# best interconnect for the bang? (better than bluejean)



## TempleOfEar

hi guys im wanting to replace my old bluejean canare interconnects for something better. however it is my understanding that bluejeans offer the best bang for the buck. but i still want something better while not having to pay premium. can you guys help me out with some recommandation? thanks. oh also ill be selling the bluejean interconnects once i upgrade. theyre 3 feet length.


----------



## sejarzo

What's wrong with the BJC?


----------



## chesebert

your budget?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TempleOfEar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi guys im wanting to replace my old bluejean canare interconnects for something better. however it is my understanding that bluejeans offer the best bang for the buck. but i still want something better while not having to pay premium. can you guys help me out with some recommandation? thanks. oh also ill be selling the bluejean interconnects once i upgrade. theyre 3 feet length._

 

Let me know and I will get them, if they are in good shape, and you are willing to sell them for a good price...


----------



## vcoheda

nothing is better than BJC. :eyeroll:


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_nothing is better than BJC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

You are absolutelly right, not for that price, and not better than the ones I have tried far more expensive...


----------



## krmathis

The Signal Cable Silver Resolution are the best bang for buck interconnect I have heard.
 Not quite on par with the RSAD Poiema!!! Signature sound wise, but its imo a bargain for $140.


----------



## TempleOfEar

i think im gonna try my hand with signal cable silver. should i get the silver bullets or copper? $40 is a lot to consider for me.


----------



## IPodPJ

Cobalt Cable is excellent and is only about twice the price of BJC. Try them out and if you don't like the product you have 90 days to return it. All cables are custom built to order.

HDMI Cables, Audio Cables & Audio Patch Cables - Cobalt Cable

 On checkout, enter coupon word SHARESAVE and you will get 15% off the price.


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TempleOfEar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi guys im wanting to replace my old bluejean canare interconnects for something better. however it is my understanding that bluejeans offer the best bang for the buck. but i still want something better while not having to pay premium. can you guys help me out with some recommandation? thanks. oh also ill be selling the bluejean interconnects once i upgrade. theyre 3 feet length._

 

try searching ebay for "interconnects" should bring up a lot of decent cables for cheap prices


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TempleOfEar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi guys im wanting to replace my old bluejean canare interconnects for something better. however it is my understanding that bluejeans offer the best bang for the buck. but i still want something better while not having to pay premium. can you guys help me out with some recommandation?_

 

The only way to get a better deal than "best bang for the buck" is to get it for free. Perhaps some high end company will IM you and offer you cables for free if you chat them up in this forum.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TempleOfEar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi guys im wanting to replace my old bluejean canare interconnects for something better. however it is my understanding that bluejeans offer the best bang for the buck. but i still want something better while not having to pay premium. can you guys help me out with some recommandation? thanks. oh also ill be selling the bluejean interconnects once i upgrade. theyre 3 feet length._

 

Are you having problems with the Blue Jeans, or are you just looking to try something different? If you're just looking for something different, you'd do well to ask for loaners or test cables from companies. See if you can hear a difference before you buy.

 Also, consider the used cable market. At Audiogon, used ones seem to go for 25% to 50% of retail.


----------



## noseallinit

has anyone ever used RamElectronics RCA to Mini or Mini to Mini interconnects? they seem like a pretty good bang for the buck company using Belden and Mogami cable.

 me been curious about them and BlueJeans since before I got me EarCandy Mini to Mini. how they may compare to me Ear Candy. I'm in need for a RCA to Mini because I need to get away from this Z1 and RCA to Mini adapter. I really want an EarCandy so I will be using the alike interconnects with the same signature. I really like the EarCandy over the Cardas HPI I was using but if the RamElectronics or BlueJeans are as good why not..


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TempleOfEar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i think im gonna try my hand with signal cable silver. should i get the silver bullets or copper? $40 is a lot to consider for me._

 

Great choice!
 I would go with silver bullets (hence my $140 price quote), to have a cable with silver all the way in the signal path. But you and your wallet have to decide.


----------



## dura

a Kimber PBJ!
 Make it a DIY and you might up paying even less then a BJC.


----------



## Ted Goldie

There is a guy in Montreal that makes a cable called the Ultimate Cable. It is a cryoed copper and silver cable. I really like it and it is a lot better than my regular copper cables. It is around $45. I think it is sold on ebay and they also have a web site. You can also send it back if you do not like it. I am keeping mine. I found it on Canuck Audio classified. Give this cable a chance to burn in, I found the sound really changed.


----------



## TempleOfEar

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ted Goldie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is a guy in Montreal that makes a cable called the Ultimate Cable. It is a cryoed copper and silver cable. I really like it and it is a lot better than my regular copper cables. It is around $45. I think it is sold on ebay and they also have a web site. You can also send it back if you do not like it. I am keeping mine. I found it on Canuck Audio classified. Give this cable a chance to burn in, I found the sound really changed._

 

yes, thats the cables that i came across and started me on an idea to upgrade the bjc. the ad sounds very convincing but the fact that he only has one published review thats not very enthusiastic is a bit of a letdown for me. would you say the sound has gotten brighter? i heard silvers do that and i dont want that at all.


----------



## Ted Goldie

At first they were really bright, but after some burn-in they settled down. I really notice they have better midrange as well. You can send them back after 30 days so what's to lose. That is the way I approached the cable. They also have reviews of the cable on Canuck Audio Classified and these people really liked the cable. As the maker of the cable says people are not sending them back. He also has some reviews on his site. But as I said make sure you burn them in at least 30 hours. The connections are really tight on my setup so I found an old piece of equipment and loosened them up a bit. That being said they are brighter than just plain copper. When I go back to my copper cable and listen something is missing now and I go back to using the Ultimates.


----------



## compuryan

Silver Resolution is the way to go, and definitely go for the bullets. They're great.

 Although not my #1 choice, Homegrown Audio Co. | pure silver audio cables also has some excellent cables too, so check them out.


----------



## vcoheda

anything other than this is a waste of money.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anything other than this is a waste of money.




_

 

Obviously that's B.S. Just because you can't hear a difference (with your ears or your system) doesn't mean there aren't any. If there was no difference, people wouldn't spend money on better cables.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously that's B.S. Just because you can't hear a difference (with your ears or your system) doesn't mean there aren't any. If there was no difference, people wouldn't spend money on better cables._

 

No offense, but are you very young? That is a very odd thing to say, unless you're joking or something.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No offense, but are you very young? That is a very odd thing to say, unless you're joking or something.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

It's not an odd thing to say at all. These circular arguments always end up in the same place. And you're the worst proponent of them all (and add to that your arrogance). Your 30 years in the recording industry obviously hasn't taught you how to use your ears and listen to the music, only how to read charts and spec sheets.


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously that's B.S. Just because you can't hear a difference (with your ears or your system) doesn't mean there aren't any. If there was no difference, people wouldn't spend money on better cables. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This argument is the worst argument ever and it makes me laugh everytime someone brings it up.

 People wouldnt spend money on holy water from TV infomercials if it didnt make a difference!

 People wouldnt spend money on homeopathic pills if they didnt make a difference!

 People wouldnt spend money on male enlargement pills if it didnt make a difference!


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gotchaforce* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This argument is the worst argument ever and it makes me laugh everytime someone brings it up.

 People wouldnt spend money on holy water from TV infomercials if it didnt make a difference!

 People wouldnt spend money on homeopathic pills if they didnt make a difference!

 People wouldnt spend money on male enlargement pills if it didnt make a difference!_

 

Ok, well you've got a point. What I meant to say was that so many audio hobbyists who "listen" to the music wouldn't be constantly buying the cables if they weren't doing anything. And in my system, they most certainly do.


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, well you've got a point. What I meant to say was that so many audio hobbyists who "listen" to the music wouldn't be constantly buying the cables if they weren't doing anything. And in my system, they most certainly do._

 

Then why don't audio professionals who also listen and care very deeply for sound quality use anything other than trusty old PVC, copper, and nickel?

 --Chris


----------



## jcx

re Radio Shack's cheapest - even a hard core numbers only guy expects there to be better objective performance cable out there

 from inspecting the results of having more than one come apart as it gripped too tighly it is obvious that the sheild is not 360 degree terminated under that moulding

 360 degree sheild termination and high coverage, high conductivitiy sheild is essential to good performance in RCA-RCA cable

 its also a major convienience if they don't break apart when unplugged by hand

 PVC over mould/outer jacket is no problem or even for line-line in low impedance speaker runs but PVC does have measureable deficencies as a dielectric - I think you will find many instrumentation cables use at least polypropylene internal insulation for even audio frequencies with polyethylene or teflon for hi Z source, video, or runs of substantial length


----------



## Sovkiller

IPodPJ, don't be so sure you will hear the differences, I have seen guys, audiophiles and not, fail miserably in front of me, while trying to indentify gear, and cables, OK? Even claim to hear difference while they should not hear any, trust me that placebo is stronger of what you believe, not saying that they can not make an small difference, just that if they are, are so subtle, that is not so easy to indentify them...

 I would like to see a couple of Golden Ears that are posting all the time about those claimed differences in one of those "forbiden word" tests to see how they will handle it...

Here you have a few articles for your entertainment...

 Read especially this one, I have seen this happen several times in my life, the latest was the million dollar challenge, in while the moment comes, the cable manufacturer back up...afraid of the truth?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's not an odd thing to say at all._

 

Your logic doesn't make sense.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just because you can't hear a difference (with your ears or your system) doesn't mean there aren't any._

 

No, if you can't hear or measure a difference, it doesn't indicate that there IS one. And if you can't hear it or measure the difference, it doesn't matter at all because you can't hear it or measure it.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If there was no difference, people wouldn't spend money on better cables._

 

There are several reasons why people would spend money on cables besides sound... build quality, aesthetics, status, durability, brand identification...

 I asked if you were young and you didn't answer. May I ask if you are still in school?

 Thanks
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so many audio hobbyists who "listen" to the music wouldn't be constantly buying the cables if they weren't doing anything. And in my system, they most certainly do._

 

I don't doubt that your cables sound great. All I am saying is that just about every cable, if it is properly constructed, sounds great.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jcx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_from inspecting the results of having more than one come apart as it gripped too tighly it is obvious that the sheild is not 360 degree terminated under that moulding_

 

Are you talking about the gold Radio Shack cables? Those grab on WAY too hard. I hate those with a passion. I haven't had any problems at all like that with the standard grade ones.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Uncle Erik

IpodPJ, have you seen this?

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/bl...esults-190566/

 The members here had a tough time telling the difference between cables. Testing conditions weren't rigorous; people were allowed to use them in their systems as they saw fit and had plenty of time to listen.

