# Schiit Modi and Magni comparison to Bifrost and Asgard



## Defiant00

*Schiit Modi and Magni compared to Bifrost and Asgard*
   
*Preface*
  I have had my Bifrost and Asgard for a bit over a year, using them primarily with my LCD-2s at work. Since my work laptop has no SPDIF I only use the Bifrost through USB so that is what I used for this comparison as well. I have always felt that the Bifrost is a bit of overkill to only use through USB, so when the M&M were announced I decided it would be an excellent opportunity to compare them and see if I would be happy with a cheaper setup for work.
   
  First, some pictures:
   

  Next to each other, the M&M are so small and, dare I say it, cute.
   

   

  Mix-and-match, I'll be updating this with these impressions in the next few days.
   

  The new stack.
   

  The elevation 'problem' with the PYST cables (nice cables and surprisingly flexible, but even so they still do this).
   

  My simple solution.
   

  Test setup, laptop is to the right with both plugged in through USB.
   

  Cables and such.
   
   
*First Impressions*
  Straight out of the box I didn't really care for the M&M, even with the LCD-2s I found they had exaggerated and harsh treble. But I intended to keep them for at least a few weeks and give them some time regardless, so instead of worrying I just looped some test tracks and went to watch TV.
   
  As an aside, I don't know if Schiit burns in these new ones the way they do all their higher-end amps and DACs. I never heard a big change with the Asgard or Bifrost, but something had changed noticeably with the M&M when I went back to listen a few hours later. Initially there was a big treble difference between the two stacks, but after a few hours I was no longer confident I'd be able to tell them apart.
   
*Subjective Impressions*
  Please keep in mind that I have been using the Bifrost and Asgard almost daily for the past year so anything different from their sound signature is likely to sound a little off to me at first even if it is objectively better (and if it's something I'd actually prefer in the long run).
   
Bass and Mids
  At anywhere near normal listening levels and even a good bit beyond I can hear no difference in the bass and mids between the two stacks. They both hit incredibly hard with the LCD-2s when called for, and don't when it's not in the music.
   
Treble
  As indicated above, treble started out as an issue with the M&M but has since settled down (just went to have another listen and maybe it's just brain burn-in, but it sounds like it might have gotten a bit better still). In short, there is a slight bit more treble with the M&M stack over the B&A. It started out overly exaggerated and harsh and has now settled down to the point that without having them side by side it's unlikely I'd ever notice the difference. The B&A treble is a little smoother, very minorly quieter, and fits slightly better within the music to my taste (although again, I'm used to the B&A's treble).
   
  However, at this point the M&M treble has settled to the point that I'm actually not sure which stack is more accurate. If there was a way to hear truly perfectly neutral then maybe I could answer that, but as it is all I can say is that the M&M has slightly more treble than the B&A. Whether the B&A has slightly less treble than neutral or the M&M has slightly exaggerated treble I couldn't say.
   
Sibilance
  The M&M has (slightly) more sibilance than the B&A, but neither make the LCD-2 sibilance-prone. I have a _very _sibilant song I typically test with and yeah, it's sibilant with both, but no dramatic differences.
   
Soundstage and Detail Retrieval
  Subjectively I think the B&A might have a slightly better sense of space and soundstage. When listening to specific details I haven't managed to find anything faint or otherwise that I could hear on one that I couldn't on the other, so it's hard to say what might be causing that impression. It may also be possible that harmonic distortion or crosstalk is responsible for the sense of space in the B&A and the cleaner signal from the M&M makes it seem less spacious, but that's just speculation on my part. Without having them side by side I doubt anyone would think they are different, and after blind tests I'm not sure they even are; but this _is_ the subjective part 
   
  For pure detail retrieval I think it might actually be the opposite; the M&M currently sounds just a little bit crisper and more detailed. Of course, with the treble difference this shouldn't be a surprise; unfortunately, as with the treble itself, when comparing the two they are close enough that I can't really say if the M&M's detail is a bit of exaggerated fake treble detail or if the B&A is slightly muffled. Still, as stated above, while listening I haven't managed to find any details, faint or otherwise, that I was only able to hear on one of the stacks.
   
*The Blind A/B Test*
  I had my wife help me with this, our methodology was as follows:
  She would pick a song from my test tracks and play it on one of the two stacks (unplugging and plugging in the headphones each time regardless of whether she switched them on me). She then would switch (or not) the stack that it was plugged in to four or five times, playing the same section of music each time. I recorded which I thought I was hearing and she kept track of what she had it hooked up to. I was in the same room but facing away, and the amps were volume matched using pink noise and a sound recorder I have that has a decibel indicator.
   
Specific Results
  Song name and link.
  Thoughts and notes.
*right / total*
   
  OC Remix - We Can See No.373 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVmmdE6pYyk
  I thought the M&M sounded a bit harsh and the B&A sounded smoother on the percussion (synths still a bit harsh at times though). Joke's on me though, since both the times I thought were harsher and the smoother ones were both the B&A, and the times it was switched to M&M I thought it was the B&A instead.
*2 / 5*
   
  nervous_testpilot - Schism : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOA0JgktOks
  First listen I thought was nice and clear so it must be the B&A, which it wasn't. I then thought the next couple listens sounded the same but they weren't. Then I thought I heard some harshness in some of the background noises so figured it was the M&M (nope).
*2 / 5*
   
  Caravan Palace - Clash : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yebo5ILBMC0
  Thought the M&M had a bit more treble and actually correctly identified the stacks the first 3 times. Then things fell apart and I got it wrong the next 3 times.
*3 / 6*
   
  Sakamichi no Apollon OST - Kaoru & Sentaro Duo in BUNKASAI Medley : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BNRENSEV0g
  I was confident on this one; B&A had a larger soundstage and M&M had slightly harsher drums. I got the first two listens right and then the wife left it on the B&A and I got it wrong both times 
*2 / 4*
   
  OC Remix - Blackout Tower : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUP1ZBwK2S0
  A recent favorite OCRemix of mine for it's high energy and good bit of treble presence, and apparently an excellent way to prove that these two stacks are hard to tell apart. Started off with the M&M which sounded good and clean and was misidentified as the B&A. I then correctly identified it the second time but thought it had more treble than the same M&M stack less than a minute ago. After that I spent 3 more listens identifying the M&M as the B&A and the other way around.
*1 / 5*
   
  Braid OST - Downstream : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiWXrVXOMAU
  First listen I correctly identified the M&M, second listen (still M&M) I thought it had a better soundstage so it was the B&A. I then correctly identified the B&A twice and then thought she had changed it on me when she hadn't. And at the end had a lucky guess and correctly guessed M&M to end.
*4 / 6*
   
   
  End result, I only got it right 14 out of 31 times. Since straight guessing says I should get it right half of the time, I'd say this is fairly conclusive that if I can't see what I'm listening to that they sound pretty much the same.
   
   
*Other Thoughts*
  The Asgard has a better volume knob, it has more usable range and better channel balance at low volumes. At my listening levels the Magni's volume control is about worthless, and with my more sensitive cans as soon as I get out of the channel imbalance zone on the M&M I'm already louder than I'd like to be. Fortunately, if you're using it with the Modi in 24 bit mode and you have 16 bit music files (effectively everything I listen to) then you can use your computer's volume control with no loss of sound quality. If that bothers you or you have lots of 24 bit music then perhaps this isn't the setup for you, but personally I have no problem setting Windows to 25% volume and having a good usable range on Magni.
   
  The Bifrost clicks (through the headphones, not the relay) when you stop playing a track through USB, the Modi does not. It's a small click/pop, certainly not anything that would damage headphones (so it's not a problem or anything), but it was a pleasant little surprise that the Modi didn't do the same.
   
  The Magni's gain is just silly. Initially I was joking about wanting to try an HE-6 or K1000 with it at the upcoming Charlotte meet, but now I'm really looking forward to it. This thing has way more clean power than anyone should be able to produce from such a small setup.
   
   
*Conclusion*
  If you're only going to be using it through USB I can hear no reason why you would choose the B&A over the M&M using the LCD-2s. Unless you like the larger look. Or brushed aluminum. Or want to be able to cook something on your amp. The Bifrost and Asgard are both very good, but for an office USB setup the M&M are hard to beat even without taking into account the price difference.
   
  While I'm definitely going to live with these for the next few weeks and spend more time comparing before making any final decisions; tentatively I think the B&A might be for sale here soon.
   
   
*Real Conclusion (1/10/13)*
  I have been using the M&M at work exclusively for about the past week (just left the B&A at home) and just today brought the B&A back in for a last comparison before I put one of these up for sale. My impressions after getting more used to the M&M stack is very similar to the initial impressions, they really sound amazingly close to the B&A through USB and I highly recommend them.
   
  But (and I'm sure some people guessed this was coming), ultimately I've decided to sell the M&M stack. I'm still finding the slight treble etch distracting, to me it makes the M&M sound less coherent and musical. It seems to emphasize the differences between the instruments, making each stand out separately instead of flowing together as one coherent whole. As a photographer this seems similar to excessive sharpening being applied; the result is the same picture with the same overall amount of detail, just exaggerated. Also, when listening at low levels this actually seems more pronounced; the M&M seems to sound better at higher volumes whereas the B&A sounds pleasant even at lower levels.
   
  I still fully maintain that the M&M is quite good, especially for the price, and if I didn't already have the B&A I'm sure I would be quite happy with them. However, given the choice between the two I'll be sticking with my B&A, I just find that I enjoy my music more with them.


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## Defiant00

*Mix-and-Match Fun*
   
  Apologies in advance, but this section is going to be less formal and more just my general impressions from trying the various amp and DAC combinations. No blind A/B-ing here, just me sitting down and switching cables back and forth as fast as I can to see if I can hear any differences.
   
*Magni VS Asgard*
   
  First, let's get the easy part out of the way, the amps. I used a couple y-splitters to connect a DAC to both amps at once and level matched them by ear. I made sure that the splitter wasn't interfering with the sound first (more on this later) and then did some fast and easy testing. Since both amps were hooked up at once all I had to do was switch which amp the LCD-2s were plugged into at any point during a song and see if I could hear any differences.
   
  And my conclusion is...(pause for dramatic effect)...as far as I can tell, at any volume I would normally listen to (or a bit above), I can hear no difference at all between the Magni and Asgard.
   
  I tested this using both the Modi and Bifrost and both amps accurately amplified the slightly different sound signatures that they received from the two different DACs. So yes, ultimately this comparison came down to the DACs, which is where the difference is.
   
*Modi VS Bifrost* *USB*
   
  According to my notes, I was able to more easily tell the DACs apart when using the Asgard. Since when I was testing the amps I couldn't tell them apart I'll chalk this up to the fact that when I was testing the DACs I was having to switch RCA cables each time, which likely made it harder to consistently remember and hear differences. I was initially planning on running both DACs into an amp using my y-splitters and switching outputs on the computer so only one would be active at once (and I could switch almost instantly in the middle of a song, which would have been hugely useful). However, when I tried this the Bifrost became muffled and the Modi very etched; no idea what exactly was going on, but as soon as I unplugged one of them the other started acting normally (even though the other wasn't outputting anything), so I was stuck switching RCA cables each time instead (yay).
   
  With the Magni as the amp I had a hard time switching cables fast enough to come to any significant conclusion, so the following information is all from using the Asgard (and from what I can tell from comparing the amps directly should be equally applicable to the Magni, but I wasn't able to directly hear it on it).
   
  In general the Modi VS Bifrost matches my impressions of the M&M stack compared to the B&A stack. The Modi has slightly more treble and a little bit of digital etch / glare / harshness compared to the Bifrost, which is just slightly smoother in the treble. Midrange and bass are fine on both and close enough that I could hear no differences between the two. Unlike when comparing the two stacks, I think it now sounds to me that the Bifrost is slightly more detailed, but it's more of a general feeling since as before I have yet to manage to pick out a single detail that I could or couldn't hear on one of the DACs.
   
  I want to emphasize that the overall difference between these two is _very_ small, if you're using Bifrost exclusively over USB I'd say the Modi easily gets you at least 90% of the way there for less than 1/4 of the price. And yes, that's a pretty arbitrary number that I probably put way too much thought into (I was mainly hesitating between 90 and 95% though, if that says anything).
   
  The biggest problem that I've had comparing the two is that I'll focus on some aspect of the treble on the Modi, thinking I've found a noticeable difference, and then I go back to the Bifrost and find that it's almost identical. I believe if I could make myself just listen to my music and not focus on little details then I'd probably be equally enjoying myself with either, but for now I'm in over-analytical mode so I keep picking apart my songs instead.
   
   
  And yes, I realize I'm using the word _slightly_ was too often, but it really needs to be emphasized that the difference is _very_ small. The Modi is not painfully harsh and the Bifrost isn't muffled, they are just very minorly different.
   
   
   
*Modi VS **Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio*
   
  More than anything this comparison emphasized to me how little of a difference I can hear between DACs. Both were run into the Magni at 50% computer volume in 24 bit mode and volume matched by ear. From what I can tell the Modi is slightly clearer and more detailed with a little more treble, but I'm actually most impressed with how good the sound card sounds directly into the Magni. I think that if this was the computer I was going to be using the Magni with then I probably wouldn't bother getting the Modi.


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## compoopers

Great comparisons here. I like the pictures and clever rubber band solution. Thanks!


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## TTNK

Subbed!


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## merkil

This is the exact thread I have been waiting for. Thank you. I was thinking of pairing the Modi with the Asgard and I would love to hear your impressions on that. If there is no considerable difference ill save some coin and just pick up the M&M stack.


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## Defiant00

Quote: 





compoopers said:


> Great comparisons here. I like the pictures and clever rubber band solution. Thanks!


 
   
  Quote: 





merkil said:


> This is the exact thread I have been waiting for. Thank you. I was thinking of pairing the Modi with the Asgard and I would love to hear your impressions on that. If there is no considerable difference ill save some coin and just pick up the M&M stack.


 
   
  Glad I could help. I should have (likely not as extensive) comparisons between the amps and DACs separately here in the next couple days, although with how close the full M&M stack is to the significantly more expensive B&A I'll be even more surprised if I can hear a difference with just one component changing. Although I suppose alternately that the M&M might balance each other out in some way that results in them not pairing as well with other components. Should know in the next couple days here.


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## TheGame21x

I was wondering when something like this would pop up.
  Excellent comparison! Makes me even more eager to order a Magni/Modi stack!


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## Aaron1006

Very interesting read. Looking forward to the mix-and-match as well!


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## smellyfungus

With those pics you make that Schiit look extra sexy. Thanks for the comparison. Makes me feel good about switching from the Asgard/Bifrost down to the M&M. Now I can spend the extra money on more stuff I don't need.


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## Defiant00

Thanks all, glad you found it useful! Probably the first time I've had the opportunity to review something before there are a ton of other reviews/comparisons.
   
  Quote: 





smellyfungus said:


> With those pics you make that Schiit look extra sexy. Thanks for the comparison. Makes me feel good about switching from the Asgard/Bifrost down to the M&M. Now I can spend the extra money on more stuff I don't need.


 
   
  Hello fellow downgrader, that sounds awfully familiar. For me whatever gets sold goes towards my customs fund that I *cough* already ordered *cough*
   
   
*Edit: *Well, definitely going to have to be careful during the mix and match, the review today (and subsequent listening at higher-than-recommended listening levels) has aggravated my tinnitus. I may have to give it a day or two before going back to any serious listening.


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## MoNelly

Nice work; very useful comparisons.


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## MoNelly

Quick question: Does the Modi ship with a USB cable in the box?


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## SgtPepper

One of the most useful reviews I've seen on this site; A great model to follow.


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## headsounds

Quote: 





monelly said:


> Quick question: Does the Modi ship with a USB cable in the box?


 
  No. 
   
  you must buy your own.


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## USAudio

> At my listening levels the Magni's volume control is about worthless, and with my more sensitive cans as soon as I get out of the channel imbalance zone on the M&M I'm already louder than I'd like to be.



I think this is an important issue. It would be nice if the Magni's volume pot ramped up less aggressively. Irregardless, this combo is such a great value they're hard to resist!



> While I'm definitely going to live with these for the next few weeks and spend more time comparing before making any final decisions;



You probably already know but just in case you don't, the Schiit return policy is 15 days.



> End result, I only got it right 14 out of 31 times. Since straight guessing says I should get it right half of the time, I'd say this is fairly conclusive that if I can't see what I'm listening to that they sound pretty much the same.



I'd like to see someone do a blind test like this with Magni/Modi and O2/ODAC


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## headsounds

The volume knob is a problem for me as well. Is there something I can do to change the potentiometer?


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## USAudio

headsounds said:


> The volume knob is a problem for me as well. Is there something I can do to change the potentiometer?



As Defiant00 mentioned in his original post, you could use the computer volume control to do minor adjustments. I usually set my computer volume to around 50 then adjust the amp's volume to a comfortable level. Then you can do minor up/down adjustments from there with the computer's master volume (digital attentuation).


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## Defiant00

Quote: 





sgtpepper said:


> One of the most useful reviews I've seen on this site; A great model to follow.


 
   
  Thanks! That means a lot to me, especially considering how many excellent reviews there are on here.
   
  Quote: 





usaudio said:


> I think this is an important issue. It would be nice if the Magni's volume pot ramped up less aggressively. Irregardless, this combo is such a great value they're hard to resist!
> You probably already know but just in case you don't, the Schiit return policy is 15 days.
> I'd like to see someone do a blind test like this with Magni/Modi and O2/ODAC


 
   
  Yeah, I fully agree; I think how the volume pot ramps up is probably its biggest weakness. Fortunately, the combination of low noise floor and 24 bit DAC means it becomes quite usable if you drop Windows' volume level a bit (just tried it a while ago with Windows set to 25%, which made it about as easy to adjust as the Asgard).
   
  As far as returning anything, I'm actually going to be keeping it all at least until the Charlotte meet on the 20th, whatever I sell will go on sale there first. Besides, if it ends up being the Bifrost and Asgard then I'm over a year outside of the trial period already 
   
  Fully agree on the O2/ODAC, if anyone wants to send me them to compare I'd be happy to do so


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## Defiant00

Quote: 





headsounds said:


> The volume knob is a problem for me as well. Is there something I can do to change the potentiometer?


 
  Quote: 





usaudio said:


> As Defiant00 mentioned in his original post, you could use the computer volume control to do minor adjustments. I usually set my computer volume to around 90 then adjust the amp's volume to a comfortable level. Then you can to minor up/down adjustments from there with the computer's master volume (digital attentuation).


 
   
  Alternately, you can set the computer volume fairly low so you have a large usable range. At around 25% on the computer I found that the Magni's volume control seems nicely accurate.
   
  As stated before though, whether this degrades the audio quality is dependent on how you're getting the sound to the amp. For 16 bit music (aka, everything I listen to, CD rips and mp3s) into a 24 bit dac that leaves you with 8 extra bits to digitally attenuate the signal before you lose any data (in theory 25% should be 2 bits, so yeah, digital volume control away)


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## tamleo

these new Schiit's products are quite small more than i imagined
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Nice impression, thanks!


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## wippo808

Very nice write-up and that Blind A/B testing was quite convincing/shocking.  So tempted to get the M&M now...
   
  And by the way, that's a very nice Go board in the pics. Just out of curiosity, is it for aesthetics or do you play as well?


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## peter123

Great review man.

Thank you very much for sharing you're findings. I really enjoyd reading it.

I'm so looking forward to get my Magni.


