# Is It Really Worth 'Upgrading' Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 Cables?



## danzal

As per title really.
   
  I'm a cable skeptic. Well, maybe not an outright skeptic, but have a healthy level of snake-oil awareness and a distrust of manufacturer advertising skullduggery. I've spent a lot of money on cables in the past, only to replace them with cheaper manufacturer brands with no detriment to SQ. This is in my main hifi setup I hasten to add which is of a high enough 'end' to warrant high cost cabling in some peoples eyes at least. I do use_ some _decent cabling, just not always mainstream hifi brand stuff.
   
  I'd basically like to hear the opinions that people have regarding the changing of stock Senn cables, and if possible the results of any blind testing done. Were the cables really better, or did they make no difference whatsoever? I have access to some nice instrument cable at work (PTFE dielectric, SPOFC, mylar screened etc. etc.), and am considering throwing a set of cables together tomorrow.
   
  Is it a case of if I hear a difference it's because I want to hear a difference, or is there really going to be an audible benefit to going with_ better_ cables?
   
  What say you?


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## revolink24

No.
   
  See sig. If you ever think you should get a cable, let your ears decide FIRST at a meet or something. Oh, and try asking around in the DIY forum, where values are better, the people there are always helpful and I'm sure you could get someone to build one. I'm not sure what you mean by throw one together, if you mean you can build one yourself, great! Even though I don't in expensive cable, well-built reasonably priced cables are definitely a plus to me.


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## Uncle Erik

No.

 I owned both the HD-600 and HD-650. Along the way, I picked up a Cardas and a Blue Dragon cable. I used both on both cans as well as swapped around the stock cables. There was no difference between the four cables. I have some test equipment, too, and was not able to measure any difference.

 If you want to roll your own cable, go for it. There's nothing wrong with experimentation and it would be a good experience to build one. If you find no difference, I'm sure someone would buy it from you.


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## leeperry

all the cables sound different, never too late to find out.


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## volume

The cable sound different, but its something that instruments may not be able to measure,its one of those things,different does not mean better,there are trade offs.


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## kingtz

Here we go again...


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## beeman458

What say you?
   




   
  What say I?  So far, I've changed out the computer power supply unit to compliment the new ASUS STX sound card.  Both changes made a difference.
   
  I changed out the power supply cord and it made a big difference..... in that it sucked the life out of the music and I went back to my cheap azzzz computer power supply cord.
   
  Currently, I'm awaiting the arrival of some custom made Double Helix Cables for my HD-650.
   
*Is it a case of if I hear a difference it's because I want to hear a difference, or is there really going to be an audible benefit to going with better cables?*
   
  What do you care how you get there?
   
  Time will tell if the new cables ordered will make a good, bad or neutral difference.  But I will know in a few days as I was e-mailed images of the new cables today.  Oh, looky, a picture.


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## danzal

Ok guys, I think I get the picture. I don't need experience building up cables - have plenty of that already soldering up concentric 16-pin connectors and various hifi interconnects in the past.
   
  As it seems that there's a ~50/50 split, I think I'll save time by not doing anything, and saying this before the thread gets out of hand.
   
  It seems that there are some in this thread already that share my rationale, and I think that I will only come to the same conclusions as them about cable rolling making an imperceptible difference to the sound. That's not to say that others are wrong though, far from it. Horses for courses and all that boat-floatery stuff.


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## beeman458

Well, if rolling cables doesn't float your boat, there's always OpAmp rolling.
   
  And remember kiddies, OpAmp rolling has the scientific community's seal of approval.  Personally, I'm an EQ kind of guy.


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## KnightK

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Well, if rolling cables doesn't float your boat, there's always OpAmp rolling.


 

 Or tube rolling. Fun to the max...


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## PFKMan23

What's your source/amp? I'd start there first.


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## MuuMuu

Buy from a place w/ a return policy.  Ignore all their claims as to a "burnin period."  (if you want to believe in it, be my guest)  Figure out if you like it, and if you don't, immediately return item.  Best case your mind will think it sounds better and you'll be happier, worst case you lost out on shipping costs.
   
  I bought balanced protector cables and a interconnect from Moon Audio; the protector connection I kept, the interconnect I returned in favor of a more solidly built Monoprice cable.  YMMV.


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## Bostonears

I'm firmly in the camp that says headphone cables do indeed make a difference.
   
  However:
  -  The magnitude of the changes is typically overstated by manufacturers, reviewers, owners, etc.. Expect subtle changes, not dramatic ones.
  -  The price of a cable is not necessarily a good indicator of the change in sound. I've DIYed some headphone cables of my own at dirt cheap prices with off-the-shelf wire that sounded much better than stock cable.
  -  The changes you hear from different cables may be dependent on the amp you're using. That is, with a given headphone, a new cable may sound good with one amp, but not so good with another amp. And the better your amp (and upstream source), the more likely you are to be able to hear changes in cables.
  -  A change in sound quality is not always for the better, particularly if you're dealing with a top-of-the-line headphone that already has a decent stock cable.
   
  On that last point, the stock cable of the Sennheiser HD580/600/650 is relatively low grade, so it should be easy to replace (aftermarket or DIY) with one that will improve the sound. At least in theory. In practice, it wasn't that easy. Over the years, I've tried three different cables with both HD580 and 650 phones, including Cardas, Clou, and Equinox. The Clou had little effect that I could hear. The Cardas sounded different, but not necessarily better than stock (a lateral change). The Equinox was the only one that clearly sounded better than the stock cable with my amplifiers.
   
  At least with the Sennheiser cable connectors, it's easy to A-B cables by swapping them in a matter of seconds. With phones that are hardwired, it's much more difficult to assess the impact of cable changes.


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## freakmax

If the cable costs as much as headphone, I wouldnt get it.


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## Max F

I don't know, but the price some charge for cables is ridiculous.


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## alexxfloo

You should read this thread, really dude, u should. http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/503846/all-music-lovers-should-take-a-look#post_6804283
  Beeman u old friend i find you everywhere with your cables and beer.


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## Bullseye

Just check my sig


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## dahan

You should try it yourself, if you don't like it you can always return it to get full refund. I have a hd650; I replaced the stock cable with a Zu2. I used to be skeptic about cables, but I can hear a difference between 2 cables, and I think the update is totally worth it. IMO, if you really like your hd600/650 you would not mind to spend extra dollars to make it sound better.


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## revolink24

Quote: 





bullseye said:


> Just check my sig


 

 Mine has a good resource as well.


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## alexxfloo

Quote: 





bullseye said:


> Just check my sig


 

 It seems we have the same hate towards exotic cable manufacturers. I'll provide the link to your translation in my own thread.


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## daltonlanny

The Stefan Audio Art Equinox made an easily noticeable improvement over the stock Sennheiser HD650 cable on my Sennheiser HD650. I could quite easily hear the improvements. Better soundstaging, more clarity in the mids and highs, and no grain at all compared to the stock cable. The only area that did not really change or improve to me was in the bass.
  I always listen to my 650's with the Equinox. I cannot bear to listen to them with the stock cable after hearing the Equinox.
  Not so with the Cardas cable. It was different with the Cardas but not really better, IMHO.


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## Bostonears

daltonlanny said:


> The Stefan Audio Art Equinox made an easily noticeable improvement over the stock Sennheiser HD650 cable on my Sennheiser HD650. I could quite easily hear the improvements. Better soundstaging, more clarity in the mids and highs, and no grain at all compared to the stock cable. The only area that did not really change or improve to me was in the bass.
> I always listen to my 650's with the Equinox. I cannot bear to listen to them with the stock cable after hearing the Equinox.
> Not so with the Cardas cable. It was different with the Cardas but not really better, IMHO.


 
   
  Interesting that daltonlanny's impressions of both the Cardas and Equinox cables match my impressions. Doesn't seem likely if there were no audible difference at all between cables. (By the way, I had expected the Cardas cable to sound better than it did, so I don't see how my perception could have been caused by expectations. Similarly, I hadn't expected the Equinox to sound as good as it did.)
   
  Anyone who says that all headphone cables sound alike should listen with an Equinox cable. (You can try one at a meet, or perhaps buy a used one and resell it if you don't like it.)  You may or may not prefer the sound of the Equinox, but you should easily be able to hear a difference from the stock Sennheiser cable.


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## revolink24

And interesting considering SAA is also the company that can ruin your balanced amp AND K702s with their balanced cable.
   
  What a load of tosh stefan puts out.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/476358/balanced-k702-how-does-saa-do-it


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## beeman458

*Elexxfloo wrote:*
   
*Beeman u old friend i find you everywhere with your cables and beer.*
   
*




*
   
  Ya gotta love dat beer.


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## JoetheArachnid

The main problem I see with cables is the consistency required to get any kind of result. If any part of the chain is not made of platinum wire, then there's no point in using that wire. And I'm guessing that not many amp interiors are wired up that way either. I don't see how a super-wired headphone will get over all those nasty steel resistor and capacitor connectors inside your amp of choice.
  Power supplies do make a difference: a steady, even power supply will give a more consistent sound. A power cable will not affect how the power supply works.
  The only experience I've had with cables making a difference is in unbelievably poor, cheap RCA connectors totally distorting the sound.


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## Uncle Erik

Quote: 





max f said:


> I don't know, but the price some charge for cables is ridiculous.


 

 Oh, but it's the price that makes them sound so good!  Why, a $10 cable made from the same materials as a $500 cable just isn't the same.

 The $10 cable will sound like a $10 cable and the $500 cable will sound like a $500 cable, even if they're made of the same thing.
   
Happens all the time with wine; audio is no different.


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## ianmedium

Whilst I have heard definate improvements with upgraded cables I have to say even though there is an improvement it is still not worth what some cables cost, HD650 around $550, upgrade the cable from a popular maker here $350.
   
  For me I would rather spend that extra on an even better headphone as see a greater improvement that get a slight improvement for a huge amount of money.. I mean come on, all that for a bit of twined copper that it seems is as pure as the stuff Sennheiser include as stock. I am not saying there is no difference, just it is not  three hundred odd bucks difference!


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> The main problem I see with cables is the consistency required to get any kind of result. If any part of the chain is not made of platinum wire, then there's no point in using that wire. And I'm guessing that not many amp interiors are wired up that way either. I don't see how a super-wired headphone will get over all those nasty steel resistor and capacitor connectors inside your amp of choice.
> Power supplies do make a difference: a steady, even power supply will give a more consistent sound. A power cable will not affect how the power supply works.
> The only experience I've had with cables making a difference is in unbelievably poor, cheap RCA connectors totally distorting the sound.


 
  I can't take issue with your reasoning, but I would suggest that you make the effort to listen for yourself.  If you hear no difference, you've just saved a pile of money with no regrets.  If you do hear a difference and like it, then even though it will cost you money, you'll have better sound for it.


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Oh, but it's the price that makes them sound so good!  Why, a $10 cable made from the same materials as a $500 cable just isn't the same.
> 
> The $10 cable will sound like a $10 cable and the $500 cable will sound like a $500 cable, even if they're made of the same thing.
> 
> Happens all the time with wine; audio is no different.


 
  Interesting, I hadn't noticed that.  I quite like it the other way round, the $10 cable that sounds like a $500 cable.


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## Gu Sensei

My early contact with Head Fi led me to believe in significant improvements from cable changes with the HD650s. I went from stock to zu mobius to saa equinox and could never identify any distinct change. I was expecting and wanting change but never found it. Being more well-read, I feel a bit suckered and am done with cable 'upgrades.' I have yet to read a compelling explanation why a cable itself makes a difference. I have zero background in electronics but have encountered plenty of logical, understandable arguments as to why it should not. The personal testimonies can be hard to ignore, but there are plenty of good arguments to explain why people perceive changes when they do not in fact exist. We do not quite have as much conscious control over our minds as we would like to believe. There is plenty of genuinely sincere personal testimony related to psychic powers, faith healing, fortune telling, alien sightings, ghost encounters, etc. but that does not mean we should necessarily accept all of those positions as the truth. A typical recommendation might be 'listen for yourself' but I would suggest do it wearing a blindfold with a helpful friend. Otherwise, you might not be hearing what you think you are hearing.


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## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> I can't take issue with your reasoning, but I would suggest that you make the effort to listen for yourself.  If you hear no difference, you've just saved a pile of money with no regrets.  If you do hear a difference and like it, then even though it will cost you money, you'll have better sound for it.


 

 I think of it like a waterslide - you can slide down with absolutely clean, distilled water for almost the whole length, but if there's even one part of it that's dirty then you won't be totally clean coming out the other end. It's probably just the scientist on me trying to see things from a technical point of view, and I can't say what difference it'll make to others.
   
  Maybe when I've built up a rig that can only be improved by things like interconnects then I'll consider some better wires, but as of now I don't see the point in spending as much on a pair of headphones again on a cable that makes a subtle or non-existent difference. The thing is that so many accepted traits of audiophilia are mystical anyway (burn-in?) that science has also shown makes little or no difference are well-supported by the majority of people here.
  I don't think buying quality ICs is bad if you've got the cash to spare, but I do have a problem with people being scammed into thinking that a $700 cable will be vastly better than a $20 cable. Then again, some people are happy with $250 headphones and some spent $5,000, with also perhaps not as much difference as you'd hope in between.
   
  ...This hobby is unfathomable, but I think that's why it's so interesting. I still call for a blind cable test


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## mr. nice

NO. save your money on getting a different set of headphones or upgrading your DAC/AMP etc......


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## vinnievidi

Quote: 





mr. nice said:


> NO. save your money on getting a different set of headphones or upgrading your DAC/AMP etc......


 
  I agree.  Out of curiosity, I picked up a Cardas cable at the same time I purchased a pair of HD650s.  Using a KICAS Caliente amp, my iMac (audio out jack), and my Denon receiver (which is no slouch) as sources, I did a lot of switching back-and-forth between the stock cable and the Cardas to see if I noticed a difference.  To tell the truth, I didn't.  If there was any difference at all, it was so minor that it didn't warrant the expense of the cable.
   
  Maybe you will hear differences, I don't know.  But I would imagine that if you want to truly hear leaps and bounds in sound quality improvement (however you want to measure that), your money is better spent on amplification.


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## kwkarth

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> I think of it like a waterslide - you can slide down with absolutely clean, distilled water for almost the whole length, but if there's even one part of it that's dirty then you won't be totally clean coming out the other end. It's probably just the scientist on me trying to see things from a technical point of view, and I can't say what difference it'll make to others.
> 
> Maybe when I've built up a rig that can only be improved by things like interconnects then I'll consider some better wires, but as of now I don't see the point in spending as much on a pair of headphones again on a cable that makes a subtle or non-existent difference. The thing is that so many accepted traits of audiophilia are mystical anyway (burn-in?) that science has also shown makes little or no difference are well-supported by the majority of people here.
> I don't think buying quality ICs is bad if you've got the cash to spare, but I do have a problem with people being scammed into thinking that a $700 cable will be vastly better than a $20 cable. Then again, some people are happy with $250 headphones and some spent $5,000, with also perhaps not as much difference as you'd hope in between.
> ...This hobby is unfathomable, but I think that's why it's so interesting. I still call for a blind cable test


 

 I think this is very reasonable!  Good post!


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## JoetheArachnid

Thanks! I try to think reasonably about this kind of thing.


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## krmathis

No! Since you question if it is worth it, which imply to me that you are not be ready yet. Or else you would have jumped right in..


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## Bullseye

Go ahead! Hope it helps!
  
  Quote: 





alexxfloo said:


> It seems we have the same hate towards exotic cable manufacturers. I'll provide the link to your translation in my own thread.


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## kostalex

Recabling may have a sense. Here is my story: I was not happy with my HD650 and tried some SPC (Navships) and OFC (Mogami) recabling. I did not like new cables also, both were stiff and bulky, and SPC did not sound good to me. Then I measured my stock cable and... surprise! The cable resistance were pretty different for L and R channels. I assumed that cable is out of order and tried to cure it. I cut the TRS connector off, measured again and found equal resistance, something like 1.5 Ohms. I soldered new connector, listened and was finally satisfied with both SQ and convenience. So the problem was somewhere inside the stock connector.
   
  I do believe that my case is not unique. Probably few bad cables were produced (or are still produced) and people really got SQ benefits from the recabling.
   
  Would I buy expensive cables if I had right cable from the beginning? No, I'd better invest to the source/amp. I would probably get some expensive cables up to $500 when my source/AMP will reach $5000 mark. 10% for the cables seems reasonable to me.
   
  I am still a bit worried with my cable. I am not sure whether 1.5 Ohm is a right resistance for 7 ft cable (I shortened it, it was 10 ft). If it is too much resistance, then there are probably some more "bugs", like bad soldering or anything else. *Can anybody advice me on the regular resistance?*


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## aimlink

I've had issues with connectors and do feel that this may have a lot to do with some instances of cable upgrades making a lot of difference.


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## Shike

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> And remember kiddies, OpAmp rolling has the scientific community's seal of approval.  Personally, I'm an EQ kind of guy.


 
   
  It hardly has everyone's seal of approval.  Sticking an opamp in a circuit that wasn't built for it can be a very bad idea.  Oscillation, putting out too much DC, poor performance in actual audio range, etc.
   
  An opamp is a bunch of transistors bundled into one chip.  Would you randomly open an amp and start guessing what transistors to play with and what to replace them with?  Would you say your transistor guesses are actually better than the company that built the amp within a specific spec selected?
   
  Just because you can throw a chip in and it makes sound doesn't mean it's making the right ones, and unless you have a scope to confirm it is then I have a hard time taking ones word for it.  Which then we have the question of whether there's any actual measurable improvement or if the results are placebo or not (let's avoid getting into that one again though).
   
  Making a "bad" (which I use tongue in cheek) opamp sound good is difficult, but making a "good" opamp sound bad is remarkably easy (as is destroying gear in the process).  Unless you're engineering the circuit for the chip you are rolling you're much more likely to accomplish the latter.


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## Prog Rock Man

No one, and I will be happy to be corrected on this, has come forward after a blind test and said that they could reliably tell the difference between stock and bespoke headphone cables.
   
  So buy the cable if you like its looks, get a more suitable length for your needs and are happy to know any improvement is all in the mind.


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## Uncle Erik

kostalex, the idea that the amount you spend on cables as a value of your total rig is not a good idea. This is the kind of thing that marketers dream about. If you have a $500,000 house, does that mean you should buy a $500 lightbulb for it? No, the 50 cent lightbulbs are just fine. As are five cent nails for the walls. Just because a $50,000 house has the same nails or lightbulbs doesn't lessen their functionality. You have to look at what something actually does, not what someone is charging for it.

That also goes to the valuation of audio gear itself. Are all $5,000 amplifiers the same? Who sets the price? Is something that originally cost $5,000 ten years ago that you paid $1,000 for still a $5,000 item? Or does it now sound like a $1,000 item? Suppose someone marks up an item to $10,000, but gives you a discounted price of $2,000. Would that sound like a $2,000 item or a $10,000 item? Dollar valuations are so slippery that there is no other choice than to be objective.

You have to objectively look at the circuit, construction, parts used, measured performance, and so on. When you become objective, you can both maximize performance and minimize cost. Some people like to maximize cost, which turns the item into a status symbol, which has nothing to do with actual performance. When you use actual performance as a measure, you can get excellent results at a low cost. If status interests you, the people who understand audio will respect you for making discriminating choices based on what actually works. The status seekers might not think much of you, but who cares?

Shike, I completely agree about opamps. Unless you have the technical skill to understand or design an amp, second-guessing the engineer who designed it is a bad idea. People like to pretend that they have some kind of magic, secret knowledge to "improve" things because the factory was "cheap" or something. However, if you don't know what you're doing, you end up with unintended consequences.


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## Bostonears

shike said:


> It hardly has everyone's seal of approval.  Sticking an opamp in a circuit that wasn't built for it can be a very bad idea.  Oscillation, putting out too much DC, poor performance in actual audio range, etc.
> 
> An opamp is a bunch of transistors bundled into one chip.  Would you randomly open an amp and start guessing what transistors to play with and what to replace them with?  Would you say your transistor guesses are actually better than the company that built the amp within a specific spec selected?
> 
> ...


 

 In general, you are correct. But sometimes, an engineer chooses an opamp to meet a bill of materials cost target or parts-on-hand requirement, knowing full well that other opamps would perform better in the same circuit.


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## Uncle Erik

Bostonears, parts prices aren't that relevant in an amp. Labor and overhead are much larger considerations, so an extra dollar or two usually doesn't make a difference, especially when headphone amp production is so low that they're practically customs.

As for parts on hand, that would mean that the amp was designed to maximize the part on hand. It's entirely possible that the circuit would have to be tweaked to optimize the circuit for a different chip.


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## leeperry

bostonears said:


> In general, you are correct. But sometimes, an engineer chooses an opamp to meet a bill of materials cost target or parts-on-hand requirement, knowing full well that other opamps would perform better in the same circuit.


 
   
  The Benchmark DAC-1 is full of 5532 on its HP out and 4562 as DAC LPF....why, you ask? because many manufacturers believe that all the opamps sound the same. But when you read reviews of the DAC-1 many ppl call it harsh and unrefined...exactly what you should expect from a 4562/5532 combination.
   
  Many opamps are unity gain stable, they will play nice if the design has decoupling caps to avoid oscillation...but this is a sterile debate, some ppl on this forum will keep telling you until the end of days that rolling opamps is BAAAAAD as they have made up their own truth by now. A chip such as LT1028 or OPA637 is pretty hopeless, you can't roll it....because the former is too damn cranky and both aren't unity gain stable anyway.
   
  IME(and Mad Max/Andrea's as well), some cables can change the sound more than opamps...but yeah, I'm talking about real world experience on pretty transparent headphones...not theoritical chitchat on a public board.


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## Ceja-Blu

I'm sure the reply line is a traffic jam when it comes to the issue of cables.
  I'm a tested and veteran cable skeptic myself.  Work long enough in a studio and doing critical live field recording, you certainly want reliable and solidly built cables.
   
  The only reason I have replaced the HD600 and the HD 650 stock cables is because
  the connectors failed often enough during session work. It became a nuisance
  to break the session while I yanked the headset off and squeezed the pins back into place so they resumed contact.
  The personal caveat has always been with Sennheiser:  How can you sell such an expensive headphone with such a flawed cable connection?  What gives?
   
  As for enhancing or improving the sound of your Senns  with a $250 cable?....Pulheeeze.
  Electricity, conductivity, and signal path purity are NOT going to change with your 300 plus- clam upgrade.  We build our own cables from 6ft. mogamis with neutrik connectors and the cardas end pins for a fraction of the cost and the "sound" is indistinguishable from the boutique miracle cable selling for the cost of your cans.
  It is possible that some cans will improve with certain types of cable combinations depending on the impedance of your cable, but these delicate tolerances are still  subjective.
   
  That said,  well-crafted cables have some measurable advantages and a skilled cable builder can make you a palpably superior physical product than that whimpy spaghetti noodle of a cable that comes with the HD600:
  primarily, the quality of the copper strand assembly and its shielding with components that will minimize interference whether, magnetic or IRF.  Secondarily, the quality of the casing, joint sleeves and soldering skill can make a cable sturdier and better resistant to constant movement and fraying or tearing. One wants a cable that can take the real life, mano a mano handling, and storing every trip. No fraying, twisting, signal drop, or cable fold failure.
  Know what I mean?
   
  Save a few bills, and buy some killer recordings on CD.  Brew a cup of Colombian and put your legs up, turn on the DAC and pump the gain where you will start to cry with emotion as the music washes over you like a tsunami and you are wiggling your hands and toes to the groove of the music.  That's the MUSIC, not the cable.
   
  Happy morning to ya.


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## Prog Rock Man

Ceja-Blu. Great post. I wish I had found about pro-audio years ago. The quality of the cable is just s good, if not better than more 'audiophile' brands and the results are, as you say, the same for much less money. My DIY, pro-audio based cables with neutrik, switchcraft, Van Damme and Proel give far better value for money.


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## Uncle Erik

Completely agree, Ceja-Blu.  This is the same reason I bought Blue Jeans cables - their cables are tough enough to hold up in professional environments.  That's worth the extra cost.


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## kostalex

I meant up to $500 for cables in $5000 rig is OK to me. I am very practical person, but probably I can learn something new from you. Well, would you like to recommend me some $5000 rig and suggest cables for it?
   
  My source is a PC, cans of interest are HD800, LCD-2, HE-5, SR-007.
   
  Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> kostalex, the idea that the amount you spend on cables as a value of your total rig is not a good idea.


 

  Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Completely agree, Ceja-Blu.  This is the same reason I bought Blue Jeans cables - their cables are tough enough to hold up in professional environments.  That's worth the extra cost.


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## Uncle Erik

I'd just go with Blue Jeans or similar (including DIY) for any level of system. Well-built cables would serve an inexpensive system, too. I'm going to use them on my "final" (hopefully) system that will have an Ultrapath preamp connected to an ATI power amp connected to Orion+ speakers. It'll cost me about $10,000 to get there, but if you were buying that on commission, it'd probably be closer to $25,000. I'm not sure how to value that, but a well-driven Orion+ setup is one of the best there is. I also use the Blue Jeans with the Zana, Moth and Orbe. Maybe not the best, but I think it's respectable. I'll be adding a Dynamid, Dynamight, Ciuffoli SESS (417A) and a few other amps to the mix when the workshop is ready in a few months. I think that once you have cables that are well made, you can stop worrying about them and, instead, focus on the other gear and music.


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## kostalex

So how much will cost you BlueJeans for your "final" rig?


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## Uncle Erik

I think maybe $200-$300, but that will be for several cables because I'll have five or six sources.


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## kostalex

I have to check these BlueJeans cables, thanks for the tip.


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## BIG POPPA

Blue Jeans will only put on a 1/4 TRS and strip back the insulation to your spec's. They don't put on the Senn Pins. They will make a AKG mini xlr cable though. They are a few minutes from my house.


----------



## spagetka

[size=11pt]Well, I have find the HD650 weak compared to the K701 (of course not in the bass section). Transformation HD650 to the K701 with the same amount of bass would be nice... [/size]
[size=11pt] [/size]
[size=11pt]So searched for some cable and found Zu mobius (MK2).[/size]
[size=11pt] [/size]
[size=11pt]Absolutely fantastic cable that makes HD650 really superior to the K701 - more detail, air, focus, bass,... Yes, it is $400 for 10ft cable, but sound is pretty amazing.[/size]
[size=11pt] [/size]


----------



## theearbone

Commercial upgrade headphone cables are the worst value upgrade available, it should be the last thing throw money at, power supply upgrades for the headphone amp or digital source will have  much bigger effect for almost all solid state devices( most use low voltages and basic voltage regulators that are easily improved upon.) 
   
  I doubt that a cable of basic single core hook up wire and those Cardas plugs would be any worse than an overly thick $200 boutique cable.


----------



## Max F

Quote: 





spagetka said:


> [size=11pt]Well, I have find the HD650 weak compared to the K701 (of course not in the bass section). Transformation HD650 to the K701 with the same amount of bass would be nice... [/size]
> [size=11pt] [/size]
> [size=11pt]So searched for some cable and found Zu mobius (MK2).[/size]
> [size=11pt] [/size]
> ...


 

 Are you for real?


----------



## kostalex

Why doubt? For $400 it has to sound amazing!


----------



## spagetka

Quote: 





max f said:


> Are you for real?


