# Premium Grade solder?



## ROBSCIX

Hey Guys, I have been working with some higher grades of solder recently and was wondering what others were using for audio components.

 Some of the brands make a great case for their particular metal mixtures...

 So, do we have any comments opinions or suggestions?


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## DKJones96

I've been using a 60/40 surplus store solder. I like it except they only have two sizes .015" and .093". The 15 is perfect for smd and stuff but sockets and P2P gets difficult with such a thin wire. I make up for that by using the same brand of $8 a pound solder but solid core with a bottle of flux.

 I really like the RadioShack silver bearing solder but it's $6 for 1.5 ounces of that or $8 for 16 ounces of this other stuff and I go through solder enough that $64 a pound vs $8 makes a difference.


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## Bonthouse

I use WBT silver solder blessed by my girlfriend, so it sounds *love*ly.


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## ROBSCIX

The regular generic solder is said to be bad for audio work. Of course all companies have advertising as they want you to think there product is superior.
 This metal mixture is better or provides better joints...

 What do you guys think of such suggestions?

 I have ben looking at the WBT and Cardas Quad-E solder from some upcoming circuit I am designing and building.

 I guess I am just wondering what the DIY audio people think of Premium grade solder Vs. Generic 60/40 solder..


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## rds

It seems that most people here prefer Cardas Quad Eutectic. It melts at low temperature and has a quality flux core.

 60/40 is not good for what we're doing. Kester 63/37 is easy to work with, though not quite as good as Cardas Quad in my opinion.


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## dbfreak

I've been using Cardas Quad-Eutectic for the past two years and I'll never go back to any other. Flows like butter and I like solder with a little lead in it.


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## ROBSCIX

I have some Tri and quad Eutectic on the way for testing. 
 I have a great deal of soldering coming up, some fine audio work so I want to make sure the joints are as good as they can be in terms of solder used.
 I have heard great things about the Cardas products though for soldering.

 Any other comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## ROBSCIX

If you had to choose just one, you would take the Cardas Quad?

 I have a associate in a audio lab sending me small rolls of the best solders availble so I am looking forward to trying them out.


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## JamesL

I use the cardas quad since you can get around 40 feet lengths at a time for $10 on ebay.

 It seems a lot at ~$85/lb but in the end, you only use about $5 worth per project... maybe a shiny dime per cable.


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## rds

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JamesL* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use the cardas quad since you can get around 40 feet lengths at a time for $10 on ebay.

 It seems a lot at ~$85/lb but in the end, you only use about $5 worth per project... maybe a shiny dime per cable._

 

You pay $85 for a pound of Cardas quad?


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## JamesL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rds* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You pay $85 for a pound of Cardas quad? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Not exactly. I order 40-feet spools for $10, but I don't buy a pound's worth because I don't need 400-500 feet of solder.
 I'm not sure how much I ordered so far.. I think about 50 feet of solder got me through 5 dac's, 3 smaller amplifiers, and 3 medium sized ones.


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## ROBSCIX

I have noticed that most of these premium "audio" type solders are quite expensive for large rolls. Great thing is, most are available in smaller amounts for reasonable prices.


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## Billyk

Eutectic is the key. I am going by memory but I am sure it has to do with the way the solder transitions from solid to liquid and back. The non eutectic takes a second or so to harden and can cause cold joints. 63/37 is the eutectic percentage. I am sure I am leaving out some details.
 I use Kester and Alpha, have a few pounds of it so prolly won't run out anytime soon.


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## Uncle Erik

The point of solder is to make a strong physical joint. 60/40 does that, flows better than any of the "specialty" solders, and you never get cold joints, tin whiskers, or other problems. I've found silver based solders not to flow or stick particularly well, so I've gone back to 60/40. Usually Kester, but Radio Shack is very good, as well.


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## askforwhy

Cardas, Siltech, I think they can be considered as premium grade.