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## reddragon

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Alternately, you can set the computer volume fairly low so you have a large usable range. At around 25% on the computer I found that the Magni's volume control seems nicely accurate.
> 
> As stated before though, whether this degrades the audio quality is dependent on how you're getting the sound to the amp. For 16 bit music (aka, everything I listen to, CD rips and mp3s) into a 24 bit dac that leaves you with 8 extra bits to digitally attenuate the signal before you lose any data (in theory 25% should be 2 bits, so yeah, digital volume control away)


 
   
   
  im sure this belongs to sound science but if i want to line out, the digital volume on transport has to be maxed out to not lose data? is that what you are saying?


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## Johnson184

Thank you very much for this. I've always wondered how big a difference there was for the large price difference!


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## mknlb50

Yep this was exactly what I was looking for. I hope someone with an HD650 does the same!


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## USAudio

defiant00 said:


> For 16 bit music (aka, everything I listen to, CD rips and mp3s) into a 24 bit dac that leaves you with 8 extra bits to digitally attenuate the signal before you lose any data (in theory 25% should be 2 bits, so yeah, digital volume control away)



Is that what it is with the windows system volume control, 25% is 2 bits? I wasn't sure. I remember there being long discussions on the Squeezebox forums on the subject and what range would have impact on resolution.


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## Defiant00

Quote: 





wippo808 said:


> Very nice write-up and that Blind A/B testing was quite convincing/shocking.  So tempted to get the M&M now...
> 
> And by the way, that's a very nice Go board in the pics. Just out of curiosity, is it for aesthetics or do you play as well?


 
   
  I do play Go, just not recently unfortunately. My main playing partner now lives a couple hours away and I haven't gotten back into the online scene yet.
   
  Quote: 





reddragon said:


> im sure this belongs to sound science but if i want to line out, the digital volume on transport has to be maxed out to not lose data? is that what you are saying?


 
    
  For 16 bit data into a 16 bit DAC, yes. For 16 bit data into a DAC set to a higher bit mode, no, you can digitally attenuate to a certain point without losing any data.
   
  Quote:


usaudio said:


> Is that what it is with the windows system volume control, 25% is 2 bits? I wasn't sure. I remember there being long discussions on the Squeezebox forums on the subject and what range would have impact on resolution.


 
   
  For integer values, yes, 25% (aka, dividing by 4) should result in using 2 of the extra bits. For more details see below.
   
  Disclaimer, I'm a CS major but I'm not specifically familiar with the bit format used for USB audio. With that said, if you have 16 bit music and are sending it to a 16 bit DAC then any digital attenuation will actually lose data. With 16 bit data sent to a 24 bit DAC you have 8 extra bits (data in *bold*, extra bits red):
  So for example:
*1110111010101111*                                Original 16 bit sample
*1110111010101111*00000000                  24 bit representation (all samples just grow 8 zeroes at the end, same data, more bits)
   
  Since each bit is a zero or one, to get half value you would effectively move each bit to the right once. So in the case of 25% you would do this twice. Here's how the same sample would look at 1/4 volume:
*0011101110101011*                              16 bit, all the numbers moved to the right twice and zeroes replace the leftmost bits
*001110111010101111*000000                 24 bit, in this case instead of throwing away the last two 1s they just moved into those extra 8 bits, so we don't lose those small details (and you've still got 6 extra bits for further volume adjustment if you need it)
   
  This is all assuming USB audio sends the data as an integer, but if it's done as a float then it's a similar principal, just not exactly the same. If it _is_ an integer then these 8 extra bits of padding means you can adjust your volume down to 1/256 and not lose data (256 = 8 bits = 2 ^ 8).
   
   
  Anyways, ultimately the exact range you can adjust before losing sound quality is dependent on what your source is and how exactly it does the digital attenuation, but in general unless you go dropping the volume into the single percents you will likely not be causing any SQ loss. And just from listening, even at 5% I wasn't able to hear any difference with the Modi in 24 bit mode.


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## reddragon

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> I do play Go, just not recently unfortunately. My main playing partner now lives a couple hours away and I haven't gotten back into the online scene yet.
> 
> 
> For integer values, yes, 25% (aka, dividing by 4) should result in using 2 of the extra bits. For more details see below.
> ...


 
   
   
   
  wait but why is that if you are not lining out, you are free to mess with the digital volume without having to worry about losing data? as we all know, there has to be a dac and an amp to give sound for digital audio. so for not lining out, you are using a device's internal dac and amp. for lining out to another amp, you simply skip the internal amp and use an external amp, so how and why is that different from not lining out? or are you saying it doesnt matter if you lineout or not, its a matter of the dac, if its 16 bit audio going into 16 bit dac, you must max out volume to not lose any data, regardless of what amp you are using?


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## rune-san

That's pretty awesome. If I didn't enjoy the sound of Tubes so much (mmm dirty, dirty harmonics), I would consider getting it and replacing my Valhalla. And if I didn't like my optical out I would maybe even give up my BiFrost. I think Schiit has done a great job here. Those that want multiple interfaces in their DAC will do the BiFrost or the Balanced Gungnir, while the people who just need a great USB interface can do the Modi. Those that was a Tube sound or to drive really heavy orthodynamics can do the Valhalla, Lyr, or Balanced Mjolnir, while those who just need an efficient Amp can do the Magni. Personally, in my listening, I think the Asgard has been made obsolete by the Magni. The Magni is simply "good enough" at a vastly cheaper price point. The Modi however, I feel filled a very important, and missing niche for Schiit in providing a high quality, USB only DAC. To summarize, I feel the Magni replaces the Asgard, while the Modi provides a new high quality entry to complement the rest of the Schiit DAC lineup.


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## Defiant00

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> wait but why is that if you are not lining out, you are free to mess with the digital volume without having to worry about losing data? as we all know, there has to be a dac and an amp to give sound for digital audio. so for not lining out, you are using a device's internal dac and amp. for lining out to another amp, you simply skip the internal amp and use an external amp, so how and why is that different from not lining out? or are you saying it doesnt matter if you lineout or not, its a matter of the dac, if its 16 bit audio going into 16 bit dac, you must max out volume to not lose any data, regardless of what amp you are using?


 
   
  Digital volume adjustment is just changing the bits before they even get to the DAC. If you're doing it in 24 bit mode then you're not throwing any data away, if you're doing it in 16 bit with 16 bit audio then you're throwing away actual audio data (whether you can hear it or not is another thing entirely).
   
  Basically, your signal path is (Digital data, already volume adjusted by your computer) to (DAC, which converts it to analog and multiplies the signal by a fixed gain) to (amp, which adjusts the signal via a volume control and then amplifies it) to headphones.
   
  Digitally adjusting volume means a quieter signal will be sent to and produced by your DAC. If your DAC or amp are at all noisy then this increases the chance that you'll hear the noise, since the signal itself is much quieter. This is typically why you'd want to line out.
   
  Hope I explained it well enough, but if you have any more questions perhaps we should either take this to PM or maybe the Computer Audio or Sound Science sections.


----------



## rune-san

The above is correct. This is exactly the reason many sources (including most Digital sources on computers like S/PDIF, HDMI, etc.) will not let you adjust the volume when using those options


----------



## USAudio

According to NwAvGuy, to whom we are not allowed to link to here:
  "* Taper* - Alps makes two slightly different audio tapers for volume control use “3B” and “15A”. The 3B taper is at 50% (-6 dB) at half volume. The 15A taper has a more gentle taper up to 70% and then it becomes more steep. If you listen mostly at lower volumes the 15A taper is likely the better choice. If you listen often close to full volume, the 3B might be better. "
   
  Not sure which taper Schiit is using with the Magni or if it would even make much of a difference?


----------



## headsounds

So how do I figure out if my MODI is set to 24 bit mode?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





headsounds said:


> So how do I figure out if my MODI is set to 24 bit mode?


 
   
  If in Windows go to your sound settings, Playback tab, select the Modi and hit Properties. Go to the Advanced tab and under Default Format select any of the 24 bit options (I use 24 bit 44100 Hz since most all my music is 44.1)


----------



## headsounds

Thanks! I had it set to 16bit 44100hz. 24 bit sounds better now at lower volumes!


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





headsounds said:


> Thanks! I had it set to 16bit 44100hz. 24 bit sounds better now at lower volumes!


 
   
  Glad I could help. With my quick 5% volume test I get noticeable hiss with the Modi in 16 bit and none at all in 24 bit.


----------



## kidgafanhoto

Man, great review, congratulations! I think the only miss is a photo of the accessories which come with each device.

 I was searching for a DAC to my Denon D2000, i was almost buying the HRT Headstreamer, so i see the Modi, but unfortunately by what i see, he can't be used without a AMP ((


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





kidgafanhoto said:


> Man, great review, congratulations! I think the only miss is a photo of the accessories which come with each device.
> 
> I was searching for a DAC to my Denon D2000, i was almost buying the HRT Headstreamer, so i see the Modi, but unfortunately by what i see, he can't be used without a AMP ((


 
   
  You are correct, the Modi is just a DAC, you need a separate amp.
   
  As far as accessories, they both come with the same two page manual and stick-on feet. The Magni also comes with the power adapter, and that's it. No cables or anything else at all. Still, I did snap a picture of the adapter, so I may put that up when I update this later.


----------



## AtomicFrostX

Thank you for posting this comparison. It's also refreshing to see that a blind A/B test was done. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  From reading your comparison, it seems that Schiit did a really great job on both the Magni and Modi.
   
  I was also worried about using my low impedance headphone with the Magni due to it having 5 gain. Thank you for explaining how using a DAC in 24/96+ will let you digitally attenuate the signal down a bit without affecting the sound quality for most recordings.
   
  Right now I have an X-Fi Titanium HD, and I wonder how the Modi would compare to that. I'm tempted to pick up the Modi just because it looks great with the Modi, and than I could just use my sound card with my speakers. It's hard to find good comparisons between hardware. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I noticed that in your pictures it looks like one of your PYST cables is longer than the other. Is it, or is it just an optical illusion? They look like high quality cables, and would work well if I did decide to buy the Modi too.  
   
  It'll be really interesting to see how both stacks sound when mixed.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





atomicfrostx said:


> Thank you for posting this comparison. It's also refreshing to see that a blind A/B test was done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks, glad I could be of some help 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I've got...uh, I actually think it's some sort of X-Fi card in my gaming PC (it's been quite a while since I've concerned myself with it, so I'd have to check specifics). No guarantees, but if that is what's in there then I may at least do a brief comparison with my Grados and/or Shures (I have no 1/8" to 1/4" adapter, so no LCD-2s).
   
  Yeah, the PYST left cable is about 3/4" longer than the right one. I can offer no explanation, but they do work fine


----------



## Speedv1

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Thanks, glad I could be of some help
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I would appreciate a brief computer card (your XFI) vs the Modi when you have the time!


----------



## Defiant00

Mix-and-match section is up. A bit less structured, but hope it helps.


----------



## AuxNuke

Just wanted to quickly say that I found your review very helpful and accurate.  Thanks for taking the time to perform this testing.


----------



## AtomicFrostX

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Mix-and-match section is up. A bit less structured, but hope it helps.


 





 It does help a lot. I had been wondering if I would be better off getting an Asgard over the Magni and Mogi. However, after reading your comparison it seems that the Magni is pretty much on par with the Asgard, and the Mogi is a really capable DAC. Both together cost less, and you get both an amp and a source. 
   
  It seems that the M&M stack does a great job runing into the diminishing returns wall where you would have to spend a lot more money to get a noticeable performance bump.
   
  Even though I already have a decent DAC (X-Fi Titanium HD) I'm really tempted to get the Mogi. I'd also be able to use the M&M stack with my laptop which would be a nice plus. However, seeing how this would be my first headphone amp and USB DAC It would spend most of its time on my desktop. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
   
  That Monoprice RCA cable also looks well built, but it does look like it would dwarf the M&M stack compared to the PYST cables.


----------



## LugBug1

Great comparison and very helpful thanks


----------



## merkil

Thanks for the comparison. Looks like I'll be picking up a Modi but I advent decided on the amp yet. Since you have both does the Asgard also have a channel imbalance at low volumes? and which one would you say is more future proof between the Magni and the Asgard? I believe the Magni has more overall power but that might not tell the whole story.
   
  Thanks


----------



## keithc

Really cool review, especially the blind trial which very few people take the effort to do.


----------



## Analgesic

Reading this made me wonder whether it was worth spending $1000 on the Lyr/Bifrost...does sound fantastic to my ears though


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





analgesic said:


> Reading this made me wonder whether it was worth spending $1000 on the Lyr/Bifrost...does sound fantastic to my ears though


 

 It all depends on what is important to you I guess.  With the Lyr you get a lot of power, line out and the tube sound w/rolling.  With the Bifrost you get a slightly upgraded DAC chip, upgradability and more input flexibility.  If those things aren't important to you then the value offered by the Magni and Modi combo is hard to beat!


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





merkil said:


> Thanks for the comparison. Looks like I'll be picking up a Modi but I advent decided on the amp yet. Since you have both does the Asgard also have a channel imbalance at low volumes? and which one would you say is more future proof between the Magni and the Asgard? I believe the Magni has more overall power but that might not tell the whole story.
> 
> Thanks


 
   
  The Asgard has channel imbalance at the lowest end, but the volume ramps up _much_ more gradually than the Magni, so it isn't an issue. As an example, with my Grados the Asgard is still quiet when the channel imbalance goes away, with the Magni it is a bit louder than I would typically listen to.
   
  For power, they both have a lot more than any of my cans need. I typically listen around 9 with the LCD-2s with the Asgard (computer at 100%), and with the computer's volume set to 25% I listen around a similar level with the Magni. The Asgard is nicer to use, but for just sound quality I can't tell any difference.


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> The Asgard has channel imbalance at the lowest end, but the volume ramps up _much_ more gradually than the Magni, so it isn't an issue. As an example, with my Grados the Asgard is still quiet when the channel imbalance goes away, with the Magni it is a bit louder than I would typically listen to.
> 
> For power, they both have a lot more than any of my cans need. I typically listen around 9 with the LCD-2s with the Asgard (computer at 100%), and with the computer's volume set to 25% I listen around a similar level with the Magni. The Asgard is nicer to use, but for just sound quality I can't tell any difference.


 

 I think Schiit needs to address this volume control issue with the Magni.  It greatly reduces the usability of the amp IMHO.  A great product otherwise.


----------



## AtomicFrostX

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> I think Schiit needs to address this volume control issue with the Magni.  It greatly reduces the usability of the amp IMHO.  A great product otherwise.


 
  I do wish that they had used a better volume pot. Both the Magni and the Asgard both have a gain of 5 so it's not a gain difference. The only good thing is that the problem with the Magni's volume pot issue really only with lower impedance headphones. Problem is that a lot of headphones are lower impedance. 
   
  I guess I'll find out how big of a problem the volume pot is when I order mine.  
   
  I do realize that I'll have to digitally attenuate the signal due to the high gain. I wish that the Magni had a gain switch, but it's really hard to ask for much more at the $99 price point. Heck, most amps at this price range are in cheap plastic cases.


----------



## moshen

Great review, every review needs to set a blind A/B test as standard


----------



## bob439

Felt like I was in 2nd grade reading the review, simple and easy to grasp. Well done.
Made my search for Amp/DAC combo so much easier.
Will M&M drive Beyer 600 ohm well ? If so, do I have to worry about the volume knob issue being discussed.

Thanks


----------



## Parallax982

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Mix-and-match section is up. A bit less structured, but hope it helps.


 

 Where is the mix-and-match section? Can't seem to find it. Can you post a link? Thanks.


----------



## leechi

Quote: 





parallax982 said:


> Where is the mix-and-match section? Can't seem to find it. Can you post a link? Thanks.


 
   
  It's post #2 of this thread.


----------



## Parallax982

Quote: 





leechi said:


> It's post #2 of this thread.


 

 Thanks.


----------



## Parallax982

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> *Mix-and-Match Fun*
> 
> Apologies in advance, but this section is going to be less formal and more just my general impressions from trying the various amp and DAC combinations. No blind A/B-ing here, just me sitting down and switching cables back and forth as fast as I can to see if I can hear any differences.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for posting these great reviews. Went ahead and ordered the Modi after reading your impressions.


----------



## tootallmoose

Quote: 





bob439 said:


> Felt like I was in 2nd grade reading the review, simple and easy to grasp. Well done.
> Made my search for Amp/DAC combo so much easier.
> Will M&M drive Beyer 600 ohm well ? If so, do I have to worry about the volume knob issue being discussed.
> Thanks


 
  I let a friend of mine with the 600 ohm DT880s borrow my Magni for a while and he said they sounded fantastic.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





bob439 said:


> Felt like I was in 2nd grade reading the review, simple and easy to grasp. Well done.
> Made my search for Amp/DAC combo so much easier.
> Will M&M drive Beyer 600 ohm well ? If so, do I have to worry about the volume knob issue being discussed.
> Thanks


 
   
  Thanks! The M&M should definitely have enough power. Depending on the usable range you want on the volume control you may want to digitally attenuate it some though; I don't have any Beyers to test with though to find out (that and it's really dependent on what you consider a normal listening level).
   
  Quote: 





parallax982 said:


> Thanks for posting these great reviews. Went ahead and ordered the Modi after reading your impressions.


 
   
  Thanks, I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

All in all, I just think the Magni needs a gain switch. I like it's gain, but it does make it hard to adjust volume for more sensitive cans. I'm usually at around 9-10 o'clock in terms of driving my HE-400 LOUD. That's way too early in the volume knob. Should be around 11....


----------



## ninjames

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> If in Windows go to your sound settings, Playback tab, select the Modi and hit Properties. Go to the Advanced tab and under Default Format select any of the 24 bit options (I use 24 bit 44100 Hz since most all my music is 44.1)


 
  All of my files are FLAC CD rips - would setting it to 24 bit be detrimental, or is that what it should be at?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





ninjames said:


> All of my files are FLAC CD rips - would setting it to 24 bit be detrimental, or is that what it should be at?


 
   
  At the very worst 24 bit will sound the same as 16 bit, and if you're adjusting volume on the computer then you want to have it in 24 bit mode to not lose data.
   
  So I'd just leave it in 24 bit mode.


----------



## peepr

Regarding the volume pot...I just ordered the magni for use with my fiio e7 as dac. As you know the e7 has volume from 0-60. When I use my vintage nikko receiver as my amp, I put the e7 to 60 and receiver sits around 10 oclock on the pot. This is with D2000's. With the magni, is there anything wrong with setting the e7 to say 30 or 45 and having more room on the magni? Or is highest e7 output best?


----------



## mikeaj

Quote: 





peepr said:


> Regarding the volume pot...I just ordered the magni for use with my fiio e7 as dac. As you know the e7 has volume from 0-60. When I use my vintage nikko receiver as my amp, I put the e7 to 60 and receiver sits around 10 oclock on the pot. This is with D2000's. With the magni, is there anything wrong with setting the e7 to say 30 or 45 and having more room on the magni? Or is highest e7 output best?


 
   
  Lower volume on the E7.  If I remember correctly, that adjusts the volume control in the TPA6130 chip (the amp chip that's _after_ the DAC), for what that's worth.  Usually it's not something worth fretting too much about, but it's a much more significant thing than a lot of factors that some audiophiles obsess over, IMHO.
   
  But don't go overboard reducing from the E7, or you're just making the signal small at the E7's output, reducing the effective SNR.
   
  As usual:  a tradeoff.  Then again, I'd just set whatever is more comfortable to use in terms of adjusting volume.  In fact, for D2000, I'd consider just using the E7 by itself and forgetting the Magni, if you try the Magni and don't particularly like using it more.  It's not like you need that ~1W of power into those headphones.