 Even then, the results were about the same as random guessing. I know of no other test where people have been able to tell the difference between cables. This controversy has been brewing for a good 20 years and still, no one has been able to pass a test.

 Say what you want about blind testing, but if the results are "obvious" and "night and day," then the people who hear that should still be able to without seeing the cable. The claim is that the sound different, not that a cable looks different. A visible logo shouldn't change anything, right?

 Also consider that excellent test tools have been available for a good 50 years. As far as I know, no manufacturer has actually _tested_ their cables and shown the difference between their product and the competition. Look at cable ads: 100% testimonials and soft claims. Nothing that can be actually proven.

 Very, very curious. How come all other products, from cars to washing machines, from concrete to steel, are qualitatively measured and tested? Why are amps and speakers tested, but cables are not?

 What would the benefits of testing be? If you could show your product to be better than the competition, then you would have a marketing and sales advantage. Why don't cable companies do this? It's not a secret. Ask the salesman at your car dealer. He'll tell you how his cars stack up against the competition, and with hard numbers. Ask the admissions department at a university. They will give you hard figures about admissions and everything you would want to know about the school.

 Another industry that hides behind soft claims and testimonials is quack medicine. Do you really think a magic herbal pill will cure cancer, as well? Do you believe in testing pharmaceuticals?


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anything other than this is a waste of money.

http://www.ace4parts.com/images/prod...G34_medium.jpg_

 

There's enough trolling without your sarcasm every other page, man.


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously that's B.S. Just because you can't hear a difference (with your ears or your system) doesn't mean there aren't any. If there was no difference, people wouldn't spend money on better cables. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

there are so many logical fallacies in your post that the best response to it would be to recommend you take a course in logic at your local university


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, if you can't hear or measure a difference, it doesn't indicate that there IS one. And if you can't hear it or measure the difference, it doesn't matter at all because you can't hear it or measure it._

 

I said if *YOU* can't hear it.

  Quote:


 I asked if you were young and you didn't answer. May I ask if you are still in school? 
 

Why is my age important to you? I'm almost 30.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ, don't be so sure you will hear the differences, I have seen guys, audiophiles and not, fail miserably in front of me, while trying to indentify gear, and cables, OK? Even claim to hear difference while they should not hear any, trust me that placebo is stronger of what you believe, not saying that they can not make an small difference, just that if they are, are so subtle, that is not so easy to indentify them..._

 

Alberto,
 I have no doubt I would fail a test with trying to identify cables in someone else's system. Anyone who claims they can identify what you've switched in someone else's system is full of crap.
 I can tell the difference in MY system because I've spent countless hours with it. I've switched my cables back and forth so many times that I know exactly what MY cables sound like in MY system.
 It's very possible that in someone else's system with other equipment that a good cable will make no difference at all. That is not the case though with MY system.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IpodPJ, have you seen this?

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/bl...esults-190566/

 The members here had a tough time telling the difference between cables. Testing conditions weren't rigorous; people were allowed to use them in their systems as they saw fit and had plenty of time to listen._

 

Yes, I've read that. That test was rather pointless since it only gathers information about people's expectations of what certain materials sound like. I've heard copper cables that sound better than silver cables, so I don't think you can give a definitive answer of what a certain metal will sound like. Different cables sound different in different systems.

 What is funny is how people describe copper and silver. They say copper has a warm sound while silver is bright. Have you ever noticed how the words they use to describe that cable's sonic signature resemble the way they look? THAT is placebo at work. I don't believe you can give a description of a cable's sonic signature. You can only give a description of how your system sounds with that particular cable in place.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, I've read that. That test was rather pointless since it only gathers information about people's expectations of what certain materials sound like. I've heard copper cables that sound better than silver cables, so I don't think you can give a definitive answer of what a certain metal will sound like. Different cables sound different in different systems.

 What is funny is how people describe copper and silver. They say copper has a warm sound while silver is bright. Have you ever noticed how the words they use to describe that cable's sonic signature resemble the way they look? THAT is placebo at work. I don't believe you can give a description of a cable's sonic signature. You can only give a description of how your system sounds with that particular cable in place._

 

The conclusion of that test showed for the majority of the participants, a completely random result, and if it is true they were asked for the materials of the cable, but regardless of what they believe the sound should be, the silver one definitelly should sound better than the RS, according to the audiophile standards, that consider that the RS as one of the worst cables on earth as well.

 Silver is a better conductor, and it was manufactured decently by Edwood, and as you said, it may sound wrong in a given setup due to the synergy, but in all of them? They believed, and they conclude, in the majority of the cases, that the silver one was the RS, in other words, the silver cable in all the setups but one, sounded worst than the other two...Does that ring any bell to you???


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alberto,
 I have no doubt I would fail a test with trying to identify cables in someone else's system. Anyone who claims they can identify what you've switched in someone else's system is full of crap.
 I can tell the difference in MY system because I've spent countless hours with it. I've switched my cables back and forth so many times that I know exactly what MY cables sound like in MY system.
 It's very possible that in someone else's system with other equipment that a good cable will make no difference at all. That is not the case though with MY system._

 

It is a real shame, that we lived so far...otherwise I would pay you a visit, if you let me, of course, with a few set of cables, to see how you will handle the test, but till this happen, you can say what you want, and claim what you want, and nothing is proved either way, as the test should be done first...


----------



## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's enough trolling without your sarcasm every other page, man._

 

but according to some people here, it's true. no?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is a real shame, that we lived so far...otherwise I would pay you a visit, if you let me, of course, with a few set of cables, to see how you will handle the test, but till this happen, you can say what you want, and claim what you want, and nothing is proved either way, as the test should be done first..._

 

I would like to go a meet one of these days and bring my equipment so we could do that. But then the variables change, because the power could be a whole lot cleaner than it is in my apartment. So I guess we would have to do it here.

 Sure, I'd test out any cables you'd bring. But I never claimed I would be able to identify what they are made out of. I would only be able to tell which one sounds the best, after about a week listening to it in my system. And I guarantee you would be able to hear the difference between my tinfoil-wrapped Master LE and either my stock cable or the well-built Cobalt Cable. And chances are your amp sounds a lot better than mine anyway. The Opera is very particular of what you put into it (it's served it's purpose thusfar but I think I will eventually have to replace it with a discrete amp). The electric in my apartment building is so poor.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure, I'd test out any cables you'd bring. But I never claimed I would be able to identify what they are made out of. I would only be able to tell which one sounds the best, after about a week listening to it in my system. And I guarantee you would be able to hear the difference between my tinfoil-wrapped Master LE and either my stock cable or the well-built Cobalt Cable. And chances are your amp sounds a lot better than mine anyway. The Opera is very particular of what you put into it. The electric in my apartment building is so poor._

 

LOL...You are very smart, now you are changing the terms, nope, I do not need the material, all I want is you to indentify your cables in your system.. (we never discussed to select which is better or worst after a week...who cares about that?)

 You said that you can identify your cables in your system, right? 

_"...I can tell the difference in MY system because I've spent countless hours with it. I've switched my cables back and forth so many times that *I know exactly what MY cables sound like in MY system*..."_

 So all I want from you is to do *what you are claiming*, nothing else, in a trully double blind test using *your system, you should be able to indentify your cables*, as you stated... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will be at the FL meeting, for a whole week in the hotel, you are welcome anyday if you go there...

 Again is a real shame I could not meet you, to go for the test...Becasue trust me, that you, as anybody else, will fail miserably...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL...You are very smart, now you are changing the terms, nope, I do not need the material, all I want is you to indentify your cables in your system.. (we never discussed to select which is better or worst after a week...who cares about that?)

 You said that you can identify your cables in your system, right?_

 

I'm not changing any terms. You said you wanted to bring cables with you. I can identify my own cables in my own system.

  Quote:


 So all I want from you is to do *what you are claiming*, nothing else, in a trully double blind test using *your system, you should be able to indentify your cables*, as you stated... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

You betcha.

  Quote:


 I will be at the FL meeting, for a whole week in the hotel, you are welcome anyday if you go there... 
 

Well that's not going to happen. I'm in Cali. But I was born in Florida and lived there for five years. Only returned once since, when I was 12. I would like to go back again because I remembered I liked it. But way too humid.

  Quote:


 Again is a real shame I could not meet you, to go for the test...Becasue trust me, that you, as anybody else, will fail miserably...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

Well that started off sounding nice, and then you had to go and ruin it with a snobby comment. Why do you guys seem to forget that I was of the same opinion as ALL of you skeptics. Go back and read some of my old posts. I only discovered that cables and power cords made a difference after *I listened to them in MY system with my own ears.*

 There's a reason Stereophile and Absolute Sound give reviews of *amps and CD players* with high end cables. I'm not talking about the reviews of the cables where they could be biased due to the advertising of the manufacturers. I'm talking about the reviews of the amps and CD players. If they made no difference, surely one of the reviewers after all these years would let the cat out of the bag on the internet or by telling one of their friends.


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's a reason Stereophile and Absolute Sound give reviews of *amps and CD players* with high end cables. I'm not talking about the reviews of the cables where they could be biased due to the advertising of the manufacturers. I'm talking about the reviews of the amps and CD players. If they made no difference, surely one of the reviewers after all these years would let the cat out of the bag on the internet or by telling one of their friends._

 

Yeah its too bad those stereophile reviewers werent offered something ridiculous like $1,000,000 to find the difference between cables and backed off.

 I mean how ridiculous would that be if a reveiwer from stereophile, someone who HAS to have a "golden ear", would turn down the chance for a million dollars and all they have to do is identify the better cable!?!?

 I can only imagine what that would say about the golden ears of our industry and their faith in cables...


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anything other than this is a waste of money.




_

 

I really don't understand what you're trying to accomplish with your posts, lately. Are you trying to troll? Be sarcastic? Am I missing something?

 We all know you like your cables, VD, Nordost, Cardas, etc. all liven up your profile.

 Seriously. I thought you would be above trolling.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well that started off sounding nice, and then you had to go and ruin it with a snobby comment. Why do you guys seem to forget that I was of the same opinion as ALL of you skeptics. Go back and read some of my old posts. I only discovered that cables and power cords made a difference after *I listened to them in MY system with my own ears.*

 There's a reason Stereophile and Absolute Sound give reviews of *amps and CD players* with high end cables. I'm not talking about the reviews of the cables where they could be biased due to the advertising of the manufacturers. I'm talking about the reviews of the amps and CD players. If they made no difference, surely one of the reviewers after all these years would let the cat out of the bag on the internet or by telling one of their friends._

 

Stereophile do my laundry, man, they advertise what they are paid for, it is a business, period, also do not forget that reviewers are like you and me, a common person, and trust me that most of the times with *more luck than ears*, and get paid to do them. Of course they know how to write a bunch of words very nicely put together, but that if you analyze closely, most of the times say nothing, something like: creamy mids, liquid sound, chocolaty highs, dark backgrounds, tight bass, etc....all of them say the same, more or less...same verbiage all the time.