 


  [size=11pt][size=11pt][/size][/size]
  [size=11pt] [/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]Hm, I spent 2 month listening both headphones (AKG K701 and HD 650) through a lot of genres. The goal is to find out how is the sound signature of HD650. A lot of great comments help me on this journey and finally I could exactly imagine which cable will do it "right" (from my point of view).[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt] [/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]After I plugged Zu2 cable in the HD650 right out of the box (no burning process), it takes me approximately 10s to recognize the big difference between K701 and HD650 (Zu2) (stock is out of the this game for sure).[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]I would say – if the detail is easy listenable via Zu2 on HD650, you can be really focused on that particular part but still it is hard to listen to it via K701. Not to mention the change of color of the instruments, soundstage, ...[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt] [/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]CD/SACD[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt] [/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]- The Body Acoustic (Randy Brecker, Bob Mintzer, Andy Gonzalez, Giovanni Hidalgo, David Chesky)[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]- Animals,The Division Bell (Pink Floyd)[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]- Swing Live (Bucky Pizzarelli)[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]- Spiritchaser (Dead Can Dance)[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]- Throw Down Your Heart, Tales from the Acoustic Planet, Vol. 3: Africa Sessions (Fleck, Béla)[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]- Heavy Horses (Jethro Tull)[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt][size=11pt]- ...[/size][/size]
  [size=11pt] [/size]


----------



## JoetheArachnid

I don't think I could ever spend MORE on a cable than I did on the headphone itself. I mean, you're paying as much again and not even for an upgrade to the bit that actually makes the noise. If I ever do get into cables, I will always go DIY. Looking at prices the other day, I could easily knock up a silver interconnect for ~£30, whereas the cheapest commercial ones I've seen are around the $200 mark.
   
  Mind you, having laid down $400 for a cable, I'd probably _want_ it to sound better so much that it would... Placebo FTW.


----------



## Bricolage

For durability yes, for sound no


----------



## spagetka

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> I don't think I could ever spend MORE on a cable than I did on the headphone itself. I mean, you're paying as much again and not even for an upgrade to the bit that actually makes the noise. If I ever do get into cables, I will always go DIY. Looking at prices the other day, I could easily knock up a silver interconnect for ~£30, whereas the cheapest commercial ones I've seen are around the $200 mark.
> 
> Mind you, having laid down $400 for a cable, I'd probably _want_ it to sound better so much that it would... Placebo FTW.


 
   
  Quote: 





bricolage said:


> For durability yes, for sound no


 

 I'm a very critical person. The only reliable test for me is blind test.
   
  PS: This thread can really help http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/152950/sennheiser-hd650-cable-shootout-stock-zu-equinox-and-grace-five-two


----------



## p a t r i c k

In answer to the OP's question:
   
  "Is It Really Worth 'Upgrading' Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 Cables?"
   
  I think in all likelihood, no.
   
  In another "cable" thread I became very quickly labelled "anti-cable" because I was writing about auto-suggestion.
   
  I don't dispute that changing cables can make a difference to sound just as changing any other component will also do so.
   
  However I think the *reported* changes are often simply the result of auto-suggestion.
   
  You will read people writing lengthy descriptions of the influence of certain cables and even prescribing different cables for different situations.
   
  These lengthy descriptions are often simply the reports of auto-suggestion.
   
  The impact of auto-suggestion when listening to hi fi stuff is absolutely huge and massively underestimated by most people.
   
  Auto-suggestion impacts on all equipment listening of course, it is just that in the area of cables, I think it is at its most vivid.
   
  An interesting thing about cable retailers is that often they will describe the effects that certain cables will supposedly have on sound.
   
  "The orange one will warm up the mid-range"
   
  "The purple one will fill out the bass"
   
  "The green one will smooth out the treble".
   
  So the consumer pays often a very high price for the colour they want, plug it in and of course immediately they hear the result! They didn't think cables had much influence, but boy, now they've tried it and, yes, they got the purple one and their bass is really filled out!
   
  I think a blind listening test will very quickly reveal the truth of this.


----------



## spagetka

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> In answer to the OP's question:
> 
> "Is It Really Worth 'Upgrading' Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 Cables?"
> 
> ...


 


*Man, no auto-suggestion. Blind test.* Come to visit Prague - it is really beautiful city. We can make a deal: if you are right, I pay your ticket back to the England... If not, you will have a nice vacation and learn something new.


----------



## kostalex

You should change your nick to anti-Patrick. Patrick is famous head-fi cable guru, did not you know?


----------



## spagetka

While I was searching for informations I really hate comment which tells nothing. Only few comments are really helpful - not b*llsh*t like "well, I have not listened... but my friend's grandpa's dog did and ..."


----------



## kwkarth

I was at a friend's place yesterday and a couple of us were hanging out and one guy was listening to a couple of aftermarket cables for a headphone.  The two cables were identical except one had been made with a new, high zoot, lead free solder that contained gold, silver, and the usual complement of other stuff.  The other cable was built using a more popular, lower cost, lead free solder.
   
  After one guy had listened to the two cables, he handed the cans to me, indicating which cable was the "new" one, and I proceeded to listen.  I listened for about 15 minutes, going back and forth, and actually liked the sound of what I thought was the "old" cable better.  The imaging seemed more open and extended, the HF seemed smoother.  The new cable, seemed to have a hotter high end that, while not sibilant, didn't seen to be as transparent, effortless, and smooth, rather, almost hard and glassy.
   
  When I was telling my friend who built the cables what I had heard, he corrected me and showed me I had the cables mixed up and the one I liked better was actually the newer one using the fancy solder.  Three out of three of us that day were all hearing the same things in the same cables without knowing who was listening to what, except the guy who built the cables in the first place.
   
  I can say without a doubt, that cables do make a substantial difference in sound as long as the rest of one's system, including the source, is resolving enough in the first place, and even silly stuff like the solder used, can make subtle differences.  If, on the other hand, you can't hear any differences between one cable and another, don't worry about it.  Save your money and enjoy the music, but don't disparage those who pursue that last few percent of sonic improvement, and deem it worthwhile.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





kostalex said:


> You should change your nick to anti-Patrick. Patrick is famous head-fi cable guru, did not you know?


 

 LOL!
   
  I didn't know there is a head-fi cable guru called Patrick 
   
  I'm not "anti-cable" but the problem is that if you try to bring some perspective to this cable thing then these cable "gurus" or "faithful" or whatever they might be seem to get really weird and start accusing you of being "anti-cable".
   
  I do have a lot of cables and I get on very well with them. They are very useful things!


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





> *Man, no auto-suggestion. Blind test.* Come to visit Prague - it is really beautiful city. We can make a deal: if you are right, I pay your ticket back to the England... If not, you will have a nice vacation and learn something new.


 
   
  Well every says that Prague is beautiful and I'm sure it is not "auto-suggestion".
   
  However it is a bit out of my way.
   
  I think that it would be worthwhile to have a look at this A X B test:
   
Power Cords Test
   
  This test is extremely well carried out. In it the hugely expensive Nordost Valhalla power cords are compared with the generic power cords that came in the boxes.
   
  The system is extremely high resolution and every power cord in the system is swapped.
   
  And yet no difference at all is identifiable by the group of attentive (hi fi enthusiast) listeners.


----------



## kostalex

Quote of the month. Well said.
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> If, on the other hand, you can't hear any differences between one cable and another, don't worry about it.  Save your money and enjoy the music, but don't disparage those who pursue that last few percent of sonic improvement, and deem it worthwhile.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> The two cables were identical except one had been made with a new, high zoot, lead free solder that contained gold, silver, and the usual complement of other stuff.  The other cable was built using a more popular, lower cost, lead free solder.


 

 You are saying that in a blind test you can tell the solder used in a cable?
   
  I'm saying I don't believe it.
   
  Please note that I'm not "anti-cable" and I'm not saying that all cables sound the same.
   
  In a real blind A x B comparison I would be interested to see if you can indeed identify cables solely on the nature of the solder used.
   
  Then you write:
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> If, on the other hand, you can't hear any differences between one cable and another, don't worry about it.  Save your money and enjoy the music, but don't disparage those who pursue that last few percent of sonic improvement, and deem it worthwhile.


 
   
  I can honestly say that I cannot hear the difference in cables which are identical except for different solder.
   
  But neither can you.
   
  I've been listening to music through hi fi's of many different sorts since the 70s.
   
  I've seen fads come and go and read many ludicrous claims, trust me.
   
  I think preventing people from wasting money on expensive cables that make, probably close to zero difference and certainly don't "improve" fidelity is a fairly good idea.


----------



## kostalex

Search for his posts/threads, they are very entertaining. BTW, he likes Valhalla especially. Here is the sample from http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/300673/k1000-with-dual-micro-mono-filament-cable-less-contact-with-conductor-more-detail:
   

  
  Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> LOL!
> I didn't know there is a head-fi cable guru called Patrick


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





spagetka said:


> While I was searching for informations I really hate comment which tells nothing. Only few comments are really helpful - not b*llsh*t like "well, I have not listened... but my friend's grandpa's dog did and ..."


 

 Hi spagetka
   
  Before I continue I will write that I am not an "all cables sound the same person". Nor am I "anti-cable".
   
  The key problem with assessing hi fi is auto-suggestion.
   
  While I believe that cables can sound different I also believe that the *reports* of cable difference are often a result of auto-suggestion.
   
  Okay to the subject which I think you have brought up of actual information about cable differences and how to quantify them scientifically.
   
  A good scientific method to quantify perceived cable differences is the blind ABX test.
   
  You would think that given the vast amount of money the cable making companies ask for their cables surely they have carried these out?
   
  How can a company ask for 1,000 $/£/€ or more for a cable without carrying out this simple enough scientific test to ascertain if it really does represent value for money?
   
  And yet, amazingly, for many years now, no such tests have been carried out, at least not in public!
   
  Except one...
   
  And here it is:
   
Can We Hear Differences Between A/C Power Cords?
   
  In this very well carried out test of the Nordost Valhalla power cord a high resolution system has the Valhalla swapped with generic "out of the box" power cords for every components.
   
  The panel of attentive listeners are unable to detect any difference.


----------



## spagetka

Hm, but we are talking about impact of the replacement headphone cable for senn NOT the impact of the power cable.
   
  The only difference between no-name and expensive power cord  from my point of view:  DAC1 (hooked up via no-name PC) is hotter after playing let's say 1h or more.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





kostalex said:


> Search for his posts/threads, they are very entertaining. BTW, he likes Valhalla especially. Here is the sample from http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/300673/k1000-with-dual-micro-mono-filament-cable-less-contact-with-conductor-more-detail:


 

 Gosh!
   
  That is some cable Patrick has 
   
  I would search his posts but I feel I've spent enough time on this cable thing for now.
   
  I find myself writing "I am not anti-cable" and "I do believe that cables sound different" and "however I want to bring some perspective" all the time but in fact the cable voodoo faithfuls just get sort of insulting anyway.
   
  So, let them spend 100s or even 1000s of their chosen currency on these absurdities.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





spagetka said:


> Hm, but we are talking about impact of the replacement headphone cable for senn NOT the impact of the power cable.
> 
> The only difference between no-name and expensive power cord  from my point of view:  DAC1 (hooked up via no-name PC) is hotter after playing let's say 1h or more.


 

 Yes of course spagetka, it is very different.
   
  I am not saying that there is no difference between the cables for the Sennheisers.
   
  What I am saying is that the *reports* of differences are largely invalidated by auto-suggestion.
   
  That Nordost Valhalla power cord test was held by Casa Bellecci-Serinus who held it believing it would show the Nordost Valhalla did indeed have a very positive benefit.
   
  In fact Casa Bellecci-Serinus himself only got 4 out of 10 of the tests right between the Nordost Valhalla and the generic power cords.
   
  So the test illustrates the extent of *auto-suggestion*.
   
  I would absolutely love it if 100% ABX tests were carried out on cables for headphones and for interconnects etc.
   
  Then we could get a really good idea of just how much difference these things make.
   
  My own belief is that the cables make a very tiny difference but it is very difficult to hear it.
   
  Maybe I am wrong about that, but I would love to see proper ABX tests.
   
  Unfortunately the voodoo faithful see calls for ABX tests as heresy.
   
  Anyway that is enough from me on cables (honest).
   
  Enjoy music no matter what the nature/colour of the medium


----------



## kwkarth

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> You are saying that in a blind test you can tell the solder used in a cable?
> 
> I'm saying I don't believe it.


 
   
  That's perfectly ok with me if you don't believe me.  Whether or not you believe what I say, has no effect upon my enjoyment of the music I listen to, and my enjoyment of the equipment I use to bring that music to my ears.  I am secure in what I believe and perceive, you should be secure in your belief and perception as well.
   
  If either you or I were to begin to denigrate one another's perceptions, that would be unacceptable.  Enjoy your music!!  We have no more right to criticize one another's musical tastes than we do to criticize the means by which we listen.


----------



## kostalex

Oh, common, take it easy. This is a wrong patrick, he just can not afford expensive cables and cool silver / gold / cryogenic solder. This is why he told that he does not believe.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





kostalex said:


> Oh, common, take it easy. This is a wrong patrick, he just can not afford expensive cables and cool silver / gold / cryogenic solder. This is why he told that he does not believe.


 

 I can't deny that for those chasing those last vestiges of improvement from their rigs having spent into the tens of thousands cables are a worthy pursuit, even if not one that has as much effect as cans and amps/sources. However, for us mortals who can't drop £20k on an Odin speaker cable, it's much more worthwhile to use solidly made cables and concentrate on the factors that will have a much greater effect on the sound, like those mentioned above.
  I _could_ recable my rig with silver, but would it make much of a difference? Probably not. I've only got a cheap DAC, a cheap, poorly built DIY amp and a pair of distinctly mid-fi headphones. Much more return could be had by replacing all those components, and a reasonable amount of it for less than an average aftermarket cable. DIY cables would probably be cheaper, mind. I think that's the route I'll take if I ever 'do' cables - DIY cables are about 15% of the price of their professional counterparts, and they're more fun.
   
  Just my two pence. Cables are fine, but recommending expensive cables to new people with limited setups is silly.


----------



## aloksatoor

It depends on the amps power IMHO. I tried 650s with a silver dragon upgrade on lisa3 and they sound a lot more unveiled compared to stock 650 cable with the lisa. However on a beta 22, both cables sounded the same. Strange but true. Also the jenna upgrade on the 600s I have does sound better, maybe its better soldering or better furutech connectors or the cable itself I don't know.


----------



## beeman458

*aloksatoor wrote:*
   
*However on a beta 22, both cables sounded the same. Strange but true.*
   
  I'm going go with the point that our ears only have so much they can individually perceive and when you hit that point, nada.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> I can't deny that for those chasing those last vestiges of improvement from their rigs having spent into the tens of thousands cables are a worthy pursuit, even if not one that has as much effect as cans and amps/sources. However, for us mortals who can't drop £20k on an Odin speaker cable, it's much more worthwhile to use solidly made cables and concentrate on the factors that will have. *I've only got a cheap DAC, a cheap, poorly built DIY amp and a pair of distinctly mid-fi headphones.* Much more return could be had by replacing all those components, and a reasonable amount of it for less than an average aftermarket cable. DIY cables would probably be cheaper, mind. I think that's the route I'll take if I ever 'do' cables - DIY cables are about 15% of the price of their professional counterpart a much greater effect on the sound, like those mentioned above.
> I _could_ recable my rig with silver, but would it make much of a difference? Probably not. s, and they're more fun.
> 
> Just my two pence. Cables are fine, but recommending expensive cables to new people with limited setups is silly.


 

 Which has every possibility of sounding superb, if you listen to the anti-cable side and go with the blind tests. Then you will find that so much 'high end' hifi is very difficult to distinguish from mid or low end. And accessories such as cables are just not worth the money. But, if you go with the pro-cable side, you are always left with nagging doubts that there is something wrong with either or both, your ears or your kit.


----------



## eugenius

Of course it's worth it, the stock cable is very low quality. What's not worth it is paying hundreds of dollars for a cable. You can make a nice one for under 50 dollars.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





eugenius said:


> Of course it's worth it, the stock cable is very low quality. What's not worth it is paying hundreds of dollars for a cable. You can make a nice one for under 50 dollars.


 

 x2

  
   
  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> ... But, if you go with the pro-cable side, you are always left with nagging doubts that there is something wrong with either or both, your ears or your kit.


 

 You exaggerate too much.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Sorry, you are right Mad Max, I fell into the pro trap of exaggerated claims with always. I stand by nagging doubt though.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Sorry, you are right Mad Max, I fell into the pro trap of exaggerated claims with always. I stand by nagging doubt though.


 

 I doubt most "pro-cable" people are that obsessive-compulsive.  XD


----------



## kostalex

x3.
   
  It is the cost of Cardas forks, Neutrik 1/4" plug and piece of Mogami cable.

  
  Quote: 





eugenius said:


> Of course it's worth it, the stock cable is very low quality. What's not worth it is paying hundreds of dollars for a cable. You can make a nice one for under 50 dollars.


----------



## beeman458

-1
   
  Why?  I don't want to make my own cables.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





mad max said:


> I doubt most "pro-cable" people are that obsessive-compulsive.  XD


 

 Oh, I am sure that they are.....


----------



## warp08

I have ordered Whiplash TWag Elite replacement cables for all my dynamic Sennheisers (HD600/650/800), with the biggest--and I mean enormous--improvement experienced on the HD600/650s.  Wrote up a review on that (Duel of the Xes) in my sig block.
   
  Since the review I have upgraded my amps and ICs using the same cables so the synergy is even better.  I had another Head-Fi'er over to visit and when he heard them for the first time (after experiencing them in stock form) his jaw dropped.  He said these cables have completely elevated the sound signature of the cans to the point were they could be compared to reference cans costing 2-3 times their price in terms of SQ, if not build quality and comfort.
   
  But these cables retail around $425 depending on termination and length.  I suppose you get what you pay for in this case.


----------



## logwed

Quote: 





warp08 said:


> I have ordered Whiplash TWag Elite replacement cables for all my dynamic Sennheisers (HD600/650/800), with the biggest--and I mean enormous--improvement experienced on the HD600/650s.  Wrote up a review on that (Duel of the Xes) in my sig block.
> 
> Since the review I have upgraded my amps and ICs using the same cables so the synergy is even better.  I had another Head-Fi'er over to visit and when he heard them for the first time (after experiencing them in stock form) his jaw dropped.  He said these cables have completely elevated the sound signature of the cans to the point were they could be compared to reference cans costing 2-3 times their price in terms of SQ, if not build quality and comfort.
> 
> But these cables retail around $425 depending on termination and length.  I suppose you get what you pay for in this case.


 

 So, you could basically drop the price of a T1 on your HD650s+cable, *OR you could just get the T1.*


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Warp08, great write up and pictures in the Duel of the X-es Review. It is clear you are very passionate about the cables, too passionate to be able to truly be able to attribute any improvement to the actual cables themselves IMHO. Sorry, getting so enthused is asking to be convinced by psychoacoustics and placebo.
   
  I understand how balanced cables can reduce noise and raise volume over an unbalanced cable, but my stock AKG cable and my DIY one does that, with ease.
   
  Have you been blind tested to see if you can actually hear the difference?


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> -1
> 
> Why?  I don't want to make my own cables.


 

 You can always ask a fellow head-fier, like myself, to do it for you.


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> -1
> 
> Why?  I don't want to make my own cables.


 

 Worst excuse ever. You want to spend 400% more because you can't be bothered to order all the parts separately and spend 20 minutes with a soldering iron?


----------



## beeman458

*Worst excuse ever. You want to spend 400% more because you can't be bothered to order all the parts separately and spend 20 minutes with a soldering iron?*
   
  Yep.
   
  I also pay people to repair our automobiles and the home.
   
  ???


----------



## Caphead78

Is there a good guide somewhere for making a headphone cable or interconnects? I am interested in this route but don't know how to do it (yes I have searched, I haven't found a thorough one though).
  
  Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> Worst excuse ever. You want to spend 400% more because you can't be bothered to order all the parts separately and spend 20 minutes with a soldering iron?


----------



## JoetheArachnid

Quote: 





caphead78 said:


> Is there a good guide somewhere for making a headphone cable or interconnects? I am interested in this route but don't know how to do it (yes I have searched, I haven't found a thorough one though).


 

 I don't really see how it's hard. You buy a piece of cable (Mogami or summat), buy some connectors (Neutrik, or other), get some shrinky things to go over the connections to make it all look nice, and then you just solder the lot together using a decent iron and decent solder (silver solder?), making sure that all the wires attach to the right bits. Bada bing, bada boom. I don't have a lot of experience in this department, so maybe I'm entirely wrong.
  
  EDIT: Actually, where DOES one buy raw Mogami cable? There's like a million varieties on ther site and most of them are pre-connected instrument cables.


----------



## beeman458

*JoetheArachnid wrote:*
   
*All this proves is that you have more money than sense, or you are just impeccably lazy.*
   
  Well, I'm glad we got that mystery solved.


----------



## kostalex

Same do I. So I pay someone for the service, $50 is enough to get fancy braided and well soldered cable.
  
  Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> -1
> 
> Why?  I don't want to make my own cables.


----------



## Caphead78

Haha okay, what I really need to do is learn to solder.
  Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> I don't really see how it's hard. You buy a piece of cable (Mogami or summat), buy some connectors (Neutrik, or other), get some shrinky things to go over the connections to make it all look nice, and then you just solder the lot together using a decent iron and decent solder (silver solder?), making sure that all the wires attach to the right bits. Bada bing, bada boom. I don't have a lot of experience in this department, so maybe I'm entirely wrong.
> 
> EDIT: Actually, where DOES one buy raw Mogami cable? There's like a million varieties on ther site and most of them are pre-connected instrument cables.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





caphead78 said:


> Haha okay, what I really need to do is learn to solder.


 

 That's the spirit!  And it isn't very difficult either.


----------



## Balmoral

I've never had an opportunity to change out HP cables, but I have done so with speaker cable.  If the effects are similar then the changes would be quite noticeable to anyone that has given the associated equipment enough time be become familiar with the sound of said equipment.   Instrument separation, bass control and high end structure were the most noticeable things I found right away ( again, my experience has only been with speakers) .  I just ordered the HD650's . If after burn in and acclimation I find them to be veiled like so many here have claimed then I will be on the cable upgrade wagon as well.
   
  BOL to all!


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





caphead78 said:


> Is there a good guide somewhere for making a headphone cable or interconnects? I am interested in this route but don't know how to do it (yes I have searched, I haven't found a thorough one though).


 

 You Tube has some very good guides. That is where I got my instruction from.


----------



## eucariote

Quote: 





warp08 said:


> I have ordered Whiplash TWag Elite replacement cables for all my dynamic Sennheisers (HD600/650/800), with the biggest--and I mean enormous--improvement experienced on the HD600/650s.


 
   
  So it will be very easy for you to hear the difference between the two cables and correctly identify what you are listening to without the benefit of prior sighted knowledge.  Have a friend present the stock and upgraded cables in a random order in equal numbers for ~14 trials while you wear a blindfold (or put on from behind) and without touching the wires.  I'll do the stats for you and give your results a P value and verify that they clear statistical power criteria (all trivially easy when effects are real).  You will then have demonstrated your point,  I think for the first time in human history, to the satisfaction of us science types.


----------



## momomo6789

for what people charge to build a cable there's pretty much zero over head a corner in a house can do every thing you need a $80 soldering iron gets the job done for anything, $15 for third hand buy a few parts from anywhere solder them together and your done ohh yes and a dmm that makes a beeping noise is always sweet. copper costs 3.xx per pound cable makers charge 1xxx per pound. all i can say is most people who make cables cant solder for sh$t look at warren audio guy runed $120 xlrs like nothing that's was probably the saddest thing i have ever seen well besides buying a $120 set of xlrs that cant be any better then a $5 one. and then the guarantee that some day your $400 cable WILL turn Green if its not already green under all the pounds of sleeve they put on the cable that DOES nothing but weigh down your head. this coming from someone who builds cables i only build cables for fun and cute little low profile lods that dont get in the way b/c i felt there was a lack of them around and hated the bulky one i had made my self 
   
  if anyone needs help building a cable send me a pm and i can point you in the correct way. where to buy and pinouts.


----------



## aimlink

Just on a whim, I switched from my Silver Dragon back to the stock cable for my HD650.  Difference heard - more high end extension with the Silver Dragons.  Hmmm.  I'd really love to do a blind test to see where it takes me.
   
  I had tried switching back to the stock because I was getting annoyed with the stiffness of the Silver Dragons.  Ah well....


----------



## spagetka

Quote: 





logwed said:


> So, you could basically drop the price of a T1 on your HD650s+cable, *OR you could just get the T1.*


 

 Absolutely perfect definition!


----------



## Rick

Quote: 





momomo6789 said:


> for what people charge to build a cable there's pretty much zero over head a corner in a house can do every thing you need a $80 soldering iron gets the job done for anything, $15 for third hand buy a few parts from anywhere solder them together and your done ohh yes and a dmm that makes a beeping noise is always sweet. copper costs 3.xx per pound cable makers charge 1xxx per pound. all i can say is most people who make cables cant solder for sh$t look at warren audio guy runed $120 xlrs like nothing that's was probably the saddest thing i have ever seen well besides buying a $120 set of xlrs that cant be any better then a $5 one. and then the guarantee that some day your $400 cable WILL turn Green if its not already green under all the pounds of sleeve they put on the cable that DOES nothing but weigh down your head. this coming from someone who builds cables i only build cables for fun and cute little low profile lods that dont get in the way b/c i felt there was a lack of them around and hated the bulky one i had made my self
> 
> if anyone needs help building a cable send me a pm and i can point you in the correct way. where to buy and pinouts.


 

 That's not true for all cable manufacturers. There is a small minority of us who actually design, engineer, and contract a reputable manufacturing facility to professionally fabricate our products, and top them off with soft, flexible, extruded cable jacket. I will agree with you that hand made cables are inconsistent as far as dielectric constant, and capacitance goes, as well as the fact that "techflex" is not appealing, and nylon multifilament is a dust collector and frays from everyday normal use. 
   
  And so what? I'm the worlds worst with a soldering iron? I might as well be putting the iron to a stack of hundred dollar bills were I to ever pick one up again, haha. Hence why all of my products are assembled and terminated out of house by a team of professionals now. 
   
  Anyways, not all cable companies sell products that could be made by hand, was my only point.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Belden make cables for other companies to brand as their own and will incorporate 'directionality' into those cables, even though there own tests have found that there is such thing as 'directionality'. (Fourth paragraph down)
   
  http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2000/lampen/
   
  It is only the audiophile part of the cable industry that makes certain claims for its cables. The pro-audio, industrial etc side of the industry know that a cable will work for them or not based on known properties. Belden are happy to go along with that, even though their own test failed to establish any truth in one of those claims.
   
  Rick, how do you design a new cable? Your site states that vibration is an issue for SQ and you have insulation that stops such, so improving low frequency and extended highs. How do you measure that?  Do you do use blind testing in the design process?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Your site states that vibration is an issue for SQ and you have insulation that stops such, so improving low frequency and extended highs. How do you measure that?


 

 How do you measure nonsense?
   
