# Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 opamp configurations list



## Hadakan

While deciding what internal sound card to buy as an upgrade of my current integrated solution it was pretty easy to settle with Prodigy HD2. However because I was only able to order the basic version with mediocre opamps, I searched for better, available and simple (no soldering) opamp configurations.

 Well, I compiled a list of what I found, so I thought I could share my findings with head-fi.

 There are three official manufactured configurations (as far as I know):
*LITE* --- 3x NE5532
*GOLD* --- 2x OPA2134 + JRC5532
*ADVANCE* --- 2x OPA2134 + OPA2604

 The *ADVANCE* version perfectly fits my needs and it will definitely be the first replacement to try.

*BEST* --- 2x OPA2604 + AD8022 or AD8599
 - no DIP version available for any of those two Analog Devices amps, which means adapter and soldering
 - *Majkel*, a head-fier here, named the option above the "best", but I don't feel like soldering. Not yet, anyway.

 These three configurations with Linear Technology opamps bellow are from user *pdm*:
*A* --- 2x LT1364 + LT1361
 - unmuddled mids, more detailed highs, a little bit more bass, broader soundstage
*B* --- 2x LT1469 + LT1361
 - a lot of detail everywhere, weak bass, too big soundstage
*C* --- 3x LT1361
 - preferred and best sounding out of many LT opamps configuration

 These four configs bellow are originally from *BadassBob*
*D* --- 3x LM4562NA
 - definitely an upgrade over stock config
*E* --- 2x LT1364 + LM4562NA
 - nice sound, punchier bass, mellow highs, and a more detailed midrange, recommended by two users so far
*F* --- 2x LT1364 + LME49720NA
 - worse than config *E* - lost some midrange and had extremely harsh highs, also very much disliked by *pdm*
 - *GuyMe* is generally pleased by this config and he doesn't get the harsh highs on neutral headphones, he tested bright headphones and the highs were there so headphones may be at fault not the opamps
*BEST* --- 2x LT1364 + LT1361
 - punchier bass, great midrange, and nice and mellow highs - favorite setup

*HYBRID* --- 1x 2xOPA627BP on browndog + 2x LT1364
 - update of config *E* mentioned by *mnemoniak* - by his comparasion *E* is missing soundstage and detailed highs, which are there with config - however *HYBRID* is lacking life and ejoyment factor and voices seems to got a sort of veil wasting overall presentation

 Burr Brown opamps
*G* --- 3x OPA2134PA
 - by frankR - much much brighter, sharper highs, almost too bright, stronger perhaps a little muddy bass, much wider and deeper soundstage

 I wonder if any of you could suggest other combinations and perhaps share your experience with them and I will add them to this list. Thanks for any input, guys.

 For the record, there are also two headphone amps (JRC4580) on HD2. Those can be used to boost the signal by 250%. They are switched on by two jumpers on the PCB. They are soldered in place.


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## BadassBob

Ive tried a few different combos. I started with 3x LM4562NA, sounded pretty nice. From the stock config, it was a nice upgrade. From there I went to 2x LT1364s and 1x LM4562NA. That gave a nice sound, punchier bass, mellow highs, and a more detailed midrange. Last weekend I replaced the LM4562NA with an LME49720NA, lost some midrange and had extremely harsh highs. I liked the LT1364s with the LM4562NA much better. Just a few hours ago, I replaced the LME49720NA with an LT1361. This is a very good setup. Punchier bass, great midrange, and nice highs. Not harsh at all, nice and mellow. Id have to say this is my favorite setup so far. It gives a more fun sound overall. As always, your mileage may vary.


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## Hadakan

Thanks for your info.

 I wonder, do I have a typo in the option C? Shouldn't there be 2x LT1364 (which would make it same as option E) instead of 2x LT1634? Or is C a valid combination also?


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## majkel

We're surely discussing LT1364. It was probably me who recommended 2x OPA2604 + AD8022 because it's a configuration found by me and my friend from another forum including experiments with LM4562, AD8066, OPA2107, OPA2134, NE5532 and other well known chips. For further improvement - replace capacitors for Sanyo WG where possible.


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## Hadakan

Yes, it was you. Sorry for not crediting you properly, majkel.

 And thanks for the suggestion for cap replacement. What's interesting, it seems like the Advance version of HD2 is already equipped with some Sanyo OS-CON.

Welcome to AUDIOTRAK Korea


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## BadassBob

Like was said above, this card would benefit greatly from a capacitor upgrade. Its an excellent sounding source as is, theres quite a bit of potential. Ive heard some people say the headphone amp is about on par with an EMU 0404USB, if so its a pretty weak amp. The headphone out on my old Pioneer amp is much better.


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## Hadakan

Isn't the headphone out as good as the opamps installed? As far as I know the two JRC4580 amps (which have dubious quality) are for optional boost of the signal. If I don't use the jumpers I'll get whatever the opamps create. Or do I?


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## frankR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hadakan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't the headphone out as good as the opamps installed? As far as I know the two JRC4580 amps (which have dubious quality) are for optional boost of the signal. If I don't use the jumpers I'll get whatever the opamps create. Or do I?_

 


 I would like to know this as well since I'm currently using the jumper to boost the headphone output, which is not really needed. I'm interested in upgrading opamps, espeacially if they can directly power the headphone out.


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## majkel

Try replacing the NJM4580's with the AD8022's if possible. It made a significant progress in my CDP.


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## psc001

How the Prodigy HD2 card with the Vista OS ? Is there any problem with the drivers or installation ?


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## Hadakan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *psc001* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How the Prodigy HD2 card with the Vista OS ? Is there any problem with the drivers or installation ?_

 

I wanna just bump this thread, but I might as well give my thoughts (even though I don't have the card yet and I don't have Vista anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ). From what I've read the drivers for HD2 are fine with both XP and Vista and even with 64bit versions of these operating systems, so I wouldn't worry about it.


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## BadassBob

Im running XP x64 with the Audiotrak driver. No problems here.


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## psc001

One more question. I have a slim desktop from Dell, I was wondering if Prodigy HD would be able to fit into the slot. From the pic, it looks like it should be but if guys've installed it let me know , thanx!


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## frankR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *psc001* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One more question. I have a slim desktop from Dell, I was wondering if Prodigy HD would be able to fit into the slot. From the pic, it looks like it should be but if guys've installed it let me know , thanx!_

 

The HD2 is small. Probably the best sounding small sound card availible, and prety good in its own right.


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## mnemoniak

Best past op-amp configuration : 
 1x LM4562 + 2x LT1364

 New best op-amp configuration :
 1x 2xOPA627BP on browndog + 2x LT1364 [back on this, two posts further]

 I Will try to explain differencies later ..

 PS : I first buy OPA627s from selectronic, probably fakes ones, no notche and sonds really bad, then some from tube_buyer (ebay), those with a notch, and, great, they are those I was expecting.


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## Hadakan

Thanks for the info mnemoniak.

 I am still curious whether the replacement of those three opamps for superior types directly affects the quality of the headphone out as well as the RCA connectors.


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## mnemoniak

O.K. back on my first statement, what I was missing in the LM4562, soundstage + detailed highs, are here with the opa627's, each instrument seems at the right place, with the right tone, but, what is lacking now is the life and ejoyment factor which was given with the LM4562, unfortunately, voices seems to got a sort of veil which is wasting the overall presentation.

 Despite the qualities of the OPA627's, i'm going back to the LM4562, unfortunately, I would had let the OPA's, only if the voices had been sounding a different way, it is killing, in my configuration (LISA III + K701), all the benefits of OPA's.


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## majkel

@mnemoniak, OPA627 is good but completely not worth its price due to lack of PRaT. It's too slow and boring. And the LM4562 is of course a midrange killer, overdetailed and bass-crazy, wherever I tried it. AFAIR the Lisa III uses AD744's. I would replace it with the AD825's because other good sounding op-amps are mostly bipolar and I never recommend switching from one type to another - from FET to bipolar isn't always safe, from bipolar to FET makes no sonical sense.


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## frankR

I just popped in three BB OPA2134PA I found from a past active xover project.

 I also disabled the 250% gain.

 The first minute impressions are:

 - Much much brighter, sharper highs, almost too bright will need to get used to it.
 - Bass is stronger, but a little muddy, although I'm listening to finger plucked accoustic bass, probably how it's supposed to sound
 - Sound stage is much wider and deeper


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## GuyMe

Thanks for making this thread, glad someone finally started to compile a list of combinations.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hadakan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_F --- 2x LT1364 + LME49720NA (worse than config E - lost some midrange and had extremely harsh highs)_

 

I'm currently using this and I'm generally pleased by it. I don't get the harsh highs, but most of my headphones are closer to neutral than some. I did try this setup with a bright headphone and I heard the harsh highs, but I fault the headphone, not the opamps.

 I think I will give these two setups a try, I'll try to remember to post impressions here.
  Quote:


 E = C --- 2x LT1364 + LM4562NA (nice sound, punchier bass, mellow highs, and a more detailed midrange, recommended by two users so far) 
 

 Quote:


 BEST --- 2x LT1364 + LT1361 (punchier bass, great midrange, and nice and mellow highs - favorite setup)


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## mnemoniak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *majkel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@mnemoniak, OPA627 is good but completely not worth its price due to lack of PRaT. It's too slow and boring. And the LM4562 is of course a midrange killer, overdetailed and bass-crazy, wherever I tried it. AFAIR the Lisa III uses AD744's. I would replace it with the AD825's because other good sounding op-amps are mostly bipolar and I never recommend switching from one type to another - from FET to bipolar isn't always safe, from bipolar to FET makes no sonical sense._

 

Thank you for your advices majkel, but I'm not really familiar with those FET and bipolar questions, if you are talking about replacing LISA's Op-amps, I'm not ready to do this kind of thing, the only thing I'm able to do right now is swapping op-amps on DIP sockets (is this the way I should call that ?).
 I was not aware of those safes or not safes replacements. thanks again, but I need to learn a lot more about all of this, thanks to you, I will be more cautious while playing the sorcerer's apprentice.


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## majkel

You're welcome! Mostly it's not harmful to use one type instead of another but this kind of puristic approach makes choices easier. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Look at the topic this way: FET is necessary evil, when not needed, better avoided but sometimes you just have to use them.


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## psc001

Have you guys seen this one before ? AUDIOTRAK DR.DAC2 Digital to Analog Converter - eBay (item 120258608404 end time May-15-08 17:45:41 PDT)
 It looks very promising and I might actually buy it !!!


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## frankR

Is three OPA2134's a resonable configuration, or should I consider purchasing some of the other op-amps posted in this thread?

 So far this sounds much better then the stock op-amps. The highs are a bit on the harsh side, that is my complaint.


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## Hadakan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GuyMe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for making this thread, glad someone finally started to compile a list of combinations._

 

I selfishly started this thread to get as much feedback as possible so I could comfortably choose what upgrades are worth trying 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .

 So thanks for all the great feedback I was getting. I'll try to keep up and keep the first post up to date and accurate. Please, don't be too mad if I mess up some description or fail to credit some of you properly.


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## vvvvvv

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *frankR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is three OPA2134's a resonable configuration, or should I consider purchasing some of the other op-amps posted in this thread?

 So far this sounds much better then the stock op-amps. The highs are a bit on the harsh side, that is my complaint._

 

1) I have the same question. Does anyone here know? I myself can only get the OPA2134, and I have the european version of the Prodigy HD2, with the NE5535's... So do three OPA2134's sound better than the stock op-amps?

 2) Another question.. Do I need to buy 3 of them by any means? Or 2 can work better? Because I know the HD2 Gold version has 1 NE5532 and 2 OPA2134's. So would 3 OPA2134's sound better than that? Or 2+1 is better? I expect a fast answer because there are not many left in stock to buy here. Thanks a lot, in advance!


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## majkel

OP2134 is popular and nothing spectacular. I'm not sure there will be improvement over the NE5532's. Just different sound but disputably better. Use two OPA2604's and the AD8022 at the front. You'll need an adapter to insert it into the socket.


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## vvvvvv

Thanks a lot for the reply, but it didn't really answer any of my 2 questions. :/
 So which would be better: all three OPA2134's *or* two OPA2134's + a 5532?
 Anyone?
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vvvvvv* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I myself can only get the OPA2134_


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## vvvvvv

Busy forum this is..............


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## FallenAngel

Since the AK4396 is a voltage out DAC, has anybody tried to bypass the opamps all together? Very interested as I just bought this card and since I have some very strong amps, I don't really want any extra line-driving opamps.

 I'm also going to be looking at the coupling caps on this thing, perhaps I can change those to something nice and skip the opamps altogether.


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## Hookem

"Use two OPA2604's and the AD8022 at the front. You'll need an adapter to insert it into the socket."

 +1


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since the AK4396 is a voltage out DAC, has anybody tried to bypass the opamps all together? Very interested as I just bought this card and since I have some very strong amps, I don't really want any extra line-driving opamps.

 I'm also going to be looking at the coupling caps on this thing, perhaps I can change those to something nice and skip the opamps altogether. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Anybody?


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## majkel

See the datasheet if the op-amp buffer is just a buffer, or additional low-pass filter. Despite the DAC offers voltage output, it can still be insufficiently efficient to withstand loads, especially capacitive, like cables. I'm not talking about a possible damage just about expected sound deterioration but might be wrong so the datasheet would help.


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *majkel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_See the datasheet if the op-amp buffer is just a buffer, or additional low-pass filter. Despite the DAC offers voltage output, it can still be insufficiently efficient to withstand loads, especially capacitive, like cables. I'm not talking about a possible damage just about expected sound deterioration but might be wrong so the datasheet would help._

 

http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/...k4396_f00e.pdf

 It seems the max load capacitance of the AK4396 is 25pF, but it also says "When AOUT drives some capacitive load, some resistor should be added in series between AOUT and capacitive load".

 The datasheet example of the LPF also shows a 0.1uF coupling cap, maybe something to upgrade on this card.


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## neongod

Hi all,
 I too have this sound card european version (the one with 3 NE5532) and want to upgrade them to better ones.

 I have a couple of questions:

 1) Do you know Analog Device AD8620BR OpAmp? Lot of people in DIY forums talks about it as one of the best OpAmps around, for sure superior to LM4562.
 Also, someone on the Audiotrak forums tried a config with 3 Texas Instruments THS4032 and told it was really beautyful, better than 3 LM4562...

 What do you think about it? Better AD8620BR or THS4032?

 2) And it's better use a 2+1 config or a 3x config?


 Also what about replacing all the caps? Do you think it might be useful? And what to use? Audience AV Auricap, Rubycon Black Gate, Nichicon Fine Gold or Elna Cerafine?


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## anawatsao

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since the AK4396 is a voltage out DAC, has anybody tried to bypass the opamps all together? Very interested as I just bought this card and since I have some very strong amps, I don't really want any extra line-driving opamps.

 I'm also going to be looking at the coupling caps on this thing, perhaps I can change those to something nice and skip the opamps altogether. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 YES...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 buffer tube or bypass cap.it work deep bass and detail.


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## leeperry

.


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## Shoewreck

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since the AK4396 is a voltage out DAC, has anybody tried to bypass the opamps all together? Very interested as I just bought this card and since I have some very strong amps, I don't really want any extra line-driving opamps._

 

There is a lot of ultrasonic noise coming out of such voltage out DACs, so the opamps are here to filter that rubbish out, not to drive the line. I'm not sure your strong amps were designed to handle out-of-audio-band frequencies.
 You may use 560 Ohm resistors between DAC output and cable to filter some noise out. In this case don't forget to take care of DC offset.
 A pair of audio transformers would also do a good job filtering out DC and ultrasonic noise. Just hook the primary between + and - DAC outputs and the secondary to output.


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## moriez

Im a owner of a HD2 as well and found more configs on the Audiotrak support forum. Thanks for this thread


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hadakan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Isn't the headphone out as good as the opamps installed? As far as I know the two JRC4580 amps (which have dubious quality) are for optional boost of the signal. If I don't use the jumpers I'll get whatever the opamps create. Or do I?_

 

if you use the HP out w/o the jumper, the JRC4580 do 70% amplification, and if you enable it they do 200%.


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## leeperry

.


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## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *neongod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi all,
 Also what about replacing all the caps? Do you think it might be useful? And what to use? Audience AV Auricap, Rubycon Black Gate, Nichicon Fine Gold or Elna Cerafine?_

 

Hi,

 I don't have this card but I have done quite a lot of cap selection. What's the sound like ? Bright - warm ? Spacious - close ? You'll want to blend the sonic characteristics if you can to get your preferred sound. 

 I haven't heard the Auricap so can't comment on them. Black Gate are very good but perhaps not worth the money, they are quite spacious and detailed. Nichicon are very bright with good bandwidth (frequency range). Cerafine are the most neutral of your selection and probably the best value for money. I'd also consider Vishay/Philips BC (136) (musically neutral and strong performance), and Elna Silmic II (outstanding musical performance - best caps IMO). 

 Have fun !

 Tom


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## leeperry

anything not harsh like the STX will do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was told that the improved caps of the "Deluxe Edition" wouldn't really be worth it?


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## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anything not harsh like the STX will do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was told that the improved caps of the "Deluxe Edition" wouldn't really be worth it?_

 

I quite agree - the ST and STX are very bright and they use Nichicon Fine Gold almost exclusively. The KZ are supposed to be better but I suspect they'll still sound too bright. I've also used the HD and they are the same. Great for digital power smoothing but too bright for audio for my tastes. 

 I forgot to ask - what caps are standard ? What are used on the deluxe card ? It may not even be worth upgrading.


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## leeperry

yep, the STX/ST sound very agressive to me...very detailed and very harsh, really not the kind of sound I'm after...considering I got very transparent cans in the first place(MDR-CD1000 -same drivers as the CD3000- and DT770/600Ω) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 this is the standard edition: prodigy hd2 - Google Images

Audiotrack Prodigy HD2 ADVANCE SE SoundCard - eBay (item 120457254934 end time Sep-07-09 22:18:13 PDT)

 this is the deluxe: http://audiotrak.co.kr/images/advance_de_eng_04.jpg

AUDIOTRAK Prodigy HD2 ADVANCE DE Sound Card 2-Channel - eBay (item 120460571959 end time Sep-17-09 23:58:48 PDT)

 I was told that the deluxe had a more detailed sound, but still very "digital" sounding...and the upgrade wouldn't really be worth it(it's only 12 EUR more expensive, but you can find the standard edition for pretty cheap second hand..)


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## leeperry

and I can't stress enough how cool the drivers look! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





ESI - Driver Technology






 "auto" samplerate, clear indication of the current rate...support for directwire so you can internally route any renderer to any renderer/output.

 the STX drivers are as wonky as can get in comparison


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## Slash47

For anyone interested in changing the caps on this card:






 You'll want to change:

 Yellow: PCI noise filter and 5V caps.

 3,5mm lead spacing, 8/10mm diameter. If you use non-solid electrolytes 5mm lead spacing should be ok. 

 Change these for low ESR caps with a 10V or 16V rating, like Rubycon ZA (discontinued but widely available), Sanyo Oscon SP or Nichicon PLG. 470uf is a nice rating.

 Blue: input caps

 2,5mm lead spacing. Use 25V 100uf Panasonic FC or 10V 100uf Rubycon ZA. I like both although according to most the Panasonic FC _should_ be better.

 Red: +- 9V caps

 5mm lead spacing, 10mm diameter

 Use whatever you want, as long as it fits, it's 16V and 470uf or higher. I like Rubycon ZL(H) and Panasonic FC. They're cheap and small and as good as anything. A 470uf/16V Black Gate is 12,5mm in diameter, as well as most Elna's in this rating, but you _might_ get them to fit, I'm not sure.

 The other caps are just to stabilize the circuit basically, you won't really hear a difference I think.


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## thoppa

I see the spec sheet says it uses a 4580 as a headphone amp ? Anyone got any comments about how this sounds ? It doesn't seem like a 'great' choice on paper.


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## leeperry

.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see the spec sheet says it uses a 4580 as a headphone amp ? Anyone got any comments about how this sounds ? It doesn't seem like a 'great' choice on paper._

 

to my greatest amazement, it sounds really great! it's a nice contrast to the AK4396+LME49722...the bass is great on my cd1k, the 4580 can drive headphones for a change(and THD is quite low) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 "tuby" as they call it, but the HD2 is known to be a "warm" source apparently(even on the line-out) in this thread: Prodigy 7.1 / LT / HiFi / HD2 Fan Club

 a far cry from the "whining in the trebles" Essence cards...yet still very detailed, just not ear-splitting screaming in the mids. needless to say, I'm very happy w/ it so far 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and Slash47 told me that the third op-amp is not used when you go JRC4580, so I only have 2 op-amps to roll. on that lowyat.net thread, ppl recommend the LT1469/LT1361/LT1364...and I happen to have samples for all of these, apparently the 1469 is great! but first I'll try the THS4032, which is said to be great too. the LME49722 is also really nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I wanted to try the bypass trick, but it can only be used for op-amps used as buffers apparently...and shouldn't be done on LPF op-amps?

*PS:* also, the AK4396 doesn't need any I/V, and many op-amps work better as buffers than I/V?


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## leeperry

if there must be only one


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## Hookem

@ LeePerry

 I see you have 3 LME4970HA's on BrownDog adapters.

 How does it sound ???

 I have 2x OPA2604 + AD8022 on a BrownDog as recommended by Majkel here at Head-Fi (props to majkel) I tried many different combinations after installing the OPA2604-AD8022 combination only to go back.

 Kinda getting opamp fever again and would like your impression of the 3 LME's you have on your card.


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## ROBSCIX

If you look at the pic a bit closer you can see they are jammed into the sockets.
 You could install them like this for a quick test but other then that this method is sloppy and would probably lead to oscialltion..excess heat.etc.
 Adapters are the right way to use theses opamps for extended use. 

 The LME49720HA's are not too bad if used properly. 
 If you do some tests, post your results in the opamp thread.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hookem* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kinda getting opamp fever again and would like your impression of the 3 LME's you have on your card._

 

nope, no adapters needed. I simply bent them...they would supposedly sound better on adapters, but well something's not right in the mids(some nasty resonance?) on these 49720 parts(whatever NA/HA) and the SS is dull IMO...it's cutting the SS in lotsa thin layers, but they don't match...there's too many of them to make any sense. but the first impressions are impressive, it just dulls out overtime.

 atm I'm using 2*LT1364 on the HP out(I took out the third op-amp, so sound has less gain and seems less agressive)....I'm liking it *a lot* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 LT recommended it to me as being a top choice for audio. it doesn't try to impress you, everything's very natural including the SS...which is wider than the 49720/4562 and not artificial. the low end bass is great, the mids carry lotsa details and the trebles are a bit dark.

 I still got a lot of op-amps to roll, but I might very well settle down on this set up for a while 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've spent a lot of time working out a good EQ to kill my ear resonances, and the result is spot-on! I use it in foobar & ffdshow for movies: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/how...ml#post6026141


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## leeperry

yup, the LT1364 is definitely a keeper 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 BTW, Audiotrak gave me some older drivers that act differently from the newest 5.40f generic VIA drivers...I need to listen carefully whichever one I'd prefer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the old one has KS totally bit-perfect!(automatically bit-matched of course, you can see the sample rate in the drivers)...no volume control works *whatsoever*, not even the master volume. the only way to control volume is the 64-bit attenuator in foobar(but Reclock doesn't have one...so that's annoying, maybe I can hook something up in ffdshow)

 the new one can control KS through the master volume, which is a lot handier....as master volume is supposed to be hardware controlled anyway ?! that's what the KX drivers engineers say, it'd be mandatory in the WDM design.

 also the old one doesn't support 24bit KS, only 16/32(like the EWDM drivers), but the new ones support 16/24/32(24 is nice I guess?)


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## moriez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and I can't stress enough how cool the drivers look! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




ESI - Driver Technology






 "auto" samplerate, clear indication of the current rate...support for directwire so you can internally route any renderer to any renderer/output.

 the STX drivers are as wonky as can get in comparison 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Where did you get these beta drivers mate? V0.978 from the Audiotrak site are a bit buggy with my setup.


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## ROBSCIX

The drivers for this card are known to be quite buggy.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moriez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where did you get these beta drivers mate? V0.978 from the Audiotrak site are a bit buggy with my setup._

 

yeah the EWDM drivers look pretty buggy, I didn't try them...and don't plan to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 actually these 1.0 drivers are older than the 0.978

 my HD2 Advance has a different firmware, that's compatible w/ the VIA generic drivers(they support 16/24/32bit KS on XP, fully bit-matched at that!).

 if you're brave enough, you can prolly crossflash your card to be compatible w/ the VIA drivers: AUDIOTRAK - User Community


----------



## ROBSCIX

How do drivers "look" buggy?
 Many people say the drivers for these cards "ARE" buggy..
 May be just certain versions...


----------



## FasterThanEver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moriez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where did you get these beta drivers mate? V0.978 from the Audiotrak site are a bit buggy with my setup._

 

What is your configuration? (OS, player, output plugin, ASIO, Kernel Streaming or DirectSound, upsampling, etc.)

 For many months, I have used ASIO through the 0.978 drivers on Win XP with the J. River Media center 11/12/13/14 players. I listen to music through the AudioTrak for several hours most days. The AudioTrak drivers have been flawless for me.

 I don't play games or play any 5 channel material so I don't know how the AudioTrak works for those uses.

 Bill


----------



## moriez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you're brave enough, you can prolly crossflash your card to be compatible w/ the VIA drivers: AUDIOTRAK - User Community_

 

Pff, thats too much work for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks for the heads up.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FasterThanEver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is your configuration? (OS, player, output plugin, ASIO, Kernel Streaming or DirectSound, upsampling, etc.)_

 

XP SP3, latest Winamp with ASIO (v0.67). Im not sure what upsampling does but I felt I would just lock at 44.1khz. The locking has no influence on the glitches I hear every now and then. The glitches only occur when the processor has to work. Opening a simple website can sometimes be shortly audible. In the worst case I get a BSOD but this is only when for example Winamp is running and I check a youtube vid at the same time. This shouldnt happen right?


----------



## leeperry

yeah, lot of ppl said that ASIO is terrible w/ the EWDM drivers...tried 32bit KS? keep the sample rate unlocked and disable the S/PDIF output.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moriez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pff, thats too much work for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for the heads up.



 XP SP3, latest Winamp with ASIO (v0.67). Im not sure what upsampling does but I felt I would just lock at 44.1khz. The locking has no influence on the glitches I hear every now and then. The glitches only occur when the processor has to work. Opening a simple website can sometimes be shortly audible. In the worst case I get a BSOD but this is only when for example Winamp is running and I check a youtube vid at the same time. This shouldnt happen right?_

 

No it shouldn't happen. The drivers sound like they are very buggy to say the least. Reading around many people seem to complain about them.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yeah, lot of ppl said that ASIO is terrible w/ the EWDM drivers...tried 32bit KS? keep the sample rate unlocked and disable the S/PDIF output._

 

So simple ASIO output doesn't work?
 Your suggestion is just to ignore the ASIO bug and go with Kernel streming instead and disable the S/Pdif output? -What if the person wants S/Pdif output or ASIO?
 Seems like alot of uneeded junk just to get a simple output working.


----------



## moriez

Well, I increased the latency in the HD2 panel from the default 256 to 512. Guess what? In the half hour of testing no more glitches running a youtube vid with winamp. No glitch when minimizing audio scrobbler 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I couldnt get KS to play so im still with ASIO btw and sample rate unlocked. SPDIF is on ''CON".


----------



## ROBSCIX

So it was just a case of the ASIO latency being too low?