----------



## peepr

mikeaj said:


> Lower volume on the E7.  If
> 
> As usual:  a tradeoff.  Then again, I'd just set whatever is more comfortable to use in terms of adjusting volume.  In fact, for D2000, I'd consider just using the E7 by itself and forgetting the Magni, if you try the Magni and don't particularly like using it more.  It's not like you need that ~1W of power into those headphones.




Thanks. I find bass with the e7 isnt controlled very well. Too loose. Plus there are a ton of people looking to see how the magni does with the D2000 and i want to write up a review for it. Also nice to compare it to e7 and see. Obviously with hd600's or something the e7 isnt enough. I hope it gets here by the end of the week. Im in florida though...


----------



## USAudio

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> All in all, I just think the Magni needs a gain switch. I like it's gain, but it does make it hard to adjust volume for more sensitive cans. I'm usually at around 9-10 o'clock in terms of driving my HE-400 LOUD. That's way too early in the volume knob. Should be around 11....


 

 I would have paid an extra $25 for a gain switch (or different/better pot) but they probably wanted to keep it under the magical $99 price point and made the decision they did.  Hopefully a running change will be in the works someday...


----------



## nicolo

Hi,
   
  Noob here.
   
  Has anyone tested the Magni with the Ibasso D7? Will the D7+Magni+HE400 be a good combo or sound too harsh?
   
  Thanks,
  nicolo


----------



## dailydoseofdaly

Defiant nice write up it came across as very honest and well thought out. There needs to be more blind testing in reviews! Can't wait to check out the new gear at the Charlotte meet later this month


----------



## calipilot227

I'm tempted to pick up this little stack of Schiit. I'd probably substitute the Modi for a Pro-ject PhonoBox, however


----------



## Hagios

Thanks for the thorough review!  I think I'll be buying some new Schiit to go behind my Asgard, replacing my E10 at work.
   
  Off-topic, that's a gorgeous goban.  That made me drool a fair bit more than the audio kit.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





hagios said:


> ...
> 
> Off-topic, that's a gorgeous goban.  That made me drool a fair bit more than the audio kit.


 
   
  Haha, thanks, now I just need to start playing more regularly.


----------



## Defiant00

Since it's come up a couple times, here's a few more pictures of my Go set.
  And to make this actually sort of related, I actually polished the bowls earlier today with the Audez'e wood care oil


----------



## Parallax982

My Modi arrived yesterday. I've never used a DAC before so I can't compare it to the Bifrost, ODAC or anything else. What I can say is I love it. Right out of the box, I spent the first few minutes switching back and forth between my Macbook Pro soundcard right into Audioengine A5+ speakers vs. through the Modi. It was no contest! The Modi made everything sound richer and warmer. Sounds were more distinct. It was like being present for the music rather than hearing it electronically rendered.
   
  This topic is what finally helped me to pull the trigger on the Modi. Really glad I did. No doubt, in time there will be even better, cheaper DACs as the technology continues to advance. That's why it made sense to me to save a few bucks and get the Modi rather than the Bifrost or even the ODAC. Reports like your indicated that any differences are subtle. This setup is more than good enough. In a year or two, I'll see if anything new has come along that would seem to justify an upgrade. Thanks again.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





parallax982 said:


> My Modi arrived yesterday. I've never used a DAC before so I can't compare it to the Bifrost, ODAC or anything else. What I can say is I love it. Right out of the box, I spent the first few minutes switching back and forth between my Macbook Pro soundcard right into Audioengine A5+ speakers vs. through the Modi. It was no contest! The Modi made everything sound richer and warmer. Sounds were more distinct. It was like being present for the music rather than hearing it electronically rendered.
> 
> This topic is what finally helped me to pull the trigger on the Modi. Really glad I did. No doubt, in time there will be even better, cheaper DACs as the technology continues to advance. That's why it made sense to me to save a few bucks and get the Modi rather than the Bifrost or even the ODAC. Reports like your indicated that any differences are subtle. This setup is more than good enough. In a year or two, I'll see if anything new has come along that would seem to justify an upgrade. Thanks again.


 
   
  Glad I could help, and more importantly, glad you like your Modi!


----------



## mikenike

Wow, I was seriously considering the Bifrost to complement my Lyr, but because of tuition, I figure I might as well get the Modi (didn't even know about it until today!)
   
  Thanks for your review, Defiant00! Definitely solidified my decision to get the Modi. With the subtle increase of treble over the Bifrost, I figure it wouldn't hurt on the HD650. If anything, I could just switch out tubes.
   
  I've been meaning to upgrade the uDac-2 (used primarily as a DAC) for a good while now, and this is a great time for me to do it.


----------



## QBNCT

I have the MM stack and I love it with my HD650s! Ive been using it with my computer at about 10-25% volume and adjusting the magni instead. I do have a question. I'm not sure what you mean by 16 bit and 24 bit files. I've been using ripped files from CDs and I know it's uncompressed at about 1.05mbps or so, but I don't know the difference between the bit files. Can someone help? Thanks!


----------



## TMRaven

CD files are 16bit.  You have to have specially ripped or mastered files for 24bit.


----------



## reddragon

Quote: 





qbnct said:


> I have the MM stack and I love it with my HD650s! Ive been using it with my computer at about 10-25% volume and adjusting the magni instead. I do have a question. I'm not sure what you mean by 16 bit and 24 bit files. I've been using ripped files from CDs and I know it's uncompressed at about 1.05mbps or so, but I don't know the difference between the bit files. Can someone help? Thanks!


 
   
   
  to be more specific, CDs are all in 16 bit 44.1 kHz lossless format. 24 bit files are from vinyl rips and such like tmraven said...


----------



## BrokeStudent

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> to be more specific, CDs are all in 16 bit 44.1 kHz lossless format. 24 bit files are from vinyl rips and such like tmraven said...


 
   
  How would one go about setting their Windows PC to output 24bit when using 16bit files ( I realize the music is still 16 bit) to allow the other 8 bits to be used as the windows volume control thing like the OP posted? I'd love to turn down windows volume without effecting the sound quality coming out of it and having more control out of my amp.
   
  I tried searching but didn't have much luck.


----------



## reddragon

Quote: 





brokestudent said:


> How would one go about setting their Windows PC to output 24bit when using 16bit files ( I realize the music is still 16 bit) to allow the other 8 bits to be used as the windows volume control thing like the OP posted? I'd love to turn down windows volume without effecting the sound quality coming out of it and having more control out of my amp.
> 
> I tried searching but didn't have much luck.


 
   
   
  start> control panel> hardware and sound> manage audio devices> (pick the one you want from the list)> properties> advanced> (change to whatever bitrate you want). 
   
  thats hows its like to do it on my samsung notebook but i dont use my notebook for music. unlike most people here, i do not have a desktop setup. for music, i use my portable dap, ibasso dx100. so for desktop audio, im sure someone else can answer it much better than i can. good luck


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I usually right click on the 'speaker' icon near the time on the bottom right of the task bar. Go to playback devices, and right click on the device you're using (in my case, the ODAC), go to properties, advanced, and default format. You change that setting.


----------



## BrokeStudent

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> start> control panel> hardware and sound> manage audio devices> (pick the one you want from the list)> properties> advanced> (change to whatever bitrate you want).
> 
> thats hows its like to do it on my samsung notebook but i dont use my notebook for music. unlike most people here, i do not have a desktop setup. for music, i use my portable dap, ibasso dx100. so for desktop audio, im sure someone else can answer it much better than i can. good luck


 
   
  Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> I usually right click on the 'speaker' icon near the time on the bottom right of the task bar. Go to playback devices, and right click on the device you're using (in my case, the ODAC), go to properties, advanced, and default format. You change that setting.


 
   
  Thank you both. I have made the change and am using it in 24 bit format now. I may not immediately notice any difference, however I know it is set correctly and that just makes me feel better.

 Thanks again.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

There shouldn't be any difference, until you have actual 24 bit content. Most audio is 16/44.


----------



## Greed

Does anyone know how the Modi DAC, stacks up against the DAC on the Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card? I'm wondering if I should buy both Magni/Modi or just get the Magni and use the DAC on my sound card.


----------



## reddragon

Quote: 





brokestudent said:


> Thank you both. I have made the change and am using it in 24 bit format now. I may not immediately notice any difference, however I know it is set correctly and that just makes me feel better.
> 
> Thanks again.


 
   
   
  you are welcome, glad you were able to change it


----------



## mknlb50

Great Review. Thanks for saving me tons of money on my first entry setup!


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





mknlb50 said:


> Great Review. Thanks for saving me tons of money on my first entry setup!


 
   
  No problem, hope you enjoy them as much as I am!


----------



## Defiant00

First post updated with final conclusions. In short, goodbye Modi and Magni.
   
  They're definitely remarkably close to the Bifrost and Asgard, but overall I just enjoy the B&A stack more.


----------



## peepr

Feel free to send me the modi for futher testing


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





peepr said:


> Feel free to send me the modi for futher testing


 
   
  In jest or not, if these don't end up sold at the Charlotte meet then I may start passing them around to anyone else who'd like to hear them.


----------



## USAudio

I appreciate your review and final observations Defiant00, thanks!  However, don't you have to chalk your final decision up to some subjective bias?
  Given in your blind testing you couldn't statistically tell them apart but in your final Real Conclusion you said there is a "slight treble etch".
  If so, couldn't you then in your blind testing have detected that treble etch to more accurately identify the M&M combo?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> I appreciate your review and final observations Defiant00, thanks!  However, don't you have to chalk your final decision up to some subjective bias?
> Given in your blind testing you couldn't statistically tell them apart but in your final Real Conclusion you said there is a "slight treble etch".
> If so, couldn't you then in your blind testing have detected that treble etch to more accurately identify the M&M combo?


 
   
  Oh absolutely, part of this is definitely subjective, and I can fully confirm that to some extent I like the B&A more just because it was my first good setup and I think it looks better (I don't have an aluminum fetish, I swear!).
   
  I keep trying to write detailed explanations but end up bogged down, so let's try this again in a more casual manner.
   
  Since I wasn't able to instantly switch between stacks and have full control of the music I think the blind test ultimately was at least as much a test of my auditory memory (which is horrible) as it was an actual test of the stacks. I think it was useful in that it demonstrated that they are at least quite similar (no huge glaring issues that made one or the other easily identifiable), but since it required me to try and memorize 30+ seconds of music and then listen for differences after a few second delay I would never claim that it's absolute proof that they are identical, just that they are close enough that my memory is the weak point.
   
  But ultimately though, what it eventually came down to was that during this past week I just found myself not enjoying my music (and using headphones in general) as much. There were a couple songs in my test tracks (incidentally, my test tracks for the most part are songs that I really like and that also happen to be a good example of something I want to test, not just chosen for some sonic trait) that I started skipping because I wasn't finding them as engaging, and one that was actually sounding a bit disjoint (sounded a little like a bunch of separate instruments instead of a song at times). I also found that when watching a couple YouTube channels that I frequent that I was now finding them a little sibilant where (as far as I can recall) I had never felt that way previously.
   
  It's certainly possible that all or part of this is expectation bias, but ultimately for me it's all about enjoying the music, hence my decision.
   
   
  Oh, and don't think this is negative for the M&M either, taken on their own they sound remarkably good and I would definitely recommend them, I just enjoy the B&A a little bit more, and that's more or less what this hobby is all about.


----------



## Greed

Great read... Defiant. You really helped me realize that the Magni and Modi should not compared to much to their older brothers (Asgard/Bifrost) but be taken on as their own place on the totem pole. Thanks for the review and comparison, look forward to your next one!


----------



## USAudio

defiant00 said:


> ... Since I wasn't able to instantly switch between stacks and have full control of the music I think the blind test ultimately was at least as much a test of my auditory memory (which is horrible) as it was an actual test of the stacks...



Blind testing is tough unless the switching is instant, all levels are precisely matched, exact same musical sample, etc.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> Blind testing is tough unless the switching is instant, all levels are precisely matched, exact same musical sample, etc.


 
   
  Exactly. I did what I could with the equipment I had, and I think it provided some interesting information and a fun anecdote. However, it certainly wasn't perfect.


----------



## johnbae

A couple questions after reading this thread:
   
  What are the pitfalls of leaving your computer on say 24/192 all the time? If it'll just revert the sound to 16 anyways, why isn't this the default or does everyone do this?
   
  What material are the M&M made out of if its not aluminum? It looks aluminummy to me...
   
  Any good recs on cables that will bend easily and won't cost more than the stack itself?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## dailydoseofdaly

JB you could try the schiit PYST RCA cables, I believe that was what Defiant was using and they are only 20 bucks a pair. Blue Jean RCA cables are in the same ball park price wise. Monoprice are very inexpensive and are what schiit used previously


----------



## USAudio

johnbae said:


> A couple questions after reading this thread:
> 
> What are the pitfalls of leaving your computer on say 24/192 all the time? If it'll just revert the sound to 16 anyways, why isn't this the default or does everyone do this?
> 
> ...



With Windows, I believe it would then upsample a 16/44 file to 24/96, as the Modi only supports up to 24/96. Personally I want as few changes to the file as possible, and since most of my music is 16/44 I set it to 24/44.

The M&M chassis are made of powder-coated steel. 

I second Blue Jeans Cable.


----------



## Defiant00

johnbae said:


> A couple questions after reading this thread:
> 
> What are the pitfalls of leaving your computer on say 24/192 all the time? If it'll just revert the sound to 16 anyways, why isn't this the default or does everyone do this?
> 
> ...




I see no reason not to leave your computer in 24 bit mode all the time. However, some people prefer to have it set to the same sample rate as their music (so for me 24/44.1) so that Windows isn't resampling everything I play. Would I be able to tell? Probably not. But is it doing extra processing that could theoretically affect how things sound? Yes. Please note that again, this only applies to the sample rate, not the bit depth.

As answered above, it's steel and looks quite nice.

The Schiit PYST cables are good. Monoprice also sells good cables at silly prices (and apparently it's what Schiit uses when testing their amps).


----------



## Grendelrt

Has anyone in here tried using a Android phone to run Magni / Modi through usb?


----------



## papazoid

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> I'd like to see someone do a blind test like this with Magni/Modi and O2/ODAC


 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/642401/comparison-and-review-magni-modi-vs-o2-odac
   
   
*The Review*
   
  The two perform and sound too close to each other to make any practical differences. The Schiit Stack looks better and costs less. Get the Schiit Stack.


----------



## sbtruitt

Thanks Defiant for a refreshingly honest and good review. Even if it is not perfect, I really appreciate the A/B testing. As others have said there should be more of that around here. I already had the Modi which I think is a great value, but after reading this, I went ahead and got the Magni, as I don't think the Asgard is worth it for me, and then I have both of the same small form factor.

I just recently for HE-400, so I'll be interested to see how much of an issue the gain/volume pot are.

Thanks again for a great review.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





sbtruitt said:


> Thanks Defiant for a refreshingly honest and good review. Even if it is not perfect, I really appreciate the A/B testing. As others have said there should be more of that around here. I already had the Modi which I think is a great value, but after reading this, I went ahead and got the Magni, as I don't think the Asgard is worth it for me, and then I have both of the same small form factor.
> 
> I just recently for HE-400, so I'll be interested to see how much of an issue the gain/volume pot are.
> 
> Thanks again for a great review.


 
   
  Glad you enjoyed it. I also fully agree that there's something nice about DAC and amp having the same form factor, and they do look good stacked 
   
  From what I've heard on here and my experience with the LCD-2s I expect you'll enjoy the combo a lot with the HE-400s but may need to digitally attenuate a bit for a truly useful volume range.


----------



## mauroj

Great thread this is. Definitely picking this up asap. Looks like a fantastic option at this price point. I cannot say enough great things about Schiit.


----------



## merkil

If people in this thread haven't been following the schiit Magni thread there have been some posts as of late talking about attenuators like these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=266-244

This will give you more volume range without having to digitally attenuate. Just something to think about if you are afraid of losing sound quality by not having the volume at 100%


----------



## tdockweiler

First they whined about not enough gain on the Asgard (that was me) and now the Magni has too much gain?
  Wow, I think it's impossible for Schiit to make an amp that's will make everyone happy and work with every single headphone on the planet.
   
  I actually like having all that gain. Having my K601 at only 50% volume is kind of new for me..
   
  I still wonder what headphone would need to be past 90% or even 75%
   
  I bet Schiit hasn't found one that needs to be that high with the Modi and Magni.
  Maybe like the K1000 or some Hifiman headphone?


----------



## merkil

tdockweiler said:


> First they whined about not enough gain on the Asgard (that was me) and now the Magni has too much gain?
> Wow, I think it's impossible for Schiit to make an amp that's will make everyone happy and work with every single headphone on the planet.
> 
> I actually like having all that gain. Having my K601 at only 50% volume is kind of new for me..
> ...




It's only to much gain for certain sensative headphones. Of coarse schiit can't make an amp to please everyone but they could have included a gain switch at the cost of making the Magni more expensive. It's a double edge sword. I know Schiits attitude towards their products, they make them their way and their way only. Period. They don't care what ppl want persay, they just want to make amazing low cost products.


----------



## Defiant00

tdockweiler said:


> First they whined about not enough gain on the Asgard (that was me) and now the Magni has too much gain?
> Wow, I think it's impossible for Schiit to make an amp that's will make everyone happy and work with every single headphone on the planet.
> 
> I actually like having all that gain. Having my K601 at only 50% volume is kind of new for me..
> ...




I'm actually going to be trying the M&M with the K1000 and HE-6 tomorrow  Should be fun/amusing.


----------



## peepr

In for that. Should really demonstrate exactly what it is capable of.


----------



## markm1

[size=small]Wow. Thank you for the thorough comparison. [/size]
[size=small][/size]
[size=small]I've just purchased my first “real” headphones-a Grado 225i, and I've been researching amps. [/size]
[size=small][/size]
  [size=small]I posted a query between the Fiio 17 and a Little Dot 1+. I received such strong recommendations for the LD 1+ specifically paired with my 225-that I decided to go with the LD 1+and then maybe add the Fiio to my gear after spending some time with a dedicated amp.[/size]
   
[size=small]I listen to a lot of rock and metal, but enjoy softer sounds like jazz, classical, new age and folk as well. I’m thinking that after some time spent w/ my Grado, it might be fun to add a second pair to contrast my Grados for other genres besides rock. I've got my eye on the HE 400 or 500 and it would be nice to have gear I could use with both.[/size]
   
[size=small]So, all set to go w/ my LD (this is the trouble with research), and then.....upon reading [/size][size=small]your review and the many other positive threads I've read re: Shiit...... I think I may need to add the shiit line to my short list. [/size]
   
  [size=small]I noticed that Shiit recommends Asgard for Grados. But, the stack looks pretty sweet and does that whole "kill 2 birds with...."-thing.[/size]
   
  [size=small]Just curious given your time with all the shiit models...if you or others have any thoughts between the Little Dot 1+ and the Magni or Asgard?[/size]
   
  [size=small]Thanks again for your comparison![/size]
   
  [size=small]Mark[/size]


----------



## peter123

Quote: 





markm1 said:


> [size=small]Wow. Thank you for the thorough comparison. [/size]
> [size=small][/size]
> [size=small]I've just purchased my first “real” headphones-a Grado 225i, and I've been researching amps. [/size]
> [size=small][/size]
> ...


 
  I'll copy from another thread:
   
  If the options are Magni and LD I+ for Grados I'll recommend the LD. I've not heard tha Asgard though.
   
   
  Quote: 





wes008 said:


> Purely going off of the amps (minus the attenuators) how does the LD 1+ compare to the Magni? (I know, two different beasts, I just wanted to hear your comparison)


 
  As you said: two different beasts.
   
  To be honest I've not tested them against each other (I've only got the Magni for a week).
   
  I bought the LD1+ mainly for my Grado's (325is) and it's great for them.
   
