieve human-computer dialogue 
 5, all the way to increase the power of the D / A converter circuit independent power supply, power supply to reduce the interference to increase the purity of sound quality to enhance 
 6, re-testing of analog circuits and optimize analog circuits structure, enhance the sound output 
 7, the whole nine fin machine 30% increase in height, increase heat to enhance the thermal stability of whole 
 8, panel using dedicated tooling, chassis positioning digital press manufacturers, greatly enhance the assembly process 
 9, power supply design to optimize the total elimination of static interference and adapt to the environment around the power supply 
 10, engineering prototype has been sent to laboratories in the European Union CE Certification CE detection


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## AudioPhewl

Three things spring to mind, for me at least.

 1. No matter what functionality improvements are made, many of these boxes died for no apparent reason, and many users were stranded by their dealers. Long term reliability would have to improve massively with a decent support system in place for them to have any hope of rebuilding the Zero name. It was outstanding for the price - but long-term use proved it was junk at any price for many people.

 2. I'm wondering... looking at those images, and the fact that none detail the innards - what are the chances that the DAC PCB remains the same, with the USB functionality taken care of by a second board that converts it to S/PDIF and injects it to the socket?

 3. It sounds like they are accepting that the heat output of the unit has caused problems in the past, as they are enlarging the heatsinks. Do we think bigger heatsinks are going to help, or does the casing require a better ventilation system?

 I know the appeal of the unit to those new to the hobby, or working with a limited budget. But after seeing the fall from grace on here, I doubt I'd part with $50 for one delivered...

 ~Phewl.


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## Currawong

Interesting that it has USB input now.


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## millionmonkeys

It does seem a real pity that they have dropped the ball so badly.


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## Mitchell.lax

I was planning to come in here and mention how I just bought a Zero a month ago, and how pissed off I was over the new edition so soon after. But to be honest, there doesn't seem to be that big a difference.


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## Rinshin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mitchell.lax* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was planning to come in here and mention how I just bought a Zero a month ago, and how pissed off I was over the new edition so soon after. But to be honest, there doesn't seem to be that big a difference._

 

I want to instinctively with you and say that there doesn't seem to be much of a change. But I think I will give this "new" Zero a glimmer of hope until we get a few reviews in; or even better, if I have a chance of hearing one in person.


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## laobrasuca

any price indication?


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## .Sup

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *millionmonkeys* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It does seem a real pity that they have dropped the ball so badly._

 

what do you mean?


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioPhewl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Three things spring to mind, for me at least.

 1. No matter what functionality improvements are made, many of these boxes died for no apparent reason, and many users were stranded by their dealers. Long term reliability would have to improve massively with a decent support system in place for them to have any hope of rebuilding the Zero name. It was outstanding for the price - but long-term use proved it was junk at any price for many people.

 2. I'm wondering... looking at those images, and the fact that none detail the innards - what are the chances that the DAC PCB remains the same, with the USB functionality taken care of by a second board that converts it to S/PDIF and injects it to the socket?

 3. It sounds like they are accepting that the heat output of the unit has caused problems in the past, as they are enlarging the heatsinks. Do we think bigger heatsinks are going to help, or does the casing require a better ventilation system?

 I know the appeal of the unit to those new to the hobby, or working with a limited budget. But after seeing the fall from grace on here, I doubt I'd part with $50 for one delivered...

 ~Phewl._

 

AP,
 I'll bet I could put a gun to your head and threaten your Dog's life and you wouldn't buy another ZERO!

 You've been there, you've done that, and you have two Tee shirts to prove it!

 .


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## AudioPhewl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AP,
 I'll bet I could put a gun to your head and threaten your Dog's life and you wouldn't buy another ZERO!

 You've been there, you've done that, and you have two Tee shirts to prove it!

 ._

 

I've been there, done that, and given away the two non-buzzing transformers! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'd have another Zero, if I were after some good, cheap sound. But only after the failure rate on here dropped to less than 675 units per month. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It always was a good unit - a very good unit, for a very small price. But I'd end up buying 6 each year... at which point it's no longer a very small price. I spent close to the cost of the Compass on duff Zero DACs. It's an awful shame, because it was a fine sounding piece of equipment and hugely tweakable.

 It's just a shame that something so good, and so much fun, failed for so many people over a relatively short period of time. Hey-ho... we live and we learn. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ~Phewl.


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## Mitchell.lax

For me the Zero was rediculously expensive. It lasted 3 weeks and I payed $200ish USD for it (with opamp upgrades, shipping etc). Thats $66 a week. 

 I pay less than that in rent.

 Will try to fix the Zero because it was a really good sounding unit. Except for the sounds of sparks and crackling as the transformer barbecqued itself.


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## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioPhewl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been there, done that, and given away the two non-buzzing transformers! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'd have another Zero, if I were after some good, cheap sound. But only after the failure rate on here dropped to less than 675 units per month. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It always was a good unit - a very good unit, for a very small price. But I'd end up buying 6 each year... at which point it's no longer a very small price. I spent close to the cost of the Compass on duff Zero DACs. It's an awful shame, because it was a fine sounding piece of equipment and hugely tweakable.

 It's just a shame that something so good, and so much fun, failed for so many people over a relatively short period of time. Hey-ho... we live and we learn. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ~Phewl._

 

but here's a question: how many non moded ZERO units failed? If you mode it a lot it increase the chances of failure, don't? I'm asking it because I'm willing to buy one and not mod it (I would change opamps at most). What's the most current reason for failure? DAC? HP/pre AMP? what?

 lao


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but here's a question: how many non moded ZERO units failed? If you mode it a lot it increase the chances of failure, don't? I'm asking it because I'm willing to buy one and not mod it (I would change opamps at most). What's the most current reason for failure? DAC? HP/pre AMP? what?

 lao_

 

READ the ZERO thread, then you will not ask that question...

 .


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## MadMan007

Hmm lots of Zero hate. I'm sure there were people who had problems but considering its popularity I wonder what percentage it was. We all know more people make noise when something is wrong. 

 My Zero still works fine and afaik a few that I sold are working fine as well. They were all unmodded stock factory units aside from opamp swaps, were the problems disproportionately from after factory modded ones like Lawrence's or end user?


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MadMan007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm lots of Zero hate. I'm sure there were people who had problems but considering its popularity I wonder what percentage it was. We all know more people make noise when something is wrong. 

 My Zero still works fine and afaik a few that I sold are working fine as well. They were all unmodded stock factory units aside from opamp swaps, were the problems disproportionately from after factory modded ones like Lawrence's or end user?_

 

Mine works great too. I'm getting ready to mode it though :allteeth

 Really with well done electronics, you just shouldn't have very many bad ones. The problems that were done were all over the place. You could see if something was done over and over, but it seemed the problems were all over the place with them. There were also a lot that ran for a good while and then "blew up". To me that's the worst because it just plain suggests poor build quality, and maybe poor design quality. Gear with non moving parts should last virtually forever. It is impossible to know the fail rate, but when you see a bunch of guys talking about getting it and then there are a high % of them have failures, you have to pay attention to that.

 It's different when they just show up and say they are posting because of a failure. The ZERO thread is rife with people who you can read about thru all the phases.

 Wish >> Research >> Contemplate >> Discuss >> Buy >> Recieve a POS

 When you see a bunch of those and the Vendor totally abandons them, stick a fork in it, it's done.

 .


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## laobrasuca

"Wish >> Research >> Contemplate >> Discuss >> Buy >> Recieve a POS"

 what you mean by POS?


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## SalmonSalami

Piece of Sh--


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## laobrasuca

"Piece of Sh--"

 oops, ok


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## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mitchell.lax* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was planning to come in here and mention how I just bought a Zero a month ago, and how pissed off I was over the new edition so soon after. But to be honest, there doesn't seem to be that big a difference._

 

I was about to say that you would not regret the previous Zero as long as it works, but given your new post

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mitchell.lax;* 
_For me the Zero was rediculously expensive. It lasted 3 weeks and I payed $200ish USD for it (with opamp upgrades, shipping etc). Thats $66 a week. 

 I pay less than that in rent.

 Will try to fix the Zero because it was a really good sounding unit. Except for the sounds of sparks and crackling as the transformer barbecqued itself._

 

you may start to regret it now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 since the most important improvement they might have done is fix the bad build quality thus increasing the its life-time.

 lao


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was about to say that you would not regret the previous Zero as long as it works, but given your new post



 you may start to regret it now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 since the most important improvement they might have done is fix the bad build quality thus increasing the its life-time.

 lao_

 

I'm willing to bet they added a USB receiver chip and that's about it. It would be very hard to trust them again...

 .


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## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Haoting* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The old champion is back in black and with USB input!




_

 

hummmmm, why the USB port is not visible on the back of the top unit?


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## laobrasuca

some more precisions from the constructor website (thx google for translation):

Google Translate


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## AudioPhewl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_but here's a question: how many non moded ZERO units failed? If you mode it a lot it increase the chances of failure, don't? I'm asking it because I'm willing to buy one and not mod it (I would change opamps at most). What's the most current reason for failure? DAC? HP/pre AMP? what?

 lao_

 

One of mine was modded, the other was standard. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If they spent another $2 on the PCB, I'm thinking the failure rate would be far lower. As things are, the name is tainted, and too many people have been mucked around by their(a...) reseller. I doubt the Zero will recover, and it's a shame - but the current reputation is - IMO - sadly deserved.

 ~Phewl.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioPhewl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of mine was modded, the other was standard. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If they spent another $2 on the PCB, I'm thinking the failure rate would be far lower. As things are, the name is tainted, and too many people have been mucked around by their(a...) reseller. I doubt the Zero will recover, and it's a shame - but the current reputation is - IMO - sadly deserved.

 ~Phewl._

 

Like all Courses at the "School of Hard Knocks", your Tuition was PAID in full.

 .


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## AudioPhewl

It was an expensive course, and left me with zero worthwhile qualifications. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ~Phewl.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioPhewl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was an expensive course, and left me with zero worthwhile qualifications. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ~Phewl._

 

Au Contraire mon ami!

 You are now "ZERO" Certified!

 You are now "ZERO" Experienced!

 You have been "ZERO" Educated!

 You are now a "ZERO" Expert!

 You know what it's like to get "ZERO" return emails from LC!

 You are an expert in what "ZERO" customer service and "ZERO" reliability feels like!

 You have tons more "ZERO" experience than most "ZERO" buyers, who have "ZERO" clues about this manufacturer!

 Ohhh, and you have "ZERO" Quid left in your Wallet! 



 .







 .


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## laobrasuca

Too late, I've just bought (ebay) the new version of the zero (stock setting) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm really tight in money at this time and can't afford the compass (I pray for it to last a long time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Since I've never used an dedicated DAC+AMP in my life, I hope that zero along with the HD650 (gift) will be enough to my non-trained ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ofc, I will not be able to review it or give any SQ comparison, just my modest impression 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I'm pretty sure that other more experiment head-fi members will grab one of these to test 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lao


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Too late, I've just bought (ebay) the new version of the zero (stock setting) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm really tight in money at this time and can't afford the compass (I pray for it to last a long time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Since I've never used an dedicated DAC+AMP in my life, I hope that zero along with the HD650 (gift) will be enough to my non-trained ears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ofc, I will not be able to review it or give any SQ comparison, just my modest impression 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I'm pretty sure that other more experiment head-fi members will grab one of these to test 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lao_

 

Good Luck! They are nice boxes for the price if they don't blow up. I hope you get a good one!

 .


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## Trapper32

We are talking about the 2009 new version aren't we. Seems there's as much negative presupposition about this as there was positive speculation about the compass. People were raving about the compass before the first one rolled off the production line. And now people are commenting on a new version of the zero that no one has even heard. Its fair enough to note the problems with the older version and maybe more importantly with resellers but to comment on this version without first hand listening experience is a waste of time. I realize many who jumped off this bandwagon quickly caught the compass when it went roaring by during pre-production. Think we need a little more objectivity instead of high-fiving enthusiasm.


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## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Trapper32* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We are talking about the 2009 new version aren't we. Seems there's as much negative presupposition about this as there was positive speculation about the compass. People were raving about the compass before the first one rolled off the production line. And now people are commenting on a new version of the zero that no one has even heard. Its fair enough to note the problems with the older version and maybe more importantly with resellers but to comment on this version without first hand listening experience is a waste of time. I realize many who jumped off this bandwagon quickly caught the compass when it went roaring by during pre-production. Think we need a little more objectivity instead of high-fiving enthusiasm._

 

The difference between the Compass and the Zero (new and old version) is so vast they can't be compared fairly (the Zero is 10X worse than the Compass, maybe more)......I know the old Zero inside and out and sadly it's failure rate was/is far too high to be considered anything but unacceptable. Mine just up and died one day, many here that now complain about it have had the same thing happen to them, multiple occasions for some poor folks and then were left twisting in the breeze by the vendor......that tends to sour folks on something rather quickly and it's also something a mere refresh cannot sweep aside. The 2009 Zero has a lot to make up for...let's hope those who make the unit listened to the complaints and did something concrete about it. From the looks of the unit not a lot was changed so the comments that follow are predictable in nature. I'm willing to give it a second chance but the pcb has to be improved first and foremost otherwise it will continue to fail at an alarming rate. Why no internal pics ? Makes no sense considering that was the main selling feature of the original version.....the so called build quality.

 OTOH this unit once modified, is pretty darn good ...I'm sure the new "upgrades" to the 2009 unit will be of some benefit but the jury is out on build quality. Like I've said before if they don't improve the pcb the rest really doesn't matter. It needs a better pcb, period.

 Peete.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The difference between the Compass and the Zero (new and old version) is so vast they can't be compared fairly (the Zero is 10X worse than the Compass, maybe more)......I know the old Zero inside and out and sadly it's failure rate was/is far too high to be considered anything but unacceptable. Mine just up and died one day, many here that now complain about it have had the same thing happen to them, multiple occasions for some poor folks and then were left twisting in the breeze by the vendor......that tends to sour folks on something rather quickly and it's also something a mere refresh cannot sweep aside. The 2009 Zero has a lot to make up for...let's hope those who make the unit listened to the complaints and did something concrete about it. From the looks of the unit not a lot was changed so the comments that follow are predictable in nature. I'm willing to give it a second chance but the pcb has to be improved first and foremost otherwise it will continue to fail at an alarming rate. Why no internal pics ? Makes no sense considering that was the main selling feature of the original version.....the so called build quality.

 OTOH this unit once modified, is pretty darn good ...I'm sure the new "upgrades" to the 2009 unit will be of some benefit but the jury is out on build quality. Like I've said before if they don't improve the pcb the rest really doesn't matter. It needs a better pcb, period.

 Peete._

 

The link below has Internal PIX. Looks like Lipstick on a Pig to me.

 Reminds me of a Russian Volga.

 A 2009 Volga is still a Freakin' Volga no matter how much Propaganda you read about it.

http://translate.google.com/translat...=en-us&num=100

 .


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## Pricklely Peete

After having a good look at the PCB (thanks for the link Les)...not a lot has changed, some better quality parts here and there but that pcb still looks like major POS.

 I agree with you Les...what shade of pink is on that truffle magnet ?

 Peete.


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## Trapper32

@peete
 You're so right..the jury is still out on the 2009 version but the comments are coming fast and furious and they are speculation at this point. I realize the comparison between the compass and zero is unfair as it should be, considering the price, build quality and vendor support. My point comparing the two was the negative fanboyism vs the postive fanboysim from some here on headfi before they had even heard either one. Lets base our comments on actual listening experience and in this case no one has heard this version. Personally I won't purchase this version because of the lack of a reseller that I can trust. But I also wouldn't comment on a product without hearing it. YMMV


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## Haoting

I've sent Tianyun a link to this thread, so we'll see if they are interested in defending their company and their product(s) on Head-fi.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Haoting* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've sent Tianyun a link to this thread, so we'll see if they are interested in defending their company and their product(s) on Head-fi. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






_

 

One only has to read your Posts and see what you are about...

 .


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## Haoting

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One only has to read your Posts and see what you are about...

 ._

 

Likewise dude, likewise. Your shirt pretty much says it all.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Haoting* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Likewise dude, likewise. Your shirt pretty much says it all._

 

You go from thread to thread shilling Chinese Gear.

 .


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## MadMan007

Take it easy forum warriors.


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## Haoting

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You go from thread to thread shilling Chinese Gear._

 

A shill only represents or promotes one company, so your more of a shill than I am, but I rather call you a fanboy since I'm a nice guy. Anyway, let's keep this thread on topic - Tianyun's ('09 ediition) Zero DAC.


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Haoting* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've sent Tianyun a link to this thread, so we'll see if they are interested in defending their company and their product(s) on Head-fi. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







_

 

I'd be interested to see what they have to say about the one that burned up a pair of headphones, and the one that the transformer blew up in. The problem is not that they need to defend themselves online, it's that they need to make a product that, at the very least, is reliable, if not simply dangerous to own.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Haoting* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A shill only represents or promotes one company, so your more of a shill than I am, but I rather call you a fanboy since I'm a nice guy. Anyway, let's keep this thread on topic - Tianyun's ('09 ediition) Zero DAC._

 

I'll point out a Shill that Shill's lot's of Companies. A guy who works at the Hong Kong Better Business Bureau!






 .


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## laobrasuca

It will work, it will work, please, please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and for a long while, please, please


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It will work, it will work, please, please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and for a long while, please, please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm prayin' for ya Bro'!! Me too by the way, I still have a Zero.

 Don't pay any attention to the Reality Show that has broken out!

 .


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## ghettocoolie

I'm mildly interested in the New 2009 Edition Zero as well. I bought an upgraded Zero from Lawrence in September 2008 and mine still works. I do only use the DAC section and perhaps that's helped extend it's longevity. So from my perspective my inexpensive foray into head amps/dac has been quite fun thus far.

 Having said that, I'm looking for a good excuse to buy the new Compass and my Zero hasn't given me one yet.


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## diditmyself

****, I wish I read this thread before ordering the new Zero. I wasn't aware of the crappy quality, and I hadn't heard of the Compass before. I hope group-praying will help.


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## ciphercomplete

I never had a problem with my Zero, although I only used the DAC section when I owned one. Armed with the Earth Discrete opamp it was a phenomenal sound DAC for the price.

 I think one of the problems is that there are so many Zero owners. There are bound to be more incidents of issues at least more than reports of issues with say a Bel Canto DAC that retails for more the 1K. That said I have not read the Zero thread in a while so I might be completely wrong about that.


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## Starky

I used to own a Zero myself and never had any problems. Good quality unit, if you ask me, and always surprised me whenever I went back to it: I only sold it out of necessity.

 I would wager that at least some of the Zero-related problems were down to carelessness in opamp choice or insertion, both by retailers and owners. (Pure speculation of course)


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## AudioPhewl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Trapper32* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We are talking about the 2009 new version aren't we. Seems there's as much negative presupposition about this as there was positive speculation about the compass. People were raving about the compass before the first one rolled off the production line. And now people are commenting on a new version of the zero that no one has even heard. Its fair enough to note the problems with the older version and maybe more importantly with resellers but to comment on this version without first hand listening experience is a waste of time. I realize many who jumped off this bandwagon quickly caught the compass when it went roaring by during pre-production. Think we need a little more objectivity instead of high-fiving enthusiasm._

 

Sadly, after seeing the pictures of the newer internals, it looks like much the same PCB is in use. This isn't a bad thing IF the trace thickness has been increased along with the build quality. But... I'm thinking it's the same PCB build quality. BUT, if the PCB quality has improved, I'd imagine the failure rate would drop by a large extent, at least I'd hope so.

 Yes, the overall picture on here may be skewed, as plenty were modded. But - and it's a big but, I've owned 3, of which one was DOA(and I was jerked by the seller), one was modded and still works perfectly, the other was modded and suffered the sudden Zero death syndrome. So I've one stock dead unit, one modded dead unit, and one modded working unit - that's not a great success ratio. And the mods weren't done badly - I spent 2 years repairing SMT laptops, and I've worked in mobile phone repair too.

 My DOA unit either had a faulty DAC IC, or traces to it from the PCB. The unit that failed either had a faulty s/pdif receiver IC, or traces to it from the PCB.

 PCB quality was poor IMO.

 Maybe the new one is better - it's not the same PCB. It's really quite similar, and the quality may be improved, but I'm not holding my breath having seen the pictures.

 Forum members are a vocal lot - a great product and great support will generally result in very vocal, satisfied customers. A product with high failure rates and poor support _did_ result in very vocal, annoyed customers.

 It is fair to say that some Zero owners have never had a problem - which is great, because it really was a very decent sounding unit for the money. But some Zero owners were hugely let down, one way or another.

 Happy listening, and good luck to everyone who is trying the new model. I do hope things turn out good for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ~Phewl.


