# -Not relevant anymore-



## ClieOS

Life is 10% of what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it.

 -John Maxwell


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## ClieOS

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

 -Walt Emerson


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## apatN

Congratulations on a nice mod!


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## kansei

Excellent, I guess I'm doing another project.


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## sandbasser

Your timing couldn't be better - I just received some Sansa Connectors from Ridax. Now I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend.

 First soldering then... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks,


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## pdupiano

YOu sir... ROck... Rock on


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## andychen

what a man! now time to get a fuze!


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## upstateguy

Hi ClieOS

 I have a project for you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can you make a *"docking adapter"* so we can use ipod docks with our Fuzes?

 USG


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## Kitarist

That would be neat idea and also SANSA CLIP AND FUZE ROX!!!


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## gore.rubicon

has anyone tested this with an e2xx?


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## LingLing1337

Excellent, sweet guide! Does anyone know where to find some good quality mini connectors?


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## ClieOS

BTW, if it is not obvious, I use Neutrik plug in my diyLOD, which I got from farnell.com.


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## apatN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi ClieOS

 I have a project for you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can you make a *"docking adapter"* so we can use ipod docks with our Fuzes?

 USG_

 

Just get an iPod..


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## TzeYang

urm, do you think it's too much to ask you to pry it open and look at the chip it's using?

 I'm sick of IPODs and if this thing is a winrar I'm seriously considering to get one and make it into a transportable setup.


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## Earwax

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gore.rubicon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_has anyone tested this with an e2xx?_

 

Not yet, but since the C2xx and E2XX also work in the griffin dock, I'm hopeful. 

 I have a C240 with a busted headphone jack, so I'm hoping it will work with this cable. And it will be interesting to see what kind of SQ it has on the line-out. 

 I have a couple Ridax connectors on order. I'll update when I get the LOD done.


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## ClieOS

EnzoTen over at Anythingbutipod.com already open one up for everyone's viewing pleasure (read it here). I can tell you right away the Fuze's SoC is AS3525 made by Austria Microsystems (same as Sansa Clip). If you are interested in learning more about AS3525, I do have a copy of its data sheet here.


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## marksj

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandbasser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your timing couldn't be better - I just received some Sansa Connectors from Ridax. Now I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend.

 First soldering then... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thanks,_

 

Which conn. did you get from Ridax?


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_EnzoTen over at Anythingbutipod.com already open one up for everyone's viewing pleasure (read it here). I can tell you right away the Fuze's SoC is AS3525 made by Austria Microsystems (same as Sansa Clip). If you are interested in learning more about AS3525, I do have a copy of its data sheet here._

 

Hey Clie

 Is it possible to make a Fuze - ipod adapter? Could you put an ipod dock on the other end of your cable?

 USG


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## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is it possible to make a Fuze - ipod adapter? Could you put an ipod dock on the other end of your cable?_

 

I have a quick look at iPod's pinout, and I think it is possible to create a male(Fuze)-to-female(iPod) connector just to get the line-out signal. All you need to do is wire: 
 1) Pin 27 (Fuze) to pin 3 (iPod).
 2) Pin 28 (Fuze) to pin 4 (iPod)
 3) Pin 29 (Fuze) to pin 2 (iPod)


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## LingLing1337

What is that yellow fluffy stuff on the inside of the cable? By the way, this is looking at an E250 cable. The sheathing colors are also different, but I'm sure this doesn't matter.


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## ClieOS

I am taking a wild guess here but I think those fluffy stuff are the damper material in your USB cable.


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## andychen

Clie, how is the DAC quality of FUZE? It would be interesting to have a direct comparison between fuze LOD and ipod LOD using the same amp.


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## ClieOS

Fuze's DAC is integrated in the AS3525 chip (as part of the SoC). I can only tell you its spec:18bit with 94dB SNR (‘A’ weighted), Sampling Frequency: 8-48kHz. Since most of us (including me) think Fuze sounds pretty good by its own, I guess the only logical conclusion will be the DAC is pretty good as well.


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## yukihiro

Thanks for the writeup. I've been meaning to try this, but nobody made a pictorial guide. I'll probably buy a connector from ridax and try this soon. I personally don't care if there's a significant difference or not. I'm just craving for a project and I'd like to see how a line out sounds for once (true line out or not). If the line out pleases me, I might even jump into more expensive amps. I've been holding off getting a more expensive amp since I don't have anything with a line out.


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## yukihiro

So umm yeah... I was bored tonight and I had an extra SanDisk USB cable lying around so I tried this. Anyways, it's not as clean as ClieOS's but it still works. Thanks ClieOS for the visual DIY!

 My USB connector was a bit different. The wires on my USB cable were much thinner and were super glued to the board over the soldering points. I pretty much just cut the ends off of those since it would've been pointless to use them. My wire stripper also doesn't strip wires as small as the ones that were found on my USB connector. So I ended up using my own cables. 

 This also means that I lost the stock stress relief so I guess I'll just have to be extra careful since I don't really have anything similar right now.

 Anyways, here's a picture of mine. I used some Canare starquad cables that I had lying around and a Neutrik plug. 





 My personal opinion is that the amped line out sounds fairly different from amping the headphone out. The details are a little more apparent and the sound is a little more neutral. I think I can actually hear how the amps are supposed to sound now. I did this mod thinking I wouldn't really hear a difference, but they definitely sound different at least for certain songs.


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yukihiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So umm yeah... I was bored tonight and I had an extra SanDisk USB cable lying around so I tried this. Anyways, it's not as clean as ClieOS's but it still works. Thanks ClieOS for the visual DIY!

 My USB connector was a bit different. The wires on my USB cable were much thinner and were super glued to the board over the soldering points. I pretty much just cut the ends off of those since it would've been pointless to use them. My wire stripper also doesn't strip wires as small as the ones that were found on my USB connector. So I ended up using my own cables. 

 This also means that I lost the stock stress relief so I guess I'll just have to be extra careful since I don't really have anything similar right now.

 Anyways, here's a picture of mine. I used some Canare starquad cables that I had lying around and a Neutrik plug. 





 My personal opinion is that the amped line out sounds fairly different from amping the headphone out. The details are a little more apparent and the sound is a little more neutral. I think I can actually hear how the amps are supposed to sound now. I did this mod thinking I wouldn't really hear a difference, but they definitely sound different at least for certain songs._

 

Hi

 That's curious. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When you did your comparison, did you make sure the headphone out volume was 100%? When I did my comparisons, from the Griffin Dock, Woo3/650s and M^3/880s, the headphone out at _full volume_ sounded exactly the same as the line out of the dock. 

