# Project Ember Review



## RAZRr1275

Hey all,
  
 This is going to be a review of the Project Ember. I'll start with a general product introduction and then the review itself. The photography takes a variations on a theme approach with versions of an image edited in different fashions. I hope you like it as well as the review.
  
 
   
  
 Now for a product introduction. The idea of the amp, designed by Jeremy and Frans from Garage1217 is not to compete with anything, but to explore what's possible and that is exactly what they did.  The amplifier can use most breeds of 6 volt and 12 volt tubes, features gain switches, and output resistance jumpers all of which have a substantial effect on sound. The amp is designed to have "split personalities" as Jeremy likes to say and she does with the ability to sound like a warm and "tubey" sounding amplifier with warmer sounding tubes such as the Telefunken and high output resistance settings and an equal ability to sound almost like a solid state amplifier with a colder tube and low output resistance settings and everything in between.  It's predecessor, the Project Sunrise II has been compared by reviewers to the Schiit Lyr and the Ember is a notable improvement over the Sunrise II in that it has more power (enough to power the AKG K1000 and Hifiman HE-6 due to its max of 1.8 watts into 64 ohms), more detail, more customization options, and automatic biasing and voltage selection. In fact, due to the excellent distribution of power through all impedance ranges, the Ember can power 600 ohm headphones (380 mw) and extremely low impedance headphones with equal ease.
  
 
   
  
 As far as how she sounds, it's not as much of a question of what she sounds like, it's what she can sound like. Imagine a clean signal coming from your dac. The amplifier provides multiple filters so to speak to the sound - the first being the gain level (I'd advise using low),  the second being the tube, and the third being the output resistance. I'll talk about how the tubes alter the sound first. The circuitry of the amplifier is designed so that the opamp stage produces the smallest amount of distortion so that the only thing that distorts the sound is the tube. The effect of this is that tube rolling makes worlds of difference as far as how the amp sounds (I have a fair amount of them to say the least) . To give a brief description, here are some of the possibilities. With a Sylvania Baldwin 12au7 in, the amp sounds fairly exact and precise -- almost like my o2 except for a bit of roundness to the bass (which stays very snappy) and the smallest amount of lushness to the mids. The presentation is fairly neutral with a moderate sized soundstage. Put a Phillips 5814 in however, and it's an entirely different story - the soundstage becomes wider, the mids develop a  more lush sound while also being very airy, a slight treble roll off comes and the  bass develops a more round quality. Then try an RCA 12AU7. The first thing you're hit with are mids as they are very forward and vocals are the highlight of the presentation with a sound that's somewhat thick but extraordinarily fast. The sound is very clean, with somewhat bright treble and a slight bass roll off. Then try an Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 and you're greeted with a wonderfully natural albeit a bit dark presentation with excellent soundstage and imagine. The possibilities are absolutely endless as tubes make a world of difference.
  
 
   
  
 Tubes, however, are only one option that you have to adjust sound. The output resistance settings also have a large effect as the second layer of the filter over the tube. Keep in mind that the descriptions that follow are based on change to the tube's sound signature - tube rolling will still make a huge difference no matter the output resistance setting. Want a more airy sound with a more round bass presence that is a bit more stereotypical tubey? The high output resistance setting is for you. Want something that's closer to the solid state degree of precision without the airy lushness? The low setting would work best. Want something in between? There's a setting for that too. I tend to use the middle setting for most of my headphones.
  
 
   
  
 As far as synergy issues go, I'd recommend pairing the Ember with as transparent of a dac as possible so that the tube creates the only audible distortion in the chain as tube rolling makes more of a difference that way. For headphone synergy, pretty much anything works due to the wide array of sounds that the amplifier can produce. There is most certainly a tube and output resistance setting that will make any headphone sing. For example, my Grados prefer something warmer like a Phillips or Mullard tube. The AKG headphones that I have are good with pretty much anything because as I touched on in the K702 review, they pair well with cleaner amplifiers and tubes. With my Fostex and Denon headphones,  I generally prefer something mid forward like the RCA or a Bugle Boy because in the case of the Fostex, the mids are its best feature and I like to showcase them and in the case of the Denons, I find the mids slightly recessed so a mid forward tube evens things out.
  
 For the price of $350, I could not recommend this amplifier more due to its flexibility, warranty, quality and overall sound quality.
  
 And for a bonus pic that breaks the theme
  
 
   
  
 Thanks for reading and happy listening! Please post any questions/impressions that you have and suggestions for the review/photography etc. If you'd like to see more of my reviews and content you can find it on my blog here http://musicandlistening.wordpress.com/


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## techboy

How does this compare to Lyr, Little Dot MK IV SE and Lehmann BCL?


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## RAZRr1275

I haven't heard any of those so I can't really comment from experience. I know that when the Sunrise II was compared to the lyr the primary difference was that the Sunrise was a bit bassier and the Lyr was a tad more stoundstagey. As far as the other two, I'd suggest reading in the threads to get impressions of them and then asking any questions that you have specific to the Ember and I can help you out there.


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## techboy

Which amps have you compared ember to?


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## RAZRr1275

Little Dot I+, O2, Project Sunrise II, FIIO E9, Peachtree Nova


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## techboy

How does it compare to o2 and sunrise ii? Is it a huge step up from both? Does it match o2 in speed and transparency?


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## RAZRr1275

As far as the O2, it's not a good comparison. They're just two entirely different beasts. Can it be fast? Yes. Can it be pretty transparent? Yes. Is it always? Depends on what tube you have in and what output resistance settings you have. It doesn't really have its own sound signature per se since tube rolling etc plays such a last factor so there isn't really a way to do an adequate comparison. As far as vs the sunrise, it's more detailed and tighter with a bit better imaging and then there's the autobias and auto voltage selection.


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## cheaphifi

Quote: 





techboy said:


> How does it compare to o2 and sunrise ii? Is it a huge step up from both? Does it match o2 in speed and transparency?


 
   
  If you want transparency with the Ember you by-pass the input capacitors (jumper settings) and put a fast and lean tube like ECC82 Siemens or Telefunken, you'll have details and transparency but imo you should have a great source, the Projects Amp from garage1217 Benefits a lot from great DAC, they're able to retranscribe effortlessly the slightest details and the entire frequency range from the source, even a Project Starlight paired with a mid-range DAC (Audio-Gd NFB-3, Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 100, Schiit Bifrost, etc..) can compete with more expensive combos !


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## techboy

With a ECC82 Seimens will an Ember be as fast and transparent as Asgard 2 or at least as fast and transparent as O2?


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## techboy

Quote: 





cheaphifi said:


> If you want transparency with the Ember you by-pass the input capacitors (jumper settings) and put a fast and lean tube like ECC82 Siemens or Telefunken, you'll have details and transparency but imo you should have a great source, the Projects Amp from garage1217 Benefits a lot from great DAC, they're able to retranscribe effortlessly the slightest details and the entire frequency range from the source, even a Project Starlight paired with a mid-range DAC (Audio-Gd NFB-3, Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 100, Schiit Bifrost, etc..) can compete with more expensive combos !


 
  And what do you mean by by-pass input capacitors? What does that mean and how do you do it?


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## cheaphifi

Quote: 





techboy said:


> And what do you mean by by-pass input capacitors? What does that mean and how do you do it?


 
   
  Bypassing input capacitors from the signal path reduce a little the smoothness in the sound but extend sligthly the frequency range of the signal (can be very helpfull with some headphones), on the Ember you just have to unscrew the 4 hand-screw, remove the cover and move 2 jumpers to by-pass the Caps, you can also change gain by moving 2 others jumpers.
   
  You can download the manuals here, all is explained in details : http://www.garage1217.com/graphic_design_009.htm


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## proid

Quote: 





techboy said:


> With a ECC82 Seimens will an Ember be as fast and transparent as Asgard 2 or at least as fast and transparent as O2?


 
  I think the answer is no. Why do you want fast and transparent sound from a tube amp? Then just pick the O2 instead for half price and you will even save a lot more of money for tubes rolling.


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## cheaphifi

Quote: 





proid said:


> I think the answer is no. Why do you want fast and transparent sound from a tube amp? Then just pick the O2 instead for half price and you will even save a lot more of money for tubes rolling.


 
   
  It's not really the same concept O2 is like a "wire with gain" very neutral, you listen that you fed into the amp, the g1217 amps have the ability to tailor your sound according your tastes (with tube rolling), i'm agree that SS Amp are more transparent (or said more transparent some SS Amp can have a veiled or very warm/cold sound) but is the transparence help to enjoy your music?


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## techboy

By transparency I mean a clean sound which is very clear and super crisp. I don't necessarily mean dot neutral.


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## techboy

It doesn't matter whether you have heard all the below amps or not, even if you have just read sufficiently as to how they compare, perhaps you could share that with me.

1. How does Ember/Sunrise II compare with the typical SS amp in the $200-400 range like Matrix M Stage, Lovely Cube Premium, Asgard 1/2, Graham Slee Novo, Lehmann Rhinelander etc. I only mean a comparison in terms of transparency, clearness/cleaness and speed/attack. Not in other respects  Any approx idea?

2. How does Ember/Sunrise II compare with other tube/hybrid amps in the $300-500 range like Lyr, Little Dot MK IV SE, Bottlehead Crack, Torpedo etc? Any approx idea?

3. How does Ember compare with Sunrise II? Have you heard both?

4. Does Ember have any disadvantages oweing to its non-class A nature?

5. Which tubes would you recommend for the following:
Transparent, clear and very fast/quick attack/prat
with
forward or slightly forward mids or very forward mids
with 
thumping bass, even if quantity of bass is neutral, but thumping punchy bass, too much qty not needed

6. How does Sunrise II/Ember compare with lower versions like Bravo Ocean and Indeed G3? Have you heard all of these?

Thanks a lot


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## proid

Quote: 





techboy said:


> By transparency I mean a clean sound which is very clear and super crisp. I don't necessarily mean dot neutral.


 
   
  Transparency you mentioned is exactly what a solid state amp should sound like. When i rolled the Gold Lion 12AU7 into my Sunrise II, it sound a lot like a solid state amp: clean and clear but i much prefer the warmness and smooth sound from the 6n23p-ev, that's the reason why people love tube amps. But in both case, O2 is more clear and crips than the sunrise and the soundstage is much better.


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## techboy

But I need pre out


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## smitty1110

Check out this thread for some information about different tubes. This thread has a lot of discussion about the amp, including a lot of detailed reviews of its performance and what tubes the users were using. One thing to consider is this post by the designer where he discusses the issue of harmonic distorion casued by amps in general.


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## RAZRr1275

@ techboy as far as tubes that would fit what you want I'd look into an RCA Cleartop 12AU7
   
  also just generally for everyone
   
if you have any questions or want me to try anything out just let me know and I'll try to do a mini-blog entry on the specific topic. Just so that you can request something that I can do, I'll list my headphone and tube inventory. 

First I'm using the ODAC as a DAC

Headphones that I have are the Grado SR80I with L Cush, AKG K240 Sextett, AKG K702, Denon D2000, a modded set of Fostex T50RP (to my own configuration which I'll make a post about at some point in the near future) and Sennheiser HD280 Pro

Here's the fun bit. My tube inventory is

Electro Harmonix 6922 and 6N1P
Phillips 5814A
Tung Sol 5814WA and 12AU7
RCA 6CG7, 12BH7, 12AU7 Cleartop
GE 6GU7, 12AU7 and 12AV7 Cleartop
Sylvania 6CG7
Voshkod 6N1P-EV
Telefunken 12AU7
Siemens 12AU7
Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8
Tesla 6922
Brimar 12AU7
Mullard 12AU7
CBS/Hytron 12AU7
Sylvania/Baldwin 12AU7


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## TIMITS

Thanks for offering to answer questions and I have one about whether or not the Project Ember will play nicely with Final Audio Design earphones.  They are only 16 ohms but I notice that there are a number of output resistance jumper settings and tube choices that might work for these?  Because this is such a powerful amp would there be enough travel in the volume pot to make adjustments without channel imbalance or risking hearing damage?


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## smitty1110

To answer your question about channel imbalance and the volume pot, here's a post from another site from the guy who builds the amps:



> All of our factory built amplifiers receive what we call A grade pots. I literally hand test them in batches of 100qty. Only excellent potentiometers make cut, the rest go to ebay, used for projects and so forth. In fact, only about 1/3 of all tested make this cut. All A grades match excellent down low. There is a threshold however generally between the lowest volume and just a few degrees of turn where even an A grade may have a slight imbalance. That only makes up about maybe 3-5% of the volpots actual range. Keep the amplifier in the low input gain default setting and I highly doubt you will ever want to listen in this range as it is close to zero.
> 
> jhelms, DIY Audio Heaven Forum Post




The TL;DR is that the post are hand-selected for quality, but there is a chance that a very small portion of the pot's range will experience channel imbalance.

For your other question, the amp is officially acknowledged on the Garage1217 site to work with 16 ohm headphones, but I think that you will need to put the jumpers on their highest output resistance setting to be safe. You could always send an email to Jeremy to get his opinion - admin@garage1217.com


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## TIMITS

Thanks Smitty for the suggestion so I emailed Jeremy and received a quick and helpful response.  I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't mind me posting some of it here.
   
_"The Final audio's will be a bit tricky because of the very high sensitivity and impedance of 16 ohm. Ember easily handle the load, in fact will probably not even notice they are connected to the her, but with phones so efficient and being at the threshold of our impedance rating, you are more likely to hear background noise (she is a tube after all) *The good news is you can adjust most of this out*. Set the output impedance to high / 120ohm. Leave input gain on low and I would not recommend using any high gain tubes like 12ax7's / 5751's and I feel you should be fine."_
   
  I'm clueless with tubes so what would be a good choice for a low gain tube?


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## RAZRr1275

A 12AU7 should suit you well


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## TIMITS

Excellent.  Just submitted my order on eBay.  Thanks for the helpful review.


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## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





timits said:


> Excellent.  Just submitted my order on eBay.  Thanks for the helpful review.


 
  No problem. It'll sound great with your Thunderpants and if you set the gain to high and bypass the input caps, It'll make those Grado's of yours entirely non fatiguing.


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## techboy

Waiting for a reply to my questions


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## Nowhere

anyone know how this compares to the bottlehead crack (with/without speedball)? for sennheiser hd's specifically. (oh and darkvoice 336se).


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## techboy

I would like to know this as well.


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## proid

Quote: 





nowhere said:


> anyone know how this compares to the bottlehead crack (with/without speedball)? for sennheiser hd's specifically. (oh and darkvoice 336se).


 
  Sure Crack will sound better.


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## techboy

With low impedance headphones ember should be much better, especially for orthos like he6


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## cheaphifi

Quote: 





nowhere said:


> anyone know how this compares to the bottlehead crack (with/without speedball)? for sennheiser hd's specifically. (oh and darkvoice 336se).


 
  I read some comments about crack + Speedball, some prefer the smoother sound of the crack without speedball upgrade, some prefer sound with speedball upgrade, imo there are numerous factor which can change the sound (tubes used, other upgrades on the crack) so it's difficult to find a definitive statement about it.


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## techboy

I want to confirm one thing:

1. Bravo ocean helps my Aktimate Micro in several ways but harms in several ways.

2. Bravo Ocean makes the mids muddy and difficult to articulate. Will the Ember have clear and clear mids which are easy to decipher?

3. Bravo Ocean isn't as clean and clear as the speakers alone. Will Ember be significantly cleaner and clearer than Bravo Ocean?

4. The bass impact is reduced with Bravo. Will Ember do this as well.

5. I am basically looking for a much cleaner and much clearer sound which is more transparent than Ocean and doesn't defeat the purpose of using a preamp for my speakers. Will Ember do that with Aktimate Micro?

6. In short, as far as transparency is concerned, and a clean sound, is the Ember a step up from Bravo Ocean?

Thanks in advance

Aakshey


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## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





techboy said:


> I want to confirm one thing:
> 
> 1. Bravo ocean helps my Aktimate Micro in several ways but harms in several ways.
> 
> ...


 
  Why are you pming me and also posting in multiple threads on multiple forums with the same questions?
   
  I can't answer it as I heard a modded v2. Not an ocean.


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## techboy

OceAN and v2 are similar. How does it compare to a modded v2?


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## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





techboy said:


> OceAN and v2 are similar. How does it compare to a modded v2?


 
  I answered that in the other thread. It's far better


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## rmouser

Chiming in here, gents.
   
  I have a Sunrise 2 and Starlight. Jeremy sent me the prototype Ember, serial 0000, with a silver PCB to audition to buy.
   
  I just got my first pair of Beyers and went with the DT880 Premium 600 ohm after a lot of research. These were the first ones I heard through the Ember.
   
  AUDITION OVER!!! I sent the $$$ the next morning. It was quite a sensation hearing two new sounds at the same time. After hearing three "Projects" the Ember is the king.
   
  I've run 600 ohm Sextetts, 56 ohm K702, the 880s and several Grados. And that includes some serious EQ at the bottom end to see what it can do. It can do anything!


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## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





rmouser said:


> Chiming in here, gents.
> 
> I have a Sunrise 2 and Starlight. Jeremy sent me the prototype Ember, serial 0000, with a silver PCB to audition to buy.
> 
> ...


 
  Be sure to try the high resistance setting and bypassed input caps with the Sextetts and Grados. The sound is amazing.


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## rmouser

Did that and your right!


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## techboy

Has anybody compared Ember to Beta22 or EHHA Rev A?


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## proid

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Has anybody compared Ember to Beta22 or EHHA Rev A?


 
  The Ember is superior to both Beta22 and EHHA


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## techboy

Any sources to back this up? Beta22 competes with the best SS amps south of $2000 and EHHA Rev A is again competes well north of the $1000 range. Both of these are at least two steps above Bottlehead Crack.

Beta22 competes with Burson Solonist, Lehmann BCL, Grace, etc. and Ehha compares favorably to $1000 Woo audio amps and is better than most Little Dot amps.


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## cheaphifi

Quote: 





proid said:


> The Ember is superior to both Beta22 and EHHA


 

 @*techboy* : I think proid is saying that you whish to hear...
   
  what means superior between two amplifiers ? it's a big question


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## techboy

I just ordered ember today. But I just want to know how it compares to those. Out of curiosity. Just like a lehmann is superior to a schiit asgard 2 is superior to an o2.


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## rmouser

Congrats on the order--you won't be disappointed.
   
  By the way, the Ember is too new to see many comparisons yet. You best best shot would be to GOOGLE    "Ember vs Lehman" and the like.
   
  Cheers!


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## proid

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Any sources to back this up? Beta22 competes with the best SS amps south of $2000 and EHHA Rev A is again competes well north of the $1000 range. Both of these are at least two steps above Bottlehead Crack.
> 
> Beta22 competes with Burson Solonist, Lehmann BCL, Grace, etc. and Ehha compares favorably to $1000 Woo audio amps and is better than most Little Dot amps.


 
  You already know that so why do you keep asking silly questions again and again in every thread related and pm anyone who has the ember? That's very annoying.


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## techboy

Jeremy has asked me to choose between 6N1P and RCA Clear Top 12AU7.
   
  Can you explain to me the difference in sound characteristics and tonal differences between the two tubes on offer?
   
  In terms of:
   
  Mids
  Highs
  Lows
  Transparency and clearness
  Crispness
  Lushness
  Forward or neutral etc?


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## cheaphifi

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Jeremy has asked me to choose between 6N1P and RCA Clear Top 12AU7.
> 
> Can you explain to me the difference in sound characteristics and tonal differences between the two tubes on offer?
> 
> ...


 
   
  6N1P is more on the "fun-side" : big bass impact, good dynamic, a bit warm, good extension in the highs but not great precision.
  RCA Cleartop is more lean and transparent on all frequencies, crispy highs, good precision and clearness, great mids, bass is not as impactfull as on the 6N1P but theay have a best amount of details.
   
  You should ask for a RCA Cleartop, i think it will fit your taste better.


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## techboy

Which is more neutral? Which has clearer mids?


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## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





techboy said:


> Which is more neutral? Which has clearer mids?


 
  Read this http://musicandlistening.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/another-post-on-synergy-fostex-t50rp-project-ember-and-voshkod-6n1p/
   
  As far as neutral, that doesn't exist in the tube world for the most part so there really isn't too much of a point in talking about it


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## ethan7000

Look what came in today


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## rmouser

Hello ethan7000,
   
  Ah, welcome to the world of Projects. I have a Sunrise 2, Starlight and Ember. If you really like rolling then you have the right amp!
   
  There is a separate thread for Starlight at     
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/657635/incredible-the-younger-sibling-of-project-sunrise-2-the-new-project-starlight/15


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## ethan7000

Thanks rmouser!


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## techboy

Can you recommend me tubes which meet all these requirements:

They can be from any family. Whether you sell them or not. I can find on ebay if you want. Family or make doesn't matter. Just recommend the best for my purpose.

Neutral or slightly bright treble, shouldn't be warm. I don't need warm. 
Extremely crisp, better than rca clear top
Super fast attack and prat, better than rca clear top
Super clean, super clear and super transparent, better than rca clear top
Forward mids or very forward mids or slightly forward mids
If possible, thumping bass as well. And if possible strong bass. Bass is secondary though.

For this purpose which family do you recommend? 6DJ8 or 6922 or something else? which make and model? approx ebay pricing?

Can you recommend me my top 5 choices?

Thank You


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## TIMITS

techboy,
   
  I noticed that you have posted this same question in the Sunrise /PS2 Tube Rolling Thread also. You might want to consider reading the forum's posting guidelines otherwise you might find that your account is suspended.  Here is the relevant section:
   
*Only make the same post in ONE thread.* Cross-posting is frowned upon and may be treated as spam which may result in your account being locked after your posts are deleted.  
   
  And here is the Posting Guidelines link: http://www.head-fi.org/a/posting-guidelines.


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## RAZRr1275

Okay so to get this back on track after techboy's questions, I've figured out that which resistance settings, input cap settings and gain settings I find most desirable don't only have to do with the headphones -- the tube is also a big factor. For example, I prefer the Telefunken on the high resistance setting and high gain because it creates an incredibly sweet sound without losing out on the refinement and detail that the tube possesses.


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## rmouser

As a bonus, Jeremy sent a GE 6DJ8 with the Ember prototype I bought.
   
  I generally prefer the sound of 12 volt tubes. They seem more "engaging" to me.
   
  In comparing the 6922 to the 6DJ8, the 6DJ8 has more "impact" to me. I use a lot of EQ, especially on the low end and it handles that with ease. On some songs, I hear more "background treble" like cymbals. This sells for $34.95 at Garage1217 and I feel that it is worth the $$.


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## TIMITS

I received a Project Ember today and have been having heaps of fun changing impedance settings, swapping out the original tube to an RCA 12AU7 clear top, bypassing the input caps and changing the LED colour to a nice restful blue.  For anyone interested this little amp can definitely accommodate sensitive IEMs (mine are 16 ohm) without any channel imbalance at lower listening settings.  You can change from Low to Medium to High impedance settings while the amp is powered up and listen to the change immediately.  The only thing to watch is that each time you select a lower impedance setting the volume increases.  I'm not exactly sure how to express the change in sound with caps bypassed but I like it. Slightly more "presence" or perhaps it is just a little bit clearer.  One thing that has become immediately obvious is that my cheap, 4 year old, no-name DAC is the weakest link and now sounds compressed and strident.  Anyway, I'm more than happy with how things sound at the moment and looking forward to purchasing some more tubes.


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## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





timits said:


> I received a Project Ember today and have been having heaps of fun changing impedance settings, swapping out the original tube to an RCA 12AU7 clear top, bypassing the input caps and changing the LED colour to a nice restful blue.  For anyone interested this little amp can definitely accommodate sensitive IEMs (mine are 16 ohm) without any channel imbalance at lower listening settings.  You can change from Low to Medium to High impedance settings while the amp is powered up and listen to the change immediately.  The only thing to watch is that each time you select a lower impedance setting the volume increases.  I'm not exactly sure how to express the change in sound with caps bypassed but I like it. Slightly more "presence" or perhaps it is just a little bit clearer.  One thing that has become immediately obvious is that my cheap, 4 year old, no-name DAC is the weakest link and now sounds compressed and strident.  Anyway, I'm more than happy with how things sound at the moment and looking forward to purchasing some more tubes.


 
  Try playing with gain settings too. At high you'll get a smoother, more resolving sound.


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## ninjapirate9901

Wait, the gain setting changes the overall sound as well?


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## RAZRr1275

Quote: 





ninjapirate9901 said:


> Wait, the gain setting changes the overall sound as well?


 
  Yup - I find high to be a bit smoother and more airy. Low is a bit more up front and full


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## rckyosho

Hey y'all,
   
  Got the kit version of ember about a month back and since been building and toying around with some mods(more for usability/transportability).
  Manage to integrate the ODAC in the chassis and have move the led pot to the front for easy access.
   
  Tubes I've got and tried so far are Electro-Harmonix 6922,6922 gold,12ax7,Shu Guang 12au7,RCA 12au7 cleartop and Voskhod 6n1p(the last 2 courtesy of jeremy).
  Currently using the Shu Guang 12au7(my favorite and might be permanent) tube as I find it to be the least hiss/noise prone for my AKG K701 and Maddog with high gain,
  low output impedance and with input caps bypass setting, also the scratching sound that you hear with other tubes when changing volume(when input caps are bypassed) 
  is not present with it. Very powerful amp indeed and overall I'm very happy with it and it really pairs well with my K701.
   

  The front with the LED trimmer pots easily accessible
   
   

   
  Back view with the ODAC underneath
   
   
   

  Top view
   
   

  Bottom View
   
   

  The ember with it's partner K701


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## techboy

How does shu guang compare to rca clear top in terms of transparency and crispness and clearness?

Thank You

Aakshey


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## rckyosho

Quote: 





techboy said:


> How does shu guang compare to rca clear top in terms of transparency and crispness and clearness?
> 
> Thank You
> 
> Aakshey


 
  here you go my answer


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## proid

Quote: 





rckyosho said:


> here you go my answer


 
  +1


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## ethan7000

rckyosho said:


> here you go my answer



Ha nice. Great job BTW, odac integration is cool and LED trimmers on the front - perfect! I would always be changing the color


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## Kal1989

Anyone care to compare it with the Little Dot I + ? OP mentioned he/she tested against it, but I haven't seen any comparisons. Also, would the 380mW into 600 Ohm be enough for some DT990 600?


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## smitty1110

I used a pair of dt900 600 ohms with the ember, and it worked great. It's plenty of power for your needs.


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## RAZRr1275

kal1989 said:


> Anyone care to compare it with the Little Dot I + ? OP mentioned he/she tested against it, but I haven't seen any comparisons. Also, would the 380mW into 600 Ohm be enough for some DT990 600?


 
 The main difference in sound sig is that the Little Dot is more airy while the Ember has a more full vivid sound. The Ember also has more impact and is more vivid with better dynamics and soundstage. Basically different sound signature + all around better. As for the power that's plenty for that impedance. I have a set of AKG K240 Sextetts (also 600 ohm) and it drives them just fine.


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## ninjapirate9901

razrr1275 said:


> The main difference in sound sig is that the Little Dot is more airy while the Ember has a more full vivid sound. The Ember also has more impact and is more vivid with better dynamics and soundstage. Basically different sound signature + all around better. As for the power that's plenty for that impedance. I have a set of AKG K240 Sextetts (also 600 ohm) and it drives them just fine.


 
 Do you think much of that difference would be down to differences between the tubes used in either amp?


----------



## RAZRr1275

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Do you think much of that difference would be down to differences between the tubes used in either amp?


 
 Nope - I had Mullard EF95, EF91, EF92s, 1940s Tung Sols, GE 6AK5s, Voshkod EF95s, etc so basically the top tubes used with the ld. I opamp rolled to the OPA 2134 or 2107 depending on what I was feeling as well


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## Kal1989

Thanks for the reply, this is on my shortlist of new amps. 
  
 Cheers


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## techboy

Hi

Will just take a minute, hope you decide to help 

Is ember's sound quality (not features/ not power) better than sunrise ii? No or slightly or audibly? More detailed, transparent, refined or not?

ESP with hd 650.

Thank You so much

Aakshey


----------



## RAZRr1275

techboy said:


> Hi
> 
> Will just take a minute, hope you decide to help
> 
> ...


 
 Here we go again with spamming me with pms and then digging up every single thread you can find and posting the same question in it. Stop. I am not going to respond.


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## proid

razrr1275 said:


> Here we go again with spamming me with pms and then digging up every single thread you can find and posting the same question in it. Stop. I am not going to respond.


 
 He pm me too, the most annoying person i have ever seen.


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## RAZRr1275

Yeah he's been doing this with me ever since I started my blog in the summer. I'm really sorry if anyone does genuinely have that question but with techboy I know for sure that right after I answer that he'll send me another series of pms with 5 more and I just don't have the time to deal with that.


----------



## techboy

I promise there will be no more PMs to you Razer, could you just post one single reply on this thread here and I promise that is the last


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## RAZRr1275

Just so that you're aware you're on my block list so I have no idea what you just posted. I do know that it's you though because there's no one else on my block list.


----------



## mullardpassion

Dude..Seriously how much more annoying can you be? Your silly comments here and on Headfonia make you a look like a total ******. Nobody cares what you have owned earlier. Comments like "This brand totally blew off another brand" or "I have a lot of experience with swan and audioengine" or even "360p rip movies!!?" What), are dumb. Owning a couple of speakers or amps doesn't make you an audiophile guru or whatever. You even comment on equipment that you do not own ***.
  
 So before inciting people to blindly buy speakers, etc you must understand that sound is subjective. Also stop p**sing people off with pms. You're embarassing enough on Headfonia. Instead of wasting your own money on buying equipment based solely on reviews..Go to meets, shops to listen and audition.
  
 PS: Your posts on adding an amp to a wireless RS170 headphone were epic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 http://www.head-fi.org/t/683298/do-i-need-an-amp
 WUT!?
  
 I am not trolling you, but please sensible enough to stop it


----------



## proid

mullardpassion said:


> Dude..Seriously how much more annoying can you be? Your silly comments here and on Headfonia make you a look like a total ******. Nobody cares what you have owned earlier. Comments like "This brand totally blew off another brand" or "I have a lot of experience with swan and audioengine" or even "360p rip movies!!?" What), are dumb. Owning a couple of speakers or amps doesn't make you an audiophile guru or whatever. You even comment on equipment that you do not own ***.
> 
> So before inciting people to blindly buy speakers, etc you must understand that sound is subjective. Also stop p**sing people off with pms. You're embarassing enough on Headfonia. Instead of wasting your own money on buying equipment based solely on reviews..Go to meets, shops to listen and audition.
> 
> ...


 

 That thread made my day


----------



## ninjapirate9901

Back on topic a bit, bar any unexpected circumstances I shall be attending the Headphone open day at HiFi Lounge (UK) this Saturday. I'm planning on bringing along my Ember (I'll probably stick the Telefunken's in there as I know them the best right now) and will be trying a range of fairly high end headphones (my first chance to listen to the HD 800 and TH 900 hopefully). Also if you are in the lower UK you should definitely head along.


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## RAZRr1275

Sounds great - let me know how it goes - i'm interested to see how the ember performs and your impressions of the flagships. I'm looking to buy one at some point relatively soon


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## ninjapirate9901

razrr1275 said:


> Sounds great - let me know how it goes - i'm interested to see how the ember performs and your impressions of the flagships. I'm looking to buy one at some point relatively soon


 
 Which one are you looking at?


----------



## RAZRr1275

I'm looking at the HE-500, LCD-2, HD800, T1 and HE-6. My plan of now is to use thecablecompany's rental service so that I can try some things out


----------



## ninjapirate9901

Well went to the HiFi Lounge Headphone day meet. Brought along my Ember tubes in tow...forgot the power supply...
  
 Sorry guys, let you down... I feel so stupid, and sad because I know I won't be owning the SR007's anytime soon...


----------



## rmouser

proid said:


> mullardpassion said:
> 
> 
> > Dude..Seriously how much more annoying can you be? Your silly comments here and on Headfonia make you a look like a total ******. Nobody cares what you have owned earlier. Comments like "This brand totally blew off another brand" or "I have a lot of experience with swan and audioengine" or even "360p rip movies!!?" What), are dumb. Owning a couple of speakers or amps doesn't make you an audiophile guru or whatever. You even comment on equipment that you do not own ***.
> ...


 
  
 Alas, now I am on his PM list....poop! I don't respond and he goes away. If only I could figure a reply that would blow his computer up. I'll say one thing...he's tenacious, but that is not always a good thing. Does he even understand half of the terms he is "using"?
  
 He is invading other forums and getting the same responses.


----------



## RAZRr1275

It sucks that he's doing it. Some people don't take the Ember seriously around here because of his absurd reviews and he's killing the willingness of anyone who owns the Ember to respond to any questions about it for fear of being spammed by him which only hurts the amount of information out about it more.


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## mukulymn

I am waiting for my ember.. Right nw wth uk customs.. Will be pairing it wth he500.. Lets c how it goes


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## mullardpassion

razrr1275 said:


> It sucks that he's doing it. Some people don't take the Ember seriously around here because of his absurd reviews and he's killing the willingness of anyone who owns the Ember to respond to any questions about it for fear of being spammed by him which only hurts the amount of information out about it more.


 

 He stopped on the Ember for now. Ember owners rejoice!! Unfortunately he's got a new toy:some Asus DAC/Amp...and he wrote, that these should be left to people with money like him 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 Anyways the Ember certainly deserves more love, even if I'm not fan of the design


----------



## connieflyer

Just purchased a Project Ember tuesday, and am eager to get started with it.  I did ALOT of research on tube amps in particular, and the ember seems to fit the bill.  I like the support that is offered the fact that is US based is a plus, for obvious reasons, least of which is being able to have it repaired with out international shipping and delays.  The design is different and pleasing, which was the reason it pushed me over the edge from the crack amp.  That one just  is not appealing to me at all.  Personal choice, and I am having it built in house, so that should eliminate errors that could delay the enjoyment of the amp itself.


----------



## iancraig10

razrr1275 said:


> It sucks that he's doing it. Some people don't take the Ember seriously around here because of his absurd reviews and he's killing the willingness of anyone who owns the Ember to respond to any questions about it for fear of being spammed by him which only hurts the amount of information out about it more.


 

 He has been the bain of DIY Audio Heaven and has been doing exactly the same nonsense there. In fact, threads got totally disrupted and destroyed because of him. He's a damned nuisance and I would be glad to see the back of him following him trying to be 'funny' with me. Trying to be nice didn't work and he continued until in the end he accused me of being a bully because as admin, I had had enough with complaints from other members about him.
  
 His reviews are hopeless meaningless twaddle that compares everything with everything and in the end means absolutely nothing. He was banned from Headfi I notice for a short while and was close to a permanent ban from DIYAH.but thankfully, he's leaving us alone nowadays. I'd rather he just disappeared from DIYAH but once more and he's gone.
  
 He has indeed done damage to potential sales of equipment based on his idiotic sweeping statements which is a little worrying in that it shows the power of the internet and how such people can gain power through it in spite of their ignorance. When he caused us grief on DIYAH, I even pm'd him saying so and that he needed to be a little more careful in what he said about equipment on an internet site.
  
 I am absolutely AMAZED that Frans was able to put up with his stupidity considering Frans designed it and is one of the other admins on the site along with myself and Javier. Frans took it on the chin and showed way more patience than I did I can tell you.
  
 The great thing about the Ember as one of the guys above said, is that you can obtain them in the USA so no International stuff going on for you. Jeremy will bend over backwards as far as customer satisfaction goes and I know that he's not exactly ripping people off with the cost of these amps.
  
 If you like the sound of a tube amp plus a massive amount of power offering enormous headroom for your headphones, easily swapped tubes with self-biasing, configurable output impedance and a sensitivity input switch, plus the fact that you can bypass input capacitors if you want .... what else is there?
  
 If you don't like an open frame (Actually I like it), then you can easily put it into an enclosure. It doesn't even get that hot.
  
 This amp is really good and I am surprised at the low key description etc on Headfi since it's a USA based amp, although designed by Frans in the Netherlands. He's also available for INSTANT feedback on any issue at DIYAH and he has the patience of a saint!!!! Perhaps as admin, I'm bad cop, he's good cop. 
  
 He is FULL of ideas and has even helped people to make the speakers go off with a simple mod to the design if they wish to use it as a pre amp. He's helped  to change the gain... all kinds of things. This is one amp that works really well, with great customer support from Jeremy and massive technical support from Frans on DIYAH.
  
 Plus some newer ideas just being invented for anyone to contribute to ..... a portable amp dedicated to the headphone that you use by including an enclosed filter that will get the headphone as close to neutral as possible!!! How about that for an idea? He's using DIYAH to ask people exactly what they'd like included on such an amp on the site.


----------



## connieflyer

I was considering a ticket to India to find that nuisance and tell him to his face to get a life.  The ember seems like a very good option and I would not have found it if not for the for sale amp section, saw one I think it was a sunrise.  Looked interesting, so checked out their website and saw the Project Ember and decided after much thought to get one.  I will admit, that that character was a pain, but I think he's gone at least for now.  AFTER I get my Ember than please, everyone go order one!  Keep up the good work.  Don


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## iancraig10

He just full of words, Don. Often gibberish!! 
  
 As far as the amp is concerned, if you need or want support with any issue, Frans is over on DIYAH and I guarantee he will answer and fix any query since he's the guy that designed it. It's really worth the trouble to set the output impedance up to suit your headphone as well as find a tube that suits your tastes and of course, the input level. It's very configurable which is exactly what he intended in the design. I had a proto Sunrise and then a Horizon and now a proto Ember. Loved them all, but my favourite is the Ember for sure.
  
 Frans is now working on a portable amp that will include a filter inside in order to get whatever headphone you choose to use to as flat as he can get it. He also makes these filters after measuring headphones' responses. He modified my T40 and also made me a filter that gets it very close to flat and extends its response way above the Mad Dog version which is not as extended at all without a filter. It has become my reference headphone. He also did a lot of work on the Superlux headphones which are really cheap and the HD681b in particular comes out sounding really good with a filter in line and his recommended mods.
  
 I'm looking forward to how this amp he's working on turns out since I'd love a dedicated amp for the T40/T50. He' s asking what people would like to see on DIYAH and then designing according to what he thinks may work well so it's a real peoples' amp and a really interesting idea - an amp dedicated to a headphone.


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## Asr

I'll have a review unit of this amp coming in relatively soon and am really looking forward to it. I hope it's as good as everyone says. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Serious question: I don't suppose anyone has a Schiit Lyr, Audeze LCD-2, or a MrSpeakers headphone that they'd be willing to let me borrow for the review? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (I'm a little short on comparative gear at the moment and out of spare funds to buy stuff after Black Friday damaged my wallet. I could offer a loan of something that I own in return as an incentive too.)


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## ninjapirate9901

Has anyone had a chance yet to compare the Ember (or other Garage1217 amps) to the Schiit Vali?


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## ethan7000

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Has anyone had a chance yet to compare the Ember (or other Garage1217 amps) to the Schiit Vali?



Yes there's a comparison in the Vali thread from a couple days ago.


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## money4me247

hey cld someone please explain to me the differences between the different Garage1217 projects (starlight vs sunrise 2 vs ember)? I read the full descriptions for each one but it all sounds like mumbo jumbo to mee lol. I need it explained in practical layman terms =S
  
 I got that project horizon is for high impedance headphones specifically with more power... but I am not sure what is upgraded jumping from starlight to sunrise 2 to ember.
  
 please helpa noobie


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## mukulymn

what headphones you are using right now?


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## RAZRr1275

money4me247 said:


> hey cld someone please explain to me the differences between the different Garage1217 projects (starlight vs sunrise 2 vs ember)? I read the full descriptions for each one but it all sounds like mumbo jumbo to mee lol. I need it explained in practical layman terms =S
> 
> I got that project horizon is for high impedance headphones specifically with more power... but I am not sure what is upgraded jumping from starlight to sunrise 2 to ember.
> 
> please helpa noobie


 
 Basically the ember has more power and more customizability as far as resistance and gain settings that affect sound


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## mukulymn

what cable/adapter can I use for the power supply that is supplied with Ember. I am in UK.


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## ninjapirate9901

mukulymn said:


> what cable/adapter can I use for the power supply that is supplied with Ember. I am in UK.


 
  
 All you need is a replacement cord or adapter for the psu. I just got a cheap US to UK adapter from Maplins (probably a lot cheaper on Amazon).


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## mukulymn

Thanks... I will visit maplin


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## Asr

The review-unit Project Ember got in a couple of days ago, and I have to say it's one of the coolest-looking DIY-type amps that I've ever seen. I didn't think I would like the open-frame-style chassis but it's not that bad, and the plexiglass top is just awesome.
  
 I'd post initial impressions but I recently got new headphones (Sennheiser HD598 and Shure SRH1540) and I'm adjusting to them as well. So I'll just post a pic for now. Since most of the pics I've seen have been annoyingly dark, I decided to make it annoyingly bright. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

(click for larger)


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## FlySweep

Yep.. I dig the open chassis design, too.. it's fun to be able to look at all the parts that went into this beautiful little amp.  It helps all the soldering work is exquisitely done, so it all looks very clean and professional (and they used top grade caps and things).  I've had the Ember for a month or two now.. it's simply terrific.  It sounded a bit harsh, ootb.. and for a good few weeks, actually.. but with use, it smoothed and and seems very transparent to the tube one rolls in.  It's a very powerful amp too.. I've thrown the HD600, HD650, LCD-X, and the HE-500 at it.. and it doesn't break a sweat.  Aside from being able to drive those phones to deafening levels, it's a refined amp that provides excellent depth an control.  I've got an LCD-2 coming this week, so I'm interested to see how it plays with the Ember.  I have a Schiit Vali here as well.. another terrific amp.. the biggest difference between the Vali & Ember is the Ember has a deeper stage and more powerful low end.  I'd be perfectly happy with the Vali, but the Ember is a great value for a couple hundred more, too.


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## soundbear

flysweep said:


> Yep.. I dig the open chassis design, too.. it's fun to be able to look at all the parts that went into this beautiful little amp.  It helps all the soldering work is exquisitely done, so it all looks very clean and professional (and they used top grade caps and things).  I've had the Ember for a month or two now.. it's simply terrific.  It sounded a bit harsh, ootb.. and for a good few weeks, actually.. but with use, it smoothed and and seems very transparent to the tube one rolls in.  It's a very powerful amp too.. I've thrown the HD600, HD650, LCD-X, and the HE-500 at it.. and it doesn't break a sweat.  Aside from being able to drive those phones to deafening levels, it's a refined amp that provides excellent depth an control.  I've got an LCD-2 coming this week, so I'm interested to see how it plays with the Ember.  I have a Schiit Vali here as well.. another terrific amp.. the biggest difference between the Vali & Ember is the Ember has a deeper stage and more powerful low end.  I'd be perfectly happy with the Vali, but the Ember is a great value for a couple hundred more, too.


 
I can dig it, he can dig it, she can dig it, we can dig it, they can dig it, you can dig it
oh, let's dig it. can you dig it, baby?
I can dig it, he can dig it, she can dig it, we can dig it, they can dig it, you can dig it
oh, let's dig it. 
can you dig it, baby?


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## rmouser

razrr1275 said:


> money4me247 said:
> 
> 
> > hey cld someone please explain to me the differences between the different Garage1217 projects (starlight vs sunrise 2 vs ember)? I read the full descriptions for each one but it all sounds like mumbo jumbo to mee lol. I need it explained in practical layman terms =S
> ...


 

 I have Ember, PS2 and Starlight so here goes:
  
 Starlight:
      1. Accepts higher heater current tubes than Ember.
      2. Uses opamps in the output stage. There are two sockets per channel--the amps are "paralleled" so that all four (two per IC) outputs combine. So you take the output spec (data         
       sheet) and multiply by four to get your output current. Because they are in sockets, you can roll the output section like the tube. Because it is not Class A operation the output section  
       runs slightly higher than room temp.
      3.  Low (1.5 ohm) and high (68 ohm) output resistance settings.
      4.  Manual bias setting via LED.
      5. Starlight is the entry level amp--it has a single color LED under the tube--the others have three color adjustments.
      6. Runs on 24 volts.
  
 Sunrise 2:
      1. Accepts higher heater current tubes than Ember.
      2. Output resistance selection 5 and 68 ohms.
      3. Manual bias setting via LED.
      4. Class A output section--runs very warm but not hot--don't touch.
      5. Runs on 24 volts.
  
 Ember:
       1. Easy tube rolling--just plug tube in and it determines the heater voltage automatically--BUT--it can't take higher current tubes like Sunrise 2 and Starlight.
       2. Opamp output section--low heat output.
       3. Three output resistance settings--.1, 35 and 150 ohm.
       4. Normal and high (+6db) gain tube settings.
       5. Has enough power to run any dynamic headphone so far. Because of this it runs on 48 volts.


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## money4me247

rmouser said:


> I have Ember, PS2 and Starlight so here goes:


 
 gawdd i'm soo jealoussss!!!
  
 thanks for that informative description


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## MaN227

I've enjoyed reading this thread, sounds like a winner of an amp and a loser of a banned techboy lol
  
 I have a few "open" amps (posts and plexi) and as such my preference would be a closed in case for the ember. not to sound crazy lol but in my mind I can picture a black box with a channel for a slider lid ( for lack of a better way to put it) that can slide in on top from the rear with a cut out tube hole and perhaps a few vent holes (lid made of plexi glass) with a tube cage attached. more protected, less interference perhaps and still can see the parts.
  
 speaking of interference, how it is with the ember?
  
 I have NO clue where I could find a case to fit this thing. has anyone actually put it in a case? if so please a linky to purchase page of site that sells it.


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## iancraig10

I've had protos of all three, and as far as interference goes, they're not bad. The Sunrise was a bit noisy when I first got it but Jeremy did some minor mods following my comments which seems to have cut it out. Never had it with Horizon or Ember and after mods, it also stopped with the Sunrise.

Ember would be good in a box. It generates so little heat. I guess Sunrise and Ember could be attached to external heatsink.


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## connieflyer

Go to this page and about the fourth comment shows the prototype in an enclosure,  thought about it myself........http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember


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## MaN227

thx ian, connie.
  
 good news on interference, or should I say lack there of ? hehe
  
 case. that is somewhat like I was thinking, (and actually the photo that gave me the idea  )
  
 just picture that black top in photo being clear plexi that could slide into top and the main case having sides  . I think that would look friggin awesome actually 
  
 perhaps I should hit up "mr wizzard"  over at DIYAH for the source and dimensions of this case.
  
 if I can obtain this info I will share it here for others.
  
 Peace


----------



## connieflyer

Sounds like a plan.  I like the idea of the acrilic top and I prefer to have the power switch in front.  
 An all clear case sounds good too.  Get to work, now!!!


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## money4me247

connieflyer said:


> Sounds like a plan.  I like the idea of the acrilic top and I prefer to have the power switch in front.
> An all clear case sounds good too.  Get to work, now!!!


 
 +1 on TRANSPARENT case!!!! that would be ballerrr status


----------



## MaN227

all I could get so far is that case was sourced about 25 or 30 years ago, and the tube cage is a custom job. still working on getting dimensions, will share them once I have them , or should if say when AND IF i have them 
  
 perhaps those that have one here an share the dimensions of the pcb, to start from there?


----------



## connieflyer

http://www.takachi-enclosure.com/data/p_01plastic.html
http://www.amazon.com/BeagleBone-Black-Clear-Acrylic-Enclosure/dp/B00ECW9NTQ
http://www.jameco.com/1/1/4882-721-32212-enclosure-multi-board-clear-4-5x3-5x2-0-inch-pre-cut-knockouts.html
  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiETlYskTrY
  
http://7hillsmake.org/2012/03/16/making-laser-cut-acrylic-boxesenclosures/
  
http://lifehacker.com/5984862/diy-acrylic-enclosure-displays-just-about-anything-in-your-home
  
 and of course Mouser has a full line of boxes, http://www.mouser.com/Enclosures/Enclosures-Boxes-Cases/_/N-5g3p
  
 So when can we expect the proto type?


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## money4me247

just curious if anyone experienced any problems with EF shielding when their smartphone is near their project ember?


----------



## connieflyer

Not for me, my smart phone is not smart enough to emit phone calls let alone EF.


----------



## iancraig10

money4me247 said:


> just curious if anyone experienced any problems with EF shielding when their smartphone is near their project ember?




Only when the phone is beside it. Also depends how far away the mast is.


----------



## money4me247

iancraig10 said:


> Only when the phone is beside it. Also depends how far away the mast is.


 
 how close is "besides it?" directly against it? semi-near it? on the same table? in the same room?
  
 lol


----------



## MaN227

connieflyer said:


> Not for me, my smart phone is not smart enough to emit phone calls let alone EF.


 

 LMAO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 that made my day, classic.


----------



## connieflyer

I am here to serve, more than I can say for the stupid phone


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## iancraig10

money4me247 said:


> how close is "besides it?" directly against it? semi-near it? on the same table? in the same room?
> 5
> lol :tongue_smile:




I suppose for me, about 12 to 24 inches!! My mast is quite a way so e phone is possibly sending a stronger contact signal. Then again, I've also heard it on other gear. After Christmas, you could try wrapping it in the Turkey's tin foil. Very cheap enclosure.  

Or turn the phone off and leave a 'do not disturb' message?


----------



## money4me247

iancraig10 said:


> I suppose for me, about 12 to 24 inches!! My mast is quite a way so e phone is possibly sending a stronger contact signal. Then again, I've also heard it on other gear. After Christmas, you could try wrapping it in the Turkey's tin foil. Very cheap enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 yay! thanks for the specific measurements 
  
 have a merry xmas


----------



## connieflyer

I have had my phone right next to the ember and have never had a problem with it.  I am saying within inches here, like three or so.  Like I said my phones not so smart, but it doesn't interfere with my music.  If it did it would not be with me.  Music first, contact with the outside world later.  Merry Christmas everyone.  Don


----------



## iancraig10

The distance to the mast also has an effect. If you are (like me) in the middle of nowhere, the phone sends out a powerful signal to reach it and keep in contact. Even I have to put it very close and then again, my MF V8 also picks it up and that's boxed!!


----------



## campj

What DACs are you guys pairing with the Ember?


----------



## RAZRr1275

campj said:


> What DACs are you guys pairing with the Ember?


 
 I use an ODAC


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## mukulymn

I use an ODAC too


----------



## campj

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about getting... either that, or some swanky expensive DAC/amp combo. Looks like ODAC it is. You guys saved me a lot of money!


----------



## money4me247

new project sunrise III & project horizon III out if anyone is interested!
  
 also, quick question. is there any worries of damaging headphones or the amp when turning on/off this amp? i read some random things about tube amps requiring special protocol when turning on/off & i'm not too sure how accurate the person is.


----------



## MaN227

safest bet and easy with a wee bit of forethought , unplug headphones after every use. turn on amp to warm up  THEN plug in headphones.
  
 something I like to do as well is turn vol pot all the way down after listening.
  
 with the power this puts out, I would not be the least bit surprised if you had vol pot turned up high that it could kill your cans, turning on the amp. not sure just my assumption.
  
 vol pot to minimum, plug in cans. its become habit for me at this point with ANY can/amp combo. better safe than sorry and its SO easy.
  
 not been around in awhile see this ODAC mentioned a LOT, I currently use the AUNE amp/dac ... this one 
 is the ODAC better?


----------



## Modular

money4me247 said:


> new project sunrise III & project horizon III out if anyone is interested!
> 
> also, quick question. is there any worries of damaging headphones or the amp when turning on/off this amp? i read some random things about tube amps requiring special protocol when turning on/off & i'm not too sure how accurate the person is.


 
  
  
 Yes! I saw that they are planning a solid state amp as well, I cannot wait!
  
  I have the Sunrise 2 and pair it with dt880's. It's a phenomenal amp for sure. I really wish more people would give these guys a try, they are the real deal!


----------



## MaN227

here is more info on size. straight from the horses mouth.
  


> The PCB is 4.25 / 5.25" Most any enclosure is a rather custom fit as our PCB's are quite thick and would not slide into any so just choose something larger than the PCB.


 
  
 not sure what having this info will do being as the pcb is thicker than the norm.
  
 was also told they are working on "solid" enclosures for all their amps.
  


> We are working on a metal enclosure option for all of our amplifiers however the tube, and large caps will still be exposed (tube being exposed is generally what causes interference issues)


 
  
 time will tell.


----------



## campj

Is there any word on when the solid state amp and the metal enclosures will be available? Before May (hopefully)?


----------



## remilio

asr said:


> The review-unit Project Ember got in a couple of days ago, and I have to say it's one of the coolest-looking DIY-type amps that I've ever seen. I didn't think I would like the open-frame-style chassis but it's not that bad, and the plexiglass top is just awesome.
> 
> I'd post initial impressions but I recently got new headphones (Sennheiser HD598 and Shure SRH1540) and I'm adjusting to them as well. So I'll just post a pic for now. Since most of the pics I've seen have been annoyingly dark, I decided to make it annoyingly bright.
> 
> ...


 
 Your impressions about Ember paired with AD2000 will be appreciated! I'm a new AD2000 owner and Ember seems to be very good tube solution for them!


----------



## MaN227

campj said:


> Is there any word on when the solid state amp and the metal enclosures will be available? Before May (hopefully)?


 
 sorry mate, not as of yet, but ... perhaps. may is 5 months away, not sure how fast availability will arrive.


----------



## money4me247

man227 said:


> sorry mate, not as of yet, but ... perhaps. may is 5 months away, not sure how fast availability will arrive.


 
 hey MaN227, do you work for garage1217? lol this might be a silly question, but will you guys be coming out w/ a project ember version 2? I'm probably not going to upgrade my equipment for a long time, so I can wait  heh.


----------



## MaN227

money4me247 said:


> hey MaN227, do you work for garage1217? lol this might be a silly question, but will you guys be coming out w/ a project ember version 2? I'm probably not going to upgrade my equipment for a long time, so I can wait  heh.


 
 hehe no bro sorry, I do not. I am just an enthusiast of headphones and amps and the ember just happens to be one that I have interest in.
  
 but to try and answer your question I feel it safe to assume there will be and ember v2, one need look no farther that sunrise II, and recent release of sunrise III.
  
 to be 100% honest I'm VERY curious how their SS amp will turn out, and what the enclosures they will offer for currently released amps will be like and their cost.
  
 upward and onward


----------



## FlySweep

LCD-2 (rosewood) arrived today.. I like them a lot.. and it pairs wonderfully with the Ember.


----------



## Kurumster

So I picked this thing up about a month ago to step away from my E17. I have the ATH-AD2000 as my headkrones. Aside from the stock tube, the only one I was able to get that I was interested in was the Jan 5751. Weird thing is, I've been reading all day and apparently even those tubes still have a bit more gain than needed for the AD2000. One thing that immediately annoyed me was the "noise" I was getting and a few tricks did get rid of some of the noise, but it was obviously still there. I tried using the dac portion of my E17 after I bought some bluejeans cables (they are great btw) and it did improve a bit, but yeah. I've read this thread and a lot of people seem to be using the ODAC (which is one of the DACS I was in the market for), but I am interested in getting the Bifrost.
  
 Does anyone have any experience with the Bifrost + Ember? I am still relatively new when it comes to audio. I read that as long as the source is great and transparent I should be fine. I'm also going to pick up some more tubes so I can do a lot more experimenting (I haven't been able to do much) as well as get some more headphones in the future. The reason I got the Ember in the first place is its ability to drive a number of headkrones and and change up the sound with tubes. I've enjoyed it so far.


----------



## Asr

^ An RCA 12AU7 is an effective tube for the AD2K. Out of the variety of tubes that I have right now it's the quietest, lowest-gain tube.


----------



## rckyosho

I second that....get the 12AU7 tube.....set jumpers to low gain and 120R output resistance and it should be good for your AD2K.....the 5751 tube is a high mu tube in other word a high gain tube (good for planars).


----------



## connieflyer

A good site to check out is http://diyah.boards.net/ under ampifiers choose project ember, they have a lot of good and useful information on the site.  If you want to know more about tubes and suggestions check out the section called tubes/thermionic valves.  They are a helpful bunch and will give you good info. The last tube I purchased for my ember is Westinghouse 12au7/ECC82 black carbonized plates tube raised []-getter (181282688741)  and so far it is the best I have heard..  Good listening.  Also if you plan on doing some tube rolling get one of these, it makes it a lot easier to insert and remove the tube.  I brings the tube socket up thru the top about a half inch.  Will also make you board socket last longer and it has vibration damping.  I got mine here, good people to deal with.........http://www.tubemonger.com/NOVIB_Socket_Saver_with_Vibration_Red_B9A_NOVAL_p/novib.htm


----------



## Kurumster

Yeah when I first started out and did all my reading I was under the impression that the 5751 tubes are what I was supposed to be getting. I'm gonna go with 12AU7 series and some others. I can't even remember the sites that reviewed all the tubes I was interested in. I'm going to end up getting some high gain tubes down the road whenever I pick up my other headphones though, so the Jan 5751 isn't going to complete waste.
  
 I'm going to check out your link connieflyer. Thanks guys.


----------



## Asr

rckyosho said:


> I second that....get the 12AU7 tube.....set jumpers to low gain and 120R output resistance and it should be good for your AD2K.....the 5751 tube is a high mu tube in other word a high gain tube (good for planars).


 
  
 Strikethrough'd for correction; don't set the amp to 120 Ohm output resistance for the AD2K. Use the 0.1 Ohm setting instead. The 120 Ohm output resistance completely destroys the AD2K's sonic signature.


----------



## iancraig10

What does it do? I would have thought that the bass might be slightly raised but not destroy the sound Sig.


----------



## RAZRr1275

Anyone hook the HD800 or HE-6 up to the Ember by chance?


----------



## Kurumster

Is the Black Sable RCA Clear top worth the extra money? Talking about at Tubedepot.


----------



## Asr

iancraig10 said:


> What does it do? I would have thought that the bass might be slightly raised but not destroy the sound Sig.


 
  
 The 120 Ohm setting decreases the AD2K's relative treble and transmogrifies its forward- & aggressive-sounding signature to something more laid-back.


----------



## iancraig10

asr said:


> The 120 Ohm setting decreases the AD2K's relative treble and transmogrifies its forward- & aggressive-sounding signature to something more laid-back.




Ok, that's what would be expected, although I find the effect on my Ember to be quite subtle. I guess you've tried the middle setting, 35 ohms?


----------



## Asr

I sent back the review-unit Project Ember today and have started writing the review. Will have it posted by 1/12.
  


iancraig10 said:


> Ok, that's what would be expected, although I find the effect on my Ember to be quite subtle. I guess you've tried the middle setting, 35 ohms?


 
  
 Yup, I did try the 35 Ohm setting and would call that a subtle change from the 0.1 Ohm setting; the 120 Ohm setting on the other hand wasn't subtle though.


----------



## Asr

Just posted my review here: http://www.head-fi.org/products/garage1217-project-ember-hybrid-headphone-amplifier-preamp/reviews/10302


----------



## bala

Thanks for the detailed review Asr! I was thinking about the Ember for my AT W1000x ( and a future HE500), but I am now hesitant with the  noise issue (does the RCA 12AU7 completely solve the problem?). The Vali too seems to have some noise issues with the ATs, apart from the microphonics.


----------



## 1llest

Great Review! 
How about a comparison against other hybrid tube amps like the Lyr or Pan am.

Question about the pre-amp function, does it mute the pre-amp out when a headphone is plugged in?


----------



## RAZRr1275

asr said:


> Just posted my review here: http://www.head-fi.org/products/garage1217-project-ember-hybrid-headphone-amplifier-preamp/reviews/10302


 
 Great review! A couple things though
  
 As far as the hiss try high output impedance - that'll at least quiet it down if you get one.
  
 Also experiment with high gain and bypassed input caps - I detect a sonic difference with both so the gain isn't just about volume in this case. 
  
 As far as 6DJ8s they're great tubes - My favorites are the Amperex offerings as well as a Tesla that I have


----------



## Asr

bala said:


> Thanks for the detailed review Asr! I was thinking about the Ember for my AT W1000x ( and a future HE500), but I am now hesitant with the  noise issue (does the RCA 12AU7 completely solve the problem?). The Vali too seems to have some noise issues with the ATs, apart from the microphonics.


 
  
 Almost every tube or hybrid amp I've heard has had at least a little bit of hiss. The 12AU7 wasn't completely silent but the hiss was minor enough that it wasn't very noticeable. If even a little bit of hiss would be too much for you then I'd recommend getting a solid-state amp instead, as those tend to be silent.
  


1llest said:


> Great Review!
> How about a comparison against other hybrid tube amps like the Lyr or Pan am.
> 
> Question about the pre-amp function, does it mute the pre-amp out when a headphone is plugged in?


 
  
 I previously owned the Lyr and would take the Project Ember over it easily. Sound quality aside, it was way too difficult to remove tubes from the Lyr and I actually caused a tube to implode once when trying to pull it out. I think some others have posted some Lyr vs Project Ember comparisons but I personally won't be doing that, just not interested in getting a Lyr again. Would much rather have the Project Ember especially when it's over $100 cheaper and makes removing tubes much easier.
  
 No idea on the pre-amp question, as I never used it. Would be better to ask Garage1217 about that.
  


razrr1275 said:


> Great review! A couple things though
> As far as the hiss try high output impedance - that'll at least quiet it down if you get one.
> 
> Also experiment with high gain and bypassed input caps - I detect a sonic difference with both so the gain isn't just about volume in this case.
> ...


 
  
 Increasing the output resistance had a negative sonic effect especially on the AD2K. It sounded terribly dark at Hi output resistance. It was better-sounding at Med output resistance but still not as good as at Lo.
  
 I returned the review unit so no experimenting for me.


----------



## ninjapirate9901

Nice one Asr!
  
 One thing I took away from your review was that the higher gain tubes actually drive inefficient cans better. I thought the tube had no real effect on power output on the Ember?


----------



## ninjapirate9901

Oh and on a side note, the Alpha Dogs pair up pretty nicely with the Ember


----------



## IPoopFrootLoops

Just wanted to add my experiences into the pot. Jeremy is the perfect example of how great a small company's customer service can be. After exchanging several emails with the guy, he offered to include two sets of tubes with the amp. That was a little over 3 months ago, and I've been rocking it with an HD650. Sounds like sonic heaven.


----------



## Asr

ninjapirate9901 said:


> Nice one Asr!
> One thing I took away from your review was that the higher gain tubes actually drive inefficient cans better. I thought the tube had no real effect on power output on the Ember?


 
  
 It's just a guess but I'd think that high-gain tubes are better able to increase volume into inefficient loads, not that the power output is necessarily higher.


----------



## IPoopFrootLoops




----------



## 1llest

Thanks @Asr
  
 I decided to purchase the Ember and asked Jeremy to do the Line out disconnect mod. Can't wait to get it!


----------



## ninjapirate9901

1llest said:


> I decided to purchase the Ember and asked Jeremy to do the Line out disconnect mod. Can't wait to get it!


 
  
 Sweet, hope you enjoy it.


----------



## 1llest

Is it ok to change the output resistance while the amp is turned on?


----------



## gamefreak054

1llest said:


> Is it ok to change the output resistance while the amp is turned on?


 
 Hmm, I actually never thought of that. I am curious to the answer of this too.
  
 Anyways I pulled the trigger on one of these as my first desktop amp for my alpha dogs using my DX100 as a DAC. I never considered what my dad's amplifiers used for tubes, so I decided to check out his tube stash and he has one of the cases in the picture with the sides filled with 12ax7 and 12au7 tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 This will be fun
  
 .


----------



## 1llest

Just wanted to share a few pics of the Ember. It sounds very good! I'll be sticking with the stock tube for now.


----------



## Asr

1llest said:


> Is it ok to change the output resistance while the amp is turned on?


 
  
 Yes it is, I asked Garage1217 the same question and was told it's perfectly ok. Jeremy encouraged it in fact, in order to hear the difference that it can make.


----------



## gamefreak054

1llest said:


> Just wanted to share a few pics of the Ember. It sounds very good! I'll be sticking with the stock tube for now.


 
 Just curious how do you like the amp compared to your other two? I was really curious in the vali when it first came out, and then I was recently looking into the M stage but decided the Ember seemed better for a bit more money. I do not have much experience with desktop stuff. I guess am always a bit skeptical about the next upgrade despite being proved wrong many many times. Not to open a debate but, I still find it quite shocking how much a cable can change the tone of a sound imo. Also have you tried it for gaming with the mixamp? I was just about to dabble in headphone gaming and picked up the DSS to spare my wallet a bit and will be using the ember.


----------



## 1llest

gamefreak054 said:


> Just curious how do you like the amp compared to your other two? I was really curious in the vali when it first came out, and then I was recently looking into the M stage but decided the Ember seemed better for a bit more money. I do not have much experience with desktop stuff. I guess am always a bit skeptical about the next upgrade despite being proved wrong many many times. Not to open a debate but, I still find it quite shocking how much a cable can change the tone of a sound imo. Also have you tried it for gaming with the mixamp? I was just about to dabble in headphone gaming and picked up the DSS to spare my wallet a bit and will be using the ember.


 
  
 The M-Stage and Vali are almost comparable in my opinion.  I find the Vali with a touch more clarity but with a little sparkle, which I found fatiguing with my Fidelio X1 compared to the M-Stage. Both Sounds really good and the Vali is way cheaper. I prefer the M-Stage more though cause of its preamp.
  
 But now that I have the Ember,  It is my new favorite! I also ask Jeremy to do the Line out disconnect mod whenever a headphone is plugged in. These are very good preamps for my studio monitors.
  
 As for the sound, I really like how you can tune the sound to your likings and will work with a lot of other headphones. I assume it will only get better when I switch out the stock tube.
  
 I have not used it with the mixamp yet since I just got these today but im sure it will sound good.
  
 I really love this amp and its also my first tube amp. My M-Stage will probably start collecting dust.


----------



## 1llest

asr said:


> Yes it is, I asked Garage1217 the same question and was told it's perfectly ok. Jeremy encouraged it in fact, in order to hear the difference that it can make.


 
  
 Thanks a lot! I should of asked in the beginning because its a hassle turning it on and off with the 30 second protection circuit.


----------



## ninjapirate9901

Time for some Project Pornog


----------



## 1llest

Purple LED is sick!


----------



## gamefreak054

I am actually getting the purple LED w/black knob installed in mine. I did not even know I could choose until Jeremy contacted me. In which he stated that he liked the purple one as well


----------



## 1llest

gamefreak054 said:


> I am actually getting the purple LED w/black knob installed in mine. I did not even know I could choose until Jeremy contacted me. In which he stated that he liked the purple one as well




You can choose your own color as well when you get it. It has an RGB setting which is pretty cool!


----------



## gamefreak054

Really how do you adjust it?
  
 I wonder why he even asked which color I wanted then.


----------



## 1llest

gamefreak054 said:


> Really how do you adjust it?
> 
> I wonder why he even asked which color I wanted then.


 
 Its simple, just a screw driver. There's 3 dial settings right below the tube.
 Download the project ember manual from their website and you will see it.


----------



## gamefreak054

1llest said:


> Its simple, just a screw driver. There's 3 dial settings right below the tube.
> Download the project ember manual from their website and you will see it.


 
 I have been meaning to check out that manual.
  
 Just curious is the OP amp swappable? and has anybody tried swapping it? I know nothing about op amps.


----------



## connieflyer

No swapping of opamps.  Soldered in, for good reason.


----------



## gamefreak054

connieflyer said:


> No swapping of opamps.  Soldered in, for good reason.


 
 Lol, ok I was just curious.


----------



## rikaldrey

gamefreak054 said:


> Really how do you adjust it?
> 
> I wonder why he even asked which color I wanted then.


 

 When you finally figured how to adjust the color please don't "over-turn" the potentiometers. It only turn 0-180 degrees I think but definitely less than 360. I accidentally did this to mine and I think broke a spring inside my Red pot and the dial slightly popped up, I pushed it back in whilst it works perfectly fine now but it didn't looked like it used to. Just a warning, before you get too excited like me. Be gentle, just follow through. ;p Enjoy your Ember!


----------



## gamefreak054

Cool thanks for the tip as it sounds like something I would do lol. I am most likely to leave it as purple anyways.


----------



## gamefreak054

Sorry for the double post, but if people are looking for tube opinions I made a tube rolling thread after listening to my amp yesterday for several hours. Check it out http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling


----------



## ninjapirate9901

gamefreak054 said:


> Sorry for the double post, but if people are looking for tube opinions I made a tube rolling thread after listening to my amp yesterday for several hours. Check it out http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling


 
  
 Nice impressions, also just so you are aware, there is another tube rolling thread that has been a bit silent for a while:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/641936/project-sunrise-ps2-tube-rolling-thread-and-maybe-even-project-horizon-and-project-ember


----------



## gamefreak054

Oh dang I did not see that. I directed mine towards the ember only though (obviously).
  
 I also really did not want to stuff all that in one post and it be buried pretty fast. I considered just posting it on here as well.


----------



## ninjapirate9901

gamefreak054 said:


> Oh dang I did not see that. I directed mine towards the ember only though (obviously).
> 
> I also really did not want to stuff all that in one post and it be buried pretty fast. I considered just posting it on here as well.


 
  
 No worries man, it's always good to see more discussion around the Ember. I have to say that you are pretty lucky being able to listen to all the tubes your old man had. I was looking to buy a few of the ones you listed last year but damn, the pricing on some of them is just ridiculous.


----------



## gamefreak054

ninjapirate9901 said:


> No worries man, it's always good to see more discussion around the Ember. I have to say that you are pretty lucky being able to listen to all the tubes your old man had. I was looking to buy a few of the ones you listed last year but damn, the pricing on some of them is just ridiculous.


 
 Yeah I know. He has been amassing his collection for quite some time now. He loves tube amps and always tells people he is never going back to solid state lol.
  
 I could tell he got excited when I started playing around with it. He originally only gave me 5 or 6 tubes to try as he could not use the 12AT7s in anything he has (which means I get to keep the telefunken 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). Then I got to about the 4th one and he was like "well maybe you should try this one" and you can kinda see what that led up to. I am pretty sure he has other models, but I tried all of his best tubes.


----------



## Idgit

Anyone have an idea how the Ember stacks up to the Elekit TU882?


----------



## Thujone

Subbed


----------



## akarise

Already asked this in the Project Ember vs Schiit Lyr thread but it seems kinda dead so I'll ask again here:
  


> Have their been any comparisons between Ember and Lyr based on sound quality and not functionality? I don't really plan on tube-rolling so the ease of removing them won't matter to me much. I know different tubes will change the sound for either but any comparison would be helpful.


 
  
 I'll be using one of these to pair with the HE-560 when they are released so I'm trying to decide which one to get beforehand.


----------



## rckyosho

A post in diyah forum hopefully will help sway your decision
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


> After about a week of usage...... I've sold off my lyr without much struggle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Read more: http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143?page=24#ixzz2ufnhid9Y
  

I don't have the lyr myself but have compared the ember to other HP amps and IMHO I would take the ember over anything else, even gear costing 2 or 3 times over (SQ wise). But this is personal audio after all so YMMV as preference is still king.


----------



## rmouser

To digress a bit to 6 volt land:  GE 6DJ8 smoked glass vs Sylvania 6922 vs Voshkod Rocket 6H23.
  
 The 6922 (Google research) is considered an upgraded 6DJ8
  
 The GE 6DJ8 has a "smoked" glass, which is actually an RF shield--it IS really quiet.
  
 The Rocket 6H23 is highly respected in Google research.
  
 I used one pair of phones--DT880 and one song--Steely Dan's "AJA". Any SD song is good--they were "infamous" at recording studios for retakes.
  
 Bottom line is that all three sounded very close--no winner! I guess part of that is that the Ember has been quoted as making "any tube sound good", however, some sound better than others. I generally prefer 12 volt tubes, but these three compete on an equal level.
  
 Next pass is Pink Floyd "Wish You Were Here" and "Dark Side of the Moon" remastered.


----------



## ericr

Well, I just ordered a Project Ember with the Super Charger heater option!. My Asgard 2 is great with my IEMs, but a poor match for the Beyer T90. Hopefully with its adjustable output impedance the Ember will be much better at driving the T90s, without sacrificing performance with the IEMs.


----------



## RedBull

Not many impression comparison between this and Vali (forget the ringing as i dont have any).
Any comparison for high impedance phones?
am I correct to say Vali is better for high impedance and Ember for low impedance orthos?


----------



## connieflyer

Ember has settings for hi and lo gain, as well as three resistance settings that can be changed while listening without having to cut power and change setting, so it is easy to adjust the resistance to better match your phones.  I am using Senn Hd 650's and it has no trouble driving these phones.  With most tubes,  the max on the volume knob I use is about halfway, and it is plenty loud..  I have mine set at lo gain and lo resistance. These are the specs for it....http://garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_004.htm
  

Solid state output stage
Non overall feedback - triode voltage gain stage
Power consumption: 5W continuous, 15W peak
Solid state output stage
Non overall feedback - triode voltage gain stage
Power consumption: 5W continuous, 15W peak
Power supply: 48VDC (0.10A cont, 0.32A peak)
Input Resistance: 20k or 40k depending on gain setting
Input Sensitivity (6N23): 0.8V or 1.6V (dependent on gain setting and used tube)
Gain: 20- 26dB (selectable and dependent on tube)
Max Output voltage: 15.7Vrms at 300Ohm
Output Resistance: Selectable 0.1, 35 or 120Ohm
Frequency Response: 3Hz – 65 KHz (-0.5dB) with 32Ohm load
Frequency Response: 1.5Hz – 190 KHz (-3dB) with 32Ohm load
Signal to Noise ratio: 92dBA (dependent on tube)
Crosstalk: -89dB (dependent on tube)
THD: > 0.010% (dependent on tube)
Suitable for: 16-600ohm Headphones
Power supply: 48VDC (0.10A cont, 0.32A peak)
Input Resistance: 20k or 40k depending on gain setting
Input Sensitivity (6N23): 0.8V or 1.6V (dependent on gain setting and used tube)
Gain: 20- 26dB (selectable and dependent on tube)
Max Output voltage: 15.7Vrms at 300Ohm
Output Resistance: Selectable 0.1, 35 or 120Ohm
Frequency Response: 3Hz – 65 KHz (-0.5dB) with 32Ohm load
Frequency Response: 1.5Hz – 190 KHz (-3dB) with 32Ohm load
Signal to Noise ratio: 92dBA (dependent on tube)
Crosstalk: -89dB (dependent on tube)
THD: > 0.010% (dependent on tube)
Suitable for: 16-600ohm Headphones

 
Solid state output stage
Solid state output stage
Non overall feedback - triode voltage gain stage
Power consumption: 5W continuous, 15W peak
Power supply: 48VDC (0.10A cont, 0.32A peak)
Input Resistance: 20k or 40k depending on gain setting
Input Sensitivity (6N23): 0.8V or 1.6V (dependent on gain setting and used tube)
Gain: 20- 26dB (selectable and dependent on tube)
Max Output voltage: 15.7Vrms at 300Ohm
Output Resistance: Selectable 0.1, 35 or 120Ohm
Frequency Response: 3Hz – 65 KHz (-0.5dB) with 32Ohm load
Frequency Response: 1.5Hz – 190 KHz (-3dB) with 32Ohm load
Signal to Noise ratio: 92dBA (dependent on tube)
Crosstalk: -89dB (dependent on tube)
THD: > 0.010% (dependent on tube)
Suitable for: 16-600ohm Headphones
Non overall feedback - triode voltage gain stage
Power consumption: 5W continuous, 15W peak
Power supply: 48VDC (0.10A cont, 0.32A peak)
Input Resistance: 20k or 40k depending on gain setting
Input Sensitivity (6N23): 0.8V or 1.6V (dependent on gain setting and used tube)
Gain: 20- 26dB (selectable and dependent on tube)
Max Output voltage: 15.7Vrms at 300Ohm
Output Resistance: Selectable 0.1, 35 or 120Ohm
Frequency Response: 3Hz – 65 KHz (-0.5dB) with 32Ohm load
Frequency Response: 1.5Hz – 190 KHz (-3dB) with 32Ohm load
Signal to Noise ratio: 92dBA (dependent on tube)
Crosstalk: -89dB (dependent on tube)
THD: > 0.010% (dependent on tube)
Suitable for: 16-600ohm Headphones


----------



## richbass

How does the project starlight compare to these?


----------



## ethan7000

richbass said:


> How does the project starlight compare to these?



Less power, rollable opamps, one LED color.


----------



## GrdironTrenches

where can 12AX7VKA Russian tube. is it listed on Project Ember website


----------



## Amish

This thread is about the closest I've found to an dedicated Ember thread. I received mine today and just using the stock tube I'm pretty happy. I have a few tubes on order that I look forward to trying. The stock tube is very comparable to the sound my HK 3490 outputs via it's headphone port. The HK provides a bit more punch in the bass output but I actually prefer the the low freq. of the Ember even if it's a bit weaker with this tube. The stock tube provides a fairly clean, somewhat detailed sound and a little more open than my HK. Instrument separation is about the same. I look forward to rolling a few tubes to see what I prefer.
  
 I'll toss in a shot of my Ember earlier tonight.


----------



## ericr

Nice!

It's a very impressive amp (especially for the price), isn't it.

There's an Ember tube rolling thread too.


----------



## Amish

ericr said:


> Nice!
> 
> It's a very impressive amp (especially for the price), isn't it.
> 
> There's an Ember tube rolling thread too.


 
 Yes it is! I've read through the tube rolling thread several times now. lol


----------



## money4me247

garage1217 is coming out w/ a new solid-state amp: project polaris!!! shipping july 21st!! 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/725896/new-from-garage1217-the-solid-state-project-polaris/15
 http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_013.htm
  
 ps: you guys think they will refresh project ember anytime soon?


----------



## kothganesh

Hello everybody:
  
 Just received the Ember. Using it with the Macbook Air (iTunes + Amarra) and the Schiit Gungnir DAC. HPs used for the last hour or so are the Fostex TH 900 and the HE 6. The amp drives both especially the former with ease. On the latter I do have to turn the volume pot to around 12-1 on the clock. Just playing with the stock tube for now. I have the Silver Voshkods and the Amperex Bugle Boy so got to get the tubes rolling this weekend. Any recommendations on "burn-in" ?
  
 Glad to be part of the club.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Will be doing some switching between the Ember and Polaris via Schiit Sys (full volume as I'm using it in reverse 2 outs and 1 in). Running off the Yulong D100 as a DAC with a V/Link 192 transport using all CD FLAC and a few Hi-Rez files.


----------



## smitty1110

It will be interesting to hear your thoughs about the two. What tube(s) will you be using with the Ember?


----------



## RedBull

Can anyone compare the sound signature of ember and Vali? Thank you


----------



## smitty1110

redbull said:


> Can anyone compare the sound signature of ember and Vali? Thank you


 

 Unfortunately, Ember's sound is highly dependent on the tube. Everything else is fairly transparent, especially if you take the output caps out of the signal line. If you want some good impressions, head over to the Ember tube rolling thread.


----------



## RedBull

Thanks for the direction smitty. I will go there.


----------



## smitty1110

Another good thread (over at DIY AUdio Heaven) - http://diyah.boards.net/thread/366/
  
 The real bonus on this thread is that solderdude is one of the G1217 guys.


----------



## inphu510n

Hi all,
  
 Firstly thanks for all of the input you've provided about the Ember. I've gone over a lot of threads about the Ember and am fairly set on purchasing one in the not too distant future.
 One thing that I'm concerned about (and I have emailed with Jeremy about) is the use of low impedance, high sensitivity cans with this amp.
 Technically the Sunrise III would be better suited to cans like that.
 I guess what I'm concerned about is using the low output resistance in order to achieve proper impedance ratios between the amp and the headphones. If you don't use low gain/high impedance, it's a lot easier to blow up your drivers.
 I've seen people suggest using the lowest gain and highest output impedance for low impedance phones.
 Wouldn't this severely screw up the FR of the phones? Some people have said it sounds superb that way. I'm confused because I've definitely heard the tubby, muddy bass and other bits caused by poor impedance matching.
  
 That said, I'll be moving on to planars at some point so it seems wiser to get the Ember instead of getting the Sunrise III and wanting for wattage later on.


----------



## Asr

^ Low gain with low output resistance, plus a low-gain tube (like the 12AU7 or similar) provides for enough volume fine-tuning with low-impedance, sensitive headphones. I actually tried it with a really sensitive headphone (the Audio-Technica AD2000 which is 40 Ohms and 102 dB/mW).
  
 You could also alternately get the Project Polaris instead which has an input attenuation module which effectively reduces the gain even more (and doesn't sacrifice anything in terms of the output power either).


----------



## ericr

Great question inphu510n.

When you order, ask Jeremy to do the 100K low gain mod. This drops the output of the low gain setting to be much more suitable for low impedance IEMs using the low impedance output setting. This mod along with tubes of lower gain as Asr recommends works great with my V6-Stage (22.ohms & 115 dB sens.)

The nice part is the mod doesn't affect the high gain setting at all, so my Ember drives my HM-560 very well also.

