# X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.



## trodas

In spring 2006 I finally get my hands on X-Fi Fatal1ty card. The reason for upgrade from my Audigy2zs was mostly the *pause bug*, BF2 support (I started play BF2 a lot) and the X-ram thing, that provide 64MB soundbuffer that should dramaticaly reduce PCI load - hence give me some speed-up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Or so I thought. The first nasty surprise when I actually get the card in my hand was this:






 Not only the unnecessary long legs, but mainly the capacitors type - Jamicons. Jamicon cap's are bad, they are known to fail - eg. over time lost most of their specs.
 At first, everything work great, except some weird noises when BF2 is loading sounds. (maybe the card did not like OGM playback when there is going writing samples to the X-ram? Or my A9R480 Sapphire Grouper mobo is up to blame?) However after like 2 months are the pause bug back.

 When I say pause bug, I mean this. Using any player, play a AC3 5.1 movie while using 5.1 speakers on analog connection. Decoding filter has to be AC3 filter and it has to use 24bit output to generate enough data to trigger the failure. Now randomly pause and unpause the playback. Sooner ot later the channels start play from wrong speakers and/or there is terrible noise from all speakers comming after the unpause. This is a pause bug. I had it on Audigy (1), Audigy2zs and after two months on X-Fi as well.

 It was obvious that the X-Fi is need to be recapped and the Jamicons changed to good, preferably audio caps - but NOT for all positions. The catch is, that Creative did use one capacitor type for all positions - eg. for the voltage filtering as well, as for the audio output. That is nonsense at best. Audio and computers capacitors don't mix!
 So, they simply put Jamicons everywhere. Not something that I would expect from 260$ pricetag (spring 2006, mind you) product :hitwall: 











*Now why I started this thread.*

 Well, to begin with, some weeks ago (to 14. 8. 2006) I started to play Mafia - a original Czech game of the 1930 NewYork organized crime. You simply work your way up in the organization at prohibition times, drive old cars, steal, murder and finally seek salvation from the hands of cops... During play it sometimes in these briefing talking scenes is seems to starting to lost some samples. I thought that the Czech programmers engine simply could have some quirks with 64MB of sample buffer on X-Fi Fatal1ty. After all, as the game release there was not such a thing as X-Fi, right? However the more I play and the closer to the end I was, the more often it happening. And it kinda suxx to go on mission and not know the briefing, right? However as I finished the game, the problems are gone, so...

 So then I started play Prey 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And when shortly in game in one spot appears more sounds at once (your girl scream, mechanic move, buttons, alien...), the whole computer freeze. I remember the Jamicons and quickly pull the X-Fi out and replaced the big Jamicon (originaly a 220uF 16V) with Panny FM 470uF 16V as well, as two 100uF Jamicons with 120uF Panny FM ones.



*The results.*

 I finished whole Prey in few days of hard gaming w/o crash or any problem. I went back to Mafia and - whoa, samples aren't lost anymore again. My apology, Czech programmers. I did not trusted in yours skils... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In adition, the pause bug is - GONE! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Pause bug - long story:
  Quote:


 *Pause bug*
 Long time ago I decided to upgrade my speakers. It was when Matrix Reloaded was released and I realized my own homemade apm + speakers are simply not enought. They can't handle the extremly low-frequency effects designed for subwoofers to "shake your world and body" combined with the music. The fight scene with many copy's of Agent Smith verzus Neo was shiny example of my speakers inequality - beside every friend visiting me was constantly asking where I bought them, because they play, well... very well :good:
 So, to make some use of my SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 output I choosen a Genius SW-5.1 wooden speakers, because they sound damn good (with some modifications, better opamps, cables and stuff). Now the best AC3 decode was a AC3 filter. It sound damn good, however there also come the price. Every time I pause ANY movie using ANY player (Mplayer, Mplayer Classic, BSplay, SoubtitleWorkshop DS preview play, etc) and then quickly unpause it, it sometimes swap random channels. And believe me, hearing subwoofer efect from mid speaker and speaking of actors thru the subwoofer is not exactly exciting...
 It was also (SB Live! 5.1) not capable of 24 bit output.

 To fix this ughly pause bug and get 24bit, I go and bought Audigy soundcard. Later are revealed that the Audigy is not exactly 24bit at all and my ears kinda relalized it anyway. And futhermore, not only the quality of sound did not improve over SB Live! 5.1, but the pause bug become more frequent and it add a whole new trick. Most times the "channel swap" was not enought. Now it mostly push hi-volume noise into most or all channels...! Believe me, suddently hearing high volume noise from all the 6 channels will make you jump 

 To get true 24bit output AND get rid of the pause bug I bought later an Audigy 2 ZS card (after checking and realizing the simply Audigy 2 card witch friend has with same speakers, did not improve much of the sound), but the pause bug did not disappeared at all. That make me kinda furious and angry.

 Yet about year and half back I invested again into Creative crap and bought a full-featured X-Fi Fatal1ty for enhancing my BF2 play experience and eventualy geting rid of the pause bug. That was likely the last time I bought anything from Creative. Not only I have to mod drivers to work/install on Win2k a bit, but they also suxx and the pausebug is still here.
 I managed to get rid of it for some month or so, after I replace some major caps on the X-Fi, but as the other caps aging (and they are bad brand of caps also - something that is hard to believe in a $260 pricetag at the buy time product) I get the pause bug yet again.

 So there you have proof, that Direct Show decoders seeking could be a problem, when using 5.1 output with 24bit AC3 filter settings and quickly do many random pause/unpause of a AC3/DTS movie.

 It (the pause bug) travel with me on many different mainboards/CPUs and happen even in completelly new mobos - and even now, when I have mobo with all good caps and completely recapped PSU. I planing to get rid of it by complete X-Fi recapp + add enhanced and brutal PCI voltage filtering for the X-Fi + shielding the X-Fi. 
 


*Later.*

 So I added the frontpannel later (moth or so), but in like a week, problems and pausebug are there again. Frontpannel is full of Jamicons too, and it obviously accelerated the dying of Jamicons on card or so. I pulled it out, yet the pause bug is still there. No crashing, luckily.


*I would like to hear from X-Fi and perhaps also Audigy2(zs) users about their experience and possibly about their sound bugs. There is so many people on Creative forum that claim to have similar issues as me, so... I wonder in how many cases this could be avoided just by using good caps and not Jamicon crap...*



 To completely recap X-Fi you need:

 X-Fi Fata1ity
 -------------
 Remove and short 16x 22uF 16V Jamicon decoupling caps - C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68. http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1...gcapsgoan9.jpg

 1x Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V (d8) Big Pope
 2x Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V (d6.3) Big Pope
 17x Panny FM 150uF 6.3V (d5) P12917-ND Digi-key
 1x Panny FM 100uF 10V (d5) P12919-ND Digi-key
 2x Panny FM 68uF 16V (d5) P12921-ND Digi-key
 4x Panny FM 47uF 25V (d5) P12923-ND Digi-key
 6x Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit Sonic craft
 2x Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit Sonic craft

 (you can ship the Black Gates and only remove the original caps off the card, if you are not plan to use the 10pin Creative connector and the AUX-IN connector near it)


 Audigy 2zs
 ----------
 3x 100uF 16V d6.3 (Jamicon) - P12922-ND
 5x 47uf 16V d5 (Teapo) - P11196-ND
 35x 22uF 16V d4 (Jamicon) - P11213-ND
 5x 10uF 16V d4 (Jamicon) - P11212-ND
 11x 4.7uF 50V d4 (Jamicon) - P10315-ND
 3x 1uF 50V d4 (Wincap) - P10312-ND

 (digi-key.com product numbers used)


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## trodas

This is a picture of X-Fi Fatal1ty by user Raggingbone that continue to have crashes and stuff with the card:





 No wonder when the Jamicon for main X-Fi chip is alredy leaking!





