# Is it time to boycott cable companies?



## TheMarchingMule

99% of them, at least. I've been thinking about this movement for awhile, but over the past couple of months, it's been even more unsettling, in both terms of pricing and the revelations that show what's _inside_ the cables.

 Perhaps DIY Head-Fi members can set up small businesses; I saw that they can build great quality cables and iPod docks as well. Of course, I know most, if not all, rather not get into the business side of things, and I don't blame them. I'm simply speaking my mind right now; throwing out possibilities and ideas.

 But I feel that for awhile none of us should "upgrade" our cables, and just simply go to Radio Shack for our cable needs. Remember the results from that DBT test that compared silver to copper to a Radio Shack cable?

 So yes, thanks for hearing me out. What say you?


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## terrymx

i agree. and to every next repliers, please refrain from personal attacks.

 actaully i have been really busy and lazy lately that i rather use a cheap cable than to spend 2-3hours making cables.


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## bigshot

I would rather boycott stereo equipment salesmen posing as consumers to act as shills for overpriced lead shot filled garden hoses in internet chat forums.

 See ya
 Steve


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## jgonino

I agree, start the Rebellion! 

 I think we should all buy our cables from Blue Jeans Cable.


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## Assorted

Well, you do still have that, premium ALO iMod cable (dock?). Perhaps you could sell it, and support a private DIY'er. 

 I'm just kidding. I can't speak of the $10K cable manufacturers, but recable/cable companies like APureSound has always made excellent products and services for me, and I think their reasonable prices are well worth paying for. I would not support this boycott.


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## jgonino

I think he means a boycott of other companies. I also personally think ALO and Apuresound deserve out business.


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## Assorted

Okay... reading some of the comments made by that [...] in question in that huge thread made me change my mind. [...] has clearly shown some serious attitude. That is not very cool.


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## jgonino

I think the comments I made were pretty clear-cut. So .... had to resort to childish words.


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## fraseyboy

Let's boycott cereal companies too for selling cereal at like 10 times what it costs to make it!

 But yeah, I do half agree. I think we should support those DIY people on head-fi that make cables themselves.


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## jgonino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's boycott cereal companies too for selling cereal at like 10 times what it costs to make it!

 But yeah, I do half agree. I think we should support those DIY people on head-fi that make cables themselves._

 

But there are so many other factors. Inflation is one. Profit is another. A cereal company is not profit due to the increased cost for their R and D, marketing and employees. The cable companies are making a killing on these cables; and sometimes they are not any better than the ones you can get for half the price.


 Oh, and Highflyin9 makes some really nice cables. Have you seend his power cables, with the ground wrapped around the main cable? They are amazing looking.


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## Assorted

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's boycott cereal companies too for selling cereal at like 10 times what it costs to make it!_

 

Yeah. Sarcasm noted, and why you said that is perfectly understandable! You're a testament to how good their premium cables can sound!

 And let us all remember... "they're _like_ raisin bran, but they're just cereal bran with raisins in it" (darn, can't remember the exact words


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## jgonino

Oh, and the cereal company thing? I was merely responding to show the "What if?...." answer


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## colonelkernel8

Yeah, way ahead of you guys on this one...

 With the obvious quality defects, I cannot believe that people still claim that they improve the sound? How can they? They are worse than just about any cable you can buy. This is of course delving into the placebo problem (oooo, pretty cable, brand name, nifty logo, it must be good!). Another problem that needs dealing with.


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## Uncle Erik

Boycott? I've never bought from them in the first place.

 I prefer to DIY my own garden hose.


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## hughwi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I prefer to DIY my own garden hose._

 

Classic, but so true, the only way you can really know what you are getting is to either be there when it is made, make it yourself or hack an existing one up!

 On a slightly different note, for those of you in the UK looking for a reasonably priced DIY'er, look up mark grant, he makes high quality gear at prices that are not $150 for garden hose...


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## slwiser

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jgonino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think he means a boycott of other companies. I also personally think ALO and Apuresound deserve out business._

 

Do you mean "our business" or "out of business" with your note above? Freudian slip maybe?

 I am keeping my cables....I know what I hear. I don't consider myself as having the most resolving or demanding ear but when I do hear something I can appreciate the differences.


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## SoundGoon

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_99% of them, at least. I've been thinking about this movement for awhile, but over the past couple of months, it's been even more unsettling, in both terms of pricing and the revelations that show what's inside the cables.

 Perhaps DIY Head-Fi members can set up small businesses; I saw that they can build great quality cables and iPod docks as well. Of course, I know most, if not all, rather not get into the business side of things, and I don't blame them. I'm simply speaking my mind right now; throwing out possibilities and ideas.

 But I feel that for awhile none of us should "upgrade" our cables, and just simply go to Radio Shack for our cable needs. Remember the results from that DBT test that compared silver to copper to a Radio Shack cable?

 So yes, thanks for hearing me out. What say you?_

 

Am I to suppose that this is in response to a certain cable and a certain cat?


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## FallenAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hughwi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Classic, but so true, the only way you can really know what you are getting is to either be there when it is made, make it yourself or hack an existing one up!

 On a slightly different note, for those of you in the UK looking for a reasonably priced DIY'er, look up mark grant, he makes high quality gear at prices that are not $150 for garden hose..._

 

It could be garden hose, or it could be any other synthetic rubber hose or high pressure air hose which are actually used by a lot of power cables to protect the internal wires. What else would you have protecting them? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 About the DBT, lots of people can't IDENTIFY what a cable is, but they can PREFER one to another and that's what makes DBT a completely faulty way of testing thing. Sure, I don't know if I'm listening to a certain equipment, but I can tell the difference between them. I'm pretty sure I can't identify which I'm listening to by changing it a few times, but I can say if it was changed or not which means there was a difference. It's all about what you prefer, not if whether you can identify what it is.


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## gz76

Am glad I found this thread... the other one had slowed down and I was getting bored!

 Anyway, back to the idea proposed by TheMarchingMule: I could boycott the cable companies, but it's a bit difficult when I already DIY my own analogue and digit IC's! I guess an alternative would be to offer quality DIY cables at realistic prices, but yeah, I wouldn't want to make a business of it!

 Edit: I haven't done power cables yet... but then they've never been on my radar as an upgrade my system needs. My cable expectations are realistic, and I spend my money accordingly.


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## webbie64

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Assorted* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't speak of the $10K cable manufacturers, but recable/cable companies like APureSound has always made excellent products and services for me, and I think their reasonable prices are well worth paying for. I would not support this boycott._

 

X2. There are both good quality and poorer quality DIYers and manufacturers out there for practically *everything* audio.

 There is an onus on the purchaser to make their own decision based on their own preferences (including SQ preferences) and their own budget. And, to me at least, much depends on overall equipment synergy - I will run my Apuresound ICs on my SS amps but not on my tube amps, where I choose silver ICs (Moon Audio and Home Grown Audio).

 But I can see where the suggestion is coming from - I've listened to a fair range of portable mini-2-minis and I think with that level of equipment the differences, although noticeable, are not nearly so different (yet the prices can be quite different 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


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## Dorito123

Could we form a list of sellers who we feel are selling good product? So as to avoid the garden hose salesmen in the future.


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## Dan Millheim

Man, I hate cats, look at all the trouble they cause.


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## n_maher

I prefer Nate Jeans Cables.


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## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dorito123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could we form a list of sellers who we feel are selling good product? So as to avoid the garden hose salesmen in the future._

 

Blue Jeans Cable and Fitz's cables are the two I have experienced, both have amazing build quality. Fitz's also look very, *very* cool/nice.


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## Dorito123

Thank you Overlord.


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## markl

I love it.

 [size=medium]*"Let's boycott all snake-oil cable companies and their fake products that don't make a difference."**[/size]














 *Erm, except for ALO, Blue Jeans Cable and other brands I can afford. Those aren't snake-oil, they work. But all *other* cables, now _those_ are bunk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes, let's call on the DIY community to start their own cable businesses and stop selling snake-oil. (Except that's how all these other cable companies you are complaining about started-- a guy in his basement with some ideas and some cables).

 Did you ever see the South Park where they were protesting Wal-Mart for its evil ways, so they blow it up? And the whole town starts buying its stuff from the local mom & pop drugstore that was in danger of going out of business. Then we have a flash-forward where the small mom & pop store becomes the huge mega-chain and they have to blow it up all over again. LOL.


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## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love it.

 [size=medium]*"Let's boycott all snake-oil cable companies and their fake products that don't make a difference."**[/size]














 *Erm, except for ALO, Blue Jeans Cable and other brands I can afford. Those aren't snake-oil, they work. But all *other* cables, now those are bunk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes, let's call on the DIY community to start their own cable businesses and stop selling snake-oil. (Except that's how all these other cable companies you are complaining about started-- aguy in his basement with some ideas and some cables).

 Did you ever see the South Park where they were protesting Wal-Mart for its evil ways, so they blow it up? And the whole town starts buying its stuff from the local mom & pop drugstore that was in danger of going out of business. Then we have a flash-forward where the small mom & pop store becomes the huge mega-chain and they have to blow it up all over again. LOL._

 

I personally think ALO, Qables, and other audiophile cable companies have complete ******** products that are marked way up.

 Since when have BJC or Monoprice advertised themselves as audiophile cable companies, or charged ostentatious prices for solid gold/spc/whatever cables?

 And what in the hell does your SP example have to do with anything here? BJC and Monprice are large companies, and yet they don't spit out ******** products.


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## markl

Hurts gettin' nailed on your own BS don't it, Mr. Xenu?


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## furball

I bet that must have been your reaction when you saw that cat tear up that nice Virtual Dynamics cable...and your "powercord" review...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hurts gettin' nailed on your own BS don't it, Mr. Xenu? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


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## vcoheda

i agree with markl.

 if you really want to boycott cables, then never buy any - i mean any. saying i'm only going to buy this or that brand b/c they are well made and "affordable" are both relative terms. if you really mean what you say, just use stock powercords that come with most/some components and red and white RCAs. if they really do not make *any* difference than those should be more than adequate.


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## markl

Didn't review a Power 3, reviewed products way up the line with different build. (If you have $1500 to spend taking a Nite apart, I invite you to do so.)

 I will comment now: Power 3 performs better than Iron Lung or Volex (two stock, factory made, off-the-shelf cables with stock wire inside that wouldn't impress you either with their build), better than others I reviewed, would have shown up near the middle of the pile.

 Until you've done all the listening I have, your comment is just ignorance. No sting at all.


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## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hurts gettin' nailed on your own BS don't it, Mr. Xenu? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ummm, what bs?


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## ph0rk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did you ever see the South Park where they were protesting Wal-Mart for its evil ways, so they blow it up? And the whole town starts buying its stuff from the local mom & pop drugstore that was in danger of going out of business. Then we have a flash-forward where the small mom & pop store becomes the huge mega-chain and they have to blow it up all over again. LOL._

 

They did not, however, argue that wal-mart was _good_. Rather wal-mart sucks, and on top of that people are generally stupid.


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## 883dave

I think we should boycott the boycotters, until they can provide use with scientific evidence as to why we shouldn't


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## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think we should boycott the boycotters, until they can provide use with scientific evidence as to why we shouldn't_

 

That argument goes both ways...Provide me with some empirical evidence as to any audiophile cable that performs better than a low-cost cable, such as one from Radio Shack, Monoprice, Blue Jeans Cable, etc.


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## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That argument goes both ways...Provide me with some empirical evidence as to any audiophile cable that performs better than a low-cost cable, such as one from Radio Shack, Monoprice, Blue Jeans Cable, etc._

 

Quote:
 Originally Posted by OverlordXenu 
 Yes, because Fitz, Monoprice, and Blue Jeans Cable all claim to make cables that sound so much better than anything else and charge $30,000 for them. Those companies and VD are so similar, aren't they? 

 Quote:
 Originally Posted by OverlordXenu 
 Let's see here, BJC et al. aren't trying to "swindle" anyone (they don't make false claims), and I do not work for them, whereas Acoustic Chef works for VD, and VD does make false claims.

 See the difference? 

 I don't have a "sound so much better" meter, if you could make arrangement for me to borrow the one that you refer to in the above quote, I will give it a shot


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## elrod-tom

Look, this seems a circular argument to me. Those who don't believe cables make a difference are, I expect, already boycotting cable companies. Those who do believe are not. It's a circular argument with no resolution point.

 Which brings me to my reminder to please keep things civil when you discuss these issues. Thanks...


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## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quote:
 Originally Posted by OverlordXenu 
 Yes, because Fitz, Monoprice, and Blue Jeans Cable all claim to make cables that sound so much better than anything else and charge $30,000 for them. Those companies and VD are so similar, aren't they? 

 Quote:
 Originally Posted by OverlordXenu 
 Let's see here, BJC et al. aren't trying to "swindle" anyone (they don't make false claims), and I do not work for them, whereas Acoustic Chef works for VD, and VD does make false claims.

 See the difference? 

 I don't have a "sound so much better" meter, if you could make arrangement for me to borrow the one that you refer to in the above quote, I will give it a shot_

 

You don't visit these cable boards much do you? Overlord is a cable skeptic one of the biggest. he was being sarcastic when he said they claim to have the best and are all $30k.


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## Uncle Erik

The cable proponents are missing the point. Telling people there is a vast difference in a $150 cable that is just $0.24/foot Home Depot wire inside a garden hose looks and smells like a scam. Instead of listening to you go on about the "sound" will not convince anyone. They are instead wondering if you have any credibility at all. It is hard to imagine why anyone would defend ordinary house wire in a hose, short of a direct financial interest.

 The only free gear I've received were two PCBs, face and endplates from Dr. Meier for the Cross-I when he did the giveaway a couple years ago. I participated in the group buy for cases and built them myself. Other than that, I have not received cash, products, discounts, special treatment, or any form of compensation from any manufacturer or member of the trade. I would not hesitate to swear that under oath.

 Who else is willing to come clean about financial and other compensation received? I'll take people at their word, but it's time to call out the elephant in the room. People come here for honest advice from enthusiasts. They do not want, nor do they expect, marketing hiding behind our words. It is not fair and it is not right.


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## jgonino

I have never received any compensation, monetary or otherwise, from a MOT. The only free thing I have ever gotten is the original carrying bag for my Headfive from a member who realized he had forgot to include in in the original purchase.


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## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ It is hard to imagine why anyone would defend ordinary house wire in a hose, short of a direct financial interest._

 

why don't you just say which people you are referring to. obviously, you have some in mind.


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## rodentmacbeastie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_99% of them, at least. I've been thinking about this movement for awhile, but over the past couple of months, it's been even more unsettling, in both terms of pricing and the revelations that show what's inside the cables.

 Perhaps DIY Head-Fi members can set up small businesses; I saw that they can build great quality cables and iPod docks as well. Of course, I know most, if not all, rather not get into the business side of things, and I don't blame them. I'm simply speaking my mind right now; throwing out possibilities and ideas.

 But I feel that for awhile none of us should "upgrade" our cables, and just simply go to Radio Shack for our cable needs. Remember the results from that DBT test that compared silver to copper to a Radio Shack cable?

 So yes, thanks for hearing me out. What say you?_

 


 You are right on my page! I am in the middle of a career change. Fell in love in Asia and am only back in Canada for less than a year. Do to the lower overhead of doing business in Thailand I am seriously considering starting my own boutique audio brand of components, speakers, and cables for poor and frugal people. Of course, skipping the middleman thanks to the interweb thingy would ensure quality component made with boutique parts where needed at prices that are reasonable. Thanks to the box thing internet that somehow teleports my thoughts and products to the consumer(LOL) I would still make the same profit as if I sold to a middle man and he gouged you! I am, at the moment, trying to convince an EE friend and a few computer geek friends of mine to move over with me to start this and a couple other companies. I won't even go into why it is better living there than in Canada, but it is! 

 A line of simplified tube preamps, class D amps, open baffle, dynamic, TR speakers, a DAC, and of course, headamps would mean not too many choices, but good ones at good prices! If Channel Islands can box up a couple of Hypex UcD amp modules and sell them for $2300, why can't I do it for a lot less and still sleep at night? Most $500 to $2000 speakers use crap drivers, so why not use good ones and charge the same. Maybe I can talk to some DIY PCB makers and use their already existing great designs for DACs and preamps, build them and case them beautifully and only for a reasonable mark up. 

 I was considering this lightly until I saw this and flew off! You may have seen my post for my planned BOX'O'GOODIES. 


nova physics memory player


 This thing is a $15000 version that only does one thing better(I foresee it this way) and does a lot less in every other department! Keeping it small and personal and without greed should make for a loyal following, just the way I like to do business. With my background in high end lacquer on wood finishing things would look great!


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## manaox2

For what its worth, StevenKelby = my hookup. He's amazing with the cables and iMod accessories.


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## ecclesand

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who else is willing to come clean about financial and other compensation received? I'll take people at their word, but it's time to call out the elephant in the room. People come here for honest advice from enthusiasts. They do not want, nor do they expect, marketing hiding behind our words. It is not fair and it is not right._

 

I haven't received squat from any MOT (or anyone period) that I didn't have to pay full price for. That being said, I am open to bribes.


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## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You don't visit these cable boards much do you? Overlord is a cable skeptic one of the biggest. he was being sarcastic when he said they claim to have the best and are all $30k._

 

Thanks, without you pointing this out I would have never known:

 Sorry if my return point didn't seem sarcastic enough, will try to do better next time


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## yotacowboy

Boycott away!

 Better yet, why doesn't someone take matters further and petition all the moderators to make a formal statement on behalf of Head-Fi.org boycotting all tweaks, mods, footers, cables, as well as any sponsor support of the forums by companies who either sell any of that junk, or use any of that junk!

 But why stop there??? I've heard that amplifiers and digital sources all sound the same (and one could infer that they, too, are ALL hogwash, snake-oil, and scams) so it follows that we should boycott them too! Sounds like a good plan, who's with me?

 Or should people just boycott Head-fi? They're guilty by association! Boycott, Boycott, Boycott!!!


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## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Boycott away!

 Better yet, why doesn't someone take matters further and petition all the moderators to make a formal statement on behalf of Head-Fi.org boycotting all tweaks, mods, footers, cables, as well as any sponsor support of the forums by companies who either sell any of that junk, or use any of that junk!

 But why stop there??? I've heard that amplifiers and digital sources all sound the same (and one could infer that they, too, are ALL hogwash, snake-oil, and scams) so it follows that we should boycott them too! Sounds like a good plan, who's with me?

 Or should people just boycott Head-fi? They're guilty by association! Boycott, Boycott, Boycott!!!_

 

you should add most of the digital source in the boycott since they all measure the same anyway (Actually some $6k esoteric gear measured not much better than some $200 DVD player...yikes..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 For that I bet most of RSA, most of WA, most of Singlepower, and most of HR would measure considerably worse or no better than PPA (DIY project), damn..snake-oil companies..let's boycott them too!


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## The Monkey

Does anyone know how big the audio cable industry is in terms of $$.


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## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love it.

 [size=medium]*"Let's boycott all snake-oil cable companies and their fake products that don't make a difference."**[/size]

 .....
 *Erm, except for ALO, Blue Jeans Cable and other brands I can afford. Those aren't snake-oil, they work. But all *other* cables, now those are bunk. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Except Blue Jeans doesn't make claims worthy of the next Nobel prize. Their marketing is no-nonsense and whether you can claim to hear it or not, the stated differences between their cables is scientifically sound (e.g. low capacitance interconnects).

 --Chris


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## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Boycott away!

 Better yet, why doesn't someone take matters further and petition all the moderators to make a formal statement on behalf of Head-Fi.org boycotting all tweaks, mods, footers, cables, as well as any sponsor support of the forums by companies who either sell any of that junk, or use any of that junk!

 But why stop there??? I've heard that amplifiers and digital sources all sound the same (and one could infer that they, too, are ALL hogwash, snake-oil, and scams) so it follows that we should boycott them too! Sounds like a good plan, who's with me?

 Or should people just boycott Head-fi? They're guilty by association! Boycott, Boycott, Boycott!!!_

 

Well, the last time anyone has double-blind tested amplifiers, people couldn't tell the difference...But that test was in the `80s, and it didn't really use a lot of amps or a broad range of amps, so I don't really like referencing it...

 Someone really needs to do a major DBT of amps and sources. It's really needed in this hobby.

 And as for the other tweaks/footers/whatever, I will believe them when people can hear differences in DBT (and say that the "stuff" with the tweaks sounded better) and/or some scientific basis is found that supports them, because as you know, there are no known theories that support using VD cables makes your system sound better, that reducing vibration makes your system sound better, etc.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quote:
 Originally Posted by OverlordXenu 
 Yes, because Fitz, Monoprice, and Blue Jeans Cable all claim to make cables that sound so much better than anything else and charge $30,000 for them. Those companies and VD are so similar, aren't they? 

 Quote:
 Originally Posted by OverlordXenu 
 Let's see here, BJC et al. aren't trying to "swindle" anyone (they don't make false claims), and I do not work for them, whereas Acoustic Chef works for VD, and VD does make false claims.

 See the difference? 

 I don't have a "sound so much better" meter, if you could make arrangement for me to borrow the one that you refer to in the above quote, I will give it a shot_

 

A shot at what? And, I can't really do that, anyway. Fitz's cable is soldered to my headphones (the stock cable was just...disgusting, physically), I use a Monoprice HDMI cable for my TV, I use two coaxial cables from BJC to connect my PC and my cable box to my DAC, and then I use a BJC RCA interconnect between my DAC and my amp. I don't really feel like being without my home system for a week or so, and I hate going to Radio Shack.

 And I don't really see what you're getting at with those two quotes, BJC et al. doesn't make rediculous claims like VD, and I don't think they have insane markups like VD has ($15-20 in parts for their Power 3, which I think retails for like $200), and BJC tells me what I am getting with my cables (look at their site, they specify canare connectors and whatever cable you choose, and you actually get what you order, whereas VD says they use LiniPure connectors or something, but you just get some cheap off-the-shelf IEC connectors, and whatnot).

 I don't really see what you're getting at.

 Edit:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gritzcolin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You don't visit these cable boards much do you? Overlord is a cable skeptic one of the biggest. he was being sarcastic when he said they claim to have the best and are all $30k._

 

Oh, I see. I didn't realize he had missed my sarcasm.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is hard to imagine why anyone would defend ordinary house wire in a hose, short of a direct financial interest._

 

It could also be a mental investment. Denial, etc.


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## gritzcolin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, without you pointing this out I would have never known:

 Sorry if my return point didn't seem sarcastic enough, will try to do better next time_

 

Yeah I'd say it needs a little work.


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## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FallenAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_About the DBT, lots of people can't IDENTIFY what a cable is, but they can PREFER one to another and that's what makes DBT a completely faulty way of testing thing. Sure, I don't know if I'm listening to a certain equipment, but I can tell the difference between them. I'm pretty sure I can't identify which I'm listening to by changing it a few times, but I can say if it was changed or not which means there was a difference. It's all about what you prefer, not if whether you can identify what it is._

 

Saying which cable you prefer is meaningless until you've established that you can tell a difference between them. Ideally you'd do a DBT to see if there was a difference, followed by a blind AB to see if one is preferred over the other, and if so whether the pricier/prettier one is the one that's preferred.



 As for this boycott business, I'm generally in support of it. The prices are only this high because people are willing to pay them. Such a boycott that would force some reason into the marketting, or at least a drop in price, would benefit everyone. It would especially benefit the unfortunate people who feel that cables can make a significant enough difference to be worth investing in, since they'd be the ones that would benefit from the price drop.


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## manaox2

Can someone show me the link to where they took apart the Power 3 and noticed that it is only $15-20 of materials? I mean, its huge. I'm kind of scared when I see it. I would love to see what was inside.

 Found it!

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/my...er-3-a-293165/

 Thanks


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## Chu

I'm sure it's already been said, but the word "boycott" here is extremely odd. If you don't believe in their products, you probably are already not buying them. If you believe in their products, then there is no reason to boycott.


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manaox2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can someone show me the link to where they took apart the Power 3 and noticed that it is only $15-20 of materials? I mean, its huge. I'm kind of scared when I see it. I would love to see what was inside.

 Found it!

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/my...er-3-a-293165/

 Thanks_

 

Comparing that thread to the original when Jude took his apart is quite frightening. The amount of vitrol in this subforum is unreal.


----------



## vcoheda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure it's already been said, but the word "boycott" here is extremely odd._

 

i doubt the word was used with much thought to its meaning.


----------



## manaox2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Comparing that thread to the original when Jude took his apart is quite frightening. The amount of vitrol in this subforum is unreal._

 

I bet what you are seeing is the difference between when a cable costs $35 then and when it costs $300 now as the Power 3 has recently...


----------



## brainsalad

I don't think boycotting makes any difference. Those that don't believe make their own or buy from people like Blue Jeans anyway. The people that believe will continue to support the expensive cables and will probably never be swayed to not support them. 

 Very rarely do people switch sides.


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure it's already been said, but the word "boycott" here is extremely odd. If you don't believe in their products, you probably are already not buying them. If you believe in their products, then there is no reason to boycott._

 

As I explained in my post, boycotting them for their obscene prices and ridiculous marketing tactics benefits everyone, especially true believers. It can only force down prices and make the marketing more honest.


----------



## Jaw007

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As I explained in my post, boycotting them for their obscene prices and ridiculous marketing tactics benefits everyone, especially true believers. It can only force down prices and make the marketing more honest._

 

Q2


----------



## vcoheda

spend whatever amount you are comfortable with. there are cables for every price range.


----------



## soundfreq

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Boycott? I've never bought from them in the first place.

 I prefer to DIY my own garden hose._

 

haha, this really made me laugh


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_spend whatever amount you are comfortable with. there are cables for every price range._

 

Are you saying that people who spend a lot on cables wouldn't care if the prices were lowered?


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you saying that people who spend a lot on cables wouldn't care if the prices were lowered?_

 

This is a huge straw man. We're talking about a luxury good here. You could say the same thing about Coach and Channel but in the end without the accompanying price tag, it's not Coach or Channel.


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Chu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is a huge straw man. We're talking about a luxury good here. You could say the same thing about Coach and Channel but in the end without the accompanying price tag, it's not Coach or Channel._

 

I would argue that luxury is defined by its affects rather than its pricetag. A Nordost Odin power cable would still be a luxury item if it cost $50.


----------



## ecommerce813

Whoops, I thought this was the 'boycott cable TV' thread. I think I best get some sleep soon.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would argue that luxury is defined by its affects rather than its pricetag. A Nordost Odin power cable would still be a luxury item if it cost $50._

 

You misunderstand the meaning of the word luxury! By definition, luxury and price are inextricably linked.

 If something is cheaper than it's competition, it is not a luxury item.