----------



## MadMan007

Don't worry man, with the number of Zeroes sold I'd wager the actual rate of bad units is small. That's the one thing always missing in these situations, the true overall failure rate, since we don't know how many were sold. My situation is the exact opposite of Audiophewl's, 4 units that have no problem afaik. Going by that should I judge that all Zeroes are good? No, and same goes vice versa. There was an initial problem that turned out to be bad opamps, an opamp swap fixed it. The main thing is seller support if there is a problem, wsz0304 (or wsz<whatever>) on eBay is very good at after sale support.

 Audiophewl - you should try swapping opamps if you have a spare. Opamps can fail too and not just because of what they're plugged in to being bad.


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm prayin' for ya Bro'!! Me too by the way, I still have a Zero.

 Don't pay any attention to the Reality Show that has broken out!

 ._

 

thx bro', very kind from you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *diditmyself* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_****, I wish I read this thread before ordering the new Zero. I wasn't aware of the crappy quality, and I hadn't heard of the Compass before. I hope group-praying will help._

 

yes, let us pray. I trust in my God, no problem. But the mankind may be very ambitious when money comes to the game... Hopefully the "is a prototype has been sent to the European Union CE Certification CE laboratory testing" is there for something good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, I bought mine from wsz0304 as many of you have said he is an honest man.

 lao


----------



## AudioPhewl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MadMan007* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audiophewl - you should try swapping opamps if you have a spare. Opamps can fail too and not just because of what they're plugged in to being bad._

 

Certainly not opamps. No doubt at all. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ~Phewl.


----------



## laobrasuca

Here's the photos from the company site of the:

 new:





 and the old:





 zero DAC board versions. Besides all changes they have done on the board (say hello to the usb socket, capacitor brand changed, higher heat-sink, long array of "budan" disappeared - one of them "replaced" by an additional voltage regulator with headsink, the two "joysticks" disappeared, etc.) one thing I found interesting is that they added a ground next to the opamp there where we did not have in the old version:






 I think those guys are aware of people's wish to replace the 2604 by the HDMA's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now no more HDMA's ground wire in the air, and this is good coz' I'm planning to buy the moon one.

 lao


----------



## Currawong

If a poor PCB is to blame, that would explain much. eBay sellers putting in opamps backwards was indeed part of the problem. The use of the AD1852 was probably its saving grace, along with opamp rolling. It wasn't detailed, but it sounded ok.


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioPhewl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[...]This isn't a bad thing IF the trace thickness has been increased along with the build quality. But... I'm thinking it's the same PCB build quality. BUT, if the PCB quality has improved, I'd imagine the failure rate would drop by a large extent, at least I'd hope so.[...]_

 

I agree with you. But the trace thickness is more like to be a problem only in the sectors where the current is more powerful, meaning in the AC/DC output stage and in the hp/pre amp section before the headphones. In the DAC section, after the voltage regulators, it should not be a problem.

 lao


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## AudioPhewl

It's not just the thickness of the traces, it's the quality of the solder pads. That's likely the bigger problem IMO. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ~Phewl.


----------



## laobrasuca

well, I can't really see the quality of the solder pads trough the photos, I would need to look closer. But if you are saying so, there's no reason why it would not be.

 Changing a bit of subject, any of you guys has the voltage (+V and -V) spec at the DAC opamp socket? I'm willing to replace the original OPA2604 by LME49860 or 2x AD797BRZ, but they all have a different input voltage spec. Actually I'm more concerned about the AD797BRZ which seems to be specified only for two voltages (±5 V AND ±15 V), while the OPA2604 or the LME49860 have more wider voltage spec (like FROM ~±5 V TO ~±24V). Do you think that it would be any remarkable difference in SQ if we feed the AD797BRZ with ±5 instead of ±15 or vice-versa? What would happen to the AD797BRZ if we feed it with ±10 for example? I wonder if these difference voltage specs are one of the possible reasons of malfunction or even complete failure for the zero?

 And what about the voltage specs at the sockets of the HP/pre amp? I'm also willing to change them by the LT1364. Do you think the LME49860 would also be a good alternative to the HP/pre amp stage?

 thx, lao


----------



## Pricklely Peete

It's right around + 15V - 15V Lao. Be careful with what IC OPA you stick in there, some will overheat rather badly (LT1364 gets really hot in the dac socket). Have a look at the Zero thread (page 1) and Penchum's list of older OPA's...it'll give you a pretty good idea what can be used from the new OPA line ups (comparing data sheets).

*Trapper 32*....I know I have not heard the '09 Zero but it's highly likely it'll sound very much like the old Zero except the circuit upgrades which follow the FrankenZERO mods kinda closely will get rid of a lot of the grunge,grain and veil the old unit had. The voicing will remain unchanged for the most part because the topology (analog output section hasn't changed much), dac/receiver are identical to the last version. I think the PSU and V reg sections did need attention and I'm glad they did something there. If the '09 ends being far better in reliability and sound quality that's fine with me, who wouldn't want that anyway ? I don't want it to fail but I am also wary as are a lot of other members here and for good reason.

_General statement..._

 The description talks of a separate PSU section....to me that means separate as in a separate pcb....if it's all on once pcb it's not separate.

 The traces between the mains supply caps are so thin (on the old PCB) and the pads so poor (easy to lift along with the traces) that it took a very deft hand to modify this board without causing some kind of damage. I'm very good at soldering etc and even I lifted a pad or two something of which I haven't done since the Zero mod and that is at least 7 projects back/ hundreds and hundreds of parts swaps etc...I haven't lifted a single pad since. So......I hope for everyone who buys one sake they (Zero builders/designers) took heed of the complaints and sunk money into the pcb. The pics to my eye look like they have not and I hope I'm wrong about that because I'd like to modify a '09 for fun and see if the Frankie mod translates.

 Peete.

 PS *Les*...why don't you Frankie your Zero (you've had the kit for quite a while now) ? I'm pretty sure you'd be amazed by the end result. If anything you'll have some fun tinkering


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's right around + 15V - 15V Lao. Be careful with what IC OPA you stick in there, some will overheat rather badly (LT1364 gets really hot in the dac socket). Have a look at the Zero thread (page 1) and Penchum's list of older OPA's...it'll give you a pretty good idea what can be used from the new OPA line ups (comparing data sheets)._

 

Thx for the precisions. I wasn't planing to use LT1364 in the DAC, only in HP/pre amp. But now I see that people say that the LME49860 is a very good opamp not only to the DAC but the HP/pre amp too. So I'm considering to use it in DAC and HP/pre amp sections (3 of them, so). What do you think? Besides people is saying that they compete very closely to the HDAM (specially with sun v2) in terms of SQ, so I'm really tempted to give them a chance. People also say that they are very competitive with 2x AD797BRZ and since the latter need the single to dual adaptor and the LME49860 is already dual and comes on the DIP package, I more likely to use them.

 BTW, I saw in the Tian Yun web site that they replaced the NE5532 by the Texas JRC082 OPAMP FET in the HP/pre amp section for this new zero. However, I can't find anywhere information about it. Do you guys know anything about them? Are they any better than the NE5532?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Trapper 32*....I know I have not heard the '09 Zero but it's highly likely it'll sound very much like the old Zero except the circuit upgrades which follow the FrankenZERO mods kinda closely will get rid of a lot of the grunge,grain and veil the old unit had._

 

It would be great to have some FrankenZERO flavor by default.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The description talks of a separate PSU section....to me that means separate as in a separate pcb....if it's all on once pcb it's not separate._

 

I was wondering too


----------



## mbd2884

Looks cool, but I'd still hold out until the Zero is sold by an actual distributor who can be held accountable for their products. With real number, real customer service.


----------



## diditmyself

I just got my 2009 Zero DAC with USB inpupt and OPA627 opamps. It's working. The solder work isn't top notch. I think I have to reflow a couple of joints. I also have to order some opamps for the headphone amp since they use TL082. Why are there two dual opamps for the headphones?

 The sound is soft and mellow. I have no DAC to compare it to but the tonality is the same as my iRiver IHP120 (modded with polypropylene output caps). In comparison the E-mu 0404 is super sharp and piercing (if my memory serves me right, it broke down a couple of months ago).


----------



## hopeless

I think the 2009 Zero is much more interesting than the former one that caused that enormous thread to exist.

 I will consider saving up for one, to compare to my modified Super Pro's and DIYEDEN. If it sounds mellow then it should meet my liking.


 For the opamps I'd use the LME49860 (which I'm using in one Super Pro, that I just modified, that's sounding great), or the OPA2211 (perhaps even better, surely so on paper), or the FET OPA827 (x2). But there are others, if more unknown to the masses, that I'd try.


 The only other tweak I see a real use for (apart from anything concerning reliability) is probably bypassing the four Silmic with WIMA MKS or MKP as usual.


----------



## diditmyself

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hopeless* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the 2009 Zero is much more interesting than the former one that caused that enormous thread to exist.

 I will consider saving up for one, to compare to my modified Super Pro's and DIYEDEN. If it sounds mellow then it should meet my liking.

 The only other tweak I see a real use for (apart from anything concerning reliability) is probably bypassing the four Silmic with WIMA MKS or MKP as usual._

 

Yes, the tonality is quite warm, I find it balanced, but I'd like a bit more aggressiveness. I don't know how much the OPA627s and the ELNA caps (or what ever it is) are to blame. Why not bypass everything with polypropylene caps? The DAC's output impedance is 65R. It should be capable of driving the load of a preamp/headphone amp.


----------



## laobrasuca

I've got mine two days ago. Working so far. I took the stock version and put three LME49860. But, well, so far I'm pretty down with all these "you must buy an amp to drive your HD650" stuff. I feel no reall difference compared to the stock inboard sound card. I'm using the optical out from macbook pro (btw, usb is just the same sound, no difference for me using CD audio), all set to bit-perfect and all volumes at 0dB (max vol in iTunes), but, well... Maybe it is because i'm too much used to hear every music using the equalizer, crancking up the bass and the highs and using SRS/WOW like effects, increasing soudstage and etc..... Now, with all this disable and using the 09ZERO in bit-perfect it's kind lacking music... Maybe I got to get used to! I did the tests with ALAC (apple's flac) and compared to mp3 or aac at 256kbps with no notorious difference. Maybe it's my ears, maybe it's that it needs to burn in, don't know. Maybe i need to understand the adjectives you guys like to use: warm, clean, punchy, wide soundstage, accurate, tube like, fast, so on and so furth.

 About the construction, I will post some photos in here after. As Penchum said in his review of the old zero, "A quick inspection of the unit proved it was indeed new, clean and made with more than reasonable build quality for its price range". I let it burning overnight and temperatures were very ok when i woke up this morning. The heatsinks were normaly warm, I could lay my fingers on them with no pain, as well as the opamps (less hot than the heatsinks) and the toroid. In terms of volume pot, I use it at 9 oclock, driving my HD6520 with a high volume, really high (iTunes at full volume).

 well, this is it.

 lao


----------



## Rinshin

lao,

 I felt pretty the same way you did when I finally decided to put some money into a better system... i.e. not an on-board soundcard. I bought the Zero (pre 2009 edition) and I did not really hear a difference. In fact, I felt like I had to trick myself into believing that I did not blow my money on equipment that I didn't need. However, people in this community assured me that I did not do anything wrong they suggested that I give my ears a few weeks (around 2 weeks) to adjust to the new sound because the difference won't be night and day. After 2 weeks I started to critically listen to the music playing from my headphones and I was convinced that it was different from my computer. To make sure that I wasn't just making it up in my head I did a little A/B testing and sure enough I felt that the Zero had given my music a life. The instruments in the track sounded more separated and there was definitely more warmth coming from my headphones. I should mention that I was using a SR225, the bass that I felt was lacking before was finally there.

 I'm not saying that this will be your case, but I just wanted to offer my personal experiences and hope that when you ears adjust that you will be able to distinguish the difference. Happy listening =)


----------



## laobrasuca

Thank you Rinshin, I appreciate you concern, really do. I hope I will feel the same way you did/do during the next month, at least to justify my investment (even if it represents a very modest one compared to what the average head-fier does). You are certainly right on that my ears need some time to feel the difference, I mean, it can't just be a collective hallucination that a DAC+HPamp performe better than a stock soundcard. Well, if I won't be able to feel any difference it will serve at least to show me that I'm somehow deaf, and got to pay attention to my ears! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thx again for you encouragements, very kind from you.

 lao

 ps: btw, what you mean by A/B test?


----------



## diditmyself

Laobrascura and Rinshin, I agree, I'm also a bit disappointed. It's not as exciting as I hoped it would be. It's just slightly better than my modded iRiver IHP120.

 I don't like the design of the headphone amp. Far too many parts that seem unnessecary, and the amp looks bad measured with an oscilloscope. I'm going to do a radical but rather simple mod to make it better (hopefully). I've started a thread in the DIY section.

 I'm also thinking of modding or bypassing the DAC output stage, but I have no experience in this field, so I'll probably keep a lower profile on this.

 There are two threads about modding the old Zero, but I'm not sure if those guys can be trusted. Some of the mods claimed to do wonders should theoretically do nothing to the sound. By adding esoteric parts there's a great risk of placebo effect, and there's a great risk of instability since these parts are wired in with long leads.


----------



## laobrasuca

you know, I mean, it's not that it is the fault of the design of the zero. All head-fiers here agree to say that it is a very honest unit in terms of sound quality. So, my point is that, come on, what's the guarantee that if I buy another amp I will have a significant improvement to my ears, or cut the caps, or mod it? I mean, I'm not comparing the zero to a 5000 dollars piece of equipment, but comparing to a cheap laptop onboard soundcard, for heaven's sake! People say that going from onboard basic soundcard to the zero is like night and day just as they say that going from zero to a compass or whatever it is night and day! But for my ears, there's no night and day whatsoever! This makes it pretty hard to me to justify paying additional hundreds of dollars to an dedicated amp. I would definitely need to listen to some else's system and them buy if the difference is there! I'm not saying that I'm a victim of the "flavor of the month" but, come on, when you read hundreds of people which have a very good background on hi-fi products saying this and that about the product it must means something! So, voila, when you read "oh, the compass is more than twice as good compared to the zero", well, I don't know what to think. Honestly, I tend to think, "well, at list I didn't pay 300 dollars for nothing, but 'just' half of it". Disillusion is a hard feeling...

 lao


----------



## shadowlord

i can't coment on the 2009 zero, because i bought mine 2 years ago.
 but for the money it's a very versatile unit, and with a few easy mods it sounds supprisingly good. i modded mine with a additional ventilation hole in the top on the day i received it when i noticed that it was burning hot. maybe that saved mine from failure. 
 but since hearing is very subjective, many people have different results with the same gear.


----------



## diditmyself

I'm running mine with bypassed DAC opamp now. Straight from the DAC output via Solen/SCR 4.7 uF polypropylene capacitors and a passive RC filter (150R/10nF). I like it better this way with a cleaner overall sound and not as soft as before. I'll be running it like this for a while and then mod the active filter and run it with OPA627 again. There was a thread at diyaudio.com about those cheap ebay CS4397 DACs, and people came up with an active filter that made sense in theory and was reported to sound good. If I simulate this in LTSpice it looks much nicer than the original filter. The only thing that has to be done is change some resistors and caps and remove a couple of caps.

 It's said that sigma-delta DACs like AD1852 and CS4398 need a filter on the output, so the Lampizator mods (straight out via caps, or via a tube buffer) shouldn't be up to the job if you want to do it right. The FrankenZero mod doesn't address the design flaws neither in the headphone amp nor the output stage. The Frankenmod is rather cosmetic, just adding or upgrading caps.


----------



## diditmyself

I was too curious to find out what it would sound like with a proper active filter. It sounds like a transistor amp again. I hear the sound of different opamps. A spark of magic has disappeared. AD797 - exciting but a bit sharp, AD8599 - like AD797 but not as refined, OPA627 - warm and nice but too soft, LM4562 - correct but totally lifeless.

 I guess my choice will be a passive filter, so now I'm about to order parts to make a 2nd order filter.


----------



## G~mann

Hi, I've been reading Head-Fi posts for a few weeks now, but this is my first post. Here goes... I've been wondering about the new ZERO DAC (2009 revision) with OPA627, USB and other improvements. Been thinking, what portions of the FrankenZero mod may no longer necessary? The project seems to be broken down into phases. There's been those here that's implied that portions of the FrankenZero project (in their opinion) may have been more cosmetic than significant audio improvements. I am considering the new 2009 ZERO DAC with OPA-Moon or OPA-Sun v2 upgrade. Unfortunately, I am not a DIYer. The full FrankenZero project seems like a pretty large undertaking (for me). I just wonder in pursuit of SQ improvement, if "the juice is worth the squeeze" - speaking from a modding perspective not from ZERO's past quality issues. In light of recent changes to the 2009 revised ZERO DAC, could a updated FrankenZero mod be more appropriate? Optimized, maybe even with less complexity centered around only changes with undeniable audio improvements (if such could, ever be agreed upon). Where simplicity and stability is the focus maybe more than absolute SQ enhancement. I have nothing but fascination and respect for those that came up with this FrankenZero mod. This is not a bash by any means. Reliability issues aside (for the moment) I think this new ZERO dac (at $160 delivered) is very interesting dac. It seems to offer much bang for the buck. But this here is specifically about modding (I'll leave my thoughts about other DACs for another msg.) I know many here have moved on to bigger and better but the original ZERO was once the modded dac choice of many. I'm very interested in hearing the views of those knowledgeable (devoting countless hours) with the great FrankenZero mod which along with the discreet (heavenly body) opamps from Audio-gd, help bring affordable great sounding dacs to the masses.(all be it shortlived)


----------



## diditmyself

I don't have any experience from modding DACs, this is my first one, but in amplifiers the most important upgrades, besides the topolygy, are the active parts such as opamps and transistors, and capacitors if there are any in the audio path. IMO you should always be aware of the placebo effect, especially when you build or mod stuff yourself and if you use expensive parts. Regarding the FrankenZero mods, I have some objections:

 1. Claiming that by cutting the 22 pF capacitors at the output connectors (from signal to ground acting as a low pass filter with a very high cut off frequency), the treble will be increased by a magnitude isn't trustworthy. There's still a 10 nF cap from signal to ground and the capacitance is 454 times bigger than that of the 22 pF cap. The filtering is beyond the audible spectrum.

 2. I'm no electronic wiz, but I think it's common knowledge that decoupling caps should have as short connections as possible, and adding those big PIO caps with long leads will introduce resistance and inductance that will probably counteract their purpose.

 3. There are still electrolytic capacitors in the audio path, and most people agree to that electrolytic capacitors sound inferior to film caps.

 4. The DAC filter/buffer stage looks weird, and if simulated the square wave looks really messed up and the cutoff frequency is about 100 kHz when I think it should be just above the audible range 20 kHz. The FrankenZero mod doesn't address this at all.

 5. The headphone section: there are electrolyic caps at the input, and there are electrolytic caps from feedback to ground to reduce DC-offset. Since the signal is already capacitor coupled and the opamps in the heaphone amp are JFET input types with very low bias currents, no such capacitors are needed. There's a buffering stage in the headphone amp which I don't think is necessary and could be bypassed. The large values for the feedback resistors will introduce noise and could be lowered. There's a 1 Ohm resistor on the output. This will increase the crosstalk and reduce the damping factor. None of these issues are dealt with in the FrankenZero mod.

 PS. The Zero is a **** to mod because of the solder they use. It's very hard to remove.

 I'll be getting the parts for my planned mods in a couple of days. This will be a radical but cheap and farily easy mod.


----------



## G~mann

I won't pretend that much of this is not way over my head. But I take it that you saying that the modding should focusing on replacing the electrolytic capacitors (in both headphone & main signal paths ) with polymer film capacitors. Would this be a 1 for 1 replacement of caps? Would there still be a need to bypass any remaining caps not replaced? Most decision usually comes with tradeoffs. What would be the tradeoff of bypassing the remaining caps? Would it lose any of this present "warm" qualities with this conversion? what about stability? If I am looking at adding an Opa-Moon, would that require any other considerations in the type\rated film capacitors used? Thanks.


----------



## diditmyself

To give you an idea of what I mean. This is the simulated 10k square of the DAC buffer/filter. 






 Modded.






 The headphone amp






 And the HP amp modded






 This is how the HP amp behaves IRL http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/zer...3/#post5769531

 In my experience a peaking amp such as in the examples above sounds sibilant. Some might find it detailed. Maybe they designed it to behave and sound this way to compensate for the dull sound of cheap opamps. Maybe not. Who knows. I don't want this behaviour.


