# Dr.Meier's Cross-1 discussion.



## palchiu

I think many people will get cross-1 pcb after few days later.

 So, I create this discussion for built, parts choosing, upgrade...

 Any suggest or what you think, please share your experience and your kindly advice here.

 Thanks for your inputs!!!



 [size=large]_Dr.Meier, Thanks you for these free pcbs!!!_[/size]


 [size=xx-small]Any mistake with English spelling, please let me know! [/size]


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## rickcr42

[size=medium]Dr.Meier, Thanks you for these free pcbs!!![/size]

 Works as a "Thank you" thread also. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have a few "outside the box" ideas but need to have the physical board in front of me before ordering parts.I need to know if a certain part I may want to try will actually fit,can fit with a bit of yankee ingenuity or if I need to go to plan-B at that point and settle for something else.

 If at the end i feel I shortchanged myself and made something I _know _ could be made better then maybe I will break out a strip-board V2 projectr and post all the dirty little details of how Frankenfeed came to be 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And your english is fine.Hopefully you can understand ME !

 My spoken language is "rickanese" , a combination of New York/New England Slang and Rick-speak


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## headchange4u

I had been reading up on the Cross-1 for the last couple of days. I have missed the whole "Free PCB" thing. Is it possible to still get a PCB because I would REALLY like to build one of these. Where to I go to order them (I am willing to pay for one if need be 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )? TIA!


 EDIT:
 Nevermind. I found the info I needed.


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## NeilR

I have a couple boards and panels on the way. 

 Let's start by discussing some "in the box" ideas, such as sourcing a case (USA for me) that will take advantage of those nice panels.

 Any ideas?


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## palchiu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tess* 
_I dont think they are Hammond cases, look more like these.

http://www.elfa.se/elfa-bin/setpage....?prev=4355.htm_

 

Thanks tess!

 But I didn't have cross, can't sure which type will fit the panel.



 And we need to find out these parts number for Lorlin & C&K switch.
 Mouser catalog: Lorlin switch catalog from Mouser
 Cross-1 needs 2X6*2, 4X3*1
 Brake before make? Make before brake?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mouser p/n:611-7201-064 for 2X2 switch?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Any comments?


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## palchiu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_And your english is fine.Hopefully you can understand ME !

 My spoken language is "rickanese" , a combination of New York/New England Slang and Rick-speak 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ha~ no problem for reading, but I need half hour... with dictionary....


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## NeilR

palchiu,

 I saw that post but I can't even read that language well enough to figure out what country it is in (nor did I dig into the site much). I'm lazy so I was looking for a possible USA source. If they ship overseas I guess that is what we will have to do. First step will be to measure the panels to see which size is needed.

 The switches are the other biggie but that should be easier.


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## klemchang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *palchiu* 
_Brake before make? Make before brake?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Mouser p/n:611-7201-064 for 2X2 switch?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Any comments?_

 

I think make-before-break (also called shorting) is the right one to use. For make-before-break switches the probe connects the next pad before break the previous pad. For break-before-make ones you might hear a "pop" sound because during the transition the circuit is open.


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 For break-before-make ones you might hear a "pop" sound because during the transition the circuit is open 
 

Only a problem if you also switch the grounds at the same time.When you are talking about networks such as in this case and that they would be in parallel for that split second of switching a make-before-break switch may cause unforseen problems.

 Seems right anyway


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## Blooze

I used Mouser #10WA365 and #10WA367 Lorlin switches when I built mine. No "pop". Hope this helps.


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## Blooze

I'm curious as to what part will be used here. It's my understanding that a 4 pole switch like used on the Meier Bass Enhanced Lite Xfeed on PinkFloyd's site is better than using a double pole switch to actually bypass the xfeed. I used the 4P on my lite version that I have on my SOHA and it seems to work great. Better than the DP I used on my airwired Cross.


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## rickcr42

The Cross-1 _does_ use a 4PDT switch.Made by C&K,silver contacts,etc....


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## Blooze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_The Cross-1 does use a 4PDT switch.Made by C&K,silver contacts,etc...._

 


 I was just looking at the pics on Jan's site and the number of contacts for the switch he has totals 6 like a DPDT, where the one on RockGrotto has 12 and is a 4P on-off-on switch. I don't know that much about switches so maybe I'm just mistaken.


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## rickcr42

You are right,I am wrong.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 S-O is DPDT and shorts out the network


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## Nisbeth

Does anyone know where to get that C&K switch? A manufacturer p/n would also be helpful as I might have to start looking for compatibles 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 /U.


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## rickcr42

Download the C&K catalog here,match up the pins to the pad size then check with Digi-Key under "IT-Cannon" as manufacturer.

 They made it hard to just look for "C&K" and if you did not know it was the above would likely never find the part


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## rickcr42

oops ! Been a rough day on the brain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





http://www.ittcannon.com/


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## Blooze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_They made it hard to just look for "C&K" and if you did not know it was the above would likely never find the part_

 


 No kidding. That's why I have the one I have instead of the C&K.


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## Nisbeth

Allright, it's a C&K T-series PCB-mount switch. Thanks Rick! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now, if I could just find a local source 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 /U.


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## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Blooze* 
_I used Mouser #10WA365 and #10WA367 Lorlin switches when I built mine. No "pop". Hope this helps._

 

Jan told me in an e-mail a while back that he uses the non-shorting Lorlin rotaries. I built a Cross-1 on a Radio Shack perf board, and used the non-shorting switches. Works great, no "pop".


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## Sovkiller

Why not making a list of the parts from a given distributor, with the parts numbers, the values are on the Jan site but not the models....specially the switches, in order to make things easy for the no DIYers, as me....I got two of them and would like to make one with the best parts avaialble, but who knows if I can get the parts...

 I almost forgot the more important thing......Thanks Jan I got the boards today....a very generous gesture....

 BTW I'm still waiting for the Prehead that Todd offered to audition log time ago, I sent it back to him becasue of a noise, and never got the replacment nor the new one to continue the chain, it seems that they skip me from the chain....well my bad....


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 Why not making a list of the parts from a given distributor, with the parts numbers, the values are on the Jan site but not the models 
 

I think the main impediment is the U.S./Europe thing.We can do a "Vanilla" version straight from Digikey (pretty sure anyway) but shipping would be a pain for the Euro builders while any single source on their end would be just a much a pain for the U.S. based builders.That is the straight build,

 I am pretty sure a couple will be doing the "Outer Limits" version and that means a part here and a part there because if I know one thing about building with select parts it is no single site has everything and multiple sources is the only way

 I think once I do my list this weekend it will be a combination digikey and either Anglela or Anitque electronic supply


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## palchiu

I'll typing a part list in one or two days, and add in first post.


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## Blooze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_Jan told me in an e-mail a while back that he uses the non-shorting Lorlin rotaries. I built a Cross-1 on a Radio Shack perf board, and used the non-shorting switches. Works great, no "pop"._

 

I just did what this gentleman recommended when I asked back in Nov. since I just don't know enough about the different types of switches, especially rotary ones.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Daroid* 
_Hi,

 I built the Crossfeed, and used what Meier used - Lorlin rotary switches. For this kind of purpose the make-before break will be ideal for all three switches.

 Why ?

 Make-before break connects to the next input on the "rotary axis" before it looses connection with what it was connected to before. This is also called a shorting switch.

 Break before make looses connection to the initial position pin before it reaches the other input on the rotary axis. This is also called non-shorting because unlike the shorting, this never has two pins on the outer axis connected at a time (shorted).
 When used in signal path like here, a break-before-make switch theoretically will give you a POP-sound every time you turn the switch.

 I accidently received one 2x6 non-shorting switch while the others were shorting - i don't notice any pops at all when switching, this is pure luck and tells that the particular switch is of excellent wuality and precision - it breaks right before it makes, so there's basically no point where it is not breaking nor making when turning the switch between two positions.
 But non-shorting switches is mostly used for switching between light sources (e.g. light shows etc.)_


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_I think the main impediment is the U.S./Europe thing.We can do a "Vanilla" version straight from Digikey (pretty sure anyway) but shipping would be a pain for the Euro builders while any single source on their end would be just a much a pain for the U.S. based builders.That is the straight build,

 I am pretty sure a couple will be doing the "Outer Limits" version and that means a part her and a part there because if I know one thing about building with select parts it is no single site has everything and multiple sources is the only way

 I think once I do my list this weekend it will be a combination digikey and either Anglela or Anitque electronic supply_

 

Well in that case, why not let Pinky make the one for them, and we do our own???

 BTW we don't forget to get parts that will fit in the boards some members me included would like to use the front and back panels as well....

 Another thing is what kind of enclosure do we need to fit those in, is it a Corda custom one or just maybe an stock one.....


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## Ballooshi

10WA147 4 Pole, 3 Position 1-3/16" long shaft, PCB mount (need 1)
 10WA145 2 Pole, 6 Position 1-3/16" long shaft, PCB mount (need 2)

 $3.17 each


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 BTW we don't forget to get parts that will fit in the boards some members me included would like to use the front and back panels as well.... 
 


 C1/C2 look to be the critical parts in size being top mounted and between the pcb and front panel.Even if mounted on the other side there is no room to the sides because of the chassis wall on one and C3/C4 on the other.

 the only way I can see to go with other than identical parts is to go off-board with C1 and C2,mount them on a terminal strip then use wires to bring the leads to the original pads.Once this is done there is plenty of room for larger caps in the C3,C4,C5 positions.Not saying anyone hould go off Jans parts selections but if you DO that is the best way I can think of.

_Normally I would go to a strip board for this but there is no room to drill holes big enough to mount it "piggy back" to the original pcb and if not piggy backed then the extra cost of a strip board over a simple terminal strip makes little sense_

 the resistors have no size issues so any of the correct wattage will do

 Jacks look to be the standard hole but I have not checked it against my jacks yet.I will in the morning leaving only the switches as non interchangable must fit parts and it looks like that is nailed down already.

 My suggestion for whoever takes on the list BOM is to post it as a pdf file for download if you have the capabilities.the easy way is to do the whole thing in Word then choose "pdf" as your printer using one of the free pdf file creators.

 I think a Euro and U.S. "standard" Bill Of Materials (BOM) would be cool and those who go outside the loop can do the "Rickcr42 addendum" type add-on files which can all be printed out and saved for reference.Justt a suggestion


  Quote:


 Another thing is what kind of enclosure do we need to fit those in, is it a Corda custom one or just maybe an stock one..... 
 

That may be the tough one.Not finding the right size chassis but finding one that will bolt up to the original panel.

 I personally have decided to go with a "caseless" open-frame style and will instead use two oak dowels (stained red oak maybe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) to connect the front and rear panels at the screw holes with the screws inserting into the dowel ends for strength.


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## Sovkiller

We could use those same caps he uses, which are those BTW???


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## rickcr42

BTW guys,don't forget to add the toy car !

 This part is _VERY_ important to the overall sound and works just like those "magic pebbles" that are sold to be placed on top of audio gear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Vrooom,vrooom,waaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh................. ..........


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## rickcr42

The green ones are C3/C4 the blue C1/C2 if you mean which model I have a page open at the WIMA site now and am checking for an exact match

http://www.wima.com/


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## palchiu

I think these green wima caps are FKP2.
 Blue from Vishay? ERO KP or MKP? or Philips?


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## rickcr42

and the Vishay caps

http://www.vishay.com/capacitors/

 checking (but getting late here so not for long folks


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## rickcr42

looks like the Vishay caps (blue ones) are these but I am whipped so am headed to the rack.seeing double is not a good time to look over data sheets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.vishay.com/docs/28128/mkp41642.pdf


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## rickcr42

In case anyone is interested looks like the Vishay/Rhoederstein MKP-1841 are the "blue" caps and should be readily available from a full spectrum parts supplier even internationally.

 The WIMAs have proven to be more problematic due to every current production polyprop cap (MKP/FKP) now having a red case according to the web page.I have all the files downloaded and will eventually get to looking at them but others may want to as well so be aware there are no "green" caps from WIMA as far as I can tell though I did not look into the polyesters.

 all this is new to me guys so a bit difficult to weasle out the details since all my projects either use BIG caps or straight to SMD for chip-amps


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## PinkFloyd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_so be aware there are no "green" caps from WIMA as far as I can tell though I did not look into the polyesters.
_

 

Yes. There are green polyprop ones. rswww.com part: 115-720
 rswww.com part: 247-0237











  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *palchiu* 
_I think these green wima caps are FKP2._

 

Correct.


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## rickcr42

Well i swear those were not present on the WIMA site where they actually have pictures of every MKP/FKP cap ! Weird man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also noticed the typical "no single source for everything" problem on my end which is really not a problem for me since I am going away from original parts anyway but would have been nice to make a little list up for others.Within time limits obviously.No desire to spend all day on it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Especially since my youngest son had the misfortune to totally dislocate his knee in phys ed yesterday and is taking a boatload of my time up.The little nut job "mini me" popped his own knee back in then went to the ER in a damn ambulence but the x-rays are showing a chip in the bone si lloks like it is orthopedic specialist and crutches for a while.Hopefully no surgery


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## star1

Rapid electronics in the UK seem to have Wima FKP2 listed

http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk/rk...D_CODE=10-1435

 They also have Alpha rotary switches, but Im unsure which to use "make before break" or "break before make" 

 And the ALUBOS 1000 case is available from RS(UK) part no: 298-1557

 Anyone know were to get the switch???


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## Sovkiller

Why not organizing a group buy for the whole set of parts from a given manufacturer, one for US/Canada and one for Europe, and order them in bulk, that will be cheaper and safer for us....Somone who knows what he is doing, and with some DIYer inclination, this way if some parts are left he could sue them for future projects.....


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## Nisbeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *star1* 
_Anyone know were to get the switch???_

 

RS UK: 
 p/n 448-0832 (out of stock)
 p/n 664-222

 Rapid: 
 p/n 75-0172 (out of stock) 


 /U.


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## Teerawit

nm


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## palchiu

Received my cross, here is the pics.





 pcb:1X3 and 5/8 inch.
 Panel fixed pitch:3 and 13/16 inch. or 97mm


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## star1

This link any good to you guys in the U.S.A/Canada for the HA-1 II and CROSS-1 Case.

 Bopla - Alubos 1000 case.

 Look under Products - Handhelds

http://www.rose-bopla.com/Main_Pgs/Contact_Us.htm


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## palchiu

Here is the part list
 2x150 ohm---
 4x390 ohm---
 2x470 ohm---
 4x1k ohm---
 2x2.2k ohm---
 4x3.6k ohm---
 2x3.9k ohm---
 2x10k ohm---
 2x11k ohm---
 2x15k ohm---
 2x22k ohm---
 2x33k ohm---
 2x47k ohm---
 2x1.5nF---
 1x47nF---
 2x100nF---
 2x2pole switch---
 1x4pole switch---
 1xtoggle switch---
 2xRCA pair---
 1xenclosure---
 4xscrews---
 3xknob---
 4xfeet---

 update soon


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## rickcr42

Anyone else wonder about the seemingly "wrong" jack layout on the Cross-1 panel ?

 I realise you europeans mostly drive on the wrong side of the road but I never realised before you also come at the input from the output side.sneaking up ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 While thinking on this it came to me that this must be intentional since Jan never leaves "unfinished business" dangling on either his project write-ups or actual products.
 All I could come up with is if stacked with an amp it puts the Cross-1 output jacks directly over the input jacks of most amps and being a passive device where cable length is *very important* a "nudge" to do the right thing and have the longer interconnect go to the input side (right rear) "roundabout".

