# PC to Mac:  My Not-So-Genius Switch



## jude

[size=medium]*PC to Mac: My Not-So-Genius Switch*
[/size]





With the exception of a three-year love affair with Apple’s infamous Newton, I have been a Windows guy since switching to a PC from an Apple //e some 20+ years ago. Lately, with my Dell laptop’s CPU’s lonely single core becoming more and more of a performance bottleneck, I decided it was time to replace the ol' Dell Inspiron. Given that I’ve been interested for quite some time in making the move to Mac, I figured now was as good a time as any to make my new laptop a MacBook Pro. (I do have some experience using the Macs of friends and relatives, so this wasn’t a blind switch.) As it turns out, going from PC to Mac hasn't been a bed of roses for me, mostly due to issues of hardware.

The recent release of what is being called the *“unibody” MacBooks* seemed well-timed for me, as they represented the latest major update of the venerable MacBook line, and are very innovative in their case designs, the main chassis being carved from a single block of aluminum. This unibody construction seemed to me to be a great way to make an enormously rigid, durable chassis. One thing gave me a bit of pause, and that was the glossy glass screen that inevitably gets brought up in the discussion of these new MacBooks. I decided to see past my fears of the screen gloss, and committed to making the move to Mac.

I decided to custom order (online) the fastest, largest-hard-drive version of the unibody MacBook Pro currently available. (I’ll hereafter refer to the MacBook Pro as the “MBP.”) In case you don’t already know this and you’re considering going Mac, know that Macs are generally _substantially_ more expensive (per unit performance) than competitively spec’d Windows laptops. To my mind, this general price difference can be called the price you pay for the great operating system that is Mac OS X, and it _is_ a superior user environment, in my opinion. There is no arguing, however, the sticker shock that some might feel (myself included) when it's time to hit "add to cart"--my unibody MBP came to almost $3,500, including the $349 AppleCare Protection Plan (and sales tax).

As anyone who has purchased an Apple product can tell you--from the tiny iPod shuffle to a full-size Mac--few companies know how to create *an awesome package-opening, product-unveiling experience* like Apple can, and the new unibody MBP is no exception. The surprisingly small box it comes in (and the impressively minimal internal packaging bits) is a simple, elegant showcase for the beauty of the new MBP’s unibody chassis. Lifting the MBP out of the box reveals to the hands an immediate sense of solidity, the MBP’s body more inert feeling than any other laptop I’ve handled--I would suspect that it would take a rather great deal of force to deform the main chassis, and any sense of frame flex is all but eliminated. And the unibody is as gorgeous as it is strong, with gaps so small and uniform, tolerances so tight, that, when closed, results in the MBP looking like a smoothly sculpted solid aluminum slab. One imperfection I noticed was the crookedness of the MBP's F-keys row, the tops of the keys angled off-parallel (to the chassis) from key to key--I honestly did not care about this, as it could not be detected while typing, and so did not have any effect on functionality (but thought it worth mentioning for those who would care about such a thing).

Once I was past the joy that is Apple packaging and presentation, I opened that slab of aluminum up, and was greeted by what is easily the most reflective screen I’ve ever seen on a laptop--I was staring right back at me. I’ve seen this new screen style referred to as “glossy,” but, in the context of laptop displays, anything you’ve seen called “glossy” in the past probably pales in reflectivity to the level of shine exhibited by the new MacBooks’ screens, as they’re covered with a perfectly flat pane of just as perfectly reflective glass. Unfortunately, this mirror-smooth glass is the only display surface option available with the unibody MacBooks. There is one obvious positive to such a clear, clean pane of glass, and that’s how it allows the MBP display’s stellar image quality to shine right through unimpeded (assuming there are no glaring reflections at the time), and it is easily among the nicest displays I’ve seen from any laptop, being bright, and with good contrast and color, pretty impressive viewing angle performance, and, again, _bright_. The screen’s LED backlight does a great job, by the sheer force of candelas, in _helping_ to overcome the reflectivity of the glass surface--most of the time, however, it doesn’t completely overcome the reflectivity problem (and, to my eyes, it _is_ a problem).

_



*<note> *It is important to note that the unibody MacBook (the non-Pro Macbook) does not have a smaller version of the screen that comes with the MacBook Pro. It comes with a screen that is far less impressive: less bright, far less vibrant, far less contrasty, and with a rather high sensitivity to viewing angle. I say this only in comparison to the MBP’s screen, but thought it important to mention, as the MacBook otherwise looks exactly like a smaller version of the MBP, and so that assumption might be made. The MacBook Air’s screen--though the same size as a non-Pro MacBook--is a nicer display than the standard MacBook’s, so, if you want a 13” MacBook with an impressive screen, you might have to consider the much more expensive MacBook Air.* </note>*

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_
Okay, so now I’m on the topic of the MBP’s screen, and this is where my first tale of Mac woe(s) originates. My first MBP (yes _first_ in that there were eventually _several_) arrived with scratches smack dab in the middle of the screen. Had these scratches been off to the side more, I’d have accepted it and soldiered on. An immediate call to Apple Support was met with very polite and contrite customer service folks. I asked if I could just take it to a local Apple Store location to have the screen replaced, and they said that wasn’t an option at the time, so an arrangement for a replacement was made. I asked if they could do an advanced shipment of the replacement unit, so that I wouldn’t have to have a time gap between the scratched one and the replacement unit, but they apologetically said no. What I did, then, was to simply pay for the replacement unit, with a full refund pending the return of the first one, in order to prevent a time gap between units. While not an ideal solution, this is the best that can happen to prevent a gap because Apple doesn’t offer an on-site service option.

_



*<note> *This brings me to one of my first major points to consider when purchasing a Mac for business use: Again, Apple does not offer an on-site service option (that I’m aware of). What they do offer is a $349 AppleCare three-year "Protection Plan," but it’s not really a business-class warranty/support option, as far as I’m concerned. Coming from the world of Dell (almost all of my previous laptops were Dell), I’ve been spoiled by their on-site service options (not to mention available accidental damage coverage), with which (depending on the level of service you choose) the repair technician comes out to wherever you are to fix or replace whatever needs fixing or replacing, based on the result of your support telephone call leading up to the visit. (I believe they’ll even come to your hotel or off-site office if you’re out of town on business when the repair is needed.) Even if Apple offered an expensive $500+ option that offered on-site service, I’d be all over it. That they don’t is maybe the most primary reason for me not recommending Macs as a solid small business choice, as the best that can happen in the event of a malfunction is to have a local Apple Store around for you to take your Mac to if something goes wrong, in the hope that they can fix it on the spot. If that local Apple store can’t fix it, however, off to the repair depot your Mac goes, along with the productivity-killing wait of at least three business days, and quite probably even more, especially if you happen to have the unfortunate pre-weekend or weekend malfunction. Though I knew this before going in, I didn’t expect to have so many problems early on, as my previous Dells might have required, on average, one major service call in each of their service lifetimes with me. In my opinion, the lack of warranty options is a major issue for the business user to consider before switching from Windows to Mac.* </note>*

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_
The second MacBook Pro arrived, and, sans screen scratches, it was identical to the first, crooked F-keys and all. But since the screen was pristine, I was very happy with it. Everything seemed to be working fine for about five weeks. But one evening while using it, the fans’ rotational speeds started going up and down, up and down, up and down. I downloaded a Dashboard widget called iStat Pro that gives a peek into the various temperature sensors, as well the speed of the fans. The fans were shooting up to 6000+ rpm, and then back down again in a rather rapid cycle, and I noticed this was happening when some of the temperature sensors started reading _negative_ temperatures. I ran Apple’s included hardware diagnostics, and it returned an error code (4SNS/1/40000000:TG1H-128.000). I called Apple Support, and they immediately decided to issue another replacement. I told them I’d rather buy a non-custom unit from the local Apple Store than wait to receive another custom-spec'd replacement, just in case something went wrong yet again in the very early days of ownership. As a result, Apple issued me a full refund (upon return of MBP #2). I immediately ran to the local Apple Store, purchased the highest-level configuration available at the store, restored from backup to that machine, and then returned MacBook Pro #2 to Apple for the refund. (I should note that Apple did pay for all return shipping, too, and reimbursed the initial order's shipping charge. Also, I forgot to pack the USB modem and mini displayport adapter in my return package, and called to notify Apple so they could adjust the refund, and they instead let me keep those pieces for free.)

_



*<note> *Here’s another important thing to note: Yes, you can buy a more impressively spec’d Mac if you custom order from Apple’s online store than you can find in the physical store locations (because the brick-and-mortar Apple Stores only carry the standard configurations--and currently that means no fastest-available CPU, no 7200-rpm or SSD drives, etc. at the physical stores). Buying a custom unit, however, means a pretty solid chance of foregoing any shot at an in-store exchange, even if something goes wrong very early on. In other words, if you order custom, any malfunction will likely result in a send-to-depot service solution, which, again, will likely mean days without your Mac.* </note>*

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_
The store-bought MacBook Pro #3 was initially more perfect than even the MacBook Pro #2 initially was. Though the sensors were acting up on #2, it was still functional, and I was using it until #3 was fully restored from backup. I had #2 and #3 side by side for a while, and noticed some differences. Both MBP's #1 and #2 had screen hinges that were far too loose, so placing the laptop on your lap and then angling your lap up resulted in the screen falling back and closing on you. However, MacBook Pro #3 had a substantially stiffer hinge (but still very smooth in its action) that completely eliminated the screen trying to close under its own weight during normal laptop use. MBP #3 had a cleaner , more consistent aluminum surface finish than MBP #2. Most noticeably, MBP #3 had a screen that wasn’t quite as bright as #2 (but that was still extremely bright), and had the significant advantage of displaying nicer, fuller colors, as well as noticeably better contrast.* (I had previously compared #1 to #2 side by side, and they had screens that looked identical to me.) Also, #3’s F-keys were all perfectly straight, unlike both of the previous units. In short, #3 seemed like bliss in the making.





> [size=x-small]* Search the web for 9c84 and 9c85 displays on the the unibody MacBook Pro. Both MBP #1 and #2 had the 9c84 display; #3 had the 9c85 display. Some people prefer the brightness of 9c84; I personally much preferred the better color saturation and contrast of 9c85.[/size]


After about a week with #3, a new wide-gamut 24” external display arrived (Hewlett-Packard LP2475w), and, lo, my beloved MBP #3 could not properly drive it--the combo resulted in noise, distortion, snow, and pixel flashing, but no solid picture. Testing the display with other laptops (Windows-based) exhibited perfect operation (and the new monitor looked fantastic with those). I called Apple Support, and the very helpful lady told me it was a known issue with no current fix, and e-mailed me a link to a discussion thread in Apple’s support forums in which many other unibody MBP owners were sharing their accounts of similar (and often identical) problems driving external displays, and what some of these folks were able to do to help ameliorate the display problem (but not everyone could make it better with any amount of tweaking, and I unfortunately fit in with that bunch). This problematic unibody MBP routine I was going through--this painful move to Mac--was starting to get _real[/i ] old, and was negatively impacting my productivity.

I set an appointment to meet with an Apple Genius at the local Apple Store I purchased #3 from. The “Genius” that was assigned to me was (and I can’t think of any other way to put it that wouldn’t be lying) an unmitigated ass. _Whereas everyone I had theretofore dealt with at Apple was nice and helpful, the Genius seemed irritable from the get-go, and arrogant to boot. While there, I tested MBP #3 on the new 24” Apple Cinema Display, and it worked. I probably would have bought that display on the spot if it had more than a mini displayport connection--yes, that is the only connector type it has, meaning Apple's fancy new 24" display is currently only compatible with the unibody MacBooks, which also means none of my other computers would work with it, nixing it from further consideration. (Not even Apple’s own previous MacBooks can currently work with their new 24” Cinema Display, as there are no such adapters to make the fit. Don't get me started.) We tested MBP #3 on a 23” Apple Cinema Display, and it worked with that, too. At this point, Genius treated me as though I was the one causing the problem, or as if something was wrong with my new monitor (which he did specifically suggest). I reiterated that my new monitor worked fine with my other computers, and that many other unibody MBP owners were posting of identical problems, a couple of whom even posted links to YouTube videos that exhibited exactly what I was experiencing. When I reminded him again that it was a known issue with Apple Support (given his suggestions that the problem was not the MBP), he replied very gruffly, “Yes, I heard you the first time.” He then asked to see the e-mail message the support lady sent me, and I showed it to him. Reading this, he searched the support database, becoming increasingly irritable through it all, and then told me that (even though I had purchased this one just eight days prior) he had no option available to him to remedy the situation, and that I was just going to have to wait for a fix--I am not kidding, I am not exaggerating. I reminded him that some have been waiting for a fix for a couple of months to no avail, and that I needed a solution asap, even if it meant exchanging the unit for an entirely different model that could reliably drive external displays. (At that point, I was ready to go with the 17” MacBook Pro, which is still based on the previous-generation chassis, and which I saw no mention of similar problems with--this wasn’t an ideal solution to me at the time, however, as I had intentionally gone from a 17” Dell to a 15” MBP for the sake of shaving off size and weight from my daily carry.) The Genius’ response was to reiterate that he was unable to offer me that solution, or any solution for that matter, except for to instruct me to wait for Apple to issue a fix. Incredulous and fuming, I told him this was completely unacceptable. He said again that was the only option available. Tension between us was quickly rising by then. At that point, I told him they were taking #3 back regardless of this so-called only option available to him, as I would simply wipe the drive right there on the spot, call American Express to dispute the charge for that computer, and leave it at the store--I also asked to speak with a manager. The manager seemed to sense there was tension building, and quickly reassigned someone else to me--a guy who couldn’t have been nicer, and who, remarkably, was familiar with (and enjoys) Head-Fi.org. He told me that the manager approved the exchange for the 17” MBP (I, of course, had to pay the difference). He was the antithesis of Bad Genius, saw me through the exchange, and couldn’t have been more courteous throughout. I started the Mac OSX reinstall on the MBP I was returning (to erase the drive), and walked off to continue with some holiday shopping while that process ran. When I came back 35 minutes later, the reinstall was complete, the store manager greeted me again and wished me better luck with the 17” MBP, and off I went. (Thankfully, I didn’t see that unfriendly Genius, even in passing, from the moment the manager relieved him of me, and me of him. I still can't believe that guy is allowed to wear the word "Genius" on his name badge, and hope to goodness he was a bad exception, and not the norm, for an Apple Genius.)




[size=xx-small]The MacBook Pro 17", which still uses the previous-generation MBP chassis.[/size]

This "PC to Mac" story is obviously getting quite long, so let me try to end it quickly. (And I hope this really is the end of this story for me, too.) The 17” MacBook Pro drove my new HP LP2475w display without a hitch. The glass display of the unibody MBP had me running the other way and choosing the matte screen option with the 17” MBP, which is far easier on my eyes. I was suffering from eyestrain and tension headaches when using the unibody MBP, and assumed it was probably due to the LED backlighting, which none of my previous laptops or displays had. However, the 17” MBP causes me no eyestrain or tension headaches; and since the 17” also has LED backlighting, I’m now guessing that it was the reflections on the unibody MBP’s screen surface causing me the eye discomfort, and the associated tension headaches. I hope when it’s time to replace this 17” MBP that Apple has matte screen options available, but it seems for now that they’re definitely moving to glass, if the unibody MacBooks and the new 24” Cinema Display are any indications. (I'll worry about that in a few years, when it's time to replace this one.)

So you might have asked yourself somewhere in all this why I didn’t simply return the unibody MBP and go back to a Windows-based laptop by Dell, Lenovo, HP, or some other outfit that offers more hardware power bang for the buck, as well as the all-important on-site service options. The answer to that is that I would definitely have done exactly that if I hadn’t spent so much dang money on Mac-specific software already, like Microsoft Office for Mac, Adobe Design Premium Creative Suite 4, and others. Also, the problems I had were hardware problems, and those hardware problems didn’t change the fact that I consider Mac OSX a superior user environment hands-down versus any current version of Windows. Some Windows-based laptop models only come with Windows Vista options, and I had no interest in going Vista (and probably don't need to explain that to most of you familiar with Vista). (Most business-class laptops, however, do still seem to come with Windows XP “downgrade” options.) However, what I’ve seen very early on about the upcoming Windows 7 suggests to me that Microsoft might have a their best OS yet coming in 2009, and might cause me some regret again about making this platform change when it's finally out. So, simply put, yes, had I not purchased all that expensive Mac software, I’d have likely gone back to Windows after the difficulties with my unibody MBP's.

But, so far (over a week later), this 17” MBP has been nothing but joy, and I hope it continues. Its built-in display is gorgeous. The eyestrain and tension headaches have ceased, thanks to the matte display option. The MBP 17" drives my 24” monitors flawlessly. It has no problems booting from third-party boot disks (which none of my unibody MBP’s would do, by the way). The screen hinge is perfect (though I do wish the screen could swing open a little further, like the unibody MacBooks can). I prefer the MBP 17's more conventional keyboard to the chiclet-style keys of the new MacBooks. In a nutshell, and most importantly, so far it works! To minimize any service gaps if this unit ever malfunctions, I may buy an extra MacBook (like the previous-generation plastic-body white MacBook that is currently being sold as the entry-level unit in the MacBook family), just to keep on hand to turn to if me or any of my Mac-using colleagues (currently only one) is facing a depot repair.

On the Mac-positive front, again, I do consider Mac OSX to be a superior user environment (compared to Windows), with a user interface that makes immediately more sense to me than even Windows does after 20+ years of using it. If you're an audio enthusiast, there are some key Mac advantages there, too. For example, in addition to kmixer-free bit-perfect digital audio without the need for plugins, one thing that's nice is the ability to tap that through the built-in digital optical output, which allows me to directly feed a DAC without a USB receiver; and my MBP 17" will soon be driving my heavily-modded Wadia-301-as-DAC the moment Wadia installs my input board in it. I won't get into any more detail here, as you can *search these forums* for plenty more on the subject of the Mac's audiophile advantages.

I would think my experience with the unibody MacBook Pros isn't typical, so consider all of the above just one man's experience going from Windows to Mac, as that's all it is. But hopefully, if you're considering the switch from a PC to Mac, there were some helpful bits in all this for you. For me, the transition hasn't been all fuzzy and warm; but as long as this MacBook Pro 17" keeps working the way it is right now, I should be quite happy for a few more years (knock on wood).


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## hypoicon

Wow. I specifically ordered a glossy screen when matte was the default,


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## TheMarchingMule

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hypoicon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow. I specifically ordered a glossy screen when matte was the default,_

 

I'm sorry.


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## Raez

Moral of the story: PC > Mac


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## jude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hypoicon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow. I specifically ordered a glossy screen when matte was the default,_

 

Again, if you had a matte option, then you're obviously not referring to the unibody MacBooks (as they have no matte options). My Dell Inspiron 9300 has a glossy screen, and I used it without problem for about three years. I've seen the glossy version MacBook screens offered in past MacBooks, and still offered with the 17" MacBook Pro, which is the same type of glossy screen surface I had with the Inspiron 9300. As I stated in my big post above, those glossy screens simply aren't the same as the unibody MacBooks' screens. The unibody has a perfectly flat glass overlay, and so couldn't be glossier without mirror-coating it. Again, the flat glass screen surface simply redefines glossy.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Raez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Moral of the story: PC > Mac_

 

LOL. No matter the forum or site, whenever a post or article mentions both Mac and PC, some will always find the battle for the single answer for which is better for everyone. I say neither suits everyone's needs, and each serves some needs better than the other. I called a couple of my Head-Fi friends leading up to my initial decision to switch or not, and received nice, well-reasoned arguments for both sides.

 Again, I currently prefer Mac OSX to any current Windows version available (for my needs), but Windows 7 looks like it might end up being very compelling.


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## Currawong

Congrats on the switch Jude. Pity nobody warned you never to buy the first revision of any new Mac. Though new revisions aren't announced (unless it's a spec upgrade) Apple silently make changes to the models in response to issues that arise. I'm sure if you'd done this a few months later, you'd have had none of the issues.


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## Planar_head

Thanks for the story, Jude. I think I'll point anyone whose considering a Mac here, because it is so down to earth. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 At least you kept your head on straight with the first Genius - I think by then I'd end up going Hackintosh just so everything is in my hands.


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## AuroraProject

I've been loving my 17" MBP for just over 2 years now. Still runs like it did on day 1, when it dies I will buy another one in a heartbeat.


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## vagarach

I'm glad you're settled and happy, when things go wrong with Apple, they go way wrong, difficult geniuses and the rest. 

 My first generation santa rosa MBP is still going strong, touch wood! And glossy displays, _who_ decided they were good, now the whole damn industry uses them. In the future will there _ever_ be an Apple computer without a glossy display?


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## rlpaul

I don't get why Apple insists on Glossy displays - they're glare nightmares. They look all shiny and cool in the store, but they're a real PITA in working conditions.

 I have the previous generation MBP 15, when they were offering glossy displays as an option, and I could never figure out how they became so popular.


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## screwglue

i love my macbook pro. somewhere i recall hearing that you can install mac osx on any sort of computer?


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## nsx_23

As you pointed out, I'm looking forward to the next version of windows, which looks set to be much better than Vista. 

 TBH, I haven't had any vista problems on my 12" Asus Laptop though.........


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## oogabooga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congrats on the switch Jude. Pity nobody warned you never to buy the first revision of any new Mac. Though new revisions aren't announced (unless it's a spec upgrade) Apple silently make changes to the models in response to issues that arise. I'm sure if you'd done this a few months later, you'd have had none of the issues._

 

Yeah, sadly Currawong is quite correct. Apple's QC on new products has been poor as of late.

 Jude - way to go on the 17"! I've seen that matte, HD quality screen - it's amazing!

 BTW, it's not Dell's amazing NBD on-site coverage, but Apple does have ProCare, which is supposed to give you priority service on repairs, etc. I had a Latitude before my Mac and I did use their NBD onsite a couple of times. I also had a cavalier attitude to drinking coffee by my laptop


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## elrod-tom

This is just TOO funny...

 I bought a MAC Mini just last Saturday, along with an Apogee Duet. I am also waiting for my Wadia digital input board (not much longer I'm told 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




), though I'll be driving the Wadia mostly with the iTransport.

 I think we'll have the pieces for a pretty good Detroit area meet before much longer here.


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## Feather225

Mac is a piece of art.


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## LostPhil

I don't seem familiar with the "Vista problems" mentioned, been running it for nearly a year and a half and would take it over XP any day of the week - Navigating windows explorer is much nicer for me (although it has to cache every time for some reason...) and still running pretty much like it was on day 1 (well, plus service pack benefits!). If I was running XP I'd have had to re-install it at least once by now.

 Sorry to hear about those hardware problems! I don't think I'll ever make the switch to a Mac, although it's mainly down to knowing the Windows way of doing things and I'd get frustrated Apple's control-everything attitude (only using certain kind of connections etc, as you've found out).

 They do seem like nice, relatively solid products but far too expensive for me.


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## kansei

This is why I buy used equipment and used cars. My expectations for new stuff is to be perfect. When I pay a premium for something and it fails it makes my blood boil. What makes it worse is bad customer service, iffy engineering and warranties that don't cover what they should. Buying used and out of warranty lessens my expectations and doesn't drive me as crazy.

 I also like PCs and would not pay a premium for a Mac. Then again, I'm an IT professional and can fix all PC problems easily.


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## noremedy

Yeah, this sounds like a freak and unlucky incident. - I made the switch recently from PC to Mac - hiccup free. However, i purposely bought an old MBP 15" when the MATTE screen was standard, I knew all i was likely to miss out on was DDR3 ram, which i hear is buggy anyway? Anyway I am glad you got it solved, and am glad to hear you kept your cool with that arrogant sounding p**** in the store.


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## Raez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Again, if you had a matte option, then you're obviously not referring to the unibody MacBooks (as they have no matte options). My Dell Inspiron 9300 has a glossy screen, and I used it without problem for about three years. I've seen the glossy version MacBook screens offered in past MacBooks, and still offered with the 17" MacBook Pro, which is the same type of glossy screen surface I had with the Inspiron 9300. As I stated in my big post above, those glossy screens simply aren't the same as the unibody MacBooks' screens. The unibody has a perfectly flat glass overlay, and so couldn't be glossier without mirror-coating it. Again, the flat glass screen surface simply redefines glossy.

 LOL. No matter the forum or site, whenever a post or article mentions both Mac and PC, some will always find the battle for the single answer for which is better for everyone. I say neither suits everyone's needs, and each serves some needs better than the other. I called a couple of my Head-Fi friends leading up to my initial decision to switch or not, and received nice, well-reasoned arguments for both sides.

 Again, I currently prefer Mac OSX to any current Windows version available (for my needs), but Windows 7 looks like it might end up being very compelling._

 

Hahaha I know, I just wanted to throw that out there to start a massive fanboy war. I'd say Windows > Mac for coding/gaming but I'd go Mac for basic using/media. Actually I take that back because I hate iTunes with a fiery passion.


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## RYCeT

Congrats for your Mac switch Jude, it's unfortunate it give you some bad taste early on. I don't really like the concept of Genius Bar either, no on the spot problem solving and has to made an appointment just to get your problem seen is annoying. I never dealt with Apple customer service since my macbook work from day one so can't comment on it. The only problem I have is to access my files on osx from my desktop pc. I'm not an apple fanboy however I loved my macbook. OSX is so much better than windows. I still have a pc desktop. At first, I thought of using my macbook to run xp and I did install xp pro on bootcamp and fusion. I rarely open my xp on bootcamp or use fusion. OSX handles my needs just fine, for everything else, I just use my pc desktop. For laptop purposes, I'll buy another macbook in a heart beat. 
 So Jude, the next thing you should do is check this thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f90/wh...e-os-x-394065/
 Enjoy your OSX experience.


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## FrederikS|TPU

Damn that is a horrible story. A lot of the new laptops from other manufacturers have issues too. I got a HP 8530W and it has problems with on of the buttons. That I have to note is the only problem. Apples lack of warranty is a bit annoying I was actually able to get on-site support for the HP for only $125! which is really neat (only on the business models).

 BTW how is that HP LP2475w treating you? Got one too and I use it both with my laptop and big PC. I had a little problems getting the colors to be true but after that it has been smooth.


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## woof37

Wow. You really have me second-guessing my very-near-future unibody MBP purchase. I like glossy screens, personally, and the LED-backlit screens I've seen in the past (notably the Dell XPS models) were phenomenal. 

 As to the rude "genius", you should have spoken to the manager off-line or arranged for a mystery shopper to be sent to him. All that person can do is cost Apple business, and any good manager would relieve him of his duties after witnessing what befell you.


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## chesebert

SIPS matte screen is the only way to go for prolonged viewing. TN+glossy is a bad combination.


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## krmathis

Congratulations on the switch Jude! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I am closing in on my 5 year anniversary of my own switch (FreeBSD on Dell -> Mac OS X on PowerBook G4), and have never looked back.


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## mark_h

I keep switching back and forth, currently have a 13" Macbook, black, they just don't make two of my most used programs for OS X hence the swapping. I prefer macs by a long way!


----------



## MusicallySilent

Jude, you have now witnessed the difference between Rev A and Rev (much later letter) which has almost been perfected

 I had a debate for a few days between lower unibody 15 or lower previous gen 15 (could get it for 1400 at microcenter pre tax) I have decided on the previous for basically what you have discussed, 100s of people are having problems with such a new product so I would much rather get something that has been perfected for 2 years. In reality the only things that make me want unibody are chassis strength and h.264 chip, also my urge to have the newest technology. But that mini display port and glass screen deter me every time.

 I am making the jump to mac (with bootcamp for inventor and a few games) later this week, and I hope I have good luck.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MusicallySilent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jude, you have now witnessed the difference between Rev A and Rev (much later letter) which has almost been perfected

 I had a debate for a few days between lower unibody 15 or lower previous gen 15 (could get it for 1400 at microcenter pre tax) I have decided on the previous for basically what you have discussed, 100s of people are having problems with such a new product so I would much rather get something that has been perfected for 2 years. In reality the only things that make me want unibody are chassis strength and h.264 chip, also my urge to have the newest technology. But that mini display port and glass screen deter me every time.

 I am making the jump to mac (with bootcamp for inventor and a few games) later this week, and I hope I have good luck._

 

So when is Rev B of the new MBP due? You folks have given me a lot to ponder. 

 (pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?)


----------



## Brighten

Yeah, those "Geniuses" piss me off.


----------



## ozz

Still enjoying my MBP 15 since I switched from a Dell PC a little over 2
 years ago so congratulations and maybe all the bad luck is behind you.


----------



## Edwood

LOL, sorry I couldn't better talk you out of getting a Mac, Jude. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Contrary to popular belief, LED backlighting is not superior to cold cathode tube lighting. LED's have their benefits, but superior lighting is not one of them. LED's offer more light for less energy, but they are single spot light sources, so lighting is often uneven. It requires a larger diffuser and more LED's, which negates the space saving and energy saving benefits. Also, the part that is hard on the eyes, is the process in which most LED's are dimmed. PWM. Pulse Width Modulation. Basically, the LED's are flickered on and off to reduce the appearance of their brightness. But some people can actually see this effect. The best way to check for it, is to wave your hand in front of the screen. So, for LED bases displays, they look the best with the screen brightness cranked all the way up. 

 My Fujitsu P1610 has LED lighting, and the dimming circuit is not done with poorly executed PWM, but the inverter makes an annoying high pitched whine when I dim the screen. But I'd rather have the high pitched whine I can only hear when it's in a very quiet room, vs. eye strain inducing PWM.

 Anyways, glad to hear you like your new 17" Macbook. Are you bringing it to CES? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL, sorry I couldn't better talk you out of getting a Mac, Jude. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Contrary to popular belief, LED backlighting is not superior to cold cathode tube lighting. LED's have their benefits, but superior lighting is not one of them. LED's offer more light for less energy, but they are single spot light sources, so lighting is often uneven. It requires a larger diffuser and more LED's, which negates the space saving and energy saving benefits. Also, the part that is hard on the eyes, is the process in which most LED's are dimmed. PWM. Pulse Width Modulation. Basically, the LED's are flickered on and off to reduce the appearance of their brightness. But some people can actually see this effect. The best way to check for it, is to wave your hand in front of the screen. So, for LED bases displays, they look the best with the screen brightness cranked all the way up. 

 My Fujitsu P1610 has LED lighting, and the dimming circuit is not done with poorly executed PWM, but the inverter makes an annoying high pitched whine when I dim the screen. But I'd rather have the high pitched whine I can only hear when it's in a very quiet room, vs. eye strain inducing PWM.

 Anyways, glad to hear you like your new 17" Macbook. Are you bringing it to CES? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed_

 

I disagree with that, Ed. CCFL backlighting is prone to hotspots and screen bleed, much more so than any LED screen should be, and especially with age.


----------



## ozz

Most of the high end LCD's for HT are all led . The OLED technology is
 supposed to be the Holy Grail.


----------



## M0T0XGUY

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL, sorry I couldn't better talk you out of getting a Mac, Jude. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Contrary to popular belief, LED backlighting is not superior to cold cathode tube lighting. LED's have their benefits, but superior lighting is not one of them. LED's offer more light for less energy, but they are single spot light sources, so lighting is often uneven. It requires a larger diffuser and more LED's, which negates the space saving and energy saving benefits. Also, the part that is hard on the eyes, is the process in which most LED's are dimmed. PWM. Pulse Width Modulation. Basically, the LED's are flickered on and off to reduce the appearance of their brightness. But some people can actually see this effect. The best way to check for it, is to wave your hand in front of the screen. So, for LED bases displays, they look the best with the screen brightness cranked all the way up. 

 My Fujitsu P1610 has LED lighting, and the dimming circuit is not done with poorly executed PWM, but the inverter makes an annoying high pitched whine when I dim the screen. But I'd rather have the high pitched whine I can only hear when it's in a very quiet room, vs. eye strain inducing PWM.

 Anyways, glad to hear you like your new 17" Macbook. Are you bringing it to CES? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Ed_

 

I'm not so sure about that. I've compared several 20"-24" LCD's side by side, and LED backlit models consistently remain the brightest, sharpest, and most accurate in terms of color. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've also never noticed a flickering picture regardless of the brightness setting; and I'm typing on a new Macbook as we speak.


----------



## Shike

I still don't understand why people are so hung-up about Vista. The only argument available is "it's not pretty enough". In terms of stability fixes and balanced performance it's everything MS wanted to accomplish. Windows 7 will change the GUI, lower "actual" memory footprint, and allow customizable UAC. It will still be based on the Vista kernel heavily.

 Regardless, in terms of customer service the grass will always be greener on the other side. Dell Business sucked for getting a measly HDD sent to me. I was on a trip for school and had to do some remote access projects states away for finals. The HDD died in transit. I called them and told them I needed the HDD overnighted according to my service plan (next day parts or labor). They proceeded to argue claiming it was RAM. Needless to say, I failed said finals. It also took a total of a month of pulling teeth to even get the replacement, which just to spit in my face was sent standard ground -_-


----------



## guyx1992

Today I saw for the first time what is a Mac O: 
 I mean I saw YouTube reviews and stuff but I've hadn't any experience with it... 
 It's really cool! I think that whenever I buy a laptop (I currently don't need one) a Mac solution would be thought of. 
 Only one thing bothers me, is there any *good* C# compiler? Preferably similar to the Microsoft Visual C# Express Edition. 

 Thanks


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guyx1992* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Only one thing bothers me, is there any *good* C# compiler? Preferably similar to the Microsoft Visual C# Express Edition._

 

Never used it myself, as I stick with GCC, but Mono is said to be the way to have C# on Mac OS X.
Main Page - Mono


----------



## ajstark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guyx1992* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Today I saw for the first time what is a Mac O: 
 I mean I saw YouTube reviews and stuff but I've hadn't any experience with it... 
 It's really cool! I think that whenever I buy a laptop (I currently don't need one) a Mac solution would be though of. 
 Only one thing bothers me, is there any *good* C# compiler? Preferably similar to the Microsoft Visual C# Express Edition. 

 Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The Mac Os is based on the Mach Os. The Mach OS is a variant of the UNIX OS. I have been dealing with UNIX on Sun Serves and HP Server for years. UNIX is a very robust operating system. In terms of reliability and security it is much better than Windoze.

 Have you considered coding in the Java Programming language. Supposedly C# is M$ version of Java. Here is the link for Java on the Mac Java .

 When I get a new PC a year (or two) from now I am going to upgrade to a Mac. I decided to start research what I need to do to make the switch. I saw the following book on Amazon dot com - 
 "Switching to the Mac: The Missing Manual, Leopard Edition" by David Pogue .
 I have not read it yet but it looks interest. 

 Al


----------



## guyx1992

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ajstark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Mac Os is based on the Mach Os. The Mach OS is a variant of the UNIX OS. I have been dealing with UNIX on Sun Serves and HP Server for years. UNIX is a very robust operating system. In terms of reliability and security it is much better than Windoze.

 Have you considered coding in the Java Programming language. Supposedly C# is M$ version of Java. Here is the link for Java on the Mac Java .

 When I get a new PC a year (or two) from now I am going to upgrade to a Mac. I decided to start research what I need to do to make the switch. I saw the following book on Amazon dot com - 
 "Switching to the Mac: The Missing Manual, Leopard Edition" by David Pogue .
 I have not read it yet but it looks interest. 

 Al_

 

I didn't decide to learn C#. I'm currently at the 11th Grade and I learn C# at school so I suppose I'll just continue with this language at least until I finish school.


----------



## ajstark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guyx1992* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't decide to learn C#. I'm currently at the 11th Grade and I learn C# at school so I suppose I'll just continue with this language at least until I finish school._

 

May be the best solution is to have a copy of windows on the Mac. With bootcamp you can run the PC under the Mac OS or the Windows OS. Use the Windows OS for your C# homework and use Mac OS for everything else.

 Al


----------



## SACD-Man

I'm typing this on my new MacBook Pro and I love everything about it. It's my 5th mac so my expectations are high when I upgrade. 

 One thing that everyone should understand is that the audio line out sounds the best compared to other laptops. For those of you who are DAC users, this is key since its the cleanest source I have heard so far (referring to laptops).

 HAPPY NEW YEARS!!!!!


----------



## ozz

krmathis and Big Shot have been saying the audio out (optical) has been
 the trick for a while and I have said this but am fairly new to Mac only
 been using it for 2.5 years so far and love it the PC has not been fired up
 in so long not even sure everything is ok with it and really don't care if not.


----------



## SACD-Man

yea that optical out is simply amazing!!


----------



## bangraman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SACD-Man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm typing this on my new MacBook Pro and I love everything about it. It's my 5th mac so my expectations are high when I upgrade. 

 One thing that everyone should understand is that the audio line out sounds the best compared to other laptops. For those of you who are DAC users, this is key since its the cleanest source I have heard so far (referring to laptops)._

 

Which is interesting, since what's inside is basically a bog standard low-end soundcard with the same (or in some cases even worse) electronics between the codec and the sockets certainly in terms of analog output as any number of other notebooks. (digital isn't actually that hot either, but that's another argument and really not that important as it *is* quite convenient) One aspect of Mac 'fanboyism' is that many people imbue Apple gear with superior function for no logically discernible reason. I see it everywhere since I started using them again in earnest.


 There are situations in which Apple OS or hardware can clearly work better. Most of these situations however, if I were to be a little brutal, involves users who don't quite know what they're doing but you need them to be productive. For me Linux is an OS nerding too far, and I'm not a huge hardware nerd in that if I'm going to have a high-performance system, etc I'm going to get someone else to build it: But I do absolutely believe in nerding out on software, to search out and to buy what really works best for me. I know for many people the three or four-digit spend ends with the computer: Not for me. 


 And in that respect while I find the uniform elegance of Apple solutions beguiling, in comparison to Windows in general I find it too limiting in terms of the applications I can run on it: There is basically everyone else's slightly dumbed-down, easy to use, _good enough_ way to do it... or no way. And while some of those solutions may even be _de facto_ industry standards, I ended up being surprised by how often this was true even in quite mainstream areas once I started looking. As a result there are a limited number of things I do which I like to keep to Apple but interestingly, anything to do with Audio is not... and my media setup is now back to being predominantly Windows. 


 And Jude, your experiences aren't unique. That's the other problem... the actual build quality of Apple equipment, not just the surface look & feel which they are masters of. The two issues for me ended up also undermining the theoretical advantage of a Boot Campable Mac (which isn't actually that convenient or compatible, and virtualisation isn't for everyone who has 'heavy lifting' Windows uses). As much as I depend on my iPods, I have to say I have a more ambivalent relationship with the Macs.


----------



## Quad57

If you need a good screen, sony vaios have usually.
 Especially the FW model which has option for fullHD screen
 and bluray writer. Vaio Z 13,1" is also very nice, alots of power
 in a package that weghts same that most 10" netbooks,
 and very nice highrez screen and also bluray.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_krmathis and Big Shot have been saying the audio out (optical) has been the trick for a while and I have said this but am fairly new to Mac only been using it for 2.5 years so far and love it the PC has not been fired up in so long not even sure everything is ok with it and really don't care if not._

 

Yeah, the optical out is great.
 Together with Core Audio it makes a bit-perfect way to feed an external DAC.


----------



## olblueyez

Would it be a better idea to install any custom upgrades (memory or drives) after the purchase? Mac doesnt have great prices on that stuff. These parts are not proprietary right?


----------



## noremedy

You can install custom upgrades yourself, with non-apple equipment if that is what you are referring to. - I chose not to do it, since im not a tech geek, and didn't want to risk it. My dad did it on his brand new macbook just fine however.


----------



## SACD-Man

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bangraman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which is interesting, since what's inside is basically a bog standard low-end soundcard with the same (or in some cases even worse) electronics between the codec and the sockets certainly in terms of analog output as any number of other notebooks. (digital isn't actually that hot either, but that's another argument and really not that important as it *is* quite convenient) One aspect of Mac 'fanboyism' is that many people imbue Apple gear with superior function for no logically discernible reason. I see it everywhere since I started using them again in earnest.


 There are situations in which Apple OS or hardware can clearly work better. Most of these situations however, if I were to be a little brutal, involves users who don't quite know what they're doing but you need them to be productive. For me Linux is an OS nerding too far, and I'm not a huge hardware nerd in that if I'm going to have a high-performance system, etc I'm going to get someone else to build it: But I do absolutely believe in nerding out on software, to search out and to buy what really works best for me. I know for many people the three or four-digit spend ends with the computer: Not for me. 


 And in that respect while I find the uniform elegance of Apple solutions beguiling, in comparison to Windows in general I find it too limiting in terms of the applications I can run on it: There is basically everyone else's slightly dumbed-down, easy to use, good enough way to do it... or no way. And while some of those solutions may even be de facto industry standards, I ended up being surprised by how often this was true even in quite mainstream areas once I started looking. As a result there are a limited number of things I do which I like to keep to Apple but interestingly, anything to do with Audio is not... and my media setup is now back to being predominantly Windows. 


 And Jude, your experiences aren't unique. That's the other problem... the actual build quality of Apple equipment, not just the surface look & feel which they are masters of. The two issues for me ended up also undermining the theoretical advantage of a Boot Campable Mac (which isn't actually that convenient or compatible, and virtualisation isn't for everyone who has 'heavy lifting' Windows uses). As much as I depend on my iPods, I have to say I have a more ambivalent relationship with the Macs._

 

The main reason why I do have a MAC is for imaging and sound. I have compared many PC models and the MacBook Pro seems to sound better to me than any other PC that I have tested. Now I'm sure you can find a better sound card combo that will be more pleasing, however out of the box, the optical line out does sound great.

 There are several compelling arguments for which system is "better". It's not up to me to decide if this is better for you. However it certainly fits my needs. Please remember that advance MAC users are more likely Linux users which I am. 

 BTW - I use bootcamp when working, then switch to MAC for personal use. My XP (never vista) runs better then my tricked out Dell. Using Bootcamp is simple and seems to do the trick for me...

 It might not be for you and that why they make many platforms. And of course there are limitations. Vista for example has so many limitations and that's why I refuse to upgrade from XP. I will say this, there are many more ways to customize a PC in comparison to a MAC.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


 Would it be a better idea to install any custom upgrades (memory or drives) after the purchase? Mac doesnt have great prices on that stuff. These parts are not proprietary right? 
 

If you have one of the newer models, I'd be wary: 'Unibody' MacBook users report lockups with third-party RAM

 I'm not sure if the issue has been completely fixed yet. 

  Quote:


 If you need a good screen, sony vaios have usually. 
 

Vaios are probably one of the best notebook brands, but they're also among the most expensive. You're paying a HEAVY premium for the quality.


----------



## melomaniac

this is why I stuck to my trusty PB4 12# (last gen of that PB model), and my G5 dual with 23# apple screen (last gen of that G5 model)


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *olblueyez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would it be a better idea to install any custom upgrades (memory or drives) after the purchase? Mac doesnt have great prices on that stuff. These parts are not proprietary right?_

 

Yes, but see below:

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you have one of the newer models, I'd be wary: 'Unibody' MacBook users report lockups with third-party RAM

 I'm not sure if the issue has been completely fixed yet._

 

A similar problem occurred with the original Intel Macs. Corsair Value Select wouldn't work in them. I could be wrong, but Apple are fanatical about making everything absolutely to international standards. This means that devices that Windows PCs would otherwise be tolerant of, due to the lax following of standards, don't work on Macs. Of course, this doesn't stop Apple creating their own international standards (eg: Firewire).

  Quote:


 Vaios are probably one of the best notebook brands, but they're also among the most expensive. You're paying a HEAVY premium for the quality. 
 

Quality? The last time I worked in a place that sold Vaios, at least one of the models was so poorly made or designed that _every single one sold was returned faulty._ I wont touch Sony with a 10-foot barge pole.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Quality? The last time I worked in a place that sold Vaios, at least one of the models was so poorly made or designed that every single one sold was returned faulty. I wont touch Sony with a 10-foot barge pole._

 

Perhaps you're correct. I have heard that certain ones like the FE series suffer from build issues and poor screens, though the newer models in general are supposed to be improved. Guess Sony lacks consistency across its model lines, notebooks seem to either be really bad or very good.


----------



## oogabooga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Vaios are probably one of the best notebook brands, but they're also among the most expensive. You're paying a HEAVY premium for the quality._

 

Based on my experiences I have to respectfully disagree - Sony builds nice-looking products but they don't support them, use REALLY propriety stuff (i.e. installing Linux is tough as hell), and as a company they occasionally do nasty things like use rootkits. My calls to Sony support always left me frustrated and no better off then before I called, which is why I no longer use their products. Two of my friends have used the smallest (10.8") and largest (19") VAIOs, and while they look amazing, they were so functionally useless that both switched to another computer (ironically both Macs) after 6 months or so.


----------



## Kirosia

Maybe I was wrong. I've had other Sony products, and they turn to out to be pretty good build-wise. (Had a vaio, actually dropped it quite a few times before it crapped out, though it was on the heavy side) Demo'd a few new ones and they worked fine for me, if I bought one I'd only use XP and do little to no tweaking. (Still too expensive for my blood, nonetheless) I've had experience with Dell and HP also, they're build quality and tech support are pretty bad as well. (Business notebooks excluded) So I thought that in relative terms, the Sonys were a little better.


