# Most ridiculous tweak?



## sugarinthegourd

There are a lot of tweaks out there that fall under the heading of "ridiculous." (Remember the green markers you were supposed to use on the edges of your CDs to stop the light from getting out?)

 What's your favorite? I'll start the ball rolling with my nomination, a $485 wooden volume knob that:

  Quote:


 are custom made with beech wood and bronze where the bronze is used as the insert to mount to the stem of the volume pot. The beech wood is coated several times with C37 lacquer for best sound as pointed out by Dieter Ennemoser. How can this make a difference??? Well, hearing is believing as we always say. The sound becomes much more open and free flowing with a nice improvement in resolution. Dynamics are better and overall naturalness is improved.
 ...
 The point here is the micro vibrations created by the volume pots and knobs find their way into the delicate signal path and cause degradation (Bad vibrations equal bad sound). With the signature knobs micro vibrations from the C37 concept of wood, bronze and the lacquer itself compensate for the volume pots and provide (Good Vibrations) our ear/brain combination like to hear…way better sound!!


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## lisnalee

that price is absurd, how can they charge so much for a piece of wood that looks as if it came off the bottom of someones sofa.


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## badpenny

LMAO, I bet Patrick28 has a few of those suckers.


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## EnOYiN




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## earwicker7

Wow, this is hilarious... I was just getting ready to make a new post on a similar subject, so it seems like great minds think alike!

 So here comes my nomination... The Clever Clock.
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm

 I'm sorry, but you've got to be screwing kidding me! There is a mad bid going for one of these on Audiogon. Look, I'm more than willing to cross into "audio madness" territory and buy expensive power cords and isolation devices, but this is just frightening. Please send me your $199, I'll put it in the daughter's college education fund and have her do a voodoo dance in return... it's probably more likely to affect your sound.


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## sugarinthegourd

Ha! Soni-Crock is right!

 EDIT: OMG, I just followed the link to The Clever Clock, which appears to be a $5 Timex travel alarm with a day-glo sticker on its face, and their sister product, "Brilliant pebbles" which is a jar of small rocks that claims to make your stereo sound better when placed in the same room.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

 This is a joke right?

 Right??


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ha! Soni-Crock is right!

 EDIT: OMG, I just followed the link to The Clever Clock, which appears to be a $5 Timex travel alarm with a day-glo sticker on its face, and their sister product, "Brilliant pebbles" which is a jar of small rocks that claims to make your stereo sound better when placed in the same room.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

 This is a joke right?

 Right??_

 

Unfortunately, no. Check out the Audiogon bidding... http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc....845&1187816849


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## scompton

They also have $30 outlet covers and the best, the Teleportation Tweak. For $60, they'll send a signal over the phone lines that  Quote:


 excels in layering, texture, inner detail, air and that you-are-there presence of real music. Bonus: The picture quality of any video system in the house will also be improved! 
 

And you don't even have to have your equipment turned on


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## BradJudy

EnOYiN - you realize the SonicRock was created and posted as a parody of Machina Dynamica, right? One of the guys on AudioCircle did it. Unfortunately, AudioGon pulled his listing. Apparently you can only sell crazy tweaks if you do a good job pretending you believe in them (or actually believing in them).


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## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BradJudy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_EnOYiN - you realize the SonicRock was created and posted as a parody of Machina Dynamica, right? One of the guys on AudioCircle did it. Unfortunately, AudioGon pulled his listing. Apparently you can only sell crazy tweaks if you do a good job pretending you believe in them (or actually believing in them)._

 

I find it very hard to believe that they believe they can send a tweak over the telephone. Kind of reminds me of the old faith healer Earnest Angley who would have the TV audience at home touch the TV screen so he could heal them over the broadcast signal


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## sugarinthegourd

And the "teleportation tweak" apparently has "burn in time" associated with it, according to at least one reviewer! Hilarious...someone is clearly having a good laugh, though it's not clear that these tweaks are any more ridiculous than CD degaussers or $100+ power cables.


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## NightWoundsTime

Most Rediculous Tweak has to be tied to Most Rediculous Review of a Rediculous Tweak.

 This wins: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews...esonators.html

 Tiny blocks of wood with even tinier metal cups on top. 





 By far the greatest moment of 6Moons already incedibly awesome review was this picture, and the accompanying text. 

  Quote:









 But the strangest -- and for the likes of James Randi & Co. most nonsensical -- places to put a resonator was still to come. Franck asked where the refrigerator was. He placed a resonator inside on the bottom ledge. It took a few minutes and then the sound of the refrigerator was gone. No more buzzing. But another effect of the little resonator inside the closed fridge kicked in later. Thinking about air as the medium we breathe and listen to. The air inside a fridge is cold and thus has a different pressure potential. Cold air sinks to the bottom because it's heavier and denser. It appears that we notice the extra pressure emanating from the fridge. Call us crazy, all you naysayers, but until you experience it, keep your comments to yourselves.

 

Umm, free country, and my comments are that this is the stupidest thing I've ever read. "The sound of the fridge was gone." Umm, maybe perhaps the compressor shut off? 





 The car is tuned..... not kidding, that what he calls placing them under the hood.


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## earwicker7

I know that this is a common one--
http://www.shakti-innovations.com/hallograph.htm

 Here's my unscientific opinion on this one... this may actually work.

 Now I don't have these (don't need 'em, I'm headphone only) but I have had experience with something similar at work. I work for the Los Angeles Philharmonic, which plays most of their season at the recently built Walt Disney Concert Hall. Anyone into classical knows that this place has become famous for it's accoustics... you can literally hear someone wiggle in their seats from the opposite side of the hall. How does this relate to the above-mentioned product? Well, the inside of the hall has many obviously "accoustic areas" that look somewhat similar to these. This could just be a coincidence, but it does seem that the VERY highly paid accousticians who did a VERY good job seem to be thinking along the same lines.

 Just my uninformed two cents
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


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## ADD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's your favorite? I'll start the ball rolling with my nomination, a $485 wooden volume knob_

 


 Whilst the pricing is rediculous and the claims equally dubious, I am aware of at least a couple of headphone amps that might actually sound better with this knob - but only whilst the volume control is actually being turned. I know, for instance, that my Cute Beyond can have a tiny bit of static noise when the volume control is turned, however if I wear rubber gloves (which I don't as a matter of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), then there is no static at all.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NightWoundsTime* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most Rediculous Tweak has to be tied to Most Rediculous Review of a Rediculous Tweak.

 This wins: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews...esonators.html

 Tiny blocks of wood with even tinier metal cups on top. 





 By far the greatest moment of 6Moons already incedibly awesome review was this picture, and the accompanying text. 



 Umm, free country, and my comments are that this is the stupidest thing I've ever read. "The sound of the fridge was gone." Umm, maybe perhaps the compressor shut off? 





 The car is tuned..... not kidding, that what he calls placing them under the hood._

 

read about them too on other sites as well. They are for room accoustics but very expensive. But for some they seem to work.

 For that kind of money, i'd rather use tapestry etc.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are a lot of tweaks out there that fall under the heading of "ridiculous." (Remember the green markers you were supposed to use on the edges of your CDs to stop the light from getting out?)

 What's your favorite? I'll start the ball rolling with my nomination, a $485 wooden volume knob that:





_

 

485 dollars is robbery; anybody with the right tools could make such a knob for a few dollars.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the "teleportation tweak" apparently has "burn in time" associated with it, according to at least one reviewer! Hilarious...someone is clearly having a good laugh, though it's not clear that these tweaks are any more ridiculous than CD degaussers or $100+ power cables._

 

Actually, i use a degauser cd and it actually works, after the 3 minutes it sounds much better but in a week or so you'll have to do it again.


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## bigshot

Sounds like Chinese food!

 See ya
 Steve


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## sugarinthegourd

You know the problem with German food? It fills you up but then 30 minutes later you're hungry for power.

 About CD degaussers, I've never been able to figure out where the magnetic part of a CD is. Also, I get bit-perfect copies out of my CD-ROM drive using EAC. I am not sure how the degaussed bit-perfect copy is any better. Maybe the ones and zeros are a little bit bigger? A little sharper on the edges?

 [size=medium]0001000101010111000001[/size] (before)

 [size=large]0001000101010111000001[/size] (after)


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## epaludo

The wood knob has been posted before. But still an absurd. $485????? What a rip off ...


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About CD degaussers, I've never been able to figure out where the magnetic part of a CD is._

 

I think it's the steel plate in the skull of the person who buys into snake oil like this!

 See ya
 Steve


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## LawnGnome

The people who believe these things are absurd.

 It is amazing how people let themselves be ripped off because they choose to believe such crap.

 Why people that believe things that defy physics and logic amazes me.


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, i use a degauser cd and it actually works, after the 3 minutes it sounds much better but in a week or so you'll have to do it again._

 

I use the degausser on my PS Audio P500 power regenerator and it does work. Can't speak to the CD, but at least the degaussing principle seems sound.


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## Chu

Anything by machina-dynamica. The fact all their products get such glowing reviews on "trusted sites" really makes me question what is really driving the audiophile world 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Intellegent Box. Basically an LED inside a wood box for $400.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *6moons* 
_Because we still have no 100% explanation for how these light treatments work on the physical disc itself, we will keep searching for that elusive answer. In the meantime, zap away. That part isn't in question at all._

 

Brilliant Pebbles. A box of pebbles.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *6moons* 
_Think it over. Could be the best twenty nine bucks you spend this year. _

 

Clever Little Clock. This one is just insane. It's your average $10 electric alarm clock with a sticker on it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *positive-feedback* 
_Machina Dynamica sells the clock direct for $199, and it's well worth the price._

 

When this site first started it was an admitted parody. Even the very name is a play on blind faith!


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## sugarinthegourd

Quote:


 The fact all their products get such glowing reviews on "trusted sites" really makes me question what is really driving the audiophile world 
 

Thanks, Chu. I feel the same way. It's quite maddening. And the brilliant pebbles not only improve sound when placed in the room, they can be tied to speaker cables to improve their performance. 

 It's obviously, transparently a hoax, a joke (and a brilliant one) but it is taken quite seriously!

 I know all about a fool and his money soon parting, but I'm wondering how so many fools seem to have accumulated so much money in the first place!


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## Brian_the_King

Oh man, looking at these things stokes my hatred for humanity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quite funny that one would put so much money aside for one of these 'tweaks', rather than something else. I can think of millions of things I'd rather do with $1500 than buy a block of wood with a little bowl on top ; )


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## Chu

It's not what people do with their money, it's what want me to do with my money. As an example, I've been extremely interested in the HeadAmp GS-1 based on their work with Gillmore's designs. Small problem, the most quoted review is this one. The same site that tells me that buying a box with a LED in it for $400 is a fabulous deal.

 So what exactly does it mean when people who recommended the GS-1 point me there? Same with every conceivable headphone, HD650, Stax, G1000, they're all on there and referenced by people on this site all the time.


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## LawnGnome

Yeah, I wouldn't consider 6moons reputable at all. From the looks of the couple from 6moons, they appear to be wiccan, or some other beliefs that have alot of "magic" crap surrounding it.

