# Dragonfly Red low volume issue



## DJ The Rocket

This has been mentioned in the huge Red/Black discussion forum, but I couldn't find a solution anywhere in there. As I'm not alone in experiencing this issue, and its major enough that without a solution it's a dealbreaker, so it deserves a thread of its own. 
  
 The issue is as follows: 
 (All playback is from Android devices) 
  
 I first bought a Dragonfly Black, and with it's output leading to either amplifier I own (Fiio e11 and Fostex HP-V1), I could just drive the 250-ohm Beyer DT880 at adequate levels (amps at 100% power), which meant plenty of power to blow out something like my Grado sr225e, and probably my AMG K240 also, at 100%.
  
I heard the Red produced better sound quality overall (an indeed it does), so I upgraded. In theory I should be able to drive more headphones directly from the Red without an additional amp, but in practice, the Red is putting out a tiny fraction of what the Black was pushing! And its not close, the Black is FAR more powerful. Obviously this doesn't make any sense, but there is no denying that this is what's happening. With the Red leading to either amp, I can BARELY reach a sufficient volume with the Grados. None of my other headphones can reach even moderate volumes with the Red. What is going on here? All settings are exactly the same, yet the results show that something is very wrong here. 
  
 What should I do? I'm reluctant to return the Red, since the sound quality is better than anything I've heard, handily better than even the Black. It seems like there SHOULD be a simple solution. But what good is better audio quality, if there isn't enough quantity to tell? 
  
 What other similar quality DACs can I get for $200 that are also Android compatible?


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## DJ The Rocket

Bump? Anyone? 
  
 I'm planning a trip by the store tomorrow to determine if mine is a defective unit, though I'm not holding out hope that the solution will be so simple.


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## mks100

Are you using USB Audio Player PRO for Android? If not, you are not getting the full output of the DragonFly. I would try UAPP before making a decision. Is the DragonFly stuck on Magenta regardless of source (Spotify, Tidal, Pandora, YouTube, etc.)? Android Marshmallow and above will automatically convert the signal to the highest resolution possible of the DAC (in this case 96kHz). The Red has a Digital Volume control and will play as loud/louder than the Black provided you are using UAPP.


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## HiFiRobot

Hi, the Dragonfly Red has too high power consumption and Android therefore limits the output. This does not happen when connected to iPhones or when using the Dragonfly Black with an Android phone. I have this confirmed by testing Dragonfly Red and Black with Galaxy S7 and an iPhone 6 and it is also confirmed by a reseller.
  
 I believe Google needs to fix this in the Android SW, maybe with help from Audioquest. I would guess Audioquest is aware of the problem.


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## psikey

Works fine if using UAPP App (that has its own audio driver) and with my Shure SE846 IEMS's it is *just* loud enough for me at max volume with Spotify, so keeping mine as they are working on a fix but no indication when available.  Also, from what I've read, the DFR use slightly less power than the DFB so its not a power issue.
  
  
*My chat with Audioquest:*
  
  
  
 Recently tested out a Dragonfly Red and sounds great with my Shure SE846's even compared to my Chord Mojo (though Mojo still better as expected), but mainly want to use it on the go with my Samsung S7 phone.
  
 Works great on Laptop but read about the issues with Android (also tested with a Sony Xperia Z5) and for Spotify the volume is too low. I have read online about the issue and does indeed work fine with UAPP for stored music.
  
 Any idea when you may have a solution (or Android fixes their OS) as really can't go back to iPhone.
  
 Thanks 
  
  
*Reply:*
  
  Dear Andrew,
  
 The low volume issue is down to the phone manufacturer.  Whenever a USB device is connected to its host a process called ‘enumeration’ takes place.  The device and the host “talk” to each other so the host knows what is connected and what it needs to do.  Part of this process involves setting a pre-determined volume level.
  
 Dragonfly Red features a 64 step digital volume control.  When installed on a mobile device, Dragonfly defaults to a volume setting of 22 (the 22nd step out of 64).  This is to ensure that no damage can be done to your equipment or to your hearing.  However some Android devices mistakenly “read” step 22 as the maximum volume instead of the default volume setting, hence the low output.  This is a function of the OS, not the Dragonfly.
  
