# Dali Zensor 3s lacking bass



## Tadgh

Hello all,
  
 Today I finally got the amp to bring together my setup, which is as follows:
  
 Source file over USB to Steinburg UR22 interface
 6.3mm line out converted to mono and fed into amp
 Gemtune SMSL SA-50 amp (50watts a side)
 Dali Zensor 3s
  
 They do sound pretty wonderful at a vocal and above range - but they're missing a lot down below that. I can get them to produce low bass, and there's air being shot out the bass port - but it's very quiet. I got the Zensor 3s after a lot of research, and I know they're supposed to be full sounding speakers with a decent bottom end, and my listening environment is quite a small space that should be pretty easy to fill, the lack of bass is quite noticeable.
  
 The only thing I could suspect of causing this is the amp, but the amp outputs more than enough power for the Zensors, which are rated for 25-150watt amps. Could anyone offer any insight on this dilemma? I have heard of improved bass response after a break in period in amateur reviews, but I suspect the difference wouldn't be drastic enough to cover 'little bass to speak of into filled out'.
  
 Furthermore, if this is the amp - it's still a functional unit, and I don't have the money to buy another. I could try and scrimp something together, and I'd be willing to if I could, as I love me some good muzacks ( B) ), but what could I find at a scrimp-able price point?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Lenni

they're rear ported, so placing them at least half a metre away from back & side walls should improve bass response. Search speakers placement. They also may benefit from being put on stands. Other than that, you may need to get a sub.
  
 [edit] also give your ears sometime to get accustomed to the sound (burn-in).


----------



## Jupiterknight

I don't think changing amplifier will give you what you're looking for.  I have a pair of Zensor 3 and even when feeding them with a higher grade amplifier ( Marantz 5005), that I use in living room setup, I still feel they lack the bass performance below 80 Hz that you probably feel you are missing. The Zensor 3's are excellent speakers from the midrange and above, not only as near field speakers but also in smaller sized rooms.
  
 In my experience with the Zensor 3, burn in or placement/stands, won't change very much to increase their lower bass performance to what I "read" you feel you're lacking. But do give it time and experiment with placement, before you take any further steps that involves money....
  
 IMO. The best way to go is get a single sub woofer. In the price range $100-150 will be reasonable to spend in your particular setup.  
  
 I combine the Zensor 3 with a Martin Logan D300 ($120) in my office room, amplifier is an ancient NAD 3140 and that works very well for me.  The sub can be adjusted to give you the right amount of lower/sub bass that the Zensor 3 lacks.  I believe that this will be a better solution than buying a new amp, when you already have a fully functionally one! 
  
 There are other subs in the same price range, like Polk etc. that probably can do a similar performance for around the same price that you can check out. 
 .


----------



## Tadgh

lenni said:


> they're rear ported, so placing them at least half a metre away from back & side walls should improve bass response. Search speakers placement. They also may benefit from being put on stands. Other than that, you may need to get a sub.
> 
> [edit] also give your ears sometime to get accustomed to the sound (burn-in).


 
 Hmm, while I don't doubt your knowledge, DALI recommends 5-25cm clearance - I've given my pair a good 15/20cm clearance from the wall behind them, and 60/70 from the side walls. Placement and listening conditions aren't ideal but you're definitely thinking like I am with the stand and possible sub. I'm going to make my own concrete based stands for them soon as I have the materials for such an apparatus.

 I think the burn in might be a big factor in it, having read some more on forums about other user experiences with the Dalis a lot of people complain about them being very flat for the first week or two, and my sound engineer father reckons (having given them a listen) that a burn in might remedy the lack. 
  
 Down below I've linked a song and at 1:23 the bass drops and produces what I would define as "low bass", in your experiences can bookshelves produce those frequencies? (not in house shaking quantities, I understand the physics at play here but these Zensors are my first pair of modern 'hi fi' speakers and idk what to expect) - So long I can achieve those frequencies and have them proportionally audible I consider that a complete success, if not, I'll look into buying a sub 
  


jupiterknight said:


> I don't think changing amplifier will give you what you're looking for.  I have a pair of Zensor 3 and even when feeding them with a higher grade amplifier ( Marantz 5005), that I use in living room setup, I still feel they lack the bass performance below 80 Hz that you probably feel you are missing. The Zensor 3's are excellent speakers from the midrange and above, not only as near field speakers but also in smaller sized rooms.
> 
> In my experience with the Zensor 3, burn in or placement/stands, won't change very much to increase their lower bass performance to what I "read" you feel you're lacking. But do give it time and experiment with placement, before you take any further steps that involves money....
> 
> ...


 
 Hmm, interesting stuff, thanks for your input. Originally I was gonna get a pair of Diamond 9.1s and an SW150 sub, as I thought it physically impossible that bookshelf speakers could produce adequate low bass - however, having read of their bass-strong nature online I thought I'd spend the extra and go for a real kick ass pair of bookshelves before adding a sub.
  