 They hardly appear able to make a fair logical and scientific review, and their reviews themselves confirms it.


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## rsaavedra

Some of the most ridiculous tweaks I've seen:

The $485 wooden knob

Rainbow foil

Orange "intelligent" chip.

Bybee "quantum purifiers"


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I wouldn't consider 6moons reputable at all. From the looks of the couple from 6moons, they appear to be wiccan, or some other beliefs that have alot of "magic" crap surrounding it._

 

Spot on, my man! I lived in San Francisco for 8 years and was surrounded by Wiccans. It's amazing how uneducated educated people can be
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . There were vendors making a mint off of selling polished rocks to doctors and lawyers as "healing stones" or some other such nonsense. I actually really liked San Francisco, but the hippies came pretty close to ruining it for me.

 Los Angeles isn't much better, though. My company, in an obvious move to placate aging hipsters searching for the meaning of life, actually has an absence policy in which you can take as many sick days as you want if they are approved by an acupuncturist
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . The fact that I have to show up to work while someone else gets to stay home because their "chi" is off just infuriates me.


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## Chu

Now we're way off topic, but people who tend to advertise their religion tend to be "off." Back in college two friends of mine were wiccan but just didn't really advertise the fact. They ended up getting married and are doing pretty well out in society.

 As for them believing in "nonsense" I never really brought it up, because from a logical perspective it's really not that much more strange then believing in the god of Abraham once you take away the judgment of society.


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for them believing in "nonsense" I never really brought it up, because from a logical perspective it's really not that much more strange then believing in the god of Abraham once you take away the judgment of society._

 

That's why I'm agnostic. I believe there is a good chance there is a god, but don't know whether he looks like Jerry Garcia or a frog


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## Sovkiller

It is funny how by this same logic, many people find those tweaks absurd, becasue we can not find any scientific explantion, nor common sense to explain them (neither do I, so do not think that I'm on the opposite side), but OTOH you do beleive in others. Others that IMO carry the same load of BS, and lack the same way of scientific explanation/evidence as well. IF youl ook closer, some of those tweaks by the laws we know, and have now, that BTW, will be not too different IMO from the ones we will have in the next 20 from now, (as they have not changed in more than 50 years, so chances are that nobody will try to do it in the near or long term future) can not be explaned, and just because others had stated, they do hear differences...


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## sugarinthegourd

OMG

  Quote:


 It is also advantageous to place a strip of Silver Rainbow Foil specifically over the word 'disc' (part of the Compact Disc symbol).

 A strip of Silver Rainbow Foil should also be placed specifically over the number 33 1/3 rd or 45 which is usually printed on both labels of a vinyl record to indicate the speed. 
 

OK, this is a joke, right???


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## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is funny how by this same logic, many people find those tweaks absurd, becasue we can not find any scientific explantion, nor common sense to explain them (neither do I, so do not think that I'm on the opposite side), but OTOH you do beleive in others. Others that IMO carry the same load of BS, and lack the same way of scientific explanation/evidence as well. IF youl ook closer, some of those tweaks by the laws we know, and have now, that BTW, will be not too different IMO from the ones we will have in the next 20 from now, (as they have not changed in more than 50 years, so chances are that nobody will try to do it in the near or long term future) can not be explaned, and just because others had stated, they do hear differences... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

Occam's razor. The Tweak Works vs. Perceptial Distortion. We have a tool to get rid of this effect, it's called ABX. Unfortunately that topic is banned here, so, what can you do?


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Occam's razor. The Tweak Works vs. Perceptial Distortion. We have a tool to get rid of this effect, it's called ABX. Unfortunately that topic is banned here, so, what can you do?_

 

Just keep being skeptical in all those claims, till they are scientifically proved, instead of going and play the same game with those voodoo beleivers, and try to hear those differences due to those claimed non scientific tweaks, that in good margin are just due to placebo, or to due other circumstantial things...but whatever makes one happy is waht should matter to them...if you feel that a power cable works wonders, and that any equipment burn in is real, and that a capacitor needs 200 hours to perform its best, and that biwiring will benefit your speakers, and that an LP sounds better than a CD just because it is analog, disregarding all otherl imitations of the media, and that you can hear the jitter errors, but not the surface noise on an LP, and that tubes are better than SS, and, and, and...what else???? makes you happy, that is what counts....


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## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just keep being skeptical in all those claims, till they are scientifically proved, instead of going and play the same game with those voodoo beleivers, and try to hear those differences due to those claimed non scientific tweaks, that in good margin are just due to placebo, or to due other circumstantial things...but whatever makes one happy is waht should matter to them...if you feel that a power cable works wonders, and that any equipment burn in is real, and that a capacitor needs 200 hours to perform its best, and that biwiring will benefit your speakers, and that an LP sounds better than a CD just because it is analog, disregarding all otherl imitations of the media, and that you can hear the jitter errors, but not the surface noise on an LP, and that tubes are better than SS, and, and, and...what else???? makes you happy, that is what counts.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

We're talking about things that are scientifically disproven. A lot of these tweaks are thus completely outside of the realm of science, and in the realm of faith.


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## Chu

Actually, faith isn't even the right word. Science cannot comment on the existence of god because it's not a testable hypothesis. These tweaks are testable, it's just people don't like the results.


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We're talking about things that are scientifically disproven. A lot of these tweaks are thus completely outside of the realm of science, and in the realm of faith._

 

Some of the ones I mentioned above have also been disproven by science, and some people still insist in believing in them... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 I have noticed that in this snobophile world, errrr, I mean, audiophile world, sorry, while someone wants to beleive in something, there is no force in earth or scientific evidence good enough to convince them otherwise. Just see around in the few cases while the "banned test" have been implemented, all what the believers stated after (never before, just after the results offer something that they do not like) are the flaws of these tests, but they never come with a better solution for the test, nor to implement one to prove the opposite, of course not!!!! They believe in that and period, they do not need such an evidence, the rest to them are just so stupid, that are trying to prove it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....and this way they keep on believing what they want, and the rest that are looking for an answer will never see the light...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So why someone ask me my opinion about one of those controversial topics, I take into consideration if the person really wants to know about them, and wants a scientific explanation, or at least my honest point of view, of the phenomena in question, or if the person wants only to confirm what they beleive one more time. 
 In the first case I try to invest my time and try to explain them what they are looking for, the best way I know off, or at least give them my honest opinion in the subject, given my limited experience, but in the second case, I just play dumb and ignorant, as I will not waste my time in arguments...


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## tourmaline

What these blocks do is to block some resonance from your speakers to dampen some frequencies. it's for making your accoustics better in your listening room. It's the same princaple as the wood panels in studio's etc. You can do that too with tapestry and carpets on the floor and on the wall, even curtains will help.


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## sugarinthegourd

Quote:


 What these blocks do is to block some resonance from your speakers to dampen some frequencies. 
 

Yes, but they're about 1" tall. Please explain how they work and why Pt works better than Au works better than Ag works better than Cu.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, but they're about 1" tall. Please explain how they work and why Pt works better than Au works better than Ag works better than Cu._

 

Why don't you ask the maker of the things, much easier.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 oh end, you might do some research yourself, you always ask people to do that for you, i noticed!


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## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What these blocks do is to block some resonance from your speakers to dampen some frequencies. it's for making your accoustics better in your listening room. It's the same princaple as the wood panels in studio's etc. You can do that too with tapestry and carpets on the floor and on the wall, even curtains will help._

 

You're putting words into their mouth. A direct quote from their site:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioExotics.hk* 
_Its primary function is to tackle standing waves created by excessive bass energy_


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## john_deere_boy

It sounded ridiculous to me but my stoner friend in high school swore that a joint of Maui homegrown bud allowed him to go deeper into Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon at the local planetarium.


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## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you ask the maker of the things, much easier.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 oh end, you might do some research yourself, you always ask people to do that for you, i noticed!_

 

It's a valid question. By their own admission the purpose of the product is to cancel unwanted sounds. But then they go on to describe the beneficial acoustic properties of each metal.

 In other words, the beneficial acoustic properties of _sounds you don't hear_. It's ridiculous.


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## Spareribs

In my opinion, I would not critique a crazy tweek 'till I test it myself and hear the difference. 

 That said, a crazy high priced tweek may be riduclous but if you are rich and don't mind paying a high price tag for something that will give you peace of mind, even if it's silly, go for it. There are people who pay $400 for a hair cut and/or $13,000 for a hand bag. It's only money.


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## bhd812

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NightWoundsTime* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most Rediculous Tweak has to be tied to Most Rediculous Review of a Rediculous Tweak.

 This wins: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews...esonators.html

 Tiny blocks of wood with even tinier metal cups on top. 





 By far the greatest moment of 6Moons already incedibly awesome review was this picture, and the accompanying text. 



 Umm, free country, and my comments are that this is the stupidest thing I've ever read. "The sound of the fridge was gone." Umm, maybe perhaps the compressor shut off? 





 The car is tuned..... not kidding, that what he calls placing them under the hood._

 

actually this can very well work to some extent...
 i am not saying it will do much better or worse but given from what i learned personally off room acoustics this basic idea used here can very well have a sonic change to a room. 
 if i could i would love to have that dude do a demo on these in my room, hell if he offered a money back gurantee i would slap him $2000 to come over and set the the stuff up in my place.


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## Sovkiller

And IMO the worst thing is that a magazine like 6moons, and a reviewer like Srajan, wasted time trying to review that thing, and make us beleive on it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Everytime I see something like that in one magazine my next question is: would I really trust any review comming from them again...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... ???


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## bhd812

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And IMO the worst thing is that a magazine like 6moons, and a reviewer like Srajan, wasted time trying to review that thing, and make us beleive on it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Everytime I see something like that in one magazine my next question is: would I really trust any review comming from them again...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... ???_

 

Srajan is a cool reviewer the way he writes it, but lately the blowing north of ZU and red wine audio products got me thinking....

 anyway this is totally off topic...

 (no offense to the two companies metioned...)


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In other words, the beneficial acoustic properties of sounds you don't hear. It's ridiculous._

 

This is actually a basic principle of hi-fi, that what you don't hear is extremely important. For example, power supplies are often purchased for the sole reason of removing line noise. This line noise is rarely anything more than a whisper, but it's enough of a whisper that it can cover up low level details (for example, the decay of a cymbal might disappear into the "fuzz" a couple seconds before it actually disappears off of the source).

 I'm not saying whether this product is actually worth anything, but the principle in and of itself is not incorrect.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's a valid question. By their own admission the purpose of the product is to cancel unwanted sounds. But then they go on to describe the beneficial acoustic properties of each metal.

 In other words, the beneficial acoustic properties of sounds you don't hear. It's ridiculous._

 

No it isn't; sometimes too much bass is not pleasing, so by dampening the bass, it might sound better. Same thing as an engeneer does in a recording studio.

 But, i never would buy a piece of wood costing 1500 dollars that small.lol

 maybe it just works and even they don't know exactly how it works.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 get the same idea of cable brands. lovely marketing but what they describe cannot possibly be responsable for the sound of the cables.


