# Proteus Cable, fake warning



## Prog Rock Man

EDIT, the makers of Proteus Purist Audio Design state that the cable shown on the Japanese site linked to is a fake, explaining why there is a Belden cable inside a cable that costs £2500 a metre. Until someone is brave enough to take another PAD cable apart, we should take them at their word.
   
  The Proteus XLR which at highendcable.co.uk costs £2500 for a metre
   
   
  http://www.highendcable.co.uk/Purist%20Audio%20Design%20Proteus%20Provectus%20Cables.htm
   
   
   
     
   
   
   
   
   
  The answer is Belden cable that is sold here as a non paired computer cable for $0.74
   
  http://www.sjmediasystem.com/9535.html
   
   
       
   
  from a Japanese site that took one apart.....
   
  http://www.shu-ks.com/zakki/lemoxlr.html
   
  I think that all cable makers should have to provide examples of what goes inside their cables.


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## Steve Eddy

Reminds me of JPS Labs, who got busted back in 2004 selling a stock, $6 Eupen power cable that was dressed up in Techflex and heatshrink for $350. They were even selling two "versions" of them, one for analogue gear and one for digital gear, claiming they had two different RF filters in them (molded into the plug). However Eupen confirmed that they made just the one cable with just the one filter in it.
   
  se


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## Happy Camper

Suggestion? The seller is suggesting to the buyer that cable has a sonic value of X. The amount of desire the buyer has to believe the suggestion completes the act. Buyers aren't being kidnapped and held until paying the ransom. The buyer has some accountability here. There are sonically different cables. The value of the differences is in the ear of the buyer. But nobody wants to tell someone that they are fools to put such value to the product. I cite baseball owners and salary regulation. They will overpay to gain stature or perceived value over the actual performance of the player. Human nature and ego.


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## scootermafia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHS-fOaO87w


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## Chromako

Unicorn blood. Duh!


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## Lenni

I find it hard to believe they're selling a $0.74 Belden cable for $2500. this's some serious allegation. is this what is really happening here? I can't read Japanese and even with Google translator I can't quite understand what is all the site about. is it possible that the deselected  cable was actually one he made, and not the original? just wondering. it would be worth if a Japanese speaker would send an email to shuks@jcom.home.ne.jp and ask some clarifications. I'd give them a call, but I couldn't find any contact number.
   
   
  x2 Happy Camper
   
   
   
  [edit]: I've sent PAD an email pointing to this thread. let's see if they send a reply


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## Lenni

I've got a reply from PDA:
   
   
_Hi,_
_is this what you use for your $2500+ cables: a $0.74 Belden cable? http://www.shu-ks.com/_http://www.shu-ks.com/zakki/lemoxlr.html_zakki/lemoxlr.html_












    
_please explain_
   

    
_thanks,_
   
   
_Hello Massimo,_

_What you show is not what is in a Proteus Provectus cable,  this was a from threat in Japan that was done from a counterfeit Proteus cable picture made back in 1994.  That is the reason we dropped the Proteus line due to the counterfieting taking place.

 Thanks,

 Jim_   
   
   
  I've to say I feel pretty disgusted with PRM atm


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## scootermafia

Looks like there is more than one side to this story.  I was feeling some disbelief when I saw that.


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## Prog Rock Man

The Japanese site linked to shows two other mods of cables
   
  http://www.shu-ks.com/zakki/cd.htm
   
  http://www.shu-ks.com/zakki/padsp.html
   
  and it is pretty comprehensive site dedicated to hifi and someone who likes to take stuff apart
   
  http://www.shu-ks.com/zakki/viola.html
   
  Google translate worked well enough for me to show that in modding a cable that has all the appearence of Proteus cables, including those on sale now, it was found to contain a Belden marked cable. I have emailed the seller who has passed on that email to Purist Audio Design, but no response to that.
   
  As to dropping the Proteus line.......
   
  http://www.puristaudiodesign.com/products/proteus/interconnects.htm
   
  ....it is still on sale today and looking exactly as it does in the Japanese site.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Google translate worked well enough for me to show that in modding a cable that has all the appearence of Proteus cables, including those on sale now, it was found to contain a Belden marked cable. I have emailed the seller who has passed on that email to Purist Audio Design, but no response to that.
> 
> As to dropping the Proteus line.......
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. Show me a picture of a PAD cable from an authorized dealer that's been pulled apart and has belden wire in it, and I'll believe it. Companies in China make knock offs of Audioquest, Siltech, etc all the time, because it's extremely easy to make fakes and factory prices are expensive. I've seen "Oyaide" plugs selling for $15 that look pretty much exactly like the real thing. If I remember right, Parts Connexion was even fooled into buying fake plugs.
   
  Purist has also over the years re-introduced an old name into a new design, and that's what they did with the current Proteus Provectus, which is not the same as their Proteus cable from 15 years ago. Purist Aqueous is another old name that was recently resurrected for Aqueous Anniversary a few years ago, and now Aqueous Aureus. Just because they use the same black nylon on the outside doesn't mean it's the same cable underneath. Purist cables aren't my favorites because they tend to be colored in one direction or another rather than trying to be neutral, but I would be stunned if the Dominus or Canorus had bulk wire in them, as that would mean that Purist has figured out how to compete with the likes of Stealth Indra with bulk wire.