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## Billyk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point of solder is to make a strong physical joint. 60/40 does that, flows better than any of the "specialty" solders, and you never get cold joints, tin whiskers, or other problems. I've found silver based solders not to flow or stick particularly well, so I've gone back to 60/40. Usually Kester, but Radio Shack is very good, as well._

 

Interesting, 60/40 has given me grief in the past, hence the 63/37. Lead and tin for me though, don't use the fancy stuff.
 Here is the article:
 "In metallurgy, there is a special kind of alloy referred to as "eutectic". Eutectic alloys exhibit no plastic range upon melting, and the melting point is lower than that of any other alloy composed of the same constituents in different proportions. Stated otherwise, a eutectic alloy has coinciding liquidus and solidus temperatures, exhibiting a true melting point as is seen with pure metals, contrasted with the melting range seen with non-eutectic alloys. This allows quicker wetting as the solder heats up, and quicker setup as the solder cools. A non-eutectic alloy must remain still as the temperature drops through the liquidus and solidus temperatures, as any differential movement during the plastic phase may result in cracks, giving an unreliable joint. 63% tin / 37% lead (Sn63Pb37) is the eutectic alloy of tin and lead and has a melting point of 183°C (361°F), with no melting range as with Sn60Pb40. Sn63Pb37 was historically used extensively in printed circuit board (PCB) assembly applications, and we think it is easier to use in hand soldering applications as well."

 Hope this is helpful.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point of solder is to make a strong physical joint. 60/40 does that, flows better than any of the "specialty" solders, and you never get cold joints, tin whiskers, or other problems. I've found silver based solders not to flow or stick particularly well, so I've gone back to 60/40. Usually Kester, but Radio Shack is very good, as well._

 

I see. So your suggesting just using generic 60/40?
 I have heard varying opinions on silver based solders both good and bad.

 I am hoping to get a small roll of each of the premium brands from my associate so I can do some tests and make up my mind which works the best for me. After my tests I can order a larger quantity.
 I appreciate your suggestions and information.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Billyk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting, 60/40 has given me grief in the past, hence the 63/37. Lead and tin for me though, don't use the fancy stuff._

 

So your also suggesting just using a more generic type of solder and not to bother with the premium grades, such as the Cardas Quad Eutectic?

 Thx for your info and suggestions.


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## Billyk

Since I have about 5 pounds of the stuff I don't see the need to buy more. My point is the eutectic alloy being the difference for me. A good high quality brand like Kester or Alpha is a good choice, so too, I think the Cardas Quad and other high end brands are good; I just cannot justify the expense for my use. 

 I think if I was going to do some high end point to point work on a SE 300B type thingus I would invest in a few feet though!


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## ericj

What matters is if you can get a good joint with it and if it will remain stable over time. 

 Kester, Qualitek, and Alpha all have good eutetic products. 

 It also cannot be stated enough that you should use a good flux. I continue to recommend Kester's 186 RMA flux pen for pc board work and smaller-guage cables. For large diameter cables that are hard to fully wet with what amounts to a felt-tip pen, use a good paste flux. 

 Yes, even if you have rosin-core solder.


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## DKJones96

Kester, that's the brand I use from the surplus store. I knew if I saw it I'd recognize it!

 I can't stand solder with high tin content. For example, that ROHS lead free solder.


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## Billyk

Quote:


 It also cannot be stated enough that you should use a good flux. I continue to recommend Kester's 186 RMA flux pen for pc board work and smaller-guage cables. For large diameter cables that are hard to fully wet with what amounts to a felt-tip pen, use a good paste flux. 
 

+++

 I learned to solder 30+ years ago and the most valuable thing I learned was the use of flux! I use a bottle like the one Tangent has for sale on his site. It is the ONLY way to solder SMD.


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## Juaquin

I'm a big fan of standard 62/36/2 silver solder for general purpose work. I also have some Cardas Quad, which flows very nicely.


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## ROBSCIX

Yes, I have some flux paste on the way also and I will be buying some liquid flux also...

 I appreciate the suggestions.


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## ROBSCIX

I just did some soldering with the quad eucetic (bad spelling) That stuff is great and melts on run so easily. I will be using that from now on.


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## scytheavatar

Any eutectic solder = good solder. Which is why 60/40 sucks.


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## compuryan

I'm a fan of Cardas Quadeutectic, the stuff melts like butter. But I agree with others, anything but 60/40 should be just fine.