----------



## pmd

recieved my 2009 today and there is no rca signal.
 digital audio cable ( coaxial )works fine.
 havent tryed the the optical or usb.
 got it from snow on ebay.
 just emailed him and am awaiting his response.




 will let you know what happens.
 paul
 in florida


----------



## G~mann

After reading the last 2 posts, I am finding it very difficult to justify buying this DAC. This new revision gave the manufacturer an opportunity to correct the ZERO DAC's shortcomings. It seems that did not address much more than heat issues. I don't know much at all about electronics. I'm just a frugile consumer who enjoys researching a purchase. diditmyself, you claim you are not an electical engineer, yet you found fundamental design claws that certainly should have been apparent to any manufacturer worth it's weight in salt. If not at the design\release to the orignial DAC surely at the time of revision where quality control and the overwelming need to alter and modify the original ZERO DAC were all over the forums. I did not want to spend $400 for a high quality great sounding DAC (Compass) but I surely to do want to spend $225-$300 for a modified P.O.S. DAC that might last me 6 months. They apparently still have quality control issues even in the mist of backlash and public (forum) scrutiny. It's product NAME is mud. If they don't care about their image enough to put out a quality product, I'm certainly not going to care about their product enough to buy it. Unlike diditmyself, I do not have the Know-how to correct this DAC's deficiencies and salvage it if it decides not to work in a couple months. Compass is looking very appealing now. A product designed from the ground up with the customers feedback and expectation in mind. Compass just cost so much after S&H, PayPAl fees, and custom. I'll first consider other cheaper alternates. Maybe Little Dot + Gamma DAC combo. There are so many interesting amp + dac combinations out there. Decisions. Decisions.


----------



## wynshad12

G~MANN...YOU SAID IT BEST OF ALL
 i myself is here looking for answers to that supposedly goodly tianyum Zero Dac and after reading all them 82 replies to this thread from all you guys I'm thinking I'll take a pass also that been said ...subsequently i must be missing some information on the audio Gd compass? as everyone is doing import.
 there this company in Chicago called pacific valve @ 

www.pacifacvalve.us they sell the whole line of audio Gd . and lots more good stuff and if your not from chicago no taxes, no shipping! for a lot less than import., and no customs duty as anyone check them out.


----------



## inspecality

I bought the old model zero in august 08, it has survived a few moves and still works perfectly... I am unsure why so many people have failing units. 

 This upgrade doesn't really offer that much more than the old model though, so I just bought an MK III as my needed upgrade.


----------



## hopeless

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *inspecality* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am unsure why so many people have failing units._

 

Simple: the pcb itself is of low quality, plus the parts are sticked on it very hastily, thus not so precisely as one would expect from a serious manufacturer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mine had some parts (resistors and film caps) hanging from the bottom of the pcb, apparently added the last minute to fix something..


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After reading the last 2 posts, I am finding it very difficult to justify buying this DAC._

 

well, it's simple: you have money or not? How much? That's all. ZERO is a DAC+HPamp solution for 121$+50$ = 171$ (in my case I got -30$ of rebate). As all say, it's a honest solution, with good (not superb nor excellent) design and components. You will hardly find something at this price. But if you can spend like 100$ more, you can take a two units solution, or maybe zaulu dac 2.5 or 3.0 which also include a HP amp. If you will use it for a desktop PC you can also think about the Asus Xonar STX or ST for 200$ which is an excellent DAC and nice HPamp. All in all, it's the money which make me take the zero, knowing that the HPamp section can be replaced in the future by a dedicate HP amp.

 lao


----------



## wynshad12

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pmd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_recieved my 2009 today and there is no rca signal.
 digital audio cable ( coaxial )works fine.
 havent tryed the the optical or usb.
 got it from snow on ebay.
 just emailed him and am awaiting his response.




 will let you know what happens.
 paul
 in florida_

 

hi PMD" DID YOU PAY ANY (DUTY) TO CUSTOMS ON THAT UNIT OR IS IT BELOW ALLOWED AMOUNT... as after reading LABRASUCA POST  it kinda sorta make sense to get one minus customs fees. and please let us know how the analog out,optical or usb. work out.
 Winston
 in miami fl


----------



## G~mann

wynshad12, Thanks for the Pacific Valve tip. they have the Compass dac for $363 delivered. Still more than I wanted to spend, but doable. Especially if the do the free Opa-moon HDAM that Audio-gd is giving out the month of June. Lao brought up a good point about using the Zero primary as a DAC. I too can get it for ~ $140 delivered. But it's not as simple as "Do I have money or not" A better question would be "Will it last more than 6 months?" or "Will my RCA output not work either?" Didn't they just started selling these 2009s last month? Already 2 posts of quality concerns. diditmyself, you have heard as well as evaluated this dac. In your opinion, is the ZERO still worth it using it as a DAC alone. I have no modding experience and would only be able to do much more than adding the Opa-moon if I find that the OPA627 is not warm enough. I am coming from a Emu 0404 USB is why I am so fixated on soft warm tones. For $140 , if left unmodded would any of you (who's actually seen and heard one) recommend the 2009 ZERO to a friend? If so, for dac only usage or both? Thanks


----------



## pmd

winston - no extra charges. got it on ebay. e-paypaled it. was shipped fast. delivered to my door by usps......

 snow- has emailed me and indicated he can help me fix it.
 but i am working 13 hr shift back to back and wont be able to dedicate much time to this untill thursday probably.

 what i heard fresh new thru the coaxial with my K-702's sounded ok.
 anyway . more later.

 paul


----------



## laobrasuca

@wynshad12: who's talking about custom fees?
 @G~mann: it seems that the reliability is a more important problem than sound quality for the ZERO. I hope it's not the same for the newer version. About to recommend to a friend, I would say that it depends on his pocket. For me it's a no brainer that the Xonar ST is the best value for the money for someone who has a desktop PC. For the laptopers, the Zero is a good first step for hifi for those on a budget, where one could buy an independent amp some time later (like a 150$ one), and maybe a dac after later on (for the same amount of money). For those who have more money to spend, compass seems the way to go, and for those who are rich, take a 3k$ solution, that's all.

 as for the pmd RCA problem, it is really weird that the RCA is not working while the HP is! Does it make any difference if you use the pre-amp or not? Mine is working so far in both ways.

 lao


----------



## wynshad12

*PMD,G~MANN,LAO*
 it all make sense... as for me i have never use an independent/stand alone dac before!
 now in my old age life I'm getting hooked on headphone so the new zero at $160 shipped is a way out for me' i took the plunge" pull the trigger on it Tuesday i choose the black.
 i have a CREEK OB-21 HP AMP,ATH-AD700,SENN HD595 AND THE ATH-AD1000 HEADPHONES. that said I'm tryng to sell off the ATH AD1000 an the SENN HD595

 wyn


----------



## G~mann

*wynshad12*
 I too "took the plunge" and bought the new Zero (OPA627) along with the OPA-Moon module for $183 shipped (after rebate) I decided with this mainly for price. Most here say (aside from reliability) it does sound pretty good. I may eventually get a separate headamp such as a Little Dot hybrid tube. I could then use the LD headamp back & forth between my laptop\EMU 0404 setup and the Zero hook to my main system.


----------



## laobrasuca

@wyn: since you're planning to sell those two gears and given that you already have a good amp (better than the one in zero) you could wait a bit and buy a dedicate and better dac instead of the zero.

 @G~mann: why did you buy the OPA627 version if you are planning to install the OPA-Moon instead? I bought the stock version because I was planning to use an OP-AMP other than the OPA627.

 lao


----------



## pmd

well the latest on my rca problem -
 snow has said send it back for refund.
 we went back and forth with a few emails but he never offered any simple instructions to fix. and i am not a electronics whizzz so we came to a stand still.
 i have the early version of the zero and it has worked with out problem - that is why i thought i would try 2009.
 fyi
 the owners booklet is a difficult read. i dont do chinglish to well.
 i operated the early zero intuitively... but the instructions with the 2009 seem even more awkward to understand. 


 lao -
 what color does your phone/preamp light show when you use rca inputs ?
 and what are the colors of the other two buttons while useing rca in ?

 appreciate answer.
 thanks
 paul


----------



## finoyvoy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pmd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well the latest on my rca problem -
 snow has said send it back for refund.
 we went back and forth with a few emails but he never offered any simple instructions to fix. and i am not a electronics whizzz so we came to a stand still.
 i have the early version of the zero and it has worked with out problem - that is why i thought i would try 2009.
 fyi
 the owners booklet is a difficult read. i dont do chinglish to well.
 i operated the early zero intuitively... but the instructions with the 2009 seem even more awkward to understand. 


 lao -
 what color does your phone/preamp light show when you use rca inputs ?
 and what are the colors of the other two buttons while useing rca in ?

 appreciate answer.
 thanks
 paul_

 

Yeah, I'd prefer if they spoke better american over there.


----------



## hopeless

For the newbies...


 Don't waste time, patience and money trying to fit those audio-gd discrete opamps, it isn't worth it.

 Use an outstanding new audio opamp like the OPA2211, or go directly with the better (than the equivalents) Burson discrete opamp.


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pmd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well the latest on my rca problem -
 snow has said send it back for refund.
 we went back and forth with a few emails but he never offered any simple instructions to fix. and i am not a electronics whizzz so we came to a stand still.
 i have the early version of the zero and it has worked with out problem - that is why i thought i would try 2009.
 fyi
 the owners booklet is a difficult read. i dont do chinglish to well.
 i operated the early zero intuitively... but the instructions with the 2009 seem even more awkward to understand. 


 lao -
 what color does your phone/preamp light show when you use rca inputs ?
 and what are the colors of the other two buttons while useing rca in ?

 appreciate answer.
 thanks
 paul_

 

too bad it is not working for you :/ It may be just a little component which is fry or something, because the RAC out use the same DAC output used by the HP/pre amp...

 for the colors: the only color my Phone/Preamp lights is green, the same green when the Digital input is set to USB. However, you got to pay attention to the following: 

 1- when you not use the preamp for the RCA (no green light is on), you can't control the volume for the RCA output. You got to use the speaker's volume control or the volume control of a separate HP amp. In this case the Phone output will be mute, no signal, only the RCA feed, no matter if your headphone is plugged to the Phone output.

 2- when you turn the HP/preamp on (green light will appear), you can't have the Phone and the RCA output feed at the same time. It will give preference to the Phone output: a) it will feed the Phone output if you have a HP connected to it, cutting the RCA output b) if no HP is connected to the Phone out, then the RCA output will be feed.

 voila, I wish your RCA is not working just because you have the HP/preamp on and a headphone plugged to the Phone out. It would be a little silly, but it's better than have a malfunction


----------



## laobrasuca

@hopeless: it's true that the discrete are a bit expensive compared to top-notch OP-AMPs like the OPA2211, LME49860MA, LME49720HA, 2xAD797BRZ and others. I will probably make no difference between than and a discrete one, or, in the best case, a very slightly difference which don't justify the difference of money. However, for the comparison between the Burson and the other discrete, well, it's a whole new discussion.

 lao


----------



## pmd

lao -
 i may be totally mixed up.
 i thought the 2009's rca's were inputs to recieve signal from my cd players rca out.
 you are saying the 2009's rca's are out puts to send 2009 signal to speakers or amplifier !
 if that is the case then i have made a big booboo thinking the zero 2009 rcas were inputs.
 that being the case my zero 2009 is functioning as it should so far.

 i just tryed to use the rcas as inputs on my first gen. zero .... and of course they dont recieve the cd signal. this zero only recieves optical and coax and sends signal out via rcas or hp.
 and my 2009 recieves signal via usb, optical or coax and outputs rca or headphone

 ok - i got the picture now.
 my booboo-
 thanks
 for helping me figure it out.
 paul


----------



## wynshad12

thanks LAO" for that bit of info..that's what i like about you smart kids.'smile'.
 i have seen that information some where on the FORUM" so when PMD- got the analog bug, i went looking but just couldn't find it. PMD them things are (OUT) MAN!!

SNOW-MUST CUSSING IN CHINGLISH  ha ha, LAO-your idea about waiting to get a good dac make sense but i just wanted to see and hear that zero and compare it to something else you know like...EMOTIVA TO THE OTHER BIG PRICE $$$$ HIGH END AUDIO!? PMD- is that AKG----ok for you ? i wanted to try the 
 AKG-K701 AND SENN HD-650 next..what do you guys know. 
 wyn.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hopeless* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For the newbies...


 Don't waste time, patience and money trying to fit those audio-gd discrete opamps, it isn't worth it.

 Use an outstanding new audio opamp like the OPA2211, or go directly with the better (than the equivalents) Burson discrete opamp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The Burson OPA is made by Audio-gd.

 hopeless = Andrea folks. Just so you know....


 Peete.


----------



## laobrasuca

@Peete: y, Burson is the old version of the current HDAMs from audio-gd.

 @Paul: y, boy, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It has never been an input! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It is labeled as Line out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It works just like in the old version, an output right out of the DAC analog circuit meant to bypass the amp of the zero by using an external one. As you know now the only inputs the zero got are digital ones (coax, optical and USB) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Big booboo there, but as I said, it's better than having a malfunction 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The zero is a more a DAC than an amp in the sense that its amp section is not so worth to use as an stand alone amp, while the DAC is good enough to play the role of outboard DAC. All all-in-one DAC+AMP solutions offer you an analog output straight from the DAC or preamped buy the amp section after the DAC. The compass is an all-in-one DAC+AMP which has a line in, so in this case you can use the analog out from your CD player to be amplified by the AMP section of compass. But usually people don't buy an DAC+AMP to use just like an AMP, it's a big waste of money. Now that all misunderstandings are cleared up, enjoy your music OUT of your zero 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 @wyn: y, things are OUT as you say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 About your choice to try the zero as DAC and AMP, I understand you and it really is complete legitimate! Very often we only see how good an equipment is when we compare it to others. Starting from a less expensive solution will make you value the money invested in more expensive gears and understand what make these more expensive gears so much better (or not). About the headphones, I can tell you that the HD650 is clearly different, more consistent, more tight, more equilibrated than my previous HD515, that's for sure. It's a top-notch piece of equipment. About the K701, I can't say much about them, I've only see it in pictures. All I can say is that personal taste may be of a big importance on your decision to which gear to chose, not only the money.

 lao


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I know Lao 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The BA module is the first gen Earth module from Audio-gd. I have one along with all of the other revs and generations of Sun, Moon, and Earth (not to mention many LT.BB and TI IC OPA's).

 Peete.


----------



## Kurotetsu

Looking at the images, it looks like it only has 1 indicator light for digital input now (the 'Optical' indicator light was replace by the 'mute' indicator light it seems). So how do you know what input its using? Do the optical, coaxial, and USB inputs each have their own distinct color or something?


----------



## G~mann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@wyn: since you're planning to sell those two gears and given that you already have a good amp (better than the one in zero) you could wait a bit and buy a dedicate and better dac instead of the zero.

 @G~mann: why did you buy the OPA627 version if you are planning to install the OPA-Moon instead? I bought the stock version because I was planning to use an OP-AMP other than the OPA627.

 lao_

 

The problem is I have not actually heard any of these dacs. I listen the opinions of those who have and reviews I've read on the net and in stereophile magizines. Several sources state that the OPA627 have a good sound just that the Audio-gd HDAM modules sound better. I don't recall hearing much about the stock dac (OPA2604). There was less than a $10 difference between the two. For less than the price of pizza I have an opamp that I can fallback to even if just to have a different sound (less softness than Opa-moon) I guess I could have waited but I saved on S\H buying the two together. I can alway sell the OPA627 if I absolutely hate it's sound. I really don't know anything about the new dacs you mentioned other than the AD797BRZ. I wasn't certain if it was 100% compatible. If so, I could later pick up the AD797BRZ and sell the OPA627. I do not know if I made the right decision. Only time will tell. I suppose there are much worst choices I could made for $183 than better. C'est La Vie


----------



## wynshad12

"OK GUYS A MOMENT OF SILENCE FOR THE KING OF POP"-----------------------------------------------------------60 SECONDS, RIP MICHEAL.


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is I have not actually heard any of these dacs. I listen the opinions of those who have and reviews I've read on the net and in stereophile magizines. Several sources state that the OPA627 have a good sound just that the Audio-gd HDAM modules sound better. I don't recall hearing much about the stock dac (OPA2604). There was less than a $10 difference between the two. For less than the price of pizza I have an opamp that I can fallback to even if just to have a different sound (less softness than Opa-moon) I guess I could have waited but I saved on S\H buying the two together. I can alway sell the OPA627 if I absolutely hate it's sound. I really don't know anything about the new dacs you mentioned other than the AD797BRZ. I wasn't certain if it was 100% compatible. If so, I could later pick up the AD797BRZ and sell the OPA627. I do not know if I made the right decision. Only time will tell. I suppose there are much worst choices I could made for $183 than better. C'est La Vie_

 

I understand you. The difference of money being so small it's true that it worth testing and comparing how the well known OPA267 performs compared to these HDAMs. As I said to wyn, it's a legitimate choice as long as the money involved worth it, it's better than eating a fat pizza 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 We always learn a lot when comparing personally different components like these, specially when we are rookies. Furthermore I'm not in position to tell anyone here what is the best choice, after all I'm just a newbie with a big mouth 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I agree with you, with $183 you can't go wrong, unless you will use the DAC+AMP with and only with a desktop computer with MS Windows XP/Vista, in which case I personally think that the Xonar ST is a better choice. But once again, these equipments are so cheap that it worth buying both and compare.

 lao


----------



## laobrasuca

@Peete: I know you know it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It was just to give an additional information for other newbies like myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 @wyn: regardless the personal taste for music style, all here must agree that this guy was a brilliant show man, composer, artist, singer, dancer. This guy was ages ahead his time, not only artistically but also in the technological aspect involved in the production of his musics and videoclips. Till this date his musics and videoclips are far and way better than almost all trash/junk pop alike music produced currently. A big monument this guy is/was.

 lao


----------



## Nessus

Hi,

 After a long time debating how much do I want to spend on a starter DAC/headamp for my DT 770 Pro I decided to go with new Zero Dac.
 I was initially considering Compass but since it would cost me 415$ shipped comparing to Zero 160$ (OPA627) I decided to try Zero first.
 Can't wait to get my hands on it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Are there any ppl using it with 80 ohm DT 770 Pro?
 I will use it mainly to listen to bands like Goldfrapp.


----------



## G~mann

*lao*
 I've seen the Xonar Essence STX has been getting very good reviews. I kinda wanted my next pc soundcard to have the Bluray codecs (DTS MA\DD TrueHD) etc as well the card being near audiophile quality build. I haven't been too fond of Asus these days. Although, they seem to roll out the Essence STX way better than the Xonar HDAV cards. I will probably wait a few months and see what other manafacturers (Auzentech or EMU) may bring to the table. I don't really know if its even possible to have an uncomplicated \ undoctored audio path in a product which incorporates all the PAPS & AACS compliance junk. I noticed the Essence STX utilitizes the AV100 and not their "flagship" AV200 chipset.


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nessus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 After a long time debating how much do I want to spend on a starter DAC/headamp for my DT 770 Pro I decided to go with new Zero Dac.
 I was initially considering Compass but since it would cost me 415$ shipped comparing to Zero 160$ (OPA627) I decided to try Zero first._

 

just like me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 About the DT770 pro, however, I have no idea how it will sound since I've never used one.

 lao


----------



## G~mann

DT 770 Pro looks pretty nice. I've just recently heard of them. Statement in true noob fashion huh?) I'm considering matching the Zero\Opa-Moon up with the Grado 125i. I'm currently using the Senn HD280. They're closed designed, very detailed but too bright for my taste. I don't know if I'll dislike the Grados for that same reason. I'll have to find a way to audition them and others before buying. I listen to wide range of music from softrock-hiphop, modern jazz-new age -classical. For quite a while now I've been in a female vocal mood. Feist-The Reminder, Sia-Some People Have Real Problems, Tori Amos-To Venus and Back (disc1), Very Best of Diana Krall, Diary of Alica Keys, Karrin Allyson-Imagina Songs of Brazil and many others. I cannot wait to hear these soft vocals on the Zero\Opa-moon dac. So excited. It's Christmas in July.


----------



## Nessus

G~mann, so you decided to upgrade to opa-moon. I decided to check first how annoying are known problems as inbalanced volume at low levels. Then, problably after a couple of months I will decide what to do next - stick with stock Zero, upgrade it, add external amplifier or replace it.
 So far I am using my DT 770s with X-fi usb and initially I was shocked how good they sound (my first 'serious' phones). Now, after 3 weeks of use I start hearing limitations of X-fi. I hope I will be satisfied with Zero a bit more


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*lao*
 I've seen the Xonar Essence STX has been getting very good reviews. I kinda wanted my next pc soundcard to have the Bluray codecs (DTS MA\DD TrueHD) etc as well the card being near audiophile quality build. I haven't been too fond of Asus these days. Although, they seem to roll out the Essence STX way better than the Xonar HDAV cards. I will probably wait a few months and see what other manafacturers (Auzentech or EMU) may bring to the table. I don't really know if its even possible to have an uncomplicated \ undoctored audio path in a product which incorporates all the PAPS & AACS compliance junk. I noticed the Essence STX utilitizes the AV100 and not their "flagship" AV200 chipset._

 

Well, usually the hardware on the sound card is not used to decode the encoded audio stream (mp3, aac, flac, etc...). This is usually done via software (codecs used by the players) using the CPU so that the sound card maker does not have to pay the royalties due to the technology that it should implement on its hardware (the audio and video standards actually specify the decoder, not the encoder). As a consequence, only the decoded (digital) samples are sent to the sound card, and the soundcard either outputs it's DAC's output (line out), it's DAC+AMP(analog domain amplification) or AMP(digital domain amplification)+DAC signal (headphone out) or the decoded (digital domain) samples themselves trough the S/PDIF, for example. Since the decoding process of the encoded audio stream is relatively of low complexity (specially if compared to the video decoding), the soundcard makers are not pushed to implement hardware audio decoding. Video cards, however, are sometimes used to accelerate the video decoding process. That said, IMHO Asus or any other soundcard maker will probably not implement the decoder on it's hardware for normal (from newbies to audiophiles) consumers (maybe for professionals, who knows). The hardware, or more specifically, the audio processor (AV100 for ST/STX), is used to emulate the EAX effects, the equalizer, the ambient presets (soundstage, truebass, etc.), to format the streaming according to the S/PDIF standard, to menage the outputs (how many channels and stuff), etc.