 Which amp/headphones are you using? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG


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## yukihiro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi

 That's curious. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 When you did your comparison, did you make sure the headphone out volume was 100%? When I did my comparisons, from the Griffin Dock, Woo3/650s and M^3/880s, the headphone out at full volume sounded exactly the same as the line out of the dock. 

 Which amp/headphones are you using? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 USG_

 

Yeah, well I've been amping the headphone out at 100% for a while now so I know what it sounds like. I mean, the difference isn't night and day, but I do hear a difference between the two. I wasn't expecting to hear a difference though. 

 I've tried it with everything in my sig. So e5>sr325i/es7 and pa2v2>sr325i/es7. The biggest difference was when I hooked up the e5. Amping the headphone out, I already noticed that the pa2v2 sounded "better" than the e5, but when I amped the line out the difference was even more apparent. I feel like it made my pa2v2 sound "better" and made my e5 sound "worse." Not sure if that makes any sense. lol

 Of course, it could all just be a mental thing, but I'm almost positive it's an actual difference.


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## TopQuark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yukihiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The details are a little more apparent and the sound is a little more neutral. I think I can actually hear how the amps are supposed to sound now._

 

Can you comment on the soundstage and transparency? Was there any effect? Do you notice any separation of the instruments?

 ClieOS - Big Thanks for the clear instruction!


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yukihiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, well I've been amping the headphone out at 100% for a while now so I know what it sounds like. I mean, the difference isn't night and day, but I do hear a difference between the two. I wasn't expecting to hear a difference though. 

 I've tried it with everything in my sig. So e5>sr325i/es7 and pa2v2>sr325i/es7. The biggest difference was when I hooked up the e5. Amping the headphone out, I already noticed that the pa2v2 sounded "better" than the e5, but when I amped the line out the difference was even more apparent. I feel like it made my pa2v2 sound "better" and made my e5 sound "worse." Not sure if that makes any sense. lol

 Of course, it could all just be a mental thing, but I'm almost positive it's an actual difference._

 



 Curious.... low impedance Vs high imp

 I have two docks, one in my office and one at home. Tested them both with the same results. Headphone jack had the cleaner signal. 

 What mini to mini are you using? I used a nothing special DIY I made last year.

 USG


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## ClieOS

What you see depends on what you're looking for.

 - Anonymous


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*I just want to point out that the diyLOD isn't carbon copy of Griffin dock, so that could account for audible difference (beside the fact that LO and HO are different, see below*). In the Griffin dock, there are decoupling SMD caps (220mF, 6.3V) in both L/R channels and 100K resistors bypass (downstream of caps). Both caps and resistors are not included in the current V1 diyLOD (no place to fit anyway).*

 I am not sure what the resistors are for but I'll include decoupling caps in the V2 diyLOD once I got my Ridax connector - no SMD of course, I'll use some Panasonic audio caps instead. I have ordered a Griffin dock as well, just so I don't have to play with cable when sync. I'll make a comparison once I received it.

 *Also, I have re-read all the previous comments made on the original LOD thread at Sansa forum and exchanged some PM with sansafix on the Fuze's hardware detail. He has confirmed most of the points I made in post #2, plus some more. I'll update the thread when I have the time to sum everything up. So stay tuned._

 



 Good Points.... 

 Maybe the caps and the resistors are there for some protective reason because the dock also charges the Fuze as it plays.

 Hey I have a question: When you jumper the pins to supply the necessary voltage to enable the line out, how does it effect the battery and the charging circuit?

 Anyway, I'll be interested in your impressions of how the Dock sounds when you get it. 

 USG


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## ClieOS

The caps and the resistor are not linked directly to the USB part of the dock (though they share the same ground inside Fuze). My guess is they are all part of the decoupling design. If you are connecting the Griffin dock to a big pre-amp or a power amp, I would imagine you don't want any spike from the amp to feedback to the Fuze. For portable amp the issue is less apparent. For instant, I can hear some distortion when I turn the volume on some of my amps, but not always.

 As for power, I didn't notice any significant increase in battery drain. All I can say is I haven't change my charging schedule (usually every two or three days) after I start to use LOD. My diyLOD can't be used when charged, so it won't be affected by the charging circuit (pin 7 is only there to enable LO, AFAIK). If you are planning to make a LOD+charge cable, I'll advice you not to jump pin7 and 22, but pin7 and pin1 (USB +5V) with a 47k ohm resistor (same as Griffin dock, I think _waino _also did this for his Fuze car adapter). Whether pin7 + 22 jump can be used when charging is out of my knowledge for now.


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## 14124all

Charging works fine with the pin 7 to 22 jump. If you modify an existing Sandisk cable with the jump and addin the lineout audio connections (pis 27,28, gnd) to a mini plug or RCA jacks, you do NOT loose any functionality of the original cable. You can disconnect or reconnect to a charger with the player running and it will not hiccup. The cable will still work fine for data transfer, as the original circuit is not altered. The only change is that if the cable is connected, lineout is activated and headphone out is disabled. 
 ClieOS, you may want to rethink your using of the USB +5v to 47k to pin 7 setup. You will have to be connected to a USB port or adapter to get the lineout enable. If you want to use the cable while playing back from battery power in the Fuze, it won't work. The pin 22 to pin 7 jump will work on battery or USB power as long as the cable is connected.


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## ClieOS

Hi 14124all, thanks for the clear up. I haven't really gave any deep thought about LOD+charge cable as it really doesn't interest me. My main goal is just the LOD cable for my portable amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway, I received my Ridax connector today so I am able to finish the diyLOD v2 ahead of schedule. I am still in process of writing it up but here is a preview (see post #2 if you want to read more):






 After all the painful pin soldering, I think I am done with DIY for a while.


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## 14124all

ClieOS, Another fantastic job! Wow, that connector doesn't leave much room for anything! Just so you know, you're v2 drawing of the Griffin decoupler is correct, 220uF cap in series and 100k resistor in parallel for each channel.


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## yukihiro

That's awesome. I think I'm still going to buy a few Ridax connectors and make some more LOD's for my Fuze. I'll probably be using your v2 write-up. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I noticed that the line out signal is louder than the headphone out at 100%. Is that just how it is?

 Today I finally tested the LOD with my car's aux input and noticed an even bigger difference in the sound through my car's sound system. When connecting through the headphone out, it seemed like some detail was lost even when I turned the volume up. However, with the line out it sounds a lot better. I knew there was a difference with the headphones, but it wasn't that drastic. Through my car's speakers I noticed an even bigger difference.

 These are just my thoughts. Again, it could all be mental, but I'm pretty positive it's not lol.