I don't know what it is with the Ember and low impedance IEMs - but it's an amazing combo I wasn't expecting. I was quite happy with my Asgard 2 with my IEMs but bought the Ember for its adjustable output impedance in order to better drive some high impedance full-size phones (T90 & T1). I wasn't expecting the Ember to improve on the Asgard 2 with my IEMs, but it makes the Asgard 2 sound flat, and slightly dull/veiled in comparison. Maybe it's a combo of the .1 (yes, that's 1/10th) Ohm output impedance along with plenty of stable power to handle the wide impedance swings of multi-driver IEMs. I was fortunate enough to have 4 days last week with the full Noble line-up and the Ember drove the K10 (10 drivers per side) very well too.


----------



## inphu510n

Ahhh interesting. Thanks for the tip about the extra low gain mod, that'll be helpful.
 Glad to know that you can run something like the V6 without burning them up. I'm currently using the Fidelio X1's and at 30Ohms, they're obviously very easy to drive.


----------



## connieflyer

Interesting thing happened the other day.  I use a novib socket saver to boost the height of the tube for easier swapping and to save the original socket from wear.  I purchased one about 11 months ago from Tubemonger.com.  The one I had started to act up so I contacted the seller, and explained what had happened.  He replied that he had sold thousands of them and only had about 8 go bad.  He made sure I swapped it in and out with other tubes and without novib.  This was on last Friday, I sent the email in the morning, and by afternoon had heard back from him.  He sent me a replacement the next day Saturday and I received it on Monday.  Customer service is alive and well, with this company.  He did not charge for it after 11 months of daily use, I feel good about this, that there are companies out there that still work with the customer to resolve issues. Felt he was trustworthy so I purchased a valve from him to so good faith.  Just wanted to pass on this info.  Don


----------



## manbear

Has anyone tried replacing the power brick thing with a power supply like this one? http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=64


----------



## smitty1110

manbear said:


> Has anyone tried replacing the power brick thing with a power supply like this one? http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=64


 

 I'd email Jeremy and ask him to make sure it will work fine, the project ember is really not the type of thing that you want to over power, the components are fairly exposed. Other than that, just make sure your grounded when turning stuff on


----------



## amigastar

Nice Review,
  
 my question would be though if the Project Ember would be an upgrade to my Matrix M-Stage with Hifiman HE-500?
 I've read so many positive things about the Vali amp from Schiit that i'm asking myself if the Ember can hold up to the Vali?
 Probably yes, or does it?


----------



## smitty1110

amigastar said:


> Nice Review,
> 
> my question would be though if the Project Ember would be an upgrade to my Matrix M-Stage with Hifiman HE-500?
> I've read so many positive things about the Vali amp from Schiit that i'm asking myself if the Ember can hold up to the Vali?
> Probably yes, or does it?


 

 The main difference is customization. You can get  tubes that, like the vali, will provide a neutral sound signature, or you can get tubes to tailor the sound to specific headphones. I use a tesla 12ax7 to tame the highs of music when using my HE-500's (heavily modded for better soundstage and resolution, but insufficient damping in most cases). Check the tube rolling thread for more details (can't remember where it is right now, sorry.).


----------



## amigastar

Ok sounds good,
  
 i never did tube rolling though, is it easy to roll tubes i.e just turn out the tube and replace with other, or does it require special finesse?
 Ok found the Ember tube rolling thread.


----------



## smitty1110

No special skills required, it's just like you said - Turn off, wait for the tube to cool off, swap, turn back on.


----------



## amigastar

Alright nice thx.
  
 so i probably get one in the next 2 months, i just hesitating because i already have an amp (matrix m-stage) but i suppose tube amps are something to be experienced by itself.


----------



## manbear

amigastar said:


> Nice Review,
> 
> my question would be though if the Project Ember would be an upgrade to my Matrix M-Stage with Hifiman HE-500?
> I've read so many positive things about the Vali amp from Schiit that i'm asking myself if the Ember can hold up to the Vali?
> Probably yes, or does it?


 
  
 I haven't heard either of those amps, but I can tell you that the Ember beats the pants off the Little Dot MK3 and the Emotiva Mini-X. 

 I'm sure the Vali is good for the price, but I wouldn't take the mass of positive reviews as indicating anything beyond the fact that Schiit is a popular brand. I considered getting a Vali instead of the Ember, I didn't, and I'm pretty happy. Concero to Ember is a killer combo.


----------



## amigastar

manbear said:


> I haven't heard either of those amps, but I can tell you that the Ember beats the pants off the Little Dot MK3 and the Emotiva Mini-X.
> 
> I'm sure the Vali is good for the price, but I wouldn't take the mass of positive reviews as indicating anything beyond the fact that Schiit is a popular brand. I considered getting a Vali instead of the Ember, I didn't, and I'm pretty happy. *Concero to Ember is a killer combo*.


 
 Mmh, sounds nice/promising.


----------



## ericr

FWIW, Schiit Bifrost Uber to Ember > Bifrost Uber to Asgard 2. With T90, HE-560 and 1964 Ears V6-Stage (all currently owned) - as well as T1 (had for a month) and Noble K10 (on loan for a few days).


----------



## kothganesh

My office set is Bifrost Uber --> Ember --> HD 800. Very very nice clean sound.


----------



## ericr

BTW, with it's low impedance setting (of .1 Ohms) and gobs of power in reserve, the Ember is stellar with multiple armature IEMs such as the K10 and V6-Stage - as well as the big cans using one of the higher impedance settings.


----------



## ericr

kothganesh said:


> My office set is Bifrost Uber --> Ember --> HD 800. Very very nice clean sound.




Nice! I would love.to hear the HD 800. Can you make it to the next Seattle meet?


----------



## kothganesh

ericr said:


> Nice! I would love.to hear the HD 800. Can you make it to the next Seattle meet?


 

 Unfortunately, I live in India. I'm dying to go to any meet...


----------



## jaxz

Hi. Anyone with Ember and the HE-560 can comment the pairing?


----------



## smitty1110

jaxz said:


> Hi. Anyone with Ember and the HE-560 can comment the pairing?


 

 It really comes down the the tube you use. When you bypass caps and use low gain mode, you get very transparent sound _so long as you have a good, transparent tube_. With respect to power, it drives my T1's, my former dt 990's (600 ohm), and my HE-500's without any problems so it should be able to drive your he-560's just fine.


----------



## ericr

The Ember is an excellent combo with my HE-560! Took them to work to share with a coworker with a pretty high end 2 channel system with Maggies and he loved the combo too.

The 560 seems best with the Ember's output impedance on the mid setting (35 Ohm, IIRC) while my 1964 V6-Stage CIEMs sing on the low setting (.1 Ohm). It's a very versatile amp, with plenty of power on tap.


----------



## No_One411

Has anybody used the Ember as a preamp?


----------



## richard51

no_one411 said:


> Has anybody used the Ember as a preamp?


 

 I use the Ember as preamp for my swan  m10 powered speakers.... the result are spectacular and has transformed  the swan in audiophile gear....I am in love with  the ember.... Beauty of the light, beauty of the open design, flexibility of the design, for the price this is  the best purchase i have ever made....best regards


----------



## No_One411

richard51 said:


> I use the Ember as preamp for my swan  m10 powered speakers.... the result are spectacular and has transformed  the swan in audiophile gear....I am in love with  the ember.... Beauty of the light, beauty of the open design, flexibility of the design, for the price this is  the best purchase i have ever made....best regards


 
 Great, thanks for the insight. That's really helpful.


----------



## smitty1110

richard51 said:


> I use the Ember as preamp for my swan  m10 powered speakers.... the result are spectacular and has transformed  the swan in audiophile gear....I am in love with  the ember.... Beauty of the light, beauty of the open design, flexibility of the design, for the price this is  the best purchase i have ever made....best regards



 
 Huh, that's interesting. What does the signal pass through when running in preamp mode? Does it actually go through the tube or something?


----------



## Thujone

I'm pretty sure the preamp acts as an alternative headphone jack, essentially. I could be wrong though, I haven't checked the circuit.
  
 I remember playing around with the preamp a year ago and the pot adjusts the volume just as it does on the jack.


----------



## smitty1110

thujone said:


> I'm pretty sure the preamp acts as an alternative headphone jack, essentially. I could be wrong though, I haven't checked the circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 
IF that's the case then I'm certainly going to keep it around after I get my Ragnarok, the ability to shape the sound with tubes will ber useful for some of my more unruly cans.


----------



## No_One411

smitty1110 said:


> thujone said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure the preamp acts as an alternative headphone jack, essentially. I could be wrong though, I haven't checked the circuit.
> ...


 
 It's described as a tube controlled buffer, so I imagine that it would function exactly as you would like it to. 
  
 That's why I'm getting more interested in the Ember. It's very flexible in that it can drive virtually any non-electrostat, and can also function as a preamp.


----------



## richard51

Without that preamp function my Swan M10 will not shine..... that its more precious to me than the headphone amp function.... I can adjust the settings ( output resistence and gain) especially tailored for the Swan powered speakers and Wow! i have a gear now that cost me almost nothing and that give me a detailed and harmonious  audiophile sound better than my He 400.... The ratio quality price with the paitring Ember/Swan M10 is extraordinary.....less than 500 hundred dollars .
 Best regards


----------



## richard51

Post-scriptum:
  
 Its relatively easy with money to create an audiophile quality system.... I am very satisfied  now and no more envious with the Ember/Swan Pairing and the He 400and the superb Morrow cable for inteconnect with the Bushmaster....My goal is reached...


----------



## richard51

smitty1110 said:


> richard51 said:
> 
> 
> > I use the Ember as preamp for my swan  m10 powered speakers.... the result are spectacular and has transformed  the swan in audiophile gear....I am in love with  the ember.... Beauty of the light, beauty of the open design, flexibility of the design, for the price this is  the best purchase i have ever made....best regards
> ...


 

 The signal go through a Morrow interconnect to the Gainclone amp of the Swan Speakers....


----------



## smitty1110

richard51 said:


> The signal go through a Morrow interconnect to the Gainclone amp of the Swan Speakers....


 

 I was musing about the signal path on the Project Ember PCB, but that's also some valuable information as well


----------



## richard51

smitty1110 said:


> I was musing about the signal path on the Project Ember PCB, but that's also some valuable information as well


 

 i am sorry but i dont know for the signal path inside the Ember....


----------



## smitty1110

Now worries, I didn't really expect anyone to have traced out the path on a multi-level pcb, and your glowing review of the Swan speakers is very interesting to me, since I'm in the market myself. I've got a Schiit Ragnarok on order, so I've got 100 wpc of power to play with, so I'm paying a lot of attention to speakers ATM.


----------



## richard51

smitty1110 said:


> Now worries, I didn't really expect anyone to have traced out the path on a multi-level pcb, and your glowing review of the Swan speakers is very interesting to me, since I'm in the market myself. I've got a Schiit Ragnarok on order, so I've got 100 wpc of power to play with, so I'm paying a lot of attention to speakers ATM.


 

 My glowing review of the Swan M10 speakers is for the "poor" audiophile.... If you can afford  the Ragnarok i will say to you :Go to The Mini Maggies of Magnepan.... between Swan at 100 dollars and the mini Maggies at more than a thousand i think its no use to look for other speakers....  For 100 dollars  nothing can touch the swan  pure musicality and if i go for more i want the mini magneplanar.... I had listen to magneplanar its awesome for music lover...I have decided to look for nothing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




other than one of these two desktop speakers.....


----------



## smitty1110

richard51 said:


> My glowing review of the Swan M10 speakers is for the "poor" audiophile.... If you can afford  the Ragnarok i will say to you :Go to The Mini Maggies of Magnepan.... between Swan at 100 dollars and the mini Maggies at more than a thousand i think its no use to look for other speakers....  For 100 dollars  nothing can touch the swan  pure musicality and if i go for more i want the mini magneplanar.... I had listen to magneplanar its awesome for music lover...I have decided to look for nothing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I've been looking at the mini maggies, but it's best to consider all options before committing to a huge purchase*. Really it's between them and a Hsu Research system, though I might get a SVS or Hsu subwoofer to go wit hthe minis if I go that route. Most people seem to agree that the DWM bass panel with the maggies is underwhelming.
  
 Anyway, I'm really glad that the pre outs go through the tube stage, since I have some *heavily* modded he-500's that require a nice tube to tame the treble. They are really fatiguing if you don't, but the soundstage is truly remarkable if you round off the highs. Almost as good as the gs-1000 soundstage, which is the best one I have ATM.
  
 *unless it's really nice headphones, I'm a sucker for TOTL headphones.


----------



## richard51

smitty1110 said:


> I've been looking at the mini maggies, but it's best to consider all options before committing to a huge purchase*. Really it's between them and a Hsu Research system, though I might get a SVS or Hsu subwoofer to go wit hthe minis if I go that route. Most people seem to agree that the DWM bass panel with the maggies is underwhelming.
> 
> Anyway, I'm really glad that the pre outs go through the tube stage, since I have some *heavily* modded he-500's that require a nice tube to tame the treble. They are really fatiguing if you don't, but the soundstage is truly remarkable if you round off the highs. Almost as good as the gs-1000 soundstage, which is the best one I have ATM.
> 
> *unless it's really nice headphones, I'm a sucker for TOTL headphones.


 

 ok i understand...i will wait 3 years for this purchase of the maggies........The Swan now is very perfect for my taste....so much so that i dont want anything less than the maggies next time....best regards to you


----------



## Thujone

Regarding the Ember's preamp output: I talked with Jeremy and he told me that the preamp is in fact connected directly to the headphone output stage, only the output level has been lowered.
  
 (Anything plugged into the preamp is passing through the tube)


----------



## smitty1110

thujone said:


> Regarding the Ember's preamp output: I talked with Jeremy and he told me that the preamp is in fact connected directly to the headphone output stage, only the output level has been lowered.
> 
> (Anything plugged into the preamp is passing through the tube)


 

 Awesome, now I just need Jeremy to build a balanced version so I can stick it between the balanced dac I'm planning on buying, and the balanced amp that's on order


----------



## richbass

Did anyone try it with HE-6 yet? Is this better than the LYR 2 ?


----------



## smitty1110

I lurk on too many Ember thread on too many forums to remember where it was, but somebody did try He-6's with the Ember and liked the result. I can tell you that the amp has plenty of power to drive the HE-6's, and that because of the tube rolling options you will almost certainly find something over in the tube rolling thread about what might be a good paring with those cans.
  
 As to the Lyr 2, no clue.


----------



## money4me247

smitty1110 said:


> I lurk on too many Ember thread on too many forums to remember where it was, but somebody did try He-6's with the Ember and liked the result. I can tell you that the amp has plenty of power to drive the HE-6's, and that because of the tube rolling options you will almost certainly find something over in the tube rolling thread about what might be a good paring with those cans.
> 
> As to the Lyr 2, no clue.


 
 Lyr 2 (4W/channel RMS) outputs more power than the Ember (2.4W/channel RMS) at 50 ohms. The Lyr 2 should certainly be sufficient in terms of power if Ember works with the HE-6. Note it is much easier to roll tubes on the Ember as it does not require a set of matched tubes and the design allows for easier accessibility to the tubes for swapping.
  
 edit 1: I was picking between these two amps a few weeks ago and I think it really just comes down to whether you want to roll a lot of tubes. Only needing one tube to roll means you can double your tube collection at the same price.


----------



## Thujone

Ember also has a few more options that the Lyr 2 doesn't have: bypass caps, adjustable output impedance, and tube auto-biasing (allowing you to use a very large list of tubes).
  
 I'm sure the Lyr 2 is great though, I'd love to do a comparison one day.


----------



## money4me247

thujone said:


> Ember also has a few more options that the Lyr 2 doesn't have: bypass caps, adjustable output impedance, and tube auto-biasing (allowing you to use a very large list of tubes).
> 
> I'm sure the Lyr 2 is great though, I'd love to do a comparison one day.


 
 Lyr 2 has adjustable output impedance as well now with a low/high gain switch. Auto-biasing feature is unique to the Ember at this price range (from my knowledge). I think that Ember would definitely be the better option for people interested in tube rolling.
  
 Not sure what bypass caps are, so looked it up. removes AC noise, omg that is pretty sweet. my lyr 2 did have trouble with noise from my laptop ac adapter, but problem was fixed by swapping out power cords. That is a very thoughtful feature.
  
 The ember seems really great to me & I went back-and-forth forever with my decision. The design of the ember is quite beautiful. I would also love to do a comparison someday.


----------



## Thujone

Are you sure the adjustable gain on the Lyr 2 adjusts the output impedance? Ember has output impedance switching as well as adjustable gain, they are two different things.


----------



## money4me247

thujone said:


> Are you sure the adjustable gain on the Lyr 2 adjusts the output impedance? Ember has output impedance switching as well as adjustable gain, they are two different things.


 
 I am not sure what you mean. The changing the output impedance inherently changes the gain. The lyr 2 has a high gain (of 16.9db) & low gain (of 0 db) setting with corresponding to 0.7 ohm & 0.3 ohm output impedance respectively. As for a separate specific gain control knob, the Lyr 2 does not have that.
  
 Since excessive gain is generally considered to be detrimental to sonic performance & gain does not affect the dynamic range or improve sound quality, I just leave my gain settings on low even with my HE-560s since I can reach acceptable listening volumes. From my understanding of the topic, gain simply affects the loudness.


----------



## Thujone

Oh, I see. Lyr 2's gain adjustment does adjust the output impedance. I understand that the change in impedance will change the output power level but is this the same as gain? Ember has a separate switch for the gain adjustment that, if I understand it correctly, changes the gain without changing the output impedance. I could be wrong though...


----------



## richbass

Guys, What is tube auto-biasing?


----------



## Thujone

Most tube amps have a set "bias" which tells the amp how much current to feed the tube, based on the voltage of the tube. If the current is too high, the tube will burn out; if it's too low there can be distortion issues. You need to find a happy medium for the types of tubes you'll be using in the amp.
  
 Ember has an auto-bias which means that it will adjust its tube current input based on the voltage of the tube. Turn it off, switch tubes, turn it back on and it will figure it out. In basic terms it allows you to use many different tubes.


----------



## richbass

Does Ember put out more than 2W @ 50 ohms?


----------



## money4me247

richbass said:


> Does Ember put out more than 2W @ 50 ohms?


 
 yes. 2.4W/channel RMS at 50 ohms


----------



## richbass

money4me247 said:


> yes. 2.4W/channel RMS at 50 ohms


 

 And how much @ 300 and 600 ohms ?


----------



## money4me247

richbass said:


> And how much @ 300 and 600 ohms ?


 
 http://www.garage1217.com/POWERSPECS/Ember.png


----------



## richbass

money4me247 said:


> http://www.garage1217.com/POWERSPECS/Ember.png


 

 So its a bit less @ 300/600 ohms than Valhalla 2. Hmmmm...I was considering the Valhalla 2 for headphones around 250-600ohms like Senn. HD800. I have ruled out the LYR 2 because its a Hybrid, Is Ember an OTL amp ?


----------



## money4me247

richbass said:


> So its a bit less @ 300/600 ohms than Valhalla 2. Hmmmm...I was considering the Valhalla 2 for headphones around 250-600ohms like Senn. HD800. I have ruled out the LYR 2 because its a Hybrid, Is Ember an OTL amp ?


 
  
 No, it is a hybrid tube amplifier.


----------



## richbass

money4me247 said:


> No, it is a hybrid tube amplifier.


 
 Oh. Same as LYR 2 then. Which one is a better value amp ? LYR or Ember ? Also, How is Valhalla 2 (non hybrid) ? How is it different than Ember ?


----------



## money4me247

richbass said:


> Oh. Same as LYR 2 then. Which one is a better value amp ? LYR or Ember ? Also, How is Valhalla 2 (non hybrid) ? How is it different than Ember ?




dont think many ppl have owned all three. from reviews, ember & lyr 2 seem to have similar very highly rated performance so both wld b a good value. ember is a bit cheaper if u have budget concerns. ember offers more flexibilty when rolling tubes. i have the lyr 2 which i greatly enjoy w the he560. dont think u wld b unhappy w either tho & performance reviewed by ppl w both appear very similar. icannot comment on the valhalla as i dont kno anything abt it.


----------



## richbass

money4me247 said:


> dont think many ppl have owned all three. from reviews, ember & lyr 2 seem to have similar very highly rated performance so both wld b a good value. ember is a bit cheaper if u have budget concerns. ember offers more flexibilty when rolling tubes. i have the lyr 2 which i greatly enjoy w the he560. dont think u wld b unhappy w either tho & performance reviewed by ppl w both appear very similar. icannot comment on the valhalla as i dont kno anything abt it.


 
 So if i use the lyr 2 with say a fostex can (600/900) then i need to use low gain because lyr 2 has insane power output !!??


----------



## Thujone

Ember vs. Lyr 2: up to you.
  
 Ember/Lyr 2 vs. Valhalla 2: if you only plan on driving 300 ohm Senns or 250-600 ohm Beyers, etc. get the Valhalla 2. If you have any orthos, you may want to consider the Ember/Lyr 2.


----------



## manbear

richbass said:


> So if i use the lyr 2 with say a fostex can (600/900) then i need to use low gain because lyr 2 has insane power output !!??


 


 Probably. I use low gain on the Ember with everything. Is using low gain a problem for you?


----------



## money4me247

thujone said:


> Ember vs. Lyr 2: up to you.
> 
> Ember/Lyr 2 vs. Valhalla 2: if you only plan on driving 300 ohm Senns or 250-600 ohm Beyers, etc. get the Valhalla 2. If you have any orthos, you may want to consider the Ember/Lyr 2.


 
 +1 good recommendation


----------



## richbass

money4me247 said:


> +1 good recommendation


 
  
  


thujone said:


> Ember vs. Lyr 2: up to you.
> 
> Ember/Lyr 2 vs. Valhalla 2: if you only plan on driving 300 ohm Senns or 250-600 ohm Beyers, etc. get the Valhalla 2. If you have any orthos, you may want to consider the Ember/Lyr 2.


 
  
 I think the Ember is a better all rounder. It offers more flexibility as It can also drive 300/250-600 ohm cans better than LYR and about the same as Valhalla ! Do you agree ?


----------



## money4me247

richbass said:


> I think the Ember is a better all rounder. It offers more flexibility as It can also drive 300/250-600 ohm cans better than LYR and about the same as Valhalla ! Do you agree ?


 
 ember does offer more flexibility for tube rolling.
  
 not sure why you think ember drives 300+ ohm headphones better than the Lyr or why the Valhalla is better than both. lookin at their specs, they all seem to output a very similar amount of power at higher impedance.
  
 Valhalla 2: 300 ohms 800mW, 600 ohms: 450mW
 Lyr 2: 300 ohms: 660mW, 600 ohms: 330mW.
 Ember: 300 ohms 400-700mW, 600 ohms 200-400mW
  
 I use the lyr 2 on low gain w/ my orthodynamic he-560 btw. what headphones do you currently have?


----------



## richbass

money4me247 said:


> ember does offer more flexibility for tube rolling.
> 
> not sure why you think ember drives 300+ ohm headphones better than the Lyr or why the Valhalla is better than both. lookin at their specs, they all seem to output a very similar amount of power at higher impedance.
> 
> ...


 

 I think that the Valhalla drives 300+ ohm headphones better than the Lyr because of various impressions that i read on head-fi. People liked hd800 and beyers more so on valhalla than lyr after listening via both. everyone liked lyr better for orthos. But i choose ember because its cheaper and offer more flexibility than either V2 or LYR2 and also because of the multi power output which means that it should be good with orthos too. maybe not that good with HE-6.


----------



## money4me247

richbass said:


> I think that the Valhalla drives 300+ ohm headphones better than the Lyr because of various impressions that i read on head-fi. People liked hd800 and beyers more so on valhalla than lyr after listening via both. everyone liked lyr better for orthos. But i choose ember because its cheaper and offer more flexibility than either V2 or LYR2 and also because of the multi power output which means that it should be good with orthos too. maybe not that good with HE-6.


 
 glad you made your choice.
  
 I would take impressions in general with a grain of salt as everyone has different preferences.
  
 just fyi, i think it would be a mistake to purchase an amplifier first for headphones you do not currently own. it is usually wiser to get the headphones first & then get an amplifier that suits it.


----------



## Thujone

The Valhalla 2 will probably blow the Lyr 2 and Ember out of the water for high impedance dynamic headphones. I haven't tried the HD800's on too many amps but I have had enough experience with it to know that I was most impressed with the Valhalla (1). It's hard to explain, and I hate to be another broken record, but the scalability of the HD800/600/650 is truly impressive. Ember does a fine job as well but I still don't prefer it in the end.
  
 A friend of mine has a Crack + Speedball and I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite between it and Ember when it comes to these high ohm dynamic headphones. Still prefer the Valhalla though.
  
 Additionally, I've had the chance to try my HE-4's on many different amps (though not the Lyr or Lyr 2, unfortunately) and Ember came out on top, even against Oppo's HA-1. Ember has a great sense of space and resolution.
  
 Finally, don't get hung up on the power stuff. The Lyr 2 and Ember will be able to drive anything on the market, aside from stats, including the K1000 and HE-6. Valhalla 2 will struggle a bit with certain orthos but have no issues with dynamics.


----------



## manbear

thujone said:


> Finally, don't get hung up on the power stuff. The Lyr 2 and Ember will be able to drive anything on the market, aside from stats, including the K1000 and HE-6. Valhalla 2 will struggle a bit with certain orthos but have no issues with dynamics.




Agree. The exact power specs are not very important.


----------



## richbass

thujone said:


> The Valhalla 2 will probably blow the Lyr 2 and Ember out of the water for high impedance dynamic headphones. I haven't tried the HD800's on too many amps but I have had enough experience with it to know that I was most impressed with the Valhalla (1). It's hard to explain, and I hate to be another broken record, but the scalability of the HD800/600/650 is truly impressive. Ember does a fine job as well but I still don't prefer it in the end.
> 
> A friend of mine has a Crack + Speedball and I'd be hard pressed to pick a favorite between it and Ember when it comes to these high ohm dynamic headphones. Still prefer the Valhalla though.
> 
> ...


 

 Hmm...High Z dynamic headphones above 250 ohms ? or above 300 ?


----------



## smitty1110

richbass said:


> Hmm...High Z dynamic headphones above 250 ohms ? or above 300 ?


 
 Generally 250 Ohms is the cutoff for "high impedance", though it's sorta arbitrary. Different people/manufacturers quote different numbers.


----------



## Thujone

I don't mean to make impedance sound like it's a determining factor, because it isn't. What I'm getting at is these OTL tend amps do exceptionally well, or "specialize", with higher impedance headphones (250+ ohm, generally) when compared to other amps.
  
 Looking at the numbers (power, impedance, etc.) won't do a very good job explaining the synergy, you just have to hear it for yourself. If you want an amp that is well rounded and will have no issue powering any headphone, ortho or otherwise, the Valhalla 2 simply isn't the best choice. It is however a great choice if you only plan on using dynamic headphones.


----------



## smitty1110

thujone said:


> Looking at the numbers (power, impedance, etc.) won't do a very good job explaining the synergy, you just have to hear it for yourself.


 

 Agreed, synergy between components can be really surprising, and it's almost always down to personal preference.


----------



## elvergun

money4me247 said:


> I would take impressions in general *with a grain of salt* as everyone has different preferences.


 
  
 Haha...specially here in Head-fi.   
  
 I've seen some members hype some products to no end, only to sell them a couple of weeks later so they can move on to the next FOTM.   When you ask them about the product they just sold, they will say something like, "yeah, product A is okay, but my new product B is a giant killer.  A giant killer, I tell you".   A month later product C replaces product B...and so on, and so on.
  
 Gotta love it!!!


----------



## money4me247

elvergun said:


> Haha...specially here in Head-fi.
> 
> I've seen some members hype some products to no end, only to sell them a couple of weeks later so they can move on to the next FOTM.   When you ask them about the product they just sold, they will say something like, "yeah, product A is okay, but my new product B is a giant killer.  A giant killer, I tell you".   A month later product C replaces product B...and so on, and so on.
> 
> Gotta love it!!!


 
 +1000. the hype gets ridiculous sometimes & it is definitely interesting how some members here don't seem to be able to review objectively.


----------



## richbass

money4me247 said:


> +1000. the hype gets ridiculous sometimes & it is definitely interesting how some members here don't seem to be able to review objectively.


 
  


elvergun said:


> Haha...specially here in Head-fi.
> 
> I've seen some members hype some products to no end, only to sell them a couple of weeks later so they can move on to the next FOTM.   When you ask them about the product they just sold, they will say something like, "yeah, product A is okay, but my new product B is a giant killer.  A giant killer, I tell you".   A month later product C replaces product B...and so on, and so on.
> 
> Gotta love it!!!


 
  
 HAhaha yes but then what do we do ? Who's impressions do we trust ? How do we decide what to buy ?


----------



## elvergun

richbass said:


> HAhaha yes but then what do we do ? Who's impressions do we trust ? How do we decide what to buy ?


 
  
 Well, you can always find a couple of members here and there who seem to have the same tastes and preferences and you trust their impressions.  Inversely, you also learn who not to trust.   You usually can't trust noobs (they get exited by anything that is half decent...we were all the same when we found this site)...but you can always trust Tyll, Joker and Project86.   And you never, ever trust anything anyone says in one of the hype threads (unless you go in there knowing and willing to participate in the madness 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## money4me247

elvergun said:


> Well, you can always find a couple of members here and there who seem to have the same tastes and preferences and you trust their impressions.  Inversely, you also learn who not to trust.   You usually can't trust noobs (they get exited by anything that is half decent...we were all the same when we found this site)...but you can always trust Tyll, Joker and Project86.   And you never, ever trust anything anyone says in one of the hype threads (unless you go in there knowing and willing to participate in the madness  ).




hahah +1 hype threads is rly full of... well, hype. i also wldnt trust totally positive reviews without any negative feedback as those r usually just ppl super xcited abt their new headphones. give it a few weeks they r raving abt another pair.


----------



## Stillhart

I read the last few pages of this thread and the final posts here have been very amusing.  I was just thinking to myself, "Man there's a lot of hype in this thread.  If you believe everything written in here, this is the best amp ever made and it has NO drawbacks!  I should look in other threads for more objective feedback on this amp."
  
 Frankly though, my options for similar amps in this price range are pretty limited.  Ember, Lyr, EF-5 and that's about it.  Between those three, the Ember does seem to be the clear choice to me since the amps are all about the same (none have any clear drawbacks) and the Ember is the cheapest.


----------



## smitty1110

Well, from my perspective only problems from my perspective is that it doesn't drive speakers, and you need an adapter for octal tubes. The tube-rolling helps with tailoring the sound signature, and with the tube options available you can find a tube for just about any situation. There are downsides, they're just not that relevant for what most people interested i the ember want.


----------



## Stillhart

I'm going to cross post this:
  
 Is there anyone here who has (or has had) both the Project Ember and the EF-5?  I'm curious how the two compare directly.


----------



## russdog

stillhart said:


> I read the last few pages of this thread and the final posts here have been very amusing.  I was just thinking to myself, "Man there's a lot of hype in this thread.  If you believe everything written in here, this is the best amp ever made and it has NO drawbacks!  I should look in other threads for more objective feedback on this amp."


 
  
 Good point.  Since it's not the best amp ever made, how much would one have to spend to get a tube amp that's clearly better?  And what amp would that be?  Please don't respond with mumble-mumble about how it depends on my preferences... because I'm not spending more to get something better, I'm just curious what people think, that's all.  
  
 So whatcha think?  What's the next step up in clearly-better amps?


----------



## smitty1110

russdog said:


> Good point.  Since it's not the best amp ever made, how much would one have to spend to get a tube amp that's clearly better?  And what amp would that be?  Please don't respond with mumble-mumble about how it depends on my preferences... because I'm not spending more to get something better, I'm just curious what people think, that's all.
> 
> So whatcha think?  What's the next step up in clearly-better amps?


 

 My Mainline and Ragnarok beat the ember. I expect the bijou I'm trying to buy will beat it, especially with the upgrades I have in mind for it. They just don't compare well with the ember because they price is a lot higher.


----------



## Stillhart

For the record, I picked up an Ember and I'm really liking it with certain headphones.  Ironically, I got it to use with the HE-4 and I just don't like the tube sound with that headphone (I got it with 4 tubes to try and they all kinda ruined what I like about the HE-4).  But it sounds amazing with the HD650 and the Q701 (using the Amperex 6DJ8).  Of course, I don't need the raw power of the Ember with those headphones, but I'll survive.  :-D
  
 I don't feel the need to move up to something better right now.  Maybe I'll hear something mind-blowing at the SoCal CanJam in March.  Until then, I'm good.


----------



## Levaix

Just heard one of these last Friday, and I really liked it! It was hard to judge in a room with other people talking, but it sounded very musical with good soundstage. BUT... The bass extension and control just weren't there compared to my Purity Audio KICAS. It was using an HP-branded Amperex, but I'm not sure which one. Can't remember if I was listening to my Ultrasone Sig Pros or ZMF Blackwood.
  
 Anyone have any luck with different tubes tightening up the bass? Amperex tubes usually aren't slouches in general, so I guess I'm not holding out too much hope, lol.


----------



## smitty1110

levaix said:


> Just heard one of these last Friday, and I really liked it! It was hard to judge in a room with other people talking, but it sounded very musical with good soundstage. BUT... The bass extension and control just weren't there compared to my Purity Audio KICAS. It was using an HP-branded Amperex, but I'm not sure which one. Can't remember if I was listening to my Ultrasone Sig Pros or ZMF Blackwood.
> 
> Anyone have any luck with different tubes tightening up the bass? Amperex tubes usually aren't slouches in general, so I guess I'm not holding out too much hope, lol.


 

 I'll have to get back to you on that, I need to go though my tubes again. I've been a bit caught up with my newer amps recently.


----------



## Levaix

smitty1110 said:


> I'll have to get back to you on that, I need to go though my tubes again. I've been a bit caught up with my newer amps recently.


 
 Thanks, appreciate it! Like I said, my hopes aren't too high. The KICAS is just proving itself to be a beast, lol. What I'd REALLY like is this amp, with a more musical tube sound, and even better soundstage. Yeah, pipe dream, I know.


----------



## ericr

levaix said:


> Just heard one of these last Friday, and I really liked it! It was hard to judge in a room with other people talking, but it sounded very musical with good soundstage. BUT... The bass extension and control just weren't there compared to my Purity Audio KICAS. It was using an HP-branded Amperex, but I'm not sure which one. Can't remember if I was listening to my Ultrasone Sig Pros or ZMF Blackwood.
> 
> Anyone have any luck with different tubes tightening up the bass? Amperex tubes usually aren't slouches in general, so I guess I'm not holding out too much hope, lol.




What headphones were you using - and did you adjust the impedance on the Ember appropriately?


----------



## Levaix

ericr said:


> What headphones were you using - and did you adjust the impedance on the Ember appropriately?


 
 As I said, I don't remember if it was with my Sig Pros or the ZMF Blackwoods. I didn't fiddle around with the settings at all.


----------



## iancraig10

levaix said:


> Just heard one of these last Friday, and I really liked it! It was hard to judge in a room with other people talking, but it sounded very musical with good soundstage. BUT... The bass extension and control just weren't there compared to my Purity Audio KICAS. It was using an HP-branded Amperex, but I'm not sure which one. Can't remember if I was listening to my Ultrasone Sig Pros or ZMF Blackwood.
> 
> Anyone have any luck with different tubes tightening up the bass? Amperex tubes usually aren't slouches in general, so I guess I'm not holding out too much hope, lol.




6n23eb gives more bass attack. I use Orange Globe tube. I don't find the bass lacking and graphs show that it does go down deep.

Maybe play around with the settings?


----------



## manbear

It was an Amperex 12au7 from 1969. Settings were low impedance, low gain, caps not bypassed. 

As for the bass, it doesnt quite have the control/slam of a good SS amp I agree. But I was messing around in Sinegen over the weekend and the Ember/Vibro definitely extends all the way down to 21hz or so. There is some rolloff in volume but its all there. 

I found the kicas to be a much better match for the ultrasones than the Ember, but I didnt get a chance to hear the vibros through the kicas.


----------



## Levaix

manbear said:


> It was an Amperex 12au7 from 1969. Settings were low impedance, low gain, caps not bypassed.
> 
> As for the bass, it doesnt quite have the control/slam of a good SS amp I agree. But I was messing around in Sinegen over the weekend and the Ember/Vibro definitely extends all the way down to 21hz or so. There is some rolloff in volume but its all there.
> 
> I found the kicas to be a much better match for the ultrasones than the Ember, but I didnt get a chance to hear the vibros through the kicas.


 
 Nice, I didn't know your handle on here! haha
  
 The bass doesn't go (quite) as deep with the Blackwoods. I'm assuming frequency range is fairly similar to the Vibros.
  
 I have heard a couple times now bass is better with the 6dj8/6922 tubes. So... if I come over again, remind me to bring my roommate's Amperex 7308.


----------



## smitty1110

so, went back through my tubes while working from home, best result so far is the Tesla ECC802S. the downside is that it rolls off the highs.


----------



## manbear

levaix said:


> I have heard a couple times now bass is better with the 6dj8/6922 tubes. So... if I come over again, remind me to bring my roommate's Amperex 7308. :wink_face:




Interesting. I also have an Amperex 6dj8 orange globe--I'll try listening and see if the bass is any different. The HP tube I've been using is definitely on the soft side. I like it because it's musical and opens up the soundstage. 

I also have a Tung Sol (forget the exact model) that has the best bass of all my tubes IMO but I dont listen to it as much because it's a little bright for me.


----------



## Levaix

Honestly I probably just hate my wallet and am looking for an excuse to buy this and a Telefunken E88CC. lol


----------



## oopeteroo

is ember or bottle head crack better for hd650/600?


----------



## Stillhart

oopeteroo said:


> is ember or bottle head crack better for hd650/600?


 
  
 I've never heard the Crack, but the Ember sounds pretty damn good with the HD650.  Like REALLY good.


----------



## Thujone

oopeteroo said:


> is ember or bottle head crack better for hd650/600?


 
  
 Honestly, I'd put them in the same ballpark. I have an Ember and a friend has the Crack... can't say that I would choose one over the other.


----------



## Siba

How does it compare to a lyr2/asgard2/little dot mk iv se?
  
 edit: will be using hd650 as well


----------



## money4me247

siba said:


> How does it compare to a lyr2/asgard2/little dot mk iv se?
> 
> edit: will be using hd650 as well


 
 most similar to the lyr 2 I think. basically, project ember is easier to tube roll, works with more varieties of tubes, auto-biasing for tubes, & a few other random features, and cheaper. lyr 2 has a bit more power. However, both project ember and lyr 2 provides wayyyy more than enough power for something like the hd650. those two amplifiers can drive difficult to drive high impedance orthodynamic headphones.


----------



## manbear

siba said:


> How does it compare to a lyr2/asgard2/little dot mk iv se?
> 
> edit: will be using hd650 as well


 


 I used to own a little dot mkIII so not quite the same thing, but... The Ember is cleaner, faster, more open sounding. The little dot has more of a warm, thick sound. The Ember also has way more power but for the HD650 that's not an issue either way. Tube rolling for the Ember is also cheaper because you only need one tube. No matched pairs, no power tubes.


----------



## RedBull

Not many people have both Ember and Lyr it seems. Very hard to get some sound comparisons.


----------



## RedBull

thujone said:


> Honestly, I'd put them in the same ballpark. I have an Ember and a friend has the Crack... can't say that I would choose one over the other.




If we are not taking about which one is 'better' how would you say signature wise between ember and crack?


----------



## Thujone

redbull said:


> If we are not taking about which one is 'better' how would you say signature wise between ember and crack?


 
 I don't think I could tell the difference in a blind test, they're that similar. Both are punchy with very accurate treble. They're also both fairly intimate, not super spacious.
  
 The Ember owns in terms of versatility though.


----------



## SuperU

How about the difference between the amber and the Asgard 2? (I've got the Asgard 2)
  
 Is the bass better with the Ember? 
  
 I realize this is largely dependant on the tube used. 
  
 I will be using it with a Bifrost Uber and Mad Dog Pro headphones.
  
 Just can't tell if I'd be better off with the Ember or the Lyr 2.
  
 What I want is a bigger sound stage, more 3d. Sometimes my system sounds a bit veiled. Hoping maybe the Ember would give me that.


----------



## ericr

superu said:


> How about the difference between the amber and the Asgard 2? (I've got the Asgard 2)
> 
> Is the bass better with the Ember?
> I realize this is largely dependant on the tube used.
> ...


----------



## SuperU

Great info, ericr. 
  
 What is the biggest difference you hear between the Asgard 2 and the Ember?
  
 Got any good suggestions for tubes that will rock the Alpha Prime with the Ember?


----------



## RedBull

thujone said:


> I don't think I could tell the difference in a blind test, they're that similar. Both are punchy with very accurate treble. They're also both fairly intimate, not super spacious.
> 
> The Ember owns in terms of versatility though.




Thanks.


----------



## SuperU

redbull said:


> Thanks.


 
 Was hoping you'd tell me there is more of a difference.
  
 Do you pick up any noise with the Ember?
  
 I sometimes am feeling like it is more of a lateral step to go from the Asgard 2 to the Ember. Yes, I can roll tubes but don't think it will make huge differences. 
  
 Maybe I need to go to the Mjolnir to get a step up. So difficult to decide. I really wish I had bought the Ember instead of the Asgard 2 in a way. Now am stuck. As in I would hate to do a lateral move and really want to take a nice step up. Maybe there is no clear step up and it will only improve by a small amount while the price jumps hugely.


----------



## money4me247

superu said:


> Was hoping you'd tell me there is more of a difference.
> 
> Do you pick up any noise with the Ember?
> 
> ...




The purpose of amplifiers is just to provide enough power to your headphones so that they reach their full potential & play at an adequate volume. if ur headphones is already receiving adequate power from a well-designed amplifier, it can't actually scale up anymore so there wont really be that significant of a difference spending more money on amplifiers. of course, some amplifiers have unique colorations that can make them sound different, but thats more a preference thing than a true upgrade.

my advice to you is to spend more money on your headphones rather than the amplifier as headphones have the greatest impact on sound quality.


----------



## Levaix

money4me247 said:


> *The purpose of amplifiers is just to provide enough power to your headphones so that they reach their full potential & play at an adequate volume.* if ur headphones is already receiving adequate power from a well-designed amplifier, it can't actually scale up anymore so there wont really be that significant of a difference spending more money on amplifiers. of course, some amplifiers have unique colorations that can make them sound different, but thats more a preference thing than a true upgrade.
> 
> my advice to you is to spend more money on your headphones rather than the amplifier as headphones have the greatest impact on sound quality.


 
 That's not really 100% accurate, though, at least not the implication that a can's full potential is reached if it sounds loud enough. If that were the case 99% of amps would be completely redundant. Actually, a headphone can get plenty loud and still be nowhere near its potential. From personal experience, an obvious example is my Ultrasone Signature Pro. When I first got it I couldn't imagine it would sound any better out of a better system. However, running these from a better amp increases detail, soundstage, impact, and bass/treble extension. It's scary how much better these sound on my desktop setup compared to my (plenty loud) smartphone, and that's not even counting the subjective elements like presentation and musicality. Granted, Sig Pros are a fairly extreme example, but they're also not a major outlier in a world with the HD800 and HE-6.


----------



## money4me247

levaix said:


> That's not really 100% accurate, though, at least not the implication that a can's full potential is reached if it sounds loud enough. If that were the case 99% of amps would be completely redundant. Actually, a headphone can get plenty loud and still be nowhere near its potential. From personal experience, an obvious example is my Ultrasone Signature Pro. When I first got it I couldn't imagine it would sound any better out of a better system. However, running these from a better amp increases detail, soundstage, impact, and bass/treble extension. It's scary how much better these sound on my desktop setup compared to my (plenty loud) smartphone, and that's not even counting the subjective elements like presentation and musicality. Granted, Sig Pros are a fairly extreme example, but they're also not a major outlier in a world with the HD800 and HE-6.




I disagree. I did not mean if that a headphone's potential is reached if the volume is adequate.

What I mean is that a well-built amplifier that provides an adequate amount of power for a specific headphones will sound extremely similar to other amplifiers if the amplifiers being compared are striving for a uncolored reproduction.

there is a concept known as audio transparency. When certain standards are met with equipment, the human ear cannot resolve the differences. Any two amplifiers with high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, and sufficiently low distortion and noise will sound exactly the same at matched levels if not clipped.

the purpose of amplifiers is to amplify volume... not change the frequency response or improve sound quality. if there are sound quality improvements with an amplifer, that is the result of underpowered headphone drivers acheiving adequate power.

Comparision between unamped & amped is not what I am talking about. I am talking abt the severe diminishing returns between upgrading your amplifer, providing that your amplifier is already striving to be transparent. of course, there are tube amplifiers that intentionally color the sound with harmonic distortion, but that is simply a preference thing rather than a true sonic upgrade.

Finally, non-blinded, non-volume matched comparision tests are very suspect to confirmation bias & the natural effect of louder sounds being perceived as higher quality (the Fletcher Munson Effect).


----------



## Levaix

money4me247 said:


> I disagree. I did not mean if that a headphone's potential is reached if the volume is adequate.
> 
> What I mean is that a well-built amplifier that provides an adequate amount of power for a specific headphones will sound extremely similar to other amplifiers if the amplifiers being compared are striving for a uncolored reproduction.
> 
> ...


 
 I guess my first question is this: How _exactly_ do you know if a headphone's potential has been achieved? Are we just going by math based on the impedance of the headphone and the power of the amp? If that's the case, I'll disagree with you all day. My aforementioned Sig Pros are only 32 ohms, and I would bet you good money that I could tell if they were plugged into an Ember or my KICAS in a blind test. Hypothetically they both provide more than enough power, right? And yet the bass extension and speed is much better on my KICAS. That's not considering the "subjective" musical sound that I appreciated when I heard the Ember. Even if we found the most neutral tube possible for Ember and switched off the "Caliente" jumpers on the KICAS, I'd still be confident to pass the test.
  
 You sound like we're all living in a purely hypothetical world, and if we were you might be right. Heck, you're probably right in a few cases regardless. At the last Chicago meet practically no one could tell the difference in a blind test of the Ragnarok and GS-X mk2. But if you're going to talk in hypotheticals, you have to consider the other factors:

 -quality of components
 -cleanness of design philosophy
 -solid state vs. vacuum tube; and beyond that, OP AMP, Class A, OTL, different varieties of hybrid, etc.
  
 If you really can't hear the difference between different amps, well good for you! You're going to save a lot of money! But if you're talking hypothetically here, it's patently ridiculous to assume all of the factors I just mentioned will fail to make ANY difference in the sound delivered.


----------



## manbear

money4me247 said:


> the purpose of amplifiers is to amplify volume... not change the frequency response or improve sound quality. if there are sound quality improvements with an amplifer, that is the result of underpowered headphone drivers acheiving adequate power.


 

 You're right that two completely transparent amplifiers should sound the same, but you're neglecting the fact that few if any amplifiers are actually transparent. There is a big gulf between the ideal purpose of being a wire with gain and the realities of specific implementations. Nobody has actually made a wire with gain.

 Levaix's KICAS and my Ember both have more than enough power for his Sig Pros. Heck, my phone has enough power for them. They're easy to drive. But they sound clearly different on all three of those amps. None of those three amps are completely transparent, hence they do indeed sound different. And that difference is not explained by power. 

 I do agree with you that marginal returns on amplifiers diminish more quickly than with headphones, for example, but that's a subjective value judgment. Whether or not an improvement is worth the money to you (or me) has nothing to do with whether or not an audible difference exists.

 That you even mention diminishing returns shows that you don't really believe that so many amplifiers are transparent. If they were, then marginal returns would be 0.

 It also depends on the headphones. My P7s aren't very revealing and IMO most amps sound exactly the same through them. The Sig Pros are a different story.


----------



## SuperU

money4me247 said:


> The purpose of amplifiers is just to provide enough power to your headphones so that they reach their full potential & play at an adequate volume. if ur headphones is already receiving adequate power from a well-designed amplifier, it can't actually scale up anymore so there wont really be that significant of a difference spending more money on amplifiers. of course, some amplifiers have unique colorations that can make them sound different, but thats more a preference thing than a true upgrade.
> 
> my advice to you is to spend more money on your headphones rather than the amplifier as headphones have the greatest impact on sound quality.


 
 I have read the other posts after yours above money4me247 and I agree overall with what you are saying.
  
 Going to zero in on the headphone first. And I'm thinking that will be an Alpha Prime. Maybe I need to consider just stepping up to the Ragnarok after I order the new cans.


----------



## Porteroso

money4me247 said:


> levaix said:
> 
> 
> > That's not really 100% accurate, though, at least not the implication that a can's full potential is reached if it sounds loud enough. If that were the case 99% of amps would be completely redundant. Actually, a headphone can get plenty loud and still be nowhere near its potential. From personal experience, an obvious example is my Ultrasone Signature Pro. When I first got it I couldn't imagine it would sound any better out of a better system. However, running these from a better amp increases detail, soundstage, impact, and bass/treble extension. It's scary how much better these sound on my desktop setup compared to my (plenty loud) smartphone, and that's not even counting the subjective elements like presentation and musicality. Granted, Sig Pros are a fairly extreme example, but they're also not a major outlier in a world with the HD800 and HE-6.
> ...


 
 I'll be honest. I'm a violinst, not an audiophile. However, I'd like to think I have a decent pair of ears.
  
 I have, for myself, heard differences in tubes. I have no doubt that there are ever so diminishing returns in amps, however. Especially for tubed amps, there are simply differences. I challenge one to truly test good ears against differences in amplification. I doubt that there will be no difference. Again, speaking only from extremely limited experience, and I'm sure, to make the statement you are making, you have done much a/b testing against single-component difference. Still, I very much doubt that you have as good of ears as mine. I have been told by many professional musicians that I should be in the recording engineering business  And here I am, still working with my hands. I tell myself that they want me to make them sound as good as I do.
  
 In all seriousness, there are so many things that affect how we perceive sound, that these "differences" that people seem to hear sound rather dubious to me. I hear differences in the headphones I have, and differences in the rectifiers I have as well, but I still agree with your basic premise in the law of diminishing returns.
  
 However, I will soon be attending a few meets, and I will be able to judge this for myself. Safe to say, I think you are full of hot air, however much of the "audiophile" community is as well. I will judge for myself. I am the final authority on my ears, nobody else.
  
 But you have given no evidence that you are remotely credible, so I very much doubt both your ears and your claims. To be fair, most peoples' ears are not all that good. I have lost a good bit of hearing attaining the "hearing" I have, even as young as I am, and I do not know who has not. It is a difficult work, and I very much doubt that most are truly in the position to gauge difference in sound.


----------



## Solrighal

The only desktop amp I've heard is the O2 I own. To be honest I'm probably a bit of a skeptic when it comes to valve amps. However, yesterday I received an Ember in the post for evaluation and listened to it all yesterday evening. I have done no scientific evaluation. No blind testing. Just music and beer.
  
 I'm liking the Ember a great deal


----------



## Solrighal




----------



## money4me247

levaix said:


> I guess my first question is this: How _exactly_ do you know if a headphone's potential has been achieved? Are we just going by math based on the impedance of the headphone and the power of the amp? If that's the case, I'll disagree with you all day. My aforementioned Sig Pros are only 32 ohms, and I would bet you good money that I could tell if they were plugged into an Ember or my KICAS in a blind test. Hypothetically they both provide more than enough power, right? And yet the bass extension and speed is much better on my KICAS. That's not considering the "subjective" musical sound that I appreciated when I heard the Ember. Even if we found the most neutral tube possible for Ember and switched off the "Caliente" jumpers on the KICAS, I'd still be confident to pass the test.
> 
> You sound like we're all living in a purely hypothetical world, and if we were you might be right. Heck, you're probably right in a few cases regardless. At the last Chicago meet practically no one could tell the difference in a blind test of the Ragnarok and GS-X mk2. But if you're going to talk in hypotheticals, you have to consider the other factors:
> 
> ...


 
 I don't have the Sig Pro so I cannot comment on them. Yes, you are right. those factors may have an impact on SQ, but from my personal experience trying different components, the audible gains/differences are a lot more marginal than commonly claimed around there. ymmv of course. no big deal.
  
 I think it's silly from a value perspective to recommend upgrading amps/dacs to members whose headphones are still in the mid-fi category as you will get larger gains upgrading your headphones first. just my personal perspective, but of course, there are many different ways to approach this hobby.
  


manbear said:


> You're right that two completely transparent amplifiers should sound the same, but you're neglecting the fact that few if any amplifiers are actually transparent. There is a big gulf between the ideal purpose of being a wire with gain and the realities of specific implementations. Nobody has actually made a wire with gain.
> 
> Levaix's KICAS and my Ember both have more than enough power for his Sig Pros. Heck, my phone has enough power for them. They're easy to drive. But they sound clearly different on all three of those amps. None of those three amps are completely transparent, hence they do indeed sound different. And that difference is not explained by power.
> 
> ...


 
 Cannot comment on the Sig Pros as I have never tried them, but for the rest of your comments, I do agree. Comparing a ss vs tube amplifier, you can often experience larger differences due to the harmonic distortions from tubes. Tube amplifiers are generally not geared towards being audibly transparent. There are many ss amplifiers on the market that may not be designed with that goal in mind as well.
  
 I think you bring up an important point. The SQ improvement gains from components is very dependent on your headphones as well. So that is why I think upgrading headphones is a much more important first step.
  


porteroso said:


> I'll be honest. I'm a violinst, not an audiophile. However, I'd like to think I have a decent pair of ears.
> 
> I have, for myself, heard differences in tubes. I have no doubt that there are ever so diminishing returns in amps, however. Especially for tubed amps, there are simply differences. I challenge one to truly test good ears against differences in amplification. I doubt that there will be no difference. Again, speaking only from extremely limited experience, and I'm sure, to make the statement you are making, you have done much a/b testing against single-component difference. Still, I very much doubt that you have as good of ears as mine. I have been told by many professional musicians that I should be in the recording engineering business  And here I am, still working with my hands. I tell myself that they want me to make them sound as good as I do.
> 
> ...


 
 You should definitely trust your own ears. Do keep in mind though though that your ears can be biased by expectation bias & placebo effect no matter how well trained you are. That is why I personally like to try doing blind testing whenever possible.
  
 Mmm... my personal thoughts on "golden ear" type comments remain quite skeptical. While we do all have a bit of different biases when listening, I think that everyone can accurately judge sound quality after some exposure and learning what to look for. The way our brains work though, we often focus on a different micro-aspects of the overall sound while listening, so different people can have vastly different experiences while using the same components. Actually, you can even have vastly different experiences using the same components over time due to that phenomena. Nothing weird or special about that. Just important to note that there can be a lot of subjective uncertainty in this hobby & our audio memory is not as reliable as people may believe, so it is always nice to try to reconfirm your assumptions via blind testing or direct comparisons. It is impossible to make claims about the relative differences between components if the set-up is not the same as a lot of confounding variables will be introduced. Even small differences in volume can greatly skew your comparison.
  
 Cheers & have fun


----------



## SuperU

porteroso said:


> I'll be honest. I'm a violinst, not an audiophile. However, I'd like to think I have a decent pair of ears.
> 
> I have, for myself, heard differences in tubes. I have no doubt that there are ever so diminishing returns in amps, however. Especially for tubed amps, there are simply differences. I challenge one to truly test good ears against differences in amplification. I doubt that there will be no difference. Again, speaking only from extremely limited experience, and I'm sure, to make the statement you are making, you have done much a/b testing against single-component difference. Still, I very much doubt that you have as good of ears as mine. I have been told by many professional musicians that I should be in the recording engineering business  And here I am, still working with my hands. I tell myself that they want me to make them sound as good as I do.
> 
> ...


 
 Actually, if you look around at the posts, Money4me247 is quite credible. At least I certainly find him to be so. 
  
 Might be kinder to not attack someone's credibility and just go with the fact that your ears are the best judge for you, period. 
  
 This forum is filled with people of varying ability. It's nice to hear the thoughts of all of them. And then decide for ourselves. 
  
 Everyone is in a position to gauge differences in sound as it relates to them. And everyone is in a position to share their experiences here.
  
 Money4me247 has been generous with his thoughts and advice to many and as well to me. For that I am thankful. 
  
 In addition, sometimes it's about looking at the bigger picture, not just the details. Wisdom is knowing when and how to do that. So for me, the 1st order of business is to buy an even better headphone. Then, depending on how much I want to spend I will dig deeper into amps/dacs.
  
 In my case, I can't go to meets. There are none where I live and going to where they are is extremely complex and costly - visas etc. For what it would cost, I could buy a pair of Alpha Prime's or an HD800 or a Ragnarok or an Ember and an Alpha Prime.  So I depend on what people say and analyse accordingly. For that I am extremely grateful this site exists. 
  
 I still am very interested in trying an Ember and comparing it to my Asgard 2. I can sell one of them or just start creating additional listening stations in my house.


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## Porteroso

It is possible that I was slightly tipsy when I made those comments, so my apologies. I am very much still learning about all this. As funny as it would be, I hope I dont end up discovering that people are just hearing things. Still, placebo not only exists, but is important. If buying a $3k hp cable makes music more enjoyable, good for everyone involved, especially whoever is selling it.


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## manbear

I tend to recommend headphone upgrades over amp upgrades as well, especially for newer members who think buying an expensive amp is going to turn headphones they aren't happy with into something much different.


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## SuperU

porteroso said:


> It is possible that I was slightly tipsy when I made those comments, so my apologies. I am very much still learning about all this. As funny as it would be, I hope I dont end up discovering that people are just hearing things. Still, placebo not only exists, but is important. If buying a $3k hp cable makes music more enjoyable, good for everyone involved, especially whoever is selling it.


 
 Yes, placebo exists. Much more than I suspect many would like to admit. I for one will not be buying $3k cables, until everything else is maxed out. Even then, I hope I can resist the temptation should it arise. For $3k one could have 2 TOTL headphones most likely.


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## Stillhart

solrighal said:


> The only desktop amp I've heard is the O2 I own. To be honest I'm probably a bit of a skeptic when it comes to valve amps. However, yesterday I received an Ember in the post for evaluation and listened to it all yesterday evening. I have done no scientific evaluation. No blind testing. Just music and beer.
> 
> I'm liking the Ember a great deal


 
  
 Hey, Zorro, glad to see you listening to the Ember!  The HD650 and Q701 sound REALLY good with it!  If you can, see if you can get your hands on an Amperex 6DJ8; I found it to pair extremely well with the HD650.  Also, don't forget to play with the jumpers on the side to see which sounds best for your cans.  I liked the middle setting best with the HD650.


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## Solrighal

stillhart said:


> Hey, Zorro, glad to see you listening to the Ember!  The HD650 and Q701 sound REALLY good with it!  If you can, see if you can get your hands on an Amperex 6DJ8; I found it to pair extremely well with the HD650.  Also, don't forget to play with the jumpers on the side to see which sounds best for your cans.  I liked the middle setting best with the HD650.


 
  
 Hiya mate, thanks. Yeah, it's actually pretty awesome. It's becoming clear to me that it's quite a significant step up from the O2. I'm kinda sad about that if I'm honest. Still, onwards. I've taken a note of that tube and I'll look into it when I finally buy an Ember. As regards the R jumpers - I can't honestly say I hear a clear difference between the three positions. What should I be hearing?


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## Stillhart

solrighal said:


> Hiya mate, thanks. Yeah, it's actually pretty awesome. It's becoming clear to me that it's quite a significant step up from the O2. I'm kinda sad about that if I'm honest. Still, onwards. I've taken a note of that tube and I'll look into it when I finally buy an Ember. As regards the R jumpers - I can't honestly say I hear a clear difference between the three positions. What should I be hearing?


 
  
 To me, one just felt better.  It felt like fine tuning an analog radio or focusing a projector to just get that last little bit of crispness out of it.  Use a song that you're very familiar with and try all three settings (remembering to set both sides to the same setting each time).


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## manbear

IMO the higher jumper settings sound a little bit warmer/ fuller. How much of a difference depends on the headphones. I'm digging the middle setting with my K340s right now.


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## Solrighal

Yeah, I hear it. The bass is a bit thicker with higher settings. It's not a huge difference though. I'm getting a bit of background noise though, that's a shame. I can't hear it when music is playing but between tracks it's obvious.


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## Levaix

money4me247 said:


> I think it's silly from a value perspective to recommend upgrading amps/dacs to members whose headphones are still in the mid-fi category as you will get larger gains upgrading your headphones first. just my personal perspective, but of course, there are many different ways to approach this hobby.
> 
> I think you bring up an important point. The SQ improvement gains from components is very dependent on your headphones as well. So that is why I think upgrading headphones is a much more important first step.


 

 This is an extremely fair point. Sig Pros are scaling monsters, much more so than, say, a TH900 (which generally sounds good whatever the heck you do with it). When I first experienced the jump I was very surprised. You expect it from HD800s, but not from something that sounds decent out of a smartphone. It's easy to not keep in mind that most headphones probably aren't as extreme.
  
 Also point taken that headphones are generally going to give you the bigger difference in sound. It's definitely more value for dollar when you compare headphones to amps (unless you get a heck of a deal on a nice amp). I know I never even bothered with an amp (or DAC) til I got my first >$300 headphones.

 Thanks for the well thought out response. Glad you didn't take the comments personally, especially since you kind of got ganged up on. 
  


porteroso said:


> I'll be honest. I'm a violinst, not an audiophile. However, I'd like to think I have a decent pair of ears.


 

 First off, I'm a euphonium player, but I guess I'll forgive you your subpar choice of instrument.  I think it's fair to assume a lot of people on these boards have good ears. I know I can't sleep without a fan because my ears pick out every ambient sound... including the high whine of electricity when certain devices are running. Heck, I don't like to be in a "silent" room even when I'm awake.


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## money4me247

Quote:


porteroso said:


> It is possible that I was slightly tipsy when I made those comments, so my apologies. I am very much still learning about all this. As funny as it would be, I hope I dont end up discovering that people are just hearing things. Still, placebo not only exists, but is important. If buying a $3k hp cable makes music more enjoyable, good for everyone involved, especially whoever is selling it.


 
 No worries. I did not take any offense to those comments at all. I think your underlying message makes a lot of sense. Really this is a personal hobby & you have to listen for yourself to determine what sonic differences are significant for you and test for yourself to see whether claims are real or just placebo 
  


levaix said:


> This is an extremely fair point. Sig Pros are scaling monsters, much more so than, say, a TH900 (which generally sounds good whatever the heck you do with it). When I first experienced the jump I was very surprised. You expect it from HD800s, but not from something that sounds decent out of a smartphone. It's easy to not keep in mind that most headphones probably aren't as extreme.
> 
> Also point taken that headphones are generally going to give you the bigger difference in sound. It's definitely more value for dollar when you compare headphones to amps (unless you get a heck of a deal on a nice amp). I know I never even bothered with an amp (or DAC) til I got my first >$300 headphones.
> 
> Thanks for the well thought out response. Glad you didn't take the comments personally, especially since you kind of got ganged up on.


 
 hahaha... no worries at all! This is actually a pretty gentle gang-up. I've seen much worse. I don't mind a honest conversation about personal experiences at all. I think everyone's experiences can hold merit whether or not I personally agree with them.


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## Stillhart

FYI, my Ember is up for sale.    I'll miss it, but I am working on moving up the chain to a balanced setup for my LCD-2 (or maybe an HE-1000 depending on pricing).


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## SuperU

stillhart said:


> FYI, my Ember is up for sale.    I'll miss it, but I am working on moving up the chain to a balanced setup for my LCD-2 (or maybe an HE-1000 depending on pricing).


 
 Tell me about it. PM if you'd prefer.
  
 Did you buy it built or did you build it?
  
 How much are asking?


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## Stillhart

superu said:


> Tell me about it. PM if you'd prefer.
> 
> Did you buy it built or did you build it?
> 
> How much are asking?


 
  
 Your questions are answered in the link in my signature.  PM me if you have any more questions.


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## Asr

Headphone.guru recently posted a review of the amp, includes some history on Garage1217 too: http://headphone.guru/garage1217-project-ember/


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## RedBull

I have one, this is really a great amp.
Soundstage is decent, but layering, depth instrument separation, detail, tonality, treble-bass extension is top notch!!


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## Solrighal

redbull said:


> I have one, this is really a great amp.
> Soundstage is decent, but layering, depth instrument separation, detail, tonality, treble-bass extension is top notch!!




+1


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## SuperU

Any idea how it pairs with the LCD-X?


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## Stillhart

superu said:


> Any idea how it pairs with the LCD-X?


 
  
 I didn't like the Ember with my HE-4 or LCD-2.  I think the tube sound kinda ruins what I like about planars.  I am hoping to upgrade to an LCD-X this year and I wouldn't bother with the Ember with it.  The Polaris might be nice tho... Just my $0.02.


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## SuperU

stillhart said:


> I didn't like the Ember with my HE-4 or LCD-2.  I think the tube sound kinda ruins what I like about planars.  I am hoping to upgrade to an LCD-X this year and I wouldn't bother with the Ember with it.  The Polaris might be nice tho... Just my $0.02.


 
 Thanks. I've got the Asgard 2, so I have an SS amp. That should drive them fine for now.


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## btrancho

Just a heads up for all owners of Garage 1217 amps.  Jeremy is offering aluminum chassis plates for all models on a limited time basis.  3 mm black anodized aluminum with laser etched logos and lettering.  He'll even etch your existing serial number if you provide it when you order.  This is currently just a one time buy.  You'll need to pre-order by Feb. 22 for shipping at or around March 1.  $44.99 for both top and bottom plates, $24.99 for bottom  only.  Check out the Parts-Buy link on the Garage 1217 home page.


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## Solrighal

I've been trialling a Project Ember for a couple of weeks now & it's time to send the demo unit back to Garage1217. It took the place of my O2 while it's been here. I've been a zealous advocate of the O2 since I bought it around 12 months ago. I didn't really expect much from the Project Ember. If anything I expected more warmth (too much?) and maybe less clarity. It didn't work out like that. Here's my brief summation copied over from http://diyah.boards.net/...
  
 "The difference in delivery between the Project Ember & the O2 is stark. I had initially harboured some faint hope that the Ember might not be quite as good as my head was telling me and that the O2 would bring something to the party. Sadly not. The O2 just sounds thin & quite strained at the top end. Curiously the O2 is almost unlistenable with my flatish PEQ adjustments and actually benefits from the mid-bass bloom of the HD 650. I guess that's why it is generally regarded as a 'forgiving' headphone. I'm not going to bother with my Q701's, lol.

 Having the Project Ember has been an eye-opening experience for me. I really was content with the sound of the O2 prior to this experiment. The addition of a valve did not bring the kind of changes I might have expected either. I thought that if anything changed it might be the addition of yet more warmth to the sound but that wasn't really the case. The Ember's biggest feature for me was the soundstage. Everything got bigger and yet at the same time less congested. The bass has much more weight to it and is able to breathe. It became much easier to distinguish bass guitar from bass drum, for instance. One criticism of the 650 - certainly when driven by the O2 - might be that the vocals, whilst clearly imaged, are just a bit too up-front and central. They sound kinda locked-in. Not so with the Ember. Vocals are still clear and present but there's also a sense of air around them too. Much better. The treble improves also and in a way I hadn't expected. There's more air and yet it's not any edgier.

 For optimum performance when paired with the Sennheiser HD 650...

 Input Gain ------------------- Low (the higher gain setting only serves to reduce the amount of useable travel on the volume control; there's plenty of power on the Low setting)

 Input Capacitors ------------- Bypassed (sure, the volume pot becomes 'scratchy' when adjusted but that is a very small price to pay for the ambience this tweak brings to the show)

 Output Resistance ------------ Low (higher settings only serve to thicken the sound and bass becomes slower)

 All testing was undertaken using the stock valve.
  
 In short, my time with the Project Ember has been a thoroughly enlightening experience. I genuinely thought my O2 was maybe, say, 90% on the way to perfection. The Ember clearly bettered the O2 in every single department.

 Better, stronger, wider bass. Mids that are even more natural and breathy. Treble that adds sparkle yet avoids edginess.

 It's also better built and better looking. The Ember is actually not that much more expensive than the O2 but it performs in a different league altogether.

 I have to say a word or two about the whole Garage1217 experience. As a company I don't think I've ever seen one be so responsive to feedback. There's not a trace of arrogance to them. Everything is done for a reason and those reasons are debated & explained in a thoroughly good natured way. The community at http://diyah.boards.net/ is beautiful too. There's a genuine sense of enthusiasm there which is quite contagious and, unlike many other headphone-oriented communities, no-one has lost sight of what this is all actually about. The music".


----------



## elvergun

solrighal said:


> I've been trialling a Project Ember for a couple of weeks now & it's time to send the demo unit back to Garage1217. It took the place of my O2 while it's been here. I've been a zealous advocate of the O2 since I bought it around 12 months ago. I didn't really expect much from the Project Ember. If anything I expected more warmth (too much?) and maybe less clarity. It didn't work out like that. Here's my brief summation copied over from http://diyah.boards.net/...
> 
> "The difference in delivery between the Project Ember & the O2 is stark. I had initially harboured some faint hope that the Ember might not be quite as good as my head was telling me and that the O2 would bring something to the party. Sadly not. The O2 just sounds thin & quite strained at the top end. Curiously the O2 is almost unlistenable with my flatish PEQ adjustments and actually benefits from the mid-bass bloom of the HD 650. I guess that's why it is generally regarded as a 'forgiving' headphone. I'm not going to bother with my Q701's, lol.
> 
> ...


 
  
 So, are you planning on replacing your O2?


----------



## Solrighal

elvergun said:


> So, are you planning on replacing your O2?




I'm definitely going to upgrade but I'm now awaiting the demo version of the Project Polaris before making a decision. The Polaris has the same power as the Ember but is solid-state so it will be interesting to hear that against the Ember.

Either way, the O2 is moving on. The differences are far from subtle to my mind.


----------



## manbear

solrighal said:


> Input Capacitors ------------- Bypassed (sure, the volume pot becomes 'scratchy' when adjusted but that is a very small price to pay for the ambience this tweak brings to the show)


 
  
 I agree with you there. The scratchiness is really pretty bad but I just set the volume pot to a quiet point and use digital volume from there.


----------



## connieflyer

I found the 'scratchy' sound depends on the tube you are using as well, since I have been using the 6sn7 tubes the only time I hear the 'scratchy' sound is very, very  little if I change the setting before the music starts, even then it is hardly audible.  If you haven't got an adapter from Jeremy yet and tried the 6sn7's you are missing a large boost in sound stage and detail as well as bottom end with the Ember, now this is with the Sens 650's.


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## richard51

connieflyer said:


> I found the 'scratchy' sound depends on the tube you are using as well, since I have been using the 6sn7 tubes the only time I hear the 'scratchy' sound is very, very  little if I change the setting before the music starts, even then it is hardly audible.  If you haven't got an adapter from Jeremy yet and tried the 6sn7's you are missing a large boost in sound stage and detail as well as bottom end with the Ember, now this is with the Sens 650's.


 

 i had 12au7 bugle boy with the Ember.... do you think that the 6sn7 tube will be better?


----------



## connieflyer

I have Amperex 12at7 bugle boys and they sounded great, also some 6dj8's and to my ears the 6sn7's are better.  Ymmv, but you can get some good bargains with these tubes.  While waiting for the adapters to be finished, I bought a 6sn7 RCA used from 1943 about, for $3.50 and 3 shipping,  Put it in just to have something to make sure everything worked as it was supposed to, and was amazed at the depth of sound.  Now this tube has some useful life left but at that price it was worth it to try one.  Next up got a Sylvania 6sn7 GT VT231 from 1949 and new, for $20. Great tube, easy to see the difference from the very used tube.  Found 3 Grey Glass Vintage 6SN7GT RCA Vacuum Tubes used for $20. Readings on the tube show a lot of life left in them so should be fun when they get here.  Lastly, found a Tungsol JAN 6SN7GT tubes T Parallel Gray Plates "D" Getter Test 2000/2000 won the bid at 20 dollars also. This is supposed to be one of the best sounding ones out there, check out this page to get a little feel for them.  Brent Jesse's tubes are good quality, a little pricey but he is a good dealer if you don't want to got the ebay route.  You can see the spread on the tube prices, I don't go after the collector tubes as I want to use them and enjoy them not sit back and look at them.  The adapters are only here for a short while so if want to try them, don't wait to long.  The adapter is very high quality, Jeremy does excellent work so no problem there.  Good luck. Don


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> I have Amperex 12at7 bugle boys and they sounded great, also some 6dj8's and to my ears the 6sn7's are better.  Ymmv, but you can get some good bargains with these tubes.  While waiting for the adapters to be finished, I bought a 6sn7 RCA used from 1943 about, for $3.50 and 3 shipping,  Put it in just to have something to make sure everything worked as it was supposed to, and was amazed at the depth of sound.  Now this tube has some useful life left but at that price it was worth it to try one.  Next up got a Sylvania 6sn7 GT VT231 from 1949 and new, for $20. Great tube, easy to see the difference from the very used tube.  Found 3 Grey Glass Vintage 6SN7GT RCA Vacuum Tubes used for $20. Readings on the tube show a lot of life left in them so should be fun when they get here.  Lastly, found a Tungsol JAN 6SN7GT tubes T Parallel Gray Plates "D" Getter Test 2000/2000 won the bid at 20 dollars also. This is supposed to be one of the best sounding ones out there, check out this page to get a little feel for them.  Brent Jesse's tubes are good quality, a little pricey but he is a good dealer if you don't want to got the ebay route.  You can see the spread on the tube prices, I don't go after the collector tubes as I want to use them and enjoy them not sit back and look at them.  The adapters are only here for a short while so if want to try them, don't wait to long.  The adapter is very high quality, Jeremy does excellent work so no problem there.  Good luck. Don


 

 thank you very much for all your help


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## connieflyer

Glad to help, this is alot of fun, but mostly I just enjoy the music, the more the better.


----------



## connieflyer

connieflyer said:


> I have Amperex 12at7 bugle boys and they sounded great, also some 6dj8's and to my ears the 6sn7's are better.  Ymmv, but you can get some good bargains with these tubes.  While waiting for the adapters to be finished, I bought a 6sn7 RCA used from 1943 about, for $3.50 and 3 shipping,  Put it in just to have something to make sure everything worked as it was supposed to, and was amazed at the depth of sound.  Now this tube has some useful life left but at that price it was worth it to try one.  Next up got a Sylvania 6sn7 GT VT231 from 1949 and new, for $20. Great tube, easy to see the difference from the very used tube.  Found 3 Grey Glass Vintage 6SN7GT RCA Vacuum Tubes used for $20. Readings on the tube show a lot of life left in them so should be fun when they get here.  Lastly, found a Tungsol JAN 6SN7GT tubes T Parallel Gray Plates "D" Getter Test 2000/2000 won the bid at 20 dollars also. This is supposed to be one of the best sounding ones out there, check out this page to get a little feel for them.  Brent Jesse's tubes are good quality, a little pricey but he is a good dealer if you don't want to got the ebay route.  You can see the spread on the tube prices, I don't go after the collector tubes as I want to use them and enjoy them not sit back and look at them.  The adapters are only here for a short while so if want to try them, don't wait to long.  The adapter is very high quality, Jeremy does excellent work so no problem there.  Good luck. Don


 

 Well you know when you are getting old, I asked you to check out Brent Jesse's page and forgot to put the link in, boy, one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel, oh well here is the page I was almost going to link to..........http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm.  Sorry about that. Don


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> Well you know when you are getting old, I asked you to check out Brent Jesse's page and forgot to put the link in, boy, one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel, oh well here is the page I was almost going to link to..........http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm.  Sorry about that. Don


 

 thank you for the link Don..... i had bidded on this lot and winning....
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/331471372451?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
  
 i will tell you my impressions best regards to you


----------



## connieflyer

Did you win it, I see the bidding ended.  Nice selection of tubes, would give you an idea of what tube sound you like.  Good luck with the bid.


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> Did you win it, I see the bidding ended.  Nice selection of tubes, would give you an idea of what tube sound you like.  Good luck with the bid.


 

 i win the lot and wait for it now.... Thanks
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 p.s.  30 bucks postal fees included.....


----------



## btrancho

> Just a heads up for all owners of Garage 1217 amps.  Jeremy is offering aluminum chassis plates for all models on a limited time basis.  3 mm black anodized aluminum with laser etched logos and lettering.  He'll even etch your existing serial number if you provide it when you order.  This is currently just a one time buy.  You'll need to pre-order by Feb. 22 for shipping at or around March 1.  $44.99 for both top and bottom plates, $24.99 for bottom  only.  Check out the Parts-Buy link on the Garage 1217 home page.


 
 Correction!!  Pre-order ends Sunday, February 15.  Sorry about that.  Jeremy's initial email sated "Sunday, February 20" and I assumed he meant the 22nd.


----------



## RedBull

I ordered the new limited edition casing, so excited!


----------



## Solrighal

I've just taken delivery of the Project Polaris demo. I've now got both the Polaris & Ember warming up side-by-side. This should be interesting.


----------



## RedBull

Zorrofox, could you share your comparison of Ember against Polaris?
Thanks.


----------



## Solrighal

You know something? There isn't a huge difference.
  
 My source is as per my signature. I'm using my HD 650's to compare the amps. I have other headphones but the 650's get 99% of my head time so I'm only using them for testing as anything else just confuses me. For the record though, the Ember & Polaris both do a far better job of driving my Q701's  than my O2 does.
  
 I'm coming from an O2 amp and I got the Ember several weeks ago and quickly established it was streets ahead of the O2 in every department. Therefore the O2 is now in a cupboard and nowhere near this comparison. This is purely comparing the Ember & Polaris.
  
 The Ember is not a traditional valve amp. It's a hybrid and intended to provide the best of both worlds. Likewise, the Polaris is not a traditional solid-state amp. It uses J-FET's in an attempt to create some of the harmonics traditionally associated with valve amplifiers. The Ember is fitted with the stock valve & that's all I have here. Research is telling me that the stock valve can easily be bettered but I obviously can't testify to that myself. I trust those who
  
 A wee bit about expectation bias first. I was a big fan of the O2. It was my first 'proper' headphone amp and everything about it appealed to me. The simplicity & ethos behind it's design was right up my street and of course, coming from no amp at all, it sounded wonderful. I've previously considered valves to be archaic and always believed that surely we'd moved on from them. So I was thoroughly expecting the Ember to be inferior to the O2 and to find that this was not the case was a shock to the system. Maybe it's because the Ember is a hybrid or maybe it's because it's very powerful but either way it's clearly superior to the O2.
  
 Coming to the Polaris I really wanted it to trump the Ember. I much prefer the Polaris' slimline form factor and the implicitly better reliability of the solid-state design rocks my boat. It's also cheaper by quite a margin. I'm in Scotland and so buying either amp is going to incur import tax so cost really matters to me.
  
 These amps have more in common than what separates them. Both are very powerful. There's bags of headroom. If I heard the Polaris in isolation I'd be more than happy with it. However the Ember seems to have a broader sound-stage, more depth too. The Polaris has a hint of glare at the top, particularly noticeable on high-pitched backing vocals. The Polaris has a wealth of adjustable settings including input sensitivity, bandwidth, gain & output resistance. No matter how I set it up though I'm unable to remove this glare effect.
  
 If the glare was accompanied by a punchier sound it might be just about bearable but if anything I find the Ember to be the punchier amp. Transients are actually clearer on the Ember than the Polaris is able to reproduce.
  
 The Polaris does deliver a truly silent background. The Ember is good in this respect but a valve is almost always going to introduce some noise.
  
 I do seem to prefer a sound on the warm sound of neutral. I don't use HD 650's as my main headphone by accident. I like the relaxed treble and I like the warm bass. Logic would suggest that even more of that would perhaps tip it over the top but the Ember doesn't seem to do that.
  
 The Ember seems to allow more room for the music to breathe. It seems to seep from the headphones. The Polaris sounds just slightly more forced, as though the amp is working harder. There's not as much ambience with the Polaris.
  
 I would - and will - take the Ember. It ticks all my boxes and, with a change of valve, might even get better. The Polaris is what it is. It's an awesomely powerful amp in it's own right but just lacks the smoothness of the Ember.
  
 None of the above is scientific. I haven't performed proper blind testing and I can't even say the comparison's are properly volume-matched. That's not as easy to achieve as it sounds. I'm also nearly 50 years old and do exhibit some very slight hearing loss at the top end of the spectrum. Still I prefer the HD 650 over other designs. Go figure.
  
 A quick word about Garage1217. These amps are superbly built. It's not like you could hide any flaws in the build either. The support from the manufacturers is also second to none. The designer and the builder's are both readily available for help & advice over on DIYAH.
  
 No, I don't work for them. I'm also not really the kind of person who could be described as a fan-boy.
  
 Please feel free to ask any questions you might have & I'll do my best to answer them. The Ember is now moving on to the next person on the list (Germany I believe) and I'll be left with the Polaris for a couple of weeks maybe. I will get used to the Polaris in that period and probably forget what the Ember managed to do better.
  
 I hope this is of some help for people considering both amps.


----------



## richard51

thank you for your very well written appreciation and impressions


----------



## Stillhart

Thanks, Zorrofox, that's a nice writeup.  What you describe seems to be about what I expected the difference to be between the two.  That smoother sound that you like so much is definitely the "tube sound" and it synergizes amazingly well with the HD650.  Both tube and SS amps have their strengths and weaknesses and I think the Ember just clearly works better with your headphones.  I loved my Ember with both the Q701 and HD650.
  
