# Project Sunrise II Kit Review



## Misterrogers

I've been on a DIY bender since completing my first O2 some 6 months ago. My older brother and I built Heathkits during our teen years, and O2 (partly because of the intrigue surrounding it) provided the needed nudge. An O2 was followed by another O2, then a couple of CTH's (an awesome little amp by the way - Thanks Alex and Chris).
   
  While looking around for my next project, I happened upon another hybrid tube amp called 'Project Sunrise' — designed by Frans and kitted by Jeremy of Garage 1217. While it was very similar to CTH (single triode hybrid, 6v/12v 9 pin tubes supported), I really like the clean open chassis design and its Class A output stage.
   
  So I placed an order, and was immediately informed by Jeremy that Project Sunrise was EOL, and Project Sunrise II was just around the corner. The second edition of Project Sunrise retains the same sonic character as the first, but adds…
   

 Easy LED tube biasing.
 Improved on/off protection.
 Improved circuit layout.
 More goodness!
   
*Excellent!* My wait increased a bit, but for a few more dollars (disclosure - Jeremy gave me Project Sunrise II for the price of Sunrise) I get the new and improved Sunrise.
   
  After one minor delay my kit arrived — which included a travel case and 1 6N23P tube. I was pleased to notice that I received 'K0001'. Not a big deal really, but kinda cool . While the 'end game' for any audio DIY kit is the sound, this review will focus on the kit and build. I'll post another review soon that will focus on the stellar sonics of this amp.
   
*Kit*
   
  Unpacking the kit, I was immediately impressed by the quality of the PCB. Granted I haven't seen many, but this one's thicker with better traces and pads. According to Garage 1217, it's a "2 layer, black mask with gold wash circuit board / full lower and upper ground planes - .096 2OZ FR4 board!". Ok - It's all Greek to me, but it's the best I've worked with.
   

   
  Beyond construction, the layout is symmetrical and well thought out. Pads are generous, with ample space between them. Component locations are clearly labeled, with orientation (where applicable) clearly indicated. One thing worth noting - Garage 1217 has designed this PCB to be used with both Project Sunrise and Project Horizon (a future 48v version of the same design). This results in a couple of component positions that need to be ignored or simply 'jumped'.
   
  While the manual did give instructions as to which should be jumped, it was a bit confusing as I wasn't sure if the jumpers (wire) should be permanent or temporary — as is often done when you need to test specific circuits during startup. This is a good time to mention that Jeremy is a solid, friendly dude that's gone out of his way to provide the best possible experience with Project Sunrise and Garage 1217. As I worked through these minor issues, Jeremy was quick to provide the help needed — and often updated the manual to clarify what might be confusing to DIY rookies such as myself.
   
  Back to the kit, which came well labeled with components in individual bags (anti-static when needed). Garage 1217 didn't cut corners with kit components — output caps are Nichicon FG's, resistors are Vishay RN series, pots and trimmers are Bourns; all audiophile grade components. Even with this Garage 1217 went a step further with a PCB designed to accept a wide variety of component pitches and diameters. Tweakers and tuners can go wild! When assembling, I found all components to be properly and clearly labeled. Nothing was missing, nothing was extra.
   

   
  The mechanic aspects of the kit (chassis, top, etc.) were top notch. Honestly, the fit, finish and overall quality of the kit exceeded my expectations for a kit from such a small operation. Kudos!
   
*Assembly*
   
  As I discuss assembly, it may at times read like an addendum to the manual. This is somewhat deliberate, as I want to pass on details that may be helpful.
   
  For the most part, the quality of 'kitting' and board layout places Sunrise II firmly in the beginner category if it wasn't for that one SMD (surface mount) component — an LED. Not that it's difficult to install — it just requires a steady hand with a bit of care to watch your soldering temperature. Because of this, I'd rate the kit as intermediate — though quite doable for beginners.
   
  The manual begins with the usual (and appropriate) 24VDC danger warning. As with any electronic kit, damage and injury can occur if care isn't taken to insure proper safety. If you're a DIY 'newbie' and work slowly and deliberately — following the manual you shouldn't have any problems.
   
  Actual work begins with PCB prep — the 90% Isopropyl Alcohol bath. If you're anything like me, you may be eager to skip this step and dive in. <strong>Don't do it!</strong> While the the kit PCB came relatively clean, solder will flow much better if you take the time to insure that the board is free of chemicals and oils.
   
  Next up is heat-sink assembly and bottom chassis prep. When you've assembled your heat-sinks, set them aside such that the device leads are not bent, and will not be subject to static electricity. I rested mine on the anti-static bags the devices came in.
   
  Component installation was straightforward and follows the common DIY axiom of 'small and low, first to go'. Ok, maybe I just made that up. Resistors, diodes, small caps and such first — followed by medium sized components and finally large. If the board layout allows, I like to install more sensitive components (those shipped in anti-static bags) last, regardless of size — just to be safe.
   
  Be sure to ground the volume pot (per the manual). It's critical for quiet operation. While it's not discussed in the manual, I highly recommend another 90% Isopropyl Alcohol bath on the bottom of the PCB to remove the rosin. You may need a couple of passes to get all the rosin off, but it will extend the life of your circuitry.
   
  Set the LED and input capacitor bypass jumper to default settings, and install the top acrylic panel.
   
*Configuration*
   
  Set output resistance jumpers to default settings, and set the tube heater voltage jumper accordingly to match the type of tube you'll be using. If you received a 6N23P from Garage 1217, set it to 6 V. Now insert your tube.
   
*Power it up*, and let it sit for a minute or two while you look for 'magic smoke'. If all goes well (and it usually does if you've followed the manual), you're ready to adjust the tube bias.
   
  V2 of Project Sunrise has made this easy with a couple of small but significant enhancements:
   

 'High/Low' voltage LED's allows adjustment without a meter.
 Tube bias trim pots are adjustable with the top in place.
   
  Just follow the bias adjustment steps in the manual to dial in the bias for both left and right channels. If you're 'old school', there's a page covering tube bias using a meter.
   
*Nits*
   
  For the sake of disclosure, I did come across a couple of minor issues during the build — though some fall squarely in the realm of 'builder error':
   

 A couple of components were miss-labeled in the manual.
 A couple of jumpers (IC1) seemed temporary, when they needed to be soldered.
 There's a couple of redundant 'JP2' pads that I accidentally installed my jumper pins in.
 A couple of my standoffs cross-threaded the first time I removed and reinstalled them.
   