  I bought the Magni mainly for my Fischer FA-011 because I was not happy with the sound of them on the LD1+, especially on the low gain setting. I got tired of opening the unit to change the gain setting everytime I wanted to use the FA-011's  (especially since it wasn't a great match anyway). The Magni however has made me love the FA-011's as much as I love my Grados with the LD1+.
   
  I dont loke the Grado's on the Magni very much but I've not listned much to this combination yet (to harsh).
   
  I have a set of NE 408a tubes and a 2107 op amp in the LD making it rather warm sounding (great with the Grado's) .
   
  The Magni is more neutral  (no surprise there) and also more analytical i comparison. This is what I expected and why I bought it. I think these two amps will take care of my amp needs for a long time (the LD is also very flexible and gives the possibility to play around with op amps and tubes).
   
  So hopefully I will not need to buy another amp in a long time.


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





peter123 said:


> I'll copy from another thread:
> 
> If the options are Magni and LD I+ for Grados I'll recommend the LD. I've not heard tha Asgard though.
> 
> ...


 
  That's really helpful-thanks! Yeah, I've ruled out the Magni. The Asgard sounds pretty good, though. I think it's the Asgard or the Little dot1+ Now I just need to bite the bullet...


----------



## Defiant00

markm1 said:


> That's really helpful-thanks! Yeah, I've ruled out the Magni. The Asgard sounds pretty good, though. I think it's the Asgard or the Little dot1+ Now I just need to bite the bullet...




I haven't heard the LD, but to me the Asgard sounds _very_ similar to the Magni. I'd say that if you're ruling out the Magni on sound signature then I'd probably rule out the Asgard as well.


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> I haven't heard the LD, but to me the Asgard sounds _very_ similar to the Magni. I'd say that if you're ruling out the Magni on sound signature then I'd probably rule out the Asgard as well.


 
  Hey Peter,
   
  You know what? That makes complete sense.
   
  However ....This is where the *But*....comes 
   
  I searched a little more and actually found some positive reviews paring Grados (and other brands) w/ the Asgard. Steve Guttenburg on CNET raves about the Asgard and Valhalla (man, he REALLY likes them) and references the 225 paired with the Asgard or the Valhalla. He writes: "_The Valhalla or Asgard, teamed up with Grado's excellent SR225i headphones ($200) are a great way to discover high-end sound on a budget". _
   
  The Valhalla sounds good, as well but, it's an extra $100. And, the Asgard is about $150  jump from from the Little Dot (plus the shipping from China). I'm in the process of upgrading my entire audio system including stereo (currently just have a low end Sony shelf stereo unit with Ipod dock from Best Buys-little more than a glorified boom box).....and I can't go crazy on any one item. I'm trying to make well-informed, conservative choices....piece by piece. I also like the fact that they are made in America and like to support small American businesses. Hopefully, I can buy one amp that is of good quality and will last a long time.
   
  Fact is, currently I do most of my headphone listening on an Ipod anyway. Well, I do listen to music while in a computer room. But, Listening to HP's at a dedicated listening spot is going to be a new way of listening to music. I'm so used to listening on the move even in the house. But, that's with Klipsch ear buds and an Ipod. This is going to take my listening to a new level. I'll just have to see how much time I actually spend plugging in in a situation where I'm sort of tethered to one spot.
   
  Apparently, the Magni is brighter than the Asgard-probably too bright for bright cans, and since Grados are bright and aggressive to begin with kind do double down on those qualities,  whereas the Asgard/Valhalla are, I don't know...have better mids and  lows or whatnot-pardon me-I'm still learning the vocabulary! I'm just an old school rock guy that is dealing with a pretty big learning curve and want some really good sound!
   
  Cheers and thanks for your help,
  Mark


----------



## Defiant00

Well, personally I like my Grados with both the Magni and Asgard quite a bit. I also cannot hear any difference between the amps at the levels I listen at.
   
  With that said, my personal subjective preference would probably be for the Asgard. I like the look of it better and the volume pot is definitely nicer. It also comes with a 5 year warranty which I find pretty compelling. I'm also a solid state fan; if you want to try out different tubes then obviously the Magni and Asgard aren't the best choice


----------



## peter123

Quote: 





markm1 said:


> Hey Peter,
> 
> You know what? That makes complete sense.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I read some positive comments about the combination Magni/Grado's myself so I was actually optimistic when I tried them but it didn't work out for me. I even have a dac with tube output (Advance Acoustic MDA503) paired with the Magni but still i found it to harsh with the Grado's. I will not say I cannot stand it, I just think the LD sounds a lot nicer (with the 325is).I will also order some new tubes for my dac to see if I can make the combination with the Magni better sutied for the Grado's. I would like to make it very clear that I like the Magni a lot with all of my other cans.
   
  Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Well, personally I like my Grados with both the Magni and Asgard quite a bit. I also cannot hear any difference between the amps at the levels I listen at.
> 
> With that said, my personal subjective preference would probably be for the Asgard. I like the look of it better and the volume pot is definitely nicer. It also comes with a 5 year warranty which I find pretty compelling. I'm also a solid state fan; if you want to try out different tubes then obviously the Magni and Asgard aren't the best choice


 
   
  I think it just comes down to a matter of personal preference.


----------



## tdockweiler

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> I haven't heard the LD, but to me the Asgard sounds _very_ similar to the Magni. I'd say that if you're ruling out the Magni on sound signature then I'd probably rule out the Asgard as well.


 

 I think the Magni sounds somewhat similar to the Asgard based on memory. What's interesting though is that I didn't like the K702 with the Asgard, but the Magni is quite good with it (but not great). I also seem to prefer the HD-650 with the Magni.
   
  It makes sense why the LD would sound better with a Grado (or brighter) headphone. Sometimes the Q701 I have sounds a bit more "musical" with my E9, but I think it's just warmer and not as accurate. I guess it all depends on preferences. Not everyone needs or wants the most accurate sound possible.
   
  The Magni shouldn't make anything more harsh than it already is. My Magni did smooth out after 12+ hours of use.
   
  BTW if anyone thinks the Magni is too bright you should give it a week first. I think it's easy to be fooled because it's just not warm and is dead accurate. The brightness is usually due to crappy recordings. You can switch to another very transparent amp and the same recording will sound the same.
   
  I only have the ODAC and Magni, so maybe it's the Modi that's bright. Doubt it.


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Well, personally I like my Grados with both the Magni and Asgard quite a bit. I also cannot hear any difference between the amps at the levels I listen at.
> 
> With that said, my personal subjective preference would probably be for the Asgard. I like the look of it better and the volume pot is definitely nicer. It also comes with a 5 year warranty which I find pretty compelling. I'm also a solid state fan; if you want to try out different tubes then obviously the Magni and Asgard aren't the best choice


 
  I don't know enough to know what I'm a fan of. I've just ordered my first HP and am shopping for my very 1st amp. So, all of your comments are a help. Guess, I'm thinking that for a amp virgin, maybe easier not to fool w/ tubes. BTW, did you look at Little Dot at all when you were making your initial purchases? Both look like good options-on paper at least and recommended for Grados.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





markm1 said:


> I don't know enough to know what I'm a fan of. I've just ordered my first HP and am shopping for my very 1st amp. So, all of your comments are a help. Guess, I'm thinking that for a amp virgin, maybe easier not to fool w/ tubes. BTW, did you look at Little Dot at all when you were making your initial purchases? Both look like good options-on paper at least and recommended for Grados.


 
   
  Well, I don't think you can really go wrong with any of these. Personally I like the general idea and attitude of Schiit as a company here in the US, so I didn't do that much looking around when I got my Asgard.
   
  It's a bit hard to express, but in my mind the Magni is a good stepping stone, a good way to find out if you like solid state (and Schiit in general). However, I don't really see it as a destination, which (sort of surprisingly) I actually think the Asgard is more of, even at its price. Sure, there are lots of better and more expensive amps out there, but even having gotten to listen to a lot of them there hasn't been anything that I've heard that I felt like I really wanted/needed compared to how well the Asgard already performs (with my cans and ears, standard disclaimer and all that).
   
  Still, to reiterate, they're all good amps. And do keep in mind that Asgard was my first amp; I've been to a number of meets now and heard some stellar equipment, but part of my love for the Asgard is certainly just because it's what I got first and is what I'm used to.


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Well, I don't think you can really go wrong with any of these. Personally I like the general idea and attitude of Schiit as a company here in the US, so I didn't do that much looking around when I got my Asgard.
> 
> It's a bit hard to express, but in my mind the Magni is a good stepping stone, a good way to find out if you like solid state (and Schiit in general). However, I don't really see it as a destination, which (sort of surprisingly) I actually think the Asgard is more of, even at its price. Sure, there are lots of better and more expensive amps out there, but even having gotten to listen to a lot of them there hasn't been anything that I've heard that I felt like I really wanted/needed compared to how well the Asgard already performs (with my cans and ears, standard disclaimer and all that).
> 
> Still, to reiterate, they're all good amps. And do keep in mind that Asgard was my first amp; I've been to a number of meets now and heard some stellar equipment, but part of my love for the Asgard is certainly just because it's what I got first and is what I'm used to.


 
  Excellent....thanks! Strong endorsement.


----------



## tranv117

The magni is my first real headphone amp and I have to say, so far I love it! I've dabbled before in DACs but never an amp and boy what a difference it makes.


----------



## markm1

Thanks-I've ordered the Asgard 2! I'm really looking forward to getting it. I'm holding off on a DAC for now. Debating the Modi or the Billfrost-any thoughts between the two other than 2.5 price difference!


----------



## Defiant00

Glad I could help!
   
  As far as DACs, I would say that if this is your first DAC and you only need USB I'd probably just go with the Modi. Bifrost is (a little) better and more refined especially in the highs, but for USB only you're definitely already way into diminishing returns territory. Of course, that's sort of what Head-Fi is all about, so ultimately it's up to you, but Modi is certainly quite good for its price.


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Glad I could help!
> 
> As far as DACs, I would say that if this is your first DAC and you only need USB I'd probably just go with the Modi. Bifrost is (a little) better and more refined especially in the highs, but for USB only you're definitely already way into diminishing returns territory. Of course, that's sort of what Head-Fi is all about, so ultimately it's up to you, but Modi is certainly quite good for its price.


 
  That is SUPER helpful. That's where I've been leaning. I'm saving for a potential second can purchase-couple months down the road (thinking HE 400 or 500) and the Billfrost would set me back a few 100. And, actually, I don't do a lot of listening on a computer. I do most of my HP listening via MP3 (where of course all of this is a mute point) and dedicated CD listening. However, I'm going to investigate some streaming options so that could change 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Cheers!


----------



## ToInfinity

Does anyone have an opinion on pairing up the Asgard and the Modi? Or perhaps the Bifrost and the Magni?
   
  And I feel like sneaking in the Lyr....what about the Lyr and Modi together?


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





usaudio said:


> I think Schiit needs to address this volume control issue with the Magni.  It greatly reduces the usability of the amp IMHO.  A great product otherwise.


 
  I just purchased my first dedicated amp-Asgard 2 still on back order. I'm debating the Modi/Billfrost or a different brand. Given that my Grados are tolerable straight into my computer HP jack w/ generic soundcard and my computer isn't my main source, the Modi's pricing is pretty hard to resist.
   
  Still, it would be nice to listen to a Modi vs Billfrost w/ an Asg and see if there is a $2-300 difference...choices, choices...
   
  I guess after the HP, amp and upgrading some stereo equipment that I'm purchasing, I'm not rushing to spent hundreds on a DAC...good choice, bad choice? Will I regret saving a few hundred in a year?


----------



## Defiant00

markm1 said:


> I just purchased my first dedicated amp-Asgard 2 still on back order. I'm debating the Modi/Billfrost or a different brand. Given that my Grados are tolerable straight into my computer HP jack w/ generic soundcard and my computer isn't my main source, the Modi's pricing is pretty hard to resist.
> 
> Still, it would be nice to listen to a Modi vs Billfrost w/ an Asg and see if there is a $2-300 difference...choices, choices...
> 
> I guess after the HP, amp and upgrading some stereo equipment that I'm purchasing, I'm not rushing to spent hundreds on a DAC...good choice, bad choice? Will I regret saving a few hundred in a year?




If you're only going to use it with your computer through USB then I'd just go for the Modi. The Bifrost does sound better, but unless you have them side by side you're not going to notice, it's not like the Modi sounds bad.


----------



## Blackshadow

Quote: 





toinfinity said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on pairing up the Asgard and the Modi? Or perhaps the Bifrost and the Magni?
> 
> And I feel like sneaking in the Lyr....what about the Lyr and Modi together?


 
   
   I have an iMac feeding the Modi via USB.  At the moment I have an older (~2005) Total Bithead and a RSA Hornet that I use for amps.  I love the sound of the Hornet, but mainly use it as a travel and office amp.  The Asgard II will become my home amp.  When time and budget allow, I will probably upgrade my Modi next.
   
  I'm curious if anyone else is using the Modi with other Schiit amps?


----------



## Defiant00

Since I found Magni and Asgard to sound the same, I would say Bifrost + Magni should yield better SQ than Modi + Asgard.

Of course, now that Asgard 2 is out it's certainly possible that it is the bigger improvement.

Although as previously stated, honestly, unless you've got a better DAC to put side by side with the Modi I don't think you're going to have any qualms with 'just' the Modi. Bifrost does sound better to me, but for just USB Modi is an excellent deal and is very close to Bifrost.


----------



## Blackshadow

Thanks for the feedback.  Since an iMac has the possibility of optical out, it seems I have a possible upgrade path.  I'm very happy with the Modi compared to my dated Total Bithead.


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





blackshadow said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  Since an iMac has the possibility of optical out, it seems I have a possible upgrade path.  I'm very happy with the Modi compared to my dated Total Bithead.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





blackshadow said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  Since an iMac has the possibility of optical out, it seems I have a possible upgrade path.  I'm very happy with the Modi compared to my dated Total Bithea


 
  ditto on the thanks folks!


----------



## reddragon

a lot of people over here mention having multiple setups, is it wise to do it the way im doing it? i listen more on the go than at home, so a good portable player will be useful. thats why i got my ibasso dx100, it was not exactly cheap for a portable player but i didnt mind, knowing i would use it often. i use it everywhere , both for on the go and at home. for home, if i want later, i can add an amp to it. my whole music library is in my dx100, i do not listen to music from comp. and its easier to turn on my dx100 than turning on my laptop. so do you guys think its wise to do it the way im doing it?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> a lot of people over here mention having multiple setups, is it wise to do it the way im doing it? i listen more on the go than at home, so a good portable player will be useful. thats why i got my ibasso dx100, it was not exactly cheap for a portable player but i didnt mind, knowing i would use it often. i use it everywhere , both for on the go and at home. for home, if i want later, i can add an amp to it. my whole music library is in my dx100, i do not listen to music from comp. and its easier to turn on my dx100 than turning on my laptop. so do you guys think its wise to do it the way im doing it?


 
   
  Since you've got a good portable player and are able to fit your whole music library on it then sure, I'd just use it for everything.
   
  The main argument for a second setup would come from if you wanted to use it to watch stuff or game or something I would think.


----------



## reddragon

defiant00 said:


> Since you've got a good portable player and are able to fit your whole music library on it then sure, I'd just use it for everything.
> 
> The main argument for a second setup would come from if you wanted to use it to watch stuff or game or something I would think.





I know people would disagree with me but when I watch YouTube or play games, I really don't care about sound quality. When I'm playing games, I'm fully concentrated on the game and I don't analyze the sound quality so I'm perfectly fine with my brothers Samsung laptop with its bad internal laptop sound. About watching YouTube, I doub vids on there are recorded well anyway so I don't really bother to have a setup for it


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> I know people would disagree with me but when I watch YouTube or play games, I really don't care about sound quality. When I'm playing games, I'm fully concentrated on the game and I don't analyze the sound quality so I'm perfectly fine with my brothers Samsung laptop with its bad internal laptop sound. About watching YouTube, I doub vids on there are recorded well anyway so I don't really bother to have a setup for it


 
   
  Sounds like you've answered your own question then


----------



## reddragon

defiant00 said:


> Sounds like you've answered your own question then





Well yeah but I also want to point out maybe some people can save some money if they build their systems my way?


----------



## Bananaheadlin

Defiant, have you had any chance to hear the new Asgard 2 thus far? Or perhaps your opinions of the Lyr comparatively too?

Ps: Are you sure you're still not coming to the Winston meet?


----------



## markm1

Are folks enjoying their Modi and Billforst through speakers in addition to HP? I'd be curious if improvement in sound is as apparent through speakers as well as HPs. I would assume a DAC is a DAC......regardless


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> Well yeah but I also want to point out maybe some people can save some money if they build their systems my way?


 
   
  Very true.
   
  Quote: 





bananaheadlin said:


> Defiant, have you had any chance to hear the new Asgard 2 thus far? Or perhaps your opinions of the Lyr comparatively too?
> 
> Ps: Are you sure you're still not coming to the Winston meet?


 
   
  Haven't heard the Asgard 2; I actually jumped off the portable deep end and sold my full-sized setup. With the HD600s and LCD-2s though I actually preferred my Asgard over the Lyr, I seem to in general prefer a more solid state character (and I don't want to get into tubes), and at my listening levels I doubt I'm taking advantage of the Lyr's extra power. I did like the Lyr with the K701 though, since I was able to find some tubes that tamed the treble enough that I was able to enjoy them.
   
  Meets are on hold for me for now as we're expecting our second daughter any day now (wife was due Saturday...still waiting...) and we aren't going to be doing much traveling for a while once she gets here 
   
  Quote: 





markm1 said:


> Are folks enjoying their Modi and Billforst through speakers in addition to HP? I'd be curious if improvement in sound is as apparent through speakers as well as HPs. I would assume a DAC is a DAC......regardless


 
   
  I have heard good things from a number of people about using Bifrost with speakers, as yes, a DAC is a DAC and it isn't specifically designed for headphones.


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Very true.
> 
> 
> Haven't heard the Asgard 2; I actually jumped off the portable deep end and sold my full-sized setup. With the HD600s and LCD-2s though I actually preferred my Asgard over the Lyr, I seem to in general prefer a more solid state character (and I don't want to get into tubes), and at my listening levels I doubt I'm taking advantage of the Lyr's extra power. I did like the Lyr with the K701 though, since I was able to find some tubes that tamed the treble enough that I was able to enjoy them.
> ...


 
  Cool. That's what I figured. I was wondering if the Bilfrost is competitive with other stand alone DACS  you would find marketed to audiophiles. For their price point, I can see they might be a good buy, since a lot of the  DACS run closer to $500-1000.


----------



## xcd1947

Very interesting...
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





markm1 said:


> Cool. That's what I figured. I was wondering if the Bilfrost is competitive with other stand alone DACS  you would find marketed to audiophiles. For their price point, I can see they might be a good buy, since a lot of the  DACS run closer to $500-1000.


 
   
  In general it seems to be quite a well-regarded DAC for the price, for headphones or speakers.


----------



## markm1

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> In general it seems to be quite a well-regarded DAC for the price, for headphones or speakers.


 
  That's what I want to hear


----------



## Bananaheadlin

@Defiant00

Congratulations! The Winston meet wishes you and your wife well.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





bananaheadlin said:


> @Defiant00
> 
> Congratulations! The Winston meet wishes you and your wife well.


 
   
  Haha, thanks!


----------



## greg631

Quote: 





greed said:


> Does anyone know how the Modi DAC, stacks up against the DAC on the Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card? I'm wondering if I should buy both Magni/Modi or just get the Magni and use the DAC on my sound card.


 
   
  Same question here.