----------



## moriez

At the moment that seems the case. How would you explain this logically? What happened?


----------



## moriez

On topic: LT1364/61 sounds sweet! Way better and much needed improvement over stock opamps. I am set for winter time.


----------



## leeperry

KS should work, especially in 32bit?! set the samplerate to auto, disable S/PDIF and keep messing w/ the options until it gives...no need to set any latency in KS, unlike ASIO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I found LT1361 whiney, but 1364 sounds so damn good...I'll try LT1363 and LT1028 next week


----------



## FasterThanEver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moriez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At the moment that seems the case. How would you explain this logically? What happened?_

 

Whenever you hear interruptions in audio playback, it is often the result of the buffer in front of the DAC chip running out of audio samples. you may hear this as clicks, pops, a pause or some other undesirable result.

 The player software may have a buffer setting parameter and so may the ASIO driver.

 Other software such as an anti-virus program, the Windows update service, Windows drive indexing and system restore checkpointing can compete for CPU time and disk I/O capability and delay execution of the player software. 

 There can also be delays at the level of the driver s/w and at the PCI bus level leading to underruns at the DAC chip.

 Audio playback is a real-time task. The flow of audio data from audio data file to the DAC chip has to keep up at all times or you hear a glitch. You seem to have gotten first hand experience with the nature of the process. 

 Set buffer sizes so that you never hear a glitch. No point in a higher setting and no value in hearing glitches from a too low buffer size.

 You might also consider taming your A/W software so that it does not run aggressively all the time.

 Bill


----------



## moriez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_atm I'm using 2*LT1364 on the HP out(I took out the third op-amp, so sound has less gain and seems less agressive)....I'm liking it *a lot*_

 

So you leave the front opamp socket empty? And in your opinion this sounds better than a third opamp included?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_disable S/PDIF_

 

How?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FasterThanEver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might also consider taming your A/W software so that it does not run aggressively all the time._

 

A/W software?


----------



## FasterThanEver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *moriez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 A/W software?_

 

Sorry. A/V = Anti-virus software.

 Bill


----------



## leeperry

I don't know how to disable S/PDIF in the EWDM drivers, these beta drivers look way too wonky for me to touch them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 plus I've found an old version of the VIA drivers that gives 100% bit-matched/bit-perfect KS, no volume control works whatsoever(not even the master!) and they forbid resample(even on S/PDIF!)...it relies on the 64-bit volume attenuator of foobar, SQ is fantastic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I'm quite sure that if you mess long enough w/ the EWDM GUI, it should work at some point...set it to auto, kill S/PDIF and output 32bit KS from foobar. I've read many ppl saying that it worked on XP.

 well, the third op-amp is used to beef up the signal to line-out level....but I use the high gain NJM4580 to drive my cd1k anyway, it sounds flatter/less distorted w/o the 3rd op-amp. I will try to add a LT1361 one of these days, but well I like a flat chill out sound, I'm not looking for an agressive sound AT ALL. 

 the NJM4580 has made me completely change my mind about it, it's a cheap op-amp but its THD is not too shabby and it's fantastic to drive HP(its primary use?). the bass response sounds so good, nothing any line-out will ever be able to feed HP w/....and w/o the harsh distortion of the STX HP amp as soon as you increase its gain


----------



## moriez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, the third op-amp is used to beef up the signal to line-out level....but I use the high gain NJM4580 to drive my cd1k anyway, it sounds flatter/less distorted w/o the 3rd op-amp. I will try to add a LT1361 one of these days, but well I like a flat chill out sound, I'm not looking for an agressive sound AT ALL._

 

I dont understand. Can you clarify if you use the 4580 as a third opamp or dont use a third opamp at all? Looking forward to hearing your opinion about the 1364/1361 combo or any other 1364 combo.

 Btw, got Kernel Streaming to work. Found out that the computer needed a restart to get it to play! Now it seems I can leave the 256 default latency in panel without hearing glitches. Another question is if its an advantage to kill S/PDIF or whats the purpose?


----------



## leeperry

yes, DirectKS does the job. it's the m$ answer to ASIO, and no need to set any latency.

 oh well, I'm an op-amp nutcase...I'm currently using the LT1213, and I'd say that I prefer it to the LT1364 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 wider SS, tamer trebles...it sounds more controlled and I loooove a wide SS anyway. I'd say it sounds like a stable LME49720NA w/o the whiney trebles and w/ great bass response.

 some Japanese guy said it sounded "cool and HD"...I would concur.

 when you use the HP out, it goes through a 70% amp on the JRC4580.


----------



## leeperry

ok, OPA-Earth still burning in:



 

 



 it sounds livelier than an OPA2132P w/ clearer trebles/*much* wider SS and more details overall, low end bass is slightly better too...I will let it burn a bit and then try the OPA-Moon later today, I could use more tubiness tbh.

 a friend of mine just ordered a Claro Halo, so it'll be next on the list...I'm sure it'll be great w/ 2*LT1364 + 2*discrete op-amps, we'll prolly make a big STX/HD2/Claro shoot out


----------



## ManuLM

What a mess ... and ehh nice Zalman


----------



## ROBSCIX

The discrete opamps are worth the hassle. They sound very good...


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What a mess ... and ehh nice Zalman_

 

it sounds as good as it's a mess  ....the SS is really impressive! currently playing some JM Lab demos, me like it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it's the exact same chip as the old burson, I can understand all the raving reviews at the bottom of this page: Burson Opamp

*PS1:* one thing that's totally amazing on the Earth is the stereo coherence..just mind blowing!

 you can see at the end of their webpage that they give perfect waveforms on an oscilloscope, unlike IC's: ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 another site did many more comparisons and came up w/ the same conclusions.

*PS2:* having second thoughts, I think I'll ask for 5cm extension leads next time I order..10cm is quite a lot actually.


----------



## leeperry

ok, noone wants to play?


----------



## leeperry

ah well, I miss the LT1364 magic on vocals(so nice in movies!)...I'll put one as last buffer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS:* ah! much better


----------



## leeperry

well, LT1364 gives a magic touch to vocals but it basically mono-izes them to death..2*LT1363 on adapters was a far cry as far as stereo separation was concerned.

 2*Sun>1*Earth is true dual mono from A to Z, amazing!

 Earth as final buffer is amazing...I knew that! it gives a warm 3Dish to death soundstage...but I've compared 2*Sun as AK4396 LPF against 2*LT1364. well it's night and day, the LT1364 is distorted/bright/agressive and Sun V2 is just perfect. very happy w/ this little mod, catchy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 soon I'll try to replace Earth by a new burson, to see if there's any room for improvement.





 and putting additional sockets as risers is just not manageable:


----------



## leeperry

so all the HD2 modders have left the ship I presume?


----------



## Calebcz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so all the HD2 modders have left the ship I presume? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

One is boarding the ship right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have HD2 DE (2x2134 + 2604). It sounds too much bassy to me and i'm missing a sparkle in mids in comparison with M-Audio Transit. Any recomendation? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My setup: Little Dot I+ (stock opamp + 6AK5W) and modded Senn. HD555.


----------



## leeperry

my current favorite is AD797B, really amazing chip


----------



## Calebcz

Tnx for quick reply.

 Should I use the AD797 as an output opamp and leave the 2134s in place?

 btw: I have these opamps currently available: 2x2134 DIP8, and AD823 soic and LM49722 soic (looking for soic to dip reduction).


----------



## leeperry

I personally have given up on dual op-amps, they just kill the stereo image...whatever as LPF or final buffer, you really don't want ANY crosstalk between the two signals.

 2134 is junk, burn them


----------



## Calebcz

Crosstalks don't bothering me right now. I just need some tips for clear, non-bassy setup with standard dual-opamps. I can try LT1364 as final buffer (i ordered sample from LT), but i have no idea how much are those 2134s affecting sound.


----------



## leeperry

well crosstalk on a stereo signal or +/- polarities of the same channel DOES bother you...as soon as you hear single op-amps on browndogs, the center channel becomes soooo much wider 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 about one of their newest dual op-amp, TI says: "_The dual version features completely independent circuitry for lowest crosstalk and freedom from interactions between channels_" Precision Amplifier - Wide Bandwidth - OPA1612 - TI.com

 let's just say that your average dual op-amp doesn't sound too "free".

 non-bassy? the 1364 is quite bassy tbh..and most op-amps as final buffer will sound bassy on the HD2, this card is known to be pretty dark. don't put a final buffer if you don't want too much bass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS:* try LT1124ACN8, it's not bassy at all on the DAC output!


----------



## Calebcz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ don't put a final buffer if you don't want too much bass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thank you for tip, it helped a lot. What is purpose of the final buffer anyway?


----------



## leeperry

bring up to line-out level I was told, but it also increases the bass response.


----------



## Calebcz

Testing 3xOPA2134 right now - much brighter than default "deluxe" setup. 2604 was too dark for my taste. Sound without final buffer is not bad, but maybe too week on lows.
 Can't wait to test 1364 as final buffer (sample from LT hopefully on way to me). I'm still missing some "magic on vocals" in comparison with Transit.


----------



## leeperry

hehe, 1364 is exactly the chip that does magic to the vocals, you won't regret it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I personally prefer 2*1363 on a browndog, but you'd have guessed that already...that's actually what I'm listening to as I'm typing this


----------



## leeperry

if you wanna clean the bass response, you might as well attach caps to the back of the card:





 still evaluating whether I like the change 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS:* ah well, far more bass percussion but far less low end bass extension..OTOH sound is cleaner and clearer


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Calebcz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Testing 3xOPA2134 right now - much brighter than default "deluxe" setup. 2604 was too dark for my taste. Sound without final buffer is not bad, but maybe too week on lows.
 Can't wait to test 1364 as final buffer (sample from LT hopefully on way to me). I'm still missing some "magic on vocals" in comparison with Transit._

 

Try some LME4562/LME49720's. They offer a better high end response then 2134's which have a glossy type of high range.
 There are many others out there, based on what your looking for though these might be the right fit.


----------



## leeperry

well, been rolling a bit for the final buffer.

 LT1028CS8 has a very clean/clear sound...but PRaT is low, and sound is rather boring tbh...for instance on the "Isaac Hayes - Shaft" SACD title song in 24/96 FLAC, at the end the crazy wahwah guitar goes L/R pan several times...it's VERY boring on the 1028.

 OTOH, PRaT is crazy on LT1363CS8...really really nice! but sound is highly colored and rather distorted, it gets odd after a few days...but what it does, it does it amazingly well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the new burson gives a reverbed panoramic color to the AD797B(I used cardas solder & the highest grade of DIP8 gold plated socket):





 PRaT is very high too, yet less distorted/compressed than 1363...it's a matter of either you want 1)a boring clear sound on the 1028 2)a distorted funky sound on the 1363 3)a highly panoramic 360° SS on the burson....jury is still out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll also try 2*LT1677/LT1028ACN8/LT1115 and 6*AD797B...but, wow! w/o the 1uf cap, the low end bass is amazing on the burson


----------



## leeperry

2 bursons + 2 AD797B, that's good stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 much better than the other way around...the AD797B was feeding the burson w/ reverb, so it became pointless in the end("hall reverb" anyone?)...now it's much better, the bursons feed the 797B w/ a HiFi/analog colored wide(but not reverbed) sound, and I still get the 797B crazy SS 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 1363 was too colored, no matter what I tried...just like 1364, it's nice for a while...then it becomes boring, hopefully someday I'll find a combo that keeps on impressing me day after day and doesn't bore me after a while! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 One thing I know is that the burson's have a very high PRaT(and they don't sound utterly distorted like the 1363 or the Audio-GD parts), and AD797B has an amazing SS...just need to find the right combination.
*PS:* gee, been listening for a few hours...this combo is a tear-jerker


----------



## leeperry

alright, I should have my extra AD797BN's tomorrow...so I'll be able to try 6 of them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 while I'm at it, I'll bluetack the clocks...I've read several ppl giving positive feedback about this mod on PLL's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/ipo...ak-mod-434926/


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 0404USB/Audiophile USB are as good as it gets, the HD2 is lousy as hell....all that harmonic distortion is obviously due to poor design. funny that they boast about "120dB SNR" on their website, these are the DAC specs...not the card's! good thing they EOL this card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

So your saying the card is good now?


----------



## leeperry

haha, the man is crazy:
Jimmy’s Junkyard » Blog Archive » Asus Xonar U1 Midnight Mods Session
Jimmy’s Junkyard » Blog Archive » More… Asus Xonar U1 Mods

 I wonder if it'll make as much difference as he says


----------



## leeperry

ok, so 6*AD797BN gives a VERY impressive SS, but this is very boring...sounds lifeless compared to 2*Burson+2*AD797BN, the mad analog grain of the Burson's is just *GONE*...I've got the impression to be listening to an X-Fi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 basically the Burson's was giving a thrilling tape reel sound and taking the phones off my head, and the AD797B was giving an holographic out-of-this-world SS on top...damn! trumpet never sounded this good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll roll back the Burson's, put a hell lot of bluetack on the clocks...and order one more Burson to hear wth it is that I've been missing all along...I don't think it'd top the AD797BN as final buffer, but ya never know...it's very fun to try anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*EDIT:* ahhhhhhhh, much better


----------



## leeperry

BTW, I've flashed my card and run the ESI EWDM drivers now:






 they seem rather buggy(I got a "BAD POOL CALL" bsod for no apparent reason, I was simply setting up Reclock?!!?) but the ****** annoying bug w/ KS in the VIA drivers is now history 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the new 1.0 drivers released a few weeks ago don't allow master volume control at all, everyone complains about it on their support board...I've whined to their tech support


----------



## Calebcz

I'm using Win7 x64 and only working drivers are original Via "Envy24_Family_DriverV540F.exe". Foobar + WASAPI output works flawless.
 With ESI drivers i get BSOD immediately.

 Now i'm listening to this thread "BEST" - 2x OPA2604 + AD8022. Not bad at all. Maybe a little bit more bass for my taste. 

 1364 as final buffer was too punchier for me, but i must admit this chip does magic with mids.


----------



## leeperry

you did flash the firmware? on what card?

 I also rolled back to the VIA drivers, they are better coded than the AudioTrak.

 the 1363/1364 are nice, but 1028A is better as final buffer(yes I compared them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...more bass slam and less colored mids.


----------



## Calebcz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you did flash the firmware? on what card?_

 

No, i have HD2 Advance - already compatible with generic Envy drivers.

  Quote:


 the 1363/1364 are nice, but 1028A is better as final buffer(yes I compared them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...more bass slam and less colored mids. 
 

I don't want bass slam 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - i'm looking for deep but less punchy bass.

 I'm quite happy with AD8022 or LM4562 as final buffer so now i must find better omaps than 2604/2134 for first buffers.


----------



## leeperry

oh ok, but then you need to flash it to be able to use the AudioTrak drivers, it's very easy: ÇÁ·ÎµðÁö HD2 Series

 they both have pros and cons, I haven't made up my mind 100% yet I think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the VIA do 24bit, the AudioTrak give a BSOD if I do(only 16/32 possible)...but the VIA have a pretty darn annoying bug w/ KS on XP that the AudioTrak don't have...VIA told me that this bug doesn't exist on W7 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if you could spare me 2 mins to try, I'd really appreciate it!

 LT1677 is also amazing as final buffer, it retrieves a hell lot of details in the upper spectrum like the 4562 does...but the SS sounds so much more natural.

 but I'm really in love w/ the low end bass slam of the 1028A for now, really really nice chip...some of the best advices I ever got for op-amps were from Andrea, and before he changed his mind(again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) towards OPA1611(which I tried as final buffer and didn't like), the 1028/1677 were his favorites


----------



## fzman

here's my take on the hd-2, with silmic caps, eichmann rca, and blurry wima caps on the back


----------



## majkel

My friend used 2x OPA2228 in the place he formerly had been using OPA2604 and reported further improvement. The choice for the front buffer was tough for him but finally he settled with the AD8599 against AD8022. Actually, they both are very good.


----------



## leeperry

hah, you went a bit over the top on the caps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried to add decoupling caps on the op-amps, they were increasing the low end bass slam but lowering the low end extension...so I quickly took them out.

 there's already some decoupling caps stock I think(WIMA on mine, blue on yours).

 I think you would gain a lot from using single op-amps on the DAC output, each time I've tried dual op-amps they where shrinking the center channel.

 I'm expecting four AD8597, but so far I love my AD797B/LT1028A combo...it does everything wonderfully


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_here's my take on the hd-2, with silmic caps, eichmann rca, and blurry wima caps on the back_

 


 How does this card sound with the mods?


----------



## Calebcz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the VIA do 24bit, the AudioTrak give a BSOD if I do(only 16/32 possible)...but the VIA have a pretty darn annoying bug w/ KS on XP that the AudioTrak don't have...VIA told me that this bug doesn't exist on W7 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

24bit/192kHz kernel streaming with VIA drivers in Win7 works 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But WASAPI is better imho
  Quote:


 WASAPI is a new audio output method introduced in Windows Vista; among other things, it provides an exclusive mode that allows applications to take full control over soundcard's resources (muting any sounds played by other applications) and play unaltered bitstream without passing it through the Windows mixer. 
 

I have one question - what is your volume setting in AudioDeck/Prodigy control panel during listening music? 100%, 75%, 50% .... ?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Calebcz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_24bit/192kHz kernel streaming with VIA drivers in Win7 works 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But WASAPI is better imho

 I have one question - what is your volume setting in AudioDeck/Prodigy control panel during listening music? 100%, 75%, 50% .... ?_

 

yes, 24/192 KS works on XP SP3 as well...but there's a nasty bug:
 1) play a file in KS and set the master volume to 10%(I use headphones directly connected to the card)
 2) play simultaneously a youtube video

 = KS won't go through the master volume anymore(= full 0dB volume), I have to close youtube to make it 10% again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the original ICEnsemble drivers didn't make KS go through the windows master volume..VIA decided to do so, but completely failed implementing it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess it don't matter if you use an external amp...but when using headphones directly on the board, it's ******* annoying.

 they told me it was working fine on W7....can you confirm??

 they almost had it perfect...non-resampling KS in exclusive mode, very stable drivers...only this bug is damn annoying, but well I hate FLASH anyway, so no big deal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yes, I'm not sure either about the AudioTrak drivers, as when I set the card output to 0dB, the volume is louder than in the VIA drivers?! I usually have the VIA at 10% or so(my cd1k has a low impedance and a high sensitivity) but on the AudioTrak it's more like 2% 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 luckily I feed them 32bit, so the attenuation sounds OK.


----------



## Calebcz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1) play a file in KS and set the master volume to 10%(I use headphones directly connected to the card)
 2) play simultaneously a youtube video

 = KS won't go through the master volume anymore(= full 0dB volume), I have to close youtube to make it 10% again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This can't be done 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 While playing music via KS or WASAPI, soundcard can't play from another application simultaneously. So - playing in foobar meens no sound in youtube and no change with volume.
 But if i play youtube first, foobar with KS as second, then foobar doesn't produce sound and volume jumps at maximum (loud youtube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). 16/24/32 bit means no difference.
 But as i say - WASAPI is better and without this volume-bug.


----------



## leeperry

hummm, so that's the other way around?! very strange.

 I know KS works in exclusive mode, but still volume gets louder because the damn drivers are buggy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so if you first play KS then simultaneously youtube afterwards, no loud volume issue...but if you play youtube first then KS simultaneously afterwards, you get loud youtube?!?! hah, I will tell VIA that it's also broken on W7 then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 none of this occurs w/ the AudioTrak drivers, but they don't do 24bit, are rather unstable, I don't like the GUI...and they are updated every 4 years or so, as their tech support is inexistent.

 yes, WASAPI...but I'm XP resilient 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thanks for the test!


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_here's my take on the hd-2, with silmic caps, eichmann rca, and blurry wima caps on the back_

 

i am happy with it, in my regular pc, using the majkel recommended opamp combo of 2604s and an 8599 or an 8022 (can;t remember which-- it has been a while, and I bought a house and moved a month or so ago, and my diy lie is in complete dissarray!)

 i have the standard version and a deluxe. i bought a pci/pci-e riser board to try to use it with an external linear supply, but have not gotten around to trying it.


----------



## leeperry

well, majkel never tried the HD2(even less the Advance Deluxe), all I can say is that you should try 6x single op-amps..and you'll get a much wider center channel and a clearer stereo image.

 I tried OPA228P, and it was a joke compared to AD797B..and OPA2604 was laughable too(it comes stock on the HD2 DE).

 but well, "zee" Asus rep that floods the forum w/ dumb commercial advices said that the HD2 DE sucks compared to the STX...so many ppl on this forum talk about stuff they haven't even tried or heard, they just "know"!

 it cracks me up each time but well, e-cred has an admittance price to pay apparently..you have to "know", even if you never tried it yourself or get caught saying bs(like OPA-Moon=Burson hah 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).

 I think your pci/pci-e riser attempts are doomed to fail(just like mine did using a cheapo PEX8112 card that didn't have 12V cabled), but let us know if you like


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fzman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i am happy with it, in my regular pc, using the majkel recommended opamp combo of 2604s and an 8599 or an 8022 (can;t remember which-- it has been a while, and I bought a house and moved a month or so ago, and my diy lie is in complete dissarray!)

 i have the standard version and a deluxe. i bought a pci/pci-e riser board to try to use it with an external linear supply, but have not gotten around to trying it._

 

 I tried one out awhile back but wasn't that impressed with it. I have heard quite a few of the Envy chipset cards.
 I figured it would need some modding looking over the parts. The Envy cards are quite popular in ASIA based on what I have heard from associates. They are reasonable for the entry level price points I have seen them for.
 I know a freind or two that uses them but they are heavily modded in the opamps, caps and power sections. I usually mod all my cards myself eventually.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A few guys have messed with riser or modding soundcards to use external PSU. I have been talking with a designer about something in the same idea but a bit different. I have had the circuit modeler and PCB design software out myself...if anything pans out in that area I will drop you an email.


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## leeperry

oh lookee, but I didn't even say "Biggie Smalls" three times


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## leeperry

ah, 4*AD797B on the DAC output and leaving the buffer socket empty is really eye popping...the SS on this chip really tops everything else.

 too bad it really lacks low end slam now...I'll try my luck w/ some EQ/DSP...I want a buffer op-amp that would leave the SS untouched and simply add more bass, that doesn't seem possible(yes, I did try 6*AD797B 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 I'll try 2*AD8597


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## Calebcz

btw: how many opamps do you have at home right now? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 After some more tests - LM4562 is too cold for my ears - but highs are fantastic. 8022 is much more neutral as final buffer. And LT1364 returned to the Little Dot - i simply can't resist its mids magic.


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## leeperry

way too many 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 so did I get it right in my previous post w/ the youtube/KS volume issue on W7?

 yes, I think I'll put 2*LT1363 as final buffer...it's less versatile than 1028A, but it does magic to vocals! besides I just like to roll op-amps


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## Calebcz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so did I get it right in my previous post w/ the youtube/KS volume issue on W7?_

 

yes

  Quote:


 I just like to roll op-amps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

Right now i prefer rolling omaps over tubes becouse of zero warm-up times. But there is so many combination .....


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## leeperry

I never got into the tube madness, I've got a dumb cat roaming the house...the first thing she'd do is stick her nose right on the money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 besides the idea of my audio going through some old *ss technology kinda worries me...the THD figures don't look good(even though they're rather meaningless), and I don't think the SS would be as "sophisticated" as the top op-amps


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## leeperry

ok cool, I've just been told that the VIA drivers engineering team is looking into the KS volume issue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I think I could get rid of the buffer op-amp if I set the jumper that increases the HP out amplification(200% instead of 70%).

 I just want the AD797B...louder, basically


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## leeperry

so I've tried to set the HP out to 200% amp(instead of 70%), SQ was much worse...roll back! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and the problem w/ the HD2 is that as soon as you add a buffer opamp it will kill the SS of the opamps you set on the DAC output...and the AD797B is nice but rather bass shy on the DAC output, and it's not unity gain stable!

 currently listening to 4*LT1363 on the DAC output and I left the buffer socket empty...good bass, amazing SS, and that magic color on vocals. I'll try to add 2*LT1128 as final buffer, they seem to be the "unity gain stable" version of the LT1028 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 or maybe 2*LT1360 or 6*LT1363, time will tell! but I won't mess around w/ opamps that are not +1 stable anymore...really don't wanna screw up the card, my ears or my beloved cd1k


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## leeperry

ok, awesomeness!!! after explaining the issue to VIA several times, they've given me 5.50 beta drivers that supposedly fix all the problems w/ KS! on both XP and W7 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if anyone wanna try them, PM me...they're not WHQL yet of course.

 if only Asus had been as reponsive when I annoyed the hell out of them w/ bit-perfection...but C-Media are just a bunch of amateurs, even Realtek does better drivers..


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## kranius

3 bursons w/ ±12V mod is ownage imo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 can't wait for my regulators to be shipped


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## MethodarN

Many peoples says: 2x opa627 on adapter - best chip
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 someone listened this chip?


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## Calebcz

I was using 2x2604 + AD8022 about 2 weeks. 8022 isn't bad, but for my taste is too punchy and i'm missing deep bass. Also trebles is little bit "dirty".

 LM4562 as final buffer has excelent bass, but overal sound is too harsh. I don't like this chip at all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 AD275 is absolutely neutral and .... absolutely boring.

 So what's next? AD823 .... hmmm, interesting


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## leeperry

2604 and 4562 are worthless...yes, try more AD parts IMO...4*AD797B on the DAC output worked great IME.

 how's OP275 in your LDI+? my next soundcard has them...soldered...can't roll


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## Calebcz

OP275 (not AD - sorry) in LD+ is neutral, good sounding, only LT1364 from my opams collection is better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I tried 2604, 2134, AD8022, MC33078, LME49722, M4562, AD823 and OP275 was second best.

 In Prodigy as final buffer OP275 isn't so good, dull sound and "music" si gone.




 AD797B ? ~10 Eur per piece is quite expensive, maybe someday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 What about AD797AN - there are many offers on ebay.

 What is your next soundcard?


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## leeperry

well OP275 is made by AD...isn't it? 



 hah, yes...that's the problem w/ blind opamp rolling, what works here won't work there.
 this said, AD797B on the DAC output is fantastic....add a burson v2 as final buffer, and you're good to go 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm getting a Musiland Monitor 02US...I got bored of rolling, and I like the idea of getting my audio out of the PC case on its own external PSU....I should have it early next week 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 AD797A is a lower grade, supposedly not as good: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/aud...-v-2-a-397691/


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## Calebcz

Thank you for your help so far, I will be looking for some AD797B.


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## leeperry

np! the best buffer I've heard was the LT1028ACN8...but it's not stable on the HD2, you'd need someone to look it up w/ an oscilloscope and possibly add a 510Ω resistor on pin 3 to make it behave....it might be very much worth it though, as it's simply astounding w/ the AD797B on the DAC output 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I found LT1363/LT1364 too colored to my taste on the HD2....I hope OP275 will sound acceptable on the Musiland


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## earfanatic

As I read the LT1028 data sheet it does not seem to be enough just soldering one 510Ω resistor to it to stabilize. As it says to do so in a real different function.
 It can be noticed easily you just desimmetrize it.

 One said before the lt1028 is stable when it has at least 510Ω input impedance. When I read the HD2's DAC data sheet it already has a 610Ω resistor on it.

 So altrough I already payed for a pair of lt1028 I wont try to stabilize it because it is not so easy to do so.
 Do anyone tried lt1128?