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## proglife

I always feel like I'm reading a tabloid when I read Six Moons...but for some reason, I can't not read it


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## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No it isn't; sometimes too much bass is not pleasing, so by dampening the bass, it might sound better. Same thing as an engeneer does in a recording studio._

 

I don't get why people keep trying to defend this product by putting words into their mouth.

 This is _not what they are claiming_.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't get why people keep trying to defend this product by putting words into their mouth.

 This is not what they are claiming._

 

I read about it on another foreign audio site and the reviewer confirms it works at his house.

 Don't judge anything before you have tried it yourself!


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## OverlordXenu

A $13000 power cable (I have to find it, I lost it). All "audiophile" power conditioners. There can be a legitimate reason for a power condition (such as a smelting plant down the road), but all the audiophile power conditioners are pure BS. Mainly because they don't really do anything.

 The best power conditioners actually hum loudly, and are really heavy. ( http://dansdata.com/gz039.htm )

 Edit: https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/content.php?id=126 There's the power cable. And $30,000 bi-wire speaker cable.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A $13000 power cable (I have to find it, I lost it). All "audiophile" power conditioners. There can be a legitimate reason for a power condition (such as a smelting plant down the road), but all the audiophile power conditioners are pure BS. Mainly because they don't really do anything.

 The best power conditioners actually hum loudly, and are really heavy. ( http://dansdata.com/gz039.htm )

 Edit: https://www.virtualdynamics.ca/content.php?id=126 There's the power cable. And $30,000 bi-wire speaker cable._

 

Ehmm, Nordost top cable is 18.000 euro's. Since i own Nordost cables myself, i know these are serious cables. But 18.000 isn't really compelling or make me run to the best next store.

 We all know that the last 5% is costing dearly; it seems that top 5% is without limits or boundaries in price and materials.

 I knew there was another brand with a 16.000 dollar IC, but Nordost beat em with the new top IC.

 I am however curious, how much more you would get for 18.000 dollars, since the other reference series IC's are allready that good.


----------



## sugarinthegourd

I'll repost something I wrote on another thread:

  Quote:


 To get the most from your power cables, you should upgrade to solid gold circuit breakers and run silver-plated 36"-diameter suspension bridge cables directly from your electrical panel to the power generating station next door (an unsightly neighbor but these are the sacrifices we make for ultimate audio quality).

 Oh, and are you still plugging power cables into cheap Home Depot wall receptacles? Some prefer to upgrade to cryogenically treated titanium receptacles, but really, hardwiring your monoblocks directly to the circuit breaker in your basement is the only way to go. Preferable a 1-metre run or less, which pretty much requires that your hifi set be located in the basement near your panel.

 Anyone want to come over to my basement and listen? I'm right next door to the nuclear plant, shouldn't be too hard to find.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ehmm, Nordost top cable is 18.000 euro's. Since i own Nordost cables myself, i know these are serious cables. But 18.000 isn't really compelling or make me run to the best next store.

 We all know that the last 5% is costing dearly; it seems that top 5% is without limits or boundaries in price and materials.

 I knew there was another brand with a 16.000 dollar IC, but Nordost beat em with the new top IC.

 I am however curious, how much more you would get for 18.000 dollars, since the other reference series IC's are allready that good._

 

...What? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say using a $13,000 POWER cable is any different than a $5 one from the local hardware store? Seriously?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll repost something I wrote on another thread:_

 

right, while your power amps are close to the source, your other runs of cable would be gigantic! How long should a cable be between your pre-amp and your poweramps, sitting in the basement next to the powerbreaker!

 Not the best solution, if you ask me.

 What most people do over here are asking an qualified audio shop to install the audiophile breaker and a seperate group for the audio equipment with their preferred cable.

 Funny you say receptacles: i was thinking of replacing those with audiophile grade receptacles in time. But that would be one of my last tweaks.

 Tweaks or mods that make the biggest changes are replacing caps and stabalizing your powersupply in your powersection of the amp. Those make the most difference. If you do this, you don't need any powerfilters.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...What? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say using a $13,000 POWER cable is any different than a $5 one from the local hardware store? Seriously?_

 

Ofcourse these cables are better then a 5 dolar cable. I experimented extensively with cables and IC's. But the question is, is an IC of 18.000 or a power cable of 13.000 generally better then a powercable or ic costing a few thousand. Even most are hardly willing to pay hundreds for a good cable.

 I've never found a 5 dollar cable that sounded equal or better then reference series of cables, never!


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ofcourse these cables are better then a 5 dolar cable. I experimented extensively with cables and IC's. But the question is, is an IC of 18.000 or a power cable of 13.000 generally better then a powercable or ic costing a few thousand. Even most are hardly willing to pay hundreds for a good cable.

 I've never found a 5 dollar cable that sounded equal or better then reference series of cables, never!_

 

I'm talking about power cables, not interconnects. All power cables do is supply amps and voltage. Unless you put in some circuitry or something, a $13k power cable will supply power exactly like a $5 one.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_right, while your power amps are close to the source, your other runs of cable would be gigantic! How long should a cable be between your pre-amp and your poweramps, sitting in the basement next to the powerbreaker!

 Not the best solution, if you ask me.

 What most people do over here are asking an qualified audio shop to install the audiophile breaker and a seperate group for the audio equipment with their preferred cable.

 Funny you say receptacles: i was thinking of replacing those with audiophile grade receptacles in time. But that would be one of my last tweaks._

 

If you don't realize it, he was being sarcastic. And are you serious? An audiophile circuit breaker? That's it. I am no longer going to call myself an audiophile. I do not want to be associated with you.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm talking about power cables, not interconnects. All power cables do is supply amps and voltage. Unless you put in some circuitry or something, a $13k power cable will supply power exactly like a $5 one._

 

No they don't: as i said before, i have experimented extensively with IC's and powercables and there is quite a difference in sound between different powercables. better stage, more air, speed, attack, detail. All different.

 also clear difference between copper and silver/silverplated powercables.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you don't realize it, he was being sarcastic. And are you serious? An audiophile circuit breaker? That's it. I am no longer going to call myself an audiophile. I do not want to be associated with you._

 

who cares. I know what i am hearing. I believe my ears, not sceptics.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you don't realize it, he was being sarcastic. And are you serious? An audiophile circuit breaker? That's it. I am no longer going to call myself an audiophile. I do not want to be associated with you._

 

yes,
 these are installed quite alot over here and they sound much better then the regular breaker.







 it's only 91 euro's and make quite a difference. if you use this breaker with a seperate group for your audio-equipment with your preferred cable, i think it's just as good or better then using a filter. it's much cheaper also, since a good regenerating filter/powerplants is easally 2000 and over! For a couple of hundred quit you have a seperate group with audiophile grade components.


----------



## Chu

Out of curiosity, tourmaline, what do you think the most ridiculous tweak is?


----------



## Agnostic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Spot on, my man! I lived in San Francisco for 8 years and was surrounded by Wiccans. It's amazing how uneducated educated people can be
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . There were vendors making a mint off of selling polished rocks to doctors and lawyers as "healing stones" or some other such nonsense. I actually really liked San Francisco, but the hippies came pretty close to ruining it for me.

 Los Angeles isn't much better, though. My company, in an obvious move to placate aging hipsters searching for the meaning of life, actually has an absence policy in which you can take as many sick days as you want if they are approved by an acupuncturist
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . The fact that I have to show up to work while someone else gets to stay home because their "chi" is off just infuriates me._

 

As a certified acupuncturist I can tell from your writing that your chi is WAAAAY off. I suggest you stay home for the next 6 months and work no more than 4 hours a day after that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Oh, and that consult will be 300 dollars please.


----------



## rsaavedra

Quote:







 

[irony]
 Only up to an audiophile circuit breaker? That's it? Man, how lame... How can you call yourself an audiophile... You can only dream of mid to low-fi in such conditions...

 My house not only has audiophile equipment, audiophile power cords, audiophile power outlets, AND audiophile circuit brakers, my circuit braker is connected to the main street transformer using special audiophile wires, which are of course connected to a special audiophile power transformer.

 And the power lines feeding that transformer are, of course, special audiophile power lines, not generic ones which would "sound" terrible, harsh treble and loose bass, no no no. These special power lines add so much more snap and punch to the bass, so much more clarity and refinement to the treble. And in fact, the power I get through those power lines and transformer and circuit braker doesn't just come from a generic power plant. It comes, of course, from an audiophile power plant, with audiophile-grade power generators. What less would you expect? And needless to say, the fuel they use to power the engines that drive the generators in that power plant that creates the audiophile electricity that travels through the audiophile power lines that reach the audiophile power transformer that drives the audiophile circuit braker that drives my equipment... (breathes a huge chunk of air...) is also, of course, audiophile fuel. I wouldn't compromise for any less.

 And each of those upstream audiophile additions make a HUGE difference. In Patrick's lingo, each one makes the background so much more blacker, you couldn´t believe there is so much black left after so much blacker and blacker. Unbelievable!! Amazing!!!

 [/irony]


----------



## Bizzel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[irony]
 And each of those upstream audiophile additions make a HUGE difference. In Patrick's lingo, each one makes the background so much more blacker, you couldn´t believe there is so much black left after so much blacker and blacker. Unbelievable!! Amazing!!!

 [/irony]















_

 

Post of the week


----------



## Agnostic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[irony]
 Only up to an audiophile circuit breaker? That's it? Man, how lame... How can you call yourself an audiophile... You can only dream of mid to low-fi in such conditions...

 My house not only has audiophile equipment, audiophile power cords, audiophile power outlets, AND audiophile circuit brakers, my circuit braker is connected to the main street transformer using special audiophile wires, which are of course connected to a special audiophile power transformer.

 And the power lines feeding that transformer are, of course, special audiophile power lines, not generic ones which would "sound" terrible, harsh treble and loose bass, no no no. These special power lines add so much more snap and punch to the bass, so much more clarity and refinement to the treble. And in fact, the power I get through those power lines and transformer and circuit braker doesn't just come from a generic power plant. It comes, of course, from an audiophile power plant, with audiophile-grade power generators. What less would you expect? And needless to say, the fuel they use to power the engines that drive the generators in that power plant that creates the audiophile electricity that travels through the audiophile power lines that reach the audiophile power transformer that drives the audiophile circuit braker that drives my equipment... (breathes a huge chunk of air...) is also, of course, audiophile fuel. I wouldn't compromise for any less.

 And each of those upstream audiophile additions make a HUGE difference. In Patrick's lingo, each one makes the background so much more blacker, you couldn´t believe there is so much black left after so much blacker and blacker. Unbelievable!! Amazing!!!

 [/irony]















_

 

You forgot the Audiophile Juicer! All that expensive cable but one none Audiophile juicer in your kitchen and the whole effect is ruined! (Believe me, I know this from personal experience and I can CLEARLY hear the difference!)


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rsaavedra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_[irony]
 Only up to an audiophile circuit breaker? That's it? Man, how lame... How can you call yourself an audiophile... You can only dream of mid to low-fi in such conditions...