 IMO to get paid to do a review do not make them more qualified than any of us, BTW some of the members here, have been involved in audio more the 20-30 years...so what? Are they better?

 Do you think that I have not tried myself more expensive cables, recently I sold my last high-end cable, you know why, I needed the money to fund the LISA, and they sounded exactly the same as one that cost me $15.00...so it makes no sense for me to keep it.

 If you still do not believe me, I have here the WireWorld cable comparator CD, I can send you a copy if you like, in which they recorded the same track using 17 different types of cables, it was the same track using the same machines in an studio, 24 bits pro machines, if the cables made a difference this difference should be recorded, and I'm not saying brighter, warmer or better, just different, you should hear those differences, sorry but I do not, and none of the ones who have heard it that I know of have been able neither...
 I encourage you to find the differences between the cables, in the CD, and they use from Monster to Valhalla's, all prices of cables, so if any, should be there, OK?


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gotchaforce* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah its too bad those stereophile reviewers werent offered something ridiculous like $1,000,000 to find the difference between cables and backed off.

 I mean how ridiculous would that be if a reveiwer from stereophile, someone who HAS to have a "golden ear", would turn down the chance for a million dollars and all they have to do is identify the better cable!?!?

 I can only imagine what that would say about the golden ears of our industry and their faith in cables..._

 

That bogus contest was touched upon so many times on the net and here in this forum. The contest was just as bogus as the cable company (Pear) that volunteered for it.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you still do not believe me, I have here the WireWorld cable comparator CD, I can send you a copy if you like, in which they recorded the same track using 17 different types of cables, it was the same track using the same machines in an studio, 24 bits pro machines, if the cables made a difference this difference should be recorded, and I'm not saying brighter, warmer or better, just different, you should hear those differences, sorry but I do not, and none of the ones who have heard it that I know of have been able neither...
 I encourage you to find the differences between the cables, in the CD, and they use from Monster to Valhalla's, all prices of cables, so if any, should be there, OK?_

 

Are they testing for a reduction in jitter? Are they checking to make sure the clock signal is timed properly between the bits?

 If jitter and a poorly timed clock signal plague your system, it has no bearing on how many bits will be transmitted and received. Bits are not the problem. Jitter and clock signal (which is analog) will have a dramatic effect on what you hear, and noise contributes to those problems. The difference between a collapsed soundstage and the ability to hear decay in the notes could be the difference of 10 picoseconds (or less) of jitter.

 These things might be harder to discern with a speaker system because you have the speakers aimed at you, get crossfeed between the two, and hopefully the drivers are time aligned. Headphone listening is unnatural for the human brain, so all these minor upgrades in sonics wind up making a huge difference in how we perceive the music; how much more natural and like real life it sounds.

 I don't have enough experience with high-end analog interconnects to know how much they affect the sound. I know I have a pair of Cobalt analog interconnects which sound better than my stock interconnects, but they don't have nearly the impact that the upgraded digital cable has.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That bogus contest was touched upon so many times on the net and here in this forum. The contest was just as bogus as the cable company (Pear) that volunteered for it._

 

The contest may have been bogus. Randi may be a big jerk.

 But neither is a reason not to go through with an ABX test. If _Stereophile_ wanted to make a point, they should have done a test on their own. I'm sure they could have found a university willing to lend a few credible engineers and psychology Ph.D.s to set up and correctly administer the test.

 Had they done that, they could have proven Randi wrong. They could have proven the skeptics wrong.

 But they didn't. Nothing stops them from testing cables. Except for the possibility the results might put them on a 100% crow diet and destroy a large part of their advertising revenue.


----------



## IPodPJ

I am all for the testing. I think new methods should be undertaken that can test for things like jitter potential, actual jitter determined by X cable, differences in clock signal -- time of departure and time of arrival, clock signal accuracy from point A to point B, noise levels reduced by X cable, etc.

 But lets say you do all of that testing on one or two systems. That's great, but the results in someone elses system will be completely different. So how would you establish a benchmark?


----------



## Tokenganjaclan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anything other than this is a waste of money.





_

 

I Like The Gold Tips Better


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Obviously that's B.S. Just because you can't hear a difference (with your ears or your system) doesn't mean there aren't any. If there was no difference, people wouldn't spend money on better cables. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there are so many logical fallacies in your post that the best response to it would be to recommend you take a course in logic at your local university _

 

IpodPJ is not completely wrong here....correct me if I am wrong. 

 The next step from 'Just because you can't hear a difference doesn't mean there aren't any.' is to put it in the right format: 'you can't hear a difference != no difference' 

 Even if you can't draw any conclusions from that, you can draw some useful inferences. As in 'If there is no difference then you can't hear a difference' and 'If you can hear a difference then there must be a difference' 

 What follows from that is 'well, if there is really no difference, which means you can't hear a difference, why are you spending money on the _no difference_? The converse (from preceding paragraph) is if you can hear a difference, then there must be a difference, and it suddenly make sense why people spend money on the difference - cuz they can hear it!


----------



## TempleOfEar

that was ridiculous. i just read thru the last 4 pages of my thread and there was nothing but rant and arguing. this thread outlived its usefulness after someone mentioned silver resolution. im gonna go order them right now.


----------



## Manny Calavera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TempleOfEar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that was ridiculous. i just read thru the last 4 pages of my thread and there was nothing but rant and arguing. this thread outlived its usefulness after someone mentioned silver resolution. im gonna go order them right now._

 



 I disagree,I think this was one of the better threads where this topic has been debated on here over the years.


----------



## Chronos

I'm kinda new to head-fi but I know among musicians especially guitarists, good cables cost top $ and they truly make a difference. I've tested them myself and it isn't so subtle that its a placebo effect. There is a night and day difference between cables. Like stock buds vs Super5Pros (what I have as an analogy)

 Wouldn't this be true among audiophiles too?


----------



## gotchaforce

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chronos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm kinda new to head-fi but I know among musicians especially guitarists, good cables cost top $ and they truly make a difference. I've tested them myself and it isn't so subtle that its a placebo effect. There is a night and day difference between cables. Like stock buds vs Super5Pros (what I have as an analogy)

 Wouldn't this be true among audiophiles too?_

 

the good cables cost a lot of money and probably look nice too (monster or such)... not placebo effect at all eh??


----------



## meat01

Quote:


 There is a night and day difference between cables. 
 

Most people here, (skeptics and pro cable people) believe that cables do not contribute more than 5% of the overall sound quality and that the changes are subtle.

 That is the reason they are so heavily debated


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are they testing for a reduction in jitter? Are they checking to make sure the clock signal is timed properly between the bits?

 If jitter and a poorly timed clock signal plague your system, it has no bearing on how many bits will be transmitted and received. Bits are not the problem. Jitter and clock signal (which is analog) will have a dramatic effect on what you hear, and noise contributes to those problems. The difference between a collapsed soundstage and the ability to hear decay in the notes could be the difference of 10 picoseconds (or less) of jitter.

 These things might be harder to discern with a speaker system because you have the speakers aimed at you, get crossfeed between the two, and hopefully the drivers are time aligned. Headphone listening is unnatural for the human brain, so all these minor upgrades in sonics wind up making a huge difference in how we perceive the music; how much more natural and like real life it sounds.

 I don't have enough experience with high-end analog interconnects to know how much they affect the sound. I know I have a pair of Cobalt analog interconnects which sound better than my stock interconnects, but they don't have nearly the impact that the upgraded digital cable has._

 

Impact in digital cables? OMG, what will be next!!! 

 They were testing analog cables, of course, not digital. In digital cables it is IMO completely absurd to speak of any difference, that is one of the advantages of the digital domain, there no degradation on the signal transmission, no degradation from one copy to the other, simply the signal is the same all the time, one and zero can not be improved or degraded, it is either conducting, or it is not...if you hear a difference one of them must be defective...period!!!


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most people here, (skeptics and pro cable people) believe that cables do not contribute more than 5% of the overall sound quality and that the changes are subtle.

 That is the reason they are so heavily debated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

What about ot reduce the impact even more, to 1-2% maybe....


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Impact in digital cables? OMG, what will be next!!! 

 They were testing analog cables, of course, not digital. In digital cables it is IMO completely absurd to speak of any difference, that is one of the advantages of the digital domain, there no degradation on the signal transmission, no degradation from one copy to the other, simply the signal is the same all the time, one and zero can not be improved or degraded, it is either conducting, or it is not...if you hear a difference one of them must be defective...period!!!




 What about ot reduce the impact even more, to 1-2% maybe.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 You cant understand how cables can make a difference so you declare they dont. But, you can go on and on, endlessly, about the need for burn in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Myself, if there were ever something I would attribute to placebo .... it would be burn in. I remember when I disliked those totally weird sounding Ultrasone 2500's. I was told they need 300,400 or whatever hours of burn in and the presentaion will be transformed. Well a few weeks ago ... I heard a well burnt in pair (600 hour estimate) and the 2500's sounded just as awful as the first time I heard them .... and this was out of three different setups. So much for burn in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have also tried a brand new 701 vs a 701 with well over 500 hours burn in. I twisted the cords out of two completely identical setups and I could not tell them apart. The only hint they were different was the feel of the pads. But, if I ignored the feel of the pads and concentrated on the music I just could not tell them apart. Burn in, IMO, seems to be claim put forth to make people keep a product they dont really like in hopes their ears will finally come to accept the products aversive presentation.

 Furthermore, back to your original statement, I have a couple different digital cables I am using right now with three Zhalou dacs and there is an unmistakeable difference. One, cable I like and one I dont. As soon as I put the non-preferred cable in the dynamics compress and the sound seems closed in and canned. I dont know how such a difference could be any easier to distinguish. Why? No clue .... but I have repeated the same preferance atleast six times. 