----------



## earfanatic

I need suggestions:
 I already have ad797B-s for my HD2 just looking for the right buffer.
 I know, i could by a Burson, but it is expensive. If anyone has a suggestion, please tell.


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## leeperry

ok, but does the 610Ω DAC load make it to the final LPF? there's already 4 single opamps between the AK4396 and the final LPF...LT1128 should be money, but it's said to sound pretty bad. I can't think of any other final LPF that wouldn't kill the AD797B SS...and yes I tried zillions of them! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 you can try your luck w/ OPA827/OPA211 if you like, but if you put a dual opamp in there it will annihilate the AD797B fantastic SS.

 2*LT1028AC is well worth the hassle if you know some skilled technician w/ an oscilloscope...this combo is actually the best I've ever heard from any audio gear....797B amazing SS + 1028 slamming bass and "sugar coated" sound: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6402627-post77.html + high gain JRC4580 to drive headphones = awesomeness!

 I've got a whole bunch of LT1028AC/1128C handy, and my Firestone Spitfire DAC is said to be compatible by the manufacturer...I'll compare them and report back if you like.


----------



## earfanatic

Errr... actually it is 620Ω .. noted on the dac 's datasheet. Not shure the HD2 isn't differ from that. But on the datasheet it is before the buffer + and - inputs. My concern is there is no summing operation example in the LT1028 datasheet so there is no real example about stabilizing the opamp in this configuration. I would'nt try it if I do not know what to do. I couldn't found any info on the internet using this opamp in this situation ... and unity gain.


----------



## Incognito73

... I've already asked this in another thread, but just noticed this Audiotrak HD2 resurrected thread. Did anyone had a play with AudioTrak *7.1HiFi* opamps ? I mean, is the opamp circuit the same ... apart from additional buffers ?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Errr... actually it is 620Ω .. noted on the dac 's datasheet. Not shure the HD2 isn't differ from that. But on the datasheet it is before the buffer + and - inputs. My concern is there is no summing operation example in the LT1028 datasheet so there is no real example about stabilizing the opamp in this configuration. I would'nt try it if I do not know what to do. I couldn't found any info on the internet using this opamp in this situation ... and unity gain._

 

yeah, LT1028 is painful...anyway, you still like the 4*AD797B?

 the stock opamps are so lousy on the HD2 Advance Deluxe...as it can sound really really good w/ some good chips


----------



## earfanatic

Yes, I like the ad797B very much! I just dont want to ruin it with bad buffers.
 I will figure it out, but currently I can only ask help on the forums.


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## leeperry

stick to single opamps, and you can try LT1115/LT1128/OPA211/OPA827/OPA1611/OPA627BP/etc etc

 rolling is poison, but you know that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the problem is that, expect if you ask for free samples, in the end it'll have cost you more than a Burson V2..


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## earfanatic

Yeah, thats what I expect... but not what I am planning for.

 So.. I looked at the LT1028 graphs. There is no way to stabilize it unity gain. BUT.... what if I set gain greater than 2. Like 2,2. Then it should be stable. What can it cause to the output then? (beside the amplification)
 The 620Ω resistor in the output should be paralelled to give 250Ω. Then it will be about... 2.24 times amplification. Thats exactly 7dB. Am I right?
 For this the 620Ω resistor should be paralelled with a 420Ω resistor to give a 250Ω resistance.


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## leeperry

ask majkel


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## earfanatic

Done! :-D

 He said it is possible only the volume setting will be harder and the clipping range can be reached sooner... BUT the ad797B-s were already dimmer so this could be a solution without any compromise!
 Need further checking though. I dont jet have the LT1028s.


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## leeperry

you could also try LT1357, a very famous EE keeps pushing it on this forum: Burr-Brown OPA627BP's? - Gearslutz.com


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## thoppa

Hi all,

 It's a bit off topic, but does anyone know where I can get a dual single to99 to dip8 adapter from ? I'd like to use two LME49710HA op amps in a dip8 socket.

 Thanks !

 Tom


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## leeperry

here: TO-99 Single-to-dual Op-Amp Adapter


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## thoppa

Thanks ! u r a *


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## earfanatic

I looked the sound card for a while... and I found no way to modify the resistors exept with damage. It is so small and well populated.
 I share your opinion leeperry.... wont bother with opamps not working out of the box. My lt1028 seems not arriving from Japan anyway.


----------



## earfanatic

Leeperry:
 Have You ever managed, to try the Lt1128?

 How about LT1678 or 1364?


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## leeperry

nope, I didn't try LT1128....I was so ******* off that LT1028 wouldn't work that I quickly dropped the ball off the HD2. it worked fine for a while, then it started making random "pops", and then all it gave was 0dB white noise on the left channel for some reason 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the card is working fine w/ 2*LT1364+1*OPA2132 as I've sold it to someone else, and the 2*LT1028ACN8 work fine too....I've got no clue wth happened and why it worked for a while before going terribly wrong 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried two pairs of 1028AC and one pair of 1028CS btw.

 LT1363 is nice but colored, very boring after a while...and LT1677 is very bright as final buffer on the HD2, it acts like some sort of super-LM4562..bringing up a lot of trebles details, but it gets odd after a while.

 I honestly think that LT1357 would be worth a shot, and maybe LT1122AC...I tried LT1115 and it clearly wasn't as good as LT1028AC.


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## earfanatic

The reason LT1028 worked for a while is as according to the DAC-s data sheet and sample circuit, there is no unity gain operation on the buffer but -0.8 or something. The LT1028 data sheet said that it is stable above +2 or -1. Close.... isn't it.

 A read about LT1128 a lot then the poster turned to LT1360 and said it's a little better. To be honest the LT1128 is a bit slow comparing to the 1360.

 I'l try the 1360 ... altrough I cant compare it to 1028.
 Anyway, the very same time I hear the sound that is pleasurable for me, I'l stop this madness. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I dont say I dont enjoy it.


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## leeperry

yes, LT1360 is another flavor of LT1363..if I were you I'd try 1122AC and 1357


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## earfanatic

I ordered 1357. What do I have to know about 1122AC?


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## leeperry

I've got some, I will try them in the Firestone Spitfire....I've also seen it recommmended for CMOY's

 BTW, that's what the Firestone tech support told me about 1028:
  Quote:


 The LPF structure of our Spitfire is same circuit as the TI’s recommend circuit; only around components is different.

 The Stable Gain of LT1028 as -1 means this OP only can be used to a Negative Amplifier.

 The Differential LPF Circuit belongs to Negative Amplifier applying so the gain is negative.

 LPF Gain of our spitfire is AV = -(3.3K / 1.8K) = -1.83. 
 

does it make sense to you if read the PCM1793 datasheet? because in the beginning they were mixing it w/ PCM1794 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and indeed LT1028 is recommended as LPF at page 20 of the PCM1794 datasheet.


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## earfanatic

Yes I understand what they say...

 The calculations are okay... You can check and try values here

 The problem is You need to add (change) resistor values on the card. And modigiing the card seems risky. Anyway my card is new and I dont like ruin warranty.

 Maybe solder resistor to the dip socket can work.... but with that I can only decrease amplification. :-|


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## leeperry

nice link, I'll check it out!

 but why did they tell me that it'd be better if I used unity gain stable opamps...if the LPF is negative on the PCM1793/94? ah well, I'll take their word for it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 majkel said that if you add a 510Ω on pin3 of LT1028, it will become unity gain stable.

 and I've nagged the hell out of the Auzen tech support to know whether LT1028AC/AD797B would be compatible w/ their cards, and they've recently updated their compatibility list: Auzentech, Inc. : Introducing OPAMPS, the Ultimate Sound Card Upgrade

 OPA627 is unity gain stable, 637 is only stable for >4....but AD8620 is unity gain stable, so I don't see why it wouldn't work on the last 2 cards...especially considering that the X-Raider feeds ±12V to the opamps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*PS:* care to show me a screenshot of your link w/ their values please? the spitfire also feeds ±12V.


----------



## earfanatic

Of which values expecially?
 The link contains a calculation only for differential amp. amplification. It is true for all the opamps.

 For checking the gain of the X-Raider or the Spitfire You have to know their circuit, find the resistors according to the graphic on the link (ignore the other components) and enter values.


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## MethodarN

*leeperry*
 Firestone Spitfire > Musiland 02 > Prodigy HD2 ?


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## leeperry

well, it's a bit more complicated than that...especially w/ Burson's on the HD2


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## MethodarN

external dacs didn't use impulse PSU it's a big +
 U can creat you're own PSU with tramsformer
 Result: sounds become music


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## leeperry

yes, sound is much clearer on the spitfire thanks to its EMI-free environment, discrete linear regulated PSU and toslink connection...but its stock LM4562 cannot compete w/ AD797B or Burson.


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## MethodarN

why not dr.dac2? 4x replacement opamps(1x for headphones)


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## leeperry

well, the old spitfire model(w/ the dragon on the front panel) has a lower grade S/PDIF input chip(CS8414 instead of DIR9001 in the new spitfire 2009 model), but you can roll opamps! and there's zillions of huge caps that were not in the new model.

 I've just received one...I will try 2*LT1028ACN8 later today, and a Burson V2/2*AD797BR ASAP 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've also read about ppl saying that changing the 0.2A fuse to audiophile grade could help, but I can only find them in 5 packs on ebay...I'd like to try one I think 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it doesn't make much sense to use a high grade PSU on a crappy fuse...

 BTW earfanatic, you could also try 2*OPA627BP as final buffer maybe?


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## earfanatic

No way! :-D Those are highly overpriced... 
 I considered them before... but the answer was rather not.


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## leeperry

well, yes..4 of them + adapters will run you for the price of a Burson basically...try an OPA-Earth maybe? some of them show up in the classifieds from time to time here on head-fi.

 anyway...I looove LT1028AC, and it works fine in the spitfire (so far 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





): 



 



 this chip is just as good as RS says: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6402627-post77.html

 it's well worth it to look for a compatible audio adapter instead of the other way around IMHO....LT1028AC gives an amazing holographic SS, what used to blow me away on the HD2 is back w/ a vengeance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you could have a look at the HA-INFO NG27/NG94 maybe? the NG94 looks money and would prolly work w/ LT1028/AD797? the neutrik plugs are fake and the pots have stereo imbalance at low volume, though.

 here's some internal photos(they're cheaper on ebay I think):
http://www.audiophonics.fr/info-ng27...02-p-5006.html

http://www.audiophonics.fr/info-ng98...52-p-5008.html

 you could even run them on this kind of PSU to get a clearer signal: http://www.velleman.eu/images/products/2/ps1303.jpg


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## earfanatic

I really don't wanna try that many. I ordered some of the most appreciated (and unity gain) opamps, 1357, 1678, 1360. I will try those and the one i like most stays.
 Maybe later I will upgrade to discrete opamps, but before that I would like to build a new amp too.
 I dont have any source but the computer this is why the soundcard upgrade was in priority.


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## leeperry

you're wasting your time w/ dual opamps as final buffer, they will annihilate the 797B SS...but don't take my word for it, try it and tell us


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## earfanatic

Only 1678 is dual... there is a single version LT1677 if the 1678 seems good as dual, I will order 2 x 1677 on a browndog. 1678 still worth a try before.


----------



## leeperry

they're all worthless compared to LT1028A IMO...as RS said here, 1028 has a thick low end bass, an holographic SS and rolled off trebles...simply perfect for headphones use 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




REVIEW: Ray Samuels Emmeline HR-2 - SGHeadphones
  Quote:


 As Mr. Samuels once remarked, the LT1028 is like putting sugar all over your sound. It has a very liquid, sweet, and warm midrange that exhibits sharp bass and treble roll off. Unlike the Analog Devices op-amps, it is not dark. In fact, low level details flow through with greater clarity and definition. 
 

FWIW, a friend of mine sold his STX after he bought the NG27 and put some nice opamps in it


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## earfanatic

I will figure it out...

 My headphone broke too... it was a bit old, but served me well. Now I dream for a HD600 or something. But until then my primary output is a hifi system, not headphones.

 I understand some opamps work better than other but lt1028 still unstable in the prodigy HD2 which was my vote in this year upgrade. I not every month have the opportunity to spend play money. But I very appreciate every help in choosing, making my system better because... hey we all love music, don't we!

 If I have the opportunity I will stock some lt1028 too. The ones I bought turned out to be lost at the post. I hope for refund, the seller still seems reliable.


----------



## leeperry

all I'm saying is that you could put your AD797B to good use in another audio interface, that would also be compatible w/ LT1028...besides the HD2 is nice, but its ground shielding sucks to a great extent.


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## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_besides the HD2 is nice, but its ground shielding sucks to a great extent._

 

I considered a stand-alone dac... and lot's of components I still would need. But in the end Im happy with the sound card option...
 Yes I have plans for the left over 2pc ad797 too. First I wanted to sell the two but now I rather keep them for later diy-ing. Especially since I found that 797's are out of production.


----------



## leeperry

the best gear is always phased out at some point...that baffles me a bit.

 I'd die to find an "Hoontech DAC II" second hand, but it's nowhere to be found..man, would that sing w/ some good opamps!

 there's still the AD797BR, though...but BN can be useful nevertheless.


----------



## earfanatic

I studied the circuit of the HD2 .. and the opamps data sheet.
 After some research.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I introduce You the stable LT1028 in the HD2! Yes! 
 I could set the gain to ~2.2 and actually it is doing its job since 12 hours perfectly.
 I checked on scope too... it is OK. And sounds sweet!
 Need to mention that due to the higher amplification on the buffer, the volume on my computer system clips after 75% so the volume bar must be around 70% but the volume is the same as it was at 100% before. Just need some attention.

 To do this You need:
 2x 330ohm resistor (1%) not SMT needed!
 2x 430ohm resistor (1%) not SMT needed!

 The soldering can be done on the back of the card on the DIP8 sockets legs with no damage.
 I will post photos and chematics if anyone is interested to do it.

 Now the configuration is 4x Ad797B on the DAC and 2x LT1028 as buffer with 2.2x gain.

 By the way after hours of working the LT1028 seems hotter than the AD-s but it seems okay.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I introduce You the stable LT1028 in the HD2! Yes! 
 I could set the gain to ~2.2 and actually it is doing its job since 12 hours perfectly.
 I checked on scope too... it is OK. And sounds sweet!_

 






 LT1028A hot? anything you put in the final LPF stage on the HD2 usually ends up bassy as can be.

 maybe those resistors you added are messing w/ the FR somehow?

 anyway, I plain on doing the same thing w/ 2*AD797B in the Firestone Spitfire, and 2*LT1028A in the Firestone Cute Beyond....still awaiting confirmation whether the latter would work.


----------



## earfanatic

Basically what I do is lower the resistor value in the inputs of the LT1028 .. thus setting the gain of the opamp. (sounds strange?)
 The other way would be in the feedback but it is an RC that I didn't want to ruin.

 The LT1028 has imput resistance 20kohm in differential mode... so this little mod wouldn't change it too much.
 I think the heat is from normal operation. In this case Im glad it isn't in one package.


----------



## frizzup

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I studied the circuit of the HD2 .. and the opamps data sheet.
 After some research.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I introduce You the stable LT1028 in the HD2! Yes! 
 I could set the gain to ~2.2 and actually it is doing its job since 12 hours perfectly.
 I checked on scope too... it is OK. And sounds sweet!
 Need to mention that due to the higher amplification on the buffer, the volume on my computer system clips after 75% so the volume bar must be around 70% but the volume is the same as it was at 100% before. Just need some attention.

 To do this You need:
 2x 330ohm resistor (1%) not SMT needed!
 2x 430ohm resistor (1%) not SMT needed!

 The soldering can be done on the back of the card on the DIP8 sockets legs with no damage.
 I will post photos and chematics if anyone is interested to do it.

 Now the configuration is 4x Ad797B on the DAC and 2x LT1028 as buffer with 2.2x gain.

 By the way after hours of working the LT1028 seems hotter than the AD-s but it seems okay._

 


 Please post photos of LT1028's resistors and soldering with schematics and keep us updated with the performance of tehm under load.

 Well done
 frizzup


----------



## leeperry

I thought you meant "hot" as "bright", my bad!

 hot means oscillation usually? LT1028 has never been hot for me, I checked yesterday in the Firestone Spitfire(which is not ventilated in anyway)...after running 3 days in a row non stop, it was hardly warm.

 maybe you could add an Antec Spotcool fan of some sort: Antec SpotCool

 BTW, in the spitfire 1028A is far louder than 797B


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## earfanatic

I meant quite warm by hot.

 It doesn't need cooling i think. Maybe the HD2's design cause this.
 When used with headphone the output level is about 1/2 of the total so means less heat.
 But I used on a power amplifier with max output to test it when it got quite warm. The volume level could also cause this.
 The opamps still working beautifully.

 The first I listened to the AD797 + LT1028 combo it was so natural ... 
 I only listened to the "circuit" if it works okay firstly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Only later started to listen some tracks i know, then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... I realized how great this sounds!!

 I'm happy with this.


----------



## leeperry

yes it's the magic combo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I currently run AD797B in my Spitfire DAC and use this plugin to recreate a tubier sound: Trident A-Range Equalizer by Softube

 it's also very very nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I only used 1028 on headphones on the HD2, didn't try the line-out.


----------



## earfanatic

Looks nice.

 I use Linux. If someone read this and found this useful:
 Prodigy HD2 works great under Linux, is supported a while ago. I use currently with PulseAudio. Needed to install Pulse volume control to make buttons on keyboard work. Then it's perfect.


----------



## earfanatic

Addition to the heat dissipation: i found out the opamps temperature is the same when not playing anything at all. So this is normal in the HD2.
 (maybe are they biased class-A 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## leeperry

ahhh, Linux...getting rid of the windows audio management nonsense's gotta be a god bless 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 a friend of mine wrote about his feelings on linux audio here: http://sites.google.com/site/compute...inux-for-audio


----------



## frizzup

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I studied the circuit of the HD2 .. and the opamps data sheet.
 After some research.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I introduce You the stable LT1028 in the HD2! Yes! 
 I could set the gain to ~2.2 and actually it is doing its job since 12 hours perfectly.
 I checked on scope too... it is OK. And sounds sweet!
 Need to mention that due to the higher amplification on the buffer, the volume on my computer system clips after 75% so the volume bar must be around 70% but the volume is the same as it was at 100% before. Just need some attention.

 To do this You need:
 2x 330ohm resistor (1%) not SMT needed!
 2x 430ohm resistor (1%) not SMT needed!

 The soldering can be done on the back of the card on the DIP8 sockets legs with no damage.
 I will post photos and chematics if anyone is interested to do it.

 Now the configuration is 4x Ad797B on the DAC and 2x LT1028 as buffer with 2.2x gain.

 By the way after hours of working the LT1028 seems hotter than the AD-s but it seems okay._

 

I very interested in photos and schematics of how you got the LT1028 working please.

 Frizzup


----------



## earfanatic

Hello, so this is it:

 I have crappy photos....








 Basically, what You do is paralleling the input resistors of the buffer opamp. Thus You set the resistor group value lower.

 This picture is showing the shematics with the values I meassured on the HD2 itself, red line shows the modification:





 If You use 1 chennel (mono) opamps like I did, You don't have to to it on every input leg, solder only on the back of the card on the socket legs.
 Those are 2 chennel (stereo) opamp leg outputs so hold in mind the legs are different than on Your 1 chennel opamp.

 This is the job to do (viewing from the TOP of the card)





 Take care when You work on the back of the panel, the legs will be in mirror!

 So this is what I did. Someone may correct me if it is not perfect solution but this works for days now without problem.

 Note that the buffer has a higher amplification now, with this it reaches clipping volume sooner. So don't turn to 100% volume, it will distort.
 Mine setting is 72%. (I dont know if You can see volume in percent on Windows)

 If anyone has a note, welcome.


----------



## leeperry

The best sounding audio integrated opamps - Page 34 - diyAudio


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Addition to the heat dissipation: i found out the opamps temperature is the same when not playing anything at all. So this is normal in the HD2.
 (maybe are they biased class-A 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_

 

No they are not biased to class A -you were making a joke right?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. They are still powered on even if they are passing no signal. Any opamp will generate some heat, however if the heat is excessive you may have an osciallation issue.

 Great mods you did there. You noted in a previous posting that you were studying the circuitry and figuring out how they work. Great stuff! Many get into opamp swapping but never worry about what they are doing. They never try to figure out the circuitry or study any electronics theory.


----------



## earfanatic

Thanks!

 How can I found out this? Can it be on higher frequencies?


----------



## leeperry

I'd hate to break it, but you could have tried LT1128 and saved you quite a bit of trouble IMHO...I'm currently listening to it


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd hate to break it, but you could have tried LT1128 and saved you quite a bit of trouble IMHO...I'm currently listening to it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I thought about that too...
 But the typical slew rate of the LT1128 is 6V/us compared to the 1028's 15V/us.
 And how is the sound compared to LT1028?


----------



## leeperry

different, yet very similar...I only have 1128C, not AC...so it's hard to compare it to 1028AC.
 clearer trebles but less bass basically...1028AC is just a silly head nodder


----------



## earfanatic

Well, I borrowed a real oscilloscope (because the one I used before is actually a computer with a software), and checked the LT1028 output. No oscillation. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And I found out the volume can be set to 90% actually. Distortion starting from 92%.
 I think it works great. Only if there wont be clipping at all. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But for those I think I would have to lift the power supply of the opamp.


----------



## ManuLM

how did you observe the oscillation on the 1028 before you modify the board ? (what did you see / hear ?)

 also have you checked the dc offset ?


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how did you observe the oscillation on the 1028 before you modify the board ? (what did you see / hear ?)

 also have you checked the dc offset ?_

 

No I didn't check the oscillation before the modification. I had enough information to believe it. (in addition the opamp datasheet tells it to)

 If there is oscillation that can be seen on a test signal ... for example if it is not clear but smudged... im sure it can be heard as a strange sound.
 (If You click the link You see what I mean: http://www.servowatt.de/images_conte...e16/img_01.jpg )

 Actually before the clipping volume reached there is oscillation on the sine wave I tested. But I keep the volume lower than that and below that level the sine wave test seemed cristal clear.

 I checked the DC offset now. It is 0.9 mV and 5.8 mV on the other channel.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how did you observe the oscillation on the 1028 before you modify the board ? (what did you see / hear ?)

 also have you checked the dc offset ?_

 

I thought I mentioned it on HFR, but in the first place everything went fine w/ the 1028AC as final buffer....then it started making random "pops", that were literally turning me nuts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 then at some point it completely refused to work, I tried 2 pairs of 1028AC and they would just remain silent on the right channel and output loud white noise on the left channel...and 1028CS would just output very high pitched sound then become silent(ultrasonics?) a few secs later.

 try LT1128ACN8, that'll cut you a lot of slack IMHO.

 DC offset is low on the HD2, because it's got caps to kill DC current on the HP out.


----------



## ManuLM

mmm, these dc offset are pretty OK.
 My point was did you hear oscillation before changing the circuit. Datasheets must garantee their datas, so the guys might be a bit conservative in what they comunicate there. 

 (praying to have this 1028 working without having to modify the board  
 I want to try  )


----------



## ManuLM

ok thanks Leeperry, I guess I got lost in your posts


----------



## leeperry

1028 as final buffer will work....for how long remains to be seen


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_1028 as final buffer will work....for how long remains to be seen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Wow great advice!

 If it fails after a bit of time, it does not work because it is not stable.
 So why are you telling people it works?


----------



## ManuLM

hey the key question is, does it sounds that good ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

No the key question is, does it even work in this circuit, if it fails what good is it?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_does it sounds that good ?_

 

1028? it sounds amazing: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6402627-post77.html


----------



## ManuLM

I actually meant how good did it sound before it fails. I understood it did work for some time (which sounds strange to me: was a component damaged then ?). 

 Let's see also if the mod posted here ensure proper stabilization. HD2 has a real advantage over ST-STX, that is price ...


----------



## leeperry

I don't think so...coz I put 2*L1364CN8+1*OPA2132P on it and sold it second hand, it's working perfectly fine.

 and the LT1028ACN8 chips work fine too, as I'm currently using them in my Firestone Spitfire...blind opamp rolling is a terrible thing to do anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OTOH, a company like Lake People sells +$500 headamps....yet fill them w/ crappy 5532's and when I asked why no AD797/LT1028, they told me that this would drastically increase the price....many companies put sockets to avoid making you pay a huge markup on the opamps, simple as that.

 a HD2 DE blows the stx out of the water, and you know it...as you own both, don't be shy we're amongst friends


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I actually meant how good did it sound before it fails. I understood it did work for some time (which sounds strange to me: was a component damaged then ?). 

 Let's see also if the mod posted here ensure proper stabilization. HD2 has a real advantage over ST-STX, that is price ..._

 

Earfanatic modded his card to use these, maybe you would want to talk with him as he may have some tips. It may be as simple as adding a resistor to the input. A few pages back he posted a few pics of some of his mods.


----------



## ManuLM

yes indeed I will try this


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes indeed I will try this_

 

Post your impressions when you get a chance to test it out.


----------



## earfanatic

I will post back later to tell if it's still working but I don't see why it wouldn't.

 The LT1028 IS stable above gain 2. The original HD2 buffer stage has ~0.8 x gain. In my HD2 it is now >2. That's all. And it's working fine.

 I don't recommend risking to misbehave an opamp in a circuit when the data sheet tells Yo it will do so. The datasheet made to help You. It helped me.
 If You want to use LT1028 -- i can tell it's fantastic -- then use my mod or make a new one and post it here.


----------



## ManuLM

OK, thanks, I will do it as soon as I have received all parts.

 Looking at supply, I feel the HD2 voltage may be a bit low. Datasheet takes ±15V as reference. I believe the HD2 has no step up converter, so at best it supplies ±12V. Did you measure it btw?
 Changing is not going to be easy though, apart from using an external supply.


----------



## ROBSCIX

It would be lower the +/- 12 probably more like 8 volts possibly?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_±12V. Did you measure it btw?_

 

the opamps are fed ±8.8V on the HD2....and Burson modders recommend to take off the ±9V regulators and add ±12V chips instead, but what's true for a burson discrete opamp might not be true for an IC opamp...OTOH, the 1028AC has a high PSRR so it can cope with a dirty power supply.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Electronics are never precise in the real world although they are on paper. If you measured 8.8 another would measure 8.1 and another would measue 8.9...etc. There is always a tolerance of what is acceptable. This is why a Burson is not really acceptable to use without the circuit modification because you're underpowering it in most cases. I think many would aslo suggest to use more then 12 with a Burson.

 I know you are new to opamps and electronics as a whole but the PSRR of an opamp really has nothing to do with a "dirty" supply as you're suggesting. You should do more research into it. A "dirty" power supply has lots of ripple and EMI and RFI..etc...

 PSRR is a bit hard to explain but it has to do more with how much the output voltage changes if the power supply voltage changes.
 In a perfect model, the signal output of an opamp should not change even if the power supply voltage changes but in many cases it does. PSRR is a ratio of the signal output over the supply voltage so have nothing to do with dirty power.

 Hope this helps.


----------



## ManuLM

Robscix, why do you refer to EMI &RFI when talking about a dirty supply? Or do you mean a dirty environment? Supply delivers voltage, not EM wave, right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and since PSRR measures the attenuation of a ripple ( initially injected on the supply) on the delivered signal, that somewhat deals with dirty power and the ability of the OA to get along with it. We typically inject a sine wave on the supply and see how attenuated it is on the ouput signal. 
 So I do not understand your point here. Or could you be a bit more precise?