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## ClieOS

Hi everyone, the diyLOD v2 portion has been updated, see post #2! 

 Again, I wanna thanks 14124all for confirming the decoupling circuit.


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## TopQuark

All we have to wait now are the reviews! I am interested to see how Sansa's AMS DAC compares to iMOD.


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## prone2phone

hi ClieOS, if this LOD sounds more neutral, could it help with my pk1 sibilance?


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## ClieOS

Believing requires action.

 - James E. Faust


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *prone2phone* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_hi ClieOS, if this LOD sounds more neutral, could it help with my pk1 sibilance?_

 

How do you know the sibilance isn't on your recording?

 USG


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## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TopQuark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All we have to wait now are the reviews! I am interested to see how Sansa's AMS DAC compares to iMOD._

 

Follwing by the Degradation-Of-Sound-As-Times-Goes-By law, the Wolfson DAC probablly sounds better. Otherwise Apple would still implement them in iPods.
 I don't think peeps are going to compare the iMod to the Fuze/Clip. Either because the iMod is too awesome or they fear the outcome


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## Hooran

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Follwing by the Degradation-Of-Sound-As-Times-Goes-By law, the Wolfson DAC probablly sounds better. Otherwise Apple would still implement them in iPods.
 I don't think peeps are going to compare the iMod to the Fuze/Clip. Either because the iMod is too awesome or they fear the outcome _

 

I think it is the latter.


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## pdupiano

Hey Clios thanks for the faq's I just finished a Ver1 and I'm gonna place an order for the caps and resistors to work on ver2. Works great. Do you know if you still have to put the volume to about 40% to run it at Line out Level for ver2? Or is that just a Ver1 glitch.


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## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Clios thanks for the faq's I just finished a Ver1 and I'm gonna place an order for the caps and resistors to work on ver2. Works great. Do you know if you still have to put the volume to about 40% to run it at Line out Level for ver2? Or is that just a Ver1 glitch._

 

No, those are old firmware issue. If you have the latest firmware, volume will be disabled once the LO mode is engaged (as you plugged the dock in) and LO will output at a fixed voltage. Once the dock is removed, the previous volume setting will be restored. So you should update to the latest firmware ASAP.

 Also, you should experiment with the resistors first. I don't find them to be necessary for the decoupling, and it is possible they will worsen stereo crosstalk. 

 Check under your Fuze system setting to find out what hardware revision your Fuze is (indicated by the first two digit of the firmware). The latest firmware version are:
 Fuze rev.1 - firmware 0*1*.01.22 
 Fuze rev.2 - firmware 0*2*.01.17


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## pdupiano

Thanks for the firmware info, I was running an old version. Works like a charm. I'm gonna try to make a few docks for other people, I'm just trying to think of a way of concealing the caps, I think your's looks pretty nice, but some might not like having electronic components sticking out of their docks. too bad they don't have fat docks for sansa's. 

 Thanks again


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## phangtonpower

Hey Clie os, so you are saying that the caps may not be a good idea anyway. I don't know if you have any experience with the Hornet, but do you think there would be distortion when turning up the pot on it using the V1? If you think it is beneficial for that amp, where can I order the caps? I live in Japan and the only site I could find had a ridiculous shipping charge for 5 caps, or if you have any extra caps laying around, you think you can send some my way? 
 By the way I loved the Clie series wish they still made them. Had the UX50


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## ClieOS

No, I didn't have any RSA to try out, but I would suspect it will behave the same way it does to most of my amps (XM3 and E5 is fine, but cmoy, 3MOVE and all other have the problem). I order mine from Farnell, which I believe has a distributor in Japan. They offer free shipping locally (after the order excess certain price (about US$6), or pay a very small shipping fee (also about US$6)), maybe they have the same policy there as well. Hope that help.


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## phangtonpower

Thanks for the info...Now I have to learn to read Japanese
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh no!! It's gonna cost me $20 to order 6 caps and have it shipped with in Japan
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If there is anyone who has some of these things laying around please message me if you want to get rid of some...


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## ClieOS

I was trying to be creative on the placement on the caps and here is the result - the diyLOD v2i (right).


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## epithetless

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was trying to be creative on the placement on the caps and here is the result - the diyLOD v2i (right).




_

 

Ooh...v2i looks even better! Very nice, ClieOS.


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was trying to be creative on the placement on the caps and here is the result - the diyLOD v2i (right).




_

 

Very Very Nice Work Clie............

 Were you able to compare your line out with the line out from the Griffin dock?

 USG


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## necropimp

i'd love to have one of these but i'm not that good at soldering


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## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *upstateguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Were you able to compare your line out with the line out from the Griffin dock?_

 

No, not yet. I used snail mail to cut down the shipping cost so I don't think it will arrive any time soon (I am not in any hurry anyway).


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## coolbluewater

Well ClieOS, looks like you nailed the design with v2.
 Just let me know when you start selling them


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## Peyotero

I love ClieOS!



 EDIT: oops wrong thread...


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## 14124all

For those interested in using the Fuze LO Cable on the E200 series players. It will not work in the current configuration. I tested with my original lineout cable and no dice. The problem must be that pin 22 on the E200 series does not have the 1-3 volt needed to enable pin 7. When I have time, I'll see if there is a suitable pin to use on the E200 series to feed pin 7 from. If there is, it will be a simple change to the original DIY cables to have the pin 7 jump go to the correct pin instead of pin 22.


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## ClieOS

Thanks for the info, 14124all.


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## yukihiro

Awesome 14124all. If you find out which pin can supply the right voltage then my e260 may start to get some playing time again.

 ClieOS, I can't wait to try your v2 this weekend. All the stuff I ordered should be coming in this week. Nichicon 220uf 6.3v audio capacitors should pretty much be the same as the Panasonic ones you used, right? That's what I ended up getting since I ordered from Mouser.


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## ClieOS

Any good quality cap is fine. I just like those Panasonic caps because of the color 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## necropimp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *14124all* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those interested in using the Fuze LO Cable on the E200 series players. It will not work in the current configuration. I tested with my original lineout cable and no dice. The problem must be that pin 22 on the E200 series does not have the 1-3 volt needed to enable pin 7. When I have time, I'll see if there is a suitable pin to use on the E200 series to feed pin 7 from. If there is, it will be a simple change to the original DIY cables to have the pin 7 jump go to the correct pin instead of pin 22._

 

good thing i didn't pry apart one of my spare cables then


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## ClieOS

the steeper the mountain the harder the climb the better the view from the finishing line

 - Anonymous


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## Peyotero

Would it (in theory) make sense to go with different caps, let's say some higher grade stuff, or do you think only the specs are of any significance in this case?


