# Real Wood vs. MDF Speaker boxes.



## arnesto

I've heard that MDF(Medium Density Fiberboard) when it is cut. The saw dust, if you inhale it, it doesn't leave your body like abestos.

 I noticed most speaker manufacturers make their speaker out of MDF and they use a wood veneer.

 Am I the only one that is bothered by this.

 I know the normal argument is that MDF is less likely to vibrate and create resonance. But introducing potentially toxic elements in your home environment bothers me.

 I guess normally people don't care because speaker manufacturers wouldn't continue this building process.

 Does anybody feel the same about this, and how did you resolve this problem?


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnesto* 
_Does anybody feel the same about this, and how did you resolve this problem?_

 

yes...I built my last set of speakers out of birch plywood. There's a long thread on the topic somewhere over at diyaudio. If you just want to buy speakers, check out Cain & Cain. Terry hates MDF probably even more than you.


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## c0mfortably_numb

MDF imo is pretty nasty stuff, it is particles of wood held together with glue. The wood is only one concern the vinyl or formica is another. some give off volitole chemichals, like formaldahyde, all this is sposed to have guidelines as to how much vto's it gives off...sometimes it's not met, I read recently furniture manufacture Ikea had recalled some furniture for not meeting those guidelines.


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## warpdriver

It's not like the speaker boxes are shedding loose dust....I can't see this as being at all dangerous even in the long term. I'd imagine breathing the black smoke from behind the last diesel truck you drove behind as being more harmful.


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## c0mfortably_numb

It's not just the dust per se, you can't see it but they do put out a certain amount of chemicals just sitting there....


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* 
_It's not like the speaker boxes are shedding loose dust....I can't see this as being at all dangerous even in the long term. I'd imagine breathing the black smoke from behind the last diesel truck you drove behind as being more harmful._

 

I assumed the OP was building speakers...not only does MDF generate a ton of sawdust, the sawdust makes you itch.

 If you're just buying speakers, it probably doesn't matter in the short term, since MDF is always wrapped in veneer or vinyl laminate. The truly environmentally conscious, however, will note that someday those speakers will leach all of their nasty chemicals into a landfill somewhere...

 Just another nod to Cain & Cain...their stuff is all furniture grade, and you'd be more likely to pass them down to your grandkids than dump 'em in a landfill.


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## jjcapurro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* 
_It's not like the speaker boxes are shedding loose dust....I can't see this as being at all dangerous even in the long term. I'd imagine breathing the black smoke from behind the last diesel truck you drove behind as being more harmful._

 

I'd have to agree. OK, so maybe they put off some trace amount of chemicals into the air... So does the cleaning spray I use on my kitchen... And my monitor puts off ozone... my TV too for that matter... And I'd imagine that if I did enough research I could find that my microwave is giving me cancer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I think it is really sad when people worry themselves to death over such small things as these. Have a beer and relax man... Enjoy life for what it is, and I think you will find yourself a much better person for it.


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## cosmopragma

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnesto* 
_I've heard that MDF(Medium Density Fiberboard) when it is cut. The saw dust, if you inhale it, it doesn't leave your body like abestos._

 

It's always wise to protect yourself when dust is involved.
 Besides of that dust from cutting MDF isn't that dangerous.The particles aren't small enough to cause permanent problems unless you are exposed regularly to it, and a sealed end product doesn't emit any dust nor a significant amount of formaldehyde.
 The latter was a problem in former times and did add to the sick building syndrome, but not anymore since emission is strongly regulated nowadays, at least in Europe.
 If you want something to worry about look at cigarette smoke, diesel cars and trucks, camp fire respective any romantic ingle fire , candles and some industrial processes.
 All these do emit finest dust your body can't get rid of.
 In fact our ancestors were way more exposed to dangerous dust.
 Admittedly they didn't live that long .........


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *clarke68* 
_I assumed the OP was building speakers..._

 

I don't think the OP was talking about building speakers, he's bothered than speaker makers are using it.


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## yo2tup2

don't different types of solid wood have different tone characteristics? on acoustic guitars different woods give different sound signatures, so you get the sound of the resonating wood and strings. with cheaper laminate guitars the wood imparts no sonic characterics, so you just get the sound of the resonating strings.

 i assumed MDF (like laminates on guitars) imparted no sonic signature and is very solid which is desirable for speaker building. i'm just assuming all this based on my experience with guitars.... or am i far off on this?