----------



## oogabooga

No, I don't think you're wrong, and I probably came off a bit strong in my reply above. Call it latent rage at Sony. 

 I'll share a positive HP tech experience - my cousin sent his 17", middle-of-the-line laptop in for service. HP fixed it but misplaced it, so they sent him the top-of-the-line 17" model gratis, then found his laptop a week later and sent that back to him too. 

 Dell was great before (I used their NBD onsite a few times in 04-05 with my Latitiude), but I agree in that I've heard nothing but bad things about Dell in the past two years.


----------



## jude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Planar_head* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the story, Jude. I think I'll point anyone whose considering a Mac here, because it is so down to earth...._

 

Thanks, Planar_head!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congrats on the switch Jude. Pity nobody warned you never to buy the first revision of any new Mac. Though new revisions aren't announced (unless it's a spec upgrade) Apple silently make changes to the models in response to issues that arise. I'm sure if you'd done this a few months later, you'd have had none of the issues._

 

I think you're probably right. Again, there were differences on the third unit (versus the first and second). I think the first was made in late October, the second in early November, and the third in early December. It doesn't appear, however, they've yet fixed the external display issue that it seems many are experiencing (at least not as of today from what I've seen).

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AuroraProject* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been loving my 17" MBP for just over 2 years now. Still runs like it did on day 1, when it dies I will buy another one in a heartbeat._

 

Ah, that's what I want to read. I hope I can say the same in a couple of years.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *vagarach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....And glossy displays, who decided they were good, now the whole damn industry uses them. In the future will there ever be an Apple computer without a glossy display?_

 

This is what I worry about, too, given where Apple is going. New MacBook--glass. New MacBook Pro--glass. New 24" Apple Cinema Display--glass. But, again, I'll worry about that in a couple/few years. Hopefully, by then, they'll have come to their senses.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rlpaul* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't get why Apple insists on Glossy displays - they're glare nightmares. They look all shiny and cool in the store, but they're a real PITA in working conditions.

 I have the previous generation MBP 15, when they were offering glossy displays as an option, and I could never figure out how they became so popular._

 

And, again, non-glass glossy displays are simply not as mirror-like as these flat glass ones, and the glare is quite a bit worse with the glass to my eyes. I'm on one of my Dell laptops right now with a glossy screen (because I'm upstairs, away from my MacBook Pro), and, again, it's still far less reflective to me than the glass screen. (I'm on the Dell Inspiron 9300 that I used for about three years prior to going Mac.)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, sadly Currawong is quite correct. Apple's QC on new products has been poor as of late...._

 

Since these were my first Macs, I can only say that my experience has me promising myself to stay away from any totally new Mac model in its first few months (or even longer).

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....Jude - way to go on the 17"! I've seen that matte, HD quality screen - it's amazing!..._

 

Thanks. I am definitely happier with this screen. In addition to being easier on my eyes, it's 1920 x 1200, which my Dell Inspiron 9300 also is, and makes it somewhat easier to manage multiple windows.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....BTW, it's not Dell's amazing NBD on-site coverage, but Apple does have ProCare, which is supposed to give you priority service on repairs, etc. I had a Latitude before my Mac and I did use their NBD onsite a couple of times. I also had a cavalier attitude to drinking coffee by my laptop_

 

Thanks for pointing me to that. I read the terms, though, and I don't think that there's much added value (for me anyway) with ProCare. As you stated, it's definitely not on-site. I think I'd take the ~$300 I'd spend on ProCare over the next few years, and apply that toward a backup MacBook.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *elrod-tom* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is just TOO funny...

 I bought a MAC Mini just last Saturday, along with an Apogee Duet. I am also waiting for my Wadia digital input board (not much longer I'm told ), though I'll be driving the Wadia mostly with the iTransport.

 I think we'll have the pieces for a pretty good Detroit area meet before much longer here._

 

Yes, Tom, we must. When I get back from CES, let's start talking about it. I want to get my Wadia 301's input board in before we do it, though, if possible. (I'm going to see if I can find the time to drop my 301 off at Wadia prior to leaving for CES to see if they can install the input board in it while I'm gone.)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *noremedy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, this sounds like a freak and unlucky incident. - I made the switch recently from PC to Mac - hiccup free. However, i purposely bought an old MBP 15" when the MATTE screen was standard, I knew all i was likely to miss out on was DDR3 ram, which i hear is buggy anyway? Anyway I am glad you got it solved, and am glad to hear you kept your cool with that arrogant sounding p**** in the store._

 

Unfortunately, the external display issue seems to me to be possibly more common than freak.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RYCeT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....The only problem I have is to access my files on osx from my desktop pc. I'm not an apple fanboy however I loved my macbook. OSX is so much better than windows. I still have a pc desktop. At first, I thought of using my macbook to run xp and I did install xp pro on bootcamp and fusion. I rarely open my xp on bootcamp or use fusion. OSX handles my needs just fine, for everything else, I just use my pc desktop. For laptop purposes, I'll buy another macbook in a heart beat...._

 

I made up my mind that I wouldn't even consider making the switch to Mac OS if I was going to have to maintain both OS's on my main laptop--it was one or the other, lest my life simply get more complex instead of more productive. (I was okay with the idea of keeping the Windows machines around, of course--like many of you, I have several. But I wanted my main computer to be one or the other.) It was only once I found the Mac equivalents and/or substitutes for all of the apps I use regularly (thanks in large part to one of my co-workers, and friends/family on Mac) that I decided to go Mac.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RYCeT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....So Jude, the next thing you should do is check this thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f90/wh...e-os-x-394065/
 Enjoy your OSX experience._

 

Ooh, fun thread. Yes, I will definitely contribute to that discussion, as I've found some wonderful apps for my purposes.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FrederikS|TPU* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....BTW how is that HP LP2475w treating you? Got one too and I use it both with my laptop and big PC. I had a little problems getting the colors to be true but after that it has been smooth._

 

With my Windows machines, the LP2475w can be overly saturated looking. I think it has something to do with color management/tuning. On my MBP 17, however, it's fantastic. I don't have a calibrator, but I did download some other ICC profiles others posted, and there is one in particular that I like. (I know that's not ideal calibration by any stretch, but it looks better to me than stock, and, well, I'm not a pro graphics or photo person, so that solution worked great for me.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow. You really have me second-guessing my very-near-future unibody MBP purchase. I like glossy screens, personally, and the LED-backlit screens I've seen in the past (notably the Dell XPS models) were phenomenal...._

 

I _strongly_ suggest anyone considering a unibody MB or MBP visit an Apple Store location to see for yourself that the glass makes for a new caliber of glossy.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congratulations on the switch Jude!
 I am closing in on my 5 year anniversary of my own switch (FreeBSD on Dell -> Mac OS X on PowerBook G4), and have never looked back._

 

Thanks, Kai! Yes, I want to stop looking back, too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MusicallySilent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jude, you have now witnessed the difference between Rev A and Rev (much later letter) which has almost been perfected

 I had a debate for a few days between lower unibody 15 or lower previous gen 15 (could get it for 1400 at microcenter pre tax) I have decided on the previous for basically what you have discussed, 100s of people are having problems with such a new product so I would much rather get something that has been perfected for 2 years. In reality the only things that make me want unibody are chassis strength and h.264 chip, also my urge to have the newest technology. But that mini display port and glass screen deter me every time.

 I am making the jump to mac (with bootcamp for inventor and a few games) later this week, and I hope I have good luck._

 

Yes, again, no Rev A units for me anymore.

 As for the unibody's strength, I saw this the other day: Apple - Support - Discussions - Bent my macbook 
	

 ...

 In the above link, someone posts about his unibody MBP bending under the stress of being picked up by one hand. Whereas that's not generally a good idea, I was surprised that happened. I figured the unibody chassis pretty much impervious to such bending. Oh well, it still seems like it would be stronger than the average laptop chassis to me.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL, sorry I couldn't better talk you out of getting a Mac, Jude.

 Contrary to popular belief, LED backlighting is not superior to cold cathode tube lighting. LED's have their benefits, but superior lighting is not one of them. LED's offer more light for less energy, but they are single spot light sources, so lighting is often uneven. It requires a larger diffuser and more LED's, which negates the space saving and energy saving benefits. Also, the part that is hard on the eyes, is the process in which most LED's are dimmed. PWM. Pulse Width Modulation. Basically, the LED's are flickered on and off to reduce the appearance of their brightness. But some people can actually see this effect. The best way to check for it, is to wave your hand in front of the screen. So, for LED bases displays, they look the best with the screen brightness cranked all the way up.

 My Fujitsu P1610 has LED lighting, and the dimming circuit is not done with poorly executed PWM, but the inverter makes an annoying high pitched whine when I dim the screen. But I'd rather have the high pitched whine I can only hear when it's in a very quiet room, vs. eye strain inducing PWM.

 Anyways, glad to hear you like your new 17" Macbook. Are you bringing it to CES?

 -Ed_

 

Yes, you did give me many points to consider ahead of the decision. I'll have the 17" MBP at CES. See you in Vegas, bro.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I disagree with that, Ed. CCFL backlighting is prone to hotspots and screen bleed, much more so than any LED screen should be, and especially with age._

 

I don't have enough experience comparing the two to comment on this. The LP2475w has CCFL backlighting, as does my Dell FPW2405, and both look very nice (the LP2475 being quite a bit nicer to my eyes). I'll say all of the MacBook Pros I've used (and I have used four throughout this so far) have all had LED backlight, and all were brighter than my previous laptops' displays.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *M0T0XGUY* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not so sure about that. I've compared several 20"-24" LCD's side by side, and LED backlit models consistently remain the brightest, sharpest, and most accurate in terms of color. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've also never noticed a flickering picture regardless of the brightness setting; and I'm typing on a new Macbook as we speak._

 

The following link is to a screen test that I think is supposed to help test for the flicker:

http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/~lucas/background.html

 (I can not say with any authority what the above linked test image does or does not prove.)

 I think what some are saying is that the LED backlights of some displays might have a flicker that is not clearly visible (in terms of noticing an actual flicker), but that is present enough to possibly cause fatigue and eye strain. I was afraid this was what I was experiencing; but, again, this 17" MBP has LED backlighting, too, and I'm not experiencing the fatigue/eye strain I was getting with the unibody MBP. This leads me to assume that it was probably the glare (which is what I'd now bet it was), and/or it could also be a difference in the LED backlighting between the two displays.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bangraman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Which is interesting, since what's inside is basically a bog standard low-end soundcard with the same (or in some cases even worse) electronics between the codec and the sockets certainly in terms of analog output as any number of other notebooks. (digital isn't actually that hot either, but that's another argument and really not that important as it *is* quite convenient) One aspect of Mac 'fanboyism' is that many people imbue Apple gear with superior function for no logically discernible reason. I see it everywhere since I started using them again in earnest...._

 

First of all, bangraman, it's nice to see you here again. Regarding the audio quality: it's better than I've been able to squeeze from any of my previous laptops. I've had excellent results with the optical digital out directly to DACs so far. And, trust me, if you read my original post in this thread, you'll see I'm certainly no Mac fanboy--yet. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bangraman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....And Jude, your experiences aren't unique. That's the other problem... the actual build quality of Apple equipment, not just the surface look & feel which they are masters of. The two issues for me ended up also undermining the theoretical advantage of a Boot Campable Mac (which isn't actually that convenient or compatible, and virtualisation isn't for everyone who has 'heavy lifting' Windows uses). As much as I depend on my iPods, I have to say I have a more ambivalent relationship with the Macs._

 

Regarding build quality: Yeah, I'm not sure where I'm at yet, in terms of an opinion of the build quality of these MacBooks. I loved the unibody chassis, and thought it very sturdy feeling--but then there's that link above where the guy bent his chassis by picking up his unibody MBP with one hand. The 17" MBP concerns me to some degree, especially given its rather thin display and the sheet aluminum outer shell of it. I have concerns about deforming the back of the screen (I'm not sure how founded or unfounded these concerns are), which is something I never worried about with my much more plasticky Dell Inspiron 9300. Mind you, the Inspiron 9300 was also considerably thicker and heavier than the 17" MBP, and seems tougher to me. Whereas I didn't hesitate to keep my Inspiron 9300 in my *LowePro CompuTrekker Plus AW backpack*, I am concerned about the idea of traveling with the MBP 17" in that bag, because when that pack is set down on its back, the weight of the camera gear in the main compartment is resting almost entirely on the closed laptop's lid. With the 17" MBP's thin aluminum outer shell, my concerns about denting it under such weight during travel (especially when your bags in the overhead compartments are subject to merciless stuffing and knocking) had me picking up an aluminum hard-side carrying case for it (while not lightweight, my first concern is minimizing the chance of problems and downtime).

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....I'll share a positive HP tech experience - my cousin sent his 17", middle-of-the-line laptop in for service. HP fixed it but misplaced it, so they sent him the top-of-the-line 17" model gratis, then found his laptop a week later and sent that back to him too.

 Dell was great before (I used their NBD onsite a few times in 04-05 with my Latitiude), but I agree in that I've heard nothing but bad things about Dell in the past two years._

 

My experience with Dell over the years has been, overall, very positive. There have been a couple of glitchces, both notable ones being with one model (the Dell Inspiron 8500). That was, in my opinion, a dud of a laptop for me. My first problem with that 8500 was damaging the hard drive by putting pressure on the palm rest with my palm as I was adjusting my body position while laptop computing on a couch--why they put the drive right under the palm rest, and with rather poor reinforcement above it, I have no idea. The pressure was light enough to not permanently leave any deformation on the outer case or the reinforcing bits underneath--again, just a horrible design, in my opinion. The second problem involved the worst and best of my experience with Dell. The 8500 display went out. On-site technician came to try to fix it at least three times, with no luck. (The technicians were perplexed--as was I--as they replaced pretty much the whole thing, piece by piece.) Their response was to give me a new Inspiron 9300 (which, at the time, was pretty state of the art) as a no-cost replacement, which I found to be a more than satifactory outcome; and I'd used that 9300 until my decision to switch to Mac from PC, and what also became my unibody MBP debacle.

 The only problem I can recall having with the Inspiron 9300 in the three years or so I used it was a fan that started making some noise. An on-site technician fixed it lickety-split. I felt this was a great track record for the 9300 (for me), especially in light of the fact that I did anything but baby it. Unlike this 17" MBP, that Inspiron 9300 never saw the inside of a hard-side case.


----------



## Shike

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SACD-Man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Vista for example has so many limitations and that's why I refuse to upgrade from XP._

 

Yeah? What limitations?

 If you say DRM, I'm going to hit you with a stick since that's utter BS.


----------



## olblueyez

Hey for all you die hard XP fans, Vista SP1 is out fellows, it works like a charm.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ Two of my friends have used the smallest (10.8") and largest (19") VAIOs, and while they look amazing, they were so functionally useless that both switched to another computer (ironically both Macs) after 6 months or so._

 

19" Vaio? Must be something new, afaik the biggest one is 18.4", I own one and it's a beautiful machine, has optical output, and screen that made me wet my pants when I saw it first time. They use 3 LED RGB technology in the Premium line of AW (piano black finish).


----------



## oogabooga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Andrew_WOT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_19" Vaio? Must be something new, afaik the biggest one is 18.4", I own one and it's a beautiful machine, has optical output, and screen that made me wet my pants when I saw it first time. They use 3 LED RGB technology in the Premium line of AW (piano black finish)._

 

He called it a 19" - bought it over a year ago. It was one of the first laptops with a Blu-Ray drive, and has two hard drives in RAID 1 and a built-in TV tuner. We couldn't get Linux installed on it for the life of us. Screen did look amazing though - it was HIGH-res (icons in Windows were tiny)!


----------



## oogabooga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whereas I didn't hesitate to keep my Inspiron 9300 in my LowePro CompuTrekker Plus AW backpack, I am concerned about the idea of traveling with the MBP 17" in that bag, because when that pack is set down on its back, the weight of the camera gear in the main compartment is resting almost entirely on the closed laptop's lid._

 

While I can't comment on the 17", I fly with the exact same backpack and my non-unibody 15" MBP sitting under my D300 and 5 lenses with no problems - the CompuTrekkers are awesome! 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I strongly suggest anyone considering a unibody MB or MBP visit an Apple Store location to see for yourself that the glass makes for a new caliber of glossy._

 

Yeah, but it does make movies super-yummy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 As for good colour reproduction, while LED vs CCFL is a factor, I think the more important factor is the LCD technology used. AFAIK there are three current techs - TN, MVA (or PVA), and IPS (and it's variants). In short, TN is the cheapest panel - has the fast response times gamers want but so-so colour and viewing angle; MVA/PVA is a bit slower in response time but has vibrant colour and decent angles; IPS is the photographers delight - amazing colour and a wide gamut, excellent viewing angles but most expensive of the three. IIRC all current Apple LCDs are IPS or a variant, which is one reason why they're pricey. 

 A great bargain if you can find it is the Dell 2005FPW - it's an IPS display that sold for much less than the Apple ones. I have one and love it to bits for all my Lightroom work. Later 20" models from Dell are not IPS, IIRC.

TFT Central - LCD Monitor Information, Reviews, Guides and News is a great resource for these things.


----------



## Palantiri7

Thank you for that superb, detailed post, Jude! I have been using Apple's top-of-the-line laptops since 2000, and I figure upgrade time is approaching for my 4.5 year-old 17" PB G4 which, btw, has given me flawless service thus far. The problem is that I am not too happy with the new Apple laptop options available, which includes horror-stories of apparent reliability issues. As I live in the Caribbean, there certainly ain't no Apple Store around the corner in case of trouble. Moreover, laptops from PC makers like Alienware etc., at least on paper, have specifications that are well above Apple's offerings. 

 Ah, choices. Maybe I'll be bold and try something new (which means a Vista laptop) or maybe I'll chicken out and go along the ol' Apple road again. Those alien heads do look cool, though.


----------



## Andrew_WOT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He called it a 19" - bought it over a year ago. It was one of the first laptops with a Blu-Ray drive, and has two hard drives in RAID 1 and a built-in TV tuner. * We couldn't get Linux installed on it for the life of us.* Screen did look amazing though - it was HIGH-res (icons in Windows were tiny)!_

 

Sounds like a very compelling reason for venturing into Mac platform. 
 BTW, AW with 18.4" ultra-wide screen was introduced in the end of September 2008, not sure how he could get one over a year ago. Perhaps we are talking about different models, but I certainly never heard on any Vaio with such a big screen.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for good colour reproduction, while LED vs CCFL is a factor, I think the more important factor is the LCD technology used. AFAIK there are three current techs - TN, MVA (or PVA), and IPS (and it's variants). In short, TN is the cheapest panel - has the fast response times gamers want but so-so colour and viewing angle; MVA/PVA is a bit slower in response time but has vibrant colour and decent angles; IPS is the photographers delight - amazing colour and a wide gamut, excellent viewing angles but most expensive of the three. IIRC all current Apple LCDs are IPS or a variant, which is one reason why they're pricey._

 

You're not mentioning power consumption, which is (obviously) a major factor in laptop design. I thought the Macbook LCDs were TNs?


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shike* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah? What limitations?

 If you say DRM, I'm going to hit you with a stick since that's utter BS. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Amen. This "Vista sucks" stuff is utter crap. There is nothing wrong with Vista...Vista SP1, that is. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 People just bash it because they've heard everybody else bash it. Your average joe who claims to hate Vista could not give you a single reason why they hate it, other than its different and they're too lazy to investigate & learn its features.


----------



## Nocturnal310

Vista is as stable as XP now...and i like it better due to ease of navigation.



 but if i had the money to spend..i would love to try MBP's...mainly for video editing and audio production stuff


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The 17" MBP concerns me to some degree, especially given its rather thin display and the sheet aluminum outer shell of it. I have concerns about deforming the back of the screen (I'm not sure how founded or unfounded these concerns are), which is something I never worried about with my much more plasticky Dell Inspiron 9300. Mind you, the Inspiron 9300 was also considerably thicker and heavier than the 17" MBP, and seems tougher to me. Whereas I didn't hesitate to keep my Inspiron 9300 in my *LowePro CompuTrekker Plus AW backpack*, I am concerned about the idea of traveling with the MBP 17" in that bag, because when that pack is set down on its back, the weight of the camera gear in the main compartment is resting almost entirely on the closed laptop's lid. With the 17" MBP's thin aluminum outer shell, my concerns about denting it under such weight during travel (especially when your bags in the overhead compartments are subject to merciless stuffing and knocking) had me picking up an aluminum hard-side carrying case for it (while not lightweight, my first concern is minimizing the chance of problems and downtime)._

 

While not exactly the same model, I found a 15" G4 Titanium PowerBook much sturdier than it seemed. I hauled it all over in various bags and wasn't able to kill it. When the 1GHz G4 got a little long in the tooth, I passed it onto my father. He drags it back and forth to Arizona every week or so and it's still running strong. It's around six years old now and keeps going.

 I replaced the TiBook with a white MacBook about 18 months ago. Zero problems and it goes everywhere. 

 The new aluminum MacBooks really are tempting. I nearly bought one when they were introduced, but held back because the specs weren't different from my machine and... they're Rev. A. I've learned to buy mature Apple products - they do iron out the kinks and later models (like the 1GHz TiBook) are usually much more robust. Also, I think the next model will be running the i7 and have four cores. I'll hold out until then.

 As for Windows 7, how sure are you that it'll be out any time soon? Vista was supposed to be out in 2003.


----------



## Audiofiler

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ The 17" MBP concerns me to some degree, especially given its rather thin display and the sheet aluminum outer shell of it. I have concerns about deforming the back of the screen (I'm not sure how founded or unfounded these concerns are), which is something I never worried about with my much more plasticky Dell Inspiron 9300. Mind you, the Inspiron 9300 was also considerably thicker and heavier than the 17" MBP, and seems tougher to me. Whereas I didn't hesitate to keep my Inspiron 9300 in my *LowePro CompuTrekker Plus AW backpack*, I am concerned about the idea of traveling with the MBP 17" in that bag, because when that pack is set down on its back, the weight of the camera gear in the main compartment is resting almost entirely on the closed laptop's lid. With the 17" MBP's thin aluminum outer shell, my concerns about denting it under such weight during travel (especially when your bags in the overhead compartments are subject to merciless stuffing and knocking) had me picking up an aluminum hard-side carrying case for it (while not lightweight, my first concern is minimizing the chance of problems and downtime).._

 

I recommend this wonderful outer case and this keyboard protector for use with your new MBP.


 The clear case adds additional stability and rigidity to the overall form as well as protects against knicks and damage to the unit. The keyboard cover is removable and washable. It protects against impurities, dust, etc from entering the unit Via the keys. (cover may too help in the event of a spill)

 Hope this helps. 

 Congrats Jude on the purchase and migration to Mac, I made my switch almost two years ago and am loving my MBP. Have not re-imaged the unit once, it is awesome. Great bit perfect sound feeding a Dac, sweet OS, and still looks brand new because of the outer case and keyboard cover.


----------



## Shike

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *oogabooga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Apple LCDs are IPS or a variant, which is one reason why they're pricey._

 

Those aren't for laptops though, that's only Apple Cinema displays. I tried to help a friend calibrate his MBP matte and the color was all over the place. Compared to my Dell Vostro 1500, the color was horrid (and the Dell itself I considered bad).

 Also, the Dell you mentioned AFAIK is a panel lottery.


----------



## Spasticteapot

My next laptop may well be a base-spec MacBook. As much as I like ultraportables'....well, ultraportability, it's nice to have a built-in optical drive and not have to make a choice between horrible battery life and low performance. I can't say I like the keyboards, though - why on earth do they have those stupid flat keys?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Amen. This "Vista sucks" stuff is utter crap. There is nothing wrong with Vista...Vista SP1, that is. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 People just bash it because they've heard everybody else bash it. Your average joe who claims to hate Vista could not give you a single reason why they hate it, other than its different and they're too lazy to investigate & learn its features._

 

The reason people buy Windows is because they _don't want to learn something new._ It's sort of like the slushbox of the computing world - there are better alternatives all around you, but most people can't be bothered to use them.

 I'm afraid I also fall into this category. In Win98 through XP, all of the settings and folders are in the same places. In Vista, I can't find anything, and perpetually need to use "help".

 However, my major complaints are as follows:

 "Are you sure you want to open this folder?"

 "Are you sure you want to run this program?"

 "Are you sure you want to be using this OS which requires a high-end PC and new pirepherals because your old ones aren't supported?"

 Linux FTW.


----------



## grawk

Don't knock the flat keys until you spend time with them. The macbook keyboard is one of the best laptop keyboards I've ever used.


----------



## ozz

I wish Apple would offer a keyboard with a trackpad and make it bluetooth
 then I would get a mini for the HTPC.


----------



## grawk

You can get anyone's bluetooth keyboard, not just apple's...


----------



## MusicallySilent

I now have a previous generation 2.4ghz macbook pro and so far I have had zero problems with the device the only "problem" I had was a kink in networking where other devices on my network weren't appearing, a change of workgroup on all machines and a couple reboots later and it worked fine, so far the device itself is pretty flawless for me.


----------



## oogabooga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Shike* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those aren't for laptops though, that's only Apple Cinema displays. I tried to help a friend calibrate his MBP matte and the color was all over the place. Compared to my Dell Vostro 1500, the color was horrid (and the Dell itself I considered bad).

 Also, the Dell you mentioned AFAIK is a panel lottery._

 

Yes, I should have clarified, only the Apple desktop LCDs are IPS. 

 It was the 2007WFP which was the panel lottery, the 2005's were all IPS.


----------



## Towert7

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Raez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Moral of the story: PC > Mac_

 

x2.

 More options out there in terms of hardware with the pc market. I buy the hardware *I* want, not what apple *thinks* I _should_ want.

 I always get a laugh at what apple users have to put up with to own an apple. Jude, your experience is no different from my friend's.


----------



## Iron_Dreamer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I always get a laugh at what apple users have to put up with to own an apple. Jude, your experience is no different from my friend's._

 

Yep. I also laugh at the idea of paying $3500 for a laptop, at least in 99.99% of cases.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't knock the flat keys until you spend time with them. The macbook keyboard is one of the best laptop keyboards I've ever used._

 

If its anything like the alu apple keyboards, it's wonderful. I'm using the wireless one with a Vista box and the USB version with an XP box.


----------



## Wodgy

Yes, the chicklet keyboards are amazing. They're as good as the old ThinkPad keyboards used to be... short key travel and firm. Don't let the odd looks deceive you.


----------



## ozz

Those new trackpads are great and almost makes me want to upgrade
 but will wait on snow leopard.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Towert7* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_x2.

 More options out there in terms of hardware with the pc market. I buy the hardware *I* want, not what apple *thinks* I should want.

 I always get a laugh at what apple users have to put up with to own an apple. Jude, your experience is no different from my friend's._

 

And I get a laugh at what windows users have to put up with for the priviledge of running windows, and what linux users will go through to run windows.

 For me, running OS X is the closest thing to "don't have to worry about it" of any operating system I've experienced in the last 27 years. Is it perfect? No of course not. It's just damn good. If you don't fight it, and just spend a little time getting used to it, it's very intuitive. It works as a cohesive whole. From the BSD underpinnings to the gui. You can control the system remotely without ever using a gui, or you can control everything from the gui, without ever opening up terminal. The only problems I've ever seen come from trying to fight how it does work, and make it do what it wasn't designed to do. There are kinks with the new mini-display port, but I'd bet they get resolved. There have been a lot of kinks, just like there are with any computer.


----------



## Skrying

I currently own a Dell XPS M1330. I understand some of the nice features and really the build quality advantages that are gained with a premium unit. I spent the money on an XPS because I wanted a solid body, a great looking screen, and good warranty service. To me, more than anything, when purchasing from a computer OEM the warranty service is key. Most major companies have a higher end premium model that places the units on all very similar build quality levels.

 I have considered purchasing an Apple notebook before but I don’t think I will any longer. I wasn’t aware their warranty service was so lacking. Those are major issues to anyone who spends time on the road or can’t have a break down. My laptop is my computer, I don’t own a desktop anymore. So any down time is a major, major issue for me. I paid more for warranty coverage than any other aspect of the system, and at $350 on the AppleCare I’d hope you would have gotten a similar level of service.

 They seemed to treat you well within the confines of their service system, which is good. Refunding, covering shipping costs, etc. But no on-site service is the real issue here.

 I can understand the OS X stance. I don’t understand the Windows Vista one (which is superior in every way compared to XP, in my opinion) but that’s not really a big deal here. I think people need to appreciate opinion in this regard and that people want different things from their user environment. People who often talk about "problem free" end up blowing my mind because to be honest the only OS that isn't in my experience is Linux (still rough, very). Windows and my limited exposure to OS X both seem very good, just different.

 However, you seem to paying so much for your system that… it just doesn’t seem really worth it. Not only do you have to pay the premium on the unit but then you’re nailed into other extras and areas that simply aren’t worthwhile to me. Take for instance the miniDisplayPort. There is no reason Apple should be forcing their users into this. It is technically identical to DisplayPort at the electrical level and it does nothing legitimate to save on size. It honestly just seems like a grab to sell dongles.

 So in the end I’m glad you’re happy with the unit. I also thank you for being honest and specific about your experience. A real consumer review, if not intentionally for that purpose, if there ever was one. But you put the final nail in the coffin for me with regard to buying an Apple product. OS X just doesn’t seem worth the other issues.


----------



## grawk

I don't think it's a desire to sell dongles, I think it's an obsession with thin. Making laptops thinner has obviously been a design goal since apple got into the portable computer game.


----------



## Skrying

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't think it's a desire to sell dongles, I think it's an obsession with thin. Making laptops thinner has obviously been a design goal since apple got into the portable computer game._

 

But it really doesn't help in that regard. The DisplayPort port is a similar size to USB and certainly thinner than the ethernet adapter port. So where does this help? No where. There just seems to be no point to it at all.


----------



## globiboulga

Vista and PC bashing really gets tiring. it works. And I don't worry about Vista a minute. Most of the time, it's the actual felxibility of the windows ecosystem and the cheer numbers of options in terms of software and hardware that tend to cause OS issues. You can't have both a 'free' environment and full stability (you also can't test all PC builds). Apple is more restricted so less likely to have software issues and the limited number of products helps developer when they test. Does it really mean that OS X is better or more stable? I have had no BSOD with Vista EVER (been a year and a half), so I would not say so, but yeah, I would say that statistically there are more chances for a PC to crash than a mac, just because of that ecosystem difference. Blaming that on Vista is amusing (and I am not saying Micro$oft is a philantropic company either)...

 Anyway, Jude's experience just tend to show that Apple is like any other organisation really and that it's down to individual preferences and situation.

 Personally I don't like OS X. I thought about switching last year - I like change - but I hated the new MBP as soon as Apple decided to go glossy only and it seems I was right to get my Vaio Z series instead (although I'd love an optical out)

 So far so good (touch wood).


----------



## martook

I hope you haven't missed the MacBook Wheel... it's not really related to this thread, but very funny IMHO! The video must have been a lot of work, but totally worth it. Not sure if Mac users will appreciate it quite as much as us normal people though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Apple Introduces Revolutionary New Laptop With No Keyboard | The Onion - America's Finest News Source


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wish Apple would offer a keyboard with a trackpad and make it bluetooth
 then I would get a mini for the HTPC._

 

Yes please!
 Would be an ideal companion for a Mac mini.


----------



## Currawong

Interesting, relative to this thread, the 17" MacBook Pro just announced can be ordered with a matt screen with no glass. Now if I could do that for my next 15" MBP, I'll be most pleased.


----------



## IceClass

Dang....and I just bought a new 17" MacBook Pro a week ago!


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IceClass* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dang....and I just bought a new 17" MacBook Pro a week ago!



_

 

Oh well!
 Most of us hold off buying new Apple gear the last weeks before these Apple events, especially when a new unit is expected. As with the 17" MacBook Pro now, since it was left out on the previous MacBook Pro update...


----------



## IceClass

I just wrap the purchase of new computer gear into a new project.
 I had to get supplied in hardware and software by deadline but I'm sure I'll upgrade by the next project.

 Glad to see the 17" retains a firewire port and offers an alternative to those %$#@ glossy screens.


----------



## M0T0XGUY

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IceClass* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dang....and I just bought a new 17" MacBook Pro a week ago!




_

 

Return it?


----------



## oogabooga

Return it! Sure, there'll be a few Rev. 1 bugs, but that supposed 8-hour battery life would win me over. When I graduate (hopefully this fall), I'm gonna pick me up a new 17"!


----------



## Bones13

Someone mentioned the Matte 17 inch Unibody MBP, but $150 for the privelege of getting the screen all the photo/image professionals are looking for.

 I was hoping for a MacPro upgrade this week, but that did not happen. I did order one as currently made, and chose the same HP monitor that Jude mentioned after a lot of research.

 We run a lot of Macs at my house, but none of the very new stuff, couple of MBPs, a 2 and half year old Black Macbook is travelling with my daughter in Paris for her junior year in college. She took the initial plunge into Mac-hood, as an artist, she wanted it.

 I am a previous pc-builder-hobbiest who became disenchanted when I had to start calling for XP install codes everytime I changed too much hardware, or replaced broken stuff. Pretty much became a mess when the first issues of Vista rolled out, they had 1 or 2 installs only on them before you had to spend 2-3 hours to get new codes.

 I do get AppleCare, and even in my podunk little southern town, there is an independent Apple dealer (not an Apple store, so no "geniuses") which is quite happy to perform warrenty repair. One of the nicer parts of warrenty Apple work is that you need no reciepts, or documentation. They read the S/N from your machine, and get down to business. My 2 year old MBP has only needed replacement of one of the speakers, my wife's 1 year old MBP did need a new screen at 9 months. The Black MacBook has never needed anything other than one OS reinstall after she hosed something in the file system. All my kids have learned the importance of backing up their music and data files to USB drives.

 On the other side of the coin, my 17 year old spent most of our Christmas week at the beach prying off one of the new PC viruses. "go.google.com" and "XP antivirus" both nasty things, prevent you from downloading and running antivirus software that can do the disinfecting. He had to do some research, and downloading on another laptop, then rename the new antivirus program to even load it on his machine. And remember his machine is used with an "image" from the high school, uses enterprise virus protection etc.

 Who knows whats best. Apple is more expensive, but then the hardware is usually better, and sleeker than comparable Windows machines. It is funner though, that much I know.

 I am glad you got your system under control Jude, welcome to the Mac-side.


----------



## tseryan

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *IceClass* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dang....and I just bought a new 17" MacBook Pro a week ago!



_

 

I'm pretty sure the Apple Store will have no problem with an exchange. I've read frequently about people doing this after new revisions. You're within your 14 day return period anyways.


----------



## Feather225

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Raez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Moral of the story: PC > Mac_

 

Maybe in terms of the market share, but certainly not as user friendly and safe.


----------



## Feather225

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *martook* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hope you haven't missed the MacBook Wheel... it's not really related to this thread, but very funny IMHO! The video must have been a lot of work, but totally worth it. Not sure if Mac users will appreciate it quite as much as us normal people though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Apple Introduces Revolutionary New Laptop With No Keyboard | The Onion - America's Finest News Source_

 

Dude, the wheel seriously not suitable for typing hey...


----------



## immtbiker

I took the plunge in November when my Dell XPS was rendered useless by Vundo_5. I lost everything that I didn't have backed up.

 I bought an iMac 24" for home in November and a Macbook Air for the road, last month.

 I never had to look back. I bought a 685 page book "The Missing Manual that should have come in the box" by Pogue Press/O'Reilly (that and help from Grawk and others on this forum).

 Even with the learning curve, I am extremely happy. I am using the Optical out with VLC through a borrowed Duet and also a Microdac/amp of my choice combo and a terabyte of .flac files (not iTunes) on an external HD.
 Time Machine is an ingenious invention for backup.

 Less concern about viruses and intense web copy/paste features and a compatible Microsoft Office program, and I'm set.

 Safari loads webpages almost twice as fast as XP/Vista.

 Maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't had one lockup or blue screen of death in 3 months. And guess what, when I close my Air, and reopen the lid, it actually works and goes back to where I was. With my PC's that was a crapshoot.

 For loading up my iMod with alac files, I use the 32 gigs Fat 32 system partition with Bootcamp and use dbPoweramp and Ephpod.

 I have to use a Dell laptop for work, so I still stay current in PC world.

 To each, his own, I suppose.


----------



## grawk

Switch from VLC to cog or play


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Switch from VLC to cog or play 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Do you reckon it makes a difference?


----------



## oogabooga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Less concern about viruses and intense web copy/paste features and a compatible Microsoft Office program, and I'm set._

 

This is one place I've found Mac a bit lacking, as Excel 2008 seems to crash anytime I open one of my larger datasets. The new version of OpenOffice seems to handle Office files pretty well though.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Safari loads webpages almost twice as fast as XP/Vista._

 

Get the new Firefox 3.1 beta - it sports a new Javascript engine that loads webpages 2x as fast as Safari!!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't had one lockup or blue screen of death in 3 months. _

 

It's actually this rather polite "grey screen" that explains that you need to reboot, and how to do it, in a number of languages. I've made it come up a couple of times in the almost two years I've had my MBP.


----------



## KGB

Ouch. Never had any of the problems described with my 1st gen 15.4" MBP. Guess you should've waited for later revisions that fixed all the issues.


----------



## krmathis

Nice to see more Head-Fi'ers switching to Mac's.


----------



## atomiccow

Quote:


 Maybe in terms of the market share, but certainly not as user friendly and safe. 
 

Well its only safer if you don't know how to take care of your PC. Viruses are not a threat if you work consciously and actually know what your PC is doing. 

  Quote:


 Apple is more expensive, but then the hardware is usually better, and sleeker than comparable Windows machines. 
 

I find it hard to believe hearing this from a "previous pc-builder-hobbiest." I think anyone who kept up with computer hardware, even if he/she were a Mac purist, would have to agree with me that hardware in Macs are behind. I cannot believe Mac Pros are still touting Nvidia 8800 gt cards as being high end when they've already ended production. Maybe they plan to leave the desktop market entirely soon but still, any "pc-builder-hobbiest" should easily be able to build a PC with more power and at a cheaper cost than a "comparable Apple machine". 

 I really despise it when people say Mac and PC. Apple PCs are PCs. The only difference is the OS. Internally Apple PCs are 100% PC hardware. I don't see how people can still be calling Apple PCs, Macs when they even advertise so proudly Intel Core 2 Duo inside and Nvidia powered discrete graphics. Why don't people start calling Linux machines Linuxes and Vista machines, Vistas?

  Quote:


 Safari loads webpages almost twice as fast as XP/Vista. 
 

Windows XP/Vista doesn't load web pages, Microsoft Internet Explorer loads them. Ya, its slow, but thats what Firefox is for.

 I have to agree that Apple design is pretty but their products are, as always, form over function. If you go the non-Apple side, its not hard to get both form and function, all for cheaper too.


----------



## Spad

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atomiccow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to agree that Apple design is pretty but their products are, as always, form over function. If you go the non-Apple side, its not hard to get both form and function, all for cheaper too._

 

Man, you really get wound up about this stuff, doncha? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've been using Macs for 20-odd years now, and while there used to be a large difference in cost, it's not so great anymore. When you factor in the Mac's higher resale value there's almost none.


----------



## atomiccow

I guess you can say I'm a pretty big computer hardware enthusiast. I never factor resale value into a computer since I typically own them until it is time to buy a new PC (typically in 4 years time). I usually do upgrades such as changing graphics card or adding storage if necessary in two years which is typically before or right after hardware standards change so such upgrades are cheaper. By the time that I need an entirely new PC, selling the old PC would return very little since, most likely, the market would have made a shift to the aforementioned new standards and probably even be on the verge of yet another shift. I don't see this being any different for an Apple PC. In fact I would think that the Apple would be worth even less after the same time period considering that it cannot be upgraded midway. Even an aesthetically perfect Apple PC would be worthless to buy after that time period.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atomiccow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to agree that Apple design is pretty but their products are, as always, form over function. If you go the non-Apple side, its not hard to get both form and function, all for cheaper too._

 

..and you have of course live with one over time, to know how it functions when you get used to it.


----------



## Spad

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atomiccow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In fact I would think that the Apple would be worth even less after the same time period considering that it cannot be upgraded midway. Even an aesthetically perfect Apple PC would be worthless to buy after that time period._

 

Macs aren't really for computer hobbyists. Most of us use them simply as tools to support other interests. As for your guess about resale value, it's easy enough to check. Do so and I think you'll be surprised. 

 I typically keep my laptops for about 2.5 years, selling them a few months before the AppleCare expires so that the gaining party still has warranty protection. I always get about half, and often more, of what I originally paid. I get a discount when I buy them and do my own RAM and HD upgrades, which substantially reduces the initial cost. And the computers invariably look and perform like new. A two year old pristine Mac laptop typically resales for more than similarly configured new PC laptop, and for good reason. Place the two machines side-by-side and I'll bet even _you_ would prefer the Mac. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Disclaimer: I have a long standing, substantial investment in Apple stock.


----------



## Hung0702

Thinkpad W500

 Intel T9600 (2.8GHz)
 15.4" 1920x1200 MATTE display
 ATI Mobility FireGL V5700 512MB VRAM
 4GB RAM (mushkin 996643)
 Fingerprint Reader
 320 GB HDD
 DVD Burner
 Card Reader
 ExpressCard Slot
 9-cell battery

 $2,034 (without Lenovo's frequent sales, which was 38% for the W500 last time)

 $200 For me to LEGALLY install a LEGALLY purchased copy (serious) of OSX on your laptop.
 $350 for a 3 year warranty (I'll give you my number and will inform you in case I get a new number, call me any time in the next 3 years)

 $2,584 for a Thinkpad W500 running OSX (well, I might add) with a better video card for graphic editing (drivers will be custom, so updates will come as people develop them). Purchasing 4GB RAM after market and giving away the stock RAM is cheaper than selecting the 4GB option from Apple, AND mushkin is currently the best DDR3 RAM manufacturer.

 YOU CAN CALL ME ANYTIME FOR THE NEXT 3 YEARS AND I WILL SERVICE YOU.

 IF THE LENOVO WARRANTY COVERS ANY DEFECTIVE PARTS, I WILL COVER SAID DEFECTIVE PARTS.

 I don't care what you prefer, XP, OSX, Vista, 7 (running perfectly on my $350 Acer Aspire One 150), I just want your money.


----------



## Nick 214

I'm still rocking with an iBook G4... No Intel junk here!


----------



## Spad

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick 214* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still rocking with an iBook G4... No Intel junk here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I've got one too! Mine hasn't been used in a long time, but it's in like new condition. I have several over models as well. I just can't part with some of these things. Dumb I know.


----------



## guitarman19853

I was considering switching... but now Windows 7 looks very promising.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick 214* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still rocking with an iBook G4... No Intel junk here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The old G4 portables are really nice.
 I myself have PowerBook G4 that I use from time to time. Its smooth.


----------



## crazeazn

i have a powerbook g4 that doesnt hold a charge, but i still use it daily


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nick 214* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm still rocking with an iBook G4... No Intel junk here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

At the shop we still have a working G3,G4 and an Intel MACBOOK all far from
 junk and 2 dell laptops running xp not yet junk but nowhere as smooth running
 as the MAC's.


----------



## DOUGHN

im using iBOOK G4, plan to upgrade to Macbook Pro Unibody..

 i also have a PC machine, i prefer my MAC...

 join our forum (Philmug.ph) Philippine Macintosh User Group


----------



## littletree76

Many users who favor PC mentioned that PC platform provides more choices and user upgradable parts. But that only mean spending more time, afford and money in trying similar crappy products built for PC and back to square with one of them. Nowadays there aren't much difference among competitive products in term of performance and cost which warrant the time, effort and money. Thanks to evolution and competition in computer industry particularly standardization of hardware interfaces.

 The question of PC or Mac come down to pros and cons of open system against close/integrated system. This decision is heavily influenced by application of the computer, certainly most business applications and even desktop publishing applications do not need high performance of graphic system as much as computer games (that is why game boys always prefer PC over Mac).


----------



## atomiccow

Quote:


 But that only mean spending more time, afford and money in trying similar crappy products built for PC and back to square with one of them. 
 

Products built for PC? Do you really know what is inside an Apple PC? Apple is an OEM. They assemble computers, they don't manufacture them. There is no hardware built for Apple. They buy from PC component manufacturers. Why do you think they advertise Intel Core 2 Duo, ATI Radeon, and Nvidia discrete graphics... Apple doesn't even manufacture their LCD panels. 

  Quote:


 The question of PC or Mac come down to pros and cons of open system against close/integrated system. 
 

How is a Macbook more integrated than a laptop from Dell, HP, Asus, etc?


----------



## MoSXS

I've been using a Mac now for nearly 2 years. I have to say that buying it was the worst thing I could have done regarding computer purchases. 

 I'm now on my 3rd unit thanks to build quality issues. If someone tells me Apple has better build quality than PC manufacturers I can't help but laugh hysterically. Even the unibody MacBook (and Pro) have softer feeling tops and bottoms than my plastic HP notebook. 

