# Audio GD C2C



## insyte

It arrived this afternoon, delivered straight to my house via DHL. Im actually used to picking up stuff from the post office near the airport when packages are shipped via EMS, so DHL is better in this aspect 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Kingwa was kind enough to lower the declared price, so my dues were lowered. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 The box was very difficult to open. It was taped, even triple taped all over. The packaging was filled with the styro stuff. It came with a power cable which I plan to replace with a bigger DIY cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Most have probably seen the pics in the Audio GD website 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 I haven't listened to it yet as I haven't gotten my DAC yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Im letting it burn in with music from my ipod 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Im just happy, my first desktop amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




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 edit : added impressions


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## yepyep_

Congrats. I hope you enjoy it.


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yepyep_* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congrats. I hope you enjoy it._

 

Thanks


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## sandchak

Hey Congrats from me too.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am sure you are going to love it.. let us know your impressions as it grows in you..


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## nsx_23

Ooh, I'm so ordering a Compass (Unless I find a cheap pair of HD650 first). All this Audio GD stuff is making me want one badly.

 Just waiting for the funds to come in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll be very interested in impressions for this.


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Congrats from me too.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am sure you are going to love it.. let us know your impressions as it grows in you.._

 

Thanks. I will post impressions once I get to know the amp.


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## sandchak

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. I will post impressions once I get to know the amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I just looked closely as the pics you posted, in one pic it says sample of speaker and wires.. well, I must say Kingwa sure has a good sense of imagination.. I wonder what hewould be declaring my 40 kg amp.. perhaps samples of bricks and construction materials ??...


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *sandchak* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just looked closely as the pics you posted, in one pic it says sample of speaker and wires.. well, I must say Kingwa sure has a good sense of imagination.. I wonder what hewould be declaring my 40 kg amp.. perhaps samples of bricks and construction materials ??... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I know its kinda funny, but my initial reaction was "OMG did I get the wrong package!!!"


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## tinseljim

Congrats insyte! 

 Look forward to impressions. Especially if you manage to compare it with Compass one day.

 Any chance of seeing what's under the cover?


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tinseljim* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congrats insyte! 

 Look forward to impressions. Especially if you manage to compare it with Compass one day.

 Any chance of seeing what's under the cover?_

 

Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If I have enough money I'll try and get a compass before the promo period ends so i can have an amp/dac for my dorm (if not its the alien+mini^3) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will probably attend a local meet around april, and I think I will be able to compare the C2C against a single ended beta22 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Internal pics from the site


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## Currawong

I'm awaiting my upgraded version of the C2C, which I've also requested be re-tuned to be more neutral-sounding, as its only fault was that the slight bass boost it has doesn't go well with some of my headphones. I can tell you now, it's a significant jump from the Compass headphone amp, especially on high-impedance phones such as Senn HD-600s and HD-650s.


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## Catcher

It looks like a lovely amp. I got my Shanling yesterday so I know how you feel. I thought about buying the C2C before I settled on the Shanling. Id be interested to know how you find it. I'm loving mine. First experience of good headphones and headphone amp.


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## scootermafia

Looks awesome, wonder how it stacks up with M3, probably the same idea...powerful


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Catcher* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It looks like a lovely amp. I got my Shanling yesterday so I know how you feel. I thought about buying the C2C before I settled on the Shanling. Id be interested to know how you find it. I'm loving mine. First experience of good headphones and headphone amp._

 

Yes it really is a nice feeling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm awaiting my upgraded version of the C2C, which I've also requested be re-tuned to be more neutral-sounding, as its only fault was that the slight bass boost it has doesn't go well with some of my headphones. I can tell you now, it's a significant jump from the Compass headphone amp, especially on high-impedance phones such as Senn HD-600s and HD-650s._

 

I can't wait to try it with the HD650. Im still patiently awaiting the arrival of my DAC, which shouldn't take long now, a fellow headfier is bringing it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And I think he is going to get an audio gd dac to replace the stello he is selling me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 More business for Kingwa


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## krmathis

Congratulations! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Hope you put it to the test as soon as your DAC arrive.. Then let us into the details.


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## insyte

I get to open a 2nd box 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 Surprisingly, the stello was even heavier than the C-2C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	














 Not gonna wait anymore for burn in. I'm already listening and I like what I'm hearing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Right now, I'm thinking back, maybe I should have invested on my sources after I got my HD650, rather than getting the K701 and RS-1. But right now, I have better appreciation of my cans, since I know how they sound from just a mini^3 and now this


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## K3cT

I can't wait for proper impressions from the C2C. There's a disturbing lack of information regarding that amp in this area.


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## Kees

Congratulations!.
 Nice setup, have fun listening!


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't wait for proper impressions from the C2C. There's a disturbing lack of information regarding that amp in this area._

 

Well, its because there are only few C2C owners right now, but don't worry, I know someone who is about to receive his REF1 and C-2C and I'm sure he'll make a thorough review, like what he did with the compass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congratulations!.
 Nice setup, have fun listening!_

 

Thanks, I'm definitely enjoying it right now


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## Drosera

Wow, what a great day this must be. Happy too that you are a good photographer, the pictures really help us in sharing your excitement. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Please sleep for a few hours though, so you're also awake enough tomorrow to enjoy them then. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, what a great day this must be. Happy too that you are a good photographer, the pictures really help us in sharing your excitement. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Please sleep for a few hours though, so you're also awake enough tomorrow to enjoy them then. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )_

 

Hehe Im not that good with photography yet, these are just snapshots in P mode, and with my excitement, hehe no time to be artistic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Need to practice more on that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yeah I guess I'll sleep for a few hours


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## paara

Congratulation with your new setup 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looks like you got yourself some very nice units there


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## doping panda

Congratulations on getting your new DAC and amp. I hope you enjoy them. 

 I'm also looking forward to your impressions.


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can't wait for proper impressions from the C2C. There's a disturbing lack of information regarding that amp in this area._

 

I wrote a review on it here.


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## paara

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wrote a review on it here._

 

Has the C2C been changed after you wrote your (by the way very nicely written) review? except for the exterior? I didn`t like the part of excessive high you mentioned in your review (if I remember correctly)


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congratulation with your new setup 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Looks like you got yourself some very nice units there_

 

Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 They are nice to look at 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *doping panda* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Congratulations on getting your new DAC and amp. I hope you enjoy them. 

 I'm also looking forward to your impressions._

 

Yup I just woke up and enjoying them again this morning


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## greenarrow

Nice purchase you got yourself. Congrats. I'm waiting for my Compass to arrive. Can't wait to pair with my K702


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *paara* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has the C2C been changed after you wrote your (by the way very nicely written) review? except for the exterior? I didn`t like the part of excessive high you mentioned in your review (if I remember correctly)_

 

There were no excessive highs. I'd just encountered a known problem with the modified Denon D5000, which is sibilance on some tracks. There are no issues with my HD-600s and the highs, which sound great. I don't know if the circuit on the upgraded C2C I'm receiving is a permanent modification or not. I'll have to ask Kingwa.


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## Hens

Insyte, congratulations on the C-2C! I've had mine for a couple of weeks on the end of a Cayin CD player using the balanced outputs. They're driving a pair of K-702s and are producing sublime music! It's my first headphone set up so can't compare it to anything else, but I'm absolutely gobsmacked by how this combination is sounding. I really had no idea just how great a good pair of cans and a headphone amp could sound. Enjoy!


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *greenarrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice purchase you got yourself. Congrats. I'm waiting for my Compass to arrive. Can't wait to pair with my K702 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I hope you get your compass soon. The AKG will sing properly once it is amped 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hens* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Insyte, congratulations on the C-2C! I've had mine for a couple of weeks on the end of a Cayin CD player using the balanced outputs. They're driving a pair of K-702s and are producing sublime music! It's my first headphone set up so can't compare it to anything else, but I'm absolutely gobsmacked by how this combination is sounding. I really had no idea just how great a good pair of cans and a headphone amp could sound. Enjoy!_

 

Congrats your C-2C too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's also my first desktop amp, and I have to agree that it can easily drive the AKG, though mine is the K701. Love the gigantic soundstage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




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 I actually spent the whole day listening with the HD650, though it took a few hours before my brain forgot the RS-1 sound signature. I kept looking for it subconsciously and had to remind myself that Im now listening from the back row


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## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There were no excessive highs. I'd just encountered a known problem with the modified Denon D5000, which is sibilance on some tracks. There are no issues with my HD-600s and the highs, which sound great. I don't know if the circuit on the upgraded C2C I'm receiving is a permanent modification or not. I'll have to ask Kingwa._

 

Curra, could you describe the sound signature of your modified D5000 amped with the C2C? Also, how does the modified D5000 compare with the HD650, in your opinion?


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## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wrote a review on it here._

 

Yeah, I've read it before some time back but didn't Kingwa just upgrade the C2C? I guess my main concern is does the review still apply with newer version?

 Thanks anyway though for the link, it's time to freshen up my memories.


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## insyte

Listening Impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Most of what Im going to say would be compared to my previous reference, IPOD + mini^3, yes I know its a very unfair comparison, but it's what I have right here with me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In general, desktop amp > portable amp as most of us will know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So I won't have to say which one won 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Desktop PC (Ubuntu/Amarok/ALSA) --> FLAC --> USB --> Stello DA100 (Upsample to 192) --> RCA --> Audio GD C-2C 

 VS

 Ipod 60 GB 5th gen (Rockbox/Lineout) --> FLAC --> Ferds' LOD --> Mini^3 (high performance version)






 I don't listen too loud, just volume matched by ear. I used songs that I think are considered the headphones specialty genre, or basically the genre I like to use them with 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's start 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My apologies as Im not that good in describing sound so this is just going to be short 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ----------------------------
 Koss Porta Pro






 Yes I tested the Koss for fun. There was improvement in bass control. However I felt there wasn't much difference with the portable setup. My "enjoyment" was equal for both setups. If the porta pro were my only cans, I could live with just the portable setup. This just basically means (for me) that the Porta Pro did not scale up with my desktop upgrade 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




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 Etymotic ER4S






 I could also be just happy with the er4s + portable setup. There was improvement with regards to headstage. Detail wise, I think they provided the same (this is the benchmark that is important to me when it comes to the etymotics). I think the biggest benefit for the er4s was that it didn't sound as clinical as it does with the mini^3, but this reason would not be enough for me to reach out for er4s when Im at home 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




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 AKG K701






 This was the first headphone I listened to because I wanted to hear that massive soundstage I previously heard when I auditioned a beta 22. And yes there it was. Instrument separation was excellent. I was listening to "Sabre Dance from Gayaneh" and I felt finally, with the K701 all the instruments are finally alive. The C-2C can definitely drive this can!

 I also like listening to Stacey Kent when I have the K701 on. Using my favorite "The Ice Hotel", the main difference I found was that everything in the background around Stacey's vocal are now more emphasized or should I say easier to appreciate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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 Grado RS-1






 Among my headphones, I think this is the easiest one to drive as even the mini^3 can drive this to a deafening level. But still with the mini^3 the grado sounds very small soundstage wise. The C-2C just opens this up though not as wide as the K701 or the HD650. I find the RS-1 more engaging and more upfront with the desktop setup. Detail is superb. With the juice the C-2C is feeding the grado, the mids are even more emphasized, I guess this is the reason why I found this to be more engaging. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I listened to some Led Zeppelin, The Brilliant Green and YUI for the RS-1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




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 Sennheiser HD650






 It was a pleasant surprise when I used the HD650. The sound signature of being in the back row is still noticeable (especially after using the RS-1). Of the headphones I listened to, I would have to hand the "most improved headphone with the C-2C" award to the HD650, because they really sound "different" now. It doesn't sound as slow as before. I'm getting the right amount of bass control and impact that I want. This is one headphone I probably will not use with the mini^3 again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I repeatedly listened to one of my favorite Jpop track (Buono! - Kokoro no Tamago) and found the mids and dynamics very fluid. I could also say the same after listening to Morning Musume - As For One Day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I listened to a lot of Jpop for the HD650 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 --------------------------

 In conclusion, getting this desktop setup is definitely a very good investement for me, as I am enjoying my music more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you were to ask which one I liked best, my anwser would be "well it depends on the genre." That's the reason why I'm keeping all 3 of my fullsized headphones


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## adamjames37

Nice little review Insyte! Glad you're enjoying your C-2C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 If you don't mind I'd like to ask a question to you or anyone else with a C-2C. When you first got it were you able to turn the volume up more and as the unit burned in it got louder? I Just received my C-2C today and was surprised when I first tried it out that I could quite easily max the volume out using my HD650's. I am using using a Denon DVD-2910 as my source.

 I was supposed to receive a DAC19 with my shipment but it was nowhere to be found 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. My package was also opened by customs and was not sealed properly. There is a pretty nice dent on the left front panel... 

 I should also mention that there is absolutely no gain in volume between 3/4 and full volume. Is this normal? 

 Thanks for any input guys!


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## insyte

Thanks adamjames37 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 With the HD650's I dont go beyond the 11 o'clock position, Im already comfortable at around the 9 o'clock position when using my transport connected to the DAC (an ordinary next base dvd player). I usually also set it at this position when using usb input from the pc.

 I lowered the volume on amarok to 15% (normally I set it at 100%) so I could turn the volume knob all the way. Yup there is very little gain at around 4 o'clock to the 6 o'clock position. I think this is normal. But under normal usage I don't find the need to turn it all the way. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I think I might lower the volume on Amarok lower so I could use the volume knob more, though this might be dangerous if I suddenly switch inputs to the transport and forget to adjust the volume on the C-2C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Any news on your DAC19? It could have been shipped separately


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## adamjames37

Thanks for replying Insyte. I emailed Kingwa and was told that my DAC19 will ship out next Monday. The manufacture times are longer for the DAC19 and I guess Kingwa forgot to mention he would be shipping only the C-2C for this shipment. I hope DHL doesn't dent the DAC19 too! I almost want to ask Kingwa if I can purchase a new faceplate for the C-2C...

 The C-2C is starting to sound really nice now since it has been running for a few hours. I tried playing some more modern CD's which are much more compressed and recorded louder and the volume is quite loud. I think it's me who has the problem as I do like my music fairly loud. What I notice is that the sound is non-fatiguing which makes it seem like the music isn't as loud but the dynamics are huge and remind me that there is plenty of volume.


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## insyte

That's good news about your DAC19 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Let's just hope DHL delivers it properly to you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hey be careful with the volume you use, take care of your hearing


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## adamjames37

I have to say I'm really enjoying the C-2C now. I can tell it is going through some burn in phases and keeps sounding better and better. I also find I don't need to turn the volume up as much now. The dynamics and sound stage are incredible! I can't wait to hear how the DAC19 will add to the already stunning sound! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I emailed Cherry yesterday and asked if I could purchase a new front panel for the C-2C. I received a reply within minutes and was told I could purchase a new one for $10 and that a new volume control is $3! I went ahead and bought the panel which will be included in my DAC19 shipment with no extra shipping cost. It's nice to know Audio-gd is willing to sell virtually any individual part at a fair price. 

 As for my ears... well... I've already ruined them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I used to sit in my room with 8000 watts of JBL loudspeakers blaring in front of me. I told you I had issues!


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## shampoosuicide

Adam, what phones are you using?

 Do report back on the DAC19! I'm looking to upgrade my Zero to that, heh.


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to say I'm really enjoying the C-2C now. I can tell it is going through some burn in phases and keeps sounding better and better. I also find I don't need to turn the volume up as much now. The dynamics and sound stage are incredible! I can't wait to hear how the DAC19 will add to the already stunning sound! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I emailed Cherry yesterday and asked if I could purchase a new front panel for the C-2C. I received a reply within minutes and was told I could purchase a new one for $10 and that a new volume control is $3! I went ahead and bought the panel which will be included in my DAC19 shipment with no extra shipping cost. It's nice to know Audio-gd is willing to sell virtually any individual part at a fair price. 

 As for my ears... well... I've already ruined them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I used to sit in my room with 8000 watts of JBL loudspeakers blaring in front of me. I told you I had issues!_

 

Ah Audio GD is really nice for selling you the front panel. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am also awaiting your DAC19 impressions


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## Currawong

I'm glad my hearing isn't ruined. I've only once in my life been to a concert, so even with HD-600s, I don't turn the volume up very high on the C2C -- not much past 9 o'clock. I'm rather scared that anyone could max it out! Upgrading your DAC will be another huge jump for sure. I'm also looking forward to your impressions.

 insyte: Thanks for your impressions. I think you did a good job describing what you were hearing.


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## insyte

Thanks Currawong 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also cheated by adding pics


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## Skylab

I will be receiving one of these for review - looking forward to it.


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will be receiving one of these for review - looking forward to it._

 

Great! We'll finally have an idea how it compares to other amps, and, not to mention, what it's like with Beyers.


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## adamjames37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Adam, what phones are you using?

 Do report back on the DAC19! I'm looking to upgrade my Zero to that, heh._

 

I'm using HD650's and was previously using a Zero with Earth HDAM and a Little Dot MKV. I don't have the DAC or amp anymore so I can only compare the changes using the C-2C and going from a Denon-2910 as the source to the DAC19. Well, actually, I gave my Zero to a friend so I suppose I could borrow it to make a comparison. I will be sure to let you guys know my impressions! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Curra, I have to say I am jealous of your well cared for ears. I really regret ruining my hearing... The differences between my left ear and right ear are ridiculous. I do find that I've been recently turning the volume down on the C-2C more and more so hopefully I can learn to listen at moderate levels. The reason I crank the volume so much is for the increased perceived dynamics but I'm hoping that when paired with the DAC19 the dynamics will be so good at low volumes that I wont have the urge to crank it and can start taking better care of my ears! 

 Oh, one last thing! The main difference I've noticed going from the MKV to the C-2C (besides increased dynamics and sound stage) is increased fullness. I guess in a way this can be attributed to a greater sound stage but I always felt the MKV had good sound stage but that it was lacking something. The MKV could sound very full and detailed but very flat and compressed at the same time if that makes any sense. As an example, voices just didn't stand out with the authority and fullness I am hearing with the C-2C. I'm thinking the large amount of current the C-2C outputs compared to the MKV is what's causing these differences and the MKV just didn't output enough current to pull it off.


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## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh, one last thing! The main difference I've noticed going from the MKV to the C-2C (besides increased dynamics and sound stage) is increased fullness. I guess in a way this can be attributed to a greater sound stage but I always felt the MKV had good sound stage but that it was lacking something. The MKV could sound very full and detailed but very flat and compressed at the same time if that makes any sense. As an example, voices just didn't stand out with the authority and fullness I am hearing with the C-2C. I'm thinking the large amount of current the C-2C outputs compared to the MKV is what's causing these differences and the MKV just didn't output enough current to pull it off._

 

Thanks for this comparison, as I don't have anything here to compare the C-2C with. I also almost bought the MKV because I was looking for a SS amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I guess the C-2C really has a powerful output


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## adamjames37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for this comparison, as I don't have anything here to compare the C-2C with. I also almost bought the MKV because I was looking for a SS amp. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I guess the C-2C really has a powerful output 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No problem 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. You definitely made the right choice in going with the C-2C. You'd think by looking at the price differences between the two that the MKV and C-2C shouldn't be too far off in performance but the C-2C really is in a totally different league. I'm sure what made the MKV so popular was the high price/performance ratio but in my opinion the C-2C has set a new standard.

 I noticed something interesting about the differences in power output between the two. I was told by Kingwa that the output of the C-2C is 11 volts and if you want to find out the wattage output to different headphones you take the voltage X voltage divided by the impedance. In the case of the HD650's that would be 11x11 divided by 300 = 403mw. If you take a look at the MKV specs the output at 32 ohms is 500mw. For this to work the MKV voltage would have to be 4 volts since 4x4 divided by 32 = 500mw. But if you are using HD650's with a 300 ohm impedance then 4x4 divided by 300 = .05mw! I'm not sure if this formula is appropriate for the MKV since maybe there is something different about its design that makes that formula invalid? Maybe someone with some knowledge of electronics can chime in? The advertised output of the MKV to 300 ohm headphones is 187mw. 

 I should also mention that the volume issue I had before was due to some improper settings on my Denon-2910 and the MFSL CD I first played when the C-2C arrived which was recorded at very low volume. I find the C-2C has tons of volume and would never dream of cranking it on most recordings!

 Still waiting for the DAC19... Should be here by next Monday though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## Mik

Has anyone heard the Audio-GD C-2D? I was searching for info on the C-2C and came across this page from 2006: C-2D Savely Arrived in Australia[ºÎÇì»ªDIY¼¼ÊõÂÛÌ³]. How different/similar is it to the C-2C? The guy from that link likes it better than a dual-mono dynalo (which is what a Headamp GS-X is I think).


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## deadie

Well I took the plunge and ordered the C2C tonight. 

 Will be interesting to compare this to my Headroom Balanced Desktop amp, in terms of power and refinement, but also to see if balanced output really matters.


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## Currawong

Kingwa told me about the C2, the big brother of the C2C. The C2D looks like it has CAST input, as well as RCA, and maybe pre-amp output. I think the regular C2 has XLR and RCA input, but my memory could be off. He doesn't advertise the C2 online for some reason. I imagine it'd give $2000 amps a serious run for their money.


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## Mik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa told me about the C2, the big brother of the C2C. The C2D looks like it has CAST input, as well as RCA, and maybe pre-amp output. I think the regular C2 has XLR and RCA input, but my memory could be off. He doesn't advertise the C2 online for some reason. I imagine it'd give $2000 amps a serious run for their money._

 

Thanks for the info. Do you know how much he has sold C2D for in the past? It sounds like it would be a good combo with the reference dacs.


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## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the info. Do you know how much he has sold C2D for in the past? It sounds like it would be a good combo with the reference dacs._

 

No idea, but I was quoted $7-800 for the C2.


----------



## insyte

Wooa, the C2D is double the price


----------



## kool bubba ice

I hope these match well with my 48s!!


----------



## Shahrose

C2D better than the GS-X? That got me interested...although somehow I doubt that. The GS-X is very close to the B22 in terms of performance. Maybe he just preferred the sound signature with his K701? Time will tell; until then I'll eagerly await further impressions.


----------



## insyte

Well one of my upgrade plans would probably include an Audio GD product, so it would be nice if Audio GD can come up with an amp that is Beta22 level. I also wish Kingwa would advertise the Audio GD CD transport 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would love to get one and someday have a complete balanced CAST system


----------



## Pricklely Peete

How is your C-2C shaping up at the moment insyte ? 

 The CD-7 looks really good BTW. I'd love to pit it against the Vanguard CDM12 Pro Transport (Top Loader) I bought last December.

 Peete.


----------



## insyte

Hi Peete,

 I've been enjoying it tremendously. And the HD650 is the one getting most of my listening time. I haven't really been counting the burn in but I think Im safely past the 200 hour mark. I haven't been critically listening so I don't know if there were any changes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is Kingwa still selling his transports?


----------



## theBigD

Does the C2C use the Earth, Moon, Sun modules? I am currently listening to the Compass and am more impressed with the amp than the DAC so far so thinking the C2C might be even better amp wise. What do you think?


----------



## santacore

Wow, 4 pages and I just noticed this thread.

 I recently purchased a C-2C and have been enjoying it for the last 3 weeks. I have about 100 hours on the unit and Kingwa claims to have put about 100 hours on it before shipping it to me. The unit doesn't seem to have changed too much in the time I've had it.

 Most of my listening has been with Denon D7000's or AKG 701's. Both phones play nice with the amp and sound great in their own ways. I own a pair of HD650's but I haven't really given them much play yet. 

 Overall the amp sounds fantastic. There are no glaring faults that I can hear. It's very musical, has great prat, and does a good job with soundstaging. It's by far the best sounding SS amp that I've heard near this price range. When I'm using the amp, I feel no need to switch back to my Singlepower MPX3 or my Decware CSP-2, both of which are also excellent. I'm not saying it bests either amp, I'm just saying I enjoy it so much that I don't think about the other amps sitting next to it.

 Last thing-I want to give props to Kingwa and Cherry at Audio-Gd. There communication throughout the process was really excellent. My emails almost always got answered within hours of sending them. In my opinion that says a lot about there customer service. Basically I wouldn't hesitate to recommend buying from them in the future. In fact, I'm so impressed with the headphone amp that I'm seriously considering picking up one of their dacs and possibly an integrated amp. Good stuff!!


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well one of my upgrade plans would probably include an Audio GD product, so it would be nice if Audio GD can come up with an amp that is Beta22 level. I also wish Kingwa would advertise the Audio GD CD transport 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I would love to get one and someday have a complete balanced CAST system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

After I received my C2C, I asked Kingwa if it would work balanced. He said he'd have to put 2 C2Cs in a big box with a very high quality volume control. Now, we know now what happens when we ask Kingwa something... some time later I receive an email saying he's already designed a balanced amp, based around the design of one of his integrated amps. It's now got to the point that every time I ask him about something, someone else already has and he's already designed it and has a projected completion date, more or less.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the C2C use the Earth, Moon, Sun modules? I am currently listening to the Compass and am more impressed with the amp than the DAC so far so thinking the C2C might be even better amp wise. What do you think?_

 

No, it doesn't use modules. The circuit used is a variation of the Earth though, according to Kingwa.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wow, 4 pages and I just noticed this thread.

 I recently purchased a C-2C and have been enjoying it for the last 3 weeks. I have about 100 hours on the unit and Kingwa claims to have put about 100 hours on it before shipping it to me. The unit doesn't seem to have changed too much in the time I've had it.

 Most of my listening has been with Denon D7000's or AKG 701's. Both phones play nice with the amp and sound great in their own ways. I own a pair of HD650's but I haven't really given them much play yet. 

 Overall the amp sounds fantastic. There are no glaring faults that I can hear. It's very musical, has great prat, and does a good job with soundstaging. It's by far the best sounding SS amp that I've heard near this price range. When I'm using the amp, I feel no need to switch back to my Singlepower MPX3 or my Decware CSP-2, both of which are also excellent. I'm not saying it bests either amp, I'm just saying I enjoy it so much that I don't think about the other amps sitting next to it.

 Last thing-I want to give props to Kingwa and Cherry at Audio-Gd. There communication throughout the process was really excellent. My emails almost always got answered within hours of sending them. In my opinion that says a lot about there customer service. Basically I wouldn't hesitate to recommend buying from them in the future. In fact, I'm so impressed with the headphone amp that I'm seriously considering picking up one of their dacs and possibly an integrated amp. Good stuff!!_

 

Wow, if it's distracted you from those amps, then that's exceptionally good going. How do you feel it sounds different compared to the MPX3 and CSP-2? What do each do better?


----------



## santacore

Quote:


 Wow, if it's distracted you from those amps, then that's exceptionally good going. How do you feel it sounds different compared to the MPX3 and CSP-2? What do each do better? 
 

It's a little hard to say since I've only had the C-2C 3 weeks and the CSP-2 about 1 week. If I had to put my finger on it, I would probably say the tone and sense of space. I find tube gear just gives a bit more of that 3-D imaging. I was also thinking last night that strings and wood instruments could have a bit more woodyness to them. Then again, maybe it's my headphones....

 The bottom line is I find myself lost in the music every time I use the C-2C. In my opinion that's the highest compliment I can give it.


----------



## Pyriel0

Currawong I just sent The Pacific Valve & Electric Company an email asking if their C2C's are the new or old version. Whenever my citypulse sells I'm probably going to order one, if they are the new version, to compare with the shanling ph100. I'll just have the c2c driving one channel of the k1000 and a ph100 driving the other so I can hear both at the same time. 

 Btw the new version is supposed to be tuned for a more balanced/neutral sound right? Or is that going to be something else?

 Edit: Got a response saying they are the new version already. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would still like to know if the new version is more balanced than the initial ones though if anyone has that information.


----------



## theBigD

So what are the advantages of the C2C over the Compass? I am finding the Compass better than my ef1 amp wise but not so sure I want the DAC. Am I correct in believing the C2C will have better detail than the compass with better bass extension and wider soundstage?


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After I received my C2C, I asked Kingwa if it would work balanced. He said he'd have to put 2 C2Cs in a big box with a very high quality volume control. Now, we know now what happens when we ask Kingwa something... some time later I receive an email saying he's already designed a balanced amp, based around the design of one of his integrated amps. It's now got to the point that every time I ask him about something, someone else already has and he's already designed it and has a projected completion date, more or less._

 

Oh my. Kingwa is really fast. 

 Ref 1 + balanced C2C (or he could name it as C4C) = my goal for next year 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bottom line is I find myself lost in the music every time I use the C-2C. In my opinion that's the highest compliment I can give it._

 

Hi, I enjoyed reading your impressions. Im glad the C-2C can distract you from your other amps. Good sign for the C-2C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Since Ive been staying at home, I get to enjoy the C-2C around 6 to 8 hours a day the past few days


----------



## Skylab

I received my review sample of the C-2C. Early impression is favorable. It's very smooth for a SS amp to be sure. More in a week or so - need some more break in, etc.


----------



## ttnl

Hi, Skylab, if it's at all possible, please do some comparation between the C2C and the Caliente. Thank you very much.


----------



## Skylab

I will, but sadly, it will have to be from memory only, since as you may know my Caliente was stolen by a former head-fier...


----------



## Dat_Dude

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will, but sadly, it will have to be from memory only, since as you may know my Caliente was stolen by a former head-fier..._

 

Stolen? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That stinks! I am new here, but did you let someone borrow the Caliente and not return it?


----------



## Shahrose

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dat_Dude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Stolen? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That stinks! I am new here, but did you let someone borrow the Caliente and not return it?_

 

Yea, it's old news. Hopefully we don't have to waste our time talking about such trash. Let's just hope he/she never shows up again.

 On a different note, I'm looking forward to hearing Skylab's thoughts on the C-2C.


----------



## deadie

She's here!
















 Two days from China to San Diego, gotta love it.

 First impressions:

 * Very Powerful - Drives the 701s with ease. More than sufficient volume just past 9 o'clock. Will put it head to head with my Headroom balanced desktop after a few weeks.

 * As others have said, it's nice and smooth. But oh yes, it needs burn in. 

 * Solid build quality. Good clicks, nothing's wobbly, pot turns with just enough resistance. 

 * Will move over to my Musical Fidelity V-DAC later tonight. The sense of space and richness with that thing just blows away the DR.DAC, but that's another thread. Right now looking seriously at the PS Audio DLIII for its balanced outputs.

 * And one can't go without praising Kingwa and Cherry. They responded to all my questions promptly and with courtesy. 

 So far loving it!


----------



## K3cT

Now all these talks about the C2C is getting me really excited. I see that coming from Compass is going to be difficult because the amp section in the Compass is already very remarkable. So far I have considered the the EF1 and the Caliente but I guess I have to move a spot for the C2C as well now.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_She's here!

 Two days from China to San Diego, gotta love it.

 First impressions:

 * Very Powerful - Drives the 701s with ease. More than sufficient volume just past 9 o'clock. Will put it head to head with my Headroom balanced desktop after a few weeks.

 * As others have said, it's nice and smooth. But oh yes, it needs burn in. 

 * Solid build quality. Good clicks, nothing's wobbly, pot turns with just enough resistance. 

 * Will move over to my Musical Fidelity V-DAC later tonight. The sense of space and richness with that thing just blows away the DR.DAC, but that's another thread. Right now looking seriously at the PS Audio DLIII for its balanced outputs.

 * And one can't go without praising Kingwa and Cherry. They responded to all my questions promptly and with courtesy. 

 So far loving it!_

 

Congrats 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Yup it has more than enough juice to drive the K701 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can't wait for your impressions on how it pairs with the MF V-DAC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Kingwa and Cherry deserve praise as they are very consistent so far with their customer service 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now all these talks about the C2C is getting me really excited. I see that coming from Compass is going to be difficult because the amp section in the Compass is already very remarkable. So far I have considered the the EF1 and the Caliente but I guess I have to move a spot for the C2C as well now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

From the reviews, the amp in the compass is already very good. So it was also my dilemma on which one to get first (im contemplating on getting a compass for a dorm setup if my budget permits me). At the time I ordered a C-2C only Curra had both and I asked his opinion (since I trust his ears) if the C-2C was a step up from the Compass amp. Long story short I went for the C-2C and got a separate preowned DAC locally


----------



## deadie

I couldn't wait for tonight.

 The DR.DAC2 is a very cool unit - great sound, tons of inputs, 96/24 processing, strong volume output, and small. Perfect for my travels.

 But the V-DAC, she's another thing altogether...

 Both units have great clarity, but the thing that sets the V-DAC apart is that it just explodes the soundstage wide open. 

 And she plays with the C2C so nicely... rich, liquid, smooth, and very open. This is an awesome combo with the 701s.

 Now I wish I didn't sell my Channel Islands VDA-2! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ah well, sets me up to think about Kingwa's Ref1.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I couldn't wait for tonight.

 The DR.DAC2 is a very cool unit - great sound, tons of inputs, 96/24 processing, strong volume output, and small. Perfect for my travels.

 But the V-DAC, she's another thing altogether...

 Both units have great clarity, but the thing that sets the V-DAC apart is that it just explodes the soundstage wide open. 

 And she plays with the C2C so nicely... rich, liquid, smooth, and very open. This is an awesome combo with the 701s.

 Now I wish I didn't sell my Channel Islands VDA-2! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ah well, sets me up to think about Kingwa's Ref1._

 

Thanks for the impressions. Ah the Ref 1, I want it too


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From the reviews, the amp in the compass is already very good. So it was also my dilemma on which one to get first (im contemplating on getting a compass for a dorm setup if my budget permits me). At the time I ordered a C-2C only Curra had both and I asked his opinion (since I trust his ears) if the C-2C was a step up from the Compass amp. Long story short I went for the C-2C and got a separate preowned DAC locally 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I had a chat with Kingwa and yeah, he advised not to get the C2C since he said the Compass' amp is already 80% as good as the C2C so it's not going to be a big improvement. Let's see what he says next but I'm afraid that I have to increase my budget to get another big leap in sound. 

 I also asked whether he's interested to design a tube-based hybrid design but he said that he didn't like tubes and he already could make SS amps that sound like tubes.


----------



## insyte

Hehe I went ahead and got the 20% difference because Im going to use this setup (Stello+C-2C) for a long time until I save enough to get the Ref1 and whatever flagship amp Kingwa has designed, hopefully by next year 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's actually the law of diminishing returns, we pay a lot to get small improvements


----------



## deadie

... and don't forget, we crazy audiophiles sometimes pay for "the best" so that we don't have that itchy, eeehhhh, wonder wonder wonder, feeling in the back of our head if we should have just bit the bullet and ponied up for the top. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Compromise-induced buyer's remorse sucks.


----------



## Currawong

I've lent out all my dynamic headphones (except cheap ones) so I can't do anything with my new C2-C just yet. I was expecting HD-800s to have arrived by now to use with it.


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've lent out all my dynamic headphones (except cheap ones) so I can't do anything with my new C2-C just yet. I was expecting HD-800s to have arrived by now to use with it._

 

No interest in the 701/702s? They sing with this amp.


----------



## theBigD

Curra,
 For a second there I had a crazy impulse to send you a good pair of headphones! Man, I sure hope some of you guys get the hd-800s so the rest of us can benefit from your experiences.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've lent out all my dynamic headphones (except cheap ones) so I can't do anything with my new C2-C just yet. I was expecting HD-800s to have arrived by now to use with it._

 

Wow you are definitely on your way to audio bliss 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Has the HD800 shipped?


----------



## Currawong

The HD-800 wont ship until late April I'm told. I'm #8 on the list with HeadRoom, so I'll be one of the first to get a pair. I imagine that the C2C would be a good match with K701s. Now I have the Reference 1, I almost wish I had a pair again, but I've got Stax to satisfy me at the moment.

 Edit: I emailed Kingwa and he said he's changed the circuit, but so far doesn't sound a lot different to my original one.


----------



## insyte

Yes the C-2C with K701 is fantastic, but I can imagine your stax rig would be more than adequate especially with the reference 1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I thought you had your C-2C tuned to be more neutral? 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... and don't forget, we crazy audiophiles sometimes pay for "the best" so that we don't have that itchy, eeehhhh, wonder wonder wonder, feeling in the back of our head if we should have just bit the bullet and ponied up for the top. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Compromise-induced buyer's remorse sucks._

 

I try to shoot for the top as much as possible (if my wallet can afford it), I think in the long run this will save me money by having less upgrades every so often


----------



## Skylab

After 24 hours break in, the C-2C sounds even a little better than at first, and it sounded quote good right out of the box. I'm impressed so far at the combination of smoothness and nuance/detail.


----------



## Currawong

I edited my post by the way, Kingwa replied to my email saying that he changed the circuit a little. I'll wait until I get my headphones back before I experiment any more.

 Skylab: Kingwa sends out gear with at least 100 hours testing/burn-in done first. Wait until you hit 350 hours, then it really gets interesting.


----------



## santacore

Quote:


 Kingwa sends out gear with at least 100 hours testing/burn-in done first. Wait until you hit 350 hours, then it really gets interesting 
 

So it's going to get even better? Nice.

 By the way, I got noticed improvements by upgrading my power cord to a Black Sand. It increased the detail and opened up the soundstage.


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So it's going to get even better? Nice.

 By the way, I got noticed improvements by upgrading my power cord to a Black Sand. It increased the detail and opened up the soundstage._

 

Are you using the Black Max MKII or something higher up? Not cheap, these cables are.


----------



## dario

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After 24 hours break in, the C-2C sounds even a little better than at first, and it sounded quote good right out of the box. I'm impressed so far at the combination of smoothness and nuance/detail._

 

Hello Skylab, I will wait for your rate in your chart with the other amps for comparison


----------



## isao2k8

I just ordered C-2C yesterday... looking forward to compare it to Shanling PH100.


----------



## Pyriel0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I edited my post by the way, Kingwa replied to my email saying that he changed the circuit a little. I'll wait until I get my headphones back before I experiment any more.

 Skylab: Kingwa sends out gear with at least 100 hours testing/burn-in done first. Wait until you hit 350 hours, then it really gets interesting._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *isao2k8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just ordered C-2C yesterday... looking forward to compare it to Shanling PH100._

 

Thanks Currawong. I look forward to reading your comparison Isao. I guess I will wait to see what you think before I try it. Pacific Valve has a 30 day retrun policy so after the restocking fee+shipping it would cost me about $50 to do it.


----------



## santacore

Quote:


 Are you using the Black Max MKII or something higher up? Not cheap, these cables are. 
 

I'm using the Black Sand Violet cable. It's a bit pricey, but I'm very pleased with it's sound.


----------



## t/sound

Early impressions of C2C to 701. Very good synergy, the 701 comes across as much more musical with much better bass response. The analytical side seems more controlled and there is more emotion. The wonderfull wide soundstage is still present but instruments seem to have more body. I just feel the ambiance of the recording venue better, I dont know if it is due to more detail or better control over the driver.

 With good recordings it sounds simply sublime, even lesser ones are more acceptable.

 But what's with the volume? When I just got it I had the dial at 12 o'clock, within hours I had to go down to 9 'o clock. Now after 250 hours I hardly ever need to go above 9. In fact 7 or 8 is where I mostly listen at. I am used to have to turn up the volume with the 701 compared to other phones. I have a Senn 595 and switching from the 701 I have to turn the dial waaay down, startling. By the way, the Senn 595 sounds pretty darn good from the C2C.

 If you thought AKG 701 cannot do bass, I have a big surprise for you. Get the album Blackbird by a group called Siri's svale band, use a decent source ( Audio gd Ref 1 oooh ) plug your 701 in to a C2C, sit back and prepare to be impressed, then enjoy.

 Listen to the track Love for sale, bass, stage, sax, rhythm, treble,symbals, voice. If this is not unbelievable I dont know what is.

 Please try this and comment.
 Great shade.


----------



## Currawong

That's interesting to hear about power cables. I'm starting to be convinced of their merits. I picked up a second-hand PS Audio Statement for a good price to see how it goes, though it's connected to my Ref 1 presently.

 t/sound: I had a suspicion the C2C was a good amp for the K701s and I'm glad to hear it's a good match.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's interesting to hear about power cables. I'm starting to be convinced of their merits. I picked up a second-hand PS Audio Statement for a good price to see how it goes, though it's connected to my Ref 1 presently._

 

Looking anxiously forward to a comparison between the PS Audio Statement and the Audio-gd power cord. Please tell me it makes no difference, for my wallet's sake.


----------



## Mik

I just got my C2C today. Even though it's not as big as a Ref 1, it's still quite large for a headphone amplifier. My DacMagic and Headamp V2 are both quite a bit smaller. While I haven't done a straight comparison test yet, I feel the C2C is at least a little bit superior to my Headamp V2. XLR from my DacMagic to C2C is nice too.


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking anxiously forward to a comparison between the PS Audio Statement and the Audio-gd power cord. Please tell me it makes no difference, for my wallet's sake. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm of the same mind. The "power cord pond" is one I want to gently toe into, rather than inhale the kool-aid with full force.

 GoGo mixed metaphors! Anyway.

 I'm a believe of quality interconnects, without spending stupid amounts of money.

 I'm a believer in "cleaner" power supplies, and have invested in a Richard Gray to protect / clean my main A/V gear.

 But audio power cables... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 These suckers can range from under $100 to mid-four figures. I mean, c'mon!

 So for what it's worth, I'm going to try this guy's stuff. Seems pretty well respected in the 'gon community, and it's a minor outlay of cash. My only concern is whether it's *too* minor and that I shouldn't cheap out if I've invested thousands in headphone amps / balanced headphones, etc.

 Anybody have experience with SignalCable?