 Well when referring to low bass I'm referring to the spectrum of bass that can be reasonably expected from a good pair of bookshelves IMO - my reference point is a pair of 7506s which provide adequate bass depth (if not control or presence) for me. Before I step into the grey area of trying to describe music with language, you can listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QuFmY5q_Ck - at 1:23 in the bass drops and deadmau5 brings out the wubs, that very low wubbing is barely audible with my Zensors, but is perfectly audible with my 7506s. Before you critique my choice of bookshelves to listen to EDM - I have a very diverse taste in music and I listen to a lot of music that doesn't really require low bass. I expect frequencies this low to be audible on the zensors - if not overwhelming or house shaking, am I expecting too much?
  
 Ooh, good to know your setup, how do you find it fits your taste? I will of course experiment with placement and stands first, as I have stands to build, and environment to totally change before they'll be in a position they'll stay in for a while. After this though, I might look at buying that SW150 or look for your D300 (if you say it sounds right, I'll trust you, as I have nowhere I can audition a speaker or sub, and have to buy blind).
  
 Good to meet a Zensor owner B) We can revel in our badassery


----------



## cel4145

tadgh said:


> The only thing I could suspect of causing this is the amp, but the amp outputs more than enough power for the Zensors, which are rated for 25-150watt amps.




That spec doesn't tell you what you think it does. 

How much power a speaker needs is dependent on the sensitivity/efficiency of the speaker, the distance from the speaker, and your listening volume. 



tadgh said:


> Well when referring to low bass I'm referring to the spectrum of bass that can be reasonably expected from a good pair of bookshelves IMO - my reference point is a pair of 7506s which provide adequate bass depth (if not control or presence) for me.




That is probably not be a good reference point. The Zensor 3s are rated 50 - 26,500, +/-3db, which means they could already be -6db down by 50hz (assuming Dali's specs are accurate, which is not always the case with speaker manufacturers--sometimes they exaggerate a bit). And then, because of the ported design, they may roll off from there very rapidly. Measurements of the 7506 I have seen suggest they are -6db at 40hz and have a somewhat shallower roll off than a ported speaker typically well. Then consider the room influence on low bass. Both placement and room size can affect perceived bass. 

Seems like you need a subwoofer.


----------



## Jupiterknight

tadgh said:


> Hmm, while I don't doubt your knowledge, DALI recommends 5-25cm clearance - I've given my pair a good 15/20cm clearance from the wall behind them, and 60/70 from the side walls. Placement and listening conditions aren't ideal but you're definitely thinking like I am with the stand and possible sub. I'm going to make my own concrete based stands for them soon as I have the materials for such an apparatus.
> 
> I think the burn in might be a big factor in it, having read some more on forums about other user experiences with the Dalis a lot of people complain about them being very flat for the first week or two, and my sound engineer father reckons (having given them a listen) that a burn in might remedy the lack.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I listened to your deadmau5 track and the low wubbing is clearly audible when I turn on the subwoofer.  The subwoofer level I have set fairly moderate around 50% of max and cutoff frequency around 85 hz since I feel the Z3 needs support from there and below of course.  If I increase the level the wubbing it obviously becomes stronger, but due to the size of the room and subwoofer placement I can't set it much higher than 70% before the walls, floors and a few other things starts moving, rattling and shaking...  In a perfect setup situation I would isolate and place the subwoofer better.
  
 In the long run you probably will end up getting a subwoofer, it really helps the Z3 without ruining what it does very well. I acquired the Z3's close to two years ago and two weeks later I added the subwoofer, which was planned when I bought the Z3's but it didn't take me long to find out that it was needed to get a more full/balanced sounding setup. I'm not a basshead in any way and most of my other audio stuff is relative neutral sounding and I hardly ever listen to EDM.  
  
 The SW150 you have been looking is around a decade old if I'm not wrong? So you might be able find a used one for cheap, like half price, or a good deal on a new one.


----------



## Tadgh

cel4145 said:


> That spec doesn't tell you what you think it does.
> 
> How much power a speaker needs is dependent on the sensitivity/efficiency of the speaker, the distance from the speaker, and your listening volume.
> That is probably not be a good reference point. The Zensor 3s are rated 50 - 26,500, +/-3db, which means they could already be -6db down by 50hz (assuming Dali's specs are accurate, which is not always the case with speaker manufacturers--sometimes they exaggerate a bit). And then, because of the ported design, they may roll off from there very rapidly. Measurements of the 7506 I have seen suggest they are -6db at 40hz and have a somewhat shallower roll off than a ported speaker typically well. Then consider the room influence on low bass. Both placement and room size can affect perceived bass.
> ...