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## Lostlamb

Most mfg's use MDF to build speakers because MDF is cheap and dense. In order to get the same density you are looking at furniture ply, but furniture ply isn't the cheapest thing in the world. Nice furniture ply cost any where between 3-4 times the price of MDF.

 In terms of sound quality, if two comparing boxes were built the same and supplied with the same drivers. You wouldn't hear a big difference in sound.


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## Lostlamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yo2tup2* 
_don't different types of solid wood have different tone characteristics? on acoustic guitars different woods give different sound signatures, so you get the sound of the resonating wood and strings. with cheaper laminate guitars the wood imparts no sonic characterics, so you just get the sound of the resonating strings.

 i assumed MDF (like laminates on guitars) imparted no sonic signature and is very solid which is desirable for speaker building. i'm just assuming all this based on my experience with guitars.... or am i far off on this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Laminate is different from MDF (medium density fiberboard). Furniture ply and laminate are superior to MDF.


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## Zorander

I did wonder once why speakers weren't built with solid wood and I was told that they are way too reflective (sound-wise) and so will not make a good enclosure material. So if that is what you were wondering too in the first place...

 On the topic, I don't think MDF poses that much of a danger, esp. compared to asbestos dust and even vehicle emission gases. The hairs in your nose will block them well enough and a simple dust mask will give more than adequate protection.

 Regards.


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## arnesto

Some of it is paranoia, but you know the leading cause of cancer death among men is lung cancer.

 Cancer's 3 leading causes are: environment, radiation, and viruses.

 I'm trying to limit my exposure to toxic building materials used in my home building supplies as well as furniture, speakers, and other things in my home.

 Hypothetically, there could be MDF dust inside your speakers. The vibration caused by sound could make the dust particles move into the air and out through the bass port in your speaker.

 Normally substances like abestos kills people based on duration of exposure and concentration of particles while being exposed.

 And on the other hand, I believe natural wood particles that you are exposed to. Your body can eliminate through normal cleaning cycles like flem. Because your body has been exposed to these particles over generations and has been designed to clean itself out. But new building materials like MDF, abestos, lead, etc., your body does not have a process to break down and eliminate these substances.

 I have worked too hard and lived too cheap. So, I want to have the benefits of a long and healthy life. To me, 1% contamination is unacceptable.


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnesto* 
_I have worked too hard and lived too cheap. So, I want to have the benefits of a long and healthy life._

 

Whenever somebody says "hypothetically speaking"....that's definitely paranoia talking. 

 It seems to me that worrying over such small things can also cause premature death. The lung cancer you are talking about is mostly due to smoking and much more common airborne particulates. There are many things that will more likely kill you prematurely before any MDF related sickness if there is such a thing.

 Enjoy life and don't worry so much.


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## arnesto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* 
_Enjoy life and don't worry so much._

 

Haha, this is my new motto.

http://www.theguitarguy.com/enjoyyou.htm


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## marvin

Statistical odds say that you won't get lung cancer from MDF particles. And hey, wood varnish is also carcinogenic, so there's really no getting away from the (theoretical) risk of cancer from your speakers.


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## Lostlamb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnesto* 
_Some of it is paranoia, but you know the leading cause of cancer death among men is lung cancer.

 Cancer's 3 leading causes are: environment, radiation, and viruses.

 I'm trying to limit my exposure to toxic building materials used in my home building supplies as well as furniture, speakers, and other things in my home.

 Hypothetically, there could be MDF dust inside your speakers. The vibration caused by sound could make the dust particles move into the air and out through the bass port in your speaker.

 Normally substances like abestos kills people based on duration of exposure and concentration of particles while being exposed.

 And on the other hand, I believe natural wood particles that you are exposed to. Your body can eliminate through normal cleaning cycles like flem. Because your body has been exposed to these particles over generations and has been designed to clean itself out. But new building materials like MDF, abestos, lead, etc., your body does not have a process to break down and eliminate these substances.