  The "vibrations" referred to are phonons. Phonons are the quanta of the vibration of the crystal lattice of the conductors. Virtually all of the phonon activity in a conductor is due to the thermal energy in the conductor and that's what causes virtually all of the resistance in the conductor, i.e. the lattice vibrations reduce the mean free path of the electrons increasing resistance.
   
  Any possible effect of external acoustic vibration on phonon activity would be buried well below the thermal noise of the conductors which unless you're talking about some really high resistance conductors in the cables, will be buried well below the other broadband noise produced by the electronics.
   
  se


----------



## Prog Rock Man

It does appear that Warren Audio are just another company who take pot shots at others -
   
  "There is a small minority of us who actually design, engineer, and contract a reputable manufacturing facility to professionally fabricate our products..."
   
  and make their own claims how their cable is better, but when asked a simple question........disappear......


----------



## skeptic

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Just on a whim, I switched from my Silver Dragon back to the stock cable for my HD650.  Difference heard - more high end extension with the Silver Dragons.  Hmmm.  I'd really love to do a blind test to see where it takes me.
> 
> I had tried switching back to the stock because I was getting annoyed with the stiffness of the Silver Dragons.  Ah well....


 
   
  I'd be curious if you are still able to hear the same difference if you were to swap back and forth between these cables, in quick succession, say 50 to 100 times.
   
  I make this suggestion based on personal experience.  When I first read about Cplay, and claims that it was superior to Foobar and/or Winamp via ASIO and/or kernal streaming, I tried it (notwithstanding its god awful interface) and was immediately convinced that Cplay really was better.  Then I started to second guess myself.  To test my initial optimistic impression, I picked one acoustic song, and listened to the first 30 seconds over and over and over again, switching back and forth between Cplay and Foobar to see if I could really detect a difference.  The more times I went back and forth, the more convinced I became that I could not, in fact, distinguish any aspects of the playback, in stark contrast to my initial conclusion - and that both programs were, in fact, transporting the same unaltered bit-stream to my DAC (as they should be).
   
  I suspect the same is ultimately true of aftermarket cables.  People will hear what they want to hear unless and until they honestly take the time to question their perceptions, compare and contrast them at length, and then reevaluate their initial conclusions.  However, this raises an interesting question as to whether objective results are really that important to begin with.  Ultimately, if fancy looking, expensive aftermarket cables bring some users subjective, or even imaginary joy, in the listening process, isn't this analogous to people putting rims on their cars that in no way enhance performance, or purchasing fancy name-brand purses that have no greater utility than their generic counter-parts.  Concerns about false advertising remain relevant, but I imagine most people derive happiness from wanting and then obtaining "luxury" items that have no real objective benefit.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





skeptic said:


> I'd be curious if you are still able to hear the same difference if you were to swap back and forth between these cables, in quick succession, say 50 to 100 times.
> 
> I make this suggestion based on personal experience.  When I first read about Cplay, and claims that it was superior to Foobar and/or Winamp via ASIO and/or kernal streaming, I tried it (notwithstanding its god awful interface) and was immediately convinced that Cplay really was better.  Then I started to second guess myself.  To test my initial optimistic impression, I picked one acoustic song, and listened to the first 30 seconds over and over and over again, switching back and forth between Cplay and Foobar to see if I could really detect a difference.  The more times I went back and forth, the more convinced I became that I could not, in fact, distinguish any aspects of the playback, in stark contrast to my initial conclusion - and that both programs were, in fact, transporting the same unaltered bit-stream to my DAC (as they should be).
> 
> I suspect the same is ultimately true of aftermarket cables.  People will hear what they want to hear unless and until they honestly take the time to question their perceptions, compare and contrast them at length, and then reevaluate their initial conclusions.  However, this raises an interesting question as to whether objective results are really that important to begin with.  Ultimately, if fancy looking, expensive aftermarket cables bring some users subjective, or even imaginary joy, in the listening process, isn't this analogous to people putting rims on their cars that in no way enhance performance, or purchasing fancy name-brand purses that have no greater utility than their generic counter-parts.  Concerns about false advertising remain relevant, but I imagine most people derive happiness from wanting and then obtaining "luxury" items that have no real objective benefit.


 

 I was switching back and forth between my HD650 and Ed8s and the more I did so while comparing, the less different they sounded.  They sounded most different when I initially switched from one to the other.  This happens to me all the time and I put this one down to another effect of expectation and my mind filling in the blanks.  I'm very concerned about this phenomenon and what it would do when endlessly switching back and forth between the same track playing through two slightly different chains.
   
  A similar thing occurs when listening to my HD800's vs HD650.  I listen to the HD800's and hear a piece of detail in the bass that just hits me.  Never heard that before when listening with the HD650's, I think.  So I put on the HD650's and this time, I'm listening for it.  It's soft, but it's there.  There's a difference between detail that jumps at you and detail that you have to be listening out for since you expect it to be there.  Or worse, detail is inserted where you expect and it's not there.  It's like when you hear your phone ringing (usually when you're expecting a call) when no such thing happened.
   
  Hearing is a funny thing and though blinded testing does take away the influence of expectations and bias when one knows what he's hearing, there are still other phenomena to consider as one switchings back and forth between the two tracks trying to confirm that they've heard small differences between tonality and such... not even the presence or absence of specific sounds.... just subtle differences.
   
  I know what you mean though, but I'd be careful.  It would be better if you listened to one for a while so you get accustomed to it and then switched to the other.  This isn't about cables, but about the two players.  Again, I'm aware of blinded tests that have been done where the subject is given the cables to play with over an extended period to prevent the problems I'm relating and that still, they were unable to differentiate the cables used.
   
  Usually, when I can't hear a difference, this is immediate for me.  This has occurred for me when comparing iTunes' Player with Pure Music (simply can't hear a difference there though there are so many testimonies to the contrary), when comparing the Cardas and stock cables for the HD650, when comparing optical out to a HiFace USB to S/PDIF out, when comparing a lot of 320Kbps files to their lossless counterparts, when comparing wav to ALAC, when comparing CD rippers.  Some of these comparisons have been at significant expense to my pocket and it would have been nice to hear a difference.  It would seem that this bias isn't consistent and I do wonder why?  I'd definitely not be so firmly on the fence if things were more consistent.  I genuinely have no agenda here and wish the cables didn't make a difference at times.  It would make the whole deal a lot cheaper and less of a hassle to try and err.


----------



## skeptic

Aimlink - thank you for the thoughtful and gracious reply!  I can see that you have certainly have engaged in the sort of testing I was thinking about (albeit, not with such a short sample), and I may well give your suggestion a try by comparing and contrasting a longer cut of some appropriate song, as between the two media players I was discussing.  I don't imagine it will change my conclusion, but it will be interesting to give it a go.
   
  Do you have any theories, from a hardware perspective, as to why you would perceive a difference between the stock cable and the moon audio cable, but not between stock and cardas?  I have only skimmed the surface of the great cable debate, but it seems like these sorts of differences really should be measurable through tests like those conducted by Donald North in the DT880 thread.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





skeptic said:


> Do you have any theories, from a hardware perspective, as to why you would perceive a difference between the stock cable and the moon audio cable, but not between stock and cardas?  I have only skimmed the surface of the great cable debate, but it seems like these sorts of differences really should be measurable through tests like those conducted by Donald North in the DT880 thread.


 

 I don't know really.  It doesn't make sense discussing materials though the Moon Audio is the Silver Dragon, while the Cardas is pure copper.  I'm wondering if it could have something to do with the connector, i.e., the plug.  I don't know.  Most here would think it's just me and who knows, it probably is, since doing a blind test with headphone cables is a finicky thing.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





skeptic said:


> I'd be curious if you are still able to hear the same difference if you were to swap back and forth between these cables, in quick succession, say 50 to 100 times.
> 
> I make this suggestion based on personal experience.  When I first read about Cplay, and claims that it was superior to Foobar and/or Winamp via ASIO and/or kernal streaming, I tried it (notwithstanding its god awful interface) and was immediately convinced that Cplay really was better.  Then I started to second guess myself.  To test my initial optimistic impression, I picked one acoustic song, and listened to the first 30 seconds over and over and over again, switching back and forth between Cplay and Foobar to see if I could really detect a difference.  The more times I went back and forth, the more convinced I became that I could not, in fact, distinguish any aspects of the playback, in stark contrast to my initial conclusion - and that both programs were, in fact, transporting the same unaltered bit-stream to my DAC (as they should be).
> 
> I suspect the same is ultimately true of aftermarket cables.  People will hear what they want to hear unless and until they honestly take the time to question their perceptions, compare and contrast them at length, and then reevaluate their initial conclusions.  However, this raises an interesting question as to whether objective results are really that important to begin with.  Ultimately, if fancy looking, expensive aftermarket cables bring some users subjective, or even imaginary joy, in the listening process, isn't this analogous to people putting rims on their cars that in no way enhance performance, or purchasing fancy name-brand purses that have no greater utility than their generic counter-parts.  Concerns about false advertising remain relevant, but I imagine most people derive happiness from wanting and then obtaining "luxury" items that have no real objective benefit.


 

 Well put. My only issue with audiophile cables is the claim that there is something in the cables that makes the difference. Everything else is fine.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Belden make cables for other companies to brand as their own and will incorporate 'directionality' into those cables, even though there own tests have found that there is such thing as 'directionality'.


 


  "Incorporating directionality" means putting arrows on them


----------



## p a t r i c k

I see that one of the cable manufacturers has participated in the thread.
   
  On this web page:
   
Warren Audio Catalog
   
  Several cables are described as being the product of "exhaustive research".
   
  I would like to know what the "exhaustive research" consisted of.
   
  I would also like to know what the results of the "exhaustive research" are.


----------



## p a t r i c k

[size=medium]
  
  Quote: 





kwkarth said:


> That's perfectly ok with me if you don't believe me.  Whether or not you believe what I say, has no effect upon my enjoyment of the music I listen to, and my enjoyment of the equipment I use to bring that music to my ears.  I am secure in what I believe and perceive, you should be secure in your belief and perception as well.
> 
> If either you or I were to begin to denigrate one another's perceptions, that would be unacceptable.





   
  However, true to form for the golden ears you report the fantastic and then denigrate those who question your supposed magical hearing capabilities.
   
  You say:
   
  Quote: 





> I can say without a doubt, that cables do make a substantial difference in sound as long as the rest of one's system, including the source, is resolving enough in the first place, and even silly stuff like the solder used, can make subtle differences.  If, on the other hand, you can't hear any differences between one cable and another, don't worry about it.  Save your money and enjoy the music, but don't disparage those who pursue that last few percent of sonic improvement, and deem it worthwhile.





   
  So, those who question your experience are dismissed as being unable to hear any differences.
   
  They just don't have your superhuman powers...
   
  Let us look at what you claim:
   
   
   
  Quote: 





> The two cables were identical except one had been made with a new, high zoot, lead free solder that contained gold, silver, and the usual complement of other stuff.  The other cable was built using a more popular, lower cost, lead free solder.


 
   
  Any you say that you are able to hear this difference, the difference in the solder used.
   
  I think to make such a fantastic claim you should surely submit yourself to a properly conducted blind ABX test first?
   
  To say that you can "without doubt" hear this difference and to denigrate those who question this as "unable to hear the differences" is total humbug.
   
  If you want to live in a fantasy that is fine by me, but please don't claim it is a reality.​[/size]


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





> I suspect the same is ultimately true of aftermarket cables.  People will hear what they want to hear unless and until they honestly take the time to question their perceptions, compare and contrast them at length, and then reevaluate their initial conclusions.


 
   
  Yes I do agree skeptic, this is true of all audio stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  This applies to all people. We are all hugely open to auto-suggestion. Those of us who are skeptical, like myself, of the fantastic claims for some hi fi stuff are also prone to auto-suggestion.
   
  However the problem I see often is that the "golden ears" claim their hearing experiences are immutable!
   
  They genuinely believe that other people just can't hear what they are hearing because those poor souls just don't have the magical hearing that they have.
   
  If golden ears are to make fantastic claims and then diss those who question them then I think they should do submit themselves to blind ABX tests.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> [size=medium]double post​[/size]


----------



## p a t r i c k

double post


----------



## p a t r i c k

double post


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Something that is very clear is that threads like this, that primarily involve a debate get lots of pro-cable participation. But threads that start with a bit of science and ask for examples, don't.  Why do those who have the ability to hear differences not readily sibmit themselves to hearing and blind testing?


----------



## Rick

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> I see that one of the cable manufacturers has participated in the thread.
> 
> On this web page:
> 
> ...


 


  Research involving vibrations and how they can affect the lower end of the audio spectrum, as well as the improvements to be had when those vibrations are either eliminated, or when the conductors themselves are no longer subject to the said vibrations. We also worked closely with a team of engineers in CA, perfecting our design and calculating out the best distances between conductors, opposing signals, and shielding, to allow for lowest possible capacitance, maximum flexibility, flex strength, and ultimate flex life.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





rick said:


> Research involving vibrations and how they can affect the lower end of the audio spectrum, as well as the improvements to be had when those vibrations are either eliminated, or when the conductors themselves are no longer subject to the said vibrations.


 

 Has this research produced a paper as is normal practice ?
   
  Where can I obtain this paper?
   
  Presumably there is good evidence for your statement that vibrations (presumably mechanical) influence the signal in the cable.
   
  Cables can, of course, be microphonic, but here the flex of the cable is generating electricity and then a signal. If you don't flex the cable then there is generally no problem.
   
  In what way do mechanical vibrations affect the lower end of the spectrum?
   
   
  Quote: 





> We also worked closely with a team of engineers in CA, perfecting our design and calculating out the best distances between conductors, opposing signals, and shielding, to allow for lowest possible capacitance, maximum flexibility, flex strength, and ultimate flex life.


 
   
  I think that this information is common knowledge for any cable manufacturer.
   
  In what way have you advanced this field?
   
  Looking at the cables at your website it is impossible to reconcile the extraordinarily high prices with what is materially on offer.
   
  If you have conducted research which has advanced the science of cable manufacture then this would be understandable.
   
  Presumably the innovations then included in the cables are patented?
   
  I would like to know the patent numbers for the work you have carried out.


----------



## Rick

I'm sorry, but those papers are classified as of this time. Currently awaiting patent pending status. 
   
  As per your other questions:
   
  No it is not common knowledge, as there is nothing "common" about our design. Especially when speaking of conductor placement.
   
   
  And as per your comment on our pricing:   we have some of the lowest priced headphone cables on the market, and as far as quality is concerned they compete with some of the highest priced headphone cables on the market. So I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to, but as our customers often tell us, they are worth every penny, and then some.


----------



## Albedo

I don't see any reason for going up the price-ladder when there's Supra MBS -> http://www.jenving.se/microphn.htm for $3 pr. meter. How on earth do one justify going for something more exclusive using only science?


----------



## Rick

Everyone is welcome to their own opinions. Your best bet is to try one, and possibly find the answer to your question for yourself.
   
  Was nice talking with you, 
   
   
  Rick Warren
  Warren Audio


----------



## anetode

Quote: 





rick said:


> Research involving vibrations and how they can affect the lower end of the audio spectrum, as well as the improvements to be had when those vibrations are either eliminated, or when the conductors themselves are no longer subject to the said vibrations. We also worked closely with a team of engineers in CA, perfecting our design and calculating out the best distances between conductors, opposing signals, and shielding, to allow for lowest possible capacitance, maximum flexibility, flex strength, and ultimate flex life.


 
   
  My guess would be that this research was consulting with the cable/wire manufacturer about what product design they could offer on an efficient basis. Otherwise, I don't really see how a company the size of Warren Audio has anywhere near enough capitol to contract a team of engineers. But I'm all for patents, there are hundreds on such fascinating fields as perpetual motion machines.


----------



## Rick

Actually, it costed me (or my investor rather) roughly $20,000.


----------



## Jeff

I want to make a cable that is worse than the stock 650 cable. What materials will be terrible, yet electrically safe?


----------



## beeman458

*Jeff wrote:*
   
*I want to make a cable that is worse than the stock 650 cable. What materials will be terrible, yet electrically safe?*
   
  Use Christmas tree light wire.  Cut each of the little colored lights off and twist the bare wire together to make a complete circuit.  Cover the twists with black electrician's tape for safety.  If you wish, just screw a screw into the light socket to complete the circuit and tape the exposed screw for safety purposes.  Strip the wire ends, attach the headphone plug ends by twisting the exposed copper wire together or solder with plumber's roll solder purchased at the local plumbing center.  Cover all exposed copper again with black electrician's tape for safety.  Don't try to cut the wires to make things look pretty.  Just take the wire, lumps, glumps and all.
   
  Use of the wrong kind of solder.
   
  No shielding or fancy teflon coatings.
   
  Semi-exposed wire ends with no EMI/RFI rejection from the light connection ends.
   
  Just plain old, cheap azzzzz, thousand mile spooled, coated, stranded pair, copper wire.
   
  And probably the wrong wire gage ta boot.
   
  I don't think it can get any more *"terrible"* then that.


----------



## beeman458

*Rant on.*
   
  Not meaning to come to Rick's defense but you guys need to get a grip on what it costs to run a viable business and turn a sufficient profit to make it through each and every continuing month.  This especially applies to any company catering to niche groups.  The point, enough with the; "You charge to much for your cables!", comments.  If you think the prices are a rip, don't buy em.  If you're not buying em, then you got no dog in the hunt to complain about.  The point, if you want to complain about a company's pricing structure, then you at least have to have bought their product.  If you haven't bought their product, then you got no room to complain.  And if you continue in your whining, you're just another internet bully, hiding behind a computer monitor, trolling for the express purpose of causing others harm; liable.
   
  The prices I see on the web site link, are reasonable prices.  And if you don't like those prices, it's real simple, don't buy em and buy Monster headphone cables instead.  Oh wait, Monster doesn't make headphone cables unless for their Beats.  Or, you can keep using the cables that came with the headphones and be happy until the time arises where they need replacing and then one can choose to go OEM or DIY.  And for those who like making cables yourself so much and you think you've game, quit your day job and start a business like all the rest of us small business owners have.  Join the party.  Charge whatever you like.  Charge what you think to be a fair price for your product that will create interest and a sustaining profit and become Warren's competition.  And then, you too can pay your monthly household bills out of the profits.  Sans doing that, you're just another internet whiner.
   
*Rant off.*


----------



## googleborg

I wish companies would stop making products that have such glaring and obvious weaknesses which are so easily solved!  I mean, _*if the improvements were so good, indeed worth the cost of entire headphones in-themselves,*_ they could just swing their vastly higher purchasing power and scales of economy, labour cost, R&D, precision machining and tooling, and offer headphones with the best cables already as 'upgraded' models, or their own after-market upgrades.
   
  Are you telling me that they've not thought about this?
   
  Are you telling me it's more efficient for countless "little men" operations to do this that have to charge so much _just to make it viable_, than for the likes of Sennheiser, who could implement these improvements in such scales as to ameliorate the cost of entry by massively cutting these "viability" costs, thus lowering the barrier to entry thus increasing sales/aftermarket sales whilst maintaining profit margins.
   
  I mean if all these super expensive tweaks amounted to jack, they'd do it.


----------



## beeman458

I'm only saying in my above, if you want to complain about the price, start your own business.  Other than that, it's become nothing more then another internet whine.
   
*they could just swing their vastly higher purchasing power and scales of economy, labour cost, R&D, precision machining and tooling, and offer headphones with the best cables already as 'upgraded' models, or their own after-market upgrades.*
   
  With all due respect, I'd be willing to bet that most folks who agree with your above, aren't business owners, are against slave labor wages and are dependent on others for their livelyhood.
   
  The higher end headphone market, obviously is a niche market.  There's not much room for economy of scale to take place as not many folks want to pay four hundred dollars for a headphone set and ya gotta sell the headphones first, for there to be a market to sell upgrade products into.  And if you do want to do things cheaply, you'll find cheap labor takes place in slave wage, labor markets.  You are for a living wage and decent standard of living for workers aren't you.  And labor (cost of goods and services) get expensive real fast if you're paying workers benefits, required taxes and a $60 - $80k lifestyle to pay their taxes with.  But then again, you can go to countries for your labor where folks have to live on the floor of the manufacturing plant, with a garden hose for a shower and a hole in the floor for a toilet, open pit sanitary drains outside and sell your products for a whole lot less.
   
  I submit that Sound Science walks hand-in-hand with sound business principals.  Why?  They both need money to operate.  I won't get into the politics of funding scientific research, private Vs public and how one requires a profit and the other doesn't.  And without customers (product sales), no business is a business unless supplemented with other people's money.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Goldring get QED to make their headphone cables for the NS1000, available for £60 off Play.com. I cannot think of any other headphone maker who 'contracts out' their cables. It would be a good marketing tool.


----------



## p a t r i c k

It is my belief that these Warren Audio cables along with the other voodoo cables at extraordinarily high prices really are just laughably overpriced for what is materially on offer and that there is no actual quantifiable research into the creation of these cables.
   
  At Warren Audio website they claim that there has been "exhaustive reseach" but the answers from their representative are spurious.
   
  If Warren Audio had conducted "exhaustive research" there would be a boat load of evidence for this in terms of papers, results and patents.
   
  In fact there is nothing of the sort.
   
  Let us take the descriptions of one of the cables, this is being sold for $229.99.
   
  You can see the description here:
   
  http://www.warren-audio.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=vmj_naru.tpl&product_id=73&category_id=33&option=com_virtuemart
   
  You have to wade through endless attributes to the cable about the influence it will have on the sound, however no results from blind ABX tests are given. Surely the "exhaustive research" would have included blind ABX tests?
   
  Warren Audio claims that they have a new insulation which "flawlessly neutralizes vibrations".
   
  There is no description of this new insulation. No indication as to how the, presumably mechanical vibrations are neutralised, nor as to how that improves the sound.
   
  The funniest part comes next.
   
  Warren audio describes:
   
  "Precision planetary placement of the helically-twisted conductors"
   
  Well, the conductors for all cables with a common outer casing are in a planetary position. The very cheapest cable you could buy of this type will have planetary placement of the conductors.
   
  The process of helically twisting the conductors will not add any price to the cable as this is done automatically by a machine in seconds. Maybe the cable manufacturer could add 10 cents to the cable for a job like this.
   
  If you look into that description there is nothing in it that warrants a significant increase in the price of the cable.
   
  You could buy a perfectly good cable from an honest retailer for a fraction of the price of this nonsense and it will be just as good quality, in fact judging by the reports of some Warren Audio customers the quality of construction of an honest cable will possibly be very much better than this nonsense.
   
  My guess is that these cables actually cost 1/10th of the stated retail price to manufacture.
   
  Needless to say the "golden ears" will lap them up. They will "hear" things that are suggested to them. They like to read pseudo science nonsense, but the "golden ears" run a mile from real science with blind ABX testing which would illustrate just what they can and cannot hear.
   
  You do not have to waste time or money on this nonsense.
   
  These voodoo cables will not bring any tangible benefits to you audio system.


----------



## Albedo

I don't like it when someone refers to one review posted by a member with just a few posts before, then I get suspicious as this turns out to be a new product and going on claiming that's it patent pending and $20K research, the only thing that I'm seeing as of right now is a Red Herring.
   
  If this is flying over someones head, you can read up on Proof by Intimidation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_verbosity
   
  A headphone cable costing nearly as much as the headphone is just so over the top, but those already suffering of cognitive dissonance are at a conundrum and is the right way.. to convince others to make the same choice and burn of a load of cash?
   
  At least do a honest blind ABX-test!


----------



## Rick

As I have already stated, that information, papers, research, is all classified information until we receive confirmation of our patent pending status. 
   
  The insulation material is also classified as of now since we are the first and only company to ever use it in an audio application. 
   
  Rather bold statements for someone who has never so much as seen one of our products. We have customers who refuse to listen to their headphones unless it has one of our cables attached to it, even despite already owning cables from our competitors. 
   
  And our pricing, is at the lowest end of the headphone cable market. We even offer a 50% off discount when trading in one of our competitors cables, or one of our older model cables. Hardly "extraordinarily high prices". 
   
  Best regards,
   
   
  Rick Warren
  Warren Audio


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





rick said:


> As I have already stated, that information, papers, research, is all classified information until we receive confirmation of our patent pending status.
> 
> The insulation material is also classified as of now since we are the first and only company to ever use it in an audio application.


 

  But the "problem" described by you is one of mechanical vibration influencing the sound.
   
  Where are the results of the "extensive research"  showing the nature of this problem and how it manifests itself?
   
  I can't see how the research showing the problem exists in the first place would be "classified".
   
  In your description of the cables you use scientific-sounding language to describe the mundane. Things that are of very little consequence with regard to manufacturing costs.
   
  There is nothing at all described in the manufacture of these cables that warrants a high price.
   
  The only thing seems to be this "exhaustive research" for which the results are "classified".
   
  Writing generally, the voodoo cable market is a massive rip off.
   
  Cables are routinely sold for ten times their manufacturing price.
   
  The adoring and idiotic "golden ears" lap them up.
   
  I suggest that people avoid voodoo cable companies.
   
  Buy from companies that do not make spurious claims about "exhaustive research".
   
  Do not buy from companies that describe mundane manufacturing processes in pseudo-scientific language.


----------



## beeman458

*Albedo wrote:*
   
*A headphone cable costing nearly as much as the headphone is just so over the top,...*
   
  Albedo (or others), since you're not buying them, how's it over the top?  How much do you think it costs to run a business in your neighborhood?  Remember, as an employer, you're expected to pay employees a living wage that allows for food, rent, utilities, home maintenance, transportation, taxes, education, child care above health care, government labor regulations, training, vacations and insurance; a lifestyle above slave wages.  This does not mention normal business overhead to support this unappreciated endeavor by others.
   
  I read about folks complaining about prices, but I don't see a business discussion to back up the overpriced claims.  All I ever read are, comments about what it costs to cobble a pair of cables together at the kitchen table with no discussion about "real" business costs.  I guess I could complain about the price of salmon in the local grocery store if I lived next to a salmon bearing stream, the salmon were plentiful and in season.  But of course, that wouldn't take into consideration all the costs it takes to get salmon from the stream to the market, just so I can complain about the price.
   
  A question, how silly would I look in front of everybody if I went into that same said market and in public, complained to the store manager and I told everybody listening that not only do I think the price is a rip, but I don't even like the taste of salmon and have no intention of buying any.  Even you guys would think I was nuts if you saw or heard me do that and in truth, that's what you guys are doing here when you complain about the price of custom headphone cables.
   
  The point, don't you think if you're gonna say that it's over the top pricing, for something you don't want to buy and have no intention of buying, that at least it would be fair to discuss real business costs in relationship to the retail price of the headphone cables, before saying it's a rip?
   
  ???


----------



## Albedo

Some companies (like Supra or Mogami) are located in first-world nation and get by without the ridiculous pricing, their no-nonsense professionalism speak for itself and their claims are legit because they are not of the mumbo-jumbo kind. Supra have a staff of fifteen and gets by pretty well and are not shunned because they do deliver on what they are claiming. Funny thing is that they for some reason don't seem that interested in the headphone cable market, there are two alternative paths, DIY which of course is dirt-cheap or hire someone to the the soldering which is both reasonable and of course doable.
   
  Here a thought.. what if the stock cable isn't all that shoddy, maybe a re-soldering is the way to go on such "cheap" headphones as the HD 600, maybe opt for a better plug. Certainly none in their right mind (cognitive dissonance -> post-purchase rationalization) actually recommend a purchase of a cable costing nearly $400 with the aforementioned headphone?
   