 Semantics, but internationally accepted.


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would argue that luxury is defined by its affects rather than its pricetag. A Nordost Odin power cable would still be a luxury item if it cost $50._

 

Exclusivity has always been a large component of luxury. You're trying to fight human nature.


----------



## selfdivider

I agree that some companies charge a ridiculous premium for the sound their products deliver. Snake oil salespeople, some of them! There is no doubt that cables make a difference, but those prices cannot justify the amount of performance boost you'd get, no f-ing way. 

 There are a few that do this right. Empirical Design has great cables at very reasonable prices. One critic at Absolute Sound gave Empirical Design a Golden Ear Award b/c he's been A-B testing all the expensive cables that he'd review with Empirical Design products, and he always preferred the Empirical Design products over the interconnects costing many times more. I use their products & another good thing is that they custom make the interconnects/cables specific to your needs, too. Very hands on.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


 _...Except Blue Jeans doesn't make claims worthy of the next Nobel prize. Their marketing is no-nonsense and whether you can claim to hear it or not, the stated differences between their cables is scientifically sound (e.g. low capacitance interconnects)..._ 
 

It takes little to convince cable skeptics as long as it comes over as «scientific» and they're not forced to judge it by own ears. In fact BJC is just exploiting a merketing niche: cables for cable skeptics -- that sound how a cable should sound: guaranteed absolutely neutral and non-audiophile.
.


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It takes little to convince cable skeptics as long as it comes over as «scientific» and they're not forced to judge it by own ears._

 

Please don't overgeneralize. There were a number of skeptics, including myself, who recognized the serious flaws in that particular study and spent a fair amount of time having a fairly civil discussion about how a similar test could be constructed to address those flaws and potentially provide meaningful results.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It takes little to convince cable skeptics as long as it comes over as «scientific» and they're not forced to judge it by own ears. In fact BJC is just exploiting a merketing niche: cables for cable skeptics -- that sound how a cable should sound: guaranteed absolutely neutral and non-audiophile.
._

 

I fail to see where BJC _ever_ talks about how their cables "sound."

 I also fail to have read about any study that has ever concluded that different cables sound different from one another, not even if one is better than the other.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I fail to see where BJC ever talks about how their cables "sound."_

 

Well, that's the trick! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's why they're the «good guys».
.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, that's the trick! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's why they're the «good guys».
._

 

So not making false claims makes them have an ulterior motive?


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, that's the trick! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's why they're the «good guys».
._

 

This is the most bizarre logic I have encountered in a long time.

 It's like saying professional nutritionists with a high rate of successful weight-loss treatment are tricksters in the same boat as late-nite TV infomercials that push no exercise/eat as much as you want diet pills.

 --Chris


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_guaranteed absolutely neutral and non-audiophile._

 

You've got some mutual exclusivity going on there.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## markl

Quote:


 I also fail to have read about any study that has ever concluded that different cables sound different from one another, not even if one is better than the other. 
 

 Then why on earth don't you simply use the stock RCA cables that came with your gear? Why would you invest $40 whole dollars on Blue jeans Cable when you know they are pure bunk?


----------



## bigshot

That's a bingo, Markl. As long as the stock cables are properly shielded and the connectors make good solid connection, there is absolutely no reason to spend $40 on a replacement. That would be silly. Spending more than $40 would be even more silly, depending on how much money you waste on it.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would argue that luxury is defined by its affects rather than its pricetag. A Nordost Odin power cable would still be a luxury item if it cost $50._

 

While it might still be a luxury item at $50, it would be more 'luxurious' at $5,000 or $50,000.

 The level of luxury is defined by the price.

 A $5,000 mud bath using mud crushed by virgins using rocks blessed by some voodoo holy man in some far away land is way more luxurious than a mud bath using dirt from your backyard. Is it better in any way? Who knows, but it sure sounds more luxurious.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So not making false claims makes them have an ulterior motive?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is the most bizarre logic I have encountered in a long time. -- It's like saying professional nutritionists with a high rate of successful weight-loss treatment are tricksters in the same boat as late-nite TV infomercials that push no exercise/eat as much as you want diet pills._

 

It seems to take «cable believers» such as _Mark_ for deciphring the obvious message between the lines in my posts. BJC's marketing strategy -- relying on some technical keywords and taking distance to audiophilia -- apparently is too clever for some of the «skeptics». 

 All cables sound the same, right? (With very few exceptions purposely trimmed for coloration.) The interconnects that came with my CD players (Philips, Sony...) or my amps (Hitachi, Stax...) were built very robust, properly shielded and even of decent esthetics (not really my concern, though). They did their job perfectly and cost nothing. I'm sure almost every Head-Fier has some decent OEM cables around, and if not, there will be a friend to help him/her out. So why pay $30 or $35 for something we already have or can buy for $10 elsewhere?

 I'm not accusing Blue Jeans Cable by any means. It seems to be a fair company, and their prices are decent. Also, I'm quite sure that their cables sound quite a bit better than usual OEM cables. However, their claim still stands: you can't get any «better» (= more neutral and accurate sounding) cables than the ones that they sell. And many people believe it.
.


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Also, I'm quite sure that their cables sound quite a bit better than usual OEM cables._

 


 Do BJC make this outrageous, unsubstantiated claim? Or do their supporters?


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Do BJC make this outrageous, unsubstantiated claim? Or do their supporters? 
 

If Blue Jeans wants you to believe that all cables are the same, why are they in business when you can just use the freebies that come with your components? It's an interesting sales pitch: "Please buy and use our expensive products instead of the free ones that came with your gear; you won't hear or see a difference because all cables are the same, but please buy from us anyway-- baby needs a new pair of shoes." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Quote:


 So not making false claims makes them have an ulterior motive? 
 

Well, let's take a look at some statements on their site and you be the judge...

  Quote:


 Naturally, whenever the subject of premium cabling for home a/v systems comes up, the important question arises: does wire really matter? 

 The answer is that sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't, and that when it does, it's a purely subjective question whether the improvement in sound or picture is really worth it. 
 

 In other words, yes, our cables do make a difference, but that difference is subjective and only you can decide if it's worth the extra expense. We can't prove it to you, so please buy them and pray you can hear a subjective difference.

  Quote:


 Absent some sort of known malfunction, there's very little reason to think that replacement of control or power cables will improve your system's performance at all. There have been a lot of strange claims made in recent years about power cords, and people paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars for them; but the fact is that a power cord, so long as it's well-constructed and undamaged, correctly sized for the load, and driving a reasonably well-designed power supply, should make no difference whatsoever to the sound of your system. The same goes for these other non-signal cables. If they seem to be working, don't mess with them. 
 

 Our position is that cables not in the signal path such as power cords do not make a difference (and so we don't make them), however, for cables in the signal path, well, that's a different story.

  Quote:


 But the thing that you need to know is that a cable doesn't simply shunt electricity from one point to another without alteration. The manner and extent to which a cable deviates from that ideal is directly related to the physical structure of the cable and its connectors. 
 

 In other words, the parts and construction you use in building cables does make a difference in sound quality and are not all the same.

  Quote:


 The extent to which a cable does any or all of these things to a signal is determined by the cable's physical structure and the environment in which it operates. Attenuation of the signal is directly related to the nature and configuration of the conductors. 
 

 Cable geometry (considered voodoo by flat-erathers) does matter. So all that Cardas Golden Section nonsense is valid and can make a difefernce, according to BJC.

  Quote:


 Ditto for the connectors, which contribute their own capacitance, inductance, and shielding characteristics, 
 

 i.e. there just might be something to fancy connectors such as WBT, Furutech, etc.

  Quote:


 But the fact is that these basic, well-known aspects of an audio/video cable are the fundamentals which control whether it conveys a signal poorly, satisfactorily, or exceptionally well. 
 

 So, there are good cables, mediocre cables, and bad cables. They are not all created equal. So, who's to say BJC has accidentally stumbled upon the magic formula for the "perfect" cable? Just by using stock wire? What an amazing coincidence.

 Bottom line-- if you are open to the idea that BJC cables are "better" than stock cables, then you must be open to the idea that some other cable manufacturer has created a cable "better" than Blue Jeans. If there are shades of goodness in a cable, then there are cables out there that out-perform BJC's off-the-shelf stuff.

  Quote:


 Better cables will deliver cleaner signals throughout your a/v system; that's a fact, which can be objectively proven. 
 

 Not all cables created the same, and some (presumably theirs) will deliver better signal which is audible.

  Quote:


 But how does that translate into what you see and hear when you watch and listen? It's fair to say that people differ greatly in their ability to tell the difference between cables or components, and meanwhile, systems vary in their response to different cables. 
 

i.e. we're with the wackos on Head-Fi who can hear more differences between cables than any of the flat-earthers. Not all ears are created equal, not all people can discern the same differences. "System synergy", another piece of audiophile voodoo is also real. Cables will sound "diufferent" in different systems.

 I got all that from just one of their pages.

 Dudes have to ask yourselves if BJC is so on the level and are with the skeptics, why are they in business? To re-sell you something they agree you can get for free with your gear? their very existence says that they believe cables matter.

 Either that or they are one cynical-ass business who know the products they make are bogus and that there's a sucker born every minute (with their suckers being cheaper than the suckers that buy more expensive boutique cables).


----------



## slwiser

It has been established that people don't read what manufacturer's say assuming it is not worth reading I presume. And this is apparently because they are selling something and because of those sales efforts they are trying to rip us off as someone said concerning the field of sales somewhere above or on another similar thread.


----------



## markl

P.S. I've looked all over BJC's site and nowhere do I see any double-blind tests that show that their cables are superior to any other. Nor do I see any lab analysis or measurements of any of their cables.

 So, all the above claims are just as unsubstantiated as any other cable manufacturers' out there.


 Again, look at the marketing pitch of BJC--

 1. We know cables matter, and that not all cables perform the same.

 2. But we want to sell the cheapest possible upgrade to a ceratain market segment.

 3. We've identified a niche in the aftermarket cable market at the very bottom that is going largely unserved by the other boutique cable makers. There's too many focused at the top, so we'll try to take the bottom of the market.

 4. If we use fancy custom-made wire, ultra-fnacy connectors and spend time developing a specialty product, it will have to be priced out of the range of this niche we've identified. So, we'll just use off-the-shelf components bought in bulk.

 5. This market segment, being that they are not well-heeled enough to afford the more expensive boutique stuff (they secretly lust after-- shhhhhhh), can be convinced that it's all bunk and that only the most plain vanilla cable is all they will ever need. It's natural for them to want to believe that it's only silly audiofools with more money than brains that buy the expensive stuff, so we'll take advantage of that and claim our cables function just as well for a lot less money--- a price even they could afford. See, they aren't economically disadvantaged or cheap, they're merely thrifty people who see through all the snake oil that more expensive brands use. Oh, those dumb, rich audiophiles. They'll buy anything. But not our customers, they want a low-key pitch, where we subtly take digs at audiophiles too, so we'll use that to our advantage.


 BJC is not some bastion of common-sense, cable skeptics. They are a business who have identified you as apotential customer and tailored their product (and message) to fit.


----------



## d.phens

Some people have money so they spend it on charity 

 I think it's the human perfectionism that doesn't let them sleep if they don't have their signal chain absolutely perfect.
 The aftermarket cable manufacturers just fill the gap and use common advertising techniques (sometimes as unreal as cold war propaganda).


----------



## markl

There is no moral difference between buying a Senn HD650 to replace a pair of stock phones than buying an aftermarket cable to replace a stock cable.

 If you think so, then you should also chastize the people wasting $40 on Blue Jeans Cables when that could feed a homeless man for a few days.

 Also, what kind of jeans do you wear? Wal-mart specials or do they have a label and cost you $10-$40 more?


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This market segment, being that they are not well-heeled enough to afford the more expensive boutique stuff (they secretly lust after-- shhhhhhh), can be convinced that it's all bunk and that only the most plain vanilla cable is all they will ever need._

 

I can't help but wonder if you actually believe this, or if you write it simply to provoke a reaction. Either way, it's really kind of sad. I can honestly say that I hope that I never need to be as "well-heeled" as you in order to enjoy music.


----------



## markl

It is provocative, isn't it? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And yes, that's the whole point. Be as provactive as those arguing the other point to splash cold water in the face so people can't miss the fallacies in their arguments. I'm under no special constraint to behave better than others on the board who have posted herein. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 That said, you should agree there is a general trend of cable skeptics being young people new to the audio hobby. I think that's a very fair assessment based on what we've see here over the last years since that wave of folks came in.

 Now, when I was in college eating Ramen every day to survive, I couldn't have afforded fancy aftermarket cables either. But as an adult, things change.


----------



## jp11801

omg can't we simply leave well enough alone... If someone wants to spend a few hundred bucks on a cable that may or may not improve there system who is anyone here to stand on their soapbox to stop them? 
 MarkL actually brings up a point with his denim jeans comment, people buy what they want to buy based on how they feel about the purchase. Nike sneakers do not make you jump higher or run faster, they just cost you triple what the off brand does, generic cereal is often made in the same factory as name brands costing double. Hey and there are well known cable brands that use the same wires that BJC uses. Some high priced brands do not manufacture there own cables but third party them out. People should feel free to buy what they want.

 While I think people should focus first on the main section of their rigs first who am I to tell you how to spend you hard earned cash. If you want a $300 darkvoice paired with a $300 set of kimber ICs that is your choice. Personally I would buy a $550 amp and $50 ICs but it's not my money it's person making the purchase.


----------



## 883dave

I think it sums it up in that if someone is going to buy an aftermarket cable they have already bought into the ???? is better. 

 If the cable that came with the unit (assuming a cable was provided) is defective, ie. the connector is falling off, there is a split in the wire...etc., what is wrong with that cable?

 Why not go to Wal-mart or your local home store, not only will you save money, there are no shipping charges. Wal-mart and my local home store both sell Belkin manufactured cables.

 Why would anyone want to have a more expensive cable, from a boutique vendor?

 Is it for quality of construction? Without disecting both, how would one know.

 Appearance? 

 Sound quality?

 Status?

 The first rung on the up-grade ladder?

 Any I missed?


----------



## bigshot

Cable arguments come down to elitism and superiority. "You can't afford the best, so what do you know?" "There must be something wrong with your hearing, or your equipment sucks."

 The truth is a cable either works properly or it doesn't. The same sound comes out of a properly made $4 cable at an electronics supply store as a properly made Blue Jeans cable or a properly made high end cable.

 The trick to great sound isn't "the best of everything". It's knowing what matters and what doesn't, and focusing on things that really do make a difference. Cables are dead last in importance. If you are worrying about that, odds are there are plenty of really important things that you're overlooking.

 Don't waste time or money, and don't fall into the audiophile snob trap. Buy a cable that works, or use the one that came with your equipment if it's good and move on to more important things. It's amazing how much money and time people waste on trivia.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That said, you should agree there is a general trend of cable skeptics being young people new to the audio hobby._

 

That is totally wrong. Monster cable isn't designed to fleece experienced audiophiles. "You aren't getting the best sound if you don't have Monster cables!" It's designed to make beginners worry and spend too much on wires. Then the high end cable companies try to convince you that Monster Cables aren't good enough. "YOU need better than that to get the best sound!"

 It's plain old American upsell aimed at folks who don't have a grasp of what's important and what isn't, so they spend money on whatever the salesman tells them will make a difference.

 I think the term "skeptic" isn't a good description of me. I am practical. I want to expend my efforts on things that matter, and not waste energy on things that don't. Science helps me figure out which is which, and my ears help me figure out when I've reached the limits of human hearing, so I don't chase down specs that only bats can hear.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cable arguments come down to elitism and superiority. "You can't afford the best, so what do you know?" "There must be something wrong with your hearing, or your equipment sucks."

 The truth is a cable either works properly or it doesn't. The same sound comes out of a properly made $4 cable at an electronics supply store as a properly made Blue Jeans cable or a properly made high end cable.

 The trick to great sound isn't "the best of everything". It's knowing what matters and what doesn't, and focusing on things that really do make a difference. Cables are dead last in importance. If you are worrying about that, odds are there are plenty of really important things that you're overlooking.

 Don't waste time or money, and don't fall into the audiophile snob trap. Buy a cable that works, or use the one that came with your equipment if it's good and move on to more important things. It's amazing how much money and time people waste on trivia.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Also this is a hobby, when on forums you have to dissern what is true and what is opinion. In the case of extremes, generally the truth is down the middle.

 Play, experiment, have fun, listen to music....This is a very personal hobby, as very few people sound the same, do we hear the same.

 I agree with Steve, get wire to connect your equipment. Focus your time and resources on transducers, (room if applicable) music, sources, amplification...then tweaks

 How many here have more $$ invested in gear than they do musical source?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also this is a hobby, when on forums you have to dissern what is true and what is opinion. In the case of extremes, generally the truth is down the middle._

 

This is generalizing, but I've found that the truth almost never lies halfway between two opposing viewpoints. Mankind is too emotional. Emotion can make someone totally throw out logic and reason without realizing it. Usually, one side has right on their side and the other has a passionate emotional investment in being wrong.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many here have more $$ invested in gear than they do musical source?_

 

Oh Lord! I've spent an awful lot of money on equipment, but nothing like what I've spent on music.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That is totally wrong. Monster cable isn't designed to fleece experienced audiophiles. "You aren't getting the best sound if you don't have Monster cables!" It's designed to make beginners worry and spend too much on wires. Then the high end cable companies try to convince you that Monster Cables aren't good enough. "YOU need better than that to get the best sound!"

 It's plain old American upsell aimed at folks who don't have a grasp of what's important and what isn't, so they spend money on whatever the salesman tells them will make a difference.

 I think the term "skeptic" isn't a good description of me. I am practical. I want to expend my efforts on things that matter, and not waste energy on things that don't. Science helps me figure out which is which, and my ears help me figure out when I've reached the limits of human hearing, so I don't chase down specs that only bats can hear.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Steve...it seems that BJC or "????" is the new Monster. Someone always finds that incremental step. 

 Yes Steve you are practical, however, look on this sub-forum, the general skeptic or "practical" person is on the South side of twenty, and most of them are already on their way to utopia. 
 How many actually use "$4 cable at an electronics supply store", a practical or "thrifty" person would use these cables instead of paying 8x more to get a name brand.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is generalizing, but I've found that the truth almost never lies halfway between two opposing viewpoints. Mankind is too emotional. Emotion can make someone totally throw out logic and reason without realizing it. Usually, one side has right on their side and the other has a passionate emotional investment in being wrong.



 Oh Lord! I've spent an awful lot of money on equipment, but nothing like what I've spent on music.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

The secret is discerning which side is which.

 Music is the Nirvana

 Equipment is the conveyor.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The truth is a cable either works properly or it doesn't. The same sound comes out of a properly made $4 cable at an electronics supply store as a properly made Blue Jeans cable or a properly made high end cable._

 

Aren't religious statements prohibited on Head-Fi?
.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 The trick to great sound isn't "the best of everything". It's knowing what matters and what doesn't, and focusing on things that really do make a difference. Cables are dead last in importance. 
 

100% agree. Bigshot, I think sometimes in your mind you are always arguing with someone like Patrick, who is hardly representative of 99.999999999999999999% of audiophiles. That guy just doesn't "get it", and I half suspect that he is a put on and not at all for real. Outside of a miniscule lunatic fringe (made up possibly of only Patrick himself), there aren't a lot of people arguing you should stick a $5000 cable on a $200 source.

 That said, you don't seem to believe in superior sources or ampage. IMO, that puts you on a sort of lunatic fringe at the other end. Forget about cables, you don't want people putting there money anywhere in the signal path it seems to me.

  Quote:


 Oh Lord! I've spent an awful lot of money on equipment, but nothing like what I've spent on music. 
 

 Me too.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Steve...it seems that BJC or "????" is the new Monster. Someone always finds that incremental step._

 

Exactly. I'm not saying that Blue Jeans cables are any better sounding than any other properly made cable.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes Steve you are practical, however, look on this sub-forum, the general skeptic or "practical" person is on the South side of twenty, and most of them are already on their way to utopia._

 

I don't really care how old or young anyone is. We're all on a journey in the same direction. What counts isn't where you are in the journey... what matters is that you are headed in a logical direction. If someone is trying to figure out how things work and apply that to their decision-making process, they have my respect. That is infinitely preferable to randomly trying out every option in the world to find out the best path. Randomness is totally inefficient and impractical. We have a brain for a purpose.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many actually use "$4 cable at an electronics supply store", a practical or "thrifty" person would use these cables instead of paying 8x more to get a name brand._

 

I have a lot of cables that I bought at Electronics City in Burbank for very little money. Some cables I bought at Radio Shack for about double the price because Electronics City wasn't open nights or Sundays. The cables that I paid more for because of convenience don't sound any different from the inexpensive ones.

 I don't listen to brand names. I buy what works at the best price. I learned that very early. When I was a kid, Sanyo had these commercials on TV with a disco queen singing, "SANNN-YOOOOOO!" Everyone made fun of it. Apparently the engineers who worked for Sanyo in Japan were embarrassed, and decided to put out a high end line to show that they weren't just a cheapjack brand. I was shopping for an amp at the time, and after looking over all of the amps to choose from, I picked one of these Sanyos. My friends thought it was hilarious... until the glowing reviews in the stereo magazines started coming out.

 Brand means nothing. Some brands represent quality that used to be there and doesn't exist any more. Others are the same only reversed. Better to judge by the equipment that is sitting in front of you, not reputation.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## oicdn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the term "skeptic" isn't a good description of me. I am practical. I want to expend my efforts on things that matter, and not waste energy on things that don't. *Science helps me figure out which is which, and my ears help me figure out when I've reached the limits of human hearing, so I don't chase down specs that only bats can hear.*

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I think we think VERY alike....

 Nice post.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...being that they are not well-heeled enough to afford the more expensive boutique stuff (they secretly lust after-- shhhhhhh), can be convinced that it's all bunk and that only the most plain vanilla cable is all they will ever need. It's natural for them to want to believe that it's only silly audiofools with more money than brains that buy the expensive stuff, so we'll take advantage of that and claim our cables function just as well for a lot less money--- a price even they could afford. See, they aren't economically disadvantaged or cheap, they're merely thrifty people who see through all the snake oil that more expensive brands use. Oh, those dumb, rich audiophiles. They'll buy anything. But not our customers, they want a low-key pitch, where we subtly take digs at audiophiles too, so we'll use that to our advantage.

 BJC is not some bastion of common-sense, cable skeptics. They are a business who have identified you as apotential customer and tailored their product (and message) to fit._

 

Secret lust? Markl, if I want something I buy it. I've spent money on fashion items and probably too much on clothes. The difference is that I know they won't keep me any warmer or work better than clothes at Target or the Salvation Army. Clothes are clothes. I'll buy for style, but style doesn't mean a whole lot.

 If someone wants to buy cables for style and fashion, fine. I understand. But if there are claims that go beyond that, I want proof. Would you buy a pair of jeans that, somehow, promised to make you taller and better looking? Probably not, unless they could show you how they do that. Don't you think that's fair?

 For the record, I bought the Blue Jeans cables for, admittedly, fashion. I had a mix of different cables and wanted a matching set. Also, I like the build quality. I've seen plenty of extension cords and guitar cables short from poor construction and know that spending for durability is worth it. So I went with ones that will hold up to being stepped on or kicked around. They do. I don't make claims about the sound.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That said, you should agree there is a general trend of cable skeptics being young people new to the audio hobby. I think that's a very fair assessment based on what we've see here over the last years since that wave of folks came in.

 Now, when I was in college eating Ramen every day to survive, I couldn't have afforded fancy aftermarket cables either. But as an adult, things change._

 

Young and new to the hobby? Not me. I've been an audio and amateur radio enthusiast for ten years, have restored over 100 tube radios (I especially like the multiband sets and even restored an all-tube TV from 1955), build hi-fi gear, and am working on a commercial radio license. Just for fun. I'm 35, a lawyer (and have been since I was 25) and money isn't a problem. There's a family business and trust, as well, but I just reinvest that income. I have another year before I'm fully vested in the retirement program, and I'll re-evaluate things at that point.

 Now that you can afford to spend several thousand on cables, why don't you buy an oscilloscope? How about a spectrum analyzer? Maybe you could take a few electrical engineering classes to learn more. Even better, if you were enrolled, you could get access to several hundred thousand dollars worth of test equipment. You could have a few Ph.D.s lend a hand, even.

 If you found some difference, some physical basis, you'd be worth millions. Aftermarket cables are a huge business. If you could prove cables to work or understand the science behind them, you'd rake in millions in consulting fees. Instead of writing reviews for free, you could get $700 an hour or more for consulting. Fly around the world, get put up in nice hotels, expense dinners, all the good stuff.

 And once you figure out how cables work, you could use that data to make even better ones. You'd have cables that sounded even better than the ones you have now. You'd also prove the skeptics wrong once and for all.

 Would you consider renting some test equipment for your next round of cable tests? The prices aren't bad. Think of it this way: even if the tests aren't conclusive, you'd at least be able to say that you tested them and offer results. While it may not prove anything, you'd gain a lot of respect for simply trying.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 Would you consider renting some test equipment for your next round of cable tests? The prices aren't bad. Think of it this way: even if the tests aren't conclusive, you'd at least be able to say that you tested them and offer results. While it may not prove anything, you'd gain a lot of respect for simply trying. 
 

Uncle Erik, I think you operate under the misconception that like you, measurements by machines that go "ping" means anything to me. It doesn't tell me a damn thing, except it works or it doesn't work. I always will fully concede that using today's equipment, one can't conclude anything about one cable's performance vs. another and two well-made cables will likely measure nearly the same. That ain't the point.


 Here are some specs for a popular hi-end headphone:

  Quote:


 Frequency Response 10 - 39,500 Hz (-10dB) 
 Nominal Impedance 300ohms 
 Weight 260g 
 Contact Pressure approx. 3.4N( ±0.3N) 
 Transducer Principle Dynamic, open 
 


 Now, based on that, tell me how they sound.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_While it may not prove anything, you'd gain a lot of respect for simply trying._

 

Yeah, but maybe respect isn't the first goal of an audiophile music lover, but rather to enjoy the music in even better quality. So why the tests which prove nothing anyway? The best test you can do to find out if a component makes a difference to your ears is to audition it. That's valid for any sort of equipment for me. I don't need proof that this and that amp or source is technically better (how would you measure that, BTW?), it suffices that it is better to my ears. Of course technical justifications would be nice and make a lot of fruitless discussions superfluous, but that's of second or third priority.
.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That said, you don't seem to believe in superior sources or ampage. IMO, that puts you on a sort of lunatic fringe at the other end._

 

Here's the deal.