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## cifani090

I really dont see this $2500 cable business staying afloat much longer. Their is not even any cryo'd-ness in it


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## Lenni

more misinformation and random bs... as usual 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Google translate worked well enough for me to show that in modding a cable that has all the appearence of Proteus cables, including those on sale now, it was found to contain a Belden marked cable. I have emailed the seller who has passed on that email to Purist Audio Design, but no response to that.
> 
> As to dropping the Proteus line.......
> 
> ...


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## Uncle Erik

Aw, I was hoping for another garden hose.

So the manufacturer claims the cable was "counterfeit," do they?

Well I'll wager that no one would be able to hear the difference between a "counterfeit" one and the real deal. Nor would anyone be able to measure a difference.


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## Mochan

Well OF COURSE they would deny it.
   
  I find it funny that you are more willing to believe and stick up for a company that sells* $4000 cables*. I mean I am sure in this world there are people with money to burn, but really? You'd rather defend a company that is clearly swimming in snake oil? No cable is worth $4000. Period.
  
  Quote: 





lenni said:


> I've got a reply from PDA:
> 
> 
> _Hi,_
> ...


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## Teejaay

i would pick the belden over a real proteus lol cable anyday.


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## Prog Rock Man

The answer would be for a new cable to be opened up to see what is inside. Maybe it is not Belden's cheapest, maybe it is something else.
   
  This report and others, along with reports from Belden themselves about making cables for others just makes me suspicious of what goes inside bespoke cables selling for thousands with thick sheething.


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## Jon L

Now I've GOT to try that Belden wire 
   
  Kidding aside, It would be impossible to conclude one way or the other based on pictures and information available so far.  As much as I dislike high-end cable companies that charge WAY too much, if the Japanese site is true, it would be such obvious and slam-dunk fraud, so easy to prove on the part of law-enforcement that it's difficult to imagine an established company like Purist actually do such a dumb thing.  
   
  For example, on Purist's site:
   


               [size=xx-small] [/size]   [size=x-small]Technical Specifications [/size]
 [size=xx-small]Design Goals: High performance to cost ratio 
 Conductor: Solid Core 
 Metals: Copper Single Crystal 
 Shielding: Foil with drain wire 
 Dielectric: PVC 
 Dampening Material: Fluid 
 Gauge (effective): 22 AWG 
 Capacitance: 170 pF/m ±15% (pin-to-shield) 
 Resistance: 13.2 mO/m (conductor) 
 Estimated Break-In Time: 200 Hours 
 Cable Diameter: Single-Ended: 1/2" OD (One Channel) 
 Balanced: 3/4" OD (One Channel) 
 Material Treatment: Triple (3x) Cryomag© [/size]
 
   
  Purist lists solid-core, single crystal copper wire, whereas Belden 9535 is stranded tinned-copper, not single crystal.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> The answer would be for a new cable to be opened up to see what is inside. Maybe it is not Belden's cheapest, maybe it is something else.
> 
> This report and others, along with reports from Belden themselves about making cables for others just makes me suspicious of what goes inside bespoke cables selling for thousands with thick sheething.


 

 Exactly. Show me a brand new, dealer purchased Purist cable that has Belden wire in it. I'm just not buying in any way that this cable on the Japanese site is real. Purist has been around over 20 years, you really think they would be *THAT *stupid? And nobody would find out until now?
   
  Purist doesn't necessarily make their own wire in house. A lot of cable companies don't. Extremely finely drawn, hyper pure Ohno continuous cast copper or hybrid alloys of gold/copper/silver of the type that Purist uses are _very _difficult and expensive to make. This isn't the contractor's grade crap that you get at the hardware store, and many high-end companies source their raw wire from wire makers. This is no different from any other industry.
   
  The thickness in Purist's case comes from their shielding - they use either fluid, or stuff they call Ferox and Contego wrapped around the cable. In some cases a thick cable is all for show (see Virtual Dynamics), but that isn't the case here. Whether you think high-end cables can make any difference or not is completely irrelevant here, we're not arguing that and it's frankly irritating that *every post about cables *has a denier pop up just to shout *ALL CABLES ARE STUPID AND YOU'RE STUPID. *
   
  Guess what, we KNOW your opinion already. Why don't you keep it to yourself.


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## TheAttorney

What strikes me about this thread is the hypocritical nature of the cable skeptics, who are so busy trying to score points, and trying so hard to always be right, that they replace careful, rigorous and fair investigation with obviously biased speculation, innuendo and wild assumptions. Not very scientific at all.


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## Mochan

Your post is pretty hypocritical as well, the people who are replacing investigation with zeal are the people who are defending the Purist Proteus cable, saying it's "absolutely insane and* STUPID *for that to be the case it obviously isn't true."  I didn't see any investigating there. 
   