 We are working on a solution.  When we have a firmware update available we’ll make an announcement on our website, where you’ll be able to download the desktop manager, which is coming soon.
http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads
  
 Best regards,
  
 Alasdair Patrick
*AudioQuest*
2621 White Road
Irvine  CA  92614
Tel: 949-585-0111 
www.audioquest.com


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## HiFiRobot

Great news. Sounds like my reseller did not have it totally correct then. Hopefully we will get a fix soon.


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## pkcpga

Good luck, with Apple as volume goes up crackling niose appears with high res music or any music higher than 44k res with dfr. I returned two for this reason and bought the mojo, no issues and sounds drastically better. I think the dfr was not ready for release too many bugs.


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## psikey

pkcpga said:


> Good luck, with Apple as volume goes up crackling niose appears with high res music or any music higher than 44k res with dfr. I returned two for this reason and bought the mojo, no issues and sounds drastically better. I think the dfr was not ready for release too many bugs.


 
  
 I also have a Mojo and its not "Drastically" better except for DSD's which sound fantastic on it. Using UAPP app the DF Red sounds amazing and even Spotify is just loud enough with the Android volume issues with my SE846's (but no real volume control!).
  
 Its my most used DAC at the moment as I do most of my listening away from home and just keep it in my small SE846 case and don't have to even think about charging it, just inline use to my Samsung S7 or PC at work.
  
 If you have to have the best under £1000 and are OK with less portability, higher price and battery charging another device then the Mojo is the best, but for £169 the DF Red is one hell of a good listen and certainly much better thathe original DF or Oppo HA2.


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## brent75

pkcpga said:


> Good luck, with Apple as volume goes up crackling niose appears with high res music or any music higher than 44k res with dfr. I returned two for this reason and bought the mojo, no issues and sounds drastically better. I think the dfr was not ready for release too many bugs.


 
 LOL - you crack me up.
  
 This entire thread discussion has been about Android devices and low volume. Yet you still jump in and switch topics to a new manufacturer (Apple) with a new issue (crackling noise) and a new solution (Mojo) --- all of which have nothing to do with the thread. Then you essentially accuse Audioquest of launching a poor, non-QAed product prematurely (without really knowing how widespread the issue you experienced has been).
  
 We get it man. You love your Mojo. You should, it's great! But doesn't mean you have to jump into every Dragonfly discussion you can find and steer the topic to that.
  
 Cheers - happy listening.


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## pkcpga

brent75 said:


> LOL - you crack me up.
> 
> This entire thread discussion has been about Android devices and low volume. Yet you still jump in and switch topics to a new manufacturer (Apple) with a new issue (crackling noise) and a new solution (Mojo) --- all of which have nothing to do with the thread. Then you essentially accuse Audioquest of launching a poor, non-QAed product prematurely (without really knowing how widespread the issue you experienced has been).
> 
> ...



Only jumped in because they stated they were considering the mojo also.


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## brent75

pkcpga said:


> Only jumped in because they stated they were considering the mojo also.


 
 Re-read the first post -- there is zero mention of Mojo. The first time it's brought up in this entire thread is when psikey shares his email exchange with Audioquest trying to solve a volume issue -- in his email he references Mojo as something he already owns (and actually says DFR stacks up well against it).
  
 It doesn't bother me...I'm just busting your balls. It's clear you've got Mojo on the brain and want the world to know.


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## nirudhap

pkcpga said:


> Good luck, with Apple as volume goes up crackling niose appears with high res music or any music higher than 44k res with dfr. I returned two for this reason and bought the mojo, no issues and sounds drastically better. I think the dfr was not ready for release too many bugs.


 
 Is this using something like Onkyo Player?


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## pkcpga

nirudhap said:


> Is this using something like Onkyo Player?




Yes with the onkyo player.