  All of the above have been corrected by Garage 1217 through manual changes or parts replacements. Through the entire build, Jeremy was quick to respond and correct everything I found. But he went even further — after building I noticed a very slight low volume channel imbalance. I didn't mention it to Jeremy as I never listen to music that low, and it evened with the slightest volume increase. Jeremy notified me that a small number of pots had this imbalance, and he was sending out a replacement. Now that's service!
   
*Final Thoughts*
   
  All in all, Project Sunrise II was a very enjoyable kit to assemble. Fit and finish was top notch, quality parts are provided throughout, and the instruction manual is clear and well written. If you're a beginner with a kit or two under your belt (or a beginner with help available if needed), I highly recommend you give Project Sunrise II a try.
   

   
  Feel free to ask any questions you have about this kit - I'll do my best to answer them.


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## sonikbliss

Wow!
   
  Very cool...
   
  I'm so intrigued..
   
  How would you compare this to your LYR with the HE-500's?
   
  Do Tell!!


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## Misterrogers

I've spent the last couple of days listening to my HE-500's with Project Sunrise II. Compared to Lyr, Lyr has the following advantages:
  * Power. While PSII is in no way underpowered for these headphones, extra power equals extra headroom. This to me, translates to slightly more air and space.
  * Slightly wider sound stage.
   
  Compared to Lyr, PSII has the following advantages:
  * Slightly better detail.
  * Slightly deeper sound stage.
   
  Overall, with HE-500's I could switch to PSII full time and not miss too much.
  
  Quote: 





sonikbliss said:


> Wow!
> 
> Very cool...
> 
> ...


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## sonikbliss

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> I've spent the last couple of days listening to my HE-500's with Project Sunrise II. Compared to Lyr, Lyr has the following advantages:
> * Power. While PSII is in no way underpowered for these headphones, extra power equals extra headroom. This to me, translates to slightly more air and space.
> * Slightly wider sound stage.
> 
> ...


 

 Well, I was completely ready to get the Lyr until I saw your posts for the Project Sunrise II. I think I'd prefer detail and sound stage depth to wider sound stage. Especially since the price is much lower. Is there any other Amp you think would be a better choice for the HE-500's? Oh and do you have a favorite tube for the PS II & HE-500's?
   
  I really appreciate your posts!


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## Misterrogers

The Lyr is a great amp for the price, but if you're not trying to drive an HE-6 or other cans that are not efficient, you can wake up the HE-500's with less raw power and get more detail. The PSII is one one such amp. I'm limited in the amps that I've use with my HE-500's. It's been the Lyr, PSII, a BA (amazing but very expensive), and a CTH. Oh, and an O2. Of all these (excluding the BA), I liked the PSII and the CTH the most. My favorite tube in PSII is a Siemens & Halske E188CC. Second is the Lorenz Stuttgart PCC88. For the price, PSII does an amazing job with these headphones. Not a lot of experience with with PSII around here I guess, but their are a number of HE-500 users on rock grotto that use the PSII to drive them.


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## sonikbliss

How would you compare the O2 to the PSII? My sense is the O2 is great for most cans, but not really the HE-500's.
  It probably does a good job, but not a great job. Also you have the Bifrost, I was planning on getting one as well. Do you think for the price there is anything else worth considering? 
   
  And finally regarding the PSII, I was going to buy the PSII fully built kit. Do you see any downside? I just don't have time to DIY right now.


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## Misterrogers

To me, O2 was a tad bit underpowered to bring out the best in the HE-500's. Bifrost is awesome. The consensus is (and I agree), that it's hard to find a better DAC for the money. Fully built is the way to go if you don't have time. Jeremy (one of the two principles) is a good dude, and I've seen his work. It's top notch.


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## sonikbliss

Ok, I'm ordering the PSII. Where did you get the Siemens & Halske E188CC? I don't see it on the Garage 1217 Site.
  Any other tips I should be aware of or other suggestions?


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## Misterrogers

I'd order one of the tubes they stock - it's actually a pretty good match with PSII (as makes sense, I think they used this tube to voice it). You'll have to go hunting for the S&H E188CC. But that's part of the fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. PSII has a few nice tweaks to it. You can adjust the tube HV, allowing you to roll 6.3v tubes, as well as 12.6v tubes. This opens up many possibilities. I'd polk around the CTH threads. It has the same feature, so you can see what sort of tubes they're using. You can also bypass the input caps and adjust the output impedance. I'm running in cap bypass mode, and have my impedance set to low, which works very well with the HE-500. You can also adjust the color of the tube LED if you like. 
  
  Quote: 





sonikbliss said:


> Ok, I'm ordering the PSII. Where did you get the Siemens & Halske E188CC? I don't see it on the Garage 1217 Site.
> Any other tips I should be aware of or other suggestions?


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## sivart

Thanks misterrogers, a very nice overview indeed. The PSII is definitely on my 'to build' list. Any thoughts about the potential benefits of using it with a linear power supply?


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## Misterrogers

Ultimately I'd address that to Jeremy at Garage 1217, but usually real gains can be had by replacing a wall wart with a good linear power supply. Now you have me intrigued - I'll have to check into that


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## Alberto01

How does the O2 compare to the PSII in sound quality?


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## Misterrogers

They're both very good amps, with good extension. Being a class A tube hybrid, PSII has a weightier delivery with more 'n' order harmonics. The hybrid aspect keeps this in check, but you get a bit. The core question you have to answer is, do you enjoy the sound of tube amps, or do you prefer the cooler/leaner sound of an amp like O2? Both are great, depends on you. They both have very good SQ.


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## Alberto01

Quote: 





misterrogers said:


> They're both very good amps, with good extension. Being a class A tube hybrid, PSII has a weightier delivery with more 'n' order harmonics. The hybrid aspect keeps this in check, but you get a bit. The core question you have to answer is, do you enjoy the sound of tube amps, or do you prefer the cooler/leaner sound of an amp like O2? Both are great, depends on you. They both have very good SQ.