----------



## Tyson

Audio GD gear is incredibly sensitive to power and to power cables. The best PC I've used is the Bolder Nitro PC's, check it out: Store for The Bolder Cable Company


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After 24 hours break in, the C-2C sounds even a little better than at first, and it sounded quote good right out of the box. I'm impressed so far at the combination of smoothness and nuance/detail._

 

Wow can't wait till you finish the burn-in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *t/sound* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Early impressions of C2C to 701. Very good synergy, the 701 comes across as much more musical with much better bass response. The analytical side seems more controlled and there is more emotion. The wonderfull wide soundstage is still present but instruments seem to have more body._

 

Im glad you also find the C-2C good for the K701. This is one of the reasons why Im happy with the C-2C. I finally found an amp for the K701 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking anxiously forward to a comparison between the PS Audio Statement and the Audio-gd power cord. Please tell me it makes no difference, for my wallet's sake. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Darn I hope the Audio GD PC is good enough


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Looking anxiously forward to a comparison between the PS Audio Statement and the Audio-gd power cord. Please tell me it makes no difference, for my wallet's sake. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I bought mine for $225 from Patrick82, the power-cable crazy guy himself. I've decided that, unless I win the lottery, $200 is a sane maximum point for interconnects and power cables for the gear I'm using. For second-hand prices, it's much better, as audio gear often has a 100% mark-up.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So for what it's worth, I'm going to try this guy's stuff. Seems pretty well respected in the 'gon community, and it's a minor outlay of cash. My only concern is whether it's *too* minor and that I shouldn't cheap out if I've invested thousands in headphone amps / balanced headphones, etc.

 Anybody have experience with SignalCable?_

 

Someone, I can't remember who, recommended SignalCable to me. Can't argue with the prices, that's for sure. I also had in mind to get a second-hand Virtual Dynamics David for $200 or thereabouts. I realise this is crazy stuff for discussing when this thread is about a $3-400 amp.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But audio power cables... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 These suckers can range from under $100 to mid-four figures. I mean, c'mon!_

 

You obviously haven't heard about Patrick82's latest purchase, have you? Just a mid-four figure...pah!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I bought mine for $225 from Patrick82, the power-cable crazy guy himself. I've decided that, unless I win the lottery, $200 is a sane maximum point for interconnects and power cables for the gear I'm using. For second-hand prices, it's much better, as audio gear often has a 100% mark-up._

 

Actually, power cables should be about the easiest cable to DIY, so that would be my choice if I would want to go further down that slippery path. Well, I'm not there yet. I still have to try out the Audio-gd power cord first. I have two coming and will do extensive comparisons. It will be fun if I can prove my father wrong in this matter. (He's an EE and so obviously does not believe in all this power cord-nonsense.)

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I realise this is crazy stuff for discussing when this thread is about a $3-400 amp._

 

Most people would agree, some people from Sweden wouldn't.


----------



## Skylab

I am not a big believer in power cables. I use the Iron Lung Jellyfish, a very nicely made 2-M power cable that costs $29. This is as far as I go. I have some more expensive ones, but I never bought them - they "came" with used equipment I bought.

 C-2C update: 50 hours into burn in, and not much additional change so far after the first 24 hours - SMOOTH sailing on this very nice sounding amplifier. The amp will burn in in my office for the weekend, and I won't be listening to it - I hope to start the "real" auditioning for the review mid-next week.


----------



## mbd2884

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does the C2C use the Earth, Moon, Sun modules? I am currently listening to the Compass and am more impressed with the amp than the DAC so far so thinking the C2C might be even better amp wise. What do you think?_

 

C2C amp does not use any OpAmps, discrete or IC. Also, the Compass amp does not use OpAmps either, discrete or IC. The OpAmp in the Compass is in the DAC.

 Good postings! I think the C2C may be in my future when I feel the need to upgrade again in the future.


----------



## Currawong

Just in case someone does have a close look at the C2-C pictures and wonders, it does have a single opamp in the DC (power) circuit to keep the voltage at zero, not in the signal path. I have no idea though about how audio circuits work, just know that half the job is keeping a steady supply of power to the amplification circuits despite the rapidly changing voltages required by the music.


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You obviously haven't heard about Patrick82's latest purchase, have you? Just a mid-four figure...pah!_

 

I had not heard about his purchase. 

 I had not read that thread. 

 And now that I've seen those pictures, I am desperately clawing out my eyes. 

 My eyes!


----------



## Mik

Here's a pic of my new stack. The C2C is big!


----------



## deadie

So now that my C2C has roughly 200 hours on it (100 Kingwa + 100 me), I decided to put it up against my Headroom Balanced Desktop to see what, if any differences presented themselves.











 You can see in the above shot that I split the signal from the V-DAC as well as the size differences between the two amps.

 Cutting to the chase, yes there are differences - three rather clear ones, in fact:

 1) Power, of course. The Headroom unit has just gobs of power that manifest / reveals itself in how vocals, piano plings and plungs, bass guitar thums, etc just sound fuller, more dimensional. The highs come through nearly the same, very clean, but the lower end register in all notes is just richer & deeper and extends a bit longer.

 2) Refinement. The Headroom just does everything better. A bit richer. Lusher.

 3) Smoothness. This is likely a function of the respective age of both amps. I've had the Headroom for over a year whereas the C2C is just a couple hundred hours old. By itself, I'm quite happy with its sound, but upon comparison with a more mature amp, it's evident that the C2C's burn in is far from complete.

 ...which is cool, b/c I'm loving how this amp is just sounding better and better every morning after I wake up from all night burn-in sessions.

 So, obvious caveats and other comments. 

 - It's really not fair to compare these two, given that the Headroom is 3x the cost. But it's really obvious that the C2C plays well above its price, and I look forward to the next shootout around the 500 hour mark. 

 - Could the SE to Balanced adapter on the C2C be muting some of the sound vs. straight to balanced from the Headroom? Perhaps. I may need to pick up another AKG701 and keep it SE. 

 - I also have a decent power supply for the Headroom - its Astrodyne unit. I bought SignalCable's power cord, so we'll see if that makes a difference.

 - Will the behavior of either / both amps change with a native balanced signal? I'm looking for a balanced source right now. I sold my CI Audio VDA2, and am looking at the Cambridge DAC Magic, PS Audio DLIII, Music Hall, and of course the Benchmark.

 Ultimately, I love both amps.

 I love how this C2C is a hugenormous value, and she keeps getting better and better with time.

 And I continue my love affair with the Headroom Balanced amp - she keeps demonstrating why I spent so much money on her, and for switching to the pricey balanced "ecosystem".


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had not heard about his purchase. 

 I had not read that thread. 

 And now that I've seen those pictures, I am desperately clawing out my eyes. 

 My eyes!_

 

Ahhhh wasted my time on that thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 @Mik - nice rig 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 @Deadie - Wow C-2C vs a balanced amp. I'll wait for your impressions after burn in finishes


----------



## Currawong

I'm amazed how small the Headamp Balanced Desktop is. I didn't think the C2C was that big, but then I'm used to hi-fi gear. A Headamp amp is on my shortlist of future gear to own, depending on how the HD-800s measure up to this Stax gear.

 When you did the comparison, did you try it using the headphones single-ended with HBD? I gather that the effect of balancing headphones can be pretty dramatic.

 I broke out my old MB Quart 55Xs, which I had prior to discovering head-fi, to try my new C2C with, as I've lent out my Denons and Senns in exchange for Stax. I thought that it would be a waste of time, as the 55Xs are rather on the level of cheap Grados, but I was rather shocked at how good everything sounded. Admittedly, much of this was due to the Reference 1. There are some tonality differences between my old and new C2C, but I'll wait for the return of my HD-600s before I investigate this more.


----------



## Skylab

The C-2C is actually a pretty big amp!


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When you did the comparison, did you try it using the headphones single-ended with HBD? I gather that the effect of balancing headphones can be pretty dramatic._

 

Good question, and I thought about that as I left to go out for dinner tonight.

 I ran two different tests:

 1) SE Headroom vs. SE C2C

 2) SE Headroom vs. Balanced Headroom

 Re: #1, there still is a difference in fullness of note, but it's quite small.

 The results of second test, however, were dramatic. It's like my sound peripheral vision just got wider and fuller. 

 Funnily enough, I've never done this SE vs Balanced test on my Headroom amp, using the adapter. 

 So we still have more questions:

 1) Is balanced drive just THAT much better a connector / signal path in and of itself, even within the same amp?

 2) Could I glean better sound quality if I used a "native" SE AKG701 vs. using the balanced adapter? 

 If someone would like to send me a nicely burned-in SE 701 to borrow, I'd be happy to run that test.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The C-2C is actually a pretty big amp!_

 

Given that the C-2C is my first desktop amp and most of the amps I saw in meets were close to that size, I actually didn't know the C-2C was big until I saw the pic with the headroom on it. I was actually amazed and thought, wow that's a small balanced amplifier


----------



## Currawong

deadie: That's quite impressive. I thought when I reviewed the C2C that it was tremendous value, even though I could only go how it compared to the LD MKV and the descriptions in other people's reviews, such as the tightness and detail in the bass, as well as the sound when headphones were plugged into my Lavry vs. plugged into the C2C. I'm glad that my impressions have been validated.

 insyte: I remember the pics of the Headroom Max series, and they looked quite large, so I imagined the Balanced Desktop was a similar size.


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_deadie: That's quite impressive. I thought when I reviewed the C2C that it was tremendous value, even though I could only go how it compared to the LD MKV and the descriptions in other people's reviews, such as the tightness and detail in the bass, as well as the sound when headphones were plugged into my Lavry vs. plugged into the C2C. I'm glad that my impressions have been validated._

 

Ideally, I'd love to iron out my methodology and make this a true SE to SE shootout with:

 SE AKG701 & SE Headroom Desktop amp

 That would give a "truer" indication of how far above its pricepoint the C2C plays. 

 Has anyone fed the C2C with a balanced signal yet? Is there a difference as compared to the RCA inputs?


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone fed the C2C with a balanced signal yet? Is there a difference as compared to the RCA inputs?_

 

I'm waiting for the arrival of the XLR version of my Van Den Hul The Orchid to arrive, so I can do a comparison. With my borrowed Stax rig, the Thunderline balanced is almost as good as the Orchid RCA set, and the Orchid is supposed to be much better. This may or may not have significance, so I'm now more curious to test with the same cable with both the Stax and the C2C. My understanding though is that balanced connections are supposed to have a good effect when long cable runs are used.


----------



## Mik

I have my C2C hooked up using XLR from my DacMagic. I don't know how "balanced" either the C2C or the DacMagic really is, but it does sound excellent. I haven't had time to compare using the RCA inputs yet. I'm just enjoying the sound too much.


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have my C2C hooked up using XLR from my DacMagic. I don't know how "balanced" either the C2C or the DacMagic really is, but it does sound excellent. I haven't had time to compare using the RCA inputs yet. I'm just enjoying the sound too much. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Cmon Mik - some off the cuff impressions would only take you a minute! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Be interesting if you have both the XLRs and RCAs hooked up at the same time, and then toggled the "RCA/XLR" input button on the C2C.

 Is one louder?
 Is one richer?
 More detailed?


----------



## Currawong

I thought that XLR was designed for long runs of cable, where the difference would be noticeable.


----------



## Mik

I just tried connecting my DacMagic to my C2C using both RCA and XLR. I played some FLACs in foobar while switching between RCA and XLR. I can't hear any difference at all. I'd like to be able to say XLR is better, but I have nothing to base it on. I'll still probably keep it hooked up with XLR though, just cause I can.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mik* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just tried connecting my DacMagic to my C2C using both RCA and XLR. I played some FLACs in foobar while switching between RCA and XLR. I can't hear any difference at all. I'd like to be able to say XLR is better, but I have nothing to base it on. I'll still probably keep it hooked up with XLR though, just cause I can. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Not that Im glad that you can't hear any difference. But this is a very important impression for me since Im limited to using the RCA inputs for now. At least now I know that the difference between using XLR vs RCA is either, none, very minimal or hard to discern


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not that Im glad that you can't hear any difference. But this is a very important impression for me since Im limited to using the RCA inputs for now. At least now I know that the difference between using XLR vs RCA is either, none, very minimal or hard to discern 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Probably depends both on your ears and on the equipment used. When I ordered my Reference One Kingwa warned me that the RCA output would not show the unit to its full potential. XLR would be better and the best connection would be CAST (in his estimation). I'll be sure to test it once I've gathered enough funds to buy a Phoenix. Say, in ten years or so.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Probably depends both on your ears and on the equipment used. When I ordered my Reference One Kingwa warned me that the RCA output would not show the unit to its full potential. XLR would be better and the best connection would be CAST (in his estimation). I'll be sure to test it once I've gathered enough funds to buy a Phoenix. Say, in ten years or so._

 

Oh nooooooooo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Oh well so I'll probably upgrade my DAC first when I have the funds


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Oh nooooooooo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Oh well so I'll probably upgrade my DAC first when I have the funds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think you have an amazing amp there with the C-2C. Never let upgraditis spoil your listening enjoyment.


----------



## insyte

Hehehe I guess I will slow down. Im happy with my setup now.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Probably depends both on your ears and on the equipment used. When I ordered my Reference One Kingwa warned me that the RCA output would not show the unit to its full potential. XLR would be better and the best connection would be CAST (in his estimation). I'll be sure to test it once I've gathered enough funds to buy a Phoenix. Say, in ten years or so._

 

That's interesting, because my two best cables are the Van Den Hul Thunderline XLR and Orchid RCA. The latter cable is supposed to be much better (it's a new design) than the former (an old design, but updated somewhat). Switching between them on my Stax rig, there's very little difference at all, making me wonder if the XLR has some benefit over the RCA with the Ref 1.

 When I first bought the C2C, I thought it a very odd design, having balanced input, but only single-ended output. Kingwa told me that the C2C needed a good quality source. I thought he was referring to the fact that I was only using a Zero DAC at the time, but I realised that he was being dead straight about it when I found how well it carries detail through. 

 I had a listen, by the way, to my old model and the new one, and could barely discern a difference, despite the circuit change. It's hard to tell that it isn't from burn-in either.


----------



## Mik

If there's a difference between XLR and RCA on the C2C, I expect the difference would be much easier to spot with a higher end dac like the Ref 1. While I like my DacMagic, I don't know if its XLR ports are there to give more connection options or whether the DacMagic is really a balanced design. Since we know the Ref 1 is definitely balanced, it would be good to test it out as well.


----------



## adamjames37

Well I promised you guys I would let you know how the DAC-19SE sounds with the C-2C so here's a little review using HD650/600's and K701. I might post a full review later in a separate thread but since the DAC-19 will probably be a fairly popular DAC to pair with the C-2C I feel a short review is fitting for this thread. 

 The DAC arrived in perfect condition and was packaged very well in a surprisingly large box. I purchased the HDCD model which uses a PMD100 chip for the digital filter. I was told by Kingwa that the PMD100 sounds better with standard Red Book CD's than the basic model using the DF1704 digital filter chip. 

 I was originally using a Little Dot MKV as my amp and either a Denon DVD-2910 as my source or a Zero DAC with Earth HDAM. The Zero DAC had a slightly better sound than the Denon but did not have as good a S/N ratio and could always hear some hiss when the Zero was connected to the MKV.

 I had received the C-2C about a week and a half before the DAC-19 so I have become accustomed to its sound and the improvement it made over the MKV. The first thing I noticed when I added the DAC-19 to the chain was that it was not as significant an improvement compared to what I had experienced when I upgraded from the MKV to C-2C. Well... It may not be fair to say that the difference is not as significant because it really is! The difference is just not as immediate and did not stand out as much as the prior amplification upgrade did. 

 The differences are in the details. I was shocked when I listened to some recordings I had listened to many times before and swore that there were some defects in the recordings that I was picking out since they were repeatable every time. I found that when using the DAC-19 many of those defects magically disappeared! For example... Listening to Queen - Another One Bites the Dust, the main drum beat used to have a sort of digital clicking sound at the trailing frequencies. When using the DAC-19 everything comes out crystal clear and is simply real sounding. I no longer feel I am listening to a digital recording! This DAC is most definitely an upgrade over the Denon or Zero in every single way. The unit is very silent, extremely dynamic, very analytical and best of all simply does not sound digital in any way. I'm finally hearing the true colors of the music I have listened to many times before and even find that recordings I used to think were of pretty good quality are actually not all that great sometimes. The same goes for recordings that I used to think were just alright and which I've developed a new found appreciation.

 Overall the DAC-19 is a darn fine unit for the price and will be hard to beat for under $500US. If I had to choose between the C-2C or DAC-19 I would have to say I'd choose the C-2C. The reason for this? I had mentioned previously that I felt the MKV lacked depth and authority in its voicing and I stand by that. The C-2C has eliminated what I found to be a mildly annoying compressed sound to voices and just generally brings the HD650's and K701 to life! I didn't even know the K701 had any life in them until now! 

 Hmm... I wonder what kind of improvements Kingwa's new Phoenix fully balanced headamp would make? NO! Can't... think... these... thoughts! Need money for food!


----------



## insyte

Thanks for the review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Hmm... I wonder what kind of improvements Kingwa's new Phoenix fully balanced headamp would make? NO! Can't... think... these... thoughts! Need money for food! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I also need to stop thinking about the Phoenix


----------



## deadie

Short post / review:

 I just received my new PS Audio DLIII DAC today, and she's a beauty! Even longer than the C2C if you can believe it. 

 A longer review is forthcoming after it's burned it, but regarding the difference between RCA and XLR inputs...

 I can barely, if anything, hear a difference between the inputs with "redbook" 16/44 music. I'm toggling between the two, and it's a crapshoot.

 However, interestingly, with 24/96 audio like Barb Jungr's stuff from Linn Records, there is enhanced detail and dimension with XLR. The RCA is just a bit thinner and closed, whereas the XLR gives it more body. 

 Whether this is a function of the processing of the DAC or the inputs of the amp, I don't know, but there you go...


----------



## shampoosuicide

Adam, thanks for the review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Could you possibly briefly directly compare the DAC-19 with the Zero? Also, what opamp/HDAM are you using with the Zero?


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's interesting, because my two best cables are the Van Den Hul Thunderline XLR and Orchid RCA. The latter cable is supposed to be much better (it's a new design) than the former (an old design, but updated somewhat). Switching between them on my Stax rig, there's very little difference at all, making me wonder if the XLR has some benefit over the RCA with the Ref 1._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I can barely, if anything, hear a difference between the inputs with "redbook" 16/44 music. I'm toggling between the two, and it's a crapshoot._

 

Thanks for those impressions. In a way, it's all good news to me, because I'll be using my Ref One with RCA output for the near future. (And with nothing but Redbook.) It's good to hear that it manages to show a lot of its potential with that connection.

 So perhaps the real step up would be to go to CAST rightaway? Good to know the Phoenix is coming. Do you think it's time already to ask Kingwa for a Stax headphone amplifier with CAST input?


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So perhaps the real step up would be to go to CAST rightaway? Good to know the Phoenix is coming. Do you think it's time already to ask Kingwa for a Stax headphone amplifier with CAST input? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I had the same thoughts, and my wallet started to have a seizure


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for those impressions. In a way, it's all good news to me, because I'll be using my Ref One with RCA output for the near future. (And with nothing but Redbook.) It's good to hear that it manages to show a lot of its potential with that connection.

 So perhaps the real step up would be to go to CAST rightaway? Good to know the Phoenix is coming. Do you think it's time already to ask Kingwa for a Stax headphone amplifier with CAST input? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I recall someone being told by Kingwa that one gets the benefits of CAST even if one uses XLR or RCA connections.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I recall someone being told by Kingwa that one gets the benefits of CAST even if one uses XLR or RCA connections._

 

Yes, in part at least. But as I understand it (not being able to read the Japanese SATRI documentation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ), CAST is a signal configuration both within equipment and between equipment. So getting a signal from a DAC to an amplifier without translating it to regular XLR or RCA will improve the quality of that connection and prevent signal degredation through interference.


----------



## jc9394

I'm considering getting an Audio-GD C-2C in a very near future but wonder how does it pair with low impedance headphones? I'm very interested on how it sound with ATH-AD2000 and ATH-W5000.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jc9394* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm considering getting an Audio-GD C-2C in a very near future but wonder how does it pair with low impedance headphones? I'm very interested on how it sound with ATH-AD2000 and ATH-W5000._

 

With the RS-1, I am careful to leave the volume at a very very low level


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With the RS-1, I am careful to leave the volume at a very very low level 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

How low? With my the fairly hard to drive 701s, I only go just past 9 o'clock. Given how efficient the Grados are, you must be down in the 7 o'clock range! 

 ... on another issue with the C2C, has anyone noticed any strange "interference" with this amp? 

 Let me be specific with 2 examples:

 1) When I tested the C2C against my Headroom balanced, I split the signal out of the V-DAC, sending RCAs to both the C2C and the Headroom. At first, all was fine, then a few hours later, I noticed that the audio from the C2C would be distorted, clipping. 

 (The audio out of the Headroom was fine)

 Needless to say, this was a bit... concerning. But then I unhooked everything, and sent the signal from the DAC directly to the C2C, and the distortion was gone.

 I figured this was just an anomaly... until. 

 2) ... I received my PS Audio DLIII DAC. This unit has both XLR balanced and RCA outs. So again, I sent the C2C RCAs and XLR to the Headroom. Distinct outputs. No splitter.

 But again, the distortion reared its ugly head. And it gets weirder. 

 The distortion would go away if I removed the XLRs from my Headroom amp. So the C2C would be playing, connected directly to the DLIII, and my balanced cables from the DLIII would be connected to nothing but the DAC. And no distortion. 

 But just the very act of connecting the XLRs to the Headroom, the clipping would show up again. 

 eh? Ground loop? Rip in space time? what?

 The kicker is, no other amp of mine does this. 

 I connect RCAs to the analog inputs of my DR.DAC amp. All is fine. 

 RCAs from the DLIII into my NAD receiver for speaker playback. Fine.


----------



## Drosera

I think what you are doing is simply something that you shouldn't be doing. Why no other amps have given similar distortion with such a configuration I don't know. (EDIT: Although it might have something to do with the particular kind of signal amplification that the CAST-circuitry requires.)

 I just received some notes on my Reference One from Kingwa. He said amongst other things, that I shouldn't connect any of the outputs at the same time. So, either RCA, or XLR, or CAST. I figure that is because you are dealing with a single signal output circuit, which runs into trouble voltage-wise when you use more than one type of connection. That is where I think your distortion comes from. You would need more amplification of the output signal to feed it to more than one amp.

 That's why preamps were invented.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How low? With my the fairly hard to drive 701s, I only go just past 9 o'clock. Given how efficient the Grados are, you must be down in the 7 o'clock range!_

 

 around 7 to 8 o'clock only 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_... on another issue with the C2C, has anyone noticed any strange "interference" with this amp? _

 

Well no interference with mine because its just connected to the DAC. DVD player and PC connected to DAC


----------



## jc9394

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With the RS-1, I am careful to leave the volume at a very very low level 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks,I guess I have to try it myself as this amp is still very new...


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_With the RS-1, I am careful to leave the volume at a very very low level 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

This seems to be a bit of a characteristic of Audio-gd headphone amps: more gain than you'll ever need. I would personally prefer it if it worked just like my Corda Opera where the volume dial always hovers around 12 o'clock. It's the best place to be to avoid channel instability too.

 Do you actually notice any channel instability when you listen at the lowest possible volume? If not, it could be that the CAST technology is preventing it. (Which would be nice.)


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This seems to be a bit of a characteristic of Audio-gd headphone amps: more gain than you'll ever need. I would personally prefer it if it worked just like my Corda Opera where the volume dial always hovers around 12 o'clock. It's the best place to be to avoid channel instability too.

 Do you actually notice any channel instability when you listen at the lowest possible volume? If not, it could be that the CAST technology is preventing it. (Which would be nice.)_

 

At the lowest volume, when the source is not playing the C-2C is silent. When i turn the source on, I can already hear it playing. 8'clock is already very loud on the RS-1. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What exactly do you mean by channel instability? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Though I discern no problems even at this low volume setting


----------



## santacore

No issues with my unit at low volumes. No issues with my low imp. Denon D7000's. They sound fantastic.

  Quote:


 I just received some notes on my Reference One from Kingwa. He said amongst other things, that I shouldn't connect any of the outputs at the same time. So, either RCA, or XLR, or CAST 
 

That's interesting. I have a Xindak dac that has 3 outputs. I'm using the tube rca's to my integrated amp, and the xlr's to my C-2C. Everything is left connected all the time. I haven't noticed any sonic issues, but it makes me wonder. I'll have to look into that.


----------



## Skylab

I have posted my review:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...lifier-417975/


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At the lowest volume, when the source is not playing the C-2C is silent. When i turn the source on, I can already hear it playing. 8'clock is already very loud on the RS-1. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *santacore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No issues with my unit at low volumes. No issues with my low imp. Denon D7000's. They sound fantastic._

 

That sounds good, although it also sounds like the gain of the C-2C could be a little lower as well. It does seem like quiet listening on the Grado's could be a little difficult (or at least doesn't have much room on the volume dial).

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What exactly do you mean by channel instability? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Though I discern no problems even at this low volume setting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Channel instability is something that basically occurs with volume pots in any normal configuration. It causes one channel to be softer than the other or drop out completely at the extremes of the volume dial. The Compass certainly has it (but, as I said, it's basically unavoidable), which actually does cause me some trouble with more sensitive or closed phones. (But mine is still the prototype with the high gain levels, this was fixed in the later versions.)

 Still, it does sound like the upcoming Phoenix could do with slightly more conservative gain levels.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have posted my review:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...lifier-417975/_

 

I just finished reading it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That sounds good, although it also sounds like the gain of the C-2C could be a little lower as well. It does seem like quiet listening on the Grado's could be a little difficult (or at least doesn't have much room on the volume dial)._

 

Well you still can listen quietly, with just a little movement on the volume knob, or sometimes I lower the volume on Amarok (media player) when I want to use the volume knob on the C-2C more for the RS-1 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Can't do this though when Im listening to CDs via the transport 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Channel instability is something that basically occurs with volume pots in any normal configuration. It causes one channel to be softer than the other or drop out completely at the extremes of the volume dial. The Compass certainly has it (but, as I said, it's basically unavoidable), which actually does cause me some trouble with more sensitive or closed phones. (But mine is still the prototype with the high gain levels, this was fixed in the later versions.)

 Still, it does sound like the upcoming Phoenix could do with slightly more conservative gain levels._

 

Ah no problems like this encountered


----------



## deadie

Yup, I think you hit it right on the head - that the C2C may just be particularly sensitive to any output "voltage splitting" from the DAC. Maybe it's getting too weak a signal at that point, thus the clipping?



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think what you are doing is simply something that you shouldn't be doing. Why no other amps have given similar distortion with such a configuration I don't know. (EDIT: Although it might have something to do with the particular kind of signal amplification that the CAST-circuitry requires.)

 I just received some notes on my Reference One from Kingwa. He said amongst other things, that I shouldn't connect any of the outputs at the same time. So, either RCA, or XLR, or CAST. I figure that is because you are dealing with a single signal output circuit, which runs into trouble voltage-wise when you use more than one type of connection. That is where I think your distortion comes from. You would need more amplification of the output signal to feed it to more than one amp.

 That's why preamps were invented. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## adamjames37

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Adam, thanks for the review 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Could you possibly briefly directly compare the DAC-19 with the Zero? Also, what opamp/HDAM are you using with the Zero?_

 

Not a problem. I have only ever used the Earth HDAM in my Zero DAC.

 Comparing the main differences between the DAC-19 and Zero I find the sound stage, clarity and dynamics are quite a bit better on the DAC-19. The attribute the DAC-19 has that stands out the most for me is the gorgeous analog sound. The sound is very real and instruments have become believable. I find that S's are extremely smooth have lost all digital harshness. I also find I get the effect I am not wearing headphones at all but rather listening to live instruments. The Zero DAC was capable of this but not to the extent of the DAC-19.

 I believe that even though a Zero DAC with HDAM greatly reduces the digital harshness VS. a Zero with op-amps on the output stage, the AD1852 DAC itself has a more digital sound to it than PCM1704UK. You also have to keep in mind that the DAC-19 has a separate digital filter chip and is not on-board like with the AD1852. There are also two PCM1704UK chips used in the DAC-19 since they are mono chips and the AD1852 is stereo.

 The AD1852 is an all in one DAC chip and in my opinion is like an op-amp of DAC chips. What I mean by this is that the AD1852 is a small all-in-one DAC which makes it ideal for use in portable devices and such along with an op-amp on the output stage. The kind of DAC in the DAC-19 (called Sign Magnitude) is a fairly significant step up from Sigma-Delta DAC's like the AD1852 with the DAC-19 being a more elaborate design and something you would only find in a good full-sized desktop DAC (just like discrete output stages). This kind of DAC is only possible with a large desktop unit and the DAC-19 is no exception (it's bigger than my Denon DVD-2910). 

 Even when compared to the DAC-19, the Zero DAC is still a great sounding little DAC for the money. The only complaint I really have is that the output is not as quiet as it could be. 

 Hope this helps!


----------



## ttnl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adamjames37* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not a problem. I have only ever used the Earth HDAM in my Zero DAC.

 Comparing the main differences between the DAC-19 and Zero I find the sound stage, clarity and dynamics are quite a bit better on the DAC-19. The attribute the DAC-19 has that stands out the most for me is the gorgeous analog sound. The sound is very real and instruments have become believable. I find that S's are extremely smooth have lost all digital harshness. I also find I get the effect I am not wearing headphones at all but rather listening to live instruments. The Zero DAC was capable of this but not to the extent of the DAC-19.

 I believe that even though a Zero DAC with HDAM greatly reduces the digital harshness VS. a Zero with op-amps on the output stage, the AD1852 DAC itself has a more digital sound to it than PCM1704UK. You also have to keep in mind that the DAC-19 has a separate digital filter chip and is not on-board like with the AD1852. There are also two PCM1704UK chips used in the DAC-19 since they are mono chips and the AD1852 is stereo.

 The AD1852 is an all in one DAC chip and in my opinion is like an op-amp of DAC chips. What I mean by this is that the AD1852 is a small all-in-one DAC which makes it ideal for use in portable devices and such along with an op-amp on the output stage. The kind of DAC in the DAC-19 (called Sign Magnitude) is a fairly significant step up from Sigma-Delta DAC's like the AD1852 with the DAC-19 being a more elaborate design and something you would only find in a good full-sized desktop DAC (just like discrete output stages). This kind of DAC is only possible with a large desktop unit and the DAC-19 is no exception (it's bigger than my Denon DVD-2910). 

 Even when compared to the DAC-19, the Zero DAC is still a great sounding little DAC for the money. The only complaint I really have is that the output is not as quiet as it could be. 

 Hope this helps!_

 

So you say the DAC19SE costs twice as much as the Zero DAC but only offer a slight step-up in term of sound quality. I thought Zero DAC is worse than Compass DAC, and Compass DAC only performs about 50% of DAC19SE level.


----------



## haloxt

"quite a bit" is another phrase for "a lot"


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Still, it does sound like the upcoming Phoenix could do with slightly more conservative gain levels._

 

I wonder if it's programmable using the digital Vol control it will be using ? I would think a 3db gain would be ideal. I better chat with Kingwa about this.

 The C-2C uses a BV Alps RK27 50K ohm pot so any channel imbalance will have to be lived with WRT cans that are super efficient ...there are some solutions available though, one being cheap the other kinda spendy.

 The cheap method is to build/buy an impedance adapter for the cans that ups the load to say 300 ohms (which isn't an ideal solution) while the other involves installation of a much better vol pot like the one Curra had installed on his second C-2C (by Kingwa). The Gold Point pot is around 170US but is the best pot you can get IMO.....hardly a cheap solution. How a Chinese DACT clone would measure up to a GP or even the stock Alps is an unknown but I suppose that could be another viable choice. The DACT and GP operate on the same principle (one set of resistors in the signal path at any given vol level). These are stepped attenuators BTW, something to keep in mind.

 One other possibility is to contact Kingwa at the time of order to see if the gain structure can be reduced (as a custom order). It's worth a try at least.

 Peete.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wonder if it's programmable using the digital Vol control it will be using ? I would think a 3db gain would be ideal. I better chat with Kingwa about this.

 The C-2C uses a BV Alps RK27 50K ohm pot so any channel imbalance will have to be lived with WRT cans that are super efficient ...there are some solutions available though, one being cheap the other kinda spendy.

 The cheap method is to build/buy an impedance adapter for the cans that ups the load to say 300 ohms (which isn't an ideal solution) while the other involves installation of a much better vol pot like the one Curra had installed on his second C-2C (by Kingwa). The Gold Point pot is around 170US but is the best pot you can get IMO.....hardly a cheap solution. How a Chinese DACT clone would measure up to a GP or even the stock Alps is an unknown but I suppose that could be another viable choice. The DACT and GP operate on the same principle (one set of resistors in the signal path at any given vol level). These are stepped attenuators BTW, something to keep in mind.

 One other possibility is to contact Kingwa at the time of order to see if the gain structure can be reduced (as a custom order). It's worth a try at least._

 

Thanks for the elaborate reply!

 I think I could be very happy with a gain of 3 dB. (EDIT: Or rather it's CAST equivalent. I've no idea how that would work out actually.) I gather from the Compass thread that users of the new Compass with 9dB gain are now listening at around 9 o'clock on the volume dial. That's okay, but in my opinion gain could still be lowered a little more. Certainly if we take into consideration the people who would listen with IEMs. 3 dB would do it, I think. I assume that would put regular listening levels at about 10:30-11:30. (I hope that's still okay for it to have enough amplification gain to work as a preamp too.)

 I will consider the options of a Goldpoint pot or custom lowered gain too. It will be a while before I order a Phoenix, so I'll have plenty of time to think about it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I do have one other concern as to the upcoming Phoenix and that concerns the still rather flat soundstage that Skylab noticed in his review of the C-2C. But I'll post about that in the appropriate thread, this is the C-2C thread after all.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the elaborate reply!

 I think I could be very happy with a gain of 3 dB. (EDIT: Or rather it's CAST equivalent. I've no idea how that would work out actually.) I gather from the Compass thread that users of the new Compass with 9dB gain are now listening at around 9 o'clock on the volume dial. That's okay, but in my opinion gain could still be lowered a little more. Certainly if we take into consideration the people who would listen with IEMs. 3 dB would do it, I think. I assume that would put regular listening levels at about 10:30-11:30. (I hope that's still okay for it to have enough amplification gain to work as a preamp too.)

 I will consider the options of a Goldpoint pot or custom lowered gain too. It will be a while before I order a Phoenix, so I'll have plenty of time to think about it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do have one other concern as to the upcoming Phoenix and that concerns the still rather flat soundstage that Skylab noticed in his review of the C-2C. But I'll post about that in the appropriate thread, this is the C-2C thread after all._

 

It seems CAST eliminates the whole way gain is applied...see the Phoenix page for the details. My bad on that call.

 I couldn't read the Japanese page where Kingwa has the link to explain CAST in detail so when I emailed him he explained as best he could.

 As far as the flat SS is concerned with the C-2C I can't say much about it as I've yet to really sit down and listen intently but casual listening revealed a pretty good breadth of image. I also have at least 175 more hours on my C-2C than Sky has so that may or may not have something to do with it but I can't be 100% sure at this point. The source is the puter and the Compass DAC for now. I still need to try it with the RE1 XLR outs. Once I have cables to do so that is.

 I'll definitely focus on that aspect and see what I can come up with in the next few days (I'd like to get to 550 hours first and play a hunch).

 Peete.


----------



## theBigD

well, I decided to get the c2c. i bought a stello da100 to go with it. so hopefully it will be the nice step up from my current setup. I emailed kingwa this morning to lower the gain on the c2c from 15 to 13 becuase that is the high gain on the compass, and i didnt have any problems running my headphones in the lower 8 to 10 position on the compass. and if i ever get high impedance headphones there would be plenty of power to spare. 

 still wonder if 11 or 9 might be even better for the gain. just dont want to limit the headroom to much.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It seems CAST eliminates the whole way gain is applied...see the Phoenix page for the details. My bad on that call.
_

 

So does this mean that I should try to maximize the use of the volume knob?

 I could lower the output of the source to maximize the volume knob of the c-2c 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 @BigD- Congrats on your purchases


----------



## squall343

for the price of C2C...

 is there any other solid state amp that are just as good or better ?

 then what is the normal price of c2c now? 400USD?


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_still wonder if 11 or 9 might be even better for the gain. just dont want to limit the headroom to much._

 

Unless you're going to get 600 Ohm Beyers sometime soon, I'd probably consider 11. 13 will still have heaps of headroom though.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_for the price of C2C...

 is there any other solid state amp that are just as good or better ?

 then what is the normal price of c2c now? 400USD?_

 

See Skylab's review. He's the only person as far as I know who has an idea how it compares to amps in the mid-hundreds.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So does this mean that I should try to maximize the use of the volume knob?

 I could lower the output of the source to maximize the volume knob of the c-2c 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

If you are using foobar, there are some people who say that reducing the volume in foobar reduces the bitresolution of the output. I don't know if it's true or not, but it might be worth looking into.
 For the rest, if you don't have any problem with 'room on the volume knob' it's usually best to keep the source at full volume. I get the feeling that the whole CAST configuration rather does away with the problem of channel instability anyways.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unless you're going to get 600 Ohm Beyers sometime soon, I'd probably consider 11. 13 will still have heaps of headroom though._

 

I'm using the 13 dB gain Compass with 600 ohm open AKGs and still the volume dial doesn't reach 9 o'clock (and that's really loud already), so I doubt 600 ohm Beyers would prove much of a challenge, even if the gain was around 3 or so. The only problem with such a low gain that I can see, is the Phoenix driving an AKG K1000 (or K340). Apparently Kingwa assured at least one person that the Phoenix would do that fine (but I don't know if Kingwa is actually familiar with the K1000).

 Anyways, it says on the Phoenix page that the Phoenix will have a maximum gain of 12 dB, compared to the C-2C which has a maximum gain of 20 dB. So I guess gain is lowered in comparison to the C-2C.


----------



## santacore

Quote:


 then what is the normal price of c2c now? 400USD? 
 

I think around $400 to your door is the current price direct from Audio-Gd. I believe Pacific Valve is also selling these now, so check with them for pricing.

  Quote:


 is there any other solid state amp that are just as good or better ? 
 

For the money, I think the C-2C is best I've heard. I've owned a few amps in this price range and feel that the C-2C competes or beats all of them.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you are using foobar, there are some people who say that reducing the volume in foobar reduces the bitresolution of the output. I don't know if it's true or not, but it might be worth looking into.
 For the rest, if you don't have any problem with 'room on the volume knob' it's usually best to keep the source at full volume. I get the feeling that the whole CAST configuration rather does away with the problem of channel instability anyways._

 

Ah ok. Im actually using Amarok as my media player and connect to the DAC via ALSA. CAST is getting me confused hehe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using the 13 dB gain Compass with 600 ohm open AKGs and still the volume dial doesn't reach 9 o'clock (and that's really loud already), so I doubt 600 ohm Beyers would prove much of a challenge, even if the gain was around 3 or so. The only problem with such a low gain that I can see, is the Phoenix driving an AKG K1000 (or K340). Apparently Kingwa assured at least one person that the Phoenix would do that fine (but I don't know if Kingwa is actually familiar with the K1000).

 Anyways, it says on the Phoenix page that the Phoenix will have a maximum gain of 12 dB, compared to the C-2C which has a maximum gain of 20 dB. So I guess gain is lowered in comparison to the C-2C._

 

Now Im wondering if the C-2C has enough power to drive a K1000


----------



## haloxt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you are using foobar, there are some people who say that reducing the volume in foobar reduces the bitresolution of the output. I don't know if it's true or not, but it might be worth looking into._

 

I just randomly threw out that crazy theory to explain any possible reduction in sq due to using foobar's built-in volume control (as opposed to windows volume control which gets bypassed by ASIO), but I think foobar's volume is perfectly fine. If you use foobar+asio and you want to turn the knob of the c-2c with more room I think nothing bad can happen using lower foobar volume. I should've mentioned this to you earlier Drosera since I know you use very low impedance headphones with your compass :[ sorry.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just randomly threw out that crazy theory to explain any possible reduction in sq due to using foobar's built-in volume control (as opposed to windows volume control which gets bypassed by ASIO), but I think foobar's volume is perfectly fine. If you use foobar+asio and you want to turn the knob of the c-2c with more room I think nothing bad can happen using lower foobar volume. I should've mentioned this to you earlier Drosera since I know you use very low impedance headphones with your compass :[ sorry._

 

No worries, I actually didn't hear this 'rumour' from you anyways. There have been some other people spreading it, here and elsewhere. (Glad it ain't a problem though.) Is there even a volume knob in foobar 0.8? I haven't found it yet.

 Unfortunately, I'm hardly using foobar. Now, if I could find a way to lower the volume of my cd player's digital-out....


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now Im wondering if the C-2C has enough power to drive a K1000 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Actually, I'm quite confident it can. Although it was designed to be driven by a speaker amp, a really powerful headphone amp will do the trick too. For example, there is at least one person using a Phonitor to drive a K1000. I think the C-2C could manage it.

 And otherwise you could buy the Panther for it.


----------



## haloxt

Yep, you have to go to the DSP Manager page and add volume control DSP. If you really like the spreadsheet look of foobar 0.8 but not the lean sound of 0.51.7 (I like the fullness of mediamonkey but it is cpu intensive) you could also try out the other ones on that webpage ASIO builds 2.0


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yep, you have to go to the DSP Manager page and add volume control DSP. If you really like the spreadsheet look of foobar 0.8 but not the lean sound of 0.51.7 (I like the fullness of mediamonkey but it is cpu intensive) you could also try out the other ones on that webpage ASIO builds 2.0_

 

Ah, thanks! I actually tried out most of those alternative builds, only I can't get the .exe ones to work properly. Never mind, let's not turn this into a foobar discussion.


