# EMU 0404 USB - really the best?



## edba2000

This matter is getting very confusing. 
 Some people say the EMU 0404 USB is the best (even better than the Benchmark DAC1!!), another say Prelude 7.1 is the best, others are saying DIY Monica DAC is also the best!, and so on...

 I know that the people ears are all different, but.. It would be nice to have a Thread with sound cards (internal and external - price/quality) votes. 

 Thanks in advance to all.


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## jiiteepee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edba2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This matter is getting very confusing. 
 Some people say the EMU 0404 USB is the best (even better than the Benchmark DAC1!!), another say Prelude 7.1 is the best, others are saying DIY Monica DAC is also the best!, and so on...

 I know that the people ears are all different, but.. It would be nice to have a Thread with sound cards (internal and external - price/quality) votes. 

 Thanks in advance to all._

 

Maybe the thruth in this is that everyone rates his/her card the best available ... so they can give a reason for themself of made purchases.

 I have had E-MU 0404 USB now few days and all I can say is, i'ts an excellent device even it's highly strung for some processes as like dongle driver (Sentinel driver just can't be running while using this device --> distortion / out of sync issues).

 jiitee


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## technobarbie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edba2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some people say the EMU 0404 USB is the best (even better than the Benchmark DAC1!!)_

 

I have the EMU 0404 PCI version, and I am upgrading to the Benchmark DAC1. I find that opinion hard to swallow. I hope it's wrong.


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## sejarzo

I obviously like the E-MU 0404 USB, but probably a bit more from the value standpoint rather than absolute quality. I wouldn't doubt for a second that I'd prefer the DAC-1 USB, but when street prices for the E-MU delivered are only $175 versus the DAC-1 at $1300.......geez, that's $1125 difference to spend on CD's, cans, headamps, etc. etc.

 In my case, I also bought a Marantz SA8001 so I can enjoy SACD's.....the following is from the recent Stereophile review:

 "To my ears, the SA8001 (in "Red Book" mode) was every bit the equal of the Benchmark DAC-1 (using the SA8001 as a transport)—which, last time I looked, was still in Class A of Stereophile's "Recommended Components." And the SA8001 player has some advantages over the DAC-1: the Benchmark doesn't have a transport and can't do SACDs."

 And I paid only $560 for a 3 week old SA8001. The total cost to me for the new E-MU and the nearly-new SA8001 was $732, and I've not yet seen a used DAC-1 USB go for anywhere near that little. To me, I'm much happier having the capability of CD *and *SACD *and *PC-based listening....and I attained that at $570 or so less than the cost of a new DAC-1 USB.

 There is enough difference between all of these devices that there is room for personal preference, both in how the device performs on an absolute basis, and how it performs on the type of music you listen to most. If one listens to a lot of edgy/hot mastered material, then maybe a Monica would indeed suit your tastes better than a DAC-1.

 You should always buy what your own ear tells you is good, not for what people you don't know vote for....at least if you are serious about enjoying music more than impressing others!


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## Rempert

You can only learn so much from reviews and recommendations, because each person only has experience with a limited set of gear. This is made worse by the "flavor of the month" effect, where an item gets a strong recommendation leading a large number of new head-fi members (who have nothing comparable in their experience) to buy it, and of course they all love it, and then they recommend it at every opportunity. But those recommendations only really carry the weight of a satisfied customer, not the weight of an expert in the field. So they are little better than reading reviews at amazon.com or whatever. Trying to piece together those reviews and make a definitive list of what is "the best" is beyond impossible.

 That said, the EMU line has been a flavor of the month for several years now, so the ratio of happy customers must be pretty high.


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## technobarbie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I obviously like the E-MU 0404 USB, but probably a bit more from the value standpoint rather than absolute quality. I wouldn't doubt for a second that I'd prefer the DAC-1 USB, but when street prices for the E-MU delivered are only $175 versus the DAC-1 at $1300.......geez, that's $1125 difference to spend on CD's, cans, headamps, etc. etc._

 

How are you connecting the EMU to the CDP? It has no inputs. Sorry for the dumb question.


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## sejarzo

Personally, I don't connect the E-MU to my CDP......I find that I prefer the DAC section in the Marantz to the E-MU.

 And I'm confused about the question.......there are both coax and optical S/PDIF inputs and outputs on the 0404 USB, plus there have been quite a few posts on the forum about how to connect and configure the unit to run as a standalone DAC.

 Take a look at this page for details on the connections available:

E-MU Systems - 0404 USB 2.0 - USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface


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## technobarbie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, I don't connect the E-MU to my CDP......I find that I prefer the DAC section in the Marantz to the E-MU._

 

Ahh, I see. I've been looking at that particular CDP. It's still on my Christmas wish list. Yes I'm starting early.


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## ojnihs

the 0404 usb is a great bang-for-the-buck dac, but i would hardly say that it's the best. far from it.

 for people like me who are content with a mid-fi setup, i'd say it's quite good.


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## edba2000

Of course that it is not easy to believe what is best and what is worst, but if everybody can pick the best from two options then, after several posts, it becomes quite easy to pick a good DAC.

 I am not looking for an high end audiophile DAC!! Just trying to find a way to improve my sound system (from an "Arcam Alpha 7" CDP). 

 Thanks again.


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *technobarbie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahh, I see. I've been looking at that particular CDP. It's still on my Christmas wish list. Yes I'm starting early._

 

By Christmas, you should be able to pick up a used SA8001 for $475, I'd bet. The internal headphone amp in it isn't bad, either.....I'd rather listen to a CD played via the SA8001's headamp versus a FLAC played back via a PC and the 0404 USB's internal headamp. 

 Let's just hope that the transport issues that have come to plague the SA8260 don't surface with the SA8001.


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## dizzyorange

The best words to describe the EMU are:

 clean
 crisp
 detailed


 It's quite a good DAC. Don't be misled by the argument that there's so many functions, and you will only be using one of them. It's a great value even if you are using it just for the DAC. Be aware that the outputs are 1/4" mono jacks or 1/8" stereo jack.

 If I had to pick on the EMU, I'd say that it can be a tad dry compared to other DACs.


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## regal

being better than a Benchmark DAC1 is really not saying much at all. The only thing the DAC1 ever had going for it was the balanced output. If you don't need that there are many many DAC's with smoother fuller sound for much less $'s.


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## technobarbie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_being better than a Benchmark DAC1 is really not saying much at all. The only thing the DAC1 ever had going for it was the balanced output. If you don't need that there are many many DAC's with smoother fuller sound for much less $'s._

 

I've been going back-and-forth between a EMU 0404/Headroom Desktop Amp and a Benchmark DAC1, for about a year now. I thought I'd finally made a decision. I think I may be wrong. Grrr. This is like throwing darts blind-folded.


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *technobarbie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been going back-and-forth between a EMU 0404/Headroom Desktop Amp and a Benchmark DAC1, for about a year now. I thought I'd finally made a decision. I think I may be wrong. Grrr. This is like throwing darts blind-folded._

 

FWIW......the DAC1 has a large following in the pro community, because they feel it's extraordinarily transparent and honest. One fellow I know who runs a small label focused on acoustic/classical material, recorded in "real performance spaces", says he uses the DAC1 because then he's sure that he's hearing as uncolored a version of the mix as possible. He still has Lynx and Apogee DAC's in his studio, but the DAC1 is the one he uses now for critical applications.

 I understand where some folks are coming from re the "sound of the DAC1", but remember that you're always hearing the combination of the CD/source material plus the DAC. As poorly as most recent pop/rock CD's are produced, well......the DAC1 is probably just showing them to be exactly what they are.


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## edba2000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_being better than a Benchmark DAC1 is really not saying much at all. The only thing the DAC1 ever had going for it was the balanced output. If you don't need that there are many many DAC's with smoother fuller sound for much less $'s._

 

I don't need the balanced outputs. What other DACs with "smoother fuller sound for much less" do you know? As you didn't mention the EMU 0404, you probably wouldn't go for it..?


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## d-cee

0404 USB is not even close to the best

 it's just the result of hype since its price allows it to be accesible to many


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## riverlethe

Who said the EMU0404 is better than a DAC1, and by what standard? I wouldn't be surprised if they're audibly equivalent.
 As for "smoothness" or "fullness," you have a computer as source. You can use EQ and DSP to produce various types of distortion.


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## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *d-cee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_0404 USB is not even close to the best

 it's just the result of hype since its price allows it to be accesible to many_

 

What is the best, and why?


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## d-cee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the best, and why?_

 

there is no best

 why? because everyone has different ears

 audio hardware reaches a point where preference and taste become the main deciding factor 

 technically superior may not always necessarily mean most suitable for


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## sejarzo

I agree with d-cee. There are some obviously lousy pieces of gear on the low end, and some outshine others in terms of their performance for the price paid (case in point, the Chaintech AV-710.) Last year, it was a relative no-brainer to say that if one had only $35 to spend on a sound card, the AV-710 was "the best option"......not the best in any absolute sense, but we are rarely free to make decisions without any regard to cost, right?

 IMHO, as one climbs the price scale, gear sounds more and more alike.....the errors from neutrality become smaller and smaller.....they don't hit the bullseye of "perfect reproduction", but they get closer and closer to it. That makes it easier to choose components with "offsetting errors" that provide what the user feels is the most satisfying or realistic listening experience, depending on one's tastes.


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## edba2000

I am also finding hard to believe that the 0404 USB can beat DAC1. How can a 200$ device compete with a 1300$ one? If this is true then everybody buy the 0404 and save 1100$!!

 So... changing the question of this thread, what is the best choice to buy with 200$~300$?


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## edba2000

From the following list, is there a clear winner?

 - EMU 0404 USB
 - ESI Juli@ soundcard
 - Monica II USB
 - Onkyo SE-U55SX
 - Beresford TC-7510 Mk6/3
 - Auzen Prelude 7.1
 - KECES PCM2702 USB DAC
 - DDDAC
 - iBasso D1
 - Lecekrton UHA-3
 - Go-Vibe Petite
 - Headstage Lyrix Pro
 - Fubar 3
 - Headamp Pico
 - RSA Predator
 - Trends Audio UD-10
 - edirol UA-1EX
 - Chaintech AV-710
 - Zhaolu D3

 - Others...


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## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *d-cee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_there is no best

 why? because everyone has different ears

 audio hardware reaches a point where preference and taste become the main deciding factor 

 technically superior may not always necessarily mean most suitable for_

 

I agree. I personally would not be willing to spend money on a subjective improvement without understanding the technical reason(s) for it, and I certainly wouldn't spend more money on perceived technical inferiority. If it's as simple as a shift in tonal balance, there are much cheaper ways of accomplishing that.


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edba2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From the following list, is there a clear winner?..._

 

I think if you re-read our responses, the clear answer is no, there isn't. There are some on the list that are clearly better than others, but we all don't share the same ears or cost-to-benefit philosophy.

 This is sort of an exaggeration, but here goes.......I think Sennheiser HD600's are fantastic. Apparently, their frequency response characteristics match my ear/head shape, ear canal geometry, etc. etc. well, and I find them very flat, very accurate in general. Not the slightest bit "veiled", too.

 On the other hand......the appeal of Grados escapes me completely. They all sound far less accurate to me, much more "hi-fi", with exaggerated mid-bass, over-sparkly highs, a "hyped" sound--regardless of price point. Maybe they sound "good" on rock, but for classical--no stinkin' way, at least in my book!

 But you will find classical listeners who swear by Grado, who think Senn's are hideously veiled/slow/dead/muffled or whatever. Who's right?

 When it comes to electronics, the differences are much more subtle than between headphones--but still, it will all come down to what satisfies you most....then buy it, be happy, and enjoy the music without worrying if it's not exactly what others think is best.


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## d-cee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edba2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From the following list, is there a clear winner?_

 

no, otherwise everyone would use the same equipment

 find something that meets your budget, has the features you need and is generally not considered crap and you're most of the way there

 the rest of the way is trying to audition your short list and then deciding which one you like best based on *hearing them yourself*

 if not, it is just a matter of buying used and selling until you reach what you're happy with


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## jeremy6044

Is there an equivalent external dac/soundcard to the chaintech av-710? Since i switched to a laptop, I'd like to spend $35 for something that has as good sound as the chaintech.


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## Brian loves music

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *d-cee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the rest of the way is trying to audition your short list and then deciding which one you like best based on *hearing them yourself*

 if not, it is just a matter of buying used and selling until you reach what you're happy with_

 

C'est la viv


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## ph0rk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_being better than a Benchmark DAC1 is really not saying much at all. The only thing the DAC1 ever had going for it was the balanced output. If you don't need that there are many many DAC's with smoother fuller sound for much less $'s._

 

and the 0404 USB has balanced outs (TRS 1/4").


 It isn't the alpha and omega, but it is possibly the best to be had (new) under $150.


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## edba2000

Thanks to all.

 Since it is not easy for me to listen the soundcards/DACs from this list without buying, I need to keep reading foruns and search for more opinions. I have no money to buy several DACs and perform the tests by myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Maybe I buy the EMU 0404 now and next year search again for a better option.

 jeremy6044: try the "Edirol UA-1EX USB" for $75 (I can't tell you if this is much better than what you have)


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## ZepFloyd

this is a completely noob question, but the emu can basically be used as a DAC correct?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZepFloyd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_this is a completely noob question, but the emu can basically be used as a DAC correct?_

 

Yes, the 0404 USB can be used as a standalone DAC via its digital coaxial or optical inputs.


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## ZepFloyd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, the 0404 USB can be used as a standalone DAC via its digital coaxial or optical inputs._

 

so you would just need like an RCA to mini interconnect or something to hook it up to your amp?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZepFloyd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so you would just need like an RCA to mini interconnect or something to hook it up to your amp?_

 

You could use a 1/8" stereo mini to two RCA Y-adapter, but a better option is two 1/4" mono TS to RCA cables (or two RCA-RCA cables with RCA to 1/4" adapters on one set of ends).


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZepFloyd* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so you would just need like an RCA to mini interconnect or something to hook it up to your amp?_

 

Or 1/4" TS plug-to-RCA female adapters, plus standard RCA cables......

RadioShack.com - Cables, Parts & Connectors: Connectors & connectivity: A/V connectors & adapters: Gold-Plated Phono-to-Mono Adapter


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## indysmith

* Macintosh analog operation up to 96kHz and digital operation up to 48kHz only at this time.


 I just read this on the EMU site: anyone know what that's all about??


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *indysmith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just read this on the EMU site: anyone know what that's all about??_

 

Possibly an issue working with CoreAudio and USB. The only way they could get higher sampling rates to work over USB in Windows was to build their own USB drivers from scratch, instead of using the supplied drivers.

 Most audio interfaces designed for Macintoshes work via Firewire, so perhaps it's easier to implement. It could also be due to inexperience coding drivers for OS X.


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## ph0rk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *indysmith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_* Macintosh analog operation up to 96kHz and digital operation up to 48kHz only at this time.


 I just read this on the EMU site: anyone know what that's all about??_

 

Input, perhaps.

 It will run in 96/24 out via usb on 10.4 and 10.5. (not 192, but I doubt you'd notice).


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## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could use a 1/8" stereo mini to two RCA Y-adapter, but a better option is two 1/4" mono TS to RCA cables (or two RCA-RCA cables with RCA to 1/4" adapters on one set of ends)._

 

I dont understand why the latter would be a "better" option. Since the two connections are on the same output, wouldnt they be the same?


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *penguindude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I dont understand why the latter would be a "better" option. Since the two connections are on the same output, wouldnt they be the same?_

 

Larger contact areas (vs. one small contact area for both channels), further physical separation between cables, and the possibility of using larger gauge wire.


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## Brian loves music

does any up-sample with their emu 0404 usb? I get tons of lag when I try...i can only do 46 and 88 w/o cracks and pops? 

 Not exactly sure what up-sampling does...anyone notice an effect in sound quality? does it matter that i dont use another amp for my hd595s?

 got give some mad props to the emu 0404 usb hizooww


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Brian loves music* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does any up-sample with their emu 0404 usb? I get tons of lag when I try...i can only do 46 and 88 w/o cracks and pops? 