 (X-Fi Fatal1ty Sanyo Os-con SEPC 820uF 2,5V for main chip voltage filtering used)

 This attempt not helped me to get rid of the pause bug - eg. pausing and unpausing movie with any player, using AC3 filter 24bit output cause switched channels or terrible noise after unpause.
 Damn.
 Bridging the polymer with 10uF SMD ceramic helped a bit more, but it is still like 50/50 chance to get a pause bug there. Panny FM 470uF with 4,7uF ceramic helped me much more before, damn.

 Next try - 1000uF Samxon GC bridged with 4.7uF CMD ceramic (Tayo Yuden).

 Nah, next try - try to study how to *voltage regulation for the main X-Fi chip* is done in the first place 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So, the volage regulation for the main X-Fi chip is made by *TI PS54352* chip.
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
 The recommended use is this:






 From this is quite obvious, that Creative design is very bellow specs one and for example - the imput filtering elyte capacity should be at least 100uF and as close to the chip a 10uF (at least) ceramics low-ESR cap. The Creative imput filtering elyte are 22uF Jamicon (!) and I did not yet measure the ceramic one, but I fear it is not "at least" 10uF as it should be.
 Measured 15uF. I should desolder it, I think I measure something else with it also...

 Same for the output. I see bulk capacity there, a 330uF elyt, 100uF another low esr cap and 0,1uF ceramics. Creative used a 220uF Jamicon witch is not low ESR cap in any way, shape or form...

 So now it is clear, why I get the best results with mediocre 470uF Panny FM 16V cap (mediocre because using 16V cap on 1.25V a "bit" soften it's specs) with bridged 4,7uF ceramics are best and why the ultra-low-ESR polymer was not a great there.

 My fault. Now I also going to replace the imput filtering "bulk" capacity - by Creative 22uF 16V Jamicon - by me a 150uF 6.3V Nichicon HE :dev: Yet the usage of 470uF Panny FM bridged with 0,1uF ceramic cap is not so great also. I still having the "pause bug"...


 Considering what might cause the "pause bug" I do wonder, how well Creative followed up the DAC recommended connections:
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat.../CS4382_F1.pdf














 PS. I just replaced the there output opamps from the old useless (they was used even in Audigy (1) !!!) MC4558C ( MC4558CD datasheet pdf datenblatt - STMicroelectronics - WIDE BANDWIDTH DUAL BIPOLAR OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS ::: ALLDATASHEET ::: ) to the praised LM4562 ( LM4562 datasheet pdf datenblatt - National Semiconductor - Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier ::: ALLDATASHEET ::: ) opamps. It was kinda easy, however the changes are minimal. You cannot hear any difference in mp3 bellow 320kBi, that is for sure. When we talking about DTS 768kBi, well, ten there finally is some difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But not so major. It is obvious that complete recap of the Jamicon crap caps has to be done as well, as the audiojacks has to be gold-plated for the subwoofer connection, the whole subwoofer has to be recapped and possibly modified also, so there is a notable difference.

 Ask the Nartional Semiconductor for there sample pieces of the LM4562MA in the SOIC NARROW version for free there:
National Semiconductor Home - Energy-efficient PowerWise analog solutions: operational amplifiers, data converters, LED drivers, LVDS, Simple Switchers, switching regulators, LDO, temp sensor, webench, NSM, NSC, NS, NatSemi, National Semi
 And you can replace the there 4558 "things" used for the output channels :dev: There is also another opamps for mic in, line in and some more down there... So maybe a 6 opamps is not a bad idea.


 PS2. parts list for SB0460 - X-FI Fatal1ty:
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting
 parts list for SB0550 - X-FI Elite Pro:
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting
 ...a good start 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A few interesting (but not mine, Bichi's work) X-Fi mod pictures:


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## Dave_M

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sooner ot later the channels start play from wrong speakers and/or there is terrible noise from all speakers comming after the unpause. This is a pause bug. I had it on Audigy (1), Audigy2zs and after two months on X-Fi as well._

 

Stop buying Creative sound cards then!! But seriously, well written and no, it should stay in the DIY section. and nice pictures by the way.


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## RedLeader

Unfortunately they pretty much have the corner on the gaming sound card market. No one else comes close in terms of hardware, even with the bugs.


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## Dave_M

I play CS with a ESI Juli@ and it works great. no bugs at all. CS has software sound engine, no makes no difference if your card has hardware sound acceleration or not.


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## Daroid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Jamicon cap's are bad, they are known to fail - eg. over time lost most of their specs._

 

While i wouldn't choose Jamicon, no matter how low my budget was, i don't think there's anything wrong with their capacitors overall. Do you have a reliable source for this?
 Over time any electrolytic cap. will loose all of their original specs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Audio and computers capacitors don't mix!
 So, they simply put Jamicons everywhere. Not something that I would expect from 260$ pricetag (spring 2006, mind you) product 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









 

I would. even if it was $2000. Unless there is any need for a capacitor with special features, such as low ESL and ESR, standard capacitors are chosen. There's no audio capacitors in that business, regardless of what you spend - because in the end Creative and others could have earned $100k more by not using special grade capacitors. There's also much snake oil going on. But i would be a little dissappointed with how they mounted the capacitor in the first pic, it snaps off too easily.

 I thought the problem might be due to IRQ sharing, drivers, or a motherboard latency bug, considering you have had the same problem with other Creative cards. Did you try the cards out in a different PC?


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## trodas

*Dave_M* - I wish I can, I swear that X-Fi is the last Creative thing I bought, but... show me a good gaming alternative witch also have usable sound. I get too much used to the 5.1 positional audio, I can't live w/o it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks for your comments anyway. My english is a bit rusty, tough. I'm not native spaker, nor I get any official english education.


*RedLeader* - exactly. So, the question is not how we can modify the cardie 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*Dave_M* - one thing is CS and another is BF2. Ultra settings for audio witch help me a lot in gaming (I can hear almost anything that move in whole game, Oooooh! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) is awailable only for X-Fi. No other card come in speed even close. And 64MB buffer for samples to easy your old, slow PCI bus - what more one can want?
 Oh, yes, at least Pannasonic caps on it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*Daroid* - well, once I used Jamicons to boost my Vcore regulator. The board died in 20min. I did not yet managed it to repair (!).
 Another thing to consideration I already written - 2 months okay. And then pause bug. I'm sorry, but cap that can hold it's parameters for only 2 months are a BAD CAP. Period.
 And yes, any electrolyte cap die. The problem is, that the lifetime is usualy more that 2 months. Usualy are from 2 000h to like 7 000h for Panny FM >d12.5. Now that is for full load and 105°C guaranted. Usualy they last longer, but that it another story. Now for each 10°C lower temp, their guaranted lifetime DOUBLE. So, you end up with this:

 105°C - 2 000h
 95°C - 4 000h
 85°C - 8 000h
 75°C - 16 000h
 65°C - 32 000h
 55°C - 64 000h
 45°C - 128 000h

 One year when you use the cap 10h of it is therefore 3 650h. So at 55°C it is guaranted the cap last you 17.5 years, at 45°C it is guaranted that it last you 35 years.
 I bet that this is more time that you willing to use the component w/o replacing/recapping it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I would not expect that, but I'm perhaps a bit naive... Jamicons are, as we demonstrated up, bad caps. They should not be used at all. X-Fi is praised as "fantastic reality-like sound" and stuff, so I would expect some audio capacitors. Samxons made Audio caps, Nichicon made Audio caps - ot at least they should use the Panasonics.
 Where capacitor with special features are need? Where more is low ESR cap need, that in the voltage filtering circuit that deliver the power to the chip! And yet, they stuff there Jamicon, 220uF 16V one. I'm going to replace that with 1000uF 6.3V Samxon GC witch is pretty low ESR cap. Just replacing that with 470uF 16V Panny FM fixed many important bugs with the card operation, so I would say that there IS need for that.