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## ClieOS

Different kind of caps do have impact on SQ. For example, BlackGate is usually the favorite choice for audio application (though it is harder to get and more expensive), not to mention those really expensive Vcap people like to pair with iMod. You can experiment with different kind of caps to find what you believe to sound best, but I'll advise you to at least use caps with high capacitance (to make sure the low end won't get cut out since those caps also function as high pass filter). I chose 200uF, 6.3V caps because I know they will work (as the same type are used in Griffin dock), and Panasonic audio grade is relatively easy to get. I am planning to try out some good Rubycon caps as well, but not any time soon. BTW, if you can, use non-polar caps.


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## Bon_DC2

Looks great! I wish I could do that!


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## yukihiro

I made a couple of the v2 ones... OMG it's such a pain to get everything to fit inside the connector for the caps.

 btw, thanks again ClieOS. Couldn't have done it without your guide.







 a little blurry...


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yukihiro* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I made a couple of the v2 ones... OMG it's such a pain to get everything to fit inside the connector for the caps.

 btw, thanks again ClieOS. Couldn't have done it without your guide.






 a little blurry...



_

 


 Hey, very nice work Y

 How does it sound compared to full volume from the headphone jack?

 I suppose we should realize that unlike an ipod, there is no analog amplifier to be bypassed by a line out..... IIRC, in the Fuze everything is done digitally by the chip.... No?

 USG


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## ClieOS

Pretty good job there, yukihiro. How are those Nichicon caps sound like, I wonder? I also ordered some Nichicon caps as well, but they are bi-polar and have smaller capacitance.

 @USG:
 There is an analog amp insides (and if you count loosely, three actually) but it is integrated on the SoC, thus it is not possible to bypass. Fuze's gain steps (volume control) are mostly analog in nature. Only the lower section of the gain steps are fully digital. This is done so that the gain steps can be extended to 40 steps instead of the original 32 steps the analog amp is capable of. The caps are there to filter out the DC component of the line-out signal (same function as in diyMod).


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pretty good job there, yukihiro. How are those Nichicon caps sound like, I wonder? I also ordered some Nichicon caps as well, but they are bi-polar and have smaller capacitance.

 @USG:
 There is an analog amp insides (and if you count loosely, three actually) but it is integrated on the SoC, thus it is not possible to bypass. Fuze's gain steps (volume control) are mostly analog in nature. Only the lower section of the gain steps are fully digital. This is done so that the gain steps can be extended to 40 steps instead of the original 32 steps the analog amp is capable of. The caps are there to filter out the DC component of the line-out signal (same function as in diyMod)._

 

As long as we're on the same page that a line out from a Fuze is not going to have a fraction of the impact that a line out from an ipod will have.

 USG


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## ClieOS

Without hard work, nothing grows but weeds.

 - Gordon B. Hinckley


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## upstateguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Of course not. Beside the sheer number of iPod users out there, iMod's / diyMod's LO improvement over headphone-out / original LO are much more obvious. In contrast, Fuze's LO is more about finding another way to tap into what has already been considered to be very good sounding. I would imagine the ratio b/w the skill / hard work required (for making diyLOD) and the benefit from using it will never be like as significant as iMod / diyMod_

 

On the other hand, if you were somehow able to attach an ipod female to the other end of your LO dock we could tap into the "sheer number" of ipod docking accessories out there.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	
















 just wishful thinking Clie...

 USG


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## xPro_MetheuSx

Very interesting.I think good job.


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## jacc1234

Any info on what might be possible with the e200 series would be great. I know you said you were going to look into it and if you find anything one way or the other please post it.

 Thanks for the great guide for the fuze!


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## epithetless

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jacc1234* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any info on what might be possible with the e200 series would be great. I know you said you were going to look into it and if you find anything one way or the other please post it.

 Thanks for the great guide for the fuze!_

 

Agreed on both counts!


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## Punnisher

Does the Fuze even need coupling capacitors? You'd only need them if you are reading DC voltage from the output. If it does not have DC voltage, you probably don't need coupling capacitors.


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## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Punnisher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the Fuze even need coupling capacitors? You'd only need them if you are reading DC voltage from the output. If it does not have DC voltage, you probably don't need coupling capacitors._

 

I should have add this info to the first page (just did): there is an 1.4V DC offset on Fuze line-out. Depends on the kind of amp you used (whether it has a DC filter or not), you can choose to use diyLOD v1 (amp with DC filter) or v2 (amp w/o DC filter).


----------



## epithetless

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I should have add this info to the first page (just did): there is an 1.4V DC offset on Fuze line-out. Depends on the kind of amp you used (whether it has a DC filter or not), you can choose to use diyLOD v1 (amp with DC filter) or v2 (amp w/o DC filter)._

 

Pardon my ignorance, but how does one know which amps have a DC filter and which ones don't?


----------



## ClieOS

If it is DIY amp, you'll need to look at the schematic to see if there are caps (one on each channel) b/w the opamp and the input signal. You will also likely to find a bypass (to ground) resistor b/w the caps and the opamp. That will be an input DC filter (look at post #2 about the DC filter design in Griffin dock).

 Many amp do not have input filter as it is considered unneeded (as most source already have one inside) and potentially SQ degrading. You can ask the builder / manufacturer to find out more. A simple test to do will be feeding the amp in question a signal with DC offset than measure the output. If there is DC offset on the output as well, than you'll know there is no DC filter in the amp.


----------



## Punnisher

Great. Thanks for adding that info.

 You might want to make it a very obvious recommendation to use coupling caps, since using this LOD without them could be potentially harmful to many amplifiers or headphones.

 I may need to pick up a Fuze now...


----------



## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Punnisher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might want to make it a very obvious recommendation to use coupling caps, since using this LOD without them could be potentially harmful to many amplifiers or headphones.._

 

Already did


----------



## phangtonpower

Ok so I tried this Mod with complete failure. I guess the cable I was using was little stiff, so when I tried to put it back together, one of the pins that the cable was soldered on too snapped off
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Anyway I'm gonna order a couple more connectors and have another go at it. But I do have a question and the answer may be very obvious, but is it ok to snap of the pins that aren't being used?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phangtonpower* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is it ok to snap of the pins that aren't being used?_

 

Sure, I do it all the time to make sure there won't be any accidental short. Do make sure to only snap off those not in need.


----------



## fixit5561

Ok I just did my very first DIY with making this cable for my Sansa fuze. I used a Radio shack 1/8" jack the Gold Series, soldered on no screws.

 I have 2 questions. 

 Also just how bad are the Radio Shack 1/8" jacks?