----------



## amardeep

hey, i was wondering if anyone had any views on schiit magni + DACportLX, i have read that the DACportLX has better sound than the modi.  I plan to use it with hifiman he-400, and i mainly listen to trance, edm.
   
  Thanks


----------



## Chawanwit

Should I still stick with Modi/Magni or would the Asgard 2/ Modi be better. Read that the Asgard sound almost identical with the Magni and the Bifrost sound just slightly better on the highs, but what about the Asgard 2?


----------



## tothemax

This was a great review. I have been leaning to the
Magni and Modi.To use with my PC. I now have made up
my mind. Thanks


----------



## Blackshadow

I have the Modi feeding an A2 and like the combo well enough.  I find the Modi to be a step up from the line out on my iMac feeding the A2.
   
  I will eventually replace the Modi with another DAC to take advantage of the integer direct mode in Audirvana.  For now, the Modi will do.


----------



## Chawanwit

Any Magni to Asgard 2 comparison?


----------



## Defiant00

I don't think anyone's done that comparison yet.
   
  As far as Magni vs Asgard 2, if you aren't concerned with adjustable gain or pre-outs, and find the Magni's volume control and range good enough then I'd probably just keep it.
   
  Or you can do what I did and buy both and do the comparison for the community (and keep whichever you like more).


----------



## jeremyarntz

I love the rubber band trick! I will be trying that! Thanks for the comparison it was a great read!


----------



## Illbetheone

Is the Modi worth ditching my creative x-Fi for?


----------



## Defiant00

Unfortunately it isn't really possible for me to tell you whether it'll be worth it to you. For me personally if I already had the X-Fi I probably wouldn't bother with the Modi (or any other entry-level DAC), as I don't feel like it's that much of a difference.


----------



## abcoblentz

Defiant00,
   
  I am new to Head-Fi and your review of Magni/Modi helped me decide to get these for my new Senn HD 518. Thank you especially for posting the issue the PYST cables cause, as I saved my money and used some cables I already had with no trouble. They also allow me to place the pair closer to the wall to give me more desk space.


----------



## Defiant00

Glad I could help, I hope you enjoy them!


----------



## Slaughter

Just returned an A2 and picked up an M/M after reading your review. My combo came with some real flexible PYST cables. Looks to be a thinner cable than yours. I didn't do a direct comparison, but the A2 was more spacious sounding, but more laid back in the highs. The M/M was just what I was looking for.


----------



## reddragon

Quote: 





slaughter said:


> Just returned an A2 and picked up an M/M after reading your review. My combo came with some real flexible PYST cables. Looks to be a thinner cable than yours. I didn't do a direct comparison, but the A2 was more spacious sounding, but more laid back in the highs. The M/M was just what I was looking for.


 
   
   
  A2? whats an A2?


----------



## Radioking59

reddragon said:


> A2? whats an A2?




Asgard 2


----------



## jibzilla

.


----------



## Defiant00

slaughter said:


> Just returned an A2 and picked up an M/M after reading your review. My combo came with some real flexible PYST cables. Looks to be a thinner cable than yours. I didn't do a direct comparison, but the A2 was more spacious sounding, but more laid back in the highs. The M/M was just what I was looking for.




Glad to hear the review helped and that you're enjoying your M&M.


----------



## karlsonklam

what is Magni's input impedance?  - (I've got a transformer DAC which needs ~100K)


----------



## Defiant00

You'll probably have to email Schiit to find out.


----------



## karlsonklam

quote from Jason "[size=12.727272033691406px]50K for Magni, 100K for Asgard 2."[/size]


----------



## Frosty3258

Any one know how this might sound with hd598's?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





frosty3258 said:


> Any one know how this might sound with hd598's?


 
   
  While it might sound like a flippant answer, I don't intend it as such when I say it'll sound like the HD598s. The M&M really didn't impart much of a sound of their own on anything that I tried them with, so if you enjoy the HD598 sound signature then you'd probably enjoy them with the M&M, as they'll likely sound very similar, just cleaner, clearer and with more power.


----------



## karlsonklam

are the Asgard II's outputs fixed? - or do they follow the volume pot? - if variable, do the outputs come from the output stage? - a class A SE preamp to drive my Monarchy SM70 would be icing on the cake.  Are any Asgard II owners here using it to drive a power amplifier?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





karlsonklam said:


> are the Asgard II's outputs fixed? - or do they follow the volume pot? - if variable, do the outputs come from the output stage? - a class A SE preamp to drive my Monarchy SM70 would be icing on the cake.  Are any Asgard II owners here using it to drive a power amplifier?


 
   
  They follow the volume pot, but beyond that you've gone beyond what I know.


----------



## karlsonklam

thanks - I just dropped a line to Jason with a few questions - like from where is the RCA-out signal derived?/ line-out output Z?  - seems like it could make a better sounding than average preamp if one sticks to just one source and its quiet enough.  Most of my speakers run in the mid-90's to over a 100dB for one watt in the midrange.


----------



## karlsonklam

reply from Jason  
   
 It's from the output stage.  


> What is the output Z at the RCA-out jacks?


   

 75 ohms
  


> - would it make a good and quiet single source preamp for a Monarchy SM70 amp with higher efficiency speakers?


   

 yes, on low gain


----------



## karlsonklam

how well does the Asgard II's relay work against turn on/off transients? does it mute fast in case of a power brownout.- outage and quick back on as often occurs before the grid goes out?


----------



## Frosty3258

Thanks man, that's really what I'm looking for,i love the 598's and they do benefit firm an amp but the e11 isn't the best pairing for them. They just slightly change The sound Sig. A little less clarity, more bass and it is slightly looser not bad sounding some may prefer it, just not the right sound for me. 



defiant00 said:


> While it might sound like a flippant answer, I don't intend it as such when I say it'll sound like the HD598s. The M&M really didn't impart much of a sound of their own on anything that I tried them with, so if you enjoy the HD598 sound signature then you'd probably enjoy them with the M&M, as they'll likely sound very similar, just cleaner, clearer and with more power.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





karlsonklam said:


> how well does the Asgard II's relay work against turn on/off transients? does it mute fast in case of a power brownout.- outage and quick back on as often occurs before the grid goes out?


 
   
  My Asgard II will be here Friday, so this is going off of my original Asgard (and Magni, and having tried a Lyr), but with the relay there's just a small click/pop through the headphones when it unmutes after you turn it on.
   
  I don't think I had a brownout occur, but I'd assume it'd act the same as when it's turned off.


----------



## karlsonklam

Thanks - how might the new Asgard II pair with stock T50RP?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





karlsonklam said:


> Thanks - how might the new Asgard II pair with stock T50RP?


 
   
  Should be good, although the general advice you'll probably get is that you really should mod them


----------



## reddragon

defiant00 said:


> Should be good, although the general advice you'll probably get is that you really should mod them





You have a t50rp?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> You have a t50rp?


 
   
  No, although I probably eventually will.


----------



## reddragon

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> No, although I probably eventually will.


 
   
   
  what mod are you thinking of if you are going have it modded?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> what mod are you thinking of if you are going have it modded?


 
   
  I'd probably just experiment with it myself.


----------



## reddragon

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> I'd probably just experiment with it myself.


 
   
   
  I see, you have experience in diy?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> I see, you have experience in diy?


 
   
  Not much, but since I'd still have my HD600s there'd be no real urgency to quickly get them right, so I could just take my time and experiment.
   
  With that said, with how hectic my life has been recently I doubt I'll be doing this any time soon


----------



## reddragon

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> Not much, but since I'd still have my HD600s there'd be no real urgency to quickly get them right, so I could just take my time and experiment.
> 
> With that said, with how hectic my life has been recently I doubt I'll be doing this any time soon


 
   
   
  I see... not going to just save time and the trouble of modding and go straight to a turnkey mod?


----------



## Parallax982

I just want to say that after about six months, I'm really happy with my Modi. I've not compared it to a Bifrost or anything else and I run it through powered speakers so there's no need for an amp. But in terms of bang for the buck, the Modi is great. I picked up a second one used for $70. That's great value.
   
  I'm not super picky. My speakers (Audioengine A5+) sound great running MOG through my Macbook with the Modi. I'm sure there are some who would not be satisfied with such a basic setup. But it seems a matter of diminishing returns. To improve the sound, one has to invest a lot of money for small, incremental improvements. A Bifrost might improve the sound quality a bit. I don't know how to quantify such things but let's say 5 percent. To get that small improvement, I'd have to pay four times as much for my DAC. Thus, I just put such things out of my mind and enjoy what I've got.
   
  Before long, the Modi will be surpassed by better products that cost even less. That's inevitable. So I'll wait to upgrade until I can do so at a cost that doesn't break the bank.


----------



## reddragon

Quote: 





parallax982 said:


> I just want to say that after about six months, I'm really happy with my Modi. I've not compared it to a Bifrost or anything else and I run it through powered speakers so there's no need for an amp. But in terms of bang for the buck, the Modi is great. I picked up a second one used for $70. That's great value.
> 
> I'm not super picky. My speakers (Audioengine A5+) sound great running MOG through my Macbook with the Modi. I'm sure there are some who would not be satisfied with such a basic setup. But it seems a matter of diminishing returns. To improve the sound, one has to invest a lot of money for small, incremental improvements. A Bifrost might improve the sound quality a bit. I don't know how to quantify such things but let's say 5 percent. To get that small improvement, I'd have to pay four times as much for my DAC. Thus, I just put such things out of my mind and enjoy what I've got.
> 
> Before long, the Modi will be surpassed by better products that cost even less. That's inevitable. So I'll wait to upgrade until I can do so at a cost that doesn't break the bank.


 
   
   
  that's smart and rational thinking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 *which is not head-fi approved 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





reddragon said:


> I see... not going to just save time and the trouble of modding and go straight to a turnkey mod?


 
   
  Nope, if/when I get a pair it's with the intent to have fun modding and trying things, not necessarily worrying about having a good sounding set of cans (at least initially).
   
  But this is all eventual plans, there's still no telling when I might get around to it really.


----------



## reddragon

defiant00 said:


> Nope, if/when I get a pair it's with the intent to have fun modding and trying things, not necessarily worrying about having a good sounding set of cans (at least initially).
> 
> But this is all eventual plans, there's still no telling when I might get around to it really.





I see, I'm the opposite, I don't diy and I just want a good sounding can. I'm lazy


----------



## pdrm360

Great review Defiant00, thanks!
   
  How are Modi/Asgard 2 in compare with Modi/Magni?


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





pdrm360 said:


> Great review Defiant00, thanks!
> 
> How are Modi/Asgard 2 in compare with Modi/Magni?


 
   
  Thanks!
   
  Unfortunately, I can't give you any useful comparison between Magni and Asgard 2 since I didn't have them both at the same time.


----------



## markm1

Yeah That is something a lot of folks want to know. Best bet is to go to a meet & ask people ahead of time to bring the gear you R interested in My first meet I left my A2 @ home. There was a m/m there not no Asg. I should have brought it but incorrectly assumed it would be too pedestrian.


----------



## peepr

Anyone directly compare magni to lyr with orthos?


----------



## Barry S

peepr said:


> Anyone directly compare magni to lyr with orthos?




I don't think you can generalize with orthos--better to ask about the orthos you have or are interested in. I've compared my LCD2.2 with the Magni, Lyr, and Mjolnir. It sounds fantastic with the Mjolnir, with the forward character of the amp pushing the LCD2 into more neutral territory from warm and dark. The LCD2 sounds good with the Lyr, but I feel like some resolution and imaging is lost compared to the Mjolnir. The LCD2 sounds noticeably worse with the Magni--the synergy between the two seems poor.

I think the HE-500s sound pretty good with the Lyr. Not a big fan of the HE-400s or Mad Dogs--but they seem fine with the Lyr.


----------



## peepr

Gotcha. I get the sense that the OP did not find much difference between the two stacks with the LCD2 because the asgard just isnt enough for the LCD's. Maybe with some D2000's he would hear more difference. Orthos are so damn power hungry people seem to underestimate it.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





peepr said:


> Gotcha. I get the sense that the OP did not find much difference between the two stacks with the LCD2 because the asgard just isnt enough for the LCD's. Maybe with some D2000's he would hear more difference. Orthos are so damn power hungry people seem to underestimate it.


 
   
  Thanks to a fellow head-fier I had the opportunity to try out the Lyr for a number of hours with a variety of tubes and compare it to the Asgard that I had at the time.
   
  For my listening levels (and that's the big qualifier here, as I don't listen very loudly), I actually prefer the Asgard over the Lyr with the LCD-2s. Having gone to meets I've also tried them with a variety of other amps, so I've got a decent handle on how the Asgard works with them and how the LCD-2s scale. So with that said, I strongly disagree that the Asgard isn't enough for the LCD-2s. As with anything, sure, there are even better amps out there; but the Asgard sounds great to me with the LCD-2s, and is even more remarkable considering the price.
   
   
  And in a general sense, while orthos can handle lots of power, I actually think most people *overestimate *how much they 'need.' As a fun experiment at the last meet I tried HE-6 and K1000s (yeah, not orthos, I know) with the M&M stack and even those went surprisingly well. Obviously not an ideal pairing, but I was expecting them to sound bad and they really didn't.


----------



## Jason Stoddard

Quote: 





defiant00 said:


> So with that said, I strongly disagree that the Asgard isn't enough for the LCD-2s. As with anything, sure, there are even better amps out there; but the Asgard sounds great to me with the LCD-2s, and is even more remarkable considering the price.


 
   
  You're in good company. Arnie Nudell, Bascom H. King, and Kavi Alexander (look them up) all use Asgard 2s (that they _purchased_ from us, none of this give-away-so-we-can-say-they-use-it stuff here) with LCD-2s.


----------



## peepr

Maybe the  LCD2's are super efficient, but I hear a big difference when going from Magni to an SX-650 pioneer receiver with both my Mad Dogs and D2000's. I would say D2000's benefit even more. Bass is what improves the most. I am prepping for the Alpha Dog upgrade and want a more endgame amp. Hard to think the Magni can compete with the Lyr which is what you are basically saying.


----------



## peepr

Quote: 





jason stoddard said:


> You're in good company. Arnie Nudell, Bascom H. King, and Kavi Alexander (look them up) all use Asgard 2s (that they _purchased_ from us, none of this give-away-so-we-can-say-they-use-it stuff here) with LCD-2s.


 
   
  lol. Jason please continue to talk me out of spending more money at your site. My student loan balance will thank you.


----------



## Defiant00

Quote: 





peepr said:


> Maybe the  LCD2's are super efficient, but I hear a big difference when going from Magni to an SX-650 pioneer receiver with both my Mad Dogs and D2000's. I would say D2000's benefit even more. Bass is what improves the most. I am prepping for the Alpha Dog upgrade and want a more endgame amp. Hard to think the Magni can compete with the Lyr which is what you are basically saying.


 
   
  It may also be that your receiver has elevated bass; nothing wrong with coloration if you enjoy it.
   
   
  For my sound preferences with my cans, yes, I think the Magni and Lyr are comparable. But a large part of that is that I don't want to tube roll and I like clean solid-state sound. I'm sure there are a lot of other cans that I would prefer the Lyr with, but not necessarily the LCD-2s.


----------



## eac3

Is there really a difference in power ouput between the Asgard 2 and the Magni at 50 Ohms? I have been thinking about upgrading my Mad dogs (or maybe Alpha Dogs ) from the M&M stack to the Bitfrost/A2 stack. I pullled away from tubes altogether due to my music genres, and the fact that tube (rolling) seems to be very expensive.


----------



## Defiant00

eac3 said:


> Is there really a difference in power ouput between the Asgard 2 and the Magni at 50 Ohms? I have been thinking about upgrading my Mad dogs (or maybe Alpha Dogs ) from the M&M stack to the Bitfrost/A2 stack. I pullled away from tubes altogether due to my music genres, and the fact that tube (rolling) seems to be very expensive.


 
  
 No, no difference between the amps for power output. The Bifrost does 2.0v compared to Modi's 1.5 though, so that can make a difference.
  
 If you feel that the M&M don't have enough power for the Mad Dogs then Bifrost + Asgard might not satisfy that for you either; although I've found they have enough power for anything I throw at them.


----------



## eac3

defiant00 said:


> No, no difference between the amps for power output. The Bifrost does 2.0v compared to Modi's 1.5 though, so that can make a difference.
> 
> If you feel that the M&M don't have enough power for the Mad Dogs then Bifrost + Asgard might not satisfy that for you either; although I've found they have enough power for anything I throw at them.


 
  
 I just sometimes feel I can squeeze more potential out of them. It just may be a matter of upgrading the DAC section, but the MM stack was my first venture.


----------



## Defiant00

eac3 said:


> I just sometimes feel I can squeeze more potential out of them. It just may be a matter of upgrading the DAC section, but the MM stack was my first venture.


 
  
 Bifrost should sound better...whether it's worth it to you isn't something I can answer. I like the Asgard more than the Magni, but at least for the original Asgard it was more of a personal preference/feeling and not based off of sound quality. Unfortunately, while I think B&A will sound better, there's no way I can tell you how much better you'll find it or whether it's worth doing.


----------



## eac3

defiant00 said:


> Bifrost should sound better...whether it's worth it to you isn't something I can answer. I like the Asgard more than the Magni, but at least for the original Asgard it was more of a personal preference/feeling and not based off of sound quality. Unfortunately, while I think B&A will sound better, there's no way I can tell you how much better you'll find it or whether it's worth doing.


 
  
 Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it. I may just spend some money on both asgard 2 and the Audio-gd SA-31 amp to decide for myself and see which one I like better (with the Bitfrost).


----------



## antikryst

so hows the MM with the HE-500? thinking of getting the MM soon. then either the HE-500 or SRH1840 (still torn between the two). though im afraid that the MM wont be enough for the HE-500.


----------



## Defiant00

antikryst said:


> so hows the MM with the HE-500? thinking of getting the MM soon. then either the HE-500 or SRH1840 (still torn between the two). though im afraid that the MM wont be enough for the HE-500.


 
  
 It should have more than enough power, but I can't say for sure how it'll fit your listening preferences. You may also want to look at the Vali as an alternative to the Magni.
  
 Personally I'd go HE-500 over the Shures, as I think planars are pretty special.


----------



## tootallmoose

antikryst said:


> so hows the MM with the HE-500? thinking of getting the MM soon. then either the HE-500 or SRH1840 (still torn between the two). though im afraid that the MM wont be enough for the HE-500.


 
 I had this combo for a while, it felt a little underwhelming to me.  I wound up finding a really good deal on Lyr and the extra power made a world of difference but I never could find a pair of tubes that sounded quite right to me.  I've also tried the HE-500 with a Little Dot MkIII and a head room micro amp, neither of witch seem quite up to the task.  Right now I'm leaning towards a HPA V100.
  
 EDIT: Go for the HE-500 if you haven't experienced planar magnetics yet.  It will blow your mind.


----------



## antikryst

Tried the HE500 and I loved it. Found it a bit dark though. Will try the Shure in 2 weeks. 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## antikryst

I like the look of the schiit stacks. Probably going MM. If I go bifrost asgard that means no new headphones and I'll be using the schiits with my SRH940.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## tootallmoose

antikryst said:


> I like the look of the schiit stacks. Probably going MM. If I go bifrost asgard that means no new headphones and I'll be using the schiits with my SRH940.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


 
 That's not a terrible thing.  I have the 940 as well and why they aren't the best they're definitely good enough that you will be able to appreciate the difference between the two stacks and give you time to look around/save money for an even better pair of cans.


----------



## antikryst

tootallmoose said:


> antikryst said:
> 
> 
> > I like the look of the schiit stacks. Probably going MM. If I go bifrost asgard that means no new headphones and I'll be using the schiits with my SRH940.
> ...