 Ofcourse I see the revenue problem clearly - that is what capitalism is all about. Making as much money, as possible. However the quality then suffer badly and manking as whole can't move forward.
 Nevermind my rambling... but the mount of the capacitor is indeed lame. There are some explaintions on Bad Caps about it ( http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1659 ) but neverless I consider is pretty bad also. My soldering is not that lame - you will see.

  Quote:


 I thought the problem might be due to IRQ sharing, drivers, or a motherboard latency bug, considering you have had the same problem with other Creative cards. Did you try the cards out in a different PC? 
 

Yes. Different people observed it as well. You should know, that the bug is plaguing me from Epox 8RDA+ mobo, to DFI LP B, then shortly MSI KT6V and then another DFI LP B and then A9RX480 grouper. During the transition there soundcards was exchanged too... Countless of drivers, operating system versions and so on. And then, out of blue, one simple caps exchange fixed that for some time. Obviously complete recap of the card is in order


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## soloz2

do you know if these are the same caps used on the Xtreme music?


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## trodas

No, not held that one directly in hand, but I would bet yes. As long as the layout, except for heatsink, is same, the probability is 99%.

 To say it short, Creative is picking the worst caps ever produced and stuffing them into their products. Time for recap them with some nice caps - perhaps not the Pannyes but Elna RFS


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## Dave_M

Yes, X-Fi is needed for good quality in BF. I have experianced this. But it is not the fault of the software cards that it sounds bad, and it is not the X-Fi that sounds good. Rather, it is the BF _software _sound engine that is just rubbish. For example you can hear tanks and things from miles away, makes no difference to the sound if they are behind a building, no realism at all.

 The X-Fi hardware is rather good, well designed, reasonably good sound quallity. But the bloatware that comes with it, and all the marketing rubbish that Creative comes out with puts me off. I decided not to buy any more Creative products. And I will never buy BF so long as the sound engine is rubbish. It is a cheap and effective solution


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## skudmunky

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Dave_M* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, X-Fi is needed for good quality in BF. I have experianced this. But it is not the fault of the software cards that it sounds bad, and it is not the X-Fi that sounds good. Rather, it is the BF software sound engine that is just rubbish. For example you can hear tanks and things from miles away, makes no difference to the sound if they are behind a building, no realism at all.

 The X-Fi hardware is rather good, well designed, reasonably good sound quallity. But the bloatware that comes with it, and all the marketing rubbish that Creative comes out with puts me off. I decided not to buy any more Creative products. And I will never buy BF so long as the sound engine is rubbish. It is a cheap and effective solution 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I'm sick of people whining about the creative "bloatware" - do you not realize that you can select exactly which features you want installed? Some people might want everything because they do a lot of audio related stuff, some people want the bare minimum stripped down version, for improved gaming or listening performance. If it really bothers you that much, select the "custom" installation option and select only what you need.


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## Dave_M

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skudmunky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some people might want everything because they do a lot of audio related stuff, some people want the bare minimum stripped down version, for improved gaming or listening performance._

 

And some people want to use all the features of the product they payed for without having to put up with sub standard software. The x-Fi drivers take up at least a couple hundred MBs of disk space! That is definatly bloatware! I've got a creative card, so I know the kind of stuff that they try to install and what it is like. Creative sound cards are really let down by the software and support.

 And what is "improved listening performance"? That sounds like somthing creative would come out with.


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## trodas

*Dave_M* - you are right, however that the situation is. Both X-Fi and BF2 is not worth spending any money at all, but... You know.
 And you are right, the bloatware and crappy drivers is the end of Creative. I wish to see nothing more from them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*skudmunky* - did you installed X-Fi, just once? There is over 350MB of samples that end up in your ProgramFiles... Could be deleted, tough. But just the absolutely necessary volume pannel took 20MB... Nice. Just theme for "AudioCreation" mode is 9MB big.
 That IS bloatware. And quess what - it get worser. First at all, w/o user agreement with it, there is installed and each time computer start run the creative registration stuff. The anim took like 6MB only, tough. (if this is not 40, not sure now, deleted anyway...)
 Then there are TWO processes that are not only aren't need to run each time my machine run, but mainly they HAS TO BE DISABLED, if you ever want update WebUpdate2 your drivers...!!!

 So, in short, Creative put a into my machine W/O ANY ASKING 3 questionable programs that start when my machine does start and two of them make even impossible update the drivers...

 If this is not bloatware, then I don't know what it is!

 And as least drop - even the drivers contain directory named W2k_XP they can't be, from Update3 and up installed on Windows 2000, and Creative just say that they did NOT support W2k.
 First at all, this is not true (but it is true that not even the win drivers update from update 3 and up can't be installed on Win2k!) and second - I did not want Creative telling me that I have to use the XP crap! No way! What is next? Vista only? Creative can go to hell to all what I care


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## joe_cool

My disappointing experience with Sound Blaster Live! is the main reason I don't use E-MU sound cards. I thought a 50MB sound driver was ridiculous and then I had to mod the hardware to get a decent headphone sound on my HD580s. 

 I tell myself that I am not the "average" consumer and try to understand that Creative is just trying to make an honest profit. But I find the corporate mentality objectionable. 

 Who was that male recording artist that said "Ya gotta cop teen coin"?


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## picklgreen

...


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## splaz

^ Why delete it ?

 soloz2, I have the extreme music and took a peek, hard to see well upside down and in a small gap but I saw the dodgy black/gold mounting and the big bank of black and whites so I'd presume identical parts.

 trodas when you said audio and computer caps don't mix I take it you mean cheapo computer caps. As you pretty much just recapped with a good choice for recapping motherboards. My RMA'd motherboard had a pretty good job done on it with FLs put in.

 As for others saying Jamicons are okay, not usually in computer hardware, they've know to vent/explode well within the sort of expected lifetime of lytics and without extreme conditions present.

 [OT] Just went to digikey to look waht you've suggested and how much it would cost, they've just made a change to the layout. Takes up more page space but saves on clicking several links in a row.[/OT]


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## trodas

*splaz* -  Quote:


 when you said audio and computer caps don't mix I take it you mean cheapo computer caps 
 

No. No I did not mean that. Bad caps/cheapo stuff is a thing not worth even mention (like Jamicons) - they MUST go off from my HW to hell.
 What I meant is, that capacitors ideal for recapping mainboards voltage circuits like Samxon GC/GA will sure sound TERRIBLE for passing audio. Hence is is necessary to have other brands for voltage filtering (where as low ERS/ESL and hence as high ripple as possible is need) and other brands for audio circuits for passing the audio signal.

 I would say Samxon GC for voltage filtering and Elna RFS for the audio part.

 Do we have better unterestanging now? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 And I defninitively insist on Jamicons being bad caps. Lasting two months in my X-Fi Fatal1ty is more that clear example of their "quality".

 As for digikey and caps - looks to me that main problem is, that every these smaller caps on the X-Fi need to be d4 ...


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## trodas

Sorry guys that the images is not showing up anymore, slibe.com guys having "technical problems", but they keep having them for like a month, so I don't know What... Nevermind.

 There is failing Jamicon on X-Fi, picture by Ragginbone - his X-Fi card did not just cause audio glitches and stuff, his card crashing his system! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 Do anyone wonder?!


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## Pm@c

My XM rocks. Only problem is PCI bus intereference, but im gonna use some ERS paper to fix that. Before I do that, Im gonna replace the caps anyways (might as well, if Im going to end up wrapping it in ERS paper). So yeah ,hopefully the sound comes out 10x better.