  So you can get off the high horse we're all wildly speculating here, unless someone actually buys a $4000 just to chop it up. At least the Japanese site actually had the balls to do just that. Do you?


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## Dev Avidon

Quote: 





jon l said:


> Now I've GOT to try that Belden wire
> 
> Kidding aside, It would be impossible to conclude one way or the other based on pictures and information available so far.  As much as I dislike high-end cable companies that charge WAY too much, if the Japanese site is true, it would be such obvious and slam-dunk fraud, so easy to prove on the part of law-enforcement that it's difficult to imagine an established company like Purist actually do such a dumb thing.
> 
> ...


 

 As I'm an MOT, I don't get involved with this sort of thing usually, but just to throw it out there, as a point of reference, any well designed 75 ohm digital coax cable (basic RG-59/RG-6 stuff that you can buy in bulk from a hardware store) should sport a capacitance number somewhere in the range of 50 pF/m conductor-shield (as low capacitance as possible is considered electrically desirable in analog interconnects).  Also, for what it's worth, Belden (and many other major cable manufacturers) often tin the copper because it has a negligible impact on the conductivity of the wire, and prevents it from corroding (which has a not-so-negligible impact).


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





mochan said:


> Your post is pretty hypocritical as well, the people who are replacing investigation with zeal are the people who are defending the Purist Proteus cable, saying it's "absolutely insane and* STUPID *for that to be the case it obviously isn't true."  I didn't see any investigating there.
> 
> So you can get off the high horse we're all wildly speculating here, unless someone actually buys a $4000 just to chop it up. At least the Japanese site actually had the balls to do just that. Do you?


 

 Except what they chopped up was a $100 cable from China.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Except what they chopped up was a $100 cable from China.


 

 The Chinese are using Belden cable to make fakes? Or is it fake Belden too?
   
  That would be pretty funny. Using fake Belden cable to make a fake Purist Audio Design cable.
   
  se


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> The Chinese are using Belden cable to make fakes? Or is it fake Belden too?
> 
> That would be pretty funny. Using fake Belden cable to make a fake Purist Audio Design cable.
> 
> se


 
   
  Hehehe. I don't think it's fake Belden, if it was the printing would probably be misshapen or misspelled. Anyway, why even bother to make fake Belden when the real thing is so cheap? That's like faking a $10 Timex, why bother? Whatever wire is inside doesn't matter, they just have to knock off the PAD look, and then try and entice people with absurdly low priced sales.
   
  Siltech counterfeiting got to the point that the counterfeiters actually invented their own model - the "SQ-88B" seen in this auction. Siltech has never made a cable called the SQ88B, but you will see it advertised for sale. This 100% authentic Siltech cable is 100% crap, and probably has Belden wire in it too. Or maybe fake Belden 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 http://cgi.ebay.com/Siltech-SQ-88B-G3-Interconnects-WBT-0101-Cable-/270782020238?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0bddba8e


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## Uncle Erik

theattorney said:


> What strikes me about this thread is the hypocritical nature of the cable skeptics, who are so busy trying to score points, and trying so hard to always be right, that they replace careful, rigorous and fair investigation with obviously biased speculation, innuendo and wild assumptions. Not very scientific at all.


Are you saying that the scientific approach to cables is the correct one?

That cable believers _don't_ make their purchases based on "obviously biased speculation, innuendo and wild assumptions"?

Because all I see are people making purchases based on folklore, oral tradition and superstition.

You don't need science to debunk unscientific arguments.

Also, what's so wrong about taking some pleasure in catching a fraud with their pants down? This "outrage" didn't crop up when one "high end" manufacturer was shown to be repackaging Oppo DVD players into fancy cases for four digit prices, or when Mark Levinson was caught rebranding cheap Chinese amps and substantially marking them up.

Face it, fraud pulses through the veins of audio. It isn't just the cables, you find bogus sources and amps everywhere. The difference with cables is that they're almost 100% fraud, save for the few that don't make extraordinary and thoroughly unsupported claims.


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## TheAttorney

Mochan, I think I’ll stay on my high horse a little longer.
   
  I’ve never previously heard of this company and I don’t care if I ever come across any of their products. But I do care about fairness. Iif an innocent-until-proven-guilty person or company is to lose business or, in the extreme case, their livelihood as result of being publicly vilified, then at least the vilification should be true and accurate.
   
  Prog rock man’s first post was interesting – I thought we may get an insight here into the high end cable business. And he correctly challenged the seller/company to respond – he beat me to that one. But when the company came back with an entirely plausible explanation, the thread started to go downhill. Instead of pursuing the investigation to get to the truth, some people just reverted to lazy, biased put downs and tired old cynical speculation. I was even waiting for UE to bring up the coat hanger story.
   
  So, it was disappointing that a promising topic got diluted by biased speculation, and hypocritical for sound scientists to make judgements without substantiated facts.
   
  UE, of course fraud exists in ALL walks of life, and of course  subjective claims have severe limitations, and I hate the way high end prices of all components are just getting ridiculous. But we don’t need to bring in the whole scope of the hifi world in order to make one specific point. It just dilutes the point and diffuses the argument.  
   