 I've been involved in audio long enough to have worked with some of the people who established the business. I spent countless hours recording and mixing in the studio of the man who is such a legend in Hollywood, he has a sound effect and a Star Trek monster named after him. I assisted the sound mixer and transferred dailies on the very first television program that was recorded 100% digital. I've worked with every possible format from 78rpm acoustic recordings to 15 ips 24 track to 35mm fullcoat mag to a full ProTools workstation. I've operated mag readers, Nagras, moviolas and flatbeds. I was a hifi nut back when sources really DID make a difference... a cassette sounded nothing like an LP which sounded nothing like a R2R. I navigated my way through the tangle of generation loss, and I know how many times you can bounce down comp tracks on 24 track before you start losing quality. If you can get ahold of the masters to the Everest recordings, I have three 35mm mag readers sitting in the back room at my office we can play them on. So I think I know a thing or two about what makes sound sound good.

 Here's what I know... Redbook sounds perfect right out of the box. Cables don't matter. Speakers and an amp capable of pushing them DO matter. So does a listening environment that acoustically complements your equipment. Equalize your response to get it as flat as humanly possible. And most of all, keep your focus on the music, because that is the reason we go to all this hassle to achieve great sound.

 If that's the lunatic fringe to you, there's nothing I can say to you that would help.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Uncle Erik

Markl, you are right. I can't tell you how those headphones sound.

 My point is that you can take a second pair of headphones and measure them, as well. Then you can compare those data and conclude that the two sets are, in fact, different.

 What I want to see is two data sets for two cables showing a difference. Modern test equipment is extremely sensitive. All I ask is that two or more cables be analyzed and compared. That will tell you nothing about how they sound. However, it will give you a wealth of information as to why they sound different and actually establish that they are different.

 I don't agree with everyone's interpretation of the way a headphone sounds, but no one ever argues that there's no difference between them.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now, based on that, tell me how they sound._

 

A frequency response rated to +/-10dB could sound like just about anything. Get me a response for +/-3dB and let me know how it fits over the ears, and I'll tell you.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My point is that you can take a second pair of headphones and measure them, as well. Then you can compare those data and conclude that the two sets are, in fact, different.

 What I want to see is two data sets for two cables showing a difference. Unless I can see that, I have to conclude that they sound the same. The data cannot tell me how something sounds, but they absolutely can show that a difference exists._

 

Different cables measure different as well. The same applies to amps. Nevertheless you can't tell which criteria are responsible for which sonic characteristic.
.


----------



## number1sixerfan

The thing is, the very fact that this is such an inconclusive argument insinuates to me that cable differences are minimal at best. People rarely quesition whether different headphones, speakers, amps, or sources make a noticeable difference to sound. This is because the differences are very apparent. Cable differences, not so much so. And this is from my experience with them.

 I believe that cables can make sonic improvements, but the improvements are usually very subtle at best, unless you are coming from a very, very poor cable(i.e. senn hd650). Thus, these cables are horribly overpriced when taking into consideration performance to price ratio. However, they are not nearly as overpriced as they seem when you take into consideration the time and effort put into building them.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, but maybe respect isn't the first goal of an audiophile music lover, but rather to enjoy the music in even better quality. So why the tests which prove nothing anyway? The best test you can do to find out if a component makes a difference to your ears is to audition it. That's valid for any sort of equipment for me. I don't need proof that this and that amp or source is technically better (how would you measure that, BTW?), it suffices that it is better to my ears. Of course technical justifications would be nice and make a lot of fruitless discussions superfluous, but that's of second or third priority.
._

 

I'm not looking for technically better. I'm looking for proof that there is any difference at all between cables.

 You could use the free cables that came with your CD player, or you could spend more than $10,000 on aftermarket cables.

 Is there a difference?

 Test equipment can show this. The data will not show how something sounds and will not prove one better than the other. That's not the point, anyway.

 What should be proven is that there is, in fact, a difference between the $5 cable and the $10,000 one. Put them both on a spectrum analyzer and see what comes up.

 If you get two different data sets, then I will change my mind about cables. It's that simple.


----------



## Aardvarks

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's the deal.

 I've been involved in audio long enough to have worked with some of the people who established the business. I spent countless hours recording and mixing in the studio of the man who is such a legend in Hollywood, he has a sound effect and a Star Trek monster named after him. I assisted the sound mixer and transferred dailies on the very first television program that was recorded 100% digital. I've worked with every possible format from 78rpm acoustic recordings to 15 ips 24 track to 35mm fullcoat mag to a full ProTools workstation. I've operated mag readers, Nagras, moviolas and flatbeds. I was a hifi nut back when sources really DID make a difference... a cassette sounded nothing like an LP which sounded nothing like a R2R. I navigated my way through the tangle of generation loss, and I know how many times you can bounce down comp tracks on 24 track before you start losing quality. If you can get ahold of the masters to the Everest recordings, I have three 35mm mag readers sitting in the back room at my office we can play them on. So I think I know a thing or two about what makes sound sound good.

 Here's what I know... *Redbook sounds perfect right out of the box. Cables don't matter. Speakers and an amp capable of pushing them DO matter. So does a listening environment that acoustically complements your equipment. Equalize your response to get it as flat as humanly possible. And most of all, keep your focus on the music, because that is the reason we go to all this hassle to achieve great sound.*

 If that's the lunatic fringe to you, there's nothing I can say to you that would help.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Darn, if you were british....and I had the clout......there would be an honour on its way to you Sir.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Different cables measure different as well. The same applies to amps. Nevertheless you can't tell which criteria are responsible for which sonic characteristic.
._

 

If cables measure differently, please show us. I've seen plenty of analysis of amps, speakers, CD players, even capacitors. But not for cables.

 I think you could use measurements to nail down what you like. If you keep seeing the same signature for what you like, you can empirically determine what is responsible. From there, you can develop things that sound even more like what you want. Amp and speaker designers do this all the time.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not looking for technically better. I'm looking for proof that there is any difference at all between cables. ... If you get two different data sets, then I will change my mind about cables. It's that simple._

 

We effectively have a different approach. I use my ears to hear if there's an audible difference -- I don't need the proof. The latter approach may even be in the way of openmindedness.

 BTW, there are clear measurable differences with cables, as in every other component. The question is: are they audible? No measuring equipment can tell you that. Moreover, it's officially certified that different (headphone) amps sound different. Based on which measuring data? The main criterion where they indeed show somewhat significant differences is harmonic distortion. But then again, on an extremely low level (0.01% and lower) that's not considered audible by classic electrical engineering and psychoacoustics. None of the perceived characteristics in modern (solid-state) amps could have been predicted by means of measuring data.
.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If cables measure differently, please show us._

 

_Stereoplay_ has extensively measured cable characteristics on a regular basis in earlier editions. I don't have access to their archives, though. I could search if I have some of the corresponding editions around and take some pictures. But I'm sure there's enough examples on the net.
.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is generalizing, but I've found that the truth almost never lies halfway between two opposing viewpoints. Mankind is too emotional. Emotion can make someone totally throw out logic and reason without realizing it. Usually, one side has right on their side and the other has a passionate emotional investment in being wrong.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

This is almost the exact response I expected from one who is far on one side. 

 I have heard cables and sources make a difference in my systems. 
 To date I have not heard the night and day difference...
 Always somewhere down the middle


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you could use measurements to nail down what you like._

 

Not in the case of cable data. There's no clear correlation between measurements and perception.

  Quote:


 _If you keep seeing the same signature for what you like, you can empirically determine what is responsible. From there, you can develop things that sound even more like what you want. Amp and speaker designers do this all the time._ 
 

So please tell us what measuring criteria amp designers use as a basis for their sound-tayloring!
.


----------



## The Monkey

What people seem to be forgetting is that it would appear to be possible to design a proper protocol that would take into account both the technical specs of the cables and the sensory perception of the listener. Power it right, pick a proper endpoint and control, and you'd have yourself a study. Then see if there is separation from control with any statistical significance. I would think that both sides of the argument would like to see this done.

 EDIT: I mention this because I'm not a big fan of manufacturers touting their wares without any substantiation whatsoever, regardless of the industry.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, there are clear measurable differences with cables, as in every other component. The question is: are they audible? No measuring equipment can tell you that._

 

That's where threshold of audibility testing comes in. Numbers are useless without a context that puts them into human terms. I know what 6kHz sounds like. I know what 10dB sounds like. I know jitter is inaudible just by looking at the numbers. I don't have to NOT hear it to know I can't hear it! Next time you get in a car accident and the air bag deploys or when your breaker pops instead of burning down your house, you better be thankful that someone out there is paying attention to the numbers and doing the scientific testing for you.

 People are free to think they hear things they physiologically just can't hear. They're free to believe that they were abducted by UFOs and ghosts talk to them too. They don't need to provide evidence other than their own perceptions. They can vehemently argue about the validity of science when it comes to the paranormal or extra terrestrial life. But if they want to tell me that there is something wrong with my perceptual abilities because I don't share their unsubstantiated delusions, I should be free to tell them what's wrong with their world view too, right?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What people seem to be forgetting is that it would appear to be possible to design a proper protocol that would take into account both the technical specs of the cables and the sensory perception of the listener. Power it right, pick a proper endpoint and control, and you'd have yourself a study. Then see if there is separation from control with any statistical significance. I would think that both sides of the argument would like to see this done._

 

No, both sides wouldn't. The reason that they resist testing is because all those tests have been done, and the results are that the differences between cables are so miniscule, they are totally inaudible. The cable fanciers react to these tests with disdain and go off on tangents picking at the testing protocol or quoting numbers out of context to muddy the waters and divert attention away from the obvious.

 The fact that cables make very little if any difference is self evident, even to cable fanciers. They admit that the cables represent "the last 1% of refinement in their system". When you point out that 1% is certainly small enough to be accounted for by simple perceptual error, they get insulted and start getting mad. This has nothing to do with what someone hears or doesn't hear. It's an ego thing crossed with a status thing (hence the repeated irrelevent references to being the audio equivalent of wine connoisseurs). They've wrapped their self worth up in wires. Reason has nothing to do with this. It's pure emotion. That's why they always get mad and we don't.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's where threshold of audibility testing comes in. Numbers are useless without a context that puts them into human terms. I know what 6kHz sounds like. I know what 10dB sounds like. I know jitter is inaudible just by looking at the numbers. I don't have to NOT hear it to know I can't hear it! Next time you get in a car accident and the air bag deploys or when your breaker pops instead of burning down your house, you better be thankful that someone out there is paying attention to the numbers and doing the scientific testing for you.

 People are free to think they hear things they physiologically just can't hear. They're free to believe that they were abducted by UFOs and ghosts talk to them too. They don't need to provide evidence other than their own perceptions. They can vehemently argue about the validity of science when it comes to the paranormal or extra terrestrial life. But if they want to tell me that there is something wrong with my perceptual abilities because I don't share their unsubstantiated delusions, I should be free to tell them what's wrong with their world view too, right?_

 

You «know» quite a lot. But in the end it's just belief. Your technical knowledge is by no means superior to mine.
.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not in the case of cable data. There's no clear correlation between measurements and perception._

 

You got perception and measurement backwards there.

 I'm in no contest with you over superiority. Where did you get that red herring from?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You got perception and measurement backwards there._

 

That's again a matter of perspective and philosophy, not wrong or right. 

  Quote:


 _I'm in no contest with you over superiority. Where did you get that red herring from?_ 
 

Maybe my wording was a bit short and direct for your understanding. We obviously have very different standpoints, and you keep on preaching that your view and belief be the only correct one -- this without any backup in terms of superior knowledge.

 You might even be wrong with ghosts and extraterrestrials, who knows... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm in no contest with you over superiority. Where did you get that red herring from?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

It might have something to do with the following quote

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's the deal.

 I've been involved in audio long enough to have worked with some of the people who established the business. I spent countless hours recording and mixing in the studio of the man who is such a legend in Hollywood, he has a sound effect and a Star Trek monster named after him. I assisted the sound mixer and transferred dailies on the very first television program that was recorded 100% digital. I've worked with every possible format from 78rpm acoustic recordings to 15 ips 24 track to 35mm fullcoat mag to a full ProTools workstation. I've operated mag readers, Nagras, moviolas and flatbeds. I was a hifi nut back when sources really DID make a difference... a cassette sounded nothing like an LP which sounded nothing like a R2R. I navigated my way through the tangle of generation loss, and I know how many times you can bounce down comp tracks on 24 track before you start losing quality. If you can get ahold of the masters to the Everest recordings, I have three 35mm mag readers sitting in the back room at my office we can play them on. So I think I know a thing or two about what makes sound sound good.

 Here's what I know... Redbook sounds perfect right out of the box. Cables don't matter. Speakers and an amp capable of pushing them DO matter. So does a listening environment that acoustically complements your equipment. Equalize your response to get it as flat as humanly possible. And most of all, keep your focus on the music, because that is the reason we go to all this hassle to achieve great sound.

 If that's the lunatic fringe to you, there's nothing I can say to you that would help.

 See ya
 Steve_


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for your understanding. We obviously have very different standpoints, and you keep on preaching that your view and belief be the only correct one -- this without any backup in terms of superior knowledge._

 

Again, I'm not claiming superior knowledge. I know what I know, and I don't bother to discuss what I don't know. The things I do discuss I back up with supporting arguments based on my experience. Take it or leave it. You're under no obligation to respond, and you're mistaken if you think a competition is going on.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It might have something to do with the following quote_

 

Go back and look at what that post was replying to, champ. Let's hear what you have to say instead of just dogging me.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...and you're mistaken if you think a competition is going on._

 

No competition. You don't get it. You don't know more than I do with my contrasting point of view, but you pretend to «know».
.


----------



## bigshot

congratulations


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's again a matter of perspective and philosophy, not wrong or right. ... you keep on preaching that your view and belief be the only correct one -- this without any backup in terms of superior knowledge.._

 

I don't think it's an issue of _superior_ knowledge. The true believers don't care very much about knowledge, because that is a mental construct independent of the senses. But anyone who has seen a magician knows that the senses can deceive us.

 Our intellect can also deceive us, but that's when we rely on consensus and rigorous testing. And the consensus of audio professionals outside of the audiophile world is that properly constructed cables that measure alike have no audible differences between them.

 Cable marketers can cite all kinds of valid scientific principles in their cable ads, but they NEVER connect these principles to what is known (or unknown!) about human hearing. Principles of cable design used by NASA and in hospital equipment have very little relation to signals within the range of human hearing (even well beyond the range of human hearing!).

 --Chris


----------



## oicdn

I think many people fail to remember that the source or amp plays a role and are possibly going based all on an iPod or another source not up to par???

 I'm not so much of a cable believer, if at all, but what I do know is, on the Lisa I have in front of me, when going from basic Radio Shack RCA cables to ALO Au/Ag cables, the difference was audible. Subtle, if not an overstatement, but the difference was definitly noticeable to my ears, and I could blindly point out the differences 5 out of 5 times. My GF however, couldn't differentiate them, but she also doesn't really care, lol.

 Then I goto my ipod, from the same basic Radio Shack mini and my custom mini, and I can't tell the difference AT ALL. Same goes for an ALO cryo copper and my Turbo dock. The differences, I couldn't tell sonically and blindly, I couldn't tell them apart...but my wallet could.

 And now the reason why I now just buy what looks pretty when it comes to cables. As likely, if the DIYers is taking the effort/time to make it look pretty, it'll sound just the same as the next cable....you're just paying for the aesthetic preference.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...the consensus of audio professionals outside of the audiophile world is that properly constructed cables that measure alike have no audible differences between them._

 

That's because as soon as they out themselves as «cable believers», they're inside of the audiophile world. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oicdn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not so much of a cable believer, if at all, but what I do know is, on the Lisa I have in front of me, when going from basic Radio Shack RCA cables to ALO Au/Ag cables, the difference was audible._

 

Two general recommendations for comparing equipment... Always set them up with a preamp to allow you to do direct A/B comparison. You might even need two preamps to be able to adjust the line levels to match. Slight differences in volume can appear to be differences in audio quality, when the quality is actually identical. A/B comparisons are important because the auditory memory of humans is accurate in detecting slight differences only for a few seconds. The more subtle the difference, the shorter the auditory memory.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the consensus of audio professionals outside of the audiophile world is that properly constructed cables that measure alike have no audible differences between them.
 --Chris_

 

since you are soooo into backing up your talk sould you show me the study that pointed to the "consensus of audio professionals outside of the audiophile world that made this claim, was it at an industry gathering that a poll was taken or perhaps the at the water cooler of CBS recording studio... wherever it was I would really love to read this. Or perhaps you have sought out all the audio pros then qualified them to ensure there were not part of the audiophile secrect cabal of cable charlitains?? Do tell


----------



## tomjtx

bigshot,

 I always enjoy your cogent posts. Thanks for those.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_since you are soooo into backing up your talk sould you show me the study that pointed to the "consensus of audio professionals outside of the audiophile world that made this claim_

 

I've worked with a lot of audio studios in the Hollywood area, and I've talked shop with the engineers and fire crew guys. I've never met one who thought cables sounded different. One told me that when he builds studios he buys spindles of regular old copper cabling and "rolls his own" cables to length because it's cheaper that way. Another said that if he was recording the Beatles today and he was short a cable, he would send an intern to Radio Shack to get the cable and he'd use it in line until it wore out without thinking twice about it. He was that confident of the quality of regular old plain vanilla cables.

 Thanks, tomjtx

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then why on earth don't you simply use the stock RCA cables that came with your gear? Why would you invest $40 whole dollars on Blue jeans Cable when you know they are pure bunk?_

 

I never got any stock cables, my stuff was DIY'd. And I hardly spent $40 on a single cable, although I did spend around $80 on an assortment of different cables.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're under no obligation to respond, and you're mistaken if you think a competition is going on.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

He probably feels it's a competition because you always have to get the last word in. Why do you do that? Sometimes you just have to let things go, even if you don't agree with them. There will never be a final word in cables; those that hear a difference enjoy them.


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_since you are soooo into backing up your talk sould you show me the study that pointed to the "consensus of audio professionals outside of the audiophile world that made this claim, was it at an industry gathering that a poll was taken or perhaps the at the water cooler of CBS recording studio... wherever it was I would really love to read this. Or perhaps you have sought out all the audio pros then qualified them to ensure there were not part of the audiophile secrect cabal of cable charlitains?? Do tell_

 

I love how you have exaggerated standards for my generalizations, while demanding exacting standards of your specific claims is head-fi heresy (e.g. DBT).

 No poll need be taken to show what audio professionals use most. Check out their primary suppliers and catalogs, take a tour of their studios, you will probably never see anything other than quality-constructed copper wire with nickel-plated conductors and PVC jackets, and varying degrees of foam or copper insulation depending on the task. Neutrik and Belden come to mind. Occasionally, particularly amongst hobbyists, you will find gold plating for longevity, but not for sound quality.

 --Chris


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

All I know is that I'm glad my system currently needs no cables, other than a USB cable. And if anyone tried to tell me that I need a better one of those to improve sound quality, I'll just fax in your reservations at the funny farm!


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 No poll need be taken to show what audio professionals use most. Check out their primary suppliers and catalogs, take a tour of their studios, you will probably never see anything other than quality-constructed copper wire with nickel-plated conductors and PVC jackets, and varying degrees of foam or copper insulation depending on the task. Neutrik and Belden come to mind. Occasionally, particularly amongst hobbyists, you will find gold plating for longevity, but not for sound quality.

 --Chris_

 

"All cables & wire whether interconnects or internal are high-end quality, and were chosen after extensive listening tests between many competing brands"

 From Bernie Grundman Mastering

 "Kubala-Sosna Emotion Interconnects, power cords, 20 amp IEC cord, speaker cable and internal and external studio wiring"

 From Steve Hoffman "Mastering room playback system"

 THIS SYSTEM IS WIRED WITH CARDAS CABLE FOR LOW DISTORTION,WIDE-BAND AUDIO, AND SHAKTI RF ABSORBERS FOR BEST POSSIBLE SIGNAL-TO-NOISE RATIO

 From Stan Ricker Mastering


----------



## aldave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fraseyboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Let's boycott cereal companies too for selling cereal at like 10 times what it costs to make it!

 But yeah, I do half agree. I think we should support those DIY people on head-fi that make cables themselves._

 

YEAH!! a box of lucky charms for 6 dollars is absurd!!


----------



## Chu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He probably feels it's a competition because you always have to get the last word in. Why do you do that? Sometimes you just have to let things go, even if you don't agree with them. There will never be a final word in cables; those that hear a difference enjoy them._

 

I've noticed on the internet people tend to judge who "wins" a discussion is the last person to reply. I've tried really hard to keep out of this forum because of that, it just sucks up so much time and energy


----------



## bigshot

Ignorance is like the ocean. It seems to go on forever and it comes in waves.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ignorance is like the ocean. It seems to go on forever and it comes in waves.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Are these people ignorant?

 "All cables & wire whether interconnects or internal are high-end quality, and were chosen after extensive listening tests between many competing brands"

 From Bernie Grundman Mastering

 "Kubala-Sosna Emotion Interconnects, power cords, 20 amp IEC cord, speaker cable and internal and external studio wiring"

 From Steve Hoffman "Mastering room playback system"

 THIS SYSTEM IS WIRED WITH CARDAS CABLE FOR LOW DISTORTION,WIDE-BAND AUDIO, AND SHAKTI RF ABSORBERS FOR BEST POSSIBLE SIGNAL-TO-NOISE RATIO

 From Stan Ricker Mastering


----------



## bigshot

Mastering is quite different than recording. It's a whole different mindset, because they need to convince the artists and engineers who made the record to let them take a crack at their "baby". I've never worked with these three, so I can't comment on their particulars. But some high end studios have sponsorship arrangements, just like musicians have instrument manufacturers as sponsors. But either way, when someone hires a very famous engineer, they are paying for his expertise, not his wires, just like Steve Vai is still Steve Vai even if he doesn't play an Ibenez strung with Ernie Balls.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Mastering is quite different than recording. It's a whole different mindset, because they need to convince the artists and engineers who made the record to let them take a crack at their "baby". I've never worked with these three, so I can't comment on their particulars. But some high end studios have sponsorship arrangements, just like musicians have instrument manufacturers as sponsors. But either way, when someone hires a very famous engineer, they are paying for his expertise, not his wires, just like Steve Vai is still Steve Vai even if he doesn't play an Ibenez strung with Ernie Balls.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Can you ever answer a direct question?

 These three use audiophile wire .... are they ignorant .... yes or no?


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_These three use audiophile wire .... are they ignorant .... yes or no?_

 

No, they have reputations as being great engineers. But there are more reasons to use audiophile wire than sound quality, as I pointed out in the previous post.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are these people ignorant?

 "All cables & wire whether interconnects or internal are high-end quality, and were chosen after extensive listening tests between many competing brands"

 From Bernie Grundman Mastering_




What exactly does Bernie use, that is the real question!

 He *might *very well be saying that he found standard Canare or Mogami with standard Neutrik terminations to be the best quality, and that some snake-oil cables that were terribly expensive induced so many colorations that he couldn't believe that anyone else is using them....and this statement is simply his way of accommodating the believers.

 That is within the realm of possible interpretations.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What exactly does Bernie use, that is the real question!

 He *might *very well be saying that he found standard Canare or Mogami with standard Neutrik terminations to be the best quality, and that some snake-oil cables that were terribly expensive induced so many colorations that he couldn't believe that anyone else is using them....and this statement is simply his way of accommodating the believers.

 That is within the realm of possible interpretations._

 

Possible .... but I doubt it. But, what about the other two?


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, they have reputations as being great engineers. But there are more reasons to use audiophile wire than sound quality, as I pointed out in the previous post.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference.

 So now, assuming his comments were true is Steve Hoffman ignorant?


----------



## bigshot

No, he has a reputation as being a great engineer. But there are more reasons to use audiophile wire than sound quality, as I pointed out in the previous post.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, he has a reputation as being a great engineer. But there are more reasons to use audiophile wire than sound quality, as I pointed out in the previous post.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I am not addressing those possible reasons.

 I asked ....

 I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference.

 So now, assuming his comments were true is Steve Hoffman ignorant?

 So what is your answer?


----------



## sejarzo

Ahem...sacdlover.......bigshot never indicated in his post re "ignorance is like the ocean" that mastering engineers using so-called audiophile cables were ignorant.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What exactly does Bernie use, that is the real question!

 He *might *very well be saying that he found standard Canare or Mogami with standard Neutrik terminations to be the best quality, and that some snake-oil cables that were terribly expensive induced so many colorations that he couldn't believe that anyone else is using them....and this statement is simply his way of accommodating the believers.

 That is within the realm of possible interpretations._

 

And the answer is.....

 Cardas' web site explains that the Neutral Reference is their attempt at "a perfectly neutral reference" digital transmission cable, and that the Neutral Reference is the choice for AES/EBU and SPDIF applications by none other than famous mastering engineer Bernie Grundman at his mastering house in Los Angeles

 From 6moons AudioReview


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ahem...sacdlover.......bigshot never indicated in his post re "ignorance is like the ocean" that mastering engineers using so-called audiophile cables were ignorant._

 

I am aware of that. He never indicated the opposite either; hence the question.


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the answer is.....

 Cardas' web site explains that the Neutral Reference is their attempt at "a perfectly neutral reference" digital transmission cable, and that the Neutral Reference is the choice for AES/EBU and SPDIF applications by none other than famous mastering engineer Bernie Grundman at his mastering house in Los Angeles_

 

He may be a damned fine mastering engineer, but if he thinks short of troubleshooting specific issues (long distances, abnormal levels of interference) that one well-made digital cable is any different than another, then yes, he is ignorant of the most basic principles of digital logic.

 --Chris


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And the answer is.....

 Cardas' web site explains that the Neutral Reference is their attempt at "a perfectly neutral reference" digital transmission cable, and that the Neutral Reference is the choice for AES/EBU and SPDIF applications by none other than famous mastering engineer Bernie Grundman at his mastering house in Los Angeles

 From 6moons AudioReview_

 

Appeal to authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am not addressing those possible reasons._

 

No you are not. If you do, you'll find the answer to your question.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From 6moons AudioReview_

 

Six Moons Reviews The Intelligent Chip

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Six Moons Reviews The Intelligent Chip

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I'm truly disappointed now......it appears as if the Intelligent Chip is no longer made by our good friends at Machina Dynamica, as the link to its page from the 6moons review is bad....and they've taken it of their price page.

 Blew their whole wad of kryptonite or whatever it was too fast, I guess.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No you are not. If you do, you'll find the answer to your question.

 See ya
 Steve_

 


 I read your answer and your answer was avasive and skirted the real question.

 I rephrased the question and I asked ....