 Then theres the price performance ratio. The Dell Studio XPS 13 walks all over the unibody MacBook in terms of price and performance. $1299 for a faster processor, dedicated graphics, and a better OS? Yes please. Look at 15.4" systems. For $1,099 at newegg you can get an Asus with a 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB of RAM, 250GB HDD, memory card reader (8 in 1), HDMI, eSATA, full size ExpressCard, LED backlight, 2 year warranty (Asus also typically offers 1 year of accidental coverage if you register the system), 30 day "zero bright dot LCD" warranty, and a 1GB GeForce 9650M GT. It also comes with a carrying case. According to the specs its also only 1.1" thick. Newegg.com - ASUS N50 Series N50Vn-X1B NoteBook Intel Core 2 Duo P8600(2.40GHz) 15.4" Wide XGA 4GB Memory 250GB HDD 5400rpm DVD Super Multi NVIDIA GeForce 9650M GT - Laptops / Notebooks Oh and you don't need any sort of adapters to hook up to standard displays. Amazing! I absolutely HATE DisplayPort. Apple only used mini DisplayPort for one reason and one reason only. DisplayPort itself is completely royalty free. By using their own connector, they get to pocket the entire $29.99 they charge you for that adapter. 

 Then theres OS X. Don't even get me started on how much better Vista and Windows 7 are. OS X requires the user to give up WAY too much in order to have a stable and functioning environment. You don't get even 1/4 as many software choices as Windows, plus the software that people generally consider "equivalent" is anything but. Just look at DVD Player compared to WinDVD, or Toast compared to Nero. No contest at all, Windows software is better by a long shot. 

 I just wish I had gotten this 3rd system, second replacement, before the economy tanked. That way I could have sold it and washed my hands clean of Apple computers. But now its impossible to find a buyer who doesn't want to low ball you on price. 

 I love my iPods and my iPhone, but the computers are junk.


----------



## ajstark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MoSXS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Then theres OS X. Don't even get me started on how much better Vista and Windows 7 are. OS X requires the user to give up WAY too much in order to have a stable and functioning environment. You don't get even 1/4 as many software choices as Windows, plus the software that people generally consider "equivalent" is anything but. Just look at DVD Player compared to WinDVD, or Toast compared to Nero. No contest at all, Windows software is better by a long shot. 
_

 

I use a Dell and I am planning on switching to a Mac Desktop at some future time.

 The Mac OS is based on UNIX OS. The UNIX OS is a very robust operating system and very secure. The large Sun and HP server use UNIX. You gain security by using administrative accounts for administrative actives and normal accounts for everything else. All the large data centers adhere to this principle. 

 The problem with windows is Microsoft was concerned about features and not security. Microsoft blurred the line between what is an administrative task and normal task that is why virus writers can attack the system. 

 My Wife's computer got infected with a virus - two times. Both times McAfee could not remove the virus. She was running McAfee with an update virus definition. I spent two days worth of time fixing the problem. I have better things to do do with my time that removing virus from Wintel computers - that is why I am switching to Mac's .

 Here is the perfect example of what I am talking about. http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/ptech/0...dup/index.html


 Al


----------



## krmathis

This has turned into just another Mac (OS X) vs. PC (MS Windows) bashing thread! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 ** Shakes head **


----------



## koruki

I have a Core i7 PC dual booting Vista x64 and windows 7 beta.

 &

 A Macbook Pro, Happy with both! No need to bitch guys lol


----------



## Wmcmanus

Another happy MBP "17 matte user reporting in. I've never had any problems with mine whatsoever, and it's been a couple of years now. I'm on my second MBP only because the first one was stolen by some scum bags in Florida whom I caught in the act, then castrated, then decapitated, and then dumped their bodies down in the Everglades. To make things look good for insurance purposes, I had to dump the MBP as well. (Awakes from dream... no, I didn't actually catch them in the act... dang it!)

 Funny story (maybe not to you, Jude, but still) about the Genius! I still remember seeing that for the first time at a Mac store and thinking to myself, "What in the world were they thinking with _that_?" I mean, really! The people who come in for help from the so called "Genius" team are in need of support, and obviously, they won't be able to help every such customer on the spot. That label is just bound to piss a lot of people off, and thus totally backfire, or so I thought to myself.

 No surprise that the Head-Fi guy was a true Genius and gentleman (not that we don't have our fair share of morons around here too!).


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


 Both times McAfee could not remove the virus. She was running McAfee with an update virus definition. 
 

You should change her anti-virus, NOD32 and Kaspersky are a few good ones.

 I'm running NOD32 + Spybot on XP Pro SP3, haven't gotten a virus yet. (And I download some shady things) Though I admit I only use my computer for schoolwork and entertainment, so I assume for others security is an even bigger issue.


----------



## ajstark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should change her anti-virus, NOD32 and Kaspersky are a few good ones.

 I'm running NOD32 + Spybot, haven't gotten a virus yet. (And I download some shady things) Though I admit I only use my computer for schoolwork and entertainment, so I assume for others security is an even bigger issue._

 

I know. She is resistant to changing anything on her computer. 

 Her computer is about 7 years old. When I replace my computer I will give her my old computer. I have Kaspersky running on it.


----------



## craiglester

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This has turned into just another Mac (OS X) vs. PC (MS Windows) bashing thread! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 ** Shakes head **_

 


 I agree, you know I think we need a separate forum for all these threads, they too often devolve into tit for tat arguments. There is room for discussion on the topic, but it seems to polarize people too much.. shame.

 My experience is probably atypical to they Head-Fi norm.. but here's my 2cents..

 I'm a PC, I've been using them since Windows 3.1, and I'm comfortable with the whole windows ecosystem. For me, it just works. All my software works, I'm sensible with my choices of hardware, and I'm happy with it. We have 4 Pc's in the house, on our network, and in the last year I've maybe spent 3-4 hours total on admin. We get it working, and leave it be. no need to fiddle with it if it works eh 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That said, I made a lot of animation shorts and hypercard stuff on macs when I was at university, back in the late 90's. It wasn't a terrible experience, but when time to buy a computer came, I bought a pc, mostly based on cost. Back then macs were REALLY expensive compared to PC's.

 Would I buy a Mac today? No, I have everything I need on my PC. Would I like to try OSX on my PC? Yes.. I'd love to see OSX released for generic PC hardware. I know it can be fudged together, but the driver support is woeful, and frankly, it's not really worth it _for me_. I've tried linux twice.. but it took way too long to get even half set up (driver issues are horrendous).. a big waste of time f_or me_.

 I'm currently in the process of buying an ipod touch (which seems to have gone UP in price on Amazon in the last week.. grr), my first new ipod, so I'll be joining the apple camp, but i'm not giving up my PC anytime soon.

 oh, and I don't like glossy screens. Had one on a Laptop a while ago, didn't like it at all.. spent all my time making sure the lighting was just so, to minimize glare.. bleh.. Still I sold it for a 5/6ths what I paid for it, so that's not bad. Go craigslist


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ajstark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know. She is resistant to changing anything on her computer. 

 Her computer is about 7 years old. When I replace my computer I will give her my old computer. I have Kaspersky running on it._

 

x2 on the Nod32...very highly-rated stuff. McAfee is overhead-heavy junk, in my opinion. Spybot only works if you know how to answer the prompts that TeaTimer gives you...too many people unknowingly defeat any type of client firewall or detection app by blindly clicking "accept" to the prompts that get thrown up. 

 For free stuff, Eeye Blink is *really* good. In the rare case of an infection, I first suspend the EXPLORER.EXE and WINLOGON.EXE processes with (free) Process Explorer, then do a full scan with MalwareBytes Anti-Malware (free as well). Then, because I'm paranoid, I manually power-cycle the PC and run a full scan for rootkits with F-Secure's Online Blacklight Scanner.


----------



## MoSXS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ajstark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use a Dell and I am planning on switching to a Mac Desktop at some future time.

 The Mac OS is based on UNIX OS. The UNIX OS is a very robust operating system and very secure. The large Sun and HP server use UNIX. You gain security by using administrative accounts for administrative actives and normal accounts for everything else. All the large data centers adhere to this principle. 

 The problem with windows is Microsoft was concerned about features and not security. Microsoft blurred the line between what is an administrative task and normal task that is why virus writers can attack the system. 

 My Wife's computer got infected with a virus - two times. Both times McAfee could not remove the virus. She was running McAfee with an update virus definition. I spent two days worth of time fixing the problem. I have better things to do do with my time that removing virus from Wintel computers - that is why I am switching to Mac's .

 Here is the perfect example of what I am talking about. Downadup virus exposes millions of PCs to hijack - CNN.com


 Al_

 

I know all about how Mac OS X is UNIX Certified. But being UNIX doesn't make it better. It's just far too limited. 

 OS X is only good if you're really willing to make a lot of sacrifices. A lot. 

 And as far as not getting viruses, run Windows update regularly and stay away from websites you probably shouldn't be looking at anyway.


----------



## immtbiker

Love my iMac 24"...Love my MacBook Air...
 Have a love/hate relationship with my Dell 630 laptop.

 Blondes, brunettes, and redheads. Different amounts of maintenance yielding totally different results.


----------



## grawk

I haven't run into the "lots of sacrifices", honestly. Just 1, and it's not somethign I care about anyway, and that's gaming. I have a wii for gaming.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MoSXS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know all about how Mac OS X is UNIX Certified. But being UNIX doesn't make it better. It's just far too limited. 

 OS X is only good if you're really willing to make a lot of sacrifices._

 

Limited how? What kind of sacrifices? Serious question here.


----------



## gorlen

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Limited how? What kind of sacrifices? Serious question here._

 

games and softwares maybe, e.g. the msn version is so low in the mac platform, cant video conference the pc users at all.


----------



## grawk

MSN? HEH


----------



## immtbiker

Vundo_5 took down my computer within 4 days. Lost everything. According to Trend Micro's statistics, it took down 19 million computers, worldwide, within 10 days. 
 Lost everything that wasn't backed up (stuff I had since Windows '94 1/2).

 PC-cillin and Trend Micro could do diddley squat about it (heaven knows they tried).

 Have all of my PC music programs on my PC partitions on the Mac. With that ability, and the ability to use Microsoft Office for Mac between my PC's and my Macs, I don't see many downsides.
 Almost anything that you want to do on your PC can be done on a Mac, plus some.


----------



## craiglester

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gorlen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_games and softwares maybe, e.g. the msn version is so low in the mac platform, cant video conference the pc users at all._

 

Really? well I'd say that's Microsoft's fault there. Mind you Everyone I know has MSN / Windows Live, so its never been an issue for me.. I use it every day to talk to my family and friends. Tied in with Hotmail, calendar and the other windows live stuff it's pretty darn useful, and free.. free is always nice


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Limited how? What kind of sacrifices? Serious question here._

 

I was waiting on that answer also since I made the switch over 2 years ago
 no limitations I know of plus I don't have to micro manage anything.


----------



## brotherlen

sacrifices? Thats a bit of a strong word, maybe priorities and trade offs. If your willing to trade bleeding edge tech for stability, or at least the ability to know who to blame when something fails. Windows = is it a driver, a hardware component vs. another component, the OS, etc... not a bad thing, just something to be mindful of. Mac = doesn't work, must be the OS, I know off the bat who is at fault, it's usually hardware failings instead of drivers/OS issues though. (melted magsafe adapter, slot loading disc player destroying my discs) I'm don't mind the bashing so much, I'm a fanboy of neither and use a little of everything to give it a try, Linux Studio, FreeBSD, Mac, Vista, 7 Beta (I really like), Just give a solid reason, like audio equipment why it's good/not so good. Besides it sucks, it just works, etc... Seems to be the two staple arguments for the fanboys in both major camps. Since this is a forum of headphones, shouldn't the focus be on what set up gets a cleaner signal? (optical out, no need for ASIO, vs. amount of internal soundcards and devices) It's seriously making me look at my gaming set up for maybe a macbook and more head-fi gear...at the moment I have a MBP (santa rosa) the biggest complaint I have is it has been harder to get good info on system specs versus PC/Windows based hardware. i.e. Looking up how much Ram my laptop could run. I think at the time apple only offered 2GB, however it will read 4GB, it can only utilize 3GB. After working at a computer store, I began to resent "mac heads" because of this. Nobody had a straight answer, I'll even say, maybe I didn't know where to look. I'm going to switch completely so I can consolidate all my stuff onto a single platform. (which one?) I sure have rambled enough, I didn't even say anything, so in closing, Bumble Bee Tuna!


----------



## craiglester

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Almost anything that you want to do on your PC can be done on a Mac, plus some._

 

This brings up the question.. when an Apple manufactured Intel PC is running Windows.. is it still a Mac?

 I'd say no. It's a Windows PC, hardware manufactured by Apple.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I mean we're always being told a Mac isn't just the OS, or the hardware, it's both together, right?


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *brotherlen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ I sure have rambled enough, I didn't even say anything, so in closing, Bumble Bee Tuna!_

 

Sorry Charlie, Bumble Bee only uses the best Tuna (whose to say that Charlie isn't good, anyway? Years of therapy won't help Charlie now).
 That's what they tell us. But what they don't tell us, is that an 8 oz. can of tuna, became a 7 1/2 oz can, which then became a 7 1/4 oz. which I now see is a 6 oz. 
 We are being deceived. At least in audio, I can make my own decisions on what size cans I want to use, plastic or not.

 Heavy stuff.


----------



## dmashta

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Limited how? What kind of sacrifices? Serious question here._

 

limited in terms of configurability and choice of hardware and software. with macs, you're pretty much sacrificing that flexibility.

 it's like buying integrated or separate components. an integrated gives you a convenient one-box solution with minimal fuss, plug it in and start enjoying your music. with separates, you'll have to worry about matching individual components, interconnects, this and that. but it allows unlimited possibilities for you to mix and match and tweak to your heart's content.

 or like driving, some prefer automatic for the ease and convenience while others enjoy the control and manual involvement of...well...manual. in the end, both will get the job done and get you to your destination. i just think driving manual is more fun.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dmashta* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_limited in terms of configurability and choice of hardware and software. with macs, you're pretty much sacrificing that flexibility.

 it's like buying integrated or separate components. an integrated gives you a convenient one-box solution with minimal fuss, plug it in and start enjoying your music. with separates, you'll have to worry about matching individual components, interconnects, this and that. but it allows unlimited possibilities for you to mix and match and tweak to your heart's content.

 or like driving, some prefer automatic for the ease and convenience while others enjoy the control and manual involvement of...well...manual. in the end, both will get the job done and get you to your destination. i just think driving manual is more fun._

 

As to that statement most of the tweakers I know and listen to on these forums prefer neither OSX or Windows they use one of the many distros of
 Linux saying what you have said but about both platforms.


----------



## brotherlen

making tuna, after this post...

 as far as tweaking goes, you can always do a homebrew mac and have the best of both worlds. If your a pro active builder/tweaker then it's a completely different ball park. Lets face it though, the average Joe Sixpack doesn't really keep up with his computer like people that are a bit more on the tech savvy side, same with a majority of users on the two major platforms. If your using Linux, you have to tinker a bit, Ubuntu is very user friendly, but it's another set of vocabulary that people aren't familiar with. Kernel? Isn't he in the military? Does he make chicken? Not really...... I'll finish after tuna


----------



## dmashta

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As to that statement most of the tweakers I know and listen to on these forums prefer neither OSX or Windows they use one of the many distros of
 Linux saying what you have said but about both platforms._

 

agreed but as someone else said, linux is just nerding a bit too far (for me). i like my choices but i don't enjoy complexity for complexity sake. i like mixing and matching my components but i'm no DIY-type.


----------



## brotherlen

Tuna was consumed and tasty. 

 Congrats on your purchase Jude, sorry to hear about your experience at the Mac store, sounds like you made out good in the end though, almost forgot what this thread was about.


----------



## ajstark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MoSXS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know all about how Mac OS X is UNIX Certified. But being UNIX doesn't make it better. It's just far too limited. 

 OS X is only good if you're really willing to make a lot of sacrifices. A lot. 

 And as far as not getting viruses, run Windows update regularly and stay away from websites you probably shouldn't be looking at anyway._

 

We do all that, update virus definitions, update windows and do virus scans.

 The bad guys have gotten very sophisticated. They have their web pages linked to legitimate sites. When you reach their page and click on a link a dialog box is launched. The dialog box tells you that your computer is infected. The dialog box says you need to scan your computer. When you click ok it downloads a virus. 

 The virus starts popping up the dialog box with the same message. They cover the screen and it becomes impossible to work. 

 My wife is not technically sophisticated. She was easily fooled by the dialog box. I took admin rights away from her after she got the computer virus. The second time she got it was easier to clean computer - the virus could not spread to the whole computer it was stuck in her temporary internet folder. Of course taking away admin rights prevents her from doing many admin activates - but I do those activates for her under a proper admin account. 

 What surprises me is two of my friend caught the same virus. One is working on his Doctorate in computer security. The other friend can program a fix income risk management system. Both of these people should have know better but their computers were infected.

 I blame Microsoft for these issues. Microsoft should have locked down there O.S. . Windows is a flawed OS from a security point of view. 

 MoSXS what type of limitations are you talking about. This is a serious question and I would like to know. Is it the lack of games or gaming? Is it something else?


----------



## dmashta

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ajstark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_We do all that, update virus definitions, update windows and do virus scans.

 The bad guys have gotten very sophisticated. They have their web pages linked to legitimate sites. When you reach their page and click on a link a dialog box is launched. The dialog box tells you that your computer is infected. The dialog box says you need to scan your computer. When you click ok it downloads a virus. 

 The virus starts popping up the dialog box with the same message. They cover the screen and it becomes impossible to work. 

 My wife is not technically sophisticated. She was easily fooled by the dialog box. I took admin rights away from her after she got the computer virus. The second time she got it was easier to clean computer - the virus could not spread to the whole computer it was stuck in her temporary internet folder. Of course taking away admin rights prevents her from doing many admin activates - but I do those activates for her under a proper admin account. 

*What surprises me is two of my friend caught the same virus. One is working on his Doctorate in computer security. The other friend can program a fix income risk management system. Both of these people should have know better but their computers were infected.*

 I blame Microsoft for these issues. Microsoft should have locked down there O.S. . Windows is a flawed OS from a security point of view. 

 MoSXS what type of limitations are you talking about. This is a serious question and I would like to know. Is it the lack of games or gaming? Is it something else?_

 

just cause some people know better doesn't mean they always follow best practice nor are they immune to bad judgement and mistakes. guess what, those prestigious investment banks with all their top MBAs are the ones in need of bailout now. i can see the benefit of security through obscurity or 'dumbing down' (locking down if you wish) things to protect the user but not if it's at the expense of flexibility and control or having someone decide what's best for me. in that case, i'll gladly take the risk.

 as convenient as it is to target microsoft over its track record of security issues and virus oubreaks, it just isn't a very valid arguement. macs are no less susceptible. you have to consider the global percentage of windows users vs mac to realize why such incidents are relatively rare when it comes to macs. in which case you might as well argue that macs are more secure because they are much less popular but then that isn't really saying much about the platform itself, is it? and i'd argue that as macs continue to gain in popularity and new users, the security problem could be much worse given the higher percentage of 'less savvy' users who grew up with this false sense of security.


----------



## ajstark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dmashta* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_as convenient as it is to target microsoft over its track record of security issues and virus oubreaks, it just isn't a very valid arguement. macs are no less susceptible. you have to consider the global percentage of windows users vs mac to realize why such incidents are relatively rare when it comes to macs. in which case you might as well argue that macs are more secure because they are much less popular but then that isn't really saying much about the platform itself, is it? and i'd argue that as macs continue to gain in popularity and new users, the security problem could be much worse given the higher percentage of 'less savvy' users who grew up with this false sense of security._

 

To a certain extent what you say is true. But with the MAC/UNIX it is much harder to damage the operating system because the OS is run at higher privileges that a normal users account. A normal user does not have the rights to update the OS only admins can do that. 

 For example, my son is gamer. In order to play a game he needs admin rights on his PC. This implies that the game has modified the OS in someway. Why does a game need admin rights to function? This is a flaw in the OS - the OS should never let some third party update it. 

 Microsoft has always added features at the expense of security. They are an easier target to crack that a UNIX system.


----------



## M0T0XGUY

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dmashta* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_limited in terms of configurability and choice of hardware and software. with macs, you're pretty much sacrificing that flexibility.

 it's like buying integrated or separate components. an integrated gives you a convenient one-box solution with minimal fuss, plug it in and start enjoying your music. with separates, you'll have to worry about matching individual components, interconnects, this and that. but it allows unlimited possibilities for you to mix and match and tweak to your heart's content.

 or like driving, some prefer automatic for the ease and convenience while others enjoy the control and manual involvement of...well...manual. in the end, both will get the job done and get you to your destination. i just think driving manual is more fun._

 

The hardware argument I mostly understand. Some people like full customization, and Macs are, for the most part, locked down in this regard. 

 The software argument, though, is off-base (in my experience). Almost every program I've used on a Windows computer has a native Mac alternative. Some programs, like iPhoto and iTunes, either run considerably smoother on OSX, or even improve upon their Windows equivalents; and X11 generally takes care of the rest. So far, I've never run into a problem with software compatibility.


----------



## ozz

Well since I am not a gamer or tweaker the Mac and the Dell have served me well as for limitations the mac has allowed me to do anything
 I need or want to do. I will probably buy a third computer and try Linux.
 I want every OS to succeed because it makes the competition try harder
 which equals a better computing experience for the consumer.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MoSXS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I know all about how Mac OS X is UNIX Certified. But being UNIX doesn't make it better. It's just far too limited. 

 OS X is only good if you're really willing to make a lot of sacrifices. A lot._

 

Limited and make a lot of sacrifices? Please explain... 

 I have been running Mac OS X for 5 years, and certainly don't think its limited or that I have made a lot of sacrifices. Had to sacrifice secure audio ripping the first two years, but since then nothing that I am aware of.


----------



## digitalfrog

I agree with MoSXS, OSX is good if you are willing to make lot of sacrifices.

 Since I switched, what I do with my computer is much more effective - I had to sacrifice been a mini systems administrator. Now I'm back to be a user ...


----------



## krmathis

^ Like doing real work, instead of updating the antivirus application.


----------



## romanesq

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *digitalfrog* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree with MoSXS, OSX is good if you are willing to make lot of sacrifices.

 Since I switched, what I do with my computer is much more effective - I had to sacrifice been a mini systems administrator. Now I'm back to be a user ..._

 

Not sure I understand this but I will say that it's somewhat baffling seeing folks go down the old mac vs. windows stuff.

 Macs are now on the latest intel core duo chips and you can run Windoze very nicely should you need to with an odd program here and there. Some folks are doing that but less often as I understand they feel more productive on the Mac OS.

 For obvious reasons.


----------



## craiglester

What obvious reasons? I fins myself as productive on a pc as a mac, when i HAVE to use one. In fact, because i know it better, I'd say i'm a little MORE productive on a PC, So where is all the increased productivity coming from?

 All my AV software etc run and update automatically, as does my backup, defrag and other system utilities. My PC is fast enough for me not to even notice when that's happening anyway.

 So what's the productivity sapping administration people are losing all this time over?

 Maybe it's waiting for the interminably long start up time for itunes? That really IS poor compared to the Mac version. I wonder how deliberate that is?


----------



## romanesq

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *craiglester* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What obvious reasons? 

 So what's the productivity sapping administration people are losing all this time over?

 Maybe it's waiting for the interminably long start up time for itunes? That really IS poor compared to the Mac version. I wonder how deliberate that is?_

 

Hey sorry but I wouldn't know how long it takes to open an application, iTunes or another on windoze as I avoid it wherever possible. You'll have to ask other folks on their productivity experience on the Apple OS.

 Helped a buddy out not long ago getting remarried and needed to clean up his machine. It was utterly taken over by <moderator edit> and such. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I've used both platforms going back to the mid 80s but now will only use windoze if needed on my MacBook Pro. 

 Start up? What's that? I have open a dozen applications and just shut the lid to my notebook and they are all available instantly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you are talking about booting up, I think I will do that twice this year.


----------



## Kirosia

I find this whole OS war thing infuriatingly hilarious. You have insecure hypocrites on both sides blasting the other for talking smack, then proceeding to do the exact same thing. And the few guys who ARE being reasonable just end up getting trolled. It's obvious an experienced person can be highly productive on either OS, just as an inexperienced one can screw up on both. 

 I have Windows. My neighbor has a Mac. She asked me for help once, and even though I didn't know the OS, I tried to help. (Wasn't that hard to grasp honestly) There was no condescension, mudslinging or knife-fights instigated by either person; no animosity at all. We even ate pretzels afterward. (No churros, those are for ignorant *****)


----------



## dmashta

limited in terms of choice and variety. i don't doubt that for any task you need to perform on a mac, you can always find an app to let you accomplish said task. but just cause you happily settled on a few available apps and don't feel hindered doesn't mean you weren't limited to begin with. you can't ignore the fact that for every application on the mac, there are tons more to choose from in windows. if i lived in a small town where the only car dealership is a ford, i would be perfectly fine driving a ford and won't feel limited in any sense of the word...just like everybody else driving a ford around town. now contrast that to living in a big city with multiple dealerships and all of a sudden, your choices open up. you can shop around for the best price, best gas mileage, performance, etc.

 we all know apple dropped firewire on all macbooks other than the pro. so duet owners looking to upgrade their laptops are forced to go with a MBP if they want to continue using the duet. now you might be upgrading to a MBP anyway so you don't see a problem but that doesn't mean your options and upgrade path weren't any less limited or fixed.

 the result of of all these limitations is rather apparent. the macs crowd is a homogenous bunch. everyone has their shiny, aluminum macbooks, running itunes, iphoto, imail, or iwhathaveyou. it's like a cult of drones.

 needless to say, less options mean less complexity and simpler decisions which you can interpret as higher productivity. there are many who choose to trade in complexity of the big city for a simpler life in a small town. nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Al4x

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I find this whole OS war thing infuriatingly hilarious. You have insecure hypocrites on both sides blasting the other for talking smack, then proceeding to do the exact same thing. And the few guys who ARE being reasonable just end up getting trolled. It's obvious an experienced person can be highly productive on either OS, just as an inexperienced one can screw up on both. 

 I have Windows. My neighbor has a Mac. She asked me for help once, and even though I didn't know the OS, I tried to help. (Wasn't that hard to grasp honestly) There was no condescension, mudslinging or knife-fights instigated by either person; no animosity at all. We even ate pretzels afterward. (No churros, those are for ignorant *****)_

 

nice comment, 

 imagine the vast armies youd have if it turned to war!

 i have microsoft stuff just cause its cheaper and the whole games/program compatibility, 
 ive never used a mac cause of the cost so cant do any bashing [it does seem like im missing out tho] and i no noone with one

 anyway, bash away


----------



## dmashta

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ajstark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To a certain extent what you say is true. But with the MAC/UNIX it is much harder to damage the operating system because the OS is run at higher privileges that a normal users account. A normal user does not have the rights to update the OS only admins can do that. 

 For example, my son is gamer. In order to play a game he needs admin rights on his PC. This implies that the game has modified the OS in someway. Why does a game need admin rights to function? This is a flaw in the OS - the OS should never let some third party update it. 

 Microsoft has always added features at the expense of security. They are an easier target to crack that a UNIX system._

 

i don't disagree and i do question the way microsoft does many things. but the security arguement that so many people conveniently use just isn't that valid in my opinion. using your example, windows is a popular gaming platform because microsoft chose to support gamers and make their OS more accessible to third-party game developers. inenvitably, they expose themselves to the risks that come with it, be it installing custom drivers or whatever i dunno. that's just par for the course. but if microsoft went the other way, in effect locking down their system and making it no less easy to support gaming than on the mac, then won't you say those complaints are irrelevant.

 linux/unix is inherently more secure because they're usually tailored and built for specific tasks. unlike windows, which is more of a general purpose OS supporting different users for different purposes, on linux you don't have misc processes or services running. almost everything there was compiled and built for a purpose and as needed. you can say that windows try to be too many things for too many people and not surprisingly, that is its biggest strength and weakness.


----------



## britishbane

uh... did anyone look at that link in romanesq's post?


----------



## digitalfrog

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *britishbane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_uh... did anyone look at that link in romanesq's post?_

 

I did now - it's ****, this has to be removed....


----------



## immtbiker

Instruction sets aside, can anyone tell me why Safari opens a webpage almost twice as fast as IE?
 That is extremely useful, especially when cruising Head-Fi


----------



## Kirosia

Why are you using IE?


----------



## immtbiker

Because my XP laptop is corporate and our diagnostics won't work with any other GUI.


----------



## Kirosia

So you can't use Firefox or Opera? That.. definitely sucks.


----------



## immtbiker

No. But I've heard some serious complaints about Mozilla too!


----------



## craiglester

Safari on windows is horrible.. Firefox is way better. Chrome - meh I use IE only when compatability demands it.. thankfully not that often.

 Come to think of it.. does anyone choose3 to use IE? I see the EU is getting all tense about it being bundled again.. I wonder if they'll get upset about Safari being on all the Macs.. hmm


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No. But I've heard some serious complaints about Mozilla too!_

 

Firefox is very stable for the most part. There *was* one particular day a few weeks ago when the browser kept crashing. I think it was gremlins.


----------



## immtbiker

Gremlins can attack anytime, anywhere. 

 I would never hold a browser responsible for a gremlin attack. I may be demanding, but I'm fair.


----------



## MoSXS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Limited and make a lot of sacrifices? Please explain... 

 I have been running Mac OS X for 5 years, and certainly don't think its limited or that I have made a lot of sacrifices. Had to sacrifice secure audio ripping the first two years, but since then nothing that I am aware of._

 

Well, I can think of a few sacrifices I'd have to make if I didn't have a PC and I didn't have Windows installed on my MacBook. 

 First would be good DVD playback. I like movies as much as I like music. Good DVD playback is extremely important. DVD Player in OS X is far far behind paid solutions in Windows and even the built-in decoder in Vista, due to the lack of bitstream decoding support in OS X. The quality of Tiger and earlier versions of OS X's DVD Player was just flat out awful. Head over to AVS and do some searching through some older threads for screenshot comparisons. 

 Second sacrifice is good disc burning software. OS X's built-in software is no better than Windows. However, 3rd party apps like Toast are woefully behind Nero in every way possible. 

 Third, games. OS X "ports" are usually well behind the Windows originals, even if they're native OpenGL like UT2k4 and Doom 3. I know its developers not porting their games that is one of the problems. But the real problem is that Apple does absolutely nothing to bring their OpenGL support into the modern era and they do almost nothing to help game developers optimize games for OS X. And then with all of the platform transitions Apple has had, customers and game developers alike have to worry about how long that game will actually be able to run and how long it will be supported or need support. On Windows I can still fire up my original Quake CD, or my first pressing of Myst for Windows, or even Mechwarrior 2 (DOS or Windows 95 edition). Yet with Mac OS, some stuff released as recently as 4 years ago won't run on modern systems. 

 That applies to regular software as well. If you're a customer you have to worry about how long that piece of software you're buying will continue to run through the platform changes and OS upgrades. As a software developer you have to wonder just how much you want to invest in developing that product because you don't know how long it will be usable or how many times you'll have to update it to keep it running. 

 That brings me to the point of lack of software. Choices are extremely limited in OS X. Look at media players. In OS X you have iTunes, Songbird, VLC and what? And let's all be honest, iTunes is pretty much the only choice anyway. Look at firewalls with outbound controls. OS X's built-in firewall offers no such feature. Windows Firewall does. Plus Windows has an endless selection of good free firewalls that will do all you want. With OS X you basically have to rely on the built-in Firewall for incoming protection and your only choice for outbound is Little Snitch, which is easily circumvented. 

 Let's look at hardware too. You have to make significant sacrifices when it comes to hardware selection. You can't build the system yourself. The only machine they offer that is in any way upgradeable starts at $2,799 and only offers 1 open PCIe x16 and 2 PCIe x4 slots. Which cuts out probably 99% of all internal upgrade and add-in possibilities. USB device support is extremely limited as well. And look at MP3 players. You have the iPod and... the iPod? Sure theres a fair amount of other players out there that just work as USB drives where you drag and drop your music. But you miss out on the quality players, like the Zune. 

 Now, one could make the argument that some of these problems could be rectified if developers and manufacturers would support the platform. But as a developer or manufacturer you have to think about a few things. Just how many operating systems would you have to support? Would it be good to support as far back as Panther, or Tiger? And if you only support Tiger and/or Leopard, do you allow PPC support? And if you do have PPC support, G4 support or G5 only? How many updates will you have to issue over the product life cycle to keep up with Apple's platform changes? If you release a fantastic product now that can still be used 4 or 5 years from now, will it still be supported with the OS changes Apple will make in that time? 

 Please don't try to say "Apple advancing technology is a bad thing?" because, let's face it, despite Apple's claim of "200 new features" in Leopard, very little REAL change was made compared to Tiger and most of the new features it got, like somewhat better DVD playback and thumbnail previews of everything, have been in Windows since the Win98 days. 

 The real problem is that Apple only cares about Apple and not about 3rd parties. That will continue to drive developers and customers alike to Windows and that will continue to mean that people who do buy into the Mac platform have to make sacrifices.


----------



## grawk

Plex handles every media file and format I throw at it just fine, better than anything I've used with windows.

 Disk utility has done everything I've needed from a disc burner.

 I don't play games on my mac, I have a wii for that.

 Any given software title on mac is as well supported as any given software title on windows. And mostly mac software is more intuitive, because there are standards for how the interface works.

 I'm glad you prefer windows, what's the problem again?


----------



## MoSXS

Quote:


 Plex handles every media file and format I throw at it just fine, better than anything I've used with windows. 
 

Get FFDShow in Windows. That + Media Center = unmatched. If you want MKV support, get CCCP. It'll bring in FFDShow as well. 

  Quote:


 Disk utility has done everything I've needed from a disc burner. 
 

It's extremely limited and, in my experience, not the most reliable way to burn discs. Toast is definitely better but not anywhere near as good as Nero. 

 Plus you actually have choice in Windows. Let's say I download the newest Ubuntu. imgburn is pretty much THE choice for burning or making an ISO. 

  Quote:


 I don't play games on my mac, I have a wii for that. 
 

Well some of us prefer real games. OS X is terrible for that. You need Windows. 

  Quote:


 Any given software title on mac is as well supported as any given software title on windows. And mostly mac software is more intuitive, because there are standards for how the interface works. 
 

I've been using OS X for almost 2 years now. Leopard most of that time and Tiger for several months before that. In that same time I've used XP and Vista. 

 I honestly have never once seen how OS X or OS X software is "more intuitive". Never. I can think of several ways its un-intuitive, such as how even with official uninstallers, a bunch of files and folders still get left behind by application uninstalls, requiring you to hunt through several folders in various directories to fully delete everything. That includes uninstallation via AppZapper and AppDelete as well. Where in Windows you run the uninstaller and then a quick couple of clicks in Ccleaner will take care of everything. Another very unintuitive way OS X works is folder browsing. Let's say I'm browsing the folders in my iTunes library. If I'm scrolled half way down in the window and see a folder I want and open it, it opens just fine. However, if I press the back button, it takes me back to the top of the previous window. In Windows I get taken back to the spot I left off. Ironically, if I leave a window scrolled half way down and close that window, the next time I open it, it will open where I left off. But if I go into another folder in that window then hit back, I'm taken back to the top and have to scroll ALL the way down again. And why do folders get alphabetized along with files? Why can't I have it set like Windows where the folders get organized on top of the files? 

  Quote:


 I'm glad you prefer windows, what's the problem again? 
 

The problem is that Mac owners (myself included at one point until I "saw the light" so to speak) act as if Mac OS X is the best thing since sliced bread. In reality, it still has a LOT of catching up to do compared to Windows. Oh and what happened to live previews in the Dock? Apple brought those in after Microsoft demoed them, but took them out in Leopard. Why?


----------



## grawk

Lots of people act as if their computer solution (or their audio solution, or there car solution) can cure cancer. Big deal, get over it. It's a computer. There's no need to slag something you don't like. You don't like it, we get it. Bye bye.


----------



## craiglester

MoSXS don't forget you can always put Windows on your Mac, then you can run all the other software you might need.

 One day, in a perfect world, we'll all be on the same OS. and It'll run any legacy software, even good old CP/M and Amiga OS.. Now wouldn't that be something.. everything run virtualized, no having to choose one or the other, no reboots..


 It's kinda amusing to me that MS office for the Mac sucks compared to the PC version and itunes for the PC sucks compared to the Mac version.. it's almost as if they were doing it deliberately badly on the "opposition" platform... 







 hehe Grawk, come on now.. lets not be disingenuous and pretend you don't care. Obviously anyone posting in here does. And being dismissive with the Bye Bye comment, well that's a bit of a cop out isn't it? Especially after MoSXS did come up with some pretty valid points.


----------



## ozz

When people realize that an operating system is a tool and not a religion
 we will all get along better chose the tool that works best for you and the
 job at hand will work better it also helps if you have a complete understanding of the system.


----------



## grawk

I disagree that his points are valid, but it's hardly worth arguing. He gives strawman arguments. That's fine, he doesn't like mac.


----------



## ozz

I'm afraid with Apple's popularity increase more thread bashing will probably take place why I can not understand its just one of many tools.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *britishbane* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_uh... did anyone look at that link in romanesq's post?_

 

Which link?
 He have two posts in this thread, and neither have a link in them as far as I can see.


----------



## craiglester

It was removed yesterday by a mod.


----------



## krmathis

^ Ah, no wonder I did not find it.
 Guess it was not worth following anyway, since it was enough to get it removed...


----------



## grawk

it was just a link to naked teens


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *craiglester* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One day, in a perfect world, we'll all be on the same OS. and It'll run any legacy software, even good old CP/M and Amiga OS.. Now wouldn't that be something.. everything run virtualized, no having to choose one or the other, no reboots.._

 

...don't forget at that point, we will also have "World Peace".


----------



## craiglester

World Peace.. I wouldn't go that far..

 Actually the virtualization things isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

 Licensing issues would stop it more likely than technical issues, which is a shame.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it was just a link to naked teens_

 

What's wrong with these Mods


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it was just a link to naked teens_

 

Ok, did not miss out of much anyway.


----------



## gilency

I use both windows and mac. Both have their place but for stability and ease of use the mac wins hand down in my book. I have owned Sonys, Gateways, HP's and several gave me trouble with hardware defects. We currently have 5 macs, 1 HP and 1 Fujitsu at home. The Fujitsu is falling apart, the HP has broken twice, repaired once and now is non functional.
 So if you complain about mac defects, better make sure to explain that any brand can have them.
 And no, I am not an Apple fan boy although I think most of their products are great. I elected the BB Storm over the iPhone and so far have no regrets about it.


----------



## Kirosia

Sadly, consumer PC laptops tend to pretty cruddy in the quality department. Business notebooks are often much better built, but are very expensive. (Though still in the same price range as equivalent Macs, I believe)

 As for home PCs, if possible you should always build your own. (Or contract someone to build it for you) Not only do you get to choose your preferred quality hardware, you also get a clean copy of the OS.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sadly, consumer PC laptops tend to pretty cruddy in the quality department. Business notebooks are often much better built, but are very expensive. (Though still in the same price range as equivalent Macs, I believe)

 As for home PCs, if possible you should always build your own. (Or contract someone to build it for you) Not only do you get to choose your preferred quality hardware, you also get a clean copy of the OS._

 

That only works for towers so for notebooks you should spend the money for
 quality build.


----------



## Kirosia

Yeah, I know, that's why I referenced the business notebooks.


----------



## EYEdROP

Ive had my unibody macbook pro for 3 months now and it has been generally good to me. For me, the computer is almost effortless to use. It does get hotter than I like, and the drivers for windows work but are half-assed. But build quality and reliability wise it has been awesome. The windows side works fine with everything except the trackpad is funky, though the new driver update came out and mostly fixed that. The videocard drivers are also not as fast as they could be, but you can use hacked drivers. Of course OSX is ridiculously fast and stable with high quality software and seamless, uncluttered user integration. Plus the UNIX core is compatible with Linux applications with X11, And of course the OS X Terminal is a great thing to have. 

 Ive personally had an awesome experience so far. I think the quality control sucks for some people though. Apple needs to stop outsourcing to China, even if it means increasing costs. Having to get 2 or 3 replacements is simply unacceptable and not the Apple I used to know 4 years ago.


----------



## davidhunternyc

I wonder if your experience at the Genius Bar was in New York City. I have a white MacBook and have had to go to the Genius bar a couple of times. The first time was because my screen was slightly seperated from the frame and condensation was building up. The Genius I met too was absolutely rude and blamed it on me. I too had to escalate matters to the store manager who took care of the problem. The second time had to do with the fact my external hard drive, when plugged into my USB port, wouldn't work. They at first said that I damaged my USB port but since I had another one, I should forget about it. What? I asked them how I could've damaged it if I haven't used it yet. My computer was only 3 months old. Anyway, yes, the Genius people could be a little nicer. I don't mind sending my computer away so for now on, I just deal with phone support. So far, everything else has been working perfectly.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *davidhunternyc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder if your experience at the Genius Bar was in New York City. I have a white MacBook and have had to go to the Genius bar a couple of times. The first is time was because my screen was slightly seperated from the frame and condensation was building up. The Genius I met too was absolutely rude and blamed it on me. I too had to escalate matters to the store manager who took care of the problem. The second time had to do with the fact my external hard drive when plugged into my USB port, wouldn't work. They at first said that I damaged my USB port but since I had another one, I should forget about it. What? I asked them how I could've damaged it if I haven't used it yet. My computer was only 3 months old. Anyway, yes the Genius people could be a little nicer. I don't mind sending my computer away so for now on, I just deal with phone support. So far, everything else has been working perfectly._

 

Wow. Any tech support manager worth a flip would have been escorting him out the door before he finished his first sentence.


----------



## davidhunternyc

Well, in the first case, a tech guy took my computer away for a few minutes and they supposedly just snapped it back together. The condensation just went away on its own. The USB port was just loose and they fixed that too. Now I have had the computer for almost 2 years, incident free.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *davidhunternyc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder if your experience at the Genius Bar was in New York City. I have a white MacBook and have had to go to the Genius bar a couple of times. The first time was because my screen was slightly seperated from the frame and condensation was building up. The Genius I met too was absolutely rude and blamed it on me. I too had to escalate matters to the store manager who took care of the problem. The second time had to do with the fact my external hard drive, when plugged into my USB port, wouldn't work. They at first said that I damaged my USB port but since I had another one, I should forget about it. What? I asked them how I could've damaged it if I haven't used it yet. My computer was only 3 months old. Anyway, yes, the Genius people could be a little nicer. I don't mind sending my computer away so for now on, I just deal with phone support. So far, everything else has been working perfectly._

 

Horrible customer service!
 ...luckily I have not ran into anything like that. We are not blessed with an Apple Retail Store, and hence no Genius Bar, up here though..


----------



## davidhunternyc

I honestly really thought it was a New York City thing but I guess not. Jude and I had a similar experiences. Maybe it's because they are overworked, underpaid, and that the stores are too busy. I don't know, I work in a restaurant and I am swamped all of the time and I always try to put my best foot forward.


----------



## ozz

Have nothing but great things to say about the APPLE STORE in the GALLERIA in Houston TX.


----------



## MusicallySilent

My mac experience has gone well so far, build quality on this machine continues to blow me away, it is pretty good even sans unibody.

 Only issues so far-
 -Bootcamp and OSX Clocks vary which causes issues when there is no internet to fix them

 -Sound drivers make odd beeping and static noises in windows but not OSX, so im gonna update drivers later.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MusicallySilent* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My mac experience has gone well so far, build quality on this machine continues to blow me away, it is pretty good even sans unibody.

 Only issues so far-
 -Bootcamp and OSX Clocks vary which causes issues when there is no internet to fix them_

 

Wild...you wouldn't think it would matter. You just use an NTP server for Windows, I guess?


----------



## atbglenn

Most of my systems are PC's but I do own an Intel based Mac Mini which I love. I just wish it were easier to upgrade the memory. I don't like the idea you have to use a putty knife to open it up.


----------



## roastpuff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *atbglenn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most of my systems are PC's but I do own an Intel based Mac Mini which I love. I just wish it were easier to upgrade the memory. I don't like the idea you have to use a putty knife to open it up._

 

The Mac Mini was designed to be a closed system, with no user interference at all. The other systems have easily upgradeable memory slots. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The Macbook even makes upgrading the hard drive easy...


----------



## rasterscan

My switch my Macs (about 3 years ago) has been great at every level, from hardware to customer support


----------



## Rob T

I bought my first Mac (an iMac 24") in November.

 Let's just say that I do not plan on ever owning another PC. I couldn't be happier with my rock solid Mac.


----------



## jeffreyj900

I just bought my first Mac a couple of weeks ago. Bought a MacBook Pro with 512mb on the video card, 4GB Memory, and 320 GB Hard Drive. I have been very impressed. I bought VMWare Fusion 2 as well. Funny... I find myself trying to use the mouse pad on my HP laptop like the MacBook Pro's. I really like that feature of the Mac. I have been VERY pleased with it so far.


----------



## jsaliga

I became a Mac user almost three years ago when I bought a 24" iMac. I loved the design and the footprint. I'm a IT solution architect working mostly in the Wintel space, so having a Mac system that can run Windows and Microsoft applications natively on the hardware was a big plus. I have no interest whatsoever in the raging debate over which is better.