  If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck...


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





rick said:


> As I have already stated, that information, papers, research, is all classified information until we receive confirmation of our patent pending status.


 

 Don't see any patent applications from either you or Warren Audio.
   
  se


----------



## Rick

Why would I disclose to the public a patent application?  patent applications are for the patent office only. And even they do not post accepted applications to the public until 18 months after they accept them. Our application is awaiting acceptance, and therefore is not available to the public.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Don't see any patent applications from either you or Warren Audio.
> 
> se


----------



## Uncle Erik

Rick, the USPTO (www.uspto.gov) will confirm if a patent is pending. That has nothing to do with disclosure of the application contents.

 When did you file your patent application?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





rick said:


> Why would I disclose to the public a patent application?  patent applications are for the patent office only. And even they do not post accepted applications to the public until 18 months after they accept them.


 


 That's funny. I'm looking at a patent application right now (20100164718) that was filed on March 11th of this year.
   
  And if you indeed are seeking a patent, then why did you put this "official technical drawing" of your cable in the public domain?
   



  se


----------



## Dubwicht

Ever take a close look at your audio components?  They are soldered with yes - lead solder.  All that fancy wire feeding the headphones and components and they must pass through lead solder before reaching your ears.  Interesting?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





dubwicht said:


> Ever take a close look at your audio components?  They are soldered with yes - lead solder.  All that fancy wire feeding the headphones and components and they must pass through lead solder before reaching your ears.  Interesting?


 


  Not to take away from your main point, but lead solder's being phased out these days because of RoHS (Removal of Hazardous Substances) initiative. Most of the lead-free alloys are either tin/silver alloys or pure tin.
   
  se


----------



## revolink24

Quote: 





googleborg said:


> I wish companies would stop making products that have such glaring and obvious weaknesses which are so easily solved!  I mean, _*if the improvements were so good, indeed worth the cost of entire headphones in-themselves,*_ they could just swing their vastly higher purchasing power and scales of economy, labour cost, R&D, precision machining and tooling, and offer headphones with the best cables already as 'upgraded' models, or their own after-market upgrades.
> 
> Are you telling me that they've not thought about this?
> 
> ...


 

 That's funny, I was about to make a post saying practically the same thing.
   
  If headphone cables made a difference, the R&D costs would probably be lower than the return at the headphone manufacturers, and they would have the best cables possible from the start. These guys have more engineering skill than all of cabledom combined.
   
  But apparently, they "don't."


----------



## beeman458

*Albedo wrote:*
   
*Some companies (like Supra or Mogami) are located in first-world nation and get by without the ridiculous pricing, their no-nonsense professionalism speak for itself and their claims are legit because they are not of the mumbo-jumbo kind. Supra have a staff of fifteen and gets by pretty well and are not shunned because they do deliver on what they are claiming.*
   
*If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck...*
   
  Not once did you mention business costs, yet now you have a duck.
   
  ???
   
  FWIW, I checked both Supra and Mogami websites and neither showed headphone cables for sale in their product mix.  Mogami did have a headphone cable extension but no dedicated headphone cable.  Not saying they don't sell em, just saying that I couldn't find em if they are.
   
  ???


----------



## tmars78

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *Jeff wrote:*
> 
> *I want to make a cable that is worse than the stock 650 cable. What materials will be terrible, yet electrically safe?*
> 
> ...


 

  
  Please do this. I just want to see what a monstrosity it is when its finished.


----------



## revolink24

They don't make headphone cables, AFAIK. They make audio cables to be terminated by someone else, dipped in a bath of magic potion and fairy dust, and sold to people for thousands.
  Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *Albedo wrote:*
> 
> *Some companies (like Supra or Mogami) are located in first-world nation and get by without the ridiculous pricing, their no-nonsense professionalism speak for itself and their claims are legit because they are not of the mumbo-jumbo kind. Supra have a staff of fifteen and gets by pretty well and are not shunned because they do deliver on what they are claiming.*
> 
> ...


----------



## beeman458

*revolink24 wrote:*
   
*They make audio cables to be terminated by someone else, dipped in a bath of magic potion and fairy dust, and sold to people for thousands.*
   
  Okay, then that means the reference to both Supra and Mogami were invalid in regard to the manufacturing costs of niche products such as headphone cables for Sennheisers.  It also shows you like to aggrandize (costs being mentioned were $250.00, not thousands) and still no business discussion regarding manufacturing costs and business infrastructure and how these costs apply to the price of goods and services, you folks don't use and have no interest in buying.
   
  ???
   
  Come on, if you guys want to complain about price, then let's talk "real" business.  Let's write about ongoing, for profit sales price that consistently pays the bills (cash flow) and no more discussion regarding kitchen table, DIY, life's a rip-off, not trying to make a profit discussion cause it's businesses you're bagging on, not kitchen table DIY'ers, giving their efforts away.
   
  I know there are some small business owners, who's livelihood depends on the profitability of their business, reading this thread.
   
  ???


----------



## Albedo

Posted this before: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?LH_BIN=1&_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1%257C72%253A3476&rt=nc&_ipg=&_ssn=stinky1965&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=16&_sc=1
   
  Over a thousand satisfied customers, but wait.. something is wrong, he can't be serious as for example a bottled water salesman.


----------



## beeman458

And not a bit of business discussion in the link or your comment.
   
  You're complaining about a business owner and their prices, not some e-Bay'er.  You don't find it ironic that you're complaining about a product you don't believe in, won't be buying and you're posting a link to a less expensive product line.  And?  FWIW, it's called competition and consumers have a choice who and where they'll buy their products from.  And if a company fails to sell enough of their products to meet their costs, they fail.  Seems straight forward to me.
   
  ???
   
  If you're not able to discuss costs of providing goods and services, just say so.  It's okay.  I find it ironic folks are so quick to write about prices being a rip, yet they're unwilling to discuss real business costs and what it takes to get quality niche products to market, consistently turning a sufficient profit in the process to pay recurring costs and how labor rates (place of origin) along with state and federal labor/tax/environmental code compliance comes into the equation.
   
  You do expect all labor laws to be followed and all required taxes to be paid don't you?
   
  ???


----------



## Albedo

A retailer of Supra cable does also custom installation in North America and I bet they also do a Headphone cable, where I'm at that is easy peasy... custom lenght, plugs.. you name it and they do factor in the cost for the bread on their table. The eBay link was to show the actual cost for some cable without mumbo-jubmo..
   
  All you have to do is ask and they (the retailers) are more than willing to comply with your needs, as they are making a living out of all sorts of requests.


----------



## beeman458

*A retailer of Supra cable does also custom installation in North America and I bet they also do a Headphone cable, where I'm at that is easy peasy... custom lenght, plugs.. you name it and they do factor in the cost for the bread on their table. The eBay link was to show the actual cost for some cable without mumbo-jubmo..*
   
  You bet?  We're talking about a dependable source for a hobbyist to buy and since most here are not having a sound studio wired, your suggestion regarding Supra cables is completely invalid.  As to the e-Bay link, it shows nothing regarding the cost of a legitimate business providing a headphone cable and the costs which surround doing so.  You of course know this e-Bay'er is paying all taxes and is following all state and federal regulations?
   
  ???
   
  Again, if you can't discuss business costs of providing goods and services, I'm good.  I'm not trying to pin you.  I'm just pointing out that there are legitimate costs of providing goods and services and this is reflected in each company's pricing structure.  And if one is going call somebody a rip, then they need to be willing to openly discuss apple-to-apple business costs or they're just grandstanding.  Come on, you don't find it ironic that you're discussing a hypothetical custom installation and the act of rolling a special deal headphone cable into this non-existent deal as if it were fact vs the act of buying a real, one-time only, headphone cable from a real vendor?
   
  ???


----------



## Albedo

I'm dead serious as long as someone are willing to use Proof by Intimidation.


----------



## beeman458

*"Proof by Intimidation?"*
   
  Never heard of that, other than a Chicago/New York leg breaker of course.
   
  Again, if you can't discuss costs of providing goods and services, it's okay.
   
  In the meantime, FWIW, you're calling a business supporter of Head-fi a rip without a willingness to discuss actual business costs and regulations and yet show support for an e-Bay'er who gives nothing to Head-fi.  Way to show your appreciation for vendor support.  You guys do know that if you chase all the cable vendors away with your animosity, it's going affect the ability of Head-fi to hang around and you won't have a place to complain about cable manufactures.
   
  ???


----------



## Albedo

Previous page there's a link concerning Proof of Intimidation (click on it once and behold), and don't put words in my mouth.. but of course Proof by Intimidation, reference to patent pending etc. I'm shocked! BTW I do own custom Supra cables, it's really nothing magical about the requested procedure and the costs are minuscule compared to the standard length and termination, so there's even money left to buy yourself a really nice interconnect and PSU-cable with good immunity to electro-magnetic interference.
   
  That's my perspective on the OP question concerning of what price-range a cable for a $240 -> $340 headphone should cost.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Headphone cable costs, I made mine buying retail and including all costs for £60. The Grado extension cable sells for £40, the AKG replacement cable is £18, ThatCable sell one for £5. The DIYer and small bespoke maker are going to have higher costs that the big manufacturers. If I became a seller, I would not be able to sell for £60 as i would need a profit and i would not be able to sell the quantities Grado sell. So I would look for £100 or even more, hence I would make an 'overpriced audiophile' cable.
   
  It is then your choice as to which one is worth it.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





albedo said:


> Previous page there's a link concerning Proof of Intimidation (click on it once and behold), and don't put words in my mouth.. but of course Proof by Intimidation, reference to patent pending etc. I'm shocked! BTW I do own custom Supra cables, it's really nothing magical about the requested procedure and the costs are minuscule compared to the standard length and termination, so there's even money left to buy yourself a really nice interconnect and PSU-cable with good immunity to electro-magnetic interference.
> 
> That's my perspective on the OP question concerning of what price-range a cable for a $240 -> $340 headphone should cost.


 


  A $240 headphone cable should cost $240, just like buying a watch that is bespoke, rare, a talking point, looks good and is massively 'overpriced'. Now, if Grado started to sell their extension cable for $240, then that would be a genuine rip off as we know they can sell if for much less. Small, bespoke makers do not have that ability.
   
  However, I do not think that a $240 cable is any better than a $40 one, but so long as people know the 'science' behind the $240 is spurious, let them buy away.


----------



## spagetka

Please, guys, stop all the bullsh*t.
   
  The question was: Is It Really Worth 'Upgrading' Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 Cables? There is not about science, price, material, connectors, ...
   
*My experience tell me exactly : YES, it is really worth.* If somebody do not agree, that is OK for me. If somebody do not believe, well, come to visit Prague - we can make a deal - If I am wrong I pay you, if not you will have a nice vacation.
   
  It takes me about 10s right out the box, after a 250+ hours I am still 100% sure. *The only relevant test for me is BLIND test.*


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





spagetka said:


> Please, guys, stop all the bullsh*t.
> 
> The question was: Is It Really Worth 'Upgrading' Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 Cables? There is not about science, price, material, connectors, ...
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Spagetka
   
  I am delighted to see that you agree that the relevant test is a blind test. By this I guess you mean a properly controlled blind ABX test.
   
  I feel that we could ascertain if the cables make an audible difference with controlled blind ABX tests.
   
  I do think that there might well be differences between the cables but that these differences are eclipsed by auto-suggestion.
   
  The blind ABX tests will remove the triggers for the auto-suggestion and then we can get an idea as to what is really perceivable.
   
  For me Prague is a bit out of the way although it is a lovely city, I know.
   
  If you are in the UK do let me know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Quite apart from the discussion about cables it is always a pleasure to meet people with a love for music.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





googleborg said:


> I wish companies would stop making products that have such glaring and obvious weaknesses which are so easily solved!  I mean, _*if the improvements were so good, indeed worth the cost of entire headphones in-themselves,*_ they could just swing their vastly higher purchasing power and scales of economy, labour cost, R&D, precision machining and tooling, and offer headphones with the best cables already as 'upgraded' models, or their own after-market upgrades.
> 
> Are you telling me that they've not thought about this?
> 
> ...


 


  I think this is an excellent point.
   
  The voodoo cable companies would have us believe that the Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, AKG and so on have spent a huge amount of time and effort developing their headphones, but then, amazingly, they go terribly wrong with the cable...
   
  The difference between the headphone manufacturers and the voodoo cable companies is that the headphone manufacturers really do research and I suspect have found that actually the regular copper cables are actually a very good design.
   
  The voodoo cable companies just invent some terrible pseudo scientific crap and call that "research" and ask a massive price.


----------



## audiofil

An interesting video from Townshend Audio: 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9HrYAyVItY


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





audiofil said:


> An interesting video from Townshend Audio:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9HrYAyVItY


 

 Don't have sound on this machine so don't know exactly what the test set up and conditions are if he even details them, but I'm always a bit suspicious when I see square waves used as they often have little or no relevance to anything that's going on in the audio range.
   
  And this bit from their website makes me all the more suspicious that this is the case:
   
_Wherever electronic signals are transmitted by wire, be it telephone, video, digital data, radio or TV, the impedance (NOT resistance) of the interconnecting cable is ALWAYS matched to either the source or the load, to prevent distortion. This rule is almost universally ignored in the case of hi-fi where about the most important link of all is the speaker cable. _
   
  Telephone uses matched impedances because they're transmitting over many miles and they need to transmit maximum power which is the case when source, line and load impedances are matched. But it's not an issue in this case. And video, digital, radio and TV match impedances because the electrical wavelengths are typically small compared to line lengths and matching impedances helps prevent reflections and standing waves. However that's not the case with audio where electrical wavelengths are miles long.
   
  So I'm tempted to chalk the video up to nothing more than a "dog and pony show."
   
  I also found this bit on the website interesting:
   
_These inherent Isolda characteristics are further enhanced by subjecting the copper conductors to EDCT where the copper is slowly cooled to about 190 degrees Celsius, held there for a number of hours, and then gradually returned to room temperature._
   
_Cooled_ to 190 degrees Celsius? Where do they live? On Mercury?
   
  I assume they meant _minus_ 190 degrees Celsius and that they're referring to some sort of cryogenic treatment.
   
  They go on to say:
   
_EDCT is proven to improve the lattice structure of copper, eliminating small ‘dislocations’..._
   
  This is precisely what happens with plain old, garden variety heat annealing. And virtually all copper wire used for electrical purposes has been annealed in this fashion. Further, I haven't seen any actual evidence that cryogenic treatment eliminates lattice dislocations in copper wire and I find it rather odd that freezing it should have the exact same effect as heating it.
   
  Finally...
   
_...and having an amazing effect on the cable’s final sound._
   
  Lattice dislocations will make the wire harder and cause the wire to have very slightly higher resistance. Don't see that this would have any particular effect on sound, let alone an "amazing" one.
   
  se


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Finally...
> 
> _...and having an amazing effect on the cable’s final sound._


 

 For me it is interesting that the voodoo cable companies talk always in terms of effects on the sound.
   
  This changing of the sound in some way is not an improvement but merely an alteration.
   
  I think the primarily objective in hi fi is indeed _high fidelity_, this means that the audio equipment reproduces as accurately as possible what is in the recording.
   
  The voodoo cable companies don't actually tell us that the cables improve fidelity. They tell us endlessly about the effects on the sound but hi fi really isn't about creating sound effects.
   
  This is something which applies to all of hi fi today. Unfortunately so much of the equipment on sale is simply producing too much euphony and while this is appealing for a short while it becomes very annoying if you are indeed interested in the recording.
   
  Many of the so-called high end components for sale today are not very good at reproducing the recordings, but rather they simply churn out a harmonious euphony.


----------



## spagetka

Great comment!
   
   
  I made similar conclusions with K701(stock)/HD650(stock)/HD650(Zu2) especially this one:
   
  "A similar thing occurs when listening to my HD800's vs HD650.  *I listen to the HD800's and hear a piece of detail in the bass that just hits me*.  Never heard that before when listening with the HD650's, I think.  *So I put on the HD650's and this time,* *I'm listening for it.  It's soft, but it's there.  There's a difference between detail that jumps at you and detail that you have to be listening out for since you expect it to be there.*  Or worse, detail is inserted where you expect and it's not there.  It's like when you hear your phone ringing (usually when you're expecting a call) when no such thing happened." 

  
  Quote: 





aimlink said:


> I was switching back and forth between my HD650 and Ed8s and the more I did so while comparing, the less different they sounded.  They sounded most different when I initially switched from one to the other.  This happens to me all the time and I put this one down to another effect of expectation and my mind filling in the blanks.  I'm very concerned about this phenomenon and what it would do when endlessly switching back and forth between the same track playing through two slightly different chains.
> 
> A similar thing occurs when listening to my HD800's vs HD650.  I listen to the HD800's and hear a piece of detail in the bass that just hits me.  Never heard that before when listening with the HD650's, I think.  So I put on the HD650's and this time, I'm listening for it.  It's soft, but it's there.  There's a difference between detail that jumps at you and detail that you have to be listening out for since you expect it to be there.  Or worse, detail is inserted where you expect and it's not there.  It's like when you hear your phone ringing (usually when you're expecting a call) when no such thing happened.
> 
> ...


----------



## beeman458

FWIW, my opinion, listening to music is suppose to be an enjoyable and relaxing pursuit.  To me, what music listening isn't about, is having to work at it.  One should question a recording or various gear that requires rapt attention in order to pick out nuances.  The nuances should be there for all to enjoy, not just for the experienced listener.
   
  ???
   
_(The above is based upon aimlink and spagetka's comments and is just an observation and nothing more.)_
   
  Maybe I have the wrong attitude (expectation) about this whole music listening thing.
   
  ???


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





spagetka said:


> Great comment!
> 
> 
> I made similar conclusions with K701(stock)/HD650(stock)/HD650(Zu2) especially this one:
> ...


 

  
  In response to comments by aimlink and spagetka.
   
  I think that these are interesting observations.
   
  Many hi fi people listen to music from the _outside -> in_ rather than the _inside -> out_. I used to do this, and I still do, but I do it gradually a bit less all the time. You might wonder what this _outside -> in_ and _inside -> out_ is.
   
_Outside - > in_ is where you listen with attention directed towards the replay quality.
   
_Inside -> out_ is where you listen to the music coming through the replay system.
   
  Most reviews you see of audio stuff today are written by someone who has been listening _outside -> in_. In fact, every review I've read in the past years is like this. It is kind of obvious that they would be as the person is reviewing the audio equipment. But we don't listen to music in the same state as the audio equipment reviewer. When we listen to music we are just wanting to hear the music. If we go with the more natural music listening state of _inside -> out_ then I think we actually become better at assessing effects on that music by the reproduction equipment.
   
  I think it might be good to try the _inside -> out_ approach to listening to music. At first it will feel like you are consciously ignoring the audio equipment and that is fine. After a while of listening _inside -> out_ then I think you will start to gradually begin to see quite a big difference in how you comprehend these sonic issues.


----------



## audiofil

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Don't have sound on this machine so don't know exactly what the test set up and conditions are if he even details them, but I'm always a bit suspicious when I see square waves used as they often have little or no relevance to anything that's going on in the audio range.


 
   
  Sure ... I've found that cable science is, most of the time and for most people (manufacturers, users, skeptics), more of a rhetorical exercise than anything else.
  Either it comes from a cable company you tries to sell a product and back it up with some fancy literature or from a fervent skeptic who repeats like mad the same "it's all voodoo" phrase, both seem just as pointless.
   
   
  On the other hand, if we approach things with an open mind we may actually learn something.
   
  Back to the video I've linked before. In the test he basically runs a 2Khz square wave through a speaker cable and compares the signal coming straight from the wave generator to the (same) signal transmitted through the cable.
  Inverting the phase on the cable end allows the oscilloscope to show the differences between input and output (by subtraction).
   
   
  Just as food for thought here is a quote from Headroom's literature on square wave tests:
  Quote: 





> While frequency response graphs will tell you about the amplitude response of headphones at various frequencies, it doesn't tell you about the ability of the headphones to keep all differing frequency components lined up in time. For an audio signal to sound coherent and natural the high speed edges of the signal need to travel through the system at the same speed as the low frequency components.
> When phase is smeared, the square wave starts to look quite ragged as all its components become misaligned. For the upper mid and treble frequencies the 500 Hz square wave is very sensitive to phase errors.


 
   
   
  I wish we could see more .... *science* on this cable matter, so we can put to rest the ridiculous religious war between the chosen ones and the infidels.


----------



## beeman458

*I wish we could see more .... science on this cable matter, so we can put to rest the ridiculous religious war between the chosen ones and the infidels.*
   
  Can I be the infidel?
   





   
  Just bought another headphone cable that's balanced and I bought it from Warren Audio.  Why?  Because I didn't like the rude way you guys were bagging on Rick who was thoughtfully trying to answer your questions.  And by doing so, I knew it would give you anti-cable types something more to write about.
   




   
  And the money?  It will be put to good use stimulating the economy and this is a good thing.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





audiofil said:


> I wish we could see more .... *science* on this cable matter, so we can put to rest the ridiculous religious war between the chosen ones and the infidels.


 

 So do I 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The key thing that is missing from the scientific observations with credibility (rather than the pure pseudo science stuff) is _quantification_.
   
  Often we are told that such and such will make some sort of difference but there is unfortunately absolutely no indication as to how much difference.
   
  Quantification can be by analysing signals or it can be by statistics from well controlled blind ABX listening tests.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *audiofil* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Back to the video I've linked before. In the test he basically runs a 2Khz square wave through a speaker cable and compares the signal coming straight from the wave generator to the (same) signal transmitted through the cable.
> Inverting the phase on the cable end allows the oscilloscope to show the differences between input and output (by subtraction).


 
   
  Which doesn't tell you anything particularly useful. But it looks good on a 'scope so I guess it "works" for the dog and pony show.
   
   
  Quote: 





> Just as food for thought here is a quote from Headroom's literature on square wave tests:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Guess they haven't heard of "group delay."
   
  And of course they're talking about headphones, not cables.
   
  se


----------



## nick_charles

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Which doesn't tell you anything particularly useful. But it looks good on a 'scope so I guess it "works" for the dog and pony show.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Stanley Liipshitz did some controlled tests on the audibility of group delay a while back, turns out huumans are pretty insensitive to group delay until it gets really big.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> In response to comments by aimlink and spagetka.
> 
> I think that these are interesting observations.
> 
> ...


 

 If I'm speaking about the music I listen to then you'll get the impression of in -> out listening.
   
  However, if we're discussing cables, amps etc., then when I speak about my listening it will obviously take on an out -> in flavour.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





nick_charles said:


> Stanley Liipshitz did some controlled tests on the audibility of group delay a while back, turns out huumans are pretty insensitive to group delay until it gets really big.


 


 Yeah. And just look at the group delay for your typical multi-way loudspeaker. Enough to curl your hair. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And of course the topic of this thread is cables so the issue is rather moot to begin with.
   
  se


----------



## audiofil

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Which doesn't tell you anything particularly useful. But it looks good on a 'scope so I guess it "works" for the dog and pony show.


 

 Well, the point of the test is to show that the geometry of the cable makes a difference and it is measurable. In that matter I find the test relevant.
  To make it really useful they'd need to translate that difference (or lack of) into something meaningful for audio reproduction.
   
   
  I'm not so eager to dismiss the subject just yet.
  So far I've only seen tests made with a clear intent to prove that the other side is wrong. This doesn't make either side right, nor does it hold much value.
   
  I truly think that cable science is only at the beginning and has yet to produce valuable data showing their effect on audio.
   
  Don't forget the Earth has been considered flat for thousands of years till proven otherwise. That hasn't made it less round, has it ?


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





audiofil said:


> Well, the point of the test is to show that the geometry of the cable makes a difference and it is measurable.


 

 Well, a cable's geometry ultimately establishes the cable's resistance, inductance and capacitance, which is measurable. So what exactly is the revelation here?
   
  Quote: 





> To make it really useful they'd need to translate that difference (or lack of) into something meaningful for audio reproduction.


 
   
  But they haven't. So I still don't see anything particularly useful.
   
  Quote: 





> I truly think that cable science is only at the beginning and has yet to produce valuable data showing their effect on audio.


 
   
  I disagree. There's perhaps nothing more well understood than a cable.
   
  Quote: 





> Don't forget the Earth has been considered flat for thousands of years till proven otherwise. That hasn't made it less round, has it ?


 
   
  No. But we're hardly in the "flat earth" stage when it comes to cables. Well, at least the rest of the world is. Much of high end audio is still something of a technological backwater where ignorance, myth and superstition still hold sway.
   
  se


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





audiofil said:


> I truly think that cable science is only at the beginning and has yet to produce valuable data showing their effect on audio.


 

 Cable science is not "only at the beginning".
   
  The problem that the people who want us to spend a fortune on cables have is that the standard competently constructed cable is truly superb at its job.
   
  The standard cables are probably the least problematic components in the signal chain.
   
  The transducers, for example, are massively more destructive to the signal than the cables, 1000s of times more destructive.
   
  However the reason why the cable companies dream up all this pseudo-science for cables is that you can just unplug cables of course, so the consumer can easily change them. This makes them ideal commodities.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> *So do I*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 




  Quote: 





audiofil said:


> Sure ... I've found that cable science is, most of the time and for most people (manufacturers, users, skeptics), more of a rhetorical exercise than anything else.
> Either it comes from a cable company you tries to sell a product and back it up with some fancy literature or from a fervent skeptic who repeats like mad the same "it's all voodoo" phrase, both seem just as pointless.
> 
> 
> ...


 


  (The quotes have come up the wrong way round). The point I want to pick up is the request for more science. The fact is that threads that have more science tend to be ignored, particularly by the pro-cable side. For example the thread on audiophile myths containing lots of blind tests. The thread on headphone burn in theory. It died a death as soon as the theory was scrapped and science was introduced. The thread on positive blind tests and how that proves blind tests are not bogus.
   
  The pro-cable side will only argue in theoretical terms, as the science does not support them.


----------



## googleborg

it's been known to be round/spherical since at least the ancient greeks, and likely long before, ever since humankind set to sea or looked to the horizon and saw that _curve_.  I think the greeks and arabs even measured the circumference of the earth, accurately i might add.
  
   
  Quote: 





audiofil said:


> Don't forget the Earth has been considered flat for thousands of years till proven otherwise. That hasn't made it less round, has it ?


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





googleborg said:


> it's been known to be round/spherical since at least the ancient greeks, and likely long before, ever since humankind set to sea or looked to the horizon and saw that _curve_.  I think the greeks and arabs even measured the circumference of the earth, accurately i might add.


 


  You beat me to this googleborg 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I was going to write much the same thing.
   
  The idea that the earth is flat is a very modern idea and was really to do with the development of "anti-science".
   
  "Flat earthing" is about denying scientific discovery and observation.


----------



## skeptic

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> But the "problem" described by you is one of mechanical vibration influencing the sound.
> 
> Where are the results of the "extensive research"  showing the nature of this problem and how it manifests itself?
> 
> ...