 
   
  I have never had a tube amp and the two solid state amps that I have used, have been of a small capacity (60 mW at 100 ohms at best), so I could not know the answer to the core question.  But, I think that you can help me.  What is the difference between a "weightier delivery with more 'n' order harmonics" (tube sound) and a "cooler/leaner sound."  if you elaborate a little on that difference, I would understand.  Which one do you prefer?


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## Misterrogers

Sure mate. Don't mind elaborating - with the usual caveats; IMO, YMMV, WYSIWYG... Generally (not always), a solid state amp such as the O2 is going to produce sonics that are closer to the source (though ss components can certainly add their own coloration). The designer behind the O2 is very measurement driven and sought to produce an amp that was essentially 'wire with gain'. He did pretty damn good. A tube amp on the other hand, can produce additional 2/3 order harmonics that lend a 'fatter' or 'retro' sound to the sonics they produce. There's a lot of science to all this of which I am no expert; though I do enjoy the research. Personally, I prefer 'controlled' tube sonics (major 2nd order, minor 3rd, little or no other harmonics) that are found with most hybrid or super cathode feedback designs. 
   
  Put simply, a lithe tubiness is a good thing, too much isn't.


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## Alberto01

What are order harmonics?
   
  I want an amp to produce a richer and fuller sound as compared to not using an amp.


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## Alberto01

What cable do you have in your HE-500?  They come now with a silver cable.  Has it been always like that?


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## Misterrogers

Best to google the web with 'order harmonics audio' to get an assortment of discussions that are more knowledgable than I 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 My HE-500 did come with a Silver cable - I believe they used to ship with a copper. Sonically, the included silver is really pretty good. Quality/construction leaves a lot to be desired though.


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## PurpleAngel

How would the Sunrise II compare to the Indeed G3?


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## Alberto01

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> How would the Sunrise II compare to the Indeed G3?


 
  I searched for comparisons between those two amps and the best I could find online, was this thread:
   
  http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=b&action=display&thread=7174
   
  On reply #2, you will see a comparison.  I posted in the thread asking for more information on the sound quality, but was not given more than what was already posted in the thread.
   
  That is a comparison between the Project Sunrise and the Indeed G3.  I read in another thread that the sound quality of the Sunrise and the Sunrise II is the same, or very close to being the same.


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## JoetheArachnid

Just to chip in, there's a breakdown of the differences between the PSII and the Horizon and also a sound comparison/impressions here: http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=b&action=display&thread=7968
   
  I don't own any of the Sunrise kits myself but I trust Frans (the designer) and Jeremy to put together something good, and all of the impressions I've read so far have been positive. And as an FYI, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in Mike's (PinkFloyd) comparison between the G3 and PS since I have a feeling that he still had some negative feelings towards the Sunrise venture at the time he wrote that. Don't ask.
   
  I've actually just finished building another amp designed by Frans, may have to snap some pictures at some point and post it in a thread here...


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## Alberto01

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> Just to chip in, there's a breakdown of the differences between the PSII and the Horizon and also a sound comparison/impressions here: http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=b&action=display&thread=7968
> 
> I don't own any of the Sunrise kits myself but I trust Frans (the designer) and Jeremy to put together something good, and all of the impressions I've read so far have been positive. And as an FYI, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in Mike's (PinkFloyd) comparison between the G3 and PS since I have a feeling that he still had some negative feelings towards the Sunrise venture at the time he wrote that. Don't ask.
> 
> I've actually just finished building another amp designed by Frans, may have to snap some pictures at some point and post it in a thread here...


 
  You are saying then, that it very likely that the following description by Pink Floyd, is not accurate:
   
_[size=x-small]"I have been listening (mainly) to my Project Sunrise headphone amp the past few weeks and was expecting a bit of a "downgrade" in the sonic dept. switching over to the G3 but, NO! It's very hard to seperate the two of them SQ wise."

 "If anything, I would say the G3 has the edge when it comes to dynamics and sheer GRUNT.... close your eyes and you'd think you were listening to an amp the size of a domestic fridge.... open them, shake your head.... YES, "that" sound "IS" coming out of that little thing![/size]"_


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## Maverickmonk

That amp looks great, but I have to ask, how does it sound with your T1's? I'm looking for an amp for my 600ohm sextets, and I was sold on the little dot MK3 until I saw this thread, if it can compete with the lyr, how does it do with inefficient, high ohm phones?
   
  Edit: Nevermind, I see the sunrise is optimized for <150ohm headphones, and the horizon is the one that will be optimized for higher ohm headphones, but is out of my price range, woops.


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## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





alberto01 said:


> You are saying then, that it very likely that the following description by Pink Floyd, is not accurate:
> 
> _[size=x-small]"I have been listening (mainly) to my Project Sunrise headphone amp the past few weeks and was expecting a bit of a "downgrade" in the sonic dept. switching over to the G3 but, NO! It's very hard to seperate the two of them SQ wise."
> 
> "If anything, I would say the G3 has the edge when it comes to dynamics and sheer GRUNT.... close your eyes and you'd think you were listening to an amp the size of a domestic fridge.... open them, shake your head.... YES, "that" sound "IS" coming out of that little thing![/size]"_


 
   
  I won't say that it's not accurate since I trust Mike's judgement and I'm still unsure about what the situation between him and the seller of the Project Sunrise was at the time he wrote that. All I'm saying is that you should take it with a pinch of salt, just in case...


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## cyberzent

What are the finished built sizes of the amp ? I buying this one for my travelling amp...


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## Misterrogers

I'll take measurements later, but I think it's about 6in by 8in. You can also buy a nice hard travel case with it, which I have.


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## cyberzent

I can hardly believe the musicality this amp has, it took me by surprice and I must say I had no idea that it can be made in such small package. 
  Outstanding value/performance in every way ! And a big thank you from Norway to Jeremy in making me this amp. I know see other have taken action and ordered some more amps up North, excellent, hope it would be many more. 
  Keep up the amazing work !!
   
  My picture my amp  and thats me smiling when playing music.


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## KimLaroux

This thing looks very good. I like how they blended functionality and design together. The holes for the capacitors and the eat sinks makes the thing sturdier while at the same time making it look better. It's a nice piece of art, to be honest.


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## proid

Quote: 





cyberzent said:


> I can hardly believe the musicality this amp has, it took me by surprice and I must say I had no idea that it can be made in such small package.
> Outstanding value/performance in every way ! And a big thank you from Norway to Jeremy in making me this amp. I know see other have taken action and ordered some more amps up North, excellent, hope it would be many more.
> Keep up the amazing work !!
> 
> My picture my amp  and thats me smiling when playing music.