 Not exactly sure what up-sampling does...anyone notice an effect in sound quality? does it matter that i dont use another amp for my hd595s?_

 

Upsampling by itself shouldn't do anything. It's like taking a picture and enlarging it--the information itself is the same, but the picture is bigger. It only makes a difference when it's used for oversampling.

 Theoretically, upsampling should sound the same, but it doesn't because an interpolation filter is required to make it sound more pleasing. This means that upsampling is an imperfect representation of the original signal.

 If you experience lag when upsampling, it's probably due to your computer's speed. Perfect upsampling would require an infinite amount of calculations, so just approximating ideal upsampling requires a fast computer.

 It's up to you, but I wouldn't upsample unless it was required.


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## Brian loves music

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Upsampling by itself shouldn't do anything. It's like taking a picture and enlarging it--the information itself is the same, but the picture is bigger. It only makes a difference when it's used for oversampling.

 Theoretically, upsampling should sound the same, but it doesn't because an interpolation filter is required to make it sound more pleasing. This means that upsampling is an imperfect representation of the original signal.

 If you experience lag when upsampling, it's probably due to your computer's speed. Perfect upsampling would require an infinite amount of calculations, so just approximating ideal upsampling requires a fast computer.

 It's up to you, but I wouldn't upsample unless it was required._

 


 thanks for the reply, defintely won't be upsampling

 quick question however: 99% of my recordings are 44hz and the emu 0404 usb displays a sample rate of 44hz in the control pannel, which makes sense. However, when I play my 24bit/96hz vinyl rip of OK computer, it still display 44hz even though winamp says it 96hz. So is it down-sampling? Will this effect sound quality? Is there a way to make it auto sync. I can set the sample rate on the emu control panel to 96hz no problem, just a little anoying.


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## andre.beat

Mine autosyncs. Although I use foobar with ASIO. Also try selecting the sync source to internal if it already isn't.


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## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *andre.beat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mine autosyncs. Although I use foobar with ASIO. Also try selecting the sync source to internal if it already isn't._

 

I don't yet understand why, because I have the same versions of Foobar, ASIO, and the 0404 USB drivers, all configured the same way on both my desktop and my notebook, but autosync behaves differently to some degree.

 I can enable/disable upsampling to 96 kHz in Foobar on my notebook "on the fly" (while I am playing a cut in Foobar) and the 0404 USB doesn't miss a beat--there might be a little click, but the unit immediately resyncs to the higher/lower rate with no problems.

 OTOH, if I enable upsampling in the middle of a cut with my desktop, the music immediately slows down and the pitch drops. For some reason, the instruction to change sampling rate seems not to make it through to the external box, so it keeps reclocking the data to the d/a at 44.1 kHz. The E-MU control panels shows that it's sync'ed at the higher rate, but that is really untrue--it's just sending the data over at the higher rate.

 If I stop and restart playback, then the external box resyncs to the new rate.

 Seems as if the behavior you are experiencing is different from either of my machines--so this all may have to do with some unusual behavior of the driver on various systems?


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## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edba2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am also finding hard to believe that the 0404 USB can beat DAC1. How can a 200$ device compete with a 1300$ one? If this is true then everybody buy the 0404 and save 1100$!!

 So... changing the question of this thread, what is the best choice to buy with 200$~300$?_

 

Why is this hard to believe? The DAC processor used in a DAC1 costs $2.50. Op-amps are about $0.60. Elias even stated in the Benchmark thread that the face-plate is the most expensive component of the DAC1. The DAC1's claims to fame are driver-less 24-bit over USB, which is almost useless for an end-user (Do you really need 140dB of dynamic range and frequencies a dog can't even hear?), and Ultra-Lock, which reduces jitter that probably wasn't audible in the first place.


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why is this hard to believe? The DAC processor used in a DAC1 costs $2.50. Op-amps are about $0.60. Elias even stated in the Benchmark thread that the face-plate is the most expensive component of the DAC1. The DAC1's claims to fame are driver-less 24-bit over USB, which is almost useless for an end-user (Do you really need 140dB of dynamic range and frequencies a dog can't even hear?), and Ultra-Lock, which reduces jitter that probably wasn't audible in the first place._

 

Elias has stated that cost was no object in the design of the DAC1, regarding the audio portion. He picked the best parts available for his circuit, even if they happened to be less expensive than other possible part choices. The design of the DAC1 and how it incorporates upsampling/oversampling is somewhat unique, and it's based on measurements designed to get the best sound quality out of the chosen parts, specifically the AD1853 DAC.

 24-bit is not useless; it's the current standard when it comes to recording. Since Benchmark markets to the studio crowd, it's essential to support 24-bit playback. Not to mention that in my experience, a 24-bit signal sounds more dynamically accurate than lower bit-rates. From 0% to 100%, a 16-bit signal has 65,536 possible values, while a 24-bit signal has 16,777,216 values; the signal will have higher resolution even when it's not going from one loudness extreme to another. Consider that even if only the top 10% of dynamic range is used (for example with a limited or compressed recording), a 24-bit signal would still have 1,671,168 more possible values than a 16-bit recording.


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## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Elias has stated that cost was no object in the design of the DAC1, regarding the audio portion. He picked the best parts available for his circuit, even if they happened to be less expensive than other possible part choices. The design of the DAC1 and how it incorporates upsampling/oversampling is somewhat unique, and it's based on measurements designed to get the best sound quality out of the chosen parts, specifically the AD1853 DAC.

 24-bit is not useless; it's the current standard when it comes to recording. Since Benchmark markets to the studio crowd, it's essential to support 24-bit playback. Not to mention that in my experience, a 24-bit signal sounds more dynamically accurate than lower bit-rates. From 0% to 100%, a 16-bit signal has 65,536 possible values, while a 24-bit signal has 16,777,216 values; the signal will have higher resolution even when it's not going from one loudness extreme to another. Consider that even if only the top 10% of dynamic range is used (for example with a limited or compressed recording), a 24-bit signal would still have 1,671,168 more possible values than a 16-bit recording._

 

I'm not saying Benchmark should've chosen more expensive parts- simply that it's not that expensive with modern microchip techology to get incredible performance. I'd be surprised if the DAC1 cost more than $100 in parts. 
 If there is any audible difference between devices, my uneducated guess is that it would be due to superior power supply and circuit layout, not computer chips with capabilities ranging from beyond human perception to far beyond human perception.

 I did say 24-bit is almost useless for the _end-user._ (I say almost because Elias made a point about multiple audio streams playing at once or various other software manipulations, where 24-bit would be less likely to give audible degradation.) I realize there are various reasons for it in recording, and the DAC1 is also a studio device. 

 What is "dynamically accurate?"

 This is my source regarding 24-bit, etc.: 
http://http://theaudiocritic.com/blo...Id=41&blogId=1

 The author sounds a little biased, but his source is formidable.

 Anyway, I plan to A/B these two devices. If I can't hear a difference I will be selling the DAC1.


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is "dynamically accurate?"_

 

Closer to the dynamics of the original performance. But specifically, comparing dithered 16-bit files to the original 24-bit files, I found the 16-bit versions lacking. They were full-band recordings I'd produced, mixed, and mastered, so I was especially familiar with how they were supposed to sound.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* 
_This is my source regarding 24-bit, etc.: 
http://http://theaudiocritic.com/blo...Id=41&blogId=1

 The author sounds a little biased, but his source is formidable._

 

I read through the original study back in 2007, and while it was interesting, I didn't consider it to be a terminal blow against high-res. IIRC, a group of older people couldn't hear the difference on mid-range / low-end components, and a group of young college students couldn't hear the difference in a recording studio. I'm not sure that those tests would necessarily be valid for the entire population. I'd start by questioning the resolution of the equipment and then the experience of the listeners, but I understand that can be a slippery slope (i.e. what's good enough?).

 But specifically, I can't fathom anyone not hearing the difference between a redbook CD and a SACD on the Pioneer DV-563A, the low-budget universal player that was used for the first official test. It uses the original analog filter method for playing back the DSD stream, which results in significant artifacts in the audible frequency range. In other words, I would expect a CD version of the same audio source to sound better (or at least audibly different) than the SACD version on that particular player. In a test like this, there are a lot of variables!

 I think it's great that you're planning to A-B the DAC1 against the 0404 USB. It's the only way to be certain about which you'd prefer. Let us know your impressions! I've never heard a DAC1, so I'm particularly interested. Just be sure to give yourself time to adjust to the DAC1's sound signature.

 In the mean time, what's your opinion of the 0404 USB's sound signature / how does it sound in your system?


----------



## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Closer to the dynamics of the original performance. But specifically, comparing dithered 16-bit files to the original 24-bit files, I found the 16-bit versions lacking. They were full-band recordings I'd produced, mixed, and mastered, so I was especially familiar with how they were supposed to sound.


 I read through the original study back in 2007, and while it was interesting, I didn't consider it to be a terminal blow against high-res. IIRC, a group of older people couldn't hear the difference on mid-range / low-end components, and a group of young college students couldn't hear the difference in a recording studio. I'm not sure that those tests would necessarily be valid for the entire population. I'd start by questioning the resolution of the equipment and then the experience of the listeners, but I understand that can be a slippery slope (i.e. what's good enough?).

 But specifically, I can't fathom anyone not hearing the difference between a redbook CD and a SACD on the Pioneer DV-563A, the low-budget universal player that was used for the first official test. It uses the original analog filter method for playing back the DSD stream, which results in significant artifacts in the audible frequency range. In other words, I would expect a CD version of the same audio source to sound better (or at least audibly different) than the SACD version on that particular player. In a test like this, there are a lot of variables!

 I think it's great that you're planning to A-B the DAC1 against the 0404 USB. It's the only way to be certain about which you'd prefer. Let us know your impressions! I've never heard a DAC1, so I'm particularly interested. Just be sure to give yourself time to adjust to the DAC1's sound signature.

 In the mean time, what's your opinion of the 0404 USB's sound signature / how does it sound in your system?_

 

Alright, so this test is questionable, according to your description. Such a test couldn't "prove" anything, as Peter Aczel seems to think. Subjective impressions are also highly questionable. Now what? 

 I currently have the DAC1 USB and am quite happy with its sound. I intend to level match it with an EMU0404 USB and see if I can perceive any differences.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Alright, so this test is questionable, according to your description. Such a test couldn't "prove" anything, as Peter Aczel seems to think. Subjective impressions are also highly questionable. Now what? _

 

Good question... I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible to objectively test for subjective differences. Everyone hears differently, not always in terms of better or worse; couple those physical differences with subjective preferences and you'll have a million conflicting opinions about what sounds best.

 In the end, your own opinion matters the most. Maybe you care about accuracy and want the best-measuring gear, or you care more about musicality and go for gear with known harmonic distortion. Some people can't hear the difference between gear, and for them, anything will do. So, everyone's mileage may vary.

 The positive effect is that, given enough opinions from people who have compared gear, we can gain a general idea about how a piece of equipment might sound in our own systems. From there, we can determine if it's worth the cost of upgrading. I imagine this is your reason for testing the 0404 USB vs. DAC1. If you can't hear a significant (or cost-justifiable) difference, then the 0404 USB is the logical choice for you.


----------



## andre.beat

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't yet understand why, because I have the same versions of Foobar, ASIO, and the 0404 USB drivers, all configured the same way on both my desktop and my notebook, but autosync behaves differently to some degree.

 I can enable/disable upsampling to 96 kHz in Foobar on my notebook "on the fly" (while I am playing a cut in Foobar) and the 0404 USB doesn't miss a beat--there might be a little click, but the unit immediately resyncs to the higher/lower rate with no problems.

 OTOH, if I enable upsampling in the middle of a cut with my desktop, the music immediately slows down and the pitch drops. For some reason, the instruction to change sampling rate seems not to make it through to the external box, so it keeps reclocking the data to the d/a at 44.1 kHz. The E-MU control panels shows that it's sync'ed at the higher rate, but that is really untrue--it's just sending the data over at the higher rate.

 If I stop and restart playback, then the external box resyncs to the new rate.

 Seems as if the behavior you are experiencing is different from either of my machines--so this all may have to do with some unusual behavior of the driver on various systems?_

 

I can't change the sample rate "on the fly" as the option is grayed out. I don't mind though as it autosyncs


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *andre.beat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't change the sample rate "on the fly" as the option is grayed out. I don't mind though as it autosyncs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I should have been more clear......what I meant was that I can enable or disable upsampling (or change the resampling rate) within Foobar "on the fly" on my notebook, and the playback, other than maybe a small click or delay, is unchanged--for some reason, the external box gets the message that data is going to be coming over at a new rate. The rate in that grayed-out box in the E-MU control panel changes to match the rate of data being fed forward by Foobar.

 With my desktop, if I enable/disable/change resampling, the box still thinks it's getting data at the rate at which it started playing, so the playback speed and pitch change accordingly. The grayed-out rate in the control panel stays the same, but Foobar is feeding it at the rate set in the resampler plug-in.

 Strange, eh?


----------



## Herr Kaufmann

I'm definitely going to take something in this price range... what should i go for - EMU 0404 or Beresford DAC + usb-coax adapter

 ?????????????????

 The set-up is going to be as follows

 1st source -> PC - ? (EMU or Beresford) - Denon 700AE AMP - KEF iQ3
 2nd source -> Denon 700AE CDP - Denon 700AE AMP - KEF iQ3

 After i decide what to do with the DAC, i'll go for headphone AMP which is going to be connected through Denon AMP.


----------



## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Good question... I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible to objectively test for subjective differences. Everyone hears differently, not always in terms of better or worse; couple those physical differences with subjective preferences and you'll have a million conflicting opinions about what sounds best.

 In the end, your own opinion matters the most. Maybe you care about accuracy and want the best-measuring gear, or you care more about musicality and go for gear with known harmonic distortion. Some people can't hear the difference between gear, and for them, anything will do. So, everyone's mileage may vary.

 The positive effect is that, given enough opinions from people who have compared gear, we can gain a general idea about how a piece of equipment might sound in our own systems. From there, we can determine if it's worth the cost of upgrading. I imagine this is your reason for testing the 0404 USB vs. DAC1. If you can't hear a significant (or cost-justifiable) difference, then the 0404 USB is the logical choice for you._

 

I haven't been able to level-match since the spectrum analyzer/SPL meter I ordered with the EMU isn't working yet. However, I have some initial impressions. 

 Build-quality is sub-par on the E-MU, with audible squeaking on the headphone volume knob. Driver-less function alone may justify the cost of the DAC1 to some people, as it took me over an hour to get the E-MU to function with beta drivers for Vista. 

 The DAC1 seems bassier and less shrill with the K701's. The DAC1 doesn't "shriek" as much, even at full volume. I can't be sure without level matching, nor can I comment on which sound is more accurate without having a reference.

 Edit: Is the up-sampling of the DAC1 likely to "smooth" over the sound in some way?


----------



## riverlethe

Now that I've got them within a decibel of each other, I'm having some difficulty hearing a difference. Anyone care to suggest what I should listen for?


----------



## Herr Kaufmann

Does anyone has a answer or suggestion to my question?


----------



## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Herr Kaufmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone has a answer or suggestion to my question?_

 

My impression is that the Beresford is a colored audiophile device and the EMU 0404 is a pro device. I could be wrong...


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now that I've got them within a decibel of each other, I'm having some difficulty hearing a difference. Anyone care to suggest what I should listen for?_

 

Resolution - can you hear "into" the recording / is there a sense of space?

 Detail - how easily can you hear all of the individual instruments / are you hearing things that you've never heard before?

 Accuracy - does the timbre change depending on the recording, or does the 
 device apply its sound signature to everything?

 Extension - how clear and open are the extreme highs and lows?

 Imaging - how easily can you tell where the instruments are located in the mix?

 Soundstage - how wide is the range of left-to-right movement?

 --

 Those aren't strict definitions, but they should give you some idea of what the differences might be. Your ability to hear a difference will also depend on the characteristics of your playback equipment, though K701s should be good for testing.

 Poor upsampling can smooth over the sound and create unrealistic sounding high frequencies, but the way it's implemented in the DAC1 should have a positive effect on sound quality.

 You may find that the shrillness (low treble brightness) you experienced with the 0404 USB is the major difference between the two DACs, but with more listening, you may find further subtle differences. Try to listen to them over a speaker system if you can, as speakers often reveal spatial cues that headphones can't.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Herr Kaufmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone has a answer or suggestion to my question?_

 

I'd go with the 0404 USB... Better parts, better resale value, doesn't have six revisions.