 A couple of weeks ago my iMac blew up...literally. I was working, replying to a customer email, when there was an unexpected snap, cackle, and pop (I call it the Rice Crispies meltdown). This was followed by a small fireball shooting out of the back of my system and the smell of burning silicon. The system is shot. For now I am using my 17" HP laptop...but I already miss the larger display of my iMac.

 I have been shopping for another desktop since then, and have ruled out another iMac. Why? It isn't that I wasn't happy with my last system, but the value proposition is not as good as it used to be. And with video cards now supporting HDMI, using a larger 1080p LCD HDTV as a computer monitor is a realistic option and is worth considering.

 I have decided to buy a new Dell Studio Slim desktop. With an Intel Core 2 Quad processor and 8GB of memory there isn't an iMac sold that is close to this level of performance since Apple is a generation behind on Intel processors and chipsets (only offering Core 2 Duo CPUs and a max of 4GB of RAM). I will pair the Dell with a Samsung 32" 1080p LCD HDTV that has 30,000:1 dynamic contrast and a 5ms response time. This system (PC and HDTV) with a 1TB SATA disk and BD-ROM drive sells for about $500 less than a topped out 24" iMac with everything. I have done some trials using my laptop and found that a 32" display is about as large as I can use at 1080p resolution. Any larger and I would really need to go to 2500 x 1600 resolution with a smaller dot pitch or text would be too large at a close seating distance. So there is a fine line.

 The display is here right now but I am waiting on Dell to build and ship my new PC. It should be here in the next week or so.

 --Jerome


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jsaliga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I became a Mac user almost three years ago when I bought a 24" iMac. I loved the design and the footprint. I'm a IT solution architect working mostly in the Wintel space, so having a Mac system that can run Windows and Microsoft applications natively on the hardware was a big plus. I have no interest whatsoever in the raging debate over which is better.

 A couple of weeks ago my iMac blew up...literally. I was working, replying to a customer email, when there was an unexpected snap, cackle, and pop (I call it the Rice Crispies meltdown). This was followed by a small fireball shooting out of the back of my system and the smell of burning silicon. The system is shot. For now I am using my 17" HP laptop...but I already miss the larger display of my iMac.

 I have been shopping for another desktop since then, and have ruled out another iMac. Why? It isn't that I wasn't happy with my last system, but the value proposition is not as good as it used to be. And with video cards now supporting HDMI, using a larger 1080p LCD HDTV as a computer monitor is a realistic option and is worth considering.

 I have decided to buy a new Dell Studio Slim desktop. With an Intel Core 2 Quad processor and 8GB of memory there isn't an iMac sold that is close to this level of performance since Apple is a generation behind on Intel processors and chipsets (only offering Core 2 Duo CPUs and a max of 4GB of RAM). I will pair the Dell with a Samsung 32" 1080p LCD HDTV that has 30,000:1 dynamic contrast and a 5ms response time. This system (PC and HDTV) with a 1TB SATA disk and BD-ROM drive sells for about $500 less than a topped out 24" iMac with everything. I have done some trials using my laptop and found that a 32" display is about as large as I can use at 1080p resolution. Any larger and I would really need to go to 2500 x 1600 resolution with a smaller dot pitch or text would be too large at a close seating distance. So there is a fine line.

 The display is here right now but I am waiting on Dell to build and ship my new PC. It should be here in the next week or so.

 --Jerome_

 

Considering what you do, I would think that you would want to be looking at a Mac Pro, not an iMac.

 Scary stuff with your iMac exploding like that.


----------



## jsaliga

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Considering what you do, I would think that you would want to be looking at a Mac Pro, not an iMac._

 

I have no need for workstation class performance. I don't run graphics intensive applications such as CAD/CAM nor do I need tons of memory. In my line of work the main desktop applications I use are Microsoft Visio (for solution design work) and the Remote Desktop Client in order to connect to customer systems and my lab environment.

 I work mostly with enterprise server products and I have a lab/development system with dual quad core Xeons and 48GB of memory, running Windows Server 2008 x64 Enterprise Edition with the Hyper-V role installed. This box is host to about 17 virtual servers running various IT solutions.

 I do run VMWare Workstation on my desktop because I have several virtual desktop machines that are setup with specific software and VPN profiles that I need to do work for certain customers. But I doubt I will require more than 8GB of memory for the forseeable future.

  Quote:


 Scary stuff with your iMac exploding like that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 

Absolutely! I've seen machines go up before but never like this. I had to hit it with a fire extinguisher just to be on the safe side. If it had to happen then I am glad it happened while I was home (this system was in my home office). It's not unusual for me to leave my desktop running for long stretches of time, even when I am away from my desk. I am going to rethink that practice, however.

 --Jerome


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jsaliga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A couple of weeks ago my iMac blew up...literally. I was working, replying to a customer email, when there was an unexpected snap, cackle, and pop (I call it the Rice Crispies meltdown). This was followed by a small fireball shooting out of the back of my system and the smell of burning silicon._

 


 Well you just beat any work stories about computer meltdowns that I could come up with. You'd been a legend on Youtube if you could have captured your iMac/turbofan exhaust on video. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jsaliga* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Absolutely! I've seen machines go up before but never like this. I had to hit it with a fire extinguisher just to be on the safe side._

 

Haaa! Even better.


----------



## nvkid909

have to agree with jsaliga on the value point... however, most people who buy macs (pro) want the best spec, maybe to show off a little, at least to feel a bit smug. there _are_ great deals to be had if you find some mac specialist / wholesalers, i got mine (2.2ghz / 2gb / 120gb mbp) for £800. but then i am coming from a fairly old / lesser spec windows machine.


----------



## shootermcgaven2

how come the mac mouse only has 1 botton? YouTube - MacBook Air Ad (Parody)


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shootermcgaven2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_how come the mac mouse only has 1 botton? YouTube - MacBook Air Ad (Parody)_

 

The track pad is 1,2,3 and 4 finger control plus the whole pad is a click bar
 go to the apple site and watch the tutorial on it and it will explain all the functions or better yet go to an Apple store and try one out.


----------



## immtbiker

I believe it was a joke, ozz


----------



## grawk

yah, just a tired one that wasn't ever really funny.


----------



## woof37

Lighten up, grumpy gus-es.


----------



## ironeisnna

Im sorry for your bad experience Jude. I hope that you will continue enjoy your 17" more and more during the next months (and years!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). Thank God I didn't have any of your problems when I got my 15inch one last Month... I really love it. Macbooks are the pinnacle of laptop design. And of course Leopard is a joy to use.


----------



## csommers

I'm glad to see they are now offering a matte option on the new unibody 17, even if you do have to pay $50 extra for it. No clue why Apple axed the matte option on the regular 15, it was VERY popular.


----------



## Gouki

Ha, just another sucker saying "I belong somewhere". 

 I saved so much money with PCs, that I used the rest for worthy stuff like hobbies, holidays etc.

 Apple can't come close to any desktops or laptops for performance but too many people continue to be turned on by marketing. You do know that Apple products are made in China just like the rest of them? Not saying that is a bad thing but you'll be very surprised at the massive markup that Apple claims on the retail prices from the manufacturing costs.

 Note : I'm not an Apple hater, just an extensive reviewer of computer technology since the TR-80.


----------



## CaptHowie

Yes, most Mac fans know that Macs are made in China, Singapore & Malaysia but the build quality is second to none. Looks like the OP has had a bad first-experience by the sounds of it. I changed from PC to Mac around 2 years ago. It's the greatest thing ive done on computers. Im 16, youre probably all going to fire at this thread now with 'mac fanboy' posts but all im saying is that theres 3 mainstream operating systems and people have their right to choose which one they like. I've had a MacBook Pro for 2 years, no problems at all (battery only, replaced on the spot at the Apple store out of warranty) and it's the greatest computer I've had. Just my 2 cents...

 EDIT: And no, im not a PC hater... I use them on a daily basis at school and I have a few of my own for modding and games, plus the rest of the family use Windows...


----------



## ironeisnna

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gouki* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ha, just another sucker saying "I belong somewhere". 

 I saved so much money with PCs, that I used the rest for worthy stuff like hobbies, holidays etc.

 Apple can't come close to any desktops or laptops for performance but too many people continue to be turned on by marketing. You do know that Apple products are made in China just like the rest of them? Not saying that is a bad thing but you'll be very surprised at the massive markup that Apple claims on the retail prices from the manufacturing costs.

 Note : I'm not an Apple hater, just an extensive reviewer of computer technology since the TR-80._

 

There is no reason to be so offensive with people here. If you don't like the whole concept of giving money to a company for R&D and breakthrough production techniques (even in China), then you can always save your money and buy whatever you want. Its your choice. And if you consider computers something that you just need it for your work, spending your money in your hobbies, there are people that consider computers as one of their main hobbies and are willing to spend more money, not for the performance (which is something completely relevant as performance is the only feature that constantly degrades from the time you buy your machine), and also not for the need of belonging somewhere as you mentioned. Just for the enjoyment of using something well constructed, beautiful in the eye, and (for the time being) more functional from windows (don't forget that when windows 7 come out snow leopard will hit the selves though). 

 You are not the only veteran here. I am using coputers since 1989, and I can honestly say that I don't LOVE macs, of course they have some flaws, as anything in this earth, but currently I consider them far ahead from the competition concerning their design and quaity of materials used for their production and they are my choice for everyday work. That does not prevent me though to have a desktop running vista and another laptop running ubuntu!! 80% of the time spending on the computers though is spent in front of my current mac.


----------



## Gouki

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CaptHowie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, most Mac fans know that Macs are made in China, Singapore & Malaysia but the build quality is second to none. Looks like the OP has had a bad first-experience by the sounds of it. I changed from PC to Mac around 2 years ago. It's the greatest thing ive done on computers. Im 16, youre probably all going to fire at this thread now with 'mac fanboy' posts but all im saying is that theres 3 mainstream operating systems and people have their right to choose which one they like. I've had a MacBook Pro for 2 years, no problems at all (battery only, replaced on the spot at the Apple store out of warranty) and it's the greatest computer I've had. Just my 2 cents...

 EDIT: And no, im not a PC hater... I use them on a daily basis at school and I have a few of my own for modding and games, plus the rest of the family use Windows... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Build quality? Mate you probably have a well built MB Pro but others aren't so lucky. Apple is not known for build quality, they are known for design. 2 different thing. IBM/Lenovo is known for build quality, every heard of thinkpads caught in house fires and still live to tell the story? MB Pros have had problems with heat for as long as I can remember, which is why they could never put a better video card or higher resolution LCD panels for the fact that this will drive over the temperature and costs through the roof. And since you're also from Melbourne you probably know how much MB Pros especially the 17" cost compared to everybody else, too much I'd say!

 All I'm saying is that I'm sick of the overhype and the gullibility of people buying into Macs, you are not getting anything technologically superior, you are just buying something that looks nice. And I have a beef with Apple and all their bloody patents, which had always played dirty with the competition.


----------



## Gouki

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ironeisnna* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is no reason to be so offensive with people here. If you don't like the whole concept of giving money to a company for R&D and breakthrough production techniques (even in China), then you can always save your money and buy whatever you want. Its your choice. And if you consider computers something that you just need it for your work, spending your money in your hobbies, there are people that consider computers as one of their main hobbies and are willing to spend more money, not for the performance (which is something completely relevant as performance is the only feature that constantly degrades from the time you buy your machine), and also not for the need of belonging somewhere as you mentioned. Just for the enjoyment of using something well constructed, beautiful in the eye, and (for the time being) more functional from windows (don't forget that when windows 7 come out snow leopard will hit the selves though). _

 

My apologees then. I hope people can also apologise to the hard working people of China who are earning less than $200 a month making these overpriced notebooks so that Apple can benefit the profits for themselves and their image.

  Quote:


 You are not the only veteran here. I am using coputers since 1989, and I can honestly say that I don't LOVE macs, of course they have some flaws, as anything in this earth, but currently I consider them far ahead from the competition concerning their design and quaity of materials used for their production and they are my choice for everyday work. That does not prevent me though to have a desktop running vista and another laptop running ubuntu!! 80% of the time spending on the computers though is spent in front of my current mac. 
 

You know, if Apple did not go the Intel route, they would not be called Apple computers today, in fact I think they dropped that name now to just Apple because of their iPod success. The fact is, Apple knows that it cannot compete with PCs for features so it banks everything on its operating system. Now OSX is a nice system, a throwback to UNIX/LINUX with a prettier interface, but it is just software. Software is very portable and if there was no Apple hardware then PC people can also use OSX on their systems. BUT Apple is a marketing company, they can twist PC hardware into Macintoshes and call that an Apple and make even more money. Apple will never let OSX become open source for this reason.

 Product quality, now that is another thing as I've explained to CaptHowie. For every thing that you add to a product you have to subtract something, in Apple's case it is the features and components commonly found in most PCs like card readers, PCMCIA ports, S-Video output and so on. Apple know that they can't compete with Dell or other companies on features, so why not take out all that and spend the money making it look good? So ultimately that is what you pay for and you have to feel good about that.


----------



## ironeisnna

You have your points and are completely respected. Personally I don't care about the features that apple drops, as I hardly ever use them. Although macbooks pro have PCMCIA slots and it is easily to get a convertor from DVI to S-Video, but I got your point. In the end its a matter of taste. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also consider a good thing that there is a different voice and a (slight maybe) competition to the windows platform from a commercial company, as Microsoft don't seem to care that much about the free linux distributions around there...


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gouki* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Build quality? Mate you probably have a well built MB Pro but others aren't so lucky. Apple is not known for build quality, they are known for design. 2 different thing. IBM/Lenovo is known for build quality, every heard of thinkpads caught in house fires and still live to tell the story? MB Pros have had problems with heat for as long as I can remember, which is why they could never put a better video card or higher resolution LCD panels for the fact that this will drive over the temperature and costs through the roof. And since you're also from Melbourne you probably know how much MB Pros especially the 17" cost compared to everybody else, too much I'd say!

 All I'm saying is that I'm sick of the overhype and the gullibility of people buying into Macs, you are not getting anything technologically superior, you are just buying something that looks nice. And I have a beef with Apple and all their bloody patents, which had always played dirty with the competition._

 

There's not much in a PC excepting games that the average person can leverage from a high-end graphics card. In Mac OS X, a great many programs can utilise the built-in graphics, video and audio subsystems extensively to produce highly functional applications. This translates to Macs being able to do a lot of things that can't easily or cheaply be done on PCs. Just have a look at what the various iLife '09 programs can do, then go and found out how much it would cost you in software to duplicate that on a PC, if you can at all.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gouki* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My apologees then. I hope people can also apologise to the hard working people of China who are earning less than $200 a month making these overpriced notebooks so that Apple can benefit the profits for themselves and their image._

 

Their cost of living is also considerably lower than in your country. You have to factor that into account. Anyhow, if you want to complain about the wages in China, stop buying, well, anything! Just about everything is made there nowadays. If it weren't, those people would be earning _nothing_. I think a good something is a lot better than nothing, and so do the majority of Chinese who had nothing before.


  Quote:


 Product quality, now that is another thing as I've explained to CaptHowie. For every thing that you add to a product you have to subtract something, in Apple's case it is the features and components commonly found in most PCs like card readers, PCMCIA ports, S-Video output and so on. Apple know that they can't compete with Dell or other companies on features, so why not take out all that and spend the money making it look good? So ultimately that is what you pay for and you have to feel good about that. 
 

Cupholders do not equate to product quality. If you also look at PC laptop usage, you'll very rarely find people using both PC card or Expresscard ports, if they do at all. S-Video out can be had via a DVI to S-Video and composite adaptor, if you're one of the _rare_ people that use it. Apple don't bother throwing that stuff in there because they know the majority of people don't use those things. The less extra crap put in means the less that can go wrong with the machine. On the contrary to your assertion, Apple for years included MORE things than what used to be on PC laptops. Ethernet, a modem, Firewire and other things used to be standard back when PC laptops required PCMCIA cards for those features.

 You are right though, people buy Macs for Mac OS X. The focus is entirely around the software and its functionality.


----------



## Frihed89

I have purchased 2 Macs for my kids. Both died within a year - total death - and the Mac people said they were unrepairable and that they had been damaged by the user! And that was the end of that.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frihed89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have purchased 2 Macs for my kids. Both died within a year - total death - and the Mac people said they were unrepairable and that they had been damaged by the user! And that was the end of that._

 

If it was physical damage no mfg will honor the warranty outside of that Apple
 will usually make an effort to resolve the issue or at least thats been my experience what exactly was the issue with your kids computers.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Frihed89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have purchased 2 Macs for my kids. Both died within a year - total death - and the Mac people said they were unrepairable and that they had been damaged by the user! And that was the end of that._

 

Total death?


----------



## Gouki

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's not much in a PC excepting games that the average person can leverage from a high-end graphics card. In Mac OS X, a great many programs can utilise the built-in graphics, video and audio subsystems extensively to produce highly functional applications. This translates to Macs being able to do a lot of things that can't easily or cheaply be done on PCs. Just have a look at what the various iLife '09 programs can do, then go and found out how much it would cost you in software to duplicate that on a PC, if you can at all._

 

You make it sound like Apple innovated the computer, where a great deal of others have done the exact same thing. PCs aren't typically sold as an package because of their ability to be configured in so many different ways, its limitless. Techies understand this so well, if there was a perfect headphone that could be used anywhere at anytime on anything then please show me. There is nothing that comes out of the factory the way everybody wants it, that's why people have to tinker with headphones, computers and cars just to get the right configuration.

 But if you seriously do not know where to start then get what the companies recommend you with their all-in-one packages. I'd rather get a cheaper system and more software including free ones that does the job. 

  Quote:


 Their cost of living is also considerably lower than in your country. You have to factor that into account. Anyhow, if you want to complain about the wages in China, stop buying, well, anything! Just about everything is made there nowadays. If it weren't, those people would be earning _nothing_. I think a good something is a lot better than nothing, and so do the majority of Chinese who had nothing before. 
 

I think you're missing the point, a great deal of our products are indeed made in China, but nothing compares to the incredible markups that Apple puts on all their products. The old iPod cost less than $20 to make, it sold for 10 times as much. When an equivalent product comes out at $50 cheaper its not good enough because its not expensive.

  Quote:


 Cupholders do not equate to product quality. 
 







  Quote:


 If you also look at PC laptop usage, you'll very rarely find people using both PC card or Expresscard ports, if they do at all. S-Video out can be had via a DVI to S-Video and composite adaptor, if you're one of the _rare_ people that use it. Apple don't bother throwing that stuff in there because they know the majority of people don't use those things. The less extra crap put in means the less that can go wrong with the machine. On the contrary to your assertion, Apple for years included MORE things than what used to be on PC laptops. Ethernet, a modem, Firewire and other things used to be standard back when PC laptops required PCMCIA cards for those features. 
 

How can you tell me that Apple used to put all those things in their computers as a good thing, and none of it in their macs today as equally good? You seem to forget that Apple is such a company that jumps on every new technology created out there which is why they appear to be the first at having the ethernet, modem and so one. Apple tried to capitalise on proprietary stuff like firewire because they felt that the video industry will one day make it a standard and be rewarded financially for it (it didn't).

 As for the crap that you think PC laptops have, well I like my built-in memory card reader, remote control, media control buttons, 3/4 USB ports, s-video out (yes I still connect to movie projectors and TVs) and 1920x1200 LCD screen on my 15.4" notebook.

 I don't ever want unnecessary dongles and accessories sticking out of my USB ports like a Christmas tree except for external hard drives.

  Quote:


 You are right though, people buy Macs for Mac OS X. The focus is entirely around the software and its functionality. 
 

Which begs the question, why being a software is it still so expensive?


----------



## ozz

True Mac's are not for tweakers they are for people that just want to take it out of the
 box hook it up and do the task they require their increased sales even in these economic
 times have proved that. I am sure the more popularity they gain the more bashing will
 increase.


----------



## krmathis

Hugs his Mac's!


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gouki* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You make it sound like Apple innovated the computer, where a great deal of others have done the exact same thing._

 

Apple have innovated considerably. The iLife suite of software is the epitome of that IMO. iMovie gave ordinary people the ability to make awesome movies just using drag-and-drop from a digicam. Garageband has done the same thing for amateur bands and podcasters. Previously, to do that, you had to pay thousands of dollars for professional software, and spend a great many hours learning how to use it. 

 They were the first to: use magnetic latches in a notebook, use a power cable that wouldn't send your laptop flying if you tripped over the cable, make a brand-name computer using USB, sell a computer that uses a mouse, sell a computer with a graphical user interface, design a PDA, develop useable handwriting recognition and...shall I go on? I'd probably hit the post word limit if I did.

  Quote:


 PCs aren't typically sold as an package because of their ability to be configured in so many different ways, its limitless. 
 

PCs are typically sold as a package. I worked in retail. Most people are too clueless to build a PC. The major difference is the iMac, and in that you are correct. But the main point is a the same, as people going to a store will buy whatever package of computer, monitor and whatever is on special that day.

  Quote:


 I think you're missing the point, a great deal of our products are indeed made in China, but nothing compares to the incredible markups that Apple puts on all their products. The old iPod cost less than $20 to make, it sold for 10 times as much. When an equivalent product comes out at $50 cheaper its not good enough because its not expensive. 
 

How much does it cost per iPod for all the development it took to design it?

  Quote:


 How can you tell me that Apple used to put all those things in their computers as a good thing, and none of it in their macs today as equally good? You seem to forget that Apple is such a company that jumps on every new technology created out there which is why they appear to be the first at having the ethernet, modem and so one. Apple tried to capitalise on proprietary stuff like firewire because they felt that the video industry will one day make it a standard and be rewarded financially for it (it didn't). 
 

Apple doesn't jump on every new technology (there are far more new things out there that Apple never used than you might imagine). They jump on what they see is the future of technology. They also put in their machines what is used and useful for their customers.

  Quote:


 Which begs the question, why being a software is it still so expensive? 
 

Check the second-hand market value of a Mac and a PC notebook that started out the same price in a year or two after they were made. But to answer your question directly, look at the software you get with a Mac, and the software you get with a PC, and what it can do. You are most definitely paying for the whole experience.


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Total death? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL - Its a technical term

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...-london-office
Flaming laptop fiasco explodes again - The Inquirer


----------



## CaptHowie

This thread has just turned into a Mac vs. PC flaming thread. There are enough of these around already.

 Yes, Macs do have their design flaws... BUT... most PC's usually have twice because most (i said most because that does not mean all...) are poorly made. Yes, I am aware that the MBP have heat issues, as the previous poster said, they always have. I also have an old HP laptop lying around somewhere... the power adapter is broken (from normal use) and i've reinstalled windows over 4 times on it. Over two years using my MBP and OS X, ive never had a Kernel Panic and it's only frozen up once or twice. Everything from encoding and playing 1080p movies to a normal Firefox browser session with over 300 tabs open in usually 4 windows. Now I think that's quality...

 EDIT: Oh, also forgot... yes, I do live in Melbourne as my sig says. Yes, I do have to put up with the Australian currency against the greenback. Yes, I do know how much a 17" MacBook Pro costs. It's up to yourself as an individual to know if you want to spend that much. Personally, I think OS X is 100% better than Windows. Yes, I know there is going to be more firing posts at me by Windows fanboys but your really paying for 'the experience' and reliability. You make the choice.


----------



## krmathis

^ Yeah, sadly all threads discussing Mac's or Mac OS X turn into flaming threads.


----------



## CaptHowie

^ Yeah, I think I just added too the argument a bit too much


----------



## Jigglybootch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *CaptHowie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, Macs do have their design flaws... BUT... most PC's usually have twice because most (i said most because that does not mean all...) are poorly made._

 

Define poorly made.


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jigglybootch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Define poorly made._

 

How about this?

Laptop reliability â€“ the best and worst | csmonitor.com

 They are all very similar. How could they be different. They use the same parts and are often made in the same handful of factories regardless of brand. 

 Any mass produced product can have flaws. Apple is far from immune from it, in fact they seem to suffer from more than most. Thats probably because they try to do things differently more often. But on the flip side they are usually very good at resolving these issues with easy repair/replace policies in place.


----------



## Jigglybootch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sparky191* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any mass produced product can have flaws. Apple is far from immune from it, in fact they seem to suffer from more than most. Thats probably because they try to do things differently more often. But on the flip side they are usually very good at resolving these issues with easy repair/replace policies in place._

 

I'm sure that with Apple's small market share, any hardware/software flaws probably stand out a lot more. If 17 people out of 100 have problems, it's noticed. If 17 people out of 1,000,000 have problems then it's not as easily noticed.


----------



## xnothingpoetic

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jigglybootch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure that with Apple's small market share, any hardware/software flaws probably stand out a lot more. If 17 people out of 100 have problems, it's noticed. If *17* people out of 1,000,000 have problems then it's not as easily noticed._

 

That second 17 should theoretically go up as well- to something like 170,000 people out of a million would have problems.


----------



## immtbiker

Just boot-up time alone! 
 I sit there waiting and staring at my hard drive light on 2 different PC's (work and kids). In that time, I have booted up on my iMac, reviewed all my mail and Head-fi activities, and shut down, showered and shaved (you know, the 3 S's)


----------



## ironeisnna

^^^^^ lol!! Also SSD are not fully supported by windows yet... In Mac OS are fully functional.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-9996317-64.html


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just boot-up time alone! 
 I sit there waiting and staring at my hard drive light on 2 different PC's (work and kids). In that time, I have booted up on my iMac, reviewed all my mail and Head-fi activities, and shut down, showered and shaved (you know, the 3 S's)_

 

Well said!
 Mac OS X also have a really fast sleep/wake up function.


----------



## ozz

Not sure how well Safari 4 works on a PC but on a Mac its the quickest browser i have
 ever used plus it scores 100/100 on the acid 3 test.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


 Just boot-up time alone!
 I sit there waiting and staring at my hard drive light on 2 different PC's (work and kids). In that time, I have booted up on my iMac, reviewed all my mail and Head-fi activities, and shut down, showered and shaved (you know, the 3 S's) 
 

I don't know about macs, but my PCs boot up quite fast. And waking from sleep is pretty much instantaneous on my desktop. Even if you have fast hardware, you need to make sure you get rid of extraneous software (particularly with laptops) and just take care of your PC.


----------



## Jigglybootch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know about macs, but my PCs boot up quite fast. And waking from sleep is pretty much instantaneous on my desktop. Even if you have fast hardware, you need to make sure you get rid of extraneous software (particularly with laptops) and just take care of your PC._

 

My Vista system boots quite fast. But my old desktop with the Windows 7 beta boots even faster. In any case, both of my Windows systems boot faster than my cousin's iMac, though she has a G5 iMac. I've never compared boot times with a Intel-based iMac.


----------



## ozz

Intel Mac's about a minute give or take a few seconds model depending.


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jigglybootch* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure that with Apple's small market share, any hardware/software flaws probably stand out a lot more. If 17 people out of 100 have problems, it's noticed. If 17 people out of 1,000,000 have problems then it's not as easily noticed._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *xnothingpoetic* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That second 17 should theoretically go up as well- to something like 170,000 people out of a million would have problems._

 

I think ye are missing the point. If 1 in 5 report problems, it doesn't matter if thats from a total of 5 users or 5 million. Its still 1 in 5, or 20%.


----------



## Sparky191

If someone knows what they are doing, they should have no problems with a modern PC or Mac being slow to boot, or bad performance in general. If a problem does arise anyone with any cop on, should know how to fix it.


----------



## roastpuff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Intel Mac's about a minute give or take a few seconds model depending._

 

Depends on how much stuff you have it loaded with. My MBP takes ~30 seconds or less from cold start to login screen.


----------



## krmathis

^ Yeah, ±30 seconds here as well.
 Booting Mac OS 10.5.6 from cold to login window. Then 10 seconds or so after entering password until fully loaded desktop


----------



## roastpuff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ Yeah, ±30 seconds here as well.
 Booting Mac OS 10.5.6 from cold to login window. Then 10 seconds or so after entering password until fully loaded desktop_

 

To get to the desktop is another matter entirely. I have too much stuff loaded on startup, so it takes maybe ~60 secs to be fully loaded after that. I blame Quicksilver as it is always last to load, and quite slow.


----------



## roastpuff

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ Yeah, ±30 seconds here as well.
 Booting Mac OS 10.5.6 from cold to login window. Then 10 seconds or so after entering password until fully loaded desktop_

 

To get to the desktop is another matter entirely. I have too much stuff loaded on startup, so it takes maybe ~60 secs to be fully loaded after that. I blame Quicksilver as it is always last to load, and quite slow.


----------



## CaptHowie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roastpuff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To get to the desktop is another matter entirely. I have too much stuff loaded on startup, so it takes maybe ~60 secs to be fully loaded after that. I blame Quicksilver as it is always last to load, and quite slow._

 

Yes, same here. I have a MacBook Pro, takes about 30 seconds from cold boot to the login screen, once the password has been entered, it takes around 10-30 seconds, with Quicksilver the last to load. Then it's straight on to Head-Fi...


----------



## atx 6speed

I have a Mac Mini with a dual core Intel and I'm surprised with how quick it boots up. I only use it for development (iPhone apps) but it still surprises me.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *roastpuff* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To get to the desktop is another matter entirely. I have too much stuff loaded on startup, so it takes maybe ~60 secs to be fully loaded after that. I blame Quicksilver as it is always last to load, and quite slow._

 

Guess the amount of items loaded on startup make a big difference then.
 I have MenuMeters and Meteorologist, thats it.


----------



## alphaod

Boot up? Who turns off their computers


----------



## Suntory_Times

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Raez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Moral of the story: PC > Mac_

 

But a Mac is a PC.

 PC = personal computer, as long as an individual buys a computer its a pc whether it has window, the max OS, linux etc...


----------



## nineohtoo

obviously he means windows > os x.

 I'm back to using OS X again. I grew up with Apple(G3 days and before) and stopped using it around the time the intel chips came in. I just felt xp did what it needed to do, and hardware was always cheaper(at that time I was having to buy my own pc stuff instead of my parents). 

 Despite 7 being on the way, Vista had really turned me off on Windows. That and accidentally downloading a virus instead of a recent episode of Lost on usenet(lol).

 Traded my x300(who's value has sunk like a tank), for the last gen BlackBook. I wanted a unibody MacBook but the only person who considered trading backed out. The past few days have been heavenly. I've had a few crashes compared to the hourly ones i'd get with xp. My only beef is having to control click, but otherwise I feel so dumb for leaving in the first place. 

 I really need to learn how to use quicksilver. I'm sure my computer usage and life would be better for it.


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *alphaod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Boot up? Who turns off their computers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 


 The planet thanks you...


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nineohtoo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...
 Despite 7 being on the way, Vista had really turned me off on Windows. ....The past few days have been heavenly. I've had a few crashes compared to the hourly ones i'd get with xp. ...._

 

Vista woeful. Tried it one machine for a year and still hate it. Windows 7 is much better, not bad at all. I don't really see either has anything I "need" over XP. I've only had Windows 7 for a couple of months so its early days. 

 Either on my home machine or my work machine, I would rarely see a crash. Maybe one every few months. But its so rare I can't remember the last time. If you getting hourly crashes theres a serious problem with the machine you need to fix. That is not typical. 

 I also use Mac's but need Windows for Work. I don't really have a problem with either OS tbh happy using either. Where I am the Mac hardware is almost 3 times the cost of the Windows alternative.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Suntory_Times* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But a Mac is a PC.

 PC = personal computer, as long as an individual buys a computer its a pc whether it has window, the max OS, linux etc..._

 

Hear, hear!
*Finally* one who know the word!


----------



## grawk

But everyone knows what is meant when people say PC. There's no need to be pedantic.


----------



## Trastan

I don't mean to start a quarrel here, but I don't get the bad name that Vista still has. I'll grant you that Vista had driver issues (hardware manufacturer's fault, particularly with nVidia) and mediocre performance, but, as it is now, I can't imagine going back to the mess that is XP. 

 Every XP install I've had degraded over time, despite my ardent efforts to maintain its integrity. Performance loss, need to restart becoming increasingly common, and hidden problems causing all manner of issues that I have no idea how to solve pervade the XP experience. Once it got bad enough, the only thing left to do was reformat and start again. The whole thing was, and is, a ridiculous exercise in frustration. 

 On my (now more than a year old) current PC, running Vista x64 Home Premium or whatever they're calling it, has been the most stable operating environment I've ever encountered. I can freely leave my computer on for weeks at a time (no restarts, either), with absolutely no performance degradation. The only time I've had to reinstall Vista was when my hard drive died. I get no system errors, no blue screens, and, if a program starts having a fit, Task Manager ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, clears it up, and brings me back to full system speed and stability. I have NEVER had a program crash my machine.

 Windows 7's right around the corner, so this post is largely moot, but I still have to take issue with anyone who makes broad, dismissive remarks about Vista when they obviously have no experience with the operating system in its current form. As it is, it's a fantastic operating system, certainly the most reliable and, yes, peppy (there's no way an XP install would be performing this well after a year of my, admittedly careful, use) OS I've ever used. I'll never go back to XP, and the thought that someone would choose XP over Vista for a new machine just strikes me as tragic.

 Also: The HD800 looks awesome.


----------



## M0T0XGUY

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nineohtoo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_obviously he means windows > os x.

 I'm back to using OS X again. I grew up with Apple(G3 days and before) and stopped using it around the time the intel chips came in. I just felt xp did what it needed to do, and hardware was always cheaper(at that time I was having to buy my own pc stuff instead of my parents). 

 Despite 7 being on the way, Vista had really turned me off on Windows. That and accidentally downloading a virus instead of a recent episode of Lost on usenet(lol).

 Traded my x300(who's value has sunk like a tank), for the last gen BlackBook. I wanted a unibody MacBook but the only person who considered trading backed out. The past few days have been heavenly. I've had a few crashes compared to the hourly ones i'd get with xp. My only beef is having to control click, but otherwise I feel so dumb for leaving in the first place. 

 I really need to learn how to use quicksilver. I'm sure my computer usage and life would be better for it._

 

If you're running Leopard, you can change the activation of a control-click to make it more convenient. Check the trackpad tab in the settings menu, and experiment with the 2 finger right click. Personally, its streamlined my workflow greatly in applications like Word and Photoshop that rely heavily on control clicking.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But everyone knows what is meant when people say PC. There's no need to be pedantic._

 

Exactly.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But everyone knows what is meant when people say PC. There's no need to be pedantic._

 

A computer for personal use, running one of the major operating systems. Like Mac OS X, MS Windows or GNU/Linux... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Ok, I what what most you guys mean by the word "PC". But in my opinion all of you are wrong.


----------



## grawk

When 1 person thinks everyone else is wrong, the issue is narcicism.


----------



## Linchpin

Totally agree with you there, most of the Vista issues were due to immature drivers and nothing to do with the OS being unstable. When I was using XP I reformateed around every 3-4 months because it just got way too slow, my Vista install is over a year old and as fast as the day it was installed and the only time I had bluescreens was when testing overclocks. My computer runs 24/7 most of the time and with Vista it just doesn't crap out like XP whenever a buggy game froze.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Trastan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't mean to start a quarrel here, but I don't get the bad name that Vista still has. I'll grant you that Vista had driver issues (hardware manufacturer's fault, particularly with nVidia) and mediocre performance, but, as it is now, I can't imagine going back to the mess that is XP. 

 Every XP install I've had degraded over time, despite my ardent efforts to maintain its integrity. Performance loss, need to restart becoming increasingly common, and hidden problems causing all manner of issues that I have no idea how to solve pervade the XP experience. Once it got bad enough, the only thing left to do was reformat and start again. The whole thing was, and is, a ridiculous exercise in frustration. 

 On my (now more than a year old) current PC, running Vista x64 Home Premium or whatever they're calling it, has been the most stable operating environment I've ever encountered. I can freely leave my computer on for weeks at a time (no restarts, either), with absolutely no performance degradation. The only time I've had to reinstall Vista was when my hard drive died. I get no system errors, no blue screens, and, if a program starts having a fit, Task Manager ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, clears it up, and brings me back to full system speed and stability. I have NEVER had a program crash my machine.

 Windows 7's right around the corner, so this post is largely moot, but I still have to take issue with anyone who makes broad, dismissive remarks about Vista when they obviously have no experience with the operating system in its current form. As it is, it's a fantastic operating system, certainly the most reliable and, yes, peppy (there's no way an XP install would be performing this well after a year of my, admittedly careful, use) OS I've ever used. I'll never go back to XP, and the thought that someone would choose XP over Vista for a new machine just strikes me as tragic.

 Also: The HD800 looks awesome._


----------



## ozz

While I agree with krmathis PC was originally personnel computer which just about covered any consumer computer but through the years and even Apple's own ads 
 Hello I"m a Mac and I"m a PC has generalized the statement that if its not a Mac then
 its a PC.


----------



## grawk

In general usage PC means the collection of hardware and software that gets you the windows operating environment. Just like in general usage MAC means the collection of hardware and software that gets you the macintosh operating environment. It's really not that complicated, even if it's not always specifically accurate from a precise definition.


----------



## krmathis

^ I believe in precise definition! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 We agree to disagree about what is meant by the word "PC", and that is fine for me.


----------



## guzziguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ I believe in precise definition! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 We agree to disagree about what is meant by the word "PC", and that is fine for me._

 

I understand that you are not a native English speaker. You do understand that "precise" doesn't mean the same thing as "pedantic", don't you? IMO, you are being pedantic, not precise. Of course, we can agree to disagree about this too.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *guzziguy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I understand that you are not a native English speaker. You do understand that "precise" doesn't mean the same thing as "pedantic", don't you? IMO, you are being pedantic, not precise. Of course, we can agree to disagree about this too._

 

Correct, English is not my native language.
 Anyway, to me "precise" is more or less equal to "exact / distinct / accurate / clear". The word "pedantic" I probably have to look up to fully understand.

 I say the word "PC" have a very precise definition, while you think I am pedantic to stick with it.
 Hence I don't see how I used the word "precise" wrong. If so, then my English simply come short...


----------



## grawk

the reason is because while originally, the words personal and computer were just two words used together to indicate something somewhat unusual. But PC as it's used today is really a shortening of "IBM PC" because none of them are made by IBM anymore. It's "technically correct" that any computer used by a person is a personal computer, but it's still not a PC unless it's running an operating system that's derived from DOS. Using definitions that you know are not the common usage so as to change the terms of the debate is being pedantic, and it's effectively saying you don't want to participate in a reasonable discussion, but would rather devolve the conversation into one of semantics. When this happens in face to face conversations, most people throw up their hands and walk away.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ I believe in precise definition! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 We agree to disagree about what is meant by the word "PC", and that is fine for me._


----------



## guzziguy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Correct, English is not my native language.
 Anyway, to me "precise" is more or less equal to "exact / distinct / accurate / clear". The word "pedantic" I probably have to look up to fully understand.

 I say the word "PC" have a very precise definition, while you think I am pedantic to stick with it.
 Hence I don't see how I used the word "precise" wrong. If so, then my English simply come short..._

 

I say that the word "PC" has several definitions. For you to insist that only one of them is the correct definition is, IMO, pedantic.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *n_maher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_http://www.pbase.com/n_maher/image/110644101.jpg_

 

I most probably do!
 Arguing is quite fun though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, I don't see the problem with simply writing "XP", "Vista", "OS X", ... instead of "PC" when asking questions clearly related to one specific platform/OS.


----------



## n_maher

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, I don't see the problem with simply writing "XP", "Vista", "OS X", ... instead of "PC" when asking questions clearly related to one specific platform/OS._

 

You wouldn't see the problem, you'd see it as an opportunity to post 3 times.


----------



## grawk

You can want that all you want, but it takes a special kind of person to argue that the language should change for his benefit.


----------



## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyway, I don't see the problem with simply writing "XP", "Vista", "OS X", ... instead of "PC" when asking questions clearly related to one specific platform/OS._

 

Do you see the problem with the manner in which you participate on this website?


----------



## krmathis

Ok, I am willing to look into changing my impression of the word "PC"!


----------



## schalliol

My 2¢, PC most often means a Windows-based machine in the USA. Certainly it stands for personal computer and has a broad definition. The rise of Intel Macs blurs this line a bit more, given that all new Macs can run Windows.


----------



## schalliol

To the original point of the article (which doesn't seem to be ideal for a front-page post). I've often bought first run Macs and had little difficulty. I pre-ordered a 15" unibody on the day of the announcement and it's flawless. Certainly the luck Jude had with hardware flaws is a bummer, but it's a relatively isolated occurrence. I guess I should post when we get Dells that have issues.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, I am willing to look into changing my impression of the word "PC"! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Lots of things in the US get a commonly-used name from a particular brand of whatever that thing is. PC is implied to be an Windows machine because of the old IBM PC days, which ran a Microsoft command-line OS. A lot of people say "Coke" as a term for sodas, even though they may not technically want a Coke. Same thing for "Tylenol", "Kleenex", "Q-tip", "Legos", lots of other stuff.

 When you're the world's largest superpower, you can impose your terminology on others. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just kidding.


----------



## schalliol

Hehe, yeah, I don't like PC either, just saying that I hear people use it to mean Windows. Now where's that set of Velcro® brand hook and loop fastener I had lying around?


----------



## monoblocks

PC = Windoze, Linux

 Mac = Mac, and 'PC' is such a _dirty_ term, with no _political correctness_ merit to it at all.

 Cupertino seems pretty satisfied with this arrangement, as is Redmond...so why not everyone else?


----------



## nineohtoo

So for you guys using quicksilver, do you know if there's a quick way to launch an ad-hoc network? I want to be able to type a few keystrokes and have an ad-hoc network setup to tether my iPhone on.

 Thanks for the two finger click recommendation. I like using the two finger slide so I'll see how that goes.


----------



## schalliol

I thought that the _iPhone Modem_ zsrelay accessory app did that, if you use that mode to tether, though I don't recall exactly.


----------



## nineohtoo

I've been using pdanet because that's what I used with XP, but I'll go and give iphonemodem a shot. Thanks.


----------



## schalliol

I used pdanet before, and I guess you musta paid for it.

 If you want to create a network quickly though, the airport menu let's you do that from within any application, just go to "Create Network..." Maybe you're looking for no configuration, which of course is required in this case.


----------



## vapman

Macs are design genius.

 ...but my ThinkPad was more powerful than the highest-end MBP and $1200 cheaper!


----------



## schalliol

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mckickflip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Macs are design genius.

 ...but my ThinkPad was more powerful than the highest-end MBP and $1200 cheaper! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm interested in the specs of the ThinkPad. Got a model number and price paid to share? Typically these days Macs compare well by specs for price. What is not always clear are how to compare machines with differing specs. People often look at the CPU, but this is just one element of power and these days graphics cards are often more expensive than the CPU, etc. When I bought my last Mac, I recall a shootout where it was cheaper than the Dell that had similar specs (new parts on the market and no other brands sold the same capaibilites).


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mckickflip* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Macs are design genius.

 ...but my ThinkPad was more powerful than the highest-end MBP and $1200 cheaper! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Its not all about power, especially not for portable computers.
 Just as important are features, size, weight, battery time, durability, and more.

 Probably a reason why you refer to was more powerful.


----------



## ozz

I just went on line and configured the Think Pad with close to the same spec as the MBP
 and the difference was 90.00 in the TP's favor but it offered 2.53g and the MBP was 2.6g
 processor so where is this way cheaper. Also the Mac can make use of all of its ram can
 the Thinkpad if it can I stand corrected but please supply link supposedly Window's 7 will
 address this.


----------



## Currawong

People buy Macs for Mac OS X, it has to be said. It's not how big you are, it's what you can do with it, ya know?


----------



## ozz

I agree most of us buy the Mac for OSX and it usually has aesthetic appeal but I get so
 tired of seeing for a thousand dollars cheaper this can be had when in fact you do a spec
 And hardware comparison and it's usually close. Hardly anyone on this forum has a cheap
 computer as compared to the general public because we tend to do more than email and
 surf.


----------



## vapman

i don't hate Macs, i'm really just here to stir up trouble 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *schalliol* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm interested in the specs of the ThinkPad. Got a model number and price paid to share? Typically these days Macs compare well by specs for price. What is not always clear are how to compare machines with differing specs. People often look at the CPU, but this is just one element of power and these days graphics cards are often more expensive than the CPU, etc. When I bought my last Mac, I recall a shootout where it was cheaper than the Dell that had similar specs (new parts on the market and no other brands sold the same capaibilites)._

 

sure, my ThinkPad is about 6-7 months old now but here are the specs:

 T61p, paid about $2300
 15.4" WUXGA TFT
 Core 2 Duo T9500 (2.60 GHz, 6MB L2)
 4GB DDR2 RAM (forgot speed, sorry)
 nVidia Quadro FX 570M (256 MB)
 200GB 7200RPM FDE HD
 and all the other normal specs on here: Category:T61p - ThinkWiki

 I was actually going to buy a MBP but I decided to configure a maxed out T61p for fun, it was more powerful and $1200 less. I know I've got a chart somewhere I made comparing the two.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Its not all about power, especially not for portable computers.
 Just as important are features, size, weight, battery time, durability, and more.