 I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference.

 So now, assuming his comments were true is Steve Hoffman ignorant?

 Can you answer this question instead of playing games?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I read your answer and your answer was avasive and skirted the real question.

 I rephrased the question and I asked ....

 I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference.

 So now, assuming his comments were true is Steve Hoffman ignorant?

 Can you answer this question instead of playing games?_

 

You won't get a reasonable answer out of bigshot, read all the other cable threads. his mind is set as cement that good cables do not make any difference, despite he never used or tried any high end cables.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 Bigshot is the preacher of the non-believers.

 Ontopic: the cardas neutral is less neutral then some other cables.

 I just compared to IC's to eachother and i can assure you, both sounded NOT the same!


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I read your answer and your answer was avasive and skirted the real question. Can you answer this question instead of playing games?_

 

It was not evasive. I told you that big names like that are like celebrities who do endorsements in return for money or product. When every decent cable sounds the same, why not get some high end cable company to foot the bill for all the cabling your studio when all you have to say is that you use their product and it sounds great? Besides, the top guy at the studio isn't going to have much of anything to do with the wires in the walls. They have whole crews working for them dealing with details like that.

 What you read on fan sites isn't the same as what you hear when you are sitting in the studio with the engineer. Do you really think all those sports celebrities who were on the commercials saying, "I'm going to Disneyland!" actually went?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You won't get a reasonable answer out of bigshot, read all the other cable threads. his mind is set as cement that good cables do not make any difference, despite he never used or tried any high end cables. Bigshot is the preacher of the non-believers._

 

If you don't want me publicly discussing you and my opinions of your weaknesses, you'll refrain from posting your opinions on me.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was not evasive. I told you that big names like that are like celebrities who do endorsements in return for money or product. When every decent cable sounds the same, why not get some high end cable company to foot the bill for all the cabling your studio when all you have to say is that you use their product and it sounds great? Besides, the top guy at the studio isn't going to have much of anything to do with the wires in the walls. They have whole crews working for them dealing with details like that.

 What you read on fan sites isn't the same as what you hear when you are sitting in the studio with the engineer. Do you really think all those sports celebrities who were on the commercials saying, "I'm going to Disneyland!" actually went?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Are you saying that someone who is Famous and believes in cables must be a Shill?


----------



## chesebert

we need to move beyond the notion and terminology of 'believer' and 'nonbeliever'. Instead, we need to ask ourselves can we hear it. Its fundamentally a question of can you hear it or can't you; it's a matter of fact, a factual question, and not an ideal, fantasy, or metaphysical notion. 

 I can hear the difference, and that is a fact; I can support this fact with affidavits and it will be accepted so as a fact. This is very much like asking a person can you see the sun, and he answers yes I can; now that is a fact, a fact that he can see the sun. Much like the 'seeing the sun' is a fact, it is equally a fact that I can hear the difference.

 It's a fact that 'bigshot' can't hear a difference because he says he can't. we as a community need to respect that fact.


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_we need to move beyond the notion and terminology of 'believer' and 'nonbeliever'. Instead, we need to ask ourselves can we hear it. Its fundamentally a question of can you hear it or can't you; it's a matter of fact, a factual question, and not an ideal, fantasy, or metaphysical notion. 

 I can hear the difference, and that is a fact; I can support this fact with affidavits and it will be accepted so as a fact. This is very much like asking a person can you see the sun, and he answers yes I can; now that is a fact, a fact that he can see the sun. Much like the 'seeing the sun' is a fact, it is equally a fact that I can hear the difference.

 It's a fact that 'bigshot' can't hear a difference because he says he can't. we as a community need to respect that fact._

 

Actually, hearing a difference in sighted listening doesn't necessarily mean someone hears a difference because there "is" a difference. Someone may hear a difference due to the placebo effect.

 I am a subjectivist and yet I find it hard to understand why so many subs are loathe to acknowledge this simple logic.

 I can respect the fact someone hears a dif while at the same time accepting he may hear that dif. due to expectation bias. I also accept that there might be a dif and it may be a result of the equipment.

 For my purchasing, if 2 units are near the same price I don't need a blind test to decide. But if their are 1,000s in difference I want to know I'm not fooling myself.


----------



## chesebert

The question of "can I hear a difference" or "did he hear a difference" is a factual question and is not open to interpretation about 'whether its a fact or not'. 

 When you talk about placebo and other effects, the question is then "whether this fact was 'caused by' the placebo or another effect"; but whether that the person can or cannot hear a difference is still a factual question. And ofcourse the answer to a factual inquiry is a fact.

 We must not confuse causation with fact.


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_we need to move beyond the notion and terminology of 'believer' and 'nonbeliever'. Instead, we need to ask ourselves can we hear it. Its fundamentally a question of can you hear it or can't you; it's a matter of fact, a factual question, and not an ideal, fantasy, or metaphysical notion. 

 I can hear the difference, and that is a fact; I can support this fact with affidavits and it will be accepted so as a fact._

 

The only "fact" that you will have proven with that affidavit is that you *think* you hear a difference. That doesn't prove that you actually do. 

 Imagine a situation where there is an auto accident. Two witnesses submit affidavits. One affiant swears that the light was red. The other swears that it was green. Both take lie detector tests; neither is lying. Yet at least one is wrong.


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The question of "can I hear a difference" or "did he hear a difference" is a factual question and is not open to interpretation about 'whether its a fact or not'. 

 When you talk about placebo and other effects, the question is then "whether this fact was 'caused by' the placebo or another effect"; but whether that the person can or cannot hear a difference is still a factual question. And ofcourse the answer to a factual inquiry is a fact.

 We must not confuse causation with fact._

 

ummm, cheesebert, that is close to what I said , but thank you for restating it 

 actually if someone says they hear a dif the only "fact" that then exists is that they "said" they heard a dif. After all, they could be lying 


 And that is really the point of all the arguments: what is the cause operating when someone says they hear a difference. The only way to rule out placebo is through a blind test. Of course there are many other variables that come into play: state of mind of the listener, aural experience etc.

 And of course the results of any listening test can only say that x listeners did, did not hear a dif in this particular situation.

 Anyway, the point of all of this for me is that if 2 pieces of gear cost about the same I am not concerned with placebo in deciding.

 If there is a big price dif I do want to rule out placebo as much as possible before parting with big bucks if the difs I hear are subtle.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was not evasive. I told you that big names like that are like celebrities who do endorsements in return for money or product. When every decent cable sounds the same, why not get some high end cable company to foot the bill for all the cabling your studio when all you have to say is that you use their product and it sounds great? Besides, the top guy at the studio isn't going to have much of anything to do with the wires in the walls. They have whole crews working for them dealing with details like that.

 What you read on fan sites isn't the same as what you hear when you are sitting in the studio with the engineer. Do you really think all those sports celebrities who were on the commercials saying, "I'm going to Disneyland!" actually went?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

No, your answer was avasive .... and you continue to be. I dont care about hypothetical reasons why he might endorse a cable. 

 Once again .... 
 I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference. So, Steve Hoffman has EXPLICITLY expressed he believes cables sound different. 

 So is Steve Hoffman ignorant? Yes or no Steve; skip the double talk for once.


----------



## chesebert

So what if A sees green and B sees red and there is no other alternative way of proving either, yet both passed the lie detector? then what? Is the fact that A saw green not a fact? Is the fact that B saw red not a fact? So the logical follow up questions would be what casused A to see green and what caused B to see red.
 But at least both are facts as in both are concerete, and not metaphysical or fantastical. 

 But this, atlest, moves us beyond the terminology of 'believer' and 'nonbeliever' which is associated with non-facts or religion dare I say so - and that is simply not the fact.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The only "fact" that you will have proven with that affidavit is that you *think* you hear a difference. That doesn't prove that you actually do. 

 Imagine a situation where there is an auto accident. Two witnesses submit affidavits. One affiant swears that the light was red. The other swears that it was green. Both take lie detector tests; neither is lying. Yet at least one is wrong._

 

I believe that Chesebert is correct here and that you, Febs, are just messing with words. In the accident example what people could be swearing to is that they *saw* red or *saw* green, not that it *was* green, i.e, in a sense independent of the perceiver. If each passes a lie detector test, then one has misperceived the actual light. If you honestly hear a difference, you hear a difference, and that's a fact. You *actually* do! It is a different fact from whether there is to someone else or some instrument a difference. And it is a still different fact what processes or influences might explain any discrepancies among these. To say you *think you hear* a difference is to express uncertainty about what was heard. Otherwise, it is redundant or non-grammatical since perceiving is a kind of thinking.


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what if A sees green and B sees red and there is no other alternative way of proving either, yet both passed the lie detector? then what? Is the fact that A saw green not a fact? Is the fact that B saw red not a fact? So the logical follow up questions would be what casused A to see green and what caused B to see red.
 But at least both are facts as in both are concerete, and not metaphysical or fantastical. 

 But this, atlest, moves us beyond the terminology of 'believer' and 'nonbeliever' which is associated with non-facts or religion dare I say so - and that is simply not the fact._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe that Chesebert is correct here and that you, Febs, are just messing with words. In the accident example what people could be swearing to is that they *saw* red or *saw* green, not that it *was* green, i.e, in a sense independent of the perceiver. If each passes a lie detector test, then one has misperceived the actual light. If you honestly hear a difference, you hear a difference, and that's a fact. You *actually* do! It is a different fact from whether there is to someone else or some instrument a difference. And it is a still different fact what processes or influences might explain any discrepancies among these. To say you *think you hear* a difference is to express uncertainty about what was heard. Otherwise, it is redundant or non-grammatical since perceiving is a kind of thinking._

 

I don't think that I have any real disagreement with the way that each of you has each expressed this concept in the posts I quote above. My issue with chesebert's original post was that (as I read his post), he suggested that the the assertion, "I can hear the difference" could be proven as a fact. That is a much different assertion than, "I heard a difference." The only fact asserted in the first statement is with respect to the listener's perception, while the latter statement asserts a "fact" with respect to whether there is an objective difference at all by assuming that such a difference exists.


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think that I have any real disagreement with the way that each of you has each expressed this concept in the posts I quote above. My issue with chesebert's original post was that (as I read his post), he suggested that the the assertion, "I can hear the difference" could be proven as a fact. That is a much different assertion than, "I heard a difference." The only fact asserted in the first statement is with respect to the listener's perception, while the latter statement asserts a "fact" with respect to whether there is an objective difference at all by assuming that such a difference exists._

 

very well put, Febs


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference. So, Steve Hoffman has EXPLICITLY expressed he believes cables sound different._

 

Where, when, and how?

 You'd help your argument greatly if you provided some direct quotations with verifiable links to what Hoffman actually said, so that his statements can be viewed in their proper context.


----------



## chesebert

fact = Knowledge or information based on real occurrences (copied from dictionary)

 'I can hear a difference' is based on a knowledge, which is 'I can hear'; and on a real occurrence, which is 'a difference'. 

 Unless you like to dispute 'I can hear a difference' is not real or not an occurrences or lack of knowledge, then its necessarily true that 'I can hear a difference' is a fact


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think that I have any real disagreement with the way that each of you has each expressed this concept in the posts I quote above. My issue with chesebert's original post was that (as I read his post), he suggested that the the assertion, "I can hear the difference" could be proven as a fact. That is a much different assertion than, "I heard a difference." The only fact asserted in the first statement is with respect to the listener's perception, while the latter statement asserts a "fact" with respect to whether there is an objective difference at all by assuming that such a difference exists._

 

The semantics as well as conceptualization of all this is very tricky. The two quoted statements don't mean what you say, as far as I'm concerned. "I can hear the difference.", if either, is the one that suggests something aside from perception since it refers to _the_ difference as something he but perhaps not others is able to hear. "I heard a difference." speaks only of a perception, i.e., something heard. The speaking of the latter is all the proof necessary of the fact of it. The former claims an ability implying it is doable repeatedly as in saying "I can hear the heart murmur", and it is falsifiable since one can challenge the speaker to listen to the chest of someone with the murmur and say whether a murmur is heard.

 The problem is that "difference" has two, alternative referents, namely, the contrast of two vibrations of air or the contrast of two perceptions of same. We would best choose a convention about which is intended and use a different form for the other.


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The semantics as well as conceptualization of all this is very tricky. The two quoted statements don't mean what you say, as far as I'm concerned. "I can hear the difference.", if either, is the one that suggests something aside from perception since it refers to the difference as something he but perhaps not others is able to hear. "I heard a difference." speaks only of a perception, i.e., something heard._

 

You're absolutely right. I was typing my response literally as I was on my way out the door and inadvertently transposed the two examples. I would edit my post, but since there have already been replies, that would create more confusion than it would solve. Sorry! This is what I meant to write:

  Quote:


 My issue with chesebert's original post was that (as I read his post), he suggested that the the assertion, "I can hear the difference" could be proven as a fact. That is a much different assertion than, "I heard a difference." The only fact asserted in the latter statement is with respect to the listener's perception, while the former statement asserts a "fact" with respect to whether there is an objective difference at all by assuming that such a difference exists.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where, when, and how?

 You'd help your argument greatly if you provided some direct quotations with verifiable links to what Hoffman actually said, so that his statements can be viewed in their proper context._

 

He has a forum...Google Steve Hoffman


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He has a forum...Google Steve Hoffman_

 

If one wants to make a point, that person should provide the reference. So far, what sacdlover has posted is what amounts to hearsay in a courtroom....and it's rejected in legal arguments for a reason.


----------



## tnmike1

real or not, if I buy my ALO Supercotton dock and THINK I hear a difference, you can call it "psychoacoustics". OK, it's all in my head. No scientific proof. So what?? I'm happy. I can listen to my stuff with my imaginary-improved sound system and I'm happy, fat and content.

 So be it.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If one wants to make a point, that person should provide the reference. So far, what sacdlover has posted is what amounts to hearsay in a courtroom....and it's rejected in legal arguments for a reason._

 

In case you are confussed this is a Headphone forum...not a court of law

 But for your knowledge (and to better sacdlovers "case")

 Steve Hoffman11-17-2006, 12:27 PM
 Folks, I use this stuff in some studio settings but just remember, your home gear might not be designed to be played back with totally neutral wire. It might need some "help" in getting the sound you really like. This is where different brands of wire come in. I have a $5,000.00 loaner CD player that ONLY seems to work with the cheapest Rat Shack wire. Everything else makes the thing sound DOA on my system. Take advantage of the flavor of wire to tune your system to how YOU like it. Don't just wire it up with studio wire and expect it to sound the best it can because (for home playback) that's probably not going to happen. It's totally gear dependent, right? You don't necessarily want neutral wire, you want pleasing sound. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If one wants to make a point, that person should provide the reference. So far, what sacdlover has posted is what amounts to hearsay in a courtroom....and it's rejected in legal arguments for a reason._

 


 Is this a legal argument .... no

 The question I asked can also be answered in a hypothetical situation.

 Once again .... 
 I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference. So, Steve Hoffman has EXPLICITLY expressed he believes cables sound different. 

 So is Steve Hoffman ignorant? Yes or no Steve; skip the double talk for once. 

 We can also say, assuming Steve Hoffman believes cables sound different .... is he ignorant? Yes or no?

 What is so threatening about answering a simple question? Secondly, is there some reason you need to run interferance for Steve?


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're absolutely right. I was typing my response literally as I was on my way out the door and inadvertently transposed the two examples. I would edit my post, but since there have already been replies, that would create more confusion than it would solve. Sorry! This is what I meant to write:_

 

Febs - very good points. However, you imply that valid scientific fact be based on the absence of the/a viewer. This is quite contentious. I've stated before: phenomena and numbers are the ONLY things which are inherently unbiased. Interpretations and explanations (read: scientific "facts") are inherently biased. Once the/a viewer is involved, the whole thing can and will go haywire (if we're to understand the history of science within these constraints).

 Is "science" (the process - e.g. scientific method) a human construct? It may follow that the generally accepted "facts" validated by a potentially biased method are biased as well, no?


----------



## hempcamp

I love when the cable threads meander into the realm of law and epistemology! (My grad school focus.)

 The statement "I can hear a difference, therefore a difference exists" is not a sound argument, only a valid one. There are several reasons why the statement "I can hear a difference" may be true: you may perceive a difference through expectancy bias, for example. But you would need to prove that "a difference exists" independent of the statement "I can hear a difference" in order for the argument to be sound ("a factual argument"). 

 I'm not claiming that "so-and-so can not hear a difference." Maybe so-and-so can. But for you to come to a sound conclusion that "a difference exists" requires a bit more legwork than merely asserting the truthfulness of your premise.

 The test-that-shall-not-be-named is the only accepted way that I know of, outside of audiophilia, to determine the truthfulness of the conclusion "a difference exists."

 --Chris


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love when the cable threads meander into the realm of law and epistemology! (My grad school focus.)

 The statement "I can hear a difference, therefore a difference exists" is not a sound argument, only a valid one. There are several reasons why the statement "I can hear a difference" may be true: you may perceive a difference through expectancy bias, for example. But you would need to prove that "a difference exists" independent of the statement "I can hear a difference" in order for the argument to be sound ("a factual argument"). 

 I'm not claiming that "so-and-so can not hear a difference." Maybe so-and-so can. But for you to come to a sound conclusion that "a difference exists" requires a bit more legwork than merely asserting the truthfulness of your premise.

 The test-that-shall-not-be-named is the only accepted way that I know of, outside of audiophilia, to determine the truthfulness of the conclusion "a difference exists."

 --Chris_

 

In the end all that matters is ones own enjoyment of music. 
 I have never judged music with a sheet of specifications infront of me, neither do I use and osilliscope to determine what is good and bad.
 I use this technique.
 If I want to listen more...winning combination
 If I listen less...something has to be changed, be it program, equipment, room, cables.
 All that matters is what I like to listen too, same goes for everyone else, after all, if we all liked exactally the same thing there would only be one of each product, and what a boring world that would be


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Is this a legal argument .... no

 The question I asked can also be answered in a hypothetical situation.

 Once again .... 
 I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference. So, Steve Hoffman has EXPLICITLY expressed he believes cables sound different. 

 So is Steve Hoffman ignorant? Yes or no Steve; skip the double talk for once. 

 We can also say, assuming Steve Hoffman believes cables sound different .... is he ignorant? Yes or no?

 What is so threatening about answering a simple question? Secondly, is there some reason you need to run interferance for Steve?_

 

First, we are _*debating *_an issue here, wouldn't you agree? Your previous statements regarding Steve Hoffman and cabling are a "he said, she said" kind of thing....and that wouldn't score points on a third-string junior high debate team, should something such as that exist. If you want to argue conclusively that Steve Hoffman has concluded that cables make a difference, at least have the initiative to prove that is the case by citing exactly what he said, not simply claiming that he has said so.

 Secondly, I'm just on the same side of the fence as bigshot when it comes to the cabling issue for the most part.....just as 883dave appears to have found it necessary to "run interference" for you, by posting a good direct quotation that certainly proves your claim that Hoffman believes there is a difference.

 But I find something very interesting in the quotation provided by 883dave.......that Steve Hoffman thinks that a $5000 CD player only sounds good with the cheapest Radio Shack wire. I'd like to hear what he thinks that wire sounds like on less expensive (and presumably less neutral) players.

 A $5000 CD player should be neutral, and shouldn't require a cable that others think sounds like crap on most other gear to make it sound right. A likely conclusion is that neither the $5000 CD player nor the RadioShack cable are neutral, just that they have errors that largely offset those in the other.

 Thus, I seriously disagree with his statement that "It's totally gear dependent, right?" A proper cable should work well with any properly designed gear...and be neutral, because that's the real goal.

 No, in a strict sense, Hoffman is not ignorant (desitute of knowledge or education, or lacking intelligence) but no one ever claimed that he was. Scientists have different viewpoints on a variety of issues, and they don't go around calling each other ignoramuses. Well, not in most cases, anyway.

 I honestly don't think bigshot was referring to anyone in particular, either on or outside of this forum, when he posted an old adage regarding ignorance in general. However, only he can confirm or deny that.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First, we are *debating *an issue here, wouldn't you agree? Your previous statements regarding Steve Hoffman and cabling are a "he said, she said" kind of thing....and that wouldn't score points on a third-string junior high debate team, should something such as that exist. If you want to argue conclusively that Steve Hoffman has concluded that cables make a difference, at least have the initiative to prove that is the case by citing exactly what he said, not simply claiming that he has said so.

 Secondly, I'm just on the same side of the fence as bigshot when it comes to the cabling issue for the most part.....just as 883dave appears to have found it necessary to "run interference" for you, by posting a good direct quotation that certainly proves your claim that Hoffman believes there is a difference.

 But I find something very interesting in the quotation provided by 883dave.......that Steve Hoffman thinks that a $5000 CD player only sounds good with the cheapest Radio Shack wire. I'd like to hear what he thinks that wire sounds like on less expensive (and presumably less neutral) players.

 I seriously disagree with his statement that "It's totally gear dependent, right?" A proper cable should work well with any properly designed gear.

 No, in a strict sense, Hoffman is not ignorant (desitute of knowledge or education, or lacking intelligence) but no one ever claimed that he was. Scientists have different viewpoints on a variety of issues, and they don't go around calling each other ignoramuses. Well, not in most cases, anyway.

 I honestly don't think bigshot was referring to anyone in particular, either on or outside of this forum, when he posted an old adage regarding ignorance in general. However, only he can confirm or deny that._

 

First, this is an internet discussion board not a court house and we are not on a debate team.

 I asked bigshot to answer a specific question. I am not debating. I want him to answer my question. I dont care what bigshot was referring to. My question was spawned by his ignorance comment but I dont care if there is any connection or not. He will not be executed if he answers the question. There is no right or wrong answer.

 Once again again again .... 
 I have read comments by Steve Hoffman that he believes that cabling makes a difference. So, ASSUMING Steve Hoffman actually believes cables sound different ..... is Steve Hoffman ignorant? Yes or no.

 If bigshot is to intimidated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 to answer?

 What would your answer be?


----------



## hempcamp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the end all that matters is ones own enjoyment of music._

 

I agree with this truism. But it doesn't inform us as to whether we should or shouldn't buy cables from companies that make unfounded claims. That's what this thread is essentially about.

 If it is true that properly-designed cables have no audible difference (my belief), then you aren't really enjoying the music so much as enjoying the cables.

 My purpose in this and similar threads is, 1) to ask people to seriously consider whether they are really enjoying the music or merely enjoying the equipment, and 2) to help newcomers understand that there are many other factors that more directly and more easily (and in many cases, more inexpensively) could improve their enjoyment of the music (room acoustics, speaker placement, different headphones, etc).

 --Chris


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_.....My purpose in this and similar threads is....to help newcomers understand that there are many other factors that more directly and more easily (and in many cases, more inexpensively) could improve their enjoyment of the music (room acoustics, speaker placement, different headphones, etc)._

 

Me too. I answer as many as 50 PM's a week regarding the set up of the 0404 USB, and quite often once the new users get it up and running, they ask me if I think the $100 interconnects they have on order are going to make it sound a lot better.....or worse, they want to know if maybe they should cancel that order and buy something even better?

 A lot of noobs presume that expensive cables are worth it strictly based on price, because they think there is no way that anyone could sell expensive cables to educated/experienced audiophiles if they didn't make a huge/major/significant/"night and day" difference. My guess is that is the "meat" of the marketing plan for certain cable vendors.

 If I were a student on a limited budget and spent nearly as much on a pair of RCA cables as I did on my cans, I'd be pretty upset if they didn't make a world of difference. And by that, I mean an *unmistakably positive *difference that anyone would hear.

 I try to disabuse them of the notion that expensive cables are worth it, but not always successfully.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Steve Hoffman* 
_Folks, I use this stuff in some studio settings but just remember, your home gear might not be designed to be played back with totally neutral wire. It might need some "help" in getting the sound you really like. This is where different brands of wire come in. I have a $5,000.00 loaner CD player that ONLY seems to work with the cheapest Rat Shack wire. Everything else makes the thing sound DOA on my system. Take advantage of the flavor of wire to tune your system to how YOU like it. Don't just wire it up with studio wire and expect it to sound the best it can because (for home playback) that's probably not going to happen. It's totally gear dependent, right? You don't necessarily want neutral wire, you want pleasing sound. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak._

 

I don't know Steve Hoffman, so I can't say what he knows or doesn't know. But I can say that this comment attributed to him is lousy advice to give people. Neutrality is what you want in EVERY piece of equipment. Trying to balance color for color in every single component in a system would cost a fortune in trial and error. But of course, it isn't his money being wasted, so what does he care? If a component doesn't perform properly, don't buy a fancy wire to try to put a patch on it. Take the piece of junk back to the store and exchange it for something that does perform up to spec.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know Steve Hoffman, so I can't say what he knows or doesn't know. But I can say that this comment attributed to him is lousy advice to give people. Neutrality is what you want in EVERY piece of equipment. Trying to balance color for color in every single component in a system would cost a fortune in trial and error. But of course, it isn't his money being wasted, so what does he care? If a component doesn't perform properly, don't buy a fancy wire to try to put a patch on it. Take the piece of junk back to the store and exchange it for something that does perform up to spec.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

So lemme get this straight:

 You think SH wasted his money on Rat Shack cables because his CDP sounds better (to him) with them in the signal chain?

 Or do you think SH is ignorant because he spent $5000 on a CDP? And specifically what "spec" should his CDP perform to?


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know Steve Hoffman, so I can't say what he knows or doesn't know. But I can say that this comment attributed to him is lousy advice to give people. Neutrality is what you want in EVERY piece of equipment. Trying to balance color for color in every single component in a system would cost a fortune in trial and error. But of course, it isn't his money being wasted, so what does he care? If a component doesn't perform properly, don't buy a fancy wire to try to put a patch on it. Take the piece of junk back to the store and exchange it for something that does perform up to spec.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Eminently sensible advice, you must not be an audiophile 

 Why do so many get upset by common sense?


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Eminently sensible advice, you must not be an audiophile 

 Why do so many get upset by common sense?_

 

Because it makes them rethink their sacred cows. 

 If Steve Hoffman says "it's totally gear dependent"......that could be taken to mean that one cannot say for sure if a particular $300 cable would actually make your system brighter, even if it makes most other systems sound brighter. And that's ridiculous, if that is what he means.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My purpose in this and similar threads is, 1) to ask people to seriously consider whether they are really enjoying the music or merely enjoying the equipment, and 2) to help newcomers understand that there are many other factors that more directly and more easily (and in many cases, more inexpensively) could improve their enjoyment of the music (room acoustics, speaker placement, different headphones, etc).

 --Chris_

 

Why then do you have wish lists for equipment in your signature?