 I could also be dead a*s wrong


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## star1

Quote:


 I realise you europeans mostly drive on the wrong side of the road 
 

Most of Europe & USA drive on the wrong side of the road , only the Brit's drive on the "right" side


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## rickcr42

BTW-here is where the Rickmonster is at presently :

 Even though this is a very compact design using strictly passive parts in a low parts count the sizing is critical if using the pcb board supplied by Jan.
 Being me I can not just rush in and purchase parts from the usual suspects,populate the board then pop it all into a stock "off the shelf" chassis and call the operation a success so have not even ordered a part yet not a switch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I had to run the triple-threat track of identifying what parts I wanted,what would fit and how would I in the end house the whole shooting match while doing justice to both the design and my ideas on what looks good sprinkled with a bit of my own sonic taste which is never cold,never sharp but ultimately must be highly detailed and that means going off board with C1,C2 and C5.just no way around it.
 C3/C4 being attached to the backside of the switch can still be larger and mount just fine which leaving "method" of mounting the off-board caps to figure out once the size identified.

 I am leaning towards Sprague 716P for the C3/C4 and C5 positions and probably will order them today but am still a bit unsettled on the C1/C2 postion since I am not one to use all one type of capacitror in an attempt to avoid a particular "signature" being put on everything and also realising there needs to be some synergy,some cohesiveness in the end.
 In the past I have had real good luck matching up the Orange Drops with Solen Fast caps but these have become harder and harder to source in a wide range selection.
 Both the Solens and 716's are big b*stards and have no shot at going on the pc board as neither are the other "possible" for C1/C2 which is the Obbligato Cap so before nailing down the method of mounting I had to change gears and decide on housing the whole thing so here is where i am at :

 I had these really cool 4.5x2.5x solid oiled walnut beveled edge "end caps' from a past project kicking around waiting for "THE" project that would do them justice.I decided this was "the one" so set about doing the dry fit of the front and rear panels and trying to figure how to make everything have good mechanical integrity and then got "bit" by the panel sizes of the two panels not being the same exact sixe with the rear being smaller than the front in both width and length.Not a lot,but enough to make my life miserable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I WILL find a way to even up the top to bottom dimension without straying from it being good solid build,no weebly wobly audio in MY house ! So the next step was figuring out how to assemble it and it came to me this way :

 1-Attach the front and rear panels with thin wood "side bars" going front to back which is a variation on my previous "dowel" method.Pine or spruce should make a nice counter to the walnut

 2-there are already two holes per walnut cap drilled from the prevuios use so I am planning to just use two brass bolts per to "clamp" the assemply so the walnut will be the top and bottom plates and the pine the side with both the side panels and aluminum panels being set back from the edges a bit.

 Looks _WAY COOL_ in the mockup stage but to be honest leaves very little front-to-back room for the "off board" capacitors so will mean everything in hand before i start mounting _anything_ not a switch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The off board caps as of right now I plan on mounting to a terminal strip that will mount to a new hole drilled in the back panel right between the input and output jacks.Should work but only time will tell 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Knobs : NOS bakelite as per my usual so it matches my system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Resistors : No metal film here guys but rather left/right channel hand matched Allen-Bradley carbon films !
 Carbon compositions are not only _NOT_ a precision resistor but can stray over time and are heat sensitive in the extreme and not only can but likely will vary if used in a hot circuit.the resistance value reduces as they heat up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But this is a totally passive device and I don't plan on any "music with blowtorch" so they should work out fine.I considered Rikens here but the amount of resistors X$5 per seems a bit goofy and I can not bring myself to do it.There ARE only 3 resistors  in the signal path at any one time and with proper matching to 1 or 2% should be at least within 5-10% even over time and for this more than good enough.

 All about "tone" and not specs.Some call this type of resistor "smooth" and place an un-natural coloring to it while i prefer to call it getting away from the _very_ un-natural sonic imprint metal films put on music signals and makes them tend to the light and to the upper octaves instead of to the upper bass through midrange where music lives.

 If there is a "problem" it is size.Being 1/2 W resistors will be taller when mounted and that will mean "double nutting" the panel controls to get more space between the pcb and the front panel.just enough to get the resistors in.That or go to Yageo carbon films because this additional pcb-to-panel spacing means there will be less room behind it to the back panel to weasle in the caps.again means all parts in hand before touching a soldering iron 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So my plan is for a compact but very solid and for its size very heavy Meier Audio Cross-1 V2 (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) and that is imprtant to me when you consider how small this is combined with how much cables can weigh which would make it "tippy" if not long enough along the front/rear axis.
 Anyone who has ever held a 600V poly film cap in their hands knows these puppies are _massive_ for the size and the first time you hold on it is a surprising event.Multiply that by X5 and toss in solid walnut and this baby is going no where once planted in the system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Looking at finalising the order today/early tomorrow then wating for parts to arrive (overseas shipping if I go with the Obliggato caps).doing the dry run and fitting everything to see if there is room for my planned nightmare and if not then round two of parts ordering 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looks like I will be the last of us to do the "show and tell" part but trust me folks,if this goes as planned should be well worth the wait and I fully expect the Head-Fi *standard* "looks good.I bet it sounds good too" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Rickamundo


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## Blooze

Sounds good Rick! Can't wait to hear your impressions. FWIW I put Stackpole carbons from Handmade in the one I built, but just put the regular "red" WIMA's, I don't even remember which ones --same as in my Millett I think--in mine.


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 Stackpole carbons 
 

Another fav.Only problem with both (and even the $5 a pop Rikens) is can be over done and make for a sound almost too mellow.I may adjust to one type for the "bass/treble" trims and another type for the crossfeed.

 I wish there was a way to squeeze in some Vishay bulk foil S-102C resistors but the non standard mount would mean more "off board" parts and I am already at that limit so maybe Crabon Films instead of the Carbon Comps in the R11-R16 postions (maybe even bang down to Radio Shack and use those 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	
















 )

 Oh yeah.Looks like NOS Sprague 716P and Angela/Solen cap combo is a lock.I will save the Obbligato cap test for another day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 time to get my behind in gear and *build somthin' * _dammit !_


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## Blooze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_Another fav.Only problem with both (and even the $5 a pop Rikens) is can be over done and make for a sound almost too mellow.I may adjust to one type for the "bass/treble" trims and another type for the crossfeed.
 [/B] dammit !



_

 

Yeah, it's pretty mellow. But it gives my Millett that touch more tubey sound to it. The Millett still seems very SS sounding to me compared to my SOHA amp. So in that respect I like the Stackpoles being everywhere.

 Now, to decide how to do these boards from Jan! I like the idea of using big caps offboard.


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## rickcr42

As an "Addy" for the scematic deprived :

 Only three resistors *WORST CASE * are actually in the signal path at any given time.That would be _one of_ the S1 selected parallel pair/single or none at all depending on the switch position.that is group 1

 Group 2/Switch 2 : R11/R13 in parallel (for 195 ohms),R13 by itself or both bypasses leaving R15 as the ONLY resistor that will be in the signal path no matter what combinations of switching you use.

 That makes R15 _THE_ critical resistor and if you are going to go "nut boy" on one this is it.Second in order of importance would be R11 and R13 and finally the S1 group.

 The rest are all in the shunt postion and yes,they have an effect on the sonics but by having not signal actually pass directly through them not as much as a purely series resistance would.Left right channel matchups are important though as always.

 Tolerance : always good to have exact values but the ugly truth is you usually deign the circuit to a formular then either round "up" or round "down" to the nearest stock value that will work.In effect a close approximation is good enough.
 Where you can NOT stray is with the left channel/right channel matchups or your image will stereo wander and become unfocused.Better to be "off" the actual value by a bit but have the left and the right channel resistors be a dead match if you expect to have good results with a stereo audio project.
 buy multiles,measure for pairs and set them aside as pairs then toss the rest in a junk drawer for a relay circuit or LED current limiting resistors or some other non-critical application................

 ..................or that mono amp you always wanted to build but never got up the courage to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 enough from the peanut gallery.Hope these off the wall "tips" can be helpful to someone somewhere in some dark corner of the planet


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## rickcr42

Quote:


 I like the idea of using big caps offboard. 
 

i have a pretty good collection of "mounts" for this so am lucky in that I can wait until I get the parts in hand to decide on the "how" part of it.

 there is this type which in my case I would bolt to the back panel after drilling new holes but can just as easily mount to a chassis bottom plate :






 There is the "plug and play" type where you can make changes for evaluation of part but not as good in my mind for permanant duty :






 there is the easy to work with and very secure "Tag Board" type mount ;






 And finally the way I would like to go,the terminal board :






 The problem for me is mounting the last type.I have a couple of Keystone "mini" turret boards that would be perfect for the actual part mounting but not so very for the chassis mounting part.
 Four bolts is not as good as two and one better yet so maybe my original terminal strip bolted to the back panel idea is the most workable in my situation.


----------



## Blooze

Could you first mount the terminal board to a thin sheet of something, then attach the whole unit by the extra sheet to the chassis with one bolt, eliminating many holes through the chassis? Or just drill another hole in the terminal board center and use another spacer for that single bolt to the chassis? Granted you'll lose a little space with the sheet and bolt heads, but not much.


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 Could you first mount the terminal board to a thin sheet of something, then attach the whole unit by the extra sheet to the chassis with one bolt, eliminating many holes through the chassis? 
 

too many steps,too insecure.

 Anything that can flex will and and flex is bad for audio work.

 The only _proper_ way to mounting anything is to lock it down so damn tight you could gun the whole deal right into the wall and it may break but not come loose at the mount.

 The "old fashion" crappy little terminal strip however is actually a very secure and very stable mounting device that will not move a bit once cranked down with a nut/bolt/lockwasher and the parts themselves have a large area of cantact for "hooking" the capacitor leads on then soldering.Very secure and "wobble" proof.It makes a sub assembly where each part reinforces the other.

 There is also an added bonus to the terminal strip over just about any other method and that is a natural Star Ground point right where it bolts to the chassis.

 If I decide on this path I will take the RCA jack commons and a single lead from the pcb ground bus and make my stand right there at the bolt.all grounds,one single point


----------



## Teerawit

Anyone ordering the Bopla case for the CROSS-1?


----------



## star1

Quote:


 Anyone ordering the Bopla case for the CROSS-1? 
 

Yep, Mine should be coming today, I live in the UK and I think ite easier to get here.


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *star1* 
_Yep, Mine should be coming today, I live in the UK and I think ite easier to get here._

 

Did you custom order the lengths? ie. do you have extras?


----------



## star1

No, I bought it as a case 150mm long.

 You could try this link for U.S. DISTRIBUTOR LISTINGS, then look under Products, handheld. for the Alubos 1000.

http://www.rose-bopla.com/Main_Pgs/Contact_Us.htm


----------



## star1

Can I ask what is the best cable to connect RCA jacks to PCB. 

 Jan lists "4-fold flat-cable" is used to keep wires together and thus minimize trace loops. 

 What is "4 fold flat cable"?


----------



## rickcr42

I use this stuff a _lot_






 they call it Rainbow Wire at the shack

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...entPage=family

 Solid copper conductor 24 Guage intercom wire.You must have something similiar available in your location under "intercom wire".

 Great wire for audio work


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *star1* 
_Can I ask what is the best cable to connect RCA jacks to PCB. 

 Jan lists "4-fold flat-cable" is used to keep wires together and thus minimize trace loops. 

 What is "4 fold flat cable"?_

 

Jan uses a ribbon cable, or something similar, IMO nothing fancy, I replaced mine for silver wire teflon covered, the coventional one we use in all projects, amps etc, and it is much better...for the new one who knows what I will use....


 [size=x-large]BTW what about the parts list???? Nobody yet??? [/size]


----------



## jerb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *palchiu* 
_Here is the part list
 2x150 ohm---
 4x390 ohm---
 2x470 ohm---
 4x1k ohm---
 2x2.2k ohm---
 4x3.6k ohm---
 2x3.9k ohm---
 2x10k ohm---
 2x11k ohm---
 2x15k ohm---
 2x22k ohm---
 2x33k ohm---
 2x47k ohm---
 2x1.5nF---
 1x47nF---
 2x100nF---
 2x2pole switch---
 1x4pole switch---
 1xtoggle switch---
 2xRCA pair---
 1xenclosure---
 4xscrews---
 3xknob---
 4xfeet---

 update soon_

 

www.Mouser.com

www.Digikey.com


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jerb* 
_www.Mouser.com

www.Digikey.com_

 

jerb, I can tell you about 100 more places where to get the parts, and this part list (with just the values) are on the Meier website, and on the schematics, that is not a secret...

 What we are looking is into something more specific with *parts numbers from those distributors*, something like this same list with all the parts numbers beside from Mouser or Digikey, just ot use the same two you used....specially the switches and caps, that need to fit the board....


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_

 [size=x-large]BTW what about the parts list???? Nobody yet??? [/size]_

 

Hola Sovkiller, es importante estar tranquilo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 :

 QuantityDescriptionMouser part number
 2150 ohm resistor271-150-RC
 4390 ohm resistor271-390-RC
 2470 ohm resistor271-470-RC
 41k ohm resistor271-1K-RC
 22.2k ohm resistor271-2.2K-RC
 43.6k ohm resistor271-3.6K-RC
 23.9k ohm resistor271-3.9K-RC
 210k ohm resistor271-10K-RC
 211k ohm resistor271-11K-RC
 215k ohm resistor271-15K-RC
 222k ohm resistor271-22K-RC
 233k ohm resistor271-33K-RC
 247k ohm resistor271-47K-RC
 21.5 nF cap505-FKP21500/100/2.5
 147 nF cap505-MKP20.047/250/5
 2100 nF cap505-MKP20.1/250/5
 2Lorlin 2x6 rotary switch10WA145
 1Lorlin 4x3 rotary switch10WA147
 1C&K 2x2 toggle switch611-E201-003


 Please triple check the parts, especially the switch since it probably won't fit on the PCB to your liking; I have it here for the time being.
 This is a list if you want to order everything at Mouser. They have some decent film caps; I have 250V and 100V ones here.
 However I'm probably going to go crazy on the C1 and C2 caps and get boutique ones elsewhere.


----------



## star1

Thought I'd get some pictures up. 
 All the parts were located in the U.K.

 I have some Alpha Rotary switches which I am thinking of using, but due to my lack of experience I'm not sure If you can get the middle 3 position switch 180 deg out, or if it makes any difference?

 I don't seem to able to get the right Lorlin switches here in the UK.
 Will use some M3 torx srews on the case.


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_Hola Sovkiller, es importante estar tranquilo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :

 QuantityDescriptionMouser part number
 2150 ohm resistor271-150-RC
 4290 ohm resistor271-287-RC
 2470 ohm resistor271-470-RC
 41k ohm resistor271-1K-RC
 22.2k ohm resistor271-2.2K-RC
 43.6k ohm resistor271-3.6K-RC
 23.9k ohm resistor271-3.9K-RC
 210k ohm resistor271-10K-RC
 211k ohm resistor271-11K-RC
 215k ohm resistor271-15K-RC
 222k ohm resistor271-22K-RC
 233k ohm resistor271-33K-RC
 247k ohm resistor271-47K-RC
 21.5 nF cap505-FKP21500/100/2.5
 147 nF cap505-MKP20.047/250/5
 2100 nF cap505-MKP20.1/250/5
 2Lorlin 2x6 rotary switch10WA145
 1Lorlin 4x3 rotary switch10WA147
 1C&K 2x2 toggle switch611-E201-003


 Please triple check the parts, especially the switch since it probably won't fit on the PCB to your liking; I have it here for the time being.
 This is a list if you want to order everything at Mouser. They have some decent film caps; I have 250V and 100V ones here.
 However I'm probably going to go crazy on the C1 and C2 caps and get boutique ones elsewhere._

 

I think there may be an error in the part list quoted above. The 2nd resistor is listed as 287R; I think this should be 390R, according to Jan's site??? I think this is his R11...


----------



## NeilR

I just called a Bopla distributor, which happens to be 15 minutes from my house. According to the distributor, the boxes are made in Frederick, Maryland, USA. That very coincidentally is an hour or so drive for me.

 They come in 1 meter lengths and they told me there is a $100 minimum order. Kind of strange that they are available in cut lengths in Europe but not USA.

 They are getting me a price. I asked for the price of the meter long extrusions, and a price if cut into 6 equal pieces, which would be about 6" lengths. I don't have the facilities to cut them myself. Sounds like some sort of group buy may be in order. 