----------



## isao2k8

My C-2C arrived about a week ago.







 (Shanling PH100, Zero DAC and C-2C)

 Yes, honestly, C-2C is not small. But I think it's useful for cooling the amp itself.

 Shanling PH100 ($218 on eBay) is known as a quite bargain solid-state headphone amp, so I tried to compare C-2C to it. First, in my personal opinion, they are in the same league. So I need more time to listem them... and will post about them later


----------



## squall343

i decided to take the plunge for the C2C

 and selling off my darkvoice 332

 hopefully it will be the right choice


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *isao2k8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My C-2C arrived about a week ago.

 (Shanling PH100, Zero DAC and C-2C)

 Yes, honestly, C-2C is not small. But I think it's useful for cooling the amp itself.

 Shanling PH100 ($218 on eBay) is known as a quite bargain solid-state headphone amp, so I tried to compare C-2C to it. First, in my personal opinion, they are in the same league. So I need more time to listem them... and will post about them later 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nice cat! Nice stack of popular headphone-equipment too. I think there's a good chance you will start to hear clearer differences between the two amps once you put an improved source behind them. (Yeah, I know, one thing at the time. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## zerodeefex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *isao2k8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My C-2C arrived about a week ago.






 (Shanling PH100, Zero DAC and C-2C)

 Yes, honestly, C-2C is not small. But I think it's useful for cooling the amp itself.

 Shanling PH100 ($218 on eBay) is known as a quite bargain solid-state headphone amp, so I tried to compare C-2C to it. First, in my personal opinion, they are in the same league. So I need more time to listem them... and will post about them later 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

My hand is poised over the buy button waiting for your assessment


----------



## Pyriel0

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zerodeefex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My hand is poised over the buy button waiting for your assessment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Lol I'm wondering how it will turn out too.


----------



## santacore

Last night I plugged in my HD-650's that have sat unused for a long time. What a nice surprise! With the C-2C, the Senn's sounded better then I ever remember them sounding before. I can't wait until I get home from work so that I can spin them again. Good stuff!


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *isao2k8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My C-2C arrived about a week ago.






 (Shanling PH100, Zero DAC and C-2C)

 Yes, honestly, C-2C is not small. But I think it's useful for cooling the amp itself.

 Shanling PH100 ($218 on eBay) is known as a quite bargain solid-state headphone amp, so I tried to compare C-2C to it. First, in my personal opinion, they are in the same league. So I need more time to listem them... and will post about them later 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think your cat wants to audition the C-2C too


----------



## tim3320070

I am letting it burn in a few days before I comment further but I will post impressions. Oodles of power I must say. I can't imagine any headphone having a problem with it. Just in the few hours I've had it running, it has smoothed out quite a bit (I wasn't real impressed the first few minutes- narrow and a bit harsh sounding- with no warm-up).
 I am coming from a Cambridge Audio 640A integrated headphone out which has pretty good sound, better than average I'd say. C-2C has maybe double the output as a guess. I would guess I could pop an eardrum at full volume.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nice cat! Nice stack of popular headphone-equipment too...._

 

LMAO, I looked beyond the gear at first and thought the same thing. Isao should figure out a way to let him listen since he's definitely interested. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 All of the impressions and pics of the C2C and Compass are getting me fired up. I ordered in late March, I hope mine are included in the shipment tomorrow...


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just in the few hours I've had it running, it has smoothed out quite a bit (I wasn't real impressed the first few minutes- narrow and a bit harsh sounding- with no warm-up)._

 

Audio-gd equipment needs time to warm-up, as I noted in the Reference One thread, that unit needs close to an hour to start sounding really good. I've also noticed with the Compass that it needs at least twenty minutes to start showing its full potential.
 I hope the sound mellows out a little more. It shouldn't be harsh at all when its 'matured' a bit. At least, that's what I got from Skylab's review.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Audio-gd equipment needs time to warm-up, as I noted in the Reference One thread, that unit needs close to an hour to start sounding really good. I've also noticed with the Compass that it needs at least twenty minutes to start showing its full potential.
 I hope the sound mellows out a little more. It shouldn't be harsh at all when its 'matured' a bit. At least, that's what I got from Skylab's review._

 

How many additional hours do you figure is needed to make an improvement- I see some are going for 100 hours additional to what Kingwa puts on it before critical listening?


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How many additional hours do you figure is needed to make an improvement- I see some are going for 100 hours additional to what Kingwa puts on it before critical listening?_

 

Depends on who you ask, Skylab obviously thought 120 additional hours would be plenty, the Audio-gd burn-in advocates would probably suggest something closer to 400 or 500 hours. My stance towards burn-in has always been: why worry, if it happens it will happen through use. Unless your in a hurry to get to the fully matured sound it has to offer, I would say: enjoy what it gives you now, enjoy whatever developments may still occur.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Your headphone stand is really cool isao2K8 but it smells like tuna 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The C-2C / HD650 combination is a good one, great synergy IMO. 

 It's a good amp that scales very well with upstream improvements.

 Peete.


----------



## theBigD

well part one of my c2c upgrade got here today. my stello da-100. so far i am very pleased that i decided to go with a better dac and amp combo. i find the sound of the stello to be more balanced to my ear than the compass was. I like the upsampling feature seems to add a little sparkle to everything, and the dac just sounds so damn natural, its a real pleasure to listen to. 

 now i hope the c2c ships out pretty soon, i believe it should be this sunday. i cant wait! oh and i had the gain reduced to 11 like some of you suggested, i think this will work very well especially for my d7000. with my ef1 i can barely get the volume out of the unstable 7:30 position to listen to music! not sure what the gain is on the ef1 but i think its higher than the high gain of the compass.


----------



## isao2k8

As I mentioned the last post, I compared Audio-gd C-2C ($335) to Shanling PH100 ($218) with K701. I'm not good at English so write up the report simply 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Their keywords are...

*C-2C:* flat, neutral, smooth, clear, wider soundstage
*PH100:* warm, rich, musical, powerful

 Finally, I couldn't decide which was better. PH100's sound is definitely colorized and C-2C is not. However, I like PH100's color especially with K701, which has neutral sound charactor itself.

 I think C-2C fits in with more cans than PH100. If you use K701 and want most bang for the buck amp, I recommend PH100.


----------



## squall343

Does anyone know whether the RCA or the XLR input make any differences in term of sound quality?


----------



## tonsosnot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does anyone know whether the RCA or the XLR input make any differences in term of sound quality?_

 

I'm very curious about this also. I've seen quite a few people say that XLR input to a single-ended output is pointless, as you lose any benefits you gain from the balanced input. But it seems that Audio-GD's designs have been well thought out, so its odd to have pointless connections on the amp. 

 One of the reasons that I'm interested in this amp is that it allows you to try out balanced setups without recabling or getting adapters for SE headphones. But if there's no benefit to running XLR, the amp has a lot of competition in the price range (KIKAS, M^3, etc).

 Looking forward to impressions.


----------



## deadie

I've tested my PS Audio DLIII with the C2C, and can confirm that there is a very slight boost in audio quality by using the DLIII's balanced connectors vs. RCA. 

 Mind you, that's the simple answer:

 1) Yes, balanced input in the C2C could genuinely sound "better". Or...
 2) The balanced output of the DLIII produces better sound
 3) Balanced SignalCables sound better than AudioArt RCAs
 4) or I'm full of it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Ultimately the sound difference was very small, but keep in mind that the delta was within a context of very high quality sound. In other words, the DLIII, C2C, and AKG701 / Senn600 all play so well together, that it sounded awesome regardless of RCA or balanced. 

 It'd be like either eating a rib eye or a kobe filet mignon off the belly of a supermodel, watching a sunset in Hawaii, while sitting in a Ferrari or a Lambo. aahh...


 wha?
 what the hell was I talking about again?

 Oh yeah. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So to end, my experience shows that there is a difference with my equipment. No idea if there would be an appreciable delta with any other balanced amps.

 ... but I can say that the entire balanced ecosystem has paid off for me, as I appreciate the sonic boosts it gives to my Balanced Headroom desktop and all my balanced cans. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tonsosnot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm very curious about this also. I've seen quite a few people say that XLR input to a single-ended output is pointless, as you lose any benefits you gain from the balanced input. But it seems that Audio-GD's designs have been well thought out, so its odd to have pointless connections on the amp. 

 One of the reasons that I'm interested in this amp is that it allows you to try out balanced setups without recabling or getting adapters for SE headphones. But if there's no benefit to running XLR, the amp has a lot of competition in the price range (KIKAS, M^3, etc).

 Looking forward to impressions._


----------



## tonsosnot

Even if the balanced inputs on C2C don't make a difference, its at least +10 style points for just using them.


----------



## Solid Snake

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tonsosnot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm very curious about this also. I've seen quite a few people say that XLR input to a single-ended output is pointless, as you lose any benefits you gain from the balanced input. But it seems that Audio-GD's designs have been well thought out, so its odd to have pointless connections on the amp. 

 One of the reasons that I'm interested in this amp is that it allows you to try out balanced setups without recabling or getting adapters for SE headphones. But if there's no benefit to running XLR, the amp has a lot of competition in the price range (KIKAS, M^3, etc).

 Looking forward to impressions._

 

Similar question came to my mind when I saw this amp. It was the only reason why I did not go for it.


----------



## squall343

according to an earlier email conversation with kingwa

 XLR input is better than the rca input in terms of sound quality


----------



## Solid Snake

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_according to an earlier email conversation with kingwa

 XLR input is better than the rca input in terms of sound quality_

 

Im sure...but the downfall is that the output jack is only SE and not XLR...


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Solid Snake* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Im sure...but the downfall is that the output jack is only SE and not XLR..._

 

i guess you should wait for their balanced phoenix amp

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/aud...ne-amp-417553/


----------



## tonsosnot

The Phoenix is 3x the price of the C2C. Someone tell Kingwa to make a single-ended output amp with all of the benefits of balanced inputs. Also, make it on the cheap. kkthxbye!

 Seriously though, I wish there was a way to try balanced without investing in a whole balanced set-up. New DAC + new amp + recabled headphones is a lot to bite off at once for most of us. 

 Oh well. Probably better for the wallet anyway..


----------



## Pricklely Peete

You guys are forgetting about CAST and how it applies to the C-2C via the XLR inputs. 

 Ask Kingwa for details.

 Peete.

 PS The Phoenix will have CAST inputs (for use with the RE1 CAST outputs) and fully differential 4 channel I/O. That's a lot more circuitry than the 2 channel analog out of the C-2C not to mention the digital vol and separate PSU design/chassis. That's a good price (3 X the C-2C) for such a unit considering what is has under the hoods.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You guys are forgetting about CAST and how it applies to the C-2C via the XLR inputs. 

 Ask Kingwa for details.

 Peete.

 PS The Phoenix will have CAST inputs (for use with the RE1 CAST outputs) and fully differential 4 channel I/O. That's a lot more circuitry than the 2 channel analog out of the C-2C not to mention the digital vol and separate PSU design/chassis. That's a good price (3 X the C-2C) for such a unit considering what is has under the hoods._

 

The Phoenix appears to be a C3 with all the Modules stripped and fitted to the small board, with a Power supply better than the C3 but not quite the C8. Also the Cast Modules were tweaked for Output to be a Headamp. 

 So, it's a Tweaked C3 with a considerably upgraded Pwr supply. Thats what it looks like to me at least. I wonder how emotionally attached he is to the Chinese Characters on the front?

 There's no comparision between the Phoenix and the C-2C, they don't play in the same league.

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

The Phoenix is actually closer to the C8SE Les, they share the same PSU design and front end for the most part minus the C8SE's CAST outputs. Other than that the diff according to Kingwa is very little SQ wise.

 The interesting thing about the C-2C is the balanced inputs... and how that works vs the SE inputs, that difference being better left to Kingwa to explain fully. 

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Phoenix is actually closer to the C8SE Les, they share the same PSU design and front end for the most part minus the C8SE's CAST outputs. Other than that the diff according to Kingwa is very little SQ wise.

 The interesting thing about the C-2C is the balanced inputs... and how that works vs the SE inputs, that difference being better left to Kingwa to explain fully. 

 Peete._

 

I think we're on the same page. The only difference between a C-3 and a C-8 is the PSU. The Head units are the same. The Phoenix has for all practical purposes the same Controller, just de-nuded modules to fit on a smaller board. I thought that the last time I looked that the Phoenix had CAST Out, has that changed in the last few days?

 .


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Hi Les,

 I asked Kingwa about that quite sometime back and his answer to me made sense from his end of things. He doesn't want to squeeze out sales of his C3SE/C8SE preamps. Like competing with himself so to speak.

 He read my answer about the Phoenix being more like the C8SE and wrote me an email saying you were closer to the truth on that one (C3SE). So accept my apology Les and Head Fi for a small error on my part. 

 Having CAST output would be nice though (for any future amp upgrades) but I understand why it won't be added.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Les,

 I asked Kingwa about that quite sometime back and his answer to me made sense from his end of things. He doesn't want to squeeze out sales of his C3SE/C8SE preamps. Like competing with himself so to speak.

 He read my answer about the Phoenix being more like the C8SE and wrote me an email saying you were closer to the truth on that one (C3SE). So accept my apology Les and Head Fi for a small error on my part. 

 Having CAST output would be nice though (for any future amp upgrades) but I understand why it won't be added.

 Peete._

 

Not sure I understand why an apology would be warranted. 

*Anyhow, didn't the first posting of the Phoenix have CAST out? *

 Has he decided to remove that? 

 Maybe my questions did me in. I've been asking a lot of questions about C-3/C-8/Phoenix. I've been looking at the controllers carefully and the PSUs carefully.


----------



## Mik

I don't remember the Phoenix ever being mentioned as having a CAST output. I believe it's supposed to have 1 CAST input however.

 From my perspective, I'm very pleased with my current amplifier (dual mono B&O 1000ASP icepower) which doesn't have CAST inputs. I'd much rather have the balanced headphone outputs of the Phoenix than CAST outputs I'll never use.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Indeed you are correct Mik and yes it makes no sense to have CAST unless you can make use of it. Since I have an RE1 I want to make use of it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

If it had CAST out, it would be a ~~C-6 or so. It would be the perfect gadget for Preamp/Headamp. Better than a C-3 and Not quite a C-8 but with an awesome Headamp output.

 .


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed you are correct Mik and yes it makes no sense to have CAST unless you can make use of it. Since I have an RE1 I want to make use of it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete._

 

I got Kingwa to add CAST outputs to the 19MK3 for me as I am buying the CIA-400 amp he sells.....so I'll make use of them too. I just wish it had balanced outs for the C-2C.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got Kingwa to add CAST outputs to the 19MK3 for me as I am buying the CIA-400 amp he sells.....so I'll make use of them too. I just wish it had balanced outs for the C-2C._

 

Me and Lemo are having "discussions" about what connector is being used. Do yo have the Lemo part number for the CAST connector? I have some from Kingwa, but would like to see the Lemo branded one's as well.

 .


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Me and Lemo are having "discussions" about what connector is being used. Do yo have the Lemo part number for the CAST connector? I have some from Kingwa, but would like to see the Lemo branded one's as well.

 ._

 

I don't. I asked Drew from Moon Audio if he could make a CAST cable for me but he said the LEMO connectors were $45 (pair or each I don't know- per what Krell uses)). I doubt Kingwa is using LEMO brand connectors if he asks $15 for a pair of complete CAST cables. Kingwa is including extra CAST connectors in my order for me to have Drew make a "upgrade" CAST cable for me. He keeps pushing the CAST sound as "water" versus the RCA sound as "Coca Cola" so who am I to question it? I am going for CAST all the way I guess. I will post impressions when I receive/burn-in.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't. I asked Drew from Moon Audio if he could make a CAST cable for me but he said the LEMO connectors were $45 (pair or each I don't know- per what Krell uses)). I doubt Kingwa is using LEMO brand connectors if he asks $15 for a pair of complete CAST cables. Kingwa is including extra CAST connectors in my order for me to have Drew make a "upgrade" CAST cable for me. He keeps pushing the CAST sound as "water" versus the RCA sound as "Coca Cola" so who am I to question it? I am going for CAST all the way I guess. I will post impressions when I receive/burn-in._

 

I got a handfull of Cast connectors from Kingwa also. They are available in Asia only, as far as I can tell from the number on them. They do not engender a feeling of quality though. I haven't given up on LEMO yet. They're just a little slow to respond. 

 .


----------



## ttnl

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got Kingwa to add CAST outputs to the 19MK3 for me as I am buying the CIA-400 amp he sells.....so I'll make use of them too. I just wish it had balanced outs for the C-2C._

 

Hey Tim, is the DAC19MK3 ready for sale yet? I keep bugging Kingwa about its available date, and he says that he will email me when it is available. I wonder if he forgets to email me.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttnl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Tim, is the DAC19MK3 ready for sale yet? I keep bugging Kingwa about its available date, and he says that he will email me when it is available. I wonder if he forgets to email me._

 

according to him, it will only be shipping in early may 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but you can pre-order it first..which i did


----------



## ttnl

I think I will wait a little bit. I have just ordered a Buffalo DAC. My wallet needs time to recover.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ttnl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey Tim, is the DAC19MK3 ready for sale yet? I keep bugging Kingwa about its available date, and he says that he will email me when it is available. I wonder if he forgets to email me._

 

He says he hopes for shipment this month to me (19MK3 and CIA-400), but I know he must be behind given that he lost one of his employees and the Compass shipping debacle with DH-hell.
 Kingwa seems to do what he can (more than 99% of companies), so I would be patient and go ahead and make the order. I have faith in them.
 Side note, I accidentally (and unknown to me) overpaid them for some items I wanted...Kingwa sent me an email stating this and wanted to know about a refund back to me. With all the confusion and hesitation people have about sending money to China with nothing more than email confirmation, don't worry as everything this company does seems ligit and up-front. Commendable!


----------



## Drosera

.


----------



## squall343

just receive my c2c

 this thing is huge in size

 first impression is excellent

 1) gain seem to be rather big because i am listening to 8 o clock for my hd650

 2) this amp run rather warm..


----------



## theBigD

Congratulations! Sure hope I get my C2C today. I had Kingwa lower the gain from 15 to 11. Cant wait to hear it.


----------



## squall343

just run my C2C for almost 4 hrs

 it is as hot as my darkvoice 332 casing

 is it normal?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_just run my C2C for almost 4 hrs

 it is as hot as my darkvoice 332 casing

 is it normal? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I guess you don't have a thermometer? My DV 337SE runs about 178 F on the deck. Does your DV run that hot, because if it does, that seems a little hot for a C-2C? 

 .


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I guess you don't have a thermometer? My DV 337SE runs about 178 F on the deck. Does your DV run that hot, because if it does, that seems a little hot for a C-2C? 

 ._

 

not that hot..
 rather i can say it is warm

 Is it normal?

 I wonder does all solid state run that hot and what make the C2C warm? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 maybe is because my room temperature along is 32 Celsius now


----------



## theBigD

I used my roommates compass a bit and it ran warm, not hot. I dont have a thermometer but it was comparable to the ef1 i use now, although I run the ef1 topless and some tubes run hotter than others.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_not that hot..
 rather i can say it is warm

 Is it normal?

 I wonder does all solid state run that hot and what make the C2C warm? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 maybe is because my room temperature along is 32 Celsius now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well it has to make some heat, and it is probably Biased Class A. Everybody mentioned this in the Compass thread and to me it barely gets warm. You guys need to Chill out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You've never had any Krell or Threshold gear have you? That's heat!

 I've had threshold gear that ran 180-190 F on the Heatsinks. 

 If your room is 32 C, you need to get some of the heat out. If your gear is making some heat, then you don't exhaust the heat and the room stores that heat, then you just keep building heat in the room and your C-2C would seem to be running hot _*because it has no ventilation.*_

 .


----------



## theBigD

just got my C2C today! had it running 20 min. and it runs pretty cool so far. first impressions are very good. the bass is very clean and snappy my d7000 seems to really like this amp so far. I like the clean airy treble as well. the midrange seems a bit cloudy but hopefully this will clear up with some burn in. One thing I am dissappointed with is I asked Kingwa to reduce the gain from 15 to 11 and I dont think he did, its almost too loud at 8 on the dial!


----------



## tim3320070

Anyone used XLR inputs with a balanced DAC like the REF 1 or other? Does is sound better thru XLR vs. RCA? Can someone do a test that has both cables? I understand the C-2C is not a balanced amp so it would probably be the improvement in the source being heard, but I am curious.
 Thanks


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone used XLR inputs with a balanced DAC like the REF 1 or other? Does is sound better thru XLR vs. RCA? Can someone do a test that has both cables? I understand the C-2C is not a balanced amp so it would probably be the improvement in the source being heard, but I am curious.
 Thanks_

 

I gathered from Kingwa that the Ref 1 is specifically designed to work best using XLR, so in that case, I imagine it would. I just received the balanced version of the VDH cables I use, so I'll be able to do a direct comparison between them soon (usb audio interface just crapped itself last night so I can't use the Ref 1).


----------



## rogue

I just placed an order for one directly from Audio-gd. Won't ship for a week or so, but I can wait. 

 From all the good things I've read, it seems that this is amp is hard to beat for the money. I figure it will be a step-up from my HR-2 since it has discrete (non op-amp) based topology and also accepts balanced inputs, which I can finally use with my 840c. I was looking to spend ~$1500 on an amp, but I can't justify spending that much at the moment, and I figure that this will hold me off for a good while until I can save up and get something like a Luxman P-1. 

 I'll be using it with my DX1000's and the HD800 (whenever the hell it finally ships out). Any recommendations for some cheap balanced IC's? I'm not really looking to spend more than $100 (if at all possible).


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rogue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just placed an order for one directly from Audio-gd. Won't ship for a week or so, but I can wait. 

 From all the good things I've read, it seems that this is amp is hard to beat for the money. I figure it will be a step-up from my HR-2 since it has discrete (non op-amp) based topology and also accepts balanced inputs, which I can finally use with my 840c. I was looking to spend ~$1500 on an amp, but I can't justify spending that much at the moment, and I figure that this will hold me off for a good while until I can save up and get something like a Luxman P-1. 

 I'll be using it with my DX1000's and the HD800 (whenever the hell it finally ships out). Any recommendations for some cheap balanced IC's? I'm not really looking to spend more than $100 (if at all possible)._

 

Blue Jeans cable but DIY would be a better way to spend your coin and get better quality cables.

 Check out Take Five Audio for some decent quality parts if you should decide to roll your own. It's tough to find balanced cables under 100 dollars a pair.

 Peete.


----------



## deadie

If there's a Guitar Center or a Pro Musician store nearby, check out Mogami XLRs.


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rogue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just placed an order for one directly from Audio-gd. Won't ship for a week or so, but I can wait. 

 From all the good things I've read, it seems that this is amp is hard to beat for the money. I figure it will be a step-up from my HR-2 since it has discrete (non op-amp) based topology and also accepts balanced inputs, which I can finally use with my 840c. I was looking to spend ~$1500 on an amp, but I can't justify spending that much at the moment, and I figure that this will hold me off for a good while until I can save up and get something like a Luxman P-1. 

 I'll be using it with my DX1000's and the HD800 (whenever the hell it finally ships out). Any recommendations for some cheap balanced IC's? I'm not really looking to spend more than $100 (if at all possible)._


----------



## theBigD

How much will burn in affect sound with C2C? Do you think the compass required a bit more burn in becuase of hdams? 

 I think the C2C sounds more close to "right on" when I first powered it up than my 1 week experience with a compass seemed to suggest. The C2C sounded a bit recessed in the mids at first and after 30+ hours mids seem much more forward and it is easy to tell a poor recording from a good one. Some music can sound a bit bright and compressed or fatiguing I guess because I can easily tell its poorly mastered. The compass by comparison sounded a bit thick and syrupy till it got around 300 hrs then it opened up a bit and mids were more revealing ( I still think this is mostly limitation of DAC ).

 Anyway just wondering what others thought about burn in and how long it actually took for C2C to fully mature?


----------



## rogue

Thanks guys. DIY isn't really my thing, but I've meaning to get into it sooner or later. Right now I'm leaning towards the Enigma Audio Elementals, which I've heard good things about. $100 for 1m/UPOCC copper/Neutrik Golds - seems like a pretty good deal.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How much will burn in affect sound with C2C? Do you think the compass required a bit more burn in becuase of hdams? 

 I think the C2C sounds more close to "right on" when I first powered it up than my 1 week experience with a compass seemed to suggest. The C2C sounded a bit recessed in the mids at first and after 30+ hours mids seem much more forward and it is easy to tell a poor recording from a good one. Some music can sound a bit bright and compressed or fatiguing I guess because I can easily tell its poorly mastered. The compass by comparison sounded a bit thick and syrupy till it got around 300 hrs then it opened up a bit and mids were more revealing ( I still think this is mostly limitation of DAC ).

 Anyway just wondering what others thought about burn in and how long it actually took for C2C to fully mature?_

 

I must have 300 hours or so on it by now. I have been A/B testing against my amp HP out (this was a good way to see if there were improvements as the amp out was a static, second source). For the first 100 hours or so, it was a toss-up to my rather critical ear. Somewhere between the first hundred and now, it has clearly surpassed the amp HP out in about every way. This was a relief because at first, it was definitely not worth the $400 over what I already had. I have read that it needs a good hour of warm-up to be at it's best. I can't say one way or the other on that. Just run it 24/7 for a week or more.


----------



## theBigD

The amp already sounds incredible! I cant wait to hear more improvements. Definently paln to keep it running 24/7 for a week or 2. Hopefully by then I will have my Purity Audio Caliente to compare to it.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I find it takes around 600+ hours (give or take 25 hours) to completely settle down. My C-2C has around 650 or so on it now and it has improved a lot since delivery (200 hours Kingwa put on it for me as I had him hold it until my RE1 was ready to ship) a few weeks ago.

 Rogue : Those sound like some good cables to me...I'll have to check those out. Thanks.

 Peete.


----------



## K3cT

Hmm... I wonder how the C2C would compare to the Compass' amp section. I think I would much prefer a warm-ish SS amp for Denon to add body to its midrange, perhaps I should consider the KICAS or FET-A for my next installment.


----------



## Currawong

The C2C is considerably better than the Compass' amp section. It gives more soundstage, better separation and more detail than the Compass.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The C2C is considerably better than the Compass' amp section. It gives more soundstage, better separation and more detail than the Compass._

 

Does it still retain the same characteristic ie. transparent, clear, smooth-sounding? 

 Well, I suppose that 20% translates more in real-hearing experience.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does it still retain the same characteristic ie. transparent, clear, smooth-sounding?_

 

Obviously.


----------



## theBigD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm... I wonder how the C2C would compare to the Compass' amp section. I think I would much prefer a warm-ish SS amp for Denon to add body to its midrange, perhaps I should consider the KICAS or FET-A for my next installment._

 

So far I agree with currawong with the better qualities of C2C. I also wonder about improvement with a warmish SS amp. So in skylabs review he places C2C in between the KICAS and Caliente for sound signature. Ive ordered a Caliente becuase of this, and should have one soon to compare.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So far I agree with currawong with the better qualities of C2C. I also wonder about improvement with a warmish SS amp. So in skylabs review he places C2C in between the KICAS and Caliente for sound signature. Ive ordered a Caliente becuase of this, and should have one soon to compare._

 

I can't wait for your impressions on that although I've heard folks here commenting that the regular KICAS is more suitable for the Denon.


----------



## rx7mark

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So far I agree with currawong with the better qualities of C2C. I also wonder about improvement with a warmish SS amp. So in skylabs review he places C2C in between the KICAS and Caliente for sound signature. Ive ordered a Caliente becuase of this, and should have one soon to compare._

 

This got me to daydreaming about which Audio-GD DAC might have the best synergy with the C2C. Maybe the warmer sounding DAC-3SE or DAC-3DV. Or would the more neutral monitor like sound of the DAC-19MK3 or even the Ref1 be a better match?

 Any thoughts form those that have a C2C?

 Mark


----------



## lag0a

I think the C2C gets cooler as it gets use to your power source or it could be the power cable I'm using instead of a stock power cable. It is definately cooler than when I first got it. I have probably 200-300 hours on it now. I know for sure now that how clean your power line is changes the sound a lot.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rx7mark* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This got me to daydreaming about which Audio-GD DAC might have the best synergy with the C2C. Maybe the warmer sounding DAC-3SE or DAC-3DV. Or would the more neutral monitor like sound of the DAC-19MK3 or even the Ref1 be a better match?

 Any thoughts form those that have a C2C?

 Mark_

 

I was using a Lavry DA-10 with mine initially, which is pretty "cold and analytical"-sounding and was surprised that the combo worked so well. Skylab's review comments that the C2C was smooth and lush while remaining detailed explains things for me now. The obvious pairing is the DAC19MK3 which is the same size.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lag0a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the C2C gets cooler as it gets use to your power source or it could be the power cable I'm using instead of a stock power cable. It is definately cooler than when I first got it. I have probably 200-300 hours on it now. I know for sure now that how clean your power line is changes the sound a lot._

 

same sentiment with me also






 i think it is not even warm now..way way way cooler than before


----------



## zerodeefex

I placed an order last night, super excited. Next month I'll pick up a second set of K701s for the office to go with it and I'll most likely pick up a new DAC then too. My coworkers already wonder at the cans and CDPs I have littering my desk, time to add more gear


----------



## squall343

anyone know whether K701 is a good match with the C2C?

 i am planning to get the k701 for my classical tracks.

 but what i saw on another chinese forum, there are people who commented that the K701 have awful synery with the compass


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone know whether K701 is a good match with the C2C?

 i am planning to get the k701 for my classical tracks.

 but what i saw on another chinese forum, there are people who commented that the K701 have awful synery with the compass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I had that setup and found it more than adequate- gives the K701 a bit more punch to them and there is power aplenty.


----------



## isao2k8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone know whether K701 is a good match with the C2C?

 i am planning to get the k701 for my classical tracks.

 but what i saw on another chinese forum, there are people who commented that the K701 have awful synery with the compass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm using K701 with C-2C. The combo produces quite flat, neutral and accurate sound, I like it.


----------



## deadie

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone know whether K701 is a good match with the C2C?

 i am planning to get the k701 for my classical tracks.

 but what i saw on another chinese forum, there are people who commented that the K701 have awful synery with the compass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Funny I should read this now...

 Just the other night I was listening to the "Hush" CD from Bobby McFerrin & Yo Yo Ma, using my 701s through the C2C, and I just marveled at how good it sounded.

 So much air and imaging. Track 2 especially with McFerrin's voice echoing Ma's cello (or is it the other way around?). McFerrin's voice is so sweet and Ma's cello just rings and resonates.

 So ultimately, no idea on the Compass, since I don't have it, but the C2C just sings with the 701.

 FYI, this was coming out of a Squeezebox into my PS Audio DLIII DAC into the C2C's balanced inputs. Output to TRS to XLR adapter to my balanced AKG701.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had that setup and found it more than adequate- gives the K701 a bit more punch to them and there is power aplenty._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *isao2k8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm using K701 with C-2C. The combo produces quite flat, neutral and accurate sound, I like it._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *deadie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Funny I should read this now...

 Just the other night I was listening to the "Hush" CD from Bobby McFerrin & Yo Yo Ma, using my 701s through the C2C, and I just marveled at how good it sounded.

 So much air and imaging. Track 2 especially with McFerrin's voice echoing Ma's cello (or is it the other way around?). McFerrin's voice is so sweet and Ma's cello just rings and resonates.

 So ultimately, no idea on the Compass, since I don't have it, but the C2C just sings with the 701.

 FYI, this was coming out of a Squeezebox into my PS Audio DLIII DAC into the C2C's balanced inputs. Output to TRS to XLR adapter to my balanced AKG701._

 

I guess i will take the leap of faith on the K701 soon

 thanks for the advice


----------



## zerodeefex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zerodeefex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I placed an order last night, super excited. Next month I'll pick up a second set of K701s for the office to go with it and I'll most likely pick up a new DAC then too. My coworkers already wonder at the cans and CDPs I have littering my desk, time to add more gear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

How long is the wait time after ordering for these 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm already anticipating, even though I know it will be a few weeks before I see it.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zerodeefex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How long is the wait time after ordering for these 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm already anticipating, even though I know it will be a few weeks before I see it._

 

You should email Audio-gd and ask them, but generally about 2 weeks to a month going by my and other people's experiences.

 I'm almost wishing I kept my K701s now knowing now how good a match they would have been with the C2C.


----------



## theBigD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_anyone know whether K701 is a good match with the C2C?

 i am planning to get the k701 for my classical tracks.

 but what i saw on another chinese forum, there are people who commented that the K701 have awful synery with the compass 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I thought the compass sounded pretty good with k701 and i know others in the compass thread who also liked it. I think the compass sounded a bit warmer than my current setup with the stello dac and c2c and so I feel it actually synergized with my 701s better than my current dac amp combo. But with my d7000 I certainly prefer the more accurate and forward midrange I get with this setup.


----------



## zerodeefex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should email Audio-gd and ask them, but generally about 2 weeks to a month going by my and other people's experiences.

 I'm almost wishing I kept my K701s now knowing now how good a match they would have been with the C2C._

 

Well, since there is a May 1 holiday, I figure they're closed. However, I emailed them and they said they'd ship it out after the May 1 holiday on the 4th. Holy crap, that's fast! Even with shipping times, that'll get to me in 2 weeks or less. I was expecting a month+, but I guess my estimate was off.


----------



## theBigD

Yeah, he's not as backed up on the C2C as he was with the compass. It only took 3 weeks for me to get mine and that was in the middle of that mass ship of 30 compasses he had to get out.


----------



## tim3320070

Has anyone A/B'd the XLR vs RCA inputs yet?


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Has anyone A/B'd the XLR vs RCA inputs yet?_

 

The balanced versions of my VDH Orchid arrived, so I did, briefly. There was a slight improvement from the Reference 1, though that could be the Ref 1 and not the C2C.


----------



## Gradofan2

So... what's the story???

 I saw some posts, somewhere... which indicated the C-2C had a gain of 15db, or something like that... and... that the amp was near max volume with most phones at about 8-9 O'clock on the POT. 

 Is this correct?

 That same post(s) also indicated the gain was adjustable by the user via socketed resistors? Is that correct? 

 If so... how do you (the layman) adjust the gain to a more reasonable level (e.g. 5-10db) to allow the POT to be usable. 

 I also seem to recall the suggestion that the mfr planned to update the C-2C to reduce the gain.

 If the C-2C has been modified with an updated version with reduced gain... how do you identify the more current version... and... what is its gain?

 Thanks...


----------



## zerodeefex

Mine shipped!

 USA RaviC2CDHL

 Can't wait for it. I'm all giddy inside!


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Grado why don't you email the man himself (Kingwa)...you'll get the info you seek far quicker that way. He loves talking shop when he has the time to do so.

audio-gd@126.com......

 Peete.


----------



## squall343

Just got my K702..going to try with C2C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT : strange seem like K702 need more juice compared to my hd650, DT990 and DT770

 seem to go up to 9 o clock in term of volume


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 If the C-2C has been modified with an updated version with reduced gain... how do you identify the more current version... and... what is its gain?

 Thanks..._

 

all the newest c2c as of 26th april have been retune to a new reduced gain

 Upgrade version
 26th Apr. reduce the gain, XLR input has 8DB, RCA input has 10DB.
ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1


----------



## tim3320070

I must have the older version and want to know if the reduced gain does anything to sound quality. I can't get past 9 o'clock without blowing my eardrums (RS-1i). This isn't a big deal as I can get a low enough level but want to know if it does anything to SQ.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I must have the older version and want to know if the reduced gain does anything to sound quality. I can't get past 9 o'clock without blowing my eardrums (RS-1i). This isn't a big deal as I can get a low enough level but want to know if it does anything to SQ._

 

Turning the volume control changes the gain. What the change means is, one or another of the resistors in the circuit has been changed to one of a higher value, so the sound is quieter.

 I now wish I'd asked for lower gain in mine. Nothing I can't fix if I can be bothered getting out my soldering iron though.


----------



## tim3320070

But lowering the gain would not improve the sound would it?


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Grado why don't you email the man himself (Kingwa)...you'll get the info you seek far quicker that way. He loves talking shop when he has the time to do so.

audio-gd@126.com......

 Peete._

 

I did... and here is what he reported...

*"Audio GD reduced the gain to 8/10db beginning with serial number F10903xxx." * 

 That's 10db with RCA input, and 8db with XLR input. 

 That should help to increase the range of volume on the POT, so the POT isn't so sensitive to volume adjustments. The volume should now vary less as you adjust the POT - "very loud" will likely be more like 12 O'clock, than 9 O'clock - probably about 1/3 less gain / sensitivity. I don't know - does it reduce the gain logarithmically, or arithmetically? Perhaps, it should be a bit lower - ideally?

 It will also likely reduce the noise from the source by reducing the SNR, as the result of the reduced gain. So... theoretically... the amp should have a more silent background.

 And... finally... it could improve the balance between the channels, since POTs often are poorly balanced at low settings (say, 9 O'clock and below).

 Also... BEWARE... the folks at Pacific Valve (the US distributor) report they "know nothing... nothing" about this issue. 

 Just be sure to get a later serial number, if you order one... and make sure the vendor "guarantees" you're getting one with the lower gain (including return shipping cost). 

 For others... hopefully AG will publish the resistors and values to change, if you want to reduce the gain of your amp. I'd "do it in a heartbeat," if I had one.

 I might give this amp a try... if, I can find the "new" version.


----------



## rogue

Mine also shipped a few days ago. Anyone know how long it takes DHL on average to deliver to the US from China?


----------



## theBigD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did... and here is what he reported...

*"Audio GD reduced the gain to 8/10db beginning with serial number F10903xxx." * 

 That's 10db with RCA input, and 8db with XLR input. 

 That should help to increase the range of volume on the POT, so the POT isn't so sensitive to volume adjustments. The volume should now vary less as you adjust the POT - "very loud" will likely be more like 12 O'clock, than 9 O'clock - probably about 1/3 less gain / sensitivity. 

 It will also likely reduce the noise from the source by reducing the SNR, as the result of the reduced gain. So... theoretically... the amp should have a more silent background.

 And... finally... it could improve the balance between the channels, since POTs often are poorly balanced at low settings (say, 9 O'clock and below).

 Also... BEWARE... the folks at Pacific Valve (the US distributor) report they "know nothing... nothing" about this issue. 

 Just be sure to get a later serial number, if you order one... and make sure the vendor "guarantees" you're getting one with the lower gain (including return shipping cost). 

 For others... hopefully AG will publish the resistors and values to change, if you want to reduce the gain of your amp. I'd "do it in a heartbeat," if I had one.

 I might give this amp a try... if, I can find the "new" version._

 

Who was this you emailed for pm'd? doesnt sound like kingwa.

 edit: i see you only quoted first line.


----------



## squall343

i think u should order directly with audio gd instead of going through pacific valve


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Who was this you emailed for pm'd? doesnt sound like kingwa.

 edit: i see you only quoted first line._

 

It was the general AG email address: audio-gd@126.com

 "Cherry" responded with the information highlighted.

 But... I'm amazed that you could tell the difference between "Cherry's" response and "Kingwa's" response by only the highlighted information! 

 Truly amazing!

 EDIT / UPDATE: Oh... I see from your edit... you didn't notice my quotes were limited to just the serial number and the gain.

 The rest is just the typical effects of reducing the gain in an amp (i.e. greater range / less sensitive volume adjustment, reduced perceived noise from source, improved balance permitted by higher POT settings, etc.).


----------



## Vic Trola

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I did... and here is what he reported...

*"Audio GD reduced the gain to 8/10db beginning with serial number F10903xxx." * 

 That's 10db with RCA input, and 8db with XLR input. 

 That should help to increase the range of volume on the POT, so the POT isn't so sensitive to volume adjustments. The volume should now vary less as you adjust the POT - "very loud" will likely be more like 12 O'clock, than 9 O'clock - probably about 1/3 less gain / sensitivity. I don't know - does it reduce the gain logarithmically, or arithmetically? Perhaps, it should be a bit lower - ideally?

 It will also likely reduce the noise from the source by reducing the SNR, as the result of the reduced gain. So... theoretically... the amp should have a more silent background.

 And... finally... it could improve the balance between the channels, since POTs often are poorly balanced at low settings (say, 9 O'clock and below).

 Also... BEWARE... the folks at Pacific Valve (the US distributor) report they "know nothing... nothing" about this issue. 

 Just be sure to get a later serial number, if you order one... and make sure the vendor "guarantees" you're getting one with the lower gain (including return shipping cost). 

 For others... hopefully AG will publish the resistors and values to change, if you want to reduce the gain of your amp. I'd "do it in a heartbeat," if I had one.

 I might give this amp a try... if, I can find the "new" version._

 


 Ah, Um....
 The folks answering the emails yesterday were not aware of this issue and I agree not very responsive. I apologize for this. We are way ahead - our units have serial #s F10903 series G


----------



## theBigD

I just looked at mine and supposedly mine has lowered gain (sn1090304g)! Can't really figure this out becuase I compared with compass. Compass on high gain volume at 9 or 10 comfortable to loud. C2C 7 to 8 comfortable to loud with D7000. So I wonder how mine slipped through?

 Guess Ill have to talk to Kingwa.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vic Trola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah, Um....
 The folks answering the emails yesterday were not aware of this issue and I agree not very responsive. I apologize for this. We are way ahead - our units have serial #s F10903 series G_

 

Great... 

