# Survey and Opinions of Chinese (or other) Tube Head Amps....



## m8o

....Help me decide what my next purchase will be. (under probably $500 but that can be flexible.) I'm going to make this thread a comprehensive 'inventory' of reasonably priced -- and perhaps a few a bit over my self-imposed idea of 'reasonably priced' -- tube or tube/SS hybrid head amps.

Jump past this long winded intro and get to the list...

 Short background... 

 I'm new to this hobby. This is as a matter of fact, my 1st post, though I've been lurking and reading a good deal here and other places. I've spent gagillions of dollars on stereo and HT equipment. I have very very nice 2-ch and 5-ch (soon to be 7-ch) setups. But driven by a desire to have 'nice' sound @ work while I program, I recently decided to try a head amp. And I bought a Little Dot II+. Youza ... nice! 

 I have old (from the 70s or early 80s) AKG K240 phones, 600 ohm that I leave @ home. I find the LD II+ needs an "11" on the volume dial to really drive them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 At work I have B&O Form-2 phones that are about 7 years old, and Senn HD477 phones I received for free from Crutchfield on purchase of a Sony HT system for my wife's den (we have 3 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) a few years back. I'm surprised by the sound of the latter after having listened to the 240s all weekend as comparison. 

 I drive all of them with an iPod G5 at work and several inputs @ home through a mixer. I also plan on buying some "very high end" headphones now. Anyone selling AKG 340s? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (just kidding ... kinda serious tho) There's a bunch of new ones on my list.

 Here's the dillema and my reason for asking your opinions...

 I bought the LD II+ for work, but it was oh so tough to part with it from my home and bring it in here (work)! I decided I need another amp @ home to make me happy! * so.... Do I buy another Little Dot II+ for home, or another tube head-amp? [probably Chinese for the value proposition] * 

 As an example, the G&W T2.6F Amplifier is intriguing and oh so tempting. I might consider spending up to about $500 for something, but again, that can be flexible. But I won't be $$$ snobish and worry about just spending $150 for the cost of the LD II+ again either. The reason I'm leaning towards the G&W T2.6F vs. the LD II+ at home again is the AKG 240s need a good amount of power to drive them. The LD II+ has 0.6mW output and G&W is rated @ 1W.

 So, would -love- to read all your thoughts on the crop of tube head amps out, mostly of the Chinese variety I guess for the value end of it, but I'm open there too of course. I do want to stay with tubes however. I'm no tube biggot, but for this I'd like to stay with tubes.

 Perhaps as guidance, list the brand and what you liked about it, and how you compare its audio quality in relation to its price for the valude proposition. I'll start. Quote:


 I don't know "too much" about all this, and my headphones aren't all that great so I don't know if I am even qualified to give an opinion .... but the LD II+ is doing a phenominal job at buffering and amplification between my iPod and phones -- even with 'low impedance' ones that an iPod is supposed to be able to drive well. It is making -=music=- in the subtlest of sounds in those all important place:
 a) _between_ the notes. 
 b) and those long running subtle notes/tones that commonly weave a complex pleasing melody playing to a beat several times slower then the primary beat of the music, but are often on the verge of hearing, or perhaps better put at the edge of one's awareness until you key into hearing _into_ the music.

 I find it is uncovering these melodies and nuances I had not heard before, or perhaps heard only as 'noise' with all of these headphones or through my car stereo (the latter, when I plug my iPod into it) when driven directly by the iPod. It allows me to hear _into_ the music so much better. And I'm happily able to do that at much lower volume levels now too! 
 

thanx everyone for reading and your posts if you do.


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## m8o

I think it would be great to have some "compare and contrast" thoughts about tube or hybrid head amps in one place...candidates.

 edit: Updated List (deviated from a Chinese focus to a fully international one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ):

 edit: 9/9/2006 - I decided to maintain this 2nd message with all the updates to my list. (I hope I'm allowed for the message to be over 10K characters or I may have to revisit this idea)

 edit: 10/1/2006 - I haven't been good at notifying of updates. I remembered today...
 Added G&W T-2A, Darkvoice 336, T.M.S. T-200MKll

 edit: 10/13/2006 - Added WooAudio 3 details

Little Dot II (review)
  Quote:


 · Retail: $95
 · Frenquency response: 10HZ to 35KHZ (-3db) 
 · Distortion: <=1% (50mW, 300ohm) ; <=3% (92mW, 300 ohm) 
 · Power handling capacity: 35W (under alternating current situation) 
 · Tube used: 1B2 x2, 4P1S x2 [DHT!]
 · Can drive headphones with 30 ohm to 600 ohm 
 · Power supply-220-240V, or 110-120V 
 

Little Dot II+ (reviews & comparison to LDII) ( Impressions + a few words about DHT ) (opinion) (another) (another) (another) Quote:


 · Retail: $150
 · Frenquency response: 10HZ to 35KHZ (-3db) 
 · Distortion: <=1% (50mW, 300ohm) ; <=3% (92mW, 300 ohm) 
 · Power handling capacity: 35W (under alternating current situation) 
 · Driver Tubes: Mullard EF92 x2
 · Gain ：x9 or x12 (300 ohm) select by jumper
 · Input Sensitivity: 450 mV (rms)
 · Input Volt. Max. : 2200mV (rms)
 · Power Tubes: 4P1S x2 [ DHT !]
 · Output terminal: 6.5mm Mic Jack 
 · Input terminal: RCA Jack
 · Color: golden, silver, black
 · Can drive headphones with 30 ohm to 600 ohm 
 

Little Dot III+ (detailed initial impressions) (another) (after 40 hours)  Quote:


 · Pricing: 349 USD
 · Input: One set RCA jacks.
 · Outputs: 1/4" Headphone jack, one set speaker binding posts, and one set RCA Preamp out jacks. 
 · Gain ：x9 or x12 (300 ohm) select by jumper
 · Input Sensitivity: 450 mV (rms)
 · Input Volt. Max. : 2200mV (rms)
 · Driver Tubes: Mullard EF91 x2
 · Power Tubes: 4P1S x2 [ DHT !]
 · New "Intelligent MCU" circuitry detects your headphone's impedance and automatically changes output power to best match your headphones.
 · Frequency Range: 
 15HZ-25KHz (Triode mode) 
 25HZ-65KHz (Pentode mode)
 · Output Power:
 Speakers: 3.5W + 3.5W into 8 ohms
 Headphones: 1000mW into 120 ohms
 · Suitable Headphone Impedance: 32 ohms to 600 ohms (auto-detect)
 · Suitable Speaker Impedance: 8 ohms 
 