 Probably a reason why you refer to was more powerful. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

at the time of purchase, of course! i was an apple fanboy for about 13 years, every one of my apples has never let me down but I can tell you my ThinkPad is sturdy as well.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just went on line and configured the Think Pad with close to the same spec as the MBP
 and the difference was 90.00 in the TP's favor but it offered 2.53g and the MBP was 2.6g
 processor so where is this way cheaper. Also the Mac can make use of all of its ram can
 the Thinkpad if it can I stand corrected but please supply link supposedly Window's 7 will
 address this._

 

yes, i am using all 4GB of my RAM, most of the time that is a limitation of 32-bit OSes. it is irrelevant because even on a 32-bit CPU, OS X can use up to 16GB of RAM. i am using linux, though (Arch).

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People buy Macs for Mac OS X, it has to be said. It's not how big you are, it's what you can do with it, ya know? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

that's why i used to run OSx86 on this!


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People buy Macs for Mac OS X, it has to be said. It's not how big you are, it's what you can do with it, ya know? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

OS X FTW!

 I've had my iMac for only 4 months. It's my first Mac.

 I will never go back to a PC again. The stability of OS X is amazing compared to Windows. Viruses? What's that?


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree most of us buy the Mac for OSX and it usually has aesthetic appeal but I get so
 tired of seeing for a thousand dollars cheaper this can be had when in fact you do a spec
 And hardware comparison and it's usually close. Hardly anyone on this forum has a cheap
 computer as compared to the general public because we tend to do more than email and
 surf._

 

About 2yrs ago, I was able to pick up Dell XPS 1330 2GB/160GB DVDRW Core2Duo for about €450 and I'd regularly source similar priced/spec'd laptops for friends and family for the same price. A MacBook would cost €1000 at the time usually a lower spec. Dell 17" 9400 with a 7900GS which cost about 1500Nearest to that would have been a MacBook Pro, would have cost about 2400 from Apple, but with a lesser gfx and lower screen res.

 That said none of these, and probably not even Apple would have the same build quality of the IBM machine. The keyboards especially on the IBMs are just great. 

 However buying an Apple is not just about the hardware, its also about investing in the OS and the whole Apple way of doing things. You either want that or you don't.


----------



## grawk

As someone who has a thinkpad from work and a macbook by choice, I can tell you macbooks are every bit as well built as thinkpads, and have better keyboards.


----------



## craiglester

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As someone who has a thinkpad from work and a macbook by choice, I can tell you macbooks are every bit as well built as thinkpads, and have better keyboards._

 

you forgot the "In My Opinion" qualifier.

 It's a widely held belief (see here) that the Thinkpad keyboards are the best there is. I use a T61 daily, and it is much nicer to use for any extended period than my father in law's Macbook keyboard(not sure what model - its one of the white plastic ones). Of course that's just one opinion.

 The overall build quality however is pretty ok on both. The card slots are pretty useful for the 3G card though, and the higher res screen is nice for the spreadsheets.

 Get what you need, pay what you can afford. Just don't get a compaq, those things are horrid.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As someone who has a thinkpad from work and a macbook by choice, I can tell you macbooks are every bit as well built as thinkpads, and have better keyboards._

 

Same opinion here!
 Using MacBook Pro at home and ThinkPad at work, and the Apple one feels every bit as well built as the Lenovo one.


----------



## Sparky191

I see far more Macs with problems than IBM's. Certainly theres been a litany of faults like cases cracking, faulty screens, overheating, and other stuff. Not saying Apple are worse than other manufacturers but they are certainly no better from what I see.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sparky191* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I see far more Macs with problems than IBM's. Certainly theres been a litany of faults like cases cracking, faulty screens, overheating, and other stuff. Not saying Apple are worse than other manufacturers but they are certainly no better from what I see._

 

WTH LOL you musnt get out much. having studied multimedia/animation with labs full of macs and PCs I can tell you which ones had more problems and which ones people tended to gravitate towards first. sure macs arent faultless. but put it this way; my G5 has now been on for over 2 months straight and even then I only turned it off for an electrical storm


----------



## Sparky191

Why as a multimedia/animation student would you get a lot of experience dealing with problem computers? Did people get the students to fix the machines or something? Perhaps those two things are not entirely unrelated. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You've given me a deja vu of my own past, playing with 3D Studio on DOS and renderfarms on a Novell network. Or the SGI Indys etc. or Electric Image on 68040 Macs.


----------



## Currawong

If there's a problem with a model of Mac, then it certainly gets widely publicised. You don't hear about problems with a particular model of PC unless it caught fire. However, us Mac users know the rules: Don't buy revision A of any new model, but wait out a few months instead, as Apple silently update designs to fix early issues. Test everything thoroughly in the first couple of days so that if anything isn't working, it can be returned as DOA. Buy Apple Care cheaper on eBay; buy .Mac at purchase or on eBay to save $$.


----------



## Sparky191

Yes but then batteries are made by third parties. They catch fire in Mac Laptops too...

PowerBook explodes in London office - The Inquirer

MacBook catches fire Down Under


----------



## nineohtoo

Coming from a ThinkPad(only PC notebook brand I'd ever buy), Thinkpads are built like tanks. Most of their current notebooks meet abusive and rugged military standards. 

 ThinkPads have the reputation they have for a reason, but Mac's aren't exactly all cheaply made. Yeah there may be some problematic models, but that's with anything. Lord knows the abuse my TiBook and my dad's 12" PowerBook used to take. 

 I guess I'm just saying that I feel one brand isn't necessarily worse than the other in terms of build quality. I frequent the CCA SF campus a lot because I have a buddy there, and most of the students there have MacBooks and ThinkPads. So just get which one fits your needs and budget, and quit worrying about the next guy. If the pretentious art snobs can do it, i'm sure you tech guys can.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sparky191* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but then batteries are made by third parties. They catch fire in Mac Laptops too...

PowerBook explodes in London office - The Inquirer

MacBook catches fire Down Under_

 

The third party is Sony if you do research on this you might be surprised at 
 how many brands use theirs they seem to have that market sowed up.


----------



## Shay

:O I've tried both and I prefer the glossy... they both suck in direct sunlight, and counter-intuitively I still prefer the glossy (with brightness turned up) because the matte's lack of contrast worsens with heavy light, IMHO.

 My $0.02


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The third party is Sony if you do research on this you might be surprised at 
 how many brands use theirs they seem to have that market sowed up._

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all. Most brands share common parts, hard drives, optical drives, ram, screen, intel chipsets. They might customise the chassis, and the mainboard but it rarely goes beyond that. Which is also they reason why if theres a flaw in a gfx, or battery it usually effects all the brands, not just one. Usually all of the same few months of manufacture. So their failure rates are going to be similar unless theres a design flaw in the chassis or cooling or assembly.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sparky191* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why as a multimedia/animation student would you get a lot of experience dealing with problem computers? Did people get the students to fix the machines or something? Perhaps those two things are not entirely unrelated. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You've given me a deja vu of my own past, playing with 3D Studio on DOS and renderfarms on a Novell network. Or the SGI Indys etc. or Electric Image on 68040 Macs._

 

often yes; and if it was lab late on a weekend often it isnt well staffed. but ya. wasnt a matter of fixing the macs. was a matter of avoiding the PC's. hehe yeah I did a little compositing in Flame early on on IRIX. some softimage and then after many years as a graphic designer (compositior mainly) I went back to do a bachelor of interactive media. MAX on the PCs and MAYA and shake on the macs. wow man what a flashback electic image on 68040 LOL sad but true. 

 but I suppose what would be a better example would be when I was working as a pre-press artist in an output bureaux having to deal with the one derelict windows machine debugging postscript errors caused by corel draw. man

 the no virus thing isnt to be overlooks either. iinux on a decent name brand PC I can handle. windows vista on a generic POC... I would rather chew my own mouse button finger off


----------



## Sparky191

Corel Draw ... shudder... 

 Likewise, Autocad on a Mac used to be a nightmare compared to the Dos version. 

 Most crashes and problems tend to be an underlying problem that can be fixed. Crashes and Virus problems are very rare unless someone's doing something dumb. Theres always that certain user that if you gave them a lead pencil they'd manage to get it to blue screen and a collection of the worlds virus'es.


----------



## vapman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sparky191* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but then batteries are made by third parties. They catch fire in Mac Laptops too...

PowerBook explodes in London office - The Inquirer

MacBook catches fire Down Under_

 

note how the majority of battery fires I can recall happening in the last decade are Sony batteries. i stay away from them.


----------



## nvkid909

i thought sony owned the rights to that technology (li-ion batteries), or has that now expired, as there are one or two aftermarket mbp batteries?

 could it be that some of the exploding batteries were because of overheating laptops? there's an issue in some, where silicone grease is too liberally applied, partly blocking some vents on the heat sink. check your temps in 'normal use'. mine seems to be ok


----------



## shigzeo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sparky191* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't be surprised at all. Most brands share common parts, hard drives, optical drives, ram, screen, intel chipsets. They might customise the chassis, and the mainboard but it rarely goes beyond that. Which is also they reason why if theres a flaw in a gfx, or battery it usually effects all the brands, not just one. Usually all of the same few months of manufacture. So their failure rates are going to be similar unless theres a design flaw in the chassis or cooling or assembly._

 

just like bicycles. if you buy a composite or aluminium, you are likely buying a model made by giant in taiwan or a subsidiary. apple don't make their own computers and most companies are just marketing companies sharing probably the same manufacturer but just using a different design if they even design their own chassis.

 i would not buy a PC unless it was sony or lenovo and even then, would not know what to do as i don't love linux and windows is not fun for me as it is too much mouse-driven without good keyboard shortcuts.


----------



## Al4x

on build quality

 ive have a dell that is literally strongest thing ever, i proved it to myself by accident :O

 at the same time my friend had a cheap model, that was flimsy, opening its lid you always got compression marks on the lcd lol


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shigzeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... windows is not fun for me as it is too much mouse-driven without good keyboard shortcuts._

 

Like maximize active window?


----------



## ikermalli

White macbook ftw


----------



## nirvanaxp

Personally I like the macbook pro. The older version at least. It has a design that will last the years and still look nice. I was temped to get a thinkpad or something but windows vista really turned me off it. It has all the same amenities as the unibody mbp save for the unibody of course. Fast processor, big battery, good graphics, and a matte screen, thank you. Of course it cost more than 2 grand. That hurt. But it is a great computer! No cheap plastic here!


----------



## nineohtoo

^I'm with you. As much as I do like the new unibodies, the last gen MBP is a timeless look and design. I prefer the keyboard matching the whole body. I do disagree with the aluminum over the poly carbonate. My dad still has the older 15" MBP, and I much prefer the polycarbonate of my blackbook. It doesn't ding as easy, and if I'm not mistaken gets better wireless reception than the aluminum bodies. Only thing I don't like about my blackbook is the fingerprints(not nearly as bad as my Lenovo X300 though), and the lame gloss screen. Colors look good, but the occasional glare sucks.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shigzeo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_windows is not fun for me as it is too much mouse-driven without good keyboard shortcuts._

 

Oh? Give me a few examples of things there aren't keyboard shortcuts for.


----------



## nirvanaxp

Ah, you make a good point nineohtoo. I suppose a unibody mac would not ding as easily, as it is thicker aluminum, though. There's something about metal cases that is just nice to me, it certainly won't scratch as easily. That's what I liked about the original iphone, before it turned into shiny, shiny black plastic. ehhh that's another thread.


----------



## M0T0XGUY

Plastic is not created equal; even among Apple products of the same generation. The matte finish of the polycarbonate Blackbook seems infinitely more elegant, scratch resistant, and durable than the glossy white of the current Macbook. Personally I still prefer the current aluminum Macbooks, but I can't say I'd be disappointed with the feel of the black Macbook.


----------



## Andrew LB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Raez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Moral of the story: PC > Mac_

 


 Exactly.

 I spent $1200 for a decked out Dell XPS m1530 (specs below) and not only does it smoke my brothers $3500 Mac Book Pro.... but I also taught my "untrendy PC" some pretty nice tricks. 

 Such as running OSx86 Leopard. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Dell XPS m1530-
 - 2.4ghz Intel Core 2 Duo T8300
 - 4gb PC800 DDR2
 - nVidia Geforce 9800m GT 512mb PCI-Express Graphics
 - 128gb G.Skill 150+ mb/s read/write Solid State Hard Drive
 - 15.4" LED Backlit LCD Sceen (yes... the same one they put in Mac Pro's)
 - DVD-RW
 - Bluetooth
 - Wireless-N
 - Creative X-Fi Express Card
 - HDMI Output
 - Ethernet

 The notebook also dual boots into Windows 7 Ultimate (beta) x64 edition.

 It's got a nice magnesium case too! Much stronger than my brothers Mac Book Pro.


----------



## grawk

Well, the $1999 macbook pro 15" with the 2.4ghz chip both has a faster bus and a faster video card. It also has a gigabit ethernet card and fw800. So yah, it's more expensive (tho not 3x as expensive, like you implied), but you do get some benefits for your money. And for some people, running a pirated operating system isn't something they are willing to do.


----------



## Arainach

The point isn't "what would a PC with comparable specs cost". It's "what would a PC that does everything I need cost" versus "what would a Mac that does everything I need cost". I could get a laptop that would last me for several years just fine for $700. There's no Mac laptop in that price range. The closest is the white plastic 13" MacBook. Sorry, 13" isn't enough for a full-time workstation for me. I need 1440x900 minimum resolution. I can't get that on a Macbook in my budget - not without jumping to $2000, in fact. I'm looking at a VERY well decked out Latitude D630, Thinkpad T400, etc. for $1500 or less. And I can get some very nice laptops with the screen resolution and specs I need in the $700 and less category.


----------



## Andrew LB

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, the $1999 macbook pro 15" with the 2.4ghz chip both has a faster bus and a faster video card. It also has a gigabit ethernet card and fw800. So yah, it's more expensive (tho not 3x as expensive, like you implied), but you do get some benefits for your money. And for some people, running a pirated operating system isn't something they are willing to do._

 

Hmm.... i just priced it out on Mac's website and the Mac Book Pro with "similar" specs was $2900. And that isn't including the better video card, the faster SSD drive, faster DVD+-RW drive, much more durable magnesium case, HDMI, etc.

 Btw.... I'd wager that less than 1% of gigabit 10/100/1000 owners have actually broken the 100mbps limit. And if you've read the countless reviews on current DDR3 setups, the difference is only seen in some synthetic benchmarks and the gains are pathetic.

 As for Firewire.... it still sucks. I'll take eSATA any day for my external drives or just use network drives.

  Quote:


 The point isn't "what would a PC with comparable specs cost". It's "what would a PC that does everything I need cost" versus "what would a Mac that does everything I need cost". I could get a laptop that would last me for several years just fine for $700. There's no Mac laptop in that price range. The closest is the white plastic 13" MacBook. Sorry, 13" isn't enough for a full-time workstation for me. I need 1440x900 minimum resolution. I can't get that on a Macbook in my budget - not without jumping to $2000, in fact. I'm looking at a VERY well decked out Latitude D630, Thinkpad T400, etc. for $1500 or less. And I can get some very nice laptops with the screen resolution and specs I need in the $700 and less category. 
 


 I agree completely. 90% of Mac users out there own them simply because they're "trendy". Today's PCs can do EVERYTHING the latest generation of Mac's can do AND exceed them. Mac had an advantage years ago when they ran RISC processing which helped them get an amost completely exclusive chunk of music creation/editing, video rendering, and graphic design. But now that ALL Mac's are simply a PC with a white case and a huge price tag, any tangible advantage Mac had is now gone.

 I almost bought a Mac Book Pro about 6 months ago before I got my Dell XPS, but after a little research I realized that you basically pay $1000+ just for the Mac OS.


----------



## grawk

There are lots of things that go into cost. You have to be aware going in that apple overcharges for memory and disk, so you don't pay them to up the specs. And every macbook has a better graphics board than the one in that dell. On top of that, in a year, that dell will have effectively no value, but the mac will be worth 75% of what you paid, more than likely. But if you don't have a problem with stealing the operating system, and don't plan on selling the laptop in the next 3-5 years, the dell is probably an acceptable system. 

 As to the "13" isnt' big enough", I run a macbook with a 20" lcd on my desk. I'd never buy a larger laptop, because bigger makes it less portable. The 20" cinema display I bought many years ago is still going strong.


----------



## Arainach

Again, grawk, you miss the point entirely. It has a huge GPU. That's awesome. I don't need it. Neither do most people. Give me an Intel chip that can run Aero in Vista and I'm golden. I'd rather save my money.


----------



## mark_h

A windows laptop with optical out?


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mark_h* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A windows laptop with optical out?_

 

Again: Not a feature I need in my portable rig. Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Me* 
_The point isn't "what would a PC with comparable specs cost". It's "what would a PC that does everything I need cost" versus "what would a Mac that does everything I need cost"._

 

By the way, my D620's docking station had Optical Out.


----------



## MusicallySilent

For the price argument.

 I bought my MBP after the unibodies were introduced for 1600+Tax.

 It was only a bit more than a comparable thinkpad. 200 or so

 I wanted a _6_0 or higher graphics card, the dell and hp were kind of expensive for that level of graphics or underpowered by comparison

 Thinkpads have ATi Chips... ATi+Linux isn't the worlds most fun experience but I did not want to deal with windows and running security software on it.

 On my mac I have bootcamp which I have nothing but windows firewall for.

 This laptop should run OSX fine for many years to come and windows for a few years. It isn't durable like a Thinkpad, but I have a nice well padded case for it that suffices.

 On the material front, I agree it dents rather easily but I like the feel of the aluminum and its ability to dissipate heat through the metal to cool it off. On the unibody front, ive heard the unibody part is more durable, but the thin bottom plates are where you will dent the unibody if you do dent it, so it isnt superbly protected if you drop it since the bottom plates are almost flat in contrast to the classic which makes them hold up less. I have also heard that they have had more DOA's and 3-5" drop deaths with the unibodies because the power connection isnt strong enough... but every rev a product seems to have some sort of issue.


----------



## nineohtoo

Quote:


 after a little research I realized that you basically pay $1000+ just for the Mac OS. 
 

That's pretty much it. We're mostly paying for OS X, and imo resale value. I came from the state of the art x300, and downgraded to a macbook. No SSD, lower resolution, heavier, thicker, no fingerprint recognition, not spill proof, case isn't designed to absorb shock from falls, etc. The only thing my MacBook has going for it is really OS X. 

 The X300 has probably dropped about 50-60% in resale value since it first released. Older USED core duo, and early core 2 duo macbooks that sold around $1000, still go for maybe $700+ in good condition. It's nice to know when you want to upgrade, you don't have to fully shell out for a new model.

 I personally don't regret going back to OS X. I've grown tired of tweaking and modifying Windows to my needs, even though I was capable of much more for much less. I'm just happy to have something I feel is stable and I don't have to so much as babysit as I can just use. But ymmv, so like I said earlier, get what works for you and your budget, and let us all do the same. Cheers.


----------



## grawk

I don't miss the point. You like the dell and don't mind stealing operating systems. More power to you.


----------



## ozz

A Dell configured as close as you can to a MBP is still cheaper but no optical in/out
 and the trackpad on the MBP is like none anywhere not to mention I-Life and Garage Band
 while some will argue this is not necessary maybe to them but this forum being centered
 around Hi-Fi and headphones with music being a priority the Mac seems to do it better
 IMO.


----------



## mark_h

Dell have no resale value and no optical out. I have a dell 490 with 2 quad core xeon chips etc. It serves its purpose i.e. CAD but since the Intel macs I use it less and less! Macs have much more going for them unless you care nothing for aesthetics user friendliness and design applications. wysiwyg!


----------



## auris

I switched from PC to Mac a few years ago and have never looked back. That said, I'm not a gamer, I have no use for gaming software, specialized software, etc. I pretty much just use the Internet, do some basic word processing, and some photo work. I use iTunes as my default music server and run it in lossless.

 I'm no Apple fanboy, but on the other hand, I consider most Windows operating systems to date to have been inherently defective. I would not buy a first iteration by Apple, and with Windows I'd want to wait until the second revision at a minimum.

 I mainly use my computer to surf the Internet and for that reason, I doubt I'll ever go back to Windows (unless the day comes when Apples are susceptible to as many viruses, spyware, trojans, and so on as Windows products).

 I also will not pay full retail for an Apple, be it an iPod or a computer. I buy their refurbs. Even at 20-30 percent off retail, they are _not_ screamin' bargains. 

 The recent "I'm a PC" Windows ads are an exercise in hilarity. They all omit the benefits of _not_ running a PC, in favor of specs. If I had bought my hifi system based on specs, I'd have deserved whatever I wound up with.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


 I mainly use my computer to surf the Internet and for that reason, I doubt I'll ever go back to Windows (unless the day comes when Apples are susceptible to as many viruses, spyware, trojans, and so on as Windows products) 
 

There are free third-party anti-virus/spyware programs that, if kept up-to-date, will protect you from almost any infection. I'm *constantly* downloading things off shady P2P, and I'll get a virus maybe once in a blue moon. (Which my anti-virus always promptly catches)

*PSA for anyone who uses Windows:* 

 Learn how to use the OS! It may not be as friendly out of the box, but with a little tweaking, you can generally have a bug-free ride for days to come. There are often really good third-party programs for pretty much any task, so do some research. Hell, ask the members here, they're very helpful! And for those who plan on buying a new Windows rig, learn to build your own. The crap software most pre-builts from Dell/HP/etc. include tend to slow the OS down and screw with other software.


----------



## iriverdude

If you browse dodgy sites and get viruses and trojans that's your own fault. With AV in Windows I don't get infected. Unless I run a dodgy EXE, but that's my own fault if I do.

 None of the Apple computers interest me. I want a machine I can upgrade, keeping bits. For example why buy a new case, power supply, drive if the ones you have a still suitable? Mac Mini only suitable for a HTPC not main system. Mac Pro too expensive.


----------



## grawk

It's a choice between having $100 in parts to salvage when you've used a computer for 2 years, or being able to sell the whole thing for 50-75% of what you paid for it.


----------



## iriverdude

I don't change my computer every 2 years. I'm not sure how old my 939 4400 X2 is, but it's going to be a while till I upgrade it. I doubt a 5 year old Mac can reach 50-75% value.

 Parts will be worth more than $100. Quality PSU, case. More like $350 US. Bigger than Mac Pro desktop and similar in quality.


----------



## grawk

You'll need a new power supply in 5 years. Your case and associated bits will be worth significantly less than the mac would be. 

 A 7 year old dual g4 800mhz quicksilver tower still sells for over $200. A dual 1ghz from 2002 sold recently on ebay for $365. Macs really do hold their value. I tend to sell my macs every 3-4 years, and get a significant percentage of my purchase price back. I also only ever buy refurbished systems.


----------



## Elluzion

I can't believe I read that. I don't know if i could ever switch to mac..  would be tough for me.


----------



## ozz

I personally have never met anyone and I mean anyone that has made the switch to a 
 Mac and went back outside of gamers and they generally kept both.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I personally have never met anyone and I mean anyone that has made the switch to a 
 Mac and went back outside of gamers and they generally kept both._

 

Same here.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Same here._

 

Well now you do. I used one full-time for a month and simply hated it. I've gone back to Windows and don't regret it at all. It simply works and has a much better hardware and software base.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I personally have never met anyone and I mean anyone that has made the switch to a 
 Mac and went back outside of gamers and they generally kept both._

 

Ditto!
 I have converted a couple of my friends, and after buying their first Mac the only thing they have regretted is why they waited so long before they switched.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

IMO there's nothing wrong with Mac OSX. Just the price tag of attached to it with the hardware. Other than that, there's nothing wrong with having another OS.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well now you do. I used one full-time for a month and simply hated it. I've gone back to Windows and don't regret it at all. It simply works and has a much better hardware and software base._

 

But I have never personally met you.


----------



## grawk

Not everyone will be successful at the transition. You need to change the way you do things, and that's not for everyone. Who really cares.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not everyone will be successful at the transition. You need to change the way you do things, and that's not for everyone. Who really cares._

 

That's true. I was actually pretty frustrated with my Mac the first couple of days because I had to do some things differently. Once I got past that, I never looked back....and never will.


----------



## ozz

I started out on a PC ten years ago I know that is not long but none the less everyone
 i personnaly know started out on a PC its what everyone around me at the time said get
 and I was somewhat happy with it never gave it much thought when someone mentioned
 Mac and was scared to change because thats not what my peers and friends had with
 the exception of one friend. One day three years ago he said take my MacBook for the
 weekend and try it that Monday after work bought my first MBP and never looked back.
 Now I can understand if your a gamer why a PC would be your priority but outside of
 that can't imagine why and over the years all I hear is proprietary and hate Jobs and
 iTunes but not once has anyone broke down a technical reason and some like to micro
 manage every file and folder but i just want the command executed as fast as possible.
 I will now step down off the soapbox thank you.


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I...Now I can understand if your a gamer why a PC would be your priority but outside of
 that can't imagine why ...._

 

All those corporations, banks, software houses, businesses, aren't playing games. But does it really matter. If your happy what else matters.


----------



## immtbiker

This is obviously a no-win situation. Both sides have valid arguments.

 However, the side that doesn't prefer the Mac, is clearly and utterly wrong!
 Off their "gourds", so to speak. But then again, some guys actually prefer ugly girls.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sparky191* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All those corporations, banks, software houses, businesses, aren't playing games. But does it really matter. If your happy what else matters._

 

Our clients consists of everyone of those you listed but banks and guess what
 they use both.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is obviously a no-win situation. Both sides have valid arguments.

 However, the side that doesn't prefer the Mac, is clearly and utterly wrong!
 Off their "gourds", so to speak. But then again, some guys actually prefer ugly girls._


----------



## craiglester

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not everyone will be successful at the transition. You need to change the way you do things, and that's not for everyone. Who really cares._

 

Clearly you do


----------



## choomanchoo

Interesting topic considering I'm looking into buying a Macbook/ pro maybe. Been using PC's for years now, I don't hate em at all but from some of the research I've done, I think a mac would better fit my tastes, besides I can still play WOW.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But then again, some guys actually prefer ugly girls._

 

Ugly chicks usually have low self-esteem and will _do_ things. Things other just chicks just won't do. 

 To clarify:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75qXUfp4wtw


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Now I can understand if your a gamer why a PC would be your priority but outside of
 that can't imagine why ....._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Our clients consists of everyone of those you listed but banks and guess what
 they use both._

 

With such a wide user base, you'd think you've have encountered a situation, business, technical, or financial where a PC was preferable. Could be something as simple as lot of bespoke applications that only run on Windows. Or thats their primary market.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is obviously a no-win situation. Both sides have valid arguments.

 However, the side that doesn't prefer the Mac, is clearly and utterly wrong!
 Off their "gourds", so to speak. But then again, some guys actually prefer ugly girls._


----------



## ozz

Attachment 15983At least the Mac will not be sporting any of these
 stickers.


----------



## craiglester

Umm nor would any PC thats running up to date windows. Frankly anyone who gets hit with a virus is lazy or stupid these days. The flaw conficker used was one that had already been patched, so there was no reason for anyone to get infected if they updated windows.

 I wonder do some Mac owners turn off the updates function too? I never understood why anyone would do that.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *craiglester* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Umm nor would any PC thats running up to date windows. Frankly anyone who gets hit with a virus is lazy or stupid these days. The flaw conficker used was one that had already been patched, so there was no reason for anyone to get infected if they updated windows.

 I wonder do some Mac owners turn off the updates function too? I never understood why anyone would do that._

 

The sticker art was meant in humor and yes most if not all the Mac owners
 I know of keep their system updated and as for my PC the security updates
 are updated daily but I am surprised at the amount of people that don't.


----------



## Arainach

Given that Macs are consistently the first to fall and that hackers point out that even when similar vulnerabilities exist, Windows machines are considerably tougher to hack than Macs, I wouldn't be bringing up the security point if I were a Mac user debating operating systems.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Given that Macs are consistently the first to fall and that hackers point out that even when similar vulnerabilities exist, Windows machines are considerably tougher to hack than Macs, I wouldn't be bringing up the security point if I were a Mac user debating operating systems._

 

The three years I have used my Mac the only way that something can get in
 is if I give it permission if something is attached it always notifies this has an
 application do you want it and if it were easy everyone would know it would be
 major news on the net.


----------



## iriverdude

The only times I've been infected on the PC is when I opened a dodgy EXE, you have to go out of your way or be a noob. If the OS & AV is updated, you don't open attachments in emails, or exe you'll be fine.

 And can play PC games.


----------



## jude

My previous-generation MacBook Pro 17" has been generally excellent since I switched to it (after my troubled run of unibodies). But, over time (recently), the drive felt more laggy (increasingly common, random "beachball" waits), and today I've been greeted with disk errors that Disk Warrior can't work around. What Disk Warrior _did_ do, however, is reconstruct enough from the drive to allow me to copy a lot of files/directories from it to an external drive, which is what I'm doing now. (By the way, Disk Warrior is an essential app, in my opinion, and has saved me a couple of other times.)

 Those Disk Warrior salvaged files/directories are last-resort option to restore from later that I thought I should take while it's available to me. My primary backup is a full Time Machine backup on a 1-terabyte drive (a drive used exclusively for Time Machine).

 The plan now is to go to the Apple Store first thing tomorrow to get the drive replaced.

 From a productivity standpoint, this was _immensely_ not-cool timing, as I have a heavy workload this weekend. (Well, such a problem with one's main computer is _never _well-timed.) Having only one Mac is a bit of a problem at times like this, and I'm now considering more seriously getting the least expensive MacBook as an operatonial backup (which still isn't _cheap_) for situations like this.

 As an alternative to a second Mac just for operational backup, I'm considering *MediaFour's MacDrive* which would allow my PC's to read my Mac drives. This would give me the option of working from my Mac's backed-up main directories (for those apps, like Office, that work across both platforms). Is anyone familiar with this app? Does anyone have a recommendation for something better? (Being free isn't a requirement--MacDrive is priced at $59.95 for a two-computer license.)

 What a weekend for such things. In a separate situation, my 1-terabyte network backup drive died yesterday, but is still under warranty. That warranty might not be valid, however, if I feel inclined to dismantle the thing to see if I can get the data off that disk otherwise.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My previous-generation MacBook Pro 17" has been generally excellent since I switched to it (after my troubled run of unibodies). But, over time (recently), the drive felt more laggy (increasingly common, random "beachball" waits), and today I've been greeted with disk errors that Disk Warrior can't work around. What Disk Warrior did do, however, is reconstruct enough from the drive to allow me to copy a lot of files/directories from it to an external drive, which is what I'm doing now. (By the way, Disk Warrior is an essential app, in my opinion, and has saved me a couple of other times.)

 Those Disk Warrior salvaged files/directories are last-resort option to restore from later that I thought I should take while it's available to me. My primary backup is a full Time Machine backup on a 1-terabyte drive (a drive used exclusively for Time Machine).

 The plan now is to go to the Apple Store first thing tomorrow to get the drive replaced.

 From a productivity standpoint, this was immensely not-cool timing, as I have a heavy workload this weekend. (Well, such a problem with one's main computer is never well-timed.) Having only one Mac is a bit of a problem at times like this, and I'm now considering more seriously getting the least expensive MacBook as an operatonial backup (which still isn't cheap) for situations like this.

 As an alternative to a second Mac just for operational backup, I'm considering *MediaFour's MacDrive* which would allow my PC's to read my Mac drives. This would give me the option of working from my Mac's backed-up main directories (for those apps, like Office, that work across both platforms). Is anyone familiar with this app? Does anyone have a recommendation for something better? (Being free isn't a requirement--MacDrive is priced at $59.95 for a two-computer license.)

 What a weekend for such things. In a separate situation, my 1-terabyte network backup drive died yesterday, but is still under warranty. That warranty might not be valid, however, if I feel inclined to dismantle the thing to see if I can get the data off that disk otherwise._

 

Sorry for your bad luck and as for a back-up my friends and several posters
 have had great luck with MacBook refurbs .


----------



## ozz

There is an application you may want at the Apple site that is called SMART reporter
 2.3.9 that actually warns of hard drive failure before its to late supposedly i have had
 it but have not experienced failure yet to verify have friends that claim it works, it can't
 hurt.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Given that Macs are consistently the first to fall and that hackers point out that even when similar vulnerabilities exist, Windows machines are considerably tougher to hack than Macs, I wouldn't be bringing up the security point if I were a Mac user debating operating systems._

 

Fix -> Just stay clear of Safari.
 ...and for comparison they did not run the same test on Safari on MS Windows, so who knows if its just as vulnerable. So don't blame the OS when its a single application that is the guilty/faulty one..


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The three years I have used my Mac the only way that something can get in
 is if I give it permission if something is attached it always notifies this has an
 application do you want it and if it were easy everyone would know it would be
 major news on the net._

 

It _was_ major news on the net. Did you even read the articles I sent? If you truly think your Mac is secure, you're living in a fantasy world. Macs have roughly as many holes as a hunk of swiss cheese, they just don't have enough market share to warrant large-scale attacks. They don't represent a large enough chunk of the computer market to develop attacks for; if you're going to write a virus to spread, it has to have a decent chance of finding another similar machine to spread; currently, only Windows provides that kind of ecosystem due to its ubiquity. Quote:


 ...and for comparison they did not run the same test on Safari on MS Windows, so who knows if its just as vulnerable. So don't blame the OS when its a single application that is the guilty/faulty one.. 
 

Did you even read my articles? For reference, here's a direct quote from the guy who cracked Safari: Quote:


 It’s really simple. Safari on the Mac is easier to exploit. The things that Windows do to make it harder (for an exploit to work), Macs don’t do. Hacking into Macs is so much easier. You don’t have to jump through hoops and deal with all the anti-exploit mitigations you’d find in Windows.

 It’s more about the operating system than the (target) program. Firefox on Mac is pretty easy too. The underlying OS doesn’t have anti-exploit stuff built into it.

 With my Safari exploit, I put the code into a process and I know exactly where it’s going to be. There’s no randomization. I know when I jump there, the code is there and I can execute it there. On Windows, the code might show up but I don’t know where it is. Even if I get to the code, it’s not executable. Those are two hurdles that Macs don’t have.

 It’s clear that all three browsers (Safari, IE and Firefox) have bugs. Code execution holes everywhere. But that’s only half the equation. The other half is exploiting it. There’s almost no hurdle to jump through on Mac OS X.


----------



## ozz

I read it especially the part where the code redirects you to a link which you have to open
 in a sense you should raise a flag right there then if it tries to alter an app it still needs
 your permission you don't use a Mac do you.


----------



## Arainach

No, I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken. The exploit required no user confirmation or permission. As soon as the user navigated to the website, with no other prompting, the machine was compromised. No permission prompts, no nothing. That's why it's called an EXPLOIT rather than an application.


----------



## nineohtoo

I hate to admit it, but he's right. They had that on Giz too. 

 What bothers me about that, is since it's so easy, why doesn't someone just do it just to mess with Apple and shut up us elitist Mac owners? 

 I understand no one is gonna waste the effort if there's nothing in it for them, but with how easy some respectable guys in the trade have made it seem, someone should be able to do it in their sleep. Why not do it? 

 Again, I'm not questioning the FACT. I'm questioning why no one does anything about it.


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The sticker art was meant in humor and yes most if not all the Mac owners
 I know of keep their system updated and as for my PC the security updates
 are updated daily but I am surprised at the amount of people that don't._

 

Theres technology "challenged people on Mac and PC. Such is life.


----------



## Sparky191

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nineohtoo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I hate to admit it, but he's right. They had that on Giz too. 

 What bothers me about that, is since it's so easy, why doesn't someone just do it just to mess with Apple and shut up us elitist Mac owners? 

 I understand no one is gonna waste the effort if there's nothing in it for them, but with how easy some respectable guys in the trade have made it seem, someone should be able to do it in their sleep. Why not do it? 

 Again, I'm not questioning the FACT. I'm questioning why no one does anything about it._

 

All the important/interesting stuff is on PC's? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Does it really matter.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It was major news on the net. Did you even read the articles I sent? If you truly think your Mac is secure, you're living in a fantasy world. Macs have roughly as many holes as a hunk of swiss cheese, they just don't have enough market share to warrant large-scale attacks. They don't represent a large enough chunk of the computer market to develop attacks for; if you're going to write a virus to spread, it has to have a decent chance of finding another similar machine to spread; currently, only Windows provides that kind of ecosystem due to its ubiquity.Did you even read my articles? For reference, here's a direct quote from the guy who cracked Safari:_

 

i'm sorry, but if you look at it on a brand by brand basis; Apple has the largest market share of all. i'm sure there is holes, but you generally have to do something to allow it, like having cookies activated or something and then navigating to a site. if it were so easy; someone would have done it just to show they can. there doesnt have to be anything in it for a hacker to do it.


----------



## LFC_SL

*HP business notebook, aluminium iMac and aluminium Macbook owner here*

 OSX is not completely secure. Lets not be naive here. Exploits are routinely found and patched. There is no excuse for being blase with internet security. I use online banking and spend far too much money shopping. OSX has a built-in firewall - investigate its options peeps

 For those who wonder why hackers do not target OSX: because the 90% market share of Windows means that they can monetise and profit. Not even talking about key-loggers and malware here, I recall a BBC article highlighting that something like just 3% of spam emails are answered but it is more than enough to cover overheads


----------



## Sparky191

Economy of scale applies to hackers and spam too.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *qusp* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_i'm sorry, but if you look at it on a brand by brand basis; Apple has the largest market share of all._

 

....what?

 There are 2* Brands:

 Microsoft ~90%
 Apple ~8%
 Everyone else ~2%
  Quote:


 i'm sure there is holes, but you generally have to do something to allow it, like having cookies activated or something and then navigating to a site. if it were so easy; someone would have done it just to show they can. there doesnt have to be anything in it for a hacker to do it. 
 

My links were people doing it just to show they can.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_....what?

 There are 2* Brands:

 Microsoft ~90%
 Apple ~8%
 Everyone else ~2%
 My links were people doing it just to show they can._

 

I bet he talked about computer hardware.
 Apple vs. Dell, IBM, Compaq, ASUS, Hewlett Packard, ...


----------



## Arainach

You're probably right; people who don't understand the difference between hardware and software shouldn't be debating security, however.


----------



## grawk

It could be argued that people that don't know the difference between in the wild exploits and demonstrations done in controlled environments shouldn't be, either.


----------



## Rob T




----------



## Arainach

iBotnet: Researchers find signs of zombie Macs | Zero Day | ZDNet.com

 How about that there Mac security?


----------



## Kirosia

At my business school I've seen more PC lappys than Macs, but owners on both sides seem to just use them for casual entertainment and word processing. The "heaviest" I've caught anyone doing was playing World of Warcraft. The students get macs cause of the looks/status/advertising and the PCs because they're cheap. (I see a lot of older model dell/HP/Compaqs)


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_iBotnet: Researchers find signs of zombie Macs | Zero Day | ZDNet.com

 How about that there Mac security?_

 

You do realize that was a pirated version most Mac users or at least the ones
 I know buy legit.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You do realize that was a pirated version most Mac users or at least the ones
 I know buy legit._

 

But I thought there was no Malware for Macs? That's why I don't need an Anti-Virus or Anti-Spyware on mine.....?

 Not to mention I don't know a single person who bought their Mac - several got them through work, several got them from mommy and daddy, but none of them were able to afford their own, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see people I know pirating Mac software.


----------



## craiglester

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bet he talked about computer hardware.
 Apple vs. Dell, IBM, Compaq, ASUS, Hewlett Packard, ..._

 

Market Share 1Q 2009

Apple's US Market Share Slips in 1Q 2009


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But I thought there was no Malware for Macs? That's why I don't need an Anti-Virus or Anti-Spyware on mine.....?

 Not to mention I don't know a single person who bought their Mac - several got them through work, several got them from mommy and daddy, but none of them were able to afford their own, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see people I know pirating Mac software._

 

There is not on anything legit and any program that you add needs permission
 so if you install a no legit or dubious third party and give it permission then
 you will probably as any system suffer the consequences.


----------



## craiglester

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There is not on anything legit and any program that you add needs permission
 so if you install a no legit or dubious third party and give it permission then
 you will probably as any system suffer the consequences._

 

Like on a PC, just you wouldn't have your A/V scanner pick it up and warn you.

 Pirated software has risks, Mac or PC, thats the bottom line.


----------



## grawk

Yes, it's not a security flaw for the mac that people install malicious software. That's social engineering, and doesn't depend on security features of the mac at all.


----------



## ozz

I bet if you did a pole of all the Mac users on this forum no one has suffered from an attack.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bet if you did a pole of all the Mac users on this forum no one has suffered from an attack._

 

...raises hand.

 Never had a virus. I would constantly get viruses on my PC, despite having Norton. What a joke.


----------



## craiglester

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Never had a virus. I would constantly get viruses on my PC, despite having Norton. What a joke._

 

Well, which is it?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Constantly? Just where were you getting your software? Hmmm?


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...raises hand.

 Never had a virus. I would constantly get viruses on my PC, despite having Norton. What a joke._

 

I also got hit a couple of years ago using Norton on the Dell but resolved it
 by that afternoon that being said its sad that people have nothing better to
 do in life than to create havoc and mayhem for others. But never on the Mac.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *craiglester* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, which is it?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_

 

Read it in context and it is pretty obvious what I was saying.


----------



## craiglester

Rob: I like how you quoted that _out of context_





 ozz: Never say never...This is an interesting read.. conclusions on pages 53 and 54 particularly.

http://cansecwest.com/csw09/csw09-daizovi-miller.pdf


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...raises hand.

 Never had a virus. I would constantly get viruses on my PC, despite having Norton. What a joke._

 

I've never had a virus on my Windows-based machine either. *high five*






 But seriously. Who uses Norton nowadays. It's one of the worst pay-to-use antiviruses out there (based on my experience).


 But seriously, MAC OSX users. Either it's security or compatibility. Those are the only two things you have to say to justify why MAC OSX is better? I'm not hating on Apple, I just don't see how just those two points justify MAC OSX being better than Windows (or even Linux). Even MAC OSX had some compatibility issues (Google for graphics issue for MBP 17-inch).

 Even Windows-based machines would work without security issues/risks and compatibility issues if the users install and patch the right thing, much like how Apple prompts you to update MAC OSX for similar issues.

 Easy to use, this isn't even an argument. It's just a matter of the individual getting used to an OS.


----------



## ozz

That was an interesting read there was a lot of security issues addressed in the last update and I will not speculate at this point if they left one open with high vulnerability.


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're probably right; people who don't understand the difference between hardware and software shouldn't be debating security, however._

 


 LOL, I was indeed talking hardware, if you look at the fields that apple actually markets too (not your gamer or everyday dross office worker) they have a massive majority. schools, graphics, audio, scientific modelling. I do know the difference, but you didnt say OSX, you said apple.

 man and people say mac users are self righteous 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the point being that I have been using computers of both types for 25 years and I have never had a virus on my macs, but plenty have been found on the PCs, I dont always download the updates straight away either, so thats not the point, although I do realize there must be some out there, i've just never been exposed to one thats been able to do anything. I used to go to some pretty seriously dangerous places downloading wares etc too.
 I own everything I use regularly, but some of the big softs that dont provide demos are just asking for it IMO I like to see if something works for me before shelling thousands on it.

 it says a lot about windows the fact that there are still many people who still have not 'updated' to vista... 2 years later.

 but I guess you would be an expert with the amount of problems PC users have to deal with on a day to day basis. Must be good practice.

 linux is great too; for me its not so much a hardware thing; although its definately a good part of it. and the fact that people still go on about this stuff when you can actually run windows natively on a mac now anyway is funny.

 why is it that even though you guys have such a massive majority (in OS) that you still bother to go to a thread such as this and argue about it. I would think if that was me I would just have a sense of quiet satisfaction; but nooo, somehow people still feel the need to defend windows.

 I wondoer why that is


----------



## qusp

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You're probably right; people who don't understand the difference between hardware and software shouldn't be debating security, however._

 


 LOL, I was indeed talking hardware, if you look at the fields that apple actually markets too (not your gamer or everyday dross office worker) they have a massive majority. schools, graphics, audio, scientific modelling. I do know the difference, but you didnt say OSX, you said apple.

 man and people say mac users are self righteous 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the point being that I have been using computers of both types for 25 years and I have never had a virus on my macs, but plenty have been found on the PCs, I dont always download the updates straight away either, so thats not the point, although I do realize there must be some out there, i've just never been exposed to one thats been able to do anything. I used to go to some pretty seriously dangerous places downloading wares etc too.
 I own everything I use regularly, but some of the big softs that dont provide demos are just asking for it IMO I like to see if something works for me before shelling thousands on it.

 it says a lot about windows the fact that there are still many people who still have not 'updated' to vista... 2 years later.

 but I guess you would be an expert with the amount of problems PC users have to deal with on a day to day basis. Must be good practice.

 linux is great too; for me its not so much a hardware thing; its a combination of the two; the OS and hardware just seem to like each other in general on the Macs i've owned; although its (the hardware) definately a good part of it. and the fact that people still go on about this stuff when you can actually run windows natively on a mac now anyway is funny.

 why is it that even though you guys have such a massive majority (in OS) that you still bother to go to a thread such as this and argue about it. I would think if that was me I would just have a sense of quiet satisfaction; but nooo, somehow people still feel the need to defend windows.