 My house not only has audiophile equipment, audiophile power cords, audiophile power outlets, AND audiophile circuit brakers, my circuit braker is connected to the main street transformer using special audiophile wires, which are of course connected to a special audiophile power transformer.

 And the power lines feeding that transformer are, of course, special audiophile power lines, not generic ones which would "sound" terrible, harsh treble and loose bass, no no no. These special power lines add so much more snap and punch to the bass, so much more clarity and refinement to the treble. And in fact, the power I get through those power lines and transformer and circuit braker doesn't just come from a generic power plant. It comes, of course, from an audiophile power plant, with audiophile-grade power generators. What less would you expect? And needless to say, the fuel they use to power the engines that drive the generators in that power plant that creates the audiophile electricity that travels through the audiophile power lines that reach the audiophile power transformer that drives the audiophile circuit braker that drives my equipment... (breathes a huge chunk of air...) is also, of course, audiophile fuel. I wouldn't compromise for any less.

 And each of those upstream audiophile additions make a HUGE difference. In Patrick's lingo, each one makes the background so much more blacker, you couldn´t believe there is so much black left after so much blacker and blacker. Unbelievable!! Amazing!!!

 [/irony]















_

 

Especially when you never tried it yourself, amazing you can commend on it even you never heard it yourself, pretty amazing, must be the best tweak ever, not listening to the equipment or cables but telling what sounds best just by reading. Pretty amazing.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Although i must admit that patrick is a bit extreme, some of his tweaks actually work.


----------



## sugarinthegourd

Speaking of juicers, I have found that placing fruits and vegetables in select spots in my listening room does wonders for the sound. I like to use a couple of mangoes and a papaya when I am listening to Reggae, a large manioc root for African music, and potatoes and okra sitting in bowls of dry basmati rice with a dusting of garam masala, which does wonders for Ravi Shankar. 

 Still trying to find the perfect materials for Bach. I've tried apples, pears and cherries but they all make the strings sound a bit too fruity. Tomatoes make his string quartets sound like Vivaldi. Any thoughts?

 One other thing, I have noticed that if I hang dried salted plums above my speakers, Glenn Gould can be very clearly heard singing along in Japanese. I don't know what is happening here, but it works.

 You think 6moons might be interested in doing a review? (Of course, you can't use any old fruit & veg, have to use the special audiophile grade I produce with a process that is the result of 3,000 hours of extensive testing and research. Produce will be shipped to you in dry ice and is guaranteed to last from 2-5 days depending on the temperature and insect habitation of your listening room.)

 P.S. I am next going to try blackened catfish for Cajun/zydeco music, but I'm still waiting for the fillets to "burn in."


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Out of curiosity, tourmaline, what do you think the most ridiculous tweak is?_

 

Better equipment, mods, better cables and Ic's all work, Also better chassis or rca plugs work, better breaker works and fibration reduction works, the rest i dunno.

 Although i must say i never heard a difference on amps with fibration reduction feet but on cdplayers it works.
 In order of importance:

 Better equipment/ mods : especally mods can do alot for a relative small amount of money/breaker group for audio.
 cables and IC's
 chassis/rca plugs
 fibration reduction.

 If you did step 1, better equipment/mods, then your system should be very transparent and would let you hear every change made in the other 3 steps.

 If not, don't bother and spend the money wisely on more music!

 I should add one more thing! Tuberolling. Tubes can also make a big difference.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Speaking of juicers, I have found that placing fruits and vegetables in select spots in my listening room does wonders for the sound. I like to use a couple of mangoes and a papaya when I am listening to Reggae, a large manioc root for African music, and potatoes and okra sitting in bowls of basmati rice with a dusting of garam masala does wonders for Ravi Shankar. 

 Still trying to find the perfect materials for Bach. I've tried apples, pears and cherries but they're all a bit too fruity. Tomatoes make him sound like Vivaldi. Any thoughts?

 One other thing, I have noticed that if I hang dried salted plums above my speakers, Glenn Gould can be very clearly heard singing along in Japanese. I don't know what is happening here, but it works.

 You think 6moons might be interested in doing a review? (Of course, you can't use any old fruit & veg, have to use the special audiophile grade I produce with a process that is the result of 3,000 hours of extensive testing and research. Produce will be shipped to you in dry ice and is guaranteed to last from 2-5 days depending on the temperature and insect habitation of your listening room.)_

 


 The fruit does one thing though; it keeps the listener alive when he eats fruit and keeps on listening to healthy sound.


----------



## Agnostic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Still trying to find the perfect materials for Bach. I've tried apples, pears and cherries but they're all a bit too fruity. Tomatoes make him sound like Vivaldi. Any thoughts?_

 

Bach sounds great with coconuts! But you have to get the type that was cut from the tree with a golden machete and driven around town in a Rolls Royce for two days.

 P.S. I have a few for sale at no more than 1500 bucks a piece, p.m. me if interested, I'll even throw in a few free grapes that my dog sat on for a week, very good for Madonna!


----------



## sugarinthegourd

Quote:


 Bach sounds great with coconuts! 
 

I wonder if Bach ever tasted a coconut. I don't suppose they had any in Leipzig, unless maybe they were carried there by a swallow.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder if Bach ever tasted a coconut. I don't suppose they had any in Leipzig, unless maybe they were carried there by a swallow._

 

Nahh, pirates brought it to europe. he was quite coconuts when he wrote his musical pieces.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Or was that Mozart.......


----------



## Ichinichi

I'm a relative tweak newb, but I do subscribe to the notion that until you've heard it, you can't say it won't work. 

 Then again, if your Bill Gates and you have already splurged on your system, you need something to keep the hobby alive! That's where I think these niche products come in.


----------



## patalp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just keep being skeptical in all those claims, till they are scientifically proved, instead of going and play the same game with those voodoo beleivers, and try to hear those differences due to those claimed non scientific tweaks, that in good margin are just due to placebo, or to due other circumstantial things...but whatever makes one happy is waht should matter to them...if you feel that a power cable works wonders, and that any equipment burn in is real, and that a capacitor needs 200 hours to perform its best, and that biwiring will benefit your speakers, and that an LP sounds better than a CD just because it is analog, disregarding all otherl imitations of the media, and that you can hear the jitter errors, but not the surface noise on an LP, and that tubes are better than SS, and, and, and...what else???? makes you happy, that is what counts.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

Tubes are better than SS, atleast in the world of guitar amps - fi lol


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is actually a basic principle of hi-fi, that what you don't hear is extremely important._

 

Most people who think like this have plenty of problems in the sound they CAN hear. It's hard enough to control the audible frequencies, I can't imagine having energy left over to tackle what I CAN'T hear.

 If you can't hear it, don't sweat it.

 Now audio equipment salesmen on the other hand, love to make you worry about what you can't hear. That way they can convince you to buy their audiophool product at an inflated place even if you can't hear any difference yourself.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Occam's razor. The Tweak Works vs. Perceptial Distortion. We have a tool to get rid of this effect, it's called ABX. Unfortunately that topic is banned here, so, what can you do?_

 

The fact that blind tests exist isn't banned. Just the discussion of blind testing. State your conclusion and provide external links to the proofs.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've never found a 5 dollar cable that sounded equal or better then reference series of cables, never!_

 

I think someone cloned Patrick.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The fact that blind tests exist isn't banned. Just the discussion of blind testing. State your conclusion and provide external links to the proofs.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I thought the ban applied to this forum only.


----------



## bigshot

No, it's site-wide. There are reasons why, but we don't talk about them. It's obvious why if you think about it.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## jsaliga

I think I misplaced my moonrock needle. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --Jerome


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I read about it on another foreign audio site and the reviewer confirms it works at his house.

*Don't judge anything before you have tried it yourself!*_

 


 One of the dumbest things I've heard is this saying.

 How about trying logic and reasoning instead? There is a reason people have these abilities, though some aren't quite as able as others.

 EDIT:

 BTW, A good psu should remove all of the noise and such from the ac line when it creates the DC. therefor all these cables would be useless. This would be super easy to test, measure the ripple in the DC line of the psu. But then I'm sure they would come up with some other magical property of the DC that can only be described with such vague terms like "attack" and "air".


----------



## sejarzo

Precisely, LawnGnome.

 If power cables make a huge difference, it would be due to a failing in the PSU design, not the cable.

 Why can't the PSU remove that noise and such? Never heard any good reason for that.....

 Oh, I forgot, it's because you need a $$$$ power cable to restore the "PRAT" in the music.


----------



## sugarinthegourd

Moonrock needle! I'd almost forgotten about that, one of my favorite Steve Martin bits. I even have a handy mp3 clip which you can hear here:

http://sugarinthegourd.com/mp3s/Googolphonics_32.mp3


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think someone cloned Patrick.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 Like you use 5 dollar cables for your recording stuff.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Perhaps that´s why your such a bigshot in the recording business.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of the dumbest things I've heard is this saying.

 How about trying logic and reasoning instead? There is a reason people have these abilities, though some aren't quite as able as others.

 EDIT:

 BTW, A good psu should remove all of the noise and such from the ac line when it creates the DC. therefor all these cables would be useless. This would be super easy to test, measure the ripple in the DC line of the psu. But then I'm sure they would come up with some other magical property of the DC that can only be described with such vague terms like "attack" and "air"._

 

The dumbest thing i ever heard here is "i know how a cable sound but i never listened to it".

 That is without a doubt the dumbest thing ever.

 You guys are reading to your sound equipment.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You even could reason with it, but if it sounds bad, it still sounds bad, no matter how much you reason about it.

 There's a reason people have ears. Now, that sounds reasonable to me, if you reason about it. There's some people that have these abilities using their ears, though some aren't quite as able as others.

 Didn't i say that some posts before that modding the psu or the powersection of the amp should work better then filtering.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I quote Quote:


 Tweaks or mods that make the biggest changes are replacing caps and stabalizing your powersupply in your powersection of the amp. Those make the most difference. If you do this, you don't need any powerfilters. 
 

Even after i've done that, i still hear quite a difference between the copper cable and the silverplated powercable.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you wanna know how my amp was modded to the max, take a look at this:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250682


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Precisely, LawnGnome.

 If power cables make a huge difference, it would be due to a failing in the PSU design, not the cable.

 Why can't the PSU remove that noise and such? Never heard any good reason for that.....

 Oh, I forgot, it's because you need a $$$$ power cable to restore the "PRAT" in the music._

 

Wrong! If filtering makes such a difference, that would be a failing in the psu design!


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most people who think like this have plenty of problems in the sound they CAN hear. It's hard enough to control the audible frequencies, I can't imagine having energy left over to tackle what I CAN'T hear.

 If you can't hear it, don't sweat it.