G&W T-2.6F (discussion & opinions) (another)  Quote:


 · Street Price (eBay) US $319.99 + $45 shipping
 · Input sensitivity:150mV
 · Frequency:10Hz-208KHz +/-3 dB 
 · Signal/Noise Ratio:101dB (Vrms:15V)
 · Distortion:0.05% (Vrms:10V; 1KHz)
 · Weight: net/gross 8.5kg
 · Output Power: 1000mW (20Hz~20KHz)
 · Power Supply: 110-120V/60Hz 
 · Output impedance: 32-600 ohm
 · Stock tubes: Russian 6922EH 
 · Hitachi power MOSFET 2SK214/2SJ77. EI iron-cored inductor with ruby electrolytic capacitors as πtype filter 
 · Power Consumption: 60W 
 

G&W T-2A  Quote:


 · Street Price (eBay) US $374 (200GBP) + shipping
 · Input Sensitivity: 150mV 
 · Output power: 2 x 800mW 
 · Frequency Response: 16Hz - 110kHz (-1dB), 8Hz - 238kHz (-3dB) 
 · Signal-to-Noise Ratio: >101dB 
 · THD: <0.1% (1kHz V0:1V) 
 · Can drive headphones with 200ohm to 600ohm 
 · Tube compliment: Pre-amp: 12AU7 valves/tubes ; Power-amp: EL84 valves/tubes 
 

Bada PH-1 (a few words)  Quote:


 · List Price:$225.00 ; Street Price: $175.00 
 · Frequency Response 10Hz-40KHz +/-1 dB 
 · Signal/Noise Ratio: >90dB 
 · Distortion: less than 0.3% 
 · Hum: not measurable (less than 0.1mV)
 · Output Power: 1W
 · Output impedance: 10-600 ohm
 · Input Consumption: 50W
 · Tube & SS Compliment: 6N16B-Q military grade tube and Hitachi power MOSFET K214/J77 output transistor 
 

Bada PH-12 here we go... (point) (counter-point, sorta) ...let the games begin! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


 · List Price:$575.00 ; Street Price: $450.00 
 · Recommendation headset impedance : 30 –600 ohms
 · Rated output power : 1W (47 @ ohms)
 · Frequency response : 10Hz-50kHz (+0/-1 dB)
 · Harmonics distortion : <0.6%
 · Gain : 16dB
 · Signal / Noise Ration > 95dB
 · Power consumption : 50W
 · Tube & SS Compliment: 3 military grade level 6N7GT dual triodes and Toshiba 2SK1529 transistors 
 

Musical Fidelity XCAN v3

Ming Da MC 66AE Quote:


 · List Price:$499.00 ; Street Price: $325.00 
 · Maximum Output: 600mw～1.5w
 · Output Impedance: 32Ω、300Ω、600Ω
 · Input Level: 500mv
 · Input Impedance: 100k
 · Total Harmonic Distortion: ≤0.8%
 · Frequency responses: 15Hz～50KHz ±dB
 · Signal to Noise Ratio: 92dB
 · Input Jacks: 1groups
 · Output Jacks: 3groups
 · Vacuum Tubes: 6N6x2 12AX7x1
 · Power Consumption: 42W 
 

WooAudio 3  (initial impressions) (Feel the Love, and again) (experiences)  Quote:


 · $490 w/shipping from mfg.
 · Headphones impedance : 30-600 Ohms 
 · Input impedance: 100 Kilo-Ohms 
 · Frequency response: 8 Hz - 100 KHz +/-3dB 
 · Pre-amp Gain: 10 dB 
 · Signal/Noise: 95 dB 
 · THD: <= 0.08% 
 Parts and Components 
 · One 6AS7/6080 power tube. Two 6DJ8/6922 drive tubes. 
 · Heavy-duty full aluminum die-cast chassis, alodinze finished. 
 · Whole aluminum volume knob and power switch button. 
 · 100 watts specially made toroidal transformer. 
 · Gold-pin tube sockets. 
 · Gold-plate RCA 
 · Alps potentiometer and power switch 
 · ELNA and WIMA capacitors 
 · Dale and Vishay high precision resistors. 
 · Teflon wires 
 

Xiansheng 708B (review)  Quote:


 · List Price:$299.99 ; Street $190.00 
 · Input impedance : 100K;
 · Output impedance : 32--600
 · Signal / Noise Ratio: 89dB
 · Frequency response : 20Hz--30KHz
 · Distortion: =0.01%
 · Headphone Output : 500mW--250mW
 · Tube Compliment: 1 6N3, 2X 6922, 1X 6Z4 and 1X 6N1(tube window) tubes 
 

Headroom Millett Hybrid (review / impression) (professional review) Quote:


 · Retail: $649 
 · Stock Tube Compliment for Tube Rolling: 12FM6, 12AE6A, and 12FK6
 · Class-A Upgrade option
 · Power Supply Upgrade option
 · Volume Pot Upgrade option
_(all makes for a pretty expensive solution)_ 
 

DYI Millett Hybrid 

Pete Millett's DIY Audio pages

ECC99 SRPP Headphone Amp (Pete Millet Design specifically for K1000) Quote:


 · Maximum output (5% THD) into 100 ohm load Switch set to Low Z 4.2V RMS (176mW)
 · Maximum output (5% THD) into 100 ohm load Switch set to High Z 5.7V RMS (325mW)
 · Maximum output (5% THD) into 300 ohm load Switch set to Low Z 4.4V RMS (65mW)
 · Maximum output (5% THD) into 300 ohm load Switch set to High Z 6.4V RMS (137mW)
 · THD at 1V RMS, 1kHz into 100 ohm load Switch set to Low Z 1.0%
 · THD at 1V RMS, 1kHz into 100 ohm load Switch set to High Z 0.8%
 · THD at 1V RMS, 1kHz into 300 ohm load Switch set to Low Z 0.9%
 · THD at 1V RMS, 1kHz into 300 ohm load Switch set to High Z 0.7%
 · THD residual is virtually all second harmonic, giving the characteristic "single ended triode" signature
 · Freq response 20-20kHz -1.0dB/-0.3dB ref 1kHz 1V RMS, either output Z selected... -3dB down at 70kHz
 · Noise referenced to 1kHz 1V RMS -65dB (probably near my measurement limit)
 · Tube Compliment: ECC99 
 