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## pdupiano

well thats not true. because there are lead free solders that are just... well brittle, hard to use, dull looking, etc... Best bet is to use any eutectic form of solder. Eutectic mixtures melt below the melting point of either metal, and as it cools, it goes directly from liquid to solid state (of the mixture). Other materials that are not at the eutectic mixtures, go from liquid to solid BUT form solid particles of each metal. For example, a standard 60/40 solder will melt and cool (at higher temps than eutectic ofcourse) but as it cools, rather than cooling into the alloy, some become bits and pieces of lead, others tin etc... so its like you have crumbs of metal in an otherwise lovely free flowing pool of solder. This can lead to cold solder joints, and **possibly** some form of noise and parasitic capacitance.


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## DKJones96

Off topic a little. 

 Does anyone know where to get empty solder spools? Like the smaller ones used for 1-1.5 ounce spools? I buy it buy the pound and need 3 of them for some solder I've got so I don't have to keep a 1 pound spool in my hand while working.


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## Ishcabible

Has anyone used Mundorf Supreme solder? It looks interesting and is sort of cheap considering the contents.


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## Bonthouse

Haven't tried it yet, but I might just get some next week or so..
 I gotta say I love the premium solder! It melts at low temperatures and thus less heat to potentially destroy the heat sensitive materials


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## Ishcabible

Buy some here:
Mundorf M-Solder Silver/Gold Solder x1 Meter - eBay (item 220380087175 end time Jul-16-09 03:54:06 PDT)


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ishcabible* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone used Mundorf Supreme solder? It looks interesting and is sort of cheap considering the contents._

 

I haven't tried it yet. I got a small roll of Tri and Quad solder from Cardas and I am very impressed with that stuff. You can move very fast soldering as it heats and runs so easily just makes such nice joints.
 I have been testing various solder lately but I haven't got to the Mundorf Supreme yet. I will have to get some, thx for reminding.


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## igor0203

ROBSCIX, did you try Mundorf Supreme? I recieved 3m Mundorf Silver/Gold and I have mixed impressions about it. 
 It doesn't flow very easily, at least not for me when I was soldering 2 sided PCB. It ran to other side only when I had clean tip and when I melted it directly on hole. If I had solder on tip, then it stayed just on one side.


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## igor0203

And forgot to ask... Is there any lead free solder which flows well?


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## vajrasattva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igor0203* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ROBSCIX, did you try Mundorf Supreme? I recieved 3m Mundorf Silver/Gold and I have mixed impressions about it. 
 It doesn't flow very easily, at least not for me when I was soldering 2 sided PCB. It ran to other side only when I had clean tip and when I melted it directly on hole. If I had solder on tip, then it stayed just on one side._

 

i use mundorf supreme, the one with 9.5% silver, but its only good for point to point soldering esp in tube amps etc. it only flows well when you have the iron heated to 300+ degs, if you dont have a temperature controllable iron, you can consider irons above 40 watts.

 you risk overheating components if you're not quick enough. it solidifies in a quick instant due to its high melting point, so i usually dab the solder on and blow at it immediately after application. 

 for PCB based or solid state electronics, i would still suggest something like tri eutectic w/o lead or with if you like. this solder will be too hard to work with, esp with the need of a fine tipped iron on PCBs, you wont get good flow, and probably lots of bad joints


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## igor0203

Well I also have ETI silver solder(5% silver) and I use it only for P2P soldering as it flows very poor.


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## igor0203

vajrasattva did you work with any lead free solder?


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## jageur272

Mundorf Supreme is lead free. Personally, I think it has an extremely high melting point, so I only use it for non-sensitive components (interconnects, etc.). Otherwise, I stick with my 63/37 or my 62/36/2. I personally found them all to sound the same. If I had to buy more, I'd stick with the 63/37. Easy to use (I don't really like 60/40, doesn't flow as well) and cheap. I bought the 62/36/2 out of curiosity, but it flows about the same but takes a slightly higher temperature to melt (and is more expensive to boot!). The Mundorf solder was a gift (so I *have* to like it the best 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), but I wouldn't recommend it unless you HAVE to have lead-free solder (of which the Mundorf was easiest to use; then again, I only had crap that came with cheap soldering iron).