 I suspect the Polaris will sound better with headphones that prefer a SS amp.  For me, that was my planars.  The tubes just didn't synergize at all with them (for me*** many others disagree with me on this) and I preferred the SS sound.


----------



## RedBull

Thanks for the detailed comparison zorrofox.

That confirms firmly my conclusions from people's brief impressions.
I think i'll like ember better.


----------



## Solrighal

I've sent the Ember on to another tester and I've just got the Polaris for now. I said in my previous post that the Ember & Polaris have more in common than differentiates them and I stand by that. It's nowhere near a night & day difference, that's for sure. I'd be happy with either amp.


----------



## zeed

I write here, maybe it will more appropriate 
  
 I wanted to ask if someone compared side by side project Ember vs LittleDot MK IV -with maybe same tubes?- and if yes which were the thoughs and conclusions about both.. anyone did that?
  
 Thank you guys


----------



## meraias

Anyone tried sensitive IEMs with the Ember?


----------



## ericr

meraias said:


> Anyone tried sensitive IEMs with the Ember?




Yes! It's very good with multi-armature IEMs. I own the SM64 and 1964 Ears V6 Stage, and had K10 demos for several days this past summer. An improvement over the Asgard 2 I was using before ordering the Ember.

The V6-Stage are quite sensitive and of low impedance (16 Ohms IIRC) so Jeremy did drop the power on the low gain for me by changing out some resistors.

That and lower gain tubes such as 12AU7, 12BH7, 6DJ8, 6CG7, etc. give good range on the volume pot with my IEMs, while the high gain is great for my HE-560 full size cans.

Be sure to use the low (.1 Ohms) output impedance setting for your IEMs to keep the bass nice and tight and clean. You can change the output impedance while listening and it's interesting to hear how it affects different headphones.


----------



## meraias

ericr said:


> Yes! It's very good with multi-armature IEMs. I own the SM64 and 1964 Ears V6 Stage, and had K10 demos for several days this past summer. An improvement over the Asgard 2 I was using before ordering the Ember.
> 
> The V6-Stage are quite sensitive and of low impedance (16 Ohms IIRC) so *Jeremy did drop the power on the low gain for me by changing out some resistors.*
> 
> ...


 

 Excellent reply, brief but useful advice on tubes and equipments.
 I didn't know there's an option for them to lower power output. Im using SE846 which is 8 ohms which I think hiss is almost unavoidable with Ember.
 but this Ember thingy is indeed growing on me.


----------



## oopeteroo

which one is easier to diy build from the kit? ember or crack ?


----------



## Jakkal

meraias said:


> Excellent reply, brief but useful advice on tubes and equipments.
> I didn't know there's an option for them to lower power output. Im using SE846 which is 8 ohms which I think hiss is almost unavoidable with Ember.
> but this Ember thingy is indeed growing on me.


 
 I think you should look at Polaris. It handle sensitive IEM's better because the 6 gain options and the power can be lowered even more by Jeremy.


----------



## dspitael

Hey folks
  
 I have a few questions about this amp en headphones to use it with.
 I 'm very new to the head-fi world, but after some research and a lot of reading I am doubting between the HD700 and the T90.
 So my question is, how good would this amp be with those headphone. The amp will be mayby some overkill but I want to invest in a decent amp that will be compatible with a loy of headphones.
 In the way, that when I upgrade the  headphone it wouldn't be mandatory to upgrade my amp to.
  
 Thanks


----------



## btrancho

oopeteroo said:


> which one is easier to diy build from the kit? ember or crack ?


 
 The Ember would be easier since it uses a PC board and simply involves carefully inserting the components in their proper place and orientation, along with good soldering technique.  The Crack uses point to point wiring where you cut, strip and fit the wires and components as per the instructions.  With the Crack you need to be careful to trim all the wires and leads well and follow the instructions carefully (not that you don't have to take care with the Ember, as well)
  
 I have built both and use them regularly.  The Ember is my office amp and the Crack my living room amp.  Both ave excellent instructions but you must take your time, double/triple check your connections and develop good solder technique.  Most problems first time DIY builders have come from poor solder connections.  I'be been doing this a while and still had to go back as resolder some of my Ember connections to get it perfect.
  
 BTW - these are two very different amps.  The hybrid Ember is versatile and can be configured to many types of headphones.  The Crack is an OTL (Output TransformerLess) amp suited only for high impedance headphones like the Sennheiser HD600/650s.  The Crack sings with high impedance headphones.  The Ember is great with a wider variety of headphones.


----------



## DigitalFreak

I got the intro video up tonight. I'll be doing a video review for each of the 3 amps guys.


----------



## DavidA

I currently have a Lyr2 and Asgard2, would the Project Ember be a good addition for use with my other headphones: Grado SR-225e / RS2e, LCD-2f, HD-700, SRH-1840, HE-400 / 400i / 560 (hope to get back from my son, or a new one)?  I have a HD-650 coming in a few days ($290 on Amazon, couldn't resist).  I thought about tube rolling with Lyr but reading about the Ember it would be cheaper and you can change the gain and impedance so it should make it more flexible with my other headphones.


----------



## Jakkal

davida said:


> I currently have a Lyr2 and Asgard2, would the Project Ember be a good addition for use with my other headphones: Grado SR-225e / RS2e, LCD-2f, HD-700, SRH-1840, HE-400 / 400i / 560 (hope to get back from my son, or a new one)?  I have a HD-650 coming in a few days ($290 on Amazon, couldn't resist).  I thought about tube rolling with Lyr but reading about the Ember it would be cheaper and you can change the gain and impedance so it should make it more flexible with my other headphones.


 
 I think you have answered your own question. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 But yes, with Ember and his auto bias function, tube rolling will be a breeze.


----------



## RedBull

All i can say is, ember is awesome with hd650 and lcd 2.1!


----------



## DavidA

jakkal said:


> I think you have answered your own question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Jakkal,
 Just wanted some confirmation that what I was reading and my interpretation was correct.


----------



## Solrighal

I can't comment on Its rivals sound quality but I think the Ember has them all beat for flexibility. Coupled with the HD 650 it's the best sound I've ever heard, period.


----------



## btrancho

davida said:


> I currently have a Lyr2 and Asgard2, would the Project Ember be a good addition for use with my other headphones: Grado SR-225e / RS2e, LCD-2f, HD-700, SRH-1840, HE-400 / 400i / 560 (hope to get back from my son, or a new one)?  I have a HD-650 coming in a few days ($290 on Amazon, couldn't resist).  I thought about tube rolling with Lyr but reading about the Ember it would be cheaper and you can change the gain and impedance so it should make it more flexible with my other headphones.


 
 Two weeks after I built my Ember I retired my Lyr and sold it soon after.  The Ember is quieter, powers all my headphones just as well, and offers more tube rolling possibilities.  My Mad Dogs, Alessandro MS1, HD600s and Fidelio X1 all sound great with the Ember.


----------



## DavidA

btrancho said:


> Two weeks after I built my Ember I retired my Lyr and sold it soon after.  The Ember is quieter, powers all my headphones just as well, and offers more tube rolling possibilities.  My Mad Dogs, Alessandro MS1, HD600s and Fidelio X1 all sound great with the Ember.


 
 If I go with the Ember I'll get the already made one, I can do the soldering but being a civil engineer and not an electrical is not a good thing when dealing with electronics like this.  I was also looking at the WA7 since a poster on the HD-650 thread said they would go great with the phones that I currently have but its 3 times the price and the tubes that it uses are some of the higher priced ones.  But boy is that black cube sexy (my girlfriend said its one of the most beautiful squares she has seen, then saw the price, and gave a "maybe") so I have some hope.
 Thanks for the info and now I really have some hard decisions to make.


----------



## money4me247

davida said:


> If I go with the Ember I'll get the already made one, I can do the soldering but being a civil engineer and not an electrical is not a good thing when dealing with electronics like this.  I was also looking at the WA7 since a poster on the HD-650 thread said they would go great with the phones that I currently have but its 3 times the price and the tubes that it uses are some of the higher priced ones.  But boy is that black cube sexy (my girlfriend said its one of the most beautiful squares she has seen, then saw the price, and gave a "maybe") so I have some hope.
> Thanks for the info and now I really have some hard decisions to make.


 
 mmm I recently purchased the wa7+wa7tp with stock tubes, and while it is a beautiful & very capable amplifier, it doesn't seem to provide any additional sonic improvements to really justify its premium price tag compared to the Schiit Lyr 2 & Bifrost Uber Gen2 USB stack. In fact, I would say that the dac on the Bifrost is much more capable and I normally run the wa7 from the bifrost rather than using its onboard dac when using it. the total cost of the schiit combo ends up being much cheaper as well. the performance of project ember is quite comparable to the lyr 2 from my research. i was actually debating between them when looking for my first mid-entry amplifier.
  
 if you purchase the project ember, you will have a lot more wiggle room to purchase a high quality dac of your choice.


----------



## iancraig10

davida said:


> I was also looking at the WA7 since a poster on the HD-650 thread said they would go great with the phones that I currently have but its 3 times the price and the tubes that it uses are some of the higher priced ones.  But boy is that black cube sexy (my girlfriend said its one of the most beautiful squares she has seen, then saw the price, and gave a "maybe") so I have some hope.
> Thanks for the info and now I really have some hard decisions to make.




A combo that is unbelievably good is the use of a filter that Solderdude designed for the hd650. I trialled a home unit and with the filter, it's lifted into a new level. It's based on actual measurements taken from the headphone and only targets certain areas.

Filters will become available to go with the Embers and Polaris amps and the hd650 one in particular is stunning.

It takes the sub bass up so the Senn goes extremely low and shaves of its mid bass hump. The result is that the treble is a little more obvious as a result and you get this sublime low, rumble of a bass.

I find the hd650 without a filter not quite right now as a result, so I use a th900 to bring back that lower information.

It really is worthwhile.


----------



## DavidA

iancraig10 said:


> A combo that is unbelievably good is the use of a filter that Solderdude designed for the hd650. I trialled a home unit and with the filter, it's lifted into a new level. It's based on actual measurements taken from the headphone and only targets certain areas.
> 
> Filters will become available to go with the Embers and Polaris amps and the hd650 one in particular is stunning.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi iancraig, new here so i don't know what is this filter and how is it used?  Sorry for asking if its been answered before.


----------



## iancraig10

It's an active filter designed by Solderdude. He's the guy who designed the garage amps. He sent me a Kameleon amp to try with various headphones and a selection of filters. It was stunning. The hd650 goes into a new level, with proper sub bass and the mid bass hump lowered.

Units will be designed to fit before the Garage amps in order to give you that sub bass with everything that they sell.

Since I had the Kameleon, I find the Senn hd650 nowhere near as good, so I've moved on to a th900, but when the filters are released, I will get one for my Senns.


----------



## Solrighal

It would be nice if the filter could be built into a slimline build with the same footprint as the Garage amps. I'd definitely buy one. 

Can anyone suggest something for physically isolating the Project Ember from the desktop? In the past I've used cut-down squash balls but they're too big & ugly to go with something as petite as the Ember. Preferably something cheap too.


----------



## DavidA

money4me247 said:


> mmm I recently purchased the wa7+wa7tp with stock tubes, and while it is a beautiful & very capable amplifier, it doesn't seem to provide any additional sonic improvements to really justify its premium price tag compared to the Schiit Lyr 2 & Bifrost Uber Gen2 USB stack. In fact, I would say that the dac on the Bifrost is much more capable and I normally run the wa7 from the bifrost rather than using its onboard dac when using it. the total cost of the schiit combo ends up being much cheaper as well. the performance of project ember is quite comparable to the lyr 2 from my research. i was actually debating between them when looking for my first mid-entry amplifier.
> 
> if you purchase the project ember, you will have a lot more wiggle room to purchase a high quality dac of your choice.


 

 thanks for the info on the WA7, looks like i'll have to keep looking.  The Ember looks like a good deal but one of the my girlfriend said is that it looks so "quaint" compared to the WA7.


----------



## money4me247

davida said:


> thanks for the info on the WA7, looks like i'll have to keep looking.  The Ember looks like a good deal but one of the my girlfriend said is that it looks so "quaint" compared to the WA7.


 
 if you are buying for aesthetics primarily, nothing will beat the WA7. in terms of sonic performance though, they are honestly all about the same.
  
 if you are looking for a pretty option, you can check out the Schiit Lyr 2.


----------



## DavidA

money4me247 said:


> if you are buying for aesthetics primarily, nothing will beat the WA7. in terms of sonic performance though, they are honestly all about the same.
> 
> if you are looking for a pretty option, you can check out the Schiit Lyr 2.


 

 Already have a Lyr2, Asgard2, and Teac AH-01.  Looking for something to go with HD-650 & 700, LCD-2f, HE-400/400i/560, and RS2e, something with switchable impedance, variable gain, tube rolling.  The comments from the girlfriend is that if she likes it, she might just go and buy it for me


----------



## money4me247

davida said:


> Already have a Lyr2, Asgard2, and Teac AH-01.  Looking for something to go with HD-650 & 700, LCD-2f, HE-400/400i/560, and RS2e, something with switchable impedance, variable gain, tube rolling.  The comments from the girlfriend is that if she likes it, she might just go and buy it for me


 
 lol the Lyr 2 has switchable impedance and will work for all those other headphones you listed.
  
 hahah... gettin your gf to buy a $1k+ amp would be a pretty sweet deal.


----------



## DavidA

money4me247 said:


> lol the Lyr 2 has switchable impedance and will work for all those other headphones you listed.
> 
> hahah... gettin your gf to buy a $1k+ amp would be a pretty sweet deal.


 

 She already got me the RS2e and a second HE-560 (my son wanted the first one that I got).  The way she looks at it, its way cheaper than her hand bags, $2800 for a Channel, or $8000 for a Hermes.
  
 The Lyr2 is pretty good but I got to hear my LCD-2f on a WA7 and it sounded sweet, and my HD-650 on a WA3 was really jammin' so this is why I've started looking a different amps.


----------



## cskippy

Get a WA5 and call it quits!


----------



## Solrighal

I was going to say move to Hawaii and call it quits but you're already there. I hate you.


----------



## No_One411

davida said:


> She already got me the RS2e and a second HE-560 (my son wanted the first one that I got).  The way she looks at it, its way cheaper than her hand bags, $2800 for a Channel, or $8000 for a Hermes.
> 
> The Lyr2 is pretty good but I got to hear my LCD-2f on a WA7 and it sounded sweet, and my HD-650 on a WA3 was really jammin' so this is why I've started looking a different amps.


 
 The thing is, you will probably continue to enjoy your audio investments for some time, while the fancy handbag will lose its "value" within the month. 
  
 I'm envious though. Seems like she understands/approves of your hobby.


----------



## DavidA

no_one411 said:


> The thing is, you will probably continue to enjoy your audio investments for some time, while the fancy handbag will lose its "value" within the month.
> 
> I'm envious though. Seems like she understands/approves of your hobby.


 

 She buys the hand bags for her self and those high end hand bags don't really lose value, most channel hand bags have a life time warranty (I know she broke a strap on one and they gave her a new bag), and hermes bags depreciate since they aren't the most common, kinda like the Ferrari's or Lamborghini or hand bags.
  
 She actually enjoys listening to music, she used to be a ballerina and played the piano when she was younger.  She uses the HD-700 and SRH-1840 with the Teac AH-01 when she wants to listen at night but prefers speakers (TYR Rauna/SAE P-102/SAE X10A/Fiio X1) setup in the bedroom.


----------



## DavidA

Lucked out, GF said she'll pay for the Ember but dinner is my treat tonight (good deal, Vietnamese Pho, $35 tops)


----------



## money4me247

davida said:


> Lucked out, GF said she'll pay for the Ember but dinner is my treat tonight (good deal, Vietnamese Pho, $35 tops)


 
 niiice!!! lucky


----------



## DavidA

Got my Ember today, started up with HE-400 and was blown away, it tamed the highs, much smoother than Lyr2, the mids became a little more forward and the bass had more impact and fuller sounding, almost makes the HE-400 a bass head phone.  Will continue to listen with my other phones and see how it goes.
 PS: girlfriend loved the light under the tube, had it set to purple but it looks closer to pink, her favorite color.  She tried the SRH-1840 and loved the sound with Ember, she's thinking of getting a second Ember for her computer on the lanai and move the Teac AH-01 somewhere else.


----------



## Thujone

Glad to see you like it. The Ember is amazing. Are you noticing a soundstage/air difference as well? I haven't listened to an amp that opens up the HE-4 as much as Ember.


----------



## DavidA

This Ember is really bad for my health, got it setup about 6pm yesterday and haven't slept yet, its 10:30 in Hawaii now, lol. 


thujone said:


> Glad to see you like it. The Ember is amazing. Are you noticing a soundstage/air difference as well? I haven't listened to an amp that opens up the HE-4 as much as Ember.


 

 With my HE-560 it sounds soooo much better than the Lyr2, still using the Bifrost for a DAC.  I was playing around with connecting my X3 using the line out to the Ember and I think that's all I really need for everyday listening, two little devices that create one hell of a listening experience on the HE-560 and RS2e.
 Now comes the part where my wallet is going to hide, started looking at trying some different tubes based on all the comments I've read here over the last few weeks.
 My girlfriend just got up and gave me this look like What, you didn't sleep yet.  She put on the HE-560 and started to bob her head and gave me this "yea, I understand why you didn't go to sleep yet" look.
 Wish I had gotten the "Supercharger" option when I ordered but then if my GF wants a second Ember I'll give her this one and order one with the "supercharger" option installed.


----------



## money4me247

davida said:


> This Ember is really bad for my health, got it setup about 6pm yesterday and haven't slept yet, its 10:30 in Hawaii now, lol.
> 
> With my HE-560 it sounds soooo much better than the Lyr2, still using the Bifrost for a DAC.  I was playing around with connecting my X3 using the line out to the Ember and I think that's all I really need for everyday listening, two little devices that create one hell of a listening experience on the HE-560 and RS2e.
> Now comes the part where my wallet is going to hide, started looking at trying some different tubes based on all the comments I've read here over the last few weeks.
> ...


 
 heh... smart! slipping her the unupgraded version & upgrading for yourself  heh. didnt she buy the unupgraded version for you to begin with? hah
  
 are you saying that the he-560 sounds better on the lyr 2 compared to the ember? or that the ember+x3 equals the lyr 2+bifrost in performance? sry not quite sure i picked up exactly what you meant.


----------



## DavidA

money4me247 said:


> heh... smart! slipping her the unupgraded version & upgrading for yourself  heh. didnt she buy the unupgraded version for you to begin with? hah
> 
> are you saying that the he-560 sounds better on the lyr 2 compared to the ember? or that the ember+x3 equals the lyr 2+bifrost in performance? sry not quite sure i picked up exactly what you meant.


 

 The HE-560 sounds way better on the ember than the Lyr2. 
  
 The X3 + the Ember is one hell of a system with either the HE-560 or RS2e.  The Bifrost connected to the ember still sounds better than the X3 as a DAC but only when doing really critical listening which is not what I want to do, I just want to enjoy the music.
  
 I still haven't tried my LCD-2f, HD-700 and SRH-1840 on the ember so looks like I might not get much sleep over the next few days.


----------



## money4me247

davida said:


> The HE-560 sounds way better on the ember than the Lyr2.
> 
> The X3 + the Ember is one hell of a system with either the HE-560 or RS2e.  The Bifrost connected to the ember still sounds better than the X3 as a DAC but only when doing really critical listening which is not what I want to do, I just want to enjoy the music.
> 
> I still haven't tried my LCD-2f, HD-700 and SRH-1840 on the ember so looks like I might not get much sleep over the next few days.


 
 better how? and is this with a direct blinded comparison? (hahah i'm always wary of unconscious bias)


----------



## DavidA

money4me247 said:


> better how? and is this with a direct blinded comparison? (hahah i'm always wary of unconscious bias)


 

 Not a blind test, my old level matching switch box died so kinda hard to do that now.
 I have set list of 30 songs that I use to evaluate headphones, amps and dacs.  The songs range from live acoustic, classical and rock (most in FLAC, some wave) from SACD or CD, FLAC files that I've created from LP's, current POP, K-POP, J-POP from CD's, and some downloaded higher bit rate FLAC and wave files.  I found that the production quality of K-pop and J-pop tends to be better than POP music that's produced in the US.
 Best way I can describe it is the ember brings the music to life more than the lyr2.  I started with the Modi/Magni combo and that was a pretty good setup at the time because I had not heard anything better at the time, also I was still in my speaker phase.  When I got the Bifrost/Asgard2 combo there was a similar sensation that the music was more alive but not quite as much as from the lyr2 to the ember.  Going from the Asgard2 to the Lyr2 there was a noticeable difference in sound for the LCD2 and HE-400, but the HE-400i/560 didn't have that much of an improvement.
 Hope this makes sense, I'm going on 38 hours of no sleep so if it sounds crazy I apologize.


----------



## DavidA

money4me247 said:


> glad you made your choice.
> 
> I would take impressions in general with a grain of salt as everyone has different preferences.
> 
> just fyi, i think it would be a mistake to purchase an amplifier first for headphones you do not currently own. it is usually wiser to get the headphones first & then get an amplifier that suits it.


 
 +1 good recommendation on getting headphone first, amp second


----------



## DavidA

superu said:


> Actually, if you look around at the posts, Money4me247 is quite credible. At least I certainly find him to be so.
> 
> I still am very interested in trying an Ember and comparing it to my Asgard 2. I can sell one of them or just start creating additional listening stations in my house.


 
 +1 to comment on Money4me247.
  
 As to Ember vs Asgard 2, I got the Asgard2 last year and really enjoyed it with the headphones that I had at the time (HE-400, ATH-M50, MED-7506, Fidelio X1) as these are fairly easy to drive, except HE-400 which didn't quite sound as good as when I heard it at a friends house driven by a Lyr.  I got a Lyr2 and noticed a big improvement in the bass and the harsh highs were tamed a bit.  Over the next few months I've acquired a LCD-2f, RS2e, SRH-1840, HE-400i, HE-560, HD-700 and HD-650 and the Lyr2 sounded good but there was something missing with the LCD-2f and HD-650 so looking thru Head-Fi I came across this thread for the Ember and also the Bottlehead Crack/SEX.  Since I haven't done much soldering for ages I decided to get the Ember (may still try my hand w/ the SEX).  The thing that makes the Ember great is the flexibility of changing the output impedance to match your headphones and this is important with the HD-650 more than any of the headphones that I currently have.
  
 Back to Asgard2 vs Ember: the Ember is much more flexible if you have a lot of different phones with different output impedance requirements but if only a few phones with similar impedance ratings the Asgard2 will work quite well.  Once you start to change tubes with the Ember (I have a few on order) you can sort of tailor the amp to have better synergy with various phones which is what I think is the beauty of the Ember.


----------



## richard51

the Ember has no sound of his own... he is not prisoner of a design... with the right tube ( 6sn7 family) and his flexibility his potential adaptation to all headphones made him the best purchase at his price...No review has been made yet with a good 6ns7 tube... But this tube change the sound so much that the Ember is without rivals around this price.....


----------



## SuperU

Thanks David. Makes a lot of sense.
  
 I just got Audeze LCD-X and would love to hear how they sound with the Ember. It would drive them very well, I know that. Both of my headphones are pretty low impedance (Mad Dog Pro. nd LCD-X) so the settings would probably stay the same.
  


richard51 said:


> the Ember has no sound of his own... he is not prisoner of a design... with the right tube ( 6sn7 family) and his flexibility his potential adaptation to all headphones made him the best purchase at his price...No review has been made yet with a good 6ns7 tube... But this tube change the sound so much that the Ember is without rivals around this price.....


 
 This is what concerns me when I read the words… "at this price". I like the price, but wouldn't mind paying quite a bit more if I knew it was awesome. It's kind of like hearing, "These headphone sound really good at this price". I want great sounding headphones at any price - well, not any price… but you get the idea.


----------



## DavidA

superu said:


> Thanks David. Makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I just got Audeze LCD-X and would love to hear how they sound with the Ember. It would drive them very well, I know that. Both of my headphones are pretty low impedance (Mad Dog Pro. nd LCD-X) so the settings would probably stay the same.
> 
> This is what concerns me when I read the words… "at this price". I like the price, but wouldn't mind paying quite a bit more if I knew it was awesome. It's kind of like hearing, "These headphone sound really good at this price". I want great sounding headphones at any price - well, not any price… but you get the idea.


 

 I just got my EL8 open back today and they sound really close to my LCD-2f.  Using the Ember to run thru my list of test songs and really enjoying it, not doing any critical listening, just enjoying the sound, its a fun sound, not the most accurate but I listen to enjoy the music, not to see if a headphone or speaker is accurate.  Early impressions is It doesn't have the highs like the HE-560 or a Grado but the bass is deep like a HE-400 and hits just right, so far its a good headphone if you only have one IMO, seems to work good to great with almost any types of music.  Will try it with the Lyr2 and right off my X3 later to see if it can be used as a portable as they say.  Also they are more comfortable than the LCD-2f being lighter but it seems like the ear pads look very similar but shallower.


----------



## money4me247

davida said:


> I just got my EL8 open back today and they sound really close to my LCD-2f.  Using the Ember to run thru my list of test songs and really enjoying it, not doing any critical listening, just enjoying the sound, its a fun sound, not the most accurate but I listen to enjoy the music, not to see if a headphone or speaker is accurate.  Early impressions is It doesn't have the highs like the HE-560 or a Grado but the bass is deep like a HE-400 and hits just right, so far its a good headphone if you only have one IMO, seems to work good to great with almost any types of music.  Will try it with the Lyr2 and right off my X3 later to see if it can be used as a portable as they say.  Also they are more comfortable than the LCD-2f being lighter but it seems like the ear pads look very similar but shallower.


 
 would you happen to know the actual measured dimensions of the earpads? thanks!


----------



## DavidA

money4me247 said:


> would you happen to know the actual measured dimensions of the earpads? thanks!


 

 4-1/2" by 4" outside dimension and 2-3/4" by 2" inside dimension,  1/2" depth on the front and 7/8" on the back.


----------



## richard51

superu said:


> Thanks David. Makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I just got Audeze LCD-X and would love to hear how they sound with the Ember. It would drive them very well, I know that. Both of my headphones are pretty low impedance (Mad Dog Pro. nd LCD-X) so the settings would probably stay the same.
> 
> This is what concerns me when I read the words… "at this price". I like the price, but wouldn't mind paying quite a bit more if I knew it was awesome. It's kind of like hearing, "These headphone sound really good at this price". I want great sounding headphones at any price - well, not any price… but you get the idea.


 

 i understand you......i will say it in this way now  : i dont think about upgrading , with the 6sn7 tube in the Ember, i dont think that any upgrading to a thousand dollars amp will be a good idea for me....where is the amp whith this flexibility with all headphone and 3 d sound ?


----------



## richard51

a last point...... I have a stax basic system and i prefer the he 400 with the Ember.....more realistic 3 d sound......this say all....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the difference is not the he 400 but the Ember empowering it..... I think to buy the he 1000 in year to come not upgrading with another costly amp....where is the amp that i can tweak for a headphone or another and use with succes simultanesously like a pre-amp for my speakers and for the stax ? the 6ns7 sylvania gt tube is a marvel that eclipsed all my others tubes....3 d sound..


----------



## RedBull

superu said:


> Thanks David. Makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I just got Audeze LCD-X and would love to hear how they sound with the Ember. It would drive them very well, I know that. Both of my headphones are pretty low impedance (Mad Dog Pro. nd LCD-X) so the settings would probably stay the same.
> 
> This is what concerns me when I read the words… "at this price". I like the price, but wouldn't mind paying quite a bit more if I knew it was awesome. It's kind of like hearing, "These headphone sound really good at this price". I want great sounding headphones at any price - well, not any price… but you get the idea.




I get the idea. I have not heard an amp that sounds better than Ember.
Well it depends who's 'better', but at least it's 'better' in my definition.
It is engaging but maintain smooth and 3d at the same time.


----------



## lynx121

davida said:


> The thing that makes the Ember great is the flexibility of changing the output impedance to match your headphones and this is important with the HD-650 more than any of the headphones that I currently have.


 
  
 Noob here. I'm curious as to how changing the output impedance affects the sound, care to explain and/or describe the sound?


----------



## Thujone

lynx121 said:


> Noob here. I'm curious as to how changing the output impedance affects the sound, care to explain and/or describe the sound?


 
  
 In general, you'll hear the tube more at the higher impedance settings. The low impedance setting will be closer to the solid-state sound.


----------



## smitty1110

lynx121 said:


> Noob here. I'm curious as to how changing the output impedance affects the sound, care to explain and/or describe the sound?


 
  
 I don't really understand how it works, myself, but some headphones/IEMs are really sensitive to impedance, and it changes the sound significantly. There was some interesting discussions elsewhere on the internet about how the HD800's have a better frequency response when you have an output impedance of 120 Ohms. There was also an interesting discussion about the Pono and how it's output impedance (3.5-3.8 ohms in most cases) is too much for most high-end IEMs. If @purrin could chime in on this, it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## money4me247

lynx121 said:


> Noob here. I'm curious as to how changing the output impedance affects the sound, care to explain and/or describe the sound?


 
 Low output impedance with high input impedance delivers voltage amplification. High output impedance with low input impedance delivers current amplification.
  
 You generally want your headphone impedance to be at least x8 greater than the output impedance of the amplifier. If the amplifier's impedance is too high, you will start to hear background noise on more sensitive headphones.
  
 Since headphone impedance changes with frequency, the different voltages of different output impedance levels will also change with frequencies. Larger output impedance will result in greater frequency response deviations, and can lead to noticeable sonic changes. May tune this to your preference.
  
 Also, larger output impedance has reduced electrical damping. Decreasing electrical damping will most noticeably effect the bass performance, leading to a boomy looser bass with slower transient response and rolled-off extension. This can result in a warm tube-like sound. I believe this is why people say that high gain can give you a warm bass boost, while low gain offers a more transparent sound.
  
 Generally, people seem to think that low impedance/low gain is superior for accurate reproduction ("solid-state amp sound"), while higher output impedance/low gain may make your music sound rich, full, and 'euphonic' ("tube amp sound"). Really personal preference I guess, so you can play around with the settings and see what you find & like.
  
 Hope this was helpful!


----------



## ericr

From a end results standpoint, most balanced armature IEMs have very low impedance specs and will deliver sloppy / bloated bass if driven by an amp with higher output impedance (the Ember's low impedance setting of .1 is perfect in this case). On the other hand, some of the higher end full-size cans with dynamic drivers (Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, etc.) have a much higher impedance spec and can sound harsh, bright, or excessive in treble if driven with a low impedance amp, but can excel when driven by an amp with higher output impedance.


----------



## RedBull

Last night i watched movies with Ember and Audio Gd NFB-2 DAC with hd650 ..... AWESOME.
It's like being there in the scene with the story.
Soundstage depth helps a lot in this case, sound separations and detail is WOW.
Vocals has proper weight, emition detail, separated nicely in the center, all the background sound like insect sound, creaking of wooden floor, wind, dried leafs, bird chirping all clearly heard where it supposed to be, in the background. 
It doesn't interfere with the vocal.

I never know hd650 capable of doing all these details, frequency extension.

I am pleased .... wow.


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Last night i watched movies with Ember and Audio Gd NFB-2 DAC with hd650 ..... AWESOME.
> It's like being there in the scene with the story.
> Soundstage depth helps a lot in this case, sound separations and detail is WOW.
> Vocals has proper weight, emition detail, separated nicely in the center, all the background sound like insect sound, creaking of wooden floor, wind, dried leafs, bird chirping all clearly heard where it supposed to be, in the background.
> ...


 

 Can I ask what player/source you used (Bluray / DVD or computer?) and how it was connected to NFB-2?  I've never tried headphones watching movies but since I'm retired I've been going to sleep like 4 or 5 in the morning so can't turn up the speaker system.  What's the best or recommend way to connect Bluray player?  I can go HDMI to receiver and coax out to DAC or should I direct with optical or coax to DAC?


----------



## RedBull

I do not want to go super complicated way to watch movies with headphone.
 I was just using Minix Neo X8-H media player (4 core CPU, 8 core GPU) via Optical out with humble 3  meters toslink cable.
 I know 3 meters optical cable is not optimal, but who cares 
  
 For your setup, I think going direct via Coax to DAC might be the best way as it does not have to go through additional complex component like your receiver.
 I think coax it better than Optical, but since Minix does not have Coax out, it's better than nothing.
  
 Provided your DAC can support ALL audio format from the BluRay like DTS etc, OR
 Your BluRay can convert to LPCM 2 channel to your DAC first then your DAC just process 2 channel information.
 The former is better, but my setup only allows me to do the later.


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> For your setup, I think going direct via Coax to DAC might be the best way as it does not have to go through additional complex component like your receiver.
> I think coax it better than Optical, but since Minix does not have Coax out, it's better than nothing.
> 
> Provided your DAC can support ALL audio format from the BluRay like DTS etc, OR
> ...


 
 Thanks for the quick reply.
  
 Got it, I know why it didn't work before, I need to change the output format on the bluray to 2 channel like you.
  
 Do you know of any DAC that can do the DTS/Dolby Digital?  I don't think I've ever seen one that could but then again never really looked for something like it.


----------



## RedBull

No problem David.
  
 If I can suggest, I won't chase for DAC that can support all these audio format. 
 The format change every now and then your DAC will be obsolete very soon.
  
 I let my media player do the update of the Codec through Internet and I enjoy the 2 channel output. 
 A little compromise but save money for other amps or headphones, more fun.


----------



## DavidA

Good point about format changing.
  
 Thanks for the help.


----------



## RedBull

Yup. Enjoy your movies via headphones.
I prefer it to my 5.1 Yamaha home theatre any time of the day.


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Yup. Enjoy your movies via headphones.
> I prefer it to my 5.1 Yamaha home theatre any time of the day.


 

 Just tired my lanai bluray and it worked with my Teac ah-01, coax connection, HD-700, wow, pretty good surround from headphone, went back to old Star Wars 4: A New Hope, the beginning when the Imperial ship passed over.  Thanks RedBull!


----------



## RedBull

Told you so 
I can hear details that i never heard before from my 5.1 systems. Well maybe less bass grunt compared to spekers with sub, but i can exchange that with much more delicate detail. So enveloping.


----------



## RedBull

Did you tried with Ember David?


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Did you tried with Ember David?


 

 Can't use the Ember with the AH-01, no line out jacks.  I'm going to try moving my UD-301 out to the lanai as it has line out jacks, will post back later, on a golf trip to maui with girlfriend.  lol posting from my phone while waiting to tee off.


----------



## RedBull

Nice! Enjoy your trip


----------



## zeed

Hi here!
  
 No news after this video?
  

  
 Do you have any clue about when you will post a new video @DigitalFreak?


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Nice! Enjoy your trip


 

 Connected my blueray to the UD-301 and then the ember, movies with HD-700 is freaky realistic.  Thanks for the tip


----------



## RedBull

Feels like in the scene with the movie.
Holographic soundstage really helps here.


----------



## Boogirl

Hi Forum
  
 I currently own the NFB11 & NFB15, and the Q701 & K712 Pro.
  
 I would like to try out tube amping and am looking at either the Lyr 2 or the Project Ember to pair with the above equipment.
  
 From going through the forums it would appear that both the Lyr 2 and the Project Ember are really good hybrids that work wonders for both the Q701s and the K712s.
  
  
 On first glance, the Project Ember seems a very attractive option:
  
 – The Project Ember (including UK shipping) works out about £100 cheaper than the Lyr 2
 – The Project Ember only needs 1 tube as opposed to 2 tubes, and the tube is really easy to change 
 – The Project Ember is said to match wonderfully with Qs and the Ks, with the appropriate tube
  
 However, I am not just interested in functionality or the price; I am interested in sound quality. One thing I noticed was that the Project Ember is *not* an A Class amp, whereas the Schiit Lyr 2 *is *one – I was therefore wondering whether the Lyr 2's A Class status makes it better somehow than the Project Ember's non- A Class status, and if so, then how exactly?
  
 There is also the point that the Lyr 2 uses two tubes, whereas Project Ember only uses one. I was wondering therefore what were the pros and cons of one tube hybrids vs two tube hybrids?
  
 Clearly, I can see that the Project Ember would be the cheaper option down the line once I start tube rolling, since only a single tube would be required. However, would only having one tube as opposed to two affect the sound in some way? If it does, would someone please be able to explain to me how?
  
  
 Thanks for reading my ramblings and I hope someone can help!


----------



## DigitalFreak

Video review is live folks


----------



## money4me247

Boogirl, crossposted a response in the other thread.


----------



## connieflyer

In regards to the differences between Lyr 2 and Ember Solderdude over at Project Ember posted this, he and Jeremy designed the Ember.  his post is here....http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=43 about half way down the page.
Quote




  


Post by solderdude on Jan 12, 2015 at 4:01pm Asgard 2 (solid state)
 Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.1db, 2Hz-400KHz, -3dB
 Max Power, 32 ohms: 1.0W
 Max Power, 50 ohms: 1.0W
 Max Power, 300 ohms: 380mW
 Max Power, 600 ohms: 190mW
 Output Impedance: 2 ohms
 Gain: Hi = 6 (15.6db) or Lo = 1.5 (3.5db)
 Power Consumption: 30W

 Ember: (tube hybrid non feedback)
 Frequency Response: 3Hz-65Khz, -0.5db, 1.5Hz-120KHz, -3dB
 Max Power, 32 ohms: 1.0W
 Max Power, 50 ohms: 1.5W
 Max Power, 300 ohms: 700mW
 Max Power, 600 ohms: 380mW
 Output Impedance: 0.1, 35 and 120 Ohms (selectable)
 Gain: depends on gain module and tube.
 Power Consumption: 12W

 Lyr2 (tube hybrid)
 frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.1db 1Hz-300KHz, -3dB
 Max Power, 32 ohms: 6.0W
 Max Power, 50 ohms: 4.0W
 Max Power, 300 ohms: 660mW
 Max Power, 600 ohms: 330mW
 Output Impedance:0.4 ohms (Lo), 1.5 ohms (Hi)
 Power Consumption: 30W

 Vali: (tube hybrid, fixed tube)
 Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.2db, 5Hz-100KHz, -3dB
 Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 650mW RMS per channel
 Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 550mW RMS per channel
 Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 220mW RMS per channel
 Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 115mW RMS per channel
 Output Impedance: 6.5 ohms (fixed)
 Gain: 4 (12db)
 Power Consumption: 8W


 1: I wouldn't but others could/can.

 2: In *power* Asgard 2 is are comparable, the Ember is more powerfull for higher imp headphones but only by 3dB. The Lyr2 is MUCH more powerful
 The question is if power is that important. Owning T50RP's, modified, I know you will never even reach 1W before that your ears will hurt.
 It has to do with harmonics spread and how the distortion character changes at higher levels.

 3: See specs above, Lyr 2 ****s all over Ember power wise... not that you will ever reach those levels, you might with the HE-6 though.
 For *high impedance headphones* the Lyr2 and Ember are *equally powerfull*, the *Lyr2* only is more powerful in *low impedance headphones*.
 Wouldn't want to connect a 0.1W portable headphone to the Lyr2 though.
 One error in volume while having the phones on your table and the headphone is gone.
 The Ember has a nicer 'spread' of power over the whole range of headphone impedances.

 If you have the Asgard 2 there is little reason to buy Ember when it concerns *output power*.
 The advantages of Ember is that it may be a better match when owning multiple headphones because of the adjustable output R (not in your case).
 Looks may also be a reason.
 Tube swapping is really easy with auto bias and auto heater select. No hassle.
 Yes some dust will settle but is easy to remove if needed.
 Asgard 2, of course, doesn't have any tubes to swap nor the typical 'tube sound'.

 Jeremy is reworking the Ember PCB and is adding the supercharger on the board.
 It will be the same amp so no audible differences/improvements.
 Just more convenient out of the box as it can take 1A heaters.

 Something new is in the works...
 Ember had a baby brother... the Starlight.
 At first it started out as a Starlight replacement that would be even cheaper.
 Why compromise was the idea so it 'grew' into this design.
 Now it will have a sybling inbetween the Ember and Starlight.
 Starlight may eventually disappear, we don't know yet.
 It (Project Solstice) will have less functions than Ember and less power for higher impedance headphones and about the same power as Ember for low imp headphones.
 Also it can take 7V tubes, 6V and 12V tubes and is suited for 6SN7 and 12SN7 tubes.
 It will have autobias but manual heater select, it can not function as a pre-amp and the input C can not be bypassed.
 It will have 3 output R's 0.1, 33, 68
 Still in testing phase though and no idea if and when it will be launched, some things still need to be tweaked.
 Price will be between Ember and starlight.

 Read more: http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=66#ixzz3WTyUDREw​


----------



## ericr

FWIW, owned the Asgard 2 and consider it a very good amp. Yet once I bought the Ember (other than a couple of times to compare them again) the Asgard sat unused for nearly a year. Recently sold the Asgard.


----------



## DavidA

ericr said:


> FWIW, owned the Asgard 2 and consider it a very good amp. Yet once I bought the Ember (other than a couple of times to compare them again) the Asgard sat unused for nearly a year. Recently sold the Asgard.


 
 Same here, once I got the Ember and some better tubes for my Lyr2 the Asgard2 just sat on my shelf, my son has it now but he compared it to his Teac UD-301 and said the next time he comes over the Asgard2 is coming back.


----------



## RedBull

@ Connie, i think the power of ember with 0.1 ohm output impedance is 2.4 wpc and not 1.5 wpc?
See here:
http://www.garage1217.com/POWERSPECS/Ember.png


----------



## money4me247

redbull said:


> @ Connie, i think the power of ember with 0.1 ohm output impedance is 2.4 wpc and not 1.5 wpc?
> See here:
> http://www.garage1217.com/POWERSPECS/Ember.png


 
@connieflyer, at 64 ohms, the power rating for the ember is 2.4 rms watts per channel.


----------



## connieflyer

Just using the info from the designers page.  Great amp, using the 6SN7 adapter for it now, won't be going back to 9 pin tubes at all now, will have to sell off my remaining 9 pins  a couple of Amperex bugle boy 12at7's a telefunken 12at7 and a Mullard 12AT7 AND 12AX7 and a amperex 12ax7 b boy.  The 6SN7 tubes have taken over for me now that I have the Ken-Rad VT231 I am done buying tubes for awhile, I hope.


----------



## RedBull

@connieflyer, do you think Mullard 12AT7 is a quite noisy tube?


----------



## connieflyer

With the Ember I have not found it to be noisy at all the one I have I got from Brent Jesse it is a cv4024, the 6681 Mullard is also quiet.  I liked the Mullards and Amperex tubes and went through a lot of tubes to get to these that I saved and used, but a week after getting the two bugle boy 12at7's I tried the 6SN7 adapter and like the new tubes much better.


----------



## Boogirl

connieflyer said:


> In regards to the differences between Lyr 2 and Ember Solderdude over at Project Ember posted this, he and Jeremy designed the Ember.  his post is here....http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=43 about half way down the page.


 
 Thank you Connie for alerting me to this info. I found it very helpful.
  
 Based on what Solderdude has written, it seems that Lyr 2 would be the better choice instead of the Ember since the Lyr 2 offers more power into low impedance headphones such as the 64ohm inefficient Q701s & K712s.
 Am I correct to think this?


----------



## Solrighal

You are correct but it's worth remembering that both amps provide more than enough power.


----------



## heart banger-97

Hey guys,
 Who knows that how much power Ember can feed to a 50 ohm headphone (obviously he6 )? 2 watts?
 Anyone use Ember with he6?


----------



## kothganesh

heart banger-97 said:


> Hey guys,
> Who knows that how much power Ember can feed to a 50 ohm headphone (obviously he6 )? 2 watts?
> Anyone use Ember with he6?



Yep... Sounds better than average but the 6 is better driven with power amps


----------



## SuperU

boogirl said:


> Thank you Connie for alerting me to this info. I found it very helpful.
> 
> Based on what Solderdude has written, it seems that Lyr 2 would be the better choice instead of the Ember since the Lyr 2 offers more power into low impedance headphones such as the 64ohm inefficient Q701s & K712s.
> Am I correct to think this?


 
 redacted


----------



## RedBull

connieflyer said:


> With the Ember I have not found it to be noisy at all the one I have I got from Brent Jesse it is a cv4024, the 6681 Mullard is also quiet.  I liked the Mullards and Amperex tubes and went through a lot of tubes to get to these that I saved and used, but a week after getting the two bugle boy 12at7's I tried the 6SN7 adapter and like the new tubes much better.




Strange, my cv4024 is noisy, while the rest are quite. Maybe due to my tube socket saver.

Do you guys need to use socket saver? Pr doesn't matter? 
Does it affect the sound?


----------



## DigitalFreak

heart banger-97 said:


> Hey guys,
> Who knows that how much power Ember can feed to a 50 ohm headphone (obviously he6 )? 2 watts?
> Anyone use Ember with he6?


 
 In the next little while I'm gonna be borrowing my Ember to a friend who owns the HE-6, he's a fellow head-fier and goes by the handle Armaegis. Once he gets some time with the amp I'm pretty sure he'll probably be on this thread posting his impressions.


----------



## connieflyer

redbull said:


> Strange, my cv4024 is noisy, while the rest are quite. Maybe due to my tube socket saver.
> 
> Do you guys need to use socket saver? Pr doesn't matter?
> Does it affect the sound?


 

 RedBull I used to use a socket saver when I used the 9 pin tubes, it helped to get a little more altitude to change the tube easier.  Now almost exclusively use the 6Sn7's I don't use the socket saver.  Seemed like a little too much between the tube and circuit, may or may not matter but with the size of the 6Sn7's it is easy to swap tubes.


----------



## RedBull

Or i get a not so good socket saver.
I prefer to pull 6sn7 tubes as they have metal at the base so i don't have to worry breaking the glass


----------



## DavidA

I don't use a socket saver with the Ember, girlfriend says it blocks the light from illuminating the bottom of the tube, lol.
 Kidding aside, its really easy to remove and replace a tube.
 Using socket saver with Lyr2 however, had a hard time getting a grip on the tubes.  Used Deoxit gold and it made pulling and inserting tubes really easy.


----------



## RedBull

I see. Ya, i agree, it blocks the light, suddenly my amp is not glowing anymore.
I am not sure how reliable is the tube socket of the amp? Has anyone experience problem with the socket itself? I personally never heard/read that.


----------



## Solrighal

Project Ember Mk2


----------



## Jakkal

solrighal said:


> Project Ember Mk2


 
  
 Look awesome. Enjoy it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Is it rev. 2.0 ?


----------



## Solrighal

jakkal said:


> Look awesome. Enjoy it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes. There's no real difference in sound quality I think other than the circuits around the input capacitor by-pass have been modified to remove the scratchiness experienced with the previous version.


----------



## RedBull

How can i tell mine is rev 2.0 or not?


----------



## Jakkal

redbull said:


> How can i tell mine is rev 2.0 or not?


 
  
 Look at the top right corner of the PCB, it should be something like "Project Ember R1.0" or R2.0 for rev. 2.
  


solrighal said:


> Yes. There's no real difference in sound quality I think other than the circuits around the input capacitor by-pass have been modified to remove the scratchiness experienced with the previous version.


 
  
 Nice. How is the power into HD650 now with the new input attenuation module?


----------



## RedBull

Will check right away Jakkal. Thanks


----------



## Solrighal

jakkal said:


> Look at the top right corner of the PCB, it should be something like "Project Ember R1.0" or R2.0 for rev. 2.
> 
> 
> Nice. How is the power into HD650 now with the new input attenuation module?




That was my one complaint with the original, the fact that the volume was maxed for my taste at around the 10 o'clock position. This new version sees the volume hit the sweet spot at around the 1 o'clock position. Perfect. 

It also has the supercharger built-in to the PCB now as standard. That makes this new model even better value for money.


----------



## RedBull

Mine is version 1.

How's input attenuation work? Like v200 input gain control?


----------



## Solrighal

redbull said:


> Mine is version 1.
> 
> How's input attenuation work? Like v200 input gain control?


 
  
 Honestly? I've no idea how it works. I think there will be different gain modules but I'm not certain. Sorry. All I know is that out of the box it pairs superbly with the 650's.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello @Zorrofox , your recommendation for the Ember with the HD 650 is leading me to consider this Ember when I was just about to get a Little Dot MK4 amp. So if you, or anybody here would answer these questions, that would be great! Also if my question has already been answered, feel free to just send me a link to the answer.
  

 How would you compare the (current version) Project Ember to the Little Dot MK 3 or 4? 
     And if one is better than the other than why?
I've noticed the LD amp has 2 tubes and the Ember uses only one tube that is larger. Can the one larger tube provide equally good results as two tubes?
How do I change the gain settings on the Ember? (do I flip a switch, or do I have to open it up?)
between these two amps, which one would drive the following headphones best? (HD 650, DT 150, HE 6)
  
 Thanks much folks


----------



## Solrighal

decentlevi said:


> Hello @Zorrofox , your recommendation for the Ember with the HD 650 is leading me to consider this Ember when I was just about to get a Little Dot MK4 amp. So if you, or anybody here would answer these questions, that would be great! Also if my question has already been answered, feel free to just send me a link to the answer.
> 
> 
> How would you compare the (current version) Project Ember to the Little Dot MK 3 or 4?
> ...


 
  
 I can't really answer your first question as I've never heard LD amps. People who use them seem to like them though.
  
 The Project Ember is a valve hybrid. The output stage is still op-amps but the valve is used to 'season' the sound, if you see what I mean. One benefit of this design is that you only need to source one valve instead of matched pairs.
  
 All the settings are changed by simply moving jumpers on pins. The two gain settings are to the rear & require the top-plate to be removed. There are 4 knurled top-nuts to allow yo to do this easily. It takes less than 15 seconds. Low gain has been enough to drive everything I've thrown at it though so you'll not be changing that often. While you're in there you have the option of by-passing the input capacitors which, at least to my ears, opens up the sound-stage just that bit more. This was also possible in the previous version of the Ember but often resulted in a scratchy volume pot as the level was adjusted. That circuit has now been redesigned and that scratchiness is gone completely. You also need the top-plate removed in order to adjust the colour of the LED below the valve. This is done with a small jeweller's screwdriver adjusting the three colour 'pots' - RGB.
  
 With the top- plate in-situ you also have the option of adjusting the output resistance, again by moving jumpers on pins between three settings, Low, Medium & High. I use low for my HD 650 & I'd imagine it might be the same for the DT150 too. Your HE6 might need these jumpers set to medium or even high. Basically, from my understanding what this determines is just how much the valve is allowed to 'colour' the sound. On the high setting you're hearing the valve in all it's glory. This can be a good or a bad thing depending on your choice of valve.
  
 This of course all depends on your choice of valve too. Some are surprisingly neutral while others are unmistakeable.
  
 The previous Ember had the option of a supercharger module which allows the use of high current valves. This could either have ben ordered & fitted at the time or retro-fitted at a later date. Project Ember Mk2 comes with this circuitry as standard so your choice of valves is huge.
  
 Garage 1217 will also sell you an adapter which allows the Ember to use the larger 6SN7 valves.
  
 I have to say the build quality is outstanding!
  
 You'll find far more information on the Ember here..
  
 http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember
  
 As well as here..
  
 http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_004.htm
  
 Good luck.
  
 Gordon.


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> Hello @Zorrofox , your recommendation for the Ember with the HD 650 is leading me to consider this Ember when I was just about to get a Little Dot MK4 amp. So if you, or anybody here would answer these questions, that would be great! Also if my question has already been answered, feel free to just send me a link to the answer.
> 
> 
> How would you compare the (current version) Project Ember to the Little Dot MK 3 or 4?
> ...


 
 I was reading the Little Dot Mk4 specs and it will output the following:
 SEPP (Singled-ended Push Pull) OTL in Class-A
 Frequency response: 10 hz~100 Khz (-1dB)
 THD+N: 0.1% (100 mW @ 300 ohm)
 Power Output:
 500 mW @ 300/600 ohm
 300 mW @ 120 ohm
 100 mW @ 32 ohm
  
 The Ember:





 Based on the above, they would be similar in power for the HD-650 (300ohm) and DT-150 (250ohm), for the HE-6 however which is a 50ohm headphone the Ember will be between 400mW and 2W while the Mk4 will somewhere between 150-250mW, based on rough interpolation.
  
 Another thing to look at is the output resistance/impedance setting as I have found this will change the damping factor and thus alter the sound, this can be subtle to drastic depending on the headphone and tube in use.
 As @Zorrofox has informed me the setting for resistance is partly tube dependent along with the impedance of the headphone.
  
 Best way I can say how good I think the Ember is I'm probably going to get a second one (new Mk2), giving my girlfriend the old one and using the new one.  I also have a Lyr2, Asgard2, Teac UD-301, Teac AH-01, Magni, and currently building a BH Crack.  Hopefully with the completion of the Crack I'll have reached my end game with Amps as I've heard a WA7, V200, Eddie Current (forgot model), Burson, and a few others and they didn't seem to give any better performance IMO for how and what I listen to.
  
 Good luck, David A


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello @Zorrofox and @DavidA - thanks very much for your tech. info. and I will definitely be looking into it more later. For now though just a quick tech question or two: by "valve" are you referring to the tube connection? And by moving the jumpers on pins, does this refer to flipping a small switch on the circuit board? I'll check out some of the manual too. Thanks


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> Hello @Zorrofox and @DavidA - thanks very much for your tech. info. and I will definitely be looking into it more later. For now though just a quick tech question or two: by "valve" are you referring to the tube connection? And by moving the jumpers on pins, does this refer to flipping a small switch on the circuit board? I'll check out some of the manual too. Thanks


 

 Valve = tube
 For the gain: jumpers are located on the right side in the back, see below.  The green light is the LED below the tube

  
 For the resistance/impedance: jumpers are located on both side of the Ember, right behind the volume on the right and behind the 1/4 jack on the left.
 Left side shown below

 how this helps


----------



## Solrighal

decentlevi said:


> Hello @Zorrofox and @DavidA - thanks very much for your tech. info. and I will definitely be looking into it more later. For now though just a quick tech question or two: by "valve" are you referring to the tube connection? And by moving the jumpers on pins, does this refer to flipping a small switch on the circuit board? I'll check out some of the manual too. Thanks


 
  
 Hi mate,
  
 First off, valves & tubes are the same thing. Valve is the correct term & tube is the American term.
  
 Here's a pic from the manual that shows what David's trying to describe..
  


 Hopefully posting that image isn't breaking some kind of copyright but I'm sure Jeremy & Frans will understand why I'm doing it.
  
 Changing jumper settings is easy. Don't worry about it. It's not something that you'll be doing all that often anyway.
  
 I hope this helps.
  
 Gordon.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello guys, I'm pretty much sold on the Project Ember, but unsure whether I should get version 2 or not. The P.E. version 2 features a supercharger that allows it to use either 6 or 12volt high current deman tubes (the owner told me this).
  
 But I am totally lost as to what is the advantage of being able to use 6 vs. 12 volt tubes? (*what differences do the 6 vs. 12 volt tubes make to the sound if anything? / which more expensive? / which type of tube is used on P.E. version 1?*)
  
 Also you may be surprised, but after doing some insane amount of research yesterday looking at too many different tube amps, it actually seems that the P.E. amp is supposed to out-perform all others in this general price range; in terms of versatility being able to properly drive low and high impendence headphones... the only issue I've noticed by other users of the P.E. is that some seem to say the sound isn't quite as "clean" as it could be - any thoughts on that?* Maybe a specific tube and / or DAC could clear that right up*.
  
  
 Edit: the reason I'm so interested to know if the supercharger is worth it or not is because the price difference is $60 more for the version 2


----------



## Asr

Going forward only the Ember II will be offered and has the Supercharger built-in anyway for a reduced price (check their News Blog), so I'm not totally sure why you're asking if you're getting a new unit. I can't even see on the site where it's possible to order a v1 anymore. That said, the Supercharger just allows you to use a wider variety of tubes, there's no real objective advantage of 6V vs 12V tubes (the amp comes stock with a 12V tube), nor is one necessarily cheaper than the other. It's a great feature for those who like to experiment with tube-rolling and is intended to make that easier.
  
 Also pretty much all tubes add distortion of some kind, so it's unlikely that you'd get a stereotypically solid-state-clean sound from the Ember by rolling in a different tube.


----------



## DecentLevi

I just received a response from the owner or P.E. and thought you guys may find it helpful:
  
_"Hello! Per your questions:
 - Ember 2 is actually cheaper than the old SC model. We do not offer discounts as we already sell for the lowest price possible

 The new version 2 Ember features:
 - Line out disconnect when using headphones
 - Input attenuation module for customizing input levels (not needed most of the time)
 - Supercharger circuit built into the amplifier
 - Revised layout and design

 All of our designs can use both 6 or 12v miniature dual triode tubes. This just gives more options for tube rolling. Ember is auto sensing so just plug a compatible tube in and it will change settings automatically! 6v or 12v does not mean either is better, just different voltages on the heater circuit is all"_
  
 Thanks Asr for your help. I was asking about the P.E. version 1 because there are still some floating around new & used on the likes of eBay, and I would be really stretched thin to afford $350 for version 2 + ad'll tubes. I could just use the older posts in the tube rolling thread to find a suitable tube for the old version.
  
 But from this email, I still don't know what a supercharger is or if the newer version makes much difference, and contrary to what he said I can find the old one for about $60 less.


----------



## Asr

The Ember v1 w/ Supercharger was about $365, so the Ember v2 is actually a bit cheaper, like what he said.
  
 If you're referring to the $315 Ember v1 amps on eBay, those are kits, not pre-built amps. You have to assemble & solder them yourself. The $350 Ember v2 would come pre-built if you bought one (or alternately you get can an Ember v2 kit for $300, if you're able to build it yourself).
  
 The differences for v2 don't really have anything to do with sound, just features. And the Supercharger just allows you to use 6V tubes—you can't really use them without it.
  
 If you don't intend on rolling tubes, it's actually kind of pointless to get the Ember. It was supposedly designed to roll tubes. You might as well get the Polaris for less cost in that case.


----------



## ericr

asr said:


> ...And the Supercharger just allows you to use 6V tubes—you can't really use them without it.
> 
> If you don't intend on rolling tubes, it's actually kind of pointless to get the Ember. It was supposedly designed to roll tubes. You might as well get the Polaris for less cost in that case.




The original R1 Ember (without the optional Supercharger) can use both 6v & 12v tubes just fine. Garage1217 created the Supercharger to enable use of tubes needing higher current than the original Ember could supply and thus expand the types of tubes supported (12BH7, etc.)

IMO, the Ember with a good 6SN7 or 6CG7 sounds better than the Polaris (own both). However you need to add the cost of said tube to the cost equation.

Also, higher impedance full-size headphones (i.e. Senn & Beyer) should sound better at the medium or high output impedance setting, and multi-armature IEMs are driven spectacularly at the low impedance setting (0.1 Ohms).


----------



## Johan-71

The supercharger allows you to use tubes that will draw up to 1000mA on the heater.
Without the supercharger you're limited to 500mA.
If you would like to use 12bh7 that needs 900mA on the heater you need the super charger.
I have V1 but bought the SC and soldered in myself.
If you're in to tube rolling I would recommend the SC, or just buy V2 and you're ready to go. 
You may take a look at the tuberolling tread and see if you can find yourself something useful about preferred sound signature.
I'm using a Ken-rad VT 231 (6SN7 octal family) and that's the second tube that stayed in for more than a month. 
The first was a Sylvania 12BH7.

PS. Beware of the rolling, it's addictive. DS

Johan


----------



## Jakkal

decentlevi said:


> I just received a response from the owner or P.E. and thought you guys may find it helpful:
> 
> _"Hello! Per your questions:
> - Ember 2 is actually cheaper than the old SC model. We do not offer discounts as we already sell for the lowest price possible
> ...


 
  
 I'll advise you to go for version 2 because of the added input attenuation module. The power of the Ember v.1 was a bit too much IMO for some headphones including high impedance ones like Senn HD 650. With the new module the Ember will be more useful with low impedance phones as well. When you add to that and the supercharger I think is well worth it.


----------



## ericr

^^^ Good input. Jeremy modified the low gain on my R1 Ember to further drop the gain for use with IEMs. With the R2 you can find tune the low gain up or down by just changing modules - pretty cool!


----------



## DecentLevi

jakkal said:


> I'll advise you to go for version 2 because of the added input attenuation module. The power of the Ember v.1 was a bit too much IMO for some headphones including high impedance ones like Senn HD 650. With the new module the Ember will be more useful with low impedance phones as well. When you add to that and the supercharger I think is well worth it.


 
 That's very interesting. In what way would you describe that effects the sound from the Ember giving it too much power? Too fast, or too distorted, etc? I always thought more powah is better


----------



## Solrighal

That's not how it works. You still only have the choice of low & high gain. 

What the attenuation module allows is finer level control on the volume knob. 

On the first Ember my HD650's were getting very loud withe the volume control at around the 10 o'clock position. That was on low gain. 

On the Mk2, also on low gain, my max is around 2 o'clock. 

This allows for much finer control of the volume even though the actual gain is the same. 

I love it! 

Another change that hasn't been mentioned by anyone is the removal of the constantly illuminated power LED at the rear of the amp. There's simply no need for it since the LED already underneath the valve already tells you the power is on. 

These probably all sound like small things but the attention to detail has to be admired. Makes for a great user experience. 

Don't even start me on how the 3-way output impedance options can be used to fine tune the sound of the actual valve itself. 

Awesome!


----------



## Jakkal

decentlevi said:


> That's very interesting. In what way would you describe that effects the sound from the Ember giving it too much power? Too fast, or too distorted, etc? I always thought more powah is better


 
 Zorrofox explained it excellent. It was getting too loud for me at around 9 o'clock on the volume pot. With the new attenuation module should be perfect.


----------



## skyline315

Finally got a chance to audition the Ember, thanks to Thujone.

 First off, Jeremy over at garage amps is fantastic.  When the amp arrived at my house it had a damaged power switch (thanks USPS).  Jeremy sent me a pre-paid shipping label and had the thing back to me in under a week, fully fixed and ready to go.

 My chain has been Modi 2 U --> Vali --> HE-500.  With the Ember, the majority of my listening was done with the stock tube.  It reminded me of the Vali in that you could certainly tell you were listening to a tube amp, but not in a syrupy/smeared sort of way.  

 I've always enjoyed the 500s...first from my Asgard, and then from the Vali.  I still maintain that the Vali is a good match for them.  That said, the power provided by the Ember takes them to another level.  In short, it grabs the 500s by the balls and makes them sing.  Ample power, while still retaining a very clean/refined sound.  

 When I first received the amp, it was set to medium impedance and low gain.  I had to get to about 12 oclock on the volume dial to get to a place I liked.  And, while it was good, I wasn't blown away.  It was a step up from the Vali in terms of clarity.  I could hear deeper into recordings and notice a lot more tiny detail than I could with the Vali.  But, at nearly 3x the price?  That was a tough sell for me.

 After contacting Jeremy, though, he recommended low impedance and high gain.  That did it.  More authority in the bass, more drum impact, driving guitars...all the good stuff.  And still, it sounded clean, polished, and refined.  My only complaint here is that there wasn't enough play with the volume...9 oclock was pretty much it.  11 oclock on really uncompressed music...classical, choral, etc.  Apparently one of the features of the new Ember 2 is the ability to readjust the volume knob range via an input attenuation module.  Pretty awesome feature.

 Speaking of customizable, you can also adjust the impedance as I mentioned earlier, the gain, and whether or not you want to bypass the input caps for a purer signal.  All of these settings can be changed on the fly without turning off the amp, which makes A/B listening very easy to do.  And, while it has nothing to do with sound, you can also change the color of the LED under the tube, or just turn it off completely.  

 These all worked well.  I plugged in my DT1350s, and of course had tons of hiss due to the high gain/low impedance.  So, I switched to high impedance/low gain, and the 1350s sounded great.  There was still not a pure black background, but the background noise was barely audible with the music paused.  Already an advantage over the Vali, which doesn't play nicely with those particular headphones.

 The cap bypass feature was interesting.  It may be placebo, but the sound did seem to improve when the caps were bypassed.  Sadly, though, the volume knob became very noisy when adjusting the volume which caused me to go back to using the input caps.  According to Jeremy, this can be very tube dependent with some being far noisier than others.  There was also a little scratching with my 1350s by the way, even when going through the input caps.   

 All in all, the Ember is now on my list.  Once I save up the cash, I plan to add it to my lineup.  I wish I had a pair of 250-300 ohm headphones to try on them, but I have to imagine they would sound fantastic with all of the tuning options that the Ember provides.  I'm looking forward to hearing more impressions from more experienced ears.  It's a real shame there isn't more talk of these amps.  Here's hoping that will change soon.


----------



## richard51

skyline315 said:


> Finally got a chance to audition the Ember, thanks to Thujone.
> 
> First off, Jeremy over at garage amps is fantastic.  When the amp arrived at my house it had a damaged power switch (thanks USPS).  Jeremy sent me a pre-paid shipping label and had the thing back to me in under a week, fully fixed and ready to go.
> 
> ...


 

 Welcome to the Ember crowd 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 an important remark :  very few people had listen to the potential of the Ember sound, for example i had not listen to a big part of his potential before i had listen to the 6sn7 family tube.... Now i am pretty sure that the potential will be more audible with the 7193 tubes ( i had discover 9 unanimous review of this tube sound relatively to the 6sn7) Remember that the 6sn7 sound was by far superior to the standard tubes used without this adapter... in one word all review of the ember versus an other amp are of no signification for me if the reviewer  use standard tube...there is almost no  official review of the ember with the 6sn7 tube... an not one with the 7193 also....there are only some blissful customers who wrote their praise here  or there.... like you and me


----------



## Solrighal

I should point out that the scratchy volume pot you experienced after by-passing the input caps has been fixed on the NE Project Ember MkII. I own the latter & it's silent. 

It's also possible to attenuate the input gain so that you have more available travel on the pot with the MkII. Jeremy can clarify how that works because with my HD 650's all the action happens at between the 11 - 1 o'clock positions. Perfect! 

The MkII also comes with the supercharger mod built-in so the only additional expense would be if you wanted to buy the 6SN7 adapter. I find the 6SN7 family to be superior than stock. YMMV.


----------



## DavidA

richard51 said:


> Welcome to the Ember crowd
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Between you and @Zorrofox I'm really going to have to get the adapter, sorry wallet.


----------



## money4me247

davida said:


> Between you and @Zorrofox I'm really going to have to get the adapter, sorry wallet.


 
 though your wallet may hate you, I think your ears may thank you
  





 hope you enjoy it!


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> Between you and @Zorrofox
> I'm really going to have to get the adapter, sorry wallet.







money4me247 said:


> though your wallet may hate you, I think your ears may thank you
> 
> hope you enjoy it!




Aye, the 6SN7 is a much better valve to my ears. Possibly not all variants but when it works, it works very well indeed.


----------



## Amish

Being a past owner of the original Project Ember I have been missing it badly. Haven't heard a hybrid yet that could compete with it. So I contacted Jeremy early today and after discussing some tubes, the adapter and 6sn7 tubes I purchased a new Ember II with that 6sn7 adapter and a Sylvania red label black bottom triangle plates 6sn7. Really looking forward to sitting down with this on Saturday when it should arrive.
  
 I absolutely loved my old Ember but I really wanted the Bryston BHA-1 so I sold it to help fund the Bryston. As far as ss amps go the Bryston and LCD2 are a match made in heaven BUT I love me some lush, holographic music too and I dearly miss the Ember.
  
 Now my only crisis will be which amp to use on any given day. Ember II, Polaris or Bryston BHA-1. Life is hard.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, sorry if this is an obvious answer, but I don't understand what you meant about getting your Ember with "Sylvania red label black bottom triangle plates 6sn7". Do you mean you're getting an Ember with the metal plate with a larger hole to accommodate more types of tubes and a 6sn7 adapter? 

Also I was thinking I would like the look of the clear top so is it really necessary to get the metal top in order to accommodate most tube types? Someone else seems to say the 7193 tubes are the best, maybe those don't need the metal plate? Thanks guys and sorry for any cluelessness - still planning to get this as my first tube amp soon.


----------



## Solrighal

The new Ember comes with a top-plate already cut to accept valves which use the adapter. I think the whole is 34mm if I remember correctly. It doesn't matter if you order an acrylic or an aluminium top-plate as they're now all cut to this size.
  
 The 7193 valves still require the adapter so if you're buying an Ember you really should buy the adapter at the same time. I can't comment on the sound of the 7193's - you need a pair, btw - as I haven't heard them but the 6SN7 is a big improvement over the already good 9-pin valves.


----------



## Amish

decentlevi said:


> Hello, sorry if this is an obvious answer, but I don't understand what you meant about getting your Ember with "Sylvania red label black bottom triangle plates 6sn7". Do you mean you're getting an Ember with the metal plate with a larger hole to accommodate more types of tubes and a 6sn7 adapter?
> 
> Also I was thinking I would like the look of the clear top so is it really necessary to get the metal top in order to accommodate most tube types? Someone else seems to say the 7193 tubes are the best, maybe those don't need the metal plate? Thanks guys and sorry for any cluelessness - still planning to get this as my first tube amp soon.


 
 No. I meant that I bought that Sylvania red label tube to go along with the Ember II. I also bought the 6sn7 adapter so I can use that tube with the Ember. No plates required. Like Zorro already pointed out the Ember has a hole in the top cover large enough to accommodate the larger 6sn7 tube.
  
 The acrylic (clear top) is what I prefer as well. That is what I bought and it works fine with the adapters for larger tubes.
  
 I never liked the metal tops. When i first heard Jeremy was working on a metal case I assumed he was building an enclosed case. That I would prefer over the open design. But he didn't do that he just made top and bottom metal covers.
  
 I'd actually love to have a case designed and built to house the Ember. Something like a fully enclosed metal case with a window at the top that can be easily removed to make adjustments etc. At my company we have a guy that can do this for me...the design anyway but he is busy and I don't think designing me a case would be a priority. lol


----------



## connieflyer

Well I have to admit when I found out about the metal plates, I was not impressed either.  But after seeing some on different Embers, I decided to order them.  Very glad I did, they lookreally great with this amp. I have made a few alterations and give credit to a member on DIY Audio Heaven  http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember.  JGlatz the member I am speaking of, just after buying a very expensive Ken Rad 6SN7 VT 213 black top, and I was so glad I did,  love the sound.  Then this member, JGlatz brings out his version, he called it FrankenEmber, love at first site, it uses the 7193 tubes, single triodes.  Like it?


----------



## Amish

Yes. I'll take one please. lol


----------



## DecentLevi

I would probably prefer to go with the 6SN7 tubes because the 7193 tubes seem they must be so much more expensive... being so much larger and needing 2 tubes instead of 1... unless there is a substantial improvement in sound with them


----------



## connieflyer

7193 and 6sn7 tubes are the same physical size.  Prices are a little less for the 7193 but you need two. and the adapter.


----------



## DrikTheTroll

decentlevi said:


> I just received a response from the owner or P.E. and thought you guys may find it helpful:
> 
> _"Hello! Per your questions:
> - Ember 2 is actually cheaper than the old SC model. We do not offer discounts as we already sell for the lowest price possible
> ...


 
  
  
 Does anyone know what is meant by "input attenuation module" - exactly how would you use this feature? is it is configurable dip switches, components that you change yourself or an actual set of modules provided by the manufacturer. If it's the latter how many are they and what do they cost?


----------



## Amish

drikthetroll said:


> Does anyone know what is meant by "input attenuation module" - exactly how would you use this feature? is it is configurable dip switches, components that you change yourself or an actual set of modules provided by the manufacturer. If it's the latter how many are they and what do they cost?


 

 It is a set of jumpers that will adjust the gain. handy when using IEM's and such. You can change this via jumpers even while the amp is on.


----------



## Solrighal

amish said:


> It is a set of jumpers that will adjust the gain. handy when using IEM's and such. You can change this via jumpers even while the amp is on.




Is it? There are definitely two gain settings that are selected by moving jumpers, as you say, but there's also this attenuation module. I'm assuming we're talking about the MkII. 

I've asked Drik's question in the relevant place so hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will be along shortly to enlighten us.


----------



## Amish

solrighal said:


> Is it? There are definitely two gain settings that are selected by moving jumpers, as you say, but there's also this attenuation module. I'm assuming we're talking about the MkII.
> 
> I've asked Drik's question in the relevant place so hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will be along shortly to enlighten us.


 

 I have owned both the original Ember and now the mkII. The attenuation jumpers are for gain.
  
 There are no other gain jumpers on this amp. The other jumpers on the sides towards front are output resistance (which might seem like GAIN but it is not.)


----------



## DrikTheTroll

amish said:


> I have owned both the original Ember and now the mkII. The attenuation jumpers are for gain.
> 
> There are no other gain jumpers on this amp. The other jumpers on the sides towards front are output resistance (which might seem like GAIN but it is not.)


 
  
 Amish - thanks for sharing your experience.
  
 My confusion comes from the fact that the Garage website describes the input gain options for the Ember II as "2+Module" - for an implied 4 effective levels of input gain?
  
 Are you able to achieve 4 levels of input gain?
  
 Also if it's just another dip switch, why call it a module - seems a bit wonky.


----------



## Solrighal

amish said:


> I have owned both the original Ember and now the mkII. The attenuation jumpers are for gain.
> 
> There are no other gain jumpers on this amp. The other jumpers on the sides towards front are output resistance (which might seem like GAIN but it is not.)


 
  
  


drikthetroll said:


> Amish - thanks for sharing your experience.
> 
> My confusion comes from the fact that the Garage website describes the input gain options for the Ember II as "2+Module" - for an implied 4 effective levels of input gain?
> 
> ...


 
  
 No, as far as I know these are not the same thing. The input attenuation module exists purely to control the range on the volume control.


----------



## Amish

Well I'm not sure what to say but here is a snap shot of the Ember manual. This shows all of the jumpers and what they do. According to this the attenuator is a gain adjustment. Actually i think this drops the gain if I'm not mistaken.
  
 Can you show me where another gain switch is? Because I'm looking at my amp and I do not see any other jumpers for gain adjustment.


----------



## Solrighal

I assume we're not looking for jumpers though, that's why it's called a "module". I'm not at home at the moment Si I can't supply a photo but there is something extra at the rear of the MKII.


----------



## btrancho

solrighal said:


> I assume we're not looking for jumpers though, that's why it's called a "module". I'm not at home at the moment Si I can't supply a photo but there is something extra at the rear of the MKII.


 
 In the MKI version of the Ember there are 2 resistors at R26 that determine the low input gain when you switch the jumpers (JP2) from high to low.  In the MKII these fixed resistors have been replaced by DIP socket into which you can plug the "attenuation module".  The module looks like just another DIP socket into which a pair of resistors have been inserted.  This allows you to change the resistor value of the low gain setting to better match the sensitivity of your headphones.  You could conceivably have a number of modules (or replace the resistors in a single module, I don't know if these are soldered in or just inserted) to make changes easier as you change headphones over time.
  
 When JP2 jumpers are in the HG position on the MKI, it bypasses the low gain resistors. Changing the JP2 jumper to the LG position routes the signal through the low gain resistors.  On the MKll, it appears to do the same, only engaging or disengaging the "attenuation module", with the same result. 
  
 I converted my MKI to this system.  It involved kludging together custom DIP sockets as the spacing isn't designed for standard DIP sockets on the original pc board.  Once I was able to work that out I made three "modules" to match and have three values of resistors to swap in and out (20K - the original, 47.5K for much lower gain, and 33K for mid-low gain).  I'm keeping the 33K in there most of the time now as my headphone use is pretty static.  With the MKll this is much easier, as standard DIP sockets are dirt cheap and all you need is a few pairs of resistors of the correct value.  Jeremy at Garage 1217 gave me advice on the value to use when I first changed my low gain resistors.
  
 This is one of the reasons I enjoy building from kits as opposed to ready made.  It gives me a much better idea of what's going on.


----------



## Solrighal

btrancho said:


> In the MKI version of the Ember there are 2 resistors at R26 that determine the low input gain when you switch the jumpers (JP2) from high to low.  In the MKII these fixed resistors have been replaced by DIP socket into which you can plug the "attenuation module".  The module looks like just another DIP socket into which a pair of resistors have been inserted.  This allows you to change the resistor value of the low gain setting to better match the sensitivity of your headphones.  You could conceivably have a number of modules (or replace the resistors in a single module, I don't know if these are soldered in or just inserted) to make changes easier as you change headphones over time.
> 
> When JP2 jumpers are in the HG position on the MKI, it bypasses the low gain resistors. Changing the JP2 jumper to the LG position routes the signal through the low gain resistors.  On the MKll, it appears to do the same, only engaging or disengaging the "attenuation module", with the same result.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the clarification mate


----------



## jbarrentine

I now have an aluminum Polaris (1.2) and absolutely love it. I just wanted to say I can't imagine getting anything but an Ember should I feel the need to play with tubes. Garage1217 does great work. 
  
 With love, 
 Solid State Cousin


----------



## jaywillin

Sub


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

Any one have a picture of what the preset "white led" looks like on these? I can't seem to find a good picture of them anywhere, and it'd help me make a decision...


----------



## Solrighal

ryhi-figuy said:


> Any one have a picture of what the preset "white led" looks like on these? I can't seem to find a good picture of them anywhere, and it'd help me make a decision...


 
  
 It looks, well, white.
  
 It doesn't matter though. 30 second with the correct jeweller's screwdriver & it's any colour you like.


----------



## DavidA

ryhi-figuy said:


> Any one have a picture of what the preset "white led" looks like on these? I can't seem to find a good picture of them anywhere, and it'd help me make a decision...


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

solrighal said:


> It looks, well, white.
> 
> It doesn't matter though. 30 second with the correct jeweller's screwdriver & it's any colour you like.


 
  
 I'm actually considering getting the Solstice instead (no overflowing money here ....) and I don't think I can change it on that one.


davida said:


>


 
 Haha it's you again David...   Thanks! Looks just like what I want.


----------



## Solrighal

ryhi-figuy said:


> I'm actually considering getting the Solstice instead (no overflowing money here ....) and I don't think I can change it on that one.
> Haha it's you again David...   Thanks! Looks just like what I want.


 
  
 Ah yes, I see your problem. The LED can be swapped though, just not as easily as with the Ember. White looks good though, particularly with the acrylic top-plate, as in David's photo.


----------



## DavidA

Changing the color of the LED changes the sound, why do you think I got the Ember, LOL, just kidding.  Actually I think its why I haven't gotten the adapter to use 6SN7 tubes yet, it will block the LED some what, changing the color really helps the girlfriend approval factor.


----------



## Solrighal

I hate to break it to you but using the adapter blocks the LED _completely_. It's the only down-side but it's a very small price to pay in my opinion.


----------



## Amish

I see my LED light no problem with adapter. The light just shoots out the sides! lol


----------



## Solrighal

Point. Missed.


----------



## money4me247

solrighal said:


> Point. Missed.


 
 don't worry, he picked the project ember to smooth out treble peaks of his headphones so the missing the point was the whole point!  =P


----------



## DavidA

Quote:



solrighal said:


> I hate to break it to you but using the adapter blocks the LED _completely_. It's the only down-side but it's a very small price to pay in my opinion.


 
  
 Quote:


amish said:


> I see my LED light no problem with adapter. The light just shoots out the sides! lol


 
  


solrighal said:


> Point. Missed.


 

 I think he is saying that the light from the LED shows from the sides of the adapter and is not completely blocked.


----------



## Amish

davida said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> I think he is saying that the light from the LED shows from the sides of the adapter and is not completely blocked.


 

 Give the man a prize!
  
 And thanks.


----------



## DavidA




----------



## Solrighal

Well yes, of course, but the USP is surely that it will illuminate through the valve itself. Using the adapter & octal valves prevents this from happening. Plus, with the aluminium top-plate the LED is all but invisible.
  
 Just sayin'.


----------



## Amish

I don't have the metal top plate. Acrylic top plate here and I get a nice glow from the LED with adapter and 6sn7 tube in.


----------



## Solrighal

amish said:


> I don't have the metal top plate. Acrylic top plate here and I get a nice glow from the LED with adapter and 6sn7 tube in.


 
  
 Yeah, the acrylic option is definitely the one to go for as regards the LED. I'm going to buy one to supplement my metal one, just to ring the changes.


----------



## toddrhodes

Looking for a little help - I picked up a set of HD650's on the FS/FT forums here, and will be buying a set of HE400s from a friend in July. Given these new cans, in addition to my current Grado SR80i's, my amplification needs will be changing quickly. I'm a Schiit guy through and through, but everything I'm reading about Ember says it's just a better product so hey, cool with me. For reference, I'm using a Bravo V2 from Amazon for now.
  
 So, I want to buy the acrylic Ember and eventually roll tubes in it. So I will get the 6SN7 adapater, but do I/should I also buy the supercharger mod? I'm very new to tube rolling so with that, any suggestions for a good 6SN7 tube are appreciated. I generally listen to classic rock, metal, rock, and some classical music, all of which can get fatiguing over long periods on a bright system so I prefer warm, punchy music if that helps.
  
 Thanks for any suggestions, and lastly, while I have DIY'd my own home speakers and crossovers, I won't be going the DIY route here. If I ultimately want the 6SN7 tube AND if I need the supercharger, is it best to just get everything done at once, before it ships from Garage1217?