 ... then PV is the place to buy the C-2C for US buyers - local warranty support... and... assurance you'll get the "new version" with lower gain. Or... at least... I would hope that assurance would be provided. That certainly would be a requirement for me... and... I would think, anyone.


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *theBigD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just looked at mine and supposedly mine has lowered gain (sn1090304g)! Can't really figure this out becuase I compared with compass. Compass on high gain volume at 9 or 10 comfortable to loud. C2C 7 to 8 comfortable to loud with D7000. So I wonder how mine slipped through?

 Guess Ill have to talk to Kingwa._

 

Hmmn... "the plot thickens."

 Please let us know "what's up with that?!?"

 It is obviously inconsistent with the info that "Cherry" provided me.

 I'm guessing "Cherry" may have been in error.

 Or... the "g series" does not have the lower gain... or... whatever - its very confusing.

 I would hope... AG... can clear this up - because, this issue "hangs over" the C-2C, until its resolved.

 And... AG... really needs to provide the "how to" to modify the amp to lower the gain... or... even better... provide a free mod service through PV in the US.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmn... "the plot thickens."

 Please let us know "what's up with that?!?"

 It is obviously inconsistent with the info that "Cherry" provided me.

 I'm guessing "Cherry" may have been in error.

 Or... the "g series" does not have the lower gain... or...

 I would hope... AG... can clear this up - this issue "hangs over" the C-2C, until its resolved.

 And... AG... really needs to provide the "how to" to modify the amp to lower the gain... or... even better... provide a free mod service through PV in the US._

 

I'm sure if you ask him, he'll tell you what resisters to change.

 .


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure if you ask him, he'll tell you what resisters to change.

 ._

 

Probably... but... I don't yet have a C-2C, which needs such a mod... and... I hope to avoid one that does.

 I think the best way to resolve this issue is for AG, or PV, to just openly "publish" the issue and its resolution via a fairly simple solution... and... 

 ... to openly "publish" the way to identify which amps are the "high gain" version, and which amps are the new "lower gain" version. 

 And... even better... to release a "new version" with easily adjustable gain from 4-10db.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Since they are made at the time of order (for the most part) and not sitting on shelves (PV maybe has a couple actually in stock...or not) the likelihood of getting an old version is unlikely...at any rate all the C2C's built as of April 26th are the latest rev AFAIK. As always you can email either PV or AGD to confirm before ordering...if you order.

 Tim....lowering the gain won't change the voicing or sound signature of the amp one iota.

 Peete.


----------



## donunus

Just ordered a c2c yesterday. Sick and tired of drooling


----------



## zerodeefex

Mine already left the Hong Kong hub and since it's international express, it should be here either Friday or Monday. Damn that's some fast turnaround considering I ordered it last Friday


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Since they are made at the time of order (for the most part) and not sitting on shelves (PV maybe has a couple actually in stock...or not) the likelihood of getting an old version is unlikely...at any rate all the C2C's built as of April 26th are the latest rev AFAIK. As always you can email either PV or AGD to confirm before ordering...if you order.

 Tim....lowering the gain won't change the voicing or sound signature of the amp one iota.

 Peete._

 

Yes, just wanted to confirm and Kingwa responded the same. And, this is beating a dead horse I am realizing......

 I want to add a new experience with this amp- I recently added a Bel Canto USB 2496 Link (for my future Ref-1 DAC) to my V-DAC to C-2C system. I was supplying a USB direct to the V-DAC but with the Bel Canto in the mix, sound has improved, nothing huge but added detail and soundstage width are audible to me.

 I like your new image!


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, just wanted to confirm and Kingwa responded the same. And, this is beating a dead horse I am realizing......_

 

Actually... you're not "beating a dead horse" - we'll only know, if the gain was reduced when someone who orders the "new version" actually receives it and tests it to verify the POT is now set to 11-12+ O'clock, rather than 8-9 O'clock, to achieve loud volume levels.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually... you're not "beating a dead horse" - we'll only know, if the gain was reduced when someone who orders the "new version" actually receives it and tests it to verify the POT is now set to 11-12+ O'clock, rather than 8-9 O'clock, to achieve loud volume levels._

 

I haven't checked the serial number, but I've had my C-2C for over a week now. I know it was built and shipped as of the 4/26 revision date.

 My lower impedance cans(Grado/32 ohm, Denon/25 ohm) are loud in the 9:30-10:00 range. My "higher" impedance cans(Beyer/250 ohm) are loud in the 11:30-12:00 range. Everything seems fine with this amp, great sq, there's clearly plenty of power, and the pot has a nice sweep range, more than my Darkvoice, it's all good...


----------



## Gradofan2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I haven't checked the serial number, but I've had my C-2C for over a week now. I know it was built and shipped as of the 4/26 revision date.

 My lower impedance cans(Grado/32 ohm, Denon/25 ohm) are loud in the 9:30-10:00 range. My "higher" impedance cans(Beyer/250 ohm) are loud in the 11:30-12:00 range. Everything seems fine with this amp, great sq, there's clearly plenty of power, and the pot has a nice sweep range, more than my Darkvoice, it's all good..._

 

Great... 

 Did you order yours from AG, or another vendor (e.g. Pacific Valve, etc.)?

 Its becoming more tempting.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great... 

 Did you order yours from AG, or another vendor (e.g. Pacific Valve, etc.)?

 Its becoming more tempting._

 

I ordred from Audio-gd...


----------



## tim3320070

Currawong,
 How is the sound with the XLR input now vs. the RCA used before, any improvement?
 Tim


----------



## zerodeefex

Mine just came in, only have extremely low impedance cans on my desk, but I'll be bringing in my hd580s to test this out tomorrow and I'll report back on the gain. Now to find a pair of K70xs so I can be happy at work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





*Edit:* People had questions about hiss with sensitive IEMs, etc. I plugged in my shure e4's and, by playing and pausing, plugging and unplugging my sources, and turning things on and off, I found that there is no audible hiss with the C2C even with the volume dial well past reasonable listening levels. At levels that are unsafe, there is audible hiss with no music playing, but I am comfortable in saying this is at a gain that is WAY to high to be using with IEMs like this. I didn't notice any audible noise at all with no music playing until I got to 11 o'clock on the volume dial. 

 For reference, I find that I have to take the e4's hooked up to the C2C out of my ear before hitting 9 o'clock on the volume knob if music is playing, otherwise it's dangerously loud, so, in my experience with amps, this one is impressively quiet.

*Further edit (still haven't gone home to get my HD580s):* I am unsure if this was discussed, but I am noticing that it still drives my low impedance cans at an audible level even when the volume knob is all the way down. If I move it from there, one ear goes out, then it starts at a normal volume. I'm guessing with higher impedance cans than the e4s and the HD497s at my desk, this isn't a problem 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just an observation. 

 Also, compared to the HP out from my modded Marantz CD5000 or my Denon DVD-2200 > Gilmore Lite, the C-2C with the pair of HD497s I have here right now really sparkles. I just listened to some Enya, Miseducation of Lauryen Hill, Karajan's rendition of Beethoven's 5th, and I'd say you can color me impressed. I've never heard these cans sound so good in the 6+ years I've owned them, it's pretty nuts! The soundstage has really opened up and it feels like a huge veil has been lifted from all the music I'm listening to. I can hear imperfections in some of these recordings that have never been noticeable with these cans before. Who knew this crappy pair of HD497s had it in em?!? I am glad I've always preferred these to pretty much anything else I've owned under $100. More impressions in the coming weeks when I have more time with my HD580s, when I get a pair of K70x to go with this monster, and as it burns in.


----------



## lag0a

With my headphone setup, X-meridian(Digital Output)-> TP Opus DAC -> C2C -> hd600 or er4s, the er4s works best at near the lowest volume I think or else its too loud for your ears as it is low impedance and its next to your ear canal. The C2C volume knob is at its lowest with foobar's volume control at max. With the hd600 I've found out the higher the volume knob on the C2C you turn, the clearer the sound is, but you need to balance it with the loudness so I have the knob at 11:00 and foobar's volume at 20.64, but sounds seem compressed a little like the noise of the recordings are apparent with foobar's volume at 10.00, but gone now at 20.64 which I don't like listening to in the first place whether its mp3 or flac. Earphones can't compare to headphones as headphones to loudspeakers because I think mainly due to the surface area of sounds they produce although I'm liking my headphone setup so far as I'm beginning to hear this movie theater-like monitor sound.


----------



## insyte

@ zerodeefex and lag0a - Congrats on your C-2Cs, Im glad you like them. I also remember testing my er4s with the C-2C the first night I got the amp


----------



## zerodeefex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_@ zerodeefex and lag0a - Congrats on your C-2Cs, Im glad you like them. I also remember testing my er4s with the C-2C the first night I got the amp 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Had some time with my HD600s and the C2C and I'd agree that they are a pretty good pairing.

 Were you able to compare to the single ended beta22 in April?


----------



## dynamics

I just placed an order for this babe too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I am anxiously waiting to receive it. I can't wait to hear it.


----------



## thebathingape

I ordered one too on Friday night 3am after a bottle of wine and a doobie. That is when i usually make my headphone-related purchases. 

 Looking forward to try it!


----------



## donunus

Just got my c2cs
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/jus...0/#post5714711


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *donunus* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just got my c2cs
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/jus...0/#post5714711_

 

Saw that....give it plenty of time...

 Peete.


----------



## Skorpitarius

I have a Compass as of a couple weeks ago and am really savoring/enjoying it via a few different headphones but I want to eventually try the other Audio gd stuff, seems very solid quality gear, so many praising reviews all over Head-Fi and elsewhere ....


----------



## lag0a

I've listened to my headphone system with the C2C from the beginning until now and the major difference between it with burn in is the natural separation of sounds in instruments and voices, and the natural depth and tonal accentuation of all sounds. So it takes about 100-200 hours of burn in to get to that. The HD600 have a way of playing all music slow for some reason even if you upgrade the cable.


----------



## Toby M

I ordered a C-2C this morning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm going to recable my D2000s - is the output socket on the C-2C 1/4"?

 Cheers


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Toby M* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I ordered a C-2C this morning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm going to recable my D2000s - is the output socket on the C-2C 1/4"?

 Cheers_

 

yes


----------



## Toby M

Thanks mate.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skorpitarius* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a Compass as of a couple weeks ago and am really savoring/enjoying it via a few different headphones but I want to eventually try the other Audio gd stuff, seems very solid quality gear, so many praising reviews all over Head-Fi and elsewhere ...._

 

Compass' amp section is good but it's not really that good compared to dedicated headphone amps which is to be expected.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zerodeefex* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Had some time with my HD600s and the C2C and I'd agree that they are a pretty good pairing.

 Were you able to compare to the single ended beta22 in April?_

 

Ah yes, but I wasn't able to use the same source for it. But the Beta22 owner who used to own the Stello DA100 (that was atttached to the C-2C during the meet) said that the C-2C sounded more neutral than his Beta22. He was also wondering why this was so. 

 But from what I recall when the Beta22 was attached to the stello when I auditioned it at his home, I found the beta22 was also very neutral.


----------



## K3cT

Whoa, insyte. I'm interested to hear more about this comparison between the C2C and Beta 22 if you have further insights to share.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ah yes, but I wasn't able to use the same source for it. But the Beta22 owner who used to own the Stello DA100 (that was atttached to the C-2C during the meet) said that the C-2C sounded more neutral than his Beta22. He was also wondering why this was so._

 

Yeah, it's curious, the ß22 has been alternatingly described as close to 'a wire with gain' (implying neutrality) and as 'distinctly warm'. I wonder if there are differences between the builds, or if this just reflects personal taste.

 EDIT: Great photoshoot of the meet, insyte! (I hadn't come across that thread yet.) Makes me feel 'homesick' for the Philippines.


----------



## insyte

I kinda wish I plugged the stello to the Beta22 during the meet, but a lot were listening to the Havana DAC + beta22 setup so I didn't get a chance.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, it's curious, the ß22 has been alternatingly described as close to 'a wire with gain' (implying neutrality) and as 'distinctly warm'. I wonder if there are differences between the builds, or if this just reflects personal taste.

 EDIT: Great photoshoot of the meet, insyte! (I hadn't come across that thread yet.) Makes me feel 'homesick' for the Philippines._

 

The photos were taken by a another forum member 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OT : Are you from the Philippines?

 --------

 Oh I didn't know that some Beta22s were "distinctly warm". I think this is caused by it being a DIY amp, and would therefore have different builders and builds


----------



## K3cT

I think the ß22 being warm-sounding is a popular notion... that's why folks at local mini-meets always joke about getting a decent tube amp instead of wasting money trying to make an SS amp sound like its tube counterpart. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 No idea about the merit of that "joke" but after hearing both tube and SS, it's clear to me that each has its own advantages.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I kinda wish I plugged the stello to the Beta22 during the meet, but a lot were listening to the Havana DAC + beta22 setup so I didn't get a chance.

 The photos were taken by a another forum member 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 OT : Are you from the Philippines?

 --------

 Oh I didn't know that some Beta22s were "distinctly warm". I think this is caused by it being a DIY amp, and would therefore have different builders and builds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The reason why the B22 is Warm/Hot is that it is Biased Full Class A and has High Output.


 Sorry, misunderstood you, I thought you were talking HEAT and not SQ. I've never heard anyone call the B22 warm in SQ?

 .


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insyte* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OT : Are you from the Philippines?_

 

No, not really. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I wandered around there for a couple of months a few years ago and for at least a half year after that I suffered from actual homesickness for the Philippines (weird hu?). Beautiful country, great people!


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Drosera* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, not really. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But I wandered around there for a couple of months a few years ago and for at least a half year after that I suffered from actual homesickness for the Philippines (weird hu?). Beautiful country, great people!_

 

Oh I see 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The reason why the B22 is Warm/Hot is that it is Biased Full Class A and has High Output.


 Sorry, misunderstood you, I thought you were talking HEAT and not SQ. I've never heard anyone call the B22 warm in SQ?

 ._

 

Well I've only heard 1 beta22 and it was neutral sounding for me. As for heat, well actually the casing doesn't heat up too much.


----------



## umbalito

Just got my C-2C!!

 Quick question though, is it safe to stack my DAC right on top of it?

 I was just also wondering, when I place my hand on the top plate, it *almost* feels like there is some sort of current running through it. I'm just not sure though.

 I don't feel it when my hand is stationary, but when I sort of brush my hand across the top, I sort of kind of feel something ?? I don't know if it's simply because of the material or what. Although when I do the same thing to the side plate, I don't feel it. ??

 Any ideas??


----------



## umbalito

^^ Just a quick update - I've had it running for about 30mins or so now, and that "current" feeling has disappeared. So it definitely wasn't the finish of the top plate or anything.

 Anyone else experience that?

 EDIT: Now it's back, weird. Same thing on the front and side plates.


----------



## squall343

have not encounter any current but c2c will run warm

 and stacking equipment should be okay but i dun do that


----------



## Currawong

It's safe to stack it. Mine is sitting below an SACD player and two Stax amps.


----------



## Dat_Dude

I am curious if any of the new C2C owners have also owned or tried out the HeadAmp Gilmore Lite (without DPS)? I am wondering if you feel it is a major improvement and worth an upgrade. I should be able to sell my Gilmore Lite without problems but just wanted some opinions. I am upgrading my cans as well from the SR-225 to the HF-2.

 I appreciate any opinions or suggestions.


----------



## Skorpitarius

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Compass' amp section is good but it's not really that good compared to dedicated headphone amps which is to be expected._

 

Yeah well we'll see, ... I am enjoying the hell out of the Compass now ... and I am experimenting with different power cables and getting really interesting varied results per each cable ... (with the cheapest but thickest guage one sounding the best ...) Going to get my SA-5000 re-cabled also ... that should be interesting ...

 I will get a c2c eventually, I think or even the Phoenix thing ...something to look forward to ......


----------



## iszatso

Received the c2 c today. Coupled with a battery driven v-dac, fed by a macbookpro optical out. Feeding a set of denon d7000's. Well packaged. Quick shipping. 

 I'm not able to compare headphone amps as I've only had one, the x-can v3 w/pinkflyd mods and ps.

 Detail exquisite. Sound stage spacious yet controlled. Had not had my ears thumped like this with the x-can. Consider I have just made an excellent purchase with great value for the dollar, a real joy to my ears. A happy camper here. Would recommend heartily to anyone with good source and dac to feed it. Best 400.00usd spent in awhile. WOW WOW WOW...as I listen while typing this.

 At 9:00 position, enough for my ears, by ten o'clock, there is some pain.

 Any improvement with burn-in is just icing and gravy at this point. Non-fatiguing, a real pleasurable listen. Thanks to all who guided me down this path.


----------



## Funky-kun

With all these positive comments I am really tempted to take the plunge with this amp. My HD650 need more power. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oneq question to the ones in the US with this amp - did you have any trouble with Customs? Additional payments or something?


----------



## iszatso

here in USA, No trouble with customs. The box appeared unopened from the time it left china. Payment made, item received. no hidden costs.


----------



## thebathingape

Mine just blasted through customs this morning in 10 minutes according to the EMS site. Hope i am getting it today!
 Took a week from ordering for it to reach Norway. EMS has worked great for me every time.


----------



## punk_guy182

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skorpitarius* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah well we'll see, ... I am enjoying the hell out of the Compass now ... and I am experimenting with different power cables and getting really interesting varied results per each cable ... (with the cheapest but thickest guage one sounding the best ...) Going to get my SA-5000 re-cabled also ... that should be interesting ...

 I will get a c2c eventually, I think or even the Phoenix thing ...something to look forward to ......_

 

What power cable is that and how much did it cost?


----------



## squall343

I am loving the dac19mk3 - c2c - k702 now


----------



## iszatso

which dac19mk3 did you order to pair with the c2c. The mode 1 or mode 2. I'm a bit confused over the difference. I mainly play flacs. Currently my v-dac does 24/96. Is ther an appreciable sound difference between the two modes?


----------



## Currawong

Kingwa offers both because while it's easy to make it 24/96 capable, he felt that it didn't sound as good as the other module, so he offers a choice. 24/96 capability is only useful if you have 24/96 files. CD rips are only 16/44.1. If you don't, then it's unnecessary.


----------



## iszatso

Currawong said...How about this: Audio-gd DAC19MK3 + C2C? That's less than $1k. The DAC is un-coloured and will be less digital sounding than the Lavry and Benchmark (I owned the Lavry DA-10, have heard the DAC 1) and the C2C drove my Denons very well with tight bass and all the detail of whatever DAC was plugged in.
 [size=xx-small]

 Currawong,

 You started all this. Much to my listening enjoyment, with your innocent reply to another question in another forum. Being lighter of 400.00usd, but enjoying ever so much the c2c, now ready to jump on the dac19mk3, but waiting for affirmation that the combo is not to clinical or sterile. Looking for a bit of musicality in the delivery, not sure I want a wire with a gain. Convince me to spend another 550.usd
 to make musical headphone nirvana with my denond7000's
[/size]


----------



## Skorpitarius

I have been experimenting with using my Sony dvd player as a transport connected to my Compass' coax input with a nice sold silver inter-connect cable and was pretty astonished at the SQ vs. the USB cable ( I think ) ... Making me want to get a C2C even moreso now ...


----------



## haloxt

It's much better than usb-audio and an ASIO media player? Hmm, I better get a cd-player then lol. Btw I saw in your sig about shopping for a usb cable, most people don't think usb cables affect the sound that much.


----------



## Skorpitarius

Yeah, Kimber Cable claims they have fatter guage wires in their USB cables ... i'm curious to try one ...and the Cryoparts cable too ....


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iszatso* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_which dac19mk3 did you order to pair with the c2c. The mode 1 or mode 2. I'm a bit confused over the difference. I mainly play flacs. Currently my v-dac does 24/96. Is ther an appreciable sound difference between the two modes?_

 

not too sure about the comparison between the two modes

 but i am using the mode A since i do not have 24/96 music files and according to kingwa, Mode A sound better than mode B on normal music file

 But i do know that there are some which brought both the modes when they order..so we will be expecting some comparison soon


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's much better than usb-audio and an ASIO media player? Hmm, I better get a cd-player then lol. Btw I saw in your sig about shopping for a usb cable, most people don't think usb cables affect the sound that much._

 

usb-audio driver definitely is the most improvement i seen with little money spent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not too sure about usb cable but kimber is not cheap but there are those who claim it offer some sort of audio quality improvement


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_usb-audio driver definitely is the most improvement i seen with little money spent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I like that driver too, so far it has been rock-solid...


----------



## Currawong

I've lost track of the threads, but in the DAC19 thread someone has one with the C2C.


----------



## Drosera

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skorpitarius* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have been experimenting with using my Sony dvd player as a transport connected to my Compass' coax input with a nice sold silver inter-connect cable and was pretty astonished at the SQ vs. the USB cable ( I think ) ... Making me want to get a C2C even moreso now ..._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's much better than usb-audio and an ASIO media player? Hmm, I better get a cd-player then lol. Btw I saw in your sig about shopping for a usb cable, most people don't think usb cables affect the sound that much._

 

My experience as well. The USB-Audio driver was the only thing that managed to get the quality of the USB output at least near to that of the optical-out of my very very basic Sony cd player. But still the cd player wins. Based on this I would say, if you mostly play cd's anyways (and don't have all your music stored on your computer), just get a cd player with a decent transport mechanism.


----------



## thebathingape

Arggh looks like they upgraded the c-2c right after mine got sent :
ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 Wonder if mine is this version or the older one. Probably arriving in the mail today or monday..


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thebathingape* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Arggh looks like they upgraded the c-2c right after mine got sent :
ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 Wonder if mine is this version or the older one. Probably arriving in the mail today or monday.._

 

one thing good about this coy

 is that they always constant upgrade and improve their stuff

 I think the newer version have lower gain, new faceplate and rca plug?


----------



## thebathingape

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_one thing good about this coy

 is that they always constant upgrade and improve their stuff

 I think the newer version have lower gain and new faceplate? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think the lower gain versions are the ones after 26. apr. The new faceplate/gold plated rca outputs just happened these last few days if im not wrong.


----------



## iszatso

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thebathingape* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Arggh looks like they upgraded the c-2c right after mine got sent :
ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 Wonder if mine is this version or the older one. Probably arriving in the mail today or monday.._

 

Yours was ordered before april 26th? Wow. I just received mine two days ago ordered end of may, i have the upgraded one as everyone who ordered at the start of May forward.


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thebathingape* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think the lower gain versions are the ones after 26. apr. The new faceplate/gold plated rca outputs just happened these last few days if im not wrong._

 

I see.

 Seem like just a routine change to their rca plug

 Because their other new product also using the newer plug


----------



## thebathingape

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iszatso* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yours was ordered before april 26th? Wow. I just received mine two days ago ordered end of may, i have the upgraded one as everyone who ordered at the start of May forward._

 

Nono. I ordered mine a week ago


----------



## russell-w

I ordered mine on 5/25 and it arrived on 6/3.


----------



## K3cT

Is it worth it to get that USB-Audio driver when you're using WASAPI with Vista? The last time I tried it I couldn't tell any difference.


----------



## K3cT

OK, I'm using it at the moment but it's funny now there's no sound with anything other than with Foobar. I couldn't get any sound through my Media Player Classic, all PC games and even via online streaming. Obviously Direct Sound is not working properly here. 

 It seems that the sound is slightly sharper and more detailed compared with WASAPI but I'm not sure whether it's worth it or not with all these strange quirks.


----------



## tim3320070

Those RCA's happened a while ago (mine have them from receiving 2 months ago). The gain change does not affect SQ according to Kingwa, just reduced gain.


----------



## thebathingape

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those RCA's happened a while ago (mine have them from receiving 2 months ago). The gain change does not affect SQ according to Kingwa, just reduced gain._

 

Ok thanks man


----------



## umbalito

Could someone help me out here?

 Could you kind of run your fingers on the top plate of the C2C when it's plugged into power / and compare to when it's not plugged in to power?

 Does it feel any different?

 I'm definitely getting the "current" kind of feel when it's plugged in. And I don't know if there's anything wrong with mine.

 It seems to 'work' fine for me, but quite honestly right now I would describe it as pretty veiled and even compared to my laptop's headphone jack, the C2C sounds pretty "muffled"

 Since I've never heard the C2C before, I don't know if I'm really listening to it's native sound and maybe I just don't like it, or maybe mine is broken because of the current issue.

 Thanks!!


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, I'm using it at the moment but it's funny now there's no sound with anything other than with Foobar. I couldn't get any sound through my Media Player Classic, all PC games and even via online streaming. Obviously Direct Sound is not working properly here. 

 It seems that the sound is slightly sharper and more detailed compared with WASAPI but I'm not sure whether it's worth it or not with all these strange quirks._

 

I can get sound from video, games, youtube etc

 I think u can check out the latest driver version or send the company an email


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *umbalito* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could someone help me out here?

 Could you kind of run your fingers on the top plate of the C2C when it's plugged into power / and compare to when it's not plugged in to power?

 Does it feel any different?

 I'm definitely getting the "current" kind of feel when it's plugged in. And I don't know if there's anything wrong with mine.

 It seems to 'work' fine for me, but quite honestly right now I would describe it as pretty veiled and even compared to my laptop's headphone jack, the C2C sounds pretty "muffled"

 Since I've never heard the C2C before, I don't know if I'm really listening to it's native sound and maybe I just don't like it, or maybe mine is broken because of the current issue.

 Thanks!!_

 

Not for me regarding the "current"

 and not veiled and muffled to me
 i guess u should check with kingwa on that


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not for me regarding the "current"

 and not veiled and muffled to me
 i guess u should check with kingwa on that_

 

Absolutely - my C2C does not do that, and most definitely does not sound thin or veiled.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *umbalito* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could someone help me out here?

 Could you kind of run your fingers on the top plate of the C2C when it's plugged into power / and compare to when it's not plugged in to power?

 Does it feel any different?

 I'm definitely getting the "current" kind of feel when it's plugged in. And I don't know if there's anything wrong with mine.

 It seems to 'work' fine for me, but quite honestly right now I would describe it as pretty veiled and even compared to my laptop's headphone jack, the C2C sounds pretty "muffled"

 Since I've never heard the C2C before, I don't know if I'm really listening to it's native sound and maybe I just don't like it, or maybe mine is broken because of the current issue.

 Thanks!!_

 

No current feel on mine. And mine doesn't sound veiled too.


----------



## Seba

Last weekend I had the opportunity to test different headphones on my set. I have always hated Sennheiser HD600/650 because of their veiled and dull presentation. I plugged in totally stock HD600 and was amazed by the sound. Also the owner of the Senns were amazed by the difference of my amp and his MF X-Can V2.

 Last year when I compared my Grado RS-2 and PS-1 with my Little Dot MKIV SE and Zero DAC, I found the differences very small. Now with my current DAC/amp combo the differences were huge in favor of PS-1!

 I have a feeling that my C2C is now reaching the stage of enough hours for it to sound very good. I didn't find my old RS-2's bad from it anymore.

 So I have come to conclusion that C2C works great for almost any headphones (at least Grado's, Denon's, Sennheiser's Audio Technica's and Sony SA5000).


----------



## squall343

Look like there is a new version of the c2c

 What's new in C-2C (upgrade version):
 1, Apply the 23 steps volume pots, we design the exponential volume characteristic, it has wide control characteristic , so users can easy to adjust the volume .
 2, The 23 steps switch manufacturer, which is products switch for Chinese space shuttle, the QC is very solidity.
 3, The volume pots compose by DALE resistors, compare to C2C(stand version) , S/N rise 6DB, and sound improve a bit detail and neutral.

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 however the new version price is 380 as compared the the 335 for the old


----------



## Drosera

A space-worthy volume pot! It certainly looks impressive.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Kingwa is always looking to improve things...tough to keep up with the guy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Prolific tinkerer....

 Peete.

 PS: This looks like a perfect DIY upgrade to me


----------



## theBigD

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *umbalito* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Could someone help me out here?

 Could you kind of run your fingers on the top plate of the C2C when it's plugged into power / and compare to when it's not plugged in to power?

 Does it feel any different?

 I'm definitely getting the "current" kind of feel when it's plugged in. And I don't know if there's anything wrong with mine.

 It seems to 'work' fine for me, but quite honestly right now I would describe it as pretty veiled and even compared to my laptop's headphone jack, the C2C sounds pretty "muffled"

 Since I've never heard the C2C before, I don't know if I'm really listening to it's native sound and maybe I just don't like it, or maybe mine is broken because of the current issue.

 Thanks!!_

 

When mine is on I can feel a little vibration just barely in the right hand front corner. I always thought it was kinda cool, like you could feel its heart beating! 

 no viel or muffled sound though. and i never worried about it.


----------



## mbd2884

Yeah I think it's pretty much settled. Around the next New Year's I will upgrade to the upgraded C2C and the DAC 19MK3 and that should be the final solution for my headphone setup I think. I just don't feel the need or even want to go balanced, so this should be enough.

 So far the Compass/HD650 combo has made me happy, so will enjoy it for a little while longer. 

 Keep up the reviews and impressions!


----------



## stew1234

Would the vibration actually be from the current? Seems odd.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I wonder if umbalito's outlet is properly grounded ?

 Peete.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stew1234* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Would the vibration actually be from the current? Seems odd._

 

Only sort of - the vibration would have to be from the transformer. I have seen this before from power transformers, but not often.


----------



## umbalito

Well, I asked Kingwa, and here is what he said:

  Quote:


 1, Maybe your wall outlet no earth wire, or the earth wire bad connect.
 You can check if bad connect, be I advice you find a electrician technician to do this.
 2, Reversal the power cable connect to wall outlet. I think the power supply has reversal plase. 
 

I'm not quite sure what he means, since I'm no expert with things like this. I'm currently hooked up to a fairly decent quality surge protector plugged straight into the wall outlet.

 I was thinking of trying out better quality power cords -

 but earlier today I was messing around with my set-up, and I noticed that I actually could feel that "vibration" even when the amp was not plugged in to power at all..???

 So I unplugged my DAC (Keces DA-151) (which is currently plugged into the C2-C via RCA - from my USB port and the vibration/current thingie completely stopped. Plugged it back in, and it started again. So it seems to actually be coming from the USB port.

 Currently: USB>Keces DA-151 DAC>RCA>C2-C.

 I'll try to get another USB cable tomorrow and try it out again. Unfortunately I have no other set-up available right now. Not even a CD player,haha.

 Although it might be worthwhile to note that with my previous DAC+Amp, I was getting a crackling sound from my USB port as well - when my power options on Windows were set to low, the crackle disappeared - but reappeared when I selected the high power options.

 Thanks


----------



## squall343

From your description seem like ur da151 is the source of the problem?


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *umbalito* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, I asked Kingwa, and here is what he said:



 I'm not quite sure what he means, since I'm no expert with things like this. I'm currently hooked up to a fairly decent quality surge protector plugged straight into the wall outlet.

 I was thinking of trying out better quality power cords -

 but earlier today I was messing around with my set-up, and I noticed that I actually could feel that "vibration" even when the amp was not plugged in to power at all..???

 So I unplugged my DAC (Keces DA-151) (which is currently plugged into the C2-C via RCA - from my USB port and the vibration/current thingie completely stopped. Plugged it back in, and it started again. So it seems to actually be coming from the USB port.

 Currently: USB>Keces DA-151 DAC>RCA>C2-C.

 I'll try to get another USB cable tomorrow and try it out again. Unfortunately I have no other set-up available right now. Not even a CD player,haha.

 Although it might be worthwhile to note that with my previous DAC+Amp, I was getting a crackling sound from my USB port as well - when my power options on Windows were set to low, the crackle disappeared - but reappeared when I selected the high power options.

 Thanks_

 

Cords should not be at fault, with computers, most of the problem could be originating from the power supply of the computer.

 If you have a notebook type computer, try unplugging your charger from the wall, and try again.

 If you have a desktop computer, check if there's reactive load on the same power circuit (florescent lighting, A/C, fridge, fan, or even washing machines and other stuff) and try not to use the same power circuit. If it still doesn't help, it could be coming from your desktop's power supply, I myself had that a few years ago, and after switching to a better power supply, the background noise dropped significantly.


 Thanks

 David


----------



## glitch39

I think umbalito is talking about static on his amp.

 umbalito - try running audio out from your PC directly to the amp and see if the static goes away. if it does, then you know it's coming from the DAC. otherwise, it could coming from the PC's chassis (or PSU, not doing filtering properly)


----------



## Maniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think umbalito is talking about static on his amp.

 umbalito - try running audio out from your PC directly to the amp and see if the static goes away. if it does, then you know it's coming from the DAC. otherwise, it could coming from the PC's chassis (or PSU, not doing filtering properly)_

 

I was referring to the part that he mentioned that unplugging the USB cable stopped the noise. Tho I guess we agree on that some computer PSU can create vast amount of noise and interference due to the switching nature of the power circuit and not enough attention was put into combating the noise of the switching operation.


----------



## dynamics

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Look like there is a new version of the c2c

 What's new in C-2C (upgrade version):
 1, Apply the 23 steps volume pots, we design the exponential volume characteristic, it has wide control characteristic , so users can easy to adjust the volume .
 2, The 23 steps switch manufacturer, which is products switch for Chinese space shuttle, the QC is very solidity.
 3, The volume pots compose by DALE resistors, compare to C2C(stand version) , S/N rise 6DB, and sound improve a bit detail and neutral.

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 however the new version price is 380 as compared the the 335 for the old_

 

I wonder if the SQ improvements in the upgraded version are worthy over the C2C standard version. I received mine already on 10th of this month. I wish I would have waited a little longer to order the upgraded version 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I am very happy with the performance of the C2C. It synergies really well with my 702s. It brought them to life. They just sing with C2C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Currawong

The volume control I imagine is fairly easily upgradeable.


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The volume control I imagine is fairly easily upgradeable._

 

I'm very happy with the standard C-2C, it's a great/totally solid amp, no doubt about it. Curiosity got the best of me though, I'm going to do a DIY upgrade with Kingwa's new pot. I'm certainly no expert, so I've got my fingers crossed that it all goes well, LOL...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LaidBack* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm very happy with the standard C-2C, it's a great/totally solid amp, no doubt about it. Curiosity got the best of me though, I'm going to do a DIY upgrade with Kingwa's new pot. I'm certainly no expert, so I've got my fingers crossed that it all goes well, LOL..._

 

I've also ordered the new pot among some other things. I can help you out should you need any.

 Maybe I'll make up a short "how to" with pics and post it here.

 Peete.


----------



## Mingo

Once again we can see how people want to help each other - in this case Pricklely Peete - this is really great!!!


----------



## iszatso

Having the standard c-2c, would be interested in the upgraded pot. What did Kingwa charge you for the pot? And If you ordered extra pots, i'd be happy to buy one from you. also interested after the pot is installed, what changes in the sound signature. (Really a nice sound ss amp as it is...but..)


----------



## squall343

I am no expert on circuit

 but looking at the two version of the c2c

 the old one
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/pre/c2/C2C5.jpg

 the new one
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/pre/c2/C2V21.jpg

 there seem to be some differences in the boards those tiny colourful stuff?


----------



## dynamics

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've also ordered the new pot among some other things. I can help you out should you need any.

 Maybe I'll make up a short "how to" with pics and post it here.

 Peete._

 

That would be awesome! This would be my very first DIY project in audio. I'm a pretty good learner. I'm not afraid to give it a try. Hopefully, everything will go smoothly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Happy to help you guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The 23 step (DACT clone ?) is 30US.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am no expert on circuit

 but looking at the two version of the c2c

 the old one
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/pre/c2/C2C5.jpg

 the new one
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/pre/c2/C2V21.jpg

 there seem to be some differences in the boards those tiny colourful stuff? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Good eye, there are some Resister and Cap changes it looks like.

 .


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am no expert on circuit

 but looking at the two version of the c2c

 the old one
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/pre/c2/C2C5.jpg

 the new one
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/pre/c2/C2V21.jpg

 there seem to be some differences in the boards those tiny colourful stuff? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Whatever different batch of resistors and capacitors he used have different colours. When I asked about this once, Kingwa said there was no difference (unless for SQ improvements he's changed the grade of capacitors used).


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Whatever different batch of resistors and capacitors he used have different colours. When I asked about this once, Kingwa said there was no difference (unless for SQ improvements he's changed the grade of capacitors used)._

 

Might be whatever he get's by the case that week.

 .


----------



## LaidBack

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've also ordered the new pot among some other things. I can help you out should you need any.

 Maybe I'll make up a short "how to" with pics and post it here.

 Peete._

 

That would be great, thanks a lot!


----------



## Kees

Quote:


 ---Quote (Originally by Pricklely Peete)---
 I've also ordered the new pot among some other things. I can help you out should you need any.

 Maybe I'll make up a short "how to" with pics and post it here.

 Peete.
 ---End Quote---

 That would be great, thanks a lot! 
 

I thought that was illegal in most parts of the world


----------



## iszatso

But all this is used for "medicinal purposes only.." should be okay.


----------



## Kees

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iszatso* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But all this is used for "medicinal purposes only.." should be okay._

 

Ah, good.


----------



## glitch39

proud owner of a C-2C now. My source is a zhaolu zapfilter II with RCA and true balanced outs.

 quick testing confirmed that XLR input is better (at least in my setup). With XLR, the soundstage is a tad bit larger than using RCA, while at the same time maintaining the dynamics of the RCA connection.


----------



## shampoosuicide

Thought you guys might like to know:


*C2C output impedance is 2 ohms.
 Output is
 25 ohm: 560MW
 62 ohm: 1350MW
 100 ohm: 1200MW
 300 ohm: 400MW
 600 ohm: 200MW
 Kingwa*


----------



## iszatso

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_proud owner of a C-2C now. My source is a zhaolu zapfilter II with RCA and true balanced outs.

 quick testing confirmed that XLR input is better (at least in my setup). With XLR, the soundstage is a tad bit larger than using RCA, while at the same time maintaining the dynamics of the RCA connection._

 

Wondering if anyone is running rca out of the dac 19 with a rca/xlr cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




into the c-2c and if it would make any sound difference? TIA.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Kees* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I thought that was illegal in most parts of the world 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## iszatso

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iszatso* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wondering if anyone is running rca out of the dac 19 with a rca/xlr cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




into the c-2c and if it would make any sound difference? TIA._

 

From Kingwa reference the above. For some it musta been obvious, for me, with a perpetual learning curve found this out...

 Dear Patrick,
 The BNC is the coaxial plugs, not analogy plugs.
 DAC19MK3 feed to C2C only can use RCA->RCA signal cable.
 Kingwa


----------



## glitch39

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *iszatso* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wondering if anyone is running rca out of the dac 19 with a rca/xlr cable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




into the c-2c and if it would make any sound difference? TIA._

 

nope. b/c you're still coming out SE from the DAC. my DAC is fully balanced which I fed to the C-2C's XLR inputs


----------



## Seba

Nice to see another user having Zapfiltered Zhaolu feeding the C2C (although you have the Cirrus chip, mine is the AD)...

 I emailed Kingwa yesterday about the genuine Neutrik jack and stepped attenuator for my "prototype" C2C. I opened the case and compared the insides to the recent black version and I seem to have a double front panel so the STEPS probably won't fit because the heatsink is very near to the front panel...

 I then went to local electronics shop and bought Neutrik NJ3FP6C for my C2C. It wasn't a big deal to change the "pirate-Neutrik" to a genuine one. Now the jack is as tight as it was in my LD MKIV SE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh, and the silver jack fits nicely in to the silver front plate.


----------



## Dat_Dude

I am curious if anyone that owns a C2C has also owned or heard the Gilmore Lite? I currently own the GL but am considering the C2C if it is much of an upgrade.


----------



## Skylab

It has been quite a while since I had the GLite for review, but based on that, I would say the C-2-C is an upgrade, yes.


----------



## gevorg

Kingwa said that the "Compass HP amp has 50-60% of C2C upgrade version, if the source is enough good", so based on what he said previously that Compass is 80% of the C2C standard version, the new volume pot for C2C improves it by about 33%. Pretty nice jump!. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Any C2C user planning to upgrade their volume pot? I wonder how much it really improves the C2C.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dat_Dude* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am curious if anyone that owns a C2C has also owned or heard the Gilmore Lite? I currently own the GL but am considering the C2C if it is much of an upgrade._

 

If you go Compass -> Gilmore Light, do you notice much of an improvement? With the C2C, its better ability to drive my HD-600's resulted in a wider soundstage and clearer image of the musicians.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Kingwa said that the "Compass HP amp has 50-60% of C2C upgrade version, if the source is enough good", so based on what he said previously that Compass is 80% of the C2C standard version, the new volume pot for C2C improves it by about 33%. Pretty nice jump!. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Any C2C user planning to upgrade their volume pot? I wonder how much it really improves the C2C._

 

I am...I have the part en route as we speak.

 Peete.


----------



## iszatso

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am...I have the part en route as we speak.

 Peete._

 

Ditto for the volume pot, with the included glue...


----------



## gevorg

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am...I have the part en route as we speak.

 Peete._

 

Cool! Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## twylight

I just picked one of these up - my current stable of headphone amps is going to the for sale forum this weekend. no contest at all. I am just going to run with one major rig.

 At the end of the day Tube/opamps/tube preamps turned out to just be annoying and expensive. I really like my MHDT DAC, but im done with my current set of <$500 amps and the C2C wins big time.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

The pot arrived today among other things...I have to get some clarification on the L/R I/O + gnd tabs before I begin with the transplant.

 Peete.