 What did you mean by: "uncomplicated \ undoctored audio path"?

 lao


----------



## G~mann

*lao*
 The Audigy was known for taking whatever samplerate given and resampling it to 48Khz. The Xonar HDAV when initially released downsampled to 24bit\48Khz even at times when the source should not have required a protected path. Then there's cards that waste real estate on cheap DSPs to allow effects such as XFi's Crystalizer or EAX. These may be welcomed if you're into games or using cheap desktop speakers. But not only are these such cards far from being bitperfect, they purposely alter the original source beit hardware, software, or a combination of both. I prefer a soundcard with the same qualities we look for in dac\amps. One that simply outputs what it receives clean, untampered with as much as possible. With the additional ability of playing multichannel LPCM and bitstreamed Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA formats. Basically taking the best of the Xonar Essence STX and xONAR HDAV 1.3 soundcards.


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...One that simply outputs what it receives clean, untampered with as much as possible. With the additional ability of playing multichannel LPCM and bitstreamed Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA formats..._

 

in this case, the ST currently is the sound card for you:

 1- the Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA decoding process is handled by the codec at the CPU level;
 2- the ST, just like the STX, handles streams up to 24b/192KHz bit-perfect (however you have to select the frequency manually unless they do some progress in the drivers);
 3- the ST will handle 7.1 multichannel analog output through the Xonar H6 multi-channel extension board (however, I have no idea how much this extension board will cost).

 Nevertheless, the Zero is more flexible for stereo audio since it doesn't require a PCI/PCI-e slot neither the MS Windows XP/Vista.

 lao


----------



## G~mann

*lao,*
 You are right. This card looks very impressive. Particularly from a hardware stand point. Nearly everything I'm looking for (minus HDMI out) "Is in there" Although the lack of HDMI is not really a showstopper,(although the idea of having 7.1 audio thru 1 inexpensive cable is enticing but this would brings back up the issue with the dac.) I only hope that Asus don't ruin this cards hardware potential on the software side with shoddy drivers and restrictive or unstable software. I think I,m still be ok with going the external (dac\amp) route at this time seeing the Xonar Essence ST has not been released at this time and Asus always seem to have problems with their initial release drivers. With the new line of high end audio cards and motherboards this may not be the same Asus company the made my p.o.s. motherboard a few years back. I am crossing my fingers that they get this right.


----------



## laobrasuca

@G~mann: just to endorse the story about the Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA decoding process being done via software, take a look at the few first paragraphs of this review: Xonar HDAV1.3 Deluxe: Asus HTPC sound card does Everything | silentpcreview.com There you will understand that even the Xonar HDAV1.3 which is supposed to decode the new standards, actually does not process a single decoding instruction, but instead it's the software which come with it that do the job (and you certainly pay the price for this feature when you buy the card). It's a simple example of how the decisions are taken into the multimedia industry: politic games and money, lots of money (don't worry, this does not surprise me, believe me!)

 lao


----------



## G~mann

*@lao* - Hey, we may need to create a new thread for discussing the Xonar Essence \ HDAV audio cards. I believe we may have gradually hijacked this thread over the last half dozen posts.

*@ all* - Getting back on the subject of the 2009 ZERO DAC, have you or anyone else here tried the ZERO dac (original or 2009 rev) with any of these opamps (OPA2211, LME49860MA, LME49720HA, AD797BRZ) mentioned a few posts back? Are they pin compatible or must something be changed or altered in order for them to work stable? Do these such opamps have a burn-in period to allow them to "open up"?


----------



## wynshad12

ho man this server must be having a bad day i lost my post 3 times.

 YA MAN...@Lao,@G~MANN- came by a few to see if there's anything new and positive about the ZERO! in anticipation to hear from @PMD' about his analog BUG ? as @Lao did explain a few post back what to do...so----where is pmd.
 oh with that XONAR ESSENCE THING i was like what the "BLEEP BLEEP" these guys talking about ! anyways i took gander over to silentpcreview site and its all good 

 guys i had a little eye popping an Friday....i was in daytona bch FL. on friday and this old buddy called me over to his place to check out MUSICAL FIDELITY-V-DAC AND V-CAN THE HP WAS THE ATH-AD700 ALL HOOKED TO WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER. i was blown away big time! my reference was Diana Krall as i listen to the look of love CD at home. and i have never hear she sings BESAMA MUCHO like that before!BUT HEY we are still waiting for our brand new 2009 ZERO DAC. $500-160=340....Wyn


----------



## laobrasuca

@G~mann: there already exists topics for the stx/st. 

 About the opamps, for National Semiconductors the MA suffix means DIP-8 packeting while HA means TO-99 packeting, but you can also fit it in a DIP-8 socket, just be careful to the pin-to-pin correspondence. Both LME49860 and LME49720 are duals, so you need just one of them per socket. The OPA2211 from Texas Instruments is also a dual OP-AMP, however it seems to have only surface soldering packeting, so that you will need an adaptor (or you can try to adapt it like this http://www.headphoneamp.co.kr/ftp/si.../Tip/SMD-4.jpg). For the AD797BRZ you will also need an adaptor, but this time an single-to-double adaptor since the AD797BRZ is a single OPAMP so that you need 2 of them per socket. The LME49860MA, LME49720HA and the AD797BRZ seems to have a good reputation in this forum, but I don't now if the same can be said about the OPA2211A. I have 3 LME49860MA in my 09zero, but I need to compare it to others to see what if they are any different to my ears.

 @wyn: please let us know your impressions about the zero compared to what you could taste from the Musical Fidelity DAC + AMP. Oh, and about PMD there had no bug, just misuse 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 lao


----------



## wynshad12

my impressions of the new zero 09 dac/preamp/amp/usb/ect. first things first shipment-was very fast coming from hkg, the packaging was A+ it took me quite some time to get to the box with the zero...been anxious an all" i cut the box open finally i looked at the zero IMO its a nice looking unit i picked it up, it had a nice weight to it comparing to it other stuff that cost about four the zero...
 as i had mentioned my brief encounter with musical fidelity v-dac and v-can! today is my second day with the zero- but the v-dac & amp still have the edge but at $340 more'

 this 09 version IMO is a great value and cannot be equal for the money' I gave it four stars **** for the dac section, optical,coaxial,usb....BUT BUT BUT! YOU NEED A DEADICATED HEADPHONE AMPS. "PERIOD" the mid range/female vocals is just too much to handle coming from the zero headphone out' that's how i see it. that been said it makes a nice mate to/with my creek obh-21' b-line i can live with it.
 Wyn.


----------



## G~mann

*Wyn*

 What opamp do you have? How many hours do you have in yet? Can you tell any difference in sq as you continue to burn in? Why is dedicated amp needed? Thanks


----------



## G~mann

*lao*

 How would you describe the LME49860MA? I think I may want to do an inexpensive upgrade to the amp dacs. I would need opamps that would sound pair up well with the OPA-Moon used as the main opamp.


----------



## wynshad12

G~MANN
 IT'S THE 09 NEW VERSION ZERO 24/192KHZDAC HEAD AMP @USB @ OPA627
 BURN IN TIME <> 24 HOURS. MY REMARKS TOWARDS DEDICATED AMP NEEDED" MABE WAS A LITTLE TOO SOON... so strike that FOR NOW, it's just that i may have been some what optimistic towards the sound signature....as it was sounding harsh' and over bearing in my ears with the volume at about 8-o'clock..and as soon as i connect the rca out to my obh-21 it was sounding so good!! that said i will keep it on fire for a lil'bit longer burning. 
 so bring on the pointers....I AM STILL A NEWBIE 
 Wyn,


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## G~mann

I should be getting my 09 Zero this week. I may burn it in with first the OPA627 and get use to its sound before I place the OPA- Moon in it. I have yet to determine if I am going to throw money into replacing the two headphone opamps. I'm thinking about going external. Maybe one of the Little Dot MK or Darkvoice hybrid tube amps. These small amps can bounce back and forth between my laptop-0404-GMX 2.1 setup and my main mediapc-Zero-Onk705-Ascends setup. Hopefully adding a bit of warmth to either. I really need to find a replacement for my Senn 280s. I am thinking neutral to warm opens or semis. The new Grado 125i looks interesting. I haven't heard them yet. I just have to find a place that auditions decent cans around here.


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## laobrasuca

@G~mann: what do i think about the LME49860MA? Well, listen, I've compared it to the stock one (2604) and with the LT1358 and I can say that it produces a more detailed and open (more wide stage?) sound, more pleasant to my ears. And regarding to the bass, I really think it is more present. About the headamp part, I'm really convinced that a dedicated amp would bring a better overall sound, as Wyn suggested. Anyway, the LME49860MA represents clearly a better opamp compared to these two. Now, compared to the OPA627 I can't say much, but if I base my opinion on the opinion of the other forumers around here I would say it represents a improvement. But with respect to the MOON, it will maybe not be the same. But don't forget that it all depends on your ears, really does. I'm pretty sure I can't identify half of what a trained ear can.

 With all the burning time of my 09zero along with the HD650 I can say that the DAC does make a very good work compared to my soundcard (macbook pro's), which is not a bad one. It separates much more the two channels, you can identify much more easily the instruments. Without a doubt it is a much better DAC. But the AMP is lacking of some punch I think. Someday I will buy an dedicate amp, if I can spare some money for this.

 lao


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## G~mann

I thought the "NA" were DIP-8 packets and the "MA" were TO-99 packets. I found a pair of LME49720NA/NOPB online yesterday at a decent price so I picked them up. I hope I bought the right ones. It did say they fit Dip-8 sockets. I looking forward to rolling these opamps. I hope I have the patience to not rush the process and go thru the stock ones first then roll the 49720s (replacing TL082s) for the headamp and then OPA-Moon (replacing OPA627) for the main so that I can hear difference with each upgrade. I hope the OpaMoon\49720 sound signatures compliment each other.


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought the "NA" were DIP-8 packets and the "MA" were TO-99 packets. I found a pair of LME49720NA/NOPB online yesterday at a decent price so I picked them up. I hope I bought the right ones. It did say they fit Dip-8 sockets. I looking forward to rolling these opamps. I hope I have the patience to not rush the process and go thru the stock ones first then roll the 49720s (replacing TL082s) for the headamp and then OPA-Moon (replacing OPA627) for the main so that I can hear difference with each upgrade. I hope the OpaMoon\49720 sound signatures compliment each other._

 

sry to say this but as I said above:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for National Semiconductors the MA suffix means DIP-8 packeting while HA means TO-99 packeting, but you can also fit it in a DIP-8 socket, just be careful to the pin-to-pin correspondence._

 

the MA are the DIP-8 pack and the HA te TO-99. The NA is the SO, in this case you will need to adapt it either using an proper adapter or doing something like this: http://www.headphoneamp.co.kr/ftp/si.../Tip/SMD-4.jpg

 Once you receive your op-amps and test them, please come back and tell us your impressions.

 lao


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## bbbretzel

maybe a stupid question...... but, anyway....

 I've changed the two poor original op amps that were in the Zero '09, for 2 LT1364.

 but my question is : does the op amp rolling in the DAC section change the sound in the hearphones plugged in the phone out of the Zero ?
 or I just have to change the op amps in the "head amp" section ?
 sorry if this question seems stupid, but I try to understand


----------



## AudioPhewl

DAC IC -> DAC opamp -> Headphone amplifier

 Yes, the opamp used after the DAC IC will change the sonic characteristics given to the headphone amplifier, pre-amplification. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ~Phewl.


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## G~mann

Apparently my Zero dac was damaged during inspection at customs. The seller says it would take 1-2 weeks for another one to arrive. He gave me the option to cancel order and I took it. The more I thought about buying this dac and a external hybrid amp - I could just buy the Compass DAC\AMP. The Compass is the dac I really want. Why compromise? I will only regret it in a couple months. I currently play FLAC files via a realtek onboard audio. I found the Asus Essence STX shipped (w rebate) for $145. This will provide improved audio over my onboard s/pdif + good dac + good headamp. I'll save for the Audio-gd Compass. Hopefully I can get in on another bulk order or hit another promo. As I said a few post back, there are so many choices. In 2-4 months there may be another "gotta have this dac" being sold.


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## laobrasuca

DAC damaged at the customs? How this? What makes you say that the problem was with the the customs service? Did they open the ZERO and hit it with a screwdriver? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe off topic, but comparing the STX and COMPASS DACwise, I don't know if the compass is better. If so, not for a big margin. The AMP is more likely to be better, but again not so sure. Anyways, going to one or another you will have a better sound than using the zero (that's what I hope) and surely a better build and components quality. If the compass is more expensive, it has at least the advantage of being portable (in case it concerns you somehow, like home->work->home->work->home....) and more versatile (you can use it on desktop, laptop or any sound system at least as a DAC only or DAC plus preamp if need).

 lao


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## bbbretzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioPhewl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_DAC IC -> DAC opamp -> Headphone amplifier

 Yes, the opamp used after the DAC IC will change the sonic characteristics given to the headphone amplifier, pre-amplification. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ~Phewl._

 

thank you


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## G~mann

lao, This is what I've been told. That the carrier informed the seller that it was "damaged during inspection at the China Customs office" I sounds strange but the seller has been nothing but open and honest with me so far. I have no reason not to believe him.

 The Xonar Essence STX is being discounted everywhere probably due to the ST coming out real soon. I would have preferred the ST but both have nearly the same components. I should be able to roll the LME49720 with it as well. (After rechecking advertising screen it states that the chip I purchased is for the DIP-8) It looks as they may have typoed the product number. I hope I can tell a difference with my current setup. I've been using onboard Realtek audio with bitperfect (wasapi) drivers. My Onkyo 705 is dac is doing the d/a conversion in chassis. Using the STX, the conversion done in pc would be sent 4ft way across near numerous power\signal cords and two ups. I don't know if this will add a bit of noise or hum to the signal. Also unsure if the 705 handles analog as well as it does digital although the only thing I really use for music is the Audyssey MultEQ in stereo or PLIIx\DTS for center channel playback.


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## laobrasuca

G, man, tell me, what would be the role of the new DAC/AMP? Why are you talking about your receiver? You want to connect the next DAC (zero, stx, compass, whatever) to it and use the loudspeakers/headphones connect to it? I've not read much about your receiver, but it's DAC is probably (very?) good, I don't know if you will have big improvements on buying an additional DAC to feed it. If you want to hear music from your computer to it, you just need to feed it with the S/PDIF output from you basic soundcard and let your receiver do the rest. I would buy a new DAC/AMP only if I really would like to use it and it alone to feed my headphones or pc speakers.

 About cabling the stx lineout to you receiver (analog signal) I don't think it would suffer audible interference for 1,5m of cable, it should not be a problem. I think you don't have electromagnetic field strong enough on you installation to induct fat parasites on your signal. But you can always buy the stx and see it by yourself and send it back to your shop if you think the extra money is worthless. You could test the following setups:

 1- digital out (s/pdif) from your current soundcard -> digital input receiver -> receiver's headphone output 
 2- analog out from stx -> analog input receiver -> receiver's headphone output
 3- stx's headphone output directly.

 (unless you want use your audio pc independently from your receiver, in which case, I repeat, I don't understand why you are mentioning your receiver)

 lao


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## G~mann

Lao, Buying the STX serves two purposes. One, it gives me an audio device other than my pc's built-in audio. I just don't know if I will hear noticeable improvement. The realtek onboard audio sound pretty good to me thru the Onkyo's s/pdif inputs but everyone seems to dismiss built-in audio. I thinking maybe "ignorance is bliss" applies here in my case. Secondly, I am finding greater appreciation of headphone audio particularly since I cannot get the detail and presence I want at the volume I am forced to listen due to family\neighbors, etc. Lastly, I simply love the functionality of the 0404 USB but I find it way to harsh. Oddly, I haven't tried the headphone through the Onkyo. For some reason I guess I've thought a receiver's headphone output were inferior. I'll try it this evening and see how it sounds. If I am very pleased with this STX soundcard than the only thing I would need it a nice portable headamp to use with my laptop and second pc setups. Something portable enough to move around between the three setups. Maybe one of the Little Dot amps. I'm sure all this is sounding very confusing. Every once in a while I just want to spend money. I been working very hard these days and find music becoming more of an outlet. The fact that it's a splurge and I understand this is why I limit myself to $200 right now.


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## laobrasuca

y, I can understand you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's the magic of the music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lao, Buying the STX serves two purposes. One, it gives me an audio device other than my pc's built-in audio. I just don't know if I will hear noticeable improvement. The realtek onboard audio sound pretty good to me thru the Onkyo's s/pdif inputs but everyone seems to dismiss built-in audio. I thinking maybe "ignorance is bliss" applies here in my case._

 

well, if you use the s/pdif out of the soundcard, you will hear no difference at all, since the s/pdif out of the soundcard just take the decoded digital samples from the audiosteream going to the card and encapsulate it using the s/pdif standard. This is the setup number 1 I suggested you in the last post. So, for this "reason one" you don't need to buy a better soundcard, the "built-in" audio will do not worse not better than any another card in the world.

 however, if you use the DAC out (line out) of the current card and that of the stx (eg, setup 2 I said in my last post, where you connect the line out of the card to the analog input of your receiver), or the headphone out of both (ie, setup 3 in my last post, where you will use the DAC and the AMP of the stx) and make a direct comparison, there my friend you will feel the difference right the way. For me this is the whole reason for why I would by (and I did buy) a second (and, ofc, better) DAC+AMP solution. It makes no sense to buy another DAC+AMP if you will only use the s/pdif output.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Secondly, I am finding greater appreciation of headphone audio particularly since I cannot get the detail and presence I want at the volume I am forced to listen due to family\neighbors, etc._

 

but you can always use the headphone out of your receiver, as you said later 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, if you enjoy it, the "second reason" is also not necessary 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lastly, I simply love the functionality of the 0404 USB but I find it way to harsh._

 

how are you using your 0404 at this moment? What's the setup?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oddly, I haven't tried the headphone through the Onkyo. For some reason I guess I've thought a receiver's headphone output were inferior. I'll try it this evening and see how it sounds._

 

indeed, it's funny how you never tried it even for curiosity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Tell me what you think about, and the difference in sound if you compare to what you can hear directly from your pc's built-in audio headphone output (with all audio enhancements, like equalizer, SRS/WOW effects, turned off). However I can't tell you if the headphone out for your receiver is amplified or not, even if I have a feeling it is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ If I am very pleased with this STX soundcard than the only thing I would need it a nice portable headamp to use with my laptop and second pc setups. Something portable enough to move around between the three setups. Maybe one of the Little Dot amps._

 

The problem of the STX (just like any soundcard) is that you will only use it on one pc, you cannot use it with your laptop neither in a second pc, unless you buy a second stx (or if you remove from the pc1 and go to the pc2 and you go back and forth, which is pretty much painful). In this case, if you buy only an AMP and not a DAC you will only benefit of the better AMP, and for the laptop and the second pc you will have to use the DAC from the current soundcard. However, you can port the zero, compass or any other DAC+AMP stand alone solution everywhere (as I said before), always giving you the exactly same quality no matter where you plug it (pc1, laptop, pc2).

 By the way, what you mean by a portable amp? Are you referring to those powered by batteries? or by portable you mean not onboard? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure all this is sounding very confusing. Every once in a while I just want to spend money. I been working very hard these days and find music becoming more of an outlet. The fact that it's a splurge and I understand this is why I limit myself to $200 right now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

Nothing more legitimate for a worker to give to itself nice little gifts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And if the music can relax you, cool you down, it's a no brainer! If the money can buy you a smile, don't hesitate (ofc, moderately, $200 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). I don't think it's a splurge in this case, because if you don't buy it you will go to see a doctor to buy anti-stress medicine, so... take it as you medicine/therapy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lao


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## G~mann

*lao,*

 Primary use would be ...

 digital out (s/pdif) from your current soundcard -> digital input receiver (#1)
 stx's headphone output directly (#3)

 yOU say "the "built-in" audio will do not worse not better than any another card..."