 Now audio equipment salesmen on the other hand, love to make you worry about what you can't hear. That way they can convince you to buy their audiophool product at an inflated place even if you can't hear any difference yourself.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Not everything is a corporate conspiracy, yo
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 There's a very simple way to visualize what's going on here. Just imagine that you have a guitar player in the studio playing very quiet passages. Let's say that his pick hitting the string causes a brief signal of 60dB at 800 Hz (btw, these numbers are totally arbitrary; I took a physics of sound class in college, but it's 17 or 18 years, so I can't quote the exact numbers, but I think this is pretty quiet... you get the idea). It is easily picked up by the microphone and goes onto the master recording. It's also there on the CD. However, due to poor power supply issues, there is also a low level of static or "fuzz" on the system. Let's say (again, arbitrarily) that it's a somewhat random signal, but hovers around 800 to 1000 Hz at 61dB. Although this is probably not enough static to be "annoying" to the average listener, it is enough to drown out the sound.

 Now is this enough to make it worth the big bucks? To me, absolutely. If you're the type of person who isn't as anal as me, probably not. Some people are happy with cheap MP3 players; if they enjoy the music, who am I to lecture them? All I ask is the same.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not everything is a corporate conspiracy, yo
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There's a very simple way to visualize what's going on here. Just imagine that you have a guitar player in the studio playing very quiet passages. Let's say that his pick hitting the string causes a brief signal of 60dB at 800 Hz (btw, these numbers are totally arbitrary; I took a physics of sound class in college, but it's 17 or 18 years, so I can't quote the exact numbers, but I think this is pretty quiet... you get the idea). It is easily picked up by the microphone and goes onto the master recording. It's also there on the CD. However, due to poor power supply issues, there is also a low level of static or "fuzz" on the system. Let's say (again, arbitrarily) that it's a somewhat random signal, but hovers around 800 to 1000 Hz at 61dB. Although this is probably not enough static to be "annoying" to the average listener, it is enough to drown out the sound.

 Now is this enough to make it worth the big bucks? To me, absolutely. If you're the type of person who isn't as anal as me, probably not. Some people are happy with cheap MP3 players; if they enjoy the music, who am I to lecture them? All I ask is the same._

 

I thought 30db is very quit, 40 db is whispering etc. 60 db is quite hearable....

 Even for the guys that don't have golden ears.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought 30db is very quit, 40 db is whispering etc. 60 db is quite hearable....

 Even for the guys that don't have golden ears.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

Notice the "arbitrary" part!!! I thought you were on my side


----------



## Agent Kang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Why people that believe things that defy physics and logic amazes me._

 

The explanation is quite simple: they want to be happy.

 The logic is somewhere along the lines of: if a certain proposition is true, I will feel good as a result of it. I want to feel good. Therefore, without sufficient intellectual self-control, I will believe in the proposition.

 If Jesus is the son of God, I will be happy. I want to be happy. Therefore, I will believe that Jesus is the son of God.


----------



## Chu

I have another theory.

 Every elite class has a preferred way to show off their money, be it cars or furniture or art or what have you.

 A lot of the elites in the asian business community seems to like to show off their wealth via their audio equipment.

 There are going to be $15,000 cables because someone out there wants $15,000 cables to show off their wealth. Ditto for the ridiculously priced transports, speakers, etc. that cause people to go "who would ever buy this?". I mean, in the end, it's at least more functional then a $64,000 umbrella stand.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have another theory.

 Every elite class has a preferred way to show off their money, be it cars or furniture or art or what have you.

 A lot of the elites in the asian business community seems to like to show off their wealth via their audio equipment.

 There are going to be $15,000 cables because someone out there wants $15,000 cables to show off their wealth. Ditto for the ridiculously priced transports, speakers, etc. that cause people to go "who would ever buy this?". I mean, in the end, it's at least more functional then a $64,000 umbrella stand._

 

Well, I'm not Asian but I do play one on TV
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...

 To me, it's not so much showing off my wealth as it is exclusivity. I like the fact that no one else that I know has a Ray Samuels B-52 amp. If it were only about showing off wealth, I wouldn't be driving a car that is worth less than $10,000. Yes, my stereo is worth three times what my car is worth!


----------



## bloop

Yeah, honestly, better sound or not, if you have enough money and the kind of system it would take for you to even consider buying a $400 wooden knob, then, please, at least consider feeding a family in a 3rd world country for a year instead.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I'm not Asian but I do play one on TV
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...

*To me, it's not so much showing off my wealth as it is exclusivity. I like the fact that no one else that I know has a Ray Samuels B-52 amp.* If it were only about showing off wealth, I wouldn't be driving a car that is worth less than $10,000. Yes, my stereo is worth three times what my car is worth!_

 

Exactly what is sad. Your buying gear for the wrong reasons. It shouldn't be to make you feel superior.

 YET, that is why all these niche products sell. Why do you think those stupid resonators go up in "performance" according to the cost of the metal they supposedly are made of?

 And then of course they have to hear the difference, because otherwise it would be foolish for them to spend such large sums of money. So they get twisted thoughts in their mind that anything less is garbage, and they can hear the difference.

 to sum up ALL of these tweaks
*
 they would prove it works if they could, but they can't because they don't*.

 These tweaks ARE testable, but none are tested, because all the creators know they will not stand up to actual testing.

 I find it funny, and sad how people *let themselves* become so easily manipulated and conned.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One of the dumbest things I've heard is this saying.

 How about trying logic and reasoning instead? There is a reason people have these abilities, though some aren't quite as able as others._

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pakZw__CUx0



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, A good psu should remove all of the noise and such from the ac line when it creates the DC. therefor all these cables would be useless. This would be super easy to test, measure the ripple in the DC line of the psu. But then I'm sure they would come up with some other magical property of the DC that can only be described with such vague terms like "attack" and "air"._

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgX6ghGPTw

 It is only magic if you don't know how it works.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Exactly what is sad. Your buying gear for the wrong reasons. It shouldn't be to make you feel superior.

 YET, that is why all these niche products sell. Why do you think those stupid resonators go up in "performance" according to the cost of the metal they supposedly are made of?

 And then of course they have to hear the difference, because otherwise it would be foolish for them to spend such large sums of money. So they get twisted thoughts in their mind that anything less is garbage, and they can hear the difference.

 to sum up ALL of these tweaks
*
 they would prove it works if they could, but they can't because they don't*.

 These tweaks ARE testable, but none are tested, because all the creators know they will not stand up to actual testing.

 I find it funny, and sad how people *let themselves* become so easily manipulated and conned._

 

A. You don't know me, so please don't start psychoanalyzing me.

 B. You haven't heard my system, so please don't start analyzing it.

 Doing so would be very unscientific, no


----------



## rsaavedra

[more irony]

 Don't let the price of a tweak cloud your reason. One thing is a ridiculously expensive tweak, another is a ridiculous tweak. Beware of the subtle difference. "Ridiculously expensive", vs. just "Ridiculous". Ahhhhh! yes, the joys of enlightenment ...

 Ahem... cough... cough... (In extremely dogmatic and sober tone) The improvement a tweak provides in sound playback is almost always proportional to the cost of the tweak. It does happen that the higher the cost, the more you can show-off your wealth, but hey, that's of course accidental and secondary; no actually, terciary. The higher the tweak's cost, the better the sound.

 If some people can't understand why someone would pay a ridiculously high price for a tweak, well, shame on them. Either they are cheap steaks, and/or they have rather inferior hearing abilities.

 I know all this because my ears tell me this is the case, and I don't need further logic or proof of anything. My ears know how to identify a great tweak. And here's a good example:

 If you have an iPod shuffle this is a tweak that undoubtedly works amazingly well improving soundstage, control in the bottom octaves, and pristine treble clarity. I can't even start to list all the beneficial properties of gold and diamonds on the different describable qualities of sound, quantum noise, ultrasonic and infrasonic harmonics, etc. etc. Whoever pursues this tweak is clearly aiming at ultimate sound purity, and has supreme hearing abilities. Despite first impressions, the tweak has nothing to do with showing off wealth or attention seaking egos:

http://www.gadgets-club.com/luxury-g...-ipod-shuffle/


 [/irony]


----------



## OverlordXenu

Look at power cables this way: That expensive power cable is a purple straw. That $5 radioshack power cable is a blue straw. The water is the power. You put both the straws in the same cup, filled with water.

 No matter which straw you drink from, you get the same water.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pakZw__CUx0





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgX6ghGPTw

 It is only magic if you don't know how it works._

 

You delusion rantings prove nothing, and are quickly losing their entertainment value.

 I think I'll take physical laws and scientific testing over your lunatic ideas, thanks.


----------



## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look at power cables this way: That expensive power cable is a purple straw. That $5 radioshack power cable is a blue straw. The water is the power. You put both the straws in the same cup, filled with water.

 No matter which straw you drink from, you get the same water._

 

A very one dimensional view of it.

 Conceptualizing with the following exagerated metaphor seems to match the real world experience of it:
 If you squirt the same water at a higher velocity vs a trickle the end water is the same but the experience of receiving the water is completely different. An exageration yes, but this does seem to be analagous to the way power supply caps are charged. In addition various power cords also emphasise or deemphasis RFI reception and which is out of simplistic current voltage sphere, but is power cord dependent and definitely affects front ends to varying degrees.

 After clinging to simplistic understandings of electricity for many years I pooh-poohed any power cord nonsense. Then after a few trials of different power cord gauge and topology, I realised how unscientific I had been not exploring the real world observable phenomena, because of simplistic scientific flat-earth mentality.

 I now know that dealing with every aspect of an audio systems power comprises about 35% of the potential sound quality.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A very one dimensional view of it.

 Conceptualizing with the following exagerated metaphor seems to match the real world experience of it:
 If you squirt the same water at a higher velocity vs a trickle the end water is the same but the experience of receiving the water is completely different. An exageration yes, but this does seem to be analagous to the way power supply caps are charged. In addition various power cords also emphasise or deemphasis RFI reception and which is out of simplistic current voltage sphere, but is power cord dependent and definitely affects front ends to varying degrees._

 

If that is what makes you happy to believe, go for it.

 A power cable that is at least better than house wiring, will NOT change the sound anymore. The lines to your house are miles and miles long, and become very very polluted, you think because you have 3 feet of fancy copper that it will clean up that power? IT WON'T!

 That is the job of the powersupply, and ONLY the power supply is doing that. A simple 5$ RFI line filter will have more of a positive effect on the power the psu receives than any 1000$ cable.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you squirt the same water at a higher velocity vs a trickle the end water is the same but the experience of receiving the water is completely different._

 

You aren't really saying that you can change the speed of electricity by swapping in a different wire are you? Magical thinking is the use of analogies that just don't apply. It *seems* logical if we think how straws operate, but if you know anything about electricity, your analogy is totally wrong.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look at power cables this way: That expensive power cable is a purple straw. That $5 radioshack power cable is a blue straw. The water is the power. You put both the straws in the same cup, filled with water.