 
   
  Can you compare the PS to your other amps?


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## cyberzent

I had the B52 here for about a week, yes the B52 is better but there isnt alot that separate the two wich is kind of amazing consider the price tag between the two. I have known of that the Sunrise had been set up in comparison with the Auralic amplifier and the person who tested ended up liking the Sunrise better. 
   
  A Piece of art For sure, I have no doubt about recommended the amplifier. The value/musicality is simply outstanding in every way.
  I do not know Jeremy and have NO interest whatsoever in this amp without liking the sound it produced. I have paid full price for the unit on ebay.


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## proid

Quote: 





cyberzent said:


> I had the B52 here for about a week, yes the B52 is better but there isnt alot that separate the two wich is kind of amazing consider the price tag between the two. I have known of that the Sunrise had been set up in comparison with the Auralic amplifier and the person who tested ended up liking the Sunrise better.
> 
> A Piece of art For sure, I have no doubt about recommended the amplifier. The value/musicality is simply outstanding in every way.
> I do not know Jeremy and have NO interest whatsoever in this amp without liking the sound it produced. I have paid full price for the unit on ebay.


 
   
  Thats interesting, thanks for your impression. Do you have the link to the comparison with Auralic?


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## cyberzent

Here is the link to my local forum, guess you have to use google translate if you dont read Norwegian 
   
  The Auralic VS Sunrise can be found here from "Morpheus" - Good Luck !
   
  http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/hi-fi-generelt/28237-egen-tra-d-hodetelefonoppsett-215.html


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## CDWMcInSpots

^
  I actually started a separate thread on the Norwegian forum Hifisentralen for "*Project Sunrise, Horizon og Ember*" on 11 June 2012. It is part of the forum's new headphone section. I think we've collected just about everything we've written regarding these headphone amplifiers in that thread, even when first published somewhere else.
   
  So far three owners have posted listening impressions of Project Sunrise Version II, all considering it very good, though with (too) high gain:

 Morpheus (? on Head-Fi.org)
 johnnygrandis (cyberzent on Head-Fi.org)
 Loevhagen (Loevhagen on Head-Fi.org)
   
  There's more customers expected and in the pipeline.
   
  By the way and FYI, Norwegian is also readable for those that read Danish (very similar) or Swedish. If you visit, feel free to write a reply in Norwegian, Danish, Swedish or English.


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## cyberzent

Still kicking butt !!


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## Loevhagen

misterrogers said:


> I've spent the last couple of days listening to my HE-500's with Project Sunrise II.
> :
> :
> Overall, with HE-500's I could switch to PSII full time and not miss too much.




Agree. That combo is surprisingly good.


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## cyberzent

Making of my new poster...


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## audio snob

I have never done any electronic building before but it is very intriguing and looks really fun. I have been debating buying the valhalla lately and a pair of he-400. Do you think this would be an easy enough project that I could manage it as a complete beginner? Also would it match well with the he-400 because they are notoriously hard to drive.


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## Misterrogers

As to ease of building - the Sunrise II would make a great starter kit for a beginner. It's all 'through hole', with well marked parts and good instructions. Regarding it's ability to drive the HE-400's - don't know. I can say that it drove the HE-500's very well. So if they're similar in efficiency...


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## audio snob

Are there complex schematics because I don't quite know how to read them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Oops I was thinking of the HE-4 that is difficult to drive, the HE-400 is comparably efficient to the HE-500. I am just nervous to buy a DIY kit because I truly know nothing about it although I can use a soldering iron well.


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## Alberto01

Quote: 





audio snob said:


> Are there complex schematics because I don't quite know how to read them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 You can also buy it already built.  Search for this amplifier on eBay and you will find the DIY kit, the already built amp and the already built amp with a carrying bag/container as three different items.


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## audio snob

I do want to build it myself I'm just not sure that I could because I'm totally new to building


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## mikek200

Quote: 





audio snob said:


> Are there complex schematics because I don't quite know how to read them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Dont you ,mean the he-6??


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## audio snob

The HE-6 is hard to drive but the HE-4 is also fairly difficult to drive


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## Misterrogers

You do not need to be able to read the schematic to build the kit. If you're able to put the resistor labeled R1 into the whole labeled R1 - you're good to go  I would suggest though, that while you don't need to spend a lot of money on a good soldering iron, I would buy something decent. The better an iron/station holds and recovers it's temperature, the better your experience will be. Soldering irons, stations, solder - all other topic. I'd definitely suggest you read all the threads you can find on these topics. The right gear and right technique can make for a relatively painless, fun experience.


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## audio snob

Ok great ordering it now. I am going to have to get a new iron, the one I have at the moment was very cheap and low end. Do you have any suggestions for a decent one?


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## rmouser

Quote: 





audio snob said:


> Ok great ordering it now. I am going to have to get a new iron, the one I have at the moment was very cheap and low end. Do you have any suggestions for a decent one?


 
   
  The Weller WLC100 is a professional grade iron. Not cheap but it is adjustable temp and lots of different tips are available. You need a fine tip (conical) with meduim heat for building.
   
  Mine is fvie years old; they last forever. The adjustable heat is great. Meduim for for PCB work and higher power connectors, jacks, etc. The fine tip helps reducing solder bridges when installing components that are close to each other like output FETS.


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## audio snob

How much will I be looking at for a decent iron?


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## Misterrogers

I use the Hakko 888 as my backup. It's solid and works very well. It's $80 at amazon. Weller has some at that range. If you were going to spend in the ~$100 range, I'd put the money into a purpose built solder station, and avoid the '3in1' systems. Less of better quality makes for a better experience (just my opinion). Having said all that, I understand that $100 for an iron when you're not sure you'll ever do another my not be something you want to do. If that's you - grab a ratshack pencil and have fun with it. If you like, then invest.


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## audio snob

I hope to do more building after this. I think I'll make the investment but my dad might have one that I can use so I'll have to make sure of that first


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## Alberto01

Quote: 





audio snob said:


> Ok great ordering it now. I am going to have to get a new iron, the one I have at the moment was very cheap and low end. Do you have any suggestions for a decent one?