  (The Attorney now gets off his high horse).


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## frenchbat

For the record, the original article in japanese (from 2005) is about a change of connectors, to allow the author to use the PAD with his Mark Levinson amp. At no point the author is talking about any "fake chinese cable", or anything wrong with his cable. Also there's no ambiguity, it clearly states that the PAD cable is made out of Belden M9535.
   
  Given this context, IMO the answer from PAD is a bit strange, if not overly defensive. Also knowing a bit about the japanese market, they don't buy from Ebay for that kind of money, as they can get the nice service of brick and mortar shops, where they can audition etc ... 
   
  Just my 2 cents.


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## Uncle Erik

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The burden of proof is on those making claims.


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## Lenni

I have never heard of PAD cables before, and their prices are way out of my budget, so I don’t worry about them at all. It’s about misinformation and finding out other sides of the allegations. you guys are on a mission... I'm not. I’m all against snake-oil, but I don’t believe what happened there (15yrs ago) is real. For example, I once bought an AQ’s speaker cable from eBay, before I knew any better, and noticed it had a spelling error; after some enquires turned out it was a fake. If it wasn’t for the spelling I would’ve never known. Show me a genuine PAD cable containing bulk cable, and I’ll change my mind.
   
  Whether the PAD cables are worth $4000 or not, please read comment #4. anyway that's not the topic, but If you think you can do better at a fraction of the cost, go ahead and do it. 

  Quote: 





mochan said:


> Well OF COURSE they would deny it.
> 
> I find it funny that you are more willing to believe and stick up for a company that sells* $4000 cables*. I mean I am sure in this world there are people with money to burn, but really? You'd rather defend a company that is clearly swimming in snake oil? No cable is worth $4000. Period.


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## fatcat28037

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Aw, I was hoping for another garden hose.
> 
> So the manufacturer claims the cable was "counterfeit," do they?
> 
> Well I'll wager that no one would be able to hear the difference between a "counterfeit" one and the real deal. Nor would anyone be able to measure a difference.


 


 The operative word here being *HEAR*
   
  A Cable Reality Thread, backed with photographic documentation, could become the "Bernie Getz" factor to cable manufacturers/marketers and cable buying audiophiles.


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## endless402

lots of ebay cables are fake. cardas and AQ are prob the most popular ones to fake
   
  just take a look at the cardas site to see all the variations, they all look correct until you cut it apart


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





endless402 said:


> lots of ebay cables are fake. cardas and AQ are prob the most popular ones to fake
> 
> just take a look at the cardas site to see all the variations, they all look correct until you cut it apart


 

 According to Siltech, 90% of their cables on eBay are fakes. Newer Siltech cables are more complicated designs, but the old ones were just light blue jackets with white printing. Anybody can copy that, and apparently copy the box and "cable manual" as well. Buyer beware.


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## tk3

Quote:


theattorney said:


> I’ve never previously heard of this company and I don’t care if I ever come across any of their products. But I do care about fairness. Iif an innocent-until-proven-guilty person or company is to lose business or, in the extreme case, their livelihood as result of being publicly vilified, then at least the vilification should be true and accurate.
> 
> Prog rock man’s first post was interesting – I thought we may get an insight here into the high end cable business. And he correctly challenged the seller/company to respond – he beat me to that one. But when the company came back with an entirely plausible explanation, the thread started to go downhill. Instead of pursuing the investigation to get to the truth, some people just reverted to lazy, biased put downs and tired old cynical speculation. I was even waiting for UE to bring up the coat hanger story.


 
   
  It's amusing to mention "fairness" when we're talking about someone selling cables costing 2500 GBP though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Except what they chopped up was a $100 cable from China.


 

 How did you come to this conclusion?
  The link in the OP's post mostly describes the replacement of plugs he did on that particular cable, and at the end it just mentions that the insides of that cable has the Belden cable.
  Nowhere does it mention whether the cable is real or not.
  I wonder why you are so defensive about this company anyway, looking at this post and the other one with all the bolded words seems that this something personal to you.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





tk3 said:


> Quote:
> 
> It's amusing to mention "fairness" when we're talking about someone selling cables costing 2500 GBP though.
> 
> ...


 

 As opposed to what Rowland charges for his glorified chip amps? What were talking about here is not whether a high price tag for a cable is some sort of insult to humanity. That's not the discussion - nor is whether differences between bulk wire and high-end cables are audible. Again, not the discussion, that's why I get irritated when cable haters take over every thread about cables and _make _it the discussion.
   
  The cable on that site has all the signs of a typical Chinese knock off. It's an outdated model that Purist hasn't made for years, and it's got the same Belden wire in it that anyone can get at an electronics store - say somebody who might be making counterfeit cables. If Purist decided they wanted to rip people off by charging thousands for a cable that cost $5 to make, you don't think somebody might say "Hey guys, maybe we should get bulk wire that doesn't have the brand and model stamped all over it. Maybe since we're claiming this is solid core, maybe we should get that". Nope, they were so lazy that they just shoved stranded, retail Belden in there, assuming that no one might _ever _want to re-terminate one of their cables.