 And does the FIIO5 amp have caps in it? As in, do I have to make another one, the Sansa Fuze LODv2 for the FIIO5? 

 Thanks for the mod this is great and I think I am now hooked on DIY in electronics. Now Im waiting for my FIIO 5 amp to arrive so that I can try it out. I always have been DIY around the house too so this fits right in as I already had almost all the tools I needed already.

 Thanks
 Brian


----------



## ClieOS

RadioShack's jack is fine. Expensive jacks are more for the look than the function.

 Last I tested, I do believe there are input caps in E5, but not on E3.


----------



## fixit5561

Ok I just finished up an rca jack mod that has the 2 rca's on one end and a 3.5mm female plug on the other. I hooked this up to my stereo in the garage and then plugged the sansa LODv1 into the female 3.5mm and I get sound out of both channels but the vocals in the left side are not there, only vocals out of the right side. Any ideas why this is happening? Im using the sansa fuze with FLAC converted album so the sound is good but missing the vocals on the left side.

 When I hook up through the HO on the sanza with an RCA's on the other end to the stereo I get great sound with vocals coming out of both sides no problem. 

 Any ideas what could be wrong?

 Thanks in advance
 Brian


----------



## ClieOS

I would guess there might be a bad soldering joint somewhere in the left channel signaling path.


----------



## v3nom

Found my next DIY!! THanks!


----------



## average_joe

Was about 1 day away from finishing my Fuze LOD (first DIY project in quite some time) and my Fuze batter stopped charging. So I finished it and waited. Well, it arrived today and I am using my LOD with my E5, and it works! It is not perfect, but I did learn/remember a lot during this build (and spent a good amount upgrading my tools)!

 I have the complete circuit, caps and resistors. I didn't see it here, so here are some pics.

















 And has anyone tested with and without the resistors?


----------



## ClieOS

I tried 33K resistors before (which is what I have at hand), but didn't notice much change.


----------



## LingLing1337

Clie, do you have any tips regarding soldering those tiny pins? I have gone through 2 docks now trying to make the DIYlod.


----------



## ClieOS

You want to use a small soldering tip on a relatively low power iron when you are dealing with pin (at least that is how it works for me). You might also want to snap off the unused pins to get easier access.


----------



## average_joe

I snapped pin7, which was my first solder, because the wire was too stiff. So I soldered to the stub of pin 7 and it works! I took apart a USB cable and used the wires from that for the internals. Also, I don't have the greatest soldering iron or the thinnest tip, but lots of flux helps the solder melt almost instantaneously. Also, I hold the assembly and wire together with clips and a single touch with the iron and solder at the same time completes my joint.

 But I understand the frustration as my soldering iron has a rather large tip. I am probably going to buy the ZD 99 Solder Station.

 I also tried to solder a mini B USB receptacle so I could charge while using the LOD, but because of the size of the pins and my iron, I couldn't kept having 2 pins shorting, so I just pulled them off. With a Sansa cable with the board pined out for USB I think that would be much easier to implement.

 Does anyone know where I can get an official Sansa Fuze cable, as I didn't see one on the Sansa site? Although I could just buy a Griffen Powerdock for $40.


----------



## ClieOS

Maximo product also sell a licensed Sansa cable which looks the same as the original. I also saw a few 'original' cable flowing around eBay a while ago but not sure they are still around.

 Also, I find 28~32AWG cable to be the easiest to work with. Any thing bigger than 24AWG will be very difficult.


----------



## phangtonpower

Thank you so much Clieos!!


----------



## LingLing1337

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You want to use a small soldering tip on a relatively low power iron when you are dealing with pin (at least that is how it works for me). You might also want to snap off the unused pins to get easier access._

 

Thanks for the tips, Clie. Next time I'll snap off those tiny, pesky pins that I don't use.


----------



## ClieOS

This will probably be my last experiment with diyLOD: Belden 1804A mini star quad cable with 28AWG high-conductivity silver-plated copper alloy conductors, Nichicon bi-polar ES series 100uF, 6.3V.

 Gonna love those green caps!


----------



## fixit5561

Hey everyone,

 I finished up my LOD, had a bug in it last week and I put it away till this morning. Well my Fuzes battery is running low so I figured Id try my Sansa View and it works!!, the LOD works for the Sansa View also. 
 The sound is way better than out of the HO in using my cmoy. Coming out of the HO I have the cmoy volumne up all the way and the Fuze about half for a good loud volumne. With the LOD I have my cmoy set abut 1/4 and it is great, cant listen over 1/2 volumne you will end up deaf!LOL
 Brian


----------



## ClieOS

Thanks for the info, Brian. Glad to know that you like the dock.


----------



## Peyotero

What does it mean? The signal is stronger out of the LOD vs HO?

 Nice Ogre caps btw


----------



## fixit5561

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Peyotero* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What does it mean? The signal is stronger out of the LOD vs HO?

 Nice Ogre caps btw 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes I do believe so, when I use the two different set ups (the LOD vs HO) there is a huge difference, atleast with my setup of a Sansa Fuze and cmoy.

 Brian


----------



## ClieOS

...the way I see it, you can either run from it, or learn from it. - The Lion King

 - Rafikki


----------



## smeggy

Anybody wanna make one of these for me, I don't have time at the moment.


----------



## average_joe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I tried 33K resistors before (which is what I have at hand), but didn't notice much change._

 

What change did you notice? Also, do you think a 2.7V cap will work?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *average_joe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What change did you notice? Also, do you think a 2.7V cap will work?_

 

No much, in fact, none - hence I decide not to use them. As long as the caps are big enough (like >47uF) and you follow the right procedure on power up / down (volume at minimum at first), there is really no need to put in those resistors.

 A 2.7V is probably pushing the limit. IIRC, the peak-to-peak AC output can be as high as 2V, so you want something in much higher rating to make sure the peak won't go over what the caps can handle. I'll recommend 6.3V to be the minimum, anything higher won't hurt. My own experience is, bi-polar cap above 6.3V is usually easier to find anyway.


----------



## average_joe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No much, in fact, none - hence I decide not to use them. As long as the caps are big enough (like >47uF) and you follow the right procedure on power up / down (volume at minimum at first), there is really no need to put in those resistors.

 A 2.7V is probably pushing the limit. IIRC, the peak-to-peak AC output can be as high as 2V, so you want something in much higher rating to make sure the peak won't go over what the caps can handle. I'll recommend 6.3V to be the minimum, anything higher won't hurt. My own experience is, bi-polar cap above 6.3V is usually easier to find anyway._

 

So if I am lazy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and don't turn the volume down on the amp, the resistors are a good idea. Really not a big cost and only a little more soldering.