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## Whippler

I'm getting shure se846 tomorrow, and a dragonfly red once the shops here get them from the factory, should be this week. But im also looking for a new phone to drive this setup from, and i am pretty much turn between sony xperia XZ, and iPhone 7. (other options: Moto Z, LG G5.). I'm currently on Jolla C, damn the OS is sweet and fluid, but its just lacking too much features so im either hopping back to android. or joining the iSheeps.
  
 Looks like there are problems with getting the AQ DF Red working properly on android, so are there anybody here who has tried it on Sony XZ?
  
 In addition to this i have a portable DAP project going on with Raspberry pi zero, that i want to use. But it will probably have poor battery life, a bulky design, and poor user interface for proper day to day use.


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## ronrontan

psikey said:


> Works fine if using UAPP App (that has its own audio driver) and with my Shure SE846 IEMS's it is *just* loud enough for me at max volume with Spotify, so keeping mine as they are working on a fix but no indication when available.  Also, from what I've read, the DFR use slightly less power than the DFB so its not a power issue.
> 
> 
> *My chat with Audioquest:*
> ...



Dear Alastair, the fixing promise was made in October. It is now 1st February. Any progress please? 

Am using the ESS Sabre equipped LG V20, excellent sound too. But I want to compare with AF-DFR. 
Ronny Tan Beng Tiat


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## psikey

ronrontan said:


> Dear Alastair, the fixing promise was made in October. It is now 1st February. Any progress please?
> 
> Am using the ESS Sabre equipped LG V20, excellent sound too. But I want to compare with AF-DFR.
> Ronny Tan Beng Tiat


 
  
 I just had an answer from him.  Have good news on the DFR (and DFB). I asked Audioquest a few questions and just had reply below:
  
  
  
 Dear Andrew,
  
 The software update, which will be available to download for free via the Desktop Manager app on our website: http://www.audioquest.com/dragonfly-series/#downloads will be available in a week or so.  This will update both the volume issue and MQA.  If you registered your Dragonfly, you will receive an email when it's available.
  
 Please note: you will need to use a suitable media player, such as Tidal or Audirvana Plus, to play MQA files.  This is because MQA requires a decoder and a renderer to play a file.  The renderer is built into the Dragonfly and the decoder is built into the media player's software.  Once updated, your Dragonfly will glow a beautiful shade of blue to let you know you're playing an MQA file.  MQA files are played in the same resolution as they were recorded in.
  
 Best regards,


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## Hitcher

"A week or so" my ass... Its now Feb/ 13/ 2017 sooooo that is more than a week???.  Didn't think it would come out in a week. Guess I have to return this DFR turd.


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## nirudhap

Yeah just vaporware it seems.Sigh, was hopeful.


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## psikey

Yes, obviously told a pack of lies. Mines gone back to Amazon within return window.

Sich a pitty as its a nice device otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## 6a6uH BHyK

Hi,
  
 I own Red and Black at this moment, use them connected to the MacBook via JitterBug, source - iTunes. Seems I have a similar problem - when using Red with my NightHawks, I put macOS sound level at 5th "level/mark" of system volume. Simultaneously connected Black produce same volume level right at 1.5th mark. Could You please tell, it is the same issue? Have anyone experiences similar? Maybe one of my Black or Red is defective?


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## fuzzybabybunny

Geez, still no update on this from AQ?


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## ibzmav

Any update regarding the volume issue?


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## pkcpga

ibzmav said:


> Any update regarding the volume issue?




Still no update, I wouldn't hold my breath at this point, the next dragon fly will probably be released first with those issues and mqa corrected.


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## sattej

Thought I would add my experiences as an update to this post. I emailed AQ yesterday asking about updates as I recently purchased a Dragonfly Red and discovered this pervasive volume issue, here's what their customer support had to say:
  
Hi Jeffrey,
 
Unfortunately we do not have any timeframe for this at the moment.  We are working as hard as possible on the firmware.   But at the moment we are going through the certification process with Microsoft/Apple.  The time for that process to be completed is not clear right now.
 
Respectfully,
 
Alex Mejia – Customer Technical Support


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## Quarter27

Got this response to my query about a timeline for the update.