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## .Sup

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> The Chinese are using Belden cable to make fakes? Or is it fake Belden too?
> 
> That would be pretty funny. Using fake Belden cable to make a fake Purist Audio Design cable.
> 
> se


 

 hehe what you said made me laugh quite a bit


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## cifani090

Quote: 





lenni said:


> I have never heard of PAD cables before, and their prices are way out of my budget, so I don’t worry about them at all. It’s about misinformation and finding out other sides of the allegations. you guys are on a mission... I'm not. I’m all against snake-oil, but I don’t believe what happened there (15yrs ago) is real. For example, I once bought an AQ’s speaker cable from eBay, before I knew any better, and noticed it had a spelling error; after some enquires turned out it was a fake. If it wasn’t for the spelling I would’ve never known. Show me a genuine PAD cable containing bulk cable, and I’ll change my mind.
> 
> Whether the PAD cables are worth $4000 or not, please read comment #4. anyway that's not the topic, but If you think you can do better at a fraction of the cost, go ahead and do it.


 

 All jokes aside, and audio skeptics aside, having a 3/4-1 inch cable is a hell of alot cooler to look at with cool looking wrap, and huge connectors, than a chinese made rubber crapped cable.


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## El_Doug

I'm just wondering, if the costs of these cables is really driven by an expensive wire-drawing process utilizing expensive materials, and these wires are solid-core, then why is the XLR version only $100 more than the RCA cables?  Surely the XLR uses 50% more wire in it?


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## .Sup

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> I'm just wondering, if the costs of these cables is really driven by an expensive wire-drawing process utilizing expensive materials, and these wires are solid-core, then why is the XLR version only $100 more than the RCA cables?  Surely the XLR uses 50% more wire in it?


 


  wouldn't it use 33.3% more wire?
   
  Edit: you probably weren't counting ground. I was puzzled before why you would say 50% more


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## Mochan

Quote: 





lenni said:


> I have never heard of PAD cables before, and their prices are way out of my budget, so I don’t worry about them at all. It’s about misinformation and finding out other sides of the allegations. you guys are on a mission... I'm not. I’m all against snake-oil, but I don’t believe what happened there (15yrs ago) is real. For example, I once bought an AQ’s speaker cable from eBay, before I knew any better, and noticed it had a spelling error; after some enquires turned out it was a fake. If it wasn’t for the spelling I would’ve never known. Show me a genuine PAD cable containing bulk cable, and I’ll change my mind.
> 
> Whether the PAD cables are worth $4000 or not, please read comment #4. anyway that's not the topic, but If you think you can do better at a fraction of the cost, go ahead and do it.


 

 Let's not get into a single theory per thread mindset.
   
  This topic was originally about fraudulent Purist cables.
   
  But there is no rule against introducing a new subject -- $4,000 cables being worth buying. Which in my mind, they clearly aren't. If you are against snake oil as you say, then you should agree to this idea.
   
  As for the original topic on whether Purist's cables are fraudulent or not -- maybe, maybe not. We both speculate on that one. But whether they are or not, I'm happy to defame them because buying $4k cables is ridiculous. But sure, we can discuss that thread further if you wish -- but I don't see you trying to further that discussion yourself. Your last few posts are merely a reaction to the new thread subject. If you want to keep this discussion focused on the truth of the Proteus Cable, then by all means, steer the discussion back there with a well-thought of argument. If not, then don't complain about where the thread is going.
   
   
  Now on to the "other" new topic that came about: is this "fair" and am I destroying someone's livelihood?
   
   
  Quote: 





theattorney said:


> I’ve never previously heard of this company and I don’t care if I ever come across any of their products. But I do care about fairness. Iif an innocent-until-proven-guilty person or company is to lose business or, in the extreme case, their livelihood as result of being publicly vilified, then at least the vilification should be true and accurate.
> 
> Prog rock man’s first post was interesting – I thought we may get an insight here into the high end cable business. And he correctly challenged the seller/company to respond – he beat me to that one. But when the company came back with an entirely plausible explanation, the thread started to go downhill. Instead of pursuing the investigation to get to the truth, some people just reverted to lazy, biased put downs and tired old cynical speculation. I was even waiting for UE to bring up the coat hanger story.
> 
> ...






  If you care about fairness, is it fair that someone is selling a product for $4k when it in reality is worth no more than $100 at most, maybe even less than that?  Is it fair to the salary man who, caught up by marketing and hype, scrimps and sacrifices daily lunches, gets yelled at by his wife, etc. just to save up and buy said product because it is "heaven on earth" and his life won't be complete without it?
   
  You have to admit, in our hobby lots of people do just that to buy an overpriced accessory or piece of gear. If you want to talk fairness, I want to protect people from getting scammed and down with the person doing the scamming. If you have the balls to sell a cable for $4k better have the data and real world performance to back it up, and if not woe be you. Problem is these kinds of proof don't exist -- that is the "fair" here. I don't think it's "fair" that someone sells a cable for $4k and gets away with it. 
   