 And from what I have read the caps will play a huge part in how the LOD sounds. I went with Blackgate caps but paid way too much for them with shipping and the extra charge for not hitting a minimum charge. I was wondering about the lower voltage since I found some EVerCAPs at Digikey in 2.7V, and they are smaller, but sounds like they won't work. I am still looking for other caps that have great sonic qualities at Newark, Mouser, or Digikey to save on shipping by ordering everything from one place. What are your thoughts on the quality of the caps?

 Edit: do you know where I can find (or a part number) for the Ridax connector?


----------



## ClieOS

Beside serving as shunt, those resistors also play a role in impedance matching too. If you are lazy, just use the 100K value, or else you can calculate the required value based on the caps value + amp impedance. 

 Impedance (R) in this case should be 1/R = 1/amp impedance + 1/bypass resistor

 Than the corner freq. is f = 1/(2*pi*C*R), where C is capacitance, and R is the input impedance of the amplifier (which is the combined impedance from above).

 The goal is to keep f as small as possible, hopefully 10x smaller than the minimum freq. (which is 20Hz, as our hearing limit dictated) in order to minimize distortion. The point is, you want to adjust C and R to make sure f will be 2Hz or less, the lower the better. You also want to take into the account of the fact that amp impedance changes with amp volume, so you want to use the minimum input impedance of the amp to do the calculation. 

 I have tried Nichicon VP series with very good result, though it is not made fro audio purpose. Nichicon ES series will be my choice since it is very transparent and still in production. Blackgate is probably very overkill since one of them can cost almost 2X more than the connector. If you don't mind the shape, you can try film caps like Wima with smaller capacitance but you must bypass it with a very high value resistor (like 100K or more). You can read this thread about where to find good caps.

 The part number fro Ridax connector is _SD_B. Sandisk/Creative dock connector plug ultra thin/black snap_ or _SD_W. Sandisk/Creative dock connector plug ultra thin/white snap_. The SD_U series is only good for v1 (capless). I have link on the first post.


----------



## mfaughn

In case anyone is wondering...you should use v2 if you are going into a Mini^3.

 I found this out when trying to drive my HD650s with my Mini^3. Sound cuts out at about %50 gain. Problem goes away when using the HO. I'm probably just going to put my caps in the middle of the cable somewhere and shrink 'em on there rather than open up the connector again. I don't want to try and scrape off the hot glue. 

 Thanks very much for sharing this info ClieOS. I notice a positive difference in SQ with the LOD.


----------



## ClieOS

Yeah, IIRC mini^3 doesn't have coupling caps build in (well, most portable these days don't have one anyway). If any of you isn't sure about which version to use, I will recommend v2, just to be on the safe side.


----------



## Baba booey

Great 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 How much would a V2 run if I bought it from a fellow head-fi'er? There was one on ebay, but it was like $43...


----------



## pdupiano

I figured I'd post this up





 Its a very VERY tight fit, but I figure I'd post pics before I cover it in glue and finish up the lod, this one took quite a bit of time.


----------



## epithetless

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I figured I'd post this up





 Its a very VERY tight fit, but I figure I'd post pics before I cover it in glue and finish up the lod, this one took quite a bit of time._

 

That's some nice spacial arrangement, pdupiano. Well done.


----------



## Peyotero

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I figured I'd post this up
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/o.../Fuze_V2-1.jpg

 Its a very VERY tight fit, but I figure I'd post pics before I cover it in glue and finish up the lod, this one took quite a bit of time._

 

Nicely done! I belive you'll able to find heatshrink of that size (I've seen pretty huge ones) to make it look more finished.


----------



## ClieOS

Sweet LOD there, pdupiano. I wonder, did you mix and match the connector plug with iPod connector housing to get extra space?


----------



## pdupiano

took out all the extra pins. If you do that you're left with the ground/left/right pins on one side and you can get an exact fit for the caps on the other side. Then you just have to get two small resistors and fit them underneath the ground. It was a pain but its definitely worth it, I'll take pics of the whole thing when I'm done.


----------



## pdupiano

Pics:
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/o...Fuze_LOD02.jpg
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/o...Fuze_Lod01.jpg
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/o...Fuze_Lod03.jpg

 I didn't wanna embed them since they're too big but it turned out nice and clean


----------



## average_joe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_took out all the extra pins. If you do that you're left with the ground/left/right pins on one side and you can get an exact fit for the caps on the other side. Then you just have to get two small resistors and fit them underneath the ground. It was a pain but its definitely worth it, I'll take pics of the whole thing when I'm done._

 

Looks great. What Sansa connector did you use, it doesn't look like the stock or Ridax connector?


----------



## pdupiano

I just used a ridax fuze connector with a large ipod connector, and glue it in


----------



## ClieOS

Yep, there simply not enough space inside if you are using the original connector housing.


----------



## metal112524

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I figured I'd post this up





 Its a very VERY tight fit, but I figure I'd post pics before I cover it in glue and finish up the lod, this one took quite a bit of time._

 

I wanna see the finished product. Post up pics when your done.


----------



## pdupiano

its up look above


----------



## robjrock

First of all, I'd just like to say, awesome mod!

 Second of all, I wonder if you could just use a generic sansa view line out cable (see link below,) cut it open & solder in a 3.5 mini jack?

AV Composite Cable for SanDisk Sansa View Series from Overstock.com

 £5 for a cable would be darn cheap and a lot simpler for noob DIYers...

 Finally, I'd love to see some more comments on how it actually sounds!


----------



## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *robjrock* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Second of all, I wonder if you could just use a generic sansa view line out cable (see link below,) cut it open & solder in a 3.5 mini jack?
 ...
 £5 for a cable would be darn cheap and a lot simpler for noob DIYers..._

 

I doubt it will have the extra pins inside that you can solder with. To cut cost, generic cable usually comes only with the pins in use but not more.


----------



## pdupiano

your right clieos, actually I took apart a generic charger that someone gave me for my ipod and after opening it up it only had the pins for ground and power. Not only that but the other slots were covered in plastic. So basically even if I had extra pins, they were completely useless.


----------



## metal112524

Anybody using e5, are you using v1 or v2.


----------



## ClieOS

I am using v1 with E5, cmoy, and XM3. v2 for 3MOVE and T4.


----------



## S J

Do you remember how big those caps were pdupiano (or have a part number from somewhere)? Trying to get an idea of what will fit in the connector...


----------



## Postal_Blue

So this does work with the Sansa view? I got a 8gb View in a Woot BoC with a jacked up HP out so this may be a fun little project to revive an otherwise useless toy.