----------



## leeperry

he's just trying to play smart, and fails blatlantly...as usual 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 jkeny & nikongod know what PSRR is: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/p...2/#post6503680
  Quote:


 A very large part of what you are hearing is a result of the power supply rejection ratio (PSRR) of the audio circuits.

 With high enough PSRR, the power supply doesn't matter much. With low PSRR it is critical. 
 

if you wanna hear jokes, ask clowns...if you wanna hear good technical advice, ask professionals.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Robscix, why do you refer to EMI &RFI when talking about a dirty supply? Or do you mean a dirty environment? Supply delivers voltage, not EM wave, right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and since PSRR measures the attenuation of a ripple ( initially injected on the supply) on the delivered signal, that somewhat deals with dirty power and the ability of the OA to get along with it. We typically inject a sine wave on the supply and see how attenuated it is on the ouput signal. 
 So I do not understand your point here. Or could you be a bit more precise?_

 

Any electrical device will produce EMI... any wire with a current produces EM. That is basic electrical theory.
 Just saying PSRR is for dirty power supplies, does little to explain anything to anybody. We are talking about PSRR of an opamp. I offered a bit of elaboration as I am not sure of his point...
 A dirty supply is just that and not sure how PSRR copes with it in anyway unless the ripple is substantial. When I think of a dirty power supply, I think of noise from any source in the power.
 I would welcome a bit more of a detailed explanation if you have one some as of my electronic theory classes are a bit fuzzy now.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Sorry double post


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_he's just trying to play smart, and fails blatlantly...as usual 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Really?, just trying to correct your incorrect understanding of it. You stated in another thread you have little understanding of electronics so you would think you would welcome correct information. No need to troll.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_jkeny & nikongod know what PSRR is: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/p...2/#post6503680_

 

Well that is good for them but considering your post here:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OTOH, the 1028AC has a high PSRR so it can cope with a dirty power supply._

 

You do not know what it is unless you're mixing up a term or two.
 Pulling some blurb out of another forum and using that to back up what you say is lazy.
 Unless you have the background to even understand what they are saying you are wasting your time. Did you actually read the post you quoted as they didn't say anything about the PSU being dirty....see lack of background on your part.
 Please if I am so incorrect, lets hear your take on it, without posting other people ideas and information.


----------



## leeperry

jokes aside, I've just ordered a bunch of AD797BN...I wonder if they'll sound perfectly identical to AD797BR, because if you compare the LME49720NA/HA chips they're supposed to have the exact same sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I've always suspected those SOIC8>DIP8 browndogs to ruin the SQ...that's definitely what this guy is saying:
10pcs Dual SOIC to DIP-8 Convert PCB Adapter SMD OPA627 - eBay

 I discussed this matter w/ the browndog guy, but he told me that he had major hearing problems 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and when I ran comparisons w/ LT1028ACN8/AD797BN directly soldered to DIP8 browndogs, or installed into additional sockets..the sound was also very different.

 I would also like to try two single burson's on a DIP8 browndog...because some french guy ran measurements on dual burson's and said that there was quite a lot of stereo interaction too..


----------



## ManuLM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any electrical device will produce EMI... any wire with a current produces EM. That is basic electrical theory.
 Just saying PSRR is for dirty power supplies, does little to explain anything to anybody. We are talking about PSRR of an opamp. I offered a bit of elaboration as I am not sure of his point...
 A dirty supply is just that and not sure how PSRR copes with it in anyway unless the ripple is substantial. When I think of a dirty power supply, I think of noise from any source in the power.
 I would welcome a bit more of a detailed explanation if you have one some as of my electronic theory classes are a bit fuzzy now._

 

EMI is produced indeed, but I wonder why you bring it to the equation of a dirty power supply. 
 Dirty environment yes, very strong EM like TX antennas (like in a cell phone transmitting some datas) , local oscillators / clocks, thermal noise, crosstalk sources on the PCB level are generating/catching noise but I do not see it as specific nor critical from the supply source perspective, thus my question.

 As for PSRR, for me the simplest way of looking at it is to see how we measure it. As said before, a ripple is injected on the supply source, and measured on the output signal. The attenuation gives the PSRR, which is in some nice datasheets given as a function of the ripple frequency.
 I remember there is a detailed description on an app note from TI, will post it here if I can put my hands on it.


 EDIT: here it is http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slyt202/slyt202.pdf


----------



## ManuLM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_and I've always suspected those SOIC8>DIP8 browndogs to ruin the SQ...that's definitely what this guy is saying:
10pcs Dual SOIC to DIP-8 Convert PCB Adapter SMD OPA627 - eBay_

 

what the guy claims is interesting, but if he cares so much about SQ and signal integrity, he would have added at least one ground plane layer, there is none here (dual layer PCB) so my take is we are not seeing top notch design here. 
 But that's quite a fair level of details... for an ebay page


----------



## ManuLM

Okay, managed to get all parts, dig out where my solder iron was hidden, and get going. Soldering is easy thanks to your picture earfanatic, and the pins are spaced enough for an easy soldering. I did apply exactly the same parts as you did. I've chosen 1% 0.6W resistors to be on the safe side. 

 here is a higher res pict. 




 front view:




 But most important, how does it sound. I quickly tested on my speakers and more on my K701 amplified by the Heed Canamp, both connected to the line out of the HD2. 
 Mmmm, what a PRAT, it really kicks ass... It really impresses me on the K701. Now I understand the buzz about the LT1028ANC you guy make. 
 I specially like the high drums, very sharp, very fast. A lot of dynamism.
 Thanks a million


----------



## leeperry

LT1028 has been Andrea/majkel's favorite for a while, and it's definitely my favorite too...it sounds so amazing in the Firestone Spitfire(on a discrete linear regulated 24VDC PSU, no computer case nastiness, fed w/ toslink).

 The Burson is nice too, but it needs 38mA...so I can't use it in the Spitfire 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OTOH, the Burson gives a XYZ SS, the AD797B a strong Z SS but not that wide in the X axis...and LT1028 is impressive in both X and Z(the SS is very much triangular shaped IME), which makes it amazing on headphones as final buffer


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_front view:


_

 

humm, you really wanna use the same chips(same model/batch) for each channel polarity, what's up w/ the third chip on the right hand? and 797B has a higher PSRR(and a "fuller" SQ) than 797A apparently

 you could have also used high grade gold plated sockets..or solder the opamps directly to get a cleaner signal.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_EMI is produced indeed, but I wonder why you bring it to the equation of a dirty power supply. 
 Dirty environment yes, very strong EM like TX antennas (like in a cell phone transmitting some datas) , local oscillators / clocks, thermal noise, crosstalk sources on the PCB level are generating/catching noise but I do not see it as specific nor critical from the supply source perspective, thus my question._

 

When I think of the word "dirty" in relation to electronics I think of ANY additional signal that is not wanted nor intentional created. EMI can "infect" any signal including power and some common "dirt" in a PSU is high frequency noise that can be induced from EMI or RFI....just plain interference. This also depends on what type of PSU we are talking about of course.
 I see what your saying though....I guess we just have a different way of looking at things.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for PSRR, for me the simplest way of looking at it is to see how we measure it. As said before, a ripple is injected on the supply source, and measured on the output signal. The attenuation gives the PSRR, which is in some nice datasheets given as a function of the ripple frequency.
 I remember there is a detailed description on an app note from TI, will post it here if I can put my hands on it.
 EDIT: here it is http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slyt202/slyt202.pdf_

 

Again, I see what your saying but I don't consider ripple as "dirt"..LOL if you get what I mean. Thanks for the info. No sense in dragging out this topic as we just a different view point on the same subject.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, managed to get all parts, dig out where my solder iron was hidden, and get going. Soldering is easy thanks to your picture earfanatic, and the pins are spaced enough for an easy soldering. I did apply exactly the same parts as you did. I've chosen 1% 0.6W resistors to be on the safe side. 


 But most important, how does it sound. I quickly tested on my speakers and more on my K701 amplified by the Heed Canamp, both connected to the line out of the HD2. 
 Mmmm, what a PRAT, it really kicks ass... It really impresses me on the K701. Now I understand the buzz about the LT1028ANC you guy make. 
 I specially like the high drums, very sharp, very fast. A lot of dynamism.
 Thanks a million_

 

Good stuff, you got it all modded up and it gives you some good sound!
 LT has quite a few good chips, the 1028 is a great chip but can be very tricky to use in some circuits. Well unless you have the know how to mod them to accomadate the chip. I like modding soundcards, glad it all worked out for you. Are you planning any other mods for this source?


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay, managed to get all parts, dig out where my solder iron was hidden, and get going. Soldering is easy thanks to your picture earfanatic, and the pins are spaced enough for an easy soldering. I did apply exactly the same parts as you did. I've chosen 1% 0.6W resistors to be on the safe side. _

 

That's great.


----------



## ManuLM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_humm, you really wanna use the same chips(same model/batch) for each channel polarity, what's up w/ the third chip on the right hand? and 797B has a higher PSRR(and a "fuller" SQ) than 797A apparently

 you could have also used high grade gold plated sockets..or solder the opamps directly to get a cleaner signal._

 


 I actually wanted to test first on 797A since I could get them easily. Now that I'm onvinced of the combo I will order the adapter to SOIC and solder them. 
 The black sheep AD797A is a guy made in USA while all the others come from Malaysia, so it is definitely not the same batch. To be sure you get a single batch you've to order a 50pcs ribbon since packaging happens in the fab... I do not want to setup a shop 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 No plans for further modifications so far, unless you guys have other good ideas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit: I can only solder directly the I&V. Next to the final buffer there is a cap that I believe whould prevent the adapter to go deep enough in the vias.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Unless you want to start changing out some of the caps with some higher quality units.
 You may be getting to the point of diminishing returns. Have you done any mods on your STX BTW?


----------



## ManuLM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unless you want to start changing out some of the caps with some higher quality units.
 You may be getting to the point of diminishing returns. Have you done any mods on your STX BTW?_

 

I also tend to think the next steps may not be as rewarding...

 not yet played with the STX. Looking at the mods so far, I've not been convinced also, but maybe it's just lazyness (or lack of time). What's your take on this ? Specially looking at the final buffer ?


----------



## earfanatic

In my case the mod's are over for a while.
 Next step for me would be a Burson set but those cost a lot. Next Year maybe.
 (I hope my family don't listen now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also tend to think the next steps may not be as rewarding...

 not yet played with the STX. Looking at the mods so far, I've not been convinced also, but maybe it's just lazyness (or lack of time). What's your take on this ? Specially looking at the final buffer ?_

 

Yes, that is what I mean. Your going to start hitting the limits of what that card can produce. It will take alot of money to get small sonic gains.
 Many of the mods mentioned around here for the STX/ST are just generic modifications that produce better sound on many soundcards. Removing the coupling caps, improving the feedback circuit...using higher grade opamps. 
 Do you mean your single ended buffer, the AD797?
 There are other opamps I prefer more, like dual LME49710HA. 
 Almost any soundcard will have cut corners, places the engineers sacrificed some sound quality for price. They usually try and give you the best signature they can for the budget the set out by the company. Which is usually much less then what the MSRP is for the source. It only makes sense to go back and improve what they neglected and modify what you can if you're planning on keeping the source for awhile. Provided you have the skills and understanding to perform the modifications without damaging your source/card.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ManuLM* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Next to the final buffer there is a cap that I believe whould prevent the adapter to go deep enough in the vias._

 

you might as well grab a bunch of AD797BN 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 where the LT1028A keeps amazing me is its low end bass percussion...instant head nodder!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll try to score some LME49710HA soon, to see if it can compete...but I don't think it could match it SS-wise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you might as well desolder that pesky red wima cap, and put it at the back of the board.


----------



## earfanatic

I forgot one little mod to do... the RCA output's are crap. Just meassure the resistance between it's ground and the card's ground. It has a hudge difference between left and right RCA on my card. As I recently payed a fortune for RCA cables it deserves proper golden RCA connectors too.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I forgot one little mod to do... the RCA output's are crap. Just meassure the resistance between it's ground and the card's ground. It has a hudge difference between left and right RCA on my card. As I recently payed a fortune for RCA cables it deserves proper golden RCA connectors too._

 

Yes, connectors are another part that companies can skimp out on. Are you going with some high quality golden RCA jacks?


----------



## ManuLM

I wonder if the amplification stage is ground referenced (bipolar), or if we have AC coupling caps just before the RCA. If ground referenced, then I would expect the ground to be virtual and therefore not give a direct link to the ground, explaining strange impedances.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Trace out the circuit.


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, connectors are another part that companies can skimp out on. Are you going with some high quality golden RCA jacks?_

 

Not too expensive ones... There is a brand here with high quality audio cables and connectors called Kácsa audió. From they high quality line I think this is maybe compatible with the ones on the HD2:

 "24K gold plated PCB mount professional RCA jack with teflon insulation, right angle solder pins and fixing rods, with red or black color code ring and 24K gold plated front-side fixing nut."





 And looks cool too. Its € 6.73.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Thats is reasonble for quality connectors. Is this the model your going with for this card?


----------



## earfanatic

I have to check the dimensions first. If it's not suitable then I choose a simpler not L shaped one and cable it to the pcb.


----------



## leeperry

they went CNC on the burson version: Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 Sound Card

 but having 4 unshielded wires within the PC case might completely ruin the whole point of putting better plugs in the first place...I find it highly ironic how internal soundcards are always made of huge compromises..


----------



## ManuLM

what strikes me more here is that the burson are under fed voltage wise, and nothing is done about it.
 So they just mounted 3 bursons and changed the L shaped Cinch for wired connections to straight RCA, with hand wiring. They spaced a bit the RCA though


----------



## leeperry

they do change the regulators, so they're fed a dirty ±12V instead of a cleaner ±9V...but they really need ±18V to sing anyhow.


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.I find it highly ironic how internal soundcards are always made of huge compromises.._

 

You always complain about the computer. Why dont make a better shielded computer for the sound card? I know, standalone DACs are always better but those aren't my thing.

 What makes "noise" in a computer?
 -PSU
 -HDDs
 -Shielding problem

 -nothing we couldn't improve


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Burson is nice too, but it needs 38mA...so I can't use it in the Spitfire 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Leeperry: what is DIY-ing all about?


----------



## leeperry

well the linear PSU cannot output more than 200/250mA, and there's a 200mA fuse in the Spitfire...OTOH, the SMPS wallwart can output 500mA so I should be able to put a higher fuse and use the wallwart from what Firestone told me...but I really don't wanna use a SMPS anymore.

 Andrea told me that I should remove the fuse, and measure the DC current going through...and if it's <150mA it would work w/ the Burson.

 that sounds troublesome tbh, as I like the 1028AC in there anyway...and I've got my eyes on a second hand Cute Beyond + linear PSU, I really dig Firestone's stuff...great sound w/ some good opamps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 RMAA looks great as usual: http://www.firestone.idv.tw/rmaa/Cute_Beyond.htm

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What makes "noise" in a computer?
 -PSU
 -HDDs
 -Shielding problem_

 

it's a lost cause, output toslink off the computer, use a proper linear PSU. done.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You always complain about the computer. Why dont make a better shielded computer for the sound card? I know, standalone DACs are always better but those aren't my thing.

 What makes "noise" in a computer?
 -PSU
 -HDDs
 -Shielding problem

 -nothing we couldn't improve _

 

Actually, NO stand alone isn't always better. I would say it depends on the units being tested. 
 Many of the people that whine about internals of a PC really don't understand the topic. First, if the internal was so noisy as they try and suggest the PC would never start up.
 Also, if there was a bunch of noise present it would also be present on the card and we know many internal sound cards can measure better then many external DAC's. 
 You can always improve the internals, use some shielding on your card etc. That is always good but many make a mountain out of a molehill in this respect. You can use ERS paper, faraday ideas to shield to card from the "noise" but I doubt you would hear a big improvement. 
 If I have an internal card that measures better for noise and distortion then the external unit, where is the "noise" problem?
 I have tested many DAC's and many soundcards and I still say neither is inherently better as it still depends on the unit.


----------



## mnemoniak

Hi there,

 From 2x LT1364 + LM4562NA, I went to the 4x797BR and a Burson on buffer combo, it seems that I now need to mod a little more my card to feed the Burson.

 What should I buy ? Regulators, right ? Which ones ? what is the next step for me ?

 Considering I'm new in soldering could someone (leeperry?) explain me the way to go please ?

 Thanks.


----------



## leeperry

Bonjour mon ami 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you'd need to ditch the 9V LM regulators for 12V, and possibly use higher end parts...they won't really regulate anything(as they need 3V overhead to do so), but they'll feed ±12V to the Burson(and the AD797B has a pretty high PSRR anyway)...as the Burson is grossly underfed at ±9V...±12V is really a minimum, and ±18V is more advisable.

 and I guess you got an old ESI unit? you might wanna upgrade the caps too, and possibly crossflash it to use the VIA generic drivers.

 I'm sure Slash47 would be able to advise you about the right regulators to use if you'd PM him


----------



## mnemoniak

Merci !

 I will start with swapping regulators (9V for 12V).
 While reading a french forum, someone said you need to replace both 7805 and 7905
 for LM7812 and LM7912 (or, LM7810 and LM1910).

 And yes, I did got the HD2 SE but am using VIA generic drivers.


----------



## m4a1rifle

My HD2 is coming soon.
 I plan to try out the ADVANCE --- 2x OPA2134 + OPA2604 configuration, but i'm confused about the different type of the opamp with the same name, namely OPA2604AP. (with a dot) and OPA2604AP, op amp type is low noise another one is wideband, the price is different too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 which one should i get?

 I plan to buy from farnell


----------



## leeperry

you should stay away from those 2134/2604 anyway, they're cheap and sound BAD....find some proper replacements.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m4a1rifle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My HD2 is coming soon.
 I plan to try out the ADVANCE --- 2x OPA2134 + OPA2604 configuration, but i'm confused about the different type of the opamp with the same name, namely OPA2604AP. (with a dot) and OPA2604AP, op amp type is low noise another one is wideband, the price is different too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 which one should i get?

 I plan to buy from farnell_

 

There is an opamp thread where you can get some suggestions and information from people that have tested the opamps you are interested in.


----------



## m4a1rifle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_you should stay away from those 2134/2604 anyway, they're cheap and sound BAD....find some proper replacements._

 

Ya i have read your opinion that it sounds boring, i buy the LITE version so i guess this is a affordable upgrade for me, well for now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and the proper replacement i have in mind is more than twice it's price and require some sholdering...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is an opamp thread where you can get some suggestions and information from people that have tested the opamps you are interested in._

 

I have read this whole thread, they only mentioned the model name like "OPA2604" but if you could click this link to farnell you can see that there are 2 version of "OPA2604" namely OPA2604AP. (with a dot) and OPA2604AP, wideband and low noise type... both are also "OPA2604", but which one should i get? i know the "A" is the quality as in S>B>A, and "P" is package type MDIP-8, but the "." (dot), and wideband/low noise no one mentioned about it before...


----------



## leeperry

it's an error in their listing...get 2*LT1364CN8+1*OPA2132P, it'll take more effort and money to top up this combination IMHO.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m4a1rifle* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have read this whole thread, they only mentioned the model name like "OPA2604" but if you could click this link to farnell you can see that there are 2 version of "OPA2604" namely OPA2604AP. (with a dot) and OPA2604AP, wideband and low noise type... both are also "OPA2604", but which one should i get? i know the "A" is the quality as in S>B>A, and "P" is package type MDIP-8, but the "." (dot), and wideband/low noise no one mentioned about it before..._

 

If you are unsure just ask a person in the thread.


----------



## majkel

You'll get the same OPA2604AP in each case.


----------



## m4a1rifle

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *majkel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You'll get the same OPA2604AP in each case._

 

I see, but the price is different
 OPA2604AP. costs RM14.63
 OPA2604AP costs RM20.50

 I wonder if the higher price is worth the quality gained?


----------



## Space2012

Hello can get a HD2 with 3x OPA2604.

 Like to replace them for 2x LT1028 + AD797 as buffer.

 Because found great eBay items :ready to plug in!
 ad797 $34(item 220493729673) 
 and 2x LT1028 $20 (item 300405500796)

 No gain adjustment in this configuration nessasary?


----------



## Kawai_man

hey have any of you guys compared the optical out from this card to like the optical out from a macbook pro or something like the trends ud10 or teralink usb to sdif converters

 I've personally compared the optical out from a trends ud10 and a macbook pro and the ud10s optical out sounded better, I'm just wondering if hd2s optical out may sound even better


----------



## ManuLM

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Space2012* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello can get a HD2 with 3x OPA2604.

 Like to replace them for 2x LT1028 + AD797 as buffer.

 Because found great eBay items :ready to plug in!
 ad797 $34(item 220493729673) 
 and 2x LT1028 $20 (item 300405500796)

 No gain adjustment in this configuration nessasary?_

 

You will need the simple mod from ear fanatic posted a few pages ago for the LT1028, simply 4 resistors to solder, easy

 LT1028ANC8 are claimed to be better than the CS8 you plan to order.

 As for 797, version BRZ is claimed to be the best. 
 see this one
Dual to Mono Op amp module 4558 NE5532 TL072 to AD797BR - eBay (item 350336041861 end time May-02-10 05:48:20 PDT)


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Space2012* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello can get a HD2 with 3x OPA2604.

 Like to replace them for 2x LT1028 + AD797 as buffer.

 Because found great eBay items :ready to plug in!
 ad797 $34(item 220493729673) 
 and 2x LT1028 $20 (item 300405500796)

 No gain adjustment in this configuration nessasary?_

 

Actually Im not sure... The configuration what I used was 2x AD797 + LT1028 as buffer.

 Never tried backwards....

*Leeperry:* Did You try LT1028's as DAC output?

 You have to find out 2 things:
 -is the AD797 unity gain or not (I know the LT1028 is not)
 -what is the gain on the differential opamps on the DAC output

 I never looked at that one.

 To be honest, the function of these opamps is not amplifiing the signal. The DAC output is differential.
 To make the signal single ended, there is a differential amplifier stage on the DAC output, but there is a need for a buffer after this... the rest You know.
 So there is no really need of 2x gain that would make an LT1028 generally stable on either stage.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Leeperry: Did You try LT1028's as DAC output?_

 

I did, yes, they were sounding very thin and really nothing to write home about.

 IME the 1028AC needs to be at the very last stage to deliver, and tbh its incredible low end bass response is quite something


----------



## Space2012

mmm First I try out THS4032 x 3
 User Ingvarb did a nice opamp session:

AUDIOTRAK - User Community


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Space2012* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mmm First I try out THS4032 x 3
 User Ingvarb did a nice opamp session:

AUDIOTRAK - User Community_

 

Seems interesting...


----------



## leeperry

I tried 3*THS4032ID, it was very thin sounding..but I've never liked TI's opamps anyway, so YMMV.

 no competition w/ 797/1028 in my book


----------



## earfanatic

Hi there,

 Soon I'll post the better HD2 buffer gain mod.
*For those who is not up to date this mod is made to make possible to use the LT1028 opamp on the HD2 buffer stage, which is the magic ingredients to complete the most incredible sound paired with AD797BRZ-s on the DAC output.*

 The original mod can be found here: HD2 mod by Earfanatic




 I want to improve it and lower the signal to be able to leave the volume of the DAC 100% - thus keeping up the SNR ratio. With this there is no need to lower the volume on the computer to prevent distortion. The signal must be lowered because the buffer opamp has a volume limit caused by the supplied voltage to it, this causes the distortion after 78% level on the previous mod.

 This mod need SMD resistor soldering too... but if I can I will post an easyer (but more ugly) solution too.

 The aim is to lower the signal to half before the Buffer and set the buffer gain to double (2x) or a bit more thus after this any non unity gain buffer can be used safely on the Prodigy HD2.


----------



## KMT000

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi there,

 Soon I'll post the better HD2 buffer gain mod._

 

Hi. I've seen you made a serious mod on your HD2. I'm also interested to get more out of my card. I use 2*LT1364 + LM4562 ATM.

 Also seen you'd buy RCAs from kácsa. Are you from hungary? That'd be awesome.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *earfanatic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi there,

 Soon I'll post the better HD2 buffer gain mod.
*For those who is not up to date this mod is made to make possible to use the LT1028 opamp on the HD2 buffer stage, which is the magic ingredients to complete the most incredible sound paired with AD797BRZ-s on the DAC output.*

 The original mod can be found here: HD2 mod by Earfanatic




 I want to improve it and lower the signal to be able to leave the volume of the DAC 100% - thus keeping up the SNR ratio. With this there is no need to lower the volume on the computer to prevent distortion. The signal must be lowered because the buffer opamp has a volume limit caused by the supplied voltage to it, this causes the distortion after 78% level on the previous mod.

 This mod need SMD resistor soldering too... but if I can I will post an easyer (but more ugly) solution too.

 The aim is to lower the signal to half before the Buffer and set the buffer gain to double (2x) or a bit more thus after this any non unity gain buffer can be used safely on the Prodigy HD2._

 

Great stuff.


----------



## earfanatic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KMT000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi. I've seen you made a serious mod on your HD2. I'm also interested to get more out of my card. I use 2*LT1364 + LM4562 ATM.

 Also seen you'd buy RCAs from kácsa. Are you from hungary? That'd be awesome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Yes, Im from Hungary. The RCS jack i posted before wouldn't fit.
 The only compatible is a trough hole solder type not PCB mount or the one that is only available from AMB Audop Shop, same as CUI RCJ-041 but with gold-plated contacts:


----------



## ManuLM

earfanatic,
   
  the pictures of your mod no longer appear. Can you post them again ? At least without the diagram it's fairly hard to guess what the setup is.
   
  bye


----------



## earfanatic

Oh... it was on a server that was not mine.
   
  Anyway, I made a hi-res photo with a note on it:

   
  I know the resistor values were different before, but I checked the circuit again and this is right.
 Mine uses that earlier setup since then so it is okay, but this is the correct one.
 (this is why i masked the resistor colors to ensure misreading of the values for experts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## ManuLM

thanks man


----------



## razzz42

I have this Prodigy HD2 Advance DE card after listening through M-Audio 7.1 and 5.1 driving Klipsch Ultra 5.1 and 2.1 respectively.
   
  Not a headphone guy, rather feel the highs via the cheek bones and the bass blowing past the hairs on my skin although I have set of Senn HD 280 Pro and some cheap ear canal Klipsch S-2s.
   
  I gather I want AD797BNZ sitting in the socket closest to the output jacks and LT1028AC sitting in the remaining sockets? Or if the LTs are troublesome use LT1357. Do I have that arrangement correct? Not a bass freak but enjoy well placed lows.
   
  Stock card is a bit weak on bass range or maybe just weak period and the highs are quite clear along with the mid-range but not outstanding.


----------



## leeperry

I'd advise AD797BR on the DAC output and LT1363CS8 as final buffer...you can find all of them for cheap on ebay ready to use


----------



## razzz42

Thanks for that. I'll figure out what DAC output is later.......just minor details.
   
  While I'm thinking about it, Ebay seller of the HD2 DE card said at onetime he was thinking of using the card in the/a PCI X slot (5v) versus the regular PCI slot (3.3v), according to specs the card can handle the extra volts. Would a guy gain anything by running 5 volts through the card? Of course I haven't bothered to check to see if the notches would even allow it to seat in a PCI X slot.
   
  Or maybe I should have bought one of these......
http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/Audiotrak-Prodigy-HD2-Burson-Special-Edition-Soundcard_W0QQitemZ270538153653QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_ComputerComponents_SoundCards?hash=item3efd549eb5


----------



## sonda2008

Earfanatic, any updates on your mod? Are you planning to upgrade the power supply as well?