What worries me about that is that going bifrost asgard costs more haha. And that I'll probably buy new headphones before I should. 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## jeffbear7

Would the modi/magni combo drive Mad Dogs well? Or is there some alternative in the same budget to think about?


----------



## Parallax982

This may be just a bit off topic, but after quite some time with my Modi, which I run through AudioEngine A5+ speakers (mostly streaming MOG), I'm very happy with my choice. Really glad I didn't go for a lesser "starter" DAC (like the AE D1). I had thought for a while of upgrading to the Bifrost but the longer I sat with it, the less important that felt. People say the Bifrost sounds a bit better but I'm not sure I would notice the difference and it doesn't feel important enough to spend $400 when I'm completely satisfied with what I have.
  
 I know this isn't the norm on an audiophile site and I post it just to offer a perspective not heard everyday.


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## Defiant00

jeffbear7 said:


> Would the modi/magni combo drive Mad Dogs well? Or is there some alternative in the same budget to think about?


 
  
 The M&M should provide more than enough power, but as usual I can't say for sure if you'll prefer the sound signature over other potential options.
  
 You may want to wait another week or two and consider the Schiit Vali as well when it's officially released.


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## dailydoseofdaly

Defiant I noticed you have an Asgard2 now in your sig, do you think you would be able to identify it in a blind test easier against the magni, or would your initial tests still be pretty accurate.

My bad if you discussed this in the thread and I over looked it.


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## Defiant00

Hey! Haven't talked with you in a while.
  
 Unfortunately, I don't really know, as it was months in between when I had the Magni and A2. I suspect I might be able to hear a little difference, but I'd have to have a Magni again to actually verify that.


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## dailydoseofdaly

That's cool, didn't know if you still had both.

Your always welcome to compare to mojo/gung if your headed through town


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## Defiant00

When next I'm up that way I'll definitely want to hear them


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## chili dude96

I have a question. I am looking into getting a DAC or an amp or both for my Audio Technica A900Xs. They need very little power and my IEMs don't need much power either. So do I need to buy both the magni and the modi or would I be ok with just the modi?


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## Defiant00

chili dude96 said:


> I have a question. I am looking into getting a DAC or an amp or both for my Audio Technica A900Xs. They need very little power and my IEMs don't need much power either. So do I need to buy both the magni and the modi or would I be ok with just the modi?


 
  
 You need an amp of some sort; while you could get an adapter that would let you hook your ATs up directly to the Modi, due to electrical properties that I don't claim to understand it would sound horrible as the output isn't meant to drive headphones.


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## hydrans5

Has anyone ever paired the Asgard 2 with the Modi? Are there any downsides or negative effects of pairing these? For me, I want the ability to drive the adam audio F5s and my headphones(therefore Asgard 2) but i think its a stretch to spend 5X more for a fully loaded bifrost for a DAC. Just wondering if anyone is using the Asgard 2 and Modi together and their opinion on how it sounds. thanks!


----------



## Defiant00

hydrans5 said:


> Has anyone ever paired the Asgard 2 with the Modi? Are there any downsides or negative effects of pairing these? For me, I want the ability to drive the adam audio F5s and my headphones(therefore Asgard 2) but i think its a stretch to spend 5X more for a fully loaded bifrost for a DAC. Just wondering if anyone is using the Asgard 2 and Modi together and their opinion on how it sounds. thanks!


 
  
 That's what I'm using now and it's great if you only need USB. The Bifrost is a bit better, but if you don't need coax/optical inputs or 24/192 then the Modi is an excellent place to start.


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## hydrans5

From your original post on the pictures i guess they were smart enough to make the modi chassis small enough so it doesnt cover the heat vents on the asgard 2 right? no problems stacking the modi on top of the asgard 2 and using the RCA PYST cables?
  
  
 What kind of sources are people using that they need coax/optical? TV? record players?
  
 I breezed through the thread but can you explain the quality difference between let's say 80% max comp volume and 20% on your amp vs 20% comp volume and 80% on your amp? Which is better, why and what happens that its better?
  
 Anyone know if the asgard 2 will stay at 250 when the vali comes in at 120? If tubes are all the rage im surprised that the hybrid vali comes in at half the price of the asgard 2....


----------



## Defiant00

hydrans5 said:


> From your original post on the pictures i guess they were smart enough to make the modi chassis small enough so it doesnt cover the heat vents on the asgard 2 right? no problems stacking the modi on top of the asgard 2 and using the RCA PYST cables?
> 
> 
> What kind of sources are people using that they need coax/optical? TV? record players?
> ...


 
  
 Yes, you could comfortably put the Modi on the far left side of the A2 without covering the vents. I wouldn't expect the heat from the A2 to be a problem, but personally I've got the A2 on a stand and the Modi below it just to make sure. I'd recommend shooting Schiit an email before leaving the A2 on for hours with the Modi on top if it just to make sure.
  
 Other inputs...well, a lot of people here feel that those are "better quality" than USB (although personally I think Schiit's USB is quite good). Most computers and at least a reasonable number of laptops have optical. Also, yes, as you guessed, dedicated source components like CD players (not vinyl though since it's already analog).
  
 The easiest way to get the best quality is 100% computer volume and just use the amp's volume control. However, if you run your DAC at a higher bit rate than your files (for example, Modi set to 24 bit and you're playing 16 bit FLACs) then you actually have 8 bits of digital volume before you start losing any actual data (if both are at 16 bit then turning it down digitally is actually discarding audio data). Whether that's a good idea is almost entirely dependent on the noise floor of your DAC, so it's not the easiest thing to issue a blanket statement about. In general though, the A2's volume control is good enough that you should just leave digital volume at 100% and use the A2's volume.
  
 Going off of all the pricing history we have on Schiit, the A2 is almost guaranteed to stay at the same price. A2 is significantly more versatile than the Vali; it can drive many more types of headphones (IEMs, etc), has a much lower noise floor, puts out more power, and can be used as a pre-amp.
  
 With that said, I definitely intend to try the Vali at some point since it seems like it'd be a great fit for my HD600s.


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## hydrans5

Hey thanks for taking the time to answer my questions... just a few more if you dont mind: 
  
 Talked to schiit and they seem to think stacking modi on A2 for long periods of time is no big deal. Just hope they say that if/when i have a warranty problem haha.
  
 I understand what youre saying but is there any drawback to run modi at 24 bit while playing 16 bit FLACs and leaving 100% comp volume and using A2 volume control? or is there just a drawback when you run modi at 16 while playing 16 bit FLACs and you don't have comp volume at 100%? 
  
 In the same vain, how about when im using an aux cable in my car with an iphone? I guess i would want to keep my iphone at 100% and using the stereo to control how much output i want?
  
 So as i mentioned i'm thinking about getting the Adam Audio F5s which are powered monitors. I'm going from usb to modi to asgard 2 to F5s. I guess Asgard 2 is helping to preamp the signal before it picks up noise from the modi to the F5s? Is the quality going to be that much better than if i go from modi straight to the F5s? I'm guessing the Asgard 2  can drive passive speakers as well?


----------



## Defiant00

hydrans5 said:


> Hey thanks for taking the time to answer my questions... just a few more if you dont mind:
> 
> Talked to schiit and they seem to think stacking modi on A2 for long periods of time is no big deal. Just hope they say that if/when i have a warranty problem haha.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No problem.
  
 Modi in 24 bit with 16 bit music and comp at 100% should be the best quality (16 bit music to 24 bit dac is bit perfect,  just with an extra 8 bits of padding). Only actual potential 'drawback' is if it's 16 bit Modi and 16 bit music with comp < 100% (and even that's theoretical, since most people probably wouldn't hear the difference during normal listening). Still, the first scenario would be the way to go unless there's some reason to have your comp at < 100%.
  
 With your car and iPhone...since the iPhone is amping it first then it _might_ be better to turn it up all the way and _might _be better a little below full volume, but that depends on if the iPhone clips when turned up all the way so I can't really give you a guaranteed accurate answer...for that I'd just try it both ways to see what sounds better to you.
  
 If you're only going to be using the powered monitors (and don't mind using their volume control) then you can go Modi directly to the F5s. Having the A2 in the chain just means you have a separate volume control if that's more convenient. The A2 can't drive passive speakers to any useful degree, the preamp functionality is just to run into powered monitors or a proper speaker amp.


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## hydrans5

So we're talking about the computer's master volume right? What about like application volumes like itunes? How does that affect quality?
  
 so the only advantage to having the A2 in the chain is that you have a separate volume control?


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## Defiant00

hydrans5 said:


> So we're talking about the computer's master volume right? What about like application volumes like itunes? How does that affect quality?
> 
> so the only advantage to having the A2 in the chain is that you have a separate volume control?


 
  
 For best quality, everything on the computer should be at 100% volume (any/all programs and master volume as well). Otherwise you're going to be throwing away the lowest level audio information (and as previously stated, no guarantee you'd be able to tell a difference or not, but you are technically throwing away data if it's a 16 bit file and the DAC's set to 16 bit).
  
 With the A2, yes, that's basically it. If it was something like the Lyr then you'd get some amount of tube sound out of it, but not the A2.


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## hydrans5

Just ordered Asgard 2 MODI and RCA PYST cables... Hope it doesn't take too long to ship out... 
  
 Does anyone really think that the USB Male A to Male B cable can affect audio quality?
  
 Is there a specific thread that discusses and has a good but brief list of good headphones for certain amp/dac pairings? obviously im interested in what headphones are generally accepted to be good for the Asgard 2/Modi pairing. Anyone know if the Senn HD700 or the Beyerdynamic T70s  are good for this pairing? Or is there a good thread to look through for these answers?


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## dailydoseofdaly

hydrans5 said:


> Just ordered Asgard 2 MODI and RCA PYST cables... Hope it doesn't take too long to ship out...
> 
> Does anyone really think that the USB Male A to Male B cable can affect audio quality?
> 
> Is there a specific thread that discusses and has a good but brief list of good headphones for certain amp/dac pairings? obviously im interested in what headphones are generally accepted to be good for the Asgard 2/Modi pairing. Anyone know if the Senn HD700 or the Beyerdynamic T70s  are good for this pairing? Or is there a good thread to look through for these answers?


 
  
 congrats man
  
 i dont see how male a to male b would negatively impact sound quality at all. A lot of pro gear i have used has male a to b, so the music your listening to might have used that very cable.
  
 there isnt really a thread like that, you just kinda have to dig around, plus one persons opinion is so subjective that a seemingly easy thread like hp+amp+dac=good would quickly turn to chaos haha. However if you want to get some opinions and recommendations for cans for your combo i suggest going here http://www.head-fi.org/t/601151/schiit-owners-unite


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## hydrans5

Nah for the USB i mean is there any noticeable difference between Schiits PYST usb male a to b and monoprices a to b. I picked up the RCA PYST because the cable lengths exact for stacking them not that i'm expecting them to be better than monoprice RCA but i couldn't really justify getting the schiit USB PYST cables so i'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on that.
  
 I understand it's subjective but it does seem like there are a few technical components to people deciding what pairs well with certain types of headphones right? like being able to drive orthos and stuff like that?


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## dailydoseofdaly

There probably isn't a noticeable sound difference, more than likely pyst USB are just a better quality cable and might last longer than the monoprice. I know schiit uses straight wire for their pyst ic's which are quality wire, so maybe they do with the usb cable as well, that would justify the price difference

yeah for sure,I'll use schiit as the example just because of the thread. The schiit Valhalla is a otl type amp so it delivers high voltages into high impedance cans(think beyer 300/600ohm cans) however it can't produce the current needed for low efficient orthos like the lyr. That's not to say that your Asgard won't be able to be used with orthos or cans with higher imps, from my experience it's a good all around amp but depending on what direction you go in the hobby you can suit the amp to your cans needs


----------



## Frosty3258

I





parallax982 said:


> This may be just a bit off topic, but after quite some time with my Modi, which I run through AudioEngine A5+ speakers (mostly streaming MOG), I'm very happy with my choice. Really glad I didn't go for a lesser "starter" DAC (like the AE D1). I had thought for a while of upgrading to the Bifrost but the longer I sat with it, the less important that felt. People say the Bifrost sounds a bit better but I'm not sure I would notice the difference and it doesn't feel important enough to spend $400 when I'm completely satisfied with what I have.
> 
> I know this isn't the norm on an audiophile site and I post it just to offer a perspective not heard everyday.




I feel the same way, had the m50 as my first can now i am on the hd598 and satisfied. I am getting a ha540 tube amp though.


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## LunarBear

Thank you so much for this fantastic review!
  
 I'm rather new to the audiophile headphones scene, and for the last few weeks I researched extensively what Headphone/Amp/DAC combo I was going to buy to listen to EDM. I settled for the HE-400 which seems to be exactly what I'm looking for with my current budget, but didn't know what Headamp I was going to take. I was thinking about the Lyr (yes, it's a bit overkill for HE-400 but it would have been an investment for the future), then the Vali which has just been released today... But I don't think I want a tube amp for my first amp, as good as it may be. I'd like to try a more neutral, solid state sound, without any of the potential issues of the tube amps (microphonics, limited lifespan, need to shut them down when you don't use them...). I live in Europe, and sending back an amp to Schiit if I have a problem with it would be pretty difficult/long, too.
  
 Soooooo, I finally read your review and now I'm dead set on the Modi/Magni combo. The form factor is a huge plus, too: they're nice looking, stack perfectly, and will have a really small footprint on my desk. Sound quality should be more than enough for a first DAC/amp with a HE-400. And the price point is just amazing (even with the duty fees to Europe...).
  
 Then I'll upgrade in the near future to a LCD-2 when I'll have the necessary finances.
  
 Thanks again!


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## Defiant00

lunarbear said:


> Thank you so much for this fantastic review!
> 
> I'm rather new to the audiophile headphones scene, and for the last few weeks I researched extensively what Headphone/Amp/DAC combo I was going to buy to listen to EDM. I settled for the HE-400 which seems to be exactly what I'm looking for with my current budget, but didn't know what Headamp I was going to take. I was thinking about the Lyr (yes, it's a bit overkill for HE-400 but it would have been an investment for the future), then the Vali which has just been released today... But I don't think I want a tube amp for my first amp, as good as it may be. I'd like to try a more neutral, solid state sound, without any of the potential issues of the tube amps (microphonics, limited lifespan, need to shut them down when you don't use them...). I live in Europe, and sending back an amp to Schiit if I have a problem with it would be pretty difficult/long, too.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad I could help, the M&M are an excellent combo.


----------



## ben_r_

Can anyone tell me, does Schiit charge sales tax for California?


----------



## Niteblooded

Would you recommend the M&M for higher impedance cans like 250 and 600, or would it be better to step up to B&A (or Valhalla) combo at that point?
  
 Or maybe the Vali/Modi combo to keep cost down and ensure non-planar headphones are driven with enough power?
  
 Looking for a Amp/DAC combo to drive primarily Beyerdynamic headphones.   I like the price point of the M&M but seems like most are going this route with low impedance cans.


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## stupidmop

I know question wasn't for me but maybe I can help? 250 Yes. 600 No. I like my 770s and 990s with tubes, just personal pref. Mine are 250s and the greatest thing that I ever did was build a bottlehead crack. Never heard sound this good before but IMO


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## tuamtuem

This is an awesome review! I love the fact that your comparison was based on what did you REALLY hear from these two stacks regardless of their specs/prices. I'm using the Vali/Modi and I was wondering how better the sound quality would be if I upgraded them to Asgard2/Bifrost (or LYR2/Bifrost).
  
 Clearly, I will definitely be using this cute Schiits for a while  Thanks for such a great review.


----------



## Defiant00

tuamtuem said:


> This is an awesome review! I love the fact that your comparison was based on what did you REALLY hear from these two stacks regardless of their specs/prices. I'm using the Vali/Modi and I was wondering how better the sound quality would be if I upgraded them to Asgard2/Bifrost (or LYR2/Bifrost).
> 
> Clearly, I will definitely be using this cute Schiits for a while  Thanks for such a great review.


 
  
 Glad I could help! It wasn't a perfect test, but it made it pretty clear to me that there weren't huge differences at least 
  
 From what I've heard secondhand, you're probably more likely to benefit from a DAC upgrade than an amp, as people really seem to like the Vali (I haven't heard one yet, but it'll probably be my next purchase).


----------



## StanD

defiant00 said:


> Glad I could help! It wasn't a perfect test, but it made it pretty clear to me that there weren't huge differences at least
> 
> From what I've heard secondhand, you're probably more likely to benefit from a DAC upgrade than an amp, as people really seem to like the Vali (I haven't heard one yet, but it'll probably be my next purchase).


 
 You're going to have to spend much more than that (Vali) to help the Economic Recovery.


----------



## -Bankai

Hello, new around here. I am considering the M&M but along with this I will probably get AKG k712 pro headphones and HiVi Swan M10 speakers. Not sure when, as of yet. Anyways, with the M&M I will be going optical instead of USB. should i plug speakers into pc, or into the amp? I've been trying to read online about what pre-amps do, but it's mind boggling! Is this how I would hook up speakers to the amp, is by pre-amp outputs? if that IS the case, then I wouldn't mind getting the A2 to have that option. I'm also guessing the SQ from speakers would benefit from going this route.


----------



## Defiant00

-bankai said:


> Hello, new around here. I am considering the M&M but along with this I will probably get AKG k712 pro headphones and HiVi Swan M10 speakers. Not sure when, as of yet. Anyways, with the M&M I will be going optical instead of USB. should i plug speakers into pc, or into the amp? I've been trying to read online about what pre-amps do, but it's mind boggling! Is this how I would hook up speakers to the amp, is by pre-amp outputs? if that IS the case, then I wouldn't mind getting the A2 to have that option. I'm also guessing the SQ from speakers would benefit from going this route.


 
  
 From what I can tell the M10 is a powered speaker system, so my recommendations are going to be assuming that that is the case.
  
 A pre-amp is a separate component between the source (DAC, computer, iPod, etc.) and your main amplifier (in this case, the one built into the speakers). This is useful when your amp doesn't have a volume control of its own (or it isn't easy to reach or something), but as far as I'm aware that's the main point.
  
 So, if you got the M&M and the M10 speakers then you'd probably want to hook the speakers directly up to the Modi (so yes, you'd need to switch the cables around whenever you wanted to listen to headphones through the Magni). You'd then use the volume control on the speakers.
  
 Now, if you got the A2 instead then what you can do is have Modi to A2 all the time, and the speakers hooked up to the pre-amp outs. That way the A2's volume control affects the volume to the speakers (and it also means you'll need the A2 on to listen to them). I also believe the A2 mutes the pre-amp outs when a headphone is connected, so when you want to listen to headphones you don't have to do anything beyond plugging them in.
  
 It is more versatile, but it is also $150 more. Personally I prefer the A2, but the M&M is quite a good stack as well.


----------



## -Bankai

main focus would be, what will take advantage of the schiit DAC?

anyways, will get the SYS regardless of the outcome. would be pretty cool to add another amp in the future, maybe like a tube amp with a nicely paired HP. the SYS would take care of that switch  can also do A/B tests if i really wanted to get serious about it. anywho, thanks for the reply


----------



## Suichan

Hi all,
  
 First off, just a quick headsup that I'm new to Head-Fi (first post!) and absolutely brand-spanking-new to the Audiophile world in general so apologies for any stupid questions etc while I figure out all the ins and outs of everything .
  
 Summary - in short, I'm trying to figure out:
 * If the Magni/Modi is "right" for me - whether it'd suit my headphones, setup, etc
 * Whether I could/should pair the Magni amp with a higher-end DAC (such as Bifrost) instead - whether that would yield little return over the Modi, etc
 * If there are other, better options for me out there.
  