----------



## connieflyer

Hi, the new version of Ember comes with the supercharger installed, you can and should order the 6sn7 adapter at that time as you will want it sooner or later.  I started out with the 9pin miniture tubes and moved on the the 6sn7 tubes, these are 8 pin octal base, and think they are the best match, with a more open presentation, I am currently using an adapter on top of the 6sn7 adapter with 7193 single triode tubes.  It has been named, not officially of course, the FrankenEmber.  This was started by member JGlatz see the bottom of this page.....http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=77..and I think this is about the best I have heard, with this amp.  Using two matched 1943 KenRad 7193's and hopefully JGlatz does not come up with anything else for awhile!  Just goes to show how versatile this amp is.  I am using with 650's as well and the presentation is excellent.  Awaiting the headphone filters to be offered by Garage1217 soon.  You said you were a Shiltz guy, hopefully we can change your mind!.


----------



## toddrhodes

That would certainly grab some looks on my desk at work, lol. I already get "gawkers" for the Bravo, hehe.
  
 As far as my affinity for Schiit goes, that's mostly related to their DAC products. I personally feel they represent an excellent value and I appreciate their approach and use of US labor. I have a Gungnir in my home 2 channel listening rig and it is an absolute treat with just an optical connection. I'm on the waiting list for a Regen to try USB on it again next month. In standard form, optical is far and away better than my current USB implementation at home.
  
 So if I'm understanding correctly, I'll go with the Ember + 6SN7 adapter AND the 7193 adapter, plus two of any of these?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Ken%20Rad%202C22%207193%20Tube%20tested&_itemId=361127078782
  
 I have to admit I was expecting $50 or higher per tube so I'm relieved they aren't more expensive, assuming I'm looking at the right things. 
  
 Thanks for the help, I'm onboard the Ember train, just making sure I have everything down before ordering it


----------



## connieflyer

This is the adapter for the 7193's, we bought it from Ebay as Jeremy is not making these at this time. http://www.ebay.com/itm/191551519526?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT...
 If you do buy the Ember with the 6sn7 adapter, Jeremy may still have some Sylvania chrome tops left.  If he does it will save you more shopping and assure that you are getting a good tested tube.  I would start out with just the 6sn7 tube to start, if you really want to go FrankenEmber, you can easily do it later.  Lots of possible tubes to roll into the Ember, 9 pin or some not all 8 pin. This subject is pretty active on http://diyah.boards.net/  home to solderdude the co designer of the Ember line. Lots of knowledge with him and very helpful.  Will give advice on lots of things, not just what he designs and sells.


----------



## toddrhodes

Great advice, I will do as you suggest, go for the 6sn7 and ask about the Sylvania tubes you mentioned. I don't see anything with Sylvania and chrome in the description on the PDF on his site, but I'll send an email over and go that route. 
  
 So yea, Ember inbound


----------



## connieflyer

I bought one from him a couple of months ago, and so did a few other members that I know, he may not have enough stock to warrant putting them in his pdf.  Jeremy will help you get want you want and gives very good advice.  I just got the metal plates and larger knob from him last month, had the plex original plates, liked them but to me the metal looks much better.  Good luck with your purchase I am sure you will enjoy it.  Stop in at http://diyah.boards.net/ and see what is going on.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

Ok guy, in a few days, I may have the opportunity to buy a used Project Ember for 275 give or take, with a Tesla 12au7 and the original tube. Does that sound like a good deal. Probably a idiotic question because of course that's a good deal but I'm asking anyway...


----------



## Solrighal

ryhi-figuy said:


> Ok guy, in a few days, I may have the opportunity to buy a used Project Ember for 275 give or take, with a Tesla 12au7 and the original tube. Does that sound like a good deal. Probably a idiotic question because of course that's a good deal but I'm asking anyway...


 
  
 275 Dollars? I assume it has the supercharger & the adapter.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

Yes 





solrighal said:


> 275 Dollars? I assume it has the supercharger & the adapter.



Yes, $275 for the amp and two tubes. What is the supercharger and adapter you speak of?


----------



## Solrighal

ryhi-figuy said:


> Yes
> Yes, $275 for the amp and two tubes. What is the supercharger and adapter you speak of?


 
  
 The supercharger was an option that allowed the use of high-current tubes. I think it can be retro-fitted but don't quote me on that. It's now standard fitment on the recently released Project Ember MkII..
  
 The adapter allows the use of the huge 6SN7 family of valves. They're physically larger & have an octal (8) pin layout as opposed to the 9-pin of the standard Project Ember. The adapter is required for the MkII as well if you want to go down that route.
  
 The current Project Ember MkII is listed as $350 and the adapter a further $25 making $375 all-in. Can you afford another $100?


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

solrighal said:


> The supercharger was an option that allowed the use of high-current tubes. I think it can be retro-fitted but don't quote me on that. It's now standard fitment on the recently released Project Ember MkII..
> 
> The adapter allows the use of the huge 6SN7 family of valves. They're physically larger & have an octal (8) pin layout as opposed to the 9-pin of the standard Project Ember. The adapter is required for the MkII as well if you want to go down that route.
> 
> The current Project Ember MkII is listed as $350 and the adapter a further $25 making $375 all-in. Can you afford another $100?


 

 Well, I was really only considering the Ember because I found it for the same price as the Solstice, which i was planing on getting; and while I certainly can afford the $100 more, I just didn't really want to pay so much for an amp, since I also need a DAC among other things. It is about 1 year old (the used Ember). Do you think that its not a good idea to get one used, since its not the newer model?


----------



## Solrighal

It's still a great amp & if you're not likely to ever need the supercharger then it's not a bad buy.
  
 I personally would be forever thinking 'what if' though. Probably say more about me


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

solrighal said:


> It's still a great amp & if you're not likely to ever need the supercharger then it's not a bad buy.
> 
> I personally would be forever thinking 'what if' though. Probably say more about me


 
  It looks like you can buy the supercharger for $40 on their website, but it also looks like it isn't a stock option, but they add it for free when you buy a new one


----------



## ericr

If it has the supercharger (it was optional on the original Ember) it seems like a good deal to me. You would still have 4 years of warranty.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

Do you think you could "spot" the SC on it if I had a picture... if so, here's one:


----------



## Solrighal

It's a small board on the original Ember which sits just behind the valve. This one doesn't have it. Anyway, if it did I'm sure the seller would mention it.


----------



## ericr

As Zorrofox said, no SC on that one.  $35 to buy one you install (I can see there are 4 leads/posts soldered to the main board) or $40 including installation (but you pay to ship the amp both ways).


----------



## connieflyer

The Ember Supercharger module increases the tube heater current capacity from 500mA to well over 1A allowing many power hungry tubes to be used such as the 6n6p, 6n30p and more! Also tube warm up time is drastically decreased when using tubes requiring over 500mA!

 Supercharger module by itself is $39.99 + shipping. If you would like us to install the module, the price is $44.99 and you pay shipping both ways (will invoice for shipping after work is complete)

 If you are purchasing a new Ember amplifier or Horizon III amplifier, we will install the SC at no charge. Just select and add to cart the $39.99 option!

SUPERCHAGER OPTIONS


----------



## btrancho

connieflyer said:


> The Ember Supercharger module increases the tube heater current capacity from 500mA to well over 1A allowing many power hungry tubes to be used such as the 6n6p, 6n30p and more! Also tube warm up time is drastically decreased when using tubes requiring over 500mA!
> 
> 
> Supercharger module by itself is $39.99 + shipping. If you would like us to install the module, the price is $44.99 and you pay shipping both ways (will invoice for shipping after work is complete)
> ...



The Supercharger is only an add on with the older version I Ember. The new Mkii has the supercharger built-in. Adding the supercharger to the original version involves desoldering one part with four leads and soldering the four leads of the Supercharger in its place. If you have decent soldering skills it takes all of five minutes.


----------



## money4me247

lol... if you are never going to roll that type of tube... you don't need a supercharger. don't waste your money on something you don't need. hundreds of tubes you can roll without a supercharger and you can find just as much enjoyment. you can even not bother rolling tubes if you are too lazy hahah. stick with your budget & don't let random people convince you to buy something you won't use if it's out of your budget. the ember amp will still be the same great amplifier with or without a SC.
  
 just my opinion on this discussion


----------



## ericr

money4me247 said:


> lol... if you are never going to roll that type of tube... you don't need a supercharger. don't waste your money on something you don't need. hundreds of tubes you can roll without a supercharger and you can find just as much enjoyment. you can even not bother rolling tubes if you are too lazy hahah. stick with your budget & don't let random people convince you to buy something you won't use if it's out of your budget. the ember amp will still be the same great amplifier with or without a SC.
> 
> just my opinion on this discussion


 
  
 Good point, and I would agree with you 100% *if* Garage1217's list of compatible tubes showed which ones require the Supercharger and which are safe to use without it.  Without such a list the $35 (about 10%) was worth it to me as insurance that any tube listed would work.  No need to look up heater current on the internet.


----------



## toddrhodes

They also state the supercharger will heat up stock tubes more quickly as well so there is a benefit either way. Whether or not that's worth $40+ is up to the consumer. For me, personally, it's worth it (albeit included on the model I bought) in a "just in case" scenario. If I'm contemplating purchasing a different amp I might just be content to try a different/better tube.


----------



## Solrighal

money4me247 said:


> lol... if you are never going to roll that type of tube... you don't need a supercharger. don't waste your money on something you don't need. hundreds of tubes you can roll without a supercharger and you can find just as much enjoyment. you can even not bother rolling tubes if you are too lazy hahah. stick with your budget & *don't let random people convince you to buy something* you won't use if it's out of your budget. the ember amp will still be the same great amplifier with or without a SC.
> 
> just my opinion on this discussion


 
  
 That's a bit unfair don't you think? I mean, if you come on a forum & ask people if something worth the money you're inevitably going to hear the view from at least some that it's not. We're not exactly random either, since most of us here actually own the Ember & are in a position to speak from actual experience. I'm guessing that's why he came here in the first place.


----------



## money4me247

solrighal said:


> That's a bit unfair don't you think? I mean, if you come on a forum & ask people if something worth the money you're inevitably going to hear the view from at least some that it's not. We're not exactly random either, since most of us here actually own the Ember & are in a position to speak from actual experience. I'm guessing that's why he came here in the first place.


 
 mmm... it's just an alternative perspective. head-fiers almost always tell people to buy more stuff or upgrade gear further. a lot of times you don't actually need the upgrade. there is quite a lot of diminishing returns in this hobby. I'm sure that he can enjoy his music just as much on a used non-SC ember. spending more $$$ chasing upgrades isn't always what someone is looking for. especially if they have a limited budget.
  
 i think picking up an used ember without supercharger at a good discount price makes more sense for someone who has a limited budget & won't be spending a ton of money tube rolling. there are still a ton of tubes you can roll without a supercharger. you don't even need to tube roll to enjoy a tube amplifier, a lot of people just stay with the stock tubes.
  
 just my opinion. of course as always feel free to disagree.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

money4me247 said:


> mmm... it's just an alternative perspective. head-fiers almost always tell people to buy more stuff or upgrade gear further. a lot of times you don't actually need the upgrade. there is quite a lot of diminishing returns in this hobby. I'm sure that he can enjoy his music just as much on a used non-SC ember. spending more $$$ chasing upgrades isn't always what someone is looking for. especially if they have a limited budget.
> 
> i think picking up an used ember without supercharger at a good discount price makes more sense for someone who has a limited budget & won't be spending a ton of money tube rolling. there are still a ton of tubes you can roll without a supercharger. you don't even need to tube roll to enjoy a tube amplifier, a lot of people just stay with the stock tubes.
> 
> just my opinion. of course as always feel free to disagree.



Thank! I understand both sides/views to the supercharger. Personally, this is my first tube amp, and I won't likely roll too many tubes until I get more invested/make more money, and getting the Ember without the SC makes more sense to me he getting a new Solstice or spending another 100 on the new Ember. Once I get more invested with my audio gear, I may add one, but for now it seems like the used one is the way to go. Plus, I may get it for less than 275 if not too many people bid on it....


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

toddrhodes said:


> They also state the supercharger will heat up stock tubes more quickly as well so there is a benefit either way. Whether or not that's worth $40+ is up to the consumer. For me, personally, it's worth it (albeit included on the model I bought) in a "just in case" scenario. If I'm contemplating purchasing a different amp I might just be content to try a different/better tube.



I think it said that it would heat up tubes that are over a certain energy threshold faster


----------



## toddrhodes

ryhi-figuy said:


> I think it said that it would heat up tubes that are over a certain energy threshold faster


 
 Just checked again and you're right. Thanks for the correction


----------



## richard51

when i bought the Ember i try the standard family tube.....its ok.... but with the supercharger you will have access to the 6sn7 family tube  ( The _6SN7_ has a 6.3 V _600 mA_ heater/filament) and nobody had told here that this family sounded the same or less than the standard family.....For me there is no going back to standard tubes........ 
 Are the supercharger necessary for the Ember ? No but it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 make a big difference for me when i try ....its only my one cent impression .....
  
 By the way, i would hope in the past months an angel would have said to me "dont buy 200 hundred dollars of bugle boy ,amperex. standard tubes, buy only one or 2 6sn7 tubes with a super charger, it will be better a less cost"..... But there is no angel behind my ears at this time
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....


----------



## Solrighal

richard51 said:


> when i bought the Ember i try the standard family tube.....its ok.... but with the supercharger you will have access to the 6sn7 family tube  ( The _6SN7_ has a 6.3 V _600 mA_ heater/filament) and nobody had told here that this family sounded the same or less than the standard family.....For me there is no going back to standard tubes........
> Are the supercharger necessary for the Ember ? No but it
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 +1
  
 This is exactly how my experience has been. Gradually upgrading is pointless if you know you will upgrade eventually. Start from as high a level as you can afford and ultimately you save money.


----------



## richard51

And now a demon  on another forum revealed to me that the 7193 tubes exceeded the 6sn7 family sound with more refinement... i had bought a second adapter and 7193 tubes "hoping" that  this will be the last upgrade with the Marvellous Ember... Some other demon said now to me perhaps there will be other tentations in the desert of hifi, where each of us are in eternal containment  in his own paradise


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

solrighal said:


> +1
> 
> This is exactly how my experience has been. Gradually upgrading is pointless if you know you will upgrade eventually. Start from as high a level as you can afford and ultimately you save money.







richard51 said:


> And now a demon  on another forum revealed to me that the 7193 tubes exceeded the 6sn7 family sound with more refinement... i had bought a second adapter and 7193 tubes "hoping" that  this will be the last upgrade with the Marvellous Ember... Some other demon said now to me perhaps there will be other tentations in the desert of hifi, where each of us are in eternal containment  in his own paradise h34r:



I guess I'll see what I get the used Ember for...if I get it cheaper I may resell for higher and then get a new one. Also, what kind of sound differences would you say these other types of tube families have? And the Tesla tube I mentioned that he includes, is that any better than stock?


----------



## richard51

ryhi-figuy said:


> I guess I'll see what I get the used Ember for...if I get it cheaper I may resell for higher and then get a new one. Also, what kind of sound differences would you say these other types of tube families have? And the Tesla tube I mentioned that he includes, is that any better than stock?


 

 i am not good with the English language and the vocabulary of audiophily.... I ear any difference in my audio systems almost immediately but i cannot communicate to you the nuances and description ...all i can say is that with the stock family tube of the Ember without the 6sn7 adapter, i prefer the bugle boy 12au7....But like everybody that tried it the 6sn7 family push another limit because of better difference across the high mids and bass frequencies and three-d sounding... Remember that any improvement is very dependant on your choice dac, cable and all element of your chain... The Ember sound good with the basic tube .... But its better to know that  the Ember upgrade much with 6sn7 tubes... Other with better rhetorical talent than me  will describe that , i am sure...


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

richard51 said:


> i am not good with the English language and the vocabulary of audiophily.... I ear any difference in my audio systems almost immediately but i cannot communicate to you the nuances and description ...all i can say is that with the stock family tube of the Ember without the 6sn7 adapter, i prefer the bugle boy 12au7....But like everybody that tried it the 6sn7 family push another limit because of better difference across the high mids and bass frequencies and three-d sounding... Remember that any improvement is very dependant on your choice dac, cable and all element of your chain... The Ember sound good with the basic tube .... But its better to know that  the Ember upgrade much with 6sn7 tubes... Other with better rhetorical talent than me  will describe that , i am sure...



Actually, on the topic of the quality of DACs, would the Schiit Modi Uber be a good DAC choice for this amp, or would it end up being a bottleneck?


----------



## richard51

ryhi-figuy said:


> Actually, on the topic of the quality of DACs, would the Schiit Modi Uber be a good DAC choice for this amp, or would it end up being a bottleneck?


 

 i dont have experience with the modi dac..... when i was almost decided to buy the Modi i discovered review of the bushmaster mkII ... For the price a purchase i dont regret a bit...The Modi is certainly good ....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  the bushmaster is slightly more expensive though....


----------



## dpump

The Schiit Modi 2 Uber is a fantastic DAC. I have one on my Ember. I also have a Musical Fidelity V90-DAC running off the same Oppo 983H being used as a transport for the Ember and a Solstice. The Musical Fidelity is also a great DAC. I don't hear any difference between the two DACs as far as detail. The Musical Fidelity may be very slightly brighter than the Schiit or you could say the Schiit is a little smoother. The Modi 2 Uber is $150 and the V90-DAC is $300, so you can see what a great value the Modi 2 Uber is.
  
 Since Schiit has released the Yggy DAC, there is speculation that the Bifrost and Mjolnir DACs will be updated fairly soon, so the Modi 2 Uber is a great place to start. It will have a good resale value if you update later and definitely isn't a bottleneck with the Ember, IMHO.


----------



## money4me247

solrighal said:


> +1 This is exactly how my experience has been. Gradually upgrading is pointless if you know you will upgrade eventually. Start from as high a level as you can afford and ultimately you save money.


 
 I actually agree with this mentality from my personal experience too, but I think that it is more true when you are buying full price MSRP. if you can get a deal price and then add the upgrade piece later, you actually would save money that way as well.
  
 also, @RyHi-FiGuy, just a friendly heads-up. if you would like to sell gear for profit, stick to e-bay or other selling websites. The F/S forums on head-fi are strictly non-profit (as in you cannot sell for higher than you purchased for). cheers!


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

money4me247 said:


> I actually agree with this mentality from my personal experience too, but I think that it is more true when you are buying full price MSRP. if you can get a deal price and then add the upgrade piece later, you actually would save money that way as well.
> 
> also, @RyHi-FiGuy
> , just a friendly heads-up. if you would like to sell gear for profit, stick to e-bay or other selling websites. The F/S forums on head-fi are strictly non-profit (as in you cannot sell for higher than you purchased for). cheers!



Haha yeah that's what I was planing on. I have a little eBay store that I sell lots of stuff on to buy more expensive stuff... Basically the only reason I have money


----------



## toddrhodes

Jeremy got back to me today, amazing service to be following up with emails on a Sunday, IMO. I do the same for work but don't expect that whatsoever. Anyway, unfortunately he doesn't have any more Sylvania chrome tops. Any other info on that particular tube to see if they exist anywhere else? He recommended some others and I'll follow-up with him tomorrow as I'm pretty tube-stupid at this point. I've wanted to do tubes in my home 2ch system and will eventually, but after the headphone upgrades are done.
  
 I've heard the same about Gungnir and Bifrost getting trickle-down tech from Yggy, can't wait! I'll be first in line to upgrade my Gungnir for sure.
  
 I think there are two schools of thought to upgrading methodically, or starting off at a high level. Depends on if you prefer the journey, or just want to listen to high quality music and not fuss with tweaking. Neither is wrong, just different strokes.


----------



## Solrighal

I enjoyed the journey but the ticket was damned expensive. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I wouldn't worry about not getting a Chrome Dome right away as the differences are all relatively subtle to be honest. I have one but it's bettered by a General Electric 6SN7GT VT-231 I have in almost every way. The differences aren't huge though, at least not in the valves I've bought thus far.
  
 As far as DAC's are concerned I've only heard what I have now, an ODAC. I was concerned that considering it's low price I might be missing out but most of the advice I got as to upgrading was going to mean shelling out a lot of money for what are comparatively small gains. So until I win the lottery I'm content to stick where I am for a bit. I really can't fault the sound I'm hearing right now.


----------



## DavidA

When I got my Ember I was just starting out and didn't know about the supercharger or 6SN7 tubes and nobody was really talking about them.  The few times the 6SN7 tube was mentioned I didn't really know what the difference was from the 12XXX series.  After finding out that the Ember will also be able to use 6922/6DJ8/6N23P I tried some of my better Lyr2 tubes like Telefunken CCa, Siemens Lorenz, Amperex BB, Reflectors and a few other highly regarded tubes and found that the 12XXX series actually sound better so I'm left to ponder the question if the 6SN7 will be much of an improvement, guess the only way to find out is to get the adapter but before I do I might sell my current Ember and just get a Mk2 for the advantage of the more powerful heater.


----------



## Amish

Or just send yours in and have Jeremy install it for you.


----------



## DavidA

amish said:


> Or just send yours in and have Jeremy install it for you.


 
 The shipping cost from Hawaii both ways is too much plus I can do the install anyway, built my crack w/ speedball and have repaired computer motherboards.


----------



## connieflyer

I have an version one also, and had the supercharger installed, and if you have experience building the crack you would have no trouble putting the SC on yourself.  I don't see anything on the newer version that would be worth the investment to spend on the new one.  The warranty on your original should be good for several more years, I ordered the metal plates and a larger knob for mine and am happy with them.  Gives the amp a new look and I like the way it looks.  With the 6sn7 adapter it opens up new vistas of tube rolling, not to mention stacking another adapter on it and using the 7193 triodes.  With the 7193's it just "seems" to be a little more open. RIchard51 I hope I am not the "demon" you were referring too!  LOL!  I know what you mean, I was perfectly happy with the Ken Rad 6sn7 vt231 tube, until JGlatz came up with the Franken Ember!  Liked what he had to say about it, so tried it and have ordered back up 7193's for it!  You talk about a "demon" it is all his fault!  But seriously it is nice to have an amp that is so versatile  and can be configured so many ways, they should be pushing that idea alot more, although if they do more "demons" will find more ways for me to spend money I don't have.


----------



## DavidA

Built a BH Crack so installing the supercharger is not a problem.  Another reason I was wondering about the 6SN7 series tubes is that I haven't heard it used with the BH Crack since you could use the adapter from the Ember, might have to change some of the heater circuits but shouldn't be that hard.


----------



## connieflyer

That might be an interesting project. Let us know if you try it and how it goes.


----------



## btrancho

davida said:


> Built a BH Crack so installing the supercharger is not a problem.  Another reason I was wondering about the 6SN7 series tubes is that I haven't heard it used with the BH Crack since you could use the adapter from the Ember, might have to change some of the heater circuits but shouldn't be that hard.


 

 You don't need to change anything on the Crack to use the 6SN7.  Just use the same adapter as the Ember.  I run my Crack (with Speedball) with a 6SN7 all the time now.


----------



## DavidA

btrancho said:


> You don't need to change anything on the Crack to use the 6SN7.  Just use the same adapter as the Ember.  I run my Crack (with Speedball) with a 6SN7 all the time now.


 
 Thanks for the info, good to know that its a plug and play thing.  Does it need the speedball installed?  Mine is not currently installed, really like the sound without it.
  
 What about the sound with the 6SN7 series, big upgrade?


----------



## btrancho

davida said:


> Thanks for the info, good to know that its a plug and play thing.  Does it need the speedball installed?  Mine is not currently installed, really like the sound without it.
> 
> What about the sound with the 6SN7 series, big upgrade?


 
 I think that the Speedball upgrade does more to improve the Crack than most any change of tubes.  I hear more resolution, clarity, and detail, without becoming at all sibilant.
  
 You don't need the Speedball to run the 6SN7.
  
 I perceive most tubes as changing the sound in a relatively moderate way, unless, of course, you have a crappy tube to begin with.  For me, the 6SN7 gives a bit more authority across the board to my HD600s.  I was previously running a NOS Mullard CV4003 which is a bit more relaxed.  The other day I rolled in a new issue Gold Lion 12AU7 and was pleasantly surprised at how good it sounded, but the Sylvania VT-231 (6SN7 variant) went back in after I was done.


----------



## DavidA

btrancho said:


> I think that the Speedball upgrade does more to improve the Crack than most any change of tubes.  I hear more resolution, clarity, and detail, without becoming at all sibilant.
> 
> You don't need the Speedball to run the 6SN7.
> 
> I perceive most tubes as changing the sound in a relatively moderate way, unless, of course, you have a crappy tube to begin with.  For me, the 6SN7 gives a bit more authority across the board to my HD600s.  I was previously running a NOS Mullard CV4003 which is a bit more relaxed.  The other day I rolled in a new issue Gold Lion 12AU7 and was pleasantly surprised at how good it sounded, but the Sylvania VT-231 (6SN7 variant) went back in after I was done.


 
 Had the speedball installed but it had some noise issues with some tubes, also it sounded better without the speedball to me.  Currently using a TS-5998 and 12AX7 Telefunken.
 With the Ember using a reissue Mullard or Electro Harmonix most of the time, these new tubes give the best dynamics IMO.  Will roll a NOS Telefunken once in a while since its smoother for some headphones.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

So I just got the Ember I talked about for $200. I call that a good deal...


----------



## Solrighal

ryhi-figuy said:


> So I just got the Ember I talked about for $200. I call that a good deal...




So do I. How do you like it?


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

solrighal said:


> So do I. How do you like it?



Well I just won the bid so I'll see when it gets to me...also I'm waiting for my K7XX's to ship out, but it may be the 29th till that happens


----------



## Solrighal

Ah right. Good luck.


----------



## bbball

connieflyer said:


> Well I have to admit when I found out about the metal plates, I was not impressed either.  But after seeing some on different Embers, I decided to order them.  Very glad I did, they lookreally great with this amp. I have made a few alterations and give credit to a member on DIY Audio Heaven  http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember.  JGlatz the member I am speaking of, just after buying a very expensive Ken Rad 6SN7 VT 213 black top, and I was so glad I did,  love the sound.  Then this member, JGlatz brings out his version, he called it FrankenEmber, love at first site, it uses the 7193 tubes, single triodes.  Like it?


 
  
  
  
 Hey *connieflyer, I just ordered project Ember this morning and also ordered this 7193 kit from ebay. Can't wait to hear them!*


----------



## iancraig10

Aha .... You've been on DIYAH. I'm Rabbit on there!!


----------



## bbball

Ah Hi!! Nice to meet you !


----------



## DavidA

ryhi-figuy said:


> Well I just won the bid so I'll see when it gets to me...also I'm waiting for my K7XX's to ship out, but it may be the 29th till that happens


 
 I have my K7XX paired with the Ember and its a great match.  I have the output R on the middle setting, keeps the bass nice and tight while the highs have just the right sparkle that I like.


----------



## Solrighal

iancraig10 said:


> Aha .... You've been on DIYAH. I'm Rabbit on there!!


 
  
 And I'm not.


bbball said:


> Ah Hi!! Nice to meet you !


 
  
 I'm Sol.


----------



## bbball

Yeah! I know your avatar! lol


----------



## bbball

davida said:


> I have my K7XX paired with the Ember and its a great match.  I have the output R on the middle setting, keeps the bass nice and tight while the highs have just the right sparkle that I like.


 
 Thanks for sharing. I am still waiting for my K7xx to arrive.


----------



## Solrighal

Although I much prefer the sonic signature of my HD 650's over everything else I've heard I'd have to say that it was my Q701's that benefited most when I upgraded to the Ember from my O2. It really was a night & day improvement. It still didn't get rid of the 2k spike of course. If it did I'd still own them.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

Mhhmmmmmm. The sound of this amp even makes my m50's sound beautiful. Listening to Mumford and sons brings tears to my eyes with these....


----------



## richard51

ryhi-figuy said:


> Mhhmmmmmm. The sound of this amp even makes my m50's sound beautiful. Listening to Mumford and sons brings tears to my eyes with these....


 

 I am in my heart with you for the ember


----------



## jaxz

I'm loving my Ember MKII with RCA 6SN7GTB tube. I want to upgrade from ODAC to a better more resolving DAC. Any recommendations are welcomed.


----------



## DavidA

jaxz said:


> I'm loving my Ember MKII with RCA 6SN7GTB tube. I want to upgrade from ODAC to a better more resolving DAC. Any recommendations are welcomed.


 

 Teac UD-301 or Bifrost for the Under $500 choice, just my 2 cents


----------



## richard51

jaxz said:


> I'm loving my Ember MKII with RCA 6SN7GTB tube. I want to upgrade from ODAC to a better more resolving DAC. Any recommendations are welcomed.


 

 read about caiman mkII of stanley beresford.... quality /price ratio... i had his other dac and this is a very good one....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and also the emotiva stealth dc1 dac...very good reviews about it


----------



## DecentLevi

@jaxz, other DACs to check out under $300-ish are Gustard X12, Geek Out v2, and Music Streamer HD. For $750 go with the Gungnir and for $2,300 go for the top with Yggdrasil 'Yggy'. 
  
The main DAC thread is an excellent place to get started in your quest. It can become a bit time consuming there but at least post the question there for other great suggestions too.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

So, new questions my friends...

Ok, so I am a bit worried about my audio system, as it is running directly from my PC to my amp via a 1/8 jack to RCA. For listening on my m50's, it sounds beautiful; however, I am worried that when I start listening to the k7xx's that it won't be so good. I don't want to bottleneck my sound, so do you guys think idyl be a problem? Or do you think it will be fine? I am planing on buying a Schiit Modi, however I find it hard to invest in one of it won't help the audio too much...also I'm worried if I start buying to much audio stuff I won't be able to stop...so I'm trying to practice self control.
Either way, I'd love to hear your opinions! Thanks guys!


----------



## Solrighal

What sound-card is in the PC?


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

solrighal said:


> What sound-card is in the PC?



I'm not sure the exact name of the sound card, but it is the one on the Asus Maximus Hero VI, which is advertised to have a 'better' sound card


----------



## money4me247

ryhi-figuy said:


> I'm not sure the exact name of the sound card, but it is the one on the Asus Maximus Hero VI, which is advertised to have a 'better' sound card




i may be wrong, but i think thats the motherboard, not a sound card.

ur sound card should be fine regardless though if you have a dedicated one with an amplifier. headphones are much more important. I personally wldnt worry too much abt soundcard vs dac/amp unless you are experiencing hissing or noise or distortion.

if ur soundcard doesnt have an onboard amp, u can consider an budget amp fpr the k7xx


----------



## Solrighal

He's got a Project Ember already mate. 

I'm assuming this is a Windows machine? If so you can go into Device Properties & find out what the sound-card is. I'm on Mac & so I'm not able to direct you to exactly where the info is but it's there somewhere. 

I'd still recommend a stand-alone DAC when you can afford one as you definitely the gear now to make the most of it. Something like an ODAC or Schiit Modi is relatively affordable. YMMV.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

money4me247 said:


> i may be wrong, but i think thats the motherboard, not a sound card.
> 
> ur sound card should be fine regardless though if you have a dedicated one with an amplifier. headphones are much more important. I personally wldnt worry too much abt soundcard vs dac/amp unless you are experiencing hissing or noise or distortion.
> 
> if ur soundcard doesnt have an onboard amp, u can consider an budget amp fpr the k7xx



Not to be rude, but I don't think you really read through the previous posts before this. I already have an amp, and I am wondering if the onboard sound card of my Asus Hero VI is good enough not to bottleneck my rig


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

solrighal said:


> He's got a Project Ember already mate.
> 
> I'm assuming this is a Windows machine? If so you can go into Device Properties & find out what the sound-card is. I'm on Mac & so I'm not able to direct you to exactly where the info is but it's there somewhere.
> 
> I'd still recommend a stand-alone DAC when you can afford one as you definitely the gear now to make the most of it. Something like an ODAC or Schiit Modi is relatively affordable. YMMV.


 
 ROG SupremeFX 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC
 Thats the soundcard that my motherboard has, but that doesn't really say much. Either way, which DAC would you recommend between the Modi and the ODAC?


----------



## DecentLevi

So if you're comparing the ODAC and Modi, looks like you're in the $150-ish price range. I would recommend going about $200 for the Beresford Caiman MKII. The ODAC is ancient and has the lowest review from Purrin on the thread listed below. I have owned the Modi for about a year and honestly it made only a marginal improvement on my laptop's output, yet was worse compared to my creative soundcard. If you're buying the Modi 1, it NEEDS the Wyrd USB signal enhancer for an additional $100 to make it sound up to par; otherwise you don't need that if you're getting the newest Modi 2.
  
 The ROG Supreme FX is a codec (software) for the soundcard-section on your motherboard so it seems to not be a dedicated soundcard at all. Maybe you should consider investing around $300 on a medium-good DAC instead of around $150 on a bottom of the line one, to negate the need to upgrade again anytime soon.
  


> Other DACs to check out under $300-ish are Gustard X12, Geek Out v2, and Music Streamer HD. For $750 go with the Gungnir.
> The main DAC thread is an excellent place to get started in your quest. It can become a bit time consuming there but at least post the question there for other great suggestions too.


 
  
 PS- you can read a lot about all of these by searching on Head-Fi


----------



## DavidA

ryhi-figuy said:


> ROG SupremeFX 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC
> Thats the soundcard that my motherboard has, but that doesn't really say much. Either way, which DAC would you recommend between the Modi and the ODAC?


 
 The built-in sound card should be good for a while.  I wouldn't bother with a DAC until you need more than one connection: like USB from computer, coax/optical from DVD/Blueray.
  
 I don't like using USB connection to DAC, to much problems with drivers, optical is easiest, coax second, just my 2 cents.


----------



## DecentLevi

@RyHi-FiGuy, I hope my message above didn't sound too frank but I'm just trying to point you in the right direction with my real-world experience. But anyway please take our word for it - a decent DAC will do wonders to improve on the overall sound quality compared to a computer's headphone output, especially if you've got a good amp and set of 'cans like yours.
  
 Coax / optical may be able to provide a more clean transport, but DACs with those implementations can be quite pricier. The USB signal enhancers like Wyrd and Gustard U12 on the other hand really do phenomenally with a USB connection to the DAC.


----------



## Solrighal

I would just get to know the sound you have right now. Christmas isn't far away & by then you'll have gained a deeper understanding of the attributes of your system. If you still think you want/need better then look at stand-alone DAC's.
  
 The ODAC is a perfectly good budget solution. Is it the best? No, it's not. But it's less than £100, doesn't need a power supply and (at least on my Mac) dead silent. The Schiit Modi 2 Uber is also supposed to be good for just a little bit more money. Also maybe look at the Cambridge Audio Dacmagic 100. That can be had for some hefty discounts. It's most likely where my money's going when I scrape it together. For a bit more money there's the Schiit Bifrost which also gets good reviews. As do Beresford DAC's. My only problem with Beresford is that you're also paying for an integral amp which seems kinda pointless for me as I'm very happy with my PEII. YMMV.


----------



## DavidA

@RyHi-FiGuy, The audio chipset on your motherboard is a Realtek ALC-889 which is really good.  See this article from Toms Hardware on DACs: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733.html.  
  
 I've tried some blind testing with my system which has a ALC-889 chipset, a add in Xonar DG sound card, and with my stand alone  Bifrost and UD-301 and found that it was very difficult to tell the difference between them so decided that DACs don't give me the best bang for the buck, headphones are the biggest influence in the sound with amps second and DACs third.
  
 The Ember has a larger effect on the sound than any of my DACs from my experiences.
  
 Another thing you may want to try to see if you motherboard sound is holding you back is to connect a Fiio DAP or even your phone and connect to your Ember and see if you notice a difference.
  
 Anyway, this is just my experiences, YMMV and everyone has their own experiences that they draw on, the only thing that matters is what sounds good to you.


----------



## connieflyer

Following up on DavidA's link check the last page of the review,
  Although we don't typically review audio gear, we believe that we have a few advantages over some hi-fi reviewers. First, we have no financial interest in the products we review. Second, we're PC enthusiasts, not self-proclaimed audiophiles. Consequently, we're not afraid to talk about our strengths and weaknesses. In the audio field, an inability to hear differences among devices spanning a large range of price points is self-defeating. But here, we can comfortably suggest that those products might simply perform similarly.
 One thing we _know _we're good at is designing objective tests, learning from them, and drawing fact-basing conclusions based on the analysis. The integrity of our methodologies is everything, and we can't help but believe that approach is rare in audio equipment testing. We hope our readers will find our experience in testing valuable.
 Of course, we also have to acknowledge our own shortcomings and the limits of these tests; neither is perfect. We are audio amateurs, not audio professionals. However, we've tried to create the best possible tests, documenting each and every step along the way so that others can conduct their own experiment and form their own opinion. If you see a way to improve upon our process, we welcome this and look forward to seeing your results, too.
*If some of the conclusions we drew sounded implausible, don't worry; they did to us as well.*
Try A Few Things For Yourself Although there is no quick and easy way to replicate the tests in this article at home on your own, here are a few tests we hope you'll have fun with. They should be far more enlightening than our technical explanations of some of the concepts we discussed.
 You probably can tell the difference in 1 dB volume levels, but can you reliably tell the difference in 0.5 dB volume levels?
 Can you hear all the way up to 22 kHz? What about at or below 20 Hz?
 You can probably hear an absolute 54 dB of dynamic range in your environment, but can you reliably hear 78 dB? For reference 16-bit audio has roughly 96 dB of dynamic range. Twenty-four-bit manages a theoretical 144 dB, although it's almost impossible to achieve more than 120-130 using real-world ADCs. Eight-bit audio has a dynamic range of "only" 48 dB; can you reliably tell the difference between 8-bit and 16-bit audio?
_Play all of these tests at maximum digital volume. Just be aware that they're not designed to be scientific, but rather to give you some perspective. Try them out for yourself and feel free to post your results in the comments section below!_
A $2 Codec Sounds (to us) like a $2000 Device 
 Benchmark Media DAC2 HGCJDSLabs O2+ODACAsus Xonar Essence STXRealtek ALC889Price~$2000~$290 (including AC adapter)$190~$2 (OEM in volume)Pros-Great sound quality
 -Outstanding build quality
 -Only device to support 88.2/176.4/DSD64 in practice
 -Dual headphone out
 -Greatest number of analog/digital I/O and features (remote control, LCD display)
 -Free 30-day trial-Great sound quality
 -Open-source design that can be self-assembled at lower price point
 -High-quality volume control
 -Semi-portable-Great sound quality
 -Does not take up desk space
 -Has both RCA and 1/4" TRS output
 -Has ADC stage-Great sound quality
 -Outstanding value
 -Does not take up desk space
 -Supports eight-channel audio
 -Doesn't require PCIe or USB connectivityCons-Very expensive
 -You pay for features; sound quality is matched at lower price points
 -Adds desk clutter-No RCA output
 -No TRS 1/4" jack
 -Power transformer not included
 -Adds desk clutter-RCA and 1/4" TRS output cannot be concurrently active; switch is software-only
 -Requires free PCIe slot
 -No external volume control
 -Essentially no portability-Not as linear or hi-fi as the other devices (-1.4 dB  @ 100 Hz)
 -No TRS 1/4" jack
 -Fixed gain setting
 -No external volume control
 -Essentially no portabilityApplicationExtreme PC-driven DAC / headphone amplifier and natural interconnect point with any high-end hi-fi systemDedicated DAC and headphone amplifier with a convenient volume control and option for limited portabilityBudget hi-fi solution that allows switching between 2(.1) stereo speakers and high-end headphones"Near-Fi" solution that fits almost all major use cases and dominates from a value perspective
 I sank $2000 of my own money into the DAC2 HGC last December, so I subjectively _wanted it_ to sound better than everything else. Tests have shown that it doesn't. I was surprised, but, having been personally involved in the evaluation and believing in the integrity of what we set up, I rationally accept the findings.
 Of course, we're ready for the audiophile community to rise up in arms about the statement you'll read next, but it's true that neither an intermediate enthusiast nor a serious one with ~$70,000 in gear at home were able to reliably tell apart any of the four devices once we properly set up a blind test with accurate volume-matching. We actually enjoyed them all as great audio experiences.
*Using world-class headphones, a $2 Realtek integrated audio codec could not be reliably distinguished from the $2000 Benchmark DAC2 HGC in a four-device round-up. Again, all four devices sounded great. *The same might not apply to full-sized speakers; we can't say, since we didn't test them. But as far as some of the best headphones in the world go, we stand by these test results.
 While calibration does show that Realtek's ALC889 is less linear, and thus less hi-fi than the other devices we're looking at, the 1.4 dB difference at 100 Hz apparently isn't enough to reliably differentiate the experience it delivers from others in real-world scenarios. Isn't 1.4 dB a pretty big difference? In a "pure tone", it would be quite noticeable. That's less the case when you're listening to regular music though, especially if the more sensitive 1 to 4 kHz tones are more accurately matched.
But $2 Buys A Smaller Subset of Features If we halted our exploration at perceived audio quality, we'd only be telling half of the story. There's just so much more to a DAC/amplifier.
 Neither the Realtek codec nor Asus' Xonar provide volume control, aside from what you get in Windows. Realtek does support DSD, but without an ASIO driver, we couldn't get it working in foobar2000. Neither lower-end solution can drive headphones and speakers concurrently, let alone automatically mute speakers when headphones are connected. They don't support amplifying an external source, either. Not surprisingly, they're strictly tied to a single device with no real portability. Realtek does facilitate eight-channel output, and the integrated codec and discrete sound card help prevent clutter on your desk.
 The DAC2 and O2, being USB-based audio devices, can be plugged into and rapidly switched between any USB source. Want to connect your laptop to your audio system rather than your desktop? That's easy. The O2 has a very high-quality analog volume control, which provided the finest calibration in our round-up. The DAC2 has a motorized volume control with remote control. Want to listen to your headphones in bed and adjust the volume without getting up? Only the DAC2 can do that.
 Ultimately, music is about entertainment and personal enjoyment. Hi-fi is meaningful insofar as it heightens the experience of music; it is not necessarily helpful beyond that. Some audiophiles even prefer the low-fi distortion that tube amplifiers introduce. The DAC2, O2+DAC, Xonar Essence STX, and ALC889 are all outstanding solutions. Each delivers a beautiful experience that you'd certainly enjoy. They're similar when it comes to sound quality. Where they differ is mainly in their feature sets and price points.
Value Considerations I think that money spent on quality recordings, whether they're digital recordings, CDs, DVDs, or SACDs, is the money best-spent. They'll simply never become obsolete.
 From there, speakers and headphones are the most important components in your sound system. Headphones generally give you better bang for your buck and are usually more convenient. Obviously, though, they can't replicate the experience of full-range speakers. You feel bass from a subwoofer in ways a headphone can't match. Also, listening to high-end speakers well-separated provides a more immersive experience.
 If headphones are the way you go, then our tests show that quality integrated audio codecs are sufficient for driving some of the best in the world. You simply have to live with the fact that a motherboard with built-in audio is going to give you fewer features. That's the point where you have to decide what you're willing to pay for.
  
 - See more at: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html#sthash.AlO4KDVn.dpuf
  
 Try out the various tests available on the hotlinks above and see what your hearing is really like.  Very interesting article.


----------



## richard51

i appreciate your dedication... very good analysis and experiment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But when i bought the aune t 1 dac i sense immediately a difference with my soundcard....when i bought the hifimediy asynch dac it was better immediately to my ears than the aune t1 for the He 400 .... when i bought the bushmaster dac the improvement was audible in speakers and headphone (the sound was less thin for example)  Why i had these hallucinations and only me? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i will not return back to my realtek....


----------



## DavidA

richard51 said:


> i appreciate your dedication... very good analysis and experiment
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'd look at it as money well spent in your case since you noticed the improvement in the sound.


----------



## richard51

davida said:


> I'd look at it as money well spent in your case since you noticed the improvement in the sound.


 

 thanks for my crying wallet


----------



## DavidA

richard51 said:


> thanks for my crying wallet


 

 At least your wallet is crying, mine is on life support


----------



## Solrighal

richard51 said:


> thanks for my crying wallet


 
  
 Consider yourself damned lucky you can still hear your wallet. Mine's upped & left the building months ago


----------



## richard51

oups! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




i think i had said a word to(o)  much.....


----------



## Solrighal

richard51 said:


> oups!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 More like a letter to*o* little 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 See what I did there?


----------



## money4me247

ryhi-figuy said:


> Not to be rude, but I don't think you really read through the previous posts before this. I already have an amp, and I am wondering if the onboard sound card of my Asus Hero VI is good enough not to bottleneck my rig


 
 you are right that I don't remember your previous posts here. my answer is still the same though. your onboard sound card is most likely sufficient. you can possibly eek out a bit more sonic return, but you will need to look into much higher end type dacs than the ones you mentioned or a dac with a relatively more drastic difference in coloration/presentation to appreciate it. basically, I don't think you have to worry too much about your sound card being a bottleneck. Usually, the amplifier is the 'bottleneck' for headphone performance.
  
 no worries, no offense taken. just trying to be helpful  cheers
  
 edit: also note that from my own personal testing of dacs, I've found that price does not correlate with whether things sound better. a lot of dac swaps I've done do not really cause any drastic alteration in sound or may sound different (but hard to say which presentation was clearly 'better')


----------



## Solrighal

Someone mentioned Madonna earlier.
  
 Listening to _Nothing Really Matters_ from _Ray of Light_ and switching between my Sylvania 6SN7GTA & my GE 6SN7GT VT-231 the difference is immediately obvious. The bass-line is a lot easier to follow on the VT-231. Bigger, punchier & less bloated.
  
 That's all.


----------



## Demo3

Hay guys...
 I listened to my first Project Ember at the Colorado meet this past weekend and was blown away by it's sound (not surprised, I have been researching).  I see that most use a computer > dac > amp > headphone setup.   On the other hand I am completely mobile and right now rip my files at home and place them on my FiiO X5 run it through a Rx Mk3-B+ amp and then to my HD650s... and listen at work. 
 The Rx Mk3-B+ has plenty of power to drive the HD650 using the high gain setting but does not have the sound of the Ember. 
 I am not to much of a noob and I know that I do not need a dac for this setup knowing that I will use the line out to the amp but I need a few opinions if the X5 built in dac will play well with the Ember.


----------



## DecentLevi

connieflyer said:


> Following up on DavidA's link check the last page of the review,
> Although we don't typically review audio gear, we believe that we have a few advantages over some hi-fi reviewers. First, we have no financial interest in the products we review. Second, we're PC enthusiasts, not self-proclaimed audiophiles...


 
 Connie are you quoting somebody else's narrative, or are you speaking directly to us? Because I don't think it's safe to say that the members of an audiophile forum are PC enthusiasts rather than audiophiles. Also, the use of PCs in the audio chain is the trend not the rule, because there are still many 'traditional' head-fi'ers on these forums that still use an analogue or non-PC setup such as vinyl, receivers, tube amps, standalone CD/SACD players, etc., who which don't seem to be PC enthusiasts at all. I for one, am a self proclaimed audiophile (as well as a naturist, audio engineer, sound design artist, electronic music artist and world traveler). Who's to say that I myself can't decide what I want to be? I go by the philosophy that life is what you make it / you can be anything or do anything that you set your mind to.


----------



## money4me247

I think connieflyer brings up a good point though. some audiophiles are not tech-savy or computer enthusiasts.

the benefit of a standalone dac over a dac in a sound card is that an external dac is more isolated from electrical inference from the PC. Many modern sound card designs address this with a separate pcb for cards.

so realistically if you arent hearing issues with your current sound card, the sonic upgrade may not be as large.

onboard sound cards can trump certain external dacs performance & its hard to guage which one will be superior without listening to both side-by-side.

really if you can grab an external dac at a reasonable cost from somewhere with a great refund policy, it might be worth exploring, but differences will not be as large as people here can sometimes make it seem


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## connieflyer

If you would have taken the time to read DavidA's link even you would understand what was being talked about.  You are jumping to conclusions.  It is not stating anything about whether it is better or worse to a "tradional"audiophile, to use a pc, congratulations on you many forays into sound and all the other wonderful things you do in life your quote " I for one, am a self proclaimed audiophile (as well as a naturist, audio engineer, sound design artist, electronic music artist and world traveler)."  You really get a little tired of people espouse opinions with reading the articles they are criticing . You just have your self a wonderful life now.


----------



## daerron

It is kind of like asking someone who is not a guitarist to pick you a good guitar. Unless you are familiar with what constitutes a good guitar over another you wouldn't really be able to offer a good suggestion, all guitars are going to sound the same to that person. It takes a couple of years of familiarity with the instrument to figure out what constitutes a good guitar over another and half of the time it invokes unquantifiable things that cannot be objectively measured. Measurements tell half of the story, but they are not everything.
  
 Thanks for all the interesting opinions and discussions on the Ember. I'm seriously thinking of buying an Ember and getting the 6SN7 adapter and playing around with a couple of those, it's an interesting valve I've read a lot about, but haven't tried yet. On the Sunrise 2 I always felt the 12V valves sounded superior to me compared to the 6V ones. I'm still a little bit concerned about interference, I experienced a lot of that on the Sunrise 2 and was wondering whether the metal top chassis helps somewhat in that regard?


----------



## bbball

demo3 said:


> Hay guys...
> I listened to my first Project Ember at the Colorado meet this past weekend and was blown away by it's sound (not surprised, I have been researching).  I see that most use a computer > dac > amp > headphone setup.   On the other hand I am completely mobile and right now rip my files at home and place them on my FiiO X5 run it through a Rx Mk3-B+ amp and then to my HD650s... and listen at work.
> The Rx Mk3-B+ has plenty of power to drive the HD650 using the high gain setting but does not have the sound of the Ember.
> I am not to much of a noob and I know that I do not need a dac for this setup knowing that I will use the line out to the amp but I need a few opinions if the X5 built in dac will play well with the Ember.


 
  
  
 I own X5 and just got Ember last weekend and I love Ember so much. I think X5 as a DAC is super good already, at least it is good enough for your Ember. I also own the NAD D1050, which is somewhat better than X5 in clarity and detail side. They both have very energetic sound but X5 is slightly rough compared to the D1050. But anyway, if you don't compare, then X5 is good enough though. I use Denon D2000 and Shure SE846. For myself, the Ember gives a huge improvement to my D2000 compared to the FiiO E12 and my very old portable dac/amp iBasso D10. But for SE846, there is almost no differences between different amp. I am still waiting for my K7XX, may do more compare after it arrives.


----------



## bbball

richard51 said:


> read about caiman mkII of stanley beresford.... quality /price ratio... i had his other dac and this is a very good one....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I have the NAD D1050 and it matchs your budget. To me, it is super good..........From the Datasheet, the THD is as low as 0.0006, which I believe is the best in this price range. Not mention to say it won awards from the WhatHiFi.


----------



## richard51

bbball said:


> I have the NAD D1050 and it is match your budget. To me, it is super good..........From the Datasheet, the THD is as low as 0.0006, which I believe is the best in this price range. Not mention to say it won awards from the WhatHiFi.


 

 this is certainly a good dac.. i read about it ... congratulations!


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## bbball

richard51 said:


> this is certainly a good dac.. i read about it ... congratulations!


 
  
  
 LOL, and believe me, it is a heavenly good match to the project Ember........


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## richard51

bbball said:


> LOL, and believe me, it is a heavenly good match to the project Ember........


 

 i trust your impression.....youre lucky


----------



## Demo3

bbball said:


> I own X5 and just got Ember last weekend and I love Ember so much. I think X5 as a DAC is super good already, at least it is good enough for your Ember. I also own the NAD D1050, which is somewhat better than X5 in clarity and detail side. They both have very energetic sound but X5 is slightly rough compared to the D1050. But anyway, if you don't compare, then X5 is good enough though. I use Denon D2000 and Shure SE846. For myself, the Ember gives a huge improvement to my D2000 compared to the FiiO E12 and my very old portable dac/amp iBasso D10. But for SE846, there is almost no differences between different amp. I am still waiting for my K7XX, may do more compare after it arrives.


 

 Thanks bbball... I will be ordering mine shortly.


----------



## Amish

Best 6SN7 yet. This is without a doubt my fav tube atm.
  
1946 Sylvania/RCA 6SN7GT tube - Black Plates, Copper Grids, [o] Getter


----------



## ericr

RCA or Sylvania?


----------



## Amish

ericr said:


> RCA or Sylvania?


 
 It is a RCA branded Sylvania made tube.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

Just got my 7XX's!! It sounds great with the amp...like holy crap does it sound superb. Thanks to everyone for recommending this amp and thanks for all the help you all have given!
  
 Also, I've got a 12au7 Tesla valve and a 12ax7 JJ valve (the stock one). Is the stock one worth keeping? Also I'm planing on buying the supercharger since I got the amp for just 200, since I want to try out some of the crazy valves, so maybe you guys can recommend some? And until my birthday which comes up in a few months I'm going to stick with my PC's onboard dac.


----------



## Amish

I'm no fan of JJ tubes myself but I hear that they do have some good ones. I love the 12ax7 tubes. Not a fan of the 12au7 though. I've had a few of those and though they sound fine I just prefer the 12at and 12ax and 12bh.
  
 I'd say the JJ is worth keeping though as a back up or to remind yourself how much better your other tubes are from time to time.
  
 Enjoy your new amp dude. It's a great one.


----------



## Solrighal

I received a JJ ECC82 (same thing?) with my Ember & it was OK but I'd already bought a couple of 6SN7's before the Ember & adapter arrived. It took all of one song with the Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome to consign my JJ to the role @Amish states above. I'll keep it as a back-up but I hope to never have to use it in anger.
  
 The JJ does sound energetic. I'll give you that, but to me it sounds like it's trying too hard. Perhaps that would be good for certain genres but not for my tastes.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi everyone, while I know the Ember's already been reviewed I'm putting in *my two cents* (or more but who's counting) *on the Ember 2.0:*
 
*Unboxing*, it was packaged very well - enough so that the tube was just fine, which I surprisingly saw was in the unit during transit. Looks very clear & pretty in real life compared to any photos.
 
*Initial impressions*: Using the stock-tube, I was already impressed with the sound. It was set to medium gain and for some reason I got the impression that the beat of the song I was listening to was somewhat disjointed from the rest of the song. Everything seemed colored perhaps just a smidget too much, with a very subtle distortion. Still however even with the stock tube, it sounded better than my previous amp setup, which was the Capella amp with a Magni 1 as a pre-amp into it via 3.5mm to RCA cable - and I really (thought) I loved that setup too, so that's saying a lot about the Ember; better detail retrieval and soundstage perhaps.
 
Next I went ahead and popped in the Sylvania 6SN7 tube that I ordered separately (6SN7GTB Sylv. yellow print, silver top tube) with the 6SN7 adapter which I also ordered from Jeremy. And this is when the magic started - literally something changed within me and it really made my day! Playing a song that I've used to compare other hi-fi setups at a headphone meet, I instantly began to think this sounds on par with the best sound I've ever heard, and then, WOW, it really hit me: I had one of those rare moments where time sort of stops - I'm transported into some netherworld existence and all my hair stands up with goosebumps all over my body and I can only speak jibberish. Now of course I'm not saying this is the world's best tube or anything, but this was my personal reaction. To put it into more technical terms, everything was more vivid and lifelike with more detail retrieval all across the spectrum. A piece of a recording that previously game me the impression it was mastered badly on previous amps, all of a sudden sounds cohesive and pleasing. I'm not quite sure if the soundstage seems bigger than the stock tube, but I can only seem to describe this tube with Ember 2.0 as refined and vivid! Wowza. Oh and big thanks to those who had recommended this tube. I owe you one sometime.
 
Now onto *more tweaking*: (The headphone I used mostly throughout this several hour test was the HD 650.)

Gain settings (output resistance): two jumpers, one on each side towards the front for each L / R channel, which can be pulled out while the music is playing and put into place for low, med. or high gain settings. I found the low gain on all cans to be somewhat thin and not as refined overall, and the high gain to be perhaps a bit overdone on the dynamics and/or bass; but yes, like others have said, medium is usually the way to go! This setting gives good PRAT (pace, rhythm & timing), dynamics/punch and detail.
Input attenuation: these are the jumpers towards the back right which have two settings, one for each L / R channel and are set to W/AM (with module) or WO/AM (without module). Upon A/B'ing these 2 settings twice, the only difference I noticed was that the volume was maybe around twice as much on the 'without' setting and rotating the volume knob makes more sound. So I preferred its' default setting.
Capacitor bypass jumpers. *(AWESOME ALERT!!!)* These are the two jumpers spaced about 2" apart, in front of the tube; one for each L / R channel. Wrongly assuming 'more is better', I reluctantly switched the settings (from the stock "TC" to "BP-C" on both sides) expecting nothing. Initially I didn't know what changed, but a few seconds later I started noticing more... umm... more of everything! Those little crackly nuances 'plankton', instrument separation was improved moreso! I then A/B'd this to with the capacitors,  only to realize, that (IMO anyway), without a doubt I can hear more detail and refinement without the capacitors! Furthermore I compared with the capacitors on and with the Magni 1 daisy-chained via headphone-out to the Ember (which I previously though was the winner), but realised the caps-bypassed option on with the Ember connected directly gave better clarity / rhythm. It also seems the rhythm is slower with the caps. Not to say things sounded faster without, but moreso 'right'.
  
I also compared the way the Ember 2 performs on two closed 'cans (caps still bypassed), the Beyer. DT 150 and SoundMagic HP 100, and although this finally 'woke up' the DT 150, I was more impressed overall with the performance of the HP 100; this being a low-impendance 'can somehow sounded more refined with the Ember's hi-gain setting: vivid, fluidic textures, strikingly clear micro-details and deep sub bass. A finding of myself and others though on these two cans BTW is that they seem more suited for vocal / rock / classical than electronic music. HD 650 really synergises amazingly with the Ember 2.
 
Anyway this amp is good enough to make me wanna sell the last 2 amps I've purchased, and, already having two sets of 7193 tubes and an adapter on the way, I'm wondering if I should be 'afraid' of how good the Ember will sound with them.


----------



## richard51

yes you should be afraid....


----------



## connieflyer

levi your review while a little simplistic ( incorrect terminology) is conflicting,  you say"  but realised the caps-bypassed option on with the Ember connected directly gave better clarity / rhythm. It also seems the rhythm is slower with the caps. Not to say things sounded faster without, but moreso 'right'."  which is it, you say rhythm is slower with the caps on then say it is not faster without the caps..........


----------



## jaxz

davida said:


> Teac UD-301 or Bifrost for the Under $500 choice, just my 2 cents


 
  
  


richard51 said:


> read about caiman mkII of stanley beresford.... quality /price ratio... i had his other dac and this is a very good one....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you both. I will check those DACs.
  
 Another thing is when i connect the FiiO X5 or X3ii via line out as standalone player, i get a scratchy volpot. I've been told that maybe the FiiO players have a little DC...whatever that is....
  
 When i connect both players via line out as a USB DAC the noisy volpot is gone. Weird...


----------



## Amish

I've been telling people for a long time now that the Ember hits way above it's price point. It truly is an outstanding amp.


----------



## Solrighal

amish said:


> I've been telling people for a long time now that the Ember hits way above it's price point. It truly is an outstanding amp.




+1


----------



## DavidA

@DecentLevi, great review
 You have the terminology of gain and resistance mixed


----------



## DecentLevi

In my testing of the 3 different jumper settings, the only one that seemed to yield a similar result to when adjusting the gain settings on previous amps, happened to be the jumpers on both sides towards the front of the Ember. It seemed that only those two in the front seemed to change the dynamics / sound characteristics, etc. It seemed strange to me that these are labeled output resistance, when to me it seems like the effect of a gain stage. So are you saying the one in the back is the true gain setting? 
  
 Yes I realised when writing that it seemed a bit conflicting, but what I meant to say was that in my test, the rhythm seemed slightly slower with the capacitors, and without, while it didn't seem faster than it's supposed to be, it sounded slightly faster than with - probably an effect of faster attack/release etc.
  
 Also if you want to help me with a question about a tube, please click here to see it on the other thread.


----------



## Solrighal

I gave you a breakdown of the different options available here.. 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/530_10#post_11732878

You should read it.


----------



## Solrighal

@DecentLevi
  
 Just in case you haven't got it already the manual is available here..
  
http://www.garage1217.com/MANUALS/EMBER%20MANUALS/EMBER%20II%20MANUAL%204-4-15.pdf


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> In my testing of the 3 different jumper settings, the only one that seemed to yield a similar result to when adjusting the gain settings on previous amps, happened to be the jumpers on both sides towards the front of the Ember. It seemed that only those two in the front seemed to change the dynamics / sound characteristics, etc. It seemed strange to me that these are labeled output resistance, when to me it seems like the effect of a gain stage. So are you saying the one in the back is the true gain setting?
> 
> Yes I realised when writing that it seemed a bit conflicting, but what I meant to say was that in my test, the rhythm seemed slightly slower with the capacitors, and without, while it didn't seem faster than it's supposed to be, it sounded slightly faster than with - probably an effect of faster attack/release etc.
> 
> Also if you want to help me with a question about a tube, please click here to see it on the other thread.


 
 I see where it can seem like the output resistance is miss labeled but think of it like this, if you have 3 different headphones of similar efficiency but different impedance,  say 32, 300, and 600 ohms and you drive them of the same amp, the highest impedance one will sound the softest while the lowest will sound the loudest.


----------



## vaibhavp

Can anyone confirm if ember 2 will work well with easy to drive dynamic cans like akg k550 or any other with 32 ohm imp. I want to know if i will get enough play with volpot before it gets too loud

Also is there noticeable hiss with them?

Thanks.


----------



## Amish

The Ember works very well with my Grado 325 cans which are 32 ohms. No hiss.


----------



## vaibhavp

amish said:


> The Ember works very well with my Grado 325 cans which are 32 ohms. No hiss.




Great. Thanks for quick reply.


----------



## DecentLevi

I have found that for some strange reason, it seems all of my low impedance headphones (32-50 ohm) sound better with the high gain setting on Ember (more refined in the treble/bass presentation) so you may wanna give that a whirl with your Grados (eerie I'm talking about a dead man with his photo on HF right next to these words).
  
 Also some small updates to my review on the previous page:
  
 I have found that the dual 7193 tubes give a much better sound the 6SN7 tubes, from the ones I've tried so far at least. (you can read about that on the Ember Tube Rolling thread). Also I'm leaning towards using the capacitors (not bypassed) since it often sounds overly analytical otherwise. cheers


----------



## Tunkejazz

I was set between the Polaris and the Asgard 2. Reading through the Polaris thread has made me realize that I am now set to decide between Ember and Polaris (thanks Amish!).

I live in Europe, and ordering stuff from the US is...taxed. If I were to order the Ember, I would like to get also 3-4 tubes in the same delivery to minimize mail/customs overhead. I would like to have something with good bass impact and sub-bass presence, with sweet top end + 3 other good tubes that give me a good flavour of the different sound signatures that this amp can deliver. Perhaps one of them should be also somwhat more neutral?

What are those alternatives?


----------



## vaibhavp

decentlevi said:


> I have found that for some strange reason, it seems all of my low impedance headphones (32-50 ohm) sound better with the high gain setting on Ember (more refined in the treble/bass presentation) so you may wanna give that a whirl with your Grados (eerie I'm talking about a dead man with his photo on HF right next to these words).
> 
> Also some small updates to my review on the previous page:
> 
> I have found that the dual 7193 tubes give a much better sound the 6SN7 tubes, from the ones I've tried so far at least. (you can read about that on the Ember Tube Rolling thread). Also I'm leaning towards using the capacitors (not bypassed) since it often sounds overly analytical otherwise. cheers




By high gain you mean no attenuation? From what i gather, without attenuation means purer signal path. With attenuation means more components in path like resistors to reduce input signal level. This i believe are different than high lo gain. 

Can someone more knowledgable please explain?


----------



## iancraig10

decentlevi said:


> I have found that for some strange reason, it seems all of my low impedance headphones (32-50 ohm) sound better with the high gain setting on Ember (more refined in the treble/bass presentation) so you may wanna give that a whirl with your Grados (eerie I'm talking about a dead man with his photo on HF right next to these words).
> 
> Also some small updates to my review on the previous page:
> 
> I have found that the dual 7193 tubes give a much better sound the 6SN7 tubes, from the ones I've tried so far at least. (you can read about that on the Ember Tube Rolling thread). Also I'm leaning towards using the capacitors (not bypassed) since it often sounds overly analytical otherwise. cheers




I find the same myself. I guess that low impedance headphones are more demanding with regards to current and so to get really good peaks, having a little more throttle available does help? Just guessing here. I find the same with the Senn hd650. It seems to sing better at high power.

There are all kinds of things that make small differences to sound that seem to have quite an impact overall. I've also found that the Grado headphones seem to sound fuller with high output impedance. If you take the 1/8th rule that is bandied about, this shouldn't be, since 32 ohm headphones from 120 ohms output impedance is technically (according to current thinking) wrong. However, my ears hear an improvement!


----------



## vaibhavp

I asked Jeremy which was better: ember or solistice, he simply said both are chameleon amps. 

Anyone here who has heard both, can confirm if ember is an upgrade over solstice. I dont need extra power of ember and if solstice is as good as ember for easy to drive load, i will choose that. I am mainly looking for more detail.

Thanks.


----------



## Solrighal

vaibhavp said:


> By high gain you mean no attenuation? From what i gather, without attenuation means purer signal path. With attenuation means more components in path like resistors to reduce input signal level. This i believe are different than high lo gain.
> 
> Can someone more knowledgable please explain?


 
  
 This is a very good point & something I hadn't considered before. Kudos!


iancraig10 said:


> I find the same myself. I guess that low impedance headphones are more demanding with regards to current and so to get really good peaks, having a little more throttle available does help? Just guessing here. I find the same with the Senn hd650. It seems to sing better at high power.
> 
> There are all kinds of things that make small differences to sound that seem to have quite an impact overall. I've also found that the Grado headphones seem to sound fuller with high output impedance. If you take the 1/8th rule that is bandied about, this shouldn't be, since 32 ohm headphones from 120 ohms output impedance is technically (according to current thinking) wrong. However, my ears hear an improvement!


 
  
 Yup, high (or straight) gain here too. I'm only using the HD 650 & I thought this was counter-intuitive but @vaibhavp's post above presents a reasonable justification for it to my mind.


vaibhavp said:


> I asked Jeremy which was better: ember or solistice, he simply said both are chameleon amps.
> 
> Anyone here who has heard both, can confirm if ember is an upgrade over solstice. I dont need extra power of ember and if solstice is as good as ember for easy to drive load, i will choose that. I am mainly looking for more detail.
> 
> Thanks.


 
  
 I haven't heard the Solstice but from all I've read the biggest factor is going to be the valve used, particularly if you don't need the extra power. Wait for someone more knowledgeable to comment before pulling the trigger though. I'm no expert.


----------



## DavidA

vaibhavp said:


> Can anyone confirm if ember 2 will work well with easy to drive dynamic cans like akg k550 or any other with 32 ohm imp. I want to know if i will get enough play with volpot before it gets too loud
> 
> Also is there noticeable hiss with them?
> 
> Thanks.


 

 you shouldn't have a problem, I've used my Vmoda XS and K553 which are efficient along with planars like HE-560, LCD-2f and even high impedance headphones like HD-650 and HD-800 without any problems.


----------



## Amish

vaibhavp said:


> I asked Jeremy which was better: ember or solistice, he simply said both are chameleon amps.
> 
> Anyone here who has heard both, can confirm if ember is an upgrade over solstice. I dont need extra power of ember and if solstice is as good as ember for easy to drive load, i will choose that. I am mainly looking for more detail.
> 
> Thanks.


 
 What you need to consider when looking at both of those amps is the difference in power. The Ember can push 2.4 watts while the solstice puts out just over 1 watt. (depends on which setting you have selected on the amps)


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm no expert on the Solstice either, but from my limited understanding it seems that the Solstice is the older, weaker outdated version with fewer 'tweaking' options to customize the sound and that you will be happier in the long run investing the the Ember 2 instead. But I'm think you may have possibly gotten the Solstice confused with the Polaris? The Polaris is a solid state amp with purportedly similar similar sound-signature to the Ember, with clean / detailed sound signature but without tube capability so you're basically stuck with only one sound from that amp (of course that can still be customized with EQ'ing and swapping headphones.) Jeremy is very helpful and can explain more (links to contact him are on the Garage 1217 site).
  
 In regards to wanting a variety of tubes 'valves' with the Ember to save on import fees to Europe, I would say don't worry about doing it this way. You see, from various posts like on the Project Ember Tube Rolling thread, and from my own first-hand testing, many of us have concluded that the best sound from the Ember comes from the bigger tubes: using either one 6SN7 tube with a 6SN7 adapter, or dual 7193 tubes using a 6SN7 adapter and a 7193 adapter together. Jeremy sells the 6SN7 adapter but not the 7193 adapter or either of these two tube types at present. So for me, I bought the 6SN7 adapter from him, then the other adapter and other tubes from three other sellers. If you're in Europe there are a lot of tubes sold there so you don't need to pay for import fees.
  
  


vaibhavp said:


> By high gain you mean no attenuation? From what i gather, without attenuation means purer signal path. With attenuation means more components in path like resistors to reduce input signal level. This i believe are different than high lo gain.
> 
> Can someone more knowledgable please explain?


 
 As far as I understand, high gain means _less _attenuation / more power going into your 'cans (which on Ember is called output resistance jumpers), which can influence many aspects of the sound like dynamics/impact, bass & treble response; not necessarily a cleaner sound but a different one, of which settings yield variable results from headphone to headphone. What I was talking about in regards to clarity was not using the capacitor bypass option. This is a totally separate function than the gain stage; two dip switches on the circuit board in front of the tube which can be set to TC (using capacitors), or BP-C (bypass capacitors). After I started using the more refined and detailed sounding larger tubes, I had realized I prefer the TC mode because otherwise it would sound _too _clear without the capacitors.


----------



## Solrighal

You might want to look here..
  
http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_005.htm
  
 The Solstice is actually the newest design if you discount the recent MkII Ember, which is not a new design sound-wise although it is operationally. The Solstice has a unique feature.
  
 The Ember has three sets of jumpers that can affect the sound. The gain jumpers are to the right rear of the unit and are positioned vertically & front to rear. The output resistance jumpers are on either side of the amp, aligned horizontally and again, front to rear. The input capacitors can be bypassed with two vertical jumpers orientated left-right directly in front of the tube.
  
 High gain might be useful for say, Sennheiser's HD 650 which is a 300 Ohm model, and above. Low is all you need for anything below 300 Ohm. Low gain with the HD 650 allows greater range on the volume pot before you go deaf, all else being equal. Still, try both. You never really know what you'll prefer. If it sounds good to you it is good.
  
 Output resistance is entirely different. On some - not all - headphones the actual character of the sound changes. Using the same HD 650's you might find that a low output impedance setting (0.1 Ohm) increases attack & transient response, a bit brighter in general too. Whereas moving to the high setting (120 Ohm) warms up the bass a bit & provides a somewhat smoother, denser sound. The middle setting is the middle setting. There seems - from my understanding - to be a sort of mechanical optimum output resistance for any given load and the 300 Ohm impedance of the Senn's seems to suggest the lower (0.1 Ohm) setting be ideal. This is entirely for your ears to decide. I've tried it every which way with all sorts of music and I can pick & choose benefits of any combination of settings.
  
 Bypassing the input capacitors can add just a touch more clarity to the sound.
  
 Of course, it's a valve (tube) amplifier & the sound can be further tuned by swapping (rolling) tubes. Tubes in general tend to sound on the warm side of neutral, whereas solid-state designs tend to err towards coldness. That's a sweeping generalisation but I think you'll get my drift.
  
 Within that range you'll find some tubes that are bright & edgy. Some that are dark & moody. Smoky. These tubes tend to be my favourites (thus far).
  
 YMMV


----------



## Asr

The Solstice isn't an old amp, it was released earlier this year (around January, IIRC), before version 2 of the Ember (which was in the spring). The Polaris came out last summer, and the version 1 Ember was released before that. The "old" amps in Garage1217's line-up are the Horizon and Sunrise.
  


vaibhavp said:


> Anyone here who has heard both, can confirm if ember is an upgrade over solstice. I dont need extra power of ember and if solstice is as good as ember for easy to drive load, i will choose that. I am mainly looking for more detail.
> 
> Thanks.


 
  
 I have both the Ember v2 and Solstice in-house at the moment, and even I can't say if the Ember 2 is an upgrade over the Solstice due to not having any tube duplicates to run the amps simultaneously with the same type of tube. I did try rolling one tube between the amps, a 6H6N, to see if there was a difference between them, but I didn't really detect anything significant on the first attempt (I haven't made any further attempts yet). If there is a sonic difference inherent to the amps, irrespective of a tube, I'd have to do extended rolling to even begin to hear it, but that'd be a very unreliable method to compare the amps, so I'm unlikely to bother....
  
 One thing is for certain though: the amount of perceived detail will be influenced way more by the tube you choose, instead of which amp you choose, and the Ember v2 has much more versatility in that aspect since it supports a much wider array of tubes. Not that the Solstice's tube support is anything to scoff at though.
  
 Btw, I'm currently going through a 6H6N, 6GU7, and 6DJ8 on both the Ember v2 and Solstice for reviews of both amps (an updated review, in the case of the Ember). Plus a 6SN7 for just the Ember, which has had some very interesting results....


----------



## vaibhavp

Thanks for replies guys.

I really dont need power of ember as my hardest to drive can is sennheiser hd700 which can be driven by a even a phone. 

I also dont need pre amp output. So if they both dont have much difference in sound i will choose solstice and save 100$ and invest in tubes and dac instead.

It seems asr has made a case in favour of solstice?

Thanks.


----------



## dpump

The Solstice actually is the more versatile than the Ember when it comes to tube rolling. The Solstice will support all the tubes the Ember will, plus the Solstice will support both the 6SN7 and the 12SN7 using the Solstice 6SN7 adaptor. The Solstice does not have  preamp output or the ability to bypass the output caps like the Ember. If you don't need preamp out, go with the Solstice and save some money.


----------



## vaibhavp

dpump said:


> The Solstice actually is the more versatile than the Ember when it comes to tube rolling. The Solstice will support all the tubes the Ember will, plus the Solstice will support both the 6SN7 and the 12SN7 using the Solstice 6SN7 adaptor. The Solstice does not have  preamp output or the ability to bypass the output caps like the Ember. If you don't need preamp out, go with the Solstice and save some money.




Ok, thanks.

I am new to this tube rolling business and would be happy if i could roll just one type say 12au7. 

Having these many options is frankly a little overwhelming.


----------



## richard51

dpump said:


> The Solstice actually is the more versatile than the Ember when it comes to tube rolling. The Solstice will support all the tubes the Ember will, plus the Solstice will support both the 6SN7 and the 12SN7 using the Solstice 6SN7 adaptor. The Solstice does not have  preamp output or the ability to bypass the output caps like the Ember. If you don't need preamp out, go with the Solstice and save some money.


 

 yes but if you added powered speakers  someday in the future or a stax basic system like me.......the pre out of the Ember is so extraordinary with 7193 tubes that i listen mostly on my stax and speakers...... My hifiman he 400 doesnt compete now  with my stax and powered speakers with the Ember  pre out....Witout it directly from the stax amp i had preference for the hifiman he 400....Hence this pre out function is very important for me , perhaps for you in the future, its possible to tweak with tube ss amp with that and all is WOW... Ember is a treasure....think to your future move before choosing....


----------



## connieflyer

I have to agree with Richard51 on this. I started using the preouts after trying the 6sn7 tube family.  I have it running through and Emotiva XDR 2 dac, Harman-Kardan AVR 510 into Electro-Voice Sentry V speakers and I can tell you it is very worthwhile having the preouts, especially since the added cost is so slight. Using the 7193's has made a big difference in my enjoyment of this system.  You may not see the need for the increase versatility now, as you would be happy just rolling one type of tube, but in the future you may want that increased versatility  and not have, and have to upgrade again.


----------



## richard51

remember that the flagship of Garage 1217 is the Ember not the Solstice.....


----------



## vaibhavp

richard51 said:


> yes but if you added powered speakers  someday in the future or a stax basic system like me.......the pre out of the Ember is so extraordinary with 7193 tubes that i listen mostly on my stax and speakers...... My hifiman he 400 doesnt compete now  with my stax and powered speakers with the Ember  pre out....Witout it directly from the stax amp i had preference for the hifiman he 400....Hence this pre out function is very important for me , perhaps for you in the future, its possible to tweak with tube ss amp with that and all is WOW... Ember is a treasure....think to your future move before choosing....







connieflyer said:


> I have to agree with Richard51 on this. I started using the preouts after trying the 6sn7 tube family.  I have it running through and Emotiva XDR 2 dac, Harman-Kardan AVR 510 into Electro-Voice Sentry V speakers and I can tell you it is very worthwhile having the preouts, especially since the added cost is so slight. Using the 7193's has made a big difference in my enjoyment of this system.  You may not see the need for the increase versatility now, as you would be happy just rolling one type of tube, but in the future you may want that increased versatility  and not have, and have to upgrade again.




Hmm. If it were a tube buffer instead of preamp, it would've been a no brainer. I plan to keep using hps and in that case imo a buffer is great option to add tube flavour. Pre amp adds an unnecessary volume pot in chain which degrades sound quality quiet a bit.

Anyways ember seems will be worse for my wallet in long run. I still have some time to decide. Will see.


----------



## vaibhavp

richard51 said:


> remember that the flagship of Garage 1217 is the Ember not the Solstice.....




Yup thats why i was set on it before asr 's comment.


----------



## richard51

asr comment are correct....but the pre amp function is very IMPORTANT.... if you planned to live years with your amp....


----------



## vaibhavp

richard51 said:


> asr comment are correct....but the pre amp function is very IMPORTANT.... if you planned to live years with your amp....:wink_face:




Hahaha. I expect to get fired long before that and loose my interest in worldly desires.


----------



## Solrighal

I also use the pre-amp out from my Ember to my Marantz PM6004. I wouldn't even consider buying a headphone amp that _didn't_ have pre-outs.


----------



## money4me247

just curious, does the ember have a switch to toggle between preamp and headphone out functions or does it mute the preamps when headphones are plugged in? thanks


----------



## daerron

money4me247 said:


> just curious, does the ember have a switch to toggle between preamp and headphone out functions or does it mute the preamps when headphones are plugged in? thanks


 
  
 Afaik, the Ember v2 now mutes the preamp output when the headphones are plugged in. The first version was like my Sunrise 2 and didn't mute the headphone output. Personally I prefer having a toggle switch as I usually leave my headphones plugged in.
  
 Agree with the comments on the handiness of the preamp outputs. They are really useful when using speakers, I loved using the Sunrise 2 as a preamp even on my speaker system.


----------



## Solrighal

Yeah, @daerron is right. My Ember MkII mutes the pre-out when I connect my headphones. Essential.


----------



## Amish

I too use the Ember's preout to my Pioneer SA-8100 amp via it's pre-poweramp input (which bypasses the pioneer's features and passes the ember's sound straight through to my speakers) which are the Hsu Research HB-1 mkII.
  
 let me say that it sounds amazing this way. Even better than all of my headphones. Nothing but brilliant. Then again that is to be expected of anything Dr. Hsu creates.
  
  
  
 On another note I just last night for the first time used my Sennheiser HD 580 headphones with the Ember. WoW...very nice. Not as nice as my LCD2 but really really good. Loads of clarity! Love it.


----------



## DavidA

Also use the pre-out, RCA to KEF-cube -> SAE-X10 amp -> KEF 103.3 Reference speakers, really great sound.


----------



## Amish

So with all that...buy the Ember. At the least you have more options down the road with it. pre-out seems popular.
  
 And you can buy the 6sn7 adapter for the Ember anyways which is something like $24.


----------



## bbball

connieflyer said:


> I have to agree with Richard51 on this. I started using the preouts after trying the 6sn7 tube family.  I have it running through and Emotiva XDR 2 dac, Harman-Kardan AVR 510 into Electro-Voice Sentry V speakers and I can tell you it is very worthwhile having the preouts, especially since the added cost is so slight. Using the 7193's has made a big difference in my enjoyment of this system.  You may not see the need for the increase versatility now, as you would be happy just rolling one type of tube, but in the future you may want that increased versatility  and not have, and have to upgrade again.


 
  
  
 Hey connie, is that means when you connect your ember as a preamplifier, you need to bypass the preamp part on your Harman-Kardan receiver and just use your receiver as power amp?


----------



## bbball

solrighal said:


> I also use the pre-amp out from my Ember to my Marantz PM6004. I wouldn't even consider buying a headphone amp that _didn't_ have pre-outs.


 
  
  
 Hi Solrighal, so how do you usually do when you want your integrated amp to work as power amp only? Is there a bypass clip on PM6004?


----------



## Solrighal

Nope. I use the Ember as a straight line-in. Double-amping. Who cares? It sounds superb!


----------



## Amish

Yeah you can just plug it into any AUX in on your receiver. You are not double amping though. Just passing the signal out to the receiver and the receiver then takes that signal and then amps it out to your speakers.
  
  
 If your receiver has a pre-amp input you can go that way too.


----------



## Amish

I just tested this as I have not done so before but as others have said; while my headphones are plugged into the Ember, no sound is sent to my amp and speakers. As soon as I pull out my headphone jack....lovely sound flows from my HB-1's.


----------



## Solrighal

It _is_ double-amping. The Ember volume control works, as does the control on my Marantz.