*The volume update will be available to download via our Desktop Manager, which should be available very soon, hopefully in the next few days.*

*Best regards
Alasdair Patrick
AudioQuest
2621 White Road
*
I returned mine. Will wait for the update before I rebuy or spend my money somewhere else.


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## BenKatz

Here s a bump on this thread.

Was actually planning on getting the Dragonfly RED to use exclusively mobile with my Xperia XZ, but good thing I came across this threas.

Did Audioquest come up with the aforementioned volume issue fix yet?


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## Whippler (May 16, 2017)

For me the problem with Dragonfly RED is the volumes too high, @psikey how are you able to use DF RED with se846? Using it with windows the usable volume range is 1-4% out of 100% and then it starts to become deafening. Same with some fairly easy to drive headphones (AKG K550 and Focal Utopia). In addition to that there is a *slight* hiss with se846 on DF RED. I have ended up using se846 directly out of LG V10. Chord Mojo adds too much bulk, while DF RED is just loud, and doesn't sound as good. When the poly streamer comes i'll probably move over to that since then mojo doesn't have to be stacked with my phone anymore.

Using DF RED out of a android phone (LG V10) i can hear a drop in sound quality, probably related to this so called low volume issue, still with the se846, the usable volume range is around the ~4% mark. With the mentioned headphones the volume difference is more clear when i have to go as high as 20-25% (Neutron music player app), compared to ~6% on windows.

To get usable volume range out of the DF RED i'd have to do about -10 to -20dB digital volume reduction on foobar before the DF vol. control trough windows. Ques this little stick is meant to drive 300+Ohm cans.

I had a look at the AQ site and there is still no software download for updating the firmware on DF RED. still reads "coming soon" and it has been 2 and a half months since @psikey got the mail from AQ about the update.

I meant to write here earlier when i got the DF RED, just bough it out of interest since there was a good deal on a slightly used one. I'v been previously using the original dragonfly with AKG K550.


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## sattej (May 21, 2017)

All -

I checked the AudioQuest site today and noticed that the download for AQ Dragonfly Desktop Manager is now live.  I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, but I thought I would notify everyone--it looks like it posted today, actually.

http://www.audioquest.com/digitalupdates

* Edit 5/21 --
I downloaded and installed the AQ Device Manager, and used it to upgrade firmware (from 1.03 initially to 1.06, current version).  Regrettably, this does not appear to have had any influence on the low volume issue on my Android OS Galaxy S7 (I am trying to run Plex application, as everyone else reports, this is not a problem with UAPP).  Looking more carefully at their description of firmware updates, it seems that v1.03 was supposed to have addressed the Android volume issue on "some" devices.  So my device which I purchased in March probably shipped with v1.03 and I guess that firmware did not address my S7 nor does the recent v1.06 make any improvement.  So... yeah.. :\ .

I did generate a followup email to AQ customer support asking about other devices or potential future FW updates and I will post here if I hear anything back.  Sorry only bad news this time.


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## sattej

This is the response I got from AQ regarding current status of Android volume issue.  Essentially, if the FW 1.03 didn't fix your volume issue, you are screwed by device manufacturer and there is no workaround:

Hi Jeff,

Unfortunately that is the only update/fix we have at this time.  If the Android device does not fully support and adheres strictly to the Android USB Host/Audio spec.  It sometimes may not be 100% compatible with certain DAC’s including ours.  We have offered a fix with the Android update but it will not work for all Android devices.  If the update does not work then unfortunately and ultimately any fix, will fall on the manufacturer of the device.

Respectfully,

-----


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## zolom (May 23, 2017)

Volume problem partially solved by *BenKatz*
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/n...-red-discussion.805832/page-226#post-13497741


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## Pindi

Apologies for bumping a 6 month old thread but has anyone managed to get around this issue (aside from the BenKatz method)?

I'm getting a Pixel 2 XL in the next couple of days and as that's usb audio only (wireless aside), I'm hoping this may be fixed but was wondering if anyone had any updates?  Any luck with any phones?

thanks


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## Pindi

In case anyone is interested, the pixel 2 XL suffers from the same issue.