 


  I'm still eagerly waiting on an answer to patrick's simple request for some research demonstrating that mechanical vibrations within a cable influence sound quality.  Particularly now that the cable schematic is out of the bag (per post #147), I would really appreciate an explanation of the practical benefit of this design and the issue it is attempting to resolve.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





skeptic said:


> I'm still eagerly waiting on an answer to patrick's simple request for some research demonstrating that mechanical vibrations within a cable influence sound quality.  Particularly now that the cable schematic is out of the bag (per post #147), I would really appreciate an explanation of the practical benefit of this design and the issue it is attempting to resolve.


 

 And keep in mind that he's not just talking about simple mechanical vibration, but _phonons_. That really takes the cake.
   
  se


----------



## BBBS

I'm using cheap Monster wire for one speaker on my stereo and even cheaper bell wire for the other one. There is absolutely no difference, and I'm one of those people who can not only hear a pin drop, but also hear what kind of pin it is and exactly where it went.
   
  I can even hear your thoughts. Spooky, no?
   
  But seriously, I have never thought I've heard a cable make a difference except for a couple of very low quality ones doing odd things.


----------



## garrett21

Believing you can hear differences in cables despite the fact that science says otherwise is the most ignorant thing I've yet to see on head-fi.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote: 





garrett21 said:


> Believing you can hear differences in cables despite the fact that science says otherwise is the most ignorant thing I've yet to see on head-fi.


 
   
  Ah, you've not been here very long then. There are far more looney assertions you will see here. For instance power cables influencing sound, cable risers, green felt pens ........


----------



## skeptic

And let's not forget "ambient field conditioners" like the blackbody. I have a good chuckle evry time I think about how this used to popup in headfi banner ads. (http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html )


----------



## Puranti

^ what's this ? some kind of bad energy absorber ?


----------



## marcus49371

yep, definitely try them out before getting, after all, if your ears can't tell the difference forget about the upgrade...


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





nick_charles said:


> Ah, you've not been here very long then. There are far more looney assertions you will see here. For instance power cables influencing sound, cable risers, green felt pens ........


 
   
  Green felt pens used on the edge of CD's was the first audio improvement "rumor/wives tale" I ever heard; way back in '89 when my dad got his first one.


----------



## GradestCanadian

Its worth it if you think it sounds better and If you think it sounds better, it does .  Quality of sound is psychological and not so much scientific when it comes to cables...


----------



## CaffeinatedX42

Quote: 





gradestcanadian said:


> Its worth it if you think it sounds better and If you think it sounds better, it does .  Quality of sound is psychological and not so much scientific when it comes to cables...


 
   
  Sort of like how a clean car drives better.  I know it isn't true but it really really seems true when I'm driving.


----------



## GradestCanadian

I totally agree about the car. And the better your headphones look (ie: nice cable in slick sleeves) the better you'll think it sounds. Cable companies count on that...


----------



## thazy2

But they look so much nicer.  Would that not count for something?


----------



## LIJOE848

I agreed, I just purchased the cardas cable for my 650, honestly I cannot tell the different between the cardas and the stock cable. But it does look much better.


----------



## LIJOE848

FYI. I just returned the Cardas cable becuase it generates static when the plug is moved while plugged in. I don't have issue like this with the stocked cable. Beside I cannot really tell any difference with the Cardas cable, rather spend that $220 on something else.


----------



## SunshineReggae

Quote: 





lijoe848 said:


> FYI. I just returned the Cardas cable becuase it generates static when the plug is moved while plugged in. I don't have issue like this with the stocked cable. Beside I cannot really tell any difference with the Cardas cable, rather spend that $220 on something else.


 

 This must be your ears. The Cardas opens up the 650's, improving soundstage and removing the veil...


----------



## wink

^ this.
  The equinox cable is a bigger improvement.
   
  But, if you can't hear the difference, please don't say that others can't.


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





sunshinereggae said:


> This must be your ears. The Cardas opens up the 650's, improving soundstage and removing the veil...


 
  Or his ears are fine and he just did a proper, less biased comparison?
   
   Quote:


wink said:


> But, if you can't hear the difference, please don't say that others can't.


 
  If you haven't been abducted by aliens, please don't say that others haven't. Do you see the fallacy?
   
  In other words if you and others spread anecdotes about hearing differences then please don't expect others to take them as anything other than anecdotes.
  Keeping in mind that this is the sound science forum it is not unreasonable to require some kind of scientific evidence whose requirements clearly are not met by anecdotes.


----------



## leogodoy

Fairy tales are ok and even stimulated on other forums only.


----------



## Mr.Sneis

Quote: 





lijoe848 said:


> FYI. I just returned the Cardas cable becuase it generates static when the plug is moved while plugged in. I don't have issue like this with the stocked cable. Beside I cannot really tell any difference with the Cardas cable, rather spend that $220 on something else.


 
   
  May be a result of either poor solder joint in the cable or even loosening of the connector springs in the headphone driver assembly - or even more low-tech maybe the plug isn't inserted all the way?  Static should not be happening irregardless!


----------



## SunshineReggae

Quote: 





xnor said:


> Or his ears are fine and he just did a proper, less biased comparison?


 
  Impossible. Cardas cable is best cable


----------



## xnor

Dunno if you were sarcastic the last time, but now you definitely are, right?


----------



## mol

Quote: 





sunshinereggae said:


> Impossible. Cardas cable is best cable


 
   


 Since this is the sound science forum, why is it the best cable?


----------



## SunshineReggae

Quote: 





mol said:


> Since this is the sound science forum, why is it the best cable?


 
   
  Because it opens up the 650's, improving soundstage and removing the veil.


----------



## LIJOE848

The stock cable work fine no static and I have a shorter Cardas before this one which doesn't have the same problem. So I think it is a problem the connector.
   
_But, if you can't hear the difference, please don't say that others can't._
   
  I did not said others can't but to my untrained ears, there is no difference.


----------



## xnor

Quote: 





sunshinereggae said:


> Because it opens up the 650's, improving soundstage and removing the veil.


 
  Ok I retract my last post. Either you're trolling or just don't understand what I've posted before.
   
  Read #203 and the wikipedia article it links to.
   
   
  As for your anecdote, other people have heard other differences. All of you cannot be right, but you could all be wrong.


----------



## ultrabike

Quote: 





mol said:


> Since this is the sound science forum, why is it the best cable?


 

 Cardas cables are bestest because they are build using Golden Ratio meth and offer a constant IQ. These cables minimize electrical and mechanical vibrations caused by alternating current, which in turn determines what and how music notes reproduce, and therefore manipulates the bare genetics and appearance of their little note offsprings.
   
  Through music note natural selection, facilitated thru Cardas Golden Ration Constant IQ cables, music thru your phones will become less dark and more bright (removing that "veil" in the process.)  Soundstage will dramatically improve as musical notes with low self-esteem will not be allowed to reproduce, and only running-amok notes will succeed in making it to your ears.
   
  EDIT: *<sarcasm>*


----------



## SunshineReggae

Quote: 





ultrabike said:


> Cardas cables are bestest because they are build using Golden Ratio meth and offer a constant IQ. These cables minimize electrical and mechanical vibrations caused by alternating current, which in turn determines what and how music notes reproduce, and therefore manipulates the bare genetics and appearance of their little note offsprings.
> 
> Through music note natural selection, facilitated thru Cardas Golden Ration Constant IQ cables, music thru your phones will become less dark and more bright (removing that "veil" in the process.)  Soundstage will dramatically improve as musical notes with low self-esteem will not be allowed to reproduce, and only running-amok notes will succeed in making it to your ears.


 
   
  +1
   
  But if you stil wanna use stock cables without Golden ratio mesh anyway, be my guest.


----------



## mol

Quote: 





ultrabike said:


> Cardas cables are bestest because they are build using Golden Ratio meth and offer a constant IQ. These cables minimize electrical and mechanical vibrations caused by alternating current, which in turn determines what and how music notes reproduce, and therefore manipulates the bare genetics and appearance of their little note offsprings.
> 
> Through music note natural selection, facilitated thru Cardas Golden Ration Constant IQ cables, music thru your phones will become less dark and more bright (removing that "veil" in the process.)  Soundstage will dramatically improve as musical notes with low self-esteem will not be allowed to reproduce, and only running-amok notes will succeed in making it to your ears.


 

 Wow, that's great stuff.  Thanks.


----------



## xnor

ultrabike, you know how to make me laugh, but maybe you should be more careful and add
*<sarcasm>*
  tags to such posts.


----------



## ultrabike

Quote: 





xnor said:


> ultrabike, you know how to make me laugh, but maybe you should be more careful and add
> *<sarcasm>*
> tags to such posts.


----------



## xnor

Hah!
   
   
  But really, to the others, if you combine impressions like this:
  Quote: 





sunshinereggae said:


> Because it opens up the 650's, improving soundstage and removing the veil.


 
  with:
  Quote: 





> the stock cable can vastly outperform the Cardas


 
  or:
  Quote: 





> I've read that if brightens the sound up


 
  or:
  Quote: 





> tighten up the bass a little bit more


 
   
  you should see that as soon as bias creeps in people hear what they want to hear.
  We're not interested in your anecdotes so there's no point in posting them. Do proper tests instead.


----------



## Greenleaf7

Quote: 





ultrabike said:


> Cardas cables are bestest because they are build using Golden Ratio meth and offer a constant IQ. These cables minimize electrical and mechanical vibrations caused by alternating current, which in turn determines what and how music notes reproduce, and therefore manipulates the bare genetics and appearance of their little note offsprings.
> 
> Through music note natural selection, facilitated thru Cardas Golden Ration Constant IQ cables, music thru your phones will become less dark and more bright (removing that "veil" in the process.)  Soundstage will dramatically improve as musical notes with low self-esteem will not be allowed to reproduce, and only running-amok notes will succeed in making it to your ears.
> 
> EDIT: *<sarcasm>*


 
  +1 LOL!!


----------



## Greenleaf7

Quote: 





sunshinereggae said:


> +1
> 
> But if you stil wanna use stock cables without Golden ratio mesh anyway, be my guest.


 
  Wait till you've tried the cables with platinum and diamond ratio mesh, It lifts the veil even more and the bass is absolutely magnificent. And oh did i forget to mention, the sound stage is massive too! Use the cables with monster beats and they'll sounds just as good, if not better than TOTL phones.


----------



## yblad

Quote: 





joethearachnid said:


> I think of it like a waterslide - you can slide down with absolutely clean, distilled water for almost the whole length, but if there's even one part of it that's dirty then you won't be totally clean coming out the other end. It's probably just the scientist on me trying to see things from a technical point of view, and I can't say what difference it'll make to others.
> 
> Maybe when I've built up a rig that can only be improved by things like interconnects then I'll consider some better wires, but as of now I don't see the point in spending as much on a pair of headphones again on a cable that makes a subtle or non-existent difference. The thing is that so many accepted traits of audiophilia are mystical anyway (burn-in?) that science has also shown makes little or no difference are well-supported by the majority of people here.
> I don't think buying quality ICs is bad if you've got the cash to spare, but I do have a problem with people being scammed into thinking that a $700 cable will be vastly better than a $20 cable. Then again, some people are happy with $250 headphones and some spent $5,000, with also perhaps not as much difference as you'd hope in between.
> ...


 
   
  I like this analogy, and it's very similar to my thoughts. However, I do believe a cable can make a difference. Not these costs 5 times more than an MRI scanner made from virgin tears and unicorn hair things, but the difference between a cheaply made low grade material cable and something properly made with high purity copper (or whatever you may prefer). Although it's true that much of the internal wiring is probably not amazing adding more rubbish into the chain is just going to compound that. To extend your analogy, would you prefer a waterside with spring water all the way but with one pumping point putting in sewage, or a pure sewage slide with one pumping point adding in spring water? Particularly if your headphone cable is several metres long and the grand sum of the internal train comes to less than that. Pre amplifier wires particularly, any distortion problems there are going to get amplified along with the signal.
   
  Personally i'd never pay over £100 for a cable, and even up to that is really pushing it for me. To date I've never spent more than £50


----------



## White Lotus

I think a large problem with headphone recabling "impressions" and "reviews" are that the cables are generally quite expensive, and because they are replacing the original cable, are _very _rarely able to be A/B tested.
   
  Subjectivity creeps in, and when you read enough reviews about one cable having a certain characteristic, you'll definitely be able to hear it.


----------



## yblad

True, for some people they only have to hear one review saying something and they hear it too. And then it gets propagated further. I've always found myself rather resistant to this effect (I often disagree with the impressions I have read), but I should imagine there is probably a threshold after which anybody can get convinced. I don't think it has happened to me yet, but if I was to read/hear the same impression again and again for long enough. I'm a stubborn and antisocial git at heart, perhaps that's why I'm harder to convince than some


----------



## Greenleaf7

*Describing Sonic Improvements of an Upgrade Cable for Dummies®​*    
  Have you recently spent hundreds of dollars on an upgrade cable? Are you having difficulties describing the improved sound of your new cable? Or do you feel that you're grammatically inept when it comes to describing sound? If you've answered 'yes' to any of those questions, then Describing Sonic Improvements of an Upgrade Cable for Dummies® ​is the guide you need! We've compiled a long list of descriptive terms that you can choose from. Rest assured you will not be disappointed, and you will never again have problems describing sound! For starters, here's a list of the most commonly used
   
  terms for describing sonic improvements. 
   

 Better treble extension
 Richer and smoother mids
 Improved bass punch/body/impact/extension/sub bass/tighter bass/mid, lower bass/rounded bass
 Larger 3 dimensional soundstage
 Blacker blacks/blacker background
 Fuller sound
 Increased musicality
 Enhanced instrument separation
 Increased musicality
 Greater resolution of detail and clarity
 More natural sounding
 Better transparency
 Less sterile
 More focused sound
 More balanced sounding
 Tamed brightness
 Veil lifted/gone completely
   
ISBN: 978-0-470-59832-1000
  Price: FREE
  Other Available formats: Paperback (reference grade)


----------



## Mambosenior

Ohhh!!! No "PRAT" or "...like getting a component upgrade?"

(Please say there'll be a second edition.)


----------



## White Lotus

Quote: 





greenleaf7 said:


> Larger 3 dimensional soundstage
> 
> Increased musicality
> Greater resolution of detail and clarity
> ...


 
   
  Picked out a few favourites. Great read, thank you.

 How exactly do people claim to hear "greater resolution"? What exactly are they referring to?


----------



## HPiper

Quote: 





kostalex said:


> Recabling may have a sense. Here is my story: I was not happy with my HD650 and tried some SPC (Navships) and OFC (Mogami) recabling. I did not like new cables also, both were stiff and bulky, and SPC did not sound good to me. Then I measured my stock cable and... surprise! The cable resistance were pretty different for L and R channels. I assumed that cable is out of order and tried to cure it. I cut the TRS connector off, measured again and found equal resistance, something like 1.5 Ohms. I soldered new connector, listened and was finally satisfied with both SQ and convenience. So the problem was somewhere inside the stock connector.
> 
> I do believe that my case is not unique. Probably few bad cables were produced (or are still produced) and people really got SQ benefits from the recabling.
> 
> ...


 

 For one, it takes an extremely GOOD meter to accurately measure resistances that low, but typically with that short a wire you should be measuring no more than a couple 10ths of an ohm. If you really trust your meter I'd say there is still a problem of some sort but I'll bet its the meter.
   My take on cables is, the only way I can see that it could help is if the new cables are of a gauge or type (silver as opposed to copper) so as to lower the cables resistance. Thereby giving a more direct connection between the amp and driver in the phones. Now would this difference be audible? Maybe but I tend to doubt it. A lot would depend on the phones in question and the amp. As I said in any event I seriously doubt 99% could hear it.


----------



## Math-ECU

As a Noob with very little head-fi experience I was under the impression the headphone cables were like speaker cables...whatever will work...the power cables and such, not so much...I recently auditioned a new amp at Moon Audio and Drew asked me if I would like to try the Black Dragon cables with my 650's.  I voiced my concern over the "mysticism" of cabling.  He said simply, "Listen and decide for yourself".  I thought, well, at least he isn't trying to mumbo jumbo me.  I let him cue up my favorite reference tracks from some CD's I own.  Entering as a skeptic, I exited as a believer.  Will it night and day your experience?  No.  Will it uncover layers with the appropriate setup?  Yes.  I thought, well, the amp, transport, or DAC are the reason, so I had the stock cables put back in and listened again to certain passage portions on Fleetwood Mac and Five Finger Death Punch....That last little bit was actually there with the upgraded cable...Wow!  Did I buy it?  No, The weak link in my chain now are my other components (Think law of diminishing returns as well).  Just my 2 cents from a skeptic to a believer...Just as well, Drew then explained the theory behind why recabling can make a difference....Interesting and a big thank you to him!


----------



## bigshot

With similar sounds, the length of auditory memory measures a few seconds. In order to know whether one is better than the other, you need to set up direct A/B switching.

If that isn't practical, then you need to do double blind testing to tell.

There is no reason properly constructed cables should sound different.


----------



## Greenleaf7

Quote: 





math-ecu said:


> Just as well, Drew then explained the theory behind why recabling can make a difference....Interesting and a big thank you to him!


 
  I'm curious to know what was Drew's theory on recabling?


----------



## Math-ECU

Drew will gladly let you know his theory in engineering speak or common, every day speak depending on the route you prefer. Email him through moon audio or on here. .I think the best part of the conversation can be summed up as comparing cabling to a car air filter. The car runs great. You're happy with its performance and its fuel economy. However, when you take it to get the oil changed they replace the gunky air filter. You may not notice the improvement immediately but all of a sudden, you realize you got 10 miles further than normal on a tank and/or your average 0-60 comes down a smidge. There could be other factors at play, but you remember you are no longer choking off your air supply with a dirty filter. 
Stock cable-xx gauge, electronic theory geometry is sub par
After market cable qualities depend on gauge, geometry, type of wire to unclog the signal...
**I do not claim to understand well or that these are his exact ideas...if Drew would like to correct me or jump in with his ideas, I would love to read about them**


----------



## mikeaj

It is well established that gauge, geometry, etc. are suboptimal (and much more so for uses other than audio), especially if you ignore cost, but how much is there really to improve? Most engineers for most applications talk in terms of dB. Is he really talking about something that starts with 0.0__, is there something else relevant that changes much more than that, or what?
   
  Maybe somebody who can frame the question in the best way to get a response and not a dodge, should ask.


----------



## Math-ECU

mikeaj said:


> It is well established that gauge, geometry, etc. are suboptimal (and much more so for uses other than audio), especially if you ignore cost, but how much is there really to improve? Most engineers for most applications talk in terms of dB. Is he really talking about something that starts with 0.0__, is there something else relevant that changes much more than that, or what?
> 
> Maybe somebody who can frame the question in the best way to get a response and not a dodge, should ask.


Law of diminishing returns dictates that such improvements are rarely necessary. However, from my personal experience it is not about dB output, rather it is more about the subjective preferences of the listener. If I could achieve my Nirvana sound at a lower volume I could listen longer and enjoy this state of being. Mumbo jumbo aside, is the marginal benefit worth it for the listener?


----------



## xnor

First you must establish in a controlled listening test that there even are real differences. Then we can talk about the differences, which cable performs better and in what sense.


----------



## Math-ECU

Double Blind testing is key...agreed


----------



## bigshot

With all the things you can do to make your stereo sound better, I don't know why anyone would bother with something that obviously has little or no impact on the sound. If you have to conduct double blind tests to find out if there even is a difference, perhaps you should turn your focus to something that matters instead.


----------



## Math-ECU

Quote: 





bigshot said:


> With all the things you can do to make your stereo sound better, I don't know why anyone would bother with something that obviously has little or no impact on the sound. If you have to conduct double blind tests to find out if there even is a difference, perhaps you should turn your focus to something that matters instead.


 
   
  Let's just say someone has maxed out the benefit from every other portion of their setup and were are 99.9% and they wanted that magical 100%.  You and I may agree that its a waste of time to find differences mainly noticeable only in high tech equipment reading tests, but there are those few that have to have it.  I "heard" a difference in a test, whether perceived or real but don't feel that using the $300.00 for the cable would give me the value I desire in my situation.  I was presented with an offer to try it out and decided to.  I agree more time and effort (money as well) should be spent on more integral components for most, including me.


----------



## bigshot

I don't believe very many people have maxxed out their ability to improve their system. In fact, I think very few people have even begun. Because achieving the best sound isn't something you get by going out and buying a black box. It involves calibrating your settings carefully to suit your own individual transducers. I see very few people seriously doing that around Head Fi.

You say you heard a difference in a test, but you don't know if it was perception or reality. The whole point of doing a test is to figure things like that out. There is no reason why properly constructed interconnects should sound different. The differences in conductivity between cables is barely even measurable. If I ever heard a clear audible difference between cables, I would immediately jump on it and try to figure out why. It would be a huge anomaly.

It's perfectly fine to want to spend money on nice wires with pretty cloth covering. I like nice wood veneer on my speaker cabinets too. But I'm not going to worry about which veneer sounds better, walnut or maple. Some things make a difference and some don't.


----------



## bigshot

Just to add one more bit to think about... Comparison tests conducted by audio salesmen are highly suspect in my book.

I went to a high end audio store in West LA to audtion speakers. Very highly regarded place. A salesman was helpfully assisting me in the speaker room, switching between models so I could compare them. Nice guy. Very friendly. He had his back to the equipment wall with his hands behind his back, and I noticed a slight movement. I looked and the guy was boosting the bass on the amp behind his back. He was trying to make one model of speaker sound a little bit better than the others. I politely told him that it would be difficult to compare different speakers if he was going to change the tone controls. That guy gave me the dirtiest look and walked away without a word. No salesman in that store would speak to me after that.

Similar experiences happened to me in two other stores. Never trust a used car or stereo equipment salesman.


----------



## Math-ECU

Quote: 





bigshot said:


> I don't believe very many people have maxxed out their ability to improve their system. In fact, I think very few people have even begun. Because achieving the best sound isn't something you get by going out and buying a black box. It involves calibrating your settings carefully to suit your own individual transducers. I see very few people seriously doing that around Head Fi.
> 
> You say you heard a difference in a test, but you don't know if it was perception or reality. The whole point of doing a test is to figure things like that out. There is no reason why properly constructed interconnects should sound different. The differences in conductivity between cables is barely even measurable. If I ever heard a clear audible difference between cables, I would immediately jump on it and try to figure out why. It would be a huge anomaly.
> 
> It's perfectly fine to want to spend money on nice wires with pretty cloth covering. I like nice wood veneer on my speaker cabinets too. But I'm not going to worry about which veneer sounds better, walnut or maple. Some things make a difference and some don't.


 

 Not disagreeing with you in the least, however, application and theory divulge often times.  I was speaking to theory mainly and the experience I had.  If the cable I tested was 5 bucks I'd jump on it due to my perception, however, its not, and I don't want to spend the time doing the proper testing to see if it does matter, so on to more important components for me.  I love your use of qualifiers- properly constructed.  In my line of work, a properly constructed portfolio should yield results along an efficient frontier (theory), however, in the real world any portfolio will fall below the frontier over time but will revert to a mean within its acceptable variances and standard deviations...Wow..sorry for the monologue, I think we are just speaking to to angles and the same side of the debate....


----------



## bigshot

Building a properly constructed cable is no trick at all. You can buy one at monoprice for a couple of bucks tops. Most cheap Chinese CD players come with perfectly acceptable cables. They might short out faster because the connectors aren't as rugged, but they sound the same.

The important thing to keep in mind is comparing the measured differences to the thresholds of human perception. When you compare cable specs, hearing a difference would be like being the Princess and the Pea. It's just too small to hear.

If you hear a difference that you shouldn't be able to, that should bring up a whole new round of questions... Is something here not working properly? Is my testing procedure not controlled enough to provide accurate results? Have I discovered a brand new scientific phenomina?

That last option is highly unlikely. It's probably one of the first two.


----------



## HiFi1972

Another pro audio background guy here that has built his own cables, feels they improved the sound, doesn't think you should pay more than $50 for an upgrade cable, and thinks it's nuts that people spend even half as much as what the 650s cost on cables.
   
  It does take a necessary amount of skill to build a good cable; it takes me at least an hour to make one and think those who charge over $50 for an upgrade cable are charging a bit much for their time (I'm not talking about exotic materials, no comment there). You're also paying for the custom printed shrink tubing too.
   
  My advice for anyone considering a headphone cable upgrade (and custom length interconnects for their systems while we're at it) is: Learn to solder, make your own and put the money you would be throwing away on a better DAC and Amp (unless you're gifted enough to design and build those too).


----------



## nephilim32

p a t r i c k said:


> Hi spagetka
> 
> Before I continue I will write that I am not an "all cables sound the same person". Nor am I "anti-cable".
> 
> ...




I did an A/B test in this manner. I bought a Burson Soloist and replaced the stock AC power cord with a PANGEA SE 9 7 AWG power cable and found no difference! I have very analytical sources as well like the ARCAM irDAC and Sennheiser HD 800's, but no tighter refined bass or enhanced clarity in the overall soundstage as the cable maker (jay victor) said with the PANGEA. It's a farce, but man does that cable look really cool attached to my rig!! Lol


----------



## bigshot

I honestly don't know why anyone would think that a power cord can affect sound. to me, anyone who thinks that would be immediately suspect for anything he says.


----------



## SunshineReggae

xnor said:


> Hah!
> 
> 
> But really, to the others, if you combine impressions like this:
> ...


 
  
 No wonder this guy was banned, lol. Was so angry and desperate to make a point that he suffered from tunnel-vision and took everything extremely seriously, taking every opportunity to 'enlighten people' with overwhelming force. Too bad, he knew a lot.


----------



## niceguyliu

I have an HD600 and have used stock cables, Cardas cables, DIY cables. From my ears, I can hear differences, but it is more like changing the sound signature than actual "improvement". Maybe to some, the change of sound is more attune to their tastes and that's why they feel it's "improved" 
  
 I dig the Cardas cables, as it sounds smooth but it seems to take a little from the treble. But for the price of almost a pair of used HD600s, I'm just not digging the price tag. 
  
 My conclusion is that you just get a "different sound", and better built cables. It won't just magically make your HD600s sound like HD800s


----------



## SilverEars

niceguyliu said:


> I have an HD600 and have used stock cables, Cardas cables, DIY cables. From my ears, I can hear differences, but it is more like changing the sound signature than actual "improvement". Maybe to some, the change of sound is more attune to their tastes and that's why they feel it's "improved"
> 
> I dig the Cardas cables, as it sounds smooth but it seems to take a little from the treble. But for the price of almost a pair of used HD600s, I'm just not digging the price tag.
> 
> My conclusion is that you just get a "different sound", and better built cables. It won't just magically make your HD600s sound like HD800s


 
 You have to look at it this way.  What aspects of the cables are there?  The cable is a conductor which has impedance that includes capactive, inductive, and resistive aspects to it.  I have seen cables measured, and it shows flat impedance magnitude response which means it's resistive.  Also, is that resistance significant?  HD600 has 300ohms of impedance, and the cables typically have .7ohms of impedance.  Headphones like the HD600 don't even react much to 40ohm and it's not likely .7ohm cable will cause any noticible difference.


----------



## bigshot

It's easier just to say that headphone cables should make absolutely no audible difference at all. The only time when they might is when they are defective.


----------



## Ultrainferno

I don't like these discussions between believers and non believers so I won't post in here anymore. But to the non belivers: have you even tried listening to other cables or did you just look at numbers that don't say everything?


----------



## Strangelove424

Belief requires evidence. You're looking for faith in cable, not belief in cable. 
  