 
 The speakers are 8Ohm, but my understanding of electrical engineering is a bit rough so when I talk about the amplification I'm really not to sure what I'm on about - thanks for the clarification 
  
 No, it's a pretty bad reference point honestly, but it's all I have and by jove it works as a basic comparison B). Hmm, it's the roll off that concerns me the most, it often feels like much more of a musical piece is missing than the specs would indicate when lower bass frequencies aren't present.. The room situation is soon to change, but it's very unideal right now. The speakers are around 20cm away from the back wall, on a terrible stand, and 30/35 cm away from the side walls. Once you get towards the back of the room it's an absolute bass trap xD. It's a very small room, maybe 3.5m x 2m.
  
 I would have to agree, and I'm looking into that currently.
  


jupiterknight said:


> I listened to your deadmau5 track and the low wubbing is clearly audible when I turn on the subwoofer.  The subwoofer level I have set fairly moderate around 50% of max and cutoff frequency around 85 hz since I feel the Z3 needs support from there and below of course.  If I increase the level the wubbing it obviously becomes stronger, but due to the size of the room and subwoofer placement I can't set it much higher than 70% before the walls, floors and a few other things starts moving, rattling and shaking...  In a perfect setup situation I would isolate and place the subwoofer better.
> 
> In the long run you probably will end up getting a subwoofer, it really helps the Z3 without ruining what it does very well. I acquired the Z3's close to two years ago and two weeks later I added the subwoofer, which was planned when I bought the Z3's but it didn't take me long to find out that it was needed to get a more full/balanced sounding setup. I'm not a basshead in any way and most of my other audio stuff is relative neutral sounding and I hardly ever listen to EDM.
> 
> The SW150 you have been looking is around a decade old if I'm not wrong? So you might be able find a used one for cheap, like half price, or a good deal on a new one.


 
 Wonderful, thank you, how does it sound on your Z3s without the sub? Having played music through my Z3s regularly over the past 3 or so days (maybe 20hrs usage?) I've noticed a decent improvement that holds true when compared to my cans (i.e. it's not in my head it seems) but I think your diagnosis is band on and I might be looking for a sub in the near future.
  
 Thank you for your input!


----------



## cel4145

tadgh said:


> The speakers are 8Ohm, but my understanding of electrical engineering is a bit rough so when I talk about the amplification I'm really not to sure what I'm on about - thanks for the clarification
> 
> No, it's a pretty bad reference point honestly, but it's all I have and by jove it works as a basic comparison B). Hmm, it's the roll off that concerns me the most, it often feels like much more of a musical piece is missing than the specs would indicate when lower bass frequencies aren't present.. The room situation is soon to change, but it's very unideal right now. The speakers are around 20cm away from the back wall, on a terrible stand, and 30/35 cm away from the side walls. Once you get towards the back of the room it's an absolute bass trap xD. It's a very small room, maybe 3.5m x 2m.




Well, the only way to get even lower bass response throughout a room is multiple subs 

Well placed to fit the room acoustics, of course.


----------



## Jupiterknight

tadgh said:


> Wonderful, thank you, how does it sound on your Z3s without the sub? Having played music through my Z3s regularly over the past 3 or so days (maybe 20hrs usage?) I've noticed a decent improvement that holds true when compared to my cans (i.e. it's not in my head it seems) but I think your diagnosis is band on and I might be looking for a sub in the near future.
> 
> Thank you for your input!


 
  
 I forgot to add that sometimes I actually turn the subwoofer off when I play music very loud or on particular albums where I don't feel I need the subwoofer because in the end it still add some coloration to the overall sound.  
  
 The size of your room is fairly small, so you might not need four subs in each corner  And in my experience try to keep the Z3's as far away for corners, you will get more bass, but not the kind you may like! Often with the small Dali monitors, you will get a better music imagining placing them close to rear wall, around 10-15 cm and on reasonable isolated stands where your perfect listening position would/could be with your ears placed at the similar level as the treble speaker.  Distance yourself around the same distance away as the length between left and right speaker, it may change with room shape, ceiling height etc. 
  
 The Z3's are the third pair of Dali monitor sized speakers I have owned + a pair of their floorstanding speakers. I have also heard many of their other speakers since that a one point was a possibility for me. 
  
 So I certainty think they more or less carry the Dali house sound. If you like it or not, that's only up to you!
  
 In my book it's a fairly neutral sound presentation that I seem to favor favor. With the other Dali models I had the possibility to audition in stores and compare with other similar sized speakers with my own preference of music, different brands, but I always preferred the Dali house sound.  They don't have a strong coloration or "rock'n roll" presentation as other speaker brands may have. I think they are fairly honest to almost any type of music you expose them to, then again, If you purely listened to EDM etc.  I probably wouldn't recommend them. 
  