 
   
  The power capacity (watts) is important.  If it is too high it melts the solder too quickly.  If it is too low it melts the solder too slowly.  For building audio cables I use a 45W soldering iron tool.  30W is too low and 60W it too high.  If the tool that you need for this task is the same, then a 45W or close to that, would be right.


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## KimLaroux

Quote: 





alberto01 said:


> The power capacity (watts) is important.  If it is too high it melts the solder too quickly.  If it is too low it melts the solder too slowly.  For building audio cables I use a 45W soldering iron tool.  30W is too low and 60W it too high.  If the tool that you need for this task is the same, then a 45W or close to that, would be right.


 
   
  Unless you buy a soldering station that has temperature control. The power rating of a soldering station isn't the most relevant thing. The thermal capacity of the tip is important if you have to solder heavy wires, or huge joints. Then there's the speed at which the tip recovers temperature, which is partially related to the power rating.
   
  There are threads talking about soldering irons, including recommendations. Here's a few.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/617284/soldering-irons-or-stations-you-use
http://www.head-fi.org/t/603439/show-us-your-soldering-station-area
http://www.head-fi.org/t/416001/reviews-some-people-collect-amps-i-collect-soldering-stations


----------



## audio snob

Ok thanks, I will check my dads soldering iron to see if it will work. If it doesn't ill look into those forums.


----------



## Goobley

Thanks for this informative thread, I'm almost certainly going to get one of these kits,
  Do you know if one can buy the hard case with the kit? and if so how much.
   
  I have another question based on headphones, I currently only have a pair of shure srh440 (diy wired with electronics prototyping wire - not even copper! - whilst I wait for my cable from btg to arrive here in europe). I will however be upgrading these headphones in the future. They'll need to be closed back and obviously I'd like them to work well with this amp. Any recommendations (I'm currently thinking of the Fostex t50rp with the mad dog mod)? (I like full treble, with decent but not excessive bass, and an overall warm signature for less than 400€). Hopefully I'm allowed to post this here, I was going to put it into the headphones section, however I decided that not many people would know this amp well enough to say. 
   
  Really looking forward to this and using it as a pre-amp too!
   
  Thanks
  Chris


----------



## KimLaroux

Quote: 





goobley said:


> Thanks for this informative thread, I'm almost certainly going to get one of these kits,
> Do you know if one can buy the hard case with the kit? and if so how much.
> 
> I have another question based on headphones, I currently only have a pair of shure srh440 (diy wired with electronics prototyping wire - not even copper! - whilst I wait for my cable from btg to arrive here in europe). I will however be upgrading these headphones in the future. They'll need to be closed back and obviously I'd like them to work well with this amp. Any recommendations (I'm currently thinking of the Fostex t50rp with the mad dog mod)? (I like full treble, with decent but not excessive bass, and an overall warm signature for less than 400€). Hopefully I'm allowed to post this here, I was going to put it into the headphones section, however I decided that not many people would know this amp well enough to say.
> ...


 
   
  Welcome to Head-fi! I'm glad you're considering one of those kits, DIY headphone amplifiers are fun to build. Don't forget to post pictures of the completed product. If you have any problems or uncertainties along the way, you can always come back here and ask away.
   
  That said, this thread is about the DIY project. It's not the proper place to ask about headphones... Try this thread, you'll have more success there.


----------



## audio snob

I just got my kit and I hope to start next week if I don't have too much homework. I'll probably be asking a few questions if anyone is familiar enough with the project to give me some tips. Does anyone know about how long it will take to complete, keep in mind I am completely new to the subject of building electronics.


----------



## KimLaroux

Just take your time. It's often more satisfying to slowly build it with care than to botch the job. Besides, who doesn't want the fun to last? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  You could probably build it in a few hours if you wanted to. Taking your time, and doing it in steps, will allow you to study your work and learn better.


----------



## audio snob

Thanks for the advice. I will take my time


----------



## Unleaded91

audio snob said:


> Thanks for the advice. I will take my time




Hi,

I know this thread is 3 months old, but I was just wondering how your build went?

What are your impressions of the project sunrise?


----------



## nonamodnar

Hi all, I want to build this one over the break for my ODAC and LFF's Paradox. May I ask how this PS2 adds to the sound, in terms of soundstage, SQ, hiss, distortion?
Thanks


----------



## audio snob

Quote: 





unleaded91 said:


> Hi,
> I know this thread is 3 months old, but I was just wondering how your build went?
> What are your impressions of the project sunrise?


 
  I actually have been very busy and haven't gotten around to building it yet. I do however have a friend who just built it and he loves it.


----------



## itsthedanyole

where can i purchase this in a kit form in the U.S.?


----------



## jiminy

eBay


----------



## Ralf Hutter

itsthedanyole said:


> where can i purchase this in a kit form in the U.S.?




Direct from the guy that builds them:

http://garage1217.com/

Absolutely fantastic service.


----------



## itsthedanyole

Just what I was looking for. Thanks!


----------



## dustinsterk

Quote: 





ralf hutter said:


> Direct from the guy that builds them:
> 
> http://garage1217.com/
> 
> Absolutely fantastic service.


 
   
  Thanks!


----------



## adani

Ready to pull a trigger on Project Horizon kit in a hope that it will be a perfect match for my Sennheiser HD-600... the only question remains - will it work out of a European 220v plug? Should I buy any additional accessories and / or power supply unit?


----------



## jonny564

Should be an amazing match with the 600, plenty of power. As to the Voltage question send an email to Admin@garage1217.com they're normally good about getting replys same day


----------



## adani

Yup, guys are very responsive. PM'd them via ebay and also at email provided at their website. Got detailed reply from both of them in half a day. Well, my mind is set up already


----------



## KimLaroux

I think it would be great, for anyone else who may ask themselves this question in the future, if you could publish their answer here.
   
  Because now this thread will show up first in google when searching for this.


----------



## adani

Quote: 





> The power supply that comes with it is 'universal'
> It is wide range so any voltages between 100V and 240V AC is O.K. be it 50 or 60Hz.
> It comes with a set of 'prongs' for various types of outlets, UK, USA, European.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I will post my own thoughts of how well it pairs with HD600 once I receive, assemble the kit and have some impressions to share


----------



## itsthedanyole

Man, I really wanna build this kit! I have K701 and a few Sony xb.... Wonder if they would get along? Can I mod this to sound better? Alps pot? Attenuator? Dale resistors? Or even a toridoal transformer? My imagination runs wild!