 I wondoer why that is


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Jeremy you just love double-posting don't you


----------



## ozz

Good thing I have insomnia anyway there is nothing in the wild that I could find that would exploit the Mac that is not saying it does not have holes all systems do and thats
 not saying it can not get in the key word was exploit the system without permission if
 you can find it ,it should have a name post it. Now I did not say it could not happen its
 just so far in the wild it has not and the virus fear merchants try harder year after year.
 As a matter of fact if you search there is not anything current article wise with a name.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would constantly get viruses on my PC, despite having *Norton*. What a joke._

 

There's your problem. Norton was/is one of the worse anti-virus programs, both in security and bloat. It would've taken you a good few minutes at most to find a nice free third-party program.


----------



## iriverdude

I installed Norton once, it BSOD my machine. I managed to repair the OS, when I uninstalled it still left Synmatec files. Someone I know moved from Norton to Avast free and reported far quicker, but of course Norton has left crap so he really needs to do a fresh OS install.

 Utter **** piece of software.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's your problem. Norton was/is one of the worse anti-virus programs, both in security and bloat. It would've taken you a good few minutes at most to find a nice free third-party program._

 

...and yet I don't have ANY anti-virus program on my Mac, and haven't had a single issue.


----------



## Kirosia

It doesn't negate your ignorance of the matter. People keep attacking Windows for things they could've easily resolved with fairly minimal work, often taking pride in their lack of knowledge. These are computers, not toys. And like it's been mentioned a thousand times before, Mac (OS) is targeted much less due to lower market share. If Macs were top dog, the roles would undoubtedly be reversed. Nature of the beast an all. 

 On a related note, I won't deny that most of the pre-installed software that comes with pre-built PCs are crap. A fresh copy of Windows doesn't seem to come with anything useful either, but considering the general premiums in costs Macs have, you can spend the difference on good software or just try to find some free apps. Still, Microsoft needs to up their game.


----------



## iriverdude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...and yet I don't have ANY anti-virus program on my Mac, and haven't had a single issue._

 

How do you know you're not infected, if you don't have AV?


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's your problem. Norton was/is one of the worse anti-virus programs, both in security and bloat. It would've taken you a good few minutes at most to find a nice free third-party program._

 

Um, not true. The security suite is well-regarded. Bloated, however, heck yes it is.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I installed Norton once, it BSOD my machine. I managed to repair the OS, when I uninstalled it still left Synmatec files. Someone I know moved from Norton to Avast free and reported far quicker, but of course Norton has left crap so he really needs to do a fresh OS install.

 Utter **** piece of software._

 

Symantec stuff never uninstalls cleanly, this is very true. Major PITA to fix for us corporate types.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *woof07* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Um, not true. The security suite is well-regarded. Bloated, however, heck yes it is._

 

I had the home version a couple years ago, not sure if it's gotten better hence why I said "was/is". Still hear bad things, though I'm not sure how other versions/suites fare.


----------



## ozz

So on the PC side which is better AVG (thats what I have on the Dell) or AVAST or has
 something dethroned both.


----------



## Kirosia

Not sure, but if you're not currently having any issues then I'd just stick with it.


----------



## iriverdude

I've used AVG & Avast. AVG used to be good but not so anymore, it's scanned past files I've known are infected. Switched to avast. Also AVG kept on asking for a reboot (system update) Which is annoying.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had the home version a couple years ago, not sure if it's gotten better hence why I said "was/is". Still hear bad things, though I'm not sure how other versions/suites fare._

 

The home version is a good product. In these days of rootkit-based malware, the number of "good" a/v suites has dwindled. Norton's works.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It doesn't negate your ignorance of the matter. People keep attacking Windows for things they could've easily resolved with fairly minimal work, often taking pride in their lack of knowledge. These are computers, not toys. And like it's been mentioned a thousand times before, Mac (OS) is targeted much less due to lower market share. If Macs were top dog, the roles would undoubtedly be reversed. Nature of the beast an all. 

 On a related note, I won't deny that most of the pre-installed software that comes with pre-built PCs are crap. A fresh copy of Windows doesn't seem to come with anything useful either, but considering the general premiums in costs Macs have, you can spend the difference on good software or just try to find some free apps. Still, Microsoft needs to up their game._

 

Frankly I don't give a crap as to why Mac's do not get infected like PC's do. All I do give a crap about is the fact that they don't.

 I've had PC's for more than 20 years, and a Mac for about 7 months. I couldn't be happier with the Mac.


----------



## woof37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've used AVG & Avast. AVG used to be good but not so anymore, it's scanned past files I've known are infected. Switched to avast. Also AVG kept on asking for a reboot (system update) Which is annoying._

 

I'm finding that as well, which is too bad. AVG is easy to set up and teach the user to handle.


----------



## iriverdude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Frankly I don't give a crap as to why Mac's do not get infected like PC's do. All I do give a crap about is the fact that they don't.

 I've had PC's for more than 20 years, and a Mac for about 7 months. I couldn't be happier with the Mac._

 

Can't play games on Mac's. So I'd still need a PC, so a Apple (expensive) plus a PC would work out far more expensive.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Frankly I don't give a crap as to why Mac's do not get infected like PC's do. All I do give a crap about is the fact that they don't._

 

Why the attitude, I'm just being logical. Bad guys tend to prefer bigger targets to maximize gain/damage.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

I've to agree with Kirosia on this one. If only people knew how take care of their own computer, no one would say "Macs are better because there are less viruses" blablabla. It's only a matter of the individual taking care of their computer, unless someone's incapable of differentiating what to click and what not to click.

 Again, with the right programs, Windows would have the better security compared to MAC OSX since well, according to Rob T, "...and yet I don't have ANY anti-virus program on my Mac, and haven't had a single issue."
 Since when is less protection (or no protection at all according to Rob T) better anyway?

 I'd love for you to meet my uni's CSE team. Bunch of lovely people who love to fool around with people's computers. Would love you to hear them tell you how much easier it is for MAC OSX to be fooled around with compared to Windows and of course, Linux. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 There are people in this world who create Trojans, adware, spyware and etc for fun, and they'll tell you that MAC OSX isn't a challenge. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe that's why MAC OSX ends up getting screwed first in hacking competitions. But doesn't matter, these same people can't be bothered making viruses for MAC OSX anyway since it's too easy for them to do so. Where's the fun?

 Being less prone to viruses != Better at preventing viruses.

 Again, I'm not saying MAC OSX security sucks, I'm saying that Windows' security is tough since it's more of a challenge to screw around with 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But of course, it all depends on the individual who hopefully has a decent brain and know what and what not to click.


----------



## ozz

I will say this out of all the computers that I have owned my MacBook Pro has been fun
 and trouble free both hardware and software and it will be replaced at some point with
 a newer MBP as for what I use the Dell for when it gets replaced may look into a netbook.


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why the attitude, I'm just being logical. Bad guys tend to prefer bigger targets to maximize gain/damage._

 

I'd think being the first to unleash the mac worm would be a pretty big ego trip.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd think being the first to unleash the mac worm would be a pretty big ego trip._

 

I really don't know. Maybe among the bad guy hacker community, doing such a thing wouldn't be considered that big a deal?


----------



## grawk

The first to do anything is a big deal.


----------



## Kirosia

I could be the first guy to crap out a flaming turkey, but I won't necessarily get props for it. (okay, probably) Who knows why people don't do the things they don't do.


----------



## grawk

It's a subculture I'm fairly familiar with. They don't do things because they can't. They do things because they can, and because it gets them attention.


----------



## Rob T

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've to agree with Kirosia on this one. If only people knew how take care of their own computer, no one would say "Macs are better because there are less viruses" blablabla. It's only a matter of the individual taking care of their computer, unless someone's incapable of differentiating what to click and what not to click.

 Again, with the right programs, Windows would have the better security compared to MAC OSX since well, according to Rob T, "...and yet I don't have ANY anti-virus program on my Mac, and haven't had a single issue."
 Since when is less protection (or no protection at all according to Rob T) better anyway?

 I'd love for you to meet my uni's CSE team. Bunch of lovely people who love to fool around with people's computers. Would love you to hear them tell you how much easier it is for MAC OSX to be fooled around with compared to Windows and of course, Linux. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 There are people in this world who create Trojans, adware, spyware and etc for fun, and they'll tell you that MAC OSX isn't a challenge. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe that's why MAC OSX ends up getting screwed first in hacking competitions. But doesn't matter, these same people can't be bothered making viruses for MAC OSX anyway since it's too easy for them to do so. Where's the fun?

 Being less prone to viruses != Better at preventing viruses.

 Again, I'm not saying MAC OSX security sucks,*[size=small] I'm saying that Windows' security is tough since it's more of a challenge to screw around with 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size]* But of course, it all depends on the individual who hopefully has a decent brain and know what and what not to click._

 

I really don't understand what is so hard to comprehend here. You simply don't have to worry about any of that crap with the Mac.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

So what are you two arguing about?


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Rob T* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I really don't understand what is so hard to comprehend here. You simply don't have to worry about any of that crap with the Mac._

 

Don't have to worry *YET*, you mean. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 On another note I feel like getting a White Macbook for its Firewire and optical jack.


----------



## krmathis

All the flaming! *shakes head*


----------



## gadgetman

Yeah, find other things to stroke, than your ego..


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ZephyrSapphire* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So what are you two arguing about?_

 

Fiery poultry and it's effects on computer operating systems

  Quote:


 All the flaming! *shakes head* 
 

Aren't you the one who shows up in every mac/pc thread and flamebaits?


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Aren't you the one who shows up in every mac/pc thread and flamebaits?_

 

Maybe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But the main problem is those who start the flaming!


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Maybe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But the main problem is those who start the flaming!_

 

But you often start/greatly assist said flaming?


----------



## ozz

To krmathis defense I find his knowledge of the Mac computers and its operating system
 to be up there with some of the best he has corrected a lot of myths and misconceptions.
 I have found a lot of other people in this forum to be prominent in their field knowledge
 is our goal besides the passion for music and all associated equipment.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kirosia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But you often start/greatly assist said flaming?_

 

Don't think so, or at least I don't hope so!
 But I sure try to correct/inform those who comment about Mac's and Mac OS X where it quite easy to pick that they have little or no knowledge what they talk about. They have just read somewhere that...

 After having used both platforms for 5-15 years I have picked up some knowledge.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


 Don't think so, or at least I don't hope so!
 But I sure try to correct/inform those who comment about Mac's and Mac OS X where it quite easy to pick that they have little or no knowledge what they talk about. They have just read somewhere that...

 After having used both platforms for 5-15 years I have picked up some knowledge. 
 

Yet have no issue when people make ignorant statements about windows, perhaps even doing so yourself? I've seen you fan the flames in these threads. 


  Quote:


 To krmathis defense I find his knowledge of the Mac computers and its operating system
 to be up there with some of the best he has corrected a lot of myths and misconceptions. 
 

I don't doubt his knowledge of Macs, but he does seem to be very fanboyish. I don't really care about operating systems, it just irks me when people act this way.


----------



## h.rav

I use both Mac and Windows side by side and I have no preference which one is better than another. Both seem to do the job just fine. I never experienced crashed Windows Vista, I believe the drivers are the most important parts if you want to have a stable system.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *h.rav* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I use both Mac and Windows side by side and I have no preference which one is better than another. Both seem to do the job just fine. I never experienced crashed Windows Vista, *I believe the drivers are the most important parts if you want to have a stable system.*_

 

Finally, some sanity. And the bolded part is quite important. When Mac OS X finally supports enough different pieces of hardware that I need more than just fingers to count them, then let's talk stability.


----------



## ozz

What hardware are you having trouble finding drivers for on a Mac.


----------



## nineohtoo

Quote:


 Finally, some sanity. And the bolded part is quite important. When Mac OS X finally supports enough different pieces of hardware that I need more than just fingers to count them, then let's talk stability. 
 

And that's where I think some people are happy with OS X. The less choices make it easier for some, and I commend Apple for keeping it that way. The day they change that is the day that their system will be no better than Windows imo. I'd rather have less things to play with, if it means they all play nice. But that's just me. 

 There are all sorts of consumer goods out there in the world that are better when made to order or the customer's needs. But not everyone wants to deal with that, or is just happy with a solution out of the box. I'm personally tired of tweaking my cars, gadgets, etc. It's fun, but in the end I've spent an absurd amount of time and effort to making things the way I think they should, when I would have been plenty satisfied with a simpler option(Example, the big guys here who end up downgrading because they just want to enjoy their music, not nitpick at the hardware that plays it). Look at some luxury cars, the popularity of home theater in a box systems, all these multipurpose devices, etc. They're usually not up to par with something you can put together yourself, but the average consumer isn't going to deal with all that. 

 That's reserved for the enthusiast, and I think that's where some of the frustration comes from. As an enthusiast you know said product can be capable of much more, maybe with less costs, and it bothers you that other people don't follow those routes. 

 SIDE NOTE: But in Apple's competition's defense, I do find it ridiculous that some things that are standard on the competition are made upgrades and features on Apple stuff. The fact that I need to jailbreak my iPhone and use solutions outside of Apple to make it worthwhile is a joke. The fact that Lenovo can ship out some of the most cutting edge features and options(I'd even say Dell at times) is sad. I understand Apple's thing for that zen like simplicity, but there are many features they lack that are keeping them from being more and more in the workplace outside of art. 

 And a lot of Apple user's are SUPER ignorant with their tech. I'm appalled at the things some OS X or iPhone users ask or do. Especially when I stop by the Apple store. Don't get me wrong there are folks out there who know their stuff and just prefer what Apple has(like the guys defending Apple in this thread), but really, most of Apple's user base has probably not maximized even half of their product's capabilities, or even how to really use them.


----------



## Sparky191

I think a lot of people miss this difference between open platform and closed platform. Therein lies the advantages/disadvantages of both.


----------



## soulrider4ever

Just go to Linux


----------



## zeroibis

When my high school converted the macs in the video journalism room to windows it was like going from a horse to a car! Now I do admit that we were using G4s but the number of software problems and other issues dropped to a virtual 0. With the macs it was always something that was in the way of us doing our work and constantly caused people to stay after school for hours redoing all there work or not being able to do what they wanted. 

 When we switched to windows we had no more blown firewire ports, admin problems created by overly zealous security, cross platform compatibility, less projects randomly getting deleted, file corruption, file system errors, slow load times, slow processing times, and instability on large projects (largely due to lack of ram). 

 Now I know that some of the problems were hardware related however for a school that is trying to get the best bang for buck the prices for upgrading parts on mac vs pc in the long run was simply unsustainable. 

 This has been my personal experience with mac.


----------



## krmathis

^ Its not fair comparing a 3+ year old G4 Mac vs. a new Intel machine. Hardware development have come a long way in those years...


----------



## grawk

G4s are a lot more than 3 years old.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_^ Its not fair comparing a 3+ year old G4 Mac vs. a new Intel machine. Hardware development have come a long way in those years..._

 

The point is that they had 3+ year old machines because you can't upgrade Macs, while you can upgrade PCs to get a lot more life out of them.


----------



## grawk

Institutions don't upgrade parts of computers, they replace them. So that argument is just silly.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_G4s are a lot more than 3 years old._

 

Not much!
 Apple used the G4 processor at least up to January 2006, when the PowerBook G4 was replaced by the MacBook Pro. So it all depends which computer they are talking about...

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Arainach* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The point is that they had 3+ year old machines because you can't upgrade Macs, while you can upgrade PCs to get a lot more life out of them._

 

Never seen a larger institution (like school) upgrading computers, beside probably adding more RAM. They usually run them for 3 years, then replace with brand new ones. Regardless if they use PC or Mac.


----------



## grawk

ok, G4 DESKTOPS are a lot more than 3 years old.


----------



## Sparky191

If you know what you are doing using either should be no problem. 

 You can get a lemon regardless of make/brand.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not much!
 Apple used the G4 processor at least up to January 2006, when the PowerBook G4 was replaced by the MacBook Pro. So it all depends which computer they are talking about...


 Never seen a larger institution (like school) upgrading computers, beside probably adding more RAM. They usually run them for 3 years, then replace with brand new ones. Regardless if they use PC or Mac._

 

I've seen High Schools upgrading (Windows) machines in multiple instances.

 And the point is that if they go Mac they can't AFFORD to upgrade every 3 years because each round of upgrades costs significantly more.


----------



## grawk

Apple's prices have been coming down, not going up...


----------



## Kirosia

Not-so-funny story, I had to print something out on campus, and I was in an unfamiliar building. Searched around for a computer lab, and finally found one after quite a bit. Walked in, took off my earphones and spun around, only to realize I was in a mac-only lab. (Didn't even know we had them) Left like a mad man, found the PC lab, and saw that I lost my earphone cover. Couldn't go back cause I really didn't know where I dropped it, and only would've looked stupid. So yeah, macs both robbed and shamed me. Now there can only _be_ hate.


----------



## Arainach

And yet they're still dramatically higher. The very cheapest Mac sold (the Mac Mini), which probably doesn't even fit the needs of most schools (things such as expansion ports, ability to physically secure, etc., etc.) is $599. For comparison, the Dell Inspiron line starts at $299 - HALF the price.


----------



## iriverdude

yup, I can't see how anyone can say macs are cheaper, they're double the price, usually with lower spec as well.


----------



## grawk

No one's saying they're the cheapest computer available, only that the cost has been going down. So if the school's pattern is to replace every 3 years pc or mac, the mac solution doesn't go UP in price 3 years later, it goes down. Plus, total cost of ownership favors the mac, because the resale value of the mac is higher.


----------



## Arainach

The Mac Solution is still higher every 3 years, which is absolutely beyond the budget of most schools/businesses. I mean, really, you're looking at a minimum of $1200/machine for Mac, which is ludicrous. The Mac Mini is NOT appropriate. I have one sitting right next top me. I could fit it in a backpack/purse in seconds, and its happy simplistic Mac design leaves no way to secure it to anything.


----------



## iriverdude

PC £343 inc vat

 Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo 2Ghz, 4MB L2 Cache 
 Screen: 15.4" Widescreen CrystalBrite Display
 Hard Drive : 250GB Hard Drive
 Memory: 2048MB RAM (2 x 1GB Ram) 
 Optical Drive: High Defination DVD Drive 
 Graphics: nVidia Geforce 8600M GS 256MB 
 Networking: 802.11a/b/g/Draft-N & Gigabit LAN 
 Operating System: Windows Vista Home Premium 
 Webcam: Yes, 0.3 MegaPixel Webcam 
 Other Items: 1 year warranty, 5 in 1 card reader, 8 cell battery, Dolby Home Theater Virtual Surround Sound speakers
 HDMI Output, S-Video Output, Firewire Port

 MacBook Pro £1368
 15-inch: 2.4GHz
 Intel Core 2 Duo
 2GB Memory
 250GB hard drive1
 NVIDIA GeForce 9400M + 9600M

 I thought twice as much. Oh dear, if you buy a Mac you're daft...buy a PC bung on Ubuntu and laugh away saving £1000. Granted Mac has faster CPU but if you're not gaming, you won't know the difference. Even if you want to match CPU only a bit more.

 And since OSX isn't for gaming, GPU is not worth it.


----------



## grawk

Yup. Anyone that doesn't use ubuntu is daft.


----------



## iriverdude

^My point being it's 'nix as is OSX. If you don't want to use Microsoft, which is why people buy Mac's.

 I personally don't like Linux it's a bit geeky, and I game. I do have it installed on a partition on one of my HD's. XP for other stuff and gaming.


----------



## grawk

I buy macs because they work better than anything else for what I use them for. You can argue I'm daft, or whatever you'd like, but I'm a well informed consumer, and for my needs, macs just work better, and are a bargain for what they cost. If you like fiddling with your computer as a hobby, the mac might not be the best choice for you. After working on various sized unix systems for over 20 years professionally, I don't need to fiddle with my home system for fun. I'd rather use it as a tool that does what I want when I want.


----------



## iriverdude

PC's run the applications I use, are cheaper, more powerful, I can upgrade myself. Keep bits I want, and junk the ones I don't. Or move to another system I can fiddle with the hardware and software (or not) once setup they run fine. Mac's are not a bargain for what they cost.

 If I didn't play games, I'd still need to use a windows emulator for the applications I use. If you're going to use bootcamp with Windows, you may as well just buy a PC since you're paying multiples of PC components.


----------



## krmathis

Here we go again...


----------



## grawk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... for my needs, macs just work better, and are a bargain for what they cost. If you like fiddling with your computer as a hobby, the mac might not be the best choice for you._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iriverdude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PC's run the applications I use, are cheaper, more powerful, I can upgrade myself. Keep bits I want, and junk the ones I don't. Or move to another system I can fiddle with the hardware and software (or not) once setup they run fine. Mac's are not a bargain for what they cost.

 If I didn't play games, I'd still need to use a windows emulator for the applications I use. If you're going to use bootcamp with Windows, you may as well just buy a PC since you're paying multiples of PC components._

 

So for you, they're not a bargain, that's fine. Doesn't change that for me, they are.


----------



## ozz

Well grawk that makes two of us they are a bargain for me also especially since a friend
 will give half what I paid for it if and when I upgrade to a new MBP this summer.


----------



## episiarch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My previous-generation MacBook Pro 17" has been generally excellent since I switched to it (after my troubled run of unibodies)._

 

I just thought I'd comment on this since I too got a previous-gen 17" after a unibody.

 I too switched from PC to Mac late last year, a little earlier than Jude did. I have a long history with Macs but had been PC-only for most of the last decade. There was no one thing that was "the breaking point" for my switch, but a major factor was that I was moving overseas and wanted to simplify the heck out of my over-full home office/computing lab. I'd been using a Mac laptop part-time over several months and had grown to find it a more accomodating, less intrusive working experience than my PCs, so I decided to make Mac my main environment going forward. Your mileage may vary, etc., etc., but that's the choice that I made. (I did ship my primary PC over as part of the move, but three months later I've yet to bother to turn it on.)

 I bought one of the new 15-inch unibody MBPs but unlike Jude I had no hardware issues whatsoever. Beautiful looking, solid as a rock, works great.

 After a few months I did decide I wanted the extra screen real estate and extra USB port of the 17-inch model, though. By this time the unibody 17" was available, but you could still get the last of the old-style 17" machines as well.

 I decided on the old-style 17 instead of the new one. The unibody has some advantages (the trackpad feel is lovely, it stays cooler than the old ones, it has the dual GPUs, it's pretty, and the massive new battery sure sounds nice) but also two big drawbacks for me: First, the keyboard is simply less suited to my typing style than the old one, which is much more responsive to short, light strokes. Other people may well feel differently about the two keyboards, but the difference is a big deal for me. The other drawback of the unibody is that the edge of the case is _so_ aggressively right-angled, with no visible rounding or bevelling at all, that I was actually finding it cut uncomfortably into my forearms during long sessions. The rounding on the edge of the old-style 17" MBP is visually minute, but is sufficient to prevent that.

 There's one other thing about the old-style 17 that I like better, which is that there's less backlight leakage around the keytops: only the keytops themselves are really illuminated, while on the unibody models each keytop is surrounded by a little halo of illumination. This is a super nitpick on my part and wouldn't have been a deciding factor at all, but I like the old model's illumination better.


----------



## ozz

The new trackpad is what I like most about the new MBP's and I know that is not a valid
 reason to upgrade as there are more than that but after using the new trackpad I want it.


----------



## episiarch

The new trackpad feels great, gives you a biiig button to push (if you're into clicking and not just tapping) and supports more gestures than the old one -- pinch/expand, three-fingered swipe and four-fingered swipe. If you care about trackpad feel or capability the way I care about keyboard feel, then over the life of the computer those things add up. It's not such a terrible reason to upgrade, if it matters to you.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ozz* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well grawk that makes two of us they are a bargain for me also especially since a friend
 will give half what I paid for it if and when I upgrade to a new MBP this summer._

 

Make that three of us, me included!


----------



## scud80

i didn't like the big click-pad at first (was setting up some stuff for my mom), but after a while i went by to my older macbook and found myself missing that. and i truly hate trackpads that respond to taps (without clicking).

 the only thing i really dislike about the macbooks is the case-edging. it can get very uncomfortable after a while, and i've often thought about just filing it to be more curved. haven't gotten around to it yet though.


----------



## Rob T

Are Macs more Safe than Secure? No — RoughlyDrafted Magazine


----------



## Arainach

What a worthless article. Once again, Mac users write about PCs like everyone's still running Windows 98.


----------



## Vayate

The last good operating system was DOS 6.22.


----------



## grawk

You must be to young to have used DOS 6.22.


----------



## Vayate

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *grawk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You must be to young to have used DOS 6.22._

 

I've been using PCs for a long time. My first machine was a Windows 3.1 setup, that ran on top of DOS 6.22. Usually stayed out of it, but whenever I wanted to play a crappy DOOM knockoff or some random PC game I got from Wal-Mart on the cheap, I'd have to use the DOS interface. I upgraded the machine a couple years ago (yes, my mother was routinely using Windows 3.11 until 2006) and played around with DOS while I had it. Hadn't appreciated what a fine system it was before that, but I maintain that it's really all you need. Spellcheck and CSS-compatible web browsing are for the weak.


----------



## ozz

Be a hero and use an Abacus of course a modern OS will speed up productivity and be
 more fun to use.


----------



## MCC

I love the flexibility that PCs offer. I can customize my machine with any set of parts I feel like and I can build a very solid machine for almost dirt cheap. Building and setting up a Windows PC from scratch only takes a few hours max and it's a fun experience. There's just no excitement in buying a machine off the shelf and plugging it in.


----------



## ozz

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MCC* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I love the flexibility that PCs offer. I can customize my machine with any set of parts I feel like and I can build a very solid machine for almost dirt cheap. Building and setting up a Windows PC from scratch only takes a few hours max and it's a fun experience. There's just no excitement in buying a machine off the shelf and plugging it in._

 

I defend anyone who wants to build and modify anything for the rest of us that just want to push a button or turn a knob and it works well the percentage is high and we enjoy that also.


----------



## grawk

I know people who like to build their own cars too, even when the car they build isn't as comfortable or maintenance free as one they could buy from bmw.


----------



## ozz

My feelings of modification if I have to do more than minor then for me I obviously bought the wrong one.


----------



## Kirosia

Different strokes, folks, yada. 

 I wouldn't have built my PCs if I didn't have to. I just want something with Windows that works, and shoddy bloatware-filled pre-builds don't satisfy that category.


----------



## Fallen

I have about four old PCs at my parent's house that I haven't used in years (since my Mac laptop became powerful enough to be my main machine).

 I do NOT miss windows at all, am glad to be rid of it. But I do miss the tinkering about with the hardware. 

 Having recently tried different flavors of Linux on my netbook, I'm tempted to cull those old machines for parts and assemble a Linux desktop. I had a pretty good power supply and casing, as well as a not too shabby video card, and an workable cpu and mobo. Most Linux Apps seem to be low on CPU and GPU requirements anyway. Maybe I could make a decent media server somehow.

 Having a machine and OS that 'just works' has been great and all, but seriously, I sometimes need to get my geek on.

 I think I'm done with Windows for now though. I'm happy to pay for an OS, but that one is just not for me.


----------



## ozz

I can see where the gaming crowd would like to custom build a desktop but I like a lot
 of people have retired my desktop to my inlaws and use mainly laptops.


----------



## MD1032

Stories like this are exactly why I always recommend IBM's Thinkpads (Lenovo now). I've never heard a single story like this about a Thinkpad before, ever. Lenovo's overall product quality and quality control is superb. My Thinkpad T60 functioned perfectly from the day I got it three years ago to now, and even though we received the 3 year warranty as part of the deal, I've literally had no use for it at all. The only thing I've done is put in an extra stick of RAM (upgrading to two gigs) and upgrade the hard drive to a new 7200RPM model, which brought up the speed of this laptop considerably (feels brand new still, just as fast as anything you'd buy today). Anyway, I must say, if you're looking for a seriously well-constructed business laptop with excellent options, you'll pay out the *** for the Lenovo, but it's totally worth it. I've watched all of my peers' Dells, Toshibas, HP's, Fujitsu's, and Macbooks die over time and be replaced or refurbished while my laptop is still pristine. And believe me, I use it plenty. It has a graphics card, and I usually run dual screens (laptop dock has DVI so I can use my DVI monitor, heck, I can even output 1920x1080 into our HDTV!) and play games like Half-Life 2 and Team Fortress 2 on it... games most laptops would either not be able to play or overheat with.

 Besides, I rather like my 14" 1400x1050 4:3 screen, they don't make those anymore! What's with all this widescreen crap, anyway?


----------



## MCC

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MD1032* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Besides, I rather like my 14" 1400x1050 4:3 screen, they don't make those anymore! What's with all this widescreen crap, anyway? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Widescreen media, of course! My dad's had a widescreen projection system since the mid 90s so 4:3 displays simply don't cut it with media for me. I'm happy with my W500 and its 1680x1050 display. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's also nice for viewing documents side-by-side in Word or programming with reference open on one side of the display.


----------



## Arainach

Quote:


 Besides, I rather like my 14" 1400x1050 4:3 screen, they don't make those anymore! What's with all this widescreen crap, anyway? 
 

Widescreen allows a 12.1" laptop to have a full-size keyboard; I fully approve of this switch (that and 1280x800 is far more usable than 1024x768).


----------



## nlaudio

Macs have a few issues, but Windows has issues all the time, forever.


----------



## Kirosia

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nlaudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Macs have a few issues, but Windows has issues all the time, forever._

 

Only if you don't know how to use it. I'm on XP, and haven't really encountered anything a reboot didn't fix. (I leave my PC on for weeks at a time)


----------



## wanderman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nlaudio* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Macs have a few issues, but Windows has issues all the time, forever._

 

windows, ubuntu, and osx daily... and it is safe to say that most computer issues are user caused. My computers are running without problems.


----------



## Vayate

Most Windows issues are caused by hardware, usually that pesky bit between the keyboard and chair.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vayate* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most Windows issues are caused by hardware, usually that pesky bit between the keyboard and chair._


----------



## bangraman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vayate* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Most Windows issues are caused by hardware, usually that pesky bit between the keyboard and chair._

 

So true. 


 Things do not go away or catch viruses by themselves for me, and I have to say that Vista has been very good to me. Since I switched from XP 18 months ago it's been better, from a hardware + OS combination aspect, than my constantly-updated Macs. Unlike what seems to be 90% of the supposedly savvy tech world I'll be holding off upgrading to W7, and just following a natural new-machine migration.


----------



## LordZ

As a gamer, I can only point and laugh at Mac users. I suppose that if I had zero interest in games, I might change my mind about Macs but they currently have zero to offer me. Not interested in the Mac tax and the fact that it is at the highest for gamers. Also, I'd still have to do my gaming in Windows since OSX has crap support for games. It's like Apple goes out of its way to **** on gamers so all I can say is back at ya.

 That said, I setup an Acer laptop for my mom(which took little effort at all) and I haven't had any issues with it that were caused by the laptop itself. Personally, I consider their laptops a real bargain because they look nice(the screens) and work.

 I stick with strictly XP. I have Vista installed on my HTPC but that's only because I haven't gotten the energy or time to replace it with XP again. I only put Vista on there as an experiment and the results have been one headache after another. Maybe Windows 7 will find it's way onto it after it has been out a while. Currently, I haven't found any software solution to the HTPC that satisfies me and I've tried everything in both Linux and Windows flavors. I'm not even going to bother with trying OSX.


----------



## wanderman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LordZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...._

 

what type of computer are you gaming on. all my gamer friends are off of xp and have been 64bit vista or win7. Vista 64 is rock solid. 

 htpc: macs probably have one of the coolest htpc solutions with boxee. Boxee + mac mini is flipping sweet.


----------



## LordZ

The mac mini doesn't impress me. I can do better for less.

 Boxee sounds interesting but I'm sure that, like every other media software I've tried, it'll lack something important. I'll know when I try it.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LordZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also, I'd still have to do my gaming in Windows since OSX has crap support for games._

 

Are you sure it's not the other way around? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 That the guys designing and releasing computer games (Valve Software and like) have crap support for Mac OS X, since they have all their focus on MS Windows.


----------



## ajstark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *krmathis* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you sure it's not the other way around? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 That the guys designing and releasing computer games (Valve Software and like) have crap support for Mac OS X, since they have all their focus on MS Windows._

 

I agree krmathis they have no interest in the Mac.

 I used to be a big gamer. But I could not keep up with graphic card changes. All the latest games require the latest graphic cards which will be obsolete in a year and 6 months. I could not justify the cost to upgrade to the next generation of graphics cards.

 If I can run Photoshop on a computer I am happy. I only need a graphics card that can do that.

 Al


----------



## Al4x

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ajstark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree krmathis they have no interest in the Mac.

 I used to be a big gamer. But I could not keep up with graphic card changes. All the latest games require the latest graphic cards which will be obsolete in a year and 6 months. I could not justify the cost to upgrade to the next generation of graphics cards.

 If I can run Photoshop on a computer I am happy. I only need a graphics card that can do that.

 Al_

 

this is why ive given up on games, youre paying more in hardware than software


----------



## ozz

Most of my friends that are heavy into games bought the Playstation which they constantly try to get me interested in so far out of the bunch one guy still builds and
 plays games on his computer but the cubic dollar he has invested in that thing would
 have bought me 2 nice MBP's.


----------



## LordZ

I only upgrade once like every 4 years. I wait until my PC can't play any new games to upgrade and when I upgrade I spend less than you guys do on the cheapest Mac.

 As for consoles, I have all of them except the Xbox. I already have a PC, there's no need for an Xbox.

 The only people who spend more on hardware than software are people who either pirate all of their software, people who are insane and have to have the absolute best of the best, people who shouldn't even be calling themselves gamers because they only get like one or two new games a year.

 I just wanted to add that since my 486 in 1996, I've overhauled my PC only 4 times. The last time being an exception(I splurged), I spent on average around $600-800 on each overhaul. I easily have spent more than that on games in that time.


----------



## Aaquib

To add to above, PC gaming is nearing its death. Playing games on consoles are much more affordable and have the best content available. Not many publishers are even choosing to release PC versions of their games because they know it's just going to be pirated by 80% of the population playing the game. The last PC game I played was Unreal Tournament 3. Doing an assignment for Data, I came across an article which stated that over 10M people were playing UT3, while only 100K copies of the game were sold. 

 I have a MacBook Air and iMac, and never have really thought about playing games on them. OS X does everything, but games, flawlessly. I have Snow Leopard installed now on my Air, and it's _fast_. Even on this measly 1.6 processor, the whole OS just seems so much...lighter.


----------



## LordZ

You sound like a parrot for the DRM supporters. PC games are no where near dead. Further, it's even easier to pirate a console game than it is a PC game so don't hand me that line of crap that PC games are being pirated to death. Just because you don't have the skill to keep up with a PC game doesn't mean that I have to handicap myself by playing on a console.


----------



## Al4x

my last bought pc game was CandC3, doubt ill buy any more

 the new drm thing has shot me, but its perfect timimg, 

 1, drm comes out, -1 point for gaming
 2, laptop is now struggling with new games -1
 3, money is going on other more important things -1 
 4, no longer seem so interested - 1

 btw, i am in no way a mac supporter


----------



## Aaquib

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LordZ* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You sound like a parrot for the DRM supporters. PC games are no where near dead. Further, it's even easier to pirate a console game than it is a PC game so don't hand me that line of crap that PC games are being pirated to death. Just because you don't have the skill to keep up with a PC game doesn't mean that I have to handicap myself by playing on a console._

 

How is it "easier to pirate a console game that it is a PC game"? 

 To pirate a console game you need to not only have hardware and software knowledge to actually get into your 360 and flash the iXtreme firmware, and then on top of that need to be familiar with torrents to download and then burn the discs. Oh yeah, and that's for the 360. The PS3 can't even be hacked yet.

 On a PC all you do is download a game off torrent, apply the crack, and then you're off playing games. It's no where nearly as difficult as on a 360. Plus, many users don't bother pirating 360 games as it could easily get them banned from XBL. The only PC games selling are The Sims, WOW, and COD.


----------



## LordZ

Funny, I've bought a lot of PC games recently and none of them were the Sims, WoW or COD. Most of them came out this year.

 You say the 360 is so difficult to pirate but I know complete noobs who pirate 360 games day and night. Further, some PC games don't get a crack for months or years and a lot of the time cracked PC games have problems running. Meanwhile, pirated 360 games just simply work or don't work, depending on whether your mod can handle the game.

 I just thought I should note that the gotta have PS3 games can be counted on one hand because there's just that many that aren't on another console or on PC.

 I've said it before in another thread, I already own a PS3 and a Wii and both are collecting dust while I enjoy my PC for games. I never bothered to buy a 360 because the few games I would have bought a 360 for are on PC as well.


----------



## grawk

None of this has anything to do with the switch from pc to mac.


----------



## ZephyrSapphire

Macs are not for gamers.
 Macs are not for hardware junkies.
 Mac OSX is not for (heavy) tweakers.

 Macs are more expensive than Windows based computers.
 Apple has great customer service (But why bother? Unless you don't really know how to use a computer or even care for it)
 Both Windows and Mac OSX runs smoothly (if the user knows what he/she's doing)
 Both are safe to use (again if the user knows what he/she's doing)


 All in all. Why are we debating again? It intrigues me. As a group of individuals who know how computers work, I don't see an advantage of switching to Mac OSX. Aside from being able to use software which is for Mac OSX. I've had friends who'd switch from Windows to Mac OSX simply because they don't know how to take care of computers. Hell, I've been the one recommending them to switch. But I've also got friends who've done vice versa simply because of the limitations of Mac OSX.

 All in all, it's all about wants and needs. The day I'd get a Mac is the day I stop gaming and when my uni work does not require me to use Windows.

 Gamers shouldn't talk about Mac OSX or Macs.
 Mac users shouldn't talk about running Windows programs on Macs.
 Such irony in those two lines. *facepalm*


----------



## SillyHoney

I used to be like this:

   
  Then I become this:

   
  And I never look back too.
   
  There is nothing wrong with Mac. It's just you can do as much as on a PC. I love Apple style tho.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





sillyhoney said:


> I used to be like this:
> 
> Then I become this:


 

 As if Alienware is any less overpriced 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Nice necro bump though.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Quote: 





head injury said:


> As if Alienware is any less overpriced
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 lol seriously...not the best example of going from a Mac to a PC.


----------



## brandnewgame

Anything but Linux/BSD is a constant headache to me. I'd take an Intel Atom running simple lightweight software over a juggernaut running Mac or Windows any day. Each to their own, though


----------



## krmathis

Quote: 





sillyhoney said:


> I used to be like this:
> 
> 
> Then I become this:
> ...


 

 Ok, lets hope you do not regret it! 
   
  Quote: 





			
				brandnewgame said:
			
		

> Anything but Linux/BSD is a constant headache to me. I'd take an Intel Atom running simple lightweight software over a juggernaut running Mac or Windows any day. *Each to their own, though *


 
  Exactly!


----------



## mrarroyo

Well, after using PC's for almost 27 years I finally made the jump to the dark-side. Yesterday I ordered my first iMac! It is the 21.5" w/ a 3.06 GHz, 1TB HD, and a 256 MB video card. I know I will have a bunch of question on all the various ways of doing things and the associated software types out there.


----------



## Currawong

mrarroyo: Ask away, i'm sure a number of us will be happy to answer your questions. 
   
  I just upgraded my '06 MacBook Pro to a new Core i7 model.  I never thought that 3GB wouldn't be enough!  My wife (in spite of the cost) is most pleased with the upgrade, as she has been upgraded from a 1Ghz G4 Powerbook with 512MB of RAM (was 1GB but a RAM slot has failed) to 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo with 3GB of RAM!


----------



## aristos_achaion

brandnewgame said:


> Anything but Linux/BSD is a constant headache to me. I'd take an Intel Atom running simple lightweight software over a juggernaut running Mac or Windows any day. Each to their own, though


 

 Amen! Of course, if I could get a juggernaut running Linux...
   
  I've actually dual-booted my work Macbook Pro with Ubuntu...the only headache is that I have to daisy-chain Grub on the EFI and Grub on the MBR, but it's so much better than the eight-hundred-pound gorilla that was OSX.


----------



## krmathis

Quote: 





mrarroyo said:


> Well, after using PC's for almost 27 years I finally made the jump to the dark-side. Yesterday I ordered my first iMac! It is the 21.5" w/ a 3.06 GHz, 1TB HD, and a 256 MB video card. I know I will have a bunch of question on all the various ways of doing things and the associated software types out there.


 

 Nice move! I bet you will like it...
  Do not hesitate to ask questions. Lots of knowledgeable Mac users around here who can and will answer.


----------



## mrarroyo

Thanks guys, will ask once I have taken delivery of the iMac!


----------



## rhythmdevils

Quote: 





sillyhoney said:


> I used to be like this:
> 
> 
> Then I become this:
> ...


 

 so you used to use your computer to make music, and now you just sit around alone in the dark playing video games?  +1 for the mac


----------



## JxK

Compared to a PC macs do very little, but what they can do they do very well. If you're a computer neophyte, luddite, or just don't want to bother learning the intricacies of a PC then a Mac is for you - assuming you can afford it. Nothing wrong with that. For many people they really do make the perfect computer. But for me at least, being an MSC guy and all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I still prefer my PC.
   
  I think the picture below summarizes the differences rather well.


----------



## stang

I hate Macs. Much prefer my computer I built, personally. It's not just the OS Macs use, but how they are designed etc. I'd much rather be able to upgrade CPU, RAM and graphics cards easily like I do with a normal people's computer


----------



## rhythmdevils

so my two year old mac pro with 2 x 3 GHz processor and 13 GB ram and 6 x 2TB hard drives is a kids bicycle?  Absurd.  It's totally understandable that you want a PC so you can customize it and tinker with it.  But it's a bunch of rubbish that somehow a pc is faster or better in any other way.  It's debatable whether it's even that much cheaper.  And if you know what you're doing, macs are plenty customizable. 
   
  But I'm not a computer geek, I don't care about computers except for what they allow me to do.  I want them to work so I can spend my time using them to create things.  PC's drive me nuts.  I have no intention of learning a foreign language so that I can use my computer.  Like I said, I understand if that's what floats your boat, but the image you posted is a bit idiotic to be honest
  
  Quote: 





jxk said:


> Compared to a PC macs do very little, but what they can do they do very well. If you're a computer neophyte, luddite, or just don't want to bother learning the intricacies of a PC then a Mac is for you - assuming you can afford it. Nothing wrong with that. For many people they really do make the perfect computer. But for me at least, being an MSC guy and all
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## immtbiker

For the record, the ZX-10 is very easy to drive *and* handle.


----------



## sokolov91

Macs are great for when you need reliability and a rock solid system without having the linux know how.
   
  Unless you are a gamer, I don't see ANY advantage in having a PC. There is nothing a PC offers that a mac cannot do outside of gaming.
   
  Another very important thing is most people do not build their own computer, and preloaded Dells and other brands are absolute trash. Preloaded with garbage and processes you don't need. Anyone who wanted performance would have to reformat before even using the PC they bought.
   
   
   
  I have both a Mac Pro tower and a PC I built myself. 
   
  For photos, video editing, storage and homework the mac owns. It is easy, intuitive, rock solid, and many of the programs are a joy to use.
   
  My pc is noticeably faster, but it is also 3 years newer, is overclocked like a champ, has 12 fans and a heatsink the size of the moon on the CPU.
   
  If you are not computer literate, and I mean you do not know how to solve problems yourself, cannot build a computer yourself, cannot reformat, have no idea what a bios is etc etc, you should buy a MAC. The premium is well worth the peace of mind and functionality. No viruses, no issues, no crashing, hassle free experiences FTW
   
  If you are comfortable with computer parts and know how to turn windows from garbage into a usable OS, you should build a PC and use it. Even if you know this and do not game, you should go for a mac.


----------



## krmathis

Quote: 





jxk said:


> *Compared to a PC macs do very little*, but what they can do they do very well.


 

 Please explain!
  Cause how I see it you can do exactly the same on a Mac as you can on a PC. If you mean running specialized MS Windows application a Mac can run them as well. Either using Wine or native on MS Windows.


----------



## JxK

Quote: 





krmathis said:


> Please explain!
> Cause how I see it you can do exactly the same on a Mac as you can on a PC. If you mean running specialized MS Windows application a Mac can run them as well. Either using Wine or native on MS Windows.


 

 It's late, so I'll give a partial answer now and a better one later. Basically, allow me to state the obvious.
   
  1) Upgradability
       I cannot describe how much the lack of this feature annoys me with macs. Let's say I have a three year old computer that I would like to touch up a bit. With a PC I can buy a little extra RAM, maybe add another hard drive while I'm at it, and suddenly it's like I have a brand new machine. Not so with a mac. This relates to point 3 directly -- price.
   
  2) Compatability
       Software and hardware, it simpy is a fact that you'll have an easier time installing things on a PC. Sure, macs have their own versions of most of the common consumer programs, but for the most part they lack features in comparison to everything else that's out there.
   
  3) Price
       Per unit performance, macs have a _considerable _premium attached to the sticker price in relation to PCs. This problem is only exacerbated by the lack of upgradability.
   
  4) Operating System
       I don't like *the apple philosophy of insulating the user as much as possible from the inner workings of the OS *and machine. I would much rather be able to control, modify, and tweak when necessary. 
   