I guess audioquest only fixed it for very select handsets


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## Bazirker

I have the same problem on my Pixel 2.  Volume is sufficient with my 12 ohm CIEM's, but a complete joke with my HD 650's.


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## jessnie

same problem here, annoying


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## Grimbles

I had this issue with my black 1.2. Using usb audio player pro i changed the volume control from software to hardware. That enabled me to set output (s6 edge plus and s8) for media on android up to max, then inside usb audio player pro control hardware volume of the dragonfly using the rocker switches. 

It also seems on the 1.2 that hardware volume gets locked at last output, so i was always cardful when i had been line outing on my pc to surn it down before plugging earphones back in. Does thia help?


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## Pindi

thanks Grimbles.  I've come across UAPP workarounds before but I'm wary of accidentally maxing the volume one time and blowing my eardrums out.  I just wish it'd work by itself.  It's crazy that Google would remove this from Android


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## Bazirker

Just updated my Pixel 2 to 8.1, and although I was hoping it would help my Red be able to drive my HD6XX, no such luck.


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## Grimbles

Pindi said:


> thanks Grimbles.  I've come across UAPP workarounds before but I'm wary of accidentally maxing the volume one time and blowing my eardrums out.  I just wish it'd work by itself.  It's crazy that Google would remove this from Android


Afaik there isn't a native way to control dragonfly volume in android. I just used uapp to do it, but i think hiby music player has a hardware volume control option. Not sure of the risk of blowing out your own ears as both of these apps can fire up automatically when you plug the device in and you can check the volume v quickly before plugging in your headphones.


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## Twanger49

From post #5:
_Dragonfly Red features a 64 step digital volume control.  When installed on a mobile device, Dragonfly defaults to a volume setting of 22 (the 22nd step out of 64).  This is to ensure that no damage can be done to your equipment or to your hearing.  However some Android devices mistakenly “read” step 22 as the maximum volume instead of the default volume setting, hence the low output.  This is a function of the OS, not the Dragonfly._

Seems to me that Audioquest could have just set the default volume to 64 instead of 22. Problem solved.........is Audioquest "protecting" our hearing, or is it that the boot-up default 22 enumeration cannot be reprogrammed and all Dragonfly Reds are forever stuck at 22 and Audioquest won't admit their failing.


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## Blueshound24

Twanger49 said:


> From post #5:
> _Dragonfly Red features a 64 step digital volume control.  When installed on a mobile device, Dragonfly defaults to a volume setting of 22 (the 22nd step out of 64).  This is to ensure that no damage can be done to your equipment or to your hearing.  However some Android devices mistakenly “read” step 22 as the maximum volume instead of the default volume setting, hence the low output.  This is a function of the OS, not the Dragonfly._
> 
> Seems to me that Audioquest could have just set the default volume to 64 instead of 22. Problem solved.........is Audioquest "protecting" our hearing, or is it that the boot-up default 22 enumeration cannot be reprogrammed and all Dragonfly Reds are forever stuck at 22 and Audioquest won't admit their failing.


 

I am considering getting the DF Red for my Galaxy S7 edge. Does anyone know if this affects the S7 or can you get full volume with it?


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## Pindi

It's an easy fix for audioquest to set the default to maximum, they've known about this issue for ages, it's even in the physical manual. 

I believe it just audioquest not wanting to take the risk as full volume would shaft your ears like nobody's business.


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## johncolton

I tested my Pixel 2 (fully updated) with a new DragonFly Red and DragonFly Black today. I played audio from Spotify and a few other apps, but didn't try Tidal or USB Audio Player PRO.
Red was way too low and basically unusable. The volume control worked, but at "max" volume from the Android, the output was too low.
Black worked perfectly fine, so I bought it. I'm pretty happy as they sound great with my W30s.

I updated the Black firmware and installed USB Audio Player PRO. No hardware audio controls were available. Bottom line for me: DragonFly Red doesn't work with Pixel 2 but Black does.


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## Twanger49

Blueshound24 said:


> I am considering getting the DF Red for my Galaxy S7 edge. Does anyone know if this affects the S7 or can you get full volume with it?