 The moral of the story? Skip the preconceived notions and theories and to take the time to listen.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You cant understand how cables can make a difference so you declare they dont. But, you can go on and on, endlessly, about the need for burn in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Myself, if there were ever something I would attribute to placebo .... it would be burn in. I remember when I disliked those totally weird sounding Ultrasone 2500's. I was told they need 300,400 or whatever hours of burn in and the presentaion will be transformed. Well a few weeks ago ... I heard a well burnt in pair (600 hour estimate) and the 2500's sounded just as awful as the first time I heard them .... and this was out of three different setups. So much for burn in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have also tried a brand new 701 vs a 701 with well over 500 hours burn in. I twisted the cords out of two completely identical setups and I could not tell them apart. The only hint they were different was the feel of the pads. But, if I ignored the feel of the pads and concentrated on the music I just could not tell them apart. Burn in, IMO, seems to be claim put forth to make people keep a product they dont really like in hopes their ears will finally come to accept the products aversive presentation._

 

I completely agree with you. I think burn-in is the most damaging aspect of audiophoolia, simply because it can take you past the return period so you can't return whatever in case you don't like it.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You cant understand how cables can make a difference so you declare they dont. But, you can go on and on, endlessly, about the need for burn in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Myself, if there were ever something I would attribute to placebo .... it would be burn in. I remember when I disliked those totally weird sounding Ultrasone 2500's. I was told they need 300,400 or whatever hours of burn in and the presentaion will be transformed. Well a few weeks ago ... I heard a well burnt in pair (600 hour estimate) and the 2500's sounded just as awful as the first time I heard them .... and this was out of three different setups. So much for burn in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have also tried a brand new 701 vs a 701 with well over 500 hours burn in. I twisted the cords out of two completely identical setups and I could not tell them apart. The only hint they were different was the feel of the pads. But, if I ignored the feel of the pads and concentrated on the music I just could not tell them apart. Burn in, IMO, seems to be claim put forth to make people keep a product they dont really like in hopes their ears will finally come to accept the products aversive presentation.

 Furthermore, back to your original statement, I have a couple different digital cables I am using right now with three Zhalou dacs and there is an unmistakeable difference. One, cable I like and one I dont. As soon as I put the non-preferred cable in the dynamics compress and the sound seems closed in and canned. I dont know how such a difference could be any easier to distinguish. Why? No clue .... but I have repeated the same preferance at least six times. 

 The moral of the story? Skip the preconceived notions and theories and to take the time to listen._

 

The differences in performance before and after burn in, in drivers and speakers, is a well known mechanical effect, it have been proved, discussed and mainly all audiophiles and non so audiophiles agree on that, that is a mechanical effect that could even be measured, as the freq extension is different, not sure if you are discussing this for the sake of it, or not, but you will probably know better than me, that this is true. 

 Now, even if the physical evidence were not so obvious to me, and were not so widely accepted as it is, I have tried personally speakers, several kinds, also the CD3K new and old, HD650 new and old, Editions new and old, 2500 new and old, Portapros, new and old, among the ones I recall. In all cases, of course in ones more than others, there have been differences, that after sometime they have vanished, and I'm not the only one that believes that, many others have experienced that effect as well. It is far more noticeable than the differences in the analog cables, which I have a really hard time hearing, whiles those I do easily...

 Now to like or not a particular sound, presentation, etc...has very little to do with the burn in, the taming of the piercing highs you were complaining about is indeed, but not the liking or not of the sound at the end. 
 Maybe the 2500 were not your cup of tea, as the K701, HD650, nor any Grado are mine...Also as you say it is true that the "brain adjustment" to a given sound, has a role in the "burn in", we all are aware of that fact as well, but there is a true component, a physical easily discernible one, and that is not new for anybody neither...

 Now you say that I can't understand how a cable can make a difference, but it seems that you guys are trying to make a very complex science out of a cable performance. Not sure if you are aware that cables have been around for maybe a century now, and there are hundreds of studies about them, and thousands of companies that produce them and live out of them for decades. 
 Now they seem to make a difference bigger everyday, and by coincidence, after hundreds of shady companies that promotes them with no facts, and live of those profits, had emerged, but the fact is, that till now none of them, and nobody in this whole green round planet has been able to show a single evidence of these differences, or the so claimed better performance. All tests we know off, have been miserable failures, and you still insist in hearing differences? And not even in the analog domain, that to me, could be more understandable, now you want to hear them in the 0-1 domain as well??? That is IMO simply absurd...

 Sorry but I have better things to do that argue about this absurd topic, if you want to keep on going on this argument, please simply chose another of the hundreds of targets you can find here that will tell you exactly the same I do, as I will not go any further in the discussion of a digital cable difference... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I completely agree with you. I think burn-in is the most damaging aspect of audiophoolia, simply because it can take you past the return period so you can't return whatever in case you don't like it._

 

Nah!!! 200 hours is how much? 9 days, you still have 21 left to return them, most of the times headphone companies gives you up to one month, that is not a problem, also don't forget that there is also "cable burn in" and even "cable cookers/conditioner"!!!


----------



## OverlordXenu

Audioholics wrote an article on loudspeaker break-in, and my interpretation of their conclusion was basically that when you first start using them, they break in, and any changes after that are actually negative. Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction? &mdash; Audioholics Home Theater Reviews and News


----------



## fishski13

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I completely agree with you. I think burn-in is the most damaging aspect of audiophoolia, simply because it can take you past the return period so you can't return whatever in case you don't like it._

 

cable burn-in is way overrated, and i'm a believer in cables. 

 PACE


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audioholics wrote an article on loudspeaker break-in, and my interpretation of their conclusion was basically that when you first start using them, they break in, and any changes after that are actually negative. Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction? &mdash; Audioholics Home Theater Reviews and News_

 

I am of the opinion that speaker drivers will mechanically change somewhat with use. But, the hundreds and hundreds of hours people here claim is ridiculous. Furthermore, headphone drivers dont have nearly the excursion or handle the tremendous amount of power a speaker driver will ..... so the break in time should theoretically be less; not more. Burn in, however, has extended from speakers where there actually is a mechanical change to amps, cables, cd players .... and even specific parts like caps. How can this possibly be ascertained if there is no control for comparison?


----------



## Sovkiller

The membranes of a headphone driver are a way more sensitive, than a paper cone (or any other stiffer material) also keep in mind that they should be able to reproduce nuances, and very small variations on the sound, *with a lot less power*, also a whole spectrum of frequencies, so they need to be closer to the optimal "physical shape" before they are able to get you to that point. 
 Those changes are not instantaneus, and also the power used is a lot less, so the variations are dumb, "the excursion" as you say, is a lot less, so that is why maybe they take more time. 

 Honestly I do not see any contradiccion here...even though I agree with you, that sometimes the periodo of time claimed to be as necesary for the process to be accomplished is a way off the logic....


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The differences in performance before and after burn in, in drivers and speakers, is a well known mechanical effect, it have been proved, discussed and mainly all audiophiles and non so audiophiles agree on that, that is a mechanical effect that could even be measured, as the freq extension is different, not sure if you are discussing this for the sake of it, or not, but you will probably know better than me, that this is true. 

 Now, even if the physical evidence were not so obvious to me, and were not so widely accepted as it is, I have tried personally speakers, several kinds, also the CD3K new and old, HD650 new and old, Editions new and old, 2500 new and old, Portapros, new and old, among the ones I recall. In all cases, of course in ones more than others, there have been differences, that after sometime they have vanished, and I'm not the only one that believes that, many others have experienced that effect as well. It is far more noticeable than the differences in the analog cables, which I have a really hard time hearing, whiles those I do easily...

 Now to like or not a particular sound, presentation, etc...has very little to do with the burn in, the taming of the piercing highs you were complaining about is indeed, but not the liking or not of the sound at the end. 
 Maybe the 2500 were not your cup of tea, as the K701, HD650, nor any Grado are mine...Also as you say it is true that the "brain adjustment" to a given sound, has a role in the "burn in", we all are aware of that fact as well, but there is a true component, a physical easily discernible one, and that is not new for anybody neither...

 Now you say that I can't understand how a cable can make a difference, but it seems that you guys are trying to make a very complex science out of a cable performance. Not sure if you are aware that cables have been around for maybe a century now, and there are hundreds of studies about them, and thousands of companies that produce them and live out of them for decades. 
 Now they seem to make a difference bigger everyday, and by coincidence, after hundreds of shady companies that promotes them with no facts, and live of those profits, had emerged, but the fact is, that till now none of them, and nobody in this whole green round planet has been able to show a single evidence of these differences, or the so claimed better performance. All tests we know off, have been miserable failures, and you still insist in hearing differences? And not even in the analog domain, that to me, could be more understandable, now you want to hear them in the 0-1 domain as well??? That is IMO simply absurd...

 Sorry but I have better things to do that argue about this absurd topic, if you want to keep on going on this argument, please simply chose another of the hundreds of targets you can find here that will tell you exactly the same I do, as I will not go any further in the discussion of a digital cable difference... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Nah!!! 200 hours is how much? 9 days, you still have 21 left to return them, most of the times headphone companies gives you up to one month, that is not a problem, also don't forget that there is also "cable burn in" and even "cable cookers/conditioner"!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

I dont know what articles you read .... but this phenomena has not even been tested for headphones to my knowledge. A speaker driver is vastly different than a headphone driver in terms of mechanical compliance. The excursion of a speaker is many multiples of a headphone driver .... and the physical consruction of a speaker driver is MUCH heftier than any headphone driver. Most of the speakers drivers cited in those tests were large bass drivers. I have yet to see tweeter break in mentioned, which is more the equivalent comparison for a headphone driver.

 Secondly, I would agree there are a lot of cable companies charging obscene amounts. So what .... let people use their common sense. But, that doesnt change people hear differences in cables be that an improvement or a disappointment. What is complex about that? You hear a difference or you dont.

 Moving on .... there is no maybe .... the Ultrasone 2500 sucks, IMO, along with all the other Ultrasones I have tried. But, that wasnt the issue. The issue was I didnt like the 2500 from the beginning and I was told the reason I didnt like them was because the headphone didnt have hundred the hundreds of hours of burn in necessary. That once the 2500 had the prerequisite number of burn in hours the headphone would be magically transformed. That was not true and we do people a disservice convincing them to accept something they really dont care for.

 200 hours .... that is nothing. Have you seen the 600, 800 and even 1200 hour claims lately. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Burn in claims have reached ridiculous proportions yet no one questions them. How does anyone remember the sound 1200 hours ago. How do some people even know how many hours they have unless they record them .... which doesnt seem to be the case.

 Finally, if you dont want to discuss why do you bother to comment in the first place? Particularly when you use examples that have nothing to do with the actual subject; example ... speaker drivers are not headphone drivers. Comparing the mechanical break in of a high excursion 15" woofer handing hundreds of watts with a 30-40 mm headphone driver handing a few hundred milliamps has what relevance?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont know what articles you read .... but this phenomena has not even been tested for headphones to my knowledge. A speaker driver is vastly different than a headphone driver in terms of mechanical compliance. The excursion of a speaker is many multiples of a headphone driver .... and the physical consruction of a speaker driver is MUCH heftier than any headphone driver. Most of the speakers drivers cited in those tests were large bass drivers. I have yet to see tweeter break in mentioned, which is more the equivalent comparison for a headphone driver.