 No matter which straw you drink from, you get the same water._

 

With power cables you need to look at how the capacitor is filled instead of what it is filled with. Since the equipment operates with sinewaves you can change the flavor with different shapes and materials of the conductor. But that isn't all, you have high frequencies traveling on the surface of the cable and it's obvious that silver plating does something. And since it's AC, the dielectric matters also. There are many things that happen inside the cable and when you add them all together it gets very complex. Just measuring 1 variable at a time isn't going to work, all of it needs to be measured all at once, and using the human ears is still the best way to do that.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like you use 5 dollar cables for your recording stuff._

 

I once asked an engineer what kind of cables he used. He told me that he "rolled his own". I asked if the materials were expensive, and he said, "Heck no. I just have a lot of wire to lay when I'm installing a board in a room. I buy wire by the spindle because it's cheaper than getting ready made." He said that on several occasions he had been in a session where they needed a particular cable that they didn't have. He sent a runner to Radio Shack to get it.

 Pros aren't the ones using "reference grade" cables. It takes an amateur to put his money in such a wrong place.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Lazarus Short

Keep your nasty tweaks.

 I've tried some, even one that killed [yes, killed] an expensive CDP.

 My greatest revelations in audio have been:

 electrostatic headphones

 class-A amps

 powered speaks

 tubes

 TDS

 [in no particular order]

 I have been thinking about this for some time, just as I have been thinking about the most meaningful upgrades on my bikes, and that would be non-gaspipe frames, alloy rims, custom wheels. The rest is minor, except for that ultimate thing: a comfortable bike seat. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Laz


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With power cables you need to look at how the capacitor is filled instead of what it is filled with. Since the equipment operates with sinewaves you can change the flavor with different shapes and materials of the conductor. But that isn't all, you have high frequencies traveling on the surface of the cable and it's obvious that silver plating does something. And since it's AC, the dielectric matters also. There are many things that happen inside the cable and when you add them all together it gets very complex. Just measuring 1 variable at a time isn't going to work, all of it needs to be measured all at once, and using the human ears is still the best way to do that._

 

No. Human senses are VERY fallible. The human sense of sound is one of the most unreliable senses, if not the most unreliable.

 Not only are the ears themselves unreliable, but even more unreliable is how the brain processes the sound, since suggestion alone can hugely influence a person's perception, even though the sound the ears receive is the same.

 I'm pretty sure everyone here on this forum will agree, that you yourself patrick are an excellent example of this.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pros aren't the ones using "reference grade" cables. It takes an amateur to put his money in such a wrong place.
 Steve_

 

I completely agree, spend the money on better components, and you will know, and even be able to measure, the increase in sound quality.


----------



## sugarinthegourd

Quote:


 you have high frequencies traveling on the surface of the cable 
 

So the much-abused phenomenon of skin effect also comes into play with the "high frequencies" on a 50/60 Hz power line? I love it!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a very simple way to visualize what's going on here. Just imagine that you have a guitar player in the studio playing very quiet passages. It is easily picked up by the microphone and goes onto the master recording. It's also there on the CD. However, due to poor power supply issues, there is also a low level of static or "fuzz" on the system._

 

I've worked in sound studios. They control their power for one reason and one reason only. Brownouts. During the Summer, with air conditioners running all over the city, power line levels fluctuate. In a home, a momentary click or pop every few weeks during the summer won't kill you. In a recording studio it's important because it can ruin a take. Low level static or fuzz doesn't exist in power lines. Either they work or they don't.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If that is what makes you happy to believe, go for it.

 A power cable that is at least better than house wiring, will NOT change the sound anymore. The lines to your house are miles and miles long, and become very very polluted, you think because you have 3 feet of fancy copper that it will clean up that power? IT WON'T!

 That is the job of the powersupply, and ONLY the power supply is doing that. A simple 5$ RFI line filter will have more of a positive effect on the power the psu receives than any 1000$ cable._

 

The longer my Valhalla was the more of the smooth and open coloration I could hear. The difference was HUGE between 50cm, 1m and 2m lengths. 

 I didn't like longer than 1m for my amp and DAC. But for my transport, the longer the better.


----------



## HumanMedia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. Human senses are VERY fallible. The human sense of sound is one of the most unreliable senses, if not the most unreliable.

 Not only are the ears themselves unreliable, but even more unreliable is how the brain processes the sound, since suggestion alone can hugely influence a person's perception, even though the sound the ears receive is the same.

 I'm pretty sure everyone here on this forum will agree, that you yourself patrick are an excellent example of this._

 



 In some areas they are inaccurate, in other areas extremely accurate, better than many instruments. Just like the human eye. In hearing for example: sit in a dark room and have someone walk around silently. You can tell where they are because of tiny changes in reflection/absorbtion between auditory channels of their body within the reflection system within the room. Try 'seeing' that by analysing it with waveform data. What would appear in a waveform as probably out of human perception is clearly perceivable. (It can be done if you know what your are looking for to start with and what transform to apply - but if you didnt, it would be missed by casual observation of simplistic data visualisations)

 The eye is the same. Its great at defining details in the focal point, but what you think you are seeing in the peripheral is chemical averaging of very low def data in the psycho-optical part of the brain. Not a reassuring though for those rigid flat-earth single minded science types whose career and world views might be based on their observation egos eh? But within that focal point, what a wealth of detail there is. A single photon can be perceived.

 So by labeling our senses as unreliable by looking at the weak points not the strong points is clearly a misrepresentation. Also remember that people can quickly learn to increase their accuracy an accuity above what an average sample mihgt indicate. Also relying on subconcious mental processing can maginfy our abilities many times. We may talk of them as gut feelings, or 'space' or 'air' but these are just our sensory metaphors for what are extremely detailed physical phenomena being picked up by our subconscious processing.

 Step out of the dark ages you year 7 science dogmatists.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the much-abused phenomenon of skin effect also comes into play with the "high frequencies" on a 50/60 Hz power line? I love it!_

 

The sinewave and RFI can travel inside the same cable... Skeptics only measure one at a time. They have a limited way of thinking.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Lol...You're saying a longer cable is better? The whole point of a cable is to lose as little signal as possible...A longer cable just makes it easier to lose the signal.

 You crack me up. Honestly.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In some areas they are inaccurrate, in other areas extremely so. Just like the human eye. In hearing for example: sit in a dark room and have someone walk around silently. You can tell where they are because of tiny changes in reflection/absorbtion between auditory channels. Try 'seeing' that by analysing it with waveform data. What would appear in a waveform as probably out of human perception is clearly perceivable.

 The eye is the same. Its great at defining details in the focal point, but what you think you are seeing in the peripheral is chemical averaging of very low def data in the psycho-optical part of the brain. Not a reassuring though for those rigid flat-earth single minded science types whose career and world views might be based on their observation egos eh?

 So by labeling our senses as unreliable by looking at the weak points not the strong points is clearly a misrepresentation. Also remember that people can quickly learn to increase their accuracy an accuity above what an average sample mihgt indicate. Also relying on subconcious mental processing can maginfy our abilities many times. We may talk of them as gut feelings, or 'space' or 'air' but these are just our sensory metaphors for what are extremely detailed physical phenomena.

 Step out of the dark ages you year 7 science dogmatists._

 


 Half of this isn't even relevant. 

 All of this really is useless however. Since ALL of these claims these people make are easily testable through the scientific method, and ABX testing, yet i have not seen a SINGLE tests using one of these methods that support the claims these "tweak" creators make.

 You would think when selling blocks of wood or copper for thousand's and thousands of dollars, they could hire someone from a university to do controlled testing. 

 In fact, that would cost less than the retail price of the items they give away to reviewers. Since they would get the products back afterward.

 So why would these companies choose some crackpot reviewer over proper scientific testing? Hmmm.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. Human senses are VERY fallible. The human sense of sound is one of the most unreliable senses, if not the most unreliable.

 Not only are the ears themselves unreliable, but even more unreliable is how the brain processes the sound, since suggestion alone can hugely influence a person's perception, even though the sound the ears receive is the same.

 I'm pretty sure everyone here on this forum will agree, that you yourself patrick are an excellent example of this._

 

_*Skeptic*: The Earth is flat, and I don't need to find out because I already know everything. _
*Believer*: But I want to find out on my own.
_*Skeptic*: I will not allow anyone else to find it out either, because I don't want someone else to know something I don't, I want to make my ego grow bigger._
*Believer*: But...
_*Skeptic*: No buts, if you leave with your boat I will try to stop you!_

 (10 years later the boat arrives)

*Believer*: I did it, Earth is not flat, it is round.
_*Skeptic*: You are delusional!_
*Believer*: But I saw it with my own eyes!
_*Skeptic*: It's not real. You need to make a double blind test._
*Believer*: I can't deny the truth.
_*Skeptic*: You are a fraud and a liar. Now you will get crucified!_
*Believer*: Arghh the pain!
_*Skeptic*: We can stop this crucifixion, as long as you admit you were delusional!_
*Believer*: You are evil!
_*Skeptic*: No, the Earth is flat, I am 100% sure. Everyone who say otherwise are delusional, period._


----------



## sugarinthegourd

Quote:


 The longer my Valhalla was the more of the smooth and open coloration I could hear. 
 

Paging Doctor Freud...

 (I get a lot of emails promising me a longer Valhalla, but I didn't know they would affect my audio enjoyment as well!)


----------



## rsaavedra

Seems you got the roles reversed:

_*Gullible Believer*: The Earth is flat..._
*Skeptic*: But I want evidence...


----------



## sugarinthegourd

Quote:


 The sinewave and RFI can travel inside the same cable 
 

Oh, I get it. So due to skin effect, expensive silver-plated power cables do a better job of carrying RFI to the components.

 Thanks, now it all makes sense.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lol...You're saying a longer cable is better? The whole point of a cable is to lose as little signal as possible...A longer cable just makes it easier to lose the signal._

 

The longer the cable is the less neutral it gets. Like I said, the longer my Valhalla was the more coloration I could hear. It changes the sound to the worse and is just a band-aid for crappy gear and recordings. With stock power cable I hear low-level background noise from the recordings but with Valhalla that low-level detail is gone, Valhalla removes low-level detail which makes it sound cleaner, faster and smoother. When I tried Vishnu there was something in front of the music, but with Valhalla it just sounded transparent and like real life. There are many ways to fine-tune the sound.

 I like to use vibration isolation and shielding to make it neutral, and then I add Valhalla coloration to give the illusion of real life.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You crack me up. Honestly._

 

Skeptics spend their time laughing instead of learning, in the future they will know the truth and then it's too late, they could have gotten better sound much earlier.


----------



## Alleyman

I doubt that any kind of engineering or science goes into these crazy "tweaks". Just blind faith and a very good sense of marketing.

 The end user is then forced to justify the usually expensive tweak by "hearing" the difference.


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A very one dimensional view of it.

 Conceptualizing with the following exagerated metaphor seems to match the real world experience of it:
 If you squirt the same water at a higher velocity vs a trickle the end water is the same but the experience of receiving the water is completely different. An exageration yes, but this does seem to be analagous to the way power supply caps are charged. In addition various power cords also emphasise or deemphasis RFI reception and which is out of simplistic current voltage sphere, but is power cord dependent and definitely affects front ends to varying degrees.