----------



## razzz42

I found some LT1363C8 and AD797BN and ordered 2ea for a total of 4 (new). Might be three weeks coming from Hong Kong. Better than coming from China proper, if you know what I mean. Hopefully they aren't knockoffs cause it would take another three weeks to return them.
   
  Meantime,  Prodigy HD2 Advance seemed a little weak with output or just not quite right. Pulled it out (and no it won't fit any other slot) noted the Op-Amp as OPA 2604ap/OPA 2134pa. Stock stuff. Under the magnifying glass OPA 2604ap wasn't seated all the way, took care of that and plugged it back in. Sounds a bit better now as I listen to Jethro Tull 'Thick as a Brick' (that is one complex arrangement) through Klipsch Promedia 2.1s. If the Hong Kong delivery pans out as the real thing with improved sounds, I just might have to breakdown and buy Prodigy 7.1 Hi-Fi to feed my Ultra 5.1s.
   
  My old M-Audio Revolution 7.1 has one DIP Op-Amp  24LC02B-323-0213, maybe it's worth trying to dress up its output since it's using Envy 1724/24HT (pre-VIA buyout).
   
  I swear the HD2 was unused and is just now burning in with my use. Is there a procedure on burn in? Anybody? Link?


----------



## moriez

Admitted, I am definitely too lazy to read everything back but I might want something less shrill than 2 x LT1364/1x LT1361. That without soldering coz im left handed times two. Any suggestions guys?


----------



## earfanatic

Quote: 





> Earfanatic, any updates on your mod? Are you planning to upgrade the power supply as well?


 
  Thanks for asking sonda2008 ! I had a lot to do lately, and couldn't manage to work on the soundcard.
  I posted some schematics in the diy HD2 forum about the circuits thats all.
   
  As soon as I can I will finish the job. I wont change the power supply though. I don't think that's a good idea, as the most high voltage the computer supplies is 12V and if You use that raw 12V from the PSU then You loose regulation.
  There is absolutely no point in using 12V regulator on 12V supply. For a Burson opamp maybe if You can get 15V supply... or more that's a solution. For me, as I don't have Bursons, The 9V supply is enough for the opamps as the output level is already 3V and most amplifiers are designed for lower voltages.


----------



## endeeinn

I have an HD2 Advance DE sound card that I purchased a year ago when I built my audio pc and was not have with the sound.  I then read in the HD2 forum that 3-THS4032’s would make a big difference which they did, however, although much improved the card lacked the dynamics of my CDP and the bass seemed to magnify sub harmonics.  After reading this thread I implemented Earfanatic’s resistors and LT1028 + AD797 and while I was working on the card I installed Cardas RCA’s in place of the stock aluminum jacks.  I must say that from the get-go the card finally produced sound that was comparable to the rest of my system.   As Earfanatic stated, I had to reduce the volume output of Foobar by 6db to match the output from my other sources.  As stated elsewhere in this thread vocals/mid-range is super, chilling really and the highs match ..with the THS4032’s cymbal crashes were…well they were “CRASHES” without definition,  with the 1028/797’s you hear the impact of the drumstick hit the cymbal and the cymbal shimmering that follows.  The bass a little “light” volume wise but is as punchy as anything else in my system and certainly much more so than the THS4032’s which seemed a slight bit muddy.  The biggest factor is the dynamics…my audio pc has never had dynamics to match  the rest of my system until the 1028/797’s in fact I have to by careful of the volumes I run because loud passages are really loud.
   
  Now for the CONS..The output frequency response  seems to hump around 500hz and maintain above that giving the “light” feeling to the bass.  I haven’t measured it as I don’t have equipment to do so and if I did room reflections etc would make the data useless.  Since I can somewhat control the frequency balance of my tri-amped system with my Marchand XM-9, I am able to flatten the output to compensate for the rise the 1028/797 give the system.  The down side is that when I go back to my CDP or DVD I have to rebalance  the system … not a real big pain but makes comparing sources a bit challenging.
   
  Bottom line I’m happy with the changes to the HD2 and the sound …as I said above I can now say the audio pc sounds as close to my CDP so that if I don’t know which is the source I can’t tell which is which.  Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and in particular Earfanatic for providing the pictures and even someone like me could follow.


----------



## leeperry

yes, I also tried THS4032 and the sound was horrid 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  you could try LT1363CS8 as final buffer, or LT1128 for that matter.


----------



## endeeinn

Would trying the LT1363CS8 or LT1128 require removing the resistors added for the LT1028?


----------



## leeperry

No idea, but I think you may wanna try all the "unity gain stable" opamps before settling on LT1028. I've had weird problems w/ this opamp on the HD2 and Firestone Spitfire(when my fridge turns on or someone turns off my bathroom neon light, I get a loud glitch), and some skilled DIY ppl have told me that this is a very very sensitive opamp that doesn't accept mediocrity...so using it on a SMPS in a computer case is begging for problems IMHO. Or at least, get someone w/ an analog oscilloscope to triple-check for oscillation. LT1028 is not your average rolling opamp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  OTOH, that's the opamp advised to be used in the PCM1794 datasheet...and yes, it's very colored but very impressive!


----------



## razzz42

AD797BN didn't work for me so back to Hong Kong they go. Was offered AD797AN and promised they would work, thinking about it. LT1363CN8 sounded like listening from one end of a long hallway. Had better luck swapping the DIP 24LC02B from my old M-Audio 7.1 Revolution card to the Prodigy HD2, took some of the low bass away but was very clear with vocals/instruments,  generally good separation. Certainly didn't hurt anything. I'm using Klipsch Promedia 2.1 speakers and positioned dead center between the satellites balanced sounds come directly out of the middle like suspended in the air, like looking for a center speaker but it's not there.
   
  At one time, loaded  M-Audio 7.1 drivers/software after a clean XP3 install and it worked fine along side the HD2 and even the ASUS (C-Media?) on-board sound but now it is not recognized for some reason so I can't check it out with the stock HD2 output DIP in it. I'll work on that later, must be the HD2 drivers interfering somehow since they both use the same Envy chips.


----------



## leeperry

you could always buy some bare AD797BR on ebay and put them on browndogs yourself, you'll be hard pressed to find a better AK4396 LPF IMHO. It just does wonders on the HD2.


----------



## razzz42

Waiting on some mail from Hong Kong with AD707BR now. In the meantime I bought a Prodigy 7.1 Hi-Fi PCI card, takes a week to get here. That should be some fun.


----------



## leeperry

the Prodigy 7.1 Hi-Fi has a 4 layers PCB like the claro halo/stx...the HD2 is only 2 layers.


----------



## razzz42

The specs on the Prodigy 7.1 Hi-Fi  seem more capable than newer cards in a $200 price range. I guess IC Ensemble naming their original chip 'Envy'  and later VIA added 'Vinyl'  seems all very appropriate. I should be fine driving just a 5.1 system where the card can use all its power at peak performance versus running 8 channels. Be interesting to see what DACs it comes with and the date of manufacture of the card.
   
  Of course in the end, I go by sound only but a good platform certainly helps. Cheaper than buying stereo receivers for mods and upgrades.
   
  I have a Xonar DX  PCI-EX it sits in the closet where it belongs.


----------



## leeperry

Well, most of the new $200 multichannel cards are based on CMI8788, and its very crappy drivers.The HiFi runs the generic VIA drivers, these will do anything you like w/o breaking a sweat.


----------



## sparehead1

Hi All,
   
  I've also picked up 2 of these cards, the B grade ones from ebay with the PSR ink stains which to my mind is a bargain of a soundcard since most people interested in these cards will be interested in swapping the op-amp's anyway:
   
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/AUDIOTRAK-PRODIGY-HD2-grades-B-Sound-Card-/110544293736?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bcf40f68
   
  I got some dual SOIC to DIP8 boards as well for the opamp rolling and am looking at some AD797BR's although they are used parts, thinking I'll get them anyway. I'll try them with LT1128CS8's and am thinking I'll just get them direct from www.linear.com
   
  I saw a picture somewhere of the caps to replace and what to replace them with, cant find it now. Is it really worth swapping them out? Replacing the connectors sounds worthwhile however.


----------



## sonda2008

Quote:  





> I saw a picture somewhere of the caps to replace and what to replace them with, cant find it now.


 
   
  Here you go mate:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/486480/audiotrak-prodigy-hd2-modifications
   
  Most people who did modify HD2 seem to swap original C5 Rubycon cap to Sanyo WG 470uF. It’s probably a good place to start.


----------



## sparehead1

thanks mate 
   
  I think i was a picture from that thread but it was on another forum. Cant for the life of me find it now. It had coloured dots on the caps and then a legend to say what types and values to put in, I *think* also with a brief run down as to what function each group of caps performed.


----------



## sonda2008

Quote: 





sparehead1 said:


> thanks mate
> 
> I think i was a picture from that thread but it was on another forum. Cant for the life of me find it now. It had coloured dots on the caps and then a legend to say what types and values to put in, I *think* also with a brief run down as to what function each group of caps performed.


 
   
  Check this very thread (page 4).


----------



## sparehead1

No wonder I thought I'd be able to find it again easy lol... well dont I feel special 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  cheers, I looked everywhere but this thread to find that post. Had it in my head it was on another forum


----------



## razzz42

Put Prodigy Hi Fi in a slot, has five 4580D OP-AMPs. Clarity and separation are superb, Highs a bit shrill, lows lack a good punch, mid-range outstanding. Dead silence at idle. Gonna have to move to a Hi Fi board to find out what OP-AMP does what. BTW it is a 4 layer board. Outputs to my Klipsch 2.1/5.1 ultra  nicely. Prodigy HD sounds at bit better due to DACs but this stock Hi-Fi is much cleaner and clearer. Even at low volume you hear everything going on.
   
  Sound check (starts @ 12 secs)......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o3eiEHmJUA&playnext_from=TL&videos=ty06Ek5gm7Y


----------



## krisno

I am using AKG K 701 directly into the Audiotrack.
   
  I bought this card because I heard the ST/STX was too bright and fatiguing. I earlier had the Xonar D1.
   
  The Audiotrack is brigther than the Xonar D1 by far. It is also less relaxed but also "slower" at the same time.
   
  Can this brightness be fixed with opamps? Now that I haven't tried the RCA output via amp yet, are they darker? since they have this 2604 opamp in the buffer output?
   
  What opamps is recommended combo to make it less shrill, a little darker, more bass?
   
  2x LT1364 + LT1361 ??
   
  or
   
  2x LT1364 + LM4562NA
   
  I want to make it more like the asus sound...... a bit darker.. it sounds  a bit thin.
   
  K


----------



## razzz42

The more experienced rollers can answer the question about what op-amps might help with sound preferences since I'm new to the game.
   
  I used optical HD output to Hi-Fi optical in to another computer since I couldn't get the two card to cooporate  in side by side slots on one computer. I could only get 2 channel sound out of the Hi-Fi card using buggy Win7 drivers but compared speakers and sounds since I was using two speaker sets being fed with the same music at the same time. HD stock sound a bit better than Hi-Fi stock to my ears. Change out op-amps whenever they arrive.
   
  Have a ver. 4 M-Audio 7.1 card along side the HD with no problems until I swapped output op-amps between the two card and XP didn't recognized the M-Audio 7.1 card any more. HD played fine. Put a stock ver. 3 M-Audio 7.1 card and XP accepted that.
   
  I'm running Klipsch Promedia 2.1 and 5.1 Ultra speaker sets (2.1 for everyday use/sounds and Ultras for music and movies) The HD card makes the 2.1s sound high end, clear and detailed, overall pretty nice. The 2.1 sub can't reproduce some of the lows I play i.e. Hotel California live and bassy recorded  music like Bjork's (Greatest Hits) Hunter and All is Full of Love. The Ultras not only handle the lows but shake the house doing it.


----------



## sparehead1

Has anyone tried swapping out the sockets? I'm going to swap mine out, I have some gold plated ones left over from some old cmoy builds.


----------



## leeperry

you'd be better off finding your fav opamps and solder them directly into the card


----------



## sparehead1

cant argue with that, it's nice to have options though. I know what I'm like, if I solder it direct to the board I'll want to try something else out, if I put a new socket in I'll never need it lol


----------



## Melorin

Hello there!
   
  I'm gonna buy a Prodigy HD2, but don't know if it's worth to buy the newest Advance DE, or it's enough to buy a grades B one from ebay, and then change the opamps.
   
  Is there any big difference between the two's?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## leeperry

the opamps on the DE version are not worth the price difference, can't tell about the caps...


----------



## krisno

Right
   
  On my Audiotrak HD2 I just installed 4x Ad797AN on adapters in the I/V spot. The OPA 2604 is at the buffer. I play using headphone out and AKG.
   
  The adapters made it so "tall" that the opamps are touching the backside of the WIFI card(of course it had to happen).
   
  The sound: I can see the "3d" sound, but it is kind of muddy, and still not as musical as the Xonar D1 even. The Xonars are really musical..... but will the mudiness improve with some burnin, does opamps really burn in?
   
  I am not totally sure if I am happy, but a dual channel solution would be cheaper and less hassle i guess.... 
   
  K


----------



## leeperry

well, the 2604 is killing the 797...besides you may wanna have bought AD797BR, as it's a higher grade than AN(and yes it's audible, especially from a computer PSU) and it'd be lower profile too.


----------



## krisno

AD797BR on browndogs?
   
  Yes - but I read that some people said they couldnt make it work.
   
  anyways..... i dont htink the opa2604 as used when you use headphone amplifier on the card? 
   
  I need those dual LT1363 to bring out the magic then, do you have one to send me leeperry? i dont find on ebay.
   
  K


----------



## krisno

can anyone confirm if the opa2604 is bypassed or not when using the headphone out on the audiotrak hd2 soundcard?


----------



## leeperry

take it off, you'll find out! the sound will be dimmer and bass shy.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Compared to bright and bass heavy?


----------



## krisno

robscix
   
  the xonar d1 is actually very musical, the audiotrak is not... how is that possible? haha
   
  how is the ST vs the D1, same musicality and darkness but with more details? Lets hope the 1363 cures it without becoming too tuby.
   
  It is kind of like with the audiotrak - more details but musicality is gone? its more intense, but not musical? i cant desribe it correctly. it annoys me. 
   
  K


----------



## leeperry

hehe, you use crappy opamps and blame the card? you can read the last pages, high grade opamps such as AD797B and LT1028AC sound fantastic on the HD2...anyway, sell it if you don't like it...problem solved 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  All the ppl I know who ditched their st/stx for the HD2 said that the sound was less harsh and much nicer to listen to...surely, they're clueless


----------



## leeperry

and I was serious, remove the buffer...you will hear what AD797 can do for ya, even though it's not the B grade.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





krisno said:


> robscix
> 
> the xonar d1 is actually very musical, the audiotrak is not... how is that possible? haha
> 
> ...


 
  ..are you asking me why the D1 is musical and the HD2 is not?
  The D1 is a better card for you if it produces "music"
  Some sources can produce sound but it is just lifeless..you might be able to help it with some mods..perhaps.


----------



## krisno

the ad797 on the audiotrak at I/V really shines at classical music. But it really adds some color that "opamp", or is it just like a DAC with proper I/V is supposed to sound? hehe
   
  It is monster 'wide' sound..... and its 'fast'. It sounds alot faster, is that called PRAT? than with the 2134..
   
  question if it really is too wide, specially whn adding a tube amp on top of this later on. 
   
  K


----------



## leeperry

well, lemme quote Slash47(who works as a professional HD2 modder):
   


> My favorite IC's:
> 
> LT1363/4/5
> Great for buffers, not so hot for something with high gain like I/V or amplification. Sometimes, but only sometimes, you feel like you're in the studio or concert hall... Can be a bit bright and anemic if it isn't supplied well. [..]
> ...


 
   
  Wider means better stereo separation in that case, and AD797B does sound better than A on the HD2...that's what ManuLM said anyway when he compared them.
   
  Majkel also spoke highly of AD797B here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-OPA-earth-OPA-moon-OPA-sun-v-2-a-397691/
   
  2134 is a very crappy opamp, as you've noticed


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





krisno said:


> the ad797 on the audiotrak at I/V really shines at classical music. But it really adds some color that "opamp", or is it just like a DAC with proper I/V is supposed to sound? hehe
> 
> It is monster 'wide' sound..... and its 'fast'. It sounds alot faster, is that called PRAT? than with the 2134..
> 
> ...


 
   
  No, color is not generally recommended but it is also a choice.
  No one opamp is a good match for everybody.  This is why it is good to experiment and find out what is good for you.
   
  Remember that an opamp can never ADD something that is NOT there just allow you to hear what is there.  Some will hide certain aspects and some will hide others, some will hide nothing.


----------



## krisno

oh - so its not like tubes which add "color" and distortion..
   
  opamps only hide some parts... i see.
   
  btw. OPA 2134 sounds TERRIFIC in Lehmann amp, so its the implementation of opamps which is the issue i think, not the opamp in general.
   
  K


----------



## leeperry

well, swap it for OPA2132P(or better 2*OPA132U on an adapter) and you'll see what you've been missing all along...OPA2134/OPA2604 are cheap, and there's a very good reason to that.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





krisno said:


> oh - so its not like tubes which add "color" and distortion..
> 
> opamps only hide some parts... i see.
> 
> ...


 

  The 2134 has been used in many designs, the circuit also plays a large part in the overall sound.  You may like it and you may not....


----------



## krisno

I just inserted the 2134 back in, replacing the ad797an on sockets..
   
  I dont know what causes this. Have I gotten fake ad797s? or is it the adapters which adds alot of nasty stuff?
   
  the difference when putting the opa2134 back in
   
  1: Its not as wide... its less messy
  2: It is really just as smooth , if not smoother
   
  the difference is not really that big...
   
   the dac is more detailed than Xonar D1 and more alive. I will install the D1 in not to long. It seems OpenAL in games really makes a difference. In games like LFd2 its difficult to pinpoint the sound with the HD2.


----------



## krisno

the Asus Xonar is back in.
   
  It is a tad warmer than the Prodigy Hd2, but in games the positional audio is alot better. I guess since it supports Open AL. (I dont use EAX, win 7).
   
  But it is also more boring since its more laid back, more flat, less alive.
   
  So there is a problem. HD2 might be very good with LT 1364 / 1361..... but it lacks OpenAL, so I might be unhappy anyways. I have to think about it.
   
  Auzentech should launch a "xonar ST" clone for half the price. It would be great. the new X-meridian coming how would thatb e?
   
  K


----------



## leeperry

OpenAL is not proprietary, you can use on anything you like..it even works on my S/PDIF DAC: http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal


> OpenAL is a cross-platform 3D audio API appropriate for use with gaming applications and many other types of audio applications


 
   
  The CMI8788(spec'ed for 500ps jitter) and the Envy24 DSP's sound radically different.
   
  the HD2 DE w/ its default opamps is ugly as sin, manufacturers need to make a 300/400% profit to make a living...it's in noone's interest to see it shipped w/ top-notch opamps.


----------



## krisno

OpenAL is not enabled in the games when using the HD2..... the sound is not positioned at all. now with the D1 back in, it is....... its not supported by audiotrak :-|
   
  The D1 is alot softer and warmer.... but also sometimes more boring. It seems there is no solution to this.


----------



## krisno

Even if the Hd2 is improved more towards the xonar with LT1364 + lt1361 ------ even then, it will be very nice with music, but it will still be totally lack of positional audio in games. which I will miss.
   
  I actually think the stock opa2134 in general was better than the AD797an that I got.... which was a terrifying experience.
   
  K


----------



## leeperry

I haven't heard the d1 but the stx was as mono as can be in Q3 for me...and that site said the exact same thing: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multimedia/display/asus-xonar-essence-stx_6.html#sect0


> If Dolby Headphone is not enabled, the Xonar Essence STX gives you no sense of direction towards the sound at all.


----------



## krisno

using LFD2 or Alien Swarm
   
  the D1 shows where in the 3d plane the sound comes from, upper right corner etc........ on the HD2 this was completly lost. The sound either came from left or right. It had no "depth" to it. Too bad really.......


----------



## leeperry

not too surprising considering you're using lousy dual opamps that kill the stereo imaging...even TI acknowledged that dual opamps are lousy in that department(and yet didn't suceed to fix the problem as two OPA1611 sound better than one OPA1612): http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/opa1612.html


> The dual version features completely independent circuitry for lowest crosstalk and freedom from interactions between channels, even when overdriven or overloaded.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





krisno said:


> using LFD2 or Alien Swarm
> 
> the D1 shows where in the 3d plane the sound comes from, upper right corner etc........ on the HD2 this was completly lost. The sound either came from left or right. It had no "depth" to it. Too bad really.......


 

 Some cards are better for gaming then others.
   
  BTW, don't listen to opamp noobs, blaming the opamps for the cards lack of imaging.  Considering the card was designed for and fitted with dual opamps, you cannot blame the opamps for the cards lack
  of game imaging.  If you have opamps questions ask in the opamp thread...there are some guys there with great knowledge and back ground in this area.


----------



## krisno

This is not a opamp issue. This is driver issue not supporting OpenAL or something else. There is complete lack of being able to tell where sounds come from using the HD2. Interestling enough its alot worse than my onboard sound which does not support OpenAL either. It must be the drivers? 
   
  and I dont think any opamp will be able to make the HD2 darker? but anways, the 3d sound part of it, and no mic in kind of kills this project.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





krisno said:


> This is not a opamp issue. This is driver issue not supporting OpenAL or something else. There is complete lack of being able to tell where sounds come from using the HD2. Interestling enough its alot worse than my onboard sound which does not support OpenAL either. It must be the drivers?
> 
> and I dont think any opamp will be able to make the HD2 darker? but anways, the 3d sound part of it, and no mic in kind of kills this project.


 

 Of course, it is not an opamp issue.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  It could be the drivers, make sure you are using the latest versions and check and see if others have complained about the same things, chances are many have had the same issues as you.
  You might be able to darken up the soundcard with an opamp but it may come at a cost of a sonic aspect you don't want to lose.


----------



## leeperry

krisno said:


> kills this project.


 
   
  I think you're expecting miracles...it's a $125 soundcard using 2 high jitter clocks/DSP, a dirty ATX PSU and lousy stock opamps. Excellent sounding gear costs a lot more than $125, I honestly wish you good luck for your journey into audiophilism...be prepared to shell out big bucks, as internal soundcards will be hard pressed to drive your K701 properly


----------



## krisno

you dont understand leepery. I tried alot of things, trust me.... expensive also. and true I never heard a computer sound as good as standalone CDP. ever....
   
  But the thing is, the D1 supporting up to 7 channels sounds better at stock than the HD2. Its more musical, just nicer in some regards.
   
  K


----------



## endeeinn

If don't purchase Opamps from the manufacturer or someplace like Digikey or Mouser you don't know what you are getting and there are lots of counterfit IC's out there especially on Ebay.  I have an HD2 Advance DE that came with 2134's/2604 and upgraded capacitors.  I used AD797BR's on browndogs and LT1028AC's on browndogs and replaced the RCA jacks with Cardas jacks.  At first listen I thought the card was a little bass shy but with great imaging, detailed highs and get mids (vocal/soloists).  I use a Marchand XM9-3way (sub,low,high) and just needed to adjust the indivdual band gain and damping controls.  Suffice it to say that after a month or more of either break it or adjusting the crossover output gain and damping (crossover point boost/gain) I have to say that I'm very happy with the card.  Previously I was very unhappy with computer sound compared to my CDP..now I can synchronize playing the CDP and a FLAC track on the computer and switch back and forth and hear very little difference.  I don't play games and don't care about games, only music and I don't think you can expect a card to do both equally well.  My music system only has one expansion card, the sound card and as a result has very little demand on the PSU and CPU which is not the case when you have a machine capable of games. You may need 2 systems one for games and another for music.  Just my experience YMMV.


----------



## razzz42

Krisno: I would disable motherboard sound in the bios setup page (during boot up) then scrub all current or previously used sound drivers out of the operating system using something as basic as the 'Driver Sweeper' program. Then install a sound card with drivers of you choice. Win7 will only allow/install basic drivers (thru the Internet using its internal update) when it's not completely happy with the hardware which is not a bad thing since Win7 handles sound differently than other Windows OSes (new/improved?). When forced it usually ends up with incomplete drivers or software.
   
  XP can be forced to load hardware (sound card) through 'add new hardware' and you can select which drivers to install. With XP, if that fails to accomplish anything then only a fresh install of XP will give you a clean slate to work with as long as any on-board sound is disabled before the install and you bypass loading them with the original motherboard drivers from disk or download.
   
  Drivers are very important whether buggy or not coming from the sound chip manufacturer or the sound card manufacturer or generically altered ones, the differences are interesting with the final sound output besides any software tweaking programs involved. Also some sound cards request that Windows have the latest sound drivers installed like for HD but you can do without it for starters.


----------



## razzz42

So far I'm using Prodigy HD2 DE stock op-amps OPA2134pa and OPA2604ap but I don't do headphones. Even when watching movies [ex. Star Wars Attack Of The Clones (esp. the opening scene)] using my Klipsch Promedia 2.1, I can put the sub on a chair with the port opening facing me about six feet away and you'll experience another dimension of the movie (true with any lows in music or movies). Now, if I just had a misting system activated by any scenes involving liquids.........


----------



## endeeinn

I agree with razzz42, you must disable the onboard sound in the bios setup.  Also I forgot to say that I'm running Vista and Foorbar2000 (latest version) and use the WASAPI output device and have it set up to read the entire FLAC file into memory before playback.  Also because the card is the HD2 Advance DE it is a Korean card that uses the Envy drivers - currently version 5.5


----------



## krisno

its allready disabled, but it wouldnt differ much at all. I install the D1 again, and its a complete different animal.
   
  gone is bright harshness and hardness to the music.
  back is REAL musicality
  some details are lost and its a little laid back compared to the HD2
  the bass is back(!), not as punchy, but deep, a bit rounded.....
   
  mic in also works for those who need it, and games sound in general alot better.
   
  the D1 is half the price, and to be honest - ASUS is selling some real working value here with great musicality.
   
  if the HD2 had the musicality of the D1, not just playing music but actually musical music, it would have been so damn great. Its a shame it doesnt, atleast not with stock opamps. But it plays alot of stuff a little better, more detailed, more alive, but not more musical or "nicer" to listen to.
   
  K


----------



## razzz42

Tried a Xonar DX 7.1 (AV 100 chip = C-Media?), it was clean alright, so clean that I couldn't hear any details. Best described as 'absent' of sounds. Reminded me more of a software based card. The components just weren't there to produce real sounds to work with.
   
With the Prodigy HD2 [edited, was D2, meant HD2), you have to get used to its clarity. The reproduction of sounds is all there, you just need decent to high end phones or speakers to hear the sounds standout.


----------



## krisno

yes the D2 is probably alot better... but the D1/x is natively warm and nice. It is a little laid back but its not bad, and very nice to listen to. What kind of destroyed my hope for the Audiotrak was that it has noe placement of sounds at all. OpenAL or anything resembling it does not seem to work at all. I really could not pinpoint any sounds at all in LFD2, but i could using D1 using exactly the same settings!
   
  D2 might be the salvation - the warm asus sound with OpenAL working.... some posts wrote that Xonar STX doesnt give any sound placement but it should since its the same chip as D2 and D1.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The STX/ST will give fine directional audio if you understand how the set the card up properly.


----------



## krisno

i dont want to use dolby digital. it changes the sound alot, everything becomes muffled etc...... does it work as good as D1 and D2?
   
  have you tried the audiotrak robscix?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Yes, there is not many cards I have not tested.
  Dolby Digital? Do you mean Dolby Digital live, or Dolby headphone?
   