----------



## ukemaxxer

Quote: 





adani said:


> I will post my own thoughts of how well it pairs with HD600 once I receive, assemble the kit and have some impressions to share


 
  You will not be disapointed, I use my Horizon, also a kit, with Sennheiser HD650. I run mine with settings for caps bypassed and low resistance. With my older HD595's, mid resistance sounds best. I have just got some 1960 vintage Mullard tubes as well. Listen to the stock tube for a while, before experimenting with alternatives. It sounds good as is though.


----------



## ukemaxxer

Quote: 





itsthedanyole said:


> Man, I really wanna build this kit! I have K701 and a few Sony xb.... Wonder if they would get along? Can I mod this to sound better? Alps pot? Attenuator? Dale resistors? Or even a toridoal transformer? My imagination runs wild!


 
  Kit is already using Dale resistors, I think Jeremy puts a Bourns pot in rather than an Alps, details are on his website.
  I am currently looking to replace the standard SMPS with a linear. Sunride is 24V so easy enough to get hold of. Horizon is a 48V supply.


----------



## itsthedanyole

@ukemaxxer

Thanx! How much of an impact do you guess those mods will have? 

Btw scratch that dale comment, was a slip, lol.


----------



## ukemaxxer

Quote: 





itsthedanyole said:


> @ukemaxxer
> 
> Thanx! How much of an impact do you guess those mods will have?
> 
> Btw scratch that dale comment, was a slip, lol.


 
  To be honest, I'm not sure it will make a massive sonic improvement. The Horizon sounds  superb as it is, I have only tried swapping tubes because it is possible to do so, the supplied stock one is no bad tube. I have another 6N23P supplied by someone on the Rock Grotto forum. It is a 1965 vintage one. To me, there is a difference in sound, but how much do you spend on tubes before you decide no more.
  If you follow the SMPS vs Linear arguments, there are people who sing the praises of both. I would like to try a linear, but is the cost worth it? IDK


----------



## Alberto01

Quote: 





ukemaxxer said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 So, what is the best tube to get, if someone is just going to get one tube instead of tube rolling?


----------



## ukemaxxer

Quote: 





alberto01 said:


> So, what is the best tube to get, if someone is just going to get one tube instead of tube rolling?


 
  Currently, the two I like best are the vintage 6N23P, and the Mullard ECC81. I don't think you would be dissapointed with either of those.
  Get to know the characteristics of the stock tube first though. Most people on the various forums recommend the 1960's tubes over the newer produced ones. But it all comes down to individual tastes.


----------



## PanamaHat

What dacs do you guys use with this amp? I'm using an odac right now, but I'm not sure if I'm squeezing all the potential out of this amp.


----------



## jonny564

Im using a Bifrost, I think the odac should be fine with the sunrise. obviously there are some small gains but for the price im not sure its worth it. I have listened to both dacs on my amp side by side and the difference was minimal.


----------



## Alberto01

ukemaxxer said:


> alberto01 said:
> 
> 
> > So, what is the best tube to get, if someone is just going to get one tube instead of tube rolling?
> ...


Thank you. Please give me a link for each of those tubes. I guess that "vintage 6N23P" does not refer to a specific tube made by one manufacturer, but refers to a group of tubes made several decades ago by several manufacturers. Is this right?


----------



## adani

I wonder how would Horizon pair with FiiO E17, used as a dac-only. Unfortunately, I cannot audition any other sources before purchase, so any advice will be welcome. Is it worth saving for something like Bifrost, provided I'm on a tight budget?


----------



## Micaiah

Thought I'd throw in my two cents regarding DAC's: I have a Project Horizon amp and am using a Ross Martin DAC with it (Laptop>Mapleshade usb cable>Ross Martin DAC>Darwin IC's>Project Horizon amp>Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm) It also has SPDIF in, and Toslink in as well as balanced and RCA output. I think it was around $230 and I'm very happy with both amp and dac. Both are a huge bang for the buck.
   
  The DAC was recommended to me by another audiophile who had a couple DAC's over $1000 and felt the Ross Martin was more musical and enjoyable to listen to. I had to agree with him after hearing it. I also have a Peachtree iNova integrated ($1800) for my speaker rig which has the excellent Sabre ESS 9016 dac chip in it. I've run the iNova dac output directly into my Project Sunrise amp and have found that while there was a little more detail and a slightly more precise soundstage, it was more clinical sounding to my ears in comparison to the Ross Martin.
   
  The main downside to getting a Ross Martin DAC is I think he works alone and is very busy. The website was somewhat confusing to me and communication and delivery are a little lacking. I think I was told it would take 4 weeks and it took 6 weeks to get. I started getting a little nervous after 4 weeks and my emails asking for an update went unanswered. I tried to tell my self that at least it wasn't too much money to loose but it finally came. Once I got it though it was worth it and I've been very happy with it ever since (I think it's been about a year).
   
  There might be a better DAC out there for the money but in my setup I'm more than satisfied that I don't care to waste money and time looking anymore. Just have to be prepared to wait a while to get it but it's very worth it in my opinion. Just my experience to maybe help others avoid loosing large amounts of money like I have because more money doesn't always = better sound.


----------



## adani

Quite interesting stuff. Do you have PCM1794A model? I already have the same chip installed in my iRiver H140 as an ultimate upgrade for a portable rig, and I like it quite a lot.
   
Btw, my Horizon kit arrived today 





  Very decent packaging and PCB.


----------



## Micaiah

Quote: 





adani said:


> Quite interesting stuff. Do you have PCM1794A model? I already have the same chip installed in my iRiver H140 as an ultimate upgrade for a portable rig, and I like it quite a lot.
> 
> Btw, my Horizon kit arrived today
> 
> ...


 
   Yes, it's the PCM1794A version.
   
  Very Exciting! I didn't realize that you hadn't listened to the Horizon yet. I still remember the first time I turned mine on after building it and bracing myself for a let down like other stuff I had high hopes for. The let down never came. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Just curious, what headphones do you plan to use with it?