 Secondly, I would agree there are a lot of cable companies charging obscene amounts. So what .... let people use their common sense. But, that doesnt change people hear differences in cables be that an improvement or a disappointment. What is complex about that? You hear a difference or you dont.

 Moving on .... there is no maybe .... the Ultrasone 2500 sucks, IMO, along with all the other Ultrasones I have tried. But, that wasnt the issue. The issue was I didnt like the 2500 from the beginning and I was told the reason I didnt like them was because the headphone didnt have hundred the hundreds of hours of burn in necessary. That once the 2500 had the prerequisite number of burn in hours the headphone would be magically transformed. That was not true and we do people a disservice convincing them to accept something they really dont care for.

 200 hours .... that is nothing. Have you seen the 600, 800 and even 1200 hour claims lately. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Burn in claims have reached ridiculous proportions yet no one questions them. How does anyone remember the sound 1200 hours ago. How do some people even know how many hours they have unless they record them .... which doesnt seem to be the case.

 Finally, if you dont want to discuss why do you bother to comment in the first place? Particularly when you use examples that have nothing to do with the actual subject; example ... speaker drivers are not headphone drivers. Comparing the mechanical break in of a high excursion 15" woofer handing hundreds of watts with a 30-40 mm headphone driver handing a few hundred milliamps has what relevance?_

 






 Why I cannot comment, without discussing, my opinion is as avalid as any other, if others can do it, why not me???

 BTW I did not compare the cables peformance with the burn in, you did...and I never brought that burn in issue here, you were the one who brought it...I never used any example out of topic, you may be reading other poster, not me... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 The burn in for the 2500 is indeed a pre-requisite, but nobody told you that will be a magic solution, at least not me. It is importnat as to any other heapdhone to judge its sound quality, as it is the "brain burn in" to the new presentation, as stated many times. But that second parameter is IMO more important, as the sound will slightly change with the time in quality, but the presentation will be the same, and you need to get used to it before. But if you do not like the sound why bother, *that is the first step to like them*, if you do not, so be it, that is your prerrogative and your preference, I have mine as well that excludes many good heapdhones, and do not say they suck, it is better to say IMO, that you do not like them, and period, but as you know, many professionals, with far better ears than yours and mine use them everyday to work, and I do not think that all of them are wrong...

 IIRC you were complaining about the piercing highs at that time, and as I have heard the same comments about the 2500, and later on after the burn in, this problem was tamed, I told you to wait till the burn in was completed, but it is not a miracle, as you said...

 If you have only one pair of heapdhone, I agree with you that it is not very accurate to speak of before an after, same as in any other burn in issue, that is why, while I speak about that particular topic, I always mention my expereince with *two pairs*, one stock from the box, and another used and old...that is the only real valid way, and trying several times. 
 Right now I still have one PP in the box and two of them in use, if you try them you will see the difference...Again those are not day and nigh disfferences, and chances are that if you do not like the sound before, you will not like it after neither..

 The complexity on the science behind cables, is not of course, in the way you stated: to hear or not the differences, of course that is very simpe indeed, but is in the way people try to explain the existance of those diferences while asked, I have even read some guys stating the possible existance of parameters not discovered to the date by science, and just to justify these...Ok that could be possible, but honestly to me, it will be really complex if that is true...


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TempleOfEar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_that was ridiculous. i just read thru the last 4 pages of my thread and there was nothing but rant and arguing. this thread outlived its usefulness after someone mentioned silver resolution. im gonna go order them right now._

 

I will still get your BJC if the price is right for me, I do not need them but I like them....


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 Why I cannot comment, without discussing, my opinion is as avalid as any other, if others can do it, why not me???

 BTW I did not compare the cables peformance with the burn in, you did...and I never brought that burn in issue here, you were the one who brought it...I never used any example out of topic, you may be reading other poster, not me... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 The burn in for the 2500 is indeed a pre-requisite, but nobody told you that will be a magic solution, at least not me. It is importnat as to any other heapdhone to judge its sound quality, as it is the "brain burn in" to the new presentation, as stated many times. But that second parameter is IMO more important, as the sound will slightly change with the time in quality, but the presentation will be the same, and you need to get used to it before. But if you do not like the sound why bother, *that is the first step to like them*, if you do not, so be it, that is your prerrogative and your preference, I have mine as well that excludes many good heapdhones, and do not say they suck, it is better to say IMO, that you do not like them, and period, but as you know, many professionals, with far better ears than yours and mine use them everyday to work, and I do not think that all of them are wrong...

 IIRC you were complaining about the piercing highs at that time, and as I have heard the same comments about the 2500, and later on after the burn in, this problem was tamed, I told you to wait till the burn in was completed, but it is not a miracle, as you said...

 If you have only one pair of heapdhone, I agree with you that it is not very accurate to speak of before an after, same as in any other burn in issue, that is why, while I speak about that particular topic, I always mention my expereince with *two pairs*, one stock from the box, and another used and old...that is the only real valid way, and trying several times. 
 Right now I still have one PP in the box and two of them in use, if you try them you will see the difference...Again those are not day and nigh disfferences, and chances are that if you do not like the sound before, you will not like it after neither..

 The complexity on the science behind cables, is not of course, in the way you stated: to hear or not the differences, of course that is very simpe indeed, but is in the way people try to explain the existance of those diferences while asked, I have even read some guys stating the possible existance of parameters not discovered to the date by science, and just to justify these...Ok that could be possible, but honestly to me, it will be really complex if that is true..._

 


 You ONLY read half the comment. I never said anything close to .... you could not comment. I asked why bother.

 I read you saying digital cables make no difference when I hear with my own ears they do. But, you tout burn in and Based on my experiences, I think burn in is one of the most bogus and unprovable theories on this board .... hence my comparison.

 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 sovkiller ....
 IIRC you were complaining about the piercing highs at that time, and as I have heard the same comments about the 2500, and later on after the burn in, this problem was tamed, I told you to wait till the burn in was completed, but it is not a miracle, as you said...

 sacd lover ....
 and the highs remain peircing with burnt in 2500 based of the burnt in pair I just heard. Burn in = voodoo to deflect criticism of the real problem.

 ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 I wasnt trying to explain the performance at all. I said I had no clue why. But, given there seems to be real differences why is it hard to believe we cant currently measure or account for all differences. 

 I said, for the record .... 
 Why? No clue .... but I have repeated the same preferance atleast six times.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sovkiller ....
 IIRC you were complaining about the piercing highs at that time, and as I have heard the same comments about the 2500, and later on after the burn in, this problem was tamed, I told you to wait till the burn in was completed, but it is not a miracle, as you said...

 sacd lover ....
 and the highs remain peircing with burnt in 2500 based of the burnt in pair I just heard. Burn in = voodoo to deflect criticism of the real problem.
_

 

Well not really, IMO they are not piercing before and not piercing after, and if you asked me comming from the CD3k they quite the opposite, but as many people seems to beleive otherwise, and I'm in the minory, and as many people beleive they are gone after the burn in, I suggest you to try that approach, but to be honest with you, IMO the highs are not a problem at all in any Ultrasone...

 About the digital cable, have you even try to measure the other digital cable or send it to be inspected by the manufacturer, to see if it is not defective, that could be the reason as well, and I'm being serious, a defective soldering point, and defective material inside the cable, etc...trust me that it is very unlikely that using any common length of digital cable, you hear any difference...all they carry is digital signal, no audio, this digital signal is later on converted to audio, as you know, and digital signals are very simple and easy to carry, and very unlikely to be degraded that is why I'm so hesitant to believe it. That is why they were created in the first instance, to eliminate the problems we have in analog signals, convenience was the reason of the existence of those...


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well not really, IMO they are not piercing before and not piercing after, and if you asked me comming from the CD3k they quite the opposite, but as many people seems to beleive otherwise, and I'm in the minory, and as many people beleive they are gone after the burn in, I suggest you to try that approach, but to be honest with you, IMO the highs are not a problem at all in any Ultrasone...

 About hte digital cable, have you even try to measure the other digital cable or send it ot be inspected by the anufacturer, to see if it is not defective, that could be the reason as well, and I'm being serious, a defective soldering point, and defective material inside the cable, etc...trust me that it is very unlikely that using any common length of digital cable, you hear any difference...all they carry is digital signal, no audio, this digital signal is later on converted to audio, as you know, and digital signals are very simple and easy to carry, and very unlikely to be degraded that is why I'm so hesitant to beleive it. That is why they were created in the first instance, to eliminate the problems we have in analog signals, convenience was the reason of the existance of those..._

 

The Ultrasones I have auditioned or owned have a piecing treble compared to any other headphones I use .... end of story. I am tired of messing with them, I dont own them and I would never buy another pair without a lengthy trial. I would like to hear an E9. But, comments outside the Ultrasone love fest thread, and on other websites, lead me to believe I will probably not like them either. 

 Well the cables I dont like are two new Blue Jeans coax; one standard and one stranded. They both pass the signal without any apparent data loss or dropouts so how are they defective? I have passed signal through them for many hours and I dont hear any change. The BJ's just dont sound as good as my other digital cable.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well the cables I dont like are two new Blue Jeans coax; one standard and one stranded. They both pass the signal without any apparent data loss or dropouts so how are they defective? I have passed signal through them for many hours and I dont hear any change. The BJ's just dont sound as good as my other digital cable._

 

I'm not saying they are, I just want to rule out that posibility, but if you have two, and both have the same effect (to your ears) that rules out a possible defect...unless both are, but knowing the outstanding manufacture of BJC, it is really unlikely... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Well in that case all I can say is "kudos to you, and your outstanding hearing!!! If by any chance and by coincidence you find the evidence of why this is happening, don't forget to keep us updated...


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will still get your BJC if the price is right for me, I do not need them but I like them....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If you don't get them, I want them.


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well the cables I dont like are two new Blue Jeans coax; one standard and one stranded. They both pass the signal without any apparent data loss or dropouts so how are they defective? I have passed signal through them for many hours and I dont hear any change. The BJ's just dont sound as good as my other digital cable._

 

Do you attribute the poorer audio performance of the BJC to some difference in their jitter characteristics?


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do you attribute the poorer audio performance of the BJC to some difference in their jitter characteristics?_

 

I dont know. Both cables use carnare plugs and both are crimped construction. The cables are more similar than different.


----------



## sejarzo

What I really meant was that if both the BJC and preferred cable are transferring the correct bits, isn't the only thing left a difference in how the cables are impacting jitter?