I know that the Red works with Usb-AudioPlayer-Pro and the Neutron player but not with Poweramp or any others I've tried and definitely not with Youtube, Netflix etc.


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## Blueshound24

Twanger49 said:


> I know that the Red works with Usb-AudioPlayer-Pro and the Neutron player but not with Poweramp or any others I've tried and definitely not with Youtube, Netflix etc.



Sorry, I'm not up on this much, but does Usb-AudioPlayer-Pro work with stock Android without rooting?
And, if DF Red does not work with Youtube or Netflix, I guess it would not work with Pandora or Spotify either?


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## Grimbles

Blueshound24 said:


> Sorry, I'm not up on this much, but does Usb-AudioPlayer-Pro work with stock Android without rooting?


 yes



johncolton said:


> I updated the Black firmware and installed USB Audio Player PRO. No hardware audio controls were available.


 i used to have the df 1.2. I found that if i changed the hardware volume in usb audio player pro then launched my other apps, they would then software volume control up to the max hardware volume i had set in usb audio player pro. This was an effective workaround for me. Not sure this is valid with the black/red as i dont have either.


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## Blueshound24

Twanger49 said:


> I know that the Red works with Usb-AudioPlayer-Pro and the Neutron player but not with Poweramp or any others I've tried and definitely not with Youtube, Netflix etc.




So if DF Red does not work with Youtube or Netflix, I guess it would not work with Pandora or Spotify either?


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## Bazirker

johncolton said:


> I tested my Pixel 2 (fully updated) with a new DragonFly Red and DragonFly Black today. I played audio from Spotify and a few other apps, but didn't try Tidal or USB Audio Player PRO.
> Red was way too low and basically unusable. The volume control worked, but at "max" volume from the Android, the output was too low.
> Black worked perfectly fine, so I bought it. I'm pretty happy as they sound great with my W30s.
> 
> I updated the Black firmware and installed USB Audio Player PRO. No hardware audio controls were available. Bottom line for me: DragonFly Red doesn't work with Pixel 2 but Black does.



I have a Pixel 2 and a DFR, and as you say, the volume issue is present and quite an issue.  Very interesting however that you got the DFB to work...I may have to look into it.


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## 211276

I have installed USB  Audio Player Pro and it works well with Tidal when on line. Is there any way it can access what I have downloaded from Tidal?


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## Cardiman

The 1.07 update fixes thé volume issue for all android devices ! 
*Recent Updates*

DragonFly Black/Red Firmware v1.07
▸ addresses the volume control issue found in Android devices

DragonFly Black/Red Firmware v1.06
▸ added MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) rendering support to the DragonFly DAC

DragonFly Black/Red Firmware v1.03
▸ addressed volume control issues on some Android devices


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## Bazirker

Cardiman said:


> The 1.07 update fixes thé volume issue for all android devices !
> *Recent Updates*
> 
> DragonFly Black/Red Firmware v1.07
> ...



I love how this comes out a week after I sell my DFR.  You guys with Pixel 2's, does this fix it for you?


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## zeroselect

The update fixed my Note 8 volume issue. Using a DFR.


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## kebos

Bazirker said:


> I love how this comes out a week after I sell my DFR.  You guys with Pixel 2's, does this fix it for you?



Yes works with Pixel 2 now - volume much improved!


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## stuck limo (Apr 15, 2019)

Something must have updated or whatever: I can use my Dragonfly Black on my Samsung S7, but the volume control on the phone will not work on any software. The music comes through but it's at one low level and cannot be adjusted up or down. Any ideas? I haven't used my Dragonfly in a long time, but last time I did, everything worked as normal. 

I am running latest 1.07 Dragonfly firmware, S7 software 6930VVRS9CSC1, Android 8.0, latest Android Security Patch from March 1, 2019, Kernel Version 3.18.71.


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## johncolton

Sorry - once I went to 1.07, I was ok.


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## akburt

Win 10 64bit -works perfectly
Red Note7 + USB Audio player-works perfectly
Good Job Audioquest boys  thank you


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