 All my main questions are at the bottom of the post, so scroll there for a quick list if you wish 
  
 So - a little more detail.
  
 I'm actually in a weird place with music. I'm sure most of you have huge music collections, probably in FLAC or similar, likely loads of CDs and/or vinyl, and/or a large iTunes library etc. I'm sure most people have, tbh - but as I say, I'm in a slightly weird place right now. I didn't really get into music at all until I was in my early teens, and having had no real musical influence growing up, most of that was the typical top 40s stuff of the day - Britney Spears and Busted and all that kind of cheesy pop stuff!
  
 As I got older I moved on / away from that music.. But due to my living situation and an ongoing lack of people around me listening to / recommending music, coupled with my focus in other areas, I never really picked up new ("new" new, or old new, if that makes any sense) bands, singers, genres, whatever. I dabbled a little in Dance/Trance/Electronic, and a bit of Pop/Rock stuff, but never really built a concrete music collection outside of a few tracks. Back in "the day" I had Tapes and CDs of the bands that I listened to but over time they dwindled, got lost, damaged or sold and eventually I ripped the last few (to not-especially-high-bitrate MP3 no less!) into digital format in an effort to go totally digital.
  
 So that's where I'm actually currently at - just under 4 gigs of not-amazing MP3 and no real idea of where to go from here in terms of discovering new music that I may like. Sorry for the long ramble about all this, and it's really not relevant to this post at all, except to answer the question of my sources, or what music I currently listen to - at the moment, not much at all, really. I've actually started coming "back" to music in probably the wrong way - buying gear and trying to figure out the music itself after that!
  
 However that's not the only thing making sounds - aside from the obvious Windows sounds I'm a bit of a gamer, so tend to use my various output options for gaming a fair bit (sometimes both at the same time, if the game soundtrack leaves something to be desired!). I'm not a competitive or hardcore gamer by any means so I don't really need or worry about things like super-accurate footstep locations etc. My game collection is pretty broad including FPS, RTS, MMORPG, RPG / Action RPG, and all the less-easy-to-categorise. Let me throw a few names out there, off the top of my head - Half Life (and derivatives - CS, TF, etc), Unreal Tournament, Mass Effect, Starcraft, WoW, Minecraft, Gone Home, FTL, etc etc etc (the list goes on but I don't have Steam open right now and don't want to bore anyone to tears!)
  
 All my music playing happens through my computer - I don't have a CD player, turntable, radio, whatever. Just my PC - it's a laptop, so no fancy sound card, and as it happens the onboard sound chip crapped out on me so I grabbed an emergency £1 USB Chinese eBay sound card for my laptop, so I could at least hear _something_. And you know, for a super, super cheap little dongle that is literally falling apart and I had crammed in my IT bag for years, it's not _terrible _for the music that I currently have, although of course not ideal.
  
 So, gear - back in the day, I used to just buy Sony or Panasonic circumaural headphones from Argos or similar, the £20-£30 typical cheap stuff, which always did the job for me on my low-fi players (Walkmen and such). More recently, I've always been a fan of Sennheiser, not really sure why and honestly it's probably something someone told me once or an impression I got from somewhere but it's led to me focussing on Senn stuff whenever I've bought headphones in the recent past.
  
 Currently, I have a set of Sennheiser RS 180 (I love wireless as it lets me move around my desk/house without getting tangled, although I appreciate there is generally a respective price jump and quality drop because of this. Also, I had a set of Senn wireless headphones before (I forget the exact model), and the wireless range on those were truly supurb, whereas these drop out over much shorter distances (I assume due to something like the old ones using a mostly unused wireless frequency, whereas these ones are on the 2.4Ghz band, possibly? I hear that the range on the RS220 are even worse)) which I use more than my speakers, so up until recently they would have been my main transducers.
  
 Once the sound card in my laptop crapped out and I had to get the new "sound card" (I use that term loosely!) I decided to also pick up a set of half-decent (for PC) speakers as well - Creative GigaWorks T40 - and those are now my main speakers. Currently my time spent on headphones/speakers is about 50/50.
  
 For travel (iPod classic) I also picked up a set of Sennheiser ie8 earphones a few years back - that was my first serious purchase in the audio world and I have to say, they really are lovely - BUT - I find that ear canal 'phones cause my ears to get quite painful after an hour or so, and end up feeling bruised for quite a while after I use them, so they mostly get confined to their case unless I really _have _to be portable and have music.
  
 Sennheiser HD 598 - I've had my eye on these for quite a while, constantly debating whether to start "small" or just say screw it and save up for the HD800, but sense and a realisation that my source, Amp, DAC, and everything else would screw me over for anything that high end made me see sense and I finally decided to take the plunge on the 598s a couple of weeks ago. They look beautiful, feel great on the head, but have mostly been sitting unused since I don't really have anything decent to drive them at the moment.
  
 Sennheiser HD 380 - My job involves a small amount of video editing on another PC, nothing drastic but I had nothing to fit the bill at the time I bought these (about 6 months ago) for playing sound at all, so I plumped for these. Great sound isolation (which is mainly what I needed) but they clamp my head like they're trying to eat it, so I don't use them except for "work".
  
 In terms of players, I have an iPod classic (mainly for work, but I do get to use it for personal stuff on occasion), and iPod nano (purely for fun and "out and about"), and of course my PC - I usually use Media Player Classic, with VLC for the occasional FLACs. I have a little experience of Winamp from years back but always happy to take new player recommendations .
  
  
  
 So yeah, that's me at the moment. Obviously, I need some kind of Amp/DAC. When I first started doing research, FiiO popped up and were my #1 choice for a while, but after coming across a few threads over here a while back I saw people recommending Schiit, and I've been kinda hooked on the idea ever since.
  
 I'm pretty certain that the amp, if Schiit, would have to be the Magni for one simple reason - it already gets REALLY FREAKING HOT in my room, and adding another 40-45° radiator to the mix (according to their FAQ) just isn't going to fly. Anything I buy needs to run cool, or my laptop is in danger of melting and my hair catching on fire, haha!
 I can't find any indication on whether their DACs run hot as well (I'm a total newbie to Amps and DACs so forgive me if this is a stupid question), so if this is the case it looks like it'll have to be the Magni+Modi.
  
 That said, I can't actually see anything saying the typical running temperature of either the Magni or Modi - can any owners out there chime in about this? Also, can any Bifrost owners chime in on the running temps of that device?
  
 Aside from temperature, what I really need to figure out is:
  
 * Will the Magni/Modi power the HD598s ok? What about my speakers?
 * If not, would upgrading to the Bifrost help?
 * Is it useful to pair the Bifrost with the Magni, or would there be no increase in power/performance/whatever without the equivalent jump in Amp upgrade?
 * How would the Magni/Modi likely suit my needs (music/gaming)
 * How would the Modi likely compare with the Bifrost for my needs (music/gaming)
 * Are my headphones a terrible choice for my current sources (music) / needs (music/gaming)
 * If so, which headphones would you recommend for my situation?
 * If the Schiit stuff would not suit me, what Amp / DAC would you recommend for someone in my situation? I quite liked the idea of the FiiO stuff a while back also...
  
 Bear in mind that my current audio sources are MP3s and games, although as I get into music I'm hoping to mostly build up a collection of FLACs/other lossless.
  
 Also - budget. I don't have a fixed budget per se, but I'm certainly not made of money, and whilst I can dream of HD800s and a Ragnarok/Yggdrasil that sure ain't gonna happen any time soon. From my local UK distributor of Schiit (Electromod), the Magni/Modi and PYST cables (RCA & USB) all together comes to about £205 IIRC, which is a very nice price. I can certainly stretch to the Bifrost, but I don't want to waste money if I wouldn't see an improvement - after all, I'm no audiophile - yet!!
  
 Apologies for the (probably unnecessarily) long post, thank you muchly for reading and I would appreciate any advice that I can get . Any questions welcome, and apologies for my noob-ness.
  
 Thanks again!


----------



## Defiant00

Responses in *bold*.
  
 Quote:


suichan said:


> <snip>
> 
> I'm pretty certain that the amp, if Schiit, would have to be the Magni for one simple reason - it already gets REALLY FREAKING HOT in my room, and adding another 40-45° radiator to the mix (according to their FAQ) just isn't going to fly. Anything I buy needs to run cool, or my laptop is in danger of melting and my hair catching on fire, haha!
> I can't find any indication on whether their DACs run hot as well (I'm a total newbie to Amps and DACs so forgive me if this is a stupid question), so if this is the case it looks like it'll have to be the Magni+Modi.
> ...


----------



## Suichan

Thanks Defiant00 - lots of good info there and that echos what I was thinking re: the Magni/Modi. The FiiO stuff is nice but I've heard a lot of good things on this forum about Schiit so I think it's worth a go, especially for £200. I'll report back if I have any questions etc but for now just to say thank you for the advice and such . Oh, and love your avatar too


----------



## Defiant00

No problem, glad I could help; and if you do run into any further issues or questions I'm sure I (or someone else on the forum) will be able to help.


----------



## StanD

defiant00 said:


> No problem, glad I could help; and if you do run into any further issues or questions I'm sure I (or someone else on the forum) will be able to help.


 
 Good answers. I will say that the Bifrost USB Gen 2 interface and drivers are superb. Will everyone hear much of a difference above a Modi, that depends on the person's experience and their headphones. Will the difference be earth shattering with a DAC, IMO nope, unless one bought a real loser which the Modi is not. I always say as you just said, "Headphones make the biggest difference." Some folks will spend thousands on a DAC, all I can say that it's good for the economy not one's wallet.
 If you have a good PC setup getting quality audio from USB is not hard to achieve, One of my setups uses a small Windoze 8 laptop with touch screen to drive my Bifrost via USB and it is superb.
 The difference between 2V and 1,5V is about 2.5 dB, not very large. In the case of the Magni, which has a voltage gain of 5 would suggest about 1.75W into a 32 Ohm set of cans. That's more than the Magni's 1.2 W spec so the Modi's output level shouldn't be  issue. So nobody's going to turn the volume knob all the way up as for most cans, 1.2 W is awfully loud, even if that's for the expectations for peak headroom.


----------



## Destroysall

Great review, Defiant. I have a question though, and I do hope for some help in this. I currently use Beyerdynamic DT 990/600 ohm headphones powered by the HiFiMAN EF2a and the FiiO E10. I wanted originally to sell or trade both in hopes for the Schiit Magni and Modi combo since I thought it would be an upgrade. Plus the Magni can properly power the DT990 whereas the EF2a cannot (it's highest ohm impedance rating is 300 ohms and it also has very hi-gain). However, I thought about jumping straight to the Bifrost (Non-USB - No uber upgrades) and perhaps even something like the Valhalla. Would you find this setup much more practical for my headphones over the Magni and Modi combo, or should I just opt for the Magni and Modi? I know the price gaps are large, but I'm not sure how to justify either combos.
  
 Cheers,
 Chris


----------



## Defiant00

destroysall said:


> Great review, Defiant. I have a question though, and I do hope for some help in this. I currently use Beyerdynamic DT 990/600 ohm headphones powered by the HiFiMAN EF2a and the FiiO E10. I wanted originally to sell or trade both in hopes for the Schiit Magni and Modi combo since I thought it would be an upgrade. Plus the Magni can properly power the DT990 whereas the EF2a cannot (it's highest ohm impedance rating is 300 ohms and it also has very hi-gain). However, I thought about jumping straight to the Bifrost (Non-USB - No uber upgrades) and perhaps even something like the Valhalla. Would you find this setup much more practical for my headphones over the Magni and Modi combo, or should I just opt for the Magni and Modi? I know the price gaps are large, but I'm not sure how to justify either combos.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris


 
  
 Unfortunately, I can make a few general statements but can't really answer those questions for you. The Magni and Modi should drive your DT990 just fine, although being the 600 ohm version I believe the Valhalla is also very highly regarded (but I haven't heard the Valhalla or your cans, so this is all second hand information). As far as Bifrost vs Modi; that's entirely up to you and your wallet. Yeah it's an improvement, but is it worth it? Personally, if there was another set of cans I also wanted to try I'd get a Modi + Headphones over a Bifrost. But at the same time, if an extra $250 isn't a big deal then sure, go ahead (as if you need my permission, but you get the idea).
  
 If it was my money, if all my cans were high impedance (say, your DT990s and my HD600s) and I liked the idea of tubes, I'd probably go Valhalla 2 + Modi. I do think the Valhalla should make a pretty noticeable difference, but at least personally I don't immediately notice that big of a difference between DACs, so that's where my money would go.
  
 Hope that helps!


----------



## Destroysall

defiant00 said:


> If it was my money, if all my cans were high impedance (say, your DT990s and my HD600s) and I liked the idea of tubes, I'd probably go Valhalla 2 + Modi. I do think the Valhalla should make a pretty noticeable difference, but at least personally I don't immediately notice that big of a difference between DACs, so that's where my money would go.


 
 You make an excellent point here. I think I'll opt for this route. Thank you so much!


----------



## Defiant00

destroysall said:


> You make an excellent point here. I think I'll opt for this route. Thank you so much!


 
  
 No problem, I hope you enjoy them!


----------



## trick

Wow Great thread! I wish I had seen this before buying a new amp. People get so excited on here, its hard to not want more gear. Threads like these need to be posted on the front page so we can save some people's wallets.


----------



## StanD

trick said:


> Wow Great thread! I wish I had seen this before buying a new amp. People get so excited on here, its hard to not want more gear. Threads like these need to be posted on the front page so we can save some people's wallets.


 
 Audio gear is a dangerous journey for one's wallet, like buying a hot dog at Disney.


----------



## ben_r_

trick said:


> Wow Great thread! I wish I had seen this before buying a new amp. People get so excited on here, its hard to not want more gear. Threads like these need to be posted on the front page so we can save some people's wallets.


 

 Ha well considering Head-Fi makes money off of manufacturers advertising here (and other ways) Im sure they wouldnt want to support anything that shows giving manufactuers more money for "upgrades" can be not worth it.


----------



## rovopio

this thread is specifically extremely useful for me, thanks a lot for the time spent on doing it.
 it really helped.


----------



## MarcBSC

Good morning,
  
 Is the Magni 2 / Modi 2 enough for an HE-560 or should I look for a AMP/DAC with more power?
 I like the look of the Schiit products, but don't know which is the 'good enough' for an HE-560.


----------



## StanD

marcbsc said:


> Good morning,
> 
> Is the Magni 2 / Modi 2 enough for an HE-560 or should I look for a AMP/DAC with more power?
> I like the look of the Schiit products, but don't know which is the 'good enough' for an HE-560.


 
 1.2 W RMS of the Magni 2 Uber can drive the 560's 45 Ohm impedance at 90 dB/mW to almost 121 dB SPL continuously. That's plenty enough headroom and more than enough power for comfortable to loud listening levels. In fact the non uber can drive it to 120 dB SPL continuously and is probably good enough.


----------



## MarcBSC

stand said:


> 1.2 W RMS of the Magni 2 Uber can drive the 560's 45 Ohm impedance at 90 dB/mW to almost 121 dB SPL continuously. That's plenty enough headroom and more than enough power for comfortable to loud listening levels. In fact the non uber can drive it to 120 dB SPL continuously and is probably good enough.


 
  
 Is it also enough for an HE-6?


----------



## StanD

marcbsc said:


> Is it also enough for an HE-6?


 
 The Uber can actually take the HE-6 to 114.3 dB SPL continuously. For many people this is loud enough with enough headroom. I expect that many will cringe at this assertion, but these are the numbers.


----------



## Defiant00

marcbsc said:


> Is it also enough for an HE-6?




Never got to try it with the HE-6, but for anecdotal entertainment, I actually thought the original M&M stack did surprisingly decently with the K1000, although I'm not sure if it's more or less difficult to drive than the HE-6.


----------



## MarcBSC

stand said:


> The Uber can actually take the HE-6 to 114.3 dB SPL continuously. For many people this is loud enough with enough headroom. I expect that many will cringe at this assertion, but these are the numbers.


 
 The Schiit Asgard with modi would be better? Or maybe a Lyr with modi?


----------



## StanD

marcbsc said:


> The Schiit Asgard with modi would be better? Or maybe a Lyr with modi?


 
 Which headphones do you have? Chances are that you may want to consult your wallet.


----------



## MarcBSC

stand said:


> Which headphones do you have? Chances are that you may want to consult your wallet.


 
  
 I'm new to the audio world, at the moment I've a very bad Logitech G35, although it works fine with skype and so on.
 At the moment I'm making a shift from photography to cinematography so I wanted a more analytical headphone.
 The problem is; it has to be comfortable with normal listening like classical music.
  
 First I looked to the Sennheisers and came to the conclusion that the lower priced headphones like the H650 are not very neutral, and the treble isn't that good. (according reviews)
  
 Then I started looking to the Hifiman and considering the HE-6 and HE-560 and I don't know which one I have to buy 
 I want to get the most for my money, but also keeping the future in mind.
  
 According to this comparison the M&M aren't that bad, and combining them with the HE-560 is an option.
 For a few euros extra I can get the HE-6 but maybe the AMP need a upgrade to the Lyr.
  
 The first option is cheaper, but looking to the future the second option is maybe better?
  
 My budget is around 2000 euro...


----------



## StanD

marcbsc said:


> I'm new to the audio world, at the moment I've a very bad Logitech G35, although it works fine with skype and so on.
> At the moment I'm making a shift from photography to cinematography so I wanted a more analytical headphone.
> The problem is; it has to be comfortable with normal listening like classical music.
> 
> ...


 
 Take a look at the Sennheiser HD600, it is considered neutral and is very nicely priced. It is also not hard to drive for a 300 Ohm can so you don't have to look for an exotic amp, any Schiit will do.


----------



## MarcBSC

stand said:


> Take a look at the Sennheiser HD600, it is considered neutral and is very nicely priced. It is also not hard to drive for a 300 Ohm can so you don't have to look for an exotic amp, any Schiit will do.


 
  
 Yeah, but I think that it isn't very smart to buy a cheap AMP only suitable for the Sennheiser HD600.
 When I want to upgrade to an HE-560 of HE-6 I don't want to buy a new more powerful AMP, that's what I mean by futureproof...
  
 I've seen the Sennheiser HD600, it is neutral but I think it's not detailed enough...
 Do you think that a Lyr and Modi should do the trick for HD600 and HE-6?


----------



## StanD

marcbsc said:


> Yeah, but I think that it isn't very smart to buy a cheap AMP only suitable for the Sennheiser HD600.
> When I want to upgrade to an HE-560 of HE-6 I don't want to buy a new more powerful AMP, that's what I mean by futureproof...
> 
> I've seen the Sennheiser HD600, it is neutral but I think it's not detailed enough...
> Do you think that a Lyr and Modi should do the trick for HD600 and HE-6?


 
 The HD600 is nicely detailed, don't know where you get the impression that it is not. An Asgard 2 or Magni 2 can easily drive my HE-500's and the 560's are about as sensitive as the 500's. There's a lot of anecdotes about amps. Why are you so interested in a more expensive amp when you are willing to get the entry level DAC? Are you really going to get an HE-6?


----------



## MarcBSC

stand said:


> The HD600 is nicely detailed, don't know where you get the impression that it is not. An Asgard 2 or Magni 2 can easily drive my HE-500's and the 560's are about as sensitive as the 500's. There's a lot of anecdotes about amps. Why are you so interested in a more expensive amp when you are willing to get the entry level DAC? Are you really going to get an HE-6?


 
  
 This thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared (treble and detail issues)
  
 I keep in mind that in the future I might switch to a more difficult (to drive) headphone.
 The topicstarter of this thread says that the differences in sound aren't that big in DAC.
 But the HE-6 (and other harder to drive headphones) requires a more powerful AMP isn't it?
  