 In a lot of threads that newcomers ask for advise, there is a lack of knowledge passage from most of the key people in these debates (I include myself in this).


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Or do you think SH is ignorant because *he spent $5000 *on a CDP?_

 

Steve Hoffman was quoted as saying _".....I have a $5,000.00 *loaner* CD player that ONLY seems to work with the cheapest Rat Shack wire. Everything else makes the thing sound DOA on my system. "_

 Meaning, every presumably neutral cable that SH tried in combination with the unit revealed that the output of that expensive CDP was not very good.

 Excuse me, but where did bigshot ever say that he thought SH was ignorant?

 It generally helps to read responses before arguing that they state something different.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hempcamp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love when the cable threads meander into the realm of law and epistemology! (My grad school focus.)

 The statement "I can hear a difference, therefore a difference exists" is not a sound argument, only a valid one. There are several reasons why the statement "I can hear a difference" may be true: you may perceive a difference through expectancy bias, for example. But you would need to prove that "a difference exists" independent of the statement "I can hear a difference" in order for the argument to be sound ("a factual argument"). 

 I'm not claiming that "so-and-so can not hear a difference." Maybe so-and-so can. But for you to come to a sound conclusion that "a difference exists" requires a bit more legwork than merely asserting the truthfulness of your premise.

 The test-that-shall-not-be-named is the only accepted way that I know of, outside of audiophilia, to determine the truthfulness of the conclusion "a difference exists."

 --Chris_

 

Once again you ignore the dual meaning of "a difference" in this context. It is either a difference in perception of sound or it is a difference of sound-independent-of-listener. In the former meaning if one perceives a difference then a difference "exists." This is not an argument. It is a tautology. In the latter sense it only is proved to "exist", i.e., to be fact, if either a reliable instrument shows the difference or a valid listening experiment (like a DBT) produces significant evidence of it.

 The time honored question "If a tree falls in the woods where there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound?" plays upon the same ambiguity of meaning/reference. If you insist that only the second meaning of "sound", a vibration of the ambient medium between 20Hz and 20kHz, is correct, then you need another term for what is heard, since we all know that there are other factors making the vibration and what is heard often not tightly correlated. However, I contend that as audiophiles it makes more sense to use "sound" for what is heard and to call the vibrations the "source" or "signal" produced by the system.

 While these discussions are usually pointless because of polarized positions and ulterior motives, they are always meaningless without keeping these distinctions and terminologies clear.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So lemme get this straight: You think SH wasted his money on Rat Shack cables because his CDP sounds better (to him) with them in the signal chain? Or do you think SH is ignorant because he spent $5000 on a CDP? And specifically what "spec" should his CDP perform to?_

 

No. I think he is advising people to follow advice that he doesn't follow himself (ie: using badly colored cables to correct for out of spec equipment.)

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Eminently sensible advice, you must not be an audiophile_

 

I'm a music lover.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Once again you ignore the dual meaning of "a difference" in this context. It is either a difference in perception of sound or it is a difference of sound-independent-of-listener._

 

Discussing one's subjective perception on an internet chat board is a solipsist exercise at best. If you want your experiences to have relevance to other people, actual "sound-independent-of-listener" reports are MUCH more useful.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Discussing one's subjective perception on an internet chat board is a solipsist exercise at best. If you want your experiences to have relevance to other people, actual "sound-independent-of-listener" reports are MUCH more useful.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I respectfully disagree; I think its otherwise.


----------



## bigshot

Let's all crawl into chesebert's head and hear what he hears! I'll bring the pretzels. You bring the beer.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Discussing one's subjective perception on an internet chat board is a solipsist exercise at best. If you want your experiences to have relevance to other people, actual "sound-independent-of-listener" reports are MUCH more useful.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Yet you have never done this. You know why? Because you cannot. You only have what you hear. And you can only report words you put to that. Otherwise, you are talking ideas ABOUT sound, not sound itself--unless you post in the form of sound/music files. Or you are reporting what someone else measured or wrote about, which can be useful indeed but is a far different thing than talking about what you hear, which I much more often find useful from others. They may be misled by salesmen or other psychological influences _some of the time_ but they are not _always and often_ droning the same doctrine about how it is impossible to hear this or that based on impervious personal conviction.


----------



## bigshot

There are specific words used to describe sounds. There are also non-specific, subjective words that lead to a million different interpretations. It's always best to depend on objective testing and specific terms, rather than subjective and metaphysical impressions. The specific words used to describe aspects of sound aren't perfect, but in an internet chat board, I'm afraid they're all we've got.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are specific words used to describe sounds. There are also non-specific, subjective words that lead to a million different interpretations. It's always best to depend on objective testing and specific terms, rather than subjective and metaphysical impressions. The specific words used to describe aspects of sound aren't perfect, but in an internet chat board, I'm afraid they're all we've got.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Just in case you think this responds to what I wrote, let me say that it in no way does. You like others fudge which meaning of "sound" you intend in "describe sounds". Words to describe sounds-independent-of-listener are of a different realm than those that describe sound=what you hear. Either kind can be subjective or objective, specific or not. Audiophiles are directly interested in what they hear and only indirectly in the other sound, i.e., what you measure and quantify with instruments. One could standardize a nomenclature for verbalizing about what is heard just a much as what is instrumented. De facto there is some uniformity at headfi about this if you read reviews here. On the other hand, people describe oscilloscope patterns as "choppy", "wavey", "staccato", etc, which are just as metaphorical (which is what I think you meant not "metaphysical") as listeners words. Yes, specific words and tested results are more reliable, but that applies to both meanings equally. In contrast, metaphorical descriptions are often more communicative about more phenomena in a shorter time, which sometimes is the only practical way to go, as in a chat board.


----------



## bigshot

Sit quietly in a lotus position in the corner of a still room permeated with the scent of magnolias and envision the expanding universe extending out like spokes in a wheel from your head. Then... and ONLY then, will you understand exactly what a Somy CD-320xl transport and a Precision Diamond DAC sounds like through a Technotronic VBR tube amp and Dinglehoffer HD-2001 woody modded cans.

 Me?... I'll just download peedeeeffs of the dope sheets.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## furball

You crack me up bigshot! This is hilarious! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sit quietly in a lotus position in the corner of a still room permeated with the scent of magnolias and envision the expanding universe extending out like spokes in a wheel from your head. Then... and ONLY then, will you understand exactly what a Somy CD-320xl transport and a Precision Diamond DAC sounds like through a Technotronic VBR tube amp and Dinglehoffer HD-2001 woody modded cans.

 Me?... I'll just download peedeeeffs of the dope sheets.

 See ya
 Steve_


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Me?... dope_

 

That's about all I see when you post in the cable forum nowadays.


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You crack me up bigshot! This is hilarious! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

And for a new member here, you're not off to a great start. Don't close your mind to the audio products that will one day blow your mind. I did too when I was new here and it was unfortunate to be so ignorant, for if I wasn't I could have gotten farther faster.

 You ever see the movie "A Christmas Story" ? Remember how the bulley always walked around with his little pipsqueek sidekick? Well that's the visual I get when I see posts from you and Bigshot. I'm sure you can figure out who's who.


----------



## furball

Sorry to be so blunt, but you are not being very nice.

 And no, I don't think a fancy garden hose will make one bit of difference in the ability of a copper wire to conduct electricity. If anything, all that hot glue will actually degrade a copper wire's capacity to conduct electricity.



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And for a new member here, you're not off to a great start. Don't close your mind to the audio products that will one day blow your mind. I did too when I was new here and it was unfortunate to be so ignorant, for if I wasn't I could have gotten farther faster.

 You ever see the movie "A Christmas Story" ? Remember how the bulley always walked around with his little pipsqueek sidekick? Well that's the visual I get when I see posts from you and Bigshot. I'm sure you can figure out who's who._


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I was...so ignorant_

 

Thats all I see when you post around here these days.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's about all I see when you post in the cable forum nowadays._

 

I see more people posting one line snide comments with ten lines of equipment in their sig file.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thats all I see when you post around here these days._

 

lol

 I've been dying to use this...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Cu latter.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lol

 I've been dying to use this...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cu latter. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's pretty cool. I'd like to find a smiley with a tallboy.


----------



## GreatDane

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BIG POPPA* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's pretty cool. I'd like to find a smiley with a tallboy._

 

...this is the best I've got


----------



## BIG POPPA

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GreatDane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...this is the best I've got 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's cool but imagine a smiley sipping a tall can in a small paper bag.... Old School.....


----------



## KimbaWLion

I tend to read and not post that many times but just for my 2 cents. I have gone through 2 stock Senn hd600 cables. I said enough is enough and spent $50 dollars on the cable I have now, that is over 3 years old. I have not had a problem since. As far as stock sound over the Clau? I think there were some VERY subtle differences. I think once you start paying almost as much for the cable as you do the phones, that is for ME and I am speaking for me alone, a case where you are meeting the law of diminishing returns. 

 I also believe the people who say they hear a difference really do! Who am I to say any different??? I do not think that every sound that comes out of our cans is quantifiable so cabling matters. I am not sure it justifies the price that some get, but that is the beauty of our hobby, you have the right to pay for anything you can afford and if you think you got your money's worth that totally works for me! Everybody should just be happy and enjoy! Sorry for my long 2 cents...


----------



## kool bubba ice

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, way ahead of you guys on this one...

 With the obvious quality defects, I cannot believe that people still claim that they improve the sound? How can they? They are worse than just about any cable you can buy. This is of course delving into the *placebo problem (oooo, pretty cable, brand name, nifty logo, it must be good!). Another problem that needs dealing with*._

 

Not exactly.. 40.00 650 stock cable changed the sound of my SA5000, which I didn't expect at all, & hated it.. I didn't expect any change to be honest, so now I'm a believer that cables can influence the sound. But why go down this road.. people like you always start this crap.. Why entice the flamers.. If people believe cables make a difference so be it.. How does that hurt you?


----------



## colonelkernel8

It hurts me indirectly by making all audiophiles look like complete idiots who buy thousand+ dollar cables. You are right about one thing, it is stupid for me to even post about cables, I'll just let the masses bask in ignorance. *I WILL NEVER POST IN A CABLE RELATED THREAD AGAIN FOR THE REST OF MY MEMBERSHIP ON HEAD-FI*


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*I WILL NEVER POST IN A CABLE RELATED THREAD AGAIN FOR THE REST OF MY MEMBERSHIP ON HEAD-FI*_


----------



## nor_spoon

* Of course* different cables will yeld different results! At least for headphone cables. Don't know how people can even argue against...


----------



## IPodPJ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It hurts me indirectly by making all audiophiles look like complete idiots who buy thousand+ dollar cables. You are right about one thing, it is stupid for me to even post about cables, I'll just let the masses bask in ignorance. *I WILL NEVER POST IN A CABLE RELATED THREAD AGAIN FOR THE REST OF MY MEMBERSHIP ON HEAD-FI*_

 

No, it is stupid/ignorant for you (or I, or anyone else) to post about the sound quality of audio cables that you've never listened to.


----------



## furball

As the wise sage of the East once said, there are many shades of ignorance in this world, do not bundle them altogether... For it is of the utmost certainty that Man of this moment in time can be assured that the Sun will rise from the East the very next morning, without actually having witnessed the event... And so that same Man can be assured with the utmost certainty that the flow of electrons will abide by nature's laws no matter how other other foolish men wish to twinkle with fancy garden hoses...and hot glues...





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it is stupid/ignorant for you (or I, or anyone else) to post about the sound quality of audio cables that you've never listened to._


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IPodPJ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, it is stupid/ignorant for you (or I, or anyone else) to post about the sound quality of audio cables that you've never listened to._

 

Saying one has to experience something to be knowledgeable of it throws out a lot of science. If the human race had your belief (stated above), we would never get anywhere.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saying one has to experience something to be knowledgeable of it throws out a lot of science. If the human race had your belief (stated above), we would never get anywhere._

 

Like when the world thought the earth was flat?


----------



## meat01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like when the world thought the earth was flat?_

 

Exactly, we have tried to prove that cables sound the same, but discussion of that is not allowed.

 It would be like telling everyone that the world is flat, but not allowing anyone to explore and saying "the world is flat, because we said so"


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saying one has to experience something to be knowledgeable of it throws out a lot of science. If the human race had your belief (stated above), we would never get anywhere._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Like when the world thought the earth was flat?_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Exactly, we have tried to prove that cables sound the same, but discussion of that is not allowed.

 It would be like telling everyone that the world is flat, but not allowing anyone to explore and saying "the world is flat, because we said so"_

 

You missed the point...

 Years ago all peoples, even people of "Science" knew the earth was flat, then one day someone thought differently and actually experimented by going on a journey....the rest is history

 No one is disallowing you from experimenting, have you tried to prove the outcome for yourself?

 This is one of those things that you will have to prove to yourself, once you do, no one will actually care either way.


----------



## meat01

Columbus was probably a skeptic who was tired of hearing that the earth was flat. I haven't seen anyone try to prove that there is a difference in cables.

 I have experimented with a silver IC and an IC made with paper clips. there was absolutely no difference in sound quality. I have seen results to tests proving my theory, but I have yet to see one with results proving that there are differences in cables.


----------



## sejarzo

I'm with you on this one, meat01. 

 If I perceive something, I can believe in it.... and for that matter, I can believe in something that I do not perceive, but simply find worth believing in.....but that's far from scientific proof that the phenomenon I perceive truly exists.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Columbus was probably a skeptic who was tired of hearing that the earth was flat. I haven't seen anyone try to prove that there is a difference in cables.

 I have experimented with a silver IC and an IC made with paper clips. there was absolutely no difference in sound quality. I have seen results to tests proving my theory, but I have yet to see one with results proving that there are differences in cables._

 

You have proved my point.

 YOU have proved to yourself that there is no difference in sound quality in cables.

 Notice there isn't anyone beating on your door, no one has been converted.
 But you know the truth! and isn't that all that really matters???

 I am a vinyl addict, my wife has always agreed with me that the TT sounds better than the CD player. Last week I bought a new CD player, she now states that CD's sound better than the vinyl, I do not agree as I still feel the TT is better...so who is right?

 The answer...who cares, as long as we both get enjoyment from the music


----------



## LawnGnome

Wow, people are finally realizing this? Took them damned well long enough.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Actually, it was known that the earth wasn't flat before Columbus. There are maps from 1442 and earlier that depict a round earth. For the life of me, I cannot find one.


----------



## nor_spoon

Sorry for not reading all the posts, but is this thread about *interconnects*, *headphone cables*, or *audio cables in general*?


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nor_spoon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry for not reading all the posts, but is this thread about *interconnects*, *headphone cables*, or *audio cables in general*?_

 

It's about "high end" cable companies.


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You have proved my point.

 YOU have proved to yourself that there is no difference in sound quality in cables.

 Notice there isn't anyone beating on your door, no one has been converted.
 But you know the truth! and isn't that all that really matters???

 I am a vinyl addict, my wife has always agreed with me that the TT sounds better than the CD player. Last week I bought a new CD player, she now states that CD's sound better than the vinyl, I do not agree as I still feel the TT is better...so who is right?

 The answer...who cares, as long as we both get enjoyment from the music_

 


 Who cares? You must not be an audiophile


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who cares? You must not be an audiophile 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 Trolls that post do.... try reading the post again


----------



## oicdn

*[size=x-large]EVERYBODY READ THIS THREAD:[/size]*

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/bl...ighlight=blind

 Should provide you enough info to gather your own opinion....even if the pictures don't show, if you read the thread, the pictures aren't needed. All they showed was they were disguised so you couldn't tell the difference aesthetically....

 The most interesting point:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here's the real kicker.

*[size=medium]Only ONE Head-Fier that participated guessed ALL THREE correctly.[/size]*
 And the best part, this person did the test and turned the cables around to send to the next person in the shortest amount of time of all the participants. 

 Thanks to all that participated, and putting up with the continual delays due to business, vacations, illnesses, etc.

 -Ed_


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oicdn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*[size=x-large]EVERYBODY READ THIS THREAD:[/size]*

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/bl...ighlight=blind

 Should provide you enough info to gather your own opinion....even if the pictures don't show, if you read the thread, the pictures aren't needed. All they showed was they were disguised so you couldn't tell the difference aesthetically....

 The most interesting point:_

 

And here we go again!!!!

 They might want to rename this site to argue-fi

 Sit back, listen to some music, do you enjoy the sound? 
 Yes? you have hit the right combination for you. 
 No? try something different

 Start with the music and work from there


----------



## oicdn

^^ Well, the main problem of this thread is people are just making statements without really thinking about what they're saying. Nor are they really doing any "research" on the topic at hand, or any REAL opinions...

 The thing so interesting about that thread is the fact so many people think there is a difference, yet only ONE person in the entire test was able to guess all of them correctly, and most EVERYBODY thought the "crappy Radio Shack cables" were the best or fastest sounding. Point is, it was a TRUE blind test.

 I personally think the cables only role is to not be the weakest link. Contradictory to what I just posted? A little, but I think if you're REALLY that irked about the possibility of cable SQ, just get cables that are up to par with the rest of your system and you can and should have no doubts. There's no reason ANYBODY should have cables that far exceed the "limitations" of what your connecting them to. i.e. don't buy a $500 cable for a $200 iPod....there's a line between SQ and just being stupid...


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oicdn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*[size=x-large]EVERYBODY READ THIS THREAD:[/size]*

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/bl...ighlight=blind

 Should provide you enough info to gather your own opinion....even if the pictures don't show, if you read the thread, the pictures aren't needed. All they showed was they were disguised so you couldn't tell the difference aesthetically....

 The most interesting point:_

 

Geez that thread has been debated over and over again and there were several flaws in the study that caused many to discount it's validity. They also discussed the types of cables present in the survey. Also one test of a thoery does not a law of science make.THe funny thing is before something is typically valid from a science standpoint there are thoeries, then test then peer reviews... So neither side can claim some sort of higher ground. Nate you in one breath say READ THIS ARTICLE then you say and have said that you can hear a difference and a qualitative one. So which is it??
 What I can't understand is if you can hear or think you can hear cables and it means something to you great buy cables. If you either can not hear cables or refuse to hear cables influence on sound (if there is any at all ) then do not buy them. It's not hard and not unlike many things in life, marketers will always make claims that are a stretch at best and in this world if you beleive every ad you see then you get what you deserve. 
 For me cables will always be the last in line for share of wallet but they do get some of the share. The difference to me is subtle but there to me in my rig. I do not understand the $150 line out dock cable for a portable amp but hey it's your dollar or $500 cables for a $500 cdp but again it's your dollar, pound or euro...


----------



## slwiser

My take on cables is much like what some have on capacitors. They are always in the way at some level to hearing the music. The better the design and performance the less in the way they are to the signal. I have observed this with the various cables as well as with various capacitors using my iPod/iMod.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oicdn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^^ Well, the main problem of this thread is people are just making statements without really thinking about what they're saying. Nor are they really doing any "research" on the topic at hand, or any REAL opinions...

 The thing so interesting about that thread is the fact so many people think there is a difference, yet only ONE person in the entire test was able to guess all of them correctly, and most EVERYBODY thought the "crappy Radio Shack cables" were the best or fastest sounding. Point is, it was a TRUE blind test.

 I personally think the cables only role is to not be the weakest link. Contradictory to what I just posted? A little, but I think if you're REALLY that irked about the possibility of cable SQ, just get cables that are up to par with the rest of your system and you can and should have no doubts. There's no reason ANYBODY should have cables that far exceed the "limitations" of what your connecting them to. i.e. don't buy a $500 cable for a $200 iPod....there's a line between SQ and just being stupid..._

 


 An opinion is just an opinion...we all have them and we all believe that ours are right

 Take the time to read through this tread, and if you want, all the other threads on this forum, I remember two people (I could be wrong) that assert $500 worth of cable on a $200 source is the way to go. Seems everyone else dis-agrees with this...But... who gives a damn. So what if I or anyone else spend 20x the money on cables than on a source??? Do you loose sleep at night thinking someone might be wasting their own money??? 

 What is "par to the rest of your system?" Is spending $750 for a phono cable too much for a TT combo that retails for $12,000...Is $1.00 for a mini to mini to much to spend for a nano? These are choices only one person has to answer, why is it we all try to assert our own beliefs and values onto other people?

 This is a hobby of personal satisfaction, I can not hear exactly what you hear.

 Go listen to your favorite music on the equipment you have assembled...you are the only person who will know if it sounds right


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what if I or anyone else spend 20x the money on cables than on a source??? Do you loose sleep at night thinking someone might be wasting their own money???_

 

All I can say is that I sure appreciate the experienced hifi nuts who took the time to give me the straight dope when I was first starting out. I don't see anything wrong with passing the favor along. But it seems that no good deed goes unpunished sometimes.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Geez that thread has been debated over and over again and there were several flaws in the study that caused many to discount it's validity._

 

The flaw was that the results weren't what they wanted to hear. As soon as a test comes along that says cables sound the same, the people who loudly argue that they don't think controls are useful for their own comparisons start beating the drum for nitpicks with the methodology of the test. They require a different standard of others than they apply to themselves.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Trolls that post do.... try reading the post again_

 

Dave,
 my post was meant as a lightheated joke eg. someone who cares more about music "couldn't" be an audiophile.

 Sorry if you took offense.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dave,
 my post was meant as a lightheated joke eg. someone who cares more about music "couldn't" be an audiophile.

 Sorry if you took offense._

 


 mi bad, it was early


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And here we go again!!!!

 They might want to rename this site to argue-fi

 Sit back, listen to some music, do you enjoy the sound? 
 Yes? you have hit the right combination for you. 
 No? try something different

 Start with the music and work from there_

 

That's great for YOU. Waist YOUR money if YOU want to. Don't come on here and suggest to others that they do the same, when the claims you make are absolute BS.


----------



## Grizzlepaw

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *meat01* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Columbus was probably a skeptic who was tired of hearing that the earth was flat. I haven't seen anyone try to prove that there is a difference in cables.

 I have experimented with a silver IC and an IC made with paper clips. there was absolutely no difference in sound quality. I have seen results to tests proving my theory, but I have yet to see one with results proving that there are differences in cables._

 

Total side point but...

 Colombus didn't think the earth was flat, he disagreed about how big of a sphere it was... and he was wrong 

cite

 "The story that Columbus thought the world was round while his contemporaries believed in a flat earth was often repeated despite the fact that the real issue was the size of the Earth rather than its roundness.[37] (In fact even Aristotle, a key Classical figure in the Church doctrine of the day, had argued that the Earth was a globe,[38][39] and Columbus's failure to reach China would have meant that, had he been trying to prove the world was round, he actually would have failed). This tale was used to show that Columbus was enlightened and forward looking"

 To go back to topic though no real electrical engineer would think that cables don't make a difference in the electrical signal, disagreement is in how much of a difference they make and whether it is significant and audible.

 -Brad


----------



## OverlordXenu

I think there's another issue we need to look at. Ignoring the whole cables sound/don't sound thing, why would more expensive cables sound better? I think that's the real core of the issue, as I don't think Bigshot, others, and myself would be arguing against cables if there weren't $13,000 power cords.


----------



## meat01

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Grizzlepaw* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 To go back to topic though no real electrical engineer would think that cables don't make a difference in the electrical signal, disagreement is in how much of a difference they make and whether it is significant and audible.

 -Brad_

 

I agree. I meant to say that cables don't make an *audible* difference.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's great for YOU. Waist YOUR money if YOU want to. Don't come on here and suggest to others that they do the same, when the claims you make are absolute BS._

 


 Hey Troll...you forgot your meds again
 show me where I have told anyone to waste money!!!! 
 Show me my claims that are BS!!!!
 Get a life


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think there's another issue we need to look at. Ignoring the whole cables sound/don't sound thing, why would more expensive cables sound better? I think that's the real core of the issue, as I don't think Bigshot, others, and myself would be arguing against cables if there weren't $13,000 power cords._

 


 So you actually believe cables sound different as long as they are under $13,000?

 Do you actually read what you write????


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Troll...you forgot your meds again
 show me where I have told anyone to waste money!!!! 
 Show me my claims that are BS!!!!
 Get a life_

 

Such witty harassment.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you actually believe cables sound different as long as they are under $13,000?

 Do you actually read what you write????_

 

No, I'm saying that if cables do sound different, what makes the more expensive ones sound better? You know, it's a hypothetical statement. I also used a hyperbole as I consider a $13,000 power cable kind-of sickening, what I mean is, I find it sickening for someone to spend $13,000 on a power cable.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I also used a hyperbole as I consider a $13,000 power cable kind-of sickening, what I mean is, I find it sickening for someone to spend $13,000 on a power cable._

 

There are also people that think that compressed MP3's sound "good enough".

 .˙.

 They might think spending ANY money on headphones is sickening, too. Their iPod came with perfectly good headphones, silly!



 Would you believe them if they told YOU sennheiser HD650's sound similar enough to iPod earbuds that the price is completely unwarranted? Both the senns and the iPod buds are made of plastic and metal, and play music, right?



 Again, (for what seems like the umpteenth time) Why does your opinion of a $13,000 power cable matter if you haven't heard it? Why does mine?


 You make assumptions. ONLY speculative assumptions.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what if I or anyone else spend 20x the money on cables than on a source??? Do you loose sleep at night thinking someone might be wasting their own money??? _

 

If someone wants to do this, then more power to them. However, when that person is induced to make this purchase based upon false and misleading advertising, of which there is plenty in this arena, then I am concerned.


----------



## furball

Just for the sake argument, that a $13,000 powercord does make the music sound better.

 Then for the cost is no object audiophile, how can he live with himself knowing that the electric grid that sends the electricity to his house, and the wiring inside his house, are made of completely GENERIC copper wiring?

 The cost is no object audiophile should be replacing the entire wiring inside his house with those $13,000 powercords. Better yet, he should get in touch with his utility company and ask them if they can replace the entire electric grid with those $13,000 powercords. Now that would REALLY make everything sound better!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Such witty harassment.

 No, I'm saying that if cables do sound different, what makes the more expensive ones sound better? You know, it's a hypothetical statement. I also used a hyperbole as I consider a $13,000 power cable kind-of sickening, what I mean is, I find it sickening for someone to spend $13,000 on a power cable._


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_

 No, I'm saying that if cables do sound different, what makes the more expensive ones sound better? You know, it's a hypothetical statement. I also used a hyperbole as I consider a $13,000 power cable kind-of sickening, what I mean is, I find it sickening for someone to spend $13,000 on a power cable._

 


 How many people buy a $13k power cord? Not many .... so why worry about that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Secondly, why are you so obcessed with the expensive power cords sounding better? No one can say they necessarily will or will not sound better. You have to listen to them with your system and decide yourself. Personally, I dont care how good they sounded I wouldnt spend that much. But, if someone has the income to do so .... who cares if they are happy with the purchase. You act like anyone coming along can be convinced to buy $13k cords .... that just is not true. 