----------



## iszatso

Any update on the pot installation?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Not yet..the wife took the camera for the week but I should have it back Sat evening. I also have the tabs worked out so Sunday I will begin with transplant and take pics along the way....stay tuned. I should have it ready to post by following Monday or Tuesday of next week if everything goes smoothly (which it will I'm thinking).

 Peete.


----------



## iszatso

Thanks for the update Peete. The c-2c continues to shine.


----------



## koven

is the c-2c the best bang for buck in the price range?


----------



## squall343

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is the c-2c the best bang for buck in the price range?_

 

skylab have a pretty comprehensive review done a few months back

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/rev...lifier-417975/


----------



## tim3320070

Any word on the new volume thingy? Would it (could it) provide any SQ improvement?


----------



## anadin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *koven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is the c-2c the best bang for buck in the price range?_

 


 The Little Dot MK VII is balanced and must surely be the best bang for buck amp.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

I'm working on the stepped pot upgrade as we speak but I've run into some snags that need answers....in the meantime I will improvise (a little bit while waiting for feedback).

 EDIT: This upgrade is not an easy one by any means so if you don't have the skills, proper tools and the patience I'd suggest letting Kingwa handle it. I will post the how to when I've got it all "right" and running properly. How long that might take depends on the answers I get. The time difference and language barrier is making things a little difficult, (my fault for being a bit thick in the noggin I'll bet). Anyway I'll get it sorted out.

 EDIT Update: Ok I've got it all sorted out up and running properly now...just need to snap some new photos and button everything back up. I'll get the "how to" posted in the next 36 to 48 hours.

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You should hear what the stepped attenuator upgrade does for it. I'm totally impressed by the results. The ALPS RK27 it replaced is holding the C-2C back.

 Peete._

 

Care to elaborate?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Sure Tim,

 It seems to lift a large amount of haze out of the way. The Alps reduces resolution, blunts impact/transients, reduces clarity from top to bottom. The stepped pot allows through small scale detailing and ambient cues are easily heard along with associated decay trails etc...all reproduced with utmost clarity. I'll keep spinning some discs to see what else I can nail down.

 It really is a worth while upgrade. I'll be posting the "how to" in a day or so once I get the pics ready and the text written. I'll need a few more days of listening to get a further and hopefully more complete picture on the improvements. One thing is certain from the first note after you fire the amp back up you notice an improvement immediately...it's not at all subtle.

 Peete.


----------



## Seba

Did you Peete have the "prototype" version in silver with rocker switches or do you have the "retail" version in black with push buttons?

 If you do have the old version and managed to install the STEPS in your C2C, then I'm very interested because I did consider ordering the STEPS but possible difficulties in installing were holding me back.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Sorry Seba...it's the newer version. Post a pic of yours with the lid off and I'll eyeball it for you...could you give me a clearance measurement from the faceplate to the nearest component on the pcb that might get in the way ? I'll take my cover back off and take a measurement for you so you have an idea if it can fit or not.

 Peete.

 EDIT: I sent an email off to Kingwa asking him if this can be done Seba and also asked for the clearance in mm's needed for such a prospect. I don't think my measurement will help you since the pcb/faceplate location is slightly different...although I can give you a faceplate to back of pot measurement. I'll post it ASAP...

 *48 mm plus an additional 5 for room from the heat sinks. The distance from the back of the pot to the v reg heat sinks is 12 mm. * From the back edge of the faceplate on the latest version chassis.

 Here's a pic... 



 Hope that helps you out a little bit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'll post Kingwa's reply when I get it.

 EDIT 2 : Kingwa's reply was difficult to decipher. I don't think he understood what I was asking him. Anyway if you can give the clearance measurement from your face plate back to the heat sinks I'll be able to tell you if the new pot will fit in the hand made chassis. A pic from the top down would also be helpful (with the chassis lid removed). That is if you want to do such a thing.


----------



## tim3320070

Well, that's impressive. I am getting the Phoenix, otherwise I would be all over this upgrade. I thought it would only be a new volume pot.


----------



## tim3320070

And those are some of the more disturbing pictures I've seen in a while (in a good way)....


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, that's impressive. I am getting the Phoenix, otherwise I would be all over this upgrade. I thought it would only be a new volume pot._

 

Not sure I follow you...you get a nice silver knob with that pot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And those are some of the more disturbing pictures I've seen in a while (in a good way)...._

 

Which ones ? 






 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Um, the road kill collection...


----------



## shampoosuicide

Peete,

 What volume are you listening at? I just got my upgraded C-2C, and am listening at around 12 with modern recordings and around 3 with older, non-compressed recordings.

 This worries me, because with my Darkvoice 332 and even Zero, I rarely went past 10 o'clock.


----------



## Currawong

shampoosuicide: The gain was dropped a month or two ago, as it was too high for many headphones. However, if you're getting to 3 o'clock on the volume, then I can't help wondering if your source is not putting out a strong enough signal. Is it the Zero in your sig?

 Seba: I have the original version with the old case, but I've lent it to a friend. I'll probably get it back soonish, and then I'll have a look.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Peete,

 What volume are you listening at? I just got my upgraded C-2C, and am listening at around 12 with modern recordings and around 3 with older, non-compressed recordings.

 This worries me, because with my Darkvoice 332 and even Zero, I rarely went past 10 o'clock._

 

It's much higher than with the old Alps but it's an illusion. I made a slight mistake installing the new silver knob to the STEPs pot and didn't locate the indicator low enough. I started it at what I thought would be a correct spot (7 o'clock) but when I turned the vol pot to max it goes all the way to the 6 o'clock position so almost a full rotation around. The knob is very hard to get off (and on) so I won't bother relocating it for what boils down to being a trivial niggle. I still think Vol starting at 7 looks right from a conventional stand point. (IMO at least). What is your starting point out of curiosity ?

 I now use the volume on average using that scale not much different in level than the old one (in actual sound pressure levels)...it just looks like your turning the volume higher than before. If I had to guess the new 9 o'clock is now 11:00 or 11:30 on the dial. Works out to 8 steps for my comfortable loudest level.

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Here's the link to the Stepped pot DIY upgrade "How To" guide you guys wanted done.....

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/ste...1/#post5846722

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Nice!


----------



## hanius

Congratulations!


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_shampoosuicide: The gain was dropped a month or two ago, as it was too high for many headphones. However, if you're getting to 3 o'clock on the volume, then I can't help wondering if your source is not putting out a strong enough signal. Is it the Zero in your sig?_

 

Curra, that's right, my source is the Zero DAC. But like I pointed out above, I listened around 9-10 o'clock with my Darkvoice 332 and even with the Zero amp, so I'm a little confused.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's much higher than with the old Alps but it's an illusion. I made a slight mistake installing the new silver knob to the STEPs pot and didn't locate the indicator low enough. I started it at what I thought would be a correct spot (7 o'clock) but when I turned the vol pot to max it goes all the way to the 6 o'clock position so almost a full rotation around. The knob is very hard to get off (and on) so I won't bother relocating it for what boils down to being a trivial niggle. I still think Vol starting at 7 looks right from a conventional stand point. (IMO at least). What is your starting point out of curiosity ?

 I now use the volume on average using that scale not much different in level than the old one (in actual sound pressure levels)...it just looks like your turning the volume higher than before. If I had to guess the new 9 o'clock is now 11:00 or 11:30 on the dial. Works out to 8 steps for my comfortable loudest level.

 Peete._

 

Peete, your positioning of the knob is right. Mine starts at 7 o'clock and ends at 6 o'clock as well.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Curra, that's right, my source is the Zero DAC.



 Peete, your positioning of the knob is right. Mine starts at 7 o'clock and ends at 6 o'clock as well._

 

The Zero outputs a standard 2V from it's line level output so that shouldn't make all that much difference from another DAC spec'd (most output 2V in SE'd mode) the same.

 How many stops do you set yours at for comfortable levels ? For me it's anywhere from 5-7 with 8 being the max (most of the time given the gain levels of the source files/discs) on my 2nd gen HD650's.

 Peete.


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Zero outputs a standard 2V from it's line level output so that shouldn't make all that much difference from another DAC spec'd (most output 2V in SE'd mode) the same.

 How many stops do you set yours at for comfortable levels ? For me it's anywhere from 5-7 with 8 being the max (most of the time given the gain levels of the source files/discs) on my 2nd gen HD650's.

 Peete._

 

Peete, it really depends. I uploaded a few tracks to give a better idea of my listening volume:

The Beatles - While My Guitar Gently Weeps 
 8 steps (11 o'clock) for normal volume, 9 steps (11.30) for loudest comfortable volume.
The Jimi Hendrix Experience - If 6 Was 9
 10 steps (12 o'clock) for normal volume, 11 steps (12.30) for loudest comfortable volume.
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here
 13 steps (2 o'clock) for normal volume, 14 steps (2.30) for loudest comfortable volume.

 My initial impression of the C-2C has been a mixed bag, so I don't want to speak too soon. However, my impressions at the moment really correspond with donunus'. The sound is closed in, recessed and limp. I have to turn the volume up quite high to get some energy in the sound, which makes listening fatiguing. Did anyone else experience this? Is this going to change with burn in, and if so, roughly how many hours?


----------



## twylight

I find the C2C to be miles ahead of similar priced competition and I am in the process of selling it all off (besides the C2C)

 I have also decided to go all in on DACs having just ordered a Havanah from MHDT. (Anyone need a Paradisea+?)

 Different music, different cans, different DACs - but I think the C2C is wonderful, great value, and easily replaced 4-5 <500 amps. Easily. As in the were crap in comparison (2 littledots, 1 headdirect, some dac level amping, direct CDP, 4 AVRs compared)


----------



## haloxt

shampoosuicide, I don't have a firm grasp of the burn-in process especially since I keep switching different gear (euphemism for blowing money) during burn-in, but I'd say give it 500 hours before deciding how good the C-2C is. Right now I'm at like ~300 total on my current dac and amp and it's still a real rollercoaster, right now I am wondering where the treble went. But it's sounding much different (and in some ways much better) than I have ever imagined it could just from being used.

 In case someone argues I'm rationalizing or just getting psychologically used to my gear, maybe that is true, but I say it can't hurt to just leave the C-2C on until 500 hours to see if it becomes more to your liking, if you don't want to suffer from "psychologically getting used to it" you don't have to listen to it while it is burning in.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Peete, it really depends. I uploaded a few tracks to give a better idea of my listening volume:

The Beatles - While My Guitar Gently Weeps 
 8 steps (11 o'clock) for normal volume, 9 steps (11.30) for loudest comfortable volume.
The Jimi Hendrix Experience - If 6 Was 9
 10 steps (12 o'clock) for normal volume, 11 steps (12.30) for loudest comfortable volume.
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here
 13 steps (2 o'clock) for normal volume, 14 steps (2.30) for loudest comfortable volume.

 My initial impression of the C-2C has been a mixed bag, so I don't want to speak too soon. However, my impressions at the moment really correspond with donunus'. The sound is closed in, recessed and limp. I have to turn the volume up quite high to get some energy in the sound, which makes listening fatiguing. Did anyone else experience this? Is this going to change with burn in, and if so, roughly how many hours?_

 

Is there any way you can try it with another source ? My C-2C doesn't sound anything like what yours does by your description. I agree general volume settings can be all over the place (because of the tracks "gain").

 Haloxt has a point as well.....500 + hours (despite what the naysayers expunge about burn in) is really the point at which the C-2C comes into it's own. I still think something is wrong with your source though......try a standalone CDP if you can, to compare.

 Peete.


----------



## shampoosuicide

I can't explain why, but after trying my C-2C with two other CD players and reconnecting it to the Zero, the sound became far more open. The difference is night and day.

 I tried the C-2C with a Toshiba SD 2550 and Philips DVD729K DVD player, as the only dedicated CD player I had wouldn't work. With both players, the volume level on the C-2C was the same with the Zero. There was slightly more low-end with the Toshiba player, although the presentation was still very closed in with a small sound stage. It became noticeably more open with the Philips player, then when I connected it back to my Zero, the closed-in, pressurized effect I experienced previously was gone.

 Needless to say, I'm happy and I'm going to let it burn in a while more


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Odd....chalk it up to burn in shenanigans ? Glad it's opened up and is heading in the right direction shammer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## MadMan007

shampoo - I don't know how long you played it on those other CDPs. This isn't expererience with the C2C but with my Compass some of the sonic changes that are very noticable can happen fast. In under 10 hours (not sure because I let it sit and burn in during that time) around the 150 hour mark it went from hollow recessed mids and lacking bass to full and rich sound. No psychological effect since I wasn't listening during the time just trying it out a few times a day.


----------



## Ricey20

Does anyone know if the C2C would hiss with a 56ohm/124db sensitivity IEM? I'm looking for a good home desktop amp to use with my IEMs since my tube amp hisses something fierce with my ES3X.


----------



## twylight

um3x doesnt hiss...but i can only put the volume on like 5 percent or my ears would explode...


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Yeah the C-2C is a very powerful amp so please be careful and make sure the volume is all the way down to minimum before plugging in any highly efficient IEM/headphone/ear buds. 

 Peete.


----------



## Currawong

My C2C was built before the gain was lowered, but I lowered it myself by changing the resistors with Kingwa's help. I've just plugged in a pair of UM3X's and there is no more hiss with them than with, say, the Denons or other low impedance headphones I've owned.


----------



## glitch39

I'm still amazed by how flexible the C2C is. Senns, Denons, DX1000 ..... they all shine nicely with it. If I was not trying to fund for the Phoenix, I'd be keeping it for a long time


----------



## pekingduck

Anybody knows if the C-2C is susceptible to RF/wireless interference? 

 I was originally considering the Little Dot MKIII but it's not wireless friendly so I am looking elsewhere now..

 (My setup: Macbook -> Airport Express -> DAC -> Amp)


----------



## glitch39

My C2C is not susceptible to RF interference at all. Sits next to an 802.11n router on high setting.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *glitch39* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My C2C is not susceptible to RF interference at all. Sits next to an 802.11n router on high setting._

 

Mine also sits about 10 inches away from a Wifi router with no trouble or interference at all. 

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

Same here- I have a cordless phone, wireless router, desktop computer and my cell phone within 3-4 feet at all times with no noise.


----------



## Funky-kun

I just ordered the Upgrade version of C2C and am very eager to get my hands on this new toy and see what it can do. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The price is reduced from 380$ to 360$ for those that are interested in buying, although it is not mentioned on the site - just mail Kingwa.


----------



## bajaiman

For those of you that got your C2C recently....how long did you have to wait for the tracking number once you paid for it?. 

 I have paid for C2C and got an email within hours from Kingwa confirming that he got the payment and saying that he'd let me know the tracking number once its shipped......that was 6 days ago and I haven't heard anything from him after that...I have sent him an email 2 days ago asking whether hes got any status update for the shipping but haven't heard anything yet.... The Audio-gd consignment page is no help either coz its in chinese....

 Am I just being impatient?... I believe in good communication from any vendor, stating that there might be delays or guesstimate on the shipping date would be nice...specially when you have fully paid for the item......


----------



## haloxt

You're supposed to get a auto-response saying they received your email. If you didn't get the auto-email after you emailed them, email again because they didn't receive it. But it's possible they just overlooked your email and you could ask again. They recently started to keep a few of their products in stock, but if the C-2C you ordered is not in stock it might take between 2-3 weeks.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bajaiman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_For those of you that got your C2C recently....how long did you have to wait for the tracking number once you paid for it?. 

 I have paid for C2C and got an email within hours from Kingwa confirming that he got the payment and saying that he'd let me know the tracking number once its shipped......that was 6 days ago and I haven't heard anything from him after that...I have sent him an email 2 days ago asking whether hes got any status update for the shipping but haven't heard anything yet.... The Audio-gd consignment page is no help either coz its in chinese....

 Am I just being impatient?... I believe in good communication from any vendor, stating that there might be delays or guesstimate on the shipping date would be nice...specially when you have fully paid for the item......_

 

Chill, this ain't Wal-Mart. He builds your gear to order.

 .


----------



## bajaiman

Thanks for all the replies…I didn’t know that he had to build to order. This wasn’t mentioned anywhere on the webiste (or maybe I missed it) and he didn’t say anything about this on the emails prior to ordering either… 

 Guess I’ll just have to wait a tad more then….


----------



## Jodet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Funky-kun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just ordered the Upgrade version of C2C and am very eager to get my hands on this new toy and see what it can do. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The price is reduced from 380$ to 360$ for those that are interested in buying, although it is not mentioned on the site - just mail Kingwa._

 

I just ordered that same amp last night, same price. I was emailing back and forth with Kingwa with questions, he would reply in minutes.


----------



## mugtastic

i ordered one last week - site says they're in stock.


----------



## Nigel79

Most are in stock. He only ships out every Sunday. I got my tracking # Monday. If you order after fri you will have to wait a week for him to ship it out the next sun.


----------



## bajaiman

I got reply from Kingwa saying that his workers have missed my order...so he said that it'd be sent out yesterday (wednesday)... I'm hoping it'll be here on Monday next week...


----------



## mugtastic

so my c-2c just arrived - dhl was very fast - 3 days from china to canada.

 it sounds good out of the box but what is the burn in procedure supposed to be?

 do i just leave it on? 

 i'll post some comparisons with my little dot mkIII after a while.


----------



## DarthSilverice

how much better would

 PC USB -> iBasso D10 DAC -> C2C -> HD600
 be as compared to
 PC USB -> Compass -> HD600?

 Is it worth it for the money? I never heard of compass yet but if the difference is worth it, I'll just grab the D10 + C2C because that way I can use D10 as a portable amp too.

 Any thoughts?


----------



## tim3320070

Several reviews have attested that the C-2C is a considerably better amp than the Compass amp. I don't know how the 2 DAC's compare though.

 As far as burn-in, I was first disappointed with the C-2C as compared to my Cambridge Audio integrated HP out, but after about a week or two of constant burn-in, the sound really improved and surpassed the CA amp in depth, punch, refinement. Leave music playing thru if for a solid week, or just use it and enjoy the progress.


----------



## shampoosuicide

Hello,

 I'm experiencing very loud intermittent clipping ('pop' sound) when turning the volume knob on my upgraded C-2C, both with music playing and without.

 I received my C-2C in mid-July and used it then with my HD650 (300 Ohm impedance, 103dB/mW sensitivity). I can't recall if I had this problem then. However, since pairing the amp with my AD2000 (40 Ohm impedance, 102dB/mW), the problem has become more distinct.

 I emailed Kingwa, and this was his reply:

  Quote:


 Dear Low,
 C2C upgrade version apply the 23 steps switch for volume control, while turn the switch, it will bread the current switch then close the new switch, that time will has a "click" sound from headphone, but I test by Denon D5K and HD650, these "click" sound not loud , I can clear to hear the "click" but can not let me scare.
 If your C2C "click" is loud to scare you, I think maybe either this reason, 1, input signal has high DC offset. 2, or your headphone very high sensitive, 3, or the 23 switch fault, 4, turn the volume too slow at every steps.
 If you have any problems, let me know please.
 Kingwa 
 

1) I currently have my C-2C paired with the Zero DAC. I tried running the C-2C straight out of my iMac, and while the clicking noise was audible enough (not soft; moderate volume), it was not nearly as loud as when paired with the Zero, which could produce a loud 'pop' noise. However, I'd add that the input signal from the Zero is much higher than that of the iMac (ie. I have to turn the volume knob higher when running out of the iMac to get the same volume).
 2) I doubt this is the reason, as the AD2000 has a lower sensitivity than the HD650.
 3) Not sure.
 4) Doubt so. The clipping occurs regardless of the speed at which the volume knob is turned.

 I'm guessing (1) is the most plausible reason, but I thought I'd check if anyone else is experiencing the same issue? Have my headphones been damaged in anyway? They still sound okay to me, for now. If it is my Zero, does it mean it's faulty? What exactly is/causes high DC offset anyway?

 Thanks.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

The Zero has some DC offset at it's outputs. Have you modified your Zero as in did you clip out the 2 x 220pf disc caps at the RCA outputs ? Adding a pair of 220-5560pf silver mica caps in those spots may help with offset.

 I'm just guessing with this line of thought but your tests prove the Zero is the source of the problem so at least you know the C-2C is fine. Mine has similar step noise but no pops. The Compass DAC is feeding mine FWIW. I have tried it with other DACs I have on hand but my FrankenZERO was not among those. It died a long while back (from cumulative mistakes on my part no doubt).

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello,

 I'm experiencing very loud intermittent clipping ('pop' sound) when turning the volume knob on my upgraded C-2C, both with music playing and without.

 I received my C-2C in mid-July and used it then with my HD650 (300 Ohm impedance, 103dB/mW sensitivity). I can't recall if I had this problem then. However, since pairing the amp with my AD2000 (40 Ohm impedance, 102dB/mW), the problem has become more distinct.

 I emailed Kingwa, and this was his reply:



 1) I currently have my C-2C paired with the Zero DAC. I tried running the C-2C straight out of my iMac, and while the clicking noise was audible enough (not soft; moderate volume), it was not nearly as loud as when paired with the Zero, which could produce a loud 'pop' noise. However, I'd add that the input signal from the Zero is much higher than that of the iMac (ie. I have to turn the volume knob higher when running out of the iMac to get the same volume).
 2) I doubt this is the reason, as the AD2000 has a lower sensitivity than the HD650.
 3) Not sure.
 4) Doubt so. The clipping occurs regardless of the speed at which the volume knob is turned.

 I'm guessing (1) is the most plausible reason, but I thought I'd check if anyone else is experiencing the same issue? Have my headphones been damaged in anyway? They still sound okay to me, for now. If it is my Zero, does it mean it's faulty? What exactly is/causes high DC offset anyway?

 Thanks._

 

If you have the upgraded C-2C that means a stepped attenuator and this behaviour kinda goes with that territory I think. People with the upgrade model can chime in.


----------



## insyte

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you have the upgraded C-2C that means a steeped attenuator and this behaviour kinda goes with that territory I think. People with the upgrade model can chime in._

 

I guess this is one advantage of the promo version C-2C, absolute silence when changing the volume


----------



## bryanbhu

After much grumbling, pulling my hair out and lots of help from you fine people, I'm happy to report that I have at last placed an order for C2C + 19MK3 at the promo price. For a slow mover like me, it's quite an achievement. It'll take a couple of weeks before shipping, apparently, so it'll be a while yet. Portables and IEMs aside, this will be my first stationary system.

 As I have had HD600 for a few years, I've been considering getting another cans which are also reputed to go well with this combo (I also have SR80). Any suggestions? Something very different from what I've got, preferably. I listen to all sorts, but a lot of acoustic type (classical, vocal etc) and mainstream (pop, rock etc). Not too picky so long as it has the synergy with my incoming system.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

D5000/7000 or some Grado HF-2. I have the second gen HD650 and love them with my C-2C and Phoenix but I would like to get both of the cans I just mentioned.

 I heard the HF-2 with my C-2C at a local mini meet held a few weeks ago. It's a good to great combination. 

 Congrats on the pairing. I'm fairly certain your going to enjoy them immensely.

 Peete.


----------



## tim3320070

I 2nd the D7000


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After much grumbling, pulling my hair out and lots of help from you fine people, I'm happy to report that I have at last placed an order for C2C + 19MK3 at the promo price. For a slow mover like me, it's quite an achievement. It'll take a couple of weeks before shipping, apparently, so it'll be a while yet. Portables and IEMs aside, this will be my first stationary system.

 As I have had HD600 for a few years, I've been considering getting another cans which are also reputed to go well with this combo (I also have SR80). Any suggestions? Something very different from what I've got, preferably. I listen to all sorts, but a lot of acoustic type (classical, vocal etc) and mainstream (pop, rock etc). Not too picky so long as it has the synergy with my incoming system. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

See how your existing cans go first with the combo I reckon. I found the HD-600s to be quite spot-on with the C2C and they were, for a while, the only headphones I used because of this. I didn't like the treble-peaky Grados I tried with the C2C, but the HF-2s are another matter altogether and are quite fun with it.


----------



## Jodet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After much grumbling, pulling my hair out and lots of help from you fine people, I'm happy to report that I have at last placed an order for C2C + 19MK3 at the promo price. For a slow mover like me, it's quite an achievement. It'll take a couple of weeks before shipping, apparently, so it'll be a while yet. Portables and IEMs aside, this will be my first stationary system.

 As I have had HD600 for a few years, I've been considering getting another cans which are also reputed to go well with this combo (I also have SR80). Any suggestions? Something very different from what I've got, preferably. I listen to all sorts, but a lot of acoustic type (classical, vocal etc) and mainstream (pop, rock etc). Not too picky so long as it has the synergy with my incoming system. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Denon and thte C2c is a very good match. 

 I'll be interested in your comments about the 19MK3. I'm thinking of ordering one myself to go with my C2c.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After much grumbling, pulling my hair out and lots of help from you fine people, I'm happy to report that I have at last placed an order for C2C + 19MK3 at the promo price._

 

What is this promo price? Is it less than the $335 listed on the web site?


----------



## les_garten

I have a question for you guys with the Upgraded C-2C. Do you guys like the feel of that attenuator? I have one I'm looking at for someone and that attenuator requires a pretty high amount of force to switch and feels rough to me during the entire switching process. Basically the antithesis of smooth.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is this promo price? Is it less than the $335 listed on the web site?_

 

See here.

 It's a decent discount.


----------



## dcpoor

Promo

  Quote:


 3 ，Other products get 5% off discounts.
 4 ，Buy more than one unit our different gears, get 10% off discounts. 
 

edit: oh, there's a combo price too? i wonder if the 5/10% promo applies to that as well.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a question for you guys with the Upgraded C-2C. Do you guys like the feel of that attenuator? I have one I'm looking at for someone and that attenuator requires a pretty high amount of force to switch and feels rough to me during the entire switching process. Basically the antithesis of smooth._

 

I had the same reaction but once you mount it and slap that heavy new knob on it it feels pretty good (consistent). 

 Peete.


----------



## insyte

Nice combo price for the C2C


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had the same reaction but once you mount it and slap that heavy new knob on it it feels pretty good (consistent). 

 Peete._

 

Hmmm, strange. The one mounted on this one feels pretty rough to me. I must be spoiled rotten


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is this promo price? Is it less than the $335 listed on the web site?_

 

As the others have pointed out. It's basically the figure on the price list + shipping. Add 4% if paying by paypal.

 I love that site, there's some real twilight zone effect there, where I don't quite know how I got to a certain page. It took me some time to figure out how to find my way around. It's like one of those stories where you lose your way at night, and wander into a small village. In the morning you wake up in the middle of nowhere and nobody believes your story.

 I'm really looking forward to this combo. Kingwa sounds like a nice lad as well and put up with me asking questions. I'll hold buying other cans as advised, but thank you all for suggestions. No doubt I'll return to the subject.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hello,

 I'm experiencing very loud intermittent clipping ('pop' sound) when turning the volume knob on my upgraded C-2C, both with music playing and without.

 I received my C-2C in mid-July and used it then with my HD650 (300 Ohm impedance, 103dB/mW sensitivity). I can't recall if I had this problem then. However, since pairing the amp with my AD2000 (40 Ohm impedance, 102dB/mW), the problem has become more distinct.

 I emailed Kingwa, and this was his reply:



 1) I currently have my C-2C paired with the Zero DAC. I tried running the C-2C straight out of my iMac, and while the clicking noise was audible enough (not soft; moderate volume), it was not nearly as loud as when paired with the Zero, which could produce a loud 'pop' noise. However, I'd add that the input signal from the Zero is much higher than that of the iMac (ie. I have to turn the volume knob higher when running out of the iMac to get the same volume).
 2) I doubt this is the reason, as the AD2000 has a lower sensitivity than the HD650.
 3) Not sure.
 4) Doubt so. The clipping occurs regardless of the speed at which the volume knob is turned.

 I'm guessing (1) is the most plausible reason, but I thought I'd check if anyone else is experiencing the same issue? Have my headphones been damaged in anyway? They still sound okay to me, for now. If it is my Zero, does it mean it's faulty? What exactly is/causes high DC offset anyway?

 Thanks._

 

Was there a resolution to this question? I have in my possession a unit like yours. It doesn't make any popping or clicking. But it can be kinda "half switched" when in between switches.


----------



## Jodet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a question for you guys with the Upgraded C-2C. Do you guys like the feel of that attenuator? I have one I'm looking at for someone and that attenuator requires a pretty high amount of force to switch and feels rough to me during the entire switching process. Basically the antithesis of smooth._

 

My C2C arrived with the new attenuator. It was basically worthless. It has a really cheap feeling, does not track well at low volumes, and has so few 'stages' that it's basically a two position switch. At click three it's too soft and at click four it's too loud. 

 I've been working with Audio-GD to get this resolved. We're waiting for parts. I'll post more when this gets resolved, but for now I would definately warn people about that stepped attenuator. Maybe mine was defective as well as cheap, maybe I have more efficient headphones, maybe I listen at lower volumes than other people. 

 The frustrating thing is I emailed Kingwa about this before I bought it, telling him I was concerned about low-level tracking with a stepped attenuator. He told me 'buy the more expensive one, it works better'. Yeah. Right.


----------



## haloxt

D5000 are pretty sensitive headphones,and audio-gd tends to make headphone amps that can go really high. Drosera had headphones stuck in the range where channel imbalance occurred with the prototype compass (gain was lowered since) and your headphones would probably be in the same place as well with the normal volume control. People with sensitive headphones should ask audio-gd to lower the gain.


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jodet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My C2C arrived with the new attenuator. It was basically worthless. It has a really cheap feeling, does not track well at low volumes, and has so few 'stages' that it's basically a two position switch._

 

I'm sure you'll keep us updated. I hope it all turns out alright; a bit worrying to be honest. I ordered the upgraded c2c as well, so I gather this means I'll get the stepped version too. It seems to get either rave reviews or disheartening complaints. Just for a test, has anybody here used a very sensitive IEM or something with it? Were the volume steps too rough?


----------



## Jodet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure you'll keep us updated. I hope it all turns out alright; a bit worrying to be honest. I ordered the upgraded c2c as well, so I gather this means I'll get the stepped version too. It seems to get either rave reviews or disheartening complaints. Just for a test, has anybody here used a very sensitive IEM or something with it? Were the volume steps too rough?_

 

I'm using a Quad 99 CDP-2 and there was some talk that it might have an unusally 'hot' output. I'm not sure about that. But I certainly know that the combinaton of that CD player, my efficient cans and the fact that I'm a low-level listener (mostly classical music, particularly guitar and piano) made the stepped volume pot on the C2C...umm....less than really useable. 

 Please let us know what you think when you get yours. If you have similar experience to mine I'm sure you can work with Kingwa to get everything working for you.


----------



## bryanbhu

Yes, I'm sure things will work out. I guess I've overreacted a bit because I placed the order like a normal highstreet shopping, so the thought of shipping large boxes back and forth half way around the globe for repairs and/or fiddling around with the inside scared me a bit, if you know what I mean?

 In reality I'm very much looking forward to it! I love that industrious look as well, kinda groovy


----------



## K3cT

Keep us updated, Jodet. I'm sure you have tried to change your source yes?


----------



## Currawong

I have a Goldpoint in mine, which is neither cheap nor poor quality, and sometimes with low impedance headphones I don't like it, as the steps are too big. I found that it could be a bit poppy new too, so it might be worth turning the volume knob a few dozen times to see if that fixes things.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have a Goldpoint in mine, which is neither cheap nor poor quality, and sometimes with low impedance headphones I don't like it, as the steps are too big. I found that it could be a bit poppy new too, so it might be worth turning the volume knob a few dozen times to see if that fixes things._

 

It does not feel like it will get any better feeling with use, maybe some.

 But this make me think of a REAL C-2C upgrade. Use just the Volumite encoder and volume portion of the logic board of the Phoenix with the relays as a 70 stepped attenuator. That would be worth the extra bucks.

 Maybe something to suggest for future Deluxe products.


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was there a resolution to this question? I have in my possession a unit like yours. It doesn't make any popping or clicking. But it can be kinda "half switched" when in between switches._

 

Hey les. I haven't had time to really look into the issue at all. Probably after December..... Will update.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hey les. I haven't had time to really look into the issue at all. Probably after December..... Will update._

 

OK, was just wondering if it decreased over time. Thanx!


----------



## bryanbhu

So, does this all mean that the stepped attenuator brand varies from unit to unit? And their characteristics vary?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, does this all mean that the stepped attenuator brand varies from unit to unit? And their characteristics vary?_

 

They're all the same, used on the Chinese Space Shuttle.


----------



## bryanbhu

So, these issues which cropped up so far are just freak incidents, or do all units behave in that way and some people just find it a problem while others don't?

 Sorry if I'm asking what appears to be a silly question, but I can't seem to get a grip on the situation on the ground with regards to this volume pot. Using rationale, I would have thought a persistent problem (i.e. a fundamental problem) would've come under greater scrutiny with this many C2C units out there, but most posters don't even raise it as an issue. So I don't know what to make of all this. Are these only problems only if you choose to turn them into a problem, or is it a much more fundamental, inherent problem with this product, which other products generally don't suffer from?

 I just can't fathom the nature or scale of the problem reading here. Any comments welcome.


----------



## haloxt

In the past, some people noticed the C-2C and compass had too high volume for high sensitivity headphones and audio-gd had the volume lowered. Apparently it wasn't lowered enough for comfortable use with Jodet's headphones. I think it might be a good idea if audio-gd makes a low-gain and high-gain version of the C-2C, one for people with sensitive headphones and another for people with power-hungry headphones.


----------



## Currawong

My Goldpoint wasn't exactly fantastic at first when changing the volume. I'd suggest rotating the knob a few dozen times to see if that helps. I think it's just the way stepped attenuators are.


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In the past, some people noticed the C-2C and compass had too high volume for high sensitivity headphones and audio-gd had the volume lowered. Apparently it wasn't lowered enough for comfortable use with Jodet's headphones. I think it might be a good idea if audio-gd makes a low-gain and high-gain version of the C-2C, one for people with sensitive headphones and another for people with power-hungry headphones._

 

Conventionally, though, will C-2C cause that much problems with the default gain (of the current model)? Looking across various common cans out there, there are a lot which falls in around 25-100 ohms, including aforementioned (or afore-recommended, should I say) DENONs. Senns are more on the minority end, being 300. With the volume pot in question, at the default gain, what o'clock is your average listening level with the Senns? From what you guys have been saying, I get the impression that C-2C's power is an overkill even at present time. Or if you lower the gain, would that impact the senns too absurdly?

 I'm thinking, there must be some rationale behind why the gain is at the current level with the current model. I'm just trying to figure out if I should have it altered before it ships. If there is a predictable problem approaching, it'd be stupid of me not to try alter it before it ships (as opposed to sending it back the moment it arrives). Or am I worrying over nothing?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Conventionally, though, will C-2C cause that much problems with the default gain (of the current model)? Looking across various common cans out there, there are a lot which falls in around 25-100 ohms, including aforementioned (or afore-recommended, should I say) DENONs. Senns are more on the minority end, being 300. With the volume pot in question, at the default gain, what o'clock is your average listening level with the Senns? From what you guys have been saying, I get the impression that C-2C's power is an overkill even at present time. Or if you lower the gain, would that impact the senns too absurdly?

 I'm thinking, there must be some rationale behind why the gain is at the current level with the current model. I'm just trying to figure out if I should have it altered before it ships. If there is a predictable problem approaching, it'd be stupid of me not to try alter it before it ships (as opposed to sending it back the moment it arrives). Or am I worrying over nothing?_

 

There is not a Gain issue. The one I'm listening to is with a 32ohm Grado at 1:00.


----------



## bryanbhu

les_garten, that's the "normal" listening level, I gather (I know that's a loose term). When you fancy changing the average volume of listening (for a reason or another), do you find that the turning it a notch up/down too much of a jump in volume at times? Or does it get it right more or less?


----------



## haloxt

Sensitivity is the important thing here, those Denons Jodet is using has 106dB/mW sensitivity. About every 3 dB above 85 doubles the sound pressure.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_les_garten, that's the "normal" listening level, I gather (I know that's a loose term). When you fancy changing the average volume of listening (for a reason or another), do you find that the turning it a notch up/down too much of a jump in volume at times? Or does it get it right more or less?_

 

It does for me, but I would prefer more steps, like 48 steps. Or the Phoenix 70 steps.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sensitivity is the important thing here, those Denons Jodet is using has 106dB/mW sensitivity. About every 3 dB above 85 doubles the sound pressure._

 

I listened to it with D5000s and it's around 10-11:00.


----------



## MomijiTMO

So how would this rate against a Meier Aria/Cantate? I'd assume it's better right?


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I listened to it with D5000s and it's around 10-11:00._

 

Alright thanks lads. By the sound of it it's really more of tracking issue with number of steps and not easily "dealt with" by fiddling the gain beyond basic level. I guess I'll just let it be, I don't think I'll have issues. If I do, well, I'll deal with it afterwards.
  Quote:


 So how would this rate against a Meier Aria/Cantate? I'd assume it's better right? 
 

I had hell of a time comparing C2C with anything as it seems to be somewhat a newer breed, but there were a few excellent, detailed review vs a few amps and fragments of remarks here and there, to give you rough guideline. Actually, my 1st post deals with this, if you want to take a look (click on my name and search). Also, if you search for "compass vs Cantate", there is a small thread on it with some impressions; compass is an amp/dac combo that's supposed to be 1 tier below C2C by the same maker.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Haha, I did read your thread before 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Do your own research is what I employ although sometimes there isn't an identical thread. I was really liking the Caliente but the extra fee + strong USD/AUD has swung me back towards the C2C. Looks like I'll be buying a C2C.


----------



## jsplice

I'm finding that the Compass with the HD650s don't really have all that oomph I'm looking for. Would it be worthwhile to upgrade to the C2C? I have a DacMagic at home I could steal from my speaker system, which would have to of course be replaced at home point....


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jsplice* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm finding that the Compass with the HD650s don't really have all that oomph I'm looking for. Would it be worthwhile to upgrade to the C2C? I have a DacMagic at home I could steal from my speaker system, which would have to of course be replaced at home point...._

 

With HD-600s, at the time I had them, I liked the Northstar M192/C2C combo, so I'd say a source upgrade would be worth considering as well, which if you went all Audio-gd would be the DAC19MK3. The C2C is noticeably better than the amp in the Compass, giving more soundstage/headstage with Senns and correspondingly more detail if the DAC is good enough.


----------



## tim3320070

My C2C with HD650 sounded great- powerful and alive (using a Ref-1 though).


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Jodet could always have a impedance adapter made or DIY it himself. Get the impedance range into the mid 300 hundreds and I bet his experience will improve quite a bit. The quality of resistors (matched pairs) will effect SQ so don't use cheap junk. You don't have to go with super expensive parts either (although the cost of a decent adapter will still be under 30 dollars and maybe 10 dollars depending on jack quality).

 Generally speaking the use of super efficient cans with any amp can be a very tricky pairing. Anything over 100 db will be loud even with flea powered portables.

 Peete.


----------



## Jodet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sensitivity is the important thing here, those Denons Jodet is using has 106dB/mW sensitivity. About every 3 dB above 85 doubles the sound pressure._

 

Before I ordered my C2c I emailed Kingwa, told him what phones I had and expressed my concerns about the 'usability' of the stepped pot with the Denons. He said, 'get the expensive pot, it works better'. 

 When my amp arrived (a week late) there were two issues with the pot. One, the quality issue. It felt 'cheap' (extremely) and when you moved the volume up and down it would not track properly. You would get things like 'both channels are left output', that kind of thing. Second, I could literally not go beyond four 'clicks' before it was too loud. Click 1 was 'barely hear it', 2 was 'very soft', 3 was 'almost loud enough' and 4 was 'too loud'. So basically I had a headphone amp with 2-position volume control - 'too soft' or 'too loud'. Granted, I have unusually good hearing (and intend to keep it that way) so I listen at lower volumes than most people. 

 The unit sounded pretty good (didn't get to hear it a lot) and seemed to have a very nice build quality (other than the volume pot issue). Both Kingwa and his service guy (who is VERY nice, by the way, and very helpful) advised against changing the gain on this to make it more useable with Denons. 

 After waiting a week for a new part (the standard pot) and not even having a tracking number I decided to simply return the unit. This was an expensive (I'm out about 70 bucks shipping) and tedious experience (this took about a month to resolve). 

 I would strongly advise Denon owners to not order this 'stepped' pot. I never heard the C2C with a 'standard' volume control, but I suspect it's a very nice unit for the price. People with less efficient cans who are listening in the 10-2 o'clock range probably have a MUCH better experience with the stepped attenuator. Just for a test I tried a variable output source (with poorer fidelity) to enable me to use the stepped pot between a higher range and it seemed to track much better there.

 If you have specific questions about my experiences with this amp please feel free to PM me.


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jodet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He said, 'get the expensive pot, it works better'. 

 When my amp arrived (a week late) there were two issues with the pot._

 

I gather that 'expensive pot' is what's offered with the standard upgraded C-2C. I can understand that the issue with sensitivity and volume pot increments is inherent, so again, I gather your case isn't an isolated incident. How does that translate into my situation, I wonder. Senns I'm not worried about (and I don't have Denons), but what about HF2? Not sure if it has a low enough sensitivity. It would be rather complicated if I got another pair of cans and found myself buying another amp, not because of the synergy, but just because there's too much power. Or is that sort of circumstance normal with any desktop amps without impedance matching? Academically, I can see that it might be as there would be more power than in portables.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Probably have the same issues mate.


----------



## les_garten

Ok, I have the amp in question. 

 Everybody is different of course. I listened with D5000s at 12:00-1:00, HF-2s at 1:00, GS1000s at 1:00, Beyer 770 Pro 80 OHMs at 1:00. Various other Grados at the same settings. I had no issues finding a comfortable and preferred level. The steps Jodet was listening at are not usable to me because they are too low. 