 I did not know if jitter control or other signal handling issues would be better with a highend dedicated card compared to onboard audio chip.

 I've never used the motherboards analog line outs \ never used the Onkyo headphone out 
 I just recently started using headphone (since the purchase of 0404 usb) I would have to get extension cable since it is not located in an optimal listening area.

 you say "... with all audio enhancements, like equalizer, SRS/WOW effects, turned off"
 I never use that stuff. Only Audyssey room acoustics correction.

 Considering I like the sound of the STX, buying a great sounding portable (battery powered preferred not required) amp may be all I need (hence don't need 2nd dac - Compass) 

 I am using the 0404 primary as a portable dac/headamp device. I just need a warm portable headamp to soften it's sound and small enough to take to the other PCs or the office.

 Sorry for the formatting, I do not know how to use multi-Quote in messaging.

 G~mann


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## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Primary use would be ...

 digital out (s/pdif) from your current soundcard -> digital input receiver (#1)
 stx's headphone output directly (#3)

 yOU say "the "built-in" audio will do not worse not better than any another card..."

 I did not know if jitter control or other signal handling issues would be better with a highend dedicated card compared to onboard audio chip._

 

Let me quote this: "Jitter is timing variations in the clock that controls when the digital-to-analog converter (DAC) chip turns each digital sample into an analog signal". In other words, when you use the digital out of your card in s/pdif format, the jitter problem may happen in the external DAC (your receiver, in your case) so that whether you use a built-in sound card or the best of all cards there's nothing the card can do apart to format the digital input samples into the s/pdif standard. It is up to the DAC to lock the frequency and the phase properly.

 However, if you use the DAC from the soundcard, in this case a better soundcard may control more precisely the time variations of the audio signal. That's one of the differences between the STX and the ST, for example.

 Whenever you have a spare time, take a look at the Chap. 4 of this book Principles of Digital Audio - Google Books (Principles of Digital Audio, by Ken C. Pohlmann) If you have not too much spare time, you can take a look from the page 124 on, where it discuss about the jitter problem in a more general way, not only the DAC jitter problem. It's maybe a bit too much scientific reading, but it is a very precise and accurate source of information 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've never used the motherboards analog line outs \ never used the Onkyo headphone out 
 I just recently started using headphone (since the purchase of 0404 usb) I would have to get extension cable since it is not located in an optimal listening area._

 

what's your headphones?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you say "... with all audio enhancements, like equalizer, SRS/WOW effects, turned off"
 I never use that stuff. Only Audyssey room acoustics correction._

 

good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry for the formatting, I do not know how to use multi-Quote in messaging._

 

oh, it's easy, you just hit the quote bottom and copy and past the open (eg, 





			
				G~mann;5830838 said:
			
		

> ) and close ([/ QUOTE] - there shall not exist "space" between "/" and "Q") tags to each paragraph you whan to quote separately
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Currawong

To multi-quote, you click on the multiquote button on each post you want to quote, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




then click on "Post Reply" when you're ready to write your post. It works even if you change pages or view other threads.


----------



## G~mann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 what's your headphones?_

 

Senn 280 Pro. I'm looking for a good pair of opens. Maybe the Grado 125i.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *snow48_6* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i have the new zero dac._

 

What do you think of the new zero dac? Which opamp do you have?


----------



## wynshad12

hi' guys how u'all doing"...and as the zero dac rolls on "GOOD OR BAD" it sure brings out the best of U'ALL THINKING" can i ask a none dac question i was checking out the AKG K701 ?
 and i ran into a problem--- akg (white k701) and k701 studio whats with the huge price gap between them....the white <>$500+ the other for $268---299 ? whats up with that.

 Wyn


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*lao*
 The Audigy was known for taking whatever samplerate given and resampling it to 48Khz. The Xonar HDAV when initially released downsampled to 24bit\48Khz even at times when the source should not have required a protected path. Then there's cards that waste real estate on cheap DSPs to allow effects such as XFi's Crystalizer or EAX. These may be welcomed if you're into games or using cheap desktop speakers. But not only are these such cards far from being bitperfect, they purposely alter the original source beit hardware, software, or a combination of both. I prefer a soundcard with the same qualities we look for in dac\amps. One that simply outputs what it receives clean, untampered with as much as possible. With the additional ability of playing multichannel LPCM and bitstreamed Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA formats. Basically taking the best of the Xonar Essence STX and xONAR HDAV 1.3 soundcards._

 

some news for ya. The VLC 1.0 is now released and it has the AES3, Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD, Blu-Ray Linear PCM decoders (among others) embedeed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lao


----------



## G~mann

*lao,*

 This is good news but I may still stick with MPC-HC \ Core AVC combo. The lastest versions utilize the GPU for DXVA and CUDA acceleration. Still important (in my system) when decode 1080p material. Though, I don't believe MPC-HC can handle any of the things you listed above.


----------



## blawhh

so... whats the verdict? still like the old one?


----------



## AudioPhewl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wynshad12* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi' guys how u'all doing"_

 

Drunk! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [/quote...and as the zero dac rolls on "GOOD OR BAD" it sure brings out the best of U'ALL THINKING" can i ask a none dac question i was checking out the AKG K701 ?
 and i ran into a problem--- akg (white k701) and k701 studio whats with the huge price gap between them....the white <>$500+ the other for $268---299 ? whats up with that.

 Wyn[/QUOTE]

 Sound on the earlier ones was good. Very good for the money, and made better with a little tweaking. But many of the units(standard or modded) failed after several weeks or months, making the quality of the sound quite irrelevant.

 Good units, let down by penny-pinching. Things may be better now though...

 ~Phewl.


----------



## G~mann

*Caution! - very long post ahead. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*
*@ Phewl* I have some reservations about the ZERO dac failures. How many of the original ZERO's failure were due to mods? I was real hard on the manufacturer of zero several post back due to recent quality issues. Come to find out one of the apparent problems was due to user's mistake. He coulda "saved face" but came back and openly admitted his mistake. How many others actions (modding) caused the early demise of their ZERO. Back then some mods were done by resellers as well. I went thru 90+ pages of ZERO posts. Although people noticed the poor quality soldering and questionable design methods early on, I didn't find much talk of unit failure until nearly 6 to 9 months after release. I do not know much about electronics but in the computer world on the subject of overclocking or going fanless, it's said that excessive HEAT kills. If not immediately, it can shorten life. The RROD issue with XBox 360 is a prime (_over simplified_) example of what cheap lead free solder, questionable (thermal) design and extreme heat can do. Many of the mods and part choices made back then for the ZERO are way over my head. Even still, the LT1364 was way too hot for me to have used. The SQ improved surely could not have justified the added heat (LT1057 would have been a more acceptable comprised) Following the threads back, at least 2 people whose ZERO died chose to use the LT1364. There were countless other combinations of opamp, resisters, caps, bypassing, fixing lifted pads or traces, etc not speaking of solder quality\skills. The Zero could have had a string of faulty dacs manufactured. Who knows? But the barrage of mods being done by everyone, clearly muddied the water (oxymoron intended) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 How many "saved face" at the expensive of chipping away ZEROs name? I for one now openly admit (a few posts back) to being way to harsh toward the manufacturer before I had all the facts. For that I apologize. I'll end this long post by saying that looking back there was excitement for the original ZERO (much like the Compass is enjoying today). It and modding it was contagious. Nearly everyone rode the wave. Many of the less technically savvy simply went along with the masses. It wasn't until the honeymoon was over that some of these mods choices were looked at a bit more objectively. There are some here today who question aspects of those mods. I for one prefer stability. I would ask, does each modification (not only taken separately but collectively) add or take away from the stability of a product (known to have questionably thermal design and cheap soldering\joints etc). I don't believe many could show that their dac after modifications ran cooler and were more stable. I think SQ improvement is suspect as well. Placebo effect could be happening here. Mods discovered to have changed the sound characteristics is not necessary the same as improving on the sound. Besides how many newly proud mothers feel their offspring is ugly or would actually admit it.


----------



## WLC-1989

Does anyone know how this device would compare to the following:

 Compass
 Pico
 Xonar ST/X

 Thanks!


----------



## blawhh

id guess alot worse


----------



## G~mann

*WLC-1989 *

 Many say that the Compass build and sq is much better, particularly the headamp.


----------



## ScottieB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*WLC-1989 *

 Many say that the Compass build and sq is much better, particularly the headamp._

 

This is very very true, but the compass is also a good amount more expensive.


----------



## WLC-1989

This is my dilemma. If we put the Compass aside for a moment, and consider these 3 in a more sensible price range:

 Zero '09
 Pico
 Xonar ST/X

 Does the Zero, as a dedicated desktop DAC/amp stand out as the best choice in terms of SQ? I am more keen to get an external device, though not at the expense of possible sound quality. Does anyone here have experience of the Xonar ST/X and the Zero?

 Any comments are appreciated!


----------



## G~mann

*WLC-1989* How do you plan to use it? Primary with headphones? What equipment will your source be? How much do you value portability? I faced the exact same choice, Zero 09 vs Xonar STX vs the more expensive Compass. Lao and others here helped me put this choice into perspective. I believe for me with discrete opamps I could tweak the ZERO's sound signature more to my liking, warm and tubelike. This would sound great using the ZERO's line-outs. Many say the ZERO headamp is really bad and that not much modding can fix it. Now for nearly the same price the Xonar STX has very respectable sQ via lineout in addition to swappable opamps. I am not certain that I would be able to tweak it's sound to as great of an extent. But I may not need to. The Xonar also have a very nice headamp. It can output 5.1 dolby digital via S/pdif or to digital speakers. Though the Xonar is not as portable as the ZERO.
 Food for thought. I'll stop here since your main question was toward those who have heard both and can comment on the sound quality of each.

 G~mann


----------



## laobrasuca

WLC-1989, the real major general concern about the zero is the build quality. If you compare separately the build quality, DAC performance and AMP performance, the build quality is by far the thing that differentiates more the zero from the compass and stx. While the stx use a very impressive card design, caps and other crucial components (the basic I/V opamp are replaceable) and the compass is very well designed, very well soldered and also use nice audio components, volume pot and etc, the zero has been severely criticized due to its not so refined solder pads, components (caps, mostly) and design. At the same time, it costs only 100$, so you can't really expect to see high grade components everywhere, while the stx cost 170$ without AC/DC transform and case and the compass 330$. The second greater difference will probably the AMP section, where the compass should perform the best of the 3 mainly when amping a high impedance headphone. About the DAC, well, I'd say the zero really does a good job, really. With some weeks of use I can say you have a clear difference compared to the onboard pc solution. I would say the DAC is the closest thing the zero has compared to the other two, even if the other two shall do a better job, specially the stx (with opamps improved). 

 Me, I've chosen the zero, matter of money and the fact that the stx is not a solution to me (i got a laptop). If I had a bit more of money (ok, the double 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), I would take the compass, to be completely honest with you. With all people talking about zero malfunction problems I was a bit worried to take one... But them it came out this new version, so I decided to give it a try. After all, I can improve slowly but surely the amp section by buying an dedicated amp solution when I grow up and have a good salary 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 For me, it's better to buy a not expensive solution now and learn about how to listen the music, understand how a cheap dac+amp compare to a built-in pc solution, get familiarized with the components, etc. than stay here in the forum only reading the reviews and trying to imagining how it could sound and simply wasting time while I could enjoy more of my music with a modest but better solution.

 Just one more thing, if you are not an audiophile, do not delude yourself with the commends of the people here, not everyone can hear the same things or have the same taste or know how to compare and what makes the difference between different audio equipments. You can be just as amazed as frustrated if you rely to much on the experience of other people (eg, read this thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/can...ne-amp-425548/).

 lao


----------



## WLC-1989

Thanks so much for your in-depth replies. In my current price range, it seems then I'll need to choose specifically between the Zero and the Xonar ST/X.

 While an external device appeals to me more, I guess I'm going to have to wait for a direct comparison of the STX and Zero's amp. My primary PC is a desktop, so I'll probably end up picking whichever has the best SQ, despite portability.


----------



## AudioPhewl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Caution! - very long post ahead. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*
*@ Phewl* I have some reservations about the ZERO dac failures. How many of the original ZERO's failure were due to mods? I was real hard on the manufacturer of zero several post back due to recent quality issues. Come to find out one of the apparent problems was due to user's mistake. He coulda "saved face" but came back and openly admitted his mistake. How many others actions (modding) caused the early demise of their ZERO._

 

I've had experience first-hand of three units:-

 1. Modded, still going strong.
 2. Standard. Dead.
 3. Modded. Dead.

 Going over the modded but dead one, I couldn't find any problems with the work I'd done(keep in mind here that I've done PCB-level repair on laptops and mobile phones, though we're going back 6-10 years...).

 The standard dead unit had a problem with either the solder on the DAC or the traces to the output section, and was DOA - and I was shafted by the seller(possibly the first to be ripped-off by Lawrence?). The modded dead unit either had poor solder to the DAC, or problems with the traces to it.

 The modded unit, I ordered a replacement DAC IC, but lifted two traces when removing it. They are extremely thin, and aren't really designed to be desoldered at all IMO.

 ~Phewl.


----------



## G~mann

*~Phewl*,
 Don't think that I am questioning your experience or your skills. My statements were not toward any one person or any one particular mod. I believe that the original dac did have quality issues. I just saying that those same quality issues may be the reason why it could not withstand some of the mods being done to it. For much of the same reasons you've listed above.


----------



## blawhh

still has quality issues?


----------



## wynshad12

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *blawhh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_still has quality issues?_

 






 yes it dose! but at that price point.? one could still try a little tweaking ? 
 that been said..(@Phewl thanks for the your reply on the AKG-White -k701 as i really needed that information.)

 about the new 09 zero dac/usb/hp-amp-----it have been burning that thing for the last three weeks plus- use age 20% computer 80% my hi fi rig set up... note.....I'M just looking to get what the ZERO has to offer...AS IS..
 no MODDEN/MODDED/UPGRADE period. my only concern with this guy is the ANALOG OUT & HP OUT it is a some what harsh" and over bearing to some degree "which has me thinking" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 what would this unit SQ be like using headphones with say 250--600 ohm's such as beyerdynamics senn 600,650 and so on 
 through the headphone out... @G~mann @Lao any thoughts on that idea
 Wyn.


----------



## G~mann

I couldn't tell you since I've never heard the Zero. I am curious which opamp you have?


----------



## wynshad12

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *G~mann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I couldn't tell you since I've never heard the Zero. I am curious which opamp you have?_

 

well ? not sure myself as yet as i never open it up" but i did bought it on idea that it was the (OPA627) BECAUSE THATS WHAT EBAY SELLER (SNOW") ADVERTISED? (the manual said it used CS8416 as decoder,ad1852 as digital- to analog conversion,....AND OPA2406 OR OPA627! AS OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS... the USB chips - PCM2704,1.1/16BITS/48khz 
 Wyn.


----------



## WLC-1989

I'd also like to know the difference between the OPA2406 and OPA627, and why both versions of the Zero are offered on eBay for the same price.


----------



## laobrasuca

same price?


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wynshad12* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what would this unit SQ be like using headphones with say 250--600 ohm's such as beyerdynamics senn 600,650 and so on 
 through the headphone out... @G~mann @Lao any thoughts on that idea
 Wyn._

 

well, I can't tell much about it since it is the first headamp I use... I can tell you it is ok, but I was expecting more improvements compared to the build-in audio. I wish I'd have a separate amp to use the RCA out and compare it.

 lao


----------



## G~mann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WLC-1989* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd also like to know the difference between the OPA2406 and OPA627, and why both versions of the Zero are offered on eBay for the same price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

*WLC-1989,*

 I don't believe the 09 ZERO with identical specs are the same price. But the OPA2406 with USB is the same price as the OPA627 without USB.

 G~mann


----------



## WLC-1989

Ah that would explain it. What sort of improvement would the OPA627 offer over the OPA2406?

 #EDIT#

 I just checked eBay, and it seems both the OPA627 and OPA2406 versions are USB, Zero 09s. Both are the same price. Any ideas why they would be offering the 627 for the same price if it is supposedly better?


----------



## JamesL

I'd be careful of those opa627's. Bout 85% of the ones sold on ebay are confirmed to be counterfeit, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the manufacturer/distributor knowingly or unknowingly landed a bunch of them to use as well. For some reason.. I don't think they purchased it off Digikey or directly from TI, considering it's about 1/3 the price of the entire unit.


----------



## bbbretzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_same price?_

 

strange....

 I've always seen a (little) difference between the 2 versions


----------



## wynshad12

NEW Edifier Hall HA11 Headphone Amplifier @ 5532 Design

 (this is another one of snow_48 EBay seller effort) it looks like the creek obh-11 in gold colour and a little twist!....... i was just curious! has anyone seen this ?Wyn


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *wynshad12* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_NEW Edifier Hall HA11 Headphone Amplifier @ 5532 Design

 (this is another one of snow_48 EBay seller effort) it looks like the creek obh-11 in gold colour and a little twist!....... i was just curious! has anyone seen this ?Wyn_

 

it's all I found around here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/edi...l-ha11-412257/
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f42/ic...lifier-175990/

 Myself, I've never heard of it (but it not means too much)

 lao


----------



## wynshad12

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices 

 @lao...do a search for (Edifier HA11 Headphone amplifier) in the URL above ...to see if it pops up' its $74.00 bucks shipped, it catches my eyes because it looks like the creek obh-11!
 Wyn.


----------



## G~mann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WLC-1989* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is my dilemma. If we put the Compass aside for a moment, and consider these 3 in a more sensible price range:

 Zero '09
 Pico
 Xonar ST/X

 Does the Zero, as a dedicated desktop DAC/amp stand out as the best choice in terms of SQ? I am more keen to get an external device, though not at the expense of possible sound quality. Does anyone here have experience of the Xonar ST/X and the Zero?

 Any comments are appreciated! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I just received the Xonar Essence STX today. I've only used the headphone amp so far. I simply love the sound. I swapped the 2114Ds with the 49720s opamps in the headphone amp. I've heard that the 49720 require a bit of burn-in but they sound great so far. The sound is very clear, detailed. Bass tight. Although I would not describe the sound as warm. It's more like neutral but this could be because of the phones I'm using. They are the Senn HD 280 Pros. They do not sound harsh like they do with the 0404 usb. Just very defined with great separation. I am very pleased so far. It's late right now, I will have to try the main analog and dd 7.1 outs during decent hours although once I complete my other pc setup I will be using this card primarily as for headphone and 2.1 computer speaker outs. I've only listened to a dozen songs from 3 albums so far. As the souncard continues to burn-in and the newness and excitement of this recent purchase wears off maybe I will have a more objective outlook.


----------



## haloxt

Never get opa627/637 off ebay even if it is priced close to retail price, way too many counterfeits and ebay protects those sellers. Get it off digikey or newark. I got ten opa637's and tested them as counterfeit then asked ebay if I could send it to the manufacturer for testing and other things to verify they were counterfeit and ebay outright refused to remove the counterfeits sold by a seller no matter what I tried.


----------



## NiToNi

My Zero '09 (with OPA627 + USB) has burned in for about 50 hours (over S/PDIF) now. First listening impressions (Wadia 170i Transport + Senns HD650) are not that favourable. 

 When I increase the gain to the point where my headphones are adequately driven and the volume level is satisfactory (i.e. normal listening levels; I have normal hearing for a 37-year old and am no SPL or bass head), the noise level is quite noticeable, making the music emerge from a white-ish rather than black background. This is definately a function of gain and kicks in j-u-s-t at the volume point where the HD650's (300 ohm) are coming alive (bummer!), at least to these ears.

 But even more seriously, I think the amp is distorting at this level, at least on the dynamic peaks. However, I need to listen a bit more (than the quick listen I had before rushing off to work this morning) before I can say (conclusively) that this is the case.

*EDIT:* Back home from work and have had another quick listen (30 min). The distorsion is less obvious now. I will need to check everything (connections etc + more various tracks) before I can attribute this to the amp. 

 I should mention that I run both the Wadia and the Zero through a PS Audio Duet. S/PDIF cable is Stereovox XV2. HD650 not recabled. All gear (except for the Zero) well burnt-in.

 I wonder if this is a symptom of the manufacturer using counterfeit OPA627's. I think I have some OPA627's lying around (that I have bought from a reputable dealer) that I could try perhaps. I doubt this is the reason however. If I were to try only one of the discrete OP-amps (Earth, Moon, Sun), which one would be your recommendation (with the HD650)? This will be a second HP system so I will not fool around with a lot of OP-amp rolling or spend any more money on it really...

 I will also try with different headphones (Shure 530, Koss Porta Pro, AKG K1000, and soon, HD800) to see how they interact with the amp.


----------



## WLC-1989

Thanks for the replies, guys! I look forward to hearing how your STX burns in, G~Mann, and I would appreciate it if you would try the OPA627s you have, NiToNi. If there's a difference, I think we can all rest assured that they are selling fakes.