----------



## riverlethe

I am noticing a "sound" with the EMU0404, but I have no vocabulary for it. It may just be that the DAC1 is able to get more low frequencies out of the K701.

 How can upsampling have a positive impact on sound quality?


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How can upsampling have a positive impact on sound quality?_

 

The ASRC method used by the DAC1 is based on the performance of the chip being best at a 110 kHz sample rate......it's set up so no matter what data rate is fed to the input of the DAC1, what goes to the d/a chip itself is a 110 kHz stream, if I understand correctly what I've read on the long DAC1 thread.

 There have been many, umm....."lively" discussions about the pros/cons of ASRC on various audio forums over the past few years.


----------



## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Herr Kaufmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone has a answer or suggestion to my question?_

 

The Beresford is a warmer source than the EMU0404 and has a more expensive quality of sound. The EMU on the other hand, has more details. One can say the Beresford is more musical and the 0404 is more analytical and cold. Both are very good products for the price you paid, and it depends on which sound signature you prefer.


----------



## riverlethe

Should I try upsampling with the EMU0404, or is it not as well-implemented?


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Should I try upsampling with the EMU0404, or is it not as well-implemented?_

 

In general, software upsampling is not a good idea, both with plug-ins and the drivers. With the 0404 USB, it would not improve sound quality.

 As sejarzo noted, the Benchmark is somewhat unique in that it upsamples to a very specific frequency in order to get the best performance out of the AD1853 DAC chip. Any higher or lower (ex. 96 kHz or 176.4 kHz) and the performance benefits of the DAC1's upsampling might be lost. IIRC, Elias noted that going any higher than 110 kHz with the AD1853 would introduce a significant amount of aliasing distortion (this problem is specific to the AD1853). This distortion would be much worse than downsampling a higher-sampled signal to 110 kHz, which the DAC1 does. They chose the AD1853 over something more capable of higher sampling rates because the AD1853 had the most linear response throughout the majority of the frequency range.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* 
_I am noticing a "sound" with the EMU0404, but I have no vocabulary for it. It may just be that the DAC1 is able to get more low frequencies out of the K701._

 

I think it's interesting to note that you feel the 0404 USB imparts its own sound signature, because I (and possibly sejarzo) feel the same way. In my system, it sounds like a resolving DAC, but there seems to be a lower treble brightness and/or a midrange veil, and in general, the frequency response seems slightly skewed toward the high end. A few frequencies in particular have really jabbed my ear like an icepick, which surprised me. Basically, I've found it to be somewhat unforgiving of sibilance in a recording. It has also struck me as fairly aggressive-sounding, and certainly not "warm." This has been my experience with devices containing other AKM DACs as well.


----------



## Nylus

Do any of you guys think for the same or similar price you could get a better DAC than the E-MU 0404 USB?


----------



## Herr Kaufmann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *penguindude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Beresford is a warmer source than the EMU0404 and has a more expensive quality of sound. The EMU on the other hand, has more details. One can say the Beresford is more musical and the 0404 is more analytical and cold. Both are very good products for the price you paid, and it depends on which sound signature you prefer._

 

Hm.. well, i like clean production which is also "powerful" - you can feel the bass drum/guitar bumping, but with this "clean" touch ... for example - the last Tool album - 10000 Days

 Also, i like last two Laibach albums - Volk & WAT - clean, industrial, cold.

 Hmmmmm...?


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nylus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do any of you guys think for the same or similar price you could get a better DAC than the E-MU 0404 USB?_

 

Used, maybe, but probably not new. If you have enough free PCI slots and don't mind being limited to your computer, the 1212M is potentially a better option.


----------



## jilgiljongiljing

I cant seem to find the EMU 0404 anywhere for less than 200$ shipped. Time and again I see ppl mentioning that it is around 150$. I remember amazon.com once had it for around 160 with free shipping. Any idea where I can find it for that price?


----------



## Nylus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Used, maybe, but probably not new. If you have enough free PCI slots and don't mind being limited to your computer, the 1212M is potentially a better option._

 

Thanks man.


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jilgiljongiljing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cant seem to find the EMU 0404 anywhere for less than 200$ shipped. Time and again I see ppl mentioning that it is around 150$. I remember amazon.com once had it for around 160 with free shipping. Any idea where I can find it for that price?_

 

E-MU 0404 USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface - Free Shipping, Lowest Prices on Sound and Recording Cards / Audio Interfaces at Music123

 $149.99 with _free shipping_........you can't beat that!


----------



## Herr Kaufmann

hm... and which DAC would you recommend for, let's say... 300 bucks? Is there going to be any diffirence at all?

 People often make comparison between beresford DAC and high end DAC's... 

 I mean, i just entered this hi-fi world, and i don't see any point in spending 500 or 600$ more for something which is only slightly better... if u understand what i mean...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_E-MU 0404 USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface - Free Shipping, Lowest Prices on Sound and Recording Cards / Audio Interfaces at Music123

 $149.99 with free shipping........you can't beat that!_

 

um... is free shipping valid only for US or...? I'm from Europe...


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jilgiljongiljing* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I cant seem to find the EMU 0404 anywhere for less than 200$ shipped. Time and again I see ppl mentioning that it is around 150$. I remember amazon.com once had it for around 160 with free shipping. Any idea where I can find it for that price?_

 

Wow, the price really went up! When I bought one in late December, Amazon had bumped up their price from $159 to $169, and now it's $189. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Guitar Center had a deal last year where the 0404 USB was $150 after rebate, and that's the price that most people still quote.

 In addition to Music123, Musician's Friend also has the 0404 USB for $149.99 with free shipping. I think they're the same company.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Herr Kaufman* 
_hm... and which DAC would you recommend for, let's say... 300 bucks? Is there going to be any diffirence at all?_

 

You might consider one of the Zhaolu DACs. Whether or not you'll find it to be an improvement is up to your ears, and also your sense of value (i.e. cost to performance).


----------



## jilgiljongiljing

Just placed my order for the 0404's. Shall have a detailed write up and comparison with the 0202 (which is long overdue I think cos I havent seen one)


----------



## Shiesty

I can't decide between an 0404pci or an x-fi. I'll use it for gaming and music, BUT the gaming is only SPDIF in from a ps3. I don't play any actual PC games. I'm just not sure if the 0404 will translate the positional audio from the optical as well as a true gaming card.


----------



## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Herr Kaufmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hm... and which DAC would you recommend for, let's say... 300 bucks? Is there going to be any diffirence at all?

 People often make comparison between beresford DAC and high end DAC's... 

 I mean, i just entered this hi-fi world, and i don't see any point in spending 500 or 600$ more for something which is only slightly better... if u understand what i mean...



 um... is free shipping valid only for US or...? I'm from Europe..._

 

Again, it's really your choice on what sound signature you prefer.


----------



## WallyWest

Don't know if it's still running, but there was a rebate applied to my recent order from music123. I got the 0404 usb for $124.99 shipped. It's priced $149.99 on the website but when you check out they applied a $25 credit. Shipping was still free and it was pretty darn fast too.


----------



## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think it's interesting to note that you feel the 0404 USB imparts its own sound signature, because I (and possibly sejarzo) feel the same way. In my system, it sounds like a resolving DAC, but there seems to be a lower treble brightness and/or a midrange veil, and in general, the frequency response seems slightly skewed toward the high end. A few frequencies in particular have really jabbed my ear like an icepick, which surprised me. Basically, I've found it to be somewhat unforgiving of sibilance in a recording. It has also struck me as fairly aggressive-sounding, and certainly not "warm." This has been my experience with devices containing other AKM DACs as well._

 

I still don't see how two devices with flat frequency responses can sound different. The EMU0404's headphone amp is only capable of 20mw with a 22ohm output, so maybe that has something to do with it. Or maybe it's all in my head...


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shiesty* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't decide between an 0404pci or an x-fi. I'll use it for gaming and music, BUT the gaming is only SPDIF in from a ps3. I don't play any actual PC games. I'm just not sure if the 0404 will translate the positional audio from the optical as well as a true gaming card._

 

The 0404 PCI is a two-channel card, while the X-Fi cards are multi-channel. If you were referring to EAX, only computer games support it; PS3 games won't be affected.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *WallyWest* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't know if it's still running, but there was a rebate applied to my recent order from music123. I got the 0404 usb for $124.99 shipped. It's priced $149.99 on the website but when you check out they applied a $25 credit. Shipping was still free and it was pretty darn fast too._

 

That's a pretty incredible deal, indeed!


----------



## riverlethe

I have an independent confirmation of the "shrillness" of the EMU0404, without my prompting. (K701's, level-matched within a decibel) I feel fairly confident in saying these devices sound different.


----------



## greydragon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_E-MU 0404 USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface - Free Shipping, Lowest Prices on Sound and Recording Cards / Audio Interfaces at Music123

 $149.99 with free shipping........you can't beat that!_

 

Wow! Thank you so much for the link to this sweet deal. There was some discount of about $25 dollars off, and the total was ~$125 with free shipping included.

 You can't beat that folks.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still don't see how two devices with flat frequency responses can sound different. The EMU0404's headphone amp is only capable of 20mw with a 22ohm output, so maybe that has something to do with it. Or maybe it's all in my head... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

In the audio world, there are some things that measurements can't reveal. Playing music accurately is partially about timing, and this is one area where a frequency response measurement is inadequate. It's the same way with amplifiers: many measure flat and have extremely low THD, yet they still have different sound signatures.

 But you're right, the headphone section of the DAC1 is probably much better than the one in the 0404 USB, and this will affect your perception of the DACs. A better test would be to send both devices' line outputs to the same headphone amplifier.


----------



## eruditass

how does the dac section compare to a alienDAC?

 and the amp to a soha or cmoy or anything?


----------



## riverlethe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the audio world, there are some things that measurements can't reveal. Playing music accurately is partially about timing, and this is one area where a frequency response measurement is inadequate. It's the same way with amplifiers: many measure flat and have extremely low THD, yet they still have different sound signatures.

 But you're right, the headphone section of the DAC1 is probably much better than the one in the 0404 USB, and this will affect your perception of the DACs. A better test would be to send both devices' line outputs to the same headphone amplifier._

 

Doesn't the DAC1 also have superior line outputs?


----------



## [L]es

just hooked up my 0404usb from main audio rig to my desktop speakers (logitech s200). It's really good !


----------



## cowboyjack2008

Thanks for the heads up on the EMU 0404 USB at music123... $125 shipped? I'm gonna give it a try to see how it sounds out of a PC on Apple lossless ripped CDs.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DoomzDayz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how does the dac section compare to a alienDAC?

 and the amp to a soha or cmoy or anything?_

 

Much better than the Alien DAC. The headphone section is probably not as good as a well-designed DIY amp, especially if you have hard-to-drive headphones.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riverlethe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Doesn't the DAC1 also have superior line outputs? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well yeah, technically the DAC1 should be superior in every way (after all, it's 10 times more expensive). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But the point of a line output is a purer signal, because it hasn't passed through the internal headphone amplification section. I've heard reports from headphone users that while the 0404 USB's headphone section isn't so bad given the price of the unit, it doesn't reveal the true performance of the DAC, while many DAC1 users seem to feel that its internal headphone amplifier is good enough for most headphones.

 Even with both units' line outputs connected to an external headphone amplifier, I'd expect the DAC1 to sound better to most people, but you might be surprised at the improvement from the 0404 USB.


----------



## Nylus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Herr Kaufmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 um... is free shipping valid only for US or...? I'm from Europe..._

 

Just phoned them up they don't. Im from the UK and the cheapest i can find it is £130 which is like $260. ********* rediculous.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nylus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just phoned them up they don't. Im from the UK and the cheapest i can find it is £130 which is like $260. ********* rediculous. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Time to move to the U.S., or better yet, Hong Kong. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The pricing of foreign goods in the U.K. is pretty ridiculous... Just take the retail amount in USD and put a GBP symbol in front of it, because the dollar and the pound are equivalent currencies, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is it the same price in other European countries?


----------



## penguindude

The headphone amp section of the EMU0404 is overrated. While it can sufficiently drive high-impedance headphones, it's definitely no match for most sub-$200 dedicated headphone amps out there. It's too muddy, lacks impact and details. The Main Out of the 0404, however, is much better.


----------



## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Time to move to the U.S., or better yet, Hong Kong. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The pricing of foreign goods in the U.K. is pretty ridiculous... Just take the retail amount in USD and put a GBP symbol in front of it, because the dollar and the pound are equivalent currencies, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is it the same price in other European countries?_

 

Not just the UK, in Canada retail prices are pretty bad too, and we're right beside you people.


----------



## subfocus

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nylus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just phoned them up they don't. Im from the UK and the cheapest i can find it is £130 which is like $260. ********* rediculous. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

 I paid roughly the same for the E-MU a few months back. Still a bargain IMO. If this unit had any kind of half decent metal casing/faceplate then it could quite easily sell for a lot more . Considering the sheer versatility and impressive SQ of the 0404USB it still gives excellent bang for the buck I reckon ........even at UK prices.


----------



## Cankin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *penguindude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not just the UK, in Canada retail prices are pretty bad too, and we're right beside you people. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I paid about Cdn $280 for my 0404 USB


----------



## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cankin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I paid about Cdn $280 for my 0404 USB 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wow, really? Where did you get your EMU? I got mine for $215 shipped plus free t-shirt and jacket.


----------



## Cankin

Cosmo Music


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think if you re-read our responses, the clear answer is no, there isn't. There are some on the list that are clearly better than others, but we all don't share the same ears or cost-to-benefit philosophy.

 This is sort of an exaggeration, but here goes.......I think Sennheiser HD600's are fantastic. Apparently, their frequency response characteristics match my ear/head shape, ear canal geometry, etc. etc. well, and I find them very flat, very accurate in general. Not the slightest bit "veiled", too.

 On the other hand......the appeal of Grados escapes me completely. They all sound far less accurate to me, much more "hi-fi", with exaggerated mid-bass, over-sparkly highs, a "hyped" sound--regardless of price point. Maybe they sound "good" on rock, but for classical--no stinkin' way, at least in my book!

 But you will find classical listeners who swear by Grado, who think Senn's are hideously veiled/slow/dead/muffled or whatever. Who's right?

 When it comes to electronics, the differences are much more subtle than between headphones--but still, it will all come down to what satisfies you most....then buy it, be happy, and enjoy the music without worrying if it's not exactly what others think is best._

 

I think it's a failure of people to clarify their statements well. There's no point in talking about one component without including what it's connected to, ie: in context. Beyond that, it depends on the person's ears.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Possibly an issue working with CoreAudio and USB. The only way they could get higher sampling rates to work over USB in Windows was to build their own USB drivers from scratch, instead of using the supplied drivers.

 Most audio interfaces designed for Macintoshes work via Firewire, so perhaps it's easier to implement. It could also be due to inexperience coding drivers for OS X._

 

I just read the article mentioned in another thread on changing the Audio/MIDI settings in Mac OS X to get a better sample rate and noticed I can set the analogue headphone output to 96kHz but the USB out to my Corda Move (with inbuilt DAC) to only 48, so I'd guess the first statement is correct. 

 Firewire is the preferred interface on Macs for audio as there tends to be less lag and less chance of drop-outs as I understand it, not requiring CPU time to process data as USB requires. On G3 and G4 Macs the firewire bus was connected directly to the northbridge for optimum throughput. With the G5 macs came AMD's Hypertransport for the southbridge (roughly speaking) which meant that Firewire, even hooked into the southbridge in G5's, was always going to be better for any device when high-throughput and low latency was required.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can set the analogue headphone output to 96kHz but the USB out to my Corda Move (with inbuilt DAC) to only 48..._

 

That's a limitation of the Corda Move itself; it only supports 16-bit / 32, 44.1, 48 kHz over USB. It could be an issue with CoreAudio as well, but it's hard to tell from this case.


----------



## touser

I just picked up an 0404 usb from the local fry's for $199 (i know its cheaper online but this way i can return it easily if i'm not happy) I'm driving a pair of sennheiser HD595's off of it and so far i'm pretty pleased. However after reading this and various other threads people are saying that the headphone amp isnt all that great, and sense that is my only use for the 0404 is there something else i should pick up instead for under $200? I should also probably be more specific, i'm not using it purely as an amp, its also my sound card.