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What I really meant was that if both the BJC and preferred cable are transferring the correct bits, isn't the only thing left a difference in how the cables are impacting jitter?_

 


 I learned a long time ago, beyond jitter, the SPDIF connection itself is quite flawed. There is timing jitter and there is an actual modulation of the digital signal from cramming five seperate data lines, like with I2S, into one SPDIF line. But, with the newer and supposedly jitter immune dacs .... along with a transport with an ultra accurate aftermarket clock ..... I didnt think the coax link would be as big a deal anymore. So, I went cheap with the BJ's. I already had a relatively inexpensive Enigma Audio digital IC that sounded very good so I expected the same from the even less expensive BJ's; unfortunately that was not how things worked out. Perhaps these newer input receivers still cant fully seperate and decipher the incoming data stream. The bits may be all there but not with the proper spacing?

 Timing variations seem very possible on a common sense level. But, as to how these timing variations are actually caused in the cable your guess is as good as mine. Maybe the cable cant maintain the proper impedence at all times? Maybe some of the data gets jumbled together (reflections) throwing off the timing? Have you ever heard an I2S connection vs a coax connection? .... the difference is very apparent.


----------



## morphsci

Well to get back on topic, if you want a change from the BJC's, which are actually very good cables, I would recommend the signal cable silver resolutions also. I can't comment on the connectors as I actually use them balanced. If you do not want to go silver I would personally stick with the BJC's or Outlaw cables, which are also very good in construction and price.

 As far as digital cables, I am currently comparing some BJC (solid) cables with a Nordost silver streak. I cannot detect any noticeable difference when using either from an SB3 to the digital input on my Cambridge 840C. I do notice a slight difference when going from the Cambridge to my TACT amp, but I actually prefer the BJC. Just personal preference at this point.


----------



## jrosenth

Question: "Hey what's a good choice beyond BJC?"

 Answer: "Why do you want anything above BJC, you won't be able to hear the difference anyway."

 Exchange: Back and forth arguing about claim above, cloakedly and openly mentioning type of testing forbidden in this forum (see the sticky, which is in place in order to provide a place for people to give and share information about what they hear and think).

 ---

 I wonder what this forum would be like, honestly, if this sort of degeneration weren't so predictable.

 I really wonder how this sort of thing could be avoided.

 Maybe that's just not possible - if so that's too bad.


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Exchange: Back and forth arguing about claim above, cloakedly and openly mentioning type of testing forbidden in this forum (see the sticky, which is in place in order to provide a place for people to give and share information about what they hear and think)._

 

Correction: "which is in place in order to provide a place for people to give and share information without thinking, informed only by our illusion-prone senses"







 --Chris


----------



## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Correction: "which is in place in order to provide a place for people to give and share information without thinking, informed only by our illusion-prone senses"






 --Chris_

 

I noticed you didn't challenge part DBT being forbidden yet it being regular par for the course in these threads, including this one, to ignore that and bring it up.

 I guess you've supplied the rationale for why folks do it.

 Apparently it goes like this: 

 "I know the admin and mods have expressively forbidding mentioning DBT. They must be doing that in order to provide a safe place for people to give and share information about what they hear and think. But since I know that cables are indistinguishable from each other, that would really make it 'a place for people to give and share information without thinking, informed only by our illusion-prone senses'. Maybe the mods are sadly mistaken. Maybe they just don't know as much as me. In any case it's up to me to just go ahead and take it into my own hands. In fact, when someone points out the fact that folks being forbidden from bringing up DBT, I think my best course of action is to take a shot."

 As enjoyable as it would be to be baited into continuing this sort of exchange, I'll refrain from here on out. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yeah, I know this sounds a bit snarky but I'm so very tired of seeing a thread title that I'm interested in like this one and clicking on it only so see the posts are not about the thread title but that it's degenerated into the ususal you know what with the usual crew doing the scooping. And I have to admit that may be tough to police but when it crosses the DBT line it's pretty clear - and when that's pointed out and someone takes a shot at it, then that's just too much.


----------



## Sovkiller

All I can say to the OP, is that I still want your BJCs, if you find any better, and if the price is right....


----------



## Tgun5

BLAH BLAH BLAH 

 and if the OP is still interested, I have tried many very highly regarded (and some very expensive) cables and was suprised at the sound quality of the Verastarr silver reference cables. They have nice balance, superb detail and are very opened sounding. The price is a fraction of what they compete against IMO.


----------



## maarek99

QED Qunex 2. Absolutely.


----------



## Tgun5

BTW, someone here is selling a Grover cable for $85. This is a well regarded cable over at Audio Asylum.


----------



## uraflit

www.monoprice.com

 rofl


----------



## jrosenth

I think someone here is selling some audio geek cables and someone else some DIY cardas


----------



## darkninja67

I am going to try out the Calabrine ICs soon. Already have the speaker cables. They seem nice as far as aesthetics go.
Calabrine &mdash; Audio Interconnect Cables


----------



## Sovkiller

To the original poster, TempleOfEar, have you make up yuor mind yet? I'm still interested in the BJC, I was serious OK?...


----------



## MatsudaMan

Kimber PBJ.


----------



## Drag0n

I have a Tara Labs cable here, and if you cant hear a difference between that and my Audioquest cable,then you can save your money on expensive audio equipment.
 Im not saying at all which is better or worse, but the difference is so obvious.
 Ive been thinking about getting the Signal Cable also.
 I havent heard it myself, but ive heard alot about it, and it seems like a good buy.
 I did purchase the AC digital power cord that they make,and its going on a Woo2 when i get it.
 I believe cables make a difference in sound, but i dont believe you need to spend alot to get good quality cables,and some inexpensive cables can beat out high end esoteric cables in the right systems. I think its all system matching, so no reason to spend $3000 on a 3 foot rca cable. Good cables can be found under $100, or maybe even $50. Make your own for cheap.


----------



## kpeezy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great choice!
 I would go with silver bullets (hence my $140 price quote), to have a cable with silver all the way in the signal path. But you and your wallet have to decide._

 

Old post, I know. 

 I've been wondering about this though. Does it even matter if you're plugging into copper jacks and going through internal wiring? 

 If silver cable is, indeed, better, what does it matter if it goes back into copper wiring before you even hear it?


----------



## pataburd

MAC silver-braided.


----------



## 1117

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kpeezy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Old post, I know. 

 I've been wondering about this though. Does it even matter if you're plugging into copper jacks and going through internal wiring? 

 If silver cable is, indeed, better, what does it matter if it goes back into copper wiring before you even hear it?_

 

I'd like to hear opinions to this as well.


----------



## MatsudaMan

There are those unfortunate audio systems that do not respond to quality interconnects. Usually, the unfortunate people who own such systems are the very ones who swear that cables don't matter. If you have crappy electronics, a great cable will actually just make it sound even crappier. It's kind of funny how it just reinforces their argument - 'cause it's kind of true for those unfortunate souls.


----------



## ethebull

Call me a heretic or a fool, but I’ve been a long time fan of Monster Cable’s M1000i at $200/ 1M pr. A really well balanced cable in every respect.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MatsudaMan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are those unfortunate audio systems that do not respond to quality interconnects. Usually, the unfortunate people who own such systems are the very ones who swear that cables don't matter. If you have crappy electronics, a great cable will actually just make it sound even crappier. It's kind of funny how it just reinforces their argument - 'cause it's kind of true for those unfortunate souls._

 

And there are also those unfortunate audiophile ears that beleive they can hear a difference in every change they made in their system, even while there are none, (or even while they believe the cables have been changed, in a DBT, and indeed they have been listening the same cables all the time) and even while can never prove it...

 A very poor argument, all the DBT that we have heard off, have been done with top notch gear, and all that I know off, even with the gear they are familiar with, and all of them have ended with the same results, miserable failures...


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 A very poor argument, all the DBT that we have heard off, have been done with top notch gear, and all that I know off..._

 

What gear is that?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What gear is that?_

 

Here is one of them. This is not the most remarkable one, I was trying to find the link, and honestly I was not able to find it. But this one has the list of the gear, and offer some statistiscal data as well of the results. The result was around 49%, what means in other words that the results were totally random...This one was about power cords, the one I was looking for, and was not able to find was about speaker cables, and it was funny as the guys even wrote the results, and they were all the time listening to a zip cord, the cables were indeed never changed...

 In other tests done by one friend, a couple of them IIRC, the tests had never gotten to the second step (in the first state they tried to determine if the people could indentify always while listening the same setup, and same cables) but on that same first stage, the people began to listen differences while listening all the time the same cables, so why bother to continue...On this ones unfortunatelly I'm not authorized to post the gear used, nor more details unless my friend authorized me (which I doubt)...but all I can add is that the gear used was at the level of any of the bests you cna find here in head-fi...


----------



## jrosenth

*"Default Do not discuss DBT in this or other forums
 Since we've seemingly been inundated lately with these discussions, I find it necessary to spell it out clearly and explicitly:

 We do not engage in the discussion of double-blind testing (DBT) of cables on this site.

 We do this not because DBT is or is not an legitimate means for decision-making. Rather, in our experience we find that these discussions repeatedly break down rather quickly into nasty circular arguments by competing camps of true believers. We've come to the conclusion that there's no particularly worthwhile end to be served by this line of discussion, and as such we're asking that the membership not engage in it.

 Thanks..."*

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IPodPJ, don't be so sure you will hear the differences, I have seen guys, audiophiles and not, fail miserably in front of me, while trying to indentify gear, and cables, OK? Even claim to hear difference while they should not hear any, trust me that placebo is stronger of what you believe, not saying that they can not make an small difference, just that if they are, are so subtle, that is not so easy to indentify them...

 I would like to see a couple of Golden Ears that are posting all the time about those claimed differences in one of those "forbiden word" tests to see how they will handle it...

Here you have a few articles for your entertainment...

 Read especially this one, I have seen this happen several times in my life, the latest was the million dollar challenge, in while the moment comes, the cable manufacturer back up...afraid of the truth?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The conclusion of that test showed for the majority of the participants, a completely random result, and if it is true they were asked for the materials of the cable, but regardless of what they believe the sound should be, the silver one definitelly should sound better than the RS, according to the audiophile standards, that consider that the RS as one of the worst cables on earth as well.

 Silver is a better conductor, and it was manufactured decently by Edwood, and as you said, it may sound wrong in a given setup due to the synergy, but in all of them? They believed, and they conclude, in the majority of the cases, that the silver one was the RS, in other words, the silver cable in all the setups but one, sounded worst than the other two...Does that ring any bell to you???_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL...You are very smart, now you are changing the terms, nope, I do not need the material, all I want is you to indentify your cables in your system.. (we never discussed to select which is better or worst after a week...who cares about that?)