----------



## pdupiano

I pretty much ordered the smallest size caps I could find on mouser (electrolytic)


----------



## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Postal_Blue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So this does work with the Sansa view? I got a 8gb View in a Woot BoC with a jacked up HP out so this may be a fun little project to revive an otherwise useless toy._

 

My guess is not. Sansa View already has a dedicated line-out on the dock that you can buy a readily-made cable (which also has a video-out as well). You don't really need to make the LOD for Sansa View.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pdupiano* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I pretty much ordered the smallest size caps I could find on mouser (electrolytic)_

 

The smallest (and currently still in production) bi-polar electrolytic caps I can find is 11mm x 5mm (length x diameter). But for better capacitance value, you might want to look into 11mm x 6.3mm as well, though I am not sure whether it can still fit inside the dock.


----------



## Jolly Bodger

I've no chance of making one of these myself, it's just too small and 'fiddly' for me!

 Anyone want to sell me one?

 JB


----------



## S J

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jolly Bodger* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've no chance of making one of these myself, it's just too small and 'fiddly' for me!

 Anyone want to sell me one?

 JB_

 

I just ordered parts enough for three (in case I screw up... lol) If I have left-overs I'll make you one if you're still looking. There was one for sale in the FS forums earlier this week too, might want to look in to that.


----------



## S J

Got my parts and finished an LOD (without breaking anything!!). Like pdupiano, I got a large iPod connector and put the caps inside the casing; I wasn't confident I could get the resistors into the connector, so those went in the Switchcraft plug. 

 Sadly I clipped the cable a litttttle bit short and/or underestimated its stiffness, so it won't bend quite far enough to let my Fuze/Pico sit on top of each other... have to use a rubber band on the U-bend part to hold it close enough or theres a ton of torque on the jacks. But thats what I have spare parts for... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, great guide! I'll put up pics as soon as I can steal a camera from somewhere...


----------



## reviri

Amazing!!!
 Can it be use with a e2XX V2 ?


----------



## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *reviri* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amazing!!!
 Can it be use with a e2XX V2 ?_

 

This will answer your question:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *14124all* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those interested in using the Fuze LO Cable on the E200 series players. It will not work in the current configuration. I tested with my original lineout cable and no dice. The problem must be that pin 22 on the E200 series does not have the 1-3 volt needed to enable pin 7. When I have time, I'll see if there is a suitable pin to use on the E200 series to feed pin 7 from. If there is, it will be a simple change to the original DIY cables to have the pin 7 jump go to the correct pin instead of pin 22._


----------



## marksj

ClieOS,
 I was wondering if you could tell me what pins to use to make an Ipod to Fuze cable(or if it will even work).There are several ipod hookups in the market place and very few Fuze.With a female Ipod end connected to a male Fuze end it could open the possibilities out there.Thanks for any input.


----------



## ClieOS

This should give you an idea.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a quick look at iPod's pinout, and I think it is possible to create a male(Fuze)-to-female(iPod) connector just to get the line-out signal. All you need to do is wire: 
 1) Pin 27 (Fuze) to pin 3 (iPod).
 2) Pin 28 (Fuze) to pin 4 (iPod)
 3) Pin 29 (Fuze) to pin 2 (iPod)_

 


 Note, you still have to jump the pin 7 and 22 on Fuze's side and install some caps on the R/L channels. Also, I am assuming there is no 'activation' pin on iPod's side (I am not an iPod user so I don't know how it works). You will have to test it out for yourself.


----------



## reviri

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *14124all* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those interested in using the Fuze LO Cable on the E200 series players. It will not work in the current configuration. I tested with my original lineout cable and no dice. The problem must be that pin 22 on the E200 series does not have the 1-3 volt needed to enable pin 7. When I have time, I'll see if there is a suitable pin to use on the E200 series to feed pin 7 from. If there is, it will be a simple change to the original DIY cables to have the pin 7 jump go to the correct pin instead of pin 22._

 

We're looking forward that


----------



## reviri

Can't wait for *14124all*'s report, and I did it by myself.

 It works on my e280 *V2*, what I did is just followed what *ClieOS* did: jumped the pin #7 and pin #22. 

 I think the reason is : the e2X0 *V2* has the same chip with fuze, but the e2X0 *V1* has not.

 So if you have a e2X0 *V2*, just follow this post.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *reviri* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can't wait for *14124all*'s report, and I did it by myself.

 It works on my e280 *V2*, what I did is just followed what *ClieOS* did: jumped the pin #7 and pin #22. 

 I think the reason is : the e2X0 *V2* has the same chip with fuze, but the e2X0 *V1* has not.

 So if you have a e2X0 *V2*, just follow this post.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







_

 


 Cool news!
 I have a e280R... how do you know if you have a v2? I seem to read about this awhile ago. Was it that you have to remove the cover and something was printed on the inside? Or was it if you were using a particular version?


----------



## ClieOS

If it is anything like Fuze, there will be indicated by the firmware version when you check it in the setting (only guessing here).

 @ reviri, did you check the L/R channels output for DC offset before wiring?


----------



## epithetless

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BlizzofOZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cool news!
 I have a e280R... how do you know if you have a v2? I seem to read about this awhile ago. Was it that you have to remove the cover and something was printed on the inside? Or was it if you were using a particular version?_

 

The only way to be sure whether or not you have a v2 (since Sandisk wasn't very particular about matching external casing and internal hardware) is to check the firmware version. If it's 3.XX.XX, you have a v2. If it's 1.XX.XX, you have a v1. All true e200R (Rhapsody) models are v1, by the way.


----------



## BlizzofOZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *epithetless* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only way to be sure whether or not you have a v2 (since Sandisk wasn't very particular about matching external casing and internal hardware) is to check the firmware version. If it's 3.XX.XX, you have a v2. If it's 1.XX.XX, you have a v1. All true e200R (Rhapsody) models are v1, by the way._

 


 Looks like I have ver 1... I have 1.XX.XX. I knew I looked at this waaay back when I installed Rockbox on it.

 Cool... I have an extra cord lying around, be fun to try it out!


----------



## reviri

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If it is anything like Fuze, there will be indicated by the firmware version when you check it in the setting (only guessing here).

 @ reviri, did you check the L/R channels output for DC offset before wiring?_

 

Sorry, I don't know how to check the "DC offset"
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Does it need some equipments? 

 I didn't make some further test(you can see that I didn't take the USB cable away, because I only have one cable), I just connected it to a plug and I heard the music frome the headphone amp, so I thought it succeed.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *reviri* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, I don't know how to check the "DC offset"
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Does it need some equipments? 