----------



## sejarzo

My opinion is that even if you use it only as a USB DAC/soundcard that it's a good deal. Coupling it with something like a maxed-out PIMETA for starters--only $100-$125 on the used market here--firms up the bass and makes for an overall warmer/solid presentation. 

 Even so, assuming that one pays $160 or so for one via the web, and spends another $200 on a headamp, it competes well with any other sub-$400 solution between a PC and headphones. If you are a musician, or like me also wanted something with mic pres to do room measurements for speaker rigs, it's a no-brainer good deal.


----------



## jeremy6044

just ordered one. but i just got a message saying it's on back order. i guess too many people couldn't resist the $125 price.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *touser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just picked up an 0404 usb from the local fry's for $199 (i know its cheaper online but this way i can return it easily if i'm not happy) I'm driving a pair of sennheiser HD595's off of it and so far i'm pretty pleased._

 

HD595s are some of the easiest Sennheisers to drive... You'd probably want to upgrade if you had HD600s or HD650s. If you like the headphone amplification, don't worry too much about it. You can always add an amplifier later, and the 0404 USB will scale with it. If you ever decide to upgrade from the 0404 USB, you can switch to a dedicated DAC, since you'll have the headphone section covered.


----------



## kyotousa

what make you choose 0404USB rather than 1212M PCI?


----------



## Herr Kaufmann

Can someone from Europe recommend the cheapest e-store where i can order 0404? 

 I don't see any sense in ordering EMU from USA...


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kyotousa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_what make you choose 0404USB rather than 1212M PCI?_

 

In my case.....

 First, if one has the need to use the device with a notebook, the 0404 USB is the only choice. The built-in headamp is also a nice feature for transportability, not the ultimate but certainly usable.

 Second, the mic preamps allow me to use a measurement microphone and RoomEQ Wizard freeware to measure the response of my speaker rig in our home theater, allowing me to adjust speaker locations and subwoofer level. Theoretically, one can also do impulse response measurements and apply digital room correction via a deconvolver plug-in in Foobar, though I've yet to make that work well.

 Third, and this is only a potential benefit, is that removing the DAC and analog output stages from the interference prone location inside the PC might result in a cleaner final analog output signal.


----------



## kyotousa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Third, and this is only a potential benefit, is that removing the DAC and analog output stages from the interference prone location inside the PC might result in a cleaner final analog output signal._

 

Thats what I am thinking as well...

 can you emphasis more on the second benefit? Is there a link that teach you how to use that program?


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kyotousa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_can you emphasis more on the second benefit? Is there a link that teach you how to use that program?_

 

Right there, you described the problem......most of the digital room correction applications are difficult to use with not much instruction. I tried to use one "solution" that involved something like 40 steps and three different programs to reach the final point at which you can listen to the result.......which took me six hours.....and it was awful. Nothing in all the docs could tell me at what point things went wrong, but it obviously was not correct in the end.

 If you Google the phrase "digital room correction" you can find some links to other applications that attempt to automate the process but are still more or less based on a common engine that cranks out the required digital filter--but they all involve buying more software. One of them seems to be good--but there isn't yet full documentation available in English. I don't want to pay $100 or more for a program that doesn't include full documentation that allows me to be certain that (a) I'm doing it correctly and (b) can troubleshoot it if something doesn't work properly in the future.

 I actually bought a used TacT room correction preamp about six months ago, but it had some problems on arrival and eventually went back to the seller. So at this point, I'm waiting for a better PC-based solution to become available, because I can't afford a new TacT unit that costs ~$3000.


----------



## Bill Lummus

I've completed step 2- including using DRC to set up FIR filters and apply them through the Foobar convolver plug in.

 First- it is a PITA! I consider myself a technophile and very audio and tech savy. I followed the instructions in the DRC wiki site and eventually ended up with a filter that works great. 

 Second- it is well worth doing and will bring the single greatest improvement in sound that you can get (with speakers- that is) But be prepared for some frustration along the way.


----------



## kyotousa

I'd say I am computer savy...but have no idea about audio. lol

 flr standing speaker position is suppose to be the top priority tho..


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

I'm in Europe, so I managed to get one 0404 for the same price as you get two of them in the US, at $338


----------



## Cankin

^
 We now have 0404 index beside Big Mac Index. lol


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

I hope that the one I get is twice as good as the ones you get in the US.


----------



## reynoc

In Czech republic 0404 usb costs about 4000 czech crowns (CZK), what is about 230 USD


----------



## reynoc

Oh sorry, I posted the same thing twice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am newbie 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am not wery interested in PC sound, so I ask, if 0404 USB is able to get enough power to drive my 595?


----------



## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *reynoc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh sorry, I posted the same thing twice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am newbie 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am not wery interested in PC sound, so I ask, if 0404 USB is able to get enough power to drive my 595?_

 

It is more than capable to drive your HD595. However, the main function of the 0404 (for me at least) is not for amplification purpose, but rather the utilization of its DAC.


----------



## reynoc

And DAC works without computer, or I must use it only with PC?
 [size=xx-small]I am sorry for my bad english, it is not by born language
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size]


----------



## d-cee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *reynoc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And DAC works without computer, or I must use it only with PC?
 [size=xx-small]I am sorry for my bad english, it is not by born language
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size]_

 

yes you can use it as a DAC off the direct monitor option

 but you will be limited to 44.1kHz, as the only way to switch to higher sample rates is through the software on the PC

 so yes, it is possible, but will be limited...


----------



## reynoc

OK, thanks all!

 And I have another one small question. How huge will be upgrade from my integrated codec (realtec 97 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) to 0404 USB?


----------



## Downer

Excuse this dumb question but what is the difference between 0202 and 0404 ???


----------



## sejarzo

IMHO, the difference between an onboard CODEC and an external DAC should be massive.


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Downer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Excuse this dumb question but what is the difference between 0202 and 0404 ???_

 

The search function is your friend........there was a discussion about this several days ago on Head-Fi.......

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/emu...04-usb-287717/

 The E-MU website also explains it all.


----------



## Downer

Thanks for the link... I was too lazy to search at the moment. So my understanding is if I am gonna only use the dac function of the EMU 0202, it should provide a decent sound running thru a amp like Gilmore Lite ???


----------



## sejarzo

IMHO, at this point the cost difference between the 0202 USB and the 0404 USB is so small that the edge definitely goes to the 0404 USB.....if you prefer a more revealing/analytical character in your source.

 The 0202 USB uses a somewhat older Cirrus DAC, which *probably *means it has a warmer, more forgiving character--based on the typical "house sound" of the AKM versus Cirrus chips.

 If you can wait a week or so, I think a detailed comparison of the two units is forthcoming.


----------



## Downer

Can 0404 be powered from the USB only or it needs the AC ??? Thanks...


----------



## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Downer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can 0404 be powered from the USB only or it needs the AC ??? Thanks..._

 

Needs AC


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Downer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can 0404 be powered from the USB only or it needs the AC ??? Thanks..._

 

It needs AC, but the reviewer at Digit-Life speculates that powering it via USB could be possible:
  Quote:


 "Prima facie, the non-USB power feed seems surprising. But it becomes obvious when you consider that the card consumes current of up to 1 ampere, while a single USB port is limited to 500 mA (even less in real devices). Since noone likes that greyish-white smoke and distinctive smell, the vendor decided to play it safe and implement the main power feed. (Enthusiasts might want to accept responsibility and try feeding the card from 2-3 USB ports. Since the supply voltage is 5V, perhaps, the first engineering samples were bus-powered.)"


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

Maybe the first engineering samples ended in smoke and unhappiness?


----------



## dr.larkos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Personally, I don't connect the E-MU to my CDP......I find that I prefer the DAC section in the Marantz to the E-MU.

 And I'm confused about the question.......there are both coax and optical S/PDIF inputs and outputs on the 0404 USB, plus there have been quite a few posts on the forum about how to connect and configure the unit to run as a standalone DAC.

 Take a look at this page for details on the connections available:

E-MU Systems - 0404 USB 2.0 - USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface_

 

.

 Sejarzo could you kindly guide me to those posts about how to connect and configure unit to run as a stand alone DAC? I would like to connect my CDP to the emu0404USB.

 Thanks in advance........dr.larkos


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dr.larkos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.

 Sejarzo could you kindly guide me to those posts about how to connect and configure unit to run as a stand alone DAC? I would like to connect my CDP to the emu0404USB.

 Thanks in advance........dr.larkos_

 

I thought it would be easy to search, but there are just too many matches and I've had a long day.......I will respond with a new post on Thursday with updated directions, because it seems to me the latest firmware update just might make it act a bit differently.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dr.larkos* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.

 Sejarzo could you kindly guide me to those posts about how to connect and configure unit to run as a stand alone DAC? I would like to connect my CDP to the emu0404USB.

 Thanks in advance........dr.larkos_

 

Here's what I do...

 1. Connect a digital cable from the CDP to the optical or coaxial digital input on the 0404 USB.
 2. Turn on the CDP.
 3. Turn on the 0404 USB.
 4. Cycle through the S/PDIF selection by hitting the button twice (or once if you're using optical); this will force the 0404 USB to lock on to the player's clock [Sync Status switches to 'Ext.'].
 5. Hit the Direct Monitor button until Main is selected.
 6. Turn the Direct Monitor Level knob to the right a few times to ensure that no digital attenuation is occurring (this only needs to be done the first time).

 Done!


----------



## sejarzo

Thanks for jumping in on that one, infinitesymphony. My trusty CRT (been hanging on to it for dear life for color fidelity in photo editing) is in its final death throes as I type this....looking at ghosted characters all day yesterday had my eyes burned out. New NEC 22" LCD to arrive today, I hope!

 I could swear that last year, when I used mine "fresh from the package", even if I forced the sample rate to 96k by running an SRC plug-in in Foobar (or manually setting it there via the E-MU control panel) before disconnecting it from my PC, the 0404 USB would quickly sync to a 44.1k signal without any problem--or would just require a power cycle with a 44.1k signal present on either the coax or optical input.

 Over the past year, I have evaluated a couple of beta drivers that involved firmware updates. A couple of days ago, I realized that I never checked the digital outs on my SA8001 to see if they worked. I found that if I set the sample rate to anything other than 44.1k, then disconnected the USB connection, the 0404 USB wouldn't sync on either coax or optical. The only way to get it to sync was to go into the E-MU Control Panel and set the sample rate to 44.1k before disconnecting it.....as, it seems, E-MU always suggested would be the case.

 Maybe that's the reason for the change to the firmware that you mentioned elsewhere--that they presumed automatically reverting to 44.1k would prevent most issues with re-syncing to an external source? But I took it from your post that the change only applied to the 176.4k and 192k rates (as if many folks would have used those at this point, anyway?)

 Also.....there is a new driver package that includes support for all E-MU USB interfaces, including the new Tracker Pro. Once I get my desktop straightened out, I will download that and see if there is any firmware update in that one and evaluate its impact on external sync. Don't want to be in the middle of an install and have the monitor finally go completely dead!

 I don't want to put the new driver pack on my notebook quite yet.....I want to leave that one "as is" until after the Chicago meet on Saturday!


----------



## dr.larkos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's what I do...

 1. Connect a digital cable from the CDP to the optical or coaxial digital input on the 0404 USB.
 2. Turn on the CDP.
 3. Turn on the 0404 USB.
 4. Cycle through the S/PDIF selection by hitting the button twice (or once if you're using optical); this will force the 0404 USB to lock on to the player's clock [Sync Status switches to 'Ext.'].
 5. Hit the Direct Monitor button until Main is selected.
 6. Turn the Direct Monitor Level knob to the right a few times to ensure that no digital attenuation is occurring (this only needs to be done the first time).

 Done!_

 

Thank you infinitesymphony and Sejarzo for your responses. Process seems very straight forward. Will look forward to hear about sejarzo's trials of new firmware.

 Best.................. dr.larkos


----------



## sejarzo

Downloaded and installed the new driver package.

 Well, it has sort of new firmware, I guess......I had previously loaded the newest beta drivers as of mid-January, which apparently updated my firmware to the new version in the official public release drivers. The installer first updates the driver files, then starts the firmware update by checking the currently loaded version. It reported that there newer version available.....if you get that message, you actually have to manually click the "Cancel" button to exit and reboot. If you click the "Continue" button, it simply loops you back and tells you, once again, that there's no newer version available.

 So far, so good. I think the main reason for the new pack might be support for the new Tracker Pro......like most of their updates, the new package includes all docs for the 0202/0404/Tracker Pro USB series in all the languages.

 I'd highly suggest doing a custom install and unchecking the options to install the docs for the units you don't own. One often wonders if choosing the custom install might result in problems if one makes bad selections--but that's not the case here, it's straightforward.

 So far, it appears that the external sync procedure above is perfect.


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

That the 0404 needs custom drivers makes me worried that it will quickly become obsolete, if they stop developing the drivers.

 Especially Mac OS is infamous for making software obsolete. Maybe I will be unable to use it within two or three years?


----------



## sejarzo

Any USB recording interface capable of greater than 16/44.1 playback uses its own drivers for Windows because the Win USB Audio Device is in almost all cases limited to that rate (and the devices that can do that "driverless" are expensive and use custom firmware......and who knows if that firmware might not be compatible with future OS's?)

 I am clueless when it comes to the realm of the Mac....but I think it has better built-in capabilities for hi-rez audio, maybe, and better support for FireWire devices?

 If I could operate Mac-only, then that new Apogee Duet would likely be my choice......I've read nothing but great things about it so far.


----------



## rms

I had a few minutes of downtime today so I read through this thread and thought I would add my experiences. I have the 0404 and am using it as a digital interface to my external DAC, so this will be a mini review of the 0404 and my DAC. My signal chain is PC playing flac files from the HD ripped using EAC. I play these with Foobar through asio to the 0404 then s/pdif out to an Audio by Van Alstine Omegastar DAC to a B&K Pro10MC pre in direct bypass mode, to a Hafler DH500 to SP Tech Continuum speakers. I bought the 0404 to get bit perfect playback capability via asio to the external DAC and also for its recording capabilities. I have compared the 0404 DAC to the AVA DAC as directly and level matched as possible (using my ears - I don't have a spl meter). I use the Sheffield Drum and Test Track disc as my primary reference recording. I know the recording very well and have a high end drum set in my studio for verification / cross reference. I will first say the 0404 sounds very good and if I didn't have the AVA DAC I would be quite happy. However the difference is not subtle. The AVA DAC exhibits superior detail retrieval throughout the sound spectrum. 3D imaging is fantastic - when I close my eyes and listen the drummer is directly in front of me with the kit accurately represented spatially both vertically and horizontally. And the timbre, tone, and nuances so accurate as to be indistinguishable from the actual drum kit. All of my other good quality recordings are equally well rendered. I was actually hoping the 0404 would sound close to as good as the AVA DAC since I had the AVA on a 30 day trial - I would have returned it (it costs $899 new direct from Frank Van Alstine) however the AVA is a keeper, but so is the 0404. I am in no way trying to knock the 0404, for $150 or so it is an incredible value, offers a lot of flexibility, and really sounds quite good. It just lacks the depth, detail retrieval, 3d imaging, air, and reality of the AVA.
 (many thanks to sejarzo for assisting with the 0404 and Foobar setup)


----------



## jinp6301

Got mine today, and its a nice step up from the entech 203.2 and my old lite dac.


----------



## mmuse

Has anyone noticed that both EMU 0404 and Stello DA100 used the same AKM4395 D/A converter chip? That just moved the value proposition of EMU 0404 up a big notch.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mmuse* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone noticed that both EMU 0404 and Stello DA100 used the same AKM4395 D/A converter chip? That just moved the value proposition of EMU 0404 up a big notch._

 

The first revision of the 0404 PCI used the AKM4395, but the current 0404 PCI and 0404 USB use the AKM AK4396, which is a significant improvement according to AKM.