 If the evidence were there we would have seen it by now. There would be a litany of ABX tests proving it, measurements proving it, or null tests proving it. But there aren't. In fact, there is nothing but overwhelming evidence proving otherwise. Failed ABXs, moot measurements, and dead silent null tracks. A terminal moraine of proof. 
  
 Do you think we started listening to audio yesterday? I'm sure everyone here has used more than one piece of audio cable in their life. We've all heard lots of cables. Radio shack cables. Frys cables. Mono price cable. Hell I even sprung for Monster once, but only because it was on sale dirt cheap. Can you believe they had the gall to put "signal flow" direction arrows on the cable? I felt like the cable was calling me an idiot.  
  
 You can't hear a difference if it's not there.


----------



## SilverEars

When I saw this, I had no doubt that cable is just resistance that is between headphone and the source.  From there, based on the value of the headphone and the cable, there is no doubt if cable has any affect or not, unless we have an Einstein here in the forum that help us by discovering a new phenomena in a conductor that creates audible changes in the signal even if the value of the resistance is insignificant.  Maybe, some cable manufacturers purposely develop the cable to have significant enough capacitance or inductance in the cable to create audible changes in the FR.  Until I see one, it's just resistance of the cable.  I think this is pretty reasonable.


----------



## jimification

This is an impossible question and if you research greatly from the multitude of audio forums, you will find it always ends in the same impasse. Those discussions can be interesting the first time around but IMO ultimately there is no "answer" to be found there, only the same arguments from each side.
  
 You might consider that A/B/X testing as a method of determining "the answer" is futile…if you look up “auditory memory” and the way in which sound is processed by the brain, you might decide that it would be very difficult, if not impossible for anyone to detect subtle differences in sound between two subsequent listens to the same piece of music.
  
 One thread I found that WAS interesting was somewhere on the “what’s best” forum, I think, where a designer of very high end speakers was interested in investigating if cables made a difference and proposed an experiment where people could take a length of CAT5 cable and wire it up to speakers two different ways (which gave very different R, L and C values) then measure the R, L and C of each version to ascertain differences and try listening to each to see if there were audiable differences from those changes. Ultimately, it seemed hardly any one on the thread could be bothered to try the test and preferred instead to give the standard arguments for why it wouldn't work but the initial few pages were quite interesting from what I remember.
  
 Ultimately, my advice is to either borrow some cables to try (on the understanding that you can return them if you don't like them) or buy a good "name" cable used, that way you can try it for as long as you like but get your money back if you decide there is no, or little benefit.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Dark_wizzie

jimification said:


> You might consider that A/B/X testing as a method of determining "the answer" is futile…if you look up “auditory memory” and the way in which sound is processed by the brain, you might decide that it would be very difficult, if not impossible for anyone to detect subtle differences in sound between two subsequent listens to the same piece of music.
> 
> Ultimately, my advice is to either borrow some cables to try (on the understanding that you can return them if you don't like them) or buy a good "name" cable used, that way you can try it for as long as you like but get your money back if you decide there is no, or little benefit.


 
 Wait... the argument is that abx doesn't work because a few seconds is too long for our auditory memory to bear, yet cables make a difference and I remember it makes a difference because I remember what the headphones sounded like before using new cables? That makes no sense. Either cabling is fine and we can remember differences and therefore ABX works, or cabling doesn't (and ABX might or might not still work).
  


sunshinereggae said:


> No wonder this guy was banned, lol. Was so angry and desperate to make a point that he suffered from tunnel-vision and took everything extremely seriously, taking every opportunity to 'enlighten people' with overwhelming force. Too bad, he knew a lot.


 
 That's actually not why he was banned. And I'll speak no more on it less I get banned too.


----------



## bigshot

If the difference is so small (or more likely nonexistent) that auditory memory fails you when comparing, odds are the difference doesn't add up to jack diddly.


----------



## Strangelove424

jimification said:


> This is an impossible question and if you research greatly from the multitude of audio forums, you will find it always ends in the same impasse. Those discussions can be interesting the first time around but IMO ultimately there is no "answer" to be found there, only the same arguments from each side.
> 
> You might consider that A/B/X testing as a method of determining "the answer" is futile…if you look up “auditory memory” and the way in which sound is processed by the brain, you might decide that it would be very difficult, if not impossible for anyone to detect subtle differences in sound between two subsequent listens to the same piece of music.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I will not lose a single minute or blow a single dollar with exotic overpriced cables.  I've had enough cable in my life to know there aren't any differences, and I have better things to do with my audio time. There are so many techniques in audio that are metered and measured, that actually do make a discernible difference, and for much cheaper than exotic cable. What frustrates me the most is that someone new to the hobby picks up the above statement and spends hundreds of dollars, going in circles and burning their patience and their budget. They get an HD6XX for $399 and then spend $200 on a cable when they could have had an amp, another pair of headphones, or 20 CDs. That's a sad thought to me, and it makes me embarrassed to be part of a hobby that often has no qualms getting newbies to spend all their cash in dark, unproven corners of the market.


----------



## superjawes

I know I should not care, but I don't want people to spend a lot of money on something for the wrong reasons. That path leads to people leaving a hobby that they might have enjoyed.

Cables are simple devices. In fact, they are so simple that calling them "devices" is a stretch. There are good reasons to buy "better" cables. You can get a stronger cable for portable use. You can get one that matches your personality. You could even get a balanced cable to use with your fancy balanced amp. But if you want a sound quality improvement, spend your money on a new pair of headphones, or an amp, or a DAC, or better music files, or a plane ticket to fly to LA and slap a sound engineer for shoddy mixing.


----------



## BobM

ultrainferno said:


> I don't like these discussions between believers and non believers so I won't post in here anymore. But to the non belivers: have you even tried listening to other cables or did you just look at numbers that don't say everything?


 
  
 I've been an Audiophile and music lover for more years than I care to remember. I've seen oodles and oodles of these threads. Here's the only truth that comes out of them:
  
 - nobody is really going to change their mind about what they believe
 - the "engineer" types are not going to try anything the "cable-believer" types suggest, including double blind testing
 - the "cable-believer" types are not going to provide any proof the "engineers" will accept as true
 - both sides have more than enough comebacks and counter-arguments to discredit anything the other side says
 - participating in this argument is a complete waste of time (yes, I wasted my time posting this, I'm sure, and someone will still beat me up for it)
  
 But the real truth is ...
 - if it makes you happy to believe in what you believe, then that is all that really matters


----------



## bigshot

When I was in high school jumping out my bedroom window at night to go out and cause trouble, I figured what my folks didn't know wouldn't hurt them. As long as I was able to keep their heads in the sand like an ostrich, it worked. Unfortunately, my folks were too smart for that and I eventually got caught.
  
 I used to believe all kinds of crazy things that I learned from salesmen at Pacific Stereo. As long as I believed them, everything was fine. But unfortunately, I'm too smart for that and eventually I figured out they had been lying to me to sell me things I didn't need.
  
 The good thing about getting a wake up call and learning from mistakes is that today I have a lot more fun than I ever did jumping out of my bedroom window because I learned how to live my life, and my stereo sounds a lot better than it used to because I know how to make it actually work well.


----------



## mikeaj

For what it's worth, I've tried all kinds of cable extensions and adapters and did a partial recable of a headphone that was breaking down. Usually it's the low-end where there's more room for things to be bad, right? Or do people say it really requires silver, cryotreating, or whatever else?


----------



## bigshot

The cable on my Sennheiser HD-590s shorted out. I got a replacement cable from Sennheiser for $8. Headphone cables are cheap to make. All of them at all price points should be audibly transparent, unless something is seriously wrong.


----------



## White Lotus

Or unless someone cheeky has popped a few resistors in there


----------



## Dark_wizzie

bobm said:


> I've been an Audiophile and music lover for more years than I care to remember. I've seen oodles and oodles of these threads. Here's the only truth that comes out of them:
> 
> - nobody is really going to change their mind about what they believe
> - the "engineer" types are not going to try anything the "cable-believer" types suggest, including double blind testing
> ...


 
 That's what casual observers of religious debates say. Oh look, there are two sides and they never agree, therefore both must be equally as valid! ...No.


> But the real truth is ...
> - if it makes you happy to believe in what you believe, then that is all that really matters


 
 Spoken like a true believer (of some faith-based concept). I prefer having my beliefs correlate with reality. If I lived in a world where everything I wanted to believe was true, I'd be a billionaire. But I'm not. So what can I do to make my life suck less? IE, living in reality. And many others, even many other cable believers, agree too. That's why they get into heated debates about cables. If all cable believers' comebacks were "well, IDC if it's true lol", then we'd back off. Yet, cable believers are going to recommend purchases to newbies based on their beliefs. And that is harmful because it spreads misinformation like a virus. Beliefs don't exist in isolation, we don't live in an isolated box where everything we say and do has no consequences.


bigshot said:


> The cable on my Sennheiser HD-590s shorted out. I got a replacement cable from Sennheiser for $8. Headphone cables are cheap to make. All of them at all price points should be audibly transparent, unless something is seriously wrong.


 
 Last I checked, Sennheiser goes crazy on the price of the HD800 cables... like $300 or something.


----------



## bigshot

I wanted to get a second cable for my Oppo PM-1s. $300? Yeah right! I'm going to cut the little dinky iPod cable that comes with it and extend it to six feet. That's absurd.


----------



## Head Injury

bobm said:


> - the "cable-believer" types are not going to provide any proof the "engineers" will accept as true
> - both sides have more than enough comebacks and counter-arguments to discredit anything the other side says


 
 I'd love for the cable believers to provide proof of anything, or counter-arguments that discredit anything. All I ever hear is "I hear it!"


----------



## BobM

To Dark Wizzie & Head Injury - I guess some people will always remain closed minded and feel justified that their opinions are the only ones that matter. Too bad for you.
  
 Good bye.


----------



## Dark_wizzie

bobm said:


> To Dark Wizzie & Head Injury - I guess some people will always remain closed minded and feel justified that their opinions are the only ones that matter. Too bad for you.
> 
> Good bye.


 
 That sounds awfully fallacious.

 Believing in supernatural and other whacko things doesn't make you more open-minded. I recommend watching the video.
  
 Similarly, Carl Sagan once said to keep your mind open, but not so open your brain falls out. Being open-minded means being willing to accept new ideas. It doesn't mean I have to accept them without deciding whether there is sufficient reason to believe it.
  
 Although, from a non-audiophile point of view, I think we're all losing track of just how increasingly nutty the ideas are getting. A cable. That carries an electrical signal. Changes sound? Monster HDMI cables don't make movies look better and a new DVID cable didn't make Crysis look better while gaming. I want to believe in as many true things as possible and as little false things as possible and I demand that a burden of proof be met for me to accept a proposition.
  
 Also, I don't even understand what you're saying with your accusation that I think my opinions are the only ones that matter. Where did you get evidence to make such a statement, and what is your accusation a bad thing (before we even start on whether this is a criticism that applies to me)? If your opinion is that anybody that doesn't agree with you are closed minded and only care about what they think, doesn't that make you closed minded?
  
 Don't think your accusations of closed-mindedness and arrogance are unique. They are a dime a dozen from other people who don't have evidence (and may have different opinions than you. So who is correct? There can only be one truth.)


----------



## SunshineReggae

dark_wizzie said:


> That's what casual observers of religious debates say. Oh look, there are two sides and they never agree, therefore both must be equally as valid! ...No.
> Spoken like a true believer (of some faith-based concept). I prefer having my beliefs correlate with reality. If I lived in a world where everything I wanted to believe was true, I'd be a billionaire. But I'm not. So what can I do to make my life suck less? IE, living in reality. And many others, even many other cable believers, agree too. That's why they get into heated debates about cables. If all cable believers' comebacks were "well, IDC if it's true lol", then we'd back off. Yet, cable believers are going to recommend purchases to newbies based on their beliefs. And that is harmful because it spreads misinformation like a virus. Beliefs don't exist in isolation, we don't live in an isolated box where everything we say and do has no consequences.
> Last I checked, Sennheiser goes crazy on the price of the HD800 cables... like $300 or something.


 
  
 I agree totally. I feel the problem with this 'objectivist vs subjectivist' thing is that it accepts reality as both 'sides' being equal. I just don't feel that's the case. I feel that objective people _have _experienced being a 'subjectivist' to a certain extent, but evolved their understanding to a point where what's real or not is more than just belief.


----------



## SunshineReggae

bobm said:


> I've been an Audiophile and music lover for more years than I care to remember. I've seen oodles and oodles of these threads. Here's the only truth that comes out of them:
> 
> 
> - the "engineer" types are not going to try anything the "cable-believer" types suggest, including double blind testing


 
  
 I don't think so. I think that objective people have become objective exactly _because _they put things to the test. But what tends to happen is, as soon as someone say something doesn't "make a difference", they get labeled as being an 'objectivist' and thus the entire argument goes down the drain with it.


----------



## bigshot

bobm said:


> Good bye.


 
  
 Bye Bye! Nice visiting with ya!


----------



## blades

bobm said:


> To Dark Wizzie & Head Injury - I guess some people will always remain closed minded and feel justified that their opinions are the only ones that matter. Too bad for you.
> 
> Good bye.


 
  
 In my case you are comparing opinion to test results.  Not exactly the same thing.
  
 Good bye to you too.


----------



## nephilim32

strangelove424 said:


> I will not lose a single minute or blow a single dollar with exotic overpriced cables.  I've had enough cable in my life to know there aren't any differences, and I have better things to do with my audio time. There are so many techniques in audio that are metered and measured, that actually do make a discernible difference, and for much cheaper than exotic cable. What frustrates me the most is that someone new to the hobby picks up the above statement and spends hundreds of dollars, going in circles and burning their patience and their budget. They get an HD6XX for $399 and then spend $200 on a cable when they could have had an amp, another pair of headphones, or 20 CDs. That's a sad thought to me, and it makes me embarrassed to be part of a hobby that often has no qualms getting newbies to spend all their cash in dark, unproven corners of the market.




Buying a headphone cable that is aftermarket can be really tricky business. It is possible to notice very minor sonic improvements from your sources only if your sources (DAC/AMP) are of high quality, sensitively analytical themselves. Overall we are talking 5-7% if you are lucky. I would never buy expensive headphone cables or interconnects if I had mid-fi gear. I hope know one does this. Huge waste of cash.


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> I honestly don't know why anyone would think that a power cord can affect sound. to me, anyone who thinks that would be immediately suspect for anything he says.




I bought my Pangea 9 SE 7awg AC power cable for a security measure and precaution for making sure I was giving my Burson Soloist SL the right food to eat sort of speak. 
I have terrible, nasty power in my home so with my power line conditioner and the Pangea I can know my gear is protected, but as far as sonic improvements from the power cord itself? None as opposed to the stalk AC cord for the Burson. That is false. However the Pangea 9 SE is absolutely badass and aesthetically pleasing to look at. Really compliments my rig.


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> Buying a headphone cable that is aftermarket can be really tricky business. It is possible to notice very minor sonic improvements from your sources only if your sources (DAC/AMP) are of high quality, sensitively analytical themselves. Overall we are talking 5-7% if you are lucky.


 
  
 Do you have a citation for that percentage? What is improved 5-7%? The response curve? THD? Noise Floor?


----------



## Head Injury

bigshot said:


> Do you have a citation for that percentage? What is improved 5-7%? The response curve? THD? Noise Floor?


 
 Air, refinement, musicality, PRaT, congruency, viscosity, and interdimensionality. Verbosity is up as well, but only about 2%.


----------



## SunshineReggae

bigshot said:


> Do you have a citation for that percentage? What is improved 5-7%? The response curve? THD? Noise Floor?


 
  
 sound quality


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> Do you have a citation for that percentage? What is improved 5-7%? The response curve? THD? Noise Floor?




A mere guesstimating jest, for possible sonic improvements. It's small man. No BS.


----------



## nephilim32

head injury said:


> Air, refinement, musicality, PRaT, congruency, viscosity, and interdimensionality. Verbosity is up as well, but only about 2%.




Especially changing the HD 800's stock cable, which in my opinion is a very good cable. Moon audio's V2 black dragon and ALO audio' reference 16 cable may get you that 2% to 7% if your sources are sensitive and analytical enough.


----------



## Head Injury

nephilim32 said:


> Especially changing the HD 800's stock cable, which in my opinion is a very good cable. Moon audio's V2 black dragon and ALO audio' reference 16 cable may get you that 2% to 7% if your sources are sensitive and analytical enough.


 

 So how many zeroes does the price of my amp and DAC need before the inaudible is audible?


----------



## Sinter

head injury said:


> So how many zeroes does the price of my amp and DAC need before the inaudible is audible?




Incalculable. You can never have too many zeros.


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> A mere guesstimating jest, for possible sonic improvements. It's small man. No BS.


 
  
 Do you think it's possible that it might not exist at all? Because I have never seen any indication that headphone cables make any difference at all if they are not defective.


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> Especially changing the HD 800's stock cable, which in my opinion is a very good cable. Moon audio's V2 black dragon and ALO audio' reference 16 cable may get you that 2% to 7% if your sources are sensitive and analytical enough.


 

 2 to 7% of what? Flatter response? Lower distortion levels? Lower noise floor? What improvement does it make?


----------



## Sinter

bigshot said:


> Do you think it's possible that it might not exist at all? Because I have never seen any indication that headphone cables make any difference at all if they are not defective.




I echo this sentiment. I buy aftermarket cables based on desired length, quality, and looks. I have never noticed a wit of difference in the sound. Just my opinion and observation.


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> Do you think it's possible that it might not exist at all? Because I have never seen any indication that headphone cables make any difference at all if they are not defective.




Psychoacoustics and placebo effects play a large role in this matter. The testimonies of cable manufacturers and the many head-fi'rs are quite descriptive, yet deceptive. I find cable upgrades as a measure in really taking pride on ensuring durability and build quality to your overall rig. It's like buying a car and getting the leather interior upgraded with other refinements. Does it effect the engine performance? Of course not, but you are gonna be comfortable and get piece of mind that you are getting the most of what you have. That is what cables do for the most part. Aesthetics play a huge role. Not overall SQ.


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> 2 to 7% of what? Flatter response? Lower distortion levels? Lower noise floor? What improvement does it make?




I hate to tell ya, but a specific answer to this area can't be given because its all relative to what your sources are and just how analytical they are (amps/DAC's). Sometimes certain properties in a cable like its metallurgical characteristics or cable design/geometry can create a stronger signal and your gear may or may not pick up on that. Remember the cable from your headphones is the last electrical end before the sound reaches your ears. It's all about signal strength and sometimes this can have sonic improvements or differences in relation to your sources of course.


----------



## nephilim32

It's easy to get carried away with the aesthetics of this.


----------



## Dark_wizzie

nephilim32 said:


> I hate to tell ya, but a specific answer to this area can't be given because its all relative to what your sources are and just how analytical they are (amps/DAC's). *Sometimes certain properties in a cable like its metallurgical characteristics or cable design/geometry can create a stronger signal and your gear may or may not pick up on that. R*emember the cable from your headphones is the last electrical end before the sound reaches your ears. It's all about signal strength and sometimes this can have sonic improvements or differences in relation to your sources of course.


 
 The bolded part might sound reasonable in laymen's speak, but from a scientific and engineering point of view, that's pretty ridiculous.
  


nephilim32 said:


> It's easy to get carried away with the aesthetics of this.


 
 TBH, personally I don't dig the look of most custom cables. The braided look is decent. I don't like the quarter inch connection look... The HD800 stock cable is nice and cylindrical and grey, I like that.


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> I hate to tell ya, but a specific answer to this area can't be given because its all relative to what your sources are and just how analytical they are (amps/DAC's).


 
  
 You quoted a specific cable and amp (Moon audio's V2 black dragon and ALO) and a specific set of headphones (HD-800). Let's start there. What does the cable do? Better response, distortion, dynamic range, what?


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> Aesthetics play a huge role. Not overall SQ.


 
  
 Didn't you say it would improve the sound quality by 2 to 7%? Perhaps I'm not reading you correctly. Are you saying there is no audible difference, the cable is just pretty?
  
 I have a theory about people who argue that cables make an audible improvement. I think deep down, they know that cables make no difference whatsoever. They just have some sort of ego/status symbol/power deal that makes them argue that up is down and black is white. I am actually interested in finding out why you would argue that cables make 2 to 7% difference, and then turn around and say it's just aesthetics. Can you explain that to me, because I am genuinely curious.


----------



## Dark_wizzie

Jeezus, if upgrading a cable is solely for bling, then you could've shortened all of your posts into one sentence, nephilim. You know that's not what we're after here, so stop beating around the bush.


----------



## bigshot

I think that outside of Sound Science illogical things are said so often, people begin to believe them and not question them. "you need resolving equipment to hear a difference" "being an audiophile is about perfecting the last 2%" "HD audio has more samples, so it has more resolution- redbook sounds grainy in comparison to smooth HD." All of these have become accepted truths and no one questions them, they just keep repeating them over and over.
  
 Then they come in Sound Science and all of a sudden, we ask them to define things they just blindly accepted before. It hits the reset button in their brain and they look at us like we are from outer space.


----------



## limpidglitch

nephilim32 said:


> It's easy to get carried away with the aesthetics of this.


 
  
 I think Freud would have a thing or two to say about you caressing these naked flesh coloured extensions of your body, before you plug them into a suitable receptacle with a satisfying thrust.


----------



## bigshot

I have good old American shame about my interconnects. I keep them tucked away and hidden from public view.


----------



## Strangelove424

bigshot said:


> I think that outside of Sound Science illogical things are said so often, people begin to believe them and not question them. "you need resolving equipment to hear a difference" "being an audiophile is about perfecting the last 2%" "HD audio has more samples, so it has more resolution- redbook sounds grainy in comparison to smooth HD." All of these have become accepted truths and no one questions them, they just keep repeating them over and over.
> 
> Then they come in Sound Science and all of a sudden, we ask them to define things they just blindly accepted before. It hits the reset button in their brain and they look at us like we are from outer space.


 
  
 The off-the-top guesstimated percentage improvements get tossed around all over the place outside of Sound Science. Some people seem to be unaware of the fact that numbers actually pertain to something.


----------



## Roly1650

strangelove424 said:


> The off-the-top guesstimated percentage improvements get tossed around all over the place outside of Sound Science. Some people seem to be unaware of the fact that numbers actually pertain to something.



I think he's misquoted the numbers anyway, I have it on good authority from the Dagogo website that it's actually between 2.623% and 6.425%, but the OP may have rounded up and down incorrectly. But if it's on Dagogo, you can take it to the bank as gospel, they used an abacus to get the precise numbers. The spread is due to the phases of the moon and Aquarius rising, they've discovered that cables are very horoscope sensitive, a major breakthrough.


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> Didn't you say it would improve the sound quality by 2 to 7%? Perhaps I'm not reading you correctly. Are you saying there is no audible difference, the cable is just pretty?
> 
> I have a theory about people who argue that cables make an audible improvement. I think deep down, they know that cables make no difference whatsoever. They just have some sort of ego/status symbol/power deal that makes them argue that up is down and black is white. I am actually interested in finding out why you would argue that cables make 2 to 7% difference, and then turn around and say it's just aesthetics. Can you explain that to me, because I am genuinely curious.




Hey man. I'm not trying to be deceptive at all. I'm simply saying the aesthetics play a huge role, but not the entire role. I recently got to try out 2 substantial cables that are aftermarket for the 800 with ALO's reference 16 copper/silver hybrid and moon Audio's V2 black dragon. First of all the price points of these cables are very different and so is their geometry/design. To the point though, I heard no differences with the V2 but with the ALO (more expensive) it bonded better with my sources. I heard a Minimal improvement in my overall soundstage. It was more clear, airy and Balanced. If I had to slap a percentage on it I'd say 5% improvement in sound quality. Then again, this only worked cause my sources and headphones are touchy, bright and analytical. 
I simply got lucky due to my system's synergy. I would recommend the ALO cable. I don't own it, but it was nice to try out. However, I do not feel the $$ is worth it!! It's a lot of coin for that minimal SQ improvement. I could only justify the aesthetics to convince me that it would be a worthy buy.


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> You quoted a specific cable and amp (Moon audio's V2 black dragon and ALO) and a specific set of headphones (HD-800). Let's start there. What does the cable do? Better response, distortion, dynamic range, what?




With the ALO(cable) overall soundstage was a bit cleaner. It worked, but to such a small degree. Again though, it was nice to try out. I may just buy it. **** it!! It's taking the extra pride and care in your rig. Cable has a lifetime warranty as well. Also, in case your stalk HD cable somehow kicks the bucket, it's nice to have back up, right? I think so.


----------



## nephilim32

dark_wizzie said:


> The bolded part might sound reasonable in laymen's speak, but from a scientific and engineering point of view, that's pretty ridiculous.
> 
> TBH, personally I don't dig the look of most custom cables. The braided look is decent. I don't like the quarter inch connection look... The HD800 stock cable is nice and cylindrical and grey, I like that.




The science behind cable claims for sonic improvements are quite deceitful. A lot of variables have to work out in order for YOUR human ear to detect certain sonic differences with an aftermarket cable purchase. Your system synergy as well as the cable's Metallic synergies/geometry all play a very very vital role. 
It's so minimal in my experience though and it doesn't justify the price tag for overall SQ, so that is why aesthetics and build quality come in to justify the price tag. The headphone cable is quite a personal end with most head-fi individuals. Some take a lot of pride in their snakes and touch them repeatedly while listening to their music [cough!] Freud! Lol.


----------



## limpidglitch

nephilim32 said:


> With the ALO(cable) overall soundstage was a bit cleaner. It worked, but to such a small degree. Again though, it was nice to try out. I may just buy it. **** it!! It's taking the extra pride and care in your rig. Cable has a lifetime warranty as well. Also, in case your stalk HD cable somehow kicks the bucket, it's nice to have back up, right? I think so.


 
  
 Clear as mud, mate.
  
 Cost of cable: more than zero
 Benefit expected: zero

 Benefit shortfall: 100%

 Suggested alternate option: do not let your pet dog chew on your headphone cables.


----------



## nephilim32

limpidglitch said:


> Clear as mud, mate.
> 
> Cost of cable: more than zero
> 
> ...




Lol. Well my friend, this is a decision I have been grappling with for a few months now, and yet you narrow it down so efficiently just like that. There is just one thing. I have no pets.


----------



## limpidglitch

Your headphone cables should be reasonably safe then.


----------



## drez

How is this thread still going 4 years later LOL


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> I simply got lucky due to my system's synergy.


 
  
 No, I think you weren't listening for the right thing. Soundstage is a function of the recording and mixing of the music, not the cable. Cables if they are remarkably poorly designed can affect frequency response. Did you detect one cable sounding brighter than the other? Or was one muffled sounding?


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> It's so minimal in my experience though


 
  
 Could it be so minimal that perhaps the difference you heard was due to uncontrolled testing? (no level matching, no direct A/B switching, etc) The reason I ask is because the difference you claim to hear and the reasons you claim to hear them don't line up with the way home audio actually works. I think you have some expectation bias there. You expected to hear a difference, so you did.


----------



## bigshot

drez said:


> How is this thread still going 4 years later LOL


 

 The header keeps attracting visitors from the fiction forums.