 After clinging to simplistic understandings of electricity for many years I pooh-poohed any power cord nonsense. Then after a few trials of different power cord gauge and topology, I realised how unscientific I had been not exploring the real world observable phenomena, because of simplistic scientific flat-earth mentality.

 I now know that dealing with every aspect of an audio systems power comprises about 35% of the potential sound quality._

 

1. Comparing power cords to capacitors is way past apples and oranges. Caps that measure better perform better. Also, some capacitors are notoriously noisy. Neither of these things has to be taken on faith, they are easily measurable.

 2. I've never seen a power cord that doesn't follow the exact same topology then your average $5 power cord. It's conductors to connect point A_1..A_3 to B_1...B_3. What exactly are you referring to?


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The longer the cable is the less neutral it gets. Like I said, the longer my Valhalla was the more coloration I could hear. It changes the sound to the worse and is just a band-aid for crappy gear and recordings. With stock power cable I hear low-level background noise from the recordings but with Valhalla that low-level detail is gone, Valhalla removes low-level detail which makes it sound cleaner, faster and smoother. When I tried Vishnu there was something in front of the music, but with Valhalla it just sounded transparent and like real life. There are many ways to fine-tune the sound.

 I like to use vibration isolation and shielding to make it neutral, and then I add Valhalla coloration to give the illusion of real life.


 Skeptics spend their time laughing instead of learning, in the future they will know the truth and then it's too late, they could have gotten better sound much earlier._

 

Patrick, ALL of this REAL technology is built on principles and theories that came about using the scientific method. 

 It is NOT up to the general public to prove a claim. The burden of proving a claim rests on the person making the claim. 

 So either prove it, or just stop already. It is tiring reading(and now sadly, watching) your absurd claims and ranting.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sugarinthegourd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Quote:


 are custom made with beech wood and bronze where the bronze is used as the insert to mount to the stem of the volume pot. The beech wood is coated several times with C37 lacquer for best sound as pointed out by Dieter Ennemoser. How can this make a difference??? Well, hearing is believing as we always say. The sound becomes much more open and free flowing with a nice improvement in resolution. Dynamics are better and overall naturalness is improved.
 ...
 The point here is the micro vibrations created by the volume pots and knobs find their way into the delicate signal path and cause degradation (Bad vibrations equal bad sound). With the signature knobs micro vibrations from the C37 concept of wood, bronze and the lacquer itself compensate for the volume pots and provide (Good Vibrations) our ear/brain combination like to hear…way better sound!! 
 





_

 

I don't need to try that knob to know it makes a difference. Different case materials give a different sound, but if you remove all vibrations it doesn't matter anymore. I use Magix levitation feet with books on top of the equipment, it removes as much vibrations as possible.

 I tried different materials on top of the chassis and found that a solid material on top gave the biggest coloration. Using multiple objects on top gave a better sound because there was less emphasis of frequencies. Then I realized, that is exactly what Brilliant Pebbles does, it has multiple stones of different shapes, sizes and materials. Brilliant Pebbles has a good performance vs weight ratio. But I found a few kg of books to be the most effective. 

 Since there are multiple pages inside the books, it might have less resonance problems than something solid made from metal. Books are great for mass damping. Maybe some bags of sand work well too, but it's harder to keep it consistent. Books are consistent and they last a lifetime.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Patrick, ALL of this REAL technology is built on principles and theories that came about using the scientific method. 

 It is NOT up to the general public to prove a claim. The burden of proving a claim rests on the person making the claim. 

 So either prove it, or just stop already. It is tiring reading(and now sadly, watching) your absurd claims and ranting._

 

You are telling all audiophiles in this forum to stop sharing their impressions?


----------



## bhd812

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 So either prove it, or just stop already. It is tiring reading(and now sadly, watching) your absurd claims and ranting._

 

Who died and made you Jude?


 jeez these '07' freshmen have no patience...


----------



## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are telling all audiophiles in this forum to stop sharing their impressions?_

 

Based on your rantings and ravings I wouldn't listen to anything you say either...


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skeptics spend their time laughing instead of learning, in the future they will know the truth and then it's too late, they could have gotten better sound much earlier._

 

Quite honestly, if it take $15K cables to get better sound, that's the point where I have to pass.


----------



## Agent Kang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The longer my Valhalla was the more of the smooth and open coloration I could hear. The difference was HUGE between 50cm, 1m and 2m lengths. 
_

 

HUGE? 

 HUGE you say? 

 You either need to get your hearing checked or learn a new set of adjectives to describe what's around you.

 HUGE is the word describe the difference in what you hear when the power switch is on or off on your amp; HUGE is the difference between a noisy, broken tube and a working tube; HUGE is the adjective to use to describe the transformation Optimus Prime from a truck to a robot.

 To declare the improvement in SQ of a 1m interconnect/power cord differential as "HUGE" not only border on ridiculous; it jumps over the fence, swims across the river, and elopes with my GF.

 There clearly is a well-defined market for snake oils. C'est la vie.


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HumanMedia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Step out of the dark ages you year 7 science dogmatists._

 

I had a response here, but really the argument just keeps going in circles. There is one incredibly important difference between the science behind everything you listed and the science of tweaks. It makes one science, and it makes the other dogma.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *archosman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Based on your rantings and ravings I wouldn't listen to anything you say either...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quite honestly, if it take $15K cables to get better sound, that's the point where I have to pass._

 

If you had read my posts in other threads you would have seen I get better sound for a fraction of the price. I built a system that gives the best sound for as little money as possible. A single Valhalla power cable is enough if you cut it open and use 1 conductor per signal. 

 I have cut open my Valhalla interconnect to make a direct comparison against my Valkyrja speaker cable, and the Valkyrja was better so I use that in my system instead, it costs 1/30th of the price.

 I have removed the daisy chained power conditioners because they were compensating for the lack of bass of the Valhalla interconnect. And since I removed the power conditioners I didn't need extra tweaks for them.

 I have removed PS Audio Gain Cell pre-amp and I use the built in pre-amp inside Benchmark DAC1, I have the Valkyrja speaker cable hardwired on both ends, no expensive connectors are needed.

 Even plugging everything into the wall sounds acceptable. Power conditioner wasn't needed because it sounded very smooth from Valhalla power cord and Magix levitation feet. Even ERS Paper wasn't needed because it sounded smooth enough. There weren't any dynamics but it still sounded very good. 
 Vibration isolation was what gave the biggest improvements for me. ERS Paper added dynamics and low-level detail, it isn't expensive at all compared to power conditioning. The problem with power conditioning is that it adds weaknesses.

 I have $$$$$ gear sitting in boxes because they make the sound worse, all of them are mutilated and I can't sell them. But I don't care because my audio hobby is complete, it can't get any better, and it's also easier to replace if something breaks. My system went from $50k to below $10k and the improvement in sound quality is the biggest I have ever heard. It was because of the tweaks and knowing what to do with them, but people don't want to listen.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are telling all audiophiles in this forum to stop sharing their impressions?_

 

No, I'm telling YOU to quit posting your absurd crap. About how 1m of cable makes a "HUGE" difference. And how you need to use your books on your components to avoid "frequency emphasis".

 You also talked about how people don't understand because they haven't tried certain tweaks, then how would you know the knob works if you have not tried it?

 You keep talking about skeptics patrick, hell, you even made videos about it now. So how about you show me some evidence, besides your own ears? Anything at all. Something along blind tests, or an oscilloscope test, heck, even try with a multimeter.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Agent Kang* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HUGE? 

 HUGE you say? 

 You either need to get your hearing checked or learn a new set of adjectives to describe what's around you.

 HUGE is the word describe the difference in what you hear when the power switch is on or off on your amp; HUGE is the difference between a noisy, broken tube and a working tube; HUGE is the adjective to use to describe the transformation Optimus Prime from a truck to a robot.

 To declare the improvement in SQ of a 1m interconnect/power cord differential as "HUGE" not only border on ridiculous; it jumps over the fence, swims across the river, and elopes with my GF.

 There clearly is a well-defined market for snake oils. C'est la vie._

 

If I get listening fatigue after 15 minutes from the 50cm power cable, but with the 2m cable I can listen for 12 hours straight. Then that is what I call a HUGE difference.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, I'm telling YOU to quit posting your absurd crap. About how 1m of cable makes a "HUGE" difference. And how you need to use your books on your components to avoid "frequency emphasis".

 You also talked about how people don't understand because they haven't tried certain tweaks, then how would you know the knob works if you have not tried it?

 You keep talking about skeptics patrick, hell, you even made videos about it now. So how about you show me some evidence, besides your own ears? Anything at all. Something along blind tests, or an oscilloscope test, heck, even try with a multimeter._

 

I have done a double blind test on video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_bMgSYpZac
 I asked skeptics if they wanted more but they didn't want any more because they had already made up their minds.


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## archosman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have done a double blind test on video: ...
 I asked skeptics if they wanted more but they didn't want any more because they had already made up their minds._

 

I think they've figured out you're a bit of a flake and your schtick is getting old. That's why they didn't want any more...


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look at power cables this way: That expensive power cable is a purple straw. That $5 radioshack power cable is a blue straw. The water is the power. You put both the straws in the same cup, filled with water.

 No matter which straw you drink from, you get the same water._

 

My water still tastes a bit different using pure copper or a silverplated/pure silver straw.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quite honestly, if it take $15K cables to get better sound, that's the point where I have to pass._

 

No it doesn't any good cable, better then the 5 dollar one can give you pleasure in music. A more expensive cable "might" give you even more pleasure. On my rig it made quite a differecne, no guarantee it will do at the same level on your rig. The higher level your equipment is, the easier it is to pick up "subtle" changes. It's that simple.

 fact is that i heard IC's that sounded really bad on one system, shine on another, so, yes, matching is important.

 Pleasure in music isn't measured in money, for some it is since they think money will buy better sound, it does, only to a certain extend.

 While i have decent (expensive) cables, do i believe in the ultra high end cables of 16000 and 18.000 euro's. NO.

 I think equipment of that price have a higher impact on sound. especially source/amp combo is important and amp/headphone combo.

 Cables are a nice finishing touch; some are better then others, but i think nowhere justifying 18.000 euro's.


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## n4k33n

I hope to God in 6 months I have everything I need for my system so I don't delude myself into thinking that I need silver power cables and "Brilliant Pebbles" (<LOL).


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Agent Kang* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HUGE? 

 HUGE you say? 

 You either need to get your hearing checked or learn a new set of adjectives to describe what's around you.

 HUGE is the word describe the difference in what you hear when the power switch is on or off on your amp; HUGE is the difference between a noisy, broken tube and a working tube; HUGE is the adjective to use to describe the transformation Optimus Prime from a truck to a robot.

 To declare the improvement in SQ of a 1m interconnect/power cord differential as "HUGE" not only border on ridiculous; it jumps over the fence, swims across the river, and elopes with my GF.

 There clearly is a well-defined market for snake oils. C'est la vie._

 

I also experimented extensively with IC'S and powercables but i didn't hear a difference between a longer cable and a smaller cable. Remeber that a ratio of 4:1 isn't heard, so for 1 meter of cable at the left side, you can use 4 meters on the right side of your amp. Go any higher and you get differences in damping factor, wich will alter sound, especially frequency range!