 I will post back the costs when they get back to me. In the meantime, if anyone finds a USA source for one-offs, let me know. If there is a group buy kind of thing, we should settle on a length. From what I can see, it could be anything over 3" or so since it is all air and wire behind the board. I have the boards and panels but have not built it out so I don't know the exact length and in any event the "right length" is probably more a cosmetic/ergonomic issue.

 Anyone interested in the enclosure should post here so that we all have an idea of the volumes.

 [Edit: If anything in the above is against forum rules, let me know. I have never studied the subtleties of the commercial rules because I have never had a need to so so]


----------



## star1

NeilR,
 if its any help Bopla must have a cutting service, as when my case arrived it has been enameled after it was cut to length.
 I'm sure RS in the U.K. don't go to the bother to have the stove enameled them self's.

http://www.rose-bopla.com/Main_Pgs/Contact_Us.htm


----------



## calaf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Anyone interested in the enclosure should post here so that we all have an idea of the volumes.
 [Edit: If anything in the above is against forum rules, let me know. I have never studied the subtleties of the commercial rules because I have never had a need to so so]_

 

I am interested! If there is a group buy I would pitch in for two enclosures. Speaking of rules I think this would be the perfect occasion to organize a group buy. If we go for that we should start a new thread in the "Group buys" forum


----------



## Teerawit

NeilR, good eye, I fixed the resistor value in the list.

 "I live in the USA, and I wish for Christmas that I could have a Bopla enclosure! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"


----------



## NeilR

I was just sitting here thinking that an extra (same size) case could be built up into a Pimeta, or some other portable/transportable amp. Couln't match the panels easily, but a black plexiglass panel might not look too bad with it, and at least the corner cuts could be matched.....


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *star1* 
_NeilR,
 if its any help Bopla must have a cutting service, as when my case arrived it has been enameled after it was cut to length.
 I'm sure RS in the U.K. don't go to the bother to have the stove enameled them self's.

http://www.rose-bopla.com/Main_Pgs/Contact_Us.htm_

 

The distributor told me that I can get the lengths cut to order. I suspected that they would do a nice job; thanks for the input!


----------



## Pars

I'd take a couple myself. 

 IIRC, 150mm was the length that someone (star1?) used, which is just under 6" (~5.9"). You don't want it too short with two pairs of RCAs coming off the back. I think it's OK to talk about doing a group buy here, but you have to get permission from the mods to actually do it.


----------



## bigcat39

Very interested in a case GP!


----------



## NeilR

Thanks, Pars. If I get into trouble talking about this, I'll refer them to you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Six equal cuts works out to 166mm length, but I would think a few mm are shaved off in the cutting process. That is almost exactly the double Eurocard size and would match the Hammong cases of that size within a few mm. Not a bad choice unless one were shooting for something tiny to carry with some other pre-sdetermined amp size.


----------



## star1

I actually edited the part no: the case length I now think should be 100mm (4in) not 150mm.
 If you look at Jans site the the the lenght is 130mm which I would assume is including jacks and knobs.

 My picture above is 100mm lengh case.

 Anyone help me with my question about the middle 3 position switch?

  Quote:


 I have some Alpha Rotary switches which I am thinking of using, but due to my lack of experience I'm not sure If you can get the middle 3 position switch 180 deg out, or if it makes any difference?


----------



## NeilR

Bopla case.....

 For planning purposes, here is the pricing:

 $111/meter tube
 $2/unit cut charge (cut to any length, apparently, does not have to be consistent, so we could do custom lengths, to some extent).

 2 weeks lead time from order.

 So... a 6" case would run $20.50, plus freight two ways, paypal fees, etc, etc. , etc.

 A 4" cut would run about $17.85 +++

 A little steep compared to a Hammond of the same size, which would include end panels, which are not included in the pricing above.

 The person I dealt with had no knowledge of the product or purchasing details other than what she was told. So anything above is subject to refinement, I guess. I asked about quantity pricing; the response was vague but I got the sense that any further break would be for quantities beyond the scope of anything we would do.

 Since a single meter exceeds the minimum buy, we certainly have enough interest to do something.


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 Thanks, Pars. If I get into trouble talking about this, I'll refer them to you 
 







 actually guys this is EXACTLY what the "group buy" concept was meant to be from the start-enabling members to obtain things either not available in small quanitities or by pooling resources benefitting by the savings incurred.

 In this case it is obvious most have no shot at the Meier Audio spec part in "one of" quantities so maybe an interest check  of those who _actually have_ a cross-1 pcb to nail down the per unit price then ask for a "go" from the moderating staff.apparently many want to do an actual "Meier Audio Cross-1" and this is the only real stumbling block.

 Just my opinion for whatever it is worth guys


----------



## Pars

Bopla case...

 Just a thought regarding buying these from Elfa instead...

 Pricing for the case segment (which I think is the only piece we need) is:

 100mm !6.70 ($20.09 USD) (part # 50-792-64)
 150mm 26.00 ($31.28 USD) (part # 50-792-72)

 These prices are in Euros excl/VAT...

 Guess I answered my own question, but left the info here anyway. I'm sure shipping could get expensive real quick.


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *star1* 
_Thought I'd get some pictures up. 
 All the parts were located in the U.K.

 I have some Alpha Rotary switches which I am thinking of using, but due to my lack of experience I'm not sure If you can get the middle 3 position switch 180 deg out, or if it makes any difference?

 I don't seem to able to get the right Lorlin switches here in the UK.
 Will use some M3 torx srews on the case._

 

That's surprising since I was under the (perhaps erroneous) impression that Lorlin was a British manufacturer?


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* 
_Bopla case...

 Just a thought regarding buying these from Elfa instead...

 Pricing for the case segment (which I think is the only piece we need) is:

 100mm !6.70 ($20.09 USD) (part # 50-792-64)
 150mm 26.00 ($31.28 USD) (part # 50-792-72)

 These prices are in Euros excl/VAT...

 Guess I answered my own question, but left the info here anyway. I'm sure shipping could get expensive real quick._

 

They have a mininum order of 100 Euros or something, don't they? Cuz in this case it could be easier to pool together to buy all from here to save on shipping costs (which I imagine would be comparable to getting them shipped directly from Bopla). And aren't US residents immune to VAT?


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_They have a mininum order of 100 Euros or something, don't they? Cuz in this case it could be easier to pool together to buy all from here to save on shipping costs (which I imagine would be comparable to getting them shipped directly from Bopla). And aren't US residents immune to VAT?_

 

Yes, non-Euro nations don't pay VAT. Still, the pricing that NeilR got from the US distributor near him is better than going thru Elfa. I hadn't done a Euro to USD conversion for awhile, and had assumed it was still close to 1:1
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... guess not.


----------



## jerb

well if this does become a group buy (from my current understanding this is just and interest check) I would buy 1 enclosure


----------



## NeilR

In my email below, I quoted $17.85 for a 4" cut; I was on my way out the door for an appointment and made an error. The $17.85 price is a 5" cut (130mm).

 A 4" case (100mm) would run about $14.55. 

 I was told to deduct 0.25 for each cut. My contact could not confirm unit of measure; I assume inches. That is why we would only get nine 4" cases from a tube rather than 10.

 Once we have a better idea where we want to go, we will need to work out efficient sizing to reduce scrap. I would be very surprised if it would be cheaper to order from Elfa than from the factory's sales rep since Elfa requires about 10,0000 miles of transport and two border crossings (actually a round trip) verses about 45 miles in my case.

 rickcr42: I will contact a moderator. I think I am going to try to do this. I owe something to the community here for all I've learned since November or so when I found this site. It is obvious to me that the economics are here and there is more than enough interest for a group buy. THis is an interesting group buy since there is a very definite ceiling to the number needed. I wonder how many boards Jan shipped to the US?

 Final thought for now.... If any Canadians or other North Americans are interested, let me know. I don't know what is involved but I don't think it is rocket science to get a small box North or South of the border.



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Bopla case.....

 For planning purposes, here is the pricing:

 $111/meter tube
 $2/unit cut charge (cut to any length, apparently, does not have to be consistent, so we could do custom lengths, to some extent).

 2 weeks lead time from order.

 So... a 6" case would run $20.50, plus freight two ways, paypal fees, etc, etc. , etc.

 A 4" cut would run about $17.85 +++

 A little steep compared to a Hammond of the same size, which would include end panels, which are not included in the pricing above.

 The person I dealt with had no knowledge of the product or purchasing details other than what she was told. So anything above is subject to refinement, I guess. I asked about quantity pricing; the response was vague but I got the sense that any further break would be for quantities beyond the scope of anything we would do.

 Since a single meter exceeds the minimum buy, we certainly have enough interest to do something._


----------



## calaf

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_ I think I am going to try to do this. I owe something to the community here for all I've learned since November or so when I found this site. It is obvious to me that the economics are here and there is more than enough interest for a group buy. THis is an interesting group buy since there is a very definite ceiling to the number needed. I wonder how many boards Jan shipped to the US?_

 

thanks a lot for doing this!
  Quote:


 rickcr42: I will contact a moderator. 
 

 you did it already: rickcr42 is the moderator of this group 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 You may want to ask Jude about starting the Group Buy thread though...


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *calaf* 
_thanks a lot for doing this!

 you did it already: rickcr42 is the moderator of this group 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 You may want to ask Jude about starting the Group Buy thread though..._

 


 I thought the moderators had a "moderator" next to their name in the threads. I thought anybody that gabbed a lot here could become a headphoneous supremus. Yea, I'm a little new here and never read all the fine print, if there is any 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I'm a quick learner and I have *Support Infrastructure * in the form of a wife that does a lot of eBay selling/shipping!

 Next stop Jude...

 Regards,
 Neil


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_I would be very surprised if it would be cheaper to order from Elfa than from the factory's sales rep since Elfa requires about 10,0000 miles of transport and two border crossings (actually a round trip) verses about 45 miles in my case._

 

Ohh right...silly me, I totally forgot that you were talking with a US rep.

 Anyway I hope this all works out!


----------



## NeilR

The only problem I see is that there will almost certainly be unsold cases left from one tube. In principle, I could end up back where I started... owning a whole tube of cases 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess that is how DIY goes.


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 you did it already: rickcr42 is the moderator of this group 
 

no longer guys,gave it up so i could enjoy Head-fi again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 will take a bit of time to get used to since I WAS pretty much a fixture around here as a mod for five loooooooooooooooooong years 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the good news is I have a certain amount of perspective from both sides and can maybe be of some small assistance.Happy to help out in any way I can.

  Quote:


 could end up back where I started... owning a whole tube of cases 
 

that would really suck and is one of the pitfalls of trying to do a "loose" group buy along with it is a damn lot of work !

 I think if you can nail down just how many have posted they have received boards,make an actual list and maybe contact those persons you may be able to get a better hande on final price and final amount.
 If this means you get "stuck" with goods and the bill then maybe letting everyone fend for themself is the better course.


----------



## Sovkiller

Well count me in for two sets of parts in whatever group buy you decided to go for, I know that resistors specially are not sold in small quantities so we may need to split something...

 [size=x-large]Rick take the helm man, you are the man of the DIY forum!!!!!.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








[/size]


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 Rick take the helm man, you are the man of the DIY forum!!!!!..... 
 
















 Not me guys.My days of being a responsible adult are behind me and no looking over my shoulder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I kinda think I am going to enjoy being the 

 [size=small]*RICKMONSTER* [/size]

 again and having some fun around this joint


----------



## NeilR

OK... Here is my list of those that have expressed interest, and the number of boards:

 NeilR2
 calaf2
 teerawit1
 pars2
 bigcat391 (qty not specified)
 jerb1
 sovkiller 2

 Total: 11


 Any other interest out there?


----------



## [AK]Zip

Depening on price I will probably take 1.

 -Alex-


----------



## threepointone

depending on price, i might take anywhere from 1-3; might keep one for another project. If 4" or so is fine, and it's around $15 / case or less, I'll probably go for two. I'm definitely in this group buy, but I don't have an exact number yet.


----------



## palchiu

If someone can provide international shipping these enclosures, please count me in.

 I've already know at least 6 for Taiwan DIYer, maybe more. 


 Thanks.

 Pal


----------



## Sovkiller

Neil I expressed my interest in a group buy for the parts, not just the enclosure alone, with no parts there is no Cross-1 to case. In other words if the group buy is only for the enclosures, and nobody pull the trigger for the whole set of electronic parts, l will not get the case just to have another mechanical part dusting around OK? If the group buy is for everything, then count me in, if there are one for the parts and another for the enclosure, then count me in also in both, but not for the enclosures alone...OK?


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *palchiu* 
_If someone can provide international shipping these enclosures, please count me in.

 I've already know at least 6 for Taiwan DIYer, maybe more. 


 Thanks.

 Pal_

 

Palchiu - I will have my shipping department look into costs, etc. for Taiwan


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_Neil I expressed my interest in a group buy for the parts, not just the enclosure alone, with no parts there is no Cross-1 to case. In other words if the group buy is only for the enclosures, and nobody pull the trigger for the whole set of electronic parts, l will not get the case just to have another mechanical part dusting around OK? If the group buy is for everything, then count me in, if there are one for the parts and another for the enclosure, then count me in also in both, but not for the enclosures alone...OK?_

 


 You can buy all the other parts from Mouser. Why do you need a group buy for the other parts? It is about a $27 order per unit.


----------



## palchiu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Palchiu - I will have my shipping department look into costs, etc. for Taiwan 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks NeilR!!! 

 We really appreciate your help.


----------



## NeilR

I found another issue with the previously posted Mouser BOM.

 The specified switches have solder tabs. I think that would not end well. I think the correct part numbers are 10WA345 (replacing 10WA365) and 10WA347 (repalcing 10WA367), which appear to be the same, except they are PC mount and have longer (1 3/16" vs 1/2") shafts, similar to Dr. Meir's images on his site. 

 For rubber feet, Mouser part 517-SJ5518BK should work. I just used them on my PPA's Hammond case. Or go to this part's Mouser catalog on line page and pick one.

 Dr. Meir specifies M3 screws, presumably he used the same Bopla case??? In any event, I would assume that the Bopla cases we will hopefully be ordering can be tapped just like a Hammond? Maybe star1 can chime in since he has the case in hand. I am hoping I can tap it for imperial 6-32 socket head screws that I already have available.


----------



## star1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_I am hoping I can tap it for imperial 6-32 socket head screws that I already have available._

 

Tapped mine to M3, seems to hold fine.

 The screw hole isn’t as big as the Hammond so don’t know if you will get away using 6-32 socket head screws.


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *star1* 
_Tapped mine to M3, seems to hold fine.

 The screw hole isn’t as big as the Hammond so don’t know if you will get away using 6-32 socket head screws._

 

I think M3 is equivilent to 4-40; that's what I was afraid of. One more shipping charge. I wanted to fill in my screw collection anyway


----------



## NeilR

Here is my own updated BOM, with the corrected resistor value and switches I mentioned previously. I use VD resistors because I am color impaired 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried to set this up to drop into a Mouser BOM import but I think the site will convert tabs to spaces. I included the Meir ID from his schematic. If anyone cares to double check my work, that would be helpful. 

 Mouser Part #QtyMeir ID
 10WA3452S1 S3
 10WA3471S2
 611-E201-0031S0
 505-FKP21500/100/2.52C3 C4
 505-MKP20.047/250/51C5
 505-MKP20.1/250/52 C1 C2
 71-RN55D-F-1502R7 R8
 71-RN55D-F-3924R11 R12 R13 R14
 71-RN55D-F-4752R5 R6
 71-RN55D-F-1.0K4R3 R4 R9 R10
 71-RN55D-F-2.21K2R1 R2
 71-RN55D-F-3.65K4R19 R20 R21 R22
 71-RN55D-F-3.92K2R15 R16
 71-RN55D-F-10K2R23 R24
 71-RN55D-F-11.3K2R17 R18
 71-RN55D-F-15K2R25 R26
 71-RN55D-F-22.1K2R27 R28
 71-RN55D-F-33.2K2R29 R30
 71-RN55D-F-47.5K2R31 R32
 517-SJ5518BK4Feet


----------



## Teerawit

Will it be okay to stray from the original resistor values? I like the RN55 series too so I'm just wondering.