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> Could it be so minimal that perhaps the difference you heard was due to uncontrolled testing? (no level matching, no direct A/B switching, etc) The reason I ask is because the difference you claim to hear and the reasons you claim to hear them don't line up with the way home audio actually works. I think you have some expectation bias there. You expected to hear a difference, so you did.




Well, to be fair I only did the A/B test with just my gear only. Unfortunately I am not made of money. I would be curious flipping my Burson solid state amp with a tube amp like a woo audio WA 6 SE. Could yield different results. Or switch my ARCAM irDAC with a Chord cute Ex DAC. It all comes down to finances. I hope to grab those pieces of equipment in the future. Be a nice difference I might imagine, but probably not all together better than what I already have. Just different.


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> No, I think you weren't listening for the right thing. Soundstage is a function of the recording and mixing of the music, not the cable. Cables if they are remarkably poorly designed can affect frequency response. Did you detect one cable sounding brighter than the other? Or was one muffled sounding?




I used the same recording of course. Fields Of The Nephilim's: Mourning Sun. This is a good recording I find to test cable differences because there is a lot of little nuances and neat echo effects in the music that are very very faint, but of course can be brought out more fully and brighter and that is just what the ALO did. Made the music sound a little less hazy as opposed with the stock cable, and I feel this is in large part because my signal from my amp to my cans was cleaner and more accurate. Some may mistake that for being brighter, but I found it to be more clear. As I said it was minimal, but a neat experience. I got to keep the cable for 4 days, so I would spend a day with the stock then flip it with the ALO and vise versa. Rotated five different albums with different audio formats and the results were small but evident to me.


----------



## drez

bigshot said:


> The header keeps attracting visitors from the fiction forums.




Tis a trap


----------



## nephilim32

limpidglitch said:


> I think Freud would have a thing or two to say about you caressing these naked flesh coloured extensions of your body, before you plug them into a suitable receptacle with a satisfying thrust.




Lol or even while listening to pink Floyd.


----------



## SunshineReggae

nephilim32 said:


> I used the same recording of course. Fields Of The Nephilim's: Mourning Sun. This is a good recording I find to test cable differences because there is a lot of little nuances and neat echo effects in the music that are very very faint, but of course can be brought out more fully and brighter and that is just what the ALO did. Made the music sound a little less hazy as opposed with the stock cable, and I feel this is in large part because my signal from my amp to my cans was cleaner and more accurate. Some may mistake that for being brighter, but I found it to be more clear. As I said it was minimal, but a neat experience. I got to keep the cable for 4 days, so I would spend a day with the stock then flip it with the ALO and vise versa. Rotated five different albums with different audio formats and the results were small but evident to me.


 
  
 A normal cable won't degrade the signal, which means that your ALO cable won't be able to make the signal any more 'clearer'.


----------



## nephilim32

sunshinereggae said:


> A normal cable won't degrade the signal, which means that your ALO cable won't be able to make the signal any more 'clearer'.




You may be right cause areas concerning PRAT were no different.


----------



## Head Injury

nephilim32 said:


> You may be right cause areas concerning PRAT were no different.


 

 I'm not sure you're reading the posts you're quoting


----------



## bigshot

This is a troll. I'm done here.


----------



## Strangelove424

bigshot said:


> The header keeps attracting visitors from the fiction forums.


 
 I'm sure it doesn't help that we're right below them on the forum list.


----------



## Strangelove424

nephilim32 said:


> You may be right cause areas concerning PRAT were no different.


 
  
 My head hurts.


----------



## Dark_wizzie

strangelove424 said:


> My head hurts.


 
 Take Excedrin for migraine.


----------



## cjl

nephilim32 said:


> You may be right cause areas concerning PRAT were no different.


 
 You do realize that the soundstage also is contained within the signal, right? If the signal isn't degraded (and you would need some truly awful cables to degrade the signal audibly), there's no difference in any part of the sound.


----------



## hallom

Hey guys,

What do you think about this (Sommer Onyx cable)?
For a HD 580, is it a better choice over the stock HD 650 cable?
Or what about the Klotz MY-206 instead?


----------



## limpidglitch

That Sommer cable seems a little shoddily put together. At least Sennheiser knows how to avoid having the cable fall apart.


----------



## hallom

I'm more interested in the sound quality differences. Anyone? I'm also interested hearing opinions about the klotz cable.


----------



## limpidglitch

Of course they won't sound any different. Don't be daft.


----------



## maltronics

OK guys, is it really worth upgrading Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 cables? Will a thicker more expensive cable make a sonic difference? Well check out this pic and see just how thin those filament wires are that connect to the driver. Then make your decision.


----------



## castleofargh

maltronics said:


> OK guys, is it really worth upgrading Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 cables? Will a thicker more expensive cable make a sonic difference? Well check out this pic and see just how thin those filament wires are that connect to the driver. Then make your decision.


 
 now I need to upgrade to silver coil!!!!


----------



## Strangelove424

Have you guys seen Tyll's video showing how to replace the HD6xx drivers? It's a helpful video if you need it, but he basically destroys a driver right in front of you. The pliers smash into the woofer cone and dimple it, then he manages to pop the voil coil wires out. lol


----------



## Head Injury

maltronics said:


> OK guys, is it really worth upgrading Sennheiser HD 580/600/650 cables? Will a thicker more expensive cable make a sonic difference? Well check out this pic and see just how thin those filament wires are that connect to the driver. Then make your decision.


 
 Some cable believers, particularly the power cord aficionados, will tell you that replacing cable anywhere in the chain will reduce signal degradation and improve sound. You don't have to replace all the power wires between the plant and your rig to improve the sound, for example.
  
 Those people are still delusional, of course. I'm just explaining why your argument might not work on them


----------



## limpidglitch

To some people it only seems perfectly logical that if you change the conducting material, it must also change the sound.
  
 It must blow their minds then, if I were to say that if you made a cable out of plutonium (yes, it does conduct, about as well as nichrome does), and the electrical properties were within reason the same as those of that bog standard HD600 cable, then they will also sound exactly the same.


----------



## nephilim32

cjl said:


> You do realize that the soundstage also is contained within the signal, right? If the signal isn't degraded (and you would need some truly awful cables to degrade the signal audibly), there's no difference in any part of the sound.




I think I am in total agreement with you here. Sorry for late response. I think now its time to get real and really go to sources that can enhance a headphone listening experience. Check this out. 
http://thesubpac.com/order/subpac-s1/


----------



## Strangelove424

nephilim32 said:


> I think I am in total agreement with you here. Sorry for late response. I think now its time to get real and really go to sources that can enhance a headphone listening experience. Check this out.
> http://thesubpac.com/order/subpac-s1/


 
  
 That's the price of a good subwoofer with onboard amp and crossover. If you wanted full-body low frequencies, why not just use an actual subwoofer in tandem with headphones?


----------



## AtrafCreez

Its not easy to get all opinions being 100% true.  You would have to take into mind that the people who made the purchase and spent good money doing so have a coloured  view leaning toward "yes, cables make a better difference"   Then we have the Big Fat Audio HiFi  Market who pay people with freebies to write a good review, plane tickets, world cruises.  I have been on any number of forums in which those who make the profits actually are those who founded the forum to begin with, pay out in prizes, freebies to  forum members ....
 In my opinion I try to read many,many personal views about the headphones or amps I want and glean what seems true and relevant. 
 With all that, still its easy to be fooled. Best just to listen to the headphones themselves and check the forum for brand problems.


----------



## SunshineReggae

atrafcreez said:


> Its not easy to get all opinions being 100% true.  You would have to take into mind that the people who made the purchase and spent good money doing so have a coloured  view leaning toward "yes, cables make a better difference"   Then we have the Big Fat Audio HiFi  Market who pay people with freebies to write a good review, plane tickets, world cruises.  I have been on any number of forums in which those who make the profits actually are those who founded the forum to begin with, pay out in prizes, freebies to  forum members ....
> In my opinion I try to read many,many personal views about the headphones or amps I want and glean what seems true and relevant.
> With all that, still its easy to be fooled. Best just to listen to the headphones themselves and check the forum for brand problems.


 
  
 You can summarize most of that with the word bias. The funny thing about bias though is that many people think they're not susceptible to it.


----------



## Aradea

Wow this thread is really something.. All these years listening to audio, different speaker materials, electrical components, etc. All being rejected by this.. 

Wow


----------



## RRod

limpidglitch said:


> To some people it only seems perfectly logical that if you change the conducting material, it must also change the sound.
> 
> It must blow their minds then, if I were to say that if you made a cable out of plutonium (yes, it does conduct, about as well as nichrome does), and the electrical properties were within reason the same as those of that bog standard HD600 cable, then they will also sound exactly the same.


 
  
 I have some communist friends who might be in the market for your wares, sir.
  
 Back in the day I got a Cardas cable for my HD580s. It didn't make a bit of difference but I told myself it did because hey, who wants to spend $$ and feel duped? Nowadays I accept that perhaps Sennheiser knows how good a cable they need to put on their headphones.


----------



## limpidglitch

None of my communist friends are all that interested in weapons of mass destruction (seems perfectly content discussing work and housing politics, and Nietzsche), so I'll se if I can arrange something.


----------



## Aradea

limpidglitch said:


> To some people it only seems perfectly logical that if you change the conducting material, it must also change the sound.
> 
> It must blow their minds then, if I were to say that if you made a cable out of plutonium (yes, it does conduct, about as well as nichrome does), and the electrical properties were within reason the same as those of that bog standard HD600 cable, then they will also sound exactly the same.




That's my logic as well, different materials and compositions MAY (well honestly from my experience, they DO) have an effect towards the sound.

But I respect everyone's opinion here and lets just enjoy our system shall we?


----------



## RRod

limpidglitch said:


> None of my communist friends are all that interested in weapons of mass destruction (seems perfectly content discussing work and housing politics, and Nietzsche), so I'll se if I can arrange something.


 
  
 Good b/c hunting down black market, DDR Sennheiser plutonium cables is getting old.
  


aradea said:


> That's my logic as well, different materials and compositions MAY (well honestly from my experience, they DO) have an effect towards the sound.
> 
> But I respect everyone's opinion here and lets just enjoy our system shall we?


 
  
 Part of the point of Sound Science is to be a place where people can come and get facts, not opinions, about things that will cost them $$. Everyone enjoys his setup who is fine with subjective feelings about his equipment, but there are already plenty of sub-forums to find subjective opinions on the difference between silver and copper cables. There needs to be the one place where you can go and people say objectively: "you can't hear that" or "that doesn't do anything."


----------



## Aradea

Well if that's the case then this thread should be moved to the cables section, just to avoid never ending arguments such as these


----------



## RRod

aradea said:


> Well if that's the case then this thread should be moved to the cables section, just to avoid never ending arguments such as these


 
  
 Well, Sound Science does need its one eternal cables thread ^_^ These types of things are always about endurance, both for repeated arguments and for the occasional outbursts of hurt feelings that the internet is so good at.


----------



## Aradea

rrod said:


> Well, Sound Science does need its one eternal cables thread ^_^ These types of things are always about endurance, both for repeated arguments and for the occasional outbursts of hurt feelings that the internet is so good at.



Hahaha okay then.. As long as no one got hurt


----------



## leogodoy

And the cables section is - surprise, surprise - DBT-free.


----------



## nephilim32

aradea said:


> That's my logic as well, different materials and compositions MAY (well honestly from my experience, they DO) have an effect towards the sound.
> 
> But I respect everyone's opinion here and lets just enjoy our system shall we?




Couldn't have said it better myself. Cable enhancements or improvements in overall soud quality largely depend on how sensitive and analytical your sources are that make up your rig/sound chain. 
I for one, in my experience, have upgraded and replaced my Sennheiser HD 800's stock headphone cable with ALO Audio's reference 16 copper/silver plated cable. My findings are huge. A review will be composed shortly sometime in the future and I will go over in great detail with all my findings. 
Happy listening everyone and happy new year.


----------



## bigshot

If a cable doesn't pass a signal without affecting it, it is defective and should be replaced. It isn't the job of a cable to alter sound. The job of a cable is to cleanly pass a signal from one unit to another.


----------



## nephilim32

bigshot said:


> If a cable doesn't pass a signal without affecting it, it is defective and should be replaced. It isn't the job of a cable to alter sound. The job of a cable is to cleanly pass a signal from one unit to another.




It comes down to getting the most of out your equipment and or gear. If the signal strength is stronger and cleaner you will notice improvements in sound quality. Examples are decreased microphonics, larger dynamic range and a more accurate bass/treble extension. Mainly, the offerings of that clean-pitch black background are more apparent with most recordings rather than ones that are mainly very very good.


----------



## castleofargh

nephilim32 said:


> bigshot said:
> 
> 
> > If a cable doesn't pass a signal without affecting it, it is defective and should be replaced. It isn't the job of a cable to alter sound. The job of a cable is to cleanly pass a signal from one unit to another.
> ...


 

 all that by switching 2 cables? wow! are you sure the first cable wasn't just a wet wooden stick?
 if the signal strength is stronger...???? zefuk does that have to do with a headphone cable? you mean louder sound is louder?
  
  my buddy started working out. here is a before after picture:

 seems like I should expect the same kind of changes from getting a better cable for my headphone.
  
 I should mention that I actually understand and agree with one of your points. microphonics(cable noises from friction/movements) can be terrible on some cables and are a good reason to get another cable instead. so that part at least meant something. the rest I'm really not sure.


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> It comes down to getting the most of out your equipment and or gear. If the signal strength is stronger and cleaner you will notice improvements in sound quality.


 
  
 Not beyond the point where the difference becomes so small human ears can't hear it. If a cable sounds different, there is something wrong with it.
  
 There are lots of things you can do to improve the sound quality of your system. Swapping cables is the absolute least effective way. You can only harm the sound with a lousy cable. You can't improve it with anything more expensive than a decent Monoprice cable.


----------



## nephilim32

^ you know it's so funny because I thought exactly the way you do about the whole cable replacement issue, but I gotta tell ya there lies a hardware problem if you don't replace the stock cable on the HD 800's if you have very high quality gear. You can replace the amps and DAC's till you are blue in the face with frustration or EQ your sources to death, but that will only lead you into so much trouble and a waste of money. The cable replacement was the LAST thing I did. I have built a quality HIFI headphone sound chain from the ground up and previously had left the stock cable into the equation. Obviously, well at least to my ears, getting the stock cable out of the equation was so unbelievably necessary because now I have a far improved and accurate stereo imaging that I simply did not hear before. This really is kind of frustrating because there quite a few variables at hand to explain, in great detail as to why I have received such remarkable sonic improvements with just a simple cable exchange. I assure you, why would I really want to lie about something like this? It would be quite a mean a deceitful thing to do. I can truly hear the differences and I really wish I could let you hear them as well. Mind you, I can just tell you all my sources if you wish and you can do the comparison yourself. 
Therefore, we will have no more subjective claims in this discussion. 
Actually, if you want to look at my member profile I have all my gear listed there if you are interested. Be well.


----------



## nephilim32

castleofargh said:


> all that by switching 2 cables? wow! are you sure the first cable wasn't just a wet wooden stick?
> if the signal strength is stronger...???? zefuk does that have to do with a headphone cable? you mean louder sound is louder?
> 
> my buddy started working out. here is a before after picture:
> ...




Listen, I'm just as shocked as you are and I really wasn't expecting to get the sonic improvements that I have received. However, the truth is that the HD 800 stock cable uses pretty cheap conductors so in a manner of your speaking ' it is like a wooden stick!!' My signal pathway for my amp to my headphones was being 'bottle necked' if you will and affecting the impedence load efficiency. Thus creating that ****ty 'metallic haze' that hover in the background during quieter moments in most music recordings. It's frustrating and I couldn't figure out for a time as to why I am still getting this problem. It has nothing to do with my amp or DAC but it was an interconnect problem and the most important one for that matter. That Sennheiser stock 800 cable caused me quite a bit of frustration and worriment, but not anymore cause once it was out of my sound chain it allowed for me to get the best to which my equipment can offer. I am grateful and. Of course I now know there is no way to cut any corners when building a super HIFI rig. 
I thought I could get away with keeping the stock cable. I was very wrong.


----------



## Head Injury

nephilim32 said:


> Listen, I'm just as shocked as you are and I really wasn't expecting to get the sonic improvements that I have received. However, the truth is that the HD 800 stock cable uses pretty cheap conductors so in a manner of your speaking ' it is like a wooden stick!!' My signal pathway for my amp to my headphones was being 'bottle necked' if you will and affecting the impedence load efficiency. Thus creating that ****ty 'metallic haze' that hover in the background during quieter moments in most music recordings. It's frustrating and I couldn't figure out for a time as to why I am still getting this problem. It has nothing to do with my amp or DAC but it was an interconnect problem and the most important one for that matter. That Sennheiser stock 800 cable caused me quite a bit of frustration and worriment, but not anymore cause once it was out of my sound chain it allowed for me to get the best to which my equipment can offer. I am grateful and. Of course I now know there is no way to cut any corners when building a super HIFI rig.
> I thought I could get away with keeping the stock cable. I was very wrong.


 

 You better contact Sennheiser and let them know that the headphone on which they spent probably millions in R&D is being held back by a piece of copper.


----------



## Vacheron

Once you build your own cable you realize just how many lies go into cable marketing and how many suckers buy into it. That said snake oil has been bought and soldin various forms for 100s of years.

Count me as one who knows cables make no difference in sound quality. Monoprice is all you need.


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> Listen, I'm just as shocked as you are and I really wasn't expecting to get the sonic improvements that I have received.


 
  
 I'm willing to wager that you would be even more shocked and horrified if we told you why you thought you were hearing sonic improvements when you really weren't.


----------



## bigshot

nephilim32 said:


> Therefore, we will have no more subjective claims in this discussion.


 
  
 Is that an order?


----------



## dpastern

Well, what an interesting thread.  
  
 I personally believe cables make ZERO difference in SQ.  Unfortunately, false scientific techno babble psycho acoustic BS makes people think that they do.  Cable voodoo should be outlawed imho.  
  
 Would I buy 3rd party cables?  Yes.  But NOT for SQ improvements.  Looks, build quality are the only Two things that would make me consider it, nothing else.  Would a pay a fortune?  Not in your life.  These cable companies know that they're snake oil.  Yet they persist in attempting to tell customers that there are SQ differences due to voodoo science BS.  The buggers should be done for fraud.  If you insist on say that cables make a difference SQ wise, pay up with measurable scientific evidence that proves the differences in repeatable tests.  
  
 For some in here, patents make bugger all difference.  Hell, Microsoft patented a "sudo" command, 30 years after UNIX had started using it.  The USPTO granted Microsoft the patent too, despite prior art existing.  Did the USPTO do any research?  Nope.  The US government makes a crap load of money from granting patents, many many many of them being bogus.  Patent "examiners" also make a LOT of money for every patent that they approve.  The whole system is corrupt and serves to only benefit the very largest, powerful and rich companies.  
  
 Dave
  
 edited for typos and bad grammar.


----------



## Mr Rick

IMHO cables only sound different when they are attached to a different set of headphones.


----------



## Linchpin

Changing cables is purely a cosmetic change unless the cable is being replaced due to it being defective. That being said you'll never convince the guy that just shelled out hundreds of dollars on a single cable that there's no difference which is precisely what keeps all the cable makers in business and laughing all the way to the bank. Things like this are why this hobby will forever be drenched in snake oil and tainted by snake oil merchants. 
  
 People buying pretty coloured pebbles for tons of money to hang on the back of their PC to collect EMI or somesuch a few years back and then still sticking by the product that was a proven fraud says it all really.


----------



## Makarov Andrei

Wild people! You ever heard sound great headphones replaced with cables?


----------



## cjl

makarov andrei said:


> Wild people! You ever heard sound great headphones replaced with cables?


 
  
 Cables don't make a bit of difference (assuming they aren't poorly designed - they should have negligible impedance through the audible frequency range, which is very easy to achieve). This has been proven in many blind tests of speakers (which takes care of the "just listen" argument quite nicely).


----------



## Makarov Andrei

cjl said:


> Cables don't make a bit of difference (assuming they aren't poorly designed - they should have negligible impedance through the audible frequency range, which is very easy to achieve). This has been proven in many blind tests of speakers (which takes care of the "just listen" argument quite nicely).


 
  Cool! ))
 I have nothing to say, but the reality is the opposite of what you are talking about.


----------



## Linchpin

Placebo is a hell of a drug.


----------



## cjl

This is Sound Science. If you don't have evidence to go with your assertions, they really don't carry any weight.


----------



## Makarov Andrei

cjl said:


> This is Sound Science. If you don't have evidence to go with your assertions, they really don't carry any weight.


 
  


linchpin said:


> Placebo is a hell of a drug.


 
This is a pointless conversation. ((( 
You were born with ears on your head, and they either hear or not. Scientific data has been entered in your head much later. Than you know music? Using what tools? Using graphs? Music is the hologram on the screen?


----------



## cjl

makarov andrei said:


> This is a pointless conversation. (((
> You were born with ears on your head, and they either hear or not. Scientific data has been entered in your head much later. Than you know music? Using what tools? Using graphs? Music is the hologram on the screen?


 
 We can test using nothing but people's ears. Double blind, fast-switch ABX testing is remarkably sensitive to subtle sonic differences, and it relies exclusively on hearing. It is, however, remarkably insensitive to imaginary sonic differences, which leads to some interesting results with a lot of audiophile nonsense.


----------



## bigshot

Trying random things out of ignorance is a very ineffective way to get a stereo that sounds really good. Just buying whatever is the most expensive works a little bit better, but it still doesn't work as well as understanding how sound reproduction works and putting that understanding to work building a sound system that kicks ass. If you are open to learning, you can end up with great sound at a reasonable cost. If you aren't open to learning, you keep making the same mistakes over and over and end up broke with a lousy sound system.


----------



## Mr Rick

I believe in 'magic cables'.  I'm just not so sure about the Easter Rabbit or the Tooth Fairy.


----------



## bigshot

At least the Easter Bunny brings you eggs and the Tooth Fairy puts a quarter under your pillow. Magic cables do absolutely nothing!


----------



## dpastern

makarov andrei said:


> This is a pointless conversation. (((
> You were born with ears on your head, and they either hear or not. Scientific data has been entered in your head much later. Than you know music? Using what tools? Using graphs? Music is the hologram on the screen?


 
  
 What scientific data?  There's no verifiable data that shows cables affect sound quality.  None.  Zero.  Null.  Bloody bugger SFA.  
  


makarov andrei said:


> Cool! ))
> I have nothing to say, but the reality is the opposite of what you are talking about.


 
  
 No, it isn't.  What you're experiencing is psycho-acoustic suggestions.  A placebo.
  


mr rick said:


> I believe in 'magic cables'.  I'm just not so sure about the Easter Rabbit or the Tooth Fairy.


 
  
 hahaha, well said!


----------



## castleofargh

bigshot said:


> At least the Easter Bunny brings you eggs and the Tooth Fairy puts a quarter under your pillow. Magic cables do absolutely nothing!


 

 don't be so hard, they can effectively reduce the signal accuracy, that's not nothing ^_^.
 just by parting ways with the cable specifications. like using a headphone cable with tens of ohm, or a 2ohm coax cable when your gears expect impedance matching at 75ohm. there are a lot of ways to make the cable sound different. just no positive difference, only possible degradation.


----------



## Vacheron

what id like to know from the believers is what specific material used to wrap around the cable increases the sound quality. If you were listening to the audio and you unwrapped that magic material would the sound drastically change? Why isnt this magic material more widely known about?


----------



## bigshot

castleofargh said:


> don't be so hard, they can effectively reduce the signal accuracy, that's not nothing ^_^.
> just by parting ways with the cable specifications. like using a headphone cable with tens of ohm, or a 2ohm coax cable when your gears expect impedance matching at 75ohm. there are a lot of ways to make the cable sound different. just no positive difference, only possible degradation.


 

 Can you link to places where cables like that can be purchased?


----------



## castleofargh

vacheron said:


> what id like to know from the believers is what specific material used to wrap around the cable increases the sound quality. If you were listening to the audio and you unwrapped that magic material would the sound drastically change? Why isnt this magic material more widely known about?


 
 only dragon scales can protect against everything. it's common knowledge.
  imagine the guy that has a lot of electronic, lives between cellphone antennas, TV towers, and high voltage cables, just below the ozone hole so he takes most of the cosmic storms in the face, while the neighbor is a fastfood chain with 10microwaves running all day long on the other side of the wall. only dragon scales can save you from the parasite noises.
  


bigshot said:


> castleofargh said:
> 
> 
> > don't be so hard, they can effectively reduce the signal accuracy, that's not nothing ^_^.
> ...


 

 can't really say, I don't suppose the guy would advertise selling the wrong impedance or capacitance on purpose. each time I read "proprietary something" only to look special with no precision on what it is, I suspect a radical parting with the logical recommended cable specs.
 I remember a short opportunity with the uber cable, the change in loudness compared to another cable was so obvious my jaw went right to the floor. and of course with the 1+2 that would change FR from the most minimal impedance change, it was like a different IEM.
 what was that cable? IDK. silver it says, more than the default cable that was already silver... and something special but what? I really can't say, except that it was big, heavy, and really didn't feel like you would want to use it at all. I couldn't find any meaningful information. but one thing is sure, the sound did change a great deal with a non flat impedance IEM.
  
 they all most likely play with the diameter of the cable the size of the insulation, or run the same cable back and forth, or run 4 or 8 cables joined together... all those stuff are "audiophile" improvements that really just are an attempt at changing the cable properties. to me a good cable is a cable with the same specs as a cheap one, but done with more care, maybe sturdier, not uber fragile like the uber cable, and using maybe better plugs than the cheap stuff. just like with an amp or a DAC, it's when it does sound different that it's bad.


----------



## bigshot

I just think it's amazing that 99.99% of the cables out there are all functionally identical, yet still cable believers keep talking about the ones that sound different, and the cable skeptics keep talking about the .01% of cables that actually do sound different when used in uncommon combinations of equipment. The focus of the discussion is on the exceptions, not the rule. That isn't particularly helpful to people that just want a wire to connect their player to their amp. There really shouldn't be miles and miles of discussion. A wire is a wire.


----------



## skeptic

bigshot said:


> Can you link to places where cables like that can be purchased?




Here you go:

http://www.teoaudio.com/liquid_cable.php

Doc and crew were mocking these on the bottlehead boards. Based on what can be gathered from the mds sheets, they evidently have lower conductivity than lead. http://www.teoaudio.com/files/LiqCable-MSDS.pdf

/guffaw


----------



## Greenears

danzal said:


> ...
> 
> Is it a case of if I hear a difference it's because I want to hear a difference, or is there really going to be an audible benefit to going with_ better_ cables?
> 
> What say you?


 
  
 No.


----------



## Rearwing

I found that the connectors on the HD600 were not as positive a fit as the replacement HD650 cable that I got for them. So for that reason alone, I can justify purchasing additional cables.


----------



## Koukol

Over in the Pono DAP thread a lot of people say putting balanced cables on your HPs sound a lot better.
 Would that be a "worthy upgrade" for my 650's?
  
 I'm asking everywhere because if I have an affordable one made I won't be able to return it.
  
 Also, I'm hoping copper will sound close to silver as I'm not rich.