----------



## musicmind

The 0404 USB uses the AKM 4396 chip.
E-MU 0404 USB - A Top-Class External Audio Interface


----------



## mmuse

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The first revision of the 0404 PCI used the AKM4395, but the current 0404 PCI and 0404 USB use the AKM AK4396, which is a significant improvement according to AKM._

 

Does that make 4040 better than DA100?


----------



## musicmind

IIRC, the 4395 chip is actually a higher spec chip than the 4396 for its jitter tolerance. Its been a while since I glanced at the spec sheet.

 Of course, there is a lot more to the sound of any device than just one component, but AFAIK, the Stello has the slightly better chip, and I would imagine it is more "musical" sounding than the 0404USB which is in essence a recording interface. Still a great piece of equipment for the price.
 Havent seen any comparative reviews of the two yet.


----------



## mmuse

musicmind - thanks for the clarification. I just score a DA100 on Audiogon, so this info took a big load of my back


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would imagine it is more "musical" sounding than the 0404USB which is in essence a recording interface._

 

Why would it sound more musical due to the essence?


----------



## kyotousa

probably because recording card has clean cold sound instead of warm sound. I think I like it better than Revo 7.1 but not that much of improvement. 

 probably because I am using computer speaker....gonna hook up to actual speaker next week and see what happens.


----------



## musicmind

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DefectiveAudioComponent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why would it sound more musical due to the essence?_

 

due to the essence? perhaps a stello smells better than an emu? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 Yes, as kyotousa said, I would guess that a DAC made specifically for music listening, would have a warmer, less edgy sound, compared to a pro-audio card. But as I stated, its just my "educated guess" after reading about the 0404USB on head-fi.
 Although, the amp section of the audiocard could be quite warm too, as is the case with the Presonus CentralStation and make it quite a pleasure to listen to. 

 How have your experiences with the 0404USB been? I've read that it sounds very nice with Sennheisers.

 I would get one except for the various issues folks have with pops and clicks , high CPU utilization and changing foobar settings etc, because at 140$ in the US, its quite a steal for good sound on the cheap.


----------



## d-cee

DAC chip may be the same

 but the analogue stage, the power supply and implementation are different

 2 DACs can have the same DAC chip and sound completely different. I mean DAC chips only cost a few bucks...


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mmuse* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does that make 4040 better than DA100?_

 

Nah, it goes like this
 DA100 > Pico >> EMU 0404

 Pico with 0404
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/upd...review-295801/

 DA100 with Pico
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/3801983-post39.html


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *musicmind* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How have your experiences with the 0404USB been? I've read that it sounds very nice with Sennheisers.

 I would get one except for the various issues folks have with pops and clicks , high CPU utilization and changing foobar settings etc, because at 140$ in the US, its quite a steal for good sound on the cheap._

 

It's twice as expensive here, but it still costs the same as a rather cheap CD player, and it sounds terrific. I don't know if it is the best, but to me the sound is not at all cold an analytical through my XCAN and my 580s. I find it rather precise, for instance the bass is hard and snappy rather than soft and boomy. I can amost feel the drummer hitting the drum next to my ear. But how good is it... well, when I get a long enough cable I will cable I will compare it to my Arcam.

 I have no pops, clicks, or CPU issues on the mac book pro I use at the moment. It just works.


----------



## reynoc

Hi guys,
 I have just bought 0404 USB and I have one question. Is there any way to play music from portable CD player trough 0404? It means if 0404 is possible to use as headphone amp without computer?


----------



## sejarzo

There is no reason to use the 0404 USB as strictly a headphone amp. The internal headamp is included as a tool for musician-recordists. It's not designed to be a great headamp by any means, though it is fine for many people.

 It requires AC power anyway, so for a portable CD player, one would be better off with a truly portable small headamp.


----------



## vulc4n

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *reynoc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys,
 I have just bought 0404 USB and I have one question. Is there any way to play music from portable CD player trough 0404? It means if 0404 is possible to use as headphone amp without computer?_

 

Just run a line out from the cd player to the line in on the 0404


----------



## T9R

How does the 0404 handle IEMs and low impedance headphones?


----------



## sonci

I usually listen to Satellite radios, with a samsung receiver which has a digital output.Can i connet EMU 0404usb to that one?


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sonci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I usually listen to Satellite radios, with a samsung receiver which has a digital output.Can i connet EMU 0404usb to that one?_

 

Yes, almost anything with a digital output will work with the 0404 USB.


----------



## Const4nt1n3

hello,

 i have a quick question. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 it is possible to connect computer microphone to emu 0404 usb? i am talking about this mic: hama.de | 00042463 Hama*Tischmikrofon "CS 463".


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Const4nt1n3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hello,

 i have a quick question. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it is possible to connect computer microphone to emu 0404 usb? i am talking about this mic: hama.de | 00042463 Hama Tischmikrofon "CS 463". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, with a 1/8" to 1/4" mono adapter. However, I'm not sure if you'll be able to use it for gaming; it may only work in programs that have input signal routing.


----------



## Const4nt1n3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, with a 1/8" to 1/4" mono adapter. However, I'm not sure if you'll be able to use it for gaming; it may only work in programs that have input signal routing._

 

does it has to be mono? because i have stereo one, but it seems that the latter isn't working. also i tried 1/8" to 1/4" to XLR Male adapter, but no resuts here also (i used 1/8" to 1/4" stereo adapter).


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Const4nt1n3* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does it has to be mono? because i have stereo one, but it seems that the latter isn't working. also i tried 1/8" to 1/4" to XLR Male adapter, but no resuts here also (i used 1/8" to 1/4" stereo adapter)._

 

Yes, it must be mono because each of the input plugs is a mono jack (since a single microphone only uses one channel).


----------



## reynoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vulc4n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just run a line out from the cd player to the line in on the 0404_

 

Thanx, and I suppose I will have to use special reduction, because these imputs are mono, something like that?


----------



## Const4nt1n3

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, it must be mono because each of the input plugs is a mono jack (since a single microphone only uses one channel)._

 

hmm, okay. i'll try to get mono jack. later i am going to write if i was successful. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thanks for help!


----------



## eruditass

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vulc4n* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just run a line out from the cd player to the line in on the 0404_

 

no, that will just be using the 0404 amp which isnt that great. you need a digital out to it to use the dac


----------



## tfarney

I just read through this thread, as I'm researching DACs for use in my computer-as-source system. In the meantime, I'm just using a cheap iMic USB dongle to get a line out of my Mac iBook G4. The innards of a Mac are very quiet compared to most PCs. In fact, there is no audible noise when volume is maxed. And actually, just the simple line out to get around the Mac's weak headphone amp and using whatever DAC chip is on the Mac's sound card (Texas Instruments TAS3004?), sounds very good through a high-power amp into Sennheiser HD580s or through a Headroom Airhead into Etymotic E6s... 

 Starting from that perspective, threads like this (and there seem to be more of them all the time), in which people are comparing upgraded electronic components with their existing ones and not hearing much, if any, improvement, are a bit of an alarm going off.

 Here's what I've gotten from this thread: Two DACs, both designed to be very neutral, for home/studio recording purposes. The cheaper on actually has more functionality. They are as much as $1150 apart in street prices. And a bunch of audio guys have spent 16 pages and a couple of months trying to decide if they can really hear the difference between them. One gentleman even got both DACs in his house to compare and once he level-matched within 1 db, he could perceive no sonic difference in that $1150 spread.

 This is not to say that a much better built-in headphone amp, balanced line outs and a beautiful metal box are worth nothing. But they're worth nothing to me. My objective would be met by a plastic box with a USB or Firewire port going in, RCAs coming out and neutral digital to analog conversion in the middle. 

 Thanks for the red flag. I'm going to keep reading for awhile. Then I think I'm going to order a few DACs at a few price levels and compare before I buy. And I will definitely include the clean line-out from my Mac's humble soundcard in the comparison. Who knows? I may end up sending all of the DACs back. But I'm gonna start here:

SUPER Pro DAC 707 USB

 $110, with the same components and specs as Headroom's $299 Mirco DAC. If it doesn't sound better than my sound card, I'll move on to the 0404.

 Tim


----------



## Benny99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tfarney* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just read through this thread, as I'm researching DACs for use in my computer-as-source system. In the meantime, I'm just using a cheap iMic USB dongle to get a line out of my Mac iBook G4. The innards of a Mac are very quiet compared to most PCs. In fact, there is no audible noise when volume is maxed. And actually, just the simple line out to get around the Mac's weak headphone amp and using whatever DAC chip is on the Mac's sound card (Texas Instruments TAS3004?), sounds very good through a high-power amp into Sennheiser HD580s or through a Headroom Airhead into Etymotic E6s... 

 Starting from that perspective, threads like this (and there seem to be more of them all the time), in which people are comparing upgraded electronic components with their existing ones and not hearing much, if any, improvement, are a bit of an alarm going off.

 Here's what I've gotten from this thread: Two DACs, both designed to be very neutral, for home/studio recording purposes. The cheaper on actually has more functionality. They are as much as $1150 apart in street prices. And a bunch of audio guys have spent 16 pages and a couple of months trying to decide if they can really hear the difference between them. One gentleman even got both DACs in his house to compare and once he level-matched within 1 db, he could perceive no sonic difference in that $1150 spread.

 This is not to say that a much better built-in headphone amp, balanced line outs and a beautiful metal box are worth nothing. But they're worth nothing to me. My objective would be met by a plastic box with a USB or Firewire port going in, RCAs coming out and neutral digital to analog conversion in the middle. 

 Thanks for the red flag. I'm going to keep reading for awhile. Then I think I'm going to order a few DACs at a few price levels and compare before I buy. And I will definitely include the clean line-out from my Mac's humble soundcard in the comparison. Who knows? I may end up sending all of the DACs back. But I'm gonna start here:

SUPER Pro DAC 707 USB

 $110, with the same components and specs as Headroom's $299 Mirco DAC. If it doesn't sound better than my sound card, I'll move on to the 0404.

 Tim_

 


 I wouldn't even bother with the DAC 707 USB. I just got a refund on it due to the fact thats its a pretty terrible DAC. It gives off a very harsh sound and lacks bass.

 Btw what sound card do you have ?


----------



## tfarney

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Benny99* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't even bother with the DAC 707 USB. I just got a refund on it due to the fact thats its a pretty terrible DAC. It gives off a very harsh sound and lacks bass.

 Btw what sound card do you have ?_

 

Whatever it is that comes in an iBook G4. Under "about this Mac/more info/Audio (built-in), it says:

 CODEC:Texas Instruments TAS3004

 I confess I don't know part numbers or what that means. I also don't know if it will sound as good as quality external DACs, but it sounds good and is quite quiet, so it's worth a listen.

 Did you give the 707 much time? Yesterday another member here reported the same harshness, but said it smoothed out after a 40-hour burn-in and now just lacked a bit of warmth when compared to his Headroom micro dac. He preferred the Headroom but conceded that the 707 was probably more neutral.

 Tim


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tfarney* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's what I've gotten from this thread: Two DACs, both designed to be very neutral, for home/studio recording purposes. The cheaper on actually has more functionality. They are as much as $1150 apart in street prices. And a bunch of audio guys have spent 16 pages and a couple of months trying to decide if they can really hear the difference between them. One gentleman even got both DACs in his house to compare and once he level-matched within 1 db, he could perceive no sonic difference in that $1150 spread._

 

That was one person's experience. I'd wager I could A/B the 0404 USB against all of my other equipment. Not everyone has the same ears, after all, especially accounting for age, noise-induced hearing loss, and difference in physical structure of the ears.

 Plus, you're only examining the specifications of the most important components. Yes, the Super Pro 707 and the Headroom Micro have the same DAC, but the surrounding circuit layouts and parts are likely very different. Though they may share some similarities in sound signature due to the DAC chip, they might sound like extreme variations of each other because of the difference in implementation.

 Basically, there's a reason for the price differences.


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Basically, there's a reason for the price differences._

 

But it might not be worth it compared to changing components that affect the sound more.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DefectiveAudioComponent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But it might not be worth it compared to changing components that affect the sound more._

 

Yes, that's a valid point too... The other components can affect the ability to hear differences.


----------



## tfarney

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That was one person's experience. I'd wager I could A/B the 0404 USB against all of my other equipment. Not everyone has the same ears, after all, especially accounting for age, noise-induced hearing loss, and difference in physical structure of the ears.

 Plus, you're only examining the specifications of the most important components. Yes, the Super Pro 707 and the Headroom Micro have the same DAC, but the surrounding circuit layouts and parts are likely very different. Though they may share some similarities in sound signature due to the DAC chip, they might sound like extreme variations of each other because of the difference in implementation.

 Basically, there's a reason for the price differences._

 

And it could be a great reason. Or it could be reasons that add no value for a lot of people (connections, crossfeed, case, brand equity). All I know is the fellow who had both preferred the HR, but not by much. Look, I'm not saying that the cheapest component is always the way to go or that there are never any audible benefits to be gained by upgrading. That would be foolish. But it is just as foolish to assume that the benefits are always commensurate with the cost. "You get what you pay for" is a nice cliche, but it doesn't always work that way, especially where rapidly advancing technologies and world markets are involved. It only takes a bit of objectivity to know that electronic components like DACS, cable, sometimes even amps, often deliver very little audible change for the dollar. The big sonic upgrades are in headroom and better speakers/cans. It has always been so. It is even more so in the digital age.

 Tim


----------



## ds-

Quick question.

 I'm planning on getting a emu 0404 to use with my laptop to some speakers.

 Setup would be Laptop > Emu 0404 > Receiver > Speakers.

 The question is now should I connect the Emu 0404 to the Receiver?

 1. Using RCA cables from Emu 0404 to the Receiver.
 2. Using Digital/Optical out from Emu 0404 to the Receiver.

 I'm assuming I should be using the RCA cable so the Emu 0404 does the converting instead of my receiver since the Emu 0404 is supposed to be the DAC? Unless my receiver is a better DAC?

 Receiver is a Harmon Kardon AVR 135 btw.


----------



## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ds-* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quick question.

 I'm planning on getting a emu 0404 to use with my laptop to some speakers.

 Setup would be Laptop > Emu 0404 > Receiver > Speakers.

 The question is now should I connect the Emu 0404 to the Receiver?

 1. Using RCA cables from Emu 0404 to the Receiver.
 2. Using Digital/Optical out from Emu 0404 to the Receiver.

 I'm assuming I should be using the RCA cable so the Emu 0404 does the converting instead of my receiver since the Emu 0404 is supposed to be the DAC? Unless my receiver is a better DAC?

 Receiver is a Harmon Kardon AVR 135 btw._

 

I do #1. The 0404 USB has 2 outputs, a mini TRS jack and 2 TS jacks. You need either a mini to RCA cable or 2 TS to RCA adapters, which is what I have.

 IMO, it's a waste of money to buy the 0404 USB if all you're using it for is USB to coax/optical conversion.


----------



## ds-

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scompton* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do #1. The 0404 USB has 2 outputs, a mini TRS jack and 2 TS jacks. You need either a mini to RCA cable or 2 TS to RCA adapters, which is what I have.

 IMO, it's a waste of money to buy the 0404 USB if all you're using it for is USB to coax/optical conversion._

 

That's what I thought. 
 I am just looking for a device for USB to Coaxial/Optical conversion.

 Guess I can try using my Fubar II as the DAC unless the Emu 0404 is much better at it.


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tfarney* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And it could be a great reason. Or it could be reasons that add no value for a lot of people (connections, crossfeed, case, brand equity). All I know is the fellow who had both preferred the HR, but not by much. Look, I'm not saying that the cheapest component is always the way to go or that there are never any audible benefits to be gained by upgrading. That would be foolish. But it is just as foolish to assume that the benefits are always commensurate with the cost. "You get what you pay for" is a nice cliche, but it doesn't always work that way, especially where rapidly advancing technologies and world markets are involved. It only takes a bit of objectivity to know that electronic components like DACS, cable, sometimes even amps, often deliver very little audible change for the dollar. The big sonic upgrades are in headroom and better speakers/cans. It has always been so. It is even more so in the digital age.

 Tim_

 

Great post. I think it sums it all up. This should be stickied somewhere.


----------



## maarek99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tfarney* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But it is just as foolish to assume that the benefits are always commensurate with the cost._

 

I agree. After doing some "upgrading" I've actually come back to my original components and cheaper headphone amp because...well, they just sound better to my ears.