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_Will it be okay to stray from the original resistor values? I like the RN55 series too so I'm just wondering._

 


 There are an lmost infinite number of possible combinations that you could use. The schematic lists values that Dr. Meir selected and that is what I used since I have no specific reason to change them. Also for the purposes of posting a BOM I think his values should be the "base" BOM to avoid any confusion. Most of those values are for the adjustments. You can set your own points, especially the intermediate points of the resistors controlled by the input and output switches. My values are not exactly Dr. Meir's values; just values within the RN55 line that are closest. I guess you could also use different cap values for different affects if you care to read Dr. Meir's discussion and think it through.


----------



## Teerawit

What I meant to say was:

 The RN55 resistor values do not come in the values that Dr. Meier listed. However I would still prefer using the RN55 to some generic metal film resistors, thus would it be okay to use modified resistor values (one that RN55 resistors come in) without having to go and calculate other cap values.


----------



## rickcr42

Round up or down to the next nearest value.It is way more important to have left/right channel matched sets than it is to have exact values.


----------



## cetoole

If you guys to a group buy on the cases, I would be in for one, as long as the price is under $20 or so, plus shipping.


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_What I meant to say was:

 The RN55 resistor values do not come in the values that Dr. Meier listed. However I would still prefer using the RN55 to some generic metal film resistors, thus would it be okay to use modified resistor values (one that RN55 resistors come in) without having to go and calculate other cap values._

 


 Teerawit, the BOM I just posted should have the RN55 values within a couple percent, which should be more than adequate. if you see any differences, please let me know.


----------



## xikteny

I would be interested in buying a case or two.


----------



## rickcr42

If you need me to order to get the min mark me down too but if not then no.i don't really need it for this (already layed out in WOOD ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) but could find another use if it makes the purchase go smoothly

 rickster


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_You can buy all the other parts from Mouser. Why do you need a group buy for the other parts? It is about a $27 order per unit._

 

Because usually the resistors and small caps came in big packages, and I have no use for the rest later on, OTOH it will be even cheaper if someone get packages of 100 resistors of the given values and split them, among let's say 50 members (in case there is only two or three R of the same value in each circuit) we can decrease the cost to even more, and we can waste less parts...in my case, of course that is not a big deal for the DIYers who ususally stock those parts...

 For the ones that don't mind to keep them or through them, well in this case you can send the ones you are not going to use to me....as I will need only the ones needed for two units....


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_Because usually the resistors and small caps came in big packages, and I have no use for the rest later on, OTOH it will be even cheaper if someone get packages of 100 resistors of the given values and split them, among let's say 50 members (in case there is only two or three R of the same value in each circuit) we can decrease the cost to even more, and we can waste less parts...in my case, of course that is not a big deal for the DIYers who ususally stock those parts...

 For the ones that don't mind to keep them or through them, well in this case you can send the ones you are not going to use to me....as I will need only the ones needed for two units....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

You can buy individual resistors from mouser, though. If you're concerned about buying enough for matching the resistors, you don't have to buy that many to get a 0.01% match or something, maybe just like 2 extra resistors or something. Matching caps would be overkill, IMO.


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_If you need me to order to get the min mark me down too but if not then no.i don't really need it for this (already layed out in WOOD ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) but could find another use if it makes the purchase go smoothly

 rickster_

 


 Rickster, that is a *very *generous offer. I appreciate it. I won't know where I stand until everybody firms up their orders and I fit the pieces of the puzzle together.

 To everybody: 

 This is a good time to mention that there will come a time (very shortly I hope) when I need a firm gentleman's commitment, and before the final pricing is completed and payment made. Anyone that backs out after that point will screw it up for everyone else (especially me!). This is necessary because I am working in 1 meter length tubes. Full details later, but I want to emphasize that if you get involved in this, you need to be serious about completing the deal. If a price change of a dollar or two is going to rattle you, this may not be the right group buy for you.

 Sorry to belabor this thread, but I am still waiting for Jude to clear the way to break this into a formal group buy thread.


----------



## threepointone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Here is my own updated BOM, with the corrected resistor value and switches I mentioned previously. I use VD resistors because I am color impaired 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried to set this up to drop into a Mouser BOM import but I think the site will convert tabs to spaces. I included the Meir ID from his schematic. If anyone cares to double check my work, that would be helpful. 

 Mouser Part #QtyMeir ID
 611-E201-0031S0_

 

might want to check the datasheet on that one--looks like it's a different, uglier orange, plastic sleeved switch. 

 I think someone mentioned it was a T series switch. I'm not entirely certain which one is exactly the right one, but it's somewhere on the mouser catalog on either page 1220 or 1221: http://www.mouser.com/catalog/625/1220.pdf, http://www.mouser.com/catalog/625/1221.pdf

 also check the datasheets: 
 T-Series: http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/c...W_toggle_t.pdf
 7000-Series: http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/c...oggle_7000.pdf


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *threepointone* 
_I think someone mentioned it was a T series switch. I'm not entirely certain which one is exactly the right one, but it's somewhere on the mouser catalog on either page 1220 or 1221: http://www.mouser.com/catalog/625/1220.pdf, http://www.mouser.com/catalog/625/1221.pdf_

 

The aforementioned switch is the only eligible one on page 1220, so the better switch should be on page 1221, right? Well no switch on 1221 is eligible; the switch should be DPDT, straight-angle, and with no threaded bushings, but none from page 1221 fit these criteria.


----------



## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Rickster, that is a *very *generous offer. I appreciate it. I won't know where I stand until everybody firms up their orders and I fit the pieces of the puzzle together.

 To everybody: 

 This is a good time to mention that there will come a time (very shortly I hope) when I need a firm gentleman's commitment, and before the final pricing is completed and payment made. Anyone that backs out after that point will screw it up for everyone else (especially me!). This is necessary because I am working in 1 meter length tubes. Full details later, but I want to emphasize that if you get involved in this, you need to be serious about completing the deal. If a price change of a dollar or two is going to rattle you, this may not be the right group buy for you.

 Sorry to belabor this thread, but I am still waiting for Jude to clear the way to break this into a formal group buy thread._

 

What are we looking at price wise though? There is no way anyone can make a commitment before we know the price.

 -Alex-


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *[AK]Zip* 
_What are we looking at price wise though? There is no way anyone can make a commitment before we know the price.

 -Alex-_

 

Alex, I am hoping that the pricing will be very similar to what I quoted above, plus freight in, freight out and insurance. You are looking at something in the neighborhood of $15 - $22 a box, the exact number depending on length (4-6") and how much scrap we have left over. I am hoping that one box, in a shipping container with bubble wrap, will come in under 1 lb and be eligible for the flat rate priority mail rate of around $4.xx. Two boxes will weigh over a pound and add a dollar or two to that rate. Insurance is $1.20 I think; if you do not want insurance, then it will be shipped with at least a delivery confirm and you (not me) take the risk of loss/damage.

 Before I ask for a firm commitment, I will have firmer prices with an anticipated range. I have been given permission to put up a group buy thread. I will do that some time this weekend but I will be tied up the rest of today. Jude then has to approve my opening post. When I get that thread going I will explain how I hope to deal with the fixed length tubes and any left-overs. At this moment we have as many as 20 boxes or slightly more involved and that is good because it will help spread out the scrap costs. That number assumes I can economically work out palchiu's Taiwan situation.

 In the meantime, we should probably concentrate on the switch issue mentioned above, etc. I will post a link to the new thread as soon as it is public.

 Regards,
 Neil


----------



## Ballooshi

Does anyone know if the HA-1 Mk2 board will fit into the same Bopla Alubos enclosure as the Cross-1? Different lengths will be required, I know, but what I am unsure of is whether the HA-1 will require a taller enclosure than the Cross-1. What clearance will be required to fit the tallest components on the HA-1.

 BTW, I received one of each board from Jan --- Cross-1 and HA-1. I would be interested in participating in a group buy for the Bopla enclosures, and want to order --- I just don't know if the same Alubos profile can be used for both projects.

 TIA for your help on this question.


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_Does anyone know if the HA-1 Mk2 board will fit into the same Bopla Alubos enclosure as the Cross-1? Different lengths will be required, I know, but what I am unsure of is whether the HA-1 will require a taller enclosure than the Cross-1. What clearance will be required to fit the tallest components on the HA-1.

 BTW, I received one of each board from Jan --- Cross-1 and HA-1. I would be interested in participating in a group buy for the Bopla enclosures, and want to order --- I just don't know if the same Alubos profile can be used for both projects.

 TIA for your help on this question.



_

 

It depends on what electrolytic caps you use....the ones I plan to use are around 36 mm tall, and I'd want extra clearance for the PCB and solder joints.


----------



## Sovkiller

Ok here is my little contribution, here are some pics of a Jan terminated unit, an original Cross-1 as it came from Germany except the silver wiring...these were taken from my personal unit, so feel free to ask, but there is not much more to look into....hope those pics will fill some of the questions above...


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 It depends on what electrolytic caps you use....the ones I plan to use are around 36 mm tall, and I'd want extra clearance for the PCB and solder joints. 
 

the amp board is wider than the crossfeed board and with the panel bolted up to the pcb it is right to the monting holes which tells me the amp case is not only higher to clear the power supply section but is wider as well.

 If you want the Cross-1 in the original case to bolt on the panel no way you get the amp in that same case


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_the amp board is wider than the crossfeed board and with the panel bolted up to the pcb it is right to the monting holes which tells me the amp case is not only higher to clear the power supply section but is wider as well.

 If you want the Cross-1 in the original case to bolt on the panel no way you get the amp in that same case_

 


 The amp board is designed to slide right into the grooves running along the sides of the Alubos enclosure, a la Eurocard. This could explain the difference in length, but then again I don't know how wide the grooves are in the Alubos enclosure....o' PinkFloyd, where art thou?


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 o' PinkFloyd, where art thou? 
 

Prison in Scotland ! He went nut boy on his trailer trash neighbors and the carnage was extensive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 kiddin'


----------



## star1

The Amp board will fit the Cross case for width, but even a longer case wont do, its not high enough to fit the Alps pot.

 I think the case you will need will be the Alubos 1040 profile, at 42mm high.


----------



## threepointone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_The aforementioned switch is the only eligible one on page 1220, so the better switch should be on page 1221, right? Well no switch on 1221 is eligible; the switch should be DPDT, straight-angle, and with no threaded bushings, but none from page 1221 fit these criteria._

 

I know they're non-stocked, but would something like mouser 611-T201-093 (T201MY9V3BE) or 611-7201MD9V3BE (7201MD9V3BE) work?


----------



## rickcr42

the actual switch is undoubtably a C&K but the pinout for minis is close to standardized,If the C&K part can not be sourced check out Mountain Switch or GC for a close match


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *star1* 
_The Amp board will fit the Cross case for width, but even a longer case wont do, its not high enough to fit the Alps pot.

 I think the case you will need will be the Alubos 1040 profile, at 42mm high._

 

Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I have not spec'ed all the parts yet for the amp (too many darn choices!), and did not know how much clearance I would have.

 Anyhoo... Count me in for one Cross-1 Bopla enclosure on the group buy!

 Will have to see if there is any interest in a different group buy on the ALUBOS profile that fits the HA-1. Anyone else interested?


----------



## Blooze

Got my Cross PCB's and plates today in the mail! Woot, woot!!!!!

 Time to start making the parts list!


----------



## Uncle Erik

NeilR, please count me in on a group buy for cases. I will buy two of them.

 Has anyone sourced the knobs for the Cross I, or did I miss the post on that?

 And again, many thanks to Dr. Meier for making this possible.


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Blooze* 
_Got my Cross PCB's and plates today in the mail! Woot, woot!!!!!

 Time to start making the parts list!_

 


 Hey Blooze... looking for cases?


----------



## NeilR

Here is an updated list of all who have responded with an interest in the Bopla cases. I don't want to waste bandwidth with individual acknowledgements. If you are not on the list either you offended me or I missed you- try again.

 (Really- no one offended me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


 [AK]Zip1
 Ballooshi1
 bigcat392
 calaf2
 cetoole1
 jerb1
 NeilR2
 palchiu6
 pars2
 rickcr420
 sovkiller2
 teerawit1
 threepointone1
 Uncle Eric2
 xikteny1


----------



## NeilR

Very cool... my group buy thread just showed up (Thanks for the quick action Jude!)

 Let's take the case buy discussion here so we can get this thread back to just caps and switches and all that other boring stuff


----------



## NeilR

Star1 - could you do me a big favor and weigh your box, and measure the length. I am trying to calculate shipping weight per inch or mm or whatever.


----------



## star1

Done.

 NeilR, I'll P.M. you with the weight today.


----------



## palchiu

Nice job, star1.


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 Nice job, star1 
 

what he said 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











 .....but no way I ever use "turquiose" switches in an audio project.NOPE ! would rather be shot dead than seen alive with switches that color


----------



## threepointone

for whoever owns a cross-1 right now: could any of you measure the height of the switch sleeve, switch body, the blue vishay caps? I have this feeling some of the parts might not properly align with the front panel. Hmmm... maybe the rotary switches too if it's not much trouble, although i'm relatively sure they're all the right height. 

 Thanks in advance!


----------



## rickcr42

The limiting factor of what can and can not be fitted between the panel and the pcb will be whatever rotary switch is used since that is the actual panel bolt-on point.

 If for some reason you have a need to go to a part that has a slightly taller profile than the original spec part and there is no room once the switches are bolted down see me previous post about "double nutting" the rotary switches.
 It will not add much because you need enough thread on the outter panel side to get the nut on securely but maybe enough to get what you need to mount the part


----------



## Blooze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Hey Blooze... looking for cases?_

 

I really can't decide at this point.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It would be nice to have one unit that looks like the factory spec, but that's really not my style. I have two eight foot boards of 3/4" X 5" padauk and purpleheart that would look quite nice as a case I think. Bevel the edges lengthwise to match the angle on the end panels, then inset the end panels into the wood pieces so they are flush. Still be a rectangular box, but with the beveled edges matching the end panels.

 Then I can build another SOHA to match it that can sit on top!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I love that amp and it's small enough to match a small Cross case.


----------



## threepointone

thanks, I had some weird idea that there was something else controlling the placement of the pcb board--all makes sense now


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *threepointone* 
_for whoever owns a cross-1 right now: could any of you measure the height of the switch sleeve, switch body, the blue vishay caps? I have this feeling some of the parts might not properly align with the front panel. Hmmm... maybe the rotary switches too if it's not much trouble, although i'm relatively sure they're all the right height. 

 Thanks in advance!_

 

I don't think it matters as much, because you could always mount these caps on the other side; ie. the side opposite of the switches. Also if you do it this way, you can be more liberal with the DPDT switch.


----------



## klemchang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Here is an updated list of all who have responded with an interest in the Bopla cases. I don't want to waste bandwidth with individual acknowledgements. If you are not on the list either you offended me or I missed you- try again.

 (Really- no one offended me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

_

 

Hi NeilR,

 I am in for 2 cases. Please add me o the list.


----------



## Blooze

I had a dozen or so RCA jacks I got a while back and went to check the hole size in the rear panel. No way were the ones I have gonna fit. Just a heads up to check the dimensions of the jacks to make sure they'll fit the panel hole.


----------



## Sovkiller

The Rat shack gold plated will fit for sure, i ahve them installed in my original one, as the ones provided were pretty flimsy, not sure if they were the original ones but the plated were all scrapped....if you are not planning to remove them constantly the RS will work just fine...I order the Dayton ones, that parts express sells but not sure if they will fit the holes....


----------



## NeilR

When I saw the hole size, I figured some drilling would be in order....

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Blooze* 
_I had a dozen or so RCA jacks I got a while back and went to check the hole size in the rear panel. No way were the ones I have gonna fit. Just a heads up to check the dimensions of the jacks to make sure they'll fit the panel hole._


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 When I saw the hole size, I figured some drilling would be in order.... 
 