 And maybe you are right and the DAC should have an upgrade.
  
 For me it is difficult to make a decision without any reference point, but I appreciate your feedback very much!


----------



## StanD

marcbsc said:


> This thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared (treble and detail issues)
> 
> I keep in mind that in the future I might switch to a more difficult (to drive) headphone.
> The topicstarter of this thread says that the differences in sound aren't that big in DAC.
> ...


 
 The requirements for power are usually exaggerated, few headphones require more than 1W at low impedance and few hundred mW at higher impedances, The HE-6 is in the rare case of power hunger, if you are truly planning on getting this soon, then maybe a 3 or 4 W amp is on your cards.
 While your wallet is on overdrive, how about the new upcoming HE-1000? It is more sensitive and doesn't need as much power. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 When it comes to this stuff, it is easy to spend much more and get little more in return.


----------



## MarcBSC

I agree that it is easy to spend much more and get a little in return. According to my previous link the HE-6 is worth your money.
 That's why I consider it  I think I've enough information to make a decision, thanks for your help!


----------



## Peter Hyatt

In revisiting an old thread:
  
 has Modi 2 über closed the gap to the Bifrost?


----------



## Defiant00

Haven't heard the Modi 2 Uber, but if anyone wants to lend me one I'd be happy to compare it to my new Bifrost Multibit


----------



## freitz

Just read all 19 pages.
  
 Thanks Defiant


defiant00 said:


> Haven't heard the Modi 2 Uber, but if anyone wants to lend me one I'd be happy to compare it to my new Bifrost Multibit


 
  
  
 I am considering this setup long term and want to get your input.
  
*Option 1* - Computer U*SB to Schiit Modi 2 Uber > RCA >  Magni 2 Uber > Master & Dynamic MH40's*
 also - *Sonos Optical *>* Modi 2 Uber *> RCA > *Magni 2 Uber* > RCA > *Audio Engine A2+*
  
*Option 2 *- Computer USB to* Bitfrost* > RCA > *Asgard* > *MH40's*
 also - *Sonos Optical *> *Bitfrost *> RCA > *Asgard 2* > RCA > *Audio Engine A2+*
  
 I have been on the fence a few days figured I would ask everyone here.


----------



## Defiant00

freitz said:


> Just read all 19 pages.
> 
> Thanks Defiant
> 
> ...


 
  
 Personal preference, if you're not going Bifrost Multibit, I'd probably go Modi 2 U and Magni 2 U. Maybe put the money saved towards a second, complementary set of cans, as that'd make a much larger difference than either amp or DAC.
  
 Now, if multibit is within your budget, then that's where I would (and did) go. But with that said, the little Ubers are a very good relatively inexpensive setup, and are certainly better bang-for-your-buck.


----------



## freitz

defiant00 said:


> Personal preference, if you're not going Bifrost Multibit, I'd probably go Modi 2 U and Magni 2 U. Maybe put the money saved towards a second, complementary set of cans, as that'd make a much larger difference than either amp or DAC.
> 
> Now, if multibit is within your budget, then that's where I would (and did) go. But with that said, the little Ubers are a very good relatively inexpensive setup, and are certainly better bang-for-your-buck.


 
 Just noticed the Modi 2 Uber is now like a mini Bitfrost with the multi input.
  
 I was leaning towards the Bitfrost only because of assumed better DAC performance; Figuring the AMP would be nominal?
 Also for long term upgrade-ability. Would Bitfrost be better for entire set up not just Head phones?


----------



## Defiant00

freitz said:


> Just noticed the Modi 2 Uber is now like a mini Bitfrost with the multi input.
> 
> I was leaning towards the Bitfrost only because of assumed better DAC performance; Figuring the AMP would be nominal?
> Also for long term upgrade-ability. Would Bitfrost be better for entire set up not just Head phones?


 
  
 Personally, I have no confidence I'd be able to tell the normal Bifrost apart from the Modi 2 (although keep in mind, I haven't heard the latest version of either, just the earlier ones). I would also expect the same for amps, but I haven't heard the Magni 2 either. Honestly, I haven't heard much difference between good solid state amps that I've heard, as long as they've been working properly.
  
 While I haven't done much listening with the Bifrost and speakers, general reports suggest that multibit is an even bigger improvement on speakers. Also, if the upgradeability appeals, that might be a good reason to pick Bifrost as well.


----------



## freitz

defiant00 said:


> Personally, I have no confidence I'd be able to tell the normal Bifrost apart from the Modi 2 (although keep in mind, I haven't heard the latest version of either, just the earlier ones). I would also expect the same for amps, but I haven't heard the Magni 2 either. Honestly, I haven't heard much difference between good solid state amps that I've heard, as long as they've been working properly.
> 
> While I haven't done much listening with the Bifrost and speakers, general reports suggest that multibit is an even bigger improvement on speakers. Also, if the upgradeability appeals, that might be a good reason to pick Bifrost as well.


 
 Modi 2 Uber tiny bitfrost without upgrade-ability? 
  
 It seems Modi 2 Uber and Magni 2 Uber would be the best bet. Also low cost and the MH40's aren't hard to drive.
  
 However my Shure SE535s might be not sure though.


----------



## Defiant00

freitz said:


> Modi 2 Uber tiny bitfrost without upgrade-ability?
> 
> It seems Modi 2 Uber and Magni 2 Uber would be the best bet. Also low cost and the MH40's aren't hard to drive.
> 
> However my Shure SE535s might be not sure though.


 
  
 Yup, you've got it. They also added a gain switch to Magni 2, so it should be good with your Shures in low gain mode as well, just start off with the volume all the way down!


----------



## freitz

defiant00 said:


> Yup, you've got it. They also added a gain switch to Magni 2, so it should be good with your Shures in low gain mode as well, just start off with the volume all the way down!


 
 I added a Silver Lutz cable to the Shures so they get really loud even on the iphone 6.
  
 Ill give it a shot. I had the original Schiit stack modi magni with a AKG K550... wasn't impressed.


----------



## freitz

Schiit says this.
 
This is a pretty big step up from the Magni in terms of performance and functionality. Asgard 2 adds a gain switch, for better compatibility with earbuds and IEMs, and variable preamp outs so you can connect it to a set of desktop powered monitors, or a speaker amp.
Choose Asgard 2 for:
Exceptional resolution and performance 
 A complete desktop control center
 Most headphones, from sensitive IEMs to planars
 
However If I am not mistaken the new Magni 2 Uber has gains switch, and preamp outs. I wonder if there is actually more resolution and performance now against the uber.


----------



## utee05

I recently got a modi2u and it leans on the bright side. Not a good match with my he400 cans. Tempted to get bifrost and upgrade to multibit later on. I'm currently using a lyr as my amp. I previously came from a modi and went to modi2u from all of the reports saying it is a mini bifrost at a fraction of the cost. The sound is harsh and bright to where I can't have long listening sessions anymore.


----------



## Peter Hyatt

"Novocaine" from Amber Rubarth sounds like someone is playing percussion in the living room!


----------



## utee05

After reading a bit more on the 4490 on the bifrost I am going to take the plunge. Currently sending back my Modi2U to use the money to get the bifrost. Lots of high regards for the 4490 and most seem to be really enjoy the better sound stage and punch you get from it.


----------



## freitz

I thought for a while about grabbing a Bitfrost + Asgard 2 combo. Ended up with the Deckard from Audeze to pair with my EL-8's


----------



## Peter Hyatt

utee05 said:


> After reading a bit more on the 4490 on the bifrost I am going to take the plunge. Currently sending back my Modi2U to use the money to get the bifrost. Lots of high regards for the 4490 and most seem to be really enjoy the better sound stage and punch you get from it.


 
  
 New Macbook Pro...I am just testing the Bifrost now.


----------



## cmateski

This is exactly what I was looking for.. a good review of low to high end DAC/AMP combos. From what I can tell the Modi/Magni pair will do what I need and with quality sound. My only concern left is if I can leave them always on.


----------



## Defiant00

cmateski said:


> This is exactly what I was looking for.. a good review of low to high end DAC/AMP combos. From what I can tell the Modi/Magni pair will do what I need and with quality sound. My only concern left is if I can leave them always on.


 
  
 No need to leave the Modi and Magni on all the time, it's mainly the multibit DACs where that makes a real difference.
  
 Oh, but re-reading what you said, you certainly can leave them on all the time if you want. Personally I'd turn off the Magni when not in use, but it shouldn't cause any problems if left on.


----------



## c64

I've read that even an stx soundcard blows the stack out of the water it's definitely overrated for the £200 it costs.


----------



## Defiant00

c64 said:


> I've read that even an stx soundcard blows the stack out of the water it's definitely overrated for the £200 it costs.


 
  
 From what I've both read and personally heard I disagree. It's certainly possible for someone to prefer one over the other, but especially for inexpensive solid state gear, I'd be very surprised to hear any significant differences unless something wasn't working correctly.


----------



## cmateski

defiant00 said:


> No need to leave the Modi and Magni on all the time, it's mainly the multibit DACs where that makes a real difference.
> 
> Oh, but re-reading what you said, you certainly can leave them on all the time if you want. Personally I'd turn off the Magni when not in use, but it shouldn't cause any problems if left on.


 
  
 The reason I'd leave them on all the time is because my computer is always on in my office. It sounds like (from other posts) they should be durable enough to leave on.


----------



## mysticstryk

Never seen anyone claim the stack is overrated at its price point before.


----------



## SirRealist

Wow, this has given me a lot to think about. I was basically convinced that I should get:
 Sennheiser HD 6XX
 Balanced cable for HD 6XX
 Schiit Jotunheim
 Schiit Modi Multibit
  
  
 I'd be attaching this to my computer/iPhone via USB. Am I basically wasting my money here? I don't have anything other than USB and 3.5MM output jacks from my laptop, so should I just save $550 and get a Modi/Magni stack and be done with it?


----------



## mysticstryk

sirrealist said:


> Wow, this has given me a lot to think about. I was basically convinced that I should get:
> Sennheiser HD 6XX
> Balanced cable for HD 6XX
> Schiit Jotunheim
> ...




Literally none of the gear your considering is listed in this comparison. This comparison is pretty old and out of date compared to Schiits current lineup. 

The Modi Multibit is quite a different beast from the Bifrost in this review (and much cheaper). The Jot is also quite an upgrade over an Asgard 2.

The hd6xx can also out resolve the lcd2, particularly on the right setup.


----------



## SirRealist

mysticstryk said:


> Literally none of the gear your considering is listed in this comparison. This comparison is pretty old and out of date compared to Schiits current lineup.
> 
> The Modi Multibit is quite a different beast from the Bifrost in this review (and much cheaper). The Jot is also quite an upgrade over an Asgard 2.
> 
> The hd6xx can also out resolve the lcd2, particularly on the right setup.


 
  
 You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I am very new to all this. While I realize the equipment I listed isn't directly discussed here, he seemed to be implying (or I read into it as) that connecting via USB was "limiting" the use of his gear:
 "I only use the Bifrost through USB"
 "only use through USB"
 "If you're only going to be using it through USB "
  
  
 I'f I'm "only" going to use the Mimby/Jot via a USB connection to my laptop, would I be limiting or not using the potential of the gear?


----------



## mysticstryk

sirrealist said:


> You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I am very new to all this. While I realize the equipment I listed isn't directly discussed here, he seemed to be implying (or I read into it as) that connecting via USB was "limiting" the use of his gear:
> "I only use the Bifrost through USB"
> "only use through USB"
> "If you're only going to be using it through USB "
> ...




No worries 

It doesn't really work like that. USB won't be an issue unless you plan on getting something like the Yggy. Even then it's not a huge difference and it would depend on the rest of your gear. 

USB is absolutely alright for your setup. 

USB wasn't this person's issue, the issue was that the two setups are not that far apart to begin with. The Bifrost/Asgard setup was barely an upgrade. A lot has changed since 2012. 

If you don't want to spend $400 on the Jot, I'd highly recommend looking into the Vali 2. $170 and pairs really well with the Senn. Stacks nicely with the Modi Multibit as well.


----------



## SirRealist

mysticstryk said:


> No worries
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you. I don't mind spending the $$$ for what I've come to conclude is an "end game" system for mid-fi. What I might do one day, if/when I want to play with OTL, is add it to the system (or probably, a Valhalla 2). Thoughts?


----------



## Defiant00

sirrealist said:


> You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I am very new to all this. While I realize the equipment I listed isn't directly discussed here, he seemed to be implying (or I read into it as) that connecting via USB was "limiting" the use of his gear:
> "I only use the Bifrost through USB"
> "only use through USB"
> "If you're only going to be using it through USB "
> ...


 
  


mysticstryk said:


> No worries
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
@mysticstryk has it right, the "Only USB" comments were because the original Modi only had USB, where one of the selling points of the Bifrost was the other connections.
  
 Since I have a Bifrost Multibit and Asgard 2, and demo'd a Jotunheim for a week, here are my general thoughts:
  
 1) Multibit, and the Modi MB especially, is definitely worth it and the way to go.
 2) Jotunheim is great if you want balanced. If you're only going to use it single-ended then I don't necessarily think it's worth it over something like the Asgard 2. Both are very good solid-state amps, and you can't go wrong with either, but for me I decided to just stick with the A2.
 3) I have heard excellent things about Jotunheim balanced to HD650/6XX, and while I haven't done the exact comparison you're talking about (Modi MB + Jot vs Modi + Magni), if you can swing the former then I would recommend that, as I'd expect it to sound noticeably better.
  
 Hope that helps!


----------



## SirRealist

defiant00 said:


> @mysticstryk has it right, the "Only USB" comments were because the original Modi only had USB, where one of the selling points of the Bifrost was the other connections.
> 
> Since I have a Bifrost Multibit and Asgard 2, and demo'd a Jotunheim for a week, here are my general thoughts:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you for all your advice. I've told myself to wait a bit and see if Madddrop does another 6XX drop, but I've decided I'll eventually order:
 1) HD 6XX/HD 650
 2) A balanced replacement cable for (1) (probably this one on Amazon)
 3) The Jot
 4) The Mimbi


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## mysticstryk

sirrealist said:


> Thank you. I don't mind spending the $$$ for what I've come to conclude is an "end game" system for mid-fi. What I might do one day, if/when I want to play with OTL, is add it to the system (or probably, a Valhalla 2). Thoughts?




Valhalla 2 is excellent with the 650(6xx). When I compared the two, I ever so slightly preferred my Valhalla, mostly due to it pairing better with my other Senns, mainly the 800. 



sirrealist said:


> Thank you for all your advice. I've told myself to wait a bit and see if Madddrop does another 6XX drop, but I've decided I'll eventually order:
> 1) HD 6XX/HD 650
> 2) A balanced replacement cable for (1) (probably this one on Amazon)
> 3) The Jot
> 4) The Mimbi




Rest assured, massdrop will generally run their exclusive products every few months. I expect the 6xx will be back, particularly as it's been their most successful product launch.


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## 227qed

Deleted, time changed my story.


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## arthurl

Thanks for the unbaised review, looks like there's nothing more compact and better dac amp combo for now?


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## mysticstryk

arthurl said:


> Thanks for the unbaised review, looks like there's nothing more compact and better dac amp combo for now?




This review is 5 years old. Better stuff has come out since. In the same footprint, you could get a Modi Multibit and Vali 2 stack.


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## Defiant00

arthurl said:


> Thanks for the unbaised review, looks like there's nothing more compact and better dac amp combo for now?


 
  


mysticstryk said:


> This review is 5 years old. Better stuff has come out since. In the same footprint, you could get a Modi Multibit and Vali 2 stack.


 
  
 Yeah, I'd definitely go multibit and either Magni 2 or Vali 2 if you want a good compact stack. Or normal Modi 2 depending on funds, it's still very good sounding as well (the multibit offerings are pretty special though).


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## pephurdur

sirrealist said:


> Thank you for all your advice. I've told myself to wait a bit and see if Madddrop does another 6XX drop, but I've decided I'll eventually order:
> 1) HD 6XX/HD 650
> 2) A balanced replacement cable for (1) (probably this one on Amazon)
> 3) The Jot
> 4) The Mimbi


 
  
 This is a little off-topic... sorry for that. But If you have a soldering iron and some basic skills the stock cable on HD6XX/HD650 is really easy to turn into balanced for no less than what a Neutrik 4-pin male head costs. Instructions at:
 https://robrobinette.com/BalancedCable.htm#Sennheiser_HD
  
 I've done it and it sounds great.


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## DJ The Rocket

Defiant00 said:


> More than anything this comparison emphasized to me how little of a difference I can hear between DACs. Both were run into the Magni at 50% computer volume in 24 bit mode and volume matched by ear



This 50% computer volume thing is bugging me, and I have to wonder if the results would be different at 100% volume. It comes down to the specific implementation of the digital amplifier in your PC, but it seems to me you must have been losing sound quality there. There's a reason why the rule of thumb is to keep all volumes at 100% except for the very last component before the headphones. 

I know this review is from 2012, but it's still relevant, and pops up highly in google search results.


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## Defiant00

DJ The Rocket said:


> This 50% computer volume thing is bugging me, and I have to wonder if the results would be different at 100% volume. It comes down to the specific implementation of the digital amplifier in your PC, but it seems to me you must have been losing sound quality there. There's a reason why the rule of thumb is to keep all volumes at 100% except for the very last component before the headphones.
> 
> I know this review is from 2012, but it's still relevant, and pops up highly in google search results.



Playing 16-bit audio in 24-bit mode means that, from a digital perspective, you have quite a large range of digital volume control before it has any effect on SQ.

A single 24-bit packet at full volume looks like this: [16 bits of data][00000000] (8 zeroes, resulting in a 24-bit piece of data)

When turned down to half volume, all that does is move the 16 bits of data over one, so instead you get: [0][16 bits of data][0000000] (one zero, your data, then the other 7 zeroes). The 16 bits of actual musical data are still entirely intact.

Digital volume control is primarily something to focus on if you're running your DAC at the same bit depth as your source files, because then you are throwing away the least-significant bits. But when you have it set at a higher bit depth then you're just throwing away some of the padding.

The only potentially averse effect is that yes, this does get me 6db closer to the noise floor of the DAC. But that is something, especially with today's music, that I have never been able to actually notice.


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## DJ The Rocket

Defiant00 said:


> Playing 16-bit audio in 24-bit mode means that, from a digital perspective, you have quite a large range of digital volume control before it has any effect on SQ.
> 
> A single 24-bit packet at full volume looks like this: [16 bits of data][00000000] (8 zeroes, resulting in a 24-bit piece of data)
> 
> ...



Oh I see, I didn't see the part about using 16 bit recordings in 24 bit mode. That's a key detail, there


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## EzequielFriscia

This is the kind of review that someone wants to read! Thanks a lot !


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## ScubaMan2017

Defiant00 said:


> Yeah, I'd definitely go multibit and either Magni 2 or Vali 2 if you want a good compact stack. Or normal Modi 2 depending on funds, it's still very good sounding as well (the multibit offerings are pretty special though).


...if you were to press me for WHY I like my Modi-Multibit, USB-SPIDF (Eitr) Vali 2 combination... I struggle to articulate it. Special? Hell yeah. Why? ... errr....


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## SHIMACM

Is it worth upgrading Modi Multibit to a Bifrost Multibit?


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## tafens

SHIMACM said:


> Is it worth upgrading Modi Multibit to a Bifrost Multibit?


Based off of what I’ve heard, that the original Bifrost MB is a marginal improvement over Modi MB, I’d say no. If, however, you mean the Bifrost2 then yes, absolutely.


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