 I have worked too hard and lived too cheap. So, I want to have the benefits of a long and healthy life. To me, 1% contamination is unacceptable._

 


 I would agree to you for the most part. I have seen first hand how being a furniture builder can impair your health. However, that's due to several reasons:
 1. the person is exposed to find wood particles 8-10 hours a day
 2. lack of proper ventilation
 3. exotic woods
 4. laminate and glues used in location

 As a casual person in casual contact with wood particulates, l feel we are less likely to develop cancer due to wood particles. It is far more likely for us to develop cancerious cells by sitting in the sun or smoking. Unless you are in an environment where the wood particles is in parts per thousands or parts per hundreds, then you have ample concerns based on your personal beliefs. I'm not questioning your personal beliefs, neither yours or mine are in debate, but purely on statics the likelihood is minimum exposure. 

 That 1% contamination is be very expensive to rid in your house. In today's America, we have a higher radon gas concentration that ever in our homes, which far more deadly than wood dust sitting inside your speaker. My .02 cent.


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## Joey_V

I read in a speaker theory book that the reason why manufacturers use MDF and not real wood is because real wood has grain - and it's this grain the messes with the back waves coming from the drivers.... creating standing waves and adding unwanted resonance within the cabinet.


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## gevorg

There are always marble speakers like these that cost even more than real wood.


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## clarke68

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gevorg* 
_There are always marble speakers like these_

 

Woah...I think the shipping charges (from Moscow) alone would cost more than my entire system! They'd probably look nice in an Italian villa...


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## ooheadsoo

No need to go to moscow for granite speakers

http://home.comcast.net/~rothakoustic/SasonLtd2005.html


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## arnesto

I prefer aluminum or plastic cabinets over marble.


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## ooheadsoo

I think you're in for some bad speakers, then, if you ever get any of those.


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## kwkarth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnesto* 
_Some of it is paranoia, but you know the leading cause of cancer death among men is lung cancer.

 Cancer's 3 leading causes are: environment, radiation, and viruses.

 I'm trying to limit my exposure to toxic building materials used in my home building supplies as well as furniture, speakers, and other things in my home.

 Hypothetically, there could be MDF dust inside your speakers. The vibration caused by sound could make the dust particles move into the air and out through the bass port in your speaker.

 Normally substances like abestos kills people based on duration of exposure and concentration of particles while being exposed.

 And on the other hand, I believe natural wood particles that you are exposed to. Your body can eliminate through normal cleaning cycles like flem. Because your body has been exposed to these particles over generations and has been designed to clean itself out. But new building materials like MDF, abestos, lead, etc., your body does not have a process to break down and eliminate these substances.

 I have worked too hard and lived too cheap. So, I want to have the benefits of a long and healthy life. To me, 1% contamination is unacceptable._

 

Man, if you're worried about all of this, you need to get out of LA NOW! The air you're breathing is worse than anything in your house.


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## arnesto

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *kwkarth* 
_Man, if you're worried about all of this, you need to get out of LA NOW! The air you're breathing is worse than anything in your house. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yeah, LA sure is smoggy. But I live close to the beach and the air there is pretty clean.


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## jjcapurro

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *arnesto* 
_I prefer aluminum or plastic cabinets over marble._

 

Have fun with those...


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## Oddio 1

Don't worry it is nothing like asbestos. It does however gas. Make sure you seal any box you make. The danger with asbestos is that when you break the fibers, they break length wise and continually get thinner until it can enter your lungs easily. Once there the fibers also have hooks that keep them in your lungs.


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## Oddio 1

Only if you are using mediocre drivers. There was a time when grill cloth was thought not to affect sound quality. No audiophiles would listen to their speakers today with the grills in place. Both the frame and cloth effects can be measured. If the enclosure is heroically braced you might have a point but very few speakers are braced to such a standard.


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## Sam Lord

MDF sounds much better per pound than most wood layups, even laminates.  But if you laminate perpendicular to the plane of the surface, like Sonus Faber  and some others do in their $$$ models, the results can be stellar.
  
 But why limit yourself?  Three materials that will provide great sound are:
  
 1) Paper mache
 2) Aggregate (concrete with more varied rocks)
 3) Glass
  
 All can be put inside MDF if you like, or by themselves.
  
 And as a rule of thumb, make your cabinets about 3 times heavier than commercial equivalents.  Won't cost much and the results will be stunningly good.


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