 This was on a website and done by an engeneer, he measured the values and recommended this ratio for speaker cables.

 So 1 meter and 2 meter might just be borderline.

 I heard clear differences between pure copper cables, silverplated cables and pure silver cables.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n4k33n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hope to God in 6 months I have everything I need for my system so I don't delude myself into thinking that I need silver power cables and "Brilliant Pebbles" (<LOL)._

 

I would get silver plated cables if i were you and they ain't that expensive either. Also some silver plated IC's start at 20 buck a pair, so it doesn't have to be that expensive, material does matter though.


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## OverlordXenu

Oh, so Patrick, you don't like to listen to music the way it was supposed to? You like the less-"true" (or neutral) sound.

 tourmaline, why don't you just get those liquid ceramic cables so you don't need to mess with metal at all? Never mine the connectors on either end.


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## bigshot

Don't suggest liquid cables. Patrick will electrocute himself in the bathtub.

 See ya
 Steve


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## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pros aren't the ones using "reference grade" cables. It takes an amateur to put his money in such a wrong place._

 

Sorry, but as a musician with lots of studio experience, you're not completely correct. Yes, it's true, most don't, but it's more of a budget issue. This is not a hobby for these people, it's a business, and any successful business is built on cost effectiveness. This is the same reason that most studios use medium quality microphones and medium quality recording machines. Cabling studios with top of the line stuff is just not feasible for someone who might have four bands a week come in to record a $500 demo tape. Neither is buying top of the line microphones, but this doesn't mean that there is no difference between microphones.

 I have been to a couple of studios that used nice cabling. No, not the $17,000 interconnects, but stuff that was more along the line of Cardas. However, the rates for these studios were VERY high; they mostly catered to major label rock bands who could afford the very best.


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## earwicker7

Is it just me, or are the majority of the cable haters on this topic the same people who think they can get the same sound out of a laptop computer as a high end stereo system?

 To me, this speaks volumes. Nothing against using a computer to listen to music, I do it myself, but there is NO comparison between my PC and my main rig. It seems like these people googled "cable snake oil" and then decided that cutting and pasting makes them an electrical engineer.


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## Agent Kang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it just me, or are the majority of the cable haters on this topic the same people who think they can get the same sound out of a laptop computer as a high end stereo system?

 To me, this speaks volumes. Nothing against using a computer to listen to music, I do it myself, but there is NO comparison between my PC and my main rig. It seems like these people googled "cable snake oil" and then decided that cutting and pasting makes them an electrical engineer._

 

As long as you have a good transport supplemented by a great DAC there is no reason why a PC based system should lose out to a redbook based system. If we're talking vinyl rig then different story; but my impression is that you're referencing a standard redbook system, which in this case, you're clearly wrong.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Agent Kang* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As long as you have a good transport supplemented by a great DAC there is no reason why a PC based system should lose out to a redbook based system._

 

First of all, what PC transport is good? Servicable, sure, but GOOD???

 Secondly, every cable hater here is talking about how it's all power supply, power supply. What kind of a power supply does a PC have?

 This is assinine. I have a gaming rig that is close to $10,000 by Voodoo PC. It's probably one of the best built computers you can get. EVERY part is top of the line. It sounds NOTHING like my main rig.


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## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First of all, what PC transport is good? Servicable, sure, but GOOD???

 Secondly, every cable hater here is talking about how it's all power supply, power supply. What kind of a power supply does a PC have?

 This is assinine. I have a gaming rig that is close to $10,000 by Voodoo PC. It's probably one of the best built computers you can get. EVERY part is top of the line. It sounds NOTHING like my main rig._

 

Hahaha. Voodoo is FAR from the best. You pay much much more than needed. Build yourself a real computer, like someone who is actually into computers would do, and then speak.

 People who refer to their computer performance by price are ridicolous and often don't know the first thing about them, most likely why you bought pre-built.

 Voodoo PC's use far from top of the line parts. They use decent parts, but nothing better than a midrange custom machine built to OC/bench.

 So you should give up on that argument, since computers are definitely what I know much more than you about.

 And computers have much more going for them then most. Use a good quality DAC and play back bit-perfect FLAC files, and you have a great source.


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First of all, what PC transport is good? Servicable, sure, but GOOD???

 Secondly, every cable hater here is talking about how it's all power supply, power supply. What kind of a power supply does a PC have?

 This is assinine. I have a gaming rig that is close to $10,000 by Voodoo PC. It's probably one of the best built computers you can get. EVERY part is top of the line. It sounds NOTHING like my main rig._

 

Yes, good. The purpose of a transport is to get the bits from the CD to your DAC. A computer is excellent at this. Actually, I will go a step further. A computer is _designed_ to do this.

 Furthermore, why do you think that all the features in a $10K gaming PC have anything at all to do with this? A Quad-SLI setup or a Quad-core CPU means nothing when it comes to audio.

 Also, about power supplies. If you think your power supply is introducing so much noise that it introduces unacceptable errors in a measly 24/96 audio signal, how can you possible trust it to run any other component in your computer? Your CPU is probably running at 2GHz+, and some Bus lanes even faster.

 The amount of engineering that goes into your ordinary computer is astronomical. I don't get why people think that a measly digital audio signal is somehow harder then, let's say, a load balancer being fed by a 10Gbps fibre connection.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, good. The purpose of a transport is to get the bits from the CD to your DAC. A computer is excellent at this. Actually, I will go a step further. A computer is designed to do this.

 Furthermore, why do you think that all the features in a $10K gaming PC have anything at all to do with this? A Quad-SLI setup or a Quad-core CPU means nothing when it comes to audio.

 Also, about power supplies. If you think your power supply is introducing so much noise that it introduces unacceptable errors in a measly 24/96 audio signal, how can you possible trust it to run any other component in your computer? Your CPU is probably running at 2GHz+, and some Bus lanes even faster.

 The amount of engineering that goes into your ordinary computer is astronomical. I don't get why people think that a measly digital audio signal is somehow harder then, let's say, a load balancer being fed by a 10Gbps fibre connection._

 

Some very good points indeed.


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## Agent Kang

Quote:


 First of all, what PC transport is good? Servicable, sure, but GOOD??? 
 

http://www.slimdevices.com/

  Quote:


 Secondly, every cable hater here is talking about how it's all power supply, power supply. What kind of a power supply does a PC have? 
 

Go to the benchmark forum or even the main benchmark thread here in head-fi. 

  Quote:


 This is assinine. I have a gaming rig that is close to $10,000 by Voodoo PC. It's probably one of the best built computers you can get. EVERY part is top of the line. It sounds NOTHING like my main rig. 
 

What a joke.

 Reading your last post, I can no longer take you seriously.

 Oh, another thing, re-read Chu's last post. Alteast he seems to know What he's talking about.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hahaha. Voodoo is FAR from the best. You pay much much more than needed. Build yourself a real computer, like someone who is actually into computers would do, and then speak.

 People who refer to their computer performance by price are ridicolous and often don't know the first thing about them, most likely why you bought pre-built.

 Voodoo PC's use far from top of the line parts. They use decent parts, but nothing better than a midrange custom machine built to OC/bench.

 So you should give up on that argument, since computers are definitely what I know much more than you about.

 And computers have much more going for them then most. Use a good quality DAC and play back bit-perfect FLAC files, and you have a great source._

 

Cool. Could you give me your company's website? I'm always on the lookout for new computers, and it sounds like you have a successful business building them. Can I find ads for your company in the computer magazines? I'm sure you've probably received some great reviews; I'd love to see them.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool. Could you give me your company's website? I'm always on the lookout for new computers, and it sounds like you have a successful business building them. Can I find ads for your company in the computer magazines? I'm sure you've probably received some great reviews; I'd love to see them._

 

Self built computers are MUCH better than pre-built. 

 When you get into overclocking you get performance you can't buy.

 Take a look at www.xtremesystem.org

 The people you will find there are much more knowledgeable than any person at voodoo or the likes.

 It is where all of the big guys in the industry are.


 But, your response shows your ignorance about computers even more.

 Don't worry though that you aren't able to build your own computer or mod/overclock it. I've only been doing it since I was 14. Guess thats why you believe in snake oil though.


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool. Could you give me your company's website? I'm always on the lookout for new computers, and it sounds like you have a successful business building them. Can I find ads for your company in the computer magazines? I'm sure you've probably received some great reviews; I'd love to see them._

 

I honestly can't decide if you're a troll or completely ignorant.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, good. The purpose of a transport is to get the bits from the CD to your DAC. A computer is excellent at this. Actually, I will go a step further. A computer is designed to do this._

 

No, your computer is designed to do this AND 25 other things at the same time. Now, I'm not a highly paid computer designer with a successful business that dwarfs Voodoo PC like you guys are, but unless I'm mistaken, there is no modern operating system that is dedicated to only producing music. Well, no operating system other than that in a CD player, but that's besides the point
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 . Sure, there are computers with multiple CPUs, but you have to have software designed to take advantage of this, and I don't think there is any such software dedicated to playing music. In the absense of this, your operating system is switching back and forth between playing music, checking to make sure the antivirus program is working, sending a signal to the video card, running 15 redundant Microsoft programs, etc. I'm sure that on paper it is possible to do this with no hiccups, but in reality, how many operating systems do you know that don't constantly have issues? They don't issue patches and drivers for no reason. Also, as your system ages and operating systems get more complicated, it's going to get slower. I'll still be listening to my Opus 21 thirty years from now. I guarantee that by that time you will have spent ten times more money keeping up with upgrades than I spent on my CD player.

 Maybe it's not important for you to have a perfect reproduction of the music. But it is for me. If you really believe in A/B testing, I don't know why you can't accept that I own a nice computer and a nice stereo and I know for a fact that one sounds better than the other. Do you guys have both, or are you just parroting what others tell you?


----------



## Alleyman

Quote:


 Also, as your system ages and operating systems get more complicated, it's going to get slower 
 

Umm, people can also either stay with the OS that is suitable for their aging hardware or upgrade the hardware to run the more "complicated" OS.


----------



## earwicker7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Alleyman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Umm, people can also either stay with the OS that is suitable for their aging hardware or upgrade the hardware to run the more "complicated" OS._

 

That's true, I guess. I don't think most people want to stick with old stuff, though. I loved Windows95, I think it was the most stable version that I've ever run, but it would be a nightmare trying to run that OS right now. Nothing would work.


----------



## jsaliga

The ultimate audiophile tweak! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --Jerome


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jsaliga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 The ultimate audiophile tweak! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --Jerome_

 

One of the few tweaks I will vouch for!


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earwicker7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now, I'm not a highly paid computer designer with a successful business that dwarfs Voodoo PC like you guys are, but unless I'm mistaken, there is no modern operating system that is dedicated to only producing music._

 

Actually, this is not strictly true. BeOS was pretty much designed with multimedia in mind. I honestly don't know much more about it then what's on the wiki page, but supposedly a lot of the OSX kernel was based on it.


----------