 As a believer that cables sound different, just because they do, I am not going to lose all sense of reason and buy anything regardless of expense and neither are most people. I use $5-7 volex 17604 power cords because they work as well as anything I have tried with my system. I thought the expensive power cords I heard sounded different but not better. I do spend more on IC's because the better IC's I use offer improvements over the cheap BJeans or RS types I consider well worth the extra $$. 

 Does that perspective help?


----------



## Sovkiller

Guys why don't we concentrate our efforts in trying to get a valid argument instead of offending the opposite field. 

*Skeptics* want an evidence, well where is it? I have never found one myself, and every time I heard of a DBT, audiophiles have failed miserably in proving what they were trying to. After trying a few different cables I still believe the same, and keep on using BJC, and Quails, for security reasons mainly...

*Believers* do not need that evidence, OK, good for you!!! But that does not make your opinion more valid than others...

*Respect is all about...*

 Now, who really believes that a cable is worth the prices these boutique cables companies ask sometimes for them, honestly, this person needs to reconsider and review all the logic codes he/she had, there is absolutelly no research, material, manufacture, etc...Not even if the cables were done in a factory on Mars by aliens will justify such prices...
 And there is always profits, and profits that make you live decently, or do you believe that the guys in companies that sell for reasonable prices do not make profits, just ask BJC, Outlaws, Heartland, Canare, etc...They all do, and they mainly live out of those profits...

 BTW, my suggestion, instead of spending an insane amount on any cable, I encourage you to spend them in other parts of your audio system, that will offer you more benefits, better speakers, heapdhones, DAC, sources, even on more music instead....


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's great for YOU. Waist YOUR money if YOU want to. Don't come on here and suggest to others that they do the same, when the claims you make are absolute BS._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Such witty harassment.


 No, I'm saying that if cables do sound different, what makes the more expensive ones sound better? You know, it's a hypothetical statement. I also used a hyperbole as I consider a $13,000 power cable kind-of sickening, what I mean is, I find it sickening for someone to spend $13,000 on a power cable._

 

Again direct question...

 Show me the post where I told anyone to waste money
 Show me the post where My claims have been BS

 Put up or shut up!!!


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_BTW, my suggestion, instead of spending an insane amount on any cable, I encourage you to spend them in other parts of your audio system, that will offer you more benefits, better speakers, heapdhones, DAC, sources, even on more music instead....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If people take the time to read through this thread, they will find the above quote stated over and over and over


----------



## Dorito123

His good suggestion is, instead of spending an insane amount on any cable, I encourage you to spend them in other parts of your audio system, that will offer you more benefits, better speakers, heapdhones, DAC, sources, even on more music instead....


----------



## royalcrown

^ you sir, are a winnar.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dorito123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_His good suggestion is, instead of spending an insane amount on any cable, I encourage you to spend them in other parts of your audio system, that will offer you more benefits, better speakers, heapdhones, DAC, sources, even on more music instead...._

 

What constitutes an insane amount? And please, no relativistic terms - I expect a fully unbiased explanation.


 $10

 $100

 $250

 $500

 $1,000

 $10,000

 ???


----------



## sejarzo

IMHO, anything more than what Blue Jeans charges is insane.

 Why? Because their products are made from raw cable that can pass gigabit digital data rates over hundreds of feet without error. If they can do that, it's not possible for them to distort audio frequency signals. 

 If one perceives more "detail" from another "strictly audiophile" cable (emphasis on perceive) it might be that the other cable is introducing anomalous information into the audio signal. A number of years ago, it was found that most people thought analog audio sounded better when a small amount of white noise was added.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *furball* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just for the sake argument, that a $13,000 powercord does make the music sound better.

 Then for the cost is no object audiophile, how can he live with himself knowing that the electric grid that sends the electricity to his house, and the wiring inside his house, are made of completely GENERIC copper wiring?_

 

Remember when someone's cat tore up a VD cable? It was just generic wiring, surrounded by a garden hose and metal shavings and sandblasting pellets.

 Maybe his PC is made of that same generic wire.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If people take the time to read through this thread, they will find the above quote stated over and over and over_

 

And will be forever like that, why? Simply becasue IMO it is the more logical and practical way to go in audio, and that only makes it a more generalized opinion, then, we can consider than the ones who beleive that, are not that wrong...
 It is a shame that it needs to be repeated so many times, before people realize the truth behind it, instead of going the wrong way and keep on wasting money... 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What constitutes an insane amount? And please, no relativistic terms - I expect a fully unbiased explanation.


 $10

 $100

 $250

 ???_

 

Well if you want to define an amont, which IMO is not so simple, I will tell you that there is no need of many lines, with the first two is OK...LOL...my reference point is that to spend over a $100.00 in cables, is at least not justified in any system, to call it the least, regardless of the performance, but that is just my very personal opinion on the subject, and I use as reference that if BJC, and others, can make profits out of a $50.00 very good performer cables, over $100 you can make even more, and offer a product that will have the double of value/performance, which is not, in any case I have tried, there is no need to try to get $1000.00 for a cable...

 Again that is my very personal opinion, I could be wrong as any other human being, but the only difference is that me being wrong, will not harm any wallet ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...
 Now people can go an spend what they want and feel is right for them, in cables, I personally do not care, just if that madness ends there. But what bothers me, is that after that and just as a way to feel better with themselves, they try to drag others into the same madness, that is really sad...as to be more, proves nothing...


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are also people that think that compressed MP3's sound "good enough"._

 

All things are relative. I'm sure even all of our Moms can tell the difference between the original CD and 96. But LAME at 320 is going to certainly be "good enough" for all but the most self deluded OCD sufferers, especially in a portable setup.

 The big problem with this forum is the lack of relativity. EVERYTHING is reported to make a night and day difference in sound. That can make it very difficult for newbies to sort out what's important to deal with now, and what can wait. Buying cables is the absolute least effective way to improve the sound of your stereo system, but listening to some folks, you'd think wires can turn lead into gold.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Secondly, why are you so obcessed with the expensive power cords sounding better? No one can say they necessarily will or will not sound better. You have to listen to them with your system and decide yourself._

 

You may not be able to say, but I am happy to say that an expensive power cord will make absolutely no difference to the sound of a stereo system. I don't have to listen to every wire in the world to know that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow and set in the West. If you want placebo, drink a glass of wine. It's more effective at improving one's spirits than wasting money on ripoffs like fancy wires.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## chesebert

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sejarzo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IMHO, anything more than what Blue Jeans charges is insane.

 Why? Because their products are made from raw cable that can pass gigabit digital data rates over hundreds of feet without error. If they can do that, it's not possible for them to distort audio frequency signals. 

 If one perceives more "detail" from another "strictly audiophile" cable (emphasis on perceive) it might be that the other cable is introducing anomalous information into the audio signal. A number of years ago, it was found that most people thought analog audio sounded better when a small amount of white noise was added._

 

I disagree. anything more than radioshack charges is insane! BJC's pricing are outrageous! and they are no better than radioshack...I measured them with my fluke MM !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Actually you should just use the cables that came with your equipment; anything more expensive than free is a waste.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree. anything more than radioshack charges is insane! BJC's pricing are outrageous! and they are no better than radioshack...I measured them with my fluke MM !!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Actually you should just use the cables that came with your equipment; anything more expensive than free is a waste._

 


 BJC offer better overall construction, and better materials, Canare plugs are better than the RS ones, and Belden cable is also better, they are crimped, not soldered, which is better as well, I have used both, and while sonically you maybe can not say one is better than the other, I do prefer the BJC by a good margin for security reasons...

 Well not in vane those cables are used all along the world in recording studios, all the recordings you hear have been done using canare, mogami, or belden at some point, if they were so bad, nobody would use them...

 Don't forget that in the recording studios mainly all cables, with the exception of the ones used for the instruments are mainly permanent, do you really believe than any recording studio can not afford to have boutique cables as a permanent line cables between the different parts of the audio gear, that are not movable? Of course they do, but they simply do not believe on that period...


----------



## OverlordXenu

I have to say, honestly, I like the way that BJC look. But I can also get them in any length I want, and if I really wanted to I could probably special order any connector or wire. They also have a nice selection of wire for different uses...(In-wall vs. regular, for example.)

 Plus, I've used RS cables in the past and they were impossible to get on and off the RCA jacks. And they are a bit out of the way for me.

 Actually, I have a mini to RCA cable from RS sitting here for my X5.


----------



## GreatDane

great post Sovkiller


----------



## Dorito123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *royalcrown* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ you sir, are a winnar._

 

Care to explain this? If you can.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dorito123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Care to explain this? If you can._

 

Winrar == winner.

 It's a colloquialism of the *chans.


----------



## DarkAngel

Bob Ludwig
 Steve Hoffman
 Etc
 People should stop promoting the myth that recording "professionals" all view cables as snake oil and placebo and use only belden, mogami etc cables.

 Ludwig's cable collection would blow your mind, he is an extreme audiophile and also perhaps the most respected and sought after sound mastering man in music business today.

 Cables/power conditioning can make noticeable audible difference (even power cords) for me, but they are way down the line of importance for budgeting a balanced audio system budget.......vast majority of people here should not spend much on them till the more important elements are in place like improved:
 speakers
 source
 room treatment
 amp/preamp


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to say, honestly, I like the way that BJC look. But I can also get them in any length I want, and if I really wanted to I could probably special order any connector or wire. They also have a nice selection of wire for different uses...(In-wall vs. regular, for example.)

 Plus, I've used RS cables in the past and they were impossible to get on and off the RCA jacks. And they are a bit out of the way for me.

 Actually, I have a mini to RCA cable from RS sitting here for my X5._

 

wow sounds like a rationalization to support money shamelessly wasted on cables from that snake oil site BJC, for shame for shame. How could you needlessly lead the newbies you profess to be the guardian of. You are forever tarnished my headfi moral compass


----------



## Dorito123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow sounds like a rationalization to support money shamelessly wasted on cables from that snake oil site BJC, for shame for shame. How could you needlessly lead the newbies you profess to be the guardian of. You are forever tarnished my headfi moral compass
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I agree with wanting a well built cable, kinda like buying an Omega watch for 2 grand. The Omega will tell time and last every bit as well as a Platinum Rolex. The only difference is about 30 thousand dollars. I also feel that a very small percentage of people in general have a system grandiose enough to consider anything but a 7 dollar power cord. Taking this into consideration would eliminate the need for back and fourth conversation on the topic unless you feel your equipment is in that highest tier. Long and short is I appreciate and want well built things but I don't want something merely a status symbol to advertise my station in life by showing people I can afford something that cost 32 thousand bucks when I can get the durability and function for 2 grand. I understand people who do want the platinum Rolex and if you can afford it, it is an exquisite watch, but how many people in this thread would want the platinum Rolex over the Omega? If you say you would rather have something like the Omega then why would you want to spend 300 or a 1000 bucks on a power cord?


----------



## royalcrown

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dorito123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Care to explain this? If you can._

 

Basically I thought your post was funny =/


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People should stop promoting the myth that recording "professionals" all view cables as snake oil and placebo and use only belden, mogami etc cables._

 

The vast majority use stock cables. There are exceptions, usually engineers with a certain amount of visibility to the general public that makes them good candidates for sponsorships. Cable companies market with an eye to home consumers, not professionals.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Plus, I've used RS cables in the past and they were impossible to get on and off the RCA jacks._

 

The standard grade Radio Shack cables are less of a problem than their gold ones. They all sound alike.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_wow sounds like a rationalization to support money shamelessly wasted on cables from that snake oil site BJC, for shame for shame. How could you needlessly lead the newbies you profess to be the guardian of. You are forever tarnished my headfi moral compass
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You're really bad at trolling, by the way.


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're really bad at trolling, by the way._

 

yes I pale by comparision to the gold standard that you have set


----------



## manofmathematics

Cables have always been and always will be a PART of my system. They play their roles just as any other component. I, for one, have heard the sonic differences that can accompany different cables. 

 I will always offer my opinion and recommendation based on what my ears have told me. I will never be concerned whether my recommendation leads to someone "wasting money". My opinion is only one and there are many others that side with me and against me. 

 We should all simply allow our own ears dictate what we enjoy and spend money on, and should base our recommendations on such. If someone goes for the expensive cable, so be it. Their ears will let them know if they wasted money or not, and if they feel they did...They can always return them and pick up something cheaper.

 It's not about money, it's about synergy.

 To each their own, just try to have some fun.


----------



## Dorito123

Thanks Bigshot


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The vast majority use stock cables. There are exceptions, usually engineers with a certain amount of visibility to the general public that makes them good candidates for sponsorships. Cable companies market with an eye to home consumers, not professionals.
 See ya
 Steve_

 

I am sure you correct that most mastering studio uses belden/mogami grade cables, but I recall reading *Bob Ludwig's Gateway studio* a few years ago was using extremely expensive Transparent Audio brand cables, more than 5,000 feet total of various grades.......his results speak for themselves

*Steve Hoffman* is using expensive Kubala Sosna cables, here is his gear list from his website:
Steve Hoffman

 How can these elite sound mastering professionals have it wrong if cables make no difference as many here say?

 That said I still advise people:
  Quote:


 Cables/power conditioning can make noticeable audible difference (even power cords) for me, but they are way down the line of importance for budgeting a balanced audio system budget.......vast majority of people here should not spend much on them till the more important elements are upgraded like:
 speakers
 source
 room treatment
 amp/preamp


----------



## manofmathematics

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dorito123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Bigshot_

 

Anytime Dorito. Remember, my opinions are always free so there is no return policy if you disagree with them, sorry, but at least no money was wasted on my "snake oil"

 Cheers.


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *manofmathematics* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anytime Dorito. Remember, my opinions are always free so there is no return policy if you disagree with them, sorry, but at least no money was wasted on my "snake oil"

 Cheers._

 

uhhhhh Bigshot is a user name not you, read this thread maybe and you will see his posts


----------



## manofmathematics

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_uhhhhh Bigshot is a user name not you, read this thread maybe and you will see his posts_

 

Thank you for pointing out my mistake. My appologies.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They all sound alike.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Every project you've ever worked on sounds horrible. Your best efforts only compromise the actual sound at worst - and make no difference at best.


 Your work in the movie/tv/recording industry is junk and snake oil. Your lack of skill and shoddy workmanship are a ripoff. Anyone who believes that your work provides any sort of value-add is ignorant.



 I know - and believe this, because I've seen enough of your posts to assume as much.







 Hypothetically.















 Now, how can I get away with saying this?



 Isn't this no different than any of your claims regarding cables?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bob Ludwig
 Steve Hoffman
 Etc
 People should stop promoting the myth that recording "professionals" all view cables as snake oil and placebo and use only belden, mogami etc cables.

 Ludwig's cable collection would blow your mind, he is an extreme audiophile and also perhaps the most respected and sought after sound mastering man in music business today.

 Cables/power conditioning can make noticeable audible difference (even power cords) for me, but they are way down the line of importance for budgeting a balanced audio system budget.......vast majority of people here should not spend much on them till the more important elements are in place like improved:
 speakers
 source
 room treatment
 amp/preamp_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am sure you correct that most mastering studio uses belden/mogami grade cables, but I recall reading *Bob Ludwig's Gateway studio* a few years ago was using extremely expensive Transparent Audio brand cables, more than 5,000 feet total of various grades.......his results speak for themselves

*Steve Hoffman* is using expensive Kubala Sosna cables, here is his gear list from his website:
Steve Hoffman

 How can these elite sound mastering professionals have it wrong if cables make no difference as many here say?_

 


 That is good point, specially the order stated for the priorities. The main problem is as Steve said, people loose perspective while talking of cables. I may understand that one person that have reached their max potential in the gear, and have explored all possible variables in the budget on hand, and are satisfied with the sound he or she gets, try to improve the last bit using better cables, or different cables. That is IMO understandable at least, more if you beleive that they will improve a little bit the sound, or at least make it sound more to your taste, now with a cheap setup just getting expensive cables for the sake of it, is IMO really dumb...

 Now about the other topic, I bet they could get a good recording using Canare, Mogami and Belden as well, to get a good recording has very little to do with the cables, power conditioning and power cords, this is an art, and they are good at this, regardless of the gear used...trust me on that...

 Now OTOH have you ever questioned these reduced elite of professionals how they get those cables, or heapdhones, or gear, etc...?

 I do not want to be absolutist regarding that issue, but keep in mind that in some cases, those well know professionals receive "long term loans", and gifts, from those manufacturers, just to receive endorsements for them...I really doubt they will spend any insane amount on cables, while they may still have other things to improve there, and just to improve the sound "a little bit" on the studio. Mostly they are just using what cost them *very little, or nothing*, and of course getting benefits of that...


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Every project you've ever worked on sounds horrible. Your best efforts only compromise the actual sound at worst - and make no difference at best.


 Your work in the movie/tv/recording industry is junk and snake oil. Your lack of skill and shoddy workmanship are a ripoff. Anyone who believes that your work provides any sort of value-add is ignorant.

 I know - and believe this, because I've seen enough of your posts to assume as much.

 <annoying gap snipped>

 Hypothetically.

 <annoying gap snipped>

 Now, how can I get away with saying this?


 Isn't this no different than any of your claims regarding cables?_

 

I believe you'll find the answer to this in the small teapot orbiting the sun somewhere between Jupiter and Saturn. 

 You may not be able to see it, but trust me, it's there. Your telescope and eyes probably suck compared to mine though.


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am sure you correct that most mastering studio uses belden/mogami grade cables, but I recall reading *Bob Ludwig's Gateway studio* a few years ago was using extremely expensive Transparent Audio brand cables, more than 5,000 feet total of various grades.......his results speak for themselves

*Steve Hoffman* is using expensive Kubala Sosna cables, here is his gear list from his website:
Steve Hoffman

 How can these elite sound mastering professionals have it wrong if cables make no difference as many here say?

 That said I still advise people:_

 


 The most enlightening fact on Hoffman's sight is that all the gear is on "long term loan" .


----------



## KarateKid

Are you guys talking about coaxial/optical cables? Doesn't headphone cables make a difference (like the whole hd650 cable comparison)?


----------



## Febs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KarateKid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you guys talking about coaxial/optical cables? Doesn't headphone cables make a difference (like the whole hd650 cable comparison)?_

 

No, this discussion has not been limited to coxaxial/optical cables.

 I've never heard a difference among any of the cables I've tried with my HD 580.


----------



## KarateKid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Febs* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, this discussion has not been limited to coxaxial/optical cables.

 I've never heard a difference among any of the cables I've tried with my HD 580._

 

What about all those cable shootouts (zu, the dragons, SSA, etc) for the HD650s... are you saying all those "testers" are crazy - they're hearing things? Just curious because sometimes I believe placebo is a strong force.


----------



## Febs

I am just sharing my own personal experience. I am *not* saying that "all those 'testers' are crazy," nor would I ever say that.


----------



## KarateKid

Yeah I know what you mean. I think certain cables "change" the sound signature, perhaps due to intentional faulty/tweaked design, but it doesn't mean it's "better". 

 Placebo is great, moses split the seas using it!


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KarateKid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What about all those cable shootouts (zu, the dragons, SSA, etc) for the HD650s... are you saying all those "testers" are crazy - they're hearing things? Just curious because sometimes I believe placebo is a strong force._

 

It is indeed a very strong force, and very underrated...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...

 Not all of them are crazy, and I do beleive that they may find minutes differences among them, but if you read all those reviews and descriptions, you will find as a general rule an interesting thing: They mainly agree in the descriptions of the sound in those cables, like one said this cable is detailed and warm sounding, and the rest just repeated what they heard, IMO some kind of "monkey see-monkey do mentality"...

 Sorry but it is not possible that everybody has the same opinion on a given subject, at least not so consistent, even less while we all hear differently, for example nobody uses nowadays the Clue Cables, and the Equinox is rarely mentioned here now, those three were extremelly popular while I joined head-fi, why people stop using them if they liked them? It seems that someone decided in favor of the new cables, God knows for what reasons, and the rest just accepted that as a fact, and follow the advice...curious, eh? 
 Same had happen with so many amps, the ZOLT, the EMP, Headroom amps, were very popular a few years back, HA-1 from Grado the same, the Melos, the Sudgen Headmaster, even the META42...Check now the threads...Same amps all the time, time after time, pushed down by the same guys, tuberolling, cap rolling, table rolings of the same amps time after time!!! it is really annoying to get into an amp section nowdays, everyother thread one is open to talk about the same amps time after time...I have heard them all, and it is true that they are all good amps, but trust me than not better than many others that are rarely mentioned here...yeak!!!!


----------



## KarateKid

Yeah but something as easy to compare as soundstage between say a stock cable vs an aftermarket cable should be easy to spot, if that's the case then the cable must be doing its advertised job. Might not be better but soundstage width and depth should be notice-able in A/B tests. I mean that would go beyond just "monkey see monkey do" (I'm turning into a monkey myself). 

 But yeah headphone cables are in the analog stage, wouldn't it be more reasonable that it may change sounds vs. a digital cable which is only feeding the receiver track information?


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I believe you'll find the answer to this in the small teapot orbiting the sun somewhere between Jupiter and Saturn. 

 You may not be able to see it, but trust me, it's there. Your telescope and eyes probably suck compared to mine though._

 

was that a joke? teh funnay, you did not bring.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *KarateKid* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah but something as easy to compare as soundstage between say a stock cable vs an aftermarket cable should be easy to spot, if that's the case then the cable must be doing its advertised job._

 

Soundstage is a function of miking and mixing. It can be affected by phase problems, the orientation of the headphone drivers over the ears or poor seals in closed cans. Cables don't affect it unless they're a mile long on the left and three feet long on the right.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Soundstage is a function of miking and mixing. It can be affected by phase problems, the orientation of the headphone drivers over the ears or poor seals in closed cans. Cables don't affect it unless they're a mile long on the left and three feet long on the right.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Steve while I agree that the driving force is soundstage are driver set up/orientation to the ear and it all starts with the recording process if it ain;t on the recording no mojo will make it happen, but with that said I have heard specifically the Zu cable and the RNB cable on the senn 650 and they had an impact on the soundstage with the zu pushing the center image up and being brighter sounding. I saw these as essentially tone controls with neither being perfect as they drew the cans off nuetral. 
 Anyone who attends a meet with 650s there and a few aftermarket cables should be able to test this and replicate the findings. I am not sure what the story with the Zu cable is but it certainly altered the sound in a way that was easy to spot.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Soundstage is a function of miking and mixing. It can be affected by phase problems, the orientation of the headphone drivers over the ears or poor seals in closed cans. Cables don't affect it unless they're a mile long on the left and three feet long on the right.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Steve, stop lying. Soundstage is a combination of phase relationships, signal to noise ratio, and frequency response. Therefore, noise rejection characteristics and frequency response characteristics inherent in audio signal cables affect a listener's perception of soundstage.


----------



## Sovkiller

Maybe is a matter of semantics, but what is known as soundstage is the distribution of the instruments or musicians along the space, or the geometry in front of you. Soundstage is a function of driver placement, mikes while recording, or speakers while reproducing, of course phase, acoustics, etc...play a role as well, and of course the distribution the mixer give them in the process, placing partial sounds in either channel. 

 You can not achieve better or worst soundstage with any cable, unless for some reason you create a delay in time, using as Steve said, a very long cable. But OTOH, the cables may introduce details that will make you pinpoint the instruments better, and though give you the *illusion* of being in a more specific place, and make it more coherent and focussed, but I fully agree with Steve, major changes in soundstage are not introduced by swapping cables...


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The most enlightening fact on Hoffman's sight is that all the gear is on "long term loan" ._

 

He also forgot for some reason to list in the headphones list, the Ultrasone PROLine 2500, which I know he has "on long term loan basis", and what he was going to use in some work later on, IIRC...


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The most enlightening fact on Hoffman's sight is that all the gear is on "long term loan" ._

 

so what EXACTLY are you saying with this post here are some options I thought of
 1) as a high profile audio guy and Tone mag contributor he gets gear to try for extended periods but is honest in his assesments.
 2) he is compromised by this fact and lies to support free gear

 BTW I vote option 1 having met the man


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_so what EXACTLY are you saying with this post here are some options I thought of
 1) as a high profile audio guy and Tone mag contributor he gets gear to try for extended periods but is honest in his assesments.
 2) he is compromised by this fact and lies to support free gear

 BTW I vote option 1 having met the man_

 

Definitelly number one, and I do believe Hoffman is honest, he does believe those cables and gear are very good, we also believe that, (just that probably not better than other cheaper options as claimed) but also very cheap to him...And as logic indicates it is easier to endorse what cost you very little-to nothing...But that does not constitute an evidence that he will consider these prices right, nor that he will pay retail for them, nor that they are worth the asking price, nor that they are better than others... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If I receive a good expensive cable free, or on loan, even while I'm an skeptic, I will use it myself as well, but I will never pay retail for it, not suggest others to do it (And in some cases, not even the shipping costs... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Steve, stop lying. Soundstage is a combination of phase relationships, signal to noise ratio, and frequency response. Therefore, noise rejection characteristics and frequency response characteristics inherent in audio signal cables affect a listener's perception of soundstage._

 

Why accuse someone you do not know of lying when most likely this is his honest assesment. You have a different assesment just because you disagree does not mean either of you are being dishonest.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have heard specifically the Zu cable and the RNB cable on the senn 650 and they had an impact on the soundstage with the zu pushing the center image up and being brighter sounding. I saw these as essentially tone controls with neither being perfect as they drew the cans off nuetral._

 

I can see how a frequency imbalance can reduce the center image if the lead instrument sits in a particular frequency range... midrange most likely. But it really isn't directly affecting the phase (difference between channels).

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why accuse someone you do not know of lying when most likely this is his honest assesment. You have a different assesment just because you disagree does not mean either of you are being dishonest._

 

THANK YOU! THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

 I must applaud you for your post.

 Telling someone else that they are a liar, or a snake-oil salesman, or a fraud in the context of this forum DOES NOTHING. (unless, you're just using it to make a point... hehehe!)

 Much of this discussion centers around a specific belief that specific vendors are lying to benefit the sales of their product. This presupposes that first: the offending vendors are fully aware of the "absolute" science regarding the reproduction of audio, and secondly: that they are willfully misleading people into purchasing expensive audio equipment.

 With that stated,

 YOU are the sole person responsible for determining the value of such equipment. YOUR judgements are based on MANY things which include, but are absolutely not (!!!) limited to the objective science which attempts to explain and create a value system ON YOUR BEHALF.