----------



## dpastern

koukol said:


> Over in the Pono DAP thread a lot of people say putting balanced cables on your HPs sound a lot better.
> Would that be a "worthy upgrade" for my 650's?
> 
> I'm asking everywhere because if I have an affordable one made I won't be able to return it.
> ...


 
  
 I'm about to find out (I have ordered some new 4' cables to replace the stock 3M long cables so I can use it with my DAP on the run) and I'll let you know.  It wasn't cheap, but I needed a new cable, and the gentleman has terminated it in a mini 4 port XLR, and provided 2 adaptors for me - 1 x 3.5mm unbalanced and 1 x 2.5mm TRRS balanced to suit my purposes.  It'll look good and be very well built and suits my purposes better than the stock 3M cable that Sennheiser provides out of the box.  It won't sound any different, but I knew that before I made the decision to purchase it.


----------



## Koukol

dpastern said:


> koukol said:
> 
> 
> > Over in the Pono DAP thread a lot of people say putting balanced cables on your HPs sound a lot better.
> ...


 

 Thank you, DP!
 I look forward to your opinion.
  
 BTW~I'm also wondering if an adapter can be made where I take the 1/8 mini plugs (for the Pono DAP) and adapt it to a 1'4 inch plug for my HP amp?
 Is that similar to what you ordered?
 Since my amp isn't balanced I don't know if this will work.


----------



## dpastern

koukol said:


> Thank you, DP!
> I look forward to your opinion.
> 
> BTW~I'm also wondering if an adapter can be made where I take the 1/8 mini plugs (for the Pono DAP) and adapt it to a 1'4 inch plug for my HP amp?
> ...


 
  
 yeah, I'm pretty sure you can get an adaptor done - that should be pretty easy - just a 1/8" to 1/4" adaptor.  You don't even have to do anything with the cable.  Tandy etc should have such an adaptor.  What I've ordered is very different - my cable terminates into a single female mini 4 port XLR.  I then have 2 adaptors - one male mini 4 port XLR to 3.5mm stereo adaptor, and the other is a male mini 4 port XLR to 2.5mm TRRS balanced stereo adaptor.  So, when I'm at home, I can use the balanced setup (since it's a lot more delicate than a 3.5mm plug, I'm loathe to use it when travelling to and from work), and when I'm on the fly, travelling, I can use the standard 3.5mm setup.  
  

  
 Dave


----------



## bigshot

you can get a 1/8 to 1/4 cable at monoprice.com for a couple of bucks.


----------



## dpastern

bigshot said:


> you can get a 1/8 to 1/4 cable at monoprice.com for a couple of bucks.


 
  
 yeah, that's what I meant to say.  Found one on Radioshack:
  
 http://www.radioshack.com/1-8-stereo-jack-to-1-4-mono-plug-adapter/2740348.html#q=1%2F8%2Bto%2B1%2F4&start=7


----------



## Koukol

bigshot said:


> you can get a 1/8 to 1/4 cable at monoprice.com for a couple of bucks.


 

 I take it since the cable will be balanced I'll need two mono 1/8 inch to one 1/4 inch stereo, no?
 And will any adapter work since my Little Dot III Amp isn't balanced?


----------



## dpastern

koukol said:


> I take it since the cable will be balanced I'll need two mono 1/8 inch to one 1/4 inch stereo, no?
> And will any adapter work since my Little Dot III Amp isn't balanced?


 
  
 Stock Sennheiser cables aren't balanced by default, you have to get a balanced cable especially made up.  I'm not sure, but I think the wiring for a balanced 3.5mm adaptor is different to a non balanced adaptor (electronics whizzes correct me if I'm wrong).  Unbalanced is TRS and balanced is TRRS if memory serves me.


----------



## Koukol

dpastern said:


> koukol said:
> 
> 
> > I take it since the cable will be balanced I'll need two mono 1/8 inch to one 1/4 inch stereo, no?
> ...


 

 Yes, I plan on getting a balanced cable for my Pono DAP but I would also love to use the HPs with my LittleDot MK III Amp which only has a 1'4 inch input (not balanced)


----------



## superjawes

A single ended cable/jack has right/left/ground, so the ground path is shared between channels. A balanced setup has right +/- and left+/-, so each channel has its own ground, essentially.

As far as sound quality is concerned, there's nothing magical about balanced. If you like the sound of a balanced amplifier with your headphones, then it makes sense, but all other advantages are designer/engineer side (there is at least one thread on this in Sound Science).


----------



## Koukol

superjawes said:


> A single ended cable/jack has right/left/ground, so the ground path is shared between channels. A balanced setup has right +/- and left+/-, so each channel has its own ground, essentially.
> 
> As far as sound quality is concerned, there's nothing magical about balanced. If you like the sound of a balanced amplifier with your headphones, then it makes sense, but all other advantages are designer/engineer side (there is at least one thread on this in Sound Science).


 
 Thanks for chiming in, SJ.
 I'm considering a balanced cable because in the Pono DAP thread people say it sounds better in the balanced mode.
  
 So are you saying if I put on a balanced cable for the Pono there's no adapter that will make it work with my non-balanced HP Amp?


----------



## scrypt

What I'd like is a sturdier cable for my HD600s, not one that supposedly or actually sounds different.
  
 Ideally, such a cable would be less expensive than, say, cryogenically altered helium threaded with gold wire recast from Winston Crotchhill's fillings.


----------



## Tuco1965

scrypt said:


> What I'd like is a sturdier cable for my HD600s, not one that supposedly or actually sounds different.
> 
> Ideally, such a cable would be less expensive than, say, cryogenically altered helium threaded with gold wire recast from Winston Crotchhill's fillings.


 
  
  
 When my stock cable got screwed up I replaced it with the stock HD650 cable.  It's heavier, cheaper (approx $20 CDN), and terminates with a 1/4 jack.


----------



## Ruben123

koukol said:


> Thanks for chiming in, SJ.
> I'm considering a balanced cable because in the Pono DAP thread people say it sounds better in the balanced mode.
> 
> So are you saying if I put on a balanced cable for the Pono there's no adapter that will make it work with my non-balanced HP Amp?


 

 Theres few reasons the balanced mode would sound different... maybe because of the higher distortions it would.


----------



## BlackbeardBen

In addition to a sturdier or more reliable cable (IMHO the HD 650 cable fixes that), a more portable cable for transportable use is most certainly a reason to upgrade.  I'm thinking of doing it myself.


----------



## Xeian

Edit :
  
 I asked if i should invest in better cable for my setup on the forum and i edited my post. Why?
  
 Just read the whole 26 pages thing and im not changing my stock HD-650 cables lol
  
 Keeping my money


----------



## DiscoProJoe

Is it worth upgrading the cable of your 300-ohm headphones? In addition to what I said on this thread, here's a little extra bit of stuff you can think about before you decide:
  
 If you have a 300-ohm pair of headphones running off the ultra-flagship desktop headphone amplifier mammoth called the _Ragnarok_, which goes for $1,700, then you've got a whopping 1.7 W (watts) per channel if you're maxing it out. I guess at 300 ohms, the power of both channels must cost a buck per milliwatt.
  
 From physics class, you may recall the equation P = I2R, which can be changed into I = sqrt (P / R).
  
 (_P_ means _power_, _I_ is _current_, and _R_ is _resistance_.)
  
 So if we plug in our numbers to this, we get I = sqrt (1.7 W / 300 ohms) ≈ .075 amperes (.075 A), or *75mA of current (times 2 channels) running through your headphone cable with a pair of 300-ohm cans and the ultra-flagship Ragnarok amplifier mega-mammoth ***maxed out***.* *A teeny, tiny, mere 75mA times 2 channels running through your headphone cable!!!!!!!!!!*
  
 Now,...you decide if spending any more than $10 or $15 on a friggin' headphone cable is worth it.


----------



## Head Injury

discoprojoe said:


> Now,...you decide if spending any more than $10 or $15 on a friggin' headphone cable is worth it.


 
 Also maybe decide if spending $1,700 on friggin' 75 mA per channel is worth it


----------



## RRod

head injury said:


> Also maybe decide if spending $1,700 on friggin' 75 mA per channel is worth it


 
  
 Everyone knows you need at least $20/mA before they start to be tasty.


----------



## musicisthekey

I'm thinking about purchasing the Black Dragon V2 cable for my HD650. Could anyone comment on the soundstage width of Black Dragon vs stock cable? I'm very happy with the soundstage width of the stock cable. I've tried other cables with my HD650. While they improved some aspects of the stock cable, the soundstage width was reduced. Thank you.


----------



## Ruben123

There won't be a difference. Stay stock.


----------



## Rearwing

The 650 cable is slightly more robust, which is useful, but no difference to the sound quality.


----------



## Miksu

Hi all you science guys!
 I'm still trying to be open minded regarding to cables. Can you proof that if there are not any differences that can be measured between two cables, they cannot alter the sound differently? That is objectively, ruling out all psychological effects.
  
 I just got my HD600 and I'm going to try out Cardas cable with return option.


----------



## castleofargh

miksu said:


> Hi all you science guys!
> I'm still trying to be open minded regarding to cables. Can you proof that if there are not any differences that can be measured between two cables, they cannot alter the sound differently? That is objectively, ruling out all psychological effects.
> 
> I just got my HD600 and I'm going to try out Cardas cable with return option.


 

 identical things are identical. ^_^
 if you compare the signal going out of 2 cables and they can perfectly align(that's your suggested starting point saying they measure the same), then obviously they will sound the same. identical being always within the precision of the measurement tool. and it's unlikely as 2 manufactured products will usually have some differences anyway, even the same manufacturer making the same cable twice will not in fact have 2 identical cables if we want to be exact and some differences can be measured without a doubt.
  
 now unless you really don't know what to do with your money, I urge you to look for a low impedance amplifier(that alone would make most differences in a cable meaningless), or maybe a second pair of headphone to compliment the hd600. or maybe a good pair of IEM for outside, or just buy a fan, as summer might be hot with a hd600 on your head ^_^. those are rational sound/$ best choices to improve sound quality and enjoyment. cables are the last thing you should spend your money on, even more so if you're rather new in the placebo audiophile world, or if you don't have the tools to volume match the cables and make rapid switches(necessary to audibly compare 2 sounds).
 I must have spent like 1000$ on cables just for my jh13 the first year I had them because I believed the stuff I saw on headfi, I had the money and it was my first time not going to a store with the headphone I broke asking if they were still selling the same^_^. instead I wanted to get great sound blahblablah, I like neutral, etc. all the stuff we think when we start looking into audio. to me expensive cables are at the top of my list of stuff I regret paying for in my audio life. and I've bought sme headphones and DAP I have hated and given away or sold back the same day, but that's still below cable in regard to me wasting money. my cable now is a 50$ replacement on my jh13, and I have the default cable on my hd650. perfectly happy!!!!
  
 if you want to learn something about how and why some cables end up changing a signal(because of course they can, just rarely in the right direction, and often it's in fact the headphone reacting to them, not them actually changing the sound much), then go read about electricity and cables from electrical engineers, and avoid headfi's cable section like a plague. we're lucky if we have 1% of the people in the cable section that understand we're dealing with an electrical signal so it does at all times follow basic electricity rules.


----------



## Miksu

I agree that if we have the perfect measuring system and it can't find any difference then the sound will be same. But if we are just measuring resistance and impedance, for example, do those values cover every aspect of sound? If someone finds that highs sound a little harsh with another cable but fine with another, should that difference show in those couple of measurement values? Can you compare two cables with a common multimeter and conclude that they must sound the same? That's where I'm a little skeptical.
  
 My amp is http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/soloultralinear.htm and DAC is quite decent. I'm interested to see if Senns would give a little more detail and space with Cardas cable.
  
  


castleofargh said:


> identical things are identical. ^_^
> if you compare the signal going out of 2 cables and they can perfectly align(that's your suggested starting point saying they measure the same), then obviously they will sound the same. identical being always within the precision of the measurement tool. and it's unlikely as 2 manufactured products will usually have some differences anyway, even the same manufacturer making the same cable twice will not in fact have 2 identical cables if we want to be exact and some differences can be measured without a doubt.
> 
> now unless you really don't know what to do with your money, I urge you to look for a low impedance amplifier(that alone would make most differences in a cable meaningless), or maybe a second pair of headphone to compliment the hd600. or maybe a good pair of IEM for outside, or just buy a fan, as summer might be hot with a hd600 on your head ^_^. those are rational sound/$ best choices to improve sound quality and enjoyment. cables are the last thing you should spend your money on, even more so if you're rather new in the placebo audiophile world, or if you don't have the tools to volume match the cables and make rapid switches(necessary to audibly compare 2 sounds).
> ...


----------



## Tajak

Hey guys,
  
 anyone with hopefully unprejudiced opinion and actual experience with *Stefan Audioart *HD650/600/580 cable? I have basically read that if you plan to switch the original stock cable to an upgrade, this cable is the best choice (well - not cheap, not cheap). I wonder if it is really worthy investment..?
  
 http://www.stefanaudioart.com/shop/e-series-balanced-audiophile-headphone-cable-for-the-sennheiser-hd650600580/
  
 From my perspective, I have no doubts that a cable can alter the final sound a lot - I have tried a good amount of different signal cables on my hifi system (not too expensive one, but with a great sound - Pioneer A-91D + Mission 782SE) and there is certainly a *hearable *difference with each cable. So I guess that there is a same law with headphones here...
  
 Although, I really enjoy my actual setup and the sound comming out of it - crisp, full, detailed, balanced ... aahhh...very enjoyble experience )
  
 My setup: HD600(with a stock cable) + Schiit Bifrost + Schiit Valhalla 2


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## judgmentday

Have you guys who have the HD650/HD600 tried this MOGAMI upgrade cable?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-SENNHEISER-HEADPHONE-CABLE-HD600-HD650-MOGAMI-CARDAS-NEUTRIK-1-4-or-BALANCED-/171649354489?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27f7194af9
 I'd appreciate you input on this one.  Thanks.


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## CanadianMaestro

judgmentday said:


> Have you guys who have the HD650/HD600 tried this MOGAMI upgrade cable?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-SENNHEISER-HEADPHONE-CABLE-HD600-HD650-MOGAMI-CARDAS-NEUTRIK-1-4-or-BALANCED-/171649354489?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27f7194af9
> I'd appreciate you input on this one.  Thanks.





I had a Mogami for my 650. Did not improve much above the stock.
Amped from WA6 and BHA-1.


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## jazzy007

Just got my 1.3m FURUTECH iHP-35S ADL headphone cable, through Amazon but ship from Japan, for my HD580, and all I could say is wow, compared with original Sennheiser OEM cable. Great build quality aside (absolutely rock solid, zero movement on the connection to headphone or connection to headphone amp with flexible cable without begin too soft), it just sounds effortless. There is no compression on any part of music, and everything from treble to mid to bass are all thicker and more impact without losing any detail, yet it is incredible smooth, and this is not even burn in yet! Sound are also more accurate to real life sound and vocal still have that sweetness signature from HD580 with added round/smoothness vs a little more technical sound with OEM cable.
  
 I am driving with Headroom Supreme from my MacbookPro Retina audio directly, it is my home study room setup.
  
 Love it!


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## Ruben123

jazzy007 said:


> Just got my 1.3m FURUTECH iHP-35S ADL headphone cable, through Amazon but ship from Japan, for my HD580, and all I could say is wow, compared with original Sennheiser OEM cable. Great build quality aside (absolutely rock solid, zero movement on the connection to headphone or connection to headphone amp with flexible cable without begin too soft), it just sounds effortless. There is no compression on any part of music, and everything from treble to mid to bass are all thicker and more impact without losing any detail, yet it is incredible smooth, and this is not even burn in yet! Sound are also more accurate to real life sound and vocal still have that sweetness signature from HD580 with added round/smoothness vs a little more technical sound with OEM cable.
> 
> I am driving with Headroom Supreme from my MacbookPro Retina audio directly, it is my home study room setup.
> 
> Love it!




So apart from saying that a cable has a great impact on sound quality, you're also saying it needs some burn in? A cable?


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## jazzy007

ruben123 said:


> So apart from saying that a cable has a great impact on sound quality, you're also saying it needs some burn in? A cable?


 

 What do you think, and what do you think my argument will be for the next 20 posts you and I will be going back and fore tonight until dawn this morning, about something so boring and stupid so a lot of people won't want to argue about?
  
 Added: Arguing about cable burn in is boring, arguing about anyone is so boring and will want to argue about cable burn in is so interesting, and I am ready for the next hours.


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## Ruben123

jazzy007 said:


> What do you think, and what do you think my argument will be for the next 20 posts you and I will be going back and fore tonight until dawn this morning, about something so boring and stupid so a lot of people won't want to argue about?
> 
> Added: Arguing about cable burn in is boring, arguing about anyone is so boring and will want to argue about cable burn in is so interesting, and I am ready for the next hours.



 


Im not going to argue with you because, as it seems, you already have your mind set (so have I). Arguing will then become fighting and that's not what we'd want to happen.


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## jazzy007

ruben123 said:


> jazzy007 said:
> 
> 
> > What do you think, and what do you think my argument will be for the next 20 posts you and I will be going back and fore tonight until dawn this morning, about something so boring and stupid so a lot of people won't want to argue about?
> ...


 
  
 I am really interesting on 11pm PST, 2am EST, what motivate you want to start "burn in" argument?
 If you done this "brun in" argument routine before, as old as before I start acquire my 1st high-end equipment, more than 20+ years ago, you probably already know this is going to be a looooooooong pi__ing game. 
  
 Good luck on finding next one to argue, as much as I am interested on the subject, I am going to sleep, have to work bright and early tomorrow morning.
 Someone have to bring home the bacon.


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## Ruben123

jazzy007 said:


> I am really interesting on 11pm PST, 2am EST, what motivate you want to start "burn in" argument?
> If you done this "brun in" argument routine before, as old as before I start acquire my 1st high-end equipment, more than 20+ years ago, you probably already know this is going to be a looooooooong pi__ing game.
> 
> Good luck on finding next one to argue, as much as I am interested on the subject, I am going to sleep, have to work bright and early tomorrow morning.
> Someone have to bring home the bacon.



 


ok


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## TheGadaffiDuck

I saw a 1300 dollar Audeze cable the other day and it pissed me off. Upgrading your headphones with some $300 cables will almost never exponential difference in sound quality. Unless the cable is already garbage quality, it wont likely make much difference, or if any at all.
  
 Why you are buying a second cable is for one of four reasons
  
 1. too long for taking around your house. Yes you can take hard to drive headphones around the house given you have a decent enough amp; HD600 can pretty much handle anything but the more power the better
 2. Too long for your desk (wait wut?) Okay, you will have a minimum of a foot or more chilling on the floor, and when you stand from your chair, the moment you realize your wire is snagged on a drawer knob or sitting under the leg of your chair, you either smash your expensive headphones on the desk or floor, or best case scenario: break the wire or wire connectors on your headphones, have a long haaaaaard cry, then learn how to take apart and solder your headphones.
 3. Oh darn, i want longer? for say, you wanna game or watch a movie into the night on your couch while you're spouse is sleeping, Headphones, plus extension=game on (assuming all your stuff is plugged in accordingly).. My way of doing things is usually to have a 5 or 6 cable, then having the 14ft extension cable. 2 cables SHOULD i mean seriously should be provided for such flexibility, but nah youre spending 1000 dollars on headphone so who has time for that crap, right? Everyone should be like Grados and sell a wire + extension But you can definitely purchase longer cables/extensions if that is necessary. if that is really necessary 
 4. Durability sake, or alt. something that isnt made of flippin twine! Seriously Hifiman, I'm glad you got your crap together because wow..... that is just rude, guys...
 5. Something that speaks to you. bestintheverse, & Hivemind Cables are some of many custom cable makers that fit your needs when it comes to colors, connectors, & type of cables. I like Hivemind because of the amount of variety you get when customizing headphone wires.


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## TheGadaffiDuck

So long as the copper fibers are packed dense enough to carry a load adequately, then you are in the clear. We arent power a refrigerator here, people. It doesn't take much to copper to carry the hand full of voltage, which is fine enough for most hard to drive headphones, excluding Electric Chair *cough* i mean Electrostatic Headphones of course. So why on earth to people think spending sometime $1000 on a silver cable, which silver is less conductive than copper to begin with?
  
 "I will sit back and laugh in my millions while those head-fiers eat my blank philosophical marketing tactics." ~CEOs of cable companies


miksu said:


> I agree that if we have the perfect measuring system and it can't find any difference then the sound will be same. But if we are just measuring resistance and impedance, for example, do those values cover every aspect of sound? If someone finds that highs sound a little harsh with another cable but fine with another, should that difference show in those couple of measurement values? Can you compare two cables with a common multimeter and conclude that they must sound the same? That's where I'm a little skeptical.
> 
> My amp is http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/soloultralinear.htm and DAC is quite decent. I'm interested to see if Senns would give a little more detail and space with Cardas cable.


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## TheGadaffiDuck

Okay reason number six: you have a balanced amplifier.
  
 I know i will probably get HUGE FLAK for all the stuff ive said already, but i will say that an HD800 sounds better through a balanced cable. Maybe it's because the audio signal is being sent through two contact points rather than one? I dont know, man. This audiophile stuff really hurts my head


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## Ruben123

thegadaffiduck said:


> Okay reason number six: you have a balanced amplifier.
> 
> I know i will probably get HUGE FLAK for all the stuff ive said already, but i will say that an HD800 sounds better through a balanced cable. Maybe it's because the audio signal is being sent through two contact points rather than one? I dont know, man. This audiophile stuff really hurts my head


 

 Ssssst!!!


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## TheGadaffiDuck

????


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## Ruben123

thegadaffiduck said:


> ????





After you read the latest lost of last day you might understand my sarcasm


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## nephilim32

miksu said:


> I agree that if we have the perfect measuring system and it can't find any difference then the sound will be same. But if we are just measuring resistance and impedance, for example, do those values cover every aspect of sound? If someone finds that highs sound a little harsh with another cable but fine with another, should that difference show in those couple of measurement values? Can you compare two cables with a common multimeter and conclude that they must sound the same? That's where I'm a little skeptical.
> 
> My amp is http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/soloultralinear.htm and DAC is quite decent. I'm interested to see if Senns would give a little more detail and space with Cardas cable.




Sounds like you are pretty happy there and that MAINLY your signal pathway from your headphones to your amp has improved greatly, which will allow you to have the best possible reproduction from your gear itself. It's really nothing more than that.


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## Miksu

Actually I found another controversial upgrade: AudioQuest JitterBug. That made the sound a bit easier to listen to. Don't know if it's a crappy USB port in my laptop or just in my head, but I'm happy now 
  
 Maybe I'll try out the cable upgrade later on just to be sure I'm not missing anything...
  
  
 Quote:


nephilim32 said:


> Sounds like you are pretty happy there and that MAINLY your signal pathway from your headphones to your amp has improved greatly, which will allow you to have the best possible reproduction from your gear itself. It's really nothing more than that.


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## GloriousLettuce

Hi all,
  
 I have the HD600, the Sennheiser HD 600 stock cable and the HD650 stock cable I was sold along with the headphones as an "upgrade" that I didn't care much about.
  
 I've tried the HD650 cable and I do hear a difference - to my ears this is what happens:
  
 1. I try HD600 with the stock cable - normal sound.
 2. I try HD600 with HD650 cable - more extended highs, tiny bit more bass, a bit less mids, tiny bit more soundstage. I dislike this very much.
 3. I place a single headphone (only 1 is plugged) between my legs, to hear the sound coming out of the grills.
     a) HD600 cable sounds more quiet coming out of the grills, with more treble and bass.
     b) HD650 cable sounds louder and mid-centric coming out of the grills. It's got to be some resonance thing, as the mids are more coming out of the grills, than between the earcups.
  
 I conclude that:
  
 HD600 cable is a proprietary cable for HD600.
 HD650 cable is made for HD650, and placing it on HD600 slightly reduces the mids, increases soundstage, treble and the bass. This is why many people claim an "upgraded" sound for HD600 when they place other cables that sound "identical" to HD650.
  
 There is a lot of feedback from amazon replacement cables with this specific thing:
 1) HD600 customers claim upgraded sound for treble and bass for a cable.
 2) The same cable sounds identical to HD650 users.
  
 So this also confirms it.
  
 This puts me in an unlucky situation since most replacement cables are actually made to sound like HD650 (based on review feedbacks).
  
 I myself am searching for a shorter HD600 cable, but nowhere to be found... Does anyone have similar experiences?


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## FrozenFlame

gloriouslettuce said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have the HD600, the Sennheiser HD 600 stock cable and the HD650 stock cable I was sold along with the headphones as an "upgrade" that I didn't care much about.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have to say that I AGREE with this. Cables do sound different (On my ears at least. Don't want to start a cable war). Hearing is believing. I have a HD600 and just recently got a HD650 cable. Indeed using the HD650 cable on a HD600 headphone gives lil more bass and treble in exchange for a lil less mids. I actually prefer this setup since I can now hear the bass more clearly and the HD600 headphone has great mids anyways to begin with. Everyone has their own preference. I suggest getting the two cables and go for the sound that makes you happy.


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## Loose-Leaf

Yep,.


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## ld100

Is there any cable on AliExpress that is worth getting for HD600s? I am need a shorter cable and can't justify $200 cable for $300 headphone...


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## stuck limo

So I just tried this for the first time in my life. I have a pair of Senn 600 with the stock cable running into a Valhalla 2. I purchased a 650 aftermarket cable directly from Sennheiser. I installed the 650 cable and there is a DEFINITE difference....the sound from the 650 sounds "bigger", more present, a bit wider soundstage....but everything else about it is weird. It's tonally off. That's the best way I can describe it. The vocals have a slight reverb, have been pushed back just a smidge, and sound pinched, for a lack of a better term. The bass is more punchy on the 650, but again, it's like the vocals are unfocused. Everything else on the music on the 650 sounds wider, more "there", but it just sounds unfocused. I don't get it. Really I don't. More experimentation is needed.


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## TheEldestBoy

Hi All,
  
 I'm thinking of getting the same cable, and am wondering if anyone else can offer their opinions on it?
  
 For reference again, here's the link:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B013BYDWDI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1977604502&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00A2QJNJQ&pf_rd_m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&pf_rd_r=N2FWF2MGCFPERMXXKHEB


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## onthefiddle

This is an old thread I know but I have just been trying something out. I wanted to see if I could hear any difference with a different cable and decided to go as different as possible, (but cheap)

I got a couple of connectors off ebay for about £3 including postage, and 1 metre of Cat 5e SOLID core cable for about £1.20. Each coloured wire was doubled up with it's white wire. 

Now I realise that solid core headphone cable is a nonsense, and can only be used in a permanent listening position, and even then the practicality is marginal but I was going for maximum difference from the stock cable.

I was expecting to have to listen for a long time and go into some Zen like state to just about discern any difference. But the difference was very obvious. The stock cable sound was more constrained; "greyer" if that makes sense.

My view now is that it is not that cables can improve the sound so much as cables can limit the potential of the headphones.


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## Precaud

Sorry to revive this old thread, but for anyone wanting a spare cable set for their 580/600/650, Sennheiser is selling the 092885 3m cable with 6.5mm plug for $11 w/ free shipping:
https://en-us.sennheiser.com/accessories--hd-650--cable

I don't know if this is its normal price, or a closeout, but its a pretty good deal. I just got one and I'm pleased.


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## guido

9.99 euro Sennheiser Germany free shipping


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