My personal norm is rear entry jacks with the nut outside (enables pulling the electronics out without cutting wires 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 ) but as soon as I seen those holes it was off to Radio Shack and some gold plated generics


----------



## bigcat39

I'm going a different direction. I'm putting a pair of WBT's that I have lying around on the input. On the output , I'm pulling starquad thru the holes and terminating them with plugs. TADA! No new interconnects to make!


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigcat39* 
_I'm going a different direction. I'm putting a pair of WBT's that I have lying around on the input. On the output , I'm pulling starquad thru the holes and terminating them with plugs. TADA! No new interconnects to make!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





_

 

Why not wiring direcxtly through the holes and place an RCA end on each cable, and use it as a big IC and avoid extra jacks.....


----------



## bigcat39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_Why not wiring direcxtly through the holes and place an RCA end on each cable, and use it as a big IC and avoid extra jacks....._

 

I considered that, but this way, I can use it with my portable setup too.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigcat39* 
_I considered that, but this way, I can use it with my portable setup too._

 

but you have two boards and two cases, why not making two


----------



## bigcat39

Heh, cause I have 5 systems.....


----------



## Voodoochile

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigcat39* 
_Heh, cause I have 5 systems....._

 

I'm so sorry to hear that! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Nice problem to have, though.


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 I'm going a different direction. I'm putting a pair of WBT's that I have lying around on the input. On the output , I'm pulling starquad thru the holes and terminating them with plugs. TADA! No new interconnects to make! 
 

Actually it was at one time common practice to use a captive cable on the output side of passive audio devices to keep the "stupid human" element out of the loop.
 That human more often than not who would pay zero attention to the "this is a passive device so keep the output cables short for best peformance" because obviously they knew better than the designer what "short meant.
 This was later discarded as a method to enforce proper use once the "audio cables as jewelry" arrived on the scene (obscene ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) 

if it was not said before let me be the first :

*if you must have a long cable it should be to the input side where it will be driven by an active device.
 The Cross-1 is a totally passive device and as such can "drive" nothing so the cables need to be short on the output or you can expect signal losses and upper octave attentuation *

 If already said here then disregard the cool multicolor visual aid


----------



## star1

Here’s a list that may help anyone building the Cross-1 in the U.K. 

 If there is anyone?

 Please check these parts before ordering.


 Farnell: 422411 1 x CK1027 LORLIN SWITCH 4 POLE 3 POS (remove Solder Tags as sugested by Lorlin themselves )
 Farnell: 422393 2 x CK1025 LORLIN SWITCH 2 POLE 6 POS (remove Solder Tags as suggested by Lorlin themselves )
 Farnell: 9575669 1 x C&K SWITCH, PCB DPDT
 Farnell: 3038609 2 x VISHAY ROEDERSTEIN CAPACITOR, 0.1UF 
 Farnell: 3038580 1 x VISHAY ROEDERSTEIN CAPACITOR, 0.047UF
 Farnell: 1005980 2 x WIMA FKP2 1500PF

 R.S. 298-1557 1 x Blk Alubos case, 106x100x32mm

 I haven’t listed resistors as everyone has there own favourites.


----------



## threepointone

I know I must be going crazy over one little switch, but I've found a US distributer that has nearly the right switch (silver, not gold contacts): onlinecomponents.com, part #T201MH9CQE

 anyone buy from this place before? I think I might end up getting some alternate from mouser bc of the shipping costs and minimum order, though


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_When I saw the hole size, I figured some drilling would be in order...._

 

The panel holes are 0.25" measured. The Ratshack are the only jacks I know of that will fit without drilling the holes out (the Daytons don't fit... checked already). Cardas CTFA will probably be what I use.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* 
_The panel holes are 0.25" measured. The Ratshack are the only jacks I know of that will fit without drilling the holes out (the Daytons don't fit... checked already). Cardas CTFA will probably be what I use._

 

And I ordered already mine, shut!!!! Well i will go with a Carare starquad straight from the board out then....any idea of how to secure it inside the case???


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* 
_The panel holes are 0.25" measured. The Ratshack are the only jacks I know of that will fit without drilling the holes out (the Daytons don't fit... checked already). Cardas CTFA will probably be what I use._

 

how big are the CTFA's?

 and how bad are the ratshacks?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_and how bad are the ratshacks?_

 

IMO very bad.....believe me, pretty flimpsy, but the original ones, used in the original Cross-1 I had, were not so different neither from the RS's....just FYI, and I have never seen any complaint about them here...OK?


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* 
_The panel holes are 0.25" measured. The Ratshack are the only jacks I know of that will fit without drilling the holes out (the Daytons don't fit... checked already). Cardas CTFA will probably be what I use._

 

The Kobiconn RCAs from Mouser will fit. They're like $1 each....but they aren't shiny gold plated


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 The Kobiconn RCAs from Mouser will fit. They're like $1 each....but they aren't shiny gold plated 
 

For low cost generics I just toss on a couple of Radio Shack "golds" in the two-pack (convenience) and to be honest even the el-cheapo four-pack nickel plated ones often.I have never once have had any problems that could be called jack related.

 My other "choice" is the $5 per jack high quality front access/isolated RCA from AES but there is NO WAY they fit this panel without a step drill leading the way


----------



## Blooze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_For low cost generics I just toss on a couple of Radio Shack "golds" in the two-pack (convenience) and to be honest even the el-cheapo four-pack nickel plated ones often.I have never once have had any problems that could be called jack related.

 My other "choice" is the $5 per jack high quality front access/isolated RCA from AES but there is NO WAY they fit this panel without a step drill leading the way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 I've used those nickel Kobiconns from Mouser with no problems.

 Those jacks I've got are like the nice isolated golds I got from Parts Connexion for my Millett and you would definitely have to break out the step bits. Hey, Hey--I may have to do that since my wife got me a little set of step bits for Xmas and I haven't had a chance to use 'em yet!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Rickcr42 - are you getting your caps from Angela? I need to get a PS trafo like a 270FX for my 6EM7 project and might as well add some caps onto the order if I go there for it.


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 Rickcr42 - are you getting your caps from Angela? I need to get a PS trafo like a 270FX for my 6EM7 project and might as well add some caps onto the order if I go there for it 
 


 Yeah,that is the plan.I was just rying to figure out how to "fluff" the order so it would not look so damn weak but other than a couple of caps,maybe a resistor or two wasn't happenin' so have been on a holding pattern 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 630V SCR Tin Foil C1/C2






 600V 716P orange Drop C3/C4/C5


----------



## Uncle Erik

Has anyone figured out which knobs are used on the original? I just searched this thread and it has not been mentioned yet. Anyone?


----------



## rickcr42

Probably if you do a search under "Alco Knobs" you can turn up a compatible one


----------



## rickcr42

Add-on :

 I just "dry fit" one of my NOS bakelite pointer knobs ($8 a pop !!) and 0.75 " is a perfect match if you want to see the panel markings.

 I tried smaller and it was not confortable to operate the rotary switch,larger and it obscured some of the markings.


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_I found another issue with the previously posted Mouser BOM.

 The specified switches have solder tabs. I think that would not end well. I think the correct part numbers are 10WA345 (replacing 10WA365) and 10WA347 (repalcing 10WA367), which appear to be the same, except they are PC mount and have longer (1 3/16" vs 1/2") shafts, similar to Dr. Meir's images on his site. _

 

Neil, the Lorlin switches I specified were 10WA145 and 10WA147 which also have PC tabs. These are non-shorting, while the 345/347 are shorting. What was the consensus on which switch type would be better?

 Sovkiller, do you know which Lorlin switches are in your CROSS-1?


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 Neil, the Lorlin switches I specified were 10WA145 and 10WA147 which also have PC tabs. These are non-shorting, while the 345/347 are shorting. What was the consensus on which switch type would be better? 
 

you are switching in resistors only so I would go with non shorting.When it is input signals being switched and the grounds are switched with the signal then shorting is a must to avoid popping when the grounds are lifted momentatrily.
 as long as there is ground integrity non shorting should be fine for all audio switching or the lowly toggle switch would be unusable


----------



## Blooze

These are the knobs I used on the one I made previously. Not like the original ones, though. They are from MarVac. They look really nice in person and make switching very easy. The silver tophat knobs are from MarVac as well.


----------



## lord.hypnos

NeilR, put me down for 2 cases, please.


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lord.hypnos* 
_NeilR, put me down for 2 cases, please._

 

Lord, you are in the buy. Please use this thread for all group buy discussions:


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_Neil, the Lorlin switches I specified were 10WA145 and 10WA147 which also have PC tabs. These are non-shorting, while the 345/347 are shorting. What was the consensus on which switch type would be better?

 Sovkiller, do you know which Lorlin switches are in your CROSS-1?_

 


 Teerawit- I must have been on drugs or something because I referenced your earlier number to solder terminal switches, which is obviously incorrect. Just ignore me.






 I personally have no opinion on the shorting vs non-shorting issue and was not trying to change that piece of the puzzle. I was just very confused, I guess. At the time I didn't think Mouser carried the PC mount in a non-shorting version. Thanks for the correction!

 Regards,
 Neil


----------



## Teerawit

Well I just ordered the non-shorting ones so I will let you know how it turns out


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_Sovkiller, do you know which Lorlin switches are in your CROSS-1?_

 

Nope, all what you see there is what I see, no numbers at all, unless I remove them and look in the bottom...


----------



## rickcr42

You folks ever come up with the U.S.A. BOM ?

 I have my entire list from just two sources and it could have been all Mouser if I did not go *Off The Farm* for all my caps (Angela SRC 630V C1/C2,SBE 716P Orange Drop 600V) and R15/R16 (Rikens) and Rat Shack RCA jacks

 the mouser order for all Vishay-dale RN60D,the Lorlin Rotaries and the ITT-Cannon C&K DPDT toggle is $29.04

 the angela Order is $24.50

 so less the chassis and Jan's generous offer build comes in at $53.54+shipping so bottom line with jacks around $75 including shipping and taxes.

 not too shabby for the single most flexable crossfeed available build with upgrade parts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 BTW-my knob order is the one that will break the bank @ $30


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_You folks ever come up with the U.S.A. BOM ?

 I have my entire list from just two sources and it could have been all Mouser if I did not go *Off The Farm* for all my caps (Angela SRC 630V C1/C2,SBE 716P Orange Drop 600V) and R15/R16 (Rikens) and Rat Shack RCA jacks

 the mouser order for all Vishay-dale RN60D,the Lorlin Rotaries and the ITT-Cannon C&K DPDT toggle is $29.04

 the angela Order is $24.50

 so less the chassis and Jan's generous offer build comes in at $53.54+shipping so bottom line with jacks around $75 including shipping and taxes.

 not too shabby for the single most flexable crossfeed available build with upgrade parts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 BTW-my knob order is the one that will break the bank @ $30 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

are rikens really worth the SQ difference?

 and do you mean RN60D or RN55D?


----------



## Teerawit

I don't think he likes those "wimpy 1/8 watt" RN55D resistors 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I woulda had my CROSS-1 finished by now if Fedex delivered my Mouser order on Saturday like they were scheduled to


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 I don't think he likes those "wimpy 1/8 watt" RN55D resistors 
 

I need my MAN SIZE resistors ! No reason why I could explain and have it make sense, I just do 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 are rikens really worth the SQ difference? 
 

I personally find an all metal film resistor audio circuit to be a bit "bloodless" and thin toned even though the vishay-dales are among the best in the nuetrality department and are less so than many .
 At the same time using "romantic" resistors may add bloom but if overdone the sound can be ponderous or overly lush so like with my normal way of staggering capacitor type and poles to avoid imparting a signature sound on the electronics (from all one brand) I chose to use different resistors for each point in the circuit path for the Cross-1.

 If there is a single resistor "in circuit" all the time no matter the switch positions it is the R15/R16 pair so I set about matching up the sonic combos that from past experience work well together.With the specific caps selected this turns out it was the Caddok MK-132 but this is only available in a few select values so I went with "door #2" which is the Riken 1% Carbon film.
 this is not your granfathers Carbon film resistor though and is in fact stable over a wide range of temps and is at 1% a precision part so the additional $7.50 for a pair an easy choice.

 If I wanted to go "nut boy" it would have instead been bulk foil vishay resistor/Paper in oil cap but I could not justify that combination for this project on many levels so the bulk of the Cross-1 "voicing" will be Riken/SCR Foil capacitor since they are the main conduits of the stereo signal path and will balance nicely with the SBE/Dale crossing filter.......I think.think detail with guts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am not looking for the typical "plastic" capacitor/metal film resistor sound which to me has a feel as if something was left behind : Like all the weight of music to be replaced with a lighter paler version.

 all about taste and choices and why there is a "Y" in DIY


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 woulda had my CROSS-1 finished by now if Fedex delivered my Mouser order on Saturday like they were scheduled to 
 

the good news is the build should be so fast you will have to blow on the solder joints to cool them so you can plug 'er in and play some music


----------



## Sovkiller

There are only a few parts involved in the signal path at a given time, and also don't forget that if you know the input and output Z you could cut corners and place just one setting on the left and right switch, and let those values "fixed" for your setup, evne skip the switches, those are just added for extra versatility, but they are not absolutelly needed if you know your values....


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 There are only a few parts involved in the signal path at a given time, and also don't forget that if you know the input and output Z you could cut corners and place just one setting on the left and right switch, and let those values "fixed" for your setup, evne skip the switches, those are just added for extra versatility, but they are not absolutelly needed if you know your values.... 
 

I think the cool thing about the Cross-1 is the infinite combinations and that includes the subtle hi/lo trim.

 Even into a stable and known load and driven by a known constant the micro-tuning the simple resistors allows means you can dial in the sound YOU like without resorting to a full blown mini-EQ (which i have one of BTW-DIY Mini Pultec 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )

 Worst case is still a low parts count in the signal path : one more resistor for each "trim" position making the total 5 resistors worst case.not too shabby 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This is a fun project for me and I am excited to get the parts and get it done _knowing _ it will not only look cool from my mock-up of the panels to the walnut caps,measuring everything to make sure it all fits but from previous experience with similiar Jan Meier crossfeed circuits going on six years now


----------



## rickcr42

BTW-Don't seem to remember an exact C&K toggle mentioned so this is the one I ordered.

http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?hand...oductid=373353


----------



## Teerawit

I ordered a C+K toggle switch but I stupidly ordered an inappropriate one. Good thing I still have use for it in another project, but that thing is that the search ensues


----------



## rickcr42

the hard part is not finding the right size to fit the pads but finding one with a smooth 'neck" instead of threads for mounting hardare.i am pretty confident the one linked above is the spec part


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_the hard part is not finding the right size to fit the pads but finding one with a smooth 'neck" instead of threads for mounting hardare.i am pretty confident the one linked above is the spec part_

 

Yours has 4.7 mm pin spacing. The PCB requires 2.5 mm spacing.


----------



## rickcr42

well that figures 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 no big deal though,have a "threaded" dpdt that will look like crap but at least fit


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_well that figures 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 no big deal though,have a "threaded" dpdt that will look like crap but at lkeast fit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Believe me, I learned it the hard way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I didn't find any suitable C+K switch from Mouser....so time to search Digikey.


----------



## threepointone

erm... that's the angle-mount version. I was thinking of going this way, bending the legs and cutting the legs, but i'm not sure if those legs are actually bendable or if they'll be long enough--they don't really seem so in the product photos in the datasheet: http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/c...oggle_7000.pdf
 the switches with "9AV" in the mfr. model # appear to be angle mounted switches with bendable legs, but I'm not sure and they're not stocked at mouser. 

 I know that the right switch is a T series c&k switch. from what i've heard, it's pretty readily available in europe, but not the US.