Wheatfield Audio HA-1 (Pete Millet design) Quote:


 · Input impedance: 50k ohms
 · Input connections: Unbalanced, gold-plated RCA
 · Tube complement: 1x ECC82 (12AU7), 2x 7044
 · Frequency Response : 
 600 ohm load: <9Hz - 250kHz +/- 3 dB
 32 ohm load: 12Hz – 250kHz +/- 3 dB
 · THD+N (1kHz, 1V RMS out, 100 ohm load): <0.12%
 · Maximum output voltage (5% THD): 
 600 ohm load: 13V RMS
 32 ohm load: 1.5V RMS
 · Output impedance: Approx. 35 ohms
 · Output connection: Standard ¼” stereo headphone jack 
 

Earmax base and Pro  Quote:


 Earmax Headphone Amplifier - Technical Data 
 · 19V AC output (350mA)
 · Bandwidth: 4Hz-1Mhz (-3dB)
 · Maximum Output Power: Silver: 100mWatts (peak), Pro: 150mWatts (peak)
 · Distortion: Typical 0.1Y-Max 1.0Y (soft clipping like a Single-Ended Triode Power Amplifier, predominantly Second Harmonics). The Silver Edition has 3-5 times lower distortion.
 · Smoothing capacity: 2 x 4700uF
 · Input Impedence: DC: >100kOhms, 100pF, AC: 47kOhms 
 · Optimum Load Impedence: >25-2000 Ohms ( base: >200 )
 · S/N ratio typically greater than 95dB (A-Weighted) (Silver)m 90dB (Pro)
 · Power consumption: 14-16 watts (Silver), 10-11watts (Pro)
 · Tube Compliment: base: ECC81 x1, ECC86 x2
 · Tube Compliment: Pro: AT7 x1, 6DJ8 x2 
 

Cayin (Spark) HA-1A  (initial impression) (1st thoughts with DT880 [soon to arrive here] ; yes try Triode mode) (2nd thoughts with DT880) (full review)  Quote:


 · List $750 ; Street $399 
 · Output Tube Mode switchable between triode and ultralinear.
 · Impedance Selector Switch for perfect interface with any pair of headphones – switchable between 6 and 300 ohms.
 · Usable as a preamplifier (14dB gain).
 · Usable as an integrated amplifier – Power output: 1.2W x 2 (RMS, triode) or 2.2W x 2 (RMS, ultralinear).
 · Uses two EL 84s, a 12AX7 and a 12AU7 tube. 
 

Bottlehead S.E.X. Quote:


 · Base price $389.00 
 · Specs: Can vary; it's an Experimenter's kit.... See the Bottlehead page. 
 

Eddie Current EC-01 (opinion) Quote:


 · Retail: $349.00 - Street: ???$250???
 · Gain 22dB
 · Max output 19V peak driving 300 ohms, or 1.2 watts.
 · Source impedance 80 ohms.
 · Frequency Response driving 300 ohms –0.5dB 10Hz and 200kHz.
 · Wideband noise plus gain referenced to 1V -102dB.
 · Tube Compliment: 1 6N3P, 2 6N6P. 
 

Eddie Current Laconic Lunch Box (HA-02T) (initial impression) (initial impression) (follow-up impression) Quote:


 Lunch Box Specifications (nothing on the website):
 · List & Street Price: $160
 · Gain 22 dB
 · Frequency response plus minus 1dB from 15 to 100,000 Hz.
 · Power out R=150 ohm 135mW Peak
 · Power out R=300 ohm 160mW Peak (? Craig just e-mailed me that it's 220mW into 300 ohms at 1kHz)
 · Noise plus gain -84dB wideband
 · Minimum load 150 ohms. (even though source out is 25 ohms ; said to have a smaller PS so max current is limited by it)
 · Tube compliment. One 6N3P, Two 6N24P 
 

Opera Consonance Cyber 20 (professional review) (preliminary review)
  Quote:


 List $??? ; Street $327
 · control Functions: Volume, Gain (low/high) Switch, Power On/Off 
 · output impdeance: (low) 10-200 ohms , (high) 200-600 ohms 
 · output power at 1 kHz: 1W x2 RMS 
 · bandwidth at -3dB: 20Hz - 40kHz (1W) 
 · signal/noise: 90dB 
 · input interfaces: 1 group (RCA) 
 · input impedance: 50k 
 · input sensitivity for rated output: 900mV 
 · output interfaces: 2 groups (6.5mm Mic Jack) 
 · consumption: 26W 
 · vacuum tubes: EL84x2, ECC82x1 
 

Antique Sound Lab [ ATL ] HB1   Quote:


 · List Price $300
 · Output power (feedback) 15mW on 32 Ohm Headphone
 · Frequency responsible at 1V 15Hz to 100K -1 db
 · Frequency responsible at full power 15Hz to 100K -1db
 · Distortion <1%
 · S/N Ratio 78dB
 · Input impedance 100K
 · Power request 30W
 · Input sensitive 1V 
 

Antique Sound Lab [ ATL ] MG HEAD DT OTL MKIII   Quote:


 · List Price $400
 · Output Power 120mW x 2 
 · Frequency responsible at 1 W 15Hz - 35KHz 
 · Frequency responsible at full power 19Hz - 40KHz 
 · Distortion at 1W < 2% 
 · Distortion at full power < 3% 
 · S/N Ratio 78dB 
 · Input impedance 100K 
 · Output Impedance HIGH - LOW (10 Ohm - 600 Ohm) 
 · Input sensitive 1V 
 · Power request 21W 
 · Input Sockets RCA Gold Plate 
 · Output Termininal 3.5mm /6.5mm Mic Jack 
 · Tube Complement 6BQ5 x2, 12AX7 x1 
 

Antique Sound Lab [ ATL ] MG OTL 32 DT  Quote:


 · List Price $700
 · OUTPUT 10mW @ 32ohms
 · Frequency responsible 13Hz--19000Hz + 1dB 
 · Distortion at 3%
 · Noise 64 dB
 · Output Power 18mW @ 120ohms
 · Distortion at 0.50%
 · Frequency responsible 18Hz--19000Hz + 1dB 
 · Noise 77dB
 · Output Power .3W @ 300 ohms
 · Distortion at 1%
 · Noise 80dB
 · Frequency responsible 19Hz--19000Hz + 1dB 
 · Power request 58W 
 

DYI World Audio Designs HD83 (bottom) Quote:


 · Build Kit: approx $400 USD
 · Tube Compliment: Mullard ECL83 valves. 
 · The circuit utilises twin high specification output E/I output transformers that will drive any headphone load from 16 ohms to over 300 ohms depending on how the secondaries are wired up. The Headphone II is a single-ended design with the power pentode wired up in triode configuration for that added purity and is a quiet as a mouse. External dimensions 
 

Mapletree Ear 4/Ear+ Purist HD DIY Kit (review)  Quote:


 Specifications: 
 · Input resistance: 100 kOhms
 · Headphone output impedance: 7 Ohms
 · Sensitivity: 0.3 V for 10 mW output
 · Output power: 100 mW
 · Heavy duty power supply and output transformers for increased power output and extended bass response with low distortion. 
 · Para-feed headphone output circuit drives 32–300 Ohm impedance phones including the Sennheiser HD580/600/650. 
 · All point-to-point wiring. 
 · Tube complement: 2 x 12B4A and 1 x 5751/ECC83/12AX7. 
 · Ultra high-speed HEXFRED recitifier diodes and Alps volume control. 
 · Passive preamp output jacks and dual line input jacks for system patching. 
 

Singlepower PPX3 ,PPX3-6SN7 , MPX3 , Supra , Maestro ZR  (featured review) (review) (featured head-to-head: PPX3 vs. Supra vs. ASL OTL32)  Quote:


 PPX3 Specifications: List: $849 ; Street: $465 (others go up from there)
 · Input impedance: 100K ohm
 · Output Impedance: < 20 Ohms
 · Power supply capacitance: 215 uF
 · Rectification: silicon
 · Power output < 0.5 watts
 · Usable headphone range: 16 to 2000 ohms.
 · Total distortion < 0.1%
 · Volume control: Noble
 · Point-to-Point Wiring (no circuit boards)
 · Vishay RN65 Military Metal Film Resistors
 · 6CG7 Tube Compliment 
 

Darkvoice 336 (the definitive thread) (first and follow-up impressions from a LD II owner) (Custom Edition Darkvoice THA336FM)  Quote:


 Street: reported to now be $350
 · Power:1 watt
 · drive Impedance :32-600 ohms
 · Signal/Noise Ratio: 98dB 
 · frequency: 10Hz-20kHz +/-1dB 
 · Distortion: <=2% 
 · AC Power:220V/50Hz (only)
 · Tube:6N8，6N5(directly replaced to 6080、6AS7) 
 

T.M.S. T-200MKll  Quote:


 Integrated Stereo Power Amplifier (CLASS-A) WITH TUBE HEAD PHONE AMP OUTPUT
 · Street Price (e-Bay) $220 (118GBP) + 38GBP shipping 
 · Output Impedance:4 ohms -8 ohms (Earphone 32 ohms-600 ohms)
 · Power: 6Wx2 (1KHz) (Earphone 600m W)
 · Output tube: EL84x2 
 · Input/Driver tube: 6N3x2 
 · Input Impedance:100K ?
 · Frequency: 10Hz-30KHz (-1 dB )
 · Signal/Noise Ratio: >89dB 
 · Input Sensitivity: 650m V
 · Electrical Dissipation: 38W
 · USB Connection : USB , PC , MP3 ,iPOD 
 · USB Sound Card :16bits full duplex CODEC
 · Supports: Window XP, 2000, ME, 98, 98SE, NT4.0, LINUX... 
 

(links to come)

 MPX Slam 
 FEEL HP200SE 
 Anrun best listen A-6.0LG (???)
 SOHA DIY (???)

 ( sorry, I don't like that hardly anyone provides links when mentioning/recommending. I'll provide them as soon as I have the time to find all the appropriate link for each above )


 What's tough is, you read high praise for all of them ... choices, choices,choices. I don't know what to buy next.

 BTW, just found this great resource of this site .... Head-fi Photo Gallery. So ok ... what's not listed above can be found in the gallery. That's a pretty good list. Would be great to hear and collect some comparisons in one place.


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## Spareribs

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m8o* 
_....Help me decide what my next purchase will be. (under probably $500 but that can be flexible)


 I bought the LD II+ for work, but it was oh so tough to part with it from my home and bring it in here (work)! I decided I need another amp @ home to make me happy! * so.... Do I buy another Little Dot II+ for home, or another tube head-amp? [probably Chinese for the value proposition] * _

 

I have that amp and The Little Dot II+ is a very impressive amp and for the money, it's probably the best value and really tough to beat. I don't think you can do better for price and performance ratio....unless if you end up buying something used for a ridiculous cheap price or make a DIY amp perhaps. But again, the Little Dot II+ is tough to beat for such a cheap price as it performs amazingly.

 Buying another Little Dot II+ would be a good choice however, If your budget is $500, why not get the Little Dot 3 for your home amp? It's more advanced with more power and I imagine that it probably kicks some serious butt. And I think it's only around $350 and it includes a seperate power supply unit I think. For all that, it looks like a killer deal. A steal actually it appears, just like the Little Dot II+.

 For me personally, I would go a little over budget and spend $650 for the Headroom Hybrid Millet tube amp since the reviews are excellent. I imagine it's one of the best Millet amps in the world. However, that Little Dot 3 is very tempting in a way and it looks so cool.


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## GotNoRice

The little dot 3 uses almost the same tubes as the little dot 2+, Chinese 4P1S in the back on both and Mullard EF91 tubes in the front for the LD3, Mullard EF92 tubes for the LD2+. I don’t really know the difference between an EF91 and an EF92.

 I got the impression that the major cost difference between the LD2+ and the LD3 was the LD3's ability to power speakers directly. I went the route of using an external Solid State power amplifier for my speakers; I think you would really need some efficient speakers to work well with the LD3's limited power.