 As you'll likely notice, Steve (the absolutely kind fellow that he is) will not directly respond to any direct questioning of his more assertive statements (especially mine, as I am rude, uncouth, and not open-minded
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) with the exception of those that may be supported by rational objectivist (and somewhat reductionist/absolutist in Steve's case...) philosophies. This ultimately shows one of the failings of this specific philosophy, as it tends to fall apart when adherence to things like "logic" are dumped for the sake of merely finding better solutions.

 Simply put, for the rational objectivist, there is NO new.

 Steve may say that his intent is to help the poor little newbies to not respond the urge to buy expensive audio cables, but unfortunately this leads to a definitive lack of BETTER understanding, and in turn, innovation (or in this specific case, a lack of a BETTER informed music aficionado/audiophile).

 Unfortunately, we are not clean, blank slates waiting to be guided by the "wisdom of the elders". All NEW knowledge we create is dependent on our OWN critical observations and understandings which exist comparatively with our prior experiences and existing knowledge. Newness, or seeking and applying different models, is what drives both our unending desire for better audio reproduction, as well as the competition and collaboration inherent in a market economy... not to mention what is known as "the state of the art".

 NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE who has TRULY positively contributed to this hobby did so because some old crotchety/grumpy/overly opinionated dude told him (and they fully believed) that he or she "must" or "mustn't", and to NEVER question the "wisdom of the elders".

 Do yourself a favor - don't listen to me, don't listen to Steve.

 Go forth, listen to music, and let your ears ultimately decide what YOU like.

 Others may have opinions, but your bias is yours and yours alone - it is not an ailment.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Much of this discussion centers around a specific belief that specific vendors are lying to benefit the sales of their product. This presupposes that first: the offending vendors are fully aware of the "absolute" science regarding the reproduction of audio, and secondly: that they are willfully misleading people into purchasing expensive audio equipment._

 

I disagree. When a manufacturer advertises and makes claims around its product, it is required to have a reasonable basis upon which to base those claims. So, when Manufacturer X's ads say its cables sound the best because they use genuine Corinthian leather to sheath the cables, Manufacturer X must have some sort of substantiation upon which to base its claim.


----------



## Zorander

Checking for the existence of leather is easy. With more stellar claims like 'speed of light' and such, proving them (or the opposite) can prove very difficult for both sides.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree. When a manufacturer advertises and makes claims around its product, it is required to have a reasonable basis upon which to base those claims. So, when Manufacturer X's ads say its cables sound the best because they use genuine Corinthian leather to sheath the cables, Manufacturer X must have some sort of substantiation upon which to base its claim._

 

Regardless of whether or not a company uses a specific material to sheath the cables is not exactly the question. The question is (as I understand it... and I could be completely wrong) whether or not they are out-and-out lying about it and if that constitutes grounds for a "boycott".


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_YOU are the sole person responsible for determining the value of such equipment. YOUR judgements are based on MANY things which include, but are absolutely not (!!!) limited to the objective science which attempts to explain and create a value system ON YOUR BEHALF.

 Unfortunately, we are not clean, blank slates waiting to be guided by the "wisdom of the elders". All NEW knowledge we create is dependent on our OWN critical observations and understandings which exist comparatively with our prior experiences and existing knowledge. Newness, or seeking and applying different models, is what drives both our unending drive for better audio reproduction, as well as the competition and collaboration inherent in a market economy... not to mention what is known as "the state of the art".

 NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE who has TRULY positively contributed to this hobby did so because some old crotchety/grumpy/overly opinionated dude told him (and they fully believed) that he or she "must" or "mustn't", and to NEVER question the "wisdom of the elders"._

 

What point are you trying to make? That reality changes based on our beliefs?

 If so, then how come the "cable believing" reality comes to a screeching halt when confronted with an oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer or someone covering up the logos?

 I don't doubt the sincerity of _some_ cable proponents. But belief and sincerity will not change the laws of physics.

 Come on, put your cards on the table. Rent some test equipment and prove the skeptics wrong.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What point are you trying to make? That reality changes based on our beliefs?

 If so, then how come the "cable believing" reality comes to a screeching halt when confronted with an oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer or just covering up the logos?

 I don't doubt the sincerity of some cable proponents. But belief and sincerity will not change the laws of physics.

 Come on, put your cards on the table. Rent some test equipment and let's see._

 

My beliefs and your reality are two separate and distinct things. Your beliefs and my reality are (as well) two separate and distinct things. This is, in part, due to that wonderful word "bias".

 As far as renting test equipment and such... If I'm perfectly happy with my cables - why should I need to rent test equipment? I do not explicitly support any cable manufacturer, nor do I personally believe that expensive cables will make my system sound magically better. I have nothing to prove to myself, objectively or subjectively, or otherwise. I like how my humble little stereo sounds.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Zorander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Checking for the existence of leather is easy. With more stellar claims like 'speed of light' and such, proving them (or the opposite) can prove very difficult for both sides._

 

Please note that in my example, I stated that the genuine Corinthian leather affects the sound of the cable. In such an instance, confirmation of the accuracy of the statement about the material would not substantiate the claim as to how it improves the sound. Regardless, the standard is not necessarily that of "proof," but rather a reasonable basis, which is not an unreasonable threshold.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Regardless of whether or not a company uses a specific material to sheath the cables is not exactly the question. The question is (as I understand it... and I could be completely wrong) whether or not they are out-and-out lying about it and if that constitutes grounds for a "boycott"._

 

Again, my point (and Corinthian leather was my attempt at levity, which appears to have missed the mark) is that when a manufacturer makes claims about the affect of its materials on SQ, it is required to base that claim on some objectively measurable data. Reasonable minds may differ on the applicability of the data, but the advertiser is still responsible for substantiation.

 As consumers, regardless of our belief in whether cables affect sound, we should demand that manufacturers substantiate their claims. Further, resistance to do so by the manufacturer should also serve as a warning flag to potential purchasers. A lack of substantiation might not be an outright lie, but it can certainly be misleading, and such behavior in the marketplace should not be tolerated.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Reasonable minds may differ on the applicability of the data, but the advertiser is still responsible for substantiation._

 

This is a highly debatable statement, and reflects an opinion, not fact.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As consumers, regardless of our belief in whether cables affect sound, we should demand that manufacturers substantiate their claims. Further, resistance to do so by the manufacturer should also serve as a warning flag to potential purchasers. A lack of substantiation might not be an outright lie, but it can certainly be misleading, and such behavior in the marketplace should not be tolerated._

 

Demanding things, and lack of tolerance are things a free market economy is designed to handle. If there is no demand, or if consumers and investors will not tolerate something, the company will fail. The marketplace is designed to handle this, with or without your help. Otherwise, it is not a free market.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_we should demand that manufacturers substantiate their claims._

 

This seems simple on the surface... but who pays for it? Ultimately the consumer.

 It's called R&D and marketing - and there seems to be quite a rift here as far as what constitutes "worthwile" R&D/marketing spending. Add another straw to the camel's back?


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Demanding things, and lack of tolerance are things a free market economy is designed to handle. If there is no demand, or if consumers and investors will not tolerate something, the company will fail. The marketplace is designed to handle this, with or without your help. Otherwise, it is not a free market._

 

Going through the latest copy of _Stereophile_ (I subscribe) you'll notice that the cable advertisers make no actual claims in their ads. There is nothing for them to be held to.

 Suppose there was testing and genuine R&D done on cables, instead of only market research. You'd think they'd use those statistics (and capitalism) to show their products to be superior to the competition.

 Comparing products to the competition is nothing new. Go ask your Ford dealer how his F-150 stacks up against the Ram. You'll get numbers. Or ask about the refrigerators at Home Depot, or pretty much any consumer product.

 Yet cable companies never compare themselves against each other. Curious, isn't it?


----------



## The Monkey

Actually, there really isn't much debate about what I have stated. Check the websites of the FTC, NAD, or a multitude of other countries' competition authorities. The main reasoning behind the requirement for advertising substantiation is that the consumer is at a disadvantage in terms of information about the product. By making advertisera accountable for their claims, the consumer can more easily rely on a manufacturer's statements about its products. Just because we are a free market does not mean that a manufacturer can state whatever the heck it wants about its products.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Comparing products to the competition is nothing new. Go ask your Ford dealer how his F-150 stacks up against the Ram. You'll get numbers. Or ask about the refrigerators at Home Depot, or pretty much any consumer product.

 Yet cable companies never compare themselves against each other. Curious, isn't it?_

 

How about the RX-8 and it's BHP ratings? From the factory? On a chassis dynamometer? "Published" vs. "Actual"? From one magazine review to another?

 How about the Pontiac GTO and the Ferrari GTO? Ever read Car and Driver?


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Going through the latest copy of Stereophile (I subscribe) you'll notice that the cable advertisers make no actual claims in their ads. There is nothing for them to be held to.

 Suppose there was testing and genuine R&D done on cables, instead of only market research. You'd think they'd use those statistics (and capitalism) to show their products to be superior to the competition.

 Comparing products to the competition is nothing new. Go ask your Ford dealer how his F-150 stacks up against the Ram. You'll get numbers. Or ask about the refrigerators at Home Depot, or pretty much any consumer product.

 Yet cable companies never compare themselves against each other. Curious, isn't it?_

 

Check out page 94. Loaded with claims. Note that a statement does not have to be a comparison to another product to be a claim. But I agree that when manufacturers rely on testimonials and market research, the consumer should be wary.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *slwiser* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My take on cables is much like what some have on capacitors. They are always in the way at some level to hearing the music. The better the design and performance the less in the way they are to the signal. I have observed this with the various cables as well as with various capacitors using my iPod/iMod._

 

Correct.
 This and synergy is improtant. I heard myself a cable underperform on one system and shine on another. So bad results with a cable on one system doesn't automatically mean it is bad for all systems...

 It was litterally night and day...so synergy IS very important, same cable, different amps, different performance.

 Why shouldn't we boycot any manufacturer; some cdplayers are also way more expenive the others, high end amps are much more expensicve then others, but this is accepted, not for cables?!

 Last but not least: NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO BUY EXPENSIVE CABLES!


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Correct.
 This and synergy is improtant. I heard myself a cable underperform on one system and shine on another. So bad results with a cable on one system doesn't automatically mean it is bad for all systems...

 It was litterally night and day...so synergy IS very important, same cable, different amps, different performance.

 Why shouldn't we boycot any manufacturer; some cdplayers are also way more expenive the others, high end amps are much more expensicve then others, but this is accepted, not for cables?!

 Last but not least: NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO BUY EXPENSIVE CABLES!_

 

I sure as hell boycott all that boutique stuff, but that is for another thread.


----------



## vcoheda

the cable debate seems foolish, at best.

 as long as you buy cables on the used market, which means for about 40-50 percent of their cost retail, it is really a no-lose situation, for if the cable does not perform to your expectations, you can always sell it and if it does, you got a cable at a good price. with a $3000 amp and a CD player that cost a few thousand as well, it seems fitting to use cables that are at least a few hundred dollars and i have found no real problem selling them, if need be, for that much as well. 

 the bottom line for me is that if you have semi high-end equipment, you owe it to yourself to try some high-end cables as well in an effort to maximize and fine tune your system; and if you have low tier stuff, you probably don't need nordost or audioquest type cables in your system and really have no reason to be involved in this debate anyway.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vcoheda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_as long as you buy cables on the used market, which means for about 40-50 percent of their cost retail_

 

Hmmm... I wonder why they lose so much value on the secondary market?

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As you'll likely notice, Steve (the absolutely kind fellow that he is) will not directly respond to any direct questioning of his more assertive statements (especially mine, as I am rude, uncouth, and not open-minded
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)_

 

The reason I don't reply to some of your posts is because you aren't intellectually honest in your arguments. I'm happy to discuss things with people with an interest in the topic, but it's a waste of my time to engage with people who are just out to be argumentative.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree. When a manufacturer advertises and makes claims around its product, it is required to have a reasonable basis upon which to base those claims_

 

You'd be surprised how loose those laws are. Caveat emptor is the real rule of thumb. If they quote numerical facts, they have to back their claims up. If they just describe an improvement in imprecise ways that are matters of opinion, they can say just about anything.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How about the RX-8 and it's BHP ratings? From the factory? On a chassis dynamometer? "Published" vs. "Actual"? From one magazine review to another?

 How about the Pontiac GTO and the Ferrari GTO? Ever read Car and Driver?_

 

First, you'll notice that the cars are actually tested.

 The difference between the manufacturer's specs and what actually shows up on a dynamometer is EXACTLY the reason you should distrust the claims of cable manufacturers. Or any claims you find in advertising.

 Just like the auto mags, I think cables should be tested and compared against one another. They don't.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm... I wonder why they lose so much value on the secondary market?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Cause they're not heirlooms or artifacts?

 My car lost value the second I drove it off the lot. My computer lost value the second it was delivered on my doorstep. My pants lost value the second I wore them. Should I go on?

 Losing 40-50% value on a used market is not uncommon, and nor is it any indication of how much snake oil was used in the construction of an audio cable...

 Sorry, you were waiting for somebody to say, "CAUSE THEY'RE FREAKIN' SNAKE OIL!!!"?


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cause they're not heirlooms or artifacts?

 My car lost value the second I drove it off the lot. My computer lost value the second it was delivered on my doorstep. My pants lost value the second I wore them. Should I go on?

 Losing 40-50% value on a used market is not uncommon, and nor is it any indication of how much snake oil was used in the construction of an audio cable...

 Sorry, you were waiting for somebody to say, "CAUSE THEY'RE FREAKIN' SNAKE OIL!!!"?_

 

Your car loses 20% of it's value, new computer crap is maybe under 10%, pants...Clothes are actually worth a nice amount if they are resold to developing/poorer countries (clothes in general).

 But over 50% in cables?


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The reason I don't reply to some of your posts is because you aren't intellectually honest in your arguments. I'm happy to discuss things with people with an interest in the topic, but it's a waste of my time to engage with people who are just out to be argumentative.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Of all people to make this complaint! You have got to be the most appalling hypocrite of recent audiophile times!!


----------



## bigshot

Debating isn't the same as being argumentative. I'm not the one setting up the straw men and resorting to insults. I'm just talking about audio. No one is requiring you to read or respond.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

For comparison, I just searched ebay for the 5.5g 80 gig iPod I just bought at the Apple Store refurbished for $200 shipped. Several just sold on eBay for $199 shipped. An iPod has moving parts. A cable has nothing to wear out. Yet the iPod holds its value pretty well in comparison. 

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Currawong

My $0.02 on this is that high quality cables will only make a noticeable difference if all your other components are high quality. There's certainly way too much BS in hi-fi these days. I just read the 6moons review of the Red Wine Audio 30.2 ($2.5k) and it blew away about $100k of amps. Same issue everywhere.


----------



## Riboge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Debating isn't the same as being argumentative. I'm not the one setting up the straw men and resorting to insults. I'm just talking about audio. No one is requiring you to read or respond.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Right! But *you* are tendentiously argumentative and you don't talk about audio so much as your fixed beliefs about cables you never try and sales efforts you condemn a priori.

 And, as dishonest as usual by omission, you omit recognition of the issue of intellectual honesty I was mainly addressing of which you are in very short supply. I have pointed out several instances in the past.

 But I don't have to respond as you said. It's just that some of your incessant posting is particularly egregious, and the moderators of these forums are too whimpy to deal with you as they should.

 Yet it may be that I will once again withdraw along with so many others and Head Fi will be left with what it deserves....surprisingly but apparently.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *OverlordXenu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your car loses 20% of it's value, new computer crap is maybe under 10%, pants...Clothes are actually worth a nice amount if they are resold to developing/poorer countries (clothes in general).

 But over 50% in cables?_

 


 Computers? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .... nothing loses value faster than a desk top computer. A computer I bought three years ago is obsolete ... as in I can donate it to Goodwill. No one will want to buy a computer with an outdated operating system and much to little memory and hard drive space. Even of the unit is in good shape the new units have more memory, bigger hard drives, DVD burners etc... and cost hundreds less than what I paid for mine.


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Computers? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .... nothing loses value faster than a desk top computer. A computer I bought three years ago is obsolete ... as in I can donate it to Goodwill. No one will want to buy a computer with an outdated operating system and much to little memory and hard drive space. Even of the unit is in good shape the new units have more memory, bigger hard drives, DVD burners etc... and cost hundreds less than what I paid for mine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Which is why he said "new" computer crap. I know this violates my "never post in a cable thread" thing, but this obviously isn't dealing directly with cables.


----------



## vcoheda

amps - headphones - cd players, they all have awful resale value if purchased new at retail price. cables is no different. and like any other piece of equipment should be purchased used to avoid losses if one decides to sell.

 you are just figuring this out now.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You'd be surprised how loose those laws are. Caveat emptor is the real rule of thumb. If they quote numerical facts, they have to back their claims up. If they just describe an improvement in imprecise ways that are matters of opinion, they can say just about anything.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

No, they really can't say just about anything under the various laws, rules, and regs that govern advertising (and don't forget about the self-regulating tribunals). Just because a statement does not include numbers does not mean it does not require substantiation. The reason the cable mfrs. get away with it--I suspect--is that they are unwilling to challenge each other and believe in "live and let live" and because the FTC simply has bigger fish to fry.


----------



## Audio-Omega

I would like to build my own interconnects, only if I know how to get started.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would like to build my own interconnects, only if I know how to get started.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The ONLY way to go, in my opinion!


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For comparison, I just searched ebay for the 5.5g 80 gig iPod I just bought at the Apple Store refurbished for $200 shipped. Several just sold on eBay for $199 shipped. An iPod has moving parts. A cable has nothing to wear out. Yet the iPod holds its value pretty well in comparison. 

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I see. Moving parts makes something valuable... Keep 'em coming, steve!


 Keep twiddling those knobs!


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see._

 

You don't.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Moving parts makes something valuable..._

 

Actually, moving parts makes something damageable, which usually reduces its resale value. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Keep 'em coming, steve!_

 

Hang on, cowboy. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Keep twiddling those knobs!_

 

Keep listening to those garden hoses.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, moving parts makes something damageable, which usually reduces its resale value._

 

So you disagree with Steve's assessment of the reason for his iPod holding value? Or is the iPod a special case? They hold their value cause... well, just cause... ???


----------



## colonelkernel8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So you disagree with Steve's assessment of the reason for his iPod holding value? Or is the iPod a special case? They hold their value cause... well, just cause... ???_

 

I once again have to say something here. Steve was saying that an iPod is able to hold its value even though it has moving parts increasing its likelihood of wearing out and breaking, whereas a cable, containing no moving parts, still loses 50% (I think that was the accepted number) of its value pretty much the moment it is bought.


----------



## ethebull

I’ve been around audio for a few decades. Worked in and managed a mid-high end audio/video store for over 10 years. My experiences and perspective might have some value in this discussion.

 About midway into my tenure in the audio biz, the company I worked for brought in a new boutique cable vendor. We were big MonsterCable dealers and this new brand was positioned to be the step-up line for our best systems. To promote the line, “BCV” offered a one time special accommodation deal to all the sales people in our company - 85% off of retail. I had modest aftermarket wires and assorted stock and generic cables in my $15k stereo rig at the time, and though I would put myself in the skeptic camp, the chance to buy at 15 cents on the dollar was a no-brainer.

 I bought $4000 worth for $600. Two runs of speaker wire for my bi-amped rig, Six IC’s, a coax, a power filter, and three power cords. The cables I bought were third from the top in this manufacture’s line - they offer $4000 8’ speaker cables.

 Did it sound different from my old stuff? Yes. Did it sound better? Yes. Would I have spent $4k and have been satisfied? No, not personally, but I was pleased given my $600 investment. I had recently upgraded from a $500 preamp to one that sold for $2000. There was a modest fairly subtle gain in performance. I thought the cable upgrade was more noticeable. My wife’s comment was “All you changed was the cable?” She clearly heard the change for the better. 

 So what can anyone draw from my experience? Cables do sound different. The differences are not dramatic to my ears, but to those in the no differences at all camp, I can’t agree. As to various brands, their pricing and cost vs. performance, that’s up to each of us to decide.


----------



## Riboge

I can't resist one last comment:
 This discussion is typically absurd:
 Does anyone really doubt that cable prices are inflated beyond all reason? I totally believe I hear differences among various cables and that some higher end ones are better, but I would never either buy one new or for more than 50% of list. When you start getting to lists above $1500, then it should be less than 33%. This is my semi-boycott.

 But this does not imply or mean that they are worth no more than RS or BJ cables a priori. It is where there is a difference but it is less than monumental and hard to define or measure that the possibility of this huge inflation exists as people obsessively seek better among "unique" offerings from multiple makers trying to distinguish themselves that are hard to compare or objectively evaluate. I don't believe WE would have driven and supported this escalation of price if there was NO difference to hear at all. Yet, again, who would doubt that this has lead to an inordinate disproportion between price and value and to more than a few offering lucrative but undeserving cables. And who could doubt that a lot of what cable makers say about their cables is baloney parading as filet mignon? 

 We should do whatever we can to get them to cut the crap and bring the prices into proportion. This does not, however, require us to call them frauds or claim their products are worthless. That is unfair and counterproductive.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I once again have to say something here. Steve was saying that an iPod is able to hold its value even though it has moving parts increasing its likelihood of wearing out and breaking, whereas a cable, containing no moving parts, still loses 50% (I think that was the accepted number) of its value pretty much the moment it is bought._

 

Where does everyone come up with this 50% figure. After how long? Cars, boats, computers or whatever lose value the older and more used they become. At some point those items will sell for 10-20% of retail. 

 If I have a pair of IC's for ten years and sell them for 50% of the original price is that poor resale? Moreover, I did have a ten year old pair of MIT's I paid $105 for and sold for $75.


----------



## OverlordXenu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Where does everyone come up with this 50% figure. After how long? Cars, boats, computers or whatever lose value the older and more used they become. At some point those items will sell for 10-20% of retail. 

 If I have a pair of IC's for ten years and sell them for 50% of the original price is that poor resale? Moreover, I did have a ten year old pair of MIT's I paid $105 for and sold for $75._

 

Here.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Cause they're not heirlooms or artifacts?

 My car lost value the second I drove it off the lot. My computer lost value the second it was delivered on my doorstep. My pants lost value the second I wore them. Should I go on?

 Losing 40-50% value on a used market is not uncommon, and nor is it any indication of how much snake oil was used in the construction of an audio cable...

 Sorry, you were waiting for somebody to say, "CAUSE THEY'RE FREAKIN' SNAKE OIL!!!"?_


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see. Moving parts makes something valuable._

 

Thanks for your valuable contribution to this conversation. When you want to actually discuss what I'm talking about let me know.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Riboge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yet it may be that I will once again withdraw along with so many others and Head Fi will be left with what it deserves._

 

Endeavor to prevent the portal of egress from impacting your posterior as you turn to bid your fond adieu.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Computers? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .... nothing loses value faster than a desk top computer._

 

The point is that cables lose a great deal of value when you resell them. A computer is replaced yearly by a MUCH more powerful model for less money. Cables don't become obsolete. A good cable should be a good cable yesterday, today and forever.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *colonelkernel8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I once again have to say something here. Steve was saying that an iPod is able to hold its value even though it has moving parts increasing its likelihood of wearing out and breaking, whereas a cable, containing no moving parts, still loses 50% (I think that was the accepted number) of its value pretty much the moment it is bought._

 

The reason an iPod holds its value better is because it is in demand because it serves its purpose spectacularly. An expensive wire is an expensive wire.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point is that cables lose a great deal of value when you resell them. A computer is replaced yearly by a MUCH more powerful model for less money. Cables don't become obsolete. A good cable should be a good cable yesterday, today and forever.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

No more than any other audio component, especially amps and cd players .... and the % of the $ lost seems to be the issue here.

 I do better getting more of the purchase price out of cables than I do most electronics. Why? Cables don't become obsolete. A good cable should be a good cable yesterday, today and forever. But electronics wear out.


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No more than any other audio component, especially amps and cd players .... and the % of the $ lost seems to be the issue here.

 I do better getting more of the purchase price out of cables than I do most electronics. Why? Cables don't become obsolete. A good cable should be a good cable yesterday, today and forever. But electronics wear out._

 

I like how the two of you are using exactly the same fact to make exactly opposite points.


----------



## sacd lover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *monolith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like how the two of you are using exactly the same fact to make exactly opposite points._

 


 Sometimes people think in only one direction and miss seeing that there is often a completely opposite interpretation to their statements.


----------



## bigshot

A cable *should* retain its resale value, but it doesn't. See 353.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## monolith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sacd lover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sometimes people think in only one direction and miss seeing that there is often a completely opposite interpretation to their statements. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

That's true, but not applicable here.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A cable *should* retain its resale value, but it doesn't. See 353.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

So should my Enron stock...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Again, you're making assumptions based on a limited understanding... if you want an "intellectually honest" evaluation of your general position, it is the Hasty Generalization...


 High material costs do not necessarily make a "good" cable.

 Resale value is not determined solely by the material cost or complexity of a piece of audio equipment. Likewise, the sheer complexity of something may not be an indication of it's quality, or how it sounds.

 of course, YMMV!


----------



## tomjtx

IME brand new cable sells at a minimum 30% discount and it is not that hard to get 40-50% off.

 Used cable sells at a much greater than 50% off IME.

 Of course, one has to be a savvy consumer, which some would argue is not a charecteristic of cable devotees 

 Or audiophiles in general 

 and, please, before you flame, I am dissing myself as well


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Resale value is not determined solely by the material cost or complexity of a piece of audio equipment._

 

As I already said, resale value depends on the desirability and usefulness of a product. That's why iPods sell for almost as much used as they do new and cables don't.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## pabbi1

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm... I wonder why they lose so much value on the secondary market?

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Very similar to the used musical instrument market - everything seems to be worth 'half' once 'used'... guitars, drums, PA, cables... no difference.


----------



## bigshot

Acoustic guitars don't seem to lose their value. I bought a Larrivee parlor for the same price used as the original owner paid new, and it was a very good price. Sweet little guitar.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## tomjtx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Acoustic guitars don't seem to lose their value. I bought a Larrivee parlor for the same price used as the original owner paid new, and it was a very good price. Sweet little guitar.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Handmade classical concert guitars go up in value, like violins.

 The 1,300.00 Thomas Humphrey I bought in 1977 is now worth 8,000.00 to 10,000.00.

 I have always sold a classical guitar for more than I paid.
 Mass produced guitars can decline modestly from retail.


----------



## Audio-Omega

Did someone mention James Randi's challenge ?

The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge | TDG - Science, Magick, Myth and History


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomjtx* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Handmade classical concert guitars go up in value, like violins.

 The 1,300.00 Thomas Humphrey I bought in 1977 is now worth 8,000.00 to 10,000.00.