 I didn't make some further test(you can see that I didn't take the USB cable away, because I only have one cable), I just connected it to a plug and I heard the music frome the headphone amp, so I thought it succeed._

 

You will need a voltmeter (or multimeter) and measure left / right channel against the ground channel. If there is a DC offset, you will see a small voltage (most likely 1~2V). If there isn't any, the voltmeter should show 0V or something very small (like 0.01V), which usually is background noise.


----------



## reviri

I did the test, between the left / right channel and ground channel, there was 1.43V. 

 So, does that mean the e200 V2 should use diyLOD V2?


----------



## S J

Yep; not using the caps in the v2 design to cancel out the offset could lead to you damaging your amp/headphones.


----------



## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *reviri* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, does that mean the e200 V2 should use diyLOD V2?_

 

Most definitely, unless your amp has input DC filter. You won't want to actually burn your headphone via high voltage, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, I finally couldn't stop myself from ordering some really expensive Black Gate NX HiQ for more experiment, especially since Parts Connection is having a spring sale event right now. I don't expect them to come in a week or two (need more connectors as well), but I will keep you guys updated on how Black Gate compare to the Nichicon ES I am using now. Stay tuned.


----------



## S J

I put blackgates NX's in mine; it sounds really nice, though I don't have any other caps to put in for comparison... tbh the biggest difference for me between using the LOD and a mini-mini cable is that now I don't accidentally change the volume when I put my hand in my pocket or when I do skip track/pause and stuff without looking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That was seriously annoying me before lol. Also seems to be less background noise, though that may be due more to the LOD being at 'max volume' whereas before I used it at 3/4 or so. I haven't had time to sit down and do some comparative listening between the LOD and the headphone out yet, but I'll get around to it sometime soon.

 I just chose the blackgates because they were the smallest caps around, and people seem to get good results from them in imod LODs. If you're handy with a dremel tool, I think you could even cut out part of the metal shield in the slim ridax connector and fit the caps inside the casing. Without the shield, I know that NX-22/6.3Vs will fit vertically (5x7mm diameter x length), though I didn't try a full assembly because I don't have a dremel tool on hand. I don't think the more popular NX-47s will fit though, as iirc they are 6.3mm in diameter; for those you'd have to use the large Ipod connector

 Once again, the guide was excellent; I haven't touched a soldering iron since my 8th grade science fair project (like 7 years ago) and I still got everything to work out, no problems at all!


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## yukihiro

^ I think there is less background noise from the line out. I've been using mine for a while and I think the line out sounds cleaner.


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## ClieOS

You might want to get those Black Gate some time to settle in before any serious auditioning. BG are known to require an extensive burn-in period and many recommend 200 hrs for the least. I would think a minimum 50 hrs should be sufficient.


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## average_joe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am using v1 with E5, cmoy, and XM3. v2 for 3MOVE and T4._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, I finally couldn't stop myself from ordering some really expensive Black Gate NX HiQ for more experiment, especially since Parts Connection is having a spring sale event right now. I don't expect them to come in a week or two (need more connectors as well), but I will keep you guys updated on how Black Gate compare to the Nichicon ES I am using now. Stay tuned._

 

How do the ES caps compare to no caps with you E5, cmoy, and XM3?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *S J* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also seems to be less background noise, though that may be due more to the LOD being at 'max volume' whereas before I used it at 3/4 or so. I haven't had time to sit down and do some comparative listening between the LOD and the headphone out yet, but I'll get around to it sometime soon._

 

Here is the response from sansafix on forums.sandisk.com:
 "_The HP output is from a different signal path on the PCB vs the Line out. Line out is slightly better performance in specs because there is no circuitry in the path that is required by the FM antenna which is implemented from the HP cable. So separation and SMR is slightly better._"

 So it does sound better. Anyone know where I can look at a circuit diagram of the Fuze LO and HP out?


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## ClieOS

You were not born a winner, and you were not born a loser. You are what you make yourself be.

 - Lou Holtz


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## average_joe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With XM3, v1 is ultra clean. I can hear all the very fine detail with it. v2 tend to have better bass attack and fuller mid (effect of the caps no doubt) , but at the cost of (a bit) fine detail. You probably won't notice the slight detail loss unless you are using very detail sounding 'phone like RE0 or ER4. In comparison, v2 is a bit colored, but the degree is very small and close to undetectable unless you are ABX'ing. I am referring to the Nichicon ES caps I am currently using (and VP series sound close to ES), not sure how other caps will sound_

 

I have A/Bed 4 different caps in LODs: BG NX 220uF, Nichicon KT 220uF, Panasonic ECE 47uF, and Nichicon VP 47uF. I would say the bass response of the 220uF caps is slightly better than the 47uF, but barely noticeable with my setup Fuze -> E5 -> IE8 (and ADDIEM). Definitely not noticeable unless you are A/Bing IMO. I am going to do some more lengthy, detailed comparisons when I get a chance.

  Quote:


 You can find the SoC datasheet on AMS website, but only Sandisk has the schematic of the HO and LO signal path. Fuze PCB is multi-layered, so you can't tell which path is going where easily. 
 

Thanks ClieOS! So, looking at the data sheet there are differences at the chip level. The configurations are much different between HP out and line out, as the HP out uses pop and click control where the line out does not. Also, the line out is designed to drive 10K loads, so I think I would be safe assuming the amps are different.

 Also, the specs are different: 






 Add what sansafix said, and external dedicated amplifiers (or DAC/amps) being better than the internal Fuze amp, and the specification differences add up to what my ears are telling me: there is a very noticeable improvement via line out (especially since my IE8s are 16 Ohm).

 Edit: not that the question of if the line out sounds better than HP out was asked here, but in another thread in another forum, which I am expanding upon this answer!


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## reviri

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ClieOS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most definitely, unless your amp has input DC filter. You won't want to actually burn your headphone via high voltage, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, I finally couldn't stop myself from ordering some really expensive Black Gate NX HiQ for more experiment, especially since Parts Connection is having a spring sale event right now. I don't expect them to come in a week or two (need more connectors as well), but I will keep you guys updated on how Black Gate compare to the Nichicon ES I am using now. Stay tuned._

 

My amp is MINI 3, so does it have input DC filter?


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## ClieOS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *reviri* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My amp is MINI 3, so does it have input DC filter?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I am not sure actually, better go to AMB and check out the spec.


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## mfaughn

Why exactly is this thread no longer relevant??? I was referring to it just a couple days ago when working on my LOD.


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## LingLing1337

*******, I hope somebody saved the pinouts for this.l


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## mfaughn

The guide can also be found here.


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## Heady

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LingLing1337* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*******, I hope somebody saved the pinouts for this.l_

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/san...de-56k-421318/


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