  Dolby Headphones is surround virtualization for headphones so if you want surround imaging in your games on headphones you are sort of stuck with it.


----------



## razzz42

Find an old M-Audio Revolution 5.1 preferably ver. 4 sound card, only because they are low in price when you do find one, works on XP, partial working software load on Win7. Should satisfy your need for speaker lows. Is actually very clear and distinct with background sounds. Highs can be found when working with its software but then the lows suffer. Same Envy/Vinyl chip line as the Prodigies card. Other M-Audio software can be use but I never tried it.


----------



## krisno

i meant dolby headphone. i dont like it


----------



## razzz42

Well arranged and good FLAC listening music, Steely Dan old stuff....Royal Scam,  Do It Again,  Haitian Divorce, Only A Fool Would Say That, Major Dude, Bad Sneakers, Kid Charlemagne.....many more.


----------



## krisno

razzz42 what is your favorite audiotrak hd2 opamp config?
   
  I need to maybe wait for Auzentech "Xonar ST" clone, same type of outputs etc..... or hope that OpenAL gets incorporated in Via drivers for Audtiotrack which I dont think will happen. Sound in game really is disasterous. Its almost like mono, not even stereo... hehe. impossible to hear where anything comes from. my onboard positions sound better.
   
  K


----------



## razzz42

The stock Prodigy HD2 'Advance DE' OPA2134PA(s) sound good to me while I wait for some 8pin conversion boards for a few AD797BNZ I bought recently. I defer to the ones that are well established in rolling as I am new to the op-amps game, hard to image a huge step up in sound but I'm willing to try it since the older music was created with lesser op-amps at the time i.e. what electronic instruments used to convert sound and how it was delivered on to mastering tapes. Basic yes but quite realistic even going as far back as vacuum tubes amps.
   
  Have a Prodigy 7.1 Hi-Fi card that is in need of an op-amp upgrade since the HD2 sounds better. All sound cards (in my price range at least) seem to have driver/software issues. Win7 is handling the HD2 and VIA reference drivers better than XP. Can hear a slight difference in Foobar output switching between Primary and Envy 24 Family in file>preferences>playback>output menu through my Klipsch 2.1 speakers. Have Senn 280 headphones that do okay along with some inexpensive ear-canal phones but enjoy speakers and subs more.
   
  Have a good mind to load Win98 and see how the sound cards do before so called 'legacy.' Maybe the software might even function correctly. Ever since they squashed the SoundStorm onboard chip, it has been an uphill battle to get decent sound at a fair price. Still amazed by the Envy/Vinyl chip.
   
  Don't game, can't sing or play instruments just enjoy good sounds.


----------



## krisno

ROBSCIX 
   
  Does the ST have the inherent musicality of the D1? Is it the "same" type of sound? 
   
  K


----------



## razzz42

Not much luck with op-amps. Ordered from three sources: China, Digi-Key and diystompboxes.com. China just sends me nonfunctional knockoffs which I will let Ebay deal with, DK first sent LT 1763 when I ordered 797BNZ then sent one bad 797 the second time around.
  Had BrownDog send SO8<DIP8  adapters. (I recently installed an upgrade kit for my Klipsch Ultra sub panel to resolve the heat created problems. A daughter board gets the most attention with resistor replacements, I thought that was tiny enough work for me since I only solder out of necessity as I just do the recommended replacements without testing anything.) I can barely see closeup as it is, with this BD adapter it's mostly by feel and check it with a magnifying glass afterward. 25watt iron is way to hot and any excess solder I wick away.
  Still it works out fine.
   
  Only one out of two 797 worked so I'll see if DK blames it on me or not.
   






diystompboxes.com sent DIP8 sockets in case I want to convert inplace to socket and (5) RC4558P op-amps (total less than 10 bucks). RCs sound decent on the HD2, pronounced lows, echoes and cymbals more defined. voice range missing a bit, volume output slightly lower than stock and lacking the warmth of stock OP2134PA. Might try them in the Prodigy 7.1 Hi-Fi as stock seems muddy to me.
   
  Employed the jumpers for 200% gain output for headphones then plugged the Klipsch 2.1s into the hole, they didn't seem bothered at all. The Aux headphone plugin helps a lot on the 2.1 control pod with adjusting phones volume. Extra circuitry/travel doesn't seem to effect sound quality besides I think it's a BASH chip doing amplification(?). Won't bypass the op-amp if you are plugged into the headphone jack (used as speakers out, two phono jacks empty).
   
  RC4558P described as 'raw' in writeups during its long history. Listened to Deep Purple's 'Child in Time (1970)' studio 10:18 minute version @360kbps CBR taken off the web somewhere. Classic guitar solo by Blackmore. Cymbal taps @ 6 minutes very clear.  The Leslie effect strong while backing up voice towards the end esp.noticeable with headphones as the organ rotates  in and out, fast and slow, left/right and whatever the mix master adds. Typical of 60's and 70's rock music.


----------



## sparehead1

Which ebayer did you buy the 797's off?


----------



## razzz42

Off Ebay, I bought (2) 797BRZ from Sisitronic aka Wan Sai Ho located in Hong Kong (also some LTs), both of them didn't have the factory markings like the ones from Digi-Key.


----------



## razzz42

CD


----------



## Shanahan

PM 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote:


> Yes, Im from Hungary. The RCS jack i posted before wouldn't fit.
> The only compatible is a trough hole solder type not PCB mount or the one that is only available from AMB Audop Shop, same as CUI RCJ-041 but with gold-plated contacts:


----------



## krisno

I have 4x AD797AN to sell you...
   
  GUYS - anyone who have tried both. The HD2 vs Xonar ST - just stock - which is the brightest card(and harshest?)?.... is the Xonar ST same sound family as D1 and D2, therefore darker, or is it actually brighter or just as bright sounding than HD2??
   
  anyone can tell?


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





> [size=x-small]The manufacturer suggested that cables did not require much break-in as a consequence of the cable design. While I did not audition them extensively in their unbroken state, I did listen to them briefly. Based upon my brief exposure to the cables in their "raw" state, I surmised that the break-in period did not significantly alter tonality. I did notice an increase in clarity after 336 hours of a continuous signal being passed through the interconnect, 168 hours of current passed through the power cords and 168 hours of a continuous signal passed through the speaker cable. _Note_: I interface speaker cable in reverse phase, i.e., at the speakers, the red connector is connected to the black terminal and the black connector is connected to the red terminal. I prefer the sound in this configuration.[/size]


 
Link


----------



## cloudcws

Anyone knows the effect of LT1361+LM49720+LT1358?


----------



## razzz42

Haven't tried the above op-amps.
   
  Installed (2) LM4562NA in the HD2 because they are cheap drop in no problem replacements and tried and true.
  Good overall sound throughout all the ranges. Maybe lacking a bit of staging but sounds like what your above average home stereo unit would put out.
  Not as bright (highs) as the stock OPA2134PA, which I like a lot and installed (4) in my Prodigy 7.1 HI-Fi which finally decided to cooperate with Win7, Q is working even the psycho setting for affects works.
  Win7 allows it use 192 kHz and the speaker arrangement of your choice, 5.1 Ultra Klipsch in my case. Rumble setting works but the sub is a scary monster as it is.
  Been enjoying Fleetwood Mac from FLAC.  More well done studio work.  A long music history with plenty to choose from.  'Everywhere' (28mb FLAC) is simple but effective.
  Klipsch 2.1 and HD2 continue to please for everyday use.
   
  Spent enough on op-amps, going to enjoy them for a while now.


----------



## leeperry

OPA2134/LM4562NA act as nasty bottlenecks between you and your music.


----------



## hubsand

Feel like I'm late at the party here, but have been casting about for mod recipes, though tempted by this off-the-shelf number: anyone tried it?

   
  They've got the RCAs and discrete op-amps sorted, plus a sprinkling of cap changes . . .


----------



## ROBSCIX

The actual builder of that unit was/is a member here.  I cannot remember his name, maybe Lee will have it.  IIRC, the unit has modified power circuitry and using Burson discrete opamps.


----------



## razzz42

I linked to that a while back, it was at a .UK site.
   
  Appears no DACs are better as the pass through is unadulterated and final sound relies on the original recording and of course the sound processor and speakers/headphones. So bad recording in, bad sound out. Well done recording in and good sound out. So,  at times you may not like what you hear.
   
  Since I don't know what I'm doing, I tried to find some dummy DACs to replace the stock OPA2134PA on my Prodigy HD2 Advancesd DE and the 3 to 5 jumping of the DIP sockets didn't inspire me to try it so I used (2 ) OPA2604AP, moved  one from the output DIP socket on the card plus I recently purchased another for my Prodigy 7.1 Hi-Fi card. Well, XP never likes it when I roll in with a strange amp so it started the reboot blue screen death loop. I moved on to the Win7 hard drive without the card to disable any drivers and upon that boot up Win7 scanned and repair the XP drive. I ignored XP and installed the card with the (2) 2604s to see how Win7 would handle it. Got the intro music at start up. Foobar lists (3) Output Devices as 'Primary Sound Driver' along with 'Speakers (2-Eny24 Family Audio Controllers WDM)' and Digital Audio.
   
  Used Foobar, Nero 8, Win7-Media Player (sounds the best in my opinion, believe it or not, when it has the plug-in/codec for what you are playing).
   
  Everything sounds 'true' now. No accented highs and/or lows. No missing range of sounds. Echoes echo. Bass occupies its own area like on a stage and the stage itself is good. The two drivers Win7 found gives you a bit of added bass and presence or a fuller stage as you switch between the two in Foobar.
   
  You'll make your own judgments. I wonder if anyone will tell me what the OPA2604s are doing  to the sound, if anything?  I only know what I hear.
   
  Trying to get the Prince of Persia Sands Of Time to play on Win7 Media Player didn't work for me as it's AC3 5.1, I'm guessing. But I had ripped the sound track to FLAC and was playing the closing song during the credits, written and sung by 7 time Grammy Awards winner Alanis Morissette. You will get lost in her voice and forget there is a full _orchestra accompanying her. She certainly doesn't need any backup singers. It's a Disney movie so they try to do thing right all around. The movie is more fun with a 5.1 speaker system._


----------



## leeperry

the stock opamps on the DE are junk...OPA2604/2134 are really not high grade. Put 4*AD797BR and 2*LT1363(or better 2*LT1028AC + resistors to get it stable), and it'll make for a MAJOR leap ahead....but the deal breaker on the HD2 is the crappy DSP/clocking, the DSP is given for 500ps(just like CMI8788) and the clocks are high jitter.


----------



## endeeinn

Quote: 





> I ignored XP and installed the card with the (2) 2604s to see how Win7 would handle it. Got the intro music at start up.


 
  What do you have in the 3rd position or did you leave it empty?
   
   
  Quote: 





> Put 4*AD797BR and 2*LT1363(or better 2*LT1028AC + resistors to get it stable), and it'll make for a MAJOR leap ahead


 
   
  I have the 4*AD797BR + 2*LT1028AC + resistors and am happy with them but since I've never tried all 2604's and have them laying around I may just do that for kicks to see what it sounds like.


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





endeeinn said:


> What do you have in the 3rd position or did you leave it empty?
> 
> 
> 
> I have the 4*AD797BR + 2*LT1028AC + resistors and am happy with them but since I've never tried all 2604's and have them laying around I may just do that for kicks to see what it sounds like.


 
  Yes third socket is empty only because I don't have enough amps to go around but the test was only for the type of sound I'd get on a pass through attempt. I'm more interested in hearing the original recording as was.
   
  You'll be good for a opinion if you try it since you know what seems to be the preferred set up and how it sounds already.
   
  What the 2604s really do except amplify with some filtering and how much they affect the original sound stream, I have no idea. Sounds different than stock for sure and better to my ears. Probably a matter of preference.


----------



## thangcoo

Quote: 





hubsand said:


> Feel like I'm late at the party here, but have been casting about for mod recipes, though tempted by this off-the-shelf number: anyone tried it?
> 
> 
> They've got the RCAs and discrete op-amps sorted, plus a sprinkling of cap changes . . .
> ...


----------



## endeeinn

Well since my HD2 had the resistors installed for the LT1028AC to stabilize it and I didn't want to have to remove them it was easy to pull 1028's and AD797BR's and drop in two 2604's.  The 2604AP's I have are Burr Brown's and haven't been used for about 10years & obtained from Mouser, not eBay so I'm convinced they are as good as 2604's get.  With the two 2604's and the 3rd position empty the card didn't sound too hateful but it was sort of dull.  Everything seems to either come from the left or the right with nothing in between.  The mids didn't seem to be alive at all.  The sound was not distorted, not bad but not exciting either.  Before pulling the 2604's I decided to drop in the LT1028's since I had nothing to lose and all of a sudden the music became more alive.  The mids were back.  The sound stage seems wider but things still seemed to come from only the right or the left with nothing in the middle...much better but no cigar.  Once I pulled the 2604's and put the 797's back in the imaging returned, things were clearly left or right but also left center, center, and right center.  I didn't do extensive listening but I did use the Jazz CD's that I always use for comparison purposes; a jazz trio & quartet, jazz vocals, and big band jazz--all gave me the same impressions as stated above.  In the past I've said the 1028/797 seems 'light'--actually it really is more crisp and less boomy but very very present.  As you said it may all boil down to personal taste.  YMMV


----------



## leeperry

downgrades are always painful.


----------



## razzz42

Thanks for that endeeinn,  your ears are good.
   
  Still think'in DACs just pre color the original sound stream for the listener.
   
  Not true jazz but close newer/redone Steely Dan in flac Aja, Nightfly, IGY, Mary Shut the Garden Door.
   
  Remember the HD2 is decoding 5.1 even though there are only stereo plugins. Taking the digital out to a surround sound receiver/speakers could be fun.


----------



## sonda2008

Quote: 





earfanatic said:


> Oh... it was on a server that was not mine.
> 
> Anyway, I made a hi-res photo with a note on it:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Would 470Ω resistor be OK for this mod or should I look for something more exotic?
   
  http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=341657
   


Spoiler




 Universal resistor with a superb specification
 Can be used as a superior replacement wherever carbon film 1/4W, 1/3W or 1/2W are specified since it''s size is the same as 1/4W types
 Can be run continuously at 0.6W with ambient temperatures up to 70°, thanks to the highly even thermal characteristics of the ceramic substrate
 Superior replacement to most metal oxide and thick film resistors due to its very tight tolerance, ±1%, and its low temperature coefficient, only 50ppm
 Working voltage max: 250V
 Tolerance: 1%
 Power rating: 0
 6W at 70°C
 Temperature coefficient: 50ppm/°C
 Noise level: Typically 0.01 V/V
 Dimensions of body: 6
 5 (l) x 2
 5(dia)mm


----------



## razzz42

On the mod, I'd stick with whatever has been proven.
   
  I put in (2) LT1364CN8, third seat empty, nice sound across the lows which seem to override the highs. Certainly didn't hurt anything but I put back (2) OPA2604AP and used (1) LT1364. Again, I could live with it, I'll listen to that combo for awhile. 'Sara' by Fleetwood Mac where Sara was the name used to check in at a rehab has a very warm and full sound to it. Drums are moved in and out during the song.
   
  BTW, in Win7 I loaded K-Lite basic Standard and Media Player pickup the codecs for Flac and AC3 and I'm sure others but that's what I needed. I'm reading MAC is the way to go for superior sound, put that on my things to do list.


----------



## cloudcws

I am currently using Aego 2 to pair with HD 2.
  Any way to make it sound more warm?
  It's like kinda bright to me.
  ANy suggestion of opamp?


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





cloudcws said:


> I am currently using Aego 2 to pair with HD 2.
> Any way to make it sound more warm?
> It's like kinda bright to me.
> ANy suggestion of opamp?


 
  You need to look at the existing op-amps and say what they are first.


----------



## endeeinn

Quote: 





> Would 470Ω resistor be OK for this mod or should I look for something more exotic?


 
  The mod calls for 1% 460 ohms - 460+/1 1%=455.4 to 464.6 ohms.  The only common size I could get hold of was 461 so they worked no problem.  I don't know how sensitive the application is but the 1028 is touchy so I stick with 455-465 ohms.  The only suggestion I can give you is that if all you can get are 470 ohms get what you can and measure each one.  470 1% resistors on the -1% range are 465.3 ohms or you could get a hand full of 470 5% resistors and measure them to see if you can come up with 4 within within the 455 to 465 range. Try a few different sources or brands as each lot will tend to run in a narrow range.


----------



## cloudcws

Quote: 





razzz42 said:


> You need to look at the existing op-amps and say what they are first.


 
  It should be the basic one.NE 3552.


----------



## sonda2008

Quote: 





endeeinn said:


> The mod calls for 1% 460 ohms - 460+/1 1%=455.4 to 464.6 ohms.  The only common size I could get hold of was 461 so they worked no problem.  I don't know how sensitive the application is but the 1028 is touchy so I stick with 455-465 ohms.  The only suggestion I can give you is that if all you can get are 470 ohms get what you can and measure each one.  470 1% resistors on the -1% range are 465.3 ohms or you could get a hand full of 470 5% resistors and measure them to see if you can come up with 4 within within the 455 to 465 range. Try a few different sources or brands as each lot will tend to run in a narrow range.


 
   
   
  Thanks endeeinn. Which one would you recommend to try the metal film, carbon film or the metal oxide ones?


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





cloudcws said:


> It should be the basic one.NE 3552.


 
  Not familiar with that one, of course I'm not familiar with a lot of amps being a new comer.
  Anyway try (2) OPA2604AP and (1) LM4562NA (Sorry) I meant LT1364CN8. Should be an upgrade for you and maybe less than $20 to find out and they are drop in replacements - 8DIP. You can run all three or just the (2).


----------



## endeeinn

Quote: 





> Which one would you recommend to try the metal film, carbon film or the metal oxide ones?


 
  I used Vishay metal film 1/4 watt but I'm not sure it would make a difference the way they are used on the card.  To be honest, I've read a lot about various brands/types of resistors that sound better or worse but as of yet I've not heard any difference but I do try to use what the consensus has recommended because I don't think it can hurt.  As with everything else everyone has an opinion...


----------



## Shanahan

pls help!
  what is this punctually?


----------



## sonda2008

It's not very punctual answer, but they both seem to be ceramic capacitors. Maybe DMM would be helpful to answer your question.
   
  Quote:


shanahan said:


> pls help!
> what is this punctually?


----------



## Shanahan

*DMM = Digital MultiMeter? *
  
  Quote: 





sonda2008 said:


>





> It's not very punctual answer, but they both seem to be ceramic capacitors. Maybe DMM would be helpful to answer your question.


----------



## sonda2008

Yes, preferably a good one


----------



## earfanatic

Hello sonda2008 and Everyone,
  I haven't been here for a while...
   
  For the resistors in the gain mod You can use 460Ω too, this would still set the gain to about 2.027x. Actually You can use any resistors between 400Ω - 470Ω but choose no higher. With the 400Ω You still set the gain to 2.256x. This is needed to stabilize the LT1028 but the more gain causes the opamps to output a level which is not possible from it's power source. To make it clear, it will distort if You still leave the volume control of Your favorite media player on 100%. On the computer You have to set the volume to about 70% (78 on mine tested with scope), above this there is clipping.
   
  So if You choose lower value resistors, the gain will be more. You have to set the volume lower to prevent clipping. Basically You can loose sound quality if the source is set to low, and You amplify after it, so this is why I choosed the resistor value so close to the technically needed 2x.
 I'm currently listening to my system, still with the original mod (didn't have the time to correct my resistor values), and it is perfect.  If I have the time I will change my resistors, to the 470Ω 1% ones.
   
  You don't have to select the resistors so carefully because it is parallel with an 1% SMT resistor, and You don't know it's exact value either. Buying an 1% resistor gives You enough perfection. I bought cheap ones. Don't be fancy.

  
  Quote: 





sonda2008 said:


> Would 470Ω resistor be OK for this mod or should I look for something more exotic?


----------



## ManuLM

general questions, where do you get the drivers from ?
  I recently upgraded my computer to windows seven, and the pilots from Via reject my hardware ???
   
  http://www.viaarena.com/Driver/Envy24_Family_DriverV540a.zip


----------



## earfanatic

If You use linux, then it is already supported. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



(it is always a bad choice imo to switch to newer windows)


----------



## sonda2008

Good man yourself! Thank you for clarification. Much obliged. Feel free to post any updates you made on your HD2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  Quote: 





earfanatic said:


> Hello sonda2008 and Everyone,
> I haven't been here for a while...
> 
> For the resistors in the gain mod You can use 460Ω too, this would still set the gain to about 2.027x. Actually You can use any resistors between 400Ω - 470Ω but choose no higher. With the 400Ω You still set the gain to 2.256x. This is needed to stabilize the LT1028 but the more gain causes the opamps to output a level which is not possible from it's power source. To make it clear, it will distort if You still leave the volume control of Your favorite media player on 100%. On the computer You have to set the volume to about 70% (78 on mine tested with scope), above this there is clipping.
> ...


----------



## leeperry

manulm said:


> where do you get the drivers from ?
> I recently upgraded my computer to windows seven, and the pilots from Via reject my hardware ???
> 
> http://www.viaarena.com/Driver/Envy24_Family_DriverV540a.zip


 

 the latests seem to be 5.50A: http://www.audiotrak.co.kr/kr/customer/Dprodigyhd2.php


----------



## sonda2008

Do they fix windows master volume problem?
   
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> the latests seem to be 5.50A: http://www.audiotrak.co.kr/kr/customer/Dprodigyhd2.php


----------



## leeperry

sonda2008 said:


> Do they fix windows master volume problem?


 

 No idea....I've got a contact at VIA's tech.support, in case you'd wanna try to get this fixed.


----------



## sonda2008

Check the control panel of the old drivers and compare to the latest one. The latest one just looks cheap. Only a fraction of the old features remained. This is a huge and I will repeat it HUGE  step backwards. Most of the old stuff never worked for me anyway but at least it was there! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Master volume control was the most important feature to me and they took it as well. Why? No idea. Frankly speaking talking to ppl responsible for those new drivers is simply a waste of time...
   
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> and I can't stress enough how cool the drivers look!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## leeperry

sonda2008 said:


> Check the control panel of the old drivers and compare to the latest one. The latest one just looks cheap. Only a fraction of the old features remained. This is a huge and I will repeat it HUGE  step backwards. Most of the old stuff never worked for me anyway but at least it was there!
> Frankly speaking talking to ppl responsible for those new drivers is simply a waste of time...


 
   
  Yep, soundcard drivers are always a crapshoot...except if you buy a high-end RME/Lynx, then you get proper tech support and timely bugfixes..RME has a VERY responsive dev team.
   
  the Audiotrak story is complicated...the original drivers were from ESI and using their EWDM technlogy, but Gyrocom has bought Audiotrak from them and used a firmware to be compatible w/ the generic VIA drivers. The ESI drivers are as buggy as can get and their tech.support inexistent.
   
  VIA are clueless when it comes to anything else than DS, they've just built on the "IC Ensemble" legacy(from whom they bought the Envy DSP). There's a nasty bug w/ KS on XP, I've tried to explain it 10 times to their tech.support to no available.
   
  The ultimate solution to computer audio is drivers-free chips, so you won't depend on some clueless software engineers.


----------



## sonda2008

Thank God they did not ruin the card and it still sounds nice


----------



## leeperry

It's an ESI design I think, ESI gear "works"..but its PCB only has 2 layers(4 layers on the Prodigy 7.1 HiFi and Asus Essence) and carries no ground isolation whatsoever(unlike the Asus Essence/Auzen Bravura)...also they boast about 120dB, but that's the DAC chip SNR, not the card's. And it's using two high jitter clocks, plus its DSP is rated for 500ps jitter.
   
  But yes, the B-stock is so cheap that it's a good deal.


----------



## razzz42

Thanks for that link Lee to the newer HD2 drivers which appears to be an update patch when installing. Put them on XP and Win7. Hard to sound test and compare them to the 'F' driver but there is a difference to my ear. With Win7 more staging, results in the more well defined bass and vocals. After that maybe more clarity (clearness) overall. On XP not so much difference.
   
  I always thought Mr. Bill's Windows was the problem. Not to many topics on Linux or Apple problems.
   
  I read some kid reporting on his new AMD 32/64 chip and new supporting Asus motherboard when they first came out. Remember AMD took the memory controller off the motherboard and built it into the CPU leaving an empty spot on the board. The kid loaded, of all things, Windows 95 on his new 64 bit capable computer system. He said he was on day 45 without a reboot during constant heavy use. This told me Intel memory chips and Windows memory controllers sucked (BSODs).
   
  So I have no doubt Window's interfaces with drivers being the main culprit. They wrote the specs to be adhered to and to work with.
   
  Anyway, been enjoying Linda Ronstadt. Her voice is a dream. Anything from Mexican folk music to opera to jazz to choir and swing era classics besides light rock and country western. A student of the music she sings and well arranged using high quality studio work.
   
  Setting Window's wave control volume to 70% seems to be a standard setting to prevent clipping.


----------



## leeperry

70% volume? depends on what you're playing, but this link seems to be saying that bit-perfect isn't really an option: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/334385-intersample-peaks.html
   
  And yes, I've been using a drivers-free USB transport for the past few months...my box has never been this stable, impressive!
   
  I read that m$ decided to get Creative out of the windows kernel since Vista because of the gigantic number of crash reports due to their drivers.
   
  That's too bad you've been unlucky w/ opamps, because they can make up for a very impressive improvement! you really need to hear 4*AD797BRZ as LPF and LT1363/Burson V2 as final buffer.


----------



## razzz42

With setting the Window's Wav out volume to 70% was a reference to my speakers because Klipsch recommends this setting for their Promedia 2.1 speaker system, I take it so the amplifier can do its job correctly.
   
  797 is still on my lists of things to do. Sounds have actually been improving step by step as I have been rolling along. Op-amps and drivers.


----------



## leeperry

you really wanna leave the WAV slider in the windows mixer at 100%, play through a bit-perfect audio renderer(KS/ASIO/ASIO4ALL/WASAPI Exclusive) and use the windows master volume, as it's hardware accelerated and not resampled by windows.


----------



## ManuLM

Klipsch PC speaker seem to have a max input swing which is quite low.
  I also face some clipping problems above 60% on one of my PCs using Klipsch iFi (driven by Essence STX).
  Can't test the headset, as it would make me deaf... simply too,loud
   
  My HD2 is always set to 100% as line out, no clipping, my amp can take it


----------



## razzz42

Sometimes I think I live in a cave, looked up a Klipsch iFi...what a nice system you have. 8" sub driver with a slotted enclosure instead of a round port and nice midrange drivers and the horns. Specs are really nice. Ears may not hear all the range but the rest of your body certainly can feel it.
   
  SN ratio make the satellites over driven by the amp at low listening levels but specs allow higher listening levels with no distortions, yes, until you can't stand it. Bass must really thump. I'd be jealous but I have the 5.1 Ultras.


----------



## ManuLM

iFi has proved to be an excellent system indeed, all accross the frequency range.
   
  Bass can be as full as you want, also depending on how you place the sub.
  My settings are quite shy though, not like boom all the time, just bass kick when there is actually one in the track itself...
   
  Honestly the most noticeable aspect to me is not the bass, but the mids, which are very sharp. the satellites do a great job.
   
  iFi is now outdated completely and no longer sold. I got one of the last units, on sale as demo unit in a shop.