----------



## tfarney

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DefectiveAudioComponent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great post. I think it sums it all up. This should be stickied somewhere._

 

Thanks. What is the "Black silk veil version" of the HD580?

 Tim


----------



## facelvega

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Benny99* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't even bother with the DAC 707 USB. I just got a refund on it due to the fact thats its a pretty terrible DAC. It gives off a very harsh sound and lacks bass._

 

pish. Here are a few threads from the AV123 forum with about thirty pages of posts disagreeing with that assessment and showing a clearer picture of its strengths and weaknesses:

1
2
3
4

 What we still lack, and what would be extremely useful for the head-fi crowd, is a thorough comparison test of the 707 USB (modded or not) up against the 0404 USB.


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tfarney* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. What is the "Black silk veil version" of the HD580?

 Tim_

 

It's simply the old HD580 version that has a black silk screen, and which can have the sennheiser veil unless properly burned in, used, and amped. Thus the black silk veil. (As compared to the new white metal screened drivers that people find to be without the veil).


----------



## maarek99

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DefectiveAudioComponent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's simply the old HD580 version that has a black silk screen, and which can have the sennheiser veil unless properly burned in, used, and amped. Thus the black silk veil. (As compared to the new white metal screened drivers that people find to be without the veil)._

 

? My ooooold hd580 sounds almost exactly the same as my new hd600 so I don't think that the silk has any meaning to sound whatsoever.


----------



## gunz_drawn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *penguindude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The headphone amp section of the EMU0404 is overrated. While it can sufficiently drive high-impedance headphones, it's definitely no match for most sub-$200 dedicated headphone amps out there. It's too muddy, lacks impact and details. The Main Out of the 0404, however, is much better._

 


 x2

 My SR60 is kind of sounds lifeless compared to straight out of something as modest as a Zen Micro. Even the mids become thinner and dont have that lower mid warmth. Someone like Michael Buble sound well... castrated in emu headphone out.

 Havent tested the lineout though


----------



## [L]es

running an emu 0404 usb thru anti cable ic's and samson rubicon r5a.. while it lacks the imaging and dynamics of my old dac, the evs millenium, it's got better tone and is quite transparent and is quite detailed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## digger945

Has anyone tried changing out the HP Op-amp for something with a little more juice? Perhaps upgrading the Power Supply to give a little smoother DC? I don't find alot wrong with my 0404 and HD650. It sounds pretty good 0404 to Predator in, to HD650, also. I think it may be a better source than dedicated amp.
 Scott


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digger945* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone tried changing out the HP Op-amp for something with a little more juice? Perhaps upgrading the Power Supply to give a little smoother DC?_

 

Yep.


----------



## digger945

Just to clarify, I think the 0404 may make a better source to feed an amp, than it would be as a stand alone amp itself, although many are modding them with opamp's of different flavors.


----------



## mlarn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *facelvega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_pish. Here are a few threads from the AV123 forum with about thirty pages of posts disagreeing with that assessment and showing a clearer picture of its strengths and weaknesses:

1
2
3
4

 What we still lack, and what would be extremely useful for the head-fi crowd, is a thorough comparison test of the 707 USB (modded or not) up against the 0404 USB._

 

X2. I would love to hear a comparison of these 2 sources. The 707 USB gets good reviews from those who have heard it (although few and far between it seems like) and has great specs. Its also ~ 1/2 the price and could be a great bargain for those on a budget. The 0404 USB is more expensive, but seems to get almost universally good reviews. Only negatives Ive seen here is a few have complained it is a bit too analytical/detailed in their systems, but that is always a matter of personal taste so not a judgement against the dac itself (not to mention completely dependent upon the rest of the system as well).


----------



## digger945

So are you guys gonna compare them or what? I'll be the first to volunteer my 0404, and I'll pay the shipping to the first destination. Your never gonna know till you listen anyways.
 Scott


----------



## digger945

FIY I think the stock 0404 is pretty "sterile" however it does respond well to EQing, and the HD650 need that anyways, thats playing Flac and Alac in Foobar with ASIO4All.


----------



## baop858

If I'm going to be using headphones that don't require an amp, like the grado sr60, can I just connect it to the main output and bypass the headphone amp?


----------



## Project22a

I'd plug them into the amped headphone output. Just because a headphone doesn't *require* an amp doesn't mean it won't benefit from one.


----------



## kilgoretrout

I'm looking to buy my first external DAC, and I will be replacing my laptop's built-in soundcard. I am looking for a description of how audible this upgrade will be.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kilgoretrout* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm looking to buy my first external DAC, and I will be replacing my laptop's built-in soundcard. I am looking for a description of how audible this upgrade will be._

 

Only you can make that determination... But from my experience, the difference will be very audible.


----------



## kilgoretrout

Thanks, I'm skeptical to how beneficial a DAC upgrade is because nobody is willing to ABX them. If I cannot hear a difference, at least I'll have some nifty recording features.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kilgoretrout* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, I'm skeptical to how beneficial a DAC upgrade is because nobody is willing to ABX them. If I cannot hear a difference, at least I'll have some nifty recording features._

 

Most people don't have setups where they can perform a scientifically-accurate double-blind test of hardware. Plus, we can't talk about that here. What we can talk about is A/Bing. In my opinion, the 0404 USB has its own distinct sound signature, just like the other sources I've heard. It may or may not sound good to you in your system, but there is no question in my mind that it should sound more revealing and detailed than your onboard audio.


----------



## scompton

You can talk about double blind tests, just not dbt of cables. 

 From the sticky in the cable forum
  Quote:


 We do not engage in the discussion of double-blind testing (DBT) of cables on this site.


 We do this not because DBT is or is not an legitimate means for decision-making. Rather, in our experience we find that these discussions repeatedly break down rather quickly into nasty circular arguments by competing camps of true believers. We've come to the conclusion that there's no particularly worthwhile end to be served by this line of discussion, and as such we're asking that the membership not engage in it. 
 

Outside of cables, I've not really seen many threads get out of hand when discussing DBT of amps say.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scompton* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can talk about double blind tests, just not dbt of cables._

 

Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way... But I figure it's still not a good idea to talk about DBT in the context of hardware because there will always be the question of, "Was the test setup correctly?" Level matching, configuring the double-blind setup, state of mind, listening fatigue, listening experience, etc.


----------



## kilgoretrout

This is no reason not to talk about double blind testing. Censoring useful information only hurts the community. Do you realize that those same exact questions are present when comparing any equipment? A lot of people have quite powerful imaginations, and DBT will help others decide for themselves what to believe.


----------



## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way... But I figure it's still not a good idea to talk about DBT in the context of hardware because there will always be the question of, "Was the test setup correctly?" Level matching, configuring the double-blind setup, state of mind, listening fatigue, listening experience, etc._

 

I always caveat any comparisons with the fact that I'm only volume matching by ear, which I doubt is very accurate. Doing a DBT of hardware like a DAC, requires a group of people. Someone needs to be behind the curtain flipping the switch, so you need at least 2 people. Makes it a bit of a pain. It would be interesting though. I have a cheap SilverstoneTek EB01 at work and the 0404 USB at home. The EB01 costs around $75. It'd be interesting to compare the DAC functionality. Even if equal though, I still want the 0404 USB for the input functions.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kilgoretrout* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is no reason not to talk about double blind testing. Censoring useful information only hurts the community. Do you realize that those same exact questions are present when comparing any equipment? A lot of people have quite powerful imaginations, and DBT will help others decide for themselves what to believe._

 

Read a few threads in the cables forum and you'll understand why they did it. Even without discussing DBT it can get pretty heated between true believers and skeptics. They're actually starting a Skeptics forum just for discussing things like DBT. I have seen excellent links to DBT round robin shoot outs of amps and speakers. In an amps shoot out, the $150 Trends T amp won over amps that cost thousands of dollars. In another, a $200 amp won.


----------



## kilgoretrout

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scompton* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I always caveat any comparisons with the fact that I'm only volume matching by ear, which I doubt is very accurate. Doing a DBT of hardware like a DAC, requires a group of people. Someone needs to be behind the curtain flipping the switch, so you need at least 2 people. Makes it a bit of a pain. It would be interesting though. I have a cheap SilverstoneTek EB01 at work and the 0404 USB at home. The EB01 costs around $75. It'd be interesting to compare the DAC functionality. Even if equal though, I still want the 0404 USB for the input functions._

 

It's a little bit of a pain, but the advancement of knowledge and science requires effort. I don't think it is beyond the capacity of all of the members in this forum to be able to do this.


  Quote:


 Read a few threads in the cables forum and you'll understand why they did it. Even without discussing DBT it can get pretty heated between true believers and skeptics. They're actually starting a Skeptics forum just for discussing things like DBT. 
 

I really see nothing wrong with this. Heated debates should encourage people to meticulously design experiments that prove a point. I'll definitely be a regular of the skeptics forum when it's available.

  Quote:


 I have seen excellent links to DBT round robin shoot outs of amps and speakers. In an amps shoot out, the $150 Trends T amp won over amps that cost thousands of dollars. In another, a $200 amp won 
 

I am not familiar with the tests you are talking about, but it sounds like you're taking the wrong approach about interpreting the results. You're clearly biased in that you WANT the amps that cost thousands of dollars to win. Maybe it really is true that for $200 you can get the best amp possible and that spending any more is pointless. Just because the tests come to conclusion that you don't like doesn't mean that the test is wrong, just be prepared to accept a conclusion that you don't expect.

 Actually, I don't understand why anyone would spend thousands of dollars on amps. Amplifying a signal linearly across all audible frequencies with inaudible distortion and without adding any sort of coloration to the sound is not difficult or expensive to implement.


----------



## kilgoretrout

The idea that an amp that costs $2000 is much better than one that costs $200 is something you BELIEVE, not something you KNOW.

 I'm interested in what's truly provable. Are you?


----------



## infinitesymphony

I don't think that scompton meant to imply that a higher-cost amp should necessarily beat a lower-cost one in a listening test. He said that he'd read what he would consider to be excellent DBTs where a lower-cost amplifier won. I think it was just an additional comment at the end of that paragraph, not meant to imply anything.

 Still, I've read through that test, and my conclusion was that the results were only valid for the group of people being tested. A different group of ears may have arrived at a different result. This is why many people question the usefulness of DBTs, as they can only prove what sounds subjectively better to a test group or individual. In my opinion, the usefulness of DBTs is discovering whether or not people can hear a difference at all between equipment, not necessarily determining that a piece of equipment inherently sounds better. And even in that case (for example, comparing MP3 and lossless formats), the result is only applicable to the test group or individual.


----------



## kilgoretrout

Then others should repeat the same test with different listeners and more listeners. This topic needs more information, and performing more such tests is the best way to get this information.

 I agree that proving what subjectively sounds better to a test group is not useful, however, this is because you are trying to answer the wrong question.

 The question that the tests should try to answer should be "Is there any discernible difference between these amps, DACs, cables, or whatever it is that is being tested?" If the results prove that there is some sort of audible difference, then leave that to the user's audio preference to decide which is better. If there is no audible difference, then the user can freely pick between devices focusing on appearance, design, or cost without worrying about the audio aspect of the device.


----------



## scompton

You misinterpreted my views. If anything, I'm biased the other way. I've yet to hear expensive equipment that makes me what to get rid of my cheap stuff.

 I'm thrilled when cheap equipment wins DBT. I use a T amp at work to drive vintage stats that I bought for $1.50. My home headphone amp is a NAD 3155 that I bought for $15. I have nothing but Radio Shack cables unless Radio Shack doesn't sell that type of cable.

 I listen to digital music at 128bps because I can't tell the difference in ABX tests between that and lossless. I keep a lossless archive only in case I need my music in a format other than AAC.

 I'm firmly in the skeptic camp as far as cables are concerned. I'm a firm believer in DBT for any equipment. The only equipment I don't see how to DBT is headphones. As I stated, I'd love to DBT my 2 DACs, although because one is at home and the other at work, there's no reason to get rid of either. The problem is finding someone else to to the DBT with me. I don't know how you would do it alone. Someone needs to switch wires. I'd also like to include more inexpensive DACs, and maybe some expensive ones.


 BTW, here's a link to the amp shoot out. I forgot that it was all digital amps, which some people scoff at. SHOOTOUT2007


----------



## MerlinWerks

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scompton* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is finding someone else to to the DBT with me. I don't know how you would do it alone. Someone needs to switch wires. I'd also like to include more inexpensive DACs, and maybe some expensive ones._

 

A simple device like this is very useful in comparing equipment. Although, pretty much impossible to do DBT when you're solo, a few rapid clicks at the beginning and you don't really know which device is being switched anymore, unless you look at the LED. I built a slightly modified version of this which uses double pole relays so I could switch the grounds as well as the signals, which is a must when testing t-amps since you can't connect the grounds between channels. I also added RCA jacks in parallel with the banana jacks so I could test line level gear as well. Much better than manually switching cables, because IMHO if it takes more than a few ms to make the switch, that's long enough for your mind to start playing tricks on you, well my mind anyway


----------



## kilgoretrout

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scompton* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You misinterpreted my views. If anything, I'm biased the other way. I've yet to hear expensive equipment that makes me what to get rid of my cheap stuff.

 I'm thrilled when cheap equipment wins DBT. I use a T amp at work to drive vintage stats that I bought for $1.50. My home headphone amp is a NAD 3155 that I bought for $15. I have nothing but Radio Shack cables unless Radio Shack doesn't sell that type of cable.

 I listen to digital music at 128bps because I can't tell the difference in ABX tests between that and lossless. I keep a lossless archive only in case I need my music in a format other than AAC.

 I'm firmly in the skeptic camp as far as cables are concerned. I'm a firm believer in DBT for any equipment. The only equipment I don't see how to DBT is headphones. As I stated, I'd love to DBT my 2 DACs, although because one is at home and the other at work, there's no reason to get rid of either. The problem is finding someone else to to the DBT with me. I don't know how you would do it alone. Someone needs to switch wires. I'd also like to include more inexpensive DACs, and maybe some expensive ones.


 BTW, here's a link to the amp shoot out. I forgot that it was all digital amps, which some people scoff at. SHOOTOUT2007_

 

Yes, DBT is pretty much impossible with headphones, but headphones have measurable differences which can be interpreted subjectively I think.

 Glad to have you onboard the skeptic camp. Where are the rest of us?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MerlinWerks* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A simple device like this is very useful in comparing equipment. Although, pretty much impossible to do DBT when you're solo, a few rapid clicks at the beginning and you don't really know which device is being switched anymore, unless you look at the LED. I built a slightly modified version of this which uses double pole relays so I could switch the grounds as well as the signals, which is a must when testing t-amps since you can't connect the grounds between channels. I also added RCA jacks in parallel with the banana jacks so I could test line level gear as well. Much better than manually switching cables, because IMHO if it takes more than a few ms to make the switch, that's long enough for your mind to start playing tricks on you, well my mind anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Maybe you could find a family member or a friend that would be willing to help you out here. I suppose an alternative might be a piece of software that controls the a switch and behaves like foobar's ABX software.


----------



## scompton

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MerlinWerks* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A simple device like this is very useful in comparing equipment. Although, pretty much impossible to do DBT when you're solo, a few rapid clicks at the beginning and you don't really know which device is being switched anymore, unless you look at the LED. I built a slightly modified version of this which uses double pole relays so I could switch the grounds as well as the signals, which is a must when testing t-amps since you can't connect the grounds between channels. I also added RCA jacks in parallel with the banana jacks so I could test line level gear as well. Much better than manually switching cables, because IMHO if it takes more than a few ms to make the switch, that's long enough for your mind to start playing tricks on you, well my mind anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think most of the DBTs I've read about do use a switch box like that. DACs would need a digital switch. I'm planning on building a switch to test the differences in output impedance from my NAD amp. Again it won't be a double blind test, but I may make some measurements with my SPL meter to confirm what I hear, or don't hear.

 Dont' hear is almost always the case with me. ABX of digital music is the perfect case. I can never here a difference. I don't think it's my mind playing tricks so much as as soon as the second sample starts, I lose memory of any subtly in the first sample. I've never actually determined my threshold. I went down to 128 and couldn't hear the difference and just stopped there. 