 I've made it pretty clear that I don't care much for the Stepped attenuator and how it feels. But functionally it works like the designer intended. The attenuator switches fine if you switch it with some intent, like you are bumping it levels. If you slowly twist the knob it does what Jodet suggests it does. It can be between steps, and when it is, it does not sound that great. Switch it with intent is the moral of the story.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Interesting that you have no issues whatsoever with volume control. I guess it depends on your dac + pleasurable listening levels. Still, a bit weird you have to 'switch it with intent' to gain a level. Do you have to back it down 2 then up it 3? Kind of user dependant I assume but still. . . . a bit weird.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MomijiTMO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting that you have no issues whatsoever with volume control. I guess it depends on your dac + pleasurable listening levels. Still, a bit weird you have to 'switch it with intent' to gain a level. Do you have to back it down 2 then up it 3? Kind of user dependant I assume but still. . . . a bit weird. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

It's a switch that is switching resisters IN and OUT. You have 23 switches here. If you turn it slow it can be between posiitons. If you just snap it into the next position, then it just goes into the next slot.

 Lets say you had a dimmer switch that dimmed two lights at once with resisters attached to switches causing the dimming in a rotary selector. If you moved between switch positions with the switch snapping into each position, both lights would do the same thing pretty much instantly.

 However, if you moved the switch slowly like a normal dimmer, you may be able to have one light at one level before the other light changes to that level. You can be in a position where one switch has switched before the other switch has switched. Best analogy I could come up with.

 This stepped attenuator is a $25 switcher, the DACT costs $200, there's a reason for that. Most people are not going to drop $200-$250 for a vol controller on the C-2C so this is a viable option. SQ wise, I'm sure A-GDs is great for the $$$, if switched positively. If it shifted gears a little slicker it would be great. Possibly it will loosen up a little with use.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Sir where is your humour button? I can't seem to find it. But yes I wasn't knocking you or your post. Thanks for the thorough explanation though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MomijiTMO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sir where is your humour button? I can't seem to find it. But yes I wasn't knocking you or your post. Thanks for the thorough explanation though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

Not sure what you are referring to here. You asked a question and I tried to explain was all. I didn't know the question was Humor? I missed that for sure. I also didn't mean my post to do anything but explain. We speak different languages, that may be it. Howz that for Humor?


----------



## MomijiTMO

lol, well I thought everyone would have realised that my question was so absurd that it didn't warrant such a well crafted responce. Great now I feel bad. Evil humour you have 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MomijiTMO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_lol, well I thought everyone would have realised that my question was so absurd that it didn't warrant such a well crafted responce. Great now I feel bad. Evil humour you have 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

No worries! That's me speakin' OZ. There was an escalating worry starting that was unwarranted, so I tried to spell everything out in detail is all I was doing. I think the C-2C was bad Synergistic wise with it's owner.


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No worries! That's me speakin' OZ. There was an escalating worry starting that was unwarranted, so I tried to spell everything out in detail is all I was doing._

 

Actually, les_garten, I think those posts you made are some of the most informative on specifics. So thank you. You haplessly answered the questions before I asked them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I didn't get the "humour" myself, I thought those were decent questions. I would've asked them if Momiji didn't!

 And you're right about the worrying murmurs arising. After Jodet raised the matter, there was an uncomfortable silence and few minor remarks made as if people were on their backfoot. So a part of me took that as an acknowledgement from other C2C owners that it is indeed a inherently problematic product, which it may very well turn out to be for me too.

 Anyway. Good to get different angles to this. I'd rather know as I'm determined to get it anyway; I'm dying to hear it. As far as negative side is concerned, I'd rather be prepared rather than be surprised. I don't expect perfection from this price bracket anyway. It's good to know what owners find enjoyable and annoying, genuinely.

 The gap in the experience between Jodet and you is staggering, from where I'm standing. I keep thinking Jodet's case is an isolated incident, but on the other hand there's no reason why it's not a normal behaviour from technical standpoint so it must be a personal difference. Bizarre, nevertheless, from third person's point of view.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Actually, les_garten, I think those posts you made are some of the most informative on specifics. So thank you. You haplessly answered the questions before I asked them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I didn't get the "humour" myself, I thought those were decent questions. I would've asked them if Momiji didn't!

 And you're right about the worrying murmurs arising. After Jodet raised the matter, there was an uncomfortable silence and few minor remarks made as if people were on their backfoot. So a part of me took that as an acknowledgement from other C2C owners that it is indeed a inherently problematic product, which it may very well turn out to be for me too.

 Anyway. Good to get different angles to this. I'd rather know as I'm determined to get it anyway; I'm dying to hear it. As far as negative side is concerned, I'd rather be prepared rather than be surprised. I don't expect perfection from this price bracket anyway. It's good to know what owners find enjoyable and annoying, genuinely.

 The gap in the experience between Jodet and you is staggering, from where I'm standing. I keep thinking Jodet's case is an isolated incident, but on the other hand there's no reason why it's not a normal behaviour from technical standpoint so it must be a personal difference. Bizarre, nevertheless, from third person's point of view._

 

When are you getting yours?


----------



## RatFarm

What is the value for the original ALPS pot or the new attenuator (20k, 25k)...? A nice Goldpoint attemuator would be something to consider, especially the one they have that uses SMD resistors!

http://www.goldpt.com/compare.html


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RatFarm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the value for the original ALPS pot or the new attenuator (20k, 25k)...? A nice Goldpoint attemuator would be something to consider, especially the one they have that uses SMD resistors!

Compare Attenuator Types_

 

10K Alps

 But that loops back around to how much a Goldpoint costs installed compared to the "Upgrade" stepper. If you don't mind the feel and don't have sensitive ears, the Upgrade stepper is a deal.

 $150 for the Goldpoint
 $10 shiping
 $50 at least for install


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_When are you getting yours?_

 

No clue mate. I paid on the 5th for c2c upgraded + 19mk3 (2 coax) combo. So it's been 16 days and it hasn't been shipped yet, as far as I know. I have no clue beyond that, I'm just sitting tight as I don't know what Kingwa's workflow is like. I'm curious as to when it'll ship, but I don't really want to disturb him either.

 EDIT: quoted.


----------



## userlander

I just bought a C2C off a head-fier, and I /thought/ this attenuated volume thing was an "upgrade" to the standard model, is that right? So hopefully mine won't have that "feature." 

 But it does raise the question: Why the attenuated volume pot at all? Was there something wrong or undesirable about the original volume controller?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just bought a C2C off a head-fier, and I /thought/ this attenuated volume thing was an "upgrade" to the standard model, is that right? So hopefully mine won't have that "feature." 

 But it does raise the question: Why the attenuated volume pot at all? Was there something wrong or undesirable about the original volume controller?_

 

Read up on advantages of stepped attenuators.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Conventionally, though, will C-2C cause that much problems with the default gain (of the current model)? Looking across various common cans out there, there are a lot which falls in around 25-100 ohms, including aforementioned (or afore-recommended, should I say) DENONs. Senns are more on the minority end, being 300. With the volume pot in question, at the default gain, what o'clock is your average listening level with the Senns? From what you guys have been saying, I get the impression that C-2C's power is an overkill even at present time. Or if you lower the gain, would that impact the senns too absurdly?

 I'm thinking, there must be some rationale behind why the gain is at the current level with the current model. I'm just trying to figure out if I should have it altered before it ships. If there is a predictable problem approaching, it'd be stupid of me not to try alter it before it ships (as opposed to sending it back the moment it arrives). Or am I worrying over nothing?_

 

Having a lot of reserve (power) on tap is a very desirable thing to have. Think of it this way an amp is asked to deliver a certain level (say 80db) into a fixed load, it's max power rating for that load will be finite more or less. Now if your headphones are highly inefficient that reserve will be needed to drive them to a comfortable or loud level but if you are bumping up against the max mwattage the amp can deliver (say 200 mw @ 120 ohm for example) at this volume level you run into many undesirable audio artifacts (compression of peaks, increased distortion, bass thinning out and mids getting raspy). Underpowered vs overpowered also has to do with a stock gain level setting that is selected by the designer as a ball park figure (say 6 db vs 3 db) to give the most coverage of the various cans made (in terms of impedance and efficiency ratings) and to give those headphones a decent range of use with the volume pot provided. The Alps RK27 is a good pot but like all carbon wiper types it has channel imbalance issues at the lowest volume settings, something a well made stepped pot will not have any issue with at any of it's settings (ideally speaking). With that said the idea is to select a gain level for the amp that gives you good compliance with the various loads the most popular headphone brands present and to allow the comfortable listening range to be squarely in the sweet spot of the Alps pot. (7;30 - 1 o'clock positions) where any channel imbalance is minimized.

 Getting back to the power on tap from the C-2C , the additional oomph is needed to cover cans like AKG's which are very inefficient and somewhat low impedance compared to the Senn types and to have an additional level of clean headroom to curb any ill audio effects (peak compression,bass thinning out etc) at your preferred loudness levels. Some people listen at very loud levels while others do not but you need to make sure you have everyone covered with enough reserve power...well I think you get the idea 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 At any rate the additional power = clean headroom/added flexibility to cover a wide range of cans (not IEMS however I've seen people plug IEMS into it).

 As an aside my personal philosophy for my 2 channel system is thus "You can never have too much power on tap" Too little is actually more dangerous to speakers than too much. Once clipping set's in fidelity goes to pot, heavy clipping fries tweeters (of all manner and type).

 I hope that helped a little.

 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I gather that 'expensive pot' is what's offered with the standard upgraded C-2C. I can understand that the issue with sensitivity and volume pot increments is inherent, so again, I gather your case isn't an isolated incident. How does that translate into my situation, I wonder. Senns I'm not worried about (and I don't have Denons), but what about HF2? Not sure if it has a low enough sensitivity. It would be rather complicated if I got another pair of cans and found myself buying another amp, not because of the synergy, but just because there's too much power. Or is that sort of circumstance normal with any desktop amps without impedance matching? Academically, I can see that it might be as there would be more power than in portables._

 

The HF2's are terrific with the C-2C. Plenty of usable range with the stepped pot with these cans. I liked the pairing so much (at the recent mini meet) that I'm seriously looking for a pair of HF-2s to buy (in the near future). The A-gd stepped attenuator is not really an "expensive pot" per se...look at the cost of a Gold Point or DACT for true sticker shock (5 X the price of the A-gd pot or more).

 Peete.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RatFarm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is the value for the original ALPS pot or the new attenuator (20k, 25k)...? A nice Goldpoint attemuator would be something to consider, especially the one they have that uses SMD resistors!

http://www.goldpt.com/compare.html_

 

The original pot is a 50K Alps blue. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No clue mate. I paid on the 5th for c2c upgraded + 19mk3 (2 coax) combo. So it's been 16 days and it hasn't been shipped yet, as far as I know. I have no clue beyond that, I'm just sitting tight as I don't know what Kingwa's workflow is like. I'm curious as to when it'll ship, but I don't really want to disturb him either.

 EDIT: quoted._

 

I'd email them and find out what is happening. If you email them and don't get a reply fairly quickly, PM me with your email address. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just bought a C2C off a head-fier, and I /thought/ this attenuated volume thing was an "upgrade" to the standard model, is that right? So hopefully mine won't have that "feature." 

 But it does raise the question: Why the attenuated volume pot at all? Was there something wrong or undesirable about the original volume controller?_

 

While the Alps blue pot is used fairly universally, even on very expensive amps, such as the Luxman ones, it's far from perfect. At very low volumes you can get channel imbalance. Stepped attenuators are designed to pass the signal through a high quality resistor instead. The disadvantage of them is, you lose infinite variability in the volume and you initially get the annoyances people have mentioned previously when they are new. At the time I ordered my new C2C I decided in an expensive experiment to order it with the Goldpoint, mostly because I hadn't imagined I might upgrade in the future (this was before the Phoenix existed and the HD-800s released).

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The HF2's are terrific with the C-2C. Plenty of usable range with the stepped pot with these cans. I liked the pairing so much (at the recent mini meet) that I'm seriously looking for a pair of HF-2s to buy (in the near future). The A-gd stepped attenuator is not really an "expensive pot" per se...look at the cost of a Gold Point or DACT for true sticker shock (5 X the price of the A-gd pot or more).

 Peete._

 

x2 about the HF-2s. It's a great match to the point I have recently not bothered using my Phoenix rig with them, but just the C2C.


----------



## RatFarm

"I decided in an expensive experiment to order it with the Goldpoint, mostly because I hadn't imagined I might upgrade in the future (this was before the Phoenix existed and the HD-800s released)."

 Are you saying that the Goldpoint wasn't worth it or are you happy you upgraded to it?


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RatFarm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"I decided in an expensive experiment to order it with the Goldpoint, mostly because I hadn't imagined I might upgrade in the future (this was before the Phoenix existed and the HD-800s released)."

 Are you saying that the Goldpoint wasn't worth it or are you happy you upgraded to it?_

 

When I compared it to my original C2C, there was an improvement, but not a huge one. It would probably be more worth it for a higher-end amp, but at least I got a chance to hear how much difference one could make.


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The HF2's are terrific with the C-2C. Plenty of usable range with the stepped pot with these cans._

 

Glad to hear it Peete. Thank you for all the explanations as well. I managed to get hold of HF2 now, so that got me thinking. I'm surprised that even a standard discman drives HF2 fairly well without a portable amp, I was guessing that it must have a fairly high sensitivity on top of having low impedance. That got me worried with all the Denon stuff going on earlier; having said I love the Senns, it'd be nice to use something else as well. Anyway, I don't think I'm a low volume listener, so I hope it'll work out one way or another.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd email them and find out what is happening. If you email them and don't get a reply *fairly quickly*, PM me with your email address._

 

Ok, I'll let you know if it comes to that. Thank you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What's "fairly quickly" in the context of their workflow, by the way? Last time I emailed him, I had to send a reminder 48 hours later. He then told me the first one was read by a staff but was not passed onto him 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't know if I was being hasty or they were just too busy. I don't want to end up annoying or rushing them either. I'd rather they do a good job, so I just shut up about it and sat and waited. I don't know if that's wise, but I guess I'm a bit afraid of cultural differences here.

 Edit: I've just got a reply. Shipping early next week, light at the end of a tunnel?


----------



## userlander

I got my C-2C today - I have to say I have mixed feelings about it. 

 It's not a *bad* sounding amp, it has a lot of clarity, but I guess I am a little disappointed with it overall. It's a lot less dynamic than I was expecting, and almost thin sounding in comparison to the Jade. I would say in fact that the Jade easily beats it in every single way except perhaps width of soundstage. The C-2C is a little wider while the Jade is more "rounded," full and rich. Otherwise, no contest. Not to mention the Jade has a mini jack input along with the RCA inputs, two output stages, and a variable gain switch. The Jade is clearly the price/performance winner here. 

 Believe it or not, I actually find the C-2C only a slight improvement over my hotaudio portable amp, totally srs. I've been A/Bing for hours and as much as I fight against it, I keep coming to the same conclusions. The top end of the C2C is definitely better -- smoother, less sibilance, and there is better separation throughout. But the hotaudio has more bass and midbass, a better, more sparkly midrange, and even more power. It just sounds overall punchier, warmer and more lively. I'm actually constantly amazed at how good that little amp sounds. 

 I'm planning to upgrade my DAC, looking at a few including the Dacmagic, the valab, the keces 151 and a couple others, but even with the gear I have now the Jade is the clear winner, with the C-2C and RM-1 tied, each with different strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad I didn't get the compass - if the RM-1 is this close to the C-2C, I can only imagine it bests the compass easily. And based on what I've read about compass vs. C2C, I'd think the Jade would completely blow the compass out of the water. 

 Sorry to step on anyone's toes - I can only be honest about what I hear. I doubt it's 'break in' issues, as I bought the c2c used from the forum. But we'll see, maybe it still needs some more hours.


----------



## bryanbhu

Thanks userlander, for an update. The comparison with RM-1 (which I had briefly as well) is really staggering. It'll be interesting to see how I'll actually find C-2C, with DAC19 feeding it. How amazing it is that there's such a variable feedback on this amp, I wonder which side of the line I'll fall on...! As for Jade, I actually think a lot of today's chinese tube offerings present a steep competition right now. I'd have gone for them if I were after tubes. What are you using to feed C2C, by the way?


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got my C-2C today - I have to say I have mixed feelings about it. 

 It's not a *bad* sounding amp, it has a lot of clarity, but I guess I am a little disappointed with it overall. It's a lot less dynamic than I was expecting, and almost thin sounding in comparison to the Jade. I would say in fact that the Jade easily beats it in every single way except perhaps width of soundstage. The C-2C is a little wider while the Jade is more "rounded," full and rich. Otherwise, no contest. Not to mention the Jade has a mini jack input along with the RCA inputs, two output stages, and a variable gain switch. The Jade is clearly the price/performance winner here. 

 Believe it or not, I actually find the C-2C only a slight improvement over my hotaudio portable amp, totally srs. I've been A/Bing for hours and as much as I fight against it, I keep coming to the same conclusions. The top end of the C2C is definitely better -- smoother, less sibilance, and there is better separation throughout. But the hotaudio has more bass and midbass, a better, more sparkly midrange, and even more power. It just sounds overall punchier, warmer and more lively. I'm actually constantly amazed at how good that little amp sounds. 

 I'm planning to upgrade my DAC, looking at a few including the Dacmagic, the valab, the keces 151 and a couple others, but even with the gear I have now the Jade is the clear winner, with the C-2C and RM-1 tied, each with different strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad I didn't get the compass - if the RM-1 is this close to the C-2C, I can only imagine it bests the compass easily. And based on what I've read about compass vs. C2C, I'd think the Jade would completely blow the compass out of the water. 

 Sorry to step on anyone's toes - I can only be honest about what I hear. I doubt it's 'break in' issues, as I bought the c2c used from the forum. But we'll see, maybe it still needs some more hours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'd run it in continuously for two weeks and give it a listen again.

 I had the C-2C for two weeks when I acquired my (used) AD2000. It sounded like crap initially. Without exaggeration, it quite literally transformed after a day or two of burn in.

 I had a similar experience with my HD650; the C-2C was new then. It took two weeks of burn in for the sound to really open up, and even afterward it continued to improve.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks userlander, for an update. The comparison with RM-1 (which I had briefly as well) is really staggering. It'll be interesting to see how I'll actually find C-2C, with DAC19 feeding it. How amazing it is that there's such a variable feedback on this amp, I wonder which side of the line I'll fall on...! As for Jade, I actually think a lot of today's chinese tube offerings present a steep competition right now. I'd have gone for them if I were after tubes. What are you using to feed C2C, by the way?_

 

I'd really like to have something like an ibasso or a pico to compare the hotaudio against for some perspective on these portables. I also need to listen to the C-2C more to get adjusted to its profile, but I keep coming up with the same results so far.

 Some is objective, too. For example, using my Beyers, the C-2C sounds pretty good around 12 o'clock, grados (alessandros) around 9-10. There's a slight volume increase from 12-3, and then nothing from 3-6 (max). I can listen to beyers at max volume without too much problem, which sounds no different from around 2-3. With the hotaudio, full volume is too loud. Not that volume = quality, but it really surprised me that the 9v portable seems to have more power. And like I said, there is also more bass, but whether it's better bass I still need to evaluate. 

 I won't feel really comfortable with these observations until I get a better dac, but I also listened to Jade and C-2C from my sony CDP with pretty much the same results (no RCA on the RM-1 to test that) -- if anything, the C-2C sounded even thinner from there (it's a very neutral/bright cdp) -- and also tested all three with the line out from my panasonic portable player as well as the hotaudio dac from my thinkpad (320kbps mp3 and ogg). So it could just be that my preference leans to tubes, and the RM-1 is definitely warmer than the c2c, so that could account for some of what I'm hearing (or think I'm hearing). But I was expecting the C2C to have a little more oomph, which it definitely doesn't have.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd run it in continuously for two weeks and give it a listen again.

 I had the C-2C for two weeks when I acquired my (used) AD2000. It sounded like crap initially. Without exaggeration, it quite literally transformed after a day or two of burn in.

 I had a similar experience with my HD650; the C-2C was new then. It took two weeks of burn in for the sound to really open up, and even afterward it continued to improve._

 

But like I said, this isn't new. I bought it from a forumite who had it for at least a few months. Maybe he hardly used it, but I don't think so. I think he said he liked it so much he was upgrading to the phoenix. So I think it is fairly broken in by now.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm planning to upgrade my DAC, looking at a few including the Dacmagic, the valab, the keces 151 and a couple others, but even with the gear I have now the Jade is the clear winner, with the C-2C and RM-1 tied, each with different strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad I didn't get the compass - if the RM-1 is this close to the C-2C, I can only imagine it bests the compass easily. And based on what I've read about compass vs. C2C, I'd think the Jade would completely blow the compass out of the water. 

 Sorry to step on anyone's toes - I can only be honest about what I hear. I doubt it's 'break in' issues, as I bought the c2c used from the forum. But we'll see, maybe it still needs some more hours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I think upgrading your DAC would show a difference. However, I would say that it's that you like the sound of a warm tube amp vs. a solid state one.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got my C-2C today - I have to say I have mixed feelings about it. 

 It's not a *bad* sounding amp, it has a lot of clarity, but I guess I am a little disappointed with it overall. It's a lot less dynamic than I was expecting, and almost thin sounding in comparison to the Jade. I would say in fact that the Jade easily beats it in every single way except perhaps width of soundstage. The C-2C is a little wider while the Jade is more "rounded," full and rich. Otherwise, no contest. Not to mention the Jade has a mini jack input along with the RCA inputs, two output stages, and a variable gain switch. The Jade is clearly the price/performance winner here. 

 Believe it or not, I actually find the C-2C only a slight improvement over my hotaudio portable amp, totally srs. I've been A/Bing for hours and as much as I fight against it, I keep coming to the same conclusions. The top end of the C2C is definitely better -- smoother, less sibilance, and there is better separation throughout. But the hotaudio has more bass and midbass, a better, more sparkly midrange, and even more power. It just sounds overall punchier, warmer and more lively. I'm actually constantly amazed at how good that little amp sounds. 

 I'm planning to upgrade my DAC, looking at a few including the Dacmagic, the valab, the keces 151 and a couple others, but even with the gear I have now the Jade is the clear winner, with the C-2C and RM-1 tied, each with different strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad I didn't get the compass - if the RM-1 is this close to the C-2C, I can only imagine it bests the compass easily. And based on what I've read about compass vs. C2C, I'd think the Jade would completely blow the compass out of the water. 

 Sorry to step on anyone's toes - I can only be honest about what I hear. I doubt it's 'break in' issues, as I bought the c2c used from the forum. But we'll see, maybe it still needs some more hours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Sounds to me that you prefer the tube sound as opposed to the solid state one. 

 For me there is no going back to the tubes after hearing a ß22 though.


----------



## RatFarm

Userlander,

 The Jade looks like a nice amp for the price. Which output do you prefer, the more 'tube-like' or other other one?


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think upgrading your DAC would show a difference. However, I would say that it's that you like the sound of a warm tube amp vs. a solid state one._

 

I think you're right. I'm holding off final judgment until I've upgraded my dac and lived with the amp for a while. 

 On more listening last night, it's clear that the C-2C is an amazingly clear and transparent amp. It's hard to describe, but it seems like it's neutral not only throughout the frequency range, but also in the attack/decay. That makes it seem incredibly smooth. So because of that I guess it doesn't "bloom" like a tube amp or warmer SS amp, making it seem a little thin at first in comparison. 

 I have a feeling when my new dac gets here it's going to be a hard choice between the Jade and the C-2C. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think (for my tastes) the Jade would probably end up sounding better with 250ohm beyers, while the C-2C would probably do better with the 600 ohm because of the smoother highs. But it's going to take some experimentation.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *K3cT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sounds to me that you prefer the tube sound as opposed to the solid state one. 

 For me there is no going back to the tubes after hearing a ß22 though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

really? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is that because the B22 is very tube-like, or because it's like an ultimate SS sound? 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RatFarm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Userlander,

 The Jade looks like a nice amp for the price. Which output do you prefer, the more 'tube-like' or other other one?_

 

I can't believe the price these Jades are going for. A really nice amp for even a hundred or so more, imho. 

 I prefer the left output, which I think is supposedly the less "tube-like" more SS output, strangely enough. I don't like things super warm, and like a lot of detail, but I don't like it too sterile, either. That left output seems to hit it just right.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think upgrading your DAC would show a difference. However, I would say that it's that you like the sound of a warm tube amp vs. a solid state one._

 

I agree. I think the C2C is a good amp. But it is not a tube amp, and there are things tube amps do differently. The Jade is a very nice amp, as well. So you probably prefer it - no harm there.


----------



## K3cT

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_really? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Is that because the B22 is very tube-like, or because it's like an ultimate SS sound?_

 

It's the latter: powerful, dynamic and authoritative. 

 Nothing wrong with tube amps though it just happens that I prefer SS sound for now, similar with you and the tube sound.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I agree. I think the C2C is a good amp. But it is not a tube amp, and there are things tube amps do differently. The Jade is a very nice amp, as well. So you probably prefer it - no harm there._

 

Probably, and I also think the 600ohm beyers would pair better with it, too, because of the supposedly better low end and smoother highs of the 600 ohm (but you would know about that better than me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). And don't forget the TPA6120a2 in the RM-1 is a *very* good chip. Such a great midrange and sparkly warm sound. My Alessandros sing with that little portable.


----------



## SPACEACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got my C-2C today - I have to say I have mixed feelings about it. 

 It's not a *bad* sounding amp, it has a lot of clarity, but I guess I am a little disappointed with it overall. It's a lot less dynamic than I was expecting, and almost thin sounding in comparison to the Jade. I would say in fact that the Jade easily beats it in every single way except perhaps width of soundstage. The C-2C is a little wider while the Jade is more "rounded," full and rich. Otherwise, no contest. Not to mention the Jade has a mini jack input along with the RCA inputs, two output stages, and a variable gain switch. The Jade is clearly the price/performance winner here. 

 Believe it or not, I actually find the C-2C only a slight improvement over my hotaudio portable amp, totally srs. I've been A/Bing for hours and as much as I fight against it, I keep coming to the same conclusions. The top end of the C2C is definitely better -- smoother, less sibilance, and there is better separation throughout. But the hotaudio has more bass and midbass, a better, more sparkly midrange, and even more power. It just sounds overall punchier, warmer and more lively. I'm actually constantly amazed at how good that little amp sounds. 

 I'm planning to upgrade my DAC, looking at a few including the Dacmagic, the valab, the keces 151 and a couple others, but even with the gear I have now the Jade is the clear winner, with the C-2C and RM-1 tied, each with different strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad I didn't get the compass - if the RM-1 is this close to the C-2C, I can only imagine it bests the compass easily. And based on what I've read about compass vs. C2C, I'd think the Jade would completely blow the compass out of the water. 

 Sorry to step on anyone's toes - I can only be honest about what I hear. I doubt it's 'break in' issues, as I bought the c2c used from the forum. But we'll see, maybe it still needs some more hours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Interesting!! I finally made a post. no, I've lurked here forever and have gathered all kinds of info. This post stands out because the C2C is on my short list. My new short list. I've tried all kinds of the cheaper chinese made amps, little dots,zero ect... And have found them all lacking up against my headphone out of my Mac. Yeah I feel my Com put's out a better sound then most amps in the $300 or lower range. But I do want to use my Com as my source, Dacmagic as my Dac. So I was looking at the C2C or the Keces Ha-171. I wanna spend around $400 or so and be done with it.. It hasn't happened yet but from all the hype I thought the C2C was the clear winner.
 But recently some of the reviews have been getting worse. Pot problems, leds not working, even a doa machine. It' seems to me maybe Audio-Gd might be overworked and the product is slipping? OR! Audio-Gd is a victim of the FOTM that's just lasted alot longer?
 I don't know but it seems I might be looking for a few other products. I don't want to go down the road of trying to find a better product once again only to find out it's really lacking. $400, S.S no tubes... anymore help???


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But like I said, this isn't new. I bought it from a forumite who had it for at least a few months. Maybe he hardly used it, but I don't think so. I think he said he liked it so much he was upgrading to the phoenix. So I think it is fairly broken in by now._

 

I know; my C-2C was burned-in daily for two weeks when I got my AD2000 used, and still further burn-in made a difference. Same with my Zero, which I'd had for months.

 This is completely conjecture, but in my experience, burning-in with _your gear_ might make a difference. No harm done, anyhow. Just a suggestion


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SPACEACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Interesting!! I finally made a post. no, I've lurked here forever and have gathered all kinds of info. This post stands out because the C2C is on my short list. My new short list. I've tried all kinds of the cheaper chinese made amps, little dots,zero ect... And have found them all lacking up against my headphone out of my Mac. Yeah I feel my Com put's out a better sound then most amps in the $300 or lower range. But I do want to use my Com as my source, Dacmagic as my Dac. So I was looking at the C2C or the Keces Ha-171. I wanna spend around $400 or so and be done with it.. It hasn't happened yet but from all the hype I thought the C2C was the clear winner.
 But recently some of the reviews have been getting worse. Pot problems, leds not working, even a doa machine. It' seems to me maybe Audio-Gd might be overworked and the product is slipping? OR! Audio-Gd is a victim of the FOTM that's just lasted alot longer?
 I don't know but it seems I might be looking for a few other products. I don't want to go down the road of trying to find a better product once again only to find out it's really lacking. $400, S.S no tubes... anymore help???_

 

Just to be clear, I see no QC issues on this amp at all. My main issue appears to be one of preference, meaning that I prefer a warmer sound and wasn't expecting the C-2C to be quite this neutral. And I don't have the best dac right now, either, and I have the impression that this amp is more source dependent than many in this range, especially tube amps which seem like they will generally be more forgiving. 

 The compass had a huge following (and probably still does) and this amp is said to be even better. So I just thought I would clarify that I think this is a good SS amp in case my initial comments came across as too "negative." If anything, it's just a testament to how good the lowly hotaudio portable amp is (and how fantastic the Jade is), not really anything negative about the C-2C in itself (other than the preference issue). okay, thanks.


----------



## K3cT

Some portable amps indeed have a sound which can rival their desktop brothers. Pico and SR71A come in mind.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Just to be clear, I see no QC issues on this amp at all. My main issue appears to be one of preference, meaning that I prefer a warmer sound and wasn't expecting the C-2C to be quite this neutral. And I don't have the best dac right now, either, and I have the impression that this amp is more source dependent than many in this range, especially tube amps which seem like they will generally be more forgiving. 

 The compass had a huge following (and probably still does) and this amp is said to be even better. So I just thought I would clarify that I think this is a good SS amp in case my initial comments came across as too "negative." If anything, it's just a testament to how good the lowly hotaudio portable amp is (and how fantastic the Jade is), not really anything negative about the C-2C in itself (other than the preference issue). okay, thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Sometimes it's an acclimation and taste thing. You listen to one for a while, say SS and you go to tubes and you may hear syrupy, slow, noisy, and sloppy. You may hear the SS as Accurate, quiet, detailed, and quick. Then you do it from the Tubes side to the SS, and the SS appears thin, stridant, and boring. Same thing with CANz.


----------



## lag0a

I think its all about synergy with equipment. The C2C definately needs a really good 300 hours or so I say for it to sound about right. Switching from Analysis Plus Silver-Oval In RCAs to Aural Harmony XLRs expanded the soundstage a lot. I use a Twisted Pear Opus DAC that is SS combined with the C2C that is also SS, so I can understand why someone would need the warmth of a tube from a DAC or AMP. Power cables and headphone cables can also change the characteristics of the overall sound I believe. I recently added an Equi=tech Son of Q Jr. balanced power conditioner and it dropped the noise floor in a very dramatic way that now I know what people mean by a noise floor. It makes the images coming out of a lcd monitor softer to the eyes which amazed me. I usually wake up in the morning with my eyes barely able to open, power up my computer, power up my lcd monitor, and when I saw white and the brightness from the monitor my eyes would shy away from it, but now with the monitor connected to the balanced power, I can see white but its like nothing. Its like the same white color but softer without the AC noise added to it. Also the computer fans in my PC case run louder, I don't know if it's because its running more efficient due to balanced power.


----------



## Skylab

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sometimes it's an acclimation and taste thing. You listen to one for a while, say SS and you go to tubes and you may hear syrupy, slow, noisy, and sloppy. You may hear the SS as Accurate, quiet, detailed, and quick. Then you do it from the Tubes side to the SS, and the SS appears thin, stridant, and boring. Same thing with CANz._

 

I think this is spot on. Or looked at another way, it can be a question of whether one is listening for/hearing the relative strengths of one vs the other, as opposed to listening for/hearing the relative weaknesses.


----------



## RatFarm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Skylab* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think this is spot on. Or looked at another way, it can be a question of whether one is listening for/hearing the relative strengths of one vs the other, as opposed to listening for/hearing the relative weaknesses._

 

Very profound statement!


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SPACEACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But recently some of the reviews have been getting worse. Pot problems, leds not working, even a doa machine. It' seems to me maybe Audio-Gd might be overworked and the product is slipping? OR! Audio-Gd is a victim of the FOTM that's just lasted alot longer?
 I don't know but it seems I might be looking for a few other products. I don't want to go down the road of trying to find a better product once again only to find out it's really lacking. $400, S.S no tubes... anymore help???_

 

You know, that's something I've been wondering ever since I engaged in a desktop amp/dac search because the feedback tended to be flaky or is an unanswerable rhetoric. The only problem was that the competition doesn't seem to be any more conclusive either, unless you go for the older establishments. This transpired to be the inherent problem I encountered throughout this entire process regardless of my choice.

 Then it's a question of what type of risks I want to take: 1- Go for the established old offerings, which is safest. 2- Hardly discussed offerings, which is riskiest. 3- Take the middle way, then take whatever appears to offer a good value.

 The way I see it, at under $500 mark something has to give, and an added flavour to the unknowns going the chinese way. The question is whether I can tolerate the weakness to enjoy the upped strength, against the price tag. This is a calculated gamble much like buying a house, while rationalizing what little quantifiable I can find. My heavy-handed questioning in this thread is to gain some understanding of the methodology to deal with the known issues. Plenty of time to wait before it arrives anyway.

 So we'll see how it goes, because this is a roll of a dice in the wild end here and curiosity is killing me. Provided that the volume pot is usable, I'll acclimatize myself to C2C for about half a year before looking up to ~$1000 upward mark. Getting to a staggered upgrade between amp and dac is where I'm headed.


 userlander:

 On a side note - never mind Jade as that's plausible - moving from RM-1 to D10 was obvious to me in clarity even with the stock amp (but it doesn't 'oomph' so you may opine differently). With Denon CDP and 19MK3 on the back end, C2C should have no (or less) excuse to sound similar/same to D10. If the difference isn't obvious after 3 weeks of aging, then naturally I'll be compelled to A-B them through DAC19. If it comes to that. I would've never even contemplated such a scenario previously.

 Now, if only these pandora boxes would get shipped and reach me already! I bet it'll get stuck at the customs as well, curse me.


----------



## jjinh

I'm thinking about getting the c2c to use with an mhdt paradisea. I see twylight in post 407 briefly mentions using the c2c with his mhdt havana. Has anyone else tried the c2c with an mhdt dac?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Please keep in mind that the source of your system can make or break a system. The C-2C scales well with source improvements and will for the most part reward your investment with a clear window onto that source (more or less). What can't be changed is what has been discussed recently, amp voicing and personality. If your a tube guy, your a tube guy but if neutrality is not your preference then look elsewhere.

 Cabling/power quality plays a fairly important role here as well even though such subjects attract some extreme viewpoints for and against such things. A reasonable quality mains/signal cabling package is generally acceptable or good enough IMO. Recording quality is also a major factor...something to keep in mind when evaluating any piece of gear although I'm sure the good lads posting in this thread may already know such things 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 My unit has been a reliable and consistent daily performer for over 7 months now FWIW.

 Peete.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please keep in mind that the source of your system can make or break a system. The C-2C scales well with source improvements and will for the most part reward your investment with a clear window onto that source (more or less). What can't be changed is what has been discussed recently, amp voicing and personality. If your a tube guy, your a tube guy but if neutrality is not your preference then look elsewhere.

 Cabling/power quality plays a fairly important role here as well even though such subjects attract some extreme viewpoints for and against such things. A reasonable quality mains/signal cabling package is generally acceptable or good enough IMO. Recording quality is also a major factor...something to keep in mind when evaluating any piece of gear although I'm sure the good lads posting in this thread may already know such things 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My unit has been a reliable and consistent daily performer for over 7 months now FWIW.

 Peete._

 

I'm trying to find the warmest DAC I can for it, which right now (within my budget) seems to be the V-Dac. Anyone have any other suggestions?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm trying to find the warmest DAC I can for it, which right now (within my budget) seems to be the V-Dac. Anyone have any other suggestions?_

 

I'm not sure trying to find a heavily colored DAC is the best road to take. if you should decide to go with a tube amp and sell the C-2C the DAC may be a really bad fit with your choice of tube amp.

 My advice is buy the best quality DAC new or used your budget can allow for. A Parasound DAC1100 HD is a perfect fit for you IMO but the A-gd DAC19MK3 is also of the same vein as the Parasound.

 This one is a terrific DAC AudiogoN ForSale: Sonic Frontiers sfd 1 mkll if you can stretch your budget a little.

 Another good one AudiogoN ForSale: Monarchy 22

 This guy AudiogoN ForSale: MHDT Paradisea Tube Dac

 Another AudiogoN ForSale: Theta Chroma 396

 Of the ones mentioned try and find the Parasound 1100HD if you can but the SFD -1 MK II is a killer DAC.

 Peete.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure trying to find a heavily colored DAC is the best road to take. if you should decide to go with a tube amp and sell the C-2C the DAC may be a really bad fit with your choice of tube amp.

 My advice is buy the best quality DAC new or used your budget can allow for. A Parasound DAC1100 HD is a perfect fit for you IMO but the A-gd DAC19MK3 is also of the same vein as the Parasound.

 This one is a terrific DAC AudiogoN ForSale: Sonic Frontiers sfd 1 mkll if you can stretch your budget a little.

 Another good one AudiogoN ForSale: Monarchy 22

 This guy AudiogoN ForSale: MHDT Paradisea Tube Dac

 Another AudiogoN ForSale: Theta Chroma 396

 Of the ones mentioned try and find the Parasound 1100HD if you can but the SFD -1 MK II is a killer DAC.

 Peete._

 

Thanks! I hadn't even heard of most of those. cheers


----------



## zmatrix

After reading through all the posts I think I am pretty much decided on getting the c2c/19mk3 combo....now the question is, would you guys recommend that I get the volume knob upgrade or just stay with the old knob?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zmatrix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After reading through all the posts I think I am pretty much decided on getting the c2c/19mk3 combo....now the question is, would you guys recommend that I get the volume knob upgrade or just stay with the old knob?_

 

Definitely upgrade. In it's current mode volume operation the quality of the attenuating resistor is crucial. Not to mention better channel balance and +6dB s/n increase.

 If I may suggest - do also ask for ACSS outputs on 19mk3 and ACSS inputs on C-2C and invest further $15 on ACSS interconnects.


----------



## haloxt

So Kingwa can actually do that? How hard is it to do, I might want to do it on my dac19mk3 to phoenix 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Jodet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zmatrix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_After reading through all the posts I think I am pretty much decided on getting the c2c/19mk3 combo....now the question is, would you guys recommend that I get the volume knob upgrade or just stay with the old knob?_

 

Definately skip the new knob. 

 It's a piece of junk.


----------



## zmatrix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Definitely upgrade. In it's current mode volume operation the quality of the attenuating resistor is crucial. Not to mention better channel balance and +6dB s/n increase.

 If I may suggest - do also ask for ACSS outputs on 19mk3 and ACSS inputs on C-2C and invest further $15 on ACSS interconnects._

 

Thanks. So if I do get the ACSS outputs/inputs, do you know if that would make these two units exclusive to each other - I wont be able to connect the DAC to a different amp or the amp to different DAC?


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zmatrix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks. So if I do get the ACSS outputs/inputs, do you know if that would make these two units exclusive to each other - I wont be able to connect the DAC to a different amp or the amp to different DAC?_

 

Yes, they will be exclusive with each other - throught this (half) ACSS connectors.

 But you will still have a pair of RCA outputs from 19mk3 and RCA or XLR inputs on C-2C for different amp/DAC connectivity.


----------



## Currawong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Definitely upgrade. In it's current mode volume operation the quality of the attenuating resistor is crucial. Not to mention better channel balance and +6dB s/n increase.

 If I may suggest - do also ask for ACSS outputs on 19mk3 and ACSS inputs on C-2C and invest further $15 on ACSS interconnects._

 

I recommend this too. Will save any worry about interconnect quality.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jodet* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Definately skip the new knob. 

 It's a piece of junk._

 

I wouldn't go that far, they just aren't always pleasant to use, even on very expensive amps.


----------



## squall343

Dac 19mk3 + c2c only US$730 on their combo list

ºÎÇì»ªÔ*´´ÒôÏì

 i should have waited


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So Kingwa can actually do that? How hard is it to do, I might want to do it on my dac19mk3 to phoenix 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




._

 

While 19mk3 and C-2C can be paired with ACSS cables, Phoenix and 19mk3 can not.

 How come?

 Thing is, both 19mk3 and C-2C have just 2 channels (L & R) and they both use current mode amplification (ACSS) so they can both be fitted with ACSS connectors. Such implementation would not be a proper balanced ACSS connection because it would use just "half" wires, but since both ends would be "halved" - it would work.