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## StanleyBuchanan

Is there anyone out there that is performing these upgrades commercially?

 I know I would be glad to ship off my card to someone to upgrade my X-Fi if it meant having a stable/reliable "high end gaming" audio card....


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## cotdt

A recap is definately a good idea. I'll use this post for my X-Fi modding guide.


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## cotdt

BTW, the best and most expensive DACs also use Jamicons. I don't know why, but audiophile-equipment companies all seem to be picking the Jamicons. Everything I buy has them these days. They lose their capacitance very quickly, and develop high ESL over time.


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## TheMafioso

Hi Guys,

 I have creative X-Fi Xtrememusic card(the old version, without H/S) lying with me for quite some time, I don't use it anymore as it has sound crackling issues, that too in normal operations, like in music player, etc...

 After reading the thread, I'm pretty much conviced that the volatage filtering capicitor (Jamicon 220uF 16V one) has gone bad....

 So I was thinking of replacing it, but getting a good capicitor here may be problem, I don't know of any high end audio shops nearby and also don't know of any online store which ship in my country...
 But I do have an bad AGP card with lots of Solid Aluminium Caps, so wanted to know, if I can replace that capicitor with this one...
 Or my bro. said he can arrange Philips Capicitors(i think they are commonly used in normal circuits), so which would be better choice solid Al Cap. from vid card or this philips cap?

 Also what about the rating, do I need to replace with exact rating, or it can be of different rating(higher)...

 Please let me know, a quick help would be appreciated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Regards,


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## balou

Quote:


 I don't know why, but audiophile-equipment companies all seem to be picking the Jamicons. Everything I buy has them these days. 
 

 seems like jamicons are the most "cost-effective" ( == cheapest ) caps on the market 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 TheMafioso: yes, you can use higher rated caps. you could even use lower microfarad caps, but that wouldn't be wise.

 higher microfarad caps means better filtering... for example, I switched a 100uF filtering cap in a phono preamp with a 2200uF one I had laying around - noise floor was audibly lower. but more than 1000uF is probably overkill, even 470uF should be a good value

 some may argue that using caps with higher voltage rating is useless - but it has one advantage: caps in the same series usually have lower ESR with higher voltage rating.

 so my advise would be - search for the highest capacitance cap you can find which has at least 16v rating


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## Joshatdot

I plan on re-capping my AV-710 with 22uF & 470uF Nichicon PW's


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## TheMafioso

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *balou* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_seems like jamicons are the most "cost-effective" ( == cheapest ) caps on the market 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 TheMafioso: yes, you can use higher rated caps. you could even use lower microfarad caps, but that wouldn't be wise.

 higher microfarad caps means better filtering... for example, I switched a 100uF filtering cap in a phono preamp with a 2200uF one I had laying around - noise floor was audibly lower. but more than 1000uF is probably overkill, even 470uF should be a good value

 some may argue that using caps with higher voltage rating is useless - but it has one advantage: caps in the same series usually have lower ESR with higher voltage rating.

 so my advise would be - search for the highest capacitance cap you can find which has at least 16v rating_

 

Thanx....Well I changed the Cap with a philips 1000uF one and the soundcard now works perfectly...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thanx the thread starter....gr8 work...i suggest this thread be made sticky, its got neat piece of info...certainly saved my $80 investment


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## trodas

*balou* -  Quote:


 using caps with higher voltage rating is useless - but it has one advantage: caps in the same series usually have lower ESR with higher voltage rating 
 

Oh, the old die-hard myth again! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now please let me explain why this is dead-wrong. The lower ESR are with the higher voltage caps JUST because they use higher voltage = less resistance with the very same technology.

*You lose all the lower ESR benefits if you use a 16V cap to filter a 1.2V voltage for the main X-Fi chip...!*

 In fact, you end up much worser that using a 6.3V or 4V cap in the first place.

 Remember, the specs for the cap are measured and calculated for the nominal voltage. Using the very same cap on 1/10 of the nominal voltage = having notably worser specs.
 Todays they did not disclose how much worser, and it is not exactly 1/10 of the specs, but it is probably a quite considerable loss of specs.

 While the capacity will be at 1/10 of rated voltage still like 70 or 80% of the nominal capacity, the ESR will be likely 2 to 5x higher. The ESL probably did not increase but decrease with voltage, but I'm not sure about it.

 To put long story short - using cap for the best is using it as close to it's nominal voltage, as possible - leaving a small headroom for spikes, of course.

*Entierly different thing is, when we talk about audio!* For good audio passing is necessary to have a bit "soft" specs, hence using 25 or 50V caps for passing a 0,5 - 1,5V audio signals usually yield good results.

 But the main 220uF filtering cap on the X-Fi filter just a voltage for a digital part of the card - the main chip - so take a look at the specs of the voltage regulator ( TPS54352 - http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352 ) and you realize that now a much low-ESR cap is (surprisingly) designed to be there, but something around with a 1500 - 1800mA ripple 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So like a Panny FC 10V 1800 - 2200uF or a Samxon RS 10V 3300uF will probably be best. Extra low-ESR caps there like Os-con polymers cause ringing and worser results that even the original Jamicon crap:



 There you have proof 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 So this what I also did:




 ...is a bad idea and it cause voltage fluctuations even higher that the original Jamicon crap...


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## trodas

*cotdt* -  Quote:


 BTW, the best and most expensive DACs also use Jamicons. I don't know why, but audiophile-equipment companies all seem to be picking the Jamicons. Everything I buy has them these days. They lose their capacitance very quickly, and develop high ESL over time. 
 

What?! Are you serious about it?
 The most expensive DACs cost fortune and I would never can afford it, and you are telling me, that they used the crap Jamicon caps, that are neither good caps, nor audio caps and definitively not low-ESR caps?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 They are asking for class lawsuit.
 Using knowingly wrong components that are proven to die in time is cheating customers - or robing then blind.

 I played with X-Fi, about 3 months old, Quake 4. In one scene, in the huge elevator near the end, there was so many sounds (many enemies) at once playing and the game freeze.
 Next time it manage it, also because I first fired there many grenades and stuff first...

 Then I played Prey and in the start, when I was chasing my girl still chained to the feeder and there was the alien in the control + MANY other sounds at once, the game freeze. I jumped, pulled X-Fi from machine, recapped 3 caps (220uF Jamicon -> 470uF Panny FM, 47uF Jamicons -> 220uF Panny FM) and then player and finished Prey w/o a glitch, including the particular scene played again.

 So, it is not just the sound. It is the stability as well.


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## Chu

I really am not going to go out on a limb to defend soundblaster, since they have some ugly ugly things in their history and absolutely not reason to believe their business practices have changed -- but how many of those caps are actually in the analogue single path?


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## Fizzycapola

It surprises me to see Sanyo Oscons performing so badly. I wonder what series they are?


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## trodas

*Chu* -  Quote:


 absolutely not reason to believe their business practices have changed 
 

You speak the truth. They are, well, crooks.

  Quote:


 but how many of those caps are actually in the analogue single path? 
 

I count 24. 16 of these decoupling caps - C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68 and 8pcs of caps where the audio signal also exist - C18, C19, C20, C21, C48, C49, C102, C104.


*Fizzycapola* - you should not be surprised, if you readed the TI PS54352 datasheed. The voltage regulator favor mild ESR caps, not low ESR ones, just a mediocre ones. Or it oscilate more. That was what happen when I used Oscon SEPC 820uF 2,5V.
 Bad ideas. I should also read first.
 That is also why when I soldered there a Samxon RS 3300uF 16V cap the card stop working 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Even RS series of Samxons are not exactly low-ESR caps, more like slightly better general use, they stop the regulator from working well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (that means their specs is MUCH and WAY better that all the stuuupid caps mod people around here did, see there: Pictures/links to crazy cap mods - Chitchat - CapsMod Forum - Powered by Discuz!