 I've found one place where they sell nearly the right one in the US: 
 part# T201MH9CQE
http://www.onlinecomponents.com/sear...urer=ITTCANNON

 The only difference there seems to be with this and the proper part is that the legs are silver, not gold. Probably won't make a difference. The only reason I haven't gone for it yet is that there's a $30 minimum order, and I don't know how much they'd charge for shipping. If you can get the angle mount pieces to fit properly, then i'll probably go for those. Otherwise--group buy maybe? pretty insignificant part, though. . .

 [edit]
 t-series also has the right spacing:
http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/c...W_toggle_t.pdf
 2.5mm spacing
 [/edit]


----------



## rickcr42

problem is none of them seem to be an exact fit in all things.

 there is the smooth barrel,the pin spacing,body height,a real freaking pain and i have the actualk damn catalog 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Guess I better get my eyes checked 'cause I am not feeling it


----------



## threepointone

I just checked the mouser catalog too--I think 108-0052 might work? subminiature size, threading is 4.95mm diameter, 2.54mm pin spacing, 5.59mm thread height, 8.64mm body height, unthreaded, gold/silver plated--almost exactly the same as the t series switches. the horizontal pin spacing is 5.08mm compared to 4.06mm, though--should that matter?

 [edit]
 nvm, seems like a typo in the datasheet or something--says 5.08mm later on. I think this is almost a perfect match.
 there's also an alcoswitch TT21NGPC1 (mouser 506-TT21NGPC1) that seems pretty close--it's 4 times more expensive than mountain switch, though, for whatever reason
 [/edit]


----------



## rickcr42

thw mouser catalog is actually starting to piss me off with its limited T-Series switch selection 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would not mind so much if not for the shipping rates where to not order a bunch of stuff just does not justify the added cost and to have to order from digikey,a single damn part,would do that and then some.

 Angela Order-in

 Mouser order-on hold 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 no way i'm spending $30 on shipping for $50 in parts so it looks like a replacement and back to pouring through the frinkin catalogs


----------



## [AK]Zip

Does anyone have a finished BOM for this? I really don't feel like putting together a 2nd BOM since I just got finished doing the HA-1 BOM. Also if the switch is the same for this as it is for the HA-1 then its: Mouser part no: 612-200-C2262

 If you don't want to post your BOM please PM me and send it to me that way.

 -Alex-


----------



## Teerawit

It's not the same toggle switch as on the HA-1. The one on the HA-1 is right-angled. CROSS-1 wants a straight angle.


----------



## rickcr42

I was going to respond to this thread but I think five fkn minutes to load the page then transition to the "respond" window is a bit fkn much and I no longer have crap to say on this.What is up here ? I have ZERO lag time any where else !


----------



## Blooze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_I was going to respond to this thread but I think five fkn minutes to load the page then transition to the "respond" window is a bit fkn much and I no longer have crap to say on this.What is up here ? I have ZERO lag time any where else ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I had the same problem.

 Breathe deeply, Grasshopper, breathe..........


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 Breathe deeply, Grasshopper, breathe.......... 
 

...kicked the cat,slapped the neighbor,yelled at the mailman and went rampaging around the block a few times in my jeep trying to hit small animals so I feel MUCH better now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 anyway,I am at a dead standstill trying to source the correct switch from Mouser and for that reason the order has been on hold but this is getting late in the day and it is time to BUILD SOMETHING so the order is going in "as is",the Angela order is already in transit and if i have to I will hook up one of these for each channel to do the "in/out" switching 






 time to get this circus off the damn train and into the Big Top


----------



## threepointone

has anyone else looked at mouser 506-TT21NGPC1 or mouser 108-0052 yet? they seem to be up to spec to me for the switch.


----------



## Pars

Just a quick look at the footprint suggests that either one would work. Not sure about the vertical size, i.e. how it would line up with the front panel with the selector switches.


----------



## dhp

I ordered 108-0052, so when my order arrives, I'll let you know how it fits


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 Just a quick look at the footprint suggests that either one would work. Not sure about the vertical size, i.e. how it would line up with the front panel with the selector switches. 
 

I would also watch the panel to switch spacing or you could find a situation where either you can not crank down the rotary switch nuts if the shoulder is too high or have the toggle shaft cover stick out too far or even not at all.Real pain in the butt part and i have given up trying to source it from mouser and will do the build without it for now


----------



## [AK]Zip

Since a lot of people are ordering / have already ordered; could someone please PM me their BOM or BOM list even if it is missing a few things. I really don't feel like making another BOM right now after the HA-1.

 Thanks,
 Alex


----------



## rickcr42

you want what I have ? 

 The Angela order is all caps and two resistors,Mouser the rest of the resistors and the two rotaries with the DPDT toggle MIA until someone sorts out the mouser #.

 I personally have spent all the time I am willing to spend on it and instead will do the "Pinkfloyd Mod" and will *hammer* another switch in if I need to


----------



## [AK]Zip

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_you want what I have ? 

 The Angela order is all caps and two resistors,Mouser the rest of the resistors and the two rotaries with the DPDT toggle MIA until someone sorts out the mouser #.

 I personally have spent all the time I am willing to spend on it and instead will do the "Pinkfloyd Mod" and will *hammer* another switch in if I need to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Anything to atleast give me a start would be great.

 -Alex-


----------



## rickcr42

PM sent

 BTW-Mouser comes to $27+shipping,
 Angela $17+shipping 

 and that is w/o the DPDT switch 

 So $42++ using all Vishay-Dale RN60 resistors ( BIG,should fit but you may want RN55 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) except for R15/R16 where I chose to use Rikens @ $4 per,SCR 0.1uF/630VDC Tin Foil Capacitors for C1/C2,SBE 600VDC "Orange Drop" Capacitors for the 0.047uF C5 and the 0.0015uF C3/C4.


----------



## rickcr42

BTW ll

 -The caps will NOT fit the pc board ! I have phenolic Turret Boards for the off-board mounted caps so unless you are ready to buy some form of off board mounting device do not try to squeeze in these parts or you will have nothing but trouble.

 they will not fit the holes and if they did would be "hanging" instead of the proper solid mounting caps need (very microphonic)


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_ Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* 
Just a quick look at the footprint suggests that either one would work. Not sure about the vertical size, i.e. how it would line up with the front panel with the selector switches.

 

I would also watch the panel to switch spacing or you could find a situation where either you can not crank down the rotary switch nuts if the shoulder is too high or have the toggle shaft cover stick out too far or even not at all.Real pain in the butt part and i have given up trying to source it from mouser and will do the build without it for now_

 

Sorry I wasn't more clear... the PCB to panel spacing was what I meant when I said vertical... Fortunately even Dr. Meier's assembly guide has you pulling the switch as far out of the board as you can get it before soldering (for alignment with the faceplate), so that at least suggests enough slop that alternate switches SHOULD work.


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pars* 
_Sorry I wasn't more clear... the PCB to panel spacing was what I meant when I said vertical... Fortunately even Dr. Meier's assembly guide has you pulling the switch as far out of the board as you can get it before soldering (for alignment with the faceplate), so that at least suggests enough slop that alternate switches SHOULD work._

 


 someone needs to actually weasle one in and report even though I am toast having already placed the order this evening and no way am I paying as much to ship a single switch as the cost of the switch itself being a total tightwad so looks like i better get my junk box out


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_BTW ll

 -The caps will NOT fit the pc board ! I have phenolic Turret Boards for the off-board mounted caps so unless you are ready to buy some form of off board mounting device do not try to squeeze in these parts or you will have nothing but trouble.

 they will not fit the holes and if they did would be "hanging" instead of the proper solid mounting caps need (very microphonic)_

 

ugh, looks like I'll be shopping some more


----------



## NeilR

*FINAL NOTICE FOR CROSS-1 CASE GROUP BUY!!!!!!!!!*


 I will be closing out the Cross-1 case group buy in 48 hours. Please reply here or PM me IMMEDIATELY if you are interested in a case and are not listed on the first post of this thread.

 This will be the final notice in this thread for the case group buy.

 Regards,
 Neil


----------



## NeilR

Just a follow up that I hope to plan in a couple of short (1-2") scrap cases to test the screws. Before I ship the cases and screws I will do test taps in the scrap to make sure the screws work. We are making an assumptiuon here that 4-40 = M3, more or less. I don't like assumptions; they come back to haunt me. Better I have to return 300 screws than have you guys posting about the taps not holding or whatever.


----------



## rickcr42

Heads up on an alternate switch (and other parts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ) source :

http://www.smallbearelec.com/StoreFront.bok

 Have the Lorlins and Mountain Switch toggles.Forgot all about one of my "favorite" suppliers


----------



## Teerawit

How about this toggle switch from Mouser:

 506-TT21NGPC1 on-none-on
 506-TT21PGPC1 on-off-on

 What's the difference between on-none-on and on-off-on?


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 What's the difference between on-none-on and on-off-on? 
 

center "off" position so two clicks instead of the noraml 1/2 of a DPDT.Would drive you nuts in place of a normal switch but works great as a A/OFF/B type switch


----------



## Teerawit

So what type of toggle switch would be better for the CROSS-1? both of those have 3 positions. Should the CROSS-1 use a two-position DPDT?


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_So for the CROSS-1 the on-off-on is better? That switch is the more expensive of the two listed.

 So what does the center position of the on-none-on do?_

 


 No.Regular ON/ON DPDT with one position being the bypass and the other crossfeed "in".

 with a "center off" type switch the center is a total circuit disconnect (it has no contacts with the acutal audio circuit) and not at all suited for use with the Cross-1.


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rickcr42* 
_No.Regular ON/ON DPDT with one position being the bypass and the other crossfeed "in".

 with a "center off" type switch the center is a total circuit disconnect (it has no contacts with the acutal audio circuit) and not at all suited for use with the Cross-1._

 

Yeah, I just checked the schemes and the off position would yield unproductive results.


----------



## threepointone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_So what type of toggle switch would be better for the CROSS-1? both of those have 3 positions._

 

the on-none-on one is the one you're looking for. It actually has two positions, even though they add the "none" in the middle. So TT21NGPC1 should be the right one. post on how well this switch works as a replacement / how well it looks when you get it--so far, it seems that it's either this switch or 108-0052 which will work from mouser.


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *threepointone* 
_so far, it seems that it's either this switch or 108-0052 which will work from mouser._

 

hmmmmm....choices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the 108-0052 is certainly much cheaper.

 Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 the on-none-on one is the one you're looking for 
 

I kinda sorta almost roundabout said that


----------



## dhp

well, so far as I can tell, that mountain switch threepointone pointed out will work. Looks nice so far, and it's red too


----------



## rickcr42

any one have the exact part number of the original C&K handy ? (I'm sure it is in the thread but 10 pages is a bit much}

 I would like to cross reference the Electroswitch lines for an exact match then see if Mickey Mouse....I mean mouser has _THAT_ one as a stock item.One of the below just has to be a 1:1 matchup

http://www.electro-nc.com/miniature/minp4954.pdf
http://www.electro-nc.com/miniature/minp3843.pdf
http://www.electro-nc.com/miniature/minexpandeda.pdf


----------



## threepointone

i don't think anyone ever found it specifically--i think it's the T201MH9CBE, though


----------



## dhp

hmm, how do i know which orientation for the switches is the correct one?

 ugh, the switches don't quite work out the way i want them too


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *threepointone* 
_i don't think anyone ever found it specifically--i think it's the T201MH9CBE, though_

 

T201MH9CBE --- I second that.


----------



## rickcr42

not from mouser folks.I even contemplated the right angle "ABE" version and they want an order for 500 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I can not justify paying $10 shipping for a single $4 switch from another source but nice to have the number anyway.thanks


----------



## mb3k

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Here is my own updated BOM, with the corrected resistor value and switches I mentioned previously. I use VD resistors because I am color impaired 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I tried to set this up to drop into a Mouser BOM import but I think the site will convert tabs to spaces. I included the Meir ID from his schematic. If anyone cares to double check my work, that would be helpful. 

 Mouser Part #QtyMeir ID
 10WA3452S1 S3
 10WA3471S2
 611-E201-0031S0
 505-FKP21500/100/2.52C3 C4
 505-MKP20.047/250/51C5
 505-MKP20.1/250/52 C1 C2
 71-RN55D-F-1502R7 R8
 71-RN55D-F-3924R11 R12 R13 R14
 71-RN55D-F-4752R5 R6
 71-RN55D-F-1.0K4R3 R4 R9 R10
 71-RN55D-F-2.21K2R1 R2
 71-RN55D-F-3.65K4R19 R20 R21 R22
 71-RN55D-F-3.92K2R15 R16
 71-RN55D-F-10K2R23 R24
 71-RN55D-F-11.3K2R17 R18
 71-RN55D-F-15K2R25 R26
 71-RN55D-F-22.1K2R27 R28
 71-RN55D-F-33.2K2R29 R30
 71-RN55D-F-47.5K2R31 R32
 517-SJ5518BK4Feet_

 

I noticed you used slightly different resistor values... ie. 3.65kohm instead of 3.6kohms which are available.
 I changed some resistor values to reflect more exactly like Meier's values from his website.
 Here's the semi-changed list:




 Not sure about the C&K switch.

*EDIT:* You can't really copy and paste the mouser numbers because it's a picture, so here's a quick list of the mouser numbers above in the picture for easy "copy and paste":
  Code:


```
[left]10WA345 10WA347 611-E201-003 505-FKP21500/100/2.5 505-MKP20.047/250/5 505-MKP20.1/250/5 71-RN55D-F-150 71-RN55D-F-392 71-RN55D-F-475 71-RN55D-F-1.0K 71-RN55D-F-2.2K 71-RN55D-F-3.6K 71-RN55D-F-3.92K 71-RN55D-F-10K 71-RN55D-F-11K 71-RN55D-F-15K 71-RN55D-F-22.1K 71-RN55D-F-33K 71-RN55D-F-47K 517-SJ5518BK 546-1455N1201BK[/left]
```


----------



## rickcr42

Quote:


 EDIT: You can't really copy and paste the mouser numbers because it's a picture, so here's a quick list of the mouser numbers above in the picture for easy "copy and paste": 
 

If you get a copy of the free "PDF Creator" you can choose the print option to save the whole page to a pdf file which you can then park somewhere for others to download


----------



## mb3k

There seems to be quite a discussion about the switch, but I haven't had time to read all the replies, so I'm not sure if the C&K one listed would work.


----------



## Teerawit

It won't; none of the C&K switches from Mouser will work.


----------



## dhp

damn, i took my resistor values straight from NeilR's... eh, hopefully it won't matter TOO much...


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_damn, i took my resistor values straight from NeilR's... eh, hopefully it won't matter TOO much..._

 

Part# 71-RN55D-F-3.6K is non-stocked, with a minimum of 100. There was a reason I went with 3.65K 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried to get as close as I could with stocked values. Any other issues with my list?


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Part# 71-RN55D-F-3.6K is non-stocked, with a minimum of 100. There was a reason I went with 3.65K 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried to get as close as I could with stocked values. Any other issues with my list?_

 

I'm sure it'll be fine 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 now... if only those caps would come in...
 and the rotary switches make me sad... they're flat on the side that doesn't match up


----------



## mb3k

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Part# 71-RN55D-F-3.6K is non-stocked, with a minimum of 100. There was a reason I went with 3.65K 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I tried to get as close as I could with stocked values. Any other issues with my list?_

 

Ahh, sorry I was probably blind and didn't look at the break price.


----------



## dhp

so, anyone got any good sources for cheap knobs that work nicely for this cross-1?


----------



## Ballooshi

Have any of you used V/D RN60 (1/4 watt) resistors instead of RN55 (1/8 watt) that NeilR and mb3k show in their BOM's? Will the RN60 fit next to the bodies of the Lorlin rotaries, and have enough clearance between the PCB and the faceplate?


----------



## Sovkiller

What you need 1/4 watt resistors for? This is a passive device, which load is extremelly low, line level signals, that will not dissipate even 1/1000 of watt....Those not evne get warm....