----------



## vaibhavp

Ember sure has a big following. 

I will buy solstice and post impressions here in case anyone interested.


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

So, does anyone know how you can buy the larger volume knob for the Ember, I REALLY want it, looks cool. I am ordering the SC with (hopefully if they are in stock) the Sylvania Chrome top and the 6SN7 adapter. I also want to put a knob into that order


----------



## Tunkejazz

Just pulled the trigger. My Ember will soon be on the way  

Just hopping to not get rapp...I mean ripped by customs fees/taxes!


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

Ok, so Jeremy doesn't have any more of the Sylvania..any other 6SN7 tubes that are comparable that he might have in stock? Or a good place to find the Sylvania maybe?

EDIT:
Is this the Sylvania Chrome top you speak of? If so, is that price reasonable....?


----------



## Tunkejazz

Nope he did not have in stock any longer. I took another one that he recommended but still...legend is legend


----------



## MattTCG

Just wanted to chime in and say that I've had this amp a couple of weeks and find it fantastic. I'm pairing with the hd650 and Ether and the Ember is exceptionally good with both hp's. My only small quibble is that I'd like a physical switch for the gain. Other than that, it's just a wonderfully musically amp.


----------



## btrancho

ryhi-figuy said:


> So, does anyone know how you can buy the larger volume knob for the Ember, I REALLY want it, looks cool. I am ordering the SC with (hopefully if they are in stock) the Sylvania Chrome top and the 6SN7 adapter. I also want to put a knob into that order


 

 Here you go:
  
 http://www.satopartsusa.com/prod_detail/default.cfm?sku=P2K4M5&title=K-52-KE-1%20Metal%20Knob


----------



## MattTCG

btrancho said:


> Here you go:
> 
> http://www.satopartsusa.com/prod_detail/default.cfm?sku=P2K4M5&title=K-52-KE-1%20Metal%20Knob


 
 That's a great volume knob. Allows for much better control.


----------



## richard51

matttcg said:


> That's a great volume knob. Allows for much better control.


 

 how do you install it ?


----------



## MattTCG

Just use a small hex/allen wrench to loose the set screw (counter-clockwise to loosen). Then use the opposite to tighten the set screw on the new knob.


----------



## richard51

matttcg said:


> Just use a small hex/allen wrench to loose the set screw (counter-clockwise to loosen). Then use the opposite to tighten the set screw on the new knob.


 

 thank you very much MatTCG... i will buy one when i had money this is beautiful......The Ember merit one


----------



## MattTCG

That knob is well worth the money. Looks great as well and matches the color scheme of the Ember perfectly IMO.


----------



## melkenshawn

matttcg said:


> That knob is well worth the money. Looks great as well and matches the color scheme of the Ember perfectly IMO.


 
 Any reason why you're selling it though?


----------



## MattTCG

melkenshawn said:


> Any reason why you're selling it though?


 there is a few features of the v2 that appeal to me. Already ordered a new one


----------



## melkenshawn

matttcg said:


> there is a few features of the v2 that appeal to me. Already ordered a new one


 
 Oh i see. Good luck selling your ember!


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

Any thoughts on this Sylvania tube on eBay, anyone? Good buy or nah?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-6SN7-GTB-Sylvania-Angle-Plate-Chrome-Top-Highfidelity-Graded-Pair-/301685151803?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item463dd6183b#viTabs_0


----------



## DecentLevi

@RyHi-FiGuy The price looks good but I'm pretty sure those are the same tube as I had recently gotten; of which, unfortunately came at the bottom of my list amongst twelve 6SN7 tubes. Check out my impressions of these tubes here. My 3 favorite 6SN7 tubes I've tried by far are the 
Sylvania 6SN7 GTA (phenomenal clarity, timbre, energy), 
Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7 WGT (same as last but slightly less bass), and 
Raytheon 6SN7 GT Black Plate (same as last but possibly a bit lower THD).


----------



## RyHi-FiGuy

decentlevi said:


> @RyHi-FiGuy The price looks good but I'm pretty sure those are the same tube as I had recently gotten; of which, unfortunately came at the bottom of my list amongst twelve 6SN7 tubes. Check out my impressions of these tubes here. My 3 favorite 6SN7 tubes I've tried by far are the
> Sylvania 6SN7 GTA (phenomenal clarity, timbre, energy),
> Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7 WGT (same as last but slightly less bass), and
> Raytheon 6SN7 GT Black Plate (same as last but possibly a bit lower THD).


 

 Thanks! Could you refer me to a place to purchase the GTA Sylvania?


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> @RyHi-FiGuy The price looks good but I'm pretty sure those are the same tube as I had recently gotten; of which, unfortunately came at the bottom of my list amongst twelve 6SN7 tubes. Check out my impressions of these tubes here. My 3 favorite 6SN7 tubes I've tried by far are the
> Sylvania 6SN7 GTA (phenomenal clarity, timbre, energy),
> Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7 WGT (same as last but slightly less bass), and
> Raytheon 6SN7 GT Black Plate (same as last but possibly a bit lower THD).


 

 can you give your impression about your 6sn7 tubes versus the 7193.... ? thanks Decentlevi


----------



## Skyfall

Geez, I thought I'm done buying a hybrid amp as I'm very happy with G3 made by Indeed Hifilab. It sounds Amazing with LCD and sennheiser phones. 

Now I'm curious to see if Ember will be an improvement over G3. Does anyone know? Thanks


----------



## richard51

i am very interested in the comparison because of the price diffeerence.. and this amp can drive 7193 tubes with a double adapter i guess.... it has a pream/out....but you cannot tweak gain and resistance for any headphones ...i wait for the comparisom.... its like an Ember for the poorer...


----------



## MattTCG

I'm wondering how the hd800 pairs with the Project Ember. Thoughts?


----------



## richard51

matttcg said:


> I'm wondering how the hd800 pairs with the Project Ember. Thoughts?


 

 very inte
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




resting question ....


----------



## Solrighal

matttcg said:


> I'm wondering how the hd800 pairs with the Project Ember. Thoughts?


 
  
  


richard51 said:


> very inte
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm hoping the answer is "Very well indeed!". The Ember certainly has the power, at least on paper. I would think it would be down to the valve. The variable output resistance should help to tame the high's a bit too.
  
 I see HD 800's in my future but it's going to be a couple of years away yet. It would be good to not _need_ to upgrade my amp too.


----------



## MattTCG

I just don't see much of anyone talking about the hd800 and project ember. On paper, it looks to be a good budget choice.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, I just found that using other medium/low level amps as a pre-amp into the Ember can further refine the sound! Just when I thought my 'Franken Ember' was the best it can possibly sound, this setup seems to have taken it about 20% further. You can read my impressions here. That would also be interesting to read from others when they connect their other medium/low level amps into the Ember, and see how it may further improve it for them as well, using various tubes. Don't get me wrong, I saw no fault with the Ember alone, until someone recommended this to me - you may be surprised!


----------



## Solrighal

What were you feeding the Ember with before the Capella?


----------



## DecentLevi

I was just using the Ember directly from the line-out of my Gustard X12 DAC. I'm pretty sure I like this setup using the Capella as a preamp (via headphone out to RCA) to the Ember - it's more detailed, etc. but sometimes it seems a little too analytical. I'm sure some of you have a low/medium spec amp lying around and that would be interesting to see how much farther you can up the performance of the Ember using it as a preamp like I had done.


----------



## Solrighal

decentlevi said:


> I was just using the Ember directly from the line-out of my Gustard X12 DAC. I'm pretty sure I like this setup using the Capella as a preamp (via headphone out to RCA) to the Ember - it's more detailed, etc. but sometimes it seems a little too analytical. I'm sure some of you have a low/medium spec amp lying around and that would be interesting to see how much farther you can up the performance of the Ember using it as a preamp like I had done.


 
  
 You may prefer the sound but it cannot be "more detailed". It's just not logical Captain.


----------



## DavidA

matttcg said:


> I just don't see much of anyone talking about the hd800 and project ember. On paper, it looks to be a good budget choice.


 
 Tried my HD-800 with the Ember but the BH Crack just sounds better with the HD-800, the dynamics are better and the highs are smoother IMO.


----------



## MattTCG

davida said:


> Tried my HD-800 with the Ember but the BH Crack just sounds better with the HD-800, the dynamics are better and the highs are smoother IMO.


 
  
 Thanks David...I appreciate the input.


----------



## Demo3

Got my Ember today... wooot.


----------



## DavidA

demo3 said:


> Got my Ember today... wooot.


 
 Hope you enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed mine
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Its one of the most versatile amps I've ever come across, great with almost all the headphone that I have.


----------



## DecentLevi

"...I like this setup using the Capella as a preamp (via headphone out to RCA) to the Ember - it's more detailed..." (than with Ember alone)
  
 Quote:


solrighal said:


> You may prefer the sound but it cannot be "more detailed". It's just not logical Captain.


 
  
 When looking at connecting an amp to another amp in the perspective that each time you add an extra component to a signal path it must subtract from the original signal, it would seem logical to assume as above. However, as I understand it, since each amp is essentially further enhancing 'amping' the signal, then you do actually get more detail from 2 amps connected series than with just one amp alone. I have done rigorous A/B testing with multiple daisy-chained amp setups, dozens of times and with multiple hi-end headphones, only to conclude the this method unmistakably adds extra detail to the sound - usually noticeable by more accurate reproduction of cymbals and faster attack / decay of the drums & bassline.
  
 This method is more experimental than mainstay however, because sometimes it gives you too much detail and a more 'distant' feel to the sound.


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> When looking at connecting an amp to another amp in the perspective that each time you add an extra component to a signal path it must subtract from the original signal, it would seem logical to assume as above. However, as I understand it, since each amp is essentially further enhancing 'amping' the signal, then you do actually get more detail from 2 amps connected series than with just one amp alone. I have done rigorous A/B testing with multiple daisy-chained amp setups, dozens of times and with multiple hi-end headphones, only to conclude the this method unmistakably adds extra detail to the sound - usually noticeable by more accurate reproduction of cymbals and faster attack / decay of the drums & bassline.
> 
> This method is more experimental than mainstay however, because sometimes it gives you too much detail and a more 'distant' feel to the sound.


 

 But doesn't each amp also add its own distortion to the signal?  Would it not be better to use a signal processor (EQ) within the computer to "enhance" the signal prior to sending it to your amp?
  
 As a test I tried sending the headphone output of my UD-301 to the Ember and there is slight drop in clarity, the highs are not as clear and the bass is not as extended.
  
 This is just me and my GF doing some simple listening test so take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## DecentLevi

In my setup I was using a solid state amp as the preamp, and as far as I know, these don't add distortion. The changes I heard were mostly detail retrieval and speed related changes. Equalizers can boost/reduce certain frequencies, but don't generally actually add nuances in the recording that weren't audible before. Compressors on the other hand can change the speed (attack, decay, sustain, release) of sounds, so comparing the way daisy-chained amps to the way compressors effect the speed would be more of a valid argument.
  
 Double-amping is dependent the output amount and gain settings of the two amps, especially the first amp, so not all double amp setups have good synergy together. It's generally more efficient to use the lower spec amp first, otherwise the more powerful amp's output would be cancelled out. You can also read from some others who have gotten a marvelous result from double amping here and here.
  
 "_For what it's worth, the 1/4 to RCA between my Capella and both my Garage 1217 tube amps works extremely well. More power, headroom, sound-stage, no distortions-but I limit the vol on the Capella to around 10 and the Garage amps settle at around 10-11 for loud realistic listening. Actually this set up sounds better than connecting RCA to RCA, and you can, of course, use all the tweaks._"
  
 "_Alright, I made it work and it does sound better. Connection is Capella 1/4 jack to H10 RCA. _
_All relative but: bass is tighter and sub-bass is much stronger. Much more detail extraction, more organic sounding (especially vocals!), more dynamic, soundstage is holographic, much more expansive.._."


----------



## Solrighal

I've sat here for a good 10 minutes thinking of what to type but I can't really come up with anything constructive so I'll stick with my original statement, you cannot have _more detail_ by simply making the signal path longer. You may prefer the resultant sound but that is not the same thing.


----------



## connieflyer

decentlevi said:


> In my setup I was using a solid state amp as the preamp, and as far as I know, these don't add distortion. The changes I heard were mostly detail retrieval and speed related changes. Equalizers can boost/reduce certain frequencies, but don't generally actually add nuances in the recording that weren't audible before. Compressors on the other hand can change the speed (attack, decay, sustain, release) of sounds, so comparing the way daisy-chained amps to the way compressors effect the speed would be more of a valid argument.
> 
> Double-amping is dependent the output amount and gain settings of the two amps, especially the first amp, so not all double amp setups have good synergy together. It's generally more efficient to use the lower spec amp first, otherwise the more powerful amp's output would be cancelled out. You can also read from some others who have gotten a marvelous result from double amping here and here.
> 
> ...


 

 Unless you have been trained in Electronic theory you really have to stop making statements that you "think" are true.  All components add distortion some more than others, but until you can come up with a straight wire with gain, discounting the wire of course, you will always have some distortion.


----------



## melkenshawn

connieflyer said:


> Unless you have been trained in Electronic theory you really have to stop making statements that you "think" are true.  All components add distortion some more than others, but until you can come up with a straight wire with gain, discounting the wire of course, you will always have some distortion.




Personally I think your reply was kinda harsh. His statements might not be scientifically correct, but if he thinks it makes a discernible difference for the better and wanted to share his experience with everyone else, should we discourage such behavior?


----------



## connieflyer

I don't think I am being harsh at all.  You can make all the claims you want as to how you preceive something, but leave out the technical details that are incorrect.  If he thinks running the signal path the way he is, is the best, more power to him, just don't equate the results with some technical jargon just to impress or make your perception seem more valid, and yes I do have a fair amount of electronic background.  I don't make claims to things I don't understand just to have something to say.  If you think that this is still harsh, well, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it


----------



## DecentLevi

So perhaps all amps do add some distortion. But in my case, it wasn't audible and in fact my ears were telling me the opposite.* This hobby is not all about science, but about what sounds good to you personally.* There are many elements of the hobby that are in the 'grey' scientific realm where science may not explain it, but your ears are happy. For example some people may like stock cables better than the more electrically efficient ones - according to science it should be the opposite, but our ears tell us otherwise - and that's all that's important; unless this is a debate in  from the sound science forums on Head-Fi (check it out). Likewise it's compulsory to try something yourself before discounting it, otherwise you are only spreading heresay. Sometimes I may explain things the wrong way with science, but it's just human nature to put hypotheses out there. And I thank you for pointing errors out that I may make sometimes, which made it more mysterious how my ears would like it although it may not have scientific backing.
  
 I was only trying to 'spread the good news' of a recent rig setup I recently discovered, so that maybe some of you can also be wowed that your system can perform even better than it is. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to cause a 'rift' between us. I value the diversity of opinions and look forward to learning from each other in the future, because actually, _all of us are still learning_, myself included. I will take my Ember 2.0 to the SF HeadFi meet on Saturday and see how it stacks up against other amps.


----------



## Demo3

decentlevi said:


> So perhaps all amps do add some distortion. But in my case, it wasn't audible and in fact my ears were telling me the opposite.* This hobby is not all about science, but about what sounds good to you personally.* There are many elements of the hobby that are in the 'grey' scientific realm where science may not explain it, but your ears are happy. For example some people may like stock cables better than the more electrically efficient ones - according to science it should be the opposite, but our ears tell us otherwise - and that's all that's important; unless this is a debate in  from the sound science forums on Head-Fi (check it out). Likewise it's compulsory to try something yourself before discounting it, otherwise you are only spreading heresay. Sometimes I may explain things the wrong way with science, but it's just human nature to put hypotheses out there. And I thank you for pointing errors out that I may make sometimes, which made it more mysterious how my ears would like it although it may not have scientific backing.
> 
> I was only trying to 'spread the good news' of a recent rig setup I recently discovered, so that maybe some of you can also be wowed that your system can perform even better than it is. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to cause a 'rift' between us. I value the diversity of opinions and look forward to learning from each other in the future, because actually, _all of us are still learning_, myself included. I will take my Ember 2.0 to the SF HeadFi meet on Saturday and see how it stacks up against other amps.


 
 +1 *DecentLevi*
  
 Yep... I think this discussion is for what someones ear hears.


----------



## Solrighal

If it were all about science then none of us would be using a valve amp in the first place. The problem is that you said you heard more _detail_. That is a quantifiable thing and it simply cannot be achieved by making the signal path longer. Detail comes from the quality of the source & the directness of the path to your ears and brain.
  
 You perceive a preferable sound as more detail but it's simply a sound that you prefer, nothing more & nothing less.
  
 My first amp was an O2 & I chose it for two virtues. The first was that it was cheap. The second and more significant reason was that I did the research and completely bought into the straight wire with gain philosophy. I got on great with it. Right up until I got a trial of the Project Ember at home. It was nothing less than a revelation! It really flew in the face of logic & I struggled with why it could be better. I also struggled with how I was going to afford it because, make no mistake, I had to have it.
  
 I tried to explain the difference I heard at the time and the best I could come up with was to suggest that all the same information was there as it was in the O2 but the Ember took all that information and threw it in the air. The Ember - or more accurately - the valve in the Ember - allows that information to fall in a different way. A more pleasurable way to me and, I suspect, the HD 650's in particular.
  
 If I listen to a really complex mix like Röyksopp on both the O2 & the Ember I find that different parts of the music are brought to the fore when a valve is in the mix. Similarly some parts of the music recede into the background. It's all still there, but presented in a different way.
  
 Anyway, I hope that lets you see where I'm coming from.


----------



## Amish

I Love Ember.


----------



## Solrighal

amish said:


> I Love Ember.


 
  
 +1


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> +1


 
 I've just ordered Ember


----------



## HOWIE13

demo3 said:


> +1 *DecentLevi*
> 
> Yep... I think this discussion is for what someones ear hears.


 
 Agree.
 The difference is between electronic detail enhancement and aural detail perception. Adding such components can't increase electronic detail. However, if the added audio components relatively enhance certain audible frequencies the ear may _perceive_ this as added detail. For instance, if I am listening to a flute concerto I will hear the flute's higher frequencies more clearly with a K701 than an X1, even though the source and amp are identical for both cans. Presumably the Capella, working as a pre-amp in the situations sited, is just altering certain audible frequencies in a way which enhances the sound of certain key instruments making them sound clearer and more detailed.
 Distortion is more difficult for me because some sounds awful, some sounds euphonic and some is inaudible. The Capella as a preamp appears to produce only the last two of these in the set ups mentioned, which is fortunate.


----------



## Amish

My new volume knob arrived. It is huge. Comically big. I'm laughing every time I look at it.


----------



## HOWIE13

You certainly won't have a problem getting perfect volume control but you will have to be careful not to accidentally knock it.


----------



## Solrighal

amish said:


> My new volume knob arrived. It is huge. Comically big. I'm laughing every time I look at it.


 
  
 Eek!


----------



## Amish

What I ordered was a smaller knob. China is playing games with me though.


----------



## Solrighal

It's certainly unusual, possibly unique.


----------



## richard51

amish said:


> What I ordered was a smaller knob. China is playing games with me though.


 

 Please give me the chineese link order


----------



## Amish

This is not the knob I ordered. But I can still get you the link. Only issue is I had to modify this to fit. By default the knob's internal hole doesn't fit on the shaft. If you still want it I will locate it for u.


----------



## HOWIE13

http://www.satopartsusa.com/prod_detail/default.cfm?sku=P2K4M5&title=K-52-KE-1%20Metal%20Knob
  
 This one fits okay, came with a recessed screw.


----------



## Solrighal

Garage 1217 should sell a branded Rocket blower.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Garage 1217 should sell a branded Rocket blower.


 
 Great idea-but first Jeremy has to produce that dual 7193 to 6dj8 adapter for us.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Great idea-but first Jeremy has to produce that dual 7193 to 6dj8 adapter for us.


 
  
 Indeed, that would be very desireable.


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> Great idea-but first Jeremy has to produce that dual 7193 to 6dj8 adapter for us.




What is wrong with the existing ones apart from being shipped from Hong Kong?


----------



## richard51

solrighal said:


> Garage 1217 should sell a branded Rocket blower.


 
  


howie13 said:


> Great idea-but first Jeremy has to produce that dual 7193 to 6dj8 adapter for us.


 
  


howie13 said:


> http://www.satopartsusa.com/prod_detail/default.cfm?sku=P2K4M5&title=K-52-KE-1%20Metal%20Knob
> 
> This one fits okay, came with a recessed screw.


 

 the three should be a great improvement with this marvellous amp !


----------



## Solrighal




----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> What is wrong with the existing ones apart from being shipped from Hong Kong? ;-


 
 Yeah-that's one big problem-still waiting after 4 weeks for one to be delivered from Hong Kong


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Yeah-that's one big problem-still waiting after 4 weeks for one to be delivered from Hong Kong


 
  
 Aye, that's way too long mate.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Aye, that's way too long mate.


 
 Off on holiday tomorrow so hopefully it will arrive by the time I get back. If not I guess another will have to be sent. There isn't much choice.


----------



## bbball

I am wondering if anyone know this. So I am using Ember to drive my Beyerdynamic T1, which has 600 ohm impedance but to be considered fairly easy to drive compare to other hard to drive cans. The thing is no matter how I change the output impedance of the Ember, the gain or the sound signature of T1 will be the same. The sound won't change with the different output impedance settings like other cans. I also tried different tubes like 6sn7, 12au7, 12ax7, 6dj8 and the result is same. I mean, the sound does change with different tubes but not with different impedance settings.


----------



## MattTCG

bbball said:


> I am wondering if anyone know this. So I am using Ember to drive my Beyerdynamic T1, which has 600 ohm impedance but to be considered fairly easy to drive compare to other hard to drive cans. The thing is no matter how I change the output impedance of the Ember, the gain or the sound signature of T1 will be the same. The sound won't change with the different output impedance settings like other cans. I also tried different tubes like 6sn7, 12au7, 12ax7, 6dj8 and the result is same. I mean, the sound does change with different tubes but not with different impedance settings.


 
  
 I have not tried that headphone with the Ember but I'd think that you'd need high gain and the medium impedance setting. Are you using high gain?


----------



## MindsMirror

bbball said:


> I am wondering if anyone know this. So I am using Ember to drive my Beyerdynamic T1, which has 600 ohm impedance but to be considered fairly easy to drive compare to other hard to drive cans. The thing is no matter how I change the output impedance of the Ember, the gain or the sound signature of T1 will be the same. The sound won't change with the different output impedance settings like other cans. I also tried different tubes like 6sn7, 12au7, 12ax7, 6dj8 and the result is same. I mean, the sound does change with different tubes but not with different impedance settings.


 
 I read that your amp has 3 selectable output impedances ranging from 0.1 to 120 Ohms. Even the maximum setting of 120 Ohms is not very significant compared to the T1's 600 Ohm impedance, so you may not perceive much difference. To a lower impedance headphone, the 120 Ohm output impedance is more significant so you can expect more difference in sound.


----------



## bbball

matttcg said:


> I have not tried that headphone with the Ember but I'd think that you'd need high gain and the medium impedance setting. Are you using high gain?


 
  
  
 I mean for loudness, it's pretty loud even I use low gain. And I think the input gain is for the input signal and it may only affects the loudness not the sound signature if I am right.


----------



## Amish

howie13 said:


> Great idea-but first Jeremy has to produce that dual 7193 to 6dj8 adapter for us.


 
 I'd be happy with the new transformer....Jeremy?


----------



## bbball

mindsmirror said:


> I read that your amp has 3 selectable output impedances ranging from 0.1 to 120 Ohms. Even the maximum setting of 120 Ohms is not very significant compared to the T1's 600 Ohm impedance, so you may not perceive much difference. To a lower impedance headphone, the 120 Ohm output impedance is more significant so you can expect more difference in sound.


 
 I see. One reason I am curious about this is I just not sure if the T1 can be fully driven by the Ember since the impedance is kind of high.


----------



## Tunkejazz

cheaphifi said:


> ...is the transparence help to enjoy your music?


 
 Nah, it is a good slam in the bass


----------



## Tunkejazz

I have now been listening while in the office (total usage time of my Ember must be around 30h). I have experience quite a drift in the sound signature as it burns in, which I did not expect to be so dramatic. After 10 hours it literally became dull and flat. Now it is clean, weighty and crispy. Initially, I thought it was due to my Raytheon 6sn7gtb, but it actually sounds quite ok now, not too different from the Sylvania 6sn7gt that I could borrow from Johan.
  
 I don't have problems with the hum, but I have noticed that many tubes pick interferences from all the wifi's and phones that are around in the office. Right on the corner of my table there is a sweet spot though 
  
 I will try to post my impressions with some of the tubes once I am sure it has settled, or whatever placebo effect that I may be experiencing is gone.


----------



## rmouser

decentlevi said:


> In my setup I was using a solid state amp as the preamp, and as far as I know, these don't add distortion. The changes I heard were mostly detail retrieval and speed related changes. Equalizers can boost/reduce certain frequencies, but don't generally actually add nuances in the recording that weren't audible before. Compressors on the other hand can change the speed (attack, decay, sustain, release) of sounds, so comparing the way daisy-chained amps to the way compressors effect the speed would be more of a valid argument.
> 
> Double-amping is dependent the output amount and gain settings of the two amps, especially the first amp, so not all double amp setups have good synergy together. It's generally more efficient to use the lower spec amp first, otherwise the more powerful amp's output would be cancelled out. You can also read from some others who have gotten a marvelous result from double amping here and here.
> 
> ...


 
 You use a lot of descriptive words here: attack, decay, sustain, release, synergy, extraction, organic, etc. I doubt that you are that well trained and know what the words actually mean. Are you just repeating words you read?
  
 In agreement with those that state adding more circuitry to the signal is going to add more of your words to the sound.


----------



## DecentLevi

I realise it's sometimes difficult to tell how experienced other users are on these forums. But checking their profile first, asking them privately, or even trying the said concepts first-hand can allow you to draw a practical conclusion first. (gathering evidence and testing things is the only valid way of finding the truth).
 
I in fact do have quite a lot of background with the topics I was mentioning about. I have been dabbling with recording / manipulating sound effects since the mid 1980's, and finally in recent years I started taking it more seriously, on the audio production side. I have also been into the audiophile hobby for about 7 years. Funny thing is I just realised I'm more experienced with sound design / mastering than the audiophile hobby, so feel free to let me know if I'm using too much mastering-related jargon, or just ask me and I will do my best to explain these concepts when I can. I don't claim to be an expert on either topic, and just like all of us, I'm still learning. But I can assure you that I am exclusively familiar with the points that I mention.
 
Starting with the terms "attack, decay, sustain, release" (ADSR): this is an 'envelope' which is essentially a visual representation of the volume of a sound over time in relation to: the length until the start of the initial point of the sound, the length of this initial point, length of the main section of the sound, and the length until the sound completely fades out. While this may sound like a lot, many sounds are actually quite fast and the most audible parts are the attack and release. While this term usually relates to synthesizers and compressors, it also relates to amplifiers and headphones/speakers in that one of their main functions is to reproduce the PRaT (pace, rhythm & timing) in a realistic way.

 ​ Both of the above functions are related to dynamics / speed of sounds, and quite clearly, a main difference an amp makes is refining the original source so that you can hear an improvement with things like punchyness / impact, detail / clarity, etc. Therefore it stands to reason that two amps connected in series _should _be able to provide a more detailed sound.
 
In regards to the idea that a longer signal path only adds distortion / subtracts from the original source: On one side of the coin this could be true. *From an electrical standpoint*, a longer cable and more components should reduce the detail of the original signal.* But from a 'listeners' perspective,* Consider what role do these play: a transformer boosting current an a power grid, a USB signal cleaner such as the Wyrd, or a huge amp with dozens of circuits vs. a small amp? As you can gather,* a longer signal path does not always amount to a reduction in perceived fidelity.* Rather it can enhance certain elements.
 
I have tried multiple combinations of double-amping: multiple critical-listening sessions with a high end source chain and headphone, A/B'ing dozens of times with the same portion of the same song being played on a loop, and I have realised that there is an absolute undeniable increase in the amount of detail and dynamics / speed. Several others have recognized this as a valid configuration as well, such as the ones mentioned above from the Beresford Capella thread, and also when several highly reputable Head-Fi'ers had tested the Geek Out v2 at a recent meet - it was double amped and they were all in unanamous agreement of how good it sounded.
 
*I would however like to revise my initial review of double-amping with the Ember amp.* During critical listening I chose the double-amped setup as the best (with Capella amp to Ember via headphone to RCA cable). But later I realised that while this sounds more detailed and 'fast', the highs actually sounded too analytical for average listening sessions and caused a strange effect on the lower frequencies, almost as if the bass was more distant sounding and had a stereo phasing issue. So with double-amping (daisy chaining), synergy plays a major role, possibly even moreso than with normal audio rigs. In order to utilize the most efficient gain stage, it's important to place the most powerful amp at the end, with the lower power amp first, also to reduce the chance of overloading the input stage of the 2nd amp. So basically I was just trying to encourage anybody who has a medium spec amp such as the Magni, O2 or Capella to go ahead and give it a try as a 'preamp' into the Ember to see if it just might make things sound even better for you. *And of course, not all setups yield good results together.*
 
 PS - The words from my previous posts in _italics _were a quote from another user who had heard an audible improvement from double amping. And yes I understand all of the words I use. FYI here is the Head-Fi glossary of describing sounds.
 http://www.head-fi.org/a/describing-sound-a-glossary
  
  
A few other quotes in support of this theory:​  Quote:


demo3 said:


> +1 *DecentLevi*
> 
> Yep... I think this discussion is for what someones ear hears.


 
  
 Quote:


howie13 said:


> Agree.
> The difference is between electronic detail enhancement and aural detail perception. Adding such components can't increase electronic detail. However, if the added audio components relatively enhance certain audible frequencies the ear may _perceive_ this as added detail. For instance, if I am listening to a flute concerto I will hear the flute's higher frequencies more clearly with a K701 than an X1, even though the source and amp are identical for both cans. Presumably the Capella, working as a pre-amp in the situations sited, is just altering certain audible frequencies in a way which enhances the sound of certain key instruments making them sound clearer and more detailed.
> Distortion is more difficult for me because some sounds awful, some sounds euphonic and some is inaudible. The Capella as a preamp appears to produce only the last two of these in the set ups mentioned, which is fortunate.


----------



## connieflyer

According to this, you are listening to an altered signal, you can achieve the same results by combining the signal through processors and graphic equalizers, dacs and through other software programs like Suzie Q and alter the level and attack of the signal at any point you wish to attain a (better, louder more clearly deliniated) sound at the frequency that does not exist on the original recording.  Why not ask the artist what he meant or the recording engineer why he chose the mix he did.  The mere fact that I can alter a song to match my tastes does not make it better, just different from someone else preception of what was meant to be heard.  You like it like that go for it, but don't make claims that it is superior in some way just because you played around with multiple amping.


----------



## rmouser

And you can actually hear all of those factors with multiple instruments playing and differentiate between them?


----------



## Solrighal

I'm of the opinion that as soon as you introduce a valve into the chain you fundamentally believe in EQ. If you don't then buy an O2 and be done with hi-fi forever. It's total nonsense to suggest that just by lengthening the signal path you are improving the end result. You may well find the end result more _preferable_ but it is not _better_.


----------



## Amish

Damn I love this tube. Oh and of course the Ember!


----------



## Tunkejazz

@HOWIE13
 where did you get your volume knob? ...it looks terrific in full metal!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> @HOWIE13
> where did you get your volume knob? ...it looks terrific in full metal!


 
  
  
 Hi - I presume you mean the one on the Horizon on my profile picture.
 I got it from a seller in China-here's the link:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321272824594?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 The picture on his webpage shows it as having a black rim but it came as completely silver. It might be worth checking with the seller that he will be sending you a completely silver one, if that's what you like.
 It fitted fine on the Horizon and really helps fine tune the vol.
 Good luck!


----------



## vaibhavp

does anyone know how attenuation module work??
  
 its like an op amp with resistors on top. if I remove it, it does not work. do I have to buy separate module to attenuate?


----------



## iancraig10

We were discussing this on DIYAH. I don't think they're available yet. I suggested a cheap adjustable patch wire made by Shure, but Solderdude was saying that this was the equivalent of raising the output impedance. He then suggested making a patch lead until modules became available.

There's also the EQ unit on simmer!!


----------



## btrancho

vaibhavp said:


> does anyone know how attenuation module work??
> 
> its like an op amp with resistors on top. if I remove it, it does not work. do I have to buy separate module to attenuate?



The attenuation module is simply a pair of resistors mounted in a DIP socket. There is no op amp. They attenuate the input by adding resistance when you choose the low attenuation setting. They are bypassed when you choose the high setting. I would assume that if you set the Ember to the low setting but remove the attenuation module you are breaking the circuit.

You attenuate by leaving it in place and choosing the low setting. You can change the resistors to change the attenuation. The higher the resistor value the more attenuation.


----------



## richard51

I will like to give some revised experience of mine with receiver driving planars  directly from the speakers out (mine was Hitachi sr 904 a good one).. *First* i made this attempt with  a powerful receiver before i had added the sorbothane mod adequately to my HE 400, and the result of this experience was at first better for some reasons (power add presence) with the receiver than with the Ember amp that i had put after that on preamp function for my speakers at this time... *Second* i go on with the receiver when i discovered the right manner to put the sorb, because  the result was way more  better also  with the receiver ( i had not connect the Ember at this time with the new sorb mod of mine) ...BUT yesterday i changed my cabling and decide to try anew the Ember with the sorbothane modification i had rightly implemented... WOW ! the detailed soundstage and subtle presence of the sound was more preferable for me that the brute force of the receiver now ...The effect of the sorb mod  version 2 was more pleasurable, more sensitive, and more effective with the Ember...Hence the _*Ember*_ is there to live with me... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 best regards to you all...
  
  
 p.s. Sorbothane mod is more important than a change of amplifier for the HE 400 like Estrelow said about the Stax  headphones, i confirm his opinion... The Ember is a very, very good amplifier for his price probably without competition..


----------



## Tunkejazz

richard51 don't try the Polaris then


----------



## richard51

tunkejazz said:


> @richard51 don't try the Polaris then


 
 i vow here in the face of the God of music not to buy the Polaris...i am married with the Ember..


----------



## CookiePrime

How does Project Ember compare against its lesser siblings?
  
 Am I right in thinking that
  
 Project Starlight (16-300 Ohms) = Low cost brother
 Project Sunrise III (32-300 Ohms) = The original Garage design
 Project Solstice (32-600 Ohms): Less power, cheaper version of Ember II?
 Project Ember (32-600 Ohms) = Flagship hybrid tube amp
  
 Is there a reason to choose Project Ember over Project Starlight/Sunrise III/Solstice when my headphone Fidelio X2 is rated at only 30 Ohms impedance? Will there be an improvement in SQ other than the extra power Ember provides? I am seeing a lot of Ember hype compared to other Garage amps, leading me to suspect that Ember may have superior parts/implementation.


----------



## Tunkejazz

cookieprime said:


> How does Project Ember compare against its lesser siblings?
> 
> Am I right in thinking that
> 
> ...


 

 I would mention that the Ember is AFAIK the only one on the list that allows to bypass the input caps, which changes slightly the sound signature (for good in my opinion).


----------



## CookiePrime

Thanks for the info.


----------



## Asr

cookieprime said:


> How does Project Ember compare against its lesser siblings?
> Am I right in thinking that
> 
> Project Starlight (16-300 Ohms) = Low cost brother
> ...


 
  
 The Solstice isn't really a "cheaper version" of the Ember, just a different amp, and it actually has certain advantages over the Ember too. I just wrote a review of the Solstice that covers the sonic difference between it and the Ember: http://www.head-fi.org/products/garage1217-project-solstice/reviews/14378
  
 Also Jeremy @ Garage1217 is an incredible resource, you can (and should) ask him any questions you have about any of the amps.


----------



## CookiePrime

I have emailed Jeremy and he is indeed a nice guy.
  
 Nice review btw.


----------



## Tuneslover

I have been saving up for a Project Ember and was hoping to pull the trigger in the spring but Schiit just released the Vali2. I do realize there's a pretty big difference in power and versatility between these 2 amps but the $169 price point, I must say, has me tempted. So long as the Vali2 is able to drive my HD650's and HE500's properly this might be a good tube entry option.

Any opinions for or against? Thanks.


----------



## richard51

i dont know for the Vali.... But with some adapter you can roll many more tube with more flexibility (impredence, gain, resistence adjustment ) and the Ember is a marvel with no negative comment anywhere... Plus this is a pre amplifier for my  powered speakers.... 169 dollars less but..... it is not great economy ....  i had only listen to one schiit amp i cannot made advise so.....I dont regret my Ember for the last 2 years and it has been an upgrade with each family tube i had try... i wish to you the best...


----------



## connieflyer

If you are going for your first amp make it one that is more versatile, it will keep you happy longer, the Embers versatility is amazing.  The number and types of tubes and adapters to try is really the way to go.  If you think you will be happy with just rolling a couple of tubes that all same pretty much the same then save the money, or save for a little longer and get an Ember.  Twice now I have checked into getting a more expensive amp and in the end this ember just is too much fun, the sound dynamics on the hd650 are just great.  Rolling using dual adapters to use single triodes is even more fun.  I have tried more tubes that were not listed in the manual and am having a ball.  $169 is not much difference compared to what you are getting.  Great products, fast effiecent service, and advice from Frans the designer himself.  Forum memebers on this thread are very helpful. But in the end, only you can decide.


----------



## HOWIE13

tuneslover said:


> I have been saving up for a Project Ember and was hoping to pull the trigger in the spring but Schiit just released the Vali2. I do realize there's a pretty big difference in power and versatility between these 2 amps but the $169 price point, I must say, has me tempted. So long as the Vali2 is able to drive my HD650's and HE500's properly this might be a good tube entry option.
> 
> Any opinions for or against? Thanks.


 
 If you ultimately decide that the Ember is too expensive have you considered the cheaper G1217 options?
 I have the Starlight(R1.0) and it's kick-ass for the HD650, 100db at 12 on the vol pot with a medium gain 6SN7, and low output impedance setting, listening to relatively low level recorded Classical.
 Don't know how it would power the HE500 but my HE400 easily achieves 100db at 11 with the first couple of minutes of Rammstein's 'Links 2 3 4',  there's no distortion and seems like there's plenty of headroom available.(Didn't go any louder as I don't want to damage my hearing).
 The Vali 2 does have a lot of power on offer for it's size and cost but from the specs it appears that the cheaper G1217 amps have loads more on offer to allow you to adjust the sound the way you want, which to my way of thinking is at least as important as sheer power anyway.


----------



## DavidA

tuneslover said:


> I have been saving up for a Project Ember and was hoping to pull the trigger in the spring but Schiit just released the Vali2. I do realize there's a pretty big difference in power and versatility between these 2 amps but the $169 price point, I must say, has me tempted. So long as the Vali2 is able to drive my HD650's and HE500's properly this might be a good tube entry option.
> 
> Any opinions for or against? Thanks.


 
 The Vali2 might not be enough for the HE500, I was listening to my friends HE-500/400/560/400i/1K a few months ago when I was in Japan for his daughters wedding and we were trying many different amps, DACs along will many other headphones.  The HE-500 only really sounded good with powerful amps that had a large voltage? swing. 
  
 The price of the Ember is actually really good for what you get, its also one of the most versatile amps that I have used.  I think the price difference between the Vali2 and Ember make the Ember a better deal IMO.


----------



## connieflyer

Agree with Howie13 check out the other offerings with Garage1217, compare it to the Polaris also....http://diyah.boards.net/thread/1073/comparison-polaris-ember


----------



## Tuneslover

Thank you everyone who have responded to my question about the higher priced Project Ember (versus the Schiit Vali2). My intention originally was to purchase the Ember and most likely I will due to its versatility and better power. I have a pretty decent SS amp that plays very nicely with my HD650's and HE500's so in reality I should get something comparable quality wise in a tube amplifier that will do these headphones justice as well.

Appreciate your feedback, great forum.


----------



## Thujone

For the headphones that you have, both amps will provide plenty of power. That's no problem. Ember has more setup options but it also is not a good match for IEMs or other highly efficient headphones. My Fostex TH-X00, for example, have a very noticeable noisefloor when plugged into Ember at 0 volume.
  
 I have owned Ember for a couple years and I love it (#1 amp for a lot of my headphones), but I just bought a Vali 2 to accommodate my Fostex and other efficient headphones.
  
 Also, FWIW, I really didn't enjoy most of the tubes I've tried with Ember, including a couple 6SN7 tubes. People have gone nuts with tubes on this amp and, while I'm sure they found some spectacular matches, my simple 6DJ8 Bugle Boy tube has been better than every other tube I've tried. Point being: the tube rolling may empty your pocket faster than you would like and the Vali 2 will not allow this to happen.


----------



## Tunkejazz

thujone said:


> For the headphones that you have, both amps will provide plenty of power. That's no problem. Ember has more setup options but it also is not a good match for IEMs or other highly efficient headphones. My Fostex TH-X00, for example, have a very noticeable noisefloor when plugged into Ember at 0 volume.
> 
> I have owned Ember for a couple years and I love it (#1 amp for a lot of my headphones), but I just bought a Vali 2 to accommodate my Fostex and other efficient headphones.
> 
> Also, FWIW, I really didn't enjoy most of the tubes I've tried with Ember, including a couple 6SN7 tubes. People have gone nuts with tubes on this amp and, while I'm sure they found some spectacular matches, my simple 6DJ8 Bugle Boy tube has been better than every other tube I've tried. Point being: the tube rolling may empty your pocket faster than you would like and the Vali 2 will not allow this to happen.




Well...my Ember with 25ohm headphones can be pretty quiet depending on the tube I use (it can be noisy too). 

Saying that the Vali2 will not empty your pocket is...let's say not true. In the Vali2 thread some people are already discussing tubes that can cost more than the amp (i.e. telefunken e88cc).


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Well...my Ember with 25ohm headphones can be pretty quiet depending on the tube I use (it can be noisy too).
> 
> Saying that the Vali2 will not empty your pocket is...let's say not true. In the Vali2 thread some people are already discussing tubes that can cost more than the amp (i.e. telefunken e88cc).


 
  


tunkejazz said:


> Well...my Ember with 25ohm headphones can be pretty quiet depending on the tube I use (it can be noisy too).
> 
> Saying that the Vali2 will not empty your pocket is...let's say not true. In the Vali2 thread some people are already discussing tubes that can cost more than the amp (i.e. telefunken e88cc).


 
 Indeed, and added to that in general terms, with one or two notable exceptions, it's been my experience that the better 6DJ8's are more expensive than many good Octals.


----------



## HOWIE13

thujone said:


> For the headphones that you have, both amps will provide plenty of power. That's no problem. Ember has more setup options but it also is not a good match for IEMs or other highly efficient headphones. My Fostex TH-X00, for example, have a very noticeable noisefloor when plugged into Ember at 0 volume.
> 
> I have owned Ember for a couple years and I love it (#1 amp for a lot of my headphones), but I just bought a Vali 2 to accommodate my Fostex and other efficient headphones.
> 
> Also, FWIW, I really didn't enjoy most of the tubes I've tried with Ember, including a couple 6SN7 tubes. People have gone nuts with tubes on this amp and, while I'm sure they found some spectacular matches, my simple 6DJ8 Bugle Boy tube has been better than every other tube I've tried. Point being: the tube rolling may empty your pocket faster than you would like and the Vali 2 will not allow this to happen.


 
 I found Ember to synergise pretty well with most of the tubes I've tried.  Some have been excellent, some reasonable, but none, maybe surprisingly, really poor. Bugle Boy is also my favourite 6DJ8 for Ember but tweaking with the Octals has furthered my horizon and desires.


----------



## Thujone

tunkejazz said:


> Saying that the Vali2 will not empty your pocket is...let's say not true. In the Vali2 thread some people are already discussing tubes that can cost more than the amp (i.e. telefunken e88cc).




The amp is twice as expensive (almost) and is very limited in the amount of tubes you can try. Your argument can easily be used against Ember.


----------



## Thujone

Let me clarify, since I don't want to upset the hype train:
  
 1. Project Ember is the best amp purchase I've made to date; it has the best value for the price. Period. Ember has so many possible configurations and it can easily drive my HE-6 without issues.
  
 2. Ember does have its faults. No, it isn't the quietest amp with IEMs and other sensitive headphones. Even Polaris apparently has issues here, and it doesn't have the tube distortion to go with it.
  
 3. Ember's auto-bias opens a much bigger realm of tubes than Vali 2. If you love tube rolling (as most do), this isn't a bad thing. There are enormously expensive tubes that can be put in Ember or Vali 2, so that's a moot point.
  
 4. I personally found plenty of tubes that I really dislike for _my tastes_. I would prefer a warmer, punchier tube over a dry tube with poor dynamics. I have had to purchase more tubes than necessary, but such is the life of tube rolling. Sure, you can find tubes that are quieter, but what about the sound? Trying to find a tube to satisfy your sensitive headphones (good sound, low noise) is almost another journey in and of itself.


----------



## HOWIE13

thujone said:


> Let me clarify, since I don't want to upset the hype train:
> 
> 1. Project Ember is the best amp purchase I've made to date; it has the best value for the price. Period. Ember has so many possible configurations and it can easily drive my HE-6 without issues.
> 
> ...


 
 I have the Ember, Horizon and Starlight and the Starlight suits IEM's best IMHO. There is no noise and there is still a lot of opportunity to tweak if you want to, actually more so than it's more expensive siblings in some respects.
 It costs about the same as the Vali so I think it would be the natural G1217 amp to compare with the Vali.


----------



## Thujone

@HOWIE13, I agree. Based on specs, G1217 has a lot of competitors to the Vali 2 but you may be right about Starlight being a more direct competitor.
  
 Ember and Vali 2 are different enough that I somehow justified needing both. Why I chose Vali 2 over G1217's other offerings is sort of random. I have a Wyrd to put under it? Hah. The specs are pretty satisfying as well (hungry orthos). Definitely a decent, powerful amp at a small price. Can't wait to hear it.


----------



## Tunkejazz

thujone said:


> Let me clarify, since I don't want to upset the hype train:
> 
> 1. Project Ember is the best amp purchase I've made to date; it has the best value for the price. Period. Ember has so many possible configurations and it can easily drive my HE-6 without issues.
> 
> ...


 

@Thujone of course you have had your own experience and it is well appreciated here!
 I just wanted to clarify that tube rolling will empty your pockets no matter what  (I wasn't referring to the price of the amp!).
  
 I guess the Vali 2 is a great sounding amp (I haven't had the chance to test it), but the concept of having a single tube amp at a very competitive price was already available for a long time in the G1217 listings. When Schiit makes a new amp, the hype goes beyond reality. I had the Vali 1, and I liked it but it had its flaws too. I much prefer the Ember and the Polaris.
  
 I guess the Vali 2 has better isolation against electromagnetic interference as it has a closed chassis compared to the G1217 options. I have to admit that I don't use IEMs.
  
 I totally agree with point 4


----------



## Thujone

Hah! I can definitely agree that it's unfortunate that G1217 isn't getting as much hype as the Vali 2 when they've had the single tube hybrid concept for a looooong time. Plenty more options to suit your needs too. Seriously. Again though, the Vali 2 just appears (spec wise and price wise) to suit my needs a _little _more than another G1217 offering. At this price, it competes with Starlight the most but Starlight may struggle a _little _bit more with hungry orthos. The price and specs of Vali 2 vs. Starlight are very very close though!


----------



## richard51

i was tempted by shiit product in the beginning.... i listen to one... i thanks the guardian angel that drive me to garage 1217 ....After 2 years... I love it more...marketing genius is good but i prefer modest product with great return ... The ember is this one ... i thanks god and garage 1217...


----------



## iancraig10

I think people are forgetting here that Jeremy is not really like a business. He's a one man band and an enthusiast. That's why his customer service is so good. You're getting to the boss straight away!!

His amps are hand made by him. Unless you build the kit. He's run off his feet 

The Schiit hype is caused by the users because perhaps more have been sold? Just because there's less hype doesn't necessarily mean anything is 'better' than something else, but comparing two amps on here Could easily cause problems between two sides.


----------



## DecentLevi

IMO, product comparisons are healthy for this industry because any any improvements of one product over another can cause the other vendor to make improvements - accelerating innovation. And if my assumptions are correct comparisons are something the vendors come to expect.
  
 The above could also be said for negative reviews on a product


----------



## iancraig10

Yes. But it does depend on the quality of reviews as well rather than anecdotal comments.

I'm sure that many of us have bought products that we might have regretted later, due to reviews.


----------



## ericr

thujone said:


> ...
> 
> 2. Ember does have its faults. No, it isn't the quietest amp with IEMs and other sensitive headphones. Even Polaris apparently has issues here, and it doesn't have the tube distortion to go with it.
> ...




It own a good number of IEMs from $35 Vsonic units to TOTL from 1964 Ears and found the Ember to be such a phenomenal amp with them I bought a second Ember for use at work. You have to learn which tubes have what gain and avoid high gain tubes such as the 12AX7 in favor of low gain tubes such as the 6CG7 and 6SN7. 

Also, for Ember 1 owners like myself, Jeremy will do a mod of two resistors to reduce the levels of the low gain setting. For Ember II owners it's just a simple matter of installing a resistor pack to reduce the level of the low gain setting.


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> Yes. But it does depend on the quality of reviews as well rather than anecdotal comments.
> 
> I'm sure that many of us have bought products that we might have regretted later, due to reviews.


 
 I take with a pinch of salt about 50% of what people say when it comes to reviews.
 I mean you couldn't make up some of the stuff - 'weeping with emotion after my spiritual journey', 'feeling like I was the microphone right in front of the singer's mouth' and the all time favourite 'WOW I heard sounds I've never heard before'.
 Do these people never stop and just think for a moment that maybe I wouldn't want to be stuck right in front of somebody's mouth, or that maybe the writer/composer doesn't want us to hear every tiny detail of the sound in the mix?


----------



## iancraig10

Exactly!!

I must admit, I take care with reading of reviews, but unfortunately, over the years it cost me dearly!! Once a few hundred pounds or perhaps more like thousands, go out the window, you start to hold back before jumping in? It's an expensive lesson.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Hello from another Ember new owner. I bought it from another headfier who was generous to include several tubes with it.

I've been playing with it for the last 5 days, and the only thing I can say is it exceeded my expectation. This is exactly the type of sound I wanted, and changing the sound signature with rolling tubes is fun.

I've listened to a few expensive amps like WA2 for example, that's how I decided to buy a tube amp and had the Ember in my wish list. I wanted to buy a pair of HD650 first but I couldn't miss the opportunity.

Now I have it hooked into my ODAC/O2 and enjoy it with my Fidelio X2, Denon AH-MM400, and Focal Spirit Classic. 

I'll post some first impressions on tubes in the tube rolling thread.


----------



## DavidA

bobmonkhouse said:


> Hello from another Ember new owner. I bought it from another headfier who was generous to include several tubes with it.
> 
> I've been playing with it for the last 5 days, and the only thing I can say is it exceeded my expectation. This is exactly the type of sound I wanted, and changing the sound signature with rolling tubes is fun.
> 
> ...


 
 Welcome to the Ember family


----------



## svmusa

Checking to see Fostex TH-900 headphones synergy with Ember II, given the low impedance of these phones would be great to hear back if there are any noise issues as well.
  
 I am sure some tubes will bring more noise than others, looking for some tubes folks have settled for these phones as well.


----------



## Thujone

I mentioned this a couple pages ago. I did not experience the TH-X00 out of Ember without a very noticeable noise floor. The noise is tube dependent, but most people have not experienced the Fostex TH series on Ember without noise.


----------



## iancraig10

I have the Ember I and Polaris. If I use the th900 with the Ember, I do hear the noise floor with an Orange Globe tube. The Polaris is quieter. Noise is just about there perhaps, if you hold your breath and keep very still!


----------



## Tunkejazz

iancraig10 said:


> I have the Ember I and Polaris. If I use the th900 with the Ember, I do hear the noise floor with an Orange Globe tube. The Polaris is quieter. Noise is just about there perhaps, if you hold your breath and keep very still!



Weird...my polaris is dead quiet with the d2000 which are 25ohm I believe.


----------



## svmusa

Thx Thujone and IanCraig10 for sharing your experience, seems I should expect some noise floor with TH900 given the high sensitivity and low impedance.


----------



## iancraig10

tunkejazz said:


> Weird...my polaris is dead quiet with the d2000 which are 25ohm I believe.




You have to hold your breath and don't blink! 

In fact, Polaris is very quiet. If you plug and unplug with no music, you might 'just' hear something.

I'm trying to be nit picky here, because there's bound to be a twenty year old with bat's hearing who will tell me how wrong I am. Also, old boys who tell me I'm telling porkies!! 

It's barely anything to worry about and is also linked to the sensitivity of the headphone, not just impedance, I think.

Now,don't go listening for it. It's bad for your mental health.


----------



## Tuneslover

This forum and this thread have been a haven for me, so thank you everyone for your submissions. Life has been particularly difficult over the last few months but fortunately my music, equipment and fellow soul mates (you folks) have allowed me a pleasurable escape from reality when time permits. Thanks.


----------



## connieflyer

Alot of us are suffering some way or another and I think sharing ones time helps to allivaiate the paie for a while.  Good luck and keep posting, be needed even in just ask advice.


----------



## disastermouse

What tube does the Ember II come with?


----------



## DecentLevi

ECC82

In this post I wrote about it recently


----------



## skyline315

disastermouse said:


> What tube does the Ember II come with?


 
  
 I believe this can be negotiated with Jeremy based on your headphones and preferences.  Just drop him an e-mail.


----------



## HOWIE13

skyline315 said:


> I believe this can be negotiated with Jeremy based on your headphones and preferences.  Just drop him an e-mail.


 
 Good advice from Skyline315.
 I recall when I asked, Jeremy had a number of options depending on my preferred sound. I guess it will also depend on which tubes he has available..


----------



## connieflyer

He has many tubes of all types, so just ask for what you want, within reason of course, and he should accomadate you.  Good guy to deal with.


----------



## disastermouse

connieflyer said:


> He has many tubes of all types, so just ask for what you want, within reason of course, and he should accomadate you.  Good guy to deal with.


 

 Hah! Too late. I already ordered a Project Polaris. Jeremy is amazing with email replies. It couldn't have been five minutes after I placed my order that he emailed me to tell me when he would likely be shipping it! I think we need to invent a term like 'enthusiast-preneur' for what they're doing at Garage 1217.


----------



## HOWIE13

disastermouse said:


> Hah! Too late. I already ordered a Project Polaris. Jeremy is amazing with email replies. It couldn't have been five minutes after I placed my order that he emailed me to tell me when he would likely be shipping it! I think we need to invent a term like 'enthusiast-preneur' for what they're doing at Garage 1217.


 
 ...and unlike many sellers who lose interest in you once you have purchased- it's just the opposite with Jeremy. He does everything possible to help you get the best possible sound to suit your personal tastes from your kit.


----------



## disastermouse

howie13 said:


> ...and unlike many sellers who lose interest in you once you have purchased- it's just the opposite with Jeremy. He does everything possible to help you get the best possible sound to suit your personal tastes from your kit.


 

 Awesome. He's not going to move into my house, though, is he? I mean, we've got a spare bedroom, but I gotta clear it with the girlfriend first.
  
 /kidding (of course)
  
 I really just can't wait for this amp! I haven't been this excited about gear since I got my open-box refurb HE-500 in 2012! In other news, my girlfriend saw the customer photos of the Ember II and she really perked up. I may end up with a tube amp before too long.


----------



## HOWIE13

disastermouse said:


> Awesome. He's not going to move into my house, though, is he? I mean, we've got a spare bedroom, but I gotta clear it with the girlfriend first.
> 
> /kidding (of course)
> 
> I really just can't wait for this amp! I haven't been this excited about gear since I got my open-box refurb HE-500 in 2012! In other news, my girlfriend saw the customer photos of the Ember II and she really perked up. I may end up with a tube amp before too long.


 
 Well you wouldn't be the first to own both the Polaris and Ember.


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> Well you wouldn't be the first to own both the Polaris and Ember.


 
 Yeah, tell me that


----------



## ericr

Dual Embers for the win! (work and home)


----------



## disastermouse

ericr said:


> Dual Embers for the win! (work and home)


 

 Same tubes?


----------



## iancraig10

For some reason, I have this vision of a sandwich box, being packed with food and a little compartment at the top to transfer his tube........


----------



## ericr

disastermouse said:


> Same tubes?




Yes, I'm happily settled on the WW2 era Sylvania 6SN7W black base short bottle (after a year plus of buying tubes 'til my wife's eyes would roll back in their sockets!)

Maybe some day I'll spring the $$$ for a 6SN7A or 6SN7W metal base to see if they are any better than the black base version. Or not.


----------



## Tuneslover

tuneslover said:


> I have been saving up for a Project Ember and was hoping to pull the trigger in the spring but Schiit just released the Vali2. I do realize there's a pretty big difference in power and versatility between these 2 amps but the $169 price point, I must say, has me tempted. So long as the Vali2 is able to drive my HD650's and HE500's properly this might be a good tube entry option.
> 
> Any opinions for or against? Thanks.




Well I just couldn't swallow the cost of an Ember with a few extra options plus shipping to Canada, as well as, the poor exchange rate. This thing was going to cost me just over $700 Canadian. I was (and still am) planning on buying one in the spring or early summer if my wife and I are able to get away for a vacation to western Canada by then and have it shipped to an uncle in Idaho where I can pick it up and return with it duty free.

For the time being I will be able to enjoy a decent and much more affordable tube amp, but still drooling over the Ember.


----------



## skyline315

I've been listening to the Ember with the Modi 2U.
  
 Currently have a MB Bifrost on loan, and it takes things to another level.  Nice to know that DAC upgrades are worthwhile...


----------



## richard51

tuneslover said:


> Well I just couldn't swallow the cost of an Ember with a few extra options plus shipping to Canada, as well as, the poor exchange rate. This thing was going to cost me just over $700 Canadian. I was (and still am) planning on buying one in the spring or early summer if my wife and I are able to get away for a vacation to western Canada by then and have it shipped to an uncle in Idaho where I can pick it up and return with it duty free.
> 
> For the time being I will be able to enjoy a decent and much more affordable tube amp, but still drooling over the Ember.


 

 i truly understand you.... If i was not lucky enough to buy one 2 years ago, i cannot afford one now at these price... the Ember is a marvel piece of kit and no review can do justice to an amp so flexible with a chameleon sounding tube potentials...I dont regret it one bit.. i wish you good luck for a used one....regards to you


----------



## connieflyer

I tnink what Jeremy should work on next is an adapter, that is built on a swivel, that has adapters for 6SN7', then rotate to adapter for 7193s, then rotate to 6j5's, and if there is room maybe a slot that can be filled with another adapter, when we find more combinations.  Using the hd 700's with the Ember now and  6c5's and these are very nice.  Like them on a par with the 650's, a little more resolving actually.


----------



## HOWIE13

tuneslover said:


> Well I just couldn't swallow the cost of an Ember with a few extra options plus shipping to Canada, as well as, the poor exchange rate. This thing was going to cost me just over $700 Canadian. I was (and still am) planning on buying one in the spring or early summer if my wife and I are able to get away for a vacation to western Canada by then and have it shipped to an uncle in Idaho where I can pick it up and return with it duty free.
> 
> For the time being I will be able to enjoy a decent and much more affordable tube amp, but still drooling over the Ember.


 
 I can understand the attraction of the price of the Vali 2 and it's very irritating that Schiit don't sell these in Europe yet- they can't even give us an availability date.
 However, there are cheaper and very good G1217 options which will give you much more versatility than the Vali 2 and are more 'future proof'-  eg. Starlight-  just a thought.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. HOWIE13 in Scotland,
  
 Betcha Schiit doesn't have a Vali 2, 230 Volt power supply, yet.  Not to mention a whole range of other issues they'll have to address as they attempt going Global.  
  
 I'd imagine that everyone's Local manufacturers would cringe at the though of competing against (Schiit) a low cost range of product offerings, so expect Import Duties aplenty.
  
 Speaking of Schiit; they appear to be paying Garage1217 a huge compliment by imitating the Dual-Triode Tube Rolling design concept.   Triode Rolling is where "all" the Action is in this Headphone Hobby!  I wonder if its gonna migrate over to the Big Two Channel Systems?  Seems this new format has gone Viral, Schiit has a viable Competitor in Garage1217 ( maybe for the first time ) or second if we count JDS and the ODac,
 [size=x-small]the excitement is [/size]contagious, especially considering that Tubes range in cost from under $20 to $100 (or so). 
  
 Somehow our little hobby seems to be mutating again but it's not coming from Asian outfits with $3,000 to $10,000 offerings. We seemed to have squirted away from under their thumbs!
  
 Lucky us.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Mr. HOWIE13 in Scotland,
> 
> Betcha Schiit doesn't have a Vali 2, 230 Volt power supply, yet.  Not to mention a whole range of other issues they'll have to address as they attempt going Global.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Tony
 I couldn't agree more it really has been a hectic and exciting year on the G1217 tube rolling front. I feel it's been quite a learning experience from an historical perspective too. Nearly every morning I open my PC in anticipation of new ideas and tubes to try- I don't think it takes me away from the music though-actually it immerses me even more- much to my wife's chagrin.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.HOWIE13,
  
 Quite right, kinda feels like the excitement only could've happened because of the Internet and a site like this ( Head-Fi ) where folks can instantly learn from others, advance, share, advance again.   It's like one big University research laboratory with everyone working on similar projects ( my beginnings back in the early Post WW11 years at GMCorp.).  
  
 We seem to be on one hell-of-a learning curve and we don't need to give Cavalli $3,500 to participate! 
  
 Hmm,  what will the end of 2016 have us discussing as the relevant advances learned in 2016?: I imagine 3 or 4 important things if I project from this last year where we finally solved the DAC questions, Audiologist's hearing tests and personal hearing calibration for our gear, the greatness of Sennheiser transducers ( from the $300 to $1,500 level ) and wonderful Amplification designs from Garage1217.  
  
 Well, thats my list.  Others got to my point a year earlier than I did but not much earlier than that was possible without spending a couple hundred thousand dollars on a nice dcs or MSB set of gear. 
  
 The music reproduction future looks brighter than ever.
  
 Bring it on,
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## disastermouse

howie13 said:


> Hi Tony
> I couldn't agree more it really has been a hectic and exciting year on the G1217 tube rolling front. I feel it's been quite a learning experience from an historical perspective too. Nearly every morning I open my PC in anticipation of new ideas and tubes to try- I don't think it takes me away from the music though-actually it immerses me even more- much to my wife's chagrin.



See?! This is the madness I'm trying to hold off for just a little longer before I get into tube amps.


----------



## HOWIE13

disastermouse said:


> See?! This is the madness I'm trying to hold off for just a little longer before I get into tube amps.


 
 ...but it doesn't seem like madness when you do it.


----------



## elvergun

I just received a Project Ember (version I, with Supercharger module) and all I can say is WOW!!
  
  
 It's not a perfect amp:  It looks like a toy (kinda, but in a good way) and the volume pot produces channel imbalance at low volume, but man, does it produce some sweet, sweet sounds.
  
 It paired extremely well with my T5p and my THX00.  I will spend some time today using it with my HD800 -- I expect this to also be a good match.
  
 This is the best under $500 amp I've heard.  This is also one of the best under $1000 amp I've been able to get my hands on.  I'm really, really impressed.  Now I just have to get a Valhalla 2 and a Crack to put them head-to-head with the Ember...just to find out which one is the best entry level amp.


----------



## richard51

elvergun said:


> I just received a Project Ember (version I, with Supercharger module) and all I can say is WOW!!
> 
> 
> It's not a perfect amp:  It looks like a toy (kinda, but in a good way) and the volume pot produces channel imbalance at low volume, but man, does the it produce some sweet, sweet sounds.
> ...


 

 Wait now  to ascend the tube escalator to heaven.... for me there has been 3 revolutions each time better than the other: bugle boy 12au7, after that 6sn7 tube was better, after that 7193 dual one+ adapter better, and next i wait for my 6J5 adapter...Hence to know the Ember truly it is necessary to try many tubes...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 p.s. By the way what are these under 1000 dollars amp did you listening to ? it will be interesting to have some impression of the Ember versus....


----------



## elvergun

richard51 said:


> Wait now  to ascend the tube escalator to heaven.... for me there has been 3 revolutions each time better than the other: bugle boy 12au7, after that 6sn7 tube was better, after that 7193 dual one+ adapter better, and next i wait for my 6J5 adapter...Hence to know the Ember truly it is necessary to try many tubes...


 
  

 Crap...I forgot about tube rolling.  Here we go...

 I'm using an Amperex Buggle Boy 6dj8, which I could not let go when I sold my Lyr.   The Ember came with the 6sn7 adapter, so what 6sn7 tubes should I be looking out for?   What differences will I hear?


----------



## connieflyer

I still like the KenRad vt 231 for the mids and bass and the Sylvania vt231. Some of the others are fine but I find when I use the 6sn7's these are the ones I use the most. Dual 6j5's, 6l5's get most of my time now


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> I still like the KenRad vt 231 for the mids and bass and the Sylvania vt231. Some of the others are fine but I find when I use the 6sn7's these are the ones I use the most. Dual 6j5's, 6l5's get most of my time now


 

 i  like any good tube with the ember...all sound interesting and good... But i have each time upgrade for the better...and dont look back....In the beginning i think that it will be not easy to differenciate my preference between  tubes but at each time i listen to an upgrade tube  that was evident to my ears that i prefere the new one... i only had difficult choice between same tube families... between 12au7 or other tubes in the same family.... between 6sn7 that was easy(only 3 species to try)... and the 7193 family was so good i never came back...Now my hope are for some 6j5  ( i had already bought the metal can  westinghouse 6j5) wait for my adapter...


----------



## HOWIE13

elvergun said:


> I just received a Project Ember (version I, with Supercharger module) and all I can say is WOW!!
> 
> 
> It's not a perfect amp:  It looks like a toy (kinda, but in a good way) and the volume pot produces channel imbalance at low volume, but man, does the it produce some sweet, sweet sounds.
> ...


 
 The channel imbalance below 9 o'clock on the vol pot is normal. Just invoke the input attenuation module to give yourself more rotation for the volume knob to get above the 9 o'clock position.
 What richard51 says about the vast possibilities for tube rolling the Ember is a very important advantage of this amplifier and puts it ahead of it's competitors in allowing you to tailor the sound to the way you like it.
 I don't know about tube rolling the Crack. I read it's very good for high impedance cans but not so good for lower impedance ones.  Valhalla's tube rolling ability is very limited in comparison to Ember. 
 I also would have liked to buy a Valhalla but Schiit UK are unable at present to provide it (or the Vali 2), which I find somewhat disquieting.


----------



## richard51

I dont have any doubt that this unique  chamaleonesque potentiality of the Ember with so vast tube rolling possibilities is the ONLY reason why NO review has been rightly totally right on the point with his price/quality ratio.... how describe an amplifier that is so different sounding between the standard tube and for me the 6sn7 and the 7193 and now the 6j5 family?
  
 the reviewing process does not do justice to the Ember, because how is it possible to do that? i had the Ember for 2 years now and i dont know how it will sound next month ....except if i dont play with his possibilities...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 p.s. i know that i will try some other amplifier, probably microzotl, ss vintage sansui au 7700 is "en route"now , but how will it be possible for me to depart with the Ember ? no tube rolling experimentation? No i will have 3 amps for sure and the Ember will always be one of them ...Microzotl is entirely tube, Ember an hybrid, sansui a good ss one ....


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> i  like any good tube with the ember...all sound interesting and good... But i have each time upgrade for the better...and dont look back....In the beginning i think that it will be not easy to differenciate my preference between  tubes but at each time i listen to an upgrade tube  that was evident to my ears that i prefere the new one... i only had difficult choice between same tube families... between 12au7 or other tubes in the same family.... between 6sn7 that was easy(only 3 species to try)... and the 7193 family was so good i never came back...Now my hope are for some 6j5  ( i had already bought the metal can  westinghouse 6j5) wait for my adapter...


 
 That's interesting you are going to try a metal type. I have used an RCA metal 6J5 and it sounds great- BUT what I noticed is that it takes several minutes to warm up to produce the typical open and articulate 6J5 sound. Most of my glass tubes, of whatever type, including 6J5's only need 2-3 minutes- but these metal ones improve over about 20-30 minutes. I'll be most interested to learn how you find them.


----------



## richard51

howie13 said:


> That's interesting you are going to try a metal type. I have used an RCA metal 6J5 and it sounds great- BUT what I noticed is that it takes several minutes to warm up to produce the typical open and articulate 6J5 sound. Most of my glass tubes, of whatever type, including 6J5's only need 2-3 minutes- but these metal ones improve over about 20-30 minutes. I'll be most interested to learn how you find them.


 

 yes i cannot wait....the adapter is on his way...but if the metal can warm up slowly the risk of microphony is null ... i had read that ...is it true?


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> I dont have any doubt that this unique  chamaleonesque potentiality of the Ember with so vast tube rolling possibilities is the ONLY reason why NO review has been rightly totally right on the point with his price/quality ratio.... how describe an amplifier that is so different sounding between the standard tube and for me the 6sn7 and the 7193 and now the 6j5 family?
> 
> the reviewing process does not do justice to the Ember, because how is it possible to do that? i had the Ember for 2 years now and i dont know how it will sound next month ....except if i dont play with his possibilities...
> 
> ...


 
 I must confess I was not taken by the stock JJ that came with my Ember. It works, of course, but didn't demonstrate the Ember's true potential to me. On the other hand many do like it.


----------



## richard51

it is the reason why it was so evident an upgrade with my bugle boy 12au7, and after that the others (notably the 6sn7 and the 7193 )


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> yes i cannot wait....the adapter is on his way...but if the metal can warm up slowly the risk of microphony is null ... i had read that ...is it true?


 
 Certainly my RCA's are totally free of microphony.


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> it is the reason why it was so evident an upgrade with my bugle boy 12au7, and after that the others (notably the 6sn7 and the 7193 )


 
 Well once you start rolling....you know the rest... LOL
  
 PS. Actually part of the reason we roll so much is it's so easy with Ember as everything is automated to ensure the correct heater voltage and precise bias, even to the extent of self adjusting its bias as the tube warms up. I think that must help make the sound so satisfying.


----------



## richard51

by the way i listen with the He 400 hifiman +sorbothane mod....and this sorb mod is the most extraordinary upgrade....more extraordinary than the amplifier i think....for my he 400 (metal painted cups resonate so badly ) the sorb made miracle and i want to buy some totl headphone to compare in the year to come...Dharma, or senn hd 800 or i dont know maybe  some unknown phone right now it is impossible to decide...


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> by the way i listen with the He 400 hifiman +sorbothane mod....and this sorb mod is the most extraordinary upgrade....more extraordinary than the amplifier i think....for my he 400 (metal painted cups resonate so badly ) the sorb made miracle and i want to buy some totl headphone to compare in the year to come...Dharma, or senn hd 800 or i dont know maybe  some unknown phone right now it is impossible to decide...


 
 I also have the HE400. I haven't heard it resonate yet. Does yours resonate with all frequencies or mainly the extremes?


----------



## richard51

howie13 said:


> I also have the HE400. I haven't heard it resonate yet. Does yours resonate with all frequencies or mainly the extremes?


 

 all headphone cups resonate to some many frequencies...and the he 400 cups are a metal drum.... Before i put the sorb mod i was not totally in love with  my he 400... the change with the  different amp i try  was a betterment up to the Ember ( the right choice).... But it was a true revolution for me when i was putting the sorb on the exterior cup.... the 3 d sound, the imaging, the frequencies are more clear all the way up, and the musical rendering of the instrument timbre way better....before sorb mod, the desktop speaker Monsoon Mm 2000 was better listening than my he 400 ( it a a miraculous hybrid planar speakers system  at low cost very resolving probably surpass only by the maggies ) , the Stax basic system better also than the he 400.... Now the Ember+ the he 400 +sorb mod beats the 2 in the naturalness of the sound and 3d presence of the real timbre of instrument ... it is my experience....


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> all headphone cups resonate to some many frequencies...and the he 400 cups are a metal drum.... Before i put the sorb mod i was not totally in love with  my he 400... the change with the  different amp i try  was a betterment up to the Ember ( the right choice).... But it was a true revolution for me when i was putting the sorb on the exterior cup.... the 3 d sound, the imaging, the frequencies are more clear all the way up, and the musical rendering of the instrument timbre way better....before sorb mod, the desktop speaker Monsoon Mm 2000 was better listening than my he 400 ( it a a miraculous hybrid planar speakers system  at low cost very resolving probably surpass only by the maggies ) , the Stax basic system better also than the he 400.... Now the Ember+ the he 400 +sorb mod beats the 2 in the naturalness of the sound and 3d presence of the real timbre of instrument ... it is my experience....


 
 That's something I would like to consider. Do you have a link to the mod? I am hopeless technically, by the way.


----------



## richard51

howie13 said:


> That's something I would like to consider. Do you have a link to the mod? I am hopeless technically, by the way.


 
 You must read this thread carefully....all the posts...Mine for the he 400 are there with some photos ... some try the sorb mod at the interior of the cup...I prefer at the exterior it is more easy and if you dont like it easy to come back to the beginning ( i dont give a damn for the appearance look )...i give all infos there ... very important thing to note: the thickness , the duro, the form of the sorb play a role in the process and now i had discover that the gluing process takes for me 2 month for a complete adherence ....read all the thread please not only my own posts...by the way this mod. is the most simple to made...it is only important to rightly choosing the sorb and place it in the right manner...
  
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/744839/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-sorbothane-and-other-materials
  
 p.s. all headphone are prone to some destructive sound resonance vibration...For example the blutak mod, the anaxilus mod, are mod to beat this vibration that affect some frequencies badly respectively for the he 6 and senn hd 800... the sorb mod i try for the he 400...the sorbothane have some properties to damp vibrations and transforming them into heat...rightly apply it is  miraculous for me more than anything else for the he 400...no amp can do that...
  
 I apologize for writing all that about he 400 on the Ember thread but...


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> You must read this thread carefully....all the posts...Mine for the he 400 are there with some photos ... some try the sorb mod at the interior of the cup...I prefer at the exterior it is more easy and if you dont like it easy to come back to the beginning ( i dont give a damn for the appearance look )...i give all infos there ... very important thing to note: the thickness , the duro, the form of the sorb play a role in the process and now i had discover that the gluing process takes for me 2 month for a complete adherence ....read all the thread please not only my own posts...by the way this mod. is the most simple to made...it is only important to rightly choosing the sorb and place it in the right manner...
> 
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/744839/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-sorbothane-and-other-materials
> ...


 
 That's so helpful, thanks. I had no idea there was so much written about this mod.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

To those rolling dual 6L5 tubes, how they compare to 6NS7? Are they better in general, or it's the usual tube dependent?
  
  
 Ooops!... this post was intended for the tube rolling thread!


----------



## Thujone

elvergun said:


> It paired extremely well with my T5p and my THX00.  I will spend some time today using it with my HD800 -- I expect this to also be a good match.


 
  
 I am using the Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 and I have a really loud noise floor with the TH-X00?


----------



## iancraig10

I found the same when my Bugle Boy got a bit tired. I put in a Jan Philips temporarily, but actually, I like it. It's quiet and absolutely no ringing when I tap it to check.


----------



## connieflyer

bobmonkhouse said:


> To those rolling dual 6L5 tubes, how they compare to 6NS7? Are they better in general, or it's the usual tube dependent?
> 
> 
> Ooops!... this post was intended for the tube rolling thread!


 

 I am using National Union and I think Howie13 is also.  These are a cut above the 6sn7's, and I do have some good 6sn7/s Kenrad vt 231, sylvania vt 231 and a TungsolGT from 1949 that is also very good.and others, but prefer the openness and 3D effect the the 6L5's have.  I have tried the 6j5.s and 6c5's, the C as are nice but not as open and the top end is not as prevalent.  If you have bright cans, these work great. Have the Hytrons but do not care for these.  I also have a pair of Sylvania straight glass, tubes which are nice but no where as good as the 6L5g's.  The only 6j5's I have that are clear winner's are the Visseaux 6j5's and these are probably better, depending on the music you are listening to, to the 6L5's.  Expensive and getting hard to find, but worth it in my opinion. The 6L5's I have two pair and both are National Union, both sound the same.  Have not tried a different manufacture for these.  Am using both HD 650's and HD 700's with the Ember.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I am using National Union and I think Howie13 is also.  These are a cut above the 6sn7's, and I do have some good 6sn7/s Kenrad vt 231, sylvania vt 231 and a TungsolGT from 1949 that is also very good.and others, but prefer the openness and 3D effect the the 6L5's have.  I have tried the 6j5.s and 6c5's, the C as are nice but not as open and the top end is not as prevalent.  If you have bright cans, these work great. Have the Hytrons but do not care for these.  I also have a pair of Sylvania straight glass, tubes which are nice but no where as good as the 6L5g's.  The only 6j5's I have that are clear winner's are the Visseaux 6j5's and these are probably better, depending on the music you are listening to, to the 6L5's.  Expensive and getting hard to find, but worth it in my opinion. The 6L5's I have two pair and both are National Union, both sound the same.  Have not tried a different manufacture for these.  Am using both HD 650's and HD 700's with the Ember.


 
 Couldn't have put it better myself.
 I've got a couple of RCA 6L5's on the way to compare to the very excellent NU's.


----------



## HOWIE13

thujone said:


> I am using the Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 and I have a really loud noise floor with the TH-X00?


 
 You may also find using a lower gain tube like a 12AU7 or 6N6P reduces the hiss. It may be the characteristic of the tube or could be related to the low impedance of the can, in either case using a different and lower gain tube may help.


----------



## disastermouse

richard51 said:


> by the way i listen with the He 400 hifiman +sorbothane mod....and this sorb mod is the most extraordinary upgrade....more extraordinary than the amplifier i think....for my he 400 (metal painted cups resonate so badly ) the sorb made miracle and i want to buy some totl headphone to compare in the year to come...Dharma, or senn hd 800 or i dont know maybe  some unknown phone right now it is impossible to decide...



Does the sorbothane mod work for HE-500? What are the details of the mod? Do you have a link to a video or instructions?


----------



## richard51

disastermouse said:


> Does the sorbothane mod work for HE-500? What are the details of the mod? Do you have a link to a video or instructions?


 

 i am pretty sure that will work for the he 500 because it is the same metal painted cups...The sorb. mod is easy and reversible but you must carefully read all the information there :
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/744839/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-sorbothane-and-other-materials
  
  






 
  
 it is very easy to make this mod BUT you must experiment with the form, duro, and the right thickness... I had made my own experience with photos there...AND do no expect that all  goods will be there in the minute after the mod...It take 2 month for me to had the transformation completes because the bonding of the gluing process take  time... It will be better in the beginning but for me it was more better now after 2 months...


----------



## disastermouse

richard51 said:


> i am pretty sure that will work for the he 500 because it is the same metal painted cups...The sorb. mod is easy and reversible but you must carefully read all the information there :
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/744839/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-sorbothane-and-other-materials



I skimmed the thread. Pages and pages of stuff about Stax and other electrostatic headphones. Do you have photos of where you placed the sorbothane? It would help greatly!


----------



## richard51

disastermouse said:


> I skimmed the thread. Pages and pages of stuff about Stax and other electrostatic headphones. Do you have photos of where you placed the sorbothane? It would help greatly!


 

 yes  post 289....
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/744839/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-sorbothane-and-other-materials/285


----------



## tonykaz

Resonance issues,
  
 Adding dampening or adding mass lowers the resonance.  I suppose Sorbathane does both.  
  
 The reciprocal of reducing mass can raise resonance out of the audible range.  
  
 I don't quite know what design elements Sennheiser use in their HD580,600,650,700,800 headphones but I've never sensed their housings to resonate.  I've used dampening to tune the Sennheiser RS120s into very nice musical performers.
  
 The Auto Industry folks carefully build to eliminate NVH ( noise-vibration-harshness ).  NVH is an entire design department in everyone's Car design Studio's.  Adding Mass or dampening is the standard "Quick Fix" for a problem design.  
  
 All of the Audiophile aspiring headphones I've encountered seem to lack any NVH issues.  I listen for the transducer's singing voice, they all seem to have one, the Sennheisers have the nicest I've yet discovered, mine can reproduce from ultra low frequencies to way outa my hearing range  with amazing capability and authority, they don't have the "Slam" of my local Detroit Symphony Orchestra but they come dam close.
  
 Mr.richard51, you seem to be a budding NVH sort of person.  I might suggest rebuilding the entire headphone using a common bathtub silicone caulk as a thin binding gasket between all the components which would in effect give all the parts the mass of the entire housing and thus effectively add mass to the system ( and dampening ).  Looking at your snaps of your work is very much like what you'd see if you visited the NVH group at the GM Technical Center.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## tommo21

I've had a change of DAC today with the Ember II. I've used Modi 2(non Uber) because of the feature to run UAC1 at work. I got me a Henry Audio 128 MKII, and this was a significant upgrade to the Modi 2. Of course it cost a bit more than the Modi, but only $249 including shipping.
  
 This dac has very wonderful and airy soundstage with lots more space and width. It sound clearer and very neutral. It's also more dynamic than the Modi 2. I was very happy with the Modi, but I can't go back now.
  