 My only complaint about the LD2+ is that it does seem to kinda run out of gas at higher volumes, even on my 80ohm DT770's; however, I like lots of bass and equalize accordingly, so everything is relative.


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## mrarroyo

For the budget you have established I would suggest an used Musical Fidelity X-Can V3. Occasionally they show up here and in Audiogon for about $300. Then I would do the PinkFloyd mods for about another $50 if you do $100 if someone else does them. I would also recommend building or buying a better power supply (but not the one from Musical Fidelity it is to much money). PinkFloyd has the plans on a nice external power supply which would cost you about $125 to $150 to build.

 A very good option would be an used Mapletree Ear Purist + HD. Used they go for about $475 to $500. Good luck.

 Or if a SS is acceptable look into the Heed CanAmp.


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## braillediver

Money isn't everything but you get what you pay for.

 Cheap's cheap.

 There are probably more problems with the "inexpensive" chinese amps than any other broad range of components. Add to this the expensive shipping and prohibitively expensive shipping for repair and it's better to just buy the right amp to start.

 The Earmax Pro is a time proven nice amp for the money.


 Mitch


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## hugz

Ming Da mc66-ae is a quality amp. Ming da is a good brand, very reputable

 The amp is build well, and sounds fantastic. I seriously dont think you would be unhappy with it


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## fkclo

This is a very capable and great sounding amp by one of the more internationally reputable Chinese brands.

 Very good cost-performance. Used to be compared with amps 2 - 3 times its price.

 f. Lo


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## derekbmn

The Wooaudio amp's are infact made in the U.S. The name is a bit deceiving.


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## Gradofan2

Talk with Drartherwells about most of these... since he's tried most of them, and is in the best position to describe their relative attributes... and seems to have a pretty good sense of judgment in such matters.

 But... be forewarned, he has a distinct preference for the BADA PH12 - perhaps justified... I wouldn't know. I would be tempted to try it however... before, I'd try the LD II+.

 Personally... in this general price range, I (and several others) have found the WooAudio 3 (with the upgraded tubes), or the XCAN v3 with the PinkFloyd mods), tough to beat with Senns (high impedence phones)... and the the XCAN v3 (with mods) great with both Senns and Grados (low impedence phones). There are 2 WA3's with the right tubes on the for sale forum right now at great prices.

 Good luck...


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## Jahn

just as a side note m8o, i see you have a Shiba in your avatar. our Shiba is living large in NYC, enjoying the tunes too!


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## m8o

Thanx for the feedback everyone. Keep'm coming. I'm reading every one intently and researching here and on other boards.

 fkclo, no I hadn't heard of it. Thank you very much for pointing it out.

 Yes, thank you Gradofan2. I've read most (I can't say 'all' since there are so many! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) post by Drartherwells on his evaluations before and after my posting. Great material. 

 Jahn, Lol! Great shot. We actually have 2 Shibas, one 9 months and one 7 years, and a Yorkie 8; the two Shibas are very different with the puppy gregarious to the extreme and my older one timid to the extreme. I adopted the puppy because my older shiba was so much more playful then the yorkie and thought she's like the playmate. ...didn't work out exactly like that as it appears to have had the opposite effect on my older Shiba to some degree. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Where in NYC? We don't primarily live in NYC but we bought an apartment on the edge of the Gramecy area so my wife doesn't have to commute 2 hours or more each way, where she spends 4 nights a week. (we used to live right around there for years many years back) Would be great to bump into you on a dog walk or in a dog run. I've wanted to get to the Madison Square park dogrun for months but it is always raining when we go in weekends with the dogs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (walking 3 dogs in NYC in the rain sux) Hoping this weekend will be dry. ..maybe even go to Central Park with'm...


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## Jahn

ah! we live in Battery Park City, which has three great dog runs, so we usually never leave the neighborhood with Pumpkin. she seems to like just walking up and down the river, but the nicest run is at the North Cove, which houses all of those yachts next to the Winter Garden downtown. the run in Union Square is the busiest, but also the lamest. nice place to see a ton of different breeds tho. The best run in the city imho is the one next to Chelsea Piers, right across the West Side Highway from the entrance to the Piers. That thing is nicer than the Bronx Zoo lol.


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## Firevortex

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *braillediver* 
_Money isn't everything but you get what you pay for.

 Cheap's cheap.

 There are probably more problems with the "inexpensive" chinese amps than any other broad range of components. Add to this the expensive shipping and prohibitively expensive shipping for repair and it's better to just buy the right amp to start.

 The Earmax Pro is a time proven nice amp for the money.


 Mitch_

 

I don’t agree on this. many of the chinese amps are as good as the more expensive counter parts. the build quality and performance are up there. the reduced labor costs, no product development fee, no marketing fee from a more expensive overseas amp reduces the cost of an product over all. this does not always mean a 100% accurate copy but for 95% accurate clone of a amp at 1/3 the price i think its a bargain.

 Some logic could be applied on other commodities. Cheaper does not always = bad.


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## Nugget

Agreed. Cheap isn't always cheap...though it sometimes is. You can get a fantastic amp for the money, while running a slightly higher risk of quality-control problems than you might find from a mainstream retailer. Just know what you're getting into.


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## drarthurwells

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Gradofan2* 
_Talk with Drartherwells about most of these... since he's tried most of them, and is in the best position to describe their relative attributes... and seems to have a pretty good sense of judgment in such matters.

 But... be forewarned, he has a distinct preference for the BADA PH12 - perhaps justified... I wouldn't know. I would be tempted to try it however... before, I'd try the LD II+.

 Personally... in this general price range, I (and several others) have found the WooAudio 3 (with the upgraded tubes), or the XCAN v3 with the PinkFloyd mods), tough to beat with Senns (high impedence phones)... and the the XCAN v3 (with mods) great with both Senns and Grados (low impedence phones). There are 2 WA3's with the right tubes on the for sale forum right now at great prices.

 Good luck..._

 


 Bada PH12 is the best of all amps I have owned.

 Others sound good but I keep going back to the Bada for a palpable tone that is etched in empty space - very natural and realistic.

 Must use good tubes.

 Must not take out tubes until the amp has been turned off for some time - removing tubes when some residual power is in the amp can weaken the mosfets. I turn off and wait two hours or more before removing tubes to change them.