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## igor0203

Thanks for reply. As I live in EU, in few years leaded solders will most probably be history and that's why I'm asking if there is any lead free solder that melts and flows well. 
 How did you compare 63/37 and 62/36/2 solders?


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## jageur272

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igor0203* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for reply. As I live in EU, in few years leaded solders will most probably be history and that's why I'm asking if there is any lead free solder that melts and flows well. 
 How did you compare 63/37 and 62/36/2 solders?_

 

They both flowed quite well (but they're both leaded), but it feels to me that the 62/36/2 has a higher melting point. I'd just stick with the 63/37. Of all things to get boutique items for, solder is the very last thing on my list. As Uncle Erik said, solder is there to provide a conducting, *mechanical* connection. Priority should be on ease of use and cost efficiency.


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## igor0203

Quote:


 Of all things to get boutique items for, solder is the very last thing on my list. 
 

I totally agree with you. But if you're building amplifier with expensive parts, why not solder with silver.


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## vajrasattva

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igor0203* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_vajrasattva did you work with any lead free solder?_

 

yup i do, cardas tri-eutectic is lead free. the Quad eutectic contains lead, tri doesnt. you can buy shorter lengths (i.e. 100grams etc) off ebay or some online shop i.e. hifi collective, parts connexion etc 

 i typically prefer to use the mundorf supreme solder only when i'm working with mundorf 1% gold wires, else for copper or anything else normal solder will be fine. 

 the rosin in the mundorf solder smells less offensive than others that i've used though i.e. wonder solder


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## sandbasser

I'm using Wonder Solder that I got from Michael Percy Audio a few years back... works great. Apparently it's a 'secret' blend 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW - I just checked his most recent catalog and it's still listed - several flavors now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I too use liquid flux - got it from Tangent... SMD soldering is, for me, impossible without it.


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## boinger

I use kester 62/36/2 it works pretty well for me i like it much better than the 60/40 solder.

 it flows pretty well and makes good joints


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## scootermafia

Cardas quad is the way to go for boardwork. It melts and reflows very easily, I build most cables with it. You'd have to be a masochist to want to use Mundorf for much more than plug terminations, it takes an insane amount of heat to melt it. It smells cool, though.


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## TimmyMac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *igor0203* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I totally agree with you. But if you're building amplifier with expensive parts, why not solder with silver. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Because it costs more. I'd rather upgrade something in the amp. Hell, I'd rather use a fancier volume knob or something than silver solder.


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## chesterqw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point of solder is to make a strong physical joint. 60/40 does that, flows better than any of the "specialty" solders, and you never get cold joints, tin whiskers, or other problems. I've found silver based solders not to flow or stick particularly well, so I've gone back to 60/40. Usually Kester, but Radio Shack is very good, as well._

 

i noticed that as well.
 i used my father's 60/40 and didn't have cold joints.
 i bought some 63/37 the other day and had some cold joints


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## rds

60/40 may flow better but if heated properly a eutectic solder should result in better joints when hand soldering (ie when there is some movement of components as the solder cools).


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## BrianDonegan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesterqw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i noticed that as well.
 i used my father's 60/40 and didn't have cold joints.
 i bought some 63/37 the other day and had some cold joints 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Cold joints are usually a sign of over heating or lack of flux. (or burning off he flux through overheating). The type, amount, and proper usage of flux make a big difference.


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## mono

Solder falls into the realm of voodoo science. Pick what works best for you, what you like the smell of or whatever, but if it costs more you're probably overpaying for aesthetic rather than important per function, reasons. Regular 60/40 and 63/37 low cost solder is not hard to use and most people do not hear any audible difference but as Brian Donegan pointed out, the amount and type of flux can vary some so pick based on what you're soldering.


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## BrianDonegan

OT of solder type, but a good guide for good and bad things in soldering:

THROUGH-HOLE SOLDERING GENERAL REQUIREMENTS

 Note that NASA considers gold in a solder joint to be a contaminant.


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## chesterqw

i got some cardas solder and they are really nice to work with


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## ROBSCIX

Cardas Quad Eucetic is my favorite.


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## igor0203

Did anybody work with WBT lead and lead-free solder? Do they both flow equally?