 The DAC has plenty of top reviews. Remeber this is a USB-Dac only. I'm using it with the WYRD.
  
 Check it out here:http://www.henryaudio.com/
  
 I'm sorry if this might come along as an ad....it really is not, and I have no affiliation with this company other than we're from the same country.


----------



## husafreak

I just wanted to post and say thanks for an informative thread. I emailed a bit back and forth with Jeremy and ordered an Ember II and should have it in a couple of days. Jeremy recommended a 6n6p tube to get me started.
 It is funny I have been listening to HD600's through a Creek OBH-21SE for 20+ years but only seldom and as a last resort because it couldn't even begin to compete with my stereo. I just figured anyone with a good high end stereo would never listen to headphones. But then some privacy issues came up and I posted on the Steve Hoffman forums asking for advice on sealed headphones or just better headphones and man did I ever I open up a can of worms! LOL
 I guess the reason I am getting the Ember II is because folks thought my HD600's should sound good and maybe it was my amp letting me down.
 It went something like this: My HD600's suck/Steve Hoffman forum/leads me to Innerfidelity forum/get a pair of NAD HP50's/nice but should be better/maybe amp sucks?/Head-Fi forum/Uh Oh, Creek not popular/tube headphone amps?/what the heck?/Tube rolling? What is that?/Sounds fun!/find a versatile tube amp that can power my NAD's and Senn's and any other cans I decide to get, and maybe roll some tubes!/Ember II/when is Can Jam?
 I'll let you know how it all turns out but this Head-Fi world is much bigger than I ever imagined. I can't wait to hear it!


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.husafreak,
  
 The Sennheisers will be wonderful.  
  
 Early last year I experienced the same sorts of issues you describe. 
  
 Out of desperation, I had an Ear Examination which revealed a large portion of my difficulties.  
  
 Subsequently, I can report that Equalizing to the hearing curves of your personal Ear mechanisms is Legit and well worthwhile.
  
 My system Music Bloomed from that point onward.  I've learned that even modestly expensive DACs & Amps & Headphones can build a superb music reproduction system.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## HOWIE13

@husafreak
  
 Welcome!
 My experience is similar to yours. For many years I enjoyed music listening with large room speakers, I thought nothing could be better.
 Moving to an apartment meant I couldn't listen to music at the full volume I like and I turned to headphones.
 I couldn't go back now, I love the sound from cans.
 You have also made excellent choices of equipment.


----------



## husafreak

I am looking forward to getting home tonight and playing with my Ember II. I have been looking at the manual. Is there somewhere good to read about the various user adjustable settings and what they do? Of course I will be able to make changes and find the settings I like without really understanding what I am doing but it would be nice to really understand what is going on. First is inlet gain, that has something to do with how high the output of my preamp is. My preamp outputs a fixed volume, I mean turning the preamp volume does not affect the volume of the headphones. Only the Ember volume will. Second is the Input cap bypass. The picture in the manual is a bit confusing to me here. I am guessing TC is through the cap and BP-C is bypassing the cap. Is the cap only in the circuit to control noise (scratchy noise from DC) when changing volume? And so better to be out of the circuit when not changing volume? Or does it have other effects on the sound. Finally the Output resistance is what I really don't understand.I don't get the synergy between headphone impedance and sensitivity and the Ember's output resistance. I have Sennheiser HD600's with moderately high impedance (300) and NAD HP50's with low impedance (32) I don't know their sensitivities but I think the HP50's are high. So I am guessing that they will not be happy with the same settings but I don't know yet. Anyway, just trying to get a handle on all this and wondering where to start.


----------



## husafreak

I found the sensitivity figures and luckily they are close, 97 for the HD600's and 100 for the HP-50's.


----------



## skyline315

husafreak said:


> I found the sensitivity figures and luckily they are close, 97 for the HD600's and 100 for the HP-50's.


 
  
 You can check out the Diyah boards for a ton of Ember discussion.  I'm sure someone there has your headphones and can offer their preferred settings.
  
 If you go in blind, I'd start with high gain / low impedence and work from there.  Jump back and forth between high and low gain first.  Once you settle on the one you like best, you can change the impedence settings one at a time and see what it does to the sound.


----------



## husafreak

Where/what are the Diyah boards?


----------



## skyline315

husafreak said:


> Where/what are the Diyah boards?


 
  
 You can Google it.  Jeremy from Garage1217 posts there as does Solderdude, who designed all of the Garage products.


----------



## husafreak

Found it thanks!


----------



## iancraig10

Even better .... Join us!! 

http://diyah.boards.net

Small, but perfectly formed. 

Ian. (Rabbit)


----------



## connieflyer

I have a pair of Senn700's, a pair of Senn650's and just traded a 650 for thr hp 50 and it has no problem being driven by the Ember.  Sound a little warmer than either of the Senn's but to be expected, nice sound for closed phones.


----------



## DecentLevi

So you got the Viso HP50? I recall this can was designed for a neutral, lifelike sound with good stage. How would you describe the sound overall? You meant it's bassier than the 650? Thanks


----------



## connieflyer

Not so much bass heavy, just a touch more warmth, nice even sound top to bottom, soundstage is not as wide as 650,700 but they are very good at isolation from external noise, sound. Now the wife can sneak up behind me, but it's worth it.  Clarity is good as well, listening to two steps from hell and they are sounding very good.


----------



## husafreak

I am having more fun listening to the HP50's than my HD600's. I got them because I wanted closed back cans to compliment my HD600's. They sound very nice. That is all I will say for now. I just unwrapped my Ember but it will be a few days until I can listen to it. With that amp I expect to be able to make a valid comparison. The HD600's just don't work well with the Creek OBH21 I have. I find the HP50's do a good job at isolation in home but I took them on a plane and they let too much low rumble through to be enjoyable at reasonable volumes. I went back to my Klipsch IEM's after a few songs, much better isolation. I think I have the X-10's.


----------



## disastermouse

husafreak said:


> I am having more fun listening to the HP50's than my HD600's. I got them because I wanted closed back cans to compliment my HD600's. They sound very nice. That is all I will say for now. I just unwrapped my Ember but it will be a few days until I can listen to it. With that amp I expect to be able to make a valid comparison. The HD600's just don't work well with the Creek OBH21 I have. I find the HP50's do a good job at isolation in home but I took them on a plane and they let too much low rumble through to be enjoyable at reasonable volumes. I went back to my Klipsch IEM's after a few songs, much better isolation. I think I have the X-10's.



X10 are awesome. I had some but lost them at the gym. Still, such clear IEMs and so comfortable!


----------



## husafreak

Yeah right! I like them so much I got my kids each a pair for Christmas 2014. Only problem with them is any movement at all and the cables transmit the equivalent of a thunderstorm into my ears... I wonder if all IEM's do that?
 Oh I did join the Diyah forum. Looking forward to chatting it up a bit and hopefully getting answers to the questions I posted. Thanks for the invite.


----------



## husafreak

Having a good listen with my new Ember II. I have them on Low Input Gain (W/AM) and caps bypassed (BP-C) and switching back and forth between Low R with my NAD HP50's and High R with my HD600's. I am finding the HP50's preferable for most rock and heavier music and the HD600's better suited to classical or jazz or lighter sounding recordings. And it is pretty hard to choose a favorite with the in between stuff, just a different presentation. The HD600's can sound really spacious and beautiful, more delicate and more detailed. But the NAD's have a denser more direct and powerful sound for heavy music with a lot of impact and drive. Better bass and drums for the 4 piece rock stuff for sure. I listened to te new Cutch CD, 10cc Original Soundrack LP, Symphony X Underworld LP, and Melody Gardot The Absence. I didn't change tubes. I think Jeremy gave me a 6N6P which i am using but I cant read anything on that tube but the RCA logo. I have another Chinese tube that came with the amp but it has no name, just 6H6n and 1 "pentagon" 77. I am guessing that is the stock tube if no other is specified.
 Using the fixed out from my preamp the volume knob with CD's i am at 8-10 o'clock and with vinyl i am at 11-2 depending on the head phones. Changing to high gain Input (WO/AM) didn't help much with changing the required volume settings, not a big difference, if that is what it is for.
 High R and Low R are very useful. Luckily easy and quick to change as well. High R really fleshes out the HD600's, without it the sound is too thin and bright for my taste. Meanwhile Low R brightens the HP50's and makes them sound more detailed.
 I have no idea what bypassing the caps does to the sound. I tried it at the beginning and since I am not hearing any static when changing the volume I left it set that way. What the heck, cleaner signal path.
 I don't hear any noise from the tube. I can tap it and I don't hear anything.
 It is much better than my Creek OBH-21SE which I thought for many years was a good headphone amp (while avoiding listening to it!). The HP50's sound just OK through the Creek but slightly Lo-Fi. The HP600's just sound bad through the Creek. In a comical way now that I compare to the ember. Not musical at all. Just brittle sounding and the music isn't cohesive. The different instruments don't jell. But with the Ember boy do they ever! Very involving and addictive.


----------



## iancraig10

I'm glad that you like the Ember. You have a good grasp of its variations as well. I've always been curious about the hp50.

Bypassing the caps on mine introduces noise on the vol por. Mine is a proto though, and I think Frans might have done something electronically with the later ones to cut this noise.

Some say that they can hear a difference.


----------



## Solrighal

iancraig10 said:


> I'm glad that you like the Ember. You have a good grasp of its variations as well. I've always been curious about the hp50.
> 
> Bypassing the caps on mine introduces noise on the vol por. Mine is a proto though, and I think Frans might have done something electronically with the later ones to cut this noise.
> 
> Some say that they can hear a difference.


 
  
 There's no noise on the MkII with the caps by-passed. I hear the sound as being slightly more dynamic & open with the caps by-passed but it's tube dependent and not a night & day change.


----------



## iancraig10

On the Mk I, I just get pot noise coming through when I move the vol pot, but other than that, it's fine. As long as once the volume is set and it's left, it's ok.

I think mine is a proto though.


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> On the Mk I, I just get pot noise coming through when I move the vol pot, but other than that, it's fine. As long as once the volume is set and it's left, it's ok.
> 
> I think mine is a proto though.


 
 On my Ember 2 pot noise seems more or less dependent on the amplification of the tube. Anything above around 50 mu usually causes some degree of noise. For 6DJ8, 12AU7, 6N6P and other low to medium gain tubes I hear no noise. For 12AT7's it's varies with the tube and with 12AX7 tubes there is always noise.
 I agree, bypassing the IC's seems to give a marginally clearer more dynamic sound, but I need to concentrate to hear the difference, on casual listening I wouldn't notice a difference.
 Anyway a bit of noise when setting the volume doesn't bother me in the least so I leave the IC's bypassed.


----------



## skyline315

iancraig10 said:


> On the Mk I, I just get pot noise coming through when I move the vol pot, but other than that, it's fine. As long as once the volume is set and it's left, it's ok.
> 
> I think mine is a proto though.


 
 It's been mostly eliminated on v2, though not entirely.  If you have sensitive headphone and you really listen when the music is paused you can hear the scratching.
  
 But, practically speaking, it's a non-issue now.


----------



## iancraig10

howie13 said:


> On my Ember 2 pot noise seems more or less dependent on the amplification of the tube. Anything above around 50 mu causes some degree of noise. For 6DJ8, 12AU7, 6N6P and other low to medium gain tubes I hear no noise. For 12AT7's it's varies with the tube and with 12AX7 tubes there is always noise.
> I agree, bypassing the IC's seems to give a marginally clearer more dynamic sound, but I need to concentrate to hear the difference, on casual listening I wouldn't notice a difference.
> Anyway a bit of noise when setting the volume doesn't bother me in the least so I leave the IC's bypassed.




I agree that it's a non-issue really. It doesn't bother me either because it's such a nice sounding amp. 

I had a tube start to ring like a bell a couple of weeks ago. I hadn't noticed until I was dusting with headphones on and I only had to touch the chassis and off it went. Changed the tube to a plain old Jan Philips. Still sounds good and now, not microphonic in the slightest.

The wonders of tube amps eh?


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> I agree that it's a non-issue really. It doesn't bother me either because it's such a nice sounding amp.
> 
> I had a tube start to ring like a bell a couple of weeks ago. I hadn't noticed until I was dusting with headphones on and I only had to touch the chassis and off it went. Changed the tube to a plain old Jan Philips. Still sounds good and now, not microphonic in the slightest.
> 
> The wonders of tube amps eh?


 
 Funny that because some of the best sounding tubes I use are also the most microphonic. I guess we should stop touching and fiddling with our amps while we listen.


----------



## iancraig10

Yes, I agree. Mine was originally quiet but it was also doing some rustling sounds on the audio, so I had to bin it. And it was an Orange Globe as well.

Jan Phips aren't too bad and cheap as chips. (Although fish and chips ain't so cheap nowadays!!!) 

Now people in the USA will wonder why I think elecyronic chips are expensive.......


----------



## Solrighal




----------



## husafreak

Which Jan Phips tube are you using?


----------



## Tunkejazz

I have been listening to the Visseaux 6J5 for a couple of days now, with different music styles.
  
 I am terrible with audio descriptions/evaluations, so I will be brief. Of the few tubes that I have tested on my Ember II, 4 of them have made me think "well this is something special". Normally differences between tubes within the same family have been rather subtle IMHO (with a few exceptions), and somewhat more obvious when changing to a different tube family. But those subtle differences are precisely what makes me come back to certain tubes and not to others! Anyway here it goes, please don't lynch the messenger!
  
 I think my preferred tubes at the moment are: Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad boy" (1952, triple hole mica), the Reflektor 6N23P SW 1974, a Phillips Miniwatt E88CC SQ and...above them the Visseaux 6J5. I have tried to realize what is that thing that makes them special and it remains elusive to grasp.
  
 In a way it's a tube that reminds me the most the sound of the Polaris with a much larger soundstage. Both high and low frequencies extend very well, actually one of the best bass I have heard in tubes: not too much, definitely not too little, very articulate and hard-hitting. The extension in the upper end is quite nice because it extends quite high but I cannot notice any frequency sticking out from the rest. I think the main difference with the Polaris that I mentioned before is in the mids. In the Polaris the mids are drier. Overall, the presentation is very punchy, the FR extends nicely and the sounds is very clear.
  
*In comparison,* the 6N23P SW is not as well defined in the lower mids and bass. *Also in comparison* the Philips E88CC SQ has a very deep-fast bass, but complex music can sound a bit congested, especially in the mids. I struggle to point out the key differences with the Sylvanias, I will need more time.
  
 I have never had so much fun listening to _Daft Punk's - Random access memories _album, and Loreena Mckennitt's - Dantes Prayer transmits a lot of emotions!
  
 Some of these tubes are not cheap, but when I look the amount of time per week that I spend hooked to my Ember, I think they are totally worth the price. Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys!


----------



## connieflyer

I would agree with you on the Visseaux tubes.  They are the best I have heard, with all the tubes I have rolled through the Ember, these are far and away the best of the bunch.  They are getting harder to find, the man I got my two pair from looks to be out.  His prices were very good, considering, that they were not cheap.  Will probably put one pair up for sale shortly, as am looking at another amp, and cash is always an issue.  Good luck with them, I swapped these and a pair of National Union 6L5's that are also quite good, but not as good as the Visseaux tubes.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

You're not making it easy! I hope my adapter and the Visseaux tubes arrive by the end of the next week (shipped right after New Year). A pair of Adzam 6L5Gs are already waiting to be tried.
  
 To keep the conversation going, my Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome has been one of my favourite tubes so far. Compared to the GE 6SN7GT, it's very musical with nice 3D sound image without lacking details; the GE is nice too but sounds dryer.
  
 Three 9-pin tubes fighting for the leadership in my Ember are GE 6DJ8 smoked glass, Amperex 7062, and Raytheon JAN 5814WA. I like these better than the Amperex PQ 6DJ8 Orange Globe. To me, three tubes sound about the same like the Orange Globe - Matsush(i)ta 12BH7A, Philips ECG 12BH7A, and a Russian 6Н6П (=6N6P) which I've bought from Jeremy.
  
 So far, the biggest disappointment have been three Sylvania green labeled tubes - 6922, Jan 6922, and 6DJ8. They don't sound bad, just didn't meet my high expectations.


----------



## nykobing

bobmonkhouse said:


> You're not making it easy! I hope my adapter and the Visseaux tubes arrive by the end of the next week (shipped right after New Year). A pair of Adzam 6L5Gs are already waiting to be tried.


 
 I am pretty sure those Adzam  6L5G's, if they are the same ones that were on ebay, are American tubes. They looked just like Ken Rad. Hope they sound good.


----------



## nwavesailor

Are some (or all) folks still needing to add a ground wire while using the Visseaux 6J5G with adapter in their Ember amp?


----------



## connieflyer

Nope, not here.  Never needed a ground wire with any tubes. Probably have a good ground through house wiring.  No noise problems either.


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> Are some (or all) folks still needing to add a ground wire while using the Visseaux 6J5G with adapter in their Ember amp?


 
 The only tubes I need a special ground wire for are some 6C5 Hytrons which are very hummy.
 Nice warm tubes mind you, so I occasionally use them for overly bright, poorly remastered vintage recordings of opera from the 40-50's where the sopranos can really have your ears hissing if you're not careful.


----------



## HOWIE13

bobmonkhouse said:


> You're not making it easy! I hope my adapter and the Visseaux tubes arrive by the end of the next week (shipped right after New Year). A pair of Adzam 6L5Gs are already waiting to be tried.
> 
> To keep the conversation going, my Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome has been one of my favourite tubes so far. Compared to the GE 6SN7GT, it's very musical with nice 3D sound image without lacking details; the GE is nice too but sounds dryer.
> 
> ...


 
 I wasn't so impressed with the GE 6SN7GTA- they are alright up to a point but I agree with you, dry is a good way to describe them. I would love to hear those Chrome Dome's but they are pretty expensive.
 As for 9 pins I keep coming back to my 6DJ8 'Bugle Boys' when I don't want a capacious sound stage, and I still like my 'Bad Boys', especially for female vocals.
 For just about everything else, Classical and Jazz, I'm using dual single triode octals.


----------



## HOWIE13

nykobing said:


> I am pretty sure those Adzam  6L5G's, if they are the same ones that were on ebay, are American tubes. They looked just like Ken Rad. Hope they sound good.


 
 It will be fascinating to hear how those Adzam 6L5's sound. My NU 6L5's are beautifully warm and sweet, but I recently tried some RCA 6L5's and was surprised at how much closer they sounded to the more vibrant 6J5's,
 There was a fair bit of rebranding of labels between the major manufacturers too.


----------



## skyline315

Don't we have a tube discussion page for this, folks?


----------



## Tunkejazz

My bad, I think I triggered it by posting my impressions in the wrong thread


----------



## skyline315

tunkejazz said:


> My bad, I think I triggered it by posting my impressions in the wrong thread


 
  
 Haha no worries.  I found my ideal tube (6N6P), so unsubscribed from the tube discussion thread.  And, then the discussion followed me here!  
  
 Anyway, to get back on track, I upgraded my DAC to the Bifrost Uber (from the Modi).  I also was able to audition the Bimby for a while.  
  
 I'm happy to say that the Ember and HE-500 combo made DAC changes quite transparent.  It's nice to know that the amp/headphone combo hasn't bottlenecked me yet.


----------



## DecentLevi

skyline315 said:


> ...
> Anyway, to get back on track, I upgraded my DAC to the Bifrost Uber (from the Modi).  I also was able to audition the Bimby for a while...


 
  
 Skyline, I've been trying to find this out for a while: what makes the Bifrost Uber better to you than the Bifrost Miltibit (Bimby)? Some say the latter is more organic, but that the former has better slam. And to keep this on topic, which pairs better with the Ember amp?


----------



## skyline315

decentlevi said:


> Skyline, I've been trying to find this out for a while: what makes the Bifrost Uber better to you than the Bifrost Miltibit (Bimby)? Some say the latter is more organic, but that the former has better slam. And to keep this on topic, which pairs better with the Ember amp?


 
 Ah, I never said the Uberfrost was better   This is the exact thing I'm grappling with, in fact.
  
 I had the Modi 2 Uber which worked wonderfully with the Ember.  I got the Bimby on loaner and instantly realized my days with the Modi were done.  More spacious and more refined.  Definitely a laid back and smooth sound which I enjoy, but it didn't sound dead, either.  Just enough energy and slam without sounding digital or fatiguing.  Very nice.
  
 BUT, the Bimby was way out of my price range, so I picked up a used Uberfrost for $250...$125 if you count my Modi sale.  Pretty awesome deal.  The Uberfrost sounds pretty fantastic.  Perhaps a bit more digital and a tad more congested than the Bimby, but it's not night and day.
  
 Now I'm in limbo, though...my audio memories of the Bimby are a couple of weeks old and I was hearing it after a year of nothing but my Modi 2, so the jump seemed very significant.  I never had a chance to directly compare the Bimby to the Uberfrost, though.  How much better is it?  $280 better?  And, just to make my life harder, you have the 4490 upgrade for only $70.  How close to the Bimby will that get me?  
  
 Anyway, they all sound great with the Ember so the pairing is really a non-issue.  I'd feel fairly confident in saying the Bimby outclasses the Uberfrost, but it really depends on your wallet whether or not that's worth an extra couple hundred of bucks.  
  
 I know someone who is going to have all three Bifrost versions on their desk next week to compare side by side.  I'm waiting to hear what he says before finally making a decision...


----------



## TraceStar

Was away for almost a week. Boy, did I miss the Ember with my Grado GH-1. IEMs are convenient but not exactly there with sound compared to a full Headphone with a great amp.


----------



## ericr

Project Ember 2.1 is shipping!

As seen on the Garage1217 blog:

http://garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_013.htm


----------



## husafreak

Thanks for the heads up! Luckily I have no noise problems with my Ember 2 and the tubes I've rolled.


----------



## Tuneslover

Hello everyone, it's been a while since I tuned into this thread. I was just wondering if there are any comparisons between the Project Ember and Schiit Vali2 now that the V2 has been out for a couple of months. Thanks.


----------



## HOWIE13

tuneslover said:


> Hello everyone, it's been a while since I tuned into this thread. I was just wondering if there are any comparisons between the Project Ember and Schiit Vali2 now that the V2 has been out for a couple of months. Thanks.


 
 I've not seen any such comparison, though it's not something I've been actively seeking out.
 I've read comparisons with Starlight, and in stock configuration they seem similar, but the greater configurability and tube rolling capabilities of the Starlight potentially can provide a better sound experience for your personal needs.


----------



## DecentLevi

I tried the Schit Vali 2 at the recent meet I put together, and while it wasn't an A/B comparison using any of the same headphones, what I will tell you is that it seemed only meeting but NOT exceeding the sound of the Ember 2 in any way, shape or form. I tried the DT 1770 and Fostex TH-X00 and at least on these headphones, I got a feeling they were way underpowered and not refined by any stretch of the imagination. (though the amp owner later told me it may have been on low gain mode)


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> I tried the Schit Vali 2 at the recent meet I put together, and while it wasn't an A/B comparison using any of the same headphones, what I will tell you is that it seemed only meeting but NOT exceeding the sound of the Ember 2 in any way, shape or form. I tried the DT 1770 and Fostex TH-X00 and at least on these headphones, I got a feeling they were way underpowered and not refined by any stretch of the imagination. (though the amp owner later told me it may have been on low gain mode)


 
 That's my personal experience too. I also haven't done a formal, in depth A/B comparison but the Ember is clearly in a different league.
  
 More power, control, layering, refinement in the mids and treble, much bigger sound-stage, much more configurable, etc, etc.
  
 The Vali2 is a great amp for the money, I have it for listening at low volume in bed with IEM's and it's perfect for that. The Ember is overpowered for my needs for very sensitive, very low impedance IEM's.
  
 The most annoying thing I find about the Vali2 is the background hum, which isn't a grounding issue, but I think inherent to the amp, heard with most tubes and many lower impedance cans using the high gain setting. Fortunately, low gain is silent.
  
 The other odd thing is that although the Starlight is rated as slightly lower powered than the Vali2 it actually achieves louder volumes with the same tube-odd, and makes me wonder how accurate output figures are-maybe also due to the slightly higher, not changeable, output impedance of the Vali 2.


----------



## SuperU

Well, I am now back and almost ready to pull the trigger on a new Ember. 
  
 I almost did last year then money got a bit tight.
  
 Currently I have a Schiit Asgard 2 coupled with an Uber Bifrost and LCD-X headphones.
  
 I like the bass that the LCD-X delivers. But like the overall neutrality overall. 
  
 I'm hoping I would hear a positive difference in going from Schiit Asgard 2 to the Ember 2. I intend to still use my Uber Bifrost.
  
 Any suggestions anyone here might have, I'm all ears.


----------



## skyline315

superu said:


> Well, I am now back and almost ready to pull the trigger on a new Ember.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 


No suggestions...I think you're making the right move. When you order, ask Jeremy what he a thinks a good tube pairing will be with the LCD-X.

Also, for not much money at all, I would recommend upping your Bifrost to the 4490. Less than $100 if you do a self-install.


----------



## SuperU

skyline315 said:


> superu said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I am now back and almost ready to pull the trigger on a new Ember.
> ...


 
 Thanks for your thoughts.
  
 Is there really much difference between the Uber Bifrost and if I upgraded to the 4490? I suppose I could go clear to the Multibit, but sending equipment out of the country I live in is very expensive and difficult. So, sending in a card for $70 or whatever, would be far preferable. Can't see to find out much about this upgrade. What difference should I hear?

 Also, I'm not at all able to install it, but I have an electrician who can if it is not really hard. Is it a pretty easy install?
  
 I did ask about tubes. They recommended these: The 6n6p, 6n30p and 5814 black plate.

 Any thoughts about them?


----------



## Tuneslover

superu said:


> Well, I am now back and almost ready to pull the trigger on a new Ember.
> 
> I almost did last year then money got a bit tight.
> 
> ...



For one I would upgrade your Uber to 4490 card. Install it yourself, it's really easy and much cheaper.


----------



## Tuneslover

tuneslover said:


> For one I would upgrade your Uber to 4490 card. Install it yourself, it's really easy and much cheaper.





superu said:


> Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> Is there really much difference between the Uber Bifrost and if I upgraded to the 4490? I suppose I could go clear to the Multibit, but sending equipment out of the country I live in is very expensive and difficult. So, sending in a card for $70 or whatever, would be far preferable. Can't see to find out much about this upgrade. What difference should I hear?
> 
> ...




The self install is really easy...go to the Bifrost Uber Upgrade thread because there is a step by step outline complete with photos. I just followed that and it was a snap. As for the difference in sound check out the Bifrost 4490 thread, I and others have comments on the difference between the Uber and the 4490. It's definitely an upgrade and an inexpensive one if you do the install yourself.


----------



## DecentLevi

I've heard the Bifrost with 4490 chip - the sound is absolutely nothing short of angelic and mesmerizing! The highest words of praise I could possibly come up with! And some super-critical fellow members said it compares extremely well to the Bimby (multibit version) costing several times more.


----------



## skyline315

superu said:


> Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> Is there really much difference between the Uber Bifrost and if I upgraded to the 4490? I suppose I could go clear to the Multibit, but sending equipment out of the country I live in is very expensive and difficult. So, sending in a card for $70 or whatever, would be far preferable. Can't see to find out much about this upgrade. What difference should I hear?
> 
> ...


 
 YMMV on the difference you hear between the Uber and 4490.  Many people are DAC deaf and really don't hear a difference at all.  If that's you, consider yourself lucky.
  
 For me, the difference was significant.  There is more refinement and control...less congested may be the best descriptor.  Completely worth the $70 for me, especially after hearing the Bimby.  The Bimby is a fantastic DAC, but if you're talking about diminishing returns, then this is a shining example.  It can be argued that the Bimby has better detail retrieval, but the differences really come down to personal preference.  A touch more warmth (Bimby) or a touch more energy and sparkle (4490).  Really, though, the difference between the two is very small...and the price difference...not so small.  4490, hands down.
  
 As others said, the upgrade is pretty straightforward and well outlined in the Uber thread.  If you go down that road and need tips, then by all means let me know and I can share my experience.
  
 As for the tubes, I run a 6N6P with my HE-500 and LOVE it.  It's a darker/smokier tube, but it does so without losing detail or sounding smeared.  It didn't pair so well with the HD650, though...made it seem a bit dead.  I'm afraid I can't offer much of a pairing suggestion with the Audeze phones.
  
 I also have a 6DJ8 (Amperex) that I find to be an excellent all rounder that sounds good with just about anything.


----------



## Tunkejazz

From the designer of the Ember/Polaris about multibit dacs...worth reading.

http://diyah.boards.net/post/18445


----------



## Solrighal

tunkejazz said:


> From the designer of the Ember/Polaris about multibit dacs...worth reading.
> 
> http://diyah.boards.net/post/18445


 
  
 Yup. Frans' opinion is good enough for me.


----------



## SuperU

After reading Fran's thoughts, and getting a number of you saying I should absolutely go for it, I bought the upgrade for my Uber Bifrost to the 4490. I hope I'm not DAC deaf. LOL
  
 On another note...
  
 On the Garage1217 blog, I read a number of people saying that higher impedance headphones are better with the Ember - better because they are quieter.
  
 My LCD-X are rated at 20 ohms which is quite low impedance. I can drive them from my iPad, but they don't sound real good. They actually like 1 watt or more of power. But they are low in ohms. And one thing I hate is noise or hiss. (though maybe these days I couldn't hear it as much as I've lost much of my high end of hearing. LOL)
  
 So, still think the Ember is the right choice with the 6N6P and the stock tube it comes with?
  
 Also, how long does a tube last on average?


----------



## skyline315

superu said:


> After reading Fran's thoughts, and getting a number of you saying I should absolutely go for it, I bought the upgrade for my Uber Bifrost to the 4490. I hope I'm not DAC deaf. LOL
> 
> On another note...
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's not all about impedance.  Your LCD-X should be just fine.  
  
 Tube life varies.  A new tube can last you a few years.  Of course there are always duds and it depends on how much you run them, etc.


----------



## SuperU

Well I'm excited to say that I sent the order through today for a new Ember 2. 
  
 The new upgrade for my UberFrost and the Ember 2 should arrive at the same time. 
  
 I can't wait to be able to give the Ember 2 a serious listen. Hopefully I will notice a difference between it and the Asgard 2.
  
 Thanks to everyone here who helped me with this.
  
 Soon as I get it in my hands, I will report. Will take about 2 weeks to get all the way to me.


----------



## SuperU

Hey everybody.
  
 I got my Ember 2 and the 4490 upgrade for my Bifrost today.
  
 Here are some impressions after a few hours...
  
 I'm using my LCD-X headphones that I have on for like 12 hours daily. I also tried it with my MadDog Pro headphones.
  
 First off, I am no audiophile, so I apologize in advance if my words are not very sophisticated. LOL
  
 Before I upgraded my Bifrost, I simply swapped out my Asgard 2 for the Ember 2. The Ember 2 has the stock RCA cleartop 12au7 tube in it.
  
 I turned it on, turned on a track I'm very familiar with... And... 
  
*HOLY *****
* *
 The mids sounded louder or more forward. Not sure how to phrase it, but they were more present. Maybe even a tad too much.
  
 As I kept switching the music around, the bass on this is incredible. A distinct improvement. Clear and present. Detailed.
  
 But the biggest thing I noticed is everything was in it's place on a bigger sound stage. Like it is more precisely placed. Clear. It seems both taller and wider.
  
 Yet, I had a nagging feeling like the mids were too present. I started thinking that it might just need me to settle in with it. 
  
 I was a bit surprised I could hear a difference. But hear one I can. And it is quite a difference.
  
 Finally I put on my MadDog Pro's and what a let down. They are just not in the same league as the LCD-X. I felt so much bass was just ripped out from my ears. Even cranking them way up didn't help. The Ember 2 finally let's me really hear the difference and clearly. I didn't want to listen to them for long. About 15 minutes to be sure what I was hearing was right. It was.
  
 After about an hour of listening and loving this, I decided to do the upgrade to the 4490 on my Bifrost.
  
* *
*Bifrost upgrade to the 4490 board.*
* *
 (Thanks to those of you who encouraged me to do it myself. It was super fast and easy. Ten minutes and would have been faster but so many little screws.)
  
 Got it all set up, plugged in and turned on.
  
And WOW again!
  
 The mids smoothed right out. But they maintain their presence somehow. More natural sounding. Again, a big upgrade.
  
 And again, I'm a bit at a loss for words. The soundstage seems bigger still. I hear the reverb far clearer. The bass and sub bass are just outstanding. It's like I'm hearing layers of music. The high end sounds are distinctly in their own space. The bass and sub bass are in their space. It's so much wider and deeper. And again, a jump in clarity. Everything just fits together better. $70 was a steal for the 4490.
  
 Just damn. This is so good I've been mesmerized.
  
 Tomorrow I might put in my 6n6p tube and see if I hear a difference in it. Or I might not and just get used to all this.
  
  
*Conclusion*
  
 Seriously, this is an enormous upgrade all the way around. 
  
 I feel like my LCD-X's are putting out sound better than ever. I hear things in tracks I have not heard before. A rustling behind me in one that had me looking around the room. 
  
 EDM is just outstanding. I have never heard it sound so good. Tiny details that weren't there before, now are. Precision, or maybe it's tightness in the low bass. While at the same time a clearness in the mids. And the highs are there in perfect balance. 
  
 I am completely immersed as never before.
  
 I sound like a babbling school girl. Ha ha. It is really that good. Super spaciousness, but with a more real sound. Not so cold like with the Asgard and the Uberfrost. The bass growls and pounds and pulses. I can feel it in my chest and stomach. Or at least it seems that way.
  
 Does music get better than this?
  
 My LCD-X has come to life with the Ember 2. I would never have believed it if you had told me I'd hear this much. 
  
 Right now, Prometheus - Corridor of Mirrors - 9th (the man who swam through a speaker) is pulsing away as I write. It's hard to concentrate on what I'm trying to say. Ahh screw it... I had to turn it up a bit and just listen. Such precision and layering. Nothing seems to bleed on top of other things.
  
 I have not heard higher end systems, so all I can compare it to is what I had, as I have outlined. But that is not half bad equipment. And this is FAR better.
  
 I hope this helps someone.
  
 Jeremey - thank you! You guys are incredible. I'm glad I went for this.


----------



## skyline315

Thanks for the update @SuperU
  
 We now have the same setup, except I've got the HE-500.
  
 At the least headphone meetup I went to I listened to a whole slew of 1-$3,000 headphones, amps, and DACs.  And after going back to my system there wasn't even the tiniest hint of a letdown.  It's really remarkable how much good sound you can get on a relatively modest budget these days.
  
 Big thanks to companies like Garage1217 and Schiit who are putting really killer gear out there at very reasonable prices.


----------



## TraceStar

I agree. Went to an audio store the other day to order some stuff. Tested out my headphones on really expensive amps and dacs just for kicks. Relaxed for a couple of hours there. The Ember 2 still sings when I listen to it @home. It's a wonder how great it sounds at a fraction of the price.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## SuperU

skyline315 said:


> Thanks for the update @SuperU
> 
> We now have the same setup, except I've got the HE-500.
> 
> ...


 
 Nice. I have not heard the HE-500 but have read nice things about them.
  
 I second your compliments to Garage1217 and Schiit. Just awesome gear.
  
  


tracestar said:


> I agree. Went to an audio store the other day to order some stuff. Tested out my headphones on really expensive amps and dacs just for kicks. Relaxed for a couple of hours there. The Ember 2 still sings when I listen to it @home. It's a wonder how great it sounds at a fraction of the price.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


 
 TraceStar, it is good to know this tests well against higher end stuff.
  
 I just wrote this to Jeremy at Garage1217
  
 "I'm telling you, I really did not expect this. I bought the Ember 2 thinking that if nothing else I will have a second amp for something. I thought I was going to have to spend like $2500+ to get something the next step better. Now I wonder if even spending that much would make much of a difference from what I have. Nor do I have much interest in doing that now. What I have is amazing.

 This is beyond my expectations."
  
 I think I will keep the tube it came with in it for a week or so. Then change it out to the 6n6p and listen for what differences there are.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Don't get much excited now! 

It's all about going down the rabbit hole for you from now on... Start changing tubes and you WILL hear more differences for sure. I feel sorry about your pocket.

Congratulations anyway. Ember is the end game in regards to amps for me.


----------



## SuperU

bobmonkhouse said:


> Don't get much excited now!
> 
> It's all about going down the rabbit hole for you from now on... Start changing tubes and you WILL hear more differences for sure. I feel sorry about your pocket.
> 
> Congratulations anyway. Ember is the end game in regards to amps for me.


 
 Yeah, I did get a bit excited. Still am.
  
 Thing is, I just didn't expect this. I'm embarrassed to admit that I kind of thought this would just be something until I could afford some $2500 amp. So I was blown away by how good this really is. It has ended my desire for more. And if/when it hits again, I may try a few different tubes. Though, I don't really want to spend a lot there either. No real need. I love what I'm using that came with it. And I have a 6n6p to try. Once I settle on one, I'll buy 5 or 6 just in case something happens. 
  
 This is most probably end game for me too.


----------



## ericr

Hey SuperU, I can relate to your posts! I came to the Ember from the Asgard 2 as well. Then I also added an R-2R DAC (mine happens to be from MHDT Labs) and other than some tube rolling, like you, I am feeling little if any need to upgrade.


----------



## DavidA

ericr said:


> Hey SuperU, I can relate to your posts! I came to the Ember from the Asgard 2 as well. Then I also added an R-2R DAC (mine happens to be from MHDT Labs) and other than some tube rolling, like you, I am feeling little if any need to upgrade.


 
 Can I ask which MHDT DAC you have?  I found a great deal on a Pagoda ($400) but GF said to wait since we are planning a long trip in a few months, still kicking my self for not picking it up.


----------



## Luckbad

davida said:


> Can I ask which MHDT DAC you have?  I found a great deal on a Pagoda ($400) but GF said to wait since we are planning a long trip in a few months, still kicking my self for not picking it up.


 
  
 There's a 0% I wouldn't have purchased the Pagoda at $400.


----------



## DavidA

luckbad said:


> There's a 0% I wouldn't have purchased the Pagoda at $400.


 
 It was bad enough when @Soundsgoodtome said it was a smash and grab deal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I feel bad enough on passing on the deal but a happy GF is always better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, who knows she may just but it for me later.


----------



## ericr

davida said:


> Can I ask which MHDT DAC you have?  I found a great deal on a Pagoda ($400) but GF said to wait since we are planning a long trip in a few months, still kicking my self for not picking it up.



Wow, a Pagoda for $400? Go ahead and get it, and I'll buy it for $450 - just because I want to help fund your trip! 

The Paradisea 3 is what I'm using (now discontinued). I liked it enough I bought a second for work. Though I am seriously considering moving up in the MHDT product line.


----------



## DavidA

ericr said:


> Wow, a Pagoda for $400? Go ahead and get it, and I'll buy it for $450 - just because I want to help fund your trip!
> 
> The Paradisea 3 is what I'm using (now discontinued). I liked it enough I bought a second for work. Though I am seriously considering moving up in the MHDT product line.


 
 Thanks for the reply.  The Pagoda is long gone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I called 2 days later and the seller said she had sold it a few hours after I saw it. 
  
 I just happened to see a notice of an estate sale in the local paper and it was within walking distance so my GF and I decided to walk our dog over to look and see what they had.


----------



## SuperU

ericr said:


> Hey SuperU, I can relate to your posts! I came to the Ember from the Asgard 2 as well. Then I also added an R-2R DAC (mine happens to be from MHDT Labs) and other than some tube rolling, like you, I am feeling little if any need to upgrade.


 
 Hey Ericr,
  
 I'm glad you can relate. I've had all kinds of thoughts running through my mind. Never thought I was any kind of audiophile and never thought I'd actually hear much change. But I did! And that really made me happy. 
  
 People have said that the LCD-X's can scale right on up. I just didn't think I was going up - more I thought I was just going lateral. But the difference is HUGE. Like another world. 
  
 One nice thing is the cold "edge" of the Asgard 2 + UberFrost is gone. I didn't even know it was there until I compared the two. But I did know that it just didn't seem I was getting a really high end sound and I felt I should be. That is all changed now.
  
 So thanks for the vote of support. I feel better. 
  
 Now about your DAC. Are DACs from MHDT Labs a significant upgrade to the Bifrost 4490 that I have? The Pagoda looks like their high end DAC. Is that right?
  
 About all I could do now is upgrade my DAC. Not sure that is too important to me right now as my ears are having constant eargasms with what I have.
  
 From what I've read, the Ember 2 excels more with the better a DAC you combine it with. That true?


----------



## skyline315

superu said:


> Hey Ericr,
> 
> I'm glad you can relate. I've had all kinds of thoughts running through my mind. Never thought I was any kind of audiophile and never thought I'd actually hear much change. But I did! And that really made me happy.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Go from Uberfrost to 4490.  Cheap and well worth it, in my opinion.


----------



## SuperU

skyline315 said:


> Go from Uberfrost to 4490.  Cheap and well worth it, in my opinion.


 
 Yep, that's what I did. 
  
 Am I now at the level where I can be content? Or do I need to get into a different DAC to bring out the best in my Ember 2/LCD-X?


----------



## skyline315

superu said:


> Yep, that's what I did.
> 
> Am I now at the level where I can be content? Or do I need to get into a different DAC to bring out the best in my Ember 2/LCD-X?


 
  
 I always advise contentment.
  
 Wouldn't it be nice to put the upgraditis behind and just enjoy listening to some music for a while?


----------



## SuperU

skyline315 said:


> I always advise contentment.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice to put the upgraditis behind and just enjoy listening to some music for a while?


 
 Very wise. And for the first time in a long time, I can do that and feel great about it.


----------



## DavidA

superu said:


> Now about your DAC. Are DACs from MHDT Labs a significant upgrade to the Bifrost 4490 that I have? The Pagoda looks like their high end DAC. Is that right?
> 
> About all I could do now is upgrade my DAC. Not sure that is too important to me right now as my ears are having constant eargasms with what I have.
> 
> From what I've read, the Ember 2 excels more with the better a DAC you combine it with. That true?


 
 MHDT DACs are a step up from Uber and MB Bifrost from my experience, the Pagoda is one of the best that I've heard.


----------



## Luckbad

davida said:


> MHDT DACs are a step up from Uber and MB Bifrost from my experience, the Pagoda is no longer made but its one of the best that I've heard.


 
  
 You might be thinking of the Paradisea, which was replaced by Havana, which was replaced by Stockholm and now Stockholm v2.
  
 The Pagoda is still the top offering, and the Stockholm v2 and Atlantis are being made.
  
 I absolutely love my two MHDT Labs Atlantis DACs. I have one paired with a Garage1217 Project Horizon III at work.
  
 Gorgeous sound that you can tune to your liking with multiple tubes in the chain.


----------



## ericr

superu said:


> ...
> Now about your DAC. Are DACs from MHDT Labs a significant upgrade to the Bifrost 4490 that I have? The Pagoda looks like their high end DAC. Is that right?
> 
> About all I could do now is upgrade my DAC. Not sure that is too important to me right now as my ears are having constant eargasms with what I have.
> ...



I've never heard the 4490 Bifrost, but here's my experience in a nutshell. Went from the Clip Zip to the HRT Microstreamer (a great unit for the $$ that I still use when traveling). Then on to the Bifrost Uber for a year or more until I bought a MHDT Paradisea 3, which kicked the Uber aside. When the Bimby was released I was one of the first few to upgrade and with all of the discussion and excitement I was expecting it to displace the P3. While the Multi-Bit upgrade is a great deal for the money, it hasn't unseated the P3 (and will soon be up for sale). A couple of months ago I had a MHDT Stockholm 2 for a week and was able to hear the differences between the Bimby, Paradisea 3 and Stockholm 2 (which was my favorite) using the Ember. Also at a meet, I was able to try my Ember with the Yggy for 10 minutes or so at a meet last fall and was very impressed.

Hopefully I'll get a few days with a MHDT Pagoda (TOTL) here soon, and would love to hear the Gumby some day, too.

Hope that helps!

Since this is off-topic, feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

-Eric


----------



## SuperU

ericr said:


> I've never heard the 4490 Bifrost, but here's my experience in a nutshell. Went from the Clip Zip to the HRT Microstreamer (a great unit for the $$ that I still use when traveling). Then on to the Bifrost Uber for a year or more until I bought a MHDT Paradisea 3, which kicked the Uber aside. When the Bimby was released I was one of the first few to upgrade and with all of the discussion and excitement I was expecting it to displace the P3. While the Multi-Bit upgrade is a great deal for the money, it hasn't unseated the P3 (and will soon be up for sale). A couple of months ago I had a MHDT Stockholm 2 for a week and was able to hear the differences between the Bimby, Paradisea 3 and Stockholm 2 (which was my favorite) using Google the Ember. Also at a meet, I was able to try my Ember with the Yggy for 10 minutes or so at a meet last fall and was very impressed.
> 
> Hopefully I'll get a few days with a MHDT Pagoda (TOTL) here soon, and would love to hear the Gumby some day, too.
> 
> ...


 
 Eric - I'll contact you by PM.
  
 While I am blown away happy with what I now have, I would like to find in a DAC the same kind of value I have found in my Ember 2 by Garage1217. 
  
 Maybe not to buy now. But I had a good amp - the Asgard 2. It is no slouch. And the Ember 2 kicks it to the curb. So if it is possible to do that again with my DAC, I would probably do it, if I could find the same kind of value proposition.
  
 I haven't even yet tried the 6N6P tube in my Ember 2 as I'm still blown away by the sound.


----------



## amigastar

I love my Ember 2.0 since the day i got it.
 For now i'm fullfilled with my Audio gear needs.
  
 The only thing that would be nice to upgrade is my Concero Dac, but i'm not sure if it would make a difference to  go with a lets say 400 bucks more expensive dac.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

Considering getting Ember but I have one concern. I read that there is channel imbalance below 9 o'clock on the vol pot and that is considered normal. I'm not sure I like the sound of it, though. Does that mean that one channel is noticeably louder than the other and to get rid of that imbalance, you have to get above 9 o'clock? How loud is 9 o'clock? What are "normal" listening levels for this amp?


----------



## husafreak

The Ember does not necessarily have a channel imbalance below 9:00. A worst case scenario would be extremely efficient headphones and  a very powerful source, where normal listening levels would be below 9:00 on the volume pot. The PDF manual available on the Garage 1217 website mentions this under "Normal Operation And Notes" and you can configure the input attenuation module to avoid this. I have sensitive cans and a very high output CD player so I am often listening to CD's near the 9:00 position, I have never heard any channel imbalance or scratching sounds loud enough to notice (caps bypassed) but that may be because I was lucky with my tube selections. Definitely read the manual. It is amazing how configurable the Ember II is.


----------



## SuperU

I also don't notice any of this.
  
 I am frequently listening below 9 AM on the dial. Most of the time actually. My headphones are LCD-X, so I would probably notice.
  
 All I can say is the Ember 2 is pure bliss for me.
  
 Mine is configured as it came, no changes other than I put in a 6n6p tube.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

husafreak said:


> The Ember does not necessarily have a channel imbalance below 9:00. A worst case scenario would be extremely efficient headphones and  a very powerful source, where normal listening levels would be below 9:00 on the volume pot. The PDF manual available on the Garage 1217 website mentions this under "Normal Operation And Notes" and you can configure the input attenuation module to avoid this. I have sensitive cans and a very high output CD player so I am often listening to CD's near the 9:00 position, I have never heard any channel imbalance or scratching sounds loud enough to notice (caps bypassed) but that may be because I was lucky with my tube selections. Definitely read the manual. It is amazing how configurable the Ember II is.


 
 Thanks for your reply. Your experience is re-assuring. I have a very high output CD player too and HD650s and on my integrated Marantz PM6004 amp I seldom go above 9:00 position. 
  


superu said:


> I also don't notice any of this.
> 
> I am frequently listening below 9 AM on the dial. Most of the time actually. My headphones are LCD-X, so I would probably notice.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks. I am almost certain I am going to order one soon. Just need to decide between the acrylic and metal chassis. The acrylic looks so cool but the metal one gives it a more professional appearance. I don't think I'll have any noisy electronics in the room (just a TV and iPad, iPhone) so I don't think I need to aluminum for noise protection.


----------



## skyline315

hihead hunter said:


> Thanks for your reply. Your experience is re-assuring. I have a very high output CD player too and HD650s and on my integrated Marantz PM6004 amp I seldom go above 9:00 position.
> 
> Thanks. I am almost certain I am going to order one soon. Just need to decide between the acrylic and metal chassis. The acrylic looks so cool but the metal one gives it a more professional appearance. I don't think I'll have any noisy electronics in the room (just a TV and iPad, iPhone) so I don't think I need to aluminum for noise protection.


 
 Metal looks classier, in my opinion.


----------



## SuperU

hihead hunter said:


> Thanks for your reply. Your experience is re-assuring. I have a very high output CD player too and HD650s and on my integrated Marantz PM6004 amp I seldom go above 9:00 position.
> 
> Thanks. I am almost certain I am going to order one soon. Just need to decide between the acrylic and metal chassis. The acrylic looks so cool but the metal one gives it a more professional appearance. I don't think I'll have any noisy electronics in the room (just a TV and iPad, iPhone) so I don't think I need to aluminum for noise protection.


 
 I got the metal because I thought it looks "higher end". Mine is beautiful.


----------



## mowgli-kun

The acryllic chassis looks gorgeous if you do most of your listening in the dark. Aluminum chassis if you tend to leave the lights on.


----------



## DavidA

mowgli-kun said:


> The acryllic chassis looks gorgeous if you do most of your listening in the dark. Aluminum chassis if you tend to leave the lights on.


 
 The in the dark look is what made my GF  buy the Ember for me, only thing is she likes pink..


----------



## mowgli-kun

davida said:


> The in the dark look is what made my GF  buy the Ember for me, only thing is she likes pink..


 
  
 All the acryllic Garage1217 amps look gorgeous in the dark. Your girlfriend has great taste!


----------



## HiHead Hunter

mowgli-kun said:


> The acryllic chassis looks gorgeous if you do most of your listening in the dark. Aluminum chassis if you tend to leave the lights on.


 
  
  


davida said:


> The in the dark look is what made my GF  buy the Ember for me, only thing is she likes pink..


 
  
  


mowgli-kun said:


> All the acryllic Garage1217 amps look gorgeous in the dark. Your girlfriend has great taste!


 
 You guys are not making this easy for me   I was almost set on the metal chassis.


----------



## mowgli-kun

hihead hunter said:


> You guys are not making this easy for me   I was almost set on the metal chassis.


 
  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




    Follow your heart! The aluminum is very stealth-looking, but the acryllic can't help but draw attention to itself.
  
 I got both chassis for my Polaris (because Jeremy ran out of the aluminum cases at the time).
  
 If it's any help, I settled on the aluminum. It looks better under lighting and also adds more weight to the amp so it doesn't shift around as easily when handled. The acrylic was also a bit of a fingerprint maget, in my experience.


----------



## SuperU

hihead hunter said:


> You guys are not making this easy for me   I was almost set on the metal chassis.


 
 I love my metal - music and Ember. 
  
 Let me assure you, turn off the lights and the metal chassis is also beautiful. I love the glow that radiates throughout.


----------



## RedBull

Get both, change depending on the mood and song


----------



## husafreak

I dig the acrylic top, for both my Ember and Polaris. I like seeing all the circuit parts. If you are a guy who likes watches where you can see the gears and moving parts you will like the acrylic top.


----------



## techboy

If anybody is interested in buying an Ember with a lot of tubes:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191904845097?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649


----------



## Tadamn

Getting both is really the best decission so far, though it takes some money)


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

This amp is really getting my attention....anyone have any knowledge on how the ZMF Vibro does with it? I am using a Vali first gen at the moment and after hearing my buddies amp (highly praised and not trying to name drop for sake of sales pitch....) I can hear the difference in what I am missing with more power.... Anyhoo I care more about how musical an amp is then to dry and analytical. Any insight on the matter would be helpful. Started at page 25 to about 30 before I posted btw. Also feel free to PM me if you feel this is too off topic.


----------



## DavidA

bunnynamedfrank said:


> This amp is really getting my attention....anyone have any knowledge on how the ZMF Vibro does with it? I am using a Vali first gen at the moment and after hearing my buddies amp (highly praised and not trying to name drop for sake of sales pitch....) I can hear the difference in what I am missing with more power.... Anyhoo I care more about how musical an amp is then to dry and analytical. Any insight on the matter would be helpful. Started at page 25 to about 30 before I posted btw. Also feel free to PM me if you feel this is too off topic.


 
 I don't know how the Ember will sound with the ZMF Vibro but I know the Vali is not a great amp for low impedance headphones.  The Ember is one of the most flexible amps around, it will drive a planar like the HE-400i/560 quite well and also work with high impedance headphones like HD-600/650/800.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

davida said:


> I don't know how the Ember will sound with the ZMF Vibro but I know the Vali is not a great amp for low impedance headphones.  The Ember is one of the most flexible amps around, it will drive a planar like the HE-400i/560 quite well and also work with high impedance headphones like HD-600/650/800.




Gotcha. I am interested to read more about this and see if it's the move I want to make. Thanks for your input


----------



## DavidA

bunnynamedfrank said:


> Gotcha. I am interested to read more about this and see if it's the move I want to make. Thanks for your input


 

 Suggest going to Garage 1217 site: http://www.garage1217.com/ for all your questions


----------



## mowgli-kun

bunnynamedfrank said:


> Gotcha. I am interested to read more about this and see if it's the move I want to make. Thanks for your input


 
  
Email Jeremy! Garage1217 is pretty much a two-person operation, but their customer support is awesome.
  
 From what I've read, the Project Sunrise and Solstice are the more "tubey" sounding amps in their lineup. This page might help you decide.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

mowgli-kun said:


> Email Jeremy! Garage1217 is pretty much a two-person operation, but their customer support is awesome.
> 
> From what I've read, the Project Sunrise and Solstice are the more "tubey" sounding amps in their lineup. This page might help you decide.




Real good idea thank you. Just sent him/them a detailed message!


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

mowgli-kun said:


> Email Jeremy! Garage1217 is pretty much a two-person operation, but their customer support is awesome.
> 
> From what I've read, the Project Sunrise and Solstice are the more "tubey" sounding amps in their lineup. This page might help you decide.




Also I just had time to look at that spreadsheet. Freaking awesome....


----------



## Solrighal

bunnynamedfrank said:


> Also I just had time to look at that spreadsheet. Freaking awesome....


 
  
 It's an excellent amp for the money.


----------



## mowgli-kun

bunnynamedfrank said:


> Also I just had time to look at that spreadsheet. Freaking awesome....


 
  
 The Ember & Polaris are their powerhouse flagships, but you might not have to spend that much to get what you're looking for (musicality,warmth). Best of luck!


----------



## iancraig10

davida said:


> I don't know how the Ember will sound with the ZMF Vibro but I know the Vali is not a great amp for low impedance headphones.  The Ember is one of the most flexible amps around, it will drive a planar like the HE-400i/560 quite well and also work with high impedance headphones like HD-600/650/800.




IMO, the Polaris is better with low impedance headphones than the Ember. I find the noise levels slightly higher on the Ember so that you can get slight hiss on low impedance headphones. The Polaris is a bit more flexible with output power and also input, although the input power doesn't affect noise levels.


----------



## BunnyNamedCraig

iancraig10 said:


> IMO, the Polaris is better with low impedance headphones than the Ember. I find the noise levels slightly higher on the Ember so that you can get slight hiss on low impedance headphones. The Polaris is a bit more flexible with output power and also input, although the input power doesn't affect noise levels.




The Vali drove me nuts with the hiss I got from it with my k712... sent it back to them and they fixed it immediately. (Still not sure what it was that happened) but I bring this up because I can't stand much sound on the noise floor. So I will look into the Polaris as well. I just figured ember was the powerhouse and that was what i was missing. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## rez11

Using my 400i's through my new Polaris, i hear absolutley no noise or anything like that, really really love this amp cant even go past 9 oclock without blowing my ears off!  (modi2U dac)


----------



## amigastar

Hello,
  
 got a question:
 when using the volume knob i hear a little scratching.
 Is this normal, i happen to read somewhere about it but can't remember the answer. It only occurs when making louder and quieter though.


----------



## SuperU

I wanted to chime in here.
  
 I am using my Ember with a 6N6P tube, with my LCD-X headphones and LOVING it. 
  
 It blows the Schiit Asgard 2 out of the water to my ears. I hear zero noise. And no scratching when adjusting the volume (for what it's worth).
  
 To get a better sound, I would next go to a different DAC, though not sure which one. To get better sound out of my amp, I'm sure would thousands of dollars and even then I'm not sure it would be much better.
  
 The Ember 2 rocks for me.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Hello,
> 
> got a question:
> when using the volume knob i hear a little scratching.
> Is this normal, i happen to read somewhere about it but can't remember the answer. It only occurs when making louder and quieter though.


 
  
 Yes it's normal and occurs with some tubes and not others.
  
 If you look at the manual you will see how to invoke the input capacitors to remove the scratchiness but if it's mild and doesn't bother you I personally wouldn't bother.
 As you say it isn't heard during play unless you alter the volume.


----------



## DavidA

superu said:


> I wanted to chime in here.
> 
> I am using my Ember with a 6N6P tube, with my LCD-X headphones and LOVING it.
> 
> ...


 

 Curious, what aspect of the Ember blows the Asgard2 out of the water to your ears?  And is that only with the LCD-X or with other headphones as well?


----------



## HOWIE13

@SuperU
  
_'To get a better sound, I would next go to a different DAC, though not sure which one. To get better sound out of my amp, I'm sure would thousands of dollars and even then I'm not sure it would be much better.'_
  
  
 You could also consider tube rolling. Ember loves trying different tubes.


----------



## skyline315

superu said:


> To get a better sound, I would next go to a different DAC, though not sure which one.


 
  
 I don't think there's better value than the Bifrost 4490, which you already have.  Be content and enjoy the tunes.


----------



## SuperU

howie13 said:


> @SuperU
> 
> _'To get a better sound, I would next go to a different DAC, though not sure which one. To get better sound out of my amp, I'm sure would thousands of dollars and even then I'm not sure it would be much better.'_
> 
> ...


 
 I've tried a couple but love the 6n6p. I tried to start at the top and not mess around. It performs fantastic. So no point in throwing money away for nothing.
  


skyline315 said:


> I don't think there's better value than the Bifrost 4490, which you already have.  Be content and enjoy the tunes.


 
 I agree. What I have now is amazing. Still loving it.


----------



## HOWIE13

@SuperU
  
 6n6p is one of the best, tubey warm sounding single tubes I've heard.
  
 I think it may have been the stock tube Jeremy sent with my Ember. It's so long ago I can't be sure now.
  
 A very good choice.


----------



## skyline315

howie13 said:


> @SuperU
> 
> 6n6p is one of the best, tubey warm sounding single tubes I've heard.
> 
> ...


 
 Yep.
  
 I tossed all my other tubes into a drawer and haven't touched them since.


----------



## SuperU

skyline315 said:


> Yep.
> 
> I tossed all my other tubes into a drawer and haven't touched them since.


 
 Since my system is connected to my computer, it is on from about 7 AM till about 9 PM. I'm about to order a couple more from Jeremy in case this one stops working. I don't know how long to expect this to work with it being on that long everyday.


----------



## SuperU

skyline315 said:


> Yep.
> 
> I tossed all my other tubes into a drawer and haven't touched them since.


 
 Since my system is connected to my computer, it is on from about 7 AM till about 9 PM. I'm about to order a couple more from Jeremy in case this one stops working. I don't know how long to expect this to work with it being on that long everyday.
  
 Does anyone have an idea of what I might get from it time wise.


----------



## amigastar

superu said:


> Since my system is connected to my computer, it is on from about 7 AM till about 9 PM. I'm about to order a couple more from Jeremy in case this one stops working. I don't know how long to expect this to work with it being on that long everyday.


 
 yeah, i ask myself the same. I don't have my Ember on the whole day but after work for many hours and weekends even longer. I'm sure i have about 750 hours in since i got my ember with 6n6p tube (can't say how long exactly). I hope the tube will live for a little bit longer, lol.


----------



## DavidA

I think the Ember will last a long time, mine has been on for weeks at a time.  It probably has upwards of 2500 hours on it


----------



## iancraig10

The Ember will be fine. The tubes will go though. They can slowly become more noisy. It creeps up on you so very often, people don't notice until it's really bad!! Mind you, I had a tube suddenly go on me as well. It hissed like mad one day when I switched on and it was an Orange Globe as well.

I tend to use the Polaris more now though.


----------



## iancraig10

sorry. Double post and no delete on here.


----------



## DavidA

iancraig10 said:


> The Ember will be fine. The tubes will go though. They can slowly become more noisy. It creeps up on you so very often, people don't notice until it's really bad!! Mind you, I had a tube suddenly go on me as well. It hissed like mad one day when I switched on and it was an Orange Globe as well.
> 
> I tend to use the Polaris more now though.


 
 I've only had one tube (6080 in my BH Crack) die on me so far, it just faded away over a 2 day period.  With my Ember I've been rotating tubes about once a month so with 40+ tubes it will be a while before I need to get new ones, I'll probably be dead by then.


----------



## iancraig10

davida said:


> I've only had one tube (6080 in my BH Crack) die on me so far, it just faded away over a 2 day period.  With my Ember I've been rotating tubes about once a month so with 40+ tubes it will be a while before I need to get new ones, I'll probably be dead by then.






Tube rolling can become an obsession. I know one guy who spent more on tubes than the amp and really hasn't a clue what the Ember sounds like any more!!!


----------



## DecentLevi

Truth be told, most every tube roller inevitably spends more on tubes than the amp, including almost everybody I know from the Ember and another tube amp thread. It's like 'payment installments' so you can acheive sonic bliss to brighten each and every day!


----------



## DecentLevi

Another plus is that we can almost always resell the unwanted tubes to get most of our investment back


----------



## DavidA

iancraig10 said:


> Tube rolling can become an obsession. I know one guy who spent more on tubes than the amp and really hasn't a clue what the Ember sounds like any more!!!


 
 You now know 2 persons that spent more on tubes than the cost of the amp and this applies to my Ember, Lyr2 and BH Crack 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but I still know what my Ember sounds like


----------



## RedBull

Ember is only using a fraction of the tube life in operation voltage, unlike other tube amps who burn the tube like the max -》the amp gets really got -》shorter tube life.
IMO, Ember tube life could be longer than its stated on paper.


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Ember is only using a fraction of the tube life in operation voltage, unlike other tube amps who burn the tube like the max -》the amp gets really got -》shorter tube life.
> IMO, Ember tube life could be longer than its stated on paper.


 

 If that's the case then I have about 2 life times worth of tubes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, I was figuring about 2000 hours per tube so I figured I would "use up" two per year on average since I tend to keep the amps on about 8-16 hours per day.


----------



## RedBull

I am not so sure about 2x (maybe more, hehe) the lifetime but I am pretty sure with low voltage flow into the tube can prolonged the lifetime of the tube 
Also, turning the amp on and off more frequently tend to kill the tubes faster.


----------



## husafreak

My Ember didn't ship with 6n6p stock. But when I bought it I asked Jeremy to put a great all around Tube in the box and he recommended it for $20 extra. It is a good Tube.


----------



## RedBull

What tube did you get?


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> I am not so sure about 2x (maybe more, hehe) the lifetime but I am pretty sure with low voltage flow into the tube can prolonged the lifetime of the tube
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I think someone told me this, so at the most I turn on or off my tube amps once a day.


----------



## RedBull

Yup, I think that would be able to prolonged tube life.


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> I think someone told me this, so at the most I turn on or off my tube amps once a day.


 
 I'm going to have to re-think my habits. I switch on and off each time I have a listening session- maybe 3-4 times a day.


----------



## Solrighal

Mine's is on all the time but I use it as a pre-amp for everything.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Mine's is on all the time but I use it as a pre-amp for everything.


 
 Hi Gordon
  
 Don't you find it a bit warm in your sunny climes having it on all day?


----------



## iancraig10

howie13 said:


> I'm going to have to re-think my habits. I switch on and off each time I have a listening session- maybe 3-4 times a day.




I switch mine on at whatever time and then turn off before going to bed. Sometimes it's on first thing in the morning while at other times, maybe early evening.

I don't switch on and off on the same day. Polaris goes on all day as well.


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> I switch mine on at whatever time and then turn off before going to bed. Sometimes it's on first thing in the morning while at other times, maybe early evening.
> 
> I don't switch on and off on the same day. Polaris goes on all day as well.


 
 My problem is I'll forget to turn it off before I go to bed so it will be on all night as well!


----------



## DavidA

howie13 said:


> Hi Gordon
> 
> Don't you find it a bit warm in your sunny climes having it on all day?


 
 I live in Hawaii and have 3 space heaters, Lyr2 (hottest), BH Crack (very hot) and Ember (not bad actually).  The Asgard2 is also rather hot running, about the same as the BH Crack.
  
  


howie13 said:


> My problem is I'll forget to turn it off before I go to bed so it will be on all night as well!


 

 I've fell asleep many times on my recliner with everything still turned on, including the computer.  When I get up I just leave them on since I want to listen again.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well when it comes to the largest of tubes such as EL3N, I get a feeling they should last longer with less on/off so I try to leave the (Elise) on even when not in use for a while.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well when it comes to the largest of tubes such as EL3N, I get a feeling they should last longer with less on/off so I try to leave the (Elise) on even when not in use for a while.


 
 Okay looks like I'm in the minority on this one.


----------



## Decommo

Hello, Guys.
  
 I will not ask many questions and I actually have not read all of posts on this thread so if this question already asked & answered, please accept my apology.
  
 I am about to purchase HD600 and would like to pair with tube amp. I was told that Crack+Speedball combo is the best one to go with. However, it is very hard to find it local where I live and I do not have time & skill to build it my own (Yeah.. I am terrible with soldering and last one that i did was over 20 years ago when I was in school).
  
 My shortlist is Schiit amps (Vali2 or Valhalla 2), Garage project (Starlight, Sunrise, Horizon, Ember).
  
 What confuse me the most is those 4 different tube amps from Garage project. Why there are 4 different ones that looks more or less same to me is beyond me.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I guess that Ember is the flagship so it is the best one to go for. Correct me if I am wrong.
  
 1. Has anyone have Schiit tube amps as well as Garage Project tube amps and pairing with HD600 and can share their experience a bit?
 I have SS amp for other headphones and this tube amp will mainly be used for HD600.
  
 2. If I understood correctly, HD600 matches the best with OTL tube amps such as Crack due to high impedence and low noise from OTL. 
 Is Garage Project also OTL?  And does it matter to be OTL?
  
 3. What would be ideal tube type for HD600? Is Philips PCC88 is better than stock tubes that Schiit & GarageProject provides for HD600?
  
 I guess that above questions come down to which one would be better for HD600 between Schiit and GarageProject. 
  
 Thank you very much for reading my post and love to hearing from you.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Hi Gordon
> 
> Don't you find it a bit warm in your sunny climes having it on all day?


 
  
 I know what you mean but I don't actually notice much difference to be honest. The open structure helps a lot in that respect, I think. My Mac, on the other hand, is running very hot these days. Worryingly so actually


----------



## iancraig10

decommo said:


> Hello, Guys.
> 
> I will not ask many questions and I actually have not read all of posts on this thread so if this question already asked & answered, please accept my apology.
> 
> ...




If you come onto DIYAH, the guy who designed them is there and will answer all of your questions on the Garage amps. His name is Solderdude and there is a big thread there on them. He goes into great detail concerning the design differences when asked. There is a difference in output power between them.

My favourite of the tube ones is the Ember, but I found the Sunrise and Horizon extremely good as well. Nowadays, I use the Polaris more.


----------



## Decommo

iancraig10 said:


> If you come onto DIYAH, the guy who designed them is there and will answer all of your questions on the Garage amps. His name is Solderdude and there is a big thread there on them. He goes into great detail concerning the design differences when asked. There is a difference in output power between them.
> 
> My favourite of the tube ones is the Ember, but I found the Sunrise and Horizon extremely good as well. Nowadays, I use the Polaris more.


 
  
 Thank you for your response.... Hmmm. I feel dumb to ask.... What is DIYAH? Is it the designer of Garage amp's name who happen to be a member of headfi?
  
 And if I understood you correctly, your fav is Ember but you use Polaris more because it is more convenient and easier to match with other headphones. Correct?


----------



## Decommo

iancraig10 said:


> If you come onto DIYAH, the guy who designed them is there and will answer all of your questions on the Garage amps. His name is Solderdude and there is a big thread there on them. He goes into great detail concerning the design differences when asked. There is a difference in output power between them.
> 
> My favourite of the tube ones is the Ember, but I found the Sunrise and Horizon extremely good as well. Nowadays, I use the Polaris more.


 
  
 No worries. I found DIYAH by googling it. It is DIY Audio Heaven Forum, right?


----------



## Decommo

DIYAH has 139 pages of thread...... Not sure If I can go through them.


----------



## Tadamn

decommo said:


> DIYAH has 139 pages of thread...... Not sure If I can go through them.


 

 What other alternatives do we have?


----------



## Luckbad

decommo said:


> :eek:  DIYAH has 139 pages of thread...... Not sure If I can go through them.




I'd personally recommend the Project Sunrise, but if you're getting your first tube amp, the Ember is a better choice because it's plug 'n' play.

I've owned Ember, Horizon, Sunrise, and Polaris. I still have and use the Horizon and Sunrise.


----------



## iancraig10

decommo said:


> No worries. I found DIYAH by googling it. It is DIY Audio Heaven Forum, right?




Yes, that's it. I'm 'Rabbit' on there. Yes, there are a lot of pages since it was started when the amps came out. Solderdude was discussing design aspects etc with us while designing.

I use the Polaris because it's better with low impedance headphones than the Ember. Lower noise floor and more options to reduce power. I also like it's sound which is slightly less 'tubey' than the Ember.


----------



## Decommo

luckbad said:


> decommo said:
> 
> 
> > DIYAH has 139 pages of thread...... Not sure If I can go through them.
> ...


 
  
 Thank you very much. After receiving your recommendation, I dig Project website and this is what I found.
  
 Starlight - Opamps
 Sunrise - OTL, Class A amp. (Yeah...It is OTL amp.. Where where you hiding when I search for OTL..). but this is only for 32~300ohm headphones. HD600 is 300 ohm so might be stretching? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Horizon - OTL, Class A amp. Sister amp to Sunrise but this is gear towards high impedence headphone between 120~600ohm
 Ember - Not sure if this is OTL. Doesn't say. But it says, "Auto bias. Simply plug in a tube from a long list of 6 & 12V dual triodes and it will bias itself" God knows what this mean...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It says that it is quite groundbreaking and it is flagship so it must be good.
 Polaris - Solid State amp with lot of features and tweaks. Oh....i am tempted with all those options to play with. But I was told HD600 is better with tube amps so not now, Polaris...
  
 It looks like either Sunrise or Horizon would be it. Is Sunrise powerful enough for HD600?


----------



## Decommo

iancraig10 said:


> decommo said:
> 
> 
> > No worries. I found DIYAH by googling it. It is DIY Audio Heaven Forum, right?
> ...


 
  
 Thank you... I will try to read the site whenever I can... I just ordered Grace M9xx so not looking for another SS amp. If I do not like M9xx, I will seriously consider Polaris.


----------



## RedBull

iancraig10 said:


> I use the Polaris because it's better with low impedance headphones than the Ember. Lower noise floor and more options to reduce power. I also like it's sound which is slightly less 'tubey' than the Ember.


 
  
 Have you tried 6SNT tubes?  I find the sound is very clean, less tubey than the Noval tube type.
  


luckbad said:


> I'd personally recommend the Project Sunrise, but if you're getting your first tube amp, the Ember is a better choice because it's plug 'n' play.
> 
> I've owned Ember, Horizon, Sunrise, and Polaris. I still have and use the Horizon and Sunrise.


 
  
 May I know your comment about the difference sound signature between them?


----------



## husafreak

redbull said:


> What tube did you get?



Russian 6n6p. Ill look at the package when I get home. But my favorite tune of all and the one I almost always use is a 6sn7 with adapter, also sourced via dealers pick from Jeremy. I have a Polaris too and I just do not think you can beat it fur the $. But I prefer the sound of tubes just slightly, the difference is subtle.


----------



## Luckbad

Decommo

Email Garage1217. I do slightly prefer the Horizon with my HD650, but the Sunrise does power them nicely as well.

I have both so I can cover a wider range of headphones.


----------



## Luckbad

RedBull
Yep, I wrote this comparison:


http://www.basshead.club/garage1217-project-ember-horizon-sunrise-review/


----------



## RedBull

husafreak said:


> Russian 6n6p. Ill look at the package when I get home. But my favorite tune of all and the one I almost always use is a 6sn7 with adapter, also sourced via dealers pick from Jeremy. I have a Polaris too and I just do not think you can beat it fur the $. But I prefer the sound of tubes just slightly, the difference is subtle.


 
  
 I don't have 6n6p but 6n30p, Jeremy said the sound is about the same.  Yes, it gives a nice full sound, I love it.  But my fav is like you, 6SN7.


----------



## skyline315

decommo said:


> It looks like either Sunrise or Horizon would be it. Is Sunrise powerful enough for HD600?


 
 Don't dismiss the Ember.  The HD600 sounds fantastic with it when paired with a 6N6P tube.
  
 Honestly, though, if you feel you're going to be using the 600 for a long time, I'd recommend the Valhalla 2.  If you think your headphone stable might fluctuate a bit, then the Ember gives you better versatility.


----------



## husafreak

Cool


----------



## SuperU

skyline315 said:


> Don't dismiss the Ember.  The HD600 sounds fantastic with it when paired with a 6N6P tube.
> 
> Honestly, though, if you feel you're going to be using the 600 for a long time, I'd recommend the Valhalla 2.  If you think your headphone stable might fluctuate a bit, then the Ember gives you better versatility.


 
 For what it's worth...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Here is another vote for the Ember 2. 
  
 I had the Asgard 2 (still do but it's in the closet now). The Ember runs much cooler.
  
 The Ember 2 just rocks with the 6n6p tube. I love it. 
  
 It has the power to drive most anything and is very adjustable.


----------



## Decommo

skyline315 said:


> decommo said:
> 
> 
> > It looks like either Sunrise or Horizon would be it. Is Sunrise powerful enough for HD600?
> ...




Thank you. May I know why Valhalla2 instead of Ember2 for HD600?


----------



## skyline315

decommo said:


> Thank you. May I know why Valhalla2 instead of Ember2 for HD600?


 
 The Valhalla is an OTL tube amp and is designed specifically with high impedance phones like the HD6X0 in mind.  But, if you decide to branch out in the future, especially into planars, then the Ember is a better option.


----------



## Decommo

skyline315 said:


> decommo said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you. May I know why Valhalla2 instead of Ember2 for HD600?
> ...




Thank you. Understood. One last question.. Is not Sunrise and Horizon OTL tube amp like Valhalla2?


----------



## skyline315

decommo said:


> Thank you. Understood. One last question.. Is not Sunrise and Horizon OTL tube amp like Valhalla2?


 
  
 I think so, but I haven't heard either of them.  I try to keep my recommendations limited to things I've owned/heard extensively.


----------



## RedBull

skyline315 said:


> Don't dismiss the Ember.  The HD600 sounds fantastic with it when paired with a 6N6P tube.
> 
> Honestly, though, if you feel you're going to be using the 600 for a long time, I'd recommend the Valhalla 2.  If you think your headphone stable might fluctuate a bit, then the Ember gives you better versatility.


 
  
 I heard Valhalla 2, although OTL is generally better for 300 ohm Sennheiser, you also need to love sound signature it brings.
  
 In my opinion, with HD800, V2 sounds too clean, vocal is a little bit too distant to my taste, treble splash a little too much at times.
 Sorry, haven't heard V2 with HD600, maybe it sounds better, I don't know.
 Don't ask me about the tubes used, I just listen to what on the table 
 Maybe different tubes can fixed it?  maybe it is just what you are looking for?
  
 On the other hand, Ember sounds just perfect to my ears, perfect amount of warmth in the mids, not too much not to little, not recessed at all.  Vocal is so clear and pleasant.
 For me, I still prefer Ember than V2 although Ember is not OTL.
  
 My point is, I think, also need to consider the signature that the amp delivers than just the topology.


----------



## skyline315

redbull said:


> I heard Valhalla 2, although OTL is generally better for 300 ohm Sennheiser, you also need to love sound signature it brings.
> 
> In my opinion, with HD800, V2 sounds too clean, vocal is a little bit too distant to my taste, treble splash a little too much at times.
> 
> My point is, I think, also need to consider the signature that the amp delivers than just the topology.


 
 You're right...the Valhalla 2 is not by any means your traditional warm tube amp.  Within the world of tube amps, it leans towards a more lean and clinical presentation.  In my opinion, the HD600 and HD650 both benefit from this.  The 650 especially.
  
 Though, again, I'm not tossing the Ember under the bus here.  It does just fine with the HD lineup.


----------



## amigastar

Hello,
  
 got another question guys
 .
 What does the output resistance do? There is to choose from 0.1 ohm, 35 and 120. What exactly does happen when i change it from mid to low or high?
 As far as i've understood high gives a more tubey (warm, rounded?) sound,right? And low a solid state one.


----------



## DavidA

amigastar said:


> Hello,
> 
> got another question guys
> .
> What does the output resistance do? There is to choose from 0.1 ohm, 35 and 120. What exactly does happen when i change it from mid to low or high?


 
 Change the output resistance to better match your headphone: for the HD-650 @300 ohms use either the 35 or 120 setting, for most planar that have 35 to 70 ohm ratings use the 0.1 or 35 setting.  There is no hard set rule, just go with what sounds good to you


----------



## RedBull

Right, depends on then sound you like. I change the settings depending on the recording also. 
For good recording I use low impedance cos it's more detail and more lean. For not so good recording, higher impedance setting is more forgiving.


----------



## iancraig10

Some headphones are affected more than others by the output impedance.

A higher output impedance can slightly raise the bass of some headphones.

I got a surprise from Grados when I raised it to 120 ohms. Shouldn't really be that high for low impedance headphones but they sounded quite a bit more mellow to me.

Generally, I use 0.1 unless I want to hear a warmer sound. It doesn't work for all headphones though.


----------



## DavidA

iancraig10 said:


> Some headphones are affected more than others by the output impedance.
> 
> A higher output impedance can slightly raise the bass of some headphones.
> 
> ...


 

 Tried my modded SR-225e on the Ember at 120ohms, it does mellow the Grado sound a lot, maybe a little too much.


----------



## iancraig10

Turn it up!!!! 

You'll get the feeling that it has more bass hopefully.


----------



## DavidA

iancraig10 said:


> Turn it up!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It actually has too much bass since I added the dynamat and sorbothane in the cups, its a much better sound on the 0.1 setting.


----------



## amigastar

I can definitely say that High Output (120 ohm) mellows my Akg K501 (which i have to use atm) out.
 The sound is warmer for sure.
 Can i change the Output impedance while having the Ember 2.0 running or should i turn it off while changing?


----------



## DecentLevi

Yes myself and others have been able to change all adjustable parameters of the Ember without turning it off


----------



## iancraig10

amigastar said:


> I can definitely say that High Output (120 ohm) mellows my Akg K501 (which i have to use atm) out.
> The sound is warmer for sure.
> Can i change the Output impedance while having the Ember 2.0 running or should i turn it off while changing?




Oh yes, I forgot about the AKG's. They do indeed get slightly warmed up.

That's actually why Solderdude put the feature onto the amps along with the gain options. A subtle bass boost!!


----------



## RedBull

That's the beauty of Ember, able to compensate to many headphone sound signature when necessary, like having multiple amps at the same time.

And don't forget, you still have gain settings at the back! This is useful to help boost weak source signal, of course.


----------



## Solrighal

decentlevi said:


> Yes myself and others have been able to change all adjustable parameters of the Ember without turning it off


 
  
 I would avoid fiddling about with the output capacitor bypass jumpers while the amp is powered up if I were you.


----------



## HOWIE13

My earlier version of Ember doesn't have settings to increase gain or output capacitor bypass jumpers.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I can check my version of Ember tomorrow, it's about 1-2 years old.


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> Some headphones are affected more than others by the output impedance.
> 
> A higher output impedance can slightly raise the bass of some headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree, particularly with the HD600/650 which, a bit surprisingly in the case of the HD650, do seem to benefit from a higher output impedance.
  
 However, with many cans the increased warmth in the bass is not very good bass, being muddy, and worsens the sound.
  
 Trial and error really.


----------



## iancraig10

Due to poorer damping?

If that is the case, then there is always the middle setting.


----------



## ericr

The higher impedance settings can be helpful for full size headphones. Especially those with dynamic drivers it can tame the high end (the highest setting almost made the Beyer T90 tolerable).

However with most all IEMS, the bass will be loose or even bloated unless run at the lowest impedance setting.


----------



## ericr

solrighal said:


> I would avoid fiddling about with the output capacitor bypass jumpers while the amp is powered up if I were you.




Jeremey did give the OK to do this, so it's not a problem for the amp.

I notice a pop or click though, so I either turn the volume all the way down or power off first.