 I have always sold a classical guitar for more than I paid.
 Mass produced guitars can decline modestly from retail._

 

usually, electronics go down in price fast. Cable prices seem to be more stable but in general custom made cars etc. will go up in price over the years since they are rare and hard to find.

 Elektronics are for sale in huge quantities and every year they claim to raise the bar soundwise.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and alot of new stuff is comming out for less then the ols stuff might have cost you.


----------



## 883dave

The last set of cables I purchased was 4 to 5 years ago, I bought them used on AudiogoN. The same cables for sale today are within a few dollars either way. One set 7.5% lower, one set 7.7% higher


----------



## Scrith

No it is not time to boycott cable companies.

 But it is time to ignore all cable reviews, opinions, and comparisons that are not based on the results of blind testing. That ought to eliminate about 99% of the crap associated with cables and cable manufacturers once and for all.

 It would help eliminate all the varied opinions and impressions people have about DACs (which sound much more alike than the manufacturers and owners who overspent would like you to believe) and amps (which don't have to cost a tremendous amount of money to sound good) also, but let us at least begin with cables.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No it is not time to boycott cable companies.

 But it is time to ignore all cable reviews, opinions, and comparisons that are not based on the results of blind testing. That ought to eliminate about 99% of the crap associated with cables and cable manufacturers once and for all.

 It would help eliminate all the varied opinions and impressions people have about DACs (which sound much more alike than the manufacturers and owners who overspent would like you to believe) and amps (which don't have to cost a tremendous amount of money to sound good) also, but let us at least begin with cables._

 

I agree, ignorance is the way to go. I'm going to get up, and ignore my stereo right now.


----------



## bigshot

That's a good idea. There's no reason to listen to your stereo because either there is something wrong with your hearing, or your equipment sucks.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Scrith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree, ignorance is the way to go. I'm going to get up, and ignore my stereo right now.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Huh? Why would you want to ignore your stereo? And what makes you think ignorance is the way to go? It sounds like you are confused about what I was proposing, which was a pretty simple thing: opinions and claims about cables (and, perhaps, other stereo components) that aren't based on blind testing are completely worthless. If you adhered to this basic principle, it wouldn't matter how much cable companies are charging for their products, because you wouldn't be buying them unless it could be objectively determined that they actually sound better than a much less expensive alternative.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Huh? Why would you want to ignore your stereo? And what makes you think ignorance is the way to go? It sounds like you are confused about what I was proposing, which was a pretty simple thing: opinions and claims about cables (and, perhaps, other stereo components) that aren't based on blind testing are completely worthless. If you adhered to this basic principle, it wouldn't matter how much cable companies are charging for their products, because you wouldn't be buying them unless it could be objectively determined that they actually sound better than a much less expensive alternative._

 

Your post suggests that we should ignore everything (especially opinions) that hasn't been blind tested, correct?

 Well, none of the components in my rig have been blind tested (to my knowledge). So in keeping with rigorous ignorance, I attempted to ignore my own unverified opinion that "I enjoy how music sounds while playing thru my stereo".


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a good idea. There's no reason to listen to your stereo because either there is something wrong with your hearing, or your equipment sucks.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

I suppose I could fix both of those problems with some liberal EQ'ing, right?


----------



## jilgiljongiljing

Poke both your eyes out ppl, then you would be blind testing all your equipment all the time!

 Cheers


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a good idea. There's no reason to listen to your stereo because either there is something wrong with your hearing, or your equipment sucks.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

PWNED!

 Seriously Yota, I don't see how you can hear any difference between cables with your mom yelling at you down the basement stairs.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yotacowboy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I suppose I could fix both of those problems with some liberal EQ'ing, right?_

 

Q tips!

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Audio-Omega* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Did someone mention James Randi's challenge ?

The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge | TDG - Science, Magick, Myth and History_

 

You don't need James Randi to run a test.

 I don't see why a cable company doesn't pick one of hundreds of research universities and have the electrical engineering and psychology departments conduct some tests.

 That would have heaps of credibility. But in more than 20 years of controversy, this has never happened.

 Nor has much of any kind of test, electrical, listening or otherwise.

 I think the only people who believe in cables are the ones who buy them.


----------



## sejarzo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I don't see why a cable company doesn't pick one of hundreds of research universities and have the electrical engineering and psychology departments conduct some tests.

 That would have heaps of credibility. But in more than 20 years of controversy, this has never happened.

 Nor has much of any kind of test, electrical, listening or otherwise.

 I think the only people who believe in cables are the ones who buy them._

 

There are many ways that one could set out to prove that there is or is not a meaningful difference........but it might not be a profitable move for a typical cable company that, AFAIC, depends more on folklore and word of mouth versus quantifiable results.

 As far as credibility goes......flat-earthers will always believe nothing more than their perceptions, thus the Earth must be flat, and any evidence that it's a sphere is faked/rigged/not applicable, or whatever.


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You don't need James Randi to run a test.

 I don't see why a cable company doesn't pick one of hundreds of research universities and have the electrical engineering and psychology departments conduct some tests.

 That would have heaps of credibility. But in more than 20 years of controversy, this has never happened.

 Nor has much of any kind of test, electrical, listening or otherwise.

 I think the only people who believe in cables are the ones who buy them._

 

I also would love to see some testing as you described, but an adequate and well-controlled trial probably would be more expensive than most companies would want to shell out, especially given the uncertainty of the outcome.

 EDIt: just noticed sjarzo's post and agree, there does not seem to be much incentive at the moment to conduct such a study.


----------



## tozz

I don't know why I read through this entire thread... But what's up with all the "there's no blind tests being made". I remember reading at least 10-20 tests on cables back when I was buying Hi-Fi (a Swedish magazine).

 They all concluded a difference in sound. Judging from this thread they all were complete idiots on drugs, bought by companies or ignorant audiophiles' that lacks a degree in physics.

 I am sure someone will tell me which is true, without having read any of the articles or even knowing if what I say is based on fact or fiction.


----------



## edstrelow

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Huh? Why would you want to ignore your stereo? And what makes you think ignorance is the way to go? It sounds like you are confused about what I was proposing, which was a pretty simple thing: opinions and claims about cables (and, perhaps, other stereo components) that aren't based on blind testing are completely worthless. If you adhered to this basic principle, it wouldn't matter how much cable companies are charging for their products, because you wouldn't be buying them unless it could be objectively determined that they actually sound better than a much less expensive alternative._

 

I get real tired of people like you who don't read the instructions in this forum to not discuss this topic.


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know why I read through this entire thread... But what's up with all the "there's no blind tests being made". I remember reading at least 10-20 tests on cables back when I was buying Hi-Fi (a Swedish magazine).

 They all concluded a difference in sound. Judging from this thread they all were complete idiots on drugs, bought by companies or ignorant audiophiles' that lacks a degree in physics.

 I am sure someone will tell me which is true, without having read any of the articles or even knowing if what I say is based on fact or fiction._

 

Please provide a link or citation to said swedish tests.


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *edstrelow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I get real tired of people like you who don't read the instructions in this forum to not discuss this topic._

 

Waaaaaaaah. Mom - Scrith's breaking the rules.

 Seriously, that rule is what makes this topic so frustrating. The fact that we are forbidden from discussing this issue using the methodology most likely to provide a definitive answer is mystifying. I suppose, with the number of relativists (or anti-objectionists, if you will) as members, and cable companies as sponsors, that this is understandable and unavoidable.


----------



## Tgun5

We should really be boycotting WalMart


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *terriblepaulz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Waaaaaaaah. Mom - Scrith's breaking the rules.

 Seriously, that rule is what makes this topic so frustrating. The fact that we are forbidden from discussing this issue using the methodology most likely to provide a definitive answer is mystifying. I suppose, with the number of relativists (or anti-objectionists, if you will) as members, and cable companies as sponsors, that this is understandable and unavoidable._

 

This is why the Mods were to set up another cable thread.

 Waiting.....

 Waiting.....

 Waiting.....


----------



## Scrith

Yes, as soon as there is an objective cable forum, I'll quickly move there and forget this one forever. But until that time, those of us who want to improve our system without relying on random opinions that are influenced by things like how somebody was feeling on that particular day, how exciting the manufacturer's claims sound, or the enthusiasm with which the dude next door brags about his new $1000 cables are going to complain about long, glowing, detailed reviews from people that failed to even attempt a simple blind test.


----------



## bigshot

A separate forum would just result in the same sort of threads occurring in both. It would double it.

 It isn't forbidden to discuss the *results* of scientific testing, only the particulars of the *methodology*. You can post a comment like, "a peer reviewed scientific journal tested cables under controlled conditions and found that there was no perceptible difference". You just can't enter into a long and protracted debate about what the best way to control a comparison test like this might be. And there really isn't much point debating that, because it's pretty obvious what the best method is. It's standard procedure in most scientific comparison tests of perception.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## tozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *terriblepaulz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please provide a link or citation to said swedish tests._

 

The magazine doesn't show any articles online, but I'm heading home soon so if I get a chance browse through the boxes I'll take a picture or two, fair enough?


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The magazine doesn't show any articles online, but I'm heading home soon so if I get a chance browse through the boxes I'll take a picture or two, fair enough?_

 

Please do.


----------



## terriblepaulz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You just can't enter into a long and protracted debate about what the best way to control a comparison test like this might be. And there really isn't much point debating that, because it's pretty obvious what the best method is. It's standard procedure in most scientific comparison tests of perception._

 

Which makes the prohibition on this forum mysterious. Not to get all tin-foil-hat on y'all, but it makes me wonder whose interests are being protected. It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that open debate is being stifled to avoid offending certain MOTs.


----------



## strangedaze39

I like building my own cables if I can, but some cables I rather just buy. Alot of times you can find well built cables for a good price. 

 I don't see why you want to boycott cable company's, if they're customers they will always be around, and it's kind of silly to try to change people feelings about cables.

 I see were you guys are coming from but their should be more important things to boycott then this.


----------



## mark_h

I love the scientific placebosonic benefit my expensive cables give to my systems, they counter the invasive, cyniseismic and negative white noise I hear most of the day.


----------



## nick_charles

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mark_h* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love the scientific placebosonic benefit my expensive cables give to my systems, they counter the invasive, cyniseismic and negative white noise I hear most of the day._

 

Get a dog !, best way to deal with normal human misery and daily stresses, however naff my day is I am always heartened by seeing me dogs when I get home - cheaper than six thousand quid of speaker cable and you cant take speaker cable for a walk


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *terriblepaulz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Waaaaaaaah. Mom - Scrith's breaking the rules.

 Seriously, that rule is what makes this topic so frustrating. The fact that we are forbidden from discussing this issue using the methodology most likely to provide a definitive answer is mystifying. I suppose, with the number of relativists (or anti-objectionists, if you will) as members, and cable companies as sponsors, that this is understandable and unavoidable._

 


 That methodology provides statistical relevance. that's it. don't confuse statistical relevance with a definitive answer.

 Also, if you've got problems with the anti-DBT "rule" in place here, why not take it up with the folks who can actually do something about it?


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nick_charles* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Get a dog !, best way to deal with normal human misery and daily stresses, however naff my day is I am always heartened by seeing me dogs when I get home - cheaper than six thousand quid of speaker cable and you cant take speaker cable for a walk 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

But you could use speaker cable as leashes. Single run for one dog, Bi-wire for two, Tri-wire for three.

 Ah a dual purpose at last


----------



## DarkAngel

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am sure you correct that most mastering studio uses belden/mogami grade cables, but I recall reading *Bob Ludwig's Gateway studio* a few years ago was using extremely expensive Transparent Audio brand cables, more than 5,000 feet total of various grades.......his results speak for themselves

*Steve Hoffman* is using expensive Kubala Sosna cables, here is his gear list from his website:
Steve Hoffman

 How can these elite sound mastering professionals have it wrong if cables make no difference as many here say?_

 

Saw this article at Audiogon where George Lucas Skywalker Sound using MIT cables for sound studio:
Skywalker Sound
 Another example of sound professionals that have it all wrong according to the "expert" anti cable crowd here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 MIT actually tires to improve sound with thier various levels of boxes built into cables, so not really a pure cable design.


----------



## Dorito123

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saw this article at Audiogon where George Lucas Skywalker Sound using MIT cables for sound studio:
Skywalker Sound
 Another example of sound professionals that have it all wrong according to the "expert" anti cable crowd here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 MIT actually tires to improve sound with thier various levels of boxes built into cables, so not really a pure cable design._

 

How much did MIT charge for that install? Being able to make that claim might just be worth a free install or at least a huge discount,,,right?


----------



## jp11801

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dorito123* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much did MIT charge for that install? Being able to make that claim might just be worth a free install or at least a huge discount,,,right?_

 

is it just me or does anyone else find it funny that people that complain about unproven claims by cable makers have no problem making claims/inferences that are unproven as well. Maybe you can come back with proof before you put crap out there.


----------



## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jp11801* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is it just me or does anyone else find it funny that people that complain about unproven claims by cable makers have no problem making claims/inferences that are unproven as well. Maybe you can come back with proof before you put crap out there._

 


 Burden of proof lies with the party making the affirmative claim.

 Hence why you can't logically say "blue eyes mean your the devil, if you don't believe it, prove i'm wrong"


----------



## The Monkey

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *DarkAngel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Saw this article at Audiogon where George Lucas Skywalker Sound using MIT cables for sound studio:
Skywalker Sound
 Another example of sound professionals that have it all wrong according to the "expert" anti cable crowd here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 MIT actually tires to improve sound with thier various levels of boxes built into cables, so not really a pure cable design._

 

Please remember that regardless of one's position concerning cables, user testimonials do not substantiate advertising claims. That doesn't mean the user is lying; it simply means that it is not claim substantiation as that term is used for advertising purposes.

 I think this entire debate is kind of odd. I would expect that both camps would want the most information possible in order to make an informed decision as a consumer. So why would testing be a bad thing? Hell, I think my Cardas Senn cable makes a difference, but I have no idea if that's because of placebo effect or if it actually makes a difference. Regardless, I _think_ I hear a difference. But I still wouldn't mind being disproven; I would just find it fascinating to see if a well-controlled study could be done to provide some evidence one way or the other.


----------



## yotacowboy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *The Monkey* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think this entire debate is kind of odd. I would expect that both camps would want the most information possible in order to make an informed decision as a consumer. So why would testing be a bad thing? Hell, I think my Cardas Senn cable makes a difference, but I have no idea if that's because of placebo effect or if it actually makes a difference. Regardless, I think I hear a difference. But I still wouldn't mind being disproven; I would just find it fascinating to see if a well-controlled study could be done to provide some evidence one way or the other._

 

Indeed, and this is where caveat emptor takes precedence. If one believes that the objective measurements of a cable fully explain and establish its value, then so be it. If one, on the other hand, believes that the subjective experiences of a cable fully explain and establish its value, then likewise, so be it. Neither belief can be proven satisfactorily to either side of the debate - but if one keeps an open mind and understands that reality resides in both, and not *just* one or the other, better decisions can be made as far as esoteric, niche market audio gear goes.

 Seeking more information is never a bad idea, but claiming that objective data outright trumps subjective data (and vice a versa) is ignorant.

 Claiming DBT's or pure unsubstantiated opinions will provide a definitive answer (to anything!) is even more shortsighted.

 further, since *most* of us don't have a slew of test gear to substantiate any manufacturers claims per the specific measurements of any device, but do have ears, if you buy what sounds better while being aware of the potentially biased measurements, marketing and advertising hype, etc., you might make decisions which keep you from falling victim to audiophilia nervosa.

 Hence:

 your.

 milage.

 may.

 vary.

 The person who claims to have ALL the answers is the most suspect, IMHO. Knowing and believing that you don't know is a very powerful testament to character.


----------



## Scrith

You're right, when it comes to my own ears, I learn a lot about cables based on both blind tests and long-term listening tests.

 In particular I'm thinking of a case where I couldn't really find a significant difference between two cables in a blind test, but left the new cable installed for a couple of weeks and eventually heard something, a small section of a song with a lot of drums, that seemed to sound different to me. I went back to blind testing, using this part of the song with the drums. I could hear a slight difference. I wasn't really certain which one sounded better, however (another fun part of blind testing...differences are not necessarily positive/negative, whereas in non-blind testing the views tend to be much more polarized...mind games at work again!).

 That being said, *any comparisons/descriptions of something like cables that are written based on entirely subjective impressions are completely worthless to me.* Anybody who has done blind testing will probably understand why. Anybody who has not (and cares about this subject) will probably dispute that standing, as the inexperienced often want to do about things they haven't personally tried. I highly encourage you to try it and learn for yourself the value of blind testing...once you have, I think you'll understand its importance.


----------



## Telynau

Well, one thing we should all agree on is that low resistance, capacitance and inductance are good, as are high quality shielding, robust physical connections and strong construction (allowing hundreds of connections and disconnections without signal degradation). All of which are why I use Blue Jeans cables ($32/meter) on my Audio Research preamp ($4K) and McIntosh tube amps (3K/5K). All of the nuances of different recordings and different front ends (e.g., DAC1 USB versus Wavelength Audio Cosecant v3) are very easy to hear. Regards, James


----------



## tarquineous

I agree too that the asking price is simply price gouging.
 Many of the high priced cables are very good. The crooks know it, and that's when they raise the price. Then another catches on.... then another. Then they wonder why business is bad.
 But please, let's not buy Radio Shack. They fall apart and they are made in China and Taiwan. Try to keep our money here.
 E-mail the companies in question and tell them about their prices in a straight forward way.
 That's one step in the right direction.


----------



## d.phens

I think whatever any logic or thourough tests might reveal, those who want to believe will still buy the cables or medication from Laboratoires Boiron. The amount of potential customers deterred is negligible. All those believers take that so seriously I don't even dare cables are nonsense. All I know is that so many popular brands use snakeoil in hi-fi... On one side there are true pioneers, innovators. On the other side there's a brand pushed forward by marketing inventing new phrases which sound so real nobody will waste his time to decipher what the 'facts' mean. I won't name any. But still Grasone and Ultrado and many others sound pretty good so the quality of their products is indisputable. Oooh, I've just named some... How will those brands explain you something that sells for 10 times the price of their entry level product is just a tiny bit better and their whole product line is using the 80% of the same basic components everywhere? How will they explain there's no R&D cost behind their more expensive product compared to their cheaper one, just a little more quality control, nicer packaging and all the breeze of luxury...
 Think of it as of a form of sponsorship. If you're rich enough, just spend your money on that if it makes you happy. There will be more people happy to spend their time in the garden or restoring a vintage Beetle or perhaps even people who'd be unemployed if nobody bought that product.

 If I were to fight any company it would be those huge international molochs who dictate what you eat and what OS you use and what you can do with the music you compose and perform yourself, introducing the same grim grey dirty mainstream fog into every culture they infect, controlling the governments, politics and being so powerful in forcing the users to become dependend on them, that no state can afford to stop their monopoly!


----------



## Juaquin

I'm not going to claim to be an expert, but I just finished a course on transmission lines so this seems like an appropriate time to make a comment.

 For lengths common in audio (0-3 meters, say) and the relatively low wavelength of the signal (compared to something like a digital line), you aren't going to see much difference in cables, except for the quality in their construction. Factors like the material and geometry of the cable also aren't going to cause much degradation - the difference in characteristic impedance of copper/silver/gold and wound/coax/etc at these lengths is negligible as well. The best quality cable would match the characteristic impedance to the impedance of the load (thereby eliminating reflected waves which cause degradation), but since the load of all speakers/phones is different, the cable would only be best for one set.

 So really, the only thing I would worry about in this type of cable is the quality of construction (even the best cables will be killed by a bad solder joint), and maybe to an extent good material (don't need silver, but at least make sure it's good copper, not scrap). Spending hundreds of dollars on a cable is ridiculous. It only costs those companies pennies on the dollar to produce them, and there's almost no "development" costs on something like a cable.


----------



## Juaquin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Uncle Erik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't see why a cable company doesn't pick one of hundreds of research universities and have the electrical engineering and psychology departments conduct some tests._

 

This actually sounds like a great idea for an inter-disciplinary research project, thanks. Might have to bring in the bio-engineers as well to have them test (quantitatively) the definition of the human ear. Sorry if this violates the whole "no discussion of methods" thing, I just think it's a good idea for research.


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## Champ04

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tarquineous* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree too that the asking price is simply price gouging.
 Many of the high priced cables are very good. The crooks know it, and that's when they raise the price. Then another catches on.... then another. Then they wonder why business is bad._

 


 Let me start by saying that I'm jumping into this thread late. And I dont have the time or inclination to read 41 pages of people arguing in circles.
 But, I do have the inclination to throw my own 0.02 in! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The premise of the thread is nonsense to begin with. Boycotting a company based on price? Seriously? Thats just a mental trick to allow one's self to justify not buying something they wouldnt have baught in the first place.
 Like it or not, we live in a free market society. (though,for how much longer, nobody knows.) And in a free market society people who manufacture goods are free to set the price anywhere they want. And if some one were inclined to pay that price then, between the two, it was a fair price. Nobody elses opinion matters. It doesnt need have anything to do with parts cost, or R&D, or anything that would seem "fair" to a scientist or engineer. So long as there are people willing to pay the price then the price is "fair" to someone. If no one wants to pay the price then either the price must come down or the nitwhit goes out of business. 
 This is why the quote I reference above caught my attention. Nobody producing extravagently priced cables are wondering why business is bad because its not bad. And if it were, they're not going to be around long anyway. But look at the ones selling the 5 figure cables for example (Nordost, Tara Labs, MIT, Transparent, Sunny, Audioquest, etc etc.) None of those companies are hurting for sales. I dont know about all of them, but I know that Nordost's silly priced Odin cable is still backordered a year after introduction. For those not up to speed on economics, backordered status equates with high demand. Good luck boycotting that.

 Extravagent pricing is nothing exclusive to cables. I personally think Lamm electronics is way overpriced. You look at their ML2 tube amp sitting next to a B.A.T. Vk-150SE and you dont even have to be an electrical engineer to see that based on parts alone the B.A.T. is "worth" far more. And yet the Lamm is more than twice as expensive AND it sells. Dont even get me started on that Shindo crap out of Japan. And I'm sorry if anyone reading this owns or loves Shindo, but there is no way on earth its worth the price tag, especially not based on sound quality. Not to my ear. But it is to my neighbor. And he swears by it. So, Shindo continues to sell to people like him and others. And good for them.

 Outside of audio things get even wackier. Heck, my grandparents love antiquing. That's one that really boggles my mind. There isnt even the pretense of new technology or performance. To me, its someone else's old crap and once you have it all its going to do is sit on a shelf and look "pretty". That is, so long as you keep dusting the thing. You dont like the price of cables? Go watch Antiques Roadshow sometime. You may feel better. 

 Like it or not, the extreme high end of audio has become a hobby of the rich. People who buy Nordost Odin interconnects are the same people who buy a Philippe Dufour watch. It tells time worse than a digital watch from Wallmart, but there is exclusivity to it. This isnt to say that the Nordost sounds worse than Blue Jeans cable. I happen to think it is definitely superior. But not enough for me to spend the $$$ on it. Thought the cables I do own are not cheap in any sense of the word.

 I worked in high end retail in my latter college days. And in my estimation fully half of the high end community purchase based solely on bragging rights. To me, these people wouldnt know the sound of true live music if it bit them on the arse. But, like it or not, they help to sustain the drive for better sound. That way those of us who are seeking the absolute sound can continue our quest. I hated to deal with those people because I had to set up their silly priced systems that hurt my ears to listen to. And I had to do it often because they were never saitisfied. (no wonder) Not so long as their neighbor found something newer and cooler. But it kept the doors open. And it led me to products that did sound good to me. And some of that stuff IS very expensive. But, to me, its worth the asking price. I didnt complain about pricing in my poor college days. I found ways to make and save for the stuff I really wanted.

 Anyway, back to the premise of the thread. Boycotting is a stupid thing to begin with. Appearantly some 60's leftovers never figured that out. But I think it laughable to even suggest boycotting anything in high end audio. What are you going to do after that, boycott Lamborghini? Good luck.

 Bottom line, if you dont first believe that cables make a difference then all you are doing by actively dogging the prices is playing games. And if you are seriously upset that you cant afford the ultra expensive cables that you lust after you actually have greater problems because the cables are the icing on the cake in the audio chain. Your time would be better spent boycotting the electronics that you also cant afford. Thats where the larger differences are anyway.
 OR, you can do what I did, and save up for them. Trust me, having to save money for such expensive stuff will weed out the posers. When it really comes down to it, you arent going to spend that hard earned dough on something that doesnt cut it.


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## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Champ04* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But look at the ones selling the 5 figure cables for example (Nordost, Tara Labs, MIT, Transparent, Sunny, Audioquest, etc etc.) None of those companies are hurting for sales. I dont know about all of them, but I know that Nordost's silly priced Odin cable is still backordered a year after introduction. For those not up to speed on economics, backordered status equates with high demand. Good luck boycotting that._

 

First, how do you know the companies aren't hurting for sales? Unless you have access to their books, you don't really know. Neither do companies advertise that they're in poor shape - no one wants to buy from a company in trouble.

 Second, being backordered does not necessarily mean strong demand.

 You might not know this, but artificial lines and "high demand" are common marketing tools. I think it was in Poland where Apple _paid_ people to wait in line for the 3G iPhone. Why? To make it look like a hotter product. Same reason there are lineups outside the Cheesecake Factory, Outback, and some other restaurants. Most of the time, they could seat and serve everyone as they came in.

 But a line intensifies desire and makes it appear to others that they are in high demand.

 The marketers know this. They create the lines on purpose. False shortages are a very, very common method of marketing.

 Oh, and with the economy the way it is, you're going to see cable sales plummet and many of these companies fail. Cheap cables actually work - there's no denying it.


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## Gberg

well, to be honest. A lot of restaurants don't seat to capacity due to the amount of staff they have on duty.
 I doubt its an image thing.
 But I still see your point regarding Apple making people wait for the iphone


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## Champ04

Um, well, I know because I have many close personal contacts inside all facets of the industry. Does that satisfy your question?

 Or maybe you could just look and see that all the companies I named have been around and showed no sign of going anywhere for at least ten years.

 And you are dead wrong on the economy effecting anything. Wilson Audio, for example has consistently shown an increase in sales even during economic slow times. And, yes, their books are open to certain people.

 I'm guessing you dont have the money to spend on $20k cables. But if you did you would better understand that economics dont effect all income levels equally.

 Oh, and you also dont seem to be aware of the fact that Japan (and increasingly Korea and China) buy up a ton of this stuff regardless of the North American economy.
 So your fantasy of these companies going under anytime soon is a pipe dream.
 Just sayin.


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