 If you want my issues with amps I have owned other than the Bada send me a PM - I don't want to upset amp makers with a public description of their faults.


 The MC66AE is a bargain as is the G&W T2.6F. The Xian Sheng 708B is close to these and is cheaper. Each has its special qualities and issues.

 I have thought of Singlepower and am looking for aused MPX Slam (to get my money out of it when I sell it - if I do) but am not real enthusiastic about the OTL design with the AKG K701 HP (the best of all presently produced HPs).


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## Mazuki

I think the FEEL HP200SE is the best looking Chinese amp. But you should prolly buy a G&W or a Darkvoice?


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## Spareribs

Yeah, I agree. Cheap can be great and impressive. Before you buy a cheap amp, just read the reviews. The cheap Little Dot 2+ has impressive build quality. Very sturdy and sounds wonderful. I think it's somewhat mind boggling in a way how the dollar can be powerful for China. I do plan on getting a more expensive amp though in the future so I won't always buy cheap. Spending $600-$1500 for an amp is great too as long as it's a good one and many of those higher priced amps are good and worth the investment.

 That said, the nice thing about a great cheap amp is that you can use it in the office or even use it at your vacation house (if you have one) and not really worry about it because it's cheap. Or get one for the guest room and impress your guest if he/she is a music lover. 

 China is a different economy and the dollars can be great and go a long way, just like in Mexico where I can get absolutely incredible food, beer and women for a fraction of the price in the U.S.....but that's another topic.


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## m8o

Some new names of amps. Much Thanx. Still reading. 

 ...then I have to decide which $200+ cans to buy as all I have sound like I'm listening through a curtain. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ...DT880? 
 K701? (but I have a big head and I read they're kinda 'small') 
 K340? (used, and modified?) 
 HD6xx? 
 Grado RS-# (no doubt, headphones I know the least about)
 ....???

 ...but I digress! Please ignore. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 P.S. I kinda like the idea of rolling tubes, so beginning to think along those lines. That's something I'd never consider with my Audio Research Classic 150 monoblocks...


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## m8o

Whatever I decide, I better make it soon. The value proposition of the DT880 was something I couldn't pass up ... I just bought two of them from a local place through eBay, one for home and one for work. Since it's close, they should be here tomorrow or Monday. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I NEED ANOTHER AMP!

 P.S. What spurred this on was I really am not loving the K477 + LDII+ combination I'm using @ work. I know the can's aren't "the greatest", but I also don't think the LDII+ is well suited to the very low impedance of those cans. So I needed to make a change, for the better I'm sure you'll agree.


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## randytsuch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m8o* 
_Whatever I decide, I better make it soon. The value proposition of the DT880 was something I couldn't pass up ... I just bought two of them from a local place through eBay, one for home and one for work. Since it's close, they should be here tomorrow or Monday. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I NEED ANOTHER AMP!

 P.S. What spurred this on was I really am not loving the K477 + LDII+ combination I'm using @ work. I know the can's aren't "the greatest", but I also don't think the LDII+ is well suited to the very low impedance of those cans. So I needed to make a change, for the better I'm sure you'll agree._

 

The Beyerdynamic website shows the DT-880 impedance as 250 ohms, and I have seem 880's referred to as high impedance cans here, so I am not sure why you are calling them a low impedance can.

 BTW, if it was me, since you already have the LDII+, why not see how that combination sounds before trying something else?

 Randy


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## m8o

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *randytsuch* 
_The Beyerdynamic website shows the DT-880 impedance as 250 ohms, and I have seem 880's referred to as high impedance cans here, so I am not sure why you are calling them a low impedance can._

 

 sorry. LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You must not have understood what I meant ... how I started the next paragraph was, "What spurred this on was I really am not loving the K477 + LDII+ combination I'm using @ work...". Meaning the Senn K477 cans which I think are about 30 ohms, are too low for the LDII+. That mandated I purchase some great higher impedance hi-perf cans sooner then the later I was planning on. I liked that the DT880 is kind of 'mid-impedance'. I already know the LDII+ also doesn't drive my other headphones @ the other end of the impedance specturm, my AKG 240 600 ohms, as well as I'd wish. It could use an "11" on the loudness-dial. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're 100% correct regarding taking some time. I'm eager for the 880s to arrive so I can listen all of next week with the LDII+ while I work. ...just planning ahead for the amp that I need @ home. LD III+ is actually a serious consideration of mine among all discussed. I do however hope to be pulling the trigger on something @ the end of next week.


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## Geoff Rymer

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *hugz* 
_Ming Da mc66-ae is a quality amp. Ming da is a good brand, very reputable

 The amp is build well, and sounds fantastic. I seriously dont think you would be unhappy with it_

 

Seconded. It's a nice bit of kit and really great value.


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## randytsuch

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m8o* 
_sorry. LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You must not have understood what I meant ... how I started the next paragraph was, "What spurred this on was I really am not loving the K477 + LDII+ combination I'm using @ work...". Meaning the Senn K477 cans which I think are about 30 ohms, are too low for the LDII+. That mandated I purchase some great higher impedance hi-perf cans sooner then the later I was planning on. I liked that the DT880 is kind of 'mid-impedance'. I already know the LDII+ also doesn't drive my other headphones @ the other end of the impedance specturm, my AKG 240 600 ohms, as well as I'd wish. It could use an "11" on the loudness-dial. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're 100% correct regarding taking some time. I'm eager for the 880s to arrive so I can listen all of next week with the LDII+ while I work. ...just planning ahead for the amp that I need @ home. LD III+ is actually a serious consideration of mine among all discussed. I do however hope to be pulling the trigger on something @ the end of next week._

 

I am the one who should be sorry, I read your post again, and see where I misunderstood what you were saying.

 Good luck with whatever you choose.

 BTW, I am thinking about buying a tube amp for my K340's and DT880's, and have been considering the darkvoice 336. It will probably be that, or build something myself.

 Randy


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## m8o

EDIT: I decided to maintain the 2nd message in this thread with all my updates & additions to the list.


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## Nugget

This is fairly OT, but anybody know what sort of shipping costs I'm looking at from Pacific Valve? I've spec'd a lot of units from China, but the shipping costs kill the competitive advantage.


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## drarthurwells

Bada PH 12 from China is $425 total - air freight in two days.