 So, the volage regulation for the main X-Fi chip is made by *TI PS54352* chip.
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
 The recommended use is this:






 From this is quite obvious, that Creative design is very bellow specs one and for example - the imput filtering elyte capacity should be at least 100uF and as close to the chip a 10uF (at least) ceramics low-ESR cap. The Creative imput filtering elyte are 22uF Jamicon (!) and I did not yet measure the ceramic one, but I fear it is not "at least" 10uF as it should be.
 Measured 15uF. I should desolder it, I think I measure something else with it also...

 Same for the output. I see bulk capacity there, a 330uF elyt, 100uF another low esr cap and 0,1uF ceramics. Creative used a 220uF Jamicon witch is not low ESR cap in any way, shape or form...

 So now it is clear, why I get the best results with mediocre 470uF Panny FM 16V cap (mediocre because using 16V cap on 1.25V a "bit" soften it's specs) with bridged 4,7uF ceramics are best and why the ultra-low-ESR polymer was not a great there.

 My fault. Now I also going to replace the imput filtering "bulk" capacity - by Creative 22uF 16V Jamicon - by me a 150uF 6.3V Nichicon HE :dev: Yet the usage of 470uF Panny FM bridged with 0,1uF ceramic cap is not so great also. I still having the "pause bug"...


 Considering what might cause the "pause bug" I do wonder, how well Creative followed up the DAC recommended connections:
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDat.../CS4382_F1.pdf














 PS. I just replaced the there output opamps from the old useless (they was used even in Audigy (1) !!!) MC4558C ( MC4558CD datasheet pdf datenblatt - STMicroelectronics - WIDE BANDWIDTH DUAL BIPOLAR OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIERS ::: ALLDATASHEET ::: ) to the praised LM4562 ( LM4562 datasheet pdf datenblatt - National Semiconductor - Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier ::: ALLDATASHEET ::: ) opamps. It was kinda easy, however the changes are minimal. You cannot hear any difference in mp3 bellow 320kBi, that is for sure. When we talking about DTS 768kBi, well, ten there finally is some difference 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But not so major. It is obvious that complete recap of the Jamicon crap caps has to be done as well, as the audiojacks has to be gold-plated for the subwoofer connection, the whole subwoofer has to be recapped and possibly modified also, so there is a notable difference.

 Ask the Nartional Semiconductor for there sample pieces of the LM4562MA in the SOIC NARROW version for free there:
LM4562 - Dual High Performance, High Fidelity Audio Operational Amplifier
 And you can replace the there 4558 "things" used for the output channels :dev: There is also another opamps for mic in, line in and some more down there... So maybe a 6 opamps is not a bad idea.


 PS2. parts list for SB0460 - X-FI Fatal1ty:
RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting
 parts list for SB0550 - X-FI Elite Pro:
RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting
 ...a good start 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A few interesting (but not mine, Bichi's work) X-Fi mod pictures:


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## trodas

*Why not use tantalum caps*
http://www.hindawi.com/GetPDF.aspx?d...08827510212341
*Read conclusion about noise in tantalum cap*
 The most important sources of fluctuation consist in regenerative microbreaks, fluctuation of polarisation and mechanical strain. The frequency dependence of noise spectral density in mHz region gives information on slow irreversible processes of tantalum pentoxide crystal-isation and oxide reduction. The self-healing process can improve sample quality due to leak-age current and noise reduction. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Or there:
Low Noise Balanced Microphone Preamp
*I also recommend against the use of tantalum capacitors, and regular readers will notice that I have not suggested them for any project* (although there was one suggestion that you could use them if you wanted to). The only capacitor fault I have ever had to track down with an intermittent short circuit was a tantalum bead type - it was neither fun, nor easy to find 



 So, using tantalum caps in X-Fi are bad idea, alrough they might look as good choice at first and I must admit, I was considered them at first as well, but then I looked more deeply and contacted experts and they all recommended against it.


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## trodas

I made progress. I took my time and skills and measured the voltage by scope on ALL the X-Fi caps. Hard work, but there we go:





 In picture it looks this way - green are caps that has audio on them with stereo output, WinAMP playing...

  Code:


```
[left]C177 (1.23V) - 220uF 16V Jamicon -> 1000uF 6.3V Samxon GC C16 (0.7V) - 100uF 16V Jamicon -> 470uF 6.3V Samxon GD C46 (5V) - 100uF 16V Jamicon -> 470uF 6.3V Samxon GD C107 (4.7V) - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C186 (5V) - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM C205 (0V) - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM C20 (2.47V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C33 (3.3V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C56 (-5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C72 (-5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C74 (12V) - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 68uF 16V Panny FM C75 (-12V) - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 68uF 16V Panny FM C101 (5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C114 (5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C124 (3.3V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C172 (5V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C206 (0V) - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM C209 (0V) - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM C27 (5V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C43 (8.8V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 100uF 10V Panny FM C91 (5V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C108 (2.16V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C115 (2.4V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C119 (3.3V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C123 (2.3V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C136 (5V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C151 (3.3V) - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM C18 (2.4V aud) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C19 (0V aud) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C21 (2.39 aud) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C22 (2.47) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C48 (2.26V) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C49 (2.26V) - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V C102 (2.4V aud) - 4.7uF 50V Jamicon -> Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V C104 (2.4V aud) - 4.7uF 50V Jamicon -> Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V Remove and short 16x 22uF 16V Jamicon decoupling caps - C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68. It is possible to remove all the marked with green audio caps C18, C19, C21, C22, C48, C49, C102 and C104 if you did not use the AUX IN analog 2 channel CD in and the 10 pins Creative connector, for witch the 6 pcs of the bipolar caps are used to separate the AC3 6 channels signal (5.1). 35 caps total ------------- 1x Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V (d8) 2x Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V (d6.3) 1x Panny FM 100uF 10V (d5) P12919-ND 4x Panny FM 47uF 25V (d5) P12923-ND 2x Panny FM 68uF 16V (d5) P12921-ND 17x Panny FM 150uF 6.3V (d5) P12917-ND 6x Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit 2x Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit[/left]
```


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## kipman725

great work if I had an x-fi I would be most pleased by your reaserch. Although now that I don't have one I definatly don't want one! 

 another reason not to use tantalum is that they are not allowed to be used in satalights due to the high faliure rate and mining tantalum destroys the rainforest.


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## splaz

Errr... I've always thought tantalum are a lot more reliable than aluminum electrolytics as long as you're a bit generous with voltage specs and make sure they don't see any reverse voltage.

 Maybe I've been lied to, but from what I've learned/been told, tantalums are pretty much superior in every way, including reliability as long as they're not stressed with high or reverse voltage, their only real downside being cost and possible ethical concerns ?

 Although the problem is if they do fail, they fail short circuit...


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## trodas

*kipman725* - thank you, I hope others find my informations usefull. I try my best.
 As for tantalums, they are simply wrong to use for audio, witch is the IMHO most important reason. Mentioning their irreversible changes and what happen when they fail I see as not that relevant.
 It is also a good question what cap production destroy nature the most. I would say elytes, because given the wast volume of fake bad caps that are made, they must definitively have huge impact. Where tantalum caps are very rare sight.
 Regardless, the new polymer tantalums seems to be pretty good ones. But don't be fooled by moders who already wasted their cards with tantalums - altough they used Kemet tantalums, and Kemet made these new ones, they did not use the polymer tantalums. Why? Because Kemet made only SMD version of them, not the dip ones, so...
 Regardless - best cap is no cap.

 Since with my limited english I can't top quote like this, I use it:
  Quote:


 Only the most starry-eyed audiophile will tell you that putting electrolytics in an audio signal path is a good idea, if there is some other solution that will work. 
 