 I might be able to train myself to hear the difference, using clips that I've seen that developers of compression algorithms use. I figure, why bother. I'm not one of the developers, and I can't imagine it will improve my listening experience. Plus it takes away from listening time. I never want to do that


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kilgoretrout* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.....Glad to have you onboard the skeptic camp. Where are the rest of us?_

 

Maybe like me, virtually retired from Head-Fi as it seems to have run its useful course as far as I am concerned.

 I'm tired of the silly arguments about gear and cables that have nothing to do with real enjoyment of music. There are much better things to do with my leisure time rather than reading a 17 year old's argument that the soundstage of one headphone is huge versus another when all he does is listen to studio recordings of metal, or other things like that.

 Or trying to help new users of the 0404 USB that never took the time to read the manual!


----------



## scompton

The Ortho thread more than anything keeps me coming back. And I continually find good threads, both educational and amusing. There have been a couple of threads lately that have made me laugh out loud.


----------



## Fallensky

When connecting the Emu to a an amp such as the little dot mkiii, would using an RCA to (balanced) TRS produce better sound quality over an RCA to an (unbalanced) TS?

 Also, the emu site states that the 0404 usb is compatible with "24-bit/192kHz " but almost every other site I look at says it is only compatible up to 24/96 - What is responsible for this discrepancy?


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *technobarbie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the EMU 0404 PCI version,_

 

PCI version and external USB version don't use the same DAC.

 0404 PCI = A/D converter: PCM1804 

 0404 USB = A/D converter: AK5385A


----------



## milkweg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Larger contact areas (vs. one small contact area for both channels), further physical separation between cables, and the possibility of using larger gauge wire._

 

Yea, that's the theory but I have compared both analog outputs and heard no difference between the two.


----------



## .Sup

I have it= best bang for the buck ever


----------



## TyRip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *milkweg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PCI version and external USB version don't use the same DAC.

 0404 PCI = A/D converter: PCM1804 

 0404 USB = A/D converter: AK5385A_

 

I know this is an old thread, but this person mentioned DAC and then referenced the A/D converter model numbers. You would be looking for the D/A if using it solely for DAC. A/D would be to record analog inputs to digital.


----------



## cwoo

The 0404 USB offers some of the best price to performance out there. I am sure there a better DACs out there and there are definitely better amps that suit different headphones much better but the SQ from this little guy is pretty solid. It plays well with many different headphones. I am planning on getting a tube amp to pair with my hd650s but will continue to use the 0404 as my DAC.


----------



## leeperry

I guess the showstoppers on the 0404USB are:
 -it only uses NE5532 op-amps
 -the ASIO drivers are very poorly written and need to reselected in foobar after each reboot
 -the fixed samplerate in the drivers, meaning that bit-perfect is not quite "automatic"
 -apparently when you use it w/o a computer, it's stuck on 48KHz on the digital input each time you turn it on...you have to plug it to a computer to set it to 44.1? that's a bummer


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess the showstoppers on the 0404USB are:
 -it only uses NE5532 op-amps_

 

So do the Benchmark DAC1 / DAC1 USB... Depending on the implementation, they're not necessarily deal-breakers.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* 
_-the ASIO drivers are very poorly written and need to reselected in foobar after each reboot_

 

It was my understanding that this was a combination of the Foobar developers not caring to fix this quirk and the fact that when the audio interface is turned off, it appears not to exist in Windows. E-MU did this so that Windows will automatically default to the next working sound card.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* 
_-the fixed samplerate in the drivers, meaning that bit-perfect is not quite "automatic"_

 

Not sure what you mean... Sample rate is automatically selected via ASIO, or can be selected manually when no sound is playing.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* 
_-apparently when you use it w/o a computer, it's stuck on 48KHz on the digital input each time you turn it on...you have to plug it to a computer to set it to 44.1? that's a bummer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No... From E-MU's site: "The 176.4 kHz and 192 kHz samples rates are no longer stored on power-off. Now, the system defaults to 44.1 kHz." My guess is that this is to prevent accidental upsampling. If you send it a digital signal, it will automatically change the sample rate, it just won't be set to a high-res rate right at power-on. The other question is, how often will the device see unencrypted 176.4 kHz or 192 kHz digital signals via coaxial/optical? Probably not often.


----------



## leeperry

I think that's because ASIO drivers are supposed to be virtual, and E-Mu didn't bother making them this way...or fix it..and the foobar guys don't care to fix it either, still at this point you have to reselect it in the foobar ASIO config(a bunch of clicks) after each reboot?! geeez 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 oh ok, it's bit-matched on ASIO..cool!

 well, I read some ppl complaining that the default hardware samplerate is never remembered...and apparently the default was 48KHz?! at least it's 44.1 so it ain't so bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 still the ASIO hiccup and the 5532 are a no-go for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 plus there's no KS drivers, so no bit-perfect Reclock on XP..


----------



## Elfenau

Rempert;3708999 said:
			
		

> You can only learn so much from reviews and recommendations, because each person only has experience with a limited set of gear. This is made worse by the "flavor of the month" effect, where an item gets a strong recommendation leading a large number of new head-fi members (who have nothing comparable in their experience) to buy it, and of course they all love it, and then they recommend it at every opportunity. But those recommendations only really carry the weight of a satisfied customer, not the weight of an expert in the field. So they are little better than reading reviews at amazon.com or whatever. Trying to piece together those reviews and make a definitive list of what is "the best" is beyond impossible.
> 
> That said, the EMU line has been a flavor of the month for several years now, so the ratio of happy customers must be pretty high.[/QUOTE
> 
> Very well said. Notheless people seek for info regardless in many cases. Info


----------



## Shadorne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edba2000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This matter is getting very confusing. 
 Some people say the EMU 0404 USB is the best (even better than the Benchmark DAC1!!), another say Prelude 7.1 is the best, others are saying DIY Monica DAC is also the best!, and so on...

 I know that the people ears are all different, but.. It would be nice to have a Thread with sound cards (internal and external - price/quality) votes. 

 Thanks in advance to all._

 

I have both. 

 I use the EMU 0404 USB occasionally to generate test tones/sweeps and record and power a measurement microphone - it is an excellent product good value and does what it does well.

 However, I use the Benchmark DAC1 daily to listen to music via ATC 100's. 

 Enough said.


----------



## maarek99

I just tested the Emu 0404 USB and the Essense STX. Hmm. I believe the Emu 0404 USB has better and more true to the original sound. I tested the Essence with both the original stock opamps and LM4562 opamps in the I/V conversion stages using the hd650.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *maarek99* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just tested the Emu 0404 USB and the Essence STX. Hmm. I believe the Emu 0404 USB has better and more true to the original sound._

 






 I honestly think that the AK4396 sounds better than the PCM1792...especially when the latter doesn't have its oversampling forced to 128X(default is 64X on the PCM1792 and 128X on the AK4396).

 also, the caps of the STX are known to be very harsh and "digital"-sounding to death.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?


----------



## Graphicism

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shadorne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have both. 

 I use the *EMU 0404 USB* occasionally to generate test tones/sweeps and record and power a measurement microphone - it is an excellent product good value and does what it does well.

 However, I use the *Benchmark DAC1* daily to listen to music via ATC 100's. 

 Enough said. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Is there a noticeable difference, do you also use an amp?


----------



## Shadorne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Graphicism* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is there a noticeable difference, do you also use an amp?_

 

ATC's are Active no need for power amp. I use a AVM 20 preamp DSP that has AKM 4396's A to D's for movies and it works great, tons of functionality but I suspect it is a little jittery as the DAC1 sounds just that wee bit better and cleaner.

 The EMU is mainly for calibrations for overall in room response (acoustic treatments and all ) as well as of each individual speaker. Honestly I have not made a serious effort to compare EMU to the DAC1 but frankly the specs on the DAC1 are so solid for the price that it just makes no sense for me to experiment that way. (Doug Sax really liked the Benchmark DAC1 - what more can I say - he has famous golden ears which are relied upon by most of the global music industry - a large portion of the high quality stuff out there was mastered by him)


----------



## Graphicism

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shadorne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ATC's are Active no need for power amp. I use a AVM 20 preamp DSP that has AKM 4396's A to D's for movies and it works great, tons of functionality but I suspect it is a little jittery as the DAC1 sounds just that wee bit better and cleaner.

 The EMU is mainly for calibrations for overall in room response (acoustic treatments and all ) as well as of each individual speaker. Honestly I have not made a serious effort to compare EMU to the DAC1 but frankly the specs on the DAC1 are so solid for the price that it just makes no sense for me to experiment that way. (Doug Sax really liked the Benchmark DAC1 - what more can I say - he has famous golden ears which are relied upon by most of the global music industry - a large portion of the high quality stuff out there was mastered by him)_

 

Putting Doug Sax and his famous golden ears aside for a second would you/could you setup a blind A/B between the EMU and DAC1 and see if you can differentiate the two and find a clear winner. No matter the outcome I would be extremely interested to hear your results, you say there is little sense in experimenting but we are talking about a $150 source vs a $1,000 one.


----------



## LingLing1337

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Graphicism* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Putting Doug Sax and his famous golden ears aside for a second would you/could you setup a blind A/B between the EMU and DAC1 and see if you can differentiate the two and find a clear winner. No matter the outcome I would be extremely interested to hear your results, you say there is little sense in experimenting but we are talking about a $150 source vs a $1,000 one._

 

+1, let's hear it. Or are you afraid to find out the results for yourself, Shadorne?


----------



## magma79

i have a question which may see duhh to some
 hoping for confirmation

 if i will be using an external amp would their be any difference in the DAC of an emu 404 usb and an emu 404 PCI?

 i ask since there is almost an 85$ price difference between the 2 versions
 i plan to use PC as source and an external int amplifier to power studio monitors

 would the PCI version make more sense /?


----------



## Shadorne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Graphicism* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Putting Doug Sax and his famous golden ears aside for a second would you/could you setup a blind A/B between the EMU and DAC1 and see if you can differentiate the two and find a clear winner. No matter the outcome I would be extremely interested to hear your results, you say there is little sense in experimenting but we are talking about a $150 source vs a $1,000 one._

 

I'll think about it - if I can find a way to do it accurately I will. I guess the EMU will need to be driven by a USB iTunes lossless track (burned from a CD) and fed to the speakers while the same audio track is played simultaneously from the CD on a CD player feeding optical to the DAC1 (I don't have the USB version). I'll need to figure out a way to get things synced, level matched and the switching remotely, as A/B comparisons that require getting up and changing something are too much for my sonic memory. 

 What I mean is this: I know that the performance should be fairly close. (My experience, even in the jittery word of digital audio, is that many good quality sources are quite close in sound quality - especially stuff built in the last 5 to ten years - I'll admit it ain't night and day stuff, for the most part)

 Alternatively does the EMU have optical out
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - I guess I could feed that to the DAC1 if it does....that might be a simpler and less complex way to run the test and allow the track to stay pretty much in sync and use my relays in my dsp along with a remote to switch from the comfy chair.


----------



## Graphicism

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shadorne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll think about it - if I can find a way to do it accurately I will. I guess the EMU will need to be driven by a USB iTunes lossless track (burned from a CD) and fed to the speakers while the same audio track is played simultaneously from the CD on a CD player feeding optical to the DAC1 (I don't have the USB version). I'll need to figure out a way to get things synced, level matched and the switching remotely, as A/B comparisons that require getting up and changing something are too much for my sonic memory._

 

It shouldn't be hard at all to have a lossless album playing in sync on both the computer and CD player, even a few seconds apart would be perfectly fine for the test. Simply plug in the headphone to the DAC1, listen for say 30 seconds, unplug and plug into the EMU and listen for another 30 seconds. If you can take it one step further, have someone blindfold you and have them do the changes for you.

 Make sure to repeat the test about 10 times, this way if you pick different DACs as favorites the result is there is no difference.

 Also main thing to look out for is that they are both matched in volume.


----------



## leeperry

you can open two foobar instances, sync them and run them in loop.


----------



## Shadorne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Graphicism* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Simply plug in the headphone to the DAC1, listen for say 30 seconds, unplug and plug into the EMU and listen for another 30 seconds. If you can take it one step further, have someone blindfold you and have them do the changes for you._

 

I did not consider to compare headphones I thought we were referring to A to D conversion and to speakers - the DAC1 is serious stuff for a headphone amp - I have not heard better - equal perhaps but not better.

 Are you aware that the EMU 0404 output impedance is 22 ohms and has a mere 20 mW rated output -which is like 1 volt into a typical 60 ohm load of a high end headphone like the AKG K701.

 The DAC1 with HPA 2 can go to +14 dbU into 60 ohms and still meet rated performance this is roughly 6 volts ...and the output impedance is 0.01 Ohm.

 I don't need to compare headphones to know that the HPA2 inside the DAC1 is going to absolutely kill the EMU when driving the majority of headphones. Of course the rather low damping factor of around 3 of the EMU (with such high output impedance) may give the impression of better heavier bass (warm tubey sound ?) but that would be a significant alteration of the bass response which may help certain headphones only 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Not trying to pick a fight here - just sticking to stated specifications.


----------



## donunus

Does the emu0404 now work flawlessly with vista?


----------



## DefectiveAudioComponent

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shadorne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't need to compare headphones to know that the HPA2 inside the DAC1 is going to absolutely kill the EMU when driving the majority of headphones. Of course the rather low damping factor of around 3 of the EMU (with such high output impedance) may give the impression of better heavier bass (warm tubey sound ?) but that would be a significant alteration of the bass response which may help certain headphones only 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not trying to pick a fight here - just sticking to stated specifications._

 

Warm tubey sound? heavier bass? Are your talking about your EMU 0404 usb now? You listened to it through the headphone out just now and heard that? With what headphone?


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *regal* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_being better than a Benchmark DAC1 is really not saying much at all. The only thing the DAC1 ever had going for it was the balanced output. If you don't need that there are many many DAC's with smoother fuller sound for much less $'s._

 

When did generating "smooth and full" become an objective of digital to analog conversion. It isn't a tone generator, it is a converter. It should be transparent. In a DAC, "smooth and full" is probably just colored.

 P


----------



## Phelonious Ponk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Still, I've read through that test, and my conclusion was that the results were only valid for the group of people being tested. A different group of ears may have arrived at a different result. This is why many people question the usefulness of DBTs, as they can only prove what sounds subjectively better to a test group or individual. In my opinion, the usefulness of DBTs is discovering whether or not people can hear a difference at all between equipment, not necessarily determining that a piece of equipment inherently sounds better. And even in that case (for example, comparing MP3 and lossless formats), the result is only applicable to the test group or individual._

 

DBT has been used very successfully to test both audibility and preference. To get past the "groups of ears" problem is simply a matter of time and money. Run enough trials, test enough people, you'll get past the margin for error and reach pretty conclusive data. Most of the DBT we talk about on forums are informal and uncontrolled and you're right, of course, they only tell on person or one small group of people what they can hear or prefer, without the sighted influence of psychological bias. It's extremely valuable, but only for those directly involved.

 For an inside view of more professional use of DBT, check out Sean Olive's blog: Audio Musings by Sean Olive

 P


----------



## donunus

uhm, anyone able to answer my question whether the 0404 now works with vista?


----------



## chinesekiwi

mm...the Asus Essence STX I've read on here is quite similar to the Emu 0404. So anyone here who has both want to compare the two?

 Advantages of the Essence STX over the E-MU 0404 I can see is stable ASIO drivers, better for headphones, able to be opamp-rolled.


----------



## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *magma79* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i have a question which may see duhh to some
 hoping for confirmation

 if i will be using an external amp would their be any difference in the DAC of an emu 404 usb and an emu 404 PCI?

 i ask since there is almost an 85$ price difference between the 2 versions
 i plan to use PC as source and an external int amplifier to power studio monitors

 would the PCI version make more sense /?_

 

E-MU's site lists the PCI version as having the AKM AK4395 DAC; the AK4396 in the 0404 USB is a significant improvement, and this bears out in the specs. For some reason I thought the 0404 PCI eventually got the AK4396, but I remember hearing anecdotes that the 0404 USB sounded better. One advantage is that USB interfaces aren't tied to the motherboard/PSU power, so it's possible to avoid some EMI there.