 You said that you can identify your cables in your system, right? 

"...I can tell the difference in MY system because I've spent countless hours with it. I've switched my cables back and forth so many times that *I know exactly what MY cables sound like in MY system*..."

 So all I want from you is to do *what you are claiming*, nothing else, in a trully double blind test using *your system, you should be able to indentify your cables*, as you stated... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I will be at the FL meeting, for a whole week in the hotel, you are welcome anyday if you go there...

 Again is a real shame I could not meet you, to go for the test...Becasue trust me, that you, as anybody else, will fail miserably...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ DBT that we have heard off, have been done with top notch gear, and all that I know off, even with the gear they are familiar with, and all of them have ended with the same results, miserable failures..._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is one of them. This is not the most remarkable one, I was trying to find the link, and honestly I was not able to find it. But this one has the list of the gear, and offer some statistiscal data as well of the results. The result was around 49%, what means in other words that the results were totally random...This one was about power cords, the one I was looking for, and was not able to find was about speaker cables, and it was funny as the guys even wrote the results, and they were all the time listening to a zip cord, the cables were indeed never changed...

 In other tests done by one friend, a couple of them IIRC, the tests had never gotten to the second step (in the first state they tried to determine if the people could indentify always while listening the same setup, and same cables) but on that same first stage, the people began to listen differences while listening all the time the same cables, so why bother to continue...On this ones unfortunatelly I'm not authorized to post the gear used, nor more details unless my friend authorized me (which I doubt)...but all I can add is that the gear used was at the level of any of the bests you cna find here in head-fi..._

 


 Um... I know that you're a member of the trade so maybe the sticky quoted at the top of this post (and repeatedly referenced throughout this thread) doesn't apply?


----------



## MatsudaMan

I know that an Antonio Stradivari violin sounds very different than and a Pietro Guarneri violin played by the same person in the same environment. I'm sure that someone who can't hear the difference between cables also can't hear the difference between those violins. I'm also sure that it must not feel good to be lacking in such discernment and fine tuned ears. To all who can't hear a difference, I'm sorry that there is no scientific reason for you unfortunate situation.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MatsudaMan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know that an Antonio Stradivari violin sounds very different than and a Pietro Guarneri violin played by the same person in the same environment. I'm sure that someone who can't hear the difference between cables also can't hear the difference between those violins. I'm also sure that it must not feel good to be lacking in such discernment and fine tuned ears. To all who can't hear a difference, I'm sorry that there is no scientific reason for you unfortunate situation._

 

You are wrong on that, I know a few musicians (my borther is guitarrist) and one violinist as well, that could indentify the instruments in a heartbeat, and do not believe in cables differences, simply the differences between intruments are easily discernible, and the one between cables are not (if any) Indeed what happen is the opposite, mainly all professionals of the recording industry and audio, and musicians, do not belive in cables differences, otherwise instead of Mogami, Canare and Belden, all the studios, mikes, and intrument cables, were done by Cardas, Nordost and the like...for an studio, or for a loaded musician, that is a one time investment and cheap in comparison to others...

 Now let's assume that the limitation is actually in the ears, as you are trying to point out (evne while we could also say that the differences you hear are in your brain, as what is good for goose is for the gander) what can you do about it? Not much, that is the only part of the system you can not upgrade, sorry...

 I do not see how you need to necesarily feel bad about that, while the enjoyment of the music, is a very personal experience, and most of the times has nothing to do with the quality of the recording or the sound, but the quality of the performance itself.


----------



## MatsudaMan

The only reason studio recordings don't use companies like Nordost is because they don't want to change the sound - they just want it neutral. That makes sense. Audiophiles like euphonic not neutral.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

I don't care what anyone says, I've witnessed burn-in with my amps and headphones. I have not noticed a change in cables with burn-in. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that my ears are not good enough.

 Disregarding burn-in, I can also tell a difference between headphone cables. I can listen to several headphone cables on my own equipment, and tell what is different between them most of the time, up to the limits of my equipment or ears. Sometimes this takes intense concentration and over-focusing, and other times the differences are fairly evident to the whole world. 

 However, I cannot always tell the difference between interconnects. I just have a harder time hearing a difference in my interconnects than with headphone cables. Cheap interconnects ($10) sound good, expensive ones ($60) sometimes sound the same as the cheap ones, and sometimes I get an interconnect that just stands out as superior (ALO Jumbo Cryo Silver X stands out to me). It's not the cost that makes the difference, in my case one of mine didn't cost anything, and I had no expectations till I listened and it was like, "What is this I hear? Wow!"

 Lastly, I can't seem to tell a difference between speaker cables or power cables. Lamp cord and a generic computer power cord have always been good enough for me.

 I can understand how there can be differences when a cap has formed, or when a driver is mechanically broken in. And, my ears support that. My ears and brain are not burning-in, it IS definitely the amp or headphones that have changed with use.

 Believing in burn-in doesn't require the same kind of Faith as believing in Jesus, because I can witness burn-in for myself - but with my Faith, I have to trust in the witnesses that came before me.


----------



## Gaara

OP if you are still reading this the best bang for your buck are the cables that come in the box. By definition nothing will beat them in the price/performance ratio as they are free. In this same line of thought the best aftermarket ones would probably be something like monoprice. You can get a pair of 3ft analog audio cables with gold plated connectors and 22 gauge wire for $2.37. I am sure your BJC will be better but 10x better, I doubt it.

 Personally I like cables that utilize Belden 89259. BJC will make some for you, Signal Cable makes them and badges them as Analog 2s, my personal favorite vendor Heartlandcables also sells them. A 1m pair from heartland with standard canare rcas should run you $35, $55 for bullet plugs.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MatsudaMan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only reason studio recordings don't use companies like Nordost is because they don't want to change the sound - they just want it neutral. That makes sense. Audiophiles like euphonic not neutral._

 

And who says that a good cable necesarily needs to alter the sound, or make it euphonic, there is a saying in audio that clams that "the best cable is no cable". A good cable must be neutral and completelly transparent, otherwise to me is a crappy device, altering the sound, and honestly I want it as far as possible from my sound system... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Audiophiles like natural sound...that is a misconception....I like euphonic sopund myself, so I do not consider myself an audiophile, but mainly due to the fact that I do not know how the reacording is supposed to sound, so i like it the way I feel is more pleasant for my ears. I didn't make it, neither any of you, so you are IMO chasing a ghost. There is no way to determine how a recording is supposed to sound like (and I say the recording, not the piano, nor the guitar, nor the sax, the recording!!! Which is reproduction of the event, created by a human being wiht personla preferences as well, and full of anomalies introduced all along the process, on purpose or not)


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MatsudaMan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only reason studio recordings don't use companies like Nordost is because they don't want to change the sound - they just want it neutral. That makes sense. Audiophiles like euphonic not neutral._

 

Studios create euphonic sound by CONTROLLING the sound through EQ and mixing. Audiophiles could learn a thing or two about being in control of the way their systems sound too. Randomly swapping in colored wires in the hopes that it will sound better is a total waste of time and money.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## slowth

would doing things like adding acoustic foam and adding panels to the area make a bigger difference instead? I'd think it would wouldn't it?


----------



## btbluesky

Let me say I'm a programmer by trade, and I always use a pragmatic approach toward my audio, where price/performance reign high on my list of purchase. 

 Until 3 days ago I was on the placebo camp, where I believe a good construction w/ good material should be enough for a home setup sys (obviously a big-rig w/ home theater/concert hall would be diff) 

 My friend lend me a AQ columbia RCA (review posted here), and I AB it w/ my Zu cable $30 oxyfuel (which is already far better than any radioshack/monster). And it is true the difference is night and day. Even the volume level changed. And the so call euphoric effect have is indeed higher. 

 I intent to do blind test w/ my wife's help this weekend, and then decide whether or not this added quality justify the price I will spend. But to say any cable is no diff is to me saying -100 degree temp is equal to -274 because you walk in there and will be dead in 5 mins in both cases. 

 There are no test methods available today does not mean there will not be any in the future. Just like totally dismissing String Theory because there are no test available (they are trying).


----------



## Audio-Omega

Has anyone ever tried Neotech interconnects ?


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anything other than this is a waste of money.




_

 

You just bought a Ray Samuels B-52 right? Are you going to use Radio Shack (or equivalent) interconnects?


----------



## meat01

Quote:


 You just bought a Ray Samuels B-52 right? Are you going to use Radio Shack (or equivalent) interconnects? 
 

It is a joke, but those cables would work with a Ray Samuels or any other headphone amp. Just because you spend $5000 on an amp does not mean you have to spend $500 or even a $100 on cables. Please tell me what the limiting factor is on the cables that Vcheda posted that would not make them sound as good as others. The build quality leaves a bit to be desired, but they would probably do the trick for years.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is a joke, but those cables would work with a Ray Samuels or any other headphone amp. Just because you spend $5000 on an amp does not mean you have to spend $500 or even a $100 on cables. Please tell me what the limiting factor is on the cables that Vcheda posted that would not make them sound as good as others. The build quality leaves a bit to be desired, but they would probably do the trick for years._

 

The question is directed at Vcohela and is best answered by him because it is in response to his post. If you see nothing wrong with 2 dollar cables on a 5000 dollar amp than that is fine, I dont care.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *QQQ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe you should explain what exactly is wrong, so this man can alter his point of view._

 

Here is my experience. I used a 15 dollar interconnect that is nicer than the Radio Shack unit Vecohela posted. It was the only interconnect in my headphone setup. I then purchased a 150 dollar hand made cable from Soloz Audio and replaced the 15 dollar unit. The difference was nite and day. Much less distortion, it was more dynamic, it was more detailed, and it eliminated fatigue and I was able to listen for hours and still be fresh and ready for more listening. It was an improvement in all areas except for my wallet. If you have good equipment, cables can make a difference. On a side bar I will say that cable purchases should be within reason, 3000 cable on a 1000 amp would seem to be a bit skewed as alot of the 3000 could have been spend on the amp instead, but I think you see what im trying to say. My amp was 1200 dollars and my interconnect is 150 dollars and worth every penny. I realize some people will never beleive in cables and that is ok.


----------



## QQQ

Quote:


 The difference was nite and day. Much less distortion, it was more dynamic, it was more detailed, and it eliminated fatigue and I was able to listen for hours and still be fresh and ready for more listening. It was an improvement in all areas except for my wallet. 
 

That experience clearly suggest your old cable was faulty.