X-Fi with Panny FC caps - definitively a improve over the cursed bad caps Jamicons:





 X-Fi w/o decoupling caps at all - sounds notably better that with Pannyes:






*splaz* -  Quote:


 Maybe I've been lied to 
 

You have been lied to. Please read the linked documents to educate yourself. I'm not going to quote it all there for you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS. have you ever asked how come, if the tantalums are so superior, you did not see them on overclocking mainboards at all as the small caps witch are many times very important...?


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## trodas

*Interesting discovery!*

 I had enought of waiting and I decided to test, if the d6.3 caps (remember, the original ones are just d4) will fit there. So I took my poor X-Fi (I wish I get my hand on some dead X-Fi for this testings, but...) and started soldering on it again, even when I did not have to caps in my hands yet, sadly.

 So, I desoldered them all and cleaned the holes nicely, because I knew I will solder them right back, but first I need to test the d6.3 caps there...






 So far, so good. Then I get the caps - I picked up a 8 pcs of - luckily to still have a few of them here and there - 120uF 16V Panny FM caps that are d6.3 - tought they are not bipolar and not audio caps either, but I was not going to solder them there - I just wanted to made some progress and to make sure we can fit a d6.3 caps there... So I just stick them thru:






 And they fit! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hoooray!

 Another pic:






 And then I make the most important discovery yet. I suspected that before, but I was not sure. These 6 bipolar caps are for the Creative 10-pin connector 6 in/out channels separation.
 The two ones are not bipolar, but normal caps and they are for decoupling of the CD-in (AUX IN) input.

 This might not sound so important to you yet, but... I asked myself "What if I did not even use these connectors?" "Do I really need the caps there at all, or for the BEST possible quality is better to get rid of them completely?"

 I mean - there is one thing better that good audio cap in the passing of audio signal. And that is wire - or no cap in this case.

 So out of a pure luck and based just on a intuition I tried the X-Fi w/o these caps and quess what - it played and playing well still! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







*This is an important solution and very cheap audio improvement only for people who not use either of these connectors!*

 Amazingly and not unsurprisingly, once the Jamicons are out of the audio loop now completely, the detail level in music increased hearably once again.
 However there is a side issue to that improvement. Now I can hear some compression distortions even at 320kBi, witch is considered as very high bitrate! Also, any more importantly, many many and many my mp3 music files contain some slight errors in music, that are now also possible to hear well...

 In short, you might want to consider doing these mods (I'm being very frank here) because you will hear more that you might wish to hear


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## holland

Trodas, some of your pictures in post #31 looks like Bichi's work in this thread http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ho...no-56k-226975/ . I'm a big fan of giving credit where credit is due, and loathe people that take credit from others. I hope that's not what I'm seeing here.


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## trodas

Not some, all the thumbnails in fact 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm not against giving credits where it belongs either, but I must admit that I forget to menion guy that openly vows how he would ignore me and never help me, not to mention posting my private comments in the open forum.
 Bad thing, tough. Fixed


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## ACE 256

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*Interesting discovery!*

 I had enought of waiting and I decided to test, if the d6.3 caps (remember, the original ones are just d4) will fit there. So I took my poor X-Fi (I wish I get my hand on some dead X-Fi for this testings, but...) and started soldering on it again, even when I did not have to caps in my hands yet, sadly._

 

I have two X-FI extreme music cards that I got off a friend of mine who messed them up attempting the X-FI mod. I will give you one for testing if you can fix (and mod) the other. Or we can work out some other kind of arrangement. PM me back if your interested, they have just been sitting on my shelf for a fue months collecting dust and im wanting to do something with them. Edit: I meant to put this in a PM 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 oh well its here now.


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## trodas

Well, I got your PM, you got my reply 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 There is, unfortunately, no telling if I can repare at least one of these cards or not. I'm not God, just mere human that screw things up sometimes even all by himself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 So, no guarantee there at all.
 Of course there is nothing to lose on two already damaged cards, lol... But I'm from central Europe, so... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 PS. some people wrote me PM asking about few things, so I threw them there as well:

  Quote:


 As you said from your thread here, you bypass all the 6 bipolar caps if you don't use the AUD_EXT is that correct? 
 

False. Perhaps my english is too limited (not my native language either) or I explained it wrong, but... I did not bypass them. I removed them and the sound is notably more rich in details 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 No wonder. Last thing you want to stay between you and your audio is bad caps Jamicons.

 Correct is, that this make useless the 10 pin connector.

  Quote:


 What about the other two polarized caps beside the AUD_EXT, you short them too? 
 

Not short. Remove. Yes, These are for the CD audio input, AUX_IN is the connector even named, and if you did not use them, well... off they go. Quite possibly they are connected to the 10 pin one too, but I not use any of these, so... I did not even bother to check.

 As long as they are off the audio loop, I'm happy.

  Quote:


 Another question, I want to tap 12V from the card to the opamp 
 

I recommend very much against this.
 Many reasons.
 To list just a few:
 1) is is useless mod, all you gain in audio signal strenght will be lost on your potentiometer into your aplifier
 2) 12V cause notably more heat-buildup and hence more noise/distortions
 3) the 12V line is not stabilized/filtered well, witch add to these noise/distoritions problems greatly
 4) at the 12V, the opamps are going to draw over twice the amount of current, hence the stabilizing capacitor(s) are now more that twice underrated and for space limitations and by the design - this is going to cause huge problems with voltge stability...
 If the subwoofer opamps play hard, then since the wires did not get 2x thicker that the original ones and there is not cap at the end one, then the most important L and R channels are going to not have stable voltage at all... There should be a 470uF Samxon GD cap near every of the opamp, but...
 5) the little ceramic caps near the voltage inputs are probably not even rated at 16V, chances are they are 10V or 6.3V ones. This mod kill them, hence the voltage fluctuations will be even more dramatic, causing distortions.

 Just to mention a few problems with this mod.

  Quote:


 I want to use LME49720 on this card, the max voltage for this opamp is 17V, and the spec is better if I supply more volts to it 
 

Only if you can keep the voltage clean and stable and that it is, when all 4 opamps are in operation.
 Believe me, with current design, that is not going to happen.
 I considered this mod, I considered even a very little version of it - increasing the UA78M05C output voltage from 5V to 6.3V by adding a resistor between the 7805 base and ground...
 When I realized that the already overstressed voltage supply to the opamps is going to get even more stressed, I drop this idea as bad.

 Not all caps are best when low ESR, for example the main voltage regulator is not very happy with too low ESR caps, but that is sort of odd thing


----------



## Apocalypsee

Hey trodas, thanks for the long explanation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Now I almost done with the mod. What I done is basically what you done, but I didn't use any opamp at all plus I use 1000uF 16V Sanyo WG. 

 It sounded great, but there are some side effects when I use no opamp, firstly it wasn't that loud as before and everytime I adjust the volume too much there is power spike shutting down my amplifier, so I guess I'll put LME49720 after all

 There are few more mods I wanted to do. I'll report later


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## trodas

Final look - the thread should be renamed to "X-Fi holocaust", as I removed everything I did not use/like 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Bad caps Jamicons are OFF my machine, HOOORAY! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The dynamic seems to be improved slightly, but that could be just in my head...
 However replacing the suxxking Jami-crap working as DAC voltage stabilization and be connected on the FILT+ pin COULD change/improve the sound...
 (bear in mind that my audio output AFTER the X-Fi is reasonably suxxking low-end one, and I did not have so good ears... so maybe someone else spot much more noticable difference - or dismis my claim of slight improvment there)










 Voltage stabilizing for opamps is very important.





 Voltage filtering for the main X-Fi chip 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 Useless stuff is gone now.