  I rather protect the consumer than the vendor. Anyone charging $4k for a cable is bound to take a backlash, and I rather tear down such stupidity before more people get scammed. What gets me is that there are actually people who have been keeping such a company in business for decades.
   
  I don't think this dilutes the argument, and really how much more of the original thread topic can go on without someone hear actually buying said cable and chopping it up? This wasn't a promising thread at all -- what exactly were you expecting from this thread?  You mention that you were looking to see some insight into the High End Cable Business, right?  I thought we were doing just that. And we're showing that it's bollocks. But clearly you're not happy with that insight, and somehow prefer not to turn to iconoclasm. Perhaps you would rather preserve the status quo by keeping these High End Cables Vendors on a pedestal? I have no such inclination.


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## Head Injury

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> I'm just wondering, if the costs of these cables is really driven by an expensive wire-drawing process utilizing expensive materials, and these wires are solid-core, then why is the XLR version only $100 more than the RCA cables?  Surely the XLR uses 50% more wire in it?


 

 What a bargain! I'm gonna buy a couple.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> I'm just wondering, if the costs of these cables is really driven by an expensive wire-drawing process utilizing expensive materials, and these wires are solid-core, then why is the XLR version only $100 more than the RCA cables?  Surely the XLR uses 50% more wire in it?


 
   
  Not necessarily. While it's possible to make a perfectly functional RCA cable using only a single wire with a shield used for return (90% of dirt cheap cables are made this way), most high-end cables are elaborate, multi-conductor designs because a braided shield is not exactly the best sounding thing in the world to use as your return conductor. All but Audioquests' cheapest interconnects for example are three wire designs. The only difference between the RCA and XLR versions are the connectors. Multiple conductors and their arrangement (geometry) inside a cable are critical for good sound, and will also produce different measurements. Four wires run in parallel vs. four of the same wires in a star-quad twist will show different inductance and capacitance.


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## dd051

Quote: 





mochan said:


> Well OF COURSE they would deny it.
> 
> I find it funny that you are more willing to believe and stick up for a company that sells* $4000 cables*. I mean I am sure in this world there are people with money to burn, but really? You'd rather defend a company that is clearly swimming in snake oil? No cable is worth $4000. Period.
> 
> ...


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## scootermafia

Stealth cables scare me, of all the high end cables out there, they look like they truly are hard to build and get parts for, I can't imagine building a cable out of liquid-metal alloy, for example.  I talked to the owner and they told me that they really do make the cables themselves, in house, with those titanium and carbon fiber connectors done in house too - pretty amazing.
   
  The vast majority of head-fiers revile the notion of a $4000+ cable.  The good news for the high end cable manufacturers is that head-fi is not their target market.  However, if any of you were putting together a million dollar audio system, you would probably have Stealth on your short list of interconnects - if your system is that high end, then it doesn't make any sense not to consider/demo it.


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## Somnambulist

My view, ignoring all the science (which I take seriously), is simply that if studios aren't using esoteric cables in the recording/mixing/mastering/whatever of the music we all listen to, then I don't see the point in me using them either, even if I was rolling in money and had a big listening room and some Grande Utopia BEs staring me in the face. The only thing I like about some of them is they _look _nice, but if you're paying $4k for a cable based on looks then you need your head examined.


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## scootermafia

It is correct that studios don't always use super-high-end cables, so the recorded material as it is put to CD or SACD is the starting block, you can't improve upon it unless you have your own studio with the master tapes or something.  However, the rationale is that by having the best possible audio system, you can get as close to an unaltered picture of the original recording as possible, with a $1million system sounding hyper-real and an iPod with iBuds being considerably farther from the truth.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> Stealth cables scare me, of all the high end cables out there, they look like they truly are hard to build and get parts for, I can't imagine building a cable out of liquid-metal alloy, for example.  I talked to the owner and they told me that they really do make the cables themselves, in house, with those titanium and carbon fiber connectors done in house too - pretty amazing.


 

 Stealth cables are awesome, particularly Indra and Sakra which are very unique and some of the absolute best cables on the market. The connectors are not the off the shelf stuff from WBT, Acrolink, Furutech, or even Bocchino that most other companies use. It's all boutique stuff.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





somnambulist said:


> My view, ignoring all the science (which I take seriously), is simply that if studios aren't using esoteric cables in the recording/mixing/mastering/whatever of the music we all listen to, then I don't see the point in me using them either, even if I was rolling in money and had a big listening room and some Grande Utopia BEs staring me in the face. The only thing I like about some of them is they _look _nice, but if you're paying $4k for a cable based on looks then you need your head examined.


 

 As was already said, you get the best recording you can, whether that's 180g or 200g audiophile vinyl, a high-res master WAV file, or just a Mofi gold CD. It's a constant. You can't go back and improve the mastering, all you can do is do as little damage as you can to what's there. If you're connecting your Focal Grand Utopia Be's to your Soulution or Boulder amplifiers with two dollar zip cord from Radioshack, you need your head examined. I'm sure Focal themselves would tell you that.