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* 
_What you need 1/4 watt resistors for? This is a passive device, which load is extremelly low, line level signals, that will not dissipate even 1/1000 of watt....Those not evne get warm...._

 

Thanks Sovkiller, you've given me my answer for the Cross-1. I'm wrestling with the the same question on the Corda HA-1 Mk2 HeadAmp build, which is not a passive device. Any recommendations for that? Jan says on his web site that he uses 1/4 watt metal films, but the V/D RN60 1/4 watt are too big for the PCB lead spacing. Only the V/D RN55 1/8 watt will fit the PCB. I don't want to have a bad surprise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if the RN55 doesn't cut the mustard!


----------



## threepointone

I think tangent has said that the vishay-dale RNxx series are military-spec, so they're rated 1/8 watt in some sort of extreme conditions (maybe insanely high temperatures or pressures or something). In normal use, though, according to tangent, they should be able to handle at least 1/4 watt


----------



## mb3k

Has anyone found the correct C&K switch (or an equivalent), and some good looking dials?


----------



## Blooze

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_so, anyone got any good sources for cheap knobs that work nicely for this cross-1?_

 


 I like these ones I found at MarVac. They have lots of cheap knobs in the hardware section. The one's I used for my DIY Cross I like very much. Here's my post about them a while back. They may have some that look just like the one's Jan uses.

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showp...&postcount=169


----------



## mb3k

*Updated* BOM
 - Availability of mouser products considered
 - Mountain Switch confirmed to fit







 Here's the PDF:
http://www.mb3k.com/hosted/CordaCross1BOM.pdf

 Edit: BOM updated again!


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mb3k* 
_Has anyone found the correct C&K switch (or an equivalent), and some good looking dials?_

 

For the switch, 450-1327-ND from Digi-Key should work.... costs $9.50 though, and a $25 minimum order to avoid $5 handling fee.

http://rocky.digikey.com/scripts/Pro...50&M=TT21NGPC1


----------



## dhp

i used the mountain switch from mouser that threepointone pointed out, and so far, it looks like it'll work. My parts arrived just recently, im just waiting on the caps to arrive soon


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_i used the mountain switch from mouser that threepointone pointed out, and so far, it looks like it'll work. My parts arrived just recently, im just waiting on the caps to arrive soon_

 

Yes, I think that Mountain switch from Mouser (108-0052) will also fit just right, and you can't beat the price, $2.74.

 The Tyco/Alcoswitch that I mentioned a few posts back from Digi-Key (450-1327-ND) is also available from Mouser (506-TT21NGPC1), cost $8.55.


----------



## mb3k

I found a good looking knob, which resembles the original one but different style. It's chosen to be 0.75" in diameter with a 0.25" shaft. In a previous post, it was said that a 0.75" diameter will allow the dots on the faceplate to be seen the best (can anybody else confirm this?).
 It's the second one from the left:




 Digikey #: 226-4006-ND


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mb3k* 
_I found a good looking knob, which resembles the original one but different style. It's chosen to be 0.75" in diameter with a 0.25" shaft. In a previous post, it was said that a 0.75" diameter will allow the dots on the faceplate to be seen the best (can anybody else confirm this?).
 It's the second one from the left:




 Digikey #: 226-4006-ND_

 

you can use a ruler, but yeah, it seems that .75" diameter will work. I just hope my 20mm diameter knobs will work, I bought 8 of them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (It seems that they may, but it's a really close fit)


----------



## mb3k

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_you can use a ruler, but yeah, it seems that .75" diameter will work. I just hope my 20mm diameter knobs will work, I bought 8 of them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (It seems that they may, but it's a really close fit)_

 

Unfortunately I missed out on the faceplates (but got some boards), so it forces me to put it in a different enclosure. I'll be engraving my own plates (measurements straight from Meier himself, thanks!), here's a paper-mock-up of the hammond enclosure with faceplates:









 A bunch of people said the holes on the backplate for the female RCA's are not big enough - I guess I'll have to change the diameter of the holes to fit.


----------



## lord.hypnos

Can anyone confirm that the Mountain switch is correct? I am itching to place an order.


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lord.hypnos* 
_Can anyone confirm that the Mountain switch is correct? I am itching to place an order._

 

That is the one I ordered.

 Take a look at the spec sheet here for the Mountain switch (Mouser part 108-0052) ....

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/MS-100468.pdf

 And the spec sheet here for the C&K T Series ... Part #'s beginning with "T201" (DPDT, On,None,On) and termination type "C" (PC thru-hole)....

http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/c...W_toggle_t.pdf

 They both appear to be identical parts.... the pins will fit the PCB DPDT switch pads - .10" by .20" (2.54mm by 5.08mm) grid spacing, and the length of the pins and switch body are the same.

 Kudos to threepointone and DieInAFire for pointing out this Mountain switch


----------



## lord.hypnos

My Mouser order came in much sooner than I had planned, but Mouser is backordered on the middle Lorlin switch, so I went ahead without it. I started matching and soldering the resistors:





 Side A:





 Side B:





 Now with the switches installed.













 I found that it was easiest to get the Mountain switch to fit flush with the front by using a piece of tape over the front of the hole allowing enough room for the toggle to protrude.

 Once my cases from Neil, my Cardas CTFA jacks, my backordered Kilo knobs from Digikey, and the backordered switch from Mouser get here, I'll finish these.


----------



## Teerawit

Very nice lord.hypnos. Which toggle switch did you use exactly?


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_Very nice lord.hypnos. Which toggle switch did you use exactly?_

 

the mountain switch


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_Very nice lord.hypnos. Which toggle switch did you use *exactly*?_

 

bolded for emphasis 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 part no.? Is it 108-0052? Just verifying, wanna hear it from the lord.hypnos himself, thx


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_bolded for emphasis 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 part no.? Is it 108-0052? Just verifying, wanna hear it from the lord.hypnos himself, thx 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

yes, it's that part #. I have that switch in my hand right now


----------



## dhp

btw, I think you soldered the caps on the wrong way... the .1uF and the 1500nF


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_yes, it's that part #. I have that switch in my hand right now_

 

Great....I don't wanna order the wrong parts again...this time I'm taking no prisoners


----------



## lord.hypnos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_btw, I think you soldered the caps on the wrong way... the .1uF and the 1500nF_

 

Yes, I did. I took them out of the bags, and then put them back in the wrong ones. Good thing I always order extras.

 That is the 108-0052 Mountain switch.


----------



## lord.hypnos

Thanks for the good eyes, DieInAFire. Here are the caps switched:


----------



## dhp

Looks good


----------



## threepointone

nvm


----------



## dhp

****, i soldered in my rotary switches upside down


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_****, i soldered in my rotary switches upside down_

 

What a pain.... sorry. I'm sure you can fix.

 Unfortunately it's too late for you, but others should take a look at Sovkiller's post on page 6 of this thread. It has pictures of the Jan Meier built Cross-1 showing the correct switch orientation.


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_What a pain.... sorry. I'm sure you can fix.

 Unfortunately it's too late for you, but others should take a look at Sovkiller's post on page 6 of this thread. It has pictures of the Jan Meier built Cross-1 showing the correct switch orientation._

 

huh... my orientation is the same as Sovkiller's, but different from Jan Meier's pic on his website.


----------



## star1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DieInAFire* 
_huh... my orientation is the same as Sovkiller's, but different from Jan Meier's pic on his website._

 

I used Jans site for my build, and I'm sure its the same layout as Sovkiller's pictures.


----------



## dhp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *star1* 
_I used Jans site for my build, and I'm sure its the same layout as Sovkiller's pictures._

 

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y53...comparison.jpg

 now that i think about it, it doesn't matter


----------



## Teerawit

Anyone have an extra 108-0052 mountain switch by any chance?


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_Anyone have an extra 108-0052 mountain switch by any chance?_

 

Teerawit, I liked your old avatar much better.... (me Hawkeye, you Wolverine!)


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_Teerawit, I liked your old avatar much better.... (me Hawkeye, you Wolverine!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL...I saw your avatar and I just had to change mine


----------



## NeilR

I am looking for gold plated RCA jacks that will fit in the panels without covering up the engraving. I don't mind enlarging the existing hole, but I do not want to get into recentering it. I usually use Cardas CFTA jacks but they have a rather large overall diameter and will cover much of the engraving.

 Any suggestions would be appreciated!

 Regards,
 Neil


----------



## Sovkiller

The Daytons are not that big and will fit IMO, take a look, even with the washer, they will not cover, just that the hole must be in the same center as the original ones, if you are not careful enough and move them up a little bit, the engravings will be covered partially at least:


----------



## lord.hypnos

The CTFAs leave about half a millimeter for spacing between the washer and the text.


----------



## Sovkiller

Good to know...I think that the Daytons are very similar if not the same....


----------



## sphinxllama

Hello,

 my question is where did you get the board? Is it directly from Dr. Meier? 

 Can I also use a breadboard?

 Thanks for the help and sorry for my bad english!


----------



## NeilR

Anybody tried subbing the break before make version for the unavailable CK1057 switch?


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lord.hypnos* 
_The CTFAs leave about half a millimeter for spacing between the washer and the text.




_

 

Thanks- that image was very helpful!


----------



## star1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_Can I also use a breadboard?_

 

Have a look at this picture its on the Meier-Audio site.


----------



## sphinxllama

@star1 

 Thanks for your quick reply! I will try to build the cross-1 this way. Also thanks for the partnumbers at farnells, it works fine with the german farnell shop too.

 Did you buy the breadboard also at farnells? Maybe you can tell me the partnumber.

 I got the idea of building the cross-1 on this site:
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-on...sivefilter.htm
 thought it is the original meier-audio homepage but couldnt find the picture you posted.

 Thanks 
 Kim


----------



## Blooze

sphinxllama:

 The picture is on that site in the artistique section (or something like that). It's not with the cross section.

 FWIW I built the air wired version and it seems to work fine.


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Anybody tried subbing the break before make version for the unavailable CK1057 switch?_

 

Neil, I have used the non-shorting Lorlin rotaries before, when I built the Cross-1 on a Rat Shack perf board. They work just fine. Of course they should, as I e-mailed Jan Meier and asked him which he used! I am using them again for this build.

 Mouser #s: 10WA147 Lorlin 4x3, 10WA145 Lorlin 2x6


----------



## NeilR

Thanks, Ballooshi! Any clicks or pops as you rotate the switch?


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Thanks, Ballooshi! Any clicks or pops as you rotate the switch?_

 

None at all.


----------



## threepointone

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_Neil, I have used the non-shorting Lorlin rotaries before, when I built the Cross-1 on a Rat Shack perf board. They work just fine. Of course they should, as I e-mailed Jan Meier and asked him which he used! I am using them again for this build.

 Mouser #s: 10WA147 Lorlin 4x3, 10WA145 Lorlin 2x6_

 

now i'm getting confused. So is the shorting or the non-shorting switch the right switch? Wasn't it agreed on wayyyyyy back that the non-shorting one is the right switch which wouldn't give you any pops/clicks?


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *threepointone* 
_now i'm getting confused. So is the shorting or the non-shorting switch the right switch? Wasn't it agreed on wayyyyyy back that the non-shorting one is the right switch which wouldn't give you any pops/clicks?_

 

The part numbers I listed are for non-shorting switches. I don't know if any concensus was reached during the discussions on the first two pages in this thread, but both versions evidently work just fine. Blooze said he used the shorting switches without problems (no clicks / pops). I used the non-shorting rotaries with no problems either. Jan Meier said that he uses the non-shorting, which is why I used them.

 Edit: Also some discussion about shorting vs. non-shorting on page 9 of this thread (Teerawit and rickcr42). Anyone else out there who has completed their build and wishes to comment?


----------



## sphinxllama

one more question

 do I need metall resistors with 0.1% or do the 1% work fine for this cross-1?

 thanks


----------



## Teerawit

1% resistors work fine.


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_one more question

 do I need metall resistors with 0.1% or do the 1% work fine for this cross-1?

 thanks_

 

Yes, and also be sure that you match the respective left and right channel resistors using your meter, and you'll be fine with the 1% metal films.


----------



## sphinxllama

OK,

 Today I ordered all the parts I need for this projekt! Hopefully everything will arrive befor the weekend so I can start build an the listen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Would anyone of you, who has the cross-1 build on a breadboard post some pictures here. Its my first real project and I thing this will help me and everybody else who is new in DIY to build it!

 Thanks 

 Kim


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_
 Would anyone of you, who has the cross-1 build on a breadboard post some pictures here. Its my first real project and I thing this will help me and everybody else who is new in DIY to build it!
_

 

Here you go, Cross-1 on a Rat Shack perf board. Not pretty, but it works great! Good Luck with your build.


----------



## mb3k

Wow, that's a beast.. in a zoo.
 Clean though


----------



## Ballooshi

Yeah, it will be nice to use the real Cross-1 PCB (Thanks Jan!) this time around, and get rid of all the spaghetti.


----------



## sphinxllama

@Ballooshi
 Thanks a lot for the pictures! Your Cross-1 lookes really nice!!!

 Today I studied the shematic you postet and I got confuesed with the resistors! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Because the coulores on the picture differ from the partlist colores.

 Whould you mind to have look on my shematic an tell me if the resistors are correctly placed!

http://home.arcor.de/kimhaagundevast...ss/Cross-1.jpg

http://home.arcor.de/kimhaagundevast...s/Cross-11.jpg

http://home.arcor.de/kimhaagundevast...ss/Cross10.sch
 last one is an eagle shematic!!!


 Sorry for all this trouble, but I really want this thing to work! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks a lot


----------



## PinkFloyd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_Here you go, Cross-1 on a Rat Shack perf board. Not pretty, but it works great! Good Luck with your build.







































_

 

Awesome! Superb painting by numbers diagram, absolutely fantastic stuff ballooshi


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_Thanks a lot for the pictures! Your Cross-1 lookes really nice!!!

 Today I studied the shematic you postet and I got confuesed with the resistors! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Because the coulores on the picture differ from the partlist colores.
_

 

Don't look at the colors - look at the numbers I placed around the perimeter of my crude perf board picture, then compare those with the numbers on the schematic to get the values of the components. 1=R1, 2=R2, C1=C1, J=Jumper, etc. My apologies that some of the Jumpers on the board are not labeled, but the unlabeled black lines are generally jumpers. The black dots are where you hook up wires from the switches and in / out jacks. Hope that helps you decipher it.


----------



## PinkFloyd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_Don't look at the colors - look at the numbers I placed around the perimeter of my crude perf board picture, then compare those with the numbers on the schematic to get the values of the components. 1=R1, 2=R2, C1=C1, J=Jumper, etc. My apologies that some of the Jumpers on the board are not labeled, but the unlabeled black lines are generally jumpers. The black dots are where you hook up wires from the switches. Hope that helps you decipher it._

 

Jesus, they want jam on it! Perfectly understandable diagram and thanks for taking the time Ballooshi, even an idiot could understand how to put that together


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PinkFloyd* 
_Jesus, they want jam on it! Perfectly understandable diagram and thanks for taking the time Ballooshi, even an idiot could understand how to put that together 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Naw... it's his first build, gotta' cut him some slack. Helping out is what Head-Fi is all about. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 We can rip him a new one on his second build! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My first was a CMOY, then the Cross-1, now here I am with the HA-1 and another Cross-1. It's a disease, eh?


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_
 My first was a CMOY, then the Cross-1, now here I am with the HA-1 and another Cross-1. It's a disease, eh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I like Michigan and I don't have any disease


----------



## PinkFloyd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_Naw... it's his first build, gotta' cut him some slack. Helping out is what Head-Fi is all about. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My first was a CMOY, then the Cross-1, now here I am with the HA-1 and another Cross-1. It's a disease, eh? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nooo! I didn't mean "him" (whoever he is) I meant people in general. Yeh, helping out is what it's all about, done "plenty" of it over the years myself


----------



## NeilR

Just a reminder that I will most likely have 4 cases available at the conclusion of the group buy, assuming we don't lose any or too many in the mail.

 If you missed out on the group buy, it's not too late! PM me if any interest.

 Edit: one of the left over cases is 5.3" long. It is possible that Ballooshi's configuration would fit in that box. The other 3 cases are only about 3.8" long, which may be be enough room to fit the board, switches and parts. In any event you would have to supply your own front and back panels, which could probably be fabricated easily from acrylic.