----------



## NiToNi

No I don't think that is a fair conclusion at this stage. Someone (like haloxt) need to check that out with proper equipment. I can only make a swap (later) for what I know are genuine OPA627's.


----------



## haloxt

A multimeter works

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/fak...ml#post4243931


----------



## bbbretzel

I've just replace the op amps of my Zero DAC '09....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've put 1 LT1469 in place of the (surely fake) dual OPA627AU in the DAC board and I've put 2x LME49860 in place of the 2x LT1364 of the Headphone board.

 I've pushed the power button and...... It's really great !!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the sound is better defined and very detailed. very different than the first config !!!!
 bass is here but they're not agressive or boomy, it sounds warm and clear at any frequency !!!
 a really great improvement for me !!


----------



## G~mann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WLC-1989* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the replies, guys! I look forward to hearing how your STX burns in, G~Mann, and I would appreciate it if you would try the OPA627s you have, NiToNi. If there's a difference, I think we can all rest assured that they are selling fakes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I am really liking the sound of the STX. As for burn-in, 5+ hours via RCA Analog outs and 30+ hours via headphones (6 hrs actual listening). I immediately installed the 49720NA in the headamp so I cannot really compare it to the stock opamps. I definately prefer the headamp to anything I currently have (EMU 0404 USB or Onkyo 705 receiver) But I do not know yet if the rca analog outs are clearly better than the digital out (HDMI or S/PDIF) I used previously with the 705. The more I listen the more I can relate to the audio terms thrown around to describe sound signatures. The STX appears to be very detailed, have a wide soundstage, but slightly laid back in the vocal area. Although bass is tight and controlled but somewhat recessed. Remember this is with the 49720s installed. The beauty of swappable opamps is that you can tailor the sound to your system, music or general listening preference. The Onkyo 705's dac seems a bit warmer with slightly greater bass. Maybe I'll become accustom to it much like I have at not cranking up the bass and treble controls years back. Anyway, it's much too soon to make any definitive conclusions. I am still exploring and trying to make sense of what I'm hearing. Because of my listening environment I will likely always use the headphone outs more than the mains. I haven't posted earlier because it feel a little out of place (off topic) discussing the Essence STX in this here thread. One of the original questions was "How does the STX sound compared to the Zero?" I found one poster in the Essence ST/STX thread who stated that he preferred the STX over his Zero with Earth HDAM. Although sound choice is not much difference from ice cream. Everyone has their own preference and even that is often influence by mood and may change from time to time.


----------



## NiToNi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WLC-1989* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would appreciate it if you would try the OPA627s you have, NiToNi. If there's a difference, I think we can all rest assured that they are selling fakes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have now tried the amp with a few different OP-amps. First of all, it was not equipped with OPA627's in the first place (so much for paying extra for that). Not even an attempt at fake ones.

 Then I have tried with both OPA627 (3 different pairs) and OPA604 (one pair) and... the amp doesn't work with any of them. I have no idea why that is the case. Does anyone else have clue?


----------



## G~mann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NiToNi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have now tried the amp with a few different OP-amps. First of all, it was not equipped with OPA627's in the first place (so much for paying extra for that). Not even an attempt at fake ones.

 Then I have tried with both OPA627 (3 different pairs) and OPA604 (one pair) and... the amp doesn't work with any of them. I have no idea why that is the case. Does anyone else have clue?_

 

The OPA627 and OPA604 are both single channel chips requiring a BrownDog adapter to work in the Zero. Chip orientation is also vital (circle indention indicates pin 1).


----------



## Bencrest

Now I'm worried...

 I pulled the trigger on the new 2009 model earlier, specifically fitted with the OPA627...

 I'm worried because I've not researched the Zero for ages, but remember the praise they got last time I looked (about a year ago?) - now I'm reading about all of these units dying on people? :O

 Also I've since read about these fake OPA627 - 

 Is there an easy way to check if the opamp chip is fake, just by looking at it?

 I'd love to trust the person I've bought it from - but it is an eBay unit, and despite paying a premium for it to be fitted with the 627, I'm worried - and it's not even due to be here for another week!


----------



## haloxt

In the previous page I gave a link on how to find out with a multimeter.


----------



## Bencrest

Well, I guess I will have to buy a multi-meter then. Need a new soldering iron too so sure I can get a good deal locally!
 I shouldn't worry really, but wish I'd found this thread sooner - didn't show up in my search as it's in the AMPLIFIER category, when I'm pretty sure it's a DAC foremost, with cheap amp bolted on. That, and the forum search engine doesn't like the word ZERO - too common apparently!


----------



## haloxt

yeah that "too common" thing is annoying, if I have to find something that falls under that category I use a search engine searching within specific domains.


----------



## jtam

Why don't we just buy an OPA2604 model and install an OPA-Moon/Sun/Earth on our own. The OPA2604 model is $30 cheaper than the OPA627USB one anyway...


----------



## jc_lbc

I just bought a Zero because I need something that amplifies in my office that I don't feel the need to lock up every day (I had an ipod stolen by cleaning people once) and this seems like a reasonably inexpensive solution that should sound plenty good out of the iMac I have to listen with. I got the 2604 version thinking I'll just replace the op-amp with some other flavor... is there a thread with general recommendations for this particular unit? I did a few searches and didn't find anything specific.


----------



## damsonlee

I just received my 09 Zero with USB and OPA627. I tried using it as preamp for my Pioneer receiver but heard some cracking noise from the speakers. No such noise when preamp is turned off. Did anyone experience this problem? Or is it the problem with my speakers?


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jc_lbc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just bought a Zero because I need something that amplifies in my office that I don't feel the need to lock up every day (I had an ipod stolen by cleaning people once) and this seems like a reasonably inexpensive solution that should sound plenty good out of the iMac I have to listen with. I got the 2604 version thinking I'll just replace the op-amp with some other flavor... is there a thread with general recommendations for this particular unit? I did a few searches and didn't find anything specific._

 

for the new version I only see this thread as well. What kind of recommendation are you talking about?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *damsonlee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just received my 09 Zero with USB and OPA627. I tried using it as preamp for my Pioneer receiver but heard some cracking noise from the speakers. No such noise when preamp is turned off. Did anyone experience this problem? Or is it the problem with my speakers?_

 

The only cracking noise I heard is when I stop playing, e.g., music from the source (in my case, a laptop computer, optical cable) and some seconds after (maybe 30 or 40 secs) I head the cracking (very thin) sound whose volume depends on the volume of the zero. Not sure what it is about but it is a little annoying. I was a little worried about whether it harm the integrity of my headphones, but so far, nothing alarming. Anyways, I took the habit of turn the volume knob "off" when stop playing music, so no more cracking noise. What about you, in what circumstances you got the cracking noise?

 lao


----------



## damsonlee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only cracking noise I heard is when I stop playing, e.g., music from the source (in my case, a laptop computer, optical cable) and some seconds after (maybe 30 or 40 secs) I head the cracking (very thin) sound whose volume depends on the volume of the zero. Not sure what it is about but it is a little annoying. I was a little worried about whether it harm the integrity of my headphones, but so far, nothing alarming. Anyways, I took the habit of turn the volume knob "off" when stop playing music, so no more cracking noise. What about you, in what circumstances you got the cracking noise?

 lao_

 

I hook the Zero DAC to Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Notebook in my laptop computer using optical cable and to Pioneer receiver using RCA lineout. The cracking noise happens when Zero is set in Preamp mode with volume knob turned to be above 12 o'clock. Below 12 o'clock I don't hear any change on sound when I swith between phone and preamp mode. So, at low volume no noise certainly. But it makes no sense if I can only use it at low volume and don't hear any change on sound.

 I also tried connecting with USB. Same problem with the preamp turned on. Also tried different music and player and even speakers.


----------



## colinharding

I don't know if anybody else had these problems with the HDAM units, but I guess its just another quirk with the DAC. They lasted, and sounded great, for about 10 hours and then the right channel would develop a huge amount of distortion. I could change to all different op amps and never had the same problem. It only occurred with the HDAM's. Same thing happened in the headamp section. Beats me....


----------



## mplee79

Where was this thread yesterday when i hit the paynow button on ebay =(


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *damsonlee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hook the Zero DAC to Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Notebook in my laptop computer using optical cable and to Pioneer receiver using RCA lineout. The cracking noise happens when Zero is set in Preamp mode with volume knob turned to be above 12 o'clock. Below 12 o'clock I don't hear any change on sound when I swith between phone and preamp mode. So, at low volume no noise certainly. But it makes no sense if I can only use it at low volume and don't hear any change on sound.

 I also tried connecting with USB. Same problem with the preamp turned on. Also tried different music and player and even speakers._

 

I've already tested the preamp (RCA outputting to a 2.1 auto-powered speaker) and had no noise (maybe only the one I described in my last post). Just remember that the preamp and the headphone amp are activated at the same way, ie, pressing the phone bottom, so, do you hear the same noise when connecting only the headphone (unplug the RCA out)? If you don't have the same noise with the headphones, there is a small chance that it is the receiver who's cracking for some reason. Did you test using another receiver or amplifier or speaker?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colinharding* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know if anybody else had these problems with the HDAM units, but I guess its just another quirk with the DAC. They lasted, and sounded great, for about 10 hours and then the right channel would develop a huge amount of distortion. I could change to all different op amps and never had the same problem. It only occurred with the HDAM's. Same thing happened in the headamp section. Beats me...._

 

Are you using the ground cable? Is it connected to he ground pins of the zero's pcb (in the screws)?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mplee79* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where was this thread yesterday when i hit the paynow button on ebay =(_

 

so far these problems seem to be more annoying than worrying, but let's hope your unit will have no problem at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 lao


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Those hearing crackling/noise using the head amp section....

 Check to make sure the ground wire to the pot casing is there, number 1, and if it is, that is has a solid solder joint to the pot casing....see the pic...also make sure the opamps are oriented properly and fully seated in the DIP8 sockets. If there is no ground wire present then you'll need to add one. 24 gauge solid core copper or whatever you have on hand should suffice. You'll have to clean the pot casing and rough it up (a bit) before attempting to solder the wire to it...(so it will have a solid connection that will stay put). If you have a wire there already and it's lose just re flow the solder so that adheres to the pot again.







 That pot in the pic is the upgraded Alps stepped unit. Hope this helps a little.

 Peete.


----------



## Bencrest

Well, mine arrived earlier, from eBay seller ' coolfungadget ' - and so far I'm very impressed!

 I was expecting it to arrive DOA, and thought it was broken when I connected it to my Xbox and just got huge amounts of digital noise (clicking)... turns out that I hadn't set my Xbox to digital stereo - now it's fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Infact, it's a very substantial improvement over my old setup (taking the phonos from the Component lead, converting them to 3.5mm and plugging into a Fiio E5)... only played a bit of Fallout 3, but there is quite a bit more detail.

 I've ordered the DAC with the OPA627 setup, although I've not opened it up to check that's what I've received. I'm not wanting to open it at all, just in case it winds up faulty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Very happy though, definitely seems to add a bit more definition, especially in the treble area, which brightens my Alessandro MS2i up a bit - but not to the point where they are fatiguing. Cymbals are definitely more prominent, but not obtrusive.

 Fingers crossed I get plenty more happy listening from it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh, mine is the USB version as well. USB seems to work fine, will set up some proper software with ASIO drivers and have a play with it later.


----------



## damsonlee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've already tested the preamp (RCA outputting to a 2.1 auto-powered speaker) and had no noise (maybe only the one I described in my last post). Just remember that the preamp and the headphone amp are activated at the same way, ie, pressing the phone bottom, so, do you hear the same noise when connecting only the headphone (unplug the RCA out)? If you don't have the same noise with the headphones, there is a small chance that it is the receiver who's cracking for some reason. Did you test using another receiver or amplifier or speaker?

 lao_

 

I have contacted the seller (he is really very nice and professional) and did some diagnosis following his instruction and found it is the problem with the OPAMP627 chip. When I took off the 627 chip, the noise disappeared. The seller is going to send me a replacement chip.


----------



## laobrasuca

@Bencrest: just remember that the USB input is limited to 16bits/44.1kHz. I don't know at what resolution/frequency the audio part of Xbox games is created, but if it is something more detailed than this, it would be better to use either the coaxial or the optical input.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *damsonlee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have contacted the seller (he is really very nice and professional) and did some diagnosis following his instruction and found it is the problem with the OPAMP627 chip. When I took off the 627 chip, the noise disappeared. The seller is going to send me a replacement chip._

 

oh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yet another reason to believe that those OPA627 are fake. Definitively a thing to be taken into account by the new buyers.

 lao


----------



## damsonlee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_oh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yet another reason to believe that those OPA627 are fake. Definitively a thing to be taken into account by the new buyers.

 lao_

 

Exactly! I knew all those bad things about the ZERO but still thought the 09 version could be better. I was wrong


----------



## WLC-1989

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *damsonlee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Exactly! I knew all those bad things about the ZERO but still thought the 09 version could be better. I was wrong 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Out of interest, did you ever get that replacement chip, and was it the genuine article this time? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've finally decided that I need to get an external DAC/amp, and the Zero is the best in my price range. My dilemma now is whether I should get the basic 09 version or get the 627 version and cross my fingers...


----------



## coolfungadget

Thanks for the positive comment.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bencrest* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, mine arrived earlier, from eBay seller ' coolfungadget ' - and so far I'm very impressed!

 I was expecting it to arrive DOA, and thought it was broken when I connected it to my Xbox and just got huge amounts of digital noise (clicking)... turns out that I hadn't set my Xbox to digital stereo - now it's fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Infact, it's a very substantial improvement over my old setup (taking the phonos from the Component lead, converting them to 3.5mm and plugging into a Fiio E5)... only played a bit of Fallout 3, but there is quite a bit more detail.

 I've ordered the DAC with the OPA627 setup, although I've not opened it up to check that's what I've received. I'm not wanting to open it at all, just in case it winds up faulty 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Very happy though, definitely seems to add a bit more definition, especially in the treble area, which brightens my Alessandro MS2i up a bit - but not to the point where they are fatiguing. Cymbals are definitely more prominent, but not obtrusive.

 Fingers crossed I get plenty more happy listening from it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh, mine is the USB version as well. USB seems to work fine, will set up some proper software with ASIO drivers and have a play with it later._


----------



## damsonlee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WLC-1989* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Out of interest, did you ever get that replacement chip, and was it the genuine article this time? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've finally decided that I need to get an external DAC/amp, and the Zero is the best in my price range. My dilemma now is whether I should get the basic 09 version or get the 627 version and cross my fingers... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Not yet. The seller said it may take 5-6 business days from Hongkong to Canada. Should be arriving soon.


----------



## garson

Is OPA627 in Zero 09 Edition fake? If it is, maybe it's better to buy version with OPA2604 (if it isn't fake 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## bbbretzel

it may be a solution.....


----------



## WLC-1989

While damsonlee waits to find out if the new OPA267s are real, can anyone with a OPA2604 Zero confirm whether they too are fake/real?


----------



## mplee79

Dude, it does not matter. Trust me when i tell you that you'll be changing it. I can guarantee you that you will. The opamps are dirt cheap to purchase from the actual makers such as Linear Technology $3.00-4.00 

 Opamp627 is not the end of the road in terms of quality. There are many that cost just a few dollars that are just as good in sound quality. Plus, you can get them for free by asking for samples. 

 It's very easy to change, you pull out the old one and drop a new one in. 

 If i had to do it all over again, i would've just picked up the cheapest Zero that I could and got different opamps. There is a huge list of amazing opamp combinations on the first page of the Zero review.


----------



## mplee79

There's absolutely no point in wondering whether not you're receiving a fake opamp or not. Let's face the facts, you probably are. 

 To avoid this inevitable reality, just get the base unit and place real ones in. 

 I purchased the opa627 and if they were fake, well, i never tested it. It sounded decent.

 I changed it already...to a different and better one.


----------



## mplee79

Everyone interested in the Zero should first read:

Introduction to the Zero DAC and Headphone amplifier. - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

 It is a very good article by Currawang about what the zero can and can not do for you.


----------



## WLC-1989

Ok guys, thanks for your advice. I'll go ahead and buy the basic one and upgrade it myself.

 Good luck with your purchases, fingers crossed you don't have to change them!


----------



## haloxt

On page twelve I linked a way to test for fake opa627/637's. And yes the majority of them from unauthorized dealers are fakes, there is no reason to buy opa627/637 from them. Because if they cost 80% off retail they obviously did not come from the manufacturer, and if they cost close to retail price it could easily be a scam to make you think it is legitimate (very likely on ebay). Don't take the chance and just buy it from digikey or newark or another authorized dealer.


----------



## damsonlee

I have received the replacement OPA627 from the seller. My ZERO now sounds really good to my untrained ears. The cracking noise disappeared. I don't know whether or not the new one is fake. But I don't bother as long as it sounds good.


----------



## mplee79

Hey Damson. What kind of music do you typically listen to? Do you have the Zero hooked up to another amp or just straight from the headphone out? 

 Who did you buy the unit from?


----------



## Currawong

If it sounds good, they probably aren't fake. The 627's are rather warm-sounding.

 If they work in the Zero and sound good, the best bang-for-the-buck is the LME49720 dual OPA. You can get 3 as samples from Linear Tech. The old favourites, the LM4562 are very good too.


----------



## mplee79

can you put the same opamp in both the dac and headphone sections?


----------



## damsonlee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mplee79* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Damson. What kind of music do you typically listen to? Do you have the Zero hooked up to another amp or just straight from the headphone out? 

 Who did you buy the unit from?_

 

Most of the time I listen to relaxing music (New Age) and some Hi-Fi reference dics including all kinds of music. I have the Zero hooked to a receiver via optical toslink. Also listened straight through the headphone out. Both are good enough for me. The sound is very warm and I like it.

 I bought it from wsz0304 on ebay.


----------



## coolfungadget

I measured 4 OPA627s from my '09 ZERO DACs. Results are attached...


----------



## garson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I measured 4 OPA627s from my '09 ZERO DACs. Results are attached..._

 

Can anyone comment these results?


----------



## bbbretzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *garson* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can anyone comment these results? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

see there : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/fak...37/index7.html


----------



## crapback

I just picked up an '09 and I'm pretty impressed for a $160 purchase. It comes with 627's in the dac and I rolled the headamp opamps with some 4562's for the moment. It's funny, the booklet in the box says that it comes with either the 2604's or the 627's but the ebay listing says 627's. Glad I didn't get the 2604's. TI isn't giving out free samples of the 627's. 

 I hope this thing doesn't go poof on me. If it lasts I'd definitely say it was worth the money. I just wish my first few hours with it weren't in the back of an idling bigrig. It's really hard to make out the bass detail on my 650's with the low rumble of a big diesel.


----------



## garson

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crapback* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just picked up an '09 and I'm pretty impressed for a $160 purchase. It comes with 627's in the dac and I rolled the headamp opamps with some 4562's for the moment. It's funny, the booklet in the box says that it comes with either the 2604's or the 627's but the ebay listing says 627's. Glad I didn't get the 2604's. TI isn't giving out free samples of the 627's. _

 

There is also 09 Edition with OPA2604, it's 7$ cheaper.

09 NEW VERSION ZERO 24/192KHZ DAC HEAD AMP @USB OPA2604 - eBay (item 120433096321 end time Sep-08-09 15:27:52 PDT)


----------



## crapback

Another question for fellow zero owners. Did your 09 come with a bunch of elna and rubycon caps in it? I'm going to do the frankenzero mod and i bought nichicon muse caps for the whole thing. Plus a bunch of different box caps to experiment with. 

 I didn't look to see what kind of caps were in mine before I bought the muses. I was going by the pics in the frankenzero thread. Well, it'll be fun to fiddle with it even if the caps aren't really much of an upgrade if at all. There are still a few cheapos on there to swap out.


----------



## jzono1

How does the zero work for switching between builtin headphone amp & line output? Is there a switch, or are both active at the same time? I'm looking at the zero for using it with both headphones and a speaker setup attached at the same time, would that work well?


----------



## higo

Hi!!! Greetings from Argentina!!! This is my first post.
 A couple of days ago I recieved the 09 version. The first thing that I have to do is changing the volume pot, ´cause is unbalanced at low levels...very noticeable indeed...what do You think of this item??? Will it fit??

DACT Type 21 Stepped Attenuator Potentiometer 100K 2A3 - eBay (item 120471954152 end time Sep-27-09 14:56:18 PDT)

 Other point is to change the OP, ´cause in the Amp section I have JRC082D. I already order samples of LME49860MA from National.
 Any advice will be appreciated.
 Thanks a lot!!!
 Marcelo


----------



## crapback

Welcome to head-fi Marcelo.

 Congratulations. You just cost me another $27. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I purchased a dac from gigawork on ebay before and he seems to be a reputable seller. A $10 stepped attenuator seems way too good to be true but it has to be better than the cheap crap volume pot that comes stock in the zero. I guess I'll found out in a week or two.


----------



## higo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *crapback* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Welcome to head-fi Marcelo.