 Better voltage stabilization for the Wolfson audio codec can't hurt too  

 X-Fi holocaust 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 removed everything I did not use 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 PS. moders should rather consider rather AD8599 opamps, it has much better audio: Analog Devices AD8599 - Dual, Ultralow Distortion, Ultralow Noise Op Amp


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## Apocalypsee

Whoa! cool mod there Trodas 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but I don't want to left my card bare. I changed most of the caps too, but on unimportant plus on Wolfson ADC I just leave it alone since I don't use them anyway

 One more mod you can try, is to bypass the muting transistor, I bypass the whole circuit and directly connect them to RCA out from opamp output, sounded a little better too. I done this because my left channel got distortion (full of spikes at high frequency), with this circuit bypass, it sounded better and the spikes is gone


----------



## trodas

Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I like to keep my card as bare, as possible and use only things I use 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I hope this would give me the best audio quality 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 bypass the muting transistor 
 

Hmmm! All in all, this is not a bad idea either. The card is "muted" till the drivers did not kick in and unmute it, that is the audio "click" or more likely a "wave" that bumps when windowns load the drivers...

 I quess you did not hear that now, because your output is all the time open, right?

 When bypassing them, one lose the ability to mute the card by software (or by the front pannel/remote), but come to think, I never need that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Rarely I use the mute button on remote of my speakers.

 So maybe there is really a time to check on these components ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 I done this because my left channel got distortion (full of spikes at high frequency), with this circuit bypass, it sounded better and the spikes is gone 
 

It is likely that during the opamps soldering you produced (or it was there from the start?) a shortcircuit that when on load, produced various disconnections and reconnections that you hear as the high-frequency spikes and distortions.
 Simply resoldering the left channel muting transistor would be sufficient to get the bugs out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for the muting transistors - do you know what are they?
 The gang of 6 of them on the top of the card, just above C19 and C18 seems to me more like transistors to shutting down the 10 pin Creative connector in/out signals?

 The four ones in front if the L/R opamps are only four...

 What are these six 02Nf "things" with six legs before the opamps anyway?


----------



## Apocalypsee

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hmmm! All in all, this is not a bad idea either. The card is "muted" till the drivers did not kick in and unmute it, that is the audio "click" or more likely a "wave" that bumps when windowns load the drivers...

 I quess you did not hear that now, because your output is all the time open, right?

 When bypassing them, one lose the ability to mute the card by software (or by the front pannel/remote), but come to think, I never need that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Rarely I use the mute button on remote of my speakers.

 So maybe there is really a time to check on these components ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I eliminate shutdown and boot up 'click' by opening my amp after Windows load 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Software mute still working for me, I tested it more just now, yeah I heard things I never heard before, most notably on background (ambience) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is likely that during the opamps soldering you produced (or it was there from the start?) a shortcircuit that when on load, produced various disconnections and reconnections that you hear as the high-frequency spikes and distortions.
 Simply resoldering the left channel muting transistor would be sufficient to get the bugs out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nope its there even on stock, I have a picture here The top one is modded but BEFORE it have any distortion problems, the bottom one is what currently I do, using RCA out directly from opamp out

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As for the muting transistors - do you know what are they?
 The gang of 6 of them on the top of the card, just above C19 and C18 seems to me more like transistors to shutting down the 10 pin Creative connector in/out signals?_

 

Hmm, yeah looks like it, I sense you gonna remove them are you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trodas* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What are these six 02Nf "things" with six legs before the opamps anyway? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

You mean after the opamp on surround opamp? I don't know, maybe different type of muting capacitor


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## Apocalypsee

Here's my card now. I named it PureMusic™, since there is no opamp to 'color' the music. Since I have limited small value capacitor that high quality, I use Elna bipolar 10uF 25V with 0.47uF Phillips MKT as bypass. The bass rolloff is quite obvious, at 20Hz is -13dB while 40Hz is -4dB. Y eah the card is very messy, but at least it sounds nice


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## trodas

Quote:


 Software mute still working for me 
 

Of course. The main chip just stop supply the DAC with data, that is easy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 Nope its there even on stock, I have a picture here The top one is modded but BEFORE it have any distortion problems, the bottom one is what currently I do, using RCA out directly from opamp out 
 

Interesting. So, how do you fixed that? Just getting rid of opamps and the muting transistors and taking the signal directly from DAC?
 Maybe it is a time to recap these poor failing Jamicons... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 The gang of 6 of them on the top of the card, just above C19 and C18 seems to me more like transistors to shutting down the 10 pin Creative connector in/out signals? 
 

 Quote:


 Hmm, yeah looks like it, I sense you gonna remove them are you 
 

Not if they are not going anywhere near the signal path 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And they did not seems to do so.

 Or maybe I measured it just wrong?

  Quote:


 What are these six 02Nf "things" with six legs before the opamps anyway? 
 

 Quote:


 You mean after the opamp on surround opamp? I don't know, maybe different type of muting capacitor 
 

No, I mean the components on witch I can measure direct connection to the output jacks. Probably sort of muting transistors, but... I have no idea.


 The muting of the output transistors is interesting idea. I think it is a fair trade to trade the clicks when drivers is loading AND when switching the audio modes for the higher detail level, don't you agree?

 However I seen just this image:




 That says it bypass them, however there is two main problems.
 1) it is only for the L and R channels, while I need to take care about six channels - L, R, RL, RR, CENTER and SUB.
 2) tracing the pins of the transistors back to the opamps output (pins 1 and 7) show no connection at all to those shorted pins!

 Anyone know where the output from pins 1 and 7 of the opamps really go? The mod definitively connect well the output, but the input is wrong...

 And what about the other channels?!

 Here is a little drawing of what I checked to be true - X-Fi jacks connection






 Any help/ideas? What I did overlook?


 PS. your card looking that a bit hardcore modding was done to her! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But if that helps, then so far, so good.


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## trodas

*Removing X-Fi muting transistors.*

 Having transistors in the audio loop is definitively a big NO-NO, just go ask any audiophile of Hi-Fists and he did not even need to be an extreme one to tell you this. So, I concentrated my efforts this way. First I produced this picture of what is short direct contact on my X-Fi Fatal1ty: http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps_outputs.jpg

 And todays I go deeper. It is same for each output. After opamp, there is a 33ohm resistor to protect the opamp from shortcut on the end. It has minimal impact on the signal, so, keep it. Later there are two muting transistors, for the positive and negative flow:






 And after them a two small caps to the ground to kill the possible high frequency interference. For L and R channels the card utilize 4 separate transistors. For the rest a dual transistor is used to save space - two (or coudl that be four?) ones in one.

 Regardless, the removal is rather easy. First get rid of them:







 Then solder a shorts there:











 ...and you are free to test them. As you probably noticed, I for the work desolder the C46 and C27. And also as you sure noticed, I replaced the LM4562 opamps with AD8599 ones.


*The results.*
 After hearing the sound, I was like "Holly ****...!"
 There is no words to describe how much better it sounds. The oversharped thick sound of the LM4562 is gone (LM4562 also like to pick a lot RFI) and the sound is rich and full - and yet more detailed - very likely thanks to these muting transistors removed!

 Fantastic change, damn I'm glad I did it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*Side-effects.*
 As everything in life, there is a price for this. Not only this is NOT easy mod (do NOT try that, unless you are soldering MASTER, and I'm not kidding) but it also has consequences. Not only you want to delete all, even the 320kBi mp3 files now, but upon the driver loading in windows boot, there is notable click in the speakers. Same when changing audio mode. Not louder that the amp is set for, so a minor price for such wonderfull, rich sound.
 There is a bigger price and I was quick to discover it.
 I remember it well from measuring the voltages on the caps on X-Fi. When I touch the opamps, well, then the X-Fi started to oscilate like MAD and the resulting sound noise, even on small testing speakers, are unbearable.
 So, to get to it - I plug my rear speakers into the SUB/CENTER jack, so upon discovering that, I was like fixing this. So I unplug the jack... and the moment it started. The X-Fi, no longer protected with these muting transistors, start oscilating like mad. From all 6 speakers it output SO horrible noise and SO strong, that it was like when F18 is about to land on your head.
 I can't remember anything comparable in my life.
 My stepbro run to my room asking What... so you get the picture.
The oscilating noise, when you change your speakers, does not stop till reboot.