----------



## hizjoe

I've been reading this thread and am thinking about upgrading my prodigy hd2 advance de with [size=9pt]AD797[/size]'s at the I/V. Could anybody perhaps predict how this would sound with dual LME49710 at the buffer? I don't want to mod the card by soldering, so the 1028's aren't an option though I have a bright system.
   
  Right now I'm on XP still. Due to the Gyrocom firmware and driver I can't use asio however, so i'm stuck on kernel streaming. (i have downgraded to the earlier firmware, yet i hate the glitches and indeed leeperry, the kernell streaming bug with 24/96 files is dibilitating). Would upgrading to W7 allow me to use wasapi in exclusive mode, or is it restricted to shared mode? Thanks!


----------



## barkas88

Does anybody know how I could insert a good quality volume control in the analog section of this card?  Is this possible?  What would be required?
  TIA


----------



## leeperry

the volume attenuation is hardware accelerated on the HD2.


----------



## barkas88

Could you elaborate just a bit so I could understand what that means and how I could incert a physical volume knob in this thing
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




? 
  Other Q; Do you know if the clock can be changed on this card? You said it is all jittery, but what could be done?  TIA


----------



## leeperry

the volume attenuation is hardware accelerated, meaning that it's not resampled by windows...the volume is lowered in either the DSP or the DAC.
   
  a physical knob would only ruin the SQ, as a good quality knob costs more than the card itself.
   
  Its DSP is rated at 500ps, there's no point in investing money on pimping this card...its PCB has only 2 layers and is hardly shielded.


----------



## Bl4cK

I got my B-Grade Prodig HD2 a week ago and now I'm trying to find the right (opamp) sound.
   
  The sound of the stock NE5532N was pretty boring imho so first I tried switching to the ADVANCE configuration with the 2xOPA2134 and OPA2604AP. This wasn't the optimum as well. The highs were very harsh with my Beyerdynamik DT880 and the overall sound wasn't very enjoyable.
   
  Temporary I switched to 2xLT1364 I had ordered a while ago for my headphone amp and OPA2134 as the buffer. Whith this config I notice an improvement over the last combinations with a wider soundstage. But it still doesn't sound optimal.
   
  Could someone recommend a good config with natural sound and a big soundstage? I'd prefer just to switch for different opamps without soldering or any other invasive stuff.
   
  And is the 3rd opamp (buffer) involved when I listen over the headphone out?


----------



## joe_cool

Quote: 





bl4ck said:


> I got my B-Grade Prodig HD2 a week ago and now I'm trying to find the right (opamp) sound.
> 
> And is the 3rd opamp (buffer) involved when I listen over the headphone out?


 

 Yes, the 3rd opamp is a (dual) differential-to-single-ended converter and is in the signal path for all analog outputs.
   
  I bought the B-grade card from Gyrocom and replaced all 3 opamps with LME49860NA chips (I know, some people don't like this sound). 
   
  After having problems with the VIA drivers, including the (included) version 550A, I flashed the ROM to EWDM and use the Prodigy driver version 1.08 with good results. I don't care about the Q-sound stuff I just want the ASIO to work. Also works on Windows 7 with ASAPI. Oh, and in Linux ALSA uses the ICE1724 module without problem.


----------



## Bl4cK

Quote: 





joe_cool said:


> I bought the B-grade card from Gyrocom and replaced all 3 opamps with LME49860NA chips (I know, some people don't like this sound).


 

 What's the sound like with those chips? You're listening with the K701, right?
   
  I didn't like the VIA drivers as well because of the missing automatic sample rate detection. So flashing the card for the ESI drivers was the first thing I did.
   
  Now I'm waiting for the LT1361 to get shipped to try the 2xLT1364+ 1xLT1361 config. In the meantime I'm listening with 2xLT1364 and OPA2134 which isn't bad at all.


----------



## razzz42

Well, I took the PRODIGY 5.1 LTM new driver from audiotrack.com Version.5.60a - 2010.08.11 and loaded it on XP and W7 and Windows did take it from driver version xxx.3655 (5.50a) to xxx3656 (5.60a) or dates from 12.04.09 to 6.30.10 as an update process for the Prodigy HD2 panel. (Hope I got those numbers right, cause I don't want to go back and reload the old drivers)
   
  After redoing a few settings in the control panel and foobar v1.03, sound has better clarity and separation all around. Setting to primary driver in Foobar still seems to me to give a bit more bass and change the staging enough for me to notice versus setting to the WDM driver.
   
  I think it's a improvement either way.
   
  Not using phones but a Klipsch Promedia 2.1 sub driving two RSX-4 satellites (4" drivers and 1" horns). The highs are unreal and sub fills in for the lows well enough. 92Hz-20kHz range claim, only 90db.
   
  With those op-amps, keep changing them around to suit your tastes. Hopefully you bought 2 of each so you can fill the two sockets or use only one as the output. Who knows maybe 3 alike might do it for you, just kidding I think.
   
  Was listening to Bob Dylan from a live album recorded at Royal Albert Hall, London, _England_, 27 May 1966 singing Desolation Row for over 11 minutes. I think his voice degrades my speakers.


----------



## joe_cool

Well it sounds like the 5532 but way better resolution. I don't like the sound of opa2134 but opa604 is ok. opa627 and opa2107 is too soft. AD8620 is somewhat better but LM4562, LME49720 and LME49860 is best for me.
  
  Quote: 





bl4ck said:


> What's the sound like with those chips? You're listening with the K701, right?


----------



## krisno

Can you use the PRODIGY 5.1 LTM driver on the Audiotrak Prodigy 2 Advance DE? Is there no place on the VIA site we can download directly?
   
  I am using the Advance HD2 now with 2x LT1364 + LT 1361. It has a nice warm sound really. I am not sure how good the bass is though. Anyways, it feels kind of like listening to a tube. A bit "distant" and a bit "narrow".
   
  One told me to bypass the first stage (I/V) opamps(lt1364) and put a LM6172 in the buffer. Only that.
   
  Has anyone tried LM6172 opamps with Audiotrak card? Has anyone tried bypassing the I/V opamps. How does it sound? Is it worth a shot? I really dont want the card to become harsh again, as it was with stock opamps. It sounded really terrible. Still a little bright with LT opamps, but not bad.


----------



## razzz42

http://www.audiotrack.net/downloads/
   
  My experience using the PRODIGY 5.1 LTM driver from the Audiotrak website (above) loaded as an update for the existng HD2 control panel. As I noticed that LTM driver had a newer release date than all the others and I gave it a try for the hell of it. Loaded on XP and W7 no problems. What I'm missing is confirmation from someone else that that the update did in fact change.improve the quality of the sound(s).
   
  Would like another opinion to check if my hearing is still good.
   
  Rolled amps so many times that I will have to pull the card and look and see what I have running right now. I'll report back later. In the meantime, plug your headphones into a MP3 player and that's what it your music sounds like pretty much raw no enhancements uncompressed. Compare that to what your card is putting out.
   
  Leaving socket(s) empty is just another configuration.
   
  BTW, now have the Klipsch Promedia 2.1 sub powering two Klipsch RSX-5 satellites. I like it, a lot.


----------



## oohms

Drivers won't and shouldn't give any change in sound..
   
  If it's not running bit perfect, you really should change it so it does


----------



## ManuLM

Klipsch RSX-5 kick ass, really...


----------



## razzz42

Currently running in my Prodigy HD2 Advance DE: (2)  BB OPA 2604 AP and (1) LT1364 CN8 off the shelf no modifications. Works for me. You could do a lot worse and not much better, going by the opinions found here. Sending well recorded and quality music through these op-amps results in little enhancement (color or warmth) but clarity, separation, staging and good range from bass to voice to highs is all present. Very clean sound.

 Not using headphones, listening through a Klipsch Promedia 2.1 system.


----------



## razzz42

Chick Corea Return To Forever [4 tracks (flac)] is sounding pretty good (jazz type music early 70s).


----------



## anawatsao

I am using the Advance HD2 now with no opamp. it bypass direct to preaikido tube 6n1p+6n6p by ubuntu studio 9.10 os.
  [size=x-small]I think the best way to [/size]_linear_ regulated power _supply_[size=x-small] and balance output...coomingsoon.[/size]


----------



## razzz42

There is a jumper on the HD2 to bypass the op-amps and send the Envy signal out raw which includes 5.1 decoded.
   
  I've loaded my Prodigy 7.1 HiFi up with (4) BB OPA 2604 AP and (1) LT1364 installed on XP3 with the usual volume slider issues and not complete function in the control panel but enough.
   
  After uninstalling any existing sound drivers from device manager without restarting I then had Win7 load the card by installing (if the install programs refused to run, I used the Prodigy uninstall progam .exe which along side the uninstall button it also has an update button, I used it) the most current Win7 (32) driver ver,108 then without restarting installed ver.102 then without restarting installed  ver.0978 (I believe to be an driver update/fix only) then *without clicking* the Win7 restart, I simply hit the reset button on the computer tower per a post around here somewhere that pretty much said that was the way he did it. It worked except QVE was listed as unknown? in the Device Manager so I right clicked to auto update for only that one driver and it updated and showed as QVE. Normal restart to find the Prodigy Control Panel up and running. Only the QVE button doesn't light up but every other enhancement button works to just using one or all of them at once. Lots of echo, bass, treble and whatever else those button do when you click them all on.
   
  Foobar v.1.03 lists in preferences>playback>output three Prodigy drivers and one primary driver. They all work but you might have to restart Foobar after selecting one for it to run.
   
  Many settings in Win7 I haven't played with yet like associating programs or un-associating programs with Prodigy and/or giving control to programs to dictate setting in the Prodigy Control Panel. One of the updates fixed Nero volume control to associate your mouse control when on screen. Seems bit and Hz has to be set via Win7 mixer access and/or speaker properties>advanced.
   
  Running Klipsch 4.1 sub (2 X 6.5" sub drivers) with 2 front Klipsch RSX-5 and (2) RSX-4 Center speakers used as the rears but I simply used a 'Y' on the green front out on the Prodigy to feed both the front and rear, for now. Just using the RSX-5 in a 2.1 setup is a joy. You can only imagine what these rears add. Even low volume listening is very pleasing. (Spain)
   
  Prodigy 7.1 HiFi is extremely powerful and clean seems more so than my HD2. There has to be something said for software and drivers because Win7 is sounding better than what XP3 can produce. Every setting is more well defined or noticeable, at least on my setup. Choosing from the different drivers in Foobar's settings are all good options depending on your listening style.
   
  Eventually I'll hookup the Klipsch Ultra 5.1 and give a listen to but that sub (2 X 8" drivers) scares me.
  .


----------



## Miska

Hi!

 First sorry my wrong english.

 I have an Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 soundcard. It works good.

 But.I have a question.

 I have a Sennheiser PX100 headphone. It is 32 ohm. But Audiotrak is 150-600.

 So, If I will use my headphone, my soundcard will damage?

 Thanks for the answer.

 Bye,
 Michael


----------



## razzz42

Finally tried  AD797BR with the needed adapters. First impression, nice all around sound esp. in the mid-range like vocals. This is on a Prodigy HD2 using one  LT1364CN8 with XP. To my ears outputting from speakers a bit weak on low end after listening to OPA 2604AP (<<< extremely tight on the bass) and a little weak on the high end sounds. Can't have everything but I might try using my Prodigy 7.1 HiFi with the 797s on the front and 2604s on the rear still using one 1364 outgoing. All in all the 797s were very much worth the price of admission.
   
  Also tried OPA 627AU with the needed adapters again with 1364 outgoing and stock Prodigy HD2. That didn't go over to well as volume output was low and seemed to filter out to many  _frequencies and left the sound vacant.  Didn't play around with them much._


----------



## joe_cool

Quote: 





miska said:


> Hi!
> 
> First sorry my wrong english.
> 
> ...


 

 no


----------



## Space2012

Finally I did the AD797BR as I/V, LT1028CSW as buffer mod and I like it!
   
  Was happy with 3x BB OPA2604 but this new config has more depth and more dynamic .Also better separation and low kick.
  XP did not like my change, had to remove the 1.08 drivers in safe mode and to reinstall.(Foobar+ASIO).   mod                 and I like it!    2104    Foobar+ASIO)))..WWW
  Win7 did take the change. (Foobar+WASAPI)
   
  had to push the adaptors well in the HD2 a bit loose... perhaps I will solder them permanantly..
   
  Thanks people of this forum for this great modification tip!
   
   
  Sounds even better now on my Little Dot 1+ and Beyer DT990 pro (the low kick kicks even harder)


----------



## ManuLM

welcome to the HD2+AD797+LT1028 club


----------



## palermo

anyone tried 2xLT1364 + LME49720HA ? my HD2 now plugged 2xOPA2134 + LME49720HA pumping my sennheiser HD555 directly via dual RCA to 6.3mm converter cable. I feel muddy sound, undefined  bass but punch enough. I have no idea about the sound LM4562NA vs LME49720HA. I need big soundstage with smooth midrange, no sibilance. which one could I use LME49720HA + 2xLT1364 or LME49720HA + 2xAD826.
  
  Quote: 





hadakan said:


> These four configs bellow are originally from *BadassBob*
> *D* --- 3x LM4562NA
> - definitely an upgrade over stock config
> *E* --- 2x LT1364 + LM4562NA
> ...


----------



## leeperry

palermo said:


> my sennheiser HD555 directly via dual RCA to 6.3mm converter cable. I feel muddy sound, undefined  bass


 

 The RCA output of the HD2 is not able to drive headphones by a long shot...how about using the headphones output instead?
   


space2012 said:


> Finally I did the AD797BR as I/V, LT1028CSW as buffer mod and I like it!


 

 LT1028ACN8 sounds far better than LT1028CS8 on the HD2 IME.


----------



## palermo

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> The RCA output of the HD2 is not able to drive headphones by a long shot...how about using the headphones output instead?
> 
> 
> LT1028ACN8 sounds far better than LT1028CS8 on the HD2 IME.


 
  I can't enjoy the sound if use headphone out despite could be more loud volume, but really harsh treble


----------



## leeperry

palermo said:


> I can't enjoy the sound if use headphone out despite could be more loud volume, but really harsh treble


 

 Well, it's using a cheapo NJM4580 opamp...if the HD595 is anything like the HD650, this cannot drive your phone properly. This can only take care of the so-called "easy to drive" headphones(low impedance/high sensitivity).


----------



## Aficionado

Hello Everybody.
 As new owner of an HD2 DE I read the whole thread to decide tuning the OPAMPs.

 We listening to every kind of music and are yet quite happy with female vocals (also quite good yet with the onboard sound Envy HD Via VT2020). The chain is quite fast (not yet listened with headphones) and the amplifier a little bit on the bassy side.
 What I am looking for is a wider SS, good middles and defined but not dominating bass. (overall good musicality).
 With foobar and WASAPI at least bass is very ok. _SS and middles could be better._

 Frightend to solder on card or browndogs and not wanting to spent a lot of money importing into Europe, I am looking on the following OPAM combinations:

*I.) I/V: 2x AD797AN* (cheap at german i-net electr shop) on Dual to Mono converters from the bay + Buf: *2xLT1028CN8* (on same conv.)
 Q1: Will I have trouble with stable function of LT1028?
 Q2: Is there an alternative for the buffer (LM4562 and LME49720 not easy available> only import) ? (eg. possibel running w/o buffer? amplifier is sufficient powerfull to handle it, other disadvantages?)

*II.) I/V: 2x AD797BRZ* on Browndog (from the known supplier) + Buf: ? (eg as I.)
 Q3: Is it really worth to spent 60€ more for BRZ type? (soldering on my own would be a little bit cheaper, still resulting in 25-35€ extra, due to custom charges etc.)

*III.) I/V: 2x LT1364 + Buf: LT1361* (cheapest option, available in other german electr. shop)
  Q4: Is this worth to try? Wull the SS be notable better from standard?
   
  Had a look to Farnell, but not so cheap.

 Thanks a lot.


----------



## razzz42

98% of the time I am listening to a Klipsch speaker system, rarely use headphones.
   
  After breaking in and listening to recommended op-amps  here, I'll go with 'leeperry'  and others using  AD797BR and OPA627AU even though these require adapters they can be found on E-Bay already assembled from China for cheap. Even cheaper if you opt for used pieces.
   
  Using these op-amps with satisfy your need for the mid and high ranges but still with tight bass. Staging is very good.
   
  I bought an Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 (already have the Advanced board/card) and loaded the Prodigy HD x2v control panel with it which the Prodigy HD2 Advanced card will not load the Prodigy Control panel [(only uses VIA drivers.) I have to read on how to flash or software update the Advanced card to be recognized to use the Prodigy HD x2v control panel.] I prefer the Prodigy HD x2v control panel since you can do more meaningful adjustments to sound versus the VIA driver panel.
   
  I can't tell any difference between the regular HD2 and the HD2 Advanced card when running AD797BRs and a OPA627AU in both cards, mainly because when I use the HD2 and its Prodigy Control panel, I can adjust sound anyway I want. I noticed on the regular HD2,  leaving (2) of the stock NE5532 op-amps but using (1) OPA627AU for output, is a huge improvement. I can always adjust if I want pounding bass or extreme highs maybe even both. The 'normalize' button helps bring the sound forward. I never use the 3D effects button.
   
  So I think my first purchase would be a OPA627AU for the output if I was trying to save a buck (a mini adapter board with (2) OPA627AU op-amps, one on top and the other underneath between the row of pins.
   
  Things are always changing but for now, some or all of the above should be pleasing enough to your ears.


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





> I flashed the ROM to EWDM....joe_cool


 
   
  Quote: 





> So flashing the card for the ESI drivers was the first thing I did...bl4ck


 
   
  How did you guys flash the ROM? Update firmware, reprogrammer?


----------



## Oery

Quote: 





razzz42 said:


> How did you guys flash the ROM? Update firmware, reprogrammer?


 

 Download:
 http://www.audiotrak.co.kr/audiotrak/drivers/eeprom/HD2EEPW.zip --- extract HD2EEPW.EXE
 http://www.audiotrak.co.kr/audiotrak/drivers/eeprom/eeprom.zip --- extract EEPRWA.EXE, eeprom.ini

 Put Jumper4 pin on (connected)

   
  Boot PC to PURE DOS (not DOS on Windows), you can use _Hiren BOOTCD (on flashdisk) in DOS Mode for this occasion_.

 From command prompt (and directory where extracted files are)
 1. Execute the rom update program "HD2EEPW.exe" restart to DOS again.
 2. Execute "EEPRWA.EXE".
 3. If the program output "PASS" the ROM update is performed successfully.
   
  Good luck


----------



## DrX3002

Linx Two: DAC CS4396, opamp OP275
  E-MU 1212: DAC CS4396, opamp NJM2068
   
  Somebody used it?
   
  My configuration is 2xNJM2068 1xOP275, probe it!!


----------



## ManuLM

Hi there,
   
  want to report an issue we had here, with the HD2. My HD2 died (sudden death, simply no longer seen by Windows)  a few weeks back. I've a friend  who bought the same card, he also modded the AD797BR as I/V, LT1028CSW as buffer. His card also suddenly died this week end.
   
  So I feel like either the card is not super reliable (he got a grade B from Ebay, but I got a pure retail card in Korea), or the mod harms its reliability (or we're damn unlucky).
   
  Do any of you modders - non modders face the same issue?
   
  Cheers,
  Emmanuel


----------



## krisno

I got a HD2 Advance DE. I got this burson v2 hdam.
   
  Will it be working if I bypass the first 2 opamps(the AKM dac has built in current to voltage so I/V is not needed), and put the burson in the buffer socket?? Will that work fine? And sound good I guess.
   
  The Audiotrak is a good soundcard, except very bad game support...
   
  K


----------



## earfanatic

A Small upgrade for the HD2+AD797+LT1028 branch... I tried some lme49990 as buffer and I liked it better than the LT1028. Very little change though. Maybe the lows are a bit more clean.
  So I removed the mod for more gain, HD2 is now set back to 1x gain as the LME49990 is unity gain stable. Now, I settle with this.
   
  Configuration:
  HD2 -> 2x AD797 -> 4x LME49990
   
  I would like to test 6x LME49990 sometimes but to be honest I am more than happy with the HD2 now!
   
  Actually my linux distro has some problem with remembering the volume I left when turned off the PC and always tuned it up to distortion level (full volume) with the gain mod on. Now I do not have to touch the volume every time my OS powers up.
  FYI: if You use the gain mod to use non unity gain buffers, Your full volume will me about 70% of Your Windows/Linux/Whatever sound settings level. So if You crank it up to 100% It will be overdriven and distort. Not a real problem if the system remembers the volume level You left it.


----------



## leeperry

earfanatic said:


> I tried some lme49990 as buffer and I liked it better than the LT1028. Very little change though.


 

 that's because you didn't try the AC grade of LT1028 IIRC


----------



## earfanatic

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> that's because you didn't try the AC grade of LT1028 IIRC


 


  Yep, I forgot to mention I had only the LT1028CS8 version.


----------



## Space2012

Have the 2x2x AD797BR (I/V)and 2x LT1028ACN (buffer) in the advanced HD2 version + the 4 470 ohm (not 460) resistors mod.
  like the sound of it :clear and direct.
  But this opamp 1028+resistors causes a loud PC power on and off 'plok' sound..
  Must be the sensitive nature of these opamp (1028 ) DC out power up/off?
  No hard plok with another opamp as buffer like lme49990? > eBay ordering...
   
  Update nov 9 : received The DUAL SOIC LME49990 DIP8 ADAPTER for the buffer> the 1028ACN  and resistors out.
  No loud PC Power on/off plok anymore just the soft driver clicks when windows boots.
  Sound ; clear, bright and detailed mids/high.
   
  Like the sound better than the 3x Burson version which I was selling: a bit to dark for me , just a matter of taste
   
  update nov27: back to LT1028ACN, no resistors mod . seems to work, opamps running cool, so far I can check with the fingers..
  like the LT1028ACN better than the LME49990; not so bright, more bass .
  The LME 49990 did I put in my Little Dot 1+  Head amp(+DT990) a better place for this bright but nice detailed opamp.
  (update :I did also a LT1028 (CS8)in my Little dot >also here deeper bass more 'organic' mids&high compared to the LME49990.

   
  Now is the sound balanced: deep bass, detailed, clear mid and high,  not overbright.
  So for me(and Leeperry) the  AD797BR and LT1028ACN combo is still unbeatable




   
  I will now try to solve the  power on/off plops with decoupling caps, output resitors and coils.
   
  update dec.4:specsheet:
   

   

  I did use a 47 pF over-compensation cap.power on/off plops seems less, less overshoot?.. tweaking on


----------



## TaGI

Dear lovers of great sounding music!
   
  I was always a freak of highest quality sound, but did come to the truth after many years by purchasing HD2 Advance DE soundcard (at least I hope so)
   
   
  To be most specific and less bothering for community just a few  questions:
   
  1. Which is best for W7X64: WDM or ASIO? I need the card exclusivelty for music.
  2. Based on this thread summary (excluded any experiments resulting in possible pops and clicks) going to settle at  LT1364x2+LT1361 or Lt1364x2+LM4562NA. Do we have any winners?
   
  Thank you for support


----------



## jigsawPB

Some people tell that sound of HD2 more harmony than the ASUS Essence...is it possible?


----------



## razzz42

Some other site that had the old guy judging sound by his ear rather than specs which is more my style, had some 'old cans' on the output. I found them, you guessed it, Ebay from China ($27 FS)  OPA 111BM already mounted on an adapter.
   
   I am still running the adapted AD797BR but replaced the adapted OPA627AU output with these adapted cans, no other mods.
   
  The cans seem to not filter out certain frequencies where the more sophisticated OP-AMPs do. Instead of a type of muddled bass, I hear low/deep musical tones off the, drums and bass guitar. Clarity is as good or better. Staging is slightly different but certainly not missing.  I'd say it favors the mid to lower ranges, only slightly missing the highs. Voice range is excellent. Seems to reproduce older recorded music well or at least makes it sound better, probably because these cans were used back then as the best available.
   
  Have some Sennheiser HD 280 Pro phones, never use them. Still in 2.1 mode using a Klipsch Ultra 5.1 sub with circa 2002 Klipsch bookshelf reference RB35RB75 speakers (6.5" mid, 1" tweet sits in a 5" horn, 52hz-20khz 94db 100watt, rear ported). These speakers actually drown out the sub for a prefect blend between the three.
   
  Update: Went back with AD797BR on 2 adapter boards (I/V) and BB OPA AU697 on one adapter board (Buffer) No other mods. If I don't like the immediate sound, I can always manipulate the VIA Audio Deck to my liking. These OP-AMPs seem to cover a large range and stage well, so I have have plenty of range to work with and the OP-AMPs are very responsive to software adjustments. [The Envy Vinyl chip never fails me.] Bought Audio Technica ATH-M40 headphones for cheap, the box says flat and they are but have a nice range, voices are very clean, bass is there but doesn't jump out at you hence the reason they are flat sounding (like needed for mixing).


----------



## TaGI

LME49990 with hd2 advance?
*Anybody used this?*
A bit too expensive though (double on DIP adapter) US$ 20 on ebay...


----------



## Space2012

dear tagi< just read my above post......
   
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/322497/audiotrak-prodigy-hd2-opamp-configurations-list/435#post_7861963


----------



## hknymz

Hello all,
   
  i am new user of HD2, Am i should flash my HD2? if yes, why?
   
  Thanks


----------



## ingvarb

Hi,
  Very interesting thread. I tried the suggested combo 1x2x LT1028 + 2x2x AD797 and found it good sounding, better than the quite nice sounding combo 1xAD8066+2xLT1358 prior on my HD2 card. Only it is somewhat veiled in upper midrange and treble and not as transparent as a new combo I recently tried. That is, 1x2x AD797+2xLT1124 that IMHO is a still better sounding combo, at least as compared to the CS version of the LT1028. I haven't tried the AC-version though so if it beats that one too I can't tell.


----------



## hknymz

i am using 1x 2xLT1028 and 2x49860, sound is good, i will try 2xAD8066 istead of 49860 when i AD8066s arrived )


----------



## ingvarb

This thread appears dead but for guidance I think I might anyway convey my experience and changed opinion on best opamp combo for the Prodigy HD2. After having built a high-end cics Memory Player computer with SSD, passive cooling and pi-filters on all voltages I have come to the conclusion that the combo 1x2xAD797 as buffer amp and 2xTHS4032 as filter amps is probably as good as it gets, or at least very, very close to it (theTHS4032 is a pain as buffer amp, sharp in sound and obviously not stable but perfect and superbly sounding as filter amp). On all adapters I have soldered small film caps between the  + and - rails and on the AD797 chips I have soldered 27pF disk caps between pin 6 and 8 (distortion reduction). This is high end opamps and with high end computer gear, this is high end sound to the point of getting surprised! The timing is perfect. There is an amazing coherence, Atmosphere in recordings comes through very convincingly. The treble was first a bit shy, but after inverting absolute phase 180 degree (a convenient button in cicsPlayer) it comes through just right. I can only say that this combination will stay and is highly recommended..


----------



## ingvarb

After some more listening I turned back to the LT1028CN8 as buffer stage. It has more body in instruments and they are more natural sounding. The AD797 is also very detailed and good sounding at first but it became obvious to me at comparing with the LT1028 that it has a slight artificial edge. That edge is also there in the filter positions. It became clear to me at comparing with the THS4032 that I find unsurpassed natural sounding here (but beware of putting it in the buffer position). The AD797 is said to be tricky but sounding very neutral and good if implemented correctly. It thus seems like the Prodigy HD2 might not provide the optimal implementation for this opamp. So the final suggestion from me is 1x2xLT1028CN8 + 2xTHS4032 for the Prodigy HD2 for unsurpassed SQ so far. The DIP8 version LT1028ACN8 sound very different from the CN8 and not as good at all (hard and with edge). It badly needs the resistor modification described in this thread to hopefully sound good as well (I havn't tried it though).