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## endless402

Quote: 





somnambulist said:


> My view, ignoring all the science (which I take seriously), is simply that if studios aren't using esoteric cables in the recording/mixing/mastering/whatever of the music we all listen to, then I don't see the point in me using them either, even if I was rolling in money and had a big listening room and some Grande Utopia BEs staring me in the face. The only thing I like about some of them is they _look _nice, but if you're paying $4k for a cable based on looks then you need your head examined.


 


  some studios do use nice cables
   
  JVC / K2HD uses harmonix at their XRCD mastering studio


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## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Exactly. Show me a brand new, dealer purchased Purist cable that has Belden wire in it. I'm just not buying in any way that this cable on the Japanese site is real. Purist has been around over 20 years, you really think they would be *THAT *stupid? And nobody would find out until now?
> 
> Purist doesn't necessarily make their own wire in house. A lot of cable companies don't. Extremely finely drawn, hyper pure Ohno continuous cast copper or hybrid alloys of gold/copper/silver of the type that Purist uses are _very _difficult and expensive to make. This isn't the contractor's grade crap that you get at the hardware store, and many high-end companies source their raw wire from wire makers. This is no different from any other industry.
> 
> ...


 

 Hear hear...
   
  X 2
   
  Peete.


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## El_Doug

rca cables use 2 conductors, xlr's use 3.  3 is 50% more than 2
  
  Quote: 





.sup said:


> wouldn't it use 33.3% more wire?
> 
> Edit: you probably weren't counting ground. I was puzzled before why you would say 50% more


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## TheAttorney

Quote: 





mochan said:


> If you care about fairness, is it fair that someone is selling a product for $4k when it in reality is worth no more than $100 at most, maybe even less than that?  Is it fair to the salary man who, caught up by marketing and hype, scrimps and sacrifices daily lunches, gets yelled at by his wife...
> 
> I want to protect people from getting scammed and down with the person doing the scamming.


 
   
  (The Attorney gets back on his high horse and...)
  
  The consumer has a huge range of choice - from the bundled freebee cable up to $30k+. With all sorts of well made and sensibly priced cables in between. And all price levels of cables have their supporters and their detractors. That's what I call fair. The point at which a high priced purchase becomes foolish is entirely a matter of perspective -  and how rich that person is.
   
  The guy who is about to spend $4k on a cable does not need your help. He really doesn't. Not even a little bit. He's not asking for your help and he certainly isn't going to thank you for your sincere intervention. A guy who has $4k to spend on a cable has already demonstrated that he is financially astute, or just plain rich. A guy who has $4k to spend on a cable is not taken in by marketing hype - he bases his decision primarily on listening experience. The only people who seem to read marketing blurb are the cable skeptics. They do this in order get into their favourite state of mind, which is to be very, very angry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
   
  There may well be the rare guy who spends $4k on a cable at the expense of feeding and clothing his children. That's what's called an addict, who requires a level of help that you have no skills to provide.
   
  If you want to help somebody, there are millions people in this world who could do with your help right now. The guy with the £4k cable comes a very long way down that list.
   
  (The Attorney gets off his high horse hopefully for the last time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> rca cables use 2 conductors, xlr's use 3.  3 is 50% more than 2


 

 Not necessarily.
   
  RCA cables are also commonly made using shielded twisted pair cable, same as is commonly used for XLR cables.
   
  se


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## dd051

Quote: 





theattorney said:


> A guy who has $4k to spend on a cable is not taken in by marketing hype - he bases his decision primarily on listening experienc


 
   
  Nah, he may well be taken by marketing hype.   If you buy a product, you're also buying marketing.
   
  Reading reviews is easy enough ; so is browsing on audiogon or paying a consultant - all things which can easily be done with enough money


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## Prog Rock Man

I bought a X-CANV2 amp about 10 years ago. About three years ago there appeared to be a problem with it, so I sent it to a compnay who do mods. I thought it would nice to upgrade and repair at the same time. I was e-mailed to be told that inside the V2 was the circuit board from the original X-CANS.
   
  I contacted Musical Fidelity and sent them photos of the amp, circuit board and serial nons. I was contacted in person by Anthony Michaelson the owner of MF to thank me and apologise. He gets his amps put together in Taiwan and he blamed the factory's quality control, stating that they must have been putting the old circuit boards into the new amp.
   
  Here I did what I did with MF and made contact at first with the company that sells the cables, who passed my e-mail on. Before there was a chance to do anymore the makers of Proteus, Purist Audio Design were e-mailed direct and replied that the cable was a fake.
   
  Without any other evidence I will take both MF and PAD at their word, it was a factory quality control error for the amp and a fake for the cable.
   
  I have altered the thread's title to reflect that.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Prog Rock Man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> He gets his amps put together in Taiwan and he blamed the factory's quality control, stating that they must have been putting the old circuit boards into the new amp.


 

 Friend of mind recently ordered a 3,500 foot spool of cotton braid from a company in Taiwan.
   
  He was rather upset when he received his order.
   
  Apparently this is their idea of a "spool."
   