 Regards,
 Neil


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_I like Michigan and I don't have any disease 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I don't think Wolverines are immune to bird flu... or a case of Hawkeye whoop-ass either!!


----------



## sphinxllama

Oh, now I got it.

 Shame on me, but I concentrated on the second picture because didnt know what all the numbers are for. Should think,look first and then write!

 Thanks


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_Oh, now I got it.

 Shame on me, but I concentrated on the second picture because didnt know what all the numbers are for. Should think,look first and then write!

 Thanks_

 

The second picture is great for figuring out where to hook all of the wires from the switches and jacks. Double check it against the schematic in the third picture and you should be good to go.

 Good Luck!


----------



## NeilR

Could someone who has built and cased their unit confirm to me that the rotary switch alignment pins need to be ground down?

 I know this is a no-brainer but it never hurts to ask, especially since the fit of the mechanical parts is so critical here


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Could someone who has built and cased their unit confirm to me that the rotary switch alignment pins need to be ground down?

 I know this is a no-brainer but it never hurts to ask, especially since the fit of the mechanical parts is so critical here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

just like on Meier's website; I double checked the signal path to make sure






 What do you mean by "ground down?"


----------



## NeilR

There is a small round pin that sticks out parallel to the switch shaft. It is at 3 o'clock on the image you linked. That is an alignment pin, intended to be spotted into a hole in the panel. It ensures that the pot won't rotate in the panel and the index mark on the knob won't drift. When board mounted, it doesn't add much value except that it prevents the device from being mounted/oriented incorrectly. Since we do not have alignment holes in the panel, I assume people are grinding them down, just like most people do with Alps RK27 pots, which have the same type of alignment pin.

 I don't think you will find that pin on the schematic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_just like on Meier's website; I double checked the signal path to make sure






 What do you mean by "ground down?"_


----------



## NeilR

Never mind, the instructions explicitely state that the alignment pins are to be removed.

 Regards,
 Neil

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_There is a small round pin that sticks out parallel to the switch shaft. It is at 3 o'clock on the image you linked. That is an alignment pin, intended to be spotted into a hole in the panel. It ensures that the pot won't rotate in the panel and the index mark on the knob won't drift. When board mounted, it doesn't add much value except that it prevents the device from being mounted/oriented incorrectly. Since we do not have alignment holes in the panel, I assume people are grinding them down, just like most people do with Alps RK27 pots, which have the same type of alignment pin.

 I don't think you will find that pin on the schematic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## Teerawit

oh....ground as in grind.....that makes more sense. I thought you were referring to ground as in voltage = 0 V.


----------



## Ballooshi

Teerawit,

 Did you get your MetCal yet? Ready to start your builds?


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_Teerawit,

 Did you get your MetCal yet? Ready to start your builds?_

 

Ya I got the MX-500 station. I've used it alittle so far (PINT and CROSS-1), but I need to order more parts before they are finished.


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Teerawit* 
_Ya I got the MX-500 station. I've used it alittle so far (PINT and CROSS-1), but I need to order more parts before they are finished. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nice rig! ($$$)

 I just got a Hakko 937, almost ready to start my builds.

 Are you also going to build the HA-1?


----------



## Teerawit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ballooshi* 
_
 Are you also going to build the HA-1?_

 

Yeah in a few months


----------



## sphinxllama

OK got i#t


----------



## Ballooshi

Does this help?


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_OK got i#t_

 

Glad you got it... you edited your post before I had the chance to answer your questions!

 Perhaps the new pic I posted will clear up any questions anyone else might have.

 Hopefully everything works OK... have you listened to it yet?


----------



## sphinxllama

@Ballooshi

 Thanks a lot for your tireles help till the end.

 It runs now for only 20 minutes but my impression is that it works and it works really great. All the work was worth it!!! I am really impresed by this little box how it can rock my headphone.









 (I think this is the best explanation!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 I can post some pics later if you want me too.

 And thanks again!!!


----------



## NeilR

Just out of curiosity, anyone know or care to guess why a few resistors are mounted on the switch side (the front)? I don't see any physical obstruction preventing all of the resistors from being mounted on the rear of the board.


----------



## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_@Ballooshi

 Thanks a lot for your tireles help till the end.

 It runs now for only 20 minutes but my impression is that it works and it works really great. All the work was worth it!!! I am really impresed by this little box how it can rock my headphone.










 (I think this is the best explanation!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )

 I can post some pics later if you want me too.

 And thanks again!!!_

 

Are you using a dedicated headphone amplifier? If you aren't, I would suggest that for your next project. Then you'll really experience "rocking" your headphones, more so than the Cross-1, which is just a passive device. Let me change that... an IMPRESSIVE passive device.

 The thing I like best about the Cross-1 is that it sounds more natural to me, like listening to speakers but with much more clarity and detail because of the phones. My ears and brain don't get as "tired" listening through phones with the Cross-1.

 But if you aren't listening to your phones with a dedicated headphone amp, do yourself a favor and build one next. It will make a huge difference.

 Enjoy!


----------



## mb3k

Ahh I'm so jealous, a lot of parts from Mouser are on backorder till around June.


----------



## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mb3k* 
_Ahh I'm so jealous, a lot of parts from Mouser are on backorder till around June._

 

What parts are you having trouble with? I think you can put a complete BOM together, with a little subbing.


----------



## sphinxllama

As an HeadAmp I use a modded B-Tech 928 and headphones are DT880 from Beyerdynamics. To me its a real good combo! 

 Maybe my next project is a better headamp but I have to search for a good an cheap one!

 OK I put them on again


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## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_As an HeadAmp I use a modded B-Tech 928 and headphones are DT880 from Beyerdynamics. To me its a real good combo! 

 Maybe my next project is a better headamp but I have to search for a good an cheap one!

 OK I put them on again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That combo might be real nice, depending on the mods (caps, op-amp, resistors) made to the amp. Did you do the mods yourself?

 PinkFloyd modded a BTech 928 with impressive results, as noted here on his rock-grotto website.

 I have a pair of Beyer DT-990s, the old 600 ohm version which I really like. Haven't listened to the DT-880s, but have read nothing but great things about them. My only amp thus far is a CMoy... it drives my phones OK, but could be better. I can't wait to finish my Corda HA-1 (thanks again Jan!), which should do a better job than the CMoy.


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## sphinxllama

@Ballooshi:

 Hi,

 yes I used the page you posted for the mod and a german forum! Used Panasonic FCs and 1%Resistors.

 I think I have to change the cables from my cross-1. Used much to thick cables with 1mm diameter audio cable. Now there are to many wires and I cant close the box! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 How thick are your cables?

 P.S. I have to correct my first impression. After a couple of listening-hours I came to the conclusen that the diffenents is not that big when switching between the ON-Crossfeed and OFF-Crossfeed but while listening for a few minutes in the ON-Mode the differents is that the sound doesnt come directly from one side, it comes from the front... easy listening. But I can^t tell the difference directly after switching from one mode in the other.

 What is your impression???


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## Ballooshi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sphinxllama* 
_@Ballooshi:

 Hi,

 yes I used the page you posted for the mod and a german forum! Used Panasonic FCs and 1%Resistors.

 I think I have to change the cables from my cross-1. Used much to thick cables with 1mm diameter audio cable. Now there are to many wires and I cant close the box! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 How thick are your cables?

 P.S. I have to correct my first impression. After a couple of listening-hours I came to the conclusen that the diffenents is not that big when switching between the ON-Crossfeed and OFF-Crossfeed but while listening for a few minutes in the ON-Mode the differents is that the sound doesnt come directly from one side, it comes from the front... easy listening. But I can^t tell the difference directly after switching from one mode in the other.

 What is your impression???_

 

I think I used 22 gauge hookup wire, which still takes up quite a bit of space in the enclosure.

 You should usually always be able to detect some difference between regular (off) and crossfeed (on). Depending on the source recording, the crossfeed effect can be very slight, or very significant. On some (mostly older) recordings with a lot of channel separation, the difference is significant. On others, you hardly notice any difference at all.

 I will say though, no matter what I'm listening to, I find that the crossfeed makes it easier on the ears / brain when I listen with phones.


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## Sovkiller

Any idea when these stupid lorlin shorting switches for the center position will be available from Mouser or any other source, we aresick of waiting, oh man!!!!???


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## mb3k

My latest estimate from Mouser was:
  Code:


```
[left]10WA347 RTRY 4POL 3POS PCB 2 Lorlin Nylon Rotary Switches This product is expected to be in stock by 05-26-06.[/left]
```

But it's been well past May 26th. If I'm not mistaken, the crossfeed should still work without the middle switch


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## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mb3k* 
_My latest estimate from Mouser was:
  Code:



		Code:
	

[left]10WA347 RTRY 4POL 3POS PCB 2 Lorlin Nylon Rotary Switches This product is expected to be in stock by 05-26-06.[/left]


But it's been well past May 26th. If I'm not mistaken, the crossfeed should still work without the middle switch_

 


 That's what I got in an email a few weeks prior to that date. Now they don't even show a date...


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mb3k* 
_But it's been well past May 26th. If I'm not mistaken, the crossfeed should still work without the middle switch_

 

The middle switch will select the level of crossfeed you need, I don't think that it will work without it, unless you place some jumpers on these tabs...


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## [AK]Zip

If anyone wants the case, panels, and board I am willing to sell mine at what it cost me. I would put this in the FS forum, but I want to offer it to someone who didn't get the boards first. PM me if you want it.

 -Alex-


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## mb3k

Great news from the local electronics shop... they carry the 3pos 4pole Lorlin switch!
 They have a few in stock right now, so if anyone desparately needs one PM me.

 Edit: I didn't stop to see if there was both the non-shorting and shorting version, but I think there was

 Edit #2: Also not sure if there's more PCB mount type switches.


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## lord.hypnos

I called Mouser a couple of days ago to cancel my order for the backorder switches and go with the others, but the rep told me that they will ship out tomorrow. She even confirmed that they were on the manifest of a shipment that left the distributer June 9th. I guess that I should see them sometime in the middle of next week.


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## NeilR

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lord.hypnos* 
_I called Mouser a couple of days ago to cancel my order for the backorder switches and go with the others, but the rep told me that they will ship out tomorrow. She even confirmed that they were on the manifest of a shipment that left the distributer June 9th. I guess that I should see them sometime in the middle of next week._

 

Thanks for the update, Matt. I have 2 switches held hostage too.

 Now we have to work on the Amveco transformer problem


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilR* 
_Thanks for the update, Matt. I have 2 switches held hostage too._

 

Neil, you cna use them, which confidence, I received the Cross-1s today, top notch work, congrats man!!! and very nice, I absolutelly love them...but just a few remarks, just to add some more info to the thread...

 The cases ordered by Neil are exactly the same kind as the original ones, same shape, size and material, evne I feel these a little heavier, more robust IMO....so here we hit the nail in the head, directly in the head!!!!!!

 Now the switches Lorlin used by Meier are not the same kind as the ones on the list, and the ones we are ordering and using. The original ones has a round shaft, and these ones have a "D" shaped shaft, and that could be an inconveninece with certain kind of knobs, if the screw that secures them goes over the cut, or in the corners...you iwll never be able ot put them straight, but this is not our case at all...

 The switches as you cna see in my prior pics are all black, these are grey. Also the nuts are not the same neither, he uses some chromed round nuts, with an slot to secure them, and these from "our switches" are regular hexagonal nuts and made of cooper or similar material but not chromed, and the size is also different, these of "our" switches are will not fit the original ones, and vice, so it seems that he kept a few secrets regarding some of the parts...but anyway we have to be very happy which what we received from him, and from his generosity...top notch product, and at cost....

 Now abut the feel, exactly the same, the clicks are as smooth as the ones he uses, and same smooth steps...how they work??? Great!!! no clicks, no pops, no nothing, they are completelly silent, and dead quiet while rotating the switches, any of them at any time....and that was my major concern honestly...I compared both today, and there was abslutelly no difference that I could point out.....


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## NeilR

Thanks, Sovkiller!

 To make things a bit clearer, Sovkiller's units were built with two shorting switches and one non-shorting switch... 

 The 2 pole 6 pos (outer) switches are 10WA345

 The 3 pole 4 pos (cneter) switch is 10WA147

 As I posted previously, I found no difference in color, look or feel, nor any issues with any of these switches with popping or clicking.

 As Matt indicates this will all be pretty much irrelevent is a couple days.


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## mb3k

I've cancelled my order for the shorting Lorlin's and went ahead and ordered the non-shorting like the official Cross-1. The package is waiting for me at the post office - can't wait to pick them up tomorrow!
  Code:


```
[left]Type ID Qty Mouser# Lorlin 2-pole, 6 position switchS1, S34~CK1045Non-Shorting Lorlin 4-pole, 3 position switchS22~CK1047Non-Shorting[/left]
```

^ Those are the non-shorting part numbers for Mouser.


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## NeilR

This thread's been quiet for 3 months; everybody get their builds done? No problems? Well, after building two for another Head-FIer that went perfect, I almost screwed the pooch on my 3rd one, which was for me....

 Ever since I started to study the board, I was very concerned about all the soldered pads that would be hidden underneath the 3 rotary switches. I was very focused on cold soldered joints because I knew that if the joint were the bottom of a tombstoned resistor beneath the switch (of which there are about 30 of them!) it might be almost impossible to resolder or replace properly without some ugly kludge. I knew it would take a lot of testing just to ascertain that something was wrong with one of the 15 different switch settings.

 After reflowing all my joints last night in preparation for the switch mounting operation (no cold soldered joints on these babies!) , I soldered the jack wires, soldered down the switchs, and wired the jacks. My left channel was dead, but only when the crossfeed was activated. In bypass it worked fine. After a little scoping and DMMing I figured out that the left output was a dead short to ground. I was so focused on cold soldered joints (unwanted opens), I never focused on the possibility of a solder bridge under the switches but apparently that is what I had.

 The bridge wasn't visible. For that matter I had to do some thinking and investigating to rule out an internally shorted part but I couldn't find a part that would give me the readings I got. I finally decided it was most likely a bridge from the common pole of either S2 or S3 to a nearby pad. Since it was all buried under the switch it was more a process of elimination than any particular inspiration; just a hunch. I started on S3 because that had the closest set of pads leading to ground. I sucked solder until I bled the pads as dry as I could, and still a dead short. I gave up and moved to S2, sucking that one suspected pad dry. No dice. I went back to S3 for a while, then revistied S2. After a couple more tries, the short cleared. I was REALLY lucky because the next step would have been to break the two switches up into little pieces and remove all the stubble to find the short. Not having spare switches, I wasn't looking forward to this. Plus, it was about 5am at that point but I was stubborn and wanted some resolution before the night was over. Hehe.

 The offender was S2's common pole in the left channel on the switch portion at the top of the schematic (there are two independent S2 3 pole switches in each channel). That somehow bridged to the nearby ground via, which is a pretty fair distance away and I would have bet good money it was too far away, but I was out of options other than a hammer.

 The moral of the story here is to be very careful while soldering the switches; limit the amount of solder you use. Those are very large pads and there is a lot of air around the switch tabs. I think I flowed too much solder down that hole, building up a column of solder on the solder tab between the switch's back side and the board, and something splashed to the via pad. 

 I usually do not like to leave pads partially filled. I like a nice round solid flow of solder. In the case of the switches I don't think that is a good idea in retrospect because you have to flow too much solder in the hole to do that, building up too much solder on the switch tab beneath the solder side of the board. 

 I was actually lucky because I had an easy diagnostic- a dead short. There are a lot of very close pads adjacent to the 44 (!) switch pads, all hidden from view. Most shorts would not be obvious, it might be an insidious "modification" of the circuit that many might not even notice unless they have used crossfeeds and heard a fully working Meir for comparison.

 P.S. after initially giving up on that board, I finalized my 2nd board, which fired up perfectly the first time. So in my defense, I'm 3 for 4 for instant on start-ups 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Hope this helps....

 Neil


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