 Congratulations. You just cost me another $27. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I purchased a dac from gigawork on ebay before and he seems to be a reputable seller. A $5 stepped attenuator seems way too good to be true but it has to be better than the cheap crap volume pot that comes stock in the zero. I guess I'll found out in a week or two. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Dont´mention it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
 Thanks for the welcome!!!
 Off Topic: Did You buy this DAC?

High Grade 24bit/192khz DAC with fully assembled kits - eBay (item 120471853019 end time Sep-27-09 11:20:25 PDT)

 I want to giving a try. A need something for the office...What´s your opinion..Is worth It? or Is it not a big deal??
 Thanks
 Marcelo


----------



## crapback

The DAC I bought still has the pictures of the original gigawork version. Gigawork 24/192 Up-sampling DAC DA CONVERTER w/ USB kit - eBay (item 120471864056 end time Sep-27-09 11:37:16 PDT) I'm not that knowledgeable about electronics but that DAC you linked to looks like an upgrade of the one I bought. I can only imagine that separating the power supply and analog sections improve the performance over the old single pcb design. I never did pick up a case for mine so I haven't spent that much time listening with it. It did sound pretty good though.


----------



## levin

just a few quick questions

 has anyone changed their opamps to HDAM? if so do you only change in the DAC area, the headphone amp area or both. currently i have ordered one of each HDAM off audio gd and awaiting for my 2009 verison to arrive

 second question is, how do you ground the HDAM. i read that people grounding at the RCA and some people do it at the volume pot. If possible someone can take a picture of how their HDAM is currently hooked in. so i can have a look as a reference. i have also read that some people use alligator clips. do they ground at the same area?

 thanks

 l-


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *levin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just a few quick questions

 has anyone changed their opamps to HDAM? if so do you only change in the DAC area, the headphone amp area or both. currently i have ordered one of each HDAM off audio gd and awaiting for my 2009 verison to arrive

 second question is, how do you ground the HDAM. i read that people grounding at the RCA and some people do it at the volume pot. If possible someone can take a picture of how their HDAM is currently hooked in. so i can have a look as a reference. i have also read that some people use alligator clips. do they ground at the same area?

 thanks

 l-_

 

There's a GND point on the board of the '09 new Zero. Grounding is very easy.


----------



## levin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a GND point on the board of the '09 new Zero. Grounding is very easy._

 

does the grounding require to solder to the pcb? or is it a clip


----------



## crapback

Here is a pic of how I put three earth's in my zero. Mine came with ring connectors soldered on already. I used some of the plastic packaging from a weller solder pump as the insulation for the modules. I will have to take some more pics when my new $10 stepped attenuators show up. I'm going to swap all the petp bypass caps for pio's like in the real frankenzero mod as well. If you don't need to have the cover on your zero like I do you can always just stack some of these 8-pin DIP IC Socket high enough for the hdams to clear the caps on the amp.


----------



## levin

that's quite cool crapback 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i'll look forward to seeing some more pictures of your zero setup. i can't wait to get mine. EMS shipping site doesn't keep up to date like other parcel company. dam dodgy china shipping


----------



## crapback

Thanks levin. One thing to be aware of is the location of the ground screw next to the dac opamp socket. You have to be careful to make sure the ring connector doesn't touch those other parts near it. There is not much clearance there at all as in a millimeter at most. 

 If you are into modding stuff, or learning like I am you should check out this thread. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/fra...-heart-370985/
 Most of the changes have already been made to the '09 version but they don't add the bypass caps which make a huge improvement. 

 EMS has been weird with the stuff i've had shipped by them. It usually arrives in the US before their site updates.


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *levin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does the grounding require to solder to the pcb? or is it a clip_

 

a screw


----------



## levin

hehehe i don't have the heart to take apart the dac/amp and re-solder new parts yet. i'll give it a few months first before i start to take it apart and replace them. for now the easy opamp change to HDAM will do


----------



## FraGGleR

At stock, how far behind is the Zero from the Compass? With the HDAM switch out, how much closer does it get? Can it run some of the better cans well (K701, HD650, BT880 range)? Trying to decide between the Zero and the Aune since the Compass is out of my price range.

 Thanks!


----------



## levin

FraGGleR to be honest from what people have been writing about in previous threads about Zero DAC comparison to Compass, the compass comes up top. its quite hard to say because its not in the same price range or even in the same product range as you would say. from what i have been reading the DAC Compass comes with better build than the Zero DAC. then again spending about 200 bucks on this and add another 30usd per HDAM should be a decent upgrade (i hope to opamp roll when i receive mine) or i think wsz on ebay does the dual opamp version. or there's a lawrance version with the DAC and Headphone opamp changed for you


----------



## crapback

The zero even at stock has no problem driving my 650's or my 990's. I can't turn it up past about the 9 o'clock position before it gets too loud for me. As for comparison to a compass, I'd have to say that even with three earth's, petp bypass caps and most of the frankenzero mods already done on my '09, the compass just sounds better. My modded zero doesn't sound bad at all either. I think it sounds pretty sweet for what i've invested.

 I spent some time just rolling opamps and thought I had found the best combo for me with an AD797brz in the dac and two LT1361's in the amp. I wanted to hear some hdams so I ordered some and slapped the earth's in the zero. They made a huge improvement with better dynamics, bass detail, instrument separation and a much more natural soundstage than I could hear with IC opamps. 

 I have a lot to learn about modding so the zero seemed like a nice cheap piece to start with and I've had fun playing around with it so I think it's worth the price of admission.
 It's not a good way to avoid upgraditis though.


----------



## Xtreme3X

Hello everyone! Just got myself a Zero DAC 2009 edition. Btw i connecting this to my PC using the USB. But i can't seems to adjust volume through my windows volume control.. I'm only able to control the volume through my speaker control pod. Is that normal?


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xtreme3X* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello everyone! Just got myself a Zero DAC 2009 edition. Btw i connecting this to my PC using the USB. But i can't seems to adjust volume through my windows volume control.. I'm only able to control the volume through my speaker control pod. Is that normal?_

 

Sounds normal.


----------



## Xtreme3X

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds normal._

 

Hmm how come the volume can't be controlled over at the windows control side? Previously i using an Styleaudio DAC USB, volume can be changed using windows tho.

 Got another question! Going to get an OPA-Moon, the extension lead cables are needed for Zero DAC right? 

 Can't decide between OPA-Moon or OPA-Earth.. Heard OPA-Earth signature is more to neutral, how about OPA-Moon? I'm looking for more to the vocals side and lesser bass. Which one should i get?

 Thanks in advance


----------



## higo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xtreme3X* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello everyone! Just got myself a Zero DAC 2009 edition. Btw i connecting this to my PC using the USB. But i can't seems to adjust volume through my windows volume control.. I'm only able to control the volume through my speaker control pod. Is that normal?_

 

If You want to control the volume through control panel, You have to disable the preamp section. Doing this, the zero will work only like a DAC. You have to press the preamp button.


----------



## bbbretzel

I've just put my brand new HDAM OPA MOON into the DAC section of my Zero and I'm wondering what is the best combination of opamp in the headphones section with the MOON ???
 I'm sure you've tried a million of combinations, but can you give me some advice ?


----------



## Xtreme3X

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *higo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If You want to control the volume through control panel, You have to disable the preamp section. Doing this, the zero will work only like a DAC. You have to press the preamp button._

 

Hmm i'm using preamp mode off i think? (No light from the preamp). I tried pressing the preamp button (Green lights turn on). I now can control the volume through Zero control pod, but i still can't control the volume using windows tho..


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xtreme3X* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm how come the volume can't be controlled over at the windows control side? Previously i using an Styleaudio DAC USB, volume can be changed using windows tho.

 Got another question! Going to get an OPA-Moon, the extension lead cables are needed for Zero DAC right? 

 Can't decide between OPA-Moon or OPA-Earth.. Heard OPA-Earth signature is more to neutral, how about OPA-Moon? I'm looking for more to the vocals side and lesser bass. Which one should i get?

 Thanks in advance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Definitely Moon.


----------



## bbbretzel

I haven't heard the earth or the Sun v2 but I'm very satisfied with my OPA-Moon in the DAC section + 2 LM4562 in the headphones section ;o)
 I try to find the good combination with the opa-moon (I'm pretty sure that everybody think 2xOPA627BP...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) but nobody here can tell me... 2 posts in 2 different topics, but NO REPLY...


----------



## levin

got my 2009 version today. i am surprised it was delivered because its a public holiday ;o will listen to it for a while and see how it ranks with my stx


----------



## levin

quite a few things arrived today when i got home from work
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 my HDAM earth sun and moon arrived and also my samples from Linear Technology LT1364CN8.

 will put up some pics after dinner of my setup

 edit






 here's the picture

 i think the LT1364CN8 isn't what i am after so i put back the JRC opamps zero comes with


----------



## _Spanky_

I see a lot of people commenting on the Zero being $160+, is anyone aware of it being $135?
ã€09 ZERO DACã€‘24/192KHZ DAC@HEAD AMP@OPA2604 high-quali - eBay (item 110438856081 end time Oct-02-09 11:38:50 PDT)

 For that price, I'm seriously thinking about it now. I ordered some sample opamps a while back (LT1364 + LM4562) I think and I'm kinda getting anxious to try them. My concern is that will it be a worth-while upgrade in my sig setup? I would use the digital out of my X-Fi and use the Zero to drive my DT770's. Thoughts anyone?


----------



## levin

the price difference is the different opamp it comes in. 2x opa627 on browndog adaptor than a op2604


----------



## _Spanky_

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *levin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 the price difference is the different opamp it comes in. 2x opa627 on browndog adaptor than a op2604_

 

wsz0304 sells the unit for $135 shipped to the US. For $18 extra you can get the OPA627 upgrade. Just thought I'd let people know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway... Bump for below question 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *-Spanky-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My concern is that will it be a worth-while upgrade in my sig setup? I would use the digital out of my X-Fi and use the Zero to drive my DT770's. Thoughts anyone?_


----------



## levin

i got mine through him anyway.


----------



## bbbretzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *levin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 i got mine through him anyway._

 

me too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I'm pretty sure that the dual OPA627s are fake...


----------



## _Spanky_

You should test them and if they are let him know. He's a nice guy, maybe he'll send you real ones. Maybe these sellers don't even know they have fakes.


----------



## bbbretzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *-Spanky-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should test them and if they are let him know. He's a nice guy_

 

yes, he is. my zero was HS in about 2 months and he told me that I just have to send back mine to have a new one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (it has cost me about 40$ to send it back to China from France and 40$ more of VAT tax when I received the new one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )....

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *-Spanky-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Maybe these sellers don't even know they have fakes._

 

I'm pretty sure he Knows..... but it's the game.... We all know here the real price of a dual opa627's chip


----------



## Currawong

You can't be Chinese and not know that just about everything available in China is fake. ***, ALL OF NEC IN CHINA WAS FAKE! Billions of dollars of industry. Even the factory owners that made the gear didn't know they were making it for a fake NEC entity. 

 Anyway, back on topic: Your choice of HDAM in the DAC + LT1364s in the headamp is probably best. I liked the LM4562 as well back when I had a Zero. It's a fun little unit, the Zero. Pity about the crap reliability, but that's what you get for cheap.


----------



## Graphicism

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a fun little unit, the Zero. Pity about the crap reliability, but that's what you get for cheap._

 

What are these reliability issues I keep hearing about... are they from the get go or something that develops over time? I have had no problems whatsoever with my Zero that I bought used... I like to recommend the Zero to people looking for a cheap combo but don't want to recommend something that might blow up?


----------



## bbbretzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Graphicism* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What are these reliability issues I keep hearing about... are they from the get go or something that develops over time? I have had no problems whatsoever with my Zero that I bought used... I like to recommend the Zero to people looking for a cheap combo but don't want to recommend something that might blow up?_

 

for the price, sure it's a very very interesting unit !


----------



## levin

everyone has to start somewhere. i guess this unit is a good place to start before you spend more money and start digging a big black hole in your wallet


----------



## bbbretzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *levin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 everyone has to start somewhere. i guess this unit is a good place to start before you spend more money and start digging a big black hole in your wallet_

 

+1


----------



## Graphicism

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *levin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 everyone has to start somewhere. i guess this unit is a good place to start before you spend more money and start digging a big black hole in your wallet_

 

I've had more 'expensive' amps in the past but have yet found anything better than the Zero.


----------



## ttan98

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can't be Chinese and not know that just about everything available in China is fake. .....

 Pity about the crap reliability, but that's what you get for cheap._

 

everything in China is fake, how can you make sweeping statement like that, how can you so sure? just guessing.

 Pity crap reliability....., Are you sure? another sweeping statement. I heard the recent reliability problem was solved already.

 It is always very easy to criticize, can you personally/your organization take criticisms. You can criticize when your known facts are accurate, and don't do it for sake of doing it or for your own gain.

 I bought many parts(components, DAC, radios,head and speakers amplifiers) from China all of them worked very well, none failed. I believe there are some parts that are fake I don't believe ALL of them are fakes. During post war Japan many of their products are copies, and similarly the components they manufactured, are they doing this now, NO. It will take at least another 5-10yrs for the Chinese to reduce copying to a minimun.


----------



## bbbretzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttan98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_everything in China is fake, how can you make sweeping statement like that, how can you so sure? just guessing.

 Pity crap reliability....., Are you sure? another sweeping statement. I heard the recent reliability problem was solved already.

 It is always very easy to criticize, can you personally/your organization take criticisms. You can criticize when your known facts are accurate, and don't do it for sake of doing it or for your own gain.

 I bought many parts(components, DAC, radios,head and speakers amplifiers) from China all of them worked very well, none failed. I believe there are some parts that are fake I don't believe ALL of them are fakes. During post war Japan many of their products are copies, and similarly the components they manufactured, are they doing this now, NO. It will take at least another 5-10yrs for the Chinese to reduce copying to a minimun._

 

I'm affraid when I see the inscription behind all the Marantz products I sell.... "Made in China..."


----------



## MomijiTMO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttan98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_everything in China is fake, how can you make sweeping statement like that, how can you so sure? just guessing._

 

Mate I hear even the people in China are fake! Amazing huh.

 As for this nice entry puddle of audio and reliability, I think it's pretty hit and miss. Far too many misses for my liking but you can always get something better. .. for more money.


----------



## Mr C

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttan98* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_everything in China is fake, how can you make sweeping statement like that, how can you so sure? just guessing._

 

One day got to the music street in Shanghai (sort of the economic capital in china) its called Jingling. Thats a street full of instruments/ guitar shops.
 You'll find thousands of guitars, not one of them is real, the sellers dont even try to hide it.

 Everything in china is not fake, everything that is valuable is copied.


----------



## haloxt

Counterfeit opa627 opa637 can be extremely profitable, take generic opamps and sell them for $10+ a pop. But someone tested the opamps sold in conjunction with the zero and said it passed the resistance test. There are other tests, but if it sounds good and passes this test it is probably authentic.

 And it's important to distinguish between counterfeits that simply strip away the cost of the brand logo and counterfeits that deliberately rip people off and give them dysfunctional goods. There will always be a large amount of both types of counterfeits from China because they are the manufacturing base of the world and the economy invites such things. Well-constructed counterfeit purses have value, fake opamps are just scams.


----------



## levin

more opamps arrived today! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thank god for samples!


----------



## garson

There are Single and Dual OPA versions of OPA Moon/Earth/Sun on Audio-gd website. Which type (Single or Dual) is suitable for Zero DAC?


----------



## levin

mmm i am currently using dual channel versions. i am not sure if anyone uses single versions in their zero.


----------



## _Spanky_

You need to use the Dual. That's why they make the (correct me if I'm wrong) brown dog adapter for the OPA627 because it's a Single. I don't think singles will work at all by themselves in the Zero.


----------



## bbbretzel

As the opamps, all the Hdam OPA used in the Zero must be DUAL


----------



## garson

Thanks guys for clarification.


----------



## orca1993

I've had two zero's for over a year and one has had the sudden death issue.
 Ordered a replacement mainboard from Wang and he sent me the new '09 mainboard. This board requires a 9 pin connector to the front control panel and the old board used a 7 pin connector. I've tried to contact Wang to get the proper control parts, but I have had no reply. Would it be possible to mod the old front control panel to work with the new mainboard?
 Any help would be appreciated.
 Thank you
 orca1993


----------



## WLC-1989

Finally going to go ahead and order this... What is the consensus regarding eBay sellers? I.e. which is generally perceived to be the most reputable, and most likely to provide genuine OPA627s?


----------



## _Spanky_

wsz0304 seems to be really good. I e-mailed him some questions and he was prompt and nice. Cheapest price too. I asked him about fake OPA627 and if he tests them and he said he did but take that with a grain of salt if you will. If I end up buying a Zero, it will be from him.


----------



## crapback

I bought mine from coolfungadget and he was excellent to do business with. I am having an issue with the output jack and emailed him to see if he could sell me a replacement part. He actually recommended I contact wsz034 about it as he doesn't deal with replacement parts himself. 

 I won't personally recommend one over the other but I've heard nothing but good things about both and my personal experience with coolfungadget has been everything I could ask for.


----------



## Xtreme3X

Hi guys! My opa-moon finally came! But after a few run the opa-moon became very hot and added a lot more heat to the DAC.

 So i have decided to remove the headphone amp part to reduce the heat inside the dac.

 But i have a couple of question regarding the removal. Anyway here it goes
is the Zero DAC safe to use without the headphone amp part?
are the headphone part needed for the DAC?
will removing of this result in lost of quality etc?

 Thanks all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Below here's the picture without the headphone amp


----------



## coolfungadget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xtreme3X* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys! My opa-moon finally came! But after a few run the opa-moon became very hot and added a lot more heat to the DAC.

 So i have decided to remove the headphone amp part to reduce the heat inside the dac.

 But i have a couple of question regarding the removal. Anyway here it goes
is the Zero DAC safe to use without the headphone amp part?
are the headphone part needed for the DAC?
will removing of this result in lost of quality etc?

 Thanks all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Below here's the picture without the headphone amp



_

 

1. Yes. Don't turn on the pre-amp.
 2. Not necessarily.
 3. No.


----------



## Xtreme3X

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *coolfungadget* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1. Yes. Don't turn on the pre-amp.
 2. Not necessarily.
 3. No._

 

Wooooo coolfungadget thanks for clearing my doubt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh ya i got another question.. after removing the headphone amp part, i feel thats there is more bass? Is it placebo effect haha..


----------



## Mr C

Hmm i'm still hesistating between this fellow and the head direct ef2. Just received my hd580 so I feel the need for an amp and dac growing inside my ears.


----------



## kimbo

I am also watching this thread with interest. I'm pretty keen to buy a 09 Zero as a Chrissy present (for myself of course!) in a month or so, so I'm very interested to see if anyone has reliability issues. From the other threads about the original Zero, it appears that there were some issues, although I suspect that many of these may be due to users tinkering.....not that I don't do a bit of this myself. 

 Presumably any problems may have been fixed in the updated O9 version.

 Perhaps it is too early for any problems to surface?


----------



## Currawong

I think the price would have to have gone up significantly for them to upgrade the quality of the board to make it more reliable.


----------



## kimbo

Hmm....wishfull thinking on my part I suppose...


----------



## levin

no issues here yet... tho i am very interested in the compass... probably will take a look at that in a few months time and sell off my Zero


----------



## kimbo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *levin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 no issues here yet... tho i am very interested in the compass... probably will take a look at that in a few months time and sell off my Zero_

 

hi Levin, what issues do you have with the Zero that makes you keen to upgrade to the compass......I know the compass is higher spec, but presumably the zero doesn't 'do it' for you? Just curious.....


----------



## Uri Cohen

Going to order this from coolfungadget, we'll see how this will work.


----------



## boomy3555

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HyperDuel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Going to order this from coolfungadget, we'll see how this will work._

 

Did you pull the trigger?

 I'm on the fence. I have the EF2 and Maverick Tube Magic right now but I heard the Compass "The Moon" at a recent meet and the Zero with
 "The Earth" OPamp is making my mouth water. Especially at the prices on eBay right now.


----------



## crapback

It sounds really sweet with 3 earth's and some k40y9's as bypass caps on all the electrolytics. I would also recommend swapping the volume pot for one of these. DACT Type 21 Stepped Attenuator Potentiometer 100K 2A3 - eBay (item 120471954152 end time Sep-27-09 14:56:18 PDT)


----------



## SRG

I'am very interesting in Zero DAC, because very good price. But not sure, if that DAC is will be good for my headphones. I have Beyerdynamic DT770 PRO/80 (80 om). And Creative X-Fi Titanium PCIe (SB0880) as sound source. Was anybody test Zero with DT770 80 om? Any noise, enough power? Or need search anything other?


----------



## SRG

And there are many models of zero on ebay: OPA2604, OPA627, OPA627U, 2604U. What deferents between them? And what the best?