----------



## Cankin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_uhm, anyone able to answer my question whether the 0404 now works with vista?_

 

Yes, you might also look at EMU site.


----------



## donunus

I got confused at first because the site only said it supports XP but found that they had updated drivers that made them work for vista just now. Thanks


----------



## MarkMDR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shadorne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have both. 

 I use the EMU 0404 USB occasionally to generate test tones/sweeps and record and power a measurement microphone - it is an excellent product good value and does what it does well.

 However, I use the Benchmark DAC1 daily to listen to music via ATC 100's. 

 Enough said. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't want to hijack the thread, but wonder if y'all could give me some pointers of other options between the $199 EMU and the $1K+ Benchmark? 

 I'm driving ATC SCM-20SLA active monitors. I was running an RME Digi96 PCI but just upgraded to vista and can only get it to work with certain apps - they are no longer supporting the card, so only ASIO will work. That's fine for things like mediamonkey, but not Netflix on demand, Pandora, etc. I just don't want the hassle of something else for low res apps, switching back and forth etc. 

 I certainly don't need to spend more if the EMU is 95+% for 20% cost. Just need clean 2 channel (balanced would be preferred). I swapped in my little HeadRoom BitHead just to see how close it was - not close by a mile, the RME was dramatically better even though it was internal. I must say I'm not sold on the internal/external thing either, yeah there is a lot of noise but it's all in the MHZ/GHZ range, and those are the cards that they record the stuff with in the first place, so it can't be soo bad.

 I do respect Doug's ears, one of his techs taught me about horn speakers 15 years ago and Doug helped me tune up one of the prototypes. Killer system he has in his lab. But he also taught me to be a skeptic of the "wine and cheese" audiophile products. As you pointed out, lots of variances are caused by impedance problems.

 Thanks!!

 Mark


----------



## DeusEx

DACMagic?


----------



## Shadorne

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MarkMDR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't want to hijack the thread, but wonder if y'all could give me some pointers of other options between the $199 EMU and the $1K+ Benchmark? 

 I'm driving ATC SCM-20SLA active monitors. I was running an RME Digi96 PCI but just upgraded to vista and can only get it to work with certain apps - they are no longer supporting the card, so only ASIO will work. That's fine for things like mediamonkey, but not Netflix on demand, Pandora, etc. I just don't want the hassle of something else for low res apps, switching back and forth etc. 

 I certainly don't need to spend more if the EMU is 95+% for 20% cost. Just need clean 2 channel (balanced would be preferred). I swapped in my little HeadRoom BitHead just to see how close it was - not close by a mile, the RME was dramatically better even though it was internal. I must say I'm not sold on the internal/external thing either, yeah there is a lot of noise but it's all in the MHZ/GHZ range, and those are the cards that they record the stuff with in the first place, so it can't be soo bad.

 I do respect Doug's ears, one of his techs taught me about horn speakers 15 years ago and Doug helped me tune up one of the prototypes. Killer system he has in his lab. But he also taught me to be a skeptic of the "wine and cheese" audiophile products. As you pointed out, lots of variances are caused by impedance problems.

 Thanks!!

 Mark_

 

As far as I know Doug uses uses custom Meitner for A/D and standard Benchmark DAC1s for D/A - all hooked up to his brother's proprietary tube EQ setup and ATC's all round. This DAC seems to be a good match with ATC (the clean thin sounding lower mids are just awesome with the forward ATC sound - great on male vocals - a very articulate sound with nothing artificial such as increased sibilance. Imaging is very tight - a narrow soundstage that some people don't like - I recall reading a report that the Lavry D10 throws a wider soundstage). 

 Have you considered used? You can sometimes find a used DAC1 on Audiogon for as little as $650 to $800, as everybody now wants the newer models. However, for a second hand DAC the price still holds up very well compared to most others. I guess it is similar to how a used Toyota holds up well in price compared to a used Ford.


----------



## runswithaliens

Has anyone compared the E-MU 0404usb DAC/Headphone Amp/Pre-Amp capabilities to the PreSonus Central Station?


----------



## MarkMDR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shadorne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As far as I know Doug uses uses custom Meitner for A/D and standard Benchmark DAC1s for D/A - all hooked up to his brother's proprietary tube EQ setup and ATC's all round. This DAC seems to be a good match with ATC (the clean thin sounding lower mids are just awesome with the forward ATC sound - great on male vocals - a very articulate sound with nothing artificial such as increased sibilance. Imaging is very tight - a narrow soundstage that some people don't like - I recall reading a report that the Lavry D10 throws a wider soundstage)._

 

I spent much of my early life around music instruments, so am very picky about dynamics and natural textures of acoustic instruments, voices. Imaging, soundstage, can be sacrificed if need be. But bloom anywhere drives me nuts, have heard it in lots of good equipment when the components didn't play well, part of why I'm a minimalist - if I didn't have the ATCs might look at the new DSP powered speakers with digital input. As much as I like my ATCs, I loved loved loved the Mastering Labs old monitors, 2 JBL or Altec horns (I forget now) on top with something like 15"ers for bass and mid bass. tweaked to high heaven. I can still remember Sax playing a cut that had someone with a gourd in the background, it sounded so...organic with so much detail and texture. We remember the weirdest stuff. One of the guys who worked on his tweak tube stuff lived up near fresno, had this set up that was the closest thing to live I've every heard on a playback system, you could be on the front porch and swear there was a grand piano or Harry James in the house, the dynamics were just stunning.

 Sorry for all the rambling. I've been away from audio for a while.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shadorne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Have you considered used? You can sometimes find a used DAC1 on Audiogon for as little as $650 to $800, as everybody now wants the newer models. However, for a second hand DAC the price still holds up very well compared to most others. I guess it is similar to how a used Toyota holds up well in price compared to a used Ford._

 

Thanks for the reminder of the used market. I'm a little gun shy with older gear given the issue I just went through with not being able to get drivers for my RME pci card. My only concern with the DAC1 is it's the darling du jour and when the next wunderkind comes out, it'll be mud and the value will tumble....and will it be supported in Windows 9. I guess I should decide if my concern is long term support or resale value. After being out of the audio market for 10-15 years to come back and hear people tweaking USB cables, oh brother, things never change.

 After a brief survey it looks like the audition group is something like DAC1 (spdif or USB), Apogee mini-dac (spdif or firewire), RME 9632 internal PCI, Cambridge DACMagic, EMU 0404. 

 Would love to hear from anyone who's A/B'ed any of these. Many thanks to all for the input, it's very helpful.


----------



## jruser

I have read this entire thread but couldnt find an answer.

 Could someone explain how this functions as a standalone DAC, not hooked to a computer? I thought I read something about this working only at 44.1khz, but it wasn't very specific.

 If I am not hooked up to a computer and send in 24/96 or 24/192 over optical, will this not get sound?


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## donunus

The 0404 is great with the pc as a standalone dac. I dont have an sacd player to test for high res though


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## infinitesymphony

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jruser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have read this entire thread but couldnt find an answer.

 Could someone explain how this functions as a standalone DAC, not hooked to a computer? I thought I read something about this working only at 44.1khz, but it wasn't very specific.

 If I am not hooked up to a computer and send in 24/96 or 24/192 over optical, will this not get sound?_

 

What source are you using that will send unencrypted 24/96 or 24/192 over optical?


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## jruser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *infinitesymphony* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What source are you using that will send unencrypted 24/96 or 24/192 over optical?_

 

It was a hypothetical question. I have been considering buying this to use as a stanalone DAC, but can't find any specific information about how it works, other than that it is possible.


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## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jruser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was a hypothetical question. I have been considering buying this to use as a stanalone DAC, but can't find any specific information about how it works, other than that it is possible._

 

DAC means digital to analog converter, which means you need to first have a digital source (the 0404 usb takes USB, TOSLINK, and coaxial). The 0404 can be a stand alone (without computer) when u have a toslink/coaxial source, such as a cd/dvd player. It can also be a standalone preamp for mics.


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## jruser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *penguindude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_DAC means digital to analog converter, which means you need to first have a digital source (the 0404 usb takes USB, TOSLINK, and coaxial). The 0404 can be a stand alone (without computer) when u have a toslink/coaxial source, such as a cd/dvd player. It can also be a standalone preamp for mics._

 

I know what a DAC is. I am wondering how this works when using a SPDIF source, not attached to a computer. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that this can only do 44.1khz if not connected via USB, and I was hoping an owner of this device woudld expand on this as nobody has been very descriptive on how it actually works as a standalone DAC.


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## ROBSCIX

I would think you connect up a CD or DVD player with a S/Pdif output to the 0404.
 If it can be used in this manner.


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## uraflit

using toslink or coaxial = no need for computer


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## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jruser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know what a DAC is. I am wondering how this works when using a SPDIF source, not attached to a computer. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that this can only do 44.1khz if not connected via USB, and I was hoping an owner of this device woudld expand on this as nobody has been very descriptive on how it actually works as a standalone DAC._

 

I think ure confusing urself buddy. As explained, CD/DVD Player that has SPDIF(out) can connect to the SPDIF(in) of the EMU, and EMU outputs that signal as analog to your speakers/headphones. Which part dont u understand?


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## infinitesymphony

Let's say jruser has a standalone player like a modified Oppo that can send unencrypted high-res signals. His question is, when it's being used as a standalone DAC, does the 0404 USB downsample everything to 44.1 kHz?

 My guess is no, that it will correctly change the sample rate from its default 44.1 kHz up to 192 kHz. I have a hunch that it now defaults to 44.1 kHz because some digital sources are not good about sending clocking information, or that somehow it's possible to get 'stuck' at a higher sample rate than you'd want to use with a CD player, for example.


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## Realistic

Quick question to 0404 usb owners: Can you select and use the microphone inputs on the 0404 to use in programs like ventrilo or skype? 

 another question anyone using the 0404 usb running windows 7 64 bit? Is there any problems with it?


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## penguindude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Realistic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quick question to 0404 usb owners: Can you select and use the microphone inputs on the 0404 to use in programs like ventrilo or skype? 

 another question anyone using the 0404 usb running windows 7 64 bit? Is there any problems with it?_

 

Yes, just treat it as a regular soundcard.

 I'm using the emu on Windows 7 32-bit without any problems, so 64-bit shouldnt be any issue.


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## giga

Just to confirm, is the only way to use it as a standalone DAC is to use SPDIF (coaxial or optical)? 

 Is USB is not possible or am I missing something here? I can still change the volume through my mac as well as through the "main output" dial on the unit itself.


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## Reticuli2

Does the 0404 have the capability of the line outs and the headphone out being on separate ASIO paths?


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## ginetto61

Hi !
 out of curiosity .... is there still someone using this interface ?
 i have heard an impressive low noise. 
 Thanks and regards,  gino


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## Graphicism

Odd this old thread just got dug up, but I'm wondering what replaced the 0404?


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## jiiteepee

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !
> out of curiosity .... is there still someone using this interface ?
> i have heard an impressive low noise.
> Thanks and regards,  gino


 
  
 I still have this device in daily use. Since 2009. Zero issues so far.
 Works on both of my Windows PC:s (W7 / W10).


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## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *jiiteepee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> I still have this device in daily use. Since 2009. Zero issues so far.
> Works on both of my Windows PC:s (W7 / W10).


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the valuable reply.
 I was looking for a simple usb interface and this one popped up in the 2nd hand market very cheap.
 Then i found this very impressive set of measurements
  
http://archimago.blogspot.no/2013/02/measurements-e-mu-0404usb.html
  
 i intend to use it with win 7 so i understand it will not be an issue.
 Thanks a lot again
 gino


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## spearo

I still own a 0404 USB (for antequarious reasons heh)....it served me well.In it's priceclass it was for a certain time a very good ADC.The old beta drivers still work...sadly these PC drivers are actually total crap and outdated as well ...However, i could run it on Win 7 pretty well at 9-10 ms latency.
  
 But according to the topic title i'd never call this device "really the best" or shift it into proximity of ADC's like the Benchmark DAC1,the RME Fireface UC ,or the the Lavry AD11 or even the smallest Weiss DAC for example.Even the older RME Babyface blasts the emu0404 usb out of it's socks.I switched a moon ago to the RME Fireface UC and in terms of sonic fidelity and neutrality , drivers, latency, mixer software,usability, support etc ...the emu doesn't even play in  2.league while the Fireface UC plays already champions league .If anyone is still on the opinion the 0404 is "The Best " ...well, put your helmet on and take your proteine pills .  
  
  
 However if you're on a tight budget and you can get a used emu 0404 for say 50 bucks ...i''d say it's worth it


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## ginetto61

spearo said:


> I still own a 0404 USB (for antequarious reasons heh)....it served me well.In it's priceclass it was for a certain time a very good ADC.The old beta drivers still work...sadly these PC drivers are actually total crap and outdated as well ...However, i could run it on Win 7 pretty well at 9-10 ms latency.
> 
> But according to the topic title i'd never call this device "really the best" or shift it into proximity of ADC's like the Benchmark DAC1,the RME Fireface UC ,or the the Lavry AD11 or even the smallest Weiss DAC for example.Even the older RME Babyface blasts the emu0404 usb out of it's socks.I switched a moon ago to the RME Fireface UC and in terms of sonic fidelity and neutrality , drivers, latency, mixer software,usability, support etc ...the emu doesn't even play in  2.league while the Fireface UC plays already champions league .If anyone is still on the opinion the 0404 is "The Best " ...well, put your helmet on and take your proteine pills .
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! which pc source are you using ?  
 are you using the usb input on your RME Fireface UC ?
 Thanks a lot,  gino


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## spearo

In fact i do listen to 95% clean 24/96 vinyl rips stored on a external HDD connected via Wireworld Starlight usb 3.0 to my msi laptop which is connected to my Fireface UC via Wireworld Starlight usb 2.0 which is connected to my Amp and finally speakers.
  
 This gave me imho so far the best sonic results compared to toslink or spdif...the wireworld starlight USB cables are really an ear opener ...some say USB cables do not make any difference but i asure you once you've tested them on a good system against generic usb cables you'll never switch back to those generic USB cables again.I had before the Ultraviolet cables which are more on a budget side but even the Ultraviolet gave me a clear sonic benefit as well ...but the Starlight is nontheless minimum 1 class better than the ultraviolet .
  
 They do need about 60-70 hours of burn in but you can already hear how much better and cleaner the sound is right from the start.
  
 However, i do recommend as well to switch from the standart fireface power supply to a battery driven one (build one myself , no witchcraft)...the fireface profits clearly from it .I'd recommend going this way for any ADC ,clean power is very important.
  
 After a full burn in those tweaks will put a fat grin on your face ...trust me 
  
 If you intend to use ADAT i.e. toslink or spdif,i'd put the RME ADI-2 into consideration since it is clearly less cost intense compared to the Fireface UC and does a great job as well, just keep in mind the ADI-2 offers less connecting possibilities. Another great plus for RME stuff is their excellent reseller value so the money is well invested.


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## Zeleni Zec

jiiteepee said:


> I still have this device in daily use. Since 2009. Zero issues so far.
> Works on both of my Windows PC:s (W7 / W10).


 
 Hi, which drivers are you using on Windows 7/10? I tried "EMUU_PCAppDrvFw_L6_1_30_07" on Windows 7 without success, computer just freezes if I try to access E-MU 0404.


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## Schonen

I have an EMU 0404 USB - packed away somewhere. To me it sounded a bit lean and am now using a Cambridge CXA80 which is a Wolfson DAC, headphone amp, and stereo amp so serves me better.


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## Alexium

Been listening through 0404 USB for years, still do on Windows 10. No problems with drivers. Used to have DPC latency issues on Win 8, no longer do on Win 10. Think that wasn't caused by EMU at all, but no way to know for sure.
  
 I only have one minor trouble with it: sometimes it just stops playing sound and I have to power-cycle it. Then it works again. Usually occurs when the system was silent and then something starts playing, but sometimes occurs mid-song as well. Sometimes happens twice a day, sometimes once a week. Thankfully, the power switch solves this problem very conveniently 
  
 As to what superseded it nothing from Creative, AFAIK. There other MIDI USB interfaces in the $100-200 range, but I'm not sure if their DAC is as good. If you just need stereo playback and nothing else, I recommend getting a decently modern no-snake-oil DAC like JDS Labs ODAC.


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