 On the other hand, Phoneix is a proper balanced headamp/preamp with 4 channels (L+, L-, R+ & R-). To use ACSS input with Phoenix you need "full" ACSS link. Bastardised "half" ACSS current feed from 19mk3 would just not do for Phoenix. To drive such a beast directly in current mode you are limited to: DAC-9mk2, Reference Two and Reference One.


----------



## zmatrix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *FauDrei* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, they will be exclusive with each other - throught this (half) ACSS connectors.

 But you will still have a pair of RCA outputs from 19mk3 and RCA or XLR inputs on C-2C for different amp/DAC connectivity._

 

Sweet - just what I wanted to hear. Thanks.


----------



## zmatrix

It seems that if I do get ACSS, then other inputs will not work according to Kingwa's response. Going the ACSS route will render the C2C useless as a standalone unit:

_The DAC19MK3 not need more change can output ACSS, they are design on the PCB.
 But the C2C not design the ACSS on the PCB, so need more change, and cancel the other input._


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *zmatrix* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It seems that if I do get ACSS, then other inputs will not work according to Kingwa's response. Going the ACSS route will render the C2C useless as a standalone unit:

The DAC19MK3 not need more change can output ACSS, they are design on the PCB.
 But the C2C not design the ACSS on the PCB, so need more change, and cancel the other input._

 

Ask for clarification on that. Sometimes the language barrier raises more questions than it answers.

 Peete.


----------



## zmatrix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ask for clarification on that. Sometimes the language barrier raises more questions than it answers.

 Peete._

 

Ok so I asked and he came back with:

_I just find the way can keep XLR and RCA input but add the ACSS input, but need a switch on rear, and around 15 days for order._

 It seems like if I order this, I would be the first one...not sure if that is a good or bad thing lol...


----------



## bryanbhu

Nice custom zmatrix! Bearing in mind though that my unit is being delayed because of 1 extra coax, so you might want to keep a tab on the date or something. If mine is delayed by 20+ days, yours can get delayed by over a month, in theory. Not sure how to deal with it myself, does anybody know? (culturally or by experience)


----------



## lag0a

This is how audio-gd works I think. It is not like your typical order and ship in a week ordeal. I think they get your order then test it for 100 hours or so then ship it when they have the time depending on how busy they are, if there is any holidays ahead, and when do they usually ship large quatities of stuff on a particular date. If you add stuff to your equipment like ACSS input not stated in their product features it will probably take more time if they don't have the components at hand, but I think its well worth it. I like my C2C very much.


----------



## bryanbhu

Yeah, I think a considerable waiting time is to be expected, but I just wasn't sure what is considered a delay and how to deal with it from customer's end. That varies from country to country, culture to culture depending on consumer habits and social dynamics. It's no good if they take it as offensive or rush them into sending something half baked. Mine was supposed to get shipped around 15th, quoting the mod as the cause. The delay itself doesn't bother me that much to be honest, but "not knowing" is scarier.

 Anyway. Mine got shipped today, so the re-quoted date seems to have gone well.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yeah, I think a considerable waiting time is to be expected, but I just wasn't sure what is considered a delay and how to deal with it from customer's end. That varies from country to country, culture to culture depending on consumer habits and social dynamics. It's no good if they take it as offensive or rush them into sending something half baked. Mine was supposed to get shipped around 15th, quoting the mod as the cause. The delay itself doesn't bother me that much to be honest, but "not knowing" is scarier.

 Anyway. Mine got shipped today, so the re-quoted date seems to have gone well._

 


 You might want to reconfirm the order and ship date. Changes from the norm have caused the ball to get dropped on occasion.


----------



## zmatrix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *lag0a* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is how audio-gd works I think. It is not like your typical order and ship in a week ordeal. I think they get your order then test it for 100 hours or so then ship it when they have the time depending on how busy they are, if there is any holidays ahead, and when do they usually ship large quatities of stuff on a particular date. If you add stuff to your equipment like ACSS input not stated in their product features it will probably take more time if they don't have the components at hand, but I think its well worth it. I like my C2C very much._

 

Yeah I spoke to KingWa yesterday just to confirm some details. He did say that he has to make it from scratch. My order goes in today. Hopefully there won't be any delays past the 15 days he quoted. I can't wait


----------



## RatFarm

I recieved my preowned C-2C yesterday. Originally when I emailed Kingwa for pricing he said there was used unit available in the US that was taken back from a customer that thought the volume output was not adequate. It turns out that this unit previously belonged to 'Jodet' (I was told). I thought I would post my initial impressions:

 My current source is a Slim Devices Squeezebox via analog outs into the C-2C and glass optical into a Pioneer Elite SC-25 reciever. My headphones are the AKG K701s. The reason for purchasing the C-2C was that I felt that the headphone output of the Pioneer was inadequate to drive the K701s properly (lack of bass, etc..).

 Let's start with the attenuator. While I agree that it doesn't have the most solid feel of a quality attenuator it doesn't feel quite as bad as I was expecting from reading the forum. There is a fairly solid 'thunk' between steps but there is also a bit of play within each step that makes it feel somehow cheap compared to other attenuators I have used in the past. There is also a scratchy sound emitted thru the headphones when changing between steps. Once you are within the step then it's ok but the transition sounds like a scratchy dried out potentiometer. 

 The sound quality of the C-2C is excellent! It is quick and dynamic with excellent transparency. Mids and highs are very clean with the highs being a bit on the subtle side (a good thing). Although it doesn't solve my 'lack of bass' issue with the K701s it does offer _*deeper*_ bass than the Pioneer. I also hear texture in the bass notes that was MIA before. Apparently there is little hope in getting mid-bass (kick drums, etc.) out of the K701s and I will more than likely sell them off despite my plans to upgrade the source next. The volume knob on the C-2C is in the 3 o'clock position and I use the Squeezebox's built-in digital attenuation for the final 20% of the volume range for normal listening. I know that I am reducing resolution with this method but it is so convenient from across the room. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The chassis build quality is excellent for the price and is quite larger than I thought it would be. I have absolutely no regrets purchasing this amp and I believe it to be a tremendous bargain for the retail price (and even a better bargain for what I got it for!)


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RatFarm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I recieved my preowned C-2C yesterday. Originally when I emailed Kingwa for pricing he said there was used unit available in the US that was taken back from a customer that thought the volume output was not adequate. It turns out that this unit previously belonged to 'Jodet' (I was told). I thought I would post my initial impressions:

 My current source is a Slim Devices Squeezebox via analog outs into the C-2C and glass optical into a Pioneer Elite SC-25 reciever. My headphones are the AKG K701s. The reason for purchasing the C-2C was that I felt that the headphone output of the Pioneer was inadequate to drive the K701s properly (lack of bass, etc..).

 Let's start with the attenuator. While I agree that it doesn't have the most solid feel of a quality attenuator it doesn't feel quite as bad as I was expecting from reading the forum. There is a fairly solid 'thunk' between steps but there is also a bit of play within each step that makes it feel somehow cheap compared to other attenuators I have used in the past. There is also a scratchy sound emitted thru the headphones when changing between steps. Once you are within the step then it's ok but the transition sounds like a scratchy dried out potentiometer. 

 The sound quality of the C-2C is excellent! It is quick and dynamic with excellent transparency. Mids and highs are very clean with the highs being a bit on the subtle side (a good thing). Although it doesn't solve my 'lack of bass' issue with the K701s it does offer *deeper* bass than the Pioneer. I also hear texture in the bass notes that was MIA before. Apparently there is little hope in getting mid-bass (kick drums, etc.) out of the K701s and I will more than likely sell them off despite my plans to upgrade the source next. The volume knob on the C-2C is in the 3 o'clock position and I use the Squeezebox's built-in digital attenuation for the final 20% of the volume range for normal listening. I know that I am reducing resolution with this method but it is so convenient from across the room. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The chassis build quality is excellent for the price and is quite larger than I thought it would be. I have absolutely no regrets purchasing this amp and I believe it to be a tremendous bargain for the retail price (and even a better bargain for what I got it for!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for the impressions. I just ordered a PH100 to test against the C-2C, for what is reported to be the warmer and richer sound of the Shanling. Perhaps that will be at the expense of some detail, but we'll see. I just mention it because supposedly the PH100 pairs very well with the K701s, so I wouldn't give up on those headphones yet if you really like them. It might just be that the clarity and neutrality of the C-2C isn't a good match for them (based on what I've been hearing, I would tend to want to match the C-2C with Senns, like the HD600), or that another source would help. I'm looking at the MF V-Dac to pair with it, but currently those seem to be out of stock everywhere. 

 I listen to C-2C around 12-3 o'clock, too (non-attenuator version), using the computer source as a volume control. For some reason I find it sounds better that way than cranked at the source and with the C-2C set lower, like 9-12, as counterintuitive as that might be. Well, whatever works! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It is a very clear and detailed amp, and very smooth, too. I'd be interested to hear how the soundstage is on the 701s, because that's really another strong point of the C-2C I think.


----------



## RatFarm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks for the impressions. I just ordered a PH100 to test against the C-2C, for what is reported to be the warmer and richer sound of the Shanling. Perhaps that will be at the expense of some detail, but we'll see. I just mention it because supposedly the PH100 pairs very well with the K701s, so I wouldn't give up on those headphones yet if you really like them. It might just be that the clarity and neutrality of the C-2C isn't a good match for them (based on what I've been hearing, I would tend to want to match the C-2C with Senns, like the HD600), or that another source would help. I'm looking at the MF V-Dac to pair with it, but currently those seem to be out of stock everywhere. 

 I listen to C-2C around 12-3 o'clock, too (non-attenuator version), using the computer source as a volume control. For some reason I find it sounds better that way than cranked at the source and with the C-2C set lower, like 9-12, as counterintuitive as that might be. Well, whatever works! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It is a very clear and detailed amp, and very smooth, too. I'd be interested to hear how the soundstage is on the 701s, because that's really another strong point of the C-2C I think._

 

From what I read I bet the PH100 is an excellent match. I'm trying to avoid finding components that specifically complement the K701s compensating for their natural bass shyness as I may want a more neutral component down the road with different headphones. The funny thing is that I get more enjoyment listening to my IPod Classic 120GB with a pair of Senn PX100s than I do from the K701s! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Of course the PX100s don't match the K701s for soundstaging and details but the lack of bass punch with the K701s kills my enjoyment every time I listen. The C-2C is a definate step in the right direction for rejuvinating some of the missing bass but as great as it is it is not enough. BTW: Soundstaging with the C-2C is equally impressive and is definately limited by my source.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RatFarm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From what I read I bet the PH100 is an excellent match. I'm trying to avoid finding components that specifically complement the K701s compensating for their natural bass shyness as I may want a more neutral component down the road with different headphones. The funny thing is that I get more enjoyment listening to my IPod Classic 120GB with a pair of Senn PX100s than I do from the K701s! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*Of course the PX100s don't match the K701s for soundstaging and details but the lack of bass punch with the K701s kills my enjoyment every time I listen.* The C-2C is a definate step in the right direction for rejuvinating some of the missing bass but as great as it is it is not enough. BTW: Soundstaging with the C-2C is equally impressive and is definately limited by my source._

 

Sounds like you might be a good candidate for a nice pair of DT990s.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *RatFarm* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm trying to avoid finding components that specifically complement the K701s compensating for their natural bass shyness as I may want a more neutral component down the road with different headphones._

 

I didn't have time to respond to this last night, and I don't want to derail the thread too much, but since it's come up a couple of times I wanted to say I'm not really convinced that's the best approach. 

 Think about it: what you're really saying is that you're trying to match your components _to headphones that you don't even have yet_ (and might never have) instead of matching them to ones that you DO have. Just like some headphones are generally known to do better when matched with certain genres, it probably makes sense to try to match headphones to particular components, too. After all, if there's a known synergy, you might as well take advantage of it. 

 And in this case it's not like we're talking about astronomical differences, either - both are SS amps. The shanling also is said to do superbly well especially with low impedance phones, so if anything it might even be *more* versatile. I have to say the c-2c is *very* bright with my alessandros! So that is perhaps the entire family of grados on the side of the PH100 right there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or maybe we would be talking about the caliente with hd650s, etc. but it's the same point: might as well try to match components to get the best sound, not compromise your sound based on what you might (or might not) get "down the road." 

 Ultimately perhaps it depends on what your goals are. My POV now is that if I'm into a certain headphone and plan to use it for a while, I want to make sure I'm getting the best sonic match I can with the other components (within my budget 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). It doesn't make sense to me to have to live with a sound I don't like as much just because later I *might* get a different set of headphones and those components *might* sound better with that amp. Because then again, they also might not. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So what you've really done is just compromised in both directions. Better imo to match as best as you can, and then just sell everything if you have to when you get new headphones and build the rig again from scratch. 

 .02


----------



## RatFarm

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I didn't have time to respond to this last night, and I don't want to derail the thread too much, but since it's come up a couple of times I wanted to say I'm not really convinced that's the best approach. 

 Think about it: what you're really saying is that you're trying to match your components to headphones that you don't even have yet (and might never have) instead of matching them to ones that you DO have. Just like some headphones are generally known to do better when matched with certain genres, it probably makes sense to try to match headphones to particular components, too. After all, if there's a known synergy, you might as well take advantage of it. 

 And in this case it's not like we're talking about astronomical differences, either - both are SS amps. The shanling also is said to do superbly well especially with low impedance phones, so if anything it might even be *more* versatile. I have to say the c-2c is *very* bright with my alessandros! So that is perhaps the entire family of grados on the side of the PH100 right there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or maybe we would be talking about the caliente with hd650s, etc. but it's the same point: might as well try to match components to get the best sound, not compromise your sound based on what you might (or might not) get "down the road." 

 Ultimately perhaps it depends on what your goals are. My POV now is that if I'm into a certain headphone and plan to use it for a while, I want to make sure I'm getting the best sonic match I can with the other components (within my budget 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). It doesn't make sense to me to have to live with a sound I don't like as much just because later I *might* get a different set of headphones and those components *might* sound better with that amp. Because then again, they also might not. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So what you've really done is just compromised in both directions. Better imo to match as best as you can, and then just sell everything if you have to when you get new headphones and build the rig again from scratch. 

 .02_

 

You do have a good point my friend. I guess I am leary of 'chasing' the sound I'm after with the K701s with equipment I might not otherwise have purchased. They are steller phones in every other way. Since I have the wonderful C-2C I wrapped the K701s in a towel and stuffed it in a cabinet while playing Patricia Barber's 'Company' on repeat at fairly loud level. Maybe now that I have an amp with substantial power I can try and break in the K701s further. I will take your suggestion and try a DAC or other source component next that is known to be on the warm side of the spectrum before giving up on the K701s.


----------



## bryanbhu

It's all very fascinating. I guess it's down to where your bottleneck is, isn't it. There's an old saying that you're only as strong as your weakest link, so locating that might be half the solution. Or so the old wisdom says.

 Anyway. My units are in the post apparently, and EMS tracking has been stuck in a place called "GUANGZHOU" with a note saying "Dispatch from Sorting Center", since 27th (after going through customs). Not that I take tracking too seriously. But is it meant to be like this? I suspect it'll just arrive unannounced, it usually is with this sort of tracking, but it's tickling my curiosity nonetheless.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It's all very fascinating. I guess it's down to where your bottleneck is, isn't it. There's an old saying that you're only as strong as your weakest link, so locating that might be half the solution. Or so the old wisdom says.

 Anyway. My units are in the post apparently, and EMS tracking has been stuck in a place called "GUANGZHOU" with a note saying "Dispatch from Sorting Center", since 27th (after going through customs). Not that I take tracking too seriously. But is it meant to be like this? I suspect it'll just arrive unannounced, it usually is with this sort of tracking, but it's tickling my curiosity nonetheless._

 

That's normal. 

 Peete.


----------



## bryanbhu

Thanks, I thought so. I reckon EMS don't do the delivery themselves in the western hemisphere. That means most likely ParcelForce handling the delivery in the UK. Even Gods fear their "Handling Charge" over customs, you know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 DHL is probably no better.

 Anyhow, thinking of a small box traveling all the way, the world feels very big all of a sudden. I thought the world was supposed to be very small now?


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, I thought so. I reckon EMS don't do the delivery themselves in the western hemisphere. That means most likely ParcelForce handling the delivery in the UK. Even Gods fear their "Handling Charge" over customs, you know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 DHL is probably no better.

 Anyhow, thinking of a small box traveling all the way, the world feels very big all of a sudden. I thought the world was supposed to be very small now? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

The world seems very small to a Data packet.

 It is still quite large to your average Amplifier.


----------



## bryanbhu

Hehe. True enough. At least it's traveling by air. A heart stopping moment would be if the tracking said in a few weeks time: "Currently sailing by the Cape of Good Hope"


----------



## MomijiTMO

Funnier if it was going past Somalia.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MomijiTMO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Funnier if it was going past Somalia._

 

That would Suck!


----------



## bryanbhu

You two, don't scare me please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In case anyone reading from the UK: After much digging around, it's come to my attention that EMS could potentially spend a couple of weeks before sending the items through customs in the UK, at which point it gets handed to Parcel Force. While Parcel Force isn't directly influenced by the Royal Mail's industrial strike, they share many hubs and depots, apparently. So they can be delayed further. DHL might be a better carrier than EMS at this time as there's a UK branch of DHL, if I'm not mistaken. They have their own sorting hubs and delivery system (correct me if I'm wrong).

 Going via Somalia and getting the item 'returned' to me by the foreign office sounds like an attractive proposition, all of a sudden.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You two, don't scare me please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In case anyone reading from the UK: After much digging around, it's come to my attention that EMS could potentially spend a couple of weeks before sending the items through customs in the UK, at which point it gets handed to Parcel Force. While Parcel Force isn't directly influenced by the Royal Mail's industrial strike, they share many hubs and depots, apparently. So they can be delayed further. DHL might be a better carrier than EMS at this time as there's a UK branch of DHL, if I'm not mistaken. They have their own sorting hubs and delivery system (correct me if I'm wrong).

 Going via Somalia and getting the item 'returned' to me by the foreign office sounds like an attractive proposition, all of a sudden._

 

_Pirates_, don't trust 'em!


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Pirates, don't trust 'em!_

 

Well, my plan was to have my shipment stolen, then retrieved by the foreign office for a quicker delivery than sluggish commercial carriers on a strike 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Jokes aside, mine's still somewhere along the way, not arrived in the country by the looks of it.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Don't worry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 My tracking [EMS Express] didn't actually work until it landed in Brisbane. lol.


----------



## bryanbhu

Yeah I know, most tracking is like that regardless of the carrier - generally tedious and more frustrating than helpful.

 Don't worry, I'm resigned enough to the fact that our planet Earth is still very large and I don't expect this to happen quickly 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It does help to know the precedence, however. This sort of info is generally missing. Once I get mine I'll post the overall timeline so the future buyers from the UK has an idea of how one example goes. Then others would have a frame of reference (as one example, at least).


----------



## bryanbhu

I'm happy to report that I got my 19MK3 and C-2C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Both were in the same box, well packaged. The timing seems alright. I paid in the 1st week of October (did I say 5th? can't remember), sent a reminder around 23rd, had it shipped on the 27th, and tracking looks like this:
  Code:


```
[left]Date Time Location Tracking Event 09-11-2009 11:06 Mitcham Depot Parcel delivered 07-11-2009 01:45 Mitcham Depot Out for delivery 07-11-2009 01:44 Mitcham Depot Arrived at delivery depot 06-11-2009 20:20 National Hub Sorted in hub 06-11-2009 11:25 International Hub En route to delivery depot 06-11-2009 11:19 International Hub Arrived at outward Office of Exchange 04-11-2009 19:07 International Hub AWAITING CUSTOMS CHARGING 04-11-2009 19:07 International Hub Arrived in destination country 04-11-2009 11:52 Heathrow Airport Arrived at destination country 28-10-2009 01:45 Delivery Agent - GUANGZHOU - PTT Left origin country 27-10-2009 17:42 Delivery Agent - CHINA Collected from customer[/left]
```

EMS handled it in China and Parcel Force took over in the UK. I thought customs would apply so I was expecting a "Released with a charge" entry in the tracking followed by a tax letter, but it seems to have fallen through. I hope all of the above gives some ideas to future UK buyers.

 As for the product itself (themselves, I should say), the first impression is nothing but positive. With all the contradictions of recent weeks (looking back the last dozen pages) I was half wondering what sort of over-hyped monstrosity would arrive at my door, but the reality is nothing like that, I'm relieved to say. At this point the bass is a little untidy and the high end has rough edges (reminds me a bit of AD8620 based portables I've come across over the years), straight out of box. The overall signature, I'm enjoying it already. I can understand why some of the past posters have called it something like neutral without losing musicality. I see what they mean and I like it. "A bit tube like" comment, I'm not so sure. It sounds distinctly solid-state to me (which is what I wanted). Only from a couple of tracks of listening, however.





 Sorry it's a bit blurry, but I took it in a hurry under poor lighting then adjusted it. Yeah I know the cabling is a mess there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had trouble there as the power cables I'm using for them are about 15mm thick, extrudes at the back and bent this way and that, shoving everything out of the way. I had to pull out the whole cabinet for now, but I'll come up with a neat solution this week (somehow).

 About the much-talked-about volume pot: Its physical handling is a bit clunky (or clicky, should I say), but again, not the horror story I had expected. The past descriptions we've had here makes it sound really weird, but now they come across a over-attentive (but I have the benefit of the hindsight, I guess). It isn't a problem to me at all.

 As for the volume level issues, I can see that some people in the past had wanted the gain reduced a little. It works for me, but overall it is slightly on the louder end, so if you're a very quiet listener, unadjusted gain will probably cause problems. For 'normal' levels (I use that term loosely) I can't see it being a problem, however.

 It does depend on the source level though, obviously. With Grado, ReplayGain (default 89db) adjusted playback from the PC is just right, but straight from my CDP it comes out a notch louder at the same position. So you have to go down one click or two. This means you will lose that much wiggle room to fine adjust the volume as you're approaching the lower end (9 o'clock and downward).

 So yes, I can see a potential issue arising there without being able to somehow adjust the source level. Generally though, I can't see this being an issue for an average Joe's listening levels (I can't comment on more sensitive phones than Grado). I'll bring in my friends from various background sometime in the future and see if they find it overall too loud, but I can't help but feel that those who find it problematic are going to be just those who have a particularly quiet listening levels. What little worries I might have had are gone, anyhow. If anything, the volume control with HD600 is very, very nice.

 Now I'll sit and listen & enjoy till Christmas


----------



## userlander

Congratulations! Finally. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I totally agree with you that this amp is not tubey sounding at all, but very solid state (in a good way). Wait till it smooths out a little and opens up with break in. The soundstage is nothing short of panoramic. 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bryanbhu* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm happy to report that I got my 19MK3 and C-2C 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Both were in the same box, well packaged. The timing seems alright. I paid in the 1st week of October (did I say 5th? can't remember), sent a reminder around 23rd, had it shipped on the 27th, and tracking looks like this:
  Code:



		Code:
	

[left]Date Time Location Tracking Event 09-11-2009 11:06 Mitcham Depot Parcel delivered 07-11-2009 01:45 Mitcham Depot Out for delivery 07-11-2009 01:44 Mitcham Depot Arrived at delivery depot 06-11-2009 20:20 National Hub Sorted in hub 06-11-2009 11:25 International Hub En route to delivery depot 06-11-2009 11:19 International Hub Arrived at outward Office of Exchange 04-11-2009 19:07 International Hub AWAITING CUSTOMS CHARGING 04-11-2009 19:07 International Hub Arrived in destination country 04-11-2009 11:52 Heathrow Airport Arrived at destination country 28-10-2009 01:45 Delivery Agent - GUANGZHOU - PTT Left origin country 27-10-2009 17:42 Delivery Agent - CHINA Collected from customer[/left]


EMS handled it in China and Parcel Force took over in the UK. I thought customs would apply so I was expecting a "Released with a charge" entry in the tracking followed by a tax letter, but it seems to have fallen through. I hope all of the above gives some ideas to future UK buyers.

 As for the product itself (themselves, I should say), the first impression is nothing but positive. With all the contradictions of recent weeks (looking back the last dozen pages) I was half wondering what sort of over-hyped monstrosity would arrive at my door, but the reality is nothing like that, I'm relieved to say. At this point the bass is a little untidy and the high end has rough edges (reminds me a bit of AD8620 based portables I've come across over the years), straight out of box. The overall signature, I'm enjoying it already. I can understand why some of the past posters have called it something like neutral without losing musicality. I see what they mean and I like it. "A bit tube like" comment, I'm not so sure. It sounds distinctly solid-state to me (which is what I wanted). Only from a couple of tracks of listening, however.





 Sorry it's a bit blurry, but I took it in a hurry under poor lighting then adjusted it. Yeah I know the cabling is a mess there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had trouble there as the power cables I'm using for them are about 15mm thick, extrudes at the back and bent this way and that, shoving everything out of the way. I had to pull out the whole cabinet for now, but I'll come up with a neat solution this week (somehow).

 About the much-talked-about volume pot: Its physical handling is a bit clunky (or clicky, should I say), but again, not the horror story I had expected. The past descriptions we've had here makes it sound really weird, but now they come across a over-attentive (but I have the benefit of the hindsight, I guess). It isn't a problem to me at all.

 As for the volume level issues, I can see that some people in the past had wanted the gain reduced a little. It works for me, but overall it is slightly on the louder end, so if you're a very quiet listener, unadjusted gain will probably cause problems. For 'normal' levels (I use that term loosely) I can't see it being a problem, however.

 It does depend on the source level though, obviously. With Grado, ReplayGain (default 89db) adjusted playback from the PC is just right, but straight from my CDP it comes out a notch louder at the same position. So you have to go down one click or two. This means you will lose that much wiggle room to fine adjust the volume as you're approaching the lower end (9 o'clock and downward).

 So yes, I can see a potential issue arising there without being able to somehow adjust the source level. Generally though, I can't see this being an issue for an average Joe's listening levels (I can't comment on more sensitive phones than Grado). I'll bring in my friends from various background sometime in the future and see if they find it overall too loud, but I can't help but feel that those who find it problematic are going to be just those who have a particularly quiet listening levels. What little worries I might have had are gone, anyhow. If anything, the volume control with HD600 is very, very nice.

 Now I'll sit and listen & enjoy till Christmas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Congrats on the delivery ! The two look very good together 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It'll open up and become much more controlled on the bottom end with the treble smoothing out completely. On average the burn in time for both is around 400 hours or so judging by others and my own experience (with the C-2C for me). Between today and 72 hours from now (if you run a signal through them for all of that time) you should notice a fair amount of positive changes vs your first listen.

 I look forward to more of your impressions bryanbhu. I also have an upgraded C-2C that could use a better source so your comments on the pairing are invaluable and are level headed, well thought out. Thanks for the insight !

 Peete.


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wait till it smooths out a little and opens up with break in. The soundstage is nothing short of panoramic._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It'll open up and become much more controlled on the bottom end with the treble smoothing out completely._

 

It feels like it's gotten worse. It feels like the upper mids to top notes dimmed, like perceiving less width 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 At any rate I sounds more 'jammy' than last night. I'll leave them alone for now.


----------



## MadMan007

My Compass took a good long time to fill out, at one point after at least 7 days there was at least a 10 to 15 hour window when it was distant and boring with less detail, then what I tought were L-R level fluctuations, then vocals became oddly distant and echo-y. This was sampling it during that time not constant listening and I didn't have expectations for certain things to happen so they clearly stood out. So, give it a good deal more time, definitely more than a day or two.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Hooray, glad to see the pair. Do need some nicer photos though xD. Keep on listening for a while for your ears to adjust and/or burn in effects or whatever. Then make a decision. Nothing worse than a few hours of listening to 1 genre to make a verdict.

 Also glad to read your opinion on the volume pot.


----------



## bryanbhu

Yeah of course I'll give it time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Realistically I'd reckon a month is fair. I was expecting this sort of phase where an equipment misbehaves, and I still am, it's just that it's more abrupt and pronounced than I'm accustomed to. So I'm more perplexed. Not annoyed. I'm looking forward to the next 4 weeks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Ironically I actually liked it when it was straight out of the box. It's been running for about 31 hours now and this evening it's been wonky. Funny that isn't it. I thought my mind was playing tricks when I returned from work, but I returned a few times, and even now it's not right. I'm sure the change is real. I'm burning in 2 new units in a single chain, at the same time, so maybe the volatility is not so straight forward.

 The fun factor was there on arrival, it did it before so I can't see why it wouldn't do so again when it settles. An interesting experience anyway.


----------



## bryanbhu

The strange symptoms - the overall dim playback from the 2nd day - persisted for about a week after that, till I began to think there may be something wrong with it. I turned it off for about a day and half and restarted, and it's been gone since. I might have had a freak incident or something, as it was drastic enough that I got a bit worried. If it happens to you too and it persists, try give it some rest and see.

 The irony of my first impression is that I liked it because of the overall rough delivery, though it was only a few tracks of pop I listened to. As it matured, the details emerged and the presentation became more conservative. I like it in a different way now, strangely enough. I just thought I would point out that the first impression may be misleading, for the better or worse.

 Anyway, I think it's a good time to share views again, now that my Audio-gd C2C + 19MK3 has gone over 450 mark and I have been listening intently. It has settled down, from what I can hear and at fundamental level my views have been forming consistently. I've mostly used HD600, and occasionally HF2. Transport is either from DCD-920 CDP for redbook or PC for flac through coax and I settled on Blue Jeans and custom heavy duty power cords from a trusted DIYer.

 Throughout this week, the same thought came back again and again: a very, very fickle system, this is. It's so choosy in the quality of the recording.

 One of the biggest reasons why I insisted on going to live classical concerts/recitals is the "rasp" of classical instruments, especially in strings and woodwinds. I'm not talking about its actual audible presence, but rather the quality and exact nuance of it. In live, class performers control this to express themselves, to the point that you begin to recognize it to be of a certain performer, without relying on the style of play. It's hard to put it into words, but I'm sure the like minded will understand when I say that "there is a certain rasp to it" in live performance. I get all tingly inside, blurry in the eye and wobbly in the leg when I hear this from a masterful handling of an instrument.

 What amazes me is that this is recreated very well with C-2C + 19MK3. I've heard some speaker setups do this to a varying degree, so I expected it to an extent, but I didn't think $380 would do it this good. So much so that I'm already wondering what Pheonix could do if this measly C-2C can do it. It's ironic that it forces me to think about that purely because it performs. Because I deliberately spent sparingly in this round, I keep thinking, maybe I should've gone straight up? An evil, evil thought!

 I also kept thinking the positioning and soundstaging is great in delivering separation, but I think the accurate delivery of the instruments' subtle texture has a lot to do with this. Some segments where I'm used to hearing a solo violin disappear behind a penetrating passage of an oboe, for instance, there is a clear presence and spacing for both. I kept wondering how the bloody hell it manages this when the solo violin is clearly too quiet to achieve this effect, but there it is. It's almost like C-2C puts a hand around the dying flame and rekindles it back into fire amidst the storm. Whatever Audio-gd has done to it, they've done it well. Again, I can't help thinking Pheonix must be earth shattering, if I were to take the relative markup at face value...

 This system's weakness is that its neutrality can at times manifest itself as a 'characterlessness' in a genre which cares less for the details (and hence the nuance). When I listen to the mainstream pop, for instance, I already need to be in the mood. If I need it to shape my mood instead, it comes across very shy. It's also because, with this sort of genre, I "ride" them instead of "listen" to them, meaning, the overall presentation outweighs the details in my sense of fulfillment. Take this how you will, as its conservatism is a double-edged sword. I've had plenty of portables which "cheat" with a sort of false dynamism and skimming over detail, and manages to be really fun. For me, in this regard, I feel that the money is spent on the "correct part" of music with this setup, but in other ways I can argue that why spend all this when you can get a more exuberant presentation cheaper, even with less detail. I listen to all sorts, so I can kind of take it both ways, theoretically speaking. I guess it's a question of how much value you give to the delivery of this finely nuanced expression in some genres. It just works out very well for me.

 There is also a very thin "membrane" of warmth - if I could call it that - which blankets over the presentation. At times it's cosy, at times I can do without it, other times it's too slight to notice as I get engulfed in music. With chamber music I think it helps, while with brass I might prefer without it, but generally it's too small an effect to topple me in either direction.

 The trouble is that all this performance seems to be completely dependent on the quality of the source, or in this case, the recording. I knew full well of the recording issues before, but never to this extent. Many of the hundreds of recordings I own are 10 years old or more, and I have to say I have much more respect for the well acknowledged labels. The classical music market is cluttered with cheapo brands. Experimentally, it appears that the relative quality of budget labels have increased over the last decade; the ones from the 90s are more obvious. A flamboyant tampering by mastering filters as well, they get on my nerves more with this system. With bad recordings, frankly I might as well be listening to iPod and I could hardly tell the difference. It could feel worse, even, because you'd be comparing it to the good ones you've just heard. At any rate, the ability of the recording to preserve details seems to directly translate into the system's performance. This experience isn't new for me even with the likes of iBasso, RS or GoVibe - all of which I hold in high regards - but it's considerably more drastic with this setup, so that's a word of caution if you're looking to invest in this setup.

 Still, get it right and it's marvelous. Listening to a violin concerto by the likes of Perlman or Kremer, whose nuance I favour particularly, and as his rustic timbre comes through C2C with such realism, I find myself becoming tearful and nodding with my arm crossed: _"Yes... yes YES I know! That's how I feel too!!"_. I think I look like a complete and utter idiot listening to this setup. Good thing this room has no mirrors.

 This marks the end of a chapter, in some ways. It's been an interesting journey. What do I think about all these weeks, starting from about 2 months ago, I ask myself. First, the gain issue is real, but I think a minor issue to most 'average' listeners, but get it reduced if you'll be using a sensitive headphone and if you're worried. Second, its character (or the lack of) combined with its strength in detail which emerges with the source can result in mixed feelings. I would compare it to an old, very full-bodied red wine, in a sense that its full strength emerges only with a good meal. Third, the attenuated volume pot has an unavoidable popping which I can do without.

 On the whole, though, its strengths far outweigh weaknesses to me and I'm definitely keeping this. I'm enjoying it so much and over 3 weeks, it has ended up going beyond my expectation. It's no joke that the depth in detail emerges with a burn-in. I just wish some of the recordings I have liked in the past - because of their style of play - were better recorded. Having C-2C rub that onto me has not been a pleasure. I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but by the same token, some recordings, which I used to find a little bland in style, turned out to be excellent and have a very deep, subtle nuance which I'm enjoying now; something which had been locked up in these recordings for over a decade and I wasn't taking an advantage of them. That's tragic.

 So, it's not an amp that's straight forward or obvious. But it is a very, very rewarding one at that when you work with it, particularly with a very highly nuanced genre. I wish I paid a bit more attention to the way it evolved over November. I spent this week testing it intensely, but before that, I only heard bits and bobs for a short while, mostly because I've actually been busy :/ I was thinking, perhaps I'll make a move to the next tier at the turn of the year, but I'll happily wait till the spring or possibly longer. I want to try everything with it before I move up. It's a system which makes me want to do that for some reason. Thinking about it, I might actually end up becoming as fickle myself.

 And as the realization dawns upon me of just how capable this measly system is, so high above in the sky circles the evil, lingering thought like a vulture: What can Pheonix + ref 1 fully balanced do, if Audio-gd has the balls to put this much gap in the price between them...?!

 Arrgg %*J@&^£#...!!


----------



## tim3320070

I caved in a while ago. I haven't though of an upgrade in the DAC/Amp department once (headphones is a different story). I had the C2C and liked it a lot. The Phoenix is definitely better (more refined, more air and 3D effect) but not wildly better- I think the majority of the excellent sound I get it from the Ref-1.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

An excellent and very enjoyable dissertation to read bryan 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for taking the time man !!!

 The one obvious drawback to any gear that reveals all that is on the source file/material/media is the one you've so eloquently pointed out...the fact that recording quality is wildly all over the map. That is the trade off we all have to live with once you start getting into gear that is neutral and transparent and for better or worse exposes everything upstream from that gear. You may be able to mitigate these effects with source choices and cabling experiments but there is only so much you can do for a bad recording and remain true to your design philosophy (gear wise). The C-2C and the 19MK III really respond to different cabling combination's (as well as source quality ). In my opinion the transport is as important as the DAC choice is.

 A number of us here already have made that major leap up the chain and in all respects that matter, the leap is large over the C-2C/DAC19MKIII but as Tim rightly points out source makes or breaks what the amp has to amplify. So it should be IMO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The balanced system suffers from the same fault as the lesser system does, it's dependent on recording quality although I find with the right combination of cables/transport the really bad experiences are few and far between (in my ref system at least). The top flight recordings are nothing short of magical however and that is worth everything to me.....it's really tough to take a deliberate step backwards once exposed to such and therein lies the dilemma.

 Peete.


----------



## userlander

Great review, bryanbhu! I think you couldn't be more right about the source/recording being especially important with the C-2C. This amp loves and really rewards well-recorded material.

 I liked how you described this:

  Quote:


 This system's weakness is that its neutrality can at times manifest itself as a 'characterlessness' in a genre which cares less for the details (and hence the nuance). When I listen to the mainstream pop, for instance, I already need to be in the mood. If I need it to shape my mood instead, it comes across very shy. It's also because, with this sort of genre, I "ride" them instead of "listen" to them, meaning, the overall presentation outweighs the details in my sense of fulfillment. Take this how you will, as its conservatism is a double-edged sword. I've had plenty of portables which "cheat" with a sort of false dynamism and skimming over detail, and manages to be really fun. For me, in this regard, I feel that the money is spent on the "correct part" of music with this setup, but in other ways I can argue that why spend all this when you can get a more exuberant presentation cheaper, even with less detail. I listen to all sorts, so I can kind of take it both ways, theoretically speaking. I guess it's a question of how much value you give to the delivery of this finely nuanced expression in some genres. 
 

What I've found, however (or seem to notice) is that by listening more exclusively to the C-2C rather than alternating with a more "falsely dynamic" amp (as you put it), the C-2C starts to grow on you more and come more alive as your ears adjust to it without comparison to that other reference. I think, in fact, this kind of "lack of exuberance" you refer to is actually a kind of illusion of the C-2C as much as the false dynamism is with other amps, only kind of in reverse. It's almost like the exuberance is "masked" by the neutrality and openness of the presentation (a kind of "hidden in plain view" type of thing, if that makes sense), but over time you start to realize that it's there, but just not as distinctly obvious as with more agressive amps. At that point, the false dynamism of lesser amps loses its appeal, and you realize how much you're missing without having the C-2C detail.

 I find the same kind of phenomenon with the bass, too. At first I thought the C-2C had less bass than some other amps I was trying. But then when I compared them while listening specifically to that aspect, I realized that the C-2C had much more than I had been characterizing it to myself. It just sounded like less because it was more "polite" or something (is the word I think is sometimes used). But it's in there! You just have to adjust your ears to the presentation.

 Anyway, thought I would just add a few further comments myself to your perceptive and well-stated observations. I am really enjoying this amp esp. with the dac upgrade. The portable I was using was just not doing the C-2C justice, but now as a nice mid-fi system, I am really satisfied with this combo.


----------



## RipcordAFF

I am considering the C2C and trying to decide between it and a M3 with sigma11 PSU. Any thoughts?

 But i have a question about the infamous volume attenuator. Often people will walk into my office and i just grab the volume dial and dial it down fast. is that even possible with this stepped one or do you kind of have to go one by one. in other words when you turn it is it *click**click**click* or *Chunk**Chunk**Chunk*

 Thanks!


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## tim3320070

It takes longer to dial down the volume for sure.


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## bryanbhu

Yes the clunk clunk clunk is the volume pot, but when I first got it I rotated it 3 or 4 dozen times and also over the weeks it softened up somewhat. The dial isn't exactly "tough" as such once you are gripping it, so the speed to bring it down is probably not the problem. If you are in an office, maybe the clicking noise while dialing might matter more? I don't know.
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tim3320070* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I caved in a while ago. I haven't though of an upgrade in the DAC/Amp department once (headphones is a different story)._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A number of us here already have made that major leap up the chain and in all respects that matter, the leap is large over the C-2C/DAC19MKIII_

 

I've been trying to forget about the next tier. You guys aren't helping...! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes I agree the good recordings has a magical quality to them, it already is sufficiently so with C-2C + 19MK3, far more than I could've asked for it. Obviously you must be describing something that goes beyond that, which deepens my curiosity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My problem is just that I deliberately didn't spend to my maximum capability, but took this "intermediate" step knowing that it'll just be a stepping stone. That's probably not a very good frame of mind to be in...! The truth is that I didn't expect this level of performance from this combo. I've been bugging around with D10 opamps for a few months for portable purposes, but since this week I started listening to C-2C in earnest, the thought of it has gone completely out of the window. I think my frame of reference has changed already, in a sense that my expectation of performance in detail has shot up off the charts; or more to the point, perhaps the way in which I judge an amp may have changed. Scary stuff.


----------



## bryanbhu

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think, in fact, this kind of "lack of exuberance" you refer to is actually a kind of illusion of the C-2C as much as the false dynamism is with other amps, only kind of in reverse. It's almost like the exuberance is "masked" by the neutrality and openness of the presentation (a kind of "hidden in plain view" type of thing, if that makes sense), but over time you start to realize that it's there, but just not as distinctly obvious as with more agressive amps. At that point, the false dynamism of lesser amps loses its appeal, and you realize how much you're missing without having the C-2C detail._

 

Yes, I think I understand. It's something I've been feeling - basically the overall presentation is a relative frame of reference, while detail is an absolute frame of reference. As your judgement of an amp (or a piece) shifts from presentation-bias to detail-bias, the detail becomes irreplaceable while the presentation is replaceable (by another form of presentation). In short, you can't get used to the change (decrease) in detail, but you can get used to a different overall delivery. So if asked which you would sacrifice, you'd keep the detail and sacrifice the presentation, and not the other way around. Obviously the two are intertwined, but if I were to describe the subconscious decisions I might be making in the back of my mind, that'd probably be how it goes.