 Comes with Chinese tubes - have to change these - see my Bada link in my signature below.


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## FooTemps

I've gotta give props for m8o for gathering together a lot of info, could be potentially useful for newbies.

 Wanted to say that earlier but my internet has been going in and out recently, but better late than never right?

 also, drarthurwells: Which amps that you've used can double as preamps? I know that the cayin and LDIII+ can be used as preamps. But I'm curious as to any other suggestions since you've seen so many of the chinese amps already.


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## Jbucla2005

I really like my ASL MG Head OTL with Senn 650's, and it's pretty good as a pre-amp in transformer mode. I had an LD2 and liked it with Grados (and as a pre-amp also.) Neither of these amps worked well with my DT880s, though, which is paired up with a vintage Luxman integrated amp primarily designed for speakers. The DT880s need the power and refinement of this amp. Since you got the DT-880's, you will have to find the best match for it, and it is picky about amplification.


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## m8o

Foo, thanx & my pleasure. Hopefully the collection of material will be done in a few more sessions by the weekend. Then, onto my next task, to compile all the directly heated triode info I can find into one post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Jbucla, I could'a used that opinion about a 1/2 week ago before pulling the trigger. [LOL] I actually bought two, one for work and one for home ... so buying a matching amp is very important ... yes. I do think the DT880 will match my old [ok, mid-aged] and tired/worn ears well once they break in ; very sharp edge'd even through the LD II+ right now. Should have nice brightness with smoothness after a few dozen hours. I read the LD II+ requires something like 100 to perhaps 500(really...that's what was said) hours to really break in. I -do- however wish they could take over 100mW of power. I do want more. But I'm going to reserve judgement. 

 I am loving the idea of DHT at affordable prices so the LD III+ with the higher power Mullard driver -- so I can use the amp as a add-hoc 2-ch pre-amp to my Klipsch La Scalas driven by a Butler Hybrid amp which usually serves duty as the mains of the 5-ch system -- is a front-runner right now. So that's the thinking at this time.


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## Jbucla2005

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m8o* 
_Foo, thanx & my pleasure. Hopefully the collection of material will be done in a few more sessions by the weekend. Then, onto my next task, to compile all the directly heated triode info I can find into one post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 Jbucla, I could'a used that opinion about a 1/2 week ago before pulling the trigger. [LOL] I actually bought two, one for work and one for home ... so buying a matching amp is very important ... yes. I do think the DT880 will match my old [ok, mid-aged] and tired/worn ears well once they break in ; very sharp edge'd even through the LD II+ right now. Should have nice brightness with smoothness after a few dozen hours. I read the LD II+ requires something like 100 to perhaps 500(really...that's what was said) hours to really break in. I -do- however wish they could take over 100mW of power. I do want more. But I'm going to reserve judgement. 

 I am loving the idea of DHT at affordable prices so the LD III+ with the higher power Mullard driver -- so I can use the amp as a add-hoc 2-ch pre-amp to my Klipsch La Scalas driven by a Butler Hybrid amp which usually serves duty as the mains of the 5-ch system -- is a front-runner right now. So that's the thinking at this time._

 

My problem precisely with the DT-880's and LD2 was brightness and harshness. The LD2+ is probably better, but it seems like you are echoing my own complaints. I actually reserve my DT-880's for listening with vinyl and my mellow sounding tube Luxman, and even then I prefer my HD-650's/MG Head combo by a small margin.


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## m8o

I definitely like the LD II+ and DT880 much MUCH better the first few hours after the LD II+ is turned on then after having it on for 8 hours (where I might only be listening for 2 - 3 hours total throughout the day, so it's not the ears getting worn 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) I'm able to happily listen @ work at low volume while the amp's still kewl, with the amp dial on 3. By the end of the day the character of the sound is much darker with ambiance more muted then I'd like; I have to turn the dial to 5. I wonder if that's "heat-soak" of the other LD II+ components. But again, it's still early is the usage life of both of them; have to see how it all evolves.


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## daveDerek

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m8o* 
_LD III+ is actually a serious consideration of mine among all discussed. I do however hope to be pulling the trigger on something @ the end of next week._

 

please let us know what you find if you get this amp. aside from it's nice looks, and that, with it's slotted covers and outboard pwr supply, it reportedly runs much cooler than the ld2, it has a feature that may make it really versatile with it's ability to impedance match. this should allow you to run anything from grados to your high impedance akgs and still have a good match. 
 interesting that the ld2 changes so much if you run it for protracted periods. i wonder if the above mentioned differences make the ld3 more stable.


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## m8o

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Jbucla2005* 
_My problem precisely with the DT-880's and LD2 was brightness and harshness._

 

 I've beeen listening to the combo all week, and have an observation. I wonder if what you were hearing was overloading of the LD input? 

 I notice that at certain times on certain tracks, when there is a wide spectrum of high energy to the music, I get an almost harsh long playing static. I find turning down the volume of the iPod through a dock [line-out] removes it, but not immediately; as if the LD II+ got "charged" and needs time to "dis-charge". I've re-played those sections where this occured with the volume turned down, and it definitely smoothed out sound. The line-out of the iPod has about 30 levels. So I usually listen from 2 to 9 clicks down from max output. So just a thought. 

 I'll have to e-mail David to find out what the input sensetivity of the amp is; my thinking is it's kinda low.


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## dcheming

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Nugget* 
_This is fairly OT, but anybody know what sort of shipping costs I'm looking at from Pacific Valve? I've spec'd a lot of units from China, but the shipping costs kill the competitive advantage._

 

I just ordered a Xiansheng 708B last week from Pacific Valve and the shipping came out to $23.50. Unfortunately it's backordered.


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## Nugget

Yeah, that's why I picked one up off Ebay for $190 shipped. Not the best Ebay price, but $35 cheaper and actually available is a decent combo.


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## dcheming

Yeah that is a good combo! I'm going to wait a little bit for them to contact me with an ETA. If it turns out to be weeks I will probably go with something else. At this point I'm thinking that it would probably be better in the long run just get a better amp in the first place. I need one with a pre out and would prefer exposed tubes. The WooAudio 3 looks like a great value and it uses common tubes. I like the looks better too. They are made here as well aren't they?