----------



## adani

Quote: 





micaiah said:


> Yes, it's the PCM1794A version.
> 
> Very Exciting! I didn't realize that you hadn't listened to the Horizon yet. I still remember the first time I turned mine on after building it and bracing myself for a let down like other stuff I had high hopes for. The let down never came.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  TBH, I just gave the kit to a much more experienced guy to assemble it for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I plan to use Sennheiser HD600. Right now I power them with by FiiO E17 and sometimes with my portable rig, which is, while quite outstanding in quality, delivers only about 10-15 mW @ 300 ohm. So there should be quite an obvious improvement.
   
  Having read all the good stuff about the DAC you suggested I really cannot help myself but order one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just curious - they are selling two variations "PCM1794A DAC LME49710 49720" and "PCM1794A DAC + ADA 4898-1-2  Op Amps". Is there really much difference between these two in terms of sound signature? The second version is a bit more expensive.
   
  Btw, did you have an opportunity to compare it with Bifrost?


----------



## Micaiah

Well the Project Horizon will have tons of high quality power to drive your HD600's. I've always wondered how it would sound with Sennheisers HD800. Someday, because of how happy I am with the Horizon and Beyer DT880's, I plan to try the Beyer T1's. Will have to save up for a while though.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  If you get a RMA DAC I really hope you like it. I'm a little hesitant to recommend things because everyone has different tastes in audio equipment just like they do in music. On the other hand, even if a Ross Martin DAC wasn't someones favorite (usually compared to something several times the price), I've never heard of anyone hating it.
   
  I've never heard heard the Bifrost unfortunately. It's not that I wouldn't upgrade if I found something better than the RMA DAC. But I'm satisfied enough to know that there is probably something better out there and to not try and find it. The next upgrade is T1's for me. I think my setup is worthy of them but there's only one way to find out.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


 
   
EDIT:
Almost forgot you asked about the difference between the two DAC versions. I can't really say being that I haven't heard them. I just found the email that Ross originally sent me when I requested info initially, asking him for advice on which would be more transparent. Here's his response:
   

```
as far as a dac goes just a single unit with usb (since you already have a headhone amp)would blow you away. the dual units have more inputs and maybe 1 or 2 db more of stereo separation. but it's already over 100db with the single model. i recommend the unit with the lme op amps . they rival any precision op amp around and are very transparent. i hope this helps.. thanks so much for your interest!! ross
```


----------



## adani

Thanks a lot for your response and for the info on RMA dac. Will post my initial impressions with the setup once I have Horizon assembled are ready to rock


----------



## Kamakahah

I was thinking of picking up a Horizon kit for my first DIY tube amp. It would be paired with my Mad Dogs. Has anyone tried this pairing before? How did it sound? I'm currently using a magni/modi stack.

Side question: what are your thoughts on the upcoming starlight/ember?


----------



## Micaiah

Quote: 





kamakahah said:


> I was thinking of picking up a Horizon kit for my first DIY tube amp. It would be paired with my Mad Dogs. Has anyone tried this pairing before? How did it sound? I'm currently using a magni/modi stack.
> 
> Side question: what are your thoughts on the upcoming starlight/ember?


 
  I've been thinking about getting a pair of Paradox headphones, plus I've been getting the urge to build another Garage1217 amp but of course I can't try before i buy. I'll probably just play it safe and use the money (when I have it) on Beyer T1's for my Horizon. The T50RP's/Mad Dogs/Paradox are 50 ohm headphones so the Project Sunrise II would be a better fit. The Sunrise II amp is recommended for 32-300ohm, the Horizon is recommended for 150-600ohm. I did use my AKG K702's  (62 ohms) with the Horizon and they sounded the best that I've heard them. Not sure if they would sound better with the Sunrise II but the K702's over all sound isn't really for me anyway.
   
  I emailed Garage1217 regarding powering Fostex T50RP based headphones a few weeks ago asking if there upcoming headphone amps would be a better match for the Fostex based 'phones. Their response is below:
   
_ Glad you are enjoying your Horizon! Ember will have more power than both Horizon and Sunrise II. For example around 50ohm, she will put out more than 4w. It will be quite a beast and cover 16-600ohm. Sunrise and Horizon will still be the choice for many audiophiles as they are class A designs so it comes down to what topology one prefers. And just to note, Sunrise II puts out PLENTY of power at low impedance. My T50's are out for mod right now at a buddys, prior to shipping them out, Sunrise was a flawless match for them.
 Regards,
 Jeremy_
   
  So it sounds like the Sunrise II might be worth considering for you Mad Dogs. If you do, please let us know how you like it.
   
  I would like to build the Starlight someday as a gift for someone (Ok, so maybe I'd try it out for a while before wrapping it up). It sounds like it's a cheaper option to the other amps but still very good I'm sure.
   
  The Ember evidently doesn't run in class A mode like the Horizon and Sunrise but I'm not sure how that's going to affect the sound. I would guess it might easily run power hungry headphones like Hifiman's HE-6 and other planar headphones that soak up whatever juice they are given.
   
  I just remembered Garage1217 sent out a newsletter last week. For those who didn't get it, below is a copy that includes some more info on there upcoming amps:
   
   
_News:_
_Project Starlight, the new budget legend is almost ready for release! Starlight is a low cost, Tube - Opamp hybrid which allows you to roll both 6V and 12V tubes as well as roll opamps. Starlight has variable output resistance and manual bias adjustment all in a compact chassis. Excellent quality components are used throughout such as Vishay / Dale resistors, Panasonic FC capacitors, Bourns Pro Audio potentiometers and all gold plated rca sockets, tube socket and headphone jack.. The PCB retains a beautiful gloss black mask just like our other designs. Project Starlight is designed to blow your socks off at a super affordable price! Now accepting pre-orders. Only $149.99 + shipping for a kit or $189.99 + shipping for a fully built and tested amplifier. Shipments of built amplifiers and kits expected to ship March 1st._
   
_Project Ember is almost finished. Ember will be our most advanced amplifier to date. Featuring auto bias, auto voltage selection (your tubes are now plug and play) 6v and 12V tube rolling, 3 output resistance settings, Pre-amp outputs, input gain selection and a powerful OPA output stage that can power the most demanding headphones. Overall very original to the market, nothing quite like it, just like our other designs!…_
   
  Hope that helps some.