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## cobaltmute

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BrianDonegan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OT of solder type, but a good guide for good and bad things in soldering:

THROUGH-HOLE SOLDERING GENERAL REQUIREMENTS

 Note that NASA considers gold in a solder joint to be a contaminant._

 

It is interesting that Gold Plating is considered bad as well:

  Quote:


 UNACCEPTABLE

 GOLD PLATING

 Gold plated surfaces that will become part of the finished solder connection shall be tinned prior to soldering to remove the gold plating.

 NASA-STD-8739.3 [7.2.5.c],[13.6.2.a.3] 
 

So every gold plated board would fail their tests...


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## chesterqw

i think because the gold is plated :x

 well, i don't think any sane human will go for solid gold pins :x

 at least gold plated contacts are still good^^
 just not for solder joints.


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## MikeyFresh

igor0203 said:


> Did anybody work with WBT lead and lead-free solder? Do they both flow equally?


 

 I've only used the WBT leaded solder, it flows REALLY well and absolutely dispels the myth that silver content solder doesn't flow well. That's not to knock 60/40, 63/37, or anything else, but to say that anyone who has actually tried WBT-0800 knows it is very easy to work with, at least for the typical DIY project.
  
 The wetting characteristics of WBT-0800 are no doubt a function of the flux formula. As various other posts have pointed out, the flux is a huge part of the equation, that too gets broadly overgeneralized or overlooked when the 60/40 or 63/37 staunch supporters stage their attacks on all silver content solder.
  
 I'm not referring to complex board work or anything that would qualify as the intricate professional realm, especially life and death medical devices or NASA space program electronics. But I find most of the digs at, and rejection of something like WBT-0800 are from those that have never actually used it, or those that are fiercely against the pricing.


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## wakibaki

IMO the only people who are worrying about type of solder are those with the luxury of not having any serious design choices to make.

w


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## MikeyFresh

wakibaki said:


> IMO the only people who are worrying about type of solder are those with the luxury of not having any serious design choices to make.
> 
> w


 

 No one said anyone was "worried".
  
 IMO, your post belongs in the "serious designers making serious design choices" thread, as it has nothing to do with solder at all.
  
 Why waste your time in a solder thread when you clearly have big design choices to worry about?
  
 Go ahead and pat yourself on the back Mr. Serious Designer.


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## wakibaki

Touched a raw nerve there, evidently.

w


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## MikeyFresh

wakibaki said:


> Touched a raw nerve there, evidently.
> 
> w


 

 Nope, just replied to a very pompous and worthless to the thread statement.


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## zool

I use standard 60/37 for just general electronic work/repairs etc. No sense in using the fancy stuff on that crap . But I think thickness make a difference here.. I like the really thin wire for repairs and PCB work. I use 0.5mm for that. I have a full spool of 60/40 solder that I never use, don't like it at all.
  
 I've used WBT-0800 for cables and other audio equipment work. Not sure how much of a difference the 4% silver makes especially on amps where the pins on the caps/components don't even contain copper or silver to begin with. Maybe it'll have some difference when soldering copper to copper or silver etc (like in cables). I still use it on amps though, just for peace of mind and also WBT-0800 is a pleasure to work with. I'll have to give cardas quad eutectic a try next time I need to get some more solder.
  
 I'd be interested in trying Mundorf supreme for cables. But I don't think I would like so much heat on my iron for PCB work. I'd rather use leaded solder for that.
  
 I just recently got a new soldering station that is 90W and that made a huge improvement when working on cables and other stuff that need more heat and have larger areas on which to solder. It also has a tip that is specially made for leadfree solder. Not sure how much the special tip helped or if it was mostly the higher wattage but working with leadfree solder is much easier now than with my old 48W station.
 Having said that I sill prefer leaded solder and I think you get better and more quality solder joints with it. Some times leadfree solder looks kind of grayish and almost looks like a cold solder joint but most of the time it is just the material and flux (or lack of) that make it look that way.


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## dwib44

I just used 60/40 rosin core radioshack solder for my audio technica m50 detachable cable mod and it worked great!


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## MikeyFresh (Oct 29, 2022)

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