----------



## iancraig10

ericr said:


> The higher impedance settings can be helpful for full size headphones. Especially those with dynamic drivers it can tame the high end (the highest setting almost made the Beyer T90 tolerable).
> 
> However with most all IEMS, the bass will be loose or even bloated unless run at the lowest impedance setting.




I can't see why anyone would want to use an Ember with iem's if I'm honest. The gain is probably too much and although it's a hybrid, tubes are happier with higher impedance headphones in any case. The noise floor might also be noticeable with an iem.

Seems a bit too 'belts and braces' approach to be using a hybrid tube amp with an iem.

Even a Denon D2000 seems a bit low for it really to me. I tend to avoid the Ember with it actually and use something else.


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> Due to poorer damping?
> 
> If that is the case, then there is always the middle setting.


 
 Yeah damping probably is the issue.
 I must confess I thought the ability to vary the output impedance was more to do with the 'times 8' damping formula than as a deliberate method of fine tuning the bass of all types of headphones, irrespective of impedance.
 I suppose it comes down to the same thing though- trust your ears!


----------



## HOWIE13

ericr said:


> Jeremey did give the OK to do this, so it's not a problem for the amp.
> 
> I notice a pop or click though, so I either turn the volume all the way down or power off first.


 
 It's a horrid, quite loud scratchy noise too. Can't be much good for the ears.


----------



## iancraig10

howie13 said:


> Yeah damping probably is the issue.
> I must confess I thought the ability to vary the output impedance was more to do with the 'times 8' damping formula than as a deliberate method of fine tuning the bass of all types of headphones, irrespective of impedance.
> I suppose it comes down to the same thing though- trust your ears!




Solderdude meant it to be more like a bass 'honing' facility. Some headphones react more to it than others.

120 ohms output impedance used to be the norm years back but modern designs tend to get as close to zero as possible.

I think you are right. Instead of just believing an 8x theory, it is in fact better to let your ears judge. If it sounds good, then that's fine.


----------



## RedBull

howie13 said:


> My earlier version of Ember doesn't have settings to increase gain or output capacitor bypass jumpers.  :confused_face(1):
> 
> I can check my version of Ember tomorrow, it's about 1-2 years old.




Wow, that has to be the very original Ember.


----------



## HOWIE13

redbull said:


> Wow, that has to be the very original Ember.


 
 It probably was- I'm very old too


----------



## RedBull

I also not young


----------



## DavidA

My Ember is about 2 years old (pretty sure its the original) but it has the caps by-pass and input gain jumpers.  Had to install supercharger later


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> My Ember is about 2 years old (pretty sure its the original) but it has the caps by-pass and input gain jumpers.  Had to install supercharger later


 
 yes mine has caps bypass but it's on the input not output, and at the back it appears to be an 'attenuation' jumper rather than a 'gain' jumper.
  
 So it doesn't increase the gain if the signal is low, it lowers the signal if the input is high so as to afford more use of the vol pot. At least that's always been my understanding.


----------



## RedBull

Mine 'gain' setting is also jumper. I always have enough gain with jumper in low setting. If the input is low, I use High gain. 
That's my understanding.
Or maybe we talk about the same thing but different perspective?


----------



## HOWIE13

redbull said:


> Mine 'gain' setting is also jumper. I always have enough gain with jumper in low setting. If the input is low, I use High gain.
> That's my understanding.
> Or maybe we talk about the same thing but different perspective?


 
 Yes we are saying the same thing really. I'm a bit drugged up with pain killers for a twisted back just now so apologies if I'm not thinking straight.
 At least my hearing is not affected.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Yes we are saying the same thing really. I'm a bit drugged up with pain killers for a twisted back just now so apologies if I'm not thinking straight.
> At least my hearing is not affected.


 
  
 Sorry to hear that mate, I genuinely feel your pain having been there more than once. Top Tip - get your Doc to prescribe Tramadol & your hearing will astonish you.


----------



## iancraig10

howie13 said:


> Yes we are saying the same thing really. I'm a bit drugged up with pain killers for a twisted back just now so apologies if I'm not thinking straight.
> At least my hearing is not affected.




Loadsa rest......

Don't rush back to athletics!!!


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Sorry to hear that mate, I genuinely feel your pain having been there more than once. Top Tip - get your Doc to prescribe Tramadol & your hearing will astonish you.


 
 Thanks, Gordon. Actually I tried Tramadol and I felt really weird but they did work for a short period.


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> Loadsa rest......
> 
> Don't rush back to athletics!!!


 




 I'll wait a few weeks Ian.


----------



## ericr

iancraig10 said:


> *I can't see why* anyone would want to use an Ember with iem's if I'm honest. The gain is *probably * too much and although it's a hybrid, tubes are happier with higher impedance headphones in any case. The noise floor *might* also be noticeable with an iem.
> 
> Seems a bit too 'belts and braces' approach to be using a hybrid tube amp with an iem.
> 
> Even a Denon D2000 seems a bit low for it really to me. I tend to avoid the Ember with it actually and use something else.




An inquiry would be preferred over an assumption filled rant.

-Eric


----------



## ericr

howie13 said:


> It's a horrid, quite loud scratchy noise too. Can't be much good for the ears.




Or alternatively, take the headphones off for a second while changing the jumper.


----------



## HOWIE13

ericr said:


> Or alternatively, take the headphones off for a second while changing the jumper.


 
 I'm a bit lazy once my headphones are all cozy on my ears and usually just pull the connector out while changing the jumper.


----------



## iancraig10

ericr said:


> An inquiry would be preferred over an assumption filled rant.
> 
> -Eric




That's not a rant. I really don't see why. Most iem's are 16 ohms and very sensitive.

There's not much point in using an iem in a home set up IMO. Even the lead is a bit short normally.

No rant was intended, it was a genuine statement. I can't see why.

I used the words PROBABLY and MIGHT because I have an Ember and Polaris here and was implying that it WILL. I should have written WILL because I tried it after you wrote it here on mine.

The gain is too high and I noticed the noise floor. There were no assumptions at all. I tried it.


----------



## dpump

I have an Ember V1. The V1 has a fairly high gain and often you can't use much of the volume control range. You have a lot of volume with very little movement of the volume control. If you want to reduce the gain on the V1 you have to desolder and change 2 resistors. Contact Jeremy at Garage1217 and he can advise you what to change and the value and he can sell you the parts. Or you can send your amp to him. I purchased the resistors from Jeremy and replaced mine.
  
 The gain issue on the V1 was one of the things that was changed in the V2. The V2 has a module you can unplug and replace to lower the gain. Again Jeremy can advise and sell you a module. You want need to unsolder anything or send the amp in. I haven't tried iem's on my V1 but have read that some iem's will work on any of the Embers if the gain is lowered enough. With a V2 you could even switch modules to match your phones or your source output if you wanted.


----------



## iancraig10

Iem's do work, yes.

Higher impedance is more advisable with the Ember though. 

Mine is also a V1. In fact, it's one of the first made by Solderdude, not Garage Amps. He sent it to me for a listen before they went out so mine is also high powered.

It was because of the problem of noise with lower impedances that the option was added to the V2 but it's not really so crucial to use an amp with an iem.


----------



## RedBull

howie13 said:


> Yes we are saying the same thing really. I'm a bit drugged up with pain killers for a twisted back just now so apologies if I'm not thinking straight.
> At least my hearing is not affected.




I understand that, Ember sounds nice even without touching those jumpers


----------



## RedBull

Yup, IEM works with Ember V1 (mine) but it's better to use lower gain, quite tubes like 12au7. Definitely not 12ax7!


----------



## SuperU

ericr said:


> An inquiry would be preferred over an assumption filled rant.
> 
> -Eric


 
 +100


----------



## iancraig10

superu said:


> +100




 seriously? That was not a rant, believe me!!!



redbull said:


> Yup, IEM works with Ember V1 (mine) but it's better to use lower gain, quite tubes like 12au7. Definitely not 12ax7!




I agree, different tubes create a different noise floor. I could still hear it with the D2000 and TH900 which was a pain. I was wanting the Ember to warm the Fostex a fraction but didn't like having that slight hiss there.


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> seriously? That was not a rant, believe me!!!
> I agree, different tubes create a different noise floor. I could still hear it with the D2000 and TH900 which was a pain. I was wanting the Ember to warm the Fostex a fraction but didn't like having that slight hiss there.


 
 Does the latest iteration of Ember have an additional setting for an output resistor, or something, which is supposed to reduce hiss of higher gain tubes?
 Don't know if that would help any in this situation.


----------



## RedBull

iancraig10 said:


> seriously? That was not a rant, believe me!!!
> I agree, different tubes create a different noise floor. I could still hear it with the D2000 and TH900 which was a pain. I was wanting the Ember to warm the Fostex a fraction but didn't like having that slight hiss there.




Hmm, I thought I couldn't hear any hiss with my sensitive SE530 IEM, low impedance MA900, ATH-AD2000. But of course I never hear Ember with D2000 and TH900.

Do you also hear hiss with 6SN7 tube?


----------



## iancraig10

I was getting it with an Orange Globe, but I guess it is really dependent on the tube more than anything. The Ember is slightly noisier than the Polaris and if anything, if someone wanted to use an Iem or very low impedance headphone, I think I'd go to the Polaris which has a good set of gain options and produces less noise,

Don't get me wrong, the hiss isn't in yer face type hiss. It's low level but I also have bat's hearing for high sounds too.

If you want to spot hiss, a very quiet room and just plug/unplug while listening and you might be aware of it. 

These days, I stick much more with the Polaris because of that and also the nature of tubes can be erratic.

In the end, my Globe tube started to become ultra sensitive to taps on the body of the amp and it became very noisy because it was on its last legs. I switched it for something else - I think just a plain Jan Philips which was better as far as noise goes.

I don't tend to play around too much with tubes. You can too easily become obsessed by them!!!!!


----------



## DavidA

iancraig10 said:


> I was getting it with an Orange Globe, but I guess it is really dependent on the tube more than anything. The Ember is slightly noisier than the Polaris and if anything, if someone wanted to use an Iem or very low impedance headphone, I think I'd go to the Polaris which has a good set of gain options and produces less noise,
> 
> Don't get me wrong, the hiss isn't in yer face type hiss. It's low level but I also have bat's hearing for high sounds too.
> 
> ...


 

 I think the hiss is a large degree caused by the tubes used, most 12AX7 I've tried have a slight hiss but only when I turn up the volume to pain levels.  Most of my 12AU7 don't seem to have any hiss to me and my GF who has much better hearing says she doesn't notice any hiss either.


----------



## iancraig10

Maybe I'll try some other tubes then. I wanted the Ember to warm up my th900 but for me, the hiss put me off. Trouble is, over the years, my ears have learned to tune in to hiss and buzzes by habit because of my old job.

Now I'm retired, the habit has stayed with me. 

The V2 was altered partly because of low Impedance headphone use. They seem to be getting lower and lower each year!!! (and more sensitive)

One of the reasons that I like the Polaris so much is that it has a lower noise floor While retaining a slight element of tube sound so that it helps to warm up the Fostex for me.


----------



## iancraig10

howie13 said:


> Does the latest iteration of Ember have an additional setting for an output resistor, or something, which is supposed to reduce hiss of higher gain tubes?
> Don't know if that would help any in this situation.




You know Howard, you're right. It does. Quite a few on DIYAH were reporting noise so Frans did offer some kind of 'fix' for it. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable adjusting the gain for iem's though TBH.

He's working on a Kameleon filter for them now. That'll be fun.


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> You know Howard, you're right. It does. Quite a few on DIYAH were reporting noise so Frans did offer some kind of 'fix' for it. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable adjusting the gain for iem's though TBH.
> 
> He's working on a Kameleon filter for them now. That'll be fun.


 
 Well, like you I do get hiss with some lower impedance headphones with Ember. Depends on the tubes- more gain, more hiss, but there are ample configurations with Ember to achieve a hiss free environment.
 I find some cans are also more prone to hiss than others. HD600/650, X1/2 and HE400 no hiss - HP100 and SRH840 need to be more careful with tube matching but it's not a big deal, plenty choices with Ember.
 The cords of my IEM'S are too short to use with my home set-up anyway so don't use them except with portable stuff.


----------



## ericr

iancraig10 said:


> seriously? That was not a rant, believe me!!!




OK, I believe.

And I agree with you that hiss sucks - can't tolerate it either. If I wasn't able to work out the hiss issues when using IEMs (see the replies others have made) the Ember would be long gone.


Out of several answers as to why I use the Ember, the best two would probably be:

- Output impedance of .1 Ohms (one tenth Ohm)
Very few amps offer an output impedance this low. As you stated, the impedance of IEMs is very low and seemingly going lower. As I stated in the post you originally replied to, proper bass control of these very low impedance IEMs requires an even lower impedance amp. 

- The Ember (with the correct tube and settings) sounds phenomenal with these newer multi-BA (balanced armature) IEMs.
I wish I could give you a detailed technical answer as to why, but TBH I can't. But once the Ember arrived my Schiit Asgard II sat in the box cold. In multiple places I've read the impedance of BA drivers will swing quite signicantly across the frequency spectrum - and I suspect this is where the Ember shines. That due to it's ultra low output impedance and maybe it's significant power reserves, it expresses authority over (it doesn't get pushed around) by the impedance swings of 12 BA drivers (4 each, high, mid & low) of my 64 Audio A12 or the 10 driver Noble K10.


"There's not much point in using an iem in a home set up IMO. Even the lead is a bit short normally"

It appears you may be a bit out of touch with the capability (and comfort/convenience) of the latest IEM/CIEM offerings. At local meets I regularly try full size headphones (including modded HD-800) and am rarely left wanting. (though I'll admit the HE-1000 on a Decware amp via a Theta DAC was a very excellent combination to listen to). Just last month I sold my HE-560 since they rarely saw the light of day after having them for over a year. I've also bought and sold the Beyer T90 and T1 since the Ember arrived. I just much prefer my A12 IEMs. And with the ADEL Technology in the A12 that preference includes soundstage (yes an IEM can now have a very real, open and natural soundstage/imaging/placement vs.the down-the-ear-canals sound of the past).

I agree with you on the cable length of most IEMs! Thankfully the option for a 64" cable was only a few dollars more. And as with full sized headphones there is a healthy aftermarket cable offering which allows you to go as long as desired.

After falling in love with the Ember in my home rig I wanted to replicate the experience at work. As this was just as the Polaris was released I ordered it instead. It was really nice, came close, oh so close, but it didn't have 100% of the tube goodness of the Ember. Within a couple of months the Polaris was sold and now I own two Embers that I only use with IEMs.

Since then I've acquired the Garage1217 6SN7 adapter and several Sylvania 6SN7W tubes and have fallen for the Ember (and the 64 Audio A12) once again.

All of the above is "according my ears".

Cheers!

-Eric


----------



## DavidA

A little off topic but it still involves the Ember, I see the appeal of IEM's but I'm one that just can't stand them in my ear, I've tried a few and after a few minutes I feel like a snake is trying to go down my ear.  But for the short period that I was able to listen with them they are quite good sounding.
  
 The Ember is/was a great amp to start this journey, it was able to match/pair up with almost any headphone that I wanted to try, and with its ability to adjust settings on the fly it made me more aware of little changes from various tubes and impedance settings.


----------



## iancraig10

ericr said:


> OK, I believe.
> 
> And I agree with you that hiss sucks - can't tolerate it either. If I wasn't able to work out the hiss issues when using IEMs (see the replies others have made) the Ember would be long gone.
> 
> ...




I fully understand the Ember sound that you like Eric. I got a similar feeling believe it or not with the old Little Dot II but build wasn't as good and mine actually did a fireworks display in the front room. I was frightened to touch it or even move!!! When it finished, it went straight into the bin.

My Ember is a proto since I know Solderdude and he sent it to me for a good listen. I mentioned noise to him then but by that time, the V1 was on its way as far as marketing goes. It's likely that the V2 is better in that regard. I also mentioned the gain being very high and had replaced the vol pot with a bigger (gold!!! knob which gave me a little more refinement in adjustments.

The Ember is a real beauty. I have found it quite funny how many people have become Schitt guys or Garage Guys!! I keep the Ember for higher impedance headphones and the Polaris for lower.

The iem thing is unusual for home use perhaps? For me it's the comfort thing and I never really feel right with plugs in my ears. I use a Fiio/Dunu iem with comply tips which is ok. I also use a Senn ie8, but have never considered using them at home with an amp TBH.

I might well be out of touch with iem since I recently watched Lachlan and his exploits with an iem in Hong Kong. I like Lachlan on Lachlan likes a Thing  because he doesn't get himself into an 'I love this corner and I know I'm right'. He generally has a very balanced view and his video on the iem that he was buying got me very interested.

I generally use an iem for convenience and at one time, for working with in live performance. I have custom tips on the Senns which make them at least comfortable for a couple of hours for feedback from consoles.

I am curious how an amp would improve them other than put a tube 'colour' into the sound, which I can fully understand. Certainly, power wise the iem must be a doddle to drive. So dynamic range is probably pretty much ok without an amp really. I see though, that you have some really posh ones, so perhaps there might be some difference on the end of an amp. The Ember has a ton of power for an iem though.

I use the Ember to smooth off my AKG K712 but with the K553 and th900 which has very low impedance, I can detect hiss. Perhaps it's time for me to get a V2?

It's not just the Ember. I can hear hiss from other amps too sometimes, but I am extremely sensitive to hiss and buzz. If I ask my wife, the can't hear it. Sometimes I've wondered whether I have tinnitus or something, but plugging in and out reveals it plainly to me. (In a quiet room)

So it's not meant as a criticism of the Ember. It's quite common with other amps too. The answer for me is simple ... Go to a higher impedance headphone. I get hiss from a Fiio Mont Blanc, the e12 but not from the e12a which is quieter. Many don't seem to notice.

Maybe I should try my ie8 with an amp then? 

Truly, I wasn't trying to be funny. I really can't see why other than perhaps you like the tonality of the Ember?


----------



## iancraig10

davida said:


> A little off topic but it still involves the Ember, I see the appeal of IEM's but I'm one that just can't stand them in my ear, I've tried a few and after a few minutes I feel like a snake is trying to go down my ear.  But for the short period that I was able to listen with them they are quite good sounding.
> 
> The Ember is/was a great amp to start this journey, it was able to match/pair up with almost any headphone that I wanted to try, and with its ability to adjust settings on the fly it made me more aware of little changes from various tubes and impedance settings.




That's the problem that I have David. Iem's are a convenience and I wouldn't choose to sit in an armchair with one. 

Having said that, there is another issue....

I'll be going to the USA in a few weeks and the heat makes headphones a bit hot sometimes. At least with my Senns, my ears will get air! 

That's something that us UK people don't need to think about so much.


----------



## DavidA

iancraig10 said:


> That's the problem that I have David. Iem's are a convenience and I wouldn't choose to sit in an armchair with one.
> 
> Having said that, there is another issue....
> 
> ...


 
 Living in Hawaii its not as hot as some areas but since I live right next to the Alawai canal the humidity is quite high most of the time so I understand the feeling of headphones getting hot.  That's one of the reasons I don't use my MDR-1A outside at all, its super comfortable but it gets hot in a few minutes, best I've found for outside are Momentum on-ear, SennGrado or the HD-700, all three stay pretty cool, even on a hot sunny day.


----------



## HOWIE13

I have a hum problem with Vali 2 on high gain with most tubes and headphones that most other people don't hear. 
 It's definitely present, and messing around with earth wires doesn't get rid of it. I don't think it's a fault because a few other posters hear it and the music sounds very good.
 Idiosyncrasies of individual ears must be contributing to the background noises some can hear and others can't.


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> Living in Hawaii its not as hot as some areas but since I live right next to the Alawai canal the humidity is quite high most of the time so I understand the feeling of headphones getting hot.  That's one of the reasons I don't use my MDR-1A outside at all, its super comfortable but it gets hot in a few minutes, best I've found for outside are Momentum on-ear, SennGrado or the HD-700, all three stay pretty cool, even on a hot sunny day.


 
 Certainly no problems with overheating in Scotland!


----------



## RedBull

I will try with my IE8 and 6SN7 if I can detect any hiss.
  
 What DAC do you use Ian?


----------



## iancraig10

howie13 said:


> I have a hum problem with Vali 2 on high gain with most tubes and headphones that most other people don't hear.
> It's definitely present, and messing around with earth wires doesn't get rid of it. I don't think it's a fault because a few other posters hear it and the music sounds very good.
> Idiosyncrasies of individual ears must be contributing to the background noises some can hear and others can't.




I think some are more sensitive to noise than others Howard. Once I detect any electrical noise, then generally, I don't use the gear again. Unless I can cure it......

The heat problem isn't bad in the South. Sometimes, outside in the summer requires a lighter headphone on the ears. Florida, I think will be terrible. The last time I was there it was 45c and I was literally staggering and wouldn't have had the strength to put a headphone on!! It was ridiculous. Worse, I had to play, so I did, in my undies!!!!

I might have been really thankful for an iem then....


----------



## HOWIE13

iancraig10 said:


> I think some are more sensitive to noise than others Howard. Once I detect any electrical noise, then generally, I don't use the gear again. Unless I can cure it......
> 
> The heat problem isn't bad in the South. Sometimes, outside in the summer requires a lighter headphone on the ears. Florida, I think will be terrible. The last time I was there it was 45c and I was literally staggering and wouldn't have had the strength to put a headphone on!! It was ridiculous. Worse, I had to play, so I did, in my undies!!!!
> 
> I might have been really thankful for an iem then....


 
 Yes Florida is very humid.
 I remember years ago I attended a conference in Orlando and for 4 days I couldn't leave the hotel until the late afternoon thunderstorm when it cooled down and became bearable.


----------



## SuperU

ericr said:


> OK, I believe.
> 
> And I agree with you that hiss sucks - can't tolerate it either. If I wasn't able to work out the hiss issues when using IEMs (see the replies others have made) the Ember would be long gone.
> 
> ...


 
 I enjoyed your post.
  
 And I think I too must be out of touch with IEM's today. My last purchase was about 8 years ago. LOL
  
 Can you recommend a couple of the type like you are mentioning?
  
 The cans I use with my Ember are LCD-X and love them. So if there are any IEM's that can give me as good of sound, I would be interested.
  
 Thanks


----------



## iancraig10

Actually I enjoyed it too. I'm also very curious about modern iem's now!! The ones that Eric mentioned aren't yer everyday iem either for sure.


----------



## ericr

It's kind of funny. Several of you guys don't like the feel of an IEM, and then I don't tolerate big headphones well at all. Never cared for hats either. 

It's nice we have many great sounding products to choose from.


----------



## ericr

iancraig10 said:


> I fully understand the Ember sound that you like Eric. I got a similar feeling believe it or not with the old Little Dot II but build wasn't as good and mine actually did a fireworks display in the front room. I was frightened to touch it or even move!!! When it finished, it went straight into the bin.
> 
> My Ember is a proto since I know Solderdude and he sent it to me for a good listen. I mentioned noise to him then but by that time, the V1 was on its way as far as marketing goes. It's likely that the V2 is better in that regard. I also mentioned the gain being very high and had replaced the vol pot with a bigger (gold!!! knob which gave me a little more refinement in adjustments.
> 
> ...




Both of my Embers are V1 with the Supercharger. Yes, initially there was hiss and so as @dpump mentioned above, Jeremey fixed this by changing out 2 resistors near the gain jumpers. It took a few trips of the Ember back and forth to Arizona to get the resistor values right and so I like to think I had some influence on the resistor packs Jeremy offers on the Polaris and Ember II. And as also mentioned up-to read you ll need to avoid the higher MU tubes such as 12AX7 and even the 12AT7. Since you seem to own some lower impedance headphones the resistor mod is something to seriously consider. One nice thing is it doesn't affect the high gain setting so it won't hamper the ability to drive power hungry or high impedance h3adphones. 

Yes, if you have a low gain tubes such as a 12AU7, 12BH7 or 6SN7 it might really be worthwhile to take your ie80 for a spin with your Ember. IIRC, the IE80 is a dynamic driver and I'm more familiar with BA drivers, but there is a fair chance the Ember will do good things for the bass.


----------



## iancraig10

ericr said:


> It's kind of funny. Several of you guys don't like the feel of an IEM, and then I don't tolerate big headphones well at all. Never cared for hats either.
> 
> It's nice we have many great sounding products to choose from.




Never thought of that!!! For me, it's the way that iem's push outwards on the inside your ears, although with my custom Senns, I don't get that.

I might try my Senn with an amp I think....

I do remember that one of the things that I liked with the Ember and higher impedance headphones, that one thing that I loved was the 'authority' that it gave to my headphones. I noticed that you said the very same thing about iem's on an amp.

Another advantage is that the signal would be coming from a line out which might well actually reduce noise as long as the amp is a quiet running one.

The ie8 is ok. Not brilliant IMO. Bass heavy but at least it doesn't 'shriek' as many cheaper iem's do. Trouble is that here in the UK, there aren't really many places that we can go to hear headphones let alone iem's. In fact, I've never seen iem's on display for people to try. (Understandable I guess) so spending big money on a high end one is a bit of a gamble.

I've never even thought about using them as a home headphone, ever!!! Reasons being sound (on the whole) and imaging, but if the newer ones have improved it might be worth a go.

What have you got me into now?


----------



## ericr

superu said:


> I enjoyed your post.
> 
> And I think I too must be out of touch with IEM's today. My last purchase was about 8 years ago. LOL
> 
> ...




Unfortunately I've not yet heard the LCD-X (or the LCD-4) so it is hard for me to say for certain. There have been multiple opportunities to try the pre-fazor LCD-2 and am confident there are several IEMs able to best them.

First, as previously mentioned I'm partial to the 64 Audio line-up. They are the first to license the ADEL technology with to put it simply, changes an IEM to have qualities attributed to full sized open back 'phones (vs. closed bqck). Additionally, the ADEL technology eliminates the pressure/pounding typically associated with an IEM (I can listen to mine for hours on end.)

www.64audio.com
www.head-fi.org/t/739712/1964-ears-adel-iems

Just before 64 Audio released their ADEL products I was considering 5he K10 from Noble Audio.

www.head-fi.org/t/739712/1964-ears-adel-iems


A TOTL IEM shootout from a few months ago (part 2 coming soon).

www.head-fi.org/t/769843/fit-for-a-bat-flagship-iems-shootout-8-ct6e-7-h8p-6-jh13-5-k10-4-bd4-2-3-a12-2-w500-1-se5u


Hope that helps!

Eric


----------



## ericr

iancraig10 said:


> Actually I enjoyed it too. I'm also very curious about modern iem's now!! The ones that Eric mentioned aren't yer everyday iem either for sure.




It's cool that IEMS now rival full-sized headphones in sound quality. 

Unfortunately they can also rival full-sized headphones in price!


----------



## iancraig10

OMG. They are a helluva price!!!!!

I just tried my Senns with amps. Some hiss like snakes while others are quiet.

The Fiio e12a is quiet and the O2 is dead. The IFi Idsd is dead quiet but the Ifi Nano is terrible. The Polaris hisses even in low gain and the ember is a pit of snakes.

I guess one advantage of using an amp if it's quiet is the fact that you can then use the line out from DAP's, avoiding the vol pot, which can have an effect on sound. Certainly in the case of iPods. The vol out seems to lack deep bass which appears on line out into an external dac.

So if the amp is dead quiet, then theoretically, the noise floor can be lowered?

I'll give it a go with just my Senns.


----------



## Tuneslover

I understand that the Project Ember might exhibit some hiss with IEM's (tube dependent) but I'm assuming this is not the case with low or mid resistance headphones. Yes, No?


----------



## HOWIE13

tuneslover said:


> I understand that the Project Ember might exhibit some hiss with IEM's (tube dependent) but I'm assuming this is not the case with low or mid resistance headphones. Yes, No?


 
 Maybe with high gain 12AX7 and your SRH840; not likely with your HD598/650 and HE500, but it's tube dependent too. 
 Increasing output impedance usually gets rid of the hiss.


----------



## amigastar

Hello there,
  
 i have unfortunately an Issue with my Project Ember 2.0.
  
 when i use the volume knob sometimes my left channel scratches and then dies for a moment.
  
 Could it be the Tube? Tomorrow i change to an other Tube to see what causes this behaviour.
 I hope its only the Tube acting up, because Garage1217 is in america and I'm from Europe so repair would be cumbersome.


----------



## DavidA

amigastar said:


> Hello there,
> 
> i have unfortunately an Issue with my Project Ember 2.0.
> 
> ...


 
 did the problem go away with the new tube?


----------



## husafreak

I picked the 64 Audio U6 as my IEM earlier this year. It is amazing how good they sound but I am still a headphone guy if I'm at home. Rabbit is right though, you will spend more for equivalent sound quality from an IEM. Yeah you can put a pair in your pocket but the tech is pricey!


----------



## husafreak

I put my Ember II and Polaris out for audition at the SF Head Fi show today. The Ember was pretty popular but no one wanted to actually try different tubes or move the jumpers. So they all heard a 6SN7 and my TH-X00 settings. I thought for sure the amp and a tray full of tubes would get some attention but no one wanted to give it a go. Maybe they were afraid they would break something... Me, I like to tinker, so I was a bit disappointed. Everyone liked the amp just fine though.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Hello there,
> 
> i have unfortunately an Issue with my Project Ember 2.0.
> 
> ...


 
 That's annoying. If it's not the tube maybe a potentiometer problem. I'm sure Jeremy will sort it quickly under warranty but such a nuisance being without it even for a week or two.
 I had to return my Horizon when the Supercharger cooked itself. Jeremy was very fast but, of course, still takes a week to post from Scotland, unless you pay a lot of money to send by 48 hour delivery.
 If you do have to send it back make sure you mark on the Customs note that it's a _'return to seller for repair',_ otherwise it will get held up.
 Hope it's only the tube.


----------



## amigastar

davida said:


> did the problem go away with the new tube?


 
 I will see later this day, it's early in the morning where i am  I hope it's just the Tube.


----------



## DavidA

husafreak said:


> I put my Ember II and Polaris out for audition at the SF Head Fi show today. The Ember was pretty popular but no one wanted to actually try different tubes or move the jumpers. So they all heard a 6SN7 and my TH-X00 settings. I thought for sure the amp and a tray full of tubes would get some attention but no one wanted to give it a go. Maybe they were afraid they would break something... Me, I like to tinker, so I was a bit disappointed. Everyone liked the amp just fine though.


 
 That's one thing I like about auditioning stuff at my friends house, I can just do whatever I want to try without the fear of breaking something.   If I was one of those that were looking at your gear I wouldn't have tried to change tubes or settings without asking you first, or more like asking you to change the tube or settings.


----------



## amigastar

Ok, so i changed the tube and for now no dead left channel, scratchiness while adjusting volume is still there, will have to observe further though. Lets hope for the best and i keep updating.
  
 I mean even the manual says:
   
If input capacitor are bypassed, you will hear a scratching sound when adjusting the volume potentiometer

  
 I just can't remember if i bypassed them.


----------



## TraceStar

Even with the caps not bypassed some scratchiness might be there. This depends on tubes too. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## amigastar

tracestar said:


> Even with the caps not bypassed some scratchiness might be there. This depends on tubes too.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


 
 Thats true just set the jumpers different on the input capacitors and still scratchiness.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Thats true just set the jumpers different on the input capacitors and still scratchiness.


 
 Is there no difference to the scratchiness at all whether you have the input capacitors bypassed or not?


----------



## amigastar

Same amount of scratchiness.
 Honestly the scratchiness is driving me crazy. I wouldn't mind a little bit but it's rather loud, the only thing i can do is waiting for one of my channels to die, or hope that it's a normal behaviour.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Same amount of scratchiness.
> Honestly the scratchiness is driving me crazy. I wouldn't mind a little bit but it's rather loud, the only thing i can do is waiting for one of my channels to die, or hope that it's a normal behaviour.


 
 What tubes are you using?


----------



## DavidA

amigastar said:


> Same amount of scratchiness.
> Honestly the scratchiness is driving me crazy. I wouldn't mind a little bit but it's rather loud, the only thing i can do is waiting for one of my channels to die, or hope that it's a normal behaviour.


 
 This is not normal, if I by-pass the caps there is major scratchiness, if the caps are used then there is no scratchiness on my Ember.  I don't think its just the tube but who knows, see if you can get in touch with Garage 1217, Jeremy is great with help and might be able to help you without sending the unit back.


----------



## amigastar

So, my father took a look at the Ember and he also says its the Potentiometer, looks like this causes the scratchiness.
 What would be the best next steps? Clean it by myself or write Jeremy? I think i'm gonna contact jeremy.


----------



## DavidA

amigastar said:


> So, my father took a look at the Ember and he also says its the Potentiometer, looks like this causes the scratchiness.
> What would be the best next steps? Clean it by myself or write Jeremy?


 
 Write Jeremy, might be the safest/fastest way to resolve the problem.


----------



## amigastar

Thanks guys, you all been really helpful.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> So, my father took a look at the Ember and he also says its the Potentiometer, looks like this causes the scratchiness.
> What would be the best next steps? Clean it by myself or write Jeremy? I think i'm gonna contact jeremy.


 
 I can only echo what DavidA advises. Even 12AX7 tubes don't scratch with the input capacitors invoked in my Ember.
 Something seems wrong and I would contact Jeremy for advice.
 If you start doing things yourself you may invalidate the warranty.


----------



## RedBull

My Ember was more scrathier before when new than now. 
Now it's so soft I couldn't hear it most of the time.


----------



## Ralf Hutter

amigastar said:


> So, my father took a look at the Ember and he also says its the Potentiometer, looks like this causes the scratchiness.
> What would be the best next steps? Clean it by myself or write Jeremy? I think i'm gonna contact jeremy.




Why not try cleaning it by spraying/dribbling some contact cleaner down the shaft and rotating it back and forth for a bit?


----------



## Amish

I have no issues with scratchiness. lol Jeremy is a good guy. Contact him.
  
 I do not bypass the caps myself which though some feel is the purist mode; causes the scratchy sound.
  
  
 a little pic to share the love of Ember


----------



## ericr

amish said:


> I have no issues with scratchiness. lol Jeremy is a good guy. Contact him.
> 
> I do not bypass the caps myself which though some feel is the purist mode; causes the scratchy sound.
> 
> ...




MHDT Labs DAC + Project Ember! 

Pretty awesome combo, right?

Which MHDT do you have?

Sorry for being a bit off topic (but very much worth looking into).


----------



## DavidA

ericr said:


> MHDT Labs DAC + Project Ember!
> 
> Pretty awesome combo, right?
> 
> ...


 
 Its in his signature, a Pagoda


----------



## husafreak

Fader or potentiometer lubes are quite common and necessary in the pro audio world. So you could try that or replace the pot. Hopefully that is the problem, but you gotta start somewhere.


----------



## Sonic Defender

I'm curious if I can get a noticeable sound signature change with the Ember over say my iDSD Micro? I actually want a little tube sound to compliment my SS gear. I would be using the ONKYO A800, LCD 2F and a TH 600 so any advice/thoughts would be welcome.


----------



## DecentLevi

sonic defender said:


> I'm curious if I can get a noticeable sound signature change with the Ember over say my iDSD Micro? I actually want a little tube sound to compliment my SS gear. I would be using the ONKYO A800, LCD 2F and a TH 600 so any advice/thoughts would be welcome.


 
  
 I've tried the iDSD Micro several times, and owned the Ember for a year. I would say overall, the Ember would be a downgrade in overall refinement; the only benefit being able to customize the sound with a tube 'flavor' of choice
  
 A major tube amp upgrade from that would be the Zana Deux or Elise


----------



## Sonic Defender

decentlevi said:


> I've tried the iDSD Micro several times, and owned the Ember for a year. I would say overall, the Ember would be a downgrade in overall refinement; the only benefit being able to customize the sound with a tube 'flavor' of choice
> 
> A major tube amp upgrade from that would be the Zana Deux or Elise


 
 Thanks, and yes I do get that, but the tube flavor is what I'm after. The Elise does look intriguing, but the shipping would be killer expensive I'm sure.


----------



## DecentLevi

Elise shipping was only $68 and took about 10 days to the US anyway
  
 The Ember is faultless for what it is though, and good price/performance ratio


----------



## Sonic Defender

decentlevi said:


> Elise shipping was only $68 and took about 10 days to the US anyway
> 
> The Ember is faultless for what it is though, and good price/performance ratio


 
 Thanks, that is still a great deal of money, so it would likely be a little more to Canada, at least $100 in Canadian dollars which is way too much as I'm sure there are competitive products closer to home.


----------



## Tuneslover

sonic defender said:


> Thanks, that is still a great deal of money, so it would likely be a little more to Canada, at least $100 in Canadian dollars which is way too much as I'm sure there are competitive products closer to home.




...and then there's that miserable 30% exchange rate too.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Elise shipping was only $68 and took about 10 days to the US anyway
> 
> The Ember is faultless for what it is though, and good price/performance ratio


 
 Just out of interest when you purchase from N.America do you have to pay any additional taxes on top of the Polish VAT or are you exempt from Polish VAT and only pay American tax?


----------



## DecentLevi

I certaintly don't think I was charged any taxes, and shipping / customs was a breeze to the US.
  
 PS, check out my comparison of the three variants of Fostex TH-00 including a new prototype, and the Elise vs. LC, etc.:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/814762/massdrop-fostex-th-x00-ebony-impressions-thread/75#post_12754668


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> I certaintly don't think I was charged any taxes, and shipping / customs was a breeze to the US.
> 
> PS, check out my comparison of the three variants of Fostex TH-00 including a new prototype, and the Elise vs. LC, etc.:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/814762/massdrop-fostex-th-x00-ebony-impressions-thread/75#post_12754668


 
 That's great. That's saved you 21% of the cost then compared to if you lived in Europe.


----------



## RedBull

decentlevi said:


> A major tube amp upgrade from that would be the Zana Deux or Elise




Ember offer a different flavours than the Elise. I still like both equally.


----------



## Amish

I've owned and still own an assortment of amps and I always come back to the Ember. It is just a fantastic little amp that does everything well.
  
 I've pitted it against amps in the$300 to $1000 to $1600 range and came away thinking it does music just as well. I've been on a mission to find that amp that makes me put the Ember aside...still looking.
  
 Now if listening to my HD600 headphones then I do prefer my OTL amp. But that is only if using my HD600s.


----------



## Sonic Defender

amish said:


> I've owned and still own an assortment of amps and I always come back to the Ember. It is just a fantastic little amp that does everything well.
> 
> I've pitted it against amps in the$300 to $1000 to $1600 range and came away thinking it does music just as well. I've been on a mission to find that amp that makes me put the Ember aside...still looking.
> 
> Now if listening to my HD600 headphones then I do prefer my OTL amp. But that is only if using my HD600s.


 
 May I ask if the Ember has that tube sound to some extent? I have never owned a hybrid, and at this point I want a little tube euphonic, especially in the mids. I would be using it with an LCD 2F, ONKYO A800 (32ohm 100db sensitivity) and a TH 600. The only valve amp I owned was a first generation Valhalla so it has been a while.


----------



## HOWIE13

sonic defender said:


> May I ask if the Ember has that tube sound to some extent? I have never owned a hybrid, and at this point I want a little tube euphonic, especially in the mids. I would be using it with an LCD 2F, ONKYO A800 (32ohm 100db sensitivity) and a TH 600. The only valve amp I owned was a first generation Valhalla so it has been a while.


 
 If by tube euphony you mean a warm, clear, easy flowing, vinyl type of sound the answer for me is yes.
 It does depend on the tube and other settings and there are plenty to chose from.
 I achieved a 'tube sound' from my other G1217 amps, Vali2 and LD2/2 at cheaper cost, but none has the versatility of Ember.
  
 You could also consider Polaris, which although SS is tuned to have tube euphony.


----------



## Amish

sonic defender said:


> May I ask if the Ember has that tube sound to some extent? I have never owned a hybrid, and at this point I want a little tube euphonic, especially in the mids. I would be using it with an LCD 2F, ONKYO A800 (32ohm 100db sensitivity) and a TH 600. The only valve amp I owned was a first generation Valhalla so it has been a while.


 
  
 Without a doubt it does. The sound changes a lot depending on the tube and I have a lot of tubes for the Ember. I can't express enough how much you can change the sound of the Ember depending on the tube. It is a great hybrid amp for tube rolling.
  


howie13 said:


> If by tube euphony you mean a warm, clear, easy flowing, vinyl type of sound the answer for me is yes.
> It does depend on the tube and other settings and there are plenty to chose from.
> I achieved a 'tube sound' from my other G1217 amps, Vali2 and LD2/2 at cheaper cost, but none has the versatility of Ember.
> 
> You could also consider Polaris, which although SS is tuned to have tube euphony.


 
  
 I have to agree that the Polaris (which I also own) does sound a lot like the Ember (depending on the tube being used in the Ember at the time).


----------



## SuperU

redbull said:


> Ember offer a different flavours than the Elise. I still like both equally.


 
 That is really saying something as the Elise is FAR more expensive.
  
 I am loving my Ember 2 as well.


----------



## RedBull

Elise deliver different sound as Elise if fully tube amp, except the rectifier of course.  Bass is more rounder in Elise.
 On the other hand, bass in Ember is equally extended, but with flatter, faster response as expected from SS output stage influence.  Pick your poison!


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Elise deliver different sound as Elise if fully tube amp, except the rectifier of course.  Bass is more rounder in Elise.
> On the other hand, bass in Ember is equally extended, but with flatter, faster response as expected from SS output stage influence.  Pick your poison!


 
 Interesting comment about the Elise and Ember sound signature.  How does the Elise do with the LCD-2? or any planar that you might have tried it with?


----------



## RedBull

davida said:


> Interesting comment about the Elise and Ember sound signature.  How does the Elise do with the LCD-2? or any planar that you might have tried it with?


 
  
 Elise sounds good too with my LCD-2 r1, bass is as deep and punchy.  But due the weight and soundtage, I sheldom use my planar anymore.  Only once in awhile when I missed those liquid planar sound 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Off topics:
 Btw, I just ordered Koss ESP 950, waiting for delivery, yippe ...
 This hobby drains my wallet and my room space LOL.
  
 I just realized, paired with a very good DAC, BCL is a detail monster.  Watching movies yesterday, vocal texture is so very delicate (not thin or bright).  I am lovin it.


----------



## HOWIE13

@Amish
  
_'The sound changes a lot depending on the tube' _
  
 That's so true, and explains the difficulty I have trying to describe the sound of any particular tube amp. How can the sound of a tube amp be defined without reference to the tubes?


----------



## Amish

howie13 said:


> @Amish
> 
> _'The sound changes a lot depending on the tube' _
> 
> That's so true, and explains the difficulty I have trying to describe the sound of any particular tube amp. How can the sound of a tube amp be defined without reference to the tubes?


 

 haha yeah...it is a tuff one for sure.


----------



## ericr

Ember + Sylvania 6SN7W (metal or black base) FTW!

Wonderful euphonic tube sound with the speed and response of a solid state amp.


----------



## Sonic Defender

ericr said:


> Ember + Sylvania 6SN7W (metal or black base) FTW!
> 
> Wonderful euphonic tube sound with the speed and response of a solid state amp.


 
 What impedance are you using?


----------



## ericr

sonic defender said:


> What impedance are you using?




The low setting (,1 Ohms) mostly with my 64 Audio A12 IEMs. Just sold my HE-560, but with those I would use the middle impedance setting.


----------



## HOWIE13

I rarely move the jumpers off the lowest output impedance setting for any of my headphones.


----------



## Sonic Defender

I did opt for the La Figaro 339, but I still think an Ember 2 is in my future, just seems so darn flexible.


----------



## DavidA

ericr said:


> The low setting (,1 Ohms) mostly with my 64 Audio A12 IEMs. Just sold my HE-560, but with those I would use the middle impedance setting.


 
 For the HE-560 I also use the middle setting.
  


howie13 said:


> I rarely move the jumpers off the lowest output impedance setting for any of my headphones.


 
 For HD-600, 650, 800, DT-990 and T1 usually use the high setting, for HD-700, HE-400 and LCD-2f its the middle setting and all other headphones are on the low setting for me.


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> For the HE-560 I also use the middle setting.
> 
> For HD-600, 650, 800, DT-990 and T1 usually use the high setting, for HD-700, HE-400 and LCD-2f its the middle setting and all other headphones are on the low setting for me.


 
  
 I have all that first group except for the T1.
  
 I must experiment more with output impedances.(once I stop tube rolling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## DavidA

howie13 said:


> I have all that first group except for the T1.
> 
> I must experiment more with output impedances.(once I stop tube rolling
> 
> ...


 
 Stop kidding your self, you will actually stop rolling tubes? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , all kidding aside, changing the output impedance along with rolling tubes is a big part of the appeal the Ember has for me.  I think the Ember is one of the best starter amps to get since you can control variables (tubes and impedance) and listen to the changes in sound and I found it a great training aid.  If you can't hear the changes when rolling tubes or with different output impedance then you have reached your end game since improvements in sound above this level are even smaller most of the time IMO.


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> Stop kidding your self, you will actually stop rolling tubes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You are absolutely correct and I agree entirely about what you say about Ember being a great training aid.
  
 It's just laziness that's stopped me changing the output impedances. I'll stick a couple of my favourite tubes into Ember and give it a go.


----------



## Amish

I rarely roll tubes in the Ember. I mean once you have rolled as many as I have you just find something that works and stick to it. I admit that once in a blue moon I do toss in a bugle boy or Telefunken. Rare though.


----------



## HOWIE13

amish said:


> I rarely roll tubes in the Ember. I mean once you have rolled as many as I have you just find something that works and stick to it. I admit that once in a blue moon I do toss in a bugle boy or Telefunken. Rare though.


 
 It's nice when you eventually find an 'endgame' tube for your amplifier.


----------



## DavidA

amish said:


> I rarely roll tubes in the Ember. I mean once you have rolled as many as I have you just find something that works and stick to it. I admit that once in a blue moon I do toss in a bugle boy or Telefunken. Rare though.


 
 After getting so many tubes for my Ember, I've gotten to the point where I just change it once a month to another one and just enjoy from there for a month before putting in the next.


----------



## Amish

@DavidA That is one way to do it! Enjoy the roll!


----------



## husafreak

I use the low impedance setting. My TH-X00 and 64 Audio U6's are fine in the bass department so I generally prefer the low impedance setting, it just sounds clearer to me.


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> After getting so many tubes for my Ember, I've gotten to the point where I just change it once a month to another one and just enjoy from there for a month before putting in the next.


 
  
 That's what I do too. Now that I live in what many people think of as nirvana I just don't give a **** any more.


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> That's what I do too. Now that I live in what many people think of as nirvana I just don't give a **** any more.


 
 Hi Gordon,
 I've started to become like you, too much going around in circles with many of the threads.  I had to go back to the Big Island for a few day to check on my storage since my friend said that there might have been some damage due to the storm that passed by the other week and didn't spend any time on line, it was actually really nice but I did miss listening to music with my headphones and amps.  Also went fishing down at South Point, I think it was the first time my GF camped out with no comforts of home and she really enjoyed it, it was also the first time she had eaten fresh Hawaiian spiny loboster, kona slipper lobster, wild moi and opihi just picked.


----------



## Sonic Defender

Quote:


davida said:


> Hi Gordon,
> I've started to become like you, too much going around in circles with many of the threads.  I had to go back to the Big Island for a few day to check on my storage since my friend said that there might have been some damage due to the storm that passed by the other week and didn't spend any time on line, it was actually really nice but I did miss listening to music with my headphones and amps.  Also went fishing down at South Point, I think it was the first time my GF camped out with no comforts of home and she really enjoyed it, it was also the first time she had eaten fresh Hawaiian spiny loboster, kona slipper lobster, wild moi and opihi just picked.


 Hopefully there wasn't much damage mate. That must have been an amazing camping trip, and it sounds like the food was also excellent as always. Finally have the input tubes replaced in my 339 and I have to say, it sounds gorgeous, perhaps nicer than I had hoped for. I found a local HAM radio tube nut who has thousands of tubes (no real rare audiophile types sadly). I was sick of waiting for the mailed replacement tubes so he matched me a 1940s RCA set of 6J5Gs, tested at over 2400 each! Lucky score and he only asked $30 Canadian for the pair although I gave him $40 as he delivered them to my home the next morning. Talk about service, really nice older man.
  
 He bought up old military installations so even his testers are top of the line US military grade from back in the day so I know the testing is reliable. Here is a tube porn shot I just took (didn't turn out well):


----------



## DavidA

@Sonic Defender, not quite porn, R rated at best, lol.  Just kidding, the amp looks gorgeous 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, the Ember seems so tiny and cute looking compared to the 339
  
 No real damage but had to spend 2 days drying stuff out and in the storage container it was really hot and humid.
  
 The camping was great and the food was even better, fresh spiny lobster sashimi or steamed kona slipper lobster is hard to beat and Lily said that she can't go back to eating regular maine lobster anymore, said she finally understands why I never cared for lobster at restaurants.


----------



## Sonic Defender

davida said:


> @Sonic Defender, not quite porn, R rated at best, lol.  Just kidding, the amp looks gorgeous
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, if that was porn it would be nasty and ugly. There is nowhere I can take a decent picture (plus I only have my LG G3 camera). The Ember may be smaller, but apparently the sound and quality is huge so while we know size does count at times, not here. I'm still likely to grab an Ember. I would love to try fresh lobster, but I feel too guilty boiling something alive! Maybe after a few drinks I might feel differently. Still, that has to be a crapy way to go. The price of being tasty right?


----------



## SeeSax

Hi Folks, 
  
 Owned an Ember 2.1 for a few months now and absolutely love it. I did, however, pair it with the wrong DAC (I think) with the Parasound ZDac. I love the DAC on its own, but with the musical and smoothed details (especially treble) I feel that I am better off with as transparent a DAC as possible per the reviews of the Ember. 
  
 Long way of saying: what DAC do you guys recommend with this? Something with a Sabre32? I can spend $600ish or more if it will get me return on my investment, but for now is there anything in the $500-600 range that would make this combo really sing with BD T1s or HE-560s?
  
 Thank you!
  
 -Collin-


----------



## ericr

MHDT Labs Canary


----------



## Sonic Defender

iDSD Micro has a nice a lively DAC section. Not harsh, but certainly not warm, plus you get the flexibility of a preamp and pretty darn solid headphone amp all in one small footprint. Don't let size fool you, the Micro has earned a great deal of praise around head-fi for good reason. I'm sure there are many great options, but the Micro should be a contender and very, very difficult to beat for performance to value.


----------



## lugnut

seesax said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Owned an Ember 2.1 for a few months now and absolutely love it. I did, however, pair it with the wrong DAC (I think) with the Parasound ZDac. I love the DAC on its own, but with the musical and smoothed details (especially treble) I feel that I am better off with as transparent a DAC as possible per the reviews of the Ember.
> 
> ...


 
 What ever dac you do decide on, I would make sure it does not have it's own volume control on top of the Embers volume control. I see so many people on head-fi using two vol controls which in my humble opinion is not good. I come from the speaker world and the majority of folks would just never do this. I know that some say to turn one of them up 100% and use the second one to adjust with. I still don't think it makes for a good situation.


----------



## HOWIE13

lugnut said:


> What ever dac you do decide on, I would make sure it does not have it's own volume control on top of the Embers volume control. I see so many people on head-fi using two vol controls which in my humble opinion is not good. I come from the speaker world and the majority of folks would just never do this. I know that some say to turn one of them up 100% and use the second one to adjust with. I still don't think it makes for a good situation.


 
 I agree it makes sense to have as few connections and electronics as possible in the signal path. However, I do find the handset volume control of the M-DAC useful as it controls each channel separately, and so you can adjust for channel imbalance, which is not uncommon in Classical recordings.


----------



## SeeSax

ericr said:


> MHDT Labs Canary


 
  
 This looks really interesting, but I never thought to pair a tube DAC with a tube amp. Would you still suggest this for squeezing the most detail out of music since my Ember obviously softens it up a bit?


----------



## DavidA

seesax said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Owned an Ember 2.1 for a few months now and absolutely love it. I did, however, pair it with the wrong DAC (I think) with the Parasound ZDac. I love the DAC on its own, but with the musical and smoothed details (especially treble) I feel that I am better off with as transparent a DAC as possible per the reviews of the Ember.
> 
> ...


 
 My suggestion is the UD-301, a bit more dynamic than my Uber/MB Bifrost so paired with the Ember its a better match IMO.  But for the T1 I prefer it paired with the BH Crack and Bifrost Uber while I like the HE-560 is paired with Lyr2/Bifrost MB, the differences are very little but after a while with one or the other the differences become easier to notice.  Just remember that this is a sonic preference and not a better or worse issue.


----------



## SeeSax

davida said:


> My suggestion is the UD-301, a bit more dynamic than my Uber/MB Bifrost so paired with the Ember its a better match IMO.  But for the T1 I prefer it paired with the BH Crack and Bifrost Uber while I like the HE-560 is paired with Lyr2/Bifrost MB, the differences are very little but after a while with one or the other the differences become easier to notice.  Just remember that this is a sonic preference and not a better or worse issue.


 
  
 Thanks David, you are always super helpful. I ended up buying the Audio-GD NFB-1, but you can never have too many DACs right?


----------



## DavidA

seesax said:


> Thanks David, you are always super helpful. I ended up buying the Audio-GD NFB-1, but you can never have too many DACs right?


 
 Nice to have various DACs to listen to, its a great way to learn about the differences between DACs and what your personal preferences are.  Heard good things about AudioGD, I was looking at the Master 7 my self.


----------



## Sonic Defender

davida said:


> Heard good things about AudioGD, I was looking at the Master 7 my self.


 
 I almost pulled the trigger on a Master 7, but I ended up getting my M51. I still think the M7 would have been a fantastic DAC.


----------



## DavidA

sonic defender said:


> I almost pulled the trigger on a Master 7, but I ended up getting my M51. I still think the M7 would have been a fantastic DAC.


 
 Its up there with the Pagoda and Isabellina from what I heard so far.


----------



## Sonic Defender

davida said:


> Its up there with the Pagoda and Isabellina from what I heard so far.


 
 I am thinking my next DAC in about a year will be the Pagoda.


----------



## SeeSax

I just decided to use my Chord Mojo in "line out mode," into an AudioQuest 3.5mm to RCA cable and then into the Ember. WOW! For some reason it is obscenely loud, so I don't know if this line out mode is feeding in a much stronger signal than my other DACs, but it's blasting my eardrums out with the volume on the Ember at 9 o'clock with my HE-560 Planars. The power is insane. It sounds brighter than the ZDac and Bifrost did, but it's extremely detailed while still being very musical. Interesting set up. More testing to do on my end. 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## Amish

You can't go wrong with the Pagoda. It is by far the best DAC I have used to date and it will never leave my main stack. If this thing breaks I will just send it back to Mhdt Labs for repair.


----------



## Sonic Defender

amish said:


> You can't go wrong with the Pagoda. It is by far the best DAC I have used to date and it will never leave my main stack. If this thing breaks I will just send it back to Mhtd Labs for repair.


 
 Nice to know. I wish I didn't like the M51 so much or I would make the move now, but I really do like the NAD house sound.


----------



## Amish

Nothing wrong with NAD. As long as we enjoy what we have that is all that counts!


----------



## mikek200

Question,regarding tubes??
 I have a Ember amp ,that will be delivered next week,and will be using it with the dac portion of a Parasound ZD V.2,and my HD600's.
  
 I e-mailed Jeremy about using this tube,..Brimar 13D3 12AU7,and he replied,he was not familiar with this tube.
  
 Are there any other Ember owners,who are using this tube?,if so,are there any issues/problems?.
 Any help,replies would be greatly appreciated.
  
 I apologize for the thread interruption..
  
 Thanks,
 Mike


----------



## Amish

mikek200 said:


> Question,regarding tubes??
> I have a Ember amp ,that will be delivered next week,and will be using it with the dac portion of a Parasound ZD V.2,and my HD600's.
> 
> I e-mailed Jeremy about using this tube,..Brimar 13D3 12AU7,and he replied,he was not familiar with this tube.
> ...


 
 The Ember amp supports the 12AU7 ECC82 so I don't know why it wouldn't support that tube. I would have no doubts about it working.
  
 And congratz on the Ember amp! You will really enjoy it. Tube rolling is a lot of fun in this amp and you can really change the sound by swapping them out. Find yourself some cheap Amperex orange globes, maybe a vintage Telefunken etc. I really like the 12AX7 and 12AT7 myself.


----------



## mikek200

Thanks Amish,
  
 Yes,I've been tube rolling for many years now,and I have a fine collection of tubes,including the Orange Globe,and I just found out from SeeSax,that the dac on the paraZD,is also similar to the older Parasound dac,I used years ago{probably with a few updates?}
 I am a Mullard,Amperex,Brimar freak,,so,I have my work cut out for me-LOL...90% of my tubes are matched pairs,that I used on my Stax amp.
  
 If any guys on this thread need tubes,chances are ,I have it---SeeSax,has bought many ,some of my finest...so,shoot me a PM,with what you might need
  
 Thanks,
 Mike


----------



## HOWIE13

mikek200 said:


> Question,regarding tubes??
> I have a Ember amp ,that will be delivered next week,and will be using it with the dac portion of a Parasound ZD V.2,and my HD600's.
> 
> I e-mailed Jeremy about using this tube,..Brimar 13D3 12AU7,and he replied,he was not familiar with this tube.
> ...


 
  
 Brimar made good tubes. As Amish has said Ember supports 12AU7 tubes so there shouldn't be a problem. Whether the sound will be to your liking I don't know . What I can say is I have a Brimar ECC88 and it sounds very nice in Ember: sweet, quite warm but not syrupy, clear and neutral- very similar to my Mullards.
  
 I usually find 12V tubes to be a little warmer than 6V varieties-that could be just chance, and I think your Brimar will be a hit!


----------



## Tunkejazz

seesax said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Owned an Ember 2.1 for a few months now and absolutely love it. I did, however, pair it with the wrong DAC (I think) with the Parasound ZDac. I love the DAC on its own, but with the musical and smoothed details (especially treble) I feel that I am better off with as transparent a DAC as possible per the reviews of the Ember.
> 
> ...




I would not spend $600 on a dac to pair it with a $350 amp, but there are many opinions around here. I am using a ifi nano idsd and it sounds great with the Ember. The designer of the Ember has actually recomended something like a Modi.

But if you are set to use that budget, the Mdac cost around 600 and I doubt you can find a better dac for that price. John Westlake designed it which is quite a strong endorsement.


----------



## Sonic Defender

tunkejazz said:


> I would not spend $600 on a dac to pair it with a $350 amp, but there are many opinions around here. I am using a ifi nano idsd and it sounds great with the Ember. The designer of the Ember has actually recomended something like a Modi.
> 
> But if you are set to use that budget, the Mdac cost around 600 and I doubt you can find a better dac for that price. John Westlake designed it which is quite a strong endorsement.


 
 I had the Audiolab 8200CD which essentially had the same DAC design in it and it was very detailed sounding and it does sound like the OP wants that. I would surely go with an iFi product as well, love the iDSD Micro, great sounding DAC section.


----------



## RedBull

Good or bad, Ember scale up very well with better source. I used to use the very well regarded Audio gd nfb-2 DAC. When I swapped with Audio Gd Ref. 7.1, the difference is very obvious. 
Now I am reading Yggy.


----------



## SeeSax

tunkejazz said:


> I would not spend $600 on a dac to pair it with a $350 amp, but there are many opinions around here. I am using a ifi nano idsd and it sounds great with the Ember. The designer of the Ember has actually recomended something like a Modi.
> 
> But if you are set to use that budget, the Mdac cost around 600 and I doubt you can find a better dac for that price. John Westlake designed it which is quite a strong endorsement.


 
  
 Thanks for the suggestion on the M-Dac. I bought an Audio-GD NFB-1, but we will see how it goes. I'll keep the M-Dac in mind. Also, the amp might be $350, but I've collected some fantastic tubes for it thanks to Mike who posted above. I absolutely love it!
  


sonic defender said:


> I had the Audiolab 8200CD which essentially had the same DAC design in it and it was very detailed sounding and it does sound like the OP wants that. I would surely go with an iFi product as well, love the iDSD Micro, great sounding DAC section.


 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Sonic Defender

seesax said:


> Thanks for the suggestion on the M-Dac. I bought an Audio-GD NFB-1, but we will see how it goes. I'll keep the M-Dac in mind. Also, the amp might be $350, but I've collected some fantastic tubes for it thanks to Mike who posted above. I absolutely love it!
> 
> 
> Thanks!


 
 The Audio GD gear is solid so I'm sure you'll be pleased. Look forward to hearing your impressions of the combination.


----------



## Tunkejazz

redbull said:


> Good or bad, Ember scale up very well with better source. I used to use the very well regarded Audio gd nfb-2 DAC. When I swapped with Audio Gd Ref. 7.1, the difference is very obvious.
> Now I am reading Yggy.


 

 Sure, you have a point there and I agree with you!
  
 My point was that your will notice the difference with a better dac, but  I think you get a much larger improvement investing that money in better headphones or a better amp. I have a Naim DAC (2000 GBP?) in my speaker system and I have plugged it to the Ember and I can tell the difference compared to my Ifi nano idsd, but it is more subtle that I would like it to be if I were to spend such amount of money in a Dac for my Ember.
  
 The difference is however much more noticeable if I replace the Naim Dac in my speakers system with an Ifi nano 
  
 Anyway, I feel I am rambling here and the OP has chosen a great dac!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> I would not spend $600 on a dac to pair it with a $350 amp, but there are many opinions around here. I am using a ifi nano idsd and it sounds great with the Ember. The designer of the Ember has actually recomended something like a Modi.
> 
> But if you are set to use that budget, the Mdac cost around 600 and I doubt you can find a better dac for that price. John Westlake designed it which is quite a strong endorsement.


 
  
 I like the M-DAC too. Very versatile with all the filters, though I usually stick to one or two.
  
 The main gain for me is being able to alter the channel balance with the remote from the comfort of my arm chair 'cos I'm very sensitive to channel imbalance.


----------



## Sonic Defender

tunkejazz said:


> The difference is however much more noticeable if I replace the Naim Dac in my speakers system with an Ifi nano


 
 Why do you think this is? I would think that in a headphone system, the sound changes are so close to your ears, you're wearing your speakers, that you would be able to hear any differences. If with the speakers that I assume are several feet away from you reveal DAC changes I would think that as you get the speakers closer (like right against your ears closer) changes should be equally evident.
  
 I'm not trying to dismiss what you are saying, I can't know of course as it isn't my system, but I'm actually curious what you are hearing. I have plenty to learn so just because I don't know why something would be the case, doesn't mean it isn't actually occurring.


----------



## ericr

amish said:


> You can't go wrong with the Pagoda. It is by far the best DAC I have used to date and it will never leave my main stack. If this thing breaks I will just send it back to Mhdt Labs for repair.




Agreed! On occasion I will wonder if it was wise to have spent so much on a DAC, then I just listen again and the questions go away.


----------



## ericr

tunkejazz said:


> I would not spend $600 on a dac to pair it with a $350 amp, but there are many opinions around here. I am using a ifi nano idsd and it sounds great with the Ember. The designer of the Ember has actually recomended something like a Modi.
> 
> But if you are set to use that budget, the Mdac cost around 600 and I doubt you can find a better dac for that price. John Westlake designed it which is quite a strong endorsement.



A year or two ago I would have probably agreed with you but having done so in the last few months that would be hard to do now, right? Fortunately @soundsgoodtome let me listen to his MHDT DAC and now I own 3 of them. My main rig is the MHDT Pagoda, Ember + 6SN7W, and the 64 Audio A12. Thankfully (for my wallet) the Ember scales really well and I'm not compelled to upgrade my amp.


----------



## HOWIE13

sonic defender said:


> Why do you think this is? I would think that in a headphone system, the sound changes are so close to your ears, you're wearing your speakers, that you would be able to hear any differences. If with the speakers that I assume are several feet away from you reveal DAC changes I would think that as you get the speakers closer (like right against your ears closer) changes should be equally evident.
> 
> I'm not trying to dismiss what you are saying, I can't know of course as it isn't my system, but I'm actually curious what you are hearing. I have plenty to learn so just because I don't know why something would be the case, doesn't mean it isn't actually occurring.


 
  
 I think it is possible for differences in sources to be more obvious in speakers than cans.
  
 My home speaker set up reproduces the low end much better than any headphone I've listened too. I use a sub-woofer too. Any differences in lower frequencies between two DACs' outputs will show up more in my speakers.
  
 There's also the question of output power. Amps can change their apparent audible characteristics according to the gain they are producing. My line out to my home speaker system is fixed at the industry standard of 2V but the Headphone output will usually be much greater for the normal volumes I listen to.
  
 This may not apply in all systems of course but it does in mine


----------



## Tunkejazz

sonic defender said:


> Why do you think this is? I would think that in a headphone system, the sound changes are so close to your ears, you're wearing your speakers, that you would be able to hear any differences. If with the speakers that I assume are several feet away from you reveal DAC changes I would think that as you get the speakers closer (like right against your ears closer) changes should be equally evident.
> 
> I'm not trying to dismiss what you are saying, I can't know of course as it isn't my system, but I'm actually curious what you are hearing. I have plenty to learn so just because I don't know why something would be the case, doesn't mean it isn't actually occurring.


 
 Very good question. I think most of the differences I hear are at both ends of the spectrum as HOWIE13 pointed out. Especially in the bass actually. My speakers go down to 35 Hz and the Naim shines there. Could it be that my speaker amplifier allows to reveal these differences more clearly than the Ember?


----------



## RedBull

ericr said:


> A year or two ago I would have probably agreed with you but having done so in the last few months that would be hard to do now, right? Fortunately @soundsgoodtome let me listen to his MHDT DAC and now I own 3 of them. My main rig is the MHDT Pagoda, Ember + 6SN7W, and the 64 Audio A12. Thankfully (for my wallet) the Ember scales really well and I'm not compelled to upgrade my amp.




Agree with this. It perhaps happened that Tunkejazz speaker is more capable than his headphone system.
With hd800, the difference between DAC is very evident.
Actually i heard more detailed sound with hd800 than any speakers I ever listened to. Let's not talk about Martin Logan and above yet 

To be fair, it is also depend on the tubes used in Ember. For less detailed tube maybe the difference between dac may not be so obvious.


----------



## SeeSax

redbull said:


> Agree with this. It perhaps happened that Tunkejazz speaker is more capable than his headphone system.
> With hd800, the difference between DAC is very evident.
> Actually i heard more detailed sound with hd800 than any speakers I ever listened to. Let's not talk about Martin Logan and above yet
> 
> ...


 
  
 I hear pretty obvious differences in the Ember with my different tubes (I have 12 now). Some are bright, some are warm, some have tons of gain and some do....nothing. I'm hoping that I can coax a fantastic combination out of what I have. 
  
 Why, oh why, did you guys have to mention MHDT. I've been looking at all their models and am foaming at the mouth. Wonder if I could get by with the Canary as opposed to the Pagoda. 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## Sonic Defender

tunkejazz said:


> Very good question. I think most of the differences I hear are at both ends of the spectrum as HOWIE13 pointed out. Especially in the bass actually. My speakers go down to 35 Hz and the Naim shines there. Could it be that my speaker amplifier allows to reveal these differences more clearly than the Ember?


 
 So then we aren't talking about the DAC making the difference, which was the point being made earlier, we are talking about the speaker and or amplifier. That was kind of my point, I think most DACs will be very transparent to the user, and only ones with significant sound signature differences should be identifiable. That is what I was getting at/asking. I also have a very nice speaker rig and I greatly enjoy speaker listening.


----------



## jellofund

seesax said:


> I just decided to use my Chord Mojo in "line out mode," into an AudioQuest 3.5mm to RCA cable and then into the Ember. WOW! For some reason it is obscenely loud, so I don't know if this line out mode is feeding in a much stronger signal than my other DACs, but it's blasting my eardrums out with the volume on the Ember at 9 o'clock with my HE-560 Planars. The power is insane. It sounds brighter than the ZDac and Bifrost did, but it's extremely detailed while still being very musical. Interesting set up. More testing to do on my end.
> 
> -Collin-


 
  
 I hade a similar experience with my Polaris paired with the Mojo and HE-560.
  
 The Mojo's line out mode is rather high at 3Vrms whereas most DACs are around the 2Vrms mark I think. You can lower the output by first engaging line out mode and then pressing vol down 4 clicks (both lights blue). According to Rob Watts at Chord doing so will give you a fixed output of 1.9Vrms.
  


> Originally Posted by *Rob Watts*
> 
> 
> Yes 4 clicks down will set it to 1.9v (both balls indigo). Each step is always a 1 dB change.


 
  
 I find that by doing so I can up the volume from around 9:30 to the giddy heights of 11:00-11:30 or so


----------



## SeeSax

jellofund said:


> I hade a similar experience with my Polaris paired with the Mojo and HE-560.
> 
> The Mojo's line out mode is rather high at 3Vrms whereas most DACs are around the 2Vrms mark I think. You can lower the output by first engaging line out mode and then pressing vol down 4 clicks (both lights blue). According to Rob Watts at Chord that will give you a fixed output of 1.9Vrms.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, this is super helpful. 
  
 Can I ask, then, what is the difference between "line-out" mode and just cranking up the volume? Is the Mojo bypassing the amp section or are we still double-amping? I'm confused as I always thought line-out was nowhere near the voltage of an amplified headphone out signal. Apologies for the rookie questions here. 
  
 -Collin-


----------



## jellofund

seesax said:


> Thanks, this is super helpful.
> 
> Can I ask, then, what is the difference between "line-out" mode and just cranking up the volume? Is the Mojo bypassing the amp section or are we still double-amping? I'm confused as I always thought line-out was nowhere near the voltage of an amplified headphone out signal. Apologies for the rookie questions here.
> 
> -Collin-


 
  
 That's not a problem!
  
 I have to admit that I'm not very technically minded so a lot of the finer details probably went over my head. Started to type up a reply but then spotted a post (#18033) in the Mojo thread that explains things a lot better than I could hope to. 
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/18030#post_12603339
  
 Hope this helps and think it essentially boils down to i) consider the Mojo to be a DAC offering a very clean variable line out, and, ii) don't worry about double amping.


----------



## ericr

seesax said:


> ...
> Why, oh why, did you guys have to mention MHDT. I've been looking at all their models and am foaming at the mouth. Wonder if I could get by with the Canary as opposed to the Pagoda.
> 
> -Collin-




If the price of the Pagoda is easy for you to swing then I would say go for it. Otherwise I would suggest the Canary. My second rig (usually at work) has the discontinued Paradisea 3 which is based on the same DAC chip as the Canary. Sure I like (well OK, love) the Pagoda, but is in no way a downer when using the Paradisea 3. I sold my Multi-bit Bifrost (aka Bimby) and kept the Paradisea 3 - if that is any indication. The Canary should only be better.

Also, the MHDT gear seems to hold its value rather well so you should be able to upgrade later without taking too much of a hit.

Hope that helps.


----------



## SeeSax

ericr said:


> If the price of the Pagoda is easy for you to swing then I would say go for it. Otherwise I would suggest the Canary. My second rig (usually at work) has the discontinued Paradisea 3 which is based on the same DAC chip as the Canary. Sure I like (well OK, love) the Pagoda, but is in no way a downer when using the Paradisea 3. I sold my Multi-bit Bifrost (aka Bimby) and kept the Paradisea 3 - if that is any indication. The Canary should only be better.
> 
> Also, the MHDT gear seems to hold its value rather well so you should be able to upgrade later without taking too much of a hit.
> 
> Hope that helps.




Super helpful. Any idea where the Havana falls in the lineup? There's one in the classifieds for $450.


----------



## ericr

IMHO: Pagoda > Sockholm 2 > Havana 2 > Havana > Paradisea 3.

I've not heard the Atlantis or Canary.

If it's a Havana 2 and you are looking for maximum value for you $, I would suggest buying it right NOW. If it's the older Havana it's still worthwhile (especially if some additional tubes are included for the price).

Also see:

http://dhost.info/mhdtlab/mhdt dac families.htm

So as to not hijack this thead any more than we have, please post further MHDT questions here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/798259/mhdt-labs-r-2r-nos-tube-dacs. 

While you are there, note a recent post by @luckbad where he shares a link to his excellent and entertaining review that compares various DACS from MHDT Labs.

-Eric


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 Well  I will soon have a project ember !  i'm very excited. My first tube ! and i will have 3 tubes with it !!
  
  
 It's seems that some use precotion are needed : away from other electronical thing, seperate power supply ... is this true ?
  
 By the way can I made an "iem shield" with a metal box or something  ? or is it a bad idea ?
  
 For for the start I will use it with a Creative ZxR aop moded sources, and in few weeks with xduoo xd-05, and after something else ( very interesting in  schiit modi 2 multibit).
  
  
 Thx in advance !


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Well  I will soon have a project ember !  i'm very excited. My first tube ! and i will have 3 tubes with it !!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congratulations! 
  
 I wouldn't consider any adaptations just now.
 Most of the hum issues related to the use of exotic tubes or interference from other equipment.
 Essentially Ember is a quiet amplifier and I would just see how you get on without purchasing any additional products at this stage.


----------



## gug42

Thx for you advice I stay like that and see thing coming


----------



## mapotofu

luckbad said:


> @RedBull
> Yep, I wrote this comparison:
> 
> 
> http://www.basshead.club/garage1217-project-ember-horizon-sunrise-review/


 
 Thank you for this comparison.  I am considering getting the sunrise and/or ember.  It looks like the Ember is more versatile and would be better suited for my low impedance hp's (Fostex TH-900/TH-X00 are 25 ohms) but I am attracted to the more tube-like tone and class A designed MOSFET output.  I would appreciate any other feedback from anyone else who has experience with both of these amps.  Thanks!


----------



## DavidA

mapotofu said:


> Thank you for this comparison.  I am considering getting the sunrise and/or ember.  It looks like the Ember is more versatile and would be better suited for my low impedance hp's (Fostex TH-900/TH-X00 are 25 ohms) but I am attracted to the more tube-like tone and class A designed MOSFET output.  I would appreciate any other feedback from anyone else who has experience with both of these amps.  Thanks!


 
 I have an Ember and its about as good as it gets for under $500 but for some headphones like my HD-800, T1 and DT-990 premium 250ohm they sound better on my BH Crack and my HE-560 is a little better on my Lyr2.  With the HD-800 and T1 the sound difference between the Ember and BH Crack is easy to notice but with the DT-990, HD-700, HE-400i, LCD-2 the differences between the Ember and Lyr2 are subtle and sometimes I can't tell the difference.


----------



## gug42

Hello, 

Thank you for sgaring 

Like you say so little differences soundbetween lyr2 and ember : but a huge one for tube rolling  only one for ember

Regards,


----------



## DavidA

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for sgaring
> 
> ...


 
 Just remember that the headphones in use make a difference in the impression.


----------



## mapotofu

Just placed an order for both the Ember and the Sunrise.  Very excited!


----------



## Tunkejazz

Preparing to separate rigs?


----------



## mapotofu

mapotofu said:


> Just placed an order for both the Ember and the Sunrise.  Very excited!


 
  
 Jeremy just sent me these photos.


----------



## nwavesailor

mapotofu said:


> Jeremy just sent me these photos.


 

 You are set!
  
 Let the tube rolling begin..........................


----------



## peter123

Here's my baby before getting packed in and sent out to Norway:


----------



## Tuneslover

Has anyone upgraded from the Vali 2 to the Project Ember?  I know the Ember is a more versatile amp than the V2 but assuming the same tube is being used in both amps is there much (or any) sonic differences between these 2 hybrids?


----------



## nwavesailor

tuneslover said:


> Has anyone upgraded from the Vali 2 to the Project Ember?  I know the Ember is a more versatile amp than the V2 but assuming the same tube is being used in both amps is there much (or any) sonic differences between these 2 hybrids?


 

 I believe @HOWIE13 has (or had at one time) owned both the Vali 2 and Ember.
 He helped me when I was considering going from a Vali 2 to a Project Starlight. I ended up selling the Vali 2 and bought the Starlight! While I enjoyed the Vali 2 the Starlight was a VERY nice step up for me in SQ.
  
 Granted, the Starlight is not an Ember II, but I don't regret selling the Vali 2 for the Project Starlight at all. Hopefully HOWIE13 will chime in and give you his take on these 2 amps.
  
 HOWIE13 also had notes, from owning a Starlight, and gave me some op-amp reviews that I found very helpful.


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> I believe @HOWIE13 has (or had at one time) owned both the Vali 2 and Ember.
> He helped me when I was considering going from a Vali 2 to a Project Starlight. I ended up selling the Vali 2 and bought the Starlight! While I enjoyed the Vali 2 the Starlight was a VERY nice step up for me in SQ.
> 
> Granted, the Starlight is not an Ember II, but I don't regret selling the Vali 2 for the Project Starlight at all. Hopefully HOWIE13 will chime in and give you his take on these 2 amps.
> ...


 
 That does indeed say it all.
 Ember is well worth to my ears the $150 extra cost compared to Vali2, even though Vali2 is excellent value for money and still a good amp.
 I've never compared the amps tube for tube as I have always taken advantage of Ember's great configurability to suit the music I listen to.


----------



## HOWIE13

tuneslover said:


> Has anyone upgraded from the Vali 2 to the Project Ember?  I know the Ember is a more versatile amp than the V2 but assuming the same tube is being used in both amps is there much (or any) sonic differences between these 2 hybrids?


 
 Ember is so much more configurable that it isn't really possible to do a tube for tube comparison, not would it be realistic as Ember has no 'default' setting. It's a chameleon amp, altering it's characteristics according to the sound you wish for.


----------



## ericr

... and I find on the low impedance setting (.01 Ohms) the Ember is excellent at driving multi-BA IEMS such a the Noble K10 or 64 Audio A12.


----------



## peter123

My faithful LD I+ had to move out to make room for the new family member:


----------



## Solrighal

I think you'll be impressed.


----------



## peter123

solrighal said:


> I think you'll be impressed.




I am  

Honestly I think I've got a couple of really good amplifiers in the Burson Conductor V2+ and my HA-200 mono blocks but the Ember still impress me, I like it


----------



## gug42

hello,
  
 what tube did you use ? the stock one ?


----------



## peter123

gug42 said:


> hello,
> 
> what tube did you use ? the stock one ?




Hey, if you're asking me mine came with a very nice Conn tube pre installed. I've also tried it with a unknown 6SN7 tube but so far I prefer the Conn one but I've only got a couple of hours with it so far.


----------



## gug42

Well conn is the brand ? 
 Did you know the model / version ? and why is great ?


----------



## peter123

gug42 said:


> Well conn is the brand ?
> Did you know the model / version ? and why is great ?




Yes, Conn is the brand. It's great because I like it  Honestly I've only listened to the Ember for a couple of hours. Give me a couple of more days and I'll try to give you some more details.


----------



## Tuneslover

Well I'm a happy Schiit Vali 2 owner but have always been curious about the Project Ember. Yesterday I decided to order one.


----------



## husafreak

Kit or built? Let us know how you like it, I like mine.


----------



## nwavesailor

tuneslover said:


> Well I'm a happy Schiit Vali 2 owner but have always been curious about the Project Ember. Yesterday I decided to order one.


 

 I went from a Vali 2 to a Starlight and I'm have been very happy with the 'basic' Garage 1217 amp!
  
 I enjoyed the Vali 2, but I have so many more tube and opamps to use that the Starlight has been a very nice step up for me.
  
 Just had the USPS deliver a pair of 6P5G to try later today as well as a pair of 6L5G in route. I'm anxious to see how they compare to the Visseaux 6J5G, Fivre 6C5G and NU 6F8G I've been using lately.


----------



## Tunkejazz

nwavesailor said:


> I went from a Vali 2 to a Starlight and I'm have been very happy with the 'basic' Garage 1217 amp!
> 
> I enjoyed the Vali 2, but I have so many more tube and opamps to use that the Starlight has been a very nice step up for me.
> 
> Just had the USPS deliver a pair of 6P5G to try later today as well as a pair of 6L5G in route. I'm anxious to see how they compare to the Visseaux 6J5G, Fivre 6C5G and NU 6F8G I've been using lately.


 

 Those Fivre's are not cheap...how do you like them compared to your V's?


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> Those Fivre's are not cheap...how do you like them compared to your V's?


 

 Sorry for the delay, Tunkejazz.
  
 The V's have a bit more top end or sparkle to them, not bad, just more there. The Fivre 6C5G may dig a bit deeper in bass. Sorry, I'm not good at the A / B / C tube comparison thing.
  
 I could easily live with the  'V' 6J5G, Fivre's 6C5G, 6F8G, your version of the Raytheon 6SN7 / VT-132 or perhaps 6P5G........just had the 6P5G for 2 days so I'm still giving them time and figuring out their sound.


----------



## Tunkejazz

nwavesailor said:


> Sorry for the delay, Tunkejazz.
> 
> The V's have a bit more top end or sparkle to them, not bad, just more there. The Fivre 6C5G may dig a bit deeper in bass. Sorry, I'm not good at the A / B / C tube comparison thing.
> 
> I could easily live with the  'V' 6J5G, Fivre's 6C5G, 6F8G, your version of the Raytheon 6SN7 / VT-132 or perhaps 6P5G........just had the 6P5G for 2 days so I'm still giving them time and figuring out their sound.


 

 Thanks! I may give the Fivres a shot


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> Thanks! I may give the Fivres a shot


 

 Tunkejazz, as you are moving into the Euforia camp I doubt you will now snag a pair of the Fivre 6C5G. You will have a new batch of Euforia tubes to chase!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  I have been using the Fivre's for a couple of days now and they have a very nice balance. Not to much 'tizz' on top but go deep with nice feel and detail.
  