----------



## Kamakahah

Quote: 





micaiah said:


> Spoiler: Warning%3A%20Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Thanks for the info. I wish I could see the output power/resistance for the starlight. When I asked a similar question the Mad Dogs review thread I got this informational feedback and then a bunch of nods towards the Lyr. 


paradoxper said:


> PS II can drive the Mad Dogs fine. If you're going the tube/hybrid route I'd still recommend Lyr over PS, but that's not a feasible option for everyone.
> In short, PS II has very good detailing, nice bass, good soundstage and optional tube rolling. One downside for me was the 'lack of power' which resulted in limited headroom.
> 
> Don't read that as PS II lacks the power to drive ortho's, this is just comparatively to other gear.
> ...


 

   
  I love Schiit products. My Magni/Modi are doing a fantastic job with my MDs, but i'd like to experiment with a DIY project and tube amps. So the Sunlight II seems like a good fit. More importantly, the Lyr would cost me ~$500 after taxes and shipping (which is roughly the cost of my entire current setup). The Sunrise II kit on the other hand would only be ~$205. I'm using the Alpha pads, which are supposed to be a little less power hungry than the dog pads.  I wish I had more details on the Starlight as its price fantastic. I wonder if it could drive the MDs close to the Sunrise II.
  Thanks again for the feedback.


----------



## Micaiah

The #3 post in this thread basically says the same thing in comparing the Lyr to the PS II as what they told you on the Mad Dogs thread Kamahkahah.
   
  My Horizon and Beyer DT880 combo will make my ears bleed before I run out of headroom but then they aren't planar headphones. Although I've never heard planar headphones, I know they like power. My Magnepan MMG's are planar speakers and I know they will take all the power I can give them and still handle more. I once bridged a couple amps together to power just one of my speakers. I think it was more than 400 watts I was dumping into them and they seemed to have no problem handling it. I've read of people hooking there T50RP's (or other planar headphones) into speaker amps and liking the sound a lot. http://www.head-fi.org/t/614134/is-it-true-that-modded-t50rps-specifically-lffs-paradox-mod-is-comparable-to-high-end-headphones-such-as-the-lcd2/270
   
   
  After what I've heard, I would probably gamble on the Ember as the best match for planar headphones with the large amount of power it'll have.


----------



## adani

Well, the Horizon sounds great. Very transparent and it takes away overly "metallic" taste from my music. This is my first tube amp, but reading all kind of stuff about them I was expecting to hear less detailed sound and, well, more of a warmer signature, I guess. So far this amp seems very balanced, which is great for rock/metal I usually listen to. When it burns in a little bit and I get used to its sound more, will post more impressions.
   
  And I could not express how awesome Jeremy and Frans from garage audio are. I had some trouble when assembling the unit - the guy to whom I gave it propably applied too much heat on some elements... Replies to my emails from the engineers of this amp have been really detailed and fast, some really outstanding support.


----------



## PanamaHat

Anyone know if the line-out on the Project Sunrise ii a pre-amp out or just a pass through?


----------



## Micaiah

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> Anyone know if the line-out on the Project Sunrise ii a pre-amp out or just a pass through?


 
  On the Horizon (and on the PS II I assume) it's a preamp out controlled with the volume knob. It's also not muted when 'phones are plugged in. I forgot that at midnight one night to the annoyance of my neighbors. Had my headphones on  and turned up the volume. Didn't know that I'd left my speaker amp on till I realized I shouldn't be feeling bass in my whole body.


----------



## PanamaHat

micaiah said:


> On the Horizon (and on the PS II I assume) it's a preamp out controlled with the volume knob. It's also not muted when 'phones are plugged in. I forgot that at midnight one night to the annoyance of my neighbors. Had my headphones on  and turned up the volume. Didn't know that I'd left my speaker amp on till I realized I shouldn't be feeling bass in my whole body.




Niice  and thanks for answering. Also, there's a steam kind of noise followed by a sharp key clinking type of sound that comes through my headphones when I power on the amp. Is that normal? I'm guessing its just the tube warming up (stock tube, neeed to upgrade)


----------



## Micaiah

Quote: 





panamahat said:


> Niice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Yes, I've heard that. I believe that the click is a relay that mutes the amp until the tube warms up enough to be used.
   
  Just tried it and I can't hear it through the headphones right now but I know what you mean. Maybe the hiss-click noise through the headphones is only with some tubes.


----------



## adani

Clicking is caused by relay unit, you are right, *Micaiah*


----------



## PanamaHat

Delete


----------



## adani

Has anyone tried Horizon with Mad dogs? They are planar magnetic and low impendance - but other low impendance headphones I've tried so far with it sound great.


----------



## moriez

Ember about to be released: http://www.garage1217.com/graphic_design_013.htm


----------



## Kamakahah

moriez said:


> Ember about to be released: http://www.garage1217.com/graphic_design_013.htm




Been following and waiting, very excited. Hopefully it's my next purchase.


----------



## daerron

Must say the Project Sunrise II amp makes some serious magic with the Hifiman HE-500, mine is not even burned in yet and I can't stop tapping my feet. This amp has some serious volume output!


----------



## bce22

Quote: 





daerron said:


> Must say the Project Sunrise II amp makes some serious magic with the Hifiman HE-500, mine is not even burned in yet and I can't stop tapping my feet. This amp has some serious volume output!


 
   
  im glad to hear this!
   
  my  brother bought me a Project Sunrise II for my birthday.  i already have a more than a few 12v and 6v tubes and some of them cost a pretty penny. can any of you PSII and HE-500 owners recommend ny tubes or modsthat made a difference?


----------



## Kamakahah

bce22 said:


> im glad to hear this!
> 
> my  brother bought me a Project Sunrise II for my birthday.  i already have a more than a few 12v and 6v tubes and some of them cost a pretty penny. can any of you PSII and HE-500 owners recommend ny tubes or modsthat made a difference?




I'm pretty sure that there is a project sunrise ii tube rolling thread. Probably more recommendations already there if you search it. Hope you enjoy yours.


----------



## techboy

How does ember compare to beta22 and ehha?


----------



## tomb

Quote: 





techboy said:


> How does ember compare to beta22 and ehha?


 
  Damn.  You gotta be kidding ... the volume pot and single tube alone ought to tell you the answer to that question.


----------



## jockstick

I'm considering the PS2 for my Mad Dogs. Is there a more detailed sound review of this somewhere?


----------



## Suguru103

PS III for HD600 anyone? My budget can't reach the Horizon, how would the Sunrise do?


----------