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## m8o

After much contemplation and internal deliberation, it is decided. The Little Dot III+ is officially on order! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I will point out, not only for the headphone capability, impedance detecting capability, and triode/pentode selectability, but I can't wait to also connect them to my Klipsch LaScalas! .... and then to compare them to the Butler 150W/ch x5 tube/ss hybrid driving them today, as well as some Heresy's in the back of the room now. Won't that be a kick in the pants if the LD III+ gets reasonably loud and sounds sweeter at those levels. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I am after all getting my bass from two M&K subs, so the LaScalas don't have a lot of bass to push, where power is really needed.


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## Black Stuart

This post is maybe a little late but here goes.

 The World Audio Designs MK1 is what I have. The only difference with the MK 11 is that they made it look prettier and altered the layout inside.

 This is a SET - single ended design using a pair of Mullard ECL83 valves. In each envelope is a signal triode and a small power pentode. 

 When I first bought the amp s/hand it had been built virtually standard - it was OK. There are only two caps in the signal path and I changed these out for Dynamicaps. I left the big PSU caps 470uF x 450V as to change them for appreciable difference meant spending real money. I used a Rifa PEH 100uF x 450V and changed out most of the other caps for Elna Silmics which I really rate and I shunted the Alps pot. 

 This now is a first class h/amp and no it is'nt slow and the bass is anything but lumpy. The Mullard valve is a beauty and with any luck I should have a Bada PH 12 in my hands within two days - it will have to be good to better the WAD valve amp.

 Part of the reason in buying the Bada is that it is a hybrid amp and I want to hear what this is like against a pure valve SET design.

 Stuart


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## sonance

Back in the bad old days, tube amps were considered better suited for higher impedance headphones compared to lower impedance headphones because of the differences in regards to low voltage / high current as opposed to high voltage / low current. Of course nowadays even tubed headphone amps can put out so much power that they'll work well either kind, but differences do exist - Singlepowers SLAM series for example uses different (higher output) output tubes compared to the non-SLAMs precisely for this reason. Even though there are fewer concerns in regards to synergy with headphones, it is still something to think about - best amp for the phones you plan to use them with.


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## pchong

Quick question: any of these Chinese manufacturers make a Stax electrostatic amp?


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## m8o

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m8o* 
_After much contemplation and internal deliberation, it is decided. The Little Dot III+ is officially on order! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

 Holy Cow. I ordered it on the 17th, paid the 19th, and here it is the 25th and it arrived all the way from China! I had been talking to David a few days earlier then the 17th about it, so I have to assume he got the ball rolling on constructing the LD III+ before I decided to pull the trigger; I still want to believe they're 'really' made to order. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But wow, that was quick!

 Let the Burn-in Begin! Full write-up to be done in a few weeks.

 One observation already. The 1st time I started it up it detected my DT880 phones as 32 ohms. So I listened a little, and the amp had the same 'level' as the LD II+ I just unplugged; sounded almost identical. After a few minutes I said, ok let's make sure this impedance auto-detection works. Turned it off and on. The hum scared me, but that's obviously the tone put through the phones to detect the current draw. The correct 300 ohm light lit up this time. And the amplitude of the music in the phones was noticably louder. ...ah, good, it's working! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And man, this baby has a good deal more gain then the LD II+. I kinda think it could blow the DT880 if I turned all input and output levels to max. Sound is also a -good- deal more crisp without being 'sharp' as with the LD II+ before it got many hours of burn on it. That's with only minutes of burn-in on the LD III+. 

 edit: I gotta add. Since it has so much more gain, listening @ the same 'loud' level through the DT880 yields a noticably cleaner signal. Also, listening only in Triode mode so far. 

 ....I gotta pretty good feeling I'm gunna be really, * REALLY happy* for years to come with this... 

 gunna hook it up and drive the Klipsch La Scalas with it in a few hours.


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## Nugget

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *m8o* 
_....I gotta pretty good feeling I'm gunna be really, * REALLY happy* for years to come with this..._

 

Come now, haven't you spent enough time on Head-Fi to know that _months_ of satisfaction with your gear, before upgraditis kicks in, is unheard-of? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Seriously, congrats on a satisfying purchase. The LD3 is a sweet-looking piece of kit, and if David can pull off the LD2+ at $175 I can only imagine what he can do for twice that.

 Incidentally, I'd nominate this thread for a sticky if I had anything resembling nominating power. It's been invaluable for me in choosing my first amp, and no doubt many others. Thanks for the time and effort, it's much appreciated!


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## m8o

Update: I haven't been good at notifying of updates. I remembered today...

 Added G&W T-2A, Darkvoice 336, T.M.S. T-200MKll


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## m8o

updated: added WooAudio3 linx


----------



## Dept_of_Alchemy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Firevortex* 
_I don’t agree on this. many of the chinese amps are as good as the more expensive counter parts. the build quality and performance are up there. the reduced labor costs, no product development fee, no marketing fee from a more expensive overseas amp reduces the cost of an product over all. this does not always mean a 100% accurate copy but for 95% accurate clone of a amp at 1/3 the price i think its a bargain.

 Some logic could be applied on other commodities. Cheaper does not always = bad._

 

The LDII did have some QC problems with an early group buy and the LDII+ with some power tube problems though... so at least as far as I know, some Chinese amps are not perfect. What's important is that at least the customer support generally speaking has been superb, and that's very reassuring!


----------



## ammatos

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *derekbmn* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The Wooaudio amp's are infact made in the U.S. The name is a bit deceiving._

 

More specifically, they're from New York City, USA
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Link: Woo Audio High-End Audio Amplifiers - The Sound of Excellence

 best,

 a.


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## ammatos

Hi M80,

 BTW, is it "M80", as in "Cherry Bomb"???

 Quote:
 Originally Posted by *m8o* 
_After much contemplation and internal deliberation, it is decided. The Little Dot III+ is officially on order! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




_

 You state that you got a "Little Dot III+", but the Little-Tube site still list the "The Little Dot III". So have you mistakenly added the plus sign, or is it that they haven't update their listing???

 {Edit: Never mind, just noted that the III+ is an older/discontinued model.} I love their model numbering scheme, but hey it's their company 

 Sorry, you may have covered this, but I started at the end of the thread. But will be reading it in its entirety, as I am most interested in this toy.

 thanXs,

 a.


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