----------



## meat01

Quote:


 The difference was nite and day. Much less distortion, it was more dynamic, it was more detailed, and it eliminated fatigue and I was able to listen for hours and still be fresh and ready for more listening. 
 

Another night and day response, yet this subject is debated so much that we can't even talk about DBT here. How would you get distortion from a cable unless the cable was broken? Seriously? 2 feet of wire cause distortion?


----------



## melomaniac

hmm... there just was a piece in stereophile (yes, the mag that touts unaffordable things) about an interconnect that the reviewer felt (or should I say argued? heard? believed? experienced?) to be an improvement. I won't name it here (no need for another tiresome round of arguing) but I found that interesting as it came from a self-confessed cable skeptic. - bottom line though: that cable runs 240, and your BJC will still be the best way to go for you since you stated, OP, that you "want something better while not having to pay premium".


----------



## pataburd

I've had excellent success with the EVS IC-100 ($95/meter pair), made with PC-OCC stranded copper and "naked" Eichman bullets. 

 Ric Schultz at Electronic Visionary Systems now offers the RSW-1, which I would like to try. (Go to EVS Homepage for more information).

 The IC-100 was the best interconnect I'd tried to date, and the RSW-1 (at $105/meter pair), made with specially configured and insulated silver plated copper, is supposed to be even better.


----------



## olblueyez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *QQQ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That experience clearly suggest your old cable was faulty._

 

You are wrong, perpetuating an argument, and have no basis whatsoever for your statement. Making statements like that only demonstrates your inability to contribute to this thread.

 Here is the old cable http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1114639085343

 Here is the new cable http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=...localeid=en_US

 I hear the difference, anyone want to take QQQ's word for gospel then go ahead. Difference between us is I have listened to the difference between the two cables and he has not.


----------



## melomaniac

[blah blah... when I post too late at night, sometimes the next day I find I was off topic... out comes the self-censorship]


----------



## meat01

umm, we weren't taliking about digital cables and 1's and 0's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. The original question was the best bang for the buck cable better than Blue jeans.


----------



## olblueyez

Distortion, as in certain parts of the music are not discernible, especially in the upper mids and highs. Old cable lacks a lot of detail that is present with the better cable. Like listening to Sinatra live and you can hear silverware tapping plates in the background, stuff like that. Also the bass is tight and clean enstead of boomy and lacking impact.


----------



## olblueyez

For the original poster I recommend you take a look at this website and contact Jacob if you have any questions. Im very happy with mine.

Soloz Audio > Home


----------



## vo_obgyn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TempleOfEar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi guys im wanting to replace my old bluejean canare interconnects for something better. however it is my understanding that bluejeans offer the best bang for the buck. but i still want something better while not having to pay premium. can you guys help me out with some recommandation? thanks. oh also ill be selling the bluejean interconnects once i upgrade. theyre 3 feet length._

 

I have tried many cables over the years and my old stand-by "go-to" best "bang for the buck" cable has been the Kimber Kable PBJ. Right now, they are being used between my NAD C542 CD Player and the RSA HR-2 headphone amp in my bedside rig and it is a nice set up.


----------



## olblueyez

Those kimbers look nice. PBJ, one of my favorites.


----------



## pataburd

Go to: Cables and Accessories and check out Ric Schultz's RSW-1: $105 for a 1 meter pair. I am currently using his (now discontinued and since improved-upon) IC100, made with PCOCC copper, and they sound superb. The RSW-1 are reportedly a whole 'nother level better. : )


----------



## btbluesky

UM....interesting. Gotta try it out...

_[size=xx-small]Copper wire is made from casting molten copper into long rods or bars that eventually are drawn through a tiny orifice that creates a copper wire. Copper crystals, generated during rapid cooling in the traditional casting process, act as an impediment to the natural flow of the signal. This is because the random orientation of these copper crystals forms an irregular mosaic pattern that impedes the flow of electrons. What was needed was a single crystal copper casting process.

 In 1986 the Ohno Continuous Casting (OCC) process was introduced to the world. Ultra Pure single crystal Copper was developed by professor Ohno of the Chiba Institute of Technology in Japan. OCC is a single, long grain copper structure built by using a heated mold, that solves the rapid cooling process problems. The results are small rods of OCC pure copper, from which the wire can be drawn and we get single copper grains of over 700 feet in length! 

 PCOCC sounds superior to OFC copper in the same construction cable. It's a LOT more expensive but it's worth the extra expense as we believe we have generated a far superior interconnect using PCOCC materials in the conductors. [/size]_

 [size=xx-small]http://www.monarchyaudio.com/pcocc.html[/size]


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You are wrong, perpetuating an argument, and have no basis whatsoever for your statement. Making statements like that only demonstrates your inability to contribute to this thread.

 Here is the old cable Dynex® - 7' Y Audio Cable - DX-MP3RCA7

 Here is the new cable Kodakgallery.com*Join now and receive beautiful photographic prints from your camera

 I hear the difference, anyone want to take QQQ's word for gospel then go ahead. Difference between us is I have listened to the difference between the two cables and he has not._

 

Hey! Thanks for selling me that Soloz cable in the photos! I agree, it is a good cable and it was an improvement over the $60 silver plated copper mini-RCA I was using before. 

 Over the past 6 months I have learned to hear the difference between interconnects. I now have an ALO SXC mini-RCA that sounds even better: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/mi...ad-spc-366693/

 I also discovered after recabling an RS-1 and Edition 9 in March/April that I could hear a bright sheen burn-off the cables over a 50-100 hour period of time. All of this goes against stuff I wrote here back in march a couple of pages ago. So, everyone should keep an open mind.


----------



## olblueyez

Im glad you like the cable Addict, I ordered one identical to that one with RCA's on both ends because I loved that one so much.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im glad you like the cable Addict, I ordered one identical to that one with RCA's on both ends because I loved that one so much._

 

You really should try the ALO SXC interconnects now - they are another step above, if you don't mind paying 2x the cost. Still, the Soloz and the anti-cables are a big bang for the buck. So are the Whirly Wisp silver cables by mmwwhats - $40 for a dead soft solid silver in a teflon air tube dielectric, only outperformed by a $100 anti-cables IC!


----------



## btbluesky

I wonder how the anti-cable beat the 99.9% solid silver 19 guage IC. That is IF the cable is for sure 99.9% silver as Idahan on audiogon claims. Anyone else has experience with this little ungoogleable product?


----------



## Happy Camper

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadphoneAddict* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.....I also discovered after recabling an RS-1 and Edition 9 in March/April that I could hear a bright sheen burn-off the cables over a 50-100 hour period of time. All of this goes against stuff I wrote here back in march a couple of pages ago. So, everyone should keep an open mind._

 

Nice to have people admit to their ignorance in respect to cable and IC experiences. How easy it is to deny the unknown. I was one as well. I am glad I checked it out. Big difference with the RS-1s?


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice to have people admit to their ignorance in respect to cable and IC experiences. How easy it is to deny the unknown. I was one as well. I am glad I checked it out. Big difference with the RS-1s?_

 

The APS re-cable was a noticeable improvement with the RS-2 and Edition 9 and HD600, but I never heard the RS-1 with the stock cable as I bought it from APS with the re-cable already done. I posted the link to my review of APS V3 cable in my public profile, as I have done with my other reviews and a few are on cables and interconnects.


----------



## Happy Camper

My point may not have been taken in the way intended. For such an experienced person as you to recognize differences and to ask for an open mind shows that skeptics are missing better sound because they won't accept your (or anybody's) experience to try. I admit my previous ignorance to the possibility that cables or ICs could make a not so subtle difference was incorrect and I'm glad I took the time to find out. 

 Man, you have a lot of gear.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Happy Camper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My point may not have been taken in the way intended. For such an experienced person as you to recognize differences and to ask for an open mind shows that skeptics are missing better sound because they won't accept your (or anybody's) experience to try. I admit my previous ignorance to the possibility that cables or ICs could make a not so subtle difference was incorrect and I'm glad I took the time to find out. 

 Man, you have a lot of gear._

 

I understood what you were saying. But it looked like you asked a question at the end when you said "Big difference with the RS-1s?" so I decided to address that one first.

 I didn't think the other issue needed further comment - there are obviously cable believers and non-believers, and sometimes non-believers (in anything) are more difficult to convince to consider the other options. 

 I try to keep an open mind, and investigate that which I don't understand. As for a lot of gear - having good gear is sometimes critical in being able to hear the little things (like cables). I always say start/upgrade to a decent source and headphones before cables, because otherwise you may not hear what the cables do for you.

 Cheers!


----------



## dd051

what's the most you all have spent on cables?


----------



## Happy Camper

For one cable (pr), $300 + $100 for a toslink cable on the home unit & $100 on an ipod dock. Throughout the 7.1 HT, I don't want to think about it.


----------



## padam

If I recable my Denon with APS V3 and I decide to use the Pico as a preamp shall I use APS mini to RCA interconnect cables or some other?

 Also my problem is that at first I may just use it with the Pico so I also don't know if the headphone cable should be terminated with a 1/4 or a 1/8 jack. Fortunately I have plenty of time to think about it (terrible exchange rate at the moment) but replies are welcome


----------



## melomaniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *btbluesky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder how the anti-cable beat the 99.9% solid silver 19 guage IC. That is IF the cable is for sure 99.9% silver as Idahan on audiogon claims._

 

quick quote from Paul Speltz about the benefits of his "Anti" products that simply use air as the best dielectric instead of plastic:

 "Jitter distortion (in digital audio), and Dielectric Effect distortion (in cables) are both time based distortions. Both tend to smear the time domain of the music signal. When a transient music event gets time smeared, it loses amplitude energy, in exchange for lasting longer in time. Think back to your Calculus classes where the energy under two curves are equal, but one is taller and faster, and the other is not as tall, but lasts longer. When the time smearing distortion is removed the music sounds clearer and dynamically louder."


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dd051* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what's the most you all have spent on cables_

 

About $600, for the RSAD Poiema!!! Signature XLR cable... Stunning cable!


----------



## HeadLover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About $600, for the RSAD Poiema!!! Signature XLR cable... Stunning cable! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Have link so I can see them to ?


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *HeadLover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have link so I can see them to ?



_

 

Sure!
Ridge Street Audio Designs

 Picture of mine:


----------



## Audio-Omega

What about Tara Labs interconnects ? You can find "cheap" RSC Air at Ebay.


----------



## boozcool

Hey everybody,
 I'm using an E-mu 0202 DAC with a KICAS Caliente amp. The E-mu has 1/4" TS outputs, and the KICAS Caliente has RCA inputs. Can anyone recommend high quality cable manufacturers that offer those specific cables? 
 Thanks!


----------