----------



## ingvarb

And one more thing. Forget about film caps between the rails (I know...I changed my opinion again). Solder electrolytic caps instead between the +V and -V rails on the opamp adapters. I use Elna Silmic II 100uF/25V. They do a great job cleaning up the sound in my system. Bass becomes more firm and midrange and treble more detailed. Be sure to solder the caps with as short leads as possible on the adapters (to avoid creating high frequency antennas). SQ is also much improves by implementing LC- or pi-filters (C parallel - L series - C parallel) between the PSU and the P24 and P4 connectors respectively in the computer, both between each voltage and ground and between +12V and -12V. I use 4 pi-filters,1500uF-3.3mH-3300uF, between P24 +12V, -12V, +5V, +3V respectively and ground, another one between P4.+12V and ground and two 1500uF caps between P24 +12V and -12V, one before and one after the 3.3 mH inductors. Just be careful with the choice of inductor so it can take the current and the voltage drop won't become to large. .


----------



## hknymz

Here is my mod 
   
   
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/p1150565.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/p1150566.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/p1150567w.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/p1150568e.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/p1150569.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/p1150570.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/p1150571y.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/p1150573u.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/p1150574.jpg/


----------



## ingvarb

Very nice! Beautiful capacitor mod. I tried myself once to upgrade the capacitors but ended up in a ruined card due to using a too high wattage soldering-iron, so well done! I see AD8066 as filter amps, but which amp is the nice can? How does your HD2 sound after the mod?.


----------



## hknymz

sound is perfect, i was try 8066s two different combination, first one 49720ha and second one lt1028, i was happy with two different combo, now i am using 1x 1361 and 2x 1364, no big difference, i am happy with this combo too.


----------



## ingvarb

After adding the CLC-filter between the P24 +12V and -12V I realize that before I did that I listened and judged not only the SQ potential of the opamps but their capacity to suppress garbage on the rails. With insufficiently filtered rails, LT1028CN8 (on the buffer position) came out as the better one in that respect. With adequate filtering, however, both AD797 and THS4032 sound much better as buffer. LT 1028 and THS4032 are drier sounding as compared to the AD797 that is more emotional sounding. At times, however, it can be a little to much emphasis on the lead instrument I think, so I believe there may be a slight coloration, reflecting maybe an implementation issue on the HD2 (although the SQ is still on a very high level). THS4032 sounds very similar to LT1028CN8 and maybe it reproduces even more of micro detail, but to the prize of a slightly harsh upper end. So LT 1028CN8 remains the opamp of my choice as buffer. It benefits a lot too from the extra filtering of the P24 and P4 computer voltages and good quality electrolytic capacitors between +V and -V on the opamp adapters. What I have learned then is that 1x2xLT1028CN8 + 2xTHS4032 on the HD2 together with a careful overall computer voltage clean up can make very good SQ.


----------



## ingvarb

The 27pF ceramic disk caps I soldered on the AD797s proved to be a bad idea. Taking them off made an improvement. I now hear sweeter and more natural sound with the AD797 than with the THS4032 on the filter positions, so I'm back with the combo suggested in this thread, 1x2xLT1028 + 2x2xAD797. It's a really good combo, and if sound quality is important, try the LC- or CLC-filters on the computer voltages, they do wonders (e.g., small 2x 3.3 mH iinductors, as e.g. Schurter DKFP, combined with 470-2200uF electrolytics).


----------



## ingvarb

Tried the HD2 without bufferamp and got the best computer sound I have ever heard. Leaving the buffer opamp socket empty gave much better sound than with the LT1028 or any other opamp at that position I have tried. I then compared THS4032 and AD797 on the filter positions and the clear winner in my opinion is the THS4032. I hear more refined and distinct sound combined with much blacker background. It gives the impression, whether true or not, that it doesn't contribute with any coloring at all. It just reproduce the music beautifully in a true and belivable fashion. Sound level out in the RCAs is about the same with or without the buffer opamp. Lifting off the buffer opamp means that the active output stage consists of only one instead of three opamps per channel. That is good I think (less is more!). Instead of using the balanced output (+ and -) from the DAC chip, as with a buffer opamp in place, only single-ended output from the chip is used with the buffer opamp removed (that is, only the + output). But it works very well, so try it!


----------



## razzz42

Using a Prodigy HD2 DE (VIA driver 5.12.1.3656, no VIA software), I went from an old configuration of (2)AD797BR and (1) 627AU to new configuration of (2) LME49990MA and (1) 627AU. or without the 627AU LT1028ACN8 in the output (needs this adapter).  Listening with either ATH AD700 (open) or ATH A900X (closed).
   
  For a point of reference, listened to Donald Fagen - Morph The Cat - Mary Shut The Garden Door - 2006 in FLAC  Wavpack via Media Player Classic and The Very Best Of Fleetwood Mac - Everywhere - 2009 remastered from the original tape but well done for back in the day (1985-1987),  Hummin' To Myself - Linda Ronstadt - Hummin' To Myself - 2004  and a recent movie with Pitch Perfect (2012) Blu-Ray (DTS) 24bits, 48KHz sampling.
   
  To my ears: LME49990MA beautiful on the mid and esp. high end. Lacks a bit on the low end but I prefer the detailed highs as there is much going on in that range. Compared to the old configuration the AD797BR has more low (bass) range and is missing an area between the upper mids and high range. LME49990MA covers the entire mid to high range with very good separation, details and clarity, bass is in the background somewhat but maybe the new chips will break-in, both headphones are broken in already.**
   
  Because of LME49990MA clarity, I prefer listening with my AD700's staging and highs response, Most ATH always have good voice range, so no problems there.
   
  Through my Klipsch Ultra 5..1 sub, the bass is very clean. So the jury is still out if  the LME49990MA is producing a more natural clean bass sound versus the AD797BR coloring the bass or highlighting it to much. Having the open headphones on with the sub on pumping out the bass is a real plus.
   
  ** Bass only slightly highlighted. More bass showing up after 10 - 20 hours of breaking in the LME49990MA chips, can't really explain it but just starting booming better but still has the cleanness in bass sound that I am not use to. Turned my AD700 into a well balanced headphone. My A900X are turning out to be very capable phones minus some staging of course.
   
  Because the LME49990MA is my first opamp that was specifically tailored for music [Discrete? (according to the literature)] that I have used versus opamps that had other uses (ex. MRI machines or phone banks) but also worked with music and human hearing ranges_, I am finding the _LME49990MA a great sounding _opamp, very clean sounds throughout even the bass range being clean is something different to my ears.  _
   
  The following opamps are all used on their appropriate dual adapter boards. LME49990MA stayed on-board and I only exchanged in the output socket. Because of the LME49990MA the output opamps I tried below have a great signal to work with and give good benefits depending what you prefer...
  *OPA627AU in the output seems to add a little unnecessary color to the sound,
  sounds better without them/it.
  *AD797BR in the output, more highlighted bass now with the highs slightly more pronounced (owing to more hiss present in poor recordings) maybe a hair tinny in the highs.
  *AD8066AR in the output favors the bass, not in bad a way but colors/puts its tone even on a hum of a bad recording. Nice if you like your bass sounds.
  *LT1028CN8 in the output makes the bass sound a bit more believable but the very highs suffered (purchased this model by mistake).
  *LT1028ACN8 in the output gives clarity and separation throughout the ranges causing great staging, favors the highs, lows slightly hidden in the background (my favorite output chip so far).
   
  Some dual channels chips that didn't require an adapter board...
  *NE5532N in the output makes no changes to the signal other than enhancements like turning up the volume across the entire range at once, very very clean sounding.
  *LT1364CN8 in the output favors the highs and enhances the clarity along with staging with a little bass boost. Very clean as well (like its brother LT 1028CN8 above).
  *AD827JNZ in the output favors the lows to mids, brings them forward and puts the highs in the background. Very strong and realistic lows with a trade off of losing some detail in the highs. (So far best at handling lows)
   
  Listened with, AD700 and A900X headphones.


----------



## ingvarb

Thank you razzz42 for your report on the LME49990.. Because of it I had to buy those chips (on adapters from China), and now I understand why you like them so much. I fully agree, the LME sound even better than the very good in my opinion THS4032. So now I am about to be lost in Nirvana listening to computer sound through LME49990. No joking, the most detailed and yet uncolored and neutral sounding opamp I have heard, provided implemented correctly. I only use them at the two filter positions, leaving the buffer position empty for best SQ. I also soldered an Auricap 4.7uF PP cap in parallell with the 100 uF electrolytic cap at each one of the balanced plus outputs from the DAC chip (the minus outputs are not used as I use no output buffer amp). The plus outputs are at the uppermost and lowermost of the four 100uF/25V caps on the card connecting to the balanced DAC outputs (Oscon caps on my card). The Auricaps made the highs sound maybe even more detailed but too analytical and cold. The remedy was to solder an Elna Silmic II 100uF/25V cap between V+ and V- on each LME adapter and a wonderful sweetness of the highs was seducing me. At the empty buffer amp position I also soldered 0.47 ohm in series with a 0.47 uF film cap between V+ and ground, between V- and ground, and between V+ and V-. These RC networks serve to get rid of residual capacitor inductance in my CLC filters, which in theory may improve high frequency performance. Whether they do I don't know, but they don't hurt anyway. .


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





ingvarb said:


> Thank you razzz42 for your report on the LME49990.. Because of it I had to buy those chips (on adapters from China), and now I understand why you like them so much. I fully agree, the LME sound even better than the very good in my opinion THS4032. So now I am about to be lost in Nirvana listening to computer sound through LME49990...


 
  Glad you are having a good time. I think, and it is always open to debate, that those LME49990 will burn in and sound even better after 50+ hours or so. I will scratch the THS4032 off my to do list.
   
  Only relaying my opinions on sound, the LME49990 used alone without the buffer socket filled, sounds 'cluttered' as if all the instruments are on top of each other bleeding together like into only two stereo pickup mikes. Not necessarily a bad thing, as you can still hear all the details and ranges. I find using the buffer socket gives separation and with that comes more clarity depending on what buffer opamp is used.
   
  For the buffer I favor LT1028ACN8 for its highs and clarity which causes better staging to me and recently AD827JNZ for favoring lows and mids plus brings everything forward with only the slightest loss of staging (nice on lows and mids so you won't miss much loss of highs, if any). I could live with either as long as LME49990 is feeding them.
   
  Leeperry, who has good observations and ears, was speaking to some adapter boards like the Brown Dog Single-to-dual Op-AMP Adapter 
  (wanting the (2) dip-sockets pre-mounted is extra) as flimsy. I agree, when compared to waiting for China to send the same type of adapter but more substantial is worth the wait. Thought I ordered an extra (2) LT1028ACN8 but ended up receiving (2) LT1028CN8 and ordered the said adapter board from China too. Of course I tried them out anyway but on the swap I saw the existing (2) LT1028CN8 were mounted on a the green Brown Dog adapter and on closer inspection found the legs fit loose in some of the through holes to the point that I wondered if they were making a decent connection or not. Might _have __attributed_ to my thinking that I had some hearing loss on the right ear cup instead of my actual ear drum for the last month or so. Might be hard to tell now with the burn in possibly being unequal. I think it was poor contact. Red colored adapter fits snug.
   
  BTW, the (2) LT1028CN8 preformed under the AD827JNZ by making the bass sound a bit more believable but the very highs suffered by going missing.


----------



## mrlimbo

Hi , seriously thinking of getting this card , do the opamps effect both the head output and rca output ? just thought i read somewhere that it wasnt both , but that could be an entirely different card , among the many ive been researching of late !!


----------



## ingvarb

Quote: 





> seriously thinking of getting this card , do the opamps effect both the head output and rca output ?


 
  Hi, don't think you will be disapointed. As far as I understand, the two dual filter opamps closest to the DAC affect both the head output and the RCA outputs, while the single buffer opamp after the filter opamps only affect the RCA output. That is, you can remove the buffer opamp and the head output still works as before. I just checked it on my card.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





ingvarb said:


> Hi, don't think you will be disapointed. As far as I understand, the two dual filter opamps closest to the DAC affect both the head output and the RCA outputs, while the single buffer opamp after the filter opamps only affect the RCA output. That is, you can remove the buffer opamp and the head output still works as before. I just checked it on my card.


 
  Hi , many thanks for the info , can you change the output power of the headphone amp via software ?


----------



## Darknecron

I am also considering this sound card.  I am looking for an upgrade over my onboard Realtek ALC 887.
   
My setup.
   
  I don't use headphones...the set around the base of my monitor in the pic is literally just for the microphone.
   
  Satellites:  Cambridge S30s
  Subwoofer:  Outlaw M8
  Amplifier:  Audiosource AMP 100
  Soundcard:  Realtek ALC 887


----------



## razzz42

HD2 [special that has upgraded(?) capacitors]   
   
  Good enough for changing out opamps to satisfy your stereo sounds curiosity without breaking the bank but you need a PCI slot.
   
  I never read much comparison on the old Vinyl Envy chip, now re-branded,  used on this card to any newer chips. Sounds fine to me.


----------



## Darknecron

Hm... $20 cheaper, even after being "upgraded"?  Not sure If I would trust that...no mention of any warranty either.  :/
   
  EDIT:  Yeah, it comes with the "LITE" edition's Op-amps, which I would end up swapping out for the "ADVANCED" configuration.  I'm pretty sure that the "Special Edition" is just a LITE edition under a false label.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





darknecron said:


> Hm... $20 cheaper, even after being "upgraded"?  Not sure If I would trust that...no mention of any warranty either.  :/
> 
> EDIT:  Yeah, it comes with the "LITE" edition's Op-amps, which I would end up swapping out for the "ADVANCED" configuration.  I'm pretty sure that the "Special Edition" is just a LITE edition under a false label.


 
  Yes your correct , it is the "Lite" version
   
  This info i copy and pasted a while ago , from some forum , might even be from here !
   
   
  Audiotrak Prodigy HD2
 There are three official manufactured configurations (as far as I know):
 LITE --- 3x NE5532
 GOLD --- 2x OPA2134 + JRC5532
 ADVANCE --- 2x OPA2134 + OPA2604


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## razzz42

Quote: 





darknecron said:


> Hm... $20 cheaper, even after being "upgraded"?  Not sure If I would trust that...no mention of any warranty either.  :/
> 
> EDIT:  Yeah, it comes with the "LITE" edition's Op-amps, which I would end up swapping out for the "ADVANCED" configuration.  I'm pretty sure that the "Special Edition" is just a LITE edition under a false label.


 
   

 You would have to ask the guys who roll capacitors what they think about the 'special' card from the link. Card is basically the same except for the capacitors called out and compared to the 'Advanced' edition card in the Ebay listing. Any factory installed opamps, you are going to pull and replace anyway, non issue there but I would hope you would go for a better upgrade in opamps than the 'Advanced' configuration.
   
  The DAC 'Envy' chip is still supported by stable VIA's drivers (occasionally updated believe it or not).
   
  Same company doing the selling and they have sold a lot of both cards. Have to email about the warranty, my guess is that it is the same for both cards... Must have a glut of NE5532 opamps to get rid of.
   
  Any opinions on the 'special' card capacitors?


----------



## ingvarb

Quote: 





> can you change the output power of the headphone amp via software ?


 
  Yes you can.


----------



## Darknecron

If the capacitor upgrade turns out to be legit, I will get the card from e-bay.
   
   
  Here are links to PDFs describing each capacitor series' specs.  I don't know how to read them, but I'm sure you guys do.  
   
AHS Series Capacitors
   
LXV Series Capacitors
   
   
  One question though...where is a good place to purchase op-amps?  my local radio shack is quite lacking...
   
  Okay, two questions:  Would it be possible to make an EMI shield for this card, like the one on the ASUS Xonar STX?


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





darknecron said:


> One question though...where is a good place to purchase op-amps?  my local radio shack is quite lacking...
> 
> Okay, two questions:  Would it be possible to make an EMI shield for this card, like the one on the ASUS Xonar STX?


 
  Depending on if you want popular opamps, buying from China or Hong Kong off Ebay is usually the cheapest way to go but do be careful. Electronic houses in the US and Canada might send you some free samples. It all depends on what you want or think what you want to start narrowing down the possibilities then price shop for them.
   
  I have the Prodigy Lite card and the Advanced card and the 7.1 HiFi (which has a shield), they all perform well without interference, as is. That means there is dead silence at idle through the speakers or headphones.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





ingvarb said:


> Yes you can.


 
  Thanks for the info , useful to know , if i need to fall back to this card , as ive bought a Asus Xonar D2 , but not 100% convinced that it will come my way !!!!


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## Darknecron

Well, I just ordered the card off of e-bay.     I can hardly wait for it to arrive!  I will be swapping the op-amp configuration with one of those from the first post.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





razzz42 said:


> I have the Prodigy Lite card and the Advanced card .


 
  Hi , what are the major differences that youve found between the 2 and is it worth the £15 more for the Advance DE ?
  Thanks


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





mrlimbo said:


> Hi , what are the major differences that youve found between the 2 and is it worth the £15 more for the Advance DE ?
> Thanks


 
  The original 'lite' model seems slightly flat and not as detailed. Hard to notice using stock opamps but the better opamps needs better capacitors to handle the signal flow or at least respond to a better signal flow.
   
  You would have to ask the do-it-yourself guys about the specifics (somewhere on this board), I'm guessing even the 'special' card would be an improvement over the 'lite' version capacitors. Can't tell any difference between the 7.1 HiFi version and the 'Advanced' model when comparing stereo output.
   
  Yeah, the extra bucks/euros are worth it in my opinion, not that you are dealing with the absolute top of the line hardware but the 'Advanced' card has (3) sockets to roll opamps in and out of and is a solid performer. Reinstalled opamps and the card itself hundreds times and with that I know exactly what the guys are talking about when it comes to staging, highs, lows, mids, details, sibilance, warmth, color and all the other descriptions used for different opamps sounds. One of my better investments for speaker and headphone output, very satisfying.
   
  I have tried some other brand cards and find them to 'dark' sounding or veiled.


----------



## razzz42

Quote: 





darknecron said:


> Well, I just ordered the card off of e-bay.     I can hardly wait for it to arrive!  I will be swapping the op-amp configuration with one of those from the first post.


 
  If you know what sound(s) you like or type of music, you might ask again here what the guys might recommend for opamps lately.


----------



## Darknecron

Quote: 





razzz42 said:


> If you know what sound(s) you like or type of music, you might ask again here what the guys might recommend for opamps lately.


 
  Why thank you.  
   
  I listen to a broad range of music (bold is what I listen to more often):
   
*Dubstep*
*Trance*
  Drum n Bass
  Trap
  Classical
*Orchestral*
*Trailer*
  Lite Metal
  Rock
   
  I prefer clarity above all.  I don't like excessive brightness or bloated bass.  Slight warmth is fine with me, although my Cambridge S30 bookshelf speakers already have a hint of it.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





mrlimbo said:


> Thanks for the info , useful to know , if i need to fall back to this card , as ive bought a Asus Xonar D2 , but not 100% convinced that it will come my way !!!!


 
  Well the Xoner D2 did fall through , so the HD2 is back in my thoughts , has anyone any experience of both cards ie the Prodigy HD 2 ADVANCE DE & Xoner D2 or D2X , as i can get both for the same price , although the D2 would be 2nd hand , ive read great things about the D2 plus its a £100+ card and it has a shield , my concern about the HD 2 is its lack of a shield and its seems to need alot of tweaks to get a great sound ? ie reading this thread !!!
   
  If the Hd 2 is on par with the XD2 sound/dac wise and the lack of a shield is not a problem , then i will order the HD 2 , really want to get this sorted ASAP its getting on for 2 months trying to decide LOL ................and i thought i had made a decision when i ordered the X D2 .... Alas not !!!!
   
  Any help would be really great


----------



## Darknecron

I think that with the swappable op-amps, the sound can be improved further than other cards at the price bracket.  I made a similar statement about the HD2 not having an emi shield, but according to razzz42, it has no noticeable interference anyway (probably due to it's pci noise killer circuit).


----------



## moriez

Quote: 





darknecron said:


> I think that with the swappable op-amps, the sound can be improved further than other cards at the price bracket.  I made a similar statement about the HD2 not having an emi shield, but according to razzz42, it has no noticeable interference anyway (probably due to it's pci noise killer circuit).


 
   
  Can't tell what other soundcards are capable of but the HD2 for sure can be improved on. The NE5532(lite) opamps sounded quite shrill compared to LT1361/64. In turn those sounded _less _to me than a Bdog-adapter combo. Never even tried the OPA opamps from the Advance version. When it comes to swapping, there's lot's possibilities and you can keep yourself busy for a while. The EMI noise though is there on my system but only noticeable when no music is playing and the volume is way up. I guess that would be the case for a lot of internal soundcards. Now that I went the external route I sure as heck won't be going back


----------



## Darknecron

Quote: 





moriez said:


> Can't tell what other soundcards are capable of but the HD2 for sure can be improved on. The NE5532(lite) opamps sounded quite shrill compared to LT1361/64.


 
   
  I already have 2xLT1361 and a LT1364 being shipped to me as samples, so I can swap out those NE5532s on day 1.  Such an awesome company.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





darknecron said:


> I already have 2xLT1361 and a LT1364 being shipped to me as samples, so I can swap out those NE5532s on day 1.  Such an awesome company.


 
  So you went with the "Lite" edition , was that down to price or other reasons ? , im just so undecided about this card , the more i read this thread to more confused i get !!! , my overall impression from this thread is that peeps arnt really happy with it , so keep changing the opamps with more and more exotic ones , all the time , to try and get it to sound good ?,but seems theres always something lacking even after all that ?? , whereas the Xoner D2 just gets glowing reviews everywhere i read , but ive just missed out on another one , so im getting desparate LOL


----------



## Darknecron

Quote: 





mrlimbo said:


> So you went with the "Lite" edition , was that down to price or other reasons ? , im just so undecided about this card , the more i read this thread to more confused i get !!! , my overall impression from this thread is that peeps arnt really happy with it , so keep changing the opamps with more and more exotic ones , all the time , to try and get it to sound good ?,but seems theres always something lacking even after all that ?? , whereas the Xoner D2 just gets glowing reviews everywhere i read , but ive just missed out on another one , so im getting desparate LOL


 
   
  I got the Advanced Special Edition.  It has slightly upgraded capacitors, but only comes with the lite edition's OP AMP configuration.  It is also $20 cheaper than the Advanced edition.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





darknecron said:


> I got the Advanced Special Edition.  It has slightly upgraded capacitors, but only comes with the lite edition's OP AMP configuration.  It is also $20 cheaper than the Advanced edition.


 
  Oh ok , i thought the "Advanced Special Edition" "Lite" & "B grade" were all the same card DOH!!


----------



## moriez

Quote: 





mrlimbo said:


> im just so undecided about this card , the more i read this thread to more confused i get !!! ,


 
   
  My take, get the one that you feel best about. Could be the Xonar for you.
   
  Grab the Advanced (non special) version so you won't be thinking what the ''better'' version could have been like. The price difference really is next to nothing is it not? On the other hand, I don't think one will be able to discern substantial difference between the versions aside from the opamp configuration.
  Opamps are relatively cheap. Darknecron even got the LT's for free.
    
   
  Quote:


> my overall impression from this thread is that peeps arnt really happy with it , so keep changing the opamps with more and more exotic ones , all the time , to try and get it to sound good ?,but seems theres always something lacking even after all that ??


 
   
  I think the reason behind that is because most just enjoy experimenting and getting the most out of it. Always looking for more and that's definititely not limited to this particular card


----------



## razzz42

Buying opamps is cheaper than buying new headphones as most of the time the listener wishes to make only certain changes to sounds that an equalizer can't do or when permanent soldered opamps can't be changed out easily.
   
  Being able to change out 3 opamps positions and an headphone amp is a real plus.
   
  Can't say you will hear much difference in sound from cheap headphones or speakers or low quality recordings if they are not responsive enough to react to better opamps but there is always the readiness for hardware upgrades with a decent sound card in place (stand alone, USB, computer, etc.)
   
  Then if you are sending a decent opamp signal out to a receiver, you need to be able to bypass the receiver's on board DAC with 'uncontrolled' out jacks (whatever they might be called) or the sound signal is going to be reprocessed with probably unnecessary or unwanted enhancement.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





moriez said:


> My take, get the one that you feel best about. Could be the Xonar for you.
> 
> Grab the Advanced (non special) version so you won't be thinking what the ''better'' version could have been like. The price difference really is next to nothing is it not? On the other hand, I don't think one will be able to discern substantial difference between the versions aside from the opamp configuration.
> Opamps are relatively cheap. Darknecron even got the LT's for free.
> ...


 
  Hi , yes some very wise words there , your right , ive recently bought a hybrid tube head amp , now i read alot about that before buying , and almost everyone said that it needed upgrade ops & tubes to be any good , now ive got the upgrades waiting to use , but i wanted to know what the signature sound was of the standard model , so im keeping it "as is" for a couple of months , and to me it is outstanding and has improved my phones by 70% if not more !!!
   
  Ive made alot of changes lately ie new comp , sound card , phone amp , but still the same phones , i think i will stick with the current card for now , as long as i can , and try and save for a "Asus xonar essence st/x" , but if i cant , i will go for this card , i already have alot of the opamps.
   
  Thanks everyone for all the great knowledge and info


----------



## Darknecron

The card arrived today, before the sample op-amps.  Even with the stock LT-version's op-amps, I immediately noticed an improvement in clarity, definition, and soundstage over my onboard Realtek ALC 887...especially so with bass and treble.


----------



## mrlimbo

Quote: 





darknecron said:


> The card arrived today, before the sample op-amps.  Even with the stock LT-version's op-amps, I immediately noticed an improvement in clarity, definition, and soundstage over my onboard Realtek ALC 887...especially so with bass and treble.


 
  Thats great news , which opamps have you ordered ?


----------



## Darknecron

2x LT1364
   
  2x LT1361
   
   
  Both free samples.  I will grab another LT1361 later to try the 3x LT1361 configuration.


----------



## Darknecron

I just learned what the "S" and the "N" means in the LT op-amp's names.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Didn't learn that in electrical fundamentals! 
   
  I have re-ordered samples in the proper "N" format.


----------



## Darknecron

Yesterday I received and installed my correct op-amps.  The difference in sound was immediately noticeable.
  Treble:  Dramatically improved clarity and definition
  Midrange:  Similar improvements almost equal to the treble's in magnitude
  Bass:  Hits harder, sub-bass seems more defined
  Soundstage:  Much wider and more clearly defined


----------



## mynegation

2x LT1364 + LT1361 - this is good configuration for listening death, black and doom metal on my Grado SR-225 headphones giving a warm and detailed sound. Unfortunately when connected to Triangle Stratos Solis 260 loudspeakers bass is too heavy and overwhelming.


----------



## Space2012

"Leaving the buffer opamp socket empty gave much better sound than with the LT1028 or any other opamp at that position I have tried"  http://www.head-fi.org/t/322497/audiotrak-prodigy-hd2-opamp-configurations-list/450#post_9087369
 Indeed!volume seems the same to.
 have only (2x2) AD797BR as I/V as opamps.
 The LT1028 as a non unified gain Buffer  opamp did crash my win8.1 also(with no resistor gain tweak) .


----------