   
  A 10 inch diameter "cotton ball."
   
  se


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





el_doug said:


> rca cables use 2 conductors, xlr's use 3.  3 is 50% more than 2


 

 Again, this is not correct. The minimum amount of conductors for an RCA cable is 1 (signal). The minimum amount for an XLR cable is 2 (hot, neutral). Those are just the minimums. The maximum number is only limited by how many individual conductors you can manage to solder to the connector. Want to use 4 wires? 6? 8? No problem. At that point the connector *does not matter, *because multiple wires are used for signal/return or hot/neutral/ground. The only difference is the plug. This is why an expensive XLR cable may only cost a little bit more than an RCA cable (or in some cases costs the same). You aren't getting 50% free.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Again, this is not correct. The minimum amount of conductors for an RCA cable is 1 (signal). The minimum amount for an XLR cable is 2 (hot, neutral). Those are just the minimums.


 
   
  Um, the minimum number of conductors for both an RCA and XLR cable is two.
   
  se


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Um, the minimum number of conductors for both an RCA and XLR cable is two.
> 
> se


 

 The shield in a coaxial cable acts as the return/ground, but it's not a traditional conductor. Perhaps I should've said 1 + shield.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> The shield in a coaxial cable acts as the return/ground, but it's not a traditional conductor. Perhaps I should've said 1 + shield.


 

 It's every bit as much a "traditional conductor" as the two conductors in an XLR cable.
   
  There is no requirement that an RCA cable be coaxial or that it be shielded.
   
  Both RCA and XLR interfaces require a minimum of two traditional conductors.
   
  se


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> It's every bit as much a "traditional conductor" as the two conductors in an XLR cable.
> 
> There is no requirement that an RCA cable be coaxial or that it be shielded.
> 
> ...


 

 Would you make a cable out of just braided shields? No, but technically you could if you wanted to. Any sort of metal for + and - will work. See coat hanger. If you have a 3-wire, braided cable with a shield, you would not call that a 4 conductor cable, even though the shield would be attached to ground along with the ground wire. 
   
  The shield can take on the job of return/ground when there is not a traditional conductor there to do that job. I still wouldn't call it a traditional conductor.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> The shield can take on the job of return/ground when there is not a traditional conductor there to do that job. I still wouldn't call it a traditional conductor.


 
   
  Why do you keep making reference to "shield"? The term is irrelevant to this particular discussion.
   
  Again, both RCA and XLR interfaces require a minimum of two traditional conductors. Shielding is optional in both cases.
   
  And just to remind you what this particular discussion is, it has to do with your following claim:
   
_The minimum amount of conductors for an RCA cable is 1 (signal). The minimum amount for an XLR cable is 2 (hot, neutral)._
   
  se


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## Jon L

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Friend of mind recently ordered a 3,500 foot spool of cotton braid from a company in Taiwan.
> 
> He was rather upset when he received his order.
> 
> ...


 

 LOL, that is one of the funniest things I've seen in some time.  Thanks.  At least your friend shouldn't have too much trouble pulling off the end and cut for use; he'll just need to devise a holder/dispenser of some type for that ball


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## frenchbat

Wow !?! So that's it, it's fake, end of story ?
   
  Nevermind the fact that the original article doesn't mention anything about a fake cable, nor the fact that the owner actually bought another PAD cable one year later ?
   
  Now if that was me, and I was thinking something was wrong with my 4000$ cable, I wouldn't go back to the same manufacturer for anything.


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## scootermafia

I can't believe they had the balls to send you that.
   
  RCAs by design don't need to have an external shield.  Some that are based off coax cable use a shield as the return.  XLR is supposed to have a shield that is tubular and goes around the twisted pair of conductors inside; the shield probably should not be a traditional conductor since the point of it is to pick up interference and drain it off.  You can put a shield on an RCA cable all the same, but you only connect it at one end to drain it, as you don't want the shield to be the return conductor as well for the RCA, and there isn't a dedicated pin just for the shield like on the XLR.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Why do you keep making reference to "shield"? The term is irrelevant to this particular discussion.


 

 I think we're just arguing semantics here. I know that shielding is optional on an RCA cable. Shielding is not optional on a coaxial cable though, and when you reduce a single-ended interconnect to its most minimal form, you're left with coax. What I should've said is that the minimum amount of conductors required for an RCA cable is a center conductor and a shield. You cannot make a cable with just a center conductor.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> I think we're just arguing semantics here. I know that shielding is optional on an RCA cable. Shielding is not optional on a coaxial cable though, and when you reduce a single-ended interconnect to its most minimal form, you're left with coax.


 

 Or a simple pair of wires.
   
  Just as shielding isn't a requirement, neither is a coaxial geometry.
   
  Quote: 





> What I should've said is that the minimum amount of conductors required for an RCA cable is a center conductor and a shield.


 
   
  No, what you should have said was that the minimum number of conductors required for an RCA cable is two. Same as for an XLR cable. There's no difference between the two other than the connectors used.
   
  Quote: 





> You cannot make a cable with just a center conductor.


 
   
  "Center conductor" has absolutely nothing inherently to do with the issue of an RCA cable versus an XLR cable.
   
  se


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