  Edit: Post 4 is where the discussion about how macs don't do as much as a PC will fall into, but it is too late now and I'm too tired to go into depth right now. Give me a chance to sleep and I promise to give a better, much more in depth answer tomorrow.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





jxk said:


> It's late, so I'll give a partial answer now and a better one later. Basically, allow me to state the obvious.
> 
> 1) Upgradability
> I cannot describe how much the lack of this feature annoys me with macs. Let's say I have a three year old computer that I would like to touch up a bit. With a PC I can buy a little extra RAM, maybe add another hard drive while I'm at it, and suddenly it's like I have a brand new machine. Not so with a mac. This relates to point 3 directly -- price.
> ...


 
   
  Counter arguments in bold above.

 So, the obvious reasons you provided were only the result of a novice MAC user, or an assumptive PC user. 
   
  Unless you are gaming, there really is no use for a PC. 
   
  Also, MACs have been very competitive for PCs the past few years, but up and down. The first MAC pro was one of the first quad core computers, and was a full 1000$ less than a competing Dell. Macbooks provide great quality parts, without the bloat and garbage that comes on pc laptops. For a long time Mac books were the best, and are still some of the best although they are less competitive since PC laptops dropped their prices. Mac books also have stellar battery life and do things like start up and shut down extremely fast - key for students.


----------



## grawk

1) it's no harder to add hard drive and memory to a mac than it is a pc
  2) in my experience, the mac versions of the software is generally better.  The exception is malware and virus checking software.  The mac versions of those are terrible
  3) the flip side of the price argument is that macs hold their value.  Total cost of ownership after 3 years is lower for the mac, because you have resale value.
  4) mac osx gives you MORE not less access to the underpinnings of the operating system.  Darwin/bsd is way more flexible than dos/cmd.
  
  Quote: 





jxk said:


> It's late, so I'll give a partial answer now and a better one later. Basically, allow me to state the obvious.
> 
> 1) Upgradability
> I cannot describe how much the lack of this feature annoys me with macs. Let's say I have a three year old computer that I would like to touch up a bit. With a PC I can buy a little extra RAM, maybe add another hard drive while I'm at it, and suddenly it's like I have a brand new machine. Not so with a mac. This relates to point 3 directly -- price.
> ...


----------



## sokolov91

Haha pwnd...
   
  What you wanna think, and what is actually the case aren't always homogenous JxK


----------



## rhythmdevils

I'm trying to think if I've ever heard an intelligent "pc is better than mac" argument, and I can't think of one.  They are always full of very old ideas that may or may not have been true years ago.  People who actually know how to use both systems don't make such strong statements and while they may have preferences, they can layout the advantages of each. 
   
  Of course, there are certain situations or uses that a pc will be better for.  But there are also certain situations and uses that macs are clearly better for.


----------



## brandnewgame

Quote: 





grawk said:


> 1) it's no harder to add hard drive and memory to a mac than it is a pc
> 2) in my experience, the mac versions of the software is generally better.  The exception is malware and virus checking software.  The mac versions of those are terrible
> 3) the flip side of the price argument is that macs hold their value.  Total cost of ownership after 3 years is lower for the mac, because you have resale value.
> 4) mac osx gives you MORE not less access to the underpinnings of the operating system.  Darwin/bsd is way more flexible than dos/cmd.


 
  My only experience is trying to access raw block devices for reading and writing in Mac OSX and, while it may not be very useful in this discussion, Apple placed some pretty hefty restrictions and gave me a huge headache. As I also don't like Apple's toolchain, I try not to develop for Mac.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote: 





rhythmdevils said:


> so my two year old mac pro with 2 x 3 GHz processor and 13 GB ram and 6 x 2TB hard drives is a kids bicycle?  Absurd.  It's totally understandable that you want a PC so you can customize it and tinker with it.  But it's a bunch of rubbish that somehow a pc is faster or better in any other way.  It's debatable whether it's even that much cheaper.  And if you know what you're doing, macs are plenty customizable.
> 
> But I'm not a computer geek, I don't care about computers except for what they allow me to do.  I want them to work so I can spend my time using them to create things.  PC's drive me nuts.  I have no intention of learning a foreign language so that I can use my computer.  Like I said, I understand if that's what floats your boat, but the image you posted is a bit idiotic to be honest


 
   
  Sick set-up.  I use a Macbook for personal use, in my opinion, my time is worth more than antivirus scans, reformatting, etc.  I don't work for my computer, it works for me.  Have a Macbook w/ 1.83ghz core 2 duo, 4GB RAM 2x320GB internal HDs that I set up for $550.  
   
  Soon moving up to a Macbook Pro 2.4ghz core 2 duo, 8GB RAM & 500GB 7200rpm HD for $1200.  
   
  Macs can be cheap too.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





rhythmdevils said:


> so my two year old mac pro with 2 x 3 GHz processor and 13 GB ram and 6 x 2TB hard drives is a kids bicycle?


 

 2 x 3Ghz? So a dual core? Is that a Wolfdale Intel processor (E8xxx) or, god forbid, an old Pentium D which isn't a true dual-core? I'd assume Wolfdale, which is fast but not by today's standards.
   
  How and/or why do you have 13GB of RAM? 6 x 2GB and 2 x 512MB? Or is this a typing error?
   
  I've been meaning to ask, but haven't felt the need to post.
   
  Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Soon moving up to a Macbook Pro 2.4ghz core 2 duo, 8GB RAM & 500GB 7200rpm HD for $1200.


 

 How is that cheap? I can buy a laptop with half the RAM and otherwise similar specs for under a grand, probably under $800 (not up to speed on laptop prices).
   
  I personally wouldn't pay so much extra for what's nothing but the looks and the OS. But I know how to use Windows, and I guess I understand some people's reasoning. I discovered last week that my mom didn't know she could copy and paste with the right mouse button _or _the keyboard, and has for years been using the File menu. Some people are just made for Mac.


----------



## rhythmdevils

Quote: 





head injury said:


> I discovered last week that my mom didn't know she could copy and paste with the right mouse button _or _the keyboard, and has for years been using the File menu. Some people are just made for Mac.


 

 for some people, the act of using a computer isn't what is fun, it's what you can do/make with a computer that is fun.  I would say that sums up a lot of the mac crowd.  It has nothing to do with intelligence.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





rhythmdevils said:


> for some people, the act of using a computer isn't what is fun, it's what you can do/make with a computer that is fun.  I would say that sums up a lot of the mac crowd.  It has nothing to do with intelligence.


 

 How does that sum up the Mac crowd when PCs can do just as much or more?
   
  Also, can you at least figure out if your Mac had 12 or 13GB of RAM? I'm actually kinda interested in knowing if they really did do something silly like 13


----------



## rhythmdevils

what I'm saying is that the PC crowd generally enjoys the process of tinkering with their computer to make it work as it should.  They may also have fun with whatever they do with their computer, but they also like putting the computer together, working on it, etc.  The mac crowd does not enjoy working _on_ their computer, they enjoy working _with_ their computer to do things or make things. Not always true, definitely a generalization.
   
  Here's a picture.  names have been changed to protect the innocent
   
  edit: no, it didn't come this way, it is one of the customize/upgrades that wasn't supposed to be possible on a mac.  But it was pretty easy.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


head injury said:


> How is that cheap? I can buy a laptop with half the RAM and otherwise similar specs for under a grand, probably under $800 (not up to speed on laptop prices).
> 
> I personally wouldn't pay so much extra for what's nothing but the looks and the OS. But I know how to use Windows, and I guess I understand some people's reasoning. I discovered last week that my mom didn't know she could copy and paste with the right mouse button _or _the keyboard, and has for years been using the File menu. Some people are just made for Mac.


 

 4GB of DDR3 on a single chip costs about $350-400 at this point.  So your point is?
   
  You have to use right-click or the keyboard to copy/paste in a Mac too.  Have you ever used OS X?


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> You have to use right-click or the keyboard to copy/paste in a Mac too.  Have you ever used OS X?


 
   
  Yep, and I know that. I also enjoyed the smart-ass smiley there on the end 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I'm saying there are some people not knowledgeable about the uses or workings of a PC who would prefer a Mac. This was just used as an example. She would be equally useless with a Mac, if not more so.
   
$304.99. Of course, I don't know how fast the RAM in your laptop will be. I'm also in the camp that believes 8GB of RAM is unnecessary for most applications, especially in laptops, but I understand if you want it or could use it that it costs more. What are you planning on doing with your laptop, image and video editing?
   
  While I'm on Newegg, here's a good comparable laptop. It even comes with a pretty good mobile GPU. Bad battery life because of it, but a little looking around will find one without it. $300 for that RAM and this and you've got a $1000 system that's just as good for image and video editing and can play some games without breaking a sweat, too.
   
$1200, already has 8GB RAM, faster processor, also has a GPU.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


head injury said:


> Yep, and I know that. I also enjoyed the smart-ass smiley there on the end
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I thought your example had something to do with the "some people are just made for mac" that came right after it.  So that's why I didn't get the whole copy-paste example.  
   
  Anyway, I wasn't trying to compare hardware set-ups, obviously PCs are cheaper, I'm just trying to point out that if you're willing to buy used & put in a little elbow grease, they're _affordable and not as expensive are people like to make out_.  I was just pointing out the fact that OS X is largely more reliable, and requires less babying than Windows, which is important to me.  And if you have to pay a little extra for hardware that works seamlessly with a superior OS in most respects, then so be it.  If there was a full-size laptop that worked seamlessly with OS X like the Dell Mini 10v netbook does, then I would probably buy that.  But for now, OS X is just plain 'money' and therefore hardware that supports it perfectly is too.
   
  As far as 8gb not being useful, I'm in the camp that believes that in 4-5 years it will be, and 4-5 years down the line, you can still be in your first OS X install running perfectly smooth.  Not one maintenance measure in between.  At least, that's the experience I had, so I'm sold on the OS.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> I thought your example had something to do with the "some people are just made for mac" that came right after it.  So that's why I didn't get the whole copy-paste example.
> 
> *That was my point. People who don't understand computers are better off with Macs. Not people who don't know how to copy-paste, just people who don't get stuff like that.*
> 
> ...


----------



## sokolov91

When the first Mac Pro towers came out, they were atleast 30% cheaper than the competition, and the mac books used to be light years ahead of the pc laptop crowd. It is only recently that PCs have dropped their prices when it comes to high end parts. MAC was the the first company to offer substantial workstations for reasonable prices.
   
  Sure, iMacs and Mac minis are not very cost efficient in a purely hardware sense but it doesn't make them slow. Macs will always be a bit slower than PCs because they use RAM of much higher quality, but has higher latency. 
   
  Windows is a Jenga tower. the longer you have it running, the more blocks get pulled out until the B**** needs to be reformatted AGAIN. Macs enjoy a much much much longer uptime and pleasant expirience. I have only reformatted my mac once since I bought it is 06. My pc which I have had for 10 months had been reformatted like 3 times. To be fair, the reformatting was for performance and speed and not out of necessity, but windows quickly slows to a halt the longer it runs. 
   
  Also, even if the processor is not absolute state of the art it does not make make is significantly slower either. We are talking at most 20% in synthetic mostly synthetic benchmarks, that for the price of constantly upgrading, to most means nothing
   
  And again it is the reliability and up time that most people see as the best feature of a mac. 
   
  There is denying pcs offer more flexibility and better prices, but they are not perfect.


----------



## krmathis

Quote: 





jxk said:


> It's late, so I'll give a partial answer now and a better one later. Basically, allow me to state the obvious.
> 
> 1) Upgradability
> I cannot describe how much the lack of this feature annoys me with macs. Let's say I have a three year old computer that I would like to touch up a bit. With a PC I can buy a little extra RAM, maybe add another hard drive while I'm at it, and suddenly it's like I have a brand new machine. Not so with a mac. This relates to point 3 directly -- price.
> ...


 

 See comments in *bold* above.
  Also worth mentioning that several of your point is not related to how much they do "*Compared to a PC macs do very little"...*

 Sounds like you have little knowledge of what you talk about!
   
  Can't wait for your better, much more in depth answer.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





sokolov91 said:


> Macs will always be a bit slower than PCs because they use RAM of much higher quality, but has higher latency.


 

 Source please, particularly for the "much higher quality"? I believe their Macbooks use 1333MHz DDR3 while some PC competitors use 1066MHz, but from my experience overclocking RAM to 1560MHz from 1333, that difference does very little for general performance outside of benchmarks. I actually underclocked the RAM to 1170MHz for a week to try to prevent BSoD a heavily modified game of mine was causing, and noticed no differences in either framerate or general computing. RAM timings and frequency are probably the two least significant impactors of general performance, though it helps in heavy video editing and the like.
   
  And don't diss processors. 1300-1400x FLAC ReplayGain scanning is pretty awesome


----------



## TheAwesomesauceShow

If I could get a mac for $700-800 I would consider buying one. But alas, I probably stick to my windows machine.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


head injury said:


>





> *You think that's what you're paying for? All the hardware in a Mac is made by the same companies, to the same standards. Sometimes special ordered to fit smaller cases or whatever, but I believe the all-in-one Macs use laptop parts (don't quote me on that). You're paying for nothing but the shiny case and OS. But hey, if an OS is worth a 50% or more markup to you, so be it.*





> ------





> *In 4-5 years you might have all the RAM you need, but your processor will be lagging behind everything else. At the rate hardware improves, it's not worth getting an expensive laptop unless you need one. I made that mistake with mine, got one with a graphics card because I thought I'd play games. I barely did, and now I'm stuck with a machine that's hard if not impossible to upgrade. Oh well, I only spent $750 for it. Buying hardware for future investments is silly, IMO. Unless, of course, it doesn't cost you so much.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Ok, it's common knowledge the same companies make parts for Mac that do for PCs, not sure how I implied otherwise.
   
  Logically speaking...if you want to use OS X, then you would buy hardware that it supports right?  Seeing as not all hardware is supported by OS X, buying a $250 Dell Mini 10v that supports it perfectly is smart.  Or buying a Macbook which supports it perfectly is smart.  Or building a hackintosh is smart.  (Look up any guide to building one, they always have a list of compatible hardware.)  Also, there's money to be saved if you're willing to install hardware upgrades yourself or buy refurbished.  And maybe Apple would reduce their retail prices if they had any real competition.
   
  I would consider your having to 'trouble-shoot' with a little 'googling' part of what I like about not needing to do on a Mac.  (What hardware troubleshooting do Macs have to do again?)  And I exclude those who _enjoy_ troubleshooting from this argument.  Because just because someone _likes_ to fill up gas at the pump doesn't mean a Prius is any less fuel efficient.  
   
  And I do keep my laptops around for 4-5 years, even if the processor is outdated, in my experience the computer still worked at 85% compared to contemporary machines, (maybe that's why I can afford a Mac?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## cyberspyder

I just saved $300 on my car insurance!
   
  Back to the topic at hand...I just purchased a quad-processor G5 with the 23" Cinema Display for $50...at that price, you can't compared it to a Windows machine. I will only buy a mac when it is substantially discounted.


----------



## sokolov91

Quote: 





head injury said:


> Source please, particularly for the "much higher quality"? I believe their Macbooks use 1333MHz DDR3 while some PC competitors use 1066MHz, but from my experience overclocking RAM to 1560MHz from 1333, that difference does very little for general performance outside of benchmarks. I actually underclocked the RAM to 1170MHz for a week to try to prevent BSoD a heavily modified game of mine was causing, and noticed no differences in either framerate or general computing. RAM timings and frequency are probably the two least significant impactors of general performance, though it helps in heavy video editing and the like.
> 
> And don't diss processors. 1300-1400x FLAC ReplayGain scanning is pretty awesome


 

 It is due to the ECC RAM... error coding correcting. Makes the latency quite a bit higher, but much less prone to errors. If you ever looked at benchmarks Macs get for gaming even with substantial graphics cards, running windows, they are always slower than a PC counter part due to the RAM architecture.


----------



## sokolov91

I dunno what happened to the quote :S 


> It is due to the ECC RAM server class ram that, to my knowledge, all mac models use... error coding correcting. Makes the latency quite a bit higher, but much less prone to errors. If you ever looked at benchmarks Macs get for gaming even with substantial graphics cards, running windows, they are always slower than a PC counter part due to the RAM architecture.


 

 but you are right, overclock the actual frequency of the ram has negligible effects in many situations. However, latency and hz are not always related and in this case they are not


----------



## JxK

Wow. I have to admit, I really didn't think my lowly post would garner such attention. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 OK, where to start? Perhaps, in the name of good sportsmanship and all, I'll begin with where I was wrong. I don't have the experience with macs that dedicated users have, so I'll concede the points about Macs not being able to do everything windows machines can _for regular users_. More on this later.

 Now, onto the good stuff.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If macs are no worse than PCs (and I don't feel they are any better) what substantive advantage does the regular user have? Internet is internet, e-mail stays the same, and with a larger market share the supposed virus immunity isn't going to last once hackers start focusing more on macs.As far as I see it, you're paying a 50% markup for a pretty case and good looking UI. Eyecandy. Of course, not being a regular user and all, I may be missing something, and I'll leave that open.
   
***​ 
 But now let's shift gears and focus on the business side of things. I originally said macs are very limited in what a user can do, and from my experience on the business side of things, that is in fact the case.

 When bringing a mac into the workplace, first one must be able to connect and integrate his/her mac onto the usual Active Directory/Exchange based network. Let me tell you, it's not a pretty picture. In fact, it's downright ugly. IT is helpless, and apple support are worse. The few macs we have on our network (a very few) are basically islands onto themselves. Worse than useless for the most part. In fact, starting in a few months, the organization has moved to completely ban macs in the workplace for this very reason alone.

 Let's move onto one other issue I mentioned earlier as well: compatibility. Maybe for regular users it isn't so bad (although mac software is alot more expensive than windows software). But once you get into specialty programs things get a bit worse. Programs like Autocad and SOAPware, for instance, aren't natively supported. Now, there is boot camp or VMware out there which are _supposed _to work and alleviate this problem. Maybe it works for some.  It didn't work at my workplace (some 3500 networked computers). Another reason why the organization is just banning macs - it was hell for IT and was just plain bad for productivity. (note: calling 1800-myapple was also a waste).

 This brings me to my last point: price. I don't see a practical advantage for regular users, but if they just like the eyecandy and the way they intereact with OS X, that's fine. But for a business? Hell no! From start to finish macs at the workplace were a total nightmare. There is no way to possibly justify paying so much for something that does so little. And is so hard to integrate. And that IT doesn't support. _And that apple's own support can't fix._

 Maybe, just maybe, there's a reason why macs haven't made the kind of headway into the business sector that PCs have (although they must work for some since it is growing a bit).


----------



## rhythmdevils

have you read any of the posts in this thread?  multiple people have responded in multiple different ways to multiple points in your post.


----------



## JxK

^I read the posts. They're enough to show me that I'm no expert at all when it comes to macs and personal computing, something I've already acknowledged. But what  do the multiple posts in this thread have to do with the fact that at my workplace at least, trying to incorporate macs was a dismal failure? If it works for other businesses, that's fine. But in my experience, in a business environment, macs were worse than PCs in virtually every practical facet. All the posts in the world won't change that single immutable fact. That the organization is issuing a blanket ban on all macs is testament to their failure (in our working environment and experience) as a viable platform.


----------



## rhythmdevils

for one thing, you're talking about the target pc consumer, the business.  You can't just say that a pc is better because it's better at your work.  That's like saying that an AKG K271 is better than an HD800 for studio use because you need a closed headphone for studio use.  It's just not a very sound argument.  unless you're just saying that pc's are better for your business. 
   
  My point is that it has nothing to do with the platform.  If macs were currently used in businesses everywhere, than all the software would work on them, and pc's would be the ones that wouldn't work and would be banned because everyone uses macs and pc wouldn't get along. 
   
  what a lot of people are saying is that the mac OS is heaps better than windows, and the hardware is at least as good.  and that's worth whatever extra money to some people. 
   
  If I had to use a pc, I wouldn't do what I do.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Quote:
> 
> Ok, it's common knowledge the same companies make parts for Mac that do for PCs, not sure how I implied otherwise.
> 
> ...


 

 Having to pray every time you do a software update that it wont screw up your software install isn't really that great.  That's what you get using a Hackintosh.
   
  Apple have constantly been reducing their retail prices, due to shareholder pressure more than anything.  They aren't interested in competing with the cheap throw-it-out-the-door vendors.  While everyone was saying they should make a netbook, instead they've designed multiple game-changing devices that have created entire markets and completely changed others.

 For the next bit, replies are in bold below:
  Quote: 





jxk said:


> Wow. I have to admit, I really didn't think my lowly post would garner such attention. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JxK

Quote: 





currawong said:


> Apple are hopeless at selling solutions to large businesses.


 
   
  With this I have to disagree. Apple is just following a slightly different approach to this. Whether it will work remains to be seen, although it is working so far.
   
  Basically, as I see it, Apple just reversed Dell's business strategy. What Dell originally did was mass market its computers to businesses as business machines. The philosophy was that if everyone at your workplace uses a dell, than most likely when it comes time to order a computer for home use employees would also order a Dell. It worked. And thus Dell grabbed both halves of the market.
   
  Apple, unlike Dell, instead chose to market to the general public. The philosophy was that if the Mac is so very good for home use, then people might be tempted to try it out for  business use. And if a CEO happens to own a mac at home, he just might decide that for the next upgrade the entire company will get macs. It worked (so far at least). That's part of the reason apple's market share in the industry is growing.
   
  They clearly didn't have the problems we did.
   
  @Currawong
  I'll also admit that your other points are salient. If I ever have the chance, I would certainly enjoy trying out a mac for personal computing. My experience at the workplace has (if you haven't guessed by now) left a bad taste in my mouth for macs, so trying them out at home would be nice. Heh, for that matter I would welcome the chance - should I find the time- to try out Ubuntu as well.


----------



## odigg

Full disclosure: I've used windows all my life and will probably switch to Linux if I ever switch.
   
  It's interesting to me that people are still having (on many forums) the Mac versus Windows argument.  I've seen (and been a part of) big Linux, Mac, and Windows deployments in businesses and one large university.  Every system has major kinks - even Windows desktop products sometimes fail to interact with Windows server products or worse (two server products by the same vendor don't work easily with each other).
   
  IMO all three operating systems have reached the point where they do a large majority of what "average joes" and even advanced users (e.g. programmers need) and they do them with speed, ease, and stability on even older (5+ years old) systems.  You could give any WORKING system to a person and they could use them without major complaints.
   
  Linux, MacOS, and Windows in 1998 - now that's an interesting argument.  Linux and MacOS users were delusional.  Windows users had so many problems there was nothing to be delusional about 
   
  IMO where Windows and Windows based hardware vendors are failing is in a) selling to the general public and b) technical support after the sale.
   
  To talk about a)
   
  When I go into major electronics retailer I really feel sorry for a lot of the buyers.  There is a cacophony of hardware, much of which seems to be configured to confuse the buyer and squeeze maximum profit from greatly increasing the possible twists from the salesman's mouth.  Beyond that, Microsoft made the asinine decision of having multiple versions of their ONE operating system.  So if the hardware isn't confusing enough, the salesman can say "Oh this one has Home Premium 32 bit so it's not going...".  "You'll be upgrading to 8 gb of RAM in a year the future so you'd better get the X windows version."
   
  Compare this to buying an Apple product.  I'll bet you could narrow down the answer to "Which computer should I get" to 3 or 4 questions (e.g. How portable does it need to be).  Figuring out which computer you buy is actually pretty easy.  To a lot of people Apples restricted choices are better, especially since the variety of configurations on Windows systems really makes little practical difference (2.4 ghz versus 2.66ghz - big difference right
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )  
   
  To talk about b).
   
  IME the service you get from Windows hardware vendors has fallen to a pathetic level.  Back in 1998 a major online computer vendor called one of my friends and scheduled an at home appointment to replace a fully working hard drive that *might* be defective.  Two years ago I went through an irritating process with the same well known vendor.  The hard drive in my wife's laptop was failing.  But since their "diagnostic" did not detect a problem it was obviously a software (read: Windows) problem not a hardware problem.  I wasted 2 hours on the phone and so much for "at home" service.  I'm glad hard drives are so cheap because I cloned the failing drive to a new one and voila - the problem went away!
   
  Compare this to Apple.  You typically have a store you can drive to, even if it's an hour or two away.  If I get frustrated and angry, it's with a real person, not some voice on the phone.  I can demonstrate the problem to them and they can't use the "We didn't make the operating system" excuse.  They also can't say "Well this computer came with XP but you installed Vista on it so we don't support it."  It's an Apple product from software to hardware so deal with it.
   
  Maybe to a computer geek (like me) all this doesn't really matter.  I usually build my own computer and can solve problems myself.  But I know plenty of people who can't and have sat on the phone arguing with technical support about what requires and does not require "at home service" or what needs service at all (It's a software problem so it's not our problem).
   
  As for the cost of buying a Windows machine versus a MAC, I think Apple kicks you in the privates when you buy the machine, but not later.  Windows hardware vendors give you a lower buy in price, but then progressively kick you in the nuts when you have fill in some of the gaps (e.g. Windows 7 built in backup solution is only fully featured on some Windows versions and even then it's not that great...)
   
  Apple simplifies things (sometimes way too much) but I think they've done a pretty good asking what they could to to keep the customers happy during and after the sale.  I think vendors who sell Windows and hardware that runs Windows really need to kick themselves and realize a computer needs more support than a microwave or TV does.  Dell tried with the Kiosks and Sony with Sony Style stores.  I won't even get into those...
   
  Small (read: local) vendors were pretty good at support the Windows systems they built.  But most of those are gone and mostly people buy laptops now - local owners can't make those.  It's just the big vendors now.
   
  My apologies if I'm repeating what's said in this thread.  I didn't read the entire thing.
   
  *edit* -  I'm not trying to say Apple customer service is magical or anything of the sort.  I've read enough complaints to know people have had major problems.  I'm just pointing out the benefits of having a physical location to visit (Apple store) and having the hardware and software from the same vendor.


----------



## JxK

I'm just happy that I've had relatively few problems, and those I have had I either knew how to fix, figured out how to fix, or went online and found an answer for.  For my dad, when he needed a new computer, I recommended a local computer shop I know. It's a one man business - consultation, hardware, software, and in his case the construction of a desktop PC. It is a well built machine, very cheap compared to anything you'll find in a store or online, and as you stated the service is top notch. Call basically anytime, six days a week, and if there's a problem just drive it over and you usually get it fixed that day.
   
  Local vendors rock!


----------



## krmathis

"If your OS is categorically forbidden by a massive corporation, you blew it."
   
FT.com - Google ditches Windows on security concerns
Google said to be moving away from Windows internally, Mac and Linux systems on tap instead


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





jxk said:


> With this I have to disagree. Apple is just following a slightly different approach to this. Whether it will work remains to be seen, although it is working so far.
> 
> Basically, as I see it, Apple just reversed Dell's business strategy. What Dell originally did was mass market its computers to businesses as business machines. The philosophy was that if everyone at your workplace uses a dell, than most likely when it comes time to order a computer for home use employees would also order a Dell. It worked. And thus Dell grabbed both halves of the market.
> 
> ...


 

 Uhh, where can I begin with this, other than with "No"?  
   
  First, Apple are hopeless at selling entire solutions to businesses as the Wintel companies are.  They just don't have the kind of sales and support teams Dell, HP and the like do, let alone Microsoft or any of its relevant vendors.
  Second, major companies don't choose to go with a vendor because the CEO uses the same brand of computer at home. While there is an increase in people using them, and people in major businesses aren't as put off as they used to be by the idea that Macs are no good in business, that's a far cry from a major business switching from Wintel to Mac. It's more likely that the switch to web-based "cloud" solutions will remove a lot of the interoperability issues that have shut out Macs, but big businesses are VERY slow moving and such a change would be too much for them.  
  Third, I don't know the status of Apple's market share in business, but I'd say it's still quite small.  They have always had a strong education presence. 
   
  You should try a Mac at home. It'll be different and you may find it uncomfortable at first, but if you appreciate the attention to detail and functionality over the discomfort of the unfamiliar, then you'll love it. 

  
  Quote: 





odigg said:


> Full disclosure: I've used windows all my life and will probably switch to Linux if I ever switch.
> 
> It's interesting to me that people are still having (on many forums) the Mac versus Windows argument.  I've seen (and been a part of) big Linux, Mac, and Windows deployments in businesses and one large university.  Every system has major kinks - even Windows desktop products sometimes fail to interact with Windows server products or worse (two server products by the same vendor don't work easily with each other).
> 
> ...


 

 Nice write-up.  Incidentally, you'll be amused to know that the bane of Apple's existence is support.  It's easy for people like us, who know our way around computers to know how things are, but if you remember that 99% of people are clueless and remember all the silly things they do, then Apple's decisions, such as preventing batteries being changed in iPods and iPhones suddenly makes a lot of sense.  The geeks criticise them not realising that many decisions were aimed at everyone else.
   
  Incidentally, I just bought a new MacBook Pro 15" 2.66 with the 1680x1050 matte screen and the thing is like a _sculpture_ sitting on my desk, not a computer.  The screen is so good (anyone with sense gets the matte and not the lets-fake-it glossy) that I think I'm going to have to ditch my cheap 24" Samsung -- there's a pic of my daughter on the desktop on the Mac's screen and I just want to stare at it, each individual hair on her head standing out.  Turning back to the Samsung i just unpleasant. The lid closes with the kind of _thunk_ reserved for luxury cars, a far cry from the dodgy latches of my old one, let alone any Wintel laptop.  Ok, I'll shut up now, but you get the idea.


----------



## odigg

Quote: 





jxk said:


> Local vendors rock!


 

 Yes - if they are a good local vendor.  Back in the local vendor heyday (around 1996?) many local vendors were just as bad (some much worse) than the big vendors now.  I think by Apple stores replicate the idea of a good and trusted local vendor, which the Windows industry has totally lost sight off.  I think that's part of why the Apple store idea is so refreshing for many people.  Since Windows hardware vendors have been offering crazy low prices and (IMHO) dishonest promises of service, reliability, and support, many people have abandoned local businesses for big retailers.
   
  For people who have been using good local vendors for years, the Apple store idea isn't anything new.  Actually, it might come off as a little crazy and antiseptic.

  
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> Third, I don't know the status of Apple's market share in business, but I'd say it's still quite small.  They have always had a strong education presence.


 
   
  Apple's presence in the education sector was hurt a lot in the late 90s and early 00s.  The prices of Windows based systems were falling quickly and software makers were moving to Windows from other established (and overpriced) antiquated systems (e.g. MacOS, SGI+IRIX).  There was also the growth of the networked environment, which was a total failure on MacOS. Thankfully (for Apple) OSX came along.
   
  As for Apple in education today, I think growth has started again over the last few years.  However, one major issue is the restricted hardware.  For a desktop system you have a choice of an iMac or a Mac Pro.  The former is too inflexible for upgrades (you have to replace the entire system - monitor included - during upgrades), and the Mac Pro is too expensive for a computer lab when a lot of students need little more than internet access, office software, and basic use software like SPSS.
   
  Apple needs to stuff something other than the between the iMac and Mac Pro.
   
  And, as you have pointed out, Apple isn't really geared to sell in volume like Windows vendors.  A lot of educational facilities buy a lot (500+) computers at a time.
   
  Quote: 





currawong said:


> Nice write-up.  Incidentally, you'll be amused to know that the bane of Apple's existence is support.


 
   
  I think the bane of every computer vendor is support.  As a tech nerd and a professional, the bane of my existence is support.  Reducing these sorts of questions is in the interests of both the vendor and customer!
   
  Especially since many of these questions make tech support people want to smash their heads.
   
  I do agree with many Apple decisions that frustrate tech geeks actually end minimizing the support customers need and thus the support Apple has to provide.  I think it also simplifies the support Apple does provide.  Apple is pretty good at figuring out what the majority don't need and taking it out.


----------



## Currawong

Quote: 





odigg said:


> I think the bane of every computer vendor is support.  As a tech nerd and a professional, the bane of my existence is support.  Reducing these sorts of questions is in the interests of both the vendor and customer!
> 
> Especially since many of these questions make tech support people want to smash their heads.
> 
> I do agree with many Apple decisions that frustrate tech geeks actually end minimizing the support customers need and thus the support Apple has to provide.  I think it also simplifies the support Apple does provide.  Apple is pretty good at figuring out what the majority don't need and taking it out.


 

 You're right, I probably should have said this, having been between customers and vendors with support issues many times myself, each vendor responding differently to issues.  Maybe a better way to put it is, Apple have been addressing the support issue primarily in their product design, whereas other vendors address it after the fact, sometimes well, sometimes extremely poorly.


----------



## immtbiker

Luckily, since I bought the 3 year extended warranty for my iMac, I've only called support twice and they have been very helpful.
   
  Las year, I spilled a glass of red wine onto my keyboard of my Macbook Air which rendered the MAC useless, The Apple store wanted $700 to repair it, so I took it apart myself and found that there is a bladder under the keyboard that helped keep the wine from invading the electronics.
  I was able (with the help of a knowledgeable friend) to remove the aluminum chassis that houses the keyboard and for $75 and made it work like new. i figured that I was going to trash it anyway, so I figured, why not try.
   
  It's still working and saved me $625.


----------



## odigg

Quote: 





currawong said:


> You're right, I probably should have said this, having been between customers and vendors with support issues many times myself, each vendor responding differently to issues.  Maybe a better way to put it is, Apple have been addressing the support issue primarily in their product design, whereas other vendors address it after the fact, sometimes well, sometimes extremely poorly.


 

 Yes, that's very well put.  I don't like Apple's ecosystem, but this holistic thinking applies to Apple's entire product line, including stuff like Apple TV, Ipod, etc.  Apple (thankfully) tries address the headaches and destructive (to the average consumer) fragmentation that has occurred in the Windows world and that might happen (I hope not) with Android.
   
  I can't believe this - I don't own an Apple product (probably never will) and have been cursing Apple products since the MacOS days, but I'm praising *some parts of* Apple's philosophy.  I never thought I had it in me.


----------



## elbuzzard

Quote: 





rhythmdevils said:


> so you used to use your computer to make music, and now you just sit around alone in the dark playing video games?  +1 for the mac


 

 So F'in funny.
   
  Im sticking to mac forever in fear of what happened to SillyHoney.


----------



## stang

Lol I hate Mac's. Relatively hard to find them when compared to your normal desktop PC. They don't look all that good IMO either. The software costs twice as much as its Windows counterpart. They can hardly be upgraded. Trying to play games on them is a huge hassle. Heck, even trying to find a game that will work on a Mac is an issue. I hate the OS Mac uses. It is boring, dull and there is barely anything to do compared to Windows.
   
  It is dead easy to build a computer. I started 2 years ago when I was 14. It is dead simple and researching different components is a whole lot of fun and in the future it is very simple to upgrade again. Heck, why pay $2000 for a Mac when you can build your own PC or even buy an already made one that can actually play games etc.
   
  I wouldn't pay anything over $500 for a Mac. The only thing they are useful for imo are playing music and surfing the web. Standard computers can also do that and much, much more...
   
  I don't see the point in Mac's. I have tried to, but I just find that they are a pointless waste of time and money.


----------



## Uncle Erik

stang, some of us have better things to do than play videogames. I'd rather bill hours or, hell, sit out back with a cold beer and a warm cat than fiddle with framerates and registry errors. Upgrades? Screw that. I find five or six year old machines perfectly adequate. I replace stuff when it breaks, generally. But I haven't had problems with my Macs, not even the old //fx or SE30 I keep around because I like them. Money really isn't much of an issue these days, either. I don't give much of a crap since they're reasonable and - most of all - don't give me any trouble. When you've burned 12-15 hour days in the office and still have a family business to look after, hardware that doesn't need to be dicked with or an OS that needs perpetual patches and reboots is just what you need. Something that works is comforting. Maybe when the obligations, commitments and responsibilites of being an adult start to weigh on you, the point of the Mac will become screamingly, painfully obvious. Until then, have fun spending countless hours researching video cards and playing games. Your life won't be like that forever; enjoy it while you can. Sooner or later, you won't give a crap about performance specs or a couple hundred dollars. You'll be tired, worrying about a bunch of things, planning what you have to do tomorrow, and will just want a machine that simply works.


----------



## Blisse

Obviously we have better things to do than play games. But some of us are young.

 I think a lot of people don't understand that most people have their first computer, and they can't get anything else, so they make it work. They find any problems, and they fix it. It's whether you get a Mac, or a Windows, or a Linux first that makes us like that platform. And because we made it work out when we had it, we can say that it performs better than another option, because it does in our mind. We've stuck with it so long, that it just feels right to have and use.
   
  Apple makes consistantly quality products. It works. And it does a lot of things. It doesn't do them amazingly, but it doesn't do them bad. Ever. There are exceptions. Windows does everything. But it can also do everything wrong.
   
  I just enjoy how much more freedom I have to do things with windows. Some people don't need that because they've settled down. I do, because there's a long way to go. Because it can do everything, there's always new things to try. And when it doesn't do it right, hey, everyone loves a bit of problem solving.


----------



## krmathis

Stang. Perhaps we just have more productive things to do than playing games.. 
  But to each their own. I prefer a computer that just works, every single time. Year after year...


----------



## stang

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> stang, some of us have better things to do than play videogames. I'd rather bill hours or, hell, sit out back with a cold beer and a warm cat than fiddle with framerates and registry errors. Upgrades? Screw that. I find five or six year old machines perfectly adequate. I replace stuff when it breaks, generally. But I haven't had problems with my Macs, not even the old //fx or SE30 I keep around because I like them. Money really isn't much of an issue these days, either. I don't give much of a crap since they're reasonable and - most of all - don't give me any trouble. When you've burned 12-15 hour days in the office and still have a family business to look after, hardware that doesn't need to be dicked with or an OS that needs perpetual patches and reboots is just what you need. Something that works is comforting. Maybe when the obligations, commitments and responsibilites of being an adult start to weigh on you, the point of the Mac will become screamingly, painfully obvious. Until then, have fun spending countless hours researching video cards and playing games. Your life won't be like that forever; enjoy it while you can. Sooner or later, you won't give a crap about performance specs or a couple hundred dollars. You'll be tired, worrying about a bunch of things, planning what you have to do tomorrow, and will just want a machine that simply works.


 

 Lol well I rarely game now, but when I do, I want to be able to play any game I please without any performance issues at all. I am on head-fi almost all day (it is school holidays atm), but rarely post. I play video games maybe 5 huors a week, so yes, I am becoming less and less interested in computers. I usually work with my uncle over the holidays, or someone I know from 9-5 for the week. After that, all I want to do is relax, and yes, want everything to run perfectly.
   
  Still, I dislike Macs. I like fixing errors, overclocking, upgrading etc. It is all fun, but I do understand later in life I will not have time to do this. Still, I do not see myself buying a Mac. They are damn expensive (I guess this is worldwide, not just in Australia) and if you know what software can run on what etc, a normal PC with Windows installed will do me just fine without hassles. It is not until you start messing around with Windows itself that you get errors. Well, unless you have Vista hahaha. What a load of crap. Windows 7 is so superior. It is like Windows Vista but with Windows XP compatibility and performane (better, even).
   
  I used to spend days getting that last mhz overclock on my CPU. Spending hours stress testing, recording temperatures and what not. All fun, but if you do not know what you are doing or have no patience, stay away, far away.
   
  "Money really isn't much of an issue these days, either." Heh. Well I guess everyone and their families do have vastly different incomes...This is one reason I build my own computers. I can save hundreds, even thousands of dollars. Rather than going out to buy a Mac just to be upset it has slow performance (to me), I can easily upgrade my current system, instead of selling off that Mac with a loss of money. As a teenager, I suppose this is normal if you love technology. Barely any teenages I know like Macs.
   
  Oh and about sitting back with a cold beer and a warm cat. Legally, I am not allowed to drink 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nor will my cat actually let me have her on my lap. As soon as I pick her up she tries to jump down again. Boy cats are completely different, however...


----------



## zotjen

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Until then, have fun spending countless hours researching video cards and playing games. Your life won't be like that forever; enjoy it while you can. Sooner or later, you won't give a crap about performance specs or a couple hundred dollars. You'll be tired, worrying about a bunch of things, planning what you have to do tomorrow, and will just want a machine that simply works.


 

 So I guess we shouldn't worry about headphones, amps, sources, cables, tubes, etc.


----------



## Kirosia

In defense of gaming, I haven't had issues with any title releases in quite a while. (Haven't updated video card drivers in a year either.. though I probably should) I am contemplating on upgrading from WinXP to Win7, but I'd still need a new HDD (clean install) and new/more RAM.
   
  Maintaining Windows really isn't much work once you get everything setup. Just got to make sure to update your software and completely remove traces of un-installed apps.


----------



## Anaxilus

PC's are either for those that want to save money, know how to operate a PC, know how to build a PC, know how to fix a PC, like the extended PC library, don't like Apple's products, strategy, philosophy or image.  Apple's are for people that like eye candy in their software, hardware, like touching or clicking icons, will never open up their device, don't mind paying too much for something, like believing their computer won't ever crash or get viruses.  I have been fortunate enough to have never bought a PC from any manufacturer in my lifetime.  Always built by myself from quality components that would shame any Apple product.  I know this because I know some people that make all these 'quality' Apple products.  You would be surprised to know how little separates any Apple product from some crappy Dell or HP.  Many times made in the same factory!  Usually its just a shiny aluminum box and pretty OS to convince people they are getting 'quality'.  No Macbook is tougher than my Thinkpad.  Anyone have a Macbook certified for space flight by NASA?  Of course not.  Anyway, I always believe if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself.  If you want to do as little yourself as possible then Apple is perfect.  I'm sure one day when Apple tackles thinking for yourself, there'll be an 'App for that'.  From the looks of it, it's been under development and in Beta for sometime now.  I did buy a Macbook for my mother thinking it would save me time from troubleshooting and explaining technicalities.  Hasn't turned out that simply though.  Kind of like picking a different sound signature.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Anaxilus, I would like to disagree.

 For one, in addition to my Apple gear, I run a couple of Linux boxes, as well as some old machines. I built the Linux boxes myself, installed the software, and know how to maintain Linux. I started running Linux back at the end of 2002, so I know my way around the command line. When I want to muck around with computer stuff, I really enjoy Linux. Also, I really enjoy the fact that I can ignore the Linux boxes for months and they stay up.

 On the other hand, I like OS X and iOS because of the ease of use and lack of issues.

 I'll take a guess that you're young, probably still in school, and have some free time to poke around with a PC. That's great, and I hope you enjoy having a lot of empty hours. But your life won't always be like that.

 I'll be 38 in a couple of weeks and have a job that works me something around 60-90 hours a week. When I have free time, I help run a family business. I've got a few other obligations and commitments, as well. That leaves me maybe 10-15 hours a week to screw around.

 If you had 10-15 hours a week, would you want to spend three or four of those maintaining Windows? I sure as hell don't. You can make noise about the additional cost, but when you've put in nine years of higher ed and make a fair amount of money, a few hundred extra is nothing. Further, you usually make that up on the other end because Apple gear tends to hold its value. So the additional cost is very little. The benefit of being able to instantly check email, go online, type a document, without having to do heavy maintenance is a blessing when you're pinched for time.

 Windows just isn't worth it. Aside form games (which I don't play), there's no good reason not to run OS X or Linux. They're stable, they have years of uptime, and you can count on them to work. When you're older, and have lots of obligations and possibly a family, the last thing you're going to want to do is spend a lot of time keeping a computer running. We're a good 30 years into the computer revolution - there's no excuse for unreliability.


----------



## Anaxilus

Well, I'm 35 and a Veteran so I have been around.  As a matter of fact, my Thinkpad went to war and still works despite the Pelican case being destroyed.  I'd like to see a Macbook do that.   It still has some moondust from the desert in it too.  I don't spend any excess time 'maintaining' Windows.  Dollar for Dollar I get greater quality and flexibility in an equally reliable and better performing package IME.  My PC is 5 years old w/ relatively minor upgrades (couple sticks of RAM and a faster GPU).  It was better than any Mac when I built it then and arguably just as good or better as anything they make now from factory.  My handpicked components keep humming along.  When I bought my Mother's Macbook w/ Snow Leopard the first thing it did was crash.  My best friends Macbook fried itself, his sister's crashes and has compatibility issues w/ 3rd party stuff.  Sorry, I don't buy the Apple 'convenience'.  Just not for me.  Apparently not so much for you if you are maintaining a couple of Linux boxes?  I digress...I never said one was better anyway.  Just another sound signature.  Different strokes for different folks.  I'll take my Touch Pro 2 over any iPhone anyday also.
   
  Edit - Do you know how many times iTunes has ruined my Audio archive?  How many times I have had to rerip my collection??  It's great when an iPod w/ the wrong setting tries to sync w/ your collection and throws your whole archive into a mass grave of a folder called 'Various'.  How about importing Apple lossless ripped from a previous version of iTunes into a newer version?  Yeah, the epitome of wasted time.  Apple can burn in hell.  I should stop, the more I think about apple the angry I get.


----------



## mrarroyo

Time for a beer!


----------



## krmathis

...and the pointless discussion just go on and on and on and on....


----------



## Skrying

A Windows system could easily be just as easy to use from the start if OEMs would not ruin the experience from the start. Honest. Microsoft makes some tremendously good software that is absolutely free but never gets preloaded because Microsoft won't pay the OEMs to do so. Much of the price on a low end computer is offset by those bundled applications. It's sad but a reality when you're looking for a $400 machine.
   