 For me it is fair price to pay. I just can't now hotplug the speakers of fiddle with them "on the fly", like I used to. This is kinda sad and limiting, but what one can do. I'm ceratainly not going to put these cursed transistors back, no way. I love the sound now _way_ too much.


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## trodas

*About AD8599 opamp*
 (testing made my friend, imperialreign, who have tad better ears that me and take music really seriously)

 Fatal1ty with LM4562





 Fatal1ty with AD8599





 I ran the AD8599 tests 4-times each to make sure of those results - comparatively, the AD8599 allows for a better dynamic range at all testing levels, compared to the LM4562... it might only be an average difference of -2dbA, but for such a small component that's a lot...

 THD and IMD+N results for the AD8599 are very-slightly better, the most improvement difference, though is at 16bit playbacks; coupled with the slightly higher dynamic range, I'd conclude as well that these OPAMPs aren't as affected by EMI as the LM4562.

 Also of note - the AD8599 rated better at stereo crosstalk than the LM4562... meaning there's less channel bleeding.

 TBH, the AD8599 sounds the same to me now as it did after first installation (surprisingly). I really also dig how they sound compared to the LM4562 as well; the 4562 OPAMPs produce some very sharp frequencies that I personally found to be annoying at times. The 8599 has a lot warmer sound, IMO it has a lot more depth to it.

 For the cheaper price, I'd say it ousts the 4562.


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with original UK X-Fi, no heatsink and L+R channel NJM4556 opamp, rest NJM4558 opamps*
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
 L: 29.9mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 R: 29.6mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 RL: 0mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 RR: 0mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 CENTER: 0.2mV DC, 9.6mV AC
 SW: 0.2mV DC, 9.7mV AC


 ******************************
 The 9 - 10mV AC is a classic noise, around 5kHz. What is interesting is the VERY LOW DC offset on RL/RR as well as on CENTER/SUB channels of the original X-Fi (yours), while the L/R show around 30mV of DC offset, so not perfect at all, even at default. Looks like the X-Fi electronic design is perfectly finetuned for a NJM4558 (very low, next to none DC offset), while any other opamp is a "misfit" there. I think I should short the coupling caps between DAC and opamps first and then measure DC offset again with the original 4558 opamps...
 ******************************


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring original UK X-Fi, shorted DAC - opamps caps*
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
 L: -179.4mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 R: -204.5mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 RL: -222.9mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 RR: -232.2mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 CENTER: -225.2mV DC, 9.6mV AC
 SW: -238.9mV DC, 9.7mV AC


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with LM4562 opamps*
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
 L: -190mV DC, 10mV AC
 R: -174mV DC, 10.2mV AC
 RL: -210.2mV DC, 10.1mV AC
 RR: -204.7mV DC, 10mV AC
 CENTER: -209.5mV DC, 10mV AC
 SW: -231.9mV DC, 10.2mV AC


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with AD8599 opamps*
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
 L: -219mV DC, 9.5mV AC
 R: -205mV DC, 9.8mV AC
 RL: -209mV DC, 9.7mV AC
 RR: -205mV DC, 9.3mV AC
 CENTER: -210mV DC, 9.6mV AC
 SW: -232mV DC, 9.7mV AC


 A word about the DC offset.

  Quote:


 maybe it's not safe to remove the coupling capacitors 
 

Maybe it is not safe to live on Earth 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Got my point?
 Nothing is safe, ever. However the X-Fi did not have by default ANY cap between the opamps output and the jacks. So...

 And the main point is, that the DC offset is neutralized on the amplifier input coupling caps. So nothing to worry about.

 Unless you have custom amp with stripped input coupling caps, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. It can only make your sound nicer and more detailed.

 In some cases the input caps in the amplifier aren't even need to be there, depending on the amp input opamps and their gain versus voltage. If the gain is low and voltages high, the DC offset is just amplified like the rest of the signal and that it is. No clipping happen then. But it is wise to let one last coupling cap to have in the input of power amplifier... if you did not want end up with like 16V DC offset on the speakers


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## trodas

My modification of X-Fi Fatal1ty, UK edition w/o heatsink on main chip and with caps wires bent to sides and then soldered from the bottom of the PCB for user Tez, Head-Fi forum:














































 ...and his card is working just great!


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## Tez

Thanks trodas, it looks great! Can't wait to hear it


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## gurusan

looks liek very nice work trodas


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## trodas

Thank you, guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





*Additional infos*

 If you remove all the eight audio caps, you won't be able to do a RMAA measuring using loopback cable, since the input jack will not work anymore. So, to make it work, you gotta add a C48 and C49 caps. The original are bipolar 4.7uF 50V Jamicons. I used audio quality polypropylene film caps to replace them, 4.7uF 63V MKT ones (Digi-key order number 495-1131-ND ):






 And then I can make my first RMAA test: http://ax2.old-cans.com/X-Fi%20Fatal...ps%2024_48.htm

 It is much better that trying to pass the -200mV DC offset right back to the input: http://ax2.old-cans.com/X-Fi%20Fatality%20NOCAPS.htm






 ...


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## S3am

Trodas, thanks for interesting tweak-log. I have some questions for you. I'm using Audigy2 Value (almost the same as Audigy4, whis has about 4 caps more than value). 

 1. Why did you remove the heatsink? Only to make photos?

 2. I have a pair of Rubycon MBZ 1000 uF 10V. Are they good caps to be placed on SoundCard? Also have some Hitano EXR 1000\6.3, but they are used and too old. Black Gate and HQ PolyPropilen isnt problem too, but if it possible, i want to spend low $amount, cause it is easier and more usefull to buy ESI Juli@ or Prodigy HD2 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I cant find any big caps near the main DSP chip as on X-Fi, so can you help me to find DSP filter caps.

 3. I also want to short-in the mute keys, but as i see it uses two 3pins transistor, so which pins should be shorted?

 4. It 4 OpaAmps installed to A2V: 3*JRC 4558 and one 4556a. So, i think the last one used in front channels? What can You say abut replacing that with AD8066 ?

 5. Two main problems of my Audigy:
 5.1 It has annoyng scratches in FL channel, which has the same level at any Gain level. 
 5.2 The sound isnt comfortble at all. Even the radio sometimes sounds more blury, but more comfortable. Believe that tweaks helps withthis trouble.

 Photo of Audigy4:
http://www.abclinuxu.cz/images/scree...-pro-52208.jpg

 Also can make photos of different places on PCB if it neccesary.


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## S3am

Trodas, come back plz


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## trodas

1 - I did not remove the heatsink. The *Tez* X-Fi card just come w/o it. Probably a difference between US and UK sale versions? Dunno.

2 - I did not see any place on X-Fi for the Ruby MBC 1000uF cap... Maybe the Hitano could be used to the voltage filtering main cap, because it have a high ESR, but that it is. There are only DSP voltage filtering caps, near the voltage regulators. Not near the DSP, IIRC.

3 - I think the picture speak for itself and you have to short the colector to the emitor on the cap, not the base, lol.

4 - replace the opamps with any opamp you see fit. Anything is better that the oldies 4558...

5 - I do believe that your Audigy 4 card is just dying of bad caps pleague...

I wish I can come back sooner, but I can't. And I still have heap of other problems... and I do believe you trashed the card long time ago  Right?


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