 It is kind of like my listening to live concerts vs portable amp/dac listening, in that the quality of live instruments is irreplaceable by a portable system, although sometimes the fact that you can crank up the volume with portables is very useful (which I obviously can't do with live events). If I had to pick 1, I'd have picked live, because the detail is irreplaceable.

 As far as C-2C goes, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy it 90% of the time with anything so long as it's recorded well. Even with the modern genre, especially the acoustic material is incredible. Guitar + vocal, for instance. It's just that the other day I pulled out the old nostalgic Technotronic CD (yeah, laugh at me! laugh!) and I couldn't "ride" it with C-2C. It happens with some stuff from time to time. I'll report back again on this subject, as I might go through what you went through.

 EDIT: When I talked about "sacrifice" in the first paragraph, I didn't mean to imply that one is better than the other. It sounds like that as the term "sacrifice" implies giving up something good to take something bad. Not intended, just a poor phraseology on my part.


----------



## scootermafia

What can Ref1 and Phoenix do? Take your ears on a classy date then make love to them by the fireplace.


----------



## RatFarm

Ok, it's getting hot in here.


----------



## tim3320070

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *scootermafia* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What can Ref1 and Phoenix do? Take your ears on a classy date then make love to them by the fireplace._

 

More than I needed to hear (pun intended).


----------



## bryanbhu

In relation to my previous comment about catching details clearly with highly articulated genre and hardly any with the others, I've been doing some experiments. I just wanted to know if I can really appreciate modern genre as much. So I sat and actually made a concious decision to "listen" rather than "ride" them. A quick test became more serious as the pattern emerged and I ended up spending many hours, spread over half a day.

 All I had to know was to make sure of whether or not I was hearing any difference in modern genre, beyond "Yes, it kind of sounds better" level which can just be a random effect or placebo. So there were few ways of doing this, but I just randomized a mixture of FLAC and 320kbps MP3 of the same tracks, at first 9 tracks of each (18 together) from various pop and rock genre, completely out of blue. I later doubled that number. I repeated it over a few dozen times, spread over afternoon to tonight. You might think that's stupid as it's somewhat irrelevant to the whole question surrounding genres, but I've always been more or less a non-believer beyond the "reasonable level" of scientific explanation (I fall into the "I remain open minded, but don't believe in the crazy end of audiophile spectrum" category if I say so myself), so it was a bit of a joke. I usually can't tell, or at least I believed I can't, between FLAC and 320kbps in modern (not-highly nuanced) genre. My thinking was, if I get consistent results to the affirmitive, I could perhaps test further to see if it's because of this system (the possibility of such I didn't even contemplate at first).

 The result has been conclusive enough to raise questions for me. With a 30-second listening each before moving on to the next random track, I got about half right, so that's totally random as far as I'm concerned. But with 3-minute listening, I only got 2 wrong out of the whole time...!? That's out of perhaps 100 tracks total, maybe a bit less, but still a lot, relative to 2 incorrect guesses. This (prematurely, for my liking) indicates that I'm telling apart FLAC and 320kbps without a fluke. I'll repeat it again in a few days, I still don't believe this. Is lossless vs 320kbps meant to be this obvious with a modern genre? With classical it's usually easier as the aforementioned "rasp" quality is drastic enough with some instruments to be a give away; I just imagine the real instruments and contrast it to what I'm hearing through the headphone. With a modern instrumentation and arrangement I was never able to find any cue to pull off this outcome with any equipment I've owned in the past decade. I'm still not sure what I'm looking for with the likes of Pop, but I think I'm catching this with a smudge during a glissando and/or momental trills, and other times a vocal's legato over a busy accompaniment. That's my current reaction anyway. Again, a lot of uncertainties there so I'd dare not be sure at this stage.

 I'm remaining calm, anyhow, if a little strained. It's disturbing, to be honest. I'll just give myself a good rest tonight and tomorrow I'll be fairly busy. I'll get to try it again in earnest next week, next time in a much more controlled manner.

 What started as a jokey experiment yielded a result which I find hard to believe right now. It might just be a freak moment, but ... well I won't speculate at this point. I'm either having a freak day or, dare I say, a profound realization of a sort. This post has no real point, but I just wanted to throw this in here, in case any of you want to comment. Have any of you experienced this transition? What experiment did you do, or what cue did you use to differentiate? Or is it meant to be this clear, and I just didn't bother realizing this? Is this just normal and that I've just been too much of an "unbeliever" to notice? It might just be that I've never sat down with an amp that delivers enough detail to make this differentiation, but even then, this goes against my firm held belief that audiophilia has a strong cult-placebo element beyond a certain point. Sorry for all the questions and I intend no offense (if any taken), but I want some third person perspective here from various background, if possible. Maybe I'm just tired, I've had a lot of information overload this week perhaps (through my ears, that is).


----------



## userlander

I'm not surprised by your findings at all. The tell-tale sign of lower bitrate for me is a kind of compression (no pun intended) of especially the upper midrange and highs, most evident I find usually on the attack. Since the C2C excels at an open, detailed sound, it stands to reason that it would be easier to detect even subtle differences, like between lossless and 320.


----------



## Adamora

I've been using this amp for 4 month's, its been great since ive gotten it, but today, while listening, an insanely loud pop erupted from my headphones, scaring the living daylights out of me T_T, after testing everything out to see if anything got fried, i put my headphones back on and played some music, the difference in sound quality was so drastic its unbelievable, i didn't know there was so much detail in the song's i played, what the heck happened ._.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Adamora* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been using this amp for 4 month's, its been great since ive gotten it, but today, while listening, an insanely loud pop erupted from my headphones, scaring the living daylights out of me T_T, after testing everything out to see if anything got fried, i put my headphones back on and played some music, the difference in sound quality was so drastic its unbelievable, i didn't know there was so much detail in the song's i played, what the heck happened ._._

 

Blew the wax out of your ears?


----------



## Adamora

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Blew the wax out of your ears?_

 

I take care of my ears


----------



## MomijiTMO

Lol

 lol

 lol

 and lol.

 Les I'm going with your wax theory.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MomijiTMO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Lol

 lol

 lol

 and lol.

 Les I'm going with your wax theory._

 

Best I could come up with on such short notice...


----------



## Adamora

Evil people ;-;!


----------



## haloxt

How loud was the pop? Also can you try to see if it is your headphones that changed or something else in your setup? If headphones maybe the loud pop was good exercise for the driver 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Adamora

Well, the loudness of the pop...imagine yourself listening at your usual volume, the pop was 50-75% louder than normal listening level's.

 my headphone's had fallen to the ground a few days back, did that do the trick ._.


----------



## haloxt

You could try plugging the headphones into something else and seeing if you still notice that change in sound quality. Or try another headphones in the rest of your setup and see if you can single out what gear was altered. I don't think anyone else experienced such a pop though, so maybe you are just imagining it. But if your ears are telling the truth it'd be nice to know what did change 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* 
_Hello,

 I'm experiencing very loud intermittent clipping ('pop' sound) when turning the volume knob on my upgraded C-2C, both with music playing and without.

 I received my C-2C in mid-July and used it then with my HD650 (300 Ohm impedance, 103dB/mW sensitivity). I can't recall if I had this problem then. However, since pairing the amp with my AD2000 (40 Ohm impedance, 102dB/mW), the problem has become more distinct.

 I emailed Kingwa, and this was his reply:

  Quote:


 Dear Low,
 C2C upgrade version apply the 23 steps switch for volume control, while turn the switch, it will bread the current switch then close the new switch, that time will has a "click" sound from headphone, but I test by Denon D5K and HD650, these "click" sound not loud , I can clear to hear the "click" but can not let me scare.
 If your C2C "click" is loud to scare you, I think maybe either this reason, 1, input signal has high DC offset. 2, or your headphone very high sensitive, 3, or the 23 switch fault, 4, turn the volume too slow at every steps.
 If you have any problems, let me know please.
 Kingwa 
 

1) I currently have my C-2C paired with the Zero DAC. I tried running the C-2C straight out of my iMac, and while the clicking noise was audible enough (not soft; moderate volume), it was not nearly as loud as when paired with the Zero, which could produce a loud 'pop' noise. However, I'd add that the input signal from the Zero is much higher than that of the iMac (ie. I have to turn the volume knob higher when running out of the iMac to get the same volume).
 2) I doubt this is the reason, as the AD2000 has a lower sensitivity than the HD650.
 3) Not sure.
 4) Doubt so. The clipping occurs regardless of the speed at which the volume knob is turned.

 I'm guessing (1) is the most plausible reason, but I thought I'd check if anyone else is experiencing the same issue? Have my headphones been damaged in anyway? They still sound okay to me, for now. If it is my Zero, does it mean it's faulty? What exactly is/causes high DC offset anyway?

 Thanks._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Adamora* 
_I've been using this amp for 4 month's, its been great since ive gotten it, but today, while listening, an insanely loud pop erupted from my headphones, scaring the living daylights out of me T_T, after testing everything out to see if anything got fried, i put my headphones back on and played some music, the difference in sound quality was so drastic its unbelievable, i didn't know there was so much detail in the song's i played, what the heck happened ._._

 

For the record, I had my C-2C sent to Kingwa, and [size=small]it turned out that the volume pot was in fact faulty[/size]. He's had it fixed, and shipped back to me. I'm still waiting for it to arrive. He's also agreed to cover the shipping cost, so you can trust him to take care of you.

 I also requested that he increase the number of steps between 9.30-11 o'clock (my normal listening volume), because the range previously was a little small with my AD2000.

 And at the risk of undermining any credibility I have, I made the same observation that Adamora did: that the sound quality of my phones improved with the pops and clipping.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And at the risk of undermining any credibility I have, I made the same observation that Adamora did: that the sound quality of my phones improved with the pops and clipping._

 

sheesh, burn-in is always debated, but this is getting ridiculous. You guys actually heard loud pops, and then the SQ improved dramatically? What could possibly account for such a thing? Doesn't Kingwa test these himself for at least 100 hrs. before sending them out? 

 (Adamora: it's not really clear if you're saying the sound got better or worse, but I'm assuming better. Also, were you using those same headphones before you got the C-2C? Maybe there was a problem with them.) 

 It just seems unlikely that the amps would be designed with a component that once it blew, the amp sounded better! If there is such a component in the C2C, please tell me so I can remove it ASAP!


----------



## shampoosuicide

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_sheesh, burn-in is always debated, but this is getting ridiculous. You guys actually heard loud pops, and then the SQ improved dramatically? What could possibly account for such a thing? Doesn't Kingwa test these himself for at least 100 hrs. before sending them out? 

 (Adamora: it's not really clear if you're saying the sound got better or worse, but I'm assuming better. Also, were you using those same headphones before you got the C-2C? Maybe there was a problem with them.) 

 It just seems unlikely that the amps would be designed with a component that once it blew, the amp sounded better! If there is such a component in the C2C, please tell me so I can remove it ASAP! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You sound sceptical, so let me make it clear:

 1) I heard loud clipping and popping on my amp. This is absolutely true, and I imagine Kingwa heard the same when I returned it to him.
 2) I noticed a change in the sound, in terms of an improvement in detail. It was not dramatic, but certainly noticeable, and not as immediate as the change Adamora experienced.
 3) I don't know how the clipping/popping affected the headphones or the amp - and I don't think any of us can account for this either - but I don't think it's beyond reason to suggest that such loud clipping/popping, especially over time (for me), could have had some impact on the headphones/amplifier.
 4) I made this observation independently, as did Adamora. As far as I can tell, we're the only two people who have experienced this loud popping, and have both made the same observation. Unless someone else - such as yourself, perhaps? - has experienced the popping with a different observation, then I don't think anyone should be so quick to undermine our observation.
 5) It might be placebo/perception effect, and I don't rule out this possibility. But both me and Adamora have the made the same observation, and if it was placebo, it would seem counter-intuitive to suggest that the loud popping improved the sound, when it would seem more likely that it would have been adversely affected.
 6) It doesn't actually benefit me or make me look good to suggest that I heard such a change, but seeing as Adamora made the same observation, I felt I should chime in.

 I've said my piece, and I don't see the point in debating this further, since I doubt we'll reach a conclusion.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You sound sceptical, so let me make it clear:

 1) I heard loud clipping and popping on my amp. This is absolutely true, and I imagine Kingwa heard the same when I returned it to him.
 2) I noticed a change in the sound, in terms of an improvement in detail. It was not dramatic, but certainly noticeable, and not as immediate as the change Adamora experienced.
 3) I don't know how the clipping/popping affected the headphones or the amp - and I don't think any of us can account for this either - but I don't think it's beyond reason to suggest that such loud clipping/popping, especially over time (for me), could have had some impact on the headphones/amplifier.
 4) I made this observation independently, as did Adamora. As far as I can tell, we're the only two people who have experienced this loud popping, and have both made the same observation. Unless someone else - such as yourself, perhaps? - has experienced the popping with a different observation, I don't see how you're in much of a place to dispute this.
 5) It might be placebo/perception effect, and I don't rule out this possibility. All I know is I made this observation, as has Adamora, and that if it was placebo, it would seem counter-intuitive to suggest that the loud popping improved the sound, when it would seem more likely that it would have been adversely affected.
 6) It doesn't actually benefit me or make me look good to suggest that I heard such a change, but seeing as Adamora made the same observation, I felt I should chime in.

 I've said my piece, and I don't see the point in debating this further, since I doubt we'll reach a conclusion._

 

I'm not a fan of those attenuators. 

 Most of these are supposed to "make before break" connections before switching. This helps keep them quiet. Perhaps these few weren't working in that fashion. Also, perhaps the switches were not switching in fully. The C-2C I had experience with would occasionally not switch in fully if the switch was turned slowly. This would make dull lifeless sound.

 I can see a situation where you were partially switched and then at some point the switch fell into place properly and the sound snapped into focus and clarity. Possibly due to the component heating up and the switch shifting suddenly into correct position. A WAG I must admit.

 2 Obsrvations:

 1) I don't care for those attenuators
 2) Maybe it wasn't ear wax after all!


----------



## Adamora

You've been a great help shampoosuicide, ill have a word with kingwa about this issue, while turning the volume knob my clicks/pop's arent quite that loud but are apparent, hopefully i can have the normal knob installed in the process


----------



## userlander

Was this amp a "flavor of the month?" I find it hard to believe because it's such a great sounding amp, way above its price point. I can't sell my used in near perfect shape. Do you guys think $295 is too much to ask for the standard C-2C? $30 off with probably lower shipping seemed like a good deal to me - no?


----------



## haloxt

People buying used want a really good deal, meaning you take a big loss.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Was this amp a "flavor of the month?" I find it hard to believe because it's such a great sounding amp, way above its price point. I can't sell my used in near perfect shape. Do you guys think $295 is too much to ask for the standard C-2C? $30 off with probably lower shipping seemed like a good deal to me - no?_

 

Audio GD is like the FOTM company.

 The first buyer gets hit with a big loss and from there the losses are small. I think most people would rather pay a bit more for a new amp so normally a 20% discount will get people interested. Even then, I have this $100 rule where I would rather pay up to $100 more for a new one. Of course that doesn't apply for items under $200.


----------



## haloxt

flavor of the month
 –noun
 Informal. the subject of intense, usually temporary interest; the current fashion.


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *haloxt* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_People buying used want a really good deal, meaning you take a big loss._

 

Seems like this forum is strongly biased against sellers, who just want to get a *fair* deal. 

 The way merchants are often hyped here, you'd think if anything the bias would be in the opposite direction, giving people more incentive to buy their products because they know they would at least get a fair price selling it again. But what do I know.


----------



## AmanGeorge

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *userlander* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Seems like this forum is strongly biased against sellers, who just want to get a *fair* deal. _

 

This might help


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AmanGeorge* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This might help_

 


 Thanks for the "economics" lesson, but supply and demand doesn't really apply here in that way. If someone wants a C-2C, supply isn't the issue. They can get one new for $335 plus shipping, or they can get one used for $30 less with probably lower shipping and have it be a known-working unit with no issues. The "supply" doesn't really have anything to do with the used price. It's not like there's a huge supply of used C-2Cs out there for $100 less than new. If there were, your idea might have some merit. I think it's just a forum bias that has failed to take important things into consideration, like the fact of getting a known working unit, lower shipping rates, maybe faster delivery, etc. like I mentioned. But thanks anyway.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Yeah well I have a good friend who takes your view and he just doesn't understand why I just heavily discount my used goods to get a fast sale. His takes weeks and most of the time he has to discount it to a bit above my 'levels'. Keep your current pricing and someone with the same viewpoint could buy it. However, I'm sure the vast majority of people share my thoughts but seeing just how many people visit this site, you should be able to sell it for that price. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for the $100 thing, well that's just _my thing/theory/weirdness_. I know blokes who always buy used to save $50 or so and after several purchases it adds up to a lot. I still think getting 80% back is a great sale though...


----------



## Currawong

You'd hope that factory-shipped units would be considered "known working". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 YMMV with selling gear. Most stuff I've sold has sat for weeks or months before I got any interest. You might have no interest one week, then suddenly a bunch of people want the item. It goes in waves. 

 FOTM is everywhere. There is some legitimate concern about it when the FOTM item is not as good as the newbies who have no basis for comparison who rant about it say it is. Now that I've had a chance to try a fair bit more gear, I'd say the lower-end Audio-gd gear is priced about right, eg: The Compass and C2C. The higher-end gear, starting with the DAC-19MK3 is good value, and goes up to very good value as you head further into the higher end. The main downside is: Tonally neutral gear isn't everyone's cup of tea -- it's not gear that's tuned for a "wow" sound. The C2C is a little.


----------



## MomijiTMO

Yeah gee new goods better be 'known working' or I'd be pissed!

 xD

 [size=xx-small][Obviously not having a serious dig at userlander][/size]


----------



## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Currawong* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You'd hope that factory-shipped units would be considered "known working". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes. But let's face it, some of this boutique gear (or whatever we might call it) often has a slightly higher error rate than the huge corporate-manufactured stuff. Not that it's usually ever a huge deal, but sometimes there is some inconvenience for the buyer. 

  Quote:


 YMMV with selling gear. Most stuff I've sold has sat for weeks or months before I got any interest. You might have no interest one week, then suddenly a bunch of people want the item. It goes in waves. 

 FOTM is everywhere. There is some legitimate concern about it when the FOTM item is not as good as the newbies who have no basis for comparison who rant about it say it is. Now that I've had a chance to try a fair bit more gear, I'd say the lower-end Audio-gd gear is priced about right, eg: The Compass and C2C. The higher-end gear, starting with the DAC-19MK3 is good value, and goes up to very good value as you head further into the higher end. The main downside is: Tonally neutral gear isn't everyone's cup of tea -- it's not gear that's tuned for a "wow" sound. The C2C is a little. 
 

Sounds reasonable. I would agree with all that, thanks for the input.


----------



## SoFGR

I'm a 19mk3+ C2C (upgrade) combo owner and I'm having some problems with the silver volume pot as well, when i first got it i was hearing LOUD clicks everytime i moved the volume pot, after turning the pot about 60-70 times left right those clicks almost dissapeared, but i still hear them if i move the volume knob while listening to music simultaneously.

 I have no others problems, at least on my AKG K601 and DT150, no hissing/hum on max volume no weird popping and crackling, just loud disturbing clicks while listening to music in moderate-high volumes and moving the volume knob and the same time, i can hear a little bit of clicking too without music playing IF I use DT150(it's little bit more sensitive than K601 i guess ) and move the volume knob somewhere between the 8-10' o clock range.

 I have NOT ever messed with the internals of C2C nor DAC19mk3, altough i admit that i was pretty much careless when switching OPAMPS in my compass. I studied their repair page -> http://www.audio-gd.com/Repair.htm 

 Since compass developed problems after i messed around with opamps and jumper settings i believe it's 100% my fault so i should pay for shipping BOTH ways. On the other hand I plan to ship back C2C along with it, so according with their repair policy, would it be unfair to them if i pay compass repair cost + "sending item from greece-to-china shipping cost" and ask them to send the units back to greece without charging me ? ( my english sucks i know 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## MomijiTMO

Stepped volume pots click. S'all good.


----------



## SoFGR

Are you sure ? i repeat that the clicking behaviour was much worse before "burning-in" the volume pot, do you hear a loud click as well if you mess with the volume knob while listening to music ? kingwa admited a few pages back that shampoosuicide's volume pot was indeed faulty.


----------



## sarathcpt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoFGR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you sure ? i repeat that the clicking behaviour was much worse before "burning-in" the volume pot, do you hear a loud click as well if you mess with the volume knob while listening to music ? kingwa admited a few pages back that shampoosuicide's volume pot was indeed faulty._

 

Seems it will click. Read no. 4 in 'Whats new in C2C upgrade version' here :ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SoFGR* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are you sure ? i repeat that the clicking behaviour was much worse before "burning-in" the volume pot, do you hear a loud click as well if you mess with the volume knob while listening to music ? kingwa admited a few pages back that shampoosuicide's volume pot was indeed faulty._

 

They click, the click will get less apparent as it wears in. If you use different canz that require you to use a different part of the attenuator, it will also have to wear in. So if you got used to 32 ohm Grados and switched to 600 ohm Beyers, you would notice the clicking all over again, because you were using different switches on the volume control.


 That control is a series of little switches that have to "wear in" a little. At first you will hear a click and some static, then just the click after it "wears in" a little.


----------



## tim3320070

You want clicking, get yourself an Onkyo home theater receiver- clicking relays out the wazoo for every source or sound mode change...


----------



## Helmore

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They click, the click will get less apparent as it wears in. If you use different canz that require you to use a different part of the attenuator, it will also have to wear in. So if you got used to 32 ohm Grados and switched to 600 ohm Beyers, you would notice the clicking all over again, because you were using different switches on the volume control.


 That control is a series of little switches that have to "wear in" a little. At first you will hear a click and some static, then just the click after it "wears in" a little._

 

The thing that worries me the most about stepped attenuators is the loss of fine grained volume control. This would seem the most problematic to me with a high sensitivity can like a 32 Ohm Grado. I'm not speaking from experience, as I have no proper amp with a stepped volume control and my concern may thus be unnecessary. 

 My relatively cheap Creative desktop speakers do have a stepped volume control and I already think it's annoying on this 'cheap' speaker set. A stepped volume pot with just 23 steps seems like too little control over your volume level. 

 Is there a way to get the benefits of a stepped volume pot, pretty much no channel imbalance in other words, but with a more fine grained control? A stepped volume pot with more than 50 steps would be nice, but I think that might be more expensive than the C-2C already is. Haven't done any research in that regard though.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Helmore* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The thing that worries me the most about stepped attenuators is the loss of fine grained volume control. This would seem the most problematic to me with a high sensitivity can like a 32 Ohm Grado. I'm not speaking from experience, as I have no proper amp with a stepped volume control and my concern may thus be unnecessary. 

 My relatively cheap Creative desktop speakers do have a stepped volume control and I already think it's annoying on this 'cheap' speaker set. A stepped volume pot with just 23 steps seems like too little control over your volume level. 

 Is there a way to get the benefits of a stepped volume pot, pretty much no channel imbalance in other words, but with a more fine grained control? A stepped volume pot with more than 50 steps would be nice, but I think that might be more expensive than the C-2C already is. Haven't done any research in that regard though._

 

Ok, couple of answers.

 Whether the steps are fine enough grained has a lot to do with your hearing and your canz sensitivity. But IMHO 23 steps is not enough

 Your Creative set is not a stepped attenuator. It has a detent clicker, you could remove the detent clicker, it has nothing to do with nothing really. Stepped attenuators can be googled if you like, so you understand some of the difference.

 There are lots better stepped attenuators, some with many more steps, your linit is your wallet of course.

 We'll just quickly set a rough range of bux here $23 <<>> $1000. $1000 is probably not the real upper limit, I'll bet there are more expensive ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 but you get the idea.

 How much you got to address the issue, that's the question?


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Like anything in audio it's about design/part selection and their acceptable trade offs...a stepped attenuator will present advantages over a carbon wiper type that the stepped attenuator will not be able to mimic and vice versa. Each step has a single pair of closely matched set value resistors in the signal pathway and with each subsequent single step another set of resistors is switched into the signal pathway. There are ways to limit the switching noise but that incurs a sound quality penalty which Kingwa is loath to introduce on purpose. The nature of the pot's insertion into that signal pathway also has effect on the level of noise introduced. The most common method of wiring in a pot is a series connection which depending on the pot's quality will directly influence the signals sent through it. A-gd uses a less intrusive but slightly noisier (when selecting a level) method of insertion in that circuit (parallel wired) which is theoretcially less destructive to the low V signal levels. Think of the pot as a water tap. With the tap closed the full water pressure is not allowed to pass....open that tap a little and the water begins to flow ( a set amount of signal is allowed to pass). AT any one time the stepped pot only has 2 resistors in the signal pathway vs the carbon wiper type which has the entire pot range (10K/20K/25K/50K/100K being the most common range of impedance ratings to choose from) interacting with the signal. The choice of which depends on a whole other set of factors that are left out of this discussion unrelated (yet very important nonetheless) to the narrow focus of the current topic at hand. For simplicities purpose...

 The most common connection methodology of most designs for a volume attenuator is at the point between the line level input and the gain stage. Kingwa's design using the ACSS module has this connection at the output of the current stage (and in parallel) which is a far less intrusive (to the source signal quality) way of attenuating a signal. The Current mode stage in it's itself is a superior method of handling the gain/amplification of that line level signal that has to do with impedance/resistance reactant relationships that shift (think phase shift and variance in resistance/impedance as level increases and is also effected by the frequencies being amplified all having influence on the V based stages that are mitigated to a great degree by the current mode stages or ACSS concept). I know that relationship is a little hard to wrap your head around at first (I'm still studying the 101 handbook myself so any mistakes please pardon and correct/point out )....

 Anyway the bottom line is fine gradient volume control can be custom built into a stepped pot by asking for a very small increment between steps (if you have low impedance high efficiency cans for instance) with the trade off to such a custom config being a too fine a gradient for high impedance less efficient phones. The selection values for the 23 pairs of resistors are compromise to give the widest possible acceptable gradient for a variety of possible cans the amp might be used with. A good project for really understanding a stepped pot is to buy a stepped pot kit and select your own resistor set values to suit your application. It's not as hard as it sounds but it is tedious and it does require some dedication to the task in terms of to not settle with "good enough". What I mean by that is to spend the money required to get yourself a great pot first and then sp[end the time and effort to get the best resistors you can for it (0.1% tolerance matched pairs per step is not all that expensive but buying them already selected might be). My own rule of thumb is to buy 5X the parts needed for each step and then take the closest matched pair of each batch of 10 for that particular step...that also means having a very high quality (accurate) digital meter for determining the best sets.

 I realize 99% of the folks out there will never tackle such a job but I feel the info behind the concept and how they constructed is useful in understanding why quality stepped attenuators are a cut above there carbon wiper type counterparts. It'll also make one appreciate why a DACT or Goldpoint costs what it does.

 That being all said the stepped pot Kingwa uses is a entry level budget piece of kit in this specialty arena. I find it an acceptable performer for it's cost and I certainly feel those drawbacks it brings to the table are worth it vs the lower SQ of the carbon wiper type (Alps RK27 in this case).

 I hope some of this was helpful...

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Hi Peete,
 Nice writeup on the Pots and CAST stuff. I do have a difference in preference here though. He wires all these POT/Controls in "Parallel" or shunt mode. So using a R27 Alps would be preferable to me since it is not "inline". That's why he does it that way. Then you have infinite variability with no dirty POT inline.

 Like here:

Shunt Pot Volume Control - World-Designs-Forum


----------



## MomijiTMO

Hmm where was it that I read that something about what happens if the volume pot fails? Max volume? It's too early for me to be on the internet.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MomijiTMO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm where was it that I read that something about what happens if the volume pot fails? Max volume? It's too early for me to be on the internet._

 

That's a concern, I suppose. How often do wipers totally lift? I've never seen it that I know of.


----------



## MomijiTMO

I dunno, I trust the designers to ponder over such issues.


----------



## tim3320070

Well done Peete- this should be read by every person that has issues with the clicking so they can appreciate what it is.


----------



## Helmore

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MomijiTMO* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmm where was it that I read that something about what happens if the volume pot fails? Max volume? It's too early for me to be on the internet._

 

If by failing you mean it acts like an open connection then in this case you would get maximum volume. If the volume pot is position at the line level input then this would simply result in no sound at all. I'm wondering though, could the pot also fail in a different way? Except physically breaking the stem of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 My main problem with the stepped attenuator on the C-2C would be the lack of fine grained control. It's just that I have no hands on experience with the C-2C (yet) and I might simply be worrying over a non existent problem/annoyance.

 @les_garten: I didn't say my speaker set truly has a stepped attenuator, only that the volume control works in steps. Those steps can't be physically detected when you turn the knob, but you can hear it change the volume in steps when you connect a pair of headphones to its headphone jack and listen while changing the volume.

 I seriously need to get something like an Audio-GD DAC-19MKIII with C-2C combo though. Connecting my headphones through my speaker set sounds decent, but I already know it can sound much better than this.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Peete,
 Nice writeup on the Pots and CAST stuff. I do have a difference in preference here though. He wires all these POT/Controls in "Parallel" or shunt mode. So using a R27 Alps would be preferable to me since it is not "inline". That's why he does it that way. Then you have infinite variability with no dirty POT inline.

 Like here:

Shunt Pot Volume Control - World-Designs-Forum_

 

Thanks for your take on things and further info WRT topology/implementation choices Les !...I'll give it a read ASAP as the shunt config has my curiosity piqued...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Peete.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's a concern, I suppose. How often do wipers totally lift? I've never seen it that I know of._

 

The wiper doesn't lift (not even the cheap pots do this that I found) but the resistance materiel the wiper is in contact with eventually wears down, becomes noisy and changes value. Good quality pots do last a long long time but need periodic maintenance (deoxit,contact cleaner etc) whereas a stepped pot such as the ones we've been discussing here have contact wear but never have their step values drift (unless one used really crappy resistors such as carbon composite which are notorious for drift with age and exposure to prolonged heat).

 Peete.

 PS: Thanks Tim. I hope I got it right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure Kingwa or other members will set me straight on anything I have ass backwards and so they should.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Les...I just got through reading the link you posted and wondered if this concept couldn't be used to covert the fixed gain stage in the C-2C into an adjustable one ? I have the stock RK27 gathering dust that might be perfect for the job if the idea is feasible.

 Peete.


----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Pricklely Peete* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Les...I just got through reading the link you posted and wondered if this concept couldn't be used to covert the fixed gain stage in the C-2C into an adjustable one ? I have the stock RK27 gathering dust that might be perfect for the job if the idea is feasible.

 Peete._

 

Not really following you about why the C-2C is different than anything else. But here's some PIX of a POT setup KW sent me for a C-2C.


----------



## shampoosuicide

I thought I would report back on my upgraded C-2C, which I had sent to Kingwa for repair due to a loud crackling/popping I experienced when turning the volume pot.

 I discussed this problem earlier here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6047982-post434.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6226805-post595.html

 I also found two other users who experienced problems with the volume pot:
Jodet 1
Jodet 2
Adamora

 For the record, according to Kingwa, the volume pot itself was faulty.

 Kingwa shipped the amp back to me, and I tested it with both my Zero and iMac as sources, and the *[size=small]same problem is still there[/size]*. To give an idea of the crackling/popping, it is easily 150-200% the volume of the music. I listen quite loud, and the crackling is loud enough to give me a bad shock.

 To be sure that the source of the noise wasn't my own setup, I brought it down to a local hi-fi shop today (Jaben, a Head-Fi sponsor). I tested it out of a Marantz CD4000 CD player, and three different headphones: a Beyer DT770 (250 Ohm), Grado SR80 (25 Ohm) and my own AT AD2000 (40 Ohm). While the noise was fairly soft with the DT770, it was very distinct with the SR80 (80-100% music volume) and very loud with the AD2000 (150-200% music volume). The amp was also tested by [size=small]four[/size] shop assistants, who heard the same loud crackling/popping I described.

 I will also note that the crackling/popping appears to be louder with low-impedance headphones and with sources that have a stronger output signal. I noticed that both Jodet and Adamora who experienced issues with the volume pot are using low-impedance Denon D5000s. Driven directly by my iMac, the noise isn't as loud as when driven by the Zero, about 50-75% music volume. Before I returned the C-2C for Kingwa for repair, I had also tested the amp with an old Philips DVD player, and the noise was even louder than when driven with the Zero.

 I have contacted Kingwa regarding this and we're still in the midst of working something out.


----------



## FauDrei

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *shampoosuicide* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have contacted Kingwa regarding this and we're still in the midst of working something out._

 

Get the "non upgraded" standard C-2C pot and be over with it.

 Seems that stepped attenuators are not for everyone.


----------



## Helmore

I just noticed on the Audio-GD site that you can't even order the upgraded version of the C-2C anymore, while the standard version has been reduced in price and now costs $300 (excl. shipping).


----------



## FauDrei

Few days back there were "C-2C phasing out 10% discount" message on A-GD's front page...

 Looks like we'll have C-2Cmk2 or C-3C soon.


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Not really following you about why the C-2C is different than anything else. But here's some PIX of a POT setup KW sent me for a C-2C._

 

It should work I would think since the gain is fixed by a pair of resistors of X value in the C-2C although where those are at I have no idea (yet). Going by the article you provided the link for, the RK27 pot wired in shunt mode and in parallel to the gain resistors could give one a variable gain control. The 0db setting of the pot (wide open) would represent whatever the fixed gain is stock (6db ?) while cutting the volume on the pot should reduce the gain. In theory anyway...maybe I haven't thought this through fully but it seems like it should work.

 Peete.


----------



## squall343

is this the C2C replacement?

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 the C2?

 with ACSS input just right for the new dac19


----------



## Mad Max




----------



## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *squall343* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_is this the C2C replacement?

ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1

 the C2?

 with ACSS input just right for the new dac19_

 

Very interesting looking. His naming schema eludes me. C-2? Also now a REF 7? KW needs to sit down and get a long term naming scheme in his mind. Or possibly it all make sense to him and we just don't get it.


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## Mad Max

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *les_garten* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Very interesting looking. His naming schema eludes me. C-2? Also now a REF 7? KW needs to sit down and get a long term naming scheme in his mind. Or possibly it all make sense to him and we just don't get it._

 

What's to get? I like his naming scheme anyway. I think "FUN" sounds cheesy for an amp.
 Phoenix and Roc are badass names, though.

 REF 7???
 You're the one who lost _me_


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## tim3320070

Naming needs to be streamlined IMO. I talked to Kingwa about making a portable DAC/Amp like the Ibasso D10- he is considering it.


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## MomijiTMO

Umm yeah - most would assume the C-2C is a revision of the C-2.

 As for guts - hooray for heatsinks and not using the case as one.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mad Max* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What's to get? I like his naming scheme anyway. I think "FUN" sounds cheesy for an amp.
 Phoenix and Roc are badass names, though.

 REF 7???
 You're the one who lost me



_

 

Well REF 7 was the point of my post...


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## Currawong

He wont use 4, as it's a bad-luck number in Chinese. Not sure why 5 and 6 were skipped though. 7 and 8 are probably better numbers (well 8 definitely is for Chinese people).


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## mtntrance

I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on these two new products. I have SD650s on the way from Headroom. I was going for the solution of being able to use the Home Theater when the family is asleep with headphones. I was going to get a Emotiva USP-1 pre amp for the headphone output. After discovering head-fi I realized I can probably get back into listening to music like I used to do when I lived alone before I had a family.

 So I am going back and forth between should I get the USP-1 to front end my Emo HT stuff and then get a pico for Ety 4 p/s for an improved HP experience or just get the Audio GD stuff. I wish there were some reviews of the new C2 and DAC 19 out. Hopefully some of you will check out Kingwa's new stuff at his website and post what you think as I am not familiar with amp and DAC technology...yet.


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## les_garten

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mtntrance* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on these two new products. I have SD650s on the way from Headroom. I was going for the solution of being able to use the Home Theater when the family is asleep with headphones. I was going to get a Emotiva USP-1 pre amp for the headphone output. After discovering head-fi I realized I can probably get back into listening to music like I used to do when I lived alone before I had a family.

 So I am going back and forth between should I get the USP-1 to front end my Emo HT stuff and then get a pico for Ety 4 p/s for an improved HP experience or just get the Audio GD stuff. I wish there were some reviews of the new C2 and DAC 19 out. Hopefully some of you will check out Kingwa's new stuff at his website and post what you think as I am not familiar with amp and DAC technology...yet._

 

Stuff just came out, so reviews may take a little bit till some folks buy a few. The C-2 looks pretty interesting from the PIX.


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## haloxt

Why do you need reviews of the new c2 and dac19mk4? I think how their predecessors have already been reviewed is a good indication that these too will be well-received.


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## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mtntrance* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on these two new products. I have SD650s on the way from Headroom. I was going for the solution of being able to use the Home Theater when the family is asleep with headphones. I was going to get a Emotiva USP-1 pre amp for the headphone output. After discovering head-fi I realized I can probably get back into listening to music like I used to do when I lived alone before I had a family.

 So I am going back and forth between should I get the USP-1 to front end my Emo HT stuff and then get a pico for Ety 4 p/s for an improved HP experience or just get the Audio GD stuff. I wish there were some reviews of the new C2 and DAC 19 out. Hopefully some of you will check out Kingwa's new stuff at his website and post what you think as I am not familiar with amp and DAC technology...yet._

 

Part of being a member of community is being willing to take a shot on something and give something back to the community -- like in the form of reviews, impressions, for sale items -- rather than just letting everyone else take the initiative for you. 

 You say you are seriously considering it -- well, that's probably more than a lot of people, who at this point might only be casually considering it. So maybe you could step up and "be the change" you are waiting for everyone else to provide. 

 just saying


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## mtntrance

Thanks, I am all for making a contribution but since this will be my first mid-fi headphone rig, except an ety 4p/s and airhead, I will probably be so blown away that my review will probably not add as much as an experienced head-fier.

 Anyway, I have been happy with Kingway's speedy correspondence when answering questions so far. 

 He says the C2 sounds better than the C2-C though I will miss the upgraded pot and balanced HP out on the C2C.

 I have been steered away form the Little Dot solid state stuff thanks to reviews of audio gd here.

 I am pulling the trigger today.


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## userlander

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mtntrance* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks, I am all for making a contribution but since this will be my first mid-fi headphone rig, except an ety 4p/s and airhead, I will probably be so blown away that my review will probably not add as much as an experienced head-fier.

 Anyway, I have been happy with Kingway's speedy correspondence when answering questions so far. 

 He says the C2 sounds better than the C2-C though I will miss the upgraded pot and balanced HP out on the C2C.

 I have been steered away form the Little Dot solid state stuff thanks to reviews of audio gd here.

 I am pulling the trigger today._

 

Cool - I'll bet your review will be fine. You've had two ears your whole life, imho that's all the experience you really need.


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## fuseboxx

I was able to borrow a friend's C2C for a while and after throughly auditioning it, I can say that this is amp is quite the beast and that I haven't been this impressed with an amp in... well... ever.

_ (take that with a grain of salt though because I haven't really had the chance to audition a lot of quality amps thoroughly)_

 I haven't read through the thread yet so that my impressions won't be influenced so kindly opine if you find my impressions to be consistent or not with the general impressions regarding this amp. Right now I'm listening to it using this chain: PC (foobar) > Ibasso D10 DAC > C2C amp > DT770

 First off, the *improvement in soundstage* was incredibly noticeable. The headstage becomes massive when using this amp as well as becoming more *open and airy*.

 Also, the percussions became *punchier*, the *separation* is excellent, and you can hear the *clear and crisp natural acoustics* in the music. I had a fun time listening to Eric Clapton's "Unplugged" with this and I bet that any album with well-recorded acoustic guitars will impress as well.

 When I reverted back to my default setup (PC > Ibasso D10 DAC/amp) I realized one more characteristic of the C2C: *Well controlled treble / sibilance*

 It just surprised me that when I removed the C2C from the chain, the cymbals and high female vocals became obviously more piercing than with the C2C.

 Night and Day difference for me with the C2C, definitely.
   
  I also heard that it seems the C2C synergizes better with high-impedance headphones. Has anyone noticed this?


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## 65dos

its good amp?


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## panda-R

from the grave!


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## jigsawPB

to Pricklely Peete 
   How big difference of the Audio-gd FUN and Audio-gd C-2C with HD650?


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## lukecruise

I received an old C-2C today。It has an amazing sound with my source（marantz NA7004)and K601s.


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## Guyzie

Quote: 





insyte said:


> Ipod 60 GB 5th gen (Rockbox/Lineout) --> FLAC --> Ferds' LOD --> Mini^3 (high performance version)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hi insyte,
   
  I know this is many years later, but what kind of rockbox theme are you using on that ipod?? Looks amazing!
   
  Thanks


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## insyte

Quote: 





guyzie said:


> Hi insyte,
> 
> I know this is many years later, but what kind of rockbox theme are you using on that ipod?? Looks amazing!
> 
> Thanks


 
  I think it was one of the versions of ipod widgets. I'm using this one now .... http://themes.rockbox.org/index.php?themeid=10&target=ipodvideo


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