  It would be wonderful with a new Windows 7 computer if you got Windows 7 + Microsoft Security Essentials + Windows Live Essentials. That's all the average user needs. For the most part it's all very good software too!
   
  Windows 7 is great. It is not garbage by default. OEMs trying to make every last penny make it garbage. It doesn't take a PC expert to make Windows 7 great, it takes OEMs who would be willing to charge $20 more a system to make it great.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





krmathis said:


> ...and the pointless discussion just go on and on and on and on....


 

 So I guess you just have to post something like this in a 'pointless' thread to get to 33,107.  Maybe you should avoid posting or reading threads that don't interest you.  Did you run out of applications to run on your Macbook?


----------



## Uncle Erik

Anaxilus, I don't doubt your experiences, but I just haven't had the problems you describe. If I did, then yes, I might feel differently.


 However, my brother-in-law and I converted the entire family (even extended family) mostly to OS X. That was because we were tired of fielding free "service calls" from family when their Windows boxes went down. I'd say there are a good 20 machines running and neither of us have had to help anyone out so far. We've lended a hand hooking up new gear, but have yet to have a panicky phone call because something doesn't work. We've got a few running Ubuntu because they didn't want to buy new computers. They don't have problems, either.

 I should add that I also keep some old machines alive. There a Mac IIfx and SE30 still going with System 6.0.8, an old Apple ][gs and even a NeXT Cube and an old Sun with a SPARC inside. I don't have a lot of time to play with them these days, but these machines have held up the better part of 20 years.

 Also, I don't take computers into the field. I do think highly of the ThinkPads - my brother-in-law runs one with Ubuntu and loves it. If I had to go into rough situations, it would be at the top of my list. But around town, air travel, and the usual urban thing, the MacBook hasn't given me any trouble.

 Linux doesn't require much maintenance. I still have Fedora 4 running on one machine. I haven't checked the uptime lately, but it's into years at this point. When it goes down, like you, I'll put high quality parts into the case and I'm sure I'll get several good years out of it. Better than a Mac? I don't know, but I don't think Apple is the only good manufacturer out there. There's a lot of good manufacturers.

 Windows 7 might be better than Microsoft's previous offerings, but Microsoft has repeatedly torched my faith. Even if they offer a good product, I'm pretty leery of them. I don't do business with United Airlines or Bank of America for the same reason. I don't care if Microsoft has cleaned up its act, I don't trust them. Maybe they will some day, but for now, I don't see any reason to do business with them again.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Anaxilus, I don't doubt your experiences, but I just haven't had the problems you describe. If I did, then yes, I might feel differently.
> 
> Also, I don't take computers into the field. I do think highly of the ThinkPads - my brother-in-law runs one with Ubuntu and loves it. If I had to go into rough situations, it would be at the top of my list. But around town, air travel, and the usual urban thing, the MacBook hasn't given me any trouble.
> 
> Windows 7 might be better than Microsoft's previous offerings, but Microsoft has repeatedly torched my faith. Even if they offer a good product, I'm pretty leery of them. I don't do business with United Airlines or Bank of America for the same reason. I don't care if Microsoft has cleaned up its act, I don't trust them. Maybe they will some day, but for now, I don't see any reason to do business with them again.


 

 Everything you said is exactly how I feel about Apple.  Sounds like you and I are on two different sides of the same fence, strangely enough for pretty much the same reasons.


----------



## ozz

I started out using a PC as most of my friends and still have to use one at work but since one of my friends convinced me to try a Mac I have not looked back
  sold all of my PC 's and on my second MacBook Pro they may not be for everyone but for what I use it for it works well.


----------



## mikaronni

I've basically been using a PC all my life. My most recent one was a HP desktop, but its motherboard kept dying despite 4 replacements. I was tired of lousy customer service, so I felt like the dead computer was a great opportunity to switch over to mac and picked up an iMac on sale over the holidays. 
 It's been about 8 months since I've had my iMac and with the small issues I've had, Apple has been more than pleasant to deal with. It was such a refreshing thing to be able to talk with a representative immediately and go to the Genius Bar for immediate fixes. 
 Aside from that though, Mac OS X has not been all that "wow" for me. I have a netbook that I use to take to class that runs Windows 7. In terms of usability, I feel Windows 7 is just better. The Dashboard feature on Mac is nice, but Windows' taskbar just simplifies things greatly. Also, I thought I would get used to having one menu bar, but it's still pretty annoying after all these months. Maybe it would be fine on the 13" Macbook, but when moving the mouse across the 21.5" screen, it's just bothersome (sounds petty but when doing that constantly, it just sucks). I also love how Windows gives you so many more options when you right-click an item.  
 After these experiences, I'm probably going to switch back to a PC. At the price point of the iMac, I think its quite reasonable when comparing to other competitors' all-in-one computers. However, it was really surprising when I calculated how much $1000 can do when assembling your own computer. The components and power are outstanding. My brothers have always been building their own computers that last for many, many years and have minimal problems and its simple for them to replace components if anything fails. I'm probably going to follow this, since it is nice to just swap out major components without actually having to get a new computer. 
 All in all, this is a nice experience to use a mac though. It at least finally gets rid of my urge to buy Apple computers. I will miss the form factor, how great the iMac looks, and the customer service, but all that is just not worth it for the faults I find in OSX.


----------



## elbuzzard

Quote: 





mikaronni said:


> I will miss the form factor, how great the iMac looks, and the customer service, but all that is just not worth it for the faults I find in OSX.


 

 you named two faults:  right click options and having one menu bar.   How about mixing in some keyboard shortcuts?  just sayin.


----------



## mikaronni

You bring up a good point elbuzzard. I guess there are other "faults", but they don't seem fair, because I've been raised using Windows so I know my way around that operating system more comprehensively. In the end, it's probably just my preference.

 In a way, this "how I was raised" reasoning sort of applies to keyboard shortcuts. I've never had to use them before, so I'm really used to just using the mouse. 
   
  In no way am I saying OSX is bad. I was able to learn how to use it in a day easily, but again, I just prefer Windows 7. I guess hearing rave reviews of macs, I expected something that wasn't there. People would tell me that they can't go back to Windows after using OSX, but I find this to be false. (Then again, this was back in the Vista days.) I can go back to Windows 7 and be perfectly fine with it.


----------



## grawk

You can do quite a bit with right clicks on the mac.  Basically the same things you can do in windows.


----------



## onef

I've been terribly discouraged to write anything in this thread due the collection of long-winded computer stories, but I'm bored, so here it goes:
   
  To start, I've been using Linux since Slackware 1.0, and owned a //e. I used to have a huge distaste for Macintosh in the 90's due to compatibility / programming limitations on their Motorola processors. But, once I read that they're updating their image, using Intel, and basing their new OS on UNIX, I was sold. So this network engineer decided to dive in head first with the Mac extravaganza. It took three months for mine and my friend's MBP 15" (Which were purchased at the same time) to stop functioning due to failed fans and constant overheating. It took six months for the logic board in my iPhone 3G to overheat and completely fail beyond repair. And finally, it took a whopping year and a half for the hard drive in my 500GB time capsule to start clicking.
   
  My Tandy 1000RLX still operates and functions perfectly to this day. The //e I decided to use as a stress management tool, and destroyed. Now, was this some freak accident in which all three Apple products were seriously lacking in quality for a single customer? I think not.
   
  I agree that the stylish approach to electronics, and the super pretty and user-friendly environment of OSX is great. I also agree that you can't polish a turd, no matter how expensive the polish.


----------



## ozz

I guess I have been fortunate with all my Apple gear only had one failure the vram on a 2006 MacBook Pro and since
  it had been superseded so many times decided on a new one rather than have it repaired but all electronics fail at some
  point if they don't become obsoleted first . Some of the reasons for more failures in all new brands no matter who made them are
  due to the fact processors are a lot faster and hotter running than 5 or 6 years ago and crammed into tighter spaces.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





onef said:


> I've been terribly discouraged to write anything in this thread due the collection of long-winded computer stories, but I'm bored, so here it goes:
> 
> To start, I've been using Linux since Slackware 1.0, and owned a //e. I used to have a huge distaste for Macintosh in the 90's due to compatibility / programming limitations on their Motorola processors. But, once I read that they're updating their image, using Intel, and basing their new OS on UNIX, I was sold. So this network engineer decided to dive in head first with the Mac extravaganza. It took three months for mine and my friend's MBP 15" (Which were purchased at the same time) to stop functioning due to failed fans and constant overheating. It took six months for the logic board in my iPhone 3G to overheat and completely fail beyond repair. And finally, it took a whopping year and a half for the hard drive in my 500GB time capsule to start clicking.
> 
> ...


 
   
  To keep things short:
   
  My friends family have experienced a few Apple catastrophic failures in the past.  What's funny is his father's company makes most of the Apple products you find and he recommends avoiding them.
  
  Quote: 





ozz said:


> Some of the reasons for more failures in all new brands no matter who made them are
> due to the fact processors are a lot faster and hotter running than 5 or 6 years ago and crammed into tighter spaces.


 

 Hmm, my 3 year old Thinkpad w/ a Core2 Duo and workstation Nvidia graphics card handled 110 degree weather and desert sand being sucked in through the fans for more than a year and still runs great.  Whats even funnier, or perhaps sad, is it still has Vista on it.


----------



## Currawong

A friend of mine, a diehard Apple fan, wont buy anything they make that uses Intel, as he reckons, reasonably enough, that they are rubbish.  I told him that I'd just bought a new MacBook Pro 2010 version, and the engineering was far better internally than my previous 2006 model.  Apparently SJ had told HonHai engineers to go shove it and had Apple's in-house engineers do the design.  It shows.  Yes and yes about vintage electronics being better.  _However_, any vintage stuff that has died is long gone, so all that is left are the ones that didn't.  I point this out to said friend (and others) who reckon the G3 Powerbooks were the best they ever made.  I used to sell them, and sure as hell, they weren't.  But, like I said, the ones that are still around now aren't the ones that died.
   
  Now I could get into PC manufacturers...but lets not.  Whenever friends wanted to buy non-Apple laptops, I would take them into a mate in a store I knew well, and ask him what he has been selling lately that hasn't been coming back faulty or dead, and is on sale or going on sale soon. The only sucky thing is, setting up Windows not to be a load of fail for the friend.  That's a huge pain that isn't required with Mac OS X.


----------



## ozz

I think people get the wrong impression on how long something should last if you use your computer everyday from sun up to sun down then obviously it will not last
  as long as someone who may only use it an hour or two each day and depending on how hard you tax said computer there are so many variables it would be impossible to confirm which brand holds up better because so far I have never seen to like scenarios. Its a tool buy the one you feel comfortable with quit bashing
  the other brand who ever it is they obviously got what they wanted we all use a computer deferentially there is no one size fits all.


----------



## Anaxilus

That's funny about the G3 powerbooks.  At the time Steve Jobs was at NeXT he was using Thinkpads and even called powerbooks crap when his daughter wanted one for college.  He bought her a Thinkpad and even brought one w/ him when he went back to Apple telling everbody that was the quality standard they should be shooting for.
   
  While there is no one size fits all, it's naive to think you should just pick whatever you 'feel' comfortable with.  There are serious differences in how some companies select components and engineer their products.  Obviously this thread isn't concerned w/ people happy to dump money on crap products (Dell) or those that don't care.  I think consumer education is better for the marketplace and better for me if I get a better product from the competition.  Sadly, most consumers are divided into two camps (Cheap vs Cool/Pretty) and quality suffers for it.  IMO


----------



## elbuzzard

I thought of one thing I wish OSX had.  In windows you can just copy and paste the absolute path location into a "save as" field or any explorer window for that matter.    Anybody know a quick way to do this in OSX?


----------



## faisal2003456

Just to elaborate, Macs ARE PCs. You can install Windows on it too, so I wouldn't ever write Mac versus Windows. OSX versus Windows makes more sense. IMO OSX should go die a fiery death. If you don't want to use Windows go install Xubuntu or something like that. Windows 7 is fantastic. Don't blame Microsoft if you are installing every application you find, not uninstalling anything, downloading everything, have no anti-virus, don't take care of what applications boot on start, etc.... Computers don't maintain themselves.


----------



## grawk

Quote: 





faisal2003456 said:


> Just to elaborate, Macs ARE PCs. You can install Windows on it too, so I wouldn't ever write Mac versus Windows. OSX versus Windows makes more sense. IMO OSX should go die a fiery death. If you don't want to use Windows go install Xubuntu or something like that. Windows 7 is fantastic. Don't blame Microsoft if you are installing every application you find, not uninstalling anything, downloading everything, have no anti-virus, don't take care of what applications boot on start, etc.... Computers don't maintain themselves.


 

 Snow Leopard comes close enough to maintaining itself that I'm glad to not have to worry about it.  I'll leave maintaining systems to the ones I'm paid to work on.  My free time is too filled with fun things to want to worry about the computers too.


----------



## faisal2003456

I have fun maintaining my PCs. XD


----------



## grawk

That's obviously your choice.  When I was younger, I spent more time tinkering with things for fun as well.


----------



## sphinxvc

Microsoft sponsored Windows 7 promo video:  http://gawker.com/5366070/host-your-own-awful-party-for-windows-7
   
  Sad.


----------



## woof37

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> Microsoft sponsored Windows 7 promo video:  http://gawker.com/5366070/host-your-own-awful-party-for-windows-7
> 
> Sad.


 

 Ewwww.  Fail.  Who approved that trainwreck?


----------



## Anaxilus

MS ruined Windows Mobile.  Enjoy your journey into FAIL MS, you and everyone else that follows the Apple model deserves it.


----------



## Sparky191

What the world needs. Another thread of people telling everyone else how they couldn't do something. 
   
  Inspiring stuff.


----------



## dirkpitt45

I Lol'd at the $3500 for a laptop in the OP. 
   
   
  Only thing I have against Macs is the price, my 1.2k pc demolishes the 5k mac pro. The hardware is pleasing to the eye, but not to the brain. I'll take an pc any day for as long as apple keep charging double their hardware prices with shiny white and silver bodies... 
   
  Also at the whole "maintaining your pc" thing, other then cleaning out my hardrives I really don't do anything "maintenance" other then day1 set up. I've worked in IT repair for a few years and I learned that almost all pc problems are user created. Hardly ever ran into anything (software wise) that broke itself (other then known bad programming). Which stands to reason Macs are easier to use, and people are lazy. Seems to be a winning combo for apple, can't say I blame them for the huge mark-ups, I just won't buy any though.


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote:  





> I've worked in IT repair for a few years and I learned that almost all pc problems are user created. Hardly ever ran into anything (software wise) that broke itself (other then known bad programming). Which stands to reason Macs are easier to use, and people are lazy. Seems to be a winning combo for apple, can't say I blame them for the huge mark-ups, I just won't buy any though.


 

 QFT.  
   
  When you have a Vulcan deathgrip on available content you reduce the potential for third party and user error, Linux kernel or not.  I still think Windows 7 is a more user friendly GUI than OSX, YMMV.  Sadly if Windows Phone 7 is an indication of the future of MSFT I'll be dumping them just like Apple.  I don't believe in paying someone to restrict my freedom as a tech user.


----------



## dirkpitt45

^ TBH, windows phone 6.5 is complete crap for the most part. Though there was an update for the zune software, and now there's a bunch of windows phone 7 apps and stuff, along with a whole place for movies and t.v. shows, exactly like itunes. And I'm in Canada, so of course still no apps for my zune hd, but apps for win phone 7 which hasn't even had a Canadian carrier announced.... I'm sure WP7 will be miles ahead of 6.5. 
   
  Though it's true that windows 7 with a rocket dock or object dock, UAC disabled, and ultramon (if you have more then one monitor) is pretty hard to beat in terms of usability. Plus I find .dmg files to an annoying format for an installer package. From my (limited) experience they seemed to act exactly like an .iso file would on a pc. Which seems like a rather broken file type to use, though it would save on programming time, treat everything as a disc and don't worry about it.


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


anaxilus said:


> When you have a Vulcan deathgrip on available content you reduce the potential for third party and user error, Linux kernel or not.


 

  
  Controlling their products is what makes Apple so successful, they seem to have concern about what kind of experience reaches their users. It has it's drawbacks of course, people don't like to be controlled.  So it's that and their award winning design both with their operating system and machines.  I own a Macbook Pro and it's physical design is awesome.  No unnecessary blinking lights, for example, and just plain clean cut and functional, after all, that's what design is about, contrary to what most people think.  Looking good is just a by product of keeping things simple, not vanity.  I find the trackpad is of a much higher quality (more responsive) than what you get with most Windows laptops.  Some people find that not having a dedicated right click button is bothersome, but it's a matter of placing two fingers on the trackpad and clicking the button, I think that takes the same amount of calories as moving your thumb to the right click on a windows laptop trackpad.  I think most people that have trouble using Apple OS X are usually those that have to adjust to it after acclimatizing to a Windows environment.  Similar to older people having trouble with learning new languages.  Kids and people willing to learn something new would have zero problem getting comfortable with OS X.  Apple cares about design more than Windows which is great because every new OS from Windows picks up some things from OS X.  Compare Apple's System Preferences menu to Windows Control Panel.  You'll see what I mean about better functional design.  Apple has a higher priority for information organization and user experience.  Windows has other priorities, it of course, is more flexible with hardware and software and thereby more cutting edge.  
   
  The biggest problem with Macs as I've come to understand are their prices.  The only way you can get a Mac for as much as a PC is to buy a horribly broken one and repair it yourself, speaking from experience.  And even still, the PC market is so much more cutting edge hardware wise.  There's a 18" Toshiba laptop out there with a 2.53GHZ i5 - 4GB DDR3 - 500GB HD & 1.5GB VRAM for $1200.  A Mac couldn't compete with those specs at that price till 2014, guaranteed.  That Toshiba is looking tempting so it's a good thing Macs have good resale value - 800 for my 2007 MBP!  =P


----------



## Roger Strummer

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> The biggest problem with Macs as I've come to understand are their prices.  The only way you can get a Mac for as much as a PC is to buy a horribly broken one and repair it yourself, speaking from experience.  And even still, the PC market is so much more cutting edge hardware wise.  There's a 18" Toshiba laptop out there with a 2.53GHZ i5 - 4GB DDR3 - 500GB HD & 1.5GB VRAM for $1200.  A Mac couldn't compete with those specs at that price till 2014, guaranteed.  That Toshiba is looking tempting so it's a good thing Macs have good resale value - 800 for my 2007 MBP!  =P


 


  You are sort of right. IMO if you want exactly the kind of machines apple offers, then they are more expensive but it is not that bad. But if you want something slightly different, then you are screwed. For example, I've been looking at both gaming laptops and ultraportables, and Apple's offerings are not that great for my use now, I can get exactly what I need from a PC without having what I don't need, for example if I want a Core i5 with cool graphics card and 13'' or lower, then my luck is out with Apple, they don't even give me the choice to spend in their computers. And don't get me started with their desktops, I've been so disappointed with their offerings for ages now.
   
  So bottom line I think the biggest problem is lack of choice, it gets frustrating very fast.


----------



## ls20

i feel the same.  i started on IBM-compatible PCs 16 years ago in grade school.  many custom builds, workstations, laptops, netbooks later, i got a 13" unibody MBP.  999$ (+tax) out the door at a local store.  OS initialized after about 3 questions, has virtually never needed to shut down/reboot, keeps a long charge, and wakes up in a snap of finger. 
   
  for those who wants to clean prepackaged crapware; hunt through %program files, %app data and delete remnants files even after an uninstall; peck through registry for start references sometimes in hklm, sometimes hkcu, sometimes hku; win.ini; startup folder.... brag about how many KB on their L3 cache...  more power to them.
   
   
  for day to day usage, the mac hardware and software works, seamlessly, EASILY, and without fail. good enough for me. 
  Quote: 





grawk said:


> That's obviously your choice.  When I was younger, I spent more time tinkering with things for fun as well.


----------



## MadCow

Thought I'd share my Mac story here...
   
  This was last year when I was looking for a laptop for portable photo editing -- so my main criterias were a good screen, lightweight and long battery life.
   
  My major obstacle in choosing a computer was the "good screen" criteria. Most notebook review sites were too subjective about the screen and did not give out any information that I found useful. I eventually found notebookcheck.net, which not only measured brightness and contrast ratios but also color gamut as well. However, they did not measure this for all their reviews. I suppose if they didn't measure it, it probably wasn't good enough to be worth the time.
   
  So after a bunch of searching, I eventually narrowed down my selection to a MacBook Pro, a Dell Studio XPS 16 with RGBLED upgrade, or a high end Dell Precision M6400 with RGBLED upgrade. Those were the only three practical options that I thought I'd be able to find locally, and all three had very good color representation for a laptop screen.
   
  I was turned off by the Precision's price, and wasn't too impressed with the XPS 16's battery life and weight. If I'm already carrying >10kg of camera equipment on my back, I'd want the laptop to be as light as possible. So my final choice was a 13" MBP, and as an added bonus it was the cheapest option among the three.


----------



## immtbiker

After using PC's since Windows 1.0 and Macbooks for the last 10 years. I choose the Macbooks any day. My boot-up and shutdown time is less than 10 seconds, I can actually shut my cover for a month without coming back to a blue screen of death, consistently, and my connection to any wireless network, being it home or hotel is also done in a matter of seconds. I can count on one hand, the number of times my last 3 Macbook laptops have actually locked up.
   
  As with all things, I'm willing to pay a little more for something that actually works. I have owned home PC's and at least 10 work laptops and they are nothing but constant trouble.
  I'm going with the path of least resistance. Apple.
   
  Their 3G Touch and 5G Nano are wonderful components also.​


----------



## sphinxvc

Quote:


roger strummer said:


> You are sort of right. IMO if you want exactly the kind of machines apple offers, then they are more expensive but it is not that bad. But if you want something slightly different, then you are screwed. For example, I've been looking at both gaming laptops and ultraportables, and Apple's offerings are not that great for my use now, I can get exactly what I need from a PC without having what I don't need, for example if I want a Core i5 with cool graphics card and 13'' or lower, then my luck is out with Apple, they don't even give me the choice to spend in their computers. And don't get me started with their desktops, I've been so disappointed with their offerings for ages now.
> 
> So bottom line I think the biggest problem is lack of choice, it gets frustrating very fast.


 
  I agree.  If you're a power user or budget user, Windows is the way to go.  If you're like what 95% of users in the world are like, Mac's probably the way to go, if you can afford one.


----------



## DJGeorgeT

A good mac is a dead mac.


----------



## dirkpitt45

sphinxvc said:


> I agree.  If you're a power user or budget user, Windows is the way to go.  If you're like what 95% of users in the world are like, Mac's probably the way to go, if you can afford one.


 
   
  Um pretty sure apple has a %10.6 share (http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/13/idc-apples-now-third-largest-pc-vendor-in-us-with-10-6-percent/), and if %95 of people used macs we'd be stuck at least a generation or two behind, hardware wise, indefinetly. 
   
  Windows is not budget, but it can be, windows is versatile.
   
  The issue with Macs is the same as Monster (excluding the turbine series, more pertaining to beats and cables). All you're paying for is the "precision aluminum unibody enclosure", a white LED, some gray paint, and the oh so glorious fact that you own a mac. You're paying for the name and not the hardware. There is no point in defending apple's prices or performance/price ratio, if you have money to burn and want to feel special, by all means buy a mac. 
   
  Which is perfectly fine, I have nothing against apple or people who use macs. Personally I'm more a price/performance kind of guy, bought a 32gb zune hd for almost half the price of an 8gb touch. I lose the LOD option, but being able to carry my entire library plus a movie or ten is more then a good trade off. I could've bought a macbook, I was honestly about to pull the trigger last year, until I discovered some pc forums. Then I learned a good deal about pc's (much the same as audio and this forum) and I've never considered a mac again. I now have a pc that is ridiculously fast, almost 2tb of internal storage including a SSD, a 5870, and it cost me a good deal less the 15" macbook pro I was eyeing.


----------



## ls20

pretty funny you say that, because i dropped off my dell m6400 (same as above) to the IT group today so they could reformat it.  problem?  it locks up 50% when computer goes to sleep.  i like that i can shut the cover on the mbp, flip it open, and surf the web and not seemingly have to sit and wait for the wireless connect to re-establish. 
   
  if i hook it up to an external monitor (whether a television, projector, or 2nd monitor), i can yank the connection and get back to work.  theres no Fn + F7... no forcing a switch of the display... no restoring of the original resolution.... it just does what you want
  Quote: 





immtbiker said:


> After using PC's since Windows 1.0 and Macbooks for the last 10 years. I choose the Macbooks any day. My boot-up and shutdown time is less than 10 seconds, I can actually shut my cover for a month without coming back to a blue screen of death, consistently, and my connection to any wireless network, being it home or hotel is also done in a matter of seconds. I can count on one hand, the number of times my last 3 Macbook laptops have actually locked up.
> 
> As with all things, I'm willing to pay a little more for something that actually works. I have owned home PC's and at least 10 work laptops and they are nothing but constant trouble.
> I'm going with the path of least resistance. Apple.
> ...


----------



## ls20

the advantage of an apple laptop is 50% hardware and 50% software.  on a desktop i dont care whats sitting at my feet as much as whats being displayed in front of me.  on a laptop, it very very much matters on the build -- is the screen hinge smooth; does the keyboard type nicely; does the case squeak when you touch it;  does the battery last under reasonable use.  these little things are all a matter of functionality and they do matter.....not to mention the more polished OS.

 you say you havent owned an apple computer.  but you read that PCs are better.  way to jump on the bandwagon.   (ps. the apple glasspad is KILLER)
   
  computer "speed" hasnt been an issue for me for about 8 years.  the days of hardware as a performance bottleneck for most users has passed.  i dont play games.  i dont use my mac in public.  i dont put the mac sticker on my bumper.  i dont write blogs at starbucks.  its not expensive.  but it is easier to live with day to day.  if you feel some resentment towards a computer based on what you heard from "pc forums", its quite an unfortunate myopia.
  Quote: 





dirkpitt45 said:


> The issue with Macs is the same as Monster (excluding the turbine series, more pertaining to beats and cables). All you're paying for is the "precision aluminum unibody enclosure", a white LED, some gray paint, and the oh so glorious fact that you own a mac. You're paying for the name and not the hardware. There is no point in defending apple's prices or performance/price ratio, if you have money to burn and want to feel special, by all means buy a mac.
> 
> I could've bought a macbook, I was honestly about to pull the trigger last year, until I discovered some pc forums. Then I learned a good deal about pc's (much the same as audio and this forum) and I've never considered a mac again. I now have a pc that is ridiculously fast, almost 2tb of internal storage including a SSD, a 5870, and it cost me a good deal less the 15" macbook pro I was eyeing.


----------



## Roger Strummer

Quote: 





dirkpitt45 said:


> Um pretty sure apple has a %10.6 share (http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/13/idc-apples-now-third-largest-pc-vendor-in-us-with-10-6-percent/), and if %95 of people used macs we'd be stuck at least a generation or two behind, hardware wise, indefinetly.
> 
> Windows is not budget, but it can be, windows is versatile.
> 
> ...


 


 Actually that 10% figure is only in the US, worldwide Apple is not even a top 5 manufacturer, with a market share that probably hovers around 5%. But yeah, with lack of options there comes the thing that you end up paying for things that doesn't matter to you. If you want them then everything is great and Apple's hardware is just slightly more expensive, but if you don't want them then you can get much better deals for your needs, just as you did.
  
  Quote: 





immtbiker said:


> After using PC's since Windows 1.0 and Macbooks for the last 10 years. I choose the Macbooks any day. My boot-up and shutdown time is less than 10 seconds, I can actually shut my cover for a month without coming back to a blue screen of death, consistently, and my connection to any wireless network, being it home or hotel is also done in a matter of seconds. I can count on one hand, the number of times my last 3 Macbook laptops have actually locked up.
> 
> As with all things, I'm willing to pay a little more for something that actually works. I have owned home PC's and at least 10 work laptops and they are nothing but constant trouble.
> I'm going with the path of least resistance. Apple.
> ...


 


  I agree that macs tend to be more reliable for people that don't want to fiddle with their computers, but the situation with both windows and linux is that they are not far behind if any, win7 was a very good release and linux can be great for some needs. Although personally I think it is not a race of what computer/OS is the best, but which one sucks less, there hasn't been any computer or OS that I've owned that I didn't want to throw out the window pretty frequently.
   
  Also Apple's hardware is far from perfect, since times of the ibook G4 they have produced quite a few lemons, its also a matter of luck, I've seen great experiences with PC's and macs, and awful experiences with both.


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## sphinxvc

The sad thing about these "whose idea was it" Windows 7 commercials is that it was Apple's idea, when they made OS X.  7 is basically Windows with features of OS X added to it.  Its great, cause Windows is finally intuitive.


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## Roger Strummer

Quote: 





sphinxvc said:


> The sad thing about these "whose idea was it" Windows 7 commercials is that it was Apple's idea, when they made OS X.  7 is basically Windows with features of OS X added to it.  Its great, cause Windows is finally intuitive.


 


  I really like Mac OS X, but I have never bought those arguments. Every OS copies features from quite a lot of other's peoples systems, and there is no such thing like the best OS, for example Spaces Apple copied it from Linux, and Ubuntu copies a lot of ideas from Win/mac. It would be actually pretty dumb to try to invent the wheel every time, and no OS is the ultimate innovative that never copies, and in fact OS X has done its fair share of copying, which is not a bad thing. But Win7 is as much Apple's idea as OS X was Microsoft's idea, thinking about with a dualistic approach oversimplifies things IMO.


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





ls20 said:


> pretty funny you say that, because i dropped off my dell m6400 (same as above) to the IT group today so they could reformat it.  problem?  it locks up 50% when computer goes to sleep.  i like that i can shut the cover on the mbp, flip it open, and surf the web and not seemingly have to sit and wait for the wireless connect to re-establish.
> 
> if i hook it up to an external monitor (whether a television, projector, or 2nd monitor), i can yank the connection and get back to work.  theres no Fn + F7... no forcing a switch of the display... no restoring of the original resolution.... it just does what you want


 

 WTH!  Your Dell actually works and hasn't disintegrated?  That's crazy talk.  I've been fortunate to be able to pick and choose components to build my PCs and only use Thinkpads that no Macbook could ever hold a candle to in terms of build and durability.  However, if I was like the aforementioned 95% that goes into Best Buy thinking I need to choose from Dell, Acer or HP I think a move to Apple would probably be inevitable so it's quite understandable.  I still think that Apple quality, ease of use and intuitiveness is slightly exaggerated though.  If a person has never used a computer before I don't think OSX has any advantage over Windows 7 for intuitiveness.  The 95% comment had nothing to do w/ marketshare but w/ the needs and competence level of 95% of users.  Sorry if 95% of readers didn't understand his comment.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  As much as I dislike Apple, on many levels, I can't fault Apple for providing a service and product that many PC makers fail to.  I also can't help feeling everytime a person switches to Apple, the human species devolves a little bit.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Perhaps Apple is only 33% culpable for the degree of resentment I have toward them after all.


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





roger strummer said:


> I really like Mac OS X, but I have never bought those arguments. Every OS copies features from quite a lot of other's peoples systems, and there is no such thing like the best OS, for example Spaces Apple copied it from Linux, and Ubuntu copies a lot of ideas from Win/mac. It would be actually pretty dumb to try to invent the wheel every time, and no OS is the ultimate innovative that never copies, and in fact OS X has done its fair share of copying, which is not a bad thing. But Win7 is as much Apple's idea as OS X was Microsoft's idea, thinking about with a dualistic approach oversimplifies things IMO.


 
   
  QFT


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## ls20

my lenovo was my favorite portable computer until my mbp.  (the work-issued precision m60, m70, m2300, m90, m6400 i would never buy for personal use)
   
  ive built everything from a 386dx40 to 486dx4-100 to p200mmx to athlon 64 machines.  i just dont care for it anymore.  the computer is a means to an end -- information exchange.  it is an amalgamation of little things in osx that makes it better in this regard, in my opinion.  if you dont care about that aspect, more power to you.  i just dont understand the resentment, contempt, and superiority complex over a personal choice in computing. 
   


anaxilus said:


> WTH!  Your Dell actually works and hasn't disintegrated?  That's crazy talk.  I've been fortunate to be able to pick and choose components to build my PCs and only use Thinkpads that no Macbook could ever hold a candle to in terms of build and durability.  However, if I was like the aforementioned 95% that goes into Best Buy thinking I need to choose from Dell, Acer or HP I think a move to Apple would probably be inevitable so it's quite understandable.  I still think that Apple quality, ease of use and intuitiveness is slightly exaggerated though.  If a person has never used a computer before I don't think OSX has any advantage over Windows 7 for intuitiveness.  The 95% comment had nothing to do w/ marketshare but w/ the needs and competence level of 95% of users.  Sorry if 95% of readers didn't understand his comment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





ls20 said:


> i just dont understand the resentment, contempt, and superiority complex over a personal choice in computing.


 

 Well, speaking for myself my beef is largely with Apple as a company, their philosophy and the superiority complex they exude.  The attitude and arrogance from the top flows down like a torrential waterfall collecting in a pool of over exuberant fan boys.  My comment on devolution stems from a time of shade tree mechanics, home improvers, hand built PCs and DIYers.  It's more to do w/ the direction of our society and the people blithely along for the ride all out for the quick and easy.  No more satisfaction of taking the harder, road less travelled and learning along the way.  I'll digress as to not get caught up in a lengthy social commentary.  Do what ya like.  Makes no difference to anyone else but you.  Doesn't mean I have to like it or that you have to care.


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## Currawong

Quote: 





roger strummer said:


> I really like Mac OS X, but I have never bought those arguments. Every OS copies features from quite a lot of other's peoples systems, and there is no such thing like the best OS, for example Spaces Apple copied it from Linux, and Ubuntu copies a lot of ideas from Win/mac. It would be actually pretty dumb to try to invent the wheel every time, and no OS is the ultimate innovative that never copies, and in fact OS X has done its fair share of copying, which is not a bad thing. But Win7 is as much Apple's idea as OS X was Microsoft's idea, thinking about with a dualistic approach oversimplifies things IMO.


 

 A small correction: What Apple calls "Spaces" comes from XWindows, which is a windowing system that sat atop various UNIX derivatives and is, more or less, the basis for the windowing interface for various operating systems, such as those based on the Linux kernel, the various BSDs, Solaris and others.  Linux (the kernel, as there is no "Linux OS") was designed so that people could have a UNIX derivative without having to deal with extortionate licenses and proprietary code.  Steve Jobs' NeXT had its own windowing system with work-spaces as well.


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## krmathis

Can't wait for Mac OS X 10.7 Lion...


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## ozz

Quote: 





krmathis said:


> Can't wait for Mac OS X 10.7 Lion...


 

 I have a feeling more than the two of us are anxiously waiting to see what this will bring to the table kinda hope they offer a suite of the new iLife,iWork and OS 10.7.


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## Roger Strummer

Quote: 





currawong said:


> A small correction: What Apple calls "Spaces" comes from XWindows, which is a windowing system that sat atop various UNIX derivatives and is, more or less, the basis for the windowing interface for various operating systems, such as those based on the Linux kernel, the various BSDs, Solaris and others.  Linux (the kernel, as there is no "Linux OS") was designed so that people could have a UNIX derivative without having to deal with extortionate licenses and proprietary code.  Steve Jobs' NeXT had its own windowing system with work-spaces as well.


 

  
  Absolutely correct, I was in ranting mode and sleepy so I went with the first example in my head and didn't go into detail 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But I still stand by my point, every OS influences the others, which is not a bad thing but actually what permits the progress we've seen.


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## Palpatine

I always though Microsoft was the epitome of arrogance.

  
  Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Well, speaking for myself my beef is largely with Apple as a company, their philosophy and the superiority complex they exude.  The attitude and arrogance from the top flows down like a torrential waterfall collecting in a pool of over exuberant fan boys.  My comment on devolution stems from a time of shade tree mechanics, home improvers, hand built PCs and DIYers.  It's more to do w/ the direction of our society and the people blithely along for the ride all out for the quick and easy.  No more satisfaction of taking the harder, road less travelled and learning along the way.  I'll digress as to not get caught up in a lengthy social commentary.  Do what ya like.  Makes no difference to anyone else but you.  Doesn't mean I have to like it or that you have to care.


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





palpatine said:


> I always though Microsoft was the epitome of arrogance.


 
   
  I used to also.  My how times change.  At least I wasn't limited to what I could or couldn't do.  Plus I could swap my CPU and GPU since they weren't soldered on.  I don't like buying things from companies that think they have to protect me from myself.


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## woof37

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> Well, speaking for myself my beef is largely with Apple as a company, their philosophy and the superiority complex they exude.  The attitude and arrogance from the top flows down like a torrential waterfall collecting in a pool of over exuberant fan boys.


 

 This "superiority complex they exude" is a creation of someone's imagination, not fact.  Apple, post-SJ's return, has made a point of creating cool products that just work, and designed them in a way that the young & hip clamor to own them.  I've seen/heard/witnessed 100x more fanboy uber-ism from Windows guys than I ever have from Apple folks, and while there are smug condescending jerks in every sector of the tech industry, the most polite and helpful service guys I've ever come across have been at Apple stores.  I'm an IT professional and have worked on Windows OSes for nearly as long as Windows has existed, so take that for what it's worth.


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## woof37

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> I used to also.  My how times change.  At least I wasn't limited to what I could or couldn't do.  Plus I could swap my CPU and GPU since they weren't soldered on.  I don't like buying things from companies that think they have to protect me from myself.


 
   
  I don't mean to pick on your posts Anaxilus; you just mentioned something that contributes to what (I think) defines the Apple-bashers well.  Apple computers and the Apple OS largely excludes the system builders and power-tweakers from doing their thing.  You, and me since I fit in that category, represent a very small portion of the computer-buying public.  Apples and the Mac OS aren't meant for us...they're meant for the turn-it-on-and-it-works crowd.  All hardware 100% compatible and driver issues pretty much non-existent.  No AV needed.  No real system maintenance needed, unless you consider clicking the "Update" button when prompted as system maintenance.  No browser issues and page crashes and won't-loads like those of us forced to use IE are accustomed to.  No wading through tons of apps that may or may not work properly or crash their systems, and the application availability issues are going to take a severe turn towards the better with the Mac App Store coming online.  For people who don't want to spend their time reading tech blogs and would rather spend it using the computer as a tool, not their hobby, Apples are great things.


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





woof37 said:


> This "superiority complex they exude" is a creation of someone's imagination, not fact.  Apple, post-SJ's return, has made a point of creating cool products that just work, and designed them in a way that the young & hip clamor to own them.  I've seen/heard/witnessed 100x more fanboy uber-ism from Windows guys than I ever have from Apple folks, and while there are smug condescending jerks in every sector of the tech industry, the most polite and helpful service guys I've ever come across have been at Apple stores.  I'm an IT professional and have worked on Windows OSes for nearly as long as Windows has existed, so take that for what it's worth.


 

 Yeah, telling people they are 'holding it wrong' was imaginary.  Agree though, Apple is consistently rated 'A' for Customer Service which it should since their reliability usually hovers around 'C'.  Although not honoring the warranty on electronics owned by smokers I guess is forgiven somehow.  Don't really care since I don't smoke.  I think it is emblematic of the Apple 'Weltenschung' and 'imagined' attitude.  With PCs I agree than Windows fanboyism is more prevalent but so is their market penetration.  Makes sense.  It's the portable segment I find the rabid Apple nutz w/ the exception of the random Mac user that thinks they are better because a Mac will never get a virus.


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## Anaxilus

Quote: 





woof37 said:


> I don't mean to pick on your posts Anaxilus; you just mentioned something that contributes to what (I think) defines the Apple-bashers well.  Apple computers and the Apple OS largely excludes the system builders and power-tweakers from doing their thing.  You, and me since I fit in that category, represent a very small portion of the computer-buying public.  Apples and the Mac OS aren't meant for us...they're meant for the turn-it-on-and-it-works crowd.  All hardware 100% compatible and driver issues pretty much non-existent.  No AV needed.  No real system maintenance needed, unless you consider clicking the "Update" button when prompted as system maintenance.  No browser issues and page crashes and won't-loads like those of us forced to use IE are accustomed to.  No wading through tons of apps that may or may not work properly or crash their systems, and the application availability issues are going to take a severe turn towards the better with the Mac App Store coming online.  For people who don't want to spend their time reading tech blogs and would rather spend it using the computer as a tool, not their hobby, Apples are great things.


 

 No problem, go ahead!  I completely agree with that!  Personally myself I have had Snow leopard crash, out of the box!  Friends did a few times on the older OS.  His macbook fell apart and stopped working.  The silver keys wear out and turn copper colored.  You are right though, a Mac for a non power user is usually a far better option than a standard Dell, HP or heaven forbid, Sony Vaio.  No argument from me.  I just don't like the bulletproof perfection mythology surrounding Apple, it's false.  I still feel Windows 7 is a more intuitive UI and can't standard that monstrosity of a toolbar on Macs though.  Maybe I'd feel different if I only had 5 applications on it.  I also studied a bit of programming on Macs at university since that's all they used at the time.


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## ozz

A friend pointed out something to me a long time ago that if you wanted to use your computer for a particular job then move on get a mac if you wanted to do that job and some tweaking get a pc if you really enjoy tweaking
  every aspect get one of the many distros of Linux. He owns and uses all three something if i had the time and money would probably enjoy since i seem to be a little short of both I choose the Mac.


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## Roger Strummer

Quote: 





ozz said:


> A friend pointed out something to me a long time ago that if you wanted to use your computer for a particular job then move on get a mac if you wanted to do that job and some tweaking get a pc if you really enjoy tweaking
> every aspect get one of the many distros of Linux. He owns and uses all three something if i had the time and money would probably enjoy since i seem to be a little short of both I choose the Mac.


 

 I constantly work with all three OS'es, and he does have a point. It is also a matter of priorities and the particular jobs you want to do. For example there are sometimes that, for a variety of reasons, a job or objective can be accomplished more effectively or more nicely in one OS (for example, servers in Linux or gaming and office in Windows or safe web surfing in a Mac), so just as with headphones it is a good idea to have your priorities clear and get educated into getting the best experience in the OS you choose.


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## dirkpitt45

Safe Web browsing? Since when is web browsing hazardous.... People get virus's from clicking and downloading stuff, then they refuse to admit they did it because it's embarrassing. I know there are extreme cases where you can get something bad from just visiting a site, but depending on the site you probably deserve it. Windows is full of virus's because the majority of windows users are people who are blissfully unaware and ridiculously easy to phish. Not saying people who use mac's are any smarter, it's a matter of probabilities. Far more people use pc's, so you've got a greater chance of success(if you're the scammer) to set up shop in windows.
   
  I bet there's just as many security holes in snow leopard, just no one notices and apple keeps extra quiet about them.


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## Roger Strummer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dirkpitt45* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Safe Web browsing? Since when is web browsing hazardous.... People get virus's from clicking and downloading stuff, then they refuse to admit they did it because it's embarrassing. I know there are extreme cases where you can get something bad from just visiting a site, but depending on the site you probably deserve it. Windows is full of virus's because the majority of windows users are people who are blissfully unaware and ridiculously easy to phish. Not saying people who use mac's are any smarter, it's a matter of probabilities. Far more people use pc's, so you've got a greater chance of success(if you're the scammer) to set up shop in windows.
> 
> I bet there's just as many security holes in snow leopard, just no one notices and apple keeps extra quiet about them.


 
   
   
  Actually, it probably is easier to hack Snow Leopard (starting by its address space layout randomization state right now) than either Win or Linux. Yet this is less important given that in the wild you don't find the threats that you find for windows, and it is more user accessible than Linux overall, at least thinking for the most computer illiterate persons (say the average grandmom or something), which was what was on my mind when writing that. And remember that those computer illiterate people are very likely to click whatever trash is presented to them which can lead to hazards for their computers, so it's not like they deserve it, they are just naive and the computers should be fool-proof, at least IMO.


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## ls20

Quote: 





anaxilus said:


> I still feel Windows 7 is a more intuitive UI and can't standard that monstrosity of a toolbar on Macs though.  Maybe I'd feel different if I only had 5 applications on it.  I also studied a bit of programming on Macs at university since that's all they used at the time.


 

  
  you didnt take the 5 seconds to look in system preferences to change the size of the toolbar?  or notice that it has dynamic local-zoom over the cursor?
   









   
  the apparent difference between the 2 OS is 1 has a fan base with a sad inferiority complex to go out of its way in bashing the other.
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/518074/i-really-don-t-care-about-apple-fi


----------



## Anaxilus

Quote: 





ls20 said:


> you didnt take the 5 seconds to look in system preferences to change the size of the toolbar?  or notice that it has dynamic local-zoom over the cursor?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry you misinterpreted the issue was size and that I'm incapable of using system preferences.   Not that the OS is worth my time to since it isn't.  I simply think its a grotesque design suited for 10 year olds and below.  It's a sad attempt to be cute that just gets annoying.  Nice try though.  I'll take my quick launch tab thanks.  I hope your inferiority complex is still intact and thanks for re-injecting vitriol into the thread after everyone said each is a tool w/ a specific use and user.  Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black.


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## grawk

It's a shame this discussion has become a hamster wheel.  Take it to a computer forum.


----------