----------



## alex98uk

Well, I just pulled the trigger on the '09 version, hopefully those past issues are fixed. Anyone here got an '09 Zero running? Any issues?

 It will simply act as a DAC to pass through to my Little Dot MK III.


----------



## boomy3555

Mine is in Customs in San Francisco as of today. I too will use it as a DAC to my HeadDirect EF2 for that "Tube Flavour", I have it coming with the "Earth" HDAM, but I hope to roll some HDAM's through it to try and get that "Tubie" feel from a Solid State. Hopefully I can get close to the Compass while still saving a bit of scratch.


 FTI: I got mine from "coolfungadget"


----------



## alex98uk

I got mine from "snow48_6", although there were only 2 UK ebay retailers, him and "CoolFunGadget". The latter only had 352 feedback whilst Snow had 1416 and was registered as a business seller. Comes with the OP2604 and USB, so about the same price as CoolFunGadget.

 I suspect any problems would have been fixed by now and i'd be surprised if the EU test centers that they had to submit a prototype to didn't check issues with past models. Companies quite often have to make failure rates known to testers.

 It says I have the 1 year warranty, so fingers crossed, we're all good to go and my horrible capacitor interference from my graphics card is dismissed (I am going to use optical).


----------



## backtofront001

wait, how do u use just the DAC section of the Zero? Does the 3rd light (green) under phone need to be on or off?


----------



## boomy3555

I just recieved mine and I can't get the headphone out to work. My PC auto-recognized the "USB Audio DAC" and the sound is quite nice and smooth through the pre-amo section running RCA to the RCA inputs of the EF2) but I get no sound from the headphone jack. I reviewed the instructions and although the english translation was not the best, I understood the process as pressing button #4 ( Phone/Preamp ) once and the light should turn red ( Although mine is either green or nothing) and when lit, the volume control knob will adjust the volume of the pre-amp as well as the headphone out. plugging in the headphones should disconnect the preamp in this "on" setting.in the "Off" position the volume is set at a default level through the preamp RCA outs. I suspect that the headphone section is at least connected as there is a very loud pop when plugging or unplugging the cans while the unit is powered up.

 any suggestions???


----------



## crapback

To listen through your headphones the phone light should be green I believe. Did you switch the digital input? IIRC, the default setting out of the box is not usb. It just figures that when I want to answer a question like this, my zero is at home.


----------



## boomy3555

Thanks for jumping in to help. I bought the USB installed version as well as the "Earth" HDAM also already installed. I first assumed that the USB was activated from the seller as my PC recognized it and installed it automatically but then when I read the instructions on how to activate the USB if I had ordered it as a seperate upgrade component, I decided to power the unit down, power it up again and press and hold the MUTE button as instructed to activate the USB. I toggled back and forth between the on and off options for the USB but still no heaphone out. I have email Jeffrey at collfungadget but as he is 16 hrs ahead I don't expect an answer until after the weekend. I am currently enjoying the wonderful sound through the RCA out to the EF2 so all is well for now.


----------



## boomy3555

I recieved an email from Jeffrey at coolfugadget. He aknowledged my problem and asked me to open up the case to inspect for any damage during shipment. Upon opening the case I found the three wire plug from the headphone amp section to the main board had been dislodged during shipment. It was simply a matter of plugging it back in and the amp works GREAT!!. The instructions erroniously state that the Phone/Pre-amp light should light red when in fact it is a green light. Other than that we're ALL SET. Audio impressions to follow after I get a chance to do some A/B'ing with the EF2 and my Memory of the Maverick Tube Magic.


----------



## crapback

If you really want to make your zero sing swap out the stock volume pot for one of these. DACT Type 21 Stepped Attenuator Potentiometer 100K 2A3 - eBay (item 120471954152 end time Sep-27-09 14:56:18 PDT) Then add some of these as bypass caps. 200V / 0,068uF / 10% PIO K40Y-9 Capacitor [CAPS] - $0.29 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce I also swapped the evox bypass caps on the opa-earth with some of the k40y9's.


----------



## Uri Cohen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *boomy3555* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you pull the trigger?_

 

Nope, terrible build quality like you are experiencing right now is the reason why I'm staying away from it.


----------



## boomy3555

I don't think that a plug coming undone during shipping all the way from China is a big deal. If I had twice the price, I would have gone for the Comapss but so far I'm feeling really good about this little guy. There is just a minor difference between the 'Earth" OPA headphon out and running pre-out to my Mullard tubed EF2. I've steered away from Solid State because once you go tubes, it's hard to go back but hearing the Comapss at a meet made me give this guy a try. I got it for 190.00 shipped including the Earth upgrade so I definitely feel like I've gotten my monies worth.
 I'll probably use the EF2 as my "Go To" simply because all of my cans are easy to drive, but keep this Zero for future High Impedence Can purchases. If there was one thing I could say is lacking is the Analog inputs. It would be nice to have that as an option with a stand alone jack of Ipod Dock..


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Xtreme3X* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wooooo coolfungadget thanks for clearing my doubt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Oh ya i got another question.. after removing the headphone amp part, i feel thats there is more bass? Is it placebo effect haha.._

 

The AMP section of ZERO is not really good, really not, so it may be degrading the DAC output. Then, you change the AMP, the sound change likewise: you put a better AMP, you got a better sound; a worse AMP, a worse sound. What's the AMP you're using now?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alex98uk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I just pulled the trigger on the '09 version, hopefully those past issues are fixed. Anyone here got an '09 Zero running? Any issues?

 It will simply act as a DAC to pass through to my Little Dot MK III._

 

well, many people here in this thread have one, like me. Mine is running so far, no problem till here. 

 what about yours, did it already arrive? I'm planning to buy an external AMP, and the LD MK 3 is in my list. What are your impressions on this ZERO(DAC) + LD MK III (AMP) combo? Did you compare it to the zero stock combo (DAC+AMP, headphone output) ?

 lao


----------



## Graphicism

I concur, the stock ZERO specifically the amp is terrible in comparison to the upgrade opamp I use; it's loud and lacks body. I wouldn't use a LD MK III with my Zero as I prefer the amp to the much more expensive Singlepower PPX3, you'd be going from energetic and detailed to a more veiled, less detailed sound of the tube.


----------



## alex98uk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what about yours, did it already arrive? I'm planning to buy an external AMP, and the LD MK 3 is in my list. What are your impressions on this ZERO(DAC) + LD MK III (AMP) combo? Did you compare it to the zero stock combo (DAC+AMP, headphone output) ?

 lao_

 

It's shipped and should arrive in the next few days I guess. Hopefully it will cut the static I was getting straight from my Xonar to MKIII (the only reason I bought the DAC).

 Next step is some Beyrdynamic DT770's


----------



## laobrasuca

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alex98uk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's shipped and should arrive in the next few days I guess. Hopefully it will cut the static I was getting straight from my Xonar to MKIII (the only reason I bought the DAC).

 Next step is some Beyrdynamic DT770's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

nothing yet?


----------



## maxxwizard

i bought the 2009 version Zero (OPA2604) from coolfungadget a couple of months ago. i immediately put LT1364 in the DAC and LT1469 in the AMP. i realized the sound was really bright on the Grado SR80s. i then upgraded to beyerdynamic DT880s (600 ohm). the sound was still bright and not what i wanted.

 i really want a tube amp like a darkvoice, but seeing as i have no money, i decided to open it up and try opamp rolling. i switched the LT1364 out for a LT1361. the treble is less harsh and sibilant, the bass is punchier, and the midrange/soundstage opened up a little bit.

 i think i just may purchase the OPA-Moon HDAM (until i get enough money for a tube amp). this is a really cheap and fun unit to start out with though.

 my setup:
 creative audigy 2 value -> bitperfect optical -> zero -> DT880s


----------



## Matias

I bought a Zero 2009 from szclever88 and it is working fine.

 By the way, it sounds significantly better then the old model: larger soundstage, better dynamics.


----------



## _Spanky_

Just thought I would give a heads up to those who are unsure about the Zero's quality and are looking for something similar around that price range, there's a relatively new DAC out from Maverick Audio and they have a pre-order deal going on for the new model. Check out the thread here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/mav...ac-amp-446764/

 Their site:
Maverick Audio - Tube Magic D1 DAC + Headphone Amplifier + Tube PreAmp


----------



## wynshad12

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *laobrasuca* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nothing yet? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Lao, G~man, hey" just giving you guys a shot out" I see you guys still on the Tianyun 09 zero dac thread!! love this dac" hate this dac" the zero still rolls onn!!... as you just told (extream3x) that the amp sect. is not all that!

 your 100% right about that, OH mine is still strong <> 1 year now... IMHO" it makes a good Dac" I'll even go as far as saying a very" good Dac. I used it very hard like 20% computer (80% in main audio rig coaxial in analog out to my pre amp and i can tell you guys" that it rocks!! my infinity beta 50s really alive, I'm really happy with this 09 zero.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I used the headphone amp sometimes with my senn 650 & 600 when ever I'm too lazy to reach for my Creek" (the senn 600 hp is OK" with it ) that been said I think if zero owners gives it a chance before they started amp rolling "who knows"....... 

 i couldn't have done better with my $164.00.. Win.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

After looking this sucker over rather extensively the FrankenZERO mods can be done to this version as well, maybe a few parts less than the original unit although without testing one I can't be sure of that. Not a whole lot has changed from the original design that I can see (other than the obvious stuff)...just some better parts in some key spots and the addition of a USB module. 

 Peete.


----------



## jasonwc

I will soon be upgrading from my Grado SR-60 to Sennheiser HD-580's and I'm looking for a DAC/AMP combo to complement it. I've read many of the posts in this thread but I still have a few questions.

 The 2009 Zero is apparently quite a good DAC, but has been maligned as an amp. How is the Zero with the OPA267 opamp? In addition, while I've seen many complaints about quality control, there don't seem to be too many issues with the 2009 model specifically? Earlier in the thread, it appeared that the underlying issues weren't fixed, but I don't see any evidence of continued issues.

 Additionally, if anyone could compare the quality of the Zero's AMP and DAC to some other offerings, I would appreciate it. I'm also considering the Maverick D-1, the Aune HIFIDIY MK2 SE, the HiFiMAN EF2, and the uDAC.


----------



## wynshad12

jasonwc@quote
 The 2009 Zero is apparently quite a good DAC, but has been maligned as an amp. How is the Zero with the OPA267 opamp? In addition, while I've seen many complaints about quality control, there don't seem to be too many issues with the 2009 model specifically? Earlier in the thread, it appeared that the underlying 

 Jasonwc" i have the 09 Zero over a year now!! just one "caveats" the amp??!! its harsh/grating & abrasive and especially so when used with cans" in the 30 to 40 ohms area, (however it sounds ok with my hd-600 & 650 IMHO" after a year with the 09 zero) 

 that been said its good value" the dac" is very good,the usb" connection with the computer works like a charm simple plug & play, i used vista" i'm sorry i cant help you with the comparison to others.... my unit maybe has has the opa267 or 2604 it doesn't really make difference to me!! again I'm thinking its good value and I can live with it!! (as myself and others mentioned now and earlier in this thread the Amp could have been better) but that's it??!!


----------



## laobrasuca

hi people, hi wyn, how you doing boy? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yey, the ZERO 2009 still rocks the house! No issue at all so far, runs cool and smooth. I think the quality issue they have had with the first edition have been addressed with the changes they've made. Concerning the sound, can't say thou, since I've never used the old one, but compared to my motherboard's sound card, the Zero does improve performance. I can't say it's WOOOOOW changes, but a DJ friend of mine did it a try and he said the difference to it's macbook is remarkable. So, one of these: i'm too much exigent, i'm hearing deficient or my records do not allow me to judge of the quality of the equipment. Personally I think options 1 and 3 are true 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyways, i really do not feel like throwing 200$ by the window, I really do appreciate this equipment and i do recommend.

 Now I'm looking for an dedicated amp (tube one to my hd650) to see if things will improve. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 cheers you all,

 lao


----------



## Ultrazino

I got my Zero a few days ago and I can't believe how much they get out of the HFI-780! This is my first ever DAC/amp and I can't believe how I could enjoy my headphones for over one year prior to this purchase. These also significantly improve the sound quality - and especially soundstage - of the Zino!
  I paid € 80 for the OPA627 upgrade with USB, purchased directly from China. I had a family member bring them over. Quite a steal! Everything works perfectly fine and I can't complain about build quality at all. Only minor annoyance is the plop sound that comes out of the 'phones when turning it on or off. I hope it won't cause damage in the long run.
   
  The silver color perfectly matches my Ultrasones! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Here are some pics:


----------



## haloxt

The on/off transient won't damage the headphones if the pop doesn't sound too loud while wearing the headphones.


----------



## Ultrazino

Thanks!
  Good to know... I was getting tired of always unplugging the headphone first.


----------



## Intuvati

I just got my digital sources to transmit as bit-matched, etc etc and now i need to work on the volume issue. I really just need to replace the volume pot. Can someone tell me _which_ alps pot from ebay I need for my zero? i'm fairly sure i can figure out the soldering, but i'm pretty strapped for cash and just want a quick solution to the unbalanced signals when the knob is turned low.
  edit: also, from what i've heard, any pot with a blue box is a no-go for the zero... that kind of limits my choices, now doesn't it...


----------



## notoriousmatty

Anybody have any recent input on this DAC?  Im thinking about ordering this plus a Darkvoice or MK3 for my beyer 880s.


----------



## Intuvati

yes, actually. Right now, i'm using it with an OPA-MOON from audio-gd, and once burned-in, my goodness it is something to behold. that being said, the head-amp isn't all that excitement-worthy, but if you're using the pre-amp out, then there's no problem anyways. thats why i dont use the integrated head amp. so yes, this is a very good product sill, and also very inexpensive, and sounds beautiful once you replace the stock op-amps. the stock one sin't bad, but there are others. if you're technically inclined, then you can even do some other mods to make it better, but op-amp rolling the certainly the easiest improvement.


----------



## schmalgausen

Gents,
   
  Do we have reability statistics of 2009 version?  I am hestitating with it.


----------



## XxATOLxX

I just bought the 2009 Zero DAC with the USB connector and the OPA627 chip in it. The feel/look impressions are okay, the knob feels a little cheap and the unit I got has a slight ding on the top. These things however, I don't care about. When it comes to how it actually sounds, this unit sounds incredible and has no trouble driving my Sennheiser HD580's (300ohms). It's also very powerful as a headphone amp, I can't turn it past 1/4 of the way up without hurting myself.
   
   
   
  There is however one issue I am having a bit of trouble with and thought that you guys might be able to help me out: The left and right channels are backwards. I have it hooked up via USB port and have it feeding straight through from Foobar, so I'm thinking this is just a wiring problem? I flipped the L/R wires on my HD580's to fix it, but it's just nagging at me.


----------



## garson

Quote: 





schmalgausen said:


> Gents,
> 
> Do we have reability statistics of 2009 version?  I am hestitating with it.


 
  I have mine for almost year and a half, works great, no issues so far. I changed OPA627 for OPA Moon, really sounds great.


----------



## schmalgausen

Does anybody use Zero with orthodynamic or isodynamic phones? What about compatibility of headamp?


----------



## Mad Max

If you are interested in orthos, the Fostex T50RP is pretty efficient and should be fine with the Zero.  It needs modding - consider it a semi-DIY headphone.
  The better your gear, the better it will sound, however.


----------



## schmalgausen

Quote: 





mad max said:


> If you are interested in orthos, the Fostex T50RP is pretty efficient and should be fine with the Zero.


 


  I'm not interested, I'm already in.  TDS-5 and TDS-7 are the best items of my collection. But I have not good experience using TDS-5 (100 ohm) with the Semigor amp - this bunch didn't sound. However TDS-5 sounds quite good from Prodigy HD2 output.


----------



## Mad Max

That TDS-5 is seriously low sensitivity.  I'd try a speaker amp with that.  You may need to know how to solder in order to mod the speaker amp and/or build an appropriate adapter.  HLLY makes a nice budget speaker amp, then you plug the Zero's pre-amp output into that and control the volume with the Zero.
  I did not find the TDS-7's sensitivity with a quick search, but I'd probably try a speaker amp with that as well.


----------



## schmalgausen

Quote: 





mad max said:


> That TDS-5 is seriously low sensitivity.  I'd try a speaker amp with that.  You may need to know how to solder in order to mod the speaker amp and/or build an appropriate adapter.  HLLY makes a nice budget speaker amp, then you plug the Zero's pre-amp output into that and control the volume with the Zero.
> I did not find the TDS-7's sensitivity with a quick search, but I'd probably try a speaker amp with that as well.


 


  TDS-5 is USSR clone of Yamaha YH-1: http://wiki.faust3d.com/wiki/index.php?title=Yamaha_YH-1
  They have 100 Ohm imperdance and 96 dB sensivity. I have said that they plays from phone output of HD2 DE (JRC4580) quite good, but flabby from the Semigor amp: http://www.stereohead.ru/_articles/images/Sdelai_Sam/Semigor/Ushi1.gif
   
  I am not really expert in the circuit technology but I guess that the reason is voltage or current stabilization. How do you think what circuit is more closer to Zero?


----------



## Mad Max

Closer to Zero?  I don't know.
  I saw the wikiphonia article on the TDS-5 stating 91 sensitivity.  96 isn't as bad, but still low.  Zero might be able to handle 96 with 100ohm impedance, I think.


----------



## FlaviusV

I messed a little bit around with my Tianyun Zero because the OPA627 seemed a little bit harsh on my K701. Unfortunately i plugged the OPA adapter the wrong way back to the base plate (180 degrees switched - it was pretty dark in my room - no excuse anyway). Now sound is destorted and almost not audible. Do I have a chance to replace the OPA and get it working again? Or have I crashed the hole device? I am an amateur (who should have left the thing alone...) so I have only limited skills in measuring the ZERO  with a metering device .
   
  Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## ulfp

If you plug it the wrong way, quite likely that the OPA627 is "burnt". I have burnt a pair of OPA627 in a Phono pre-amps by putting the"adapter" the wrong way, and while the OPA failed, nothing else failed....
   
  Suggest you try to plug-in another OpAmp.


----------



## FlaviusV

Thanks for the answer. Just removed the adapter and the ZERO worked - although sound was a little bit muffled (otherwise the opamp wouldn't be necessary). But  no destortion and full amplification. Just ordered a new OPA627. Let's see...


----------



## turbo1

I've had my eye on the zero for a while because of it's price, but recently read many great things about audio gd's nfb-12. This would be my first DAC/amp so I was wondering if there is any significant difference between the two that would be apparent to someone new to this like me. BTW I'd use it with my HD650's and asus laptop.


----------



## andychen

Anyone has comment on this? Thanks
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *turbo1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I've had my eye on the zero for a while because of it's price, but recently read many great things about audio gd's nfb-12. This would be my first DAC/amp so I was wondering if there is any significant difference between the two that would be apparent to someone new to this like me. BTW I'd use it with my HD650's and asus laptop.


----------



## Graphicism

Quote: 





turbo1 said:


> I've had my eye on the zero for a while because of it's price, but recently read many great things about audio gd's nfb-12. This would be my first DAC/amp so I was wondering if there is any significant difference between the two that would be apparent to someone new to this like me. BTW I'd use it with my HD650's and asus laptop.


 

 Anything op-amp based is going to sound the same given they share the same chip.


----------



## WinstonOboogie

I finally found av weakness in the Tianyun DAC Zero 09 (OPA627). 
   
_If you're curious about the performance of your own system, the following samples contain a 30kHz and a 33kHz tone in a 24/96 WAV file, a longer version in a FLAC, some tri-tone warbles, and a normal song clip shifted up by 24kHz so that it's entirely in the ultrasonic range from 24kHz to 46kHz:_
   
_Intermod Tests:_
   
_30kHz tone + 33kHz tone (24 bit / 96kHz) [5 second WAV] _[30 second FLAC]
   
_26kHz - 48kHz warbling tones (24 bit / 96kHz) [10 second WAV]_
   
_26kHz - 96kHz warbling tones (24 bit / 192kHz) [10 second WAV]_
   
_Song clip shifted up by 24kHz (24 bit / 96kHz WAV) [10 second WAV]_
   
_(original version of above clip) (16 bit / 44.1kHz WAV)_
   
_Assuming your system is actually capable of full 96kHz playback, the above files should be completely silent with no audible noises, tones, whistles, clicks, or other sounds. If you hear anything, your system has a nonlinearity causing audible intermodulation of the ultrasonics. Be careful when increasing volume; running into digital or analog clipping, even soft clipping, will suddenly cause loud intermodulation tones._
   
_Source: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html_
   
  I hear noises in all the above tracks, noises that should have been filtered out by the DAC... 
   
  Because of this I have to restrict sample rate to 44.1 KHz in the software player (Audirvana+). If the DAC can't handle samplerates correctly, then the feature becomes pretty useless...


----------



## WiZLV

Tianyun Zero DAC 2009  is better than Yulong U100? is better than Asus STX?


----------