 Out of pure memory I think the Z3's are an improvement over the earlier Dali models. Still neutral, but maybe more lifelike, detailed and also more capable of producing the feel of listening to much larger speakers and thereby even fill a fairly large room.  The Z3's are the first pair where I have gone out and purchased a sub for a Dali speaker, but then again I wouldn't put too much into that piece of insignificant info...
  
 Z3's looks and design, with the grill off, front plate and drivers makes them look much more expensive, at least that is how I see it.  That's something that IMO couldn't be truly said about their earlier budget monitor speakers!
  
 So in my relative new experience with a Dali speaker, I'm pleased with what Dali have done with the Z3's. 
  
 You can also try to use some EQ on the lower frequencies if you have the possibility to do so and maybe that could work for you.  On my Marantz amplifier they actually responded quite well when activating a loudness button, their bass response sounded fuller and deeper, no noticeable distortion or clipping but the treble response was little too much for my liking.  
  
 One more thing. I don't remember hearing any noticeable bass improvement (deeper or more) after I more or less ran them in.  On the contrary I felt the treble settled in from being a tad aggressive to sounding more smooth and thereby giving a better overall balance.


----------



## Tadgh

jupiterknight said:


> I forgot to add that sometimes I actually turn the subwoofer off when I play music very loud or on particular albums where I don't feel I need the subwoofer because in the end it still add some coloration to the overall sound.
> 
> The size of your room is fairly small, so you might not need four subs in each corner  And in my experience try to keep the Z3's as far away for corners, you will get more bass, but not the kind you may like! Often with the small Dali monitors, you will get a better music imagining placing them close to rear wall, around 10-15 cm and on reasonable isolated stands where your perfect listening position would/could be with your ears placed at the similar level as the treble speaker.  Distance yourself around the same distance away as the length between left and right speaker, it may change with room shape, ceiling height etc.
> 
> ...


 
 As soon as I move priority #1 is better speaker placement xD I can clearly discern the echo and bass resonance right now wherever in the room I am, flat walls for daaaayys. 
  
 So far I'm quite liking the Dali house sound, originally they sounded great for vocals but flat for pretty much all other aspects of music. Having used them more and re-positioned them a bit they're really coming out of their shells - sounding fuller. While the treble isn't as strong as I might like, maybe just a teeeny bit too smooth, it's worth it for the amazing rhythm and vocal musicality these things can put out. It's surprised me quite a lot, I'm not sure how one driver could be more rhythmical than another - but listening to hip-hop or rock or indie they have an amazingly methodical attack. I listened to Snoop Dogg - Doggystyle yesterday and the bloody *bounced* on the Dalis, it was almost hypnotic.
  
 Between the rhythm of the Dalis, their unbelievable voice reproduction, and their surprisingly well controlled bass response, I'm loving them - I'm sure a sub would do them some good though - I try to stay away from EQing my gear to avoid distortion!  I'm really looking forward to arranging a proper listening environment for them and getting to crank them up loud


----------



## Lilas

jupiterknight said:


> I forgot to add that sometimes I actually turn the subwoofer off when I play music very loud or on particular albums where I don't feel I need the subwoofer because in the end it still add some coloration to the overall sound.
> 
> The size of your room is fairly small, so you might not need four subs in each corner  And in my experience try to keep the Z3's as far away for corners, you will get more bass, but not the kind you may like! Often with the small Dali monitors, you will get a better music imagining placing them close to rear wall, around 10-15 cm and on reasonable isolated stands where your perfect listening position would/could be with your ears placed at the similar level as the treble speaker.  Distance yourself around the same distance away as the length between left and right speaker, it may change with room shape, ceiling height etc.
> 
> ...




Hello. 

What kind of marantz amp are u using with zensor 3? 
I have them in a setup with pm6005/cd6005. I.m wondering if it.s really worth it to add a subwoofer, in your opinion? My am doesn.t have any dedicated line out for subwoofer. 
Have you listen the zensor7 from dali? If yes, is it worth the $difference to upgrade from zensor3? Room size is 6 by 4 metres. 

Thanks a lot in advance. 

Aa, and by the way, what kind of sub did you pair with the zensors?


----------



## Tadgh

lilas said:


> Hello.
> 
> What kind of marantz amp are u using with zensor 3?
> I have them in a setup with pm6005/cd6005. I.m wondering if it.s really worth it to add a subwoofer, in your opinion? My am doesn.t have any dedicated line out for subwoofer.
> ...


 

 Hey,
  
 Just to deliver my two cents, since improving upon the positioning of the Dali Z3s and burning them in they've shown significant improvement (95% the repositioning, 5% burn in). However they are bookshelf speakers, and while they have great bass response (both in quanitity and texture, speed, and accuracy), for a complete system you'll probably want a sub. They'll never produce true anything >75Hz as well as a sub could.


----------