 I may go in the direction Astral Abyss mentioned in the Ember tube thread and try some of the Tung Sol 6J5G's that he liked better than his 'V's.


----------



## Tunkejazz

nwavesailor said:


> Tunkejazz, as you are moving into the Euforia camp I doubt you will now snag a pair of the Fivre 6C5G. You will have a new batch of Euforia tubes to chase!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well...I will still keep the Ember in my office 
 But I am beyond broke at the moment to afford sourcing more tubes. I found a guy that also sells Raytheon 6L5 on ebay. It got me curious, but never took the step of ordering them (10 USD each).


----------



## nwavesailor (Apr 27, 2017)

Posting this in the Ember tube rolling thread


----------



## Tuneslover

Well my wife and I have returned from our month long road trip throughout the U.S.  I ordered a Project Ember way back in April and had it sent to my uncle's place in Idaho.  So after 2 months of patiently waiting to hear this headphone amp I have it setup at home and am finally enjoying my Ember.  It came with an RCA Cleartop 12au7 and I have had them burning in now for about 40 hours.  This burn in time also allowed me to warm up my Modi Multibit because it has been turned off and unplugged while we were away.  I have listened-in periodically and am thrilled from what I have been hearing, however I will do more critical listening over the next few days and report back.  I also brought back with me from the U.S. a Schiit Sys which will be handy for comparisons with my Vali 2.


----------



## nwavesailor

I had a Vali 2 before I bought a Garage 1217 Sunrise. IMO, the Sunrise is a far better hp amp. I was thrilled with the SQ of the Sunrise from the very first track I played and knew it was a keeper. After trying a variety of opamps (not something you can do with the Ember) and dual 1940's vintage Tung Sol 6J5G, I'm set!


----------



## DavidA

Tuneslover said:


> Well my wife and I have returned from our month long road trip throughout the U.S.  I ordered a Project Ember way back in April and had it sent to my uncle's place in Idaho.  So after 2 months of patiently waiting to hear this headphone amp I have it setup at home and am finally enjoying my Ember.  It came with an RCA Cleartop 12au7 and I have had them burning in now for about 40 hours.  This burn in time also allowed me to warm up my Modi Multibit because it has been turned off and unplugged while we were away.  I have listened-in periodically and am thrilled from what I have been hearing, however I will do more critical listening over the next few days and report back.  I also brought back with me from the U.S. a Schiit Sys which will be handy for comparisons with my Vali 2.



I love the Sys, makes it easy to compare DACs since I use it in reverse, currently have Bimby and UD-301 hooked up to the Sys and the output is split to Ember, Lyr2 and BH Crack.

A friend let me use her Vali2 for a few days and its not in the same league as the Ember from my limited time with the Vali2 due to the adjustable output impedance of the Ember which to me is one of the biggest issues of trying to match amps to headphones.


----------



## Tuneslover

Tuneslover said:


> Well my wife and I have returned from our month long road trip throughout the U.S.  I ordered a Project Ember way back in April and had it sent to my uncle's place in Idaho.  So after 2 months of patiently waiting to hear this headphone amp I have it setup at home and am finally enjoying my Ember.  It came with an RCA Cleartop 12au7 and I have had them burning in now for about 40 hours.  This burn in time also allowed me to warm up my Modi Multibit because it has been turned off and unplugged while we were away.  I have listened-in periodically and am thrilled from what I have been hearing, however I will do more critical listening over the next few days and report back.  I also brought back with me from the U.S. a Schiit Sys which will be handy for comparisons with my Vali 2.




So it's been a few days since my original post (see above) regarding my Project Ember.  I have had a wonderful time over the last 3 or so days listening to the Ember sampling a variety of music and rolling my modest collection of tubes.  In short this is one heck of a nice sounding amp, that's for sure.

Today I decided to perform a "shoot-out" between the Ember and my Vali 2.  I selected the cut entitled "DOCTOR" from Wishbone Ash - Live Dates II CD for it's excellent recording and dynamics.  It's a digital FLAC 16/44.1 rip from the CD, from my FiiO X5ii DAP, coaxial output into a Modi Multibit.  The analog out from the Modi went into a Schiit Sys which allowed me to toggle between the amps. I decided that I liked the Elektro-Harmonix 6922 the best due it's satisfying bass punch while still keeping the treble detailed and clear.  I only have 1 of those tubes so I had to move the EH tube between the Vali 2 and the Ember.  Both analog cables feeding the amps were AQ Chicago.  I used the HD650's as my preferred headphone.  After deciding on which cut I would use to compare these hybrid amps, the method to perform my comparison was to listened to the entire song on 1 amp and then repeat the same cut on the other amp.  I repeated this comparison 3 times, noting the sound at each listening session.  I intend to do more 1 song comparisons over the next few days but I must confess I find sticking to one good song helped keep my thoughts more focused.  Things start to get confusing when using more songs during a comparative listening session.

I hadn't heard the Vali 2 for almost 2 months, and conversely, was now slowly becoming familiar with the Ember sound having played with it for the past several days.  I decided to start with the somewhat unfamiliar Vali 2.  To my astonishment the Vali 2 presented itself as a very good sounding competitor that I initially thought wasn't that far off in sound quality in comparison to the Ember.  I did notice right off the bat that it had a warm character with good bass. Yes I recalled that very satisfying Vali 2 sound.  Switching over to the Ember was a revelation, equally good in the bass department but the bass plucking revealed good definition that the Vali 2 was not able to reproduce.  Same with the dual lead guitar licks (Yeah!  Wishbone Ash!), lots of clarity and detail.  Furthermore, the Ember had superior soundstage width and depth which painted a much more live-like auditory picture of where the instruments and vocalist were located on the stage for this live performance.  Conversely the Vali 2 had a slightly rolled off high's sound that was less clear sounding when making a direct comparison with the Project Ember.  I was able to follow the vocals very easily with the Ember but the Vali 2 seemed to have the vocals recessed which made it difficult to understand what the vocalist was singing.

Repeating this one track comparison a couple of more times solidified, to me, my initial assessment.  Now considering that the Project Ember is roughly twice the price of the Vali 2 it should come as no real surprise that it should sound superior.  However I wouldn't say that it's twice as good sounding, in fact the Vali 2 is an excellent sounding amp relative to it's price.  A few other advantages that the Ember gives you is the adjustable output impedance, a superior soft mute during initial amp startup and a much better volume control.  Aesthetically, both are nice looking amps but I absolutely love seeing the guts of the Ember, as well as, the blue LED glow under the tube!

I really like the Vali 2 because it is indeed a terrific amp for only $169, however now that I own an Ember I can't realistically see myself choosing the Vali 2 very often especially that I also alternate between my Jotunheim and Lake People G109S.  I suspect that I will be selling the V2 in the near future.


----------



## Tuneslover

My bedside system.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Tuneslover said:


> My bedside system.



It is great that you like your Ember.
Can you imagine how much better it can get with a Raytheon 6sn7gt (flat plates, with support polls)??


----------



## Tunkejazz

BTW, about 1.5 years ago I bought the last pair of Visseaux 6J5 from eBay seller yitry (Langrex). I have put in total approximately 130h on them, but I always found them a bit too polite for rock music so they have been collecting dust for quite a while. Instead I have been using a Raytheon 6SN7GT that seems to pait better with my headphones and taste.

If anyone wants to buy them please pm me, I will only ask for the amount I paid, £30 per tube+shipping. They go for a LOT more on ebay nowadays (> £90 per tube).


----------



## DavidA

@Tuneslover , love the "Stack" but I would be so afraid that I'll knock over the Vali2 or Ember when plugging in a headphone.  I have my Ember stuck to my listening table with Velcro so I can plug and unplug without holding it.


----------



## Tuneslover

DavidA said:


> @Tuneslover , love the "Stack" but I would be so afraid that I'll knock over the Vali2 or Ember when plugging in a headphone.  I have my Ember stuck to my listening table with Velcro so I can plug and unplug without holding it.



LOL!  Great idea about the Velcro.  I don't intend to keep the Vali 2 there for much longer, once I finish my comparisons against the Ember I plan to sell it.  Besides 2 amps is more than enough to keep me from getting adequate sleep.


----------



## cskippy

Just a heads up, if you're looking for a Project Ember (with metal chassis and optional tubes) I posted mine in the for sale section.  

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/g...nd-metal-serialized-chasis-plus-tubes.853362/


----------



## Tuneslover (Jul 20, 2017)

Tuneslover said:


> LOL!  Great idea about the Velcro.  I don't intend to keep the Vali 2 there for much longer, once I finish my comparisons against the Ember I plan to sell it.  Besides 2 amps is more than enough to keep me from getting adequate sleep.





Tuneslover said:


> LOL!  Great idea about the Velcro.  I don't intend to keep the Vali 2 there for much longer, once I finish my comparisons against the Ember I plan to sell it.  Besides 2 amps is more than enough to keep me from getting adequate sleep.[/QUOTE


----------



## Tuneslover

Actually I have decided to keep my Vali2.  Put it into my iMac>Bifrost 4490>Audioengine setup.  I need to stop buying stuff, I now have 4 separate headphone listening setups!


----------



## DavidA

Tuneslover said:


> Actually I have decided to keep my Vali2.  Put it into my iMac>Bifrost 4490>Audioengine setup.  I need to stop buying stuff, I now have 4 separate headphone listening setups!


I think you can never have enough gear, LOL, but I only have 3 setups


----------



## Tuneslover

DavidA said:


> I think you can never have enough gear, LOL, but I only have 3 setups



I also have a home theatre receiver plus two 2-channel speaker setups...naturally all with headphone outputs, but I only use headphones on the home theatre setup after my wife goes to bed while I'm watching TV.


----------



## timjclark

Greetings!

I just purchased a used Ember 2.1 with a handful of tubes (6n6p, 5814, 6n2p and 6dj8).  I'm combing through this thread - I'm somewhere in the 60's at this point.

In trying these tubes this week I'm not hearing much of a difference and I'd to get your input.  My headphones are Koss ProDJ200's.  These have served me fine for the past two years and I'm generally a fan of Koss stuff as I'm a native to Milwaukee.  These phones are 38 ohm with 99db SPL.  What settings should I be making to the Ember to best suit this headphones?  From the reading, it seems like there is lots of love for the 6dj8 (mine is a GE with chrome top).  The only big difference I can tell between them is that the 5814 is really sensitive to when I tap the Ember or when plugging in the headphones it sends a ping through the headphones.

So why did I buy the Ember anyway?  I jumped on the massdrop order for HD6xx's (est. delivery Dec 2017) and I've been wanting to explore headphone amps for a while and once I started reading this thread, G1217's website and swapping some emails with Jeremy, I knew this was the direction for me.  And then last weekend there was this used one on ebay that I won.

If there is a better thread or specific post which answers this, point me in the right direction.

Thank you all for the amazing amount of information in this thread.


----------



## DavidA

Welcome to the Ember club.  I haven't heard a Koss ProDJ200 so I don't know anything about their sound signature but the HD6XX will be well served by the Ember.  I've yet to find a tube that is as prone to ringing like you describe, guess I've been lucky so far with my small collection:

 
One thing I would recommend is to get some Deoxit Gold or Red to clean the pins of the tubes.


----------



## Tunkejazz (Jul 28, 2017)

I would choose low output impedance. You can test with bypassing the input caps too. Those headphones have quite low impedance, I am not sure how well they perform with the Ember. The hd6xx is the benchmark used to design this amp and it should pair very well.

I have never tried Koss headphones. With my hd650 and he400i I can tell appart tubes from different families. All those tubes are fine in my opinion. In my experience the sound really changed for good when I started to use 6SN7 and 6J5 tubes with Ember.  Both need adaptors. The main difference with the tubes you mention are a bit better stagging (bigger) and more clarity in my opinion. Bass was also a bit more extended. Note that changing headphones has a lot larger influence than changing tubes.

My tip: if you want to try something different you could try to source the 6sn7 adapter from Jeremy and give a try to a 6sn7 tube (e.g, ken Rad 6sn7gt or Raytheon 6sn7gt with flat plates and support rods). If you don't notice much difference with your HD6xx then perhaps you could settle for a while with those tubes and try to train a bit your ears.

The designer of Ember does not recommend spending a fortune in tubes...they have a relatively moderate effect compared to other elements in the chain


----------



## timjclark

DavidA said:


> Welcome to the Ember club.  I haven't heard a Koss ProDJ200 so I don't know anything about their sound signature but the HD6XX will be well served by the Ember.  I've yet to find a tube that is as prone to ringing like you describe, guess I've been lucky so far with my small collection:
> 
> One thing I would recommend is to get some Deoxit Gold or Red to clean the pins of the tubes.



That's a fantastic collection of tubes!  And I just bought the same storage case this week for my Hot Wheels - another more modest hobby of mine.   

It is not so much ringing actually - its just really sensitive to any shock waves.  It's no big deal.


----------



## timjclark

Tunkejazz said:


> I would choose low output impedance. You can test with bypassing the input caps too. Those headphones have quite low impedance, I am not sure how well they perform with the Ember. The hd6xx is the benchmark used to design this amp and it should pair very well.
> 
> I have never tried Koss headphones. With my hd650 and he400i I can tell appart tubes from different families. All those tubes are fine in my opinion. In my experience the sound really changed for good when I started to use 6SN7 and 6J5 tubes with Ember.  Both need adaptors. The main difference with the tubes you mention are a bit better stagging (bigger) and more clarity in my opinion. Bass was also a bit more extended. Note that changing headphones has a lot larger influence than changing tubes.
> 
> ...



I do have it on low output impedance (those are the ones facing outward on the sides, right?).  The middle setting takes away any background noise, but on the low setting it is such a minor amount, I'm fine with it.

I have bypassed the input caps just for the "purity" of it all.  I don't think I heard any difference.  With my tubes, with it bypassed I hear a tad of scratchiness when changing the volume as expected.  Again, it's so minor it does not matter to me.

I do plan to try the 6SN7 adapter and tubes down the road a bit.  SO. MUCH. FUN.

A very interesting thing about my headphone listening, is that my vintage Pioneer SX-727 holds its own VS the Ember II thus far.  Again, this is with my Koss hp which may only take me so far...  It's a long wait for the HD6xx's until December.

Cheers!


----------



## Tunkejazz

timjclark said:


> I have bypassed the input caps just for the "purity" of it all. I don't think I heard any difference. With my tubes, with it bypassed I hear a tad of scratchiness when changing the volume as expected. Again, it's so minor it does not matter to me.



According to the designer, if you don't hear a difference the tube has very low grid leakage (which I guess is a good thing!).
http://diyah.boards.net/post/25614/thread


----------



## timjclark

Tunkejazz said:


> According to the designer, if you don't hear a difference the tube has very low grid leakage (which I guess is a good thing!).
> http://diyah.boards.net/post/25614/thread



Thank you for that link - good stuff!  I've only tried 2 of my 4 tubes since making this change.

Oh hey - here's a practical question that since I'm new to rolling that I have (and I don't recall seeing any comments on this in the 84 pages of this thread), are there any rules of thumb I should be following when wanting to swap tubes?  Namely, how long after I power down should I wait before pulling the tube?  If the tube is warm but not hot, go for it?  Any other tips for a newbie?


----------



## richard51 (Aug 2, 2017)

salutations  to all of you...

I sell my Ember v1.2 + 3 adapters + 30 tubes...at 295.00 $.... contact me if you are interested....

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ember-version1-2.856230/


----------



## Bren Arden

Hello all, 
I ordered a project ember ii and am awaiting delivery. I plan tot use it as a preamp aswel as a headamp. Can anyone tell me how the outputresistors and tube gain affect the preamp outputs? It wil function as a preamp into a 36dB gain poweramp (job 225) so i need the preamp gain tot be as low as possible. I dont want to be operating between 6oclock and 8oclock volume setting for pre and alot higher for headphones, accidents will happen. DAC is a violectric V850. I want to use the ember to learn about tubes and rolling for flavours. Figure out what i like and dislike. Also does the pre out have some form of dc-protection, since job 225 is DC coupled?


----------



## DavidA

Bren Arden said:


> Hello all,
> I ordered a project ember ii and am awaiting delivery. I plan tot use it as a preamp aswel as a headamp. Can anyone tell me how the outputresistors and tube gain affect the preamp outputs? It wil function as a preamp into a 36dB gain poweramp (job 225) so i need the preamp gain tot be as low as possible. I dont want to be operating between 6oclock and 8oclock volume setting for pre and alot higher for headphones, accidents will happen. DAC is a violectric V850. I want to use the ember to learn about tubes and rolling for flavours. Figure out what i like and dislike. Also does the pre out have some form of dc-protection, since job 225 is DC coupled?


Best to talk to Jeremy at Garage 1217.


----------



## Bren Arden

I have received the Project Ember II today and am now testing it as preamp. First thing i MUST say is: It purrs like a kitten!!!
There are no clicks or pops and not even more hiss than from my dac-direct into the amplifier. I dont get anny sounds at all when turning it on or off or plugging in or removing headphones while my  (DC Coupled) amplifier is on. This is VERY impressive. Soundwise i can turn my speakers louder than ever without them turning harsh... I did NOT expect this. I will be looking forward to test some tubes Jeremy advised me for speed and clarity (6dj8 or 6n23p personal preference), although i am LOVING the tube he supplied as standard (12au7).
I dont even feel like i lost anny transparancy nor speed coming from dac direct.... there is not more than few millisec delay when swapping songs or software... 
This was all tested right out of the box with a 5 minute warmup...
I dont think this one wil be leaving me anny time soon


----------



## Bren Arden

Now to get my  hands on some vintage Reflektor Holy Grail '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields... just to be sure i spend as much  on a tube as on my amplifier? ^^


----------



## Tuneslover

Bren Arden said:


> I have received the Project Ember II today and am now testing it as preamp. First thing i MUST say is: It purrs like a kitten!!!
> There are no clicks or pops and not even more hiss than from my dac-direct into the amplifier. I dont get anny sounds at all when turning it on or off or plugging in or removing headphones while my  (DC Coupled) amplifier is on. This is VERY impressive. Soundwise i can turn my speakers louder than ever without them turning harsh... I did NOT expect this. I will be looking forward to test some tubes Jeremy advised me for speed and clarity (6dj8 or 6n23p personal preference), although i am LOVING the tube he supplied as standard (12au7).
> I dont even feel like i lost anny transparancy nor speed coming from dac direct.... there is not more than few millisec delay when swapping songs or software...
> This was all tested right out of the box with a 5 minute warmup...
> I dont think this one wil be leaving me anny time soon



Sweet!


----------



## rgmffn

Yeah..!  Nice, ain't it!  I loove my Ember.


----------



## DavidA

Bren Arden said:


> Now to get my  hands on some vintage Reflektor Holy Grail '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields... just to be sure i spend as much  on a tube as on my amplifier? ^^



I think you get a better bang for the buck with 6SN7 tubes but if you have another amp like the Lyr2 then get a pair since the '75s are one of the best for it.


----------



## Bren Arden

I was kinda joking about the reflektor tube but.. i might later on. I feel its better to get used to the amp as it is, for when you do end up trying new tubes you wil end up hearing the differences more clearly. 180,00 Euro is a bit steep though for a noob like me. Stil loving the ember as preamp, i listen through speakers for 70% of the time and 30% or so through headphones.


----------



## DavidA

Bren Arden said:


> I was kinda joking about the reflektor tube but.. i might later on. I feel its better to get used to the amp as it is, for when you do end up trying new tubes you wil end up hearing the differences more clearly. 180,00 Euro is a bit steep though for a noob like me. Stil loving the ember as preamp, i listen through speakers for 70% of the time and 30% or so through headphones.



180 euros is really pricy, I got my 2 pairs (4 tubes total) for $160 many years ago but I only use them in my Lyr2 since they are matched pairs.  These days I only use a pair for about a month in the Lyr2 and then swap in a different pair since I like to rotate all the tubes (currently have 28 pairs) that I have.


----------



## ericr

Bren Arden said:


> Now to get my  hands on some vintage Reflektor Holy Grail '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields... just to be sure i spend as much  on a tube as on my amplifier? ^^



*Sylvania  6SN7W*.  

Holy grail sound, no risky epic quest needed.


----------



## Bren Arden (Aug 16, 2017)

Thank you for the tip Ericr,  if they are around 19-29 euros or so? I wil pick one up and test it. I also read some realy good stuff about 6n6p tube, might try one out aswel ^^.

I bypassed the input resistors aswel as the capacitors with the jumper. It works perfectly with no scratchyness at all on my project ember II with the stock 12au7s. Curious to see what happens when i insert my incoming siemens e88cc gold pins (29euros ebay hope its not fake). They arrive today together with my Alpha Prime headphones upgrade.

Has annyone heard the Alpha Primes on the Ember?


----------



## DavidA

Bren Arden said:


> Thank you for the tip Ericr,  if they are around 19-29 euros or so? I wil pick one up and test it. I also read some realy good stuff about 6n6p tube, might try one out aswel ^^.
> 
> I bypassed the input resistors aswel as the capacitors with the jumper. It works perfectly with no scratchyness at all on my project ember II with the stock 12au7s. Curious to see what happens when i insert my incoming siemens e88cc gold pins (29euros ebay hope its not fake). They arrive today together with my Alpha Prime headphones upgrade.
> 
> Has annyone heard the Alpha Primes on the Ember?


I did hear the Alpha Prime with my Ember but it was over a year ago and audio memory is not really good.  While I didn't care for the Alpha Prime with my Ember (overly warm) it was okay with my friends Hugo, but I've never really warmed to the tuning of MrSpeaker headphones, they are all a bit dry sounding to me and this includes the Ether/C.


----------



## Bren Arden

I like a dry sound, i like a warm sound to... depends on genre/style music i am listening to. One day i  prefere my Sonorous III, other days my MrSpeakers or HD650. I guess it depends as much on my mood, as the headphones im listenign to. To date i have never had a headphone i did NOT like... unless it was just flawed to crap ^^.
I must admit though i have only heard 4 headphones so far being dt770 and the previous 3 mentioned. I read the sound of Alpha dogs/primes realy opens up to high power balanced riggs such as Violectric V281 or COS H1. Maybe one day il feel inclined to buy one... But not now and not for those prices.


----------



## DavidA

Bren Arden said:


> I like a dry sound, i like a warm sound to... depends on genre/style music i am listening to. One day i  prefere my Sonorous III, other days my MrSpeakers or HD650. I guess it depends as much on my mood, as the headphones im listenign to. To date i have never had a headphone i did NOT like... unless it was just flawed to **** ^^.
> I must admit though i have only heard 4 headphones so far being dt770 and the previous 3 mentioned. I read the sound of Alpha dogs/primes realy opens up to high power balanced riggs such as Violectric V281 or COS H1. Maybe one day il feel inclined to buy one... But not now and not for those prices.


I have to agree with you about all the headphones that I've kept, they all have their own unique sound and it does depend on the genre and my mood.  Only thing that I have not liked so far are all MrSpeaker headphones, to me the tuning is just a bit to dry for me with the Ether/C and Alpha Prime that a friend brought over, and this is with pairing them with a Hugo which is a slightly warmer DAC/amp.


----------



## Tunkejazz

ericr said:


> *Sylvania  6SN7W*.
> 
> Holy grail sound, no risky epic quest needed.



Indeed! I just got a pair of those for my FA Euforia and they work equally good on Ember.

Ps: NOT to be confussed with the 6SN7WGT variant, which is actually not as good.


----------



## Bren Arden

Anny of u guys have experience with a linear power supply? Anny advice on a good one?

Does the sylvania 6SN7W require an adaptor? And where to buy in europe?


----------



## Tunkejazz

Bren Arden said:


> Anny of u guys have experience with a linear power supply? Anny advice on a good one?
> 
> Does the sylvania 6SN7W require an adaptor? And where to buy in europe?



You need to buy the 6SN7 to EC88. I am not quite sure you can buy the adapter from any other vendor than Jeremy so that it works on Ember but I may be wrong. I remember some comments about this early on, but it could be when using 6SN7 to 12ax7.

I bought a 6J5 to EC88 from a Chinese seller on ebay and it never gave me any trouble.


----------



## sha007

Hi is it safe to use a Se846 iem with project ember 2 since the earphone's impedance is only 9 ohm?


----------



## wadi

sha007 said:


> Hi is it safe to use a Se846 iem with project ember 2 since the earphone's impedance is only 9 ohm?



No. It will hum badly.


----------



## sha007

wadi said:


> No. It will hum badly.



Thanks for the relpy. So which desktop amp I can use with the iem?


----------



## Jearly410

sha007 said:


> Thanks for the relpy. So which desktop amp I can use with the iem?


Ifi micro black label has iematch which will ensure zero hum or hiss.


----------



## ericr (Oct 7, 2017)

I'll chime in with a more detailed perspective, so those with IEMs looking at the Ember wont be needlessly scared be away.

First, for clarity, the Ember is safe to use with IEMs.  It is capable of significant output power, so for the sake of your ears you won't want to be reckless with the volume knob.  On the other hand, the high gain setting is great for hungry full size cans.


*Does the Ember hiss with IEMs (when properly configured)?*

22 Ohms - No     (64 Audio U6)
16 Ohms - No     (64 Audio A12)
  9 Ohms - Yes   (64 Audio a18)

Does it hiss badly at 9 Ohms?  To my ears the hiss is minor, but noticeable, in between song and during quiet passages.  To be fair to Jearly410, when it come to hiss, one persons "minor" might be another's "badly".


*More Details*
I own two of the original Ember 1 amps that Jeremy at Garage1217 has modified specifically to deal with hiss when using my IEMs. These modifications are standard in the currently shipping Ember 2 (aka - rev 2.1).

*EricR's Project Ember IEM Use Guidelines*:*
_*feedback & additions encouraged_

1) Use the Ember's low gain setting
2) Use a low gain tube (I prefer the 6SN7 tubes, thankfully they are all low gain).
3) Use an Input Attenuation module (IIRC it plugs into a socket on the back of the Ember 2, Garage1217 sells these).
4) Rev 2.1 added a 4-way jumper on the Ember 2, one of the 4 possible settings resolves a hiss issue I was having (sorry I don't know the exact jumper placement).  From the Blog at Garage1217.com:

_Now, we have 4 total settings:_

_ Through cap + resistor = default setting / results in ultra low volpot scratch with certain tubes that are a little leaky _
_ Bypass only the input resistor = This can lower background hiss on certain tubes like the 12ax7 / 5751 or 12at7 with ultra high efficiency headphones or IEM's _
_ Bypass input capacitor = Some purists do not like an capacitor on the input side so we give this option to eliminate it. Usually results in volpot scratch with most tubes but does not hurt anything _
_ Bypass the input cap AND resistor = For the purist that wants to lower background hiss on certain tubes like the 12ax7 / 5751 or 12at7 and not have an input cap _
_ Oh man that sounds so complicated, what do I do? HA! It is actually simple as it gets like most of our settings. Changes can be made in REAL time while listening to music or background levels. Literally move a pair of jumpers and listen to the change or lack of change. If you like it better, leave it. If you like it less, change it back. Yes, life can be that simple! As with ALL settings on our designs. There is virtually NO right or wrong. Just what sounds best to your ears and THAT is what matters.

Thanks to a great customer Eric for helping spot the combination of things that increased hiss with his IEM's_​*A few final thoughts:*

YMMV, as ears and hearing will vary.  Though the Ember is excellent and seems worthy of a trial.
I own a modified Ember 1 and haven't heard the Ember 2 yet (but this subject has me seriously considering upgrading)!
I don't have the SE846 either, though the impedance of my A18 Tsar CIEM is listed as 9 Ohms on the 64 Audio website.
An Input Attenuation module with higher value resistors (than those Jeremy soldered to my Ember 1) _might_ resolve the 9 Ohm IEM hiss issue.


----------



## bugeyed

I tried my Ember 2 with the AQ Nighthawk headphones (25 Ohms) & was not happy with the level of hum I was hearing. I don't have the preamp outputs connected to anything, but noticed that, if I touch the gnd on the jacks, the hum is sufficiently reduced. Can ground to the Ember or is there another way to deal with the hum. I also hear too much hum with the HE400i (35 Ohms). Hum is present when using 12AU7 or 6SN7. Unit sounds fine with HD650 & other higher Z phones.
Kev


----------



## Solrighal

bugeyed said:


> I tried my Ember 2 with the AQ Nighthawk headphones (25 Ohms) & was not happy with the level of hum I was hearing. I don't have the preamp outputs connected to anything, but noticed that, if I touch the gnd on the jacks, the hum is sufficiently reduced. Can ground to the Ember or is there another way to deal with the hum. I also hear too much hum with the HE400i (35 Ohms). Hum is present when using 12AU7 or 6SN7. Unit sounds fine with HD650 & other higher Z phones.
> Kev



What gain setting are you using?


----------



## bugeyed (Apr 4, 2018)

Solrighal said:


> What gain setting are you using?


Set to low, w/am.
I don't understand why grounding (touching jack gnd) helps with hum. Is it not adequately grounded through the power supply/brick?
BTW I am not paying $45 for a 20dB attenuator that I can build myself. 
Kev


----------



## Solrighal

That's how it should be set. When I used to use heavy interconnects that dropped down behind my desk I could occasionally cause a hum if I moved the cables. I only use high-impedance cans these days but even so I also find w/am to offer more than enough gain.


----------



## ericr

bugeyed said:


> I tried my Ember 2 with the AQ Nighthawk headphones (25 Ohms) & was not happy with the level of hum I was hearing. I don't have the preamp outputs connected to anything, but noticed that, if I touch the gnd on the jacks, the hum is sufficiently reduced. Can ground to the Ember or is there another way to deal with the hum. I also hear too much hum with the HE400i (35 Ohms). Hum is present when using 12AU7 or 6SN7. Unit sounds fine with HD650 & other higher Z phones.
> Kev



Something is not right.  Contact Jeremy at Garage 1217 and I'm sure he will help you figure it out.

Let us know what the problem was.


----------



## HOWIE13

bugeyed said:


> I tried my Ember 2 with the AQ Nighthawk headphones (25 Ohms) & was not happy with the level of hum I was hearing. I don't have the preamp outputs connected to anything, but noticed that, if I touch the gnd on the jacks, the hum is sufficiently reduced. Can ground to the Ember or is there another way to deal with the hum. I also hear too much hum with the HE400i (35 Ohms). Hum is present when using 12AU7 or 6SN7. Unit sounds fine with HD650 & other higher Z phones.
> Kev



Mains hum problems are documented with Ember-just Google 'Project Ember Hum' and you will get a flavour of the problems. It's very position, equipment and tube dependent. Mostly it's trial and error when finding a solution. I managed to remove a hum by connecting an earth wire between one of Ember's feet to an earth point on my CD player. Sometimes you can determine electrical equipment responsible for the hum, like a Freezer, and move it to a different socket. It's a pain to hear but very rewarding if you can eradicate it.


----------



## timjclark

When I bought my Ember 9 months ago I had a bunch of electronic interference/noise and I was second guessing my first foray into tubes. In my home office I have a ton of stuff going on in there. After a full powerdown I found the offender, the base unit to my hands free phone headset. I moved it to the other side of my laptop and voila all was sorted.  When I swap in a 12au7 tube I need to move the Ember a few inches to avoid some other interference source. The sound quality of the Ember is worth it IMO. Ymmv. Cheers y’all. 



HOWIE13 said:


> Mains hum problems are documented with Ember-just Google 'Project Ember Hum' and you will get a flavour of the problems. It's very position, equipment and tube dependent. Mostly it's trial and error when finding a solution. I managed to remove a hum by connecting an earth wire between one of Ember's feet to an earth point on my CD player. Sometimes you can determine electrical equipment responsible for the hum, like a Freezer, and move it to a different socket. It's a pain to hear but very rewarding if you can eradicate it.


----------



## erein1982

timjclark said:


> When I bought my Ember 9 months ago I had a bunch of electronic interference/noise and I was second guessing my first foray into tubes. In my home office I have a ton of stuff going on in there. After a full powerdown I found the offender, the base unit to my hands free phone headset. I moved it to the other side of my laptop and voila all was sorted.  When I swap in a 12au7 tube I need to move the Ember a few inches to avoid some other interference source. The sound quality of the Ember is worth it IMO. Ymmv. Cheers y’all.


Thanks for your post.  I have an Ember on the way and am very interested in picking up a Polaris.

I tested an ember and it drove my Hifiman Edition X v2 fantastically.


----------



## Bruc3

Im looking at buying an amp for my HD650. Is project ember a good match?

Is there another amp i should consider for the money?


----------



## Tuneslover

Bruc3 said:


> Im looking at buying an amp for my HD650. Is project ember a good match?
> 
> Is there another amp i should consider for the money?



Indeed it is, I have the HD650 (with Dekoni pads) and HD6XX and I generally dedicate these headphones to Ember.

I hear the Bottle Head Crack is another extremely  good match.


----------



## Rhamnetin

Bruc3 said:


> Im looking at buying an amp for my HD650. Is project ember a good match?
> 
> Is there another amp i should consider for the money?



The Ember II seems overpriced to me (I do own one too). I really don't see what technical improvements it has over the Schiit Magni 3. It's just more configurable due to gain switches and the like as well as tube rolling.

The Bottlehead Crack (especially with the Speedball upgrade) is the way to go and you can find built ones for sale here on Head-Fi and on other sites plenty often. It is a very different type of amp than the Ember II, but ideal for high impedance headphones like the HD 650, and I've found that the HD 650 and HD 600 really need good OTL or OTC tube amps to sound their best (my HD 6XX bores me out of the Ember II). Also the Bottlehead Crack might be the only tube amp for the price that runs the tubes within their specification (but who knows).


----------



## Tuneslover

Rhamnetin said:


> The Ember II seems overpriced to me (I do own one too). I really don't see what technical improvements it has over the Schiit Magni 3. It's just more configurable due to gain switches and the like as well as tube rolling.
> 
> The Bottlehead Crack (especially with the Speedball upgrade) is the way to go and you can find built ones for sale here on Head-Fi and on other sites plenty often. It is a very different type of amp than the Ember II, but ideal for high impedance headphones like the HD 650, and I've found that the HD 650 and HD 600 really need good OTL or OTC tube amps to sound their best (my HD 6XX bores me out of the Ember II). Also the Bottlehead Crack might be the only tube amp for the price that runs the tubes within their specification (but who knows).



Hmmm I really like the HD6XX with my Modi MB and Ember II and I certainly don't find them boring as you put it.  I'm curious what headphones do you find exciting with the Ember?  Thanks.


----------



## Rhamnetin

Tuneslover said:


> Hmmm I really like the HD6XX with my Modi MB and Ember II and I certainly don't find them boring as you put it.  I'm curious what headphones do you find exciting with the Ember?  Thanks.



Well at that point we are really just talking about other headphones. The Ember II is not bad and it can drive an HD 650 just fine, don't get me wrong. I just think it's overpriced, it seems to me in the same category as the Schiit Magni 3 but with tube rolling (but if you spend money on tube rolling with this amp, then you could have instead gotten something much better).


----------



## Tuneslover

Rhamnetin said:


> Well at that point we are really just talking about other headphones. The Ember II is not bad and it can drive an HD 650 just fine, don't get me wrong. I just think it's overpriced, it seems to me in the same category as the Schiit Magni 3 but with tube rolling (but if you spend money on tube rolling with this amp, then you could have instead gotten something much better).



Well I can't disagree with you that the Ember might be considered a bit pricey, especially compared to the Vali 2 that I also owned.  Although the Vali 2 sounded quite good I find the Ember to be a superior amp and after 6 months I ended up selling the Vali 2 because I absolutely preferred the more spacious and better detail retrieval I was getting from the Ember.  The Ember is more versatile and configurable allowing a wider array of 12V tubes which the Vali 2 can't do.  As for headphones I prefer the HD650 (with Dekoni pads) and HD6XX (stock pads) the most of my headphones but I'm interested in knowing what other headphones pair well with the Ember.  What other headphones have you tried with the Ember?


----------



## Rhamnetin

Tuneslover said:


> Well I can't disagree with you that the Ember might be considered a bit pricey, especially compared to the Vali 2 that I also owned.  Although the Vali 2 sounded quite good I find the Ember to be a superior amp and after 6 months I ended up selling the Vali 2 because I absolutely preferred the more spacious and better detail retrieval I was getting from the Ember.  The Ember is more versatile and configurable allowing a wider array of 12V tubes which the Vali 2 can't do.  As for headphones I prefer the HD650 (with Dekoni pads) and HD6XX (stock pads) the most of my headphones but I'm interested in knowing what other headphones pair well with the Ember.  What other headphones have you tried with the Ember?



To me it is vice versa: finding an amp for a headphone, not the other way around. But I have used the HiFiMan HE-560 and ZMF Blackwood with it. It's a rather neutral sounding amp to me, more on the forward side I suppose, so most headphones should have good synergy with it.


----------



## HOWIE13 (Jun 29, 2018)

Bruc3 said:


> Im looking at buying an amp for my HD650. Is project ember a good match?
> 
> Is there another amp i should consider for the money?



HD650 is a 'forgiving' headphone in that it can match, electrically and sonically, many types of amps, including Garage1217 amps. Which amp will give you the best sound for your money will depend on how you like to hear your music. I'm afraid there is no substitute for auditioning, though these forums can help you to short list. Schiit allow you 15 days to audition, but I don't think Garage 1217 do. I enjoy my HD650 with Vali2 and Ember, with the latter being more versatile, and expensive. If you enjoy different genres of music and aim to use different headphones, either now or in the future, then I would say Ember is potentially a very good option for you.


----------



## techboy

I would get Ember with Sonarworks or Kameleon.

Ember + Sonarworks/Kameleon + HD 650 is hard to beat.

I prefer it by a huge margin to my MCTH which in itself is supposed to beat pretty much everything under $500/600 or so.


----------



## Rhamnetin

techboy said:


> I would get Ember with Sonarworks or Kameleon.
> 
> Ember + Sonarworks/Kameleon + HD 650 is hard to beat.
> 
> I prefer it by a huge margin to my MCTH which in itself is supposed to beat pretty much everything under $500/600 or so.



I think an Ember II + HD 650 is quite easy to beat, same for the Cavalli Tube Hybrid knowing the design and build quality issues that plague their amps (though the Massdrop ones are supposedly much better). 

I find the HD 650/600 very genre limited. Great for chamber music, pretty good for larger classical ensembles though lacks the sound stage and imaging and layering to be great, probably very good for pop and jazz, mediocre to lackluster for rock and metal and rap due to bass rolloff and lack of impact.

Essentially those headphones are not ideal for any fast or hard hitting music. They are not well rounded at all I say.


----------



## techboy

Rhamnetin said:


> I think an Ember II + HD 650 is quite easy to beat, same for the Cavalli Tube Hybrid knowing the design and build quality issues that plague their amps (though the Massdrop ones are supposedly much better).
> 
> I find the HD 650/600 very genre limited. Great for chamber music, pretty good for larger classical ensembles though lacks the sound stage and imaging and layering to be great, probably very good for pop and jazz, mediocre to lackluster for rock and metal and rap due to bass rolloff and lack of impact.
> 
> Essentially those headphones are not ideal for any fast or hard hitting music. They are not well rounded at all I say.



If you don’t like the HD 650, that’s your personal opinion. 

Assuming you only want the HD 650 the Ember is very good under 500.


----------



## techboy

And the problems you’re talking about with the 650 disappear when you add Sonarworks.


----------



## Rhamnetin (Jun 30, 2018)

techboy said:


> If you don’t like the HD 650, that’s your personal opinion.
> 
> Assuming you only want the HD 650 the Ember is very good under 500.



And you thinking the HD 650 is hard to beat is just your personal opinion. I at least worded my opinion without using such definitive words.



techboy said:


> And the problems you’re talking about with the 650 disappear when you add Sonarworks.









No, that's not going to transform the HD 650 into something it is not. It will not magically add the bass extension, bass impact, openness, and PRaT that it lacks.


----------



## bugeyed (Jun 30, 2018)

I use my Ember 2 with HD 650 & H400i phones. I built an attenuator to use my Nighthawk. Without the attenuator, I was getting too much hum unless I connected the Ember Gnd to an earth gnd.  I like the sound of the Ember for most all higher Z phones. The Nighthawks are 25 ohms Z & I haven't decided if I like them with the Ember + attenuator. I like the Ember more than my LD MK IV SE, but they are close. Depends on the phones & my mood. The LD does not work with the Nighthawks at all because of the low Z.
My Ember with mahogany case.


----------



## techboy

Rhamnetin said:


> And you thinking the HD 650 is hard to beat is just your personal opinion. I at least worded my opinion without using such definitive words.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, that’s exactly what it adds. You clearly have no experience with Sonarworks. Try it before you comment further.


----------



## Tuneslover

Rhamnetin said:


> And you thinking the HD 650 is hard to beat is just your personal opinion. I at least worded my opinion without using such definitive words.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's painfully clear to everyone that the HD650 and Ember combo is not your cup of tea...we got it!  Perhaps you could share what headphones in your humble opinion are a good match with this terrific amp so that we can all benefit from your insight.  Seriously.  Perhaps the reality is that Ember is not what you consider to be "your" amp...that's fair.  However please do enlighten us what your dream amp, headphone or DAC is.  Seriously.


----------



## Rhamnetin (Jun 30, 2018)

Tuneslover said:


> It's painfully clear to everyone that the HD650 and Ember combo is not your cup of tea...we got it!  Perhaps you could share what headphones in your humble opinion are a good match with this terrific amp so that we can all benefit from your insight.  Seriously.  Perhaps the reality is that Ember is not what you consider to be "your" amp...that's fair.  However please do enlighten us what your dream amp, headphone or DAC is.  Seriously.



I've already made other suggestions to the person seeking an amp for the HD 650 (Bottlehead Crack, I'll toss in a suggestion for the Millett Hybrid too), and even answered the very question you just asked previously (on the same page too). Forums never change; when one person offers a different opinion that is not positive, people get super defensive and often to an irrational extent and start berating said person with irrelevant, totally off topic questions. People are allowed to declare that so and so product is unbeatable for a price, but when one suggests it is not the end all be all solution, that's when problems start!

One of my major points earlier was that I fail to see a technical reason for the Ember II costing 3x more than a Schiit Magni 3 (being able to auto bias different tubes will add some cost but not 3x). Keep that in mind when considering the value of the Ember II.


----------



## Tuneslover

Rhamnetin said:


> I've already made other suggestions to the person seeking an amp for the HD 650 (Bottlehead Crack, I'll toss in a suggestion for the Millett Hybrid too), and even answered the very question you just asked previously (on the same page too). Forums never change; when one person offers a different opinion that is not positive, people get super defensive and often to an irrational extent and start berating said person with irrelevant, totally off topic questions. People are allowed to declare that so and so product is unbeatable for a price, but when one suggests it is not the end all be all solution, that's when problems start!
> 
> One of my major points earlier was that I fail to see a technical reason for the Ember II costing 3x more than a Schiit Magni 3. Keep that in mind when considering the value of the Ember II.



I DO agree with you that we ALL have a right to express our opinions.  I and MANY others support the HD650 Ember combo.  Peace.  Over and out.


----------



## SuperU

I love my Ember. It sounds great with my LCD-X. 

I've been working so much that I've not had time for it. I use an Apogee Duet and have taken to using it in my music production. Wish I could somehow run my mic in through it but listen back through my Ember. Haven't figured that one out unfortunately.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001 (Jun 30, 2018)

Perceived value has a lot to do with features and benefits to the user. That certainly causes a big variation between all of us.

I happened on to the Ember by reading about it on this forum. It was my 5th attempt to learn about amps and their synergy good and not so good with different headphones. It has matched up from excellent to outstanding with two HD series Sennheiser s and the 5_different planars  that I have used with it.

Different tubes and definitely the jumper settings have a big impact on the quality of what you hear with different headphones. Being able to change the jumpers on the fly is a huge plus as you can hear what sounds best to you immediately.

I am glad that I found out about the Ember here on H F. I run my set up through a SYS and have two amps that I can listen to. Ember gets about 90% of the play time and has excellent synergy with my headphones.

There are a lot of excellent cans and amps out there in the market place. We are fortunate to have so many great products to choose from!


----------



## Rhamnetin

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> Perceived value has a lot to do with features and benefits to the user. That certainly causes a big variation between all of us.
> 
> I happened on to the Ember by reading about it on this forum. It was my 5th attempt to learn about amps and their synergy good and not so good with different headphones. It has matched up from excellent to outstanding with two HD series Sennheiser s and the 5_different planars  that I have used with it.
> 
> ...



I disagree about there being many great amps to choose from. Most amps seem to have fundamental flaws, things like $500 to $1,500 amps even without much class A power, inferior power supply designs, build quality issues, tube hybrids not running tubes within their optimal specs, and/or overpricing. The guys at head-case opening up popular amps and exposing these flaws are really doing us a service. Not that I am pointing fingers at the Ember II since I'm not, but one has to do a lot of research before buying a headphone amp because there are massive variations in quality (even among popular products) in every price range.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

I am not an EE and am not qualified to talk about what is under the hood.  It is what comes out the headphone jack that gets my attention.

I didn't know beans from Apple butter when I started my can and amp learning experience. Read a lot of stuff and watched a lot of videos and got my head all turned around.

Started with a $50 dac/amp and an HD 650. Blah! Then went more $ is better. $500 amp, better but not Wow.  So I understand what you are saying about what is under the hood can be deceiving and in some cases over priced.

History lesson: Back in the last century, the cutting edge was the most wattage amp/tuner that you could afford, a 20 foot cord and a pair of Koss headphones,(Sennheiser if you were really big time). That was the high fidelity head phone experience. Pretty lame compared to today.

Today's choices are much more diverse and in some cases polarizing with owner's and reviewer's opinions.

My ears like what comes out of my Ember's headphone jack!


----------



## husafreak

The Ember II is a great amp for you to consider! The great thing about the Ember is it can be adjusted for just about any headphone. Shoot them an email and they can even recommend tube choices and settings for your 650's


----------



## timjclark

I'm glad to see some activity on this thread.  I've had my Ember 2.1 for about a year now and I'm very well pleased with it.  I used a borrowed pair of HD600's on it for ~5 months while I waited for my HD6xx to arrive from Massdrop.  I think they pair quite nicely.  I'd love to hear what tubes you like best.  My main music genre's are classic & prog rock, jazz and bluegrass.  

I keep a GE 6DJ8 chrome top in mine most of the time.  I picked up a cheap 12ax7 on eBay a while back which I like too, but I suspect this particular tube is getting on in age.

I really want to try out a Project Kameleon to tweak the 6xx's a tad.  My primary sources are my Arcam DVD player and a turntable which is why the Kameleon makes most sense for me.  I have not dabbled with hi-res audio yet and my computer dac is a Dragonfly 1.0 which is a huge improvement over the 1/8" output on my MacPro, but I've not decided on what DAC to go with to upgrade the DF.

One other thing I'd like to mention that the Ember and my vintage receiver (Pioneer SX-727) sound very similar.  If the 727 was as quiet as the Ember, I'd consider using the 727 for headphone work.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

There is a lot of Ember tube rolling info on the dedicated thread. I have tried about 15 different tubes in mine. None of them sounded terrible and 4 or 5 really stood out. A 6DJ8 Bugle Boy, a 6SN7 Ken Rad and my all time fav is the 6SN7 Jungle Tube from Upscale Audio. Like it so much that I bought a back up in case this one burns out. 


On the transport side, I am very happy with the Tascam CD2000. Tascam also makes a model that you can dock an iPhone in to play music that way.  

The SX 737 was my 80's amp too. Sorry that I parted with it.


----------



## hawkwindx

I’ve read that someone could detect a hiss when using the Ember with Fostex TH900’s. 

Has anyone else used the Ember with the TH900’s?


----------



## DavidA

hawkwindx said:


> I’ve read that someone could detect a hiss when using the Ember with Fostex TH900’s.
> 
> Has anyone else used the Ember with the TH900’s?


I did but it was a while ago (2 years+) but I didn't detect any hiss/noise back then, it could also be the tube used at the time the person heard the hiss


----------



## dakanao

Can anyone chime in what the relative differences will be between the HD 650/6xx with the Ember II with a good tube as compared to the Mojo? Both connected separately on their own, because I can only have 1 device. (DavidA told me in PM, but I want more opinions)


----------



## Tuneslover

dakanao said:


> Can anyone chime in what the relative differences will be between the HD 650/6xx with the Ember II with a good tube as compared to the Mojo? Both connected separately on their own, because I can only have 1 device. (DavidA told me in PM, but I want more opinions)



I can't compare the Mojo to the Ember but I can assure you that the Ember pairs very well with the HD650/HD6XX.


----------



## dakanao

Tuneslover said:


> I can't compare the Mojo to the Ember but I can assure you that the Ember pairs very well with the HD650/HD6XX.


Even without any DAC connected to the Ember (just connected to the laptops 3.5mm jack)?


----------



## Bren Arden

Just add a Audiquest Dragonfly Black/Red or some other high quality (fairly priced) DAC-dongle to the laptops USB-port and youre ember will sound great. I can not  compare to the mojo either tho.


----------



## Tuneslover

dakanao said:


> Even without any DAC connected to the Ember (just connected to the laptops 3.5mm jack)?



I don't know that.


----------



## techboy

Bren Arden said:


> Just add a Audiquest Dragonfly Black/Red or some other high quality (fairly priced) DAC-dongle to the laptops USB-port and youre ember will sound great. I can not  compare to the mojo either tho.



With even a basic DAC like DF Black Ember will be in a different league than the Mojo.


----------



## Tuneslover

Does anyone out there have an opinion about how the Genalax Gold Lion 12AT7/ECC81 and 12AX7/ECC83 sound with the Ember?  Any tube recommendations that go good with this amp (reasonably priced ones please).  Thanks!


----------



## DavidA

Tuneslover said:


> Does anyone out there have an opinion about how the Genalax Gold Lion 12AT7/ECC81 and 12AX7/ECC83 sound with the Ember?  Any tube recommendations that go good with this amp (reasonably priced ones please).  Thanks!


I only have the 12AU7 and 6JD8 Gold Lion tubes and to me they are decent, pretty neutral IMO and you can find them on sale once in a while so they are usually reasonable prices.


----------



## Tuneslover (Mar 12, 2019)

DavidA said:


> I only have the 12AU7 and 6JD8 Gold Lion tubes and to me they are decent, pretty neutral IMO and you can find them on sale once in a while so they are usually reasonable prices.



I drove to The Tube Store today and decided to get both of those Gold Lion tubes.

I’m currently listening to the 12AX7 and it’s a very high gain Tube. At slightly lower than 1/4 volume, set to mid, the Ember is about as loud as I would listen to with my HD58X. A fair amount of Tube hum between tracks, I hope that settles down after some usage. My HD650 sounds less intense, if that’s an accurate way to describe it. The Tube gets very warm, bordering on hot.

The Gold Lion 12AT7 is slightly quieter but not by much on the volume dial with the HD58X. It too has a bit of hum but not as much as the 12AX7.  I set the Ember to Low and this tube sounds very good with the HD650, probably the best I’ve heard this headphone sound. 

Both tubes sound quite detailed with good bass punch. I like them straight out of the box. I assume they’ll improve with time.

The RCA 12AU7 is the quietest volume wise and hum wise and appears to be a good match for the Ember.

Let the Tube rolling fun begin.


----------



## DavidA

I usually stay away from 12AX7 and 12AT7 due to the higher gain which makes volume control too sensitive for me and also to noise issues that I've had with a few times.  
With 6JD8/6922 I've had channel imbalance with some of them so its hit or miss but the do have better dynamics to me in general.


----------



## FritzS

What are the differences between Project Starlight, Sunrise III, Horizon III, Ember II, Solstice,   // Polaris?
Where I could found schemas from all to compare them?
http://garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_004.htm
http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember


----------



## Tunkejazz

It has been a while since I checked this, but as far as I can remember:
Polaris: Solid state amp works with most headphones in terms of impedance (class AB amplification).
Ember: tube pre-amp + solid state output stage, works with most headphones (AB amplification).
Solstice: similar to Ember but less powerful. It can also be used with 12SN7 tubes, which is quite nice! Ember cannot be used with those tubes.
Sunrise/Horizon: Very similar amps, but they are designed to work with headphones of different impedance (starlight 16-300 ohm, horizon 300-600 ohm). IIRC, these ones were class A amplification.

I have Ember at home and Polaris at work. Really like both, as they have similar sound signature.

Maybe someone else can complement/correct my answer...


----------



## Cho Worsh (Sep 14, 2022)

Tuneslover said:


> Does anyone out there have an opinion about how the Genalax Gold Lion 12AT7/ECC81 and 12AX7/ECC83 sound with the Ember?  Any tube recommendations that go good with this amp (reasonably priced ones please).  Thanks!


Try a 12AY7. Lower gain than 12ax7 or 12at7 and better sounding than 12au7 in my opinion with the Ember.


----------



## HOWIE13

I didn't need the high gain of 12AX7 tubes much and hiss was sometimes problematic with lower impedance cans, but I did like Mullards and Tung-Sol 'long Plates', something like this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tung-sol...508694?hash=item56cc398356:g:KaEAAOSwEIFdllyl


----------



## VRacer-111

Recently got a Project Ember for nearly half price from another member and really loving it... will be letting go of the Gustard H10s I have and quite a few of my headphones because of it - the sound I'm getting from it is what I've been searching for since started this journey a few years back. Came with a Russian vintage 6SN7GT tube & adapter and JJ Electronic 12BH7-A tube.

Been using it at work with my Porta Pros and modded HD58X with laptop & DFR since getting it midweek... and have been brought to tears. Bring it home and connect it to my Gustard X20U DAC and it gets even better. I see lots of tubes in my future and much less headphones... I know what kind of sound I want from my headphones and which headphones I really like, and with the help of the Ember can get rid of at least half of my headphones. VERY happy with this amp and looking at getting a Project Polaris to compliment it and hopefully pair better with the DT-177X GO, which I really want to keep but tube amps seem to not be it's thing.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

Save your $ vracer. That Russian Jungle tube that you got with the Ember is about as good as it gets, imo.

  Koover found them and they kick @ss. I wasted a lot of $ before I  got one.


----------



## Cho Worsh

This is probably covered in this thread somewhere but does anyone know a source for a high quality linear power supply to use with the Ember? According to Jeremy the Ember uses a 48V power supply.


----------



## VRacer-111 (Nov 16, 2019)

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> Save your $ vracer. That Russian Jungle tube that you got with the Ember is about as good as it gets, imo.
> 
> Koover found them and they kick @ss. I wasted a lot of $ before I  got one.



The 6SN7 Russian tube is 'okay' but I actually prefer the JJ Electronic 12BH7-A to it. I use EQ along with the tube amp and prefer the cleaner, more detailed sound with better separation on the 12BH7-A.

I would have liked to save money but just had to know for sure on certain legendary held tubes...especially before supply is no longer available. Three NOS vintage ones just came in and trying to decide which one to try first:






MAZDA/Brimar 6CG7/6FQ7, Amperex 7308 gold pin, and Cifte 12AU7... not like any are going to loose much value, will only get more sought after when supply is gone. Will give each a listen for enough hours (logging time powered) to decide whether they are what I'm looking for, if any don't work for me will rebox and sell.

*P.S.* The Amperex 7308 is first up...very noticeable difference between the JJ Electronic 12BH7-A and it heard from first notes... noticeably clearer and more detailed with more mid emphasis. Great on darker headphones (my modded HD58X and Porta Pros) while prefer the 12BH7-A more on my brighter headphones (DT-177X GO and KSC75.)


----------



## VRacer-111

And what's better than a Project Ember? ... two of them!






 Just got in a second used unit that came with an electro-harmonix 6H30Pi tube ... price could not be passed up. Both Embers cost me less than a single brand new one would!  So now I have one for work and one for home. I tell you what... this 6H30Pi tube it came with is pretty sweet sounding - really digging it! Anyone know the expected life from a 6H30Pi type tube? They aren't too expensive, so I'd be fine buying a couple more if they actually were on the lower end of the life scale for a tube...


----------



## timjclark

That's awesome VRacer!  I'm completely unfamiliar with that 6H30Pi tube.  My two favorites are 12ax7 and 6DJ8 in my Ember II.  But now I kinda want to try the one you suggested..


----------



## Tuneslover (Dec 11, 2019)

VRacer-111 said:


> And what's better than a Project Ember? ... two of them!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I discovered the EH 6H30Pi earlier this year and yes it's a nice sounding tube.  Another nice old tube is the General Electric 6CG7/6fQ7.  Both of them are regularly player on my Ember.  A really awesome sounding tube is the JJ Electronic E88CC.


----------



## Tyranids

I was thinking of picking up one of these for a Sennheiser HD 660 S. Any thoughts on that pairing?


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I've been searching and searching for any comparisons between Ember and Lyr 3 and haven't been able to find anything. I know there has been bad mouthing about Ember from the Lyr 3 camp on the interwebs. But practically it doesn't help much.
Does anybody have an opinion?


----------



## VRacer-111 (Jan 7, 2020)

Well, I just got in 4 tubes I ordered, one being a new Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi. It shows it tested at 19,000 & 19,100 hours... so they seem to have very decent life expectancy. Right now comparing a new Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 to the original 6H30Pi I had...






the 12AY7 is pretty impressive right out the box...overall smooth with slightly rolled off highs but still pretty clean and clear sounding, and the low end is just massively powerful and rich feeling without being bloated. It tested at 24,000 and 25,000 hours and was $24 for the Platinum grade from Upscale Audio... absolutely great match for the Porta Pros.

The 6H30Pi does have better top end presentation, but the mids and low end of this 12AY7 with just 3.5 hrs of run time on it now is more organic and powerful sounding... really sweet sounding! I've been very happy jamming to with the Porta Pros - the ~50Hz punch is just so visceral with them on that tube and my EQ settings... Tron Legacy album is something else.

The other two tubes I ordered and got in are a Mullard 12AT7 and Tung-Sol 12AU7W.


----------



## RoyGB

@VRacer-111 come share over on the Ember Tube Rolling thread.

It seems like this thread is kinda dead in comparison. Even the tube rolling thread is very quiet but it seems like it is a bit more active than over here.


----------



## techboy

By the way, I have tried the following amps since.

Magni 3 - Not as smooth, super small sound stage, weak bass, but has a few advantages over Ember. Ember wins though. Easy.

Sapphire - Not as musical but cleaner, crisper. But doesn’t sound as engaging. Ember won for me.

DarkVoice 336 SE - Not as musical or sweet. But thicker (in a good way) and has a larger soundstage. Ember wins.

MCTH - Sucks. Much worse than a Magni 3 but with a larger soundstage. Ember wins.

Asus E1 Muses Amp section - Ember wins. Muses is harsh.

Headphone was HD 650. DACs varied perhaps but mostly Mimby.

Beta 22 - More musical and sweeter than Ember with deeper and tighter bass. Ember was crisper and more forward. Beta22 was slightly better. But both were very good. DAC was Assemblage perhaps.


----------



## techboy

BobMonkhouse said:


> I've been searching and searching for any comparisons between Ember and Lyr 3 and haven't been able to find anything. I know there has been bad mouthing about Ember from the Lyr 3 camp on the interwebs. But practically it doesn't help much.
> Does anybody have an opinion?



Many people on the other forum are biased against the Ember. Don’t believe the nay sayers.


----------



## techboy

Tyranids said:


> I was thinking of picking up one of these for a Sennheiser HD 660 S. Any thoughts on that pairing?



I use Ember with 650 but with Sonarworks. Insane pairing.

I guess it will be the same with 660S. Get a Kameleon in line filter or Sonarworks, and then there isn’t much that can beat Ember under $1000 with 660S i feel. i haven’t heard the 660s though.


----------



## dakanao

techboy said:


> By the way, I have tried the following amps since.
> 
> Magni 3 - Not as smooth, super small sound stage, weak bass, but has a few advantages over Ember. Ember wins though. Easy.
> 
> ...


Have you heard the Chord Mojo with the HD650?


----------



## techboy

dakanao said:


> Have you heard the Chord Mojo with the HD650?



I have heard HD 800 and T1 and others with Mojo. Sounded veiled crap. The same headphones with other setups like Ember sound awesome.


----------



## Tuneslover

I love my Ember with Modi Multibit and HD58X.


----------



## Tomcat

*A linear power supply for the Project Ember 2.1*

There is very little information about how the Project Ember performs when used with an external linear power supply. 

I have tried it and I'm glad I did. With a decent PSU the Ember reaches an entirely different level of performance. 

I've been somewhat sceptical about the merits of the switch mode supply my assembled Ember 2.1 came with. As far as SMPS go, the GSM40A48-P1J from Mean Well's medical adaptor series is probably quite nice, but SMPS are notorious for the amount of ripple and noise they generate. A couple of months ago I had gotten a Chinese "Zerozone" linear power supply for my old "Pro-Ject DAC Box DS": That worked wonders. Reason enough to try it with the Ember as well. The Ember needs a 48V supply and those aren't easy to find. I managed to get a Chinese power supply via the Canadian Ebay platform. They advertised it as "Finished 65W hifi linear Power supply DC48V 1A / Ultra low noise LPS L6-4". Its R-core transformer is specified at 65W and the Chinese love to quote the higher figure. In reality it puts out 48W though, equivalent to 48V at 1A current. That's even a little higher than the 40W rating of the Ember's Mean Well SMPS. So, if the Ember has higher current draw (which tends to be during the inital warm-up phase of certain tubes with higher heater current) the PSU can provide it. 

Additionally, I bought a DC umbilical cable from a different Chinese seller. This umbilical uses a Canare 4S6 Star Quad (speaker) cable and is terminated with a GX16-2 plug on the PSU side and a Oyaide DC-2.1G plug on the amp's side.

The result?

To my ears, the sonic improvement is as big or bigger than anything I ever achieved by tube-rolling. With the linear power supply the Ember sounds refined. The treble has a silkiness that just wasn't there before. Massed strings are simply gorgeous. Another thing noticeable with orchestral music is the far superior resolution. At times, the appearance of more "detail" comes at the price of reduced temporal cohesion and musicality. Not in this case. There is greater musical clarity with the PSU, superior realism and more emotional engagement. The Ember becomes more resolving in the sense that it simply gets out of the way of the musical performance. There's more weight and physical presence to instruments as well. And there's more bass slam. With the linear power supply, the amp has both: superior micro- and macrodynamics.

Now, is it worth it? I paid an additional 50 percent of the price of the assembled Ember for the Chinese PSU plus DC cable (including transport and customs). I love what the linear PSU does to the Ember's performance but at that 150 percent price point there might be other amps to  consider as well. And it didn't stop there. I invested in adapters and attenuators as well. 

Some background info on my Ember setup. When it comes to tubes, I much prefer 6SN7s with Garage1217's adapter to anything from the noval families. In the Ember, novals all have a somewhat shouty and forward quality to my ears (the Russian 6N6P being least objectionable). I could say I never found a 6SN7 I didn't like in the amp, but actually: My favorite 6SN7 is a Sylvania 7N7, the "loctal" twin of early 6SN7GTs, electrically identical but with the loctal instead of the octal base (a great way to get very good NOS performance dirt cheap, btw). This means I have a loctal-to-octal adapter (by Jacmusic) on top of the 6SN7-adapter from Jeremy. The headphone I use almost exclusively is an AudioQuest Nighthawk Carbon, with modern pleather pads, NightBird Model One cable and the -20dB attenuator plug from Garage 1217. The Nighthwak with its rather low impedance and high sensitivity seems to like the attenuation. 

Do I regret the effort that went into tweaking my Ember's performance? No, I'd say it was worth it (as any self-respecting, i.e. obsessed audiophile would). Sonically, I am utterly pleased with the new properly powered Ember. It took me some time to get there. But I arrived.


----------



## dakanao

Tomcat said:


> *A linear power supply for the Project Ember 2.1*
> 
> There is very little information about how the Project Ember performs when used with an external linear power supply.
> 
> ...


It’s quite ironic how the maker of the Ember, doesn’t believe in clean power supply improvements because it isn’t measured on audiosciencereview, yet the differences are very clear 😅


----------



## Sonic Defender

People making a claim isn't evidence, and it certainly isn't clear, it is an opinion. If it can't be measured, there is a really good chance that it cannot be heard. Ultimately it is great that people can enjoy this hobby their way, and they should. Not a problem at all if you don't believe in scientific evidence, you don't have to and nobody should tell you that you have to, but be respectful to those who differ in their opinion from yours. I will bet that the maker of the Ember who you say doesn't believe in the value of over-specified power supplies (there is of course a minimum standard that has to be reached) at least tried to reach an educated opinion and they shouldn't be mocked because they believe in scientific evidence.

There are a handful of members at ASR who collectively have more knowledge and experience designing, testing and implementing audio components than the entire Head-fi community past and present put together. They have earned the right not to be mocked simply because they have publicly stated that they believe in evidence. Let me ask you, would you take medication or drive a car on the highway that had no scientific evidence that it worked or was safe? So why is evidence good when it keeps you and your family safe and suddenly worth mocking when it doesn't agree with your opinion?


----------



## dakanao (Aug 24, 2021)

Sonic Defender said:


> People making a claim isn't evidence, and it certainly isn't clear, it is an opinion. If it can't be measured, there is a really good chance that it cannot be heard. Ultimately it is great that people can enjoy this hobby their way, and they should. Not a problem at all if you don't believe in scientific evidence, you don't have to and nobody should tell you that you have to, but be respectful to those who differ in their opinion from yours. I will bet that the maker of the Ember who you say doesn't believe in the value of over-specified power supplies (there is of course a minimum standard that has to be reached) at least tried to reach an educated opinion and they shouldn't be mocked because they believe in scientific evidence.
> 
> There are a handful of members at ASR who collectively have more knowledge and experience designing, testing and implementing audio components than the entire Head-fi community past and present put together. They have earned the right not to be mocked simply because they have publicly stated that they believe in evidence. Let me ask you, would you take medication or drive a car on the highway that had no scientific evidence that it worked or was safe? So why is evidence good when it keeps you and your family safe and suddenly worth mocking when it doesn't agree with your opinion?


It’s because the methology of measurements at ASR is off. Measurements are a tool, and tools are only as good as the person using them.

The HD600 and HD650 are measured to have the same FR response, Amir says that they sound exactly the same. Does this suddenly discredit all other measurements done by other people and the subjective experiences of thousands of others who heard both? That is the kind of “science” that is going on there, and the designer of the Ember is exactly sucked into that mentality.

I mean, he himself said there is no sound difference between his Ember and Polaris, and they only differ in features, because he believes all amps and DACS with a certain SINAD sound the same.

Does that discredit the experience of people hearing differences between those 2, and other sites measuring differences? No.

ASR is an ego driven measurement site that favors cheap products, it’s not about the actual science of what makes the differences, and if current measurements the whole story or not.

If you want an actual scientific audio site, hydrogenaudio is the way to go.


----------



## Sonic Defender (Aug 24, 2021)

I read the whole HD600 review there and it seems that the claims made that the sound signatures are very similar are fairly well supported. I owned both the HD600 and 650 at the same time and I can't say that I found any major difference. People have FAR, FAR, FAR too much confidence in their audio memory which is extremely inaccurate after just a few seconds. The act of disconnecting one headphone and connecting another then hitting play really introduces a significant time gap.

Add to this the fact that sighted listening tests are completely irrelevant and regardless of how many people you can trot out who swear they can hear a major difference, that in and of itself is not proof. They could be correct, I am not going to take any position because frankly I haven't done any multiple trial, blind, level matched listening tests so I have no evidence to offer myself, but I know enough not to make any claim because I have no evidence.

My argument isn't about whether or not the two headphones sound the same, I have no position there. Maybe they do sound noticeably different? My point is that the attempt, even if imperfect, to use and arrive at evidence based opinions should not be scoffed at. I believe in the scientific method and I have since I was a young boy and I have never in my life found a reason not to, and that includes the world of audio products and enjoyment. That doesn't mean that I put no stock in the value of the subjective experience, it just means that I acknowledge the limitations of it.

My point was and remains, scoffing at ASR simply because the results discussed there do not agree with your opinion is itself not proof that you have disproven the other theory, it is simply an opinion. Nothing wrong with that, have all the opinions that you wish, I have plenty of my own, but I try to remember that opinions are just that. If I were to go through a medical procedure, you can bet that before I did so, I would want evidence that it worked, not just opinion. For me audio is the same, I believe that measurements do matter, they aren't everything, but they aren't nothing either.


----------



## Tomcat

Guys, there seems to be some confusion here. Amir Majidimehr, founder of Audio Science Review, is not the same person as Frans de Gruijter, aka solderdude of diy-audio-heaven fame (https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/). Frans/solderdude is a Dutch engineer, and, as far as I know, all amp designs offered by Jeremy of Garage 1217 have been developed by Frans. 

Now, while Frans is in the objectivists' camp, I am not quite so sure about Jeremy. I understand Jeremy is more likely to err on the side of subjective musical pleasure. There wouldn't be any tubes in Garage 1217 amps if that wasn't the case. And he wanted that bandwidth limiting feature in the solid-state Polaris purely for sonic reasons, IIRC. 

Frans has reviewed the Sennheiser HD650 (and measured its frequency response), btw. In his review he compares it to the old HD600, and he perceives (and measures) the HD650 as sounding slightly warmer or darker: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-s-se/hd650/

I believe Frans wrote somewhere that he believes that tubes add euphonic distortion, and that's it. I don't subscribe to that idea. I believe if a tube amp sounds subjectively better it doesn't do that because of its harmonic distortion but in spite of it. I believe good tube amps tend to be not as harmful to signal integrity in areas that are of greater psychoacoustic importance. Remember: The whole idea of music reproduction is to create a convincing illusion, to convey musical information and musical emotion to a human listener, not to any kind of meter.  

Just because we usually measure THD-N, that dosen't imply that pretty much every sonic difference between amps can be explained by it. On the contrary: I believe the typical measurements will tell us very little about an amp's real-world performance. Just consider that harmonic distortion is measured with sine waves. When is the last time you listened to music that consisted of sine waves? The spectral content of music is frightfully complex. Add to this that music is a highly dynamic and utterly transient time domain phenomenon: Where are the measurements of time-related signal distortion? Measuring with a steady sine wave signal simply can't tell the whole story.  

Now, any measurement implies the notion of its relevance. But we ought to keep in mind that each measurement just captures a tiny slice of reality. It's an abstraction. The question is whether what we can and do measure is what we ought to measure - whether e.g. harmonic distortion is as psychoacoustically relevant as many believe. Especially for lower and even order harmonics (the kind tubes tend to produce in copious amounts) the hearing threshold is very high. One reason being that our physical hearing apparatus resonates on its own when stimulated by vibrations. Thus especially low and even order harmonics are masked by our ear. The ear itself produces so much second harmonic - the octave above a sine wave - that we need a level of ten percent or more before we can perceive a two-tone interval with an octave above a sinus tone.

I think, the final arbiter of whether a component succeeds in its task - music reproduction for humans - has to be the human brain. To paraphrase the legendary sailor: I like what I like and that's all I like. And as long as anyone of us likes what he or she hears - where's the harm in that?


----------



## Sonic Defender

@Tomcat there is no harm at all. This hobby is first and foremost about the pleasure that you derive from it. For some it is the science and engineering, for others it is the music pure and simple, there is no right or wrong way to enjoy music and despite my preference and bent towards objectivism (which has never deprived me of subjective pleasure I should add) I do actually value the subjective and I very much enjoy reading about the subjective joys others derive from this hobby.


----------



## dakanao (Aug 26, 2021)

Tomcat said:


> Guys, there seems to be some confusion here. Amir Majidimehr, founder of Audio Science Review, is not the same person as Frans de Gruijter, aka solderdude of diy-audio-heaven fame (https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/). Frans/solderdude is a Dutch engineer, and, as far as I know, all amp designs offered by Jeremy of Garage 1217 have been developed by Frans.
> 
> Now, while Frans is in the objectivists' camp, I am not quite so sure about Jeremy. I understand Jeremy is more likely to err on the side of subjective musical pleasure. There wouldn't be any tubes in Garage 1217 amps if that wasn't the case. And he wanted that bandwidth limiting feature in the solid-state Polaris purely for sonic reasons, IIRC.
> 
> ...


Well said. That was my point entirely, measurements only tell a small part of the sound. However the dogma at ASR, is that we know how to measure every single aspect of sound and that we know how everything relates to audibility, which is simply false.

Both the hardcore objectivist, and hardcore subjectivist have a wrong belief system when it comes to audibility of things. However, the objectivists often tend to be extremely arrogant, spousing there false belief systems on anyone who doesn’t agree with their belief, while the subjecitivists are more open for new information.

Frans definitely has more sense than Amir though, his measurement are simply off in a lot of cases, which brings more harm to the designers of amp/DACS because it’s represented as factual.

Therefore the trend is that we get amps/DACS with excellent SINAD, yet with no dynamic variations in them due to being tested with sine waves.

Aha, so Jeremy has the design decision. That indeed explains why the Ember has a tube in it, since Frans has said the Polaris and Ember sound exactly the same.


----------



## Sonic Defender

Measurements are a huge part, a crucial part, but that should not, and does not preclude the subjective enjoyment. I love hard science and yet when I owned a La Figaro 339 I simply loved the romantic glow of the matched, vintage tubes. It was a thing of beauty and I loved it for what it was, not what it wasn't.


----------



## Hyde00

lol not too sure if this is the right thread to ask but........ long story short:

I've had a chance to demo Project Ember II + Mullard CV4024 a long time ago, and remember it being the only time ever it gave me this "out of your head" experience from any audio gear.  But at the time I didn't want to deal with the inconvenience of using tube amp (warm up time, noise, heat.......etc), I did not pursue it at the time.

Now fast forward, few years later I feel like I want to look for that "out of your head" experience again.  Saw someone selling Lyr 3 locally and jumped on it, but still not the same as I remembered (Ember II + Mullard CV4024).

Should I just buy Ember II + Mullard CV4024 again?  Anyone manage to compare Ember II vs Lyr 3 in 2022?

I asked in the Lyr 3 thread but the answer I got is basically buy it and find out.  Which is kind of true but I thought having discussion thread is so I can avoid that LOL.

Thanks in advance.


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## Tomcat

Hyde00 said:


> lol not too sure if this is the right thread to ask but........ long story short:
> 
> (...)


Hm. Not sure whether I am the right one to answer your question. Don't know the the Lyr 3. All I can contribute is my finding that there wasn't any small 9-pin tube I really liked in my Ember. My advice would be to get the adapter (option 2) from Garage1217 (sonically, it easily beats the offerings from Asia) and use a bigger 6SN7 in the Ember. I believe the 6SN7 is inherently more linear than any 9-pin tube. This might be one reason that, to my ears, a 6SN7 sounds bigger and more spacious (in any dimension) than any 9-pin tube I ever tried. And I tried a bunch, 12AT7s included. I have never heard the Mullard CV4024, though.


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## Hyde00

Tomcat said:


> Hm. Not sure whether I am the right one to answer your question. Don't know the the Lyr 3. All I can contribute is my finding that there wasn't any small 9-pin tube I really liked in my Ember. My advice would be to get the adapter (option 2) from Garage1217 (sonically, it easily beats the offerings from Asia) and use a bigger 6SN7 in the Ember. I believe the 6SN7 is inherently more linear than any 9-pin tube. This might be one reason that, to my ears, a 6SN7 sounds bigger and more spacious (in any dimension) than any 9-pin tube I ever tried. And I tried a bunch, 12AT7s included. I have never heard the Mullard CV4024, though.


All good, yeah I was trying to narrow down the issue where I find Lyr 3 sound kind of....... solid state?  But if you said 6SN7 sounds linear then this might explain why.  I tried a few 6SN7 tubes they all sound more or less similar.  But I do agree they sound big, but I didn't like how the treble is polite and focal is a bit recessed.

It's ok I've decided to buy Project Solstice (as oppose to Ember) and see how it goes.  I'll get an adaptor too from Garage 1217 so at least I can compare back to back with the same tubes, then just keep the amp I like in the end.

Thanks!!!


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## dakanao (Nov 4, 2022)

dakanao said:


> Well said. That was my point entirely, measurements only tell a small part of the sound. However the dogma at ASR, is that we know how to measure every single aspect of sound and that we know how everything relates to audibility, which is simply false.
> 
> Both the hardcore objectivist, and hardcore subjectivist have a wrong belief system when it comes to audibility of things. However, the objectivists often tend to be extremely arrogant, spousing there false belief systems on anyone who doesn’t agree with their belief, while the subjecitivists are more open for new information.
> 
> ...


To reiderate: by “objectivists”, I wasn’t meaning ACTUAL objectivists like Solderdude and the people at hydrogenaudio. I was specifically talking about the pseudo objectivists consistent of the majority of ASR members, who have a set amount of theoretical beliefs that they see as absolute fact, when they haven’t actually used scientific methods to come at those conclusions.


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## Astral Abyss

Hyde00 said:


> All good, yeah I was trying to narrow down the issue where I find Lyr 3 sound kind of....... solid state?  But if you said 6SN7 sounds linear then this might explain why.  I tried a few 6SN7 tubes they all sound more or less similar.  But I do agree they sound big, but I didn't like how the treble is polite and focal is a bit recessed.
> 
> It's ok I've decided to buy Project Solstice (as oppose to Ember) and see how it goes.  I'll get an adaptor too from Garage 1217 so at least I can compare back to back with the same tubes, then just keep the amp I like in the end.
> 
> Thanks!!!


Solstice is a good amp.  I would recommend that you also get the 12SN7 adapter (Option 1 or 4) that allows you to use the 12V tubes in it.


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## Hyde00

Astral Abyss said:


> Solstice is a good amp.  I would recommend that you also get the 12SN7 adapter (Option 1 or 4) that allows you to use the 12V tubes in it.


Awesome, you're the 2nd person that recommend it!  It's so hard to find info on Solstice, it's somehow really not popular and everyone else opt for Ember instead lol.  

But yes I plan to use the money saved from not buying Ember and use it to get a few extra adaptors, I'll definitely check them out.

Thanks!!!


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## Astral Abyss

Hyde00 said:


> Awesome, you're the 2nd person that recommend it!  It's so hard to find info on Solstice, it's somehow really not popular and everyone else opt for Ember instead lol.
> 
> But yes I plan to use the money saved from not buying Ember and use it to get a few extra adaptors, I'll definitely check them out.
> 
> Thanks!!!


I own both the Ember and Solstice.  They got me into this hobby and I still think they sound better than a lot of amps costing a lot more.  Plus, they've got tons of settings to play around with.  If you find any 12J5G tube pairs, get yourself an adapter for them as well.   It's where the magic is at.  Kind of like how we all (way earlier in this thread... years ago) gravitated towards 6J5Gs on the Ember because of the clean, musical sound.  Except now 6J5Gs cost too much.

I actually like the Solstice better than Ember because it has a lower noise floor for sensitive headphones and can play all the same tubes plus real 12V tubes.  The Ember is better if you're running inefficient headphones.  It's quite a bit more powerful.  But otherwise the Solstice is the more musical sounding of the two, IMO.


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## jbarrentine

I'm all over this thread deciding if I should move from the Polaris to another amp. The full lineup is really confusing.


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## Hyde00

jbarrentine said:


> I'm all over this thread deciding if I should move from the Polaris to another amp. The full lineup is really confusing.


My friend who had both Ember and Polaris said they have different strengths, but ultimately Ember is better for him.

Polaris has more bass and better extension, but Ember has more of that 3D tubeness and better sense of space lol.  That being said I'm buying Solstice since I have easy to drive headphone (25 Ohm) also as the last few posts mentioned it sounds like Solstice is better if you have easy to drive headphone and Ember has more power for harder to drive headphone.

From what I gathered is that:

Starlight = Entry level

Sunrise = Class A, work for 32-300 Ohm
Horizon =  Class A, work for 120-600 Ohm

Solstice = Auto bias, 1W max output
Ember = Auto bias, 2.4W max ouput

Polaris = Solid State, 2.4W max output

Sunrise / Horizon has different topology and will sound more different to Solstice / Ember.  If you're coming from Polaris then closest is probably Ember.  Also only Ember and Solstice has auto bias, I'm sticking with that because I'm lazy LOL.

Refer to this guide:
http://www.garage1217.com/G1217PRODUCTS/Guide/Comparison Guide.pdf

I've had Polaris and sold it, also demoed Ember for 2 weeks before.  2-3 years later now buying Solstice, confusing story I know LOL.

Otherwise you could probably shoot Jeremy a message, he's been super helpful and replies fast lol.


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## jbarrentine

Hyde00 said:


> My friend who had both Ember and Polaris said they have different strengths, but ultimately Ember is better for him.
> 
> Polaris has more bass and better extension, but Ember has more of that 3D tubeness and better sense of space lol.  That being said I'm buying Solstice since I have easy to drive headphone (25 Ohm) also as the last few posts mentioned it sounds like Solstice is better if you have easy to drive headphone and Ember has more power for harder to drive headphone.
> 
> ...



That is helpful, thanks. 

I have noticed something odd:  Polaris+Qutest+HD660S = large "holographic" sensation. I suppose this is what people mean by holographic. It seems like the soundstage is almost hd800 style huge. I just took out the hd600 and it sounds absolutely nothing like this. the 660S in this setup is a golden headphone, completely and utterly better because of this huge staging.


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